453 parakeet, 292 sous_chef, 4 whisper-cpp-large episodes.

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+[0:12] Oh you done me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:35] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. This is Dave Arnold with Cooking Issues, a show where you call in and talk to us about your cooking issues. Uh every Tuesday from uh 12 to 1245. Uh today's show is brought to you by the Barter House. The Barter House is a proud supporter of Heritage Radio Network.
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+[0:53] The Barter House works with family vineyards and small bottlers from around the world to bring only the finest and most flavorful wines to the market. To learn more about Barter Hearts uh Butterhouse, please visit them at WW The Barter House.com or call them at 917-463-3076. I've actually never had the Barter House. Uh we're here with uh Nastasha Lopez from CookingIssues.com and uh AJ E to one of our uh one of the people who was our interns, he's now graduated. Um so you guys ever had this wine before?
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+[1:21] No. No? No. No. Alright.
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+[1:22] So uh we're just gonna open it on air and and try it. Uh while I'm doing that, I was like, there you go. Uh we're gonna drink this. It's kinda warm. It's a white wine here, it's a Chardonnay uh from New Zealand.
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+[1:35] And uh we're gonna it's kinda warm. We're gonna drink it Cesare Chef Chesare Casella style, which means with ice. So I'm gonna pour this out here. And uh while we're trying this wine to tell you how uh delicious it is, um I'm gonna tell you the call-in number to call in and ask us any kind of question you want. 718 497-2128.
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+[1:55] And so if you have any cooking issues, uh please call and we'll try to uh fix them or at least talk about them. Now uh just to give you a little background what uh we do is uh we're at the French Culinary Institute which is a cooking school in uh downtown New York and I run the technology department which means uh any kind of new technique or ingredient uh we deal typically with with chefs but basically anything kind of new or off the wall or kind of weird or any sort of strange problems uh we deal with those and we we solve them for uh various chefs we work with a lot of great chefs around the city uh so you know if you have any questions about sous vide cooking or low temperature cooking which is a you know kind of a new style of cooking that's making a lot of waves in restaurants right now or any kind of new new age thickener new ingredient or if you want to rant because you hate these things and want to engage me in an argument on the air we appreciate that I love rants. I love uh I I especially love ignorant people who don't know what they're talking about calling and saying things about how I use a bunch of chemicals. So if you want to do that I encourage you to call up and uh and we'll have this discussion on air uh and with a with a lot less profanity than you would if you came to my lab and had this conversation. Uh but anyway so let's uh let's first things first let's try out this uh this uh delicious uh this delicious wine uh we're we're drinking uh Kerner Estate uh 2008 uh Chardonnay uh from New Zealand.
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+[3:15] Hold on what do you think guys? Hmm yeah yeah it feels old school like a working lunch having wine at lunch. People don't do that anymore. You know when you visit Europe they still have wine at lunch and then we like Americans drink wine like we do at dinner when we're at the lunch and then we're we're blasted for the rest of the afternoon. Unless actually what happens is in Europe, nothing gets done after lunch, which is I think actually the more accurate thing.
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+[3:37] I think nothing in Europe happens after lunch. But uh but it's kind of pleasant, right? We're sitting here in in Brooklyn in the studio. And uh anyways. So while we're waiting for someone to actually pick up the phone and call.
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+[3:49] Um, and if you call and it gets really uh it gets problematic, like you know, there's yelling and stuff. Nastasha is the hammer, just as she is on on our website, www.cookingissues.com, where when things get out of hand, Nastasha, who brings her her uh her fantastic mix of Russian and and Spanish, brings the hammer down on people. Uh she loves doing that, so please call and get out of hand. We really appreciate it. Nastasha hasn't been able to uh to crush someone recently, so she she's she's looking forward to it.
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+[4:22] Um so anyway, so what do you what do you think? What do you what do you guys uh want to want to talk about uh before we before we get any callers here? You want to maybe you should talk about your rotive app, your new rota vap. Yeah, I saw the post go up last night. Oh, yeah, okay.
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+[4:33] So here's the deal. For for those of you who don't know what a rotor vap is, which is I'm guessing 99.99% of you. What it is is it's a piece of distillation equipment um which allows us to do distillations to make booze basically illegally because you can't distill here in in the US um you know without a distiller's license, it's huge pain in the butt. But it allows us to do distillations at a very low temperature. And what's what's great about that is it is the flavors are the purest cleanest flavors that you could possibly imagine.
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+[5:04] Am I right? You you guys drink it, drink it all the time. I mean, it's not it's not something that we we can get flavors. I mean, commercial beverages are delicious, but it's just we get different kinds of flavors in the roto vap, and they're kind of hard to commercialize because a lot of times they don't last very long or they're difficult to produce, or or they they would be expensive. Anyway, we've been using uh th this equipment, uh of course, like anything else, is exp is super expensive.
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+[5:24] It's many, many thousands of dollars. And uh, you know, I'd used uh um kind of a beat up old version that was older than most of my students. In fact, uh we got off eBay for you know, I got a few bay, I should say, for for almost nothing and and kind of crabbed it together and got it to work really well. Well, the corporation that makes them Bukey, the first name in rotary evaporation. Bukey no, Bukey came to visit us and um they they make the kind of the butt kicking ones and they uh because we were gonna go on this show, the Jimmy Fallon show, and and I told them I didn't wanna I didn't want to have one of their crappy ones from the you know early eighties being the one that everyone saw and so they brought a uh a really nice new rotary evaporator and they they let us keep it, which is fantastic.
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+[6:05] And so the guy sitting next to me, AJ, who spent many, many hours flying our old, you know, kind of beat up roto vap is quite jealous because he's no longer working with us at the school and now it's so much easier to do all of our work, right? That's true. Yeah, yeah. What are the advantages of of verto vaping? Well, all right, well, the the disadvantages are it's illegal, right?
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+[6:26] So th the you know the the reason why you don't see it uh uh uh in a lot of restaurants here is because the chefs are are confined to using it making uh non-alcoholic drinks. If they make an alcoholic drink and try and serve it in their restaurant or their bar, they're endangering their liquor license. So the consequently they don't do it. And the the stuff that's done with water just isn't as exciting enough, especially if you've ever done liquor. It's just not exciting enough to warrant, you know, an eighteen thousand dollar or you know, depends on could be you could get one for five grand, but to all that money, space and training just to do to water-based things, so that's why you don't see it a lot here in the States, although uh there are a couple restaurants in Chicago that use them.
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+[7:02] Um but it allows you to separate flavors in a way that you know you've never done before. So we do, you know, uh as you guys both know, because I've forced you to do it many times, we'll we'll do a chocolate liquor that has uh you know just cocoa, you know, the flavor of chocolate with none of the bitterness because the bitterness doesn't distill just a Roman flavor does. So you have this like chocolate chocolate uh booze with no sugar in it that's you know delicious, and or we'll do uh, you know, very spicy peppers, habanero peppers that that have no spice in them. They're just you know the fl floral, amazing floral aroma. Uh you know, this kind of stuff.
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+[7:34] Or f fresh herbs are kind of my favorite because they're just impossible to re- redo any other way. So, you know, something like uh, although uh Nastasha doesn't like it, you know, cilantro. You know for the by the way, Nastasha who's here, she I assume she's gonna chime in at some point with some of her likes and dislikes, which are the most preposterous dislikes in the she it turns out this lady who's in the food business now works with me who likes who likes everything. I basically like everything in the world with the exception of Nato, which is you know disgusting. The Japanese fermented soybean product natto, which is yeah, I I don't think even in Japan they like it.
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+[8:07] I think they just pretend that they like it because it's supposed to be good for it. But Nastasha hates every damn thing that you're like, oh, I like I like delicious things. She's like, No, I I don't like that. I hate that. Whatever it is, if it's delicious, I hate it.
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+[8:19] So speaking of uh Oh, Nastasha pounded that wine. Jeez. We're talking for like 10 minutes. You did not get a half pour. Come on now.
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+[8:31] She yeah, she she obliterated that wine. Just you know, mutilate it. Anyway. So it's good though. Yeah.
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+[8:39] Well, apparently you think it's good. You drank the whole damn glass. Uh here. Here, uh AJ, pour some pour some more. Yeah.
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+[8:46] Anyway. Um so the uh so while I'm waiting for someone to call in, uh, I will I will that now talk about, because we you know nothing better to do, I'll talk about some of my my pet peeves. So uh related to cooking by my pet peeves. So like one thing I uh I hate, and uh if you know I've been on this network a couple of times on other shows, and I always get to say how much I hate the word molecular gastronomy. Well, here's my opportunity to say it right now, and and how however long and however angry I want to say, do not use the term molecular gastronomy.
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+[9:19] You know, if any of you out there have have heard the term before molecular gastronomy, you do the best to erase this term from from your memory. It's it's awful term. I'll give you some reasons why. Uh one, it's meaningless, it has no meaning. Uh it what does it mean, molecular gastronomy?
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+[9:35] What the hell f first of all, gastronomy is the worst word. It sounds good in French, you know, gastronomy, but sounds like g gas and trotronomy, gastronomy sounds like gastropod, sounds like you have gas, sounds like you're gonna get gas if you eat it, gas molecular sounds disgusting, doesn't sound delicious. So I don't you know I don't really see the point in tagging something you're gonna eat with a term that sounds inherently inherently disgusting. And remember, this term is pioneered by the by this guy in France named Hervé Tis. Ervétisse, who uh as I said, you know, I was on the you know a show here last week, I said, you know, I won't say anything negative about him except for he's a uh uh a charlatan and and what you know and a farce.
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+[10:17] And so like the the thing is is that he thinks molecular gastronomy sounds good because he doesn't really speak English that well, right? He he thinks in English the word food sounds gross, right? Right. No, no seriously, he's like food sounds disgusting, food. Maybe for a Frenchie, but you know, I like food.
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+[10:34] Do you like food? Yes. Food is delicious. Yeah. Anyway, so uh so it's it's a term that has no meaning, it sounds disgusting.
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+[10:42] Uh it's basically a marketing term for this guy in France, Air Vatice. None of the chefs who are being described as doing molecular gastronomy want to be described as doing molecular gastronomy. And it puts you in a pigeonhole that I think is is wrong. First of all, either all of us are manipulating molecules, in which case a guy cooking over a campfire is doing molecular gastronomy, or none of us are manipulating uh, you know, molecules. I don't know anyone with a like a scanning tunneling microscope who's sitting there like adjusting individual molecules in the pie that they're making.
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+[11:10] I know at least one. So but you but you you know you get my point. It's kind of it's it's it's pointless. And um it's also I think what most people don't realize is that these new technologies are being used in restaurants all the time. It's just they don't know it because you know they're not doing the kind of food that is labeled as molecular gastronomy.
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+[11:29] So, you know, uh people assume that if you're using new technologies for cooking that you're actually you know making crazy food, making things that are wacky, making, you know, th and we do do that too, just because you know, we yeah, I mean we do, but you know, a lot of the best applications of these things, you would never know that uh that a technology was used uh to do it. So we serve you a delicious uh drink that's you know uh strawberry flavored and it's crystal clear and it's got you know amazing effervescence and the liquor tastes you know super fresh, unlike anything you've ever had before, and you're not thinking, hey, hey, this you know, these people used, you know, $30,000 worth of equipment and spent like five hours and did like all these new techniques. You're like this is a delicious drink. And I think those are the applications that are uh that are best, right? I mean, you don't necessarily want to know.
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+[12:18] So I I tend not to do things like spray foams all all all into everything, which I think everyone's like, oh, you do foams, yeah, no, no, foams, foam. But and you know, I think that's kind of the you know, it being able to make a good foam is uh kind of you know it's an important you know skill to have but it's not uh you know I very rarely do it you know only when it's kind of when it's called for uh and you know foams are nothing nothing new either right I mean foams uh take for instance uh the head on a beer that's a pretty old foam. I think what people are doing is just trying to take the weirdest thing that they can find and turn it into a foam and then gastronomy. Yeah right gastronomy yeah no but uh I think that's right. I think and then and that's the other problem is some people who actually kind of like the term I mean the the the danger of this with with as with any technique is that someone will take the techniques and just do something just to do it and the stuff doesn't taste very good but then everyone who uses the techniques get paint gets painted with those with that brush.
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+[13:13] And I think that you know that's the main problem. So you don't want to they need the marriage of technique and flavor. Yeah I mean look you know it's it's like saying uh you're only supposed to use these techniques to try and make flavors better or to try and achieve some sort of effect that you like. If you're you know if you're if you're using it just to use it then that's that's not a good that's not a good application. It's like if I handed someone a frying pan, you know they could make really crappy food with that frying pan.
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+[13:38] You know if I hand someone a centrifuge they can make really crappy food with that centrifuge. Centrifuge is something that separates things based on their density. And only use them when they actually make the food better, not when they're just a silly gimmick. Although again, occasionally we will fall into the silly game. Just because, you know, it's my job.
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+[14:06] But we try not to. Um, so pretty soon we're gonna be going out uh on our first break. So uh in advance of that, let's have a cheers to uh the barter house, uh a proud supporter of Heritage Radio Network. Don't forget to call in with your questions at 718-497-2128 uh to ask us anything you want about new cooking techniques, old cooking techniques, uh anything you want. Uh you were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network.
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+[14:36] Yeah, yeah. When the body gets up from every time and you need some love from fascination when the body won't do what you want to do. And you don't do it on the know what you threw. What's that? What's that?
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+[15:08] You need some love when you test an easy What's that? What's that? Payback! Gotta go to Chato Gotta go to Chau Gotta go to Chico Gotta go to tension. And you've got a heat.
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+[15:51] Take off that pressure. Check off that break that eat. Take off that bread that the man. Welcome back. You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network.
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+[16:14] To call in and ask us a question, call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So before we left, we were talking about the fact that new techniques and technologies in the kitchen are used for a uh variety of reasons, and some of the best applications of them are actually ones where you wouldn't necessarily know anything is going on. I think one of the you know best things, uh best, you know, uh examples of that is is French fries. We did uh a many, many tests.
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+[16:43] How many did we do? A lot. About twenty. That was twenty on that one day. Yeah.
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+[16:48] We've done on that second day. We've done like probably 60, 60 in change, which is not a lot for you know for a commercial, you know, place like McDonald's who does, you know, thousands of tests, but you know, 60, 70 tests, making my interns do French fries over and over again again is kind of a pain in the butt. But what it's about is it shows a mindset. The problem is French fries are problematic, right? Here's why.
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+[17:10] You want French fries to be uh one, you want the outside to be crispy and crunchy, right? Uh you also want it to be not you it doesn't matter how much oil is actually in it, you just don't want it to taste greasy, right? So you want something that's crunchy, not greasy. You want the potato to actually taste like a potato, potato flavor, and have an actual potato texture that's nice on the inside. Not uh, not uh you know, not overcooked, not undercooked, not hollow.
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+[17:34] You want also the French fry to stay good when it's cold. I've repeatedly said a monkey can make a French fry that's good when it's hot. Same thing as a donut. A donut is a difficult problem. Any idiot can make a donut that's hot that tastes good because it's delicious when it's hot.
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+[17:50] The challenge is to make a fried food, donuts or french fries, whatever, that is good when it is cold. It's especially true with donuts because they're supposed to keep. But French fries, our task was I want the texture on the outside and the texture on the inside to be good right out of the fryer and to stay delicious even when that that thing is cold. And so uh, you know, m many of you out there who make French fries are familiar with the uh with the double frying technique, which is uh, you know, it's attributed to the uh to the Belgians, right? It's a double double fry technique where you fry once to to form the crust and to cook it, and then you fry it a second time to to make it crispy again.
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+[18:25] Uh this is kind of you know, that's like kindergarten French fry, as far as we're concerned. Like, you know, that's like that's like you know, not necessarily the you know the best way to do it. The best way to do it is to do an initial blanching step where you you kill the enzymes and cook the potatoes in a blanching step in water, salted water, which also flavors the potato, right? And then typically the old ways we would then dehydrate them a little bit, which is allows for the crust to get uh more uh it gets rid of some of the water, which means that it stays crunchier longer, then fry it once and then fry it twice again. So it's you know a several step process.
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+[18:57] But these make delicious fries. But the problem is with the drying step and with the blanching, a lot of times we would get hollow fries, or they wouldn't be consistent. So we we tried to figure out the absolute best best best way to do it. And uh, you know, do how long do you blanch it? You know, Heston Blumenthal, the famous chef in England says you should blanch for a long time till they till they break apart.
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+[19:14] So we ran all these tests. And if you go to cookingIssues.com, you can see what we ended up with. We ended up soaking the fries in an enzyme, a natural enzyme, not some sort of GMO nonsense, but uh an enzyme called uh pectinex SPL that you can also get from cookingissues.com. And what it does is it breaks down the pectin on the outside of the French fries and allows for the starch on the outside of the fry to swell very quickly and form a really nice crust. Uh it also means you don't really have to dry the fries after you blanch it.
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+[19:40] So you you soak it in this enzyme for a couple hours, blanch it in boiling salted water to make it taste delicious and get cooked, and three times uh two times fry after that. And you you have arguably the most delicious French fries uh that uh uh I've ever had. Uh what do you guys think about those fries? Uh they're delicious. I don't even like fries.
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+[19:57] Yeah. Okay, uh so it looks like we have a caller, right? We have a call? All right. Hello?
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+[20:03] Hi, how are you? All right. I'm good. Um I was wondering what the benefits are of uh chilling a drink over dry ice. Uh, okay.
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+[20:11] So this is an excellent question. Who am I speaking to? Uh this is Carolyn. I'm from Massachusetts. Massachusetts, all right.
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+[20:16] Well, first of all, uh, here's the things about about dry ice. Dry ice, uh, for those of you not in the know is solid carbon dioxide, right? It's a lot easier to obtain, a lot easier to store than liquid nitrogen, which is actually our preferred chilling uh method for for drinks and for many things. But hard to carry over a bridge. Very hard to carry over a bridge.
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+[20:35] I've done it. Uh so the uh dry ice you can get usually from an ice supply house or sometimes from welding supply shops. And uh when you chill a drink with dry ice, right, there's a couple problems. You don't want to serve someone little chips of dry ice because that's bad. Uh it's cold, it can burn your tongue.
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+[20:53] Uh it's it's you know it's not very good. So one of the one of the pitfalls is that you you don't want little pieces of dry ice. Now, a friend of mine, uh Tony Cigliaro in at Bar 69 Colbrook Row was making daiquaries where he dr put chunks of dry ice in a blender with a daiquiri mix and blended them. And they I have to say he got them to come out quite well, although the technique makes me a little bit nervous. The the other thing about it though is if you let it chill long enough, the drink is going to become slightly carbonated.
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+[21:18] So I wouldn't chill a drink with dry ice that uh you didn't want to have a little bit of bubbles in it because it's gonna get a little bit of bubbles in it when it when you have dry ice. But here's a really good technique for dry ice. Oh, uh and one of the prime advantages, obviously, is you make the drink, you get the dilution exactly the way you want it with water for a pre-batch drink at a party, let's say, right? And then now the dilution is perfect. Now your only job is to get it cold.
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+[21:40] Now you can do that in the freezer by putting it in the freezer, but if you put it in the freezer, then it's hard to have it out and it's gonna turn to crap while it's sitting on your counter because your guests are morons and they don't drink fast enough, right? Right? And so it's sitting there on the counter getting warm, and you're sitting there and you're you're you're you're you're pinching yourself and you know, kicking yourself and all this because you know the drink's getting too damn warm and there's not anything you can do about it, right? And that's kind of a torture, right? Am I right?
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+[22:03] Right. Like the party I went to last week. Yeah. Oh awful, yeah, right. And the drink is sitting there dying, dying on the counter because it's getting warm, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it unless you have dry ice.
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+[22:13] Now, you throw a chunk or two of dry ice in there. Don't go overboard, you don't want to freeze the drink, right? And and then it's just gonna sit at the bottom of a pitcher. Don't use something too wide, like you know when you were kids, you got the sherbet and the dry ice, right? That's a little bit too wide.
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+[22:25] Uh, you want to get kind of a narrow picture, just throw like you know, a couple rocks of dry ice in there, it lasts a long time. Dry ice is actually uh uh has a lot more cooling capacity than uh ice does, whereas liquid nitrogen actually doesn't. It's a lot colder, but liquid nitrogen's cooling capacity is somewhat similar to ice. Dry ice can chill for a long time. Throw a couple rocks of that in there, give it a stir.
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+[22:44] After about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, that drink is gonna be lightly carbonated and it's gonna stay cold the whole damn night. And then if you have a problem, like you're running out of dry ice, just crack off another little piece of dry ice and throw it in. Plus, it's you know it's got the good show with the mist, people like the show. And it's easily accessible. Yeah, it's easily accessible.
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+[22:59] It's really good technique, especially in summertime. You could have an ice cold, delicious drink. Even very traditional drinks, right? Like gin and tonics, uh for anyone who knows me knows that I I have a lot of gripes with gin tonics, right? Uh because uh they're usually either they're undercarbonated or they're uh they're not boozy enough.
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+[23:16] And then and it's supposed to be a summertime drink. They always turn to crap. Always turn to crap, right? Yeah, you have to drink them very quickly. Yeah, so even if you want to go completely traditional, you don't want to do anything, go buy your bottle of tonic water, buy your gin, uh get some lime, mix it up in a pitcher, right?
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+[23:33] A pitcher of gin and tonics. Put it, go out in your picnic bench or whatever, right? You know, throw a couple rocks of dry ice in there, that thing will stay carbonated and cold, and everyone can get shellacked on delicious summertime gin and tonics without having to worry about you know that last flat, nasty, warm sip of crap that they they they think they like it because the tastes are delicious, but they're just always executed poorly. Does that make sense? Oh, that's wonderful.
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+[23:56] Yeah, what's your favorite kind of gin? Oh, now that's a question. It's like asking me to choose which one of my children I love best. I'm kidding. Uh uh different gins are are are good for for for different purposes, and they're you know, my kind of uh, you know, uh I I like Hendrix for some applications.
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+[24:12] Um, you know, it's kind it kind of you know, it's it's pricey. I think uh that's my favorite. Yeah, uh I you know, uh a lot of times for mixing, my hand instinctively reaches for tank array. And I don't know whether that's because uh I don't know, it's because I don't know, just because it's uh it's nice high proof, it's easy to mix with. I but I know bartenders that are partial to you know any and any and every kind of kind of gin.
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+[24:35] My dad you was an old old school Bombay. He wasn't a sapphire guy, he was a uh you know, white label Bombay guy, and he that's actually where I got my love of tonic water and highly carbonated beverages was from sitting next to my dad. Well he he yeah, he would make a gin and tonic and I would have a just a lyman tonic, so you know, start me early. You gotta start your kids early. Give them tonic water early, get them started out.
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+[24:57] Oxley is also good. Uh yeah. What is it? Uh it is just messing with me. I have nothing I'm I I like Oxley.
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+[25:04] I like Oxley. Oxley's fine. Yeah. It's it's it's different. It's a different I don't think it's a traditional gin taste, but uh um a lot of people I know like beef eater.
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+[25:13] I mean, like it's but there's a lot of a lot of it's personal preference. I recommend going and tasting a lot of gins. If you if you have friends that don't like gin, then a good a good gateway gin is Plymouth because it's light on a lot of uh a a lot a lot of the botanical flavors, especially the juniper that people find objectionable in gin. And so you can you can kind of start them out with that. So that's why we call it the you know it's uh you know the gateway gin.
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+[25:33] Uh and it's it's available. Great. Well, thank you so much. No problem. No problem.
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+[25:38] Thanks for calling. Uh our first official call. That's awesome. Yeah. And I think we were able to help.
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+[25:44] See? Anyone out there who's listening, just know. Wait, but how much is is dry ice? Uh it depends. Uh I think that here in New York it's a it's a little more expensive.
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+[25:53] You actually had to buy it last time. How much was it? It was like I didn't buy it. They ordered it. Yeah, it's on the order of a couple dollars a pound, and you have to buy, I think, like uh twenty twenty pounds or something like that.
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+[26:04] So you're looking at like a forty dollar or something investment. But it's a small price to pay for a delicious beverage. Yeah, it comes wrapped in you know, at a party. I wouldn't say to keep it around all the time, but because you can you know, you can't store it in your fridge. It's sublim I mean if uh you can, it's sublimates, and so you lose it over time.
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+[26:22] There's no way to store it for long periods of time at your house. But you you show up with just like uh you know, like a a disposable styrofoam cooler or cooler, you put it in it'll last for for hours and hours and hours in fact it'll last for you know a day or more depending on how well you store it. And um you know it's it's it's pretty easy and I think especially applicable to you know summertime parties. What about the handling of dry ice? Well okay so dry ice um first thing you should not do uh is the first thing that many many people do which is take a chunk of dry ice put it in water seal it in a soda bottle and throw it and watch it explode.
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+[26:55] This is not considered safe practice. Uh in fact uh the problem is when with CO2 you know dry ice it will it will uh if if sealed it'll do one of two things it will turn to a gas and it will slowly uh increase in pressure up to about eight hundred psi or more or explode whichever comes first usually explosion comes first so uh it's not a good idea to seal large quantities although uh no never mind it's not a good I it's not a good idea to to do that. Uh another thing is it's very easy to get uh burns uh cold burns from handling it for too long. Uh so you know while it's fun to sit there and play hot potato with dry ice uh you know I would uh I would use gloves when I handle it it's uh a lot safer that way than liquid nitrogen is in terms of uh you know liquid nitrogen there's always a danger that it's going to get underneath a glove and really damage you whereas dry ice is not not such a problem. I also if you're gonna chip it I would wear glasses safety glasses because you don't want little pieces of dry ice it's very hard and uh you don't want little pieces flying off and hitting you in the eye.
+
+[27:54] At least I don't want that. Yeah it's awkward. Yeah yeah it is awkward. I'm blind and frozen. Yeah uh yeah, it's not not such a good idea.
+
+[28:01] And you know, uh it would be a bad idea to move into a living room and chill it with dry ice because your house will fill with CO2. Um okay so uh we're coming up on our second commercial break. If you want to call in with problems, dry ice related or not, technical or not. For instance, let's say you want to talk about fish sauce. I love talking about fish sauce.
+
+[28:23] Uh our number here at Cooking Issues uh Heritage Radio is 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128. And you are listening to the Heritage Radio Network Cooking Issues. You feel good? Thanks so much, Bone Brother.
+
+[28:47] How you feel, mate? I feel all right. How you feel, fella? Hey Jure getting down. Look in Ha.
+
+[29:00] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We gotta take your high.
+
+[29:49] I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get it, take us out. You were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh this is Dave Arnold and uh we are taking calls and fixing people's cooking issues. So uh who who do we have who do we have coming up here?
+
+[30:08] We have a call coming in. We have a call. Yeah. Hello? Dave.
+
+[30:16] Yeah? Thank you. Uh I really am excited to uh have you uh uh you know, at least live via this method. Well hopefully we can help we can help out. Who am I speaking with?
+
+[30:28] Uh John. Hey John, how you doing? So what do you want to talk about? Well, uh the the the two best things I bought for uh my kitchen this year, one was a cook tech. Uh uh uh uh I bought a cook technique.
+
+[30:42] Conduction unit yet? The induction unit. It's just terrific. Right. But the other thing I bought was a uh mini pack Torrey.
+
+[30:49] Oh, which one? The MVS 31. Okay. Uh let me just tell our users for for a quick second. So we're talking about an induction uh induction unit, which is basically it uh it's the most kind of uh it's the most efficient way really to cook.
+
+[31:02] It uses electricity, uh, but it instead of having a uh conduct conductively heat like make a lot of heat in your kitchen, it literally heats the pan by by using an oscillating uh oscillating magnetic electric magnetic field. And uh it's a fantastic way to cook. It's not as popular here as it is in Europe because our electricity is more expensive than our gas and because our chefs aren't used to it. The other the other piece of equipment we're talking about is a vacuum packing machine made by Mini Pack, and this particular one he's discussing, the M the M V S thirty one, is a really great size for uh the house. Uh and it it lets you do a lot of really fun things.
+
+[31:32] It's a really professional piece of equipment. Sorry, go ahead. And uh one of the great things about it, I mean, aside from trying to do sous vide or something like that, is the fact that uh, you know, just leftovers. Oh yeah. You c you And you know, like if you go to a a place like Costco that's selling huge packs of meat, you can repackage meat into uh uh usable sizes.
+
+[32:05] Uh but it that comes down I know on the uh on your uh your website you're gonna start uh doing a uh section on on vacuum sealing and vacuum packing. Yeah, we haven't done it yet just because I've been I've been busy, but it is the next in in this in the low temp sous vide list the vacuum packing is the next next one, yeah. Right. And I guess my question to you is how much uh how much are you extra how much air do you extract when you do it? You can go up to like I I guess like ninety-eight percent or something like that.
+
+[32:36] And I always try and get as much air and and uh uh the the the highest vacuum amount when I'm I'm sealing things. And I I know you've got a it can vary and you can you can seal them from like you know, zero to a hundred, but I I was just curious what what are your recommendations? Okay, so here here here's the base the basics of it. And um you can you can if you go on W.cooking issues dot com and search for uh I don't know what to search for, actually Nastasha will look it up like uh the on the back thing. We do we do a thing on how the texture of meat is affected by by vacuum.
+
+[33:10] Uh so you know how much vacuum you apply really depends on on what you're what you're trying to do. So if you're if you're trying to do texture modification, then you want to apply the heaviest vacuum vacuum possible because you want to get all the air out of your product before you do it. If you're if you're vacuuming to to pres like put something in the fridge or freezer, then you want a a heavy, heavy vacuum because you want to get all the oxygen out because that's going to be one of the prime reasons that things go bad, especially on leftovers, right? W warmed over flavor in meat. You know, you you can really prevent it by putting a good hard uh vacuum on.
+
+[33:39] Of course your product has to be really really cold before you vacuum it otherwise you're not going to be able to put a good a good seal on it. Now if you're going to cook the problem is is that uh on on red meat it's not as much of a of a big deal but on fish and on poultry, if you put a very hard vacuum on on on a product, uh I find it tends to change the the texture of the meat when it's cooked and and so the the the effect is uh for those of you that never vacuum before is that uh if you have a very high level of vacuum when you're when you're doing a piece of fish let's say your initial bite will be extremely juicy but all the water will kind of like rush out and then as you start chewing I think it gets more of a fibery taste and it turns almost uh how would you guys describe it like almost like uh it you you know you you if you've done it you know what I'm talking about it it the texture isn't good on the on the sixth and seventh chew let's say it's it's like putting a brick on it and just a normal uh uh normal manner of cooking it pushes all of the water out and so it just becomes a a grainy interior. Yeah I mean I'm not I I don't really understand the the I don't I haven't yet to my satisfaction figured out the actual mechanism of of what's happening. I just know from a practitioner standpoint that uh that this occurs. So what what we recommend is that if you're gonna bag fish uh you want to bag it uh at a low level of vacuum just enough to get the bag basically, you know, a good seal around the around the food.
+
+[35:03] And if you if if you're gonna bag poultry the same, I actually prefer to to do poultry w without vacuum in in in Ziplocks but poultry in a vacuum, if you're gonna do it, I would recommend doing a a low vacuum and just for yourself if you have the time. Sometime I would take uh like three identical pieces and seal one at at like ninety eight, one at ninety nine, and then one at full vac and cook them identically and then just ta taste the difference. Like next time you're gonna cook a lot of something and you have the time the time to do it, I would definitely do it. But y the vacuum machine that you have is a fantastic machine and you know I kinda wish I had that for my house because it's got a very good chamber size to uh you know to to machine size ratio. It's really a nice nice machine.
+
+[35:42] I mean and it does so many things so well and the fact that you can uh I I mean I've done blueberries uh last season that uh uh at low uh you know a low vac but it it preserves them you know without the ice and without all the uh other issues that uh uh you know come up when you try to f uh freeze anything. Oh yeah and you know another like easy application is you could portion out like let's say you if you're like me, you have two kids, you make a whole boatload of pasta for dinner and then you have a bunch left over and you want to be able to serve them for lunch or something like that. If you bag down the leftovers after they're done it makes it a a lot easier to reheat that stuff without either drying it out or ruining. I mean it it really is, you know it seems extravagant for the home, but it really you know it really has its uses. You know, I really like I almost think it's gonna be the the next big thing.
+
+[36:30] I hope so. You know that that it just if if somebody could teach how good vacuuming is you know i in and I understand food saver sort of guided the way for the you know the the whole consumer public to begin thinking about the stuff. But yeah it's really an amazing uh uh kitchen tool. Oh yeah. No, it's uh no no question that uh it we I I hope that they become more and more prevalent and maybe the price is coming down.
+
+[36:55] I know Mini Pac's working on it. I'm not a big fan of the food saver. I like the professional ones a lot better, but but I hope to get that next section of the primer out soon. Maybe if I have some time over the Fourth of July break, I'll I'll work on it. Nastash is laughing because she knows that I won't.
+
+[37:14] And now I see that uh uh uh they're com not them, but uh uh the uh poly science people are coming out with a uh new circulator. That's true. Yeah, it's good. Is it yeah it's slow? I I like I I like the Sous vide Supreme because it's easy and you can just sort of s stick it away.
+
+[37:37] But have you ever used a circulator? Like a regular You will love the let me tell you something. It's it it's just boatloads boatloads better. It's just you know, when you move from a non stirred bath to a stirred bath, plus the it's so much easier to put away. This thing's the size of like uh it's like you know, uh in between a stick blender and a regular blender.
+
+[37:56] It's you know, it's it's um yeah. I mean, I'm not uh I'm nothing against the Sous Vide Supreme. I've never cooked with it, but I mean I use circulated. It actually works it it it works very well and and uh I've just been uh I've been doing a lot of like uh uh lamb chops. Yeah.
+
+[38:13] And you just hit 'em right on when when you do it at like one forty for like an hour and you know, some minutes and then then uh sear 'em off. It just becomes so perfect. Get your hands on it. Just test it. Play with a circulator.
+
+[38:29] I guarantee I've never here's two things I've never heard someone say. I've never heard someone say, Hey, I regretted buying that Vitaprep blender, and I've never heard someone say I've regretted buying that circulator. I've just never heard it. Maybe maybe someone somewhere has said that, but I've never heard it. The uh Sous Vide Supreme, it doesn't actually have a stirred bath, right?
+
+[38:45] It's not stirred. No, it's an unstirred bath. It's not that it's not that it does a bad job. It's just to me it's big it's bigger than it needs to be in your kitchen and it doesn't it doesn't have circulation, so if you're doing a longer cooked item, you're gonna be probably be okay. But if you're doing shorter term items or if you're the stuff's coming in and out of the the bath a lot, uh I th you know I think you're I always think you're better off with circ circulation.
+
+[39:05] So it'd be like a one bag, one bag at a time. I mean the circulator is gonna be a little more money a little bit. I mean I think the Sou Viet Supreme is about a five hundred now, and the circulator is gonna come in just under eight. But you know, to me it's uh I mean it's easy for me to say because you know I you know I've had the equipment for a long time, but to for me it's another three hundred dollars well well spent. But there's nothing wrong with Sous V Supreme.
+
+[39:28] No, no, no, no. Yeah, and uh it holds product in there very well, and I've not had any real issues with it. I'm not saying anything negative about the Sous Vide Supreme. No, I nor am I. I I love it, but I'm you know, I may just get a second one just just for the hell of it.
+
+[39:41] Because you know, there are times that you want to do vegetables along with the meat. And at different different temperatures. So you know, I don't know if you have anyone in your house who i is gonna need some convincing that you need this, but you can tell them I said that the circulator's a good purchase. Now can can you sell me on the uh uh on on uh uh your what what was the one that you just got uh uh what the rotovap? Well if you have if you have twenty grand to spend, yeah, call Bukey and get one right away.
+
+[40:14] But like Anyway, listen, thanks for calling. I got someone else to come in, we're gonna run out of time. Thanks a lot. Very good. Thank you.
+
+[40:24] Did we lose our we lose our next caller or we still got I don't know. No? Oh, there's no one. Oh, there's no oh we had someone. Now I made now I I cut I cut this this poor guy off, John off, because I thought you said we had another guy coming in.
+
+[40:35] So Dave, if you're gonna actually have to cryovac some fish, what is the general rule of thumb for the percentage of vacuum? Fish? Uh you know, look, you want the minimum vacuum that that you can that you can get uh on fish and you want to bag fish with uh with oil or some other liquid so that it doesn't crush the portions down. I think a lot of people when they first get a vacuum machine they put a hard vac on fish and then they you know they ru they the portion looks insane. It looks like a pillow because they've crushed the bag around it.
+
+[41:01] And they're much better off, you know, doing a light vac. Uh you know, look I I love the vacuum machine, but but get the circulator first and then and then you know, play around. I think we have another call. Oh yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[41:13] It's John? No, no, no. Oh, the person came back. Hello? Hi.
+
+[41:17] Hi. Hi, I'm Janelle. Hey Janet. Hey, I have a question about brisket. Brisket, okay.
+
+[41:23] Every time I try to cook it, it comes out terrible. Uh is there a trick to to having it come out, you know, like you get it in a restaurant, you know, kind of melting in your mouth. How do you cook it? Um well I've tried grilling it and that hasn't worked because I haven't been able to maintain a low temperature on my grill. That's very difficult, yeah.
+
+[41:42] Yeah, so so I just the oven, you know, uh about two fifty for uh depending on how many pounds it is, uh you know, uh a long time. But um I don't know if I should sear it first or if there's like a a trick to it that I'm missing. Right. Yeah. Okay, so I'm dealing with a uh a fundamental deficit and that it's been so long since I've had to cook without a circulator.
+
+[42:05] That it's difficult. But um, yeah, so uh I would guess that uh I wonder whether they the the guys in Texas put an initial sear on it or not. Probably not. I don't know. Probably not.
+
+[42:17] Isn't it all about the Mayard? Well, it you know, with briskets all about okay, so a brisket is a tough cut of meat that has a lot of connective tissue, right? And so the the basic technique is you're gonna overcook the hell out of the brisket meat, but then over time you're gonna break down the collagen. And the collagen that you break down is gonna turn into gelatin, and that's gonna re-moisten the meat. So, you know, w one of the problems you might have had is that you might not have cooked it long enough for it to get remoist again, but you treat it basically like uh like a like a braise.
+
+[42:47] Um uh uh Cooks Illustrated, I believe, did a uh uh uh a brisket recipe for the house recently, but I I haven't I haven't uh looked at it. But in general, you're right, low and slow is is the way to go, but you have to give it enough time for the collagen to kind of convert. The commercial guys do it in very you know, in a very low heat in a in a pit, and the smoke gives it that characteristic smoke ring, and then also treats it at a fairly low temperature so that it's basically doing almost like like a comfee thing, but without the fat. It's it's going it's cooking at those kind of temperatures, at those low temperatures. And uh you could I mean if you braise it, it's not gonna taste like brisket, it's gonna taste like a braise.
+
+[43:26] It'll be delicious, but it won't be it won't be the same thing. Uh I feel I feel awful. You know what I'm gonna do? You know what I'm gonna do? Here's what I'm gonna do.
+
+[43:35] Go to okay, listen, in a week's time, give me a week. I'm gonna I'm gonna research this thing. Go to www.cooking issues.com, and someone will have posted a thread in the forum section. Go to the forums, and someone will have posted a section on it, and we'll we'll figure this problem out for you so that it doesn't happen to you again, okay? I've seen really great really great techniques with marination, like a twenty four hour marination before the actual cooking.
+
+[43:58] That'll keep it. Well, we're we're gonna start a discussion on the forums of cooking issues, and we're gonna get this tack down because we have some Texans who uh go to the blog, and I'm sure they will they will tell me that anything I say is preposterous and stupid, and having had the brisket they make down there, they do know how to make good brisket. Anyway, that's great. All right, thank you. Thank you very much.
+
+[44:17] Thanks for calling. All right, so back. Alright, so we we have someone else on the line here? All right, who do we got? What do we got?
+
+[44:23] Hello? Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi.
+
+[44:27] How are you doing? Hi, uh I have some questions. Is this who is this? Uh this is Weepop. Weepop.
+
+[44:37] Weepop Soupy Pot. Like, okay. People who are listening, this call is coming in live from Bangkok, Thailand. Wartor. This is this is this is Weepop Soupy Pot, one of the one of the great all-time people.
+
+[44:50] Uh a friend of cooking issues, uh, a friend of ours. And so Weepop, what is your question all the way from Asia? What is your question? Alright, so um I eat a lot of beef, right? And uh so be have been picking up in Thailand, and a lot of chefs are cooking tender Suvi tenderloin.
+
+[45:11] Mm-hmm. But uh I think I think um previous caller has kind of uh answered the question already, and and you've sort of half answered the question. Uh so why why does tenderloin become really fibrous and really mushy? Okay, tenderloin is a huge problem. As you know, um I can't believe Weepop was calling.
+
+[45:31] I'm so happy. Weepop, you I'm so happy. Anyway, uh so the uh tenderloin is is uh is an interesting case. Tenderloin uh wants to be cooked at extremely low temperatures because it doesn't have a lot of connective tissue. The more connective tissue that a piece of meat has, kind of the higher the temperature, the longer you need to cook it.
+
+[45:49] When you cook something at a low temperature for a long time, a lot of the initial effects of whether or not you're gonna overcook something happen right away. This is the hardest thing when you're learning to cook low temperature or sous vide to get wrap your head around is that you're no longer cooking in terms of uh just oh I'm gonna turn the temperature up to cook more. It's really temperature and time, and this stuff doesn't overcook just because you cook it longer, but you do get textural changes. So what happens in meat that is essentially devoid of connective tissue is that uh it gets not an overcooked, because it doesn't taste overcooked, but as you chew it, it tastes kind of fibery, as you said. And so uh with with tenderloin, you want to cook it at a at a low temperature at the low end of the scale.
+
+[46:29] When I say that, uh I'm sorry for all of you in America land, I think in Celsius, because I work at the French Culinary Institute. You want to cook it at like 544 Celsius, right around there. You don't want to go too much higher. And you want to put a sear on it, and you only want to cook it, a tenderloin for like 45 minutes. Now, the problem here is is that is that this isn't food code because you're not uh you're not right keeping it long enough.
+
+[46:50] Now it is kind of safe as long as you sear it, you kill all the bacteria on the outside. It actually is kind of safe because the inside of the muscle is sterile, but it's just not code. You know what I mean? But I don't know what the codes are in Thailand. Weepop is me.
+
+[47:04] We have no code. Oh, nice. So how you think it's perfect. Yeah, how are you doing over there in Thailand? How's how's everything going?
+
+[47:12] Is it Oh, um well, th things are going great. Uh we have new equipments in and um we're we're playing with food on this end. Well, get you know, ship us out there, ship us here. Bringing out a lot of stuff. I need to I need to you know I love you know I love all the Thai ingredients.
+
+[47:28] How come you don't get me shipped out there? We gotta go out to Thailand. Cooking issues has to Stasi, right? Cooking Issues has to go on the road to Thailand. Yes.
+
+[47:35] We pop is made me a happy man. The new uh David Thompson restaurant is gonna open up here in about a month's time. For those of you that don't know, he has the best cookbook on on Thai food in the English language, in my opinion. Didn't you buy something, Weepop recently? Oh yes, and and I bought a uh a secret royal Thai recipe that's uh supposedly not in print anymore, which um David Thompson is actually gonna use part of that book to um in to base his new menus on.
+
+[48:04] So you're gonna email us the recipe or what? I think I think it's in Thai. I would have to translate it. It's recipes from like 1908. Oh, nice.
+
+[48:13] Extremely old. Alrighty. Well, Weepop, thank you so much for calling. I can't wait till uh we can see you back in the States. We gotta get you back uh gotta get you back to the States, back stateside.
+
+[48:24] All right, thank you so much. Thank you. So uh so what are we doing now? We take if we haven't taken a break, we have to go to break. We have another caller?
+
+[48:32] No, you have another minute. We have another minute. All right, so this uh this then was the uh inaugural version of uh Cooking Issues, the show on Heritage Radio Network. Today, Cooking Issues was brought to you by the Butterhouse. Uh and the Butterhouse uh, you know, works with uh we we've polished off an entire bottle of one of their one of their family vineyards uh wines here, uh the uh Kerner Estate Chardonnay, and we appreciate that they are uh they are the sponsor of the show.
+
+[49:01] Uh thank you for listening and come back next Tuesday. Vicious Vicious Factor. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] My name is McKenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months.
+
+[0:32] I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who are really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform, trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com.
+
+[0:56] GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe. Oh, you did rep. Got me on the scroll. And I don't know where I'm going to be able to do.
+
+[1:22] Hello, you're listening to Dave Arnold on Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with your cooking issues and we try to solve them. Be they technical, uh be they not technical, we are going to work on them for you. Uh the call-in number here is 718-497-2128. That is 718-497-2128. And I'm told that for live call-ins, uh, we are authorized to give away uh heritage meat uh pork shops, Porter House Pork Shops.
+
+[1:52] So that's an incentive to call in. Please do call in with your questions. I'm here with uh Nastasha Lopez, also working at uh Cooking Issues. And uh we we actually have some email questions. If you want to email questions, email them to N Lopez at French Culinary.com.
+
+[2:09] Right. Okay. So uh let's start Nastasha with some questions that were emailed in from uh last week. Uh what what do we have here? Uh we have one from Mike who wants to know about uh curing a large cut of meat, I think, or pastrami.
+
+[2:25] All right, so uh yeah, so Mike is making pastrami uh with beef blade and uh he's been pumping it with uh liquids to to cure it. And he wants to maybe move to uh a vacuum machine. Now, some of the advantages of the vacuum machine is you don't have to use a lot of brine. You can go dryer uh with a dryer rub and cure quickly, and I can assure you that curing in a vacuum bag does work. Uh I apologize to Mike.
+
+[2:46] We we actually just got a vacuum marinator so that we can run a bunch of different vacuum tests and see uh exactly what the optimum vacuum level is. There's some disagreements. Some chefs I know when they put their uh they they'll use something like uh an instacure powder or Morton's tender quick, which is basically salt plus uh curing powder in it. Curing powder is is n nitrates, uh nitrites rather. Uh and uh, you know, these are these aren't some sort of crazy thing.
+
+[3:09] These have been used for hundreds of years, so I don't want anyone saying we're adding some sort of crazy newfangled, you know, artificial crap to it. Nitrites have been in cured meats for centuries and centuries, uh actually millennia in the form of impurities that are already naturally occurring in salt deposits around the world. Uh so that aside, it's a little uh tirade tangent for you. Uh but um if you just you know either use a brine or rub uh your cure onto the meat and pack it in a vacuum bag. I think you'll notice uh I usually use a high vacuum.
+
+[3:36] Some you know professionals say that you actually don't want a super high vacuum because it can actually at a certain point hinder the uh uh uh you know the penetration of the brine, but I haven't tested it yet, so I don't know. But you'll notice much, much quicker penetration uh in in a vacuum bag, much quicker. So for instance, I haven't done pastrami this way, but uh pork belly, uh you can get almost all the way through a pork belly overnight in uh in in a vacuum bag. Um so vacuum machine is definitely a great way to accelerate a cure. Now, from a taste standpoint on a long cured item, I would never use it to accelerate a cure on a long cooked uh long cured item rather, like uh like a ham, let's say, because uh a lot of the flavor of a ham, you know, I'm specifically talking about you know longer cured hams, uh, has to do with the length of time it takes for uh the curing to happen.
+
+[4:22] So in general, even though I'm a tech guy, uh things that are cured over a long period of time for flavor, I tend not to uh try to accelerate too much. Uh thanks, uh Mike. If that didn't answer your question, please you know post uh something on the forums at uh www.cookingissues.com forward slash forums or email us another question. Uh thank thanks for the question. And uh before I take the next question, I'd like to say that uh today's show is sponsored by the Hearst Ranch.
+
+[4:48] Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and as natural as a surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.hurstranch.com. That's www.hurstranch.com.
+
+[5:12] Actually, I'd like to taste some of that stuff, huh? Yeah. Maybe they'll send us some. Yeah. Uh and again, the number to call in for this show is 718 497 2128.
+
+[5:22] Cooking issues at 718 497 2128. Alright, Nastasha, what's up next? We have another question from uh an email from Jason who's a health nut and is going to buy uh circulator from Polyscience. Wants to know the best way to cook a skinless chicken breast. Uh he wants to avoid butter, duck fat and use something like olive oil or coconut oil.
+
+[5:44] Uh should he bag it, should you brine it, bone off? What do you think? All right, so uh what is the name again? Jason. All right, Jason.
+
+[5:50] So uh you know you caught me at a little bit of a disadvantage because I almost never cook for health. I almost always cook for pure taste. So I you know I'm always a little bit out of sorts when uh when you know I have to comment on um nutrition. Uh however, uh if if you just want to know how to make a skinless chicken breast taste as good as you can, uh you've gone the right route with it with a circulator. Now here's the problem.
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+[6:11] If you vacuum a chicken breast uh at in in a vacuum bag and then circulate it, uh you can uh I would I would do it at 63 degrees, by the way. If that's a little too uh a standard chicken breast in a vacuum bag, uh 63 degrees for roughly uh an you know an hour or so is more than enough, that's a good way to go. If that's a little too underdone for you, uh I would up it to um maybe sixty-four. I wouldn't go above sixty-five. I know this runs counter to what you're taught your whole life, but uh trust me, try it uh and I think you'll you'll agree.
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+[6:40] Uh I tend not to like to vacuum the chicken because when you do, it tends to take on a canned chicken texture. It's almost too juicy. And when you bite into it, all the juices kind of flow out and uh and then the third and fourth chew are a little drier than I than I like. So I tend to uh put them into Ziploc bags and cook them that way. Oh, uh by the way, for anyone listening uh who doesn't know what the hell we're talking about, uh the the piece of equipment we're talking about is an immersion circulator.
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+[7:06] And an immersion circulator is basically just a piece of equipment that uh lets you keep very, very accurate uh water temperatures. And this allows you to cook things very, very accurately. So you never you never overcook them, you don't have to monitor them too much. It's very simple. Uh you know, food doesn't dry out.
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+[7:21] It's it's a great piece of equipment. And you know, if you look under uh low temperature and sous vide on www.cookingissues.com, we have enough information to choke you uh on uh emerging circulators if you want to know about it. So go go look at it there. But they're actually a fantastic piece of equipment that people are using more in their homes. Now, back to your question.
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+[7:39] I wouldn't vacuum bag them, even though I love vacuum machines. I would use uh Ziploc bags. Uh and the way you put it the reason is is because if if you don't put a vacuum on it, you're gonna get much more of a natural texture in the chicken breast. Now, you can use any liquid you want, really, you know, from chicken stock up to uh olive oil. I tend not to bag too much with uh my really flavorful olive oils because I think the taste interaction can be a little bit strange sometimes.
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+[8:00] But you know, you can use basically any anything you want. And you don't need that much of it in the bag, actually. So you just seal the bag up till it's almost done, and then the trick is dunking it under water. Uh and then the water basically displaces all the air so that you get a nice uh seal. Uh and it's very, very simple to do.
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+[8:17] There's there's uh, you know, not to pump the blog again, but on WW.cookingissues.com, there's a section on Ziploc bagging uh with step-by-step picture instructions on how to do a really good uh bagging job with a ziplock. And I I can I can make my Ziplocks very quickly look as good as a vacuum-packed job to you know the untrained eye. So I think that's really kind of the way the way to go. And you can, you know, season it normally. You don't really need to brine it, uh, except for the brine's gonna increase the salt level on the inside of the meat, which is gonna give you uh kind of probably a better taste and texture, but you don't need it from an overcooking standpoint because you're not gonna overcook it.
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+[8:50] Now, because you're not gonna have a lot of texture on this because it's a skinless chicken breast and it's gonna be somewhat soft, these preps are usually better, I think, kind of chopped up for use in salads. They're really good for cold preps uh the next day. Um, but you know, I tend not to eat skinless uh chicken on its own. But you know, this is a really good technique uh for a cold prep because when it cools down, it's still going to be delicious, it's not going to be dry at all. Uh and so to recap, 63 uh for about an hour, 64 maybe if you like it a little bit firmer.
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+[9:20] You think that that got it? Yeah, I think so. All right. Um we have another question. We're gonna wait to see if your friend Michael Isconis calls in.
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+[9:27] Oh, yes. Uh we have a question regarding uh a recipe from Michael Asconus, the pastry chef at La Bernadette. Uh and I was too stupid to uh text him beforehand to ask him the answer to the question. So we we have a text into him, so we're gonna handle that uh that question towards the uh end of the uh program. But since we were off last week, why don't you tell them how you spent your fourth of July and what you cooked?
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+[9:48] Ah, well, okay. So uh, you know, Fourth of July, I usually go either to Maine or to Cape Cod or some combination thereof. Um this year I went to Cape Cod, and and you know, as many of you know, Cape Cod in Massachusetts is you know kind of lobster country. The guys in Maine actually make fun of the Cape Cod lobsters. They say the main lobsters taste better than the Cape Cod lobsters, and the guys in Canada make fun of the main lobsters.
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+[10:10] So for the further north you go, the more they make fun of the southerly lobsters. Anyway, that's that's that's neither here nor there. But uh so anyway, so main lobsters, right? They have a there's a catch size limit. Like you can't catch lobsters that are too small, and you can't catch catch lobsters that are too big, and it's based on uh the measurement of the of the back shell.
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+[10:26] And that's a conservation uh method, uh, you know, effort, and uh uh it must be working because the the you know the lobster uh fishery in in Maine is actually still quite healthy. Uh now in Cape Cod, they don't have those kinds of limits on male lobsters. Male lobsters you can basically take any size you want if you dive for them. There's certain I think there's limits on how many you can take per day. You're not supposed to take big females because lobsters unlike most creatures as they get older and older and older they still bear more and not just the same amount of eggs more and more and more and more eggs.
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+[10:56] So an older lobster female lobster is much more valuable to uh the lobster population than than a young female lobster. So you shouldn't take the older the older females. But um the older males I kind of think are are fair game. Now a lot of people think lobsters big lobsters they that they taste bad and this is just because two problems one they cook them too long because they have to cook them a long time to to cook them through. And secondly they don't uh they don't serve them properly.
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+[11:22] Lobsters as they get older the muscle fibers get bigger and bigger and coarser and coarser. So if you were to bite into uh the lobster tail let's say of an old lobster it would taste kind of rubbery and tough now the trick with this is is to just slice the tail and meat like that into discs and then the fibers are already shortened and you're actually biting uh you know kind of with the grain and it breaks apart and you know it has a different texture from a young lobster tail but it's still you know very delicious. So uh you know a lot of people they don't kind of they don't believe this and you know usually the biggest lobster I'll cook is like six eight eight pounds which is still a monster by most standards. I mean uh you know you know most people are out there with their you know one two and three pound lobsters sissies and uh and so uh what I you know what we did is I went walked into this store in Truro mass and uh I was like yeah what kind of lobster you have what kind of you know what what kind of size lobster the guys 20 pounds it was 20 pounds 20 pound lobster I was like, geez, 20-pound lobster. I bought it, basically uh and a 20-pound lobster is really, really big lobster.
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+[12:22] And I thought if you could get any lobster to prove my point that big lobsters aren't any worse than small lobsters, that, you know, it's gonna be harder to get one bigger than about uh 20 pounds. Now the guy in the store told me that a 20 pound, this 20-pound lobster is like 130 years old. And you know, and then everyone else was like, oh my God, you're eating something that's 130 years old, it's older than anyone at the table, you know, that the lobster almost could have fought in the civil war, all this kind of thing. And but that's the nonsense. First of all, that's the lobster does not fight in the civil war.
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+[12:49] The lobster is sitting at the bottom of the ocean, you know, killing other lobsters when it can and hiding whenever it molts. You know, it's still just a lobster. It's still, you know, its brain function doesn't get any higher just because it's old, right? I mean, that's kind of thing. This kind of sentimental notion that just because it's old, you know, gooey duck clams can live to be uh 140, and uh, you know, people don't have that much simple well, I don't know anyone that has a lot of sympathy for the gooey duck.
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+[13:09] Anyway, anyway, that's aside the point. The fact of the matter is, this lobster wasn't actually 100 and uh 30 years old. Uh, you know, that's based on these kind of crazy formulas that they have for lobsters, uh, you know, that don't kind of fit older lobsters. It was probably, but I mean, it was old. I mean, it's be honest.
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+[13:24] It was probably like 60 or 70 years old, you know. So uh anyway, uh so here's what I did. I had the guy at the lobster store. He wanted to cook it for 45 minutes, which obviously would have made it, you know, inedible and terrible, and this is why people think big lobsters are bad. So instead, what I had him do is I had him steam it for uh eight minutes.
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+[13:40] This kills the lobster and it lets the meat separate from the shell. Then I got metal shears because the shell is so darn thick, and I cut the all the meat out of it, right? And then I sliced it thin and I ziploc bagged it uh with butter, and then I quick poached each individual slice. So each slice was cooked very quickly, which preserves the texture. The lobster that's cooked for too long gets mushy, and it was sliced properly so that when you chewed it, it wasn't gonna be tough.
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+[14:03] And it was like I think it was one of the best lobsters I've ever made. And it, you know, it certainly it fed our whole crew. Delicious. So anyway, that you can check out that post uh also, you know, pumping ourselves again, why not on www dot cooking issues dot com anyway uh I've been told that we're uh what are we we're going to break yeah we're gonna we're going out to break and we'll be right back with cooking issues funky sound nest hey listen to the man follow hey back cold bloody boom gotta get over before we go under beep up we gotta get over before we go under hey country it didn't say what you mean it just changed brand new funky president stock market going up jobs going down and no fucking job to be found uh keep going up change from my glass nah I drank from the paper didn't bag beep a beep we got get over listen to me let's get together and basic let's get together cut some land raise our food like the man save our money like the mob like this old job hello, God. Hello!
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+[15:50] Turtle! Get down and bring his load. Get sex to sex to get focus! And dang. Love the baby.
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+[16:00] Love it. Don't make it fun, but can you make it twice? I like it. Beep, beep, bum. We gotta get over before we go under.
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+[16:12] You are listening to Dave Arnold on Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, where you call in and we answer your cooking issues. Uh please call in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497 and 2128. Call in with any cooking related question you want, and you will get free delicious pork chops. Emailing won't get you the park.
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+[16:37] Yeah, email sorry folks. You know, email em no no uh no pork chops with uh with the emails. Um uh we we talked about uh lobster. I'm gonna I'm gonna wait a couple more minutes to see whether or not we get Michael Sconis to uh get him on the phone to talk to him about his recipe. Um the we're talking about the the question came from actually uh uh uh person uh who reads our blog and she it came from the person who sent us uh yeah mana yeah delicious mana uh candy which you can also read about uh uh on www.cooking issues.com pump pump pump.
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+[17:11] Okay. Uh so uh let's talk about cocktails for a minute while we're while we're waiting. Um next week, I guess uh I'm going off to New Orleans to go to the Tales of the Cocktail, which is a you know kind of a cocktail convention that they have in New Orleans every year, and you know, a lot of the great, you know, bar people go every year, and it's uh it's kind of a crazy debauched drink fest. It's in New Orleans in the middle of the summer because you know they're too cheap to have it in New Orleans any other time, and no one, no one wants to go to New Orleans, you know, in the middle of July, where it's a billion degrees and you know, a hundred percent humidity and sit in uh you know some of the best old bars in the country, unair conditioned, you know, drinking yourself into oblivion, but yet I do it I do it every year. Uh anyway, uh just kidding, it's great, great event.
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+[17:55] Um the um so this year I'm going uh and I'm part of a seminar called uh what's it called? The science of stirring. No, I did shaking last year. Uh you know, Evan Evan Clem, the you know, the kind of well-known bartender, he's kind of the you know the head of the BR guest, you know, mega restaurant chains bar program, and uh he pulls me in uh every year. Last year we did kind of the science behind shaking a cocktail, where we we actually came up with some interesting uh information, which is as far as the dilution of your cocktail uh is concerned, and as far as the temperature of your cocktail is concerned, uh really with as long as you're within reasonable limits, the way you shake the cocktail doesn't make a bit of difference really.
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+[18:36] Uh it it makes a definite difference on the also the ice type doesn't make as much difference as as you think. It makes a different difference uh difference on the texture of the drink, how it tastes, you know, the texture of it in your mouth. But in terms of temperature and dilution, it it doesn't really make that that much much of a difference. This year we're taking on uh stirring, and you'll have to uh you know we'll I'm I suppose I shouldn't post the answers before the seminar. That would mean people didn't have to go to the seminar.
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+[19:02] Yeah, right. So uh we'll be posting that stuff hopefully after next week after the after the seminar Tales of the Cocktail. But something I will talk about is uh dilution and pre-batching cocktails. So you know, a lot of times you have to make uh a cocktail and then you know b batch it all together. Let's say you're doing an event or a function or party, and you have to put all the cocktail together beforehand and then serve it out.
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+[19:25] Uh and a lot of people have kind of crazy ideas in their heads on how to figure out how much water to add to a pre-batch cocktail to uh to really get it to work properly when you when you put it in the fridge. Uh so let's pre bat by the way, pre-batch cocktails. It's very hard to pre-batch uh a shaking cocktail because uh you know you really do need to shake a shaking cocktail to get the texture right. We ran side by side blind taste tests of uh drinks that are uh should be shaken versus stirred, and uh and we we did we did them both shaken and stirred. So we did a daiquiri, which should be shaken, and we did you know a daiquiri stirred and a daiquiri shaken, blind with blindfolds on, and you easily tell the difference.
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+[20:05] And we also took drinks that should be stirred, like a Manhattan uh, we know, which is uh you know, whiskey, we used uh you know, rye whiskey, uh vermouth, uh some bitters. And uh you know, we we stirred some and shook some and tasted them blind, and huge huge difference. Uh now uh the shaking is hard to emulate in a pre batch cocktail unless you have liquid nitrogen. It turns out we've done some tests that if you if you chill a drink alimute that you've already diluted with liquid nitrogen, you can emulate the texture of a shaken drink pretty well. But uh stirred drinks uh are basically good if you just dilute them properly and then chill them because uh basically stirring is just a chilling and diluting process, it's not a texturizing process, and that's why that's why you use it for those drinks.
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+[20:47] You don't want to add a lot of extra texture in a stirred drink. So, you know, if you can, you choose a stirred drink to do your pre batched drinks with. And then here's how to determine how much how much water to add. Make your uh make a single drink, right? Make it.
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+[21:01] Uh using volume like you normally would with jiggers. Then uh weigh that on an accurate scale. Weigh the drink, write that number down, right? That's how much drink you're starting with. Now, uh add your ice, stir it, just like you're making a normal drink.
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+[21:14] Normal drink, right? Stir it, right? Then strain it. Now weigh how much the drink weighs now. That is uh that is the weight of the total cocktail.
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+[21:27] If you subtract the weight of the liquor that went into it, the liquor and ingredients that went into it from the final weight of the cocktail, you have basically how much water you should add, right? And that's really the best way to determine instead of guessing in your head 25%. And it also doesn't work to try and dilute it by just diluting it with water when it's at room temperature and then tasting it, because when you chill it, the balance is going to be off. So you really just want to make a drink the traditional way and then weigh how much water is in it. It's slightly more complicated than that because some of your liquor is actually held on the ice, and so you have to do a lot of fancy finagling.
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+[21:59] Uh but within two or three grams of uh water, uh it you know, you're gonna be pretty much right doing it the way the way I just told you. It seems complicated, but you're I think your your pre-batched drinks are gonna thank you for it. And you only need to do it once. If you write down the recipe, uh you can get that recipe right every time. You don't have to re-retest it every time.
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+[22:16] So it's a little bit uh of a pain in the butt, but well, well worthwhile, right? Right Snazzi? Yes. Yes, yes. Uh okay.
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+[22:26] So uh see that's uh pre batching, uh pre batching cocktails. What else should what else should we talk about? Let's talk about the meat that's coming in today. Oh my god, yeah. So okay, so that what's the name of the butcher again?
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+[22:35] Ooh, it's like Sissy. Sismer, yeah. Sidmer, yeah. In uh where are they at? Chicago?
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+[22:40] Yeah. So there's uh there's this butcher shop, and uh, you know, I'm I'm ruining the name, but it's like Sismer, C Z C Z what? C Z I M E R. Yeah, uh, and uh these guys have been around for decades and decades. I think they're, you know, a couple generations old the business now at this point, right?
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+[22:54] Right. Yeah. And uh they specialize in uh bizarre rare meats, right? And meats that you wouldn't normally get. Uh so what does that mean?
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+[22:59] I'm not talking, you know, buffalo, although they do have that. I'm talking beaver and lion. Uh, you know, uh what else? What else we get? Raccoon, bear, you know, things that you can't you can't normally get, and meats that you can't normally uh buy because you can't, you know, in this country, you can't buy meat that's been hunted by a hunter.
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+[23:22] You have to know a hunter who legally bags meat in order to get these kind of game meats. So before I get people writing in telling me I'm a horrible person for ordering lion meat to taste, uh, and by the way, we're gonna we're gonna taste a tiny piece of each one of them, then bag them and cook them sous vide because we'd think that these tough, you know, tough older meats are gonna be best that way. Anyway, so before you get angry at me uh about ordering these these meats, um, you should know kind of how it how it happens that these meats uh are sold. Uh it's not a a pretty story, but here's how it is people get lions as pets because they're crazy. Right?
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+[24:01] I mean, if they're insane, you know. So they get lions as pets, or they have lions and they use the lions as uh to breed, you know, like they're breeding lions either for I don't know for what, for Zeus, circuses, whatever, for other, you know, freak shows who want lions as pets, right? So they they breed them, and then once they're no longer um good breeders anymore, or if someone has a pet and they don't want that pet anymore, they give them to uh animal brokers. And uh, you know, just like stray cats, you know, you give a your stray cat and they get put down. You don't have to see it, you don't have to do it, but you basically know your cat's being put down.
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+[24:36] The same thing happens with a lion. So they get the lion, and if they can't sell it, which often they can't on an older lion, the lion is killed. The actual the most valuable part about is the skin. The skin is sold off for you know for fur, for lion fur for whatever, you know, whatever, making rugs, rugs, I guess, I don't know. But then the meat is basically a byproduct.
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+[24:56] So you know, rather than let it go to waste, uh, you know, these guys uh, you know, in Chicago uh buy, you know, the the meat from these uh exotic animal brokers and then freeze it and resell it. So you're you no one's going out and slaughtering lions for the purpose of food. These are you know animals that probably shouldn't have been in the situation that they were in, but not through the fault of the you know the butcher. Uh it's just you know, you know, once it once you've killed the animal, you might as well put it to use. So we're gonna taste uh all of these meats.
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+[25:28] What do we have coming in? We got we have lion, black bear, a whole raccoon, and two beaver tails. Two beaver tails. Uh I thought we also got some of the regular beav beaver meat, too. No, no.
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+[25:40] I thought we did. No. You sure? I'm pretty sure. Hmm.
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+[25:43] Beaver tail is an interesting one. They'll yak. Oh, yak, yes, yes. The Tibetan favorite yak. We'll get some yak milk cheese.
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+[25:49] We'll go get some yak milk cheese, and then we'll have you know, yak, yak, and yak. We'll get some yak butter and we'll make Tibetan Tibetan tea with yak butter floating on the top of it, which is actually wretched. I don't know how people drink that, but uh we'll make it, you know, in the sense of you know, we'll we want to be authentic. Authentic sous vide Tibetan dinner. Anyway, um Beaver's an interesting one because uh back in the day here's the thing the butcher laughed laughed his uh you know rear off because uh he says there's no meat on a beaver tail, and he always has people asking him to to to buy it to eat it, but he says there's basically no meat on it.
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+[26:20] So you know what are you gonna do? And um, you know, I think the reason most people call him, I don't know how much of a history buff he is, but for all you history buffs out there, um, you know, back in the day, there were many days, not just Fridays, when Catholics weren't allowed to eat uh meat. There were many, many, you know, fast days uh and Lenten days, and on those days you weren't allowed to eat meat. You could only eat fish, right? And so that you know that in fact that's my theory why in Italian uh recipes you'll find very few recipes that use dairy and uh fish, because it wasn't just meat you weren't allowed to have on a fast day, it was it was dairy.
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+[26:56] So you didn't cook with dairy, you didn't cook uh, I believe also eggs, and you didn't cook with meat. So these were f you know basically fish-based uh fish-based dishes, and this helped, you know, fuel the uh the dried stockfish uh the you know and the you know the dried cod um you know dried fish business for hundreds of years. Uh anyway, uh, you know, and there's all sorts of religious reasons why they thought meat inflamed the passions and it was good, etc. blah, blah, blah. So anyway, so uh beaver tail, because uh, you know, they had kind of you know, whack this is pre-Linnaeus, they had wacky, you know, ways of categorizing animals.
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+[27:28] So the the actual beaver was a uh an animal and you couldn't eat that on the fast days, but beaver tail was seen kind of like fish. And so you could eat beaver tail on a fast day, and so you actually get these recipes or these mentions anyway in medieval documents of beaver tail cooking beaver tail. And this has got to be why this guy gets the interest in it, because there's lots of uh history buffs out there who, you know, are are doing this kind of thing. Oddly also, whale clearly is not labeled as a meat, strangely, it was labeled as a fish. So if you could get a hold of some whale meat back in the day, I don't advocate that, but if you could get a hold of it, you could have that on a on a on a fast day uh as well.
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+[28:06] I believe. I'm not sure well how seals classified, but uh I don't know. Anyway, so we'll let you know how the uh the beaver tail and the lion is. The lion's actually supposedly interesting because if you think about it, there's no commercially raised meat that we have that uh comes from a carnivore. Uh and supposedly uh, you know, they have a completely different uh taste uh carnivores do.
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+[28:27] So we'll we'll let you know uh when that when that comes in. Uh what's going on, Sassy? We have two more minutes, and then uh we're trying to look up the tables from Douglas Baldwin. Okay, so uh I have a uh a question that came in. Who do you come in from?
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+[28:39] Caleb. Caleb, I have a question coming in from Caleb who's looking up uh you know Doug Douglas Baldwin. Douglas Baldwin has a on online a sous vide, and he just came out with uh a book on Sous vide cooking. And he's uh he's a mathematician. I believe he lives uh out in Colorado somewhere near Denver, uh, and he has a bunch of tables uh in there uh that allow you to calculate uh exactly when food's temperature, when food has come up to temperature when you're cooking it uh sous vide or low temperature in in in a circulating bath.
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+[29:10] And for you know, for those of you not not hip to the fact uh this is uh you know a huge way of cooking now, is that you'll put something in a bag and then put it in water and it very gently and very evenly heat heats food. But a lot of people when they're starting out, they worry a lot, lot, lot about whether or not the inside of their food has come up to temperature. Uh and so they'll do things like stick thermometers into it, which is I think really kind of fraught with problems because uh you have to get the thermometer in the right place, otherwise you don't get the right answer. Uh and you know, a lot of times you won't get it in the right place, and then you'll un undercook something. Um, you know, the thermometer can puncture the bag and you can get leaks, and this causes problems.
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+[29:46] I most often I think thermometers cause more problems uh than than they help. So uh Douglas Baldwin, being a mathematician, along with Nathan Mirvold, who's coming out with the uh the super book uh in December, I think, uh November, December, on cooking. Nathan Mirvol is a uh the m Microsoft guy who um you know uh has a huge passion for cooking and has probably one of the greatest kitchens in the world, is working with uh Chris Young, formerly the fat duck and fifteen other cooks on on making the world's kind of uh greatest technology cookbook uh you know coming to uh Amazon uh soon. I believe you can actually pre-order it now as of last week if you've got the got the money for it. And uh anyway, so uh Nathan Miravold on a on a website called e-gullet uh a number of years ago, a good number of years ago at this point, published a bunch of tables on uh how to figure out uh how long it would take food to get up to a certain temperature in a water bath based on certain dimensions.
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+[30:39] And those tables work and are probably easier to work out than a formula. I don't know uh the formula because we haven't been able to be able to find it yet, but I would definitely look up on e-gullet Nathan Mirvold's tables, which are gonna be much easier to use than a formula, unless you're trying to create your own Excel uh document. Um without having the formula in front of me, it's hard for me to tell exactly what he's doing because he could either be calculating the food based on the fact that it's treating it as a big slab and trying to heat through the slab, or he could be talking about cylinders that are heating through. Uh but I'll tell you this uh all formulas that his formula I'm pretty sure is right. I've seen it once and it it's and it's good, and he's a mathematician, he's he's good at that sort of thing.
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+[31:18] But any formula tells you X number of inches per uh X number of minutes per pound or X number of uh minutes per inch are are egregiously false because as as things get bigger, it's not linear how much longer it takes to cook it. I tend not to use these formulas. I tend to cook a couple of things and then store in my mind how big those things are and how long they took to cook, and then just do it that way. And I'm almost never uh, you know, wrong. So I know that an egg uh takes about uh 45 minutes to an hour to get all the way up to temperature.
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+[31:47] A rolled chicken, uh, you know, like a like a tochon thing ta takes uh like an hour. I know that uh 36 inch striped bass, the size I normally get takes three hours. You know, so you kind of build up this knowledge. Uh but um I'll try and post some information on that in the forum uh for you sometime this week. Sorry, I couldn't be more accurate on the on the answers.
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+[32:10] We should go to break. All right, so we're gonna go to our second break now. Uh please call in to uh claim your pork. You can ask anything, you know, the the price of eggs, although I don't know it right now. Uh uh anything like that at 718-497-2128.
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+[32:24] That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Don't play those blues so sad. Don't play the blues say magical land. Johnson. My love.
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+[33:41] Johnson. See my love six on me tonight. Like I've never been before. Johnson. Don't sing those blues so sad.
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+[34:27] He is Mr. Johnson. Don't play those blues so sad. Because before last girl. Uh call in your questions at seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[35:07] That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Call or gets free delicious pork chops. The pastry chef at Labernadan. And so I'm just going to look at the question from Kitchen Girl. Uh Kitchen Girl without the uh it's G uh by the way, if you're looking, she has a blog, if you're looking for a blog, it's Kitchen G R L Kitchen Girl.
+
+[35:31] Uh that's her that's her blog. And um she sent us some delicious, actually, before I go into a question, some mana candy. So uh did we talk about that last time, Sasdy? Mana? No, talk about yeah.
+
+[35:41] All right, so you know, mana uh is a r real interesting substance. It uh it it when I'm when I say mana, I mean like mana from heaven, like like in the Bible. Uh and uh, you know, for you know, my whole life, you know, this is something I've you know read about and known about, uh never knew was actually a real a real thing, a real product. Until uh this guy named uh um you know uh Baruch Shruf Sharifi, the uh saffron king, uh uh gave us some. He's like, here's mana.
+
+[36:10] I'm like, what? What the hell are you talking about, mana? And then I basically I did a a lot a lot of research. It turns out that mana isn't one thing, mana is a huge variety of different products. And in here here's what they all have in common.
+
+[36:21] One, they're sweet. Okay. Two, they appear as if from nowhere. Uh they you know, they're not they're not cultivated. They're they're wild things, they're providential.
+
+[36:30] They're uh, you know, they they're kind of their their bonuses. Uh and uh and so you know, those are basically the two main main criteria. Most of them are actually dried uh sap from trees. Uh, you know, probably you know, a lot of it hasn't been researched, actually, strangely, but uh little bugs will chew on the undersides of leaves, the sap will come out, then dry up, uh, and and that dried sap is mana, mixed mixed along with you know, little bits of twigs and leaves and uh other nonsense like that. Another way mana is made is is actually it's it's honeydew, which means that a bug bites into the leaf.
+
+[37:05] Uh and this is honeydew is you know what aphids make, you know, here in the States, and ants collect it. So what what honeydew is is a bug will bite a juicy leaf or stem of a plant, and the pressure of the sap is so uh strong compared to the bug that it literally shoots uh it shoots sap through the bug and out it's behind. Uh and that's honeydew. I mean it's gross to say it that way, but it's basically like force-pumped bug poop that then uh dries up on the outside into a delicious sweet substance. Uh anyway, so they go out into the desert.
+
+[37:39] Most of these manas happen in the Middle East, you know, kind of you know, uh, because it's dry enough there for these manas to form. And uh people will go out in the morning with twigs and beat on bushes and catch this mana that comes down uh you know from you know from the bushes and and use it. And uh there's dozens and dozens of different types, but there's a there's a candy that's been made uh, I guess, in you know, the entire that entire area, uh, you know, Iraq, Iran, uh, and uh called gaz in Iran. I forget what it's called in uh in in Iraq, but uh Kitchen Girl sent us some of this mana candy, which is basically just mana uh with a little bit, you know, more sugar and and and nuts in it. I forget whether they put egg whites in.
+
+[38:21] I have the ingredient list on the on the blog. Uh, but uh it's it's delicious and uh it's got a really unique texture that uh you know that's it's weird, it's kind of chewy and but it breaks, and it's very mana-like. Or you can get the straight mana, which is delicious, you know, uh mixed in in bourbon, uh which we which is incredibly delicious. You can get that from Saffron King. Uh he has a website, the Saffron King.
+
+[38:44] And this stuff is is crazy because that the not so much the mana candy, that didn't change as you as you bit at him uh all the time. That was more of a textural thing, the candy. Uh, but um the actual mana itself, every bite you take of it tastes a little bit different than the bite you had before, and different people have different perceptions of it. Uh I wrote an article in the uh New York Times on it, which uh you know you can you can search for and we we did a blog post on it. But anyway, it's a long way of saying kitchen girl sent us a question.
+
+[39:12] Uh you know, the she very kindly sent us the uh the mana, and then she she has a question. She's working on uh a pate de fouie recipe uh pat I never know how to pronounce it, whether it's patate fruit or pate fruit. I'm terrible at that. And and pastry chefs always laugh at me and correct me, as do all the Frenchies at the school, but you know, crap on them. Uh so anyway, so she's working on Michael Osconis's uh his recipe here, and uh basically what you do is is you're cooking the um fru uh fruit puree to a hundred uh and eighty degrees Fahrenheit uh uh with sugar, then you add pectin, sugar, and glucose syrup, and then bring it up to a higher temperature, 225 uh Fahrenheit, and then pour it into a silpat tray to set.
+
+[39:51] Um and she's having problems with her sugar uh with with the sorry, the fruit burning in the in the puree when she's doing it. Um and ph I don't disagree. I'm sure she is uh having some problems. She says that at 180 degrees Fahrenheit, her fruit is starting to brown and sometimes burn, uh, and that it only gets worse when she adds more sugar. And she's thinking that what's happening is her pan actually is getting too hot.
+
+[40:16] Uh so she's actually getting scorching because her pan is too hot. Uh now I don't have a lot of uh experience with this, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make some random stabs at ways to try and fix this, and then I'm actually going to try and get the actual answer, and I'll post it on in the forums at cookingissues.com. Um but um I guarantee that Michael uh is probably using an induction burner, which is going to be much more accurate as temperature control and so much less likely to scorch than if you're using an open flame burner uh and a pan, especially, you know, I don't know uh you know how good the temperature you know conduction is there, but um anyway, uh 225, you should actually be okay. It shouldn't actually burn if at 225 if you if you have good temperature control at the bottom of the pan. And I know this because uh I've I've been trying to test out um caramelization of uh of sugars and uh and fruits in pressure cookers at temperatures well in excess of that without uh burning.
+
+[41:18] Uh and so you should be able to do it. So I would uh I would use an induction pan that's got very accurate temperature control to prevent scorching and maybe go slow. Uh and you know she asks at the end, she has a circular immersion circulator, can she do it in a water bath? No, there's no way to get uh a water bath up to um up to 220 225 unless you put it under pressure, but then you're you're you're ruining the whole point of boiling it isn't the temperature actually. It's it's at a certain temperature you've gotten rid of enough water that when it cools down, it'll have enough solids.
+
+[41:51] So if you if you do something in a water bath, you're not boiling the water off. And any of these pectin and candy recipes with sugar are basically requiring that you remove a certain amount of water. And the way that you guarantee that you've removed it is by reaching a certain temperature at atmospheric pressure. Now, you could I've never tried this actually, you could maybe do a very low temperature pat fui in uh in uh in a in a rotor vap it's kind of an interesting question you know what I mean you like if you evaporate the water off of uh off of uh you know uh you know a a mixture under vacuum I should be able I've never thought of this before crap this might work yeah you like it like we could do a low temperature one of these because the the pectin needs to make it to a certain temperature to uh to work right so it needs to get up to at least regular boiling but I could take something to regular boiling then throw it in the in the roto vap I could set the roto vapid boiling right dissolve the pectin in it right and then and then evaporate off the water and I know exactly how much I know how much water because I can look up I know seriously like I can I I can figure out like what my finished total solid solids content is pectin is one of these a pectin's a hydrocolloid it's natural we've been using it for you know since there's been fruit we've been using pectin. I don't want to hear that we're chemicals or any crap like that.
+
+[43:09] Pectin's great but standard pectins that you use for these kinds of things pat fui they they uh first of all they need to be heated up uh to I think to boiling or roughly there close to there to to work properly but also they require two things acidity and high soluble solids. They need uh uh and what that means is something like sugar that's gonna bind all the water that's that that's left there so that the gel uh so that the pectin gels and forms a good uh thing that's why if you try to make a jelly and there's not enough acid it doesn't work and why you like you know you always add not just for flavor to make a tart but to make it work and why if you don't cook your jelly long enough it's not going to set right that's how pectin works. Caramels, on the other hand, are basically just solidifying sugar by removing water. Or, you know, f candies, rather, caramel, you're actually breaking the breaking the sugar down. Anyway, that's basically how it works.
+
+[43:55] But I should be able to do a a uh pectin, right, at a at a at a much lower temperature using a standard pectin and a rotovap, making an uncooked uh thing with traditional pectin. Maybe I'll try it. Of course, you know, you can use you can use different kinds of pectins and get the same uh effect without having to go to such high soluble solids using a kind of pectin called uh um L LMA Lomethoxyambidated pectin, which you know, uh whatever, but most people don't have access to that. Of course, most people don't have access to a roto vap either, so what the hell am I talking about? Uh okay.
+
+[44:25] We should tell people that you're teaching a class uh on the 28th for high-tech cocktails at the school if they're interested. I am yes, you are. When? The July twenty eighth. Okay, July twenty-eighth.
+
+[44:36] Uh Nils Noran, the head of uh the uh whole Megillah at the French Culinary Institute, and I uh are cooking a uh teaching a high-tech uh cocktail class for the public. Yeah, for the public. And basically what you do is you come to the French Culinary Institute and we'll do, you know, like two or two or three cocktails that you know that you can't possibly do at home using like a using a rotary evaporator and liquid nitrogen. Well, you could, I mean, if you're Nathan Miravold, you could do anything at home. But you know, uh we use uh most of you can't do at home.
+
+[45:06] And then we're gonna actually teach you some technology that you can use, like for instance, how to clarify lime juice in in 20 minutes. This is something we do. It's actually, you know, that technique is exactly one year one year old. Wow. Yeah, cool.
+
+[45:18] Uh anyway. So yeah, come uh look go to uh www.Frenchculinary.com and uh you can look up that class. Um you know that's uh we're actually headed back there. We got a lot of cocktail tests to do uh back at the at the French culinary. I'm slightly, I have to say, I'm slightly disappointed.
+
+[45:36] So am I that nobody called in to claim their pork. I enjoyed all your email questions. Uh please send more email questions. But if you can call in live, it gives me the opportunity to speak to you, which I enjoy. I'm you know, I like talking over the phone.
+
+[45:50] This is why I never answer emails, but I do speak over the phone if you can reach me. Uh so next week we're gonna be here live again. With Harold McGee. Warold McGee. Harold McGee will be our telephone guest.
+
+[46:00] He's not gonna be live in the studio, but he's gonna call in and he'll be here answering your questions as well. So if you don't care what I have to say about your questions, perhaps you will care about uh what Harold McGee has to say about your questions. And next week the say a number will be the same 718-497-2128. Uh Cooking Issues Today has been brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass fed, and grass finished beef.
+
+[46:25] I'm Dave Arnold, and this is Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Oh, you daddy got me on the score. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] My name's McKenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months.
+
+[0:32] I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who are really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com.
+
+[0:56] GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
+
+[1:24] Supposed to meet my baby. Between it and it's late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. You are listening to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:41] I'm Dave Arnold. We're coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network. It's a show Cooking Issues, a show where you call in and we solve your cooking issues, related or not. Uh today, Cooking Issues is sponsored by Acme Smoked Fish, located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Acme has been a mainstay in New York's culinary landscape for over fifty-five years.
+
+[1:59] Using old world recipes, Acne produces the finest smoked salmon, whitefish, and sable that the Cerning Palets demand. For information on where to find Acme, Blue Hill Bay or Ruby Bay products, visit WW.acme Smokedfish.com. And they actually supply most of the most of the big places in the city. So even if you don't know you've had Acme, you've probably had Acme. Now, the number to call in to the radio show, we're here between 12 and 1245 every Tuesday, is 718 497 2128.
+
+[2:25] That's 718-497-2128. And we already have our first caller for the day. Hello? We got uh we got Jordan on the line. Yeah, I'm right here.
+
+[2:37] Hey, how are you doing? So what's your question? Hey, I'm doing pretty well. Um, so uh I want to throw a barbecue for my wife's birthday, and I've been experimenting with uh just basically trying to cook ribs in a sous vide. I've got a sous vide supreme.
+
+[2:55] Um I've been experimenting uh cooking the ribs in that. Um trying to get them to the point where they're like where they're fairly soft and yielding, and at the same time they'll still stay on the bone. Because my my plan is to basically keep them in the machine until guests arrive, and then I just want to finish them on the grill. Right. Right?
+
+[3:15] Right. That's uh that's a good call. May I just say before we go any further that you are in luck for being the first caller today? You have won some Heritage Foods Boneless Barbecue Riblets. So No kidding.
+
+[3:27] Yeah, no kidding. So that should go uh that should go uh pretty, you know, pretty well with your barbecue. But so the cool. Here's the thing. So uh typically when we're gonna do a rib, you can do a rib at any temperature between about fifty four four Celsius, which is rare.
+
+[3:41] I wouldn't recommend that because it's kind of uh weird. People aren't used to it. All the way up to a traditional temperature of like 80, but I would recommend something closer to 60. It's a little bit pink on the inside still, but it's uh you know it's it's really uh it's it's a good nice temperature. And the good thing about cooking uh this way and what we're talking about is low temperature cooking.
+
+[4:01] For those of you not aware what we're doing is we're sealing the food in a bag and we're using a water bath to very accurately keep the temperature and cook it for a long time. Now what are the advantages of doing it this way as opposed to traditional that we've talked about you know the advantage you want is that the meat's going to stay on the bone it's not going to shred and break apart. So you'll be able even though it's very tender and 60 I would do it for about 48 hours, 48 to 56 hours in that range. Okay that's that's the part I was having trouble with is I've got uh you know I was looking at some stuff from Baldwin and uh a couple other things online and everybody was saying oh yeah you know twelve to twenty four hours tops for the ribs and I just they weren't coming out where I wanted them at all. You said 60 Celsius.
+
+[4:41] 60, yeah what what what temperature were you about one about 140? Well 140. It was 60 is like a magic number because it's 140. It's easy to remember. What what what temperature were you using?
+
+[4:51] Uh I tried everything between uh about one thirty five to one fifty five. But the the factor that I was not getting right with the time to cook and I was afraid if I left it that long I was afraid if I left it uh you know forty eight hours or more I was concerned number one that I was gonna lose some structural integrity in the bone itself and and number two I was just I was concerned it just wasn't gonna stay on the bones. But you're saying that even at 48 hours it's gonna stick to the bone enough that I can toss it on the on the grill, it's not going to fall into the rack or anything. Absolutely. Let me let me put it to you this way, and uh we'll we'll we'll leave it leave it at this.
+
+[5:29] Right or wrong, after 24 hours it had the texture of skirt steak. Awesome. Yeah, right, is that right? After 24 hours, they should have had the texture right about of skirt stake, and after another twenty-four to thirty hours, it'll have the texture of short ribs. Okay, yeah, that's that's much closer to what I'm looking for.
+
+[5:45] Yeah. Alrighty, super. Look at uh stay on the line because we've got to figure out a way to get you these uh these boneless barbecue riblets, and thanks so much for calling in. I think we already have we already have another collar, so we're we're doing well. All right, so uh I have some questions about uh preserving cilantro.
+
+[6:03] Essentially, every single time I buy it, it seems to turn into an unusable pile of mush and all the aromatics just leave it pretty much right away. So I was wondering if there's a way to render it more stable. I don't have a roto vap or anything, so I'm looking for a more conventional method. Right. Cilantro actually, even in the rotovap when you wrote a vap, but it doesn't stay uh stable.
+
+[6:23] This is actually uh an interesting question. Uh the next segment we have, um Harold McGee's gonna be on. He's done a lot of uh tests with preserving uh things like herbs and berries. My guess the problem is is that my my guess is the way to to do it is gonna be like a quick blanch in shock, but that's probably not what you're what you're looking for. And and the other one would be to keep the moisture level not too high so it's not gonna rot, you know.
+
+[6:44] Uh right. Uh I do dry it. Yeah, oh yeah, so you're drying it still towel. Yeah, you dry it with a paper towel. I mean you could physically dry it, but it's not the same as fresh.
+
+[6:54] I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna defer this question and Nastash is gonna remind me to ask uh McGee. Uh m Nastasha's gonna ask me to remind McGee to to answer this question, but I would guess he's gonna he's gonna say something uh of the nature of making sure air can get to it in your fridge so it's not gonna turn bad, making sure that it's not wet when it goes in. He might say something even like allowing water to get to the stems, but I don't know. And he might suggest something like a blanch just to kill anything that's on it, which is what he does with berries. This is not my uh like uh not my exact area of expertise, but you're lucky that McGee's gonna be calling in today because it's right up his alley, so we'll make sure to ask him.
+
+[7:28] Okay, well actually, just beyond it, Ronnie. I mean, also the aromatics on a plant are just so fleeting. It seems like no matter what you do to it, that they're just gonna leave pretty much right away. I know it's true. You know, I've been doing a lot of experiments recently with uh, you know, when you when we rotovap, a lot of times I'll rotovap uh with for those of you who don't know, low temperature distillation, we do it in a rotor evaporator.
+
+[7:47] We do it with alcohol just because it's the only way to really lock down those aromatics, and when you do it with water, you really those aromatics they they leave very quickly. We've recently been doing experiments with uh freezing uh with liquid nitrogen to try and keep those aromatics and it works pretty well. Uh, but you know, I'm not ready to necessarily make any statements on it. Do you have liquid nitrogen lying around? Uh no, I don't, but that doesn't mean I couldn't get some.
+
+[8:10] Right. I mean you could try. I mean, like that that might be good, keeping it like ul ultra frozen like that. Now it's gonna go black as soon as it thaws out, unless you blanch it beforehand, but then you won't have the aromatic. So it you're always gonna try you're always gonna trade, because we do a lot of work with liquid nitrogen where we powder fresh herbs.
+
+[8:24] When you powder the fresh herbs, when they thaw even with liquid nitrogen, they go black because you've ruptured the uh uh when you blend them, you rush rupture the tissues, and so they they go black and you get that characteristic not so good aroma. So what we'll always do is blanch uh in boiling water and shock, and then that'll preserve it. But you're still you're gonna lose some of that. I mean, uh I haven't again I'll ask McGee this, but you know, it's very hard to get that fresh off of the plant kind of uh kind of a flavor. But yeah, this is well I'll bring up both of these things with McGee because I know he thinks a lot about this, specifically this problem.
+
+[8:55] Because especially because he grows his own stuff because he lives in California, you know. Right. So I apologize I'm gonna have to defer to later in the segment, but we'll get we'll get an answer for you. Is that sound good? Wait, who am I speaking to by the way?
+
+[9:04] Absolutely. My name's Chris. Hey Chris, thanks thanks for calling in. We'll get we'll we'll get some answers for you before the hours. Also I just had a quick question about uh sous vide coffee.
+
+[9:13] I've been just taking my coffee brows and putting them into a bag and basically doing a uh a high duration, low temperature. Right? Like around sixty-eight C. Similar to like Kyoto higher than like a cold coffee, higher than Kyoto style coffee. Yeah, much higher than a cold coffee, but you know, it sort of doesn't leach out all the astringency or anything like that.
+
+[9:32] Uh provided you don't do it for two days. Yeah, how how do you like it? Uh I like it a lot actually. You know, it seems to strike a good balance as far as having a lot of coffee solids in there versus a lot of the nasty stuff that people don't like. And then you coffee filter it and drink it, or what do you do?
+
+[9:49] Right, exactly. I just do a coarse filtration. Huh. Well we'll t we'll test that out. I've done the the cold and I've done a lot of work with uh you know with normal like espresso type stuff, but I've never done any kind of in-between work.
+
+[9:59] We've done it with tea. We've never done it with uh with coffee. That's interesting. You know, you should post something to uh our forums and let's get a discussion going on that and I'll I'll try and uh you know, we uh W dotcookingissues dot com forward slash forums. Post something like that, because uh you know I think that's interesting.
+
+[10:13] I'm sure a lot of the people uh you know who troll around uh will think that's interesting too. Maybe we can get something something started, huh? All right, great. Alright, cool. Thank thanks a lot for calling in.
+
+[10:23] We have another caller. We do? Yeah. Oh, hey, we have another caller. Great.
+
+[10:28] Hello. Hi. Hey, who am I speaking with? This is Nathan. Hey, Nathan.
+
+[10:33] Um, so I had a question. I I remember a post you made a couple couple months ago, I guess, on cooking issues about um how carbonation was perceived. And you mentioned sort of offhand that you tried stuff that was carbonated or not carbonated, but force forced gas with NO2. That you've tried dissolving in liquids and what that tasted like. Alright, well n uh, you know, uh N2O nitrous and CO2 are the two readily available gases that um that are soluble to a large degree in water.
+
+[11:06] Uh I don't know and also alcohol uh and also CO2 is very soluble in alcohol, uh and also I don't know about CO2, but N2O, I guess CO2 as well, is also soluble in liquid fats. So these are um you know they're very soluble, which is why you can put a lot of it in and why you can get a big effect. Other gases, you know, other ones that I know of that you know are food grade aren't as as soluble, so you're not gonna get the same kind of now you could definitely get some sort of maybe aroma or flavor out of putting some gases in, and some noxious gases can clearly go in. But I haven't experimented with any other gases because basically, you know, the you get the effect of carbonation, which is what I'm looking for out of the CO2, and then we use the the nitrous as a as kind of a balancing act. So if I want a lively beverage, I want a lot of bubbles in it, and the the the number of bubbles in it is determined by the total pressure dissolved gas in it because that's what's determining how fast it it's bubbling, right?
+
+[12:01] And also the bubble size for a given liquid and a bunch of other things. But uh if you added that much CO2, it would rip your face off. You know, your nose would be you know we've had I like actually overcarbonated things, but you know, but yeah, I like my face being ripped off. But the uh the the thing is is in order to make it a a really lively bellet beverage but more mellow, we we add the N2O. The side effect of the N2O is that it's sweet, right?
+
+[12:23] Now, there are situations, like I'm sure people have heard of uh beer gas. So beer gas is a mixture of CO2 and straight nitrogen, and the reason that they put the nitrogen in is because they want to keep their kegs at a high pressure so that they can push uh beer out at a reasonable rate. But they don't want to increase the bubble load by adding too much CO2. So they're adding a relatively insoluble gas, right? Nitrogen to it, so that it can uh so that it basically just adds extra pressure.
+
+[12:52] I believe also it's nitrogen and not CO2 that's in the Guinness widget that's sitting in the in the bottom of Guinness. And I think what's going on there is they're literally just forcing some bubbles into it to create kind of a creamy head, even though they're not increasing the actual total amount of CO2 in it, right? So there are reasons to use other other gases, but I don't know uh uh anything that would help necessarily in a in a carbonation setting. What do you have any uh ideas or things you want to try? No, I was just wondering because you said you know, CO2 is kind of sour tasting and two O is kind of sweet tasting if there were any other things that would sort of give you other flavors.
+
+[13:27] Well, poisonous, obviously. I mean I'm sure we could put some you know sulfur containing gases in that would dissolve in just fine, but it would make it taste god awful. You know what I mean? But uh but I haven't I haven't uh you know maybe someone will you know call in or post uh something they think is uh good to try, but they're they're the two readily available food grade gases that dissolve to uh a fairly uh large degree into into your you know, into beverages. So that those are the ones that's why we use them.
+
+[13:55] Gotcha, cool. All right, thank you very much. Thanks for calling in. All right. So uh that uh brings us uh pretty close.
+
+[14:02] We're I'm gonna talk about one thing before we go to our first break, but coming up on the next uh right after the next break, uh Harold McGee is gonna be here. He's gonna help us answer answer some questions. One thing I wanted to address, we had an email question. Oh, uh for your calls, by the way, please call in to 718-497-2128. That's uh 718-497-2128.
+
+[14:23] Uh so we had a really interesting uh question come in by email, and don't worry, all the email questions we'll get to, so don't worry if I'm not doing yours first. Um someone uh called in, uh Matt Matt, how you pronounce Matt's name? Hasa, has Hasa? Has uh uh he his restaurant group uh is using someone who grows their uh own cattle and there's using ultrasound to check the marbling of the meat while while they're alive. So basically you're taking a cow, they're walking, they're putting in an ultrasound uh on the cow, and they're trying to measure uh the fat content of the cow.
+
+[14:55] So the the the idea is trying to get a higher percentage of prime marbled uh meat than you uh otherwise would. And said he had never uh heard about this tech technique before and he wanted to uh know something about it, know about uh these guys running tests. Um this is uh kind of I don't know how well I don't know how often it's used nowadays, but using ultrasound to test the fat level of animals has a fairly long history. They've been doing it since at least uh the eighties. Um and there's a bunch of different ways.
+
+[15:23] So basically uh lean muscle meat and uh fat have uh different uh properties for ultrasound. The speed of ultrasound, uh ultrasound is just basically any uh sound wave faster than you can hear it uh than you can hear over about 20,000 uh cycles per second. And it can penetrate uh through tissue, which is why they use it to check for babies for ultrasounds and for medical diagnostics stuff. They can take pictures of it. But uh even simply without an image, uh, you can tell based on the speed that the ultrasound is going through, uh, whether it's going through more fat or more lean.
+
+[15:55] You could tell because fat also reflects ultrasounds in different ways. Uh, it also uh can I think shift the frequency as it goes through. So there's there's uh several different techniques they can use with ultrasounds to take a live animal uh in a very quick, you know, easy-to-do way out in the field with a with a piece of machinery and uh take a picture and figure out um figure out kind of uh a best guess as to what the uh tech you know the inside of the muscle is like in terms of its fat content. Uh and for in general, there's a lot of interesting work being done with ultrasounds, and a pay a review paper you might be interested in is ultrasonic innovations in the food industry from the laboratory to commercial productions uh by uh Alec uh Alex Patist et al. And that was in uh what journal?
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+[16:39] The Journal for Innovative Food Science and Emerging Technologies in July 2007. Uh thanks for calling in and please post a question to the blog on that. I'm interested in talking about ultrasound and meat quality more. And this is our first break. You're listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network.
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+[16:56] Two. One, two, three. Just let me walk the new tier than you tell you that you should. Hello. Uh it's Dave Arnold.
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+[20:02] You are listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with your cooking issues, and if we're lucky, we get to solve them. Our number here is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And we're coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 Eastern Standard Time. And we have a real treat today because uh calling in as our call-in guest is Harold McGee.
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+[20:29] And Harold McGee, for those of you that don't know, there's probably a couple of you that don't know, uh, is the uh ultimate all-time master blaster of science as it relates to delicious things in the kitchen. So not industrial science, but the science of how to make things taste better. And he's calling in from San Francisco. Harold, you there? I am Dave.
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+[20:48] Hey, good to talk to you. How you doing? Likewise, pretty well, thanks. How about you? Yeah, I'm doing well, doing well.
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+[20:53] So uh actually, you know, uh Harold, we have a caller calling in right now, so you want to just uh you want to just take their question real quick and then we'll uh then we'll we'll hit some of the email questions we've got. Sure. Alrighty. So uh who do we have? We have Derek on the line.
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+[21:07] Hi, Dave. Hey. Great to talk to both of you. Um big fans, both both you, Dave and Harold. I I was thinking the other day, um, would it would you get more flavor out of your stocks if you started with distilled water because it tends to it pulls in stuff such as carbon dioxide, would it be more would it pull in more flavor from uh whatever meat or what you were using as the base?
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+[21:33] Do you think? Harold, what do you think? I I I I wouldn't think you get much of an effect because it's going to become non-distilled water pretty quick as soon as you put stuff into it. And you typically uh what do you think, Harold? Uh I agree completely.
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+[21:47] Yeah. There's uh I mean it's it's it's distilled and nice and pure, but the moment you put anything in it, it's not. And uh the difference between I think, you know, uh uh a few parts per million of of minerals in tap water and uh and distilled water by the time you've made the stock is not gonna be detectable. But I mean maybe it depends also on how hard your particular water is. I mean I there the the Jap the you know the Japanese chefs insist that there's a huge difference in combucks uh if if the water is excessively hard and they so they say that you know at the European water, it's hard for them to make a good uh combu stock, so they use uh bottled water.
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+[22:25] And of course, for beer brewing it's important, but I just I don't I don't know that for regular stock, right, Harold? I mean wouldn't you wouldn't you think? I mean, yeah, the thing about combu is that it it's so delicate and uh and you're d extracting for a relatively short period of time, you know, just a few minutes. And uh so I think uh, you know, something where you're throwing in meat bones and vegetables and cooking for hours, uh it's gonna be much less important. Of course, you know, if you do the experiment, you taste them blind and you, you know, get back to us, we'll post it because they you know there's no I always say that, you know, whatever I think is uh you know secondary to what you actually observe when you do it.
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+[23:06] Awesome. All right. Exactly. All right, thank well thanks so much uh for calling in. And uh but before we go to anyone else, Harold, d I don't know if you heard before we had someone calling in wanted to preserve the uh the kind of the aromatics in cilantro and I said that you might be the the best person to talk to about the best way to keep cilantro in top condition to try and make it smell like you just took it out of your garden.
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+[23:27] Do you have any tips on that? Boy it's it's tough with with fresh herbs because the those flavor compounds are really fugitive and the cells are delicate and when they dry out, you know everything gets scrambled up inside the cells and um i in the case of cilantro you know the the more that you uh beat it up, if you try to make a pesto for example, the flavor actually becomes much milder. And so what you want to do I think probably is um uh just dry it as gently as possible just to to minimize the damage to the cells right he says he was doing it with a paper towel but also I think people store it too tightly a wrap you almost want those like uh those bags that allow air to go through them right because I think he's also having loss in the refrigerator. I think he said they were turning brown and and kind of muddy you know what do you think? Uh-huh well yeah I think uh you know if if it's if it's a matter of keeping it alive, you know pres uh by preserving I thought you meant you know drying or something like that.
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+[24:28] Uh uh if you're if you just want to keep them alive, then yeah, what I would do is um uh you know, cut the cut the stems to get a fresh uh end, and then put them in a glass of water and then put a bag around the glass. Right. Uh you know, put a a rubber band around the bag and that gives you uh prevents the the cilantro from drying out in the refrigerator, keeps them cool, gives them a supply of water. Uh they're not gonna be happy in the dark, so that won't last forever, but it's better than nothing. And th and there you go, there's the answer from the source.
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+[25:01] We got another interesting one that I think is uh up your alley. Uh Harold, uh Jeff Saltz writes in, wrote to Nastasha, uh you know, we had take email questions as well. And says, if we can whip cream with sugar and we can whip egg yolks with sugar, then why can't we whip creme anglaise? And just to verify this morning before we came out to the show, I tried to whip some creme anglaise and indeed it does not whip. Um, I also know that there's some problems sometimes people have problems whipping uh cream even straight cream that's been heated.
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+[25:29] I mean what do you what do you think? What do you think's going on here? Well, in the case of the creme anglaise, uh it it's true that uh cream can be can be whipped and egg yolks and egg whites can both be whipped into a foam. Uh but that's true of the r raw versions of those things. Right.
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+[25:46] Creme anglaise has been cooked. So uh uh and in the case of cream, whipped cream, y it only whips if it's cold. So it's uh the the conditions aren't right, the proteins have been denatured and the temperature is wrong. But I didn't I mean I took the creme en glaze and cooled it down to like back to fridge temperature, still doesn't whip. There's some there's something about heating cream and then cooling it that may do you need to wait a long time.
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+[26:10] What are you disrupting in cream that stops it from whipping like that? Boy, uh with with cream b all by itself, I mean the in in a creme en glaze, of course, the cream is the the the surfaces of the uh oil droplets are gonna get coated by the egg proteins and by you know whatever else you might have in there, sugars in the way, so it's just gonna make it much more difficult. If in the case of just plain old cream, heating it and then cooling it back down offhand, I can't see why that would um uh make it harder to whip. Yeah, I mean I've never done the experiment myself, but I know people who have done it and said that they were able to do it, and I've known people who've done it and said that they weren't able to do it. So I don't know I don't I don't know where that where that is.
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+[26:52] But I know that uh the you know the the fat inside the the droplet takes a while to get organized again after it's been heated. You know, you heat it up, it becomes m molten inside, and then as you chill it down, it it begins to crystallize. And I think you know, maybe maybe it just takes a while for you to get that the optimum crystal structure so that when you whip it the the edges of the crystals break through the membrane and begin to stick to each other and and you get a good foam. That makes sense almost like the theory of uh aging uh ice cream base. Right.
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+[27:28] Yeah, yeah. All right, Jeff. Well, I hope that uh answers uh your question. Um let me see whether we have anything. Ah, here's one that uh Harold, you'll enjoy.
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+[27:37] Uh uh Val called in and said, uh I love the radio show. I'm traveling to Turkey in three weeks. I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as to where I could find some good selep donderma flower in Turkey. And uh for those of you that know, like uh part of the current interest in uh Celep uh here in the United States is due to an article that uh Harold wrote uh a number of years ago in the New York Times on stretchy ice creams. Uh and Celep is an orchid powder uh that is uh available in Turkey but can't be exported because it's not that it's endangered, but they just don't have enough, they don't allow exports of it.
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+[28:13] And uh if you add this to ice cream and then beep the ice cream vigorously it forms a stretchy, stretchy ice cream. It's kind of unlike uh any other ice cream and it's a traditional uh kind of product over there but I don't know of any s I don't never been to Turkey. I've only ever had it smuggled back for me. What about you uh Harold do you know of any? I've never been to Turkey either so um yeah I don't I I really don't know.
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+[28:35] Yeah. There are a couple of uh people who um uh who blog who are who know the the Turkey in the Middle East in general really well and who blog and you might uh check their sites and ask them uh one of them is uh Nisa Helu, A N I S S A H E L O U. I forget the the uh the name of her site, but uh she knows that part of the world really really well and she could probably give you some good advice. Right and it's important to get a a good source because uh different salap powders are very different in how much of the active principle they have in it. And uh you know also like they sell some that's just meant for for drinks and it doesn't necessarily have the same uh capability to make uh ice cream stretchy.
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+[29:21] Um the two times I had it were smuggled back by uh interns and they just you know they packed it. Uh one time though the the my intern's mom got stopped in the airport for coming from Turkey with you know a vacuum bag thing of you know kind of powder and spent three hours talking to you know a very irate customers official about how it was not any sort of drug product that they were trying to bring back in and it didn't uh you know it it didn't make it in. But you know, I would get as much as you can as as you can. You're gonna use uh anywhere from half to one percent in your recipe, so that gives you any idea of how much you need to buy. And uh Val asked one more question.
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+[29:57] Uh, what would the results be with salap ice cream if you froze it and spun it in a Paco Jet? Alas, this will not work. Uh the Paco Jet, I've never had any luck trying to paco jet it. It needs to be manually beaten. After it's frozen, you need to manually freeze it, uh you know, freeze it and then manually beat it.
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+[30:12] And that's the only way to get that texture. Would you agree, Harold, or no? Yeah, that that's right. Paco Jet is is great for a lot of things, but it what it's basically doing is chopping the the mixture into tiny little bits, and that's the absolute reverse of what you want to do with uh salap ice cream. You want to create this uh this network like a gluten network in bread dough, and that's what gives gives it that wonderful stretchy quality.
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+[30:37] All right, all right. So we're about to go out to our second break. But before we do, I'm gonna give you the number to call in one more time. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
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+[30:48] We're coming back with Harold McGee. This is cooking issues. And you're slipping you. You're more than alright. You know you're out of sight.
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+[31:11] You've got a shape, bigger mama. That's keep me up tight. Keep me up tight. You know you're out of sight. Hey, the way you do the thing you do, the way you kiss me too.
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+[31:41] The way you do the thing you do. The way you kiss the tea. You know you're out of sight. Oh! You got a sweet disposition.
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+[32:07] Oh, always right. You got a sweet disposition. You know you're always right. You know just what you're doing, baby. You know you're out of sight.
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+[32:26] Out. You're the hand. You saw him, baby. You are listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold.
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+[32:43] I'm here in the studio with Nastasha Lopez. And on the telephone, we have Harold McGee. Uh so you have uh one last chance to call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And I'll sweeten up the pot.
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+[32:58] We will give away another packet of riblets if you call in. Uh anyway, so uh Harold, we have a couple more qu email questions we have to get through. Uh so why don't we take take care of those? Um we had someone call uh calling actually last week or right in last week who's interested in kind of Doug Bald Baldwin's uh formula for calculating the uh calculating when meat is gonna be done. And I know you've done uh some work on it, so Douglas Baldwin has this this kind of rather complex, well, not for him, because he's a math professor, but complex uh formula for determining uh the you know the heat of uh uh you know w when meat's gonna get to it.
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+[33:37] But uh w what do you what do you think is the best thing is I think the best thing is to just cook a couple of things and get a feel for the size of thing and then just go go that way. What do you think? Yeah I agree. It's uh it is true that you you can calculate uh how long it's gonna take for something to heat up in a water bath and uh it takes a lot longer than you think because the um the difference between the temperature of the bath and the temperature of the food is relatively small and that means that um you know there's there's not much of a uh and uh a push behind the heat on the outside get to the inside. So it it it takes takes quite a while but you know the the calculations great uh they're they can't account for all the variables that you're gonna encounter like variations in the the thickness of the meat and the uh you know the effect of the wrapping whether if if the if the wrap isn't isn't perfectly sealed if you've got a couple of bubbles here and there it's it's gonna slow things down.
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+[34:38] So I agree the best thing to do is just to have several packages and check every once in a while, give them a good good long time and maybe use the formula as uh as a guide. Yeah. But uh but test it. Yeah I've never had really much of a need to know exactly how long it's gonna take but uh but also Nathan Mirvold posted a bunch of things a number of years back on eGullit. Um oh I see we have another we have another caller.
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+[35:01] Uh who do we have on the line? Hello? Hello? Yeah, hi, how you doing? Um uh I'm a chef working uh on the East Coast and uh I have a couple of questions about Sue V cookery.
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+[35:14] Um specific situations we're in right now that we're trying to kind of fine tune. Right. I I don't want to mention anything specific 'cause we're still kind of operating under the radar. Right, right. Um so right now we're uh working with a couple of different cuts of meat.
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+[35:29] Um some have been really successful, some we're still trying to you know, they're very good, but they still could be a lot better. Right. Uh right now we're working with a uh a s a thick cut pork chop which is kind of cut from the shoulder end so it has a high fat content. And um, you know, we've tried cooking it at around fifty-two, fifty-four degrees Celsius or anywhere between four hours, twelve hours, up to twenty-four hours. And uh the problem is that you know the fat isn't breaking down in a in an appealing way.
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+[35:59] You know, we used to cook it conventionally in a more of a hot oven and we get like a nice sort of caramelization on the fat. Um and it would be very pal palatable. Right. And uh, you know, at those those low temperatures it would just kind of be like hammy and and you know, just ha not have a nice mouthfeel. So we upped the temp up to seventy degrees.
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+[36:17] Too high, yeah. And we ran it. Yeah. We ran it with a thermocoupler uh just to check the temp. We'd pull it at like fifty-four degrees.
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+[36:24] And that was better. Yeah, but still that's too high, right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it was still a little like it got a little hammy.
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+[36:30] Um, you know, it wasn't perfect. Then we brought it down to sixty-four degrees. Um and that was kind of a nice, you know, medium. We're kinda happy with that, and we just basically would run it uh in the thermocoupler till we hit, you know, fifty four degrees Celsius. On the inside.
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+[36:44] So I just wonder if uh yeah, I was wondering if you had any comments on that or any ideas of directions we can go. So low temp fat's not gonna really render out when you're cooking uh low temp, and that's kind of one of the main things to work around when you're doing this kind of work. And in fact, you know, Harold will agree, like that's one of the things, you know, he you don't particularly like some of these dishes because we don't get things like the like the rendering of fat. But I'll g I'll give you uh uh agree, Harold or no. Yeah, yeah.
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+[37:09] Exactly. But you know, uh one technique you might want to look into. First of all, are you are you doing a pre-sear on your meat or no? We're not no, we haven't tried that yet. I would do a pre-sear on the meat that's gonna start getting the flavor going, and also you notice you're gonna pick up a lot more color a lot quicker uh on the finish.
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+[37:23] Uh right. But uh you might do something we we do called uh low temp for insurance purposes. And so what that is is you cook the meat to like a a medium, like uh you want the inside to be whatever you want to be, you know, fif fifty and sh fifty high fifties and change or like uh sixty somewhere in there, right? You cook it through, then you chill the whole thing down, then you throw it in a blazing hot oven, right? Now you're just focused on the external texture of the of the chop and and and you can pull it as soon as it looks good because the inside's already been cooked and it's gonna be warm enough.
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+[37:55] And so th this way you can serve something where you get a lot of the benefits, reproducibility, uh, you know, fairly quick turnaround time uh on on a pork chop uh that you would uh and get more of a traditional flavor out of it. Uh where you know, but still get some of the benefits of low temperature. And so th this works a lot on bigger bigger cuts or uh things like that where you basically you just want to ensure that the inside is done. So we call that kind of low temperature for insurance purposes. And so you might want to look into something like that.
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+[38:22] Like just cook it through to the lowest temperature you want, cool it down, and then you know, take it from normal in a in a hot, hot oven and just get that outside where you want it. And I think you might be happy with the results because a lot of times we want a more traditional tasting uh especially on something like a pork chop. What do you think, Harold? Yep. Sounds good.
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+[38:42] I have nothing to add. And and definitely like with the at the 64 degrees is actually it's it's great. It's really, really good. But we just, you know, we want to see if there's if we're missing anything and if we can try and take it to a higher level, which this sounds like a something we're definitely going to try. Yeah, I'd be I'd be careful with the l the lower temps like 52, 54, here's why.
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+[39:00] I mean, will you kill bacteria down there? Yeah, probably. But uh one of the issues is when you load up a circulator uh and you g hit those fairly low temperatures, if the circulators crowded at all, um sometimes um the the the pieces of meat that are near each other they'll be shielded from the temperature for long enough at those low temperatures that you'll get uh lactic acid bacteria growing in. So if you look in the s people who post on Sou vide you'll notice people saying, oh my thing smelled like sauerkraut, my thing smelled like blue cheese. But and it's because they're not killing the lactic acid bacteria fast enough.
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+[39:33] So when you're doing those low, low temperatures, I would recommend a quick dunk of the uh bag into um into um maybe into simmering water just to kill all the lactic acid bacteria that are on the outside and um and then uh and then and then go go from there is another thing if you're having that problem. I know that's some people are having that that that problem and just just real quick I know you guys are have a lot to cover, but do you have any sort of guideline basic temperatures that you work with uh in your laboratory just for for you know for poultry let's say game meat you know stuff that you know things like that. What's your braising temperature? What's your um I do a lot of braises at sixty um because the lower ones I think are you know people don't really people don't really uh they want their braises much lower than that and uh when I go higher than about sixty three I start feeling like I'm losing the advantage sixty three sixty four I start losing the advantages of low temperature so I tend to stay in that range. Uh but the the best we have cooking charts.
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+[40:32] If you go to cooking issues dot com and look up uh low low temp uh charts there's a chart that has basically all of our temperatures on it. Uh temperatures and times that we work with yeah and that's that's pretty that's pretty up to date. Um I I would I would check that out. And then let me let me just knock something out real quick Harold before because I want to talk to you something about 'cause Harold and I are back we're gonna go to Tales of the Cocktail. Oh wait we have another caller so I can't talk about Tails of the cocktail.
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+[40:57] All right we have another caller coming in Harold Okay. Hello? Okay. How you doing? How are you man?
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+[41:05] All right. I'm here to ask you a question. All righty. So I know you guys are talking sous V but I don't have a sous vide at home. Right.
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+[41:12] Uh but I do have an oven. Okay. So my entry my entree into kind of the technical side of cooking has been to kind of fudge it at home. Right. I'm trying to uh I brine my meat usually before I I roast it.
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+[41:26] So are you familiar with this River Cottage meat book? Yes. I have in the River Cottage Meat Book he'll talk about how he describes a two part roasting process. One at like four twenty five and then it comes down fifty seventy five degrees for like the longer roast to cook through. Right.
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+[41:44] You know to make the crust and then to cook the the meat through. Right. So but I I found at home after brining that it didn't work. What I've been doing is roasting a chicken the whole time at the same temperature. So I wanted to know what what you guys thought about that, about that two temperature versus one temperature and about that process 'cause I've been, you know, getting a good brown on the meat and cooking it all the way through with a lot, you know, the more uh technique I applied to it, the worse the results got.
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+[42:20] Harold, I'm gonna let you take this one because you focus a lot on these kinds of techniques specifically with ovens. So I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you take this guy. Okay. Well um my feeling is that you can you can get a good result uh in a lot of different ways and um it just depends on on the details of what you do and and what you're looking for in the end. So the the high temp followed by low temp is uh you know pretty standard um way of doing things uh it gives you that initial blast of high temperature starts the browning on the surface and um then you turn the heat down to cook it through more gently uh if you left it at the high temperature too long then you'd end up overcooking the outside while the inside was still cooking through but with something like a chicken which is relatively small and which cooks relatively quickly um I uh I find that you can get good results uh with all sorts of techniques.
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+[43:18] You can stick it uh chicken in at five hundred degrees and uh it's done really quickly and it comes out pretty juicy because even though the outside temperature is so high uh the rapidity of the cooking means that you you end up with a you know reasonably uh juicy inside you can also cook um at a at a low temperature um when you say that you're cooking at the same temperature constantly is it is it like uh what 400 degrees, three seventy five four it's like three fifty three seventy five right in there. Yeah, yeah. And you're ample put it in for like forty five minutes how long with the browning that you get on the on the skin? It works because I think the brine, the brine and then the drying after the brine allows it to brown easier. Yeah, yeah.
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+[44:06] So you do take it out of the brine and you what do you do? Let it sit in the fridge for a day to to dry it. Exactly. I take I brine it overnight and then in the morning, you know, with my cereal, I'll take it out and dry it. Dry it, and when I come home, then make it for dinner.
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+[44:21] Yeah. So that's the the those are the little details that can make all the difference in the world. If you if you brine without the drying, then you're gonna end up with a soggy chicken at four hundred degrees or three seventy-five, and you really need that high temperature to bake out the the moisture and get the browning going. But if you've already pre-dried it, then that's not an issue. And then it forms that kind of pellicle, you know, and it gets brown there.
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+[44:45] The skin gets kind of clear and tacky. Mm-hmm. Um my other question to you is if you're cooking that at five hundred, really high, really fast, do you have to rest it then? Like is there a tin foil? Is there do you have to I mean 'cause how does it cook through that fast?
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+[45:05] Uh resting it does uh is a good idea, uh, and that's uh because the the outside parts of the of the bird have gotten pretty hot and it's a chance for the for the juices to um to kind of redistribute, you know. They're they've been squeezed out but they haven't exited the m the muscle completely, and so they can kind of settle in and find the find the dry spots and uh and and redistribute and give you something more evenly juicy. Okay. Well, thanks for you answered me. I was just feeling guilty because of the two different temperatures versus the one.
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+[45:40] I felt that somehow I was being unfaithful. And now I realize that the drying made all the difference. Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh you you only owe your faith to a delicious result. Exactly.
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+[45:53] So in the pudding. All right. Thanks for calling in. And we have very short amount of time. I gotta knock two things out with you, Harold.
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+[46:01] We got a follow-up, and this is right up your alley. Uh, Chris, who called in b uh before about the cilantro, just sent us a a text saying, uh, I realized I forgot to mention that I've had some luck preventing rot by washing with aqueous ozone. Uh it's really the stabilization of the flavor itself that I'm after, and he thinks that maybe it's decanal in it that he's in it, and they it's so quote, it's so damn fleeting, even in totally unrotten bunches. Anything to say about that, Herald. Uh well, um it just speaks to the uh the variability among uh among people and their sensitivity to these uh aroma compounds because they're there are people who who can't come within uh a mile of a bunch of cilantro without smelling the you know the tiniest quantities.
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+[46:46] So it it may just be that um uh he uh is uh he he loves the the aroma but is less sensitive to it, and so it's gonna be harder to find a bunch with with enough of the stuff to to really make an impact for him. All right, and then we we have one quick question that came in. I promised I'd get to all the early email ones. He uh Scott from your hometown, San Francisco, wants to know how to make a foam uh to put on top of his dirty martini with an olive brine based on a drink he had at the bazaar in uh Los Angeles, uh, and just wants to know some basic pointers. Can you do it with uh stuff from the supermarket?
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+[47:23] Yes, I would get yourself some uh I'll get yourself some some uh lethosin, the granulated kind, uh and and or Xanthan gum andor a combination. I would not add any more than about a quarter of a percent or so of uh Xanthan. You could actually add a little more but I wouldn't add much more uh and anything up to about half uh to three quarters of a percent of lecithin. Put a stick blender into the mixture, hold it at an angle so that the blade of the stick blender is going in and out of the uh liquid and that's going to cause the bubbling and frothing uh and you should be able to get uh a foam. If not just post a question to uh the forums or the cooking issues and uh and we'll answer it.
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+[48:02] Uh Harold and I are actually going to uh in a couple days actually going to both be in New Orleans. We're going to Tales of the Cocktail which is an event where Harold will be speaking with my good buddy uh Tony Canigliaro and good buddies and Audrey Saunders. And then um one more cocktail related thing uh if you want to come learn high-tech cocktail stuff including some home friendly things uh from uh me personally and Nils my my uh the head of the French culinary and my partner in crime here uh we're doing a class on June twenty eighth at the French culinary institute at six PM. Uh sadly we're out of time and I'm really upset because Harold I had a bunch of interesting stuff to talk to you about with uh new rotary evaporation breakthroughs that we made just yesterday but I guess that'll have to yeah well it turns out I think I might have a way to do really delicious distillations water based and then add it to alcohol quickly to try and keep the aroma in. I I found that like I can with liquid nitrogen I can uh I can basically uh even though water-based distillations are normally you know not so flavorful is so fleeting that if you if I'd use a cold finger with liquid nitrogen, do my distillation that way, and then immediately melt it into alcohol, that I get a very good result.
+
+[49:08] But I'm still working with it. So I was hoping to talk to you about that on the radio, but alas, we're out of time. So I hope, Harold, I hope you enjoyed calling in. I enjoyed having you. Hopefully you can come again.
+
+[49:19] Uh anyone who uh texted Nastasha a little bit later, I'm sorry we didn't get to your questions. We'll get to them next time. And you have been listening to uh Cooking Issues on Harris Radio Network brought to you by Acme Smoked Fish. Thank you. Oh, you didn't have to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit.
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+[0:21] You are listening to Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from noon to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, uh, the host of Cooking Issues. I'm here with Nastasha Lopez. Uh, we're from the French Culinary Institute. We're here to answer all of your cooking questions.
+
+[0:39] Call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. For those of you that don't know us, we specialize in technical kinds of cooking questions, pieces of equipment, new techniques, new ingredients, but we uh we're interested in basically any food-related question you have. Uh today's show is brought to you by the Fairway Markets. No matter where you live in New York City, you're probably pretty close to a fairway market.
+
+[1:02] Uh I believe that uh we're actually being sponsored by Steve Jenkins from Fairway, who is uh one of the great cheesemongers in uh all of uh the country probably that Fairway has and has had for many, many years. An amazing selection of cheeses, uh great selection of meats and other produce. Fairway like no other market. Uh all right, Nastasha. So uh you want to start off before we answer any questions with uh kind of what we've been doing over the past week or so.
+
+[1:26] Well you've been gone for a while. Right. Well, I just got back from New Orleans. Uh New Orleans every year has this event called Tales of the Cocktail, where uh a good chunk of the uh bar industry in the United States heads down to New Orleans in the middle of uh summer when it's piss hot and humid and gets horribly, horribly drunk over the course of a couple of days, all in the interest of uh theoretically learning more about uh you know how to prepare fine drinks, and a lot about the history of fine drinks. I was down there doing a uh seminar called uh The Science of Stirring, which was a follow-up to our smash hit last year, The Science of Shaking.
+
+[1:59] Uh basically I was there with Evan Clem, who is the uh the uh the head of beverage for Be Our Guest. You know, they do those Caminos restaurants here in the city. He serves something like 8,000 margaritas on Cinco de Mayo. Um and uh Thomas Waugh from uh Death and Co. Uh, which was you know just I guess this year just won like best bar in the universe at Tales of the Cocktail or something like that, best cocktail that's in the universe, something like that.
+
+[2:22] Like a bunch of best in the universe kinds of things. Anyway, uh this year we were investigating how stirring uh, you know, what is the basic science behind stirring a cocktail? Um the interesting things about it, I'll talk about it for a minute, is uh last year when we did shaking, the fundamental uh thing we learned about shaking was that it really your shaking style doesn't make that much of a difference in terms of the temperature and the dilution of the drink when you're done. Also, the ice doesn't make that much of a difference, assuming there's not a lot of water on the ice doesn't make that much of a difference within reason. And that's good news for people, especially at home, because it means that they can make a decent quality drink without without being basically the yoda of the shake.
+
+[2:58] Uh, you know, as long as they you know do a relatively decent job and they shake, you know, for about you know twelve to fifteen seconds, they're gonna you know get uh fundamentally this similar dilution all you know every time they do it. Uh stirring, unfortunately, uh is a lot more a lot more complicated because stirring is not as efficient as uh shaking in in chilling. So that the first rule of all of cocktails, by the way, uh especially in bars where the ice that they're using in the bar is almost always right at the melting point. It's not from the freezer. And by the way, even if you use ice it's in a freezer, you think you're winning a lot because it's a lot colder than ice that's you know been sitting out.
+
+[3:34] Uh you don't actually win that much because uh ice doesn't have that much extra energy in it stored uh in the form of temperature. Most of it is given when it melts. It's the melting of ice that really does most of the chilling and dilution. So the fundamental rule of cocktails is there is no dilution without chilling, and there is no chilling without dilution. They're related.
+
+[3:54] Uh and so because stirring is less effective than shaking, a chilling, uh, it you actually um can alter the drink greatly by how much you you stir it. So while a cocktail, uh when you shake it only takes about 12-15 seconds to reach equilibrium, a stirred cocktail can take uh up to a minute or or longer. Um with that, that's what I was doing for the past week. And if you want to call in with any more questions about stirring, we're gonna put a blog post up pretty soon on you know, with all kinds of nice purdy charts and graphs on stirring fast, stirring slow, stirring with big eyes, stirring with crappy eyes, yada yada yada. Um anyway, so you know that's what we've been up to.
+
+[4:32] Uh now I'm gonna take some of the questions that we had emailed to us over the past week. Uh Michael Natkin, the author of Herbivoracious.com, which is a vegetarian recipe blog, asks a very interesting question. He says, Why do some things taste better the next day? Uh for instance, tomato sauces, lentil soup, and stews. Uh and he says the conventional wisdom is that the flavors marry uh when it's left overnight, but that doesn't really seem very well defined.
+
+[4:55] So, first of all, is this true? He asks, and if it is true, then you know why? Can we pinpoint anything specific uh on a from a chemical standpoint uh of why that's the case? Well, this is an extremely interesting question. Uh the short answer is yes, some foods do taste better uh you know after they've been sitting for a while, uh, and but some taste noticeably worse.
+
+[5:15] Um in the vegetable world, for instance, uh potatoes can uh when they're stored take on an off flavor that's you know perceived as kind of cardboard y and the same with with meats can take on, although you don't care because you're a vegetarian recipe blog, but uh certain meats can take on a flavor called warmed over flavor when they've been chilled and reheated. And what's happening in those cases when things taste bad is that uh there's an oxidation, a fat oxidation going on. So uh you know, there's certain you know uh polyunsaturated fats in there that are being um oxidized to create kind of these off cardboardy rancid warmed over flavors in in certain potatoes and in certain meats when they're uh reheated and stored in the presence of oxygen. And a vacuum bag can kind of ameliorate those problems. Now, the problem of things actually tasting better and changing is a lot more complicated than that.
+
+[6:06] So certain people certain foods that people think taste better when they're reheated, like for instance, pizza, if you reheat it properly, is because let's say the person who made it uh didn't have their dough uh balance quite right and water migrated to the crust, right? So now your crust is floppy. If you reheat it properly, you can recrisp the crust, and it's actually crisper than it used to be because there's less water in the crust, and so you can get a crisper crust. So certain in certain pizzas you can actually get a better product when you reheat it versus when you when you had it the first time. Uh lasagna is another thing pointed to often people say, well, lasagna tastes better.
+
+[6:39] Uh lasagna as it's cooling, the pasta presumably can then reabsorb more water than it can than it could. It absorbs water out of the sauce. The sauce becomes more concentrated. That's one effect, so it's gonna taste uh, you know, good upon reheating. A secondary effect with uh strong flavored sauces, uh like like tomato, like uh stews, like soups, um, is that these sauces have lots of high notes uh in the volatiles that kind of uh can stick out.
+
+[7:05] Now uh these volatiles can flash off when it's cooling and flash, you know, flash off again when it's when it's rewarming, and this can uh basically create an evening out effect of the flavor. But even more so as it's being stored in the uh in the fridge, the actual uh the actual levels of the different volatiles can change as they're de degraded or uh you know broken up or hydrolyzed in the food as it's being stored. And what's interesting is is that the breakdown of these vol these volatile compounds, a lot of them are created when the when the food is cooked, right? Uh and they react a different way when they're uh on the heat than they do when they're uh in the fridge. So you I you get a different kind of breakdown of these compounds, and then when you reheat it, you you break you're breaking more down again, and basically um you can cause a leveling off of these volatiles.
+
+[7:49] So there's uh and I was uh I was hard pressed this morning, I was looking to try and find some sp specific papers on it so I could cite some for you, but I couldn't. But this is my feeling, uh my memory, I should say, of of what's going on in the situation. Uh you know, that and that's aside from any actual kind of effect they have where you know maybe the spice didn't penetrate to the center of a bean, let's say, and when you let it sit overnight, it does. So there's many, many multiple uh effects uh going on. It's actually quite a complicated uh process, but yes, uh certain foods can taste better and certain foods can taste worse.
+
+[8:24] Um hopefully that uh answers that question. Uh I have another one. Uh someone says, uh my mom wants uh anonymous by the way, my mom wants to know if she can put a frozen piece of meat into a crock pot. Uh yes, yes, you can. So here's what happens, and I believe we have another question on freezing that I'm gonna deal with later, but freezing is fundamentally a dehydration technique.
+
+[8:46] So what happens is when water freezes, it freezes into uh into ice, it's pure water. So you have water that's bound in cells. That water basically crystallizes out and freezes at as crystals, okay? So the the ice uh that forms is basically removed from uh either between the cells or in the cells of your meat. It's fundamentally, or whatever product you're freezing.
+
+[9:10] It's fundamentally a dehydration process. Now, super rapid thawing in certain cases can prevent uh certain foods like meats that might reabsorb that liquid from reabsorbing them. Also, improperly frozen things that have a lot of damaged cells in them will not reabsorb the liquid, and you'll you can tell a good quality frozen product from a bad quality frozen product because you'll see a lot more what's called drip loss. You'll see a lot of liquid flowing out of the out of the you know product as it's thawing, right? That's a the hallmark of an improperly frozen thing.
+
+[9:41] Now, certain things you just can't help it, like berries, they're gonna that's gonna happen unless you have some very good freezing technology like liquid nitrogen. Um because the faster you freeze it, the less damage uh there is uh to what within reason. I mean, if you freeze it too fast, it turns brittle and shatters, but uh that's you know, that's another story. So now, when you're cooking something in a crock pot, right, a crock pot is uh uh fairly it's fairly gentle in that it doesn't scorch foods, but it's also a fairly high heat. You're gonna basically cook the heck out of that meat, and you're gonna cook it so long that you're gonna cook all that water out anyway.
+
+[10:13] Uh and you're you're getting the juiciness out of the sauce that it's cooking in, and you're getting the juiciness out of the gelatin that's cooking in. So there's there's absolutely no reason why you can't uh sear your meat from frozen if you want to do that and then throw it in a crock pot and go from there. You're gonna cook it for a long time. It's not gonna throw off your cooking times that much unless the meat is very, very thick. Uh, and so I think uh I think that's that's fine practice and it's definitely gonna save you, save you some time.
+
+[10:37] Another uh anonymous question uh came in. Uh I want to know if it's true that putting your face in front of a microwave is going to damage you. Well this is an interesting question. I've had this question asked uh many times and as someone that has done many unauthorized things to microwave ovens, I'm somewhat qualified to answer this question. Um you'll notice that the inside of your microwave is uh is all metal okay and that there's a shield a grate over the front door of the microwave that's also made out of metal and it's perforated with little holes.
+
+[11:05] Now those little holes are specifically designed to not allow microwaves through. So the m even though you can see the light the light is a very uh much uh shorter wavelength than uh microwaves so light can make it through without a problem but um uh the microwaves um cannot at all in fact even if those holes were a good bit larger like the size of a pencil you still wouldn't get appreciable radiation uh through that now if you have a uh a microwave microwaves have that that metal that metal perforated sheet and then they also have usually a plastic or glass sheet in front of that perforated sheet and what that's doing is that stops you from putting your eyes directly against that metal grate. If you put your eyes directly against that metal grate you will have some microwave energy that can make it through those little holes for very very short distances. I'm talking very short distances. So I do not recommend removing the metal grate and then putting your eyeballs against the uh against the uh the that perforated you know perforated sheet now it is true that certain microwaves if the latch fails or they have problems with their gasketing in their door material uh such that you know basically the microwaves can leak leak out and there's not a good uh grounding between uh all the different parts, then yes, you can get uh some leakage of microwaves.
+
+[12:21] They make basically microwave detectors, which are just meters that sense whether there's microwave radiation. You can walk around your your microwave and and see whether or not it's leaking. Uh you know, if you're paranoid about these things, you know, they're not that expensive. You can get one. Uh and you know, I used one once when I did a lot of modifications to a microwave and want to make sure I wasn't gonna turn anyone's eyeballs into uh, you know, poached eggs.
+
+[12:43] Because uh, you know, once the once the protein in your eyes goes white from being denatured, it's uh it's you know, end of story. And this actually used to happen. You know, microwaves are very similar to radar uh technology. In fact, the old story, my grandfather uh, you know, uh before he retired was a uh a radar technician, uh not technician, engineer, built radars, including including radars for Air Force jets uh back in the day. And the old story was that an engineer at Raytheon figured out it's probably apocryphal, but figured out the microwave oven because he was working on a radar uh unit and the uh and the candy bar in his uh pocket melted.
+
+[13:14] And he was uh you know, I was like, ah, that's interesting. Candy bar in my pocket melted, and then kind of it all all uh you know went from there. But I believe that there's also been cases, and I don't know whether it's just to scare the crap out of me, uh, that you know, people have stared down uh they know an old school radar, continuous way radar thing, and you know, been blinded and all this other stuff. So anyway, I hope that answers, I hope that answers your question. Uh okay.
+
+[13:36] Let's uh take one. We have two more minutes. Oh, we have two more minutes? All right, well, maybe I maybe I shouldn't take uh a complicated uh complicated question then before I uh before I go to break. Um I will say that I hope you call in.
+
+[13:51] Uh our number is 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128, or you can email Nastasha at Lopez dot N-A-S-T-A-S-S-I-A at gmail.com. Right. And we're gonna try to handle all of your cooking related questions. Uh when we get back, we'll answer some more questions and I will talk about the weird variety meats that we've been cooking.
+
+[14:14] Feeling good. You feel good? Thanks so much, Bone Brother. How you feel, mate? I'm feeling all right.
+
+[14:26] I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey Jure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[14:40] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Take them up, friend. We gotta take high.
+
+[15:05] We gotta take high Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have everybody. Let's bread blow by two cores. And then I wanna wave me and let's go and do that with now.
+
+[15:23] Alright. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. This is Dave Arnold, and you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in with your cooking related questions, or you know, at this point, any questions. 718 497 2128.
+
+[15:41] That's 718 497 2128. Um okay, so we have a question in from uh Greg Kreckleberg, uh, and he asks actually some very complicated uh technical questions. He he wants to know uh the first question actually is a little easier to deal with. He says, What can a uh home cook do to freeze foods or sauces that will break when you freeze them? And he wants to know should I add gelatin, agar, starches, fats, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[16:08] And he liquid nitrogen is one of them. I like uh I like Greg that uh you're saying a home-friendly technique for doing this is to use liquid nitrogen. I really appreciate that, and it just shows how far we've come in uh in the past uh couple of years. Now liquid nitrogen probably actually uh it doesn't help freeze thaw stabilize some things, but I know that it does prevent um other things from getting um damaged by by freezing. I haven't done a lot of testing with liquid nitrogen free stawing.
+
+[16:35] Liquid nitrogen, liquid nitrogen will um preserve the quality, you're gonna get a lot less drip loss out of foods that are frozen with liquid nitrogen. If you're gonna freeze something with liquid nitrogen and you think it's gonna become too brittle, uh one way to do it best, and I I learned this from um you know uh someone who basically works in a cow semen uh calceman operation, uh you want to suspend the food above the liquid nitrogen, just above the liquid nitrogen for a number of minutes to pre-freeze it uh before it becomes hyper brittle, and then you can immerse it in the liquid nitrogen, and you're gonna get a uh a very uh you know nicely frozen product. But I assume that this is not what you mean. Uh uh things like so the question he's saying, should he add things to his uh his sauces uh like gelatin, agar, starches, and fats to to make them more free sauce stable. Um gelatin is not free sauce stable, uh, and neither is agar.
+
+[17:27] In fact, we use both of those things, uh we use the fact that they're not free sauce stable when we're clarifying uh juices. We basically freeze them and then when they thaw, they weep uh they weep fluid uh quite readily. And we use that fact to uh to clarify things. So those don't work. In general, what you want to add to to uh increase freeze thaw stability are uh thickeners.
+
+[17:50] Uh thickeners like uh locust bean gum, thickeners like xanthan gum. So uh something that basically holds together but uh is you know has a tendency to weep a little bit or or or break a little bit. You know, a little bit like under a percent of locust bean, um locust bean has to be heated, of course. Uh guar, but guar tastes kind of bad uh unless you have the really nice guar made by TIC gums, the flavor free guar. Um little bit of xanthan also acts as a stabilizer, it's gonna stop things from from weeping out.
+
+[18:21] There are starches that will will help. I don't um I don't happen to know what they are. I didn't have chance to research them before I before I came over. Um but uh in general you you move towards some sort of uh thickener to help stabilize uh situation, especially a gel. If you want to make a gel more free sauce stable, you're gonna use some sort of thickener.
+
+[18:41] Um like I say, like like leg locust bean, like um legwar like xanthan. Um, um let me think. I'm trying to see the other questions. I'm not exactly sure. He's saying um uh sauces like whole whole vegetables roasted, but I'm not exactly sure what the freeze saw problem with that is.
+
+[18:59] If it's weeping because of of texture uh being broken down, then the best way to make sure that you freeze and thaw those nicely is to use very, very rapid freezing. Uh and the best way to do that is of course liquid nitrogen. Barring that, you can make an ice slush with about 25% uh salt by weight with ice, make a slush with that, put your foods in a bag, and then immerse them in a slush, it's gonna freeze them very quickly with very small ice crystals, and it's going to uh preserve the flavor uh in those in those kinds of things. Now, uh he says on the flip side, what's a good way to thaw these ingredients? Thawing is actually a really interesting problem.
+
+[19:32] When you uh it's easier, believe this, it's easier to freeze something uh in quickly than it is to thaw, and here's why. Uh ice is actually a much better heat conductor than water. Much better. Uh the only reason you think water is a much better conductor of heat, right, is that uh um you can move around. Inside your food, the water can't move around, so it's not as good a conductor uh as um as uh as ice is.
+
+[20:01] So once something starts freezing in the freezer, the outside becomes ice, it now becomes a very good conductor. Now it's easier for the inside to freeze. When you're thawing, the outside uh thaws first, now it's water, now it's harder to conduct the heat in. It also takes more energy to heat ice than it does to heat water, and so it actually takes longer to uh to thaw something than it does to freeze it. If you want a speed thawing, obviously the best way to do it is to, if you want it to be fast, is to put it in a bag and then put it in uh running water.
+
+[20:33] Inside a bag in running water, ideal. It's gonna thaw it out, it's not gonna um it's gonna be fairly gentle, assuming you're gonna use it right away, uh, and it's going to be fairly quick. I mean, that's the fastest way um, you know, that we know of. I haven't experimented a lot. People used to sell thawing trays that were basically big blocks of aluminum, and that aluminum would just, you know, draw the heat away from the uh food.
+
+[20:55] But I don't know whether they're any better or worse than just putting something, probably worse, than just putting something in uh running water in uh inside of a bag because that way you're wicked wicking heat away from all sides, not just from the side with the with the metal block. Another question he has is uh he really loves habaneros, uh as do we, uh habanero peppers were until very recently the hottest peppers kind of uh known they've since been superseded by a couple other peppers called the ghost peppers but those peppers to my I've never I've never had a fresh ghost pepper but to me nothing beats the flavor uh and the amazing floral aroma of habanero peppers uh and Greg uh apparently agrees with this he says I do not like the heat they bring because most people are overwhelmed but uh but he loves the floral delicious floral aspects of the pepper. Now he says he's developed basically a surgical method for lowering the heat presumably by removing the uh the interior uh portion of the veins and seeds and the you know the very in interior portion of the um of the uh skin uh on the inside uh but he says it's moderately labor intensive and no one would do it in bulk and I agree that sounds like a huge pain in the butt and I know from a lot of experience with him in the kitchen that when you deal with them a lot everything gets contaminated and people get pissed and they start hacking and wheezing all over the kitchen because it's just just horrible. Could there be some low or mid temperature way to dissolve and move the capsacan out capsation is what makes things hot uh out of the picture while preserving uh the enchanting floral nature of the pepper. No vodka, no rotovap.
+
+[22:23] Okay, maybe vodka but still no rotovap. Well Greg you're killing me here because the rotovap is the primo way to to do this. I I don't know you might be able to do regular distillation without a rotovap. I mean you you could try um just uh macerating or or grinding the the uh peppers in vodka and then doing a simple stove top distillation with uh you know just with a a bowl of ice uh w you know uh y you look up anything on the any on the internet, any site on simple stovetop distillation, you just need a pot, some ice, and a bowl. Now, the the downside is is that this is gonna happen upwards of you know eighty degrees or so Celsius, whereas I can do it down at like forty Celsius.
+
+[23:09] Now, I I I don't know for a fact how much those amazing floral aromas are gonna be affected by that higher heat. But but uh I you know I would love it if you would try it and then and then tell us. Um I don't uh it just soaking in vodka, rem like that the vodka sucks that heat up. Now, it uh m perhaps the perhaps the alcohol preferentially soaks up the capsace, in which case you might be able to use the peppers slightly deheated after you do it, but I don't think you're going to preferentially take the capsacation as opposed to those floral aroma uh aromas. I think you're gonna lose a little bit of both.
+
+[23:43] Um he suggests maybe using peelzyme, which is an enzyme that we use to break down uh the tissue. Unfortunately, peelzyme uh breaks down the actual flesh tissue of peppers and turns them to mush. And so I don't think that uh that that's gonna help. Um I don't uh and he says possibly that in um in conjunction with uh an oleophilic, something that's going to bond to fats. That's a possibility.
+
+[24:08] Uh, but I just I haven't tested it, so I can't say whether it's whether it's gonna work or not, but it is something that I will look into more. And if you have any ideas, uh Greg, I encourage you to please uh write or or call us and and um give us some good ideas, right, Nastasha? That's something we're interested in. Um okay. Sorry, I couldn't be more help on that.
+
+[24:28] Here's another one I can't be more help on. Uh someone says, Do we have any comments on the aeropress type coffee filtration? Uh the aeropress uh type coffee maker, uh, and the question is like, how does it how what does it taste like? Uh the you know, how does it flare, you know, the flavor? What's the acid balancing, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[24:44] Uh unfortunately, uh Paul wrote in that. Unfortunately, Paul, uh, I have not used uh the AeroPress. Um I have good friends who've had a done a lot of work with them. I have some calls into Jeffrey Steingarden, but I he's even harder to get in touch with than I am. He's like the only person in the world harder to get in touch with.
+
+[25:00] He answers his phone less than I do. And uh I couldn't uh he's a big advocate, so I wanted to ask what what he thought. For those of you that don't know the Aero Press, it was designed I think by the same what's the name of that frisbee Nastasha with the hole in the middle that that flies for like a million yards, the Arabie, is that it? I don't know. Araby?
+
+[25:17] You know what I'm talking about? Anyway, I think it was designed by the same um same fellow that did the Arabie, I believe. And uh it's basically a cylinder with a filter in it and a piston. You put the coffee in the hot water, you push the piston down, it provides some amount of pressure and then forces it out. And the the main thing is it's supposed to make delicious coffee and it's supposed to it's cheap, and you can carry it wherever wherever you want to go.
+
+[25:42] Um the reason I haven't experimented with it is that uh although it is a pressurized coffee system, it doesn't generate 135 or so PSI, like you know, eight nine uh bar, uh, which is what you need to make espresso. And it's just not because I'm uh snob at all, but I uh basically I only drink espresso and I drink like a billion cup I drink a billion cups of it a day. And for years I've had uh just because I'm like this, I went on eBay and actually to a restaurant auction. I went to a restaurant auction once and I bought a uh the first espresso machine I owned was a two-group ranchillio restaurant machine from a restaurant auction where the restaurant has been shut down by the uh drug enforcement agency because they were also dealing drugs out of the restaurant. When the drug enforcement agency shuts down your restaurant, what they do is they walk up and they put a padlock on the door and the f and then they unplug all the lights, right?
+
+[26:29] Uh well, actually they just flip the circuit breaker and then all the food just sits there and rots in your fridge until they get around to figuring out what the hell they're gonna do. Well, this place was in uh somewhere, you know, in the in the 150s, uh 160s somewhere near Broadway, and uh they just let it rot for like a year or you know, eight months a year, and then they had a restaurant auction. And so uh, you know, I showed up at the restaurant auction, and when they opened the door, the aroma was so over the st aroma. The miasmal stench was so overwhelming that uh, you know, literally like like seasoned veterans of restaurants were running out of there. And to me, I was like, hey, this is great news.
+
+[27:07] This is awesome because what it means is is that no one is gonna bid on this crap. I mean, no one is gonna bid on this crap because no one can even stand in the room with this, you know, like like all the Cuban sandwich rolls were still there all desiccated and half eaten. Like you you would have like a a bun and then a mouse that was eating the bun that had died, and then the mouse had in turn been eaten by whatever else was in there. It was horrible, horrible. But tell them how you got it home.
+
+[27:31] Well, I uh another guy was being there, another guy who who he like, you know, he actually like literally was a crack dealer at one point and decided he was gonna, you know, go legit and had uh started a uh was starting a downtown restaurant, you know, like a food cart, and he was buying stuff and you know I I paid him twenty dollars to drive me home, and then uh I left the espresso pump in his car and I had to go out and find him, and he was like, Who the hell's calling me? Anyway, whatever. I got this machine for almost for nothing, but I I had to disassemble it and boil it uh every single port of it and reconstruct it. I learned a lot about espresso machines. But though the that's a long way of saying that I've had a commercial espresso machine for a long time, and so I haven't necessarily investigated other techniques for making coffee, and I apologize that I have a very uh small amount of knowledge on the Aeropress coffee system.
+
+[28:17] But from what I hear, it's uh it's it's pretty good. That's what I hear. And so if I I'm sure that uh and you you now made me feel bad that I haven't experimented with it, and I don't know what it costs. It costs some like minimal amount of money, I think. So now maybe I'll just go buy one and play with it, or at least maybe get uh Steingarden to call me back and have him tell me why it's why it's so great.
+
+[28:37] Uh next next segment, I promise I will talk about the weird meats that we ate. You're listening to Cooking Issues on uh Heritage Radio Network. Call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128, and this is Cooking Issues, and I am David Arnold. When I have a homeless money, I promise I would think to stay real straight and sober.
+
+[29:38] I swore I wouldn't drink bed whisking. Made me a lose my habit. Give the boss slip. Before the man was over. I started in the sick.
+
+[30:17] You are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, and we are here to answer your cooking issues, whether they come in via email or via telephone. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So we ran an interesting experiment last week where we ordered a whole bunch of odd meats from a butcher in Chicago.
+
+[30:44] I'm gonna I'm gonna ruin the name. What is it, Nastasha? It's like Zy Zymer Zy Zymer's C Z I M E R. Okay. And so these guys for generations, I think since you know the uh the teens, since like 1919, 1990s, so 1914, something like that.
+
+[31:02] These guys have been uh dealing in uh kind of odd, odd meats. Now, one of the strange things, not strange things, uh, America used to be known as kind of the game uh the game food capital of the world. We just had so much of it uh, you know, uh early on, uh, and all of it was legal to sell. So if you go back and you look in um on the web at something called the the markets assistant, and it was in basically a guide to the New York markets that was written um both before and after and around the Civil War. Uh, you know, you'll see, and you it's available on Google Books, and the guy at the front looks like Bill the Butcher Pool from uh from uh gangs in New York.
+
+[31:37] It's kinda cool. But the list of foods that was available to purchase in the markets, even in New York City, was shattering, amazing. I mean, just the the the different types of meats, and the reason was is that anything that you killed, uh shot, you know, caught, whatever, was fair game. There were no rules, there were no regulations. Uh a combination of things has caused that to not be the case anymore.
+
+[31:57] One is sanitary regulations, so you things have to be slaughtered in uh basically in approved slaughterhouses now, so that cuts down the amount of things that you can do. And you're also not allowed to sell foods that you hunt, game that you hunt, and that's uh due to you know the fact that we were just killing too damn much, and to keep the animals uh, you know, to keep a good stock of animals, there was the conservation uh laws put on them. Also, specifically things like birds that you used to be able to shoot any damn thing. It's like the the the birds that you're allowed to kill now are are very, very highly regulated, and and um like one of the ones I really want to actually eat is this thing called the the bobble ink. This is off topic, I don't care.
+
+[32:32] The bobble ink is this is this tiny bird. Okay, listen. Many of the viewers out there are viewers, many of the listeners are listeners out there are familiar with the ordelon. The ordelon is the famous French bird that you eat bones and all. They roast it whole, and you're supposed to put a napkin over it.
+
+[32:46] Some people say to preserve the aroma, some people say to hide from God. And these Ortalon are basically little birds and they go on a long migration. And uh somewhere in, you know, in near the beginning, in the middle of the migration, they stop by in the Mediterranean area in France and they gorge because they need to get a lot of energy and they get very fat so that they can fly all the way south, right? It's a passerine type of bird, it's bird migration. So what these what they've done for centuries is grow is catch these birds and then fatten them specifically so that they're little plump, fat, little juicy morsels, they then, okay.
+
+[33:18] This sounds awful, uh this part's awful. Then they, they uh they usually suffocate them in liquor and then roast them whole. So this is the famous Ordelon that's now now illegal. Now, by the way, fattening things like this has a long, long, long history. It goes back, you know, to the Romans and probably before the Romans, where they used to fatten animals like fig peckers and dormists and things like that, fatten them specifically for the kitchen, catch them and fatten them.
+
+[33:39] Okay. Now, the Ortolon is not the only bird like this. There are two other well known to the cultures that do them, uh migration birds like that that get super fat and get caught and get eaten. One's in China, and I I forget the name of it, it's like the yellow breasted patty swallow or something like that in English. I forget the name of it.
+
+[33:55] But the other one is the bobble link, which used to be known as the rice bird. And when we used to grow a lot of rice in South Carolina, uh all the way up until the early part of uh last century, uh, the migration of these birds would go down. They'd see all the rice and these flocks, these like you could like basically this huge, huge migrating flocks would go down and they would eat a crap load of rice, get amazingly fat, and uh all but it's because they were hurting the rice crop, and because apparently they were incredibly delicious, you'd basically just fire these like small shot shotguns into the air, and the birds would just, you know, fall like rain around you, and you'd pick them up, and they were supposedly the best thing in the world. They were called rice birds. Anyway, you used to be able to get those, and I called every single country, their their the commissions involved in every single country in the migration from here all the way down to South America to see whether any of them allowed me to eat that bird, and they didn't.
+
+[34:47] Uh anyways, it's just a rant on the on the bobbleink. Um, okay, back to the weird meats that sorry, back to the weird meats that we were uh we were eating. So this place gets all these weird meats that are typically now unavailable, but maybe would have been available before all of these uh these these laws, uh, which by the way, the laws are good. I'm not saying the laws are bad. Um now, uh the meats we got were we got uh lion meat, and the lion is obtained.
+
+[35:11] I think I said last week the lion is obtained because um lions that aren't wanted anymore by morons who have them as pets or uh breeding programs, um they're not wanted anymore, they give them up, and typically they can't be placed again. They're slaughtered uh for their fur, and then the meat becomes a byproduct. Uh we had beaver. I don't really know like why I don't know what happened with the beaver, I don't know what the deal is with that. Um but the um we had black bear, probably a similar situation to the lion.
+
+[35:39] We had yak, which I believe was actually farmed for this purpose. Um what else we had? Whole raccoon. We had a whole raccoon. Uh we had one other, didn't we?
+
+[35:48] Or is that it? Um I think that's it. That's it. Okay. So I'm here to tell you what this stuff tasted like.
+
+[35:54] Lion was quite interesting. Lion tastes like pork, right? Pork chop. Tastes like pork chop. A little bit more savory.
+
+[36:00] It's interesting. It's got kind of a it's a pork-based flavor with kind of a unique savory thing, probably due to the fact that it's uh carnivore. It eats only meat. We very rarely eat uh carnivores. So it was uh I I like the lion a lot.
+
+[36:13] It was an older animal. Uh we cooked it at uh 50 s no. Yeah, I what I cook it at? 60. I cooked it at 60 degrees uh Celsius for only it felt really tender, so I only cooked it for an hour or two, and it was quite tough.
+
+[36:28] I think we needed to cook it a lot longer to kind of because it didn't have a lot of like visible connective tissue, but since it was so old, it was kind of tough. So next time I cook lion, I think I'm gonna cook it for a good maybe ten hours at sixty Celsius or thereabouts. It was it was good. It was very good. Uh we did uh I might have done fifty seven.
+
+[36:47] I wish I could have remembered. I gotta go look at my numbers. Uh bear was extremely dark, black almost, and also felt very, very tender before it was cooked. It felt very soft. We cooked it at um fifty seven, I believe, uh, because it looked like a steak, so I wanted to cook it like a steak level, also for about an hour, and it was also tough, but it had a really kind of right aftertaste, like really kind of to me, bloody mineral aftertaste that I didn't really enjoy it.
+
+[37:12] You didn't like the bear, are you? I didn't try it. I was scared of the chicken. I told you that the trichinosis is gonna be killed by that kitty procedure. We looked it up, we know the like the the thermal death curse for trichinosis.
+
+[37:23] I told you we killed all the trichonosis in that thing. I was still sick. I had food poisoning that week. Oh, geez. She okay, so she reads trichinosis about it, and she thinks she has trichonosis.
+
+[37:33] I'm like, you don't, your body's not full of worms. I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax. Whatever. I'm not gonna get into it. I didn't enjoy the bear that much.
+
+[37:40] Um people say it tastes greasy. It didn't taste greasy, it just had kind of a weird metallic uh aftertaste for me. Uh the raccoon was a big disappointment. I cooked that raccoon. Probably I need to cook it a lot longer and at a higher temperature.
+
+[37:53] I cooked it only for four or five hours at 60. Uh lion, by the way, I remember now, I cooked it at 57. The uh the raccoon I I cooked at uh 60 for like uh four and a half hours because I thought it was you know, but it just because it's small doesn't mean it was uh it it's young though, so it was tough. It doesn't have that much meat on it. In the future I would cook it to a much higher temperature for a much longer time, like probably 63, 62, 63 degrees for like 24 hours and then shred it like for a stew.
+
+[38:22] Uh but it had a lot of fat on it, really freaked people out anyway. Uh, you know, it's not wasn't nearly as delicious as the guinea pigs that I've cooked from South America, which you know I think are delicious. So but I'm willing to give raccoon another chance, but the raccoon I had very high hopes for, and I I was disappointed. Now, on the positive side, that beaver was delicious. So there's beaver tail, which isn't actually the flapper, and then there's the flapper.
+
+[38:46] Uh the beaver tail we cooked for 24 hours at 60 Celsius, and it was just delicious. It had a really interesting woody aroma that you know I'm uh I've never really had before in a in a piece of meat. We soaked it in a in a little bit of uh uh vinegar water before we uh cooked it because every recipe basically tells you to do that. So we did that uh and then we we salted it a little bit, let it sit, and then uh put it in a bag, cooked it at s uh in butter at uh 60 for 24 hours, and then shredded it to tail meat, and just just fantastic. I love that beaver.
+
+[39:18] That beaver was delicious, right? Hey, come on now, Stasi. Get your mind out of the gutter. It was like a woody pulled pork. Yeah, it was very good.
+
+[39:26] Uh very, very good. The flapper, which is the actual tail part though, is mainly fat and skin, and we cooked that at a very uh we we skinned one first and then we we cooked another one whole after we had scrubbed it. Uh we cooked those at a high temperature, like 80 Celsius or so, for a couple of hours, and um they rendered out and but they were just kind of I fried them afterwards and they got kind of puffy and crispy on the outside, but there was just kind of too much fat on the inside, and we ate them last. Really, what needs to happen, we've got to run some more experiments, is to cook them, then uh take the fat out, use it for another preparation, and then use the skin, dehydrate it, and puff it like a chicharron. So I you know, in the future you'll be having from us from cooking issues team probably beaver flapper chicharron because I think it's gonna be good.
+
+[40:11] It will. Yeah, yeah. Stasi's having a tough time keeping it together here in the uh in the in the room. Uh and the the last one, also really, really delicious, was the yak. Now, the yak we did cook for uh overnight, uh the same time as the same amount as we actually no sh shoot, I keep on getting my stuff wrong.
+
+[40:29] I didn't I cook the yak at 57 for a whole day for 24 hours or for overnight rather, and the beaver I actually cook for two days, 48 hours if 60. I cooked it just like I cook a short rib. Okay. Excuse me, people. Sorry about that.
+
+[40:43] So uh but the yak we cooked uh overnight because my f my theory was that it was kind of you know, maybe not quite as tough as a short rib was gonna be. And uh so a short rib if you cook it for uh a full day at 60 for 24 hours at 60 degrees Celsius, comes out with the texture of like a skirt steak, and so that's what I was shooting for. So we did that with a yak, and the yak was just really savory and delicious. The odd thing was is that a lot of us detected a little bit of a duck kind of a note tuna. Duck into but it was just I thought I thought it was really good.
+
+[41:13] Uh yeah, and and the the really interesting thing about these is that these animals are all old animals. Uh and so you know, a bunch of friends of mine like uh Steingarten who won't call me back and uh Harold McGee have gone over to Europe where they have a culture of eating older, older animals uh for the flavor, and and you notice the flavor is really, really good. So I really I want to do a lot more uh experimenting with cooking uh older animals. We just gotta figure out uh figure out uh a way to get them. So if you want, I believe there is probably time for uh one more caller if you if you are near a phone.
+
+[41:50] Call in at 71. Oh, we have one. Oh, we have a caller in? Alright, so there's probably no more time for other callers. Hello?
+
+[41:57] Hello. Hi. Hi. Name's Jason. Hey Jason.
+
+[42:01] How are you doing? All right. Great. Um I recently became obsessed with faro. Ah.
+
+[42:08] I just don't know how to cook it right. So what's happening to it? Well, so my my obsession began at an uh a restaurant that served the faro salad and it was just nice and uh it's perfectly cooked like rice. And uh I've been cooking it at a uh ratio of three parts water to one part faro for about fifty minutes and it just doesn't puff up as nicely. So I'm wondering whether I should toast it initially or if if I should soak it or or what?
+
+[42:39] Well the soaking the soaking will probably help. Um I'm trying to remember I I had done a lot of cooking uh done some cooking with it rather a number of years ago. I haven't cooked it recently. What kind of equipment do you have? Do you have a rice cooker?
+
+[42:51] No, just a pen. Oh, yeah. A rice cooker might help. And also a lot of times when I want to cook tough grains that have a real tough coat on them, like faro does, uh, aside from any initial soaking that I do, uh sometimes I'll reach for the pressure cooker because the pressure cooker does a really good job of um of pushing the the liquid into those kind of uh sea coats, but those th the faro can take a long time. You have you cooked that with Cesare, Nastasha?
+
+[43:16] I can't remember how to do it. What's it I don't know. Cooks it for longer than fifty minutes? I don't know. I don't want to say something.
+
+[43:23] I don't want to say something that's not true, but yeah, I've seen him cook it. Oh Jesus say it and I'll try it and I'll call back and let you know if it's true or not. All right, yeah, right. We'll do some research. Yeah.
+
+[43:34] I'll call Chesare. Well, text Chesare now, see if we can get it while you're going. But um if you don't uh a rice cooker, they're good because they're not gonna scorch it while you're going, so you don't have to watch it as carefully and they're gonna get the water and eventually um and you know, on a brown on a brown rice setting. Uh or or I, you know, I I would definitely reach for the pressure cooker, and the pressure cooker's a lot easier because a pressure cooker, you just cook it for like you know, ha half hour in a pressure cooker and you know it's gonna be done. And that's how I cook similar grains, like uh like I'll do um I cook rye berries that way in a pressure cooker.
+
+[44:06] So we do it, and I assume it's gonna cook fairly similar to a rye berry. So to get a rye berry nice and fluffy, you know, you cook it in the pressure cooker from anywhere from 30 to 40 minutes in excess liquid. You also might want to use excess liquid. Are you you know, uh was it absorbing all the liquid? Um it started to, yeah.
+
+[44:23] Yeah, yeah, toward the end. Yeah, so things like that that are tough. You might want to use excess liquid. I don't know that you're gonna dilute the flavor that much, and then the the liquid that you have left over, you could reduce down and use for something else. So that you know that a lot of times those things, you know, once once you start getting in a situation where it's liquid pour in the pan, then you start running into problems where you're actually gonna start maybe uh losing water again out of the outside.
+
+[44:46] The outside's gonna harden up. I would keep it, I would keep them in liquid while they're while they're cooking. Uh because that's definitely how I do it in a in a pressure cooker situation. I don't know if that's gonna help. Have you tried that yet?
+
+[44:58] Uh don't own a pressure cooker. No, no, I meant uh keeping uh keeping uh excess liquid. Well, if if water starts to run out, I'll I'll just add some some more water. And still it's not getting fluffy, huh? Yeah, it's not.
+
+[45:10] Alright, listen. So Cesare Casella is the Dean of Italian studies at the uh at the school, and the man cooks far all day every day. And so uh what it's what's gonna happen is I'm gonna I'm gonna ask uh I promise Stasi, make sure I don't forget to do this. I just texted you. Okay.
+
+[45:26] We texted Cesare Casella and I'm gonna ask uh Louis Di Paolo from DePalo from DePa because I buy most of my faro from DiPalos here in New York City. Yeah, I love I love DiPalos. Uh and so I think it says here he cooks it risotto style. Oh. Okay.
+
+[45:41] So if he cooks it risotto style, then he probably does do an initial fry of the grains. Um although I don't know what that's going to do from a from a texture standpoint, and then just keeps adding liquid the entire time while he's stirring until it absorbs enough. Um have you tried that one? Have you d tried it basically just like it's a risotto, but it's gonna take a lot of it. That seems like it would take a lot longer.
+
+[46:00] Uh oh, a whole lot longer. Yeah. I mean a whole whole lot longer. I mean got kids at home. Yeah, I know what that's like.
+
+[46:08] You know what though? So you have ki you have kids at home. Listen, not just for the far, consider buying a pressure cooker. Pressure cooker is like a genius piece of equipment. Um I don't know if you have the room for it in your kitchen or if you know your anti-pressure cooker, but no, not at all.
+
+[46:24] I've very much pro pressure cookers, just don't have the means to buy one. Oh, yeah. You guys would wouldn't happen to have an extra one just lying around collecting dust, would you? And we we kind of rip through 'em because they use them on the menu. But look, look.
+
+[46:36] So, you know, if you've on our blog, uh we we we don't technically recommend any. I use Coon Recon, and Coon Recons are really expensive. But you know, for a lot of applications, the cheaper pressure cookers, they they do a serviceable job for especially for things like you know, like uh grains like this that you want to cook cook quickly. Um the advantage of them also is in the summertime they're not gonna heat up your kitchen very much. Um because as soon as they come up to pressure, you can turn the temperature down.
+
+[47:05] Uh I mean turn not the temperature, sorry, turn the uh the uh heat input down. And so they're actually fairly efficient cooking vessels um um to you know to just to stop your you know, cut your air conditioning bills down a little bit uh in in the summertime. Um I wish I had the recipe in my head. Anyway, we have texted the appropriate people. And Nastasha, your job is to make sure that the answer is put up into the forum section of the blog.
+
+[47:31] We should we I'm gonna start a separate thing in the forum section. It's just like radio radio show answers. It's a great idea. Yeah, all right. So I'll do that for you, and that'll be there within within the week.
+
+[47:41] And I apologize that I didn't answer your question to I think you've done a great job at uh at attempting to. All right, thanks so much. I'll try to buy a pressure cooker. All right, I I appreciate it. Thanks for calling.
+
+[47:55] No problem. All right. And uh oh, yes, alright. So as we leave, there is still room uh in tomorrow, Wednesday, July, what is that, 28th, uh at the French Culinary Institute downtown. Come do high-tech cocktails uh with uh me uh and with Nils Noran.
+
+[48:13] We're gonna do liquid nitrogen, rotary rotary evaporation. We'll teach you how to clarify lime juice using agar at home. Uh we're gonna do three of six cocktails really, but three different ones done in a home friendly way and then done in a techno well but still using technology and then in a technology intensive way. And so you could taste the difference and see kind of what we do with all the fancy equipment and what you can do at home. That's tomorrow at the French Culinary at 6 p.m.
+
+[48:39] I think it's six to eight six to eight or something like that. Burgers, fries, and liquor. What could be better? You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network this week brought to you by Fairway, like no other market. Vicious fish.
+
+[48:58] Oh, you didn't got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:16] You are listening to Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Today we're coming to you not on our usual day. Today we're coming to you on Monday from noon to 1245 instead of our usual Tuesdays. Next week we'll be back on Tuesday. Today's uh Today's cooking issues is brought to you by Whole Foods Market.
+
+[0:34] Uh, you know, you shop there, I I shop there. We all know who they are. Uh, you know, they do they do some good work, they try to do local stuff when they can. Whole Foods Market. There's one near you.
+
+[0:44] Um, so today we're in the uh studio today with, of course, uh Nastasha Lopez, Cooking Issues Hammer, and live special guest, uh Dave Wondrich, award-winning author and uh master of the inebriating beverage. Uh hi, Dave, thanks for coming in. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. All right, uh, but uh Cooking Issues is the show where we answer your cooking questions, and today I hope some of you call in with some drink-related questions because there's no better person to answer them than Dave Wandrich, uh, author of uh Imbi, uh like several versions of the Esquire cocktail book, right?
+
+[1:15] What else? What else you got here? Like Bazillion Magazine articles. Uh pretty much a metric bazillion at this point. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:22] It's like a cubic bazillion. Yeah. So uh and right now you have a rare opportunity. You can ask any cocktail question you want, and we got you covered, basically. You get you want a science question, you want a history question, you want a recipe question.
+
+[1:34] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh call in, we'll be here for the next 45 minutes. So before we uh actually hit the drink making, I did get one email question that came in on a on a regular cooking related issue. Uh Eddie Shepherd from uh the United Kingdom uh emailed us and he he asked, he's a vegetarian uh chef, and he wanted to know how to do umami without using uh dashi or things like this.
+
+[2:00] Well you're in luck Eddie because uh umami is basically a sensation we get from uh protein breakdown it's an actual sensation that you have actually have taste receptors on your tongue that receive um these protein breakdowns typically uh you know glutamic acid is the most famous one in amino acid but you know other things as well and uh they they tell your body that awesome break broken down protein is coming in uh but and this is a lot of times signaled by meats uh vegetarian though there's a lot of vegetarian things that are very high in umami and they're things that vegetarians often crave for instance uh cooked mushrooms uh uh parmesan cheese anything aged with pro any aged dairy product where it breaks down over time and forms uh you know amino acids free aminos has a lot of umami in it tomato uh has a lot of free umami in it and you you cook it and you concentrate it and you you can get it that way so there's many vegetarian ways of um of getting umami I am not above spiking things actually with monosodium glutamate it's totally natural someone please call in and say that they're allergic to it so I can have this discussion with you. Um anyway the other question Eddie has uh real quickly is is sous vide useful for someone who doesn't do meat absolutely Eddie uh the low temperature isn't as important with vegetables but the sous vide is great because it allows you to do things like uh cook a carrot and have no flavor leach out and nothing go into it so it kind of you can use it to accentuate the the actual vegetables get the actual vegetable flavor in uh rather than uh changing it. So that's our cooking related question and now we're on to beverages yes beverages beverages. Okay. So uh we have a uh a question coming in uh for Dave.
+
+[3:34] Dave's working on a a book now called uh it's called uh Punch the Delights and Dangers of the Flowing Bowl. Ah, right. And so and so someone uh because we we mentioned that he was doing this, uh wrote in and said, uh I I see punch uh nowadays more and more uh I you know I see it all the time now. Uh what do you think the the state, the modern state of punches, and where where do punches fit in in a modern cocktail menu? Uh it's really cool to see, like everywhere you go into, you know, sort of the state of the art modern bars, and they're like tables of people sitting around a punch bowl, just like they were two hundred years ago.
+
+[4:05] It's kind of cool. It's very fun. Uh but uh I I think right now people are sort of at the stage of figuring it out. They've made a couple classic recipes. They've got a very sort of simplified formula that's been passed down where it's like sour, sweet, strong, weak, spice, five ingredients mixed together.
+
+[4:25] But there's kind of coming at it from a cocktail head, and I taste a lot of these punches and they're they taste a lot like really big cocktails. They're very, very pungent and they're great for just a couple glasses. But over the course of an evening like uh back in the day they would drink punch just you know, bowl after bowl until they were all like rolling around on the floor utterly inebriated, which you know we can't really get away with as much as we would like. No, exactly. But nonetheless, uh I I I think a lot of it is is just so pungent.
+
+[4:54] It's like having quail for dinner every day. Right. You get tired of it after a while. So is it is it that they is it that they don't follow the original recipe to get an idea for what the original is meant to be like and then build from there? Or is it just a coming from a different perspective, like I'm gonna have one or two of these instead of gonna be quaffing these all night?
+
+[5:12] I I think people haven't uh have j really just started working with it, you know, and uh for me because of working on this book I had to make many, many, many old recipes. And it took me a long time to realize that I was I was kind of doing it wrong from the old point of view. I mean, these modern punches are totally delicious. It's just they're very spicy and you know pungent. They put a lot of bitters and chartreuse and vermouth and herbal elements, etcetera, which work great in cocktails, but you know they kind of cloy after about uh four or five small cups.
+
+[5:42] Right. But are they overly strong as well or uh they tend to be pretty strong too. But I think you know that's part I'm sure that has to do with consumers too. The consumers also expect something more like a cocktail. They don't expect this this stuff.
+
+[5:54] I mean punch originally was like artificial wine. That's what people talked about it. So it would be you know right now the artificial wine is more like California Cabernet and less like Burgundy and maybe hopefully over time people will go a little more to the burgundy side. Right and of course our idea of wine nowadays has been somewhat warped. Like we we you know we're ex we expect now like a 14% wine instead of like a you know a 12 or some of them are up to like sixteen which is getting into the cocktail right.
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+[6:21] Good look good luck waking up the next morning after a couple bottles of that. Well uh this brings us actually to another uh interesting question we had coming in about uh dilution and they're asking about the proportion of water in a cocktail uh and they want to know you know how how the ice fits in and how the you know the ice breaks down is coming from Chris in Greenpoint. Just wanted to talk about I guess dilution and and and ice uh and so why don't we take your take on it Dave and then you know Yeah I mean I know you've got you've got a lot of stuff about this too. I could talk for a billion years on this but uh I I won't because we're only a forty five minute show. I mean you know the st standard dilution for a cocktail the rule of thumb ever everybody uses is that uh the shaking it or stirring it with ice should add twenty-five percent uh to the volume and thereby diluting it by by that much.
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+[7:10] And and that, you know, pretty much when I've measured it out, that is pretty good ballpark uh measure, depending on the kind of ice you're using and so on and so forth. Right. I mean for me the interesting thing about that number is is that it's based on what, based on just the liquor weight? I mean, like you have drinks that have so many things in them. Oh, exactly.
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+[7:29] You know, or yeah, because you know, your simple syrup is not a liquor, your your lime's not a liquor, your whatever you're adding in is not a liquor. I think, you know, having done a bunch of tests on on dilution in ice and proportions, I think the the best way to do it to figure out what you like is to uh make a drink, weigh the base, make a drink, and then uh weigh it afterwards and see how much water you added. I mean it's you know that's the only way to figure it out. We did this, we found that we add that in a shaking drink, and this makes a lot of sense if you think about it, you want your shaking drink to be more diluted than you know your Manhattan. Yeah, they're different classes of drinks.
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+[8:04] I mean, the shaken drinks are sours already, they're already more dilute. You've already got s as you said, you know, simple syrup and and citrus juice in there. Right. And and and the interesting thing about stirred cocktails, if you look at it, is uh how long would you say the average bartender stirs a a cocktail? Maybe twenty seconds?
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+[8:20] Yeah. Something like now uh that's that's uh that's even a lot. I mean it's it's usually even you know like in the fifteen range. Right. And and what's interesting about stirring as opposed to shaking and dilution is that shaking uh does its dilution very fast.
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+[8:33] If if a if a bartender shakes their drink for 15 seconds, they've probably they've made it to, you know, a after that point that there's diminishing returns on chilling or shake. Oh yeah, yeah. That's even that's way too long also. Yeah, but in stirring, well, especially if you like a boozy drink, which I know you do. Yeah.
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+[8:48] But the but the uh in We all have our weaknesses. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, we turn we have the same one, so it's like but the uh in in a in a stirred drink, it turns out that uh it takes upwards of a minute to get to that same level of dilution as you would shaking for for 15 to 20 seconds. So there's there's a lot uh there's a lot more um room for uh error and room for artistry in stirring. Well well, it also depends on what kind of ice you use for stirring.
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+[9:13] I use uh I'll I'll use like finely cracked or or or almost snow ice. Yeah, that's and that the dilution is fast in that, but it doesn't it's not more than twenty-five percent because it it gets so cold instantly. Right. Yeah, well that's that's the you know stirring is all about surface like shaking is so violent that everything happens fairly quickly. Stirring, you can make it actually faster than shaking if you use fine enough fine enough ice.
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+[9:36] The d the the dilution in the chilling can be can be almost instant. But like if you notice, like uh bartenders who want to have their stirring be more effective, they'll crack their ice as they're doing it. Yeah, and I thought that was a a bunch of hocum until I realized that ice, you know, has a lot of water sitting on the outside of it, and when you crack ice right before you stir, you're getting more surface area, which makes for faster, uh, you know, uh colder drinks, but you're doing it uh in a way that's not adding extra water because you uh you're making newer dry surfaces as you're doing it. So it's actually good practice to crack the big ice. It makes a huge difference.
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+[10:06] Uh I mean you can stir f as you said with cubes, it takes like a minute. I I I find drinks stirred with like the large cold draft cubes that everyone's using nowadays take they they never get as cold as I would like. Right, right. I mean it it's uh you know, people need to think people they they think big ice is the answer, and big ice is big ice. I mean it's it's good at what it's good at and it's bad at what it's bad at.
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+[10:27] It doesn't have a lot of surface area, it's not very fast at chilling. It's it's really good at filling up a glass. Yeah, and it's really good at like keeping your your drink cold for a very long time without completely watering it down. But you know the funny thing is studying like the mixology in the in in in the nineteenth century, if I can use that dreaded word mixology, those guys then they got their ice in big blocks, they had to butcher it up as needed. They had different size ice for every kind of drink.
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+[10:51] They had shavers so they could shave it right off the block and you know expose a new surface that would be dry, shave that and put it in. And so they they had a lot more flexibility than using just cubes out of a machine, which uh so a lot of the the newest places are starting to approach now. Sure, like Richie and you said that. Yeah, the guys uh varnish in in in LA. I mean, those guys are are really serious about using different sized ices for different effects, and that's all it is.
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+[11:16] It's a question of effects. There's no no one answer for that. Right. I mean um he the the funny funny thing is is a lot of times you'll hear bartenders talk about uh they'll they'll give some kind of pseudo-scientific reason for Y X, Y, and Z works. And it's like, listen, is your drink good?
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+[11:30] Do you yeah, you know, does the presentation good? And you know, that's pretty much it. Because I can get into the the science of it with them, but often I find it doesn't necessarily help them make their drink any better. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, you can have a drink that's scientifically good and still tastes like craft. Yeah, exactly.
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+[11:44] That's unfortunately the case. Exactly, exactly. Well, uh that's a good question, Chris. Uh thanks for calling it in. And you brought up uh the word mixology, and I used to uh I used to actually kind of think it was bizarre because I you know it's the same thing with with uh people calling themselves chefs who aren't chefs.
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+[12:00] I think there's a lot of honor in being a cook. I don't see anything wrong with the word bartender, but what if you're not a bartender? That's right. I uh that's exactly that's exactly right. And also it is an old word, it's not a new word.
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+[12:11] I think people don't necessarily know that. Mixology has a long history of the five. Yeah, it goes back to the eighteen fifties, and the funny thing about it, it was it was coined as a joke. It was in a bit of like patter of you know, a a guy calling him um the bartender a mixologist of typicular fixins, like you know, like tiples. Right.
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+[12:27] And it was a joke. And I I I think that's kind of important to keep it that joke aspect in mind. It's is not serious stuff. I mean, you can treat it seriously, but you can't treat it that seriously. You know, you should it still has to have that element of fun and play in it because otherwise it becomes work.
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+[12:44] And why would you want to like have your your drinking be work? Exactly. Well, well, I've come around to the word mixology. We could talk about a word when we come back that I've not come around to molecular, because it's always people taking themselves too damn seriously, and it's an awful terrible word, and please erase it from your food and beverage memory. Uh plus a lot of the drinks aren't good.
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+[13:02] But uh aside aside from that, we we we'll talk about that when we get back. We're also gonna talk about uh uh what are we gonna talk about? Uh Dutch distilled spirits. We can talk about that and the craft distilling, I think uh is is another uh big buzzword these days that we could uh we could kick around a little bit. Alright, so we're coming right back at you with uh Dave Wonders who says cooking issues.
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+[13:23] Oh, how you feel, brother? Feeling good? You feel good? So much bone bella. How you feel, man?
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+[13:31] I'm feeling all right. I feel fella getting down. We're gonna have a bump good tech. We're gonna have a bomb good tech. We're gonna have a bomb ticket.
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+[13:55] We're gonna have a bomb good. Don't take them up, friend. We gotta take a high! All right, we're gonna do it again. You wanna do it again?
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+[14:11] Yeah, that you won't. We gotta take the high. Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have about it.
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+[14:24] Let Red blow up my two courses. And then I want to wave you and let's go on to it with dinner. Yeah, alright. Come on, get that bellow with a little horn over there. No, James, hold on, moment.
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+[14:37] Red, get it, take us higher. Yeah. Take us higher. Brad! Bam!
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+[14:50] You're listening to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. Uh, we're here to answer all of your cooking and today drink related questions. Please call in your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128.
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+[15:04] Uh today we're here with uh Dave Wondridge, and we are talking about uh booze, right? Uh so in the in the last in the in the last segment, we uh we started in um and I won't spend spend too long on this because anyone that knows me have he has heard me go off on this uh at great length, but uh we were talking about mixology as a term uh and how you know I've kind of come around with it, and Dave was making the excellent point that you kind of have to be lighthearted about it uh in order for it to work. Well, it should be fun in some way, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh and then uh m molecular mixology, though, is a horrible thing, yes?
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+[15:36] Well, uh, you know, it's one of those uh if by whiskey questions. It depends on what you mean by molecular mixology. If you're making stuff that's new, different, fun, and not perhaps overly uh pretentious, that's great, you know. You know, i i i if you're treating it like anybody behind the bar has to be in a white lab coat and measuring things by you know joules or something and and and and you're in you're in the presence of technological genius, so shut up and and take your eat your cocktail or you know, drink your appetizer or whatever, then it then it becomes a little a little much. Right.
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+[16:14] I mean I think uh the the you know the operative word here is you say you know pretentious. You don't want it to be pretentious. I mean I think that kind of like one of the best applications I've seen of this is uh you know Tony Tony Conyo con Corneliaro. Is that good? My Italian battery?
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+[16:27] That's excellent. Yeah. Uh at 69 Colbrook Row uh in uh in London, you know, they use all the newest, all the newest stuff. In fact, stuff that you know almost nobody else has, and yet their bar is completely unpretentious. You know, it's a normal bar.
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+[16:40] I mean you can you know just go in, you could have a beer and be very happy there. They wouldn't make you feel weird about it. Right. I mean they have a tranny band playing, you know. It's like it's got hospitality, it's got fun, it's got uh a little bit of uh nightlife going on.
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+[16:54] So yeah. It's not Dave Wondrich's ultimate bar for for any listeners out there, Dave Wondrich's uh uh ultimate bar has uh rifle a rifle range in it and you can shoot while you drink. This is like an old That's a nineteenth century standard. I mean I would have to do what they did back then is they had uh cute girls uh as the sort of r who running the rifle range in the bars, and you would shoot uh and try to beat their score, which drove the men nuts because those girls were all crack shots and the guys were all drunk. Right.
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+[17:23] And so they kept paying and paying and paying and trying and trying again to uh to to beat the uh sober uh you know dead eyes. That's good. That's good business. That's good business, right? It's the same as the uh mechanical bulls now.
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+[17:34] Like you always have the you know, the the one woman tending bar who's extremely good at it. Yeah, you know, it makes all the men look like idiots and then they line up to pay to to get thrown. Yeah, because they don't want to get beaten by that itty bitty girl there. Yeah, right, right. You know, praying on male stupidity is is a growth business always.
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+[17:44] Oh yeah, always, yeah, exactly, exactly. That's never gonna go dry. That well is never gonna get tapped. Uh-uh. Uh so um okay.
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+[17:57] So uh I don't know how we got into that. But uh so that's our take on molecular mixology. Keep it, keep it fun, don't be pretentious. And also, you know what, make some delicious drinks. Yeah, I mean, one one thing I see a lot with is right now it's sort of at the look at the the the tricks I can do with it.
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+[18:12] You know, let me make something that tastes like something else. I'm kind of waiting at I mean a martini only tastes like a martini, right? Right. And a Manhattan only tastes like oh hopefully, right? And a Manhattan only like a Manhattan.
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+[18:22] I'm waiting for molecular molecular mixology or whatever we're gonna call it now, a technological uh bartending uh whatever, to to come up with its drinks that are like that, that aren't just tasting like something else. Right, you know, and are aren't playing around with like let me mimic this, let me mimic that. I mean for me, I'm happy because you know this is what I for for those of you out here, uh this is what I kind of do for a living. Uh and uh you know, so I'm not poo-pooing it or make fun of it. I mean, this is how I make a living, is using new techniques and a lot of it in cocktails.
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+[18:51] And you know, the goal should be uh to make something that has legs, to make something that people want to have again and again. You know what I mean? It's not like, oh that's cute, I'll have one. You know, so don't say that to a martini. Right.
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+[19:02] So you know, Nastasha and I work on a drink that I think has you know legs, but it's no one would think of it as being you know a high tech cocktail. It's uh uh you know uh either nectarine or peach, depending on the quality, uh uh plum juice those juices, plum juice clarified, uh bourbon, little water and and simple. And um, you know, this is a delicious, this is a delicious drink. Yeah, that clarified juice isn't easy though. I mean, that's that's the key.
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+[19:27] Right, exactly. But to me, like that's good use of technology right there. That's a drink people have that drink, and they say, hey, you know what? I would like another one of those instead of, hey, that's interesting. Can I have something else?
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+[19:37] Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's what you hope for. That's generally when it comes around to is people have like kind of played around and found the the little tricks that get them into it, and then they start taking it seriously. Yeah, and that's when you start getting interesting stuff.
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+[19:52] Right. I mean, nothing. As long as it's not too serious, as we said. Right. Well, that's the thing.
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+[19:55] I mean, you know, it's yes, it should I like it when people take their craft seriously, but they don't beat you over the head, they don't make you feel good or bad or you know, disguise the effort a little bit. Exactly, exactly. All right. So uh another thing I like to work on, and there's a lot of new both techno and retro going on now is distillation. And I know you're really interested in this, Dave.
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+[20:16] Do you want to talk about maybe the new movement for very like micro and craft distillation? Yeah, this is this is something that's uh spawned heated debate lately uh on on the web, in person. We all just got back from uh Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans, the annual booze fest for sort of high-end uh bartenders, mixologists, uh, and people who want to sell them things. A lot of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[20:42] A lot of those. Yeah, how much money do you think Purno Ricard laid out for that? Oh my god, hundreds of thousands of dollars, it seems like Purneau. Yeah, nicely done. Yeah.
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+[20:51] Uh but uh and and this is one of the things that's like a perennial source of debate. Uh it's like uh right now we're in the midst of this renaissance and small scale distilling in the U.S. It turns out uh laws have been liberalized. This is one good thing that uh the Republican uh hatred of regulation has brought us uh to balance it against losing the Gulf and all that other stuff. Oh well, at least we got booze.
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+[21:14] I would say I would still say deregulation has been a net loss, but at least we got micro boosts. Yeah, yeah. But you know, you know what happens uh it there are a lot of people who uh have started up and they don't really have uh they haven't spent years distilling, they haven't trained to do this, they're entrepreneurs, they buy some grain neutral spirit from Archer Daniels Midland, they put some botanicals in it, uh, you know, sort of what they heard goes into gin, they run it through the still that they've bought, gleaming new, you know, sort of steel still, some maybe some copper plates inside. Right, right. And then they they bottle it and suddenly they're crafts people.
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+[21:50] I mean they're they're good business people. It's interesting. Uh uh, but that's I don't think that's craft distilling. I brought an example that uh we here in the studio can taste that you guys will just have to uh either dream about or think of see in your nightmares. Wait a minute.
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+[22:03] Let me let me get the sound effect proper. Oh yeah. This is uh from Holland from the Dutch Geneva Museum, Geneva being Dutch Gin, which is sort of a it's actually a cross between gin and whiskey. And this is made from rye malt and barley malt and uh a little bit of juniper berry made in 18th century stills, completely crafted by hand by a guy who's been doing it for 15 years, only available at the museum. And it's utterly unlike anything you'll ever taste.
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+[22:35] Let's taste this and then we'll while we're while we're tasting it, we have a question coming in, I think. Okay. Let's taste it. Let's taste it. It is different.
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+[22:44] You can smell the what's what's the grain bill on this? It's uh two-thirds rye, one third barley malt. Wow, it's really nice. It's grainy, it's totally smooth and clean. Right.
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+[22:53] It's silky, it's a little bit more than a little bit. Botanical's way down. This is craft distilling. And you know, the a lot of this stuff is just not craft. It's delicious, it's interesting, but this is this takes a real commitment.
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+[23:06] You know, wow. This isn't done over like coal-fired stills, uh utterly everything is done in the 18th century style. Everything is handmade. This is a handmade by one guy. Let's give the name on this product again.
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+[23:18] This is uh old Sheedam, original single malt Geneva. You've got to go to uh Sheedham in Holland to get it, it's worth the trip. Cheers, she dum. Cheers. Uh okay, we have a question.
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+[23:27] Who who do we have on the line? Hi, this is Wendy from Brooklyn. Hey, Wendy. Hi. Um, I'm actually new to New York City, and um I was wondering, Dave, if you could uh recommend any mixologists in the city who you really like.
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+[23:43] There's so many. I mean you there ten years ago there were about five bars where you could get a great cocktail in New York. Now there are at least fifty. I mean, if you go to uh uh uh Death and Company, uh anybody there will make a great drink. Anybody will make a great drink at Pegu Club or PDT.
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+[24:04] I mean, these places all have programs now. It used to be you'd go there and you'd catch the good good guy or the good girl behind the bar and you'd get a good drink, and then you'd go back the next time it'd be somebody else and it wouldn't. But now, like Clover Club in Brooklyn. Uh where do you live? She's somewhere in Brooklyn.
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+[24:21] Yeah, somewhere in Brooklyn. She's still there? Do we still have her on the line? Okay. Uh oh well, because uh, you know, now you know you've got options all over Brooklyn, too.
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+[24:30] Right. Uh there's there's there's 19th Street in Manhattan has a couple great bars. Uh Rye House is a new one that's fun and and excellent. There they're there i i it it's fantastic. I mean, it's a shame we lost her because the real operative question is what kind of drink do you like, what kind of experience do you like?
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+[24:46] Because there's so many you know it's it's gone beyond, you know, you just sit down at a people people have created whole kind of the bar as an as a certain type of experience. You know, if you want you know funtique, we can get you now high quality funki if you want, you know. It was very you can go to painkiller on the lower east side and have like drink out of half pineapples and have you know the drink actually be carefully made by people who uh uh don't just throw throw crap into a blender and dump it out again. That's just not usually my style, but uh you know we were there together and I had a good time there, yeah. Yeah, it was good.
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+[25:20] You know, I mean th it it it's it's uh it's a real renaissance. This is uh I mean the golden age. It's certainly not since you know 1920 have we seen uh anything this good, and this is probably better than then too, at least at the high end. Yeah. So it's cool.
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+[25:35] All right. So uh uh Wendy, I'm sorry that we lost you. Um so uh let's talk more about this product 'cause I'm still drinking it. So yeah, I mean this is this is what like sort of craft uh entails is it's everything is done by hand, small production, they mash their own grain on the site, they distill it three times in these ancient I think they're r restored stills, but they're built exactly you know to the ancient style. Uh it goes through the still three times and then gets stored in pits in the floor, which was a fire prevention thing.
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+[26:11] Is you you you keep your distillant below grade level. Yeah, but the distillation is actually dangerous. It's actually dangerous, yeah. And and this is these are little tiny distilleries. The way the Dutch always did it.
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+[26:21] They didn't have big mega distilleries. They had lots of little ones and they all made more or less the same thing. You know, they had traditional ways and uh and you would buy your stuff on the spot market, like, okay, your your gin is good, your gin is maybe less good, we'll get the good one. But you know, they that kept them competing to have the quality up. There weren't these big monopolies.
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+[26:39] Right. I mean, I wish you guys uh, you know, could smell the nose on this thing because it goes on forever. Yeah. No, I mean it's really it's unique, it doesn't smell like any other spirit. It's not uh, you know, there's nothing else like this.
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+[26:52] Uh that's sort of that's sort of what I want what I hope to see from craft distilling is come up with stuff that I've never tasted before. Right. Come up with stuff that just is is so different and so cool. I mean p part of the problem with I think with cra craft distillation and I'm gonna insult people who you know that I actually that I like people that I actually like, I'm about to insult them. Uh but not because I want to, just because it's um i you know uh people want to get into for instance the whiskey business, but they want to have product inside of a year.
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+[27:23] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, th those two those two are not compatible. You know, it's your business model is good for a business model, it's not good for a craft model. Right.
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+[27:33] But you know, but I think that they're they're the desire is good. They just want to have product, but it's you know, the the problem is is that that's why the you know, these are traditions that were built up over a long time, and some of them just take a long time to get it right, you know. And and uh I mean it takes years to age whiskey, at which point your capital is tied up, and it's that's uh admittedly that sucks, but you know that is sort of what it takes to make like really, you know, uh a barrel aged well aged spirits. There's a lot of speed aging going on. They'll put things in little tiny barrels and and kind of speed it up a little.
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+[28:06] And that that can work. It's just not, you know, the same as the those seasons in and seasons out of the the the spirits going in and out of the wood as as it can uh expands in the summer and contracts in the winter, etc. etcetera. So I mean the proofs in the palette, but I think that if you go and look, most of the time, you know, trained palates can they will pick out the ones that have been aged for longer. But but this stuff is you know, this is coming.
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+[28:33] I mean the the the smart people, and there are many of them uh and the the good good craftsmen at this uh are are are they have stuff that's aging that you know in in two or three years is gonna be out on the market and it's gonna be fabulous. And that's gonna be really exciting. It's just right now it's hard to get utterly excited about it for me because I have to taste a lot of this stuff professionally, like blind tasting, and you know, it's you're competing against a pretty well established uh bar, a pretty high bar. So I mean uh I know that when I you know when I do distillation, I'm not really working on creating new like a new a new spirit or new or or even an old one. I'm I'm more interested more interested in flavor, putting flavors into things.
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+[29:15] I mean that's I think a different that's a different process. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying I'm not saying there's skill involved, obviously, because sometimes I do a good job and sometimes I do a bad job, and you know, I I learn more every time I do distillation run, and you know, been doing it for you know f uh four years now or so and you learn more all the time, but it's not the same it's not the same thing. I'm trying to do something different. I wouldn't say it's in the same category as basically someone making this geniver.
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+[29:43] It's a different it's a different thing altogether. Yeah, it it it but I mean uh I would like to see more of that, you know. I'd like to see people making new spirits from grains that haven't been used before. I'd like to see people uh uh making handcrafted liqueurs from scratch, right? You know, stuff like that.
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+[30:02] Uh you know, using distilling their own base spirit, taking wine, making you know, nice uh fresh brandy, and then flavoring that with oranges and making like an old school orange corsao. Right, right. Everybody would use that. It's just uh I just don't see the need to kind of keep making gin and vodka the same way that everybody else's. Yeah.
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+[30:22] You know, it's like okay, but that's all right, but you know before we go to break, because we're gonna have to go to break in a second. You mentioned before they buy a lot of their straight liquor from our Arch Archer Daniel uh ADM. Yeah. And so uh it we just recently, you would love this. Next time you're at the French culinary where you know where where we are, uh, we ordered from a chemical lab 200-proof ethanol.
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+[30:43] We ordered a crap ton of it at at check this out. We only paid I think like sixteen dollars a liter for it for 200 for 200, straight 200 and hydrous alcohol. This stuff is remote has no. Yeah, nothing, right? It's just alcohol.
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+[30:57] Yeah, no, but we diluted it down to 40. We were drinking, god damn, this is sweet. Sweetest vodka you ever had. Oh my god, it's the no, seriously, it's the best ever. And it's so cheap.
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+[31:07] Makes Smyrnoff look spendy. It's so cheap. Oh my goodness. Craziness. Yeah, that's really funny.
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+[31:13] All right, cooking issues coming back at you in a couple minutes. Bad whisky. I started in the save bed whisky bed whisky bed whisky lose my happy home buddy had a party the cats were on You were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network I'm the host of Cooking Issues Dave Arnold uh calling with all of your cooking and today drink related questions to 718497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. You still have some time to call in. We have Dave Wondrich in the studio.
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+[33:21] Dave Wandrich uh has won a zillion awards, both for his magazine writing and for the uh you know, he's written, of course, the Esquire cocktail books of several of them, how many of those editions I I actually only wrote one of them, but uh that was the last one. So the one I have anyway. You wrote the one I have. Yeah. And uh, you know, wrote Inbibe, which was we actually w before we go into what you're working on in uh a you know, at the moment, why don't you talk a little bit because Inbibe was kind of a landmark cocktail book.
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+[33:49] And uh, you know, and it was it was had kind of a unique premise for cocktail books. Well, it was sort of the right book at the right time. Uh Imbibe is is uh uh purportedly a biography of Jerry Thomas who wrote the first bartender's guide. But since he was a bartender, you know, the materials I had enough materials at the time to maybe write thirty pages of good biography. And then the rest was uh I talked about his drinks and where they came from and all the tools that that he would have used and his fellow bartenders.
+
+[34:19] And then I had just chapters of recipes uh with I gave the original recipe and then kind of talked about how I would go about recreating them. And that actually before Imbibe there'd been a lot of fabulous cocktail books. But I think Imbibe was one of the first books written acknowledging that fact. You know, it was like, okay, you already have the wonderful basic cocktail books, you already have a couple vintage cocktail books, you've already got Dale de Groff's Craft of the Cocktail, uh, Gary Regan's Joy of Mixology. Both excellent books.
+
+[34:51] Both excellent books. Ted Hayes uh Vintage Spirits and Forgotten Cocktails. You've got those. So this is for those people, you know, so the people who already have an overview and it was kind of let's get back deep into detail into the nineteenth century, find out what is discoverable about how American bartending evolved and became what it is. And uh, you know, I was I was the right guy at the right time for that I guess.
+
+[35:16] Well I think it really hit a chord because you know there's so many people in the cocktail world who um you know the the mode for a long for a long time for the past eight years, let's say five five to eight years in cocktail world of people who actually knew what the hell was going on was to kind of was a kind of recapturing of lost knowledge and a hunger for history I think and uh but those people didn't have anyone doing any actual modern scholarship on it. You know you had a a couple of older books like uh the the what was that called the Wild West Yeah Wild West Bartender's Bible or something like that. Which is a good book yeah uh a lot of kind of bad histories also but uh I think people were really kind of hungering for this sort of book and so I think it just hit the right chord. Well I I think the the one really good decision I made on that book was to address technique in detail. You know instead of just giving the recipe I broke each one down, talked about the techniques to execute it, the ingredients at some length, you know I just went on and on about this stuff.
+
+[36:12] But it it walks people through the the recipe rather than just saying go figure it out yourself, we've given you the tools I think that actually was helpful to to to a lot of bartenders because I I go to a lot of bars and I do see it behind the bar which is very flattering and means that I can uh try to twist their arms into getting free drinks. Right well it's ext you know it's extremely well received book at least in you know in the circles I I I run in uh you know I I have it I've read it I like it a lot. But uh so now you're coming off this book. This book maybe was that three years ago three years ago end of two thousand seven. Okay, so you're coming off of this book, and this book is a about a very deeply American subject, and you know, the the history is really, you know, the it it's very it's very American feel book, right?
+
+[36:56] And then you're you're coming off of that, and now you're working on punch, and punch is a little bit different, right? Yeah, I mean originally I had a a huge chapter on punch bowl drinks in the Jerry Thomas manuscript, and my manuscript is way too long, and my editor said, you know, uh we can't publish this, it's way too long. You gotta cut something. And I looked at it again and I said, you know, none of these punch bowl drinks turn up in like old newspapers uh in about American drinking. And it turns out, you know, they were probably put in there by Jerry's publisher just to to kind of make the length.
+
+[37:28] And he didn't really engage them in any way. And I realized that's because they were really English drinks. So once I cut that book, it gave that part, it gave the Jerry Thomas book focus, but it also kind of gave me my next book, because I gotta go back and deal with this stuff. And this is a story that kind of that takes me much back into England and British I guess you could call it the British invention of mixology, uh of of mixing strong drinks based on spirits. And it really comes out to have been a British innovation and uh this invention of punch or discovery of it.
+
+[38:04] Nobody like the martini, nobody will ever know exactly how it came to be. But you can certainly figure out the conditions under which it was created, mostly sailors running out of wine and beer and needing something now. And so what era are we? We're talking about the early sixteen hundreds, maybe the very end of the fifteen hundreds. Right, so you know, back before back before we were us anyway.
+
+[38:25] It's not like we couldn't have invented it. No, no, we just didn't get the chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They and you know, and it was certainly uh very popular in America before it was popular in Britain. But uh the sailors, it was it was English sailors, as far as I can tell.
+
+[38:37] Although it could possibly have been Dutch ones too. Right. But we won't talk about that. Right, but like Dutch in the actual Dutch sense, not Dutch meaning bad or fake. Yeah, no, no, yeah.
+
+[38:44] We're real, real cheese eating Holland Duncan. Uh now the um uh uh about just about punch for a second. Maybe you can talk a little bit, you know, the uh about the the pop kind of fake etymology. You said it was fake, that punch means only that punch comes from five. Yeah, I mean there's uh this idea that uh punch comes from the Indian word for five, uh which you know, punch is like Hindustani, because punch has five ingredients, uh strong, you know, spirits, water, citrus, sugar, and spice.
+
+[39:17] Now, often it had four ingredients, often it had six ingredients. So that's put that beside the thing. Uh put that put that to the side. There's also it only com this comes back to one guy's theory, who was a classical scholar who visited India in the 1680s, you know, almost like 60, 80 years after punch was invented. And he says this because he seemed uh learned, it gets picked up and becomes orthodoxy, and nobody ever really questioned it until uh a guy in like around 1900 working for the Oxford English Dictionary put out an article saying, you know, this is maybe a little bit fishy.
+
+[39:51] Uh and I I only found that article after I'd been sort of come to the same conclusion. So I was very pleased to find it. But well, uh it must really be fishy because the OED, as great as they are, has always sucked with food etymology anyway. Yeah, exactly. And this guy's our this guy put out this article because they wouldn't use his theory in the in the dictionary.
+
+[40:09] Oh, yeah. You know, and he he questions it pretty pretty strongly. As as you know, it's like why the English didn't mangle suddenly some somehow didn't mangle this one word out of all the words that they've mangled. You know, it's like, okay. There's that.
+
+[40:23] There's the fact that punch was uh an English word for kind of round things in general and bowls, etc. There's there's all kinds of stuff. Uh so one really does uh ha has grounds to to to question that etymology. Uh it it certainly shouldn't be printed as like gospel truth and moved on from as it is. Uh so it's it's a tangled tale, the history of punch.
+
+[40:44] It's it's it gets very complicated. There are lots of byways and and uh interesting factors that have barely ri been researched. So I'm sure somebody will write a book that will uh prove that everything I say in mine is wrong. Before we go, I realize that we've been talking about punch, but we haven't really told people who don't know what the hell punch is, who think it's Hawaiian punch maybe, what what punch is, and kind of like, you know, it's give a quick 'cause I because they're gonna make us leave soon. Let's give them a quick hit of what it is, and then let's talk about a couple of recipes maybe to give people an idea.
+
+[41:16] Oh, easy. Now uh originally punch, you know, we think of it as like frat house punch where you dump a bunch of stuff into a garbage can. Or then there's like the the food magazine punches with lots of sparkling wine and sliced fruits and they're very pretty and nice and and delightful. But punch was originally as serious as a martini. I mean, it was uh liquor and very strong flavorful liquor at that, uh water, sugar, citrus juice, nutmeg, uh tea, various spices, all put up in a bowl, ice came later.
+
+[41:48] Uh a very easy way to make punch, uh well, actually my favorite way, is you peel uh three lemons with a swivel bladed peeler, right? And put the peels to try to get as little of the white pith as possible. Put them in a bowl, put in six ounces, uh, you know, three quarters of a cup of super fine sugar, muddle them up together and let it sit for an hour, and you'll find that the lemon peel uh pulls out uh uh the the sugar pulls out all the oil from the lemon peel over that time, and you get this thick lemony paste that's delightful. Then add six ounces of lemon juice, stir it up, uh pour in a bottle of cognac or uh you can put in uh dark rum, navy rum, all kinds of good stuff like that. Uh ice and about a quart of water, great nutmeg on the top, and you're done.
+
+[42:40] And it's and really it's all about the fellowship. Yeah, it's all about sitting around with your friends, everybody drinking the same thing, sharing it, talking about it, uh talking about whatever, uh, and making sure you don't leave anything left in the bottom of the bowl. All right, well, you know, you can pre-batch certain aspects of your of your punch and make, for instance, you can make a batch with the with the citrus called. Yeah, you can leave the liquor out and and the water. Leave the liquor and and most of the water out, and you can bottle it and it will keep for a long time.
+
+[43:09] Right. And well, but it has a different flavor from fresh. It's an aged flavor, it's a different flavor in the shrub. Yeah, it's not quite as sharp and and bright, but it it if you let the solids settle out uh and and strain it, you'll get something that's pretty mellow and tasty. And by the way, not worse, just different.
+
+[43:23] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh and a you know, but for all of those recipes, you um I apologize, you will have to purchase his book, which is coming out It's coming out November 2nd from uh Perigee Books. Uh you could probably pre order sooner than that on Amazon, and uh I encourage you to do that. Uh we have one more question that we're gonna leave with, but uh before we we're gonna actually leave on the question, so uh because it's a good one, it's always a a good one to answer, and I want to hear Dave's answer as well.
+
+[43:46] Uh, but you have been listening to cooking Issues today, brought to you by the Whole Foods uh Whole Foods uh Market. But here's the question we're gonna leave the show on. Uh it comes from Phil and uh Dave. If you go to a crap I'm gonna read this verbatim, okay. If you go to a crappy dive bar and your date wants a cocktail, what are the safe cocktails to order?
+
+[44:04] Well, I'll I'll get I'll I'll say what my uh wife Karen always ordered, which works incredibly well. Uh Myers on the Rocks with a splash of pineapple juice. There you go. Done. Done.
+
+[44:13] Finished. Contains its own instructions. Alrighty. Well, thanks. Thanks for coming in here.
+
+[44:19] Well, thank you so much. And this is fun. Thank well come again, please. You've been listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Oh, you dare got me on this corner.
+
+[44:36] And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight.
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+[0:21] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in, hopefully, with your cooking related questions, technology related or not. The number to call into the studio here is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I'm here in the studio today with Cooking Issues Hammer Nastasha Lopez. And we have some uh email questions in.
+
+[0:45] But before that, today's Cooking Issues is brought to you by Fairway, like no other market. They have at least three locations I know of. One uh up in Harlem where I used to live, uh up where my studio was back when I did the art thing. They have a huge walk-in meat like meat refrigerator there, which is pretty nice. Uh great cheese section, uh, and then of course the original midtown, I guess uptown, really 70 and Chain Street on Broadway, and one right here in Red Hook, Brooklyn, close by to where uh our studio is.
+
+[1:10] So Fairway like no other market. Uh okay, so uh Nastasha, we had a couple of questions in uh via email. Last week and this week, yep. Yeah. So let's uh let's uh take a look at take a look at some of these.
+
+[1:21] Oh yeah, by the way, we're here from noon to 1245 every Tuesday. Uh okay. That's 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Okay, so uh we had a uh a question coming in from Richard.
+
+[1:37] It says, uh some friends and I saw Miracle Fruit on a TV show and ordered some powdered fruit to do a tasting experiment this weekend. Do you guys have any thoughts on this flavor inverting fruit? Have you tried it? How does it work? Yada yada.
+
+[1:49] Okay. Well, uh, yes, we uh we love the miracle fruit. There's a bunch of different ways you can get it. You can buy the fresh frozen berries, you can buy uh a freeze-dried powder, and you can also dry compressed uh tablets uh known as like miracle fruities or whatnot. No matter how you do it, right, uh the active principle uh from this, the the miracle fruit is uh a uh protein called miraculin.
+
+[2:12] And what what miraculin does, now you're you're talking on my memory because I haven't actually researched it in a in a long time, but if memory serves, what miraculin does is uh it binds to your sour receptors and causes uh sorry, it binds to your uh sweet receptors and causes things that taste uh sour, things that are acidic, to also activate uh your sweet uh your sweet sensors. So basically things that have acidity, things that are sour taste sweet. Now the effect doesn't last forever. You want to put it in your mouth, make sure it coats, don't swallow it right away, coat your whole tongue with it. And usually depending on how strong, uh how big a dose it is, how strong the one you have, it can last anywhere from like 15 minutes to half hour or so.
+
+[2:51] Uh and um basically anything that has acidity in it is gonna is going to be uh modified. Um the acidity actually doesn't go away, so the effect of when you're sucking on a lemon is that it tastes like lemonade. Typically, I mean people like to taste all sorts of things when they do it, like vinegar and you know, uh a friend of ours, Clifford, who was an intern at the French culinary with us, uh just graduated recently, used to do these flavor tripping parties, and he loved tasting like uh cheap tequila, he said tasted really good, right, Nastasha? Um things like radishes he really liked. But you know, I'm kind of an old school guy, and what happens is is uh I cut up like 10, 15, 20 limes, and then I just start sucking on the limes like like rapid fire because I can't get enough until my lips are bleeding from the acid and your stomach feels like it's about to drop out because uh remember it doesn't actually take the acid away, so it's still eating away your enamel and your lips and your stomach.
+
+[3:43] It's just you you feel compelled to to kind of keep eating them. Uh what else does Clifford really like? He liked uh we did vinegar. V yeah, vinegar, and she uh mentioned that hot peppers, he liked uh like uh jalapeno pepper said, did something, but you know, really just get an array of things that have any sort of acidity to them and then uh just start pounding them. I mean that's basically my recommendation.
+
+[4:03] Um right? No. What do you mean? No. Oh, you like you don't need all the acid.
+
+[4:07] Well, you know, Nastash's doesn't her iron uh you know constitution is not as iron as mine. So uh anyway, so yes, we highly recommend the uh miracle fruit. And if you want to do it under a controlled uh you know circumstances, come to the Harold McGee Lecture Series at the French culinary where we we not only eat miracle fruit, we also eat something called gymnemic acid, the sugar destroyer, which uh what happens is tastes awful. Tastes like you're uh like you're licking the uh bottom of a rabbit's cage or something. It's me, it's completely awful tasting, but that's not the point.
+
+[4:34] The point is it erases your sense of sweet. So anything that has sugar in it, all of a sudden the sugar is completely wiped out, but everything else stays the same. And it's we do you know, we do the miracle fruit, which is fun, and then we do the genemic acid, which is very, very instructive because it allows you to taste uh all kinds of products that you don't think of as being sweet, and then um basically seeing what happens when you actually do erase all sweetness from it. So um strawberries, I guess what you do think of as sweet, become preposterously acidic without uh w when the sense of sweet is knocked out. So these are things you can come experience live with Harold McGee at the uh Harold McGee Lecture Series.
+
+[5:10] I don't know where the next one is. October, November, something like that. You know, go to the uh French culinary website. Okay, uh thank you, Richard, for that question. Okay.
+
+[5:20] So we have a question in from Julia that says uh she's a a recent grad student. She uh grad student recently married and is beginning to invest in cookware that she wants to last basically forever and she wants to get a Dutch oven. I have a Dutch oven, I love my Dutch oven. She says that, you know, she looked at Staub and also at uh the uh La Crusay, and she doesn't like the plastic knob on the La Crusae, and she's like, why that why did why the hell do they use a plastic knob? Well, that plastic knob uh is true.
+
+[5:47] It's not, I mean, it's he you can put it in the oven, that plastic, but it does I mean I'll tell you from experience that knob does chip. Here's the good news you can unscrew that knob and put kind of any knob uh you want on it. Um I don't really know uh of the quality difference between La Crusade and Staub. Uh I think they're both uh I mean someone's gonna call in and tell me I'm a jerk for saying this. I haven't used a staub a lot, but I bet they're probably fundamentally similar.
+
+[6:11] Both of those Dutch ovens are enameled on the inside, so you have an enameled surface. You can also buy Dutch ovens that aren't enameled that are standard cast iron. Um the use of that's gonna be a little different. You want to be careful with your enameled cast iron that you don't get it too too too too hot over an open flame because you can get popping of the enamel. Uh I've had I've never had that happen to me, but I've had people report in.
+
+[6:31] If you go to the cooking issues website and look at our um cat we have a uh post on cast iron uh cookware and basically the heat properties of cast iron and you know kind of the myth, there's a lot of myths around what cast iron can and can't do and and you know why it's good and why it's not. And uh, you know, I spent a lot of time on that on that, trying to trying to think about that uh post. In fact, I was supposed to write it for somebody for uh for another magazine, and they they said it was too boring and technical. But anyway, but I still recommend you go look at it. Uh and and there's a bunch of people who commented in that post uh on um enameled cast iron specifically, and I believe Dutch oven and uh Dutch ovens and uh La Crusade.
+
+[7:06] So uh if you go to that post, you can check it out on www.cookingissues.com. Uh and by the way, I don't know why they use La Crusade on the Food Network uh instead of staub. I I guarantee you La Crusade gave them that stuff for free. So I mean I wouldn't I mean I have La Crusade at home that and I purchased it, but I wouldn't take the fact that it's on the food network as any indication of its quality versus uh staub. Um anyway.
+
+[7:28] Uh thank you, Julia. I hope that answers uh your question. And then uh this one I'm I'm literally just reading for the first time, so I'm not even gonna I don't even have the time to think about it. So you're gonna hear my first cuff reaction. It comes from Pete Stapleton in Detroit, and uh says, I know this must uh sound like a stupid question, but there's no there's no stupid questions.
+
+[7:47] Uh uh that's what they always used to tell me before I asked a stupid question. Uh I would love to hear Dave's advice for cooking pasta. What temperature is best? Does it matter if you boil quickly, then reduce heat, adding salt, etc. etc.
+
+[7:58] Okay. Uh I'm a novice who loves listening to the show. Thank you very much. I love you listening to the show. Uh and would like to uh answer some questions.
+
+[8:05] Okay, now here's the thing. There are uh so a friend of friend of ours, friend of the school, friend of the show, Cesare Casella, uh is uh, you know, renowned Italian chef uh from Tuscany here in the city. Just goes to show you how far afield from normal pasta cooking that you can go if you want to. Man sometimes cooks his pasta like a risotto. Now don't do this with something like that's you know long, but like thinner things that you can stir around.
+
+[8:28] He'll literally, like uh I th I think he does he he uh fries it a little bit first, right? Like a risotto, right, Nastasha? Yeah, it fries it a little bit first in water uh in uh in oil, just like a risotto, uh, you know, sautés, and then just starts adding liquid slowly and it's absorbing liquid, and then basically you keep all the starches then that are released, and it becomes like a creamy, creamy, uh creamy pasta. You're not losing all the starch to the cooking water. So if you want a starchy risotto-like thing, you can cook pasta that way.
+
+[8:52] That just shows how far afield you can go from normal pasta cooking uh and still get a good result. The tricks with pasta are this. One, yes, salt your water. Why? Not because it's gonna raise the temperature.
+
+[9:02] By the way, boiling water is probably the easiest temperature. I don't think it's really crucial, but just you know, boiling water is fine. Um the only time you don't want to go super boiling is when you're doing something delicate like a ravioli, it's gonna get the crap beat out of it in the thing and it's gonna explode. Then you want it then you want to lower the temperature of your of your water a little bit just so it's not rolling around. You want to use salt for flavor.
+
+[9:20] See uh, you know, the inside of pasta has relatively uh low salt, low flavor. I mean, you know, don't yell at me for that. But anyway, like uh add salt, uh mainly for flavor. It doesn't increase the temperature enough for it to uh make a difference. Um the other thing is you're you know you're gonna it doesn't you're gonna want to pull your pasta a little bit in in advance uh just because uh hopefully when you're adding it to a sauce, it's gonna integrate some of that sauce into the pasta and finish off cooking.
+
+[9:46] So you're gonna want to pull it uh a little bit early uh and then toss it. Uh sometimes if you have a really thin sauce, you could toss it uh, you know, over the heat a little bit and the pasta is gonna absorb absorb some of that sauce uh when it's when it's finishing. There's lots and lots to say uh about uh pasta and and cooking. Um, I would get a higher a higher quality pasta is also also gonna help. A pasta that's gone through uh uh really rough dye, holds on to sauce better bronze dye.
+
+[10:13] So, you know, go I would go go that way. But I encourage you to ask more questions and I will think longer and more specifically about your pasta questions. But I hope I've said something of interest to you, Pete. Please keep listening and thank you for your question. Oh, we have some callers on the line.
+
+[10:27] Uh who do we have? Hello. Hello. Oh. Hi.
+
+[10:35] How are you doing? Yeah, my name's Ernesto. I'm uh calling in from Boston. Hey, how are you doing, Ernesto? Oh, that's the topic you were just cut them.
+
+[10:44] Uh I also uh uh check out uh the uh ideas and food website pretty constantly. Your your website's awesome. I'm constantly on it. And there's the uh the whole pre-soak dry method that they've been trying. And I've been doing it yeah, with dry pasta where you pre-soaks, where you pre-soak it before you actually cook it to reduce the cooking time.
+
+[11:04] Right. Now I've been doing the trial and error and sometimes it gets a little too over soaked. Is there something have you ever experimented with this at all and have like more of a guideline or time kind of thing for me? No, now I now I feel bad. I have not experimented with this.
+
+[11:21] Uh Chesary ever experimented with this? No. No, I mean look, I mean like this is the kind of thing that sounds like a great technique. It's not so mu for me, it wouldn't be so much a uh I mean time, because I mean b pasta bowl is pretty darn quick, but it is a big energy savings. So y you know, and and big energy in terms of your uh you know, your heating bill, meaning your c your air conditioning bill in the summer when you're boiling water.
+
+[11:42] Is it mainly for energy savings or do they want to do it for time savings? Well, actually I uh uh uh Alex from uh Ideas and Food he infuses flavors into it where he did it where he did it with uh mozzarella water to actually add flavor to the pasta before. But see, I've tried it and I've gone a little too far and it seemed like the pasta was a little too soggy. It loses kinda like that al dente thing. Huh.
+
+[12:02] Yeah. Because you reduce the cooking time to maybe like two minutes. But the actual soak time, you know, I I guess as far as I've tried it with like uh spaghetti and and and pasta like that, but it seems like it works better with w uh thicker cut pastas. Right. I mean I I think the thinner it just gets too soggy, and I'm I'm just trying to gauge the time and wondering if you knew a kind of like a uh a basic um minimum time that you might need to with different sizes pasta.
+
+[12:29] But maybe that'd be something you guys can do for uh the the cooking industry's website too. I'll definitely check out I'll check out Alex's and uh Aki's thing and see what see what they're doing with it. I mean I mean I've cooked pasta in flavored stuff. I guess the advantage of soaking is it doesn't require quite as much, but the one of the issues you're gonna get a lot of leaching of flavor out when you do boil it back in in a large quantity of water. I mean that's something you might want to do risotto style the way Cesare does, um, unless you really don't want that creamy starchiness.
+
+[12:55] But I'm definitely I'll definitely check that out and um maybe we'll put something in the forums on it, right? Yeah. Anyway, by the way, thanks a lot for your question. It's definitely a lot to think about with pasta this morning. So thank you.
+
+[13:06] Okay, we have it someone else. Yeah, it's uh Hi, it's uh Ship from New York City. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing well, thanks. How are you?
+
+[13:15] I'm doing well. I've got a a question about uh meat glue. I well I kind of test it out, but I don't necessarily want to invest in a two-pound, you know, two-pound bag of it. Do you is there any you know local sources that we can use? Something that's a little more reasonable.
+
+[13:28] That's an excellent question. What do they charge now for a kilo? Uh like eighty-six, eighty-eight, something like that. Um this is something I need to investigate. It used to be that uh you could call up uh Bob Tanay, who's the local Ginamoto.
+
+[13:43] By the way, uh for those of you that don't know what's going on, people who aren't kind of like you know, tech tech people. Meat glue is an enzyme, transglutaminase that you can use to bind any two proteins together. It's uh it's derived from a soil enzyme, it's totally natural, it's destroyed by cooking. Uh there's no known um there's no known problems with it. I've read several, I've read like six, seven hundred pages on the safety of transglutaminates.
+
+[14:05] It's in your body right now. It's like part of the thing that helps your skin get created. It's part of the stuff that helps blood clot. Um this particular one is uh unique in that it doesn't require calcium. It's very easy to use.
+
+[14:14] You just sprinkle the powder onto meats, you put two two meats together and they and they stick together after about four hours. And you can glue anything, basically cow, donkey, chicken, moose, whatever. You can glue it all together, and it it it's not just for special effects, it really helps you make really nice portions that cook very consistency, it's very consistently very good. Problem is is that you have to invest in a uh a kilo of it and then uh you have to keep it in the freezer, otherwise it goes bad. It does last a long time in the freezer.
+
+[14:41] It used to be when you call Bob Tinay from the Ginamoto, who makes makes the stuff, he's the New York City rep for it, that you could um get a sample before you invested. Did they not do that anymore? Uh you know what I I I've been trying to get get a hold of him, but I haven't able to uh to reach out for him, but I'll try again and see if I can get a sample or something like a little more. Yeah, okay. Yeah, because the sample pack, they'll usually send you one sample pack.
+
+[15:05] They used to. I mean the the chef uh the the desire for it among chefs has really increased, and so it's not as easy, maybe. I don't know, I haven't tried in a long time. I'll tell you this though, you know, another way to do it, I don't think it's something because we don't buy that stuff in bulk, Mustacha. So we don't like it's not even we could we could it's possible that we could uh re repack it because I know but I don't know that they want us to repack it.
+
+[15:26] Do you know what I mean? Whereas like uh La Sanctuaire, I think they only sell it by the kilo as well, and uh Dairyland used to carry it here in New York, and I think they only sell it by the kilo. You're not gonna be disappointed. Let me put it that way. It's worth the eighty bucks.
+
+[15:38] You're not gonna be disappointed. It's like one of the great products in the world, but you want to keep it in your freezer uh because what happens is if there's any moisture, the uh the enzyme basically gets ruined, and then you're out um you're out the product. You know, so uh but it you're you're not gonna be sorry getting it, but try to get try to get a sample if you can. Uh and uh th thanks so much for your question. We have to go to our first break.
+
+[16:01] All right, fine. Thanks. How you feel, mate? I'm feeling all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here.
+
+[16:20] How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[16:33] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Let's take them up, Brad. We gotta take you high.
+
+[17:09] Now I won't have everybody. Let's bread blow up by two corpses. And then I wanna wave in, let's go and do it. All right. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there.
+
+[17:23] Brad, can it take us higher? Hello, you were listening to Cooking Issues, and this is Dave Arnold. Uh call in with all your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So, uh, well, we're waiting to see if we get another caller in.
+
+[17:41] So we have uh let's take some more email questions. Isaac Miller writes in from San Francisco saying he he wants to talk about ice, right? And so he he says there's a lot, he's it's aggravated there's so many pseudoscientific uh proclamations about how ice works uh and says he thinks he heard me say that large ice cubes will keep drinks colder with less less dilution than smaller ice. Heaven forfend. I have never I if I ever said anything that gave the impression that I said that uh you know, please expunge it from all sorts of records because that is clearly not the case.
+
+[18:18] Here let's let's go through this a little bit. Uh I'm gonna I'm gonna go into my feelings on ice for just a second. Uh okay, the fundamental rule of all cocktails, this is the fundamental rule of all cocktails. Remember, uh there is no remember, bar ice, ice in a bar, is at zero degrees Celsius. If you don't believe me, come to the lab, we'll run the test.
+
+[18:39] But once you take it out of the freezer within 20 minutes or so, all that ice is at zero degrees. Any deviation it is uh has from zero degrees is not going to affect the temperature of your final drink that much for reasons that are too complicated to go into now. But uh I mean if you take ice directly out of the freezer, obviously it will make a drink colder eventually if you shake, not necessarily if you stir. Very long story. Anyway, uh so assuming that the ice in your bar is at zero degrees Celsius, uh, here is the fundamental law.
+
+[19:04] This is the law, right? Uh there is no chilling other than through dilution, because the only way the ice can chill is through melting. And there is no dilution without chilling because it requires energy uh to melt the ice. So that ice has to chill when it is melting. So there's basically a one-to-one relationship.
+
+[19:26] So in the short term, when you're stirring or mixing a drink, you're not losing that much energy to the environment around it. Uh there's pretty much, you know, uh the temperature and the uh and and the dilution, the chilling and the dilution are linked together. Now it doesn't matter then uh what size the ice cube is or or or any or or anything really. Uh and the big ice cubes are definitely no more colder, ice is ice. I mean, for a gram per gram, uh ice at the same temperature all stores the same amount of uh energy.
+
+[19:55] Now, uh where where do things deviate? Uh the greater the surface area something has, I big ice has a low surface area to volume ratio. So a big chunk of ice is less efficient at chilling because it has less surface area and all the melting and chilling happens at the surface, right? So uh big ice is going to be less efficient. So when you're stirring with big big ice cubes, it takes longer to get down to the temperature that you want.
+
+[20:17] Um and consequently you're also losing more to the environment, probably, although these these effects are negligible. Uh smaller ice is going to chill relatively uh faster because it's going to have greater surface area. Now, the other problem is is that ice at zero has water on its surface, and the greater the amount of surface area, the more entrained water, the more water is present on the surface of your ice, right? Therefore, smaller ice is going to dilute your drink more because it has more entrained water on it. If you actually put your ice in a salad spinner or in a center fuge, should you have one, it's not really practical, I'm just saying, uh, then you I mean really just shake your ice out before you use it.
+
+[20:52] You get all the extra water off. The differences in dilution are going to be negligible. And we've done this through experiment, experiment, experiment, and the d and the differences are negligible. In a stirred drink, the speed at which you can get something to chill down with small ice means that you actually will dilute your drink more and it will get colder with small ice simply because you're not stirring long enough, typically, which could take up to a minute with a large chunk of ice to get your drink down to temperature. So ice, ice from a from a you know, physics standpoint, ice is ice.
+
+[21:22] And then the question is how much water is there on the surface, and what is the um and and then you know what what is the uh how much water is on the surface and what's your surface area. Those are the two important parameters, and then how effective are you? Shaking tends to be so effective that the ice really doesn't matter so much. Stirring it makes more of a difference. But I have not, because of my extreme laziness, done the post from Tales of the Cocktail where we're gonna discuss ice and stirring uh in great detail, the same way we did shaking last year.
+
+[21:50] Uh but I I hope this answers your question, and uh, you know, please put a comment on the blog and we'll talk, we'll talk more about it. Um next question from uh Richard. Oh no, we already did this one. We did the miracle fruit. Hmm.
+
+[22:05] Hmm. Have I answered all the questions? I don't think so. Well I might be missing a question, which case we'll come back to it. But uh but I have some some good news for eBay wins for myself.
+
+[22:17] Check this out. So uh you might know, uh list l you know, readers of the blog might know that we have several centrifuges over at the French culinary that I use, and I use them primarily for uh centrifuge is something that's spins, and with spinning it separates things based on density. And uh what is what what can I do with that? Well, we can make really delicious nut oils, like really mean super delicious, fresh, fresh nut oils. We can make we uh we take cured olives and we make an olive oil from it that I think is delicious, but some people think is is uh nasty, but I find it delicious.
+
+[22:45] I like it. Yeah. And then uh and she doesn't like anything, so that's a that's a ringing endorsement. Uh uh, but you know, recently what we've been doing is we have a technique where we add an enzyme, we blend fruit, and then we clarify and we make uh fruit juice. And that's mainly what we're doing with it now.
+
+[22:58] We're making gallons and gallons of different kinds of fruit juices every day, but strawberry juice, peach juice, apricot juice, plum juice. I mean, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Well, anyway, centrifuges are expensive. Um there's one sweet spot in the centrifuge market, and that's uh for for chefs, and that's uh what's called a three-liter bench top, um, a three-liter bench top uh centrifuge. They have swinging buckets in them, they take uh three liters, they hold three liters of four seven hundred and fifty milliliter buckets, and they can all do roughly um four thousand G's.
+
+[23:27] Now this is the sweet spot because four thousand G's is enough to do almost everything we want to do uh in the lab uh in the lab, in the kitchen, with the exception of clarifying lime juice, but I have other techniques for that. It's relatively small, relatively inexpensive, relatively safe, relatively easy to use. This is something that I think more more chefs would get. Anyway, uh I buy one that's uh Zhuan is the model from Thermoscientific. I buy it because these are out the company's out of business, but there's still a lot of these on the market and they're relatively inexpensive.
+
+[23:55] Um I just got one, a refrigerated centrifuge. This thing's worth probably when I say cheap, it's worth probably two grand, right? One to two grand uh on eBay. Ninety-nine bucks. $99, $79 shipping.
+
+[24:08] This thing shows up, right? I bought it because it said uh that it wasn't working, right? It said it wasn't working. Display doesn't come on, lights don't come on. Let me tell you something.
+
+[24:16] If any of you out there are uh you know what I'm talking about, if you do troubleshooting on equipment, if you don't, listen, this sounds counterintuitive. Uh what you want is to plug something in and have nothing happen at all. Well, because what this means is something probably happened very early on in the system. Something probably fairly easy to fix, right? Right?
+
+[24:35] You know, you don't want to hear that it powers on and the numbers come on and it spins at like one quarter speed and then craps out halfway through spin. Like this kind of stuff, this is difficult to troubleshoot, right? But nothing at all happening, bueno, right? So we order this thing, we come in, I crack the thing open, blown fuse. Seriously, a blown fuse.
+
+[24:52] So now we have for like $179, including shipping, a an almost, you know, it relatively new considering the company went out of business, but like basically pristine refrigerated three-liter centrifuge that I'm gonna modify with a stroboscope so that we can take pictures of uh things clarifying and make them look like they're standing still. It's gonna be crazy. It's like seriously pimped out. I'm gonna pimp the hell out of this thing. It's gonna be like a pretty cool centrifuge.
+
+[25:14] Anyways, so um, yeah, so it just goes to show, like with a little bit of troubleshooting and a keen eye for eBay, you know, you guys out there can get some serious, serious deals. Now, here's my other recommendation. This thing came from a blood lab, right? Which means you want to uh clean the hell out of it. So what we did is we we basically soak the inside of this sucker with in chlorine, uh, and that's not even gonna touch food that we're ever gonna eat, but just chlorine the hell out of it.
+
+[25:37] Then I chlorine the hell, well, I should say the interns clorine. I didn't do I didn't do squat. Anyway, yeah. So we chlorine the hell out of the buckets, right? And then we pressure cook the buckets because a pressure cooker is like a poor person's uh autoclave.
+
+[25:49] But what you want to be careful when you're pressure cooking to sterilize, you want to be really careful to make sure that all of the uh air is out. You want to have the the buckets actually underneath the surface of the water when you're pressure cooking because otherwise you can have uh air bubble trap that might not get up to temperature, and uh at least this is what I say, I don't really know. This is what they say on the sterilizer websites. So I just make sure that the buckets are all the way underwater. We pressure cook them for like 20 minutes.
+
+[26:12] Uh they're made out of aluminum, so the you know, all of the the heat goes into it and it kills whatever might possibly ail you in those things. So it came from a blood lab. Stasi, you've been drinking, you've been drinking juice out of a blood lab for like a year now. Alright? I mean it's like, you know, it's a question of can you clean the thing properly?
+
+[26:28] Are you taking the right steps to clean it? Yes, yes, we are. Yes. Anyway. So that is the saga of our $179 uh centerfuge worth two grand.
+
+[26:39] That's making me extremely, extremely happy. You you you know, you don't know joy until you've opened up a piece of equipment and seen that really is just a blown fuse that's causing it to not to not work properly. I feel kind of sorry for the people who didn't take the trouble to troubleshoot it, but not that sorry. Um it cost you three dollars to fix it. You only got shocked once.
+
+[26:57] Well, a little bit shocked. A little bit. Not a lot shocked. No. No.
+
+[27:01] But I'm glad I opened it up actually, because uh these centrifuges have what's called an imbalance sensor in them, so that when you're not balanced as they're spinning, because all hell breaks loose if the centrifuge isn't balanced. Uh I mean like all hell, I mean like really bad, like makes a bad loaded washer seem like nothing. Anyway, so uh uh anywho, the the imbalance sensor was uh was disconnected, so I did get to catch that. So I'm kinda glad I opened the thing up because some knuckleheaded disconnected the inbound switch, and you that's not something you want to have disconnected. You just what happens when when when it senses it's not balanced, it just shuts the whole thing off right away, which stops it from uh uh flying apart.
+
+[27:36] Yeah. Yeah. Here's the question. Okay. Uh let me see.
+
+[27:39] Oh, well, we have two minutes, so. Oh, we have two minutes? All right. So let me see. Let's see what the oh, by the way, if you have any questions, call in to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[27:53] So uh I'm gonna probably start this question and then probably have to go to it after break. Uh Paul uh Paul Kay writes in and says, uh, I'd be grateful uh if you could answer my question about uh getting meat soft. He's cooking for a population for whom food s food safety is the utmost important and the meats must be very tender. Okay. Um and so he's saying with with chicken, he doesn't have a problem getting these characteristics, tenderness, taste, and moin moistness, but he's having difficulty with turkey, everyone does.
+
+[28:17] Everyone does brother, like unless you use low temper sous vide and beef. And because food safety issues, he's hesitant to use sous vide, um, you know, he wants to get him as hot as possible without without really you know beating them to heck. Okay, well here's the thing. First my pitch for Sous vide. First of all, sous vide, I don't know where the regulations are uh where where you are.
+
+[28:35] I understand uh your trepidation in using them because if you use it improperly um you know it might might have problems. But sous by the way for those of you that don't know is uh is uh where you put a uh food in a in a bag you seal it you remove the oxygen you seal it you cook it uh and then you know you can re-therm it and uh and then serve it. Uh properly done, Sous vide is the safest, uh basically the safest of all cooking techniques and it allows you to get the the entire thing up to temperature. So if you're willing to take the time and investment to do it, I think Sous vide is actually incredibly s safe way to provide very very high quality uh items. Well barring that you could get uh uh a combi oven that can cook at a relatively accurate temperature for something like turkey you know I would want to take it to like uh sixty five uh at least and once you once sixty not at least but I mean sixty five actually at maximum for me but sixty five Celsius uh is enough if you cook it long enough to kill anything in there right uh and at the same time it's still gonna be very very moist.
+
+[29:34] So if you had a combi oven um they're quite expensive if you don't have space for that we could get you get a CVAP oven which basically is uh like a holding oven with a bain marie in it. It was developed for Kentucky fried chicken. It holds a fairly accurate temperature, and you could cook your turkey uh in in there uh at at 60 64 to 65. I think you're gonna really, really like the results. It's gonna be extremely tender, extremely juicy, and extremely safe, and not require any extra regulations.
+
+[29:59] Uh we have to go to break. I'm gonna think a little bit about beef, maybe, and we'll come back with some beef uh recommendations uh in a minute. We've got to payback. I need some get back. Payback.
+
+[30:30] Payback payback. I'm mad to get down with my girlfriend. That ain't right. Whoa! Holland cast.
+
+[31:00] Hey back, here's the thing, you got to see. Never do any damn thing to me. Sold me out the chicken chain. Told me that they had all the rain. Now you're pumped.
+
+[31:31] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, the show where we take on your cooking issues, most often technically related cooking issues, but not always. Uh, call in to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-222-2822. We're going to be here for at least another 15 minutes, maybe more if you if you call with a really compelling question, right, Nastasha? Yes, please call.
+
+[31:53] Alright, so uh before the last break, I was answering uh Paul's question about how to cook meats so that they're tender and also extremely uh safe. Uh presumably someone who has trouble, you know, man, I don't know, maybe like a uh I don't know, someone who can't chew something to the needs really tender, but they also really safe, maybe someone immunocompromised old I didn't want to say it that way, Nastasha, but you know, thanks for just you know saying that. Awesome, great. Okay. Hope hope we haven't offended anyone out there.
+
+[32:19] So uh anyway, so uh we discussed turkey, which I thought should be cooked uh probably between depends, like breast meat, um leg meat, you need to go at least sixty-five uh Celsius from a taste standpoint, not really from a safety standpoint. You can cook it lower if you cook it for a long time. You have the temperature times um and c and you know that on our on our website on cooking issues, you can take a look at Doug Baldwin, I think also has that, uh has some safety uh guidelines uh on his website in his new book. Um but to beef. So uh with beef, um it depends on on how you want to cook it.
+
+[32:51] If you don't want to cook it sous vide, but you want to do low temperature, which is really the only way to guarantee you're not gonna overcook uh the items. Now, if you're gonna do a braise, right? We can all do braises without necessarily overcooking the meat. But if you want to do something that's not a braise and you still want to remain tender, you want to guarantee safety, you're gonna have to cook it for a fairly long time. Um and you want to do lower temperature, I would recommend getting something like a CVAP oven and uh as describing it before, it was invented for Kentucky Fried Chicken to hold Kentucky Fried Chicken, and it's basically uh a hot box with a with a water bath in the bottom.
+
+[33:22] And the water bath means that you can um really kind of accurately control the temperature. In a regular oven, you can't accurately control the temperature because uh A, the the uh you're not getting a lot of good unless it's convection, you're not getting uh really good heat transfer, and plus you're getting evaporative cooling. Moisture is always evaporating off the surface of your food, lowering its temperature. So it's really impossible to judge the internal temperature based on the oven's temperature uh with you know regular cooking. In a CVAP, you can set the uh humidity at a hundred percent on the inside, and you can really, really dial in exactly the internal temperature and really uh make sure that something is cooked all the way through and yet is still gonna remain juicy.
+
+[33:56] So I'd look at that, but I would really also look into g doing low temperature work with a circulator and sous vide, uh, because I you know I think that once you make the leap uh into Sous vide, the the fantastic thing about Sous vide is that there's very little potential for recontamination of a product, and so you can have products that uh are cooked and kept in really good shape and are very, very safe. Uh I mean there really is no safer way to do it other than you know than sous vide, so long as it's done properly. I mean um you know the the dangers obviously with you know with sous vide is that you don't uh you don't thermally process properly and that you you might leave bacteria in or you might not refrigerate it properly and you might get things growing in the bag like botulism, but you know, in a properly treated product, that's just not that's not gonna happen if you just treat treat the food properly. So I uh Paul, I hope that answered your question. And now uh maybe I will talk about some stuff that we're we're working on uh at the school, huh?
+
+[34:51] Yes. So uh we've been working on water. So for those of you that haven't read uh Fix the Pumps, Fix the Pumps is a book by uh uh Darcy uh O'Neill. It's uh basically saying uh, you know, we should take a look at um the soda fountain. So the soda fountain was uh you know phenomenon in uh in U.S.s uh back in the day, uh, you know, where you would go and they would make sodas for you, but it was a lot more than that.
+
+[35:14] It had a lot there was a lot going on a lot of recipes a lot of artistry a lot of XY and Z. So go check out the books uh fix the pumps um you know it's a lot of interesting stuff going on you should read it um now uh what I was most interested in was a section where he started giving recipes for making your own mineral water uh you know in in the vein of other famous mineral waters like you know seltzer was originally water from a place in Germany uh I forget Seltzin or something like that the town up until actually a uh like a decade or two ago you could buy that particular water um and then um you know you know all the famous waters you can you that's known constituents like a Polinaris uh Grollsteiner all these things and so we give some of these recipes so we started uh experimenting with making our own our own mineral waters now I can't you know you know me I can't be normal about this so you go on Google Books and it turns out you can get all kinds of books from the uh late 1800s that have all of the all of the constituents of all the famous mineral waters at the time because people were obsessed with the medicinal qualities of these various different bottled waters. And there's a couple of main constituents that you want to you want to get and so rather than trying to actually make any of the recipes what we did is we we just got all of the constituents so uh we you know we bought calcium chloride actually I have that because we use that when we use uh alginate tastes god awful it's like it's it's hideously terrible stuff but it's in some famous waters in small amounts uh magnesium chloride right magnesium chloride is better known uh to people as bittern or uh nigari it's used to as a tofu coagulant um uh so we you know we got some of that uh NACL, better known as salt, uh, is in a lot of things. Uh calcium chlor uh and then we also got so those are all the chlorides we tasted. Um you know, and by the way, you see these uh these waters and they're and they they list you know calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, like they once they go into water, they just turn into ions anyway.
+
+[37:11] So it's not like it's not like the calcium knows it belongs to the chloride as opposed to the calcium belonging with the carbonate. So anyway, uh okay. So then we also used uh magnesium uh sulfate, which is Epsom salts, which uh I'll get into later. You don't want to put too much Epsom salts into your uh waters. You know, one of the things people used to like about bottled waters uh was bottled waters that were known as purgative, which is fancy for makes you poop.
+
+[37:35] So you want to you want to stay away from pounding too much magnesium sulfate water uh as I unfortunately found out. Uh so we have magnesium sulfate, we had calcium sulfate, we had calcium carbonate, uh sodium bicarbonate, and uh potassium uh potassium bicarbonate, I think. Yeah. Uh anyway, yes, potassium bicarbonate. Uh and so we basically tasted all of these things uh separately to see kind of what they tasted like.
+
+[38:00] So in a different concentration. So when we were doing all the chlorides, like calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, we tasted them two ways. One where there were equal amounts of the metal ion in it, right? So equal amounts of calcium versus magnesium versus sodium in the water, and then we tasted it with equal amounts of uh chlorine, you know, uh you know, the chloride ion in it. So equal amounts of Cl.
+
+[38:20] And um what we noticed is what we thought the calcium taste calcium chloride tastes like death. Uh in lower concentrations, it's not as bad, but it has a bitterness. Um then you know, the salt one obviously tasted like salt. The magnesium one was was sweet and kind of uh almost had a milky taste, which was strange because the calcium didn't. Um but uh when we carbonated then the very high amount of one, it all of a sudden went bitter, something that we didn't have when we were tasting it on its own.
+
+[38:49] Uh but we were using much higher concentrations than you would actually use in a normal mineral water. Um then in the carbonates, we actually really liked the uh the calcium carbonate water and it really modified the bubbles. Because I only care, but by the way, I only care about bubbles. Don't give me flat water, which is like spoiled, spoiled seltzer water. I hate it.
+
+[39:07] Flat water is an abomination. Uh you want bubbles in your water at all at all times. If you're me, I mean bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles. And when you have the calcium carbonate in, uh it modifies the bubbles um and makes it look kind of less effervescent, I would say, but also kind of you know smoothed it out. So the problem with calcium carbonate is that it's not very soluble.
+
+[39:25] So uh really to make it soluble and not taste chalky, we added a little bit of uh we added a little bit of uh phosphoric acid, which you know uh allowed us to dissolve the thing in. And so we made a bunch of this water. We ended up liking magnesium sulfate was sweet and taste refreshing, but makes you poop. So you want to watch out for it. The calcium carbonate tastes like chalk unless you can get uh get it all in solution.
+
+[39:47] The calcium sulfate was not as chalky. Uh calcium sulfate is gypsum, which is another thing that they is used for uh coagulating tofu. Also, I think will make you poop in large quantities. Uh Nastasha, you enjoyed the uh the potassium bicarbonate. Maybe we should work with that a little more.
+
+[40:02] And I kind of like the the sodium bicarbonate in little amounts, which is baking soda. Um so anyway, we're trying combinations of these things, but we're working on our own kind of what we think is like the best tasting blend uh to to make it uh kind of a refreshing, maybe a little more refined mineral water rather than our normal, like hypercarbonated nitrous uh CO2 water, which is also delicious, but we're anyway, it's something we're working on. Uh now, um anything to add on that, Nastasha? I don't like any of the ones you've made. Oh, Jesus Christ.
+
+[40:31] You know, the thing is like i you don't like it because here's the thing. She's like, here I swear to God, folks. Uh, she was like, I like that, what's in it? And I was like, sodium bicarbonate. She's like, I hate it.
+
+[40:41] Right or wrong. A little bit. Yeah. I mean, like you you are very, you know, easily swayed by you know, knowing what's in it or not. Anyway.
+
+[40:48] Uh so I found something out interesting. I was researching uh a book called uh the mineral waters of Europe from the eighteen eighties, uh, by a guy named Tishborne, and I was downloading on Google Books because I love downloading things on Google Books, which is like one of the greatest uh things in all the all the world is Google Books. All of these public domain books are available. Basically, you can have the state-of-the-art knowledge from uh anything in the in the late 1800s before, and some of their state of the art knowledge is good, particularly with water, uh not in terms of science, but in terms of the actual composition of somebody's waters, soda, things like that. Uh I read you know I do lots of research on it.
+
+[41:22] Um and anyway, so I downloaded this thing by Tishborne, and I had this interesting story which I will relate to you in the next two minutes. Uh I came upon this by accident. There is this uh there is this thing in England called the Tishborne Dole, right? Dole like Bob Dole, but you know, dole meaning giving things out, right? And uh, and so basically, here's the story.
+
+[41:42] In the 1100s, the uh Baron Tishborne was a cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap bastard, right? Cheap bastard. His wife was nice. And his wife, she was on her deathbed, and she said, I don't remember his name, Baron, you know, I really wish you would give you have all this great farmland uh and you don't give any of the proceeds of that farmland to the poor. Please give some of the proceeds of this parm farmland to the poor.
+
+[42:04] He was like, No, because he's a cheap bastard. And then she said, Please, please, I'm dying, please. You know, give some of the proceeds of land to the poor. No. So he says, listen, finally, because he was a real dick.
+
+[42:18] He says, uh, listen, um, I will I will donate as proceeds uh to to the poor all of my land that you can walk around under your own power carrying a torch. Now it was like it was like winter time and she was dying, right? Right. She gets up, gets up, gets a torch, crawls around twenty-three acres of the Tishborn property with a lit torch before she collapses and the torch goes out, right? To this day, that this is all true, by the way, this is not like you know, horse hockey.
+
+[42:48] Like uh they to this day that area of land is called the crawl. So as she's dying from doing this, she basically says, Okay, you are gonna give the proceeds of this twenty-three acres in perpetuity to the villagers here, or uh there's a curse on you, you will have set the the house of Tishborn will have seven sons followed by seven daughters, at which point the name will be extinct and the house will fall in ruins. They continue this dole uh since the 1100s. They had one break in the dole starting in the late uh 1700s, uh so it goes from the eleven hundreds to the seventeen late 1700s, uh, and they stopped because uh the authorities said that there was a there was a like a the disturbance. And then swear to well, according to the history, they had seven sons uh in the Tishborne family, and then they couldn't start producing sons.
+
+[43:32] They started only having daughters, and all the sons were dying uh soon after they were born. They petitioned to restart the dole, they restart the dole. One son survived that had a son, and the Tishborn name was propagated again. In the in the late 40s, there was flour rationing after the war, and they thought they were gonna stop the Tishborne dole again. And people from all over the country of England uh sent flour, their flour rations to the Tishborne so that they could uh still distribute it out.
+
+[43:57] Every uh every inhabitant of Tishborne uh is is allotted one gallon of flour a year and every child's allotted half a gallon a year and they still get uh you know a couple tons of flour in every year they bless it with holy water sprinkle it out and dole it out to the uh to the people so here's to the Baron of Tishbourne and his dole thank you for listening to Cooking Issues I'm Dave Arnold here with Nastasha Lopez Vishus
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+[0:23] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I am uh Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, the show where you call in and ask all sorts of cooking related questions, whether technical or not. Uh today I'm in the studio with uh Nastasha Lopez's cooking cooking issues owned hammer and special guest. We're very excited to have Jeffrey Steingarden, one of the great writers on food uh of all times, the food critic of Vogue and uh personal friend of mine. Hi, Jeffrey, thanks for coming.
+
+[0:55] Hi, Dave. Hi, Natasha. So uh actually we have some email questions in while we're waiting for oh, by the way, the number to call 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. Uh, don't miss this opportunity to call in and ask Jeffrey a question. Uh we had some email questions that came in, um, kind of, you know, stirring things up a little bit.
+
+[1:17] Uh Greg wants to know, uh, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey can't answer this but for contractual reasons, I guess, but he has to ask, really, how seriously do you take Iron Chef America? It seems like this is really just a faux competition, and it's a great way to get publicity for great regional chef cooking more than national expo uh uh for more national exposure. What do you what is your response? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. Oh, I'd love to answer it.
+
+[1:38] Oh, perfect. Um I take it seriously, and I've found out about chefs by being a judge. The um uh I almost never really light into a chef from outside of New York. Because they're usually a a hero in their hometown. Uh the last thing they need is to to be on the show and uh and have their reputation destroyed.
+
+[2:10] The only people I'm really mean to are the iron chefs when they do something that's not to uh not particularly good or really awful and uh or or disgusting. And um people from out of town obviously start looking for national publicity. Um and the good ones, like David Kinch, for example. David told me that after his appearance on Iron Chef he won. Uh that he's never had an empty seat in his restaurant, which is as you may know, in a very remote place in in um Silicon Valley.
+
+[2:50] I can't even remember the name of the town. Los Gatos. Mountain View or you know, one of those. It's in Los Gatos, isn't it? What?
+
+[2:56] Isn't it Los Gatos manies? But it's only remote to Jeffrey because he lives in New York and then was in Southern California, so he doesn't believe in that northern California source. I know so I like Northern California, but this is in uh in between. Also Los Gatos uh means the cats. Yeah, yeah, not doesn't both less.
+
+[3:17] That's true. And by the way, on a personal note, uh I've known Jeffrey many years and he does take this sort of thing very seriously. There's there's very little about food that he does not take seriously. Um that has been my been my experience. We have two callers apparently, so rather than make them wait, why don't we uh why don't we take one of them?
+
+[3:33] Okay. Hello? Hey, uh I have a question. Um I wanna know like food myth. You know, people say you can't eat oysters uh without if a month doesn't have an R in it, and you know, white wine with fish.
+
+[3:48] I was wondering if you could like dispel some of I mean, including that oyster one, dispel or confirm some of these food myths that uh my generation grew up with. Uh um, I don't know what generation yours is. Actually, you sound familiar. I I I think I recognize that voice. I believe that's the one and only Patrick Martins, but I'm not sure.
+
+[4:09] I figured I could call in rather than walk across the street. I see. Well, actually, the whole idea of oysters in a month with R is only that you're s it is to not the greatest thing to have oysters um in um you know, from warm water. That's why I'm always a little suspicious of uh Gulf oysters. Yeah.
+
+[4:31] And the Gulf Oysters are also, I mean, before the oil that's spilled and everything, they were the only ones that used to possibly give the uh you know, contain vibrio. And um Right, which is why they're subjected to that ultra high pasturiz uh ultra high pressure pasteurization technique, which I've never tasted whether they're any good or not after that's been done, you know, where they put it under I've never tasted it at all, but why bother when you can have real oysters? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um now as for white wine fish, no, I that's all silly and uh and um Yeah.
+
+[5:03] But you know, white wine doesn't generally go with steak. I mean it's it's generally too weak, but uh too soft. But red wine goes with fish, we know that that right. Yeah, yeah. They they've cut him off, so he he can no longer reply to us, but I'm sure he's agreeing.
+
+[5:20] Well, I wonder whether he knows any um uh uh old wives tales stuff regarding pig jowls, because I just ordered a pink gel from him. Really? Well I'm sure that'll go with with many different things depending on how you how you cook it. Right. Are you gonna cure it or are you gonna cook it?
+
+[5:36] I did cure it. Oh yeah? But only for a short time. I mean I actually got the recipe from Carlo at Verbertus. Oh, nice.
+
+[5:44] All right. Well, a very fine chef. You'll have to invite me to try some. Do we still have that second caller on the line? I think so.
+
+[5:50] Yes. Hello? Hello. Hi. How are you guys doing?
+
+[5:55] Doing well, doing well. Excellent. So I actually have uh sort of continuing the the non technical question theme today. Um young chefs and and aspiring Tamaliers are always sort of admonished to develop and expand their palates. I figured you guys and Mr.
+
+[6:11] Seingarden would be a great place to start with. What does that mean? How do you go about developing your palate? Is that a active process? Is that something that just develops over a lifetime of work?
+
+[6:23] Well, you you happen to hit one of Jeffrey's big pet pees about people that talk about food in general is that they haven't eaten enough, so I'm gonna give it to uh Jeffrey. But I remember there was a uh a young man who was just graduating but from high school. He wanted to be a food writer or a chef, but and it turned out that he was kosher I mean that he had a grown up kosher and I ban he kept on wanting to know what book to read or but and I told him the main thing is just eat everything you can. I mean you've eaten so little in your life and um but it also kind of helps t to eat new things with people who know. So for example, if you go to Italy for the first time, um and you're eating food you've never had before, or you or you've only had it in America, then it kind of prepays to eat with a native, I mean with the native who knows what the uh you know what he or she is doing, t to uh just so you can get a sense for what you're looking for.
+
+[7:24] There's also all of us have about the same taste buds. I mean, there are super tasters, but I don't have to worry too much about them. But you develop your uh your sense of taste or your uh uh your ability to you know to distinguish, I think, uh by putting words on it. And um therefore, all those taste words that sound so uh so pretend well the ones that are too abstract are obviously too pretentious. But taste words can be very, very useful.
+
+[7:55] And then finally in the uh in the introduction to my first book, uh um I described how I became a perfect omnivore by undergoing uh an intense program that I had devised myself. And uh and it was um I wanted it to rid myself of all preferences, um, positive and negative. So for example, whenever I would go to a restaurant, a good restaurant, I would order only things I didn't like, but or that I thought I didn't like. What about NATO? Down, that was easy.
+
+[8:52] But to later, about a year later, um, I I uh did become a uh I'm an absolutely perfect omnivore by um well by eating some really delicious um bamboo worms, uh deep fried bamboo's uh uh in Thailand, they're like French fries, just as long as you don't look at the little face on the end. And um and I was in India, I was in that paid in Punjab, and I had some home cooked uh meals, and those desserts were just delicious when they're made right. So you've come to terms with the aptly named Barfey? Oh, yes. Yeah, okay.
+
+[9:28] Uh but you know, this advice from Jeffrey, I think really you should take this to heart. I think to become a critical cook or a critical eader, even if you don't uh like something, it's wise to eat enough of it so that you can at least distinguish what's going on, uh, even if you can't make yourself like it, as Jeffrey was able to. Um, I think we have another caller. Yes, we do. All right.
+
+[9:49] Hello. Hi. Hello. My name Hi, this is Matthew. I'm actually calling you from the Los Angeles International Airport getting ready to take a flight.
+
+[9:57] But I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask you this question. Where are you going? I'm going to Sacramento today. Not as far away, huh? Uh dreaming.
+
+[10:08] Yeah. Sacramento's a really bad food city, by the way, but that's a whole other subject. Wow. But you know, there is a uh there's a very good Shi, a very good sushi place uh in Los Angeles, and I'm not one of those uh you know who thinks that Los Angeles is is overflowing with good sushi places. Um but there's sushi mori, and he uh grows his own uh rice near Sacramento.
+
+[10:34] Oh, really? Yeah, so there's an example of a good thing about Sacramento. Since you're in the airport though, well, let me get to your question before they make you get on your airplane. You got it. I I know that you've been a guest judge on Iron Chef quite frequently.
+
+[10:48] Yes. And my question is given how much they do and the very narrow time period they have to cook and all the shortcuts they have to take, how good is the food really? How does it compare to say uh uh a really good first class restaurant in New York or Los Angeles? Good question. Well, I was surprised at how uh good the food was.
+
+[11:13] Um obviously it's not always good, but almost all the time the actual Iron Chefs, I mean I was naturally I was I was skeptical about it all. Um the main three Iron Chefs and also Michael Simon, you know, you really want to eat what they're cooking. And um or most of the dishes that they're cooking. Um and a lot of the challenges too. Now I'm I'm trying to think of see this is yuppie food.
+
+[11:46] But you have to understand that. It's um the Mary Sue and uh pan uh uh Pan Susan and then maybe only one other two other two other cooks that I've seen have actually cooked to uh what you might call old fashioned food. Food that's extremely good, but it's not colorful. It's not in small pieces, it's not um intensely flavored. It's probably you might call it comfort food.
+
+[12:17] That doesn't go so well in Iron Chef. Um did they win? No, they lost, but they probably should have won. But uh their food was very good. Um I think it may have been my fault that they didn't win, actually.
+
+[12:37] I feel bad. Because they're very good coach, and their food is just so good to eat. It doesn't uh you know, surprise you, it doesn't astound you. It's um well so anyway, that's what I have to say. It but you know the food can be very good, but as I say, it is yuppie food.
+
+[12:57] But but uh food that is is uh made to kind of surprise you. Um combinations you've never had before. It's uh the it's uh very hard to judge combinations you've never had before. Um is um for example, Wiley Dufresne but when he was a challenger, he did a f a fabulous job until dessert. Right, and then there was a combination, there was a smear of uh by the way, he's Dave's brother-in-law.
+
+[13:28] And I was at the taping for this, so I have some hard feelings about this, so yes. And it was a papa in the dessert there was a smear of chocolate and a smear of licorice. First of all, Jeffrey hates this sort of brushwork on a plate. He has a personal bias against it. He actually thinks it's evil.
+
+[13:44] No, I actually did not have a personal bias then. I do have a personal bias now, uh, only because you have to work very hard to get that stuff off the plate into your mouth. And uh and if it's really good, why do you have to do that? Uh you know, and the thing on this dessert, it was a coffee was it coffee flavored couscous, or is that not in the dessert? It's been a long time uh since that happened.
+
+[14:03] But uh it was between Mario Batali and my brother in law Wiley Dufresne, and I'm sure I tasted none of it. I'm sure that uh Mario's food was delicious, right? Uh, Wiley had attempted a much more kind of uh a mental thing, a a text a textural tasting of tilapia. tilapia, which is a vile, vile, vile fish. Mario, I think made the smart play, which is uh, you know, cover the tilapia with all sorts of flavorful stuff, and uh Wiley, I think, took the harder and I guess in the end, less successful route of uh trying to work with the fish itself.
+
+[14:34] What do you what are your thoughts? Uh, they I would agree with you if you were correct. I love that. Oh man. In my story, in my metal score, because you don't actually score until the end, Wiley was winning by a hair, because Mario is very hard to beat.
+
+[14:52] I mean, he's so but he knows how to do Iron Shaf, right? Or or knew he's not on it anymore, uh because he's probably too rich. Um Mario was fantastic, but and also but also very inventive, too. So it but it wasn't as though Mario, you know, took a a cubic a um say you know a cubic centimeter of a tilapia and uh had covered it with spaghetti or something. It was like two cubic centimeters.
+
+[15:19] Tilapia is an evil fish and uh very bad fish, but in any event Well wait, let's get to the nitty-gritty. Remember how they killed some live tilapia on that, and I believe Mario used one of the live tilapia that was killed, served it to the other judge, and she found it inedible because it was too tough, and then said that it wasn't Mario's fault, it was the fish's fault. This was cut from the airing, but basically she got served a piece of ex basically inedible tilapia, and how did that not get put into the store scorings? Do you remember this? I'm sure it was.
+
+[15:49] My story, however, didn't involve her tough fish. Uh because how do I know that it was tough? Right. Well, I actually asked her for a piece. Oh, she didn't give it to you?
+
+[15:59] I don't remember whether she gave it to I don't remember that. But as I was saying while he was not marked out for anything else he did, his food was sort of uh compared to most of his food, conventional and delicious. I mean after all but after all he worked at uh the the uh but very successfully Jean George. I mean while he knows how to cook many kinds of food but it was only the dessert. No one liked the dessert.
+
+[16:25] So but you know I guess he got way marked off because of that. It was only the dessert Dave it was not anything else. All right all right well well before we go to our first commercial break I will answer one of the caller one more I'll take the caller and then after the commercial break I'll answer an email question about uh purging clams. All right caller Hello Hello Hi. Hi.
+
+[16:48] W what is your question? Oh great I'm on the air. Yep. Excellent. Um I have a souffle related question.
+
+[16:58] Um so I'm a private chef and my main client loves it when I make a souffle. Problem with the souffle you have to start it and finish it when you're gonna serve it. So I've been trying to think of ways of pre making it. Um one idea I had which I tried and failed last night was to use an ISI thermo whip. Um and I just wanted to pick your brain it didn't didn't seem to work.
+
+[17:25] I put about into a pint size ISI whipper um about four egg egg whites and it it just didn't foam up. I I foamed it with two nitrous oxide containers and it just it didn't do anything. Um you well did you get fired? Did I get what? That's Jeffrey for you because he he doesn't like the whole egg white egg white foam thing.
+
+[17:52] Uh most of the time when you're phoning, Dave? Yeah, I'm saying you wouldn't like just a straight egg white f egg white foam out of an ISI. Oh no, he didn't serve it to his uh he's testing, he didn't serve it to his client. Oh, I see. Right?
+
+[18:03] You didn't serve it to him. No, no, no, I I definitely didn't. Um I've never foamed directly egg whites in an ISI. Have you, Jeffrey? Egg whites tried to do it directly?
+
+[18:11] Yes, I tried it. Without success or no? I didn't spend enough time on it. Uh most people who do pre-made souffles use uh a stabilizer of some sort, like a carrageenin, uh to stabilize the foam. I think they make it somewhat traditionally and then um stabilize it and uh and then cut it into pucks and then uh bake it and it rises up.
+
+[18:30] Uh I can think of cuisine solutions uh has a commercial preparation based on uh that uses this and it's I believe based on carrageenan and Xanthan gum along with the regular uh base for a souffle. Have you done any experiments with pre-made souffles, Jeffrey, at all? Not exactly pre-made. I remember uh a long time ago, and I wish that I could remember the details, but I probably have them somewhere on my notes. There was a restaurant in Paris, uh there is a restaurant in Paris that called La Regulade.
+
+[18:58] It was uh the uh first of the cheap bistrobes. I mean, the the uh cheap bistrobes with excellent young chefs. Maybe ten years ago, and one thing he was famous for was his uh you know, Grand Marnier souffles. Um and I was in the kitchen watching him, um, and he showed me that how during the baking, the uh souffle would rise to the top, uh, and then he'd open the oven door and it would sink, and then he'd shut the oven door again and it would rise and it would rise again. I but in other words, it was not so uh duh delicate that you had to you know not even talk loud around it.
+
+[19:29] Right, right. And um I can't remember the formula, but I'm sure there was no uh so-called molecular so-called gastronomy. Right. Oh, the the awful term. Well, look, here a souffle is basically this.
+
+[19:45] You take and you make a base that's somewhat pre aerated, right? And then you bake it so that the it it inflates by uh by created steam and by the uh bubbles that are inside are expanding, or actually both. Uh uh when it gets hot enough, it sets, and if you're good at it, the inside stays custody and delicious. So the way to make it stick around for a long time is to somehow set that initial base with something that when it's heated will release itself and allow itself to expand. So things like uh I've never experimented, things like gelatin, although gelatin's not free sauce stable, things like kerragen that are gonna melt once they get up above about 120 degrees, which is really below uh Fahrenheit, which is below or 140 if I have to look it up, uh which is you know below where the maximum expansion of this thing takes place.
+
+[20:33] So you want to use a thermally reversible gelling or stabilizing agent or a combination of them that will allow you to get the rise that you want uh after the stuff remelts but will gel up at a lower temperature. I I don't have a particular recipe, but that's the that's the tactic I would take. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Uh all right, thank you so much for your call.
+
+[20:52] I th do we have to go to a break or we have time? We have to go to the Okay, we have we have to go to a commercial break, but please call in 718 497 2128, 718 497 21 uh 28 for the uh great Jeffrey Steingarden. Remember, he pulls no punches. I don't want to people to know you're in here. How you feel, fellas?
+
+[21:12] Sure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time.
+
+[21:30] We're gonna have a bunk good time. Now take them up, Brad. We've gotta take you high. All right. Yeah, let's go on.
+
+[21:46] We're gonna take you high. Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let Red blow up by two cores.
+
+[22:02] Let's go and do that with dinner. Yeah, all right. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get it take us higher. Yeah.
+
+[22:13] Take us higher. Hello, this is Dave Arnold. You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in with your questions for Jeffrey Steingarden at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[23:00] And before we get on to our next caller, uh, we had a question uh come in about purging clams beforehand, presumably to get the uh sand out. This comes from uh Adam Lazaric and he's a chef down in Philadelphia and he wants to know whether any of these purging uh methods really work. Salt water, freshwater, cornmeal, etcetera. I would not purge a uh clam in in freshwater because they uh the ones we usually get, the hard shell clams are uh they're seawater animals. I know from experience that uh if you put uh clam in flavored uh water that like uh for instance uh bacon uh bacon and onion soup that has the same amount of salt in it as the ocean, that they will open up, eat that and and get flavored like delicious bacon onion soup because this is something that I've done.
+
+[23:41] Um and then you eat them raw, then it tastes like bacon onion soup. Uh so I know I know that works. The the cornmeal presumably is um to get them to start eating. Uh I don't know whether there's any truth to whether the cornmeal it really makes them eat. I don't know why it would be cornmeal, let's say, and not flour or s or something else like that.
+
+[23:59] Presumably some of the starch from the cornmeal is gonna dissolve and make them uh make them eat it, whereas the rest sinks to the bottom. Maybe that's why cornmeal, but I don't I I wasn't able to find any specific studies. But the the premise behind putting cornmeal in the clams is to get the clams to start to start eating. Um David, what about snails? Uh I try getting snails to eat rosemary ones to purge them out in the old uh uh Spanish style.
+
+[24:22] Uh I was not successful. They died and smelled god awful, and my wife basically forbade me from ever running an experiment on snails in the bathroom again. Well, I would do it. Oh, don't do it in the bathroom, do it in the bedroom. Yeah, well, I think that might get me in even more even more trouble.
+
+[24:38] But there certainly it's but you're uh in the in the kind of uh the you know a classic style of paella uh from Valencia. You purge the snails not just for a day, for a whole period of time on herbs so that they taste like rosemary. And um I've never tried that. But I believe it. I've tried it unsuccessfully, and uh my friend Johnny Azini and I in London tried to fatten snails on milk, also with only marginal success.
+
+[25:10] That's an old Roman uh technique. So uh I have not had much luck with the So it's your theory that the Romans and the and the Spanish are lying. No, it's my theory that I'm bad at it. I see. Yeah, how about Johnny?
+
+[25:21] He's bad too. Yes, we're both both both bad at it. You know, it uh I guess it takes more than a tech guy and a uh three-star pastry chef to to fatten a snail, at least to try and relearn how to do it. But hey, I'll try it with you sometime if you if you'd like. You want to try.
+
+[25:35] Uh when I lived half the time in San Diego, uh every once in a while, your garden would be filled with snails. Every leaf would be uh would have a snail on it. Um and so I was going to eat them. But I had to do research first to t on the uh genus and everything and on whether there was going to be any uh poison involved. And by the time I did, and then I started waiting for the next uh snail infestation, there was no more snails.
+
+[26:06] I I happen to have a copy because I visited a snail farm uh, you know, just north of Tuscany, uh a copy of a book on snail farming that ha it deals with most of the famous European snail varieties. It's written from an Italian viewpoint, but translated into wretched English, so uh I can read it. Uh and we will go over the book together and see whether we can learn anything interesting about feeding snails. But finally I was told that these snails were the same as the snails in Burgundy, uh uh France, and that there was no reason uh not to eat them. Can do an oracle after the reference.
+
+[26:39] I didn't know that the Italians ate uh land snails. Yep, yeah, I I went and picked a whole bunch. They uh they had a special Etruscan variety that's still grown in very small quantity at uh this farm called La Chocola that's uh way up in uh or however you say snail in in Italian. And uh yeah, and I went and go went to pick them. The variety is called uh rigatello rigatello, something like that, like round like a pinwheel thing.
+
+[27:02] Yeah, they're good. But uh they're smaller than the bigger ones that you get in Burgundy, they're a lot smaller snail. But they were they were good, they tasted good. Uh do we have a caller or no? Yes.
+
+[27:12] We have a collar. Hello. I got a question about avocado puree. Alrighty. Uh the whole pit thing, that's just bogus.
+
+[27:24] Put in the pit in your avocado puree. Correct. That never worked for me at all. Yeah, great. Uh lime juice is what I currently use, about three-quarters of a lime to one avocado.
+
+[27:36] But uh sometimes it comes up just too acidic for me. Is there anything else I can use to combat the oxidation other than uh citrus juice? Ascorbic acid, straight ascorbic acid vitamin C from the from the um um what what am I talking about? The the pharmacy, whatever. Make sure it's doesn't have rose hip and stuff in it, just straight ascorbic acid vitamin C has a lot more antioxidant power and a lot less of that uh acid taste than using a lime, which is a mixture of ascorbic acid, malic ac acid, cis citric acid, and a pinch of succinic acid.
+
+[28:06] So the ascorbic acid alone's gonna work. Sodium, uh what is it, sodium metabisulfite? Is that correct, Jeffrey? Sodium metabisulfite also works. Or packing in an actual va uh, you know, a bag that's uh oxygen proof.
+
+[28:14] Current plastic wraps are not uh are not very good oxygen barriers. No, not at all. But also remember that a lime of all the common citrus uh limes are are the most acidic. Why would you use lime? As you mean as opposed to lemon or yeah.
+
+[28:33] Yeah. Oh, I actually tried using some users and some other things, thinking that more acidic is better, but uh user can be very acidic, though. Yeah. It's it's not the acid, it's not straight acid. It's not the pH that's preserving it, it's the ascorbic acid itself, which is uh which is an anti uh uh oxidant that is uh actually stopping the browning from happening.
+
+[28:54] So it's not it's not really that you need to make it more acidic. So you might go for a l less acid fruit with a higher ascorbic acid balance like lemon, or just use straight vitamin C. And a lot of people, you know, uh when they go out to buy vitamin C, they mistakenly buy citric acid, and um citric acid isn't near the uh doesn't have near the antioxidant power that uh ascorbic acid, vitamin C does. Yeah, Dave, can you just mash up a vitamin C pill? I've never done that because I think they have all sorts of other things uh to make it into a pill form like uh you know, like little bits of calcium and whatnot and uh chalk and all this stuff.
+
+[29:29] Uh I buy the straight straight powder, 100% vitamin C powder. Um but I hope this answers your question. Thank you. And uh we have another caller apparently for coming in. Hello?
+
+[29:40] Hello? Hi, you're on the air. Hey Dave, well of the show. Uh my name is Jason. I was calling from Brooklyn.
+
+[29:46] Hey, Jason. Uh I have a question. I'm into juicing and making smoothies and stuff like that, and I've had terrible experiences in the past picking out juicers and blenders and I was leaning towards getting one of the uh you know one of the expensive uh blenders that I've seen on the internet and or on TV, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions on what would be the best uh the best method to go about uh picking out a blender. Um it depends on what you want to juice and what kind of results you want. If the question is should I get a Vitapep, the answer is undoubtedly yes.
+
+[30:24] Uh right, Jeffrey, or no? Yeah, I mean the Vitapep is an excellent piece of equipment, right? It's not a juicer though. Um I would get a champion juicer for they're doing things like apples and carrots, and I would get a Vitapep for for blending things. I mean the ultimate juicer is a Vitapep, a bunch of enzymes, and a uh centrifuge, but that's a little above most people's uh.
+
+[30:46] I bought um I bought a different blender uh uh some kind of restaurant show because it was on the floor, and uh at these shows you could often kind of offer them something and they'll let you take it home. Right. Um and it was the big wearing, which is has the uh same power or a little more than the vita prep. Um and I've I've never found anything that is not pulverized within seconds. The only thing you have to do, um I um I didn't do it the first time is to hold down the top because otherwise it goes all over the kitchen.
+
+[31:19] Well well uh have you ever side by sided uh compared it with the Vitaprep? No, I'd like to. Do you want to bring your Yes, I would like to I would like to do that. I mean uh your Vitapep over? Well, here here's the thing that the the two major blenders that I've used on the power side, so I've not used Jeffrey's wearing, is the the K Tech blender and the Vitaprep blender.
+
+[31:36] Uh you know, look, when you're talking about blending, there's there's two main things that you're worried about. One is the tip speed of the blades as they spin around because that is what's going to determine how much force is applied to your product. The other thing is uh presumably the sharpness of the blades might matter for some for some applications. And then the one that's not looked at a lot, where Vitaprep actually kind of falls flat sometimes, is in the pitcher design. You want you want good movement of the product through the blades, otherwise you have uh problems with improper mixing and also cavitation where you get the you know big pockets of air where the blades aren't hitting things.
+
+[32:10] So these are the three main things you want to look for in a blender. Uh you know, and and the power is basically a rating that just uh correlates somewhat with the ability to spin a blade around and to get a high tip speed going. Um but you know they're not really great juicers. Blender is more of a blender. If you want to mix juice, right, the the choices in the low range, I would get a couple hundred dollar champion juicer, which juices most things, won't juice wheatgras or a sugar cane.
+
+[32:38] Uh but they're great juices. Oh, smoothies. Oh, yeah, then a blender is what you want. But if you're gonna make juice, I mean when I think juice, I'm thinking like a liquid juice. If you have a lot of money, the neutrafaster kind of kicks butt.
+
+[32:51] That's the big one that that that but they're monsters, man. I uh went to a show uh uh and I, you know, and I'm used to juicing carrots and apples and stuff like that, and we all joke about how we're making our uh forearms into you know giant monstrous forearms by jamming apples case after case into these machines and juicing them. So I walked up to this other, you know, this neutral I think it's neutral faster's name, tried to, you know, I thought I was gonna have to force the apple through, and it basically ate the apple. I didn't even have time to push on it. That's how that's how awesome it is.
+
+[33:18] But that's like a five thousand dollar problem, right? The champion's like a $200 problem. How much is the Vitaprep? Like a three hundred dollar problem? $400?
+
+[33:26] Yeah. Um but I I will definitely side by side mine with uh yours, Jeffrey, and we will see we'll see what we think. The reason the K Tech is bad. Dave, didn't you invent a hand blender? I did.
+
+[33:36] I invented a hand blender that is almost as good as the Vitaprep. It has uh it's got a very high tip speed, it spins at uh 24,000 RPM with a quite a bit of power and it's got a variable speed, uh it's got a variable speed trigger. I mean it's pretty it's nice. It's not I mean it's nice, I'm not gonna lie. Uh when when I make another batch, you will definitely be on the first list of people that will that will get one.
+
+[33:59] Um, uh let me answer a couple of questions. I have a one that uh a quick one uh from uh Michael at Herbav Herbivarace how do you spell it? Herbivoraceous. Uh wants to know whether there's any transglutaminate, uh transglutaminate is meat glue, it glues meat together, uh actually any proteins. Wants to know if there's any um applications for vegetables.
+
+[34:20] Uh well, tofu can be strengthened with transglutaminase and uh yogurts and other dairy systems can be strengthened with transglutaminates. You c you can glue vegetables together with transglutaminates, but unfortunately you have to use gelatin as a helper protein, and this is something that Wiley, my brother in law, has uh tested out quite a bit, where he um cross links gelatin to form noodles out of vegetables um using transglutaminates, but unfortunately uh gelatin is not vegetarian. Uh the second question he has is can melons be compressed without a vacuum machine? Uh it's tough. No, yeah.
+
+[34:54] You can infuse without a vacuum machine, but you can I j uh could I have not found any way to compress uh without a vacuum machine. I have never eaten anything. I believe that was made with meat glue. That was worth eating sorry Dave Wow Wow what does that mean how do you know that you've how how can you first of all the question is what what do you mean? And secondly how would you know whether or not meat glue was used necessarily because you asked them how did you make this in every case?
+
+[35:32] If someone just hands you a piece of meat that's not necessarily obviously been meat glued you ask them whether it was meat glued or not? So then I would love probably would love to taste it. Most people don't do that most people use it to play tricks. For example your and Nil's turduccin first of all you had a very early version of it. First of all let me just say you had a very early version of it.
+
+[35:54] Traditional turduccan is an abomination because it cannot possibly be cooked right. It is not true that there is an over K uh okay way to overcook duck. And it's also not true that it's okay to just bathe uh overcooked duck in fat and sauces and then pretend that you haven't overcooked it. Well who said there was well I'm presuming that you're sticking up for traditional turduckin no. No okay uh but you had a very early early version of the meat glue version.
+
+[36:18] No well first of all as I said you had a very early version. Uh second of all I think you're wrong that uh most things are used for special effects. The the most general use for uh meat glue is just in making uh portions that cook evenly and nicely. I mean that's the majority of the use it's just it doesn't get any of the press well we'll have to discuss the um um I can't remember the name of the cut anymore that they have at um uh um with your brother in law's restaurant to pay a flat iron. Yeah and you take out the uh cartilage piece?
+
+[36:57] Yeah, yep. Uh because uh although you hate this sort of thing, there are people who don't like to cut around the cartilage when they eat something. Well, it would be better not to have cartilage, but um maybe the flat iron isn't the best uh stake to eat in the first place. You don't think it tastes good? Not as good as uh say the thirty other parts of the cow.
+
+[37:20] Wow the steer. Yeah. All right. Well, let's let me let me hit one more quick question because I already asked uh one question from Greg, but not the one he actually wanted us to answer. Um so uh Greg emailed us and said, uh can can I talk a little more about reducing the uh capsation level in uh peppers, uh hot peppers habaneros, specifically uh because he uses a surgical technique to remove the inside of the skin to get rid of the uh majority of the capsation to make them not as uh hot.
+
+[37:51] Presumably he does this because habaneros have a unique and amazing floral aroma and taste. Uh he's interested in using an enzyme that we use called uh uh SPL with a or former one called peelzyme that kind of destroys tissue. He wants to know whether we can basically erase this layer of tissue on the inside of the pepper that has the capsation. Unfortunately, the stuff that it that in a pepper, the thing you eat is the mesocarp, right? That same mesocarp in a citrus fruit is the albedo, right?
+
+[38:19] So the stuff that's dissolved by peelzyme, which is this enzyme, is the actual meat of the pepper. Now, the majority of capsation in a pepper is contained on the inside surface of the uh of the inside skin of the of the pepper inside uh and somewhat in the veins. So you could preferentially melt this top layer away with this enzyme, but then you're gonna contaminate the whole the whole pepper with it. So I don't think it's necessarily gonna be helpful. I think you're much better using what you what you do now, which is use a knife.
+
+[38:44] It's just a pain in the butt. Another um another uh route you might take is to is to look for a source of ah how do you pronounce it? Ahi ahi dulce? Ahi ahi pepper? Ahi AJ Dulce?
+
+[38:57] Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Anyone? Uh the uh it's called it's a sweet pepper that looks like a habanero and supposedly has the aroma and taste of a of a habanero comes from uh without the spice. It comes from Venezuela. I've only had three or four of them in my life and I didn't find them to be quite as floral or or aromatic as a habanero.
+
+[39:16] But um they're in the same ballpark and they require no manipulation whatsoever. I believe they are a characteristic ingredient in um some traditional Venezuelan dishes but I have never been to Venezuela so I don't know. Uh but also Peruvian food and um but but also in Ecuador in Ceviche. The the the Aji Dulce? Yeah.
+
+[39:39] Yeah. Uh do you think it has as good a an aroma or taste as the habanero? Well it's inter uh I think this is a a a very interesting question and an interesting idea because we all know that different peppers have wonderful different kind of aromatic and floral tastes but you can rarely taste them because your tongue is thinking about other things. Right right. So I think this is a wonderful question.
+
+[40:07] I don't see why it's such a Dave what did you call it pain in the butt? Is that pain in the butt well yeah the words you use yes yeah to uh um you know, uh in the past in in restaurant kitchens, they used to even peel grapes. Or um for a a terrible dish, yes, so silver on eat, right? That's a terrible dish. That's right.
+
+[40:29] Yeah. Or um uh David Boulet uh uh uh when he was introducing uh uh a version of Joe Robichon's um famous mashed potatoes, uh using the hot potato, although he was using fingerlings. And they have to be peeled and they're small. And so he had a whole he said he supported a whole Salvadoran family to peel hot potatoes um all day long for his potato puree. And so that was a good thing, supporting them by rather than supporting them by doing something else.
+
+[41:14] Well, one of them went on to Harvard and got a Nobel Prize. This is what we call a lie. Is this true? Is this a lie, yeah. Uh yeah, that seems like uh, you know, Marx's dream, someone sitting in a basement peeling tiny little potatoes constantly uh, you know.
+
+[41:28] Uh nice great way the kitchen. What should he have had them do? A lot of kitchen work though is nice and dehumanizing. You gotta get into the zen of it, right, Jeffrey, you like that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[41:38] Um, but he's not peeling the outside of these peppers, it's peeling the inside. And the real problem is is that any sort of contamination, and you've just ruined your whole job, you know what I mean? That's kind of uh probably the panel. No, could you explain that again? So uh he's like he's like taking and cutting the cap off and removing it carefully without cutting all the way through, popping it off, opening it, and then removing the inner skin, presumably without slipping and contaminating and getting the super hot parts into the not so hot parts.
+
+[42:03] Seems difficult. Well, he doesn't have to be one thousand percent accurate, you know. I mean, he's trying to get rid of of of uh much of the you know, of the jalignaro's hotness in order to be able to to taste the floral part. It can still be a little hot. Yeah, I I guess I guess you are correct.
+
+[42:22] And I think the other thing to do is to buy a rotary evaporator. I don't know. I was specifically told last week not to mention buying a rotary evaporator as as the one that's. Oh, I'd love to have one. I've never played with yours.
+
+[42:31] Well, you you're welcome anytime, Jeffrey. And uh uh here is another question that comes in, uh Matt from Chicago, uh, and this is right up Jeffrey's alley as well. Uh I recently bought a bag of MSG from my local Asian grocery store to experiment, but whenever I use it, I can't help to be reminded of instant soup mix. Is there a secret uh to help using uh MSG to blend with other flavors? And uh before I let Jeffrey launch into this, because this is a subject dear to his heart, uh, I will just say you're probably using too much because uh MSG is not used in the same quantities that you would use salt or other other spices.
+
+[43:04] And with that I will I will hand it over to Jeffrey. Well, I'm afraid that I can't give you advice about about the best way to use it. One thing is don't use it in soup. Because you'll probably be able to taste or sense it too much. But you can certainly use it in uh in many other things, and and uh I just remember that glutamic acid MSG is is you know the same flavor enhancer that's been used in um in Asia, uh, you know, drained out of uh giant kelp for many, many, many years.
+
+[43:43] Yeah. And uh maybe you should try giant kelp. Yeah, and we uh yeah, um uh combo, for instance for me tongues uh but you know, you're you you're also and uh I don't mean, you know, I think most of our listeners are not anti MSG, but you know, Jeffrey wrote uh was very early uh writer in the food world on debunking the uh fact that uh you think you might have a reaction to MSG. Uh was that in your first book? Was that in the The Man Who Ate Everything?
+
+[44:12] Um I believe it was uh um in the first book and it was called to might have been the second book and it was called why doesn't everybody in China have a headache. Right. Uh and I actually did a survey in China after lunch um asking people do you have a headaches? And what did they say? No one had a headache.
+
+[44:31] Uh it's it's very that that is actually an interesting I mean the reading the literature on MSG is uh boring with the and I'll try and get it and put it up on the forum with the exception of one article written by a scientist uh who um just lambasses anyone I mean I I'll have to get it but you know the the the from a science standpoint it's it's somewhat ludicrous to think you have a reaction to it because um uh you your body makes more uh glutamic acid in your head than uh than you could ever normally reasonably consume because it's a neurotransmitter and you need it to live um but that's that's but don't you think that the original disc uh discovery of the uh Chinese restaurant syndrome which was a phrase um invented uh by the New England Journal of Medicine which uh uh uh captioned a letter from a a mass general or Beth Israel uh doctor in Boston who had this experience that he wrote a letter asking to the Newland Journal of Medicine asking whether anyone else had noticed it. Because he became flushed after a a a large number of bowls of wonton soup. And in those days Oh, so it was the Greenland Journal of Medicine that thought of the idea of a Chinese restaurant syndrome. Of course that isn't is uh no longer believed to be politically correct. Um even though it's the the first discovery of it there was in a Boston Chinese restaurant.
+
+[46:05] Most people don't remember those days, say 1964 or so I do. But there's no doubt that they would uh dump huge amounts of MSG in in Wonton soup and that if you drank it on an empty stomach, I think you probably could get a dose that that if you're s especially sensitive to it might affect you. Okay, well the the sci the scientific literature on uh blood levels of um uh of glutamic acid upon consumption are that if you consume uh MSG with any sort of food at all, your blood levels don't spike. So but how about soup? Right.
+
+[46:43] If you consume liquid only that doesn't have a lot of other stuff going on, it is true that you can get uh a spike in um in in glutaminate level in your blood that lasts uh up to a hundred and twenty minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so the you know th there is that spike it's only when you're drinking uh kind of only fluids and it's only in really large doses. So I don't know how much they were adding in Boston.
+
+[47:07] But then furthermore recent research on this has been that even at those levels there doesn't appear to be that much of a um that much I mean or any really reaction. So that m most of the studies that have shown reactions were not uh properly blinded. They weren't uh you know, they they would put MSG into a a strongly flavored citrus beverage and assume that no one could taste the MSG. Uh when when studies are given of uh MSG in gelatin capsules consumed on an empty stomach, then there doesn't appear to be a statistical um effect. I mean I I've been meaning to do a post on this for a long time 'cause I had to read like six hundred pages of this crap because someone asked me a question once and I read like six hundred pages of crap on MSG.
+
+[47:52] So I can go back and kind of re redo it because it was, you know, like six months ago or something that I did the research, but I mean is this jibe with what you remember, Jeffrey or no. But let me ask you, David, before I ask you about why you're being so um blasé about the dangers of carragenin, um there's a whole literature on that you know I I I never I when was I blase about the dangers you advised someone before t to to to put kerogenin in in their food. Yeah well you advi mean like we all advise things that aren't necessarily a hundred percent uh you know it it's a traditional ingredient care you know it's a traditional ingredient. By the way the the research on on carragenin is only that certain types of carrageenin, I believe Kappa carragenin specifically, in very in low pH systems and very acidic systems might have uh some association with certain types of cancer. Um I don't happen to use carrageenin that often presumably souffles are not a super high acid system.
+
+[48:50] No. No. Um but we have a we have a we have a you know but I'm sure I'm sure I'm gonna get questions on that uh on that soon. Uh all right. Oh, we have a caller coming in.
+
+[49:03] Yeah. Hi, Dave. This is Kent Kirschenbaum. Hey, hey, Kent. Good to speak to you.
+
+[49:07] Yeah. Listen, I have my own notion on what's going on with MSG, and that's that there's these persistent anecdotal reports that there is a reaction. So what could be happening? Well, one of the ways that MSG is produced is by microbial fermentation. And if the purification from the fermentation is not done properly, I think there could be other compounds in that preparation that could give uh you know negative reaction.
+
+[49:34] And so you think presumably that would be something that was more prevalent in the past? Yeah, I think they've gotten a lot better at the fermentation and purification techniques, and that I'm not surprised that there might have been more of these anecdotal reports back in the nineteen sixties than there are now. That's interesting. I never I never thought about that, by the way. For our listeners, this is Kent Kirstenbaum, one of the founders of the experimental cuisine collective and professor of uh polymer chemistry at NYU.
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+[49:59] Um that's correct, right, Kent? Pretty much? That's it. Yeah. Um as I was able as I was to find out if you write anything about MSG that is not negative, or at least if you're one of the first ones to have done that, there are hordes of people out there who are sure that their children were brain damaged.
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+[50:20] Um as a result of the MSG in their food. Okay. So brain damage in MSG is a very interesting question. MSG is actually used as an agent to cause brain damage in neonatal uh rodents. Uh the blood brain barrier in a neonatal rodent is nowhere near as developed as the blood brain barrier in a human being.
+
+[50:39] They fed absurd doses to these uh rats and mice to cause brain damage on the equivalent of a full grown uh man eating uh something like two hundred and fifty grams of m straight MSG in a sitting on an empty stomach. Uh the uh similar doses were tried on neonatal monkeys, and unfortunately, and uh that were shown not to have that brain damage uh effect. So I know that those studies have been thoroughly debunked, but that has not but that doesn't address really Kent's question on whether it's possible that there was a uh second contaminant that would cause uh some sort of reaction back in the sixties and seventies. I don't know. Basically we're uh I um I believe we're talking about nineteen sixty-three, not necessarily the fifties.
+
+[51:28] But uh but let me ask you, Dave. Some people objected, um and I assume they were wrong when I was talking about how a a um there was an Australian study, although again the MSG was supplied by the Agenamoto companies, so people are always suspicious. Um they were the largest manufacturers of MSG. Uh anyway, there was an Australian study showing that there was more glutamic acid in an Italian meal, largely because of the uh about tomatoes in the parmesan. Uh uh than in a Chinese meal.
+
+[52:03] Also we know that in in Japanese meals there could be the more glutamic acid, and no one talks about the the um the Japanese restaurant syndrome. Uh but is it possible that uh natural glutamic acid is different? I don't see how that's possible. I mean, unless that you know what Kent was saying that it might be contaminated, but I mean it's it's the sodium salt basically of uh glutamic acid. It is providing by weight, I think roughly one third the sodium that table salt would, so there's extra salt, there's extra sodium involved.
+
+[52:37] But uh I don't see how it's I don't see how it's possible because it's also produced from a biological system. It's not it's not produ it's not it's not like you're dealing with like a a a different um you know uh isomer or something like that. I mean they're they're pr both produced biologically. Um I don't I don't see how it could possibly be different. Uh Ken, are you still there?
+
+[52:58] Do you see a way that could be different or is Ken already gone? I I don't see how it can be different, to be honest. And as far as the salt form of it, I mean once it hits your stomach, that that counter ion is going to be swapped out almost instantaneously. So I I agree with you, Dave, on this, that I I think it'd be hard to imagine how there could be differences in the monosodium glutamate itself. Now there could very well be differences in the, you know, one percent or point one percent of whatever additional material is there in the commercial MSG as opposed to what's in your your your natural food.
+
+[53:34] Right. I mean I I think a lot of the reaction has to do with when people eat something that's unfamiliar to them, they then have a reaction because they've eaten something unfamiliar, that I've been poisoned or I've eaten something terrible, and then they have some sort of a re reaction to it. And I think uh some of the studies have shown that uh that these effects that are linked with uh with the s with the the syndrome, we'll call it, uh, are basically just uh the effects of eating unfamiliar foods uh on people's psyche. Uh I don't I don't know what you guys think of that. Although the the the uh first report of the New England Journal of Medicine was um by a g uh a a doctor of uh Chinese ancestry.
+
+[54:16] I I remember this, yeah. Who ate a lot of of wonton soup in Boston all the time. So I don't think he was but did he have a headache all the time or just once? No, he got flushed. He didn't have a headache.
+
+[54:27] But all the time? Yeah, very flushed. He only reported once. Uh if I went back and read that and it also seems a little bit tongue in cheek and then was taken seriously by a lot of people. I mean that's why they named the Chinese Restaurant Syndrome in the in the New England Journal of Medicine.
+
+[54:42] Right. Dave Anken, let me ask you a question if I could. All right. When I was doing an Oracle a long time ago on whether it was bad to eat salt um I came across a number of papers showing that even those people who were salt sensitive and had a a blood pressure reaction to a high salt diet did not have the same reaction to other sodium compounds. For example baking soda and baked goods even though in the very old days doctors also warned you not to eat too many baked goods.
+
+[55:30] Because of the baking soda but when it was tested on people there was either no reaction or very little reaction from all the other sodium compounds. I mean in our but in our diets now we probably have 50 or 100 sodium compounds. Before I let Kent answer because he's actually probably knows what he's talking about, I will ask you this, Jeffrey, before before we can answer is uh did they measure for m like actual moles of sodium consumed or just weight of the compound sodium bicarbonate which is a lot heavier than salt per mole. Dave, I have to assume that because they were scientists that they measured the right thing. That I I would not assume that, actually, because I've read so I've just spent so much time reading crappy scientific papers that I can never assume that somebody has measured the proper proper thing.
+
+[56:17] Kent, what what are your thoughts? I'll I'll hand it over to you. Yeah, I I agree with your John Dis assessment of the scientific literature, and because of it, I I'd hesitate to uh to answer what exactly was going on in those studies unless I'd read them and and poured over those kinds of details. Well it's certainly true that in the the popular literature and in the uh press releases of of people like Mayor Bloomberg, salt and sodium are used interchangeably and there's no attempt to get sodium out of our fast food, out of our diets. There's only an attempt to reduce the amount of salt.
+
+[56:56] Right. You know well that the question is how are they going to measure it? Like am I allowed to then add some sodium salt uh some sodium compound and then add a chloride compound and end up with sodium chloride in my in my product? Is that legal? Is that gonna be okay now?
+
+[57:09] I mean, the whole thing about reducing salt seems to be I guess it's the next crazy thing that's gonna happen to us, huh? Um I think it's it is time for all good people and reading more of the research and publishing it in in letters to the New York Times and the LA Times and the San Francisco Chronicle. I mean, it seems and you know, Kent and I have talked about this a lot. Kent, you should come on the show sometime actually. We would talked about this a lot, which is no one uh even scientists who who are researching things outside of their normal field, like like doctors, tend not to do the tend not to do the level of research into the quality of the of the science that they're quoting when they talk about nutrition.
+
+[57:53] Uh and so much of it is just crap. Um and and crap based on other crap. If you read the uh the uh you know the the citations that some of these studies uh cite, which is why whenever I research something I end up having to read five, six hundred pages because you have to burrow back and find the source of crap. And you know, I know Jeffrey, you do this. Uh whenever you research something, you'll research something and then the sites of the sites and the sites of the sites, and but who has the time?
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+[58:20] I mean, Jeffrey's made a a career on being thorough, you know what I mean? But you know, most people don't. But you know, one thing that I took a back in, say I don't know, nineteen ninety two, when I read all uh uh all the literature as of that time, there was no doubt there's not been shown that there was a a uh connection uh uh between eating salt and then having a blood high blood pressure, except among say six percent of the popul to the population and the head of the um of the New York hospital uh uh comprehensive hypertension study but certainly agreed with me. He thought it wasn't as high as six percent. He's a but he thought it was uh you know as low as as uh five percent.
+
+[59:07] Then all of a sudden I noticed five years ago that there was a uh uh uh but but by the way, there were a lot of doctors um and scientists at that time who found it but very threatening because their whole lives have been based on a career of advising uh people not to eat salt. Um and uh but the backlash back in those days was not very strong. And then I noticed starting five years ago, there was a uh a huge and sudden campaign by all these people against salt. Right. And I thought we had defeated that.
+
+[59:44] That's what I thought. I uh I I thought it was all gone, and then someone, some medical students sent me uh uh, you know, sent me a letter or an email, you know, you know, saying Mr. Strongjordan, don't you realize you're totally wrong about and then we had many exchanges. And they uh there was a big worldwide study called the Intrasol Study, and uh I can't remember exactly when it was, it was 1988 or 89. Um all over the world the people took urine samples in order to determine how much uh salt had been eaten by that person.
+
+[1:00:21] Um and um I don't know I don't know, took their uh their blood pressure. They took several urine samples from each person and they sent it to to different laboratories uh in Europe after freezing it. I mean, it was a massive and it that seems to me to have been uh an extremely meticulous study. Um and there was a correlation. But after you eliminated certain, if I may call them, uh primitive peoples who ate no salt at all because they didn't have any salt, like the the Yanamamo Indians, who were always used as kind of poster Indians for for this proposition, but even ignoring the fact that between one third and a half of all the males in the Yanamong society uh died from the homicide.
+
+[1:01:18] They have other issues, they do. Many other issues that I think probably came from not having enough salt. So they packed those strange uh narcotics into their noses because of the lack of salt. Okay, so if you eliminated four extremely low salt societies, if you only had kind of normal people, there was no correlation. All right.
+
+[1:01:37] Well, they're gonna make us leave soon. Uh br Brandon Cummins had a question on ice, which I'll address on the blog in a post coming up soon. So, Brandon, sorry to keep you waiting. But I have one question that came in from I believe Ben at Littlewing, and he wants to hear Jeffrey Steingarden's opinion on what makes the perfect French fry. So what are we gonna do is I'm gonna sign off now, and then I'm gonna have Jeffrey just talk about the perfect French fry until they cut us off.
+
+[1:02:02] This is cooking issues with Jeffrey Steingarten and Nastasha Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday to this this week, an hour uh from uh 12 to 1. And Jeffrey, the perfect French fry, if you would. Thank you very much, David. Very enjoyable. Oh, thank you.
+
+[1:02:16] Very enjoyable. Well, uh, except we're not on the air anymore. No, we're on the air. I'm gonna they're gonna let you talk about French fries for a minute, and then at certain points, like the Oscars, the musical coming on. I'm sorry.
+
+[1:02:30] Yeah. Well, I think the characteristics of of of the perfect French fry have been um, I think laid out, although it is it didn't take brain surgery to uh by Dave on his pre on the blog. Thank you. Um crisp but very friable outside, not too thick. Um almost like mashed potatoes inside.
+
+[1:03:04] Then there's another kind of perfect French fry, which is hollow Inside. You don't like that. No, no. But but it can be also delicious because it is like a a long, a long, rectangular, baton-shaped uh potato ship. And as we know, potato chips are as good as French fries.
+
+[1:03:22] They're delicious, they are. Oh, uh, I must also say he wanted to know about uh horse fat because he hasn't tasted. He wants to know your opinion on horse fat and fries. Oh, there's no doubt to me that horse fat gives you the best fries. Um after I wrote my article, I was kind of sad about this because I had a hard, hard time getting horse fat, and then someone I knew in in uh in uh Paris, actually it was um it was Alex uh Alex Garanas Shelley, who's now a chef, who was working as a research assistant for Patricia Wells, and she found in a supermarket these sticks of horse fat that were packaged like butter.
+
+[1:04:08] In where? Paris, France. We should go, we should go. Um I wonder whether they'll still do still doing that. I wonder whether it's constitutional that Congress has passed laws against the eating uh of horses in America.
+
+[1:04:23] Well, the French have always been great horse eaters. I've I've just been reminded by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez that I've forgotten to mention our sponsor. Today's excellent show was brought to you by the good folks at TechServe. TechService New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider serving individual customers, creative professionals, and Fortune 100 companies. TechService built a solid reputation on expertise in technology sales and service as a company that believes in honest and forthright business practices, tech service, proud to sponsor Heritage Radio Network and the promotion of sustainable lifestyles, but they're for Mac only people.
+
+[1:04:50] Cooking issues, and thank you to Jeffrey Steingarten. Ficious, vicious but crap. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:16] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, where you call in with all your cooking related questions here in the studio today with Nastasha Lopez, Cooking Issues Hammer. Call in all of your cooking questions to 718-497-2120, 718-497-2120. We're here every Tuesday from noon to noon forty-five. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:44] Oh, sorry. 718, scratch that. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I'm not gonna put any blame here, but Nastasha told me to write down as 2120.
+
+[0:56] So, you know, it's the first time we've ever given the wrong number on the air, so we apologize. Uh yeah, alright, alright. So, while we're waiting for you to call in, uh, I will answer a few questions people have sent in. Uh hello, Nastasha and Dave, my name is Lucy. I'm about to start college at Northeastern in Boston.
+
+[1:13] Congratulations. Uh well, I'm very excited to get my life started in the pseudo-real world uh of college. Uh I'm sad to be losing access to a kitchen. Unfortunately, they won't let Lucy have anything in her dorm room like uh hot plates or uh what else do they say she can't have? Basically anything with it with an open burner, no toaster ovens, and no hot plates.
+
+[1:31] So what what is she what is she gonna do? Because right now she has just an immersion blender and a food processor, but she really wants to be able to cook. All right, listen. First of all, here's the bad news. Uh whoever your RA is, whatever they call those things nowadays, uh, they're probably gonna be too stupid to realize that something like an induction burner is not uh like a fire hazard, and so they probably won't let you have an induction unit, even though they are freaking awesome and they're completely safe, and you should be able to have them in college.
+
+[1:57] So before you buy one, make an argument with your with your uh person that you should be able to have an induction unit because they don't actually produce heat unless a pan is on them. Uh and even then they're not they're not a fire hazard the way that other things are. Uh okay, now it assume I'm gonna make a couple assumptions about you. One, you're not, you know, overly wealthy because you're a college student. Uh two, you don't really care about rules all that much, right?
+
+[2:20] So one way to get around it is uh if your RA is not the smartest person in the world or they just don't care, they make things that are microwave toaster oven combinations that look for all the world just like a microwave that have an infrared heater in the top of it. So it just looks like a microwave and yet acts like a uh acts like a toaster oven. Um so that's one way because you know, I'm not so much about rules. Uh another thing you can do, they used to make in the 50s, and I actually this is what I did in college. Uh I bought uh I went to a thrift shop and I bought a Westinghouse turkey oven.
+
+[2:51] And these are things that they used to make in the 1950s, and they look like overgrown crock pots. Uh, crock pot's another thing you can have, by the way. Uh they look like overgrown crock pots, and uh they were meant to cook a turkey in in Thanksgiving time so that your oven would be free for whatever else you were doing, and you could cook a turkey in this countertop uh oven. I had one of those and I used it to uh bake bread. In fact, I wooed my current wife.
+
+[3:12] Uh one of the things I did was I used to break uh bake bread for her in my dorm room in this Westinghouse oven. And they're pretty they're pretty safe looking. No one's even gonna know what the hell it is. And I think I spent, I don't know, two dollars on mine in the thrift shop. You know, maybe you could look on eBay, something like that.
+
+[3:26] So that's an option for you. Here's some more options. If you're willing to get a little more involved, now's a perfect time to get started with uh low temperature and sous-vide cooking, right? Now, I'm assuming you don't have eight hundred dollars to go spend on a new immersion circulator. And an immersion circulator, for those of you that are listening, is basically a piece of equipment that allows you to heat water or any liquid really to a very accurate temperature and to achieve really kind of stunning results in a very small amount of space uh and have it be repeatable every single time.
+
+[3:53] And you don't need a big vacuum machine to run this. All you need to do is be able to put your food into Ziploc bags. Now, I almost I never recommend making your own or or buying one used on eBay, even though that's what I used to do because it's actually very nice to have uh the brand new one, and you know, I deal with restaurants and they shouldn't really have crab together things, and I want Philip Preston from Polyscience, my friend, to get as much business as is humanly possible on his brand new circulator, which is now available in William Sonoma for I think seven or eight hundred dollars, something like that. However, it is very easy to build your own immersion circulator, they're not quite as nice. But you can look on the on the web.
+
+[4:30] I've done it myself back in the day for as little as fifty dollars if you're really a good eBay searcher. But even if you buy all the stuff new, you can get everything, everything uh for about for under $150, $150, $200. Uh, a good place to look for cheap temperature controllers is auber instruments, uh A-U-B-E-R uh dot com. You can also uh then you know you can use things like immersion uh coffee heaters, like those little things you're supposed to put in coffee mugs. You get like three or four or five of those because you need a thousand watts of heating basically, and an aquarium pump, and then once you have the temperature control with a with a therm, you know, with a thermocouple in it, uh, a bunch of heaters and a pump, you're done.
+
+[5:06] I mean, it's kind of you know crab together. I will warn you about this as well. I shocked the hell out of myself the first couple times I built this because those heaters leak a little bit of electricity. But if you're willing to spend a little bit of time, I I could build one probably from parts in under an hour, but you know, if you've never done it before, give yourself like four hours. But uh, you know, it's fairly easy to do.
+
+[5:23] There's a bunch of um websites devoted to this. In fact, in our forums, there's a section on in cooking Issues forums. There's a section where people have posted some of their do-it-yourself uh circulators. Uh, and uh, you know, that's a good way to go in a dorm because it doesn't, you know, there's no open flame, and you could put out serious restaurant quality food out of your dorm with that. Now, here's the problem.
+
+[5:42] In order to do really good low temperature work, you need to be able to put a really good sear on something when it's done, right? Now, here's where I'm about to recommend something that you're not supposed to do. See, they think your microwave is safe because they've never seen someone really use a microwave. Now, I'm not just talking getting a case of light bulbs out of the closet and blowing them up every Saturday night, which is what I used to do. You can use a microwave to get up to 800 degrees Celsius.
+
+[6:05] Well, wait, I forget what that is. It's like 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, something absurd. Uh, here's what you do. You go to the hardware store, get yourself some silicon carbide, silicon carbide sharpening stones, right? You put insulating fire bricks around and put them in your microwave, turn it on, walk away.
+
+[6:19] In about 10 minutes, those uh silicone carbide uh blocks are gonna be glowing red, red hot, okay? Because they're what's called a micro uh they accept microwaves, they absorb microwaves, silicon carbide does. Now, you have like an amazing hot rock searing plate where you can sear the bejesus out of anything. You can melt metal, you can use your microwave to smelt metal. You can do some serious things.
+
+[6:42] Look up uh metal smelter microwave. There's an article on it in popular science in 2003. You can melt metal in your microwave, you can certainly sear a piece of meat in it. So just get a couple of silicon carbide uh uh sharpening stones, insulate them somehow with fire brick or with uh you know corning ware on top of like little things, and then turn it up till it glows red hot and sear away to your heart's content. Do not light your dorm on fire.
+
+[7:04] It's her first year at college. Well, um I mean, if it was anything like my first year of college, this will be the safest thing she's done. Anyway, I'm not saying to go do that, I'm just saying these are options. These are options. All right, Nastasha, they're options.
+
+[7:17] We have a call. All right. Uh hope that helps Lucy. Uh uh hi caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, good to talk to you.
+
+[7:24] This is uh Derek calling from Seattle. Hey, Derek. Uh I'm looking for some tips on doing sous vide pot rows. So um I like things that are done at a little bit lower temperature. My wife likes things that are done at a little bit higher temperature.
+
+[7:38] So I'm trying to find the sweet spot where uh I get something that's kind of has the texture of a traditional braise, which is what my wife likes. It's something that's not quite so dried out. Okay. Here here are you using a vacuum machine or are you using Ziplocks or what are you using? I'm using uh a vacuum machine and then a uh uh used lab circulating bath.
+
+[7:59] Oh, yeah. Which one by the way? Which which company? It's uh Fisher Scientific. Okay, so that's probably it's most likely it's uh it's an old poly science because they used to build uh Fisher's as well as I think VWRs.
+
+[8:10] I think. Anyway. So here's what I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh the thing to be careful of, obviously, with used circulators is that a lot of times the bearings and things go bad.
+
+[8:17] Uh here's what here's what I would recommend. Uh there's no way to get a completely tradition. First of all, over reduce your sauce before you put it in the bag. That's the first it's the first thing you always need to do. Over reduce it well beyond what you think a normal uh a normal uh braise should be, because the meat when it cooks in the bag is going to release juices and and seriously water down your juice.
+
+[8:35] That's the that's the first step. Okay. Uh and it's a classic mistake people make. Uh the other one is that you know, although you can go as low as fifty-seven degrees or even lower when you're doing this, right? Most people prefer uh more of a traditional temperature.
+
+[8:48] I find a happy medium is somewhere between sixty and sixty-two Celsius, okay. Once you get up, although some people cook as high as seventy, what I think once you get above sixty-five or so, you're losing a lot of the benefits of uh of low temperature cooking, but then in that 60 to 62, 63 zone is a nice happy medium. It's just barely still pink, it's still got a lot of moistness to it, and you're gonna have uh I think you're gonna have a good result. But some people go as high as 70 even in in the bag, and you can try that too. It's still gonna retain more moisture than it would uh cooking in a traditional in a brave situation, but just make sure to over reduce your sauce, and I think a happy medium is gonna be somewhere between 60 and 62.
+
+[9:25] I would also uh really burn the hell out of it, not burn, but you know what I mean, really roast the hell out of some scrap meat and throw it in the bag, and it's gonna give some of those higher temperature flavors that your wife uh is craving, but still retain some of the texture that that you want. Does that help? Uh yeah, I I will say I've I've done it in the uh in the rain. I think I did it at about 65 for for 24 hours. I think one one issue that I have is it didn't quite soften up enough for her, and and and I'm typically using grass-fed beef, so I'm wondering uh what sort of difference that makes.
+
+[9:52] So at 62, you're gonna want to go for two days, about a little under two at 60, you're gonna want to go for two days. So I think you maybe you should also try going a little bit longer. So, like a good number for for like a short rib, you know, it's slightly different, but a good number for a short rib would be 60 degrees Celsius for 48 to 50 50 hours, somewhere in that range. And so 62 to 63, you're gonna want to go uh around the same amount of time. I wouldn't go as high as 65 because that's right where you're gonna squeeze a bunch of water out, so you might as well go a little higher if you're gonna go 65.
+
+[10:20] It's stay in the 62, 63, 60 to 63 range in there for about two days. Okay, sounds great. All right, give it a shot. All right, thank a lot. Thank you.
+
+[10:29] We have another caller? Yeah, I think we do. Hello, you're on the air. Hi, yeah. My name is Dennis.
+
+[10:34] And uh I'm a big fan of you guys. Um do you mind if I ask like a career question, sort of a cooking focused question? Sure. Okay. Um uh I am of you, I gotta say, all kind of jealous of what you do.
+
+[10:43] Um, you know just thinking about food all the time and experimenting, being on sort of the that intellectual side, you know, things. Uh I'm a cook right now. I cook at a very um well regarded restaurant in DC. But I'm really a lot more interested in more of a research or teaching role, something in more academic settings potentially eventually. Right.
+
+[11:12] And uh I was wondering if you have any advice or how you got to where you are, what skills you did have or what you did may have helped you get to what you're doing right now. That's an excellent question. So uh uh I knew that uh I didn't really want to be a restaurant chef because uh it just it just wasn't in me. It's it's not in me to to go and and pound out uh you know uh a service every day. Also I'm not organized enough to be a real restaurant chef, which I think you really really need to be.
+
+[11:40] The one skill that uh I did have that's really helpful, or still have, I hope, is that uh I can read anything almost and understand what's going on. So from a research standpoint, you want to be able to first of all you you want to be very curious, you want to be able to absorb things, and you want to be able to focus on problems very very closely. That's like that's the first thing to do pre mean to do precisely what I do, right? Now to be involved in just the food world in general, I think um you you know, if you're not gonna be a cook, then you know then and you still want to be in in the in the field. I mean, writing if you can write is a very good is a good way to do it.
+
+[12:16] I mean I know a lot of people that that have done that. Uh you know, for instance, my sister in law, uh you know, Wiley Dufrein's wife, my sister-in-law, which is actually my wife's sister. She, she you know, went to French culinary where I teach, and she's now the you know, editor in chief of the Food network magazine. So I mean there's lots of there's lots of different pathways, um, whether it be in writing or or in media. Now on the research side, you know, there's a couple of things you can do there.
+
+[12:38] I know some people that do uh you know consultancy work or they have uh you know specific high-tech catering kind of catering opportunities where they don't necessarily want to, but they want to spend more time researching because in a catering thing you can you know focus on one job and you don't have a daily pound out of a service and you can get more time to focus. The main problem with the kind of cooking that I that I do at the French culinary is that it's very hard to do when you have a daily service to grind out because you just don't have the time to focus on uh on solving problems. That like you know, and you're not necessarily going to be able, if you take a job at a big comp company doing uh kind of cooking in that way, you're not necessarily going to be able to focus on problems that interest you. But there are places that have jobs like that, like Cuisine Solutions who does a lot of uh low temperature work. They hired someone who uh that I know you know who went to the French culinary, and he gets to do a lot of research, a lot of interesting work.
+
+[13:26] So there are opportunities out there, but I think to do you know, just to do this kind of work, you just you know you you need to be able to you know it's like what Wiley does too. Wiley reads all patent, you know, patents constantly he's constantly reading. So I think you know, if you're very curious and you always want to learn, it helps if you can write, but it's not you know not necessarily you know a prerequisite. But um, you know I'm sorry I couldn't give any more specific advice, but uh that's um that's kind of what I did. I don't know if you know that's great.
+
+[13:53] Really? All right, well well uh thanks for call thanks for calling. And you can you know, always post anything to our to our forums or to the the blog and you know we'll try and help you out. I like anyone to get in this field that that can. Surely well.
+
+[14:04] Thank you. Thank you. We have anyone else? Yeah, hello, you're on the air. Hi, this is Dan from New York.
+
+[14:11] Hey, Dan. Hey, so I just have a I guess a question. I'm cooking this chicken. I got a heritage chicken for the first time. And it smells a little, I guess, sulfuric because it has, I guess, blood in the bag.
+
+[14:14] Huh. And I was wondering, what should I do in terms of will that affect the taste or how should I cook that? Or should I even cook it? Well, it smell well, it smells like like sulfur or like like a like a like a like rotting. Smell like it's rotting?
+
+[14:33] Just like when I would when I asked before, they said it was something about how it's packaged with the blood and it's just a little strong. So it is kind of old, um, because I'd gotten it through this roundabout way. Yeah. So I was just wondering, do you think that's safe to eat? And if so, should I worry about the flavor at all?
+
+[14:50] Was the bag did the b was the bag inflated at all? Was it still tight? No, it I mean the bird looks beautiful itself. Yeah. It's just And the bag was still tight.
+
+[14:57] Yeah, still tight, still everything. Looks nice. It was a cryo bag, right? Correct. Okay.
+
+[15:02] Does it it doesn't smell blue cheesy at all, right? No, it's it's just like it has a strong arm. It might not even be sulfur, it just smells like something, and I was kind of curious if that would be in the taste. Alright, well, if you've smelled uh rotten chicken before, then you know, and it smells like that, then I would avoid. Um you could try just giving it a c like a quick dip rinse in in um in uh you know in uh in water or vinegar vinegar a little bit to try and see what happens to it, pull it out, see how see how it smells.
+
+[15:30] Uh I have been in your situation before where you really want to cook something, you really want it to work and you really want it to be delicious because you've been thinking about it, right? So uh um and then like you've handed over to your wife and they smell it and they're like, Are you freaking cracked? Are you gonna serve that to me? Do you know what I mean? So that's another that's another good thing to do.
+
+[15:48] Like if you feel nervous about it, I wouldn't I wouldn't bother with it. Or if you really want to, I would test it on yourself. I would cook it for yourself. I've done that before too. Test it on yourself and just eat it yourself and see what you think rather than subjecting your your friends and and family to it.
+
+[16:02] I'm sorry that I can't give anything kind of more specific because I can't smell it, but you know, as a general rule of thumb, never serve to someone else anything that even makes you a little bit nervous. I mean, that's kind of a rule that I like to live by because I do serve bizarre things uh quite often, and I want people to trust me. So, you know, uh, as far as I know, I haven't gotten anyone horribly sick. I'd like to kind of maintain that record. I think it's kind of a good call.
+
+[16:26] But, you know, if you feel comfortable with it, by all means cook it yourself and see uh, you know, eat it yourself and see see what you think. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. All right, thank you. All right, thank you.
+
+[16:36] Have a good one. You too. It always makes me nervous, uh, Nastasha, to uh to cook something if you think it might be bad, right? Bear. The bear was not bad.
+
+[16:46] We're talking about the bear we cooked in the thing. She Nastasha is nervous that the bear had trichinosis, which is indeed possible. Trichinosis is a worm that infects muscles. It's it's an awful disease. It's measured in uh number of worms per square uh per cubic centimeter muscle mass.
+
+[16:59] It's a terrible disease to get. Uh however, you kill it by cooking it, which is what I did, Nastasha. You should have eaten that bear. Nastasha apparently not taking Jeffrey Steingard's advice last week. Some of the best advice you'll ever hear on on uh on learning to become a good eater.
+
+[17:13] Jeffrey Steingarden, one of the best best eaters that I've ever met. Uh, but eat everything. You know, so so long as it's safe. He would eat something that's unsafe, because that's Jeffrey. But you know, as long as it's safe, uh, you should try it.
+
+[17:25] Uh anyway. So uh I think we're coming up on our first yeah, first commercial break here. Uh we're coming back at you in a couple of minutes. Cooking issues. Oh!
+
+[17:35] How do you feel, brother? Feeling good? You feel good? So much bone brother. How do you feel, mate?
+
+[17:42] I'm feeling called your name. I don't want all people to know you in here. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down. Look at him.
+
+[17:54] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We've gotta take your high.
+
+[18:20] Alright. Yeah, let's go on there. We've gotta take the high-human. Now I won't have a body. Let bread blow about two courses.
+
+[18:50] And then I'm gonna wave in. Let's go and do it with dinner. Now alright. I'm gonna get that bellow with a little horn over there. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[18:59] I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And while we're waiting, let us take a question. So uh from an email question.
+
+[19:13] So Bob Good writes in and he says, I like your write-up of herb grinders on the website, but how do they fit in? How do they compare to a mortar and pestle at home? And keeping wife is uh wife's motto is clutter is the enemy. Sounds like our wives would be good friends. Uh so for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, uh herb grinder is the euphemism for a marijuana grinder that uh pot you know, pot users, potheads, as I lovingly call them, uh use to uh kind of grind up their marijuana before they roll it into a cigarette or stuff in a pipe, whatever they're gonna do with it.
+
+[19:40] Uh they're a fantastic way to grind up small quantities of spices when you don't want to, you know, coffee grinders they don't really work for small quantities because the blades don't hit your spices. They're fantastic. And you can look on our website at ground, I don't know what I do, like 10 different spices, 15 different 10, something like that. So you can see kind of what results you get on different spices. Now, the the question Bob has is listen, I already have a mortar and pestle at home, so why do I need this?
+
+[20:03] You're probably, you know, Bob, you're probably right. Uh if your mortar and pestle is small enough to be handy, they work uh pretty well unless you have a big problem with your mortar and pestle with spices bouncing out of it. I don't know that you need to have this as well. This is m you know mostly uh uh useful for someone like me who's at a cooking school and you don't want to lug over lug around your mortar and pestle or if you're gonna be cooking off site. They're incredibly tiny.
+
+[20:24] So you can stick it kind of in your uh you know, right next to your peeler in your utensil drawer. So it's useful having around. At home, I use my mortar and pestle, but when I'm at school, I use the herb grinders. So I hope that was that was helpful. I think that uh answered that that question.
+
+[20:39] Uh Ray Mac 007 asks, he was thinking about cooling um sauces and then vacuum, putting them in vacuum bags and storing them into in his freezer until needed. Are there any downsides to storing sauces this way? Um not r not really. I mean, uh it's a really good way to store something because uh when you once you put it in a vacuum bag, you're not gonna have any uh water loss or kind of freezer burn problems as long as the vacuum bags that you're using are um you know are are oxygen impermeable. They're meant for for freezer storage.
+
+[21:08] You want to get ones that are meant for uh cooking and chilling, and then the great thing about uh bat vagging bac that's sorry, vagging down sauces, is that you can then throw those bags directly into uh hot water and reheat them in the bag without the possibility of scorching them or or you know having any sort of problems. In fact, you can reheat several different kinds of sauces at the same time in the same water uh if you have them all in bags. So it really is a very good uh way to do it uh if you're doing large quantities, and and that you know that they'll really last a long time that way. And he says he's assuming that uh emulsion-based sauces would not be a candidate for this process. I would guess that's probably right.
+
+[21:46] You can freeze emulsion-based sauces is if you stabilize them with different stabilizers, but I've never really experimented that because I haven't tried to get extended storage out of sauces in in bags that way. I mean, it's not kind of my focus is always on uh kind of achieving new new quality benchmarks instead of trying to necessarily um extend the shelf life. But if I was doing it for my house or for uh a restaurant where that was useful, I'm sure I would have researched how to make an emulsion uh kind of not breaking the bag. There are people that have done that kind of work, so it's definitely definitely possible. So I would go ahead and do that.
+
+[22:20] It's also a great way to store uh fruit pureees. They the sauces all of a sudden they store flat in bags, they're frozen, they're really easy to reheat. So I think that's a really good that's a really good technique. Um now, before I answer uh the next question I have, I just want to uh say that last week New York magazine really shoved it to me. They really gave me the shaft because they wrote up my favorite tomato that I wait every freaking year.
+
+[22:47] I wait for this tomato. Uh it's the Aunt Ruby's German Green Tomato from Stokes Farm. They're at the Union Square Green Market. Um they're on Saturdays, and I think also Wednesdays, the other day they're there. And their Aunt Ruby's German Green is the greatest tomato I have ever had.
+
+[22:59] It's my f favorite tomato. And New York magazine wrote their particular one up as the greatest tomato in New York. And consequently, now they're completely wiped out. Like I got there at noon and they said they'd been sold out since 10 a.m. Because everyone from New York magazine apparently who reads the magazine went and bought all of this, all of uh Stokes Farm's tomatoes.
+
+[23:23] So I was pretty bent, pretty bent about that. Um luckily for me, their second favorite tomato of the uh you know in the New York magazine was the German stripe, which by the way, Aunt Ruby was a real human being uh and uh Aunt Ruby Arnold, no relation to me. And uh, you know, she not only came up with the uh with the with the Aunt Ruby's German Green, I believe she was also the source or one of the sources for the German stripe, which is a huge red uh um yellow and uh red beautiful tomato. Uh and the um Stokes also has that. It's my second favorite of their tomatoes.
+
+[23:57] I'm growing that one too. Yeah, but apparently your landlord made you throw them away. Anyway, so oh yeah, anyway. So, but Stokes's uh Stokes is is excellent, but they didn't write up Stokes' as being the uh second best. So they cleaned out some other farmer's German stripe and cleaned out his ruby.
+
+[24:11] So I spent this weekend eating stripes, which are which are also excellent, but it brings me to my pet peeve, which is first of all, you can't just call out a tomato variety and say it's great, right? You you know, because I've had Aunt Ruby's German Green, which is a large green, kind of like weird shaped tomato, and the bottom gets a pinkish red blush when when when it's ripening up. Because you know, you look at the bottom of a tomato, not the part attached to the plant, to see kind of that's it ripens from there first and travels up towards the uh where it attaches to the plant, and it also softens at the bottom first and gets and goes harder as it goes up to the top. So when you're judging the ripeness of a tomato, you want to look at the bottom first, right? See how she's going.
+
+[24:44] And you have to know what an ant ruby looks like. I think it should start getting that pink uh flush at the bottom, and I think it should be getting a little soft, although the guys at Stokes uh disagree with me on this because they don't want you mangling their tomatoes by picking them up and squeezing them. That is a rotten thing to do to their tomatoes. Don't do that. Um, uh here's here's a I don't know how I got on that, but here's here here's the thing.
+
+[25:07] Uh their ant rubies are sublime, and other people's ant rubies are crap, right? Different tomato varieties taste very different depending on where they're grown, how they're grown, you know, the the location, the type of soil and everything. It's not enough to just say, I like ant rubies. You have to say, I like although they are by and large an excellent variety. You have to say, I like this farmer's ant rubies, I like that farmer's ant rubies.
+
+[25:29] So, you know, you can't just go and buy a variety, you really have to find a supplier, a farmer that you like and get their tomatoes of that particular variety. I mean, that's the thing I think also people then they they just put out big farm stands, so hey, these are all heirloom tomatoes. I'm like, that's great. 80% of these taste like like nothing, they're garbage. Like a lot of heirloom tomatoes, I I apologize.
+
+[25:49] A lot of heirloom tomatoes don't taste that great, or they don't have that great great a texture. And so you'll go to these farmers' stands and they'll have heirloom tomatoes. And this happened to me before because I feel when I see something I've never had before, I'm compelled to try it. Like I'm compelled to try it. That's just kind of how I am.
+
+[26:04] And uh, there's a farmer's market right by my house in the lower east side on Sundays, and as I saw a tomato, I was like, oh, uh, this looks interesting because it had a shape of an ant ruby, but it was red with like very thin yellow yellow stripes through it. And I was like, uh, what varieties is? He goes, I don't know, it's an heirloom tomato. I'm like, you're you're uh I can't curse on the radio. I'm trying to think of something to say, you know, to insult the man because you know, thank you.
+
+[26:28] Now I can't ever replicate this experience. Thank you. You know what I mean? Heirloom tomato. That's like saying it it's a vehicle with four wheels.
+
+[26:35] Well, is it a Mac truck? Is it is it a Hyundai? You know, am I getting a Lincoln Continental or am I getting a gremlin? You know what I mean? I don't know.
+
+[26:42] You know what I mean? Please, you know, to tell like tell the if you're not actually the farmer at the market, at least tell the people the varieties that you're selling so that we can figure out what the hell's going on as as eaters. Anyway, that tomato, now I was even angrier because I bought it and it went home. I was hoping it would suck, and then I wouldn't have to worry about trying to find it again. Only it was delicious.
+
+[27:04] You know what I mean? And and even tomatoes that some tomatoes look fairly similar, but they're different. Like there's this tomato called the Everlast, which looks like an ant Ruby if you're not experienced with it, but it isn't. It's a little more yellow than a Ruby. Anyway, so that's my stupid spiel on heirloom tomatoes.
+
+[27:19] Have you tasted your uh stripes yet, Stasi? I only had one. And how was it? It was good, but it was really tiny. Why the hell did you what why did you pick it when it wasn't ready yet?
+
+[27:27] I think the container I'm growing it in is really small, so it only allows for tiny tomatoes. Yeah. Tiny tomatoes. That's my that's my next band name right there, tiny tomatoes. All right, let me take an email question.
+
+[27:38] Uh Ryan, Ryan Santos uh wants to know about uh the book called The Handbook of Hydrocolloids. He says he's interested in hydrocolloids and and modern cooking, and most of his uh recipes he's done are just adapting other people's recipes for using hydrocolloids. And for those of you that don't know what what what I'm talking about, hydrocolloids are a group of um basically complex sugars, polysaccharides, new you know, gums, whatever you want to call them, that are used to thicken and gel, uh used to thicken and gel uh you know different products. So Xanthan gum, carrageenin, these sorts of things. And uh most people do just adapt other cook's recipes, and that's fine.
+
+[28:15] But if you want to learn more, where do you go? He he was mentioning a book called the Handbook of Hydrocolloids. That's like a $200 book. It's very technical. I read it, it's it was very useful to me.
+
+[28:25] Um, but I wouldn't be the first book on hydrocolloids I would get. The first book I will get on hydrocolloids is put out by the Egan Press. I think it's I forget how to spell it, it's like an E-A-G-A-N press, uh, which is a portion of the uh the Association of American Sereal Chemists or something like that. It's a very thin book, it's only sixty, sixty something dollars. You can get it at Kitchen Arts and Letters, uh, the world's greatest cookbook store, at least the world's greatest that I've been to.
+
+[28:51] It's here in New York City up in the 90s on Lexington Avenue. And it's a great introduction to hydrocolloids. It's extremely useful. It has a bunch of tables and charts in it that talk about uh, you know, the problems when you try and mix different hydrocolloids together. It has flow charts of trying to figure out you know how to choose what hydrocolloid to use for different systems.
+
+[29:09] Extremely readable, extremely useful. In fact, there's a that whole Egan Press put out a bunch of books. They have one on starches, which is excellent. They have one on sugars, which is excellent. Um their emulsifier one I didn't think was so useful for cooks, but I would definitely start there.
+
+[29:23] If you're hungering for more technical information after that book, you know, then by all means go to the the handbook of hydrocolloids. But the handbook of hydrocolloids is set up as a as a an ingredient by ingredient um book. It's like 300 and something pages, and it's like, you know, here's Agar, here's the chemical formula, you know, for agar, and then you know, here are its various properties. So uh, you know, I it I think it's useful to a small number of cooks, but not as useful as it could be, and not necessarily $200 worth of useful if you can go get the uh Egan Press book instead. Uh they used to run a deal on the on the uh serial chemist website.
+
+[30:03] You have to really search around for it where you could buy a one year subscription to all of the Egan Press books for 99 bucks and then you could download all of them on on PDF for just 99 dollars. And that's in fact what I did. So I have them all on on PDF like the uh you know fats which is another good one actually and I even have the ones that uh are useless to me like food colorings, useless. Uh non-nutritive sweeteners, aka all the things to make diet soda and whatnot, also fairly useless for me. But you know me, once I once I have access to it, I'm gonna download it because that's just the way I am.
+
+[30:35] I I'm a sucker for a sunk cost. You know that's why I don't go to all you can eat uh all you can eat restaurants anymore because you have to roll me out of those things in a wheelbarrow. First of all, I you know like obviously I'm not gonna eat don't be a chump and go eat the salad bar. You know, like hit the most expensive literally I don't care whether I like it or not. I walk into an all you can eat restaurant, I zero in on whatever has the highest food cost for that restaurant instantly.
+
+[30:58] Instantly and then I fill an entire plate with whatever that is whatever it is. I pound a couple plates of that then once I'm sick of eating the most expensive thing they have I find the second most expensive thing they have and I continue to eat that until I'm sick of that item. Two or three items down the line I'll start feeling physically sick but it's not until my wife pulls me away because she's disgusted to stand next to me. That is when I stop and leave an all you can eat restaurant. I have similar problems with open bars.
+
+[31:24] So I try to avoid these kinds of things now because you know as you as you get older it's it's more and more unseemly to be to be doing this sort of thing. I don't know how the hell I got in. Oh, yes, it's because I downloaded even the useless books. This is what it's like to be me, by the way. That's what it that's what it that's what it boils down to.
+
+[31:42] Uh I hope that I hope that uh answered answered your your question. And uh I think we want to go to one more commercial break. Alright, let's go to one more commercial break. Cooking issues, call in your questions to 718. Uh what is it, Nastasha?
+
+[31:56] 718. Oh my god, I can't believe this. 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. When I left a home this morning, I promise I would think to stay real straight and sober.
+
+[32:42] I swore I wouldn't drink bed whisking. Before the night was over. I started in to say bedsky. Coming back at you with cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues.
+
+[33:35] Call in your questions. You have another like 10-15 minutes to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And today's cooking issues is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free-range, all-natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef.
+
+[33:56] Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the Central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. And for more information, they would like you to go to www.herstranch.com. That's one word, www.hearstranch.com. And while I, although, you know, I've never had the beef from Hurst Hearst Ranch, you know, if they want to send me some, I would love to try it.
+
+[34:24] You um I I want to uh say that last week apparently I did not give our sponsor TechServe enough of a of a run because I forgot about mentioning it until the very end of the show and basically blasted through it at the speed of sound as fast as I could speak, which when I want to is quite quickly. And uh I used to do that in debate in high school, speak very quickly. It's a technique called spreading for all those who didn't go to debate in high school. Anyway, so I apologize to TechServe. A fine a fine service for fixing your computer.
+
+[34:53] TechServe. Alright. Nastashi, feel better now? Yeah, that's better. Yeah.
+
+[34:57] Uh oh, and by the way, uh, Mr. Santos, his second part of his question was how do you get, I swear to God, how do you how do I get a date with the hammer? And I I have to say, you don't bot don't bother trying with that one. Don't, you know, she's uh, you know, I just I would I would stay away from that one, right, Sazi? Right?
+
+[35:16] Yes. I'm just kidding, Nastasha. Just kidding. All right. Brandon asks using larger ice with reduced surface area will reduce the rate at which ice dilutes a cocktail, but how does that affect how long it holds temperature in a finished drink?
+
+[35:30] Well, using larger ice, hold temperature in a drink longer with less dilution and smaller ice. Okay. Uh he's not very concerned about shaking or stirring, but he's more mostly worried about um the final drink. Um, and how does that differ from something that has been chilled uh basically as opposed to something that's coming from from room temp, for instance, pouring a spear on the rocks. All right, here's the here is the answer to this question, as far as I can tell.
+
+[35:54] That particular experiment I haven't run in probably a year and a half. But my memory of it is this. Uh a larger uh ice cube will in fact dilute less in your uh in the cocktail, but it will not keep it as cold. Now, what are we talking about? If you put a lot of small ice in, to stir a drink, you put small ice in, that drink will probably hover around the like one, you know, one or two it's gonna start out at like min anywhere between minus four and minus uh a half a degree Celsius, depending on how they stir it.
+
+[36:26] Okay, that's gonna be the the range. Uh a shaken drink is going to be in the range of minus seven to minus three degrees Celsius if it's done properly. Okay. When you pour that drink into smaller cubes, it's gonna maintain its temperature better, but it will get more diluted because of the extra surface area, especially if they throw it, pour it onto ice that you didn't shake off, that you didn't get the water. You'll get an initial hit of dilution out of that that's gonna dilute it right out of the gate.
+
+[36:53] Um in that case, I actually recommend using that. Don't yell at me, cocktail people, please. I don't want to hear it. But I mean it's not of course I want to hear it. Let's have an argument.
+
+[37:02] I'm just kidding. But the um but if I was going to shake a drink and then serve it kind of on on the rocks, I frankly think you'd be better off serving it with the things you shook with, especially if the ice was slightly larger as they still looked good because you've already gotten the surface water off of those things. Do you know what I mean? You're not adding extra surface water. But you know, I'm sure there's people that'll disagree with me.
+
+[37:22] Uh, and I'd be happy to have that discussion because I'm just thinking about this off the top of my head. A larger ice cube uh will, you know, so if you're using small ice cubes, let's assume you're going to maintain a temperature within a degree or two of zero for a while. You know, the experience I had with a big ice cube is that the temperature is going to go up to about you know somewhere in the range of five degrees Celsius, somewhere like that. So it's not going to keep it anywhere near as cold. So long as it's cold enough, right, then I think it's going to be it's gonna be um okay.
+
+[37:52] Um it's just not gonna maintain um the temperature nearly as well. If it maintains it enough for you, then I think that that's okay because remember, there's a it's it's very strict. There is no melting without chilling, and there is no uh chilling without melting. So there's no way with an ice cube to keep a drink uh well, unless you use freezer ice, but you know, stay tuned. I promised last week I was gonna post on the blog, but I spent like you know, ten hours working on the charts for the blog post, so it's gonna go up soon, I promise on stirring and ice.
+
+[38:25] But um that you don't get to win, so you either get a drink that's more diluted because you had to melt more ice, or you get uh a drink that's not as cold because it's not as diluted. It's basically a one-to-one. In fact, I'll I'll spoil it a little bit. I gave uh I did a a test, right? So when you're stirring a cocktail, you uh when you're stirring a cocktail, it actually takes a long time for the cocktail to get to basically an equilibrium point where you're not really chilling that much more and you're not melting that much more.
+
+[38:53] It's a relative equilibrium because you're always, you know, you're you're losing energy to the to the atmosphere, so it's not a you know real equilibrium. But you can definitely, when you look at a chart of temperature versus time as you're stirring, it basically drops very quickly at first the temperature, and also is diluting a lot at first, and then it basically plateaus out, and you get only very small changes from from there on out. But uh, and when you when you're shaking a drink, that that curve plateaus very quickly, like in the in 12 to 15 seconds in there. You you're basically hitting the plateau. In uh in a stirred drink, it's quite a bit longer, like on the order of uh one or two minutes of of stirring is where you hit the real plateau.
+
+[39:28] Um so uh I did a test where instead of um pulling basically stirring for two minutes until it was done, I put thermocouples in and I stirred with small ice until I hit exactly uh a certain temperature. I forget what it was, I had to go look up, but I think it was like minus uh minus 0.6 Celsius, something like that, right? And I I poured the drink out. Then I took small ice and stirred it until it reached exactly minus 0.6 Celsius, poured it out, and uh both drinks had identical dilutions, identical, but one right was stirred in, I have to look it up, but it's something like 30 seconds, and the other one was stirred in like a minute. And so, you know, that's why stirring, why we said I think before a couple times ago, is there's kind of more of an art to stirring a cocktail because you really can affect the dilution and the temperature of the drink by um how long you stir, whether you stir fast, whether you stir slow, whether you use big ice, whether you use little ice.
+
+[40:30] In a shaker, uh it's so violent that uh basically all things equal out, and you get to your equilibrium point in if you do it enough, basically no matter what you do. Um so in stirring, I mean in shaking, rather, where you have everyone really worried about their technique on shaking, uh, we find that it doesn't make that much of a difference. The most difference you're gonna get, as long as you shake enough, the most difference you're gonna get from shaking is actually in how you finish it, whether you strain it or not, whether you know whether you push the gate down when you're pouring. Like these are kinds of things that make a big difference in the finished cocktail. Um in stirring, where you're not really adding a lot of texture, though, those things do matter, the size of the ice, the how fast you stir, how slow you stir, because almost no one, in fact, no one I've ever seen stirs a drink until it reaches its temperature plateau.
+
+[41:15] Uh and so, you know, this is spoiling a little bit what you know what's going to go with the blog post. So uh, but but hopefully, you know, the the this one chart that I'm gonna put up where basically, you know, I pull two drinks at the same temperature, even though one was stirred for a minute and one was stirred for 30 seconds, and they're basically identical from a dilution standpoint, will show that really, you know, that this is the fundamental rule of cocktails is that um you know there is that chilling and dilution are linked, in extra inextricably linked, and that there is no chilling without dilution, and there is no dilution without um chilling. Um now, a lot of people, they uh you know they say, but you know, my ice comes from the from the fridge and uh uh for the freezer rather. And uh we have a chart that's coming into the blog post about that as well. And uh it it is true that there is some energy stored in an ice cube that um when you when you put an ice cube from the freezer into um into your drink, it chills your drink a little bit before it starts melting.
+
+[42:24] But that effect is not as big as you think, right? So if you were to stir two dr and you're gonna see this chart for yourself, if you stir two drinks, one with ice cubes from the freezer and one with ice cubes that have been left out on the you know on the counter until they've reached up to zero degrees uh Celsius, you will see that the uh freezer ice cubes only get the drink like half a degree colder, right? And and and I I really don't know whether this is an artifact or not. Some some scientists will have to call in and talk to us about it. But you know, Ebon Clem and uh Thomas Evan Clem is the uh B you know head of BR guest um uh beverage program and you know, well-known bartender and used to do a lot of high-tech cocktails, still still still works with a lot of these things, and Thomas Waugh is you know uh bartender at Death and Co.
+
+[43:11] Great bartender. We we all did this stirring uh thing at Tails of the Cocktail, and they noticed that when they used freezer ice as opposed to not freezer ice, that their freezer ice actually took longer to chill than uh a drink down than the one that was at zero degrees. Um and we replicated it, and in my ex in the experiments that I ran with them and one that I did separately, I found that that was also the case. I don't feel comfortable enough saying that that's actually happening, that it actually but it was it's interesting that that you know that that even appears to be the case. I don't really know why uh that would be except for the fact that maybe it takes longer to get the energy out from from raising a temperature than it does just to melt it because melting is such a a big wallop.
+
+[43:51] So, but in the chart you'll see in the blog post if you go to it at www.cookingissues.com, um it in fact took longer to chill a drink that was uh with ice creams from the freezer, and it didn't even make it to a final temperature that was that much lower. So you don't really win by um you don't really win by using ice that's in the freezer. The other interesting thing about uh freezer ice, people think that ice maintains a temperature for a long time below zero, it's not the case. We froze a cube, and you'll see a picture of it, um, around a thermocouple, and then put it into a big ice bin, and we let it sit there, and it went from minus 20 Celsius, which is about minus four or so in in Fahrenheitville, and uh it came all the way up to zero in in under 20 minutes. So ice doesn't really maintain its uh it's below freezing temperatures that long um because it's such a good conductor of heat, um, and you're not really winning from freezer ice.
+
+[44:49] Uh and the fundamental rule I think holds, remember there is no chilling without dilution, and there is no dilution without chilling. And with that, I think we will sign off from cooking issues. One more shout out to our sponsor, Hearst Ranch, cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. Vicious visions. Oh, you did crap me on this color.
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+[0:13] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, where we answer all of your cooking questions. You know, usually tech-related questions, but we like any any kind of questions. Uh we're here live in the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:36] Call in. I'm here today, of course, with Cooking Issues own Nastasha Lopez, the hammer. And uh, you know, she's here to keep me keep me honest, I guess. Uh today's food today's show is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Uh Whole Foods Market is turning 80, and they've partnered with some of its favorite friends for 30 days of Twitter giveaways.
+
+[0:53] Follow at Whole Foods Sync. Whole Foods NYC. I should read this beforehand, really. Uh follow at Whole Foods NYC and use the uh hashtag WFM NYC B Day. That's Whole Food Market New York City B Day.
+
+[1:12] WFM N Y C B Day to qualify and win prizes from Brooklyn Salsa Company, Rick's Picks, make good pickles, uh Gus Soda, uh Housing Works, whose bookstore you should support on uh Lafayette Street in uh Manhattan, and the New York Botanical Garden, an excellent place to visit, and more. Actually, those really are good places to get together. That's a 30th birthday. What'd I say? 80.
+
+[1:32] Oh, 80? Well, 80, 30. Yeah, same same same same thing. 30th birthday. Whole Foods is not yet 80.
+
+[1:38] Although more power to you, Whole Foods, may you make 80. Uh, right? Anyway. Uh okay. So uh today's first question is uh a follow-up on last week's question from Ryan Santos.
+
+[1:50] The first part of his question has to do with uh Nastasha. Uh he was the call um the person last week who asked for a date. I said uh don't even try, don't bother. He still wants to know Nastasha's sign. Uh it's uh Taurus, not Sagittarius Taurus, correct?
+
+[1:59] Oh I think he was saying that's his sign. Oh, uh I don't know. Uh anyway, his question his question was um we have a new infusion technique. I'm not sure if we talked about it on the radio or not. But basically what you do is you take uh uh whipped cream maker uh and uh that takes nitrous uh oxide uh chargers.
+
+[2:20] You put uh I usually use liquor, but you can use any liquid. You put something porous with flavor in it, herbs, like cilantro or Thai basil, uh regular basil, I guess, uh things like ginger, things like cocoa nibs, anything porous basically. You put it in with the with the liquor and you charge it with uh nitrous and you uh which is laughing gas, you know. Most people uh it turns out a lot of people who use these things use it to get high, right? They use uh the laughing gas.
+
+[2:47] Yeah, sure you don't. Anyway. I really don't. Okay. Uh anyway.
+
+[2:50] Uh I I tried it once in high school and I didn't actually like it, so uh uh I don't really use it to get high. But apparently there's a lot of people out there who don't even cook who have the equipment to do this. Uh so maybe they should try it with uh with um with liquor. Anyway, so you you charge it with nitrous, you swirl it around for about a minute, and then when you release the pressure inside the canister, basically uh you know you've the pressures forced all the uh liquor into your into the food that you're trying to get the flavor out of. And when you release it, all that stuff uh boils back out again, and you have a really very, very quick infused uh liquor.
+
+[3:24] You can see it on our blog, www.cooking issues.com. It's a good technique. Uh anyway, Ryan wants to know does this also work with solids? Uh and the answer is yes. I haven't tried it, but uh uh Alex and Aki at uh Ideas in Food, go check their blog, uh did it with uh Mozzarella, and there's a bunch of other people out there now who are using this technique to infuse solids with with flavor.
+
+[3:47] Anyway, uh so that answers that question, right? Right. Okay. Uh now let's go to some other email questions. Now remember, we will answer your questions live if you call in at 718-497-2128.
+
+[3:58] That's 718-497-2128. Okay. So Sam Liechtenstein calls in or Stein, what do you think? Liechtenstein? Okay.
+
+[4:07] Uh anyway, Sam c uh wrote in and said, uh, do you uh disagree or agree with the following statement um made by uh a fellow by the name of Chris uh Onstad, who's the uh author of a comic book called uh webcomic called uh Eakewood, and he has uh a cookbook, it's actually no longer available on Amazon, and uh Sam thinks it's a great cookbook. I have no idea because I've I've never read it. I haven't read any comic book cookbooks, actually, have you? No. No?
+
+[4:32] I'm willing to willing to read it. But anyway, uh so uh Chris Onstad, the author says uh in the book, once you make a potato chewy, and he's referring to hash browns, uh how you sh this should never happen to a hash brown. Once you make a potato chewy, you're doing things to it so wrong that it would be best if you just gave that person the potato and let them take it home and try to make sense of it themselves. Basically, if you make a hash brown that is chewy, I might as well just hand the dude a raw potato and let him go home and work with it because you've done a far worse thing to him. And Sam wants to know if I agree or not.
+
+[5:02] Uh well, I do agree that uh hash brown should not be not be chewy. Uh but um potatoes can be chewy uh and and be good. And so the the first thing I thought of was uh our stretchy potato ice cream, right? Because we make this ice cream and you read about it on our blog. I think I've mentioned it on the radio before, right?
+
+[5:19] Yeah. Where uh you but you blend cooked potatoes, steamed potatoes, into ice cream base and you freeze it, and what you get is this chewy, stretchy potato ice cream, and I think is is quite good. Um but I'm I'm assuming that that's not what Sam was wondering about. So I did some more research on the internet, and uh most people point to potatoes becoming chewy when you microwave them. And other people actually make chewy uh sweet potatoes uh by dehydrating them for for dog treats.
+
+[5:44] Apparently, if you have a dog, they like dehydrated sweet potatoes, he has cut pot uh sweet potatoes up and they turn almost into a raw hide chewy. So this led me to think well, what is it about a microwave that is going to make potatoes chewy? Uh and uh this also leads to the the answer that those people who are making hash browns chewy probably reheated the potatoes in the microwave, right? Uh and what's going on in a microwave is you are dehydrating uh the potato uh relatively quickly along a fairly large uh surface because you're actually heating not just the outside of the of the potato but uh a good region of the inner portion as well. So you're very effectively dehydrating the potato in a microwave.
+
+[6:23] So this chewiness is probably uh uh a dehydration phenomenon, right? Now uh this led me to think uh a lot of interesting things. One, uh perhaps our stretchy potato ice cream is actually a dehydration phenomenon because freezing is actually uh dehydrating. So what you're doing is you you take a starch that's got a lot of liquid in it that you've cooked, it's potato starch, and in the this is the ice cream I'm talking about, and you start freezing it. What happens?
+
+[6:47] Uh ice crystals are forming in the ice cream, and the water is being withdrawn from the starch complex as it's freezing up. So maybe uh the reason the potato ice cream is uh stretchy and chewy is we're partially dehydrating the potato starch as it freezes. What do you think, Staszi? Good? Yeah, that's a good idea.
+
+[7:03] You like that theory? Mm-hmm. It could be totally wrong, but uh, it's what I was thinking about. Um then I was thinking about microwave dehydration in general. I mean, microwave is a great way to dehydrate uh some fresh herbs.
+
+[7:14] It's also a really good way to make a small quantity of really crisp bread crumbs. It works a whole lot better than uh putting bread in an oven and drying it out. You just put uh you know thin uh slices of bread in your microwave and you slowly uh microwave it. And what happens, you have to be able to get rid of the water, but what happens is is that uh the water heats up and boils off, and then uh the it basically the microwaves focus on the area where there's water. So the whole thing dries out very, very, very evenly, and you get these incredibly crisp uh bread crumbs uh or you know uh croutons, whatever, very quickly.
+
+[7:49] And it's a very good technique. The problem with it is is that if any area of the bread starts to get uh warmer, because as soon as the water is gone, um basically uh there's nothing to stop the bread from getting well above uh well above the you know the boiling point. And what happens is if any area starts turning brown, the brown uh areas, the burnt areas of the bread absorb microwaves at a ferocious rate, and so they tend to grow very, very rapidly. So if you're not careful, your uh your bread can scorch and you can get these brown marks. So you want to be careful with it.
+
+[8:21] But if you if you slowly keep checking uh as you're microwaving bread, it's a great way to make make croutons. And this, you know, this is also why if you go to a place that makes sandwiches, this used to happen at this tackery I used to go to, because I love Mexican sandwiches, tortas, and they're one of my favorite sandwiches. Anyway, they would nuke their bread to reheat the bread, and every once in a while they'd overnuke it, and you get those little interior pockets of hard stuff in the bread, Stasi. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, gross, right?
+
+[8:44] Anyway, uh so these are all microwave dehydration things. But there's this blog, it's a vegan blog, and I forget the name of it. It's something like Jugalindo or something like that. You can find it by searching microwave potato chips. But uh, you know, they seem to have a nice blog, even though they're vegans, they seem to have a nice blog.
+
+[8:58] And um uh they have a technique for basically making potato chips. We'd a slice of potato chips and you put them in the microwave and you and you microwave them like 30, 40 seconds at a time, keep checking them to make sure that they haven't gone uh that they haven't turned too crisp and start turning brown, and they dehydrate into these potato chip-like things. They're not actually potato chips because they're not fried, and God only loves a fried potato chip because potato chips are something like like 30, 40 or even upwards uh percent oil, the oil they're fried in. And to me, I want my potato chip fried. If I I don't want a baked potato chip, I've never liked baked potato chips, I think they're an abomination.
+
+[9:34] But it's an interesting phenomenon, this uh dehydrated potato chip, and it actually works uh quite well. But if you under-dehydrate them, they're very, very chewy. So uh Sam, if you want to uh experiment, very long way of saying, if you want to experiment with um with making chewy potatoes, I would recommend something like the microwave or a dehydrator and just partially dehydrate them until they become chewy but not crunchy. And uh like everything else, you know, um you know, uh what what's his name? Uh Chris Onstad, the author of the cookbook, he didn't like uh chewy potatoes because they weren't what he expected.
+
+[10:09] But a lot of times, uh, you know, uh whether something is good or bad is just a matter of expectations. If you're expecting French fries and you get something chewy, well, that's awful. But if you want something chewy and you like the flavor of a potato, then there's nothing wrong with making chewy potatoes, right, Stas? Right, yeah, it's good, right? Yeah, okay.
+
+[10:25] Uh oh, another note on microwaves. Uh microwaves, uh, we talked about last time because uh one of our listeners is going to college and basically can only have a microwave. Well, uh and I told her, uh Stasy said that I was a jerk for suggesting this, but I told her to go out and get a cutting stone made of uh silicon carbide, throw it in the microwave, and get it super hot uh to use as a searing plate. Uh well, the good news is I tested this and it works fantastically. So go ahead and make your super high heat searing plates using silicon carbide cutting stones.
+
+[10:52] Anyway, uh I think we have a caller. Uh caller, are you there or you're on the air? Uh this is Don. Hey Don. Hey, how's it going?
+
+[11:01] I'm good with it. I was just asking, I was wondering if you heard about this uh bacon vodka. It's been out a little bit, but I guess it's uh starting to gain ground. Who's making it? It's uh it's spelled B-A-K-O-N, and it's uh bacon infused vodka.
+
+[11:16] Oh, infused. Yep. And I've had it in the Bloody Mary and it's terrific, but was wondering if you had any other ideas or recommendations of using it and something else. Well, I have I have not I have not tried it. Uh I've had many bacon infused uh liquors uh specifically whiskies that they make here.
+
+[11:35] Are you in New York or no? Nope, nope. I'm actually down in Merrida, Georgia. Hey, how you doing? Uh so great.
+
+[11:41] The um so in here in the city, there's was a number of bars doing uh uh bacon infused uh liquor, and they do it with a technique called fat washing. And in fat washing, you mix the bacon fat, preferably a real smoky bacon fat, like uh like Alan Benton's out of uh Tennessee makes a really fantastic smoky bacon and uh you know you use the fat from that. Is that's what they used, and you mix the fat up with the liquor and then you uh chill it and let it solidify. You take the fat off the top and you have bacon infused uh uh liquor. It's it's fantastic.
+
+[12:11] I've never tried it with vodka, so I'm not sure exactly what I would uh what I would what I would use it for. I'll say this though. Um that Lance, a guy named Lance, who's the master distiller over at Hangar One, was making a series of meat and other interesting uh vodkas that were distilled where he distilled them rat rather than infuse them. And he kept on having a problem with the bacon flavor getting rancid as he was distilling it, and he couldn't really do a good distilled one. At least he hadn't the last time I spoke to him, which I don't know, Nastash was that like a year ago or something like that?
+
+[12:38] No, like nine months, yeah. Yeah. Uh so it yeah it makes sense that it's an infusion. It probably would be good in in a bloody merry. I I'm sad to say I've not done too much experimenting with meat li liqueurs myself, with the exception of I did a beef and tomato uh distillate once that I thought was it uh it wasn't delicious in the sense of would I go out and order that instead of a beer?
+
+[13:00] No. You know what I mean? But uh it was it was good in the context that we were serving it as a small short shot next to a bunch of grilled uh uh tuna uh sinews, so it was so it was it was good. But this is definitely something that if you like doing this sort of thing, you could definitely try to do yourself. Just save up your uh bacon fat or any other uh fat uh that has a lot of flavor uh and then you know, melt it, stir it in with your liquor and then let it uh you know, put it in the freezer, let the fat come up to the top and solidify it.
+
+[13:28] You could probably make your own. Um and really play around with it. Yep. All right, uh I'm sorry I couldn't give you any more recipe ideas. I just I hadn't thought about it much.
+
+[13:37] Is that partially answer your question? No, no, yeah, I mean I tried doing the uh just the bacon martini and that uh of course fell kind of flat, kinda like you were saying, drinking the uh the meat flavored one with the tomato all by itself kind of didn't, you know please the palate. That's kind of what I experienced. Did you put any salt in? You know I didn't.
+
+[13:59] That's a good idea. That might cut back some of that that weird flavor. Yeah, I would put a little salt in because uh, you know, any time you have uh something that started out either with salt or sugar in it, and then that stuff all of a sudden goes away, you kind of miss it. I mean, think about when you eat just bacon fat by itself, it kind of tastes a little bit uh a little bit flat, a little fabby fla uh flabby rather, but not in a fat sense, but you know what I mean, in a taste sense. Right.
+
+[14:23] So if you if you throw a couple pinches of salt in that, and maybe even like a little hit of sugar, even though it's supposed to be a martini and not have a lot of sugar into it, I think you're gonna brighten up that flavor quite a bit. You might bring it back to kind of where you want it. All right. Well, that was very helpful. So I'll give the give that a whirl.
+
+[14:38] All right, thanks for calling in. You got it. Thank you. All right, bye bye. Um, we have another caller?
+
+[14:44] Mm-hmm. All right, hi, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, it's Julio, Priscilla Morgan's friend. Hey, good to talk to you. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[14:53] Doing well, dude. Sure, sure. I finally got your number. I was at the restaurant this weekend and picked up one of the cards. Oh, nice, nice.
+
+[14:59] Oh, uh talking about the French culinary restaurant, I assume, a great restaurant. You talking about the French culinary restaurant? No, no, no. Roberta's uh Roberta's, yeah. Oh, Roberta's, okay.
+
+[15:09] So there's two things, by the way, uh just for a second. Like I work at the French Culinary Institute. We have a great restaurant like Hull, which is like one of the best deals in Manhattan, and then I do the radio show here out of Roberta's in Brooklyn, which is a fantastic restaurant, does a lot of really great work, grows a lot of their own product, uses really high quality meats, including the meats from uh Heritage Foods, etc. etc. So we're talking about Roberta's restaurant.
+
+[15:28] You had a good meal, I assume? Fantastic. I I actually went went in early in the day and went back late that night. Oh, nice, nice. Double double hit double hitting.
+
+[15:37] Great. Double hitting, double hitting. But I thought of you and I thought, you know, I I I may not be calling the right person, but I've been on a diet for about six months, and I'm trying to figure out what desserts I can have that have no sugar. No su are you on a mean uh is this a not a calorie diet? This is uh a diet that you you can't have sugar, or is it just a calorie issue?
+
+[15:59] Calorie issue. Okay. Uh well, first of all, you know, uh he he is uh not a uh large man. He does not really need to diet, so you know you shouldn't worry about it so much. That's the first thing.
+
+[16:09] And uh the the the second thing is um sugar doesn't actually have uh that many that many calories. It's not normally going to be the sh depends on what you're eating, but a lot of times it's the the fat and other things in in the item that are gonna basically bulk up the the caloric content of it. You could do a lot of reduced uh again, nutrition, not my necessarily my specialty. I'm more of a taste and a and a tech guy. But you can you can focus on um obviously fruit-based uh desserts have a lot of bulk and s some fruits have quite a bit of sugar, but some don't, and just a little bit of sugar uh, you know, brightens them up.
+
+[16:42] Things things like uh berries. You know, we've done a lot of stuff that's fairly low in calorie and high in flavor, um, but they use a lot of technology. Like we made something that looks and eats um like uh pumpkin pie, but it's basically peach puree, you but you know, that's like not really achievable in a normal kind of restaurant. It requires liquid nitrogen and a whole bunch of other uh, you know, and a centrifuge and a whole bunch of other uh fan fancy stuff, but I mean, especially now at this time of year, you know, if you're gonna focus on I would focus on things that are satisfying but contain a lot of air with a with a little bit of uh sugar and and fat. For instance, whipped cream is not that bad for you because it's primarily air.
+
+[17:18] Do you know what I mean? Right. So if you're if you're doing if if you're like a uh um the kind of person who would go for a bowl of fruit and uh and cream, you know, if you use like a really nice whipped cream, you can get a real luxurious feel and it's still not gonna be uh that bad on the calories. So you see, I always focus on eating smaller quantities of stuff that's truly delicious rather than um you know not being satisfied eating an even larger quantity of things that just don't taste as good. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:44] Uh and you know, I walked past a box of meringues the other day, and I thought maybe Dave has an answer how to make fat-free meringues. Oh, well, meringues are often I mean, uh, real meringue is often fat, you know, fat-free if it's made with sugar, sorry, sugar, yeah. Sorry. Um, yeah, it's tough. I mean, but meringues, I mean you feel them, they're so light, there's not actually that that much sugar.
+
+[18:07] Think about it. So if you cook, right, you're taking let's say you take uh a dozen egg whites and you whip them in in your kitchen aid and you put maybe a cup of sugar in, right? Now you filled your entire kitchen aid bowl with uh you know, with meringue, and the whole thing only contains uh a cup of sugar, which doesn't have that many that many calories. So on on a pound per pound basis, meringue is extremely high in sugar. But uh on a volume basis, and and a lot of times we tend to eat based on the volume of how something looks, it doesn't actually have that much in it.
+
+[18:36] Now the sugar is there uh not just as a sweetener, as a structural component. You can move to things that have the bulking capabilities of sugar, but without the calories, but then you're moving into kind of um what's the word I'm looking for? Fake sweeteners. You know what I mean? And so you can you can do that.
+
+[18:55] So if you want, I mean, like I I tend not to focus on those kinds of problems because like you know, we're where I use a lot of ingredients that uh people some people are horrified by things like Xanthan gum, carrageen and gum, uh methyl cells, things like this, right? But they my my whole shtick is that I use them uh to try and make food taste better or be better, not to get around um not to get around nutritional or economic problems. And so the the upshot of that is is I very rarely get to focus on problems that are primarily related to nutrition or to um or to things like calorie counting because it goes counter to my mandate at the French culinary which is to focus on uh on quality first and foremost. Um you know but like like I said there are many there are many uh things that have the structural so what what typically what someone will do is uh and sometimes they do it for diabetics uh although there they use um basically uh sugars that have the same functional and sweetness as sugar but just don't have the uh they don't have you know problems with you with the insulin um but what they tend to do is they they add a bulking agent that has no calories and then they add a high intensity sweetener that has no calories so they have to use kind of a two part problem uh you know and there's people that have uh invented they invented this stuff called lites which I actually don't remember how it's made but it's a it's uh a sugar that uh has no sweetness and no calories but whips into a meringue just like sugar and I was experimenting with it to make savory marshmallows right but you could also use it in conjunction with a high intensity sweetener to make a meringue that had kind of zero zero calories other than the uh other than the egg white protein uh right right anyway I hope this is what honey be a solution putting honey in the no honey has like uh honey is uh just as many calories you know and and also the problem with honey is honey is very uh hydroscopic it pulls water in so it's very very hard to make confections with a hundred percent honey that uh that don't weep or or suck water out of out of the air which is what you know certain confections use honey and they need honey, like Tironi is a characteristically has a lot of honey in it. Uh but uh other confections, like when you add honey, like if you're making chocolate, you can't really use honey as a sweetener because it's going to pull water in and then ruin the chocolate.
+
+[21:12] I see, I see. But I will I will research this more, and the next time I see you, uh I will ha I will have some decent answers. Alright. I'll call you next week. All right, thanks.
+
+[21:21] Thanks for calling and we'll talk to you soon. All right, Dave. All right, bye bye. See you soon. Bye bye.
+
+[21:25] We have another caller side? All right, your caller, you're on the air. Hi. I um have been reading a lot lately about ethnic foods and the trending popularity of specific ethnic foods like Indian food growing in popularity, and I've had Indian food in restaurants and really liked it, but I've always been reluctant to prepare stuff like that at home. Right.
+
+[21:45] So I'm wondering if you have any advice or tips on specific Indian dishes that might be a good starter American dish to prepare. Okay, so you've never uh you're what kind of Indian dishes do you like? Um I mean, pretty much every Indian dish that I've ever tried, I've enjoyed. I like stuff like butter chicken or um dolls, things like that. Right.
+
+[22:10] Okay, so I would I would uh shy away from any of the dishes that for their completion require specific uh pieces of equipment. So for instance, certain Indian dishes require the use of a special oven called a tandoor that's basically shaped like a vase and and uh very high heat. And so things like non, things like uh 10, you know, like tip like typical like tandoori chicken or chicken tika masala, things like that, to really get the flavor as as you just how you would want it in a restaurant requires a uh a tandoor, right? Not that you can't imitate those at home, but you know, it to really if you really want to be satisfied and make it 100%, those are gonna be difficult. So I would I would not do those first.
+
+[22:49] Secondly, I would go get uh a good Indian cookbook if you don't if you don't have one, because the the best way to to first is to eat some like you've done, but then to really immerse yourself in how a specific cooking system works. So if you grow up like I did, basically, you know, where in the house the go-to was some Americanized form of kind of basic Mediterranean Italian style cooking, right? Which that's my upbringing, is you you you know what to do when you put a pan on, you know you're gonna put in some oil, some onions are gonna go in there, you're gonna saute them, and then at the end you're gonna put in your garlic, whatever else. You know, you just you know how it flows, right? So what you need to do is read a couple cookbooks, Indian cookbooks, that just get a feeling for the flow of how Indian cooking works.
+
+[23:29] So you're gonna start here similarly with like you know, with uh probably ghee, which is the melted butter, and then you know, things like uh uh onions and then you know, maybe uh, you know, ginger or whatever spicy things, then you're gonna probably saute your spices because that's a characteristic part of uh the Indian cooking is to saute the spices, bring out the aroma, and then start adding your other things, right? So like I would read a couple cookbooks, a good one, it's vegetarian, but um Lord Krishna's cuisine, I forget, was the one that I bought a number of years ago. I'm sure it's been surpassed, I'm sure it's dated. But I would get like a like a fairly authoritative Indian cookbook, one that has enough recipes for you to try, but focus on ones that are more about the mentality of Indian cooking. Because I think that what you really want to do is immerse yourself in the mentality.
+
+[24:12] Uh and and you know, I I I do a lot of uh curries, um they're also really good when vegetarian friends come over because there's so many good Indian vegetarian dishes out there. You know, it's one of it's one of the cuisines that is based on uh on vegetarian dishes. And so, you know, and and actually, if you ever uh you know, again, I'm not you know supporting being a vegan, but if you have a vegan friends come over, a lot of times uh, you know, if you substitute, if you use dishes, like for instance, there's a dish that I really love to make called uh Navratan curry, right? And I do my own version of it, it's Americanized, but basically it's a sauce uh where you start by uh sauteing uh onions and then you put your spices like um it's got coriander it's got cumin it's got uh it's got uh ginger it's got some uh hot pepper in it uh regular pepper you know a host of other things but then you also saute cashew nuts in it and then uh you after you do that you add some tomato paste coconut milk pineapple you blend the whole McGill and then you can toss it with any kind of steamed vegetable you want and it's delicious. N Navratan curry it's delicious delicious curry uh and if you if you use the coconut milk and you use olive oil to saute instead of butter you have a vegan dish and so you can if you have a vegan coming over and you know it's a really good way to make it uh and have um have something that's vegan that you also like um another uh another you know trick with Indian uh food is really sourcing the ingredients I think you know I'd really focus on sourcing some ingredients that are uh high quality um and that you know allow you to achieve the authentic taste so when you're getting a rice you're gonna want to get you know uh one of the the actual rices that they would use in a particular particular dish I mean often you're gonna use a basmati or something like that um and you know do it with a little with uh you know throw some some spices in when you when you make it but again uh the key to anything is to first taste what you've done and so you know whether you've hit the target or not right I mean I've never been to India proper.
+
+[26:09] It's one of the places on earth I'm really dying dying to go. Uh I've never been but first you know I I know what American Indian food tastes like. It's and I know what London Indian food tastes like, but I don't know what Indian Indian food tastes like. But anyway, so you have a target, and that's good. Now figure out the the the fundamentals of of you know what it's like for someone to step into a kitchen in India, uh what they're thinking, what is going to go in the pot.
+
+[26:30] And then the recipe itself isn't so important. It's more understanding the flow of how they cook and how they're going to be doing it. Does that answer your question, I hope? Yes, it does, actually. And with um respect to something you said about the different flavors and the spice mixtures and things that go into Indian, from what I understand, there are many different recipes that can make up a garamasala, for example, or like a curry powder.
+
+[26:53] So just looking at the shelf, you know, in the grocery store, it appears that there's a a bunch of different products that you can buy that kind of would help along that way. So I'm excited to start trying some of those. Right. And you know, but it's funny, you know, you try a bunch of different ones, they're all very different. Eventually, if you really get into it, you're gonna want to make your own spice mixtures because they're just gonna be a lot fresher and you can tailor them to your to your exact needs.
+
+[27:14] Think about it this way. It's you know it's i in the US, we think about um, you know, we we're amazed at the kind of variation in something like a garamasa, things like that. But you know, but if you go to North Carolina, right, the difference of like 20 miles in North Carolina is enough to uh cause a fist fight over what you're gonna put in your uh barbecue sauce. Okay. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:36] And so, you know, you when you think about it that way, and you then you go to India with which is huge and has so many people in it, you know, it's it's it's an extremely, extremely varied and interesting cuisine. You could spend a whole lifetime doing nothing but Indian food and it would it would repay your efforts. You know what I mean? It's like a huge it's a huge and interesting uh journey that you're embarking on. So really regional.
+
+[27:59] Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, very much so, very much. And and again, I only know the the the surface of it just because I haven't had a chance to travel over there yet. But uh I wish you well, uh, and I'm sure you're gonna have a lot of fun. Thanks so much. I appreciate your advice.
+
+[28:12] Thank you. Okay. So uh uh I have another email question coming in. Uh, we're taking a break. Okay, we'll take a break and we'll come back with uh more questions on cooking issues radio.
+
+[28:23] Oh, how you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? Thanks so much, Bone Brother. How you feel, mate?
+
+[28:30] I'm feeling all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey Jam! Sure getting down.
+
+[28:40] Look at him! We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[28:57] Let's take them up, Brad. We gotta take you high. All right. You wanna do it again? Yeah, let's go on.
+
+[29:12] We gotta take you high. Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow about two cores.
+
+[29:27] And then I wanna wave in. Let's go and fill that within it. Now, all right. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get it take us higher.
+
+[29:38] Yeah. Take us higher. Brad. Brad! Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[29:55] I'm Dave Arnold here with Nastasha Lopez, the hammer. And we're here to answer your cooking questions for a couple more minutes at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So uh Jesse uh emailed in and asked, Do you guys have any advice on slicing mint without turning it black? As soft as I try, it still ends up turning black.
+
+[30:17] Interesting question, Jesse. So what's happening in mint or basil or anything like this is that uh as you're cutting it, you're breaking the cells. As you break the cells, the uh the enzymes, the cells rupture, and the enzymes within the cells can mix with certain compounds inside of uh of the mint uh and they form brown, uh brown colors. And there's very little uh you can do to prevent that, uh with the exception of it's not how soft you cut the uh it's not how soft you cut the mint that's going to uh cause it. It's how sharp your knife is.
+
+[30:51] So if you use an extremely sharp knife, right, you're gonna rupture as few cells as possible. You want to use a very thin, very sharp knife. Um if you and slice it, and you're gonna get the minimum amount of uh blackening of the cells, right? Um if you even if you cut softly with a dull knife, you're just mashing it, right? You also don't want to just whack it around on the board.
+
+[31:13] You know, that's why people they roll their their leaves up and then they slice uh not just gently, but you know, v with very sharp knife. Uh another technique you can use is you can blanch the mint briefly in uh boiling water. And what that's gonna do is just kill the enzymes. Uh Harold McGee, the author of On Food and Cooking, had a second book uh called The Curious Cook. Unfortunately, it's not in print anymore.
+
+[31:35] You can get it on Bookfinder. Um but The Curious Cook has a uh a long chapter basically on pesto where he deals with just this kind of problem how to make a pesto, which is the same problem as mint. It's basil, but they're in the same family, it has the same problem. Uh how to keep it bright in a in a in a pesto. And it's really interesting uh an interesting chapter to read because it it really shows what we do in general here uh in in cooking the way we approach it, which is to break it down into a series of variables and then try to figure out what's going on with each one of the variables.
+
+[32:06] And the the entire book, The Curious Cook is about that. It's really uh it's a shame it's not in print right now because it's a very good combat companion piece to on food and cooking. Whereas on food and cooking is more of an encyclopedic reference with uh some lore about you know cooking. The Curious Cook is more how to become like Harold McGee, right? Uh how to think like he does, like uh, or you know, for that matter, it's a similar way to think how we do when we're cooking, which is to break break things into a series of variables and try to understand what's going on.
+
+[32:36] So if you can get a copy of the Curious Cook and and read it, it would be use it's useful for everyone in a way of figuring out uh a method of thinking. So uh blanching the the mint has the problem that you um you know you you change the flavor, it's no longer fresh. You could cut it under alcohol, and that's gonna not, but it's in alcohol then. I mean, that's what I would do. Cut it under alcohol.
+
+[32:58] But uh it's uh it's uh, you know, that's usually only useful in alcoholic beverages. So it's it's a difficult problem. Um McGee experimented with using things like ascorbic acid, and that doesn't really uh or scorpic acid is an antioxidant, stops many things from turning brown. He didn't get it to have that much of an effect in basil, probably because it didn't get to where it needed to go fast enough before the browning happened. I bet if he vacuum-infused ascorbic acid into the mint leaves, he would have been able to get a decent result, but alas, he did not have a uh vacuum machine or even an ISI whipper to check check it out when he was writing the book, but that might be uh another another way to go.
+
+[33:33] But if you're not, if it doesn't matter that it's not hyper hyper fresh, uh quick blanch will help. Otherwise, just use an extremely sharp knife and be ginger about it. I'm sorry I didn't have any sort of magic bullet for you, Jesse, but that's uh, you know, you chose a uh a tough problem. So uh okay, so on to a separate and weird phenomenon, um an interesting one, I think. It's called the impembe effect.
+
+[33:58] Impemba impemba. What do you think? Impemba? Mm-mm. Mpemba effect.
+
+[34:03] Uh and uh what that is is um and it's just interesting because it just shows how you can be wrong in so many ways. Um it's been known for a long time that if you take and you heat water up uh versus water that's cold and you put them in the freezer, that it's possible for the hot water to freeze first, right? That seems counterintuitive, yes, that's right. Right. In fact, it seems so counterintuitive that you know you would say things like, Well, that's absurd or ridiculous or impossible, or that someone who says that must have uh a cog loose, right?
+
+[34:33] Because on a simple on a simple level, you know, physics, you think, well, look, the hot water, when you put it in the freezer, has to chill down to zero, right, before it it freezes, and the cold water starts closer to zero, so it's gonna get there first, it's gonna freeze first, right? It just seems physically impossible that anything else else would happen, and yet it does. Uh and and it just goes to show that this this simple thing, it seems impossible but is true, was observed by a schoolboy in uh uh what country was he in? He was some it was a country in Africa in the 60s, and he observed this phenomenon as a child and was laughed out of the school, and then later, you know, kept on basically saying, Look, it's true, and turns out he's right, and now they've named the effect after him. His name was Mr.
+
+[35:16] Mpemba, right? Mm-hmm. Anyway, so uh anywho, so the the thing is is that how can this possibly be true? And it took decades, decades for scientists to actually figure out what the heck was going on in in this in in this situation. And the new scientists back in March of this year published uh or talked uh referenced a paper uh that was written, a 30-page paper written by um uh a guy that had spent 10 years researching this problem, and he thinks he's you know finally come up with the answer, and the answer is this, and it leads to an interesting phenomenon the phenomenon of supercooling.
+
+[35:52] So supercooling a liquid means that you cool it down below its freezing point before it starts to freeze. And the reason this happens is because ice, in order to form, it needs to have a uh a nucleation site for a crystal to start. It's very hard for crystals to start forming in water to become ice. So they need these things called nucleation sites. So when you super cool something, you supercool it down to a point where the ice can nucleate and then bam, the whole thing rises back up in temperature to freezing and starts freezing uh starts freezing up.
+
+[36:19] That's how ice forming works. So it turns out that by heating uh a sample, you actually alter the nucleation sites such that they can't super cool as much before they freeze up. So in fact, the mass of ice does freeze uh faster if it's been can freeze faster if it's uh been been heated. But it led me to think then of the concept of supercooling, right? So there's supercooling and there's superheating.
+
+[36:44] Water is pretty interesting. If you you need to supercool it below zero degrees to get it to start freezing up, right? You can also superheat it uh above a hundred degrees uh because it the same way it's very hard for ice crystals to form, it's also hard for bubbles to form, right? So bubbles need a nucleation site. That's why if you have a super clean glassware, like hyper analytically clean glassware, like you use like uh chromic and sulfuric acid to melt all of the organic crap out of the inside of a glass, don't do that.
+
+[37:10] But if you did that, then you filled it with champagne, you get hard no bubbles because there's no place for the bubbles to form. So in superheating, what you do is you take something that has no nucleation sites, like you've boiled it once, right? You stick it in a microwave, which heats it all uh without a lot of convection currents because it's heating it around instead of heating it from the bottom, and then you pull it out, it's well above a hundred degrees, you throw sugar in it, and it instantly boils and sp splashes boiling water in your face, and you get horribly scalded and have to go to the hospital. It's a known phenomenon. Anyway, back to microwaves, right?
+
+[37:38] Anyway, so supercooling can also be used, right? Uh and so there's a uh chef, Seiji Yamamoto in uh Japan, who has uh uh an apparatus to do supercooling, uses extremely clean glassware, I guess, and he puts water or water-based liquids in and he chills them well below zero, and then as you agitate them, right? You just boom, you agitate them, you create little bubbles. Those little bubbles become nucleation sites, and ice starts to form. So he has these really cool demos, and I believe it's on YouTube, where uh you take supercooled liquid and he pours it, and as he pours it, it turns to ice, forms a slushy, which is pretty cool.
+
+[38:10] Um and uh just the impemba effect got me thinking about all this. Uh unfortunately, it's not possible to freeze an entire block of ice solid. In order to freeze an entire block uh uh like a thing of water solid using supercooling, you would have to supercool it down to negative eighty Celsius, and that's just not possible. You can't get really um you know you're probably at best only gonna get a couple, 10, 10, 20, twelve twenty best degrees, not even below zero uh Celsius before it starts to nucleate. So you can but you can freeze something like a quarter, a third, not probably not a third, probably a quarter of the water in into slush, which is pretty cool.
+
+[38:45] But my favorite way to do this is actually a multiple effect is uh when you put soda in a freezer and you pull it out just before she freezes, and then you uncap it, and then it all of a sudden turns to ice, right? Uh and the and I like that because I like super cold, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the reason this happens is twofold. One, uh carbon dioxide is uh dissolved in the liquid, and that actually lowers the temperature at which it wants to freeze, right? It's a freezing point um depression.
+
+[39:11] When you uncap it, all of a sudden carbon dioxide leaves, there's less carbon dioxide, the freezing point's less depressed. So now all of a sudden the liquid's more super cool than it was before. Secondly, those little bubbles provide nucleation sites, a crap load of them, like all at once. I almost cursed on air, I apologize. It forms a crap load of these bubbles all at once.
+
+[39:29] And uh so the entire thing basically just turns to a mass of uh flaky ice crystals. So I'm still trying to figure out a good uh way to use this in uh in the in the kitchen. You got anything, Nastasha? You think that there's any kind of use for that? I don't know, Dave, no.
+
+[39:43] No. She's probably right, which brings me kind of she's you know, and stash is always right about we not really always right about these things because there's many things like I say negative. Just negative, right? Like she, you know, you in case you meet her, right? You know, like I say, she there's many things she doesn't like for no apparent reason, like French fries or you know, for some reason she doesn't like french fries, doesn't like potato chips except salt and vinegar, which is bizarre, bizarre, bizarre.
+
+[40:05] So you can't really trust her on these things, but in this case I think she's right. Uh just because uh although supercooling is really, really cool, I mean, well, sorry, nifty, right? Uh super cooling is really nifty, it's probably gonna end up being uh just uh a gimmick. And on the topic of just a gimmick, uh, I'll mention one last thing before we leave. And uh this is a cool gimmick.
+
+[40:27] If any of you out there have liquid nitrogen and a vacuum machine, um, which you know, you should have both, frankly, you know what I mean. Uh and this was told me by Johnny Asini Patriot Chev at John George, who in turn learned it from Chris Young, who's working with Nathan Mirvold on the miracle book that's coming out at the end of the year. Um, if you stick liquid nitrogen into a vacuum machine and then you close the vacuum machine and let it run for several minutes, all of a sudden ice starts f forming on the top of the liquid nitrogen. Okay. Then as soon as you release it, the the vacuum, the ice goes away.
+
+[40:59] So you can never touch or get to the ice, right? Ever. Uh, and uh, and so Johnny was like was wondering about this, and I did a bunch of research and uh what's happening, and it looks really cool. It's like this like frosty snow ice forming on the top of the liquid nitrogen. What you're actually doing is forming uh nitrogen ice.
+
+[41:16] And it turns out that liquid nitrogen, which you know clocks in around minus 200 Celsius in that range, minus 190 something Celsius uh at atmospheric pressure. Um, solid nitrogen isn't that much colder than liquid nitrogen, right? And so what happens is is you put the um liquid nitrogen, you let the container come up to or come down to temperature, so you're not boiling for that reason too much, put it in the vacuum machine and you suck a vacuum on it, what you're doing is uh evaporating a crap load of nitrogen off the top of the uh vessel, and you're actually evaporatively cooling the liquid nitrogen down that extra couple of degrees Celsius and forming solid nitrogen snow on the top of your and it looks really cool and it's really you know, whatever. Anyway, uh so you're f and you can YouTube it if you if you want to see it. But you're forming solid nitrogen snow, but yet you can never touch it.
+
+[42:05] Another, another pain in the butt in kitchen technology. Anyway, so uh that was this week's cooking issues. Join us again next week at uh from 12 to 1245. And another shout out to Whole Foods' 30th birthday, not their 80th birthday. Happy birthday, Whole Foods.
+
+[42:24] Oh you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:14] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Cooking issues the show where you call in with your cooking issues, and we hope to uh solve them. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, this week's Cooking Issues is brought to you by the Barter House.
+
+[0:38] The Barter House is a proud supporter of the Heritage Radio Network. The Butterhouse works with family vineyards and small bottlers from around the world to bring only the finest and most flavorful wines to market. To learn more about Butterhouse, please visit them on the web at www.thebarterhouse.com or call them at 917-463-3076. That's 917-463-3076. That's not our number.
+
+[1:01] That's the Barter House's number. And today we're actually sampling one of their uh one of their wines. Uh this wine is from uh from Uruguay. Yeah. And it's a mixture of uh uh what's it a mixture of?
+
+[1:15] It's Tembernillo and Tanat, uh, or I don't know, it's pronounced Tanat. I think it's Tanat with a T. Anyway, T-A-N-N-A-T. We'll get to that in a minute. But the name of the wine, I swear to God, the name of the wine is Boozer.
+
+[1:27] Boozer! Like it's the best name for a wine ever. I could see a cult following building around a wine called Booza. I mean, it's just genius. I I have never actually, I don't think had a wine from uh uh Uruguay before, but it's quite nice.
+
+[1:41] It is and um and this Tanat's a very interesting variety because uh several years ago a uh scientist out of uh England um did a study trying to figure out what it is about red wines that actually makes them uh healthy uh from a cardiovascular standpoint, right? And uh he settled on the on this class of chemicals called procyanidins that are in red wine, and he did a bunch of uh studies where he basically studied the um the cardiovascular health of different people in different regions and discovered that people that drank a lot of wines uh that were high in uh procyanidins basically got less heart disease. It's his findings, right? And it turns out that the wine with the most, the variety with the most procyanidins in it is is to not. Uh and so uh I tend to believe that all health and food stuff is horse hockey and will eventually be proven wrong.
+
+[2:31] But if you believe that sort of thing, uh that uh you know that you're gonna get super healthy from drinking a lot of red wine, uh then I mean um obviously there are some cardiovascular benefits to drinking uh moderate amounts of alcohol, but anyway, whether or not his particular analysis is correct, uh to not as made a splash over the past couple of years as perhaps being an extraordinarily cardiovascular health uh cardiovascularly healthy wine. But I think it's quite enjoyable. What do you think? Yeah, it's really good. I like it.
+
+[3:00] Yeah. Anyway. The Barter House and Booza. I love it. I can't I can't get enough of it.
+
+[3:05] I really can't. I might I don't know how much this costs, but I might uh I might actually buy it just so I can. You know, I I tend to refer to all liquor as booze. Yeah. And my wife, Jen, she hates it.
+
+[3:14] She's like, it sounds so coarse. She doesn't sound like that at all, by the way. It sounds so coarse. You call it booze. I'm like, I can't help it.
+
+[3:21] Anyway, booze. We have a collar. We should try to call it. We have a caller? All right.
+
+[3:24] Uh let's take our caller. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's Julio. Hey, hey, Julio, oh my god, I feel terrible. I meant to uh do the research this morning and I got all tied up.
+
+[3:36] Um you didn't do your homework? I'm a b I'm a I I feel it's it's interesting that I didn't do my homework because I actually am going back to class later today. I'm retaking organic chemistry at NYU uh just to brush up, and so I this is a prefigurement of what it's like to not do your homework and to be caught red-handed not doing your homework. But uh you know, I was trying to think more about it. Specifically, you were you were interested in uh uh meringues that uh have uh a lower sugar content, correct?
+
+[4:09] Right. Now, do you want to be able to make them at home or do you just want to be able to purchase them? Well, you know, I have a sweet tooth, so I appreciate anything sweet that I can make at home that I don't gain weight on. Hmm. Well, remember what I said before, the good thing about meringues is they're actually uh very, very large percentage error.
+
+[4:29] So they're actually not that caloric on a volume basis. And so they're they're they're actually very, very good snacks to have around if you have an intense sweet tooth, but you want to eat you want to eat something that's gonna satisfy that sweet tooth, but you don't want to get a lot of calories because they provide a lot of sweet sensation for the amount of calories they had. Uh I remember I said last week, and this is what I was going to investigate more, is seeing whether or not we could do a high intensity sweetener mixed with uh high intensity sweetener mixed with um uh like a bulking agent, like uh, you know, like a non-nutritive uh sweetener that has the properties of sugar that you want in a meringue. I'm hesitant to do it though, just because it goes against kind of what I what I spend my time thinking about, which is uh, you know, tr trying to always increase things from a quality standpoint, not necessarily to try and get around um different issues. But but but this time, I swear Nastasha, the hammer is usually the hammer for other people.
+
+[5:30] But Nastasha, you're gonna force me early in the week rather than wait until the last minute. And even if you even if you don't have a chance to uh cause actually I won't be we won't be here live next week because uh I'd be teaching uh low temperature sous vide cooking at the school. But I I on a stack of Bibles promise to to get this information and and either the next time we go live if you call in or else uh I will I will get this information to you somehow. I promise. Here's your penalty for not doing the homework.
+
+[6:03] Uh oh. What's a good what's a good recipe for kale? I c I you know I live near the farmer's market on Union Square and there's beautiful kale out now. Right. Uh I always like I say, I always I've had kale raw in raw food places and and uh I don't really like it raw.
+
+[6:20] I I would recommend cooking it like you would like you would basically cook any green, which is just you know, I I actually t like kale when it's kind of overcooked. I always uh chop it. Um I don't bother removing the large uh uh I remove just the end of the stem, but I don't take the whole vein out. But I know some people that take the vein out of the center of the kale and then chop it. I'll usually saute uh I would usually saute um uh onion and then at the last minute throw in uh the garlic and then throw in the kale, which will provide provide its own moisture as it cooks down, and then you can decide whether you want to add any uh sweetener.
+
+[6:57] Uh definitely hit some acid after it's done cooking down. I would add a little acid at the end to brighten it up and you know make sure you add enough salt. What do you think, Nastasha? You cook greens like that, right? How do you do it?
+
+[7:07] Uh with oil and garlic and salt and cook it down. Like I just said. Yeah, yeah. Good for paying attention to the channel. Yeah, I remember once in Italy having something very similar to kale and then prepared it with pine nuts and raisins.
+
+[7:19] Does that sound familiar? Not not necessarily familiar, but it sounds delicious. I mean, uh, you know, I like any kind of cooked green, although you you'll be upset with typically when I do it, I cook uh a lot of meat into it as well and mix beans. I mean, I grew up eating uh basically every week my mom would make uh an escarole dish where she would take esquerol and we would uh we would do the onions and then the garlic and then uh and then basically uh uh uh hot sausage and uh bacon and cook it down and then we would then we would add the escarole, which is a really good bitter green, and that would counteract with the you know with the bacon and then we would add some acidity. I would usually add it in the form of mustard, although you could use vinegar or lemon, and then uh we would finish it off actually with beans, with uh, you know, with white beans, because it's super hardy, greens and beans and bacon.
+
+[8:06] I mean, you can't really go wrong. Uh you know, as soon as the fact as soon as the weather starts getting a little bit colder, I'm gonna go ahead and and uh go make that because that's you know childhood childhood memories. Right, right. Comfort, comfort. Yeah.
+
+[8:19] All right. Well, thanks. All right, well, thanks for calling in. I will get the answer. Okay.
+
+[8:23] I'll call you not next week, but the the following week. And good luck at the your class next week. Thank you so much. All right, thanks, Dave. All right, bye.
+
+[8:31] Uh all right. Let's take our first email question then. Uh, because uh I I believe well, we're still drinking the booze. We'll we'll let you know whether or not our heart feels any better when we're done finishing the booze, whether the procyanidins in the tanat are actually helping us or not. Um But uh we have a question from Gabe in New York City.
+
+[8:51] Any advice for making chocolate at home? Well, Gabe, you asked the right people. Uh there is a website called Chocolate Alchemy.com, which caters to making chocolate at home. And basically what everyone uses is a small when you're making chocolate, one of the steps is the grinding of the chocolate, right? There's a bunch of different steps when you're making uh chocolate, assuming you already have beans, cocoa beans that are roasted.
+
+[9:17] So you want to break those down first do a grind, and then basically they get ground to a finer and finer dimension. The whole point of grinding down chocolate is so that you don't feel the uh graininess of the chocolate after it's ground. You want to get the particle size very, very small, down to like, you know, 20 uh 20 microns or so. And uh what what that does at the same time that you grind it, you're doing a couple things. One, you're reducing the particle size of both the chocolate and the sugar that you've added.
+
+[9:42] You're also uh making sure that the cocoa uh butter is totally covering all the particles so that it's nice and smooth and you don't have any cocoa particles that aren't coated with butter. Okay? Now uh that that said, basically, chocolate, you can't make chocolate just out of uh cocoa beans out of nibs, because uh chocolate, bar chocolate, has more cocoa butter in it, the fat from cocoa, than is in the whole beans. So you're gonna need to get a hold of some cocoa butter, right? Usually you get um the deodorized cocoa butter because uh most cocoa butter you get apparently I'm told wasn't good cocoa butter to begin with, so they have to deodorize it.
+
+[10:20] But anyway, that's what I use at the school. You get cocoa butter, you you and and you get cocoa nibs. Now there's two pieces of equipment you need. You need uh basically a champion uh juicer, right? Because champion juicer also makes things like peanut butter, and that's the way we use it when we're when we're doing chocolate.
+
+[10:36] So a champion juicer has a bunch of little teeth and it just grinds up the nibs. So you throw the nibs into the champion juicer, and just like you're juicing carrots or making peanut butter, it grinds it to a paste. And you keep grinding it with the champion until it warms up and kind of liquefies. It's a kinghell mess, but it's you know it's it doesn't take very long. And then you put uh melted cocoa butter and and the ground up chocolate that you have, along with sugar, usually a little bit of uh powdered uh lecithin, which is an emulsifier, a very small amount, like you know, uh I think less than half a percent or something like that, even less, and usually some vanilla.
+
+[11:10] You want to make sure that you don't use any uh you can't do use things like honey because it'll soak in water. Water is the enemy of chocolate, so you want to make sure there's no uh chocolate in it at all. I mean sorry, no uh water in it at all. So you you know, no honey, no um nothing with water, not vanilla extract. You want to use straight beans or even vanilla sugar if you have it, if you have it that you like.
+
+[11:31] And you want to put it in this machine uh called a uh Santha, which is basically a very small version of a chocolate, I don't know how you pronounce it, melanger, like a chocolate mixer. It's basically two little stone wheels that roll on a round stone surface and just grind chocolate. If you look up chocolate melanger, melanger, melanger, yeah, who knows. Anyway, you look at it's basically two rocks that rotate around on another rock, and and that over the course of a long time makes the particles finer and finer and finer and finer and finer, and eventually you get chocolate. Um now uh and I believe we might have a recipe for ketchup flavored chocolate on our website, but just you know what, don't start with that.
+
+[12:08] Start with regular chocolate, go to chocolate alchemy and look up look up some of their some of their things. Now, normally when you're making chocolate, you grind until the particle size is is right, and you also in you're also like flashing off volatiles in this. So you want to make sure that you are releasing just the amount of volatiles that that you like. Now, a chocolate maker can do this by running it in this uh in this breakdown machine Melange, whatever it's called, Santha, whatever. Uh it's this one by the way was not made for chocolate.
+
+[12:35] It was made for uh grinding up uh lentils. They're they're Indian um anyway. So that you grind it for a for a little while with the lid off and that's going to release volatiles and allow you to kind of get where you want uh and it's also going to let you flash off some extra water and then you're gonna want to cap it. And in order to get the texture right in other words very very smooth, you're gonna have to run it for two, three days. Now um uh that might affect the and I'm sure it will affect the flavor of your chocolate, but the guys at the school, our pastry department the school now does this as part of their demonstration for the pastry department and they've gotten some pretty good stuff that that tempers uh the tempers fairly well and it's a a lot of fun to play around with so you're you're looking at an initial investment roughly five hundred dollars for a Santa and a uh and a champion juicer but from there on in you could basically make whatever you want.
+
+[13:25] Now that there's it's also an interesting time for chocolate because there's a lot of companies that have started making some smaller batch chocolates around. So you know uh for many years now Jacques Therese has made you know the dean of our pastry studies has made his own chocolate first in um in Brooklyn in Dumbo and now uh at his larger facility in Manhattan. Um you have Mass Brothers makes chocolate in Brooklyn and there's a new company actually uh just starting out called Cacao Prieto that we visited Nastasha and I visited when was that? Friday Friday and uh they're you know associated with the Razor and shiny knife people uh here in Brooklyn and uh they're actually starting a new line. They bought the uh uh the remains of the Sharpenburger, the old Sharpenburger chocolate line, uh, and they're gonna be making some new chocolate.
+
+[14:09] What's interesting about what they're doing is that uh basically the name pre Prieto is uh the family name of the one of the the founders of the company, uh uh Dan Preston, and his family's done uh cacao plantation, sugar plantation for a long time uh in the Dominican Republic, and so they're actually gonna have complete vertical integration. They can play with breeding, selective breeding, they can play with um they can play with different fermentation techniques, um, you know, and they basically can control it from from soup to nuts, which is pretty interesting. It's very rare. And so they're gonna launch in January, so we'll see kind of what that complete control and vertical integration can bring. Because they're gonna bring uh they're gonna do, I think, mainly uh liqueurs and and chocolate, bar chocolate.
+
+[14:51] So we'll see how that uh pans out. But having visited their setup, it's a very, very good setup, and they're gonna be using some kind of new equipment um and custom built equipment. Uh Dan actually used to build some equipment for chocolate makers. In fact, he built some parts for the Mast Brothers line. Uh so anyway, so that should be that should be interesting.
+
+[15:08] Um but you know, back to selecting your beans, I mean the the main problem is uh uh you know, when you're making your own chocolate, is uh crap in crap out. You know what I mean? And so you you need to get a hold of some good quality nibs to do your work. And um the the final product that you make in chocolate is very dependent and finicky, depending on every little aspect of what you do can uh can affect it. So it's it's uh a field well worth uh investigation and study, and uh Gabe, I wish you luck in your uh exploits.
+
+[15:40] Anyway, with that, I think we go to our first commercial break. Please remember to call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feel, man? I feel all right.
+
+[15:56] I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey Dam! Sure getting down. Look in.
+
+[16:06] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Take them up, Brad.
+
+[16:23] We gotta take you high. Alright. You wanna do it again? Yeah, let's go on back. We gotta take you high.
+
+[16:45] Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow about two corpses. Let's go and do that within it.
+
+[16:53] Now alright. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get it take us higher. Yeah. Take us higher.
+
+[17:04] Brad! Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call in your cooking questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh coming to you live for another, I don't know, what, half hour or so?
+
+[17:30] Um all right, let's go to some email questions. So, Brian uh writes in from New Zealand uh and says he just made a batch of lemon cello and added his sugar syrup to the infused alcohol cold so it stayed clear. Uh, uh and then it you and then basically let me go into this and this here's the question. Uh the question is when you make limoncello, lemoncello is basically you soak uh lemon uh peel or zest in uh alcohol, sometimes high proof alcohol, sometimes not, until the flavor has gone in, then afterwards you add uh sugar. You strain and add sugar, right?
+
+[18:03] Basic lemon cello. I don't actually drink it, so I don't know a lot from first hand experience, but that's that's what lemoncello is. Uh many of the recipes on the internet tell you that if you add sugar to uh sugar, you know, the sugar syrup sugar solution to your lemon cello when the sugar solution is still warm or hot, that it will turn cloudy. Uh whereas if you add it when it's cold, uh it will not. And then um the the question is, uh I I don't know if that's personally true, but everyone says it, so I'm sure that it must have some truth.
+
+[18:31] And then the question is, is there any uh is there any taste difference? Is it gonna be any taste difference? Is it gonna have any impact on texture, aroma, flavor, etc.? That's that's uh Brian's question. Now I since I don't make lemon cello, I haven't had uh firsthand experience, but it's very interesting to me that limoncello would turn cloudy um w when you add warm stuff as opposed to when you add cold stuff.
+
+[18:56] Now um I I did some preliminary research in the scientific literature this morning on this problem and I was not able to find anything, unfortunately. I guess it hasn't really been studied. Usually when liquor turns cloudy, the reason liquor turns cloudy when you dilute it, is because there are oils that are uh soluble in uh high proof alcohol, but when the when the proof has been diluted, right? When the alcohol level goes down, all of a sudden those oils are no longer uh soluble and they and they precipitate out of solution into oil droplets and they become cloudy, right? This is known as the uzo effect.
+
+[19:26] So if you take uzo, sambuka, any one of these kind of uh usually pheny-based things that are high in uh in oils and you dilute them or or you know at um what's it called? Absinthe, uh, it will it will go white, cloudy. Um also uh we have this that happened a lot when I do distillation work, I do distillation at low temperature, we bring a lot of oils over, and those oils often will cloud our beverages when we dilute them or when we chill them. Usually it's when you chill something that it goes cloudy because all of a sudden uh chilling it reduces the uh solubility of the oil, and also diluting it reduces solubility of the oil, right? Now, here's my question, and you'll have to write back and and uh and answer this.
+
+[20:08] Uh my guess would be that this this is the only thing I could think of that would make it cloudy, is that oils would suddenly become not soluble. Now, if you were to add uh if you were to add um sugar syrup when everything is cold, let's say it was cold and clear and you add it, my guess is it would go cloudy right away, but maybe the oil droplets you form are big enough that they settle out. I've heard people say that uh when it becomes cloudy like that and stays cloudy, that it's bitter. That would mean that the oils stay in. So if if what's actually happening is you add the cold syrup and it forms oil droplets right away that are large enough that the oil droplets can coalesce, and then you can get them off of the product and have them go clear again.
+
+[20:48] Because I've had that happen with liquor too. I've had liquor that had so much oil, went so cloudy on me that uh after a period of a couple of days it settles out and it's clear because the oil separates out. And the the lemon oil would have a bitterness. So it so basically my my theory, and this is completely not backed up because I've never done it, is that if you it it if this phenomenon is true, perhaps what's happening when you add um warm uh when you add warm syrup, right, it doesn't actually cloud as much as it would if you added cold syrup, but that those droplets are smaller and thus more stable. There's therefore there'd be more lemon oil in it, and therefore it might be more bitter, which is what people report on the internet.
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+[21:27] Uh whereas if it's cold, the droplets formed are larger and then might coalesce and get out of the beverage uh as it sits for several days before before you've finished bottling it. But I don't know, and I've never run the test, and I would welcome anyone to either call in who's done this and talk to me about it, or or else write into the blog or the forums because it's uh it's an interesting subject. Usually the exact opposite happens, and cold things cloud up or uh uh when you dilute them more than warm ones do. So it's definitely an interesting question. I wish I had more of a finished answer.
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+[22:00] Um Derek from San Francisco writes in, and uh this this might end up being a long one, this might go over the over the break, but he he read it, and the stash is like, oh geez. I've read a number of articles and recipes, usually general source chicken or sow, whatever. What do you think? Sour so? I thought it was salad.
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+[22:18] Okay, well, I'm gonna defer to Nastash on this one. Uh about the velveting technique for cooking meat, but none has given a reasonable scientific explanation for how it works. How does velveting improved improve meat's texture? Uh, which are the typical ingredients, cornstitch, uh, cornstarch, eggs, uh, egg white wine, etc. play a significant role.
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+[22:35] Uh, thanks in advance, Derek. Okay. Uh well, uh, I don't I don't cook this way, but I did do a lot of re research on this one. It's uh it's very interesting. Um, velveting is the procedure whereby you usually take small chunks of meat, uh, you uh marinate them for a time in an egg white uh the main thing that's always there is egg white, and then usually also cornstarch.
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+[22:57] Uh and uh sometimes wine, uh salt is usually uh always present. Some people add a pinch of baking soda as well, and some people do a premarination in baking soda before they add it to the velveting mixture, the uh the egg white mixture. And the claim is that it produces a more tender uh result. If you look uh basically after you do your marination in that egg white you know gunk, you then uh take it and um either drag it through hot oil to set the egg white on the outside, or else through boiling water to set the egg white on the outside, and then proceed to stir-fry the recipe as normal, right? A couple of things are always true in these recipes.
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+[23:34] One, the pieces are small, which means that marination effect is going to be able to penetrate quickly through the whole thing. Okay. Uh that's that's the the the primary the primary thing that's true. Now, um why does this work? What the hell's going on?
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+[23:47] Uh if you look at some of the videos on the web, people say that the egg white is sealing in the juices when you search uh I have uh extreme doubts as to this. I mean, one of Harold McGee's uh you know big uh initial proofs uh in uh on food and cooking, the original one, is uh that uh you know searing does not in fact seal in the juices because you can see a whole crap load of sizzle in the pan and the sizzle is coming from evaporating water uh and the water is coming from you guessed it, the meat. Now uh having seen uh pictures of these uh chicken pieces stir-frying that have been velveted, I can tell you that there is a lot there's a crap ton of moisture escaping from those things. Now, uh the egg white coating could pr uh protect somewhat uh that you would more preferentially get the water out of the egg white first before it makes it to the chicken or whatever, thereby um you know producing less um less moisture loss inside of the meat, uh just like a batter would. Um in which case, yes, it is protecting the the meat from losing its moisture.
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+[24:44] However, uh there are a couple of other things that are going on as well that are very interesting. Um if you add baking soda, uh baking soda is alkaline, and baking soda can actually uh tenderize meat, and what we'll talk I'll talk more about baking soda uh in a minute in general, alkaline conditions in general. But um egg white is also alkaline. In fact, what's interesting is is that if you go to a uh Chinese market here in the US, eggs are often not refrigerated. Uh eggs as they age uh in a non-refrigerated environment don't necessarily become more dangerous, but they do become more alkaline.
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+[25:20] So uh an egg an egg white that starts off in the mid-sevens, pH wise, by the time it's kind of uh you know aged and become older, can have a pH upwards of uh in the nines, very alkaline, right? And so perhaps a soak in uh a very alkaline egg white would have tenderizing effect, similar to the effect that uh uh a baking soda rub uh can have, because when you lower the the pH, you're you're basically increasing uh the rate of kind of protein and uh collagen breakdown. So this could be an additional tenderizing effect. That would be offset by any sort of wine that you're adding. So any sort of wine would have acidity, would tend to counteract uh any tenderizing effect from the baking soda.
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+[26:00] So I don't know how those two things or for the baking soda or from the egg white, so I don't know how those two things would necessarily interact. The other key component in this is the salt. So whenever you add salt to uh a meat, you are basically increasing its water holding capacity. So even though you think of salt as something that dehydrates something over time, uh when you are adding salt to meat, you uh you're changing the amount of water that that protein can hold on to. So you're actually uh increasing the amount of water that it holds on to.
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+[26:29] So there are a bunch of possible effects here. And I don't know where, because again, I searched the you know before, like I searched scientific literature for limoncello, try to search the scientific literature for velveting. It just did there's nothing there. So I searched uh on bicarbonate solutions and tenderization, and there's a there's a lot of anecdotal evidence on uh bicarbonate solutions, sodium bicarbonate as baking soda, by the way. Uh so there's a lot of anecdotal evidence on that, and people who've done tests that marination and bicarbonate solutions causes tenderized meat via two different mechanisms, actually.
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+[27:01] One, straight tenderization, uh presumably because of the alkaline nature and also the uh ionic you know character that it's changing the water holding capacity of the proteins. But also uh uh when uh baking soda is heated, it decomposes, forms uh carbon dioxide gas, and so makes a porous structure in the meat and actually creates a porosity in the meat that can be interpreted as tenderness. Those are two different um two different things that could be going on. Egg white perhaps is having some of a similar effect in terms of uh of tenderizing because it can be alkaline. Um salt would tend to tenderize.
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+[27:32] I don't know where the wine would fit in, and thirdly, just straight in robing in a uh protein mixture of uh egg white would help to protect the uh the chicken from uh overcooking. A third thing that would would be happening, I mean a fourth or fifth, who knows how many I've done. Uh another thing that might be happening is alkaline things brown faster. So uh when you have something that's uh alkaline, in fact, there's a people who do studies on adding a little bit uh in Holland, they did it in Netherlands, they did a study where they added baking soda to ground meat, and they found that it browned a lot faster because alkaline conditions uh increase browning rates, right? So, for instance, you take a pretzel.
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+[28:09] Pretzels are boiled in uh either baking soda or lye, alkaline conditions before they're baked, and that's why they have that really dark, dark color and also that characteristic pretzel taste. If you cook uh cook a pretzel without boiling it in alkaline conditions, it doesn't taste like a pretzel. It tastes like mm you know like a bagel or something that's hard, you know. So you definitely need that alkaline condition to get that really rapid browning. Um I tend to hate it when it's applied to meat.
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+[28:34] We ran a bunch of tests when uh you know when Harold McGee comes into his lecture at the school, we do a bunch of tests where we cook baking so uh we put baking soda into ground meat, and yeah, it browned fast, but it tasted god awful. I mean terrible. Did you taste that one, Nastasha? Terrible. Uh very small amounts of it added to um added to onions can radically change the browning characteristics of onions, make them brown very quickly.
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+[28:58] It and you know, made them actually lose more water too. Is very is very interesting. So these alkaline shifts in alkaline uh alkalinity really have a huge effect on proteins and how they brown. Similarly, when you're making noodles, uh a lot of uh a lot of uh you know, Asian noodle recipes will use something called can sue, which is basically an alkaline uh uh additive, and it and it makes the gluten more stretchy and also makes the noodles uh yellow because you're basically shifting um the functionality of the of the gluten proteins by uh shifting the pH towards more alkaline conditions. Um, uh long story long and long story confusing is that uh you know the alkaline uh egg white might be making it brown faster.
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+[29:40] It might also be um it might also be tenderizing. If it makes it brown faster, then you think it's done faster, meaning uh you're not gonna overcook it as much. So that could be another reason why perhaps the meat is more tender when it's when it's cooked this way. So it's a uh a very complicated subject. I don't think it's been adequately studied.
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+[29:57] I don't uh I haven't done any uh side-by-side taste tests, so it's hard for me to say for certain uh what's going on. But these are my uh best and worst guesses at at what what's happening. Uh anyway, so that brings us to our second break. Uh call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
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+[30:18] Cooking issues. I want to get on your good food. I got the eat on the food food. Going down through the three, and let all hang out. I wear some beef button, but let it all hang out.
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+[30:51] Where people can find the hand. And then you hear the music. Do it with the good foot. Say the whole battery, all get together, all these tracks, and they put it. That's on my favorite.
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+[31:34] Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh Dave Arnold and Nastasha Lopez here. Today's Cooking Issues brought to you by the Barter House and uh their fine wine from uh Uruguay. Booza Booza with temporary and tanat grapes, which we're enjoying right now. Um we're boozing on booze.
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+[31:53] Okay, so uh we have another. Oh, by the way, you still have a couple minutes to call in your questions, and I know you want to, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And uh a little programming note, next week we won't be coming to you live from Tuesday. We're gonna try and pre-record.
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+[32:12] We'll put on the blog when we're gonna do it in case you want to call in. But next week I'll be teaching uh sous vide and low temperature cooking with Nils at the French Culinary Institute. Uh it's actually I like that I like the class a lot. It's a good class. We're already we're already full for all of you, Sous vide nuts, so you'll have to sign up for the next the next one.
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+[32:30] But it's an interesting class. We do, you know, uh a billion different tastings, and it's uh it's pretty hardcore, but it's uh it's a lot of fun. And I actually learn something every time I teach it because we get to we get to you know uh taste together with a group of uh seventeen, you know, people and the the people who take the class are usually pretty hardcore. So I I end up always learning a lot, even myself. Anyway, um okay.
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+[32:53] Uh let me see this is b uh uh sorry. Okay. Uh we have a Swedish listener uh who you know can't call in. I guess the time difference is too great for him. And uh he says that uh I assume it's a him.
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+[33:04] Let me see. Hans, yes. Uh uh, he has heard it's possible to make frozen slushies um with a soda siphon. He's interested specifically in the possibility of a frozen mojito. Uh do you have any experience with that?
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+[33:17] He says he's tried it, but he hasn't gotten good results. They were nice and bubbly, um, but no freezing. Okay. Um and he says he hasn't tried it with a soda siphon yet, just with a cream whipper. Okay, cream whipper, by the way, we're talking about is a whipped cream maker that you charge with nitrous oxide, and a siphon is basically a soda siphon is one that's meant to operate to make to make seltzer.
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+[33:39] Now, um I don't think it should make a difference whether you use uh nitrous oxide or CO2 because both have relatively the same weight and similar solubilities in water. So I don't think it's going to make a difference which gas you use. So the question is do the mechanisms of the two uh are they different? Now this uh harks back to something we talked about last week, actually, which is uh the idea of super freezing. We talked a little bit about super freezing.
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+[34:00] Was it last week, Nastasha? Super freezing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh and maybe that's why Hans wrote in the the question.
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+[34:06] Um here are some issues. One, I don't think you can do it with a mojito because mojito has uh the crushed up um uh mint in it, and so that's going to provide a nucleation site, so you're not gonna get very much supercooling. The way that this slushy thing, if it works, which I have never done it before, uh if it works, here's how it works. You uh put a drink into a clean vessel. It's clean, right?
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+[34:27] The drink itself is clean, clear, doesn't have any cloudiness in it, right? So lime juice might be a problem. I'm not sure, right? Uh you might want to you might want to keep the lime juice separate, you know, chill your lime juice down and then take the frozen drink with everything but the lime juice and and and slush it, because the lime juice I think is going to cause a problem. You want to chill it below the temperature at which it freezes, right?
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+[34:51] And then uh you want to initiate ice nucleation so that it forms crystals. It's a technique called super freezing. You can look it up on YouTube and you can see uh you know super super supercooling, rather. You can look up supercooling and freezing, and this works. So, one, your lime juice is gonna be a problem.
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+[35:07] Put your lime juice uh last after it's basically been slushed out. Um, your the advantage of using the siphon is that when you are um when you charge it with gas the gas is actually lowering the freezing point of your of your mixture okay so it allows you to supercool it uh even more because what happens is when you when you spray it out you're doing two things one you're introducing a bunch of nucleation sites because it's gonna bubble and the bubble provides ice nucleation sites and you're gonna get your crystal growth you're also as the stuff foams out of it you are um you are releasing gas and as it releases gas the freezing point goes up and it should crystallize faster so you win two times so here's what I would do I'm not guaranteeing this is gonna work because I haven't tried it but I would mix your drink with water and by the way you're gonna want uh uh assuming you want the same sort of dilution that a daiquiri has uh the post that we're gonna hopefully put up in a day or two on cooking issues part two of our of our mega cocktail post part one went up on Thursday I think part two is going to go up probably tomorrow um you know it turns out that shaking drinks are quite dilute more dilute than you'd think more in the range of like 16% alcohol in that range so you're gonna want to uh dilute it down to finish right except for you know hope you know keep in mind that the lime juice is gonna dilute it more omit the lime juice just water sugar syrup and booze right uh any salt if you want charge it with uh with nitrous put it in your freezer right uh that mixture should freeze uh somewhere in the vicinity of like minus eight, ten, minus, no, like minus ten, somewhere in that, somewhere minus Celsius. I have to look it up exactly, but somewhere in that region, so you should super cool it down. Your freezer should be fine. You're gonna have to experiment with it a little bit.
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+[36:57] Then immediately turn your siphon upside, you know, your cre whipped cream thing upside down, you know, like out. You want to get rid of as much gas as possible and also um, you know, and also get it into your cup as fast as possible, and with any luck, you will be able to get some uh foaming. Another thing you could do is just unscrew the lid and let it de-aerate like that, and then you should be able to get some. Pour it out into a uh in into a juice, stir in your lime juice, done. Done.
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+[37:27] If it works, if it works, and there's there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that she's gonna work. Okay. So uh uh on the subject of cocktails, uh, I did an interesting study over the weekend, Nastasha, and in uh in preface for the uh for the post that we're working on. Um shaken and stirred drinks, and we've mentioned this a bunch of times, but stake shaken and stirred drinks are different, right? So one of the differences between a shaken drink and a stirred drink is stirred drinks are typically less diluted than than shaken drinks, right?
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+[37:55] Typically a stirred drink is gonna have a much lower amount of water added to it than it than a shaking drink is. Uh two, shaking drinks are aerated more because they're shaken, right? And back in the day, I used to think it was you know malarkey that uh that all that aeration would stay. I thought it was a very transient effect, but through several blind tastes that we've done, I've been proven wrong, as is often the case. And uh shaking drinks are in fact different on a textural basis from stirred drinks, as well as being uh more diluted.
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+[38:24] Now the question is then if you're having a party, how are you gonna make uh shaking drinks for everyone if you want to do pre-if you want to pre-dilute the batch? For instance, you're gonna run out of ice, you don't feel like having your ice around, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't want to shake live because it's a pain in the ass, etc. I mean, but etc. etc.
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+[38:40] etc. Uh, and in the school, we tested uh a couple of different things. One, we just uh served a chilled shaken drink, right? That we had a chilled drink that was diluted the same amount as a shaken drink, and that um uh you know didn't taste like a shaken drink. We uh could be tasted that side by side with a shaking drink, and also one that we'd put in a blender.
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+[39:00] The blender didn't work because the bubbles were too big, it was weird. And then we also chilled one with liquid nitrogen. And liquid nitrogen, it turns out, as it as it cools, with the advantage here is you can use warm drink as well. As it cools, it adds little bubbles because the nitrogen's boiling off, and that turns out to be very close to shaken drink. Uh, I realize that most of you out there don't have liquid nitrogen.
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+[39:20] So here's the good news. I ran another test over the weekend where we took the chilled drink, we took a chilled drink straight out of the freezer, we diluted it uh as much as you would for a uh a um shake and drink, and just tune into our website in a couple days to find out what that answer is because it's too complicated to explain over the over the radio, it wouldn't make any damn sense anyway. But uh look it up on our blog. But here's the good news. Dilute the drink, put it in your freezer, don't let it freeze, put it in your freezer, and then um just put it into a cocktail shaker without ice and just shake it before you pour it out.
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+[39:53] That's it. And you can get most of the stuff back. So I ran a test over the weekend where we took uh chilled diluted cocktail, a fresh shaken cocktail, and then a chilled diluted cocktail that we shook just in a quart container, and a chilled uh a chilled diluted cocktail that I shook in a quart container with a bunch of uh I have a bunch of strainers, uh Hawthorne uh strainers, um, you know, the the ones with the spring, the cocktail strainers with the spring. I ripped all the springs off and threw them into the core container. This is a trick I learned from Audrey Saunders, who was testing this to aerate her egg white drinks, you know, a number of years ago.
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+[40:28] Anyway, so and I did a one with uh one with the springs in a core container and just shook the heck out of them for a couple of seconds and then poured them out. And blind, the shaken, fresh shaken drink was very similar to the ones that were shaken uh just in a core container, uh straight from the freezer, and ones that were uh shaken in a core container with uh springs straight from the freezer. Uh the shaking drink was a little bit different uh and uh was preferred by some people, but the other two are very, very close approximation. So if you pre-dilute your drinks, store them in core containers in the freezer, you know, take it a core container is uh it's what you get from like a takeout joint. You know, we have them everywhere at the school, but it's what you get takeout joint.
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+[41:08] Store your drinks in the core container, uh, you know, make sure there's a lot of air left in it, and then as they're ready, just pull them out of your freezer, shacka shaka, shaka, shaka, shaka, shack. So what drink did you make and how long did you keep it in your freezer for before you took it out? Uh I kept it in there for like an hour, and uh it was probably a little colder. I was trying to make it exactly as cold as a shaken drink. If I let it sit there longer, it would have gotten a little bit colder.
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+[41:31] Um I was making um what was it making? I was making uh daiquiris, straight daiquires. And the um and I used the same exact mix, so I pre-mixed everything, held some aside and shook one live, and then the other ones I shook um, you know, I I I pre-shook. I actually pre-shook them traditionally and then let them sit for uh you know for a while to get rid of all the texture from shaking and then froze them down. The reason I did that was uh I wanted to make sure that they were diluted exactly the same amount as the fresh, fresh uh frozen guy.
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+[42:04] Um what was interesting is some people preferred the one that was in the freezer. They preferred it because it had it was more intense, uh, because it didn't have the air bubbles in, and the one with the springs was actually the most aerated, and therefore some people liked it the least because it was the the least intense. My mom oh, it wasn't uh Dacri, sorry, it was whiskey sours. My mom, who doesn't like whiskey, was that happened to be my house at the time, she liked that one best because it tasted the least like whiskey. It was well or actually no, she liked the one without the springs, which wasn't the most airy because everyone said that that one tasted sweeter, which is bizarre.
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+[42:39] Just because it show how complicated the cocktail is. Uh, my stepfather who's booze hound and w wine nut, an amazing palette. I've seen him pick wines blind out of, you know, uh mean a m you you'll walk up to him with a wine and a tinfoil wrapper and you know, pour it and he'll be like, Yeah, that's blah, blah, blah. Me's mean you can't argue with the man's palate. You can argue with a lot about uh about uh Gerard, but not his palate.
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+[43:00] Um so you know, he he actually preferred the one that uh w was allowed to sit in the freezer because he I guess it was denser. He preferred it more. Uh and he he preferred the one that had the most air in it least. Um We have a collar. We have a collar.
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+[43:15] Oh, at the last under the wire, collar comes in under the water. Caller on the air. Hi, this is Garrett. Um I'm calling because I have a question about carbonating cocktails. Okay.
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+[43:27] I've seen the systems they have, like the Perlini system, but I wanted to know just how to do it with a regular soda siphon and uh if you've had any experience with carbonating cocktails, and uh yeah, just your ideas about it. I have had a lot of experience carbonating with cocktails. Um I tend to carbonate cocktails with uh 20 pound CO2 tanks and um and uh ball lock fittings, which is like you know, so old soda fittings that home brewers use. And for a list of the stuff, it doesn't cost that much to get that system actually. That's what I've been I've been doing that for a long, long time.
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+[44:04] Um there's on our forums you can look up a list for that. Now, carbonating with it with a siphon, here's the problem with it. I've done a I've done it. I wouldn't use a soda siphon, I'd use a cream whipper for it. Um there also ISI is introducing a new system called the soda stream.
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+[44:19] Uh not the soda stream, oh geez, that's a different company, but soda something. Sparkle, soda sparkle, sparkle and shimmer or something. Anyway. But um, here's what I would do. The pro the main problem with any of these systems is you can't get rid of the air space above the drink.
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+[44:34] Air is the enemy of carbonation. So when you uh have that head space with air and you're and you're shaking it, it does two things. It it it decreases um the places where CO2 can make it into your drink, and also when you un when you uncap it, they're not that soluble and they form bubbles and they they foam out. So if you have if you can afford it, you're gonna need to use two chargers to charge it, right? One, you want to do like a quick shake out with it, and then uh take your whipper.
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+[45:03] This is why I say use a whipper, right? Not the soda siphon, unless you have a soda siphon. If you have a soda siphon, turn it upside down when you're doing this. So to shake it a couple of times, uh you're trying to get a little bit of CO2 in, and it's gonna get rid of the nucleation sites in your in your in your drink and also get rid of the air, and then immediately vent out all of that gas. And so what's happening now is you're getting rid of the air and the oxygen and all the nasty stuff that's the enemy of carbonation, and you're getting rid of some of the nucleation sites that are in your drink.
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+[45:29] Then you want to add your second, make sure it's ice cold. In fact, if you have a couple of ice cubes in it, it's even better because you want it really, really cold. Then you put your second charger in, and then you shake it for carbonation, right? Then you let it sit for a couple of minutes to settle out. Then you slowly vent it, open it and pour out the drink, and you can get get good results.
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+[45:48] I would start with uh things that carbonate well I tend not to like carbonated rum drinks that I carbonate for some reason. That's personal preference. I know some people that like a carbonated daiquiry. I tend not to like things carbonated like Manhattan's but I don't like the really bitters when they're carbonated. But you know I carbonate a lot of gin drinks a lot of gin drinks uh carbonate um you know carb carbonate I like bubbles in almost everything you know what I mean but just a couple a couple of drinks that that I don't like um the other issue with uh the with the siphon is that uh you only get these seven gram seven or eight gram increments of CO2 and really you want to fine-tune the amount of bubbles that you're putting into a drink so people don't notice it as much in cocktails because they're not used to tasting for for specific flavors in cocktails as much as they are in wine but if you carbonate wine wine is extremely sensitive to the amount of CO2 that you put into it such that the difference between um I I use pressure because I'm using a tank so the difference in using like 30 uh 35 PSI versus 40 psi is the difference between delicious and you blast the fruit out of it and accentuate the oak too much right so the that that's my other gripe with using the the cartridges is that they don't have the fine control over the amount of bubbles present that you would get if you had a tank.
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+[47:06] The tank system's really easy actually like you know I have like I say I'm a little bit nutty I have it in my house but you know it's uh it's not actually that nutty like you know I live in the city in a tiny apartment with two kids. You know what I mean? Like on the on the third floor. Uh but you should definitely experiment. Uh you can definitely experiment using a cream whipper or or a siphon to start.
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+[47:25] How would you how would you vent the gas with the siphon? Because you would vent out the liquid, wouldn't you? Turn it upside down. Turn it upside down. Oh, and then the gas would come out without the liquid coming out if you turn it upside down?
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+[47:36] Exactly. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, but I how much uh how much the system that you have, how much is that? How much of a problem money wise?
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+[47:45] It's not. And here's here's the thing, right? I'm gonna offend my good friends at uh at uh EC, but uh there's a a company out of uh Guntersville, Alabama called Mark Powers, and uh they they sell soda equipment and the stuff there is so cheap, you can get like a 20-pound CO2 tank empty for like ninety dollars and a regulator for like thirty dollars, the hosing's like thirteen cents a foot, and the connectors, you know, they're like you can get the whole thing, including the carbonator caps, which you have to order from a homebrew supply, uh, and then you use soda bottles, you get the whole thing for you know, under under like one thirty, one fifty in that range. You go to your I don't know where you live, but you go to your local welding supply shop, and then you just unfortunately this is like kills people. You hand them your new tank and they hand you like an old beat up tank, but it's full of CO2.
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+[48:36] That's like an uh uh like an $18 problem. But one tank of CO2 uh will do two to four hundred gallons of drink. Okay. Now one thing you have to remember, you everything has to be cold when you're doing it, and if you want to be consistent, you want it to always be the same amount of cold. And here's the other thing that a lot of people don't think about.
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+[48:55] Water, uh alcohol is actually uh CO2 is more soluble in alcohol than water. So in order to get the same effect of bubbles in in an alcohol drink, you need to add more CO2 than you would in water. Okay? So the higher the alcohol content, the more you need to add. So I happen to like carbonated Negronies, right?
+
+[49:13] And so uh carbonated Negroni is a high proof, so you need to add a lot more pressure to a Negroni than you would to uh a wine, right? That's why sake typically, if you're gonna carbonate sake, you carbonate sake at a higher alcohol, uh higher pressure than you would carbonate like a white wine, which typically has a lower alcohol content. So you have to scale the pressure to the alcohol content of your drink. So the higher the proof, the higher the pressure, basically. Bingo, for the same flavor, yeah.
+
+[49:39] For the same effect of carbonation on your tongue, yeah. All right, well, thank you. Alright, well, good good luck. You're entering you're entering one of the most rewarding things in the world, bubbles. Bubbles, bubbles, bubbles.
+
+[49:51] All right, thanks for calling in, and that was cooking issues for this week. Uh we won't be live next week, but we will figure something out for you. And thanks to Barter House and Booza. Vicious Vish. Oh, you did me on this corner.
+
+[50:16] And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. Between a minute's late. You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:12] Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, coming to you today with Nastasha Lopez, the Cooking Issues Hammer. We are not live today. We are pre-recording this because Tuesday, when we're normally uh broadcasting, I will be teaching Sous vide and low temperature cooking class at the French Culinary Institute. A fine class.
+
+[0:34] This one's full, unfortunately, so you can't uh sign up for it anymore. But uh you can sign up for the next one. Um so you can't call in live, but I'm still gonna give you the number so you can write it down for your records. The number to call in to the studio here is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:54] The number to call in to Cooking Issues, the show where we answer all of your cooking issues. Um, a couple of you know notes here. You might hear some music in the background, and that's because today, Sunday is the Bushwick block party, right? Uh Bushwick, Brooklyn, for those of you that don't, you know, know is kind of like what Hipster's Paradise? What do you say?
+
+[1:15] History Paradise? Yeah. So the whole block was shut down and Robert's Pizza, which hosts the Heritage Radio Network, is uh hosting this block party, and so it's kind of pandemonium outside of the studio right now. Uh by the way, the studio, for those of you that don't know, the studio here is actually, I think uh like a a container or some sort of something. I swear to God, that's been dropped into the middle of Brooklyn and they put a garden on top of it and there's kind of a window where we can, you know, view view Brooklyn out of this window.
+
+[1:39] Is that pretty much accurate? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Uh okay.
+
+[1:43] Uh couple uh right? Yeah, anyway. A couple other announcements before we get to the email questions that uh have come in. There's a lot of events coming up uh with us in the next uh month or so. So I'm just gonna list some of them.
+
+[1:55] Uh some of them are gonna require us to pre-record again, some aren't. Uh I think the the next thing that's gonna come up is uh Starchefs. Uh Starchefs uh you go to Starchefs.com. Nils and I are doing uh a bunch of events there. We have a uh a mixology demonstration and we're doing some couple of cocktails.
+
+[2:11] That's coming up the week of uh September 20th, so you want it might want to stop by and see us there. Um then uh Heritage Uh Radio is having uh a big fundraising barbecue. It's called the uh Heritage Radio Party, the Heritage Party, and it's on set uh Saturday, September 25th. It's here at Roberta's in Brooklyn. It's uh $100 a crack to uh attend, $100 per person.
+
+[2:35] Uh we will be making some drinks, probably with liquid nitrogen. What else? We decided what we're gonna do. It's gonna be Maker's Mark. Yeah.
+
+[2:40] Right? Have we decided what kind of fruit we're gonna use? I thought it was peaches. Well it depends on what well, okay, here's what's gonna happen. We're gonna get makersmark, we're gonna find whatever the most delicious fruit to add to Maker's Mark at that particular moment is.
+
+[2:52] We're gonna clarify it in a centrifuge, and then we're gonna we're gonna add liquid nitrogen to it, hopefully, on site here, hopefully liquid nitrogen if we can get it delivered here, and uh serve you some delicious cocktails. So uh you're gonna want to call in to 718-389-8985. That's 718-389-0985 to uh RSVP for that, or uh email info at heritage radio.com. Uh then uh right. Then uh on October 4th, uh we're gonna No, wait, there's the New York Culinary Experience.
+
+[3:25] Oh, but that's something that's sold out already. Well, anyway, assuming it's not sold out, you can come see Nills and I do uh cocktail demonstration. Uh what when is that one, Nastashi? October 2nd. October 2nd at the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[3:37] Uh seating is extremely limited. I don't know how much uh that guy costs. Then uh we have the um Berlin Bar Show on October 4th, where I'm gonna be doing uh a recap with Evan Clem of the science of shaking, science of stirring in Berlin. It's actually the first time I've ever gone to Berlin. Uh luckily for me, uh I I was supposed to go for four days and have kind of a mellow time, fly in, have a day to recompress, but uh, you know, it's something came up, and so I had to switch my flight, and I'm literally flying in on the red eye, landing at six and giving a talk at twelve.
+
+[4:10] So I don't sleep on airplanes, so I'm if you come if you live in Berlin and you come see us in Berlin, expect to see someone, you know, that may or may not have their hair slicked back with their own feces. We're not sure. We'll see. We'll see what we can do there. Uh I'm just kidding.
+
+[4:27] Um you know, anyway. Uh then uh on October 16th, you can come see us at the London Bar Show where we're going to be doing a presentation on uh roto vapping uh liquors. It's being sponsored by Oxley Gen, correct? Yes. Whoo.
+
+[4:44] All right. So uh that with our bookkeeping out of the way, uh, I guess right, we can get to some questions? Yes. Okay, let's get to some questions. Uh Jacob Hartleieb said, uh, thank you for the show, love listening to it.
+
+[4:57] Thank you, Jacob. Uh, although he writes his name once as Jacob, and another one as uh my friend of mine has the same name, Yacoubs. I'm not sure which one. I don't know. Anyway, I'm not sure.
+
+[5:06] He lives in Cooks in Oklahoma. Uh and a trend he's noticed among chefs is using wild ingredients, right? Uh not farm to table, he says, more like wild, find it yourself ingredients, uh such as like the dunoma or like Michelle Bra does, or Moogaritz. And he's fascinated with this style of cooking and is pretty sure it's been around for a long time. So he wants to know the following.
+
+[5:24] Is there a book, blog, or guide on wild herbs, plants, trees, berries, etc. that are edible, and uh, you know, what can guide you to do that? All right. Um so uh this is uh a question that is close to my heart. I unfortunately don't know any blogs to do it, but you know, uh I the only reason I like to travel uh to places that are near the wilderness uh is so that I can gather wild food when I'm there.
+
+[5:49] For instance, uh when I go to the Grand Canyon, uh I'm I'm I don't really care that much about the the actual Grand Canyon, it's like what kind of you know what can grow around there. I mean the this is this is a little piece of me. You'll know me a little better uh if you understand this. Like once you see the Grand Canyon, I'm like, yeah, that's beautiful. It is, it's beautiful, right?
+
+[6:07] But I mean, come on. Right? I've seen one hole, you've seen the other one. Right. Now, food is a different matter altogether.
+
+[6:12] Food you can keep eating all the time, right? No? Right? When I go to the beach, all I care about is the stuff that grows along the seashore and the stuff that I can get in the water at the seashore. That's basically it, because I detest sand and sun, right?
+
+[6:24] Right. When I go to forests, I want to know what grows there. Anyway, so this is a subject that I like a lot. Um, and whenever I'm going to travel someplace new and gonna be, you know, outside in nature, I try to get a guidebook that helps me. The the problem is is that what you're gonna particularly look for in an area really depends on where you live.
+
+[6:42] Uh so uh I think a good first starting point, even though they're dated, right? The the best writing on wild food that I have ever read is by a guy named Yule Gibbons. Uh I don't forget how to spell Yule. I I can't spell out loud, I don't have a piece of paper on me. But uh Yule Yule Gibbons, uh his two most famous books are Stalking the Wild Asparagus and Stalking the Wild Scallop.
+
+[7:03] And they're written probably late 60s, somewhere in that, late 60s, early 70s, somewhere in that range. And uh they are fantastic books. Now, again, they're a little bit dated, but he was a guy, and all he really liked to do was go out and uh forage for wild foods, talking, you know, animals, uh, you know, like sea creatures. He never wrote any books on hunting. Uh there is a book on how to illegally poach animals if you're interested in that, but you can't really serve those things in a restaurant.
+
+[7:29] Uh but you know, he has in-depth uh books on on searching certain things. Now he uh spent a lot of it, he spent time all over the country, which is why his books are good. So he has a little bit of something for everyone, no matter where you live in the US. Uh, but he a lot of his knowledge centers around uh Pennsylvania where he lived. He did a lot of work up in Maine, uh, he did a lot of work in on the West Coast in California.
+
+[7:49] And so he has a lot of uh, you know, he has a lot of really interesting um interesting things, and he's got a really good perspective. So if you haven't ever read any book on foraging, I would go immediately buy those books on Bookfinder. They're basically free. No one cares about them. Uh I would get Stalking the Wild asparagus and stalking the wild scallop.
+
+[8:07] Now, if you're interested in something specific like mushrooms, right? Uh I you know, I have a bunch of guidebooks on uh mushrooms, and you know, I guess uh I don't remember off the top of my head which the best ones are, but uh if you go to Paul Stamitz's website, he's uh out on the West Coast, I think in um I forget whether he's in Washington or or in uh Oregon, but he's uh you know one of the worldwide authorities on fungus. I would not go collecting mushrooms for the first time by yourself. I would find any one of the local mycological societies in your area, they usually sponsor tours where you can go learn how to properly gather mushrooms in your area without getting poisoned, right? It's important not to get poisoned.
+
+[8:46] Uh the same thing goes true with plants. So when you get beginners' books on wild on wild food collecting, the the important thing is to realize what is easy to recognize and what is uh easy to confuse with something poisonous, right? Because there are a couple of mistakes you can make that if you make that mistake, you can die, right? Yeah, yeah. But but actually that's the main problem that happens when someone's used to gathering something wild in one area, right, where it's totally safe, and then they go to another area where there's something similar that looks similar but is poisonous, right?
+
+[9:19] That's that can happen sometimes. So it's best to know what grows in your in your uh area. And also if you go with someone who's ever done it, who's experienced, right, they can point to you, and once you see a plant live and you touch it live, you smell it live, and you gather it live, odds are you're never gonna make a mistake with it, right? Uh and so in general, I I would read all those books, and I wish I had more of the modern books available, but I would uh um you know go with someone who's done it before as just a foolproof thing. Now, that aside, there are some things that are extremely easy to uh you know, easy to figure out.
+
+[9:52] Um even in New York City where I live, there's enough uh there's a a wild green called um uh auric, uh sorry, uh Lamb's Quarters related to orc. And Lamb's Quarters is a great uh you know green and it grows wild in New York City. Any place there's a vacant lot in New York City, I could in the Lower East Side today, if I wasn't worried about uh back to feces again, feces and urine sprayed all over it, and who know God knows how much gas exhaust and all that, I could create a delicious salad out of stuff growing out of the vacant lots within two blocks of my house on the lower east side. I've never done it because ew. Your wife would kill you.
+
+[10:28] Yeah, yeah, but you know, you you could. So uh, you know, just because you live in a high density area, if there's vacant lots, there's still the opportunity to uh search for greens. Another mistake people make with wild foods is they try and have their entire they you know look, you know it's very difficult unless you live in the middle of some vast wilderness where there's known supplies of wild crap to be able to go and get all of your food or substantial portion of your food from uh wild uh wild items. But there is almost always something you can gather wild locally at any given time in the year to add an accent note or to or to you know round things out or to bring out a lot of flavors. So it's a subject I'm very interested in.
+
+[11:07] Uh and you know, thanks. I think this is the first question we've had on that. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I mean my favorite things to collect is uh there's a in Maine where I go every year, there's a wild sea rocket that is just I mean it's really, really spicy and a little bit bitter. You know, rock it like arugula, but uh I love gathering that stuff.
+
+[11:24] And I mix it with auric, which is the seaside version of Lamb's Quarters, uh, and it makes just a fantastic salad, and they also have wild sea beans there, which are salty, so you don't need the extra salt from it. That's a like the best seaside salad uh ever, you know. And then uh of course from the water there you get mussels and you know, sea urchins and you know, just fantastic things. But I don't know I've never been to Oklahoma, unfortunately, so I don't know what grows around there, but I guarantee you that there is something good to be had. Uh so thank you for calling that in.
+
+[11:55] The second part of his question was uh do you uh how do you extract pine needle flavor or tree bark flavor flavor? I don't have access to a rotov app, but I do have uh a vacuum packer and a whipped cream maker. Um so the I'm not sure how he he wants to know whether you can do it in oil. I presumably he doesn't want to do it in uh alcohol because he suggests oil and water. Uh pine needle flavor um you can extract extremely well into alcohol in a vacuum machine.
+
+[12:22] I'm assuming you can do it in an ISI whipper. I haven't done it. I don't know what the results will be into oil. I can just say to try it out. But there are some varieties of things that look like pines that are poisonous.
+
+[12:29] For instance, um the yew, uh it looks kind of like pine is poisonous. Uh but most pine trees, now listen, please look this up. Like, don't go out and say Dave Arnold said pine trees are. But you know, that's the old joke actually they used to make about Yule Gibbons, is you'd go around saying many parts of a pine tree are edible. Because they are, right?
+
+[12:55] You got your pine nuts, and and uh, but uh you know, I make a habit, and Nils makes a habit actually of walking around in the springtime pulling the new shoot, uh the new new growth pine needles off of pine trees and chewing on them because they're fantastic. So, you know, it's classically you can make a tea out of pine needles and you can uh I'm sure you can make a flavored oil out of it or water using a vacuum or an ISI. The trick with pine is that uh most people have um most people have an association with pine uh of uh yeah like lysol, uh not lysol, what's that stuff called? Pine salt, pine salt. So you know that they're really worried that it's gonna go pine sally and it's gonna taste, and so I like pine drinks and Nils likes pine drinks, and we do them, but you have to be super super careful.
+
+[13:39] So you also want to make sure that you're you know that you that the type of pine you use, like you know, whether it's kind of like a sprucey kind of flavor or a fur kind of flavor, like a dug fur or whatever, it is it doesn't taste too bathroom uh cleanser-y because if it does, even if it's delicious, people won't like it. For instance, la lavender does the same thing. So a lot of people they'll like to mix with lavender. There's a good 50 to 60 percent of the population that if they detect lavender at all, they're gonna say it tastes like uh like perfume or a bathroom. And so and it should just have to do with association, not because it's not delicious.
+
+[14:10] And so I've had a lot of problems, a lot of heartache trying to make pine things that I think are delicious, and some people don't like them just because of their associations with them. And you know what? That's that's the breaks. You just gotta be careful of it. So if you're making it for yourself, it's one thing, but if you're making it for someone else, it's just something to be um aware of.
+
+[14:28] Um anyway, so I hope that uh answers. Oh, and bark, you want to know about bark. Uh I've never done any work with bark. I bet you can extract it, but the mean I've the closest I've had to bark is basically wood extracts, and they're pretty weird, they're kind of sour, and uh, you know, if you if you've ever had a rotovap and you've rotovapped uh, you know, alcohol out, you're left with basically oak water, and it's some pretty potent kind of barky wood taste. I bet you could do it.
+
+[14:57] I don't know how potent it's gonna be though when it's done uh via vacuum machine. But please give it a shot and tell us, right? Okay. Uh okay, now let's go to the next question from Chip Stadnik. Chip Stadnik asks us, uh, first of all, he says hello, he hopes all's well, Nastasha.
+
+[15:14] Is it? Yeah. It's well, it's doing well. Okay. He wants to know about the uh poly science smoking gun versus an herbal vaporizer with a whip.
+
+[15:22] And uh there's something called the pocket travel portable butane handheld herbal vaporizer that he found on eBay. Uh and so let me just he wants to know about the difference between them, which you know, is it worthwhile getting one versus the other? Uh and I think most people aren't gonna know uh what uh we're talking about. So I will tell you. So in the I don't know, eighties or something, people started making little vacuum cleaners, uh handheld vacuum cleaners for um for computer keyboards, basically, to vacuum crap out of computer keyboards.
+
+[15:54] And someone who is apparently enterprising when they're not stoned, but when they're stoned as extremely lazy, decided to reverse the battery in one of these things and drive them backwards. So instead of becoming vacuum cleaners, they're actually little blowers. And then they unscrewed the top and they screwed in a pipe bowl into the top of it, and then they would pack marrow what tobacco, right? They'd pack marijuana into the top, light it, turn it on, and it would automatically, you know, create pot smoke without, you know, without you having to exert the extra energy to inhale, right? I mean basically like extremely lazy pot smoker thing, right?
+
+[16:29] And this became kind of a popular item in uh head shops. Head shop here, I don't know if you're from abroad, that means a place where you go to buy pot stuff, uh, you know, and listen to Grateful Dead and whatnot. The um uh about you know, in the early 2000s, mid-2000s, these things started to be used in Europe primarily at the beginning to do smoking. So they would put wood chips and other flavored herbs into them, light them, and blow out smoke. And so famously, uh, you know, the Roca brothers uh at El Calar Canroca would blow smoke underneath a big cloche, and then they would lift the cloche up when they when it came to your table.
+
+[17:00] You wouldn't see the food, they would lift it up and the smoke would rise up uh, you know, and just you know envelop you, or they had a thing where they had a slipper-shaped glass and they would have a plastic over it and they would inject smoke into it, and every time you ate off of this tightly stretched plastic on the top, a smoke ring would puff up and you would get the aroma of the smoke. Okay. So that and the poly science, the people, the good people that make uh circulators, now available Williams Doma, uh they um they made basically a more robust version of this that they sell called the smoking gun. So most people use this to inject smoke into things, or you know, some people have rigged it to inject smoke into their vacuum machines right after it's vacuumed. Um smoking with them is kind of interesting.
+
+[17:42] It's not the same thing as regular smoking. You'll notice if you inject smoke into into uh a container and let it sit, that all of a sudden it'll become clear the particles will settle out. Uh so I don't think that's continuous smoking gives it I don't think that this smoking gun gives the same flavor as continuous smoking, but I think it's useful for for a lot of things. Now a vaporizer is entirely different. In a smoking uh in the smoking gun, and anything like the smoking gun, you're actually lighting the product on fire, combusting it, and that's how you're making smoke.
+
+[18:08] Okay? Now, in a vaporizer, and the most famous one of these is the volcano vaporizer, and it's uh most famously used in in cooking by Grant Aikitz at Linnea restaurant in Chicago. Uh and and the way a vaporizer works is fundamentally different. Instead of com lighting the material on fire and then uh having you know having it burn, instead you heat a chamber uh to, you know, to a temperature that basically literally vaporizes the the material uh without actually lighting it on fire. And then uh usually the you know, some sort of air is forced through it, and then you get uh like a in the volcano you get a bag full of flavor.
+
+[18:45] So then, you know, Grant would do things like you know, vaporize sage, things like that, and get those kind of aromas. Uh and this this thing that apparently now, and I didn't even know this, so thanks Chip for bringing this to my attention, they have vaporizers that are are built on butane lighter technology that fit into your hand that are a whole hell of a lot cheaper than the volcano. Uh but they're fundamentally different technologies for making uh uh flavored, you know, aroma airs. One is combusting the material and the other one is held at a temperature below outright combustion. The theory of vaporization is that it it's going to provide cleaner flavors.
+
+[19:18] The theory when you're smoking it, right? Because they're both meant for pot. You're both supposed to smoke pot with them. Uh and the theory is is that you can get all the THC when you vaporize it without all kind of nasty tar and crap like that, because it's happening at a lower temperature, so you're not forming a lot of the nasty chemicals. May or may not be true.
+
+[19:32] I haven't read the science behind it, but they do, I know from experience uh um doing uh using using them for for cooking that they do produce different results because one's a lower temperature than the other. So they're not uh they're not identical. So uh you know, I I haven't done a lot of a super side by side, but I know that they're not equivalent items. One's more of smoker and the other one's more of kind of like a uh an aroma that slightly kind of combusted, smoky smelling, but not the same thing as outright smoke. Um so I'm interested in this.
+
+[20:02] I have a volcano. I haven't really used it because um I haven't thought of a culinary application that wouldn't make me feel like I was ripping uh grant off, but if I ever did, I would use it. I mean, it's a fine piece of equipment, and this portable thing also seems interesting. So I hope that has answered your question, Chip. And this brings us to our first break.
+
+[20:22] Cooking issues radio on the Heritage Radio Network. One, two, three, four! I don't care. I don't care. I just want the satisfying balls.
+
+[21:01] I got one. What your kiss me. When you mess me. Hold my head. Make me a decay.
+
+[21:46] Oh. I don't care. I'm about your won't. I just wanna. Yeah, you're about to do the don't.
+
+[22:06] I don't care. I'm about to win you treat me, darling. You understand me, Holly. Ow! When you kiss me.
+
+[22:34] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, coming to you not live from the Bushwick block party on Sunday on Heritage Radio Network. Uh today's show, I don't know if I mentioned this before. Today's show is brought to you by the fine folks at uh Fairway, like no other market. So Fairway has, I think, three locations here uh in the New York area, as best of my knowledge.
+
+[22:58] They have the original one in the Upper West Side, which uh is you know a mob house because so many people want to go shop there. And then they have uh one that's uh up in Harlem that opened actually, I guess in the late 90s, mid-late 90s, back when I used to have my studio up there in uh art school, and man do we love shopping in that because they have a giant uh refrigerated uh ware you know warehouse where the the meat is stored, like the meat and the fish. And uh and I used to love that because I could just, you know, it I all of a sudden I didn't have to go walk the shop to get really good, you know, cheese and things like that. At the time it was really inexpensive. I haven't been back.
+
+[23:31] And then of course, they have the one near IKEA in Red Hook. So Fairway like no other market. Um okay. Now we have a question from uh Aaron Hart. So Aaron Hart uh uh was is particularly thinking about a couple of uh a couple of radio programs ago.
+
+[23:49] Uh I told someone who was just going back to college that what she should do is uh is use her microwave to achieve extraordinarily high temperatures uh so that she could uh sear things, right? And so uh, you know, for those of you that you know didn't hear it before, basically the the issue is is that uh you can get uh certain materials uh absorb microwaves, right? Water absorbs microwaves very well, which is why uh microwaves are uh you know they're you used, right? So they they choose a frequency that that absorbs uh water absorbs very well and things get hot. Now water can't get above boiling, right?
+
+[24:24] Unless it's under pressure, okay, get above boiling. So it kind of self-regulates. But there are other things that also absorb microwaves quite well. They can get way above the temperature of boiling water. And this is used by certain people to do things like uh s you know, melt low temperature metals using uh microwave absorbing crucibles in their in their micro rays, and this is entirely feasible.
+
+[24:45] Now, the uh uh a really easy to get material that absorbs microwaves fairly well is silicon carbide because that's what they make cut a lot of cutting stones out of, right? So you can just go buy uh uh one of these carbide uh silicon carbide uh cutting stones and throw it in your microwave. Please don't put it directly on the floor of your microwave because it will ruin your microwave. Put it on something that is insulating that can take the heat. And you nuke it.
+
+[25:09] Now, how long you have to nuke it depends on how how thick it is, but it can get really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hot. Uh, you know, I I mentioned, I think, you know, another couple, you know, week or two ago that we, you know, cracked an egg onto one that we did, and it just, you know, instantly huge bubbles came up. It was a little too hot for the egg, so it overcooked the egg. Nastasha thought it was gross because it was a used cutting stone. You know how Nastasha gets about things once once she has a mental problem with it, it's all over, she actually can't do with it.
+
+[25:35] But Aaron wonders uh is it somehow possible to use this interaction to rig up a better than conventional oven for doing things like tandoori chicken or pizza? Well, that's an excellent question. Uh I would say yes and no. So the the pizza, the problem with you could clearly um get a uh a small stone for small pizza up to temperatures easily, easily up to temperatures required to do uh the floor of a pizza oven, right? So you're talking you're talking up in the 800 uh Fahrenheit range in that area easily.
+
+[26:09] Uh now the problem is that uh you have to also get the ceiling up to that, or you're just gonna light the bottom of the pizza on fire without cooking the top. And if you put two stones in there, it's gonna be almost impossible for you to determine uh, you know, to to kind of get the ratio right between heat from the top and heat from the bottom. I'm told, although I am not sure, right? Uh most things that are called combination microwave toaster ovens aren't really a combination microwave toaster oven. They're like a microwave and then a toaster oven.
+
+[26:39] But I believe there is one that has the heating elements uh the toaster heating elements in the same box as the microwave. If you had one of those suckers, you could put the thing in the bottom, heat the hell out of that rock till it got up to like 600 degrees, crank that toaster element up and you know to as high as that sucker will go, put your pizza into that thing and then rip the hell out of it and get it get it to you know uh get the bottom done and the top done at the at the same time. Another alternative would be if you had a broiler in a regular oven you could get your pizza stone in your microwave up to a zillion degrees put the thing on, cook the bottom of it, pull it out, flash it underneath the broiler for a while to get it done. This is the way Otto Otto is the restaurant here in New York City that makes pizzas part of the Batali Empire. And their style of pizza is to actually uh griddle uh griddle or grill uh I can't remember whether they use a griddle or a grill something like that.
+
+[27:26] Anyway, but they cook the bottom of the pizza first basically and you know cook the bread a little bit first then after they're done flash under a broiler with the with the toppings. I do this at home uh in the summertime when I make pizza because uh it doesn't heat up my kitchen as much when I crank my oven up to 800 degrees my kitchen gets extremely hot if I just have my uh crepe maker which is basically like a griddle and I flash cooked a pizza on both sides and then stick it under my salamander to finish out in a broil I don't think the results are as good as an oven that is you know really cranked out for pizza but it's uh it's pretty damn good. You know what I mean and and it doesn't heat up your your kitchen as much, so it's so it's definitely viable. Uh I hadn't thought about a Tandor, but that's kind of an interesting, interesting idea. Uh I bet you could.
+
+[28:10] The real problem is going to be, like I said, regulating heat from the top and heat from the bottom at the same time. And um, like I said, I don't think it's exactly the same to break it into two parts to first do the bottom on a hot rock, and then to do uh you know the top from uh from a broiler standpoint. But you know, maybe you could get it to work. What do you think? What do you think?
+
+[28:28] Um you know what I think. I don't know, I don't know. Maybe. I think I think you're thinking maybe. I don't know.
+
+[28:32] I think she's thinking she's not paying attention even at what's happening. No, I am, I am. Yeah. Uh so uh anyway. So I definitely think there's a lot to be a lot to be learned, uh a lot to be discovered um with uh with microwaves.
+
+[28:44] The trick is to get um a uh a cart silicon carbide piece that's the right size so you could cook something reasonable on it without uh having it be so thick that the majority of microwaves get absorbed into something that's not useful underneath the bottom, but at the same time that has enough retained energy such that when you stick a pizza or something onto it, that it gets it that real wallop that you want to get out of the stone uh stone oven. Uh you know, you also you can maybe do a thicker pizza than you could normally this way because if you kept the microwaves going while you're doing it, you'd also internally cook the uh the the bread a little bit while it was going. It might actually be really good technique. Nastasha, you can't see her, but she looks extremely uh unconvinced. I don't know.
+
+[29:21] I'm thinking about I have a fireplace at home behind my kitchen. Nastasha Nastasha's favorite thing is to rent apartments from people that have their fireplaces plugged up because the chimneys are unsafe because they haven't been cleaned in 8,000 years, to and then to make them functional again merely by ripping out the bricks that have been bricked over. She literally will invite any anyone, like any neighbor, anyone she meets within five blocks of her house, she'll buy a sledgehammer. Actually, she'll make them bring the sledgehammer, make them go buy the sledgehammer and bring it, and then for the pleasure of having her company, right, and and a beer or two, they will slay slay slavishly break open the old fireplace, and then she will uh use it again, like come hell or high water. True or false.
+
+[30:05] Yeah, but someday I want to cook in a fireplace. Yeah, me too. There's a couple of excellent books on fireplaces. I I don't even have a uh an old fireplace in my building because my building was built in the 50s. Um but yeah, you know, if I ever get a place out in the country, which I hope to do, if you know if if we can ever scrape two nickels together long enough to for my wife and I to go and get a place in the country, I will have a giant indoor outdoor kitchen with an outdoor outdoor on one side and fireplace on the other.
+
+[30:31] Huge freaking hearth. I mean, I can't wait. Someday it's gonna, you know, cooking with fire is great. You know, that's another thing. People think that because you cook uh with uh high tech all the time that you don't enjoy like all those other forms of cooking.
+
+[30:43] Those people are wrong. Right. They're dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Yeah, fire is delicious. Anyway, uh, and and by the way, going back to Tandor, I almost bought and put in my house a gas fire tandor.
+
+[30:58] Uh I didn't have the money at the time uh to put it in. It would have cost me probably a grand or something like that. I didn't have the money. But I was thinking of building one just by hand anyway, and then I realized that my wife already puts up with enough crap. And I would have had to get rid of something.
+
+[31:12] And you know, it would probably have been the fryer, and since frying is God's cooking technique, and fryer is the last thing on earth I would give up. Like the the fryer and a bathroom are the last two things I would give up in uh in my in my house, probably. And um, and so yeah, I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. But I I'm gonna bury I I'm gonna dig a hole in the ground. If I ever get a piece of ground for myself, I'm gonna dig a hole in the ground, put a tandoor in.
+
+[31:37] It's gonna be one of the very first things I do as part of the indoor outdoor kitchen. Because I think if everyone had a tandoor, everyone would just be a little happier, right? Right. Right. Let's go to break.
+
+[31:48] Okay, we'll go to break and we'll come back with the last segment of cooking issues. On the way you do it. On the way you do it. If I keep loving you, my life will be ruined. I've done got him.
+
+[32:15] I'll be running around. Got him. Look at him. Do you run and run? But do you know my thing?
+
+[32:27] I'm going up to town. Ow! Get it together. Get it together. Come here.
+
+[32:38] Get it together. Get it together. Oh! You decided you wanted. A brand new bag.
+
+[32:51] You said you wanted. Look at you. A brand new bag. But you, you were just diving. You want it to be a drag.
+
+[33:08] Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Dave Arnold and Nastasha Lopez coming to you not live today, uh, answering your cooking questions. So let me get right into the last question we had emailed. It's actually a question and an answer. So we've had an ongoing uh kind of question with uh a friend of mine, Julio, who's actually a well-known fashion designer here in the city, and by the way, was uh uh is a good friend to Priscilla Morgan, who is amused to Isama Noguchi, and one of the people's part of the Batterberry friends, people I know through Michael Batterberry, uh and through Jonathan Marvel, an architect friend of mine.
+
+[33:42] Anyway, so uh long way in introduction. Anyway, he's interested. He is for some reason wants to uh reduce his caloric intake, even though the man uh looks uh looks great. He does not look at all uh fat, but he's worried about his caloric intake. And so he has a sweet tooth, and so he's been asking how to reduce uh um sugar content, especially in things like meringues.
+
+[34:04] And uh I should have thought of this kind of stuff right away, but because I'm uh dunce, I didn't. And um uh George uh uh Davidson called in and he said, or wrote in and said, I have an answer. Uh why not use maltodextrin to stabilize it? And uh that is excellent. I don't know what the hell I I was thinking uh to not say it.
+
+[34:24] That's an excellent uh suggestion. Uh George uh came up with this because uh his wife had gestational diabetes. You know, you know, for those of you that don't know a lot of women, uh not a lot, but you know, a certain percentage of women when they get uh pregnant get uh diabetes during the pregnancy and they and then they have issues with sugar. So maltodextrin, right? Uh what maltodextrin is is it you take starch, uh which is a bunch of repeating glucose units, and you break it up into smaller uh units.
+
+[34:55] And so the maltodextrins are uh, you know, they're like you know, several glucose glucoses long. They're like uh, I don't know, like eight, ten, six, eight, ten glucoses long, right? So the the more glucoses are in a row in uh maltodextrin, the bigger they are, the less taste they have. So uh the shorter they get, like like three glucoses for they start tasting sweet, right? So uh and two glucoses together is called maltose, right?
+
+[35:25] So, and then one glucose is called glucose. Anyway, so uh basically maltodextrins are these things that are kind of like, you know, they're not long chain things, like starch is like, you know, hundreds, thousands of of uh glucose long, and um uh maltodextrins are much shorter and they're usually very bland. Sometimes they're sweet, depends on which one you get, and uh they can be derived from any kind of starch, tapioca starch, corn starch, rice, blah, blah, blah, blah, it doesn't matter, right? But they all have extremely different uh physical properties, which is why you have to be uh careful. So, for instance, one of the one of the applications, people will always say, Hey, uh, Dave, I want to use tapioca maltodextrin to uh make uh oils into powders, right?
+
+[36:08] And we hear this a lot. Yes, yes, I hear this a lot. Yes. Don't ever say that, right? Tapy saying like tapioca maltodextrin is like saying, Hey, I need to do something.
+
+[36:18] I need some sort of vehicle on wheels that rolls. Do you need uh like a flexible flyer wagon? Or do you need like a Hummer? You know what I mean? Like because like like they're very different in properties, right?
+
+[36:31] So for instance, the tapioca maltodextrin that you use to turn powders into oils is something called uh and sorbet and I think from the National Starch Corporation, and it's a very specific uh uh maltodextrin made from tapioca that uh is extremely not dense, right? It's extremely uh has a very, very high volume, uh very low density. And so they use it as a bulking agent. But the reason they can turn oils into powders is because um when you put uh a starch, right, is basically a big helix, right? Just like DNA is a double helix, it's a heel is a single helix, it's a helix.
+
+[37:09] And the inside of that helix hates water, hates it, hydrophobic, right? Uh but likes oil. So oil can go on the inside of that uh starch helix, right? Uh but on the the outside of that uh loves water, right? And that's why these this maltodextrin can uh that is heli helical like a starch, that's why the maltodextrin dissolves in water so well and why it you know dissolves in your palate, uh on your mouth so well.
+
+[37:34] So uh what happens if what happens is that you uh put the oil in, the oil goes into the inside of the uh helix, but because the maltodextrin has such a high uh you know, so so not dense, it's so fluffy, that then it can basically fluff out and stay separate, and you have this kind of powdery oil. But as soon as you put this stuff in your mouth, right, it goes instantly, dissolves back, and there's very little actual material there. So, like a bag of, you know, a bag of of a pound of maltodextrin, uh, tapioca maltodextrin or a kilo of it, it's like you know, like the size of a beanbag chair. It's crazy, you know what I mean? It's so not dense, and that's basically what it does.
+
+[38:14] Now, um the reason this helps you uh it be it it's you can digest it, so it has calories, like a starch, the same number of calories per gram, but typically for usage you use far fewer grams because it bulks up very well, and so you won't use as much. So you can actually get a reduced caloric intake by uh by using it. Now, if you're diabetic, this is a great thing to use because um it doesn't have any sort of insulin problems. So what he was doing for his wife was uh using uh a tapioca maltodextrin presumably not ensorbit he doesn't specify which one and saccharin as a sweetener but you could use anything uh that you know is uh safe for diabetics as a sweetener and he uses um he uses uh what does he use he he doesn't say how much yeah he uses sweetened low but he doesn't say how much maltodextrin he uses um but the the whole advantage is that you can use a lot less maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is also good uh anytime you want to add bulk to something so another kind of meringue that we make at the school actually quite a lot is made uh with something called um uh my brain's on on on fried today because I'm listening to this music from the Bushwick Block Party.
+
+[39:22] But uh it's uh it's called methylcellulose and methylcellulosis uh I always like to say that all the hydrocolides we use are all 100% natural this is the one that kind of isn't uh it's uh it's it's not natural. I mean it's not like I always say it's not a natural but I don't think it's ungodly right it's basically a modified cellulose product that's not found in nature. But it has the very interesting property that it gels when it's heated and also it it can act certain of them. The one we use is methylcel F like Frank 50 uh like Hawaii 5O F50 and uh basically it is a good whipping agent. So we use it when we're making meringues that we don't want to add uh egg white to right so they're basically you don't have to add the egg white is a is a protein so it it it's a whipping agent but it also forms the structure of the meringue uh of the of these mering like I'm making little quote marks I don't know how to say it, meringue, you know.
+
+[40:16] Uh and so what we can do is we can basically take f pure fruit um pureees and then we and that are bulked up by uh having a lot of uh pectin in them, having a lot of solids from the fruit, and then uh we usually add sugar for taste, but you could add anything to it, you wouldn't need to add sugar for taste, uh, because the sugar's not such a structural component in these meringues. Then we add uh methyl cellulose, which we use as a whipping uh agent, and then um uh we whip them up and they uh and then you dehydrate them and they're like a meringue. They're fantastic. The only problem is they don't really uh last outside too long because they suck up moisture, they're very hydro high hygroscopic. Anyway, but uh if there's not enough uh bulking agent uh in the product, like if you're doing let's say nori or something, it's something that doesn't have a lot of stuff to it, you can put maltodextrin in as the bulking agent.
+
+[41:06] So you have any sort of maltodextrin in there, uh usually along with xanthan to make it a little thicker, and then uh methyl cellulose, uh and you whip it like a meringue, you pipe it and you dehydrate it, and it's eats just like a meringue, but you can have extremely low sugar volumes. And and actually this is kind of something that I endorse. I normally like I say I don't endorse necessarily removing products just to reduce their caloric intake, um, but you know, we can do this and we can get really interesting flavor results. And that's why I think it's kind of an interesting an interesting um thing to do. Uh you know, so uh what do you think?
+
+[41:39] You think we finally answered this question or have we not? I think so. Well we'll we'll find out the week after. We'll find out the week after. Okay.
+
+[41:46] I think you know, but but okay, so the second part of the uh this was a a comment uh s thank you, and and a question. And the question was uh he's interested in making uh habanero vodka because we've been discussing um we've been discussing habanero vodka for a while. Uh and he said um, how long will it last? And do you think it would do well in a vodka cream sauce? And he then also, why do vodka cream sauce recipes tell you to reduce the vodka?
+
+[42:11] When I say reduce the vodka, not make less of it, but to put it in the pan, flash it off, right? This is pointless vodka's pure ethanol or ethanol and water, actually, and reducing it just removes some. Why not add it near the end and reduce the amount? And do you think this makes a difference flavor-wise? Well, that's an excellent question.
+
+[42:25] I will answer the first one because I know the answer. When you use a habanero uh to make a vodka, if you were using green habaneros, the flavor I think will be fairly stable. If you are, I don't use green habaneros. If you are using uh red habaneros, um the flavor, in my my experience, and my experience has not been with infused uh habanero, it's been with distilled habanero. My experience has been the stable the flavor is unstable.
+
+[42:53] Uh it that it's pretty good for a couple of months. And it's not that it goes bad, it goes green. So after you know, six months, a year, when you taste it, it's no longer gonna taste like that amazing floral fruity habanero that you're used to. It's gonna taste closer to um it's gonna definitely taste greener, right? And it's gonna, and I don't know why, and it's definitely going to taste it's some people say it tastes more like uh jalapeno at that point.
+
+[43:18] You've tasted it, right, Styas? Yeah. Yeah. And so um that's what happens. But you're you you've got a good couple of months if you keep it in the freezer, you got a good couple of months out of it before it starts to go on you.
+
+[43:28] We've also never stored it at extremely high proofs. We stored it basically at um 100 proof at about 50 percent, and that's been uh our experience. It does work well in sauces. I have used it in sauces, and the flavor really comes through in a sauce. It's really a great way to add habanero.
+
+[43:44] Well, with the way we do it, it's got the habanero aroma, but not the capsacean, not the spiciness. And so it's a great way to add habanero flavor to something like a sauce without um without adding a lot of spice. Uh, I don't know why the hell you would reduce uh the vodka when you put in. You're not getting rid of the alcohol, obviously, when you're boiling it, you're getting rid of some alcohol. Like, you know, some people think you boil all the alcohol away, and that's not the case.
+
+[44:05] You boil some away. I don't know why you would add more and then reduce it to get rid of some of the ethanol, because I would guess that the you know it's not like um it's not like in a uh in a situation with uh where you put alcohol in a batter to reduce the gluten formation or something like that. I mean, presumably it's there just to uh increase the volatile release of you know aroma wise, I would guess, although I haven't done a lot of research on it. So I would think that adding a smaller amount later would probably do the same thing. I'm guessing, but that's a guess.
+
+[44:38] Um and I'm sure I'll get some emails telling me why that is uh completely wrong. But anyway, I hope that answered that question. So let me see, to finish out some other interesting stuff. We just did a party. How many days ago is that?
+
+[44:51] Two uh two. Two days ago. We did a yeah, Vogue uh Vogue magazine, Jeffrey Steingarten, who was on this program, uh basically is uh friends with uh Dave Chang, convinced Dave Chang to do this party for Vogue for fashion's fashion week night out, some I don't know. Fashions night out. Some sort of yeah, some sort of show.
+
+[45:10] Anyway, and uh and so and then somehow we got roped into doing a cocktail for it. And Dave had on his clean black shirt. Yeah, I put on my I put on my special, my special Vogue fashion clean clean black t shirt uh to serve these drinks. But anyway, so uh we might do a we might do a version of this for the uh Heritage Radio. If the peaches aren't good, we might yeah, so it's Concord grape, uh clarified the way we clarified it.
+
+[45:33] The problem with Concord Grapes is uh Concorde grapes uh they're delicious, but if you are too aggressive when you're getting the juice out of them, you uh crush the seeds and they take on a uh uh a bitter note. So you have to kind of do a good job crushing, but then you also want to get really good extraction. So we um we first put it through an ice crusher and then we put them uh along with uh our uh uh SPL, which is our pectin breaking down enzyme, put that which you can contain from cooking issues dot com, uh, and then we put it into our chocolate grinder, but we set the chocolate grinder up high so that it wouldn't crush the seeds. So it was just smashing them and then we spun them in the centrifuge. Then we added uh the we added lemon juice and uh maple syrup and we chilled that sucker with liquid and some water, uh not a lot, but some.
+
+[46:16] Uh and uh, you know, that was delicious. Good. Yeah. That was a delicious product. We use rye whiskey in that one, but we we'd be using maker's mark in this next, so we'd probably have to change the recipe a bit.
+
+[46:25] But that was that was a a delicious, delicious product. And even though uh, you know, they it was like we we sold those drinks, what we pour, like four hundred drinks in like an hour or something like that. Yeah, and uh we sold out. So if you came to that event and you didn't get one of the drinks, I heartily apologize. Uh and let me see, talk about your new Macy machine, please.
+
+[46:47] Oh, all right. So Well, let me preface it by saying that everyone thinks Dave is very fun. Like really and you are really fun. But you're also the cheapest man alive. So uh well, about some things I could not possibly be cheaper.
+
+[47:00] For instance, um I will not take a cab unless what I'm carrying Well, not even. I was gonna say not even carry it. My legs are not broken. I'm not I don't see why I'm gonna take a cab. Like when I come out to here, I don't take the subway because that costs two dollars and fifty cents, so I t or whatever it is.
+
+[47:16] So I bike out here to Brooklyn because my legs are not broken. Why would I do that? Anyway, so the uh uh so Mark Ladner from Del Posto, who by the way is you know great guy, Mark Ladner, we all love Mark Ladner from Del Posto restaurant here in uh New York City, basically uh donated to Nastasha really. I had nothing to do with it. But right?
+
+[47:35] I mean, let's be honest here. You know what I mean? Uh donated to Nastasha, the this uh old vacuum machine from Del Posto that it's like no well, it's like you know, it's like halfway working. It's almost working. Yeah.
+
+[47:46] Right? Yeah. So anyway, she donated to the French Culinary Institute. And I'm like, a vacuum machine. How you know?
+
+[47:51] He's like, you know, you're gonna need to get a truck. I'm like, truck, what the fuck? Truck. Truck. This thing is about half the size of Dave and weighs like 500 pounds.
+
+[47:59] Yeah, anyways. So I show up and look at it, I'm like, oh geez. Because the problem is like it'd be hard to lift into a truck without a lift gate. So this is becoming, you know, and you know, Del Posto is on like what? 16th.
+
+[48:11] 16th and like basically the river. It's about Hudson River. Three miles away from the school. No. Yes.
+
+[48:16] Come on. It was like two and a half. Anyways, so I'm like, to hell with it. I'm not gonna pay for a damn truck to come pick up this thing and move it when my legs are not broken. So that picture on the blog that Nastasha posted, in case anyone's wondering, was you know, I am that guy who's dumb enough to push the damn vacuum machine from Del Posto to the French Culinary Institute on the hottest day of the year.
+
+[48:42] Uh and uh, you know, here's the thing, right? It's like it i this is how I get things done. You know, that that you know, it's like uh, you know, when I was in school, I you know, I needed something, I dunno I jumped into a dumpster, I would get it. You know what I mean? When I when I need to do something, I I get on eBay and you know you find it for the cheapest possible price just because I've never had enough money to to do things, you know, in a non-ghetto way.
+
+[49:08] And um and I've always been willing to spend more time and energy than I probably should to do things. Uh I have since met some people who have not done it that way and are much more efficient. Uh so maybe, you know, in the future, look for us to be uh less stupid. But yeah, on the other hand, being stupid this way and cheap has you know, for whatever it's worth, gotten me know where I am. What?
+
+[49:33] It's endearing a little bit. My extreme cheapness? Yeah. Well, it's good that, you know, the the the Scottish blood in me brings my extreme cheapness and is is I'm glad it's at least somewhat endearing. It can be a pain in the butt, uh, especially for you know people like my wife who has to deal with uh my extraordinary cheapness.
+
+[49:53] Uh but you know, like I say, sometimes and I'm not cheap when it comes to I buy the best ingredients, all right? I buy the best ingredients. I'm not cheap about that. So it's weird. Like my wife is mad because I spend uh a ton of money on food because I'm not gonna buy food that I think is substandard.
+
+[50:06] Um which doesn't mean snobby. That's I think a big problem. Like people think that food in you know, the it's it's between like some effete bastard who only cares about spending a lot of money on their food, and between somebody who, you know, just buys crap and doesn't care. They don't you know, there's a lot of people out there, and I think this is the word everyone needs to spread about food, about what's going on with food now. It's just not about it's not about being a food snob, it's not about outspending the person next to you or getting the rarest ingredient or anything like that.
+
+[50:32] Even though I you know I deal professionally, I deal in the rarefied world of high-tech cooking. And it that a lot of that is really expensive, right? So people think that what we're doing is elitist, and well, okay, the stuff that I do for a living kind of necessity is because it's a very like very niche high-tech food, but that's not the way that doesn't mean that's the only thing that's that good food is, right? Or the only thing that I enjoy doing. Uh, you know, I think that we all need to step back and make sure that whatever we're doing, we're never being food snobs because I think you know that's not that way doesn't lie the the the best food for the for the most amount of people which is I think what we're shooting at.
+
+[51:10] And then I will leave you on this note. Heritage Foods and you know Pat Patrick Heritage Foods uh is uh interested and has been talking with us about reviving an idea uh you know had a while ago uh for a food museum in uh in New York and so look for he's starting to put people working on it right Stas yes and so look for look for in a couple of years look for that to finally actually happen uh and that uh that's gonna be you know I think the best because we're gonna be focused uh specifically on making sure that it's not about just uh elitist food or just snobby food we've got to show people that good food is for everyone fair way fair way like no other market that was cooking issues thanks for listening we'll be back live next time
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+[0:16] Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha Lopez, Cooking Issues Hammer. And we are coming live to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Call in with all of your cooking related questions. Call in live to 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:39] That's 718-497-2128. And today's show is brought to you by the Whole Foods Market and the Kraft Beer Festival, which is coming up starting, I guess, Friday, right? It's a whole week of craft beer stuff. And to kick off the annual series, the Whole Foods Market Bowery is hosting a beer and food pairing event at their beer room. Oscar Blues is on tap, and Chef Jacques Gautier of Park Slopes Palo Santos cooking up one of his South American delights to a company.
+
+[1:04] The food tasting goes from 5 to 7, and the beer will continue till 9 with Kraft Beer Week Passports. Get $3 off, 64 ounce Growler Phill. That's quite a lot of beer. And meet Chef Gautier on Friday, September 24th, and enjoy some special tastes on tap from the kitchen. By the way, uh that's right by my house, actually.
+
+[1:20] The uh the Whole Foods Bowery is right by my house where I live in the lower east side of Manhattan. And uh I was happy to see that very recently they have actually a homebrew section there, and I think it's the only place that I know of in Manhattan where you can walk in and buy malt and yeast and uh all the stuff for homebrew. So cheers to you, Whole Foods for making homebrew accessible to uh us Manhattanites. Um I haven't brewed beer since I was uh since since right before my second son was born, and then my wife was like, hey, you know what? It's already a mess in the damn house.
+
+[1:51] You got two kids, no more beer brewing. Because of course, when I brew beer, like I can't just be like a normal human being and use extracts. Like I, you know, I have full, you know, full malt, you know, I ground it all in my house as a you know, it's a it's a freaking mess. Delicious, but a freaking mess. Anyway, call in your questions to 718 497 2128.
+
+[2:09] That's 718 497 2128. So Nastasha, it's uh been a busy uh week, right, for the Cookie Issues crew, uh, which is why you haven't seen much on the blog recently because we've been uh super busy. We're in the middle of Star Chef's Week, which uh, you know, is a uh yearly uh convention uh of uh chefs, I guess. Wait, what do you think? Star Chefs?
+
+[2:27] Yes anyway, at the armory uh on the east side of Manhattan, and uh you know, a lot of the uh glitterati of the food world show up for three days and hang out, and we we did a cocktail event yesterday, which was good. We have another cocktail event this afternoon and another one tomorrow. Another one tomorrow. And then coming up on Saturday, and there are I think believe only 20 tickets left. We are doing a cocktail for the Heritage Radio Network's uh yearly fundraising barbecue, the Heritage Radio Party here at Roberta's Pizza in Brooklyn.
+
+[2:57] And if you want to get one of those last remaining tickets, they're a hundred dollars a pop. You can email info at heritage radio network.com. That's info at heritage radio network dot com. Okay, now uh let's uh look for some questions. We have some email questions while we're waiting to see if we get any callers.
+
+[3:13] Don Rollins writes in and he said he just uh now listened to uh one of our previous shows, and there was a question we answered about vodka in sauces. And he says that Alton Brown mentioned, I suppose, on the uh on the what's it what's his Good Eats, right? Good on his Good Eats show, uh, that tomatoes contain several compounds that are soluble in alcohol, but not in water or oil. And adding alcohol to a tomato sauce brings out more of its essential tomato-ness based on that fact. Well, uh, Don, I uh did some research early this morning.
+
+[3:40] Uh, and there are many, many references on the internet to that being the case, to there being an alcohol, like uh certain uh principles in the tomato that are more soluble in alcohol, uh, but I was not able to find any specific technical reference that uh bore that out. Now it is true that uh alcohol is going to change the release uh like alcohol in in uh in your in your product is gonna change the release of volatiles from it and therefore uh change the uh you know the flavor impact of the sauce. And I was able to find several technical references to that. There's also some mention on some sites um of alcohol actually reacting with uh the tomato uh you know with the actual tomato to to produce flavorful components that were not there before. So those are you know some possible things, but I don't have any ironclad evidence that I I could find, you know, a scientific paper that said, hey, look, here's what's going on.
+
+[4:36] I do though have a text into Harold McGee. So if he gets back to me on uh on the question of uh tomato sauce and vodka and whether there's anything uh more complicated going on, I will relay it to you next week. Um Jake Andrews writes in to uh Nastasha and says uh he wants to know whether anyone uh my iPad just died. No, he wants to know uh he got taken on eBay with an older poly science poly temp circulator that is missing the thermometer to control the bath. Is there anything he can do or is he shafted?
+
+[5:06] Well, uh I really, you know, I sympathize with you. I had my first kind of uh eBay shellacking recently where I bought a piece of equipment, a refractometer, actually, an automatic refractometer thing is would be crazy awesome because it measures basically uh the ref any any you know the refractive index of almost anything. It'll do bricks zero up to you know in the 90s automatically, uh, you know, automatic temperature concentrates. I could put a f a flow-through device on it so that I can measure things as I'm producing them, so I can measure alcohol content as as I'm distilling. It has user uploadable software profiles where I can upload.
+
+[5:41] Anyway, it should be like a $5,000 piece of equipment. I bought it for $100 on eBay and said it was working, but guess what? It wasn't. And the company, uh, I'm not going to mention Reichert by name, but they were not at all helpful to me. Uh, you know, they wouldn't even help me troubleshoot.
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+[5:55] I think there's a problem with the EEPROM, which is the chip that you know loads the software into it because hardware-wise it seemed okay. But they wouldn't even like open their mouths to tell me like what to look at, so uh shellact. Now, you're lucky in the one sense that poly science is not like this. I did a quick search on Polytemp. I don't have the actual model.
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+[6:11] Oh, and for those of you that don't know what the hell we're talking about. Immersion circulators are uh pieces of equipment that are becoming more and more common in kitchens today uh that very, very accurately control the temperature of liquid. They used to be lab equipment, but now they're basically used in kitchens for low temperature cooking. And Philip Preston from PolyScience just released the first kitchen model uh you know a couple of months ago that's specifically designed for kitchen. It's not just a piece of lab equipment, it's a piece of kitchen equipment.
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+[6:35] Anyway, they're great. I use it, I use it every day. It's the party machine, it's the brunch machine. Like if you ever have a party or throw a brunch, uh, this kind of equipment, you know, you should look into it. Anyway, you can see it on our website or go to polyscience.com.
+
+[6:47] Anywho, uh Philip is not a huge fan of you going out and buying used equipment because he wants to sell new equipment, and also uh because he says he doesn't know what happened to the equipment back in the day. The other problem is I've I've worked on many of these eBay things that you know, in in the past eight years, I've maybe had um or ten years, I've had uh I don't know, 10, twelve ones off of eBay. Uh and a lot of the older models break because they've been used in laboratories for a long, long time. The bearings tend to go bad on them. Uh you tend to have corrosion on the internal contacts, which leads to resistance and overheating on the internal parts.
+
+[7:21] Um so there are issues with the older ones. I'm assuming if it's older, it's analog. The good news is if you can get it to work, the analog ones are fairly accurate once you set them. You just need to get uh a separate thermocouple to monitor digitally what's going on. Now the problem is is that you don't have a temperature probe on it.
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+[7:36] Now, I did some research and it appears that some of the older poly science circulators have uh what's called uh a thermocouple basically, uh, which is easy to source. The newer ones all use uh platinum RTDs, which also are not difficult to source or to wire. So what I would do is contact uh either give me the model number or contact poly science directly and ask them what type of uh what type of probe that unit has. And any one of those probes is very easy to source via eBay or McMaster car. Not that you want to necessarily source on eBay again after you got shafted, but uh anyway, they're fairly easy to source.
+
+[8:12] So you just need to find out exactly what it is that you need to get uh and then make a determination as to whether or not it's worthwhile. First of all, you should fire it up, make sure the motor's still working, you know, make sure the electronics still come on. Uh anyway, I hope I hope this helps. Um one of our people from our Sous vide class last week, which is the reason why we, you know, couldn't be here live last week, Matt, uh, wrote in and he said um he he has actually has a restaurant uptown in my old neighborhood, uh up uh 109th or 10th, 108th called SIP. And uh check it out if you're up there.
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+[8:45] I haven't made it made it up there yet, but I intend to. Um so he's wondering whether we ever tried to carbonate lic uh liquor. You everyone who knows me personally knows that I carbonate nothing but liquor, basically, liquor and and water. I don't uh I don't I like everything with bubble most everything I like with bubbles in it, right, Nastasha? Yes.
+
+[9:01] Mm-hmm. Yeah, bubbles. Borbujas. Anyway, I like bubbles a lot. So his question is uh have we ever tried to carbonate in an old uh fashion soda water container uh because he wants to put it behind his bar because he thinks it's you know it because they do look cool.
+
+[9:13] It's not because he thinks they look cool, they do look cool. Uh and he's actually gonna make a uh he's gonna make a an infused liquor um based on like uh pepper and tomato, and he wants to carbonate. Now, uh whether or not it's feasible to use these old bottles depends on what you mean by old bottles. So so roughly you can divide into two different categories. One is the kind that take chargers on them, like and and two uh sorry, CO2 chargers.
+
+[9:36] And these are kind of the the older variety home units um that glass with a metal cage around, uh, you know, EC made them, a K I S I or whatever you want to call them. Uh a number of other manufacturers used to be made a lot in Czechoslovakia, very thick glasses. And these ones can be used to uh carbonate. The problem with them is is that they're it's very hard to get a very good level of carbonation. First of all, liquor is going to require uh more CO2 than water, and it's hard to get the head space out uh of the top of the uh of the unit.
+
+[10:05] So what I recommend is if you're gonna use one of those with two charge, you have to use two chargers. And what you do is make sure your liquor is super, super cold, right? Super cold. If you have a vacuum machine, de-aerate it first to get rid of some of the air. If you don't, don't worry about it, because you're gonna go to the second step.
+
+[10:20] You're gonna put your liquor in, make sure you always fill it to the exact same level every time. This way you know your recipe is gonna work. Changing the level of liquid in the bottle is gonna change the amount of carbonation you have each time, okay? So make sure it's just the same every time. Make sure the temperature of the liquid is the same every time, as cold as possible.
+
+[10:36] Then uh put a CO2 cart uh cartridge in, swirl it to get it all dissolved, and then vent it so that it foams up and so you lose uh f sorry, apologize. Turn it upside down so that the the actual uh siphons, these old seltzer siphons have a uh a rod which goes down to the bottom so that when you press it, the pressure forces the liquid up through the rod and out the nozzle, right? When you're venting, you have to turn the seltzer siphon upside down so that you're venting the gas and not the product out. Otherwise you're gonna be in for a terrible mess. Anyway, so turn the thing upside down, vent out the gas.
+
+[11:10] That's gonna get rid of the air uh in that's still trapped on the inside. Uh and it's also gonna get rid of a lot of what's called the nucleation sites, which cause excess bubbling, right? So that's the key step, turning it upside down and venting it. Then turn it right side up, put another charger into it, shake it, and chill it, and you should have a good product. Now, if you mean by old seltzer bottles, the kind that the seltzer man delivers on a truck or woman, I guess, but typically they were seltzer men, delivers uh uh on a uh delivers on a truck, like three stooges style, and you have a little lever and you squeeze them and you spray your buddy in the face or put out a fire or whatever.
+
+[11:43] Uh no, that one is much more difficult to fill. They they don't take a charger and they don't unscrew. Those are actually the the tops are left on them and they are washed and filled uh by a machine by actually you you squeeze the the nozzle like you squeeze the lever like you were going to uh spray seltzer out of it, and then a machine squeezes a nozzle and fills it without taking the top off. So I've considered for several years actually building something to do that, but I haven't done it, and it's not a trivial process. So until and I didn't see anyone on the internet, until someone works out like a super slick uh do it yourself way of refilling those old old seltzer bottles, I would not try to get one of those.
+
+[12:22] Although it's always been a project that I've been interested in. It's just just too much too many projects in too little time. That's true. I saw a lot at flea markets, and I was gonna get you one. Yeah, well also if you're gonna do it, uh get one with a metal mesh around it because you know if someone nicks one of those old glasses and you're inflating it up to 60 PSI or so, I mean, those were built for 120 PSI, but who knows?
+
+[12:39] You know what I mean? I don't want it to shatter and explode glass all over you, and then you say, Hey, Dave Arnold's gonna be okay to use it. Anyway, uh that's not the okay. Oh, so we have a caller. Hello, caller.
+
+[12:50] How are you doing? Hi, I'm fine, how are you? Doing well. Okay, I have a question. It's about chicken.
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+[12:55] Because I cook chicken thighs all the time, and it seems like no matter how I cook them, they come out wonderfully and everyone thinks they're great. But whenever I cook chicken breasts or chicken cutlets or even a whole chicken, it just seems like the chicken breasts are never that tasty and they're often dry, and especially the next day. Like the next day you can heat up a stew with chicken thighs and it's really good and even better. But whenever I try to heat up chicken breasts the next day, they're even drier. So I just wondered if you have any tips.
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+[13:22] Well, first of all, you are correct. Uh the chicken thighs are inherently superior to chicken breasts. And I do not know what kind of marketing nonsense has convinced the majority of Americans that somehow white meat chicken is superior to dark meat chicken. It's insane. It's insanity.
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+[13:39] The the thigh is inherently has more taste, has possibly it's more fat and connective tissue. It's gonna stay more moist and has a higher tolerance to uh overcooking than the breast meat does. I mean, that's just straight up fact. Okay. Uh and uh uh breast meat in like a typical American chicken doesn't have as much flavor as you'd like.
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+[14:00] But you know, here is here's some things. I mean, do you brine the breasts? No, but that's a that's a good thought. Yeah, here's here's the thing. So when you brine the breast, two things are happening.
+
+[14:09] Or or I've brine both, but if you brine the breast with uh I usually uh make uh some uh like a even you could just do water solution till it's uh salty, tasty like salty, almost like ocean salty, and then you add sugar until it just gets sweet, and what you're doing is is by adding that salt, you are changing uh the amount of water that the muscle can uh hold on to, right? So it seems counterintuitive that because when you add salt, usually you're drawing moisture out. But when when the salt gets into the meat, it's actually changing the amount of moisture that the meat can hold on to when it cooks, and it gives you a couple couple extra degrees of temperature before the meat dries out. And it'll also appear moisture when it's when it's cooled down. Um the the other, you know, obviously you want to be careful not to overcook the breast.
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+[14:52] If you cook the breast separately from the thigh, it's easier. Um, but um that that the main thing is the brining. Also, the brining is going to increase the salt level on the inside of the meat, which is going to increase the flavor of that meat, make it a little less inherently flavorless, you know. Um so you win two times with that. Uh you know, if you have an immersion circulator, that is a spot on way to to do you know, the piece of equipment we were just talking about.
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+[15:17] It's a spot on way to cook it, because then you can cook a chicken breast to like 63, 64 Celsius, and when it cools down, it's super juicy and the texture is just right. But I personally I think it's hard to uh you know, using traditional cooking techniques to achieve a uh a good uh uh chicken breast that's good as a cold preparation the next day. Uh you know, that's why we tend to chop it up and toss it with mayonnaise. Do you know what I mean? Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
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+[15:43] That's what I always do. Yeah, I mean that's delicious too. I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, I love chicken salad. Who mean I mean, you know, we grew up on that stuff.
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+[15:49] I love chicken salad, but um so I don't know whether I've been helpful. You probably make it with homemade mayonnaise, right? Uh, you know, I wish I could say that's true, but I like but y there's certain things that you grow up with in life and you just tend to like them, and one of them is I like store-bought mayonnaise. I hate to say it. I just uh poaching chicken breasts.
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+[16:10] I mean, that's sort of something we all grew up with too. Right. Well, uh poaching chicken breasts, you know, there's a there's a couple of I I used to do it quite a lot. I've you know, Jacques Popin came out with a cookbook in the eighties, and he has a chicken salad uh recipe, poached chicken recipe that he attributes to Danny Kay, the famous uh actor was also, I believe a conductor and and a fine, fine cook. Uh and um he used a technique where he would put it into uh water, although I would use broth, right?
+
+[16:37] And then you can uh raise you you raise the temperature till it just comes to the boil, and then you cover it and then you let the the heat ride out. Now it's no way an accurate cooking technique, but it's a variation on a cooking technique that has been used for millennia. For instance, hams used to be cooked that way in a five-gallon uh uh lard container. Uh you would, you know, you you would heat the water up in the lard, put the ham in, close it and then wrap it up, and let the carry overheat. And the theory is is that the carry overheat's gonna be enough to cook it, but the temperature is gonna drop enough that it's not gonna horribly overcook the meat by the time it's done.
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+[17:10] So I used to fill up a uh you know, like a pot of water and put, you know, uh a pot with uh some you know vegetables and uh and you know, if you had some broth or stock, you could put it in, and then chicken breasts, I would also use thighs, bring it up to the just the simmer, close it and let it ride out, and you get two things. You get a nice broth and you get some nice chicken meat that's good for a cold salad because it was not overcooked but cooked in water, so it didn't lose uh or cooked in moisture, so it didn't lose a lot of uh uh a lot of um, you know, a lot of it's it's not dry. So uh and that's uh you know, attributable to Danny Kay through Jacques Papin, if that's helpful. Well, that's really helpful. Thank you so much.
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+[17:49] Hey, thanks for listening. Okay, take care. Bye. Did you take a break, Dave? Oh, uh, and I'm told that we are coming on to our first commercial break.
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+[17:55] This is cooking issues that uh cooking issues radio on Heritage Radio Network. 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I want to get on the good foot. I got a kid on the food foot.
+
+[18:15] Going down to the three, and let all hang out. Going down, and let it all hang out. Where's so button? Where people can find a big And hear the music five band. The dance and on the good foot.
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+[18:44] I got the weather on the food foot. I got the boo it on the good foot. Do it with the good foot. Say the whole meeting back, all get together, all these tracks, and they put it good foot. But the winter spin.
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+[19:13] That's on my bad boy. You know my face getting short, and it got some booze. I got a fucking job in the face and news on the good foot. Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network where we answer your cooking questions at 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128.
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+[20:07] Okay, so Michael Griffiths from Philadelphia is a follower of the blog. Thank you so much. And uh he called in because he has having a problem with uh some seafood sausages he's making and because they added ginger to them, and he says they they didn't come out the same, and he's pretty sure that the ginger reacted uh he thinks with the eggs and messed it up. He said because he also has put uh um ginger into consume and he couldn't get the raft when you're c when you're clarifying uh when you're clarifying things, you add you traditionally you add an egg white raft, and the protein along with whatever ground-up lean meat you put in helps hold on to the uh the tur what makes it turbid, the turbidity, and uh helps clarify the stock over time. It's the actual the proteins are charged and they actually hold on to um they hold on to the stuff that's making it cloudy.
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+[20:50] And he's saying he thinks it's the ginger that's uh messing it up, and what the hell is going on? Now uh I don't actually know that it's the egg white specifically that's uh having a problem with the ginger. It might actually be the meat and the binding of the muscle proteins together because ginger uh well, you know, it's a well well known uh enzyme in ginger is uh uh there's a protease enzyme in it. And I believe the name of it, although I could be wrong, is and I don't know how to pronounce anything, is zingibane, zingibane. And that's a uh uh you know a protease enzyme that's gonna break things down and it's used as a meat tenderizer.
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+[21:26] And in fact, uh, you know, it's it's you know just as effective, if not more effective, than papayine and you know, all these other commercial meat tenderizers. So ginger juice is a well-known uh has been a well-known uh tenderizer uh, I believe since antiquity. So, you know, it does contain protease enzymes, and that's gonna mess up your raft and might also mess up your sausage. You could cook the ginger, but then uh uh uh beforehand that would um that would you know wipe out the enzyme uh but might change the flavor of the ginger, but these things are being cooked anyway. So if you I think if you pre-cook the ginger, you're not gonna have a uh a problem.
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+[22:00] An interesting recipe to look up uh that has to do with uh ginger and proteins is uh a Chinese uh dessert called uh ginger milk curd, where they basically they take uh uh milk and they add ginger and it causes it to curdle and set. Um so this is a uh is a well-known and interesting fact. Thanks for you know uh calling our attention to it. And another interesting thing I looked, I was looking at the technical literature on on uh ginger enzymes. And uh ginger enzymes, uh, you know, zingibane or whatever it's called, is uh very effective specifically at collagen, at breaking down connective tissue uh as opposed to it it seems to have a higher affinity for that uh than uh other protease meat tenderizing enzymes do.
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+[22:40] So uh thank again, thank you for that question. And he also uh had a question about lobsters because uh he heard that uh lobsters that are in the tanks start to feed off their own flesh, uh, which you know is true because they typically don't feed lobsters in tanks because if you feed a lobster in a tank, uh it it's gonna raise the uh you know the waste products that are in the tank and any feed that's not used up is going to uh you know ca cause problems so they tend not to feed I guess also it might cause aggression problems but I don't remember it's been a long time since I've read that kind of technical literature on lobsters. Uh but that is true but they can survive a very, very, very long time. So I don't know how I don't know how much uh flesh degradation there is just from being stored on a tank, although it's something I've heard quite a bit. The next time I speak to a lobster uh scientist I will definitely ask them that that question.
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+[23:27] The second thing is what is the enzyme that breaks down lobster meat after you kill them and uh how long till the enzyme starts to work, etc, etc. Can you prevent that enzyme from working uh by freezing it. Uh now listen this is an incredibly complicated question because there's very, very, very many enzymes on the inside of uh a lobster. Uh lobster tends to have uh breakdown of its tissue relatively quickly because the circulatory system and basically all the guts of the lobster everything's in close proximity and kind of an open system. So once the animal is dead those enzymes really start to to work quickly.
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+[24:00] There's a number of enzymes it's not just one enzyme that goes to work in lobsters. There's enzymes in it that that uh break down um that break down ATP and other uh nucleotides in and they eventually become products that uh that affect flavor. In fact um you know uh IMP inosine uh monophosphate is re is reduced to or you know uh changed to other things that have uh negative impact on quality and that is easily traced and is used as an indicator of quality because uh as that starts to progress other things like proteolytic enzymes have also been working, uh breaking down the um the the meat. So and it's it's you know very well known that uh what I forget what the thing is called, the organ on the inside of the lobster it's something like Capato pancreas or something like that, contains a w uh a variety of protease uh enzymes that are just gonna wreak havoc with the meat. Now here's the bad news.
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+[24:51] You cannot stop those enzymes by freezing because uh as you thaw the meat out, like freezing it, they they they will work somewhat as they're frozen, because unless it there's something called the eutectic point, where when you freeze a uh something below the point at which there's no water left at all, then yes, enzymatic activity stops. But in fact, what happens is is that at normal freezer temperatures there's still a good bit of unfrozen water uh left inside of your tissue, and enzymes can continue to work in that situation. But real hell breaks loose when you thaw it, because then you have a lot of water that becomes available to these enzymes that are in a hyper concentrated state uh in the remaining uh tissue of the animal, and they just go to town. And so you uh end up having huge uh degradation on uh on thawing, uh, especially if things are apparently if things are rapidly thawed. Um so uh I hope this uh answers your question.
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+[25:45] Um I plan on doing a lot more work with uh lobster soon. I've been for literally for a year and a half, I've been supposed to be pitching something to the New York Times on uh on lobsters and and what we what we do with them. Uh so look for more in the somewhat near future, although I don't know, it's Nastasha, how near future do you think of realistically? What are we doing? Two or three years out.
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+[26:04] Oh, Jesus, come on now. That's not right. Okay, anyway. Uh oh, uh another interesting thing. Not only are the enzymes working more, uh, but I found a study that says that um the muscle fibers of lobster are something like four times uh more liable to breaking by uh proteolytic enzymes than um than like mammal tissue.
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+[26:25] The one they use was rabbit. They said that the lobster meat was broken down four times uh easier than uh rabbit meat. And I only saw one paper in passing this morning, but uh anyway. And also, cool thing, the uh there's a paper called Novel Uses of Uh Fish Uh and Marine Invertebrate Enzymes in Food Industry from 2000. And they have a cool thing that uh and it's because of this question that I looked it up.
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+[26:48] Uh they have a cool technique where they use enzymes to descale fish, so the scales can basically just be washed off, and then the skin is perfect. You don't have any problem with uh with knife marks or scraping in the skin. And it's used because people tan fish skins for leather, and those guys don't want any scraping on their skin, and so the enzymatic, but I wonder whether there's any application for food industry. Fun? Maybe look it up.
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+[27:12] Yeah. Marine pepsin. Uh the one I found came from salmon. Anyway, so uh thank you for that question. And now uh for our former favorite Thai intern, of course our only Thai intern, but we do love him, weepop, uh weep pop soupy pot, uh asked about the uh old cucumber trick of rubbing cucumber ends together to get the bitterness out.
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+[27:32] So for those of you that aren't aware, there's uh uh there's an old kind of uh what do you want to call it? Like a a kitchen what do you want to call it? Old piece of kitchen wisdom? Yeah. Yeah, right.
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+[27:45] Yeah, I know. I hate it. What does that mean? Nothing. First of all, is it old wives or old wives?
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+[27:49] Wives? Why? With a Vives. Sure? Yes, I'm sure.
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+[27:54] Yeah, okay. Uh anyway, so uh old if it was old wives tail, let me. That's crazy. Anyway, so um anyway, there is a uh an old uh kitchen piece of kitchen wisdom, or maybe not wisdom, uh, that if you uh take and cut the end of a cucumber off and then the both ends of the cucumber, flip it and rub the other end with the other end, then all of a sudden the bitterness is gonna go away. Now, for those of you out there that are like, hey, cucumbers aren't bitter, what the hell is you talking about, right?
+
+[28:24] Now listen, there are wild cucumbers are bitter. Pickling cucumbers can be bitter. Um most supermarket cucumbers, in fact, are not bitter. And if they are bitter, it's the uh it's the skin that's bitter. Right?
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+[28:38] So very, very small percentage of of uh supermarket cucumbers are bitter. And certain people can't even taste the bitterness even in the cucumbers that are bitter. Um what's making it bitter and the the is uh is the thing called cucurb I can't we'll never be able to pronounce this. Cucurbitacin. B and C.
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+[28:57] And uh the the these are present in all the cucumber plants, but usually not so much in the actual fruit. Uh and if they are in the fruit, they they predominate at the stem end. So if you cut the stem end off and then peel it, you're gonna get rid of most of the bitter. But I have not found any sort of evidence for rubbing it getting rid of that bitterness, and it doesn't make any sense. If you're cutting the ends off of the cucumber, well then hell, you're getting rid of the most bitter part of the cucumber, especially if you peel it.
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+[29:20] So that's gonna help right there. The rubbing looks like it's doing something because it foams up and forms a slime. But if you think about it, uh, and I'm willing to be proven wrong on this, how the heck is you gonna pull bitterness out of a whole cucumber just by rubbing the end? I mean, I could stick a uh the end of a cucumber in a in a pot of stink for like you know, half an hour and then cut the stink off, and the rest of the cucumber is still fine. So, how are you gonna draw the bitterness out just by rubbing the end?
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+[29:45] True or false, Dazzi. True. True. She looks uh upset now. She's never gonna eat a cucumber again.
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+[29:50] Uh so anyway, so if you have a bitter cucumber, the the bad news is is that even on the same plant, some cucumbers will be bitter and some won't. Uh and you know, no one's exactly sure. It's like the stress of growing, like how old they are. But your best bet is to cut off the ends and peel it and then wash it to get rid of the bitterness, and you're going to be okay. Oh, we have a caller.
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+[30:09] Hello, caller. Hey, hello. How are you? Doing well. I had a question.
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+[30:15] I've been making a drink for a few years now. It's uh espresso with Coca-Cola and uh just put it over ice. Uh I played around with it a bunch. But the main thing is uh the way I do it is I take ice, uh espresso over the ice. But uh coca doesn't matter.
+
+[30:33] Uh what happens is uh Coca Cola foam uh stiffens up a lot. Uh I want to know if you know uh why that why that would be. Alright, Jose, I'm having I'm having a lot of trouble hearing you because your uh your cell phone your cell phone's breaking up on me. I heard what I was able to hear was espresso beverage and foam, but that what what do you say? Do you put cocoa in it?
+
+[30:53] Right. I make a uh beverage with uh espresso and Coca-Cola. Oh, Coca-Cola and espresso, okay. And the problem with the foam as well. I want to know if you know why that would be.
+
+[31:03] Yeah, so uh uh if you've ever carbonated coffee before, it's a nightmare uh in terms of foaming. It really foams up a lot. Like a lot lot. Um I've never done the research on why, but there's a you know, you know, coffee has a lot of uh espresso specifically has a lot of body to it and a lot of uh emulsified oils in it, and it has a high uh total dissolved solid content, and it's known for holding a head. Like a good espresso, right, has a crema on it.
+
+[31:33] So when you dump an espresso into a Coca-Cola and then try to uh uncap it, you're gonna get like a serious head formation. I've had uh I you know when I carbonate uh coffee beverages, I usually carbonate with uh nitrous. It's not carbonating, but carbonate with nitrous uh to add the creaminess back to the uh to the coffee beverage, like when I'm doing cold, like espresso-based cocktails, and they foam like the dickens. You just can't you can't get around it. Uh I should have done more research.
+
+[32:01] Maybe by one. Yeah, it but it's a it's a if if you're pouring it in, but when you're doing it in a bottle under pressure, it's a it's a it's hard to not have it spray all over the kitchen. It is delicious. I mean, you should try, you know. If you like that, if you do you have one of those ISI cream whippers where you are?
+
+[32:18] Uh I don't have one uh no. I've used them in the past in a lot of restaurants I've worked in. I'm planning on getting one for the restaurant uh I'm starting with now. Yeah, so just you know, just for for giggles, when you're not doing a Coca-Cola one, when you're doing a regular one, just try hitting a cold espresso beverage with a shot of nitrous, and you get a lot of that body and creaminess back that you get from a fresh shot, even more so, uh, but it doesn't have the the carbonation taste. So the carbonation taste, like there's a Manhattan soda, it's called Manhattan soda, I think, that's really good that is a carbonated coffee drink.
+
+[32:49] Uh but a lot of people, if they don't, they want that creaminess without the uh and that foaminess without the uh carbonation, you could try nitrous, and that I've had good success with that. Great. Alright, thank you. Thanks for calling in. It's my pleasure, thank you.
+
+[33:02] Let me see here. We got some more questions on the email. Uh okay, so Anthony Wong, who took our sous vide class, uh wrote in and said, uh, I mentioned that I use a stainless steel pins for cooking a duck breast instead of scoring the skin. Now, a word of and he wants to know where you can get it and what kind. Uh a word of uh background here.
+
+[33:21] When you're cooking a duck breast, you want to cut most people will tell you you want to score the duck breast, uh, you know, the skin side of it, so that when you render out a skin, when you when you crisp up the skin, the fat's gonna render out. Now, Nils Norin, uh, you know, you know, my my bar buddy, partner in crime, head of the French culinary's culinary department, uh, detests this practice because he says that where the scoring is, you're gonna overcook the meat. Uh but people who say who are pro-scoring say, well, they want more fat rendered out. So where where you know, where do you come down on this? Well, Chris Young, uh, chef, formerly the research chef at the Fat Duck Restaurant in um in uh in in England, and uh Nathan Mirvold, the uh Microsoft billionaire inventor of PowerPoint and many other things, um, you know, are coming out with uh, you know, supposedly the uh well, not supposed I've seen it, it's really good.
+
+[34:10] World, you know, the greatest tech cookbook ever written. It's a huge magnum opus. It's coming out at the end of the year. Um, they demonstrated a technique last year at Starshest where they said, Well, what if you took a dog brush and uh, you know, like you go, it's like a steel dog brush. You just go to a pet store, make sure you get one that's stainless steel, and it's got zillions of little tiny stainless steel spines on it, and you just smack the duck breast with this uh dog brush a couple times, and it makes uh all these micro perforations in the skin, and they allow the fat to render out of the duck breast without uh without giving you enough area to overcook the meat that's underneath.
+
+[34:48] And you know what? We've tested it several times, and it's a fantastic idea. So I think anyone that cooks duck breast on a regular, you know, regular basis needs to go buy a dog brush. Uh please don't use the brush you've already used on your dog. That's gross.
+
+[35:02] Go get a brand new dog brush. I think they're like three dollars, they're four dollars. You can get them at any pet food store, uh, pet store or you know, pet supply mart. Right. And uh they do they do uh they do wonders.
+
+[35:13] So uh break time. All right, I've been told we're going to our next commercial break, so call your questions in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. If you wanna get down with a bug, this is the way you do it. Walk up and rap to it.
+
+[35:31] Put your hand on a lower left. Oh you know, yeah, and this is what you rap to I mean, come on like you should come on with you, come on, yeah. Give me a thing, what you say, give me what you say, give him a thing, like what you say, give me what you say, give him a thing, give you say so good, what you say let's get it up, give me the stone to the fight. Give him a thing, say, give him a thing, like you say, baby. Give me a thing, what you say, give me what you say, give him a thing, say me a chance to say, give him a thing, say, Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[37:25] Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And we have a caller. Hello, caller. You're on the air.
+
+[37:33] Hi. Hi, Dave. How are you? Hey. Um I had a question about steak.
+
+[37:38] Oh, good. I like steak. I'm a big fan of steak, especially uh ribeyes and grass-fed ribeyes. Nice. Uh, but sometimes uh when I've cooked the steak, there sometimes it's this really hard sort of tendon that runs through it, and I'm not sure what the reason for that is or or what to what to do with those.
+
+[37:57] Uh I mean the the silver skin or the actual piece of connective tissue that is uh that little mean that that one little section on the upper part of the muscle that's something that's in one part of it but not the other. There's not there's not a lot you can do about that. As far as I know, you you have to kind of cut it out. I tend to trim it. I mean, one thing you can do, you can see it before you before you cook it, right?
+
+[38:17] Um and you can trim that out and then uh and then re-glue it back together with uh transglutaminase. I can't remember what that's made out of. I mean, I I don't think that's gonna render even under long cooking. I could be wrong. I don't remember whether that does, but you of course you're never gonna cook that kind of meat long enough to render it in it.
+
+[38:37] So I don't think short of removing it and gluing it back together, which I have done many times, I don't know of a of a good way to get that done. Do you have access to meat glue? Uh no, I don't, but I do I do have a circulator. Okay. Yeah, you know, but the problem is this.
+
+[38:54] So let's s okay. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, uh, you know, in uh certain cuts of steak, like in like a long as you go along the uh the you know the the rib steak, you'll see that there's certain ones that have these little like dots in the in the where in between the two muscle parts that are you know that don't they can stay hard basically. Uh now the the there's a an enzyme called transglutaminase, activa transglutaminase that will glue proteins together and it's very simple to use. Uh problem is you have to buy a whole bag of it, and I have a question on that actually came in on an email and answer in a minute. Um, but they can rebond the meat together, and I use it for taking out pieces of connective tissue and then gluing meat back together.
+
+[39:34] Um and that's viable, but you know, you have to have that stuff lying around. Uh the problem with circulators with that is that to render a piece, if it was connective tissue, which is gonna get soft with long cooking, and I don't know that that's the case. Uh at the temperatures you're gonna want to cook a ribeye, which is roughly 55 degrees Celsius, um, it would take uh several days to really break it down. And um, you know, in the tests that we've done with with ribeyes, you don't want to cook them more than about um you know, you know, six hours. We've done one hour, two hours, three hours, four hours, five hours, six hours, seven hours, eight hours, nine hours, ten hours, and overnight on ribeyes.
+
+[40:14] And uh we like them uh best in the ribey's that is in the two to four hour range, and we like them okay, you know, up to about six. At eight, we feel that they're l you know starting to take on kind of a little bit of a squashy texture, and that it gets fibery as you chew. And that long, long cooking on ribeye is not going to be necessarily uh so good for it. So I don't know that you have a long cooking way of uh getting out of it. Hey, you know, you could do if you don't have meat glue though, you can still cut out that that that portion that you don't like and uh and then basically almost you c I don't know what this is gonna work.
+
+[40:51] You could try dusting it. I don't think gelatin's gonna hold it together at the high temperature. I'm trying to think of something you can use other than um other than meat glue, because all you really want to have to do is bind it together. Do you have a vacuum uh sealer as well? Yeah, I do.
+
+[41:05] I mean, you could try sprinkling a little bit of uh of uh like salt and then some sort of uh jelly, it's gonna melt when you do it, but if you vacuum it together, it's gonna hold together while you cook it, and it'll probably hold together while you sear it, but then as you cut it on the plate, obviously you're gonna see that you've trimmed out a piece of the of the muscle, you know. Sorry, I couldn't be more helpful on this one. No, it just sounds like I have to get some uh transglue mix. Yeah, you definitely definitely do. You definitely do.
+
+[41:32] Uh well uh thanks for calling in. That leads great into our next question from Matt, who says um he's been reading up on transglutaminase after seeing the uh Iron Chef uh episode where my brother-in-law Wiley Dufrain used it to make uh unfortunately not shrimp noodles, tilapia noodles. tilapia is you know not our favorite fish. Anyway, uh he said that he really wants to start using it, but he has a couple questions. Do you know of a supplier who sells quantities smaller than the $90 bags online, which are one kilo, uh either an online supplier or a brick and mortar store in Boston or New York?
+
+[42:03] Uh and the short answer is no, I do not. It used to be that um, and it might still be for all I know that if you call up um a Ginamoto, the company that makes it, it's a Ginamoto makes uh transglutaminase enzyme, which is meat glue, the stuff that glues proteins together. You sprinkle it on like powder sugar and the meat she sticks together. It's great stuff. They make it uh Agenamoto under Aji Foods USA makes it and the brand name they use is Activa and the one that you want to get to start with is Activa RM.
+
+[42:33] They used to give out like small 200 gram I think uh sample packs to chefs but the the chef community is taken to it so much they might no longer give out sample packs. And unfortunately Agenamoto does not sell increments smaller than one kilo and because they come packed direct from a Ginamoto in one kilo packs and not in like 50 pound sacks the way that um the way that like you know most powders and hydrocolates come, companies haven't been willing to break them down into smaller packs and a Ginamoto hasn't been willing to make available for to pay for their sample packs. Now if a Ginamoto just said hey look we're gonna quadruple the amount of sample packs we're gonna make and then just charge three times as much per pound people would still buy it because people would rather to test spend fifteen bucks on 200 grams or 20 bucks on 200 grams than um then shelling off for a whole kilo if they don't know if they're gonna use it over time. Especially if they figure they're not going to use it before it goes bad. Now we have toyed with the idea cooking issues of making that enzyme available the same way we make uh Pectanex Ultra SPL and Pectanex Smash uh you know the the miracle pectin uh breaking down enzymes that make the world's greatest French fry and the world's greatest juices.
+
+[43:48] But uh the but we decided against it because we didn't know that we wanted to get in the business of cutting open that uh you know retail pack and then repacking it and selling it. Um maybe we should. I don't know. It's something we should. Yeah, I mean, I have to figure out whether or not uh whether or not it's a problem to do it, or whether or not you know we're gonna run into any issues with it.
+
+[44:09] Um but you know, it would be useful to people. So I apologize that there is no way, but here's what here's what you should do. You should get together with some buddies. You should uh split a package of it, and then when you buy it, make sure that you cut it open, you instantly get all the air out and store it in the freezer, and it will last a good long time in the freezer, like six, six, eight months in the freezer. Uh, and I'm sure you'll get good good use out of it.
+
+[44:31] So I mean it's it's definitely worth getting if you can split the bag with like you know, four or five people, even more so. Um but anyway, I'm sorry I couldn't be more help with that. But then the uh the second part of the question is can meat glue be used with non meat proteins? Uh could you do something interesting with nuts, for example? Well, I've never done anything with nuts, but it does make tofu firmer.
+
+[44:49] And uh, you know, you can make, for instance, peanut tofu, but peanut tofu is very, very soft and it's very hard to get to s to hold together. So perhaps you could use, and this is perhaps because I've never done it. Perhaps you could use transglutaminase to help crosslink proteins in like a peanut curd, for example, and then make uh a more effective peanut tofu. Because peanut tofu is a real pain in the butt, it really clogs things up. It's hard to get it to set up nicely.
+
+[45:13] It's delicious when you get it right though, so that's possible. Um so yeah, transglutaminase works on uh any any protein like that. Uh works like I say, I haven't tried nuts, but it works on cheese. You can glue things to cheese, works on egg yolk, it thickens up egg yolk quite nicely, and you can uh glue things to egg yolks. We glue bacon to egg yolks, which is meat, but you could glue cheese to an egg yolk, I guess.
+
+[45:35] Um, you know, any protein like that. I mean, the problem with slurries, if there's not enough protein and there's too much fat, like in a nut paste, then the protein doesn't have anything to bind on to, and it makes for very kind of weak bonds. And so in certain situations, it tends to act more as a thickener than as a uh than as a you know a gluing agent. They also have one for dairy uh that's used for yogurt to make uh yogurt setup better, but is uh used by uh like Johnny Azini to make ricotta dumplings uh or gnucke rather. So yes, it will bond any anyone or it will it will be active on any one of those um on any one of those proteins.
+
+[46:11] Um there's a lot of there's a lot of things yet to be done with it. Wiley, my brother-in-law, Wally Defrain, he has a very, very interesting application. Unfortunately, it's meat because it uses gelatin, but basically he uses uh transglutaminase to crosslink gelatin so that it doesn't melt anymore, and he makes sheets out of uh vegetables like pasta, then lets it set overnight with the transglutaminase, and it uh once the gelatin sets up and cross-links, it no longer melts but stays flexible like a noodle. And these things can be fried into crisps or used as pasta. It's a fantastic technique.
+
+[46:40] You can look for it on the internet. That one you want to use the um activa that there's a special one called TI that's just the enzyme. It doesn't have uh the the most of the ones we use have casein or added gelatin in it. You want to make sure you use the one that's just straight enzyme for that technique. But uh hopefully that's helpful, and I wish you luck in your in your transglutaminase journeys.
+
+[47:00] Uh I have another question from Ray in uh DC. Hi, Ray. Uh, and uh he likes our show, which is nice. Thank you. Uh and uh a friend of his went to a place called PX in Alexandria, V uh Alexandria, Virginia, uh, and uh and he said they had a uh drink that was made with tobacco, uh tobacco in the drink, tobacco infused, and he thinks it's made with bourbon.
+
+[47:23] Uh well that place PX is uh the the guy there's a guy named Todd Thrasher, and for a number of years now, I think three or four, he's been well known for uh infusing um cocktail uh cocktails with tobacco. Um and I forget I I saw him interviewed on it once and it was uh something about like his ch childhood memories. I think he grew up maybe near a tobacco farm. Anyway, it has a lot of childhood memories for him and the smell of tobacco. I believe he does not infuse the tobacco into the bourbon.
+
+[47:50] He infuses it into, I believe, water and then adds the tobacco water and sear as a syrup to the bourbon. That's I think how he does it. Uh, but I'm not sure, uh, because I don't think he publishes his recipe. Now uh the second part of that question was what do you think about the health effects of that? Well, it's definitely probably you know, uh ingesting it that way is definitely, you know, less harmful than um than smoking it, uh, because you know, a lot of the harmful products in tobacco come from combustion of tobacco.
+
+[48:21] But uh it's not risk-free, obviously. You know, I don't know what the long-term effects of in of ingestion are. Um, you know, but nicotine by itself has, you know, effects on your um on your cardiovascular system. Uh, you know, uh if you ingested huge amounts of it, for any of you who have ever tried uh dipping tobacco, you know, uh like you know, the stuff dip that you put in your lip and have accidentally swallowed the juices, you know that concentrated tobacco juices uh you know make throw up like a demon. At least they make me throw up like a demon.
+
+[48:51] Apparently if you dip all day every day, you can start swallowing the juices without spitting and not vomit. But the one time I was in my buddy Charlie's uh room when I was in high school and he gave me some dip, and then he said, Why aren't you spitting? And I said, You need to spit, and thirty seconds later, his entire room was coated with my lunch. Like uh, you know, f from that on in, I was like, large concentrations of tobacco juice don't sit well, literally in your stomach. And so uh, you know, I doubt he's putting enough tobacco in to have that kind of effect, which means he's probably putting a very small amount in, which means that any health effect is probably small.
+
+[49:23] Uh, you know, especially because how many are you drinking? I don't know. Um what do you think, Stasi? I don't like tobacco. Yeah, no.
+
+[49:30] All right, wait. So I hope that hope that answers uh your question. And Ray also says that he's been uh infusing vodka using our infusion technique, and uh we appreciate we appreciate uh thank you for your question. Um now, Curtis wrote in and he said, regarding freezing and enzymes, uh, because we were talking about that earlier. Then this is like live email, crazy.
+
+[49:48] Uh I have found that pork tenderloin is much more tender when frozen than thawed as compared with fresh. Well, uh I haven't done the test myself, but that's entirely possible. If you slow freeze a piece of meat, what happens is is as you're freezing it, uh water is drawn out of the tissue and forms ice crystals. The slower that it's frozen, the the bigger the ice crystals are, and they can have a tendency to uh not only puncture the uh meat uh cells so that when you thaw you get lost, but also those big ones are harder to reabsorb back into the meat tissue as it thaws. So when you're freezing something, it's think of it as a partial dehydration, and when you're thawing it, the meat is reabsorbing that liquid.
+
+[50:26] Now, the more something drips liquid when it's thawed, the more damage uh you've done to the meat. Now, that damage though, it's possible, I haven't studied it, but it's possible that that actually could make it more tender as long as you're not cooking it to the point where it's gonna dry out again. So it's in entirely uh uh, and also it's entirely possible, as you say in your question, that the uh that the proteolytic enzymes uh present in the meat uh kick into overdrive as they're thawed. But I don't know that information off the top of my head. I'm gonna have to do some uh research.
+
+[51:03] So Stasi, if you want to rejot this question down, I'll try and look for uh I'll try and look for freeze thaw tenderizing in the scientific literature over the course of the week. It's an interesting question. I hadn't thought of it. But it's probably, you know, the effect um, which again I haven't tested, is probably a multi, like a multifactorial thing of a jig. Right?
+
+[51:25] Anywho. All right, so we we were trying to call our good buddy Mark Ladner for this next question. Mark Ladner is a chef at Del Posto and a tall man. How tall is uh Mark Ladner? Six ten.
+
+[51:36] Uh six ten, crazy. He's like six four, six five. So he is tall. He's tall. Uh anyway, uh this this will make sense uh in the next question.
+
+[51:45] So um Steve writes in and said uh a friend whose name is uh Colleen, right? Uh is a is a tall woman. She is uh six foot seven. It's tall. Yeah, just under six foot seven, actually, six foot six, short.
+
+[52:00] Yeah. Not even six foot seven. No. So she's six foot, basically six foot seven. She loves to cook, but she gets terrible back pains when working in the kitchen, uh, particularly when preparing food.
+
+[52:10] And so they have uh, you know, you know, the standard countertops are 36 inches high and is you know inadequate for her. Uh they did some calculations and they figure that uh the average countertop is built for someone who's five four to five five. They think it's based on kind of uh, you know, like uh the average World War II era housewife. Is that uh and that so they constructed a butcher block that's 13 inches uh 13 and a half inches uh high, you know, a table that fits on top of the countertop that she can do her her cutting on. Um but and she loves it.
+
+[52:43] Mm-hmm. She loves it, and you can look on the internets, there's a pictures of her using it and she enjoys it. Uh but she's enrolling in a culinary school, and the question is what can be done for a very tall cook? Does she have to bend over or can she bring something like her modified butcher block uh with her to school, or are there other approaches? Well, that's an interesting question.
+
+[53:02] First of all, uh I don't know that six five that six five, six four is actually I mean, I haven't read I'm sure you've read the studies, I haven't. I'm 5'10, and I like countertop heights a lot. Um when they're even like a couple inches taller, like let's say like they were five inches taller for me, I get fatigued because of the way that I'm used to to cooking. So a lot of how you a lot of uh of what's happening with your with your back and working at a countertop has to do with how you position yourself at the counter, like what your stance is and where your where your wrist and your arm is. So I I'm used to working at 36, so when you go lower or you go higher, like I get t I get totally messed up, right?
+
+[53:43] Um now but that's because I'm used to that. Now I stood on a stool that made me as tall as Colleen, right? And indeed, my arms, I could not get a comfortable stance no matter how I tried. Now, of course, I'm sure Colleen's arms are longer than mine, you know what I mean? I mean, you know, you know, so I don't know whether it's 100%, you know, accurate, but I can see the definite need for someone that height to increase the the height of their countertop.
+
+[54:11] Now, here's the problem. If you're going to a cooking school, I think what what you're gonna do depends entirely on why you're going to cooking school and what kind of cooking school you're going to. If you um I was had this discussion with my wife's an architect, and I was having this discussion with her last night after this question came in. Well, for instance, would a workplace be required to uh allow you to bring something in because of your height? Could could you, for instance, go in, and I'm obviously I'm not saying being tall is a disability, you know.
+
+[54:43] I wish I was tall. You know what I mean? But like in other words, we have in the US, we have the American Disabilities Act, and you can you you have to make the workplace, with the exception of a couple jobs like airline, you know, a flight attendant and whatnot, safety jobs like that, you have to make the workplace accessible to anyone based on something that's classified as a disability. But I don't know that I don't know that you would classify being um too tall for the countertops as something that a workplace would necessarily have to make compensation for. But I don't know.
+
+[55:13] It's a very interesting question. Um, if you're going to cooking school and you're not interested in working in a pro kitchen, you know, for the for years and years, then by all means I would say, you know, ask them, let you bring it in and use it. You know, there's no reason to break your back. Uh but uh if you're gonna be working in professional kitchens for you know a long, long time, you know, I would I would recommend at least trying to figure out some way to modify your your stance or modify something, or maybe use like a weightlifting belt or something that can help support your back. I don't know whether that's helpful because my you know, I was talking to my wife, again, architect and designer, and she's like, there's two choices modify your environment or modify yourself.
+
+[55:56] And the and the and what this boils down to is I don't know if you're going to be able to modify your environment, if you're gonna go out into the professional cooking environment. And if you can't modify your environment, then the only thing left is modify yourself. And that could be with supports for your back or or uh, you know, Alton Brown is apparently very tall, and he designed these knives that have like a uh a bend in the handle so that he doesn't have to bring his wrist all the way down to do the chopping. Now for me, they're goofy because you know I'm short, and you know, I'm 5'10, and so regular knives work great. But you know, I don't know whether she's tried uh these knives with the bend in the handle that are designed specifically for tall people and to make up for the um the difference in height and countertops.
+
+[56:39] So it's an interesting question. I don't have a uh resolution. Um what do you think, Zazi? I I think I don't know. I mean, well, but then I told you about the other part where we knew the guy who was really tiny.
+
+[56:52] Well, Robin, he still works in a kit a professional kitchen. That's easier to modify, I think. Oh, a stool. Yeah, or something. But you know, again, it's a very interesting question, and uh, I wish, you know, I'm gonna get in touch with some uh some cooks who are very, very tall and some cooks who are not so tall and uh you know, you know, very untall.
+
+[57:13] And we will and we'll try to figure out what the uh what the answer is because I think it's I think it's super interesting. But uh the long story short, if you're not gonna go pro into a professional kitchen, and by the way, I I never think any professional kitchen should discriminate against anyone for any reason, obviously. But I'm just saying, like, what can you realize realistically expect to happen when you go to a kitchen? That's the real question. It's not what they should do.
+
+[57:35] We all know what my stepfather said should, you know, I can't get into it with the involved scores. But like it's not what they should do, it's what they will do, is what you need to worry about. Um, but if you're not in it to go pro, um, you know, I think uh a long talk with the cooking school, uh, I'm sure they would like to have her money. Uh so that I'm sure they will make some accommodation. Am I wrong about this?
+
+[57:56] I mean, I don't see it as being that disruptive to the uh class. I think she has her own station and everything. Yeah, I mean, it's not like you know, she's saying, Hey, I need to listen to loud music while I cook or I can't learn, you know, which would be disruptive to the rest of the class. So, you know, I don't see why they wouldn't. But uh anyway, hopefully this is helpful and you've uh raised definitely an interesting question that I will be thinking more about.
+
+[58:14] I love ergonomics uh and design, so uh I'll think more about this problem. And thank you all for listening to Cooking Issues. This year uh this week's cooking issues brought to you by Whole Foods Market and the uh craft beer week cooking issues. Thanks so much. Oh you did that.
+
+[58:38] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of ten, when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and the customers at Barter House tries to culture and and cultivate, I think are are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take a an allocation of an 80 case made wine that they've got something special and it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in. And you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth degree, like we're not making a hundred thousand cases of Pinot Grigio and you know, flogging them all over New York, but the customers that get wine from us are kind of believing the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young winemakers who have a passion for doing it, and and we supply them with a market and we allow them to get their product out there to otherwise an untapped uh group of people. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner.
+
+[1:24] Don't know where I'm at. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with all your cooking questions. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, the driver of the technological bus. All right. Uh call in all your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:45] That's 718-497-2128. We'll be here for about the next forty-five minutes. Nasasha, I hear we already have a caller, yeah? Yeah, we do. Nice.
+
+[1:52] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hello, uh, this is Obi. I'm all the way out in Tucson, Arizona. Nice. Um a couple of questions.
+
+[2:01] Uh I've got a CVAP. I'm I'm a chef, uh, and we we got a CVAP in our kitchen not too long ago. Um and we've done a couple things, a couple cool things with it. Did kind of uh uh, you know, we did a 48 hour short rib just the other day and it turned out really, really good. In the bag or not in the bag?
+
+[2:19] In a bag in in uh Ziploc, you know, with just a little bit of uh a little bit of stock, and uh it turned out amazing. It was it was kind of weird because um the temperature does shift in them. What I had to do was I have a um I can't remember what model is it, the five five oh five hundred something. Yeah, I don't know them by model number anyway, I just know them by looking at them. Yeah, the well it's I the the thing I had to do was to keep it on um keep it on the load cycle, like not actually even press cook.
+
+[2:53] And uh it kept the temperature more steady. Uh that's hot. But um I it kept it around between thirty-four uh one thirty-four and one thirty-six degrees. And uh they came out really, really good. Uh but my question was I mean, I'm sure you've messed with them a lot, and I was just wondering if there was any other cool things that that uh that you guys had done with them.
+
+[3:13] Okay, well for well, just before we get into it, but for those of who don't know what a CVAP is, for our listeners, a CVAP is a type of uh uh oven originally designed to hold actually Kentucky Fried Chicken. It was invented by a guy by the name of Winston, uh actually for Kentucky Fried Chicken. He was friends with Colonel Sanders, and they built this thing. It's basically a Bain Marie in the bottom of a holding oven. And you adjust the water temperature of the Bane Marie and the temperature of the oven separately, and you can adjust the humidity in there and you can keep things uh, you know, nicely for a really, really long time.
+
+[3:43] When uh the sous vide uh crackdown happened in the New York City with the health department about four or five years ago, uh CVAPs all of a sudden became very, very popular because chefs could use them to do low temperature cooking, uh very accurate low temperature cooking with fish. Uh and so uh and here's where I get in that's just the background. Here's where I get into your actual question. A lot of chefs here in New York retrofitted CVAPs into their kitchens because uh either they couldn't afford a combi oven right away, uh, or they couldn't retrofit because uh the venting requirements of a combi oven. A uh C C VAP ovens are a lot less expensive than a COMBY oven, and and they don't require venting or drains, and they take up a lot less power.
+
+[4:19] And they're fairly accurate, actually. Uh I don't know what's going on with yours, but Nathan Mirvold and Chris Young, who are coming out with the Uber Tech book at the end of this year, have done uh independent tests on CVAPs, and they hold about two degrees with a plus or minus two degrees uh accuracy uh over the long haul. And I think they they're slightly better now than they used to be. It depends a lot on temperature and the size of the oven you're using. Smaller ovens, obviously more accurate.
+
+[4:42] Or not obviously, but they are. And uh the uh so one thing I really recommend you try out there is fish, not in the bag. So you can do really quick work with fish. You know, you set the temperature 10 uh 15 degrees higher than you want the fish to go, and you know, you depending on the size of the portion, you're looking at like a 10 to 12 minute uh cook time in in the CVAP, and a lot of chefs in New York move to this because they're not allowed to cook fish in the bag. So the CVAP is very, very good at low temperature work, uh direct service, low temperature work not in the bag.
+
+[5:10] The one thing you have to worry is when you open and close it a lot, it starts sucking a little bit of wind, and you're gonna have to increase your cook times a little bit. Um it's also good for hamburgers, anything like that that you want to keep. Now, I don't really like this. If we did hamburgers, hamburger's worked great in it. Yeah.
+
+[5:24] Hamburgers were awesome. I mean, you have to post sear them because things lose the texture on the outside in uh in a CVAP after they've been sitting there a while. But uh Howard Richardson, who's the guy at the company that you're gonna want to talk to if you have any problems, he's the rep. His favorite demo in uh, you know, when he goes out to the NRA, the National Restaurant Show, not the National Rifle Association show, is uh to hold tortilla chips in him because you can use them actually with in very low humidity uh circumstances to keep stuff hot without drying out. It's completely counterintuitive that you could have a water bath in the bottom of something and hold tortilla chips in it.
+
+[5:54] But yeah, they were talking about when I first bought it, they were talking about how good steam is like dry steam or something. Well, yeah, it's not this dry steam is really just hot steam, so it's not uh see not this is it's it's different, it's literally setting the humidity level. But uh I plan on doing a lot on CVAPs in our next uh installment of the uh low temperature primer. If I ever write it, Nastasha's rolling her eyes at me right now because I've been very far behind. But uh I guess we'll be coming back.
+
+[6:18] We came up with a beautiful prime rib. I mean, we've we've been trying I've I don't know how many prime ribs I've put through it, and we came up with a formula that pr produces an awesome prime rib. Yeah, no, I mean it's uh it's fantastic at those kind of things and very economical to run. Uh but you know what you should do uh phone in with some more specific ones next week. I'm gonna think more about specific CVAPs as I think more about uh recipes, but it's definitely a very important piece of equipment.
+
+[6:41] It's becoming very very popular. Thanks so much for your call. We have another call. Yeah, we do. Hello, you're on the air.
+
+[6:47] Hi, this is Corbin from San Diego. Hey Corbin, how are you doing? Good. Um, so I recently had an opportunity to pick up a used VWR circulator from a uh university surplus auction. I I got it real cheap.
+
+[7:01] It was only like fifty dollars. But now I'm trying to figure out how to sterilize it, clean it, and go through it and make sure all the key components are still working. Do you have any recommendations? Yeah, do you know what kind of lab it was in? Um I don't.
+
+[7:15] They don't have any information like that. Okay. Um so most like did it have a lot of oil deposits on it or no? It's pretty clean, but the the coils have a little bit of like uh calcium deposits on it. But other than that, not not too bad.
+
+[7:31] Okay, so it was probably used in water as opposed to in oil. It's a lot easier to clean that way. Uh I would suggest um spraying everything with a fairly concentrated bleach solution and then letting that bleach solution soak into the coils. You want to make sure for first you actually you should go over with a toothbrush and get all of the actual deposits. Any deposit that's on the uh uh on the circulator itself is going to harbor uh evil things even after it's been soaked in bleach, right?
+
+[8:00] So the first thing you want to do is get off any sort of deposits. Then you're gonna want to circulate in it uh like a CLR tablet, which is gonna you know the the uh calcium lime rust remover, and that's gonna get rid of uh the calcium deposits, and then after that I would soak it for a while in uh a fairly concentrated bleach solution, and that's gonna kill anything that remains into from a biological standpoint. I would wipe down the entire surface of the piece of equipment with with uh with bleach, uh, you know, try not to you know don't have it plugged in. Duh. And uh and then um you know, from there on out after she dries, and if you want, you can circulate it, you know, up to boiling to be darn sure.
+
+[8:37] But at that point you should have killed everything. Now uh how long the circulator is gonna last depends on how long it was run and what kind of care they took in it, right? The older circulators have a problem with the bearing. The bearings on them tend to go bad. If she starts to squeak and squeal on you, then you can put some WD uh I wouldn't put WD forty actually, because you know it's not food grade, but if you put a food grade lubricant on the bearing, you'll extend the life cycle by a couple of months, probably of hard usage, I mean restaurant-style usage.
+
+[8:59] Um I would also open up the circulator. Are you good with electricity or no? Yeah, I'm pretty good. Okay, open up the back of the circulator. Uh, all of the old circulators have a lot of uh contact points with spade terminals in them to make electrical connections on the inside of the unit.
+
+[9:17] I would uh take a file and I would file them clean. They become resistors because they get uh water vapor or they corrode. When they corrode, they become resistors, and you lose uh uh, you know, you basically you start generating heat there. And I've seen a lot of circulators fail that way. So I would go to all the internal connections and I would just make sure they're good and clean, uh, and that's gonna extend the life of the circulator another good long, good long chunk of time.
+
+[9:39] So uh the the first thing to usually go is the is the bearings on the old ones, and the second thing is usually the electrical connections. Uh I've had occasional ones, but not with VWRs, but uh certain old Lauda ones used to have problems with their triacs blowing, in which case you need to then be able to uh replace the triact, which is a little more challenging than other things, but still possible. But that's in general what dies on them. Is that but is that a good uh roadmap for you? Yeah, that's great.
+
+[10:02] Exactly what I was looking for. Super, right into the blog and tell us how it worked. I'm always curious about these kind of things. Thanks so much for your call. Okay, thank you.
+
+[10:10] We have one more? Yeah. No. Wait, let's take a break, I think Jack is saying. Oh, we gotta take a person's been waiting.
+
+[10:15] All right, all right, we'll take a break. We'll be back with cooking issues. Oh! How you feel, brother? Feeling good.
+
+[10:23] You feel good? So much bone, brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. I don't want to people to know you're in, yeah.
+
+[10:31] How you feel, fella? Get down! Sure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[10:42] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Don't take them up, Brad. We gotta take you high.
+
+[11:06] Alright. You wanna do it again? Yeah, let's go on. We gotta take you high. Brother.
+
+[11:20] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two cores. Now alright. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there.
+
+[11:37] Take us higher. Brad! Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Today brought to you by the Barter House. They poured us a nice wine, uh, Jules, which is a Syrah Granage, and I have no idea where it's from.
+
+[11:59] Uh call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And as I feared, Nastasha, we lost our caller over uh over the phone during the break. Uh and uh one more thing.
+
+[12:13] I have a shout shout out to the best device ever built. We're in a uh studio that's in basically a working farm in the middle of Brooklyn, so we have uh fly problem here, right, Nastasha in the studio? And they've bought these electric fly rackets, which are about the greatest things I think ever invented, no? It's just the greatest thing ever. It's like uh, I don't know, it's just so satisfying.
+
+[12:29] It's like I'm gonna kill a fly, see whether you can hear it on. No, I'll we'll try it later. Anyway, uh because I have too many questions to get to to uh to meander about with uh electric flies water problems. Okay, Red writes in, he says, Dave, uh, I need a recipe for bone in chicken thighs or legs, uh, time and temperature when you're cooking low temperature. Now, uh, for those of you who I don't know who don't know me or don't know what we do, low temperature cooking is one of the most important uh new, I want to say new, like the past 10 years, kind of ways to cook in uh in professional kitchens and increasingly in home kitchens, you can now go into Williams and Sonoma, Williams and Sonoma?
+
+[13:04] Williams and Oma. William Sonoma, and uh buy an immersion circulator, which is kind of the best piece of equipment to start doing this kind of work with uh and do it. Now, uh the problem is is that when you put something like chicken and you cook at low low temperature, by the way, you you're gonna want to cook uh chicken legs around 64 or 65 degrees Celsius, in my opinion. Uh right in that range. I wouldn't do 63, I wouldn't even really do 64 for lys and uh thighs and legs.
+
+[13:27] I would do uh I would do 65 Celsius. So I apologize uh for not knowing what that is in Fahrenheit, but uh you know, you use Google. Uh the um here's the main problem. You don't want to do a bone in uh chicken thigh or leg in a vacuum or a very high vacuum. And here's the reason why.
+
+[13:44] The inside of bones, uh chicken bones, even particularly, are hollow and they have in them a red uh kind of gunk on the inside. When you suck a vacuum on on these things, what happens is that red gunk is pulled out of the bones and goes along the meat near the bone, and then that meat becomes permanently red, okay? Uh, and nobody likes to eat permanently red uh chicken meat. They just don't they don't like it. They say it's not cooked, it's not cooked.
+
+[14:08] I've uh as a test, I have made it where I've cooked it for a long time at you know at these temperatures that I know are cooked. The texture is cooked, you have people close their eyes, they like it, uh they look at it and they just won't put it in their mouth. And this is you know, trained people, this is like my family and friends. So you you you really want to be sure not to suck too high a vacuum. The other problem is if you cook very slowly in one of these uh in these situations, you might still get uh this phenomenon, what we call persistent pinking.
+
+[14:33] If that happens to you, you're gonna have to cook it faster, which means jacking the temperature up a little bit, maybe to like 70, and then only cooking it for like 30, 35 minutes. I do mine at 65 uh 64 or 65 Celsius for about 45 minutes. If they're thin pieces, you don't want to have them all glumped together because you want the heat to penetrate rather quickly. You don't want them to take a long time to get up to temperature because then you're gonna have more problems with the red not going away and it's staying red. Uh uh so you know, if you have a problem with the with the red not going away, I recommend just boning them, getting them to go flat, and then you can cook them very uh fairly quickly and you won't have that problem.
+
+[15:07] Hope that answers your question, Red, and good luck with the uh with the chicken. Uh Nastasha just pointed out that the electric fly swatter, which I promised I wouldn't talk about anymore, is also a lizard killer, although that seems rather gruesome. So gruesome. Anyway, okay. Uh so we have a call, uh sorry, a um uh what's it called?
+
+[15:26] Question email, yeah, a question from Nathan. It says, uh so there's a lot of uh low temp and vacuum questions uh having to do with meat, and it's true. There's a lot of like in protein questions. And he has a vegetable question. When you roast beets, he can never seem to get them to be uniformly cooked.
+
+[15:38] One side is too crispy, the other side is too hard, presumably undercooked, and the whole thing dries out. He tries wrapping it in foil, olive oil, etc. etc. ovens at 350, ovens at 400, it's all a big it's all a big nightmare for Nathan, the beets. Well, uh, this is an excellent application of low temperature cooking.
+
+[15:54] What happens when you put uh and specifically sous vide, although you could probably do it in a Ziploc, um the what happens the whole advantage of putting something in a bag right is that nothing gets in and nothing gets out right so you're not leaching flavors out and you're also not evaporating much moisture off the surface of your of your product right and also it's it's different from putting it into water where then the water or whatever cooking medium you're using is actually leaching into the product right so um what it basically is like is it's like roasting even though you're doing it in water in a bag it's like roasting in the sense that you're not um you're not you know inside of a poaching liquid but uh on the other hand it doesn't get those those roasted flavors like it's not gonna get dehydrate on the outside you're not gonna get those brown flavors so what I would recommend for a beet is I would uh I would peel it unlike you do I think the reason you don't peel it when you put it into an oven is you don't want it to bleed out into your oven and you also don't want it to lose a lot of moisture and so the skin is preventing that kind of moisture loss when you're on the uh if you heard that pop in the background that was Nastasha kick killing a fly with the electric fly zapper um so when you have it in the bag right you're preventing that kind of moisture loss so I go ahead and peel it beforehand because inside the bag I think you're gonna have a tendency for the earthy notes on the skin to kind of get into the whole beet and I don't think you're gonna want that very much so I would peel it put it in the bag you could put any kind of fat uh in it you want even up to you know no fat at all but I would put a little fat in uh some sort of you know either solid or liquid neutral fat I wouldn't use olive oil it tends to flavor in the like the good quality olive oil that I like for finishing I don't really like so much when you cook in the bag and then you can just simmer it in a pot of in a pot of water. Now the the thing is is that unlike it's not like boiling a vegetable, the times are closer to roasting because there's not a lot of excess water inside the bag to break down the vegetable. That's the whole benefit because it's like roasting. Okay. So what you're gonna have to do is is you're gonna have to cook these vegetables simmering in the pot for as long as you would have to basically roast it, sometimes even longer.
+
+[17:46] Okay. And so uh you want to keep it in and keep uh testing it by pinching with your fingers and seeing where when it's done. Make sure the sides of the bag don't hit the um the side of your pot. If they do, um, you're gonna be in trouble. It's gonna probably it might have a possibility it's gonna melt the bag where it where it touches the edge of the pot if flame is licking over the side of the pot.
+
+[18:04] But it's a fantastic technique. Just remember it's gonna take a good long time to do, so be patient. The other good news is it does it's not gonna really overcook on the inside of the bag too much, so it's the timing is not so critical. Just let it go basically as long as you want, pull it out, and then if you want some of those caramelized roasted flavors, throw some oil in the bottom of a pan and throw it into like a 450 or 500 degree oven just to throw some color onto the outside of your uh beets, some roasted flavor, and you're good to go. It's actually an excellent application.
+
+[18:29] Uh carrots, similarly good. All these kind of uh root vegetables and things that can be roasted are great inside of a vacuum bag, and it really keeps a bright preserved flavor, not preserved in the preserved sense, but it preserves the bright, clean, pure vegetable flavors that uh that a lot of us love. So, thanks so much for that question. Because we definitely should not overlook vegetable cookery uh when you're doing low temperature. Okay, uh now Brian calls in uh and he said he just received the NOMA cookbook, and there's a recipe for um milk skin where you add milk protein and milk uh and cream in a pot and then heat it, uh, and then you have to take this the skins off, kind of like what happens in your coffee.
+
+[19:07] And these and he says the instructions say it's advisable to first remove the few skins that form as they will be fragile and subsequent squint skins will become more and more resilient. And uh Brian wants to know what's causing this, and uh, etc. etc. And can't he just leave the uh the the thing to form longer to form a thicker skin before he pulls it off? And can he do that instead of removing the first few?
+
+[19:29] No. Uh so this is actually a complicated question. Uh and it's one that I've been interested in actually in a long time, although not in the form of milk skins, in the form of Yuba. So I'm gonna talk about Yuba and milk skins and cream skins uh and uh and how they're made and kind of what goes on. So I'm gonna start with Yuba.
+
+[19:49] Yuba is basically uh you heat soy milk in a wide shallow pan and a skin forms on the top, and then you pull the skin off and you dry it a certain amount, and that's Yuba or bean ski uh bean curd skin. And this stuff is I think delicious. And you know, I make it at home, uh, I think it's in incredibly delicious. And what what it is is is that you need and the same thing happens with milk and cream if you add milk protein as well. But uh, the same exact phenomena is happening.
+
+[20:17] You have a large surface area, uh, you're heating it underneath. It the heat needs to be above 60 Celsius, and in practice, you want to get it up higher, up near like 80, 90 Celsius, just under the boil. You don't want it to boil because then you're gonna have problems with boil over and uh with gas bubbling it, and you're gonna hurt the surface of your skin because the the top of the the top of the of the milk or or soy milk needs to be relatively placid for a good skin to form. Um so you heat it, you're partially denaturing the proteins, uh, you know, the the milk, either the soy or the milk proteins, and they're kind of floating up to the surface where they get concentrated, they aggregate onto fat droplets that are on the surface, and then all of a sudden, as they start evaporating, as they lose moisture because it's heat and you have evaporative cooling coming off the top, they form a skin, and that skin bonds together, polymerizes, and forms a permanent film. In the case of soy milk, it forms a yuba, which is a uh bean curd uh skin.
+
+[21:10] And in the case of milk, it forms a milk skin. Now, most of the time this is a nuisance to us when we're, you know, in our cup of coffee or we're heating milk or something like that. And so you try to prevent it either by uh putting a f uh, you know, a foam or a froth on top, keeping the lid covered so that it can't so that moisture can't evaporate, or you know, putting uh some sort of film over the top. But uh there are a couple of old cases where this is actually done on purpose. So there's something called cabbage cream where you would take very cream-heavy milk and you would lift uh you would lift sheets of it off and then layer it with more cream.
+
+[21:39] It's like an old Elizabethan dessert. You can read about it in Harold McGee. There's very few kind of references to it online. Uh but Yuba is really the one that's used the most often. Now the problem is is that it's actually a complicated phenomenon.
+
+[21:50] It requires uh different protein concentrations and fat concentrations. So what happens is is the first couple of ones that solidify are very delicate. They're also higher in uh protein uh and they have a different composition of proteins. As you remove that, the actual chemical uh composition of the rest of the batch is altered somewhat. And so in Yuba, as in milk skin making, the first couple are are very fragile, and in Yuba, actually, those first couple are considered the highest grade.
+
+[22:16] They have the least flavor and they're the most delicate. As you go in and in, you've depleted some of the protein and fat, and so the yuba becomes, or I guess milk skin, although I haven't done as much with milk skin, becomes higher and higher in sugar, and they also become thicker and thicker, right? Because the sugars in milk. So from Yuba, you start with a relatively bland, tasteless, high protein with fat uh you know skin forming on top. And by the end, you have much thicker, not as strong, red and sweet Yuba, which I actually like a lot.
+
+[22:44] So like the as you take each successive skin off, because you're changing the the the actual makeup of the leftover milk, the yuba itself changes. So it's not enough to just sit and wait for the skin to go longer. You actually want to remove the first couple if that's what the chef wants. Maybe you could use them for something else. And then um and then you know go from there.
+
+[23:02] If you're interested in making uh milk skin, I guess read the Noma book, although I don't have it. Uh if you're interested in Yuba or any form of tofu, which I highly recommend you make at home. Once you start making tofu or go to a really high grade shop, if you make it yourself, you're not gonna want to go back to the crap that's in the supermarkets. Like real tofu, I think has a flavor. You can control it.
+
+[23:21] I love it. It's fantastic stuff. And when you make it, you just want to eat it, you know, by itself. You don't want to ruin it and you know, you don't you don't want to turn it into some sort of fake turkey or some sort of BS crap, you know, fake meat analog junk. You just want to eat it for what it is.
+
+[23:35] Tofu gets a bad name because it's misused and the stuff that we uh buy has been soaked in so much water that there's absolutely zero flavor of the actual uh you know, bean left. Uh and there's just kind of no subtlety to it. You know, what you can when you make your own, you can control the texture from almost like a cloud tofu that you can put in the soups. It hasn't been pressed at all all the way down to firm tofu. You get the okara leftover, which is the uh which is the pulp from the from the soy, which you can mix into you know, muffins or pancakes.
+
+[24:01] You you get the soy milk, which you can make yuba from if you want. I mean, it's just incredibly amazing, versatile product that uh is really fun to work with at home, but it's a mess. So if your spouse uh is you know, make them leave if they don't like messes. Uh alternatively, have them help you if they like to cook. Uh so the uh so it the what you need to buy is go out and buy a book called The Book of Tofu by a guy named William Shirtleaf out of uh out of California.
+
+[24:26] He has like the soy institute. He himself is kind of a nut, well, I shouldn't say it's for me, kind of a nut job. He believes he's gonna save uh God bless him, I hope he does, save the world through inexpensive uh vegetable and soy proteins. The he and his wife, uh, what's her name? I forget her name.
+
+[24:42] Anyway, she they they have this soy Institute, and it's uh it his books are amazing. Don't buy the small abridged ones, buy the big ones because they haven't been chopped up and the information is there. But the book of tofu is one of the all-time great reads on how to make tofu. Don't call him on the phone and ask him whether you can make tofu from edamame because he's like, Why would you waste edamame by making tofu out of it? Don't do it.
+
+[25:03] I did it. It was a mistake. I got a stern talking to by the man. But uh, I highly respect I highly respect his work. And you can then use what he says about tofu and make all sorts of other curds as well.
+
+[25:14] You can make peanut curds, although they're really like tofu out of peanuts, although it's and probably also peanut skins, the same way you make edamame skins. But uh, it's uh more difficult because the fat content is higher. So you might need to dope with uh up with protein or else use transglutaminase, aka meat glue, the chef's friends, which we've spoken about here uh, you know, on several occasions. You can look at the blog cooking issues, get more information on meat glue, but I'm sure you can make a peanut skin by adding little transglutaminase. So I hope this answers your milk skin questions, and we're gonna take another break and come back with Cooking Issues Radio.
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+[25:44] Call your questions in to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. We're not here, groove like this. Oh, yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[26:16] Back way of yeah, man. Ah thing. Look at you. Some of a guy groove like this. To know who know.
+
+[26:25] No. I need to grip. Need to grip the bit no bread. You know, I believe hey, Brad Dum. Bravo!
+
+[26:56] I'm getting ready to wave y'all leave. You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down and all the vomita gets down. I gotta get in the deep.
+
+[27:04] Welcome back to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network brought to you today by the Barter House. Call your questions in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So I almost missed it, but uh Brian had a second uh part of his question. It's actually probably interesting for some of uh our listeners.
+
+[27:21] He's uh training in New Zealand, land of legal distilling, by the way. Thank goodness for New Zealand and its legal distillation laws. May we all have your laws someday. Um he said he's uh thinking of either going to Australia or uh the United States to work in restaurants afterwards, and he's interested in restaurants here in the in the states like Townhouse in Virginia, WD-50 in New York, or Moto or Linney in Chicago, and wants to know the best way to get into it. Now he's about to stage at a at a you know kind of a very modern you know modern cuisine restaurant called uh Attica in Melbourne and wants to know how to get to these other restaurants.
+
+[27:54] The short answer is that uh if you are willing to work for free in a stage, you can come work in almost any of these restaurants, if you set it up far enough in advance and they have space. The best thing to do if you're staging at you know a well-known restaurant like Attica is to because all you know, all these chefs basically know each other. Like everyone who's in this kind of business, they they know the people that are in their same circle, same group. And they all extend um they all extend professional courtesy to each other, whether it's making reservations or whether or not it's taking on cooks. So what I would do is I would bust your behind at this place.
+
+[28:27] Just you know, break your back at this place at Attica, right? And then go to the chef or the Sioux or whoever you're closest to and say, listen, I'm really interested in these restaurants, and and do you know anyone there? And that's the surest way to get into one of these restaurants. Much, much, much surer than uh just trying to cold call or do something like that. And that's really the way this kind of business is done.
+
+[28:50] So when you're in a cooking school, you have all the the cooking contacts from the cooking school, and then once you're in a restaurant, you have the the um the contacts of that chef, and it's all about you know, they're gonna put their name on the line because they believe in you because you've worked hard for them. And that's how the business works. Wouldn't you say so, Nastasha? Yes. You know, so you know, and I know when I send people to restaurants, that's how it is.
+
+[29:11] I say, this person is good, take them on, and they almost always say yes, or if they really have no space in the kitchen, they say, Well, can they wait until X, Y, and Z when I'm gonna have some space in the kitchen? But assuming you're willing to work for at least a small amount of time gratis, then uh, you know, you you get for free. Then um, you know, you can definitely get in. And if you've already had a paid job at one of these places, it's a lot easier for them to send cooks from place to place. That's just to me, I think that's just the way the business works.
+
+[29:35] Uh so I hope that's helpful and good luck and choose America. Okay. Uh so um uh um Ari Del Rosario uh writes in, he found us via uh Josh Azursky's write-up in time. Thanks. Uh thanks for coming.
+
+[29:49] Uh he wants to pester us on some tips for uh Asabuco. Uh I love Asibuco, it's one of the things that my mom uh used to make growing up. Asubuco is veal shank. Uh that's uh cooked until it's delicious and tender. Um but he doesn't really want to wait to braise it three hours, and he wants to know.
+
+[30:06] He said, Can you pressure cook instead and hope for the same results? You're actually uh not gonna get the same results in a pressure cooker as you're gonna get over a slow braise. I happen to think that they're delicious. I like pressure cooking, but it's gonna be a little bit different. The meat's probably gonna be uh the fibers are gonna be a little more distinct, but it'll still it'll still be delicious.
+
+[30:23] Yes, you can do asubuco in a pressure cooker. It's gonna take you um on average, if you use second ring, which is 15 pounds per square inch, I would say it's gonna take you on the order of 25 minutes. And so, what you're gonna want to do to adapt your recipe is uh the main problem with asebuco in a pressure cooker is going to be uh the tomato scorching and sticking on the bottom of the pan that you cook with tomatoes. So you're gonna want to maybe have to make the sauce a little bit thinner than you would normally. Make sure it's you know you want to sear off your asubuco, put it in, uh, and you're gonna want to um make sure that it's boiling and you're stirring and boiling before you close the pot, or you're gonna might have to get some scorching from the tomato in the bottom.
+
+[30:58] Uh so it's not gonna be the exact same result, but it's gonna be uh delicious. I believe I've made asubuco in the in the pressure cooker before. Yeah, I think so. The other thing you're gonna want to do is don't uh force vent it because that might dry out the surface and like blow apart the meat a little bit. So let the pressure come down on the pressure cooker naturally and then open it up.
+
+[31:14] And and he says uh that he made a variant of asubuco, but with Spanish chorizo, chickpeas, carrots, and potatoes, and he said everything went well except the shank was really tough. And uh and he said it didn't help that I was rushing. Exactly. You know, when you cook, when you braise a piece of meat traditionally, what happens is is that until it's finished brazing, it's tough, tough, tough because you instantly overcook the meat with the with the high temperatures. So now you're relying on the collagen breakdown to give it that kind of uh tenderness back and and to make it so like an under-braised piece of meat is gonna be dry and tough.
+
+[31:44] And so that's why it seems counterintuitive. But uh what happen, you know, what happens is the longer you cook it at that point uh until you break down the collagen, then um you know it's gonna get it's gonna get tender again as the as the collagen turns to gelatin. It doesn't help to cook it any longer than that. Once you start cooking it longer, it's just gonna turn mushy, and eventually, if you boil any liquid out of it, it's gonna go dry again. But pressure cooker is definitely the way to go.
+
+[32:06] Uh, and you know, please write in and tell us how it worked, but I'm sure it will work well. Pressure cooker has another advantage, by the way. It doesn't heat up your whole damn kitchen. Uh, and it's actually use it's fairly energy efficient, so it's actually uh a really good way to do it. And Asibuco is of course one of the great recipes of all time.
+
+[32:21] Uh okay. Val writes in and said uh Val's curious about our opinion on Nathan Miraval's soon to be released book, uh Modernist Cuisine. Is that what it's called? Modernist cuisine? I didn't know that was the actual name of that.
+
+[32:32] I guess so. I don't know. Uh is it worth uh the price? Uh also since you're interested in the best way to do things, what kind of knives do you use and why? And do you use oil or water stones to sharpen them?
+
+[32:42] Okay. These are two uh interesting questions. The first one that I'm gonna talk about is the Nathan Miravold book. And uh I guess the question of whether it's worth it uh depends on how much money you have. Uh, you know, I think uh, you know, if you have the money, I think it's definitely uh worth it.
+
+[32:58] I mean, I think it's you know it's gonna be it's a Herculean effort. It's um it's unlike any book that's uh ever been published in cooking, to my knowledge. Um it's uh you know what's interesting about it is that it's at this at one time it's got a lot of uh technical points, but it's also uh you know got a lot of personal points too. It's got a lot, you know, it's very, it's very personally written, it's got a lot of personal opinions. So you get a lot of the opinions of of Nathan and Chris, and uh and it's uh you know it's it's unlike any other book.
+
+[33:26] I mean it hey, it's good to be a billionaire, you know, like they they got to do what they wanted to do in this book and I think that um you know it's a hundred percent worth the worth the purchase price. Now if if you didn't make rent last week you know then uh you know that's a different story then you know go go and read it in the library but if you can afford to go to uh I in fact when uh I had a meeting with Nathan Miravold and I say wow you know it's kind of expensive he's like well look you know if a cook can afford to go to per se uh you know they can afford to buy the book and I was like you're right you know what I mean it's like you know you're gonna learn a lot in the book and it's uh so you know I think it's definitely worth the purchase price and if you knew the amount of work that they put into the book it's probably underpriced. I mean in terms of the amount of work that it took for them to do it it's probably underpriced. If you look at the images and what happened I there is I I there's never been a book made like it I don't think what do you think Nastasha you saw I think you're right the pictures are beautiful. Yeah and just the work that went into them you know I mean it's just uh you know for any of you who have ever had to actually make uh any images it's a huge hassle and uh you know they they had a rule when they were make doing the book that any time they bought a piece of equipment they'd buy two and cut one in half so that they could have pictures for the book.
+
+[34:39] Think about it. You know what I mean? So uh yes. So then the second part of this question is what kind of knives do we like and how do we sharpen them oil and water stones. This is an excellent question.
+
+[34:49] There is so much um what's the word crap out on the you know out on the web and so many kind of ill considered opinions on what the best sharpening technique and the best um best knives, and there's so much hype and there's so much hoo-ha um that it's hard for me to make any kind of actual uh pronouncements. I will say this. Um don't compare American grits. Uh you know, the grit is the size of the uh is how they rate abrasives, right? What the grit size is, right?
+
+[35:22] Like so smaller, uh you know, high higher numbers like 2,000, 3000, 4,000 mean finer grit. And if they're it's rated in microns, then smaller numbers mean finer and finer grit. But Japanese grits, right? Most most high-end chefs here in the US, we you know, they tend to like uh Japanese knives, Japanese style knives, Japanese sharpening stones, and those knives are fantastic. Um but um Japanese grits and American grits can't be uh they're not one to one.
+
+[35:48] So don't think that if you have like a 5,000 Japanese stone and then you have like a 2,000 or whatever, I don't know what the the American stone, that you can just relate relate them that way. Also, how sharp your knife is depends on uh what you're using it for. Okay. So, you know, a knife that you're gonna use for aggressive cutting, right, might actually be better not taken to a polished uh surface because it maintains what they call kind of micro serrations on the microscopic level, even though it doesn't look serrated at all. It's like little imperfections at the at the surface of the of the edge help to uh basically break through things like tomatoes that you would otherwise crush as the knife begins to dull, right?
+
+[36:26] Whereas the Japanese style of sharpening is to take it down to a mirror mirror edge, right? Also, whether like so in general, I tend to use, and most chefs don't, they they kind of poo-poo them, but I tend to use diamond stones, specifically these composite diamonds, flat diamond stones made by I think uh uh we'll we'll look it up on the blog, but like DMT or something like that, or DMZ, some of that, and they're flat uh with a diamond and I use the fine and the ultra fine. Uh, and I like them, and then chef, and I use them basically dry with with water with oil. Um I use tech, I tend to use water. Uh you know, chefs poo-poo them and then they use them and they're like, damn, my knives are sharp.
+
+[37:03] You know what I mean? Uh, if you're gonna sharpen a lot of knives at a time, an interesting system was built by the Edge Pro because a lot of the reason why your knife aren't sharp, it doesn't really matter how good your stone is or how good your knife is, your hand's not that good. You're not really sharpening the knife properly because you're not maintaining proper uh contact angles when you're sharpening, right? Or you haven't learned to feel the burr on the edge of the knife. Typically, what you're doing gonna do is sharpen one side of the knife until it rolls a burr over on the edge very slightly, and you'll feel for that with your finger by dragging along the knife for the burr, then you'll turn it over and you'll take that burr off, and then you'll progressively go softer and softer.
+
+[37:35] And then afterwards, I even leather strop it because I find that a leather strop is a is a nice way to kind of refine the edge. Um, but uh so the Edge Pro system uh is good if you're gonna sharpen a lot of knives. It's a it's a little hokey if you're gonna sharpen one because you've got to set up this big system. Uh I would recommend you learn how to freehand sharpen a knife just by eye, but it takes a takes a lot of practice. You know, what particular knife you buy depends on your particular cutting style.
+
+[37:58] If you're used to the German and French styles with kind of a thick bolster on them, you know, stay with them. They're not, they're they're not they're not bad. Well, most chefs I know ships uh have uh switched over to Japanese Western style, and Japanese Western style typically have a much much thinner blade that people have become uh accustomed to now. When you switch to them, if you've never used them before, you're gonna get a different set of blisters and calluses on your fingers, and it might hurt for the first couple of weeks that you use them because you're not used to choking up on such a knife with such a thin edge in the back. But most chefs that I know now use Japanese Western style blades.
+
+[38:27] What I don't like about a Japanese Western blade is they're typically sharpened more on one side than on the other. And I find it for me difficult to sharpen, although most chefs don't have that problem. I don't like it. Uh the uh typical Western style blade is sharpened um on both sides an equal amount. I either like a Western style knife or uh on the extreme other side, traditional Japanese uh knives, which are sharpened almost like a chisel, where it just has one bevel edge that's fairly easy to maintain, and then you take it off uh off the burr off the back by holding the knife almost flat against your sharpening stone.
+
+[38:59] I find traditional Japanese knives to be incredibly easy to sharpen. And I find you don't need to buy the most expensive ones to have the good time. Go to go to Corin, uh K-O-R-I-N.com, get their get their house brand of uh of you know original Japanese style uh knives, get like a Deba, get like uh a Yanagi, which is a slicer, and they're not gonna break the bank. They're like, you know, a hundred dollars a piece, and as long as you maintain them, you have to sharpen them almost every time you use them. Uh they're gonna be unbelievable performers for you.
+
+[39:28] And then if you nick the edge, because they're fragile, don't cut bones with them, please. You know what I mean? Like, but if you nick the edge, you know, you haven't lost a $500 knife. So if you're gonna want to go into Japanese knives, traditional Japanese knives, which I highly recommend, then I would get one of those. But you don't need to listen to all the mystical hoo-ha necessarily.
+
+[39:43] I don't think I'm gonna get a lot of nasty comments about this, about the way, you know, exactly using the right watering stone. If you get one of these new really good diamond stones, and go on, you know, the knife forms and check it out, see what people say about it. Don't take my word for it. Uh, you know, you'll see that they're pretty good performers, uh, you know, if you if you use them properly, and I sharpen my Japanese knives on them all the time. Uh so that that's what I would that's what I would recommend doing.
+
+[40:07] And one last story before we go. Uh there is a uh there's an interesting problem I was thinking about, uh a bunch of related problems about when going to a restaurant. You ever go to a restaurant and it's really loud, all of a sudden it gets really, really loud all of a sudden? Yeah. So there's this uh there's this phenomenon that was first brought up in 1959, originally called the cocktail party effect, but now called the cafe effect.
+
+[40:27] And and but there's actually another problem called the cocktail party problem, and then another thing called the Lombard effect, and they're all uh interrelated. And what it is is the cafe effect is that you can have a normal conversation with uh a group of people, and more people show up at the party, you can have a normal conversation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, one more person shows up and everyone starts shouting. Right? Okay, yeah.
+
+[40:48] Yeah, yeah. So basically it's like this kind of threshold effect where one more one more body shows up and bam, everyone starts shouting. And it has to do with a set of differential equations, basically, where uh, you know, all of a sudden that little bit, you now talk a little bit louder uh to be heard, the other group talks a little bit louder, you talk a little louder, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, until everyone starts shouting to a point where it becomes uncomfortable to shout anymore, and then everyone just moves closer together. So that's the cafe effect used to be called the cocktail party effect, first brought up by a guy named uh McLean in 1958 or 59 in the Journal of American Acoustics. Dude was clearly joking.
+
+[41:22] I went back and read the paper because he was like, these are just first-order approximations, and he was talking about apartments and parties and and bad guessing and stuff like that. So he was clearly having fun with it. Uh, but it got picked up in the in the literature in acoustics, uh, and then got folded into a separate problem called the cocktail party problem, which is interesting in physics and interesting to the CIA, because the CIA really wants to be able to pick signals out of the air and analyze them so that they can tell what you're doing, even if you're on a bunch of other problems and uh uh doing a bunch of other things. And so the cocktail party problem now, if you Wikipedia it what it refers to is your ability in a cocktail party to tune out uh everything else and listen to somebody's conversation, even though there's a lot of competing uh information in the air. And it relies uh very heavily on the fact that we have two ears, and so if someone has a hearing deficit in one ear, it's why they have such an impossible time understanding conversation in crowded rooms, and which is why you should be nice to them and look at them so that they can see your mouth and stuff like that.
+
+[42:14] So uh so that's the the cocktail party problem, and they're all related to something interesting called the Lombard effect. And the Lombard effect is the effect where uh you instinctively talk louder when people around you are louder. Where you just it it's it's it's instinctive, and in fact, it's the way people it's the way uh experts test to see if you're lying about your hearing deficit. If you start talking louder as as uh talking is ramped up around you, because it's a reflex, you can't help it. They're like, you're a liar, you're a faker.
+
+[42:44] Anyway, so uh the cafe effect, uh the cocktail party effect, and the Lombard effect. Three related interesting uh phenomena that you might notice at your next cocktail party or if the restaurant is too dang loud. This has been Cooking Issues and come back next Tuesday. Cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network brought to you this week by the Barter House. Oh, you dead.
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+[0:00] The following episode of Cooking Issues has been sponsored by Acme Smoked Fish. Located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, Acme has been a mainstay in New York's culinary landscape for over fifty-five years. Using old world recipes, ACME produces the finest smoked salmon, white fish, and sable that discerning palates demand. For more information on where to find Acme, Blue Hill Bay, or Ruby Bay products, please visit www.acme smokedfish.com. Dave, you're on.
+
+[0:51] Cooking Issues, Cooking Issues Radio. Dave Arnold coming to you live from Germany, where I'm at the Berlin Cocktail Conference. I have Nastasha sitting uh in the studio in Brooklyn. He's there in the study. Hi, Dave.
+
+[1:04] Hey, yeah, so uh this uh this radio show is being literally phoned in, I'm phoning it in from Berlin on my iPhone. So if I click or pop, yeah, you'll know you'll know why. And uh Nastasha, thanks so much for putting uh Phil Collins on as our intro music today. I uh appreciate that. Couldn't find your song.
+
+[1:23] Yes, I know everyone likes the Phil Collins every now and again, so that's that's uh perfect. Everyone has two ears and a heart, Dave. Exactly, exactly. All right, all right. So listen, so uh Nastasha, can you read the numbers since I don't have it in front of me and for some reason I cannot commit it to memory?
+
+[1:38] Yes. If you want to call in and ask questions to Dave, who's in Germany, the number is seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. I would really like it if someone from Germany called New York to ask me a question while I'm in Germany. We'll see if we can see if we can get that going.
+
+[1:55] Um and we'll be here uh live for the next uh forty-five minutes or so, and uh meanwhile I'm gonna take some email questions. So uh one of our uh favorite uh blog readers, Schinderhannes, wrote actually from Germany, but not from Berlin. Uh and he says um uh wait away, where's oh, he said why are the two most uh important beverages in Germany, beer and apple juice, beer for adults and apple juice for kids, use so rarely in cocktails, and do you have any good recipes for these ingredients? Schinderhannes is an excellent question. Um the problem with apple juice and cocktails is that apple juice is relatively diluted.
+
+[2:30] So most cocktails that are produced in bars, and therefore also most recipes that are written for them are are based on the idea that you're going to make a drink and then dilute it with uh you know, chill it and dilute it with ice. Now the the problem is is that if you're using um apple juice, by the time it's chilled uh and diluted, it's just much too watery. So you don't have you either you're not gonna have enough uh uh alcohol in it, and you're also not getting to have enough flavor of the of the apple juice. And so I think that's the reason why uh there aren't that many drinks using it. Now, of course, the solution to this is to um is to chill your uh drinks beforehand, right, or mix them cold and then chill them down so that when they're mixed together, you don't have to dilute it a lot with uh with ice.
+
+[3:12] A really good technique is to actually freeze the ice cubes in uh freeze the apple juice into ice cubes and then shape with the frozen uh apple juice, and this way, as it's chilling and diluting, you can get it really cold, the same as a standard cocktail, about minus seven Celsius. But uh as it's diluting, it's diluting with apple juice. Uh and that this technique works really well and something we do a lot. I like um I like uh apple juice and whiskey, I think it's really good. When we use apple juice, though, we're often making our own apple juice and we'll uh we'll juice it with uh some ascorbic acid as an antioxidant so that the apple juice stays stays c uh clear I mean sorry stays green and or or yellow if it's a yellow apple or red if there's a lot of red skin and then uh but it doesn't oxidize the important part and then often we'll clarify it uh and and mix it.
+
+[3:57] So we do a lot of work with that. We'll do we've done apple and tequila we've done apple and and bourbon. Most of the time we we we're only doing the apple juice in a spirit because we tend to use very high quality uh apples uh and we really want to show the flavors that that uh of the specific apple. Most apple juice once it's allowed to oxidize and clarify traditionally uh the taste uh differences are muted somewhat so that's one of the reasons we like to do it fresh and uh some of our favorite apples are uh Ashmead's kernel which is an old English variety uh Spitzenberg which is an old American variety um but you know you you know any local variety that you like assuming it has a you know a high enough acid balance is i a good acid sugar balance you can use and of course you can correct acid sugar with uh malak acid which is the app acid from apples or you can uh you know obviously you can add more more sugar to it. Uh with regards beers there is like a there are a whole bunch of cocktails based on beers they're just not seen as often uh uh these days like you know sh shandy's we do a lot of really old school hot beer cocktails where uh we'll use uh like a beer uh usually an ale, usually not a lager, usually an ale, and uh and like either a brandy uh or sometimes uh a whiskey and then we'll flame it using uh our red hot poker which can basically uh it can ignite the drink you don't really need to ignite it, but you need to get uh something hot, like a hot stone or or just very hot uh implement with it, like with a with a lot of thermal wallop to it to give it the kind of burned flavors uh that are really characteristic of those old style drinks.
+
+[5:28] Uh and I really like to do that. I don't have any good modern beer recipes uh off the top of my head for cold cocktails, but they've become extremely uh popular in certain bars over the past uh three or four years uh in the States and I I think you're gonna see a return to more beer-based cocktails in the future, especially in restaurants that have um uh they don't have a liquor license, right? So they can't serve liquor, but they can serve uh wine or beer. And so these places do a lot of interesting work with wine-based cocktails and uh beer-based cocktails. But unfortunately I don't have any uh good recipes right off the bat.
+
+[6:03] Uh what do you think, Styles? Do you think that's good the good answer or not? Yeah, I think that's a good answer. Have you been drinking a lot of beer out there? Uh I've had some beer.
+
+[6:10] So there's a characteristic beer from Berlin called uh Berlin Weiss uh that is uh they sweeten it with the one I had with uh Woodruff uh syrup so it's green. It's just like big goblet of green beer and it's a little sweet so I couldn't drink a lot of them but whenever I go somewhere I like to try the characteristic uh beverage of the area but the person I ordered from it told me that it was it was mainly a lady's drink. But I did enjoy it. I did enjoy it. So it was and I have been drinking drinking quite a bit of beer.
+
+[6:37] We have a collar. Um oh we have a caller? Yes. Hello caller you're on the air. Hi there.
+
+[6:43] I'm Colin Gorg. I'm living down in Washington DC. And uh recently I've been trying to make I've been making sweet grass vodka for quite a while. I've got a sweetgrass patch. I've just been usually just soaking it for a couple days.
+
+[6:59] But when I saw the uh method you use with the EC panister, I tried doing some with uh you know, pressure pressurizing with some nitrous oxide and trying to sort of blast some of the fresh grassy flavor out. But something kind of curious happened. Uh when I did it, I used you know same concentrations I usually do. Uh and let it pressurize it with two charges, uh let it sit for a couple minutes, about between two and three minutes, let the gas out, and it didn't look too heavily colored. It was like very lightly so I let it sit overnight in the fridge, like we used to do, and you know, it kind of looked the emerald thing that it usually has, but it's now been like maybe a week later, and whereas the regular stuff will be you know still this kind of emerald color.
+
+[7:58] This stuff has turned very tawny, very almost like uh watered down coffee or tea color. And what's the flavor again? I couldn't hear the very first part. What was that? What's it saying?
+
+[8:09] What was the flavor again? I couldn't hear. Uh sweetgrass. Oh, sweetgrass, okay. Um, all that.
+
+[8:17] I mean I would bet, right? Like my guess just off the beginning, and and I don't know whether that the the main question is the main question about the color? Yeah, but the color also the flavor profile is a little different. There's like usually it's kind of very vanilla-y and grassy. There's still the kind of like grassy vanilla thing, but there's also a more I don't know, almost like brandied cherry thing that's not usually there.
+
+[8:41] Uh so I was just wondering if you know, it's kind of the chlorophyll is getting blasted apart and that's what caused it to change color, or if you got any, you know, potential ideas about what might be going on. Yeah, I mean, I would almost guarantee that you're breaking some cells when you're doing it and thereby releasing some enzymes and the enzymes are getting to work uh busy oxidizing and creating some of those brown flavors. I mean that would be my guess. Now I think that you know uh it's it's definitely tr so like if for instance when I'm doing an herb that I know it has a tendency to go brown, when I do it, um I'm trying to be as careful as I can and use not br uh herbs that aren't bruised and also to not um and to not shake it real hard. I just swirl it around when I use those because I want to minimize breakage.
+
+[9:28] Uh but also uh you know, we've had some luck, but not great luck, uh doping it with a little bit of an antioxidant. The problem is it's also then gonna add acid, so it's gonna change the flavor, like ascorbic acid. You could use sodium uh metabisulfite instead as an antioxidant, but I've haven't tried it, so I can't talk about its efficacy. Now, the difference in flavor between the two, I think you have two different things going on. Uh and I I again I can't really judge like which one is uh is working.
+
+[9:55] And by the way, for people who don't know what we're talking about, go on to cookingissues dot com and look up uh I guess infusion uh and I ISI or EC, and you can see it's this technique where we do very rapid infusions of flavor in uh in whipped cream makers, and uh, you know, for me it's really it's really a good technique because it allows us to do something um that we would normally use a vacuum machine to do, which is very expensive, and you could do it, you know, fairly easily. And you can do it at home, you could do it in a bar, it's it's friendly. Um, but uh the flavor t the flavor profiles are different than they are with the traditional infusion that takes a long time. And so I think um it not necessarily better or worse, just different. So it's m the I think it's true that you're gonna extract different flavors using this technique uh than you would um you using a traditional uh longer technique, right?
+
+[10:44] But I think the longer the product stays in there, the less the difference is gonna be. But I also think you're probably getting some flavor change based on the oxidation. Don't you think so? I think that the actual oxidation is going to change the flavors. What do you think?
+
+[10:57] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But it this is almost, you know, in uh in a pleasant way. So it's a little bit I was just curious if uh yeah. No, I guess it could be something enzymatic too, kind of breaking breaking things down a little different.
+
+[11:09] But uh Right. Well as soon as something oxidizes, right? I mean that's the thing I think people don't people so when you add something like a like an antioxidant, like ascorbic acid, for instance, too, and we're talking a little bit about this in the in the last uh question. When you add something like this, uh, you know, yes, you're preventing oxidation, uh which is a visual cue that something's going on, but it also radically changes the taste. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:29] I mean that's why apple juice, for instance, doesn't brown apple juice doesn't taste like fresh apples, is because it's gone through this oxidation procedure. It's not just that it's been heated, although that also changes it. And it's not just it's been clarified, but the actual oxidation where it goes brown is is changing the the characteristic flavor of a fresh apple into the characteristic flavor of the of the apple juice. So I think you might have some of that going on. And I think you also might have uh just perhaps a different extraction of things from it in general, you know?
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+[11:56] Yeah. So are there some other uh instances where you notice that oxidation has maybe actually like improved flavor? Because uh or is it generally a negative trend that you've uh uh I mean I think it depends. People really like um uh apple juice. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[12:11] Yeah. And so oxidized apple juice, I mean, it's not what I'm shooting for, so I tend to go uh try to make it taste as fresh as possible. But again, oxidation there is not uh bad, it's just it's just different. We normally associate it as being negative because we're used to uh we're used to it being a negative characteristic, and for instance, in things like pesto, and I think most herb oxidation, like like basal oxidation and cilantro oxidation has a very characteristic flavors, and we're we're we we kind of shun those flavors, and so it takes on a bad name, but there's nothing inherently bad about oxidation. I think I might have to story w once on the on the cooking issues before, but I'll say it again real quick.
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+[12:48] There is uh, you know, I pretty sure I said it, but they you know, Reese's peanut butter cups, which I won't use their name, but it's Reese's peanut butter cups. They uh they're characteristically oxidized, the fat's oxidized a little bit in the peanut butter, and that's the characteristic taste of the Reese's peanut butter cup. And if you actually put oxygen scavengers in the packaging so that it doesn't oxidize a little bit, nobody thinks it tastes like a Reese's peanut butter cup anymore, and they don't want to buy it. So it's um you know, yeah, so oxidation it it you know it's it's all in the eye of the of the eater or in the mouth of the eater, I guess. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:20] Yeah. Anyway, I hope that answered your question. Thanks for calling in. And uh you just post something to the blog if you have more results with the sweetgrass, because I'm interested. We haven't used any uh sweetgrass infusion.
+
+[13:29] So uh so yeah, yeah, I'll call it. Um uh once we have some more systematic stuff, I'll put it together and show you guys. But thanks for your help. Very good. Thank you.
+
+[13:40] Uh all right. We should take a break. We have what? We should take a break. All right, so we're going to our first break, and we're gonna come back live from our our two continent cooking issues from New York and from Berlin.
+
+[14:00] Search no little runs starting. Asking all kinds of questions. No one is like all this time. I still remember you said I listened. How could I ever find this?
+
+[14:55] But I just cooked. Dave, you're on. Hey, welcome back to Cooking Issues. Coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, even when I'm in Germany. Uh so we're coming to you live as like I said, Stasi's on the studio in Brooklyn, uh at Roberta's Pizza, and uh I am in the Berlin Cocktail Conference in Berlin.
+
+[15:15] So uh Duncan from Sacramento writes in. Oh, I by the way, call in your questions. We're still here for about another half hour or so. Nastasha, give him the number. All right, Duncan writes in from Sacramento and says he's been trying to make a stable foam from beer.
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+[15:32] So he's had a couple beer questions, if I like to see all these questions are working together today. Uh, I think it could be interesting to do a beer mousse or deconstruct a black and tan. However, I've not been able to get a dense and stable foam. Pegan hasn't worked, and I'm not sure gelatin would set up well in the presence of alcohol. Now, Duncan, if you're looking to do a traditional mousse uh style texture with gelatin, I guarantee you, gelatin will set uh the beer fine.
+
+[15:54] First of all, beer's not that high in alcohol. It's so it will affect it a little bit. You might have to use a little more jelly than you would normally use, but it's definitely gonna work. I've done gillets of champagne many times with gelatin and and and it works fine. If you want to make uh not a mousse, but just something that's dense and foamy, uh, get a really good result.
+
+[16:12] Uh I will steer you to the same technique as Sam Mason, uh formerly of uh Atlas WD50 and Taylor restaurant, uh, currently has a bar, his name for some reason because in Germany it's escaped me. He uses a product called methylcel uh F50, which is a methyl cellulose product that is uh basically can whip anything into uh a mousse. Uh it's not a mousse, really a foam, but like dense, you know, not quite as dense as shaving cream, but much denser than your normal foams that you make, uh like an egg white. It's like an egg white meringue. And in fact, we use it to dehydrate uh foams into meringues.
+
+[16:47] Uh and I think we have a recipe somewhere on the blog, don't we, Stasi for that? Or F50 and the hydrocholor problem? Yeah. Uh and so, and so he famously made a Guinness foam using uh methylcel F50, uh, and it makes a nice dense, stable, um, like a little bit thicker than the head on a Guinness, but like of that kind of nature. And so that's a really good technique.
+
+[17:06] Another one that you can use uh if you don't like uh methylcel, uh you can buy methylcel, I think at a retail at Le Sanctuaire's website and also Terra Spices website. And um some people have a little bit of a gripe with methylcel because uh it's one of the only things we use that's not you know, quote, all natural. It's not a chemical that is natural, it's modified cellulose pro uh product. So then uh people have a problem with that. Sometimes we'll use uh something called VersaWhip, which is basically uh they have a soy-based VersaWhip, which is soy protein uh as a whipping agent, and they have uh uh casein, milk-based protein versa whip.
+
+[17:43] That you can also get at I think at both of those suppliers and those can whip things into a denser foam I find versa whoop to be difficult to use I think methyl cell F50 and remember F50 don't get a different methyl cell F like Frank 50 uh that one I think is really easy to use it whips up like an egg white uh you might have to add a little bit of a thickener uh like I don't know Zansangum or Maltodexin or something to the to the beer to get it to warm up nicely but uh should work. Um we have a collar. So oh we have a collar? Yes. Uh all right call you on the air.
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+[18:15] Hello my name is Derek. I call I wrote in a couple weeks ago about a uh question about um velveting meat. Oh yeah yeah. Anyway thanks a lot for the info I thought was great. Um I had another question I wanted to ask about today which is you mentioned a uh a week or two ago something I've heard before about um cooking sous vide that as long as you sear it you're basically safe because the inside of the meat is basically sterile.
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+[18:43] But I had to give this a second thought last week when I uh got a piece of monk fish and found some worms crawling out of it. I wanted to ask about um dealing with pterasites and if you had some uh because those obviously you know aren't only on the surface but I know they're easier to kill than a lot of bacteria but I wonder if we could address the uses of those and how you might go about using doing it. Alright that's an interesting question. You picked monk fish which obviously is full of parasites also codfish full of parasites uh worms I mean uh luckily I don't know about muk mufffish but uh the ones in in codfish aren't going to infect you but they're incredibly disgusting. You know what I mean?
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+[19:19] Um and the um you know and in general, but the the the same thing holds true for traditional cooking and sous be there. So and so our discussion is basically when you're when you're cooking something sous vide often we don't cook things um enough to pasteurize them, enough to kill all the bacteria that's present, right? And the reason we don't is often if you cook something that long the texture can be uh ruined. Right. So that's true on uh certain beef muscle cuts like uh uh tenderloin like filet I think if you cook it long enough to pasteurize it or temperatures where you're gonna pasteurize it that you can you can damage the uh the texture but it's definitely true on fish.
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+[19:56] You really it's very hard to cook most fish so that they're pasteurized because uh you don't ever really want to get them in general up to the temperatures they could pasteurize them and even when you do you don't want to hold them there that long exceptions like striped bass can take those kind of temperatures but uh so uh so you don't tend to pasteurize them. Now on something like contains a parasite like codfish or a monk the the fact of the matter is that when you're doing a traditional cook you're also probably not getting the internals up high enough to to be any different than you would in Sous vide because uh but you are overheating you are really searing the outside and killing it. So I think my point with safety in Sous vide is that uh I don't think it's any less safe than the traditional method. Does that make sense at all or no? No that makes perfect sense.
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+[20:38] Um you know what it does I don't know I know that uh a lot of these worms and things can be killed just by freezing or at much lower temperatures than a lot of bacteria and such so I assume that it only makes it safe so unless I'm making sushi out of it it's probably okay. Does that sound about right? Yeah if you buy a sushi grade first first of all like there's different w there's obviously there's parasites in fish that will infect you and those are the ones that they get rid of by uh freezing it. So anytime you're gonna buy a sushi grade fish, it's been frozen to kill off those parasites, right? So once you're dealing with a sushi grade product, you're you're good to go.
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+[21:13] Um with regards to like the worms on a big piece of codfish, let's say my I have to go research because I have research. My recollection is that those are merely gross and not harmful. But um I could I'm not gonna swear on I'm not gonna tell people that you know on the radio because I haven't looked into it. But um but I also think that they're pr like you said, I think they're probably fairly easy to kill. And that if you're you know but the I that's why like I'd be a little worried about doing super low temperature work on a fish that's gonna have a lot of parasites um because then you know you'd you know you might get one of those suckers wriggling out of the plate and that would be that would you know customers running out like free meals you know it'd be it would be a nightmare you know a huge nightmare.
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+[21:58] Um and we've all seen like worms coming out of cod or out of monk fish. I mean they're just there. You know what I mean? And so like for instance the the famous low temperature cod recipe, extreme low temperature cod recipe, uh is uh by uh one roca uh from the uh the Sous vide book that came out a number of years ago in Spanish which is you know uh you know one of the first books on SunD a really good book. Uh Stas, you still there I heard a click.
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+[22:21] Yeah and think the other guy yeah yeah it's uh it's uh sorry we have to do this up in Germany. But that that recipe is uh famous but um it was mistranslated as cod. So people basically said that they they were heating codes extremely low temperature like 100 Fahrenheit. Uh and in fact it was salt cod where all of the uh that was reconstituted sa salt cod bacalau and so you know all the worms are obviously killed. But anyway.
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+[22:46] What do you think Saz is that good answer? I think that's a good answer, Dave. Too bad we lost the guy now. Hopefully that helps. I know it's yeah hopefully that helps so uh Duncan had a a second question, which is he's been trying to learn with cast iron, but he's been having trouble with food sticking intermittently.
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+[22:59] And he says, as far as he can tell the pan is seasoned, but sometimes omelets uh will stick to it and sometimes they won't. Well, I think this. I think I can't see your pan, obviously, because I'm in Berlin, but the and you're in Sacramento. But um can look seasoned, but they're not really seasoned as well as if they had been uh seasoned for years and years of use. So the the initial seasoning isn't really enough to make something kind of bulletproof nonstick.
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+[23:22] First of all, nothing's bulletproof nonstick. But I think what's probably happening is you probably have a couple of high spots in the pan that can cause adhesion, and then once it adheres, it it adheres pretty well to that point. And so maybe you didn't get a coating of oil uh over one particular section or it dried out, or somehow you got adhesion to the pan, and that the more you use it, the less and less it's gonna stick. Uh and you know, espe especially these newer cast iron, they're they're rougher and surface. I tend to find that you know, until you build up a really good season on them, they're not really uh, you know, even though some people theoretically think that the roughness is gonna help you in nonstick uh phenomena, I don't I don't happen to be one of those people who who believes it.
+
+[24:00] I mean, I think there's been a lot of discussion on that on the blog. If you look at the blog on the this, I think it's called what's it called, Sazie? Like heavy metal the science of cast iron or something like this. Yeah. Uh I haven't researched it uh recently, but you know, my my thoughts fresh from the research are are in that post if uh if anyone wants to go back and look at it.
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+[24:17] Um Chris Anderson writes in and uh he says he enjoys the show, which we appreciate, right, Sazi. Uh and he says, what is the correct ratio in making a simple syrup? Every recipe I find seems to have a different proportion of sugar to water. Uh, does the dilution depend on the application? Uh and then and then he goes, he adds a question about the shelf life of the syrup, uh, should it be stored in the fridge, etc., etc.
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+[24:37] Will that make the sugar crystallize? And he's noticed that it when he infuses things into it, like lavender or lemongrass, it tends to last uh not very long before it starts to mold on the top uh and that sugar seems to last longer. Can you extend the shelf life, etc., etc.? These are all interesting questions. First of all, let me start by saying that there is no correct there's no correct uh simple syrup recipe.
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+[24:58] Like there's all different ratios that you can use, and uh what's but but the uh particular recipe isn't going to taste the same as what the writer intended unless you use the same proportions that they asked for. So uh I tend it uh we at the school tend to use what's called a two-to-one simple syrup, and and everyone makes a different bar in a bar uh uh place they tend to make their syrup based on volume because they don't have scales, they have cup measures. So they'll bake they'll make simple syrup based on volume. Now, luckily, standard American granulated sugar weighs about as close to the same as water on a volume basis, just lucky. So they they you know, uh a weight simple syrup and a uh and a volume simple syrup are about the same when made with US granulated sugar.
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+[25:44] Now uh in a bar they tend to make one-to-one simple syrup because they're not heating it even. They're using super actually, they're using super fine syrup, which is gonna make it sweeter because it's denser. So erase what I just said. But they're using super fine sugar, which which uh which dissolves very quickly, and they're stirring it because they don't necessarily have a heat source right there, and they want to be able to make their simple syrup without heat. So they tend to make a one-to-one simple syrup uh and they tend to do it by volume, and they tend to with super fine sugar.
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+[26:10] So, like that should be like that's if a bar recipe just says simple syrup one-to-one, that's probably what they mean. Now, uh another reason that bartenders tend to use uh a lighter simple syrup like that is because it pours a lot faster and you leave a lot less syrup in the bottom of your jigger. The downside of it is that uh that simple syrup also adds a lot more water for an equivalent amount of sweetness, so it can throw off the dilution in recipes uh in certain recipes. I tend to prefer to add sugar in the form of sugar and make a denser syrup simple syrup. So when usually unless I say otherwise, my simple syrup is two to one, two parts sugar to one part water by weight, and then heat it until it dissolves and then allowed to cool down.
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+[26:51] Uh and when I need it in a hurry, I do a four-part, I do four parts uh sugar to one part water, heat it until it dissolves, and then I throw ice cubes to chill it down quickly. And that's how I make it. Now, the more sugar you put in a simple syrup, uh, the uh the more sugar you put in simple syrup, the less chance you're gonna get of mold developing. A one-to-one simple syrup is definitely gonna mold over time. If you store it in the fridge, it's not gonna mold over time.
+
+[27:17] Uh I don't think I've never really had them go moldy in the fridge. Um, but um, yeah, then you have to devote storage space to it in in the fridge. A two-to-one simple syrup probably won't mold as much. It'll still mold if it's outside, and you keep it in the in the fridge as well. Now you might get some crystallization in your two to one, but you're not gonna get that much crystallization in your two to one.
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+[27:36] I wouldn't worry about it so much. Um, when you're infusing a syrup, the question uh whether or not you know what kind of shelf life you're gonna get out of it, a lot depends on, and by the way, if you have to leave your simple syrup out, uh, because you know, whatever, you don't have free space or whatever, if you're gonna keep it for a long period of time, if you you know, once a week just you know bring it up almost to the boil and let it drop down again, you're going to you're going to kill the mold in it and you get to extend the shelf life again. Because it's not going to get unsafe on you. Now, when you're doing an infusion of something, uh, you know, like an herb or whatnot, you're probably getting more uh water and it also depends if you're gonna boil the the thing that you're infusing with it with the sugar, right? Then uh, you know, you might be killing some stuff into it, but you're probably introducing some some spores and whatnot, some mold into it, and um you're probably also giving it more of a substrate to act on.
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+[28:28] So that might be one of the reasons that you're getting more spoilage. I haven't um researched any specific, you know, mold inhibitors, although that's an interesting question. Maybe we should look into it, Stasi. But uh, I think you're gonna definitely increase the life of those things by putting them in the fridge. And I don't think that any crystallization, uh definitely not on a one-to-one and even on a two to one.
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+[28:48] I've had two to one in my fridge for months, and you know, you'll get a couple of crystals around the bottom of it, but not a huge, huge deal. Um, so in terms of consistency, I I I don't think there's a best or a worst. There's what fits your cooking style best. We have both one to one and two to one around. It's all about being consistent from uh time to time.
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+[29:08] Um they're telling me. Oh. All right, so we're taking a break, coming back with the last segment of cooking issues, you still have time to call in the house. Okay, Dave, you're on. All right, welcome back to Cooking Issues.
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+[30:51] Uh doing it to you in two time minutes. Go over in Berlin and we're in New York. Uh so some time to call in. Seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
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+[31:06] So uh Jay wrote us and asked us a question about uh protein in flowers, and uh and he uh he or she says Jay referenced uh McGee, Harold McGee. And so rather than answer this question, I'm just telling you, Jay, I'm gonna wait because Harold McGee is actually gonna come and teach a class in less than two weeks. Uh what are the dates again, Sasha? October twenty first and twenty-second. That's a Thursday and Friday.
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+[31:29] Right. So Harold McGee is actually coming to the French culinary all day, all day. Two-day class. He's coming to teach the Harold McGee class. We'll probably put something up on the blog, uh, in advance of it.
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+[31:39] Uh, but anyway, I'm gonna be spending some quality time with him, and you can too if you want. There are still spots. Uh go to the uh FCI website, French Culinary.com and look for the Harold McGee Lecture Series. But uh I'm gonna spend some quality time with him, and he is really up on uh these kinds of things and has done a lot of research. So Nastasha, I'm gonna put the the the protein question, uh flour protein question down as a whole because I want to give Jay a better answer uh when we're hanging with McGee.
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+[32:07] Um now uh we have a question. Uh let me see if I can find it. Uh and the thing is, uh when I cook for my this is uh Teddy, Teddy DeVico writes in and says, When I cook for my family, my dad to not eat salt or any food that contains salt, so I have to cook salt uh cook well without salt for him. I still cook for the rest of my family with salt. He did not believe that salt can make food drastically better, but I tell him it does.
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+[32:32] Why does salt make food taste better? Uh and is there any way to make food taste good without salt? Uh uh and by the way, Teddy does not think it is possible. Uh so uh uh you're right, it's not possible. Uh it's it turns out that uh salt, and I don't know whether your dad uh dislikes salt or whether or not he ha is one of the you know few people that is actually sensitive to salt from a uh blood pressure uh situation, but I mean salt, sodium chloride is uh is uh 100% necessary to uh your survival as a human being.
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+[33:07] Okay. So you know, your neurons don't work without sodium. Like, you know, we we don't work. There is no life uh for us without sodium, and we don't make it ourselves. So we a we have to take it in.
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+[33:18] In fact, mammals uh and other things, even humans, although there's some controversy about how it works because uh no, there's some controversy. But we have what's called salt appetite. So other than thirst where you're like I'm thirsty, I need liquid, the only other thing that works that way is salt where there's like you have a salt uh appetite at least mammals do whether or not humans have the same kind of salt uh salt thing that that uh primates do is you know up for question so salt is definitely something you need but you don't necessarily need to sprinkle salt on things because food that you eat naturally contains uh more or less salt depending on on what it is naturally in the product meats have a certain amount of salt in them uh because they come from animals and animals contain sodium um but you know natural mineral waters contain sometimes a good bit of salt in them depending on which one you choose now there's plants that grow like uh for instance uh sam fear or sea beans grows on the on the seashore and it has so much salt in it that I don't I don't even need to add salt to my salads when I make it with that and I like salt a lot. So you know definitely um you know you're always consuming salt. Uh it's just a question of whether or not you add salt.
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+[34:23] So then the question is well um you know do you do you need to add salt to food? And for me, yes, you know you too. So for instance the classic food that's that sucks without salt is bread, right? And so you know everyone in the world loves Tuscan cuisine myself included. I love it.
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+[34:38] Except for the bread is horrible. Right Stasi come on the bread's hard no we've got wine we've had this discussion I don't mind it I like to say it's horrible. Well here's a Stasi thinks that you can sprinkle salt on Tuscan bread and all of a sudden make it real bread. Yes. I completely disagree because I have baked breads where you accidentally forget to put the salt in how many out there is this happen to you forget to put the salt in and then you pray that you can make it better by adding salt.
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+[35:01] You c here's why you can't. Because first of all the salt's not throughout the dough. And second of all the salt actually affects the texture because it affects the way the gluten works. And so you'll notice that the crust on a on a saltless bread, the reason Tuscan bread looks like crap on the outside, it's that sallow looking crust, is because they don't have salt. And the reason the texture is not as good is because they don't have salt.
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+[35:22] And the reason it doesn't taste good is because can you guess why Nastasha? It doesn't have salt. Right, because it doesn't have salt. Uh and you can't fix those problems just by sprinkling salt uh on on the on the outside. That's like rolling a turd in sequins.
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+[35:35] You know what I mean? It just doesn't work. Um now uh it you know so another place where salt is you know uh often useful not just from a taste standpoint is with meats because salt actually increases the uh water binding capacity of meat. So the uh you know when you brine something you're actually ensuring that it's gonna be juicier by uh applying some salt to it uh beforehand. So it's actually performing a functional characteristic there.
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+[36:01] Now the vast majority of the of the you know huge sodium intake by the way like our grand great grandparents' generation ate a boatload more salt than we do because they had to eat everything pr preserved or had to eat more preserved things than we do. And in fact they were more heavily salted preserved meats were more heavily salted in the old days than they are now because now uh we have uh refrigeration. I just read a uh scholarly paper, I forget what it is so I can't reference it, but they said that nothing dr more drastically reduced the salt intake of the population uh in general than the than the refrigerator because now all of a sudden we didn't need to salt anymore. So this a modern idea that we consume so much more salt now because of processed foods in quotes that than we used to is absurd because salt used to be like everywhere everything was salted down to preserve it uh you know prior to the advent of uh refrigeration. So uh so we love salt because we need it.
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+[36:54] It also makes things taste d delicious you know so salt affects uh first of all you don't need to salt a lot in other words you don't need to make something salty to have the salt uh have a benef beneficial effect like for instance a little bit of salt in a drink even if you can't taste the salt it's gonna round out uh the flavors it changes your perception of aroma so when you add uh salt to a broth it's actually changing the aroma of the broth because it alters uh the way the volatiles are basically like the the amount of them they're captured allows things to release the release come off and you actually get a stronger impact of volatiles and the aroma uh you know it tends to be synergistic so it makes other things taste better uh without even necessarily having the perception of salt and they try to get around that by adding uh things like MSG which can also increase the palatability of something without adding a lot more salt although uh gram per gram MSC adds uh about one third the sodium that uh salt does because we usually get mono monosodium glutamate it doesn't add as much salt per gram as uh sorry as much sodium per gram as salt does and it's the sodium people are worried about by the way most of the flavor comes from the sodium the chloride is kind of usually along for the ride right um so uh but the the other thing about MST even though it does have sodium in it you typically would use a lot less MSG than you would use salt because it's more potent. Um so anyway I mean it's a long way I don't know whether I've still I totally answer this question I mean I've kind of like it all depends on yeah I mean what what's what's wrong with his dad right? Like if it's for health reasons or if he just doesn't like salt. But I mean yeah I mean there's got to be some people that don't like salt. There's only like one or two groups of people in the world that are known to not add any salt.
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+[38:37] I always forget what they are. It's probably like it's probably like some like s like Inuit culture or something like that. There's but again, they're eating like you know, whale meat out of the out of the ocean. I can't I don't even remember whether it's in you what I just made that up. But there's very few cultures in the world that don't use salt, and it's because this stuff tastes good.
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+[38:53] You know what I mean? Um and uh maybe I'll do some more research on it and talk about it at at a a later point. And he says on another note, what do I think of uh Grant Agates' aviary bar? Grant Agates, uh as most of the readers will know, is the chef at uh Alinea, which is a uh a very, very fine restaurant. I've eaten there twice, had an extraordinary meals when I was there.
+
+[39:14] I have not been to the bar. Is it open yet for us? I have no idea. No. I do not know if it's open.
+
+[39:20] I hear they've had some YouTube videos up, so maybe maybe they are. But um I'm sure whatever Grant does is going to be good, but I just haven't uh tried it yet. Now, uh yeah, one more question from who's this one? Steve. Uh by the way, Steve uh says, PS, thanks for talking about the issues of tall cooks.
+
+[39:42] Uh we're trying to get uh Mark Ladner, right? He won't he won't talk often. Well maybe we'll I'll just get his we'll why don't you get his comments separately and we'll just say what he said about that. That's good. Yeah.
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+[39:56] So yeah, so we can we can uh we can do that. Uh but he's basically uh he's uh he's a physicist and he's interested in ice, and he was just talking about something really cool, which is he makes spherical lenses out of ice so that you can start fires outside. That's pretty cool, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:14] So basically, you know, he says that you know, you could basically with your hands just take a block of ice and smooth it out, uh, you know, you know, heating it to make a a decent enough sphere to light a fire uh using it, which is I I think that's pretty cool. I'd like to try that. Um but so you're wondering about the the problems of making clear ice, because you need clear ice to make these these lenses. Uh and he um you know, he's talking about the difficulties in it, and uh have we talked about clear ice on the radio at all, Sazy, or not? I feel like we did, or maybe you touched on it a little bit, but not it not in depth.
+
+[40:48] Yeah, so basically, uh back in the day, uh prior to you know uh mechanical refrigeration, most ice that uh was used in uh in restaurants, bars, or in ice houses was harvested ice that was harvested from uh lakes and rivers in the wintertime, was sawn out in big blocks and then kept in huge insulated ice houses for use throughout the year. Now the benefit of this kind of ice is uh that it's formed in thin layers, as you know, Steve mentions. I mean he knows much better than I do because he's a uh physicist, but it forms in thin layers, and um what happens when it's forming in thin layers is that it uh the impurities in it, gas and any other actual dissolved impurities, don't get integrated into the uh crystal structure the crystal matrix of the ice. So when you're freezing in your in your in your freezer, here's what happens. You have an ice cube tray, it starts to freeze on the bottom, the impurities are getting concentrated in the center, as as are the dissolved gases, and then at a certain point the top of your ice cube freezes over, and then the inside, first of all, expands as it freezes, because ice expands as it freezes, and all the impurities are there and the gas is there, and you have a big like messy, you know, cloudy you know, ball in the middle of your ice cube.
+
+[41:56] You know what I'm talking about, right, Study? Right, right, yes. Yeah, right. So so that's what's happening. So lakes in lakes that doesn't happen because you're depositing thin layers that are constantly being washed and the layers are are built up and they're totally clear.
+
+[42:08] And as Steve points out, that's the same way icicles are formed, which is why icicles are also clear. So I guess you can maybe make a a good good lens out of that. The problem with doing it at home is uh is that it's just not easy. Even just degassing your ice cube phase in a vacuum machine isn't going to necessarily it's not gonna give you clear ice because the top will freeze over and as the inside expands and breaks the crystal structure and reforms, you'll get uh parts that are that are cloudy. Uh also um it's just difficult or or using distilled water won't solve the problem.
+
+[42:40] The only way to really solve it i is the way that the climb belt climb bell is m uh it's the ice uh manufacturers that make the machines for ice carvers, right? So ice ice carvers require clear ice. Uh and so uh bartenders have started using this when they call it climb bell ice, which is very clear, and it basically works like a lake upside down. They make sure that the freezing happens from the bottom of the cube up and they keep the water circulating on the top so that the top can't freeze over. And as it's built up slowly over the course of the day or so, because it takes uh forget, like between twenty-four and forty-eight hours to freeze one of these two hundred pound blocks in the climb belt, like as it's freezing slowly up, none of the impurities are incorporated and they're concentrated in the water that's on top.
+
+[43:21] And at the end they just drain that uh the the impure crappy water off the top and they're left with a block of perfectly pure crystal ice. And so that's how it's made. Now it's difficult to do at home, um, you know, unless you have like an anti griddle and you know, a chest freezer, but it's not something you can just kind of do in your freezer. But uh the good news is is that uh, you know, clear ice looks amazing and it's the only one that you can really carve well because it it's very easy to carve and it doesn't shatter, but it's not really gonna make your drink taste better. So that's the good news.
+
+[43:57] Anyway, Stasi, how are we doing on time? We're doing fine. I think we have like two minutes left, so say something. Yeah. All right.
+
+[44:05] So uh I will you know, relay uh what it takes to get stopped in the Dusseldorf airport in between flights and have basically a full body cavity search. So yeah, don't yeah. So don't leave your job at a cooking school after you do a demo with your folding box cutter. Which by the way, like everyone in the world should have a folding box cutter in their pocket at all times. Like in fact, the thing I hate most about traveling is that I can't have my folding box cutter with me unless I know where I can get blades for it.
+
+[44:36] So anyway, I go to JFK, which is our airport in New York, I take the box cutter out of my pocket and I uh discard the blade and put the empty box cutter, Sans blade, back in my pocket because I don't feel like I'm a human being unless I have a box cutter in my pocket, right? So the and you know, this probably says something bad about security in New York. I showed him the empty box cutter, I'm like, hey, it's a box cutter without a knife. What's the problem? Right, like, hey, right, what's the problem?
+
+[44:59] Let me through. I show up in Germany in Dusseldorf, and I have to go through security again. I show them I was like, you know, Eskap kein Mesa, you know, there's no no knife in there, right? But then they took they literally took apart everything, including my shoes, everything I own, took everything apart to look to see whether I had stashed a blade somewhere with my box cutter. And then they're looking through it and they see a box that I brought because I'm doing a cocktail demonstration here where we're testing uh temperature and I'm doing basically a recap of of the tails of the cocktail that I did with Ebon Clem and you can go see that on our blog about the cocktail science post.
+
+[45:32] So he finds this box with all these wires coming out of it, and he and and he's uh he's looking at me a little more than cross-eyed, and then and my German, by the way, is not so good. And then uh after that, he uh he finds a um I'm you know studying organic chemistry again, boning up on it, and I have a a chemical model set in my thing, and he C C sees chemistry wires, and a dude with a box cutter who I'm clearly disheveled, you know, from my flight. And so that's what it takes. That's what it takes to basically you know get the full smack down in the Dusseldorf Airport. So this has been your uh your your intercontinental cooking issues episode.
+
+[46:13] Uh thanks to Heritage Radio for making it happen. Uh thanks to Acme Fish. Thank you, Nastasha, and we'll see you next week. Looking for a fun night out? K1 Speed puts you behind the wheel for an adrenaline-filled time you and your friends will never forget.
+
+[46:42] Off the track, the fun keeps rolling with arcade games, great food, and drinks. They even have private party rooms for your birthday parties and corporate outings. Race hard, laugh harder, and claim your spot on the podium. K1 speed, more than racing, it's an experience.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] I'm Sam Edwards. I'm third generation cure master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause and what they're doing. They're supporting family-raised uh livestock, small family farms, uh certified humane, pasture-raised, antibiotic free.
+
+[0:20] Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into uh Serrano style hams, prosciutto style hams, bacon, sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or Virginia Traditions.com. Oh, you daddy. Got me on this corner. You're listening to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:09] Um Dave Arnold, our host of Cooking Issues, and we're here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Call in all your questions to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So uh today we're being sponsored by uh S. Wallace Edwards, the ham company.
+
+[1:27] I happen to know Sam Edwards personally who makes that ham. Ham happens to be Country Ham particular, although I know Nastasha, you're more of a prosciutto head. That's true. Yeah. But American Country Ham happens to be uh one of my favorite subjects in the whole world, so I might maybe I'll talk for a second about country ham before we get into anything else.
+
+[1:43] Um Sam Edwards Country Ham, uh our sponsor today. Uh his family has been in Surrey for, you know, I don't know, probably a couple hundred years, something like that. Surrey is across the river from Smithfield, which is kind of the well-known name in American country hams. They don't really make a good country ham in Smithfield anymore. But uh, you know, Sam Edwards really does, and you know, he he mentioned that his grandfather started the business.
+
+[2:05] His grandfather actually wrote an interesting article uh back, I think in some time in the 60s, and it was about um peanut-fed hogs. It you used to be, you know, everyone talks about the Bayota fed hogs that you get out of uh out of Spain that make the best, you know, most delicious ham. And in fact, they do uh make delicious ham uh because the basically the acorns that these Spanish hogs eat give them a uh they have a lot of unsaturated fat and it changes the fat characteristics of the ham, which means that the ham has this awesome taste that you can't really get any other way. Uh but the only reason that's really preserved, I think in Spain is because the the economics are such that they're not allowed to chop down the forest where those nuts are produced, so that they have these, they have the ability to produce it, whereas we don't. Our hams used to kick a similar level of butt.
+
+[2:48] In fact, we're world kind of known. I mean, our curing techniques are are are amazing. And um, so Sam Edwards' grandfather actually wrote an interesting article, I think in the 60s, or it's quoted in one saying that ham production is going to hell in a ham basket because um being because we're not feeding the the peanuts anymore, we have a lower slaughter weight than we used to. Uh, because you know, the older a pig is when you kill it, the more the enzymes and the enzyme profile in an older hog is different from uh the one in a younger hog, and uh on a larger older hog, aside from being bigger that can take more age, also the enzyme profile is different, which is going to lead to a better tasting ham. So these are all things that we've done.
+
+[3:22] But that aside, American curing is totally different from any other kind of curing, ham curing, and it's a totally different product. Like should not be confused with prosciutto, should not be confused with the serrano. Like these are like, you know, uh actual American treasures. And so Sam Edwards is one of the few people who's, you know, a still a fairly large production, uh, in other words, you can buy it here in in New York. Um, you know, he can ship, he's USDA, that is doing a very traditional, you know, great American product.
+
+[3:44] And traditional with in Virginia would be kind of a heavy smoke on on his hams. And you can make sure you get ones for him that are you know a year a year or older. Uh and then actually I'm traveling tomorrow to Kentucky. I'm gonna uh tour another great ham producer, Finchville Farms. Finchville Farms uh out of Kentucky is another great old producer, and you know, a lot of the people who produce hams in Kentucky, so think Finchville, think um Colonel Newsom's, which is Nancy Mahaffey's ham place, these are people also who've been curing for hundreds of years, not them personally, but their families, you know, and a lot of these guys moved to Kentucky back when Kentucky was still Virginia.
+
+[4:20] Uh so anyway, so I will be uh visiting um I will be visiting Finchville Farms tomorrow, actually. It's the first time I've been there, so I'm excited, along with of obviously drinking a lot of bourbon. So probably probably talk about that more next week. Although next week, Nastasha, we might be doing the show live from London. Live from London, huh?
+
+[4:37] So we're gonna do this. Our second road show is gonna be in London. Because next next week uh we're going to be out in London doing the what's the name of the show we're doing, Nastasha? Do you even know? It's just called the London Cocktail Week.
+
+[4:48] And uh yeah. So we're doing rotary evaporation over there. Yes, with Oxley Gin. Yeah, which is a vacuum distillation technique for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about. Uh right?
+
+[4:58] Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh so anyway, uh, let's go on to some questions because we have some email questions from before. If I can just find them.
+
+[5:08] Um my gosh. Oh my gosh, Nastasha, I've lost the email questions. No, no. So the first one's an answer. First one's an answer.
+
+[5:16] Oh, that's right. So uh okay, so uh some of you might recall several weeks ago, uh, we tried to answer the question. What was her name again? What was her name? Uh Colleen was the big girl.
+
+[5:25] Yeah, Colleen. Uh she she's a very tall woman, and she was having problems with uh with countertops, countertop heights. And we call Mark Ladner. Uh Mark Ladner is the newest four-star chef in New York City because Del Posto, his restaurant, just got upgraded to four stars in the in the New York Times. So congratulations.
+
+[5:44] Um, and he is tall, he's six four, and so here's what he wrote back. We asked him, how do you deal with the with this problem of being very tall? He said, When when I was younger, I often hunched over, which was obviously horrible for my back and neck. Uh when I built El Posto, uh, had a kitchen designer uh who recommended a 42-inch counter, which is higher than our normal what, 36, 35 counter, which which he recently designed for Gray Kunz, who's also, I guess, tall. And he says that this counter is a lifesaver.
+
+[6:08] And he says, most except for the very short love it. And he doesn't see any reason why uh Colleen, right, should not be allowed to use her special adapter unless it's unsafe or unsanitary. And he hopes that that's helpful. Okay, so we have a we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[6:23] Hey, how's it going? Going well. Awesome. Well, I've always heard that um if you burn garlic when making a tomato sauce, it's gonna make your sauce bitter. I was wondering if you could tell me why.
+
+[6:34] Huh. Uh that is true story. Uh I don't know why. It kind of caught me uh uh off guard. I mean, gar garlic is pretty complex uh and easy to burn because it's got a uh high sugar content.
+
+[6:47] I think that's why it burns so easy. Uh but I don't like the that acrid burnt taste that you get. I don't know exactly what's going on. It has to be like all of the interesting stuff with garlic has to do. I mean, garlic doesn't really have that much uh of its characteristic um sharp pungent flavor until it's been cut.
+
+[7:04] Right. So what happens is is that there's enzymes in the garlic, and when you cut it or crush it, those enzymes are acting on um there's like they're the I always forget the names. It's like Al Alanin and alison and all these ala blah blah blahs like that are like these chemicals that start out being relatively odorless uh and then uh develop all of their all of their pungency uh after they're cut and then are modified more or less by cooking. And since those are the chemicals that lead to the pungency, I would think that those are also the ones that lead to kind of those acrid uh flavors when they when they're cooked or when they get burnt, but I can't say for sure. There is an excellent book out on the subject.
+
+[7:41] It's called um I believe it's called garlic and other alliums, something like that. That it's lore. I just bought it. I actually read it but it's very dense so I can't remember whether there was any explanation of it because it was too much to look into. But uh next week we have Harold McD we have a list of stuff to ask Harold from the radio show?
+
+[7:58] We can make one. Let's make a list and uh I'll ask him that whether he knows specifically what it is because it he's read that book and spoke with that person so he he's thought a lot about that kind of a problem. Uh that's something I should know off the top of my head but do not I I do know however when you pressure cook garlic it uh it actually destroys a lot of the of the pungency so that in fact you know how even when you roast garlic you when you roast it still if you eat a lot of it it comes out of your pores over the over the course of several days and and your coworkers don't want to be anywhere near you. Again I know this from awful experience. When you pressure cook garlic uh th those principles are gone and you can actually eat a whole bunch of garlic without in fact we make sauces that are s you know upwards of fifty percent garlic and no one has a problem with them and it's very mellow, mellow flavor, and it's because a lot of those sulfur containing compounds that are in the garlic that give it the its pungency are kind of destroyed by that by the high heat uh on the inside of a pressure cooker.
+
+[8:55] So uh we will we will keep a list. Uh okay. So um we have uh Colin Gore writes in and says he has a handful of things on his mind lately. So let's look at those handful of things that are that are on his mind. Uh Collins built a vacuum chamber using a compressor harvested from a window mounted air conditioner to make uh a vacuum.
+
+[9:12] I love this kind of DIY kind of you know, do it yourself kind of stuff. And he says it works wonderfully, uh, but he's wondering about running it for more than a few minutes at a time because he's afraid he's gonna burn it out. Uh, you know, I wouldn't worry about it so much. The kind of the the great granddaddy of websites dealing with uh this problem is uh called the Bell Jar, uh and a bell jar being the you know an old vacuum thing that you put things in vacuum, the bell jar. So the bell jar, and it's based on a bunch of articles published a long, long time ago in Scientific American, the amateur scientists, which were fantastic.
+
+[9:41] Like I had one when I was a kid, like how to build lasers, amazing stuff. Scientific Americans old amateur scientist column, freaking amazing, amazing stuff. Anyway, the Bell Jar has a list of these things uh and and it it talks a lot about making vacuum pumps cheaply out of air conditioning units and refrigeration units. And a lot of w what the capabilities of your unit are depend on whether it's a rotary uh pump or whether it's a piston pump. Most refrigerator compressors are uh you know piston pumps and they're not gonna operate near you know nearly as well at low vacuum as these as these rotary pumps are.
+
+[10:12] So uh, you know, um so a lot a lot of air conditioners have a rotary pump. So if as long as you keep the thermal overload switch on the on the pump, you should be fine because if it cuts out, it's not gonna get hurt. You also obviously have to make sure that you didn't let the oil drain out of it. Um, you know, otherwise it's gonna burn out very quickly. But you should be able to run it no problem.
+
+[10:30] If it's overheating, you'll be able to tell because it's exposed. He also makes a uh a good note. Uh please uh don't just cut out a uh um you know a compressor out of an air conditioner and let the freon spray everywhere because you're opening yourself up to a fine and you're destroying the environment. I might also say don't use a saw when you're cutting a a compressor off of something because the little filings can get into the compressor and then that's bad, bad, bad, bad news. Colin has more questions, but first I think we're gonna go to a caller.
+
+[10:56] Caller, you are on the air. Hello, it's Joe here from London Dave. Hey, how you doing? We'll be out to see you in a just a couple of we'll be out in London in just a couple of days. Oh, great.
+
+[11:05] I hope to meet up with you. We've been really inspired by your uh blog and uh the show over here. Oh, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Dave, my question is um I'd like to prepare um large prawns or I guess langustin or you may call them shrimp, I'm not sure.
+
+[11:19] Right. Um I want to prepare them ahead of time, uh sous vide. Uh, and then finish them off on a grill so I can get some kind of mailard on them. Um I'm just not sure um what kind of temperature to cook them at and for how long. Right.
+
+[11:33] All right. Sh uh shrimp and prawns are interesting because they contain enzymes in them that if you uh if you cook them for extended periods of time, they go mushy, they turn to a paste, right? And so uh, you know, vacuum is a and sous vide is a very, very good way, first of all, to infuse flavor into into them and also to make sure that you know none of the flavor leaches out when you're cooking. But but you're gonna want to make sure that you um that you do it fairly quickly. You want to make sure that the um that the it's cooked through in like you know I would I would keep it if you can under twelve minutes or something like that.
+
+[12:12] It's otherwise you're gonna start breaking it down. And a good thing to do is to run a test just to see what happens when you cook it for a long, long time. You'll see it just gets really uh it gets really nasty. One way to do it is if you like more traditional texture is obviously to put the bag into a very high temp water. And that's what someone like George Prolou would do where he cooks his shellfish almost in boiling water, even when it's in a vacuum bag.
+
+[12:32] Another option, if you want to go more like the texture that you that people want off like a butter poached lobster or something like that, is to run it more like 65 degrees for like Celsius for like uh you know, 10, 10 to 12 minutes once it's out of its shell, obviously. You know what I mean? So that might be a similar thing you do with with uh with a prawn or a shrimp, but that's gonna give you a soft texture, more you know, more akin to uh on the lower side of being done than on the higher side, and then obviously you can firm it up with your finishing step, you know, with your finishing sear step, which is gonna put more of a uh, you know, more of a a crust on the outside and get it done. But you really the the key thing with it is just to not cook it for too long because it's gonna be and cool it down quick after it comes out because it's just gonna be a complete nightmare to you. You're gonna get you cannot believe how bad the texture of a long cooked uh you know shrimp or prawn can be.
+
+[13:22] I mean, I've uh it doesn't always happen, but it happens enough and you have to spit it out. It's like just it's just terrible. I yeah, that's really what I was trying to avoid by doing the sous vide step because I find that if I do it directly on the grill, if I'm doing like a large, say, like a 10, 12 um prawn, um I I can easily overcook it and it it gets very mushy and not not a pleasant flavor at all. Right. But you're gonna flash finish them on this one, right?
+
+[13:48] You're just gonna pre-cook them and then flash finish them? Yes, but I I'd like to do them in the shell because uh the shell adds a nice flavor when it's uh when it's grilled. So I d just will that change the cooking times, you think? No, not much. The shells are usually pretty thick.
+
+[14:01] You can do it head on too, or no? Yes, head-on too. Yeah, because the head's the best part anyway. But the uh uh not the best part, you know, it's delicious, that's what I mean to say. Sure, yeah.
+
+[14:09] But um one thing you want to be really careful of is that uh is that the shells on um on shrimp and prawns uh almost always pop vacuum bags. So you're gonna want to either double bag or wrap them in in something to protect the bag and to make sure that you have uh you know the the air doesn't come back into the chamber too fast because you're gonna start popping your bags. And after you pack them, you're gonna want to let them sit for I mean it's good to let them sit to marinate anyway. If you're gonna use like oil and salt and pepper or something, I mean I don't know what your recipe is, but you know, uh inside the bag, um, you know, then you're gonna want to let it sit for a half hour or so, not just to pick up the flavor of whatever you put in, but also to make sure you don't have any holes in it, right? Then I would I would go for a fairly quick cook, like uh like maybe 10 to I don't know the size of them, but like 10 10 minutes, 10 to 12 uh at like 65 or something like that.
+
+[14:59] And pull them out, cool them down, and then do your do your flash finish almost from cold because they'll already be cooked. And so you can cook them as at high a heat as you want to get that nice color and taste on the outside of the shell without having to worry about cooking the inside. Perfect, Dave. Perfect. Thank you so much.
+
+[15:13] All right, and and and uh please tell us your results, like write in and tell us whether whether it worked. This way I can uh see whether whether that worked. Okay, I'll maybe even put some photos in as well. Sounds great. Thanks so much.
+
+[15:25] Oh, and we're going to our first commercial break, but call in your questions at 718 497 2128, 718 497 2128. Cooking issues. Oh, how do you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good?
+
+[15:39] There's so much bone, brother. How do you feel, man? I'll feel my way. I don't want to know if people don't know you in. Yeah.
+
+[15:45] How you feel, fellas? Yeah! Sure getting down. This is a public service announcement from added value. Join us Saturday, October 16th at the Red Hook Community Farm.
+
+[16:00] Celebrate the harvest. Visit Brooklyn's largest urban farm. Delicious seasonal foods from local restaurants. EC, The Good Fork, Kevin's, the Lobster Pound, and Rice. And of course, pick up your produce at the Red Hook Farmers Market.
+
+[16:13] For more information, call 718-855-5531. That's 718-855-5531. Or visit www.added dash value.org. This has been a public service announcement from Added Value. Now I won't have about it.
+
+[16:36] Let Brad blow up my two cores. And then I want to wave me and let's go and do that within a now. All right. I'm gonna get that bellow with a little horn over there. Yeah.
+
+[16:51] Take us higher. Brad! Brad! Bad! And welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[17:01] Call in your questions right now to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 coming to you live from Roberta's in Brooklyn, New York. Okay. Uh we have some more of Colin's questions here. He has quite a few questions.
+
+[17:14] We're gonna try and hit them all. Uh so Colin, uh, to refresh you if you didn't listen to the first segment, Colin built his own vacuum machine, uh, his own vacu chamber vacuum machine using a uh a pump out of a uh a compressor out of an air conditioner. And there's lots of over the past couple of years, people who have done this kind of DIY chambers, but not just for food packing, for like making models, for doing vacuum bagging, like when they're doing resin. A lot of good reasons to build vacuum pumps out there and a lot of sites with a lot of great information on it. So uh he asks a question Can the walls of quartz size canning jars withstand uh a full vacuum, 14 psi.
+
+[17:46] Oh yes, they can. In fact, I use this trick all the time. When we're if you have a vacuum machine and you don't have what's called gas flush. So when you're using a vacuum machine and you have gas flush, it means that you suck a vacuum in the bag. Uh but you know, if you if you would then seal it and let the air come back in, let's say you had potato chips, bam, the potato chips will get smashed when the air came back in, it would just get shattered and you have potato dust, which is not what you're looking for, right?
+
+[18:09] So you have something called gas flush. And what that is is that you suck all the air out, so all the moisture is gone, so now your potato chips are not gonna go, and there's no oxygen, so the potato chips aren't gonna go rancid, and they're not gonna get uh they're not gonna get soft and nasty, and then you inject uh a neutral gas back in, usually nitrogen, you know, sometimes depending on what you're doing, CO2 or some crazy mix depending on what you're doing, and then you seal it, and then when the air comes back in, there's a neutral gas in there so that it's bag is still puffy. Your potato chips don't get smashed. And in fact, your potato chips are protected because they're inside of a pillow. So, anyway, uh so this is a technique that you can use.
+
+[18:42] If you don't have gas flush, which we just got actually in our new, we have a new vacuum machine in the school, and we'll be reporting on that at some point. But the um uh if you don't have gas flush, quart uh and larger liter canning jars are a very good way to do it. I would get the and they can take the pressure no problem. Uh what I would do is I would get the ones not the ones that have the the the thin metal lid that you then pry up. And the reason is that um they seal once great, and then like after you open the lid to pry it up, like make that noise when it pops up.
+
+[19:13] A lot of times they won't reseal. I like the old style ones that have a glass lid and a glass base and a rubber gasket, and then you just set the rubber the set the lid with the gasket on top of your canning jar, take all the metal hardware off of it, it's just gonna get in your way, suck the vacuum, and then when the vacuum comes back, the lid gets smashed back onto the top, and the actual vessel takes the pressure for you, not your potato chips or whatever the heck else you're gonna pack. And those vacuums, I've had them last for months and months. Sometimes you'll get a bad seal on those, but you you can usually tell within you know a couple of hours to a day that the seal on that jar is not going to be. How do you do it without a vacuum machine with those rubber seals?
+
+[19:51] Well the rubber when you're canning with those things, usually the rubber seals, they have a um a lid on it, right? So you'd you'd boil them and you know, you you boil them, um, I guess you start boiling them and then maybe seal them while they're boiling, and then they and then as they as the uh as it cools down, you'll suck a partial vacuum on the top, and then you have to open it. I mean, it's like I guess it's an old, it's I've never actually used them to can, I've only used them to package things. But they're great. You can get them in most in most uh houseware stores, and we use them all the time.
+
+[20:19] So if you're bringing something that's crisp, like apple chips or potato chips or methyl cell F50 uh, you know, meringue pus, which is what we do a lot, um, you know, you can keep them for a long time and you can, you know, travel in a rainstorm, you know, through Louisiana in a bayou, what it doesn't matter, and the and the stuff's not gonna go bad on you. So it's actually a really good technique for bringing stuff with you. Not as good as having gas flush, but um because it's just a pain in the butt. But anyway. Uh so on the subject of vacuums, Colin wants to know that he's making apple chips and he wants to he wants to get that same kind of same foamy texture that you get from um from doing uh freeze drying.
+
+[20:55] Uh, and he wants to know how can how can you do that? Well, that's a pain in the butt, Colin, because freeze drying is a really good technique for doing that. Nothing else really approximates freeze drying the way freeze drying does. So the way a freeze-dryer works is you freeze something uh, you know, uh usually at a fairly low temperature to get you know to minimize the destruction of stuff to the cells quickly and low temperature, and then you let it you put a very strong vacuum on it and you let it uh heat up slowly in that until the water uh inside of it basically sublimates. And what that means is you put it in a condition where uh the water doesn't want to go from a solid to a liquid and then to a gas, it just evaporates directly from a solid to a gas.
+
+[21:36] And so what that means is is that the structure of the product is held rigidly by by the ice until the water leaves it, at which point it it maintains its structure. And that's why you have things that look pretty much life size, but they have no more water in them, they're very porous, they're crunchy, they're great, and that's freeze drying. The problem is the equipment is usually somewhat expensive. You need a you need a fairly good vacuum pump. You also need what's called a cold trap because everything that you everything you um suck off, you then need to um recondense back.
+
+[22:02] So you need a fairly cold cold trap. I've tried to do it kind of a ghetto style freeze dryer using my rotary evaporator, but my pump isn't quite good enough. My vacuum pump isn't quite good enough. So you know, some people have one. Alex Talbot at Ideas and Food has one.
+
+[22:17] Um, you know, a couple of restaurants have them. I think I think maybe Laurent Gras might have one at L2O. I don't know. Anyway, we don't have a vac uh freeze dryer. Someday, someday I'll have one.
+
+[22:25] Um anywho, so but there is an interesting uh patent that's been applied for. I think it's still under patent. So if you do this, you're going to be breaking all kinds of patent laws. I don't really care about that, but there's a technique called uh uh basic it's basically fruit puffing using vacuum and then carbon dioxide. And if you are the kind of person who can rip apart an air conditioner and build a vacuum chamber, then you are also the kind of person who can do this.
+
+[22:52] And hopefully I don't have time to do it, so maybe you can do it and tell me tell me how it works. So here's here's what you do. First thing you do is you partially dehydrate a product till it's down to like about 60% 20 to 60% water. You can do that with a standard dehydration or you can use what's called osmotic dehydration. What that is is you put you put your fruit into an a very intense sugar syrup and that draws the water out osmotically.
+
+[23:13] It's osmotic dehydration. So you can do it that way. You could do it with a partial dehydration step. But the trick is to get rid of I think about half the half the water or so a little under half the water. Then you take your apple slices at this point and you put them into uh into your vacuum chamber and you suck a full vacuum on them for a little bit, right?
+
+[23:31] Then you put a CO2 tank on and you pressurize it to about you know a little over 200 psi, right? So uh and that's the minimum is about they in the patent literature the minimum is about 200, 220 psi of CO2 and you want to leave that for like 60 minutes under the high pressure CO2. So what's happening is a CO2 is going into the fruit and it's basically getting uh it's is going all the way into the uh the cells and then you want to vent it uh over the course of like uh 30 seconds so after that 60 minutes you vent it over the course of 30 seconds and the rapidly escaping CO2 takes with it the water and puffs the fruit up at the same time so that's dehydrates and then any further dehydration you could probably do in a normal dehydrate or something like that. So it's a room temperature technique so it's similar to freeze drying that way and um it doesn't require um as much expensive equipment as a as a as a freeze dryer does. So if you can try this vacuum then CO2 puffing Colin I would be much obliged if you then tell us how it works and post pictures.
+
+[24:33] But be extremely careful with pressure vessels. Make sure that you are using a pressure vessel that can handle the pressure. I don't want anyone blowing something up and you know, basically creating a pipe bomb and killing themselves uh over something I said. So, you know, certain um, you know, schedule 40 pipe, which is a standard pipe you get will not handle these kinds of pressures um safely. Uh schedule 80 pipes, some schedule 80 pipes can handle it.
+
+[24:55] Um so just anyway, so be careful, make sure you know what you're doing. Uh, you know, and just but I'd love to see someone try that, even though I think you'd be infringing on a bunch of patents, and you know that they might come and arrest you. But uh, you know, again, uh hopefully not. Um and Colin's last question is uh he's making an alginate bath and he wants to know how long he can keep it. All right, so I don't know whether have we talked about this ever?
+
+[25:15] The alginate bath? No, I don't even think you talked about the pancakes. The pancakes? Yeah. No, all right.
+
+[25:20] Well, we'll talk about this then. Okay, okay. So uh sodium alginate is uh kind of very famous. It's made from seaweed, and what it does is it's the stuff that people make little balls out of uh in restaurants, like they call it caviar, blah, blah, blah. And the standard thing is you take, and by the way, it's also how they make the pimento on the inside of uh of an olive, it's how they make fake onion rings, it's how they, you know, some dog foods are made this way.
+
+[25:41] And so you take this seaweed, sodium alginate, and you mix it in, and whenever it touches anything with calcium in it, it all of a sudden turns to a gel, right? So the standard technique that uh, you know, it was used for forever to make fake blueberries, and it was used also by science teachers who, you know, do it in science. But the famous early restaurant application was Ferron uh Adrian, who's actually coming to speak at the French culinary today. Later today. He's gonna be signing books and coming to the coming to the FCI.
+
+[26:05] So uh so Ferron, you know, famously made melon caviar out of alginate, and alginate in restaurants was born, right? Now the problem with alginate is that it doesn't really have a great texture or taste. And so in fact, it steals taste. It's like a flavored thief. So alginate, and also the other problem is if you make these balls, you drop alginate into calcium, it forms this beautiful sphere, but then over the course of the next couple of minutes, it turns solid.
+
+[26:30] And once it turns solid, it's completely unpleasant. If it doesn't pop in your mouth, it's it's unpleasant. So then the next step is that you know, Chef started doing what's called reverse alginate. So in reverse alginate, instead of dropping alginate into a calcium bath and forming this little balls, you're dropping calcium into an alginate bath, and then you get a little film of uh of alginate around it, but the inside stays liquid forever, right? And so, and so that is kind of I think it's it's it's a better technique from a from a food standpoint.
+
+[26:57] But then you have these alginate baths sitting around, and the question is well, how long can you keep that alginate bath without it going bad? I've never kept one longer than about two or three days. Uh, but a lot of it depends on how heavily it's used, how much calcium you know gets touches it, and you have to use something called a sequestrant. And so what a sequestrant is a sequestrant um sucks up the calcium that's inside of your uh solution and uh stops it from causing the alginate to react until there's so much calcium there that a reaction happens. And they and and the the two goods I mean sodium citrate is kind of the the sequestrant that people just have lying around, it's not so good.
+
+[27:33] Sodium citrate is also a buffer, uh, which is good, but it's kind of crap. You really want to use sodium hexametaphosphate. Uh I'll say that again because that's a pain in the butt. Sodium hexametaphosphate. Hexametaphosphate, is that right?
+
+[27:45] It says anyway, call it shimp, A S H M P shimp. And uh a little little dabble duty on that one, you know, you get yourself a couple hundred grams of that, and that's a lifetime supply of shimp, and uh put it into your into your alginate bath, and it should last a good long, a good long time. We actually did a demo recently, uh Nastasha and I, for what the heck was that show called? Uh foodography. Yeah.
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+[28:06] For the cooking channel. For the cooking channel. I mean, it's not it's not out yet or anything, but what we did with that was uh we we wanted to do like our version of the McGriddle kind of, which is you know for those of you that and I don't I don't you know I've never had a McGriddle but it's basically uh McDonald's puts like crystals of uh of uh maple syrup or goop some sort of maple syrup goop on the inside of their pancake and the reason they're doing that is because the pancake becomes I think a sandwich inside yeah yeah something something like that anyway so what we did is we made uh we did reverse allergenate we mixed calcium with maple syrup and then uh put it into alginate so we had these little balls of maple syrup that then when you bit into them they pop you actually get a pop of maple syrup and we folded a bunch of them into a pancake batter buttermilk pancake batter your standard buttermilk pancake battery and cook them and they were actually pretty good I thought yeah no they were delicious they were delicious so you made them into silver dollars so they were yeah right little silver dollar pancakes so take that McDonald's but anyway so uh it should it should your algorithm bath should last a good long time we're gonna go to a break Dave we are all right uh well we're gonna come back uh from our second session but uh call in your questions to 718-4972128 that's 718-497-2128 cooking issues you know what we're not here, group like this oh hey I got yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[29:59] Black way up young man. Ah! It's things. No. No.
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+[30:16] Grip. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Uh call in your questions too. 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. We're gonna be here for about another 15 minutes.
+
+[30:37] And by the way, we mentioned the list we're gonna keep of questions we're gonna ask McGee. He's in Japan right now, or we would call and ask him right now. But uh the man himself is coming to uh the French culinary for his class next week. The 21st and 22nd of October. And there are still slots available for those of you that want to come meet the man in person and take the two-day McGee Lecture Series class at the French Culinary Studio.
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+[30:59] It's a class unlike any other, actually. We're gonna be doing some Ikijime, killing some fish. We might be doing what else we're gonna do for the week. We're getting a giant lobster. I don't know where they're gonna do a giant lobster.
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+[31:08] We're gonna definitely do some uh lime juice test. It's it's uh it's a class unlike any other. Let's just put it that way. You can go check it out on the French uh culinary website, which is I don't know, Frenchculinary.com. I think so.
+
+[31:18] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh so uh I have a question from Patrick Brawley, and he's wondering uh in general, what percentage of ascorbic acid to use as an antioxidant? Uh and so the the thing is ascorbic acid is it's vitamin C, right? So and we use it all the time when we're when we're you know doing fruits like apples or anything else, it's gonna turn brown.
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+[31:40] We put ascorbic acid in to prevent it from turning brown. In fact, we put ascorbic acid into uh apple juice as we make it, it'll stay green and fresh tasting until it actually spoils. It'll never go brown, it'll never have that oxidized apple taste. And uh the question of percentage is an interesting one. Uh I spoke to Nils about it actually this morning.
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+[31:58] We always just add by eye. We've never actually measured how much ascorbic acid we're doing. Uh it's not hypercritical how much you use it, but I did some research, and usually it how much you use depends on your application. So if you're gonna make a let's say you're cutting apples and you're gonna put ascorbic acid into uh the water and you're gonna try to try to keep it, then it's usually a higher dose. Or if you're gonna dehydrate it then afterwards, you want the ascorbic acid uh to enough to get on the apple to have it really make a difference, then you're gonna probably use something on the order of six grams a liter, something like that, right?
+
+[32:31] But if you're adding it to juice, then you probably need a lot less. You probably need like maybe half of that, like three grams per liter, or you know, something something like that. But uh, we usually just add like you know, a teaspoon or so to per quart or something like that or less. Uh, but you know, it doesn't it doesn't really affect the flavor that much. Ascorbic acid is a much lower um has a much lower impact on flavor than like citric acid, which brings me to my next point.
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+[32:57] Never confuse citric acid and ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. Ascorbic acid is the antioxidant. Citric acid, and it does not taste like lemons. It's an has an acidic taste, but it doesn't taste like lemons.
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+[33:10] Citric acid does not have the same antioxidant power as ascorbic acid. Citric acid does taste like the acid in lemons, right? But they're often confused. Sour salt that you buy in the supermarket is citric acid, right? You want to make sure you get ascorbic acid.
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+[33:27] And when you buy ascorbic acid, if you go to a GNC or whatever, your vitamin store and you buy uh vitamin C powder or pills, you want to make sure you get the straight stuff and not stuff that's like got rose hips and all this other nonsense because that's gonna add flavor, and you're really not looking to add uh flavor to to your product. Um if you're gonna make apple cider and you put it in there, is it not gonna turn the apple cider brown? It's not only not gonna turn the apple cider brown, it's not gonna taste like apple cider. It's gonna taste like fresh apples, right? So the so the care so when we're doing work where we want the apple, we want the characteristic flavor of an apple.
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+[34:03] Like let's say we're juicing uh like you know, my favorite, ashmead's kernel, right? I want the juice to taste like that's an apple variety. Uh and I want the and by the way, Nastasha and I next week when we go to London, we're gonna go to the Brogdale collection, which is uh uh Cornell has the finest collection of biggest, I mean, and also finest, I guess, collection of apples in the world, but they also have a they have a lot of non-culinary apples. The Broguedale, which is you know, you know, the UK's apple collection in Kent, uh, which is outside of London, uh, they have the largest collection of culinary apples in the world. So Nastash and I are gonna go there and I'm gonna eat so many apples that um that basically they have to shove a like a needle in my stomach and like evacuate all of the craziness that's I'm gonna eat apples until I pass out, basically.
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+[34:48] I'm gonna take up I've become allergic to apples actually over the last couple of years, so I'm gonna bring a whole bunch of Benadryl with me. And I'm just gonna I'm gonna wait until my throat starts to swell. I'm gonna inject myself with uh with epinephrine and take Benadryl because I'm I'm there to eat as many apples as is humanly possible, and we'll report back. Uh anyway, so if you're juicing ash mead's kernel, which I hope to taste next next uh week, uh, because our supplier of Ashmade's kernel uh gut was destroyed this year because we there was a killing frost in in parts of the northeast this year. Anyway, uh so uh when you're juicing it and you want that taste of the fresh apple, if you want the juice to taste like you just bit into that apple, minus the crunch, then you use ascorbic acid and it's going to retain its original color and its original flavor.
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+[35:28] It's not the flavor we associate with apple juice. The flavor we associate with apple juice and apple cider is that brown flavor because the oxidation doesn't just change the color, it also changes the flavor. Uh and so you only add it if you're looking for that fresh flavor, and you don't add it if you want that that you know, cider and or and or juice flavor. Um but that said, I love that fresh flavor, and it makes really great mixers. And so if you're juicing your own apples, we use a sc we go through ascorbic acid like it's like it's going out of style.
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+[35:58] Uh the other question Patrick had is he was he was trying to uh uh make an agar gel. I have a lot of uh hydrocolor cushions this time. Yeah. Well, you're having the class coming up too. Uh but I I would push the class, but it's sold out.
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+[36:09] You'll have to say it's sold out. Like we do a hydrocolloids class at school where we teach you how to use all these things like agar, xanthan, also meat glue, which is transglutaminase. We're gonna show you how to use SPL, which is the enzyme we use to do clarifications, all this stuff, it's great. But unfortunately, I think the class, I mean, maybe it's not sold out. Check it on the French Culinary.com.
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+[36:26] I think it's I think it's sold out. I'm not sure. Um, so uh he's making Patrick's making a an agar gel. Agar is another seaweed gel. It's a great one.
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+[36:35] I highly recommend that you know, if if you've just started playing with hydrocolloids, use agar because you can use it to clarify, you can use it to set gels, you can use it to make fluid gels, which are my one of my favorite things to do with uh hydrocolloids in the kitchen. Uh, but he wants to make uh the problem with agar is agar is brittle, right? So it breaks very easily. He's trying to increase the elasticity. And he says uh, you know, and typically you would do that by adding another gum called locust bean gum, another natural gum.
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+[36:59] That one's from basically ground up seeds. Um and so the the question is is that he doesn't want to use uh and the locust bean gum basically uh just modifies the agar so it's less brittle, right? So it's a you a lot of times if you add uh like a thickener like that to a gel, uh so thickeners locust bean gum, agar is a gel, you can make it a little bit softer. And he says, Is there anything else you can use? Well, because it because he says LBG, locust bean gum in the biz we call it LBG, uh, that it's too expensive.
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+[37:25] I don't know what the per pound cost is on LBG when you're buying it, but you're not going to use that much. I would go ahead and buy the LBG. I mean, unless you're make because you know, one pound of LBG should be in more than enough to do 200, you know, 200 or more, 300 pounds of uh just as a softener uh of uh agar gel. So I don't know what you're charging, what they're charging for. I mean, check Terra Spice in in the US, uh, I don't know, or Le Sanctuaire, they sell it.
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+[37:51] But the problem is you can go with a much cheaper gum like guar, but guar tastes terrible. Guar is another bean, it's very similar to locust bean gum, not quite as good probably at modifying the texture, but it will work. Uh the problem with guar is, like I say, is it tastes horrible unless you buy flavor-free guar from T I C gums. But I don't know how cheap the uh T I C gums flavor free uh guar is, but that is one way around it. Uh so hopefully that is helpful.
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+[38:20] And we have one last question from Norway. Uh so uh Eric from with the uh real spelling with the K like that anyway. So Eric from Norway uh uh writes in and he's making he's in a restaurant in Norway and he's making a lot of lobster stock. Uh and he's making a lobster stock and then reducing it um for use later. And he says that he's getting a good um he's getting a good taste out of the lobster stock, presumably he's doing it tradition traditional way, which is you break up the lobster shells.
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+[38:48] You rope where you roast and or roast and or break up or both, I don't know, whichever order, it doesn't really matter, till you get some color on them, and then you break them up and then you you cook them in uh in liquid to extract the flavor from the shells, right? That's typically then you would strain out the shells and then you would and you know use the stock. Uh after that, he reduces it and makes it uh makes a reduction out of it. He says it's usable, but it doesn't taste like fresh lobster. Um do you have a better way to do it?
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+[39:11] And can you do it in a pressure cooker and because he needs an excuse to get one? Well, I will I will do anything I can. Send me a menu, I will give you an excuse to buy a pressure cooker, but this is not that excuse because um I was talking to Nils about this actually uh earlier today. You don't one of the main problems people have when they make a lot any sort of crustacean stock is they boil the uh they boil the shells too long, and they the sh the all of a sudden the stock will take on this like horrible, we ascribe it, I don't know technically whether it is, but Nils and I always call it the calcium taste. And it all of a sudden starts to taste not like the shellfish itself, but like literally like you're chewing on shells.
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+[39:48] And we ascribe that to like maybe the calcium being leached out. So while I've never done it, so I'm always horrified. I'm always making sure that people don't leave the shells in my stocks too long when we're doing it because I I dread that taste. Uh once you pull it out and you reduce it, that it's that's fine, you're never gonna get that taste. But um, but anyway, so Nils, so don't use a pressure cooker on that one because I'm almost guaranteeing you that the higher temperature is gonna cause an increased release of of that stuff, and it's you're gonna get that taste.
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+[40:16] I can't, I'm almost guaranteeing it because I haven't actually done it, but that's my feeling. That's my strong feeling that that's what's gonna happen. Um, but Mill said that you because he had tested this, I asked him whether he could get a fresher flavor. If you don't roast the shells uh beforehand, you're not going to have as intense a flavor, but maybe it's going to be okay because you're going to reduce it, but it might be closer to a fresh lobster flavor. Another thing, um, you know, you know, um Eric had asked whether he can clarify the stock and is he going to lose a lot of flavor out of it.
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+[40:44] I don't think he's going to lose a lot of flavor if you clarify your stock, like doing a gel clarification or like that. But if you're preserving the oil, he said he had the oil on the top of the stock and he takes the oil off, he emulsifies it back into this stock anyway. If you're going to emulsify oil back into the stock as part of a reduction, I don't necessarily see the point in clarifying it because you're you're just you it's going to make it unclear once you emulsify the oil in anyway. So if long if you're gonna have oil in it, I don't see the point of clarifying it. But clarifying the water phase by itself isn't, I don't think going to damage the flavor that much.
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+[41:14] Might make it cleaner, a little lighter, but cleaner. One last suggestion I have for you to really extract some flavor out of it, is you might consider breaking the shells up, either roasting them or not, depending on what flavor you want, and then doing um circulating some butter in the shells first to extract some of the oil soluble flavors, basically making like a lobster butter, reserve that, then do a stock with that, suck out all the water soluble stuff, then reduce that, then do your emulsifying like almost like you were finishing the reduction with the crisp with the basically lobster butter you've made, and then you should get the maximum amount of flavor out of those shells without uh hopefully without sucking out the the evil nasty calcium bits. And you know, if you do it right, you should be able to get you know, maybe a fresher flavor. Like maybe you could also maybe do the butter poach before you do the uh before you but do the butter poach before you roast them and then roast them, and then you could do all sorts of combinations. But again, I'm very curious as to what happens, so you know, you you should write in, hopefully, and tell us and tell us what happened.
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+[42:14] Just don't put it in the pressure cooker. Uh, but I love pressure cookers again. I'll give you any excuse. Ask me any other question, I'll tell you you need a pressure cooker, but not for that one. Uh one last question I had, it actually came into the blog, but I'll just answer it here.
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+[42:25] Is uh can you make bananas Houstina without a centrifuge? And can you do it with agar clarification? So for those of you that haven't uh come to any of our events recently, one of our favorite new drinks, in fact, we did it at the uh Heritage Radio Network, uh, you know, fundraiser a couple weeks ago, is uh bananas Houstino. And uh so uh and the name is too the derivation of the name is too silly to go into now, but basically we we make a rum banana custino and we make a bourbon banana cestino. Uh and uh so what you do is is you blend uh bananas.
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+[42:54] So when you're doing bourbon banana custino, it's five uh it's five bananas per liter of bourbon. And you blend them, you add a little bit of uh of our magical enzyme, Pectanex SPL, which is you know a genius. In fact, it doesn't that recipe doesn't work without it, because we tested it at uh the New York Culinary Experience event we did, was that last week? Was that only last week? Holy holy crap.
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+[43:15] Anyway, so you you blend it together, you put it in a centrifuge, and you spin it at 4,000 uh, you know, G's uh for like you know, 15 minutes, and you get this delicious clear, delicious clear bourbon with banana in it, and then you we we make uh ice cubes that are basically either if we're gonna use it today, it's brown sugar, lemon, and water. If we're gonna use it tomorrow and vanilla, uh it's brown sugar, citric acid and uh and uh you know, water and uh vanilla if we're gonna use it later. Anyway, and so it's a great drink, and it's garnished with uh candied ginger. It's great. We love it.
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+[43:46] Anyway, uh so that particular drink needs a centrifuge, but you could do an agar clarification of it. I don't know what your yield is gonna be, so you might have to add uh you I mean your yield might be not me. I know your yield won't be as good. So what you would do, and the other problem with agar clarification with bourbon is that if you don't have access to liquid nitrogen, the bourbon won't freeze. So oh, but you could do quick agar clarification.
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+[44:12] I was thinking freeze thaw. My brain just went on z Zorch. You could do quick agar. So then what you would do is you would blend the bananas and the bourbon. You would um I would take some water, right?
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+[44:23] Uh I would hydrate. So let's say, let's let I'll give it we we'll do an actual recipe here, right? Let's say you blend uh what do you think? I don't know, like 200 grams of bananas and a liter of bourbon, so that's roughly 1200 milliliters, right? Let's say you took 400 mils of water.
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+[44:39] Uh what is that, 1800? Yeah. Shoot, eighteen hundred. No, two, six, six sixteen hundred. Well, I can't do the math.
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+[44:47] Anyway, then point two percent of that. So let's say it was two liters. Let's say you had two liters of stuff. You would take uh um, you know, uh what is it, four grams of agar. You would then hydrate that in the water portion.
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+[44:59] Don't add the water to the bourbon and blend the bananas. Hydrate it in your water portion. Make sure that you put it the agar into the water cold, make sure it boils and then simmers for a couple of minutes to make sure it's hydrated. Temper your bourbon back and bananas back into the uh water, and then let that set in the uh and once it sets, break it up with a whisk and like gently pass it through cheesecloth. Again, I don't know what your yield will be, but it should get a similar result.
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+[45:24] I mean, the reason we use a centrifuge is I have three. Well, and the events are usually upwards of 300 people attending. So yeah, I mean you could definitely make it at home this way, you know, but but like our yield is just so high using the you know, we get almost zero loss when we do it uh in the centrifuge, and so that's the reason we use the centrifuge, but uh you can definitely make banana Zustino at home using agar and uh and bananas and bourbon and um I almost guarantee you it will work. Right? No?
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+[45:57] Yes. All right. So next week, save up your questions. We will be doing live from London, but unlike last week when we did it, uh, we are going to be uh both Nastasha and I will both be in London. And so I think Jack is gonna be our our local our local host.
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+[46:12] Is that true? Jack, our intrepid engineer who doesn't come on the air very often, but is runs the show here basically. Without it, we uh we wouldn't have it. Uh but before we go, I will leave you with this with this one thing. So we went uh we did an event on last uh Saturday.
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+[46:26] Yesterday, two, three days ago. What now what was the name of the event again? This is uh Live Fit or Die or No, Fun Fit in the City. Fun Fit Live Fit or Die. Where'd you get that?
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+[46:35] It's crazy. Fun fit in the City. Anyway, we were at the Discovery the Discovery Zone, it's called right. It's a school, it's a charter school in Harlem on 125th Street and uh was it in Madison or Fifth, I forget. Between both anyway, so it's just it's actually an amazing school.
+
+[46:49] We went to visit it. It's really incredible. It's like it's a huge place. It looks amazing, like it's a kind of school I wish I could have gone to when I was a kid. Anyway, we were doing an event there for the Liberty Science Center and the Food Network, who were putting an event together and they were talking about nutrition.
+
+[47:03] And so they asked uh, you know, they asked us to go up and do uh do you know, do a demonstration that somehow had something to do with nutrition for like a couple hundred people, and immediately of course genemic acid popped into my head. So genemic acid is uh the thing we use that erases your sense of sweet. So we passed out uh a you know, a bunch of gymnemic acid, which is a leaf basically from the uh gymnima silvestri. It's a plant from India. Lone Noklia's the sugar destroyer.
+
+[47:29] And uh, and you eat this incredibly awful tasting uh leaf powder, and for about half an hour you can't taste anything sweet at all, at all. No nothing, no sweetness. And so we passed out the powder, and along with uh bananas, not banana zustino, it was because it was all kids, so no liquor, unfortunately. Um strawberries, marshmallows, chocolate, sugar, honey, uh, and I think a couple other things. Anyway, we pass them out in bags, and you know, we're basically trying to show people you know what food items taste like without the sugar in it.
+
+[47:59] And we actually do that demo in the McGee class. Uh anyway, so we had a bunch of people there, and then I was on stage, and a lot by the way, like we opened it, right? So we were kind of the opening band, but uh, you know, they had uh Rachel Ray was on next and Mehmet Oz and some guy from Men's Health who I can never I don't remember his name. And uh Alonzo Morning, real yeah, I mean a real dude. Anyway, it's like real like real people.
+
+[48:19] Anyway, so uh, you know, unlike us. And uh so I'm sitting there and I felt bad that uh you know that the people didn't have more to eat, and plus there was a huge bowl of oranges on the on the counter. And so I open up the orange so I can taste the orange. Oh, pineapple juice is uh I taste the orange to see kind of how bad the orange tastes without sugar, it was awful. And uh, and so then I'm stupidly I'm sitting here eating an orange, and now I feel like a bad host because I have all these people out in the audience and they don't have any oranges.
+
+[48:48] Of course, I have nowhere near enough oranges for like all the people in the audience. And uh like an idiot, I say, Oh, because I'm eating this orange, oh, would would any of you like to have an orange? And of course, everyone's hands shoot up, right? Immediately. So I'm like crap.
+
+[49:04] And so now I'm like, you know, like the t-shirt gun lady, you know, I'm like hurling oranges out into the audience. Now, I'm not exactly like Captain Catch and throw here, you know what I mean? In fact, I told this one guy, I was like, sorry, you know, I don't you know, I'm not very good at throwing things. I I hit, I got to him fine, he was a catch. So then my biggest fear was I was gonna, and in fact, I think I said it was like I'm gonna bean someone with one of these damn oranges, and I hit a lady square in the head with an orange.
+
+[49:32] I bounced the orange straight off the top of her head. I was like, uh and like I saw her, her hands were there. It wasn't actually a bad throw. Maybe it was a little too much of a line drive to her, but her hands were there, and the hand didn't close around the orange in time, and it bounced off of her head, and and uh the lady behind her caught it. So it's total total orange pandemonium.
+
+[49:52] But I think no one came up and tried to beat the crap out of me afterwards. So I think they were real people. Yeah, anyway, so yeah, so that uh that was uh it was a lot of fun, and hopefully those guys got something out of it. Anyway, so get your questions ready for cooking issues coming to you live from London next week. This has been Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network brought to you by S.
+
+[50:10] Wallace Edwards, fine country hands. Vicious fish is crap. Oh, you daddy crap. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby between the minutes late.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues has been proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market reminds you that every bite has a story. So whether it's a tomato, a muffin, or a T bone steak, your conscious food choices can change the planet. Because at Whole Foods Market, every single purchase you make helps us support things like animal welfare, organic agriculture, equitable trade, and energy offsets. Let's think before we eat.
+
+[0:22] Let's retake our plates. Oh, you dead. And I don't know where I'm at. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:53] I am not in the studio today. Today we're coming live to you from London's Heathrow Ape uh Airport as uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and I are waiting to fly back to uh New York City. But we're still here live to take all of your cooking related questions. Uh call in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:14] Now, unfortunately, Nastasha's sitting next to me and we can't have two of our cell phones calling in at once, so she's gonna have to just make comments uh next to me from the from the peanut gallery. But we're gonna try to do uh the best we can. Actually, Nastash and I were both over here doing uh demonstration uh for uh of rotary evaporation here in London, which is interesting. We had to hang out with our other good rotary evaporation friend, Tony Calliaro. Uh and uh it was a good time, right?
+
+[1:40] Yeah. Anyway. So uh we have some email questions, thankfully. Oh, do I like to set up the call number? Call in your questions to seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[1:48] That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Uh so uh Marv Woodhouse from Belfast UK writes in uh I'm hoping to get an ISI cream whipper for Christmas. Can the same unit be used for CO2 and N2O cartridges? I would like to use the same unit for infusion and for carbonation. Uh okay, so first of all, what we're talking about is the uh the you know the things that you buy to make whipped cream.
+
+[2:09] They're made by ISI, which is a company out of Austria. Uh anyway, so they have the ones that are made for soda water, uh, which are you know, the soda sisons, and they have the ones that are meant for whipped cream, right? Uh and the main difference between those two is the soda ones have uh a uh like a tube. First of all, the neck is much smaller, and they have a tube that goes down to the bottom of them so that when you press the the little lever to dispense it, the the liquid is forced through the tube and out of the uh nozzle, just like you know, in the three stooges. Everyone gets sprayed in the face of seltzer, that kind of thing, right?
+
+[2:41] Uh but they both take the exact same cartridges. So you can put uh N2O, the whipped cream cartridges into an into a CO2 machine, and you can put uh you can put and and vice versa. They they they both work. Now I would definitely recommend getting the cream whipper rather than the uh rather than the seltzer one. The seltzer one has a much smaller neck, so you can't put a lot of things into it uh as easily as you can into the whipped cream one, and you can actually carbonate.
+
+[3:04] I mean it's not my favorite to carbonate, but you can carbonate with the whipped cream uh with the whipped cream thing. The the trick is um you know, you you have to just vent off the excess CO2, open it, and pour it all out. You can't dispense it like a three stooges uh movie. You have to actually vent it and then pour all pour all the carbonated liquid out. Usually when you're carbonating with a with a uh whipped cream maker, though, what you want to make do is put some uh put some ice in so it's very, very cold.
+
+[3:28] Make sure everything's extremely, extremely cold, and it's probably gonna take two chargers. You're gonna want to shake, you're gonna want to, and this is in a regular whipped cream maker. You're gonna want to put your first CO2 cartridge in, shake it up a bit, and then vent it out. Now you're getting rid of all the air and everything in there. That air is what's gonna the air is your main enemy in carbonation.
+
+[3:43] So one of the main problems I have with carbonating in those bottles is that you can't get all the air out of the headspace. So basically, that first charger is really venting all of the air out of the head space and also uh getting rid of a lot of the stuff that's going to make it foam. And then the second charger you put on, the second CO2 charger is what's really going to get it nice and fizzy. Then you put your second charger in, shake it, and let it stand for a couple of minutes for the bubbles to settle down, slow, slowly, slowly vent it, unscrew it, and pour it out, and you should have a delicious carbonated product even in your whipped cream whippers. So that is a I would definitely go uh Marv for the uh whipped cream maker and not the CO2.
+
+[4:21] Uh anyway, okay. So we have uh a second question from Melissa. Uh Melissa actually uh graduated from uh Stanford, you know, for those of you out there, Nastasha is a Stanford graduate, the same year uh as Nastasha, uh, and so uh they have, I guess, some sort of uh kindred kindred spirit. Uh but she has a couple of questions. One relating to mangoes.
+
+[4:43] Um both uh she and her fiance are uh huge mango fans. I mean, she grew up in Malaysia, I guess, which is you know, they have some good mangoes in Malaysia. I've never gotten to go to Malaysia, but I hear they have some good sort of there, so we'll assume they were good. Um so they they you know, eat them by the by the boat load, everyone loves the mangoes, and then all of a sudden, about six years ago, her fiance develops this uh this allergy to mangoes, right? And uh and actually I feel, you know, I I feel for this as well because uh I was allergic to nothing growing up, and then all of a sudden when I became about 30, 31 years old, I developed a uh an allergy to cherries.
+
+[5:18] Now they my throat closes up and I have to go to the hospital and all this, it's it's a nightmare. So my wife doesn't let me have any more cherries, even though they're actually my favorite fruit. I guess, you know, I was being punished for uh always making fun of other people's allergies. So because I always make fun of other people's allergies, you know, someone said, Hey, how about you become allergic to your favorite fruit? Anyway, um and interestingly, uh, he became allergic after sitting down and consuming an entire box of mangoes in one sitting.
+
+[5:42] This guy sounds like he's you know, kinda like me a little bit. The way I did it with cherries is well first I had a preposterous m uh number of lobsters at this summer party, and then, you know, I I bought a giant bag of cherries to kind of wash down the the lobsters, and of course I ate the whole bag by myself and I ended up in the hospital. So I guess there is something too you know, too much of a good thing. Uh and so her question is, is there any way to neutralize the toxin in mangoes to make them edible for someone who's allergic to them without compromising the integrity of their flavor or texture, uh either through some physical cooking method or by adding some kind of neutralizing it. The first uh way, and this is the way I hope it is, uh for him, that you can be allergic to mangoes, is you can be allergic to uh uh a a chemical uh which I can never get the name right, but it's like u your which is basically it's very similar to the right here's the chemical that's in poison ivy, and there's a little bit of that chemical in the out in the mango skin and in the sap, right?
+
+[6:42] So and then you're gonna get like a contact, like you're gonna get a rash, basically a dermatitis from touching it. Well, just like you would get from poison ivy. The good news is if you if you wear gloves and you peel the mango relatively thickly and don't let the peel get back onto the fruit after you cut it. The people who are allergic to that, to uh the eruciool or however you pronounce it, like th those those people can um can have mango, okay. Now um the there are people though who are legitimately allergic to the mangoes uh themselves, right?
+
+[7:11] And that's closer to the allergy I have with uh with cherries. And most fruit allergies basically uh have uh uh to do with proteins that are on uh that are on the fruit, in the fruit, and and somehow they seem to be from the research I've done related to um actually pollen allergies. And unfortunately, uh there's no way to uh get rid of those in a raw fruit. Now it certain of these proteins are destroyed by cooking. So it like theoretically with me, I could eat cooked cherries, but unfortunately I never really like cooked cherry products.
+
+[7:40] I just like raw cherries, and I don't feel like experimenting with it and ending up in the hospital and having my wife like you know, call me an idiot for for experimenting with cooked cherries and going to the hospital. But it is theoretically possible that um that you can cook it and have the allergy go away. Now, all this is assuming that it's not like an anaphylactic, like uh I mean I go to the hospital when I eat these things because my throat closes up and I sound like daffy duck because you know I can't breathe anymore, and you end up in the hospital, but it's not really a full-on anaphylactic reaction, like my body doesn't shut down. It's just my throat closes up because of the contact with the stuff like my throat. So if it is that, um, you know, you have two basic things you have to figure out.
+
+[8:16] What you know, what are you allergic to? Uh is the actual mango, uh, or is it just this chemical in the skin? And then it does cooking make it go away. I'm not s sure specifically with mango, but it you have a a good shot, but there's nothing you're gonna be able to do that's gonna make uh if it is the mango itself, to make a raw mango uh, you know, not uh not cause a reaction, unfortunately, you know, because uh I'm sure you know a raw mango and a cooked mango, they are not the same thing. Um so Melissa also asks uh whether she knows that uh Nastasha's worked with Cesare Cosello, one of our one of our good friends, uh Italian chef from Tuscany.
+
+[8:53] He's uh used to be the uh the salt he like he's a sultan of salumi now, and he was the what the uh wither of beans or something like that, the the empresario of beans. I mean he has like these Tuscan beans, he has this Salumi, he runs the Salamaria Rossi and uh you know up in the uh upper west side of New York. Uh all-around good guy, and we like him. And so um Melissa was wondering whether Nastasha had any recommendations because she's setting up a tour to Italy, uh, and you're uh uh lucky that uh Cesare has just started uh a culinary tours company of Italy where he takes people from the USA to visit and uh taste and visit not not only just restaurants but shops and vendors. And if I know Cesare and I do, you know, it's gonna be an interesting tour.
+
+[9:33] I mean, the man knows his suppliers over there, and he knows uh, you know, he knows food and he definitely knows uh Tuscany like the like the back of his hand. And uh I don't have his website here, but it's Cesare Cosella, and or you can you guys who are you know write questions into the to the radio show can just write uh Nastasha if you're interested in in contact info for that. Um we have a caller, Dave. Oh, we have a caller? Oh, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[10:01] Hello? Hi. How are you doing? Um I just had a quick question, uh, and I'm gonna make it super short because I'm actually in class as we speak. But uh I had a question about making bitters.
+
+[10:15] Okay. Hello? Hello? Hey, what's your question on bitters? Um I was just curious about the process of making it uh in your home.
+
+[10:28] Like uh where could you find information on it? Um and like where to start really. Right. So if you troll the uh if you troll uh kind of bartender's forums and probably on on uh e-gullet, there's a load of information on bitters. Another excellent source is a little some of the old bitters recipes are in the old kind of alcohol handbooks that are available on Google Books, like the old stuff in the eighteen hundreds, like there's a look at those.
+
+[10:55] Uh yeah. And you can get a lot of those uh yeah. I was just gonna say, is it better to start with uh overproof alcohol like a spiritist or an everclear, or is it better to use something flavorful, or really does it depend on the profile you're looking for? It depends on the profile you're looking for, but most often people start with an overproof product and they get you know a faster and probably a more complete result with that, and then you can water it down when you're done. But most people are starting with with an overproof product.
+
+[11:22] Um, one thing I you know I will say that's interesting, a lot of people ask, because you know we have a lot of new techniques for infusion, and uh, you know, I don't like if you use one of the newer techniques, I don't think you're gonna get the same result as you would get with the older technique. Like I say, not better, not worse, just different. So we'll definitely look into the you know into some of the older some of the older recipes if you're trying to achieve an authentic order result. I mean, I know John Derragon was one of the first people to make Abbott's bitters, but I think Abbott's is now maybe commercially available. I don't know if the maybe the Bitter Truth has it or not.
+
+[11:51] Also cocktail uh cocktail kingdom grapeholms uh website, he has a lot of information on bitters because he has a lot of the old recipe books. But it's very simple to do. It just takes time and sourcing of the herbs. And if you're in New York, there's a couple places uh downtown that have like very good uh herb selections or else online. I don't have the website off the top of my head where to go.
+
+[12:10] But most of that, most everything's available. Okay, great. I'm actually uh in New York, so I guess most stuff is readily available. Um really they say that the the slow time is the best way to do it. There's really no way to push it.
+
+[12:25] Well, it's not the only way, but if you want the actual specific flavors that you would get from those uh older older ways of doing it, then I would do it that way. I mean I haven't experimented so much with straight, like actual like uh using a similar recipe, for instance, to like an Angostura or an Abbott's or a patient should try and get a fast result using one of my new techniques. The new techniques would, I'm sure make a great result, but they would be different. In other words, I don't just don't think it's a matter of better or worse. I think it's just different in what you're shooting at.
+
+[12:51] If you're trying to recreate an old recipe, then I would do it the old way. If you're just interested in your own flavors, then buy you know, by all means, use one of the newer techniques and see whether you come up with something that you like better. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Uh thank you so much.
+
+[13:05] No problem. Good luck with it. Tell us what happens. All right. Uh so let me see what we have going on here.
+
+[13:15] I have another question. Someone uh asks, uh Colin, uh, do you know what is in a Ferron Adrian's product, Fizzy from his texturas line? Now uh Ferrand Adria, you know, the famous chef from Albuli has a whole line of products called texturas, which are kind of new ingredients that are unfortunately called molecular gastronomy uh ingredients uh, you know, by people because they they're you know, a lot of the ingredients that are you know labeled by uh reporters and whatnot as molecular gastronomy, even though anyone that knows me knows I did test that term, Ferrand Adria to test that term, uh Hesson Bluewenthal to test that term, Harold McGee to test that term, Wiley Duflain to test that term, uh pretty sure Grant Aikens to test that term. Uh I can't uh it's very hard to find someone who likes the term molecular gastronomy who who you know, speaks English. Um but that said, uh that's often how they're labeled.
+
+[14:05] So Fizzy is one of these products he has. He sells a methyl cell line, he sells uh he sells uh an alginate, he sells all this stuff. But pizzy is one that's supposed to be a carbonation uh kind of thing, the fizzy, but and it and it it's a solid. Now unfortunately I haven't actually used it. So uh the question is is there's two basic ways that it could could be I since I haven't used it I can't say what it is, but there's two basic things that could could happen.
+
+[14:28] One, it can be similar to a pop rocks. And Pop rocks, uh the way you make pop rocks is you take sugar and you heat it till it's molten, until it's molten sugar, and then you put very high pressure on it, like eight thousand uh eight sorry, eight hundred to a thousand psi uh it's pounds per square inch uh of carbon dioxide into it and basically infuse the the CO2 at that very high pressure. You then allow it to set into a block, you release it, at which point the the candy explodes, leaving you with these little rocks inside of the rocks are high pressure carbon dioxide. When you put it in your mouth you melt the candy and pop that high pressure carbon dioxide comes out and hits your tongue. And that's why uh pop rocks is so much sharper in taste than um than a normal seltzer because it's actually you know quite a high concentration pressure of CO2 there.
+
+[15:15] Anyway, that's pop rocks. So and you can buy neutral pop rocks. Uh there's a company in um in America called Chef Rubber that sells them and there's a bunch of people who make kind of blank pop rocks and then you can just mix them into things. Now the other way to get a fizzy effect is by using an acid and base reaction. This is similar to how kind of alcohol seltzer works or something like that.
+
+[15:35] So you when you're doing that what you're doing is you you know the classic one you could mix uh like when you make a kid when you're doing a a uh a volcano when you for a science project you mix baking soda which is a base and vinegar, which is an acid, and it'll foam up and you're supposed to color it red, of course, so it looks like a volcano. You you add the vinegar pfft it foams all over everything, right? This classic acid base. But you can also use that to make things fizzy in your mouth. And so you you can use citric acid, and then you could use uh a you know, you could use a base like baking soda, you could use a more neutral base, and you you arrange them such that they neutralize each other so you don't have a residual base or acid.
+
+[16:09] Uh so it's possible that they're taking an acid and a base and then mixing them into uh sugar, uh syrup solution, and then turning it into granules, and then you eat it and it and it forms fizz in your mouth. So I'm not exactly sure what the what the fizzy is, but it could be uh either one of those things. It's probably an acid base because a lot of the recipes for fizzy have you grinding them up to use them, and that wouldn't work with uh pop rocks. Um but uh I unfortunately am not sure. Someone has to send me a container of it, and I'll play around and report back.
+
+[16:41] So uh we're gonna go to a commercial break and we'll come back, or not commercial break, a music break, I guess. But please call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues live from Heathrow. I feel fellow. You're getting down.
+
+[17:05] We're gonna have a pump good time. We're gonna have a pump button. We're gonna have a pump cook. We're gonna have a pumpkin. We've gotta take a high.
+
+[17:54] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, call in all your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Now, before I come back to answering any questions, uh, you know, tell you guys a little bit of what we've been doing for the past week, uh two weeks, three weeks. Uh and so uh and apologize a little bit for the fact that we haven't had a lot of posts going up on the bog.
+
+[18:20] Uh part of the reason is is you know, uh Nastash and I were trapped in uh trapped. London's a great place, but we were in London and the hotel had no free Wi-Fi. Not sorry, no Wi-Fi at all. The internet was completely broken. So we had basically no internet access for the past uh three days.
+
+[18:35] It's kind of weird to think how your life changes these days. I mean, you know, it didn't even have the internet when I was in college and uh, you know, not much of the internet, and now you know I'm complaining when I don't have it for for three days. So anyway, so uh since we last spoke uh uh on cooking issues, I've been to Kentucky and I went to a bunch of distilleries in Kentucky, and then uh we just went to London, but it's been kind of an amazing week, so I think I'll just talk a little bit about that. I don't I usually talk about kind of where I've gone or what I'm doing, but might as well since some of it's uh pretty interesting. So uh in in uh in London, I visited uh Nastasha and I visited the Broedale collection.
+
+[19:12] Now the the Brodale collection is the largest uh collection of fruit in in the world. It's in Kent, which is about an hour outside of London by train. And it is like it is nirvana. It is like, you know, if I had to pick the closest place to, you know, heaven on earth in terms of temperate, you know, temperate climate fruits, this is it. It's crazy.
+
+[19:37] Yeah, you first of all, uh everyone there, which is three people, apologized that, you know, that we went on a Monday because there was no one there. And remember, this is now it's prime apple season, and Nastasha and I went there for the apples because I visited with Harold McKee. I had visited uh you know about four years ago, three, four years ago, the uh the Geneva New York apple extension, which is the largest single apple collection of apples in the world. And it was a life changing experience. It was amazing.
+
+[20:03] You know, I got preposterously sick off of apples over the course of two days with McGee wandering through the trees and just eating and spitting, eating and spitting, eating and spitting, you know I you know we became our own cider presses. Anyway, so at that time I also decided I wanted to go to the Brogdale, which is the English collection. Now the English and the and the Americans, we kind of had a you know, like a friendly rivalry back in the 1800s up to the early, early 1900s of kind of who could grow the best apples, you know, who could who who had the because it was kind of a you know the Victorian area Victorian era, a lot of people were developing new fruit varieties was really kind of an important thing to do. And it was really kind of the golden era of fruit and this is when you know the thousands and thousands of varieties really you know became available. And so I really wanted to come over to England where I am right now and um taste some of these English varieties in their native setting and just basically see how the Brodale uh you know works.
+
+[20:57] So anyway, so Nastash and I show up on a Monday the place is deserted. We saw not one soul, not one soul the entire we were there for five hours eating fruit, and we saw not not one person, a tour bus showed up. It took like three pictures of the outside of the orchard, they got back on the tour bus and they walked away. I mean, those guys, these guys missed out on the biggest, the coolest thing they possibly could have gone to because it's not turns out it's not just apples. Like for me, the apples ended up being a side bite because I've already tasted a bajillion jillion apples at the at you know the Geneva Apple Extension in uh upstate New York.
+
+[21:30] Uh and by the way, you know, New York apples are some of the finest apples in the whole world, not to toot our horns, but you know, two toot. Um so you know, we go there and apples aren't the first thing you come to. Pears are. And you know, I've never been such a huge pear person. But I go in there and uh they have something like 400, 500 varieties of pear, uh a lot of which are still on the tree.
+
+[21:50] It's actually past prime picking time for the pears. But on the tree they're still fine, so it's prime eating time for the pears. Uh and Nastasha and I tried maybe, oh, I don't know, maybe uh uh 200 varieties of pears, uh most of which, you know, at the end, we were just we would split the rows in half, and Nastasha would take the right half, I would take the left half, and we would just eat them, and if they were interesting, we would tell each other uh about it. But and we'll post on soon on the blog, but uh suffice it to say that there is a lot more to know about pears than you have ever known if all you've had is a supermarket pear. The range of flavors and textures in pears is astonishing, not surprising, astonishing.
+
+[22:33] We had pears that tasted like rose water, we had uh we had a whole variety of pears that I didn't even learn about, which are pears that are uh only cooking pears. So they they never get soft. You can actually, these are pears that can actually be stored a long, long time over winter and be used into spring, and they're they're hard like rocks, and they they need to be cooked. They don't develop their flavor uh or their proper texture until they're cook until they're cooked. But you know, unlike cooking apples, which are you know have similar characteristics but are basically just tart, like these ones are you know big useless uh until they're uh until they're cooked.
+
+[23:06] And we we tried a couple, unfortunately I can't bring any back to the States to uh cook them to see what happens, but you know, case of Rasra. Uh we had uh just an infinite variety of textures and aromas. And so when you read the old books on uh plumology, which is the fruit study, you know, usually these temperate fruits like apples and pears and stone fruits, you'll uh you know, you'll you'll hear people say how awesome pears are, but you're sitting there as a modern person being like, pears, who cares about pear pink pear? Yeah, I like a pear, but what's the big deal? Uh and then you really get into it and you see what the huge, huge, huge differences are.
+
+[23:41] And all of a sudden, all the old recipes, like the you know, the medieval recipes for cooked pears, like chardwardens, the famous one, like these ones all make kind of more sense and you kind of want to cry them with the actual with the actual pear now. And and you know, four or five years ago when I became infatuated with the idea of all these apples and flavors that we've lost, I didn't even consider the pear. And now I'm just as hyped on pears as as I am on apples. Uh but that's not all this farm has. I mean, this farm is acres and acres and acres where they they basically let you roam free.
+
+[24:10] They have signs to say don't walk off the path and go into the orchards, but I mean, come on, I mean, that's just there, I think, for liability reasons, because they have huge rabbit holes. By the way, I mentioned this place is full of game. There's game everywhere. There's rabbits, there was like pheasant, there was like if like if you w like were allowed to just go on that land and like with a shotgun and a still, you would never have to leave because they have all the game, all the fruit, you could distill, I mean, it's just it's crazy. Anyway, so uh they have a huge plum orchard with uh several hundred varieties of plum.
+
+[24:41] Uh, unfortunately, as I said earlier in the program, I'm allergic to cherries, but you know, maybe Nastasha can go back during cherry season because they have hundreds of varieties of cherry and they specialize mainly in sweet cherries. Kent is interesting as a group, they specialize mainly not in in cider apples, but oh they have cider apples, but they specialize mainly in in not in cider apples. Cider apples are apples that are are toutannic to use by themselves, they're very good for uh for cider. And Kent, the local ciders are actually made with uh sweeter sweet apples, sweet apples and cooking apples, not with tannic cider apples. It's the West Country uh ciders in the UK that are famous for their very, very tannic apples, small tannic apples that they use in their cider.
+
+[25:17] So Kentish cider actually traditionally uses so a lot of people in this country, well in this country where I'm now but where I live in the US, they think that you're topping out if you're using non-civered varieties for uh your cider, but it turns out it's actually fictional in certain places like Kent to use non cider varieties um of apples. So these but these guys have cider varieties, sweet varieties. They also have a huge nut forest with like a billion different kinds of hazelnut. I mean the place is nuts. I mean I wish I could have spent Nash and I have a huge gastrointestinal problems as a result of being there because uh you know we provide uh you know like I say you know if at least w one or two hundred varieties of pear a b you know bazillion apples.
+
+[25:59] Uh we had some plums even though they were well past prime and don't bother with the plum. A plum plastime is uh i is is no fun. Uh and then we went back to their little cider shop and drank ciders. But uh if you were in in England, you know, skip the Tower of London, skip anything and go get on a train, go to Faversham, which is the little town where it is, uh go to the Broadale and uh go there in fruit season and have one of the most miraculous fruit experiences you are uh ever gonna have in your entire life. A completely uh uh life game uh operation there.
+
+[26:34] Hey Dave, we have a caller. Hello, is that you Jen? We have a caller? Hey Car, you're on the air. Great.
+
+[26:39] My name's Corbin. I'm from San Diego. And I had a question about reproducing a barbecue pulled pork using sous vide. There are a couple things I like about barbecue pulled pork. One is the smoky flavor.
+
+[26:53] The other is like the uh a nice crust of bark that you get on the outside. And I know sous vide is a good way to control the temperature and make it nice and tender, but how can I get the smoke and the bark after or before using sous vide. Yeah it's tough. There's a couple of problems. One is that when you use sous vide, at least with uh the lower temperatures that are associated with Sous vide, you're not gonna get the same texture.
+
+[27:18] So if you I don't know if you've done it before but when you do like a short rib when you're cooking sous vide um you'll notice that the connective tissue gets soft but it doesn't render out right so the fibers never get kind of stringy the way that they get in a traditional uh in a traditional braise. So in traditional braise or a barbecue the the connective tissue is going to melt out and the fibers in the meat are going to basically going to be lubricated by that connective tissue. That's why the meat without connective tissue never tastes good done barbecue right so when you're doing it in sous vide the stuff turns soft but it doesn't render out and that's why one of the interesting things about sous geed like short rib for instance is that you can slice it unlike normal thing which is going to break apart because the fibers are totally broken apart. So the texture is um a little bit a little bit different. Um and so it's not I'm think going to pull the same way that uh texture wise that a that uh normal barbecue I mean I don't know what you're making I assume pork right pulled pork is gonna it's gonna work.
+
+[28:15] The other thing is is that you s that the the outside crust, I mean you but you one way you could do it I mean the smoke is going to be tough. You need smoke, right? And I'm assuming that you know there are some high quality smoke applications that you can put on uh or you could do a cold smoke kind of a situation but it doesn't taste quite the same. Like something that's smoked doesn't taste the same as something that has the smoke flavor from barbecuing it from being bar you know from being made into barbecue. They don't to me they don't taste quite the same although I don't know the chemistry of why that's the case.
+
+[28:46] But um you could apply a smoke. There are some very high quality smoke products that taste a whole hell of a lot better than liquid smoke, but it's still people don't like to do it because you're basically applying a smoked flavor to something rather than smoking it naturally. But you could you could like cold smoke or uh even uh hot smoke after the Sous V step or after the low temp step but you're still gonna need if you want that that that surface on the outside you're gonna need to apply some dry heat to it to actually get some of the moisture out of it. Now you can apply that with a higher uh higher temperature than you would do when you're making normal barbecue and that would allow you to keep the inside still um you know have the advantage of the low temp but uh you know we're having the outside dry out a little bit but it's gonna be totally different because then it to obtain that same surface that you would get you want to have a kind of a the browning happen for a long time over a low temp and it's not going to provide the same result because in order to keep the low temperature result on the inside you're gonna need to put it like in a five hundred degree uh like grill or oven or something that to really get the outside you know to crisp up on you and and get it to firm up without overdoing the inside but it's not gonna be exactly the same result. It would still be delicious, right?
+
+[29:56] But I don't think it's gonna be the same result. Is that that makes sense or no? Yeah, yeah. So I might get a di a a different product, but I could still uh get something that's delicious and um maybe approximates barbecue. Yeah that's uh yeah I mean it's gonna be totally different but yeah low temp cook and you can you can either put something smoking in the bag or you can smoke it a little bit afterwards or get a real like put some chips or something to make your grill real smoky get your grill hot as hell put it in there you know not touching the fire maybe but like a away from the hot as hell and then crisp up the outside and uh and get some smoke flavor in it that way and you can make a delicious product but I don't think it's gonna be the the same as like regular barbecue.
+
+[30:39] Delicious but different you know what I mean? Yeah yeah great yeah so I I called a couple of weeks ago and I had some questions about I bought a used lab circulator so I'm gonna I'm gonna try it out. I got some good advice last time and I think I got some good advice this time so I'll let you know how it goes. Yeah let us know how it goes and uh hopefully it works out for you. I think it will great thank you.
+
+[31:00] All right thanks for all right we're gonna go to our third second commercial break uh call in your questions to 718 uh 4972128 that's 718 4972128 cooking issues live from Heathrow Airport You know what? We're not here, groove like this. Oh, yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[31:49] Back way up young man. It's thing. Look at you. Never got a groove like this. No.
+
+[32:04] No. Grip. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. It's Dave Arnold with Cooking Issues. Uh, calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:22] That's 718-497-2128 on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live today from Houston Airport in London, where Nastasha the Hammer and I are waiting to get back to New York City. So we have a couple of more questions here. One is uh Colin writes in that he's interested in buying quinine sulfate. Uh and he says he's having some problems getting quinine sulfate. Now, quinine uh is the product in tonic water that gives it its characteristic bitterness.
+
+[32:52] It's also uh what is uh I mean the reason it was there originally is quinine, which comes from a bark, by the way. Uh Kinshona, I think it's how it's pronounced, so I can never remember. Uh this this quinine uh is an anti-malarial, right? Which is why uh, you know, you take it if you're gonna go to India, if you're a British, if you're a British officer in the uh 1800s, you don't want to get a malaria, you you drink your quinine. They eventually, you know, made this tonic out of it and they mix it with gin, and there you have it.
+
+[33:19] Now, uh, the amount of quinine in and quinine also has other cool properties like it, it's uh it's uh phosphorescent. So in clubs, if you go to a club and a black light hits it, it lights up. It's kinda cool. Anyway, so uh quinine is in the tonic water, although that is the characteristic flavor, the bitterness flavor of it. Quinine is not there in enough of a quantity to stop you from getting malaria.
+
+[33:42] So if you're you know, don't think you're gonna, you know, cure your malaria with tonic water, right? In fact, uh the doses that you need for uh for for medicinal reasons are much higher, I think at least two times higher. Um the in the in the way that we normally put it into a drink is by using a uh derivative of salt of quinine quinine sulfate, right? And you can buy this stuff, but you have to be incredibly careful when you buy it because uh an overdose of quinine is uh you know a b a bad thing. It causes a disease known as chincotism, it's it's no good.
+
+[34:12] You have to be careful. Uh until recently you could just go in and buy it uh at a pharmacy because people will take it for leg cramps, but now it's considered a prescription medication. So there's two ways you can do it. You can get a doctor friend to write your prescription for quinine, uh you know, because you say, Oh, I have terrible leg cramps, and then they'll prescribe you some quinine. You can get quinine and do it that way.
+
+[34:32] Or I mean I don't rec I don't uh that may or may not be fraud, in which case I don't recommend it. Uh but the uh you know the other way is you go to a lab supply house and you buy uh quinine sulfate uh and you have to buy the USP grade, which is basically a pharmaceutical made food uh considered okay for consumption, and you buy a uh you know, you buy a little little vial of it. The stuff I bought, I bought from a company called Spectrum Chemical, and I bought their USP grade of quinine sulfate. And but you have to be extremely careful with it. Quinine sulfate, you're gonna want to be using on the order of well, the the legal limit for tonic water is less than eighty three parts per million, which is way more bitter than you actually want it to be so you want the the best way to use uh quinine is first of all don't let other people handle it you know you know keep it safe so people don't just you know use it like they would sugar or creamer or acid or something like that and then um make a solution of uh quinine in water or in alcohol is actually better that you keep there and then make use it as kind of a bittering agent but you gotta you want to be careful not just for a safety reason but also quinine can become uh it'll go from being not bitter enough to being very much too bitter extremely bitter uh with very small additions because the taste at least in my mind seems to be cumulative so you know a little bit of tonic water a little bit of quinine okay a little more okay a little more you know okay and another the next shot and you're like boom it's it's ruined it's too bitter.
+
+[35:59] Um so uh I would just say uh you know be careful with it but you can get it it's not cheap. I paid eighty dollars for you know a little vial of it uh but that vial has lasted me years because it takes such a small amount of the quinine to uh to to bitter up your your tonic water and then of course you you know that for the rest of your quinine work for your tonic you're either going to want to use an acid mix which which lime acid to mimic the flavor of limes which I recommend would be uh two parts of citric acid which is the um which is the acid from lemons one part malic acid which is the acid from limes and then a pinch of succinic now succinic is really going to give you the characteristic authentic lime taste uh and that one you can only get from chemical supply houses like spectrum again is where I got mine USP but you can do a fairly good but don't you again be careful with that one because it's really nasty if you add too much. But um the citric and malic acid you can get from a homebrew supply shop. It's a really good way to do it. Otherwise, you can just make your tonic water uh with the clarified lime juice, uh, which you know we have uh on our blogs.
+
+[37:00] Go to ClickingIssues.com and look up uh clarification. We have a way to clarify lime juice, and you can make a tonic water with that. And that is delicious carbonated with uh gin. Uh Colin also asks um about uh he just got a big block of peat uh and he's one you know, peat as you know most of you might know. Uh they uh roast uh malt with uh peat when they're gonna do uh you know, scotch is more or less peaty, depending on which scotch is uh and it's that you have the characteristic flavor.
+
+[37:28] So he wants to use peat, maybe uh distill peat or get uh some essential oils out of it. Um but my impression is that you don't want to use the peat directly, and that the peat is good for making peat flavor when it's being burned. So I would uh I would definitely use the peat. Uh you can smoke something with uh peat, throw some peat on the on the grill, and then uh and then let the tr flavor transfer over to your food from from roasting uh from uh you know, using the peat to to burn it. I've never actually used it, but it's something I would definitely definitely love to do.
+
+[38:02] I'm kind of like secretly fascinated with peat and also with uh bog mummies. I'm I'm with like you know, bogs, you know, what I like to pee is you go, you cut peat with bug, and there's very acidic uh conditions because you're breaking down stagnant moss in there and and it releases chemicals and acidity down there that basically you know well can uh you know, so human beings back in the days, you know, druid days and whatnot, that you know you would have these people who one reason another human sacrifice execution, whatever, killed and thrown into these bogs, and they're preserved for thousands of years very well. Um so I'm kind of have a secret fascination, I guess not so secret anymore, with uh bog bodies. But another interesting thing about pogs that uh that I'm fascinated with is the idea of bog butter. So you'll have these strange fat deposits in bogs uh called bog butter.
+
+[38:49] And then I I believe, although I can't verify this, that some people would actually put uh fat into bogs to preserve them, and then you could use them like a long, long, long, long, long, long time there. So I'd always find some ancient stash of bog butter and then um and then cook with it, but you know, uh I don't think that's uh that's gonna happen. But speaking of things that I've always wanted to have happen, and just did happen, is uh, you know, in in the US, it's very difficult to get game birds to eat unless you are a hunter because you cannot hunt meat in this commercially in the United States. So uh so anyway, so it's very difficult to get birds like woodcock, we have to get it shipped from Scotland to cost an arm and leg, uh, grouse, uh did I say grouse? No, yeah, grouse, woodcock, teal, which is kind of like a tiny duck, wigeon, which is kind of another kind of small duck, uh, knife all these birds, these great birds that you know I've read about my whole life, these great game birds, and I've never had them before.
+
+[39:47] And went uh two nights in a row to a restaurant here in London called Hicks. And the first night they had grouse on the menu, which I instantly ordered, I got the last one. I I almost had to beat the crap out of someone else so that I can make sure that I got this l last grouse because I wasn't gonna leave London without having it. And then by chance, and delicious by the way, like game bean, uh unlike any other bird I had ever had. Like everyone's says, you know, well, grouse is just different.
+
+[40:11] And I was like, well, it is, you know what I mean? Uh and menu says, you know, make and cane shot if you eat it and whatnot. And the next day we went back randomly, and the person apologized for, you know, making us go to the same restaurant twice in a row, but their menu was almost completely changed. And I just I know it must have hit a really good menu change. And they had a game feast, a game bird feast with woodcock, teal, wigeon, and snipe.
+
+[40:29] And I w uh I just went I went I went crazy. First of all, woodcock, you know, the what you know the what they say about woodcock, and it's one of these things with a really long beak, is that it takes off and as it takes off, it poops out everything that's in its intestine. So it's not basically eviscerated. All the guts are still on the inside of the woodcock and they cook it and and they serve it to you and it's got this a long beak and the head's still on the whole thing's basically entirely whole. And uh and all four birds were let's just put it this way, they're a little bit bloody.
+
+[41:01] I w I did spit some shot out onto the plate they're in the middle and this gives you even an idea of what the meal is like. So uh so anyway, so I'm there with uh these you know two friends of mine from uh 69 Coba Clow, Mimi and and Stuart, Nastasha, they're there and uh Mimi's actually I guess not for C S and Coba Clow she works with the Havana Club. We can't buy in the US. There's a fake Havana Club in the U.S. It's not really the real one a real Hannon Club can't come to the US because we're on Bargain of Cuba.
+
+[41:26] Anyway, I'm sitting there and uh I'm eating these birds like literally there's blood from the birds all like all over my hands, not looking over I have like a piece of heart from the woodcock like stuck on my knuckle. You know that I'm looking across the table and I'm sure I have blood all over my face from the and everyone's completely horrified. But and I said look, you know I I'm sorry uh I'm sorry but I've never had the it had a chance to eat these birds before and you know you really need to pick them up and it's really not like a neat and danger and I apologize for you know making such a mess of it but you know that's kind of that's what it is. I think I'm done. And I apologize to everyone for this horrific carnage scene.
+
+[42:07] I'm sure the entire restaurant was repulsed. Uh and and as the guy play say play plate away, he's like, oh so how was the head? And this is after I just apologize for making me this. And I was like, well what do you mean? He's like, well you're supposed to split the head of the woodcock open and suck the brains out.
+
+[42:23] So then after all that I sit there and I shove the knife through the head of the woodcock and split it in half and then uh suck the brains out. So I think that was kind of the last nail in the the coffin of decency uh for the heat. But it was a chance um that uh uh you know that I've never had before but I was that meal and I'll leave you with this that meal I had uh right after Nastasha and I had just eaten uh you know several hundreds of varieties of fruit uh so it was it's uh it was an a gastrointestinal extravaganza that day. Let's just say I had uh we had you know we're about three quarters full up with uh with uh mangled fruit parts and then we stuffed it down with yeah with with uh with our game birds and then of course I had to have dessert because it's me uh and since I was in England and going full traditional I had of course the famous pudding spot dick and this has been Cooking Issues live from Heathrow London come back to uh come back to us to the next week when we'll be back in New York City um don't know where Spoiled to be
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+[0:16] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to be my baby. You are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, where you phone in with all of your cooking related questions.
+
+[0:37] I'm here today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, and we are back in the United States finally, right? We're we're done with we're done with the majority of our travels. We're good now? I think so. Yeah, okay, good.
+
+[0:46] Alright. So call in all your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And uh today's show is brought to you by 360 Cookware, uh, which it's new, I guess I'm not familiar with it. Are you familiar with it?
+
+[1:01] No. Nastasha? No. So 360 Cookware is a uh top of the line stainless steel cookware that is made in America in the greenest cookware manufacturing facility in the country. It can be used to make all of your favorite recipes, but it also gives the option to cook using vapor technology.
+
+[1:14] What does that mean? I've no idea. Which creates a seal that surrounds the food with intense heat, locking in vitamins, moisture, and flavor without added oil, fat, or excess water. Visit our website at 360cookware.com for more information. Uh what do they think that means, vapor?
+
+[1:27] You think it means they're steaming it? That's what it sounds like. Sounds like it's steaming it. When I hear vapor technology and cooking in general, I think steam. Steam, right?
+
+[1:37] Yeah. So what they're saying is that they're steaming it. We have a collar. Oh, we have a collar? Alright.
+
+[1:41] So let's take a let's take the caller and then hopefully someday we'll figure out what 360 vapor technology is. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hey, is that me? Hey. Outstanding.
+
+[1:50] Um, so I had a question for you actually about um Sue V cooking. Okay. And particularly the vacuum packing. Mm-hmm. So uh Thomas Keller, fairly famously is claims that uh the home units, the food savers and things like this manage to remove moisture.
+
+[2:08] Um and I'm trying to figure out how that's possible compared to one of the very high end, you know, eight and ten thousand dollar restaurant systems. Right. Okay. Well, you can by the way, at home you can get uh a like a commercial grade one now for I think about fifteen hundred bucks, like a really really, really nice one. It's small, it's not as big as the commercial one.
+
+[2:27] So you don't have to go spend quite as much money. But I think what he's referring to is uh you know, for those of you out there that have a food saver, right, which is the kind of the normal one. There's other manufacturers now, but the kind of the one that's been around the longest is the food saver. When it's sucking a vacuum, you have to use specialized vacuum bags that have little um crisscross lines in them, right? Right.
+
+[2:47] And that's is this what you have? You have the food saver? Yeah. Yeah. And so the the problem with those bags is is that the way that it sucks vacuum is by using those little uh lines as straws and literally sucking the vacuum out of the out of the out of the bag.
+
+[3:00] The problem is is that um basically the air is constantly coming out and air pressure is pushing on the bag, which forces liquid into those little straws. So if you let it run, right, it sucks the the liquid, literally sucks the liquid out of the bag like it's a straw. And that's probably what he's referring to. I don't think he's referring to it drying something out, right? Now that doesn't happen in uh commercial vacuum machine because, right, in a commercial vacuum machine, the bag is inside of a chamber and the whole chamber is evacuated.
+
+[3:31] So there's not extra pressure pushing on the outside of the bag while you're sucking the vacuum on the inside. So the liquids tend to stay in the bag. I mean, sometimes you can boil them because as you put a vacuum on something, you lower the temperature at which it boils, it can boil out. But if you don't boil it, the liquids are going to stay in the bag because the there's no air pressure on the bag while you're sucking the vacuum. And that's kind of the key, aside from the fact that uh uh the food saver's vacuum pump isn't nearly as strong as a regular vacuum, you know, real commercial vacuum pump.
+
+[3:59] That's the fundamental difference, and that's why a chamber machine is so useful as compared to a machine that just sucks the vacuum uh on the bag itself. Does that make makes sense? It does. Is there is there a way that you can sort of eyeball it and make sure that you can use something like this? I d yeah, I just bought one of these um uh um 2D pros from uh from poly science.
+
+[4:25] Um so I'm sort of tapped out as far as equipment experience for a little while. So um Yeah, here's the good news, right? So uh I I have a f had a food saver, it broke, but I almost always used it to seal potato chip bags, or if you're gonna uh save something for a long time in the freezer, it's really good. Um if you have to use a food saver to bag sauces, a lot of people will freeze the sauces first and then put them in as frozen so that it won't get sucked up. But uh, to me, that's kind of a pain in the pain in the rear.
+
+[4:51] I tend to do most of my work just using Ziploc bags. Um like m a lot of things, like let's say you're gonna work with fish, right? If you're gonna work with fish, you don't really want to suck a uh hard vacuum on it because it tends to hurt the texture of the fish, right? Or it or even chicken, if you suck a hard vacuum on a chicken, it tends to make it taste more like a canned chicken when it's cooked for some reason. I don't really know the reason why.
+
+[5:12] It's just test after test we've seen this, we've seen this happening. So uh 90% of the time when I'm cooking at home, actually basically 100%, unless I'm doing eggs, I put my stuff in Ziploc bags, and it's extremely easy to learn the technique to pack very effectively in a Ziploc. There's there's pictures on on cookingissues.com. But briefly what you do is is you you seal the entire bag, you put some liquid in, like usually oil or butter or whatever, or or a sauce if you're doing something like that. You seal the bag and you leave just you put your finger in the top where it's not sealed.
+
+[5:43] One section isn't sealed, the rest is sealed, and then you you uh um put the bag underwater. As you put the bag underwater, the water displaces the air, and right before the bag sinks underneath the liquid entirely, you snip the last little bit closed, you press it closed, and it works great. I mean, I wouldn't use it on very, very, very high temps because though those Ziploc bags aren't meant to get all the way to the boil, but for ninety percent of what you're doing or more, it's a really good technique and doesn't require any sort of uh equipment and and it handles sauces very, very well. So I I moved quite a long time ago to that kind of a technique at home instead of using uh instead of using the food saver, which makes an excellent potato chip sealer, by the way. Um I mean I don't know if that's another thing.
+
+[6:23] If you have the the the poly science, here's one little um one little note I'll give you because uh I mean we if you're at home you might not have this problem, but you know, we've been using the new circulator at the at the school at the French culinary for quite a while, and under the use of a bunch of people who aren't necessarily trained to use it, one of the main problems we've had with the new unit is people have set the offset. Okay, so like if you notice on the new circulator, if you press the button you can change between Fahrenheit and Celsius. There's a i but the next thing after that is something called the offset. And I've had a bunch of chefs turn the offset like two and three degrees because they thought they were setting the temperature, and then the circulator is off by two or three degrees. And it's not that there's anything wrong with the circulator.
+
+[7:05] It's just that people have uh it's it's too easy for them to to mess with the offset. So if anyone plays around with your circulator, make sure they put the offset back uh to zero. The best thing to do is to is to put your new circulator into an ice water bath, with lots of ice and water. Let it like set it to like minus 10 Celsius or something like that, just so that it doesn't want to heat the bath. Let it run for like 10 minutes, and then you can see exactly how far off of zero is.
+
+[7:32] They're within a half a degree always. But you can set the offset then down or up to exactly calibrate it to zero, and then it'll be dead, dead perfect forever as long as no one messes with the offset. Is this is this helpful at all or no? Definitely very much so. Alright, well, listen, uh, thank thanks for calling and uh you know uh call back any any time if you want more advice on on uh on bagging.
+
+[7:54] We love we love bagging, right, Nastasha? We do, even I can do it. All right, thanks so much. Thanks for that, guys. Okay.
+
+[8:00] Um, so we have uh another question in and uh it's from Michael Griffiths who was actually at the Harold McGee lecture series last week, and uh I was a horribly or two weeks ago, I was horribly, horribly, horribly sick. Like I don't know, I've never kind of been It's unlike you. I was I mean uh you know chills, like a horrible, like uh let me put it this way uh without getting too graphic, right? Uh it turns out that if you uh expel everything out of your body for like days and days without being able to take anything in, that you lose some of your uh you lose the enzymes, you you lose the uh you know the enzymes that allow you to to digest lactose, right? So uh, you know, I now know if very temporarily I know what it's like to be lactose intolerant.
+
+[8:50] It sucks. Yeah. Yeah, it really sucks. I'll never make fun of someone for it again because it really sucks, you know? Um anywho, so I was very sick, I wasn't at my best during the class.
+
+[8:59] In fact, I had to leave uh a couple hours early just because you know the the shaking sh uh shaking and chills and the you know it was a little much with the the they had a space heater fired directly underneath me and had me wrapped in like three three sets of coats so that I my body just wasn't regulating temperature. It was just a nightmare. Uh but unfortunately I didn't get to set up the rotary evaporator and uh Michael really wanted to see the rotary evaporator and it didn't get set up because I wasn't there and uh there was a seal missing and so it was never able to get uh work properly. And I I apologize, Michael. If you're ever in the in the neighborhood, I owe you a rotovap demo, right, Nastasha?
+
+[9:33] Right, yeah, yeah. Anyway, no, not your fault. I mean, like I wasn't there, I wasn't available. But um we'll show you how to fire up the rotovap. It's it's one of those things where if you if you're not familiar with every single part of the rotary evaporator, and for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about, rotary evaporator is a piece of laboratory equipment that's a vacuum stool.
+
+[9:49] We're actually demoing one tomorrow on the Martha Stewart show. Yes. Which we'll I'll talk more about that later. Um but uh uh you need to know what every single part does, and if it if you're just kind of remembering instead of like knowing intimately every part, it's almost impossible to set up properly. But I'll I'll do it for you if you're ever in the neighborhood.
+
+[10:06] And I happen to be in the neighborhood and firing up the rotor vap at the same time. But he has an actual question, uh two actually. One is about parsnips. So uh he juices champion uh parsnips in the champion uh juicer. The champion juicer for those of you that don't know, it uh it's a great little juicer.
+
+[10:21] It doesn't do citrus, it doesn't do wheatgrass, but it's basically got these little teeth that spin and it just m you know m mashes the juice all the heck, mashes fruit or whatever vegetables all the heck, and then presses the juice through a screen and then the the pulp, which is fairly dry, you can run it again if it's not comes out the front. I love the champion. We juice apples all day long and that thing with juice, carrots and that thing, and you know, ginger, horseradish, it'll juice most anything. Um so uh he's juicing parsnips in it, and he's taking the juice and he's heating it, and then it's all of a sudden thickening up. And I'm guaranteeing, I'm not guaranteeing, I don't know, but my guess is that the reason it's sticking up is that parsnips actually contain a good bit of starch in them.
+
+[11:00] And so if you're taking the juice and heating it, you're probably functionalizing the starch. This is my guess, and it's thickening up just like uh just like a starch wood. That I mean that's just my guess. That's why you know the st you know, parsnips contain a lot of starch, and to prove it, like if you store them for a long time, they get sweeter because the starch is being converted to sugar. So if you have a parsnip that's not very sweet, it's gonna have a proportionally higher amount of starch in it.
+
+[11:22] And I guess depending on how you're juicing it or how much the thing is being broken up by the juicer, you're gonna get more or less of that starch in the juice. I don't know if you're adding the pulp back to it either to to add that, but there's definitely gonna be some free starch in there that is you know not functionalized until it's been heated and boiled and then it's it's gonna thicken up. This is my guess. Uh another question, and we'll take this before we go off into into break, is he has a question about using agar and marshmallows. Um so a lot of people actually are interested.
+
+[11:50] And the agar, by the way, is for those of you that don't know, uh, is my favorite hydrocolloid, my favorite kind of gelling agent. I love agar because it's easily available, it's you know completely natural, been used for like a bazillion years, and it's extremely versatile. I love it. Uh in fact, we're teaching a class where I'm gonna do a whole bunch of agar tricks this Thursday and Friday. We're doing hydrocolloids at the at the FCI.
+
+[12:11] Uh so um anyway, so the holy grail of for a lot of people are vegetarian marshmallows, and um, and so typically the marshmallow will be made with uh gelatin or mixture of gelatin and egg white to provide the foaming and the gelatin sets, and that provides the structure for the marshmallow. And so his question is is uh substituting agar instead of gelatin. And I would not uh do that. I would not use agar agar. Um agar is very porous and uh tends to have a lot of syneresis, a lot of a lot of weeping in it.
+
+[12:43] Typically, people use uh mixtures of carrageenin, which is a similar gelling agent, and uh and locust bean gum, which provide so when you take carrageenin, kappa carrageen, and there's a bunch of different kinds. When you take kappa caragenin, which is very brittle, right, but also, you know, is forms a good structure, and then you mix it with locust bean gum, another, you know, uh classic, you know, all natural, it's from a seed. Uh, and and you mix that the locust bean gum softens the carrageenin and makes it somewhat gelatin-like. And so there's very specific mixtures of um of uh uh kappa carrageenin and possibly other types of carrageenin and locust bean gum that are manufactured specifically to make uh marshmallows. Um and they're made by the C P.
+
+[13:28] Kelco Corporation, that's C P K-E-L-C-O, and uh one that they make specifically for marshmallows is genutine uh G-E-N-U-T-I-N-E, genutine X9303, and I believe it's available through Le Sanctuary's website or Las Sanctuary's website out in California. And if not, you could contact CP Celco directly and find a source for it. But that is a special carrageenan mix that's made to function just like gelatin in a marshmallow, and it should whip up without uh any problems. If you go into the hydrocolloid primer section of the uh of our blog, Cooking Issues. There's a little discussion that people have done on vegetarian marshmallows that might also be of help.
+
+[14:05] Anyway, hope this was helpful. We'll go out to the first commercial break. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issue. We're gonna have a bunk good time.
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+[14:42] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We gotta take you high. We gotta take the high brother.
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+[15:18] Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by a few courses. And then I wanna wave me and let's go into that with us. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Take us higher.
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+[16:28] You are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're gonna be here for another segment or so, so you still have time to call. Okay.
+
+[16:44] So uh here's a question. Uh a couple of weeks ago I waxed rhapsodic apparently about the wonders of fresh tofu. Uh and uh Derek has made it himself but encountered two big problems. When he's heating the ground soybeans to make soy milk, the mixture foams up an absurd amount, uh, and containing the mess was problematic. You know, I too have this problem uh at home, absurd messes, but for many, many reasons, not just for making tofu.
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+[17:08] Uh cooking in small batches made it more manageable but also more time consuming. Any tricks for controlling the foaming. All right, well, uh I think I said mentioned this before, the book to get on tofu is uh the book of tofu uh by William uh Shirtliff and Akiko uh I I I can't pronounce her name very properly, but uh Ayagi. How do you pronounce that? I don't know, I'm terrible at pronunciation, I'm just such a jerk, such a moron.
+
+[17:31] Anyway, I happen to have it in front of me because I was rereading it and trying to figure out all your problems. I think I found out your problem. Um when you're making here's the process of tofu for those of you that don't that don't know making tofu, you need to go m first of all, go make your own tofu. If you want like a highly, highly technical tofu source, actually, Nathan Mirvold's book, when it's coming out, Nathan Miravold and Chris Young, the the Uber Tech Book that's coming out uh very soon, like the tech book to end all tech books, has a huge section on tofu and also on uh tofu like curds from other things like from peanuts, uh I believe from edamame and from from any of these things. So that's good, like when that comes out, that's gonna be the revolutionary tofu tofu curd to end all tofu curd like books, I think.
+
+[18:14] But uh in the meantime, I will I will tell you this. So, what you do is you take soybeans, right? You know, hopefully relatively good quality soybeans that aren't too too old, you want to soak them for eight to ten hours, you break them open, you look at the inside to verify that they've soaked through but haven't over soaked, right? Then you you I usually use about a cup and a half, which is what uh you know, the shirt lift book recommends. Then uh you're going to blend those with with very hot water in a blender, right?
+
+[18:42] Then you're going to add that to more water and heat it, right, until it just gets to the boil. You're not going to boil it with all the pulp in it. Then you're going to uh pour out that you know, you're gonna get a sack like a cloth. Then you're gonna pour the that entire mix, it's got the it's got the you know the pulp and the and the soy milk into a sack and press it out, then you're gonna remoisten the you know the stuff that's left over, which is called okara, that's like the hulls and the solids, right? Remix that with some more hot water, bring her up to a boil, and then and then pour it, pour it back out again to get the the the soy milk out.
+
+[19:16] And then you boil the milk uh to kill, you know, kill all the the enzymes in it to prevent you from uh from using all the all the protein. If you try and boil it with the with the actual okara in it with the pulp in it I think you're gonna have horrible boiling mess problems you're probably gonna get uh okara you know boiled and stuck onto the bottom of your pot it's gonna be a king hell mess. So uh what I typically do is a little bit different from what they do in the because in the book they're very concerned about energy consumption which is smart because this guy is very very concerned about all this kind of stuff. But in general I have about seven and a half cups of water that you bring uh you know you keep it hot it's basically almost at the boil and then you have uh another pot with uh another like eight cups of water a boiling in it and it's just gonna sit there and boil and so what you'll do is you'll take uh you'll take like a half of the soybeans that you're gonna have soaked if you start with a cup and a half it'll increase slightly after it soaks and you blend that with two cups of water out of the out of the boiling water pot blend the hell out of it hopefully in a vita prep then pour it into the pot with seven and a half cups then blend another batch of uh soybeans with two cups water pour pour it in take like a half cup of that boiling water rinse out your blender pour it in right bring that whole thing to uh a boil then drain it off press out the okara mix another three cups of the boiling water that you have left over with the okara to get the rest out squeeze it again and then you have about a cup left over to use with your solidifier. Now he also had problems he was using nigari nigari is the traditional Japanese solidifier that's used and it's basically a derivative of seawater.
+
+[20:48] It's not the the sodium part they'll take the sodium chloride off off the seawater and then all the other calcium and magnesium salts that are left over in it you make the the nigari out of and you can buy Nigari a bunch of different ways you can buy it as a liquid, you can buy it as a solid. I have to say this, I have not had that good luck with uh Nigari myself. Um I I would say you'd probably I don't know what you're using, but in our in the batch size that I do, which starts with a cup and a half of soybeans and ends up with about 15 um you know, fifty fifteen cups of water added to it. Um we end up I they recommend using like two and a half uh to four teaspoons of the Nigari, depending on whether you're using the solid or or the liquid. But I use Epsom salts, which I really like, even though apparently I'm a Philistine jerk, like moron for liking Epsom salts, but you can just go into Dwayne Reed or CVS or whatever, buy Epsom salts, don't use too much of it because it's a laxative.
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+[21:37] I use about two teaspoons of Epsom salts. Epsom salt is uh magnesium sulfate, it's awesome stuff. You can also use calcium chloride, which all of you hydrocolloid fans probably have sitting around, even though it tastes horrible, it's not going to be that noticeable in the in the final batch. I would use also about two teaspoons of that or two teaspoons of magnesium chloride, which isn't going to taste nearly as bad as the calcium chloride. Um and you can use any one of those things.
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+[22:00] I've really had no luck using acid to make it, but other people, other people have. And you're gonna want to put it in in several stages. You stir some in and then you pour some over the top and let it sit, and it takes minutes for the curd to form. Another thing you're gonna want to do is when you're getting the curds, you you're gonna want to press down on them and get the way out. Don't try to agitate it too much, or you're gonna break the curds up into tiny things and it's gonna be a nightmare and all hell's gonna break loose.
+
+[22:21] Uh so anyway, so I hope that is that sound helpful or does that sound like I have a question. Okay. My mom buys tofu, my dad won't eat it because he's like a meat and potatoes kind of guy. So what's the best recipe you have with tofu? Well, that's interesting.
+
+[22:34] When I make my own tofu, I tend to just want to eat it because you put a lot of work into it and it's delicious. I I I hate the idea of taking tofu and making it into some fake other crap. You know what I mean? The problem with most tofu that you buy, unless you're going to a like a like a high quality tofu shop where they're making their tofu every day, is that the tofu's been soaked in uh so much water, it's sitting there in water that all of the actual flavor of the soybean has been leached out of it and it's basically worthless. You know, when you're making your own tofu, you have I mean I'm uh I don't I'm not gonna offend anyone here.
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+[23:06] I mean I don't mean it's worthless. You know what I mean? It's just it's not for me. Like I never use it. I never buy it.
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+[23:09] Like I like making tofu and using it, but I never buy it. When you make it yourself, you can you can use like you can keep it like a cloud tofu, which is not pressed at all, which is amazing in soups. A lot of Korean soups uh done that way, it's delicious, you know what I mean? You can make uh a very soft tofu, you can make a firmer tofu, you can mix stuff into the tofu and set it. But for me, the main key is that you haven't completely gotten rid of all the the original whey that's in there, and there's no extra added flavorless water that's leached out what flavor it has.
+
+[23:40] Because tofu has a really delicate, amazing flavor when it's used when it's when it's made fresh and it's used just as is. And I literally like I can't I I never have enough to use in recipes because I'm always just you know cutting it and then eating it with like a an amazing dipping sauce. But you know, if you're gonna buy tofu, you know, I'll fry the hell out of it. That's gonna help. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:00] That's gonna help, you know. I don't know. Like uh let's see if you can make it. Yeah, making tofu is amazing and and it shows you it shows you kind of what you can do. I mean, it's really it I just don't I just don't much like the tofu that you buy in the store.
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+[24:12] Like I just can't I mean I can eat it when it's you know chopped up and put into things, but I'm never like, well, you know, store bought tofu, that's amazing. We can't wait to have another thing of uh store bought tofu. You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[24:25] So uh Dan from Seattle writes in and says, Hello, I'm a fairly serious amateur cook. After enough media horror stories, I've started grinding my own meat uh essentially all the time for any recipe that calls for ground beef, you have uh you have great uh, you know, sticktuitiveness and patience, because that's kind of a pain in the butt to haul out your meat grinder every time you're gonna make meat. I have one problem on a relatively frequent basis. I get small bone chips even after very thorough trimming. Is there any systematic way to avoid this?
+
+[24:44] Okay. Uh first of all, notes on notes on meat. Uh when you're grinding your own meat, obviously you want to make sure that the cutters are sharp. I don't know whether you're using a hand grinder or the kitchen aid attachment, right? But you want to make sure the cutters stay sharp, otherwise you're going to be pasting out and uh and hurting, you know, basic basically pasting out the fat and overheating it when it's going in.
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+[25:08] Another thing is you're gonna want to cut any kind of uh sinew or anything you don't want to eat out in general because it's not going to be pleasant, and sometimes it can get stuck in the grinder as it goes through. So that's that's also bad. Third, when you're grinding meat, you're going to want to, and I haven't answered your question yet, I realize that. Third, when you're grinding uh meat, you're gonna want to almost par freeze it, right? So that uh so that the t the texture stays good when it freezes through.
+
+[25:32] You want to like not frozen solid, but basically where it just starts to feel stiff and almost got a little bit of a crunch on the outside where it starts to freeze, don't freeze it harder than that. You feed it through, you're gonna have much better uh results straight off the bat, right? Now, some people pass it through twice. It really depends on the technique you're using, what kind of texture you want, whether you need to pass it through once or twice. But those are the basics of it.
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+[25:55] I think the main problem people have, and I know you say you're doing a thorough trimming, is uh not trimming the meat properly. If you're putting uh just big chunks of meat in and you and the sinews going in and cartilage is going in, you're not gonna have a good product. So I think trimming it uh before you grind it is the most important thing you can do. Trim it into the pieces, then put those pieces on a sheet tray, put them in the freezer, par freeze them, then grind them. That's the way to get good results.
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+[26:22] Also, remember, please make sure to thoroughly clean your and sanitize your meat grinder so that nothing gets in there because you know otherwise you're introducing the same problems that you could get in commercially ground meat. Now, as for bones, I'm if you the best if you're buying meat that was cut on a band saw, right? So like you're buying like just chunks of beef that were cut on a bandsaw and then trimming, there's always the possibility, because I don't know what cut of meat you're using, right? But there's always the possibility that you'll get a little piece of like chine bone or something in there that's very hard to see. Now, you could when you trim trim the pieces before you grind them and before you f uh freeze them down to grind them, if you trim all the pieces down and feel all over them, you know, just rub your fingers all around them, you'll be able to feel if there's any sort of any sort of chips.
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+[27:09] But one way to do it is to buy if you're buying whole muscle cuts, right, like whole pieces to to grind and then trimming them into the into the pieces yourself before you grind them. That's the way to avoid a uh a lot of bones because you can see if someone's cut through, for instance, like the spine or something like that, or you see like a lot of bone things, you can see the entire structure of the bone, and it's gonna be a lot easier to cut all of those pieces out and trim down than it's gonna be if someone just takes meat and puts it in a band saw and it's hard to tell what the bone structure and the muscle structure is, right? So that's the first uh thing to do, and it also gives you like a real sense for the quality of the meat that you're using because you're gonna be chopping it into strips yourself. Um that's when I grind, that's typically what I'm doing, and I don't have problems with bone chips, so I'm assuming I just I'm just assuming that you're buying pre cut me uh like stew meat that's been like put through uh a band saw, and that's always there's always a slight chance that someone's gonna get a bone chip in. What do you think, Nastasha?
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+[28:06] I think that's a good answer, dude. You have to take a break. Oh, all right. So uh we're going on to our second break, call your questions in to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 218 2128 cooking issues.
+
+[28:21] You know what? When I yell groove like this, oh say I got the bit, baby. Yeah, yeah. Black way of young man. Someone got a groove like this.
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+[28:49] No. No. I need to grit. Grip, got to grit. Need to grit.
+
+[29:11] You know, I believe Brad Thomas. Brother. I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down.
+
+[29:21] I need to get down in order for me to get down. I got to get in D. Auto for me to get down, I gotta get in D. Need to get in D. Dog the D.
+
+[29:36] Down D. Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in all of your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[29:56] So, uh, so Nastasha, tomorrow's a big day. We're gonna be on uh Yeah, we're gonna be on the Martha Stewart. Well, someone's gonna need to run the rotive app while I'm talking to her, right? No. Huh?
+
+[29:59] No, you're doing it legally. Yeah, but we need someone needs to run it. Someone physically needs to run the machine while I'm there. Uh for people out there who are thinking of getting a rotive app, it does not run itself, folks. The machine does not run itself.
+
+[30:16] And we're doing a live segment tomorrow, which is going to include we're gonna carbonate, we're gonna be doing a gin and tonic where we're actually it's pretty cool. Uh we're gonna take a so for those of you out there that have access to liquid nitrogen. Kudos to you. If not, get yourself access to liquid nitrogen. It's an amazing, amazing material.
+
+[30:32] So we're gonna take uh we're gonna take blood oranges, because Nastasha's fascinated with blood oranges, and we're going to uh use uh an enzyme, Pectinx SPL, our favorite miracle enzyme, and we're gonna chemically supprem the the uh the the blood oranges. And the reason to do that is because of you that aren't hip hip to the fact, right? So with the way supreming is basically where you you cut the peel off and then you and then you slice it. You don't you only have the little little vesicles, little pips. You don't have any of the uh any of the uh what's it called?
+
+[31:02] The membrane. Yeah, the membrane in there, right? So that's supreming, right? Problem with supreming a blood orange is if you suppress a blood orange, they're gonna leak everywhere, and we don't want any leakage because we don't want the we want the drink to stay perfectly clear. We don't want any blood orange juice leaking out of the thing.
+
+[31:15] So we're not gonna suppress them normally. We're gonna use Pectanex SPL, our favorite uh uh pectin uh lye slash hemicellulose uh breaking down enzyme. That's the same one we use to make French fries. It's the same one we use when we're clarifying any any damn fruit juice, right? We just we we go through SPL like the end of the world is coming, and you can buy it from CookingIssues.com.
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+[31:37] Uh yes or no? Yeah, we have a little bit left. Well, we're gonna have to get more. I mean, we use that stuff all the time. Anyway, it's a miracle enzyme.
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+[31:44] The guys at NovaZimes who make it, they admit that it's a miracle enzyme. Pectanex SPL. Anyway, so uh we're gonna take uh Pectan X SPL and chemically supreme it so that we don't have to we can get rid of all the membranes without actually touching uh you know uh with a knife the uh the blood orange and then we're gonna put that in liquid nitrogen and freeze it solid, and what what happens there is that uh when you freeze uh citrus in liquid nitrogen and then really hard, and then you hit it with a rolling pin, uh all the little juice vesicles, the little pips break apart uh and they stay whole and they're not broken. And then you can use them uh as a garnish, which is what we're gonna do. So we're basically gonna pour a gin and tonic over a bunch of these uh frozen blood orange things.
+
+[32:27] And we tried it yesterday. It's pretty, it's pretty darn cool. Pretty pretty good looking. It tastes good. And uh Don Lee, uh bartender friend of ours, Don Lee, suggested we call it gin sack sack after the Korean sack sack pulpy drink.
+
+[32:40] Sack sack. Anyway, so we're gonna do that. We're gonna run the rotary evaporator uh live, which we've never done it live before, have we? For a live show? Yeah, for Jimmy.
+
+[32:48] Well, Jimmy Fallon was pre- pre-recorded. We ran it like it was live, but it was pre-recorded. So anyway, uh so uh we'll get to have the fun of running a rotary evaporator. I think we're gonna do we normally do scotch and peanuts, we're gonna do bourbon and peanuts because our good folks at Maker's Mark sent us a whole bunch of makers' mark, and that's what we're gonna use. Uh so what else are we doing on that show, Stas?
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+[33:05] And I think the ISI trick. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do some uh ISI infusion with cocoa nibs. Uh at least this is what I think. Well, we'll see whether they parish down, but anyway, that's what that's what we're gonna work on. Speaking of pears, I know I spoke about this before.
+
+[33:17] I don't want to get too into it because I know I've spoken about it before. I don't want to bore the hell out of you guys, but this I have a qu uh uh uh I need help on this. The t obviously the two pears that Nastasha and I tasted that were like, damn, I need that pear, right? Damn. One was Narun Barun, N-A-R-U-N-B-A-R-U-N, right?
+
+[33:38] It's in the list of stuff at the Brogue Dale, which is the miracle fruit collection in Kent that Nastash and I visited a couple weeks ago. Narun Barun is the pear that uh it eats like a pear, it's juicy like a pear, it's has no astringency whatsoever, and has the aroma and taste of a quince. It's a miracle pear. Sucker is a miracle. However, it is nowhere else to be found.
+
+[33:59] I could not find any other collections that have it. I couldn't find any references to it. If anyone out there, and we we've gotten in touch with uh the agricultural extension, uh that the germplasm library for pears in the U.S., which is in Corvallis, Oregon. We haven't heard back from them yet. But if any of you have any knowledge of this pear or of any other pear that tastes like uh and smells like a quince but has no astringency, please get in touch with us because I'm desperately seeking this.
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+[34:25] It's a miracle pear. Hey Dave, how do you spell it? N-A-R-N-A-R-U-N, new word B-A-R-U-N, Narun Barun. Uh and it I think it's derived from Turkish meaning like like awesome scent or something like that. I think it lit in Turk in Turkish, I think it means like awesome scent or graceful scent or something like that.
+
+[34:43] The other pear that we can't seem to find that was delicious was uh Nimrod. And I know it sounds like you know, like like a moron like Nimrod, but it was right there on the thing, and we'll put pictures on because I'm gonna put the pear post up soon, god willing. Uh, but Nimrod tasted like candy. The pear tasted like candy. So we want anyone to find these two.
+
+[35:00] Correct, we want anyone to find these pears. Help us find these pears. Please help us find these pears. Um right? Yeah.
+
+[35:06] Yeah. Okay. Uh okay. So uh also uh we we're working on a uh a new project, one that we've actually been working on before, that we're extremely, extremely excited about, and it's not technically related uh technical related at all. At least we tried to make it technically related, but we couldn't.
+
+[35:23] No, is uh dragons beard candy. So for those of you out there who uh don't know anything about dragons beard candy, um what you what you're basically doing is it's hand-pulled cotton candy, right? And so uh what you do is is you cook uh a mixture of sugar. Technically, they would use maltose, uh the Chinese recipes I've seen use maltose, but you can just use a little bit of corn syrup. So, like for I think we did like a kilo of sugar and like uh a hundred or two hundred grams of corn syrup, uh, like a teaspoon of vinegar, which helps invert the sugar even more so that you're not gonna get too much crystallization problems, water.
+
+[35:59] You cook the whole thing up to about 133 Celsius, right? You pull it off at like 132, it's gonna rise up. Uh and then you let it cool down, you set it into kind of hockey puck shapes, right? Then after it sets into a hockey puck shape hard, you nuke it for like 10 seconds to make it pliable again, and then you form it into a donut, and then as you uh after you form it into a doughnut, you pull it uh in your hands, keeping it very even, and you keep dredging it in uh we used cornstarch, you can use rice flour, we use cornstarch. You keep dredging it in this and then flipping it as a figure eight, and and basically every time you flip it a figure eight and put it back into a circle again and keep pulling it, you're doubling the number of strands.
+
+[36:40] So we do this like like 13 uh 14 times, which is like you know, two to the thirteenth, so we're talking thousands of of street threads by the time you're done. Hence Dragon's beard, because it looks like little like threads of candy. The stuff is amazing, stuff is awesome. It's got an a fantastic texture, it's totally different from from cotton candy. The trick is, and we're gonna put it up on the blog, the trick is pulling it the right way.
+
+[37:02] And so you can look on uh vid there's videos on the web, a guy named uh Peter Pang, I'm not making that up, Peter Pang, P A N G has uh um and it's his recipe that we use basically. He has a a thing where you can see it, and there's a bunch of things if you look up Dragon's Beard on the internet that you can see uh people doing this, but they don't really tell you the key. Here's the key to it to do it to do it right the front hand, and you'll have to look on the on the website, but the front hand holds still the back hand uh pulls the candy and then you rev you reverse grip it again and pull it. And that's the that's the trick. If you really whenever um this is any chef by the way, it's not just with dragon's beard.
+
+[37:39] I almost always ignore everything that a chef is saying because a lot of times it's wrong. And I've spent all of my time focusing on their hands. Like how how are their hands connected to the food? How is their hand connected to the knife? Like, for instance, like learning soba.
+
+[37:54] I was at a soba class with soba's, you know, buckwheat noodles, and I was uh at a soba class once, and everyone was looking at the chef's face and while the chef was sitting there cutting the the noodles by hand, because you cut the silba noodles with a hand with a special knife. Useless. Well you're gonna look at the guy's face. The guy's face doesn't cut noodles, you know what I mean? The guy's hand cuts noodles.
+
+[38:12] So you want to sit there and like watch the watch the dude's hand, and that's how you learn anything. It's the same thing with the dragon's beard. The only way that we were able to get somewhat proficient is not by the instructions that are on the web, because they're basically useless. It's it's watching their hands and seeing what's happening and uh then practicing. Now that's the good news.
+
+[38:29] That's a good tip. That's a good tip, right? The the bad news is is that we that you know, I kind of like my job is a tech guy, right? The FCI, so I figured we're gonna tech it up. So I was like, we're not gonna use rice flour or cornstarch or any stupid cra Oh, by the way, I also spray it with a little pan before I start, so I'm cheating, so you know don't tell anyone.
+
+[38:45] That's kind of technical. Yeah, it's kind of technical. Yeah, right. There you go. Pam, boom, tech.
+
+[38:44] Anyway, so no. So we were like, okay, we're gonna use well, we tried tapioca and sorbit n. By the way, when you ask for tapioca maltodextrin and you want to make a powder out of an oil, I I mean I don't know how many times I've said this to people. Do not say just tapioca maltodextrin, say ensorbit uh M, I think. Uh tapioca maltodextrin from the National Starch Corporation, because no other tapioca maltodextrin will make a powder out of an oil.
+
+[39:13] Anyway, that said, I I say it a million times and it still happens. Anyway, whatever. So uh we tried to mix uh flavorful oil with tapioca maltodextrin and then cut it with cornstarch, and the texture wasn't as good, right? Right. Texture's no good.
+
+[39:24] And then we tried this is oh I had such high hopes for this. We we bought almond flour, which was delicious, uh, in Chinatown. It had it had almond and a little bit of bitter almond in it, so it tasted like an amaretto cookie. The flour did. It was great stuff by itself.
+
+[39:37] We then bought like some really expensive uh freeze-dried raspberries and blended them with the uh almond flour to make a powder, put it through a sieve so it was nice and fine, and then we dragged the uh the dragon's beard as we were making it instead of through cornstarch to that stuff, and it looked amazing. It tasted amazing, texture sucked. Texture was terrible. It was not nearly as good, right? Right, yeah.
+
+[40:00] Yeah. It's kind of unfortunate. So if any of you guys out there have a uh some sort of technique to to do this and to tech it up, then I can start demoing it like up, down, left, and right, because that stuff is super, super delicious, right? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[40:14] So, uh on my way out, I'm gonna make a list. This is why people can keep me honest, right? Of what posts we're supposed to be working on on the blog. Right. Well, oh, and also people who who want to come to the hydrocolloids class, can they still sign up?
+
+[40:24] No, no, we have a hydrocolloids class uh on fr uh this Thursday and Friday, but it's already totally full because it's maxed out at seven well, kind of, yeah. Yes, it's maxed out at seventeen, so you'll have to sign up sign up for the next one. So, uh here are the posts that I'm gonna pretend that I'm doing very soon, but uh we need to get it done. By the way, so uh we've done a lot of tests recently on combu. Combu is delicious.
+
+[40:46] Someone's got to keep me honest. We've done a lot a lot of interesting work with uh combu, our good friend Yuji uh Haraguchi at uh at True Rural Foods, our Japanese uh mega supplier, sent us some amazing combu. We're tasted from the top, from the bottom, from the center, different concentrations. So it's really building on our old post on combu, which you can check out. I love myself some combu.
+
+[41:07] Gotta obviously do the pair post. Yeah. Someday I have to get back and finish those low temperature cooking things, right? But the most recent post we have out is on country ham. And I encourage you to go read it.
+
+[41:17] Uh I love American Country Ham. Uh one of our sponsors actually of our show is S. Wallace Edwards, who makes one of the finest country hams uh here in the United States. Uh which one did we have last night? Uh we had from Finchville Farms.
+
+[41:29] Finchville Farms is a manufacturer in Kentucky, uh that was actually just bought recently, uh a couple of years ago by someone, but who's kept all the old techniques that the Robertsons uh use and the Robertsons are still there, uh, you know, curing country hams. But uh I encourage everyone to buy more American country ham and just please, please do not well, you can cook it if you have to. Don't overcook a country ham. And better yet, don't cook it at all. Slice it on a meat slicer and serve it like prosciutto.
+
+[41:57] So uh go eat your country ham, try out S. Wallace Edwards, try out uh Finchville Farms, try out Colonel Newsom's out of Kentucky, try Alan Benton out of uh out of Tennessee. Try uh Burger Smoke House, which makes a bunch of commodity hams, also makes a really delicious uh attic age one, which is their special one. They're out of Missouri. What do you say?
+
+[42:16] Heritage. What heritage? They don't make a country ham. Oh. We'll just eat their ham.
+
+[42:21] Eat yeah, ham is look. Look, a fresh ham is a fresh is a fresh ham, right? Like, God wants cams to be cured. He especially wants them to be cured into country hams and or dry cured uh hams. Like this is like if your pig is gonna die, right?
+
+[42:36] You're gonna kill a pig, right? Pigs are smart, uh, they're friendly, they're amazing creatures. You're gonna kill this pig because it's so delicious. Like you owe it to the pig to make the the ham into a dry cured country ham. Seriously.
+
+[42:52] Like it's like the height of what can happen to uh uh a pig in terms of meat. It's the height of what can happen. I mean, um anyway, that's my feeling about it. Uh thank you. This has been Cooking Issues, and we'll see you again next week.
+
+[43:13] You've been listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. And today at 3 p.m., there will be a live episode of the food scene on heritage radio network.com. Ian Nauer spent nearly a decade cooking in Gourmet's Tex Test Kitchen, catered for in the garden and the barefoot contessa herself, and now is writing a cookbook for Houghton Mifflin based on being a big city country boy. Again, tune into the food scene on Heritage Radio Network.com every Tuesday at 3 p.m. And right now we're running a promotion where you, the listener, can win five Porter House pork Shops.
+
+[43:48] All you need to do is send me an email at info at heritage radio network dot com or follow us on Twitter at HRN Update, send me a message, the first person to contact me with the code word bib salad will win five Porter House Pork Shops from Heritage Foods USA. Again, you've been listening to the Heritage Radio Network. Thanks for tuning in. Now when my baby sees me, she's gonna bust my head right in.
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+[0:25] Hello, you are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, the show where you call in with all your cooking related questions. Usually technical, but not always, right? I'm here in the studio today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, the uh person who keeps the wheels on the on the cooking issues train. Uh call in all your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:47] That's 718-497-2128. We'll be here live for the next 45 minutes or so. And today's Cooking Issues is brought to you by Cabot Cheese. Uh Cabot Cheese of Vermont Dairy Farm family owned since 1919 and proud to be voted your favorite t uh four-time favorite champion cheddar, whoever you happen to be. Uh look for the really great taste of cabbage cheese in your favorite grocer dairy case or on the web at Cabot Cheese.com.
+
+[1:12] So Nastasha, apparently it's not carried at grocery stores that are not your favorite. Great. Only your favorite. It's only carried in your favorite your favorite local grocery store. Actually, you know, uh they cabot does actually make some uh excellent products.
+
+[1:23] Um I haven't actually had cabbots in a while, maybe we'll go try it. Anyway, uh so uh let's go to some before we have any on-air questions. Uh let's go to some questions from the email. Uh Ryan Santos writes in, I just recently became fascinated with Vietnamese egg soda, but they confuse me in theory. Uh, first of all, uh everything I read on the internet says that the soda cooks the egg.
+
+[1:44] Is there any truth to that? Secondly, how does it foam up so much? I'd expect that from egg white, but they use egg yolks, thanks, Ryan. Okay, so for those of you that aren't familiar uh with Vietnamese egg sodas, which I assume is 99.9% of you. I was not familiar with it before uh this morning when I saw this question.
+
+[2:00] Uh what what happens is is you put uh some sweet and condensed milk in the bottom of a glass, you uh crack an egg yolk into it, and you stir it around to combine the sweet and condensed milk in the egg yolk, and then you top it with uh soda water and then you stir. Uh and it does indeed foam up uh and it gets white at the bottom and uh apparently it's delicious. I didn't have sweet and condensed milk, so I didn't taste it. I actually did crack an egg yolk into soda water this morning. Take a look at it.
+
+[2:24] Uh I'm gonna go ahead and make this statement. Uh the egg yolk is not in any way, shape, or form getting cooked in this procedure. Like, do not think in any way that you are killing the bacteria in the egg yolk by adding it to seltzer. That's just uh not not the case. That's just not the case.
+
+[2:43] Uh so I didn't see any scientific backup for uh the egg yolk being uh cooked. Uh again, do not assume it is cooked. If you're gonna serve it to someone who is uh has an immune problem or is uh pregnant or didn't you have to use pasteurized egg to use this technique? Um now uh that said, um, you know, there's not that much contamination in egg yolks these days, so it it's probably not gonna be uh a problem. I think it's one in I don't know, one in two thousand or one in eight thousand or something like that.
+
+[3:13] Uh eggs is contaminated with salmonella. So the the odds aren't very high, uh, and you're not necessarily gonna get salmonella even if you do um even if you if it does have salmonella in it. Uh that's it, it the egg yolk also is gonna cause a lot of foaming, similar to the way an egg white does, because it contains uh a lot of emulsifiers. So egg whites foam because of the protein, which helps stabilize air bubbles, and egg yolks, they also have protein, which might help stabilize a bubbles uh air bubbles, but they have a lot of emulsifiers in them. And emulsifiers, um, you know, as you may know, are things that make it easier for oil and water to kind of live together next to each other.
+
+[3:44] They lower the energy uh required uh to keep oil and water next to each other. Now, uh they also lower the energy to keep air and water uh next to each other. And so not only do they stabilize oil and water emulsions, they also stabilize air in water emulsion. So they're the protein plus the emulsifiers, uh like lessithin phospholipids, things like this in the egg yolk are going to help produce uh a nice foam. And if you you know you know from cooking that you beat egg yolks, you can make them really thick and creamy.
+
+[4:14] They hold uh they hold uh foam fairly well, not as well as an egg white, but still uh there's a lot of uh foaming potential there, especially in something gassy like uh like CO2. That said, also, uh I have to say, uh Ryan, that you caused my computer to crash in a huge way this morning because the first uh Vietnamese egg soda recipe I looked up happened to be on a porn site. And then when I tried to get off of the porn site uh to look up other things about Vietnamese egg soda, it it kept on like you know, like a million windows would come up and say, Stop! Do you do you like Asian women? Do you like Asian women?
+
+[4:48] Don't navigate away from our site if you like Asian women. So uh thank you, Ryan, for crashing my computer. Uh okay. Second question comes from Chris Anderson in New York City. Uh I was wondering if there are any differences in the way you would sous eat a highly marbolized piece of beef like USDA Prime or Wagyu as opposed to choice or select.
+
+[5:06] I read somewhere uh that the fat and wagyu renders at a lower temp than standard beef, but I'm not sure if this is true. Also, some people suggest searing meat both pre and post-Souvete, and we are some of those people, actually. Uh is there any advantage to this technique? Yes, uh, over just searing it once right before serving. Okay, these are excellent questions.
+
+[5:22] I have not done a lot of cooking with uh with with Wagyu. Um uh my assumption is is that even if the fat does render it a lower temperature, which would indicate uh a less saturated fat, um, like for instance, you know, like take for instance pork. Pork the pork fat's a lot less saturated than uh beef fat, and even pork fat doesn't really render out that much when you're cooking sous vide, especially at the temperatures you're gonna be using to cook uh a piece of wagyu, which are gonna be in the range of 54 to no higher, even for skirt or something like that, 57 degrees um unless you're doing a short rib or something uh Celsius. So in that range, you're really not gonna get a lot of fat melt out in in your uh in your meat, even if it's you know, fairly um even if it's fairly unsaturated, uh from a beef standpoint, that is. So now um as to whether or not the texture is gonna be different, I don't know.
+
+[6:12] I just don't have enough experience, but my guess is is that it's gonna handle pretty much in the same way. Uh it's just gonna have more marbling in in the center. A lot of people try to use uh the a question I get asked a lot for Sous V. And by the way, for those of you who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, Sous vide is any kind of cooking that goes on in a vacuum bag and it allows you to uh you know cook at a very accurate temperature in conjunction with low temperature cooking, which is really what I like to talk about most of the time instead of just sous vide, where we very accurately control the temperature, so there's no possibility of overcooking your meat. And uh because of that, you tend uh meats that don't have a lot of internal marbling, things like uh, you know, lower lower grade cuts of meat, they don't dry out just because you never overcooked them, right?
+
+[6:51] So a higher grade cut of meat with a lot of internal marbling is gonna taste juicy and delicious because it's got all that dang fat in it, right? Which is great, you know what I mean? But a lower one tends to dry out faster because it doesn't have that protection of all that fat. And while it is true that uh that lower grades can be cooked to good effect using sous vide, I've never been the kind of person who says, Well, I can take a crappy cut of meat now and pretend that it's a good cut of meat and serve it to someone, right, Nastasha? We're right.
+
+[7:14] We're against that, yeah. Yes. Anyway. But that said, it's a uh great technique for that. As as for your uh second question about searing both before and after, uh, yes, you should sear both before and after.
+
+[7:24] If you just search uh and we if you come, by the way, the best way to, you know, not to toot our own horn to toot, but it the best way to learn how to to do this if you don't have time in your restaurant, which almost no one does, uh, even if you've been doing uh sous vide and low temp for a while, we teach a course called Sous Vide and Low Temperature Cooking at the school. And what we do, for instance, is give you a bunch of side by side taste tests of um of uh what it tastes like if you just sear it before, or if you sear it just after, or if you sear it before and after, or if you don't sear it. And really the best way to do it is and you can just taste it if you can do it side by side. And really, one of the main values of the class that we teach is that we do all these comparisons for you that you would never have time to to do in your restaurant or uh or at home. Uh that said, um, you know, if you just sear after, can you get a good result?
+
+[8:12] Yes. But something on the order of 75 to 80% of the any given person in the in a room of, and we've done this, you know, many, many, many, many dozens of times. 75 to 80% of the people given a side by side test will prefer the one that's seared both before and after. And here, and it's also safer. Here are the reasons.
+
+[8:31] You sear it beforehand, you kill the bacteria on the outside of the meat, which is where most of the bacteria are anyway, unless you stab the meat by accident or something like that, right? So there's a safety issue. Secondly, you're gonna start coloring the meat and you're gonna start building uh the myard flavors in it, which means that it's gonna taste meatier in the bag. And it's also uh the second time when you sear it, uh it's gonna build a crust a lot, lot, lot faster, which means you're gonna get a darker crust, a better crust, a more flavorful crust on your second sear if you prime that sear at the beginning by searing it before you put it in the bag. You know, the one caveat you have to chill the meat after you sear it before you put it in the bag.
+
+[9:05] But you always have to sear afterwards because coming right out of the bag, there is no crust. It's kind of like, you know, kind of, I don't know, weak looking, right? Weak? Yes. Weak, weak, weak.
+
+[9:15] The meat is weak. You are weak. Anyway, so you have to sear uh before and after. Thanks for your question, Chris. Michael Nakin writes in, he says, So I just tried the cream whipper infusion with cocoa noes.
+
+[9:27] And by the way, we have a new technique using the ISI uh uh whipped cream makers, and you can read about it on cookingissues.com. Uh and uh it basically what we're doing is we're using nitrous oxide, which is laughing gas, the stuff that you know in high school people they buy whipped cream and they just spray the gas into their mouth to get high instead of the whipped cream, which is the part I like anyway, because I don't I hate being high on nitrous, it's terrible, it's awful, and it makes you feel really stupid, right? I mean I don't know. Oh, yeah, okay. Well I seriously always see it.
+
+[9:54] All right, sure. Okay. So uh so anyway, so you put uh you put your food, a porous thing, along with a liquid, we usually use liquor, into a container, you hit it with nitrous oxide, the nitrous oxide under pressure, uh becomes dissolves into the liquid and also forces the liquid into the pores of whatever uh you're doing cocoa nibs, staranis, uh whatever. And then you let it uh pressurize in and sit for a minute, two minutes, three minutes, it depends on the product, and then you vent the thing really quickly. When you vent the container, the the gas all of a sudden the pressure is lowered and it starts bubbling, gushing out, almost like if you shook a can of seltzer and opened it and sprayed it on your buddy, right?
+
+[10:30] And uh that gushing out and that foaming basically sucks the flavor back out of your product very quickly, and you can make very quick infusion. So that's you know, in a nutshell, that's ISI um that's ISI infusion, you know, nitrous infusion. A lot of people, let me just get into this, because a lot of people, you know, there's a lot of back and forth on the blog, and a lot of people compare it with a technique in the laboratory called uh nitrogen cavitation. In nitrogen cavitation, you're basically giving someone the bends on purpose. You're putting very high uh pressure nitrogen into something and then immediately releasing the pressure, which causes small nitrogen bubbles to form and uh rupture things apart, nitrogen cavitation.
+
+[11:03] Uh this is not r this technique, I don't really think it's the exact same as nitrogen cavitation. In a laboratory, you want to use something that's fairly unreactive, like nitrogen, and f and has fairly low solubility so that when you're done with the procedure, most of it's gone, right? Uh so this technique works at a much lower pressure than nitrogen cavitation uh because it's using a relatively soluble gas, something that wants to be soluble in a lit in the liquid, nitrous, right? Which is why I think, I think, I don't know, uh a lot of people say that these infusions taste better after they've been sitting five, ten, fifteen minutes. And I think it's because the nitr the nitrous keeps all off-gassing out out of the product.
+
+[11:40] Now I think that's what's going on, but I can't, but I can't prove it. So um so Michael says his cocoa nib uh tasted like uh a donkey's behind and uh his cocoa nib infusion that he's done. And he said the nibs were raw, he got them at a health food store, presumably aimed at raw foodists. Is that where I went wrong? Short answer, yes.
+
+[11:59] Uh should I be using toasted nibs? Short answer, yes. And have you tried it with chopped-up bar chocolate instead of nibs? No. Uh so let me go into this uh the longer form of this answer piece by piece.
+
+[12:09] Uh one, the quality of the nibs makes a huge difference in the quality of the infusion you're gonna get. Huge. Huge, right? Yes, huge. Yeah.
+
+[12:19] So uh we've tried it with a bunch of nibs, even expensive nibs, and um if you taste the nibs and they taste acrid, or if they taste kind of sour, or if they have any sort of off flavor at all, that's gonna end up in your infusion and your infusion is gonna taste like a donkeys behind. Now, uh, and we've done this with expense, even expensive companies that'll sell you their second grade nibs, uh, they tend to taste they taste bad, right? Also, um, and I have nothing I love uh I I myself have friends who are raw foodists, so I'm not saying anything against the raw foodists, but I have not yet had a raw chocolate bar that I thought tasted like chocolate, right? I mean, anyone here we're oh by the way, we've just got joined in the studio by by Nick Nick Wong. He doesn't want to talk, but he's here, so the presence of Nick is in the room.
+
+[13:04] And I was have you ever tasted a raw chocolate bar that you enjoyed? What? No. No. Right?
+
+[13:09] No. Nastasha, have you ever tasted a raw chocolate bar that you've liked? No. Now listen, here's a challenge. A challenge to anyone out there, right?
+
+[13:18] I want I want to eat a raw chocolate bar that I think is the best chocolate bar I've ever had. I'm gonna issue you a challenge. If someone can send me, if someone can send me a raw chocolate bar that I think it and I'm not a liar, by the way. If I think it's delicious, I'll say it's delicious. Everyone here agree about that?
+
+[13:35] Like I'm not a liar about that, right? No, not about that. Yeah. So if someone sends me a chocolate bar that's raw that I think is truly delicious, I will only eat raw food for a week and I will say how much I love it on the blog and on it. Only raw food for a week.
+
+[13:48] If someone sends me a chocolate bar that's raw, and I'll learn how to cook it, and I'll I'm gonna do I'll do all that stuff. If someone can truly send me something that is a chocolate bar that's raw, and by the way, I think a lot of raw food people get snowed by the idea of raw chocolate because there's a fermentation procedure, the temperatures get quite high. I don't know, it has to be uh, you know, there's bacteria in cocoa nibs, it has to be pasteurized. I don't know how you would actually pasteurize uh cocoa nibs and actually actually actually keep them raw. What they might mean is pasteurized but unroasted.
+
+[14:14] I don't know. I don't really understand in even in theory how that that would happen. Uh but uh so there's the challenge for the raw the raw chocolate bar. So um I hope that happens. Yeah, I hope so too.
+
+[14:30] Uh, because that would be it would be a good learning experience for me. Now the uh the chopped up chocolate bar, I don't think is gonna work very well because it's just not very porous. There's not a lot of uh air in the chocolate to get a good infusion across it. If you uh I mean if you're gonna use bar chocolate, I would use something more similar to fat washing where you would melt the chocolate into the uh into the um what are the word I'm looking for? Like liquor, and then uh and then put it in the freezer and then separate the chocolate out of the top, but you're gonna get some of the bitterness out that you're not gonna get in the very fl fast infusion that we do uh with with our technique.
+
+[15:00] Uh if you want to try uh with cocoa nibs, I rec we recommend, and you know, they're not paying us for anything, but it's we've had the best results with uh the Valrona uh cocoa nibs uh among cocoa nibs. And the reason we use nibs, like I say, as opposed to bar chocolate is just nibs are very porous, uh, you know, a lot of air holes in them, so we can get very good uh, you know, in and out in and out. We can put the liquor in, get the liquor out. So I hope that helps with your uh with your cocoa nib infusion problem. We're gonna go to our first commercial break.
+
+[15:27] Call in all your questions. 2718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. Cooking issues. You feel good. So much bone brother.
+
+[15:39] How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. I don't want to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down.
+
+[15:49] Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. Fred, get it, take us higher. Take us higher.
+
+[16:50] Fred. Welcome back to Cooking Issues Radio. Um Dave Arnold here at Cooking Issues. Call in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, to 718-497-2128-718-497-2128 coming to you live from a uh little box outside of uh Roberta's Pizzeria in uh in Bushwick, in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Actually, um the good people from uh Roberta's did an event with us uh what was it this last weekend, right?
+
+[18:18] What was that thing called? That was called like Taste Like Teen Spirit, was it? Alchemy of Taste and Smell. Alchemy of Taste and Smell? Yeah, that was the name of it.
+
+[18:27] Something like that. Oh Jesus, we can't remember the name of it. All right. Well, Daniel Patterson, who's actually you know, one of my favorite chefs from the San Francisco Bay area. And if you ever get out to his restaurant, Qua in uh in San Francisco, you should definitely go.
+
+[18:38] It's one of my favorite restaurants. He's kind of hilarious because when you meet him, he seems like a laid-back Californian, but he's really like not at all laid back, right? I mean, he's like apparently laid back, but not. Yeah. Is that true?
+
+[18:50] Yeah, no, it's true. That's true. So he wrote a cookbook whose name I can't remember because I'm an idiot and I didn't look it up before I came on the air. And uh he um it it was basically with a uh a perfumer, a natural perfumer named Mandy Aftel, and it was about using uh essential oils and uh and different you know essences in in cooking. And so uh Mandy and Daniel teamed up to come over to uh New York and have this event about basically taste and smell, whose name we apparently can't remember, even though we worked it for two days last weekend.
+
+[19:21] Yeah. Uh and so uh there was uh it was a you know a bunch of interesting uh folks involved. Harold McGee came in, uh Dave Chang was there, uh Wiley Dufresne, you know, uh my my my brother in law, my bro, Wiley. Uh who else do who else do we have there? Nastasha, you remember?
+
+[19:29] Uh Alexander. Alex Talbot from uh Alex Talbot. I already said Robert's colour was there. Carla was there. Anyway, so uh we had uh what what who else was there?
+
+[19:45] Alex Talbot from uh Ideas and Food, George Mendez, George Mendez from Aldea, like a bunch, a bunch of friends. Who else is? I know I'm missing someone who's like gonna be like all pissed because I've anyway, like a listener. A bunch of really Yeah, right. No, because the one person who listens is gonna go tell them about it.
+
+[20:00] Anyway, so a bunch of very good good people. So uh I don't know how how you got on this. Yeah, the alchemy of taste and smell is right. Yeah, so it was a fun event. We did a rotary evaporator presentation with Audrey Saunders, who did basically all the cocktails for the event, some really actually very good cocktails, Audrey Saunders from uh from Pegu Club.
+
+[20:16] Uh and I don't know why the hell I started talking about that. Maybe because she's really interesting. She's like she's a so she is she kind of nutty in a good way, right, Nastasha? What do you say? Not in a good way.
+
+[20:29] And she uh she gave us some like super high grade uh hove frankincense, some like from Oman, some sort of crazy good frankincense from Oman, and it had us distill it into cognac. It was pretty good. What do you think? You know, I mean It was strong. Uh strong.
+
+[20:44] Anyway, so that was a that was a fun event. That's what we were doing this weekend, and I had a reason to talk about it, but I can't remember what it is, so I'll go on to something else. Oh, we have a caller? Yes. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[20:54] Hi there, Dave. Uh my name is Colin, down from Washington, DC. Sorry, uh the signal's probably kind of bad from what it sounds like. I'm okay, I can I can hear you. Yeah.
+
+[21:06] So we've got two things. Uh one is I have been working with Judge Wan Papers. Right. Uh and looking to sort of draw out that tingling, kind of numbing parasita thing you get from them. More for the aspect than the overall flavor of them.
+
+[21:28] Okay. Uh so I was looking at ways to kind of concentrate that and kind of make it the one of the big issues is that it seems to take a couple minutes to really warm up and kick in when you just incorporate the maybe ground peppercorns in something. But I was looking to see if there are ways to kind of speed that up a bit so that it you know isn't so it's been done with the thing that I was having to eat by the time he finally hit this numbing kind of tingling thing. All right. Let me okay, stay on the air because I might have to ask you a question.
+
+[22:05] But uh first of all, very interesting. As the first person who's ever had a like a crazy cell connection where it sounds like he's on an auto-tuner, right? It's like T Pain calling in to the studio. It's like uh you know, I love auto-tuning. Everyone now, of course, loves auto-tuning, but anyway, so like a kudos to the auto-tuning cell phone reception, because that's awesome.
+
+[22:22] Uh second of all, so in case you couldn't understand, because I my connection is probably better than yours over the radio for listeners. Uh the the question was he's using Sichuan peppercorns. He's not so interested, I mean he's interested, but not for this application, in the flavor of the Szechuan peppercorn, more in the effect, the mouth, the numbing tingling effect of the Sichuan peppercorn. And so, and the question is how can you concentrate or uh or you know, get get these kind of flavors concentrated. Okay.
+
+[22:45] Uh it's very interesting. Someone just asked me last week or so whether I can distill the the the tingling effect of Sichuan peppercorn and uh as as one way to concentrate it, for instance. And the answer is I don't know because I don't know what chemical it is, so I don't know how volatile it is, whether it can be distilled. But I'm pretty sure that you can make a tincture of Sichuan peppercorn in high-proof alcohol and get and get that get that out. The other alternative you have, I mean, but besides tinctures and possibly distillation, depending on the weight.
+
+[23:11] So for instance, capsation, the heat from red pepper, doesn't distill because it's too heavy, but uh the pungency of horseradish does distill. My feeling, if I had to guess, is that Sichuan peppercorn, the tingling sensation would not distill because you can't smell it the same way you can smell the the I mean you can smell the Sichuan peppercorn, but not that kind of pungency the same way you could with like a horseradish, for instance, or a wasabi, both of which distill. Uh so my feeling is that you probably won't be able to distill it. You have to use a um you'll have to use uh uh an infusion or you could try the ISI infusion, actually, frankly, right? Where you just put the Sichuan peppercorn in an ISI container and um and then you know hi uh hit it with liquor, high-proof liquor, and hit it with two chargers, uh swirl it, let it stand, swirl it for like a minute, let it sit for another minute, vent it out, let it stand for five minutes, strain and see whether you get a good result.
+
+[24:01] I'd actually probably work, don't you think, Nastasha? That I think that would work. Yeah, we were gonna try that last week with Cliff, remember? Oh, is that Cliff? Anyway.
+
+[24:08] So uh, but here's some other alternatives if that doesn't work. Of course, uh you know, you're probably familiar with the product called uh Sichuan Buttons, which is a little flour, but it's I don't really like I mean uh I have friends who make them and sell them, so I don't want to say anything too negative about them, but I I have a problem with them because they're so strong that it tastes and they're not as subtle as Sichuan peppercorn in that Sichuan peppercorn gives you like a little bit of that funkiness and like a mouth cooling thing. This tastes like you just stuck your tongue on a car battery to me. Like it's too, it's too aggressive. And so uh I you know I can't really uh I can't I can't imagine using it just because it's so so aggressive and the effects are so long lasting that you know like I'd have a problem serving it.
+
+[24:49] Um that's me though. A lot of people love them. Uh another thing that you might want to look into is on the Japanese side, instead of going for a Chinese Sichuan peppercorn, go for like a Sancho pepper, which you know, these little green ones. And apparently the the the best ones have like two, in other words, like the it like they're looking like little green balls, and then but some of them have like two green balls, which look I hate to say this on air but like testicles kind of. They say it looks like a bell, but really they mean testicle.
+
+[25:14] Anyway, and those are the ones that are most prized. Guess why? Anyway, so they uh so those uh peppers, uh this little Sancho things, I think it's Sancho, right? Sancho. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[25:23] The those are kind of intermediate between uh the Sichuan uh peppercorn, which are drier and maybe have some of their pungency gone away, and um and and the um and the the Sichuan buttons, which I think are just kind of like hitting you over the head with a baseball bat. So you might want to try that. Is any of this helpful? You still there? No, he's gone.
+
+[25:42] Anyway, so uh thank you, Colin Colin. Uh Colin, the auto-tuning call in. Uh, and uh I hope that answers uh some of your some of your questions. So uh meanwhile, let's get back to uh some more of our other questions, which Nastasha thought it would be fun to start looking up directions to someplace while we're in the middle of the radio show so that I can't see my questions anymore. Uh uh just you know, I like to I like to nudge her a little bit while uh while we're here.
+
+[26:08] So uh Nick Wong, who is formerly uh an intern with us at the school, one of our favorites, good man, and now working at Sambar. Uh Sambar, you know, our friend Dave Chang's uh one of his restaurants, they're working on uh elderberry vinegar. So he brought in some for us to taste. It's true or false. True.
+
+[26:25] You have to get closer to the microphone when you say true. Yeah, true. Anyway, so he brought it to us in a Sazerac rye bottle, which of course we like the Sazerac rod. And my impression is initially they were going to try and make elderberry wine, but they didn't like the taste of it so much, so they're gonna make it uh in in vinegar. And I like anyone that's trying to make a vinegar, so we're gonna we're gonna give it a taste test here on air.
+
+[26:43] Hold on a sec, hold on a sec. It's good. It's good, right? Nastasha, what do you well you don't like drinking vinegar, Nastasha? I think this would make a good soda if it was sweetened.
+
+[26:53] The acidity level of it is not quite up to a normal high proof uh vinegar yet. But I think if you were to um add a little bit of sugar to this and then carbonate it, it'd be a great soda. And we've actually done vinegar sodas uh before. One of my favorite things that we I've ever worked on was we did a uh a vinegar soda that we poured over uh fig ice cream. That was that was some delicious business, right?
+
+[27:16] That was some good stuff. Anyway, so like uh this this uh maybe uh we could use for something like that. Anyway, so uh I have a question here. Uh maybe I'll hand it that one after the after the commercial break. Uh Matthew Hex writes in and says, It's Matt from uh Uptown who took uh the cla our Sous Vintensive class.
+
+[27:34] Howdy, Matt. Uh, and he got a great deal on a poly science model 71 immersion circulator on eBay. Uh and it works great, but he has a few questions. Now I'm uh I didn't have time to look up which one was the model 71, but I think I have an idea from what you uh are you know asked me the questions on which one it is, so we'll we'll deal with it. And for those of you uh out there who don't know what immersion circulator is, there's not probably not that many ones of our list people who listen to us who don't know what emergent circular is, but I hope there is.
+
+[27:59] And and here's what it is it's a piece of equipment that very, very accurately controls water or liquid temperatures, and it's kind of the piece of equipment that you need to do low temperature cooking. And low temperature cooking is the kind of the revolutionary new cooking technique where you know instead of cooking a steak to you know in a 400-degree oven, even though you only want to cook it to 130 degrees, you just cook it to 130 degrees and then sear it uh before and after. Okay? So that's what we're talking about. And you know, they used to be like $2,000.
+
+[28:25] Uh they then went down to about a thousand, and now you can buy them in Williams Sonoma for about $800. So uh I believe the Model 71 is an old school analog one that doesn't have a digital readout. And I've talked to Philip Preston, the manufacturer uh of the polycynife circulators, um, for a um you know, for a long time about these older ones, and they work great, right? Um the problem is is that you need to uh calibrate them because there's no digital readout that uh you know tells you what temperature it's at. You have to put a thermocouple into your bath and then just turn the dial uh and then you just wait to see where it stabilizes, and you're gonna see the light, the heating light, flash off and on, and it's gonna get stable and it will stay stable.
+
+[29:05] It's not gonna go all over the place. They are nice and stable, but you do need an external digital thermometer to uh determine exactly what temperature you're at, and that's really the disadvantage of an analog, um, an analog uh circulator. The other question was there's a thermostat on the back, and uh and uh Matthew wants to know what it's for. Uh now uh what that is is that's usually the over temp thermostat. So if like a knucklehead cook in your in your place pulls the uh circulator out of water and then runs it out of water, there's a there's a little safety override such that it doesn't melt the whole machine down and catch your building on fire.
+
+[29:38] And that little safety thermostat in the back determines at what temperature it decides to click and turn off. I would just turn it up to 200, which is two or like 150, anything well above the boiling point of water, just so it's not clicking off on you all the time, because if it does click off, you have to press a little reset button to get it to work again. So uh that said, as long as that thing keeps working, it should keep working forever. Those older units, well, not forever, but should keep working well and accurately. Those older units have a different style of bearing on them, so you might start hearing bearing squeal after uh you know after um you know a couple months or a year, in which case, you know, you can WD 50 it uh 50, WD 40 it for uh yeah, slip the tongue.
+
+[30:18] Uh you can WD 40 it for a little while, but eventually then your motor's gonna go, at which point I don't know whether it would make sense to replace it, but you know, if you get a good deal, uh they they work great. And by the way, a note on the on the new circulators that are coming out. If you have one of the new circulators uh from Philip with uh poly science, the ones that they have in William Sonoma, which I you know I like. That's what I use at home now, is the new one. Uh well if you're if you're working in New York City, the first thing you should do is pop the little plate off the front that says Sous vide professional and just sand the word sous vide off of it so that if you have it in your kitchen in New York City and the health inspector walks in, they're not like you're doing sous vide without a hasuk plan.
+
+[30:51] So that's that's exactly that's the first, even though I have it at home. The first thing I did was pop the plate off and sand the word sous vide off of it. But the second thing is you should be very careful um that none of your cooks uh go uh into the calibration mode in it uh and um and change the temperature. So if you you know you just press a button and you and you can like change it between Fahrenheit and Celsius, which is also awesome. I love that.
+
+[31:15] But if you press that button again, you're changing the offset, which is basically a calibration feature. But if you're not careful, right, you can basically throw it out of calibration by like three degrees. So it's something you should be aware of is to is to make sure your cooks aren't changing the calibration without knowing it. I had a cook do that, and uh, you know, all the eggs were off by three degrees. So instead of being a perfect poached egg, we had raw eggs.
+
+[31:39] You know what I mean? Because the difference between a sixty-two degree Celsius egg, which is perfect for eggs benedict, and a 59 degree egg, which is almost raw, is like, you know, huge, huge. Anyway, so uh be careful your cooks aren't changing the offset. I think in in future versions, uh Philip's gonna make it so that uh it's a lot uh harder to change the offset. But that said, we love the new circulator.
+
+[32:01] So we're gonna go to our second commercial break. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Need to grit bit no bread. You know, I believe Brad Thomas, Brother. I'm getting ready to wave y'all in, you know what?
+
+[32:47] I feel so down. I need to get down in order for me to get down, I got to get in D. Otto for me to get down, I gotta get in D. Need to get in D. Dog the D.
+
+[33:04] Down D. Funk to D. Down D. Ow! Get on down.
+
+[33:26] Morgan Lamp, you like me? I think I can think about making the big ill. Is you over there? We better fang one bus. Alright.
+
+[33:41] Gotta hell a pump. Oh yeah. Welcome back to Cooking Issues, a show where we answer all of your cooking issues, or at least we try to. Call in your uh questions too. 718 497 2128.
+
+[33:54] 718, still got vinegar in my mouth. 718 497 2128 coming to you live for the next 15 minutes or so. Okay, so we have a question from Max. Uh, and uh part of it I'm just gonna read straight just because uh I can't I can't possibly paraphrase. But uh he recently found a manufacturer of Xanthan gum where he can purchase like a food-grade Xanthan gum.
+
+[34:16] He calls it blow, which is hilarious. Although if you were like uh he's here, I'll read it exactly. He says, uh, I recently found a manufacturer of Xanthan gum uh near me to purchase food and pharmacy grade blow. Now, assuming you're referring to the Xanthan gum as blow and not as cocaine, don't ever snort Xanthan gum. That stuff's gonna seriously slime up in your nasal passages, and you're gonna be in for a world of hurt.
+
+[34:38] Am I right about this? World of hurt. I mean, I have look, I'm not gonna say I haven't as a joke packed hydrocolloids in my nose before, but I would not do that with Xanthan. I definitely would not do it. Anyway, so we ordered a couple of kilos, which is basically a lifetime supply.
+
+[34:52] Uh, because he ordered it directly from the fermenter. That's pretty cool. If you have it, send me the send me the link. I'd love to be able to buy a couple kilos of Xanthan gum at a good price. I think every chef would.
+
+[35:01] What do you think, Nick? Yes. Yes, goes for yes. Uh, and he's using it uh for baking and subbing it out for agar as a thickener and some sauces. Now, uh, before I go any further, uh, Xanthan, I don't really think is a good straight substitute for agar.
+
+[35:14] So if you're using agar as the thickener, what you're most likely doing is setting your sauce into a gel with agar and then blending it into a fluid gel. And uh the problem with using Xanthan to get that thick a texture is that it's gonna get really snotty on you. Like I much prefer to use Xanthan as either as a stabilizer, like you said in a in a baked good or something like that, or just to get that last little bit of body out, right? So the sauce is almost where it wants to be, but it just needs a little more body, and that's when I basically I pull out the xanthan. So I'm usually using it in like the one quarter of a percent up to the maybe like like third of a percent, four tenths of a percent range, in that range.
+
+[35:54] I think once you get uh much higher than that, you really kind of notice the snottiness of a sauce, like unless it's gonna stand still and no one's gonna ever see it jiggle. Um I tend to watch out. So, like a lot of times I'll use Xanthan in conjunction with another product just to help stabilize a little bit. Uh but I very rarely use it as the only thickener in a system, unless, like, you know, you say it's just to stabilize air bubbles for like a baking presentation or something like that. Okay, so uh Max's issue came when he tried to thicken smoked oil.
+
+[36:24] He used two grams per 100 gram of oil and sheared. Um this this is a lot live quote, by the way, so this is not me saying it. He called I'm gonna use this for now. And he calls an immersion blender, the stick blender. He calls it, I think I can say this on air, he calls it a dildo stick, which I think I'm gonna start using from now on.
+
+[36:39] At which point the color became a cool fluorescent red due to the extra air and powder, but after he let it sit, it just settled to the bottom of the container. Then he tried it a bunch of different ways. And and he says, Can uh can he thicken the oil on its own with the cantact cantankerous xanthan gum? Or is it uh purely a case of sugars like water not mixing with oil? Yes, it's purely a case of the uh it's a complex sugar, it's a it's a um you know, long long-chain polysaccharide xanthan gum, but yes, xanthan gum will not interact with uh oil.
+
+[37:09] You can't thicken oil with uh xanthan gum. Uh so here are your options for thickening oil. A lot of people when they thick uh thicken oil, they use uh an emulsifier called mono and diglycerides. Mono and diglycerides is sold unfortunately by some people as glycerin, even though it's not glycerin, it's mono and diglycerides. It's the stuff that's sold as glice by the Ferran Texturas line, it comes in little flakes, and you heat it into the oil, and and if you add enough of it, you can thicken it.
+
+[37:40] Uh and the the problem is is that uh it's a you know it it's the it really melts out when you get it hot, so it's really only useful to thicken like cold preps. But the the problem is also I think that in when you if to get a really really thick, like spreadable oil, you need to like get it up in the range of like 10% mono diglycerides, at which point I think you can taste the mono and di glycerides, and I think it's nasty. Like maybe if you had a higher quality monodiglycerides than I have, it would work, but I I think it's nasty. Another thing you can do is use a little bit of mono diglycerides and then emulsify in some water, and that's going to thicken it just by having like the all the watery crud in it, right? That'll thicken it.
+
+[38:17] And of course, the best way to thicken oil is to do it the opposite way and make mayonnaise. Mayonnaise with smoked oil would be delicious, delicious. Everyone here agree that mayonnaise with smoked oil is a delicious product. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:30] Nastasha doesn't seem convinced, but or maybe she's just not listening. Anyway, but uh the uh anyway, so oh, we have a caller? Caller, you are on the air. Hey there. Hey, it's calling again, actually.
+
+[38:40] I just found a landline and I had a second question. Although I like the auto-tuner effect, that was nice. Yeah, it was definitely slick, but I'm glad uh hear your beautiful voice on the other side. Yeah, yeah. But uh yeah, so this one pertains to things with a string like very astringent flavors.
+
+[38:57] Uh so in particular, I made a walnut liquor, and there's some I don't know. It's still pretty young, but it has some very pungent kind of uh astringentness at the end. The thing that makes your tongue just sort of feel like there's fuzz growing all over it. Right. And so I heard recently from some friends who are sort of like wild forager types, that persimmons, uh American persimmons, are also the skins of them are extremely astringent until the first frost or two, and that seems to kill it and then makes them a little sweeter.
+
+[39:31] So I was wondering if it uh you know much about you know, like uh proaking down astringent flavors and if I could maybe just put this stuff in the freezer and expect that they would drop out or break down or something. This is an extremely interesting question. Uh and um here's the here's the thing. So the uh I've always wanted to try our native persimmons, I never have. I've read about them for years.
+
+[39:55] I haven't had them. But fruits that are astringent, right? So quince, uh persimmons, if you freeze them and then thaw them out, you can lose some of the astringency, presumably because uh during the freezing, which is a dehydration process, the uh the the the kind of astringent whatever it is, tannic astringent stuff basically bonds together with other stuff and loses its astringent properties. That's gotta be what it is. Because also, if you take a persimmon and dry it, as we all know, it loses its astringency, right?
+
+[40:22] And apples that are like overly tannic apples that are very astringent back in the day, because you know, when you sew what uh apple seeds, like a lot of them come up tannic and astringent because they they're just you know, apples don't come true to seed. So a lot of these seedling for uh apple orchards, which were used for cider production, especially in like Pennsylvania Dutch company, they dry out a lot of it and they'd make schnitz, which is the dried apple slices, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and those lose their astringency because they're dried, and so now all of a sudden you can make a pie or something out of the dried apples or make or make you know schnitz and gnepp, whatever you call the ham and schnitz thing, because um the astringency has been modified by the dehydration process. And and you should always think of freezing as a as a dehydration process.
+
+[41:05] Now, in the liquor, I don't know that it's gonna work. The astringency, I assume, from the walnut is coming from the skins of the walnut. I'm assuming. Now, uh you could try freezing it, and if you get a good result, I would love to know that whether or not that does anything. Uh it's going to be hard to freeze unless it's a very low-proof liquor, it's going to be hard to freeze anyway.
+
+[41:24] But you you if you if it if it works, that would be amazing to know. But there's another alternative, which is there are, and I don't know the variety, but Harold McGee wants, you know, you go to Harold McGee's house and he just has a bowl of walnuts on the table. So you're like, hey, when a stash remember this, you're like, hey, these are just walnuts, right? So you start eating, you're like, God damn, this is amazing walnuts. What the hell?
+
+[41:43] And apparently there's like in California a couple strains of walnut that are extremely the skins are extremely low in uh in tannins. And I think they're the they were the red ones, right, Nastash, were they the red ones? Yeah, they're amazing. So you you you might be able to try one of these super fancy walnuts, or if you another thing you can do is maybe crack the walnuts and try to do the liquor with ISI, and maybe you could get, or like, you know, like smash the walnuts to do ISI and maybe you could get enough of the walnut flavor out without getting a lot of the tannin. Although I did it with pecans and I got a quite a bit of tannin in my pecan uh infusion, even in an ISI, which usually doesn't extract uh bitters and tannins that that quickly.
+
+[42:22] Um but you could give that a shot. Uh also, you know, it's it's a real pain to skin uh a walnut, but you could try heating it and rubbing it to at least get a portion of the skin off of it, uh you know, to try and see whether that can um whether that that helps. I don't know um I don't know whether or not we can modify the one that already if you have liquid nitrogen, you could try freezing it. That'll dehydrate it and then let it thaw slowly, and maybe you can get some of the astringency out, but I don't know that it's the same chemical process, so I don't know that it would that would work. Is this the actual you know going to a semi-solid that's gonna be well in in fruits, but I don't know whether or not it's this they're the same molecules in like a nut skin, so I don't know if it's gonna have the same sort of fruit.
+
+[43:05] Not uh not no, not simply a matter of temperature. But it's a very interesting question. I think one that has an acid. I'm interested. So if you find some results, if you could uh email in, tell us what happened.
+
+[43:15] Yeah, we'll do. All right, thanks very much. Yeah, have a good one. All righty. And then uh we have another question in uh and I forget who wrote it because uh Chris.
+
+[43:24] Chris writes in and asks whether he can use clarification on canned uh pineapple and uh and bottled uh or you know, cartoned orange juice. And and specifically you want to know about agar clarification, right? Is that true? Mm hmm. Yeah.
+
+[43:36] Uh yes, it'll work. Uh I haven't done um I mean canned pineapple juice uh I think it will work. I think we've done it. I know I've done orange juice. Uh or in fact, the first application I ever did with quick agar clarification was with orange juice because it was 3 a.m.
+
+[43:50] in the morning. I didn't have time to squeeze anything fresh. So I used orange juice. Orange juice, as long as it's not very acidic, can also be clarified directly through enzymatic. If you hit it with uh Pectenex smash uh XXL or Pectanex uh SPL, if you can directly uh clarify without using agar.
+
+[44:09] Um but yes, you can agar clarify. Um I would assume you can do pineapple juice. Pineapple juice, of course, has um proteolytic uh enzymes in it that would make it difficult to clarify using gelatin, but cooked pineapple juice has been cooked, so you can presumably you can clarify it without any sort of problems. I don't see any reason why you could not clarify uh pineapple juice. Um back to uh Max uh with his question with Xanthan gum and uh oil.
+
+[44:37] He also asks, uh, when am I going to finally admit that I am working for that? Here it is. S S S S S V, the Sofer's Stoffer's Secret Society of Sous Vide. He said, we all know that Sous vide, just like the internet and cable TV, are just fads and will be gone in a year the way Cory Feldman's music career was. Uh I I agree.
+
+[44:57] This stuff's not gonna last, right? None of us here, none of us here think that Sue Vide's here to last, right? That's hilarious. You know, uh and presumably, you know, obviously he's you know making fun because it's gonna be here uh forever. But it's one of those funny things uh uh you know, people always say, oh well, you know, all this new kind of technology is it's you know, it's it's gonna be a fad, it's gonna go away, you know.
+
+[45:18] First of all, they label you as molecular gastronomy, and they're like, that was so like five years ago. It's like, well, first of all, we all hate the term molecular gastronomy. And uh secondly, like this kind of cooking is really growing and growing and growing. You might not hear about it maybe as much as you used to uh in the newspapers and magazines because people already know about it, so there's no hooks to write stories on. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:38] Uh but yeah, so thanks for writing in, Max. More of questions like this. We love them. And I'm gonna leave you with this one. Uh I'm trying to write a uh review of the greatest pomological reference ever to have been produced by human beings called The Fruits of New York.
+
+[45:51] It's like eight volumes, it's many, many, many, many thousands of pages. It's all public access. You know, read it soon on the blog as soon as I can, which maybe is never for you know, given my current track record because I've been posting so slowly. But anyway, uh they wrote uh uh one also called The Vegetables in New York, one of which uh is on um peas, right? So I had to read like I don't know, 200 pages on peas, uh, you know, as part of this review process.
+
+[46:15] And here's what I learned. Uh also if you don't know me, you won't know this, but uh I'm fascinated with mummies. I think you know, mummies, right? Would you say that's true? Mummies.
+
+[46:24] Mummies, yeah, mummies. So uh so there's a huge fad uh about anything uh Egypt related around the time of uh for in the in the mid to late 1800s and also around the time of the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb in the in the early 20s by uh Carter, right? So there's this huge thing about mummies all the time. And they found uh seeds in uh in these in these crypts, right? In the tombs, they would find seeds.
+
+[46:50] And so there were these disreputable producers who uh would say that they had germinated uh seeds from these uh ancient tombs, and then they would sell them. And so there is literally a variety of pea called mummy, right? And by the way, you could actually buy mummy powder because people used to grind up mummies and and as a medicine, like they would just grind up mummies, and it's based on an old it's based on uh uh basically an old mistranslation of some old uh Arabic medical writings. But they would, yeah, they'd grind up, like they there's a huge trade. Like they would just ship like you know, tons of mummies over to Western Europe, grind them up, and you'd buy this dust, this mummy dust, and you would add it to things, and people would think that mummy dust solved all kinds of problems.
+
+[47:29] So there's all these Europeans eating mummy dust. Uh, there was a paint called mummy that was ground up, you grind up mummies, and apparently like it was the best brown paint, and you couldn't get anything that looked quite like mummy. So, like all these artists would have this mummy paint, and you can go to museums and see paintings that were painted with mummies, as well as the mummies themselves, presumably, if you're going to the to the museum. But uh, these guys all this variety of pea is mummy, and they were saying that you know these were the actual Egyptian peas. So these guys uh in New York's uh Geneva extension station up in New York were growing and were basically like, hey, look, these things are exactly like these other peas.
+
+[48:04] So basically it's a huge hoax. Turns out peas can't survive for thousands of years. But uh, you know, an interesting look back uh to early 20th century hoaxes and the mummy pee. This has been Cooking Issues. Uh come back uh visit us next week.
+
+[48:25] Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Cooking Issues. We want to remind you that there's a cabot giveaway going on right now. The New England and New York farm families who own Cabot Cooperative are offering our listeners a chance to win some of the world's best cheddar simply by calling in 718-497-2128, or emailing us at info at heritage radio network.com. What a great way to start the holidays. We'll be picking a winner for the program two weeks from today.
+
+[48:51] Cabot Creamery is a proud supporter of what heritage radio is all about. Vicious fish is hot. Oh, you dirty rat me on this car.
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+[0:13] Welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues. We're here with Nastasha the Lopez Hammer. No, Stasha the Hammer Lopez. Man, that's the first time I've ever messed that up.
+
+[0:23] Coming to you live every Tuesday from noon to 1245. This is the Thanksgiving version of the show. Call in with all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And now to break with tradition, Nastasha is going to read our sponsor's copy.
+
+[0:44] Go ahead. Because she says I'm a jerk. That's why I'm having her do it. Because she says that I'm when I read it, I'm dismissive and a and a and a jerk. So go.
+
+[0:52] So today's today's show is brought to you by Cabot Cheese. For your favorite party recipes, let the great taste of cabbage cheese make them even more special. Award-winning cabbot cheese. 100% of our profits go to New England and New York farm families on the web at Cabot Cheese.com. Nice.
+
+[1:09] Thank you. Nice. Alright. So while we're waiting for uh we're waiting for our first caller, I will uh start him with some of our email questions. Here's one from who is it who wrote this?
+
+[1:19] I can't tell. Here's one. I was hoping Dave could offer some insight for a novice candy maker. This is Steve from Miami. Uh he's trying to make a uh pumpkin maple caramel from a uh from food52.com.
+
+[1:30] And uh he wants to add bourbon to it. Um, but he's worried that that it's gonna affect the texture of the caramel. Um he needs to know whether the whether enough of the bourbon's gonna evaporate out by the time the care the caramel reaches 240 uh Fahrenheit on the thermometer. Okay. Uh he's also curious, can he smoke the caramel as it's cooling down with uh policycy and smoking gum, etc.
+
+[1:52] etc. etc. Okay. So here's my here here's the the good news on this. The the I read the I read the recipe, and the re the recipe is fairly standard for a caramel except for it cooks it to a s a slightly lower temperature, but it has a lot of pumpkin puree in it.
+
+[2:05] So I'm thinking that the pumpkin puree is maybe the reason why it's cooked to a slightly lower temperature than normal caramel. Normal caramel's will be cooked a little bit over 240 Fahrenheit, somewhere I can't remember I've been a long time since I cooked a caramel, but probably in the more in the range of like 248 Fahrenheit, something like that. But the good news is is that if you cook it to the same temperature you're gonna have the same water content. So when you're cooking a candy out right all you're basically doing is ensuring that you have the uh the exact amount of water removed from the system that you want. So once you assuming that all the solids are the same right the pumpkin puree etc etc assuming all the solids are the same and that you know 99% of the alcohol will have evaporated out once you reach those high high temperatures the good news is that you uh will have the same water content in your candy and so your texture will be the same.
+
+[2:58] So my feeling is is that is that if you cook to the same temperatures the addition of the bourbon's not going to make that much difference. That's why the amount of water added to a candy cook at the beginning is really not that important um you know plus or minus a little bit because you're the that it's the temperature that guarantees um that your that your candy's gonna have the right the right texture. And that's the great thing about uh cooking candies right Nastasha yes yeah and actually we've been doing a lot of candy cooking recently you can go to our blog we posted our first video uh what was that our video blog post on uh making dragon's beard candy, which is a hand pulled cotton candy. Maybe we'll talk about that a little later, a little later on in the program. Um the as to the second part about whether or not you can um smoke it with a smoking gun, I'm sure I'm sure that you can.
+
+[3:45] I I have never done it. This the smoking gun uh made by Poly Science is kind of a beefed up version of a uh so here's the history of that. So basically they used to sell little vacuum cleaners for uh like vacuuming out your keyboards. I had one because I was a huge geek, huge dork, right? So you had one too?
+
+[4:05] The little things that clean out the keyboard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, nice, nice. All right. So anyway, so uh I didn't know you were that much of a geek.
+
+[4:11] I love that. It's good to know about Nastasha. Anyway, so um those little vacuum cleaners, and then uh at some point, some enterprising uh pothead was like, hey, if I put the battery in upside down and put pot in the top of it and light it on fire, I don't even have to suck on the pipe to get the smoke out. Right? So hence was born this new thing, basically this kind of automatic uh pot pipe, right?
+
+[4:35] So then uh at some point in the late 90s, some chefs in Europe, I think, you know, the first person I saw was uh one roca that demonstrated at Madrid Fusion in uh I think uh oh oh I don't know, oh five or something like that, 04. And uh basically chefs then started uh using it to inject smoke into things. Um and you know, one of the fame some of the famous presentations were Juca uh took uh a cloche, you know, the little the glass like like pheasant under glass, old school kind of cloche, and then cloche means bell, and then uh and then injected smoke into it, uh like plated the dish on the on the plate part of the cloche, and then injected smoke into the bell part, and then brought it over to the diner, lifted the top, and then the smoke would billow out, it would perfume the area, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They had another famous dish where they had like a basically a slipper-shaped glass bowl that they then like uh sealed a piece of plastic over the top, made a pinprick hole in it, and then injected smoke into it, and then every time your spoon they plated it on top of the plastic, every time your spoon hit, it would throw a smoke ring up. These are some of the famous dishes that are made with it.
+
+[5:38] Anyway, Philip Preston, our good buddy from PolyScience, who makes the circulators, the only circulator we use, uh, immersion circulator, you know, which you should, if you don't know what it is, just check out immersion circulator on the web. They're fantastic. Anyway, so he makes a kind of a beefed up version of uh this you know pot pipe gone uh food that's used to inject smoke in. I have one, I don't really use it that often, so I'm not I'm not I'm not that much of a wealth of knowledge on on that, but it should work. This is a very long way of saying it should work.
+
+[6:07] However, you might be better off if you want a traditional smoked flavor, not just a little hint of smoke, actually smoking it in a cold smoker. So a lot of people have, and you can look it up, modified uh smokers to be able to produce a cold smoke, mainly by removing the smoke source from uh from the you know, away from the chamber and then running the smoke through a pipe that they pack ice or cold water on or run water over. But yes, that should work. And the uh second port well, there's actually two questions. There's one about the caramels, and then any good sous-vide sweet potato ideas.
+
+[6:40] Yes, again, we have some, we've done some work with sous-vide and sweet potatoes. Those of you that I don't know, brand new listeners don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Sous-vide is any sort of cooking in a vacuum bag. Uh, and in particular, sous-vide is useful, um, a useful way to do low temperature cooking, low temperatures where we um control the temperature where we cook very, very accurately, and it lets us do some interesting special effects. And one of them happens to be with sweet potatoes.
+
+[7:05] Okay, so sweet potatoes contain an uh an enzyme, beta amylase. So a lot of things contain uh that you know it's the same beta amylase, similar beta beta amylase to what's used in brewers to convert starch to sugar. And so what happens is is if you keep uh sweet potatoes at a very accurate temperature, let's say uh 60 uh 60 to 65 uh Celsius 60 Celsius probably better or you know no 50 55 what do you think stuzz I have to go look it up let's say 55. I don't want to um I don't want to kill the enzyme and I don't want to uh you know have the you know what strike what I just said this is like not necessarily safe but cut the sweet potato into pieces vac it on high to get rid of the air put it in the you know in a bag maybe with a little oil or not this is not safe forty do it at 40 Celsius right 40 to 45 Celsius uh only for like two two and a half hours and then ramp the temperature to kill anything that you've uh grown during that time because you're still within the safety limit right so uh what that'll do is that will um cause the beta amylase to start breaking the starch down on the inside of that sweet potato and make it even sweeter okay then uh there there's it's interesting I haven't really run the studies we've done it to try and make the sweet potato sweeter before but there's certain enzymes that you actually need to to activate at a at a higher temperature that will eventually destroy the enzyme but in order to actually liberate the enzyme in a way that it can touch the cellular tissues you need to get to a high enough temperature to have that happen. The one I'm thinking of is pectin methylesterase this the potato strengthening and the well any cell wall strengthening enzyme typically you need to circulate in the area of 60 to 65 Celsius to get that to work, but we've had good results with um with sweet potatoes in the 40 to 45 range.
+
+[8:52] Then you ramp the temperature up to almost simmering to cook the potatoes through and sweet potatoes through. And the advantage is cooking them in a bag is that you can get um there's no flavor loss and there's no flavor addition in or out. So you have like you know, nice looking potatoes. They're not kind of roasted, but they have the in common with a roasted potato, the fact that uh it has been watered down by cooking it in a um by cooking it in uh in a liquid, and also it doesn't, it doesn't uh it doesn't look shriveled or anything. So it's very good.
+
+[9:22] Uh sweet potatoes are excellent in the bag. We do it all the time, and you can ramp up the sweetness by by doing a pre-treatment in the bag. And then by the way, when you're at 40, I would then slowly ramp the like 45 Celsius. I would slowly ramp the temperature up to the you know the simmering point to get it to cook. But you it's gonna take a long time to cook in the bag, a lot longer than it would normally take uh to cook in a pot.
+
+[9:44] More like it would take when if you were gonna roast it, because uh it takes a long time to break to actually break down the the structure of the sweet potato in the absence of a lot of excess water, right? So it's gonna take more um more like the time it would take to roast than the time it would take to um than the time it would take to uh boil. And I would definitely you know cut them into smaller pieces. Is it making any dang sense at all? Yes, Dave, yeah.
+
+[10:06] Yeah. And it's good, it's apropos of Thanksgiving. This is the Thanksgiving Thanksgiving uh episode of cooking issues. All right. So Steve, I hope uh hope I answered that question.
+
+[10:16] Um okay. Now uh I have a question from Teddy DeVico uh and uh teenchef Teddy dot blogspot.com. And he says, uh I recently had an awesome meal at WD50. WD50 is my brother-in-law's restaurant in uh in downtown New York, actually two blocks from my house. And uh, you know, I love I love Wiley, I love his cooking.
+
+[10:37] Uh and uh Teddy says, Wiley uses transglutaminase a lot in his food, shrimp noodles, cold-fried chicken, etc. Is it possible to glue skins to pro skin to proteins? For example, uh, could you take the skin off the back of a chicken and then wrap it around the breast so that the chicken skin would be wrapped around the whole breast. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, Teddy.
+
+[10:55] That is more than possible. Uh that is uh what we do basically every day, you know. Uh not every day, but whenever we cook with meat, we're often doing stuff like that. So for those of you that don't know, transglutaminase is an enzyme that glues uh different proteins together. It can glue any any protein together.
+
+[11:10] It's fantastic, it's all natural, it's a miracle. I love it. Anyway, uh you sprinkle it on like it's powdered sugar, you put the two pieces of meat together that you want to glue together, you let it sit four hours, done. Done. Beautiful.
+
+[11:21] And it's seriously, it's fantastic stuff. Uh, but we don't just glue uh chicken skins to chickens, we glue chicken skins to steaks, right? So we make like a chicken fried steak. You like that, right, Stas? Yeah, it's good stuff.
+
+[11:35] Uh the uh and so with that, like we take a skirt steak and we glue chicken uh skin to it, let it sit four hours, then we can fry it, and it has the skin of a chicken, which is like one of God's great creations, chicken skin, right? Yeah, chicken skin's delicious. And uh, but you know, the inside of skirt steak, which is also delicious. Uh so yes, you can use it for a lot of stuff. You can actually buy it.
+
+[11:55] Um it's not cheap. It's uh it's like eighty dollars for a kilo, but if you store it in the freezer, it you know, they say six months, but really I've I've used it uh longer than a year, and it's that'll glue a lot, a lot of meat together. When you buy your uh transglutaminase, and by the way, the company is a Ginamoto that sells it, and the brand name is uh Activa. And you're gonna want to get Activa RM from a Ginamoto. You can buy it directly from Aginamoto at Aji Foods USA.
+
+[12:24] Or I think uh I think Le Sanctuaire might sell it, and I think Terra Spice might sell it as well online. Uh and you get it, store it in your freezer, and then uh make sure that it always goes back to the freezer. That's that's how you you know are gonna keep it okay. You wanna do all your gluing in 20 minutes, and if you need to test it, put it on a piece of raw meat, and it should smell a little bit like a wet dog or a wet wool sweater, and that smell will go away. I've never been able to detect that uh when I'm when I'm eating it.
+
+[12:50] It's just showing you that the reaction's happening. It's a good way to test out your meat glue. For more information on transglutaminase, please go to our blog, cookingissues.com, click on the primers link at the top, and go to what is it called, Staszi? Is called transglutaminase or meat glue? It's called transglutaminates and in parentheses meat glue.
+
+[13:07] Oh, nice. All right, so double action. So anyway, so go to see the primer section. We have a lot, including like, you know, my ex I'm not gonna say exhaustive, I'll say exhausting. It exhausted me anyway.
+
+[13:18] Research on safety of transglutaminase and uh and whatnot. So uh go go check that out. Um let's take a break. Take a break. Go to our first commercial break.
+
+[13:28] Call in all your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718 497-2128 cooking issues. Thanks so much, Bone Brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right.
+
+[13:43] Yeah, how you feel, fella? Head! Sure getting down. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[14:01] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We've gotta take your high. Alright. Yeah, let's do it again.
+
+[14:22] We gotta take the high. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow about two cores. And then I want to wave in. Alright, alright.
+
+[14:41] I'm gonna get that fella with a low hole on a little bit. Welcome back to Cooking Issues coming to you live. Call on your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We got an interesting uh email in from Steve, uh, who basically just sent us some information.
+
+[14:59] Not really the question, but I thought it would be interesting. Uh it's ba it I'm interested in microwaves. So you're interested in microwave, Styles? Not really. Not really.
+
+[15:07] I am. Well, you know, I'm interested in almost everything. But uh, you know, back when I was a kid, I used the microwave mainly to uh melt butter and to blow up light bulbs. You know, because that's those are the two things like blow up eggs, blow up light bulbs, melt chocolate, melt butter. Um, but you know, thanks to the internet, there's a whole bunch of uh people out there doing very, very interesting things with microwaves.
+
+[15:29] And Steve points out that if you if you search uh um neon lamp, I think it's neon lamp, yeah, neon lamp microwave. There's these guys in Holland who have I think Holland, who have a series of videos on how to visualize the patterns of energy in a microwave by basically using a piece of foam core that they stuck a bunch of tiny neon lamps in, and then you put it in the in the oven, and it's like a grid, and you can see the pattern of light that's formed. And the pattern of light, the intensity of the light, is basically showing you the intensity of the uh of the wave in that particular of the magnetic of the uh electromagnetic waves, the microwaves in that in that area. And then they have a couple videos where they show like they put some water in, and they can see how the um how the the placing a load, the water is basically a load absorbing the microwaves, affects uh how the uh the radiation is being distributed in the rest of the in of the microwave. And it's really quite interesting.
+
+[16:21] They show some in the in the, you know, they they have the thing in the top, they have it in the bottom, they have it in the middle, they have it spinning, and it and it better than any other technique I've seen, including the putting the flour in and burning it and things like that, really shows in real time uh what the um what the pattern of energy is. Because you know, one of the big downfalls of the microwave is the unevenness of the energy absorption in it. And the fact that if you put something in, it changes the it changes the cooking characteristics of the entire oven cavity. That's basically the big drawback of uh microwave. Uh, you know, that and for instance, like you know, you have some weird phenomenon, like if if something starts to char in a microwave or if there's things on it that are charred already, they preferentially uh preferentially absorb uh microwave energy, like the carbonized areas do, and then get even hotter and then catch on fire, things like that.
+
+[17:06] I mean, there are some fun things about microwaves. But anyway, so that's a very uh interesting uh experiment, and it's made me, for the next time we do the Harold McGee class, it's made me think that uh, you know, dang, uh, I'm gonna do this, but I'm gonna I don't want to go crazy with it. I wanna uh don't do this. Don't like don't don't ever do this. But the reason the reason the hole size, there's there's a mesh, right, in the front of your microwave uh and that you can kind of see through, right?
+
+[17:34] And the reason it's not bigger than that is is that uh that mesh is designed such that the microwave um which has a uh you know a wavelength much larger than that hole can't propagate at all through that mesh, right? Really, you know, they could make it a little bit bigger, but they want it to be 100% safe. So even so if you put your eyeball against the door of the microwave, which you know my you know, my mom always told me not to do, it's not gonna fry out, fry out your eye. But if you stayed back on it a little bit, you could have a bigger hole like pencil size, right? So don't ever do this.
+
+[18:07] But I'm thinking like you could put like a slightly bigger hole and I could put an armature in that I could actually manipulate the load on the inside, have like a series of lamps on the inside, and then manipulate a load so you can really see by moving the load around in real time what was happening. What do you think, Stash? She's shaking your head. No, Dave, no. Well, I mean, I can do it.
+
+[18:24] I don't want anyone else to do it, but I'm not gonna fry myself. Yeah. I mean, look, don't ever experiment with microwave ohms. Seriously, don't. But like I I will.
+
+[18:32] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't I don't recommend you do it. But for the next time we do the McGee class, I mean I've all of a sudden, like seeing this, seeing this uh these posts, which by the way, only have like 13 views.
+
+[18:43] It's crazy. Yeah, you should go look at them. They're really cool. It's like some of the best visualization of microwaves I've seen. Did you ever talk about your dangerous centrifuge thing?
+
+[18:51] Which which dangerous centrifuge? When you put the glass on top and ran it? No, no, we haven't posted that yet. Well, I'll talk about that one sec. I got a little more on microwave.
+
+[18:58] So Steve did a really interesting thing when he was uh an undergrad in um uh physics undergrad, his professor asked him if asked the whole class, I guess, could you measure any fundamental constants, uh physical constants, in in your kitchen? And so he came up with a fun way to measure the speed of light. So microwaves have a known uh frequency, right? Your microwave oven operates at a known frequency. It's I forget what it is, it's something like 2.4 gigahertz or something like that.
+
+[19:25] You know, you know, in that area, too, you know, 2.4 gigahertz, I think. Memory. This is my memory, doing it from memory. So uh what he did was he stuck a bar of chocolate, a big like a slab, a sheet like a bar of chocolate into the microwave and then turned it on uh on high, right? So you we like you I think it was on high, because you need to establish a standing wave.
+
+[19:46] Has to be a standing wave pattern. And then looked to see uh exactly when the surface started to melt a little bit on the on the bar, pulled it out and measured the distance between the uh the two points of melting in the grid. There's like a grid where it's melted. And then uh using that to calculate um the high power regions, right? So that's each high power region is going to be half of a wavelength, multiply it by two, and then you have the the you know you can calculate if you know how many cycles per second it is and you know how long the wavelength is right then you can calculate the speed of light.
+
+[20:22] So he was able to calculate the speed of light and he got within three percent uh of the correct answer using a regular household ruler, a microwave and a bar of chocolate. Wow. That's another cool microwave trick, huh? That is cool. That's c that's a cool trick Steve.
+
+[20:35] I like that. That's good thinking. And plus I'm sure you made some sort of delicious brownie with the chocolate when you were done at least that's what I would do. That's what I seriously that's all I used to use the microwave for besides blowing up light bulbs and and and eggs was melting chocolate for brownies. But um so anyway so Nastasha said have I talked about my dangerous centrifuge practices.
+
+[20:53] You are into dangerous things. So it's like I'm not into dangerous no, but you know and you say you do it alone but it's like hey I'm gonna run the centrifuge open. Stand behind me and film it. And if it's a good thing, it's not crazy. Listen, we run.
+
+[21:05] Or we'll be in like the National Fruit Collection, and you'll say, if my throat closes up, the epipins here just stab it into me. Liz I don't want to give people the wrong impression. I'm pro safety here. Like, seriously. I'm pro-safety.
+
+[21:17] Um, but sometimes I will do things that some people might consider unsafe, but I feel like I have a hand a handle on. So centrifuges, right? You're not supposed to run them open ever because um just not come on, it's a bad idea. Like, you know, a lot of force involved. If the if the okay a lot of centrifuge parts are made of aluminum, aluminum tends to fatigue.
+
+[21:38] At any minute, if something goes wrong, a bucket could blow out. And if a bu uh a centrifuge is something that separates things based on density, the one I have, the couple of the ones I have have swinging bucket rotors, which means it's basically like holding a paint pail on the end of a stick and spinning it at 4,000 RPM, generating 4,000 times the force of gravity, right? So at these kind of speeds, every gram is equal to about four kilograms. So they use aluminum because it's lightweight, and so you can spin it a lot faster, otherwise the mass would be too high and you wouldn't be able to spin it. Problem is aluminum fatigues and it can be unpredictable and and basically just give out on you at any moment, as any of you may have known.
+
+[22:14] Like, you know, with you know, if you've ever had an incident with an aluminum bicycle, most aluminum bicycles are great. My bicycle is made out of aluminum, nothing against aluminum bicycles. Okay, so uh the point is is that if one of these things goes south, the thing like you know, it can go way far south. Now that the one I'm using is safe as long as it's not like you're not thwarting any of the safety mechanisms. Unfortunately, I know how to thwart all the safety mechanisms, so I can run it with the lid open, which you should never do.
+
+[22:41] So Nastasha's saying it's unsafe, but I want to take a video of the thing while it's running. By the way, there is a centrifuge that's made by Lab Conco called a centrovap that is made with a clear top that we can run, and it comes with a stroboscope so you can see it running while it's going, but it only does very small samples. But maybe we can borrow one or use it to do filming. Anyway, I bought uh a half inch thick piece of um, you know, really tough, I mean it's not quite bulletproof at only a half inch, but like half inch thick um Lexan. And then I used, you know, like 4,000 pound rated uh ratchet come-alongs to to ratchet it down to this top of the centrifuge after I had defeated the safety so I could run it with the lid open.
+
+[23:19] And we took some videos of the centrifuge running, and I used a stroboscope, you know, with like a strobe that with a variable speed on it so that I could like kind of freeze the buckets when we're looking at them. So maybe sometime we'll we'll do a video. What do you think, Stas? Alright, alright, alright, we'll do it. Basically, this is just a long involved way for Nastasha to have you get off my butt and do some more do some more work for the bug.
+
+[23:45] The videos are actually easier to put up on the blog than uh than writing. I you know, writing is such a pain in the behind. But um anyway. So uh so there you have it. That's uh centrifuge and safety.
+
+[23:56] But I don't want like like I said, I don't want any of you guys uh having the impression out there that I do things that are that are unsafe. I wouldn't that's not that's not the case. All right. So now and uh I know we're gonna have to take a break in a couple of minutes, uh, but we're gonna start our uh turkey Thanksgiving turkey extravaganza set of notes. So we have uh uh a nice uh note in from um uh Ken uh Ingber uh from Citroën Mass.
+
+[24:26] Is that how you pronounce Citroën? Citroate Mass? I think so. But he grew up in in Brooklyn, and his question is, uh, why is he still alive after eating his mom's turkey? All right.
+
+[24:36] So his mom, right, and I I'll just read it, right? So uh basically, uh he loved, by the way, his mom's Thanksgiving turkey, right? So his mom slathered the turkey with garlic. Uh this is his quote. Mom slathered the turkey with garlic a couple days before Thanksgiving, covered it with aluminum foil, and kept it on the enclosed back porch.
+
+[24:55] This is New York City in the 50s and 60s. Some years uh uh some years we had snow, but many of those years I would play touch football on the street wearing a t-shirt. Garlic may have had some minor uh antimicrobial properties, which it does, but could that overcome sitting in a climate of 50 degrees for two days? And he in Perenzi goes, I cannot be absolutely sure, but I don't think that mom started with a frozen bird. Uh the fact that none of us ever got sick from the turkey, the fact is none of us ever got sick from the turkey.
+
+[25:19] As a matter of fact, mom's turkey dinner was renowned in the family, eagerly anticipated each year before the event, and then finally recalled afterwards by as many as twenty-five people at a sitting. With all that, I still ask, why am I still alive? It's an excellent question, Ken. I'm glad that you are uh still alive. Uh, but I did a little bit of uh a little bit of research on this, uh, but the the the first thing that pops into my head is uh I wonder whether your mom also put some salt on the outside of the bird as well as garlic.
+
+[25:47] Um, right? I mean, so she put some all like garlic is antimicrobial and uh salt on the outside of the bird would be uh would also help, which she probably did, even if she didn't start with a frozen bird. Uh the only thing I'm curious about is the aluminum foil, because I think what would stop kind of the rotting would be kind of good airflow in a cool environment, right? So it's actually gonna take quite a while for something to spoil at 50 degrees, let's say it's fifty degrees. It it would take a while for something to spoil out in those kind of uh temperatures, especially because um if the cavity, right, which is contaminated, and if the outside of the bird, which is contaminated, is exposed to uh airflow, relatively dry airflow.
+
+[26:28] See, the one thing is is that in in and we're in New York, at this part of time of year in New York, even if it's not very cold, it's also not very humid. So there's not a lot of moisture. So I would assume that you would get basically a pellicle, sort of dry coating that would form on the outside of the bird uh and on the inside cavity. And that to a to a good extent would help prevent some of these spoilage bacteria from growing, right? On its own.
+
+[26:53] The garlic would also help uh prevent some spoilers' bacteria. The inside of the muscle, assuming that the butchering is done properly, is relatively sterile, right? And so it's not going to have a lot of bacteria growing. So as long as it's not really warm and really moist, I'm not surprised, frankly, that it didn't um didn't spoil. Now, the the food safety people are going to go crazy on me here, but listen, listen, if you look back in the day, right, when you hunted birds, what did you do?
+
+[27:20] You hung them up, right? So in the in the old days, when you go hunting, and and a lot of the hunting season for these kind of birds would start in the fall, right? And then uh continue continues through the the winter, but in the fall, you would in relatively cool weather like this, you would hang birds to age. And what would happen during this hanging period, right, whether you drew it or not, you know, meet you know, gut it or not, is the meat would become more tender, especially on something like you know, a wild bird that's going to be tough and stringy, um, the the hanging it is gonna at those slightly higher temperatures, like 50s or so, is gonna encourage the enzymes in the meat to break uh down the meat a little bit and to stop it from being so tough, and so it and also probably inf improve the flavor. So this is a time honored technique.
+
+[28:03] I was reading actually like Texas Hunters magazine from like 2004 or something, and they they you know they were saying, why don't we go back to to aging and hanging meats? But I was not able to find anyone who's done uh I didn't look too much. I mean I'd like to look more because I'm kind of interested in the subject, but I was not able to find uh any scientific studies on uh the microbiology of hanging uh hanging game, you know what I mean? So I know that uh you know the the hunters they recommend that if you shoot something that you you know if it's been hit really hard with shot and the shot penetrates the intestines, right? Then you can't really hang it for too long because you've contaminated the meat with stuff that's that's nasty.
+
+[28:43] But a relatively well killed animal, right? Uh poultry especially, you know, would be would be hung for a while, and in fact, most people don't die. And you know, just to go even further, I mean, it's not necessarily uh it's a it's a bad it's a it's a specious argument, right, to say that that just because I haven't died doing something, for instance, let's say I cross the street every day and don't look, right? Just because I'm not dead doesn't make it a safe practice, but on the other hand, uh techniques like this that go back, you know, since time you know from time immemorial, hanging hanging birds out, um, and not like this is exactly the same because it's a you know, it's uh it's you know a bird that you got from the supermarket or from wherever, um, you know, sometimes these old practices they have validity and they just haven't been uh validated yet by through scientific research. Or maybe it has.
+
+[29:32] I mean, I haven't done uh enough research, but a lot of people, especially with food safety, tend to argue on the extreme side of 100% safety. So there's many things that are forbidden by food codes and food regulations that would be safe that just haven't been adequately studied. So, you know, one way to get things uh, and so I'll give you some more examples. Like you go to Chinatown uh and you see all the meat hanging in the window, right? And that stuff's in the danger zone for a long time, right?
+
+[30:01] So why is that safe? Um well, the the meat's already been cooked, so presumably the bacteria on the inside, with the exception of spores, has been knocked out by the cooking process. Then it's hanging, right, in a relatively warm environment, but it's painted with a shellac of stuff that has a very low water activity, right? You see how they're all glazed, all that meat in the window is glazed or has a dry, fried, crispy surface on the outside. And because there's no uh that there's not a lot of water on the outside, which is where bacteria would be infiltrating, right, from the outside, because they're not going to come from the inside.
+
+[30:32] You killed all those. Um, but because of that, um, there's not a really good place for bacteria to start growing. And so you don't die. And that's why you can go to Chinatown, get one of those ducks that's been hanging in the window all day and eat it without dying, right? Anyway, so uh, you know, I uh the only thing that confuses me a little bit is the aluminum foil because I would think that you might be able to like harbor some bacteria where the aluminum foil is touching the bird because um because there you you wouldn't be dry enough, you might have like a moist environment that could cause some problems.
+
+[31:03] But also most spoilage bacteria you'd be able to smell. So if the turkey started to go south on you, you'd probably know it. You know what I mean? Anyway, excellent question. And uh, you know, my family would never eat it if I tried that technique, but uh apparently it made for a delicious Thanksgiving turkey.
+
+[31:18] And we're gonna go to a break, but more on Thanksgiving turkeys when we come back. Call your questions to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You know what? When I hear a groove like this groove. Oh, baby.
+
+[32:28] Yeah. Yeah. Someone got a groove like this. You know. No.
+
+[32:47] I need to grip. Grip. Need to grip. You know. I've a green bread job.
+
+[33:09] You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh, call in all your questions. We're gonna be here for another 15 minutes or so to seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. So we uh we wrapped up the last segment talking about uh turkey safety and particularly uh, you know, early uh fifth fifties and 60s Brooklyn garlic sitting on the porch turkey.
+
+[33:29] Uh which is a very interesting question. Uh but now I'm gonna turn to the kind of perennial question that people say is what about stuffing the turkey, right? So all the food safety sources, they tell you not to stuff your turkey beforehand. Uh and the reason is is because uh they're worried that you're not gonna get the inside of the stuffing up to temperature in time, right? Or that you're not gonna cook the stuffing at all to the proper temperature, and that you're gonna have possibly an unsafe situation.
+
+[33:57] The other thing that could theoretically happen is that stuff could grow in the stuffing during the time while it's heating up because it takes a long time to heat up, right, to get to the center. And so you're apt to increase your chances for uh having a serious foodborne illness coming out of your turkey. Now, uh here are my feelings on that. If you stuff a bird, right, you're drastically increasing the amount of time it's gonna take to cook the bird because all of a sudden, like, you know, it's it's become a lot a lot bigger thing. So if heat can get into the cavity if it's open, it's gonna roast a lot quicker because you have a lot fewer inches of meat to go through.
+
+[34:33] And doubling the number of inches that something has to go through to get up to temperature radically, radically, radically increases the amount of time it takes to cook it, right? So, first of all, from just from a um a time management standpoint, it takes a long, long time to cook a turkey with stuffing in it. So you're you're apt to not hit a high enough internal temperature to have the stuffing be safe. So they recommend that you don't uh that you don't do it, right? And it's true, uh, you know, I don't like to put my bird in like you know, some people who shall remain name is Nastasha.
+
+[35:04] That's not me, it's my mom. All right, all right. But put the bird in at like the beginning of the day and then like take a like a like a burnt cinder out at dinner time and you know, try to crack it with a hammer and serve it to people. Like that's not how I'm into doing turkeys. Anyway, but um, you know, and and there are uh recipes out there, so the way to really do this, right, is to kind of pre-cook your stuffing a little bit and then shove it into your bird, and this is a good alternative, but it's kind of unsatisfying because you're gonna be cooking the stuffing before you put it in the bird, and that's no good.
+
+[35:32] But if you have a circulator, here's my Thanksgiving stuff stuffing tip for you, my my listeners who have uh immersion circulators. Uh, make your stuffing beforehand, right? Put it in a Ziploc bag. You know, don't be too mean to it, but like, you know, put it in a Ziploc bag and you know, make it fairly compressed, right? And circulate it at 57 Celsius for like an hour, right?
+
+[35:56] Before you're gonna put it into the turkey. Now, when I say 57, I'm assuming that you're keeping your packs of uh stuff look like thinner than about an inch, right? Your Ziploc bags are about only about an inch thick or less. So 57 for like an hour, an hour and 20 minutes, right? Like that, that should kill almost anything in that stuffing, right?
+
+[36:14] Plus, plus, now that stuffing is at 57 degrees Celsius. You could actually go a little higher, like 58, 60. So but 57 is good, and I'll tell you why. There's nothing in most stuffing mixtures, unless you're doing an oyster stuffing or you're doing a like uh, I don't know, like a like a roast beef stuffing. There's nothing in there that is gonna get damaged by 57 degrees Celsius, right?
+
+[36:35] So the binder in most stuffing mixes is gonna be eggs, right? Eggs uh are basically raw when cooked to 57 for the length of time that we're that we're talking about. Raw but pasteurized, right? Um uh bread is gonna be relatively unaffected by these temperatures. Cook sausage, unaffected by these temperatures.
+
+[36:53] Things like celery, like onions that you've swept sweated out, all the textures and tastes of that stuff are gonna be pretty much not affected by 57 Celsius. So, and that's like what, 135 degrees Fahrenheit, somewhere in that range, right? So, uh medium rare for a steak. So you you circulate it for like an hour, hour and a half, up to two hours or so in a Ziploc bag, right? And now you have hot stuffing, right?
+
+[37:16] So now it's time to cook the bird. So you have the bird cavity, salt out the inside, you know, put salt over the inside, which is also gonna help kill some of the bacteria on the inside, blah, blah, blah, make it taste good, yada yada. And then uh take uh like uh a clean pair of dishwashing gloves, nice thick gloves that you know you can hold something that's 57 for a while without burning, and stuff the bird with the hot stuffing, like directly out of the ziplocks, put it out of the circulator, stuff stuff the bird with the hot stuffing. Now the stuffing is safe, right? And you know, you're gonna be cooking it like up to the thing, and it's also gonna give the bird a jump start on cooking, right?
+
+[37:49] What's so funny? What? Nastash is having some sort of lew thought about stuffing hot stuffing. No, no, it's just you saying the bird. That's it.
+
+[37:57] Oh, oh, I did anyway. Okay. So anyway, so you stuff it up with this stuff, and then uh you're giving a jump start, so now the turkey's gonna cook faster. It's gonna cook uh like uh on the insides, it's gonna get a jump start. So it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be a better bird all around.
+
+[38:11] I haven't had time to test it, but I think that the technique in general is a good one and is gonna give you a better, more even cooked uh turkey. So, anyway, that's my Thanksgiving tip for you folks out there. Now, on to my Thanksgiving, right? So uh for readers of the blog uh might know if you read last year, we uh uh developed a technique for cooking turkeys that involved uh boning glove boning, where you basically turn the turkey inside out and uh you turn a turkey inside out, rip out all the bones, and you don't cut it. So it's like basic, it's called glove boning, but it's basically like reaching into a turkey and ripping its its bones out and leaving it whole.
+
+[38:51] And so you have this basically this turkey sack, right? And I also take out the bones of the of the legs. And the reason I do this is because I want to speed up the rate at which it cooks, right? Because if it turns out if you cook a turkey for a long time at low temperature in an immersion circulator, that the meat can get kind of fibery, even if it's not overcooked. So I want to keep the cook time down to about two hours.
+
+[39:11] So I remove the bones because that's extra mass, right? Then I take out the bones in the legs, because the legs want to cook to a higher temperature than the breast, right? Right? Right, right, right. So the legs you're gonna want to cook to about 66 Celsius in that range, and the uh and the breasts you're gonna want to cook to about 64, 65 Celsius.
+
+[39:28] Also, if the legs take too long to cook, especially at these low temperatures where you're not gonna overcook the hell out of them, the redness by the where the bones are never goes away. So you gotta cook fast. So, what we do is is you take aluminum, I make an aluminum skeleton and I pump hot oil through the aluminum skeleton to cook it from the inside out for like an hour or something before I drop it into the rest of the hot fat and then cook the whole thing at the um at the slightly lower temperature. So I give the legs a jump start, I cook them through at 65, because they can also cook a lot longer than the breast without turning kind of fibery. Then I drop the whole bird into the thing, we cook the whole thing through in butter, pick it up, cool it down, and then when it comes Thanksgiving time, we just like spray hot you know fat over it, you know, like crisp it up with a fryer, serve out a bird, delicious, awesome.
+
+[40:11] Also, it has no bones, so you can just slice it. Oh, I forgot. You s we put aluminum foil into the cavity to keep it puffed up during the cooking, otherwise it's you know a nightmare. Also, I use two circulators so that I can cook the inside and the outside at once, you know, whatever. I'm uh, you know, I go, you know, whatever.
+
+[40:27] I I take it to the extreme, but I like a good bird. So this year, and uh the the other thing about it is I can cook a giant turkey like this. So the first time I did it, I did it with like a 30-pound turkey. Uh this time, uh this year I'm cooking a smaller turkey. I'm cooking a heritage breed turkey.
+
+[40:41] I'm actually cooking one from Heritage Foods, the uh, you know, the the patrons of this fine radio network. And uh I'm cooking one of their Narragansett birds. So a Narraganset is an old breed that um is derived from a cross between an old uh commercials, Norfolk something, I think, and wild uh you know, indigenous turkeys from it comes from Rhode Island from the Rhode Island area. These turkeys, by the way, literally roam around on the houses, like around the lawns in in Westchester where my parents live, where my you know, my mom and my stepfather live. And we see them all the time.
+
+[41:09] My stepfather, so divorced from the idea of like food coming from anything other than the supermarket that we saw uh like a what do you call it? Like a gaggle of of wild turkeys running across the lawn one day, and he looks, he goes, Look, fresh turkeys. I'm like, fresh, they're alive. What do you mean? Anyway, so uh so like this Narragansett turkey is a heritage breed.
+
+[41:29] Uh, this one is the one I have is about uh 16 pounds or so, and uh so it's already been boned inside and out, and as soon as we get back to I mean they're sold out this year anyway, so you can't get it. It's too late. It's too late. This is from next year that you should be getting a heritage turkey. Uh there, you know, some people they want to know why why it costs so much, but these are you know, these turkeys are raised by kind of small farmers and they're they're processed you know nicely, and then um, you know, they're they're shipped to you, they're harder to grow, and they're done in smaller numbers, and you know, you're only doing it once a year, so you know, spend the extra money on your don't you don't you love your family?
+
+[42:06] Anyway, so uh so we're cooking this Narraganset uh this bird, and I'll report back uh hopefully next week because I'm assuming it's gonna be incredibly delicious. Because the meat that they they choose these breeds not just because their heritage, but because the meat quality, they're raised not just because they grow fast or have a high what they what's called feed conversion ratio, where they can basically turn, you know, they can produce X number of pounds of turkey for X number of pounds of grain. These breeds are chosen, presumably because the meat tastes better. So uh, you know, I am I'm gonna put as soon as I get back to work today, I'm shoving the aluminum skeleton into this one, and you can read about the old post online. But anyway, so I'm shoving the aluminum skeleton in, we're gonna cook it up.
+
+[42:43] I'm gonna take it up to uh Westchester and uh we will report back uh next week, right? Yeah. Okay, so uh I'll you know end with a a couple of a couple of things. Uh here's one. So uh I did uh an article for cookingissues uh dot com uh about eating weird meats, popular science then approached me and said, We want to, you know, can you write a modified version of that for our blog?
+
+[43:09] I was like, sure, yeah, right? I like popular science. Popular science has been very kind to me in the past, printed, you know, uh a really uh Ted Allen, you know, the food network star wrote something there about me, very nice. And um uh, you know, we like popular science, but whoever edited the piece kind of sexed it up a little bit and made me sound kind of like a bloodthirsty animal hating monster a little bit, right? Yeah, right?
+
+[43:33] But and I didn't even know it. So all of a sudden I start getting all these negative comments on the blog, which I've never had before, and then Nastasha goes and looks at at the actual popular science website, and there's literally someone there who threatened to kidnap me, fatten me up, not necessary, by the way. Fattening me up, not necessary. And then uh, you know, so it could save them some time, right? They they thought they'd have to spend an extra week to fatten me up.
+
+[43:58] Totally unnecessary. Uh and um kill me and then serve me to his dog, right? Serve me to his dog. And and here's my question, right? Your dog's a meat eater.
+
+[44:11] Why aren't you mad at your dog? Right? Anyway. Uh I mean, that's crazy, right? Yeah.
+
+[44:21] Here's the thing. I have so many people. Look, I like I I am not a cruel, heartless bastard, right? I mean, I am, but not about that. Not about the animals.
+
+[44:30] You know, I get all these people writing in about uh these weird animals that we're eating, saying that, you know, we're terrible people, they're sickened, like, especially like there's a picture of a whole cooked raccoon on the on the on our blog, right? And they're like, well, that that whole raccoon is revolting. Here's the thing. Well, it looks like a small child. Well, I hope your child doesn't look like a cooked raccoon, Stasi.
+
+[44:52] You know what I'm saying? My point is this, right? They would prefer that meat eaters have no idea that they were eating an animal. They would prefer that everything be packaged so that you could kill animals indiscriminately and never know that there was an animal involved at all, right? So when a meat eater actually is honest is like, here is a whole animal that we have cooked and eaten, like that's revolting to them.
+
+[45:14] Crazy, right? Yeah. Not logical. People are illogical, you know. And plus, and we'll end on this one.
+
+[45:21] Uh well, we'll end on Happy Thanksgiving. But we'll end we'll end on this one, right? Like, how is the life of a raccoon more august, more worthwhile than the life of a pig, which is clearly a smarter animal, just more delicious. The pigs only is just the picture, though. The picture, yeah.
+
+[45:40] Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I'm not a believer that stuff that you do should be hidden behind closed doors. I'm just don't believe that. Anyway, uh, happy Thanksgiving to you and your you and your family, you and your own, from cooking issues in the Heritage Radio Network. We'll talk to you next week. The New England and New York farm families who own Cabot Cooperative are offering listeners a chance to win some of the world's best cheddar simply by calling in to our network at 718-497-2128 or emailing us at info at heritageradio network.com.
+
+[46:16] What a great way to start the holidays. We'll be picking a winner for the program one week from today. Cabot Creamery is a proud supporter of what heritage radio is all about. You got my head all twisted, and I just can't get it straight.
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+[0:13] Welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here with Mistacha the Hammer Lopez, the person who keeps the wheels on the truck. Call in all of your questions, cooking related or not. Well, probably cooking related, technology related or not. Although we will we will take all questions.
+
+[0:29] Yeah, it doesn't yeah, right. Today's today's show isn't just cooking issues, it's issues in general. Uh, you know, especially coming off the holiday weekend. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:38] That's 718 uh 497-2128. We're gonna be here live for another 45 minutes or so. Today's show is brought to you by 360 Cookware. 360 Cookware is top of the line, stainless steel cookware that is made in America in the greenest cookware manufacturing facility in the country. It can be used to make all of your favorite recipes, but it also gives the option to cook using vapor technology, which creates a seal that surrounds food with intense heat, locking in vitamins, moisture, and flavor without added oil, fat, or excess water.
+
+[1:05] Visit our website at 360cookware.com for more information. That's 360cookware.com. Okay, now. All right. So uh while we're waiting for that phone call, uh let's start in on the Thanksgiving and the uh the Heritage Turkey, the uh the Narragansett.
+
+[1:20] Um listened last week. Uh we uh received a heritage breed Narragansett turkey from uh Heritage uh Heritage Foods, and uh I cooked it using a technique we have a caller, so I'll go back into it in a minute, but suffice it to say, best damn turkey I've ever made in my whole life. So good, in fact, so good that uh uh no one was able to take a picture of it before it was completely gone. Swear to god, like I've never not had turkey leftovers the next day. We didn't even have that many people.
+
+[1:46] Turkey was obliterated. Obliterated. Gone. Anyway, okay, so we have a caller. Caller, you were on the air.
+
+[1:54] Hello. Oh, we lost our collar. Hello? Hello, hey, how are you doing? I'm doing fine.
+
+[2:01] I'm calling from California. And I actually have a question about your hydrocolloid course coming up in January. Alrighty. I'm trying to decide whether it's worth $1,500 for the course plus the flight across country and three nights in a hotel room. Right.
+
+[2:15] Well, so hopefully you'll also eat at some good restaurants while you're here. One of the benefits of being in New York. I do that every year, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
+
+[2:22] So you're asking me to sell the class. Okay. Exactly. All right. Well, here's what here's what I hydrocolloids.
+
+[2:29] First of all, you know, I'm a little bit biased because I teach the class. Uh, you know, along with uh Nils Noran, the VP of Culinary uh Culinary Arts, I guess is his title over there. Um, it's you know, I realize that the classes can be somewhat pricey, and but there's a whole lot of work that goes into it. And whether or not it's worthwhile for you depends a lot on you. Hydrocolloids is a it's a difficult subject to teach because it invariably in the class we get people with a wide range of previous uh previous knowledge, previous experience, and also goals, right?
+
+[3:05] So when you're teaching something like low temperature sous vide cooking, uh, you know, pretty much everyone's goals are fairly similar, and it's it's a matter of just showing people what's possible within the realm within the context of cooking low temperature. You know, this is what we can do with different kinds of proteins at different times with different treatments, this is what we can do with uh, you know, uh vegetables, various technologies, ways to do things. And so, like it's very focused, and everyone is there pretty much with the same goal in mind. Hydrocolloids is such a wide open field that um we basically we have to hit, there's certain things we have to hit, right? Because some people in the class may have never used hydrocolloids at all, and some people might be very, very experienced.
+
+[3:44] So the the class has to be a balance between things that uh you know maybe you you might already know how to do, like spherification. We tend to deal with it with a more, you know, in in a more kind of rigorous way than you would get anywhere else. I think that's you know, the the goal that's what you know we try to do in general at the FCI and the tech department and cooking issues in particular, we try to do things in a very rigorous way whenever possible, and I think that's a standpoint you can you know you always get. But aside from those kind of basic techniques, we also try to teach some techniques. There's always something that no one's seen before because we always try to develop at least one or two new things for each class.
+
+[4:17] I mean, when I say new, I mean like brand new. And then um but the the the you know the other thing besides the specific applications is we try to teach a particular way of thinking about using these ingredients. So, you know, how to develop a recipe properly. So I mean, I think that I've had people take the class and come back to me and said that you know they were able to apply their stuff right away in in their menus. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:40] Uh I've never had anyone come back and say uh, you know, it was useless, you know what I mean? Or like what wasn't necessarily worth it. Uh but you know, uh I think it all depends on what you want to get out of it and kind of how you want to apply it. I mean, uh mo a lot of the people that we deal with are chefs, and so for them it's it's straight up. I mean, I don't know whether you're a chef or not, but a lot of them is straight up, well, am I going to get enough new menu items out of it?
+
+[5:03] And usually the answer is yes. Um, you know, also I'm terrible at selling myself. Am I right, Nastasha? That's true. I'm like the worst person at selling myself because uh, you know, I I hate to to sell someone on something and then have them not get what they want.
+
+[5:14] Is this helpful at all or no? It's a little bit helpful. Uh let me tell you where I'm at. Uh you know, I've read things like the you know, the hydrocolloid recipe collection from uh Martin Lurch, and I've read your primer and stuff and done some of the recipes. Uh I'm not as interested actually in recipes as I am in understanding if I'm going to be using sodium alginate and calcium carbonate, that what are the, you know, how does acidity affect it?
+
+[5:41] How does uh you know temperature affect things like that, so that I can then use those chemicals uh on my own without a recipe uh to develop new things. I mean that that's our that's our goal. Our you know, my my goal in general, and if you talk to you know, like my brother-in-law Wiley Dufresne at WD50, he hates giving hate, but he he prefers not to just give out straight recipes because he wants to foster understanding of how to use these ingredients, right? I mean, with I mean the the the one problem is is that it's a over the course of two days we're gonna be dealing with a w wide range of uh of products. So, I mean, like for instance with alginate, one of the things we deal with in general, alginate, you know, as you've you know alluded to.
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+[6:20] Uh for all those of you who don't know what the heck we're talking about, sodium alginate is a seaweed-derived uh hydrocolloid, like a like a gelling agent that stays liquid until it hits uh calcium, free calcium, at which point it forms a gel that you know uh that is not broken neither by heat nor by anything else, basically. I mean it's just the gels there forever. The unfortunate part about sodium alginate is it tends to uh suck up flavor, have very kind of poor flavor, the gel itself. You would never eat a block of alginate because it just tastes wretched. Anyway, but so uh as you know, it's affected by acid.
+
+[6:51] So yes, we get into that, right? Um but you know, or like you know, uh it's more saying the level we're gonna take it to is look, if you know you can't have acid too much acid because it's not it's gonna cause the alginate not to set. And then uh, you know, furthermore, you need to use uh something called a sequestrant to sequester the calcium that's freed up in the water as the acidity increases, or use a buffering agent such as sodium citrate. I mean, we'll get into that kind of stuff and like sodium hexametophosphate, but it's you know it's not it means it's i there's only a certain level of actual technical information we can get into in the class because we're d like I say we're dealing with people with a wide range of backgrounds and goals. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:27] So we're gonna deal with it, but uh you know I'm not gonna say that it's the same as reading scientific literature on the subject, you know, which which we can point you to you know you know what I mean? This is well the scientific literature doesn't necessarily apply I find a lot of it is just uh to get to the where I can use it in my cooking uh is a bit obtuse. Um yeah just uh I'm a culinary instructor and and I d uh really don't like giving out recipes. I'm in that that frame of mine I'm I want to teach people principles. I'm gonna teach them you know how to think about the food and then go ahead and do it uh without having to follow a recipe uh line by line some sort of prescription.
+
+[8:05] So that's the sort of and it sounds like you're doing that in the class so you're not doing recipes that you are going more into the the principles. Right and we've had really good luck with culinary uh instructors by the way taking our class so to get to school to pay for it. It's a non profit sorry. Yeah all right well anyway I I hope to see you in January and thanks for calling. Okay.
+
+[8:26] Bye. All right. Okay, so now uh back to our uh Thanksgiving real quick. Wait, oh we have another caller caller you are on the air. Hi there.
+
+[8:35] Dave it's Colin Gore again from down here in DC. Howdy uh I have two things I want to ask uh I know there's probably a break coming up so maybe pick whichever's easier. We'll we'll power through it. Let's do it. Alright, okay.
+
+[8:48] So first thing I want to do, I I'm making oyster mushroom soup oysters, right, out of kind of dropping them in an alginate bath and making these kind of like snotty little oyster looking things that are full of delicious briny oyster soup. And uh I want to make the kind of that alginate skin on them a little more pearlescent, a little more like you know, oystery, not like s thin uh translucent kind of snotty thing you get from the alginate. Right. Okay, so but like like hard snot. It's not like it's not like a Xanthan snot.
+
+[9:27] You're not adding a lot of Xanthan Oh yeah no no they like they come out great. It's just they're they're clear right I want this I want that very surface kind of skin to have a little bit of tr like be more translucent than transparent. Okay. Give it some kind of color Okay, here's a here's a couple of ways we can go. First of all, are you doing a forward alginate or reverse alginate?
+
+[9:47] Uh reverse. Okay you're doing so you're doing and you're they're frozen beforehand or or not frozen? Not frozen. Okay. Just out of curiosity I I do a a lot of mine I'll freeze just because it makes it easier like you freeze the mixture and then you drop it in and you don't have to worry about it.
+
+[10:01] Yeah so I'm on definitely had problems like you know forming them hit or miss. Yeah basically 98% of the time I'll pre freeze them because it's not that long of an extra step and it just makes the processing much easier. Okay now to your pearlescent problem. There are a couple of solutions. So you're looking to add something to the alginate bath both to modify the texture and the look.
+
+[10:19] Okay. Now if you want to just modify the look I don't recommend this by the way what I'm saying to you I don't recommend but you can go the Quique de costum method Quique de costas you might know famous Spanish chef uh adds a lot of metal dust to a lot of his stuff, right? So you can get food grade, basically pearlescent powder that's relatively flavor free. I'm not recommending this, but I'm saying like as the fastest way. So he did a famous dish where he did an oyster that he literally put silver dust on, like an oyster oyster, not like what you're saying, I believe.
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+[10:48] It's been a long time, been many years. But that looked, you know, that was some shiny stuff. You know what I mean? Uh and it gave her an interesting look. I'm not so much about adding stuff that doesn't have a sort of a flavor impact.
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+[11:00] Now, if you want to go flavor impact, you can do that. It's gonna look good, it's not gonna affect the taste. So you can get food grade silver either from like uh well, usually leaf if you get it from an Indian source, like an Ayurvedic source, but or you can get food grade powders. I don't know where Kiki got them, probably somewhere in Spain. Now, if you want to add more of a shimmer to it, and you want to modify the texture of the alginate, right?
+
+[11:20] So that it doesn't taste like solidified snot, right? Technical term, right? Nastasha solidified snot. Anyway, so uh uh what I would do is emulsify some oil into the alginate base before you drop. So what you're doing is is yeah, so that's gonna if this is an old uh semi-established technique, but one that's not really talked about a lot because everyone knows that the texture of an alginate uh gel is not so great.
+
+[11:42] If you add a little oil, mulsify a little oil in to it, right? All of a sudden, now your teeth are gonna break it better, it's gonna look better, it's gonna feel softer, and as long as you're careful with it, you're not gonna to destroy the integrity of it too much, right? And so and so that what I mean to me, much more than the than adding metal dust to it, like that, because you're improving the actual product other than just the visuals. It will also, you know, because you're emulsifying stuff in, it'll get a shimmery, you know, more of a uh uh salad dressing y, shimmery look to it, but you're actually also gonna be making a better product. Just make sure that you're emulsifying oil into the alginate and not the other way around because the alginate needs to be the continuous phase.
+
+[12:25] Okay. And what was the other one? Let's see whether we can tackle the other one real quick before we go to break, although Nastasha and Jack are gonna chop my head. Uh yeah, I want to ask if you ever so your juices that you clarified with your pectinx, you got you know, nice clear juices. Have you ever tried reducing them or making a glaze or even like a caramel out of that reduced uh juice?
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+[12:45] Oh yes. Do you know if the pectin the pectinx has a negative effect on that at all? No, I we do that all the time. I mean, I've never done it overheat because like you know, we're all about uh trying to preserve the original flavor of it. So I typically will reduce in my rotary evaporator, but I've made some of the most ridiculous reductions.
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+[13:02] So like typical applications we've done like fresh apple reduction that we've clarified and taking it down to a syrup, we've done fresh strawberry. Uh in fact, I don't know whether I talked about it on air, but it was a result of a question someone asked on air once. We I made uh a candy where we did uh I reduced the fresh clarified strawberry juice down, you know, without heat down to about 33 bricks and then used stirred that into a candy base that I had made that I'd let cool, you know, somewhat so that the strawberry wasn't flavored. Crazy, crazy good. Crazy good.
+
+[13:30] And uh we've done blood orange, you like the blood orange, right, Nastasha? Where we reduce it to a syrup post-clarification. So it's an excellent application. Um I don't know what the results with heat are because it's gonna taste a little bit cooked, but um you know, so there's certain clarification steps that if you can cook it, you might as well cook it. But uh on the other hand, pectinex is very good, especially on things like apple and and whatnot.
+
+[13:51] So yes, the quick answer is yes. So well, yeah, I was just curious then. What if uh if I wanted to kind of take the remaining starchy bits and the solid bits out of some like uh sweet potato slurry and try to caramelize the remaining sugars left ever? I know you even talked last week about uh like this is something I've been thinking about for a while. Because you know how like when you bake a sweet potato you get this delicious sometimes sometimes you get this delicious like caramel stuff that oozes out.
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+[14:14] Yes. And like drips on the pan. And I want them I want to make that, but like in large amounts. So I figured especially when I had saw a paper a couple of months ago about uh you know there being a lot of amylases in sweet potatoes so you could maximize you know how much sugar's in them, maybe bite down some extra starches and then I gotta figure out a way to kind of turn that into like you know, remove enough of the kind of solid matter to get like a sugary liquid I can simmer down and turn it into a caramel. There's no question in my mind.
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+[14:54] There's no question in my mind at all that you can juice a sweet potato and then clarify it. I there's no question. And then though the sugars will be in there. Now if you wanted to get sweeter uh you could add some um some brewers and some amylase to it. You know what I mean?
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+[15:07] Some some alpha beta amylase you get a brewer supply shop, add it to that and just and just basically mash it out like you would uh uh a wort for a beer. You know what I mean? And then the question is getting the right balance then clarifying it and cooking out the mash before you set the starch. Before you gelatinize it. You know what I mean?
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+[15:27] Because then after you gelatinize it all everything's okay in the ass. Would you rec uh you know rear I mean do you think pectan X would be a good wrap for that or there's no you know we I could try it. I mean physical separation is what I would try first, but I mean 'cause I don't know how much of it's soluble I don't know how much of it is stabilized by uh by by the pectin, but if something we could try to s if Nastasha remembers to write it down, we'll give it a we'll give it a a whirl. But yeah, definitely doable. Definitely doable.
+
+[15:50] But now now yeah. I mean, do you think I mean could I just try throwing like if I tried throwing it through a juicer, for instance, afterwards, would that be possible? Because I was like, I would juice it. I'll juice it right away. Juice it right away, and then do any procedure you're gonna have to the juice because it's just gonna free up more of the enzymes.
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+[16:07] So juice do all your juicing medicine. I've never tried juicing a sweet potato before. I didn't really know if I could expect it to squeeze a lot out. I don't know what your yield is gonna be. I don't know.
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+[16:17] But you know, you could also juice it, treat the pulp treat the pulp with uh with uh pectan X and re juice. Um button anyway, but give it a toy with it. Either way, you yield's gonna be better than what you get chipping out of soup, and you toss them in on can't be worse. Give us a h give us a holler, tell us how it works. Yeah.
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+[16:36] Alrighty, thanks for calling. So do we are we going to go to a break? Okay, we're going to break. We'll be right back with cooking issues. 7184972128.
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+[16:44] That's 7184972128. So much bone, brother. How do you feel, man? I'll feel all right. I don't want to people to know you're in here.
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+[16:54] How you feel, fellas? We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[17:20] We gotta take a high. Now I won't have about it. I'm gonna get that fella with a low hole and over there. No, James, hold on moment. Brad, get a take us higher.
+
+[17:59] Yeah. Take us higher. Brad! Bad! Bam!
+
+[18:22] Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, uh, the show where we answer all of your cooking issues, or as Nastasha said today, just your issues. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. Uh here live in Brooklyn. Okay, so back to Thanksgiving for a minute. Uh, because I didn't get to finish what uh what I was saying.
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+[18:44] So we got this, uh, you know, Patrick uh gave us this uh gave me, I should say. Nastasha didn't get to eat me all. But I got my own. Oh, you did? Heritage breed?
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+[18:53] Yeah. But how was it? It was great. Did you overcook it? A little bit.
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+[18:56] A little bit? A little bit or a lot bit? A little bit. Was there any moisture in it at all? Yes, there was.
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+[19:00] Was there a similarity with a with like a hammer? Was it was it like was it like a solid block? No. There was some juice left? Yes.
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+[19:07] You could eat it without gravy. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Anyway, so as uh as I said last week, the one that we got, uh one I got was a narraganset bird. Clocked in around uh 15 pounds, I think, 15 pounds or so.
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+[19:20] So smaller than my normal, you know, gigundous bird, but you know, because heritage breed. So I I did the bionic turkey, boned it in, you know, boned it inside out without cutting the skin, uh, made an aluminum skeleton for it, uh, made you know aluminum leg bones that we cut holes into, so they're like a sprinkler system, hooked it up to a circulator, piped hot oil through the through the uh Erzat's leg bones to cook the legs from the inside out at the correct temperature. I set my circulator at 67.5 for a final temperature in the leg after it was pumped through all the aluminum of about 66, uh, which is where I wanted it. Then uh after about an hour and 20 minutes of that, dropped the whole bird, still with the leg pumping through to get it inside a lot, threw it into a big thing of duck fat. When I say oil, I meant duck fat, uh, in duck fat, cooked it all to about a six, started it a little higher at like sixty-six and dropped it to sixty-five, and then finally a sixty-four for the finish off of the cook.
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+[20:11] Uh so sixty-four and a half. Uh, cooled it down in the fat, like it was in the fat, like it was a confie, ripped it out, and because my parents, well, my stepfather actually is petrified of any sort of cooking operation and doesn't understand it, I decided I was gonna finish the bird in the oven rather than my preferred technique, which is first deep fat frying and then uh failing that, ladling hot fat over it to crisp up the skin. Uh so anyway, so I'm like, all right, listen, my stepfather's name is Gerard, so I'm just gonna call him Gerard from here. He's one time I fried a turkey you know on the on the you know, out on the lawn, right? And a little bit spilled over and hit a little bit of the grass, and he now claims that I started a major forest fire that day.
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+[20:47] And when we says the grass is still dead there, which first of all, let's say it was, who who cares? I mean, he they got an acre of land, like a little patch of dead grass, make it the turkey, you know, cooking spot, right? Anyway, not a big problem, but this is the kind of thing that totally flips him out because he does, like I say, even though he's got one of the best palates for wine that I've ever met, of anyone I've ever met and like loves food, pe petrified and doesn't understand anything about cooking at all. Like doesn't know the sharp end of a knife. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:12] Anyway, so this year, oh, and then a year after that, I was like, Well, I won't kill your glass, so uh kill your grass. So I I fried it basically against my wishes. My mom said fry the turkey again. This is years ago. And I I fried it on the patio on the flagstone, and some oil hit the flagstone, and and this was one of those sub-freezing Thanksgivings, uh, you know, up in New York, and uh, and uh he was out there ho I don't know what the hell he thought he was doing, hosing down flagstone in below freezing weather because the water was just freezing up as he was trying to get the oil off.
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+[21:37] Anyway, he ended up ruined Thanksgiving for the second time for turkey related reasons. I mean I've ruined Thanksgiving many times for other things, arguments and whatnot. But uh anyway, so this year I was like, it's gonna be somewhat normal. I'm gonna throw the bird in the oven, everything's gonna be fine. I decide my mom has this uh this clay, this clay, uh, you know, like a bake sh baking sheet, almost like a rumor toff, but it's made by you know it's clay baking sheet.
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+[21:59] I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna throw this in like a pizza stone, I'm gonna throw this thing in the because it's got sides, right? So it'll catch the drippings. I'm gonna throw it in the oven, I'm gonna crank the oven to 500 degrees, and then I'm gonna put the turkey in, and the bottom's gonna get brown just like the top, because that's what you know, the bottom never gets brown properly when you're doing this kind of thing. And my mom's like, No, you're gonna set off the smoke detector. I'm like, mom, she has got a new one put in.
+
+[22:18] I'm like, first of all, here's a note to everyone out there. Like, I know safe the smoke detectors, safety, all that crap. Like, put a dang some sort of switch. They are cooking detectors. These things are cooking detectors.
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+[22:27] And my mom's cooking detector is hooked directly to the fire department. So as soon as you start cooking, like the engines come, and then in in Westchester, where my parents live, up they charge you, the city gives you a big fat bill if they show up at your house and there's no fire. Really? Yeah. So it almost makes you want to light a fire, like whenever they come.
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+[22:44] You know what I mean? I didn't say that. I didn't recommend that. Anywho. So, like, you know, I'm running around the house like it's like sticking these like plastic covers, these defeaters over the uh over the the cooking detectors.
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+[22:54] And well, here's what's demented, right? They don't want to put a switch on it in case you should turn it off and then go to bed, but instead they give you a plastic thing to defeat it that you have to remember to get on a chair and remove the plastic thing. Does this make any dang sense? It should be like your virus protection when you when you get on the computer where you say, Okay, I will turn it off for the next 20 minutes. You know what I mean?
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+[23:09] Yeah. So something like that. Anyway, I hate those damn things. My wife installed one once in my apartment in New York, even though we're in a fireproof building, and my only memory of it is it going off and me getting so angry that I literally jumped up and one hand punch fist at it, like you know, like Street Fighter move, like punched the the detective and like rain down on the floor in like little pieces. And I was like, I'm sorry, I had to apologize to everyone.
+
+[23:30] I was like, sorry for the outburst, but I I have this like visceral reaction against cooking detectors. Anyway, uh, you know, anyway, whatever. Here's the thing also when you're cooking in the kitchen, right? You know if there's a fire. It's not like in your bedroom or in a hallway at night.
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+[23:44] You know when you catch something on fire in the kitchen, right? Anyway, and plus everyone's house is underventilated, so there's always smoke whenever you're doing any sort of good cooking operation. So either everyone in the world is setting up apartments in New York, and houses that have those crappy little like Home Depot Brone, nothing against the Brone Corporation, like like Vents, and and you they fire them up, and they never can get all of the all of the uh the smoke out. So either everyone is cooking poorly, maybe true, or everyone is enduring smoke, more probably true, and then a good portion of those people, like someone in the house is freaking out about the smoke, right? It's irritating, whole thing's irritating.
+
+[24:21] Anyway, whatever. So I'm like, it's gonna be fine. We put the the little defeaters over the cooking detectors, fired up the oven to 500, which is the highest that thing would go, convection, threw in the baking sheet, got it all nice and hot, throw the turkey on, and for once the turkey actually fit in the oven because I didn't bring a 30-pound turkey with me, or you know, I brought like a 15-pound turkey. Put it on, all of a sudden, smoke all through the freaking house. Smoke everywhere.
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+[24:45] Smoke, smoke on top of smoke on top of smoke. And I'm like, you know, whatever, it's smoke. I don't care. Everyone's flipping out. Open it up.
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+[24:51] The dang baking sheet, the clay baking sheet had shattered in two. And all of the drippings and fat and everything from the turkey that was crisping up in the thing were on the bottom of the oven, basically smoking like smoking like the devil. And so I didn't get to fully brown the turkey. And yet still the most delicious bird I've ever made in my life. Once we got through the whole, you know, ruining Thanksgiving aspect of it.
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+[25:13] Uh so to report back on the Narragansa turkey, do not overcook the turkey, but the bird definitely had like it was like turkey squared. It tasted like turkey with turkey flavor in it, even though I hadn't reinforced it with anything. It didn't put gravy on it. I brined it lightly before we cooked it, but you know, no big deal. But it had a very meaty flavor, enjoyed by all, including my stepfather's 90 or 91-year-old ex-butcher father who spent his years uh, you know, butchering animals back in the old days, back when meat had had real flavor.
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+[25:42] So that's my report back on the Narragansa turkey. And don't try to crisp that thing on top of a uh on top of a clay baking sheet because bad things will happen. Um anyway, do you want to catch back up on time and take our second break now? Sure. All right.
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+[26:00] Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, before we go to break, let's uh I have a class coming up, and again, you know, I'm apparently if you listen to the first segment, not so good at the self promotion. But uh this is actually a very inexpensive class. If you happen to be in New York City tomorrow and you want to learn how to make some holiday cocktails that you can make at home and some that require liquid nitrogen or rotary evaporation, then uh for the meager price of $125 dollars, and you'll get how many drinks were you making? Some preposterous number of drinks for the hell is cheaper than a bar almost, because we're gonna give you snacks and everything, too.
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+[26:28] I mean, when you think about it, it. It's two hours, uh 6 30 p.m. to 8 30 p.m. I'll be there. Nils Norn will be there, and we're gonna, you know, make some drinks that go on fire, we're gonna make some drinks that are cold, we're gonna what you know, anyway.
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+[26:41] It's tomorrow, and you can uh sign up by going to www.what French Culinary.com or something. I don't really know. I shouldn't know this kind of stuff. No, I you have to go to the International Culinary Center from the French Culinary. Oh, well, I don't know.
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+[26:55] I don't know. Holiday cocktails. Anyway, it should be fun, and it and if nothing else, you will have a lot to drink. So uh check that out. Call in your questions.
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+[27:06] We're coming back for another segment. 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good?
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+[27:15] With so much bone, brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down.
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+[27:31] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna take you high.
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+[28:00] We're gonna take you high. Brother! Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up my new cores.
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+[28:14] Let's go and do that within it. Yeah, alright. I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad gonna take us higher. Take us higher.
+
+[28:44] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold and Nastasha Lopez here in the studio, waiting for your call at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Alright.
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+[28:59] I have some questions from the uh from the email. We haven't answered any email questions today, have we yet? No. Alright. Uh I have a couple of questions, Chris S.
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+[29:05] says. Uh, I really want an ISI or EC, because they're switching. They're switching to EC here in the US, or they're switching to ISI. EC, I thought. ECISC.
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+[29:14] Yeah, they're both. Like in Europe, they're ISI and here they're EC or vice versa, or something like that. So they're both true. We're just gonna say EC from now on. Hey, you all know what I'm talking about, the whipped cream makers that we use for like uh whipped cream or th rapid infusion technique, you know, developed a couple months ago.
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+[29:28] Um so the question Chris has is uh which is the best one of these uh EC uh things to buy EC whip. First of all, don't don't buy the I mean nothing against, but don't buy the Seltzer one, it's the most limited. Make sure you get a cream one. Uh and there's there's all different kinds. There's Profi Whip, there's the gourmet whip, like nine million, they don't have crazy names, but in general, the the big deal, the newer ones have silicone grip rings on them so that you can grip them when you're wet as opposed to the older ones.
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+[29:55] So I'd look for the ones that are the silicone grip ring. I I should know like exactly what all the line models are, but I don't. The only big difference really is uh the thermal whip. The thermal whip is uh looks like it's like a three-quarter of a liter or something, but it's actually smaller, it's a half liter, and it's insulated. And with the thermal whip, the thermal whip is very useful for people who are working on a line or in an area where they need to keep something hot or cold, and they don't have access to either keeping it in the fridge or in a bain marie of hot water for for service, right?
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+[30:24] So if you need to keep something hot or cold for a long time, then get a thermo whip. But they're a lot more money and their capacity is is lower. Now, I I would definitely I mean it you're more limited if you get a smaller size, but it's also going to cost you less to do a recipe in a smaller size than in a bigger size because you can't just when you're doing an infusion in an EC bottle, you you, you know, the the amount of product in it and how many chargers you put in it are variables, and so you want to keep your recipes the same all the time. Most of my recipes are written for half-liter uh half-liter containers, um, you know, but you can scale them up to liter containers. If you can only buy one and you know you're gonna need to make a lot of product at one point, maybe you have to get uh the liter size, but it's uh it's an interesting question um to answer.
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+[31:10] I use mainly half-liters. By the way, for any of you that like we're like literature in a construction zone here. So if you hear any like hammering, like don't say that it's not Jack's fault, our our our engineer, he's not like doing construction this, but there's only so much sound insulation that we can do, and so there's like, you know, it's because they're making Roberta's pizzeria here even better than it was before. That's why. And so it's worth it.
+
+[31:29] Uh second question Chris has is uh if you put pineapple in an EC with alcohol and charged it, would you get both flavored alcohol and alcohol-infused fruit, similar to using a vacuum machine? I have tried it, we've done it, uh, and yes, you do get some uh some infusion into the pineapple itself. I don't know that it's uh I have to redo it again. It works. I don't think it's maybe as effective at getting the stuff into the pineapple as the vacuum machine, but it's pretty close, like it does actually work.
+
+[31:56] And in fact, I'll probably be demoing that tomorrow. Um the uh caveat is you want to make sure that you use nitrous so that the pineapple doesn't uh taste carbonated, and I think you're gonna boil more of the liquor out when it bubbles out than you would using a vacuum. So I think the vacuum gets a stronger infusion into the pineapple. Pineapple uh is also interesting because a lot of its aroma once it's extracted is very fleeting, uh especially in distillations and things like that. So you're gonna want to probably, you know, balance.
+
+[32:22] Like I wouldn't keep pineapple for a long, long time, even though people do. I think it like loses some of its good aroma. But I hope this hope that helps. Okay. Uh Teddy DeVico called uh wrote in and he said, What are your thoughts on getting the Sous vide Supreme?
+
+[32:35] Is it as accurate as an immersion circulator? Thanks. No. No, it is not. Uh the Sous vide Supreme, uh another little gripe you've heard me say before.
+
+[32:44] Sous vide is cooking in a in uh in a in a vacuum environment in a vacuum bag and sealed like using a vacuum machine. Sous vide Supreme has nothing to do with Sous vide. Sous vide Supreme is a low temperature cooker that's basically a non-stirred water bath. Non stirred water baths have limits of accuracy because they're not stirred, right? I'm not saying it's a bad piece of equipment, but I'm saying that there are limits to its fundamental accuracy and and over very long periods of time, it probably gets a fairly accurate result if you don't stir and you leave it.
+
+[33:10] I mean, if if you just leave it sit, it'll probably equalize over a long period of time. But in general, cooking, I would say that it's not going to be nearly as even or accurate as an immersion circulator, which is typically good to a couple tenths of a degree across the entire bath. So also, immersion circulators are a lot, uh, they can they can do various different sizes and they take up less space in the kitchen. The Sous-de-Supreme, I realize is a couple hundred dollars less than a circulator, but if I was gonna get one, I would save up the couple of hundred extra dollars and get an immersion circulator. I would personally, and I shouldn't ever say this, I would rather have like my own like DIY, like you know, home ghetto circulator than the Sous Vide Supreme.
+
+[33:48] But that's me. That's me. Don't take this. I'm sorry, I apologize. It's not a bad product.
+
+[33:52] I'm just saying that I'm very pro-circulation. Another thing you might want to do is put an aquarium pump into a Souvie Supreme and have it circulate, and then I think you'd you get rid of all of its shortcomings. That's another solution. That's like a like a $25 solution of the problem. Oh, we have a caller.
+
+[34:04] Caller, you were on the air. Hey David, it's Rusty Shockerford. How are you? Hey, doing all right. I'm glad to hear that.
+
+[34:11] I got a question for you. Um I'm illegally distilling alcohol. Good. Yeah, I you know, when I saw it when I originally was directed to cookingacuse.com, I found a kindred spirit in you. So what I want to know is I want to do a Dr.
+
+[34:27] Pepper infusion because as we all know, Dr. Pepper's the champagne and beverages. Yeah. It's not, it's not, yeah, champagne. We gotta think of another one.
+
+[34:34] I have champagne for my favorite beers. We gotta call what we need, like some sort of sham soda term. Yeah, Dr. Pepper, good product. Okay.
+
+[34:40] Dr. Pepper is the preferred drink of the booth at Heritage Radio Network as well. Wow. Yeah. So okay, so what what do you want to infuse with Dr.
+
+[34:48] Pepper? I I just make a basically a neutral grain spirit. That's all I distill right now. Right. And uh it comes in around like 45, 50%.
+
+[34:59] And I wanted to just I bought an ISI and I want to infuse Dr. Pepper flavors into booze. Well, okay. Well, I mean, the problem is like a liquid liquid, like you know what you should do is just buy Dr. Pepper syrup.
+
+[35:17] Yeah. You should like like you should just like I don't know whether you can, like uh Dr. Pepper, I is that Coke or Pepsi? Uh I think it's actually like a it's not owned by either of them. It's like a neph lead or something.
+
+[35:29] Right, but they locally they always go through a uh, you know, in other words, like even if you're an independent locally, you either go through a Coke distributor or a Pepsi distributor for your for your bottling. So like I like you anyway, my point is that if it's ever on tap anywhere, which it is, right? Yeah, it means you can buy the syrup in a bag in box situation. And so those syrups are typically very high bricks because they're mixed in low quantity, so that you can get many, many, many gallons out of it. And then you could just do the real deal.
+
+[35:55] You know what I mean? So you're talking adding, you know, like a very small percentage uh of product. So you could still you could make a straight up Dr. Pepper, you know, booze and not take it, you know, below uh below 40%. If you're starting with if you're starting with 50, you could take it not below 40 and have just straight up Dr.
+
+[36:15] Pepper liquor. You know, and then carbonating. Well, okay, so cle so okay, so it's it's an interesting question. So clarification, right? Typically clarifying is just gonna get rid of stuff that makes it not light not pass through it.
+
+[36:35] Dr. Pepper, the only reason light doesn't pass through it is because it's so concentrated. Like everything is actually in solution there. Do you know what I mean? So like uh if you want it clear, right, the the the then you'd have to I mean the problem is is that like the sugars wouldn't come through and like some of the bittering agents wouldn't come through.
+
+[36:53] So if you redistilled Dr. Pepper, all you get is kind of the um the aroma. Do you know what I'm saying? Which isn't necessarily which isn't necessarily what you want. Another thing we could do, I don't really know the recipe, although I know it it has prunes in it, which is why like the fake ones are called like Dr.
+
+[37:08] Thunder. Uh you know what I mean? Uh you know, reference to your butt, I guess. But the but the the but i i I don't know the actual recipe of Dr. Pepper, but I'm sure this is something that is like a known like thing on the internets that we could look it up.
+
+[37:23] And then if we figure out what the flavor profile is, well then you could start doing distillations with the aroma components of it, and then try to mimic like the sugar acid balance of something like for instance in the prune and get it get it to come come across. And then you could use something that's like less color. Also, there are white prunes, right? So if you're gonna use a prune, like like uh most prunes are are purple because most plums that are made into prunes are purple, but there are white plums that are made into prunes. These don't you can't get them commercially.
+
+[37:51] I think there's some French ones. Uh is it stretching my memory a lot, but I believe like Brignol uh prunes can be white. I'm not sure. But anyway, so you can get that kind of dried fruit flavor and you can add some kind of plum essence back to it to get a plummy thing in a clearer liquid if you start from first principles. But then you're going down a much longer road rather than if you just want like straight up fast delicious, you get your s you get yourself some liquor and you get yourself some Dr.
+
+[38:16] Pepper syrup and you know, you water it to whatever level you want to drink it at and then um and then carbonate it, and then you're good to go. I mean, that's like a one that's like a one day problem. Do you know what I mean? I will I will send you a bottle once it's uh homemade. Oh, we appreciate it.
+
+[38:30] We appreciate it. Thanks for thanks for calling in. One other question. All right. I want to know what your favorite Simpsons episode was.
+
+[38:37] Wow, you know, I haven't watched The Simpsons in a I appreciate the first non-cooking question. I haven't watched the Simpsons in a long time, a long time. Because I, you know, but I I used to watch it faithfully, and there are so many good ones to choose from. Uh the one where the pig is flying through the air and Homer says it's still good, it's still good, it's still good, comes to mind. At least for the vegetarian.
+
+[38:56] Yeah, that's it. That's that's a good one. Uh the the when uh you know when Krusty uh went to jail the first time around. That was an amazing, amazing episode. Like uh the itchy and scratchy, uh the itchy and scratchy uh censorship one, the flag burning one.
+
+[39:12] I mean, there's all there's so many, it's so hard to choose. Think about it for a while. I'll listen next week. And uh I'll put some good thinking into that one. All right, Dave, thanks a lot.
+
+[39:21] All right, thanks for calling. All right. So we see we can rip through some more questions before we're done. Sure. Jack, we have a couple minutes here.
+
+[39:28] Can I rip through some of these questions? And Jack, you've never given me a Dr. Pepper in the studio. Wow, calling you out, calling you out. Also, Dr.
+
+[39:34] Pepper, for those of you that are diet drinkers, a good diet flavor. Look, you know what? Nastasha's sitting here crinkling up her nose. I like look, people who drink diet sodas, right? And I grew up drinking, I realize everyone's gonna hate me now.
+
+[39:45] I gotta drink diet soda. Listen, it's like people who drink diet sodas, right? We don't drink just one. Like people who like have sugarful sodas are like, I need a little bit of a boost. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:54] People drink giant sodas, they don't drink water, right? All they drink is diet soda. So they need to pound a bunch of these things to stay hydrated, right? That used to be me. Now now I drink exclusively seltzer, right?
+
+[40:05] So I don't drink really soda that much anymore because I drink exclusively seltzer. But realize that your diet soda drinking friends and neighbors are using it as a hydration technique, not as a like I need a little bit of sugar. So, you know, and if you're buying for a party, right? Never let a sugar soda drinker buy soda for a party. They're always wrong.
+
+[40:27] This is why at the end of the night, there's no diet coke left, and there's 8,000 bottles of Coke left at the end of the party. Why? Yes, you have no idea what you're talking about. Look, a diet soda drinker goes over and locates their two-liter bottle, right? And then they drink it, right?
+
+[40:42] Whereas you have like a cup of coke. Like, mark my words. Let diet soda drinkers buy the non-alcoholic products for your party. Alright, hold on a sec. I got uh um I got another question from um I got a question from Jacob uh and he had a question about a tabletop vacuum sealer.
+
+[40:59] Um but uh Jacob, I'm gonna answer this question next week because I didn't have time to research the one that you put onto the uh onto the onto the emails. Emails. So uh I'll try and research that. A lot of people are interested in lower priced vacuum machines because kind of the entry level price for a real vacuum machine is in and around $1,500. And there's a wealth of new ones out there that are three and four hundred dollars.
+
+[41:22] And uh the question is, are they any dang good? The answer is I have no idea, uh, because I haven't used them, but I'd like to look at the specs and see whether they're any good. Uh I mean uh it would be great. Like my life would be really cool if like I had the money to go buy all this equipment and test it for for you guys. I don't, you know what I mean?
+
+[41:40] I don't have access to it because uh one thing I'm good at, Nastasha, right, is putting equipment through its paces. Right. Yes or no? Yes. Yes.
+
+[41:48] Uh okay. And one last question, also from uh Teddy DeVico is uh he recently recently got a twist and sparkle, which is a new carbonation uh unit from uh EC that carbonates liquid, and he says uh it's used in drinks, but why not savory things such as sauces or broths? Have you carbonated any sauces or broths or other savory liquids? Uh and uh yes, but you you know the the issues are one, the sauce has to be good served cold because when you heat it, you're gonna lose a lot of the carbonation. And it has to taste good carbonated, which means it has to taste good with CO2.
+
+[42:14] A lot of times with savory dishes, when things have CO2 in them, they start tasting like they're a little bit fermented. And so you have to watch out for that. I would do a quick test just by, you know, like doing 50-50 with uh I mean if you have the ISI Twist of Sparkle, just try it. The rules are make sure it's cold, make sure it doesn't have uh if it has any like milk in it, you're done. It's gonna foam over and spray all over your house.
+
+[42:42] If you if you have particles in it, then it's gonna foam up and spray all over your house. Um so it needs to be clear, otherwise you're gonna run into real problems. Uh but other than that, the only rules are keep it cold and does it taste good. And that's basically like a general good rule for life, right? With well, for carbonating.
+
+[43:00] Keep it, keep the temperature where it wants to be. And what? He said it's a good rule for life. Good rule for life, yeah. Well, you should yes, I'm not gonna get into it on the air.
+
+[43:08] Anyway, so uh this then has been cooking issues. Uh come back, visit us next week. Um Tuesday this time. Vicious visions. Oh, you did crap.
+
+[43:29] Got me on the score. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to be my baby. Between minutes later. Enhance your CTE programs with AP and the college credit it offers.
+
+[43:50] New AP Career kickstart courses are now available for high schools to adopt for the 2026-2027 school year. Help your students kickstart their careers with AP Cybersecurity or AP Business with Personal Finance. Learn more at career kickstart.org.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] I'm Sam Edwards, I'm third generation Cure Master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause and what they're doing. They're supporting family-raised uh livestock, small family farms, uh certified humane, pasture-raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into uh serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon sausage like my grandfather did.
+
+[0:30] You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or Virginia Traditions.com. Oh, you daddy rap. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to be a good one.
+
+[1:08] Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues from the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha, the hammer Lopez, the hammer of cooking issues. Uh here to set me straight, keep me honest. Uh call in all of your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:33] So uh today's uh show is brought to you by uh Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards Corporation. I have actually a little uh story to relate about that. I was coming home from Thanksgiving. Uh you know, I take the train uh from my mom's house in Westchester, uh just north of New York, down to Grand Central, stopped at the Murray's cheese shop and saw what might be the messed best marbled ham I've ever seen produced by an American corporation.
+
+[1:56] And it was one of Sam Edwards's uh one of his hams. And I I took it home, it was incredibly delicious. I've known Sam Edwards for several years actually, because I'm been kind of a ham nut for uh for a long time. So uh a couple of problems with the with the ham. It's not marketed under his actual brand name, it's marketed as uh Surrey Farms, and I don't really Surrey Farms I don't really I never knew.
+
+[2:20] So if you go to Murray's cheese in New York or you see something marketed as uh Surrey Farms, it's actually uh an S. Wallace Edwards ham. And then uh I I emailed him, I was like, Well, what's the deal? I've never seen an American ham that's uh that's you know so well marbled. And uh he told me that he was actually getting the pigs from Patrick here at Heritage Foods.
+
+[2:40] What do you think about that, Nastasha? It's pretty cool, right? Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so uh delicious product.
+
+[2:45] Uh we fully support Sam Edwards and his attempt to because I've always said, I think I've talked about on this program before, that uh American ham is delicious, and we have our own uh traditions, and you know, there's no there's there's no reason that Americans should try to pretend to be something else. We have our own delicious country ham, and we have for hundreds and hundreds of years, it's a unique cultural uh product. Uh so I'm a hu huge supporter of it. And my my one gripe has always been that although our cure masters are as good as any cure masters in the world, and by the way, we're it's still in the construction zone here at Roberta's Pizzeria. So if you hear any hammer drilling in the background, no one is attempting to break into the studio and murder us, it's just normal construction going on.
+
+[3:27] Anyway, so I've always said that the one of the main problems isn't the cure masters themselves or the techniques they use, but the quality of pork available to most ham cures here in the US as opposed to those available to let's say the Spanish. Um so Sam Edwards, uh S. Wallace Edwards, is trying to change that, uh, partially by getting some material from Patrick at Heritage Foods, the uh founder of our radio network. So anyway, so kudos to Sam Edwards. Now, on to cooking issues proper.
+
+[3:56] So uh some of you who listen to the show regularly might remember that uh several weeks ago, maybe even a month ago now, uh I issued a challenge that uh if someone could produce a raw chocolate bar that didn't make me want to throw up when I ate it that that even is remotely resembled real chocolate uh or you know tasted good that I would eat raw food for uh a week. Well I have an update to that challenge but before I get to that update uh uh we have a caller Nastasha we have a caller all right caller you're on the air Dave Howdy uh this is Colin Gore down in Washington DC Howdy and yeah I had a I guess not exactly cooking related I mean you know in the in the aura of cooking but not directly related question this time. Um I'm actually in a PhD program in material science department at University of Maryland. Nice. And we are building a seminar series for the upcoming semester and uh I was wondering if you knew had any contacts at PIC gums because I'm interested in trying to get someone from there to talk uh to us, give a kind of presentation that's a little scientific but also kind of cool and interesting.
+
+[5:15] All right. Well, TIC gums, for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, TIC gums is a main major manufacturer of hydrocolloids, which uh again, for those of you who still don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Uh hydrocolloids are a group of kind of uh thickeners and gelling agents that in the past were used almost exclusively by industrial uh concerns to make foods uh cheaper or ship better or last longer when they're frozen, etc. etcetera. Uh but in the past ten years or so have really been used by uh chefs to try and either achieve special effects or increase quality.
+
+[5:48] So there's been a major shift in these ingredients from uh being seen as additives to being seen as legitimate ingredients in in uh high cuisine. So TIC Gums is a major manufacturer of this and their and their uh headquarters is in Maryland somewhere. I think it's somewhere near Beltsville, right? So or they're are they in Pennsylvania? I always forget.
+
+[6:04] Yeah, anyway, they're they're no, they're in Maryland, a little bit a little bit northwest of Baltim northeast of Baltimore. Oh yeah, and I've uh I've supposed to be visited, I suppose I visited there many times. My main kind and th th what's interesting about them also, for those of you listening out there, they will sell to individuals. They're one of the m few manufacturers that uh for some reason takes an interest in in this and they have what's called or at least they used to, uh a chef's kit that you could buy stuff from them. And so t and it's TIC gums, and you can go to them.
+
+[6:33] They the unfortunate thing about TIC gums is that all of their products have horrific names like saladizer 210S and picaloid and you know, all these all these like horrible sounding they sound like parasites, diseases and insects, but um they make really good products. The other thing about them is that they they are uh they're a blender. They are a a gum blender, a solution provider. So they don't provide straight up raw materials the way let's say Dow Chemical would. They blend their own uh proprietary mixtures and their own sources and they sell them, so they won't tell you exactly what's in their mixture, which is the other interesting thing.
+
+[7:06] But the main thing with and I'm gonna answer your question, I'm just explaining to everyone else who doesn't know what TIC gums is. The uh TIC gums well the one we use most is a product called saladizer either the 210s or the 310s and this is something actually that anyone should have around their house it's a mixture of gum arabic and Xanthan gum both natural ingredients and it's uh fantastic at stabilizing uh you know um emulsions oil water emulsions uh uh for later uh to to dilute later so we use it to make simple syrups with oils and fats in them salad dressings sauces it's fantastic stuff it goes in cold it's really easy to use it's not too you know finicky so that that's the product theirs we use the most now the downside I no longer have a real contact on the East Coast my old contacts got Riefler moved to be the West Coast and uh Asia uh rep for TIC gums but they have a hotline called gum guru and uh if if you email us I will try to remember although if for anyone has ever met me I'm horrible at at email but um they're all really nice people down there and I'm sure they'd be happy if you find I don't have his contact info anymore but if you call Scott uh Riefler out on the West Coast he might to say who because he's a really good guy and interesting he used to give the culinary talks on the East Coast. So if you contact him he might know who his current you know incarnation on the East Coast would be because it would be an easy easy trip for them. But yeah TIC gums good people. Yeah all right thanks a lot no problem follow up with that no yeah so if you need any more help again contact us most likely a question on the blog is the best way to get uh a a response because that's the only thing I'm kind of guaranteed to respond to but you know that I they're they're good people and I'm sure they'll they'll respond and actually for those of you out there who have gum questions, like they're one of the few companies that if you ask them uh uh for a problem to it, you know, a solution to a particular problem, like I have XYZ salad dressing, it has these uh situations.
+
+[8:57] Which product do you recommend? They will, unlike most companies, they will actually get back to you with an answer. It's a they have a s uh uh what's it called? System? System called Gum Guru uh on their TIC Gums website.
+
+[9:07] So it's a good good uh good place to go, a good resource, and uh fine people. All right, well thanks for thanks for your question. Uh okay, now back to uh the uh raw food raw food challenge. So what I said was is that if someone could produce a raw food, a raw chocolate that was even remotely delicious at all, and really that didn't leave a bad aftertaste in my mouth, that I would eat uh raw food uh exclusively for a week. Now uh Nastasha is here not just to hammer on you people, but to uh although she never actually does that.
+
+[9:40] But uh uh but to keep me honest, and uh one of my interns, Grace, who's actually has her final today, she's gonna graduate the French culinary. We're gonna lose another fine intern, actually, several. Uh we're losing Piper as well, another fine intern. Um she brought some uh you remember the brand name, Nastasha? No, I don't remember.
+
+[9:57] Some raw it's like you know, it comes in some sort of craft paper, crunchy label thing from Whole Foods Market and it costs like a thousand dollars a bar or something like that. But I ate it and I wasn't revolted, right? Right, yeah. Right. So it looks like I'm I might have to actually do this because if there's if there's anything on earth I hate, it's uh it's a welcher, right?
+
+[10:16] You you know, you someone who welches on bets, you know, you could be a serial killer, I could find something redeeming about you. But someone who welches on that's not really true. If someone who welches on bets, is like, you know, that's like the worst thing in the world, right? Right. It's terrible, right?
+
+[10:28] For you, yeah. Well, for you too, no? You like a welcher? I don't like it. What?
+
+[10:34] I haven't dealt with a lot of them. That's because they're universally reviled and hated. Okay. Anyway, uh, so uh so I can't welsh on this. So now I I had a couple of outs.
+
+[10:44] I gave myself a couple of outs in this bet because I said that not only Yes, I did, if you'll remember, I said not only does it have to be delicious, but it has to actually be raw. And there is a lot of res there are a lot of people out there who basically say there is no such thing as raw as raw cocoa beans because of the processing that they go through on the way they all go above this kind of magic temperature of 108 degrees Fahrenheit where all enzymes are supposed to be destroyed. Before I go on, a little rant about that. Not all enzymes are disturbed, there are enzymes that are destroyed below 118, and there are many, many enzymes that last well, well, well, well, well above 118 degrees Fahrenheit. And how fast an enzyme is denatured is not only a function of temperature, but a function of temperature and time.
+
+[11:28] So to think there's some sort of magic brick wall at 118 degrees Fahrenheit where no enzymes can pass through that brick wall is absurd. I mean, beyond absurd, ridiculous. Has how much basis in science? Zero. Zero zero basis in science.
+
+[11:42] Um now that's one thing about raw food. Second thing about it is I don't know why enzymes like why why should I preserve an enzyme in in in a food? I I have not seen a a p a paper yet that tells me what the benefit is of preserving all the all the enzymes in the food. Now I'm willing to be proven wrong on this, like anything else, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Um but, you know, first of all, a lot of enzymes are going to be deactivated in the gut anyway.
+
+[12:07] Not all of them, but many of them are gonna be deactivated uh in the gut. Many enzymes are bad. You know, they do damaging things to you. Not all enzymes are little beneficent proteins that are like wandering around your body only fixing things that went wrong. So uh I I I don't understand really the whole premise behind raw food either.
+
+[12:24] But that is not that is neither here nor there. The the the fact of the matter is I said that I would do it, and I know many fine people that's exactly it's like the the uh the first the first defense of a prejudiced person, right? I know many fine raw food people. But anyway, it's true. I know many fine raw food people.
+
+[12:41] Uh, but I I have promised I'd do it, so so I will. Um now, but I have to to research it. Oh, the out, the out, sorry. Uh so yeah, chocolate turns out that 99% of the, according to the data that I could gather, which may or may not be true, uh, you know, 99% of the stuff labeled raw chocolate in uh in markets, in food markets, is in fact not raw because there is almost no one out there with processing equipment to actually produce the cocoa butter. So even if you obtained raw, completely raw, like controlled fermentation, so the fermentation never went above 118, which is possible, um, you know, although not likely, but possible, uh, and never been roasted, so it's not going to develop any of the roasted flavors that you would get.
+
+[13:25] To make chocolate, you'd have to express cocoa butter to add cocoa butter back to uh even if you were using just grinding raw raw nibs, you'd have to add cocoa butter back to it to get the chocolate consistency. And the cocoa butter that's pressed is pressed in such a way that the temperature basically uh you know has to get above uh you know 118 degrees Fahrenheit using the equipment that's out there. So uh most people who are providing uh um you know these products to the raw food manufacturers probably are misrepresenting what they're what they're providing. And this is the data that I'm able to gather on the internet. Now there's a there's an interesting guy by the name of Ben Ripple.
+
+[13:59] Ben Ripple has a thing called uh big Tree Farms out in Bali, and I've seen him present a couple times. I met him, although he he wouldn't never remember this, at a taste three, which is a uh an event that ate you know the Mandavi that TED conferences used to have along with you know with Mandavi, and I spoke at it a couple times, and Ben Ripple spoke at it. Uh and uh his deal is is that he wants he he goes to poor farmers in Bali and other uh you know places over there and uh wants to get them some money for their product. And so as far as I can tell, he doesn't really care so much personally about raw food, but he sees it as a niche market where he can all of a sudden raise the value of these products that his farmers are producing by producing a very specialty product for a very niche market where he's not competing with bigger growers or you know bigger countries, bigger industrial concerns. So he's been a supplier of raw cashews for a long time, true raw cashews, and he's spent a lot of time and energy trying to produce a true raw uh chocolate.
+
+[14:53] So apparently, if you get your cocoa products from uh Big Tree Farms, which is Ben Ripple's corporation, you have a guaranteed certified uh raw product. I don't know what the heck the price is. Apparently it's a lot, lot higher than most of the raw uh raw you know chocolate products that are out there. Uh and I think he's a raw, you know, he supplies two manufacturers. But so anyway, I don't know whether the one I got was real or not, but it's weak to try and get out of it just by saying that it probably wasn't actually a raw chocolate.
+
+[15:19] So we're gonna do it. Uh which means that I won't be eating the family meal at the French culinary. Well, me and my family, because who who else cooks at my house? Oh. Yeah, nobody.
+
+[15:29] Now, here's the thing. Now, do we have a uh the the here's do I follow raw food just based on 118? In which case I can have sashimi, right? Or do I mean most raw food people are also like vegovegan style folk, right? Now, if I'm saying what I'm saying is that to be raw food doesn't necessarily mean I have to go vegetarian, right?
+
+[15:52] I mean not that I could go vegetarian. Vegetarian for a week is not a problem. Vegan for a week might be a problem. Uh the problem is that I'd have to find unpasteurized milk, and you can't, it's hard to buy it here in New York if you can get to there's certain farms. You can buy direct from farms, but here in New York City, it's difficult to get unpasteurized milk, so I couldn't have unpasteurized milk.
+
+[16:08] Um but I mean I don't see any reason why I can't have shasim uh sashimi, right? Nastasha, do you see any reason? No. Or carpaccio. I can't have parmesan with my carpaccio, though, because the curd from uh Parmesan cheese is cooked to a uh higher temperature than 118 Fahrenheit during the curding process.
+
+[16:26] So I couldn't have parmesan with my carpaccious which might ruin it for me because really that's the taste of carpaccio anyway, is the is the parmesan and the olive oil. So uh also so that's the first question. Do I follow their rules or just the 118 degree rule? That's the first question I have to figure out. The second thing is I'm gonna have to plan this for a long time because I'm definitely not gonna buy any BS raw food product off the shelf that's just some hyper processed uh crap that has like not doesn't have a good taste, where the only criteria for its manufacture was that it had never been heated because I hate products like that.
+
+[16:57] I'm also not gonna have any substitute products, no, no, you know, raw food product pretending to be something that's cooked, right? The the the challenge is can I make everything truly freaking delicious, right? Truly delicious and also raw and wanting to be what it is instead of an imitation of something else. That's the real challenge. So it's gonna probably take me a month or so to figure out a good week's worth of recipes, learn a whole bunch of techniques.
+
+[17:22] I'm gonna have to read every raw food cookbook there is. Um, you know, I've read Sarma's uh one of Sarma uh Melangaiis' cookbooks. And you know, she's she's nice, she's nice. Maybe I can call her and ask for some advice if she'll still talk to me because I was supposed to help her with a bunch of dehydrator projects she was working on and we never got back to her. Remember that, Nastasha?
+
+[17:38] Yes. Yeah. So if she'll still if she'll still take my calls, I'll call her and try and uh and try and work on that. But uh I'm gonna shoot for a goal somewhere in probably February or something, you know, since that's such a crappy month anyway. We'll do a raw food uh we'll do a raw food week.
+
+[17:54] Nastasha, you gonna eat any of this or no? Sure, I'll I'll do it with you if it happens. Really? What do you mean if it happens? You call me a welcher?
+
+[18:03] Yes. Jeez. I just told you that the worst thing in the world is a welcher. Anyway, all right. So we're gonna go to our first commercial break, but call in all of your questions to 718 497 2128, 718 497 2128 cooking issues.
+
+[18:17] You feel good? So much bone, brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. I don't want to people to know you in here.
+
+[18:26] How you feel, fella? Hey Dam! Sure getting down. Look at you! We're gonna have a bunk good time.
+
+[18:39] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. Don't take them up, friend. We gotta take you high.
+
+[19:00] All right. You wanna do it again? Yeah, that you won't. We gotta take you high. Brother!
+
+[19:14] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two courses. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, Coast of Cooking Issues, along with Natasha Lopez.
+
+[19:24] Here from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718 497 2128. Have a question in from Paul. Uh says, Hi Dave.
+
+[19:37] It's well known that baking soda can be used to speed up Mayard reactions and browning. Is this just about pH? Is there something else at work? And then is there anything that can be used to slow down such reactions, myard reactions? For reasons not worth going into, I'd like to be uh able to keep simple broths and soups safely warm for up to 18 hours.
+
+[19:55] Naturally they begin to deteriorate after this long, especially those with vibrant vegetable colors. Any tips or suggestions of something I could throw in, thanks, Paul. Now, I'm gonna have to break this down a little bit. Uh and you know, I know Paul, you probably don't have the time to call in during the show, but this is something I'd really like to kind of figure out exactly uh what what you mean here. Majard reactions, right, are the browning reactions that are um you know that typically go on, they're they're uh very complicated, but they have to do with reducing sugars, certain kinds of sugars uh in proteins, usually uh in the well always in the presence of not always, but usually in the presence of heat, right?
+
+[20:29] Typically higher heats. So we associate kind of toasty brown bread, you know, bread flavors, brown flavors, cooked flavors, and uh a lot of the flavors on the outside of roasted meats and things like that as are Myard uh style flavors, right? And the you know the brown on French fries, the crispy skin, all that. These are things we associate with with myard. These um reactions are indeed speeded up by um the addition of alkaline ingredients.
+
+[20:53] So, for instance, pretzels, famously pretzels are cooked in uh in alkaline water before they're baked to increase uh the the browning in them, and they also give a characteristic kind of alkaline taste. Um, uh also egg whites will brown if cooked for a long time, even though they're not cooked at a very, very high temperature because egg whites are alkaline, so that myard reactions speed it up in it and that's the that's the you know the the thing behind hymene eggs these eggs that are cooked for a long time and turn brown and so at the school you know we do a lot of cooking with eggs and pressure cookers and the eggs turn brown because of myard reactions. So yes basic conditions alkaline conditions which baking soda will produce uh do speed up um browning reactions now that's not the same browning reaction that happens in a in a vegetable soup so if you're doing a broth with vegetables in it and I presume you mean green vegetables right green vegetables we're talking about. So if you're doing uh like a vibrant green vegetable color, those right are not broken down because of myard reactions, right? So like an herb uh an her a blended herb for instance is breaking down because of an enzymatic reaction.
+
+[21:57] So you can stop those things from going brown initially by destroying the enzymes. Now the the the the problem is is that then further browning uh and kind of olive draviness takes on because the chlorophyll in those vegetables is being destroyed because there's there's a magnesium uh that's inside of the chlorophyll the magnesium gets displaced by a hydrogen ion usually uh in the presence of an of an acid right or over long you know long cooking times and that causes the chlorophyll to brown and you lose the vibrancy of the color right so I'm trying to figure out exactly which you know which one of these reactions you're worried about. Now adding something basic like uh like you know baking soda or something to a green vegetable broth or puree should preserve the chlorophyll. Now one of the reasons not to add um you know uh you know baking soda to if you're cooking let's say green beans or broccoli to the water, one of the reasons against it is because although the the green is going to be very well preserved because the the magnesium's not going to get displaced from the chlorophyll, is that they go mushy very, very quickly because the other effect that's going on is that the cell walls of these vegetables are made up of pectin and hemicellulose, and the pectin, right, is um is very resistant to breaking down uh in alkaline in uh acid conditions, but breaks down very, very readily in in alkaline conditions. So you add baking soda to water and you get very green, mushy vegetables.
+
+[23:21] You had acid to the cooking water and you get olive drab uh very you know firm vegetables. So it's like you can't win. But if you're doing a puree, right, then you don't care about the fact that it's gonna be mushy because you're gonna puree the sucker anyway. So you might as well add a pinch of baking soda. You just gotta make sure that you don't get any off-taste, and this should help preserve the green color for a lot longer.
+
+[23:43] Now, also the other thing is that if you store your um your your soups at a lower temperature, you should be able to preserve uh the color faster. Now, I haven't done any control test of storing a broth that's not uh clo uh not a chlorophyll-based broth. I haven't really done a control test on any of this. This is just off the top of my head. But uh, it would be interesting to do a um do a test where we um stored just in an open bane uh you know, a soup at you know 70 degrees C, let's say, for 12 hours to see what happened to it.
+
+[24:19] I don't know how much more appreciable browning you would get, other than maybe you're also getting uh increased browning during uh during evaporation, like a concentration. I'd have to see. But I I'm kind of interested in the problem. So if you email another question into the radio, maybe more specifically, like what recipe you're dealing with and exactly kind of what's going wrong, I'd love to take a look at it, because it seems like an interesting problem, right, Nastasha? Um so anyway, uh, but that led me to another thing is that I did some uh more research on one of the products that we like to use uh is uh stuff called uh Thai red lime paste.
+
+[24:49] And Thai red lime paste is basically limestone, and I always thought that it was naturally red. Uh and there's been very little up till now that I've been able to find in the way of English language references on this Thai ingredient, other than it's used in uh soups and banana like this banana soup to preserve the cell wall of the banana. This goes back to the the mushiness, right? So um so what we do is we we use this Thai red lime paste, which you can get in an Asian grocery store. You put it into water, you shake it up, it settles out, and you use that water.
+
+[25:17] We vacuum inject it into bananas and it makes a banana stay firm even when you cook it. So you can make like a banana's foster, but the bananas they taste cooked and delicious and sweet, but they don't get mushy. And you can also beat the crap out of them in the pan without them breaking apart. So it's one of our favorite recipes. We've been doing it for years.
+
+[25:32] I do it all the time. I love it, bang bang bang, right? But I haven't really found up till now any English language references on it. I always assumed that the the stuff was uh natural, uh, you know, that naturally red. But I found finally an English language blog called She Simmers, and it's written by someone named Leela, but I don't know her last name.
+
+[25:49] And uh she said that the red is actually turmeric that they add to it. Although I don't I don't know if that's true or false. I don't know, but that's what she said. And she also made some interesting points that it's uh that the Thai red lime, and I hadn't thought about this before, is basically calcium uh calcium hydroxide, uh lime, which is the same stuff that's used for nixtil mo nixtolamization, right? Which is the you know, the process used to turn corn into masa and hominy by soaking in an alkaline condition.
+
+[26:17] And I've been wanting to go get cow, which is what they use in Mexico to do this for a long time, and we've had it in our fridge the entire for all these years, we've had the nix nixtamalizing product in our fridge in the form of Thai red lime paste for years and years, and we've never done it. So we're gonna have to run our nixtimalization experiments with the Thai red lime, see what see what we get out of it. But she also does something very interesting, which is that if you add it to fry batters, right, the fry batter stays crispy after it's been fried for a long time, a lot longer than it would if you just used regular water in the batter. So I'm gonna try to do some tempura batters with this Thai red lime and see whether we can get a batter that does indeed blind, taste crispier with this versus not, because I was not able to find any papers, any you know, any scientific papers on adding alkaline uh ingredients to uh to batters to try and you know increase their crispiness. I wasn't able to find it.
+
+[27:12] Um so I don't know. I'm gonna do some research. That's something that you know could be very, very, very interesting, but it's you know it's more crap we have to do. What do you think, Nastasha? Yes, good stuff?
+
+[27:21] Yes, good stuff. But this brings me back to the other point about the about the uh this stuff, this uh lime, is that being calcium and being hydroxide, it's both alkaline but has calcium present. And uh, and what is calcium do to cell walls? Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, uh she's been around. Calcium strengthens the pectin, right?
+
+[27:41] So, in the presence of uh a lot of calcium, you're gonna cross-link the um you're gonna cross-link the uh the cat the pectin in there, and it's gonna be resistant to breaking down either by heat or or anything else. And so what I'm wondering is if you use calcium hydroxide as your addition to the boiling water, can you get a vegetable that stays green and is also crunchy? So that is another round of experiments we have to run. I was not able to find anything on that either. But now I only searched for half an hour or so, uh, which is part of the reason that I literally ran in here panting with my hands frozen off uh about ten seconds before the radio show started, much to Nastasha's uh chagrin.
+
+[28:18] Uh the other reason was I couldn't find any gloves on the way out, and that's why I, you know, my hands, I feel like I could crack them with a hammer and they break into tiny little pieces. But um, so a lot of interesting uh experiments were brought up by your question about uh vegetables and broths and uh my art and keeping things green. Uh anyway, uh since it's uh it's about time, we'll go to our second commercial break. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[28:47] How you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? Thanks so much, bone, brother. How you feel, mate?
+
+[28:54] I'll feel all right. I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down. Look at him!
+
+[29:06] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We've gotta take you high.
+
+[29:32] All right. Yeah, that's your own man. We gotta take the high? Yeah. Now I won't have a body.
+
+[29:50] And then I want to wave me and let's go into it. All right. All right, all right. I'm gonna get that belly with a low hole on over there. Yeah.
+
+[29:58] Take us hold on, over. Bread! Bad! Bam! Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[30:26] Still time to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Uh so we got a question from Kurt that he had a question about egg substitute. And uh he says as his grandparents have gotten older, he started to watch salt, fat, and cholesterol on their diets much more. Although I have to tell you that contrary to health, like if I get old enough, I'm gonna eat nothing.
+
+[30:46] Of course, I already eat nothing but fats and all this stuff. Anyway, if I make it to that age, I'm definitely gonna start loading up on all the stuff people tell me not to eat. Uh but uh they've tried to use egg substitute and are generally happy with the result in omelets and scrambled eggs, but less so in baking. Can you tell me more about what is in egg substitute as well as uh when is appropriate to use instead of egg? Now, the only thing I know much about egg substitutes is egg substitutes, uh you know, like actual straight up single ingredients that are used to substitute for certain properties in eggs, right?
+
+[31:17] So it looks like you're talking about an egg substitute that can literally be substituted for an egg in like an omelet. I'm more used to dealing with products that are substitutes for eggs, uh, like in in in baking, where you know you say, okay, I have an egg protein that needs to hold something in a in a specific, you know, way. So like I need to imitate the foaming properties of egg white, let's say. So then I would say, okay, then I know what to add. I'm gonna add s some com uh something like a Xanthan for thickening, and I'm gonna add uh some sort of aeration agent, like a methyl cellulose versus whip something like that right so like that kind of stuff I know about or you know Xanthan to hold things together or you know either in gluten or an egg replacing recipes uh or you know I need something that's gonna provide the emulsification of egg yolks so I'm gonna add probably soy less than or something like that.
+
+[32:01] Like these are these are things that I kind of like understand um but like straight up egg replacer I don't have a lot of um a lot of information on off the top of my head so I'm gonna but the thing is do we have a way to actually make sure that I look this up before next week's uh radio sti uh show or not? You keep the question yes keep so we'll just we'll pump it over into next week's questions. But it's it's something I'm I'm interested in looking I'm trying to figure out like what they could make you know that actually looks like an egg on the plate that works like an egg on the plate and why it wouldn't work in baking. So this is something I'm willing to uh investigate further and deserves more time than I uh was able to give it this week Kurt so I will uh check up on that Nastasha will pump that question over on to the next week and another one I got that was kind of difficult from uh Scott Koleric is um uh you know we talked I think a little bit on the Thanksgiving episode about the dragon's beer candy the poshmuck right didn't we? Yeah yeah and so in that recipe uh you know in which this goes to cooking candies um in that recipe you add acid at the beginning of the recipe and what happens is is that the the longer it cooks the acid uh continues to what's called invert the sugar it breaks the sucrose which is a disaccharide down into two monosaccharides um and that reaction is sped up by the presence of acid.
+
+[33:17] So the longer you cook in the presence of acid, the more you break the sugar down into uh the sucrose down into into uh you know glucose and fructose, and that has the um those sugars don't harden up the same way when when the sugar cools down, when the sugar syrup cools down, and so you end up getting a softer product. The longer it cooks, the softer it is. Uh so um Scott was working for a chocolatier, or is working for a chocolateer uh part-time, uh as a chocolatier, I should say, and uh he is told that the faster you cook a caramel to a certain temperature, the softer the product will be. So it's the exact opposite of what we've what we've been uh you know, what we have with regular sugar syrups, right? Uh and so uh he says, I understand that the the temperature in a candy is uh a function of boiling water off, so that as long as the accurate final temperature is reached, right, the product would be the same.
+
+[34:05] And this is something I think I probably also said on that on that thing is that the uh because I remember we also had a question on caramels or something like that. And it's true that uh if you cook to if if you if the only ingredients are sugar and water, and this is why maybe if I was talking about caramels last time, I'll have to look it up. You know, I probably spoke too soon. If the only ingredients are sugar and water, right, then the final temperature is strictly a function of uh of of you know how much water is in there, right? So no matter what, you know, the the the water content's gonna be the same once you reach uh the final the final temperature.
+
+[34:38] Uh and that may or may not be true if other ingredients are in there and changing, so and so altering the boiling point. Uh like if things break down and become soluble or no longer soluble, then they will will, or they will no longer affect the boiling point. I don't know how much that's going to affect the temperature, right? Um now the other problem is is that there's a lot of stuff in a caramel. There's milk solids, there's fats, there's all these other things, and each one of those right affects the final texture of your caramel.
+
+[35:07] And uh, I downloaded a couple scholarly articles, but didn't have a chance to necessarily wait wade through them. And I'm trying to figure I was trying to figure out why it is that cooking it for longer um is going to make it uh make it harder. And I haven't found any yet, except for to say that, you know, that that the sugar is only the the sugar the sugar and how much it's cooked is only one of the things that's affecting the texture. Like something that's going on, as you said, with the with the milk uh milk solids might be uh a factor, like if you cook the milk solids too quick or they don't get converted enough, that might affect the texture. Something going on with the fat, although I doubt it might affect the texture uh based on that.
+
+[35:45] You know, you had posited that you know the there was one cook that you that used to work at this chocolatier where he used to cook uh very, very quickly and he always had to cook to a higher temperature because his caramels were coming out too hard, and less uh too what'd you say, too soft. So you needed to cook them no, sorry, too hard. Anyway, again, getting all bam you know confused. But the um the point is is that I would guess that if you cook it really quickly, you'd liable to go to a higher temperature anyway. Uh you know, I I think it would be unusual where cooking something faster means you got to a lower temperature because I would think that you'd have hotter stuff at the bottom and when you pull it you get a higher rise.
+
+[36:20] But I don't know. So it looks like it's probably a more complex uh more complex problem than you know than first blush looks at. And unfortunately I was I would have talked about it with uh Harold McGee. I spoke to him yesterday, but he's kind of in transit. He's finished up his whirlwind book tour.
+
+[36:35] By the way, Harold McGee has a new book out called what's it called? The keys to good cooking, right? Yeah. Keys to good cooking. Was uh was on the New York Times bestseller, Harold McGee, good friend of uh cooking issues, good friend of the blog, good friend of ours.
+
+[36:46] And um so go buy his book. But anyway, next time I speak to him, which is gonna be at the end of the week, I'm gonna try and ask him about this because it might be something that he researched in you know in all of the uh all the stuff that he's been doing recently for his book. But it it is an interesting question, and you have me uh a little bit uh stumped. So anyway, uh so that is uh all of the questions for uh today. And so I want to uh uh this is a personal plea.
+
+[37:13] If any of you out there have good, and going back to the raw food route raw food challenge, if any of you out there have any suggestions for me, should we write this stuff up on the blog as we do it or no? Nastasha doubts that I'm actually gonna do it. Nastasha doesn't think that sh but not for the reason that you guys out there. You guys out there in Radio Land think I'm a welcher, which means that you think I'm a bad, a poor qual a low quality human being, as my son would say. Yeah, no, I don't think you're a welcher.
+
+[37:38] Well I just think you have a lot. Yeah, uh a lot of stuff to do. Yeah. Okay. Well, look, the fact of the matter is is that it doesn't matter.
+
+[37:48] Like it like a welcher is a welcher. If you say you're gonna do something and you don't, then you're a welcher. It doesn't matter if you're too busy, because the same thing saying, well, I would pay you, but I don't have the money. No, you're a welcher. You made a bet and you couldn't deliver.
+
+[38:01] So we have to do it, right? Um the question is are we gonna have the time to write about it? That's the that's the thing. But I'd like to write about the ex the experience of trying to trying to go raw food. But we're definitely then let me write about the experience.
+
+[38:15] Well, okay, so uh for those of you out here, this is a little insight into into the cooking issues team and why we don't write very often on the blog. And that and the reason is is because I'm a huge jerk, right? And so I have an extr uh I have an extremely narrow point of view about kind of uh everything. And so I'm I'm hard to work with when it comes to writing things. Is this true or false?
+
+[38:40] That's true. That's true. Uh including with myself. The only person harder on uh me is my wife, who's maybe one of the great editors. I mean, you know, maybe not as good as her sister, Miley, my sister-in-law who runs the Food Network magazine, but pretty pretty damn good.
+
+[38:54] My wife is a vicious editor. Um, but aside from stylistically, which I'm horrible at, you know, um content-wise, I'm pretty particular. So uh I don't know. What would you would you what would you want to write about? Uh the experience.
+
+[39:09] The expensive from from my perspective. See, for well, but like about what? Like it couldn't be a good idea. I mean the recipes, the you know, day one, day two, day three, how we feel, you know, the difference between maybe we should start a separate blog. Because we're not about our feelings.
+
+[39:23] I know, but I think people can't do it. Who cares about our feelings? Why would you listen? You guys tell us, but I don't think anyone cares about my personal feelings about anything. I think they do.
+
+[39:32] I don't think so. I mean, why do I I don't care about I I hardly care about my personal feelings about things. Why should anyone else? What you've seen all feelings. I've seen all feelings.
+
+[39:40] No, the thing is like I like here look, here's the thing. And this is maybe I'm gonna offend everyone now, probably, but you know, one of the reasons, you know, I like that the my whole issue with blogs is is trying to like strike this balance between um you know serving yourself and serving and serving other people. I don't necessarily see the value in saying what what I had for dinner tonight. You know what I mean? Unless it's instructive in some way.
+
+[40:08] Like I'm not a good enough writer or a good enough photographer where you know I could spin a yarn about what I ate tonight and have it be, I think, of any use to anyone. You know what I mean? So the the th the question is, you know, how do we do it without becoming self-indulgent? There has to be some sort of learning process. Which means, which is really irritating, is that we're gonna have to develop some sort of new technique or ingredient having to do with raw food stuff.
+
+[40:32] Nastasha's now banging her head against the microphone because she knows what this means is she's gonna have to go through hell because now we're gonna have to come up with some fancy new technique with you know regarding uh raw foods or something. Is that is that your your worry? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[40:50] But uh, you know, if I if I have to languish in testing hell for a month, it's much better than being a welcher. This has been Cooking Issues. We'll come back next week to answer more of your questions. Oh, you dare
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+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, the show where we answer all of your cooking related questions. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, and I'm here with uh Nastasha. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Today's show is being brought to you by TechServe for all of your Macintosh-related technical needs.
+
+[0:49] They're at www.techserve.com, Tech with a K. And uh uh they're actually they're the sponsor, but they're giving away basically their time here uh to talk about the Lower East Side Ecology Center. And the Lower East Side Ecology Center is having its eighth annual uh after the holidays e-waste event uh with uh ten events uh in January. And uh to find out where and when you know when they are, they're in the Lower East Side, which is where I live. Go to uh LES, that's like Lower East Side Ecology Center.org.
+
+[1:18] And they're gonna help uh, you know, put good use to all the equipment that you're gonna throw away after you get your new equipment uh after the holidays, right, Nastasha, something like that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, by the way, uh it it came to me through the grapevine uh that uh some listeners of the show believe that I somehow prevent Nastasha from speaking on uh on the radio. In fact, uh this is not the case.
+
+[1:43] I want all of your readers to know that I would be happy to have Nastasha speak more on the radio. It's that she she particularly does not want me to make her uh speak on the radio, so I might make her do some today just to prove that I am not purposely trying to hog all of the all of the air time. You know, you don't really those of you out there probably don't really know Nastasha that well. She likes to be kind of the the puppet master person in the background, you know, manipulating dials and wheels, doesn't like so much to uh to speak. She'll believe me.
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+[2:12] Believe me, when we are not on the radio, she more than makes up for speaking her mind. All right? I'll just put it that way. What do you think, Nastasha? Any any comments?
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+[2:22] Yes, that's true. Yeah. All right. Well, in in the light of trying to get you to say more, we had an email response. By the way, for those of you that didn't listen last time or any time, you know, uh, we are uh, you know, basically a meat eating uh folk, we're a meat eating crew.
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+[2:37] I lost a bet uh about uh that you know someone couldn't produce uh any raw chocolate that I would find even remotely palatable. I lost this bet. And as a result, uh I'm gonna have to uh and Nastasha decided to join me, although she doesn't have to. Uh I'm going to cook and eat, well, cook. I'm going to prepare and eat a raw uh you know raw food diet for a week, probably sometime in late January or February.
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+[3:01] Um, uh last week I had said that maybe I would just do, you know, I could eat like raw fish. That's raw, right? Technically raw. And then uh someone uh emailed us uh you know a response to that, basically calling us giant sissies. Um more me, because Nastasha hadn't said anything because of course I never allow her to speak.
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+[3:19] So you want to re read the uh read the email there. This comes from Pablo Escollar. The cooking issues team. I think you should go raw vegan because one, the raw chocolate bar you ate was mostly like was most most likely raw vegan. Two, it's typically what it meant by raw foods.
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+[3:36] Three, it would be awesome to see how you innovate inside of these constraints. Four, a diet where you can eat raw meat and fish for a week just doesn't sound that hard. That's it, right? And it's hard. And he had the one request.
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+[3:44] Right. And then as far as the writing goes, I think if you do make it about personal experience, my only advice is don't make it sound too much like a post apocalyptic survivor story. Well Pablo, if it if if we don't make it sound like a post apocalyptic survivor story, it won't be like any other day in our lives. You had to visit us sometime, Pablo. And see we literally live in kind of a a small closet hole with no windows.
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+[4:17] So we don't like the the entire world could have crumbled around us and all we'll know is like the the piled up mass of junk and equipment that that we live in in this tiny closet. So our normal lives i you know you know is basically that a post apocalyptic problem. So it won't have anything to do with the raw food but it might have that tone anyway, right Nastash well he also says he tried to do it for a week and it's pretty hard especially in New York in winter. Oh, because you can't get the good uh the good fruits and whatnot well we could do it. It'll do it.
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+[4:44] You know i it i it's just gonna take a lot a lot of research and that's the reason I have to put it off for so long uh is I'm gonna have to read you know basically every book I can find on the subject 'cause that's you know that's the way that's the way I roll Nastasha's rolling her eyes because she knows it's gonna be a huge pain in her behind. But I agree with you Paul uh Pablo rather and uh sorry and uh we will do it we will do raw vegan because you're correct it's more of a challenge and why not take on the challenge. Uh I told my wife this uh last night she's like I'm not eating raw I'm not eating raw food. And um, you know, for a week and I said, Well, uh, what are you gonna do about it? I'm the only person that cooks in the whole house or prepares food, I keep on saying cooking.
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+[5:24] You know what I mean? So, like she's kind of like, other than when she's at work, she has no choice, really. Right. Right? So she's gonna do it.
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+[5:31] Well, I mean, I don't understand her choices. Pizza. Order pizza and not eat what I'm eating. I see the most see here's the thing, right? It food is all about being social.
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+[5:41] So if you you know, like eating something separate from what my family is eating is kind of the the worst idea in the world. I would rather eat nothing and go on a Gandhi fast than prepare something separate for myself and the rest of my family. Like the whole point of eating with your family is you eat together, not a bunch of separate micro meals, you know, that yeah, it doesn't that doesn't make any sense. Anyway, so yes, she's gonna she's gonna eat uh raw food with me for a week, and she'll probably stock up on uh hamburgers or whatnot when she's at work. Okay.
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+[6:11] Uh I had a question last week that I did not answer uh on eggs. And the the question was uh what is in egg substitutes and uh because you know they he was having some problems uh with baking, using the egg substitutes for baking. So I did some research on it, and uh there's basically two different classes of uh egg substitute. The the one, which I think is the one you're using if you're actually using it to make omelets, is more like it's called uh like egg beaters, things like that. And they're not really a hundred percent egg substitute, they're not typically vegan, they're egg whites, and then they add uh flavoring and uh coloring and some other functional stuff to make it act more like an egg when you're scrambling it.
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+[6:49] So what's in the egg beaters, it's 99% egg white apparently, and then the rest of it's color spice, salt, onion powder, xanthan gum, and guar gum. The xanthan and the guar are gonna modify the properties of the uh egg white and make it a little less hard uh and also you know, uh maybe give it some of the proper texture when it's being uh you know poured at poured out uh in into your pan. So that's what's gonna make it kind of act more like an omelet. The coloring is obviously gonna make it more, you know, um more omelet colored uh and the onion and whatnot is I guess just flavors that they think you want in there. Uh so that is basically the egg substitute, you know, if you're just if that's the one you're using, egg beaters.
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+[7:25] Now, the reason that doesn't work well in baking for you is because they haven't added one of the prime things that is in uh eggs, and that is lecithin, right? So eggs contain a good bit of fat, which also you know help in baking to you know in you know make it taste better and and uh their their have functional properties, but there's the emulsifier lecithin uh and other different various uh phospholipids and things in there. So uh if you want to use those in conjunction uh you know with um with soy lecithin, which you can buy, right? That you can add a little bit of soy lecithin, and you'll probably get back a lot of the uh the same properties that you would get in an egg when you're when you're baking. So I would add, I don't know, uh it's so hard to tell.
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+[8:12] I mean, I would add, you know, maybe half a percent by by volume or a percent on egg weight b uh volume of soy lecithin to try and get that um get that that texture back. I would buy the powdered soy lecithin so you don't have to um uh you don't have to heat it too much to get it in. You can with you know, blend it in with a stick blender and you should be able to get it in there, and that might help your your baked goods uh perform better. Now they make now the the the reason why they probably don't put the soy lecithin in there is because they don't want to add a soy product because it's gonna knock out a whole segment of their market if they put a soy product in, and most people aren't using it for baking. Most people who are using egg substitutes for baking are doing it because they want to go vegan.
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+[8:54] They tip they don't want eggs. Either they're allergic to eggs or they want an actual vegan product. And so those are typically powders. And they're usually mixtures of modified starches like tapioca and potato starch. Uh there's the the NRG uh is like one of the famous brands people use.
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+[9:11] Uh and it contains basically tapioca starch, uh, uh potato starch, calcium carbonate, which is uh a leavening agent. Uh I don't know why they use calcium carbonate and not other ones, but typically I would use that as a leavening agent, uh, but it's kind of specific. Citric acid, uh, sodium car carboxy methyl cellulose, which is uh modified cellulose product, which is going to provide viscosity in the batter, and methyl cellulose, which is going to provide viscosity in the batter, and also some gelation when uh the product is heated, and that's gonna provide a little bit of structure that uh the egg would be providing uh w while the batter is hot, while it's you know, while it's hot and being cooked, so when it cools down, whatever starches in your baked thing will have time to set. Now, I I did a cake with Johnny Azzini from John George based on this, you know, years ago, where we literally doped a whole whole ton of uh methylcel, not a whole ton, you know, like you know, point eight percent, into uh a cake and foamed it uh without adding a lot of uh egg white because we wanted to produce a sponge batter that didn't have that kind of protein bite to it, and so we use methylcel for the same property. So they're you know, they're basically including something that gels when it heats, but ungels when it unheats.
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+[10:15] They're including thickeners uh and a little bit of a leavening agent because that's basically what eggs are doing in a in a baking system. So I hope this answers. Do you think that answers that I do a good job this week? Yes. Uh well, that's interesting.
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+[10:32] So if you go to pure, I like that Nastasha is all all she's been thinking about this entire time is whether she gets to drink when we're on the raw food diet. Uh uh I believe you do. Uh the last time I was at uh Sarma's restaurant, uh pure pure food, right? Pure food, pure. Uh you know, they have wine, but you know, they they typically like all the wines were biodynamic and all that.
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+[10:53] I I mean uh we don't have to go biodynamic though, right? That's not part of the part of the list. I don't think so. I don't understand. I like again, I'm gonna get a bunch of h of hate, you know, whatever X, Y, and Z, but I don't really understand the biodynamic thing myself.
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+[11:06] It's like I understand I underst look. It's true that old school farming methods like you know, like the lunar cycles and all this other thing, and like planting based on like X, Y, and Z weather science. Sure, I'm sure they have some sort of basis in fact generated by centuries of trial and error, uh, and you know, wisdom handed down from the ages. Boom. Yes.
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+[11:25] Do I believe this? Yes. But like taking a horn and like packing it with manure and then burying it in your field doesn't make any dang any dang sense to me at all. You know what I mean? Like that seems like hocum.
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+[11:38] No? Yeah. But but I think that, and I've said this before, I think what's good about it is that if you're spending the time to go out in your fields and bury a horn full of donkey poo in your field, I think it means that you're paying more attention to your crops, which is probably gonna make you have a better product. So it's not like that you don't necessarily end up making a better product this way. It's just that um, you know, it's just uh you know, it's not because of the horn and the donkey poo.
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+[12:02] The other thing that's really interesting is I think that a lot of people who are uh are interested in in you know, biodynamics, organics of they never do blind taste tests. I'll never forget this. I went to a wine tasting and uh the you know, the person was handing out these uh completely organic biodynamic wines, right? And they were saying, you know, this wine was produced in a field, and the field is overgrown with all sorts of natural vegetation, and it was awesome, all this. It was so is full of life and then crickets and frogs and birds and you know, all this stuff, right?
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+[12:32] And then he's like, and the one next door, it looked totally barren. They had used you know chemicals on it, and there's nothing growing but the grapes. It was you know, completely unlifelike, there was no blah blah blah. And I was like, oh, wow. So you tasted them side by side, and you really notice a difference in the wine.
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+[12:49] So he's like, ah, why would I taste that wine? I was like, what? What? The whole point is you taste the two wines and you prove that your method does a better job. So we need to find someone who actually knows that situation.
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+[13:03] You can find two producers with very similar soils and climates and varieties, like everything same same, but one's doing the biodynamic action and one's not, and then we do a side by side. That's interesting to me. Would that be interesting to you? Yeah. So if any of you out there have this capability, please call uh or uh write in.
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+[13:20] So anyway, let's go to our uh first commercial break. But remember to call in your questions to 718 497 2128 718 497 2128 cooking issues. How you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good?
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+[13:34] So much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I'm feeling all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella?
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+[13:44] Sure getting down. Look at him! We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[14:02] We're gonna have a bump good time. We've gotta take you high. All right. You wanna do it again? Yeah, that you won't.
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+[14:19] We've gotta take you high. Now I won't have a body. Let Brad blow up my two cores. And then I want to wave you and let's go into it with dinner. Yeah, alright.
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+[14:38] I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get a take us higher. Yeah. Take us higher. Brad!
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+[14:49] Brad! Brad! Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling your questions to you. 718497-2128.
+
+[15:00] That's 7184972128. Coming to you live today from the refrigerated trailer that is Roberta's Pizzeria Radio Station. Please come out and eat at the restaurant, though. The restaurant's nice and toasty. It's just the radio station that's uh a refrigerated storage unit.
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+[15:16] Perhaps Patrick's storing his meat here from the uh Heritage Food, and that's why it has to be so cold. Okay. Um now I have a question, uh second time question from Max. Uh, and again, some of it uh is unprintable. Uh so he says he, you know what, I we used a phrase, and maybe Nastasha can say it so I don't have to say it this time for stick blender.
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+[15:37] Dildo stick. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And uh he said, don't worry about that, but it you know, if you if you if you don't want to use that, he gives me a word. I'm not really sure what what language it is, but um I I'm a little worried, knowing Max's questions.
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+[15:51] I'm a little worried to actually say it for fear that I might be saying something, but he says it translated to lopsided carrot as a as the stick blender. That's the slang he uses anyone. Anywho, uh, he has an interesting question. Uh and his question is, uh, why not pig's milk? It and this, Max, is an excellent question, and you you've been worried about it for for years, as have I, although you seem to have actually, you know, arrived at the same answer I did, and uh also, you know, spoken to more people about it, perhaps at more pig farmers.
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+[16:17] Because if you spoke to at least one, you've spoken to more than I have. But the um uh the the the question that always comes to mind is we have yaks milk cheese, we have camels milk cheese, we have cow's milk cheese, we have goats' milk cheese, we have sheep's milk cheese. Can you think of any other animals? They like no, right? I mean, basically m domestic animals, uh, they make milk and you get cheese out of them.
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+[16:41] Why is there no pig milk and or and or pig cheese, right? Now, uh the kind of the answer I'd always you know come up with in my head and spoken to, you know, s I actually have spoken to some pig farmers. But the the the answer is is that hey, look, when a pig gives birth, you use the milk uh from that pig to feed the piglets straight up, you know, and then you take them off of the uh when they take them off, you wean the wean the pig off of uh meaning the pig stops lactating so that you can have pigs again, because pigs, unlike other animals, are really meat machines. You know what I mean? It's not they're not kind of multi-use animals.
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+[17:20] I mean we get leather out of it, sure, boars bristles and and whatnot, but compared to the cow where we get milk, where we get leather, you know, a lot of leather, uh, or compared to the you know, the sheep or or the goat where we can get wool and we can get meat and we can get milk, or the chicken where we can get meat and egg, the pig is a meat machine. You know, it takes garbage and c well it used to take garbage and crap that you would otherwise not be able to use and convert it into meat that your family can eat. And so I think the idea was is that you want to fatten up the little pigs to get them into meat uh as fast as possible. Another interesting thing that I did not know uh Max and thank you for bringing it up is um that pigs don't produce nearly the amount of milk that uh cows produce you know per per body per you know percent body weight uh well actually maybe for percent body weight but he Max says that the average pig is going to produce 13 pounds of milk a day as opposed to a cow that produces 65 pounds of milk per day. Yeah but you know what Max a a cow is a whole hell of a lot bigger than a pig.
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+[18:22] I mean a lot unless you have a giant like super fat pig. So if you were going to breed a fairly young uh a sow that was like on the range of like 200 pounds or something like that like which is normal about slaughter weight you're gonna breed at once I mean to get you know 13 pounds of milk out of that as opposed to you know a cow that weighs you know well over a thousand pounds doesn't seem like such a bad like such a bad trade right I think a lot of it goes to the fact that you know they just use it to feed the the pigs. Now if I had someone with a lot of money sure I would either mechanically you know feed those pigs something else if that's even possible I don't even know and then just take the milk. I mean Max I think that you know next next I don't know where you where you live but next time you're around maybe we can find someone and just run an experiment. I mean you could probably pay a farmer the like if you if you paid the farmer the entire cost of the litter of pigs that was going to be fed off of this pig, I am you know certain that he or she would sell the milk and then you could taste it, see whether it's delicious and uh and make some cheese out of it.
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+[19:20] I mean, um, you know, uh I think that's entirely entirely reasonable, right? What do you think? There was to you know, not to get you know gross about it, but there was a chef, I forget who it was in New York, who was uh using his wife's breast milk uh to prepare things, but I think that was just a gimmick. I mean, that's gotta be a gimmick. I mean, I've you know, I have two kids.
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+[19:42] Listen, uh no, I have two kids, and I I'll tell you, you know, that if you if you have kids and and your your wife or or you, if you're a woman, you know, had to basically, you know, pump milk so that you could go to work and then feed the kid the milk, then you know, this stuff is like a super precious commodity. This is not something that you're taking to the restaurant and turning into dairy products. This is like liquid gold that you treasure and when you accidentally leave one out and it and it goes bad on the counter, you you know, you you s you know, you you you're you know, racked with grief and and horror and pain, you know what I mean? So it's not like something that I think you would normally normally do. But if a chef can do that, then you can definitely get some pig milk.
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+[20:23] And if you get your hands on some, Max, please, you know, let me in on it. At least call me, send me an email, and tell me how the stuff worked out because uh, you know, I'm dying to know, right? Nastasha's not saying anything. I I told you she doesn't want to speak on the air. It's not me.
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+[20:40] It's not me. Um what? Okay. So uh hey, look, this is all in good tone, by the way. This is still a family show.
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+[20:48] I've not said anything. Anyway. Uh Ben writes in and says, Some recipes, particularly uh particularly many Middle Eastern recipes for basmati rice and most Asian recipes for short grain rice, call for you to rinse, soak, and or drain rice before cooking. Other rices and recipes tell you strictly never to wash rice. What does washing do for the final product?
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+[21:08] Is there any reason to use uh one rice uh washing method over another? Does the type of rice affect this decision, the temperature of the water, etc., etc.? Yes. There. No.
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+[21:19] So there's the problem is is that every culture uh has their own style of rice cooking and also their own style of rice that they're using. Here in the U.S., right, if you're if you're using a um an enriched rice that they enrich with uh, you know, with with you know nutrients and stuff like that, a lot of them are basically dusted on. So then if you were to rinse the rice, you would rinse off all of that all of that stuff. Now, that's not an issue so much if you're using uh rice that hasn't been enriched, or if you use rice that's been enriched with uh, you know, I think they have one where they spray it like almost like a wax or an oil base in it or something like that, where it stays in better with rinsing. So I think when someone tells you specifically specifically not to rinse it, what they're doing is they're uh basically saying don't wash off the nutrients, I would guess, right?
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+[22:06] Now the reason to rinse rice is because during the milling process of rice, uh there is excess uh bran and starch that's on left on the outside of the rice. There's also, you know, some of the rice is processed in some pretty nasty conditions. You know, you know, it could have twigs, it could have rocks, it could have dirt, it could have, you know, animal or other types of bad products in it. So uh rinsing is a good step to clean it out. And in fact, if you take uh rice and rinse it, uh most any rice that you can get, the rice turns cloudy really quickly, which means that there's a lot of soluble starch that's coming off of it, or at least some sort of soluble powder.
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+[22:49] Back in the day, they also told you to rinse it because uh when they were milling it or uh and s and sending it out, they would have uh a little bit of talcon to uh increase the kind of whiteness and also I think as a milling aid, and you need to wash the talc out. So the rinsing step is most often to get rid of starch that's on the uh outside or that might that might you know interfere with things. And uh so you know if you take a Japanese rice, right, which is somewhat sticky to begin with, but you don't want it, you don't want the grains to be all glopped together, right? Then you're in a situation where, hey, look, you're gonna do a lot of rinsing of this rice, especially because they don't cook it in a lot of boiling water, right? There's not that much point in um in rinsing your rice if you're going to cook it in an excess of boiling water, like it's done in some in some in Indian recipes.
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+[23:35] Because uh if you're gonna cook it in an excess of boiling water, right, the starch that is going to come off is gonna be relatively diluted unless it's quite dirty, in which case maybe you have to rinse it anyway. But if you're gonna cook it in uh either steamed or small amount of water, right, like like you would like a small amount of water for Japanese cooking, if you don't wash off that rice and there's any starch on the outside, then it's gonna become sticky because the rice already has that that medium grain rice already has a bit of stickiness to it. So to get it to be exactly the right texture, you want to wash it until the water runs clear and there's no more starch coming off of it. And that's where those instructions come from. Now, um you know, other types of rice, I don't think it's gonna matter one way or the other uh too much.
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+[24:15] So for instance, like you know, and and and coming to soaking and cooking technique, a lot depends on the on the type of rice. Soaking right your rice as opposed to washing it, you wash it and then you might soak it. Soaking it is helpful in situations where you want to either not use as much fuel because you want to get some of the water in before you start cooking, or it also helps because any sort of water pre-soaking into the rice is gonna make the cook time quicker and also more even. So if you have a rice, it tends to split open on the outside before the inside is cooked, right? Then if you soak it beforehand, you're going to get a much uh faster and more even cook, and the rice is going to come out better.
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+[24:55] Similarly, with a sticky rice that's steamed, right, you soak it beforehand because if you don't, it's going to be hard for the steaming method to uh to get the uh you know get more moisture in. So the pre-soak on a steaming thing like that really helps cooking uh sticky rice. Now, on a parboiled rice, right? The reason why you can boil parboiled rice in a lot of water for a long time, and you know, it gets a bad name in this country because it's called converted rice, you know, like Uncle Ben's converted bran rice. It gets a bad name here because people think it's some sort of newfangled like like bull schnazz.
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+[25:27] But in fact, right, it's uh an ancient and fantastic technique where you take whole rice, whole, you know, in still in the hull, and you boil it for a period of time in the hull, and you actually increase the nutrient content of your rice by boiling in the hull because you get some of the well, so they say, I haven't really actually read the studies, but you uh you know, you get some of the nutrient from the hull into the rice. Also, you pre gelatinize some of that rice starch. Then when you cool it down, it uh what's called retrogrades, recrystallizes, and becomes resistant to swelling and bursting again. So parboiled rice actually doesn't necessarily cook faster. The ones that cook faster are also uh sometimes parboiled and then pre-boiled again and dried, right?
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+[26:10] So that they're basically they're pre cooked, which is different really from parboiled, and they cook very fast, like minute rice, things like that. But traditional parboiled rice, which they have a you know, a lot of Indian rices that are parboiled, uh, don't actually uh cook uh faster, I don't think, although I'd have to go back and check it. It's been a long time since I've looked at a recipe. But um the interesting thing about them is that they don't rupture or break apart. The grains stay firm and together, even if they're cooked for a long time, and even if they're cooked in a lot of water.
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+[26:40] So there it's a very good technique to get uh individual grains. They have a lot of bounce, they're harder in texture, even though they're cooked, uh, because the starches basically you want to think of them as being kind of preset or or you know, kind of strengthened this uh by this this technique of parboiling, uh cooling it, uh starch retrograding, then milling it and and then cooking it again. Uh so there's a lot to do and uh it with rice. It's extremely complicated. It's based on you know the type of rice you're using, the culture you're dealing with, and and and the recipe you're using.
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+[27:13] I think if your rice is coming out sticky, you're gonna be better off, and you don't want it to be, you maybe you could benefit from some rinsing. If you don't want to rinse, right, uh, and you do like Japanese style, you can buy what's called the rinse-free rice, and it has a Japanese word, which if I had it in front of me, I would attempt to pronounce, but I won't because I won't pronounce it out of my head because I'll get it wrong, and then everyone will laugh at me. But rinse-free rice uses a kind of newer uh milling technology that allows you to have a Japanese rice that has all of that uh extra starch and and and brand coating on the outside completely uh removed without the need for rinsing. Mushim, I'm not I'm not gonna try I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it. Anyway, uh so it it all depends.
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+[27:53] I wish I could have a hard and fast answer for you, but uh it's there is no hard and fast answer. It's just knowing what the variables are and um kind of how they how they interact. Um is that useful at all, you think? Yeah. Yeah?
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+[28:07] Yes. Yeah. All right. All right, we'll go to our second commercial break. Call in your questions to 718 497 2128.
+
+[28:14] That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Oh, how you feel, brother? You feel good? So much bone, brother. How you feel, man?
+
+[28:26] I feel all right. I don't want to people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, yeah. Sure getting down.
+
+[28:37] We're gonna have a punk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Let's take them up, Brad.
+
+[28:54] We've gotta take you high. All right. Yeah, that's the wrong. We gotta take you high. Brother.
+
+[29:17] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two courses. And then I'm gonna wave you in. Let's go and fill that with dinner.
+
+[29:24] Now all right. Come on, get that belly with a little horn over there. Brad, get it, take us higher. Yeah. Take us higher.
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+[29:35] Brad. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call on your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-212-878-878-8. We heard from uh Ken Ingber.
+
+[30:02] He was the uh gentleman that uh called in about his uh his uh mom's turkey, uh which was left out in the stoop, I believe in was it Brooklyn or Queens? Brooklyn. Brooklyn. And uh and you know, the question was why didn't uh why didn't he die? And you know, I thought that was an interesting question, and so um, and he's still alive, thank God.
+
+[30:18] So he emailed us uh uh another one. He had a question about um the Araby. And the Araby is a coffee machine, I believe it's called an Araby. It's a coffee machine uh invented by the same guy that invented the it's not called an Araby, is it? It's called the the Aerobi, the little frisbee that came out like in the eighties that's like a little ring that you can throw like the length of a whole football field, even if you're like a tiny kid.
+
+[30:40] Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Jeez, man, I'm old. Anyway, so this guy invented a coffee machine. Uh uh, I guess it is called the Airby.
+
+[30:49] Anyway, so it's a coffee machine where he you know he he basically said, Look, uh, I want to increase the amount of pressure in uh in the brewing chamber so that I can force the coffee through and and thereby I guess get better extraction. So it's very simple mechanism. It's a piston that you drive the uh hot water through your through the puck, right? Uh and produce uh coffee. Now, the the question has always been, is this espresso?
+
+[31:14] And I I'm saying this, I still Nastasha, let's just buy one of these dang things. Are they expensive? They're like 40 bucks. We'll charge it to the school. Let's buy well anyway.
+
+[31:23] Well, no, seriously, we'll buy it and we'll experiment with it because I've gotten enough questions from it that I've never tried it, so I feel kind of like a moron every time I talk about it. But it's it's uh, you know, it it it's by all accounts a good product, but the question is does it make espresso? And my answer is uh no, because and and of course Ken calls me out on this and he goes, Well, part of the controversy is semantic because if you define espresso as a beverage brewed at 195, there's a range there, but yeah, at nine bars, also a range, with a mousetail out of the portafilter, then a device that brews at 175 degrees Fahrenheit, which is what the aerobia apparently does, with moderate hand pressure, it can't make espresso espresso. And that's true. Uh I that's what I'm saying, but I don't think it's merely semantic, because if you look at uh if you look at um the book um The Chemistry of Quality, Espresso Espresso, the Chemistry of Coffee by Andrea Ely, which is I believe available again.
+
+[32:14] It was uh unavailable for a couple of years and is available again. There are numerous charts and graphs showing extraction and the type of not just the the like how much is extracted, but what is extracted at varying different pressures and temperatures. So you're you know, it's not gonna be the same cup of coffee because brewing kinetics is extremely complicated. Uh and you know, in the new year, if I ever find time, I have a lot to do with with it with espresso and pressures and things like that. But it's extremely complicated.
+
+[32:44] So I'm not saying that it can't make a fantastic cup of coffee and maybe the best mocha style pot, you know, coffee ever. But I also wouldn't call, and I don't dislike by the way, mocha pot means those little kind of octagonal things that you put on your stove and the water boils up through them and makes coffee as mocha pot. Everyone know what I'm talking about. Um they're cheap, they're fine. Those things are they're fine, they're great.
+
+[33:06] They make a decent cup of coffee for what they are for a mocha cup of coffee, right? They are a short uh strong cup of coffee. However, to me, that does not mean that it is espresso. That is a different animal entirely, right? So I'm not saying it doesn't make a great cup of coffee.
+
+[33:23] And I and I I shouldn't even talk about it until I get one, but I feel like I should address your your question now. Um I don't feel that it could possibly make the same thing as uh as an espresso. At least not of course, nine tensity espresso you get out uh anywhere is direct anyway, and so you might as well make it any dang way because the people who make it you know care not a whit for how it's made or what it tastes like. You know? Yeah.
+
+[33:45] Like like nine nine t nine times out of ten you go and someone's pulling a shot in like fifteen seconds or forty-five seconds, and they don't really care that you know the you know what the shot time is, they're not really accurate with their dosing, they're not really accurate with their tamping, their grinders aren't adjusted properly. I mean, a any one of those variables throw off in your espresso is not gonna be the same, at which point, you know, maybe you might as well just make it out of a forty, you know, a forty dollar pot. Which is which is not to be disparaging on the forty dollar thing. I really want to get one experiment with it. Maybe maybe it'll change my life and you know, I'll throw away my La San Marco espresso machine.
+
+[34:20] Anyway, I don't know. Uh I uh but it definitely needs some experimentation. And he also pointed me to a really interesting um little uh thing on Coffee Geek, which is a fantastic website, by the way. I've I love Coffee Geek. Uh I've been going to it for a long, long time.
+
+[34:33] I lurk there, I never really comment, but it's a fantastic site. And um uh point to a person who's measuring their coffee extraction using a refractometer, which is I've heard about before, but I've never actually done it, and again, now I feel foolish for not having done it, because w one of the main you know, quality characteristics in coffee is how much stuff you're extracting out of the coffee bean, and the way one of the ways you could test this obviously is by measuring how much stuff other than water is in the coffee when you're done. And uh a lot of people use what's called a total dissolved solids meter that's basically measuring the conductivity to to do this. And instead, this other gentleman whose name escapes me, is using a refractometer, which seems like a fantastic uh technique and a really great way for someone at home or even in a restaurant to make sure that their coffee is staying on point, at least in terms of extraction. But remember, even at the same level of total extraction, right, out of coffee, it doesn't mean you're extracting the same thing, right?
+
+[35:29] At different temperatures, different things are going to extract differently. So if you get, let's say, whatever you're going to get, like, you know, 10% extraction out of the coffee, right? Bean, right? Let's say you get that. Well, who's to say that it's the same 10%?
+
+[35:44] You're just measuring, you don't know that you don't know the distribution of, you know, of the different elements that you're sucking out of the coffee and how that's affected by the pressure and the temperature. So to measure uh the performance of a machine strictly based on uh extraction in terms of what it reads on a refractometer, I think is missing what uh, you know, the full kind of gestalt of what's going on in espresso. And it also harks back to, you know, I think a real problem with all of food science, which is, you know, we often uh, you know, I read, I read food science, and you need to make metrics. You need to quantify what you're doing in order to have a result, in order to have repeatability, especially in industrial commercial scale. But often these measurements, which are trying to measure are very something very specific, like crispness, they're trying to measure like how, you know, how hard it is to break and deform a crust, let's say, or total dissolved solids, or any one of a number of things.
+
+[36:39] These metrics um are really measuring something that isn't a single variable, but are controlled by a wide variety of uh different things that are going on within food systems. I mean, the reason that food systems and drink systems are so interesting, other than the fact that they're delicious and we eat them every day, is that there's such a richness to be encountered with a very small number of ingredients, starting ingredients. And so, you know, it's very hard to get uh uh a set of metrics. It's actually going to work as well as looking at it with your eyes, feeling it with your hands, and tasting it with your mouth, because in the end, right, that is all we really care about, right? I mean, the the the repeatability, the metrics, the thermometers, all which I all love.
+
+[37:23] I love I said, because I love any gadget. Anyone knows me loves a I love any gadget. But the, you know, like all of that is only an aid uh to trying to uh you know get get to the best instrument of all, which is your tongue and your nose and your eyes. Uh so that's my my feeling. On the other hand, I'm gonna go out and get a refractometer that I can measure my coffee with.
+
+[37:45] Right? Mm-hmm. Anyway. Um so I think in the time that we have left, I will discuss uh uh alkal alkalinity and uh some interesting things I think that we've been working on. Last week, uh someone asked a question about Myard reactions, and I somehow got into a riff on Thai uh lime water, right?
+
+[38:04] Remember that? Yeah. And uh so uh I read this website uh by uh it's called She Simmers, she's a uh blog, and she had a uh you know a bunch of stuff on Thai cooking. I think her her f she is Thai or her family is Thai, and uh they use this uh limestone water, which is slaked lime, calcium hydroxide, and they do numerous things. I've used it for years to harden bananas up when I'm gonna you know make a foster or something like that, so that the bananas get a cooked taste but they don't break up.
+
+[38:30] Apparently, it can also be used for pumpkins. Uh but she uses it, and apparently it's traditionally to be used in frying batters as well. And I was extremely interested in uh in that because she says it makes it crispier now. Uh in a rice in a rice flour situation. Uh we have tested that and I haven't we haven't gotten any conclusive answers, right, Nastasha?
+
+[38:52] Right, yeah. I mean Nastasha preferred the one with the with the lime water in it because she likes the flavor of the lime water, which is reminiscent of pretzels or reminiscent of a tortilla, because it's got this calcium hydroxide, this lye kind of flavor that Nastasha really liked. But it didn't seem like it was any crispier. No. And it also didn't seem like it browned any faster.
+
+[39:13] I was thinking it was going to brown a lot faster because alkalinity accelerates myard reactions. Right. Well, yeah, we have to run all those again. Yeah, we have to again and again and again and again. Uh you know, because of that question on myard reactions, I'm now in like a probably a five-month K-hole of worried about alkalinity and noodles and um, you know, and batters and frying.
+
+[39:33] Because it turns out that that this lie, you know, the use of alkaline cooking methods is goes across uh kind of you know, the world and culture was was used in various places completely separately from each other. So when I started reading about this Thai red lime paste and it came to my you know attention that it's basically just calcium hydroxide, well, calcium hydroxide is cal, right? Is what the what is used in um you know, you know, south of the border here, uh Mexico and Central America uh to and you know, I guess South America to uh nixdomilize corn, right? And so uh nyxtamalization is the reason why everybody who lived here isn't dead, right? Because uh it you know, w if your main staple is corn, right, uh and you don't know how to nyxtamalize, which is also the best word in the English language, right?
+
+[40:28] It's not even English, but this is the best nixtimalization. That's like a that's an awesome word, am I right? Yeah. So if you if you don't uh uh and the way nixtimalization works is you take calcium hydroxide, you you put uh that in water with dried corn, uh you heat it for a while, and then you let it steep. And what happens is from a functional standpoint, uh it makes it easier to mill and to grind because it in uh back in the day they would be grinding uh the corn after it was uh you know boiled and soaked on something called uh matate mano, which is like this like stone thing with like uh the mono is like a square thing, and they would grind it that way directly from the corn grains into the masa that you would make the tortilla out of or whatever you were grinding it to make tamales or whatever.
+
+[41:14] And uh, and so I'm buying one by the way today. Yeah, anyway, going to Nastasha's neighborhood to buy one. Anyway, uh so the basically it was easier for them to mill. It also the alkalinity uh softened the husk on the outside of the of the corn and also thereby making it easier to mill. But uh the the process of boiling and soaking in uh in alkaline solution, because calcium hydroxide is alkaline, did two other things uh uh well, one more functional thing.
+
+[41:43] It made the dough easier to work. If you don't, if you just take cornmeal and mix it with water, it doesn't have the right texture uh of uh masa, right? Uh partially the boiling pre uh pre gelatinizes the starch a little bit, and so that helps the uh the dough stick together, provides some structure that it doesn't, it would, you know, you because there's no gluten, you need some structure in the dough. And so pre-gelatinizing some of the starch on the outside of the corn kernel in the beginning of the boiling procedure uh helps to do that. And also treating it with uh the the um alkaline solution, the calcium hydroxide, uh that also causes the starch to be able to hold the hold more water, right?
+
+[42:21] And so it inc improves the dough uh capability. So it holds more water, it's gonna feel drier for a particular uh for particular water concentration, and it all all in all makes the dough easier to handle, uh easier to form into uh into tortilla. And so without nictimalization, there is no real tortilla production, right? But here is the kicker. It also makes niacin available in the corn that was not available beforehand.
+
+[42:48] So you get a bunch of Europeans showing up and they ship the corn over to Europe and they grow it, right? And it was cheap and easy to grow, so they grow it and they start eating a largely corn-based diet, and they all get pillagra because they're not getting the niacin because the dunces don't look and see that you know there's this procedure that's been done for you know millennia, literally millennia, right, of nixtimalization. They don't think that's important. They think that they can just take the the crank uh the grain crop, corn, and build a whole culture around it without doing the nyxtimalization, and as a result we get pallagra. So this is a process, it also has another effect is that in it in a culture that was probably deficient in milk at the time prior to the domestication of uh milk-producing animals, to go back to Max's question, uh the calcium hydroxide also radically increases the amount of calcium that's uh in the tortilla because the calcium goes into the corn.
+
+[43:42] And so all of a sudden now you have a lot more calcium available to the system, you have a uh a lot easier problem uh thing to work with as a dough, and you have uh and you have niacin. So it's good, it's all good. Now, I became interested in this uh because I'm interested in all things uh like that. And so we started nixtimalizing things based, you know, based on the fact that we're playing around with it, using Thai red lime paste. I'm now uh we're gonna tomorrow or the day after, we're gonna tour tort uh tortilleria nixtamal, which is like the only place in New York that uses its own uh um makes its own nixta mal.
+
+[44:16] I'm getting a matate because I did some nixtimalization of popcorn, which is weak. Don't try to do it with popcorn, it's not the right kind of corn. I've read on the internet that it w it works fine, it does not work fine, it doesn't I mean it works fine, but it doesn't mill very well. And without the stone grinder, the the metate mano, I over the weekend when I was making uh tortilla for you know my family for for Sunday dinner, I blew out my Vitaprep like three times. I blew out my cuisin art.
+
+[44:40] It was a kinghell mess, and I still didn't get the texture exactly right. So today when I pick up the official Mexican grinder, I'll tell you whether or not, you know, next week hopefully whether or not it works. But I'm also interested in nixtimalizing other grains other than corn for just for for giggles, right? So what you know, we've done barley, we've done uh rye, and we've done wheat, and I've had some success and some failure, and we'll come back on it. But uh basically we made something that was made with rye that had it had a rye flavor, which Nastasha doesn't like unfortunately because she doesn't like things that are delicious, and but also the flavor of uh tortilla, right?
+
+[45:18] So the a lot of the tortilla flavor, what what differentiates it from just you know, uh uh corn meal cake is that lye cooking has a characteristic flavor, right? And so next time you bite into a tortilla. Think about the difference between that and unnyxtimalized corn and that flavor. And so I was achieving that flavor in other grains. Uh now we haven't yet done the control side by side of whether just boiling it for the same length of time without using the lime is going to produce the same kind of batter.
+
+[45:44] But this is what we're working on in uh in cooking issues. We want to bring nixtimalization to the next level. We're new uh like usual, we're not content with just learning, which we're gonna do on Thursday from the people, real people who do it every day. So that you know it's always best to go visit someone who does it every day so that you can get a feel for what it's like to do it right. I mean, it sure beats the you know four hundred pages of nixtimalization crap I read in the scientific literature that I downloaded off of my illegal connection to Columbia's uh servers.
+
+[46:15] But the um the you know uh nothing beats going and touching the real stuff, eating it, tasting it. I will have practiced with my matate mano by the time we make it to it. And next week, this time, you I mean, I won't be a master. Also, I'm not gonna use a tortilla press because it seems to me like that's like a sissy move. I need to learn to be like a a Mexican grandma.
+
+[46:36] My goal in life, other than you know, like doing a good job on this raw food thing that we're gonna do, you know, is I, you know, and this is a longtime life goal is to become a uh a Mexican grandma. So that means I need I already have a mocojete in my house, the little stone grinder, which I've had for years, and you know, the little like you know, mortar pestle. Uh I've had one of those for, you know, I don't know, 10 years, 12 years. So now when I get this grinder, I'm one step closer. And when I can form tortillas effortlessly by hand without a press, I am and but then I have to learn Spanish.
+
+[47:07] And if I once I learn Spanish, I will officially be a Mexican grandma. Uh and uh with that, I will tell you to go. We have a new post up to go check it out. It's uh on pears. Uh Nastasha and I did a great pear tasting, and I finally posted on it months later because I'm a lazy weasel.
+
+[47:23] Cooking issues. Ficious fish is back.
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+[0:00] The following episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by TechServe. This January, responsibly dispose of all your old electronics at one of ten e-waste recycling events held across four boroughs of New York City, hosted by TechServe and the Lower East Side Ecology Center. Computers, printers, monitors, and lots of other electronics are being accepted for safe and proper recycling. Visit TechServe.com slash recycling for more information and drop off location details. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[0:46] I am uh I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. You can call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718 497 2128. Most of the time we take technical questions, but we'll we'll take any question. Today actually, uh Nastasha is not in the studio with me.
+
+[1:04] She is live from where the heck does your family live, Nastasha? Near Pasadena in California, Southern California. So not not even in Pasadena, like near Pasadena? Yeah, a very small town. Uh anyway, so Nastasha's uh got up early in the morning, gathered all your questions, and is uh joining us across the country live.
+
+[1:22] So how's it going over there, Nastasha? How's the weather? Good, it's good. It's raining. Do you miss me yet?
+
+[1:31] Wow. Wow. Okay. So um now yes, of course of course we always miss you when you go, Nastasha. Okay.
+
+[1:39] Just just messing around. All right. So we have uh quite a bunch of questions to get to today, so let's start out. Uh Steve, okay, I'm gonna try to pronounce his name. Mignonia.
+
+[1:48] What do you think, Nastasha? You speak Italian. Steve Mignonia. I think it's a good one. I think that's fine, yeah.
+
+[1:53] Yeah, that's good. I just got a thermal circulator. Congratulations. Uh and for those of you that don't know, that's what allows us to do most of our low temperature cooking because it keeps uh water temperatures very accurate. Great for the restaurant, great for dinner parties, great for cooking for your family.
+
+[1:59] I use it all the time. I have two. Nastasha has none. If Philip Preston from Polyscience is listening, Nastasha Lopez would be great uh marketing tool for to for you to give a circulator to, just saying, maybe for Christmas. Maybe for Christmas, I'm just saying.
+
+[2:22] Uh it's not too late, you know. Uh I just got a thermal circulator and I'll be using it to cook short ribs for my family for the holidays. Also a good idea. I do not have a lot of time this week to experiment with cooking temps and times, and I want some advice on which to use. Uh my father, who's a big skeptic of any uh new cooking technique, I'm with you, Steve.
+
+[2:39] I know what that's like. Uh, we'll be making short ribs the old-fashioned way. Uh so we are going to have a short rib cook-off. Um Steve's seen different uh techniques between 55 degrees Celsius and 60 degrees Celsius, anywhere from 24 hours to 72 hours. Steve's leaning towards 58 degrees Celsius uh for 60 to 72 hours.
+
+[3:00] You're not gonna need to go that long. But anyway, I'll get it at it in a second. Uh Steve's ideal finished product would be a medium rare short rib that is fork tender. He's not looking to replicate prime rib or fillet texture, which is good because they shouldn't be the same. Uh but would rather have a more fork tender falling apart meat.
+
+[3:15] Any thoughts? He says he knows that I recommend 60 degrees Celsius for 48 hours, which is 140 for all you Fahrenheit heads out there. But uh, what's the final result with those numbers? Thank you. Okay, now uh a lot to lot to talk about here, and uh unfortunately we're gonna get into some technical minutiae for all of you uh people who are gonna space out on this.
+
+[3:33] But look, here's the deal. Uh here's here's the good news and the bad news. I would not pit a low temp short rib side by side against uh a regular short rib because I think they're different. And if someone's shooting for a a good old fashioned stick to your rib short rib, the old fashioned short rib's gonna have kind of a beefier taste. It's also gonna have more of a pull apart texture.
+
+[3:58] The low temp short rib is uh and Nastasha, you know this. Uh yeah, the the the the sh the low temp uh short rib is gonna it is it's gonna be soft and tender, but it is gonna slice more like a steak, right? Right, Nastasha? Mm-hmm. Yes.
+
+[4:11] Yeah. And and it's not gonna be rip apart like a uh like a like a regular short rib. But if you want something, I wouldn't go 58 degrees. 58 degrees is it's pretty rare. Um I think people want a little bit of a medier taste, they want it a little more cooked, but slightly pink on the inside.
+
+[4:28] I mean, you could go as low as 57, which is about 135 Fahrenheit, uh, and then you're in the kind of the the medium that's in the medium rare zone, but people aren't really expecting a short rib there. Um so uh what I would do is I would serve it entirely differently from the way your dad um serves his short rib. I wouldn't try to replicate, I would just recognize that they're two s entirely different products and um and serve it a uh accordingly. I mean, I wouldn't like shred it up and serve it over a pile of uh like some kind of a starch product. What I mean, Nastasha, you've eaten a lot of these things.
+
+[5:02] I mean, and from someone who's doesn't come at it uh from the same perspective I do, what do you think about the traditional versus the the the low temp? I haven't I actually haven't had a lot of traditional short ribs. I mean, whatever short ribs I've had have been at home, and well, we all know how that is. Yes, yes, nastasha's family can overcook even short ribs, apparently. Um but so uh in other words, I wouldn't try to pit them against one another, although it it's admirable.
+
+[5:28] I have done it many times, and um the the traditional short rib is gonna have a more traditional short rib texture. It's gonna be beefier because it's gonna be cooked at a higher temperature, but it's also gonna be the meat fibers themselves are gonna be overcooked. I would choose 60 degrees uh and uh because Nastash, you like the 60 better than the 57, right? Yes. Yeah, I would do 60, and I would do it um if you at 60 degrees, if you cook it for 24 hours, it will have the texture of skirt steak.
+
+[5:55] Uh at 48 hours, it will be uh a a firmer but still tender um short rib. At 72 hours, it will be to my taste too mushy. It'll have lost too much of its texture. So I would go in between 48 and 72. I would say somewhere in the range of like 56 hours at 60 would be a good number.
+
+[6:15] Uh I would sear the meat both, I would sear it quickly, uh, put a crust on it beforehand. The key to this technique is over-reducing your sauce before you put it in the bag. You must over-reduce your sauce. If you it has to be like almost gloppy, because what's gonna happen is you're gonna bag it with the sauce, the meat's gonna give up its own juices into the bag and water down the sauce. It's gonna taste like pot of four, like a boiled beef, which is not what you're looking for.
+
+[6:38] So you want to over reduce the sauce. Uh a couple hours before you serve it. I would then uh after it's done cooking, I would let it chill down. Don't chill it right away, or the meat's not gonna absorb a lot of the juices again. I would put it on the counter for about 20 minutes.
+
+[6:51] Then you could put it in uh water for about regular tap water for about 20 minutes, although that's an extra step. It does make it taste better, according to Bruno Gusseau and according to our independent taste tests afterwards. Then you can ice it down. I would then uh open the bag uh s you know several hours before you're done ready to cook, scrape out the sauce that's rendered, warm it on the stove, correct the taste and temperature of it. It will uh likely need to be defatted.
+
+[7:14] It will most certainly need acidity, uh, might need seasoning correction. Put it back into a Ziploc bag with the short rib. Don't let it, you know, uh me, sorry, first then sear the sort ri short rib real quickly from cold, right? To put a little extra crust because it's gonna look green and kind of weird. Throw it back into the bag and then re-therm it at like 55, 57 for up to four hours.
+
+[7:37] But you could probably uh like two or three hours, it'll reabsorb some of the new sauce that you've put in that's gonna be thick and juicy and delicious, and that is going to be a bang up delicious short rib, but it won't be the same thing as a traditional short rib. Any any comments, Nastasha on this? No, that's good. And then let it he should let us know what his family thinks of his and his dad. Yeah, well, here's the thing.
+
+[7:58] I mean, like, it's like anything else. The low temp short ribs, it's not there's some things that are just better, right? That I mean, that's the case. There's some techniques that are just better, uh, and then there are techniques that are just different. A traditional short rib is different from a low temperature short rib.
+
+[8:12] A traditional short rib, you're basically almost boiling out the meat, the fibers themselves are horrendously overcooked, and then you render the the collagen into gelatin, the gelatin plus the delicious braising sauce. By the way, the braising sauce is then reinforced with that gelatin, right? So so you get an incredibly uncuous uh sauce. Um, and and that's what makes the deliciousness of a short rib. But those short ribs can't be sliced, those short ribs don't have the same texture as a low temperature short rib.
+
+[8:37] Low temperature short ribs aren't as uncuous because you don't render out the gelatin. The gel the collagen breaks down, but when you slice into a low temp short rib, you'll see that the collagen hasn't rendered out. You can still see where the collagen was. It's just become soft. So that stuff doesn't render out into the sauce and doesn't give that incredibly uncuous texture to the sauce.
+
+[8:55] It also doesn't individually moisten each fiber of meat the way it does in uh in a traditional braise. Furthermore, in a low temp, because you can see it slices the fat, doesn't render out, so you're gonna have to slice off some of the fat. So it's all a question of what you're looking for. If you want something that you can slice into a beautiful presentation, is incredibly tender, but not the same as a traditional short rib, and you realize you're gonna have to make up for some of the stuff you're gonna lose, incredible beefy flavor. I would put some cooked uh rendered meat into your sauce beforehand.
+
+[9:23] Don't just rely on the on the short ribs themselves to provide that beefiness because they won't be there because you're not using a high temperature technique. So I would just try to keep in mind the benefits and disadvantages of each technique. Realize that they are just different techniques. And does it have to be a competition? You know, ask your dad, Steve.
+
+[9:39] Does it really have to be a competition? Anyway, uh happy collars. I guess. Someone just emailed me and said that that they can't get through. I don't know.
+
+[9:49] Is that true? Jack, what do you know about this? Jack, our our trusty engineer. We're we're short staffed today in the uh in the in the radio station. I see nothing.
+
+[9:57] Huh. Huh? Did I give the right number? Anyway, call if you can hear me, caller, try back again at uh 718. What is it, Jack?
+
+[10:04] 718? 7184972128. Yeah, Nastasha, maybe tell them to try again. Yeah, because John Stewart. I hope it's the John Stewart.
+
+[10:14] Oh, well, that would be amazing, but uh I I assume not. Um so um, well, John, if you are listening to me, you are the John Stewart. Anyway, uh see, Nastasha is so bad with customer service, I swear. I swear, you gotta learn. Never learn.
+
+[10:28] Okay. Oh, we have John on the line. All right. Hi, John. How are you doing?
+
+[10:33] Hunter. Hey. Question for me? Yes, sir. Uh, so yeah, I just want to say uh big fan.
+
+[10:41] I've just discovered you guys uh month or so ago and have now listened to all of your uh backlog, and it's it's really really fun. So um you guys have inspired me to uh build my own immersion circulator. Nice and get some spherification supplies. Uh so I've been doing that the past week or so here. So I'm experimenting with both of those, um, and I hope to use both of them in a uh New Year's Eve dinner that I host every year.
+
+[11:05] How many people um uh it's gonna be twelve to fourteen. Okay, good. That's a good number to start with the circulator. Okay, yeah. So I mean last year I did a so I guess there's three questions I have about that.
+
+[11:17] So last year I did a beef tenderloin, uh, you know, just traditional cooking. It was good. Uh tenderloin's a crowd pleaser. Um and I guess you know, sous vide is appropriate because I can you know control the temp, internal temp very well. But uh I'm wondering if there's something I guess my question is what do you think is the m protein that is most improved by Sous V cooking?
+
+[11:40] Um I wonder if I should be more ambitious than just a tenderloin. That's an excellent question. Uh and strangely one I haven't really thought of. So let's just break it apart between sous vide and and the low temperature, right? Because most proteins can be done well.
+
+[11:56] Uh, you know, when I say well, I mean properly, uh low temp and to to good effect, depending on what you're shooting for. Some proteins I don't like very much in uh in sous vide in a vacuum bag because I find that affects their texture. Chicken most notably and and certain fish. But are you gonna be ziplocking or are you gonna be doing vacuum? Just Ziploc.
+
+[12:16] I don't have a vacuum device. I use by the way, I use Ziploc at home. That's what I use. Um I'm assuming that your circulator is gonna be able to do like about a degree or so. I mean, are you gonna P I D control it?
+
+[12:27] So it's gonna be at the end of the year. It should be accurate within you know tenth of degree, really. Couple tenths. All right, good. Okay.
+
+[12:28] So uh and as long as you have good circulation, it'll be accurate across the bath. Okay, fine. So you you can do pretty much anything you want. Um here's the good the good news about uh tenderloin is that uh it's fairly easy. You want to go super low temp on a tenderloin.
+
+[12:48] We're talking like 55, 54, like as low, low, right? And and I wouldn't cook the tenderloin whole. I would cook it in uh I would pre-slice it out, uh sear and put it in the ziplocks and get it ready to go. Here's the main problem with the tenderloin, and one of the great things I love about cooking steaks uh in low temp, because that that's by the way, like in fact I might do this soon. It's one of my favorite like dinner party things because it's gonna be really easy for you to do.
+
+[13:11] Like you're gonna be a rock star, and it's also gonna be easy, right? Uh I prefer a big thick uh rib steak, like thick, you know. And so and so uh and the the bad news about the tenderloin is if you do it, if it cooks much more than about 40, like 45 is ideal. If it cooks much longer, like an hour and a half or so, because there's no connective tissue in the tenderloin, it's gonna start to feel kind of fibery. So for someone who's not used to it or is used to overcook tenderloin in general, they'll think it's fine.
+
+[13:38] But you you know, you probably won't think it's as good um as as it could be. I mean, you can do a bang up job on the tenderloin, but it's just you know, you have to be careful not to cook it too long. I mean, one of the great tenderloin applications, low temp, is uh the beef wellington, where you can cook the whole tenderloin like you know, for a short period of time all the way through, then wrap it in a puff and then hit it really hard in the oven so that you don't overcook the meat because it's already cooked, you don't need to worry about it. It's you know, technique we call low temperature for insurance purposes. But if you go if instead of going tenderloin, if you go rib steak and then and I like to serve the rib steak, you know, what I'll do is I'll I'll buy like a standing rib roast for a party, then I'll slice it into steaks.
+
+[14:17] Right. I'll uh you know, usually I'll take the bone off, maybe render that to make some meaty stuff. Then take the steaks, cut them real thick. Then uh I sear them, and I actually sear them a lot longer than I normally talk about to put a put a heavy crust on them because I make them so thick that you're not really losing that much meat by doing it, and it really gives a nice kind of crust and meaty flavor on the outside. You know, salt and pepper the heck out of them.
+
+[14:38] Then I throw them in a bag with butter. I throw garlic in. Some people don't don't like that, but then I use the butter afterwards to make garlic bread so that I have a no waste situation, right? Then uh then the the advantage of a rib steak as opposed to a tenderloin is a rib steak can cook for you know like a minimum for a real thick steak of uh you know an hour and a half or so, but up to like four, five, five, six hours, your window is a lot longer and you're not gonna have um you know, so people don't sit down or if or if something happens, you're not working right at the edge, and you're not worried about the texture going bad on you, right? And then about an hour before service or so, I would turn the bath down to uh fifty-two.
+
+[15:16] I mean, don't say I said so, but fifty Celsius, so that the whole whole temperature of the steak drops down a little bit so that when you put a real monster sear on the outside, when you take it out, you could put a really good crust on it without d uh raising the internal temperatures too much on the uh on the center of the meat. Then, you know, you just you know, and you can do that steak by stake. So you could so for a party you could if you have like you know four steaks that you're serving out, you know, really thick ones, you could do two, slice them down, send them out, and you know, then do the next, you know, then you know, take a five minute break, do the next two while you sear off the next two and and bring them out. And it's uh, you know, that's the way I run my dinner parties. Nastash, you've been to my house for steak, right?
+
+[15:56] Yeah, uh no, not for steak, but I've had the steak that you're talking about before. Yeah. The one where I drop it. Well, yeah, you made it. I we did it at the school and you made it.
+
+[16:03] I mean, that's that's a it's a crazy, it's a crazy awesome way to have a dinner party, right, Nastasha? Yeah, it's delicious. Yeah. So I mean, I would do that over over tenderloin. I mean, at these the it used to be, and this is like, you know, and uh it's not me being misogynist, I'm just like, this is what I used to hear, right?
+
+[16:17] That the ladies they like the tenderloin. And uh but I think nowadays, you know, I think uh you know, even people who used to go on those old you know, sex sex based stereotypes, which I never buy into, but you know, that go on it, I think everyone realizes now that a dude a dude thinks it's like mucho sexy for a woman to tear into a uh a rib steak. Am I right about this? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[16:40] It's like it's like it's like it's become kind of chic for women to order like uh, you know, a uh a neat scotch at a bar because it's a sign that you know you that you that you're a butt kicker. Am I wrong about this? I agree. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[16:52] Is this helpful at all by the way for your dinner party? No, that's a great, great suggestion. So what temperature you'd so you say 50 C to like finish it off, but what about the you know, few hours cooking beforehand? What temp would you use there? Uh okay, so I would do my personal some people I know like to do as low as uh some people cook really low, which I don't, but like fifty-five to fifty-six in that range.
+
+[17:15] Okay. Like so a good like middle ground is like fifty-five point two or fifty-five point five. If you have a chance to practice on one rib steak before you do it, so you can get a feel for what for what it's like. Um that at fifty five five, it won't be squashy at all in the center, especially if you cook it uh long enough, it will be good. Um 56 sometimes is a little too tight for people.
+
+[17:38] Um, you know, for especially for rare heads, it's a little too tight. But like 55 5, the squeamish people, if they look at it, they might say that it's underdone, but once they eat it, they're gonna like it. And and uh and the the rare heads aren't gonna be uh it's a good compromise, right? Especially if you put a you drop it so that the temperature goes lower and you put a good hard sear on it, no one's if their eyes are closed, no one's gonna quibble with the texture. Uh it's just a question of uh how it looks.
+
+[18:02] Uh and then of course, um, you know, even though I make fun of uh you know a lot of Nastasha is partial to any kind of Italian any kind of italian, it doesn't matter what it is, if it's Italian, it's good. So, you know, so I'm gonna bust on her all the time about it. Anyway, so but that said, when I do steak at home, I go Italian style and I drizzle some delicious olive oil over it, um, and you know, some crunchy wallin salt, and I've never had a complaint. Sounds delicious. Um, great.
+
+[18:32] So uh that's very helpful. I appreciate it. Um so the other question is about uh then spherification. Um so one thing I want to try to do is sort of a deconstructed bellini. So I'd like to uh do like a reverse spherification of peach and then drop that in prosecco, right?
+
+[18:48] Um so I'm you know, I'm obviously very new to this. Um what I've found online basically is that the idea is I'll put some calcium lactate in the peach puree. Right. Get calcium lactate gluconate. Don't get just straight lactate, get calcium lactate gluconate, because it has no taste.
+
+[19:04] Calcium lactate still has some taste. Okay, so that was my third question, then is what is the difference between lactate and lactate gluconate? Okay. Um okay, so then uh so then I'll basically then freeze it. Uh so the ratio was about two point five percent, I think, for the calcium lactate glucanate.
+
+[19:22] Yeah. Two to two and a half, somewhere in there. That's good. You have to warm the peach puree to get it to dissolve properly. Okay.
+
+[19:31] Not hot. You don't have to make it hot, but you should warm it. I mean sometimes you don't need to, but you just want to be sure, you know. Okay. And then just drop that into a sodium alginate bath at uh point five percent is I think what I found.
+
+[19:42] It depends on your alginate. If you have a really strong alginate, then point five would probably work. If you have a weak alginate, uh then you might have to go as high as point eight, point nine. It all depends on your alginate. I'd try a couple different um a couple different ratios.
+
+[19:56] Also, how long you let it sit in the alginate bath, the the skin is gonna keep growing on it. What I would do uh if you you know you if you can make them beforehand, you put them in the alginate bath, you let them sit for however long, depends on your alginate and whatnot. Fish it out carefully, don't let them touch each other. They'll glue they'll glue to each other. Okay.
+
+[20:16] Then you're gonna want to rinse it off in uh water and to get the excess alginate off of it, and then you can put it into a calcium bath briefly just to make sure everything's set up. Uh now you can let them thaw in the calcium bath. You can let them thaw in peach puree. Uh you can let them thaw inside of uh your champagne flute if you want. But what you can't do is let it thaw in uh you can't leave it in the alginate too long, and you can't let it thaw and stay in a regular straight uh water bath or calcium bath because the the the sugar and the flavor and the color are gonna leach out over time.
+
+[20:52] So through the shell. Yeah. Yeah, it's per it's water, it's water, you know, it's it's it's semi-porous, so you're gonna leak the stuff out. It becomes like a membrane and and you have osmosis across that membrane, and you tend to lose color and flavor and sugar and acidity. Like and doesn't take that long.
+
+[21:08] So I mean you don't worry about it when you're making it, but I'm saying don't store it for hours and hours in a water bath. You can store it directly in your calcium-based peach puree, right? Which is always good. Or um you can uh let them finish thawing in your champagne flute. The only the the good news about letting it thaw in the champagne flute is it's easy to get in without breaking.
+
+[21:28] The bad news is is that if you have a broken one, you're not gonna know until you pour the champagne in. So, you know, it turns out you can never win. You know? Do you ever notice this? Yeah.
+
+[21:38] Um, and then how long, I mean, when you prep prep something like that and then put it in the the peach puree, like leave it sit in the peach puree. Um, how long is it good in that situation? I mean, how long ahead can I make these? Long time. I mean, uh, you know, I've I've never done it with the big ones to kept them a long time because I just do them for like an event or for the classes, but you know, we've I've had uh reverse um reverse spherification uh maple syrup balls that we've kept for Nastasha.
+
+[22:04] How long have we kept those things? Like a week? Uh yeah. Yeah. Like a week.
+
+[22:08] As long as it's isotonic, right? If you're storing it in the same stuff it's made out of and there's some calcium there, then you'll you'll be you'll be okay until the stuff goes bad. Okay. Yeah. We gotta take a break.
+
+[22:21] Great. Oh, yeah, we're going to our go into our first commercial break. Thanks for your call in and good luck. Let us know how it works out. Thank you very much.
+
+[22:27] Appreciate it. Appreciate it. All right. How you feel, brother? Feeling good.
+
+[22:31] You feel good? So much bone, brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. How you feel, bellow?
+
+[22:41] Yeah, yeah! We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[22:59] Let's take them up, Brad. We've gotta take you high. Alright. You wanna do it again? Yeah, that's the wrong thing.
+
+[23:18] We gotta take the high Brother. Yeah. Now I won't have about it. Let Brad blow up my two corpses. And then I wanna wave you and let's go into it with now.
+
+[23:35] Alright. I'm gonna get that fella with a low horn over there. Brad, get it take us high. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[23:50] That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you live for another segment or two. And by the way, uh Heritage Radio Network is on hiatus. Hey Nastasha, you get to use the word hiatus. You like that?
+
+[24:03] Uh we're on hiatus next week. Uh, and we'll be coming back to you, I guess that means in uh in the new year. So this is uh this is our holiday edition. Yeah? Yeah, how said that earlier.
+
+[24:15] Uh it goes to show what I know. I was busy. I'm building a new computer at home and my head's been stuck in the sand. Uh sand is the polite word. Anyway, uh well, we're talking about low temperature cooking.
+
+[24:25] Uh, and again, if this is the first time you've ever heard me rant on about it, low temperature cooking doesn't mean that you're cooking something too a low temperature. It doesn't mean raw. And you know, raw raw cooking we're gonna get into next year. Nastash, we have to set a date. We have to set a date for our raw cooking extravaganza.
+
+[24:40] Our week of raw. Is that what we is it already set? The last week of January? We don't have anything to do, and I think it's I think it's a good time. We have no other events?
+
+[24:49] No. All right, people. People, last week of January is cooking issues, raw food week extravaganza, not just raw, by the way, because I can't stand to be called a sissy in public. Uh well, it's not true. I I let I let it slide all the time, but not when it comes to food.
+
+[25:07] So, you know, you can call me a physical coward, you know, you can call me like a relationship sissy. That's fine. But food sissy, no love. Anyway, so uh uh, you know, anyway. So we're gonna we're gonna do the raw food challenge the last week of January.
+
+[25:21] I've already purchased with my own uh my own money, an excalibur dehydrator because all the schools were stolen. We're sourcing a champion juicer. Uh I am you know, but I'm gonna go on this for a second before I answer the next question. Unless the caller calls in, I'll take them right away because that's service for you. Uh the uh uh so here's some things, Nastasha.
+
+[25:41] We have to think I w Nastasha and I have read now what, like like eight, nine raw food cookbooks. Yeah. Yeah. No, don't no, don't get no be nice. Well, I'm not gonna go post apocalyptic.
+
+[25:54] In fact, you can't cook raw food in a post-apocalyptic situation because you won't have your vita prep, you won't have your your uh you know your dehydrator, your champion juicer, all that. The question is can we at the cooking issues team, can we bring some stuff, some some stuff to the table that other raw food people haven't brought to the table yet? Yes, right? First of all, I'm gonna rotovap some stuff. I'm gonna make some hyper low temperature reductions.
+
+[26:19] Now, I might get called a sissy here because it's not gonna be useful for all the raw food people out there because they can't do that. But we can do distillations at low temperature, we can do fruit reductions, things like that, well below the 118 marks. So we're definitely going to do some of that, right? Um I'm also interested in using a uh trying to find some good recipes for the uh Santho, the wet grinder that they use for dolls, see whether we can't get some new interesting recipes using the wet grinder uh from a from a raw food perspective. And I'm also uh I'm gonna use a a bunch of enzymes.
+
+[26:51] I mean a bunch of now, because it right, Nastasha, there's nothing wrong with using a commercially available enzyme prep. I mean, enzyme is the whole dealy, right? I mean, why can't we use enzymes? Now, if I if I can get a hold of straight transglutaminase that doesn't have any maltodextrin in it, it's been heated, and it doesn't have any uh any uh casein, any milk casein. I don't see why we can't use some uh transglutaminase to glue some uh raw proteins together.
+
+[27:15] I mean it might be fun, right? So these are these are the kinds of things I'm I'm thinking about um for our raw food extravaganza, which we've now publicly announced so that we're not welching, is gonna be the last week in January. Which means we have to start cooking now. You know all those raw food recipes. There's all the all the all the raw food recipes are you know, stick some almonds in water and you know, wait eight years and you'll be able to eat.
+
+[27:37] You know, if you you know that like the cooking instructions are so bananas and all these things because it just takes so dang long uh to do. Anyway, we will do it, and uh we're gonna do a good job. And it won't be any yes, we're gonna do a good job. Okay. Kurt writes in my Queas and Arch slow cooker seems to hold a fairly constant 165 degrees uh Fahrenheit, 74 degrees Celsius when on the warm setting.
+
+[27:59] Is this temperature useful for any low temperature cooking applications, or is it simply too hot? Kurt, I am sorry. It is simply too hot. Um it's good for traditional cooks um and and uh and braises. You know something you could do in it that is uh going to be good is uh for instance if you want to do a duck confie, but you don't want to have to worry about it, right?
+
+[28:23] You can uh put into a bag uh and even uh uh listen, the uh the John S. C. Johnson wax, a family corporation, you guys familiar with these people? They make the Ziploc bags. Uh they're gonna they will they will write in and call me a bad human being if I say you can do this because their bags can't take boiling temperatures.
+
+[28:42] Polyethylene in them can't take boiling temperatures. But if in fact your thing doesn't go above 74, it should be able to handle this okay. If you take uh duck leg and even just a couple extra tablespoons of fat, and you you salt cure it uh with uh like thyme and uh herbs and whatnot for you know the recommended procedure, like overnight, uh, you know, a day or so, and then put it in that Ziploc bag, you can put it in your slow cooker and leave it for like uh you know several hours, uh, and you can make a very good duck confie that way without having to have a lot of fat. So it's really good to do stuff like that uh in in a similar vein. Any traditional braise like that, uh, or any conf fee, I should say, not a traditional braise, but any confie uh is great in that something like that because I actually prefer the high higher temperatures, the more traditional temperatures, but I like to be able to do it without having to have boatloads of fat around just because it gets uh expensive and messy, and then you need to cool it in the fat, which is a pain in the butt.
+
+[29:40] And so I think it's uh it's a really good technique, but just don't tell the SC Johnson wax people on me. Um what do you think, Nastasha? Yeah? Yeah, no, that's good. That's good to know for me because that's all I have here at home.
+
+[29:52] Yeah. Alright. Well, uh, I will say that uh when I use a circulator, nine uh out of ten times my circulators, unless I'm doing creme en glaze or a test for like vegetables at a higher temp, or like we're working on nictimalization, unless I'm doing something kind of special like that. Uh my circulator is set at uh below below six below sixty-three, really, most of the time, below sixty-two. In fact, at sixty or below ninety percent of the time.
+
+[30:20] Uh, you know, I'll do m most of my steak work in the the 55 range in there, duck at like 57, uh, and then uh chicken at 60 uh 3 to 65. That's what I should have said 65. So that range is where where I am, never really above that, um, unless I'm doing creme en glaze or something special. But it's really great for confie, and there ain't much more delicious than confit. Um let me see.
+
+[30:48] Michael writes in and says, Hello, Nastasha, here's a question for Dave. Uh hi, Michael. Uh, how can I make my own fizzing tablet like Alka Seltzer or Airborne? Obviously, I'd like to be able to give it an intense flavor and have whatever mineral salt is used in the tablet base not be too overpowering. I think the main thing I'm not sure about is how to bind the powder into a tablet, thanks, Michael.
+
+[31:07] Okay. There are two uh ways to well, I'm sure there's a billion ways to make tablets, right? Uh like the easiest way isn't going to work for you, which is you put the ingredients into a gum paste and then like uh cut them or or you know, push them into tablet shapes and let them dry out. This is gonna give you a texture similar to an altoid, right? But not kind of a hard shiny tablet.
+
+[31:29] Uh the next easiest way, uh, and that won't work for the this because uh if when you I don't think that if there's any liquid, when you combine that, the way you make a fizzy tablet is you combine an acid, typically some mixture of citric, malloc, uh tartaric acids, right? And uh I guess you could do lactic or something like that, but typically it's either citric malic, tartaric or a blend, uh, with a base, uh typically something like baking soda like sodium um sodium bicarbonate, although some people use uh I think uh potassium bicarbonate or uh you know other mixtures of of bicarbs, right? And when they combine in liquid in your mouth, they uh they they fizz, right? And this is the same thing that happens when you make a volcano when you're a kid when you add vinegar to baking soda and you get this volcano that spew up, right? Now, uh, how are you gonna get these in into a tablet?
+
+[32:21] That's the question. Okay. The easiest way, not very satisfying, but the easiest way is to buy empty gel caps. Uh and you can get those. I know Whole Foods sells them.
+
+[32:32] Uh they're basically the Whole Foods doesn't sell the gelatin ones, they sell like a carrageenin-based one, but GNC or any of these places where there's kind of people making their own pills all the time, or you can get them on the internets. Um you get gel caps, and you can fill the gel caps, push them together to form capsules, and they'll melt fairly quickly on the tongue and if you let it sit there and go acid. But I I get a feeling this is not what you want it what you want to do. What you want is something called a tablet press. Okay.
+
+[32:59] And the way a tablet press works is you take a bunch of uh ingredients and binders, they use like dextrose powder, uh probably some uh malt sometimes some maltodextrin, whatever your flavoring is, and uh maybe some oil-based agents, I'm not sure. Uh, but they mix it all up and then they put it into uh a uh two-sided press, and then a press comes down and bang, smashes it into a capsule form. And if you're really rich, you you can write your name in it and stuff like that. Now, uh these presses, they're not they're not cheap, right? They they have manual versions of them.
+
+[33:31] I looked on eBay this morning and there's someone it's uh called a tablet press. There's someone selling a hand one for fifty bucks that I think you put the ingredients into a little cylinder and you screw it down, uh almost like you're screwing down like a jack, and it it smooshes a tablet and then opens up and you have it bang, you have a tablet. I don't know how fast those are. What I used to do leather work back in the day when I was a a leather worker with my wife making uh bags uh long time ago. Um I had something called a kick press that I used to use to do uh or you know, uh to make st put snaps into things and grommets, and they have all different dyes.
+
+[34:05] Uh that would probably be the next level up. I don't know if they provide enough force to make a tablet, but I didn't really I didn't really research it long enough. Uh all the you know the big the big machines they use uh like a hydraulic power and you press it and they squish it down, but now you're talking like a a several thousand dollar problem instead of a fifty dollar problem, or for the kick press, if you buy it used if it if it is the same kind of press that you use to do snaps and grommet work, you're talking like uh, you know, a hundred dollar, uh hundred and fifty dollar problem, something like that. Uh, but that's how you make uh the tablets. Um the trick is making sure that you don't have an excess of base.
+
+[34:40] It's usually okay to have an excess of acid because we like acidity in our in our tablets. It's not okay to have an excess of base. In fact, you need an excess of acid. If you don't, it's it's uh it's uh not gonna have any uh acidity to it. You will have a salty aftertaste uh that you know that comes along with uh the acid in the base mixing and producing a salt.
+
+[35:00] So I would choose a salt that you like the flavor of uh usually sodium salts. I think taste better than the potassium salts. Nastasha hates the potassium salts. Yes, they do. Yes, yes, she does, and she tells me all the time.
+
+[35:13] Anyway, uh, so uh is that is that helpful, you think, Nastasha? No. I think that's helpful. Let's take uh one last break. All right, we're gonna go to a commercial break.
+
+[35:21] Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Oh, how you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good?
+
+[35:32] So much bone, brother. How do you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella?
+
+[35:42] Sure didn't dump. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[36:03] Don't take them up, Brad. We're gonna take high. All right. Yeah, let's go all the time. Brother!
+
+[36:27] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Welcome back to the holiday edition of Cooking Issues. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[36:41] We'll probably maybe extend it a little bit, Nastasha. Go another 15 minutes. So if you can make it to Nastasha's door outside of Pasadena in the next 15 minutes, you can ask her a question in person. Just kidding. Please don't, please don't do that.
+
+[36:52] Please don't do that. Please don't. Uh yeah, her mom her mom will probably, you know, uh put some buckshot into you. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[37:01] William called uh called in. He couldn't get the live feed, so he sent an email in. Uh and he said, Dave mentioned lab sales where you can find old rotovaps. It's a rotary evaporator, uh circulator, which is, you know, we've been talking about a lot today, uh, that you can find pretty cheap and just need to clean up and maybe fix a few fuses on. I try my Google Kung Fu for auctions or sales in the NYC area, haven't found anything.
+
+[37:20] Do you have any resources I could check out to find these kinds of sales? I've never uh gone to a um a live uh lab sale. Um I get m uh n all basically of my lab equipment off of eBay uh and just base it on um on finding either occasionally someone will uh like flood the market. That happened with rotovaps a couple times, and actually recently the the market on on eBay was flooded with rotovaps, uh so the price went down, but it's it's starting to go back up again. Um there's centrifuges and things like that.
+
+[37:53] LabX is another website, LabX is another place that a lot of lab people go to get uh lab equipment. Um the live auctions that I go to are mainly restaurant auctions. There's not a lot of labs in New York that go out of business. There's a lot of restaurants that go out of business or change owners or for whatever reason have auctions. So all the live auctions that I've gone to in the New York area have been either laboratory uh sorry, uh restaurant auctions, or I used to go to New Jersey and Brooklyn a lot for machine shop auctions back in the day uh when I was in the art biz.
+
+[38:24] And uh I used to do that a lot. And those I always found in the um, you know, in the New York Times, in the uh used to be at the back of the help wanted ads. I don't know if it is anymore, but uh, if you've never been to a restaurant auction, it's something to behold. It's a crazy, it's a crazy situation, especially if you need 8,000 uh pans that they've been beat to hell for like a nickel apiece. Uh which, you know, or uh my deep fryer, I bought one of those things for like, you know, uh 50 bucks.
+
+[38:44] And yeah, they're crazy. I mean, you can get some crazy deals at those, but I've never been to a lab uh one. Uh now uh eBay, uh eBay, the way to go. And just look for if you can fix things, look for things that aren't not working, but that you feel that you can troubleshoot based on the description. You have to take chances.
+
+[39:07] I've had things that I couldn't fix. It's rare, but I've had things that I couldn't fix for a reasonable uh amount of money. Um but you know that's basically what I do. I take my chances on eBay. It's a lot better if you can go to a live auction and kick the tires.
+
+[39:20] For that, you you you can look in the back of the New York Times, and they will have like major lab auctions that show up that you can go to live, but they're not usually in the New York City area. They're like they're around. Uh but you know, Eli Lilly did that a while ago, and there are people who who uh who deal with that. Um hope that's helpful. Didn't sound so helpful, but I didn't feel very helpful.
+
+[39:40] Was all right. Didn't feel helpful. Okay. Uh Teddy Davico writes in. Hey Teddy, how you doing?
+
+[39:48] Uh he's uh asked some questions before. Uh recently watched Wiley. That would be Wiley Dufrain, uh, my brother-in-law, friend of the blog. Uh Wiley's Meat Gloomania presentation for Harvard's food science class. That's the class that for on uh Adria is uh heading up at Harvard.
+
+[40:01] Uh we have had a lot of good friends speak there. I think uh uh you know McGee spoke in there, uh Wiley, Dave Chang, uh bunch of them didn't ask us, right, Nastasha? Didn't ask us. Not us. No.
+
+[40:12] No, no, no, no. It's you know we know why? We're chumps. Why? Chumps.
+
+[40:16] We're chumps. Low quality, yeah. Low quality, we're low quality people. Uh this sparked an idea. I think it would be possible to make hot ice cream using an ice cream base, transglutaminase YG, which is the yogurt uh transglutaminase.
+
+[40:28] Transglutaminase binds proteins together, including milk proteins, so it makes yogurt so it weeps less and holds together better. Methylcellulose and gel and gum, do you think this would work? I should be receiving my act uh sample of Activa soon. Thank you. Uh no, I don't think it will work.
+
+[40:42] Uh uh but you know, I look here's the deal. Hot ice cream is one of those things that people have been trying to make for for you know years and years and years and years. Uh the first hot ice cream uh uh attempts were made by a physicist named Nicholas Curti uh you know who is kind of uh one of the one of the people in the 60s who really started uh 70s started really popularizing uh you know science in the kitchen he was you know he knew McGee he was one of the original people in the molecular gastronomy conferences in Ariche uh and he wanted to make hot ice cream for a long time it didn't work out for him uh Wiley Dufrein uh took it on for uh a long time as something he wanted to do was working on it a lot back in the year uh I think like two thousand two thousand one in there uh and not able to do it um I've had uh other like bloggers and people's and who shall remain nameless their recipes for hot ice cream and uh none of them taste like uh ice cream um I mean the the problem with ice cream so the the the theory is I can make that I can make something that has uh the texture of a melted ice cream right so that's the gel end so you're making a fluid gel that holds its shape even when it's uh even when it's you know uh either caught or cold doesn't matter and has the texture of like a nice ice cream base can you do that? Yes. Uh can you take a methyl cell and make it uh firm up when you heat it?
+
+[42:05] Yes, right? And that's what all the hot ice cream recipes are based on some form of methyl cell that melts when it puts in your mouth and gets cooler, right? But uh but i none of them have uh the the texture is ice cream, none of them are as hard as ice cream, they don't have the bite of ice cream. Like ice cream is like a chilling effect in the mouth. It's just nothing I've had approximates what the the what you want in your head is something that that provides that the feeling of ice cream, but is somehow reversed from hot to cold from cold to hot.
+
+[42:36] And I've never and I've tasted a bunch of people's different recipes for it, and I've never had something that provided an experience that I thought was satisfying. Uh it just it just I think it's one of those it's like the it's like the philosopher's stone of uh of uh new cooking techniques. Every like everyone's had their hand uh you know, tried to make it, and you know, just like you can't turn lead to gold, I don't think you can make a uh hot ice cream. I can't think of a good bet to make on it, like we did on the raw foods. But uh I in other words, I would want to have it.
+
+[43:10] Like I hope someone could make it, because I think it would be really fun. But I've not had one so far that I thought was totally successful. Wiley made one, he said he can get the texture of soft servo okay, but not like a not like the hard ice cream. It's uh that that's even like the super holy grail is the hard ice cream. So I w I hope you have success.
+
+[43:30] If you call the different recipes on the internet, there are several uh for hot ice cream. Uh and I want you to have success. It's just I'm I'm dubious. Uh I am dubious as to whether or not you will be able to achieve it. What do you Nastasha?
+
+[43:44] Am I being too I'm not being hard, I'm not being hard, I'm just this is you know I mean I think the cool I don't I'm uh not really sure what you're talking about, but I think your brûlate ice cream is really good. Yeah, but that's different. That's a cold ice cream. Yeah, I know, but I I I can't even like register hot ice cream in my head. Right.
+
+[44:03] Well imagine something that's exactly the opposite of ice cream. It's like ice cream in Bizarro World, you know? It's like it's like it's it's it's hard when it's hot, and then when you put it in your mouth, it cools off because it's you know you're cooler than it, and then it melts in your mouth instead of you heating it to melt it. It's like every it's like everything bizarro. But uh, and I know many people who've tried to do it, it's just I've never had one that I thought, man, that's ice cream only hot.
+
+[44:28] You know? The brûleed ice cream is good, but it's it's still it's you know, it's ice cream, it's cold in the center. But Teddy, I want you to work on this problem. This is the the y you're you're traveling a good line of thought traveled by many, you know, very um very smart and very good people before you, so maybe you can succeed where where they they have not. I hope so.
+
+[44:49] Uh because that would be that would be fun. So tell us tell us what kind of results you have uh with it. Michael Nakin writes in uh and hello, uh he says, hello. Uh he has tapioca maltodextrin, which I've used for the usual tricks of turning various fats into soils and powders. By the way, uh Michael, remember don't call it uh just tapioca maltodextrin.
+
+[45:09] The one that turns oils into powders is ensorbit uh tapioca maltodextrin from the National Starch Corporation, right? Not all tapioca maltodextrins will will turn uh fats uh into powders. In fact, uh almost none will, except for enzorbit, uh because of its particular structure, it's a bulking agent. Okay. That's why it's so so light.
+
+[45:29] Um so uh in the fat duck cookbook, Michael uh continues, Heston Blumenthal talks about Maltodextrin DE19, which he says is a low sweetness sugar that he uses to make savory ice creams. Are these the same or closely related products? Can I use my tapioca maltodexra in this kind of application? And would either of them be useful in making a low sweetness vegetarian, savory marshmallow. Okay.
+
+[45:53] Uh here are my two cents on that. Uh they're they're not not equivalent, okay. Um dextrins are so basically you take a starch. It could be tapioca, could be rice, could be, you know, anything, corn, could be whatever. And you have a starch, which is basically a length of repeating glucose chains, uh glucose uh units, right?
+
+[46:13] And you break it down into smaller things. So uh the smallest thing you can break them up into is is sugars, right? Uh, you know, glucose and glucose syrups. And then uh slightly longer, like you know, like eight, you know, eight, eight glucose units long, you have seven glucose units long. These are called maltodextrins, right?
+
+[46:32] And they can either be not sweet if the chain is fairly long. The longer a glucose chain is, the less sweet it is, right? So the longer chain maltodextrins aren't sweet at all, really. And so the endsorbit brand tapioca maltodextrin is uh not sweet at all. Uh, but it doesn't really act like sugar the same same way.
+
+[46:50] The shorter chain ones can start tasting sweet to you, right? So DE19 means that uh it has that that powder has the uh I think this has been a long time, but it's basically 19% as sweet as sugar per unit weight, right? Uh and and it's composed therefore for of fairly short glucose uh unit, you know, chains of glucose, right? Anything much higher than that, and you're dealing with like a glucose syrup, which are also not that sweet compared to sugar. You're talking on the order of like a fifth of the uh sweetness of sugar.
+
+[47:22] Uh and so you can use them for things like savory ice creams, which we do all the time at the school, we make a uh we make an ice cream uh that uh, you know, one of Nils's old recipes that is uh goat cheese ice cream, where we use glucose syrup, which has a s a slightly higher DE, i.e. slightly more sweet than uh than the the um multidextrin you're talking about, which is D of 19, we're like DE 20, D E in the low 20s range. Uh and we make like basically save not savory but not sweet ice creams with that. I don't know how useful they'd be for making a marshmallow because I don't know exactly how close the properties are to sugar, and sugar is not it's not only like a texture, it's a structural component in your in your uh marshmallows. So I would tend to think that you'd be better off using something like an isomalt.
+
+[48:04] Isomalt is half the sweetness of sugar, but cooks a lot like sugar. So for a marshmallow, I would go ahead and use something like isomalt. The uh the problem if you if if you uh if you use too much isomol, and I love isomalt, but if you use too much isomalt, like if someone eats like eight bags of isomalt uh um uh marshmallows, they're gonna get the poops. Because you don't digest it the same way necessarily, so like some of it goes as fiber, and so you can get you can get the poops from it. Uh anyway, so I'm told.
+
+[48:34] I've never gotten the poops from too much isomalt, but I got a cast on your stomach. I should feed some to Nastasha because you know, it if anyone says they're gonna have a problem with it, Nastasha will say she's gonna have a problem with it. Am I right about this? That's right. Yeah?
+
+[48:47] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so uh yeah, well, I had something else on that. Something else on sugar. Oh, I once tried to make uh savory marshmallows with this product called LyTess, which is a modified sugar product that has zero sweetness, but I don't even know if that stuff's on the market anymore.
+
+[49:03] I didn't have much success with it. It always uh absorbed too much water out of the air, and they got too they got too weepy. See, Michael's taking on a double-edged problem. First, he's got to get the good uh vegetarian marshmallow, which means you have to get the right carrageenan product to mix with it. Then to take it the next step and want to make it savory, then you gotta get the right kind of savory product.
+
+[49:21] I would definitely start with uh I would definitely start with uh with isomol. Definitely, definitely. Uh yeah, right, right, Nestor yes, no, yes. Okay. Yes.
+
+[49:31] Alright, so uh we Come on, Dave. Come on, Dave. What you have the goose question or you can answer that? Oh, the goose question. What was the goose question?
+
+[49:37] Did I get that one? Yeah. Number five. Give me the goose question. Other other than deep frying, this is from uh Adam.
+
+[49:45] Right. Other than deep frying, what would you suggest for cooking Christmas goose for the first time? My mother never let us have it because she thinks it's too greasy. I want to show her that she's wrong. Ha, goose.
+
+[49:54] It's an interesting problem. I have cooked goose uh several times. Uh it's sometimes hard to get like a meaty goose, and so it seems greasy or it seems tough because it's not, you know. I would goose. I mean, the question is, does you know, does he have a circulator?
+
+[50:11] We don't know. We don't know if he has a circulator. I mean goose goose would be great in a circulator and then crisped up in a really, really hot oven. Dang, cook a goose. I would do goose to try and render out if you if you're worried about greasiness.
+
+[50:23] I would try to render out as much of the fat. Now this is totally just off the top of my head, by the way. So, you know, take this with uh, you know, a box of salt instead of just a single grain. But uh I would um I would maybe do something like you do with a picking duck almost, where you you know, you kind of separate the skin away, uh, then you you know put the hot uh liquid over it, and then you allow it to air dry a little bit, and then I think you, you know, uh like with a fan, and then you could probably render out a good bit of the uh of the fat um and make it not so greasy. So I would tr I would I would treat it if you don't have a circulator, I would treat it as if it were a baking duck.
+
+[50:59] If I had a circulator I would break off the legs and then by the way Booker my my oldest son is started every five minutes he comes to me he's like I thought chickens made meat I didn't know you had to break the head off of a chicken to get chicken meat and then I'm like yes you have to break the head off a chicken to get chicken meat and he goes do you break the heads off of chickens I'm like no I mean I I I I would if I had to I mean I think it's you know kind of an obligation but he's like well why why not? I was like well you know we buy it from a butcher but it's he it's like so brutal he's like break the head off a chicken that's what he says break the head off of a turkey. That's like that's his imagery is that somehow you walk up to it it's alive and you break its head off which I guess not that far from the truth but it's just you know hearing an eight year old use terms like break the head off of anyway uh so uh if I had a circulator I'd break the legs off the tur off the goose and then uh cook them separately because they're gonna want to be uh at a higher temperature and cook for a long time to break it down whereas the breast meat's gonna get dry and overcooked if you if you let it go that long. So I would break it down uh do the breast low temp I would do it at probably 57 or 58 for about 45 minutes uh cool it down sear off the skin to crisp it up and then uh do the legs almost probably confit style uh but that's that's me but deep frying obviously a great alternative because deep frying is God's cooking technique. Uh uh what do you think?
+
+[52:16] Yes or no? Okay. So uh this I guess will be the last cooking issues of uh this year of 2010. We're gonna come back in 2011 a little bit of a uh an announcement Nils is uh Nils, the uh intrepid leader of the uh French culinary culinary program, is uh he's not leaving the the FCI, but he is uh changing his roles. He's stepping down from that role, he's going more on a consultant basis.
+
+[52:43] And so uh he came to us and I think we're gonna he's gonna be probably off the cooking issues mastead, he said, right? Because he's moving moving on doing other things. Is that what he said to us, Nastasha? Yeah. So that's that's big big news.
+
+[52:57] But uh, you know, he got put in uh in eater and various other blogs, uh kind of incorrect information uh about the the whole situation. Nils is just wanted to do some other stuff and is very is very, you know, time consuming, busy job running the culinary program at the French Culinary, especially because we're expanding and doing doing a lot of other things. And uh I think he just wanted to uh cook cook more and run schools less, right? Yes, that's a good way of putting it, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[53:26] Uh as as should anyone who likes to cook. They should be wanting to cook more. Uh and so that is all of our uh New Year's resolutions from here at Cooking Issues. Uh Cook More, and we'll catch you in the new year. Thanks for listening.
+
+[53:40] Happy holidays. Vicious Vicious. Oh, you dead.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of ten when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and their customers at Barterhouse tries to culture and and cultivate, I think are are are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take a an allocation of an 80 case made wine that they've got something special and it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in. And you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth degree, like we're not making a hundred thousand cases of Pinot Grigio and you know, flogging them all over New York, but the customers that get wine from us are kind of believing the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young winemakers who have a passion for doing it, and and we supply them with a market and we allow them to get their product out there to otherwise an untapped uh group of people. Oh, you daddy got me on the Happy New Year and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you Tuesdays from around 12, I guess, to 1245. Uh it's Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:33] Uh ready to oh, nice, nice. They have new features in the radio today. It's awesome. I love that. That's for the new year.
+
+[1:39] For all you people listening, those are the new year sound effects. Uh calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 for all your cooking-related questions, technical or not. And uh Jack, I hear we have a caller. Hello, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[1:56] Hey, how are you guys doing? I'm a big fan of the show. Thank you. I have a question about um using whipped cream chargers for uh rapid infusions. Right.
+
+[2:06] Um I was wondering if it could be used to infuse um and make flavored vinegars. Yeah, I don't see why not. Yeah. I've never tried it, but I don't see why not. We've done oils before.
+
+[2:17] Uh-huh. You know, so just you know, for quickly for people who don't know uh what we're talking about. Rapid infusion is a technique where uh we take uh nitrous oxide cartridges usually in uh these I ISI these whipped cream makers, so you can look them up under cream siphons or whatever on the or whippers on the on the internet. Some people use them to get high. We don't, I don't particularly enjoy the nitrous high.
+
+[2:39] And uh they under pressure basically force liquid into porous items, then you rapidly release the pressure, the liquid boils out, and uh and you and you flavor your liquid. And so the question, and we I normally do it with liquor, but the question is can you do it with vinegar? And I don't see why not. Have you tried it yet? I haven't tried.
+
+[2:56] I'm waiting on uh on my whipper to get here. I just ordered it through a friend of mine in a restaurant, so I'm trying to get it the cheap way through him. Right. Here here's some some guidelines. Uh the whenever I do uh water-based, and essentially I don't think that the vinegar is going to enhance the uh solubility too much of most of what you're working with.
+
+[3:15] I don't think it's gonna hinder it, but I don't think it's gonna help it. So my in general, when I do water-based work, you're gonna have to use uh probably a little bit more of the product, and then you're probably gonna have to let it sit a little a little bit longer. Every ingredient that you use has different uh kind of optimum infusion time. And so, you know, for chocolate, I find it's somewhere like a minute and a half or so. Uh I mean it all depends on on the on the product.
+
+[3:38] Some people I know do coffee for you know many minutes up to hours. Some people I know even overnight on something like coffee, uh, you know, cold. Um and so you're gonna have to play with your your amounts and how long you leave it uh leave it in. But I would definitely do it longer than any of the stuff quoted on the blog for liquor. And I would also, you know, take heed of uh the comments that people said that you know you're gonna want to wait, you know, uh, you know, s many several minutes after you uh vent it for the flavor to fully develop because I think that really is I don't know why, but I I really think it's a real real phenomenon.
+
+[4:14] Okay, cool. Could I ask one more quick question? Sure. Uh what about using them to um with cucumbers inside of it to kind of make a quick pickle in the charger? Do you think that would work?
+
+[4:25] It does. It doesn't work as well as a vacuum does. Uh at least I don't think. I mean, I haven't done I mean I tested it once, it works, but you know, I I I think uh do you have a vacuum machine or no? I do not, no.
+
+[4:38] All right, well then it's probably gonna be one of the better things you can uh you can do. Another way to do those kind of uh you know flash infusions, and we call them quick pickles too, but you have to be careful because when you're when you're pickling, you're actually kind of doing an exchange of fluids, and with it with all of these rapid infusion techniques, you're basically you're not exchanging any any fluids, right? You're just injecting fluids into what used to be air holes. So you're gonna you're gonna need a fairly strong uh flavor base to do it. And you're also gonna need um you're gonna you know not think of them as being preserved in any way.
+
+[5:09] And they're also things like cucumbers tend to get floppy because you inject it right away, and there hasn't been time for osmosis to kind of uh start up and for the the actual cucumber cells to leach out their uh their liquid because you're gonna put something in that's high in in salt, let's say, and uh or sugar or both, and they the liquid is gonna start migrating out of the uh out of the cells of the cucumber and it's gonna start getting uh floppy. So for like really crunchy, crisp results, you're not gonna want to let the stuff sit around a while. And it will work. Uh if uh if you're gonna do it that way though, I would say rather than use it the way that we say, I would make it cold so that uh it doesn't bubble out as much when you're when you're when you're uh releasing it, because the goal is to keep liquid in and not to have it kind of bubble out, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, absolutely.
+
+[5:54] Okay, well thanks. I'll post up on the blog with the vinegars if they work out well and let you guys know. No, cool, yeah. I hope so. I hope it works out for you.
+
+[6:00] Thanks for calling in. Thank you. So uh on a non-cooking related note, uh uh I we just spent the last uh ten minutes brushing muck off of my uh off of my weed. Well, yeah, anyway. It turns out that uh, you know, here in New York City we had uh some snow, not a lot really by normal standards, but for some reason like they decided not to plow it.
+
+[6:21] And Manhattan, they totally cleaned out. So I was like, oh, it's safe to take my bike that I shattered the rear fender on just before Christmas and haven't had time to fix because I'm lazy and stupid. And so then I rode across, and of course, as soon as they get over the bridge in Brooklyn, it's like it's like mucky snow mo snowmobiling on my bike, and so like my entire backside is sprayed with muck. That has nothing to do with anything. Okay, uh on to onto real cooking issues questions.
+
+[6:45] Uh by the way, uh we had some people ask us how our how our holiday we were both Christmas folks, so how is our Christmas and New Year's? Excellent. Yours, Nastasha? It was good. Yeah?
+
+[6:54] Mm-hmm. Not excellent? Not it was good. Good? Yes.
+
+[6:58] Oh, all right. Okay. Then uh with that, I will get right to the questions. Uh so uh a while back, Thanksgiving time, we had a uh a question from uh a listener who asked why he wasn't dead, because his mom used to basically take cookie uh t cookies, turkeys and salt them and put them uh out to in the in the kind of the back porch uh to kind of cure for a couple days, you know, not under refrigeration. And the question is why why not why not death?
+
+[7:24] Why didn't death ensue? And um, you know, I think it it has a lot to do with kind of the air drying effect that happened on it and the the salt levels and the herbs and XYZ, all these things kind of um you know go to s stop kind of bacteria from growing on the outside, which is where most of it's gonna grow because the inside's sterile, yada yada. Go back and listen to the podcast for the gory details. But um we had someone uh write in, uh Mark Rosenblatt, uh also from uh Brooklyn says that his mom used to do that uh in Long Island, but not with turkeys, did it with uh ducks, uh and would uh do the same thing with duck. Uh and so I will I will relate, uh I will relate what he says.
+
+[7:59] Uh he said um he grew up in Riverhead in eastern Long Island in the fifties and uh duck farms were plentiful, so his his mom would cook the ducks instead of turkey and fully prepare two or three ducks two days beforehand and left them to cure outside uh and uh wonder why they never got got sick. Uh her technique was if she would put whole cloves of garlic inside, which are anti antimicrobial, uh rub the but I don't I would never trust it to be antimicrobial, but it is. Uh rub the exteriors of the duck with a thick mixture of olive oil and crushed garlic. Of course that's actually like poison waiting to have could be poison where you have them from a botulism standpoint, but probably not. Uh you know anyway.
+
+[8:34] I mean like you know that garlic oil is one of the m it's it's like a dangerous can be a dangerous thing. Anyway, uh then coated the entire bird and a blanket of coarse uh coarse kosher salt, uh thereby stopping any botulism from happening, and wrapping the duck in wet newspaper, uh and um you know, because he used to deliver newspapers. And so the the newspaper would dry out and his brother once ate the newspaper and got really sick. And so his question is, is uh with the newspaper, the wet newspaper which does dry out, would that somehow kind of be a host for the bacteria and stop it from growing on the duck? I don't think so because you never want any sort of any kind of host for bacteria if you can help it growing next to something that that you're gonna eat.
+
+[9:10] Like there's no there's no beneficial protection from the newspaper. Uh I wonder whether or not the sickness was because of some sort of poison in the ink, like lead or some sort of crazy nonsense in in the ink. I don't know. I mean it's it's an interesting question, but I definitely wouldn't eat the newspaper uh in the future. But the newspaper, even if it's wet, if it's placed against a lot of kosher salt, you shouldn't get too much bacterial growth on it.
+
+[9:31] I think the salt is really what's uh by the way, these ducks were rinsed very thoroughly after they were uh after they were um cured before they were cooked. I shouldn't think that the newspaper would help, but it is interesting that your brother got sick. I wonder whether you know who knows? Poison maybe what do you think? But it's if he knew if it was a GI situation, it was a GI, but very interesting.
+
+[9:49] Thank you for writing in. Uh okay. Now, a question about venison. Um, hope you had a good holidays. We did.
+
+[9:56] Uh this is from Andy. He says uh he was lucky enough to to take down a deer. Uh we're a bow hunter, and he took down a deer this year, uh, and he's elbows deep, he says in venison, and he's psyched about it. He patched together a circulator, DIY circulator. The circulator, you know, is what we use to cook things at very uh accurately precise temperatures, usually in a water bath, but sometimes in fat or oil.
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+[10:15] And uh he wants to do a boneless venison loin as his first big meal out of it. And then are there any differences in the time uh temperature or timing for this as opposed to beef? Uh and he's thinking about 55 degrees Celsius for about an hour or a little longer. Any thoughts? Uh Andy, uh, I think that sounds about right.
+
+[10:30] Uh that's just about the right temperature. Uh, even uh even a s a shade lower, like 54 5 or something like that for a tenderloin, usually in beef. I should think the venison would be about the same. They the trick with venison in general is I don't know how old uh the animal you got was, but if there's any sort of tendency to a livery taste in the meat at all, um, which there shouldn't be in the loin, but you know, in other cuts of the venison, you're definitely gonna not want to cook it for uh too too long, or those livery notes can be accentuated. Sometimes, like when we cooked yak for a long time, uh those livery kind of notes, gamey notes actually kind of I think worked with the with the uh you know with the meat, uh, but I don't know that you necessarily want that in the venison.
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+[11:08] Um the only other question is is that some meats can feel tender, uh, but then you know, e when you cook them, they're tough even at these low low temperatures. But I should think that uh uh venison loin isn't gonna be that tough. I would cook a small piece of it uh at fifty-five for an hour and see whether you like it. I wouldn't go much longer because if it does cook like beef, which I'm assuming it it probably will, uh, then it's gonna start getting kind of fibery after that and won't be as good. But please write in and tell us how it is, and I'm curious to hear how your homemade uh circulator uh works out.
+
+[11:40] Okay. Um we had a uh another question. Uh this is an anonymous question. Uh he said, why does an egg that we stored in a mason jar with white truffles not coddle properly? The yolk was cooked perfectly, but the white didn't set up at all.
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+[11:54] The egg was not very old. If anything was only around a week old. Jeez, I've no, I never heard of that this. I've done a uh I did a preliminary uh you know web search uh, you know, and scientific literature search. I couldn't find any sort of active principle in um in you know truffles that would stop an egg white from setting.
+
+[12:11] My only theory is that is it was it was it stored at room temperature, which would accelerate the breakdown of the uh of the white to a thin white and make it so it doesn't set as nicely in a cotton preparation. But other than that, I can't see why uh a white wouldn't set, whereas the yolk would, because typically the you know, typically the uh the white would set much earlier, white would set start setting uh in and around 60 degrees Celsius at 140 uh and be you know basically custardy nice set at around 62 degrees Celsius, uh, you know, and then the egg wouldn't start setting the yolk wouldn't start setting up until uh you know, it would be runny at 62 and would start setting up at 63 get creamy and then get um you know get really firm uh around 65 or so. Now uh you know uh there's there's so many recipes for truffled uh omelets that I I'm I'm curious it's gotta be some sort of weird something going on. Like was the mason jar at room temperature? I can't think of anything.
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+[13:05] I can't think of anything. Anyway, uh, but I'll I will definitely ask around, and if any of our readers have heard anything, please uh please tell us. The other interesting point that uh this anonymous caller brings up is that uh they cook Udon noodles at salad for a brunch uh and uh they toss it in uh Meyer lemon vinaigrette. They had some left over, and so they decided to dehydrate it and then puff it. And they notice that the ones that have been soaking in vinegar uh seem to puff more than the normal ones that had just been cooked and uh and and you know blanched and left out and tried.
+
+[13:32] And um, so is there any question uh why would they puff bigger with the acid? And I have no idea actually. Uh it's interesting. I did a preliminary research on that, and I couldn't find anything specifically with acid and puffing, but uh it might be possible that there's some sort of effect. I mean, acid obviously weakens gluten, but I don't know if it's gonna weaken gluten in products that have already been cooked or not.
+
+[13:52] So if you if you somehow are weakening the gluten structure and the and the udon hadn't been completely overcooked, because remember when I puff anything, I overcook the bee Jesus out of it. So perhaps there's some sort of weakening there, and perhaps then it only works on wheat versus uh on wheat based uh noodles versus, for instance, puffing uh like a tapioca starch or something like that. That would be the that would be the kicker. If you did a test and you said, okay, look, I'm gonna do a buckwheat noodle. Of course that has you're gonna put wheat in that too.
+
+[14:17] If I'm gonna do like tapioca or some other kind of noodle and puff it with an acid and see whether that also works. Then if if it also puffs more with an acid in that situation, then obviously it's not the gluten. But uh I hope this anonymous uh reader will uh give us some more information because I'd like to I'd like to experiment on this more. But I love observations like this. Maybe we'll learn maybe we'll all learn something, right?
+
+[14:36] Yeah. Uh here we have a caller. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Colin Gord down in DC.
+
+[14:43] I called in a couple weeks ago asking about uh, you know, possibly using some pectonics to clear up some sweet potato Yes. And we talked about that because we ran some tests. I couldn't get it to work, even with a centrifuge. Did you get it to work? Um, so I got basically I've been toying with it.
+
+[15:02] I have never uh like I've seen a lot of interesting things that you know it weren't wasn't what I was going for, but now I'm calling in to like maybe get some tips on where to go from here. Alright, so what so what was your experience? So what is that? What yeah, what'd you do? Tell me what you did.
+
+[15:19] Alright, so what I did was I mean, first thing I did was ran just the sweet potatoes through uh my room they had a champion juicer, so that was perfect. Uh you know, I've I I had never juiced anything that was like a tuber before, but it was uh or you know, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot because they're not like nice and juicy, seeming like an apple, but still got like maybe sixty percent yield. That's pretty good. Pretty pretty sweet. It's pretty good.
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+[15:46] So at least compared to what I was expecting, right? And then um so once you have the juice, uh, you know, I had it in a glass jar. I saw and you could see that there was a lot of starch settling out. Right. You get like a white starchy powder at the b at the bottom.
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+[16:02] Well the funny thing is you get like a white starchy powder and then stuff that is kind of like acts like starch, but is also more like orange, like the potato. Right, like the mixed layer. The cells were still kind of adhered to some stuff I don't know. Right. Uh I I know what you're talking about.
+
+[16:20] We had the same thing happen. Then what'd you do? Then all right. Then first time I just hit it with some additional amylase, some additional uh beta. Whatever you get from a brewery supply?
+
+[16:35] Yeah, from the home like at home brew stores, they sell a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a big I think they're mixes. I think they're actually mixes of alpha and beta amylase, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'd have to look it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:44] And then I don't have my no I don't have my notes in front of me, but but then I you know, put it in, sealed it up in a mason jar, put it in a circulator bath to a kind of lower lower mashing temperature to try to convert a lot of the starches over to sugars, because it was going for like a sugary syrup to uh simmer down into a caramel. Right. Right. And uh how much of the starch did he did you agitate it? Um no, I left it sick, so I wanted the starch to settle out to the bottom so I could kind of decamp the stuff off.
+
+[17:17] Right, but the amylase if you agitate it would actually help break down some of the starch, no? Although maybe not if it's locked. Yeah, that would be that'd be a good plan, yeah. I mean, like what I would do like before we go further, because I want to hear the rest of it, uh what I would do in the f the next test, I would cook the starch out a little bit, then cool it, then add the amylase because then you could burst it and you're 'cause the amylase might have if you have intact cells in there, the amylase is gonna have trouble getting to the uh getting to the starch maybe, unless it's been cooked out a little bit. Yeah.
+
+[17:43] Maybe go ahead. What kind of temperature range would you say for uh that first step? Ooh, I don't know. I'd have to go look at my you know, a good book is the uh eag like for starches in general and pasting and all that is uh and all this is Egan Egan Press has a book on starches. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:00] I mean they're great, they're a great series of books that all of those uh Yeah, yeah, I got the Hydrocolors one a while back. Yeah, their starch book's pretty good. Their starch books good, their nutritive sweetener books pretty good. Um and you can get 'em all for ninety-nine bucks online, actually, uh, if they still run that deal. It's hard to find, but you can get 'em all.
+
+[18:15] So yeah, so then what'd you do? You you settled it out and then uh that did what what would what the stuff tastes like. Well, well, so actually the interesting thing was uh, you know, I had left it to mash out for a good long time just to you know, kind of uh I mean, partially 'cause I didn't come back for a day, and unfortunately what had what had happened is the water bath had evaporated below the temperature probe. So it ended up just boiling the hell out of that shit. First rule, first rule, first rule of running a circulator, folks, out there in in internet land, is always, always cover your circulator so that you don't especially on a long cookout to not evaporate all your liquid off.
+
+[18:59] It's a classic, classic uh problem. Yes. Well the good news is is that you'll never do that again. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm just glad I cut it in time before I burn, you know, burn out the heating coil or anything.
+
+[19:11] But but but but the magic thing is that uh it looks like this boiling, this like boiling step at the end has caused the kind of sugary syrupy water to separate out in a way that I have not been able to replicate since. Oh yeah. Uh yeah. So I I I figured it what it was just sort of setting the starches and sort of at the bottom there. Uh and yeah, that was the only time that I was able to get a very nice kind of uh translucent caramel out of it.
+
+[19:47] Okay, this is very interesting to me. Uh the you gotta try to replicate it. I had the same thing happen once. The worst thing in the world is when you're cooking and you do something wrong and you don't and you d ha don't aren't able to like you know replicate it and you love the result. This has happened to me I made a durian caramel by accident in a pressure cooker that was incredible, like had no sulfur note, tasted like durian, but wasn't offensive to like the most mild western noses.
+
+[20:14] Oh awesome, rich, not burnt, and we went through probably fifteen fifteen durian trying to get that back, and we've never been able to do it. So I wish you better luck with the you def well, we should try so we'll try some of the beta amylase and alpha amylase to see that we can replicate, but I definitely wish you more luck uh in replicating it, and uh you should call back again and tell us uh tell us what happens. We right now though, we have to go I've been told that I have to go to a break. We're going to a break. But call back and tell us what happens, Con.
+
+[20:42] We're we're interested in it. Cooking issues. Oh, how you feel, bro? Feeling good. You feel good?
+
+[20:47] It's true. How do you feel, man? I'll feel all right. I don't want to know you're in, yeah. I feel fellow.
+
+[20:58] You're gonna have a bump good time. Ah We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump cut dye. We're gonna have a bump cut dye. We gotta take high.
+
+[21:29] Alright! And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call in all your cooking questions to 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. Jack in the control room tells me that we might be able to go a little bit long today because we had some questions come in over the New Year's break. By the way, speaking of New Year's break, I know, I know we have not been writing a lot.
+
+[21:55] When I say we, I mean me, have not been writing a lot uh in the blog recently. I just wanted to spend some time with my family over the holidays, alright? No. Uh we're gonna get back on the stick and we'll, you know, I'll be I'll be writing some stuff real soon, we hope. So please, no, no uh no hate mail about how I haven't been writing anything.
+
+[22:14] Um okay. Uh speaking of uh sweet potatoes, we had a s you know, Colin called in with a sweet potato question. We have a an actually a question about sweet potatoes, uh, which is good. And it comes from uh Eliza Kwanbeck, and she writes, my boyfriend and I have been having an ongoing discussion about the difference between tarot, tapioca, manioc, yam, and sweet potato. Uh they spent a summer backpacking through Southeast Asia, taking cooking courses in every country we pass through.
+
+[22:39] Yeah, that sounds nice. Yeah, it does. I'd like to do that. Uh and in Malaysian Borneo, we took a cooking class and made Berber cha cha, which sounds awesome. I've never had it or heard of it, but I'll eat anything called Berber Chacha, which is a coconut yam taro porridge flavored with pondan leaves.
+
+[22:52] I love pandan. We uh panan is a leaf that has a little bit of a kind of a vanilla taste. For those of you that don't know, you can get it in uh in Southeast Asian groceries, uh Thai groceries, uh, you know, anything like that. And um it comes usually frozen, and sometimes the frozen one can have a little bit of a fishy taste when it's thought out, but it's used in a lot of dessert preps, and we uh used to make a really good uh sugar cookie out of it. Instead of vanilla, we would we basically uh blitzed the uh leaves with butter, heated it, and decanted the butter off and used that to make cookies, and and they were like this amazing green color, like pistachio green color, and uh with a like that pondon pondon flavor that you can't you know really replicate without the leaves because I think the extracts are crap, you know, the flavorings.
+
+[23:32] Anyway, uh that's uh off topic, but delicious. Um you know, she basically got into a bunch of arguments about uh, you know, what these different things are, what the different starches are, where they come from, etc. etc. etc. All right, uh uh Eliza.
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+[23:47] First of all, uh this is giving me a great opportunity to pump uh a series of books that I think everyone should own as many of as they can. And it's the uh Brooklyn Botanic Garden, that is Brooklyn Botanic Garden series. Uh and they have a series of small guides that are all really, really cheap. You can get them online, actually. If you go to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, if you become a member, they send you like 10 for nothing, and they're like, you can get them for like five to twelve bucks.
+
+[24:11] I mean, they're amazing. But the one I'm gonna talk about today, it and it has snappy titles, which I really enjoy. Uh I love I like a snappy title. It's called Buried Treasures, Tasty Tubers of the World. Uh and it and what I like about these guides is you can read them kind of in one you know quick session.
+
+[24:29] Uh, you know, I don't know, when you're sitting on the hopper or something. It's only like a hundred pages, a lot of good pictures, a lot of good information. Um, and so uh I read it this morning, not on the hopper, please. Uh, and uh, but I recommend that series. They also have a really good uh book called The Best Apples to Buy and Grow.
+
+[24:46] Uh but here is my and they have a lot of really more rare, interesting tubers, corms, rhizomes, everything in that book that you can go take take a look at. But here's the quick breakdown. I know I'm gonna get some of this wrong, so please no hate mail. You can just correct me uh if I'm wrong. The sweet potato, uh, which I can't possibly pronounce the Latin name, is it's like ipo Ippamoya batatas, I can't pronounce it, but anyway, sweet potato uh is is from uh South America.
+
+[25:14] It's been cultivated for many, many years, like 10,000 years. Um, it went early pre-Columbian times, probably to Polynesia, and then uh, you know, after you know, the kind of you know, Great Columbian Seed Exchange, whatever, uh, went uh the other way uh over to Africa. It's grown all over the world. They grow a lot of it in China, it's fed to pigs, they make starch uh for noodles. It's also it's it's you know incredibly delicious.
+
+[25:36] Uh the white varieties of it are still just a sweet potato, the uh boneados are still they're just sweet potatoes. They're the same uh style, different cultivars, they're l they're less sweet. That is a sweet potato. Everything it usually in a New York in a sorry in a United States supermarket, things labeled yams are actually sweet potatoes. Luckily, the US government requires it somewhere on the box, it also says sweet potato, even if it says yam.
+
+[25:59] Okay. The actual yam, uh Dioscoria alata, is from East Asia, uh, but it made it to Africa well over a thousand years ago, and then from there to the West Indies, uh, you know, um, in I guess the 1500s or so. There's many, many varieties of it. The yam is is distinct, right? The yam, uh unlike the sweet potato, which can be eaten raw, the yam uh has to be cooked.
+
+[26:21] Okay, you have to you have to cook again. You can't you can't eat it raw. Um I don't really know much about yam starch. I think most of the stuff that I see is starch is uh sweet potato starch, which is entirely different from potato starch, entirely different from uh tapioca manioc cassava starch, okay? So that's kind of sweet potato versus yam.
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+[26:39] Now, taro, right, uh colo Casia esquilenta, right, you have to they like you have to cook uh that stuff because it contains some calcium oxalate, I think. Uh it's a corn, it comes from India, but went to Southeast Asia a long, long, long, long, long time ago, right? Uh that's what taro chips are made out of. In Hawaii, that's what poi is made out of. Taro cakes you get in uh in China, like that's all tarot, right?
+
+[27:03] There's a different thing called giant tarot, right? That's from Sri Lanka that w uh went uh also to the Pacific Islands, also needs to be cooked because of uh calcium oxalate, and and if you eat it, it'll like it'll taste like like thousands of of sharp little needles, and it's very unpleasant. So it's very, you know, don't want to do it. You want to cook it to get rid of it. Sometimes you want to cook it, you want to cook it.
+
+[27:24] I think that's with a pinch of baking soda helps uh neutralize it. I think, but I'm not sure. Uh I don't I don't do it do a lot of work on it. Okay. Then uh kind of the answer to tarot from uh the South America is uh Yautia, right?
+
+[27:36] It's the same family as tarot. And so basically, like uh Yautia and taro, you can kind of interchange uh those those two things, right? Uh so anyway, so that's that. Now, an entirely separate ball of wax is the and these are all the same damn thing, just from different different names, different places. Manioc, cassava, tapioca, and yucca, right?
+
+[27:55] Those are all uh manahad esqualenta. I can't pronounce any of this, so please don't come back on me. They th these are like, you know, uh relatively recent, i.e. like a thousand BC. Uh they're all that's from South America, but it's spread all over the world.
+
+[28:08] You like now there's two kinds, right? There's the there's the the the sweet kind and then the not sweet kind, and then they all contain certain amounts of compounds that turn into cyanide. So you you definitely want to uh cook them, but the all the varieties usually you buy in the supermarkets now, um, you know, you can just cook them and eat them. You don't need to like s grind them, soak them overnight to get rid of the cyanide compounds and wash them and then you know and process them. Uh but in the old in the old days you did, or or um you'd die.
+
+[28:36] Anyway, but uh most of the varieties that are cultivated now, uh you don't have to do that. And so that's where tapioca starch comes from, which is what they make the little pearls out of in bubble tea, to the best of my knowledge. And it's also uh what um you know, tapioca starch is very interesting. It's a different shape starch from uh many other starches. It's it's got a characteristic what's called kettle drum shape.
+
+[28:56] You're gonna want to look uh a good source for different starches is National Starch Corporation and or the International Starch Uh Council, I think, has a website. And the Egan Press mentioned earlier a book on starches, uh which you can get from the American Association of Serial Chemists, uh uh has a good stuff on um tapioca starch, but tapioca starch, aside from its interesting kettle drum shape, uh, is world-renowned for being very bland, so it doesn't uh cause a lot of flavoring uh to you know to things because it's bland. Uh it also uh is used in puff snacks because it has very good uh expansion properties because it has a nice uh amylo amylopectin breakdown. Uh so uh, you know. Anyway, also those things, yuca maniacca uh uh cassava tapioca, you'll often find a thick coating of wax over it, because if not, they kind of turn to crap pretty quick in the uh in the supermarket.
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+[29:44] So how is how's that, Nastasha? That was very informative. Quick quick rundown? Did it make any make any dang sense at all? It did.
+
+[29:50] Did uh all right. Let's take another break before we get back to the back. Alright, so listen, we're gonna take another commercial break, but call in your questions too. 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[30:07] How you feel, man? I'll feel all right. I don't want any people to know you in here. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down.
+
+[30:17] Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[30:35] Don't take them up, Brad. We gotta take a high. All right. Yeah, let's go on back. We gotta take high.
+
+[30:59] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two cores. And then I wanna wave in. Let's go until that we did it.
+
+[31:06] Now alright. All right, all right. You know, we're gonna we're gonna talk this cooking issues. Welcome back. 718-497-2128.
+
+[31:14] That's 718-497-2128. We actually had a question about our songs, and we're gonna uh talk about them later. For those of you that actually know that song already, which uh oh, I won't spoil it. I won't spoil it. Uh okay.
+
+[31:24] So we had a question about carbonation, one of my favorite things. I've never actually written about it on the blog. Uh I guess just because most of the research I've done on carbonation, I did kind of so long before I had the blog that I just never bothered uh writing about it. But you know, maybe someday, if I ever get the time, we'll write a uh uh a primer on it. Um again, I will write a primer on is what I mean to say.
+
+[31:45] Uh so the question is do you have any thoughts about the uh EC slash ISI? Like both are correct, but I think they're moving towards Nastasha, which one of the C they're moving towards EC. Uh do you have any thoughts on the EC twist and sparkle carbonation system? It seems like it solves a lot of the problems you have with soda siphons and it's cheaper and smaller than the soda stream, uh, but still um does use small cartridges. Long term, I'd like to get a system with a 20-pound CO2 tank, and and this is from Sam, and yes, Sam, you should get a 20-pound CO2 tank.
+
+[32:12] At the very minimum, a five-pound CO2 tank, Sam. Minimum. Anyway, uh, but I'm a student, and I'll probably be moving a few times in the next few years, so it's not practical to purchase at the moment. Uh I'm also considering as a gift from my parents who buy fizzy water by the case but are not going to be interested in driving around with big CO2 tanks. Hey, they're not that big, Sam.
+
+[32:28] They're not that big. I live in a tiny, tiny apartment, right? I live in a an 800 square foot apartment with uh two rambunctious kids. Uh and and I have not one but two 20-pound CO2 tanks in there. Anyway, I'm not saying you have to do it.
+
+[32:45] I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm just saying you can do it. I know you can do it, Sam. Anyway, uh a couple more questions I can't seem to find the answers to. How much water can I carbonate with the eight gram cartridges the system comes with?
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+[32:55] Are the cartridges proprietary? Can they be purchased more cheaply from someone besides uh EC or in bulk, and how well does it work? Okay. Uh I can't tell you that you can buy it from someone else, but all of those cartridges are uh pretty much uh pretty much the same. Um EC's, you know, guarantee I shouldn't say this, I'm gonna get my my butt handed to me by the EC Corporation because I'm friends with those guys.
+
+[33:16] But uh, you know, they claim that their cartridges are all very accurately weighed out, uh, etc. etc. They're they're very pure. You can only get really one bottle of uh water out of the eight gram cartridge, and therein is the rub. So for me, it's more of for bars uh who don't want to invest in a carbonation system to maybe do drinks.
+
+[33:33] And for me to really carbonate a drink, it's gonna take two cartridges because I have to blast off some of the uh stuff. Uh and so I I'd hate to say this, but I think if you're gonna make a lot of seltzer at home uh and you want a smaller system, that you know it's gonna cost a lot very quickly to run through cartridges if you're actually drinking a lot of soda water and uh EC is gonna come tear my head off. But I would definitely in that situation, if you don't want to go for a uh five or twenty-pound CO2 tank, I would go for the soda stream. I'm gonna get my butt handed to me. That's okay, you're telling the truth.
+
+[34:03] But I would go for the soda stream. I know many people that have it who don't want to have the five, twenty-pound CO2 tanks, you get a a lot more charges out of the um out of the refill um because you're just gonna go you're gonna run through CO2 cartridges like the end of the world is coming with uh with the twist and sparkles. Now the advantage of the twist and sparkle is that you can do liquor and other things in it that they tell you with the uh with the soda stream that you can't do because of foaming problems. I I've never I don't own a soda stream, but I I'm thinking that I can modify one to do drinks like pretty cheaply just by adding a little extender tube to it. But I would definitely consider getting the um you can get the starting level um soda stream, I think, for under $100, like $79.
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+[34:46] And I think it'd pay for itself pretty quick in terms of uh in terms of chargers. But uh I've probably just cut off my nose despite my face. We probably will never work for EC again. But uh Sam, those are my those are my feelings. Uh it oh, it it works, it works fine.
+
+[34:59] Uh as long as you chill it, uh really, really chill your li uh liquids, keep your levels uh accurate. But I usually put two chargers in to really get uh a really strong charge in it because I like it really, really, really fizzy. Uh and so I really feel like you're gonna blast through cartridges with it. Uh I can't believe I say this on air because I'm gonna get I'm gonna get in trouble. Anyway, uh uh here we have a caller.
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+[35:18] Caller, you are on the air. Hi, I'm Brian. Um calling from San Francisco. Happy New Year to you, Dave. Happy New Year.
+
+[35:26] Um thank you. Uh so I have two questions um which are unrelated. Um I'm hoping you can answer um them both. Um so I'll I'll ask them both uh right now. Um and the first question is regarding um distillation.
+
+[35:41] I've noticed um that there's a lot of kind of distillation equipment. I'm guessing I'm sort of interested in making my own um kinds of essential oils. I bought um a number of essential oils from um from Mandy Aftel in the past. Um and now should pardon me? Friend of cooking issues, by the way, Mandy Aftel.
+
+[36:01] Yes, yeah. Yes, yes. Um have uh have um and I've used them and they're they're really delicious, and so now I'm interested in sort of making my own. Um and I'm wondering what kind of setup you might recommend to um begin to uh start um doing making my own essential oils and um hydrosols. So that's question number one.
+
+[36:24] Um and the second question um has to do with pectin, um, which is I've tried m making my own um patch free and I haven't had a lot of success. Um and I've used a couple of different um supermarket pectins um over the counter. Um I've done some reading and one was said that certo, which is the liquid kind, I tried and um that was supposed to be okay, and the other was like Pomonas or Ramonas or something something like that, um, and that that was supposed to work, but I haven't had any success. Um so I'm hoping that you might be able to uh um give a little help me with that and give a little one on one on on pectins as some sources for getting them. So let's go in reverse.
+
+[37:07] Uh what's your problem with it? Um not setting. Huh. Not setting. And uh do you you're making sure that your acid levels are high enough and your sugar levels are high enough?
+
+[37:18] I mean the main thing with pectins. I mean, I used it for like cumquat, you know, so it was pretty high acid. And but what about the sugar levels? It was still pretty high. Yeah.
+
+[37:28] I mean, maybe and I boiled it for a while. Right. You're gonna w you I don't I don't have off the top of my head off my head what the the numbers are, but pe uh regular pectin in order to set needs very high solids level, and uh, you know, which means like a lot of a lot of sugars and also acids. Cumquat should be acidic enough to set it. Uh then the question is is how high is the solids level, which is going to be then determined by the temperatures.
+
+[37:54] Now, presumably you're taking the temperature high enough that um your solids level is gonna be high enough. That that could be a source of the problem, not taking the temperature high enough, or if you took the temperature high enough, then adding another liquid that's going to um dilute it back down below the solids level where it's gonna set properly. Um you know, the the the different pectins you can get a lot of times are gonna be apple based or citrus based. Um it it I don't I don't know any of the store brands. I've never used any of any of them.
+
+[38:25] Um, you know, I I tend to use more of like the the weirder ones for kind of hydr hydrocholid applications because that's what people ask me for, and those ones you can use in lower solids and with lower sugars, but they require things like calcium to set. That's one of the pectins they use for kind of low sugar jams and things like that. Those are like, you know, um those are different kinds of like like low low methoxy amidate LMA, you might hear it called. What kind of calcium do you want uh or how do you recommend adding the calcium to those? Oh, you just add like you know, like a like uh gluconate.
+
+[38:54] I use calcium lactate glucose. It doesn't require that much. And in there's uh there's low methoxy pectin. The problem is it's very sensitive to calcium levels, so that if you know if you put too much, it's a problem, put too little, and there's low methoxy amidated, which is like less, it's more it's a little more bulletproof. But regular pectin should work unless you don't have a solids content high enough, which means you're probably not cooking to a high enough temperature.
+
+[39:16] That's the only thing I can think of. Um you say solids content, what what what what do you mean by that? Uh so in other words, like the you know, the your jelly is a certain percent, let's just break it, forget all the flavors, right? There's acid, whatever, blah blah blah, but it's a certain percent sugar and a certain percent water, right? And so you need to have the solids content, i.e.
+
+[39:34] sugar content, high enough for the pectin to gel properly. I mean, that's kind of like that's what pectin needs. It's so the two classic things to go wrong with with pectin-based things are you don't have enough uh the the solids levels aren't high enough, the sugars aren't high enough, or uh the acid levels not high enough. And those are the two kinds of things that you always want to want to look to first. Now, uh what was the first question again?
+
+[39:58] I got because I had to answer to it in my head. It has to do with distillation and essential oils. Okay. Now, a lot of people want to use like the stuff that I have, like a rotary evaporator, uh, all the kinds of things for distillation for essential oil. So much money.
+
+[40:09] Well, not too much money, yes, also, but uh also not effective. What you want to do for that is steam distillation, right? And so in a steam distillation setup, uh, I mean, in that's what I would buy. I've never done essential oil distillation, but I've considered buying a rig for it. And the good news is they're cheap and they're fairly effective.
+
+[40:25] And what you're what you're doing then is you're packing a column with uh your product and you're you're basically boiling steam is going through it, rupturing the cells, and the steam is carrying with it the essential oils, recondensing on the other side. The oils will float to the top or some to the bottom, depends. Some are actually heavier than water, right? And the stuff and the stuff that is left over that's water is the hydrosol. And so it's actually um you know the main problem is your yields usually are quite low, but it's definitely something that that can be done.
+
+[40:53] It's legal, it's not illegal to do because you're not using uh uh alcohol for it, you're using uh water. And so I would go definitely check out uh steam distillation. You should be able to get a whole small rig to test uh on eBay the parts for it for under uh a hundred bucks. You just want to make sure, you know, just well I saw that there was some that were vacuum uh distillation. Um there was a couple of rigs that were oh you know, under two hundred bucks.
+
+[41:19] First first for essential oils? It didn't say I mean they were sort of chemistry type type of equipment. I just typed in um steam distillation, uh vacuum steam distillation, and it there was a couple things that popped up on on Amazon, actually. Um I mean they're not they're not rotary evaporators, but would within in that case could you see you know uh it being done under vacuum being being helpful. Uh well I I think it might uh I've never done the test, but I think it it might actually be detrimental.
+
+[41:49] I mean I can't I get oils across when I'm doing rotovap distillation sometimes, but it's very small quantities and they're dissolved. Obviously they're dissolved in alcohol because I'm doing it in alcohol and a lot of these things are soluble in alcohol to a certain degree. Uh and I'll I do get oozo kind of effects uh when I water stuff down and some stuff, so you know there is oil in there, right? But um, you know, I I uh I think that the high temperature of the steam, which is helping to rupture the cells, is a is a benefit for uh the steam distillation, and I think that you might not uh get uh that kind of action if you put it under a vacuum. Because the main thing a vacuum is gonna do for you is lower the temperature at which everything boils.
+
+[42:26] Now you can get a more gentle result that way, but I don't think you're gonna get um I don't think you're gonna get uh a high enough yield of uh of essential oil to really have it be worthwhile. I don't know. Now you could try that you know I the one thing for essential oil extraction that I've tried only once or twice, but haven't really had success with is uh butane uh uh extraction, which is used by uh potheads for doing um for you know making honey oil out of uh out of uh swag weed and uh you know and I have it and the honey bee is the extractor that you use for that. And I I I've tried it once and I wasn't able to get a good result, but that's another thing I like to try. But I would definitely go for a regular standard uh steam distillation rig, uh which is pretty cheap, and I think you're gonna get good results.
+
+[43:10] I haven't in other words, I haven't done enough experimentation to figure out how to do it at a low temperature. Do you know what I mean? Okay. But and the ones that are produced aren't really produced at a low temperature unless they're super critical fluid CO2 extract and stuff anyway, and that's beyond most of our reaches, mine included, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
+
+[43:26] Okay, great. Um sounds within within my price range and and worth uh experimenting with. Definitely. And uh write back or call us and tell us how it works, all right? I will, Dave.
+
+[43:36] Okay, thanks a lot. All right, bye. Um Jack, should we go to another one or should I just finish out uh our questions? What do you think? Should we go to another break or should I finish out my questions?
+
+[43:45] No, I'll keep going. Keep going? Nice. Uh okay. So Ken, who wrote us about the uh Arabie, uh the Airby Aeropress, the Aero Press Coffee.
+
+[43:55] Um, he uh wrote back uh just basically talking to us about the air press. The Aero Press, for those of you that know, was invented by the guy that invented the Arabie, and um it's basically uh a piston that you put coffee in and then you apply pressure to the piston and you force uh the water through the like a puck, a brewing puck, and it makes basically supposedly a very high quality of uh like a mocha style coffee, not true espresso. Um and then uh but um Ken writes that there's this interesting thing. He says some aeropress power users dramatically increase the danger or the drama of using an aeropress by and they're only forty bucks. We gotta order one.
+
+[44:31] I I I meant to make a mental note to order one before I showed up on Amazon so I could say I've ordered it. Did someone say they were gonna let us borrow theirs? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[44:40] Anyway, some aeropress power users dramatically increase the danger of using aeropress by brewing with the machine upside down and using a polyester or metal metal filter instead of the paper filter to take full advantage of the bloom. I the oil, you know, the coming out coffee oil uh that has uh some yummies in it, and you can preserve them by brewing upside down and flipping the device over on end. Uh I suspect at least some people understandably conflate bloom with crema or maybe the benefits of crema. Uh very interesting. I hadn't thought about this.
+
+[45:04] And basically the point is is that let's say you're uh um let's say you are a uh uh um a French press person, right? So you take coffee and you push uh and the he points me to a website which uh I then I'll just read a little bit from the from the the the website. Uh and this is from I didn't write down the person's name. You know why? It's because I'm an idiot.
+
+[45:22] Oh, Scott Markhart. Anyway, the Aero Press uh gives its user unprecedented control over brewing variables, yielding a great cup of coffee, but there's trouble in paradise. It has a shortcoming. Fans of the venerable French press will understand immediately because they are accustomed to a cup that offers a complex flavor of coffee's natural oils. They are lost in a paper filtration systems like the aeropress.
+
+[45:40] On the other hand, many people do not enjoy the fines that a French press delivers in the brew. They embitter the bottom of the cup as they cause overextraction there and they have a bad mouthfeel. So we're caught between a rock and a hard place. And so what he does is he flips the aero press over, runs it in reverse. And I've always had a lot of uh problems with um French press in general.
+
+[45:57] One of which is that you can pack the the the grounds down at the bottom. The other is that they don't offer temperature control, which is dumb. The only attempt at a temperature controlled thing similar to a French press was the clover, and that cost like 17,000 dollars or something absurd like that. Until Starbucks bought them, and I don't even know who the heck has them anymore. Anyway, um so uh that's an interesting question.
+
+[46:15] So now I am uh mentally this morning spent an hour or so just sitting around thinking about um I don't know how to make a uh a French press slash Arabie that had all of the good results that without having you know stuff spraying all over my shirt. So so Ken, there definitely will be more uh thinking and talking on the Aero Press and its kin uh in in the future. We're I'm definitely gonna be researching that in the in the new year. Um now. Uh sorry folks, uh flipping through the uh flipping through the thing.
+
+[46:48] We have uh, by the way, if you call in the next 10 seconds, I will give you a free pork chop. And you will have the last and I just made that up. But I will. I'll give them a free pork chop. Anyway, um we had an interesting question, and it's uh it's a non cooking related question.
+
+[47:01] And I think I'll uh round out on that. I'm making sure that I'm not missing anyone uh else's um questions. Oh, I am missing someone's questions. Sorry, folks. Uh we have uh Howard from Montreal writes in and said he just started listening to the show over the holidays and he's loving every minute of it.
+
+[47:16] Thank you. Uh and uh he basically uh listened to the Berlin show, and he was we talked then about a mixture of uh sodium chloride and calcium chloride to reduce sodium intake. Uh and he says that uh his aunt uses this, and uh and basically uh he's wondering whether or not uh we were talking about like adding ions to things to basically increase the volatility, etc. etc. And and he was saying I'll just read it word for word rather than try to paraphrase it because I'm I'm butchering what he what he's trying to say.
+
+[47:43] So uh the effects I'm talking about, altering the solubility of volatiles, brining meat, bread, all seem to be related to ionic strength of the liquid. The higher the ionic strength, the more polar the aqueous phase, which in turn drives off organics. Similarly, in high ionic strengths, uh will alter the tertiary structure of proteins, such as gluten and bread. The brining process is slightly different, but the salts are driven into the meat, et cetera, et cetera. Assuming this theory is true, any soluble compound should be used instead of salt to achieve these effects.
+
+[48:06] However, I think the shielding effects of salt ions play an important role in the disruption of tertiary protein structure. As such, KCl should be a close substitute for NACL, although MGCL2 might be preferred in certain situations, but then you run into coagulations due to the dival divalent ca cation um uh magnesium's divalent cation. Anyway, what are your thoughts? Uh I don't have that many thoughts on it, only to say that um it's not only um uh me I I you know Howard, I just wanted to read this because I'm not ignoring your question. Uh I haven't um I haven't thought about it.
+
+[48:38] And I don't have enough time to think about it on air right now, right, Nastasha? But I I will think more about it. Obviously, uh there's certain things that different uh cations, for instance, calcium has specific results with uh specific uh in specific systems like hydrocolloids, sodium uh has uh certain results. But obviously just shifting the ionic balance of whatever you're gonna do with is going to mess with the protein structure. Uh but I haven't thought enough about it to uh to to really know.
+
+[49:03] But yes, you mean for instance, when you're brinding something, actually kind of like like like polyphosphates like uh tend to e like even alter the water binding protein uh water binding of protein more than uh regular sodium, like sodium polyphosphates tend to alter the the binding uh quite a bit more. Um so they're not probably all the same, but yes, they all work somewhat. Now, uh sorry uh that's like a long rambling like bunch of stuff from uh from Dave Arnold in the New Year's, having his brain go on Fritz in the middle of the radio. But here's a question I can answer answer, and it comes from Paul, uh, and it's not a cooking-related question. It's what are the two pieces of music on the Cooking Issues Radio Show podcast.
+
+[49:40] There uh and it's interesting, he thinks it's fish is fish is vodka is the intro, is what he said, which I love Fish is Fish. It's a great book. I used to read that to my kids all the time, Fish is Fish. Uh and uh we're gonna have a fun good time, uh, which is the one that is in the middle of the uh of the show. Uh, and he haven't had much uh luck googling the songs.
+
+[49:57] Okay, I'm gonna do it in reverse. The f the one in the middle is Doing It to Death by James Brown. Uh sometimes called Have a Funky Good Time, but that's not what it is. It's called Doing It to Death. And uh that song was uh released in 1973, uh and it's with the JBs and it's got it's amazing, it's got Macy O'Parker, it's got Fred Thomas.
+
+[50:17] And uh the reason I uh James Brown got me through many, many, many years, uh like late nights in the studio, uh welding at four in the morning. I would crank songs like that to get me kind of like over the hump when you're passing out into your welding mask, uh as you're you know, building like large sculptures alone, which you should never do. Um you should always have someone with you in the shop when you're working. Uh but uh doing it to death is one of those songs that you know it's just it's just so tight and he beats on a rhythm so long, and it's just a kick king. And it's just like minutes of this boom jump.
+
+[50:49] And so, like, you know, I like that kind of song just keeps me going. And it's what's famous for, even though we never play it uh this section on the radio, it's famous for a section, it's song's in in F. And in the middle of the song, James Brown like says, Okay, we're gonna take it to D, down D, funky D, and then boom, D, bent, that they get the gang, they take it down to D, and it's just an amazing, like it's an amazing transition, and it's like all of other, you know, Jake great James Brown songs, is that he can take it to really high level and then change it and somehow that goes into an even higher level. I mean, like he's a he's a mirac was dead now. Miracle worker with bridges like that.
+
+[51:25] And so uh he was incredibly influential to me uh from a musical standpoint. And so I had to pick a James Brown song, and we chose doing it, doing it to death. And so you can uh you can find it, uh find it there, and uh maybe sometime next time we'll play the the down D, funky D, skankin' D, down D part, which is uh uh fantastic. By the way, it you know, I guess it doesn't mean you're a bad person if you don't like James Brown, right? No, I yeah, it's associated with no, but it it definitely means there is something wrong with your funk motor.
+
+[51:56] Uh the uh the intro song is uh a little known song by Amos Milburn called Vicious Vicious Vodka. Although I like fishes, fish is vodka quite a bit. Uh and Amos Milburn, who died in in uh 1980, uh became uh somewhat popular in Los Angeles uh after World War II. Um and he wrote a lot of songs about liquor. Uh and uh, you know, Vicious, Vicious Vodka is actually not one of his best known ones, but he had Bad Bad Whiskey is a great song.
+
+[52:24] Um but a lot of songs about uh drinking. His uh he also wrote a famous song called The Chicken Shack, and he was kind of a contemporary of uh other people like Louie Jordan or uh Charles Brown, who did some uh amazing work, you know, Louie Jordan, you might know from Beans and Cornbread, or actually not as famous, we're just picking food songs. But uh Amos Milburn, uh, his best known song is actually not best known by him, and it's one scotch, one bourbon, and one beer, which you probably know the uh John Lee Hooker version of, and not the Amos Milburn uh uh version of. So uh apparently he did not actually have an alcohol problem, although all of his songs were like he did another one. I think he did um Milk and Water, which is basically means I'm not drinking right now because I'm back on milk and water because the doctor says that my liver will fall out if I continue to drink.
+
+[53:09] So uh that is vicious vicious vodka, or in my head now forever, fish is fish is vodka. Uh uh come back next week and listen to us. Cooking issues. Oh, you dead rat. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
+
+[53:42] Supposed to meet my baby in 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted, and I guess can't get it straight. Fish is fishing vodka. Oh, you daddy rat. Got me on this corner.
+
+[54:10] And I don't know where I'm at. I had a chance to swap you for a little gym. Now, when my baby sees me, she's gonna bust my head. Use math to make the world a better place. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and find solutions to the world's most pressing challenges.
+
+[54:38] As an actuary, the only thing higher than the pay is the satisfaction.
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+[0:00] The following episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by TechServe. This January, responsibly dispose of your old electronics at one of ten e-waste recycling events held across four boroughs of New York City, hosted by TechServe and the Lower East Side Ecology Center. Computers, printers, monitors, and lots of other electronics are being accepted for safe and proper recycling. Visit www.techserve.com slash recycling for more information and drop off location details. Hello and welcome to a late starting cooking issues.
+
+[0:44] I apologize to all the cooking issues listeners for being so late. I was stopped by the New York City subway system today, which decided it would take more than an hour to take me from my house in Manhattan to uh Bushwick here at Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, which uh should only be a half hour ride. Uh I could have run about twice as fast, Nastasha. What do you think? And then uh to top it off, uh what made it even more fun was as I was running from the subway station to the pizzeria, I uh nearly stepped in an eviscerated pigeon.
+
+[1:13] Oh, I saw that. Oh yeah. Yeah. And there's a dog outside the pizzeria tied up uh on a leash so long, uh, and it hated me so much because I was running. I guess it thought I was frightened, that I had to literally jump out of the way of its lunging teeth as it was flying towards my jugular.
+
+[1:30] Awesome. Uh so uh an inauspicious start to our show. Uh it's gonna have to be slightly abbreviated because we do have a show coming in at one. Uh call in all your questions too. What's the number, Stuff?
+
+[1:40] 718 497-2128. Am I right, Jack? That's 718. What is it? 497-2128.
+
+[1:48] So call in all your questions, but make it snappy because uh unfortunately we're gonna have an abbreviated cooking issues uh this week. Okay, so our first question comes in uh anonymously via tweet deck, whatever tweet deck is. Uh and uh here she says, uh cooking issues has embraced the equipment of the stoner in various ways, from the spice grinder to the smoking gun, etc. So maybe it's time for a fair trade back. I know it might be a touchy subject on air, but uh I thought I'd try for some insight.
+
+[2:14] Uh after having surgery a year ago, I can no longer partake in the smoking of anything. I guess presumably marijuana is what is going to be asked about, but I occasionally bake cook with with it, meaning marijuana. If people who write about uh marijuana are so cagey with what they're talking about, well uh and since I don't actually smoke it or bake with it or do anything with it, I have no problem talking about it. We're talking about marijuana here. Um anyway, uh okay.
+
+[2:40] So uh I occasionally bake cook with it as a substitute to smoking. Uh Google hasn't provided any answers as to what temperature THC, that's uh what's that, tetra, tetrahydrocannabinol, right? Someone uh is extracted into fat. And uh while the double uh boiler method is fine, this means putting your marijuana finely ground into butter in a double boiler and cooking it. Uh I have an immersion circulator who was curious as to uh which temperature I could utilize the low temperature of the immersion circulator to more effectively and with less attention, uh, replace a double boiler with low temp method.
+
+[3:10] Well, um I don't think there's a specific temperature. I did some research yesterday. There's not a specific temperature at which THC is extracted, just increasing the temperature, increase the extraction rate of THC. There are some people who say that uh storing uh high temperature for too long can degrade some uh of the THC, but then I have uh some other sources that say uh cooking your oil at a at a higher much higher temperature, actually, can take uh uh s some some types of uh pot and uh actually increase their potency, presumably by taking um uh uh t THC that's has a carboxyl group on it, an acid, uh decarboxylating it, and then uh converting it into THC. But uh I don't I don't know about that.
+
+[3:44] I would say that you're gonna be uh really good if you use a vacuum bag, so treat this like a cooking problem, right? Uh if you use a vacuum bag, you're gonna get the fat more um injected into the um into the leaf, and so I would assume you get a faster, better, more complete uh extraction. Um I haven't really done any experiments on this, but I I encourage anyone else to to write in. I spent about an hour, an hour and a half looking for it, but I also didn't get anything uh specific. I would just set your circulator to like 85 C with a bag.
+
+[4:19] Make sure you squeeze the bag a bunch to get agitation. Agitation seems important. And uh let us know how it works, uh, Mr. or Mrs. Tweet Deck.
+
+[4:26] Uh, we have a caller? Yes. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Howdy.
+
+[4:32] Quick question. Um over Christmas break, my mom made uh scalloped potatoes, and she's had mixed results before with um graying of the potatoes. Um she's using not reactive uh cookware, uh corning wear. Right. I mean, is this a does need to put the potato slices in acidulated water first, or what's going on there?
+
+[4:50] Uh yeah, so uh when you say graying, you mean um kind of the color that you get when potatoes are leaving out, kind of a bluish gray, blackish blue. Bluish gray, almost, I mean, not quite black, but getting, yeah, just looking a little, you know. It tasted fine, but it just looked a little scary. Yeah, I think your analysis is pretty much right on here. I think what's happening is is the uh the heat isn't getting to them fast enough to um cook them before uh the enzymes in them have a chance to start uh working on them and and turning them brown.
+
+[5:19] I've never tried, um, although I don't know why I feel silly saying this, but I've never tried doing something like uh ascorbic acid as an attempt to prevent uh that sort of enzymatic browning because usually my technique is to just keep them submerged in water until I'm ready until I'm ready to cook. But that's not really an option in the gratin. I mean is it is it in a really slow oven? It's it's not a convection oven. It's a conventional, yeah.
+
+[5:42] That might have something to do with it. You know, I think it's also uh quite interesting that you say that it's in uh corning because a corning is going to obviously transmit the heat to the potatoes slower uh th then uh you know i if it goes in cold now it'll trans it'll transmit it like a champ if you preheat it but then it becomes a pain to layer the gratin into the dish uh when you're going um you know be if you minimize exposure to oxygen make sure that all the uh all the potato pieces are coated in kind of uh in in you know the sauce or whatever before you go that might not be an option with the recipe you're using. I mean you could try a little ascorbic acid. I'd be curious whether or not it works. Obviously a pre-blanch would work but then that's kind of a hassle to have to pre-blanch your potato slices before you do it.
+
+[6:24] Um you know but I would just make sure that before you assemble that the that the the chips are stored under water for as long a period or you know or use as quickly as possible because that's also gonna save you some some browning. Um I don't know what do you think any of these are the actual culprit or what? I I your guess is as good as mine, yeah. Um I think yeah I think in the future I'll I'll advise you to just try the uh the acid water I guess. Yeah but I wouldn't I mean the problem is you don't want the thing to taste like lemons.
+
+[6:54] I would get ascorbic acid which is vitamin C. Okay. Or you can get um i if you uh uh you know, go to a natural food store, not a natural food store, but a place that deals with dehydrators. Um they make uh sodium metabisulfite, which is uh some people use as as the you know as a uh antioxidant as well. But I wouldn't use lemon juice because I think it's really gonna kinda mar the flavor of what you're looking for.
+
+[7:14] And even ascorbic ascorbic acid, you know, has some flavor, but just not very much, and you would need a relatively small amount of it. Because remember, you you only need it to last until it gets hot enough to kill the enzymes anyway, and then you're good to go. Yeah. All right. All right, and so try a faster pan, try preheating the pyrex, try using ascorbic acid, but let us let us know what happens, see whether or not uh any of our guesses were uh on the money, all right?
+
+[7:37] Awesome, Dave. I'll keep you updated. All right, cool. Um now uh we have a question uh that comes in from Tucker saying on yesterday's radio show oh yesterday, well, last week's radio show, Dave mentioned a modification to a soda stream to deal with foaming when carbonating things other than water. I got one because my girlfriend goes through a liter of soda water a day, only a liter.
+
+[7:56] Only wimpy. Come on, get your girlfriend to start drinking liquids. Christ's sakes. Uh I tried carbonating a couple of white wines, which foam too much to get very carbonated. What would the modification to the soda stream be to solve this problem?
+
+[8:08] Okay, first of all, you're gonna uh in order to make a white wine taste as carbonated as water, you're gonna need to actually put more bubbles into it because uh uh wine, anything with alcohol in it tends to absorb more uh CO2 for the same level of sensation on your tongue, right? Which means that you're gonna have to have the wine to be very cold. So the the first trick you're gonna have to do is not try to um decarbonate white wine when it's right out of the uh, you know, just out of the fridge, because that's probably not gonna be cold enough. I would get it ice cold. Ice cold, okay?
+
+[8:41] Ice cold. And then uh I would put it into uh the soda screen machine. It it is gonna foam. Anything that has kind of surface active properties like that is gonna foam a lot more than um your typical than water. Water is the only thing that we really carbonate a lot that doesn't foam at all.
+
+[8:56] So here's what I would do. There's a in for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about, soda stream. You can go, you can buy them at uh like a Whole Foods, you can buy them at a bunch of different places, and they they use kind of an intermediate size uh CO2 canister and allow you to carbonate I don't know, several gallons with one with one canister and then you recycle the canister and get a new one, and you only have to carry the CO2 bottle around because you produce the water at your house. There's not a lot of plastic waste, etc. etc.
+
+[9:23] Okay. So uh in the soda stream that you're supposed to fill the bottle, I think like two-thirds or a little more up, and a little tube goes into the bottle, and that's what actually carbonates. It's like a little like almost looks like a cappuccino frothing thing that comes down. Now, the problem is is that if you actually fill up your bottle with wine to the level that that tube touches, it's gonna foam, and there's really nothing you can do about that. It's gonna foam a lot.
+
+[9:45] So, what I would do is put a tube over that, right? So get get a piece of rubber tubing uh and then just slip it over that to extend the length of the CO2 uh wand down closer to the bottom of your container. You're gonna have to jimmy it around to get the container onto it with that longer tube, but that's gonna allow you to carbonate with a much smaller volume of liquid, right? Now, so now you have your super ice-cold white wine, you uh have your tube extender on your soda stream, plug it in, hit it a couple times. Now remember, this is all theoretical because I don't own a soda stream.
+
+[10:15] Uh, hit it a couple times with CO2, but don't carbonate it as much as you think. Now, now, purposely, purposely foam off that wine, right? Now you're gonna be bubbling all the stuff out, you're gonna be getting rid of any uh trapped air that's in the wine from the pouring, and in that kind of trapped air is gonna cause a lot of foaming and bubbling. And so if you do that once or twice with a small amount of CO2, you're gonna get rid of some of the crud that's in there that's causing the foaming, and you're gonna get a better carbonated product all the way around. Then hit it with your maximum amount of CO2.
+
+[10:44] I would pick up the unit a little bit and shake it a little bit to get the the CO2 in. Then let it settle out completely, completely before you uh vent and allow it to open it. Because I think this I've never, again, this is all theoretical. I think the soda stream lets you pressurize and then vent separately, but I'm not sure. But this technique should work.
+
+[11:05] Even if it does not, this technique should work. The main thing you use is foaming is not your enemy. You just have to uh account for it, which means you have to use a smaller volume and you have to get the CO2 down into that smaller volume, and that you should definitely carbonate more than one time. The only time we carbonate once is with water. Everything else we carbonate, and even water sometimes a couple times.
+
+[11:25] We carbonate two, three, four times to make sure that we've gotten rid of all of the nucleation sites and that uh we get a good product. And um, you know, just empirically from the years and years that we've you know I've been carbonating, this proves to be a uh technique that works, and I'm assuming you can get it to work with the soda stream. We can jimmy almost anything to work. Um what do you think? Absolutely.
+
+[11:46] Yeah, all right. Okay, so uh let's rip through this because we're we're on short time. So I I think we're gonna be commercial. Oh, by the way, uh Tucker, who sent us that enjoyed our country ham post. Nice.
+
+[11:57] Nice. Thank you very much. Uh okay. Um Marty from Eagle Rock, California says, San Gabriel Valley represent. Is that where you're from?
+
+[12:05] I yeah, yeah. Yeah. Eagle Rock is a place that has a rock that looks like an eagle. For real? Yes.
+
+[12:11] Oh, all right. Like a like uh like an eagle with its wings out or like a big dead eagle? Like a big head, an eagle's head. Yeah. Specifically an eagle's head.
+
+[12:19] Yeah. Hmm, okay. Okay. I read on the site that you can use the ISI infusion technique on uh to make flavored oils. Have you ever tried cacao or coffee infused oils?
+
+[12:28] I have not. Uh I have not. That's uh an interesting question. Um I know people obviously we've we've done a lot with uh cacao and uh alcohol because I do most of my stuff with alcohol in the ISI. Um and uh I know people that have done coffee coffee bitters.
+
+[12:46] Don Lee is working on a coffee bitters. Um so the the short answer, no. Uh I I haven't. The um uh I would I would just try it and and and tell us tell us what happens. I mean, there's no reason why it shouldn't work.
+
+[13:02] The main thing we've done with it is lemon peels, uh and we may made our own lemon uh oils and um other things like that, citrus. Uh the m the for those you don't know what the heck I'm talking about, ISI infusion is where you put uh you take an ISI cream whipper, you put in um uh you we use liquor, but you can put in water based foods or uh uh oils, you put in something porous, you pressurize it with nitrous. When you pressurize it with nitrous, it forces the fat or liquid into your porous product. You shake the the heck out of it to get it to infuse in, then you rapidly vent it and all the flavor gets boiled out uh and you have a delicious infused product. Um remember though, when you do oils, you're gonna want to use a lot more product.
+
+[13:41] It doesn't suck up the flavor as readily as alcohol. Although, you know, this might be an interesting way to suck some of the flavor out of the marijuana, going back to our marijuana post. Maybe I'm not uh I'm not advocating this. I'm not advocating this, but someone might want to try uh uh ISI in conjunction with uh with a water bath. Put you know, put the ISI into a water bath um and see whether or not you can extract uh herbal oil essences, let's say.
+
+[14:05] Yeah? Don't be cagey. Uh yeah, marijuana. I'm talking about marijuana. I can say that because I don't really care.
+
+[14:10] Um now Marty also wants to make a uh Telegio uh cheese whiz, which sounds like a good idea. Um I didn't uh unfortunately I was gonna talk to my uh cheese whiz expert, which is uh Wiley Dufresne, whose favorite favorite food isn't really cheese whiz, it's eggs and but he loves American cheese. Right. And so the trick with the cheese whiz is getting the the texture just right. Now I've you I've made many uh cheese sauces, including some that could be gunned, um, but I've noticed um you know that unless you unless you get it just right, sometimes it can go grainy.
+
+[14:41] I don't think it's gonna be a problem with the telegio, the telegraph you're just gonna want to stop from breaking. But I hesitate to give you a recipe now. I'm gonna have Nastasha remind me that when I talk to Wiley, I'm gonna see what he thinks the best kind of telegio spray cheese would be. It uh my son's actually fascinated with not with cheese whiz, but the actual pressurized, because he wants to Marty wants to do this in his ISI. Uh who else has a recipe for that out there?
+
+[15:03] I think uh is it Bayless? Someone like no no. Who has a re someone has a recipe out there? Anyway, we'll we'll find one for you. And the my son though is obsessed with the easy cheese.
+
+[15:13] Easy cheese is like you know, the spray cheese that comes in, but it sprays out really slowly, and that used to be my car food of choice. I used to drive 24 hours straight from uh New York or or Connecticut down to Florida to visit my grandparents with friends, and we would just pack the car with uh Diet Mountain Dew, easy cheese pretzels, and prunes, and that combination of like like like it somehow leveled us out and got us uh to Florida without crashing uh crashing and dying. So, yeah, good good memories, easy cheese. Anyway, uh we'll look that up. Okay.
+
+[15:41] Okay. Uh now, um did you find uh oh, here's the one we didn't talk about last week, the one I flubbed last week. Uh Howard from Montreal asked us whether or not we thought that potassium chloride, which is used in a 50 50 ratio with sodium chloride as a salt replacer, would be uh a good um replacement for salt in brines. Uh and so and for some reason last week my brain was completely fried. I don't know why my brain's working any better this week with the transportation problems I've had.
+
+[16:09] But um he uh I think he's pretty much right. I think that in most situations uh potassium chloride mixed with sodium chloride would uh provide a lot of the same uh functionality as just straight sodium chloride in a brine scenario. Uh possibly in a uh in a bread scenario. I don't know how specific the reactions are to sodium versus uh you know, uh sodium as a particular ion versus uh potassium as a particular ion, or whether it's just ionic strength that's doing the doing the the business. I know that most of the time when we're brining, even when we use things other than table salt, we do use sodium uh based things like the sodium polyphosphates that are used to plump up hams uh and things like that.
+
+[16:47] Uh one thing I would caution against is that potassium chloride tastes nasty to me. It's got like a metallic bitter taste. I find it nasty. I just don't like it. Um I really don't like it.
+
+[16:59] Um magnesium chloride um I like a lot better because it's sweeter. Uh as uh Howard points out though, magnesium might not have the same effects because it's a divalent cation, so you'd have to add uh more of it because it's got uh all the extra chloride in there. Uh Nastasia's not a huge fan of the magnesium chloride. No. No?
+
+[17:18] No. No? No. Yeah. We m we did a test where we made a bunch of different uh uh fake bottled waters by using uh a filtered water and then adding our own salts to it.
+
+[17:28] And I actually like the magnesium chloride water, although it really tasted nasty after we carbonated it. Am I right? Mm-hmm. I mean, like, yeah, I mean pretty nasty, but it did have a sweet taste by itself. Um but this brings me to uh my next point, which is uh salt in general.
+
+[17:41] Now uh I don't remember whether How Howard's uh I believe it was who is it that couldn't his mom, I guess, couldn't have uh straight salt. Uh but Ken Kirshenbaum from the Experimental Cuisine Collective, professor of polymer chemistry at uh at uh uh uh NYU, friend of mine, friend of the blogs. Uh we were having discussion because a friend of his actually uh uh shot a beaver or trapped a beaver and then you know shot it to to kill it. Uh legally, by the way, completely legally. The guy's like a game blah blah straight state trooper upstate.
+
+[18:12] Uh and he brought brought me the tail. So we're gonna cook it for him. I'm gonna invite Ken over and we're gonna have some beaver tail. Flapper and tail, by the way. Not just tail, not just flapper, flapper plus tail.
+
+[18:20] Anyway, uh so uh we were having this discussion, and Kent, as a scientist, uh he and I get into uh discussions a lot about how crappy most science is, specifically food science, but uh but even more specifically uh nutrition-based science that tries to make claims about things. And one of the one of the problems he has now, uh, and we're trying to figure out is is there's a huge kind of uh war on salt right now, right? I mean Nastash and I uh well it's a long stupid story. Yeah, but we were out of California, this guy was like, hey, this was uh this is in May. He was like, hey, I hear that they they're outlawed using salt in.
+
+[18:55] In all of New York City. All in New York. I was like, no, that's not true. And he's like, yeah, they outlawed it. I was like, I was just there.
+
+[19:01] He's like, no, no, no, they outlawed it. I was like, I work in a cooking school, I'm pretty sure I would kind of know, you know, and I'm up on this anyway. Uh but it is true that people are trying to limit the the the use of salt. Uh major corporations, including some that uh we've worked with, uh, you know, have come out with a lot of um products that where they're trying to reduce the salt because salt is seen as this kind of evil additive that people are adding to processed foods. Uh I don't know to get us a I don't know, I don't know what the the gripe is.
+
+[19:27] Here's the thing, right? Is that uh the data is awful. The data sucks, right? There is no data showing that the majority of us need to curtail our salt intake, right? I mean, we all forget that before uh you know, refrigeration, right, we consumed a buttload of salt, right?
+
+[19:46] Because everything we had was preserved in some form of drying or drying and salting, or drying and salting and smoking, but it was a lot of salt. Our great grandpappies and grandmammies had much more salt in their diet, I would guess, than us just because we happen to eat a lot of easy cheese. Now I'm not advocating going out and buying easy cheese, and I'm not advocating on going on salt overload, but what are the ramifications, right, to saying that we have to reduce all of uh salt and everything? I'll tell you what they are, right? Because it's not it's not that you're gonna suddenly go out and eat less processed food.
+
+[20:19] I mean, maybe listeners for our blog are because they're pretty hardcore people, right? But the real ramifications are that instead of reducing uh salt or making it less processed, what they're gonna do is they're gonna try and keep palatability the same, and they're gonna do it by ramping up umami. So if you taste a lot of these, um if you taste a lot of these uh these you know products that have reduced sodium, right, they have natural versions of free glutamic acid and whether or not they're the sodium variant, which they won't be because they're trying to reduce sodium. It's the sodium, not the salt, right, that people are worried about. Uh but they're gonna be ramping up things like potassium uh, you know, uh monopotassium glutamate uh or natural forms of this so they can say that they have a lower sodium content.
+
+[20:57] And the upshot is all of these products taste like dashi, right? They all have a brothy, dashy sameness, like uh uh uh because we're not used to those flavors being in those products. So, you know, you don't the the problem with MSG isn't that it's bad. I don't believe it gives you a headache. The all the best studies are that if and Nastasha thinks it gives her a headache, by the way.
+
+[21:14] That's that's crap. I'm just saying. It's crap. Anyway, uh we'll do a double blind study. But my point is is that uh is that um you you know everything in the world shouldn't taste like it has a lot of whether or not it's natural, whether or not it's got the sodium, whether or not it causes a problem, not everything in the world is meant to taste like it's doped up on on MSG.
+
+[21:43] It's not supposed to taste like dashi, it's not supposed to taste brothy or or mushroom y or parmesani or or tomato y. Do you know what I mean? And so I think the the upshot is is that in order to increase passability palatability, we're gonna get to an even uh greater level of homogeneity and taste. And I think this is a a huge problem. Now, that's just from a taste standpoint.
+
+[22:02] From a science standpoint, um, you know, I was reading an article and uh you know, and it cited uh another article that was really, really crappy on uh that salt is like the biggest killer uh today. And the article basically said, well, uh heart disease kills everyone, a lot of people, uh, and uh salt is a big cause of heart disease, and therefore salt causes most this is all this is all horse hockey. Like the truth is is that majority of us can eat as much salt within reason as we want and not uh not have hypertension as a result. Now, uh this is my feeling. Now we're I'm like I'm basically here.
+
+[22:42] I want people to call in on me and say that I'm full of it, right? I won't but I want to see if we can form our own kind of war path, pro salt war path. Salt, salt, salt, love it, right? Not because I need to make it force food that's bad down people's throat, but because salt is the universal delicious maker, right? Salt will make everything taste better.
+
+[22:59] We all need salt. Like our civilization is built on salt. Like we are a salt loving group of folk. And I think that there's no reason for us to um to stop just because some nincompoops say that we are uh, you know, that that all of a sudden we're all gonna get hypertension as a result of our salt intake. And I definitely don't think that they should make processed foods even worse than they are now by making them all taste like dashi broth.
+
+[23:33] Not that dashi bra is not delicious, and in fact, I have a post in draft mode, it's gonna go up later today on kambudashi. I swear to swear, I swear to God, it's going up today. Yeah, it's it's in draft mode. So it's gonna be we are extremely pro uh kombu dashi. Um, but um, but I just don't think that my pasta should necessarily taste like kombutachi.
+
+[23:51] Now, uh one last what was the name of the way. Well one last thing. It's my it's my it's my outro. Okay, Ken. Uh Ken.
+
+[23:57] So Ken, who wrote in about the Aero Press uh coffee machine, uh told us to read an article last week. I didn't get time to read it until last night. And it's called The Truth Wears Off by uh Joan Alaire and the New Yorker, and it's a very interesting article on uh the fact that scientific research tends to be um that pe people like have these great results that tend to turn to crap over time. The more the studies are replicated, the more you find that uh the results are are crap. Now, this is uh you know dovetails into what we were talking about before is that a lot of people report things by data mining.
+
+[24:29] They data mine things and then they figure out that, well, uh, you know, XY or Z nutritional thing is great, or XYZ food is bad. But uh uh I'm gonna t and everyone should read the article. It's very you know, great article, important article, uh, as was pointed out to us, but uh, I want to f focus it more on cooking. And the same thing happens to us with cooking. I find that um we all rush to and I'm you know probably guilty of this more than anyone else because we write a blog that's supposed to have some new new results to it.
+
+[24:55] But I think we all need to uh be careful when um when we're cooking to make sure that we are actually doing what we think we're doing. That we actually um we pay attention to uh what tries to make a food better, what tries to make a food worse. Um that we don't give explanations right away, that we try to uh disprove what we're working on rather than prove what we're working on, because I think that's gonna make us think more like scientists in the kitchen, and I think sinking thinking like a scientist in the kitchen is gonna make you a better cook. Uh sorry for the late start, and this has been cooking issues coming back to you on time next week.
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+[0:00] When you open the bottle and you drink the wine, it speaks for itself. Is it, you know, a wine that's made for food? Yes. Those types of wines are tend to be more rustic or have a little bit more body. Are there wines that are just pure out hedonistic pleasure?
+
+[0:14] Sure. There's wines like that that maybe from California that are more cocktail wines or wines that are just big jammy fruit bombs. And those I think appeal to certain group of people as well. I think the wines that Barber House specializes in is more of these food-friendly, you know, rustic style, um, biodynamic, organic wines that tend to be a bit more earthy, come from someplace. So you can almost taste the terroir.
+
+[0:38] You can almost feel this guy, this sense era was grown in this slatey rocky soil. And so to me, that's the exciting part that the wine feels like it comes from someplace. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday. Uh it's another rainy, slushy day here in Brooklyn. I'm in the studio at Roberta's Pizzeria with Nastasha De Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:13] We're here to answer all of your cooking related questions, technical and not. So if you can, please give us a holler at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, so uh we really we uh we had a question that I forgot to answer last time, so I might as well uh might as well get into it. It's it's about gelatin.
+
+[1:34] And the question is uh basically, well, what what the heck? What's what's what's the difference between all the different gelatins there are? Uh what's the difference between fish gelatin and uh you know animal based regular, you know, I guess red, you know, meat, regular meat-based animal gelatin. Uh what's the difference between the different grades, the bronze, the the gold, the silver, and the platinum. Well, here's the deal.
+
+[1:56] So uh gelatins in the industry are rated on something called bloom strength. And uh bloom strength has nothing to do with uh you know a flower blooming or even the fact that uh gelatin, you know, uh swells up when you put it in water. It has to do with a dude named Bloom, who uh in the early 20th centuries came up with a technique for measuring the strength of gels and uh gelatin gels. And it's it's uh really dumb, simple technique. You just take a uh uh a you know a plunger of a particular size and you push it into the surface of uh gelatin that's being cured uh very accurately.
+
+[2:29] I'll I'll I'll give you the exact numbers in case you want to run your own bloom tests. It's a 6.67% gelatin solution that is tempered for 17 to 18 hours at 10 degrees Celsius, and they measure uh how much weight in grams it takes to uh push a uh half inch diameter plunger four millimeters into the surface of the of the gelatin. Why why would they specify part of it in inches and part of it in millimeters? Who knows? Makes no dang sense, right?
+
+[2:55] No sense. And it it's really a s you know, a simple little thing. And most most industrial, by the way, old school industrial measurements like this are quite quite simple. Like they used it, they and they still measure viscosity of a lot of things by literally like building a trough with a ruler in it, dumping some crap into it and seeing how far that stuff runs along the trough before it stops. I mean, this is the kind of this is the kind of like bonehead test, but it makes everything standardized because they need to be able to standardize gelatin for various different uh applications.
+
+[3:23] So uh gelatins come in a in a wide range then, in sheet gelatin, bronze gelatin, uh the the bronze grade is gonna be about 125 to 155 uh bloom. So it's fairly soft, right? Whereas silver is this is from an eagle thread, by the way, so you know, I shouldn't take it without saying it's it from an eagle thread. Uh s silver gelatin is about 160. Uh gold is at like 190 to 220, and platinum is 235 to 265.
+
+[3:44] So that's the highest uh bloom strength. I would bet most of us use something in the uh in the gold in the gold range, right? Now, uh bloom strength, interestingly, uh, has nothing necessarily to do with how the gel is going to perform in a particular application, like for instance, gelatin clarification. It's just a measure of how strong a particular gel concentration is as a gel. It doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna make better marshmallows, because gelatin isn't just used as a gelling agent, it's used as a whipping agent, it's used uh as an emulsifier because it's made of proteins.
+
+[4:20] The way gelatin is made is you take any any form of uh of collagen, connective tissue, all of our connective tissue, most of it, is uh collagen, right? And collagen is a triple helix uh in each one of those uh of proteins, and each one of those helixes, when it's uh denatured properly, turns into gelatin. That's how braised uh products work, right? Uh, you know, you braze until the collagen breaks down and turns into gelatin, which makes the texture delicious and whatnot and whatnot. So animal-based uh uh gelatins come, well, you would guess from animals.
+
+[4:47] A lot of it is from skin, like pig skin, or from bones. When they're doing bones, they they take and they wash the bones in acid for a long time to leach out all the calcium. It leaves a spongy, nasty bone mass, which they then wash uh dry, well neutralize, dry, grind up, and then they they they then uh or the skins or anything else, they take then that raw material, and they usually treat it either with an acid or with with a base, and they get there's two different kinds of gelatin depending on whether they do that. And that uh further kind of um breaks the cross links between this triple helix of proteins, right? Makes it easier for them to extract the gelatin, and then they they uh take and they they heat it in hot water and they extract uh like three, four or five times different gels of different qualities.
+
+[5:28] The first water is the highest strength, uh highest quality gel. And the farther down the extraction line you are, the kind of the crappier your your gel is. But that's how they get uh all the gel out and how they get gels of various different strengths. Um part of the question was uh what's the difference between the powder gel and a sheet gel? And the answer is nothing going into it, right?
+
+[5:46] A sheet gel is uh you take the gel the gelatin solution that you you get out of you know your processed product and you dehydrate it and you spread it into a sheet and let it dry and cut it and put it in a box. Whereas powder gelatin, they extrude into noodles, those noodles are dried out and then uh pulverized in a mill, and then that's the subsequent gel powder. But there's no inherent difference between powder gel, uh powder gelatin and um and uh and sheet gelatin. Now, there is a major difference between fish gelatins and uh like you know, pig or or uh or cow gelatin. There's a you're probably not gonna run into poultry gelatin unless you you know process your own, or you're you're doing like some sort of a uh you know uh chicken skin soup and you you get the gelatin out of it.
+
+[6:28] But um, but pig and and mammal skin gelatins uh are uh pig and sorry, cow uh gelatins are uh fairly you know high strength. This is the one we're we're normally used to using. Fish gelatins can come from one of two sources. Cold water fish make a really crappy gelatin, it barely gels at all. Uh really just it's crap.
+
+[6:46] I mean, it really is horrible. Uh, they're working on it, Nastasha. Did you know that? No. They they're working on it because there are people who would like to have a fish-based gelatin that works.
+
+[6:55] Now, uh, and it has to do with the amino acid makeup of uh of the of the proteins of the connective tissue in in the cold water fish. It's just they suck. What do you want? You know what I mean? Warm water fish, on the other hand, can make uh gel strength that is uh okay, but the problem is is that fish gelatin tends to melt at a lower temperature.
+
+[7:14] So, you know, it it's a lot harder to work with uh a fish-based gelatin and to get a good result. I've you know, I tend to not use it. I I can I kind of uh stay away from it. We tend to use uh sheet gelatin uh for some applications and powdered gelatin for other applications, and uh it's just a matter of which box comes into my hand first, frankly. But uh you shouldn't switch uh bloom strengths uh, you know, or basically the strengths of your gels between different recipes because your results may differ.
+
+[7:41] How's that? That was good. Too much of the right amount? The right amount. The right amount, thank you.
+
+[7:46] You know, it's always nice to have uh at least one booster in your corner. So uh now uh read loyal readers of the blog, uh, if we have any left, because we've only put like we put up like one post every eight years at this point. We're gonna we're gonna get better. We have some cool stuff coming, like the centerfuge video I promised you, uh and a bunch of other uh stuff. But uh I'll give you an idea of stuff we've been working on.
+
+[8:06] Um about a year ago, I think. A year? No, less than that. Are you talking about the first thing? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:12] No, eight months, nine months. All right, so Cornell University has this project called Fab at home. And basically it's a three-dimensional uh printer, uh, and they gave us one a while back, and it's to basically they want us to print food with uh with this 3D printer. Now, uh, you know, what is it really? It's a syringe.
+
+[8:29] So that the basically it's a syringe that you fill with paste, any kind of paste, like uh, I don't know, gel paste, goop, meat paste, goop. I mean, it's basically that the the main criteria is that you get a pasty goop, right? Uh but they they they have a new one. Apparently we can now extrude pasta doughs and and masa, which we're gonna work on today, which sounds interesting because cookies. Cookies, they can do cookies.
+
+[8:51] Um so here's the thing, right? Uh it's basically a three-dimensional, it's basically it just very accurately controls the X, Y, and Z axis. It's hooked into a computer, and they accurately control how fast the goop is sprayed out of the syringe. And they have multiple syringes, so you can use different materials. Yada yada yah.
+
+[9:09] Fantastic, right? Now, uh they want us to print food with it. Now, here's the here's the main deal. And CNN, by the way, some money show. Do you know what it's called?
+
+[9:18] CNN Money. Well, that's easy. CNN Money. They're coming to the school today, and uh our buddy, you know, uh Senor Lipton from uh from uh Cornell is here, and we're gonna shoot this thing with it with the television people today. But they have the classic kind of what I think that CNN does, awful idea.
+
+[9:37] I mean horrible, horrible idea that someday you are gonna go home, push a button, and your meal is gonna be printed for you. God, I hope not. You know what I mean? It's just it's just a terrible, terrible idea. And and so, and when I say this to people, they're like, Yeah, but but that's just because the technology's not right.
+
+[9:55] I'm like, no, this is a conceptually horrible idea that we would that we would like grind all of our raw ingredients into uh a Pablum like paste and extrude them into various different shapes and call that a meal goes against basically everything I think is is good about the world. Well, you know, yeah, yeah. But they didn't seem to they weren't listening when I was saying that, right? They that kind of went over their head. Yeah.
+
+[10:21] The whole like I think it's evil. Yes, yeah. So right. Now, there are some fantastic applications for the 3D printer. Uh not my applications, but you know, good applications.
+
+[10:32] For instance, you have a kid's birthday. This thing is like the the wizard icing printing machine of all time. This thing can uh print a three-dimensional uh El Santo wrestling uh like you know, a Martian on top of a cupcake, like without breaking a sweat, right? So for things like kids' birthday parties, where you want to print out, you know, uh one you know cake with the kid's face on it, and then or maybe the kid's face with a dog trying to bite his face off, something like that. Anything like that, anything you've got a model of, you can you can print out onto a cupcake because icing is a straight up awesome paste printing material, right?
+
+[11:08] It's also great if you know if you want to make things out of epoxy or your kids want to make things out of silicone rubber, that's great. We're talking food only, right? Yeah. So icing is great. You can print cookies in the shape of uh, I don't know, like space shuttles, donkeys, whatever.
+
+[11:22] You know what I mean? You could you can print whatever great, great application. Not my application. For me, the you know, I'm obviously not interested in the application that I think is uh, you know, uh one of the roots of all evil thinking in uh the future of food, that we're all gonna live like the Jetsons uh, you know, and have our food in pill form. I mean, that's uh, you know, uh it's God help us if that happens.
+
+[11:43] But uh, you know, I'm waiting for the the killer application where we actually produce a new and delicious food with this printer that uh can't be made any other way. And that's basically why you haven't seen uh a lot of work uh from us out of it because we haven't come up with that killer application. But they you know, there is this new uh technique that we're hopefully gonna try out today where you basically you can print um what looks like uh um you know those like uh how do you describe these, Nastasha? Like you know the squidgy mats that you walk on that are made out of like plastic loopy doodles? Or those flip flops.
+
+[12:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the squidgy doodle flip-flops. What's the name of the company? Sanook S-A-N-U-K. Yeah, you know, Nastasha knows everything about flip-flops, and I don't because I find them a horror.
+
+[12:27] Like the idea of my heels slipping around and cooking. Yeah, anyway. I hate flip-flops. If any of you, no offense if you own a flip-flop corporation, but you know, uh, you'd sooner see me dead than in a pair of flip-flops. That's just it.
+
+[12:40] You know what I mean? Like, I hate them. I hate everything about them, the noise when they're wet. I mean, everything awful. Like something between my toes.
+
+[12:47] Horrible. Anyway, um, so uh how'd we get on? Oh, yeah. So the material is like that like squidgy material and flip-flops, but he can print it out of any kind of food. So uh we're gonna take MASA dough, which is nictimalized corn, uh, ground into a fine paste.
+
+[13:01] We're gonna try to print this uh basically spongy matte like surface out of the masa and then fry it to get kind of a new snack chip texture. That's gonna be cool, right? Mm-hmm. We're also gonna try to print out some extruded uh some some snacks that uh you know that that can be that be puffed later. I mean the other main problem with with this 3D printing is it's inherently a prototype application, right?
+
+[13:23] So, yes, I can make one space shuttle out of scallop paste, which is what we did the last time we printed something out. But if I really wanted to make space shuttle-shaped scallop uh paste nuggets, right, I would uh make a silicone mold that had like 20 or 30 space shuttles in it, and then I would just, you know, strike mold everything out with an offset spatula and call it call it a day. You know, that I wouldn't I wouldn't bother printing each one because that's a that's a nightmare. So, you know, these are the basic problems with a 3D printer. But if you have any ideas, please call them in ASAP because we're gonna talk to the CNN people today, and there's nothing I'd like more than to say one of our listeners or readers just came up with the killer app.
+
+[14:02] Alright. Alright, let's take a break. Come back, call in all your questions too. 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128 cooking issues.
+
+[14:10] How you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? So much bone brother. How do you feel, mate?
+
+[14:17] I'll feel all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down. Look at him.
+
+[14:29] We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We gotta take you high.
+
+[14:55] Alright. Yeah, let's go on. We gotta take you high. Now I want everybody. Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[15:13] Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you live from Brooklyn. Alright, so uh I think we should talk about another project we're working on, not strictly cooking uh related, but generally food related, and that's the uh the food museum. As uh some of you might know, uh the project that I was involved in before I uh joined the French culinary team was to try and start a food museum.
+
+[15:39] And this isn't necessarily a place where well, it isn't a place where you just go look at shellacked pieces of bread and muse over how awesome the food of the past was. I mean, I I this is gonna be a place where you go and you uh you eat, you taste, uh, you learn, you see, you touch. Because I really find that uh not that you shouldn't listen to food radio, uh, but I find that like you know, really if you want to learn about food, you really you have to eat it, you have to see it, you have to touch it, you have to smell it. I mean, that's the that's what food is, you know. I mean, I love reading, uh, you know, I love listening, you know, to ideas, but really, you know, you gotta get out there and taste.
+
+[16:12] Uh that's what you know, Jeffrey Steingart has that, that's one of his big gripes uh about you know, people uh you know who are in the food business, is they want to be in the food business, they want to write about it, but they simply haven't eaten enough. So his whenever you if you any of you out there are ever gonna approach Jeffrey Steingarden, the uh food writer at Vogue, you know, uh fr friend of ours, uh if you're ever gonna approach him and say that you're interested in getting uh started in the food business or specifically in food writing, please, please have a long list of places you have gone and things you have eaten and avoid saying that X, Y or Z is the best uh like avoid saying things like that's the best hamburger, because he's like, Whoa, so you've eaten every hamburger on Earth. I mean, like I'm just telling you, should you ever approach Jeffrey Steingarden uh to ask him for advice, that is my advice to you. Anyway, uh and I think he's he's down with the with the food museum. He's given us he's given us uh things in the past.
+
+[17:01] So anyway, so this is a food museum, and the idea is to have it in in New York. When when we first came up with the idea, uh there wasn't really uh there weren't any food museums uh of the type we were talking about. I mean, there was Copia in um in Napa, which is closed, unfortunately. Um there's a New York food museum, which is about the history of New York food, but it's a museum that's not meant to have a location. Uh there's now the Museum of Southern Food, um, which you know, I haven't been down there, but you know uh but anyway, so the idea is to start one in in New York.
+
+[17:28] And uh Patrick, uh, you know, the uh the jefe of Heritage Foods uh and the the great leader of this uh radio network um like the idea and say, well, let's start this project, this project up again. And so that's why I'm here talking about it. Today we're gonna have a fundraiser on March 27th, uh, which is uh a Sunday yeah uh and it's gonna be held at Del Posto pretty badass I can say that here right yeah badass yeah pretty badass uh you know uh our friend uh Mark Ladner uh graciously agreed to let us have the fundraiser there uh he'll be cooking we haven't confirmed um all the other chefs yet but it's gonna be big anyway uh we're looking to 200 people something like that two ten is the limit two ten is the limit and if you have any questions about it should you wish to go to this fundraiser uh you can email uh Nastasha N Lopez at French Culinary.com. That's n Lopez at French Culinary.com I'll tell you what I'll be making some uh cocktails will you will I not? Okay.
+
+[18:28] Well well maybe Nastasha doesn't want me to I'm gonna strong basically here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna strong arm and and beat all of my friends and family into submission to work on this damn thing. So I mean they don't they don't even know about it yet but I'm gonna beat on Dave Chang until he says yes. I'm gonna beat on Wiley until he says yes. I'm gonna beat on Dave Wondrich till he says yes uh to make cocktails.
+
+[18:47] So uh if if Audrey's in town I'll beat on her. You know what I mean? It's like this it's gonna be like a full force beat down to try and get as much of the food world uh involved uh well at least our friends in the food world involved in uh I'm gonna give Johnny a beat down Johnny is in I'm gonna give him a beat down. Anyway, so um anyway so that's that's gonna be that's what we're working on uh something that's working on behind the scenes. Another thing we've been working on behind the scenes is our raw food challenge which okay listen listen not a Welcher.
+
+[19:16] I don't want anyone out there to call me a Welcher, but I have to fly to Boca Raton during the week I was supposed to do the raw food uh thing, and that conference that the uh the event that I'm going to involves cooking. Uh and since I will not uh make anything ever that I don't taste before it goes out, I cannot eat raw food during that week. So Nastasha is busy as we speak, rescheduling for one of the first two weeks in February to do the raw food uh extravaganza. But I'll give you some lowdown about what we've tested so far. Bought myself an excalibur dehydrator, right?
+
+[19:56] Which was uh, you know, it's an awesome dehydrator. Uh unfortunately in my house there's no place to to put it, so it's like, you know, up like in the ceiling on top of my printer in a cabinet that can only be accessed on the tallest chair we have, right? That's life. Right. Uh I have I I literally I use my iPhone in camera mode to look and see what the knob is set to, so that I can set the knob.
+
+[20:17] Even at home I'm ghetto. To school, I'm ghetto, at home I'm ghetto, it's always ghetto. Anyway, so um I mean it's not really, I mean, it's an awesome dehydrator. It's just for some reason I have all this great equipment and I managed to make it look stupid by the way I set it up and the horrible conditions I set it up in. That's the story of my life.
+
+[20:33] Something really nice in a pile of filth. That's that's my life in a nutshell, right? Yeah. Something nice in a pile of filth. Anyway, so uh working on uh with the stuff with the dehydrator, um I had Nastasha make a series of sprouts because apparently raw vegan food involves uh a lot of sprouting for various reasons.
+
+[20:53] One, it helps uh grains and things be more easily broken down because as a grain sprouts, uh enzymes go to work, and I guess raw food's all about enzymes anyway. Uh start breaking down some of the starches, making them more uh digestible so that you can uh eat them raw. Uh now, uh Nastasha, how many different things did you sprout? Eight. Eight.
+
+[21:11] So we did mung beans. They didn't look like any mung bean sprouts I've ever had. Like maybe we need to grow them better. You know, I like a mung bean sprout. Like that's the one sprout where I can I will stand up in a hallway and say, hey, you know what, mung bean sprout?
+
+[21:21] You are a good sprout. That is a good sprout among bean sprout, not these. No. But other people seem to enjoy them, right? Did oat oat groats, which Nastasha for some reason thought was oat grout.
+
+[21:30] I don't know why I don't know why you would grout your your tiles with oats, but anyway, oat groats. Apparently she didn't grow up singing the uh oats pea beans and barley groats song. No. Yeah, anyway. Uh so at Zuki beans, uh we did what else do we do?
+
+[21:45] We did lentils. Some of these, by the way, you shouldn't eat raw because they're kind of poisonous. Black-eyed peas, uh, what else? What else do we do? Rye berries.
+
+[21:52] No, we didn't get to do the rye. Something berries. Wheat berries. Wheat berries. All right.
+
+[21:57] Uh wheat berries were not uh were not awful. Right. No, I think that was the only one we the mung berries weren't that. Oh, and we made that stuff rejuvelac, which for those of you that don't know or care, rejuvilac is, you know, you take wheat berries, you let them sprout, and then you s you let them sit in in water to kind of ferment a little bit, and they use that as a Kickstarter for different things. Let me just say that uh um all these sprouts tasted like poison to me.
+
+[22:21] With the exception of the wheat, and I'm not saying this, look, it this is this is good and bad, right? One, I'm not saying that they were bad, because one chef was like, hey, I tasted your sprouts, those are pretty good. I'm like, really? Because to me they tasted like poison. Am I wrong about this?
+
+[22:36] Yeah, like you just sprayed your grass front lawn with poison. Yeah. Poison. Anyway, uh now, but but uh it was good that I had a chef who likes sprouts taste them and say that they were okay because now I know that I just would prefer not to use those things. The wheat sprouts were okay.
+
+[22:53] Yeah, you can use the wheat sprouts. So that's something I'm gonna strike off my list. There's not gonna be any sort of like spur like you know I like the rejuvelac. Yeah, the rejuvilac was good. So the rejuvelac that's like slightly fermented wheat stuff is is good.
+
+[22:59] That's good. I want to see if I can make a raw version of a raw a rye rejuvelac that we can then almost make a kvas out of, which is you know, kvas is like you know, the uh the eastern European Russian fermented uh bread beverage. It's usually made with bread, which is cooked, which means you can't do it, but I want to see if you can do it with just something sprouted. Uh I'm also interested, I don't have time, but I'm interested in trying to work with a raw beer that might be it might be interesting. But anyway, so uh the sprouts taste bad, which means I have to think of something else to do because I didn't like them.
+
+[23:32] We tried another bunch of recipes for uh uh I don't want anyone to get mad. I'm just tasting this, and this is like deciding what I'm gonna eat for this week. We made a bunch of nut cheeses. I don't know why the heck they're called cheeses. They don't taste like cheese.
+
+[23:46] I wasn't there. You didn't taste any of those? It's like basically nuts mixed with rejuvalc and or uh and or orange juice and or you know, and some other stuff, and it into like a mousy paste, and they're used, I guess, as a kind of a cottage cheese replacement in vegan cheese. But you know what they the problem with them is fundamentally is I really like cheese a lot. Cheese to me has a specific texture and taste, which these don't have.
+
+[24:13] I mean, like, could you make a delicious raw nut mousse? Yeah. Yeah, not this. I'm not gonna I was like, no. We did do an interesting thing where we mixed, we soaked a bunch of nuts because you have to uh soak some of these nuts when they're raw because they haven't been roasted and there's stuff in them you want to get out.
+
+[24:27] So we soaked uh macadamias, pistachios, uh sunflower. Uh we didn't have any raw cashews left in the house. We didn't do that. So sunflower seeds, uh shelled, thank God, uh, and almonds all raw. Uh we we uh I put them through a champion juicer, uh, and then after they were soaked, and then we took the paste uh and we squeezed it out, and that actually was really good.
+
+[24:49] It had a really good texture, the oil separated out, and we were able to make little balls that had actually a really good texture. So that will be it's an expensive dish because it had all those nuts and soaked and everything, but you know, that will will probably just seem really expensive and a lot of work, unnecessary work. It's just eat. Yeah, well, now you know it's not unnecessary if the goal is to eat raw. I mean, that the my main problem so far is is that you know I can it's it it does take a lot of pre work to do the the raw the raw food thing.
+
+[25:22] And in our space, we need space. But I mean I can do it, I do it at home, it's not the issue. The issue is is it takes a a lot of work to do it right. Now I'm thinking, now look, let's say you actually ate raw food. Like this is what you did.
+
+[25:35] You ate raw food, right? Who has this level of time to devote to always being three days out? Now I'm sure some of these things become staples. You always have sprouts in your fridge, you always have rejuvenaca brewing, you always have, you know, whatever, whatever cultures are going and you get it to go, you know what I mean? But uh in the absence of that, I mean you'd probably l like you know, like the everyone's image of what raw food people eat, which is the sitting around eating carrots all day.
+
+[26:01] I mean, I could see how you would devolve into that because it's easier. It's it's a heck of a lot easier. You know what I mean? Like these raw food restaurants have to jump through some serious, serious hoops to kind of do the things that they do. Now, the last great experiment, I'm hoping this works really, really well, is the uh marination of vegetable partial dehydration to simulate kind of a roasted flavor.
+
+[26:24] Although I don't even know why you'd have to call it roasted, it's just we can't we say it makes a nice texture out of it. So we'll play with some mushrooms, uh, we'll play with some other things. But barring that, I'm just gonna have to do something like r radically ignore all of the raw food advice that I've gotten. Although, like I said, when I ate at Sarma's restaurant, Sarma Mel and Gaia is a pure food, you know, I liked a good deal of what was put out. You know, so it's not like it can't be done, but I mean I we have to think of our own way of doing it, something that's good.
+
+[26:51] So we're gonna use a rotovap. I'm gonna make uh some low temperature distillates, make all of you uh raw food people out there totally jealous because I'm gonna be drinking sweet, sweet booze that's never been heated, uh uh distilled illegally in my roto vap, right? Um and uh when what else do you want? We can do reductions also low temperature. So we'll be able to do uh fruit reductions that are totally low temp.
+
+[27:15] That's gonna be awesome. We can use enzymes, uh we can use our our pectinase enzymes to break things down to do clarifications. We're gonna make some bang up sauces uh with that kind of stuff. I'm extremely interested in trying to get some transglutaminase that doesn't have maltodextrin, because unfortunately that's been cooked, and doesn't have uh casein because that's not vegan, or gelatin because that's not obviously not vegan, uh, to see whether or not we can strengthen uh nut nut paste um and other other you know suspensions with proteins in them in the absence of heat. Uh I think that could be an interesting uh test, so I'm gonna try and run that.
+
+[27:51] And that shouldn't be uh you know, that shouldn't be a problem for the vegans, right? No. I mean it's an enzyme. Like for raw vegans, it's an enzyme, and it's not animal based, it's microbial based fermentation, so it it shouldn't be a problem. So that's our raw food progress.
+
+[28:04] We welcome any sort of advice. Uh, you know, we've read uh Matthew Kenny's books, we've read uh Sarma's books, we've read uh who's that guy that you really like. Well, there's this guy, I don't know him, but he's got the craziest pictures in his cookbook. His name is you think it's Juliano or Juliano? Probably Juliano.
+
+[28:20] Juliano? Yeah. So we have these uh these books. We have uh Trotter Trotter, what's the name of the woman working with Trotter? Her raw raw.
+
+[28:28] And the problem is like like the and and these cookbooks are good. Right. They're good. I mean they really are. They're they're well done.
+
+[28:36] It's just like, you know, some of the raw ingredients I have issues with, like sprouts, I just detest them. Uh I really do. I wish I could like them. I've never liked them growing up, especially alfalfa sprouts. I can't think of anything I'd less rather have caught in my teeth than alfalfa sprouts.
+
+[28:50] I think the problem is is that even like people who like people who not raw food people, but any any people. People like pea shoots, right? Most people like pea shoots. Guess who doesn't like pea shoots? You.
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+[29:00] Yeah. I mean, I'll eat them. They're not vile, but uh, that kind of raw, starchy taste, I'm averse to. And so since that is inherent in almost every sprout. I like pea shoots.
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+[29:11] I remember Brooks put them in a dessert with strawberry ice cream. Brooks is the pastry chef of Del Posto, one of our favorite pastry chefs. Yeah, I'm sure it's I mean look, everyone in the world likes it except for me. So I'm not saying that you know, I'm right here. I'm clearly wrong.
+
+[29:25] Clearly, pea shoots are delicious, and uh, you know, I find them merely, you know, not awful. You know, uh, but it's that starchy sweet taste that uh I'm not really down with. Anyway, let's go to our second commercial break and come back. Still time to call in two 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking.
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+[29:44] You feel good? So much bone brother. I feel bellows! We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[30:14] We're gonna have a bump good time. We gotta take your high. We gotta take the high brother. Yeah. Now I won't have a body.
+
+[30:46] And then I wanna wave you and let's go and do it every day. Now alright. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Uh 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[30:57] Coming to you from rainy slushy Brooklyn. Okay. Uh, so uh, interesting little story. We were on uh You were on you well, yeah, you were in the studio audience. Uh at the Martha Stewart show.
+
+[31:10] Uh what was that? Like maybe two months ago? Mm-hmm. Anyway, uh Nastasha never lets me uh forget it because I was supposed to complete three cocktails. Then it was cut down to two.
+
+[31:22] Jesus, you know, look. So Nastash's like, you only made it through three quarters of the cocktail. You're an idiot. You're a moron. Why couldn't you make it through it?
+
+[31:29] You're useless. Anyway, my point is is that most of the time when you do demos, the person you're demoing in front of is basically just there kind of reacting. Whereas when Martha Stewart is there with the demo with you, Martha Stewart asks you questions that relate to how things work, and you don't just tell Martha Stewart, she has you met your wife. Not on air. I thought she asked how you met your wife.
+
+[31:54] What? And it completely stuck to you. Well, that's easy. I met my wife in college. Stop making the cocktail.
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+[32:00] Yeah, Nastasha's like, keep plowing through it. Crap on Martha. Who does she think she is to ask you a question about cooking? For real. Anyway, uh, so anyway, so I didn't make it through uh all of the steps that I was supposed to make it through on the program.
+
+[32:16] I made it Nastash's right. I made it about three quarters of the way through uh gin and tonic. I was able to show uh Martha the uh the liquid nitrogen trick of pulverizing uh grapefruit uh pips and blood orange pips into their individual, not really pips, pips or seeds, you know, the fruit, the vesicles, the juice vesicles, pulverize them into individual uh things so that they float around and look pretty. And I knew Martha would love that because you know, if there's anyone in the world that likes a pastel color, it's Martha Stewart, right? So here's what happens.
+
+[32:44] At the at the end of the show, Martha's like, yeah, that's great. I'm figuring she's you know blowing shunshine up my you know what, and uh they have and she's like, that's great. Yeah, I'm like, hey, well, you know, if you're ever interested in any of this stuff, and I demonstrated a centrifuge clarifying uh lime juice and a centrifuge using a combination of agar, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Centerfuge. Uh so uh blah, blah, blah.
+
+[33:04] So and part of the segment was kind of what an eBay ninja I am, and how I was able to get my centrifuge for a hundred dollars on eBay because they I forget that one was because they spelled it like like No, no, no. That one was because Oh, the that one was the the dead fuse. I had a blown fuse in it. Uh the other one I got was because they spelled it s like centrofuge. You know, and I uh I j by the way, eBay friends out there, I just bought a hundred and sixty liter liquid nitrogen duter doer used, but retail value, brand new, two thousand dollars, and uh eBay value ten one thousand to twelve hundred dollars in that range for like three hundred bucks because they spelled nitrogen wrong.
+
+[33:44] Hello. I feel a little bit guilty, actually, frankly, taking advantage of people who spell nitrogen wrong. No way survival of the fittest. Wow. And that's why we call her the hammer, folks.
+
+[33:55] You don't get to see it very often, but that's why they call her the hammer. Anyway, so uh I'm like, you know, Martha, you know, if you ever need anything with this tech stuff, I figure she's not gonna ask me because Grant Aiken's from a liney is right there. Grant's coming on the show, by the way, in uh Spring. Spring, but 'cause he has a new book coming out that I actually have the galleys of. It's a you know kind of a more of a memoir, not a cookbook, more of a memoir.
+
+[34:13] But uh coming on the show, I guess March or something like that, so looking forward to that. Maybe we can get Mirville nominees out sometime. Yeah. His book's coming out soon. Yeah.
+
+[34:21] Well maybe we can get McGee next week. Is he in in town on Tuesday? Anyway, we'll get maybe we'll get you some good guess. Anyway, uh because we haven't gotten a guess in like eight billion years, but we'll get you some good guess. Anyway, what the hell was I talking about?
+
+[34:32] Oh yeah. Martha. So Martha is sitting there uh and I'm like figuring she's not gonna ask me for anything. And the next day her uh the assistant calls, her assistant calls and says, Hey, Martha wants a centrifuge. I'm like, Really?
+
+[34:46] Yeah, like for the show? She's like, No, for her house. I'm like, all right, what's your budget? And Martha is so kind of love the fact that I'm this kind of scrounging, you know, person who glues everything together with duct tape and bubblegum. Quality and filth.
+
+[35:00] Quality and filth. Uh that she's like, I don't know, three hundred bucks? I'm like, what? This is something I swear that if you want to buy one that is uh in working condition, that's good, that you trust with your with your family, let's say, right? That's a twelve hundred dollar that's a twelve hundred to fifteen hundred dollar problem, right?
+
+[35:18] New, we're talking a seven thousand dollar to ten thousand dollar pr uh problem. Wiley Dufrein just had his got his new center futures doing some interesting stuff actually. Wiley called me and says that like he's and uh now I kick myself, he's churning butter in it. That's pretty cool. That's cool.
+
+[35:31] That's cool. I shouldn't maybe have said that on the air. He's churning butter with it. Anyway, so the uh um so she's like three hundred bucks because she wants to get like the coolest bargain. She wants to be part of the the eBay bargain thing.
+
+[35:42] I was like, you realize for three hundred dollars, I'm gonna have to buy a broken one and pray I can fix it and that it hasn't been, you know, dipped in too much feces that I can't clean off. So these are all have all sorts of nasty blood and blah blah blah. I mean they're all they're hardcore, right? So uh she's like uh that's okay, I can wait. So eventually we did f yeah, right.
+
+[36:03] So we did find one, thing was was dead totally. Yeah, and but you know, look, again like anything else with eBay, it's the uh it's I was reading the description to see kind of what was wrong with it, like how it was broken, and then kind of praying that I can fix it. And I determined that because the motor could spin freely and the tachometer still worked and everything powered up, that if I was lucky, right, it was a problem either with a wire leading to the motor, that would be the best. Or it was uh a problem with the actual uh brushes, because these are brush and mo motors, so there's carbon brushes that are in it that uh basically uh transfer the the uh you know electricity from the winding uh out you know back to the thing and so these go bad after a while, and if someone's a jerk and they haven't replaced them, then everything goes south and the machine stops working. Well, lo and behold, it was the brushes.
+
+[36:49] So uh, you know, you bought a center fuge for under three hundred bucks. I think we paid two. Two something, it was three fifty altogether. With shipping and everything, right? And refrigeration works great.
+
+[36:59] Replace the brushes. That was a six dollar, no, sixteen after I could buy two sets of brushes. Sixteen dollar problem. And boom, Martha's got a centrifuge. So as soon as she gets her uh self back in the country, uh Martha Stewart's gonna be rocking with the cooking issues uh she'd love to do that.
+
+[37:16] She's gonna churn some butter, she's gonna we're gonna give her a starter kit of enzymes. Really? Well, why not? She's Martha Stewart. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:23] I guarantee you, Martha Stewart's got some fancy fruit, right? That she can clarify in that centrifuge. So that's our first celebrity hookup where we're hooking a celebrity up with some high tech equipment, and that's cooking issues for this week with Martha Stewart Centerfuge. Join us next week for cooking issues.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Tabbered Inn. Feast on eclectic American cuisine in their acclaimed restaurant or enjoy a cocktail and listen to live jazz in one of their cozy Victorian sitting areas. Mingle with travelers from around the world who find the tabard the only place to stay when their travels bring them to Washington. For more information, visit www.tabered in dot com Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, the show where you call in or email in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:44] Cooking Issues uh big old hammer, bringing the hammer down on all you people that don't behave. Although we've never had anyone not behave actually. We've never actually had to use your hammer. I think you're just so frightening. Right.
+
+[0:54] Yeah, yeah, that's it. Okay, so calling all your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. Uh here for the next 45 minutes or so, so uh please call in your questions. Um so uh what's going on here, Nastasha? I'm flying out to Florida today, right?
+
+[1:12] Yeah. Yeah. Did you look over the stuff? No, of course not. But they don't need to know that.
+
+[1:16] Uh by the way, uh if well, it is true. I'll give you a partial announcement now, but uh in in the near future, you know, we might be open to consulting kinds of situations. Uh but just so you know, should you ever hire uh me, Nastasha, which is a cooking issues team at this point, uh, should you ever uh hire us for anything, uh we're not gonna think about your problem until it's actually time to think about your problem. That's well, we'll try to break him of that if we can. Sure.
+
+[1:46] So speaking of thinking about problem, last week we came on the show and we asked uh for any sort of suggestions as to what to do with our 3D printer. Because we have this 3D printer that was given to us by the Fab at home uh guys at Cornell. It's a it prints basically it's a syringe that moves around in three dimensions and squeezes out, you know, at a at a very precise rate any sort of paste, any paste that you want. And they wanted to come up with a good food application, and uh we didn't for about eight months, we didn't come up with one. And uh, you know, finally a couple people have called to interviewed me actually about what I thought about 3D food printing, and I always said pretty much the same thing, which is no one's thought of a really good application yet, and you know, I think it's a you know there's no need to print, you know, the Mickey Mouse in the in the you know out of uh out of turkey paste.
+
+[2:30] I mean there's just no need for it because I can you know I could I could I could make a Mickey Mouse mold and then spread I'm going to Orlando today, which is why I'm thinking about it. Is a you you know make a Mickey Mouse mold and spread it into uh into a silicone you know thing, then I could make a whole bunch of turkey things that way. So I never thought that like weird shapes was an interesting application for me for uh 3D printer. And uh lo and behold, we came up with this what I thought was uh a good idea in conjunction with Jeffrey Lipton, who uh runs the uh program, the Fab at Home program up at Cornell, and it was well, uh we're gonna take w what I think is one of the ultimate pastes of all time, which is masa dough, nixtamalized corn. I mean, it's you know, what's better than masa, Nastasha?
+
+[3:10] Anything? You're going to Boca. Oh, eh, whatever. Florida. Anyway, so is there anything better than uh anything?
+
+[3:16] No offense to Florida. No offense to Florida, but you know, it's just not my not my place. So I hate the sun, I hate, you know, flat landscapes, and you know, Spanish moss is okay. Anyway, whatever. Uh so the uh but in anything better than masa, right?
+
+[3:28] So uh we had this thing where we print out this squiggly shape of masa and it looks great and it has a great texture like shredded wheat and it but it tastes awesome like a tortilla chip. I thought it was fantastic. CNN shows up, we give them this long song and dance about you know what these applications are good for. You know, what the printers are really good for coming up with maybe with new textures or for you know um ideation, thinking about new ways to make things, uh, and they basically you know and what I say what I'm not interested in is this whole idea that in the future it's gonna be the Jetsons or Star Trek and you're gonna push a button and and all of a sudden your meal is gonna come out. And you know, for instance, there's nothing I think worse in the world than thinking that if you press a button your meal is gonna is gonna pop out.
+
+[4:08] I mean, what could be more horrific to a cook than thinking that we're totally going to remove human beings from the cooking process and furthermore, you know, get us even further away from uh you know from the from the food chain from where our food comes from from the from the whole food supply system to a point where we don't care that everything that's served to us, you know, comes in a tube and is extruded out of a syringe into random shapes. Honey, what shape do you want your turkey paste in tonight? We had Mickey yesterday. Uh goofy? I mean, seriously, like what like what is that, right?
+
+[4:39] Right. It's crazy. Anyway, so we I thought we had one over the uh CNN money people, and yesterday I looked at the CNN money piece on the web, and I was horrified to see that what they took away from it was that in the future we will basically print turkey paste. You knew that. We spoke about that.
+
+[5:01] I felt like we had made a connection with them and uh and that they kind of you know underst like understood at least our point of view that that was a horrible, horrible, horrible idea. Anyway, uh go read our post on it to see what we what we think about it. That's a enough enough diatribe, right? Enough diatribe for today. All right.
+
+[5:20] So uh we have a uh a quick couple questions in from uh John Meyer. Uh met him what, yesterday, day before? Yes. Uh and first question is on uh cheese tempering. So the question is, hey, listen, I bought some cheese and I put it in my fridge.
+
+[5:32] You know, I think maybe that was, you know, maybe the first mistake, put it in the fridge. I mean, depends. If you're gonna buy the cheese today, I would never put it in the fridge. We'll get into that. I have cheese, it's in the fridge, I forgot to take it out.
+
+[5:42] Or I bought it uh, you know, you know, right before I went to somebody's house and it was in the refrigerated case at the store, the store doesn't know how to keep their cheese, XYZ, whatever. And uh the problem is now I have to eat it. What can I do besides throwing it in the oven and or or the microwave, or just waiting for a couple of hours? Well, I feel your pain, uh, John, I really do. I remember once I uh flew back from France and I smuggled in my favorite my I think my favorite cheese in the world, which is Vachram Mondor.
+
+[6:09] My wife used to have to go out to France uh to Paris every January for a trade show, and I would go out with her and I would, you know, just basically uh swim through like like w wheel after wheel of Vachram Mondor, and you know, you cut off the top, you scoop it out, you eat it all in there really is almost no better experience on earth than crusty bread and Vachra Mondor. Just d you know, that's it. That's the kind of the apogee so far in my life. I mean uh anyway, hopefully it gets better. Right?
+
+[6:33] I mean you don't really have the like you know the ultimate food experience like that, and then you know you're only not even forty yet, and then that's it. Anyway, uh so the um so I smuggled this thing back, and I'm planning on having Sunday family dinner because every Sunday I have family dinner, the family comes over to my house and we know we cook a big meal. And uh uh horror of horror, it was put in the fridge. Uh I won't say, you know, I won't say by whom. It was put in the fridge and uh there wasn't enough time to temper the thing out.
+
+[7:03] And uh, and I was I was you know it was just the it was one of the worst food experiences in my life because it tasted good. I put it in the oven, but it it tasted good, but it wasn't it, you know, the the the greatest thing in in the world. It wasn't what it should have been. Like here you smuggle this wheel of cheese back, you think it should be the greatest thing in the world. It wasn't.
+
+[7:19] So I definitely feel your pain, John. Here are my suggestions to you. One, if you're buying cheese, just don't put it in the dang fridge. If you have a wine cooler, put it in the wine cooler, let it sit there, unless it's gonna go for a very long time, it's gonna be fine, or something like a mozzarella. Even when I buy mozzarella, I buy it, I don't put it in the fridge.
+
+[7:33] Even if I buy it in the morning, I'm gonna eat it in the evening, I don't put it in the fridge. Because I know I'm gonna put it in the fridge or freeze it after I'm done that first day, because I don't carry it over to the second day anyway, because that I use it for cooking at that point. And mozzarella really will be okay in a cool spot uh for the whole day. You don't need to you don't need to worry about it. That's one.
+
+[7:50] I should also further say that there are some people, I'm not one of them, but there are some people that that feel that cheeses should be served a lot cooler than we serve them in general, that they should be served at cellar temp, basically at your wine cooler temp. I don't agree with that, but there's some very you know fine cheese sources that that do say that. Okay, so one is just don't ever put it in the fridge. This would be my first recommendation. Um second would be you could, and this doesn't apply to soft cheeses like Vachron or things like that, but the harder cheeses, and I hate this, but you could do this, you could cut the cheese up into slices beforehand, uh, cover it with a layer of plastic wrap and chamber them because they'll chamber very rapidly if they're cut into pieces.
+
+[8:26] I happen to not like that because I hate the look of the cheese as it warms up, sweating out, or the fat coming up to the top. I don't prefer precise cheese, but this is definitely an option if there's no uh uh other alternative. Now, on the subway over here, I thought of a third alternative that you might want to look at that I've never actually tried, but I guarantee it will work. That is take tap water, turn it on so that the uh temperature of the tap water is roughly uh in the mid 80s, so slightly below your body temperature, but slightly warmer than your normal tap water, which is probably running between 50, depends on where you live, but could be as high as 60 or 70 uh degrees. Uh put it up to about 80 degrees um and then uh put your cheese in a Ziploc bag and uh use the instructions on the cooking issue blog uh under the uh low temperature primer on which I need to finish, geez.
+
+[9:12] Uh uh how to package things in ziplocks. Basically you put it in a ziploc and you immerse the thing uh in the ziploc underwater to force out the air, you close it, then keep that Ziploc bag in the running tap water at the right temperature, and it will chamber lickety split without the water getting on the cheese and without overheating it, because I really find there's no good way to temper out cheese in a microwave or in an oven without uh ruining a good portion of it. What do you think, Steph? I think that's a good answer. Yeah, good answer.
+
+[9:38] All right, good, thanks. Uh okay. Uh uh second question from John is uh I saw Richard Blaze on uh on on uh his television program, uh was trying to make pizza, threw a bunch of binshootan uh charcoal in there and got his oven up to you know eight hundred, nine hundred degrees Fahrenheit. That's a good trick. I hadn't thought oh the question is is it gonna ruin your oven?
+
+[9:56] Is it safe, etc. etc.? Well, that's that's a separate question. But uh I I feel that that would uh that would work. I mean I have electric uh I have electric heaters, electric stone heaters in the bottom and top of my oven to jack the temperature up to uh 850.
+
+[10:10] Uh that that that's how I do it, but it c you could definitely light uh coals in your uh in your oven. Here are the caveats. One, the Japanese have been cooking with coal indoors for a long time. Uh every bag of coal that you purchase will say right on it that you're not allowed to cook it inside. And the reason is they don't want to generate a a lot of smoke and b a lot of carbon monoxide.
+
+[10:29] So, you know, um one, I would say that if you're gonna burn coal inside of your kitchen, you better have some good ventilation. That's one. Please have some have some good ventilation. Uh but that said, places that do have good ventilations do do it inside. Although no one in the United States will tell you it's safe.
+
+[10:43] Okay. Secondly, he's using binshoton charcoal, which is an extremely expensive form of Japanese charcoal, which theoretically they say gives off less smoke than our standard ordinary charcoal here in the US. However, if you buy real hardwood charcoal that you open it up and the thing looks like it was a piece of wood back in the day and is now a piece of charcoal, I mean, I don't know how much better the binchoton can be than that stuff. It burns fairly clean for uh a charcoal you can get here and isn't that expensive. They carry it at home depot, they carry it at some stores.
+
+[11:16] So you you could do that. Now, uh it's gonna like I don't bencheton or whatever, you know, Kingsford briquettes, don't use Kingford's briquettes in your oven. But any of these things, nothing against the Kingsford Corporation. But any of these things, no matter what, are gonna generate some carbon monoxide, so you need to be aware of that and you need to to ventilate it properly. The third thing is are you gonna damage the oven?
+
+[11:36] Uh well, it's possible. I don't depends on what your oven is made out of. I mean, I would elevate the stuff on a grate. You're gonna need to make sure that air can you have a sufficient air supply in your oven to get it uh started. Uh and I would also put uh a heat shield uh above it, like a a piece of steel or something above the direct uh flame.
+
+[11:56] So if you were to build the uh the put your pizza stone in the bottom of the oven, then build the binshoton on top of that, then have some sort of like a a deflector shield above in case you get a roaring fire up. And I please try not to get a roaring fire. Uh it it I think theoretically is possible. Also don't overload it, don't go crazy. You're you're basically just trying to get an extra hundred or two degrees out of it because your oven's probably gonna make it up to five fifty and you're only looking for an extra couple hundred degrees out of it.
+
+[12:23] So it's I think the idea is just to not go uh super crazy with the amount of uh of coal that you put in, right? Yeah, but uh he lives in New York, so he's right. He does? Yeah. Ugh, well, if it's a rental, then go ahead.
+
+[12:37] Do it. Uh then when your landlord comes, be like, huh? What? Yeah. Uh yeah.
+
+[12:43] If you're if you're in New York, uh, I doubt you have decent ventilation. I'll tell you a little story. I might have told this on the radio once already. I did. Yeah.
+
+[12:51] Uh I once lit enough coal in my house. I have a good hood. I once lit enough coal in my house to ignite the small hibachi that I had uh uh put into it and uh yeah, almost got me divorced. You know, not yeah. Anyway, so be careful.
+
+[13:05] Be careful. Although I have seen people light bins uh charcoal inside our amphitheater at the school and not have uh basically any smoke at all. Because you know, they would light it on top of the uh gas burners. They would ignite it and then they'd pull it off, and it is fairly clean burning, more clean burning than most of most of our charcoals. Uh, but again, only use it for that extra couple uh hundred degrees to pump up.
+
+[13:28] Alright, so listen, uh we're gonna have you call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're gonna go to our first commercial break, cooking issues. Hello!
+
+[13:38] How you feel, brother? Feeling good? You feel good? So much bone bell. How you feel, man?
+
+[13:45] I'm feeling nice. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, bellow? Sure getting down. Look at him!
+
+[13:57] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Don't take him up, friend.
+
+[14:23] All right. We gotta take you high. Now I won't have a body. Let red blow up you call us a big. Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[14:44] Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I hear we have a caller. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hey, I was listening to the first part of the show, and uh I also find that things are bad when they're put in the fridge.
+
+[14:58] What is why is that? What is the chemical reaction happening that takes taste away from like vegetables and cheeses and meats and like cured meats when they're actually put in a cold space? That's a very interesting question. Uh, I think you know the w everything's different with different uh with different products. So, you know, uh in tomatoes, it's it's the texture that gets ruined of the tomato, never to come back.
+
+[15:22] Uh cheese, a lot of it is reversible. Uh, we did a study once uh where we took uh balls of mozzarella, uh fresh ones, all from the same batch, and we refrigerated some uh and then let them chamber for a long time back, and we and uh it's posted on the blog, but a long time ago, and um we did, you know, it most of it actually does come back. We think there is some effect that putting it in the in the fridge ever hurts its texture irrevocably, but it's not as much as we generally think because uh the texture of cheeses is so dependent on temperature that even a couple of degrees in the center of like a ball of mozzarella or something like that means the difference between it being, you know, uh delicious and you know oo oozy, you know, awesome and and being rubbery, right? So it's like part of it is the fact that I think we never do allow something enough time to uh to chamber up. But I mean also like like something like cured meats also uh haven't run a side by side clearly out of the like you know, everyone says when you're tasting cured meats when they're cold, you know, put 'em on your tongue, let them warm up.
+
+[16:25] But it's not I mean, look, it's not the same thing as having a piece of meat served to you at the right temperature and not having to like lay it on your tongue for thirty seconds to try and warm it up. Do you know what I'm saying? So um with that I don't know what the actual uh problem is. I mean th like certain effects like this, like with cheese, the the question is uh or tomatoes. This happens just from the the temperature change.
+
+[16:48] And then there's problems with the refrigerator itself. So uh, you know, like uh or freezer, right, which could be desiccating, it could be removing moisture, it could be uh adding really bad aromas. Most fridges, like you know, for most fridges have awful aromas on the inside of them. Just turn off the fridge, which allows the volatiles to become, you know, kind of uh you know better for your nose, and you can see kind of the nasty things that are going on in your fridge. But um I'd have to research kind of other like which rich which vegetables do you have in mind as being never as good when they're in the fridge.
+
+[17:17] Some by the way, are never as good uh after they're stored, period, because you change their metabolism. Most of these vegetables a lot of vegetables are basically still alive when they're being pulled, right? And so uh, you know, you you alter their metabolism rate, you change their metabolism rate, and they just are turning to crap anyway. So the fact that you're putting it in the fridge and storing it for longer means you're reducing its quality. Does that make sense?
+
+[17:37] Absolutely. Alright. Well, I'll look into this more. Maybe we'll talk about it, right, Nastasha? Right.
+
+[17:41] We'll look at we'll look into this more. And we'll talk about it more. All right. Did I hear another ring? Do we have someone in or out?
+
+[17:48] No. Okay. So I have another question then from John. And this is a this is a doozy. This is going to take a while.
+
+[17:54] So dig yourself in, Nastasha. Nastasha's gonna actually have to pay attention instead of I don't know, doing whatever she normally does. Drift off into sleep while I'm speaking. And uh the question is, uh, and this was actually posed to me by several people uh in the past couple of days. Why is it or how is it that we use ice, we use salt to melt ice on the roads, right?
+
+[18:13] Although we're usually using calcium chloride, not sodium chloride, but principle's the same. Uh why do we do that? Uh and at the same time, when we're in a kitchen, if we want to make something really, really cold, we want to keep our stuff cold, we dump salt onto ice. So in one case, uh it seems like we're using it to melt it, which seems like we're warming it up, and in the other case, we're using it to actually cool it down to make it you know colder. And so what's going on?
+
+[18:37] Seems like a contradiction, right? Right. It's not. It's not a contradiction. Uh and this is something that is actually uh poorly explained by uh most high school teachers when when uh you're learning it, not by my high school teacher, Mrs.
+
+[18:50] Zook, my chemistry teacher was awesome, but and maybe that's where the reason why where I am today. But uh, but uh well there's a lot of things. I never had snow in California, so I think Oh, nanny nanny, nanny nanny poo-poo. All right. So uh, you know, I come from a place where we have seasons where I don't have to drive to see snow.
+
+[19:06] Uh so uh no offense, California. Uh okay, so here's what's going on. Uh when you add uh it's it's all it it's actually kind of complicated, but you know, bear with me. It it's all about a fight between uh uh heat, enthalpy, and entropy, right? So here's what happens.
+
+[19:25] In order to melt ice, uh you need heat. That makes sense, right, Nastasha? Yes. You need heat to m to melt ice, right? And the reason why is because ice is at a lower energy uh than water at the same temperature.
+
+[19:37] So in order to make it from ice into water, you have to add energy. And that that's called the the heat of fusion, right? And that that takes about 80 calories, uh, 80 calories per per mole, right? So every uh every gram no per gram. Uh whatever.
+
+[19:54] Anyway, 80 cal melting one gram of water is enough. I'll put it this way melting one gram of water, I believe, is enough uh energy uh to raise that same gram of water 80 degrees again. That's how much energy it is. So it's not insubstantial, right? It's a lot of energy.
+
+[20:07] It's called the heat effusion. Um it requires energy uh to melt to melt the ice. Now, uh which means right that that things want to be at a lower energy, so at you know, in general, uh things want to turn into ice to go into that lower, lower energy state to give off that uh, you know, that heat and become ice. Now, uh there's a competing principle here, which is things like to be disordered. Entropy, right, is basically uh how much uh disorder there is in a system and the s and the universe wants to be disordered, chaotic, have uh, you know, lots of different states available for everything, maximum chaos, you know, like our lives.
+
+[20:44] And um and and so what happens is is that um at zero degrees where ice normally melts, it's the point at which the amount of uh the amount of entropy, right? The the the the amount of heat that you have to um that you have to add to to melt the ice is balanced by the amount of entropy uh gain you get from from melting it. It's not making any sense to people. Read it on our blog, it'll make make more sense. But it's this fight between enthalpy and entropy, and it's all balanced on uh temperature.
+
+[21:17] When you add salt to the system, right, what happens is is that now there's it's it's more states of disorder that water can be in when it's in um when it's in the solution with the salt. So therefore, right, uh the entropy win is greater and the temperature at which the stuff freezes drops. So now you can forget everything I said for the last three minutes because I'm sure it didn't make any sense. Read it on our blog and keep this in your head. When you add w uh ice to uh add salt to ice, what you're doing is making it so that uh everything wants to freeze at a lower temperature.
+
+[21:51] And we all know that you know salt water freezes at a lower temperature than ice, right? So here's what goes on. In order for the ice to melt into salt water, you need to have heat. Heat needs to go into the system to do it. But where's the heat going to come from, Nastasha?
+
+[22:08] Where's the heat going to come from? No. The heat's gonna come from the ice. The heat's gonna come from the ice. So when you take a big block of salt uh ice and you add salt on it, right?
+
+[22:19] Like the ice is gonna start to melt into the salt, it's gonna form a brine, but in order to do it, it's gonna require heat. That heat has to come from the block of ice because that's the easiest way for it to get. It's not gonna suck it out of the air because that's not fast enough. And so the entire block of ice along with the salt brine is gonna get colder. And that's what happening when you're making your Mizon Place, right?
+
+[22:38] Now, if there's not enough ice there, right, to all get colder and not melt, you melt it all out, right? Furthermore, if you let it sit there for a long time, energy is gonna go into the air and then it's gonna keep remelting more. So it's basically uh the same thing happens. When you put salt on ice on a road, initially the whole block of ice is gonna get colder, right? And then it's eventually going to uh to melt off alonging you as long as you've depressed the freezing point uh long enough uh h low enough such that it uh it can't freeze in your ambient atmosphere.
+
+[23:14] And that temperature where it's gonna freeze right in ambient atmosphere in a fully saturated salt solution is quite low, like you know, in the minus tens. Uh so it's uh so the system all works and it's not a contradiction, and that didn't make a damn bit of sense. No one's gonna understand what the hell I was talking about. You should have your old chemistry teacher on. Mrs.
+
+[23:31] Hook? We should have Mrs. Hook on. Uh, but you can go on the blog and look up cocktail science, the very first cocktail science we uh post, I posted about a year and a half ago, has a much more lucid and easier to follow, easier to reread uh explanation of it, and I apologize for uh kind of going all over the place. What do you think?
+
+[23:49] Did it make any damn sense at all? We have a caller. We have a caller, even though that made no damn sense at all. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hopefully I'll make more sense.
+
+[23:56] Oh, hi, sorry, this is Antonette. Um I have a question that's completely off topic. So I don't know if uh if you want to wait for me a few more minutes to go through the ice. Well, no, no, no, well how how off topic? Let's hear it.
+
+[24:07] Like really, like something about cars? No, I was wondering, have you read uh Andrew Bear's Mark Twain's feast? Uh no, I haven't. Tell me a little bit about it. It's he c he goes through Twain's A Tramp Abroad, and Twain went through how he loved all these American foods that no longer exist, and uh he tries to recreate all these dishes from the eighteen hundreds.
+
+[24:30] Oh, how is it? It's all it's it's I recommend it. I I I do recommend it. I love I love Twain. I mean I love Twain, he's one of the great kind of you know funny misanthropic writers, you know, of America, wouldn't you think?
+
+[24:44] I no, I definitely I I agree. That's why I I think you'll like this book. I definitely recommend you get it. And um what I was calling about is Twain apparently liked his coffee, American coffee much more than coffee abroad because of our milk and they're guessing it's because it was raw milk and I wanted to know your thoughts on the raw milk debate. Raw milk debate.
+
+[25:07] Uh well okay I mean uh so wait so their theory was that the milk in uh in Europe was pasteurized before the milk is was here? I don't know. I don't know the actual I don't know the truth or falsity of that. Um I know that the the milk we used to get was alternately the milk back in the day, back in the day like pre for instance pre-Eerie Canal, pre-railroad into New York City, the milk we used to get was alternately was horrible here but could be much better in the country where now we kind of get a uh a kind of broadband mediocre milk uh no offense to the milk people. Um my d my feeling on on the raw milk is that I'm sure that there is both good milk uh good raw milk and bad raw milk.
+
+[25:48] I have had some fantastic raw milk and I'm sure you're aware that you know uh here in in the United States you have to buy it directly from the farm. So for instance we have a farm in uh at the green market here in New York that sells raw milk when you buy it in upstate New York at the farm and it has warning labels all over it but they can't ship it into New York to sell it at the farmers market here. Um you mean my debate on its taste or my debate on the law? I mean the law is absurd. But I mean okay the law's ridiculous.
+
+[26:16] The law was originally put in place because they thought that you could get tuberculosis from cows and so they started pasteurizing uh the the milk. Uh I'm sure pasteurization has done um a lot of good uh you know, in keeping milk for a longer period of time, but there's no question that um I mean you can have really good cheeses that are made with pa pasturized milk. Obviously I've had many, many, but uh, you know, that said, you know, most of the great cheeses of the world outside of the US are made with unpasteurized milk. So it would be interesting to do a a side by side test, which I've never done, of the same exact company, same exact process, pasteurized versus not, same milk, same cow. Uh I've never I've never had that happen.
+
+[26:57] I had great experience with the raw milk that I've purchased at farms here, but it's because they're great farmers and they make great milk. Do you know what I'm saying? And the milk and and and th a lot more happens to our milk other than just pasteurization. You know, it's broken up, it's homogenized. So, um you know, I think uh there's a there's a lot wrong with uh there's a lot wrong with our milk supply based on what it could be.
+
+[27:19] I mean it's really only I only ideal in the sense of it's relatively cheap compared to what it actually you know probably should cost if it was done right and it lasts a relatively long time. But that's about all I can say kind of good about it. What do you think? Well, I I think um I think it's a little absurd the law again, like I as you said before, but also I think it's almost impossible to really recreate the milk that uh Twain is talking about as Andrew Bears is trying to do in the book. I don't know how we would possibly be able to recreate it exactly.
+
+[27:51] Uh yeah, I mean there are people that have the same kind of breeds of cows, they're treating them in the same kind of way. It's just not mass I mean I'm sure in a micro way you could go reproduce it because you know, you could go to someone who's pasturing a very similar cow. The the breeds of cow that were uh you know around back then are still extant. And you know, you could get them, you could find someone milking them uh and you know and you could get it directly from the cow, you know, uh this is all possible, it's just not feasible in New York, for instance. Uh do you know what I mean?
+
+[28:21] Um I've talked to a bunch of food scientists who say that I'm a jerk for saying that the that the law is absurd because they point to the fact that you know indeed there are diseases you can get from uh raw milk cheeses that haven't been pasteurized, and and it is true that there are a certain number of people who uh you know can I guess contract uh diseases from raw milk. However, I'm willing to take that I'm more than willing to take that risk. And nine times out of ten nowadays in the US when someone gets a disease off of a cheese, for instance, or a dairy product, it's off of pasteurized product that's just been stored incorrectly. So I mean the the big uh the big you know problems in the past, I think in the 70s and 80s were queso blanco, queso fresco that were just uh you know not uh that didn't have any back because you know having a bacteriological, you know, having a bacteria component, a culture in the milk protects it against certain pathogens. So I think it's actually kind of these uh pasteurized and then stored in properly recontaminated products can sometimes be less safe.
+
+[29:21] But you know, again, I've had uh dairy scientists, you know, just tell me that I was a complete jackass for saying that, but I I mean I look, I think we should just slap a label on it. I'm allowed to smoke if I want. You know what I mean? Uh for instance, and I think that's a lot more dangerous than you know eating the cheese that I want. Uh and I think and their point is yes, but the consumer doesn't know that there's a risk to eating cheese, whereas they know there's a risk to smoking.
+
+[29:45] So I say, hey, why don't we just slap a warning label on it? And they're like, well, a producer wouldn't want to do that and be like, I would love that. You kidding me? Like, you think that the people that I know that I hang out with that are paying a bazillion dollars a pound for a block of cheese anyway, right? And I used to cheese was always my favorite thing in the world because uh you know, my theory was I could afford the best cheese in the world.
+
+[30:05] I can't afford the best wine. It's no longer really the case because cheeses have gotten so expensive. But you know, you know, we can afford to have at least a little bit of the best cheese in i in the world, and I think that we would flock to a cheese that had a big old warning label on it saying it was made with raw meat. We'd look for it. It wouldn't be that it would frighten us, we would actually seek it out.
+
+[30:23] You know, um but anyway, that's just my my feeling on it. But I'm definitely gonna check out that book as a fan of Twain and as a fan of 19th century American uh cooking. And you know, an interesting, you know, the the take on 19th century American cooking, I guess it most sticks in my head was uh uh uh what was her name? Oh my god, Hess. The the couple, what was their name?
+
+[30:41] Oh my god. My my head's gone. He was the she was a famous food historian, and he was a uh he was a New York Times critic for a while, and they they wrote a book called uh Taste of America. She just passed away recently. She's real curmudgeon.
+
+[30:53] Like her main gripe was that American food used to be great before the invention of baking powder. You know, and then that baking powder ruined everything. That was her basic uh that was her basic tenet. And she was a real kind of like uh, I think a tough, you know, a tough individual, but she was hanging out with the likes of William Moyce Weaver, uh and you know, writers like that, people who really have kept uh you know, William Voice Weaver is big on uh Pennsylvania Dutch and food saving and heirloom vegetables. And these guys have really um brought back a lot of the old the old recipes, and I think there's a lot of value there.
+
+[31:23] So I'm definitely gonna check out that book and thanks for bringing it to our attention. No problem. Alrighty. Let's go to another break. Uh oh, uh commercial break time?
+
+[31:31] All right, we're going to a commercial break. Please call in all your questions too. 718 uh whatever it is, four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Cooking issues.
+
+[31:39] You feel good? Thanks so much, Bone brother. How do you feel, man? Call your name. I don't want to people to know you're in, yeah.
+
+[31:48] How you feel, fella? Sure getting down. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[32:09] We're gonna have a bump good time. Don't take them up, Bread. We gotta take you high. Yeah, that's the one. We gotta take you high.
+
+[32:37] Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow by two cords. Welcome back to cooking issues. Still got a couple minutes left here in the studio, although I'm told we will have to get off the air at uh 745 fairly promptly. Uh 745.
+
+[32:48] Oh my god, 1245. My brain. My brain is fried. We're talking about frying in a minute. Call your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:56] That's 718-497-2128. And we have a question about a registry, huh, Nastasha? What do we got? Same fried chicken guy. So which one do you want to go?
+
+[33:02] I want to that's very nice. We I apologize, uh uh Clayton, for you being referred to as same fried chicken guy. So uh let's uh Nestal that's why we call her the hammer. No tact, no tact, just a hammer, big blunt instrument. Anyway, give us the uh give us the registration question and then we'll deal with fried chicken later.
+
+[33:17] All right. One more question if he has time. I'm getting married soon and would like to use my wedding registry to beef up my kitchen. What are a few items that any modern cook shouldn't be without? Okay, I would recommend you get some rich friends.
+
+[33:30] That's the first thing. And uh register for an immersion circulator. If you do not already own an immersion circulator, you should register for an immersion circulator. If you throw three parties this year, you will be happy that you have an immersion circulator. Um let me think about this for a minute, because I'm just thinking about this, and then we're gonna take a call and we'll come we'll come back to it along with along with the fried chicken question.
+
+[33:48] Caller, you're on the air. Hi, this is Hannah. Um I'm just calling because I like to buy kind of chicken and fish, and I'm always looking for a new healthy sauce to cook with them. Right. Do you have any recommendation?
+
+[33:59] A new healthy uh what? Sauce? Sauce to cook with chicken or fish. Wow. Uh I I in general so you want a thick sauce or a thin sauce?
+
+[34:09] You want something to serve or you want uh something something separate? Like what are you what are you what are you looking for? Well I I tend to I'm just getting bored of my ones I'm ready open. I tend to just do kind of um a tomato base like a pisata with um just onions and some spices. Um anything different already.
+
+[34:26] All right. So here's what I would recommend. Anytime you're looking to uh to change your your sauce repertoire. What what first of all there's a very good uh very, very good book on sauces. I highly recommend it uh by James James Peterson called Sauces.
+
+[34:38] It won like the a beard award like maybe maybe about twelve years ago. It's available kind of very cheaply, I think, on Amazon now. Uh or you know, y you use. It's a fantastic book, and what I like about it is it is it teaches like basically f fundamentals of sauce making and um how to build on sauces starting with certain bases. So what I would do is I would I would come up with a couple of techniques that you like that you can then build a bunch of uh flavors off of.
+
+[35:03] So for instance, whenever I have a vegetarian now, now you're talking about chicken, so it's you know it's different, but you can use this sauce. Whenever I whenever I have a vegetarians coming over, I do one of it, which is a lot, uh actually. I have um various uh variations of fundamental coconut milk sauce that that we make. And it you have a good blender. Uh yeah.
+
+[35:23] Yeah. So it's you know, uh we'll do you know, it's use so it's a variant on Indian, but you could switch it to Asian or Thai if you want. It's just you know, uh pre-cook your your uh your your um your onions, your shallots or whatever you want, your garlic, then put in your spices, you know, hit them with the heat a little bit, then uh usually put in cashews, sometimes tomato paste, if if I want it red, sometimes not. Then your to you know, your coconut milk, you know, you heat, blend, correct with lime uh and or soy and or and or whatever. But I have like maybe 15, 16 sauces that I can build out of the simple idea that I'm gonna start with frying my ingredients, toasting the spices, uh throwing in probably a nut to beef it up, and then um and then um coconut milk and blend.
+
+[36:08] Similarly, I have you know, 13 or 14 different variants of uh you know, fry frying up that I can say I'll start with frying the onions and uh and garlic, uh frying that, and then uh you know, some form of cheese, cheese uh, you know, and herb and oil blended. Or so they all work that way. And you know, these are all basically separate sauces that you can make in advance. I mean, then of course the the obvious is you know the pan sauce, whatever based on what's in the pan, which is you know, usually some form of deglazing. So it all it all depends on kind of like uh building up building up your your repertoire.
+
+[36:37] I would choose a taste flavor that you like. Like if you like an Indian profile, I would get like you know, a couple of the base spices in your kitchen that you need to do it, coriander, cardamom, uh, cumin, you know, things like this, uh, and have them just ready. And then, and then you know, whenever you want to make a sauce, you know, it's it's whatever wherever your heart takes you that night, and you and you you blend it. But it's just having you know, if you if to bait tomatoes your only base to start with now, then you know there's only so far you can go with that. So then you you just you know stock out your pantry and uh get a couple of different get an emulsified sauce in there, like so start building on uh on like Hollandaise slash Bernays base differences, and those are delicious.
+
+[37:12] Everyone likes them. And they're really they're really quite simple. You don't need to have clarified butter. You know, you can uh look up Harold McGee, I think, wrote about it. We and we might have it on the blog, uh very, very fast uh Hollandaise or Bernays or any one of those sauces, and those sauces form a fantastic base for for other things.
+
+[37:29] It's just a question of changing the flavors, and so you can really kind of alleviate boredom by just picking one or two of these sauce families, right, and then working with it from uh from there and really really expand out. And that's how I think all good cooks expand their repertoires by like taking some new basic nugget and then building on it again and again and again through repetition. Is that helpful at all or no? That is. And what do you say using uh frying the herbs before you then um add in the sauce?
+
+[37:56] Uh it depends. So like uh the you know the c the classic, the a lot of the dry spices and things like uh ginger, things like nuts, uh I tend to fry before I add uh the liquids because uh, you know, the I've never done a side by side though. It's interesting, but uh theoretically uh, you know, that's how it's done in those cuisines, and so I just I tend to do it. And uh, you know, they say that it releases the aromas. I don't know if that's actually true.
+
+[38:19] Uh well it probably if there's a high heat involved, it actually does probably do some sort of toasting, frying and changing the uh the base notes that are involved, because I know that for instance, toasted caraway tastes very different from untoasted caraway, not better, not worse, different. Uh and so it's just it tends to be something that I do. I don't ever pre-cook uh green herbs. Uh and you know, uh always like the the dried spices, not dried herbs, more dried spices that you tend to hit. Um, you know, just make sure you don't scorch the garlic, etc.
+
+[38:45] etc. But then throw it all in the blender, brr and it goes. I mean the blender is like you know, especially I have a vita prep at home that'll take a pound of bacon and and uh emulsify it into a sauce, and no one will even know it's there other than the flavor. No one will know from a texture standpoint. So a good blender is a definite sauce maker's friend in the kitchen these days because it definitely saves me a lot of uh a lot of heartache.
+
+[39:03] Um anyway. Yeah. So uh so helpful, thank you. All right, thank you. Uh thanks for the call.
+
+[39:08] All right, now I'm gonna uh blend. No, why don't you just finish the wedding one? You can't get to the chip. I uh watch me. Four minutes?
+
+[39:15] Watch me. Jack, you really're taking a portion of my four minutes to to tell me that I can't answer this question in four minutes. This is the lady who who berates me for my Martha Stewart uh position where I was supposed to do three cocktails and did three quarters of a cocktail. Here we go. Uh all right, listen, I'm gonna think more about your registry problem.
+
+[39:31] A vita prep. Oh, vita pre yeah, but you can't register. Where can you register for a vita prep? If you can find a place here's what I here's what I would want. Get yourself a vita prep, get yourself an immersion circulator, buy your own vacuum machine, or get, you know, a you know a cheap one, whatever.
+
+[39:44] Um obviously if you don't already own a decent set of knives, get have them buy you a good set of pots. For Christ's sakes, get a good set of pots. I mean, I when I registered, I had like a mismatch of different pots, and now I have like kind of the standard uh pots, and even though I got them, you know, 18 years ago, whatever it is, you know, 15 years ago uh when I was registered, I'm still loving them today. They're fine. I have the you know, standard kind of all clads, but definitely hit all those big ticket items uh that yeah, ditch the China and get all that of this.
+
+[40:12] Yeah, forget China. Who wants China? It's gonna break anyway. Get the vita prep, get the immersion circulator, get some decent pots, get some decent knives, right? And then if Nastasha thinks of anything while I'm talking, we'll go for that.
+
+[40:24] Okay, now uh on your fried chicken question, you make fried chicken only about once a month. That's a reasonable amount, although you know you can make it more. Keeping the oil, how do you keep the oil after you're done? Because the oil can be expensive. Is it worthwhile to keep the oil?
+
+[40:29] Okay, listen. The enemies to oil are uh basically oxidation and uh and breakdown when you're cooking and when you're storing. What causes uh that breakdown to happen, first of all, fresh oil is kind of bad anyway. You should always fry a little bit with your oil, it really picks up quick, especially at home because you're probably pretty brutal on the oil. But um uh you know, fresh oil actually isn't the best.
+
+[40:56] Like you want to use it a little bit uh because what happens is the oil breaks down somewhat, and um when it breaks down, it becomes it has more polar uh components, so it actually can attack the food and fry it a lot faster. So a little bit of oil breakdown is actually helpful, but in general, don't worry about your oil being too fresh at home because it ain't gonna be fresh for long. Anyway, so uh uh the main things that are gonna kill your oil is if you're uh overheating it. If you overheat your oil, which you tend to do on not you, but one tends to do on a stove, uh the temperature cycles up and down, up and down and and way high, that's gonna ruin oil very quickly. And and if it gets really dark in color, it's not gonna be worthwhile and you probably won't keep it.
+
+[41:32] The other thing is if you get a lot of uh particles uh floating in the bottom that burn, those will cause uh your oil to go down really fast. And the second is if you're frying a lot of high uh liquid stuff, it stuff sprays out into it or lots of salts, you're gonna notice the oil is gonna start foaming a lot more uh and the oil's gonna go go south fast. So, a lot of how long you can keep the oil is how you treated it when you were frying. We use an oil, if you can go to a commercial supplier and get a five gallon, you know, wherever it is, a 30-pound or five gallon pail of oil, uh the professional fry oil that we use is eight times better than the fry oil you can get uh in a supermarket because it has antioxidants in it, which means the oil is gonna last a lot longer. Okay, that's one.
+
+[42:11] Two, when you store it, you want to let it cool down, and then right away that night you want to uh pour it, uh filter it through first like a strainer and then through uh something finer, like some napkins or cloth, to get all the particles out of it, because those are really going to make your oil turn to crap. Then when you store it, you want to store it uh outside of the light, because if it's stored in the light, you're gonna get more oxidation. So you want to store it in a dark, cool place, you want it to be filtered and you want it to stay, you know, in in a cool area. You want to make sure you don't do too much temple temperature cycling on it. And here is the best way to find out if your oil is uh crappy, right?
+
+[42:46] Take a little bit of your oil, heat it up in a pan, and fry a piece of white bread in it, and then eat the white bread. White bread is extremely neutral, it soaks up a lot of oil, and it's the best way, other than just dipping your finger in and tasting it, to figure out whether you're gonna get any off notes in your fried products from the oil that you're using. And that's my standard technique in the kitchen to determine if an oil has gone too far to keep using, is I do a bread fry test. Alright, now I have 30 seconds. So on the way out, Jarrett called in and or wrote in and he said, Hey, when I make my dashi, right, uh I eat a huge bowl of it, and I get all buzzed, and I have to sit down and watch comedy programs because I get a buzz.
+
+[43:24] Is this from the uh glutamic acid? Uh and uh I don't know whether this key to you know, you know, keys in with uh the kind of pot questions we had before, but I definitely I though you gave us our recipe. I want to know kind of what secret ingredient you're putting in to get buzzed. I've never noticed this. I've never heard uh I couldn't find any reputable cases of uh monosodium glutamate intoxication.
+
+[43:46] But uh the last time I got drunk without drinking was uh an ice cream party at random. I found an ice cream machine. I'll look more, Jared, by the way, if I'm about to go on a tangent on the way out of here. Uh I found an ice cream machine on the side of the street, a soft serve ice cream machine. It was all broken and beat and battered, weighed 900 pounds.
+
+[44:03] I wheeled it into my apartment, wired it into three separate circuits because it took three phase power and it was all demented, finally got it to work. The refrigeration didn't work, so I had to throw dry ice into it, all these nightmare problems. I had a giant soft serve party where I actually went up to the Bronx to Mr. Softy, which is our local ice cream, soft serve ice cream here, and bought a bunch of gallons of uh Mr. Softy ice cream mix and threw the most disgusting party in the world.
+
+[44:26] It was sh all it was was champagne and all you could eat soft serve ice cream out of an ice cream tap, you know, because we had the big soft serve machine with all the toppings. And I didn't even have anything to drink that night, but I must have eaten, I don't know, like a half gallon of ice cream, and I felt completely looped drunk crazy. And so that's the only similar experience I've had to a non-alcohol-based buzz on a food I uh I've done, and it wasn't related to MSG uh or to Dashi. But I definitely want your Dashi recipe if you can get a if you get buzzed off of it, Jared. So I'll look into it some more.
+
+[44:58] And for this week, it's cooking issues. Come back next week, this uh next Tuesday, 12 12 noon.
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area. And we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio. And we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's and their studio because they talk to people who are serious about food. And that's what we are at Fairway, is we're serious about food.
+
+[0:24] We we just care very deeply about you as a as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support Heritage Radio because it it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's that's we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway.
+
+[0:56] And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're gonna find them on Heritage Radio, and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, the show where you call us with all of your cooking related questions, technical or none. I'm Dave Arnold. You're a host of Cooking Issues uh here with uh Nastasha the Lopez.
+
+[1:33] My brain's a little frazzled because I'm actually here on time today, which doesn't usually happen. So I'm not used to having any time before we go on air, so it's you know a little bit different from normal. But calling all of your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 here on a Sleedy Brooklyn Tuesday. Although it's not as bad as the everyone's supposed to get really bad.
+
+[1:56] Yeah, sure. Yeah, I was. I don't believe that. Yeah, I don't believe it. Yeah, it's it's uh it's a load a load of malarkey, right?
+
+[2:01] Mm-hmm. All right. Uh did I already give the number? Yes. I did, I did give the number.
+
+[1:59] Okay. So we have a question uh from Paul. Uh Paul writes in, Hi Dave. My one-year-old kids love eating with uh their hands. Who doesn't like you know, my nine year old after breaking them with eating with his hands, I'm like, this one's a hand, this one's a four.
+
+[2:19] Oh, really? Oh, he's nine. Yeah, my oldest one. I have a nine and a six. Anyway.
+
+[2:22] Uh my one-year-old kids love eating uh with their hands and uh jello jelly or jello to us Americans uh is a particular favorite. I don't want to give them too much sugar, so I wanted to turn fruit juice into jelly using gelatin. Uh we get locally produced orange juice delivered weekly, so that seemed like a good start. I used 1.7% fish gelatin. This is the key here, fish gelatin, um, which is should be more than enough to set, by the way.
+
+[2:43] And then uh letting the granules bloom in one third of the juice, heating the other two thirds to boiling, mixing the two parts and stirring until dissolved. It's only been in the fridge three hours now, but I'm not convinced it's going to solidify. Do you have any tips? I'd prefer to stick with fish gelatin if possible. Okay, a couple of things.
+
+[2:56] One, I don't think you need to boil uh all of it. I think you could probably um I think you could probably, you know, do it in a s in a in a smaller amount because uh I think you're gonna be altering the flavor of the juice by boiling um boiling so much of it. Um I think the main issue you're having here is with the fish gelatin. Fish gelatin, I think we spoke about gelatin a bit last week, right? Or the week before.
+
+[3:15] Yeah. Uh fish gelatin uh usually uh isn't as strong as uh regular gelatin. It's a lot lighter of a jelly, uh, you know, on a on a per weight basis. Also, fish gelatin tends to set at a uh much lower temperature than regular gelatin. So uh it is gonna take uh quite a bit longer um uh to cool off and set in your fridge.
+
+[3:35] So it might be that you just need to uh wait longer because your percentages should be enough. It's never probably gonna get as hard as a regular gelatin. The other problem with fish gelatin is I don't know what brand you're using, but unlike um beef gelatin or uh pig-derived gelatin, uh fish gelatin is extremely variable in terms of its qualities. So for instance, like a uh cold water fish gelatin, it sets at a ridiculously low temperature. It's like you know, it's not really I mean, I don't know.
+
+[4:00] I don't have that much experience with it, but from what I read, fish cold water fish gelatin is tough to work with. So you're probably using a warmer water fish gelatin. Um fish gelatin is also more sensitive to acid than um some of the other gelatins we use, but it shouldn't be an issue with orange juice, because orange juice isn't that uh acidic. So I would just say uh wait longer, or perhaps you might think of moving to a different product other than gelatin. So you could use uh a gel if if I don't know why you want to use fish gelatin, whether it's because you're worried about uh whether it's because you don't eat red meat or whether it's because you're worried about maybe BSE in a in a in a in a beef gelatin.
+
+[4:32] BSC is bun uh bovine spongiform encephalopathy for all of you people. Although they ha they've done research where they they've taken, and I used to not eat gelatin actually for a while because I was a little paranoid way back in the day about mad cow, that's what bovine spongiform encephalopathy is, uh or Jakob's Kreuzfeld uh new variant, whatever, BSE. So the um so uh what what what I would do is um what I mean what they did, they did a study where they they took a cow, they injected its brain with uh mad cow, right, and then they turned it into gelatin, and then they were testing to see whether they could get any prions, because it's a prion-based disease out of the gelatin, and uh they couldn't. Um trust that or don't trust that uh as the case may be because it was paid for by the gelatin people. But um the so anyway, so I don't know why you want to use fish gelatin specifically.
+
+[5:17] Um if it's because uh of the red meat issue, you might want to switch away from fish gelatin and go to an entirely uh vegetable-based product, seaweed-based, in which case I would use uh a mixture of kappa carrageenin uh and locust bean gum, which is a commercially available uh gelatin replacer. It has the advantage of setting much faster. Uh, has a texture fairly similar to gelatin, although it doesn't melt in your mouth the same way gelatin does, because let's face it, nothing does. Uh but if you're just making jellies, it should work for you. Um you can get that from uh CP Kelco, uh, but I you know I don't know that there's some couple names in the uh supermarket that you can get that work.
+
+[5:53] I think maybe some of the kosher gelatins are actually carragenin-based. So you might want to uh move to that uh if you want to. Uh also I was researching this and I found out something interesting I did not know. And that is uh people have made a uh microbial based gelatin now. So there's now certain strains of yeast and bacteria that can produce gelatin.
+
+[6:11] Now they're not commercially available yet, but this could open the door to a completely vegetarian, like actual straight up gelatin being produced down the road. So uh we'll all be looking forward to to that, right, Nastasha? Right, yeah. Okay. Uh so we have a caller.
+
+[6:24] Caller, you are on the air. Hi, thanks for taking my call. Um, I have a question about the perfect chocolate chip cookie. Uh my perfect chocolate chip cookie is kind of on the thicker side, it'd be a little bit chewy. I know some people like it thin and crispy, but you know, I I go for the thick and chewy.
+
+[6:42] Right. And uh I was wondering if hot hydrocolloids could help me perfect the chocolate chip cookie that I'm looking for. All right. Well, this is an excellent question. And uh first of all, I like the way you're phrasing the question in that you say you say my perfect chocolate chip cookie.
+
+[6:56] So, one of my problems with a lot of recipes that people give is they'll say the perfect chocolate chip cookie, and there is no such thing as the perfect chocolate chip cookie. Um so you want it a little bit thicker. What problem are you having now? Like what what how how is it that you're doing it now? How are they coming out, and then how do you hope hydrocolloids will help you?
+
+[7:12] Um, I also like uh kind of a really buttery taste, so I think maybe uh I'm using a lot of butter and they come out thick, but they're not very chewy. They they have a rich buttery taste, but they're very soft. And uh I've never cooked with he hydrocolloids and you know, so I don't really have any experience with them, but I hear you talk about them a lot. I was just wondering if maybe I should try that. Okay.
+
+[7:36] Well, here's here's some uh some pointers with it. Um the butter, I'm surprised that they still stay thick with a lot of butter unless you reduce the sugar content on them because the butter should help the spread more. They should spread more with a higher butter content. Uh but I could be wrong because it's been a while since I've read there's a book out there that you can get online uh called uh uh crackers and cookies, uh cracker and cookie technology, but it's been about eight years since I've read it, so I'm a little behind uh in my in my reading, but let's let's go ahead with it. Now, there's um there's a group of people who uh their feeling is it's possible to make the perfect X, Y, or Z in chocolate chip cookie is usually one of them without using anything other than the traditional ingredients.
+
+[8:16] Uh and those people are against using things like hydrocolloids in a chocolate chip cookie just because they say it's not necessary. These are the same people who say don't use anything fancy in your tempura batters because the top end Japanese chefs don't use them. Now I don't I don't necessarily believe that. I'm just mentioning that off the you know off the top. Um but it sounds like what you want is something that's gonna reduce spread during um reduce spread during baking, am I right?
+
+[8:39] Keep it thicker? Yeah. Right. Yeah, keep it thicker, not necessarily like a cakey texture. I've I've had some turnout where they're really thick but they're kind of cakey, and I that wasn't really what I was going for either.
+
+[8:52] Right. Uh well I would you I would try um I mean, so for instance, off the top of my head, and any sort of the any sort of the uh uh products that add viscosity to the to this stuff would increase um would increase you know decrease the spread. The problem is is that um there's not much of a water phase in uh chocolate chip cookies, right? And so to you to use a hydrocolloid uh sorry, to use a hydrocolloid accurately, you're gonna need to uh have something that you can put into the water phase. So if you look at if you look at um basically scanning electron uh microscopy pictures of uh starch granules in uh cookie systems after they've been cooked, you'll see that a lot of the starch granules are still pretty much un uh un messed with, and that's because there's not enough water present in the system, even at the high oven temperatures to really make them fully swell and break.
+
+[9:42] So it you you you're basically gonna need to find something that can cause a thickening uh action in you know in an extremely low water situation because basically what do you have in there that's liquid? Probably just the egg, right? Yeah. Right. So um I mean w one thing you could do, I mean the th the the pr this is the problem with hydrocolloids in cookies.
+
+[10:00] Now I'm not saying it can't be done, but like you could, for instance, clarify the butter, add the twenty percent water back as butter with a hydrocolloid in it, in which case I would use something like Xanthan gum, or perhaps something like methyl cellulose, right? Uh or you know, it's gonna be hard to hydrate a hydrocolloid into the egg, although you could. Right. In which case I would use something like Xanthan, uh, which you know has a what's called a yield point, so it basically but it's not gonna really affect the cookie when it's done because um you know you just won't taste it when you're chewing on the on the on the cookie, but it should, you know, decrease the spread a little bit. Um but y you know the spread in cookies is something that has been studied quite quite a lot.
+
+[10:39] Um and so you can usually decrease the spread by adjusting the butter sugar uh ratio, right because both of those things as they heat are going to tend to increase spread. So increase sugar recipes increase the spread and uh increase butter I think should probably increase the spread. Increase whereas increased flour decreases the spread but increases cakiness, right? Especially especially when combined with uh leaveners. So um could is there a leavener in your recipe?
+
+[11:04] Right? There is, right? Yeah there is. Right. So if you so aside from just using hydrocolloids, if you wanted to decrease cakiness, when you when they do an increase flour they probably also increase the leavener.
+
+[11:16] You could go the other way and decrease the leavener a little bit and that might help. I don't know. You know also adjusting oven temperature can adjust the spread as it goes and the temperature of the batter as it goes in can adjust the spread somewhat. So you might want to go in with a very very cold a cold battery like drop them real cold, throw them in the oven you know and then set it before they spread. But it it should be possible I don't think you're going to get that much of a result out of uh out of hydrocolloids unless they are uh unless they are you kind of pre-functionalized.
+
+[11:44] But I could be totally wrong about this because you know I've never tried it. But things like Xanthan, things um like methyl methyl cellulose I mentioned that one right because methellulose has the the property that it gels when it gets hot. So if you can get the methylcellulose to get into the egg white or the egg somehow when it heats up it the methyl cell will set and actually form a gel and prevent spread but then when the cookie cools off again the cookie uh the methyl cell will go back to its normal non gelling form. So that you know that could that could be interesting. Um and it might actually be interesting you can add that you could probably add a little bit of extra water phase uh that the cookie doesn't call for because it's not going to increase the spread a little bit and might make it might make it chewyer.
+
+[12:22] I'm not I'm not sure. I have not tested it. Uh but Yeah, that that was my next question. Could I mix the uh hydrocolloid with a little bit of water pre incorporating it into the batter and then uh see what that does. You can, but cookies are such low mean except except for cake style cookies, like for instance like uh a traditional New York black and white cookie or things like that that have like a lot of water because a black and white cookie is essentially a cake that's made uh flat, right?
+
+[12:49] And so we all know what those cakey cookies are like, but in general, like a traditional cookie like we're talking about, very low water formulation. You know what I mean? Basically just the w water from the eggs and the roughly twenty percent by weight water that the butter is that you put into it, you know. Um now again it i it would be possible to to do it, it would take a lot of uh take a lot of dorking uh with but um i it's a problem I actually haven't thought about, but it is very interesting. And I'd appreciate it if if you ran some tests or uh that you uh kind of got back to us about what the results were.
+
+[13:23] Great. I'll do that. Thank you very much for your help. All right, no problem. Good luck.
+
+[13:28] All right. What did you say, Nastasha? Yeah, one minute. We have uh Nastash. This is why they call the hammer.
+
+[13:33] She's supposed to be the hammer on other people, but she ends up just basically like people. What? What do you mean? No, Nastashia likes just to be the hammer on me instead of on instead of on like she's supposed to be like Nastash is supposed to be like my personal hammer, like someone comes, gives me the beat down. And you flip me off.
+
+[13:53] That's this is this is an exaggeration. This is this is an exaggeration. Ex I would like to say this is exaggeration. Alright, so next week, uh actually, will I be here on Tuesday? Yeah, okay.
+
+[14:05] So I'm gonna right after the radio show next week, I'm flying out to Florida, and it's the first time I'm extremely excited. I'm going to the North American Food equipment manufacturer Show in Orlando. I was gonna have my wife and kids fly down so that we could do the whole Disney World thing, but my wife had a project come up, so she can't do it, which is unfortunate because my kids never been to Disney World. Uh anyway, uh that's aside the point. But uh, not next week, but the week after, I will regale you all with uh stories of the latest greatest developments in North American food equipment manufacturing.
+
+[14:34] Which listen, Nastasha's laughing because to her this sounds boring, but there's nothing I enjoy more than looking at new equipment. Seriously, like walking around, and I usually go to the uh National Restaurant Association show that with the NRA, everyone's like that NRA? I'm like, no, the other NRA in Chicago every year, and um they have some equipment there, but this is apparently like the great the great grandma of all equipment shows in the US. So I'm gonna go down and uh I'm gonna report back on what I think the future of uh restaurant food equipment is gonna be as according to the restaurant uh social if I get to actually walk the show at all, because Nils and I are going down there to uh shill out basically for the unified brands uh who make a piece of equipment that we use at the school called um the Randall the Randall FX. It's a pretty cool uh fridge.
+
+[15:16] Anyway, so we're going down there, and so Nils and I have to do a dog and pony uh like every hour on the hour for a couple of days uh uh talking about the merits of accurate refrigeration. So uh anyway, I'm excited uh next week to go out and we'll give you the report uh when I get back. Right now we're gonna go to our first commercial break. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How are you feeling, bro?
+
+[15:38] Feeling good. You feel good? Thanks so much, Bone Brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right.
+
+[15:46] I don't want to know if people don't know you in, yeah. How you feel, fellas? Sure gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[16:09] We're gonna have a bump good time. Gotta take you high. Alright. Yeah, let's go on. Gotta take the high.
+
+[16:36] Yeah. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two cores. And then I wanna wave in. Let's go into it.
+
+[16:43] Now alright. All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all of your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[16:56] That's 718-497-2128. They don't have to be cooking, actually, it can be alcohol related. Yeah. Yeah, it can be alcohol related. Uh what?
+
+[17:04] Like making alcohol stuff. Well, yeah. Making drinking, like tips on drinking or making making alcohol, making drinks with alcohol. Uh okay, we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[17:15] Hi, Dave. Quick question. Sure. Um, I noticed when you pour champagne into an empty glass, the the uh effervescence is pretty quick and it you know, it bubbles over if you don't pour carefully. But if you got another liquid in there, like say like orange juice for a mimosa or something, you can pour it a lot faster.
+
+[17:31] Is that like a lack of nucleation sites, or is the carbonation getting diluted, or something? I think probably I think probably both. I mean, certain things that you pour into cause an instant foaming because they have uh foam forming abilities. So, for instance, like you'll notice if you squeeze a lime into uh into uh drink and then pour it with celsier, you get that big scum of bubbles on the top of it, right? Yeah.
+
+[17:52] But you're not gonna necessarily get the the little bubbles, but actually you will because they're gonna nucleate off the off of the off the thing. So the the first pro problem you're gonna have not problem, but the first issue you're gonna deal with is like what is the actual uh what are the properties of the liquid you're pouring into, and are they gonna increase foaming or not? Now there's a difference between fo like foaming, which is the head that's gonna form on the top, and then um actual bubbles that are gonna form in the liquid. So I think you're probably right that um that if you dilute something, you're gonna have less bubbles coming out because the amount of bubbles coming out are related to the a actual percentage dissolved CO2 that are in the in the product, and because you've diluted it down, um you're gonna have less total CO2 per, you know, per gram. And so assuming that your orange juice is cold and everything, um all of a sudden the amount of CO2 coming out is going to be a lot lower than if you poured in straight champagne, right?
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+[18:43] Ah so uh I mean there's that effect, and there's also something you mentioned when you pour it into a uh you know a a new glass, uh new glasses tend to I mean, this is not what you're talking about, but it's what I th where I thought you were gonna go, so I'll talk about it anyway. Is uh, you know, there's uh nucleation sites on glasses in the form of dust specs and uh little imperfections in it. So you actually if you hyperclean, if you pour like uh, you know, uh uh I what I forget what they're called, like sodium dichromate cleaning solution, the stuff we used to use in orgo, you know, to totally to eat anything that's on the inside of the glass and dump it out, you'll get no you'll get no bubbles. And there's uh there's actually a book you might be interested in uh about the it's the science of champagne. It deals a lot with uh bubbles, and it's uh written by a gentleman uh who's a champagne scientist.
+
+[19:23] I I think his last name is uh Belloch. His first name might be Hilaire or something like that, Bellak. It's the science of champagne. It's not that expensive. It's a thin book, and it's written, you know, it's equation free, so you don't have to like beat your head against the wall to get through it.
+
+[19:36] And it's a really interesting study of uh champagne and the physics of champagne and the physics of bubbles. It's definitely a recommended read. Uh I'm pretty sure it's still in print and you can get it, get it through Amazon. I'll caution you though uh everyone always lies about the amount of bubbles that are present in champagne. Like the champagne numbers are always extremely high, and I've never no I've never noticed that they there actually is that much carbonation in a bottle of champagne as the what they quote on in their literature, which is interesting to me.
+
+[20:02] Whereas like American sparklers are often overcarbonated, which is why they I think you tend to lose some of the um you tend to lose some of like the fruit notes and they tend to seem less complex, and I think it's because they're overcarbonated, which is why, by the way, this ties into your question, believe it or not, that um I think that American sparklers are really good choices sometimes for uh like a mimosa things like a mimosa because they'll have more residual CO2 when you water down the uh when you water down your orange juice. Okay. What do you think? Does this make any sense? Yes.
+
+[20:31] All right. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Dave. All right, call uh call in again if you have any more questions, especially on champagne because we love it, right, Nastasha? Yes.
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+[20:37] Yes, all right. Thank you for calling. Um okay, so interesting. Tomorrow, tomorrow, right? No.
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+[20:44] Tomorrow, yeah. Tomorrow we drop off the Martha Fuge. So I think as we talked about uh earlier, right? We talked about this before, right? I was on the Martha Stewart show.
+
+[20:52] Yeah, I'll run through it again. On the Martha Stewart show, Martha Stewart's like I want a centrifuge, but I only want to pay three hundred dollars. It's not how she talks. Anyway, so we found her a centrifuge for three hundred dollars. And uh the uh what was the problem with this one again?
+
+[21:04] It had uh this one was oh brushes, the brushes. Yeah, I needed to replace the brushes on the motor. So I replace the brushes on the motor. Thing works fine. Uh I had to um so yeah, it works works great.
+
+[21:13] In fact, it works better than mine. Works better than mine because mine, the refrigeration unit was broken. And I was secretly I said to Nastasha, I was like, you know, Nastasha, I should give her the one where the refrigerator's broken. But she would have been on you. Well, no, no, no.
+
+[21:27] You were like, come on, it's Martha, give her the good one. What the heck's wrong with you? Right? Pretty much. But you know, that's not how I talk either.
+
+[21:32] Well, well, yeah, well, you you're here to defend your speech. But you know, the so anyway, so I'm sure we've all had this, right? Where you get two things, right, and you already have yours and you buy one for somebody else, and you're like, oh my god, it's better than mine, and there's that moment where you want to switch it out. It's just not happened to you? Yeah, yeah, of course.
+
+[21:48] Anyway, so we're giving her the good one, but it it it it put uh a fire under my butt to go fix uh fix mine. Um so anyway, so I did fix mine, but it was a pain in the butt because to to change out the board, the electronics board, was like a like a thousand dollars to change it. So I just bought uh you can go, you know, it used to be to buy a temperature controller online, like a PID temperature controller that worked, it would cost uh, you know, over a hundred dollars, well over a hundred dollars. Now they're so cheap, there's so many people doing uh DIY, have to do it yourself, uh temperature control stuff that you can buy a temperature controller out there delivered like in two days for like 30 bucks, 30, 40 bucks. So I bought one and uh I just put my own temperature control on my refrigeration unit, and now my refrigeration unit works fine, thank you very much.
+
+[22:29] So it turns out I've now fixed pretty much every part of uh centrifuge. This could be your new job. Or if anyone has a centrifuge that needs to be fixed. Well, you know, I was thinking about this. Um here's what I here's what I was thinking.
+
+[22:40] Oh, first of all, you know, Wiley now finally got a centrifuge. Wiley has a three-liter centrifuge, of course, his is new, fancy fancy, uh three-liter centrifuge. And one of our interns, uh former intern, I guess, although he's still working with us, Piper Christensen, who just got hired at WD. Congratulations, Piper. Uh so uh he's running their centrifuge night and day, and they're they're coming up with some new interesting outcomes.
+
+[23:00] But you know, uh I've been a centrifuge evangelist for a long time now, uh several years probably, and uh I really think people should buy more centrifuges. I really, really do. Um, you know, I I did a bunch of research on it, right? Now I'm not recommending that a restaurant go out and and uh you know buy a hundred dollar centrifuge and have this giant thing sitting in there in their restaurant, and like maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, and who knows what the lifetime of the centrifuge buckets are because I don't know if you guys know centrifuge, by the way, for the people who think what the hell is this guy talking about? Centrifuge, what huh?
+
+[23:30] If you're thinking that, what it is is basically a machine that has a rotor that spins very quickly and uh creates centripetal force, and that um and that actually separates products based on their density. So we use it typically to separate oil from nuts, for instance, or to uh clarify juices, um, and we can do it very fast with very high yields. Um we can also like do nut milks, things like that, get very, very high yields. Um I don't understand how blood came into play or comes into play in a centrifuge. Well, they typically what they'll do is they'll fill the centrifuge tubes with blood, they'll spin it, they'll get the serum on the top and the red blood cells at the bottom when they're running tests and stuff like that.
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+[24:08] Yeah, so when you buy a use centrifuge, you have to assume that it's had really evil, evil, evil stuff in it. And so you have to completely uh, as I said and Ken Kirstenbaum, our friend at uh at uh NYU likes to quote me as bleach the rabies out of it. So you be you bleach the hell out of it and then you and then you uh pressure cook the uh buckets to um to to do it. Anyway, so this this type of centrifuge, three-liter centrifuge, um, you know, although there are perils to buying it used, uh, is extremely good. Uh and so what you can do is um what you what you do is you know you buy it and fix it, but I think restaurants could afford to buy a new one.
+
+[24:42] I looked at it online, and you can get uh very good quality centrifuge for about seven seven thousand five hundred dollars that does everything that ours does minus the refrigeration okay and um and so and and that thing will will pay for itself if you make juices or you're doing things like that the increase in yield off these expensive ingredients is going to pay for itself I don't know why more people aren't uh getting it because it's not like it's it's not some kind of a crazy presentation tool like no one has to know you're doing it's just all of a sudden you have these amazing clear juices like these amazing uh you know nut nut oils everything it's just such a great tool um so what I was thinking is like what if we started a uh well not started a business but what if we said hey listen uh you buy this centrifuge we'll tell you which one to buy and then we'll come in and train you how to use it we'll show up you know you need like you need like some enzymes they don't cost that much the enzymes uh you need like you know a b a bag of and uh you know a bag of enzymes um and pretty much you're ready to rock and roll right yeah that and maybe some of this uh kind of sand well we're doing one of the things we're and a scale scale is like twenty bucks so you know or like you know not not bad uh in fact uh our new intern brooke we were getting a scale from Martha and it was all messed up she cleaned that thing like it was brand freaking new I was like crap now I don't want to give that to Martha either I've never seen someone clean a scale that way you would not believe people you would not believe this I would uh yeah that that scale is that scale was like hospital quality when she was done with it. Did you say we had yeah we have a caller we have a caller caller you are on the air hi Dave. Hi how you doing doing good this is Michael Natkin. How you doing? Doing great sent you a few email questions and uh now I got a chance to catch you live.
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+[26:15] Alright here we go. So what do you what do you what do you got for me? So I got a question about coconut milk. Delicious coconut milk you mean. I love coconut milk.
+
+[26:22] So I've made a lot of really bad Thai curries over the years. And I finally made a good one and I don't really understand why. I'm hoping you can help me figure it out. So I I always ignored the instructions to cook the coconut milk until it separates. Never could really figure out why that was important.
+
+[26:39] And my curries always turned out a little bit gelatinous. It's like I would reduce the milk somewhat but not cook it all that all the way down till it's separated. Right. Um and I would get this sort of gelatinous, unpleasant texture in them. And you know, finally I realized, hey, I'm not following that direction.
+
+[26:54] Because it you know how you follow a recipe, and if you don't know why something's important, you skip it. Exactly. Yeah. So and then I for the other day, you know, I I cooked the curry paste, I cooked the milk down until it's separated, and then I added some more fresh coconut milk to bulk it up before I served it, and it came out great. So so what's going on there?
+
+[27:10] What's that gelatinous texture about? And why does separating it help? That's extremely interesting. So I'm gonna have to think so for those of you out there, uh presumably if you're cooking it till it breaks, you you're making your own coconut milk? No.
+
+[27:23] Okay. Right. So um you should well, try m try making your own, by the way. Have you ever you've made your own ever or no? I never have.
+
+[27:31] Oh my god. You have to try making your own coconut milk. It's okay. It's amazing. It's like fresh coconut milk is a revelation.
+
+[27:37] But here's and this is how it it it goes, talks to what you're what you're what you're talking about. You know, fresh coconut milk, you make it like you would almost any other you know, you grate the coconut and then you you know blend it high speed with hot water and you squeeze it out. Anyway, uh and it's delicious. You love it. But fresh coconut milk, and this is why I'm asking, breaks extraordinarily quickly when you're cooking it.
+
+[27:58] Whereas canned coconut milk, and I don't know why. Uh takes a lot longer to break. You know what I mean? You can boil coconut milk for a good long time th before before she breaks on you. And Nastasha's like, why is it always a she?
+
+[28:12] Anyway, uh so you can you can uh boil it for a long time. So I don't first of all I don't know what it is about the canning process on coconut milk that makes it less sensitive to breaking than um than when you make your own coconut milk. I also have never read the ingredient label on coconut milk to see whether they have some sort of process additive to it when they when they do it. I'm I'm not sure. Um but that but as to exactly what's going on in the milk when it breaks, as opposed to for instance, you know, I can tell you pretty much what's going on in milk milk when it breaks.
+
+[28:40] You know what I mean? I can tell you pretty much I mean uh somewhat what's going on in uh soy milk when it breaks, when it when you curdle it rather. But uh I don't really know what's going on in coconut milk, but it's a very interesting question. And uh shoot, we don't have any of our Thai interns around, right? We could call up uh it's like a good question for Weepop to to hunt down David uh Thompson and see what he says about it.
+
+[29:02] But uh it's an interesting question. Hmm. But it w i uh I wish I had an answer for you off the top of my head. I don't, but I am uh I will research it further. You should do it you should do a secondary test.
+
+[29:12] If you have the time, first of all, we all know, except for Nastasha, everyone in the world thinks that Thai food's delicious, right? So I mean like I think this warrants a side by side. I think this definitely warrants a side by side test to see uh do it do it the same way side by side in a pot, and the only thing checking is the um is the is this breaking thing. Now, could it also be that it was much more reduced and then when you had to add more to bulk it back, you were just adding more coconut solids and flavor or not. Well, you know, definitely I mean I either way I end up with I'm putting in three cans of coconut milk, more or less.
+
+[29:45] Right. So, you know, one way I'm sort of dumping all the three cans in at once and letting it reduce a little bit. Um, the other way I'm cooking one can down till it breaks and then adding the last two right at the end. And the tech, you know, so the total volume is pretty close to the same. Uh but the one, you know, has a beautiful texture with a little bit of oil floating on top, and the other has this sort of horrible, almost like it was gelled with a little bit of auger kind of you know, flying.
+
+[30:10] Right. That's very interesting. I'll definitely do more research. I was gonna see McGee in a couple of weeks and I could talk to him about it because I know he's interested in these kinds of things, but I don't think because he had to cancel the event I was gonna do with him. But uh I'm I'm I'm definitely gonna do more do more research.
+
+[30:26] If you don't hear anything uh from me on it in a in a month within a month or so on the radio, it means that it slipped my mind, and then you should repester us via email. Okay. Uh and but in the meantime, I encourage you to run some more tests and uh because by the way, things do slip my mind all the all the time. But but because I am interested. So I uh but we should we should we should definitely work on it.
+
+[30:46] So run some tests if you can and get back to us if you get some results, and if not, we'll get back to you, all right? Okay, sounds good. All right, talk to you soon. Okay, take care. Okay, we're going to our second commercial break, says Nastasha the Hammer.
+
+[30:57] Uh call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You feel good? So much bone bell. I feel bellow.
+
+[31:22] We're gonna have a bump good tax. We're gonna have a bump good tax. We're gonna have a bump good time. Take them up, Brian. We're gonna have a bump good test.
+
+[31:37] I'll take him up, Brent. Alright. Gotta take a high brother! Now I won't have a body. Let's bread flow about two courses.
+
+[32:06] Coming back at you with cooking issues. Still time to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, we're sitting in front of a Z Z Top uh album, an old Z Z Top album, uh TV Dinners, which has like the old school like Swanson style TV dinner on it. So look up the picture to Z Top's.
+
+[32:24] Oh, isn't that Jack? Jack's heading in front of me. Gorgeous, gorgeous picture of some really poor quality fried chicken, corn, some awful form of brown biscuit, and some horrific mashed potato that's clearly been piped out of a tube. Uh wow, anyway, so grooving on it. Love the Z top.
+
+[32:40] Anyway, so uh we're giving a uh a shout out to uh Andy Melka who uh called in uh a little while ago with a venison question, or do I don't know if you remember the email and uh then in fact cooked uh the venison with he built he built his own immersion circulator, which we love DIY people and love DIY projects, although we also love that you go to uh Philip Preston and buy his uh circulators. But um so Andy Andy Melka, you can look him up on Facebook. He posted some pictures uh and looked at him and Andy that they look pretty dang good. His venison looks pretty good. Although you didn't say in the in the Facebook thing how it tasted.
+
+[33:09] You just have a picture of it. So I'm hoping it tasted as good as it looked. All right. So I want to talk a little bit about uh our fundraiser that we're gonna do on March the 27th. 27th, three days before my 40th birthday, by the way.
+
+[33:23] Oh my god. Yeah, three days before my 40th birthday. Uh we're doing a fundraiser for the Museum of Food and Drink, which is a uh, you know, a uh museum idea I I started, you know, well over five years ago, but then kind of put on the back burner when I took the job at the French culinary because I haven't had time. But the idea is that we want to create a museum, you know, uh of not right away. I mean we're not, you know, we're not, you know, we you know we're grandiose, but not in that way.
+
+[33:44] Uh starting museum on the order of uh, you know, like the natural history museum, food, right? But started small. Uh and you know, Patrick here at Heritage uh Heritage Foods and Heritage Radio uh heard about this and we're gonna restart it. We're having a f our first fundraiser, and it's a fundraiser to get you know some money to hire someone to start the administrative process and to actually get the ball rolling to get the actual thing rolling. Uh and the fundraiser is looking pretty awesome.
+
+[34:08] So it's on March 27th at Del Posto. It's a Sunday. Sunday in the afternoon. It's you know, what's what how much is it gonna cost? 250.
+
+[34:16] That's not the point. The point the point is, right? 200 people, 250 dollars. Museum of food. Anyway, so uh but check out the check out the group of people that so far have agreed to participate, right?
+
+[34:25] So we have Audrey Saunders from Pegu Club is gonna be doing drinks, and everyone's gonna have a theme. So I don't have a theme for Audrey yet. What food th uh history theme? Something that relates to the museum. So the museum, which so that either means personalized.
+
+[34:37] Yeah, technology of food, history of food, culture of food, right? And it's personalized to the person. So I haven't figured out what I want to do for Audrey, but she's in. Thomas Wall from Death and Co. is in.
+
+[34:46] Maybe since De Death and Co. by the way, which is a fantastic bar here in New York, Death and Co. is uh the name of an artist who used to draw uh uh paintings to guide people to speakeasies back during the prohibition. So maybe they want to do something prohibition based. Yeah, maybe to play on the Death and Co.
+
+[35:00] Alright. Then during the cocktail uh hour, uh Cesare Casella from uh Seller Mario Rossi, and he used to be the Sultan of Beans. What is he now? No, the Emperor of Beans, and now he's a Sultan of Salumi. Yeah.
+
+[35:12] Yeah, anyway. So he's gonna be bringing some Salumi. I don't know how we're gonna theme it up. He's gonna bring salumi no matter what. No matter what.
+
+[35:18] And it's gonna be delicious, salumi, but Chesre's gonna bring Salumi. Well, how the hell are we gonna paste a theme on top of that? Whatever. He's Chesare. He's gonna have rosemary everywhere.
+
+[35:27] Rosemary's gonna be growing out of his ears, sticking out of his hair in the pocket. You know, I love Chesre. Okay. And so then uh on the savory side, we got Mark because it's at Del Posto, so Mark Ladner's gonna be there. I'm giving him Roman, right?
+
+[35:37] So he's gonna do Roman. So he's busting out his old, his apicious because he's got the Apecious books to do Roman cuisine. But what he doesn't have, this sounds like the guy at the end of Wizard of Oz. But what you don't have is uh no is there's a there's a fish sauce, and I think I've mentioned this on the air before, called Ishiri that comes out of Japan that's made from uh squid guts. They have one made from uh I believe mackerel guts.
+
+[35:57] The one I have is squid guts. Uh and what's cool about it is that uh it's a dead ringer for the actual ancient Roman fish sauce, uh the high-end fish sauce that was uh around the time that uh Apecia is coming out that was made entirely out of uh fish guts, right? And this is the Garum Sosharum, this like high-end garum. And uh I had an opportunity to taste some that was made by Sally Granger, who's an apicious expert, Roman expert, and is uh probably finished at this point, but is working on her PhD in Roman fish sauces. So she gave me some of hers to taste.
+
+[36:27] It was three years old, uh two or three years old, and I was like, bang, this stuff tastes like a shiri, which is a very it's a fish sauce, but it doesn't taste anything like a fish sauce. It tastes like fish sauce missed mixed with canned meat, which it's really cool stuff. So anyway, I'm gonna give Mark some of this stuff because it's the closest thing anyone's ever tasted to ancient Roman uh fish sauce that you can actually go out and purchase uh yeah, Ishiri. And there's a bunch of ishiries. There's one in particular that that tastes really good.
+
+[36:52] It comes from the north of Japan from uh what is it from Ishikawa or something like that? I don't know. Alright. So then we got Dave Chang. Dave Chang, I'm either gonna let we're either gonna put him with country ham, because he and I share this as a bond, country ham.
+
+[37:03] We both love country ham. So it's either going to be some sort of country ham theme which fits into the museum. In fact the first exhibit the museum did was a an exhibit on country ham that I put together uh you know six years ago now uh where we tasted a bunch of American hams and we ate them um basically in the style of prosciutto but don't call American ham prosciutto it's its own product please please don't call it prosciutto uh anyway uh or I was thinking kind of a like a pre-red pepper Korean dishes so going back to what uh Korean food might have been like not might have been like what it was like uh before the introduction of all of the ingredients that came from North and South America. So we're talking no peppers, which means no spicy peppers of any kind, uh you know tomato any of that stuff. Uh none of that.
+
+[37:45] So I thought that might be interesting. Can you tell them the joke one that you made for him? Well I was saying you know for those of you Dave Chang is a good friend of mine and you know you know extremely well known chef uh and uh kind famous for having a uh a a you know a little bit of a temper you know Dave's got a little bit of a temper so you know like when he goes ballistic on people in the kitchen they say they've been Chang banged etc. You know so so well known for his temper. So I was saying well he could he could recreate the dinner that Vlad Tepish the impaler gave to uh this group of people that he then locked into a barn and lit the barn on fire and let them all burn to death.
+
+[38:19] But uh I was kidding and Nastasha actually emailed that to him and he was like hell yeah I'll do that. You know? Some sort of like Romanian impaler theme uh dish. Anyway, we got Wiley Dufrein, my brother-in-law from WD50 is going to come in and do something, but I don't know what we're gonna give him yet as the as the as his theme because I don't want to make him just you know, oh, you're gonna do technology. You're Wiley Dufrey, it's gonna be technology, right?
+
+[38:39] We gotta come up with something and eggs is easy because it's his w famously is n his favorite thing is eggs, but um, but everyone does that with him. So I need to give a little more thought to what uh and by the way, this is an invitation to give us themes uh for the museum based. Uh we have uh Nils Norrin, right? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[38:57] Or you know, Nils Norren. Uh he's gonna come in and uh I don't know, should we just do Swedish for him? I don't know. I don't know. No?
+
+[39:07] No. No. Who who else who else has agreed? Uh Carlo has agreed. From Robertus?
+
+[39:12] Yeah, great. So we well, what kind of theme should we give him? So it's gonna be some sort of farm to table thing, right? Hipster. Hip hip wow.
+
+[39:18] You like that? You like that? Calling BS and someone in their own place? Like, wow, he can come out of the kitchen right now and beat us over the head with a lead pipe. What the hell are you doing?
+
+[39:26] So, what are we gonna do? We're gonna do uh what are you gonna like uh farm the table, maybe? Yeah, yeah. Farm the table? I don't know.
+
+[39:33] People give us some suggestions for Christ's sakes. Okay. Uh then uh did Johnny agree yet? Johnny Azzini? I've like Johnny Azzini, I think he's I I'm not sure.
+
+[39:41] I think he might have agreed. I don't know. I don't know what theme I'm gonna give him. Uh uh Christina Tozzi from uh from Milk Bar. I'm thinking cereal.
+
+[39:49] No. Yeah, maybe. I mean, if she wants to. I mean, she's well known for making kind of cereal milk ice creams and things like that. So if she wants to do it, we'll do it.
+
+[39:56] She's doing a dessert. Uh and then uh Brooks from Del Posto is also gonna do it. And I'm thinking giving him Italian Jewish because you know, my family comes from Italian uh ex-Jews who were expelled from uh uh ex-Jews who were sp expelled from uh what's what am I thinking? Spain during the Inquisition and had to go to uh to Italy. They then converted and became lamb butchers.
+
+[40:15] That's the Adenizio family. That's my whole stepfather's family. So and uh there's a lot of really interesting kind of uh Italian desserts of Jewish uh of of Jewish ancestry. So maybe that, maybe something else. I invite you guys to uh call in and uh g give us your uh give us your feedback on that on what on what you think would be good.
+
+[40:32] Okay. Now uh couple things. One, I've was was realized recently that I've taken on some projects that I probably should not have taken on. So I'm gonna tell you the story about projects that you take that are uh mistakes for you to do. So this person came to us and they're saying said, hey, listen, listen, listen.
+
+[40:54] We're launching, we're launching this thing, and we need to come up with a drink, and we want a drink that goes starts out cloudy and then turns clear. So I gave it some thought, right? And I was like, you know, it's very difficult. It's very easy to make a drink that starts out clear and then goes cloudy. That's like the oozio effect.
+
+[41:09] So you have something in a high alcohol, like an oil that's that's uh dissolved in a high alcohol system. You add liquid water to it, and as you add water to it, all of a sudden the oil isn't soluble, and it it basically goes into a suspension, but it does it in such fine droplets that it turns cloudy, right? And so that's oozo, pastis, all of these uh liquors that you uh add water to and they turn cloudy. But that's exactly the opposite of the message that these guys want to portray, right? Yeah.
+
+[41:35] Like, hey, look, we took the it's an information company. Hey, look, we took something that was clear and we obfuscated it, made it cloudy, right? So they don't want they don't want that. So that was out. So then I was trying to do all these experiments of taking something cloudy, a suspension, and then altering its solubility and making it go clear again.
+
+[41:50] So we tested a methyl cell from hot to cold, having it go up, but didn't work. We then used, and I don't want to hear anything about it, we used milk of magnesia, right? Which is a suspension, and then we increased the acidity, so it went from cloudy to clear, and we got it to work, but it didn't taste so fantastic, right? And it also the effect wasn't as dramatic as we wanted. We wanted milk white to water clear, and I could get like somewhat turbid to somewhat less turbid.
+
+[42:21] So then, you know, and and uh and the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm like, I really shouldn't get into this because you know I really don't like presentation tricks anyway. I really like to focus on stuff that makes things taste better, but this person's asking me, and it's kind of an interesting challenge, but it's you know, it's just not not my normal line of work. Like I really don't like problems that are just presentation-based. So then uh, you know, I tell her the problems we're having with the cloudy, the cloudy to clear, and she comes back and she's like, well, also it could be blue because our logo is blue, and I'm like, of course it's freaking blue, like the the the least natural color on earth, blue, right? So I'm like, all right, I'll work on it.
+
+[42:55] And I order some blue corn in, and I'm thinking so much that I'm going to be able to do this with the blue corn that we ordered, right? I ordered a 50-pound sack of blue corn. I'm so confident that I could do it, right? Because I figured that in in Peru they have purple corn, chicha morata, but they have blue corn, I can get it to actually blue, and I'm gonna be able to make a blue corn syrup with it, right? So I call her back, stupid, don't ever do this.
+
+[43:16] I called her back and I said, okay, I can do it. So now I'm locked. Now I'm locked into doing this. So I saw uh basically I say that I'm gonna put uh blue corn syrup, I'm gonna put basically I'm gonna make a uh uh you know a tonic style drink that goes on top of it. We're gonna carbonate, it's gonna mix, it's gonna be blue, we're gonna use liquid nitrogen and chill the glasses, gonna be fantastic, right?
+
+[43:35] Sounds fantastic, right? No, no. Blue corn comes in, it's freaking purple, right? It's freaking purple. There is no real blue stuff.
+
+[43:46] Now, then, you know, so you go do some research, and I should have known I couldn't actually get it blue because all of the blues that we're dealing with are based on a group of dyes, uh, you know, a group of chemicals called anthocyanins, right? And these things are uh they're pH dependent, and that's the problem. And all these drinks are fundamentally acidic, and so all of these anticyanins go red in acidic and they go green in ultra basic and can be made to be blue in the right pH range, but that pH range, that basic pH range is not delicious, right? Is not delicious. So we're using an egg white drink with no acid and and blue corn juice, and we got it kind of blue, tasted me.
+
+[44:23] How bad did that taste and smell? Really bad. And the smell was well, first of all, it's very it's very precisely a specific smell that I cannot describe on air. Uh it's okay, vile. But it's in Russian, so you no one would know.
+
+[44:35] Yeah, right. That's your that's your mom's theory. Uh vile, vile, awful vile, vile stuff, right? Uh so anyway, so then we tried to nictamalize the the corn because that's gonna add some basicity and make it more blue. And by the way, nixtimalized blue corn is a delicious for tortillas, and which you know if you've had a blue corn tortilla, and B looks fantastic, but we couldn't make a good drink out of it.
+
+[44:57] All the drinks look terrible, and then we stu you know you start going crazy and you're like, look, here's what I can't do. I can't use blue curacao. Uh which and because I've insult not insulted, but basically insulted a famous Japanese bartender for using blue curacao because uh not because of the blue food coloring, interestingly, but because the quality of the curacao is terrible, right? And so basically using uh like a uh a small amount of a very low quality ingredient to add just a color effect. And I, you know, I said, why don't you just use food coloring?
+
+[45:26] He's like, Well, that would be too easy. He's like, Well, and then someone else asked, I think I said this before, like, why are you adding why are you adding uh an ingredient that tastes bad? And he's like, Well, I'm only adding a little bit of an ingredient that tastes bad. It's not really acceptable, right? So now I'm I'm I'm now karma came back to bite you.
+
+[45:39] Yeah, wow, he's over at the thing. So basically, so yeah, so I yeah, karma came back to to bite me, and now I'm gonna have to use blue food coloring. I think. I don't know, someone help me here. This is like this is like the worst nightmare in my world.
+
+[45:50] Um I'm I'm doing a presentation trick, right? Which is an awful idea. Uh a presentation trick alone, and I've I'm reduced to using blue food coloring. Uh there's a fantastic, beautiful blue flower out of Thailand that's unavailable, but you know what happens when you add acid to it? Turns red.
+
+[46:07] You know why? Because it's freaking anthocyanin that's making it go. You know what I mean? There's just no real way uh around this problem. I really don't, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but it is a lesson.
+
+[46:17] Do not say yes unless you know you can deliver. And this has been Cooking Issues. Come back at you next week. Uh Cooking Issues.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of ten, when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and the customers at Barterhouse tries to culture and and cultivate, I think are are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take a an allocation of an 80 case made wine that they've got something special and it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in. And you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth degree, like we're not making a hundred thousand cases of Pinot Grigio and you know, flogging them all over New York. But the customers that get wine from us are kind of believing the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young wine makers who have a passion for doing it, and and we supply them with a market and we allow them to get their product out there to otherwise an untapped uh group of people. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:20] I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez joins us via telephone from sunny Florida, where she's driving around in an RV with Piper and Grace, two of our former interns who are spreading the cooking issues love down there in the sunny state. Are you there, Nastasha? Yeah, I'm yeah. Nice, nice.
+
+[1:38] Uh call in all of your questions, cooking related otherwise, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Um little note on the Barter House, the uh sponsor for today. Uh they are our wine sponsors for the Museum of Food and Drink Fundraiser coming up in about a month and a half. And uh listeners to the show might remember that we'd sample some of their wine.
+
+[1:59] Booza, uh Tanat uh based wine on the show a couple months back, and we enjoyed it, right, Nastasha? Yes, we did. Yeah, especially with a name like Boozer. Boozer. All right, get out.
+
+[2:12] Wait, Dave, how can people get tickets to the museum event? I don't know. How do they? Why don't you tell me? Well, first, someone needs to make an invite.
+
+[2:19] All right. What you're hearing here is uh Nastasha insulting me on uh on the radio internet yet. Yeah, calling me out as a very soon you will be able to sign on and get tickets to the event and uh taste some uh museum-themed uh food by the likes of uh Mark Ladner, Wiley Dufresne, uh Dave Chang, uh who else we got? Give us a whole list, Nastasha. Nel Norrin, Carlo from Roberta's, um Brooks from Del Posto, Christina Tozzi, etc.
+
+[2:53] etc. Yeah, exactly. And and and a host of amazing bartenders like uh we have Audrey Saunders, we have uh uh Thomas uh Waugh from Death and Co. Uh who else we have? We have uh Simon Ford from Prince Ricard.
+
+[3:05] Who else we got? We got more people. It's we're thinking about Dale deGroff. There's a lot of people that are i i it's it's gonna be good. Let me just put it this way.
+
+[3:12] Uh uh, we beat all of our friends over the head with sticks, and they're gonna come in and make some delicious products. So we hope you we hope you come. And the date on that is gonna be Sunday, March 27th. It's gonna be in the afternoon, so we're gonna get your drink on early in the day for a very good cause. Uh okay.
+
+[3:27] It is an invite. What? Oh, come on, come on. People, people, please. Is it all right she calls me out once, twice?
+
+[3:34] You need to call me out twice. All right, go on, Dave. Go on with the show. Alright, how was the drink that you guys made in uh in Nastasha? Uh viewers from or listeners from last week will remember that I had to basically become a hypocrite and sell my soul to the devil and create a blue drink with blue food coloring.
+
+[3:47] How did it come out? It wasn't your best. It was good. People enjoyed it. Yeah, people enjoyed it.
+
+[3:55] Very good, very good. All right. So uh Dorothy from Heath Glenn Organic Farm and Kitchen, I believe in Minnesota, although I don't know, writes in and said, Oh, it says here, Minnesota. I'm a preserve maker in Minnesota, and I've been working with oils and spices, trying to infuse aroma into the jams and jellies upon completion. Of course, the aroma of the fruit and spices and oils is wonderful as they are warm and cooking, but it is mostly lost when cooled and gelled.
+
+[4:16] I've tried infusing the jams at different stages of cooking, and have pounded woody herbs to release oils, use commercial aromatic oils, etc. Most of the aroma is lost after they've come to room temperature, however. Any comments or suggestions? Well, uh, a couple of things. Uh we have to figure out whether you're losing the aroma because one, the aroma is flashing off uh into the air.
+
+[4:38] I doubt that's the case because uh you're cooking and probably sealing it uh to to can it, I would presume. Uh so I wouldn't think they're flashing off. I also wouldn't think they're necessarily being destroyed by the heat uh during the uh during the process of making the the jams or jellies. Uh I would guess the two main culprits are uh as it gels, uh more of the aroma is locked in, and so you're losing some simply based on gel strength. And the second thing I'm I'm thinking is that these aromas probably are a lot less volatile at room temperature.
+
+[5:09] So what I would do, since the uh pectin is basically uh, you know, it'll it'll it'll melt, but it's not going to totally released when you heat it, I would say heat it and see whether the aroma comes back. It could just be a temperature phenomenon where uh you just need to add more uh of these aromas because they're going to be consumed uh colder, either room temperature or cold out of the fridge. Um so I would think it's probably one of those two things. Either the aromas themselves are being locked up in the pectin network uh as the gels are being uh uh you know, as it's gelling, or two, it's just a temperature-related phenomenon. The temperature-related phenomenon you could actually check quite easily uh just by uh making something and not adding a sufficient uh acid or sugar content for the product to gel and just adding it uh, you know, for the for the aroma, waiting for it to cool but not gel, and see whether or not the aroma is still there.
+
+[5:55] That'd be a good uh first test. But uh get back to us with more uh details about uh the procedure and everything like that, and we'll try to work on it. Um I was hoping to have Harold McGee call in today, but uh he can't, unfortunately. That would have been a great question for him. That's right up uh Harold's alley, right, Stasi?
+
+[6:13] Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and uh another follow-up, I believe on last week's uh show, uh someone called in and their question was they wanted to make cookies, but they didn't want them, they wanted them relatively thick uh without spreading out too much, but they didn't want them to become cakey. And uh I had a and they asked whether they could use hydrocolloids. I had a couple of half-baked suggestions.
+
+[6:33] Uh I then uh last week uh we spoke to Christina Toze from uh Milk Bar, who's also doing a dessert at the museum event, by the way. Uh and so Tozy and I were talking, and she actually uh says that you can add Xanthan gum, which you can buy at Whole Foods. You can just go into Whole Foods and and buy it, say whate whatever his name is, not Red Rover like Bob Red Mill, something like that, uh bag of Xanthan gum, and uh add some, I don't know percentages. I would add probably on the order of a half a percent by weight of the flour basis or something like this. I don't know.
+
+[7:06] Uh and she said actually it does help limit spread. But the most interesting thing she said was try using high protein flour in your cookies, uh bread flour or or similar. And and basically she said, look, it will stop this, it will stop the spread and keep it thicker, but as long as you don't uh increase the leaveners, it's not gonna make it cakey. And because there's so much fat in the cookie recipe, butter in the cookie recipe, you're not gonna get significant gluten formation, even though you're using a high protein flour. So it's not gonna make it uh uh chewy in a bad sense in a proteiny way, but will limit spread and it's an easy way without changing a lot of your formulation.
+
+[7:44] Uh anyway, so I thought that was interesting and a good follow-up. I can at least pretend like we follow up on some of this stuff, right, Nastasha? That's right, yeah. Uh okay. Uh Joseph writes in and says, uh, I've been listening to your show for a long time and I love it.
+
+[7:58] Well, thank you, Joseph. And he has a question regarding ISI or EC. Nastasha, what's the current thing they like? Do they like ISI? EC.
+
+[8:05] EC? All right. So uh EC, they're the uh the good folks from Austria that uh make uh seltzer makers, the twist and sparkle machine, you know, uh seltzer making machine, uh they make uh whipped cream uh chargers, etc. etc. whipped cream siphons.
+
+[8:20] Uh and uh we use it a lot to uh do uh rapid infusions using nitrous and you can look on www.cookingissues.com for more on that. Uh but uh Joseph wants to know he's interested in the thermal whipper so we can create hot or cold foams and was wondering what my recommendations are. Okay. So the thermal whip uh whippers are different from the normal uh EC whippers, and they're basically just whipped cream makers, and that the thermal whip is insulated like a thermos. All right.
+
+[8:50] Alright? Now, the the good thing about the thermo whip is if you fill the thermal whip with hot water, really hot water, and then dump it out, and then put a hot product in to do a foam, it stays hot for a long time. Similarly, if you want a something cold, if you put ice water into the thermo whip and chill out the inside and then dump it out and put a cold product in, it stays cold for a long time. So it's it acts like a thermos and like a cream whipper to do sauces, creams, or if you want to keep whipped cream out on the counter for a long time in a coffee shop scenario, something like this, it's going to keep the quality high because the temperature is not going to change too much. Right?
+
+[9:26] Now, the downside of the thermal whipper is that even though it looks relatively big, it holds a relatively small amount of product, right? Because there's so much space for the insulation around. It's also very expensive compared to a normal cream whipper. So you're dealing with a lot more money for a smaller volume of product that you can put in the whipper at any one time. So in fact, it looks like a one-liter whipper, but it actually has the capacity of a half-liter whipper.
+
+[9:52] Now, uh, I mean, and that's not a foreign or against. I'm just telling you like what the what the reality is of it. Now, the the other thing about it is is that if you are working in a kitchen, right, so you could take one that's not a thermal whip and you could either store it in the fridge or you could store it in a hot water bath to keep it hot for service. Now it's much more convenient, right, to be able to just put a hot thing and have it stay hot or a cold thing and have it stay cold, but you're going to be paying for that luxury by uh, you know, with with reduced capacity, which actually isn't bad if you're only making a small amount. You don't want to put a small amount of stuff into a big whipper, so it can actually help if you're dealing with small quantities, but you're gonna have a s a smaller quantity and and a higher cost.
+
+[10:35] Now uh it's just something you have to to weigh out. There's nothing that there's nothing that the thermal whip uh will do for you that the other ones can't do. They just make it easier to maintain temperature. All right, Joseph. So I hope uh hope that answers your question.
+
+[10:44] Hope you decide uh which one you want to buy. Of course, we at the uh cooking issues, fans of the uh of the EC folks, right, Nastasha? Yes. Yes, yes, that's what I thought. Um by the way, we still can get calls even though you're on the phone with us, right?
+
+[11:02] I think Yeah, don't worry. I would never block that. Oh my god, I would never block that. I like that. Like we have so many people pounding on our doors with calls.
+
+[11:08] But let me tell you, since we're about to go to our first commercial break, uh, I would like to hear some callers at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Oh, how you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good?
+
+[11:33] Thanks so much, Bone Brother. How you feel, mate? I'll feel all right. How you feel, fella? Sure getting down.
+
+[11:48] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a phone. Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[12:03] Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Um here for another half hour or so. And of course, Nastasha's hanging out in Florida driving an RV up and down the coast. So she had to stop the RV so that she could call in.
+
+[12:19] How's how's the driving going, Nastasha? Uh, we actually just picked it up and I'm in the RV shop. You're you're actually in the shop. So you're I'm in the shop. So you're staring at at the RV.
+
+[12:29] Is it a sweet ride? Yeah, it's pretty sweet. Mm-hmm. What does it get like half a mile to the gallon? What does that thing get?
+
+[12:35] About that, yeah. Yeah, and you're packing how many people into that? Five. Five people into an RV? Awesome.
+
+[12:41] So is is uh our Piper and Grace giving you the uh giving you the the hairy squint to get the hell uh uh off the radio and into the no I'm the one who's who's been uh pushing everyone to go go go. So I made them all go get food and gas while I'm gonna that sounds like you. That's why you're the hammer. Okay. Uh we had someone call in, actually with some uh write-in rather, with some comments on uh our sponsors and my relative either uh enthusiasm or lack thereof for them.
+
+[13:08] And so I thought I'd share uh some some feelings and you know, maybe make a uh an apology to uh to one. But uh uh a while back we have a sponsor, I think they're still a sponsor, 360 cookware. They don't have me read that one anymore. But basically it's a it's a line of cookware that uh that claims to use a steam technology to enhance the speed at which food is cooked, and also uh I don't know, lock lock in nutrients or something like that. And uh I I was told that I was kind of rude and insulting to them on the air.
+
+[13:36] In fact, Nastasha told me that afterwards, and then I kind of tried to make up for it the week after. But I just want to say a little bit about what happened with that. Here's the deal, right? So my whole life is based around uh food and food equipment and and things like that. And so I always take with a huge grain of salt any sort of claim made by any sort of corporation that anything can do anything uh outside of my realm realm of normal experience.
+
+[13:59] And the problem isn't that I the problem is basically is that I I read the I read the sponsorship thing without uh actually ha ever having evaluated the the equipment, and so it's hard for it's hard for someone like me to straight read something that somebody claims is true, have it come out of my mouth without me being able to verify or no, and and I'm also inherently skeptical of any claims, right? So you know it it seems that and that's probably why they don't have me read these things anymore. But uh but uh but I don't it it it doesn't it doesn't like reflect on anything um I I know about that company it reflects on my on my lack of knowledge and it's just it's hard for me sometimes if I get caught off guard and I don't have the the time or the resources to do uh the proper research, it's hard for me to to say to say something uh either good or bad, and so it can come off as snarky, so I apologize. But that same uh reader um uh heard uh we we have a sponsor here, Sam Edwards, and actually was Sam Edwards our sponsor, no Butterhouse was our sponsor today. Uh Sam Edwards uh from uh S.
+
+[15:02] Wallace Edward Edwards and Son Ham. Uh you know, I've known him for a long time. He makes delicious uh ham products, and this reader actually remembered that and went back and tried the actual ham, the Suriano ham, uh that there was being sold at Murray's cheese on his way through Grand Central, and indeed thought it was a delicious ham. So people, I do not steer you wrong. Uh also I wish it wasn't called Suriano ham.
+
+[15:24] I wish it was just called delicious uh Virginia ham from the S. Wallace Edwards and Company, but that's another story that I've already uh gone through. Right, Nastasha? Yeah? That is right, yeah.
+
+[15:33] Yeah. So anyway, uh so I th and seriously, I think that's why they don't have me read these things anymore. I mean, I I don't know. Yeah, I think that's it, Dave. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:43] I'm not a bad I'm not a bad guy. It's just if you catch me when I'm not, you know, when I don't know what's gonna go on, it's just you know, you I never know what even I I don't know what I'm gonna say, you know? Anyway, yeah. Okay. So uh we had a question uh about the Martha Centerfuge story that we talked about, uh Martha, Martha Stewart centerfuge story.
+
+[16:00] Uh it's not like it's not like Oprah where you you know if you say Martha and you're talking people know what you're talking about, then obviously you can just say Martha, but it's you know there are a bunch of Martha's in the world, whereas there's only one Oprah. Anyway, uh I like the Martha Stewart centrifuge story. And by the way, uh Martha Stewart last week canceled on us because of uh inclement weather, and so Martha Stewart's uh centrifuge is still chilling at the uh at the French Culinary Institute, it's being moved from hallway to hallway because it has no has no home. So uh do you know when we're scheduled to do that again, Nastasha? She hasn't gotten back to me.
+
+[16:32] And I sent her the videos of the uh coconut and carrot, yeah. One centrifuge, centrifuge for sale, right? It's like like the old like we have just a centrifuge floating around. Anyway, uh so uh uh they he liked the story, and he'd like to see he sent us an eBay link to another centrifuge asking whether we could fix it up and give it to Oprah. And it was hilarious.
+
+[16:53] I went to the centrifuge link, and it's an old Clay Adams Junior centrifuge. And the most hilarious uh part about it is that uh, you know, for for those of us uh who enjoy a good natured ribbing of our uh Canadian uh northern neighbors, but the canadi it it meets all Canadian Engineering Standards Association uh warrants. Anyway, it but what it basically is is a motor with uh two test tubes that it swings around in the air, like swinging the test tubes around you know in the air with no kind of with no kind of covering. And it was a whopping on eBay, 159.99, which is preposterous for a centrifuge of that type. I mean, ridiculous.
+
+[17:29] I mean, because it's unit's unusable, basically. It's completely completely dangerous. They still actually make manual centrifuges that are completely open like that, and they come either two or four test tubes and they have a crank on them. And I've considered buying them several times. Kent Kirstenbaum, our buddy from NYU actually enjoys these because they make like you know an awesome kind of pro like helicopter noise and they they look incredibly dangerous, which I assume they are.
+
+[17:53] But they're currently only used really for petroleum and oil analysis because you can take them out in the middle of nowhere and spin samples down to check, you know, I guess oil levels, and there's a certain, you know, uh in in a in a particular sample or or or you can s or solids levels in dirt samples. But unfortunately, unfortunately, and I believe Paul sent us that one, unfortunately, uh they don't achieve G levels high enough for us to uh use them for juice clarification. Uh you know, in the videos that I've shot of the inside of our centrifuge that I have yet to post because I'm a jerk, um 2,000 G's is about the minimum where the stuff starts uh really clarifying at an appreciable rate. But even even at that uh at that thing at 2,000 G's, it looks like it's clarifying, but it doesn't form a pellet in the bottom of the centrifuge uh buckets that's strong enough to be able to really decant it uh properly without without like becoming hazy, resuspending some of the crap. So really you want like three to four thousand G's, which unfortunately these guys won't do.
+
+[18:50] I think they'll do just under about a thousand G's. And the other problem is is that four fifty milliliter test tubes isn't really enough to make uh make uh you know uh fruit juice for your even even two close buddies, much less two hundred close buddies. And so uh, you know, although we've considered buying one for uh demonstration purposes, I don't think I will be and although I mean I don't you don't know, I don't know what Oprah wants to do with a centrifuge. If hey listen, if Oprah wants us to fix up that centrifuge, we'll do it. We'll even make it safe, right?
+
+[19:16] We'll build a box around it, you know, we'll we'll shine it all up. I'll get I'll get our intern Brooke, who's the master cleaner, and she'll make that thing look better than it was new. It'll look like uh I don't know. Anyway, uh it's perfect. But if you really want a dangerous old centrifuge, Paul, may I suggest that you go for the Sorval, or as they were known before they changed their name to Sorval, the Serval SS1 super speed aluminum centrifuge, which is basically just a uh an eight position uh uh you know 50 mil rotor, uh aluminum rotor, like from the 50s.
+
+[19:47] It looks like a Jetson thing on a motor on a stand. And there is little that has scared me more in my food cooking life than firing up the Sorval SS1 dangerfuge and having that thing going at full speed inside in a kitchen. Uh Nastasha, did we ever throw that away or did we save it for sentimental reasons? We gave it to an intern. Really?
+
+[20:07] Who? Piper? Yeah. I don't remember who took it, but someone took it. You know, we had to give it away because my in uh my inherent problem is is that if I own it, I will be tempted to run it for some reason or another.
+
+[20:19] Right? And it's it's just a terrible, terrible idea. An awesome, awesome paperweight and a terrible, terrible idea uh to use. All right. So uh Ken uh Ingber uh sent us some questions, and one of them's on ultra pasteurization milk and uh its cheese making properties and its foam making uh properties.
+
+[20:40] Uh and so uh he recently uh was working on making mozzarella uh cheese uh from scratch. Although, you know, most people when they're making mozzarella, especially if you haven't done it before, I recommend buying the curd first and then testing your mozzarella skills on just the uh on the you know on the actual pasta filata part on making the the cheese in the in the hot water. That way you can perfect that that portion of it before you go to the actual part of making the curd. Although we all know that I would also do the same thing and go directly from milk to uh to cheese, and there's no way I would buy my curd. So I I obviously think you won't do that, but uh still uh I should just let it say that I rec I should recommend that.
+
+[21:16] Anyway, uh so one instruction everyone gives uh is to avoid ultra pasteurized milk um because uh it they don't form curds properly. And so he's not using ultra-pasteurized milk for uh for that. Uh and but then I went to look it up and see see why it's actually quite interesting. When you uh pasteurize milk, you denature a certain port of the uh of the whey proteins. Uh uh basically I think it's uh beta-alactoglobulin, right?
+
+[21:40] And you as they denature, they have a tendency then to uh to adsorb onto or to complex with uh the casein. And what happens when you're um when you make cheese, when you make curds with uh rennet, which is the qu enzyme that's used to make you know most cheeses, is that uh it basically cleaves off a hydrophilic part of the uh casein, casein micelles, and makes it such that they're more hydrophobic, and because of that, they tend to aggregate together and form a cheese curd, right? Now, if you uh pasteurize your milk too much, too high a temperature or for too long, the denatured whey proteins basically glom onto the casein and present prevent them from uh from forming a good gel from aggregating together and forming a good gel. So ultra-pasteurized milk, where you really can't make a good strong uh good strong curd curd out of it. There's been some studies recently, I didn't get a chance to read it too much though, that that's not the only thing going on because they tried to they basically removed all of the whey proteins from milk, so it was just basically a casein suspension.
+
+[22:42] Then they heated that and they still had uh problems uh with uh getting it to aggregate properly if it had been cooked to higher temperatures. So there's actually more more than one thing uh going going on with it. Uh but a lot of people uh have been there's a couple bunch of reasons why you'd want to pasteurize to uh a higher temperature. One is because uh certain cheeses have uh infection with uh clostridium tyroabutyricum which I've sure I've pronounced in incorrectly but it makes butyric acid later on in the cheese ripening and can make it smell I don't know what's a good word vomit like vomit. And so they try to kill that with ultra high temperature pasteurization but it really stops the cheese from ripening properly later in the uh in the process because it also destroys some native uh milk enzymes that are needed uh for the protein ripening uh further down the line so there that you know that's what I spent my morning reading about that that kind of stuff but he actually wasn't interested necessarily in making cheese but in whether or not ultra pasteurized milk is going to make a difference in frothing for cappuccinos.
+
+[23:39] And uh I don't know. I assume it would because uh the protein in milk is one of the things that's helping form a stable uh milk foam when you're when you're frothing cappuccinos. Uh and so I would assume and you know as we all know uh milk loses a lot of its uh well not as we all know if you're a cappuccino head or a milk frothing head you you know most people recommend not taking your milk as you're foaming it uh much above I mean they they don't recommend taking it much above one 140 a lot of the times Fahrenheit really 150 uh in that range otherwise if I don't take it up there my wife thinks the drink is too cold. But uh presumably you're inhibiting the fill uh the the formation of foams with a similar reaction where you're basically uh in in inhibiting the ability of the casein uh to act as a as a as a good uh foam stabilizer. This is my assumption.
+
+[24:27] I don't know. I could be a hundred percent wrong but this is my assumption. So I would assume that ultra high pasteurized uh stuff does not foam as well, although I have not tested it. But what was more interested in is that it turns out that oh, and and he was also asking because he has a little thing called an aerocino. And even though he's the fellow that wrote in about the aero press, apparently the aericino is not related to the aero press.
+
+[24:49] It's a little thing that foams uh foams milk by having a little squiggle doodle. What do you call it? Spring, squiggle doodle, squiggle doodle, what anyway. It uh whips a little spring around and heats the milk to create a foam. And yeah, you know, you can make a good foam uh just by agitation.
+
+[25:04] You don't need an arrow squiggle to do it. You know, when I when I'm you know in the wilds, and by that I mean at my mom's house or at my mother-in-law's house, you know, I always foam uh milk by shoving a whisk into a coffee mug, heating the milk and swirling the whisk back and forth between my hands, uh, you know, spinning it almost like a like a chocolate, like a coffee, a chocolate frother, like a Mexican uh chocolate frother. And it works okay. It doesn't work great. And I think uh, you know, it might be possible to get a decent, and the question for any kind of foam head with coffee is not can you produce bubbles?
+
+[25:35] Because any moron can produce bubbles, it's whether you can produce uh microfoam, right? So like the real coffee heads, if you show them a foam that you made in your cappuccino machine, even if you really like it, right, but it has lots of big bubbles on the top, they're like, that's dishwasher soap, that's crap. You know what I mean? They want like a dense, stable, uh or semi-stable, but very dense kind of microfoam, almost you know, where the bubbles are so small that they're almost you know imperceptible when you look at them. They don't look like a big batch of bubbles, it just looks like a dense uh creamy foam.
+
+[26:05] And that's what they're looking at. And I have my doubts as to whether or not you could use a spring uh to do it, although I'm probably wrong. I'd like to see someone maybe I haven't had time to go on Coffee Geek, which is a great website for you coffee heads uh to go on to, but um I haven't had a chance chance to go on and see whether or not anyone's created a really nice microfoam with one of these little whip doodles. Uh as I just got it Nastasha, you think of a better name than whip doodles. But even more interesting than that is that Ken is an owner of a uh uh of a La Chimboli uh Liberty lever machine, right?
+
+[26:39] Now for those of you out there who don't know about lever pulled espresso or you know, don't drink espresso any. If you don't drink espresso, go out and learn to drink espresso. But if you uh if you like espresso as I do, um, you know, you're gonna at some point spend a lot of time researching lever pulled machines. Now uh I myself am an owner of uh microchimboli, which is a small uh lever, lever operated uh chimboli chimbalies uh an espresso machine manufacturer. But I'm I'm an owner of one.
+
+[27:09] Uh I don't use it anymore because it's a big pain in the rear. But lever pulled espresso machines to my taste make the best espresso that you could possibly have. Now my my relationship to espresso machines goes back to the uh mid to late nineties when I was uh going to uh restaurant auctions in New York City and buying restaurant equipment on the cheap. I realized very early on that you know there's no way I was gonna buy myself a you know a home uh a home espresso machine because you know everyone on the internet, and I was reading the professional, you know, the professional baristas were like, you know, there is no home machine that can make real espresso. And and back in those days, there really wasn't.
+
+[27:44] I mean, there was the uh there was the uh the Ranchillo uh oh man with this Sylvia was I think around at that point, I'm not I think, and people were modifying it, but no one had modified the machines to the level that they're modifying now. So really the only uh thing you could do was you could uh get a real commercial espresso machine, which is what I did. And went to an auction, and I believe I said this on the air once before, but I you know i the New York Times has auctions in the back of their or they're used to in the back of the help wanted ads. And uh restaurants are closing all the time here in New York. So I went and this one I was super excited because the restaurant had been shut down because of they had been dealing drugs out of the restaurant.
+
+[28:19] And what that meant was that the whole building had just been padlocked and all the food was still in there, and the stench was enough to like completely like blow your pants off. It was that bad as stench was so awful. And what that meant was is that none of the normal restaurant uh equipment dealers or chefs could stand it, right? Because you know, they had other things to be doing with their lives and dealing with this hard stench for hours. Me, on the other hand, as a just ex-grad student with about two nickels in my pocket and desire, you know, desiring a professional espresso machine that cost thousands and thousands of dollars, was like, this is an awesome opportunity.
+
+[28:53] So I stuck around, uh, bought uh uh uh you know a two-head ranchillo commercial espresso machine for like a hundred and change dollars, and paid paid a a literal just got out of Riker's ex-crack dealer crackhead to drive it to drive me with it in his station wagon back to my house, my loft at the time. Realized I didn't I knew so little about espresso machines at the time that I didn't realize that the pump was a super uh important part that was separate, and I accidentally left it in this guy's car, and I had to call him and like go to his to his house and retrieve this pump. But anyway, it got me, launched me on my on my love of espresso. But I became interested in lever machines at the time because it another way to generate really good espresso without having like a big pump, is to just basically use your hands to have uh a piston to force the espresso out because espresso is, as I've said on the show before, not possible at the lower pressures that that people are using. You really want somewhere in the area of about and thirty-five or so, a plus or minus a bunch PSI of pressure pushing uh coffee at a very precise temperature through a compressed coffee puck, you know, in 22 to 28 seconds.
+
+[30:07] That's espresso, right? That's that's it. That's all you got. There is no more. So um, so anywho, so the the lever machines are great, and there's always a fight between true lever heads who say that lever uh lever espresso is better, uh, you know, and the people who use uh the the pumps and say the pumps are better.
+
+[30:23] Uh now uh there's two basic lever styles. The one that everyone gets, the the La Pav the Pavoni la, you know, Europe piccolo, right? That's the clunk one that you see in the stores, it's all shiny chrome. In that one, when you pull down on the piston, you're applying the pressure to the actual uh coffee puck and putting the uh putting the water through. In all commercial espresso machines, and interestingly, in the chimbely micro uh in the microchimbale lever machine, which is a home machine, uh all the commercial ones, your hand when you pull down is engaging a spring, and then when you release it, it's the actual spring that's providing the pressure.
+
+[30:56] And for years, many people wrote in their in their blogs and whatnot that the reason that lever pulled machines were better is because, or different anyway, is because lever pulled machines had a constant pressure, whereas the rotary pump that we use in modern espresso machines is not as even a pressure, right? And that's why they say that that's the difference between the two. So basically, then the difference is in a nutshell that you get more crema in a rotary pump machine, but you get a smoother tasting cup in a lever pull machine. And uh, and I I didn't you know think about this, and then uh you know, well, I did a lot of research on it because uh about four or five years ago I went to the National Restaurant Association show and someone was pulling shots out of a lever pull Vittorio Arduino, which is not you know aesthetically not my style, because it's all you know gussied and horred up with brass and all crap like that. But but this guy pulled two shots, one out of the one out of that and one out of uh uh a La Mart Soca, which is a sweet machine sitting right next to it, and same barista, same beans, and the Arduino blew the Lalmart Soco out of the water.
+
+[31:55] It was one of the best cups of espresso. It was definitely the best cup of espresso I've ever had in Chicago, let's put it that way. But it was one of the better cups of espresso I'd ever had. And uh I I I resolved right there that I was going to figure out uh the lever machine. And here's what it is that makes a lever machine better than a than a pump machine, or to my taste, better.
+
+[32:13] It's not that it's smoother, it's that the pressure changes, right? Because I had been thinking if I was gonna build one of my own, how do I compensate for the fact that a spring is gonna exert more force when it's at uh when it's compressed more? And didn't Stasha get lost off the thing? It's gonna uh exert more force when it's compressed more and less when it's compressed less, right? So uh it's not that the rotary pump is more uh e is less even, it's that the spring pump actually changes its pressure from the beginning of the shot to the end of the shot, which makes for to my taste a smoother, better cup.
+
+[32:43] And so one thing I've been working on for the past couple of years, but uh and I haven't finished building yet, although I have done handmade tests of it, is uh espresso machine where you can adjust the pressure during the shot. And uh it the true story is is that if you manually adjust the pressure from uh from high, right, at the at the initial part of the shot, a little bit over 140, and then drop it down uh towards the end of the shot, you can do a lever pull my shot with a uh a lever pull style shot with a rotary pump. Jack is telling me that we're gonna go to our next commercial break, so call in all of your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. You feel good!
+
+[33:26] So much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I'm feeling all right. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella?
+
+[33:34] Hey Jam! Sure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time.
+
+[33:49] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Ow! Alright. You wanna do it again?
+
+[34:09] Yeah, let's go on there. We gotta take you high. Brother. Yeah. Now I want everybody.
+
+[34:23] Let's bread blow up by two corps. And then I wanna wave in. Let's go and do that. I'm gonna get that bella with a little horn over there. Brad, can you take us higher?
+
+[34:37] Yeah. Take us higher. Brad. Bad! Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[34:49] Calling your questions too. 718-497-218. That's 718-497-2128. Someday we'll play that song long enough to get to the down D funky D part because, you know, it's all about the down D funky D. Uh oh, one more thing interesting is that uh about uh pasteurization, going back to pasteurize ultra-pasteurized milk.
+
+[35:07] Jack says he's not been able to uh ever adequately froth uh ultra-high pasteurized milk, you know, even like the the fancy organic stuff. And the reason, of course, that they ultra high pasteurize that stuff is so that you can increase the shelf life, I guess because they have small distribution runs. But another interesting thing on pasteurization in general is we have a new clarification technique in our centrifuge that I haven't uh written about yet, where we use a combination of silicosol, kesel salt, and chitosan, which is a polysaccharide, unfortunately derived from uh shellfish, so you know it's not for vegetarians, uh, where we can now clarify lime juice in our centrifuge in uh you know, with 98% yield or more. It's crazy and it's super fast, it doesn't involve agar or any other nonsense. It's awesome, and it's all stuff you can buy at a homebrew shop, but unfortunately you have to uh own own it on a centrifuge.
+
+[35:55] But what's funny is it doesn't work on pasteurized tropicana orange juice. And uh so if anyone out there has speculation as to why I can clarify fresh orange juice uh and fresh grapefruit juice, uh, but I can't uh clarify pasteurized uh orange juice, but I can clarify pasteurized uh grapefruit juice, um, please let us know because it's something that uh I can't I can't figure it out, so I don't know don't know what's going on. Got another uh uh question in, uh actually more you know, more of a comment, something to think about, something I hadn't th thought about. Uh a while back someone asked us about different tubers. So we did a kind of tuber of the world uh, you know, uh thing.
+
+[36:37] And one of the things we mentioned is that while a lot of tum tubers like cassava have uh, you know, can have uh potentially deadly levels of uh cyanide precursors in them, so they need to be uh treated properly. That uh other ones have very high levels of uh oxalic acid. Um and so, you know, which is uh um usually concentrates in the in the leaves and whatnot, but have to be cooked properly. One of those is taro so we were talking about uh taro you know the same stuff that you make uh you know you know tarot putting out of and all that tarot chips all that uh and uh so we were talking about oxalic acid and one of our uh you know listeners brought to our attention the fact that there is a uh probably a more occurring now but uh less known disease called ox oxalosis and so uh and you know it basically causes kidney stones uh well yeah it what if you have kidney stones it means that you're not getting rid of uh your excess uh um oxalate um but uh uh it's something I hadn't I hadn't thought about but what he he said is that there's it the science is crazy because the list of foods doesn't seem to make any sense so you can't you can have all the ingredients in French toast let's say but you can't have French toast and uh you can't have uh you know you there's a whole lot list of things that you can't have uh I would encourage anyone to write in and tell us anything they know about this I'm interested in it. My mom just got over a really really bad bout of uh kidney stones and so uh it's something uh I'm interested in so if anyone uh writes in we'll do a little thing on uh on diet and uh oxalic acid and oxalate uh oxalosis but it's definitely something that we should be more uh probably more more attuned to something that I hadn't really really thought about.
+
+[38:13] Uh so n Nastasha tells me that I have a bunch of questions that I haven't actually gotten to because I've been yapping about uh stuff that I'm interested in. So uh Nastasha what are those uh what what questions am I missing out on do you know because it's uh I throw them to your email but one guy wants to know how to make great brisket. How to make great brisket? Cook it right. I'm kidding.
+
+[38:31] No, uh, if you want to make uh great brisket, the question is what kind of technique, uh what kind of technique do you want to use? I mean, you can do low temperature cook on a brisket, but uh it's not going to have the same uh taste uh and texture as you would have like a classic uh Texas style brisket because it's an entirely different cooking technique, both are low and slow. In a classic technique, you're using the the the poor heat transfer of the cook of the medium and plus the f the evaporation off the surface of the meat to ensure that the meat doesn't uh dry out too much during its long cooking period. Although that sounds contradictory, I think it's what I meant. Uh whereas if you do it low temperature, you're typically going to be doing it in a bag.
+
+[39:08] I would probably cook it on the order of the length of time that I would cook. If you're doing low temperature and you want to uh basically like throw it into a Ziploc bag with a little bit of fat, uh I would I would say uh depending on what you want, between sixty degrees uh Celsius for about uh fifty six hours, or uh I would try uh all all the way up to sixty-three for uh degrees for uh like forty, forty, forty-eight hours, or even as high as sixty-five for um you know, for um for like thirty six hours or so. But uh if you want the brisket to have that cured taste, then obviously you're gonna have to put some tender quick or some nitrite into it to uh to get it to have that cured taste, and then a vacuuming it down would cause that to to penetrate faster. Um but I haven't read the email, so I don't know exactly what what uh is being looked at. I only you know, I uh this is just off the top of my head, like different things you can do to brisket.
+
+[40:07] Is that does that answer pretty much the question, Nastasha? Having not read it. Yeah, I mean he just said that he saw your um fried chicken recipe and he wanted to know if you had any good recipes for brisket. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:20] You know, I now when I do fried chicken at at home, uh I I still love that recipe. Carlo here at uh Roberta's has like a crazy recipe that I think is derived from the Pies and Thighs uh franchise which had closed and then reopened uh here in New York. And they have an insane, uh insanely easy recipe that really makes me kind of upset because uh because I liked it, but it was you know goes against all of my knowledge of good chicken making, and that is they they take it directly out of the brine, the chicken. They don't dry off the skin or anything like that. They throw it directly into AP flour, uh, I think with uh maybe some salt and pepper.
+
+[40:55] I don't know remember if they added baking soda or baking powder, but no egg, no nothing, no milk. And then fry it directly. And I thought it was pretty good. What do you think, Nastasha? Yeah, it was delicious.
+
+[41:03] Yeah, anyway. So that's something I'm gonna research on fried chicken. But currently, the problem with fried chicken when I make it at home is that uh fried chicken has to be fried at a lower temperature than uh French fries and onion rings. And so uh to the way I always used to do it is I fry off all my chicken, ramp my ch my temperatures, and then and then bust out all my fries, which is fine at at uh at dinner, but at a party it becomes kind of a hassle because you can't throttle your fryer temperatures up and down like that 'cause I have a thirty five pound deep fryer at home, which is a commercial deep fryer. Uh so what I do now is I I do uh cooking for uh what I call low temperature for insurance.
+
+[41:37] I bag insur cooking insurance that is, not like you know, insurance like for your house, is I bag uh all of the chicken in the mil in a very small amount of the milk brine, very small amount, just enough to get a good seal on on a Ziploc bag. And I cook the uh the breast meat at uh sixty-four for about an hour Celsius, and I cook the leg meat at sixty-five and a half for about an hour, uh and then I pull them out, and when they're hot, I pull them out of the bag and and put them on a grate so that the skin can dry off just from the heat of the uh uh evaporating off the chicken. And that's the crucial step when people do a low temp before they fry that they forget to do on a chicken because they they let it cool in the bag and then they pull off and they get really bad adhesion of the flour and batter to the chicken skin. So the secret is pull it out when it's hot, let it flash off uh in the open. Then I do my traditional uh my traditional uh breading technique on it, which is uh it goes into a buttermilk egg make it goes flour, buttermilk egg, uh baking soda, baking powder, and then back into flour, and then uh and then you fry it.
+
+[42:36] And then I can fry the chicken at a very high temperature, same temperature as my fries, and I know it's perfect every time. I don't have to worry about it going over or under. I don't have to stick a knife into it and stick it against the my bottom lip to see whether or not I've cooked all the way through, which is what I used to have to do all the time. Uh so it's really a good way of doing chicken if you have an immersion circulator, some access to uh low temperature. Uh otherwise you have to just cut the chicken pieces smaller so that they cook cook through faster.
+
+[43:00] Um did I have any more questions I didn't answer, Nastasha? Yeah, someone wants to know how to do duck confite sous vide. Ah, so duck confit sous- vide uh or low temperature if you don't have a uh you know an actual vacuum machine is an interesting, interesting uh problem. So we don't do low, low temperature. In other words, we don't cook at any lower temperature than you would normally cook it because um confie, the texture of confie is only achieved at the higher temperatures you'd associate with the normal braising.
+
+[43:28] However, sous vide is a fantastic technique for doing confie for several reasons. First of all, you still have to cure the duck legs beforehand, right? You have to cure them with uh salt and you know whatever herbs you normally rub in, let it sit overnight. But you don't need a lot of fat. This is the primary thing that's great.
+
+[43:45] You don't need a lot of fat to do uh to do confi sous-vide. You could basically bag the leg by itself with maybe an extra tablespoon of fat, if that uh seal it, you can seal it really hard uh because uh you you yeah, you have a bulk bone in it, so you need to seal it pretty pretty hard. And normally when you seal poultry on the bone, the problem is the blood is sucked out of the red stuff sucked out of the bone, it can lend pinkness to the meat that doesn't go away even when you cook it. But confis cooked so high that you don't need to worry about it. Then just throw it in the simmering water in the bag for you know three hours or so until you feel that you can feel the bone through the uh through the duck meat, and you know it's done, pull it out, let it cool down uh you know, uh, you know, a little on your counter for 20, 30 minutes, uh, and then you know put it in the in the fridge or in an ice bath and chill it down, and it's perfect.
+
+[44:32] It's so not messy compared to normal comfy. You can do individual leg portions by themselves, so you can easily if you're a family of two, you can you know cook the breasts for you know one thing and then just comfy just those two legs and then uh serve them whenever you want. Uh and so it's really super easy for someone to comfi, especially at home when you don't have a zillion uh duck legs lying around and you don't have like buckets of duck fat and you haven't been saving duck fat from rendering all the breasts like they do in restaurants. Uh the thing's never gonna overheat, it's never gonna go bad. So it really is a fantastic technique for doing uh duck confie, but I would basically just use simmering water, or if you have a circulator set it to about 85 Celsius and run it run it that way until it's done.
+
+[45:16] And uh I think it's I think it's great. I mean, uh it's not necessarily better than traditional Konfi. It maybe it's probably a little moister, it's not necessarily better, but it definitely is a great, great way to do uh duck confie, especially at home. Did I have any more that I missed? No, because it's time and your time is up.
+
+[45:32] Yeah, but did I miss any? No. No. Alright, and here's one more thing on the way out. I am gonna soon write my post on uh UP Hedric's Fruits of New York series, the greatest pomological reference library of all times.
+
+[45:44] And yesterday I acquired the last two, I'm actually missing one more, but the last two of uh of the series. And so now I am the owner of the greatest pomological reference series of all times. This has been Cooking Issuals. We'll see you next week. Got me on this corner.
+
+[46:05] And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:11] Hello and welcome to an on-time edition of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, here again with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, back from her Florida trip. Calling all of your questions, cooking related or otherwise, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Today's show is brought to you by Hearst Ranch.
+
+[0:37] Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free-range, all natural, grass-fed and grass-finished beef. Since 1865, which is a long time. The Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.hearstranch.com.
+
+[0:59] That's www.hearstranch.com. They actually supplied the uh the ribeye for the uh Heritage Radio fundraiser that was uh a couple months back, the one where we did the banana soustino drink. Delicious. Right? Delicious.
+
+[1:12] Delicious. Good product. Anyway. Uh so yesterday was Valentine's Day. And uh What did you do for your wife?
+
+[1:20] Uh I bought flowers because I'm lazy. But the uh that's not the point. The point is is that uh I was reminded by my uh I was reminded by my uh third grade son the horrors that used to be Valentine's Day. I was that kid uh who, you know, when everyone was buying carnations for everyone, you know, they would buy carnations for their friend for like a dollar. Like I was the one that got the mystery admirer carnation.
+
+[1:40] Like they would they didn't think I understood it, that meant that no one bought me a damn carnation. And that's so they they just give one to you because no one's purchased one for you. You know what I mean? You know that kid? That kid was me.
+
+[1:49] Right. I mean it's like Valentine's. I didn't have that sympathy. Oh, geez. Oh, really?
+
+[1:52] Well, it's California. See, everyone thinks New York people aren't sympathetic, but in fact, you know, like they give out the sympathy carnation. We're actually good people over here in New York, for those of you that don't know us. Uh anywho, so you know, Valentine's Day was, you know, basically a yearly uh living nightmare horror story for me. Actually, up until uh, you know, uh 1990, uh 1991, no, 1992, right, when I was 20, uh, was the first year I had a good Valentine's, and it was the day I started dating uh a actual, you know, cracker jack, smart, badass, verifiable hot chick, uh who whom I eventually married and who's my currently my wife.
+
+[2:33] So um anyway, so Valentine's Day ended up being good for me, but was horrible for the first 20 years. And my son had this happen. Uh he was uh, you know, gave a Valentine to uh a girl in the third grade, and uh which he would never do, he's not that kind of a kid. He gives it to her and completely rebuffed. No, like, yeah, Valentine on the floor, I don't want this.
+
+[2:53] Complete horror. I felt felt awful, and my and my my younger son, his brother, basically, who's an equal mix of really sensitive, sweet kid and gun-loving, crazy, rough and tumble boy monster, uh, goes. Alright, we're either gonna kick her in the face or dip her in poop. And then uh like, you know, no one's saying anything because they don't know what to say because it's this crazy thing to say. And then after a couple seconds, he's like, So which is it?
+
+[3:20] Kick in the face or dip and poop. Anyway, that was Valentine's Day. So yeah. Hey, yeah, no nah, no nah. Anyway, I wasn't calling him out too bad.
+
+[3:30] I guess everyone knows him knows my son. Anyway, so uh another thing, we're announcing we just sent out the press release for the uh Museum of Food and Drink a fundraiser. Uh and the Museum of Food. Do we have a call in? Yeah.
+
+[3:41] Alright, so I'll take the call first so I can spend the adequate amount of time on the Museum of Food and Drink. Hello, caller, you are on the air. Hi. I've been working a lot lately with preserved lemons and Indian lime pickles and Yuzu Kosho. And um I realized recently that I didn't actually understand kind of the mechanism of what's going on with salt, cure, and citrus like that.
+
+[4:01] It's the affinity, acidity and the salinity are too high for any sort of microbial or bacterial mechanism. So it's just gotta be sort of the salt, the sort of controlled rot. But I don't really know what's going on. The whole thing gets darker and the gets thicker and the texture changes. I wonder if you could explain a little bit about what's going on there.
+
+[4:21] Wow, that's actually an excellent question. I haven't really I haven't really thought about it. I'm sure that there's gotta be some sort of there's gotta be some sort of bacterial growth, right? Uh otherwise it would be purely an enzymatic reaction that's causing it to happen, which I don't think it is. Because it the thing definitely changes over time, right?
+
+[4:42] So if it changes so if it changes over time, either you're dealing with an enzymatic process, or you're dealing with a uh bacterial slash enzymatic process, or it's probably not a yeast-based or uh any sort of fungal-based thing. I know that you know who's an expert in this is Harold McGee. Um I'm gonna s I'm gonna speak to him relatively soon. I should ask him. You've caught me completely off guard on something that I haven't studied.
+
+[5:07] I do know that if you that certain things do happen in them that look like they're uh like they're bacteria based. For instance, it you can get you can get situations when you're curing them uh with certain kinds of lemons where you get like ropey substance forming in the in the cured lemon thing, which is probably some sort of polysaccharide, which I would guess, which I would guess is formed by uh bacteria, but could be just some sort of wonky thing happening to the pectin over time. I don't know. I wish I did. I'm sorry that do you have a question?
+
+[5:29] I might have an answer to this. This is like the first time I've been completely hundred percent stumped on what the correct answer is, right? Right, Nastashi for the Science Center. Yeah. Um I can't think of I think I've listened to all the episodes, and I've never heard you miss one before.
+
+[5:48] So you know, I should give you some sort of prize for a complete for complete stump out. But what I can do uh is go I'll go online and uh I'll go into like the actual literature search, not just like the regular internet. I'll go into like uh I'll go into Columbia's database of uh of uh science literature and I'll see if I can't find the stuff and barring that um I will I will ask McGee and he will tell me what's going on. And we did have a question where I did follow up next week. So Nastasha is now being very good about making sure I follow up.
+
+[6:18] So listen in next week for the answer to the question, alright? Alright, and I'll uh I'll post something to the forum to remind you. Cool, thanks a lot. Okay, bye. Oh, depressing first call.
+
+[6:28] Stumped. Stumped stumped. Well, that's me, big jerk. Anyway. So um Museum.
+
+[6:35] Museum. So the Museum of Food and Drink uh is it you know a museum that uh tried to start uh a long time ago, like six five, six years ago, six I guess, and uh, you know, Patrick Martins and I are now trying to get back off the ground again, and we're having a major fundraiser, and the fundraiser is gonna be on uh Sunday. Sunday Sunday, March 27th. Uh, and it's gonna, you know, it's not cheap. It's what is it?
+
+[6:57] It's cheap for the for the food it's a good thing. Well, for what you get is cheap two hundred and fifty dollars. It's it's it's not inexpensive, but it's a bug in the right. It's a five hour extravaganza. Well, we don't know.
+
+[7:06] We up to five hours extravaganza. Anyway, so we're we're putting it on, and here's the current, and what we're doing is we're getting a bunch of chefs and bartenders to come in to Del Posto, which is a fabulous, you know, restaurant in uh in uh New York, four stars. Our friend Mark Ladner is the is the chef there. Uh, and we're getting a bunch of chefs and bartenders to come in and cook things based on specific themes, right? So we're giving them a theme, and their dish is gonna be inspired by it.
+
+[7:30] So here is the list in no particular order. Dave Chang, his uh theme is American food circa 1491. So that's gonna be all foods that don't have uh, you know, all foods from the Americas prior to uh the Colombian Exchange. So that should be interesting. I'm thinking he's probably gonna do something with acorns, which was a big native uh, you know, Native American uh food stuff, but also a big Korean food stuff, so he could probably pull in like you know different levels of uh of work there.
+
+[7:54] So I'm assuming he's gonna do something with acorns, but who knows? Uh Wiley Dufrein, uh, you know, from uh WD 50, my brother-in-law. I gave him, because he's well-known tech guy, I gave him caveman food. He was kind of mad at me, but you know, what are you gonna do? Caveman food.
+
+[8:10] Paleolithic. Uh Mark Ladner, uh the host chef from Del Posto. I gave him Ancient Rome. Uh and so uh Wiley actually texted me and was like, hey, you gave uh you gave Mark a softball there with the ancient Rome, but not really. Ancient Roman cuisine is extr extraordinarily different from uh modern Italian cuisine, has a completely different basis, uh like you know, spice and and ingredient basis, you know, based more on uh on uh s um uh lovage seed and uh fish sauce and uh you know just a whole different ingredient base than than what's known.
+
+[8:42] So it's not really a softball. Uh that's what he's gonna be doing. Nils, Nils Norrin, uh uh, you know, uh kind of of the French culinary one, right? I gave him, just to be a jerk, I gave him fad diets. See what he does with that.
+
+[8:54] Fad diets. Uh Cesare Casella, who's coming at the beginning, gonna uh give us a whole bunch of delicious salumi uh to fit in with the fact that we knew he was gonna bring saluvi. We gave him shriveled meat as his category. Uh and then, okay, Carlo from Robert's, whose last name I've I've never been able to pronounce, so I'm gonna try the way well, Mirachi. But you gotta say like Mirachi.
+
+[9:15] Anyway, I don't know how you're supposed to pronounce it. Anyway, he's gonna do New York food circa the uh early 1900s, or is that late 1800s, early 1900s? 1900s. Early 1900s, okay. Brooks Headley, the uh pastry chef from Del Posto, is going to be doing Hebrew food in Italy, because there's a big group of uh of uh people that basically had to leave Spain during the uh Inquisitions, settled in uh Italy and brought some very interesting uh dessert things with them, uh, you know, some of which uh are kind of big in my family.
+
+[9:43] And uh Christina Tozi, also of Momafuku Milk Bar, or from Momafuku, but a milk bar, we're giving her, this is a tough one, space food. Here's why we're giving her space food. She's like, space food, why are you giving me space food? I was like, well, Christina Tozi, other than being, you know, the fantabulous Christina Tozi that she is, little known fact, she writes a lot of the Hasset plans uh for the sous vide programs here in the city that chefs have. And HACSIP was uh originally developed by large food corporations like Pillsbury uh and for the space program.
+
+[10:11] The idea being that they needed uh they need a zero tolerance food system because if an astronaut gets the poops in the in the space, it's a big problem. So, anyway, so is uh Hasset was developed uh in part for the space program and uh and is now used in basically in all industries for food. And so I gave her that as a as a as a tip of the hat to uh her uh HACCP skills. Audrey Saunders from the Pegu Club will be making drinks. Thomas Waugh from Death Co.
+
+[10:38] uh. also Simon Ford, the uh head, uh I guess head bartender bartender for Pronot Ricard, uh Damian Bolti from Prime Meats, and Evan Clem from BR Guest Restaurants and fellow techie related bartend dude will be doing it. Uh all proceeds will go to the Museum of Food and Drink. Please go to H T T P colon forward forward mofad dot that's M O F A D like Museum of Food and Drink. Event Bright.
+
+[11:02] Spell it improperly. B-R-I-T-E dot com. That's HTTP forward forward mofad.eventbrite.com for more info. All right. That was a long plug.
+
+[11:14] Anyway, because we want you to come. It's going to be a great, great time. All right. Now, on to real questions. Uh I have a question about tempering chocolate in the microwave.
+
+[11:23] Most of the instructions I've seen are very complicated, requiring a good candy thermometer and often instructions to use a microwave multiple times or add additional cold chocolate to the microwave chocolate, stirring, etc. etc. I've tried about three or four times simply putting two cups of chocolate chips into the microwave until they turn glossy and removing them, stirring them until they melt. Each time this two-step process has worked just fine. Are the additional steps and temperature precision really necessary?
+
+[11:45] Have I just been getting lucky or is something else at work? Kurt Kastorf. Well, uh, I think you're just lucky, Kurt. Anyway, uh, but but uh the point is uh is that if you that recipe works for you, like you'll you will be repeatably lucky. If you do the same thing and it's and it's working, then it should be able to repeat itself.
+
+[12:04] Because here here's what's actually uh what's actually going on and what why the recipes are are so complicated. And by the way, you have to make sure that the chocolate is actually uh tempering, right? Like so uh you know, you have to make sure it's actually getting a good temper. I mean, obviously anyone can just melt chocolate in the microwave. The question is, are you getting a good temper?
+
+[12:22] If you are getting a good temper, and by the way, for those of you well, you'll hear. Anyway, so chocolate has basically the cocoa butter in it, has roughly six ways of uh of crystallizing, right? The the the cocoa butter can form six different crystal structures, and those crystal structures have different uh different properties, right? So uh you know most uh and and those crystals have different uh melting points, right? So what happens is uh badly tempered chocolate is mostly in uh form four, which is also known as uh beta prime, and good tempered chocolate is in form five, which is beta crystals, right?
+
+[12:58] So what happens is if you uh heat chocolate up, melt out all the crystals, and then cool it down too rapidly, which is basically any kind of cooling that you're gonna do to it is too rapid, uh it will form mostly uh type four beta prime crystals. And what what what those are is they're soft, right? They because they have a lower melting point, so they're very soft, they have a lot of uh they don't they're not hard, they don't have a snap, and they're dull looking, they're not glossy. All in all, they're kind of crappy. And even if even if you didn't care about all the fact that it did, you know, it didn't have good texture and it melted too low, if you store those for a long time, they will convert from beta prime to beta.
+
+[13:35] And that sounds like it's a good thing, right, Nastasha? Because the beta is what you want. Yes. Yeah, but it's a bad thing. You know why?
+
+[13:40] No. No. Well, it's because uh all of the forms of uh of as they get more and more hard and more and more stable, when they go from beta prime to beta, they contract. And when they contract from beta prime to beta, they squeeze fat out of the uh cocoa part and you get that white fat bloom on the top. So poor poorly uh poorly uh tempered chocolate will get fat bloom very quickly, even if you didn't care about the snap and all the rest of that stuff, right?
+
+[14:06] Okay. So and and so that's why the typical old school uh hardcore tempering technique is you melt out all of the crystals by taking it up to you know like a 115 or so Fahrenheit, sorry, Celsius heads, we're gonna do this one in Fahrenheit. And then uh you rapidly cool it down uh to you know in the in the eighties somewhere, and then crystals start forming, and then you reheat it up to about ninety-four or so to melt out all the crappy beta prime crystals, right? Now all you have in there is beta crystals. Now when you cool it again, she'll be tempered because those beta crystals will act like little seeds that everything kind of hooks on to, right?
+
+[14:42] It's all about seeding it, right? The easy way, and that's if you're starting from all you have, you're on a desert island, you have a pot, a thermometer, and a bunch of untempered chocolate, right? That's how you would do it. Most of the time, what we do is we just melt the chocolate, right? We take it up, melt it, bring it down into the range where uh beta crystals want to form in the nineties, right, and then stir in chopped up tempered chocolate that already have the good seeds in the good crystal form, and then all of a sudden, all of the chocolate as it cools will form those nice stable uh beta crystals, right?
+
+[15:14] And but you need at least um you know about you know one to three percent of uh beta crystals mixed all throughout it, so you're stirring it right to cause it to happen, to uh to seed it to seed it properly. Now, when you're doing it in the nuke, right, you're starting with uh hopefully with tempered chocolate. If you start with tempered chocolate, right, and you nuke it so it's like you say just glossy on the outside, and then you stir it so long as the temperature of that thing is in the beta zone, right, in the like nineties, and not a low temperature where you're gonna be forming uh bad beta prime crystals, right? So as long as as soon as that last piece of chocolate melts, you're still in that like you know, ninety ninety, ninety two, ninety three, ninety four Fahrenheit range in there, ninety five in that zone, right? Then you will uh seed properly with uh beta crystals and it'll work.
+
+[16:04] But the reason they have it like taking it all the time and stirring it and then sometimes throwing in seed chocolate is because they're assuming that you're gonna overheat the mass of chocolate so that when it's all melted, it's not gonna be in the right temperature range. So, yes, you got lucky, but maybe you'll get repeatably lucky. If I were you, I would save some seed chocolate to stir in after it's all melted, just in case, and you can take the temperature when it's done, and that should give you the answer. So long-winded, but I mean chocolate tempering is an interesting uh subject. The good reference book to get on chocolate that's small is uh The Science of Chocolate by Stephen T.
+
+[16:35] Beckett. It's expensive but small and fairly easy to read. Uh I think probably a smaller investment and faster to read than uh the other book that people use now, chocolate science and technology by Emmanuel Apho Aqua, right? And I don't know that anyone uses the old chocolate reference. This is one I started using back in the day, which is Minaphy.
+
+[16:53] Minifee's big old chocolate book. Right? And with that, we will go to our first commercial break. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Alright.
+
+[17:20] Gotta take high brother! Now I won't have a body. Let Red blow up by two cores. And then I want to wave you and let'm gonna get that belly within a fella with a low horn over there. No, James, get it take us higher.
+
+[17:46] Take us higher. Red. Give a big arm about the bread. Hello. You know what?
+
+[18:51] When I hear a groove like this groove. Oh, they got it. Yeah, baby. Well, welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[19:08] That's 718-497-2128. And although that's the longest we've played that song during the intermission, we still have not made it to Funky D. He's gonna make it to Funky D in a little while, but we'd be here all day if we waited for James to go down to Funky D. Although it is well worth the wait. I encourage you all to go out and do it to death, as James.
+
+[19:25] I guess I actually did since he's now dead. Anyway. Right? Dumb. Really dumb.
+
+[19:29] I'm a dumb man. What do you want out of me? Okay. Um Jason writes in from England, and I think he was listening actually to two weeks ago, saying that uh he was listening to me answer the question about cookie texture using hydrocolloids, and he says more conventionally, you just use high high gluten uh flour, uh, and you he won't get a bready uh bready cookie, he'll just uh limit the spread, which uh you know I actually got confirmed and said last week from Christina Tozy, but here's uh you know, further confirmation that what you want to do to get your cookie to not spread so much is use a high gluten flour. Jason adds a secondary uh thing, which is also uh let the uh let the cookie rest in the fridge uh for uh 24 hours.
+
+[20:08] I guess that will I guess develop the the I don't know, maybe well the cold will limit the spread as we said, but also maybe developing some of the some of the flour more. I don't know. But anyway, uh thank you, Jason, for for that tip. Uh now, we had a question and it sent me off on like a uh on a bunch of research. So you're gonna have to hear another one of my long-winded nonsense things.
+
+[20:29] Uh but Chris Anderson writes in the way you get to your long-winded call. Oh, we have a caller? All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey, how are you doing, David? Doing all right.
+
+[20:38] See if we get a double stump this week. What do you got? My name is Matt. I'm actually calling from Chicago. Hey, Chicago.
+
+[20:44] Hey Matt from Chicago. Actually, I used to work in New York with Wiley and Mark and all those guys. Um, you're not you're not at uh you're not at uh you're not out there with uh Mike Sheeran, are you? Where are you cooking out in Chicago? No, I'm I'm actually a few chef at a steakhouse, but uh that just opened it's crazy busy, but it's a whole different story.
+
+[21:03] Yeah. Um my question is, um I'm really interested in the uh nitrous infusion using the uh ISI cream whipper. Right. And um I was wondering if you tried it with any viscous liquids like say honey or some kind of uh scented syrup. All right, I haven't, but if I if okay, so here's the thing, right?
+
+[21:22] Honey has uh honey is just extremely thick, right? So if I was gonna do it, I'm uh I it would I'm assuming it would work, but I think you'd want to keep the whole thing like f war like warmer than we normally keep it, right? So I would I I would put the whole ISI in or EC which is it that they like now? I would put the I would I would put the uh no no no it I do it. Oh it's not you, it's me.
+
+[21:46] I can't because in in here it was one and in Europe it was the other, and they're trying to make it both the same now, but like no one can keep it straight. And when I say no one, me, no one else seems to have a problem. Anyway, EC. Um so I would put the whole thing into a uh into a uh warm bane marie for a while. And the reason is you just need it to be uh thin enough to to get accurate you know, to get punched into the pores of your product, right?
+
+[22:09] So if you if it's if it you get it nice and liquidy uh by warming it, then I think it should uh work. You know, and but you have to keep you have to keep it liquid, like warm during the whole process down to the time when you're venting it so that it can also bubble back out again. I I've never tested it, but I I have uh I have high hopes that it will work. Let me put it that way. Outstanding, sounds cool.
+
+[22:31] But give it a shot and then let us know how it works. Oh yeah, they will. And I got another thing on the Uzo effect. Um I was listening to the old shows on the way into work the other day and I was like I honestly I didn't believe that you could cloudy the water. I used to drink pastices a lot, and I didn't think that the water uh that the liquor would get cloudy just by dilution.
+
+[22:50] And so I had to try it, and the the interesting thing is is that it does obviously get cloudy by dilution, but if you put it in a microwave for less than ten seconds, the cloudiness goes away. And then by adding more ice cubes to it, the cloudiness comes back. So I tried it with with bo boiling hot water. I tried it with water tea water, and I still gets the cloudiness still comes in from dilution, but it goes away much faster with heat. Huh.
+
+[23:17] So it's an interesting interesting thing. Yeah, so huh? So when you're heating that actually makes sense to me, right? So what's happening is you're adding water, and uh as you add water, you reach a point at any given temperature where the oil is no longer soluble in that percentage of ethanol, right? And so it it it forms instantly forms little uh micro uh you know droplets of oil, and that's what makes it look cloudy.
+
+[23:43] If you let it sit at that temperature for a long time, uh sometimes depending, I don't know with pastisted but with some of the stuff that I make, uh, that that cloudiness, the oil will actually float to the top, and then it won't be cloudy anymore, right? Uh but what you're saying is is you heat it, and when you heat it, you're re-increasing the solubility of the oil into the remaining ethanol fraction, right? 'Cause presumably you're not boiling. If you boiled it, you'd probably make the problem worse. But by heating it, you're increasing the solubility uh of the product and causing it to go clear again, and then when you drop the temperature again by adding ice, you're doing two things.
+
+[24:18] One you're watering it down more, which is going to increase the uh the dropout, and you're also uh decreasing the temperature, which increases the drop. But that makes sense, but that's interesting, but I've never experimented with it before. Yeah, yeah, it was just a weird thing. I thought I had to try it out. So I'd lets you know.
+
+[24:32] Alright, cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks, man, and I'll let you know how the honey goes, okay? Very good. Thanks so much.
+
+[24:36] Give me another call. Sure, take it easy. Oh, we have another caller. Caller, you were on the air. Hi, Dave.
+
+[24:41] I was uh messing around with some Nepalese the other day, and I cut them into cubes and I was uh just soaking them in some water and I noticed this gelatinous substance was forming. And I guess that's the s the uh the substance that the cacti used to like uh retain moisture in the desert, right? Uh right. It's like well, like a hydrocolloid similar to like what uh aloe vera has, right. Okay.
+
+[25:02] So is it like a mucilage like okra or like philae or is that a completely different like uh you know that's interesting. I haven't researched whether or not it can be used as a thickener. It is sure is slimy. Interestingly enough, on Sunday I was cooking uh nopolis, and you know how well I mean, uh when I when I cook 'em, I always, you know, I I try to get the um I try to get the spines off with the minimum of damage because I know they're gonna ooze out a lot, you know, and so I usually grill them first and then let them cool down a bit before I slice them so they don't get too slimy on me. But I've never tried to actively uh actively extract the slime.
+
+[25:40] So did did you then did you decant the slime off that was in the in the water and then try to use it for something or no? I did not, but uh I probably will try it in the future. But uh the first thing I thought of was like okra and other you know other thickness, and I wonder how it would uh compare and if I mean I'm sure it's probably e look, I mean all different hydrocolloids have different um actions, and we're used to thinking of hydrocolloids as being these things that come in powdered form. But in reality, hydrocolloids are all uh not all most uh are f are just like what you say. They come from natural sources and they've been discovered in natural ways.
+
+[26:15] Like most of the seaweed, uh seaweed, like you know, you can extract carrageeninan from uh Irish moss by boiling it, right? Or you can uh and so okra basically is uh has this kind of uh snotty, slimy stuff that is actually a natural hydrocolloid just not one that's used uh industrially so it doesn't get lumped in but m you know many products have um you know the these things so there's a chef from Spain I forget who it was who did it but you know made uh made a lot of demos basically using the natural hydrocolloids in aloe vera right although I guess if you if you do that that wrong it can give you the poops because of the latex but yeah but the um uh so to you know to answer your question I I don't know I don't know of any commercially uh used uh cactus based thickening things but I you know it it it is it it is some polysaccharide right so it is some hydrocolloid and then the question is what are its uh what are its properties it doesn't seem like it's a gelling hydrocolloid right it seems more like a thickener if you if you ask me but the question is like will it thicken without making too sl making things too slimy. It's a fairly slimy stuff you know what I mean it's it's more on the order like you say of okra. And so when you overthicken with okra as opposed to filet like like those those uh those things can take on a bit of a slippery nature right which I actually kind of like for those dishes but some people don't you know what I mean like some people don't some people don't get down with the okra. I I happen to think that okra is one of God's gifts to you know humanity.
+
+[27:41] I love okra but um a lot of people a lot of people do not I don't know why it's fried okra is one of the great things in the world anyway um uh so I think again uh I have noticed this effect um but I haven't seen whether there's any you know what I'll do again uh I'm not gonna count this as a complete stump by the way because I I do know what you're talking about. Uh but what I'll do is I'll try and see whether anyone has characterized what the uh polysaccharides are in the nopolis. And by the way, for those of you don't know what the hell we're talking about, I realize napolis are like uh prickly pear cactus leaves. You can buy them in uh Latin stores. Be careful because uh some of them are relatively innocuous, but some of them the spines can be pretty nasty and can get in your fingers when you're working with them.
+
+[28:20] Scrape the uh scrape off the uh spines with uh with a knife. I cut off usually the very uh tip end, which is the only part I cut off because it's hard to scrape that thing accurately, brush with oil, salt, pepper grill. Uh enjoy it because they're delicious. They're also kind of sour, they're s slimy and kind of tart and kind of delicious. Don't you think so?
+
+[28:38] I think so. I agree. Yeah. Anyway, so I'll I'll try and see whether anyone has characterized what the polysaccharide is in there. And meanwhile, you see whether you can thicken up a uh stew with them and uh give us a holler back.
+
+[28:49] All right, thanks, dude. All right, very good, thank you. Let's take a break. All right, we will take our Nastasha's telling me we will take our second commercial break, even though that was a short segment because I took the long one too last. Anyway, 718, what is it?
+
+[29:00] 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You know what? We're not here, groove like this. Oh yeah.
+
+[29:49] Black way up young man. Look at you. Someone got a groove like this. You know? No.
+
+[29:58] No. I need to grip. Need to grip the bit no bread. You know. I've a three.
+
+[30:25] Hey, bread time. Bravo. I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down.
+
+[30:33] I need to get down. And all the vomiting gets down. I got to get in D. And all the Bomita get down. I got to get in D.
+
+[30:43] Need to get in D. Dog the D. Here we go. Down D. Funky D.
+
+[30:52] Thank you D. Down D. Ow! Oh yeah. Down D.
+
+[31:03] That's the balls. Goes down to D. Everyone else goes up. James goes down. Back here, cooking issues, calling your questions too.
+
+[31:11] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Alright, Chris Anderson writes in and he says, I've tried making authentic French macaroons a few times. Macaron a few times. Uh, and while they taste great, I don't seem to be able to achieve the polished flat look of uh La Dre, La Durée, which is you know the famous uh French macaroon shop in Paris.
+
+[31:32] Mine tend to crack and collapse as they are baking. Would it help to use an Italian meringue instead of a French? Could the meringue be too stiff? Is the open temperature too high at 180 Celsius? Are there any modern ingredients I could add to improve the result?
+
+[31:44] I'd really appreciate your uh advice. So, first of all, when we're talking about these, these uh you know, macaroon macaron, whatever you want to call them, uh what we're referring to here, the La Dure style is basically a sandwich style with uh either a ganache or a jelly filling in between two soft uh almond and egg white based delicious things. They come in various colors, and they like fried okra are one of God's great creations. Uh and I I love them. So, okay, so here's the thing.
+
+[32:09] I have a lot of things to say on this subject, right? But I will I will tell you that the first and foremost, I just walked up to one of our pastry chefs today and was like, all right, you know, this guy's having this problem. What do you think? Here's what here's what uh Chef Jurgen, one of our lead pastry instructors, said. One, what kind of sugar are you using?
+
+[32:27] If you're using a coarse sugar to make your uh meringue or to fold in with the sugar with the almonds, try going to a uh try going to a um my brain's gone, a finer grade of sugar. He also said that if you're if your things are cracking and collapsing, perhaps you aren't deflating your uh perhaps you aren't deflating your uh your your egg whites enough before they go in. So there's too much air left in the mix and they're it's puffing up too much and cracking and collapsing. I thought that was really interesting. Because most of the time when you try to do a recipe with an egg white, you you want to make sure not to deflate it.
+
+[33:00] And he's saying, well, maybe you're not deflating it enough. I thought that was very interesting. Um the other thing is uh I'm not sure I didn't do the the conversion uh from uh Celsius to Fahrenheit, but if your oven is too hot, it can puff up too fast and collapse. Also remember most recipes tell you to leave the door ajar when you're cooking uh these things because I guess they want the uh steam to escape. So th those are all those are all things, things to look at.
+
+[33:26] Uh but uh in the course of researching your uh problem, uh I came across these things which you may or may not find find interesting. One is just a book that I think everyone should own, but nobody does. It's almost completely unavailable. It's called Perfect Bakery and Confectionary by the Richemont Craft School, and Nastasha's gonna be gloating because I'm uh you know pumping a Swiss group and she's like she's Queen Switzerland. But uh this craft school in s in Switzerland puts out uh this series of books, but this one, Perfect Bakery Confectionary, is unavailable except through them, and it's like $99.
+
+[33:57] It really makes me angry. And uh I can't find it on BookFinder or anything, but it's one of the great pastry books because what it does is it has pictures side by side of hey, what happens when the flour is too fine, too coarse, just right. And it'll show you a picture of all the bakery stuff. So they're they have a like a four-page section on macarons, but they're unfortunately they're not the kind you're talking about. They're the old school Italian um, you know, denser, not sandwich-based uh cookies.
+
+[34:22] All right. Uh secondly, um I will go through a a a s a short history on on the macarons. The macaroon, obviously, uh originally an Italian product, uh, and apparently derived from the same word as uh as uh macaroni because it's ground. It's basically any form of kind of ground almond paste and sugar uh that is then has egg whites added to it, right? The French ones uh you know are are beaten egg white, but they don't have to be beaten.
+
+[34:47] They can just be mixed in for a denser, denser macaroon. That was the original one uh taken to uh taken to France with the medicese when they went over, right? The coconut stuff is a later uh is a later addition where uh almond was in whole or in part substituted with uh shredded coconut. Uh and so that you know that's how the coconut macaroon. So most Americans you ask them about a macaroon and they're thinking about a coconut product, but that was actually derived from the the almond-based one.
+
+[35:12] Now, the mac the macaron that we're talking about, this sandwich, everyone credits everyone credits uh, you know, uh the uh this guy at La Dere in the early part of the 20th century with uh inventing it, right? And the guy's name, I forget what it is. I have it here. Pierre uh Defontaine, right? Uh that it was the grandson of the original La Dere, right?
+
+[35:31] He they say he invented this idea of of making a double decker macaroon uh uh putting ganache in uh in the middle. And uh I don't think that's I mean that's what everyone says, that's what everyone on the internet says. Uh but I was researching this and I went to one of the great, one of my favorite, other favorite pastry books, which uh you can actually get for free on the internets because it's old. Uh it was written in 1904, and it's called uh Modern Baker Confectioner and Caterer, printed in 1907, rather, by John Kirkland. It's a four-volume set, and you can actually get them.
+
+[36:06] It was published in England, and you can still get it cheap, and these are a fantastic, fantastic set of books. State-of-the-art baking from 1907. And actually, I think they were kept revising it up till 1930. And copies are still cheap. It's four volumes, and you can get each one for like, you know, 13 bucks if you're in England.
+
+[36:23] But it's shipped over here, it's like 20 bucks because that no one in the US has them. It's an English only thing, which is where I bought my copy. Um But uh I was researching macaroons then, and prior to when La Dere was supposed to have invented it, right? They had uh they had something where b basically uh they would always sandwich the macaroons together to form a nice appearance, and that's why if you read recipes, and this is only for macaroon heads out there, they'll tell you to put it on parchment on a uh and when you pull it off the baking sheet to put some water between the parchment and the thing to make the macaroons come off easier. In fact, they were on wafer paper before and put on water which would dissolve the wafer paper and you could pull it off and the bottom will be tacky, and you could stick the two macaroons together to make a macaroon on macaroon sandwich.
+
+[37:05] Now, one of the recommendations that this book makes, I think is very interesting, is if you uh have problems sticking these two things together, right? Then because maybe they're not wet enough or they're just not sticking, then you can take some all uh some apricot jelly they recommend and wipe it between, forming what up a standard La Dere style macaroon. So maybe this dude at La Dere humped up a bunch of macaroons one day and was like these things aren't sticking together, and then put a ganache instead of a jelly in between them all and sold that as like you know, the the cool thing because they definitely popularize them. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so those are my thoughts on macaroons, and you should definitely go out and uh look on the internet for uh Kirkland's uh modern baker and confectionery or buy a hard copy like I have, has a really good section on molding and cornstarch, and has a lot of I mean, even though it's very old, has a lot of um a lot of if this goes wrong, do this, if that goes wrong, do this, etc.
+
+[37:56] etc. etc. Really uh great uh set of books. And they also have an interesting thing to say about macaroons. If you're making macaroons in the US, and old school, they're talking about old school Italian macaroons here, right?
+
+[38:06] Uh if it is that they're very influenced by the amount of oil in the almonds. So if you're making it from scratch with a California almond, you're gonna get a very different result from if you're making a macaroon with uh like a European or Marcona, something like that, it has very high fat content. Because a lot of the California almonds we get have a lower fat content. And what they're saying is is if your almonds don't flow well enough, if they're too pinched up, you're probably using an almond uh with not enough fat. And if they flow too freely, maybe you're using one with too much fat.
+
+[38:34] They were talking about uh buying almond pastes that were adulterated, either with nonfat products or with or with extra fat, but it's something that I never thought about. I thought was very uh very, very uh interesting anyway uh so uh so that's that for the the macaroon I love macaroons don't you love macarons I would like one right now I would like one right now as well anyway okay so uh now on to the last question I have to excuse me I have to reach over and get the paper we are a paper based show today instead of an iPad based show today which is very interesting uh okay Joe Blute who is a uh at Dallas where is he Dallas College right? I don't know the first page of it. Dallas? Dallas.
+
+[39:14] Dallas Dallas. Dallas? Yes Dallas. Anyway, uh he writes in and says some uh very kind words uh about about us and uh he said uh he had a couple couple questions right so one he was he he's by the way thinking of building his own uh rotary evaporator and uh he's a chem oh chemistry major at the University of Dallas. He's trying to he's good thinking about building his own rotary evaporator.
+
+[39:35] So am I so am I Joe but unfortunately I haven't had the time to do it. Hopefully sometime very soon I will have the opportunity to do that more on that in a couple minutes. But he also uh is looking for a budget centrifuge and I think we posted on that a couple times trying to find a budget centrifuge. Don't go too budget right make sure that the centrifuge is safe. That's uh that's what I'm gonna what I'm gonna say.
+
+[39:56] Um but he has a question that uh I want to get to and he says uh uh I really love uh the multifaceted aspect of the culinary arts that you get to deal with and what you do is something I am interested in uh the mixture of organic surfact and kinetic chemistry is fascinating. How do you come to have such a great job and what do you recommend I do to move towards such a position? Okay, here's what I say. One you know, f food science is we we don't do food science, right? We use science to make food, which is kind of a fundamental difference.
+
+[40:28] Like I don't really I don't have like a big uh you know uh I can't do quantitative chemistry, I can't do anything like that. All the stuff we do, there's no real analytical work. It's all using principles and ideas with either standard uh kitchen cooking wear or things that we've repurposed as standard kitchen cooking wear. So when I'm using a centrifuge, I'm not using a centrifuge to do uh to analyze uh something. I'm using it to try and create a delicious product, right?
+
+[40:54] When I use a rotary evaporator, I mean, although I am purifying and distilling, I'm not doing it for the same reasons that a chemist does. It's not part of an analytical uh study, right? Or even a production uh uh of uh like a drug or something like that. So what I do is very specialized, and it's in and we read a lot of science, and I love science, and I do it and you know I I love it, but what we what I'm actually doing day to day is uh cooking. And so we're you know, we're what you have to do to kind of get to do the kind of stuff that I get to do is cook a lot.
+
+[41:26] You know, and so um, and not just with science and and and and tech stuff, just do a lot of cooking. You need to have a lot of cooking under under your belt. You need to love cooking, you need to love tasting, you need to taste everyone else's uh stuff, you need to be uh curious about um all different ingredients and uh what they do and and how they interact. You know, I think McGee said it best when he when he you know he wrote a book called The Curious Cook, and that's the name of his uh that's the name of his second book, sadly, out of print. Hopefully he brings it back into print.
+
+[41:56] It's a very personal book, uh, and it basically just shows that you know what you need to be McGee is to well, what you need to be McGee is to be like a real sweetheart and also smart, uh, you know, very smart and also read a lot, but be very curious and be very observant about food. And that's you know what you really what you really need to do. The second part of it is you have to make friends in the food world. That's the sad truth. You know, you could sit around and be, you know, know a lot uh and do a lot, and if you don't have uh friends, it's hard to network and um get an actual job where someone will pay you.
+
+[42:28] Uh and so luckily nowadays it's a lot easier with the internet to get to know people and to become more known in these kinds of subjects because the subject matter, people it's a very s small group who you know care about uh technology cooking, but it's uh you know, you can kind of get in touch with them more than you used to. But of course the bar is higher than it was, you know, let's say six uh six years ago when I started uh you know doing this or five years ago when I started working at the French culinary, there were fewer people who were known for doing it, and the the bar to entry was lower. Um so anyway, that's what I recommend. Cook a lot, uh get to know some people in the food world uh and you know, eat a lot and cook a lot. That's basically the answer.
+
+[43:08] And while we get to it, uh he says, Thank you for putting your experimentation online. It's been a pleasure reading about them, and hopefully I can try some of them eventually. Uh again, thank you for the compliment. And I will say we apologize uh yet again for the lack of posting we've had recently uh recently. We've been uh very busy, very, very, very busy, and uh working on some new ventures.
+
+[43:28] So I am now officially March 1st going to basically be starting my own consulting company, uh, which is we've been working on, which is why we haven't been posting so much. I'm still gonna be the director of culinary technology at the French Culinary Institute. I'm still gonna be teaching classes, and I am still going to be uh maintaining uh cooking issues as the French Culinary Institute's uh cooking blog. Uh and you'll be happy to note people who bother me about not posting that I will be contractually obliged to write one post a week or at least four a month. Uh but uh it allows us to do some other fun stuff, like we can take on outside people if they want to work, do stuff for cooking issues.
+
+[44:05] So if there's someone out there who is uh doesn't mind getting beaten down, because we'll beat you down, doesn't mind uh you know, who's a complete perfectionist uh when it comes to like thinking about things, right? Who you know what I mean, right, Nastasha? I mean I'm I'm a pain in the butt. You are a pain in the butt. Yeah, but you know, if you like the style, right?
+
+[44:23] And if you and if you if you think the way that that we think, uh, you know, then maybe you know if if it doesn't bother you spending you know a zillion years worried about what what's going on inside of a corn kernel during nixtimalization, well, you know, maybe maybe and you want to do this for little to no remuneration, maybe you too could work with cooking issues. And that's this week's cooking issues. Uh we hope to hear from you next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[45:06] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. And the guest can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Sometimes just getting through the day feels like a lot. And when you're overwhelmed, reaching out for help can feel impossible. You may wonder if it will even make a difference. Here at Rogers, we meet you in that moment with personalized care for anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, depression, and substance use. One step at a time with compassion and support.
+
+[0:19] At Rogers Behavioral Health, one step can change everything. Visit Rogersbh.org or call 800-767-4411 for a free screening. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, and we're here with Nastasha the Lopez Hammer. Just phoned back from Miami just this morning.
+
+[0:50] Call in all of your questions too. Nastasha, give them the number. 718 suppose. Aha. Brutal.
+
+[0:58] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Hammer the Nastasha Lopez, huh? I know it, I know. She doesn't even have our number in her brain, huh?
+
+[1:11] Anyway, coming to you live for the next 45 minutes or so. Uh today's uh episode is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free-range, all-natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. Since 1865, which is a long time ago, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the Central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape.
+
+[1:35] For more information, go to www.hurstranch.com. We've had their beef and it's uh it's quite good, right, Nastasha? Yes, Dave. All right. So, um, we actually I got back, what, yesterday?
+
+[1:47] Day before yesterday, Nastasha just got back. We were at the uh Miami South Beach Food and Wine Festival. I was doing a uh thing majig for the Liberty Science Center, which is having an exhibition on cooking, which is gonna open up in the fall, the science of cooking, which is gonna be very interesting. Chris Young from uh the new Modernist Cuisine Cookbook was uh doing it with me, and we were basically fluffing for the food network stars, you know, like uh Guy Fieri and uh Rachel Ray and uh Tyler Florence and you know the Ace of Cakes and uh Giada and all these people were were coming out to do a show for uh the kids and their parents, and we would sit there and uh do some some science questions, fluff them up a little bit. But it was fun.
+
+[2:25] We had uh a bunch of little kids ask us about uh liquid nitrogen. I had a kid ask me if uh agar agar was a chemical. I was so jacked, so when asked me that question, I got to go off on one of my favorite tangents about how uh you know a cow is a bag of chemicals, etc. etcetera. Uh so it was a it was a lot of fun.
+
+[2:40] But the most important part of the entire thing was that we got to visit some rare fruit fruit places, tropical fruit places in South Florida. So those of you that know me know I'm kind of a uh a temperate uh fruit nut. Uh Nastasha and I have gone sampled pears at the Kent at the Broedale, a couple hundred varieties. I've done uh a couple hundred varieties of apples at the uh Geneva station, the uh agricultural experiment station up in upstate New York. Uh anyway, I'll go anywhere to semper uh sample um a whole boatload of uh temperate fruits.
+
+[3:11] We've done s semi-tropical stuff. Nastasha and I did citrus uh you know almost a year ago at uh Gene Lester's ranch out in uh Watsonville, California, a couple hundred varieties there. Of we only tasted a hundred though, you know, so anyway. But uh we've never done full-on hardcore tropical fruit. So South of Miami, right at the very tip of uh Florida in South Dade.
+
+[3:32] There are two places we visited that uh are simply amazing and worth a visit. Um one of them is the Fairchild. Now Fairchild uh has been a garden for a long time that has many, many different varieties. They store many different varieties of tropical fruit, citrus and otherwise. Um we visited not their show garden but their kind of actual tree garden.
+
+[3:49] Unfortunately, most of the stuff we wanted to taste there, like mangoes and jackfruits aren't in season right now. So we're gonna have to go back and we are gonna go back. Uh Chris Young, uh Nastasha, Harold McGee, and I are going back to there in July to the Mango Festival, and we're gonna we're gonna eat mangoes until we die or they kick us out of the park, one of the two. And jackfruit, because they also have, I think like 75 varieties of jackfruit, which we're going to, you know, eat until we're all jacked up as they say. But the second place that you need to visit, less well known in South Dade, is the fruit and spice park, the Miami Dade County Fruit and Spice Park.
+
+[4:21] And we had a an amazing tour of that place. And they have you just pay, I don't know what the entrance fee is, not that much. You pay, you go in and you could take a tour if you want, and you just eat a preposterous amount of the most the craziest uh tropical fruit. So of the stuff that we had in season, I think there's one called uh Jipoticaba. Sounds like chupacabra, but it's not, it's Jipoticaba.
+
+[4:42] And it's they look like little grapes, but they taste musky and they grow on the actual bark of the tree. So the tree like the little tree shrub tree is growing there, and it and the little grapey things are growing right on the bark, and it tastes kind of like a grape with uh a little bit of a muskiness. Another really amazing one is uh canistel. Canistel they call like almost like a it's similar to uh the Lucama, which is the fruit that's uh famous in Peru that I've had shipped up kind of uh preserved, which I didn't like at all. Um because isn't that that stuff that we were given that we didn't like at all?
+
+[5:13] I don't think so. I think the preserved stuff from was it Peru or chili that we were given? Yeah, no, I think. Anyway, I think that was Lucama, no? No.
+
+[5:19] I just threw it out. All right. Uh but Canistelle uh has it almost a taste of a sweet potatoes and uh kind of an egg, custardy fruit, amazing stuff, and it makes it fantastic ice cream. If you're in uh Whole Foods in South Dade, by the way, you should go to uh get Gabby, Gabby's ice cream. She makes some amazing ice cream with both canistel and the next thing I'm about to tell you about, which is black sapote.
+
+[5:41] Black sapote they call like the chocolate pudding fruit. And you cut it in half and it's dark and it looks kind of like chocolate pudding, but it's super creamy and makes us like an it makes I think an amazing ice cream. You like the ice cream, right, Nastasha? It was good. Yeah, it was very good ice cream.
+
+[5:53] So, anyway, uh please, if you're ever in South Dade, uh go visit the fruit and spice park. And if you're from Miami and you've never been to the fruit and spice park, you should just jump out of your window right now. If you're spending all of your time like, you know, being all pumped and tan on South Beach like a moron, you should get out of there and go to the fruit and spice park because it's a lot more rewarding. I have to say the whole South Beach thing, not my style about you, Nastasha. Did you enjoy the actual South Beach?
+
+[6:16] No, I don't like South Beach very much. No. All right. Now, on to the questions. So from a couple of weeks.
+
+[6:22] Oh, by the way, the reason I missed uh last week's show, I was in Seattle, uh, actually Bellevue, Washington, at the lab of Nathan Mirvold, the Microsoft uh billionaire uh food nut who, along with Chris Young and you know, uh you know 13 other people, uh, have for the past four or five years been tolling uh toiling away at the modernist cuisine cookbook, which I believe is just released now, actually shipping now from Amazon.com. So you and about 450 of your closest friends, that means 450 dollars, can go on Amazon and purchase uh you know the modernist cuisine, which is I think six volumes or something like that. Uh it you know, I I know some of the stats from visiting them. It weighs like 40 pounds, 10, you know, four pounds of it of is ink. It's got like, you know, the greatest ink ever made.
+
+[7:11] There's only like two factories on earth, uh, two printing houses on earth that can do the printing that they that they can do. Anyway, amazing cookbook. So I flew out there to Seattle to have a dinner at uh Nathan's lab. Uh and uh it was it was it was really it was awesome, awesome experience. We uh I'll I'll probably we'll probably blog about it if I ever have time.
+
+[7:31] Remember uh for those of you that are are angry at me for not writing more blog posts, starting tomorrow I'm contractually obliged to have a post a week. So you know you have that to look forward to anyway. But so Dave we got an email question. You have an email question? All right well after the bre I'll read it during the break and then we'll well I'll see whether I know the answer to it.
+
+[7:48] So the um so anyway so I'm sitting there at the place and the taxi that's supposed to come take me to the airport uh I missed missed didn't come so came like 20 minutes late had problem insecurity missed my airplane back to New York by one minute and slept in the Seattle airport because I was too pissed off and tired to actually go back to anyone's uh anyone's house or anything like that. Uh I I later found out that all all of our friends you know uh had stayed on at the dinner and partied till 4 a.m while I was busy being pissed off in the airport but there you have it. Anyway, so um on to the questions. A couple weeks ago someone uh called in I believe and said what's going on in preserved lemons what is it that causes them uh to you know be preserved and you know what is it it's probably is it a bacteria is it whatever uh and I didn't know the answer I was you know wholehearted you know whole full on stumped and the answer uh I forget the name of the person who called in but the answer is yeasts so uh I looked online for it and it is uh a couple strains of yeast that are involved in the preserved lemons that can survive the saltiness of that environment and give the uh preserved lemons their characteristic flavor. I then conferred with uh Harold McGee when I saw him out at the um when I saw him out at the at the Nathan Miraville dinner, and he agreed that yes, he had heard uh it was a yeast and it makes sense to him, so that's the answer.
+
+[9:05] It is a yeast. Okay. Now, uh on to the first of this week's questions. Josh from Somerset England writes in, he says, I was very interested in the article on rapid infusion on the cooking issues site. What I'd like to know is can the what what are we supposed to say?
+
+[9:22] ISI or EC? E C D. EC. Well, uh uh well, what I'd like to know is can the EC soda siphon be used to do the technique instead of the whipper? Quite simply, I've wanted both for a long time, but can only really justify getting one or the other because of money and space, etc.
+
+[9:36] What are the advantages and disadvantages? Is it best to use a one liter or a half liter for home use? And he he uh pumps us up and says, the technique is genius. I wish I could tend the fundraiser to discover more things like this. Keep up the good work.
+
+[9:47] Well, thank you very much for the kind words. And uh if you can only buy one, in fact, if you can only buy two, just get the just get the whippers. I wouldn't bother getting the uh the soda siphons. The soda siphons are really specialized, and most of the time when we're doing first of all, soda siphons have a very thin neck, uh, so it's hard to get a lot of stuff uh into them. Uh second of all, soda siphons they draw from the bottom.
+
+[10:11] So really they're only good if you're like a big three stooges fan and you like to spray people in the face with seltzer, or if you're gonna keep the seltzer in the bottle for a long time and keep it in the fridge. Most of the techniques we do, I'm pouring all of the stuff out right away, and I find that you can actually lose quite a bit of the carbonation as you spray out uh through the spray head on a on one of those siphons. So for a number of reasons, even if I was going to carbonate with one of those things, I would never carbonate with the soda siphon. I actually carbonate with the um with the with the whip with the whipper. The only difference is um that you know you have to shake it more to get the CO2 in.
+
+[10:47] If you really wanted to, it wanted to make it act more like uh a soda siphon, as you put the cartridge in, you could hold it upside down, and then the CO2 would rocket through the drink as it goes up, which is basically all the only thing that the soda siphon's accomplishing for you. Soda siphon is also harder to clean. So I would I would only buy whippers. I would even carbonate, like I say, if you were going to carbonate in one of those, which I don't really recommend, but if you're gonna do that, I would carbonate in the whippers. So I would I would buy only whippers.
+
+[11:12] I think they're uh just a superior, superior product all around, the the cream whippers. Um, uh as to the one liter or the half liter uh for home use, it look if you're gonna do a lot of drinks, then I would get the and you're gonna carbonate them, I would get the liter. If you're gonna be doing a lot of rapid infusion, you're just gonna go through a couple more chargers, either that or you're gonna have to infuse into more product if you have if you have the liter one. So, you know, I we write all of our recipes for the half-liter ones because we're doing lots of tests and they don't scale exactly. So you can use either one, but just be aware that if you use a liter whipper with a smaller amount of product in it, you're gonna have to probably throw an extra charger into it.
+
+[11:54] So you're gonna have the expense of using extra chargers if you're using the liter as opposed to the half liter. But both will work. Uh what do you think? What do you think about that? Is that uh that's a good answer, dude.
+
+[12:03] All right. Josh also says, uh P. S. I love James Brown as much as the next guy, but surely you've got another C D you can play. Well, uh it's interesting you should uh say that, Josh, because someone else uh emailed uh just the same week and said that they uh enjoyed the James Brown because it's exactly uh um in sync with their treadmill as they're listening to the podcast.
+
+[12:26] So now I've got uh uh a for and an against on the James Brown. I could come up with a different James Brown song, perhaps. Uh or I could I could possibly move to something a little less funky, like a Merle Haggard or something like this. I'm not sure. What are your thoughts, Nastasha?
+
+[12:39] Should we stick with the James Brown? I didn't know we were allowed to change our our middle theme. Maybe we're not allowed to change our theme music, but we can change our middle music. I don't know. What do you think?
+
+[12:48] What are your thoughts? Any any thoughts? No thoughts. No thoughts. Nastash is too tired coming in off of the uh question.
+
+[12:55] Well, not answer my questions. What do you mean? I had a question. You're just sitting there staring into space. I don't know if you're about to have an answer or if you're in a a catatonic state over here.
+
+[13:04] She Nastasha literally had to get up at oh dark thirty this morning, and she's pounding coffee as we speak, trying to text all the people that were texting her when she's on the plane and like in in Super Spaceland. So I have to answer her questions for her because she looks to be frank, stunned. Anyway, uh okay. Uh Cho, and I don't know, I assume that's a last name, Cho, uh writes in this first name? Cho?
+
+[13:26] Okay, Cho writes in and uh in all caps, by the way, so Cho seriously wants an answer. What temperature should I poach an egg at? Okay. Cho. This is a uh I'm assuming you have an immersion circulator, which I'm sure most of our read you know listeners know.
+
+[13:40] An immersion circulator is something that keeps the temperature of water exactly accurate. Uh you can buy one at William Sonoma, uh, we love them, etc. etc. Um so what temperature you should cook the egg to really depends on what you're looking to do. The f the lowest temperature we ever cook an egg to is 62 degrees Celsius, which is 143 and a half in Fahrenheit land.
+
+[14:02] And that is a runny poached egg. Okay. Um so that's like, you know, you're gonna put on eggs benedict, whatever. You cook it in the shell uh for an hour. You can actually get away with 45 minutes, but you know, you cook it an hour, and then after that hour, you drop the temperature down to uh like 60 or 59 degrees, and then it can sit there for hours and hours and hours.
+
+[14:22] And then when the time comes, you just crack the egg out, and uh the thin white separates from the thick white, and you have a perfectly poached egg. If you're gonna serve it as is and you want it to look a little more the white to look a little brighter white and well done, you can put it through simmering water at on its way out to service. Now, uh that is gonna be 95% of all the eggs you do. If you want a little bit creamier in the inside, you don't want it runny, then you cook it to uh 63 degrees Celsius, which is 145.5 for an hour on the dot, and then you lower the uh these are for large eggs, large chicken eggs, then you lower the temperature down to 60 again, and that is a creamy egg yolk. It still will run, but it's very, very creamy, good for a consomme.
+
+[15:02] If you want it just set but still very soft and creamy, 64 Celsius, 147 uh Fahrenheit is what you should go. If you want uh also for an hour, if you want something that is kind of like a hard-boiled egg, but uh not, then I would uh put it in simmering water for uh like four minutes, uh five minutes, something like this, then put it into 70 degrees Celsius water, 158 Fahrenheit, for about an hour, and the yolk will be perfectly yellow and creamy, it won't smell like an overcooked egg, and you'll have a perfect uh hard boiled egg. Um if you want a uh interesting thing, Ervaties, who uh writes a lot of books on uh the science of cooking, all of them I think bad and wrong. He uh, he uh and by the way, Ts is spelled this. If you're looking for it, don't write T-E-E-S in the Google, write Erve this, because that's how he spells his name.
+
+[15:55] Erveteis has written and said that the 65 degrees Celsius, 149 degrees uh Fahrenheit is the perfect kind of poached egg because, and this just goes to show you how little he thinks about things, uh, he puts his eggs in the or I was told this by someone who saw him run the experiment. He puts his eggs in what he calls a very highly calibrated oven. Now, anyone who's ever cooked an egg in a circulator knows that 65 degrees Celsius is not a uh is not a runny egg. Um and it's because there's evaporative cooling out of the eggshell. Uh in fact, you can use this.
+
+[16:28] You can do MIARD uh reaction Hamine eggs in the oven by cooking them in the shell in the oven, and as they evaporate, the alkalinity of the egg goes up and they go uh they undergo browning reactions in the oven, even without a pressure cooker. So uh the evaporative cooling alone is enough to drop the temperature of the egg as it's cooking uh by about uh two or three degrees to get a runny egg yolk, and so Erva Tis chew on that one. In fact, he did a demo at the French Culinary Institute five years ago, um, and he he had us set up a bunch of circulators to cook us eggs, and he said all of these eggs are two degrees off. And the reason is is because he did all of his initial tests in an oven. Just because to show you what he knows.
+
+[17:07] Anyway, uh let's go to our first commercial break. Call in all your questions to uh 718. What is it? 4972128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[17:18] Cooking issues. So much bone brother. Call your name. I don't want to know if people know you're in, yeah. I feel fellow!
+
+[17:28] Head down! Sure getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk good time. We're gonna have a bunk good time.
+
+[17:43] We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. Don't take them up, Brand. We gotta take you high. Yeah, let's go on.
+
+[18:04] We gotta take the high brother. Now I won't have a body. Let's bread blow up by two cores. And then I wanna wave me and let's go into it. Now alright.
+
+[18:24] I'm gonna get that belly with a little horn over there. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to the Speakeasy every Wednesday at 3 p.m. where host Damon Bolti will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid universe. With guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between.
+
+[18:50] Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, bar history, distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[19:12] That's 718-497-2128. So uh the email question uh came in and said that when I when I was in Seattle, did I get a chance to visit Armandino Batale's um Salumi place and where do I rank him in kind of American ham producers? Now, this is an interesting question. So Armandino Batali is, in fact, uh Mario Batali's dad. He was a it's a real interesting case because uh he he used to be a chemical engineer, I believe at Boeing, but I'm I I can't remember.
+
+[19:40] I interviewed him a number of years ago for uh an article I was doing on uh House Cured Meats at uh for Food Arts magazine. And he as a scientist has very like uh you know, very keyed into safety and proper techniques and it and uh and a really interesting guy, but I've only ever had his products at um at some Batali restaurants. I didn't get a chance to go there when I went out. I wish I had had the time. I was basically I would have been in and out had I made my airplane.
+
+[20:07] Instead I was in and uh stayed, you know, stayed over, unfortunately, in the airport. So I didn't get a chance to try uh basically any of the really interesting places out there with the exception of Nathan Mirvol's, which was quite interesting. Um I don't really I I wish I had more to more to say on it. The one thing I will say is as far as I can tell, uh, and I've never had his famous uh lamp prosciutto either, uh, but as far as I can tell, uh he's not doing an American style of product. He's doing more of an Italian style of product, and so I wouldn't I wouldn't try to rank him alongside of uh of American producers uh, you know, like uh Sam Edwards or Alan Benton or uh Nancy Mahaffey, which Nancy Mahaffey is from uh Colonel Newsom's or you know, pe people of that of that nature or like uh Finchville Farms.
+
+[20:54] I mean, they the the these are what I consider a American products. They're making American country hams, which I consider to be fundamentally different from European style products. The you know, the the temperature that they're that they're done at is is different. American hams are typically aged at a much higher temperature uh after they go through their equalization process. So I just I I wouldn't rank them I wouldn't rank them together.
+
+[21:14] But uh the products of his that I've had I thought were very, very good. Um so next time I go out to Seattle, I will be sure to have uh I'll be sure to go to the site and have uh a whole boatload of uh Armandito Batales uh products. Okay, so uh I had a question come in that says, I'm interested in cooking steak sous vide, but I have a question on searing methods. Uh it is obviously possible to use a super hot skillet, grill, or broiler. Uh you forgot deep fryer, which is my favorite way to do it, um, to uh sear, but what about a blowtorch?
+
+[21:49] At focus points it can reach a much higher temperature than any of the other techniques, meaning more pink inside and crispier, more caramelized outside. When you say caramelized, I'm assuming you mean my yard because it's not actually caramel, but you know, we all say caramelized. I'm just saying in case anyone's a stickler. In case Jeffrey Steingarden ever listens to this, he'll call up and scream if I don't say that. So you know it's just the only reason I'm saying it.
+
+[22:07] Also, this might be a way to achieve an even uh Myard reaction on meats that are not of uniform thickness or dimensions. A third advantage is that sear if searing is taking place before the water bath, then a more shallow searing depth would cause the meat to contract less, opening the way for uh non-traditional cuts of meat. Uh, and this comes in from Justin. Okay. Uh now he also says that could you use uh some welding equipment, and if so, what kind of welding equipment would you use?
+
+[22:31] Now here are my thoughts on torches. Uh first of all, when we're searing, of course, we sear before and after, and the reason we sear both before and after is we sear before to kill some of the bacteria on the outside. We're talking about low temperature cooking, by the way. So you cook something to the to the temperature you want it. So if I'm cooking a steak to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, I have a water bath at 130 degrees Fahrenheit, and the steak is perfectly cooked all the way through.
+
+[22:53] I mean it's great technique. Um typically I would sear it beforehand to start crust development, start flavor development, kill bacteria on the outside. By the time it comes out of the water bath, the crust is gone, and so you sear it again to put a nice crust on it. The trick is when you're searing it, as uh Justin says, you need a very high temperature because you don't want to overcook the meat. So the way I usually do that is by dropping the temperature of the bath a bunch.
+
+[23:16] So if I'm cooking at 55, I'll drop the bath to 50 degrees Celsius for like 30 minutes before I sear it, so that I drop the whole temperature down and I can sear it really hard without overcooking the meat. And that's in general how I accomplish it. Here are my thoughts on torches in general. First of all, I wouldn't go and use if you mean by welding equipment, straight up acetylene. I wouldn't use acetylene because if your mix is not exactly first of all, acetylene is ridiculously hot, absurdly hot.
+
+[23:44] There's a famous guy when uh when um they were building the spirit of St. Louis, uh, you know, Lindbergh's airplane, uh, the guy at Ryanair, Ryan was the company that built the spirit of St. Louis, he used to cook fish on with uh acetylene torches on pieces of aluminum, but by all accounts they tasted god awful like fuel. I have never cooked with acetylene, although I have a torch somewhere. Uh yeah, I haven't fired up the acetine in a long time.
+
+[24:07] But my feeling is that acetylene probably wouldn't be uh a good call. Um, the commercially most people use uh propane and uh butane torches. Now, the problem with propane and butane torches is that if in unless you have a special source of the gas, they add uh odorants, things that smell to them, so that you can smell if there's a leak, right? And typically they're adding uh either methylmercaptain or ethylmorcaptain or some group of mercaptins, also known as like methana methanothiol. These are they're sulfur-containing compounds.
+
+[24:37] You can smell in very minute quantities. If they're not completely combusted, right, they tend to uh stink up your product and you have what we call torch taste. All right. Now, the more fat there is on a on a product, right, the more you can smell the torch taste. So things that aren't very fatty tend not to pick up a lot of torch taste, but things that are high in fat tend to pick up a lot of this torch taste.
+
+[25:01] Now there are two ways you can get rid of torch taste. You can either use a gas that doesn't have any of these odorants in them, but they're kind of hard to find. That's why a lot of pipe um pipe uh lighters and cigar lighting butane that are very clean butanes, those butane torches tend to smell less uh because they I think have little less of that product in them. The other thing you can do is make sure that your torch has complete combustion. So some torches are much better than others at completely combusting.
+
+[25:25] Most of the torches that we use in our in our houses, like the the propane torches, aren't very good at it, and so you get a lot of a lot of torch taste. You can take and fire that torch through a grid, heat up the grid, and then that will um basically um enhance the combustion of these things and cause you not to have a torch taste. But it tends we use the chinois, but it tends to ruin your chinois. So I had some nichrome wire, and that also works, but then you gotta go buy some nicrome wire. Chris Young of the Modernist Cuisine uh cookbook, I was asking him about it.
+
+[25:56] He uses map gas, MAPP gas. I don't know if they add an odorant to it or not, but map gas can be purchased at Home Depot. It's a lot hotter. Now, if you want to go really balls out on this, right, I have used a roofing torch with a propane tank as a searing uh device uh as a test. Uh the the problem with a roofing torch is a roofing torch will light your whole uh kitchen on fire if you're not if you're not careful.
+
+[26:21] But uh I was able to get a complete enough combustion with a roofing torch, so I said I had no torch taste at all. I scorched the entire work surface that the thing was on, and it was hard to get an even uh crust on it, but I did get it to work. So, first of all, that's the first problem. You have torch taste. The second problem is that I think certain Myard reactions, um, you you don't want it too too hot.
+
+[26:42] I haven't been able to run experiments yet to figure out what the maximum heat that you want is. But I don't think that the Myard products you get from a hyper-intense heat like a torch are the same as the ones you get from a more normal kind of uh heat. So I don't think that it's the same. And also, you don't really want a just a thin layer of black on the outside of a product. For a real crunchy, uh like really crunchy, crispy crust, you need a certain depth of crutch crust formation.
+
+[27:08] And if you did that with a torch, you'd have to either be very, very gentle or you'd you'd um basically incinerate the top while you were getting that that thickness of crust that you wanted. I also tend to find that torching is really uneven in terms of its distribution, so even though theoretically you can get all the pieces evenly, it's hard to get an even torch job. So if you look at a torch sear, often you'll see spots that are darker than others, which isn't as pleasant as as you could be. Now, maybe you could get around that by using something giant, but then it's easy to go overboard uh really quickly. So I tend to only use the torch as a touch-up in areas like if you have a bird like around the thigh area uh or around like where the wings are, sometimes you can lose a little there, and I'll do a little touch-up, but I tend not to use them as my primary uh searing um searing thing, right?
+
+[27:55] Um so anyway, that's my that's my feelings on it. Uh now maybe we should uh go to our second commercial break and I'll boot up the rest of the questions. So let's go to our second commercial break and we'll be back in a minute. Give up the lamb of all the bread. You know what?
+
+[28:24] When I hear a groove like this, ooh. Oh say I got baby. Yeah. Yeah. Black way of young man.
+
+[28:45] Look at you. So we got a groove like this. You know? No. I need to grit.
+
+[29:08] Need to grit. You know. I believe hey, hey, Brad Dumbled. Brother. I'm getting ready to wave y'all in.
+
+[29:20] You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down. In order for me to get down, I got to get in D. In order for me to get down, I gotta get in D.
+
+[29:33] Need to get in D. Dog the D. Down D. Here we go. Down D.
+
+[29:41] Get it D. Ready? Boom! Come on, do it. Oh, I love that.
+
+[29:48] I love it. Alright. Since this is the second time I've allowed to have my down D in the middle, uh, we'll maybe we'll change it. So now that you guys know how awesome the down D is, you know, you can just go listen to it on your own and we'll get it we'll get a different song for the uh for the thing. I think I can think about making a video.
+
+[30:04] The down D is good for this. I'm not gonna do hollow notes, Nastasha. What do you want to do? You want to do uh Meneater? What?
+
+[30:12] What which one do you want to do? Genesis. Oh, we will not do Genesis. This is one thing I know we will not do. Alright.
+
+[30:19] No offense. No offense to Genesis fans. I mean, uh, you know, Nastash is more of a Phil Collins invisible touch or Susudio kind of a kind of a girl, I think. That's my feeling on Nastasha. So call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[30:33] That's 718-497-2128. Well, you know, if we're gonna do Genesis, you want to do like that's all. Remember that song, That's All? Sing it, no. I'm not gonna sing.
+
+[30:41] There's no way on earth I'm gonna sing it. No way. Anyway. Okay. Uh I have a question coming in from Hawaii, I think.
+
+[30:48] Uh Aaron Melvin calls in. I assume it's from Hawaii because Aaron grows Lilicoy. And uh what that is, is a Hawaiian passion fruit. And actually, we had some delicious passion fruit down at uh in Miami at uh Gabby's farm, right? Of course, I didn't really get to taste it because Nastasha pounded the whole thing.
+
+[31:05] Whatever. Okay, we have a rather extreme overabundance uh of Lilicoy in our garden and oh yeah, in Molokai's in uh Hawaii, which I wish I could go. Uh someday we will get to go. A nice problem to have. Uh I've recently made uh Lilikoi souffle and little coi creme brulee.
+
+[31:19] Both were delicious and intensely flavored, but the texture is not perfect as the dairy was just beginning to curdle. Since the dairy is already high fat, I'm not sure where to turn to try and prevent curdling without reducing the intensity of the lilicoy. I could try mixing some cornstarch into the dairy before combination with the liloquoy juice, but would you recommend another hydrocolloid technique? Um certainly in my somewhat off-the-cup cuffed attempts, uh, these could have used a bit more structure or solidity. Now, uh, you could use something like you could uh pre uh gel pre-gel the uh dairy or add it to add a little bit of carrageenin uh to it.
+
+[31:51] Carrageenan and locust bean gum. If you add carragaean and locust bean gum, these are the same stabilizers that are used in ice creams. Um I would use uh probably if you don't want it too firm, I would use uh iota uh carrageen, and that's gonna be more pudding-y, and if you want it a little firmer, you can use kappa, which is rigid. But I wouldn't use kappa actually in a high acid situation. First of all, you don't want it rigid, and second of all, uh in a high acid situation, it there's a possibility that there might be some carcinogenic uh action with carrageenin at very low pH.
+
+[32:22] Um, but it hasn't been proved yet. But I tend to stay away from kappa carrageenin at low pH. But you could use uh, I think some uh iota carrageenin and LBG, and and that should take you somewhat closer to stopping it from curdling. But if that's not working for you, cornstarch should also uh prevent it from breaking. But cornstarch will definitely stop.
+
+[32:40] I know cornstarch will definitely stop egg yolks from uh from curdling when they're overheated because uh why that's how Wiley uh makes his um that's how Wiley makes his um his mayonnaise his Hollandaise sauce. He adds uh enough starch to the egg yolk so that he can heat it up without uh curdling the egg yolks. So uh any of those techniques would work. So hopefully, you know, you could you could try one of those things, and hopefully someday we can go to Hawaii and try some of these things. Anyway, uh he also tried uh to make methylcel F50 meringues uh with his uh lilicoy, and we actually use regular passion fruit puree a lot.
+
+[33:12] F50 is a product that uh is a whipping agent. You can make mousses with it like uh almost like shaving cream, very dense mouses, um and they act like egg whites and they can be whipped. And so what you do is you make a meringue out of something like a puree, a passion fruit puree, let's say, or lilocoi puree, and then you uh you just put it on a dehydrator and you and you dehydrate them and they turn into into crunchy meringues. Uh in his oven, because it's so humid there, they got uh kind of dense uh and not super uh crunchy, but then he he hit it with uh he brûle lay the top of it to add it more crunch, and he says it makes uh an excellent pavlova base, and I'm glad that worked out for you. I think that's a genuinely delicious technique.
+
+[33:52] Uh he also says he was glad to hear our thoughts on chocolate tempering from two weeks ago. Have we ever experimented with sous vide tempering? So basically the idea is um by the way, yes, it works. There are people that do it. I haven't done it.
+
+[34:05] So what you can do is instead of if you have chocolates in to old school traditional tempering techniques, assume, like you know, where you where you um you know, where you have to go through a bunch of different steps, are for taking chocolate that's not in temper and bringing it into temper. If you have chocolate that is already in temper and you just want to melt it and keep it in temper, uh then you can just throw it in a in a sous vide bag, vac it down, throw it in water, uh, and set it exactly the melting point you want, and it's gonna work uh fine. You can also actually do the the temperature ramps uh in a bag by moving them around if you if you wanted to. The one issue with it, and people do this and they can keep it in temper a long time because the temperature is very accurate within a couple tenths of a degree. Uh the problem is you gotta make sure that when you take it out, that you take it out and you don't get any water and the chocolate off the bag because there's a lot of it's easy to mess things up that way.
+
+[34:55] So I would put it into something that's easy to get something out of. Like I would seal your chocolate into a pastry bag instead of into a regular bag when you're when you're working. But yes, it would be uh uh basically an attention free way of doing it. Okay. Uh Pepperoni Bill, which is an awesome name.
+
+[35:10] I haven't gotten a chance to check out Pepperoni Bill's website yet, but Pepperoni Bill is it's gotta be one of the better names, like the one of the better handles that people use on the internet. Do they still say handle or is that only from the C B era? I think that's from the CB era, because I don't know what it is. Hey, you know what? Speaking of CB era, what if we move to Convoy is our as our song?
+
+[35:27] No. No? Mm-hmm. No? I love Convoy.
+
+[35:30] Anyway, uh Pepperoni Bill, uh basically just a comment. He says, um, love the show. James Brown music is perfect sync with his uh uh with his treadmill walk. So he's the he's the James Brown lover. He'll be at the Pizza Expo in Las Vegas March 1st through 3rd.
+
+[35:43] Just wonder if you guys had any plans of attending. If not, we'll have to meet some other way. Maybe you can come to my pizza joint someday when I finally open one. Well, seeing as now it is March 1st right now, and we were not in the Pizza Expo in Las Vegas, no, but we hope that you were having an excellent time at the Pizza Expo. I wish I could be at the Pizza Expo because I love myself some pizza, but uh I've also never been to Vegas, you?
+
+[36:04] Yeah, it's bad. You wouldn't like it. I wouldn't like it. No, yeah. Yeah, I'm I don't know.
+
+[36:10] Yeah, I'm I'm weird that way. Anyway, so uh Pepperoni Bill, let us know how it is. Okay, Alan from DC writes in, been a fan of the podcast for a while, uh, as a fan of food science, and he's decided it's time to start playing with some of the fun techniques that we talk about. Uh he has the ability to build a basic immersion circulator, but wanted to know uh my thoughts on what is needed. His understanding is that uh he needs a heat source, a simple fan, and a control feedback loop.
+
+[36:34] Um he says control loops are fun, I can handle that. What I want to know is how exact the temperature needs to be and what kind of fluctuations might be allowed. Are there interesting recipes that require changing the temperature part way through the preparation, and how precisely rapidly do these changes need to be? Any other thoughts on what my circulator needs to do? Uh Alan from DC.
+
+[36:52] Now, uh okay. So it's not a fan you need. If you want to build an immersion circulator, I mean if you want to build your own t temperature loop, that's great. But everyone uses basically what's called PID control, PID control, which is proportional uh integrative and derivative control, right? And so the this control uh loop technology, basically this control algorithm is allows you to go directly up to the temperature and not overshoot it, not porpoise around like a bang bang does, right?
+
+[37:20] And uh very, very few people write their own control loops. If you're good with a microprocessor, you can look up um someone for the Arduino wrote code to do uh um a PID loop um for his coffee maker and you can look up on the web under Sylvia P I D Arduino and there's code out there that you can write to help you write code to do it. But that's the only really method that people use accurately because it needs to not fluctuate around. So you don't want to use an onoff temperature control. You want to use PID, PID.
+
+[37:53] The other thing is it's not a fan that they use uh most people when they're building their own you can buy a small uh pump um you can buy a small pump that you know like one that's actually used in a circulator, but the vast majority of people use aquarium pumps. And you can either bubble air in which moves just moves around by bubbling air or you can actually pump water. And if you look online there the the the pump that people use to do recirculated mash RIMS for brewing there's a lot of there's a couple cheap pumps in the like fifteen dollar range that can handle it and can handle the temperatures and can pump a good amount of liquid because you need it to move around a lot. The other thing is you're gonna need um ever all the commercial circulators are a thousand watts. They're a thousand watts.
+
+[38:36] So you're gonna want about a thousand watts of heating. More heating is not going to hurt you. The problem is if you go over a thousand watts, you're gonna have to make sure that you have a plug that can handle it, right? So all the circulators that are built are basically built to go into a standard 15 amp plug. And once you go well, you know, over a thousand, you're gonna have to start worrying about it.
+
+[38:54] But if you have your own plug, you can make it as powerful as you want, and then it's gonna go up and down a lot faster. It's gonna be a lot more uh responsive. And so like these are the kinds of things that you need to uh these are the kind of things you need to do. I would I would say that you want your temperature to be within a couple of tenths of a degree. Um in terms of okay, so there's two things.
+
+[39:15] There's accuracy, accuracy, and there's precision, right? So the question is how accurate do you need to be? You need to be within about uh three tenths, I'd say, uh, of a degree Celsius accurate and precise. Okay, so accuracy is like how close are you to what the temperature you really want, and precision is how often can you repeat it. And as long as your accuracy is within like three tenths, you'll be able to recreate other people's recipes.
+
+[39:37] Now your precision should be dead on, like a tenth of a degree or so, because there's no reason for it not to be. And that's why you know speak to Philip Preston, who is the you know the guy who builds the circulators that we use from poly science. Um, he says, yeah, like even the old uh analog ones are extremely precise. Like once you set the knob on the analog one, it's gonna hit the same temperature all the time and stay there with very, very, very high degree of precision. It's just not accurate.
+
+[40:18] So you have to use a second thermometer to uh to to judge exactly where you are because it doesn't have uh a readout on um it doesn't have a readout on exactly how uh you know how hot it is. So those are my thoughts on building your own uh thing now I've built many um many of these in my time um what what I used to do was I would get like an you know they were all bad let's put it this way I've built like three or four of them and I now use the poly science one just because the homebrew ones are always how to put this a little bit of a pain in the butt right now the Philip uh well let me see so there there's when I was doing it I whenever I do anything it's totally ghetto spit bubblegum ridiculous like so what used to happen with me is I would get shocked like I used I didn't build one once where I used a bunch of those coffee heaters that cost like two bucks that you get at the dollar store even though it's at the dollar store they cost two bucks anyway you throw them into the thing you throw a bunch of them in and then when you go in to get your uh your eggs out of the circulator you know what happens yeah you get shocked like really badly shocked you know what I mean so that one was out the window I built another one where you know I I bought like a heater for like uh twenty bucks off a McMaster car and but it's just like now I have like wires sitting everywhere and like you know uh now that I have kids in my house I didn't want them running around with like these wires out everywhere but this is because I'm a moron and all I care about is functionality. There are people out online if you search like the make community or the instructable community or any one of these DIY sites there are people that know exactly what like plastic box like you know they're like go buy the Rubik's Cube not you know it's got to be this Rubik's cube because it's got the exact size box for the parts that they want and they then they can womp together one for you know under a hundred bucks, I think is the current going rate for everything you need, including, by the way, a pre-made PID controller with digital readout. In case, you know, in case you value your time and don't want to write your own code, you can now get one of these controllers for I think like 35 bucks. And they work, they work like like gangbusters.
+
+[42:18] The only other thing I'd say is uh when you're buying one and you're gonna have to control the heater. And there's two ways you can go. You can go with a regular relay, but the regular relay is gonna sit there going click, click, click, click. I hate that. So I go for what's called a solid state relay, and solid state relay uh is completely dead silent, and you can run it at whatever rate you want, and it never ever wears out, but they are more expensive.
+
+[42:42] So instead of like four bucks, five bucks, you're gonna spend like twenty bucks, something like that. Twenty bucks. Twenty bucks. But anyway, I would say go get the one for twenty bucks, just because that extra twenty dollars for that little bit of silence in your kitchen instead of having to click click. Let me put it this way.
+
+[42:57] My stove, right, can't run off a solid state relay uh relay because I'm actually opening and closing a solenoid valve for my uh for my I'm actually closing a solenoid valve for my my gas and it's irritating because it's like click, click, click. But luckily, most of the time when I'm running my oven, I'm making pizza. Go to go back to Pepperoni Bill's pizza question. I'm making pizza, and so I have it on full bore uh blast out mode so that I can get it up to 850 degrees and you know light light everything on fire, basically. Uh okay, so uh on my way out, I will say that uh you should all I I I wish that everyone had the money to go buy uh Nathan Mirvald and Chris Young's new modernist cuisine book.
+
+[43:38] They've already sold well over half of the initial printing and they've ordered uh another printing on it. Uh it is a pretty cool book. I am extremely jealous. I visited their lab. They have uh a water jet cutter, a crazy water jet cutter.
+
+[43:53] Like they have a scanning electron microscope, and by the way, Nathan has one at his house too, in case he should want to do in case you know he doesn't want to have to go into the office to do a scanning electron microscopy. You know, he can do his scanning electron microscopy at home, you know. You know, you know, he he they have a cr they have a crappy, awesome, like, you know, regular light microscope at the office because he wanted to keep his good one at work. So I don't know. Anyway, I'm extraordinarily jealous of the equipment they have.
+
+[44:17] But we had a really good time uh out at the meal there, and um I'm sure you'll be seeing about it. Uh, you know, that it's on Wired magazine. I think a lot of the things you can see, the kinds of things they were doing in in the meal. Oh, and I had their ultrasonic French fries. So Josh Azerski, uh, who you know he writes things, right?
+
+[44:33] He writes things, Josh Azersky. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, anyway, so he writes things. So he came back and he says, Yeah, he said, he doesn't talk that. Well, actually, he does kind of talk that way.
+
+[44:41] Yeah. So he goes, you know, you gotta, you know, Nathan Mirvold and you know, Chris Young's ultrasonic french fry is the world's greatest French fry. So I had the ultrasonic french fry, and the ultrasonic french fry was quite good. And I spoke to Nathan, they've done the SPL, he likes them, but he likes the ultrasonic one better. But um I have not yet published.
+
+[44:59] I want you guys to know this. On the blog, I have published my three-eighths inch uh SPL, that's my enzyme that I use recipe. I will place up, I mean, his French fry was very good. But I will place my new half inch, because he was a half-inch French fry guy. I will place my half-inch French fry up against it.
+
+[45:21] Uh, and we should also try maybe his ultrasonic technique along with our SPL technique to see whether we can do the double ridiculous Wam Damula of like uh of monstrosity french fry madness, because that might be the French fry to kill all french fries. But remember, there's no such thing as the perfect French fry because French fry is something that can always be improved. Alright, and that's cooking Issues. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:59] You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Foods USA.
+
+[46:28] In late March, Dan Andrea Patrick and the Heritage team are traveling to the coldest reaches of the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont to help the Cantor family tap sugar maple trees. Then the maple sap will flow down to the sugar house where it is boiled gently over a wood fire, just as it has been for generations. Just a few days later, this Great A Amber Syrup will be poured into the beautiful glass jugs and sent to you for pancakes, waffles, desserts, glazing hams, or just drinking by the spoonful. There's only a limited supply, so order today. Each one-liter bottle is $45, including delivery.
+
+[47:04] Delivery will be at the end of March, and we will notify you of the exact shipping date. Each shipment will include a CD explaining the whole process. You can also follow us on YouTube while we work and bottle. In the meantime, you can head over to the Heritage Radio Network Archives and listen to Linda Palaccio talk about maple syrup on her show A Taste of the Past, episode 12. For more information, visit www.heritagefoods USA.com.
+
+[47:29] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join Wine and Presarios Aaron Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco as they dish out on the latest industry news with winemakers and tastemakers on Heritage Radio Network's revamped wine show, Unfiltered. Erin Fitzpatrick, one of the first hosts on HRN with her program at the root of it, amps up the volume and unfiltered content with co-host Brian DeMarco in this 2011 Redux. True to the original format, Aaron and Brian will keep you abreast of current happenings and break down the news and global events, distilling complex into anecdotal stories that inspire. From media and political events to hailstorms in Argentina, no topic is out of bounds.
+
+[48:09] Tune in every week to hear them chat up the industry's biggest personalities and host on-air tastings with visiting ventors and the country's hottest smoliers. Whether you're an expert or an enthusiast, Unfiltered demystifies wine and lets you know what it really takes to get a bottle from the vineyard to your neighborhood wine shop. Unfiltered broadcasts live every Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. The following is a public service announcement from the Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[48:35] Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a nine-course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto, Sunday, March 27th. Their intent to kick start the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere. How will a cutting-edge chef handle the Paleolithic or a dish only using pre-Columbian ingredients?
+
+[49:01] What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome? The chefs include David Chang of Momafuku, Wiley Dufrain of WD-50, Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norrin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of Salumaria Rossi, Carlo Moraci of Robertas, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina Tozzi of Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh of Death and Company, Simon Ford of Perno Ricard, Damon Bolti of Prime Meats, and Evan Clem of BR Guest Restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the Museum of Food and Drink. Tickets are very limited and $250 per person.
+
+[49:41] To purchase tickets, please visit Mofad.eventbright.com. That's M-O-F-A-D.eventbright.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D.E-V-E-N-T V-R-I-T-E.com. Sponsored by Perno Ricard, Heritage Foods USA, Pat LaFreda Meats, Barter House Wines, Del Posto Restaurant.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery. Kane Vineyard and Winery supports heritage radio and the growing movement to change how Americans eat and how we think about our planet. For more information, visit www.cane5.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, the show where you call in with all of your cooking-related questions, technical or not. My name is Dave Arnold.
+
+[0:30] I'm here at host of Cooking Issues. Here with in the studio with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We'll be here for about the next 45 minutes or so.
+
+[0:45] So, uh anything anything new, Nastasha, before we get into our daily business? No. No? Alright, well, I'm gonna start with our weekly announcement about the upcoming fundraiser for the Museum of Food and Drink, the Get the Ball Rolling Fundraiser. There are still tickets available to, I think what's gotta be one of the coolest, coolest events, well, it's the coolest event we've ever run, of course.
+
+[1:04] It's the first event we've ever run. But uh, I mean it really is kind of a special thing. Go to uh www.mofatmofad.org and look it up. But we have Cesare Casella from Silomaria Rossi doing preserved meats. We have Dave Chang, we have Wiley Dufrain, we have Mark Ladner, we have our very own Carlo from Roberta's, Brooks Headley from Del Posto, Nils Norrin, our buddy, Christina Tozi, we have Damon Bolti from Prime Meats, Jamie Gordon from Prono Ricard, Kenta Goto from Pegu Club, along with Audrey Saunders from Pegu Club, Thomas Wall from Death and Company, and Evan Clem from BR Guests, all doing museum-themed cocktails and me.
+
+[1:43] I'm gonna be doing an Amoose Boosh. I'll have you know that in private I always refer to it as an Amuse Douche, but I'm aware that it's an Amooch Boosh, amusing the mouth. Uh I'll be doing an Amused Boosh myself, uh and lucky lucky people might taste a little bit of mana from heaven dissolved into uh cognac, right? Yes. It's gonna be daraus.
+
+[1:59] Anyway, uh there are still some tickets available, but buy them while they last. It's on Sunday, uh March 27th at 1 p.m. at Del Posto Restaurant, and it's the must-attend event of the season. Yes or no? Yes.
+
+[2:14] Yes. Alright. Okay. I'm gonna attend to some of our email questions. Ben wrote in and said that I mentioned I got a cheap PID controller, and a PID controller, for those of you that don't know, is a uh controller.
+
+[2:25] Usually we control temperature, but you can control anything with it. You can control humidity, you can control anything, pressure, anything with PID. Uh PID is a stands for proportional uh integrative and derivative, and it's a it's a uh control algorithm that uh allows you to very accurately get to a particular thing, let's say a temperature, without overshooting, uh without ever going over, and it just sits rock solid there. And it's become basically the norm for uh high-end temperature control these days. Immersion circulators have it, people uh make their coffee machines have it.
+
+[2:56] I mean it's just it's the thing to do. It used to be that you couldn't get one for a controller that is for less than a couple hundred dollars, but recently the price has come way down. The cheapest PID controller, Ben that I have seen uh comes from Aubur Instruments, A-U-B-E-R instruments, and they'll sell you a complete PID controller for about 35 bucks. Now I don't know if it's any good or not, but they'll sort send you one for about 35 bucks. I've used uh love controllers from Dwyer Instruments, they're gonna run like $89.
+
+[3:24] You can get the more uh the higher brand name ones like Fuji or Watlow for a couple hundred bucks, but I mean, from Aubur Instruments for 35 bucks, a couple dollars delivered, it's not such a bad deal. They all uh you can get them all basically so that they plug into uh 110 socket. That's not a that's not a problem. One thing I would look for with them is uh if you can spend a little extra money and get one with a solid state relay as opposed to a regular relay for the output, I think you're gonna be uh a little happier. It's gonna be quieter and it's gonna be longer lasting.
+
+[3:54] You just want to make sure that whatever you're running, uh you can drive the amount of current that you need. So if you're gonna be making, let's say an immersion circulator, it's not gonna need more than about a thousand watts. So you're really not gonna need more than about 10 amps through it. But you want to make sure that the controller can handle about 10 amps, and then you're gonna be okay. So, Ben, I hope that answers your question.
+
+[4:16] Um let's go to another question. Uh we have from Ryan writes in about creme de violette, and I know Nastasha detests creme de violette. I'm actually not such a big fan myself of creme de violette, although I have uh had it. Ryan's interested in creme de violette specifically because of the cocktail, uh gin-based cocktail, the aviation that uses it, uh, famously uses it. And so he says, Um, regarding creme de violette, I love the classic cocktail, the aviation, and to be properly remained uh made, this requires creme de violette.
+
+[4:45] Sadly, my state of Ohio doesn't allow it distributed in the state at the moment. And while I'm sure I could order a bottle online and pay shipping, we're only about a month away from violet season here in Ohio, so why not make it? I've looked for a recipe to make creme de violette and have had no luck. Any pointers would be great, and I also see foresee the issue of the violet infusion eventually browning. So any heads up on how to avoid that would be great.
+
+[5:04] Well, I looked in uh a bunch of recipes online. I looked at Rothman, which is one of the people that actually distribute creme de violette here in the States, and they claim to actually use violet flowers. But when I looked on uh, and I'm sure you can basically, so then I would just take a boatload of violet flowers, macerate them in the highest proof liquor you can get in the state of Ohio. Uh don't use crappy, like uh most of the one fifty ones that they sell on the market are are pretty pretty crappy. If you can find one that's decent, smell it, um, taste it.
+
+[5:37] I mean, uh sorry, not 151, uh Everclear, 95 95 proof. Most of these smell pretty bad. If you can find one that's decent, I recommend uh buying that. We buy um from a lab supplier, we buy our straight booze, and it's pretty pretty high proof. Uh but the first thing you're gonna need is very high-proof uh liquor.
+
+[5:54] Uh I mean 151 really isn't ideal, that's only like 75, 75 and a half uh you know, percent, which isn't really very good. Um you're gonna want at least like 8590. Um but try to find one that's good flavor, and then just basically pack that full of violet flowers, let it macerate probably for several weeks to a month or so, and then uh decant it off, uh mix it with sugar to taste, and then water it down to whatever percentage you want. The recipe that I found in my uh in in my old source, which is a treasis on the manufacture and distillation of alcoholic liquors by Pierre Duplay, uh uh copyright 1871, which I have a hard copy of, but is available on uh Google Books for free to look at, actually doesn't use violet in their creme de violette. They use oris root.
+
+[6:39] Uh and so orus root is something that apparently uh you know it's it's a flavoring in a lot of liqueurs, but apparently has somewhat of a violet nose, violet, you know, aroma and flavor to it, and was used in the old days uh to make certain creme de viol uh violet if they didn't have the violet flowers lying around. And so these guys basically say take 12 liters of orus root infusion, which I guess you would make the same way that you would make the violet infusion by steeping in the highest proof liquor you can get for a long time. Um then 24 liters of 85% straight uh neutral grain spirits, uh 56 kilograms of sugar, and 26 liters of water, and they actually recommend uh coloring it with cochineal, which is red, and blue food coloring, which they don't specify what to use. Uh, it's probably specified elsewhere in the book. Um, but it's it's interesting that they would uh specify coloring like that because I also found in a 1905 um Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station reference where they they tested five or six different crumbs de violettes and found that they were all adulterated basically with dyes, with um dyes, some of which were not so savory.
+
+[7:43] So uh I would recommend one. First thing you want to get a hold of is some high-proof spirits. Make sure they're food grade, make sure they smell good, they don't have a real a lot of off-tast because otherwise you're gonna be starting with a bad base. Then if you have the iris flowers, and sorry, iris, don't use irisetal poison. If you have the uh violet flowers, just pack a whole bunch of them into the highest proof liquor you can get and let it sit, taste it every once in a while, see how uh whether it gets the color you want, then add just like I say, add sugar to taste and water it down.
+
+[8:11] There's a couple uh books available on homemade liqueurs uh that I have at home. I couldn't find them in time to provide a reference, but I'll see if I can find something else and get back to you next week. Um and then if if not, try to order some oris root and see whether you can get uh an interesting flavor that way. So uh Ryan, I hope that helps and let us know how it works out. Um Mick writes in with an interesting Kahlua pig question.
+
+[8:35] My friend Mel is having a housewarming for her new house. She doesn't have a proper garden yet, which is a shame. If I had a house, I would really want a proper garden. That would be one of the first things. Pizza oven, outside pizza oven, a tandoor buried in the ground, which is similar to the question I'm about to answer, and then a garden.
+
+[8:50] Those will be my first my first orders of business. Um and maybe someday I will have one, who knows? Um and she's letting me dig a pit in her backyard to cook a whole pig, like an Hawaiian uh emu, I think it's pronounced emu. It's a Hawaiian basically hole in the ground oven that's used to cook Kaluapig, Kalua pig being the buried pig that you would have. Delicious, I should say, buried pig that you have at Aluau.
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+[9:10] Not that I've been to Hawaii. Anyone wants to fly us to Hawaii to taste tropical fruits? We are your people. Am I right, Nastasha? Mm-hmm.
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+[9:16] Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Never been to Hawaii.
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+[9:19] My wife was born in Hawaii, has a Hawaiian middle name. Anyway, uh, anyone in Hawaii wants us, we'll be there. Uh, I've heard that you must use igneous rocks because other types might explode at high temperature. That sounds awesome, and it is, Nick. I've tried it.
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+[9:32] Uh that sounds awesome, but probably not a good idea at a crowded party. Also true. I'm planning on using a probe to monitor the internal temperature of the pig while cooking, so food safety shouldn't be an issue. Okay, first of all, um here are my tips. One, it is true that many different types of rocks explode.
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+[9:47] Uh I used to do a bunch of experiments on basically heating rocks to throw them into liquids to heat them up. So uh back in my red hot poker experimentation days, uh, which are basically over now because we have it pretty much settled how to do a red-hot poker, right? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much settled. Uh, but you know, uh, other than just using a red-hot poker, one of the things we were using was hot stones.
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+[10:07] And so we ended up settling on using these Korean basically stones that are that are used as part of the Korean stoneware cookery, the giant gobdles that you make that you know that you make uh bibembop out of, the toll soat, I should say, that you make gobdul bibembop out of. Um and uh these stone bowls are, by the way, are some of the greatest things in the world. Everyone should go to the local Korean supermarket and purchase at least six of these hot stone bowls. Anyway, those things don't explode. Uh, but I've had very bad luck with regular stones, even ones that I thought were igneous.
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+[10:38] Igneous rocks are basically volcanic rocks, the theory being they're heated so high uh when they were made that there's not, first of all, they're not very porous typically, unless it's pumice or something that's been aerated as it sprayed into the air. But they're they're hopefully not porous and don't have any water in them, so they won't explode when they're heated. Now, I have uh the other types of rocks are metamorphic and sedimentary. So sedimentary rocks are laid layered rocks like sandstone and metamorphic are basically then compressed and turn into other kinds of turn into a denser, denser rock. I've had all of these things explode.
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+[11:08] Even an igneous rock, when heated very suddenly, if it has inclusions or anything inside of it, can expand in weird ways and explode. I've had rocks explode in the kitchen and fly completely all around over the kitchen. I did it once at the pastry uh in one of the pastry kitchens at the French culinary and completely freaked out a group of pastry chefs. Uh and you know, plus I had to clean up the rock particles everywhere. But the good news is that you're gonna be heating up those rocks well in advance because it's gonna take hours and hours for this pig to cook.
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+[11:37] So you're gonna be heating these rocks up well, well in advance of the party people being there. So I wouldn't worry about blowing up too much, especially if it heats fairly uh evenly and it's being heated from above, which is probably how it's gonna happen from the side. I wouldn't worry overly much, like it might blow up a little bit, but you know, you know, just don't stand with your eyeballs over a hot rock because it's warming up. And once it's very hot, once it's been hot for an hour or so, I think mainly your risk of explosions are somewhat over at that point. So you're gonna want to align it really, you know, get it nice and hot, and then they cover it with lots of green vegetation, the idea being to cause steam, similar to the way you would use steam in a in a uh sorry, seaweed and a clam bake in uh in New England.
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+[12:15] And but bear in mind, this is all theoretical knowledge, not having done it myself, hands-on. Uh, and then the the last thing obviously is you're gonna want to find some nice leaves to wrap the uh the wrap the pig in. Now, this is something I have done, not in an oven at uh outside, but you know, you wrap, I've wrapped many pork shoulders in uh in leaves to do my own version of uh Kalua Pig at home, and it is delicious. Uh you want to use tea leaves if you can get them, but if you're not in Hawaii, I don't think you are, so you're probably gonna want to use banana leaves, which you can get at any local Asian uh any local Asian market. So I hope this uh helps Nick and I hope you have an excellent pig experience.
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+[12:53] But it should take several hours to cook, and like you said, you're gonna have a temperature probe, so you're not too worried about food safety. I wouldn't worry about that either. It's gonna heat up and it's gonna cook to a very high temperature. You just need to keep enough liquid in there so that it doesn't uh dry out on you. Does that sound like a good advice there?
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+[13:08] Good job. Alright, so let's go to our first commercial break and want you to call in all your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking issues, only come out at nights leader hug retire. Nothing's new seeing the hair before.
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+[14:13] Watching wedding. We should sit with you. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Hot Grease every Monday at 3 30 p.m. Hot Grease strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward-thinking schools of culinary thought to the minds and kitchens of everyday folk.
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+[14:37] Each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum of food enthusiasts, from internationally renowned culinary masters to moms on a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 3 30 p.m. Hot Grease on the Heritage Radio Network. Why don't we have a name like that? Hot Grease.
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+[14:59] Sounds awesome, right? Hot Grease. I like that a lot. Hot Grease. Alright, back to cooking issues.
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+[15:04] Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Dave Arnold back at you with cooking issues. And I see Nastasha has hauled out the Holland Oats as she threatened. Right?
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+[15:15] Yeah. Did you ever get to go see them in concert? No, I babysat your kids instead. Oh that sounds probably like a better bet. I mean, I think I want to remember Holland Oates as they once were.
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+[15:24] I think in most uh no offense to either Hall or Oates, because they listen not Yeah, avid listeners. But in general, uh, you know, I find that I prefer to remember people not on their comeback tour. What do you think, Nastasha? I would have liked to see. Well, you're gonna go see Elton John, right?
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+[15:42] Yeah. Yeah, alright. Like Elton John, whatever. It's not as no no judgment, no judgment. Alright.
+
+[15:49] Uh Colin Gore writes in with a series of statements and questions, so I'll just go down and we'll take a look at them. Um You mentioned he's talking to me. Uh you mentioned that you occasionally get an oil slick after diluting booze that looshes, like like the aquavite that we make with caraway and fennel. And when we say loose, you know, when you're pouring uh when you when you dilute something that has a lot of uh that's alcoholic that has a lot of dissolved oils in it, you you basically decrease the solubility of those oils as they dilute till they pop out of solution and form a haze, like uzo does. It's called the uzo effect or or you know things that loosh out.
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+[16:21] Is there a good way to stabilize that oil in booze? The oil has a lot of flavor, obviously, so I want to incorporate the slick back into the hooch. I suppose I could hold off on diluting the drink strength until right before serving, but I prefer to get the whole bottle balanced in one go. Well, it's fairly rare that I actually have uh something where the oil will separate out on top. Most of the time, what happens is you'll get an enrichment, it won't actually fully separate, but you'll get an enrichment in the oils in the top part of the bottle, but it'll stay somewhat in you know, in suspension, and then you can just shake the whole bottle and get it to come back together again.
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+[16:52] If you actually have a bottle that it fully separates out and you get the stuff on top and it won't shake back into a homogenous uh suspension, it's not really a solution anymore, but a suspension, then I recommend uh I mean you could go with an emulsifier, like a gum arabic or something like this, but the problem with that is uh is that you know it's gonna change the body of the drink somewhat. But gum arabic will help to emulsify those oils somewhat and keep them in. And luckily, gum arabic doesn't add that much viscosity to your booze. Uh you could then the next step up from that would be to use something that's a mixture of gum arabic with another stabilizer like xanthan gum. I'd recommend T I C gum saladizer 210S, which sounds gross, but it's basically just Xanthan and um and gum arabic, but it's gonna definitely affect the um texture of the drink, which is why I'd stay away from it unless you absolutely needed it.
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+[17:39] That's the product that we use to do our butter syrups and our pecan syrups, and you know, all of our sort of emulsified um all of our emulsified oil syrups that we put into drinks, which are which are delicious. Um anyway, that's my thoughts on that. Secondly, he asks, how far do you typically reduce your rotovaped port syrup? I'm running a simple vac still rig with a stir bar, magnetic stir bar, I'm assuming. And it's tough to estimate the vinyl uh final viscosity of the scissor up, and I appreciate the use of sip it sit simple cesser up.
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+[18:08] Anyway, uh for all you 666 fans out there. Uh we all have eaten so much shrimp that we get iodine poisoning. Uh while it's warm and being agitated. Lastly, uh last time I simply vaced it till it would give uh much it wouldn't give it much more H2O without a fight, and ended up with something the consistency of more meat. It was great, but I have a hunch you use something less viscous in the three cheese course.
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+[18:25] He's talking about a course where we take three different dessert wines, we break them into a syrup and a brandy in the rotovap, throw away the water water in the middle, and serve these delicious syrups with the cheeses. Yeah, I take them down to the consistency approximately of maple syrup, and it is very hard to uh deal, especially if you're not in a rotovap. When you're dealing with a roto vap, you can stop the spinning and you can watch how it falls down and you get used to judging when it uh when the reduction is done uh based on hot, you can kind of get a feeling for what it's gonna be like when it cools off. It's just by experience though. Um you know, when I do strawberry, I take it down to uh, you know, I I can take it I can get the bricks fairly high, like in the in the in the 50s or 60s even I can get the bricks up to.
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+[19:08] Um but the problem when you take port especially down too low, it starts tasting a little uh weird and tannic sometimes when it gets too too reduced. So I like to take it just to the edge. I also often will break the system open and just taste it a little bit and then and then put it, put it back together again and continue running it. So I I cheat just like everyone else, but uh it's experience like anything else, and obviously distillation and reduction under vacuum is a fine art that I wish more and more people would would learn. And speaking of TIC gums, he uh Colin writes, thanks for helping to hook you uh him up with TIC Gums.
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+[19:42] Someone at TIC heard him ask for information on the show and uh got in touch with him, and now that the head of uh of TIC Gums, Dr. Marnito, is going to the University of Maryland to talk about the structural properties uh of gum polymers. Um and and Colin and uh Dr. Nito are holding an event uh this Friday uh at 1 p.m. That's uh March 11th, hosted by the University of Maryland's material science department.
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+[20:06] And any listeners, apparently, you've you have garnered an invitation, listeners in the Maryland area, to go to room 2108 in the chemical nuclear engineering building. Uh if you're anywhere uh near uh UMD's uh campus there in the DC, Maryland area, uh stop by. It should be a very interesting um should be a very interesting lecture. Uh another, as for Colin's last thing, he he called in a while ago or wrote in, I forget. Uh he was trying to get some of the astringency out of uh walnut liqueur because the astringency comes obviously from the from the skins in the walnut uh and he's trying to remove the astringency by freezing the finished liquor.
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+[20:41] The idea being that a lot of times if you take like persimmons or quince, it has a lot of tannin in it, tannic principles that are astringent. If you freeze them, those tannins complex basically and become non astringent anymore, and so it kills the tannin. He was hoping to use liquid nitrogen to do that to a bottle of finished booze. Bad news, it doesn't work. He has to go back to the drawing board and try to get, and I'm gonna have to quote this one.
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+[21:03] If listeners or or friends of ours will know that Harold McGee has the world's greatest walnuts. We walked into his place one day, and you know, Nastasha and I, because we'll snack on anyone's crap if it's just laying out, right? We start taking these his walnuts off the table, and we're like, Jesus God, this is the best walnut in the world. Of course, McGee has the best damn walnuts in the world. And I we mentioned this on a radio show before, and so uh I will leave Collins with this.
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+[21:28] He says, uh I gotta find I gotta find his his exact quotes. He says, he's gonna try again if he can get a hold of McGee's sweet, sweet nuts. It's the exact exact quote. Get a hold of McGee's sweet, sweet nuts. And wouldn't we all like to, right?
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+[21:44] No. Uh love it. Anyway, okay. Uh thanks for writing in. And Colin, uh, tell us any of your any of your adventures and tell us how the uh TIC Gums lecture goes.
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+[21:54] Uh Seth writes in with an egg tempering question. Hi, I've got a question for the cooking issue show. My question is about tempering eggs when making custard and gelato and etc. Is it really necessary? Basically, I've learned for years to make custard uh by heating the milk and then slowly incorporated the heated milk into egg yolks bit by bit, slowly raising the temperature so they cook but don't coagulate.
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+[22:14] I question this because a friend of mine recently made an alfredo sauce, and he simply wicked whisked the egg yolts into the cream beforehand while it was still cold, and then slowly raised the temperature of the complete mixture. He said that this way, uh this is the way his mother always made it, and it never coagulates and it always comes out smooth and delicious. Next time I made gelato at home, I tried it that way, and everything turned out fine. I heated over a double boiler to be extra safe. So did I get lucky both times, or is there any reason to do this whole temperature uh tempering thing in the first place?
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+[22:38] I'm becoming convinced that it's an unnecessary, time-consuming step. Alright. Seth, here's the dealy. I don't think there's any technical reason to heat the milk beforehand and pour it into the egg yolks except this. You want to heat, like a lot of times we're dealing with large batches, right?
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+[22:54] And so you have a lot of milk that you're gonna be putting into your egg yolks. So the idea is to get the milk hot first, right? So you can heat the milk up fairly quickly. You don't have to sit there, you know, tending it and worrying the whole time, right? Then you can temper it into your egg yolks and then slowly bring it up the last couple of degrees to get it cooked.
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+[23:10] So I think in actuality, when you're doing a large batch, the tempering is really a time-saving procedure and not a time-wasting procedure. If you're doing a smaller batch and you're gonna have to take it up s and you're gonna take it up slowly and you can watch the whole thing and keep it stirring as you go, I don't think there's any need to heat the milk first and then temper it into the egg yolks. I think it's it's just a matter of convenience. If you're starting with a completely cold mixture, stirring it together, making sure it's completely mixed, and then slowly heating it, you're not gonna have any any problems. I mean, but I think uh and so I think for smaller batches, things like an Alfredo that you can basically hold or like a like if you're making like something very small, uh then it's probably easier to do it like you say, start from cold and heat up.
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+[23:50] But I think when you get to bigger and bigger batches, you're gonna find it's easier to go the other way. To heat the big batch of milk quickly up to temperature and then to temper it into your egg yolks. I hope that makes hope that makes uh sense. I think I think that's the case. Someone's gonna someone's gonna write in who's more of an expert on this, and say, No, I get that all the time, by the way.
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+[24:10] You you might not know it because those guys tend not to call the uh call the show. They end up like writing me later and saying that kind of thing over the email. I guess that's my just interpretation of what they say then, since I'm just reading it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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+[24:21] Anyway. Joshua calls in with a right saying with a yogurt question. I have made yogurt five times with varying results. My procedure is scalding the milk and letting it cool to around body temperature. I then stir in a couple tablespoonsfuls uh of Greek yogurt and place the whole pot in the oven with only the interior light uh pilot light.
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+[24:38] Light or pilot light, you think? Pilot light. Pilot light? Pilot light. Providing heat.
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+[24:43] After leaving the pot, sit overnight. I place it in the fridge and strain it uh and uh strain it until it's a little uh less thick than uh leven, which is Greek strained yogurt. Uh and the first two times were quite successful with whole milk, but uh since I haven't been able to uh recreate the results with reduced fat. Probably because reduced fat milk doesn't taste as good as whole milk. Um my question is how does the fat percentage of the milk affect the final yield and thickness of the yogurt?
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+[25:05] And also, do I really need to scald the milk if it's pasteurized? Can I just combine the milk and yogurt and let it sit on the countertop for a day or so? I'm not big on checking temperatures. What's the easiest way to make authentic uh thick yogurt uh labness style? Okay, Joshua, here are my feelings on this.
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+[25:20] Um I don't frankly know how the texture is gonna be affected, I mean how the thickness of it's gonna be affected by the fat content, but I guarantee you that the whole milk is gonna taste a whole hell of a lot better than the reduced fat stuff. Especially because reduced fat milk is such crud anyway. I mean, I really like if uh it makes me so angry like when I see people they use like the 2% and the 1%. I mean, what are you really saving? You know, like just don't eat as much of this stuff and just use milk that tastes better for for goodness sakes.
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+[25:50] Go back to using the whole milk. What do you think, Nastasha? I completely agree. I know it. You know, like you know, you know, seriously.
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+[25:56] Instead of having 18 quarts of like 1% or skim, which is vile, disgusting puke, instead of having that in your coffee, just add a little bit less of something delicious and satisfying, like whole milk. And good whole milk at that, if you can get it. Stuff that tastes delicious. Anyway. Uh okay, so that's my feeling on the whole milk.
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+[26:14] Now, on the pasteurization. Pasteurized milk has a lot of the uh bacteria wiped out, but uh uh there's always bacteria left in it, which is why, you know, they it just arrives when you're when you when you you know open it and close it, bacteria gets in it. Which is I think why the recipes always recommend heating it uh up to like 180 and then letting it cool down. Uh it also helps because now you're warming it and as it cools down, uh, you know, it's it's ripe for accepting uh the cultures that you're gonna put in the yogurt. Um there's also, and I don't know whether this is affecting it, but it goes back to a question we had before, when you pasteurize milk, you're changing the characteristics of the milk, right?
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+[26:51] So you're you're basically pre-agglomerating some of the whey proteins and you're also stopping some of the uh curdling ability that you get on rennet casein from um when you're making cheese. So it might also be, but I I have I didn't have time to research, I apologize, Joshua, but it might also be that the heating of the milk um helps the texture of the yogurt uh aside from any properties of killing bacteria. But I don't know. Uh uh next time I speak to McGee or someone maybe also write in and tell me this. I looked in uh uh you know in McGee's books, and he indeed, even in pasteurized milk, recommends heating it up to 180.
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+[27:24] So there might be something there uh from a technical standpoint affecting the milk with the heating. Uh as for then letting it cooling, you want to let it cool down to about 115, give or take, stir in the um, stir in the uh the culture, the live culture, the yogurt that you already have. And then the temperature isn't really crucial, right? Except for the taste is going to change depending on the temperature at which the yogurt's inoculated. And you know, it could be done even in a couple of hours, depending on how much you stir in and how active the cultures are that go into it.
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+[27:54] But I think you are gonna get varying results depending on the temperature that you uh that you use. Now, if you find some stable place in uh in your kitchen, like the oven with the with uh just a pilot on, although my oven's too hot uh for that, or a particular place in the kitchen, and you do it once there, right? Then it should be the same every time you do it in that location, as long as that location stays the same. So you as long as you keep all of your variables the same from time to time, even if you don't have a lot of control, right, uh, or you don't measure a lot of temperatures, you should be able to get very fairly consistent results. But it's never gonna be as thick as you want it, in real Greek style, unless after it's made, you put the yogurt over uh, you know, over a cheesecloth or over a piece of muslin, then let it strain in a colander uh overnight in the fridge to let it the extra way drain out.
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+[28:44] That's the real key to making a really nice thick uh Greek yogurt. But I hope uh Joshua, I hope that helps. Uh and with that, we will go to our second commercial break. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
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+[29:05] What I want, you got the hard to handle. The candle feels what I got full stop, a thought scream to scatter. And you pull them all together, and I have a candle display. Oh yeah, well by you. Well, well, well you make a mother to who On a night but bad we become a screamer when the men's wind scream laugh at it.
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+[30:01] Oh yes. This is uh Cooking Issues coming to me with the Hollow Notes. Nastasha, I have to say that uh much as I was making fun of the Hollow Notes earlier, I definitely appreciate that one. I really do. I appreciate that.
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+[30:14] But really making my dreams coming true. Making my dreams coming true every day here on Cooking Issues. Uh you still have about 15 minutes to call your questions in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. You know what, you guys?
+
+[30:27] Another thing, uh, I'm gonna put a uh call out for people to write in with uh guests that they would like to hear appear on the cooking issues. What do you think about that, Nastasha? Within reason, right? Well, I mean, we're not gonna get Barack Obama on if that's what you mean. You know.
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+[30:40] But uh, you know, like look, we have a group of friends that if we get a request, I could pester them. Like I could pester McGee, I could pester uh You're supposed to have Tony. Yeah, Tony Canigliaro, and you know, any any one of like our known, our known friends and and associates in the cooking world, Wiley, you know, anyone. Request them and we'll see whether we can uh whether we can pester them with it with a live request to or you know, the request to come in to get to get them on. Uh but you know don't ask me for Barack Obama, you know, we can't we can't get that, right?
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+[31:10] Okay. Um Joseph writes in and he says, Dave, I've been researching various methods of crystallizing flower petals so that I can use them to make a syrup, which will then be made into a caramel. Why would you crystallize the flower petals to make a syrup with them? Hmm. Anyway.
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+[31:24] The question I have is that some formulas say use egg whites, and others say use a combination of egg whites and gum arabic. And uh Joseph writes in with a fun note that gum arabic was used in the mummification process. And I I too appreciate mummies. Nastasha's rolling her eyes because she's sick of hearing me talk about mummies. But I love a mummy and any kind of a mummy story.
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+[31:41] And I was uh I was wondering why, uh I was wondering why they would use these two things and is there a difference. In addition, what added benefit does the gum arabic provide besides increasing the viscosity of the egg white solution, and why would it be called crystallization when there's technically no crystals being formed? Well, I think the procedure you're talking about is either dipping uh a flower petal in egg white or gum arabic and then um basically brushing it with uh super fine uh sugar to uh and then letting it dry out. So assuming we're talking about the same thing, there's they're basically two different um two different things. Gum arabic is obviously a hydrocolloid, it's a it's a tree exudate, and it's one of the very few hydrocolloids that instead of being a uh basically a linear chain with very short branches, is a highly branched molecule.
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+[32:24] So they look like big ping pong balls, like a millipectin almost. They're like big. But what that means is is that it's extremely soluble. You can have very high percentage of gum arabic uh syrups, right? So if you look at something like gum syrup, old school gum syrup is basically a simple syrup with a lot of gum arabic added.
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+[32:42] So the the re the one of the great things it's used for is this adhesive um or uh or coating because you can have something that's still fairly liquid, right, but has a high percentage of solids in it, and then when it dries out, it dries uh to you know a clear, crystalline, uh not clear crystal, but a clear, like you know, hard or you know, glue thing, dries back to gum arabic fairly quickly. So, uh if you use a lot of gum arabic, uh, you know, it can it can do that. And a lot of the recipes I looked at use only gum arabic to do it. I don't know why you would use egg whites and gum arabic together. I have to do more research, frankly, I didn't get a chance to to look at it very closely.
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+[33:18] But uh I would guess that if you are using a lot of gum arabic and had it sitting around, that you would just have that syrup and you could um and you could just go and it wouldn't go bad kind of because you'd have a very high solids in it, and you probably wouldn't get a lot of bacterial growth in it because it would have you know such a high solids uh content, and it'd probably be easier to keep around than eggs. It's also probably more sanitary than eggs. In the house, I'd probably just use egg whites because it's so fast, and in general, once it's dried out, I'm not so worried about contamination. Um and I don't know why they call it that if there's no actual crystals uh crystals being formed, but the when I've done it, you are brushing it with crystal, so the flour itself ends up being crystallized, even if you don't actually form your own crystals. Umstasha, you said we had another question come in.
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+[34:01] Okay. Uh this comes in from red. And said you answered my question about the red staining of chicken thighs due to pulling a hard vacuum on them. Lowering the vacuum has been a complete success. Thank you.
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+[34:11] But who heck is from red. Interesting. Uh I have uh I've been now switched to bone-in chicken breasts uh from boneless, and I don't know why, but I have. The thing I noticed after cooking for three hours at 60 C, depending on the thickness, is after they sit in the fridge, they tend to weep blood. Do I need to cook longer?
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+[34:27] Is this part of the staining from the bones? Um not sure. 60 C is uh low is low for that uh for chicken breasts. I mean, they're cooked, but most uh people are gonna want them up around 64, 63, 64. Um it's still gonna retain it, might not be pink at 60, but it's still gonna retain a lot of those juices, and they probably will weep, especially out of the bones.
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+[34:50] I mean, even at three hours, I think you're gonna be better uh for 64 degrees for like an hour uh uh rather than sixty for three, using the extra hours to the two hours to try and get the color into it at that low temperature. I would switch up to to sixty-four for uh sixty-three or sixty-four for an hour, but you're gonna have a really tough time with the with the bone um and and the stuff coming out in a vacuum, even in a lower vacuum. I don't know. Please speak to whoever it is and tell them that you would really like to take the bone out of it because I really have a there's just a lot of problems with uh putting chicken in in the bone uh in the vacuum. You could try to switch to a Ziploc situation where there's no vacuum at all and that might help it, but I'm not sure.
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+[35:34] But please give some give some of those things a try and then um you know write back or call back and tell us how it worked. We'll try to do some more troubleshooting right? Yes. Because chicken's a problem. Right?
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+[35:45] Chicken's a problem in the bag. First of all the the more vacuum you suck on a chicken aside from the fact that it it it sucks the um but bones are hollow. Chicken bones are hollow and they're filled with with red red crap. And when you vacuum it the red crap comes out and then uh you know you can't really get rid of it unless you cook it to a really really high temperature like in the 80s, 80s somewhere, 70s or 70s or 80s. So I tend not to like the and also I think the vacuum affects the texture of the chicken.
+
+[36:08] So as is as much as you can I I think you should suck a very mild vacuum if you suck a vacuum at all on a piece of chicken. Alright now uh one last thing Colin ribbed us on by the way that I forgot to mention is uh the contractual post. I'll have you know that I I'm a day person, right? So I said that a week ago and in fact the post is already up in draft form. I'm adding the pictures it'll be up by end of day today.
+
+[36:32] It is a 4,000 word mega mega post mega post on um on nickalization. So keep a lookout for that. Wait we got a call and I'll take that real quick. Hello? Caller on the air hi Dave.
+
+[36:46] Howdy. Um in a Linea and a couple other cookbooks I've seen, they talk about uh blanching garlic and milk a couple times. Does that take away the bite? Huh. Well, you know, it's funny you should say that because when I cook milk in the pressure cooker, sorry, milk, duh.
+
+[36:59] When I cook garlic in the pressure cooker, I also cook it in milk, and I don't know why. How about that? Um I don't know. But I have the book on garlic and alliums. So um I'll look I'll look it up.
+
+[37:17] I I uh it's like uh it's also I blanch horseradish in milk, and I don't know why, uh, as opposed to water, right? I mean, don't we we all kind of do that. We're trained to do that, but I don't it's kind of natural for me to do it, but uh I really don't know why, if there's any sort of chemical chemical reason. I mean, the stuff that gives garlic its bite are groups of uh sulfur compounds and th you know, thiols and things like that. Um and I wonder whether there's something in milk that tames those.
+
+[37:45] This this sounds like uh this sounds like an area for for further further research. Um I mean when I you can cook garlic, obviously in a pressure cooker, and when you do it, you blast the you blast the pungency away even without milk. Um but there's a host of things that we blanch in milk and no one really says why. I'm trying to think. I'm thinking in my head, the silence is me thinking in my head.
+
+[38:11] Can you think of any reason? Uh off the top of my head, no, I cannot. Alright, well, this is uh like the like the yeast question. I mean, even though this is something we do, this is obviously needs some further uh investigation. So what I think I'll do is uh next time I pester McGee, I'll try put it basically what I do is I call McGee, I don't know, what once every two weeks or so, and then I sit there and I just pepper him with absurd questions for like 45 minutes, and then he maybe says hello.
+
+[38:41] And then the conversation's over. Nastasha thinks I'm a low quality human being for the way I pepper him with questions. But I'm gonna add this to my list, and plus I'll do some research and I'll go read the. I think the name of the author of the garlic book is Block, I think is the guy's name. And uh he it's actually a really interesting book, but I I read it kind of very quickly.
+
+[38:58] It's got a it's got a forew by a Nobel laureate. Pretty cool book on garlic. But um I'll definitely look that up and I'll try and think about it. And and I'll I'm gonna try and think about the problem of milk blanching in general. Because I think it is interesting, because it's quite expensive, really, when you think about it, to blanch everything in milk.
+
+[39:14] Right, Steve? Yeah, yeah. So it is expensive. So we'll look into it and we'll and we'll we'll definitely talk about that next week. Alrighty?
+
+[39:21] Great. Hey, you gonna have him on your show again? Uh who, McGee? Yeah. All right, is this a request?
+
+[39:26] Yes. Uh we'll we'll uh we'll call him in and have him on maybe we'll try to get him for next week. Well, actually, actually, you know what? I'm calling I'm calling in next week because I'm gonna be in Vancouver at Tales of the Cocktail. Maybe the week after that I'll try to get I'll try to get McGee.
+
+[39:38] Great. Alrighty, cool. Thanks a lot for the question. Thank you. Alright, so back to the Nickstabilization Mega Post.
+
+[39:46] So the um it one section of it that I'll talk about now on on the air, is uh I pretty badly burnt my tongue last stupidly. Uh I pretty badly burnt my tongue last week on what day of the week was that? Friday. Thursday? Thursday.
+
+[40:04] Thursday. It was Thursday. Wednesday. Wednesday, whatever, last week. I burnt my tongue with Lie.
+
+[40:09] So here's how it happened. We use lie in cooking uh for a lot of things, for pretzels. We use it in the Harold McGee class for our eggs. I'm I have a use for it in the Nyx to Mile post that you're gonna read uh hopefully if you're a reader of the blog, which I hope you are. Um and somehow a bunch of lye, sodium hydroxide, got put into a quart container with no label on it.
+
+[40:30] And uh we're moving a lot of stuff around, and someone puts this container in front of my hand, and I'm not uh in front of my face, and it's like, what is it? I'm not used to thinking about something in my kitchen being so dangerous, so I stupidly put my finger in it, because I have literally dozens of different quart containers with powders in them sitting around. And most of them are hydrocolloids, uh simple acids like tartaric, citric, and malik, um, you know, uh what I desire to say hydrocolloids, sugar, salt, things like that. And so you can just go boom and taste it and it's done. So I go, boop, taste it, lie.
+
+[41:06] Uh it's the most violent reaction I've ever had on my tongue. It's the equivalent of eating a handful of those Seshouan buttons. Um, and I instantly knew something was horribly, horribly wrong. And so I spat out, ran into the kitchen, and started washing my mouth out. You know, thankfully I didn't swallow it, or I'd be in really, really, really, really big trouble.
+
+[41:28] Start washing my mouth out uh for you know several minutes, look in the mirror, my tongue is bleeding, the roof of my mouth is bleeding, it's eaten away all of the taste buds on one half of my tongue. And uh so I'm like, well, I better go to the ER. So I go to the ER and had to you know stay there for hours while they made sure that I didn't ingest any and I have to take steroids and all this other stuff, but uh the tongue heals miraculously, and uh my taste is is mostly back, uh although there's still a swath where I have my taste buds burned away, but it's it's coming back. Um I'm here to tell you lye is dangerous. I had it in my house, right?
+
+[42:05] And so I I threw it all away because God forbid my kids should get a hold of it. So it's reasonable to cook with lye. It's like you know, a good ingredient for for what it's for, but just be extremely careful. If you have anything like that, uh and you have kids around, it doesn't take much for them to really, really, really, really damage themselves. I, you know, I've known for years how dangerous it is, and I've always been paranoid about it getting on my hands, but I never knew how fast the damage happens uh, you know, than when it happened to me last week.
+
+[42:36] So just be extremely careful when you have it around. Make sure that everyone who cooks with it in your kitchen is extremely careful about it, and make sure that there's no possible way on God's earth that any child could ever, ever get their hands on it, or you're gonna be in big, big trouble, right? So, to round out cooking issues for this week, I'm gonna say uh a little story and uh and a hope and a help. I need a help from our listeners for for more research. So I've been researching a lot about corn for various reasons, mostly because I'm a dork, and uh I came across uh something that basically said there was a lot of corn research and genetic corn research that was brought about by the atomic nuclear testing at the bikini A toll in the 40s after World War II, because what they did was they took a uh whole bunch of corn and they exposed it to an atomic blast, several atomic blasts, and then they uh would plant it to see whether the seeds, presumably to see whether the seeds germinated or not.
+
+[43:29] But they noticed that there was a good bit of mutation in the uh in the in the corn that that that was new, right? And so then it be then the Atomic Energy Commission started sponsoring a lot of research on corn and corn cultivars and corn mutations. So if you look at a lot of the research on corn in the in the 40s and 50s, it's. It's sponsored by the Atomic Energy Commission. And they would actually create radiation sources with you know various forms of radioactive cobalt and whatnot to purposely irradiate seeds to try and get genetic mutation.
+
+[43:56] So it caused this explosion in um in genetic research and different kinds of corn uh mutations. Now, one of the main corn mutations that was discovered, discovered in 1949, I believe, was uh a gene called Shrunken2. And shrunken two is the precursor to all super sweet corn that we eat today. And before that, corn was relatively sweet or not, but not the super sweet that we have today. So there's a researcher who just happened to be chewing on a bunch of mutant corn while he was sorting through it, and noticed that this one shriveled uh dried piece of corn was super sweet.
+
+[44:34] Isolated that gene, re-grew it, and that is the genesis of all the super sweet corn today. So here's what I need to find out. And I've got a bunch of calls in. I want to find out the exact chain that leads from the atomic testing in bikini atoll to super sweet corn, because there's some sort of link there, right? You know, whether, and I'm hoping that all super sweet corn is a result of um of irradiation by uh cobalt as a result of the initial experiments done with the atomic testing.
+
+[45:04] Because I just love the idea of nuclear sweet corn, don't you? And this has been cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[45:36] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my hair ball twisted. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Foods USA. In late March, Dan, Andrea Patrick and the Heritage team are traveling to the coldest reaches of the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont to help the Cantor family tap sugar maple trees.
+
+[46:03] Then the maple sap will flow down to the sugar house where it is boiled gently over a wood fire, just as it has been for generations. Just a few days later, this Great A amber syrup will be poured into the beautiful glass jugs and sent to you for pancakes, waffles, desserts, glazing hams, or just drinking by the spoonful. There's only a limited supply, so order today. Each one-liter bottle is $45, including delivery. Delivery will be at the end of March, and we will notify you of the exact shipping date.
+
+[46:33] Each shipment will include a CD explaining the whole process. You can also follow us on YouTube while we work and bottle. In the meantime, you can head over to the Heritage Radio Network archives and listen to Linda Palacio talk about maple syrup on her show A Taste of the Past, episode 12. For more information, visit www.heritagefoods USA.com. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[46:58] Join Wine and Presarios Erin Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco as they dish out on the latest industry news with winemakers and tastemakers on Heritage Radio Network's revamped wine show, Unfiltered. Erin Fitzpatrick, one of the first hosts on HRN with her program at the root of it, amps up the volume and unfiltered content with co-host Brian DeMarco in this 2011 Redux. True to the original format, Aaron and Brian will keep you abreast of current happenings and break down the news and global events, distilling complex into anecdotal stories that inspire. From media and political events to hailstorms in Argentina, no topic is out of bounds. Tune in every week to hear them chat up the industry's biggest personalities and host on air tastings with visiting ventors and the country's hottest smoliers.
+
+[47:42] Whether you're an expert or an enthusiast, Unfiltered demystifies wine and lets you know what it really takes to get a bottle from the vineyard to your neighborhood wine shop. Unfiltered broadcasts live every Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. The following is a public service announcement from the Museum of Food and Drink. Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a nine-course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto, Sunday, March 27th.
+
+[48:13] Their intent to kick start the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere. How will a cutting edge chef handle the Paleolithic or a dish only using pre-Columbian ingredients? What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome?
+
+[48:32] The chefs include David Chang of Omofuku, Wiley Dufrain of WD50, Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norrin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of Salumaria Rossi, Carlo Moraci of Robert's, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina Tozzi of Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh of Death and Company, Simon Ford of Perno Ricard, Damon Bolti of Prime Meats, and Evan Clem of BR Guest Restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the Museum of Food and Drink. Tickets are very limited and two hundred and fifty dollars per person. To purchase tickets, please visit Mofad.eventbright.com.
+
+[49:13] That's M-O-F-A-D.eventbright.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D.E-V-E-N-T-V-R-I-T-E dot com. Sponsored by Fernau Ricard, Heritage Foods USA, Pat LaFreda Meats, Barter House Wines, Del Posto Restaurant.
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+[0:10] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. We're recording on a Monday, but we're going to be broadcasting on Tuesday. So if you're listening to it now, you're probably not listening to it live. But uh if you happen to have read our blog post, you can call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:28] This is the last cooking issues before the big museum fundraiser event. It's going on uh at Del Posto next weekend on Sunday. You can still go and buy your tickets at Mofad M O F A D. That's the Museum of Food and Drink. Mofad.eventbright B-R-I-T-E uh dot com.
+
+[0:46] That's uh Mofad uh uh Mofad.eventbright.com. Anyway, uh we are privileged today to have a special call in guest, Harold McGee is going to be the the ultimate master blaster of the science of deliciousness, is going to be joining us via phone. Unfortunately, we're working uh very hard on the museum uh event, and so Nastasha cannot be with us today in the studio because in fact she is delivering produce to WD50 because Wiley Dufrain is gonna be working on the dish today for uh you know, doing some preparatory work today for his dish. So no Nastasha, but we do have Harold. Harold, are you there?
+
+[1:22] I am Dave. Good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm doing okay.
+
+[1:26] How's the West Coast treating you? Uh it's it's okay. This last week has been really rainy and cold. Uh today it uh it was sunny to begin with, but the sun has disappeared, so it looks like it it may be another grim week. Uh I'd love it then.
+
+[1:41] You know, I hate the sunshine. Right. Well, but you know, 50 degrees, you want a little uh a few rays. Yeah, all right, all right. Yes.
+
+[1:49] If it's gonna be fifty out, might as well be a little bit uh a little bit sunny. Okay. So you want to start uh hitting these questions? We have a bunch of email questions in. Sure.
+
+[1:57] Uh before before we start, someone uh wrote in one of the questions. Uh they want to know the secret of Thai iced tea. Uh the mysterious spices in Thai iced tea. And I have to say I don't know 'cause I'm not a uh I don't really I don't drink it. Um do you drink it?
+
+[2:15] I'm afraid I ha uh I haven't for a long time. I did a couple times years ago, and uh uh yeah, I just can't pull back the uh the flavors. Yeah. And so I mean I think that, you know, this is the kind of uh question uh Aaron wrote in with it. I think this is the kind of question um you know, I would hate to give just a researched answer off of the web of of what belongs in it because I don't have the actual taste memory in my head to know whether it's right or not.
+
+[2:44] It's not something I've worked on because it's not something that i i it's just not something that I've you know focused on ever. But you know, I'm sure that we can find the answer. I mean if you uh you know, if you see PIM when you're out there or something like that, we can probably get the answer of what the what the stuff is, but I would hate to I would hate to guess on something like that. Yeah, yeah. No, same here.
+
+[3:06] All right, Aaron. So I apologize, but I will not be able to answer that question this week because uh I just don't want to give uh an answer that's BS. I'd rather not give a B I'd rather give no answer than a BS answer, right? Yeah, and also I mean uh d uh for Aaron to do his own research, uh shape him would be a good place to start. Uh David Thompson's book on Thai cooking is uh seems to be the the standard.
+
+[3:33] So there are a couple of, you know, authorities you can start with and then kind of move on from there. Yeah, I'm sure Thompson has a recipe for it in the book. I have it at home. I just haven't been home to to look at it to get the uh to get the the recipe out of it. But he his book is, you know, as far as I can tell, quite well respected.
+
+[3:50] I know that he's done all of his research on the on kind of the old on the old manuscript, so he has a a thorough knowledge of uh current Thai cooking and historical Thai cooking. So in fact I think he has uh a new book uh this last year on uh street cooking, street tie, uh, which might be the uh an even better place to look. Yeah. And that's where we'd probably go anyway if we were just gonna give you it wouldn't be our answer, it would be his answer anyway. So Yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[4:18] Or or check out Pim's uh Pim's uh site. Now I'm gonna knock out uh one question right away, and uh Harold, you can chime in because you've had some of this stuff. But uh uh Rick writes in and says that his roommate Zach's advisor just purchased a new uh rotary evaporator for the lab and has agreed to let them use it for a few days for food purposes, and they want to take maximum advantage of uh of everything that they can do in it, and uh you know they want to build their own, but they they're not ready for it quite yet. And so they want to know what we should do. Like uh he just wants to distill basically as much as possible.
+
+[4:52] Um he wants to get the flavors of phalernum uh into it, maybe. He wants to do um Martell Cordon Blue is ripe or something. I've I've actually wrote a VAT and Harold, you've had it. Uh we did a uh event with uh Mandy Aftel where we wrote a Vap Martell with frankincense. I don't know whether you like frankincense, but Martel does rotovap quite well.
+
+[5:10] Uh he wants to do something with maybe uh absinthe, any of these things, oak, dirt, grass, cigars, uh, peppers, like Wahillo Ancho and stuff like that. What are the rotovap stuff do you like, uh, Harold? Uh pretty much everything you've done. Thanks. I I love what you do with habaneros, for example.
+
+[5:29] That's that's an amazing experience to be able to separate the the heat from the aroma. Right. Yeah, I mean I've I've done dried and and uh have you ever had any of the dried pepper? I prefer the fresh pepper ones because I like the floral note that they have more. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:47] Um and then the I mean the the dishes that I've had uh that have really stuck in my my head, in fact the very first one is probably still the the one I remember best, uh, is the um the Roka family did a um an oyster in a jelly that was flavored with uh earth. Uh so um uh one of the ideas on the list here was uh along with oak and grass and cigars was dirt. And dirt works, although uh you and I had it, I think, um, when um uh the Rokas were visiting the FCI and it wasn't the same. Well they didn't give it to me. He wouldn't give he said he was gonna give it to me and he didn't, probably because it wasn't the same, maybe.
+
+[6:35] Uh yeah, yeah. So uh in fact I I had it and it wasn't as good. And I I think with something uh a flavoring that you uh rotovap that isn't a standard food ingredient. Uh it's more of an environmental uh aroma. Uh I think you have to just nail the concentration just right, otherwise it tastes like dirt instead of like the forest.
+
+[6:59] Well, and also they were using a water based distillate, and the water based isulates tend not to be fixed very well. So if they're opening and closing the bottle and it has to be transported, I mean, I don't know uh what kind of freshness problem they have with that just in terms of loss of the volatiles, but I mean it's a huge problem with uh with non-alcoholic rotovapped products is that they just tend to the the aroma is so fugitive they tend to just pfft go, you know? Could that have been it? Was it overly dirty or was it just not not as just unbalanced? What was it the the one?
+
+[7:29] Well, it's a good question. I was I was guessing that it was uh the concentration because it did seem to be just stronger. Um but it could have been stronger because you know the wrong things were were popping out. And um so it it could have been that it was just uh you know, he he had to prepare the distillate and then bring it with him, and uh who knows how many days old it was, and that may have been the problem. Right.
+
+[7:53] Well, okay, if you have a roto vap for just a couple of days, I would uh obviously I would recommend trying something that you could do no other way, and that would be some sort of fresh herb, right? Uh some sort of fresh herb uh that you distill, and I would drink that right away. Make it very, very fresh, very, you know, summery spring like. Uh that's like, you know, the one that we do with the um do with the Thai basil and cilantro and uh the cucumber and the orange, right? Something something like that with those flavors.
+
+[8:20] Because uh you can't recreate that with a normal distillation because the temperature is too high and it's gonna alter the flavor of the herb. So I would definitely do that. I would then do um something like uh uh a pepper. I would choose a fresh one that's floral, kind of red, so you can get the floral notes so you can see what it's like that the spice doesn't go through. I would then do horseradish because horseradish makes an intensely, intensely pungent because the the the pungent principle of horseradish does distill.
+
+[8:46] And that's gonna last you a long time. So you'll have that for uh uh you know, a good long time. Then just start doing wacky things like de-oke some liquors, um, you know, try some of the culinary preps like uh dirt or earth. Just remember you're gonna have to uh some of the things that are more aromatic, like horseradish or um or habaneros or whatever you do, you're gonna have to totally break down and clean all the grease out of the rotovap joints uh before you run the next batch because you'll get contaminated. There's also if you've never run one, unless your roommate knows how to run it really well, or the or the the you know the uh professor knows how to run it really well, there is a learning curve associated with it.
+
+[9:22] Don't set it to the automatic distillation, sit there and and actually constantly force the distillation so that you're getting uh the fastest rate possible. Set your chiller as low as it can possibly go. For alcohol, you're gonna want to set it around minus twenty Celsius. We now use a cold finger distillation, distill with uh liquid nitrogen, and we can do water-based distillations that way. But um have some fun with it.
+
+[9:42] Tell us how it worked out. Right? That's good advice, right, Harold? Yeah, yeah. It's always fun.
+
+[9:48] Good stuff. I've never done a cigar. I don't know. I've done smoky stuff. I've never done a cigar.
+
+[9:55] Anyway, um an unsmoked cigar, you think you means, or like the ashes of cigar? No, it must be unsmoked. I mean, the the fermented leaves, that's the that would be really interesting. Right. Right, but it's not characteristically what you think of as cigar the smoke.
+
+[10:12] It's a different, it's a completely different thing. Well, yeah, it's the cigar box smell rather than the yeah, than the the smoke room, which which I think is a good thing. Right, right. Yeah. All right, here's a question for you, Harold.
+
+[10:25] Uh, does r using reduced fat uh milk lead to a higher way higher whey production in uh when you're making yogurt? Like if you're gonna break it. Well, uh it shouldn't. Um because if you're using reduced fat milk, usually reduced fat milk is um supplemented with uh whey solids which include uh lactoglobulin which is uh a whey protein not the the casein proteins that that curdle but uh whey protein that's soluble but when you when you heat the milk uh which you should do at 180 for 30 minutes before you make the yogurt that protein denatures and helps uh give the yogurt body and and uh water retaining uh ability and so uh a reduced fat milk is gonna have more of that protein and it should in fact uh release less whey rather than more and the heating then is necessary to uh alter the whey proteins that is a necessary step because that was one of the questions before uh yeah in fact if you uh if you just make the the yogurt without the preheating step you'll of course still get uh curdled milk but it's not gonna have the kind of um thick pleasing consistency that you really want there you have it all right and uh then as a separate question what makes uh a marinate effective obvious factors are uh time but uh what about uh oils ratios of oils, acids or other liquids or the consistency of the herbs and other aromatics uh Joshua would like to know. What do you think?
+
+[12:06] Well um i uh uh yeah d different ingredients are gonna provide different things uh and uh consistency for example you're gonna get a lot more direct contact with uh the meat that you're marinating if the uh material has been finely comminuted. So if it's uh if it's ground or very, very finely minced and instead of chopped or whole um uh if it's spices then uh you know some of the aromas are gonna get out into the liquid and will get into the into the meat that way. But there's not much that happens beyond the surface unless you're actually gonna leave it in there for days. So that's something to keep in mind. Or if you vacuum bag.
+
+[12:51] Uh yeah yeah or jacquard obviously if you jacard it or inject then you can have this stuff happen very quickly. I mean I've noticed okay so a lot of people they'll do uh a buttermilade which you know chicken is fairly friable along the fibers you can get some penetration and if you vacuum bag it you especially can when you cook it that way I find sometimes it gets like uh acidic brines for me if you're not gonna take the next step and overcook the meat in a traditional way if you're gonna do so vide work on it it just is too mushy to me. You lose too much structure. What do you think? Yeah no I agree.
+
+[13:26] Uh that's that's uh something you see you know if you if you do a a typical wine marinade and overdo it, then what you end up with is the surface layer that you can just scrape off because the the meat has has denatured so much. And you don't want that. So uh uh uh using one of those the methods that you mentioned in order to speed it up if you really want some penetration and otherwise you know put put the flavors in the sauce. Right. I mean I tend to when I marinate I tend to you're right exactly I put acidic flavors and things like that in the sauce with rare exceptions and I put the functional ingredients for the w uh water holding capacity for proteins, salts and sugars and things like that, in the marinade or brine.
+
+[14:12] I mean that's typically what I do. Yeah, yeah, because salts are gonna get into the meat. Uh flavor molecules are much bigger. Salt breaks down into ions. They're they're tiny little particles that can move in and out of the meat pretty easily, but uh flavor molecules are not gonna do the same thing.
+
+[14:30] Right. Caleb has a question about smoking sausage. He purchased some cherry chipotle pork sausage. That's like a cherry chipotle it's got a ring to it there, right? And he's pretty excited about it.
+
+[14:40] With simply smoking the sausage as he would for a brisket or pork ribs, would that be a valid and delicious way to cook it? Well I don't see why not. Do you have any thoughts on that? No, sounds good to me and you know, get some cherry wood. I mean the the trick with the the smoking, right, I mean the the trick with any sort of sausage cookery is that uh when you're cooking off a sausage, uh typically what happens is you overcook the hell out of the sausage and you're relying on the high fat content of the sausage and hopefully the crafts you know the crafts you know person who made it making sure that there's enough fat in there such that it stays uh juicy even when it's overcooked.
+
+[15:15] Right. So if you can, I would try to control the smoking uh such that the sausage itself doesn't get much above one forty uh when you're doing it. And I think then you're gonna have like a really you know fantastic product. When we were cooking a sausage is what we'll typically do is is uh water bath them at one forty, which is sixty in Celsius land, and then uh and then grill them or fry them or pan them to get that nice, you know kind of crusty outside to it. So I think a lot of it is gonna be about the temperature control.
+
+[15:45] Yeah, no, I agree. I think the that's that's one of the the most common sins in the kitchen is overcooking sausages and losing all the I mean all that craftsmanship that that goes into mixing the the fat with the the meat just goes away the moment that you overcook it to the point that all the the juices are squeezed out. Yeah, what's the point, Ryan? Right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:07] Just because it's a sauce tastes good, but right. Yeah, but just because it's a sausage doesn't mean you should mistreat it. You know what I mean? And it's so easy not to mistreat it, especially if you have a circulator on board. You know, you can just it make it makes life so easy.
+
+[16:19] Anyway, uh all right. So we're gonna go to our first commercial break. If anyone should be around listening, and it's remember, we're recording on Monday, not Tuesday. Call in your questions too, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Nothing's new seeing the here before.
+
+[17:16] Watching the wedding. Every Sunday at 4 30 p.m., tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house, a weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired, and despised. Each week, Curtis B. Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture fiends to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms.
+
+[18:00] Again, that's every Sunday at 4 30 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. She's a mad eater. Hello, and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call on your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[18:13] That's 718-497-2128. Curtis Wayne, host of the show, not to be confused with Wayne Curtis, noted rum scholar. Weird, huh? Uh Harold, you uh still with us? Yes, indeed.
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+[18:25] Beautiful, beautiful. All right. Um, so where were we? Uh we had a question. I will read it to you from Colin Gore.
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+[18:33] He uh uh often asks us questions, but this one is specifically for you. Harold, the sweet potato is a delectable amalgam of starch, pectin, sugars, and other components. This I know. This mixed composition of sweet potato guts makes it a very versatile tuber. What I'm fuzzy on is why adding some acid, let's say vinegar, to hot sweet potato puree improves the film forming properties of the puree upon drying.
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+[18:54] Without the vinegar, the film is glassy and brittle, but with the vinegar addition, the final film is essentially a kick-ass uh sweet potato fruit roll up. I saw a recipe for Ovulato, which calls for the addition of some vinegar to the simmering potato starch solution. So I assume that the vinegar modifies interacts with the starch in the sweet potato and other sweet potato components are just along for the ride. What is your hunch on what is being modified? Uh, and uh we'll we'll we'll hit that first.
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+[19:17] By the way, for those of you uh who don't know, uh the Ovulato is that uh I think that's how it's pronounced, I don't know. Those are those potato starch uh sheets that you can wrap things in. You can you can buy them, I think um, I forget where they're made. Are they made in Japan or Spain? I I don't know.
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+[19:31] I don't really use them, but that's what they are. Uh any any thoughts on this, uh Harold? You know, this is uh really interesting. I'm I need to play with this. Uh my guess is that uh he's right that uh it's an effect on the starch.
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+[19:45] You're you're getting uh some limited hydrolysis and that kind of plasticizes the starch so that when you dry it all the way down, you know, you've got some you've got more um uh small sugar uh molecules and small portions, small um pieces of starch that help soften the the film uh so that it can't form as uh as brittle as she does he describes. And uh probably the same thing is going on with the sweet potato. Normally starch uh I'm sorry, acidity um uh makes vegetable matter of various kinds uh harder uh by limiting the degree to which the um cell wall components can be removed. Uh but in this case it's the opposite uh effect. And because he's seen it in in a pure starch uh system, my guess is that he's right that that's what's going on.
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+[20:46] Right, but it seems strange that you would have uh hydrolysis with just a little bit of uh acid, you know. And uh uh conversely though, it's just not like a protein where you're shifting the you know, the isoelectric point by adding a little by shifting the pH a little bit and then radically changing its properties. It seems odd. Maybe he's adding a lot of acid. I don't know.
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+[21:05] What do you think? Yeah, well that's it. I d I don't uh get an idea here uh for how much acid is being added. Uh but you know it doesn't take a whole lot to uh uh to change the hydrolysis rate. You'll get you'll get hydrolysis of starch in in neutral water just from the water itself.
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+[21:26] So it might be that um uh just shifting the pH a little bit uh can can make a significant difference. So it's similar to adding a little bit of acid to a sugar boil when you're boiling it, it's gonna increase the breakdown if the longer you boil it the higher the breakdown. Yeah that's right that's right and yeah that's that's the other thing that's missing here is uh any sense of uh of timing you know how long it takes whether this happens kind of immediately or whether you have to kind of incubate it to let it happen. Right because any breakdown of the starch into shorter train chain uh you know uh sugars and dextrins and things like that is going to plasticize the the sheet somewhat right? Yeah yeah of course so with adding a multodextrin.
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+[22:05] But maybe you know this is easier I guess. Yeah that's true. If you uh if you add small uh small molecules uh as another ingredient then you could get the same effect without without the the acidity and without the flavor of vinegar and that that might be an interesting alternative. And vinegar is also an interesting choice because although that's for instance what I use in my candy boils and it's traditional it's a volatile acid so why you know it would be it's interesting that you would choose a volatile acid maybe as a self-limiting measure. I don't know.
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+[22:38] Mm-hmm. Yeah interesting because uh I'd also have to I I've never done a test of uh boiling vinegar testing the pH before and after and seeing how much of the vinegar the acidity is reduced by the boiling. Uh you know, once you recorrect for the uh liquid loss. Yeah, yeah. I've played around with that with that a little bit, uh not not really systematically, just kind of, you know, uh, with my left hand while I was doing something else, just to just out of curiosity.
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+[23:05] And it seems as though the the pH anyway is relatively constant, you know, as you as you boil it down, boil uh a five percent solution down, which surprised me. Because it should get more acidic, right? You'd think so, but but you as you as you say, you are boiling off um acetic acid as well as water as you boil. So it boil it basically you lost vinegar at almost the same rate as water. Right, right.
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+[23:32] Interesting. I mean I know for a fact that when you spray dry vinegar, you get the taste of vinegar but not the acidity, so you need to augment the acidity with a separate acid. When you're making, let's say, uh vinegar potato chips and you're and you're sprinkling um vinegar uh it powder which is sp spray dried with a multixtrin carrier, when you do that you have to add a uh supplementary acidity to get the acidity back to where you want it. Uh-huh. So I mean it's it's volatile enough.
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+[23:57] And then uh Colin's second question, because we have we have pumped your s your awesome walnuts on the on the show. So he has a question. Is there anywhere on the east coast that a fellow can find walnuts low in tannins and astringency? Is it merely a matter of harvesting walnuts in an immature state uh on uh San Giovanni's Day, as many Nochino recipes call for? I did not know that.
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+[24:18] Uh I don't know what species grow in Italy where those recipes originate. Um and and we have black walnuts locally. I'm interested in finding nearby sweet sweet nuts as yours are likely off limits. I would be delighted if you could enlighten us further on the matter. Alright, let's have the talk on walnuts.
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+[24:34] I don't think there's anything off limits about California walnuts. I think they'd love to sell more of them. Uh the the problem is finding uh a source on the east coast of the good stuff because, you know, that it ranges from good to not so good. And you can tell just by looking at the nuts uh how astringent they're going to be the lighter the seed coat uh the milder they're going to be um uh and of course you want to make sure by looking at them as well that they're fresh because that's going to be the other problem you know if they've been shipped across the country then who knows what kind of shape they're in once they get there. Uh immature walnuts are wonderful but they're nothing like um the walnuts we're talking about here they're they're wonderful crunchy they're not that astringent but boy you have to wear gloves in order to deal with them right stain the heck out of your hands right yeah yeah they they do have that the the fruits do do give you that wonderful kind of aroma uh that's nothing like a a standard you know dried walnut uh aroma but uh yeah it's a a completely different experience and a mess.
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+[25:39] Right well I try well I as a kid I used to play around with that stuff. That stuff does not come out of your hands. It just doesn't because we had a bunch of walnut trees around. But the um okay so at your house we tried the red walnuts which people are are pushing but those weren't the miracle nuts. They were nice they were good the red walnuts maybe you could say something about those but it was these uh very low astringency why don't they just why don't they just ship only that like what like is it more difficult to produce?
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+[26:06] Is it a tree by tree variation the same way it is with acorns? You know some acorns are more bitter than others uh and you just have to know the tree I mean um I don't really know much about walnut propagation. Is walnut clonal? Are these done by graft? Is it done by seed?
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+[26:20] Is it just lucky shots? Like, why isn't everyone and as a separate ancillary question, like why are California almonds so low in oil? Why why? Why do they grow them so low in oil? But in other words, like couldn't could they make all the walnuts this delicious and they just don't?
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+[26:34] I think so. I d I think it's m for the most part a matter of variety. And um uh you know, there's a particular guy I go to at the farmers market out here, who uh has several different batches. He's got red walnuts, he's got uh really light skinned walnuts, and he's got darker ones. Um and they're priced accordingly.
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+[26:56] The red ones are more expensive than the light ones, which are more expensive than the dark ones. And you know, you just you you can take your pick. We like the light we like the light ones best though, right? Yeah, because they have the uh uh just the the nicest flavor, the nicest nutty flavor. Um I think the reason though, uh the the red ones are awfully good.
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+[27:17] The red ones have instead of having tannins in the the the brown uh seed coat, they have um anthocyanins, the same pigments that give color to lots of fruits and vegetables, grapes, things like that. Um they're they're very delicious too, and they're not nearly as tannic as um uh as standard walnuts. Um I think the reason you didn't like them as much is that that batch of red ones wasn't as fresh as my batch of pale ones. Uh so they're just as walnut y. Yeah, yeah.
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+[27:50] No, they're they're delicious. Um all right. Well, I I stand corrected then on the on on the red nuts, but d what's this farmer's name? Do you know? I don't.
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+[27:59] I don't. Um I know it's on his truck, and I'm just not able to to pull it into memory at the moment. He's at the ferry market, the ferry tunnel market? Uh no, he's actually at the Alamanya farmer's market. Right.
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+[28:17] But why can't they why like is you think it's just freshness? It can't be. Like why why do they only why do they even grow the darker skin? Is it just easier? Yeah, I I think it's um and and it may be that it's just a matter of uh you know, farmers covering their bets.
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+[28:33] If they just m all grow the the same variety and there happens to be a problem with that variety, it's the old um you know monoculture problem. Um also I'm I'm just not exactly sure which variety is which here. It may be that this is a new one or it's an old one and it's not as productive. There m there might be all kinds of reasons for the the pr predominance of the darker, more tannic nuts. Right.
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+[28:58] I mean I really don't know much about walnut culture at all. I don't know how long it takes for a tree to come into bearing or I mean I know they bear for a long time, but I don't know kind of what the farm cycle is on a on a walnut tree. What why why are uh why are almonds from California so low in oil? Do they do that on purpose? Uh it's a good question.
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+[29:17] You and I tried to figure that one out. Why are uh uh almonds from California just not more delicious? And uh no offense, California. But they could I mean they're I mean, talk about uh tannic tough thick skins. Um uh they're there's no mistaking a uh California almond.
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+[29:38] Uh and I don't know, it again it may be a matter of uh agronomic yield rather than uh quality. Um I'll I'll look into that. I'll ask some questions. Because I would pay more for more in fact we do. We pay more for European almonds that are higher in oil and more delicious.
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+[29:55] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Aaron writes in from Hull and he says he's going to be curing some bacon next week, and he intends to use uh Michael Rullman's uh charcuterie recipe for it, which is uh four four four hundred and fifty uh grams of salt to two hundred and twenty-five grams of sugar to fifty grams pink salt, pink salt.
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+[30:13] Uh I'm assuming he's using uh the instacure number one, which is uh nitrite, not a nitrate. You want to make sure that you know which pink salt you're dealing with. Uh and he's gonna cook coat the pork belly with some of this mixture and leave it in the fridge or freezer for uh some number of days before roasting it until it reaches an internal temperature of 65, etc. etc. Uh kosher salt is hard to come by where I live.
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+[30:35] Is sea salt like um malden a I think he means malden. It says more than here, but malden's a suitable substitute. Suitable but extremely expensive. Yeah. Um I mean the the the main thing you're gonna want to do uh is uh I mean I don't really think it makes it that much of a difference in the people have uh uh all these uh uh questions about w whether or not certain salts are bad for um for curing.
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+[31:00] It's true that sea salts probably have some sort of extra minerals in them, but I don't know what they add to the brining process. In pickles, it's extremely important not to use uh certain salts because they can discolor the pickle, but I don't know that it's a big deal in in a brine for a bacon. Do you, Harold? Uh I I don't think so. It I know that it is an issue in the curing of fish, white fish like cod, because uh the the calcium and magnesium salts can end up causing the the cod to yellow.
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+[31:28] But with a bacon that's not an issue. Right. Ham guys swear that the type of salt that they use makes a difference. In fact, I'm wearing a Finchfield Farms country ham hat right now. Um they say it makes a a difference, but I don't really know what the basis is.
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+[31:42] I I could go research. I have Fidel Toldra's book on dry cured meat products, and I could look into the effect of the different um salt components. But I am sure that you will be fine if your wallet allows you to use Malden uh then um then go ahead. Oh, maybe they meant uh Morton sea salt. Any sea salt's gonna work fine.
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+[32:00] Uh I would like to try a bacon cured with maple syrup for a friend. Should I just add some maple syrup to the freezer bag? I'm planning on doing this by eye until it's pretty evenly covered. Does this affect the curing process in any way that I should know? Well, you're gonna be doing a a wet cure in that, and you would substitute maple syrup for the water and sugar and then put salt into the maple syrup, I assume, right, Harold?
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+[32:19] That sounds right to me, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh number three was how long should I leave the bacon to cure? I'm guessing the amount of time will be a function of the size, shape, weight of the meat I am curing.
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+[32:28] Could you give me some guidelines? Um I don't have any in my head. Um I believe that the charcuterie book, Michael Ruman's book, has some some guidelines in it. You can accelerate the cure by putting it in a vacuum bag, but usually penetration is based on the uh the actual strength of the brine you're using, which is crucial. So if you're gonna add water to it, like with maple syrup, that's gonna reduce the brine theoretical brine strength.
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+[32:50] And then on uh certain number of days for penetration, a certain number of inches into the meat, and it also is going to depend on the particular fat, um, the fat quantity in your piece of meat uh versus the lean. Do you have any anything on that, Harold? Uh no, that's that's about all I could come up with. Um there are charts in books uh and and uh as you say, um uh days per inch guidelines, uh and uh that's that's really the place to go. Yeah.
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+[33:21] And then lastly, uh he's just ordered a piece of equipment that'll allow him to try sous vide cooking at home. Congratulations. Uh would would uh he be better cooking in the pork belly this way after curing or not? If so, is there anything you should look out for using this method? Okay, uh I happen to love pork belly uh cure uh cooked uh sous vide, uh in which case you choose the temperature you want to cook in general.
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+[33:41] I would do something l below sixty-five, something like sixty-three, uh, sixty-two, sixty-three, even as low as sixty. It's gonna take uh that's Celsius, uh so one forty and up uh in that range. Um it's gonna take uh a long time, like like th three days, two, three days to get to tendered where you want, and then crisp up the skin. Uh oh, and I think s he asked uh later, should you leave the rind on? I would, wouldn't you?
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+[34:04] Yes. Yes, definitely. I would leave the rind on, and then I wouldn't trim it at all. I would crisp the skin up uh and serve it because that's the b that's the best part once it's crisp. Leave it on forever is what I would do.
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+[34:16] Gnaw it off. Yeah, it's gonna sound a little gross. You might want to trim away the the areas where the teats are just because they don't uh they don't fit the pan as well. The crucial thing when cooking a pork belly for later uh cooking is to compress it a little bit before you do so that you get a nice flat surface to pan the skin on to make it nice and crunchy. The other thing I've noticed, and Harold, I think we've talked about this before, is that when you have uh the pork belly isn't um one specific muscle, it's a it's a group uh of muscles.
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+[34:44] Yeah. And um some of them, the ones that are the streaky portion and streaky bacon, let's say, uh they um they respond very well to uh cooking for a long time, on the order of of several days. Uh there's one muscle that runs through the pork belly in that's uh that you can really see in the cut that's called in Chinese uh five fingers or five flour, whatever it is, pork. Uh one of those muscles doesn't respond very well to long cooking and gets mushy and and uh and kind of tastes kind of dry. And so uh it's it's a muscle that looks a little um oval as you cut through the pork belly.
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+[35:20] Uh and uh I would take it out uh you know and cook that some other way. Do you have you had that experience with pork belly? Or have you noticed? Yeah. Yeah.
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+[35:28] I mean, uh in uh no matter who's made it, yeah. If that muscle is in there, then it's it's just different from the others. Um kind of like uh the shoulder. There's so many different muscles that some of them are just wonderful and others are less so. Right.
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+[35:42] I would say, yeah, I would say different and worse. Yeah. All right. And with that, listen, if anyone's out there, you have one more chance to call in 718. We're gonna go to our next second commercial break.
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+[35:53] Call in 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Nothing is new, see you to hear before. Watching wedding. We should sit with you and you got a ride through the door.
+
+[36:57] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Our producer Jack was uh pumping up the Hall of Notes his particular song because he thinks it's nice rainy day weather, which it is here in Brooklyn, rainy. Uh I'll say one last time.
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+[37:13] You have uh a couple more days to go to Mofad.eventbrite.com to purchase tickets for the museum fundraiser. I'll tell you a little bit about what I'm doing uh at the at the end of the show. But right now, let's get back. We have Harold McGee on the phone. Hey, uh, would you consider the next time you're in town on a Tuesday to uh do the show live here at the studio?
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+[37:32] Yeah, I'd love to. Love to. Nice. Nice. I was I saw I saw uh our mutual buddy Nathan Mirvo this morning.
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+[37:39] Nathan's doing uh his uh book tour. He uh booked out Jean George restaurant in the morning and they cook some of the um some of the dishes from his uh cookbook, and uh he might be a phone-in guest at some point, which would be fun. Uh just pushing, you know, we have some some good some good guests, you know, coming like uh apparently Grant Aikitz is gonna is gonna be on the uh show sometime in uh in May, I think. Uh I think I guess to push the uh opening of the new place or what? I don't know.
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+[38:07] I don't know. I just I heard from uh from his publicist. Anyways, this is what's going on in Cooking Issues Land. All right. Uh now we have a question for you from Tom M.
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+[38:17] My question from Mr. McGee is Does extended brining denature the enzymes in beef responsible for tenderizing it? I wish to have a tender corn beef brisket and I've considered cooking it sous vide for 131 for 12 to 24 hours, shocking it in an ice bath, and only then brining it. But if brining does not denature the uh the tenderizing enzymes, then I might as well brine it for a couple of days, then do a hundred and thirty-one sous-vide um, followed by low temperature smoking, and only then do a high temperature sous-vide uh to get to collagen transforming temperatures for the appropriate length of time. Uh am I making things too complicated?
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+[38:50] And can I achieve it in a simpler manner? Well, I'll just I'll say two things before I hand it off to you, Harold. Uh one, um you don't want to shock, you never want to shock uh a protein like that uh after it comes out of the um out of the bath because if you do, you're um you're basically gonna uh prevent the the meat from reabsorbing some of the juices that have been expelled during the cooking, and even at 131 you're gonna get juices expelled. So you're not gonna you're not gonna want to do that. I'm also gonna say that I think that 131's a little low for a brisket.
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+[39:25] Um might want to I've looked I it's it's people do it all the time, very rare long long cookings like this. But I find that people, if they're expecting a cut of meat that is meant to be a little higher in temperature, it's better to go a little higher in temperature. Uh but with that, let me hand it off to you, Harold. Uh yeah, I'd I'd be interested to see what that's like, 131 brisket, but I have a feeling I'm gonna I'd prefer it at a higher temperature. Um and then uh on the issue of um brining denaturing the enzymes, uh, you know that uh I've actually never thought of that.
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+[40:02] I I know uh in pretty good detail what's happening to the uh fiber proteins during brining. And that's the the major effect of uh uh tenderizing effect of a brine on meat is that it it kind of unknits the uh the muscle fibers and makes them uh easier to cut through. Um I've never thought about whether the the salt conditions are gonna change the activity of the of the enzymes that do to some extent break down the collagen and the and the fiber proteins. Um and so that's something I'm gonna go look up when we're all done. I I have no idea.
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+[40:43] But but uh as a general principle uh you want to do the brining before the cooking not after the brining is only going to have its tenderizing moistening effects if you do it while the meat is raw. Right and also you can't cure cooked meat, right? I mean corn beef is cured somewhat so it's not gonna be cure cooked meat, can you? Uh yeah it's um again kind of an interesting uh counterintuitive sort of thing I I I think probably yeah what's gonna happen is that you will desiccate it uh but but the um uh the the meat is is cooked it's done and anything you do to it with salt afterwards is just gonna uh dry it out and make it salty. Right.
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+[41:29] Right. Um yeah it's interesting I never even thought about trying to brine something afterward but I mean corn beef typically you'd add some amount of uh nitrite to it wouldn't you? I mean it's pink usually right so it's been it's been pinked. It definitely won't pink out you're gonna have it look uh gray. Well you want it these temperatures at 131.
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+[41:47] I can't do the math in my head but that's somewhere in the mid fifties, right? 131 somewhere in the mid fifty Celsius. Um and you know we do our short ribs a lot in that range but find that people prefer them up n closer to one forty, uh between you know one forty and and and l and a little over. Um but I definitely don't think you need to go through like a million different steps. I think it's going to probably affect it you know like you the more steps the more chance for things to going wrong, things to dry out, things that for problems.
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+[42:19] What do you think? No, I agree. Um and if there's a a straightforward way to do it um it's always almost always the best way to do it. Yeah yeah. All right so in the uh those are the questions that have come in so good we have at least four five minutes we can uh what are you working on?
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+[42:38] Uh um I've actually been taking a little bit of a hiatus for a variety of reasons and um have not cooked uh anything serious in in like a month so uh uh but spring is coming and uh uh I'm sure that's gonna change fast. One thing I'm gonna do uh this coming weekend that I'm looking forward to is head off to uh Spain for uh a last meal at El Bui. 'Cause it's for real gonna be the last it's like real deal last now? Uh yeah. Apparently uh july thirtieth I think is the date now the restaurant will close uh as a restaurant and then reopen in the next day or two as a uh uh think tank.
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+[43:31] Right. So who are you going with? Um a chef out here in California named Daniel Patterson. I love Daniel Patterson. Yeah.
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+[43:40] Yeah his restaurant's great. Yeah. Uh and you know we worked uh together um you know, you know, we all did uh on uh Mandy Aftell's uh and his uh taste uh what was it called? Taste the s taste the smell. What was it called?
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+[43:53] Smell in the Glove? What was it? Alchemy was in there somewhere. Yeah, alchemy of alchemy of taste and smell. Yeah, yeah.
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+[44:01] You you have any uh any articles in the pipeline that you want to uh you want to let out of the bag or you want to keep them in the bag? No, in fact that's something else I've been taking a hiatus from. Uh but I'm hoping to get uh another curious cook column into the New York Times in uh about a month. Yeah, people crave it, but you don't know what you're gonna do yet. Uh actually it's gonna be about salt.
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+[44:21] Oh yeah? What about it? And y we like what kind of what kind of aspects? So many aspects of salt. Well, uh exactly that.
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+[44:28] Uh the the fact that there are now so many salts uh and some people say that they all taste different and that's uh for example kosher salt is uh horrible stuff, nobody should ever touch it. Um uh so I'm I've collected um probably close to twenty at this point, and um there there's been a very interesting controlled study with um uh professionally trained taste panel that actually tasted about twenty different salts to see if they could tell the difference. In uh in in what form? Uh a as a point eight percent solution to to try to maximize the opportunity to taste the difference because of course if you're gonna take salt and put it in mashed potatoes or something, odds are you're gonna have no clue. Right.
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+[45:19] And it's so this is an extension of uh of uh a project. Was it was it part of the Eriche things that Steingarden went to because he was doing it in a Ricci years and years ago in his first book on salts. Remember that? Uh that's right. In fact, uh I I remember that tasting very well.
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+[45:36] Um yeah, he he arrived with these little vials of uh of some of his favorite salts and some of his least favorites, and uh then we there was a sensory scientist who took play uh took part in the RHA meetings every year, and so he organized uh uh triangle test um where basically you're you're handed three little vials and you have to tell which one is different from the other two. And uh we we all took the test in a in a series of groups, and then they tabulated the results at the end, and it turned out that of the forty people in attendance, only one person was able to correctly distinguish all of the different salts. And was that a fluke or reliably, repeatedly was able to do it? Uh we only did it once. So it it may have been a fluke, but because that one person was Jeffrey Steingarten, of course it wasn't.
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+[46:33] That's hilarious. All right, so we'll be we'll be looking forward to that. And uh so uh I'll just say what I'm working on for the museum uh fundraiser coming up. I'm doing the amouse uh boosh. I we like to, you know, in the back room we always call it the amuse douche because I think it's a ridiculous word, amoose boosh.
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+[46:51] Uh anyway, uh so the uh yeah, the amuse douche will be um I gave myself food as medicine as my as my theme, because you know everyone has a theme, like Chang is do is doing uh pre-19, uh pre-uh 1491 uh food in in America. So he's doing oysters and acorns, uh Wiley's got caveman food, Mark Ladner Rome, you know, etc. etc. So I gave myself food as medicine, and uh I'm using uh an ingredient uh I'm using uh okay, so it turns out that uh bitumen, you know bitumen, you know, like uh like uh pitch, piss asphalt, yeah. Uh huh.
+
+[47:25] Uh it's exuded uh in uh in the Dead Sea area and in Iran and has been used as a medicine for centuries as has a very similar um exudate pitch exp uh exudate um from the uh him Himalayas called uh shilajid right and so which is used in in Aravedic medicine a lot should the Shilajid is. And so this was mistranslated by um uh from the Arab because Arab you know Arab medicine was the medicine in the you know eight nine hundreds in that range right so this was mistranslated by medieval scholars in uh in like the 11th century as uh because the word in Arabic is mummii like like m like sounds like mummy and in fact the word English word for mummy is derived from the same root of like this waxy pitch bitumen our word comes from it uh anyway it mistranslated this uh medicinal ingredient mummy as ground up uh human cadavers from Egyptian mummies and here started the trade in medicinal mummies so mum mummies were ground up by the boatload and sold in apothecaries all over uh all over Europe and in fact um they ran out of uh reliable mummy supplies so they would uh make counterfeit mummies by grinding up and and and you know but taking fresh cadavers drying them out and grinding them up and so the original pitch right which was the the part that the uh the bitumen which wasn't actually in an authentic mummy because they didn't use bitumen until very late in the mummification uh process uh because it was cheap you know they used much more expensive stuff right uh but uh so it it got it it changed from the bitumen being the important part of the medicine to the actual corpse. So then it got transmogrified even more so that later on it was found that if someone died very suddenly uh in the prime of life, then that's the best mummy that you can get. So like for for centuries, up until um I mean the the prime time was like 16th and 17th century, was prime mummy medicine time. Um but it extended for a long time.
+
+[49:22] Plus, mummy was used as a pigment up until the early 20th century. The mummy was a specific color of brown made by grinding up mummies. Uh and so uh and but it's come full circle again. Also spawned like vampire legends, all sorts of cool, weird, weird, weird, weird stuff, which I think I'm gonna write about uh for the blog, definitely, maybe for somewhere else. And uh so I I've located uh a source of the uh shilajit, which is the one from the Himalayas that's used in Aerovag medicine.
+
+[49:49] And uh so I'm gonna have that as mummy. I'm gonna put that on to uh rhubarb that I'm gonna cook uh sous vide because uh Francis the First of uh France uh always carried with him mummy and rhubarb as uh some of his uh medicaments to uh help him from whatever ailed him. So that's gonna be one component is mummy, mummy and rhubarb, and the next uh component is gonna be uh when he was uh defeated by Charles V he was held captive, and the zupa alapavese was invented for uh for him at that capture, which is basically bread with uh an egg that's cooked by broth that's put into a shavings of parmesan. So I'm gonna do a little toast with uh a gelee of broth, a uh slow uh done, well not really slow, but low temperature done uh quail egg and uh parmesan twilight. And so the other two components you will have to come to the uh fundraiser to taste to tomorrow.
+
+[50:43] Anyway, so I'm gonna uh thank Harold for being on the show. Uh, hopefully we'll get you in live next time you're in. Hopefully, we'll talk to you soon. And we'll leave you with mummies cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[51:02] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. And the guests can't get it straight.
+
+[51:31] The following is a public service announcement from the Museum of Food and Drink. Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a nine-course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto, Sunday, March 27th. Their intent to kick start the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere.
+
+[51:57] How will a cutting-edge chef handle the Paleolithic or a dish only using pre-Columbian ingredients? What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome? The chefs include David Chang of Omufuku, Wiley Dufrain of WD50, Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norrin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of Salumaria Rossi, Carlo Moraci of Robert's, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina Tozi of Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh Death Company, Simon Ford of Perneau Ricard, Damon Bolti of Prime Meats, and Evan Clem of VR Guest Restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[52:38] Tickets are very limited and $250 dollars per person. To purchase tickets, please visit Mofad.eventbright.com. That's M-O-F-A-D.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D.com. Sponsored by Frenell Record, Heritage Foods USA, Pat Lafrey to Meets, Barter House Wines, Delposto Restaurant.
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+[0:09] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez in our studio in Bushwood, Brooklyn, behind Roberta's Pizzeria. Coming to you live today, as we should be doing every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:30] Today's show is brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's large sorry. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on their rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape.
+
+[0:50] For more information, go to www.hearstranch.com. That's www.hearstranch one word dot com. We've had their beef, right, Nastasha? We enjoy it. Later on, I'm gonna give a shout out to some of our other uh sponsors on previous shows because they were also sponsors of the amazing event for the Museum of Food and Drink that we just finished on Sunday.
+
+[1:11] Nastash and I are still recovering. Uh but we'll uh we'll get to that probably a little later in the show. We'll take some questions first. It came in on the emails. Um okay.
+
+[1:22] Uh Chris Beer writes in and says, I was hoping you could help with a question. When I'm making breads, pizza doughs, etc. I sometimes like to replace about half the white flour with whole wheat flour, but the dough tends to be dry. Is there a standard ratio of extra fat or liquid that need uh needs to be used when using whole wheat flour? Thanks for the help, Chris Speer.
+
+[1:38] Okay, now this is a problem I think that we all run into uh a lot when we're using whole grain items. There's actually several problems that happen. One, uh the dough t the uh breads tend to be drier. That's true. Uh same with uh things like pancakes and muffins, things tend to be drier.
+
+[1:53] Uh the second problem is you tend to have reduced uh volume, so they're they're denser, so they're denser and drier, and also more crumbly. These are three things that we in general don't enjoy in our breads and pizza doughs, correct? Correct. Correct. So um so what's the problem here?
+
+[2:09] The problem is in whole wheat flour uh you get the uh bran and also the germ actually in whole wheat flour. Now the germ actually helps out a bit in some ways because it provides oil. The reason a lot of oil is added to whole wheat uh recipes, oils and fats, is because it tends to soften uh fats in general, tend to soften the texture of uh breads so it they feel softer, they don't feel as dry just by adding oil. So you can add that stuff at your discretion, but um the other really good thing you can do to make up for uh two things that you can do to make up for lack of volume and also for dryness is to take the whole wheat portion because he's gonna take about half and half whole wheat and white, well, you know, white flour, uh, is to take the whole wheat flour and hydrate it in all the liquid first and let it sit there for a long time. Um what happens is is that even though the a good chunk of the bran of the fiber in bran is uh not soluble, i.e.
+
+[3:02] the wall it's not going to dissolve in water. Um there is a bunch of stuff in there that is soluble in water, will hydrate, but need some time to do it. And um, the more other stuff you have, the more like the rest of the white flour is there when the liquid is present, the less water is going to be available to soak into the whole wheat portion. So what you should always do with whole wheat products, and and I do this with pancakes. For instance, I my pancakes at home are uh well over half non uh non-white flour.
+
+[3:31] I I throw in wheat germ, I throw in a good bit of like uh oatmeal, and I throw in uh a bunch of cornmeal and a bunch of other things like this, and uh whole whole whole green. And um I add all of the buttermilk uh at at the very outset, along with the eggs, because they're liquid ingredients, and then I let them soak for minutes at a time in a very high liquid environment. And this helps hydrate them and prevents it from being dry. Um that you know, it that should also improve your um it should improve the the the the not only the moistness but also the the volume somewhat. The other thing is is that you're gonna tend to want to add a little bit more liquid when you have a high fiber uh uh product because the the dough is gonna probably take on more liquid.
+
+[4:10] Uh one source I read, which is the wheat flour and the high fiber uh ingredient handbooks from the Egan Press series, and I highly recommend the Egan Press series uh to all of the people out there. It's a very very easy to read, very short, not so expensive books on technical issues such as hydrocolloids, starches, uh high fiber ingredients, wheat flour, emulsifiers, very good stuff. I mean, you can skip the colorance book because most of us aren't adding a lot of food coloring to things, at least I don't. Um but you can you can either buy these books for like 68 bucks or something a pop, or it used to be, and I'm sure there probably still is. If you go to the American Association of Cereal Chemists website, you can sniff around there, it takes a while because they bury it.
+
+[4:51] You can buy a subscription to get online versions of all of these books, which you can then download. And back when I did it, it was 99 bucks, it's probably more. You get a year subscription to their website, and I downloaded all of their books. So I own them all on PDF and they're they're chilling happily on my uh iPad where I can peruse them at my leisure. Anyway, those are the sources I went to.
+
+[5:09] So you should um pre-soak, um, add a little more water. Um, and if you're dealing with a bread and and you've gotten rid of the dryness problem by the pre-soaking, add a little more water, adding oil at your discretion, you can uh further increase the volume of it, which is gonna decrease your perception of it being crumbly and whatnot, uh, by adding uh a little bit of vital wheat gluten. If you add a little bit of that, it'll counteract some of the problems you have. There's two things that go on when you add uh high fiber um brand laden things to breads. One uh in terms of gluten.
+
+[5:39] One, uh there's less overall gluten because the flour that you've added, instead of adding flour that has whatever percentage gluten it is, you've added a bunch of bran, which has zero percent gluten. Second thing that happens is that the uh brand and the fibers actually inhibit the formation of the gluten network. So what gluten is there is actually weakened. Um so you end up with a with a very low uh air holding capacity compared to white flour. And one of the ways to counteract that is to um you're gonna probably have to develop it longer, that means mix it more.
+
+[6:09] And you're probably also gonna have to uh add a little bit of uh weak gluten if you want to jack that that loaf back up to where where it used to be. All right, how's that? What was that? How's that was that okay? That was good, dude.
+
+[6:19] All right, see? Back on track after last week's non live. Although I, you know, I s last week we did the uh we did a Nathan Mirvold, uh, you know, Nathan Mirvold's amazing uh you know, eight million page book that weighs 35,000 pounds and costs like 600 bucks, so you get it on Amazon for 450. Um anyway, so he's doing his like little he's doing his press junket thing, and so we had to do one on Tuesday where we basically did uh we did uh what was it, proseco and uh clarified grapefruit juice that was carbonated, and then we'd show the glasses of liquid nitrogen. So that's why we couldn't be here uh last week on Tuesday.
+
+[6:52] So unfortunately, even though we had like our heavy hitting guest Harold McGee on the line, it was on Monday, so not a lot of you I think got to call in, so I'm I'm sad about that. Um but anyway, so we're back on our normal time today, thank goodness. Okay. Got a question in uh saying, I saw this uh, hey Nastashian David starts. I saw this pig uh stuffed pig trotter on Ideas and Food blog.
+
+[7:15] It looks incredible. And uh I'll I will read the description of the night. Ideas and food, by the way, there they're our friends, Alex Talbot Nacke, uh uh over at Ideas and Food, and they're probably the best known blog on kind of modern techniques and high-tech uh cooking, right? Wouldn't you say so? Yeah.
+
+[7:30] I saw him last week at an event also, another one of these Nathan Miravold events at uh Jean Georges restaurant, and uh it was funny. Uh Ideas and Food also has a cookbook out now. Um I think it's doing doing fairly well. But it's a the funny part was this. I think it retails for like 20 bucks, and it's on Amazon for like 14 bucks, right?
+
+[7:47] So I see Alex, I'm like, hey, how's the cookbook doing? And he was upset that I didn't have a copy yet. So I think I think he's sending us one, which is nice. But he said, yeah, on if you go to buy the modernist cuisine cookbook, the 450 cookbook, they uh they give you his book for like five bucks. Like if you if you buy it together, it's like five bucks extra to get Alex Talbot's book.
+
+[8:06] So here's a word out to you guys. Anyone out there buying uh the modernist cuisine, please do Alex Talbot a favor and click in the extra five bucks to to get his book uh along with it. So uh Alex Nathan Miravald and I had a good long laugh about this, and uh Alex and I were joking that we're just gonna take a Sharpie to his entire stock of books and write seven as like the seventh volume of the Modernist Cuisine book and just ship it along with it. Way! It's only five bucks extra.
+
+[8:30] You know, that's really a drop in the bucket. Let's like pissing in the ocean to raise the tide, you know, an extra five bucks. Anyways, go out and buy Alex's book. So uh here's what they Alex Nacke's book, I should say. I'm apologize.
+
+[8:41] Here's what it says. Pictured here is the rear trotter from the pig. The force meat is flavored with Ross Alhun and an exotic morotic maraudic spice blend. We added meat from the shoulder, knuckles, and ankles, and just for that extra uh special something, a few foie gras pieces. We added a touch of activa, that's meat glue for all of you non-meat glue people out there, as insurance to bind everything together.
+
+[8:58] Unfortunately, our finished trotter was too large for our vacuum bag, so we divide it into two pieces. This allowed us to present the whole foot and fortuitously gave us another piece to enjoy as seconds. Okay, so uh stuffed pig strotter, right? The most famous uh oh, sorry. And and the question about this was he saw it and he wants to know how long to cook it and at what temperature if he's gonna do it low temperature.
+
+[9:18] Uh and he says somewhere in the area of 60 to 65 degrees Celsius for 48 to 72 hours. And do I have any advice? I think your numbers are good. Uh I don't think you're gonna 60 to 65 Celsius, in other words, I think are good. I I would do something between 60 and 63 Celsius myself, 62, 63.
+
+[9:35] Uh I don't think you're gonna need to cook it for 48 to 72 hours. And here's why. I think a lot depends on on what size pieces of meat you put into it. The classic uh pig shrotter that you know I grew up knowing about is uh a delicacy, a New Year's E uh New Year's Eve delicacy from Modena, Italy, called Zampone. And zimpone, what they do is they uh they take a pig's trotter and you bone it completely out, take out all the meat and and take off the toenails, and you do it by slowly turning the skin of the pig's foot inside out and removing the uh the the bones, meat, and you know, all of the connected tissue stuff as you go, so that you basically have the pig's foot as a glove almost, right?
+
+[10:15] Uh you then take that zampone, they the the pig's foot that's you know been to totally denuded, right? Do that raw, by the way, otherwise the pig skin's gonna be too fragile, it's gonna break apart on you. And um take that raw and then uh stuff it with a mix that's uh that the sausage is called cotequino. If you just have the the meat by itself without the pig's foot, it's called cotequino. And then you uh that's typically cooked, uh boiled, and then served with lentils on New Year's uh lentils for luck, because it represents money.
+
+[10:42] So uh the problem with doing this in the US is that the pig's uh trotters are slit typically when they when they get the pigs, the pig's trotters are slit, and so they don't hold uh the filling as well. But if you have meat glue, you can kind of fix all these problems. And if you look in a Chinese butcher shop, you can get pigs' feet that haven't been slit like the regular American style, and you can make a good zamponi. As long as the um meat is finely divided, you don't need to cook it that long. The length of cooking time really is to gelatinize the starch in the in the pig's foot.
+
+[11:11] And so you can do it by feeling how long it's taking the this the uh gelat and the collagen and the pig's foot to break down because the meat on the inside is finely chopped and it's not going to be that much of a problem. So I don't think it should take as long as uh 72 hours, but you know, you you can give it a try. I would just, as a test before you went through the whole thing, just throw a piece of pig skin into a bag and test how long it takes for it to get to the texture you want. Um, and that's gonna give you uh a good idea. But uh go research.
+
+[11:39] Zamponi is cooked for a long time, like they boil for like like two to four hours, so um at at simmering temperatures. So give it a shot. Um and I think it would be delicious in a bag because you wouldn't be leaching the flavor out to the broth. Anyway, I hear we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[11:53] Hi, Dave. Howdy. This is Michael Natkin. Um I have a question for you about caramelization in a pressure cooker. Alrighty.
+
+[12:02] So I got to see Nathan Mirvold speak a few times lately, and I haven't gotten to look at the book yet, but he gave sort of a partial recipe for making a caramelized root vegetable soup in the pressure cooker where you don't add any water at all. Right. So you chop up some carrots, you throw them in the pressure cooker or cook at high pressure for thirty minutes and they come out uh very uh smooth, easy to puree, and caramelized. And it it works great, it's delicious. But I don't understand why it's working.
+
+[12:27] Um he refers to it as caramelized, right? Not as myard. That's right. He refers to it as caramelized, and I wouldn't think there's enough protein in carrots to do myard reactions, but maybe I'm wrong about that. That's interesting.
+
+[12:40] Uh I saw him speak a couple of times. I had the dish. Um and uh were you at the Jean George? Which event were you at? No, I was at the book launch in Seattle and also he came to speak of my work a couple of times.
+
+[12:51] Right. Um that's an interesting question, because uh uh like you, I wouldn't consider I've done some experiments with uh caramelization in pressure cookers, but most of them were done in very high concentration sugar syrups. Right. So I would throw uh fruits into high concentration sugar syrups and then pressure cook those and got definite caramel like caramel flavors. Like uh and and this and it in the I did this because I did some experiments with durian, removing kind of the stench from durian, and one time uh a bunch of the juices went to the bottom of the of the pressure cooker and were at the exact proper temperature to form a caramel without burning.
+
+[13:32] And then was never never ever able to reproduce it, unfortunately. But then I started doing like caramelized bananas and other caramelized fruits and high sugar syrups. I don't know why you would get uh caramelized flavor in a non i you need look t w as we both know you need a high enough temperature to um unl unless unless caramelization happens at lower temperatures under pressure, which is possible. Right. So I was wondering if that could be the case.
+
+[13:58] And then the other thing I had noticed is that fructose caramelizes at a lower temperature, and there is some fructose in carrots, so that could be a possibility. Right, and you don't uh and I don't know, does he add acid to the recipe? In which case you would get inversion. No, you don't add anything at all. Yeah.
+
+[14:13] And and it really, you know, it definitely has a clear caramelized flavor. And then the other the other question I had about that, because I I put this recipe on my website, you know, with the various things that I put in it to make it a nice little moose boosh, and people are concerned about the safety. Now I didn't have any problems at all in my electric cooker. But that's temperature regulated. And I got a little concerned.
+
+[14:32] Well, if I tell somebody to do this on a stove top pressure cooker without any liquid added, is there is there any risk that's being created there? Well, okay, I s oh you know what? That's also maybe true. You're gonna get localized much higher temperatures. Yeah, right.
+
+[14:45] That's another possibility. Yeah. I mean, you won't in an electric, but in a uh in a gas, you will. I asked him I was in one of the dinners in Seattle, and I personally asked him about this. I said, Will this work in a gas-fired pressure cooker on the stove?
+
+[14:59] And he said, Yes. Uh I I looked around at the pressure cookers that he uses. Uh he has uh an American canner, one of the big ones, although I doubt he uses this for that recipe because it takes so longer for the flong for those to get up to pressure. I think he has uh he has a bunch lying around. I'm sure he's got some coon recons because they're awesome.
+
+[15:17] Uh and he can afford it. You know, um it's a it's an interesting question. Uh I don't think it's gonna be a safety issue because I mean there's no there's no safety issue because the the worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna scorch the heck out of your um out of your vegetables. Right. Right.
+
+[15:32] And because what'll happen is is that uh the only danger really in a pressure cooker is that you're gonna build up pressure and the pressure relief valves are gonna continue to work no matter what. And there's three different overpressures on that thing. Right. The the the gaskets themselves are good up to about five hundred and so degrees, and so the plastic will be melting off of the unit before the uh gaskets go on you. And even if the gaskets were gonna melt, like they're not made out of vitamin or something that's gonna decompose into a toxic deadly gas.
+
+[16:01] So uh yeah, if we if any one of those things weren't true, like if for some reason someone decided to move to Viton SEALs, you know, I don't know if they had an excess of money and a lack of good sense, like there might be a safety issue, but I think you could basically just melt the pot down on the stove without without too much of a safety issue. Okay. Um but I I'm uh you've now I don't know why I wasn't observant enough to uh ask that question at the time. Uh I I myself don't own a copy of the book. There is one in the school, so I can go go look at it.
+
+[16:29] Unfortunately, right now, as I'm sure if you heard him speak, there's a dearth of the books in the country. You know, they're you know, he likes to say they're literally uh like they're literally on a boat, uh, you know, on a slow boat from China, like quite literally. I know. I have my my my order, uh I keep looking at Amazon waiting for the you know, my date keeps moving out. So I mean he donated he donated a book to uh the museum's auction that we had, and uh he's like, but you know, I'll donate it, but you're not gonna have it there live because they just don't they don't exist.
+
+[16:56] You know, it's kind of like uh it's unbelievable. I think he's actually gonna make money off this thing. I know, I know. Well, they've already you know started a second printing, so that's pretty incredible. Yeah, second printing of 25,000.
+
+[17:06] That many. Yeah. Unfortunately, the paper they're printing on, the first paper was Japanese, and they were not able to reach the company on the phone after the uh tsunami, and so they're they went with a Chinese paper the second time around. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:21] Uh anyway, uh th thanks for calling in. We hope to hear from you again soon. Okay, thanks, Dave. All right. So I guess we should go to our first commercial break.
+
+[17:28] This is cooking issues. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. One that's done are the big two sent out to bear. Things to go to if you are going anywhere.
+
+[18:02] It's the truth that the truth makes us so alive. Stand all the things you want all real. You have you to complete, and that is the deal. Stand. There's a midget standing tall.
+
+[18:52] And the giant beside him about the fall. Tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house. A weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired, and despised. Each week, Curtis B.
+
+[19:18] Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture themes to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms. Again, that's every Sunday at 4 30 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Oh, welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[19:42] That's 718-497-2128. Stand. There's a midget standing tall and a giant beside him about to fall. I have not heard that song in a long time. But that is one hardcore butt-kicking tune.
+
+[19:53] It's kind of a in my head, there's a race between at their funkiest, kind of who's the funkiest human of all times. And sometimes I think it's Sly and the Family Stone. Sometimes I think it's James Brown. And sometimes I think it's Stevie Wonder. And then every once in a while, when I'm in a special weird mood, I'll crank up the house quake and think Prince might be one of the funkiest human beings of all time.
+
+[20:14] I'm my brain's my brain's all messed up today. Anyway, I appreciate the Sly and the Family Stone. Uh before I leave the um Pig Trotter entirely, I didn't completely answer the question. Uh they the there was more stuff. Any other things to keep in mind?
+
+[20:28] Do you think I need transglutaminase or will the trotter hold together well enough on its own? Uh thank you. And we rock apparently, Stasi, which I did not know, which I'm glad to hear. And he was also digging the Hall Notes, but Nastasha decided they're going to switch it up. So we had two weeks of Hall Notes, and now we're gonna we're going to Sly and the Family Stone this week.
+
+[20:45] Um, I don't think you're gonna need the transglutaminase if you use a ground meat that's been bound by mixing it with salt, like you would a traditional sausage, unless there's a lot of damage to the actual skin of the pig's trotter itself. If you're using large chunks of meat, as they did in the ideas and food uh picture, then I think a little activa meat glue would help bind the thing together. I think uh just the fact that you're gonna put it into a vacuum bag, or if you don't have a vacuum bag, roll it in plastic is gonna also help keep it together while it's poaching. Uh and so I don't think you're you're gonna have too much of a problem, but hey, it couldn't hoit, especially if you're going to do any sort of post-searing to it uh to you know that it to crisp up the outside skin, which I don't think is actually traditional, is it? You don't tr uh the Zamponi?
+
+[21:29] I don't know. I don't know whether you traditionally would uh do it because I've only ever done it in my house. I've never had it out. You know what I mean? I've only ever made it myself.
+
+[21:35] Um anyway, so uh hope that I've almost forgot to finish asking that question. Okay. Now, uh we have another question. Uh and I probably should have saved this one uh for for last because it's in c it's got some gross stuff in it. So me and my answer has some gross stuff in it.
+
+[21:51] Uh I work for a French Chef who says uh you cannot digest tomato skins. He claims they pass undigested through your digestive tract. Can you please look into this, Mike? PS, you may this is referring to the blog now. PS, you may as well remove the forums that has been taken over by Spam Bots and you ignore the posted questions.
+
+[22:08] Okay. I'm first gonna answer the the the PS on that. Mike, we are aware of the problem of the spam bots, and I am personally aware of my non-responsiveness problem. Uh as for the spam bots, we are we are basically uh trying to get to position where we can have our webmaster give control of the forums to a few of our trusted members like Barzelay and whatnot. Uh and I want them to clean it up.
+
+[22:33] I want the forums to stay alive. It's uh hard for me to check uh all that stuff. It's recently because of all the stuff I've been working on, hard enough for me to uh time in a timely fashion answer all the blog questions, which I'm pledged to do. I will eventually answer every single question posted on the blog. But the forums are getting tough to me.
+
+[22:51] I hope to keep them useful and eradicate the spam bots, and to that end, we are going to give control of those forums to some of the loyal forum folks. We're just waiting for our webmaster to get back from his vacation with his vacation. Not vacation from work. Uh plus he's got a new baby. And uh and so anyway, we're we're on it and we apologize.
+
+[23:11] Um as for the second question, I think we might have a call in, so I might answer the second part of the question later. Is that true, Jack? Do we have a call? No. No?
+
+[23:20] Okay. So I will answer that question. Um it is true that tomato skins can pass uh undigested through your digestive tract. There's two main kinds of fiber that we have, right? There's insoluble fiber and soluble fiber.
+
+[23:33] Soluble fiber, things like pectin, they go through uh they go through, you know, the a lot of your digestive tract un undigested, but then get digested by bacteria because they're water soluble in your in your large intestine, uh, and that's things like pectin, right? Then there's uh insoluble fiber that's basically not water soluble at all and doesn't get damaged by bacteria and basically pass through your intestine un un undigested, we'll say, right? And there's a lot of insoluble fiber in tomatoes, like so. Some things that are insoluble fiber are hemicellulose and lignin. So tomato skins have a lot of that in it.
+
+[24:07] And I was I was checking basically what we have a caller now? Alright, I'll come back and finish this question because it's gonna take a while. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Uh, just a quick question.
+
+[24:17] I I just recently learned about uh salt risen bread. Salt rising bread. Yeah, apparently it's uh bacterial action that leavens it or something. But it made me think about I had a another question. What how come there's such a difference between like soda breads, you know, uh chemically leavened breads and yeast breads?
+
+[24:37] Like yeast breads are more Is that just the gluten formation? From the yeast, or I mean gluten. They're fun, they're fundamentally different, right? So a uh a a yeast a yeast one, the volume is is provided by the uh the aeration uh of the yeast that it happens uh inside of an already formed uh network with gluten, right? Whereas a quick whereas a quick bread you could it is not gluten dependent.
+
+[25:01] It's not relying on on gluten um for its uh structure. I mean it helps, obviously, right? Uh and and toughens it. But yeah, they're fundamentally different. So f finish out your finish out your question there.
+
+[25:14] I was just that was just a uh a musing in my head. So there's just less gluten formation with uh the chemically leavened or I mean, because I mean yeast breads, it's like almost stringy and chewy, you know, when you pull them apart. But uh soda breads, they just crumble. You know, there's not that uh Right. I don't know.
+
+[25:34] Right. I mean look, it's certainly possible to do yeast uh so for instance, it's not the yeast itself. So when you take um Okay Well All right, there's there's a bunch of stuff going on. If it's only yeast, you're not gonna probably get that much of a pH change. If you if you're yeast plus bacteria, you're gonna get uh a radical pH shift, which is gonna also affect the gluten, make it slacky with that sourdough y kind of texture, right?
+
+[25:59] So have you ever made have you ever made overnight yeast pancakes? Uh no. Yeah. So you'd make like a regular pancake battery you add yeast and you let the thing go overnight, and then in the morning you also usually add a secondary leavener and you make it, and it's got that great yeasty taste, but it still basically has the texture of a pancake, but it is more like a crumpet at that point. Like it's got that weird kind of bubbly, airy thing in it.
+
+[26:20] Um they're fundamentally different in that a quick uh uh uh a yeast leavened bread, right, relies on either a gluten formation, gluten network, or some sort of other air trapping network like pentazans and a rye bread, something like that, right? It's relying on a structure to hold the air because the air is being produced, well the or the not the air, the CO2 really is being produced over a long period of time before pre-baking. Uh whereas the chemically leavened breads are relying on it on a quick source of aeration that happens at or close to the time of baking. Um either through an acid base reaction or through the heat decomposition of uh the product into you know salts and CO2. So uh for instance, you could probably add a uh chemical leavener to a I've never done it though, to a gluten raised, I mean to a to a high gluten thing to see what happens.
+
+[27:17] But I think it's just fundamentally a difference in dose structure. Okay. Does that make sense? Very cool. You think you think I'm right?
+
+[27:24] Someone will call in. If I'm not right, someone will call in. And I've never made uh salt salt rising bread. Uh have you ever have you ever tried it? I I tried it, yeah.
+
+[27:32] That's and it was also kind of crumbly like um, you know, soda bread and stuff. That's but uh yeah, I was just wondering if you had any knowledge or experience on that. What was the technique? Was it was it was it needed a lot or no? No idea.
+
+[27:45] I just I mean, I saw it at this festival and I got a loaf and I tried it, and I'm like, well, that's interesting. And I Wikipedia'd it and that's about it. Alright, so uh so Nastasha, put that on our list of things to uh you know, that's something I wish McGee, I'm sure has tried that a bunch of times. Anyway, so we'll we'll we'll try to look into it. If my memory serves me, which it's doing less and less these days, I will uh you know, yeah, because tomorrow's my fortieth birthday, so my brain is starting to to fester.
+
+[28:09] Happy birthday. Oh, thanks, thanks. So uh yeah, so uh uh next time I speak to McGee, I'm gonna try and get him on that, and we'll try to include that on our list of things to research. Yeah, I meant to call you uh last week. Sorry about that.
+
+[28:14] Yeah, no problem, no problem. Oh yeah, because you know what? We actually get a lot of a lot of our interesting ideas come out of questions like this. So we're definitely gonna look into it. Thanks, thanks so much for the call.
+
+[28:29] No problem. All right. Now, back to tomato skins. Um I forget where I left off, so there might be some overlap. So uh there's a lot of uh hemicellulose and things like that, hemicellulose and lignin being two of the primary insoluble fibers.
+
+[28:41] And they pass through your system relatively unscathed, especially if they're not masticated, i.e. chewed or blended, right? So, yes, you can see tomato skins in in um your poop. But um they uh they're not in any way, they're not in any way harmful. Uh I looked up uh unfortunately my uh the person who's uh internet access to all of the good scientific journals that I've been stealing for years, their password changed, and I haven't been able to get the new password yet.
+
+[29:10] So I'm I'm uh I'm kind of out in the dark as regards my usual ability to research things on the internet. It's kind of pathetic. I'm f I'm 40 years old and I'm stealing somebody's password to get to uh to scholarly articles. It's kind of like the equivalent of of living in my mom's basement. But uh no offense to anyone you know living in their mom's basement.
+
+[29:31] What? Offense. Well, Nastash says offense. I don't. Anyway, so but one of the articles I was able to find was change in the bioability, vi bioavailability of the proteins and tomato processing wastes from 1996 that point to the fact that the tomato uh pro tomato pulp uh tomato skin and seeds are relatively undigestible.
+
+[29:48] And a relatively new one um by uh in came out in 2010 uh by uh Garcia Herrera, that where they measured it and they said there's a relatively high percentage of insoluble fibers in uh tomato uh peel tomato skin. And so yeah, it's gonna pass through. Uh now here's the problem. There's a bunch of people out there, and this is what you if you search tomato skin, you're gonna come up along on this website called Cure Zone. And uh what a good chunk of these people on cure, and I don't know anything about the Cure Zone people, so if you guys are cure zone people, you want to call and tell me what it's all about, tell me.
+
+[30:20] But it seems like a bunch of people that I saw who are obsessed with their poop. So what they do is is they'll take some sort of like colon blow, you know, cleanse situation, and then they'll uh examine their poop in detail to see what kind of went through it. And uh a lot of these guys are uh petrified of this parasite called uh echinostoma uh r uh recurva recurvatrum, which apparently looks it's a it's a a fluke, a worm, and it looks a whole hell of a lot like a tomato skin. But everyone thinks that they have this, and and and they're backed up by a lot of research amongst the same people, but not a whole lot of medical doctors calling in, right? So it's like people like Nastasha here who have what have you self-diagnosed yourself with recently?
+
+[31:02] Everything, right? I don't remember. Well, yeah, you don't remember because it's like every day she comes in, she's like, my nose is gonna fall off in the next week, I'm sure of it. Anyway, uh there seems to be a whole lot of uh self diagnosis of this uh echinostoma fluke. And uh, but most of the people I think who are saying it like don't live anywhere near a place where you would get it, for instance, in certain places in Asia and things like that.
+
+[31:26] So I would assume that if you're looking at your poops, it's tomato skins and not uh and not worms. Um, because there's a whole lot of things that can pass through your your system on digestive, especially if you're taking something like colon blow, which incre which decreases transit time. That's just a polite way of saying all this stuff. If you decrease transit time, by the way, there's an incredibly cute little girl who's like putting her face into the window as we're uh as we're uh speaking here. Anything that you can do to uh decrease the transit time means you're gonna digest this stuff even less and it's gonna come out looking more and more whole.
+
+[31:59] Gross, gross. Let's take another break. All right, we're gonna go to our second commercial break. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:07] Sorry to gross you out. Cooking issues. It is interesting. I'm a bad man, my bag my thing. Oh yeah.
+
+[33:04] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Boom Laca Lacalaka, boom, laka lockalaka. That is a good song. I wish the listeners could have seen Dave bouncing on the chair and uh Nastasia standing still there. I'll tell you what, to go back to to go back to yes, you you know, yes, that's true, bouncing up and down, but uh it goes back to the gross stuff we were talking about just before the break.
+
+[33:25] That song, uh uh the reason I like that song so much, besides from the the s severe butt kicking that it gives everyone, is the bass trombone in that thing, which uh just really fills out the bottom end of that song, and like uh you know, that kind of a song, when you play it loud enough, it's like it's uh a butt rumbling thing. So it fits with it fits with the with the theme. Why? Stand. Oh, the midget standing tall, giant about beside him about the fall.
+
+[33:53] I think so. The great one of the greatest lines of all time. I wonder what Sly and the fan. I wonder what Sly is up to these days. I hear he's a producer now.
+
+[33:59] He was in prison for a while and very. Really? Mm-hmm. Nastasha just having seen Elton John in concert. Uh okay.
+
+[34:09] So here's an update. We talked about uh radiating corn with uh atomic weapons uh and also the uh corn mutations and shrunken corn. So uh uh a friend actually of Nastasha's from childhood named Dev wrote in and said uh he hopes is all is well, which it is. Uh he just stumbled onto our uh podcast last week, uh and he's a biochemistry nerd, and he thinks he has a partial answer for my corn question about using radiation to get sweet corn. Radiation treatment is a common way to do a mutagenic screen, and this was one of the methods that Nobel laureate Barbara McClintock was able uh to discover, uh use to discover mobile genetic elements, transposons.
+
+[34:44] These transposons are why corn kernels have such heterogeneous, uh heterogeneous kernel coat colorings. Not each kernel is an exact genetic copy of the entire plant. As far as whether it was used for shrunken too, which is the the gene that helps super sweet corn be super sweet in particular, I don't know. It is possible. That strain seems to have been around since the 40s.
+
+[35:02] I think late, late 40s, early 50s, might have to re re-re-research my uh stuff. But it may have been an existing strain and was just first described in the literature that way. The biochemistry of that strain is pretty interesting too, but I can tell you about that later, uh, which I hope you do. He does have a question for us, not so much a question, but a dare. You've done inhibitors of sweetness and sour uh turning into sweet, that's miraculin, and the uh sweetness inhibitor is genemic acid, which you can actually buy if it turns out in uh Ayurvedic shops.
+
+[35:28] You don't need to go to uh herb like online herb shops. You can go into Calustean's or the dual spice specialty shop here in New York and buy genemia silvestri and uh take it and obliterate your sweetness. Uh you can look it up on our blog. We have a post on it. Um you should do bitter inhibitors, bitter blockers.
+
+[35:43] I know these are additives to some medicines to make them go down better. Give it a try. Uh and he hopes to hear from us. Well, we actually have tried it, but we tried it as part of someone else's experiment. Uh Francis Lamb on uh it was a salon.com, right?
+
+[35:56] The thing was on? Yeah, on Salon.com. That's hilarious. You should everyone should go right now, after they listen to us, don't leave right now, to uh Francis Lamb, uh who's uh we like him a lot, good writer on Salon.com, and he was uh doing a bitter blocker test, uh adenosine monophosphate, and he brought it in and we tested it with a bunch of different uh products that were bitter to see how they affected it. And they were all affected to uh they were affected to greater or lesser degrees.
+
+[36:21] And I think part of the problem with bitter blockers is that um unlike sour and sweet, where we have uh basically, you know, uh one or a few receptors, right? There are like over fifty kinds of receptors for bitterness. And so I doubt that there's necessarily going to be a broadband bitter blocker that's gonna knock everything down. The way that you can literally obliterate your sense of sweetness with genemic acid. Uh we were not able to completely obliterate the bitterness of things like coffee.
+
+[36:49] Uh what else do we test? Chocolate, although we beer. Although we were able to affect them. Uh it also, the bitter blocker that we use, the uh Dennis monophosphate, seemed to be much more dose and time dependent and also seemed to increase as you took more and more of it than uh we took much more than the recommended uh daily allowance of that stuff. Uh but it seemed much more dependent on those kind of factors than gymnemic acid, which just it's it's like bonehead simple.
+
+[37:16] You take it, everything's gone. Or miraculin, uh, you know, the where you take it, and you know, it definitely has an effect no matter what the sour thing is that you're adding, it has an effect. So we have experimented with it, but I didn't feel it was right to write about it since it was Francis' thing, and his article is far more hilarious than anything I could have um said about it. Uh Brasky writes in, I'm not smart enough to actually make this into a question. I'm sure you are, you know, he's being humble, I guess.
+
+[37:41] Uh but and this came in what I think it's a girl. She it's a she? I think it's a she. Well, I'm sure she's smart enough. Uh Brasky sounds like I I was thinking of it as a first name, it sounds like a first name.
+
+[37:52] Yeah, right? Yeah. Okay, it's a last name. Okay. Uh came in yesterday, but too late for Harold and I to get uh a hold of.
+
+[37:57] Um do you have any suggestions for improving beef at home? Is there a way to uncork beef that's gone flabby and purple? My friend is a grass-fed beef farmer, uh getaway farm in Nova Scotia. And while the beef is quite good, I often think it would be best if grain finished, but he says it's really hard on the cow's stomachs and removes most of the healthiness of grass-fed beef. Uh and there uh sh she or he is it she?
+
+[38:17] Oh, hey. He's a huge fan of our work. Good. Uh here's here's the deal. Uh it is hard on the cow's stomach uh over long periods, but there's no question that it does uh fatten them up quickly, which tenderizes them.
+
+[38:29] As for the healthiness, I'm not sure um I'm not sure I'm a believer in any health claim on uh beef, either pro or anti. I eat beef because I really like it a lot. Uh grain-fed beef tends not to need as much aging to get it to be tender because usually it's more inherently tender uh because it's just been fattened up with grain. Um, if it's gone uh flabby and purple, I'm assuming that it's being aged in a uh in a cryo bag, and you should be able wet aged if it's going purple, in which case you should be able to get it back in fairly good shape just by getting it out of the bag and letting it uh dry out. Because regular dry aging, right, has two different processes.
+
+[39:11] One, the purpleness is probably coming from a lack of oxygen from being inside of the bag, right? That's what purple comes from usually. Um so uh the flabbyness could be because the moisture has been staying in there too long, you know, it's too much moisture in there. So dry aging does two things. One, it tenderizes the meat by uh having enzymes continue to act on the meat and thereby break down the proteins, right?
+
+[39:32] And two, uh it tends to dry out the meat uh uh slightly, which increases the flavor because what's being removed is water, which is relatively flavorless. So in general, I think grass-fed beef, in order to be really delicious, um, should be aged, dry aged, preferably. Uh, and then the the challenge becomes with dry aging grass-fed beef that it typically doesn't have a large fat cap on the outside because it hasn't been finished with grain. And if you age something that doesn't have a large fat cap on the outside, it tends to lose moisture too quickly and you lose a lot of the meat on the outside, which then uh is a is a problem with cost and also a problem with um well, it's mainly a problem with cost. Because the fat keeps the moisture in and allows the enzymes to work for a long time without a radical amount of uh of moisture loss.
+
+[40:17] Um that said, um, you know, that whether you want grass-fed or you want grain-fed is largely a matter of taste. I know some people who really just love the taste of grain-fed beef, and you know, they're not too concerned about what it's gonna do to the cow's stomach since they're about to take a captive bolt gun and shoot it in the head anyway. Was that callus? What? That's the truth.
+
+[40:37] You know, people need to realize we're killing animals when we're eating meat. Anyway, I hope that at least somewhat answers the question. Okay, and I think we've taken care of all the mailing questions, which means we can use the last portion of this uh show to unless there's a caller at 718 4972128, 7184972128, unless there's a question, we can spend the rest of the time talking about our awesome fundraiser that we had on Sunday, right? Yeah. It was awesome.
+
+[41:03] We kicked ass. Yeah well you know I don't think you're allowed to say that on the air but yes we did. No I realized if eater can use it we can right. Oh if eater can use it yeah so if look don't take our word for how awesome it was go on eater.com go to uh timeout new youth did food and wine uh put anything up on their blog yet so Daniel Gritzer anyway um so Heritage Foods right our parent here was one of the sponsors as was Pernot Ricard who gave us all the booze and the Barterhouse which is one of our uh you know the the the fine people behind the wine booza which you should all go buy they gave us a bunch of good wine Pat Lafrida gave us the meat uh we was at Del Posto the French culinary um you're gonna go to our website soon and see all of the all of the sponsors and like a complete rundown of what we did but basically I'm gonna give you uh the rundown on what the what the food and drink was. I'm not gonna talk about the mummy powder because I already talked about the mummy powder last week and you can go to the blog uh for more but Cesare came in with a whole passel of uh awesome cured meats, so you know, uh mainly prosciutto, parmigiano, and and some really really good salumi.
+
+[42:05] Uh I didn't even ask the name, I was too busy shoveling it in my face to kind of ask the name for it. Um we then had uh um coming in after that, we had Nils did hit I gave him fad diets, and he he did something called the real South Beach diet, which was a cabbage soup and a Cuban sandwich, because South Beach di diet has cabbage soup, but he says in South Beach what they're really eating is Cuban sandwiches. So it was like the flavors of Cuban sandwich, and then a shot of like a pure cabbage soup that was was delicious. And then um then next uh Damon Bolti came out with uh martell and orange, basically like an old oldie fashion kind of thing, which was freaking delicious. They had a bunch of that, and we served with that was uh was uh Carlo Morachi came out with his lamb and mint, which was like a like a ch like mint jelly and yogurt.
+
+[42:49] This was based on New York circa like 1780s, and like a little piece of lamb that uh breast that was uh seared on all sides, great stuff, right? Then uh after that, Evan Clem, bartender, came out with um his ketzicato drink. That was good. So he grew his own corn. I don't know where the hell he grew his own corn, but he grew his own corn and made sort of a corn like orchata thing and uh put a little bit of licorice in it by using absinthe and then uh with vodka to booze it up because that's Evan.
+
+[43:17] You know, Evan can't do anything without boozing it up. So he served that uh as as a foil to Dave Chang's dish, which was called It's a Shame We Know More About Dinosaurs and About What Native Americans Ate. And he called up a guy, he wanted it to be actually Hudson, like what they ate here in Manhattan. And his thing, he spent like hours and hours researching. He called every uh Native American tribe leader from here to here to hell, and called up like you know um uh anthropologists and uh archaeologists and everything, and turns out that we know Jack Squat about how this stuff was prepared and eaten.
+
+[43:48] We just know what they ate. And so he called up, we all we know that the oysters were bigger because we have the shell mittens, middens. So we called up a friend of his who's an oyster producer in uh up in Long Island, like old school blue point oysters, and he's like, keep some growing for a lot longer. And so, because we told him early what what he was gonna do. And these oysters were some big oysters.
+
+[44:07] They're the biggest oysters from this coast I've ever seen, ever. And he cooked them because the Native Americans cooked them. And he served them with acorns and uh dried berries, uh, with like some some like uh greenery on top. And that was very interesting. He took it like he was the most kind of literal interpretation.
+
+[44:23] I think my Carlo Carlo as well, what was going on, but you know, fascinating, fascinating stuff. After that, we had an auction where we auctioned off like a Nathan Miravold, Chris Young book, a polycycient circulator. Uh I lost my voice during the auction because I went crazy. What? Where is it?
+
+[44:37] Which circulator. Uh I don't know. Uh I don't we apparently we've lost the circulator. I hope not. We'll have to find it.
+
+[44:43] But the um uh we auctioned off a signed chef jacket for 900 bucks, which was awesome. Uh we then did uh caveman food and Thomas Wall from Def and Co did uh Pierre Jouet champagne and Lindemann's pech lambic beer because he's like, I don't know, it was fermented. It's delicious, delicious. Uh you gotta know Thomas for that to be funny, but uh anyway. And then uh Wiley came out with uh like a crazy plating contraction that looked amazing.
+
+[45:08] He made fake, he wanted to do bone marrow because it was like cavemen like eating bones. So he made a fake bone marrow out of uh out of uh like a both fake bone out of potato, uh, which you know he said basically they used tubers, they didn't use potatoes, but since we don't know what tubers they ate, it might as well be a potato. Uh and then it looked just like the outside of a bone, and then he filled it with bone with a bone marrow mix that he made. Uh and then he had like instead of like blood from the animal, he had like a beet puree because they would have had roots and things they would have ate as well. He then took a Noki mushrooms and dehydrated them to look like twigs, like they were like lying around on the ground.
+
+[45:40] They looked freaking amazing. And then he had some sort of like edible grass on top of that. So it looked pretty damn cool, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:44] Then came ancient Rome. Uh, and uh Audrey Saunders came on board with uh her Madeira Martinez, which was uh like uh it was basically Madeira and uh and bay leaf infused uh gin. That was some delicious, delicious business. Uh I drank a little much of that one. And uh and then Mark came out, Ladner from Del Posto, the home chef, with I swear to God, a whole ostrich.
+
+[46:12] Showed up with a whole ostrich, and then we had another one cooked and served uh, you know, with spice like Roman style on bread, like almost like on trenchers. Like uh I didn't know they did that in Rome, but I get yeah, I did know that. But kind of like trenchers in medieval times. So that was that was amazing. The dish was called Big Bird.
+
+[46:28] Uh and then after that came the desserts. And uh the first thing that went out was uh an espresso martini to kind of reinvigorate everyone, the Kentucky put out. That was also delicious. It was espresso martini with uh with uh Sinar, China, I think it's China, which is an artichoke uh liqueur that was absolutely great, and that was paired with uh with Brooks Headley, who did uh an uh basically a sweet dessert made of uh fried artichokes because his was uh Hebrew food in Italy, so he was taking that's basically an old uh it's like uh what is it, carciofiala juda, which is a Jewish like a recipe, and then sweetened it with a matz and made a mazzo uh matza ricotta ice cream, and apparently it was delicious. But since no one saved me any, I didn't get to try it.
+
+[47:09] Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Then I served uh a martell cognac mark cordon blue with uh mana, that's mana from heaven.
+
+[47:17] You can find it on our blog. It's some real business. You know, it's like dried up, you know, dried up plant sap that God sent to save the Israelites, if you believe in that sort of thing. And Tozi sent out Space Food, which was uh she did an uh her take on uh Neapol astronaut ice cream, Neapolitan uh ice cream. And everything was delicious, everything was amazing, and a big uh big thanks.
+
+[47:37] We had actually some people from the listeners from the radio show who came. Uh Ken Ingbert came, Colin Gore came. We thank you very much. Uh Ariel from UC Davis came. The other guy was Brian Corio.
+
+[47:49] Brian Corio came. Uh uh or his dad came. They both came. He didn't say hello, did it? The whole family came.
+
+[47:54] Anyway, amazing. Thank you so much. Uh we hope to do it again in six months on the West Coast for anyone that listens on on the West Coast. Listeners can't see, but I'm crying in the booth. No, yeah, because Jack didn't get to go.
+
+[48:06] He was here busy doing radio because he didn't he that's so he didn't get to go, even though he was obviously we wanted him to come, so he missed out on what turned out to be one of the most epic lunches of all time. And this is big as pizza, though. What? Ida Roberta's pizza. No, Roberta's pizza also delicious, also can be epic.
+
+[48:23] Anyway, that is this week's Cooking Issues. Come back next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[48:52] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. And I guess can't get it straight. Vicious Vicious Fotco. Oh, you daddy rat.
+
+[49:20] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. The Snacky Tunes compilation has arrived and is available for free on our website, Heritage Radio Network.com. This compilation features live performances from some of the hottest acts around today, including Midnight Magic, Surfer Blood, Overhopper, and more. Again, you can download this compilation for free on our website, Heritage Radio Network.com, and make sure to listen to Snacky Tunes every Monday at 2 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network.
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+[0:10] Hello and welcome to another late session of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, you're a host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, fresh back from her trip to California to visit her parents for her birthday, almost a month prior to her birthday. How was that trip, Nastasha? Good. Yeah, good?
+
+[0:26] Yeah. So uh please call in all of your cooking-related questions or non if you have non-cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So uh last week we had a question uh from actually a telephone question from I forget who's who what their name was, but they had a question about salt rising bread. And uh salt rising bread is a unique kind of bread uh that dates at least back in in this country anyway, uh at least to the 1840s, 1850s, and it's basically died out almost everywhere, except for in certain places like Western New York.
+
+[1:02] So uh I said, which was truthful, I don't know anything about it, right? So I made some, which is the reason why I'm late, by the way. That's why I'm late today. Now, uh in fact, I didn't get to make it 100% like it was supposed to. Um I didn't get a chance to go all the way through the proofing.
+
+[1:17] I kept waiting for it to finish its proofing, and the proofing time of this kind of bread is very variable, so anyways, I had to throw it in the oven too early. Also, I didn't add any crush treatment like an egg wash or anything to it, so the top is rather sallow. And I pulled it out of the oven and literally put it into a metal box and ran to the studio. So that's why I'm late. So Nastasha and I are gonna try it.
+
+[1:36] It's still hot, but it's uh cool enough to touch. Ow. And I brought some butter. Yeah, well, it looks okay, right? Right, Nastasha?
+
+[1:47] Yeah. Looks alright. Put some butter on some of this and break off a piece and let's try it. Then we'll after you try it, we'll talk about it, okay? Meanwhile, uh this is the first week that I'm doing the radio show as a 40-year-old.
+
+[2:02] Right. Happy birthday. Yeah, right. Uh so uh auspicious beginning to my fifth decade on this planet. On the way biking home from work on my birthday, I got doored by a uh by an SUV and flipped over into the street and all mangled and bruised.
+
+[2:18] It's a good way to start, right? Yes. It's a good start to your fifth decade. I think so. More of the same, right?
+
+[2:23] Like, why should why should life change just because you get older? Anyhow, uh and uh another thing, this is the first show where Nastasha actually currently is no longer an employee of the French Culinary Institute. Thank God. Uh-huh. And I am uh I am now uh an independent contractor.
+
+[2:41] So I'm officially in business for myself now, as well as still a director of culinary technology. So it's uh it's a good day, right? Yes. By the way who's cooking issues being brought to us by today, Jack? Hearst Ranch.
+
+[2:54] Hearst Ranch. I don't have the words to read about Hearst Ranch, but Hearst Ranch is uh, I believe one of the oldest uh privately owned uh kind of uh meat farms in the in the country, right? And they have a a a huge range uh of uh of delicious uh grass-fed uh cow that I've eaten. And uh this stuff's really good, right? And they've been a long time sponsor and friend of the show.
+
+[3:17] And uh their um their website is www.hurstranch.com. My correct, Jack? Yes. Yes, okay. So now we're tasting our salt risen bread.
+
+[3:25] What do you think, Nastasha? Good. It needs more salt. Well, interesting. We'll get into that.
+
+[3:31] Um we'll get into that. Excuse me, I'm eating. So one of the peculiar things about salt resin bread is it has, if you smell it, a cheesy aroma. A very, very particular cheesy aroma. This particular one's under risen.
+
+[3:48] Oh, I think we we might have a collar, in which case I will describe the the bread in a moment. Jack, do we have a collar? Yep, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Um my name's Norm from Seattle, Washington.
+
+[4:02] And um I have got myself a brawn thermal mixer that I was able to get working again. Wow. And um I was uh gonna try my first uh chance at 2 eat. Be very careful, of course. Right.
+
+[4:17] And um I've got myself a brisket here, actually. It's a corned beef that I was gonna try. And I was just um hoping you might give me a couple pointers to uh get me out of my way. Sure. Now for uh for those of you out there, uh brawn thermal mixer is not this not nearly the same thing as a thermal mix, as the Europeans know it.
+
+[4:38] A thermal mix is a European piece of equipment that's a blenderslash heater, slash mixers, slash scale. They're not really that popular in this country because they're very expensive here in the US, but they're extremely popular in Europe, um, where they don't have vita preps, which are extremely popular here. Anyway, um the Braun Thermomix, or more properly, the B bron thermal mix is an old style uh it's an old company that made B Brawn, made circulators back in the day, and they haven't been made for a long time. I'm assuming yours is the is the classic B bron green, right? Yep, it's uh 1419 B bron green, yeah.
+
+[5:12] Yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, they're like a cool green color. Uh I had a couple of those that uh actually were harvested from uh from the nate naval labs at uh Pearl Harbor, which was kind of interesting. Uh mine yeah, mine were built in the I believe early, early eighties, and they they lasted a good long time. Do you is yours have a digital readout or the click the the one where you click it in uh with uh with a thumb dial?
+
+[5:35] Uh it's got yeah, it's got the knob dial. Yeah. So yeah, that's what my one of my questions was. It didn't look like I was able to get a a really good uh tenth of a degree uh control. It's maybe maybe point five degrees plus or minus, you know, kind of thing.
+
+[5:50] Yeah. Good news is that's good enough. It's probably I mean uh uh these things uh as they age, they might have some drift in um you know uh in their calibration, not for probably from the instrument itself, but maybe from the electronics, because I don't know how they're calibrated. So I would take it before you do anything and do an ice water uh bath, uh, you know, and just make sure that it registers at zero. Um in general, what goes bad on those uh circulators, the motor will eventually wear bad.
+
+[6:15] Now, if you had one that was used for uh not very much and then was mothballed relatively early in its lifetime, it could still have many good years of life ahead of it. But to the bushings are loud. Yeah, duh. Well, so I had one that I kept alive. Don't tell anyone this, of course.
+
+[6:30] I'm telling everyone this. Uh I had one that I kept alive for a long time with uh little squirts of uh of uh I mean I didn't have any food grade lubricant on me, so I used WD40 just to kill the bearing squeal. But that that is how those things typically when they die, that's how they die. They die through loss of a bearing because the bearings that were used back in those days weren't sealed the same way that they that the new ones are. So the new ones very rarely have bearing faults.
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+[6:54] Um, you know, or at least I've used them for many years without having uh bearing faults unless you do something really nasty to them. Okay. So that's how much did you pay for it, if you mind my asking? Oh, I I got it out of the garbage. Ah, pfft.
+
+[7:06] Awesome. Alright. So, so like anything you get's gravy out of it, in other words. Yeah. Beautiful.
+
+[7:10] Okay. Uh was it really encrusted with oil? One of mine had been uh running oil for a long time and was a real pain to clean out. No, no. Actually, it cleaned up really well.
+
+[7:14] Um little bit of water scaling is pretty much all I had. Um so it um this was, you know, um from a laboratory. So um I'm thinking it was didn't have yeah, I didn't see any oil on it at all. Nice. Okay.
+
+[7:30] Yeah, but no, some of our some of our labs ones I got were running oil baths, and that's why they had the oil on them. So it looks like you're in good shape. And as long as the bearings are they squealing, or are they just you can hear the motor turn? Um it's um it's kind of uh a little bit of a grindy squeal. Uh not not squeal, but more kind of a kind of a grind.
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+[7:50] Um, why don't I just do this? Um yeah. You hear that? Yeah, and then it smooths out after a minute. Yeah.
+
+[8:03] So what's gonna happen eventually is your bearing is gonna fail there. I would try to grease it a little bit, which is gonna make it last for a while. But I even I've even had one once run in restaurants for a little while like that, but that's gonna be the mode of failure of that guy. Uh but you know, he's you know, it's probably lived a long and honorable life, that guy. Okay, so back to your other question of the brisket.
+
+[8:22] The brisket's already been cured, right? Yeah. Okay, now how you do this depends a lot on what you want the texture of it to be. Do you want it to be more like a traditional brisket texture, or do you want to achieve kind of one of these real low low temperature textures that people are uh are doing? So typically what I'll tell you what I do.
+
+[8:40] I don't cook a lot of brisket, but I'm gonna equate it to a short rib for you. How about that? Okay. So in a in a short rib, right, you're gonna wanna it you can I I don't do any temperatures below about fifty-seven because I find that nobody wants this stuff really rare, bloody rare, right? So no one wants it in like the fifty five uh I'm in Celsius, by the way.
+
+[8:58] 55 uh Celsius range. You can cook the stuff down there, but here are two problems you might have. You're gonna if you're gonna cook at a very, very low temp, I would suggest uh initially uh doing a quick dunk into uh simmering water, like you know, maybe like 15 to 30 seconds or something like that. And that is to um that's to kill the bacteria on the outside. Now, if you're only doing one, that's not a big deal.
+
+[9:21] But if you're doing more than one and you don't do that, and the bags are touching each other, the uh lactic acid bacteria that are alive on the inside of the bag can get a chance to grow before the temperature gets high enough to kill them. And I especially see this in people that cook long-term things below about 57 degrees Celsius. So uh like if you're gonna go below 57, I would do like a quick uh like a quick dip in simmering water, or else um, you know, pre-searing helps, but you know, the stuff's still in the uh in the you know in the sauce, right? So um don't overcrowd it and and and I typically go above fifty-seven anyway. So fifty-seven is about the lowest that I'll do uh like a short rib.
+
+[10:02] And a brisket might be around the same thing. For 57 degrees, you're gonna wanna shoot anywhere between uh 48 and probably 60 hours in that range. So you're you're gonna have to get a feel for it. You can feel it in the bag as it goes. So at 48 hours, it will st at that temperature.
+
+[10:21] It will still have quite a bit of toothy bite to it. By the time you get to the upper range of that, and definitely by the time you get to 72 hours, it's gonna in my taste be kind of mushy. It will have lost its texture, which I don't find pleasant. Some people like it, right? I don't find it pleasant.
+
+[10:36] Um in general, I find people like the slightly beefier flavor you get out of uh something that's like 60 degrees. So it's 60 degrees Celsius, which is a hundred and forty, I would cook it for about two days. And then uh progressively as you go higher, you you can cook it less and less. I wouldn't cook it much above sixty-three or sixty-four because anything above that, I would just assume cook it traditionally. Does that make sense?
+
+[10:58] Hello? Yeah. Yeah, I'm here. Yeah. All right.
+
+[11:01] So I would try I would try those, uh I would try those ranges and see how they work. I think uh about sixty degrees for for 48 hours, and um, yeah, that sounds good now. Um you're if I do uh that uh blanching, the the dip, um gonna re uh remove anything. Do you uh uh think I should make up any kind of sauce, like with uh the uh spice packet that's uh comes with it uh to put around it in the bag or just just dip it, throw it in the bag and it's a good thing. Yeah, uh you can put this I would put the spices on it.
+
+[11:32] Uh maybe cut it back a little bit if you're gonna vacuum it down uh a little bit back from normal. Make sure that you don't put a lot of liquid in the bag or it's gonna taste really poached, right? Reduce any liquid that goes in and reduce it because uh if you're gonna cook traditionally, you're gonna be evaporating liquid off, and in the bag you won't. Yeah. Wonderful.
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+[11:49] All right, well, give it a shot give it a shot. Tell me how it happens. Good luck with your thermal mix. Okay, thanks. Alrighty.
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+[11:54] Oh, we're going to our first commercial break. This has been cooking issues. Call back. Oh, still are cooking issues going to our first break. What?
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+[12:00] Oh, there's a collar, all right. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Howdy. This is uh Mike.
+
+[12:06] Um uh I'm a brewer in a commercial brewery, and uh been listening to your podcast a lot and was in uh intrigued by the uh the raw food discussions you're having. And as a thought experiment here at the brewery, we were just kind of thinking, would it be possible to brew a raw beer? I know the the main problem I was thinking, you know, the alpha amylase and beta amylase to convert the mash is normally done pretty high, you know, 150, 160. Right. But then I was thinking, you know, with the like chicha and these uh early primitive beers where people would just chew on, you know, the starch, the corn or whatever, that the alpha amylase and the saliva would break it down.
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+[12:48] So I was thinking you might be able to get conversion of a mash at 118. What do you think? Uh it's yeah, I I you know the the profiles might be different, right? I mean I don't think you'd get what I mean here are the problems as I see it. And and uh you know I'm love to hear what you have to say about it.
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+[13:02] First of all, uh I think the both of us find it hilarious I find it hilarious. I'm sure you do too that um you're not that you would typically use temperatures that are higher than than raw food would allow in order to activate an enzyme and the whole purpose of raw food is to keep enzymes alive. So I find that amusing but yeah. Um and by the way uh for those of you listening we're not welching we just had to post but we're still doing the raw food uh the raw food thing that's going to come up very soon. Okay.
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+[13:27] Um I would assume that yes those enzymes are gonna are gonna work. It's just you know you're gonna be you're gonna be thrown off your your times and the uh you know and and obviously you might not get the you know you know you're shooting for uh the mash temperatures that are going to get the right balance of the alpha and the beta amylases working for you so you can get the right um the the right breakdown products that you want um aside from me mashing I'm sure you could get to work right uh at a hundred and a hundred and twelve or whatever it is that they want you to eventually I don't know that you're gonna get complete conversion but the real problem is is you're not gonna be able to boil the the uh the boil it afterwards. Well I was thinking you could sterile filter the work. Right. And then add maybe a CO2 hop extract.
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+[14:12] Do you know if uh when they do those, do you know if they uh get above one eighteen for those? I assume it's all cold side, right, with the liquid CO2? Yeah, they they are right. I mean that's from from my experien from my knowledge of the of the system it's all done um it's all done cold. And did they sell that?
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+[14:28] They sell the um they sell the the Uh-huh yeah huh. Now the only thing I was worried about is you know the lacto, lactobacillus is really gonna be rocking at one one fifteen, one eighteen. You know, is there any way to that you would inhibit that to let the uh you know the alpha and beta do what they can at that temperature because otherwise it's just gonna be sour with it you know long before I think the starch is converted. Right. Uh I'm I'm thinking now as as we're as we're talking, I'm thinking about it and um I'm trying to think of something that's not going to also later inhibit yeast or that you can remove that is going to um prevent lactic acid uh uh from appearing in there.
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+[15:14] Hmm have you thought of anything or no? No really you know that chemical side of things we're not really involved with at all. Um so I don't know it's more of a thought experiment of you know could we do it if we wanted to obviously we wouldn't you know be able to make a great beer but I just thought it would be not that I even want to encourage that kind of uh behavior from these raw foodies because like you say it's just ridiculous. You know all the enzymes that we use in brewing don't even start till above one eighteen except for maybe you know some beta glucanase or something. Right.
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+[15:46] I mean, but it's a really interesting uh problem, and you could actually, I mean, you know, w whether or not you personally are interested, you could open up a seg uh uh a a separate market segment off if it's possible because you know you go to these places and they have basically wines. Uh they don't have any liquors because they haven't picked up on rotary evaporation yet, so none of them have done that that I know of. You know what I mean? So I'll definitely be drinking homemade liquor off done off of uh raw approved wines when I'm when I'm doing the raw food diet. But beer is an interesting an interesting problem.
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+[16:15] I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head that you're gonna have the the main problems are gonna be during the the the mashing. Um I don't have filters that I would trust to to filter it out afterwards that weren't gonna clog like a lunatic, but if you have them, you could definitely definitely do it. Um have you ever just had like uh you you ever just like uh also your the other problem is your barley is gonna be kiln to too high a temperature. Uh that's yeah, possibly, yeah. I think they do kill uh kiln at about one thirty.
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+[16:44] So I'm gonna have to look into that. Yeah, because I was thinking about doing doing something uh for you know, but they s they sprout all the stuff, but then they don't I mean it would be possible maybe to do a mash that wasn't kilned if you used it uh uh as soon as the thing uh you know reached the proper stage of malting, would you malted your own and didn't kiln it to dry it off. Right. I mean, wouldn't it be possible to then directly go to the mash stage? Uh yeah, yeah, it's it's not required.
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+[17:11] Though the drying uh part of of uh malting is just as, you know, so it's storable. Right. And I'm I've never done my own malting, but I hear that that's as much of an art or more so as anything else. Yeah, I malted some corn to do some uh heirloom variety corn uh moonshine and sprouted the corn and mashed that. Off the record, you mean you did that?
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+[17:31] Yeah. Uh yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. How was it? Uh delicious.
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+[17:36] I mean the the the the amount we got out of it was ridiculously small, you know, out of like fifteen pounds of corn, we got a pint of uh finished product. But it was so sweet and the corn flavor just came through so much better than you know, modern moonshine is just corn sugar for the most part. Right. And uh you know, I've never had the the actual fermented cheeses like ch chichidahura and all these things, but um, you know, in their local environment I've only had the you know the um the chicha that you know the non-alcoholic cheaches that they have up here. But you know, assuming that those are boil-free, you also might look at maybe it's easier to get uh the breakdown of the mash in corn rather than in a barley.
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+[18:14] Um I don't know. Or I I also don't know if the saliva amylase uh enzymes are qualitatively different from the ones that we use uh from uh barley malt. Um but these are all things uh that I find interesting. So w why don't you why don't you investigate it and I'll look into a little bit and then maybe we'll talk about it again on a future show. Sound good?
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+[18:34] Sounds good, Dave. Hey, uh one more thing uh on a food or on a food note. Um I've been really into uh cooking authentic Thai food ever since I ate at this restaurant Pac Park up in uh Portland. Right. And uh I've got all Dave Thompson's books and uh I I've I can't a lot of them call for coriander root.
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+[18:51] And I was wondering if you have a source or have you ever seen any coriander roots available anywhere? I mean, if you can get if you can buy so a bunch of cilantro with the roots still attached, I think. Yeah, I mean occasionally I'll get that, but uh I mean you have then the good Thai groceries in that in in your area don't don't have it, or do you not have like a hardcore Thai grocery? Uh we don't have any, but even when I go down to Atlanta and then go to the big ones, I've just never seen it anywhere. So I grow my own, but uh, you know.
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+[19:19] Right. Pain in the butt. Yeah. Yeah. Just for the roots.
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+[19:22] I have occasionally gotten uh bunch uh cilantro with the root attached, but I I'll uh Nastasha make a note to look into it, and I'll def I'll look into that when I'm looking to the raw food. We'll try to hit two birds with one stone. Alright, Dave, thanks for the help. Uh thank you. See ya.
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+[19:36] Alright, and now we are officially going to our first commercial break. Calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 7184972128 Cooking Issues, Parliament. I will move out to sleep. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network.
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+[20:47] Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at twelve PM as she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the past by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where, and how. From as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables and deli counters of today. The show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures. Again, that's Thursday at 12 p.m.
+
+[21:20] on Heritage Radio Network. But most of all, the funk. Linda Palacio, also the father, uh mother of uh chef Zach Zach Palacio, and attended our fundraiser. Yeah. Right.
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+[21:33] So cheers to cheers to the Palaccio crew. All right. So go to back to our salt-risen bread. Salt rising, salt-risen or salt-rising bread actually doesn't contain uh a lot of salt, although sometimes it can. Uh, this one's under salted because I didn't really want to taste it during the fermentation process, and I'll tell you why.
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+[21:50] Uh, salt-risen bread does not use yeast, right? Typical breads that we use that we make uh are are leavened with uh yeast, different varieties of yeast. Sourdough breads are are leavened with a basically a symbiotic uh culture that's both lactic acid bacteria and yeast, right? And so it's like that and the specific culture depends on the specific yeast and the specific um you know strain of yeast and the specific uh bacterial culture that you have in it, and and and that's what gives the characteristic uh flavors of sourdough bread. Right?
+
+[22:22] They're sour and because the lactic acid bacteria are basically I think eating the uh byproducts of the yeast and producing the acid acidity provides a characteristic twang and also makes the dough slacker, which is why sourdough doesn't have the same taste or feeling as as regular, because the gluten is somewhat uh broken down by the acidity. Okay. Now, salt rising bread, on the other hand, is uh leavened purely by bacterial action, and the bacteria involved is uh Clostridium perfringens, which is actually a pathogen, a food pathogen, like one of the the second uh best known uh uh or second probably most prevalent or one of the most prevalent uh food poisoning bacteria that there are. Now, I made Nastasha eat the bread before I said this because I knew that she would not try it afterwards. Now, there's a what's interesting is is it's been it's been very, very thoroughly studied, and there's a study on it called the microbiology of salt rising bread uh for done by the uh West Virginia University School of Medicine uh fairly recently, and uh basically what they did was they they they did a study of the different uh starters.
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+[23:26] Now, the way you do a starter, Clostridium porfringens is a uh is is a is an anaerobic it basically can't grow in oxygen. So, what you do is you make a liquid mix with something like cornmeal or something for it to feed on, right? And you can add either salt or uh or sometimes baking soda or uh a Camden tablet, which is basically a yeast inhibitor because you want to stop yeasts from growing in there. You only want this bacteria to grow in it. And you let it sit in a warm place.
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+[23:52] I used my Excalibur uh dehydrator, which you can also use as a as a bread proofer to keep it at about a hundred degrees Fahrenheit for hours, like usually overnight, until it gets uh foamy and starts taking on a cheese-like aroma that's characteristic of salt-ridden bread, salt risen bread. Uh, some of that characteristic aroma comes from one of the byproducts of clostridium perfringens, which is butyric acid, which is the smell of rancid butter, or which you can smell now that you have it, Nastasha, you'll see what I mean, or uh it's a characteristic of parmesan cheese, or in very high concentrations, vomit. Okay, so it has a very specific aroma that uh that that devotees of this uh bread really, really, really enjoy. They then add uh usually more water and flour to create a spongy starter, which you then let rise again for many hours, then make the dough, and then let it rise up uh yet again, and you bake it. The texture, it's a lot whiter than regular bread because of the uh for some reason I don't really know why.
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+[24:44] They said it's because of the acids involved, but I doubt that. I don't know what it is. But it's a very white crumb, it has a different texture, it uh finer bubbles. The gases produced are not uh carbon dioxide as they are in normal bread. It's a combination of hydrogen and I believe also hydrogen sulfide, although I'm not sure, uh uh gases in the in the bread.
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+[25:05] So it's basically a fundamentally different bread making mechanism than you would use normally. Now, when you bake them, right, uh and they do have this like really like once you smell it once, you like you're never gonna like k you mistake the smell for for it and you know, it again, you know what it smells like when it happens. Uh a lot of people have uh failures of getting their thing to rise, but it's very easy for me because I use the X calibration. What? Well, come on, Nastasha, always taking into the gutter.
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+[25:28] Always taking it to the gutter. Anyway, some people have a problem getting these things to rise in a in a non-sexual way, you gross. Uh and um and uh I think it's because they don't have adequate temperature control. So uh one of the reasons it's called salt risen bread, some people speculate, is because you add salt to inhibit yeast uh formation. The other thing is that uh apparently the the people who used to make it, they would uh they would take salt and heat it up and use that as as a heat as a warm bed, a warm bed of salt to keep it in to keep the temperature of the starter in the right place while it was heating, because it and that by the way, the crunching here in the back isn't me crumpling paper, it's Nastasha eating the bread.
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+[26:03] So thank goodness she's overcome the uh the like the fear of uh of uh perfyngence poisoning. Of course I can hear it. Anyway, uh perfynce poisoning and she's eating it. Uh there's never uh there's never been a reported case of foodborne illness as a result of eating the bread, and uh the microbi the the test they've ran on the bread after it was cooked is that it is has it basically no active uh perfinggens in it. Now, uh Clostrium perfringes is interesting because it's a spore-forming bacteria.
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+[26:29] Uh so you don't really kill it. You just kill all the vegetative cells, you don't kill the spores. Ugh. But it's ubiquitous, Nastasha. Obviously, I was able to have some.
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+[26:39] You don't like the word spore? What's wrong with the word spore? Spores don't move, they're spores. No, I just don't like it. She's making little like spider movements with her hands.
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+[26:48] There it's a spore. Ugh. You like mushrooms, right? You know what they make? Spores.
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+[26:55] Spore, spore, spore. Anyway, uh, so uh, so it's a very interesting topic. One um I'm you know, I doubt that I'll actually um blog about it. There's a very good website, or you know, or at least a uh one that's well known, Susan R. Brown Salt Rising Bread Project, uh that you can uh look up if you want to look up more on salt rising bread.
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+[27:13] Uh again, the only reason I I don't think that I'll be writing about it is because I have so many things I need to write about already and I haven't done it. But besides that, um it's already been handled pretty well, I think, by these other guys. I don't really have anything to add to it. You know what I mean? Like I we didn't do anything fancy or or different, like I didn't make like a salt-rising chicken.
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+[27:31] You know what I mean? Like if I could come up with like a salt-rising chicken, then you know we can do something uh very different. But here we are eating the salt-rising bread, and I definitely will experiment with it more myself because it's interesting and I like I like funky things. And actually, I like the taste. If I could get it to rise a little more, uh, if I proved it longer, I'm I'm gonna add like a crust treatment to it too.
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+[27:50] What do you think, Nastasha? Uh, I like the taste. Yeah, I'm gonna try to maybe also do it with alternative grains. It's always usually done with wheat flour. I'm gonna try maybe doing it with uh maybe well, Nastasha's not a big rye person, but I'm gonna maybe add a little bit of rye.
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+[28:02] Uh play around with it. We'll see. Anyway, okay. Now, on to the email. By the way, there still is time to call in your questions.
+
+[28:07] I've wadded up the napkin, so I don't have that. 718-497-2128. Oh, very good. Say it again. 7184972128.
+
+[28:15] Yes. Anyway, um, that's how we operate in the radio here, by the way. We have crumpled up napkins with it with because for some reason for some reason I can't ever commit the telephone number uh of the radio station to memory, no matter how many times I've said it. It's like literally goes it goes off the paper into my eyes, through my mouth, and it's gone. Never never has any any residence time in my brain.
+
+[28:35] All right. Hey guys, look forward to your show each week. Thank you. This is from Lee. I've got some pork shanks.
+
+[28:40] I'm gonna cook low temp, looking for some guidance on time and temperature. I've done lamb shanks at 70 degrees Celsius for 36 hours, then bone in pork shoulder at 61.5 degrees C for 48 hours. Both came out great, but the great variance leaves me lost uh for the pork shanks. Okay. The lamb shanks at 70 C for 36 hours, that's a long well, let me see.
+
+[29:00] 70 for 36 and 61 for 48. Those are what's funny is those are about equivalent, Lee. So in other words, uh you got to choose the temperature and the time. Um if I were gonna do pork shanks, I would do it closer to the second one 61 for 48, or maybe 63 for about 56, 57. Give that a shot.
+
+[29:20] The two numbers you have are actually fairly equivalent, even though they seem disparate because you have to cook for a lot shorter time as the temperature goes up. Anyway, I hope that hope that helps. And give us a call and tell us how how your pork shank turned up. But hey, we have a caller and caller, you were on the air. Hey now, Dave, how are you doing?
+
+[29:34] All right, what's up? Uh I'm I was wondering uh about uh beer cooler Sous V. Um I'm currently in the process of building my own immersion circulator, and uh it's just taking a little longer than I expected. Um as far as uh safety goes, is there anything I should really worry about when cooking like whole fish inside of a beer cooler? No.
+
+[29:59] Nope. Nope. No. Perfect. But yeah, are you uh are you a uh beer brewer?
+
+[30:04] No. Okay. But so the one thing you should, here's what here's what you need to do. You need to the outside of your product is gonna be cooked a little more than the uh in the inside of your product. It's the nature of the beast when you're doing this kind of work, okay?
+
+[30:19] The main thing you're gonna have to do is, I mean, are you gonna get the the standard home brew special, the got five-gallon uh cooler? Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you that don't know, like the standard like thing to to start your homebrew mashing in is is, and I don't know why, but the company got is the one that everyone gets. Geo, I think TT, five gallon cooler.
+
+[30:38] And what you do is is you drill a small hole to fit your whatever it is, uh, whatever thermometer you have, get a long stem thermometer, uh, and drill a hole in the top of the uh of the um cooler to put the thermometer in, pour in water that's close to the temperature you want to cook to. I'll make up a number 57 Celsius, right? And I'm making it up. Pour it in, throw in the thermometer, uh, and then wait. And um take readings every um every little bit, right?
+
+[31:08] And figure out uh figure out exactly uh how fast the temperature drops. You should be able over the course of a couple of hours to keep it within about five to ten degrees, depending on how good the cooler is, right? So now you know your temperature drop. So what you do is is you say, okay, uh now you the the second thing you need to calculate is the uh weight of the water that you're gonna add and the weight of the meat that you're gonna add, right? Then you calculate the temperature of the meat that you're gonna add, and the uh and then you have to calculate what you want the temperature of the water to be, right?
+
+[31:43] So let's say you have a 10 degree drop, or let's say you know you're gonna cook it for for an hour and a half, and you know you're gonna get a 10 degree drop over that hour and a half, right? So let's say you're gonna cook at 135, which is about 57, 135, is you want what you want your finished temperature to be. So you start you you want to do your start calculation with the water starting out at 14 uh five degrees, right? Does this make sense so far? Yeah, perfect sense.
+
+[32:08] Okay. So now you you you know you want a start temperature of 145 degrees. So what you do is is you say, okay, uh, I have let's say uh 30 pounds of water at and you want more water than meat, right? You I have 30 pounds of water at um, you know, at at what what temperature do I have to have that 30 pounds of water to be such that when I add five pounds of meat at you know 40 degrees Celsius, that when you add those things together, the water and the thing average out to being a hundred and um a hundred and fifty um a hundred and fifty, yeah, no, sorry, a hundred and forty-five. Sorry, crap, hundred and six.
+
+[32:46] It's very hard to do this. You see what I'm saying, right? Do you understand what I'm saying? Absolutely. So, what you want to do is you want to, and here in the easy way for everyone that I've confused with this, is uh it's really hard to do this without a piece of paper in my hands, is look up calculations that brewers use to do strike temperature, right?
+
+[33:01] And so it's called strike temperature, and that's the the the water that they use when they add uh barley to it, and they want the mash to come out at exactly the right temperature, they do the exact same procedure. So you can use the exact same equation. So I would just go down to any brewing site and uh Brutalheads.com has the strike water temperature calculator. Perfect. So just use that and you should come out all right.
+
+[33:23] Just make sure that you know what your temperature drop over the course of the intended cooking time is because it's typically gonna be longer than it would be for a brewer on mash out. On mashing, rather. Awesome. Um I have one other question for you, Dave. Just a follow-up from previous show.
+
+[33:36] Have you have you uh played with an aeropress at all? Played with what no, I haven't. I still haven't gotten one. We have an offer to have uh someone give us theirs. I would I as soon as I get one, which I it's just laziness and stupidity, is the only reason I don't have it.
+
+[33:50] But um no, uh why do you really like it? Um I've had mixed results. It I find it tends to make a very sort of uh flat cup. Um the biggest problem being that I think you're using paper filters with it, and they're not the greatest paper filters. I think uh you'd have a lot like I've uh a place uh has a clover, like an independent coffee shop has a clover machine.
+
+[34:14] I brought it in and compared, and they make sort of a similar cup because it's a similar technique. Right. But I think a metal filter would make a huge difference in allowing a little more of the oils and uh flavor to get through. So that that's just my observation. I've only had it for about a month though.
+
+[34:31] Right. Well, I assume you're on the West Coast if you went to a place with a clover. Um, I'm in uh Halifax actually. Oh, really? Oh well, clover clover's a little bit different because clover doesn't use any pressure, and theoretically there's some pressure in the aeropress, uh which is gonna probably change the coffee quality a little bit.
+
+[34:47] Um because the the clover is basically just using the piston to extract out of the grounds, it's not using it uh uh uh under any really elevated pressure. Um But yeah, and I need to I'll I need to I need to play with it. Coffee geek is obviously is a good place to go because people have done uh aeropress work, uh a lot of aeropress work. But um anyway, but please get back to us with the results of your of your got cooler uh cooking and tell us what happens. I will, Dave.
+
+[35:14] Thank you so much, man. All right, thank you. All right. All right, you do. And I we have one last question, I hope to get to.
+
+[35:20] I have to go fast because Nastasha's giving me that evil look. Um, okay. And unfortunately, this question's a little long. They say, sorry. If I add liquid to a Ziploc bag and then cook a chicken breast sous vide, isn't the flavor going to be leached out into this liquid?
+
+[35:32] I read in your low temperature primer that the water hot dogs are cooked in uh reaches equilibrium with the hot dogs, and so the flavor's not altered, and that this water is is reused all the time uh and so it's okay for the hot dogs. It doesn't change the flavor. But this uh it seems impractical at home, as I only cook chicken breasts every few weeks or something. Is there a way to safely store the stock uh that you use uh for cooking chicken breasts this way and reuse it? Straining and freezing the stock uh seem uh stock seems an obvious approach, but is that the best way?
+
+[35:57] Does the repeated freezing and thawing diminish the quality of the stock, or should you always add pre-made stock to it? All right. Um okay, here's my feeling on this. Uh you can freeze stock no problem and rethought. It doesn't hurt the quality of it.
+
+[36:11] The main problem with quality is uh with with uh with freezing things, as long as you actually contain them tight and you don't have uh oxygen touching them and and there's not a lot of fat in them so that they can go have rancidity problems. The main problem is actually just cells are being uh dehydrated and don't rehigh hydrate properly in freeze thaw cycles or gels break and things like that. You don't care if the gelatin breaks because you're gonna heat it again to the point where the gelatin's gonna melt again anyway. And there's no cells to lose quality. So soup can be and stocks can be repeatedly uh frozen and thawed as long as you're not like damaging them with uh oxygen content or if there's a lot of fat, or if you're having a problem like that.
+
+[36:48] Um so I wouldn't definitely I would definitely would not worry about reusing straining and reusing the stock again and again and again. You can also poach in a very, very small amount of liquid. Like if you're uh when I do chicken, I basically I will, and this speaks to the later part of the question, which I don't have time to to read. But uh when I do chicken now, typically what I'll do is I'll I'll salt them and actually add a little sugar because I'm a cheater uh instead of brining, and then I'll put it into my into my Ziplocks and I'll add a little bit of milk, but just enough to get a good seal on it. So it's not really sucking that much flavor uh out of the chicken.
+
+[37:21] Uh but uh that stuff actually is good as a soup base because it's got chicken flavor and you know it's salty already. You don't can't use it straight as is because it's usually too salty. But I I do that and then I use it for a different preparation, right? So you can do that, but that does dilute the chicken flavor somewhat, but not a lot. But you could definitely just reuse it.
+
+[37:40] Um the other question you had is adding liquid to a steak cook sous vide seems weird to me, especially if pre-seared. Uh, can I apply the principles you teach me on cooking the chicken breast this way to cooking steak or other meats? I would not add water to a steak in the bag or a liquid. I've done tests with stock, and it's okay. And obviously, we do uh super reduction of uh meat juices for when we're doing uh short ribs and stuff like that, but they're very, very, very reduced because they need to be not that much thicker than a braising sauce uh not that much thinner than a braising sauce, even after the meat exudes all its juices as it's cooking.
+
+[38:12] So I typically actually don't like to use liquids in the bag with a steak, uh liquid water based liquids. I use butter, right? So what I'll do when I'm cooking a steak in a Ziploc bag, and this is what I recommend to you, is I use butter. Uh and I and if you like garlic, a good thing to do is to chop up garlic and throw it in the bag with the melted m molten butter, uh, seal it, cook it that way in the bag, and then that butter is then immediately useful for garlic bread, which guess what? Goes deliciously with steak.
+
+[38:39] I mean, really deliciously. In fact, what I do is I pour out the butter uh and the juices that came out of the steak, strain out the garlic, because then you don't want that to burn, right? And the garlic flavor is already in the butter. Then I whisk the I whisk the meat uh juices and the butter together a lot, and then pour it directly on the bread, and then fire that bread while I'm searing the steak, and both things come out at the same time, and everybody is happy, even my hyper finicky kids. Um, I'm being told that we are out of time.
+
+[39:05] Is that correct, Jack? What? That was a yes. That was a yes. All right.
+
+[39:10] Well, listen, this has been a very fun episode of Cooking Issues, and come back next week and give us all your questions. Whoa! They say the bigger the headache, the bigger the peel, baby. Call me the big peel. Dr.
+
+[39:24] Funkenstein, the disco thing with the monster sound. The cool gooe with the bone transplant. Hip bone connected to my thigh bone. My thigh bone connected to my leg bone, my leg bone connected to my ankle bone. I get so hung up on bones.
+
+[39:47] Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with the Do Something Real Film Festival. A collection of six provocative character-driven films focused on food, environmental issues, and everyday people with a greater vision. Come see one of the six features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m. Learn more about the films and special events at www.do something R E E L dot com. That's www.do something r-e-e-l.com.
+
+[40:18] Sponsored by Whole Foods Market. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The Fairway label honey is superb.
+
+[40:33] Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey at an amazing value with the Fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels. It's a no brainer.
+
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+[41:54] That's R A K U T E N.
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. Cooking issues will be live shortly. Dave's held up and he'll be here as soon as he can. And it's late. You got my head all twisted.
+
+[0:16] And I guess can't get it straight. You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Sam Edwards. I'm third generation Cure Master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia.
+
+[0:32] We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause and what they're doing. They're supporting family-raised uh livestock, small family farms, uh certified humane, pasture-raised, antibiotic-free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into uh Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon, sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or Virginia Traditions.com. Ah, Buddhap.
+
+[1:16] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, coming to you live from the studio behind Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn on this rainy, rainy day. I just biked here in the rain, so I'm thoroughly soaked, negating any morning shower that I took. How are you doing, Nastasha? I'm doing okay, Dave.
+
+[1:32] Yeah? Mm-hmm. So last week, a big uh a big week for us. We moved all of our stuff, junk, crap, from the French Culinary Institute to the new company headquarters in Brooklyn. Can't believe I'm actually a Brooklyn guy now.
+
+[1:48] I still live in Manhattan, though, for all you keeping track of this kind of stuff. But our new offices are in Williamsburg in the uh in the milk bar commissary in the back. They have a little extra storage space. So we've moved up from a trash room at the French culinary, which was our former lab, reverted back to a trash room several weeks ago. We've moved up in the world to back of the warehouse space.
+
+[2:08] Right? So anyway. We haven't set up yet. All of our crap is literally in the pile in the middle of the in the middle of the space. I'm waiting for a couple of weeks to see whether uh see what I can do to build it out so we can actually have a sink and uh start cooking again.
+
+[2:22] But it should be exciting, right, Nastasha? Yes, it should. We haven't thought of a name for the new company yet. Uh we plan on making kitchen equipment, both for professionals and for home people. And we're gonna keep our hand in the cooking biz, right?
+
+[2:34] Mm-hmm. Yeah. So uh any names would be uh appreciated for the company. Any we've had only terrible ideas, right? Yeah.
+
+[2:41] Like it's like not even like many of them like not even able to be mentioned on the air, the ideas, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hor horrible, horrible, horrible, offensive, offensive stuff. Okay, so uh call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:55] That's 718-497-2128. We're gonna be here for the next 40 minutes or so. So please call in with all of your questions, cooking related or not. Mostly they're cooking related. Yeah, mostly unfortunately, right.
+
+[3:06] Okay, uh, by the way, Nastasha, are you keeping the surprise? What do you have for the uh the middle music, the uh break music? Did you mention that? I didn't even think of anything. Well, you have a couple minutes.
+
+[3:14] You can scroll around on your iPod for some for some good business. Nastasha's been messing with the with the music. We had two weeks of Hollow Notes and what do we have? Good morning, gents, uh, writes uh Urike Sterling. Uh I have recently become very interested in high pressure molding without binders, no egg, etc., of certain starches, namely different potatoes, uh tubers, I guess, yucca, melanga, etc.
+
+[3:38] I was wondering if any of you had any experience in this, and if not, where to look within the food manufacturing bids for such a request. Okay, well, I'm gonna make some assumptions. I encourage you to write in with more uh details about exactly what you're trying to do, but I'm assuming if you're gonna high pressure mold starch without uh you know binders such as egg, that you're talking about uh tablet formation, uh, you know, compressing into tablet form. There are other things, obviously, that you can do under under very high pressures, you can mold starches into plastics, but I'm just gonna, for the purposes of this and discussion, assume that you mean tablets. Uh so uh we've actually discussed this a little bit on one of the programs a long time ago, right?
+
+[4:17] Tablet making. It's actually something that uh we haven't done, or I haven't done, but uh am extremely interested in. I need to buy a uh tablet maker. Is it's it's on my list of things to do because we want to make our own uh tablets and mints. In fact, I almost got a consulting gig a while ago where we would have had to make a bunch of pills, but that what happened with that?
+
+[4:36] We just fell through whatever. Anyway. Um, so the deal is right that uh the different types uh uh I encourage you to look at this paper from 1987 by C. E. Boz, B O S, uh entitled Native Starch in Tablet Formations Properties on Compaction.
+
+[4:53] And it's a good first it's even though it's old, it's a good first starting for uh compression of uh of starches, specifically starches and native starches, because a lot of times when they're gonna make uh tablets, they don't use native starches. They use starches either that have been pre gelatinized or they use starches that have been um uh modified in some way, acid modified, or did different modifications to alter the uh properties of the finished tablet to make them harder, to make them break up either easier or or or or harder, things like that. But I will say this the actual type of starch that you use makes a huge difference in how the tablet is formed. So the way the tablet is formed is usually mix up the starch with and it's in the in the business, this is called uh an excipient. It's basically the non-active ingredient.
+
+[5:37] So you would be adding in whatever the active ingredient is, flavor or you know, aspirin, you know, uh whatever it is, a celsi acidic acid, whatever the heck aspirin is, I can never remember. Mix it in, and then you put it into a metal dye that's shaped however you want it, and you compress it. Now the compression is quite severe. Um I don't know exactly, but it's on the order of like 18,000 psi, like on in that order of magnitude, 18,000 psi. So it's easier for you to use much smaller dyes so that you don't need as much physical tons of pressure pushing down to make a make a tablet, right?
+
+[6:11] Now, uh typically also they'll add other things to it like lubricants so that it doesn't heat up and so that it flows well in the dye when it's compressing, right? So you'd think that you're not adding um any binders, but in fact, moisture, the amount of moisture that's in the starch is very important. So it it turns out that you want about 10% moisture, uh total moisture in the starch, which is kind of normal in a relatively humid uh environment out in the world. So even though you're not adding things like water, there are things like water present. Also, aside from the type of starch being very important, the um the way the starch is milled, right?
+
+[6:47] Whether it's in fine granules or in larger pieces makes a big difference on how the uh on how the finished tablet's gonna be. So it's a very complicated subject, one I'm very interested in, uh, but unfortunately don't know a lot about, but hopefully I've given you uh a good place to start, right, Nastasha? Mm-hmm. Yeah? Anyway, okay.
+
+[7:03] So, let's go to our next question. We just got something in interestingly. Uh listeners will know that we are interested in uh the uh irradiation of corn to make different genetic mutations. Uh turns out, uh we you know we'll call it nuclear corn. Turns out we got a uh a write-in from trying to find out who sent us the who sent us the post.
+
+[7:25] Here it is. J.R. Nelson sent us some interesting stuff uh this morning on uh mutation breeding. So that's the technical term the for you know new you know, radiating stuff until she mutates and forms new stuff. Anyway, so the technical term is mutation breeding, which sounds a lot a lot better.
+
+[7:41] But um J.R. writes in and says he came across a news bit today where the uh University of California Riverside, which is the uh people who handle a lot of the citrus for for our country, the germplasm for citrus, they basically I think I think they run the uh the United States' uh our federal citrus program, pretty sure, for germplasm. Anyway, I have to look it up. But UC Davis uh and I guess at New C Riverside just announced they created a new mandarin uh called uh the Kinno L S. Now Kinno is actually a very it's an old uh venerated uh mandarin.
+
+[8:12] Delicious. Nastasha and I had it when we visited uh uh when we visited uh uh Gene Lester's citrus uh ranch out in uh in Watlow. It's great. Uh problem is Kinno has a whole boatload of seeds. So what they did was is they just nuked a whole bunch of I guess budwood of uh kinnow.
+
+[8:30] They just nuked it uh and then you know, propagated it, and they got a kinno that had uh that had a lower sea count. Now they don't necessarily actually have to use irradiation, they just most of the time do. Uh they can use other sorts of chemical things, mugens, teratogens, things like this, to do it. But uh he sent that in and there's a picture of this new uh breed, Kino uh L S for l for low seed or less seeds. Uh so go take a look at another fine example nuclear oranges of better fruit through radiation right you know what the thing is uh I think a lot of people probably are freaked out by this kind of thing and it's the same kind of uh un you know unthinking uh fear of things that um that brought us the term uh NMR right so you're familiar with uh well you're not familiar with MRI feel familiar with MRIs when you go to the hospital you get an MRI Nastasha me yeah yeah MRI yeah magnetic resonance imaging yes you go and they take a picture of your body yeah well actually that's a phenomenon called NMR nuclear magnetic resonance and in fact they changed the name from NMR nuclear magnetic resonance to MRI magnetic resonance imaging because patients were literally afraid to get in a machine with the word nuclear attached to it.
+
+[9:39] It's crazy right and it's the other thing is that a lot of people are against uh irradiated uh foodstuffs for preservation right now there are several reasons to be against irradiated foodstuffs for preservation so basically you can take food fruits whatever expose them to very high levels of uh of gamma radiation right you know x-rays and and such things and kill all the bacteria in them right make them pretty much uh sterile as a preservation technique and you don't have to heat it right which is great and you can do it when it's already packaged with without heat so it's fan you know can be fantastic. Now there are some reasons to be against this uh to be against irradiating food one is it can destroy the texture of the food right then that's valid. Really think Nastasha that's a thought yes uh uh but there are uh are other reasons that are not valid for instance people think that somehow they are going to get uh uh cancer from eating irradiated food or somehow the food itself becomes radioactive. This is not a fair characterization of what happens. But it's another situation where uh you know adding the word radiation or nuclear makes something all of a sudden horrible in people's eyes.
+
+[10:39] So hopefully they don't get that feeling with uh with our nuclear corn and our nuclear uh and our nuclear mandarins, although apparently they're not gonna advertise that fact. Anyway, we have a caller there, Jack? Or are they just ordering a pizza? I think they're just ordering a pizza. Yeah.
+
+[10:56] You got a caller? All right, caller, you are on the air. Are there any studies that have proven that GM foods are bad? I can recognize this voice from through the radio. This is uh Patrick Martins, uh uh the person who's working with us on the Museum of Food and Drink Fundraiser, the founder of this radio network and the founder of Slow Foods USA and Heritage Foods.
+
+[11:15] How are you doing today, Patrick? Good, thanks for having me. All right, so um the question was uh uh are there any references on uh uh GMOs saying that they're actually bad? Well, I just read this quote from Bill Gates that says, I hate that all these sustainable food groups keep saying that our work is bad, you know, through the Gates Foundation, and that keep falsely accusing you know GM foods of being bad. So of course I'm being like, well, there's gotta be a study somewhere, but I haven't ever found one, and I've asked people, and no one can think of a study that proves that it's bad.
+
+[11:49] Yeah, it's because there isn't one. Yeah, I mean, but here's the problem. I think a lot of people, uh, you know, way back in the day in the uh in the 80s, right? You know, if you're familiar with Jeremy Rifkin, right? I mean, he would come out against any of these uh kind of genetic things, and basically, in in his mind, all things trace to some some form of awful Armageddon at the hands of people that are doing genetic um genetic modifications.
+
+[12:13] Now, there are arguments, I don't really I don't really know them well enough to uh to give them to you in any sort of form that doesn't seem derogatory to them, if that you know gives you an idea of where I am. There are arguments uh that there are things that can possibly go wrong. So one of the problems with GMO, one of the problems with GMO crops, right, is uh here's one. This is a real one. One of the problems with GMO crops is that you could you're Monsanto, let's say, or someone else, and you own a GMO crop, you now have a patent on that crop, right?
+
+[12:44] You own it. So then um one of your seeds, some of your genetics can get uh float over uh you know into somebody else's field, right, and contaminate their field with your uh genetics. And then um, you know, you're selling your product because you're a normal farmer, and then Monsanto comes and sues you for stealing their uh genetics, and all you've done is save your seeds year after year, and some of Monsanto's seeds have gotten mixed in, not because you've bought it or stole it, but because their seeds have fallen onto your property, right? And so there are some legal ramifications of GMO that have put some farmers in some pretty tough spots uh as a result of uh uh of of that kind of uh transfer, right? I mean, there's also the possibility that someone could release a some sort of uh gene into the environment that turns out to be harmful 10, 15 years down the road, but the same could be said of um breeding a plant, you know, nor normally or any sort of normal thing.
+
+[13:43] There's always the possibility with new with new breeding. So the the real question is aside from patent infringement and you know and the legal issues that are involved in there, the question is is how is genetically how are genetically modified uh products fundamentally different from um the breeding that's been going on for hundreds of years, and in fact, is espoused by the same people as being great, as that that hate the GMO, right? Those same people love the fact that we have thousands of cultivars that have been bred over hundreds of years and are being preserved generation after generation. That's considered an absolute good by almost everyone in the field. Everyone, including the people who are doing GMOs, because it gives them a base of gene plasm to work from and to and to add with you know to things with.
+
+[14:24] But um, you know, most of my criticism of it just comes from the fact that the GMO stuff is usually shooting at stuff that I don't care about. It's the other uh problem is is that it can add to monoculture uh problems. If they come up with something that basically, if there's fire blight out there, let's say, and they come up with a product that is resistant to fire blight and it becomes the only product out there, well then when the next disease comes, they'll get wiped out, right? So there's there's all of these kind of arguments of how it can be bad, but I I don't know of any fundamental reason why they're why they're bad. Does that make sense?
+
+[14:53] Yeah, well, thanks for your time. I mean, do you agree or disagree? Yeah, no, I mean uh well, I mean, I I wouldn't I'm of course instinctively I always think that I want to find something that, you know, maybe that at least to say the jury's not out yet as to whether or not a lifetime of GMO consumption is bad. And you know, but right now, you know, uh other than that, it's true, you know, it's to say like if we don't own our seeds, then you know, is that bad? But it relates to the patent infringement.
+
+[15:22] Um I mean, would you go so far as to say the jury's not out? Well whether or not it's healthy or not? I'm always I'm always willing to be proved wrong on anything. I'll say that I haven't heard any uh argument um that that shows that it's that it's detrimental to us from a health standpoint. Right.
+
+[15:40] And you know, and and people say, well, if you don't know, then you can't do it. But there's plenty of things like that in the world where we we've wait weighed the risks and and we do it, you know. Um I think um, you know, I sure I'm willing to be I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I think it's like everything else in this field. The GMO is a tool. It's a tool.
+
+[15:58] And it's um it and it's been used incorrectly by a lot of people to do a lot of awful stuff, you know. And I think that what we need to do is not focus our enmity on the tool. Don't don't look at the at the hammer as the as the bad thing. Look at the carpenter swinging the hammer as the bad thing. You know, it's so it's like look at the way these tools are used and get angry about that and not about the tool itself.
+
+[16:23] Exactly. Okay, interesting. Well, I agree. All right. All right, and and Patrick and Nastash and I are gonna be working very soon.
+
+[16:31] If anyone out there is listening, we're gonna be doing a search very soon for an administrative fundraiser for the Museum of Food and Drink, right, Patrick? Yep. And uh, and then in about what do you think, Nastasha? Six months' time? Yeah.
+
+[16:44] Six months' time, we're gonna be doing a fundraiser much like the one we did here in New York at Del Posto several weeks ago. We're gonna be doing one in uh the Bay Area. Am I right? Do we have the location hammered down, Patrick? Uh no, but we have a few people who would like to do it.
+
+[16:57] Um, you know, we've expressed uh time uh interest from Shea Banese, although they're dealing with their 40th anniversary. So when is there 40th? Yeah, 40th anniversary. Um so anyway, you know, it's gonna be interesting, and I think there's about 10 or 12 chefs that have already want to participate. So it's gonna be pretty kick-ass.
+
+[17:13] Yeah, so for those of you lunatics who missed out, you know what? Well, I was thinking about this. If we had just told people on the air that, you know, you're gonna have like one of the greatest meals ever, it cost 250 dollars and it and it didn't have anything to do with fundraising, it's it should have it it would have it should have sold sold out, right? It's like it's like we don't even basically even need to tell them that it's going for a good cause because the meal is was is that good. Am I right, Patrick?
+
+[17:33] Yeah, it was really one of a kind. I mean, everyone was saying that. No one had ever had a meal like that, especially with all that talent. Right. So when we do it on the West Coast, you fools better not miss it.
+
+[17:42] Am I right? You're right. Alrighty, all right. We're gonna go to our first break. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[17:49] That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Oh, Al Green. I'm so in love with you. Whatever you want to do. So brand.
+
+[18:34] Miss Aene. Since we've been together. Ooh, loving you forever. Let me the one you come find to be home to. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[19:15] Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at 12 p.m. as she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the past by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where, and how. From as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables and deli counters of today. The show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures.
+
+[19:46] Again, that's Thursday at 12 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128.
+
+[20:01] So Rick Richard uh uh Kokovich called uh wrote in a comment on an ongoing discussion on the Aero Press Coffee Maker here. And it's gotta be the most embarrassing thing for me in the world that it's like a $30 item that we've discussed multiple times on this dang show, and we've had multiple questions about it. It's so easy to get. I could literally go on Amazon. One would show up at my doorstep tomorrow morning, and I can know from first hand experience how the dang thing is working.
+
+[20:28] And instead, through laziness and uh inertia, we have not done it. So let's make a pact that today, even we've even been offered to given one by some of our listeners, and we're just too lazy and stupid to take them up on it. So when this show is over, one of the first things I do before I order a delicious pizza from Roberta's and salad, which is what we always get as our post-show uh meal here. Uh I'm going to go on Amazon and uh Amazon Prime order us a an Aeropress coffee. Yes?
+
+[20:53] Yes. Okay. Richard writes in and says, Hi, I've been using my Aero Press for all my coffee needs, and he switched from the French press. And the comments that we've had on the show about the uh about the Aero Press's filter and flat taste are in his experience accurate. A couple of months ago, he had some guests for breakfast and whipped out the 51 ounce uh French press and the Aero Press, and the difference in flavor profile was noticeable.
+
+[21:12] The French press tasted brighter than the Aero Press with the same beans. Uh uh one of our listeners also mentioned that he thinks the filter is to blame because the paper is basically absorbing uh the coffee oils, right, and absorbing some of the flavor. And uh Richard uses the uh this filter uh several times to try and uh I guess saturate it with flavor so it doesn't uh uh uh suck any more out. But uh he thinks that's the reason that the taste is flat, and so he suggests that all the listeners out there, and we'll get one of these too is maybe is the Coava Disc, C-O-A-V-A, metal uh adapter filter disc for the Aero Press Coffee. So go check that one out.
+
+[21:46] Uh and check out the forums on coffee geek.com, which is uh, you know, I think probably one of the best websites for coffee that there is. I mean, I I used to go to it um all the time. Uh so anyway, good good to look at. But that brings us to coffee. Last week, what what day was it, Nastasha?
+
+[22:01] Tuesday. No, the coffee thing we did. Saturday. Saturday. Saturday.
+
+[22:05] Oh, yeah, Saturday. So Saturday night uh I judged along with uh um you know a couple other people the the latte a a latte art championship. So for those of you, I don't know, who've been buried under a rock for the last you know four years or so, latte art is where you uh draw pretty pictures in a in a latte uh and there's two different with milk, and there's two different ways of doing it. There's what's called free pour, where basically you just take a cup with espresso in it and you're uh pouring it, uh pour the milk into it. The milk has to be foamed in a very specific way to create something called a micro foam that doesn't have any big bubbles in it, right?
+
+[22:40] And the coffee has to be perfect with a nice crema, and you do what's called a free pour where you pour and you can make swans and and rosettas and tulips and hearts and all this. And you know, i i we judged on a various criteria like how good the contrast was between the darks and the lights, how symmetric they were, how much of the cup was being used. These guys are pretty good. They can they mean like I can't do it. I'm gonna be honest with you, I can't do it.
+
+[23:02] But uh what's really interesting is um is I was talking, and one of the judges is was the three-time uh Brazil all-time champion Barista. Her name just went out of my head, but I'll look it up. And she was uh she she was telling me we're talking about coffee, and I haven't really been involved uh with hardcore coffee espresso research in a long time. And one of the things that's happened in the past uh four years is um for those of you who don't drink espresso, start drinking espresso, but you know the what used to be a shot of espresso was a little under an ounce uh per shot, right? And so if you were gonna use like you would use like a 13 or 14 grams of coffee, ground coffee, to make like an ounce and a half to an ounce and three-quarter double, right?
+
+[23:46] That used to be kind of standard. Now people have upped it, it's like crept, and now it's gone up to like 16 grams of coffee, and they're pulling like an ounce out of it or less. And so that's you know, a ristretto, but rostretos have gotten preposterous over the past couple of years. Like you just get these tiny like little wisps of coffee on the bottom of your cup, and they're delicious, right? They can be delicious.
+
+[24:09] Um, but I'm just interested if any of our listeners, if they want to chime in, what they think about this creep towards hyper ristretos and uh what that's doing. It's definitely making us plow through a whole boatload of coffee. And so I started playing with it home, and I kind of I kind of like these like like super ristretto, but I'm trying to find a good middle balance. Anyway, that that's just a that's just amusing. Okay, Roy from Chicago, and I was supposed to talk about this at the top of the program.
+
+[24:32] Roy from Chicago uh wrote in, what happened to the blog? Are you still doing posts? A couple of things have happened to the blog, Roy. One, we were hacked uh about a week ago, and our site periodically keeps going down because uh of the hacking. So I know and I apologize to all of our listeners out there that um sometimes it's difficult uh to get into this site, and we're we're looking at it, we're we're we're trying to h uh hire a contract killer to go find out uh who it was that messed with our blog and uh execute them in a in a slow and painful fashion.
+
+[25:06] Yes? Yeah. Yes. He's still doing posts. Well, yeah.
+
+[25:10] The second thing is is that uh is that there has been, let's just say, a dearth of posts recently. Um I I am working to remedy that. Uh I have a post up right now that is uh still in draft phase about how uh about the museum, and I have at least five, six, seven posts in the wings waiting to be posted. Part of the reason that we haven't been posting, and these are just lame excuses, is because uh we're working we were working before very hard on the museum uh fundraiser, and then for the past two weeks we've been working very, very hard on on trying to figure out our new company and how we're actually gonna make a living and not uh, you know, leave our our f you know homeless, become homeless. Like that's kind of the main thing right now.
+
+[25:53] Um so uh yes, we will be we will be ramping up. As I said before, uh I will be contractually obliged to do for a month. We're gonna stick to that starting next week. I make it my pledge. Uh I'm also gonna try to start doing a lot of shorter posts.
+
+[26:08] I've kind of been uh slammed into these like two, three thousand, four thousand word posts, and it makes it very hard, especially because I like uh trying to get them as uh accurate as possible, and so it's uh difficult. These are just all stupid excuses. So, Roy, my apologies to you. And we will be uh up and running, hopefully hacker-free and also uh um more regular in the near future. Nistacha?
+
+[26:32] Uh yes. Any any comments? Uh no. You said it all. Yeah.
+
+[26:36] That that sounds like me. Alright. Uh, long time uh listener and actually person who went to our uh fundraiser, Colin uh wrote in, and he says, Dear flavor uh Dava Flav. I like that Dave of Flav. I always have to read his things relatively uh word for word so you get a feeling for his question, although sometimes I have to excise curses from them.
+
+[26:55] Anyway, egg yolks are kick-ass. I think I can say that. Right? Egg yolks are kick-ass, low temp egg yolks, especially kick ass. I have a few questions surrounding the gooey uh gooey golden orbs of goodness.
+
+[27:04] I want to end up with sheets of duck egg yolk that can be handled and drape over goose breast. For chicken eggs, I saw Alex and Aki, that's Alex Nackey of Ideas and Food, friends of ours, recommend uh 63.8 degrees Celsius, and my chart says more like 66 C. I haven't tried either with chicken eggs, but I tested them with duck eggs and found that 63.8 didn't seem firm enough. Uh I took them to 655 instead of 66 since it was preset into his old analog circulator. That yolk was still a bit gooey.
+
+[27:30] I thought, but don't have any examples to compare to other than the photos. The duck egg yolk seems a bit fattier to me, which might explain why it didn't seem as firm. Freezing after rolling out the yolk did help make it possible to cut and handle for about 10 seconds, but the whole sheet quickly got soft and goopy again. Strong enough to hold its shape when draped, but still a saucier consistency than I was expecting. Here are my questions.
+
+[27:49] That wasn't the question that was the prating. I've seen eggs cooked whole and then egg yolks removed for sheet rolling. Will egg yolks cooked to the same consistency as separated with raw, put in a ziploc and circulated to the desired temperature. This is what I did since I had other plans for the whites. Did I throw off the pH perhaps?
+
+[28:03] I don't know. I've never had a satisfactory answer for this, Colin, but I'll tell you this. Egg yolks cooked separately from uh egg whites do not have the same texture as ones that are cooked in the whole egg and then the whites uh used for some other purpose but removed after cooking. I don't know why this is. Wiley Dufrain asked me this, I don't know, maybe five years ago, and I didn't know why then.
+
+[28:24] I uh four years ago maybe I don't know why now. I've asked Harold, we don't know why, but when I'm doing a lot of these things, I will cook the, we will cook the yolks um in the egg and then remove them and use the whites as like uh as a uh cooked whites as an ingredient. There are dishes that I've done with egg yolks where I've mixed egg yolks with transglutaminase and salt and then put them into a zip and then uh and then cook them to create a sauce, but I've never done it for sheets. You can if you want to cook them separately, you can firm them up a bit by adding transglutaminase uh activa to it. It'll firm it up, especially if you cook it to the higher temperatures.
+
+[28:58] But if you add salt, that's gonna make them uh hold less. So you're not gonna want to add salt before you cook them. You can add salt after you cook them. It does make them look cool, it makes them look like icing when you add the salt. Okay.
+
+[29:09] Uh second question. If putting separated but intact raw eggs in the bag is okay, will the yolks also achieve the desired consistency if they're broken mixed together first? I've tried uh holding them whole versus splitting them. I haven't seen that much of a difference, but I think it might make a difference. So if you're gonna try and do it in the bag, I would hold them whole.
+
+[29:25] Um three, what procedure do you use when you make yolk sheets? Uh what I do is I cook them to about 66 degrees uh or or thereabouts uh for an hour, chill them, break out the yolks, smash the yolks together, uh, roll them uh between two sheets of plastic wrap and then uh and then and then cook them out. Yeah, I agree that Alex and Aki's 63.8 is too low. That's gonna be just barely set and not really good for sheeting unless you kind of freeze it out first. And fourthly, uh, last question on the eggs.
+
+[29:52] What are the differences between duck egg yolk and chicken egg yolk and how may this be affecting the texture I'm seeing? I don't know. They are slightly different. We've been keep cooking them the same temperature at the school, but I haven't done enough textures w uh tests with duck egg yolk to know for certain. Uh same with quail.
+
+[30:05] I do know that the proteins are slightly different, which is why it's easier to make uh transparent uh eggs with lye with duck eggs than with chicken. But uh uh come back to us when you get uh some more experience and see whether you agree. Caller, do we have a caller? Yeah. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[30:20] Hi, this is hi, this is Brian. How are you guys? Doing all right, how you doing? Great. Um got a question.
+
+[30:26] I don't have a smoker. Thought about uh buying those Bradley smokers. Um, but I'm interested in doing some hacks uh at at home. Right. Um uh in either my Weber uh or in my oven or in indoors.
+
+[30:43] So I'm wondering if I want to do a DIY smoker setup, both both for um cold smoking and hot smoking. Um any suggestions? So you want to do it without um without buying the Bradley. Basically you want like as as as inexpensive as is humanly possible, right? Um but safe relatively.
+
+[31:04] I like relatively safe. Assuming you have an outdoor space, it's not gonna catch on fire. Um I have a little balcony. Right. So okay.
+
+[31:11] So you're live in an apartment, you know. Oh yeah, not a lot of space. I know. I know how that is. I know how that is.
+
+[31:17] All right, so the so hot smoking. Right. Hot smoking is relatively easy. So with that, you could probably modify the Weber just by putting like a hot plate that you get at, you know, uh the CVS or the right aid, whatever cheapest, like find one on the street, whatever. Modify a hot plate to use as your heat generator, and you could generate smoke that way in and it'd probably work in a Weber.
+
+[31:40] You know, they used to sell, and they I'm sure they still do, basically just cylinders, which were, you know, modified drums, like 30 gallon drums, and they and they had a uh you know just a crappy electric heating element in the bottom of them that you could adjust the temperature of so that your heat wouldn't go either too low or too high. Soak the chips and put them in uh in uh aluminum foil or something like that, put it on the on the heating element and go, right? And so then you know the next level on that is if do you want to temperature control that on the hot smoke side, right? Then you could do stuff like um add a PID controller uh that instead of adjusting the smoking temperature would adjust probably the draft the vents right and like turn on a fan and extract smoke out to adjust the temperature something like that, right? Uh so like you know that is you know relatively cheap and easy.
+
+[32:27] Now the question is if you want to do legitimate cold smoke, what you have to do is separate the smoke generator from the uh from the actual cabinet where you're where you're smoking. And so typically what people will do is they'll they'll build a box fireproof preferably that uh but you could use almost anything and put the that as long as it's not going to melt and then put the uh the heat generator in the smoke generator rather in that and then just take pipe like cheap uh uh cheap you know galvanized duct pipe that you could get at uh you know home depot or any one of these places and then connect the duct pipe from the smoke generator to whatever you're gonna smoke in and again that what you're gonna smoke in can be anything that is kind of food grade that's gonna take the heat so people use refrigerators people use uh whatever you know uh what as long as it contains the as long as it contains the the smoke then you um then basically you know if the smoke's not cold enough you either extend the length of the pipe or I know some people have like put water over the pipe or packed ice around to try and get the temperature down so now you can get a really nice cold cold smoke um but uh then if you want to actually then increase the heat in the smoking cabinet you have to put in a separate element to provide heat to the cabinet. Does that make sense? What do you mean by the separate al element because you've you well once the smoke is cold once the smoke is is cold smoke then if you actually want to cook at the same time with the smoke you actually have to heat the cabinet. Or I you know or you could just reduce the length of the pipe to a thing I guess to jack the heat up um or vent it less it'll eventually will accumulate uh will accumulate uh this stuff there's a whole bunch and I haven't built one uh in since literally since I was in high school was the last time I built which is you know a long long time ago I built one for my mom but um uh it's been a long time since I've built one just because I've been in the city this whole time and I and I don't even have a balcony which is pathetic.
+
+[34:22] Uh you know on the cheap side for a smoker if you want to get buy one that's a hot smoker that works fairly well and I know Wiley used it but it doesn't have anywhere near good temperature control is uh the uh I think Little Chief is the name of the smoker and it's basically a box with the heating element in the bottom. And that thing works great and I know people have customized that one. I think there's little chief and it might be a big chief. They've customized that one to get um to get lower temperatures. I know Nils did some work with that and like I say Wiley's been using that for a long time.
+
+[34:49] So that's a good entry level just do you s could buy that and then have the pipe set up as well. And then hack it. Yeah buy that one and you can start with hot smoking and it works great and is small and is like relatively friendly, like sits out and plugs in. It's not huge. It's like you know, can fit on a tabletop.
+
+[35:06] And uh and and that, like I said, that's the one that Wiley used for a long time, and and we got one at the school and Nills used it. And then um and then you can start hacking with that to try and get the temperature down by adding uh adding different controls or venting it more, or trying to remove the smoke generator from the cabinet. Mm-hmm. Got it. Um I I I have another barbecue related question, if I can ask it now.
+
+[35:30] All right. Um I've been reading about this Japanese charcoal, the binsoton charcoal. What's the what's the deal with that? It it seems like it's kind of smokeless, it lasts a long time. Um it looks really cool, it's an extremely expensive stuff, you know.
+
+[35:46] And so what they'll do is like they'll cook with it inside. I mean, look, Japanese they're cooking inside with charcoal and have for a long time. I guess they're not as culturally worried about the carbon monoxide poisoning as we are. Like, if you open look at any bag of charcoal produced in the US, it has warnings all over it never to ever even think of lighting it indoors, right? Uh and so uh those guys, uh the binshoton guys, I mean they they cook inside all the time with it.
+
+[36:10] And in fact, they did a demo at the school a couple of years back that had a really awesome uh they they built a sand pit that the binsoton was cooked in, they built the fire with the binshoton uh charcoal in the sandpit, and then we're cooking over that. Um and I I got to play with the charcoal with the binsoton and and look at it, and indeed it does have very low smoke output, right? Uh but here's the de here's the deal, right? Uh it's I can't dis I could not discern the difference between binshoton and high quality uh American produced hardwood charcoal, right? So if you go and you look at the bag of charcoal that you bought and it looks like chunks of wood that are black, right?
+
+[36:52] You were gonna be able to get the same results. This is my opinion talking here. This is not that I've done a side by side, but uh having lit a whole bunch of uh of like good old fashioned like hardwood charcoal, like it does to my mind the same kind of job that the bintroton does. It's just not nearly as expensive, right? They the the one that's not gonna work the same way as the bintroton are the compressed briquettes, right?
+
+[37:16] Those are gonna but it doesn't look like wood. Right, doesn't look like wood. And those things have usually been treated with uh often have been treated with something, right? So they're they operate fundamentally differently than these ones that look like chunks of wood. Now, the other reason why the Japanese system is theoretically smokeless, right, is because the way that they cook in it is they'll stick their food on the end of a skewer, embed the skewer in the sand, uh not over the bintroton, but next to the bintroton, right?
+
+[37:45] So the the heat the heat from the from the bintoton charcoal is radiating out and cooking it such that the fat from the meat is not dripping onto the the bintroton. As soon as fat and liquid start dripping onto the charcoal, I don't care what you're using, you're gonna get smoke, right? Right? Flare up. Right there's yeah, there's but but you know the the good news for flare-ups, and I've said this forever, and Nathan Mirvold and Chris Young have basically now are all you know, they say it in their book, so I feel like vindicated, is that uh that's where the flavor comes from, is the flare-ups.
+
+[38:15] You know what I mean? Like that, like or at least part of the flavor that I really like comes from this combustion that happens during the flare-ups. Uh and so if you don't have things dripping on the charcoal, you might get some sort of smokiness, and if you did, that would kind of negate any sort of theory they have that it's absolutely smokeless because you've got some sort of flavor off the fact that you've combusted something, right? But uh, but in fact, uh I like a little bit of that s that smoke and and combustion and all that stuff because I think that's where a lot of the good uh flavor comes from. But if you want to experiment with bintroton, I think you could build a like a sand thing and use uh uh like a high quality American hardwood charcoal.
+
+[38:52] It's not maybe as long as the Binchoton because they're very careful about the shape and the way it looks, because a lot of that is aesthetic in nature, right? I mean, a lot of the Binchoton has to do with uh aesthetics, right? Another interesting thing, it might get me in trouble about Jap the Japanese like the Binchoton thing is is that I don't know that they've uh that the people who are advocates of binsoton have done a lot of experiments with the American product. I think they just see the charcoal briquettes say, you know, Americans don't know jack doodley about uh charcoal, and therefore like this one has to be the best, not saying, hey, here's an American product that might perform the same way. That's just not usually how those demonstrations and discussions happen.
+
+[39:29] Do you know what I mean? Got it. Got it. Um so with the Bentoton charcoal, I might as well be putting something in the broiler because it's essentially smokeless. It doesn't seem to really uh it's it's not quite the same in terms of barbecue as what you're saying.
+
+[39:44] Right. Doesn't get those same flavors. I've never done a side-by-side, so I'm gonna I'm hesitant to to to say, yes, that's the case, but you know, for for me, I think that if you're not generating a lot of smoke, you're probably not getting a lot of extra flavor, except for the fact that the way that heat is being delivered is different, right? So assuming that you can get a lot higher uh heat radiation out of co uh coal than you can out of your broiler, especially your average broiler, then yes, maybe it's gonna give a better product, but insofar as it's smokeless, I don't think you're getting an any extra added uh flavor, you know? Great.
+
+[40:17] Yeah. Thanks. It's really helpful. I really appreciate it, Dave. Thank you.
+
+[40:20] All right, and on Okay, bye bye. Bye bye. On the way out, we got uh one last question from Colin. Does he do we have any suggestions for how to prepare a wild Canada goose? He wants to jug it in the form of jugged hairs.
+
+[40:31] Jugging is a technique where you cook meat, usually in a in a container, uh, with that, you know, it basically braises in it in a in a enclosed container and jugged hair and civets and things like that. Uh not civic cats, but civet meaning blood uh sauce with hair is the classic thing. Uh, do we have any suggestions? He tested his sliver at 60 degrees Celsius for 45 minutes, uh, and he didn't like it. And he tried seven hours at 58 uh degrees, and it was also too tough.
+
+[40:55] Uh couple things on this. I've never cooked Canadian geese, so it's hard for me to say exactly how to cook it. I will say this anything that kills those vicious bastards that Canadian geese are is a good thing. Canadian geese are the most vicious, evil uh creatures. If you've ever had them like land in your area and attack you as you're walking towards uh a pond or a lake, you know how evil they are.
+
+[41:17] Plus, they poop all over everything. So I encourage the legal bagging and cooking of Canada geese. So we have to come up with a recipe, Canadian geese, though. We have to come up with a recipe. I like them.
+
+[41:26] You like them? I think they're so pretty. You're from the West Coast, right? I know. That's why.
+
+[41:30] That's why. I was attacked by one as a kid. Yeah, they're evil, vicious, vicious creatures, as opposed to ducks, which are nice, and yet we eat them all the time. Geese are evil, evil. So that was Jack, by the way, our intrepid uh our intrepid uh engineer.
+
+[41:44] Okay. So here's my here's the the problem you're gonna have. Uh uh Canadian geese, the breast meat doesn't have a lot of uh connective tissue. So cooking it for a long time isn't going to uh tenderize it very much, in my in my this is my opinion. Now I haven't tried it.
+
+[42:00] I would try doing around 60 uh three degrees. It depends on how dark the meat is. I would try doing anywhere between 57 and 63 uh for uh 45 minutes. Sounds about right. 58 is gonna be too low.
+
+[42:12] I'm assuming it's gonna cook more like a chicken, you're gonna want to jack it up. I don't think seven he tried it for seven hours at 58. I don't think that's gonna work. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to Colin get back to you on this one. I'm gonna do some more research on old tough game meets.
+
+[42:24] I think it's an incredibly important thing for all of us to uh to pay attention to because I'm trying to encourage every hunter in the world to buy a circulator to cook their game meats, right? Every if you are a hunter and you are listening to this and you do not own a circulator, you are doing your meat a disservice. So we gotta figure out how to cook this, Colin, and uh so so give us a call, give us a right, and uh let's figure this out together. This has been Cooking Issues. We're coming back next week on Tuesday.
+
+[43:01] Oh, you dead. Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with the Do Something Real Film Festival. A collection of six provocative character-driven films focused on food, environmental issues, and everyday people with a greater vision. Come see one of the six features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m. Learn more about the films and special events at www.do something real dot com.
+
+[43:34] That's www.do something r-e-e-l dot com. Sponsored by Whole Foods Market. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. The Snacky Tunes compilation has arrived and is available for free on our website, Heritage Radio Network.com. This compilation features live performances from some of the hottest acts around today, including Midnight Magic, Surfer Blood, Overhopper, and more.
+
+[44:08] Again, you can download this compilation for free on our website, HeritageRadio Network.com, and make sure to listen to SnackyTunes every Monday at 2 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious.
+
+[44:33] The Fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high-quality honey at an amazing value with the Fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels.
+
+[44:56] It's a no-brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
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+[0:08] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I am the host of Cooking Issues, Dave Arnold here with Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, New York. Coming to you every Tuesday from approximately 12 to 1245. Call in all of your cookie related questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:30] Actually, Nastasha prefers the non-cookie related questions, right? I do, I prefer issues. Yeah, she he she prefers just straight up issues, and if you knew her better, uh you'd see why. Today's come on now, right? Today's episode is brought to you by the Hearst Ranch.
+
+[0:44] Hearst Ranch is a nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the Central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscapes. For more information, go to www.herstranch.com. That's www.hurstranch.com.
+
+[1:07] Hey, Nastasha, anything uh interesting happened this week? Yeah. What? I can't. Well, you can't devolve it?
+
+[1:14] No. Really? Yeah. Wow. I'm intrigued.
+
+[1:18] Do I know this stuff? Yeah. Oh, really? I feel like I feel like I'm being left uh hanging. I'm gonna hear I'm gonna Well, for all of you out there in internet land, I'm gonna get the real skinny when it comes to be pizza time.
+
+[1:32] By the way, the payment we get for doing this fabulous show every week is a pizza and a salad, correct? Yes. Yes, anyway. Uh not that we not that that's not good enough payment, Jack. Just talking about here.
+
+[1:43] Oh, uh diet? No, not diet. Regular doctor's pepper for you. Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, here come the questions from Andrew Cummings.
+
+[1:51] Hi, Dave and Nastasha. I really like all the stuff you do, apart from providing me with tons of ideas. I think he must be from England. Oh, Australia, I guess he said, right? Because he spells tons in the British fashion.
+
+[2:01] Hmm. Reading your articles and listening to your radio show, uh, keep my passion for food going. Well, thank you. He's a food technologist. A an honorable profession when done right.
+
+[2:10] When done right. An honor very honorable profession when done right. Uh he's wondering if I can tell him anything about cinnamon and its gelling effects. A couple of years ago, he was working for a chocolatier uh at a small boutique store and saw that the liquid comp uh component of some panforte, which is a delicious kind of it's weird kind of candy dense sweet from Siena. I actually like it.
+
+[2:28] Do you like it? I don't know it. You know, it's that really dense, dark with all the nuts and the candy fruit in it. It's got the it's got the wafer paper on the bottom and it it stays good forever, and you slice it into discs into wedges. Is it like uh caramelli?
+
+[2:42] No, it's not. Imagine like a fruit cake without the cake. Hmm. Anyway, um, but it's it's real dense. Anyway, uh sorry.
+
+[2:49] Sorry for interrupting the middle of your question there, uh, Andrew. Um so he was making some panforte, and uh the stuff had turned into a thick slime, and he asked his boss about it, and he said it happens whenever he adds a cinnamon, and he looked around on the internet for some explanation as why cinnamon would cause this kind of gelling effect, but could find no academic papers on it. I'm guessing it's probably some polysaccharide uh similar to what's in gum arabic, but he'd like to know uh if it can be extracted and used as a future gelling agent. Well, I was not uh able to find uh any information on that, although there is a polysaccharide in cinnamon that some nut job has named uh cinnamon AX polysaccharide that has some sort of BS health benefit or something like that, but it doesn't say anything about its gelling properties. I doubt it's um exactly similar to gum arabic, because gum arabic isn't just it's not a bark phenomenon, it's a uh it's a sap phenomenon.
+
+[3:37] So gum arabic is a mix of protein, uh small amount of protein, and gum sap. Um, although there could be some residual stuff in the bark, and clearly there are many barks that are used for thickening. For instance, uh, you know, philae powder, uh, which is that the leaves or the bark? I always forget. Anyways, so yeah, yes, obviously there's probably some sort of um some sort of gelling agent in it.
+
+[3:58] Another thing is panforte is very, very thick and usually uses uh a boiled sugar component. So it's probably close to gumming up on you anyway. So the addition of anything that's gonna absorb water and have any sort of polysaccharide or water binding effect might cause it to gum up. But um, I'm interested in this. I'm gonna ask Maggie if I have m-naggy.
+
+[4:16] Niggy. I'm gonna ask uh McGee next time I speak to him if I can remember. An interesting thing is that um cassia, not regular cinnamon, but cassia, uh, has in it uh coomarin, which is an anticoagulant. So the exact opposite of making things thick, making things thin. Anyway, I was not able to find anything, but uh I'm gonna keep my uh ears out for that.
+
+[4:34] And anyone else, if you hear anything about it or have had experience, please write in and tell us because we're interested in that sort of thing. Okay. I'm gonna go on to Hello from Adam. Adam has a bacon-related question that he hopes we can help him with. You think so?
+
+[4:50] Baking. Baking. You think we can help? Yeah. I don't know.
+
+[4:54] Uh, okay. Uh this is actually a pretty complicated one, so I'm just gonna read it straight out. He said, you know, there are plenty of situations where you need to hydrate a dough to work uh to work it, but where uh the gluten formation is the enemy. For instance, pie dough, biscuits, scones, cakes, cookies, etc. To keep the gluten under control, you usually use low-protein flour, avoid overworking, uh, and then add a lot of a fat.
+
+[5:13] And the fat basically is uh is coating the uh the flour particles and preventing uh the water from forming gluten. Okay. So, and recently he's read about uh experimenting replacing water in a pastry crispy, uh in a pastry crust recipe with vodka, since apparently alcohol doesn't have the gluten-activating properties that water does, uh producing hypothetically producing a crust with even less chewiness than usual. This is true. Uh this is not only for pie crusts, this is also for batters.
+
+[5:37] So, I mean, the famous examples uh in pie crust land would probably be America's test kitchen. Uh Chris Kimball's um, you know, his show that he's Cook's Illustrated guy, where they have their uh pastry, uh their their pie crust recipe that includes a good portion of vodka in it, uh, does two things. One allows you to add more uh liquid so that you can make it a little more, it's not as uh it's not as flaky, it doesn't come apart in your hands, it volatilizes off and doesn't form a lot of gluten, so it can be rolled without it getting tough, right? So that's one application. Uh the second famous one is probably Heston Blumenthal's uh fish and chips batter, where he will add vodka to the batter to prevent sort of gluten formation to make it stay crisp without it getting tough at all, without the batter getting tough at all, and without having to add a lot of extra uh, you know, uh starch binders other than flour to get it to be uh where he wants.
+
+[6:25] So these are two very well-known applications of uh alcohol being used as the well, hydrates the wrong word because it's not water, but you know what I'm saying, to give the dough some sort of plasticity. So uh anyway, so uh he goes on and he says, it sounds like the holy grail of pastry crust is a dough with no gluten formation whatsoever. I wonder what would happen if you inhibit uh gluten formation entirely with the starch still being in granular form. I think you still want the granules to be hydrated to some extent, even if they're just swelling and setting uh together in an extremely delicate array with little uh intergranule entanglements so that you're not eating something that's gonna turn it to dust when you uh bite down on it. Well, okay.
+
+[7:01] Zero gluten formation, uh 100% zero gluten formation is actually quite problematic because it means the dough is extremely hard to work. This is why uh it's very difficult to work many gluten-free recipes, right? So if you're gonna make a I mean, people do make uh pie crusts and whatnot exclusively out of things like potato flour and rice flour for gluten-free recipes, uh, but these doughs are typically extremely hard to handle. The same way that non-flour dumpling wrappers are hard to handle. And the way that those are usually solved is that you will pre-cook, pre-boil uh a portion of your starch so that the starch will entangle itself a little bit to give you a little bit of structure so that you can then uh form it into a workable dough.
+
+[7:40] So a little bit of gluten formation uh can be helpful for or is always helpful usually in in formation of dough, not so much in batters. Uh so in batters it's not as as big a deal. But anyway, so he so he goes on, and his his last thing is positive, he's saying, a while ago I was talking about the free sauce stability of gelling agents, and this came to mind. What if we had a gel that had poor heat stability so that uh the gel is holding on to most of the water when you're forming the dough, but when it's heated, the gel loses uh its hold on the water and allows it to seep into the flour, um, and that would control the shape of baked goods and make it so that it had a fairly high water content uh without it for having a lot of gluten formation. Well, I'm not sure if that would actually be uh useful or not, but if you want to experiment with it, uh, because you know, in general, like very, very low water formation things still are delicious.
+
+[8:25] The classic example is shortbread, which is basically, you know, you take uh uh butter and sugar and a tiny bit of flour and just barely get it to hold together and you bake it. And is there anything more delicious than shortbread? No. No? You like it?
+
+[8:38] I know. Do you like you don't like it? I don't really like it. You don't like shortbread? No.
+
+[8:42] What? It's like hard tech. Are you nuts? Who made your shortbread? Who made your shortbread?
+
+[8:48] Jeez, my god. Shortbread like hard tech? My god! Anyway, I'm sorry for that outburst. Uh all right, listen, we have a collarbot.
+
+[8:59] I'm gonna tell you uh first, try an agar fluid gel. If you want to get something that's going to hold onto water, but at the closer to boiling point, we'll melt out. Capacarogene won't form a fluid gel, so you can't use it even though it's going to melt at a lower temperature. Hard tech indeed. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[9:13] Hi, Dave. I love the show, by the way. Lots and lots of useful hints. I have a couple questions about hydrocolides. Alright.
+
+[9:21] Specifically, I've been using agar and uh guargum together. Sorry, Xantham and Guaragum to stabilize emulsions. Right. And I was wondering, do you have any tips for making them heat resistant? Particularly like a Hollandaise or a Verblon.
+
+[9:35] Okay. What guar are you using? Uh it's just just as guar gum on it, I got it from Will Powder. Okay, I don't know which um Will's a good guy. Taste it.
+
+[9:45] If it has a bad taste to it, it means he's sourcing, and it's no offense to him because I don't know what he's sourcing, but he's sourcing an inexpensive guar. Uh and if that has a beanie taste to it, this is before I answer your question. If it has a beanie kind of off taste to it, you're gonna want to call a company called T I C gums uh and get their theirs, which is called uh guar flavor, it's flavor-free guar NT 2000 or some crap like that, but it's flavor-free guar. And that stuff's awesome, right? That stuff's really good.
+
+[10:13] Now, Will might be sourcing that. So if you taste his guar and it and it tastes okay, then I'd I'd stick stick with it. Uh but if it does have kind of an off taste to you, then um I'd look into getting other guar. Now, what specific problems are you having with stability using that system? Well, what it is is it's uh uh a a reasonable temperature.
+
+[10:34] It's uh it's very, very stable, more stable than any Hollandaise or Burblan making. But I want something that I can pour onto the plate, like at the same heat that I would pour, like a demiglass or any other typical hot sauce. But when I get up to those temperatures, you know, like the 60 neighborhood, they uh the guard uh won't help it and it just splits eventually. So even at sixty, even at sixty, did you? Well, no, no, I wasn't I wasn't being that precise with my with my measurements because I'm not keeping it in circulators.
+
+[11:02] I was keeping it trying to keep it just in the traditional steam table where you don't have that c sort of control. So I was wondering like I have methyl cellulose, is there any other products that or or combinations or percentages that that will increase the uh the heat resistance? Well, methyl cell is m the problem with methyl cell is methyl cell gels when it gets hot, so it's gonna get firm is and it's not gonna stay portable. I'm surprised so when you heat guar, what happens is um guar loses some of its thickening power. It doesn't get damaged in any way.
+
+[11:31] When it cools down, it will come back to its thickness. But guar loses uh a bit of its thickness as it gets heated up. Uh unlike Xanthan, which loses its uh which only loses a very little bit of its uh um abilities when it when it's heated up. Now uh yeah, I wouldn't want to thicken the uh the guar at all because I mean add more guar because A, you're gonna start tasting guar and and B, it's gonna get too thick when it gets cold. Um I'm wondering whether the heat that the damage is actually happening to the egg proteins in it, right?
+
+[12:01] In which case it's like I'm to keep it as as more like a traditional Holland well, first I was doing Hollandaise uh that style, then I I tried doing Burblan and I had good results of both. But I'm trying to keep that uh uh original uh Hollandaise Burblan texture, and I thought if I if I brought my percentages too high, it it became a bit too well gummy, you know what I mean? Right. So I was wondering if if 'cause already I found that doing the Xanthan and the Guar together made good results. I was wondering if there was a third guy to bring in there that might bring some of that heat resistance without bringing my percentages too high.
+
+[12:35] Triple gum systems can be difficult because uh you can have multiple interactions with things. So what what you like you basically you don't have an emulsifier in there. What you the only emulsifier you have are the uh well the egg in the one and the and the milk solids in the other. So um you know both the guar and the xanthan, the guar is acting basically as uh as a thickening agent to prevent the the particles from glomming together, and the and the xanthan is acting as a weak gelling agent when it's not being stirred, right? And so that's basically your stabilization system.
+
+[13:07] You might want to move to an added emulsifier. So uh a good one in this choice might be gum arabic, right? So instead of using xanthan, we use a mix of gum arabic and xanthan called ticoloi, they're they're also from TIC gums, ticoloid 310s and ticoloid 210s, and it's a basically it's a mix of xanthan and gum arabic. Gum arabic is gonna act as your as your emulsifier, right? And then um the and the and the xanthan is gonna act as your stabilizer as a weak gelling agent when you're not stirring and sitting on the scene table.
+
+[13:39] I've made butter syrups, just butter syrups with that, that will sit on your bench or get heated indefinitely without breaking. So then if you're having further problems with breaking, you can add something like guar or even a starch to something like egg yolk to prevent the egg yolk proteins from being able to to to uh to coagulate and uh um you know and turn crappy on you. So you I would move to I would try a system of of gum arabic and xanthan, and an easy pre-mix one is a ticoloi uh 210 or 310 S, which they'll sell to you or sample out to you, uh, and or just get commercially available gum arabic and add it into that. Because I think what you need is to add an actual emulsifier. And the r the good the good news about the gum arabic is it's fairly stable over a wide range of heats, and it's also fairly stable over a wide range of dilution.
+
+[14:24] So if you were to then suddenly use a uh like f like like you could even fortify liquid into that Bur Blanc to to uh thin it out a little bit and it would still hold its sauce consistency. So it acts uh it's a lot more friendly than a traditional Bur Blanc, and it could make you could have like a base there that would be useful for a lot of different recipes. Right, right, great. So uh gum arabic definitely sounds like the uh the next thing I need to try. Uh can I hit you with one more quick one before I go?
+
+[14:48] Sure. The uh I heard you talking about uh gum uh like candies just a second ago, and I was actually planning on doing a wedding where I was gonna have candies at the end. What product is the best one to use to get that that sour patch kids kind of stretchy uh jellies. Well, so like the classic American ones, you want an American sour patch kid, those are gelatin. That's just straight up gelatin.
+
+[15:09] Uh and then I was I was using that now, it was getting like more kind of solid cuttable before it was getting stretchy. What uh what am I doing wrong? Um, I mean, I haven't I haven't uh it's been a long time since I've worked with anything like that. I've never gotten really good results. They but the from everything I've read, like the the the gummy bears are starch molded, and so it's all about getting uh you know that's why they have that poured looking back because they're molded into starch, right?
+
+[15:33] So it's like it's it's all about getting your moisture levels right and just not rushing it. Like those gummy bears take a couple days to make. So they're you know what I mean, and so it's it's all about getting the moisture level right and having them dry at exactly the right rate. That's why gummy bears, they don't last in the bag, right? You could tell if you got an old one because they turn hard and the and the young ones that are just right have the right texture.
+
+[15:53] So, I mean, I would look at you can look in some of the old books, like uh like that one I mentioned a bunch of weeks back, I don't have the name in my head, it's by Kirkland called Professional Petisserie from like the 1800s like early 1900s, because they have all the cornstarch recipes, but there are some modern books that also talk about that. I don't know whether Tora Blanca's book talks about that, but he talks a lot about cornstarch and molding, and it's interesting, interesting stuff. European based jellies are more based on pectin, but that's more of those fruit slice textures that your teeth sink into, and they're not the same as a gummy bear. Also good, and I think probably easier and faster to make. Yeah, all right.
+
+[16:31] What do you mean, bleeding? You mean from your tongue after you ate it? I hadn't dry them properly, but they uh they uh are the other thing I was I was doing half citric acid, half sugar, because I didn't want to cut it with pure citric acid. I think it was the sugar when it contacted the jelly, it started uh leaching water. Hmm.
+
+[16:46] That's interesting. It probably just wasn't I mean I it I've never done a coating of a candy like that. I I they probably make the candy first and then spray it with something so they can pan it. Do you know what I'm saying? So they probably have a I don't know that for certain.
+
+[16:59] I'm saying that I'm saying that out loud, just saying it, but uh that's how I would do it. Rather than try to control the uh the the powder and and the candy making at the same time. But uh in cornstarch or something like that. Uh well they mold them in cornstarch and then they probably they probably have something that they paint paint on to pan it. I'm not sure what, like maybe an alcoholic, and then get it to adhere.
+
+[17:19] But I I don't know. I'd have to look into it. But the citric acid shouldn't cause you any problems. But go ahead and get some other acids too. Get malic acid, get tartaric acid.
+
+[17:27] All right, uh well when I go and find my uh gum arabic, I'll uh I'll look for those two as well. Alright, give us a holler. Thanks a lot. Alright, thanks a lot, Dave. All right, bye.
+
+[17:35] We're going on to our first commercial break on cooking issues. Well, I know it's kinda late. I hope I didn't wake you. What I've gotta say can't wait. I know you'd understand.
+
+[17:59] Every time I try to tell you, the words just came out wrong. So I have to say hello in a song. Every time I'm near you, I just brought out of things to say. I know you'd understand. Every time I try to tell you the words just came out wrong.
+
+[18:33] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. So that was Jim Croce. We haven't had Jim Croce as our uh as our middle music before, right, Nastasha. Yeah, we love Jim Croce because I used to listen to it when my mom when I was growing up, used to play it all the time. But like she has this song where he's like, Nastash and I always joke about this.
+
+[18:46] He has this song where he's like, I know it's kind of late, I hope it didn't wake you. And then he goes on to like have this like like crappy love palm where he's like, I hope I, you know, I just called to say I love you in the song, but like so Nastasha and I always go through it, we're like, you know, it's the phone's ringing at 3 a.m. You pick it up and you're like, Who died? Who died? Who died?
+
+[19:04] Oh, Jesus. And he's like, I know it's kinda late. You're like, what? What? Jims, snap out of it.
+
+[19:10] Anyway, okay. We have a question from let's see which one we're gonna take next. We have a question from Johnny Hunter in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi. I have a couple questions about using Activa RM in dry curry meats.
+
+[19:22] Activa RM, uh, for those of you out there, not in the note is meat glue, the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful product that glues any proteins together. Uh, first, uh, does it work to glue two muscles together and then do a dry cure? He was thinking this might be nice as he was trying to do a dry cured ham without the bone. Uh, it would allow for better uh shape and uh and less air pockets, etc. That's true.
+
+[19:41] The way they do a boneless uh like a prosciutto is they actually cure it bone in and then they debone it and they have a very high pressure press that presses it into a ham-shaped mold. That's why all prosciuttoes are the same shape, because they've been crushed into that mold, at least the ones that are boneless. Um, so yes, this would work. Um this would definitely work. I mean, make sure that you add some, you know, it might help you because you could salt in that interior portion, and so when you're curing your own ham, a lot of times you'll get taint or lack of cure along the bone line because it's not going in, especially through the fatty areas.
+
+[20:11] And so this would give you an opportunity to get some of the cure on the inside of the meat, as long as you didn't oversalt it. And then uh you could still glue even over a light salting there, and you're not gonna get a lot of bacterial problems. I mean, the one main problem you're gonna have from doing it is you're going to be uh introducing bacteria into something and then gluing it shut. So you want to make sure that you're killing bacteria right away there. So I would definitely put um some some nitrites, nitrates rather, or trites, I guess ham traits, and some salt.
+
+[20:37] Enough salt to kill whatever ails you on the surface of that, because otherwise you're gonna be in deep, deep doo-doo. I don't want you to get anybody sick. Uh second question on meat glue was uh about um rolling cured bellies. Uh he mentions Thomas Keller's recipe in under pressure for rabbit bacon. I was like, rabbit bacon, that's crazy.
+
+[20:53] Rabbit bacon? That's a pain in the butt. Think of how small the belly on a rabbit would be. But he didn't mean that. He meant rabbit with bacon, not bacon made from the bellies of rabbits, because even Keller's not that decadent to like kill a thousand rabbits for one serving.
+
+[21:06] Although maybe he is, I don't know. Uh, I mean, I don't really know the guy, so uh so basically what Keller does is he layers rabbit up with bacon using um activa, using meat glue. Uh and and uh uh Johnny's tried this with a couple of different animals, including rabbit and goat. And after he cooks the bellies and slice them and roast them in the oven, they come apart. So is there any way to do it since the meat doesn't separate when it's cooked at a high temperature?
+
+[21:28] Thanks a bunch. So uh here's the problem. You're I read Thomas Keller's recipe in the book, and it's not apparent how much kind of uh meat glue you have to add, and he's laying slices of bacon together with like one layer of meat glue. You need to make sure, first of all, when you're gluing um things that have a lot of fat, you're not actually gluing the fat. What you're doing is gluing the connective tissue, the collagen and the different proteins that form the network of uh of the fat before it's rendered, which is why you can't glue rendered fat.
+
+[21:54] You can only glue glue what are you calling, native fat? Native fat? Yes. Yeah. Uh so uh basically if it's rendered it it can't be glued.
+
+[22:02] What you are gluing is the stuff that ends up being a chicharone if you were to cook it long enough. That's that protein residue. Okay. So you want to make sure that it all of it has a thin dusting of meat glue on it, and then even at high temperatures, the stuff won't come apart. If you brutalize it, like you fry it in an oven, sometimes the violence of the frying can make the meat pieces come apart, but the bond itself won't be damaged as long as you have uh enough meat glue such that um connective tissue is always touching uh connective tissue.
+
+[22:29] So I would make sure that you get both sides of any belly that you were doing. You might even want to switch instead of using uh Activa RM, using Activa GS, which uses gelatin as its bonding agent, it's gonna be a little bit stronger of a bond. And also you can paint it on to make sure you're not missing anything. Just don't add too much liquid or it's gonna be a problem. Uh Keller also recommends an under pressure using a like a like a sieve, like a handheld sieve.
+
+[22:51] Don't use that. Use like a cocoa duster because it's gonna get a much finer uh coating. So you should be able to get it to work if you if you do it. And on a side note, I had a lot of comments on our blog recently coming from nut job wing dang freak shows who are anti-meat glue because of some knee jerk reaction that they think they're going to the butcher and their butcher is serving them some sort of like hacked up piece of hamburger and selling it to them as a whole steak. And it's all based on some crappy, crappy uh expose in quotes, because it's not an expose, it's an expose of something that's not happening on a show uh in Australia called Today Tonight Show.
+
+[23:23] The show itself has an oxymoronic freaking name, today tonight. It's a dumb name for a show. Only, only, you know, I don't understand, like, unless you're a listener, in which case, producers, I love you or love your show, have me on. Uh but the basically it's bait it's saying that like some of the quotes that are absurd to anyone who's ever used meat glue before are um even an expert can't tell that something's been glued together with meat glue. And anyone who's ever looked at a piece of meat uh before in their lives can tell the difference between a bunch of scraps glued together and foist it off as a whole cut of meat and uh and one that's been, you know, that it's a real honest to God muscle.
+
+[23:58] So I think they're making a kind of tempest in a teapot about a problem that doesn't really exist. And they're also saying how it's a bacterial nightmare. Well, because when you're using meat glue, one of the things you have to be really careful of is that you're taking and you're putting um things that are possibly contaminated with bacteria on the inside of your meat, which before you thought was relatively sterile. Uh but the trick with that is is it's not it's not that that's unmanageable, it's just knowing that's what you're doing. And anyone who's properly trained using meat glue knows that they have to kill that bacteria that they put on the inside.
+
+[24:27] So I encourage all of the listeners of this to go around, find these blog posts with these morons who think they they also say, it's banned in the EU. Well, it's not banned in the EU. Thrombin-based meat glue is banned in the EU, not transglutaminase, which is from an enzyme. Thrombin's a blood clotting factor that's used as a meat was used as a meat glue is banned in the EU. And it was banned in the meat in the EU for dumb, dumb reasons.
+
+[24:50] It was banned because the morons who are doing the legislation couldn't think of a valid use for it because they're not cooks. This is another problem of a non-cook. And they saw too much of a problem where you might do something fraudulent, and so they banned the use of that, but didn't ban the use of the other one, which is more prevalent. The thing that makes me really angry about this is that it's so easy to bind together meats with crappy binding agents like carrageenin and like the way they make dog food. Everyone, when they see a bound piece of meat, thinks it's been bound with meat glue.
+
+[25:19] Meat glue is actually an expensive and nice way to bind things together without the use of a lot of fillers and gelling agents, which is how people can rip you off if they really feel like they're gonna rip you off anyway. So go out there and smack these people upside the head with some knowledge because they need it. Okay, sorry. Okay. And from Australia, this is from James.
+
+[25:38] Hey guys, greetings from Australia. I'm assuming James is not a member of the Australia Today Tonight show. Hopefully. Hopefully not. He's been enjoying the blog for a while, so it's probably not, and getting into the podcast.
+
+[25:48] So it's he has a question for the show. He's been struggling with oven spring in uh his bread for two years and he's stumped. So far, I'm gonna be him now. So far, I've managed to work my way through every single problem apart from the uh vexatious side bust out. So when he's cooking it uh the oven spring, what's happening is instead of going along where he slices the bread, he's getting a burst in the seam along uh along the bottom of the bread and splitting it on the bottom, which is not what he wants to have happen.
+
+[26:10] And he's tried uh all the different kinds of uh things you can try, varying his different hydrations from 60 to 85% using autolysis, which is a process where you start the uh the the mixing of the flour, knead it a little bit, let it rest for a while, and then and then meat it again. Uh mixing different batters, making different kinds of starters, different kinds of hydrate uh hydration, different kinds of mixing, different kinds of flowers, etc. etc. different kinds of form uh salt ratios, different kinds of risings, different proofing levels, different baking, yada yada yada. So he's wondering what the heck is going on.
+
+[26:44] Uh and so he says that sometimes he now uses a different uh steam technique where he it's called steam via ice, where every everyone who bakes bread knows that that steam formation from for many types of bread, steam formation in the very beginning of bread baking is extremely important. And so he's been trying uh one of the ways that you throw ice in, and it gives you a constant rate of steam because the oven can't evapor can't melt and evaporate at all quickly enough, so you have a steam that lasts a little while, whereas if you just throw water in, a very well-vented uh home oven will just obliterate the steam, and you're not gonna get enough steam. So he wants to know uh what to do. Well, uh I was gonna say that most times when you get a bad burst in the bottom, it's actually because you're using um you're not doing a good enough forming technique, assuming that everything else is okay, you're not like giving a good skin to it when you're forming it around. But you say you've tried that.
+
+[27:29] Um so I would go, I I you know when I have a question, I don't know whether the Brit baking community respects them, but I like going to the fresh loaf, which is a blog, uh, which is pretty interesting. And also there's a kind of a nut, and I appreciate nuts. Um there's a guy um named uh uh Steve B, and I forget what his uh what his uh blog is, but you can find him Steve B, and he he experimented with a lot of crazy stuff, and he found a steamer uh that is I for I also forget the name of the of the company that manufactures the steamer, but it's basically what you do is you take a hotel pan, you drill a hole in it, you put it over your bread as soon as as soon as you put it on your stone, and then you you you take and you rig up a garment steamer with a nozzle and you pipe steam into the hotel pan for like 20 or 30 seconds and then put it in the oven, and then a couple minutes later take it off, and that more closely mimics the steam that you're gonna get out of an oven. And I have never used it, but it looks really interesting, something you might want to try. And so, and there's a couple of people on the web now experimenting with these, like handheld steamers and hotel pants, upturned hotel pans.
+
+[28:30] So, um, I mean, I wish it was still wintertime. I mean, it kind of still feels like it, but uh, I wish it was because it's hard for me to do a lot of uh baking in the because my oven is gets like mighty hot, mighty, mighty, mighty hot. In addition, though, I'm curious about like what the actual mechanism of steam is because it seems kind of confused. People say multiple things that like I'm gonna have to do more research on the actual everyone knows that steam at the beginning helps the crust formation, everyone. But a lot of the scientific explanation seems kind of bogus, and I started reading some of the documentation this morning, but I didn't have time, so maybe that's something we'll deal with later on on a different uh on a different who's ewats it.
+
+[29:03] Alright. So, why don't we then take our second commercial break? And while we're going to it, why don't you remember to call in too? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:25] Oh, could you help me please this call? See the number on the matchbook is old and fade out. Living in LA with my best old exprint rake. Gosh, it's such a new one and sometimes ADL. Isn't it doing these days go?
+
+[29:57] Let's poke it all up and give me the noble if you can't find it, so I can call it a couple of things. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to the Speakeasy every Wednesday at 3 p.m. where host Damon Bolti will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid universe. With guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between.
+
+[30:27] Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, bar history, distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. You know, Jim Croce is visiting hell on that operator. Operator's just trying to do her job.
+
+[30:46] You know, and he's talking about his best old ex-friend Ray, who I admit is a jerk for running away with this woman. Or maybe the woman ran away with him. Well, it takes two to tango. Takes two to tango. Dear old best best old ex-friend, what is it?
+
+[30:58] Best old ex, yeah. Bad man. Jerk. Anyway. So uh so uh I have good news that I actually did something I said I was gonna do, and I ordered an Aero Press coffee, so I can finally say what I personally think about the Aero Press coffee.
+
+[31:13] We've talked about it a million times on the air. It only costs 24.95, so I ordered it on Amazon. And it makes a perfectly fine cup of coffee. Uh I might use it now as my as my take in my bat bag uh coffee maker, but here's what it doesn't make espresso. That's it.
+
+[31:28] It doesn't make espresso. But on an interesting note, coffee thing, I learned something recently that there's this thing called Cup of Excellence. Have you heard of this? No. Cup of Excellence.
+
+[31:38] So what they do is they get all these people from every different country. Every different country has its own cup of excellence. Uh a lot of coffee producing countries. And there's a huge competition where they're they're cupped again and again and again, and then the winner, and they're all these small lots are auctioned off, and someone has to buy the whole auction. So for instance, Dallas Brothers, who is one of the sponsors of the museum thing, we did the Latte uh art judging contest, gave me a bag of Rwanda's 2010 uh Copacama uh co-op Cup of Excellence coffee.
+
+[32:06] And uh it sells for a lot more than regular coffee. It's like $30 a pound green. Green, green, wholesale green. Uh and uh it was very, very good. Cup of excellence.
+
+[32:17] Go to to check it out, go to cup of excellence.org. Anyway, uh, so I thought that was interesting. No. No? No.
+
+[32:23] Yes, that's no. Moderately interesting. All right. You still have about 25 seconds, because I got two more questions to answer. To call in your questions to 718497, 2128.
+
+[32:30] That's 7184972128. Okay. Colin, good old Colin. Oh boy. What?
+
+[32:36] This isn't not he said specifically, uh, this has been a cuss-free question. Yeah, but it's also a controversial question. It is? Alright, well, let's read it. No, it's not actually weed, it's seaweed.
+
+[32:47] Nastasha only I read the first sentence and then I forward it at 6 a.m. today. Yes. That's what happened. That's what happens.
+
+[32:53] So she's like, oh my god, he's talking about weed. Seaweed. You know, with Colin, nothing is like what it seems. Uh in honor of the this is Colin speaking. In honor of the upcoming 420 holiday, although 420 is a holiday for me, it's my wife's birthday, but Easter is is actually Nastasha's birthday, which is 424.
+
+[33:10] Well, Jesus when he rose from the dead. Yeah, anyway, so yeah, so this year, Nastasha gets Easter. I've had Easter on my birthday before. Yeah, Jen's had Easter on her birthday before. One of those crazy ones.
+
+[33:24] Anyway, Colin has a question that pertains to weed. Uh, and of course, is there some sort of uh uh cannabis related holiday? 420 is the Jack, you know more. Wow. Oh.
+
+[33:39] So it's not Easter, it's some holiday that uh that us old fogies aren't familiar with? It's been around forever. Alright, whatever. Uh Colin has a question about weed. Of course, I'm not really interested in cannabis.
+
+[33:51] Of course you're not. Uh it's seaweed that catches your fan uh his fancy. Seaweed's uh salad is uh uh is freaking awesome with its Aldante crunch and ubiquitous sesame dressing. Since I don't speak Chinese, I guess or Japanese, I've been able to track I haven't been able to track down good uh weed to use in a salad. I see the fresh stuff in some Asian groceries, but the sections near the sea cucumbers where nobody bothers labeling stuff in English.
+
+[34:13] A project I've been sitting on for a few years is to try cultivating seaweeds in order to have fresh unlimited supply of weed. I just saw uh on McGee's uh On Food and Cooking that says Wakame Kambu and sea lettuce are commonly used in salads. Uh and so he wants to know if I have any tips uh what you should look for in market or what species make a good salad, any tips on prep, and have I, and since I've used saltwater aquarium before or made them, can do I have any tips on sourcing and growing some hydroponic weed. Okay. The problem is that a lot of the seaweeds that you use are too big to basically uh to basically grow in a normal situation, although things like wakame are and and you know, kelp and all these things are routinely farmed.
+
+[34:49] I mean, that's how they do it. Like you very rarely get wild anything anymore, but it's just they're so big that it's hard, it's hard to do. You can gather your own on the coast, which I've done a bunch of times with limited success. Unfortunately, I haven't done any research uh recently. Back in the day, the the book that you know that everyone had was called Cooking with Sea Vegetables by Sharon Ann Rhodes.
+
+[35:09] Unfortunately, it's kind of like, and this is nothing against anyone, it's kind of hippie dip, and I'm much more into like straight up, you know, killer information and like pictures, and this was looks like it was written in the 70s or 80s, and I've had it probably, you know, since forever, and it's like all black and white, and it's not really up to date. Someone needs to tell me if there's an up-to-date new uh new seaweed book. But how you use a seaweed depends a lot on what oh, if you want a good website, it's interesting. Uh the person who made it apparently doesn't want you to find it because it's very hard to find, but it's Seaweeds of the Pacific North Northwest by uh Brianna Gutschmidt, and her the website I don't have here the name of it, but she has uh Pendiva forward slash seaweed or something like that. But she has good pictures of all different seaweeds that you can get in the Pacific Northwest and how they taste because she ate them.
+
+[35:58] Cool. Which is pretty cool. So she has a good list. I recommend you uh you go to that. But Pendiva.com slash seaweed.
+
+[36:04] Wow, Jack's the best. Yeah. Anyway, keep it. He's on top, especially because you called him out. I know, I know that's good.
+
+[36:09] It's not right. It's not right. So not right. Um so anyway, I suggest you collect your own. I've done it.
+
+[36:15] Some people suggest against collecting your own because once uh seaweeds have been ripped off of their rocks, you don't know how cal long they've been batting around in the ocean, and therefore there might be they might be I don't know, rotting or something like that. But I've never died so far from collecting uh wild seaweed. Oh, by the way, going back, one thing you can raise in your aquarium by the uh is uh certain varieties of uh sea lettuce, green laver you can raise uh raise in an aquarium. Uh it's gonna be an expensive proposition, but you you should try it. And knowing you, you probably will, so you should probably give that give that a shot.
+
+[36:45] Um I think how you treat it depends on what it is. So, for instance, even something like combo, uh we use it in a salad after we've used it to cure and cook a duck. So, like Nils would have this old recipe where he would wrap a duck breast in combucks combucur current curing that is awesome, right? And then after we cooked it, we'd peel it off and then we'd slice it finely, and then you could eat it, and it was really crunchy. Same thing with makame.
+
+[37:08] If you don't over soak it, right, it's still got a little bit of crunch, you slice it thin, and then you can have it as a nice as a nice salad. So how you use the seaweed is gonna really depend on what state you get it in. You're gonna have to refresh it. Um and uh you know, you gotta usually it's dried, so you're gonna have to refresh it. If you get it fresh, I would just here's what I would do in general.
+
+[37:26] If you see something in that in that market, just buy the hell out of everything. Just buy every damn thing and then taste it, and then uh, you know, just try to compare pictures on the internet to what you can find. Because there's a relatively few number of ones that are commercially sold. You know, you know, your rokame, hijiki, uh, Arame, uh you know, lavers, nories, uh, different types of kelps. So you should be able to do a mix and match and then remember the characters' uh names.
+
+[37:49] I remember once I went to Chinatown looking for pigs bladder, which is legal to get in the US. And what I did is I went on uh I went on Google and translated pig's bladder into uh into Mandarin and then printed the characters out and then drew a picture of a pig with its bladder and then pointed to it. And I think I got my point across because they were laughing their their butts off, but they didn't give it to me, apparently, because it's illegal here. Alright. So, uh since we don't appear to get any more clothes, I will our last story for the day will be what we're gonna do tomorrow.
+
+[38:17] Yeah. We're gonna tomorrow uh eater. Really early. Yeah, it's a little too early for a burger, frankly. But eater is going to come to my house because I no longer have a kitchen anywhere.
+
+[38:28] We don't have a kitchen in Brooklyn yet, and I don't have a kitchen in uh the FCI anymore. Uh so since I'm kitchenless, I'll be cooking it in my house, which actually is a pretty I mean I have a sweet kitchen. Mm-hmm. No? Sweet kitchen.
+
+[38:40] Anyway. Um so uh we're we're supposed to do our version of the ultimate burger. Now the problem is that so many people have done their versions of the ultimate burger, right? You have the modernist cuisine version of the ultimate burger, which involves uh a lot of steps. And you, you know, they they cook their their burger for actually for a long time.
+
+[38:57] I'm not a fan of cooking a hamburger for as long as as they are. I'm not saying I'm not a fan, but it's not for me, because like certain types of meat can take on a kind of gamey livery note that I don't really that's not for me in a burger. Like for me, like the longest I'm gonna want to cook a burger is probably about four hours. That's about it. Uh not tomorrow because I'm not waking up that early to cook a burger anyway.
+
+[39:17] Anyway, so like you know, I also don't uh like vacuum packing burgers down because I think they get too kind of smashed. So I'm a fan, the way I like to do it is to take the the meat mixture and give it a quick fry to set it and then put it. I'm gonna grind bacon uh into it though. Okay. That's delicious, right?
+
+[39:35] I was thinking I'm I was gonna use a combination of short rib, chuck, and bacon, right? Grind it. I like a real loose pack and relatively thick and then uh fried uh quickly just to keep the surface uh intact. Then I'm going to uh put it into probably butter or maybe a maybe like a uh like a butter that's been mounted almost like a burblanc with uh with some some hyper reduced beef stock. I haven't decided yet.
+
+[39:58] Uh and then, because my wife, right? My my wife's birthday tomorrow, so I really shouldn't be doing this. It's my wife's birthday. Because you already did this. On her birthday.
+
+[40:05] Yeah, yeah, but listen, she's not gonna be there, it's gonna be in the morning. My wife is flying to Boston tomorrow, so I have all day to fix whatever I do, right? Get a new place. I'm not gonna get a come on, the place is fireproof. Anyways, I'm gonna get uh I'm gonna light uh because this is the best way to finish a burger off, right?
+
+[40:19] I'm gonna cook it in butter in a bag at about 55 degrees for a couple of hours. Then I'm gonna pull this sucker out, and then I'm gonna build a small bed of hardwood coals on the inside of my house under my hood in the mini Weber that I have. I'm gonna build the temperature up till it's about the temperature of the surface of the sun such that it's basically melting the Weber into my into my stove. I thought that's my Weber. Uh well, I let you have it.
+
+[40:42] You never took it home. It I bought it and was never reimbursed for it. So yes, I gave it to you, and I'm gonna use it one more time before you take it. You've had a year and a half or more to take it to your house, and you never have. I've moved it like three times.
+
+[40:55] Yeah, yes, you definitely have cooking issues. So anyway, I'm gonna fire it up in my in my house, and I'm gonna grill uh like hyper-grill it basically on the surface of the coal to put a nice crust on it. And then I'm gonna do my favorite bun. And here's my favorite bun. It's it's uh um sesame?
+
+[41:10] No, uh close. Uh beef on wheck style from Buffalo. It's gonna be caraway seed and salt on English muffin, homemade English muffin, and I think just regular cheese. I think just regular cheese. What?
+
+[41:22] Like American cheese? Uh something. I don't know. Maybe gre like grier. Mm-hmm.
+
+[41:26] I think grière. And then uh, and then I'm probably like uh the modernist cuisine do a really cool thing where they they take and they they flash infuse a uh uh tomato with uh like a vinaigrette or something like that, which is a really good idea. But since it's not tomato season, I can't get a decent tomato, I might just use pickled green tomatoes. Do the pickle and the tomato at the same time. I like fresh onions, so I'm gonna put some fresh onion on it.
+
+[41:47] Nastasha giving me the give me the stink face. I like grilled onions. Grilled onions, but this I have a freaking grill there. But I don't like uh I don't like to me, okay. This is a matter of personal opinion.
+
+[41:56] We can grill some onions for you, but the to me, a grilled onion is in between. It's not a sauteed uh onion, and it's not uh any it's this in-between crap. Raw onions give me nightmares. What do you mean? Like really?
+
+[42:07] Like how so? Why? I don't know. My mom told me. Well, wow.
+
+[42:12] Okay, well, the I'm gonna leave everyone out there with the image of Nastasha having onion nightmares, and uh come back next week for cooking issues where hopefully we can discuss some of these onion nightmares. Cooking issues! Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes store.
+
+[42:47] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with the Do Something Real Film Festival. A collection of six provocative character-driven films focused on food, environmental issues, and everyday people with a greater vision. Come see one of the six features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m.
+
+[43:19] Learn more about the films and special events at www.do something real.com. That's www.do something r-e-e-l.com. Sponsored by Whole Foods Market. In 2010, Escapemaker.com won an Emmy Award for their agro tourism web episode. So this year they thought, why not bring agri-tourism and green getaway ideas right to you?
+
+[43:47] Come to the Green Getaways Local Food and Travel expo on April 30th at One Handson Place, home of the Brooklyn Flea and former Williamsburg Savings Bank. Presented by Amtrak, Zipcar, and I Love New York, the Carbon-free event will be a day filled with food, prizes, workshops, and kids' activities. Over 50 getaway destinations, from counties to local farms and bed and breakfast within a day's drive or train ride of New York City will be exhibiting on the main floor and in the huge bank vault downstairs. See what's hot and sustainable travel and receive special show-only discounts. Grow NYC will be doing workshops on the Green Market, and Appalachian Mountain Club will offer workshops on adventure bicycling and hiking via MASH Transit.
+
+[44:26] Escapemaker.com will be giving away over 50 getaway prizes, ranging from Zipline Adventure Passes to an overnight stay at Mohank Mountain House. Travel greener, eat local. Come to the expo on April 30th. Get your tickets now at www.escapemaker.com. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market.
+
+[44:47] What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The Fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high-quality honey at an amazing value with the Fairway stamp of approval.
+
+[45:05] And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels. It's a no-brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The Fairway label Honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do.
+
+[0:14] This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey at an amazing value with the Fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels. It's a no brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
+
+[0:44] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday. I'm joined here in the station today with uh, of course, Nastasha De Hammer Lopez and Cooking Issues' own webmaster and friend Jerry Lavish. Hello, Jerry.
+
+[1:01] Hey Dave. How are you doing? Hey Nastasha. Hi David. Busy texting your buddies?
+
+[1:05] Too busy to do a radio show, are you, Nastasha? Alright. Call in all of your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 with any and all of your cooking or non related cooking questions. So before we start, I'm gonna address a little blog business for those of you that go read the blog and I encourage it, even though I haven't been posting as regularly as I should have.
+
+[1:25] I have like 15 posts that I I need to write. And I need to uh get the ability to just jot off like a couple hundred words uh hit and hit post, but so far I haven't been able to to do that as much as everyone in the world tells me I should, right? Right. I for some reason I just can't do it. Anyway, uh so one of the things is Cooking Issues has a forum section that has apparently been overrun.
+
+[1:53] I'm putting Jerry on the spot here, but uh has been overrun by spam, and we are actually attempting to solve this problem, right, Jerry? It's actually solved. It's solved. See how little I know? It's been solved.
+
+[2:03] So Barzellet and all the rest out there, please come back. We love you, and we want that stuff to survive and flourish. So we have uh I guess who's running it now? You are running it and uh and also Vicky is running it, Victoria, or it's just it's just Jerry. Jerry's the man.
+
+[2:19] Jerry is uh a new father, a uh computer consultant extraordinaire, and we force him to do our blog work on the side. Uh Jack, is that a caller I heard coming in? Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hi. Hey.
+
+[2:33] Uh my question is uh fairly simple. I make pizza dough, and every time I do it, it seems to shrink when I try to roll it out. Hmm. Me well give me your exact procedure. I just make a regular dough, use a uh Kitchen aid usually.
+
+[2:49] Right. Um, food processor with the dough hook and uh a little rest and stuff arise. How long is the rest of it? And then when I go to roll it out, it uh you know, rolls out pretty good, but as soon as you I pull back with the uh rolling pin, it sort of snakes back into a smaller piece. Yeah, the first thing I'd look at is uh your the dough is probably fairly stiff.
+
+[3:11] I would move to a uh higher hydration, more more water in the dough probably is gonna help you. And I don't know like I'll give I'll I'll tell you this. I'll give you another thing is I would move away if you can from using a rolling pin. I find that to me it negatively affects the texture of uh of the pizza. It's g uh uh to me the texture is much better when it's kind of you don't have to be able to t flip it in the air like you know, like uh like a but you know, basically using your fist and stretching it uh is helpful to me.
+
+[3:37] I always liberally flower it before I um before I start, you know, pulling it out. Uh but I'll tell you my procedure in it in a nutshell and see if this helps. I use a fairly I don't use as high a hydration dough as the as the Naples sty style guys. I'm somewhere usually in the in the area of like uh 70, 75%, which is too stiff for real p pizza aficionados, but that's kind of what I do. I use a fairly high protein flour.
+
+[4:01] And so for every thousand grams of flour, I'll have in it roughly 700 grams of uh of water or seven hundred and fifty grams of water in that range, uh seven, seven fifty. And uh a little bit of yeast, and I allow it to do a very, very long initial rise. And another another thing, it's even more important than the kneading is is if uh to really good way to get texture is to make the dough uh the night before, break it into your pizza size uh chunks and then throw them into quart containers covered in your fridge. It's called retarding the dough. That's also going to improve your dough texture and flavor by allowing the yeast to act on it longer, but you have to use a smaller amount of yeast.
+
+[4:36] So for your t your texture rolling back, I would say one of the main things is is if you stretch it out, it won't pull back as much. There's always going to be a certain amount of snap back, but when you roll it, I think it's gonna snap back even more. Is this making any sense or is this not useful at all? Well, until I try it. Uh no, parts of it makes sense.
+
+[4:54] Um my general procedure, I start off with uh you know the sponge is pretty wet and as I'm uh kneading it, I I continue to add flour until basically it's sticky but it's not um or it's tacky but not sticky. Right. That sounds like a posted note sort of stickiness. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. By endpoint.
+
+[5:13] All right. Uh when I try to do it, uh I mean I'm not sure what it was uh you know, just try to push it on the board to sort of make a disc and let it hang and thin it out that way. Uh I find that works pretty good until I lay it down flat and then it, you know, it's like you know, elastic on uh your underwear sort of shrinks back in real fast. I mean I uh maybe you're not proofing it out uh enough. Uh maybe you gotta let it rise a little longer.
+
+[5:37] You always are gonna get a little bit of a little bit of uh a snap back. Have you done you can you pull a window on it? Have you done the window test? Is it stretched really well or is it? I can get a gluten window without any problems.
+
+[5:47] Yeah, so it sounds like your dough is is okay. It's maybe, you know, o over stretch it uh a little bit, a little bit thinner before you drop it, because uh invariably I get some snapback, but I don't get like rubber bandy snapbacks. Is the dough warm or cold? When you rest it, do you rest it at room temperature or do you resting it in the fridge? It's at room temperature, yeah.
+
+[6:05] Yeah. I mean, um and like I usually make enough so that I wind up uh dividing it up and and freezing parts of it. And then I thawed out in the refrigerator next day I let it come to room temperature uh in the room and it does it's does the same stuff. You let it do its actual second like it's it's proof out in the room, so it's actually rising and it's and it's dead at room temperature, not cold at all when you when you do it. Because if it's if it's cold at all, it will snap back.
+
+[6:28] Uh this is interesting. You know, if you here's a technique that no one no one say I do this, all right? No one's gonna say I do this. But um when I make pizza, I usually am making eight fairly large ones at a time, and I don't want to make them to order. So what I'll do is I'll actually I'll use a very minimal amount of flour just enough to get it on my fist so I can pull it out into shape, and then I throw it onto a piece of parchment paper.
+
+[6:50] It'll semi the pizza will semi-stick to the parchment paper because it's it it's you know, I haven't floured the parchment at all. So the dough will kind of stick to the parchment a little bit, which prevents any contraction. I'll then make my pizza on the parchment and I'll shove the parchment entirely with the pizza onto the stone for the first thirty-five, forty seconds up to a minute of baking, depending on how hot my oven is. Just until the bottom forms a crust and releases from the parchment. Then I'll quickly shove my peel and pull the parchment out and finish the bake out on it.
+
+[7:14] A couple of advantages of this. One, I think I'll solve your snap back problem with it. Two, um you can make a bunch of pizzas and put them on sheet trays and stack them up in your kitchen ready to bake, so you're not making pizzas every time you have to throw them into the oven. Um and so to me, those are huge advantages. The one thing you have to be careful of, especially because my oven goes up to 850 degrees, is the burning of the paper.
+
+[7:40] So what you have to do is after you put the pizza down, uh even after you do the sauce and and whatever, is to trim around the dough with scissors such that there's very little pizza overhanging the edge, and that'll prevent you from getting a lot of scorching or or uh or or burn marks on the on the paper. And then remember to just get it out of the oven, you know, after after it unsticks. So in my oven that's 45 seconds or so. Uh in your oven, maybe longer. I don't know how hot your oven gets.
+
+[8:05] Yeah, I I I it's about 525, you know, when I'm using it. Yeah, so you could let it go a little longer, but maybe that would help too, and also solve the problem of uh having to stand around in the kitchen the entire time your family's eating pizzas. Well, it's only two of us, so it's not a problem there. Yeah, yeah. For me, it's like always like 14 people, and so I mean, you know, it's it's a nightmare to make them, you know, as they go in, it just it just crunches me up.
+
+[8:25] But anyway, give that a shot, see if that helps out. Yeah, I'm just using AP flour, is that okay? Or should I be changing my flour? I mean, uh look, I've heard people make with all different uh hardnesses of flour, and I think obviously your hydration is gonna change a little bit, but I you know the my favorite pizzas uh that I make are made with uh surgalahad, which is a fairly high protein, like but really good, other than just the protein quality, just a really well milled nice flour from King Arthur, but it's not unfortunately generally available. When I'm making it at home, I you use uh heckers, which is a fairly their AP is a fairly high protein AP.
+
+[9:00] I wouldn't use like a southern style really soft AP if you're using like a good northern style AP um yeah that's a little bit harder uh I think it's okay or you can use the better for bread stuff that uh but I never use the the King Arthur's better for bread I either use their surgala hat or I use heckers. What about like Capanata Zero double zero? I've never used it I've never bought it. Um do you like it for pizza? Yeah.
+
+[9:20] Yeah I mean a lot of people are very particular on it but like you know uh I I'm I'm lazier than I seem and I seem pretty lazy. Coast where we have different flowers. Yeah you don't well see you're on the West Coast? Yeah yeah I mean I'm sure you have some really really good flowers out there. You have that real that artisanal mill whose name is flown out of my head for some reason in San Francisco.
+
+[9:39] You can also go to King Arthur the website. Yeah no they'll sell gr Sergalahat over the website and that makes a great great dough but it might be prohibitively expensive to ship it you know on a batch per batch basis. But if you make a lot of if you make a lot of pizza I know they sell 50 pound sacks that's how we get it but anyway I hope that how about the the the paper sounds like a good idea though right give that a shot next time around. Great thanks. Remember parchment not wax.
+
+[10:01] Alright thanks a lot for calling in okay bye all right uh okay we had an interesting comment in on the uh I'm extremely fascinated with this uh uh irradiation of seeds thing and it turns out there are other people fashioned uh fascinated with too so it turns out that after we dropped uh the you know the bomb um in World War II I think horribly especially the second one uh we then went on to do a whole series of nuclear weapons tests in uh in the air atmosphere underground underwater in the uh 50s and 60s, uh, which make for some amazing viewing, by the way. If you've ever seen the videos of them, it's just I mean a completely compelling awesome spectacle. Horrible idea, but completely compelling, awesome spectacle. So one of the things they did was they irradiated uh seeds, and the the reason they irradiated them was to see whether or not we could re germinate our seeds after we had been hit with a nuclear weapon, right? Now are our seed store stores gonna be obliterated, or the three people that survived the war, if they happen to have some corn with them, can they grow it again?
+
+[11:03] Okay. So that's uh, you know, that that was kind of the testing, but they found out they got some interesting mutations from this, and they started purposely irradiating uh seeds in an attempt to find seeds and uh shoots and and leaves and plants in general, because you can also get mutations on the branch of things, so called sports, right? And fruits. So um they were trying to get new varieties to find a peaceful way to use uh nuclear radiation. Uh and this spawned an entire movement.
+
+[11:28] Now I'm fascinated with it, but I don't really know that much about it. And we got a tip off from uh Tom Metcalf, our listener Tom Metcalf, who uh tipped us off to another person who seems extremely interesting. I've never met her, Paige Johnson, who's a a garden historian, and she has a blog called Garden History Girl dot blogspot.com. I never liked that blog dot blog spot sounds so weird. Black black black spot.
+
+[11:51] Anyway, she is apparently, and apparently from reading it, like one of the world's experts on nuclear uh on atomic gardens. She calls them atomic gardens. So I encourage you to read everything she's written on it. She's gonna write a book on it, and if you happen to be in London on the 7th of June, she's gonna give a speech on it at some uh like Royal Horticultural Society who ha thing of a day. And I wish I was in London because I'd love to go.
+
+[12:11] It turns out we used to do we used to have these things called atomic gardens. Here's what they would do, right? They would stick a uh a pipe into the ground uh full of like, you know, some some horrible, you know, gamma radiation, uh, you know, some radioactive element with again to cobalt something, I think. Uh they would sink it into the earth, um uh into a lead enclosure so that you could go look at the garden, and the garden was arranged in concentric circles around the radiation source, and then as soon as you walked out with your Geiger counters after you collected your irradiated stuff, they would raise the radiation source back up and start nuking out the uh the produce again. And there's pictures of them online, amazing stuff.
+
+[12:49] Anyway, so uh thanks Tom for that up update, and we're sure to hear more about atomic gardens. Man, I wish I could go see that speech. And you could also uh go to the wedding. In uh oh the well is that the seventh? Is that the same time?
+
+[13:02] He doesn't care. Yeah, you know, people keep saying though the wedding. I'm like, I know someone that's getting married. No, it's like but does it but do people really care about this royal wedding? Unfortunately, yes.
+
+[13:11] More so than the than the die and uh Charles thing? No, come on, right? Anyway. It's a natural extension. This is not the this is not the Royal Wedding show.
+
+[13:18] If you're this is the Royal Wedding version 2.0. If you if you tuned in to listen to uh to information about the Royal Wedding and whether or not What's her fang has gone into an anorexic friendly frenzy as a result of all the cameras on her, you've turned it in the wrong place. I'm I'm I'm saying this like this is like what people tell me. I don't, you know, I wish that my television was in good working order, but I no longer have cable because I told my wife she could cancel cable if I could do X, Y, and Z, never thinking she would actually pick up the phone and cancel cable. So I am cabless, I know nothing.
+
+[13:47] Thank goodness about any of this. It's gonna be on regular. But wait, you have an iPad. Yeah, but I don't you can't stream the news that I can. Not the news that I used to watch.
+
+[13:55] No, no. Anyway, but this is also not the does Dave Arnold know what's going on in the world program? This is only about well, not only about cooking. Anyway, call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128 committed. Wow, 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[14:38] Very superstitious. Right hand on the wall. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune into Hot Grease every Monday at 3 30 p.m. Hot Grease strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward-thinking schools of culinary thought to the minds and kitchens of everyday folk.
+
+[15:30] Each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum of food enthusiasts, from internationally renowned culinary masters to moms on a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 330 p.m. Hot Grease on the Heritage Radio Network. My favorite title of any program here on the Heritage Radio Network, Hot Grease. Love it.
+
+[15:54] Isn't that the best title ever? Mm-hmm. I wish we could come up with a company name as good as Hot Grease. Awesome. Hot Grease.
+
+[16:00] Anyway, call in all your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Alright, so we have an interesting question in from Paul. Paul says, uh, hi. Hi.
+
+[16:11] I'm Jewish, and we're currently celebrating Passover. The first night of Passover com um comprises a Seder night, a big family meal with many readings, songs, and central to this question, symbolic foods. Yes, this is a this is true. Uh one of the many symbolic foods that appears uh on the central Seder plate is a roasted slash burned egg in its shell, which represents the Passover sacrifice from thousands of years ago. Preparing it is a royal pain in the blank blank blank as it has a tendency to explode and create a smelly mess.
+
+[16:36] In the past I've roasted it in the oven raw, and this year I first boiled it, then roasted it. Both times it exploded. I then tried making a s which is a nightmare. I then tried making a small crack in the shell, and this did not work either. Do you have any suggestions as to how one could do this reliably without having a huge cleanup job afterwards?
+
+[16:53] Cheers, Paul. Interesting question. Uh for me, especially for several reasons. One, I used to uh when you're in college, I found a microwave, and uh they threw it away because uh the cord had been uh you know broken and they didn't know how to fix it. So I just fixed the cord.
+
+[17:07] It was a zero dollar fix, and I had that's how I had my microwave in college, right? I didn't really use it to cook food. We used it to see what we could blow up in a microwave, right? So of course we did all the stuff that's now since become commonplace, marshmallows, CDs, which are awesome for about like one like half a second, and they form like like lightning fingers like the emperor is zapping you from uh Star Wars. Uh, you know, the the grape trick, uh light bulbs were always the best.
+
+[17:32] I'm we found a a case and a half of light bulbs, and I must have blown up the entire case and a half. 300 watt light bulbs are freaking amazing because they light up for a long time before they uh heat up the envelope of the glass and then explode. One time actually I had one blow up such that it didn't shatter, it just blew a hole in the side of a glass so it looked like one of those high speed photographs. Can't believe I lost that. Anyway, uh one of the fun things to blow up in a microwave is an egg.
+
+[17:55] The problem with an egg is that it doesn't reliably explode in the microwave when you nuke it. And you can nuke it for like like three or four minutes, and just when you think it's not gonna blow up, you walk up to turn off the microwave and bam, she blows up. And I have to tell you, it is extremely impressive, and there's no piece in there bigger than your pinky. And yes, Paul, it picky pinky, you know, nail that is. And yes, Paul, it does smell god awful.
+
+[18:16] So I feel for you. However, I have roasted eggs in the oven many times without them exploding. Uh, and I haven't done any particular prep work on them. And I'll I'll I'll tell you what w w why and what. So um uh Hervé Tees, uh, you know, uh a person that we like to make fun of here uh on in on cooking issues, he's a French dude uh who you know talks about he's the guy who keeps saying molecular gastronomy is a good term, no matter how much we tell him that that term is kind of disgusting sounding.
+
+[18:44] Anyway, it's his philosophy, his feeling anyway, that a 60 uh five degrees Celsius uh egg has a perfect runny yolk in it because he cooks them in the oven. Uh right. Anyone who has a circulator out there, anyone out there in circulator land knows that a 62 degree egg is runny and a 63 degree egg is set. Uh a 65 degree egg is most certainly not runny in the center. And is this may sound like a crazy like angels dancing on the head of a pin for people who don't cook using circulators and low temperature, but this is this is like I don't know, I don't know what it's the equivalent of.
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+[19:13] It's uh I don't know, it's it's crazy. It's just nuts. Yeah, bingo. It's like yeah, no, it's like cooking a cake in like a pizza oven at like eight eight hundred or like or like uh or like deep frying water. The only person I know who does that is Alexander Tat Talbot using uh methyl cellules.
+
+[19:28] Anywho, so uh it's crazy. But uh to the reason why it doesn't work is because you get evaporative cooling off of the egg when he puts it into his because he does it in an oven at 65, and as it's evaporating off, the temperature in the egg drops and it's actually only 62 inside the egg, which is why it works for him, even though it's theoretically flawed technique. So to prove and test this, I cooked a bunch of eggs in the oven at a fairly low temperature though, at like, you know, uh 250, 300, 325 in that range. Fahrenheit now. We're back on Fahrenheit.
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+[19:54] God's God's way to bake. Anyway, so excuse me, all you Celsius people. Anyway, uh don't worry, I cook meat in Celsius. So uh it's interesting is you can look at the eggs. If the eggs don't have marks on the shell from where uh water is evaporating out, and you can see them because they'll develop little brown spots uh on the egg where the stuff's evaporating off.
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+[20:14] Because as water evaporates out of the uh out of the shell, out of the egg itself, it undergoes myard reactions at a very low temperature, like similar to the way they would if you cook them in a pressure cooker, or if you did Hamean eggs by putting them in a pot and letting them cook overnight in a bread oven to eat uh you know for your uh for your Sabbath meal on Saturday night, right? So they should turn brown, right, in the shell, even without burning, right? Which is amazing. And uh but if you don't notice little um little bits of water or pinhole brown marks all around the egg shell, it means that that egg shell is sealed. So maybe your eggs are coated with something like wax, or maybe you have a really I use typically use crappy supermarket eggs that break really easily.
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+[20:53] Maybe you have uh like a free-range egg that is really like has a really good shell. Like I know uh Wiley Dufresne right now is doing an egg and he's using some really fancy eggs with really happy chickens. Those happy chickens have very thick shells, so he's having a really pain in the butt problem uh shelling them all. Um so I don't know what temperature you're running at, Paul, but try running at a sl a lower temperature, it's still gonna turn brown even at 350 or 325 because the Myard reaction is going to be happening at those low temperatures. So don't worry about having those temperatures not be that high.
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+[21:20] Uh roast it lower, and I've never had one blow on me using uh that technique. If you roast it higher, you you might be able to build up pressure fast enough to have it explode. Apparently you can because you've told me you do. Um so anyway, Paul, give that a shot and let us know how how it works out. How does that sound?
+
+[21:35] Sounds good, Dave. Good advice. We have. I think if you're not getting the little brown marks, that that the evaporative release is also release of pressure. Yes, yeah, exactly.
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+[21:42] So if you're if you're if you get those little pinholes, it means you're releasing pressure, you're not gonna blow it. If you're not getting pinholes, you're building pressure, she she's gonna blow. Right. Right. And just put cracking the shell in one place, especially here's another thing.
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+[21:52] If you if you actually if you boil it beforehand, you might be having some water trapped inside, might be harder actually to get the water out of the center. I wouldn't I I put them in raw. And you might be plugging the plugging the shell as well. I put them in raw, uh uncovered, uh, like you know, on the directly on the rack, which I shouldn't do because they might break. Uh and and that's uh that's how I do it.
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+[22:14] And I haven't had one blow yet. But maybe we should well, next time it's somebody else's house, by the way, I'll I'll try it at a higher temperature. And I thoroughly recommend that if you are gonna blow up an egg in the microwave, if you if at first you don't succeed, try again. It takes longer than you think. If every four eggs, maybe one of them will blow up, and please do it in somebody else's microwave, right?
+
+[22:32] Uh you know, someone that you don't like. Like next time you get invited to someone's house to a party that you hate and there's a million people there, and you can't believe you got invited there, just toss a couple eggs in the microwave and walk away. Don't really do that. Don't don't do that. I'm getting the look like I can't believe you're recommending this.
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+[22:45] I'm not, I'm not, I'm just kidding. When you're getting ready to replace your microwave, the last thing to do in the current microwave would be to blow up an egg. You would not believe what my microwave looked like. It had all kinds of scorch marks on the inside. Uh I mean, you know, I I've done every awful thing you can do to a microwave.
+
+[22:59] Well, I want to repeat that I could probably make the statement that no animals were harmed during the process of this testing. No, everyone always asked me to like, you know, have you put a live X, Y, or Z into No, no, no. Like, especially vacuum machines. Everyone, every s every class I've taught in sous vide, not the you know the one for professionals who come in because they they got a lot to worry about anyway. But like every class I would teach on it, they ever someone would ask me, have I put a live XY or Z in the vacuum machine?
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+[23:23] I'm like, no, no, no. No. Uh although I do have a friend of mine, and this isn't one of those a friend of mine, but it's really me, a friend of mine, who um threw a cockroach infested piece of kitchen equipment into the microwave because he just didn't know what to do. He's like, ah, like this, threw it in the microwave, turn it on, they pop like popcorn, is what I'm told. Yeah.
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+[23:42] I haven't done that in the microwave, but apparently that that is a true enough fact story. Okay. Uh Rolf Wind writes in. He says, Hello, Nastasha. Doesn't care for me, likes you better.
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+[23:52] Well, he's writing to me. Alright, fair. Uh I have a non tech question for the show sometime. It's not today. Today is a tech question.
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+[23:58] I've read widely disparate opinions on the suitability of previously frozen meat for making cured pork products. Specifically, I want to cure pork belly, which is a very good idea for bacon and panchetta and jowl for guanchali. Guanchali is one of the world's great products. Nastash's giving me a squinky face. How the heck could you give me a squinky face on guanchali?
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+[24:16] I overate guanchali. So? I don't like it anymore. I've over eaten lots of things. Yeah, I just don't like it.
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+[24:21] You don't what does that mean you don't like it? You like bacon? Mm-hmm. And you like panchetta? Yes.
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+[24:26] And you don't like guanchali. No, not really. It has like a sock flavor. No. That wasn't that was like moldy guanchali.
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+[24:36] Yeah, I'm here to say no. That is not the case. I prefer um there's a bunch of the artisanal guanchalis out there, I think a bit too dry. I like a little uh I like a moisture guanchali. For those of you not hip to the fact, guan chale is cured pork jowl.
+
+[24:49] You can cure it either flat or you can cure it uh rolled up or you can cure it flat and then roll it up. Um I I like them all. I I I the one I use is rolled up. It has a higher fat percent. And they make something similar in the South called jowl bacon, but um it's not it doesn't taste the same to me because it doesn't have the same spice mixture on that that I usually get from guanchali.
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+[25:08] Uh in my to my taste, there is no finer topping for pizza in the world than guanchali. Guan chali might be the best thing you can put on a pizza, if going back to pizza. And what I like to do is um if you just throw it on there, it doesn't need a lot of heat. You can just throw it on there raw and it'll it'll crisp up in chunks. I slice it really thin um because it's mostly the fat and I like the texture of the fat when it's real thin, and basically just the the heat looks at it and and kind of shrivels it up a little bit, but doesn't make it hard and doesn't take away from the uncuousness of it.
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+[25:37] Have you done a lardo in pizza yet? Uh I have, yes, I have. Uh I I like Lardo is also a good product. Do you like Lardo, Nastasha? So you like bacon, panchetta, and lardo, but not guanchale.
+
+[25:48] Folks, now you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis. I guess you don't like carbonara. No, I do like carbonara, but I use pancetta instead of panchala. Which by the way, on carbonara, please, now look, I'm all for authenticity, right? But we are in the U.S.
+
+[26:02] of A here. And the smokiness accentuates the dish very nicely, thank you. And I think bacon tastes delicious in a carbonate. No. Yes, it don't know.
+
+[26:12] You're wrong. I am not wrong. I'm not saying it's authentic, right? Authentic, like, you know, okay, authentic uh uh uh carts don't have motors in them, and yet I enjoy a cart with a motor on it to help me carry the stuff around. Authenticity isn't everything.
+
+[26:26] Dave, I'm gonna tell you that you may like bacon cream and noodles. That's a good thing, but it's not carbonara. Well, no, but I'm saying it's not authentic, but it's delicious. So for everyone out there saying that you that like somehow, you know, your taste buds are shot, or you know, it's just because you're an American or just because X, Y, and Z, hello, smokiness tastes good in that dish. It's just not Carbonara.
+
+[26:48] It's delicious. Yes, see, Jack? That's for last week's comment that I made here. Look, I'm here to say I'm look I also I'm a firm believer in having the authentic dish the way it's supposed to be prepared without any embellishments, without any changes, preferably in the location and by the people who make it. So you know, because a lot of times it isn't just the preparation, it's the specific ingredients that someone has in a particular place cook differently, they taste differently, the environment's different, their cooking utensils are different, the way they handle ingredients is different.
+
+[27:18] So if possible, you should go taste the uh taste the dish made by the people who are supposed to make it. However, once you've tasted that and you have a target in your head, feel free to do anything you want to it, including using bacon, which is straight up delicious. Um, I can't believe we've totally we've totally sidestepped poor Rolf's question. Okay, so he wants to cure pork belly for bacon and panchetta and jowl for guanchali. But the heritage breed meats that he likes to use are available to him only in the frozen form.
+
+[27:45] Does freezing alter the muscles in such a way as to change the salt curing process? And does the method of freezing make a difference? Aside from these specific specific questions, any insight on meats or cuts or applications that are especially freezing friendly or unfriendly, thanks. He like likes the show in the blog, regards Rolf. Well, thank you for liking the show in the blog.
+
+[28:01] We appreciate it. Here here's the story. First of all, it used to be in the United States that all the cuts of meat that you were gonna use for curing, uh, all the pork was frozen for a deep freeze, actually, for a while, to to cure any trichonella in advance of curing it, which also is going to kill Trichonella, you know, the parasite. Very few, uh, you know, the worm. I love a disease that's measured in worms per cubic centimeter muscle mass, right?
+
+[28:22] Anyway, so uh previously uh most, if not all the meat that we uh cured is uh frozen, right? Now it it turns out that um wait, there's a collar? Yep. Uh this is gonna take a while. So Rolf, I'm gonna come back to your question.
+
+[28:35] I'm gonna take the collar and come back and we'll talk about freezing and uh and meats. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. It's Brian in San Francisco. How are you?
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+[28:42] I'm all right, how are you doing? Good. Um so I got a bunch of gift certificates to like Amazon and Creighton Barrel and stuff, because I got I got married pretty recently. Congratulations. And uh thank you.
+
+[28:53] Um look into get some new pots and pans and just kind of upgrade from the the crappy um mishmash uh that that I have. And um I'm having some trouble trying to figure out exactly what to invest in. I I want to get stuff that's gonna last. And um what what are your recommendations? So you're looking for a like a standard pot and pan set.
+
+[29:19] I don't necessarily need it need a set, but um, you know, I ha particularly I have some pots that aren't aren't very good. I have uh w one pan that I like. I have some that are um non stick that are kind of old and and decrepit and and uh they're not so nonstick any l any longer. Um I have thought about cast iron, but I'm not sure that that's the way I want to go for for everything. Right.
+
+[29:46] Um okay, here here are my thoughts, and then you can bounce stuff off me. One, ditch the old uh ditch the old uh uh nonstick, get a new you should everyone should have at least one nonstick lying around. I have a fairly big one and a fairly small one. Assume that they will get obliterated over the course of a couple years and that you have to throw them away. 12, 14?
+
+[30:08] It's like 14. I have like a four but I have big burners. 14 and an eight, right? Yeah. And so I so I get those and and then I assume that those things are going to be uh gone after a couple of years of use.
+
+[30:17] Still I'm not saying to get a cheap one. Uh I don't know whether scan pan fix the problems that they used to have. Scan pan used to have some problems but they're fairly easy and they actually have a warranty on them so if you break them or you know ruin the coating you can send them back, right? Invest in one invest in one good pressure cooker. If you get a good pressure cooker like Coon Recon, even though it's a very expensive the pot itself is quite a good pot.
+
+[30:37] And so you can cook with it without scorching on the bottom if you're gonna do onions or something before you're gonna add liquids to it to do uh a braise or or a pressure cooker right get one piece of cast iron uh prev uh I have a whole bunch of cast iron but get like well I would not get a new piece of cast iron I would get I would go to seriously go to a thrift store and find a piece of cast iron that has a polished face on it. Cur current cast iron has a pebbly surface it's called as cast whereas they used to sometimes do a machine surface finish or sanding on the inside surface of the pan and those ones when they're seasoned are like glass and they're awesome right but they can't find a manufacturer enamel coated cast iron you want we want one that's well no enamel's fine metal enamel's fine for enamel coated cast iron I would only get a Dutch oven. That's what I have I have like the La Crusade Dutch oven but any one of those cat enameled staub, any one of those guys is going to be fine. But I mean is like I would get one uh I would for everything else. I think the cast iron's gonna be a pain in your butt unless you want to get a muffin pan or something because they're really heavy to lug around.
+
+[31:38] Um I would get um but I would I like having a cast iron uh skillet for biscuits and things like that, and and just because I every once in a while I just feel like it, I feel like having cast iron because you can put it on the stove and crank the heat really high and walk away from it and not worry about it because it's not gonna warp out on you and it's in and it's gonna be good. But I would get one from a thrift store or from a uh a used source, so long as it's not been scrubbed, it's not too rusty, and the surface is glassy smooth. And you it's hard to get nowadays because they're they're rough and pebbly, but I would get separately from your enameled one, right? Uh I wouldn't subject an enameled one to the super high heat that I would suggest a black, you know, put a black cast iron skillet on, right? Now for your standard pots and pans, I would go for any high quality pan that uh you like the that you like the look of.
+
+[32:26] Uh I use all clad at home, and they stood up to years of constant abuse. I don't have any fancy all clad, but I'm not shilling out for all clad either. It's just this is what I I use at home. And I get uh a fairly wide variety, you're gonna need a couple sizes of sauce, pan, uh, and you know, at least one small like uh like a skillet uh and then uh you know a larger stock style pot. It I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a giant stock pot.
+
+[32:53] The giant stock pot is the thing you should have that's cheap because you're only gonna cook liquids in it, and it does not matter the quality of the pot if all you're gonna be doing is boiling water in it, unless it looks so ugly that you can't stand, you know, uh looking at it in your house, right? So all of like I tend to go cheap on my huge pots that are only gonna have water boiling in them. Is this making any sense what I'm saying? Yeah, um what do you what what do you think? Um I'm sort of like uh I understand what you're saying about the every everyday pan.
+
+[33:20] And are those what are those made of? Like the Alcladd all clad are they steel what are they uh they have an aluminum core what's the yeah, they haven't they have an aluminum core and they have stainless steel uh um and a lot of them I think na now the a lot of the Alclads have uh um the ability to to go on induction fairly efficiently they have like I guess it's either magnetic stainless or or the stainless itself is good enough with induction that they can run induction or they can run uh or they can run off of gas or electric but you need that aluminum slug in the center for uh rapid and even heat conduction. Also the Alclad has an insane warranty. Really? I've sent I've sent two brands back.
+
+[33:58] I've never had two I've actually sent my sta my uh my non stick back twice and they sent me a brand new one. My one gripe with Alclad is that it the inside of the pan you can see where the handle is riveted on. Now I've seen in in the school I've seen those fail from is extreme abuse. But at home they've never failed but the one problem with them is is they are difficult to clean out around the rivets. But that's my only real that's my only real gripe.
+
+[34:23] Every other handle what'd you say? Little blow torch will help yeah yeah I the only uh the only time uh the uh only pans I've had that have had welded handles on I've broken those welds off so the rivets I've never broken. Um barkeeper's friend is also something that uh makes it easy to clean. Yeah get rid of the stuff so spend your money on the stuff that is gonna see a lot of high heat you're gonna be frying sauteing with don't spend the money on something that's gonna see mainly water the exception being uh I would spend the money on on like a coon recon uh pressure cooker if you can if you can afford it. They're expensive.
+
+[34:57] They're like they're like two, three hundred dollars right? Yeah for one pop that's expensive. That's like the cost of microphoney for a pot. Yeah, but but he's got to sp look he's gotta also buy all these other pots and pans. You know, but you for price of one uh uh you know coon recon and get the big one by the way, you know, you you could get a whole set of all uh a starter set of all clats, you know?
+
+[35:13] But the pressure cleaner is so. What do you think about copper? Um I you know I've seen some like copper lining. Do you enjoy cleaning things a lot? I mean just interior copper lining.
+
+[35:24] Usually the copper slugs aren't big enough to have that much of an advantage. Copper is a better heat conductor than aluminum. Copper is the ultimate material from a heat transmission standpoint, and they have a nice hefty weight to them. They're extremely expensive. If the copper is showing, they're very hard to clean and keep clean.
+
+[35:40] And uh the other problem is is usually a lot of the people that have copper pants, they don't have enough copper in them, so you're not really getting the advantage. Whereas the aluminum slug pans have a real thick slug of aluminum on the bottom of them. And you can look look at the bottom of your pan before you buy it. You should see it's gonna have like a little basically shelf of aluminum underneath that you can see it in m in many pans. The bottom of the pan should be like a quarter inch thick.
+
+[36:02] Yeah, they're thick, and that's what you really really want. So I wouldn't spend I wouldn't go the extra money on copper unless you like to polish things. Like Thomas Keller's like that, he likes to polish things. Well uh, you know, but that's the only reason I think the What I bought my copper slug eight years ago, ten years ago. That was when the aluminum slug really wasn't a big deal, and it was either copper or nothing.
+
+[36:20] Oh now I think that with the aluminum slugs, you don't it's not a big deal anymore. Yeah, I have all you know, and you know, uh then there's a question of for your cheap big stock pot, is it okay to go all aluminum? You know, do you believe that aluminum touching the food is bad? Um I don't. And uh one of my big stock pot is aluminum because it's very lightweight and it's very tough and big.
+
+[36:38] But uh like six gallons. I use my giant stock pot is a turkey fryer stock pot. Six, you know, uh, and that's really the cheapest way to get one of those things, but you have to be willing to have it's ugly, and you have to be willing to cook in aluminum. The only the only downside of that is I like to take that thing and stick it on an induction burner. Yeah.
+
+[36:54] Well, it depends on if you have induction or not. What do you have out there in San Francisco? Do you have induction, gas? What do you have? I have gas.
+
+[37:00] Nice. I like gas, although induction's awesome. If I if I, you know, but gases. Unfortunately, from an energy usage standpoint, still the way to go here in the US. Has this been helpful at all?
+
+[37:11] Yeah, this is a this has been really great. Um I also read something that like many restaurants basically they buy like uh cheaper pans um just because like they get so beat up, like you were saying, like at the school that they get really beat up and they just like go through them like every six months. It depends on the restaurant. So and it depends on the philosophy of the restaurant. I mean, I think like the finer restaurants, the philosophy is you treat all your equipment nicely, you treat all your food nicely, and you have decent stuff.
+
+[37:36] Now, if you know you're going to abuse something on purpose, right, or there's a uh a process that obl that obliterates things as a matter of course. The reason like why we use settle p sizzle platters and whatnot, those things are made of something that's not that expensive. But in general, the very high-end restaurants, they have respect for the food and the thing that touches the food, right? It's like a top-down respect for food that trickles down onto the plate and to the customer. In a less expensive restaurant where you're hiring someone who you do not trust, you know, there's no reason to hand that person a good piece of equipment because you don't think that they're gonna respect it.
+
+[38:07] You know you see what I'm saying? I mean, I'm a firm believer in not spending a lot of money if there's no use to it. But if if there's a use to it, right, if the heat is more even and therefore the food is gonna be better, then get a better piece of equipment and treat it nicely. You know what I mean? I I I do.
+
+[38:21] Um, and I I have some opportunity to get some nice stuff, which is why I why I called in. Um do most restaurants use like the all clad, or do they end up using like you know, fancy fancy French brands and stuff like that? It just that aren't accessible to um it's it's chef to chef, but I I see a lot of all clad out there. Well, a lot of restaurants they they exploit that uh that lifetime warranty. You know, after they've scrubbed it, they s they because they get scrubbed with a you know with a brillow pad, and when they get really thin and the you see it start to develop cracks, they just send it back to all clad all cats that's another one.
+
+[38:53] That's great. Great. Okay. It sounds like that's the way to go with the warranty. Okay, thanks a lot, guys.
+
+[38:58] Have fun outfitting your kitchen. Nothing's more fun than buying stuff. All right, bye. All right. So uh back to uh Rolf's question here.
+
+[39:04] So he's uh gonna cure pork belly to refresh you what's going on and the freezing what happens. When you freeze meat, uh what's going on is that uh especially if you freeze it slowly, is that you're not freezing the water on the inside of the cells. You're actually the water is extracted from the cells and the cells get somewhat dehydrated, the crystals form on the outside of the of the cells, right? Uh there's also a certain amount of the the fact that those crystals, then as you store them in the freezer, they grow and they shrink, they grow and they shrink, and they puncture the cells, right? Then as it uh thaws, the water needs to reabsorb into the meat, but but because you've ruptured some of the cells and because it's impossible to get all of the water back into the meat, you lose some liquid, right?
+
+[39:40] And that's what's called drip loss. Now things that are very fragile, like berries, you notice they just turn into a watery mess because all the shell uh the cells get kind of hurt, right? And that's really what's going on, is that you've perforated some of the cells and you've lost some of the moisture. So in theory, what happens in terms of actual penetration is that because you've ruptured some of the cells and there's a lot of liquid movement on the inside, you should be able to cure it faster, right? It would it will take the cure uh even faster.
+
+[40:04] So it's not gonna hurt um, it's not gonna hurt it from a curing standpoint to have uh frozen it. Now uh you there are some people I read on the on the internet because uh I didn't even know it was an issue. There's some people on the internet who think that it's gonna have more of a bacterial problem if you thaw it and then cure it, because I guess they're presuming that it's gonna take a while to thaw it out. Uh, but presuming that you have a good purveyor who froze it right, you know, when it when it was ready, shipped it to you frozen, and then you're thawing it and then quickly curing it. I don't think any extra bacteria from the time it takes to thaw is going to be a big deal.
+
+[40:39] In fact, you don't I'm not saying this, but you could probably start the curing process as it's thawing, even because the salt will uh help accept uh you know accelerate the um the thaw down. Now the one thing I will say is that you probably should not cure the bacon and then freeze it, because what happens is unless you have a vacuum packing machine, um cured meats, uh especially pork, because it believe it or not, that the fat in pork uh has a good degree of unsaturation to it, it's very unstable uh once it's been cured in salt and exposed to oxygen, has a tendency to go rancid. So if you freeze bacon and it's not in a very, very good um uh vacuum pack along with some other antioxidants like for instance smoke or maybe even some like you know, some uh add I wouldn't add ascorbic acid, but like uh something like sodium metabisulfide or something like that as an antioxidant along with vacuum. You'll notice that even in the freezer, uh your uh bacon will get rancid very quickly and start developing the off-flavors of fat rancidity. So I would definitely, if you were gonna deal with a frozen thing, uh not freeze it after it's uh cured.
+
+[41:41] I would cu uh freeze it fresh, thaw it, cure it, and then use it. Unless you're doing a super long cure when it's gonna stick out, stay out for a long time anyway, in which case the water levels are lower correspondingly your rancidity will be less. And believe it or not, the flavor that we like in a lot of old cured meats actually is partially fat rancidity, kind of in a way that makes it taste good, right? So it's not always necessarily bad. Like one person's rancidity is another person's delicious two-year-old ibirico uh bayota fed uh uh jamone.
+
+[42:10] So, let me see whether I've answered all of your questions. I th I think so. I would go ahead and cure and cure those uh cure those things. Now, one last question I have in from Brian uh Heslop. Uh he says the recent museum fundraiser sounds like it was incredible.
+
+[42:23] Uh and it was, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm very upset I missed it. Yeah, I know.
+
+[42:27] It was it was it was quite good. He has a question about Wiley's dish. Now, for those of you that didn't see the blog, Wiley's dish was it was called Bone Appetit Bone Appetite, and because I gave him caveman food. Uh and one of the things in it, you can go on the blog and look at it. One of the things was uh Inoki mushrooms that were uh looked like twigs, and he says, How did he make it?
+
+[42:44] And I forget. I think he soaked them in um in some sort of like flavorful broth like soy and then uh dehydrated them. And they they that's the only part of the dish I got to taste, and they tasted really good. Did you taste that dish? Yeah, but Nastash and I were actually running dishes.
+
+[42:59] No, you were, but yeah. Anyway, I was running dishes, and by the time I came back to try and taste the like the leftovers, uh they were all gone. Uh he had another question have I ever looked at importing gear from uh manufacturers in China? I've looked at it, but the problem is I never have enough of a minimum quantity order. And the other problem is that unless you know a specific manufacturer, I'll tell you some stories from Philip Preston, good friend Philip Preston from Poly Science, and it tries to import Chinese gear all the time, and he's had some things that he's had really good luck with and some things that he's had really bad luck with.
+
+[43:26] If you uh imp if you if you go over there and have someone build something to spec, then they will build it to your spec, and it will probably be good. I mean, a lot of really amazing stuff is built. For instance, modernist cuisine Jerry is looking at is was printed in China because the printers over there were so good. They were the only printers that uh Mirvold and Chris Young could get that would print the quality they wanted. Yeah.
+
+[43:48] Um so and I'm sure there's millions of blog posts out there on on uh how awesome the printing is on Mirvold's book, and it is. Uh and you know, Chris knows anyway. But um what were we're talking about before that? Since Nastashi interrupted me by by doing the watch point. Chinese.
+
+[43:59] Chinese, yes. So, but the problem is if you if you buy something over there that was built to somebody else's spec, it might not be your spec. So I know he tried uh a couple of uh um Chinese model import vacuum machines, and the problem was is that they look I mean they they weren't as robo as the ones that we get because that wasn't part of the QC process. But also if you vacuumed a lot of liquids in them, it fried some piece of componentry in there, it caused smoke and almost a fire, right? So unless you know something works, like for instance, like if you go online, look on on blogs for whatever people are doing, and people will have tried X, Y, and Z cheap Chinese stuff.
+
+[44:37] So, for instance, everyone I know who buys the miniature mills and lathes buys the Sieg ones that come in and they're all made by one or two manufacturers in China, and they work with some known problems, but everyone knows what those problems are and they fix them. Ditto with laser cutters, ditto with um, you know, certain like uh plasma cutting tools, things like that. So it's just look online and don't be the first person in the US to try it out. Anyway, so uh that's my that's my send it to Dave, and he'll try it out. Yeah, right.
+
+[45:04] If anyone if anyone wants to send me some crap for free, I'm happy to test it, right? Right? Sure, we have time. Yeah, yeah, right. Like we have we're made of time.
+
+[45:11] Anyway, this has been this week's cooking issues. Come back next week. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[45:33] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. In 2010, escapemaker.com won an Emmy Award for their agro tourism website. So this year they thought, why not bring agritourism and green getaway ideas right to you?
+
+[46:04] Come to the Green Getaways Local Food and Travel Expo on April 30th at One Hanson Place, home of the Brooklyn Flea and former Williamsburg Savings Bank. Presented by Amtrak, Zipcar, and I Love New York, the carbon-free event will be a day filled with food, prizes, workshops, and kids' activities. Over 50 getaway destinations from counties to local farms and bed and breakfasts within a day's drive or train ride of New York City will be exhibiting on the main floor and in the huge bank vault downstairs. See what's hot and sustainable travel and receive special show-only discounts. Grow NYC will be doing workshops on the green market, and Appalachian Mountain Club will offer workshops on adventure bicycling and hiking via mass transit.
+
+[46:43] Escapemaker.com will be giving away over 50 getaway prizes, ranging from Zipline Adventure Passes to an overnight stay at Mohank Mountain House. Travel greener, eat local. Come to the Expo on April 30th. Get your tickets now at www.escapemaker.com.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You may have noticed that one Whole Foods Market store is not like the other. We're proud that each of our stores has its own quirks, a direct connection to the surrounding community, and buys and sells their own products. Whether it's artisanal chocolates exclusive to Bowery, small batch pickles in Chelsea, or a featured craft beer on tap at West 97, you'll find that each store is a little bit different than the next. With six Manhattan locations, Whole Foods Market offers a taste of every neighborhood.
+
+[0:30] Come see us in Tribeca, Bowery, Union Square, Chelsea, Columbus Circle, or the Upper West Side. Open seven days a week from 8 a.m. to eleven p.m. For more information, visit www.smarket.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:58] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network, uh from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn. Here today with uh Nastash De Hammer Lopez. We might be joined later by Brooks Headley, pastry chef at Del Posto, one of our favorite restaurants. Calling all of your questions to 497 What? I'm 718 4972128.
+
+[1:19] That's 718-497-2128. Because for some reason it is impossible for me to commit this number to memory no matter how many times I've said it, and I usually have a little slip of paper in front of me that tells me what the number is. Uh and today I don't have it, so Nastasha's gonna have to to say it. Do you have any blocks like that, Nastasha? Things you just can't remember for one reason or another?
+
+[1:40] No. Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. Nothing.
+
+[1:44] Alright. So uh this is uh I guess this is our Cinco de Mayo edition, even though it's uh it's not. What day is it? Third today? Third, yeah.
+
+[1:52] Third. Anyway. So but uh today Nastash and I are going to be at the Lucky Rice Festival. I think you can still get tickets, right? Although they're expensive.
+
+[1:58] What are they? Oh, it's fifty bucks? $50 for nine? So you can come by and we're going to make some uh we're taking strawberries, uh blending them actually. Uh our intern Cliff is doing it right now back at the lab so-called in the back of the milk bar commissary.
+
+[2:13] Uh we're gonna blend strawberries and uh tequila. Uh I think we have a uh we have a reposado, right? Yeah. Yeah. And uh we're uh blending that um together, uh putting it through a centrifuge with some enzymes.
+
+[2:24] We get crystal clear strawberry uh tequila. We're just gonna squeeze uh some lime into it and uh stir it with some ice and uh haven't figured out what the garnish is. Have we figured out the garnish on that one yet? No, not that one. No?
+
+[2:36] Mm-mm. No. Uh but it's called mummy juice. Uh and the reason it's called mummy juice is because strawberries are grown in Mexico? Strawberries are grown in Mexico in Juan Ju, and that's also where they have the mummies.
+
+[2:47] So because it's strawberries and Mexican, it's mummies. So uh we're doing mummy juice today, and we're also gonna take some uh Bombay sapphire gin, uh blend it with bananas, spin it for uh another version of our gin justino, a drink we we like very much, gin justino. Justino means blending with bananas and spinning in a centerfuge with enzymes. Don't ask why. Uh and that one we're gonna serve probably with uh ginger, right?
+
+[3:10] Yeah. But they only gave us twelve bottles of each. So uh Nastash and I are gonna pour tall, kick fast, and then join the party as uh as party people instead of as uh dorks behind the behind the counter. True or false? True.
+
+[3:24] True, right? Okay. Um so that order of business is out. Uh we have a question in from Scott Hansma. Uh Hansma has a uh uh some comments on what he thinks the name of our new company should be.
+
+[3:37] And he says he likes the idea that if a Scoffier wrote today, uh he would have in addition to the uh roast station and the fish station a kind of rotovap centrifuge uh cool stuff station. So that we should call the equipment company something like Future Station or Eighth Station or uh Brigade uh Brigade Technologique if you wanted to be fancy in French. Well, actually I kind of like some of these suggestions. Uh I like a kitchen brigade sounds pretty sounds pretty badass, I think. Kitchen Brigade?
+
+[4:03] Sounds pretty badass. Of course, if Escoffia was writing today, he would write in English. Boom! Boom! But uh but uh that's just me.
+
+[4:11] So the uh but uh and I like these, and and I think we might actually maybe use one of those things for a line of kitchen equipment, but I think pending the approval of our partners in this, Stas, uh I'm thinking that we're gonna go with ready. Booker and Dax. These are the names of my two kids, right? So Booker sounds like you know, kind of like an old dude, even though he's only ten, nine rather. He sounds like an old dude who's kind of smart and knows what's up.
+
+[4:37] That's also true. And Dax is the kind of guy that's like, you know, you don't want to mess with him. Like this equipment's not gonna break. Who said so? Dax, Dax said so, Dax said.
+
+[4:44] Anyway, so I think Booker and Dax, uh, which, you know, name name of my two kids together, sounds like an old school company. What do you think, Stas? Yeah, no, I said I liked it. You like it, right? Yeah, Booker Index.
+
+[4:55] But I like this, uh I like Kitchen Brigade as a line of tools. Yeah, or brigade kitchen brigade. Yeah. You know who would come up with that? Booker Index.
+
+[5:05] Right? Yes. Anyway, so I'll run that, we'll run that past and we might have an announcement on that within the week, maybe, right? Once the are the lawyers almost done talking? Yeah.
+
+[5:15] Anyway, uh, thank you, Scott, for those uh for those questions. Now, Richard uh Kokovich called in, uh, wrote in and said he ordered the Koava disc for his aeropress after mentioning it in his previous email. We spoke about it on a uh on an earlier thing. It's a basically a uh fine mesh filter that fits into the AeroPress, which is the cheap kind of like uh piston-based uh coffee maker that we've been talking about, says that he likes it uh very much, so that's good. Uh and then he uh mentioned because we were talking about the Thermomix last week, someone brought a brawn Thermomix, which is a uh an old uh mergeon circulator.
+
+[5:46] He wants to know about the Thermomix proper. Uh Thermomix proper. Um he said he's been interested in the device. It looks like they're no longer distributed in the US, though there's a Canadian distributor who allegedly shipped to the U.S., so there's not much in the way of reviews. Um he sees that most reviews that are written are not by the type of people who would heat uh silicon carbide bricks in the microwave for steering.
+
+[6:05] That would be us. That'd be us. Uh have we ever had the opportunity to put a thermomix through its paces? Um and you know, it's yes, I have. We don't have one anymore because it got stolen.
+
+[6:16] So what the thermomix is, for those of you that don't know, it is a blender with like a little almost like a food processor blade. Um, but the bowl is also a scale, which is useful. Um it's useful. It's not a very accurate scale, but it's pretty useful. And also a heating device.
+
+[6:31] So it uh it can heat while it blends, uh, which is useful for certain things like uh in hydrocolloids, like if you're gonna do gel-an, you can heat and stir at the same time, agitate and keep it hot so you don't have to worry about it uh you know gelling up on you as it cools down. So, yes, it's useful for that. It's useful for making certain kinds of hot foams. It makes an awesome kind of cheese sauce that because it keeps stirring it when it doesn't burn while it's cooking, so it's great. Uh it's good to weigh things out.
+
+[6:58] It's not the world's greatest blender, but it is really cool, but it's very, very, very expensive. It costs in the US roughly what two Vitapreps would cost. Okay. Um I don't think it's worth two Vitapeps. I would rather have two, like, like unless you're at home, I would rather have two Vitapeps in my kitchen than one Thermomix.
+
+[7:18] Now, all of the European uh chefs, they love the Thermomix because in Europe, the Thermomix is it's around. It's a it's like consumers use it like they would use a Kitchenator or anything else. I think it probably is a little bit cheaper in Europe, where conversely, Vita Preps are very expensive, which are the high power blenders that we all use, they are very expensive over there. So there's very few vita preps in Europe and very many thermal mixes, the exact uh opposite of here. Uh the Vitapep kicks the crap out of the thermomix as a blender, but there is other there are other things that uh the thermomix can do.
+
+[7:50] We're actually uh Brooks just showed up, so he's gonna I'm gonna pass do you guys have any thermal, you know, the thermal mixes? You ever uh play around with them? Uh no, actually we don't have one. Um I'm terrified of them. Right really?
+
+[8:01] You say that's funny. But they you know they like a lot of the stuff that they serve at the Thermomix that they sell with it is is like hoo-ha, it's nonsense. Like you don't need the steaming basket because you can just steam with it. I don't know anyone, like even if you're a pro, I mean, are you really gonna like time everything right so that the stuff that's stirring in the underneath is done at the exact same time that your broccoli is steamed right? I mean, it doesn't make so much sense to me.
+
+[8:22] But if you have $700 in your pocket and it's burning a hole in your pocket uh and you don't already own a vita prep or a good blender and you're looking for something, it's pretty interesting that a lot of people in Europe like a lot of Thermomix. It's good, right? I mean, it's okay. No, no, I'm I'm never I'm completely fascinated by them. But again, I would rather s take that 700 bucks and buy two vita preps with it.
+
+[8:44] Um because you can't ever have enough vita preps. Um okay. So uh any uh any any so by the way, for those of you that don't know Brooks, Brooks is uh the well the pastry chef, but is there like a title that goes above pastry chef at Del Posto? Uh no, I'm just uh I mean technically it's executive pastry chef. Executive pastry, that's what I was looking for.
+
+[9:08] I'm not m very much of an executive, so uh pastry chef is fine. Right. Guy that makes desserts. Guy yeah, right. Dessert dude at Del Posto.
+
+[9:16] Del Posto, one of our favorite restaurants uh in Manhattan. It's uh the only um Italian restaurant that has four stars, true? True? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:26] The only Italian restaurant that has uh four stars. Uh our good friend uh Mark Ladner is the is the chef there, and it's uh it's a a great meal. I think one of the interesting things about Brooks's work, I'm gonna put him on the spot because I didn't say I was gonna do this, is that even though um you know a lot of the dishes um have traditional bases to them at Del Posto, even though they're not necessarily a hundred percent traditional, I think that it's some of the like most interesting, freshest desserts out there that Brooks is putting out. I think what do you think, Nastasha? Yeah.
+
+[9:56] Yeah, I mean like not that they're the flavors aren't wacky, it's not about being wacky, but I think just like very literally fresh presentations, uh interesting using uh flavors that aren't necessarily uh crazy, but I think just you know pretty interesting stuff. Uh but for some reason the guys at Del Posto don't like being thought of as as innovative comments. No uh no Wow, yeah. Um, it's just it's it like we're I I don't know. I just I consider myself like like a like a grandma.
+
+[10:28] So like in terms of like the style of the food or the way that I cook it or whatever. Like um and I I definitely think of it as cooking. Like a lot of pastry chefs think of they're like bakers or whatever. Like I'm I'm a cook, so yeah, and I innovative I uh I don't really invent anything, so I don't know. Well, I mean yeah, that I mean I think that but that's the thing.
+
+[10:53] I think um here's the thing. People who get labeled as innovative who right are are pushing certain boundaries of techniques and uh you know ingredients, to me it's enough to be innovative if I haven't tasted something like that before, or it's surprising, um surprising and yet surprising and yet familiar in terms of it's not outside of my uh bounds of comfort, but uh yet I'm still surprised. Like these are the kinds of things that I enjoy tasting um kind of the most. Like in particular, like it's dead simple, but your celery sorbet is a butt kicker. Is it still on the menu?
+
+[11:27] In some form. Yeah, I I I I'm not gonna take it off anytime soon, so it's a delicious product, right? I don't think I've had it. You haven't had it? You haven't had it?
+
+[11:36] Crazy. Uh and uh, you know, the dish you did for the why don't you talk about the dish you did for the uh for the museum uh event, the uh the Hebrew food in Italy. Uh that was the artichoke. Yes. Um well it's funny, like uh I actually uh I had a chef maybe like ten years ago that wanted me to do an artichoke dessert.
+
+[11:58] And I did and it was terrible. So I chose to do it again as like a challenge to myself, like making an artichoke into some sort of sweet thing, you know, so I I mean I think it came out pretty good, so why was the last one terrible? Oh it was I mean I had no idea what I was doing, so I I don't remember what I I think I like like chopped it up and caramelized it and like hammered it and put it on some ice cream. It was it was pretty gross. Really?
+
+[12:25] Yeah. But that was, you know, I've evolved since then. Yeah, a little bit. I hope. I hope.
+
+[12:29] Little bit? So listen, call in your qu what's the what are the uh right there. Okay. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128.
+
+[12:37] Call in um any questions you have for Brooks or for us. And I can either talk more, we can go to our first break. What do you think? Jack, what do you think? Break or talk?
+
+[12:45] Break or talk, break or talk. Break. Talk. Talk. Alright.
+
+[12:49] So uh Ben, I'm gonna try to pronounce his name. Schwanier. Schwaniere. You like that? Yeah.
+
+[12:55] Schwanier. Ben Chuanier um says, Have I ever tried one of the wonderful uh French fry so cal uh burritos? It's basically like a breakfast burrito with a bunch of French fries jammed into it. Uh I have not. You got one as local Mexican spot.
+
+[13:10] This is you know, continuing our Cinco de Mayo theme. Uh got one as local Mexican spot and it and it took him back. But we are burrito, we like burritos. Uh I do. Nastasha doesn't because she hates anything she had growing up.
+
+[13:20] All right. I swear to God. She doesn't like like limes because they grew in her backyard. She doesn't like uh uh freaking what is it you don't like? Anything that you had as a child.
+
+[13:30] She's like, I ate a peanut when I was a kid, so I don't like them anymore. Right? It's crazy. So she doesn't like burritos because she grew up in LA and she ate them as a child. Most people on earth like stuff that they ate as a child.
+
+[13:42] She's the exact opposite. She's like, my mom's shortbread tasted like hard tech. Not that she's ever had hard tech. Right. I made her hard tack, so she now has a reference to it.
+
+[13:52] But beaten biscuits are basically hard tech. Anyway, um so sorry uh for that little tirade. So uh I have not tried the French fire, butter, that would be delicious, but I am a fan of speaking of frying burritos of the chimichanga. Do you enjoy the chimichanga? Oh, a fried burrito?
+
+[14:08] Amazing. Yeah, right? Amazing. Right? So I don't know if we've ever discussed this on the show, but uh we had uh we did a pilot for uh like what's did we ever talk about this?
+
+[14:14] Yeah, for what's donors, like what stoners would do, and these stoners came in, and it's not actually the first time I've heard this idea, if you can believe that, of for like burrito tape your burrito together, you know, tape it like some sort of tape so your burrito won't come apart. This is a pilot that they never picked up the show. But I think the greatest invention maybe of my whole life was something we did for this. It's called the semi-changa. Have we talked about this on the air before?
+
+[14:37] The semi-changa? Anyway, so that what this okay, why don't you just eat the chimichanga walking around? The answer is because the top, when you eat it will shatter and then the parts will fall all over the place, right? When you eat a burrito, the problem is the burrito like kind of slimes out and then gets crappy all over your hands. The semi-changa, huh, is where you make a burrito and you fry only like the bottom third to half of it to make it crispy like a chimichanga.
+
+[15:01] You wrap that in the paper, and now the top is still soft like a burrito, right? And then you can eat the top like an ice cream cone, because it's a burrito, and then when you get down to the bottom where it's crunchy, it's not so tall, so it's not gonna explode and go flying all over your shirt. The semi-changa, you heard it here first. All right, now we will go to the break. We'll come back with questions for Brooks at 718-497-2128.
+
+[15:22] That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. This is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Take a swig of Beer Sessions Radio every Tuesday at 5 p.m. with Jimmy Carboni, the owner of Jimmy's number 43, and Ray Dieter, owner of DBA. Beer loving Rack and Tours offer toasts, share craft beer news, and swap anecdotes about their lives on the front lines of the craft beer movement.
+
+[17:02] Again, Beer Sessions Radio every Tuesday at 5 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. But I have a question in from um Oh, I don't have who the question is.
+
+[17:26] Can you can you look it up who it came from? Unfortunately. So uh the question, oh Nick Feela. Uh hi, Dave and Nastasha. I currently go to Schoolcraft College uh culinary school, and they are known here in Michigan for having quite a few master chefs.
+
+[17:40] Uh I'm assuming he's meaning certified master chefs. Does this title really mean much to most chefs or any of the other titles like certified executive chef, etc.? And I would eventually like to work in New York restaurants, but from what I hear it's hard to get in some of the restaurants without contacts. Do you have any tips? Thanks, Nick.
+
+[17:55] Uh well, the school where you are, I believe, has Brian Poulson, who's very well regarded charcuterie uh chef who also I believe happens to be a uh certified master chef. Uh there aren't that many certified master chefs. There's only I think like sixty or seventy certified master chefs, and you have to go through a preposterous battery of tests to do it. And it was famously chronicled in that uh Ruleman book uh Soul of the Chef, right? Wasn't that about certified master chefs?
+
+[18:19] Yeah. Um and I think uh and you know, uh Brooks will come in in any minute here, I think it's an amazing accomplishment to be able to pass all those tests, but I don't think it necessarily I mean d in New York it's more like is your restaurant good? Where have you worked, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Let's it's all about like was your last dish good.
+
+[18:43] Right, right. I mean, in other words, uh you well, okay, so we'll we have a caller, so we'll discuss this more after after we take the caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hi. Um I was just curious, do you have any tips for like avoiding cracks in cheesecakes?
+
+[18:57] Oh, Brooks. When you bake them. Brooks, do you have any tips for avoiding cracks in cheesecake? Ah, that's a tough one. Um it depends on a lot of things, like like the temperature and obviously the uh whether it's uh whether you're cooking in a water bath or there's so many different like variations the in terms of like the cracks though, um like in like a classic like New York cheesecake or whatever, um it's uh no it's it's it's it's it's really it's really it's really it's a really I I have no Well are the cracks happening because the top like sets and dries out too soon and then splits as it cools or when it's like what is what's causing the cracks.
+
+[19:45] Not a big cheesecake. Do you cook it in a water bath by the way? I have not cooked in a water bath. I when I make my cheesecakes, what always happens is I get a big crack and then I just cover it with cherries or something. Yeah, actually that's what I do too.
+
+[20:00] I think that that makes sense though, that it the heat probably cooks it too fast and it doesn't know what to do, but just split. Or if it dries out a little bit on top from the oven, if it's not there's no moisture in there, I would assume it would get a little bit tougher and then then it might it might uh split instead of giving I'm not sure. Right, like you know, I mean in in like a in a like a st a still oven at home, like you don't have I mean you you have one setting basically on, you know. Like I mean if you have like a like obviously we have super fancy like comvy ovens and stuff where you can adjust everything, you know. So like technically I could probably get a cheesecake that doesn't crack, but oh you mean like a convection oven?
+
+[20:37] Uh yeah, I mean like at the restaurant we have like super fancy ovens that do all sorts of things, but the funny thing is is like if I was gonna bake a cheesecake, I would just bake it in a still oven the same way that you would bake it at home. So do it the four-star way and just put some cherries on top. Yeah, okay. But if I if if I think of anything, I'm I might see uh McGee uh later this week and he thinks about those kinds of things a lot. So if I if I come up with anything, then I'll uh I'll I'll mention it next week.
+
+[21:06] Yeah, if anybody should know it'll be him. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well anyway, thanks. Thanks for the call.
+
+[21:10] We'll we'll try and figure out some more stuff for you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. So back to the certified master chef thing, right?
+
+[21:16] I mean, I I definitely have respect that someone can accomplish it, but it's not necessarily gonna get them I mean a certified master chef is not like looking for a line job right on at a restaurant. Uh yeah. That they're probably mainly working for larger institutions or teaching or I think mostly like when I hear about people with that a title like that, they're either like yeah, they're working for a school or they're or they're like the corporate chef for like a big company or something, you know. So right. But it i it it is a great achievement.
+
+[21:48] So I'm not uh No, no, of course, like and as to I would eventually like to work in New York restaurants, but from what I hear it's hard to get into some of the restaurants without contacts. Do you have any tip? It definitely helps to have in the high end restaurants, it definitely helps to have some human being that will vouch for you and say that you're a good worker. And I'm gonna say something, and then Brooks will s tell me whether I'm right or wrong. Uh but uh it's very compelling argument to uh write a bunch of times saying I'm willing to come work for free to do whatever to be in your kitchen, and then and I will work like a dog and expect nothing and I will do it for free is fairly compelling argument.
+
+[22:23] No, no, it's totally totally works. Especially like if you're relentless, like like one letter like that, maybe you look at it like eh, whatever. But if you get like ten letters from the same person, like eventually they stop being a crazy person. I mean, maybe up up until a certain point they're a crazy person, but then you're like, Well, maybe they're just really into it. And like definitely if you're relentless with it, and that it can definitely like get your foot in the door.
+
+[22:48] So you have to be willing to do whatever, work like a dog, right? And just or just basically show up and expect anything, you know. Like I mean, like when we have trails or stodges come in, like sometimes the the nature of the the day or whatever, they're just rolling chocolate truffles for like four hours, you know. So and that's usually like a good gold standard or a litmus test, whatever, for like if if someone comes in and just and like rolls truffles really fast, and it's like, all right, what can I do next? Then you're like, ah, okay.
+
+[23:24] Maybe this maybe this is a a good person or whatever. And then sometimes people will just roll the truffles really slow, and I'll be like, Oh, is that your f is that your third tray? Like, no, it's my first trade. And they're like, really, like then you know, like, well, what's going on here. So yeah.
+
+[23:38] But uh so what if they're one of those unfortunate people like me with hot hands and they're smearing all the truffles. Um well we we then we will move you into the walk-in freezer. It's a known thing for pastry people, hot hands, my Yeah, I know hot hands is it's a it's it's a rough one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, hot hands.
+
+[23:55] Not much of a chocolate guy, never have been. Hot hands. I'm not making this stuff up, Nastasha. So anyway, uh Nick, I I hope that that uh helps you out and uh start making the list of places you want to work at and then just start piling emails on. But if you go to a culinary school, one of the main things of a culinary school is that there are people there who know chefs, and I guarantee you there's someone there who knows someone who can get you vouched into a place, so you might not have to write a thousand letters, but I would be prepared to do it if you have a particular place that you want to work.
+
+[24:28] There are some places because their kitchens aren't very big where they actually it can be hard to get a stodge even working for free, but usually if you pester them long enough, like Brooks says, you you can make it in because event you know, they uh kitchen people seem to enjoy persistence. Yeah, no, of course. Like it it it shows that you're like committed to the cause, which is exactly the kind of person that you want working for you in a kitchen is someone completely entirely committed, like like a soldier without any question, you know. So what percentage of the people who come in as a stash you think burn out? Um I mean like people that start as a stash?
+
+[25:10] Or in other words, like yeah, people that really want to, you know, go the you know, high-end perfectionist fine dining restaurant route, come in, do a stash, and then they're like, wow, this really wasn't what I thought I I wanted it. It wasn't what I thought. Oh, you mean like right off the bat? Um a lot. Yeah.
+
+[25:27] A lot of people, yeah. Like a lot of people will be like, I had no idea this is what it's gonna be like, or or I mean it usually like I find for like for for a lot of my staff it it comes at the end of the night, where you know they think of like working in like a a fancy fine dining restaurant as like this very glamorous thing, but at the end of the night, like, you know, you're on your hands and knees like scrubbing out the low boy, like and and every s and especially for dessert people, like every single other person in the entire restaurant is gone. So you're there basically by yourself scrubbing out the low boy, and it's it might be like two in the morning, and that's that I find that that's like a crack like a cracking point for people, like 'cause I like looking around and like they're just like, what is going on? They're like, this is bull crap. This is bull crap.
+
+[26:13] I didn't yeah, I I I thought I'd be making like beautiful cakes. Yeah. I went to college. What? Like that you get that a lot too, right?
+
+[26:19] Someone who's like like I worked like especially people who've career changers, right? They're like, they don't feel like do you ever have that happen? You have someone who's a career changer, comes in, doesn't feel like they should have to do all that? Um yeah, every once in a while. I mean m I would say more in the past.
+
+[26:33] Like in recent times, like I think people seem to like kinda get like working in a fine dining restaurant is going to be pretty tough. So I mean but the idea is though is that I mean everything you do down to cleaning the the the low boy out is actually uh a a quality thing in the end, right? It's like keeping the the quality high like there's no No no absolutely yeah. I mean so it's it's important. That's why like Yeah it's like cleaning out the low boy at the end of the night is is probably more important than being able to like roll fondant to a certain thickness to make a wedding cake, you know so someone who's gonna make it understands that there basically is nothing that's beneath them, right?
+
+[27:11] I mean there's not no nothing, nothing nothing at all. Like um yeah. So if if there's if if something's on the floor, grab a mop and clean it up, you know. So uh you know I know Dave Chang is com complains a lot about um the people coming out of cooking school nowadays saying that they're not willing to do all that stuff anymore. But you think that that's that's passing?
+
+[27:30] Uh I mean it really d it depends. I mean it depends on the person. Um it's uh it's almost like a case by case thing. Like sometimes sometimes you you you you get people that are like just complete all stars and like you're like wow where'd you come from? You came from space or something.
+
+[27:49] And then every once in a while you get someone who's like really doesn't get it at all. But I would say for the most part it's kind of like in the middle there. So and uh another thing that people don't think about is you know you you're going to a place, you're working for free, right? Which is it's kind of crazy. Not that many, you know, uh what would industries work that way.
+
+[28:07] Right. Where you're working like like a dog, getting yelled at uh and doing it for free, and long hours and many days a week, right? So okay. Um but on the other hand, the flip side is that um the restaurants also putting an investment in you as well because you might mess up product, you take time away from the cooks who have to explain things. Is there do you see that side of it too?
+
+[28:29] Like, do you feel that you're actually giving them something? Yeah, I mean, like when like in the past, like I I I mean, before I say before I worked at Del Posto, I did that all the time. Like I would I would work for weeks for free places, or if I found a place that I that I really wanted to be, I would do whatever I could to like just hang out there for work. I mean, yeah, I mean if if I could like log all the uh like free hours that I've worked in like the past 13 years or whatever, like I'd I could probably buy a house or something. In New York.
+
+[29:05] Wow, that's rough. Any uh any tips on uh how to get the most out of a stage? Um honestly it's just uh like you can totally tell after about an hour if someone's like gonna be an all-star and like they can you just know, like just the way I I usually just watch their hands. I think it's like a I think I heard um like Payard say that one time, like like just watch people's hands, like if they if they're constantly moving and constantly working, like um you know that they're gonna be like a good a good person to have on the team. So nice.
+
+[29:44] All right. So should we take another uh commercial break or push this? Take a commercial break. Alright, call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[30:10] This ample. Oh no. You make a choice. Now it's up to me. Whenever you call me, I'll be there.
+
+[30:48] Whenever you want me, I'll be there. Whenever you need me, I'll be there. I'll be around. That's a new one, huh? I like that, Jack.
+
+[31:10] Nice, Jack. Thanks. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. You have uh another couple of minutes to call your questions in for us or for Brooks at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[31:22] Not for me. You can ask. I just take care of issues. Well, uh, what is it when? I don't know.
+
+[31:29] We tried, but she sits there texting too much, so it's not. Wow. See, that's the thing. Like, here's the problem. Like, I'm like, I'm all nice, sweet, sugar, and candy.
+
+[31:39] That's that to me. No, well, that's also true. But until someone tries to call me out, like in a public situation, and then I'm just like, oh, really? The gloves are off. I hadn't realized that.
+
+[31:44] All right. That's kind of where I'm at with nostalgia, too. Wow. Boom! Anyway, uh well, we would love a we've had like we've had a couple of nostalgia questions, right?
+
+[32:00] So calling like, are you single? What's your sign? Yeah, I think. Your sign has changed, right? Aren't you on the didn't we talk about this?
+
+[32:08] Oh, geez. Let's not go by that. Oh my god. All right. Uh so if you have a legitimate question that's not asking Nastasha for a date, or about I mean, you can ask her why she hates everything that she ate growing up, or why she has such a conflicted relationship with uh, you know, the foods of Los Angeles.
+
+[32:27] You said that. Not me. Not me. Anyway, uh uh but you're welcome to call in for a question for her. Um so Naveen Sinha uh wrote in and he's uh one of the TAs, he might be the lead TA, is he?
+
+[32:39] I don't know. I think he's the lead. Uh of the uh Harvard class that uh Faron did last year, Faron Adria. And uh I'm going um to assist McGee actually on the first lecture of the new year coming up in September, which should be fun. Uh I don't know what I'm gonna do there, but something maybe you know, blow blow blow everyone up.
+
+[32:56] Everyone thinks I'm gonna go to places and blow everyone up, but I've never blown up another person. You know what I mean? I've never blown up someone other than myself. Um anyway. So Naveen writes in and says, Hi Dave, I'm fascinated by chocolate, especially the transformation from the bitter seeds, the cacao tree, uh, to a tasty chocolate bar.
+
+[33:14] That is a an a a very interesting transformation. Are there any other foods that undergo a similar set of steps? Fermentation, roasting, grinding. Also, do you know of any other tropical fruit seeds that could become delicious through such a process? Thanks, Naveen.
+
+[33:26] That's an interesting question. I mean, obviously, coffee, right? Coffee goes through uh, you know, a similar uh similar set of procedures, uh quite literally, uh, fermentation, drying, roasting, grinding, uh, brewing. Um vanilla goes through picking uh fermentation, right? It's dipped in usually in boiling water, uh, and then wilted and then fermented, so it's similar, and then I guess it can be ground to form a paste.
+
+[33:55] But vanilla doesn't taste like vanilla until it goes through its its uh its paces um to be fermented. And in fact, the vanilla that's uncured is called red vanilla. You can get it. Uh it's interesting, but it's not it doesn't taste like uh vanilla. Uh I don't know offhand, although I'm gonna do some research because we're gonna do a tropical fruit tasting in July, so uh we we could do some do some tests, but I don't know of any other tropical fruit seeds other than those that go through these kinds of processes.
+
+[34:22] Any have you ever heard of anything that goes what else goes through that kind of no, I mean like uh that tea, tea leaves, right? Tea leaves go through a fermentation process like that. I mean, there's olives, but that's not fully like the same kind of process, but still have to be like processed to make them edible. So right. I mean, yeah, I mean, is that the thing is is is it just uh yeah, is it things that need to be processed to make edible?
+
+[34:47] There are a lot of things like that, right? But I'd have to think more about it. It's an interesting question. I like the whole like I'm fascinated by uh how we figured out that, for instance, ackey fruit will kill you if you eat it unless the pods open up all the way and the fruit's ripe. Some dude must Akifruit is you know the like kind of the national fruit of Jamaica.
+
+[35:06] Aki, how would you say it? Is that the A Q C A? A C A-C-K-E-E. Akian saltfish is like the classic. But you can only buy canned ackee here in New York, as far as I know, I've never seen fresh acke.
+
+[35:20] And um, but if you eat it uh and it hasn't opened up, it's poisonous. But if you and you shouldn't eat it at all, apparently if you're pregnant. Uh but uh Akeen saltfish is one of the Jamaican national dishes. So some dude ate a like probably a whole tree's worth of ripe acke, right? And was like, this dove is good.
+
+[35:38] You know what I mean? And then like his buddy picked it too early and died. And it was like, oh, yeah, you know, don't do that. Um so anyway, I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, Naveen. So we will look uh more uh into different things like this, and people call and write in with your with your various various you know, fermentation and deadly poison things.
+
+[35:58] Alright. So uh I think being posted this week on Eater is gonna be our our burger extravaganza. Is that true, Nastasha? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[36:07] Today. So um so basically, eaters doing like a whole, they have some sort of like burger festival week, some crap. I don't know. What not cra it's not crap, you know what I mean? Some burger festival.
+
+[36:18] Everything's crap. I say crap a lot. Anyway. Uh, and so they wanted some sort of fantabulous fancy burger, but it turns out that the burgers that I typically like to make aren't that fancy. My favorite, one of my favorite burgers is patty melt.
+
+[36:29] I think patty melt is delicious burger. Patty melt, for those of you not hip to patty melts, patty melt is rye bread. Uh it's gotta be a rye bread, right? Yeah, rye bread. If it's not rye bread, it's like a something else melt, right?
+
+[36:40] Right. It's like it's like a grilled cheese with a burger slid inside. Right. I mean, it might be delicious, but it's not a patty melt, right? Right?
+
+[36:46] Anyway. Uh caramelized onions, Swiss cheese, and the whole thing, you cook the burger, and then you put it in and you cook it like a grilled cheese sandwich with the onions, so the bread gets toasted with you know, mashed with butter. Fantastic. I like mine with ketchup, delicious. So I did a slightly high-tech version of a patty melt where it was all pretty much traditional, except I cooked the burger low temperature in a Ziploc bag in butter and made the burger thicker than it normally was.
+
+[37:13] And I I grilled it like a grilled cheese sandwich with the onions and then separated it and put the burger in between so the burger didn't actually get smashed, but the bread did. I thought it was good. I thought it was delicious. But eater came back and they're like, listen, we wanted something wacky. We went to you not for something that just to taste good.
+
+[37:30] We want something that's wacky, so then they had to go reshoot something that was wackier. Is this true or false? Yeah. True. Yeah.
+
+[37:36] So I was like, all right, well, I wanted to keep some of the patty melt uh stuff, so uh I was like, okay, we're still gonna use the rye bread, we're still gonna do grilled cheese. But uh I'm gonna add uh meat glued bacon sheets, right? So we you know we mean we made the sheets uh out of bacon laminate with meat glue, vacuum it down, uh, and then we cut everything into rings so that it all looked perfect because we figured that was fancier and wackier. So the the rye bread was cut into a ring. We then took conte, which is like gruyere, and uh cut it into a ring, and then the bacon sheets cut into a ring, and then so that was the basis of the grilled cheese sandwich.
+
+[38:09] We didn't put the caramelized onions on it this time, so it was bacon, grill, all made like a grilled cheese sandwich. The burger, we also took pickle sheets and turned them like you would Japanese style with like an usuba, Grace did, or intern Grace did that, and they cut that into a ring so that you had a ring-shaped pickle that was the size of the burger, which was nice. And then for the burger to make it all fantabulously fancy dancy, we reduced veal stock down until it was really thick and beefy, and the gelatin was really, you know, very strong. Added ketchup to it, added calcium lactate gluconate, right? Set it into a sheet, uh, cut the sheets into uh rings, and then threw those into alginate.
+
+[38:46] So that formed a layer around the gelatin. So now we have like a little hockey puck of uh of uh beef ketchup gelatin with a layer of alginate around. We chose alginate because it's a little bit tough. It's gonna needs to withstand this kind of rough handling, and it's also uh heat proof. So then we built a burger around that uh around that sheet of uh of uh that like gilet, and then low temp fried it to set it, low temp cooked that in butter and then roasted it over charcoal to get a nice charcoal outside, put that in between.
+
+[39:16] And when you cut the burger, it's like a soup dumpling, it explodes ketchup and and veal stock all over the plate. And uh the we did one without when you do it with a bun, it like sprays out a little bit, kinda like when you take a cherry tomato and you bite it, and like if you don't close your mouth when you do it, you spray your buddy. You know what I'm talking about? Anyway, uh kind of like that. But when we did it by itself, it was kind of like almost obscene.
+
+[39:37] We we just cut a burger and it was like it like shot up like a fountain, like the like the like the burger couldn't hold it in, I'll put it that way. Okay. So uh so that's the I don't know what they're gonna use from that. I don't know what they're gonna use from that. Um it's actually gonna be online today.
+
+[39:55] I f well supposedly like a photo is there a photo of it of it of it exploding? Uh there's a video, so there might be I mean I would actually prefer like I I'm a firm believer, and by the way, uh it's it goes back to when I was doing art for uh you know, trying to do art for a living, and uh we're in a uh cooking issues in an art show now. I'm in an art show at Columbia. I just put a post up today on the blog. So you can go look at the post on the blog and see what we put into the art show, including something about our uh our uh you know, someone we met in California, Roy Fong, who owns the uh Imperial Tea Court and does a lot of really interesting stuff with tea, including he's gonna he's growing his own tea on a tea farm in California, which I think is really cool and uh unprecedented.
+
+[40:29] Anyway, so uh uh where this goes yeah supposedly there's gonna be a video but when I was doing art sometimes a good still photo is better than a video like if you just had like a sick still photo of the burger with the sh stuff shooting out of the top of it and you caught it like just as it was like in midair like somehow that's more badass than the video of it happening. Because it's very hard I mean these guys are good so I'm sure it's good but like if for me it was very hard to get videos that were as compelling as a good still shot. Like I always preferred the one good still shot like take the video and then choose the one awesome still from it and put that up I don't know. It's like it seems to me because then your mind fills in the rest of everything. You don't need you don't need the actual whole whole video a lot of the times.
+
+[41:11] But this this is my theory as it when I was doing uh performance art anyway. So what else we do last week, Nastash did we go to Martha last week? Yeah why don't you talk about that why don't you talk about it because apparently you don't you know you can't you can't be bothered not to lean back in your chair with the gangster league the stash has got a serious gangster lien going on in the in the studio. Talk about it too. Alright so uh Martha Stewart wanted a centrifuge we bought her the damn centrifuge and I fixed it and then uh it was a nice one I paid I think like I don't know 300 bucks or something like that which was her limit uh on eBay.
+
+[41:44] Yes yes she only wanted to pay $300 for the centrifuge which is like you know I've paid more for dinner and she that's what she wanted anyway whatever. So we bring it to her uh studio and she wants to learn about it and the one we bring when we show up sucker literally breaks. And I was like, you know, this happens with stuff that you get off of eBay. Like, even though I fixed one problem, there was another problem in the machine, and it turned out that it's an it's a nine hundred dollar, it's a nine hundred dollar problem to fix. So I was like, oh man, crap.
+
+[42:14] So we ended up taking well what does Nastasha describe the situation. We were both pleased. Wow, that's that's all you're gonna that's it. That's all Nastasha's gonna say. She was not pleased.
+
+[42:28] Wow. Alright. Yeah. And so basically I gave her the hardest part is that you're like singing and laughing to yourself and talking to yourself. What am I supposed to do?
+
+[42:39] Sit there and look depressed because the machine is broken? Brooks. But I'm am I supposed to look depressed? Tell me that. What am I supposed to do?
+
+[42:47] Am I supposed to I don't have a hair shirt with me that I can put on. What's a hair shirt? Yeah. What's a hair shirt? She's this woman who's not used to punishing herself.
+
+[42:55] That's why she hasn't, you know. That's why she hasn't, you know. She's you know, Catholic too, doesn't know what hair crazy. Anyway. So uh yeah, you know, uh I didn't have something to beat myself with.
+
+[43:06] I didn't bring, like, you know, the the the you know, the little small whip to like whip my back and apologize that the $300 centrifuge that we had spent hours fixing broke again. She did not throw it. She did. She did not. She said, I'm gonna need to get my money back, Dave.
+
+[43:23] Do you remember that? No, you made that up. I swear on a few. I did not hear that. Well, thank God.
+
+[43:30] Anyway, so uh I gave her a different centrifuge, and so hopefully she's happy with it because she has it now, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, we haven't heard anything. I haven't heard of it. So hop hopefully she's happy with it, but now I'm stuck.
+
+[43:40] We have what's uh what what was she gonna do with it? What's what's her plans for it? I don't know. They thought she was gonna make baby food. Because she just had a baby.
+
+[43:48] But she did not have a baby. First of all, like I don't know how much it is his privilege, and we're too here talking about like Martha listens. Martha, if you're listening, I'm sorry. This has been Cooking Issues Vicious Visions. Oh, you didn't.
+
+[44:17] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. In the next few weeks, Heritage Foods USA will be offering an interesting variety of amazing products, ranging from top quality seafood to their famous pork cuts. At the end of May, the Heritage team will go up to Maine to harvest fresh lobster with sustainable lobster meat. These delicious lobster are a perfect way to kick off the summer season. In the pork department, Heritage Foods USA will offer the maple cured smoked boneless heritage ham at an unbeatable price.com or call 718-389-0985.
+
+[0:37] That's 718-389-0985 to place your order with Andrea or Ashley. Don't forget to sign up for the email list and to check them on Facebook and Twitter to get in on their new products, deals, and offers from Heritage Foods USA. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez is not here today because she is in Brimfield shopping for antiques.
+
+[1:16] Nastasha, word to the wise, Brimfield was cool before eBay. No insult to the Brimfield folks, right? No insult. We're also here in the studio with Chad Solomon and Christy Pope from the I guess newly renamed Cuffs and Buttons. It used to be singular and now it's plural or it was always plural and I've just always said it wrong.
+
+[1:31] No, it's it used to be singular. Now it's plural because we're plural people. Alright, cool. So uh call in all of your questions, cooking, and uh hopefully today uh a lot of drink related questions too. 718 497 2128.
+
+[1:43] That's 718 497 2128. We'll be here for about the next 45 minutes. So uh uh uh Chad and Christy are an interesting uh group because they are one of the only like hardcore, like world-class like bartender couples that I know. Is that true? Do you know any others?
+
+[1:59] I would say the only other two are would be uh Anastasia Miller and Jared Brown. Oh yes, yes. All right. They live somewhere else. Yeah, they they jumped in.
+
+[2:08] Yeah, yeah, that doesn't count. They don't count. And uh and also they're like are they actually were they like like working bartender types, or are they are they just like like intelligentsia of drinking? I think intelligentsia, right? At one time um before we knew them, both of them had bartended.
+
+[2:23] Yeah. In fact, Jared worked with Dale, our worked as a waiter at the Rainbow Room uh during lunch service while Dale was there, but bartended at an at another establishment at that time. And by the way, for those of you not hip to like the recent history of uh cocktails, we're talking about uh Dale de Groff, who um kind of uh was fair to say started bringing back uh good cocktails in the rainbow room in the when was it the 860s? Yeah, late 80s. So uh like the entire country and probably the world, a a cultural wasteland of crappy cocktails.
+
+[2:57] Uh Dale uh um teams up with uh why is his name? My name's popping out of my head. The guy who owned the rainbow room started at the end of the room. Joe Bowen. Yeah, there you go.
+
+[3:04] Like that, boom, they're right there with it. Uh basically says, uh, you know, along with Dale, hey, why don't we have real drinks here? And then uh and that's the start, and and everything has kind of stemmed from that. I mean that it's hard to find an like a real bartender here or abroad, really, that doesn't trace some sort of route back to that moment where uh Dale was like, let's make some good drinks again. I would say that Dale's important to us as well, simply because uh he's Chad, I'll let you tell the story, but that's how we got our name.
+
+[3:33] Um was through a story that Dale had told us what on one of the original meetings that we had with him. He he he re uh recounted the story, uh the etymology of the name Cuffs and Buttons and how it uh was an old uh New Orleans cocktail created in 1873. Um and that bartender over time well he'd he named the drink cuffs and buttons at the time because of a competing drink called White Ties and Tails. And um in the by the eighteen eighties, there was the international cotton exposition held in New Orleans, and with all the international visitors coming into town, he's like, nobody's gonna understand this white ties and tails, cuffs and buttons thing. So they changed the name of Southern Comfort.
+
+[4:10] Southern Comfort then went on to become a much bigger brand in the 20th century. Braun Foreman bought it and they really dropped, you know, the cuffs and buttons, and it was just kind of a historical footnote. We loved the name because of the kind of formality and the it's a very uh kind of uh visual connotation that comes, you know, cuffs and buttons, and it worked really well when we were looking to, you know, name a cocktail catering company as we started out. Right. What is now sold as Southern Comfort was one of the first things I ever got sick on.
+
+[4:38] Oh yeah. Not surprising. Yeah. Uh oh, actually, uh this might be interesting before we get into some hardcore questioning and tasting actually, is uh did you guys meet like after you were bartending? These guys have worked at like all the like a lot of the great bars here in in New York and all over the country.
+
+[4:55] So you you have milk and honey, you uh Pegu, right? Where where else? Uh like everywhere. It's like you can't even flat Iron Lounge. Yeah.
+
+[5:03] Flat Iron Lounge and Little Branch, yeah. Yeah, but it's not oh yeah, it's not like oh they they worked there for like a day and a half, like everywhere, like these are like they started these, they they were like on the opening teams on these places. So this is like not a this is a no joke, like this is a real deal homie uh situation. And did you guys meet while you were doing that or beforehand? Uh it was actually kind of a fortuitous uh circumstances, but um I was working at Milk and Honey.
+
+[5:24] I started there uh in its second year, um, which was in two thousand one, and it was I got hired the Thursday before 911. Ooh. So uh yeah nine eleven happened and obviously everything below 14th Street was just a stalemate for a period of time. You couldn't even get down there. Yeah exactly I lived in Chinatown so it's like I used to have to carry my electric bill with me to to get into my house because there was always armed guards and but um so I was working down there uh 9 11 happened business was slow I needed a supplementary job so I had a friend who knew the manager at a place called the cellar bar which is in the Bryant Park hotel.
+
+[6:01] So um I went to interview there and uh that's how I met Chad. He was interviewing on the same day that I was yeah so I walked in I I had previously had not bartended ever um and had been working in film and um when the obviously when 911 happened it kind of they shut down all filming indefinitely because you know the resources need to be diverted due to the the the incident. So I jumped behind a bar, met Christy there and ironically the person who got me the job at the cellar bar was uh he said oh there's this bar in the lower east side called Milk and Honey and he said something you'd really respond to and he kind of described it to me and I'd heard of it but really didn't necessarily understand what it was. But he's like you learn how to make really amazing drinks and it's got rules and you know you have to have a reservation to get in there. And it didn't really until you went in there and and saw it and did it at the time it didn't make sense entirely.
+
+[6:54] So the Sasha didn't need anybody at that time. So I went to the Bryant Park hotel made it a little bit Sasha being the person who started building. Yeah, Sasha Sasha Petrosky. And uh it worked out because Christy and I got hired the same day. We didn't actually know that, but we worked together, I think, for the first time a couple of weeks later, and uh she's like, you know, we're like, what else do you do?
+
+[7:12] She's like, Oh, I also work at the spar at this bar milk and Honey, yada yada. And was shortly after that I she took me in there for the first time, and you know, it was just kind of a Eureka moment. Oh, there's something going on here. These drinks are completely different than anything you I've tried. These bartenders are working in a way that I've never seen.
+
+[7:29] Why are they doing this? And it just the questions just such a juxtaposition having both experiences working at milk and honey and a place like Cellar Bar at the same time. Not that Cellar Bar was a bad bar, it was just a totally different style of bar experience, you know, much more common to what people think of, you know, completely not uh craft cocktail bar in the sense that milk and honey. Yeah, volume oriented, yeah, high fashion, very flashy crowd, you know. Yeah.
+
+[7:55] And there begins the journey. I think we actually have a caller. I wonder whether hopefully it's a drink question. Well, whatever the question is, we'll take it, right? Caller, you were on the air.
+
+[8:03] Hey Dave, it's not a drink question. I have a question about cellulose. Okay. I uh saw that there was a uh Washington or the Wall Street Journal about uh how they're adding cellulose could bulk up food and make it creamier. I was wondering what extent can we make food completely from cellulose?
+
+[8:18] Like, can we have cellulose pasta and cellulose bread? I mean, just something that basically gives us all that fiber but doesn't make us fat. They used to do that all the time, and I remember when I was a kid looking at the kind of low calorie bread, I always had a kind of a chub issue growing up. Yeah, my whole family, like we we YOY weight, that's how we work, the Arnolds. And um, I remember looking at the thing, and uh my dad was like, they grind up trees and put them into the bread.
+
+[8:42] Because the cellulose is not actually the case. They usually probably make it out of cotton, like waste cotton, really, you know, whatever, if they put it in. But you could basically bulk it up up to the point where uh where she don't taste good anymore. You know, I mean? Because you d you can't digest it 'cause you you know, if you were a cow and you had a whole bunch of stomachs with a bunch of bacteria in it, then you could digest it, right?
+
+[9:00] But you can't. So the limit is just a limit at which it no longer tastes good. They they chop up the cellulose very finely, like microcrystalline cellulose, so it can hold water pretty well, but it doesn't provide structure the same way that flour or or or protein uh you know uh protein and flour can or even the starch when they're linking together. So um the the limit is strictly one of like, you know, however much it's basically just a filler that they're adding. Does that make sense?
+
+[9:26] Yeah I I understand I'm just wondering how what's the max you could put in there before it won't hold together. You know the gluten wouldn't completely I've never tried it but I'm sure what they if I was gonna try to make uh like a a cellulose bread what I would do is I would I would dope it with a bunch of cellulose and then dope it with vital wheat gluten and then but I mean it would be some I don't think it would taste good now mind you. I think it would taste bad. But I don't know what the up limit is. I mean it's um because the cellulose I don't know probably doesn't have much taste.
+
+[9:56] I don't know what it's gonna do on a t I'm not saying it's gonna taste bad. My recollection because I did buy that bread was that it wasn't as good as the normal bread I was buying. But this is just a recollection now. Just a recollection. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[10:08] And I had a question uh I just saw that there was a book that came out called uh why we're fat, I believe and uh basically said that uh carbs regulate insulin and therefore regulate the uptake of fat. So I was wondering if uh you were to go on a low carb diet, what would you uh supplant most of your your diet with? Like what kind of meals, what kind of like you know ethnic dishes that are low carb and you know you could eat every day. Oh jeeze. Yeah.
+
+[10:36] Uh I mean I I tend uh I tend not to believe any sort of kind of uh um diet, um any sort of d diet thing, especially one that is like uh that gives up one nutrient for another because I think that you you're gonna a lot of times you're gonna end up not being satisfied. A lot of these diets do work in the short term. Uh, but I think um and and of course there are people who are huge advocates of low carbs, there's people who are advocates of low, low fat. Um I w I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend a uh like a uh like a moderate uh consumption of a moderate amount of of widely varied diet.
+
+[11:12] Now that said, I have in the past I I used to do a diet, really unhealthy diet. Don't everyone out don't think worse of me here. I went on a diet called blunch. I this is my own diet, blunch. 'Cause because when you when you're when you combine breakfast and lunch and you mean to do it, that's brunch, right?
+
+[11:27] That's a good thing. Brunch is a good thing. You know, we have mimosas or whatever. You guys probably hate mimosas. I like them at brunch.
+
+[11:32] Brunch is brunch. Anyway, maybe bloody mary, whatever, brunch. Blunch, right, is when you don't do it because it's fun. You do it because you're just grinding through it. So what I would do is I would have one meal uh a day before dinner, and the first time I blunched, it was a bagel with nothing on it, and then I would eat nothing until dinner, and then I would eat a normal dinner with my family because that makes me a social human being.
+
+[11:56] So to me being social is the most important thing. So I would eat a normal dinner and eat one thing during the day. I lost a lot of muscle mass on on the on that, and it was really kind of bad, bad news for me, and I ended up actually having to go to the doctor and like have a bunch of awful procedures done to check to make sure that I didn't have cancer because I was bleeding from uh unspeakable places. But uh it did work. The the second time that I did bl and also you're a raging jerk when the dinner time comes around because you're and and you smell like like crap because you're you're s totally ketotic and you're you're breathing out like what smells like s like like fumes of death out of your mouth at the end of the day.
+
+[12:32] Uh the second time I did it, because it it it is effective, it's all about being regimented. I I ate only two eggs. Two hard boiled eggs. I was like, okay, two hard boiled eggs. I lost less muscle mass on that one, but I still was a huge jerk.
+
+[12:45] So I would recommend to be social if you if you know if so being social is important to you, which it is to me. Like I I'm not recommending going on the blunch diet, but I'm saying be very, very, very regimented. If you want to cut down your carbs, be extremely regimented during the day. It's very easy to plan out your weekly meals, especially your lunch and your breakfast. Be extremely regimented.
+
+[13:03] Give yourself no choices. If there's no choices, you won't stray. Then if you stray a little bit at dinner, at least you look like a human being with your family. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I was thinking about getting into I I think it's uh Middle Eastern breakfast they call it full.
+
+[13:16] Yeah, full, like full like uh be like uh beans, like uh like uh fava beans, full Medimas. Yeah. Right, right. That stuff is delicious. That'd be something good to supplant the whole day.
+
+[13:29] And even my kids used to eat the heck out of that stuff. Full Well, you know, beans in a can. Beans in a can are one of the few things in a can that are good. You know what I mean? Uh you supplement it with your own stuff that you know that you add it, but like, you know, I'm no I'm no uh I'm no hater on on canned beans.
+
+[13:44] I mean I know how to make my own beans. Are you guys haters on canned beans? We we eat 'em all the time. I'm no hater. No hater.
+
+[13:50] But yes, I mean I'm sure it's gonna be better if you make it from scratch. But if you make a batch at the beginning of the week, let's say, then you can have it. I mean it's it's it for me it wouldn't be reasonable to make myself uh uh a real breakfast every day. I can't. I can't.
+
+[14:03] You know what I mean? Does this make sense? Is this helpful at all? Alright, cool. Uh one last thing.
+
+[14:09] Where's the uh like a good online site to get uh used uh restaurant equipment? I'm not talking about like uh stoves and things like that, but I mean like hotel pans and used and stuff like that. Online it's tough for small items like that. I mean, eBay obviously is good, um, and I use it all the time for certain things. The best thing to do if you're in a major city, unfortunately, restaurants and bars go out of business all the time.
+
+[14:32] When they go out of business, they auction off. What happens is usually everyone at the end of the of the business is so pissed off and everyone owes everyone else money. So basically you steal whatever you want and then you walk out. And so what happens is is uh someone goes in, whoever has the lease, whoever's owed the most money, goes in, hires an auctioneer, and you go in there and you can buy everything at like pennies, pennies on a dollar. And so you'll you you can buy pans like hotel pants.
+
+[15:01] You have to buy like 20. You know what I mean? Because it's like, okay, we got a lot of 20 hotel pants, and you're like 50 cents. He's like 50 cents, you crazy 50 cents a dollar. You're like, okay, a dollar, and then you have to buy all 20 for 20 bucks.
+
+[15:13] That's how it works. Uh but those are usually in the back of the paper. They used to be in the back of the Health Wanted's in the New York Times on every Sunday, but I don't know where they are now because my wife has forbidden me from going to the street. There's a couple websites that announce those as well. Oh really?
+
+[15:23] Yeah, they're probably all based on the web now. They used to be in the newspaper back when people read newspapers. But do you guys buy it auction? I I used to all the time, but you know what? Uh my mom just started a business doing that.
+
+[15:33] So I've just recently started doing it. It's it's a lot of fun. No, yeah, it's cra it's crazy. It's really weird. It's it's like re fun because you're getting cheap stuff, but at the same time, it's depressing.
+
+[15:42] Usually like someone from the restaurant is there with their face in their hands, and like, you know, you know, someone like me is like, you know, I'll buy all the liquor from the bar, and they're like, Do you have your liquor license with you? And you're like, uh Yeah, it can be depressing. Like buying used bar stools can be a depressing thing. But oh man, but I've been there many times. Uh anyway, thank you so much for the call.
+
+[16:07] I think we're actually gonna go to our first break and we're gonna come back and taste some stuff that you guys brought, right? Yep. Cooking issues about the star, yeah. That may not be fun, yeah. What's the single master clear?
+
+[16:55] In the sky so very strong, yeah. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 coming to you today with Chad Solomon and Christy Poe from Cuffs and Buttons here tasting some of their fantabulous stuff. Tell me what we're tasting.
+
+[18:36] By the way, you guys feel like chumpsuckers for not being able to taste it with us, am I right? Yeah, totally. First up here is a mint chocolate lactart soda, which is a mouthful, I know. Uh it's a drink that we created for an event that we did a couple of weeks ago uh for Magnum bars uh from Europe, European chocolate ice cream bars. And uh they commissioned us to create three drinks for the event uh that ha you know happened uh coincided with the Tribeca Film Festival.
+
+[19:01] Carl Lagerfeld shot three short films uh inspired by Magnum uh with uh Starlight Rachel Bilson as kind of his muse. And they screened these uh shorts at this event, and we provided these cocktails. And this is uh a cocktail where we actually took your technique of the rapid uh nitrous infusion and infused cacao nibs into VSOP cognac and Highland Park 12 Scotch. So uh Louis Royer, uh VSOP Cognac, Highland Park 12 Scotch with cacao nibs, and then uh the streak features lactart, which is uh extinct acid of milk that's been reborn and uh acts as a fantastic acid in the especially with the chocolate. It works really nicely with the chocolate, I think.
+
+[19:43] Right. And uh and the wood. Yeah, and one of the reasons that we really wanted to use it is when people come to you with certain flavors they want to work with. For for us in this instance, it was like chocolate, vanilla, you know, um all those kind of things that are very cloying in a cocktail at times. And this this allowed us to make you know that rich chocolate feel, you know, kind of creamy feel too, but without getting like cloing and sweet.
+
+[20:06] Overly heavy. And what's interesting about it is it's it's carbonated for all you can't taste it. Uh but um it's one of the few um kind of wooded carbonated drinks that I really like. You know what I mean? That's really because a lot of times, you know, you you you get like these kind of uh these mixes and you carbonate it and it can throw the throw the balance off and like the woods can go all out of proportion.
+
+[20:26] It could be a problem. But here I think it really works. And I think these also because these are foreign woods. You know, you have the Highland Park 12 or aged in the cherry casks and uh the the French oak, obviously on the VSO P cognac, whereas the like bourbons and ries are much more aggressive American oak. Yeah, I don't like them at all, usually carbonated.
+
+[20:45] I mean like the the worst drink maybe I've ever made, with the exception of in college, the worst drink I think I've ever made is uh carbonated Manhattan. It's an above. Um, so that was that was super cool. It's one of the drinks we did for that event. Um next up here, we just did uh uh a pretty fun project with uh smell it.
+
+[21:02] What's that uh what's that fruit? This is uh creme de muir. Uh it's merlay, creme de mure. So our friend Tony Cnigliaro in London. Good man, good man.
+
+[21:10] Worked with uh Luke Merlay to uh develop and create cocktails with their line of liqueurs in Europe. I have some stories about him that I can't say on the air. Does it involve an alligator hat? Or involves some crazy, crazy business. Anyway.
+
+[21:27] Uh uh Luke Merlet came to us and we did the uh cocktail development here for the States. And so this in particular is the creme de mure, the blackberry liqueur that we've turned into a phosphate soda. So it's the it's as soon as you open it, it's something we carbonate it again. Obviously, all those volatiles just come explode into the room with the carbonation. This is gin, uh tangra gin, acid phosphate, creme de mure, dash of orange bitters, uh four ounces of water, and then we carbonate it at uh 50 psi.
+
+[21:57] Nice. So acid phosphate, for those of you out, there's another one of these kind of extinct things is being brought back to the fore by uh a guy named Darcy O'Neal. His website's The Art of the Drink. He has a uh a uh book called uh Fix the Pumps, which uh is uh old soda jerk slang for look at the lady with the uh with the with the large chest. Yes.
+
+[22:13] Um extremely interesting book. He's bringing some of these old ingredients back. Um acid phosphate, the main uh component of it is uh phosphoric acid, and it's the acid that's in Coca-Cola and colas, and its characteristic is it's an extremely dry acid. It's actually if you get it in pure form, which is the way I have it, I don't have the acid phosphate. It's really hard to work with because if you go a little bit too far, you're like, boo!
+
+[22:36] Ho, hey! But it's like it's very interesting stuff, and I think it really works well with this with this drink. Do you find the same thing that sometimes it's hard to work with? That's it. Well, there is a big difference when uh we carbonated it ourselves versus using like a club soda, like the way it comes off on the palate.
+
+[22:52] So I mean, yeah, absolutely. I know what you you're referring to it. I would say this, there's you know, uh quarter ounce of acid phosphate in this, and that's the high end. Generally, depending on the drink, you get by with as much as a half teaspoon. Right.
+
+[22:59] So and you can get this stuff from from the art of the drink, right? Right. If it's a mail order from uh Toronto. Right. And uh and the the characteristic of this acid, and it's one of the acids that should see uh uh hopefully a resurgence, is it's it's dry cola-like nature of the acidity.
+
+[23:19] Not the flavor of cola, but that dry cola-like acidity. No, the the beauty is uh uh and you know, as opposed to lemon or lime juice, which have a very imposing flavor uh on their own, this ha brings that uh acidity to the drink, but it's very um it does not impose itself. It allows other, you know, flavors to come through very clean. Right. And as the only kind of inorganic acid we use and non-fruit-based acid, it doesn't lend an extra fruit note to the to the drink, which is uh something that's really it's kind of it's kind of cool.
+
+[23:50] And very nice drink. What's the name of that again? This uh which is uh blackberry phosphate. All right. Very simple.
+
+[23:56] We actually did a line for for as Chad mentioned, we did this for Malay liqueurs and we did phosphates for for every uh flavor expression of the liqueur brands, and it they all turned out wonderful. Different base spirits, different balances. Uh because obviously with the with the fruit liqueurs, they're you know, being a natural product, they're depending on how acidic or sweet the fruit is, they adjust the sugar. Oh oh wait, we have a call. Before I go to the collar though, I have to say, like I think and I see whether you guys agree, like e even if okay, when you're mixing a drink, a lot of times you obviously you're gonna use the real fruit, right?
+
+[24:30] Sure. But I think having the acids on board on hand and tasting and playing with them gives you such a sense for what's going on with different fruits and different acids. Like like studying the acids that you use in a drink, because it's such an important component, I think, is don't you think it's key to kind of becoming a better mixer? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
+
+[24:48] I mean, the more options you have, the more kind of the more your understanding is across the board. Right. And by the way, uh, I'm gonna take the call in one second. But um the the f phosph um uh phosphoric acid gets a bad rap because uh uh if you drink it in very large quantities, it's a it can take calcium. And so people say that women shouldn't have too much phosphoric acid because it can reduce bone density.
+
+[25:09] I haven't seen any studies that moderate amounts of phosphoric acid are de detrimental. Um otherwise everyone who drinks cola would be dead. Well the other thing about acid phosphate and what makes it um more approachable to work with is the fact that it's partially neutralized. Uh it's you start with 10% phosphoric acid in solution and it's neutralized down to two percent with through uh calcium, magnesium, and potassium mineral salts. Yeah, because the phosphate will grip onto the calcium.
+
+[25:35] Right. Jack, did we lose the call or we still have them? No. Well, hopefully they call back. Maybe they got cut off with their with their cell phones.
+
+[25:42] They got thirsty. They got their they were like, oh, all this talk about drinks. Oh hopefully they hopefully they call back. All right, so what's our what's our next beverage? Uh so this next one is uh cocktail we're presenting uh we'll be serving at the upcoming uh MCC Manhattan Cocktail Classic opening gala on Friday night.
+
+[25:59] Which I'm working at too, you know. Sweet, yeah. And there's tickets still available. Really? Yeah, they're tickets still available.
+
+[26:04] Go uh okay. Not to plug an event that we're all working here, but uh I didn't go to the party last year. Apparently it was a good thing. Neither did we really, but I heard it was like the most insane party of like all crazy the entire New York Public Library, run amok, craziness, things falling, dwarves. Well, it's a pretty it's a pretty huge event.
+
+[26:22] 120 different bars, uh, you know, 120 different bars, different cocktails, bartenders serving individual drinks. Um, real glassware, black tie. We overtake the New York Public Library. But the scope of it is pretty big. You know what I'm doing for it?
+
+[26:36] I'm doing the non-alcoholic drinks. So I'm gonna I'm I'm taking five-gallon corny kegs, I'm strapping them onto a backpack, I'm filling them with soda water, and I have two uh soda valves, like the the squeeze valves and nice beckers. I'm gonna be running around like uh like uh like soda cowboy, like spraying soda. It's gonna be good. Good business.
+
+[26:54] I have a little uh 20-ounce CO2 um container that I'm filling with a nitrous soda mix, nitrous uh CO2 soda mix to keep myself pressurized as I walk around. Should be fun. Hydration man. I have hydration man. Hydration man.
+
+[27:06] Uh yeah, it's the first time I've ever done a non-alcoholic. Should be fun. So the soda stuff is so fun for non-alcoholic. It's good to visit Dave after, like, you know, you go to a booth, then you visit Dave. You go to a booth, then you visit Dave.
+
+[27:19] Exactly. Well, hopefully I can come I can come visit you. Well, uh yeah, it depends how many people I have working with me, whether or not I can uh how much uh you know I can walk around. Jack, do we ever get those guys back? No.
+
+[27:30] Um all right. I'm sorry, caller, that you got disconnected. Please call back. Uh what are we what are we drinking here? So this is a Byzantine julep.
+
+[27:37] It's uh Laird's Bonded Apple Jack. We are be going to be uh working at the Laird and Company bar. I wish you could smell this. So it's uh Laird's Bonded Apple Brandy, the 100 proof. Um an excellent product, an American product, one of the great American products.
+
+[27:50] The oldest native distilled spirit. They're coming up on 300 years. Um still family owned. Still family, ninth generation. Right.
+
+[27:59] I love their product, except for they also make some of the worst products in the world. They don't sell into their own name, but I've seen their little thing like uh don't they make Senators Club vodka? It's our personal favorite is uh five o'clock vodka. So we love five five o'clock. In Detroit, they mix it with uh with uh Fago uh orange soda and uh and if you have enough of them, they say uh you it's uh you're on your way to dance o'clock.
+
+[28:22] Oh man, man. Laird. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. So uh bonded apple brandy, coriander tincture, uh mint, uh uh a little bit of malic acid, and um oh uh date date syrup, date, um date molasses and demerara syrup mixed together.
+
+[28:40] This will actually be serving this julep style over crushed ice, which so this will be a little bit better. That's a pain that's a pain in the buttons better diluted. Uh like crushed ice or they're gonna get it. Yeah, it's oh they're bringing it in, yeah. Oh yeah, all right.
+
+[28:50] Yeah. This is a really deep, deep tasting drink. It has a really kind of like a real big depth of flavor, and uh it's uh uh none of the components really kind of um pop out as being over over the top. You know what I mean? I think it's very well integrated.
+
+[29:03] And um I think maybe it's that maybe the depth is coming from the date. What do you think? Oh, definitely. Yeah. This drink was actually inspired by a trip that we took to Turkey.
+
+[29:12] Um so we're using some of those kind of you know, m more cool eastern flavors in there, and and it does have that total like unique depth to it. Yeah. The we also do a very slow roast on the Moroccan coriander seed and uh before we put it into or to make the tincture, and so that has a real depth and roundness to it itself. Coriander's weird. It's so interesting because you can get so many different flavors out of it depending on how you treat it, whether you toast it, whether you don't, whether you put it in a syrup, whether you do a tincture.
+
+[29:42] I've done some distillates for it for I did for Jimmy and I did a dissolute for him, and it was a totally different flavor. Like the distillate brought out uh a lot more of the kind of those kind of high citrusy notes, you know what I mean? And like uh the and not a lot of some of those base notes that you're gonna get out of a tincture. Yeah, coriander's a great, great, great thing. Yeah, it's incredibly versatile.
+
+[30:02] And good in a soda. Yeah, I'm gonna do a coriander soda. Uh one of uh one of the people I work with, Cliff was like, let's do a coriander soda. I was like, nah, I haven't heard of that before. Let's do it.
+
+[30:12] We'll do it. Do it. So it's coriander, and we're gonna round out the uh, you know, the mid-palette. If you just do straight coriander on a soda, the mid-pallate's lacking a little bit. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna hit it with um with some malic and citric to bring up the kind of citrusy notes of it, acid.
+
+[30:27] And then we're adding a touch of um Thai chili pepper because a little bit of spice brings it to that kind of gingery note. You know what I mean? And makes it more like uh a soda that you've had, but totally different. You know what I mean? Right.
+
+[30:40] What are we mixing up now? So this is uh my bike ride's gonna suck, by the way. Or be really fun. Uh so another event we've got we're doing uh during a Manhattan Cocktail Classic is we're doing the Kampari presents, a spirited fet for the senses, inspired by Padma Lakshmi at the box. The box.
+
+[30:59] It should be a really cool event. It's uh us. Uh we're doing uh uh this cocktail. It's uh our variation on the Negroni. It's uh we we're calling it the Marco Polo Negroni.
+
+[31:07] Inspired. Uh we were all asked to create variations on the Negroni based on Padma's cookbook, Tangy Tarte Hot and Sweet. When is this event? On Sunday evening at the box. Um and so this is basically a very uh classic uh peritif necroni, equal parts, uh beef eater, chinzano vermouth, um compari.
+
+[31:27] And then what we've done is we've added tincture of papali long pepper, tincture of mace, tincture of coriander, tincture of cardamom, and a very minute quantities, so it's recognizable as an agroni, but you there's definitely get the sense that it's exotic, and then with that piperine drawn out of the papali long pepper, your lips tingle, and it's a very that's a very floral, you know, pepper. So like an easy way to go on a Negroni variation is to add some form of citrus, but you go on the entire opposite direction of added kind of base notes and spicy notes to it. More aromatics, totally opposite direction from the way most people would because we still wanted to give it an a aromatic cocktail, but we've you'll as you taste it here, it's uh it is definitely a different animal. And by the way, for those of you out there who are just beginning your drinking careers, right? Uh there are a couple of drinks that you can order uh at a bar, and no matter who you are with, you are considered a badass or okay.
+
+[32:20] Negroni is one of those things. If you are with any sort of professional, I don't care who they are, how like fancy, how anything if you walk up and you're like, you know what I want now? A Negroni, then you're a badass. And and if anyone bothers you that you're ordering something that's vaguely pink, depending on how much whether they get it wrong with the vermouth, uh um just let them try it. Yeah, yeah, let them try it.
+
+[32:40] And plus everyone else who knows anything will laugh them out of the out of the universe. Negroni is one of like the all-time favorite drinks that people who like drinks like. Is this true? I I think so, yeah. It's I it's one of the quintessential aperitifs, and I think it's definitely an acquired flavor, but it's one that you're rewarded a lot of loyalty.
+
+[32:57] I always tell people when we do trainings, and you're working with bartenders who haven't been in the industry very long, they've not had the taste of compari, the ginchin, and and and the mix of the the gin and the sweet vermouth. If they taste it every time they make it, eventually one day they'll crave it. It's like yeah, right. The the the the the notes from the from the pepper coming out. You know what's interesting to me though, also, is that um they marry with the with the kampari flavor, and so the kampari is like it's like um the compari note is it's it's interesting because it doesn't dominate more than it normally does, but I can kind of pick it out more than it normally does.
+
+[33:34] It's kind of it's it's it's it's it it it it focuses it in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing is whoops, by the way, nah, geez. By the way, I'm spilling all over myself now. By the way, Campari, one of my favorite, one of my favorite products.
+
+[33:45] Although I do like Aperol, which they also own now. Yes, also delicious, different thing, but uh yeah. Uh I mean, you know, different similar. Oh, for sure. Yeah, but you know, Aperol, lower alcohol content, different flavor.
+
+[33:57] It's a bright, it's a brighter orange, it's a different orange. So the little bit of the little bit of spiciness and aromatic like makes you go back for that next sip. And the garnish is trying to figure it out. It's like just enough there to like really pique your imagination and curiosity with what flavors you're getting. So for the garnish, we actually uh curried uh some orange juice and um and then compressed that curried orange juice into the orange.
+
+[34:20] So as you taste that I'm gonna eat the orange. I ate the whole thing of creme of jerk, including the rind. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it I think it came out.
+
+[34:30] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've got some heat on it. But it's a really wonderful curry flavor. Oh, and I guess we should we should point out we were asked to specifically the four categories were tangy, uh tart, hot or tart tangy tart, hot and sweet, and we chose hot.
+
+[34:46] So that's why the papali, and that's why the curry. You guys are no strangers to freaking heat on a drink, though. You guys uh made a drink once, and this is before I knew you. Um you I don't know whether both of you or whether it just Chad did an event at the SCI with a um that was me, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[35:03] With a hot pepper drink. Put me on mine behind. I can drink I can drink anything. The La Patada, the kick, yes. Uh, with the with the Chipotle uh uh the Chipotle if you're mezcal.
+
+[35:14] Yeah, that was some hardcore business. Yeah. We were talking we were telling somebody about that drink last night, actually. And we're talking uh that event that was the art of uh art of the cocktail that um uh Yvonne Ivan Lemoyne held there. What are you what's he doing now?
+
+[35:27] I think he's got his uh his uh iFood Studios. Nice, nice. Yeah, I haven't seen him in a long time. Hey Jack, can we go to one more commercial break and take a little bit longer than we normally do? Cause I got some questions I gotta get to.
+
+[35:36] Yes, we can. All righty, we're going to commercial break. Call in your last chance to ask questions. 718 497 2128 cooking issues. Remember how the stones will be like, This is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[37:52] Every Thursday at 4.30 p.m. tune in to Flash Talks Cash, hosted by Joanne Flash Fleming. Flash Talks Cash is a weekly talk show discussing personal and small business money issues. The show examines current topics from the financial tax world and the ways it impacts your wallet. The focus is to help people and small businesses find ways to make money, save money, spend money, and know what to do with your money when you get it.
+
+[38:18] Again, that's every Thursday at 4 30 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. They are a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll. They are southerners who are I consider to be New Yorkers now, even though they live all over the country, but they they do have both both angles going, right? Do you uh you had something you guys are working on now?
+
+[38:47] A uh combination of cocktail culture and and music or well, we were just interviewed for uh webs or a new website called Rocktail Culture, which we just loved. It's great. It is the uh intersection of cocktails and rock music, which totally speaks to us. It's uh I think that the guy behind it is David Blutenthal, and he's uh he works in the the music business. We have yet to meet him face to face.
+
+[39:08] Uh had a great conversation with them over the phone. He uh is a cocktail geek uh and also really obviously very passionate about music and has kind of merged the two in a s in into a kind of an interesting site where he interviews bands about their drinking habits on the road and their interest in cocktails and then bartenders, you know, advice. Yeah. Nice. Uh all right.
+
+[39:30] So listen, I'm gonna tell you this. You have one last chance to call in to ask some cool drinks questions to our amazing drink panel here. 718 497 2128. 718 497 2128. I am now gonna go over in Blitzkrieg fashion the email questions that have come in.
+
+[39:46] You guys chime in if you have any any anything you you want to talk about. Okay. Uh Teddy DeVico, uh who is uh teen chef teddy.blogspot dot dot com or something like that. That's it. I I think blogspot's the funniest thing in the world, the word the word blog spot.
+
+[40:00] By the way, I'm getting lit up on their drinks there. Okay. Hey David Nastasha, first off, I want to thank you guys for doing the podcast. Hey, thank you for liking it. I listen to it every week and I learn a lot.
+
+[40:08] I have two random questions. One has anyone ever tried making chocolate from coffee beans or coffee from cocoa nibs? Both of them go through very similar processes, and I think it would be possible to make such products. Okay, here's the issue. Uh they have different kinds of uh fat levels, right?
+
+[40:22] So coffee has a certain amount of oil in it, and that's the delicious coffee oils that when you when you roast to a uh very dark stage come out. But uh, in order to make chocolate per se, you need a very high quantity of of uh of fat. And cocoa butter has a very specific uh kind of melting profile, and it's a much more saturated solid fat than uh coffee is. So uh you could make you could take coffee powder and reduce it to very, very, very, very fine powder and then grind it over a course of time with cocoa butter and produce something that had the texture of chocolate. If you then ate that product, it might be delicious.
+
+[40:58] I'm not gonna take away from the delicious aspect, but you are going to be running to the toilet and shaking like a chihuahua dog because the caffeine is gonna take you uh for a serious ride. A friend of mine used to be a manager at a coffee shop in uh in New Haven, Connecticut, and he used to take uh Turkish ground coffees, which is about the finest ground that anyone uses, and dump it on vanilla ice cream and eat it in between his uh cigarette breaks. And I've never seen a human being who shook faster than that guy. He's literally like a human blur. Um so I I wouldn't necessarily you could do it, but I wouldn't I wouldn't uh recommend it.
+
+[41:33] And and cocoa nibs, if you treated them like coffee, you roast them to a lower temperature than you do coffee because of the oils and whatnot, and and and it doesn't quite follow the same roasting profile. There's a lot of uh fat in there. You could brew a beverage, but there's also the extractables from cocoa are are a different kind of percentage than you would get out of the coffee. So you kind of, if you're doing espresso, which is all I really care about, you would get a different kind of uh extraction. So I don't know if it would work the same, but you could we you it's it's not impossible, but you have to uh account for the different fat levels and the different solubilities and things they're extracting out of it.
+
+[42:07] Make sense? Mm-hmm. Makes sense. All right. Uh two.
+
+[42:10] With dry aging beef, you have to trim off the molded exterior, but if you were to eat that, would it be harmful to you? I'm gonna be harmful per se, but it might be gross. Uh I know eating moldy exterior would not be pleasant by itself. Oh, there you go. But I think you would be able to make a super beefy funky sauce with the trimmings of dry aged beef.
+
+[42:24] Typically the trimmings have a super funky odor, and most people like a little bit of funk in their meat, but not like a hardcore amount of funk. So if you get a dry age piece of meat, hardcore, the the uh after they trim it for you when they're gonna cut it and sell it to you. If you want to know the super funk, smell that bone. Because the bone where the bone is, they don't trim off that little piece of skin on this on the bone. That's what that funk is.
+
+[42:44] And this is why certain chefs like Adam Perry Lang comes to mind, uh, don't like to cook dry aged beef in a bag, uh, low temper sous-vide because that funk then permeates the whole thing. I think a little bit of funk, a good thing. I think a lot of funk, and like you might like it, and like maybe like a couple other people might like it, but a good 50-60% of your guests aren't gonna groove on it. What do you think? I think that sounds about right.
+
+[43:09] All right. Uh keep coming with the uh with the excellent questions, Teddy. All right, we have a question from Alvin Schutz. Uh hello, he's a longtime listener, first time emailer. Thank you for emailing.
+
+[43:19] Please email more. Uh, he also enjoys the blog. Thank you. Appreciate it. Um, okay.
+
+[43:23] We hope we can take some time to talk about barbecue. With barbecue, awesome subject, right? Uh, do you know the burn temps for lump charcoal versus brick briquettes versus propane? And also, Alton Brown says that burning propane produces water vapor that inhibits smoke penetration into meat. But many smokers employ a water pan to moisten the cooking environment.
+
+[43:40] How is this different? Alton Brown, much as I love Alton Brown, he is just straight up wrong on this, right? When you burn propane, it is true that water is produced. However, uh uh, if you stick your hand into a uh a big box full of a propane fire, it's not gonna get cold and clammy. It's gonna burn.
+
+[44:00] You know what I mean? Because although water vapor is produced, right, you're also producing a tremendous amount of heat. And in fact, the food itself already has water in it, and as you say, there's a water pan uh there, right? And it and specifically what he's talking about is smoking. If you're smoking, you're not using charcoal, you're using wood, because charcoal doesn't produce the smoked flavor unless you have fat dripping on it, and then we have uh the the flare-up from the fat that are creating those flavors on the meat.
+
+[44:26] Smoke flavor comes from burning wood. When you burn wood, which is an organic substance that is uh their hydrocarbons in it that are burning, you are also producing water. So when you are uh even if you don't soak your wood chips, you're producing water when you're combusting wood to produce smoke. There ain't there ain't two ways about it. That's all there is to it.
+
+[44:44] The only uh like way is if you were to 100% efficiently combust charcoal that was 100% well made, the you're basically just producing carbon dioxide because there's not uh a lot of hydrogen left in it. It's basically turned to carbon. But otherwise, you are producing water when you're burning it. So I don't think it's a huge freaking issue. What is an issue is that in order to get good smoke penetration on your meat, you need to get the the uh the surface moisture of your of your product down to below about 10% moisture, which is why you dry your product out first, you form a pellicle before you're gonna smoke it, and it's it's nice and dry.
+
+[45:16] Now it's gonna suck up a smoke like the like the end of the world is coming. But don't worry about uh uh propane, right? But uh the smoky flavors, right, aren't made from the propane. Smoky flavors are made from the crappy, incomplete combustion of a complicated product, which is wood. Uh and ch and gr charcoal grilling flavors are made by fat dripping off of your meat and hitting charcoal, flaring up and like and like you know charring your your meat that way.
+
+[45:44] That's where those those flavors come from. As for the different temperatures, um, the different temperatures depend on how much oxygen is uh is available to it, but the the temperatures aren't that radically different between propane, methane, and a well-fueled charcoal fire. Uh would fire maybe a little bit less because it's incompletely burning and there's a lot there m there's moisture in there, whatnot. But here's the here's the kicker, right? The reason why gas grills aren't usually as good as charcoal grills, right?
+
+[46:18] Propane has about 91,000 or 90,000 BTUs per hour of uh of of energy per sorry per pound, right? 91,000 BTU. So if you burned a pound an hour, you're doing about as well as my deep fryer, which is really, really good. Really good. But uh most gas grills don't burn that much propane.
+
+[46:37] They just don't have enough balls to really do what you want, right? Now, even though charcoal, right, even good hardwood charcoal um doesn't have um doesn't have uh that many BTUs per hour, I mean BTUs per pound compared to propane, much less, in fact, like on the order of like 10,000 versus like 90,000, right? What you can do with with charcoal is dump an entire bag into your Weber at once, fire that sucker up, burn it like within like an hour, you can you can release all of that energy at once, right? So you get to control this immense release of energy with the charcoal. So you can overwhelm it and produce more energy and get a huge amount of power out of your charcoal just because you can burn it in faster uh higher quantities than you do propane.
+
+[47:27] If you had a real propane burner, like like fed with oxygen, I can melt a you know, I can melt steel with it. You know what I mean? So it's not like I can't get the energy out of it. It's just your your gas grill is puny in comparison to what you can do with the average charcoal grill. Even though the theoretical temperatures, and by the way, like they they they quote temperatures like 1900 degrees Celsius and all that, that's like for the very hottest part of the flame.
+
+[47:53] That's nowhere near what the temperature is on your meat. What's really important is the heat you're producing on meat. And actually, charcoal is also very good for that too, because once it burns down, it produces a lot of radiant heat, and that radiant heat is really good at delivering heat uh to your meat. So uh if you had the world's ballsiest like propane burner, you could definitely outdo someone with who was underusing charcoal, but it's hard to beat dumping an entire bag of charcoal on your on your grill for just kind of straight balls. Does that make sense?
+
+[48:22] Yeah. Yeah, I mean to your meat. Heat to your meat, it's all about heat to your meat. Um second question was uh is it gonna is it possible to achieve myard reactions in eggs cooked to temperatures between 62 and 67 Celsius, preferably in a wet cooking environment without increasing the PH to unpalatable levels? I don't think so.
+
+[48:41] Uh typically um the myard reactions I get are higher, closer to the boiling point of uh water, and so I don't think you're gonna be able to um to to get to get those things. This is a different question from from Daniel. He also says weeks ago we mentioned upcoming Mofad fundraiser, that's Museum of Food and Drink in the Bay Area. He's tried contacting Mofad and has not received a reply. Daniel, stay tuned.
+
+[49:04] We've just hired a full-time person to work on the Museum of Food and Drink. She's starting up on June 1st, and she's gonna be taking over that website and she's gonna answer your reply. One of her first things is to get this fundraiser ready in the Bay Area. Someone will reply to you. Please send another email.
+
+[49:20] We don't want to leave you hanging. Anyone that wants to either go or be involved, we want you there. It's very uh to me personally important that we um we try to get this this museum going. Now, before we leave, I was looking up charcoal, right? And a couple things I learned.
+
+[49:36] I learned I read a book on uh on uh I'm sorry, I read an article on charcoal uh that was interesting to me and bizarre. It's called The Influence of Aromatic Components from and I don't know what actually it's not about charcoal, but I found it. I searched these scientific documents, right? The influence of aromatic components from pig manure on odor and flavor of cooked chicken meat by L. L.
+
+[49:58] Hanson. So it turns out that these guys were like, hey, listen, because do you guys know this? If you if you grow your chickens over moldy bedding that's really moldy, like you can get a moldy flavor in your meat. Sure. So these guys were like, well, I wonder if the smell of crap also makes its way into the meat.
+
+[50:18] So they literally raised chicken. This said, like, this is how horrible like our food production has gotten. Rather than saying, why don't we not have our chicken coops smell so awful that um that that like we can't stand being anywhere near them. Instead, we're like, well, let's see whether we can really taste the meat after it's been stored in these horrible ways. We justify it.
+
+[50:38] Yeah, so they literally literally pumped pig crap stink into like these chicken growing coops for a period of time, uh, and then did side-by-side blind taste tests on the different kinds of meat, whether uh whether or not you could tell that they were raised in pig stink. And turns out you can't, but what a horrible new world horrible idea. All right, so listen. Uh we're we're on our way out, but I want I want you guys to get the final word. What do you what do you what do you got for us?
+
+[51:10] What do you got? Anything. What do we got? Um nothing. Visit our website.
+
+[51:18] Yes. Okay, given the website. We have a new website. It's uh W W. Cuffs and Buttons.com.
+
+[51:24] C-U-F-F-S-A-N-D-B-U-T-T-O-N-S.com. And my next band will be Pigstink Chicken Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Networks in the iTunes Store.
+
+[51:59] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. And now here's some behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. On MeetingPlace.com this week, uh Lisa M. Keefe, one of their principal writers, published the following article about the USDA's child nutrition program.
+
+[52:24] She reports that on Tuesday, the USDA began implementing new rules that are intended to put more locally grown agricultural products on school children's plates. Part of the Healthy Hunger Free Kids Act of 2010, which was signed by President Obama in December, the rules allow schools and other providers to quote, give preference to unprocessed, locally grown, and locally raised agricultural products. When buying food for the national school lunch, school breakfast, special milk, child and adult care, fresh fruit and vegetable, and summer food service programs. Quote, this rule is an important milestone that will help ensure that our children have access to fresh produce and other agricultural products, said Agriculture Under Secretary Kevin Cuncanon in a news release. It will also give a much needed boost to local farmers and agricultural producers.
+
+[53:15] This is Katie Kiefer for behind the scenes food news. Did you know we have a beer show? Check out a small clip from Beer Sessions Radio. All right, welcome back to Beer Sessions Radio on Heritage Radio Network. I'm Jimmy Carboni from Jimmy's number 43, and I'm here with Ray Dieter from the DBA boys.
+
+[53:39] Hey Jim. Ray, this is a fun show. We're drinking Belgian beer, we're drinking Ichttagum, hanging out with the guys from the 124 Rabbit Club. We got uh Don and Wendy from Van Berg the Wolf. Well, let's go back a little bit to kind of build your pedigree.
+
+[53:52] So the two of the two of your top brands that we love and that you have now, Scaldis and Caison DuPont. Tell us uh how you met those guys, how you started working with them. Well, Caisse on the Pont was really that was if you want to hear more, head over to Heritage Radio Network.com, where new episodes of beer sessions are posted every week in our archive. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and iTunes.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery. Kane Vineyard and Winery supports Heritage Radio and the growing movement to change how Americans eat and how we think about our planet. For more information, visit www.kane5.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I am Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues here today in the studio.
+
+[0:30] Nastasha the Hammer Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly noon to twelve forty-five. Calling all of your questions, uh technical cooking or non-technical cooking, or not even cooking related, too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So Nastasha, I'm excited because tomorrow our new 3D printer arrives.
+
+[0:51] I know. Right. Now, folks, uh, for those of you out there that uh know, we have a uh basically a Cornell Fab at home 3D printer, which is an extrusion technology that is used to print food directly. What we're getting now is a Z Corp printer. Z Corp printer is a commercial 3D printer, and you can print basically in in it prints in powder.
+
+[1:11] So we we're gonna be doing mainly uh plaster molds, I think. We're gonna be making plaster with it. It can do in color, did you know it could do in color, Nastasha? Yes, a color color plaster printer. Or in starch.
+
+[1:21] But uh we'll keep you posted on what we make with that. Nastash is currently stinking up the studio with a um with a some sort of space heater that's making the entire uh studio stink of electric heater with dust on it that just got turned on for the first time, which is amazing since it's almost summertime and it's actually quite warm and muggy in the studio, so there's no reason. Yeah, very good, very good. I have eight cavities. Uh that that's that's a very interesting fact.
+
+[1:47] Do you know how many cavities I've had in my whole life? Zero, I know. Zero. Uh for those of you that don't know, Nastasha, besides not really enjoying most of the foods that we all enjoy, even though she's in the food business, subsists almost entirely on candy. Not just any candy.
+
+[2:03] Nastasha craves any sort of sour candy, correct? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen her in under, under uh here another interesting fact. Here's how she can claim that she does not eat the entire package of candy because she has an aversion to certain colors of candy.
+
+[2:20] Uh uh, to be fair, based on whatever artificial flavor is in them. But I think it's also mainly a color thing. I mean, i it is true that I blindfolded her and she was able to distinguish which colors by taste. So it's not that she can't do that. It's just I think that she has matched the color with the taste in her mind, and it's the color that bothers her.
+
+[2:38] So tell everyone out there in case they're gonna send you some sour patch or or sour crybaby candy is what you like the most, right? Which are the colors that you hate, Nastasha? Cherry, red, and lemon yellow, and sometimes orange. Sometimes orange. Mm-hmm.
+
+[2:52] Yeah. Okay. And but these are interestingly, even though the flavors are different, these are the same colors that you dislike in other sour candies, correct? Yes, that's true. That's true.
+
+[3:01] Uh okay. How many cavities? Eight. Eight? Yeah.
+
+[3:07] So uh yesterday I did uh the experimental cuisine collectives yearly uh yearly uh hoo ha shindig thing, right? I gave it I gave a talk. And Nastasha was notably absent because apparently she was at the dentist getting her face drilled out, and she called me and said, I'm coming to the event, but I'm high on Xanax and Vicadin. I was like, why don't you go home and sleep that off? Is this a true story or a false story?
+
+[3:30] Yeah. Okay. So uh the in the ongoing annals of uh cinnamon hydrocolloids, James McCulloch writes in from Australia. He says, uh, I remember you were discussing the gelling qualities of cinnamon a few weeks ago, and he has been doing some experimenting. So uh basically he did an experiment where he uh mixed cinnamon, he said pictures of it actually.
+
+[3:53] Oh my god, the pictures aren't coming up on my iPad, that's unfortunate. But uh okay. So he decided to leave the cinnamon out of his spice mix until after water was added. So he made a spice mix, added water, uh, and it was you know thin and and fluid, and then added cinnamon to it, and after a while it got kind of uh thick and snotty, I believe is what is what he said. Snotty, did he say snotty?
+
+[4:13] Gooey gel. Phlm-like texture, phlegm. Well, that's interesting. Phlm is the uh a phlegm-like texture is the characteristic texture of a hydrocolloid called Xanthan gum, which basically is used as thickening uh thickening agent, but in higher concentrations turns to I call it snot. You're very polite.
+
+[4:29] Uh I guess they're more polite in Australia than they are here, calling it phlegm. Maybe we should call it phlegm from now on instead of snot. Yeah. Yeah? Alright.
+
+[4:36] All right. Uh so that's interesting. I tried to find uh I and I've tried to find before, and I tried to find again this morning the um whether there was any known hydrocolloid in uh in cinnamon. There is a h there is a polysaccharide called s like cinnamon polysaccharide AX, which is supposed to have some sort of bioactive uh properties, but I wasn't able to find it anything. I mean, it it makes sense to me that ground up bark would have some thickening, which is what it is, would have some thickening uh power.
+
+[5:04] There is a actual hydrocolloid gum called Casia gum, but it's from an unrelated um cassia to the well not unrelated, but not the same cassia that we use for uh cinnamon substitute, and also it's from the seeds, not from the bark. Uh I I thought maybe that that maybe cellulose in the ground up uh bark would also act as a hydrocolloid, but cellulose itself doesn't really uh act uh isn't soluble at all until it's been treated uh either with acid or with with other things to make things like microcrystinal cellulose MCC gum or cellulose gum so I I don't know that it's a cellulose but there's got to be something in there I mean you can see in the picture that that it does do something. I hope I can find if there's any hydrocolloid expert out there can you please call and tell us what is in cinnamon that causes gelling properties. Anyway uh Brian in New Zealand so we're doing the Australian and New Zealand show today which I enjoy you know I've never been to I've never been over there. We should go you want to you know Dave Chang just opened uh a new place in uh Australia and he he loves it down there he says it's fantastic New Zealand well I want to go to New Zealand because I want to go to the home of the New Zealand uh the New Zealand grapefruit aka the Purman Orange which is one of my favorite citruses on the planet that we had at Gene Lester's ranch out in Watsonville, California.
+
+[6:18] Was that one of your favorites there? Yeah that was really delicious. But they don't ship it here and they don't grow it here because because we're dumb. Okay Brian has a comment on the uh thermal mix and for those of you who uh don't live in Europe which is most of us I guess right uh the thermal mix is and I guess they have them in Australia New Zealand as well. Uh thermal mix is basically is made for a home but all of the fancy European chefs use them.
+
+[6:42] Uh they they're basically a blender slash heater slash not really a food processor more a blender heater scale and they have like a stainless steel trough that you do things in. And um you know in the US we don't really have them very all uh very much because they're not very uh widely distributed and we use our vita prep blenders. And so here's a comment from Brian uh the question about thermal mixes the other weeks maybe write this email. I absolutely love my thermal mix. I got it almost exclusively to hydrate hydrocolloids, cuts down on dishes, saves me time in not needing to stir.
+
+[7:14] I love it. I also happen to use it as a blender because it is there and it beats most other blenders out there, which is true, but I still want a vita prep, Brian. I'm gonna have to go ahead and say entirely fair. That's an entirely fair set of comments right there. And yes, you do still want a vita prep because they kick some serious butt.
+
+[7:32] I like myself a vitaprep. But I think you're right. Um, you know, when we teach hydrocolloids, it can be a pain in the butt sitting there stirring, and you can turn a thermomix on low and just have it stir in agar from cold and heat without even watching it, and it's not gonna scorch. So I think I think you're right. I'm gonna take back anything I've ever said.
+
+[7:50] And if you do a lot of hydrocolloid work, I'm gonna say that the thermal mix is an awesome thing to have uh sitting around, especially for heated hydrocolloids, which would be agar, carrageenin, um I don't know, big, you know, uh j uh gel an uh, you know, even anything like that. So that's a good call, Brian. Thank you. Thank you for the thank you for the comment. Uh Derek Baching writes in on Gummy Bears.
+
+[8:14] He's a blogger, uh, and uh he was a contestant on Top Chef Canada. Oh. I don't know, I don't know how he did. I hope you did well, Derek. Uh he called in a few weeks ago about making heat resistant Burblanc.
+
+[8:24] And uh we were talking then about gum arabic and Xanthan gum mix, the one we get from TIC gums. You know, the one that we use for for almost anything for for alcoholic drinks. Uh he hasn't gotten it yet, but he did try some of the pointers about making gummy bears, and he asked a pastry chef friend about making gummies, and she said the same same thing that we said, which is that you have to make starches out of uh uh molds out of cornstarch, and he wants some ideas on these molds. Well, here's the thing. You don't buy, you don't buy a cornstarch mold.
+
+[8:49] What you do is you you take cornstarch and you dry it out for a long time in a in a dry room, usually, you know, a couple of days, in like, oh, you you could use a dehydrator, I would guess, or like a low oven, really, really dehydrate it. And if you really want to do a bang up job, see in the days what they would do back in the days, uh you know, in the you know 1800, late 1800s, early 1900s, they would uh, and to to this day, I mean they still do it, but in other words, just old technology, is you would take the uh starch and you would use it, and after a while it would absorb crap out of your candies and it would become uh old or dead. I think they called it dead starch, dead, I think is what they used. Uh and so but it when you got a new batch of starch in, the starch didn't hold impressions very well. So what they would do is they would take a certain portion of their dead starch and then sift it back in with their brand new starch and do their molds, right?
+
+[9:37] Uh if you don't want to have to do that, I would go to the National Starch Corporation, National Starch uh, you know, food innovations uh brand, they make something called new mold, N-U-M-O-U-L-D, new mold, which is cornstarch with a small amount of mineral oil that's been mixed in so it holds an impression right from the beginning without having to already have starch that has uh stuff in it to have it really take a mold well. After you get your new starch, put it in your dehydrator uh at like 60 Celsius or something for uh you know, like tw 24 to six, you know, 48 hours, something like that to really dry it out. Then what you have to do is you build a box almost like a frame uh with a bottom in it. Uh so you know, like you can use you know uh one by twos or whatever uh and a like masonite on the bottom, get it nice and flat, put your starch in it, then take uh a ruler and strike it flat across. So now you have a bed of cornstarch that is, you know, perfectly even and flat, right?
+
+[10:33] Now you take another piece of uh you know, stiff like masonite or board, and you make this is how you do the mold. You take the shape that you want it. So you have to have like little little like like wooden waxed or like really smooth, that has to be really smooth or like plaster or whatever, gummy bears or whatever, and they're all on this board, and you press it into your cornstarch mixture, and then you lift it up very carefully, right? And that is how you mold it. So now you have a bed of cornstarch with a bunch of shapes of uh gummy bears or stars or hearts or chickens or whatever in it, and then you deposit your gelatin and or whatever, whatever you're gonna do, and then it depending on the product, something like uh like gelatin with gummy bears, you would then put it back in your dehydrator um for uh you know uh up to a couple of days at a at a slow dehydration rate.
+
+[11:22] If you dehydrate too quickly, you case harden the outside and they never they never set properly. So it's the there's a couple articles you can read on it if you're interested. Uh one that I would suggest that's pretty interesting is modeling diffusion of moisture during stoving of starch molded confections by MB Um Sud Harsan and G.R. Ziegler coming out of uh Switzerland and the university uh Penn State University here in in Pennsylvania. So take a look at that article and uh see whether you get any good information.
+
+[11:52] And with that, I will go to our first commercial break, but please call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You don't know how many times I pushed that I told you. You don't know how many times I pushed that I could hold you. You don't know how many times I wish that I could hold you into someone who could cherish me as much as I Cherish you should work with more than a blog to the whole in my heart each time I re hold But I am not gonna be the one to share your dreams that I am not gonna be the one to share your schemes, but I am not gonna be the one to share what seems to be the life that you could cherish as much as I do.
+
+[13:24] That man has never found the words that could make you what we have the right amount of letters, just the right sound that could make you hear. My goodness, Nastasha, my goodness, cherish this game sings that every single day. Every single day I always sing like I always think some like a horrible variant of it. I never actually sing cherish. I I'm always do it it's always something horrible and not cherishing.
+
+[13:57] For hearing all of my all of my uh ver different different unsavory versions of cherish. Alright. Call in your questions to seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. 7184972128.
+
+[14:12] Alright. So I had a question in from uh oh, another question from Derek from Derek Backing about Tarte. He's been making a tomato tartatan at work and it's been falling apart when he demolds it. So it's another molding question. That's interesting.
+
+[14:25] So uh tartatan, you know, for those of you tan, tartan. Anyway, so for those of you out there who aren't hip to it, it's uh, you know, it's the famous uh French, you know, upside down apple doodad, which you know, yeah, apples cook them. Uh after the apples have been cooked down, have lost a lot of their moisture, you can then also add some then reduced juice as long as it's really reduced. You put a layer of uh of uh pastry on the top, throw it in your oven, you cook it, and uh when the pastry is done, you pull it out, and then you flip it and unmold it, and there you have it, right? Um so the the he's making one with tomatoes, right?
+
+[15:02] And so the I uh my guess is the reason it's he he's tried a bunch of things to try and keep it holding together. He's been uh making a tomato water gel to pour into the molds with uh guar and pectin and agar, um, but they've been they've been not really working as well as he wants. So I I need to figure out exactly why it is that it's not working. I wouldn't use uh guar, pectin, and agar to hold it together. If you really want that sucker to hold together, um, what you're gonna have to do is use something like gel-an, which is once it sets, is never going to unset.
+
+[15:34] In which case you would then cook it, uh, then let the thing come down to temperature, right? Uh it come down so that the gel ansets, then heat it slightly again, in case there's some like sugars there, and then unmold it. But the problem is that the the real way tartatan is supposed to unmold is that the sugars stay uh liquid, whereas the fruit holds together enough with its own sort of like gelling power and pectin and the fact that it's been caramelized, and then it unmolds. I think your main problem is that you have just too much water in there. And if you're going to add uh a gelee, I it's I think it's still gonna have your your pastry come out kind of soggy.
+
+[16:13] I think your main goal here is gonna be to get rid of water. So what what I would do, and actually Melissa Clark from uh you know who writes for the New York Times, or at least used to, I think she still does, right? I don't have no idea. Anyway, uh she did an article in 2008 on tomato tartatin where she had a very similar problem. So she switched from larger tomatoes to smaller tomatoes and and uh made sure that they were just cooked down a lot before before she added uh the pastry on on top.
+
+[16:37] So I would consider using the smaller uh tomatoes, squeezing the seeds out after you peel them, but don't throw that away because that's all the flavor, reducing that first before you while you're cooking the tomatoes, and then add that reduction back and then put the lid on top of it. Just make sure you have enough sugar in there to uh hold it to form like a thick caramel that's gonna hold everything together, and make sure that your water content's not too high. And if you do that, you should be okay. If you're gonna then bolster it with a gel, I would do it with a gel that doesn't melt. And the only ones that don't melt that taste good would be something like gel-an.
+
+[17:13] And I would use a low A sol gel-an, um, which is the the firm one, the brittle one, because that one is uh clear and it's not gonna give a cloudy appearance to your to your tartatin. So um I these sound like good suggestions or no, all right. So hopefully that works out for you, let us know. Let us know, let us know how that goes. Okay.
+
+[17:33] Uh so I have uh another series of questions from our good buddy Kang Ken Ingber, uh, and says that we we neglected to make the joke about uh terroir when McGee was on and we were talking about roto vap being dirt. But it's funny you should say that um because that is exactly what so we're talking about it uh a couple weeks ago, someone called in and they had a roto vap, and Harold McGee was online and um asked what he should be making with a roto vap, which is a vacuum still. And McGee mentioned that one of the famous early cooking applications of uh rotary evaporation was the one you know roca, the roca brothers at uh El Calar Can Roca, one of the great restaurants in Spain, uh they put dirt water into a roto vap and then uh distilled off the essence of dirt, oh de dirt, oh de terror, and then although I don't know how to say that in Spanish. Do you know? Do you remember?
+
+[18:26] I don't remember. You know what Nastasha is? Nastasha is is anyone have you ever seen have you ever seen Born in East LA? No. You never never seen Born in the East LA?
+
+[18:34] You remember the song uh uh Born in the USA? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Cheech Marin did a cover of it called Born in East LA and it had some success as a video. And then um he is he's an American and he lives in of Mexican descent, who lives in East LA and uh doesn't have an ID on him and gets deported to Mexico, and his whole joke is that he doesn't speak Spanish, right?
+
+[18:56] That is Nastasha. So Nastasha could be in East LA, uh, you know, close to where she's from, not have ID, get deported to Mexico and not speak any Spanish. That's conceivable, right? That's right. So you could be living that movie.
+
+[19:10] I lost it. You could be living that movie. Yeah, okay. Anyway, uh it's not that it's a good movie. I enjoy it because I enjoy anything with Cheech Cheech Marin in it.
+
+[19:19] But uh anyway, so uh how do we get on that? What were we talking about? Rotovaps. So um El Calar Can Roca, uh famous dish, just dirt water with oysters, and then uh uh, but the actual reason that they did that was because they wanted you to experience no joke, the terroir of like in a literal sense, the terroir of their region. So they would get dirt from this particular you know forest that they used to go and play in as kids, and it would have that moist, uh that moist here comes the space eater again, Nastasha turns on.
+
+[19:51] You pretend that I can't smell it. It's cold. It is not at all. Folks, folks, uh if if I ever wore shorts in my life, which I don't because I hate them, I would be wearing shorts right now. Anyway, um geez.
+
+[20:06] Okay, so they so they so they they wanted you to experience, and in the in Juan Roka's uh like his words, and because I asked him about it uh years ago, he wants you to experience the feeling he had as a child right after the rain in the morning when you go out in the forest and you get that smell, mixed with uh, you know, like the local oysters that they can also get by. So literal terroir was the reason behind that that dish. Okay. Uh so here's uh Ken's question on uh onions and other things and mirapoi and sauces. I was making a veggie-intensive tomato sauce for a weeknight meal, uh, mushrooms, onion, carrots, uh carrots, green peppers, and garlic.
+
+[20:44] Uh, but several questions came to mind. Uh and I and he hopes that they are of general interest. Well, we'll see. Uh uh he said, maybe I need a primer on onions. Some recipes talk about sauteing onions for five to eight minutes.
+
+[20:55] My onions hardly change at all in such a short period of time. Um, and uh, if he jacks up the heat, uh he singes the edges of the onions, but don't really accomplish much else. If his goal is to soften the onions, wouldn't an hour and a half and tomato sauce do that. And if my goal is to caramelize uh caramelize the onions, what aren't we talking about a much longer period of time than any home cook spends on onions for tomato sauce? And so the question is what is a softened onion?
+
+[21:18] Okay, uh, it's an interesting question. So there are a bunch of things that are going on. Um, and he's gonna ask about because I pre-read the questions. I don't want anyone out there to pretend that I'm haven't read the questions before they come on, and I'm I just know all this crap off the top of my head. Although I really do.
+
+[21:32] Anyway, uh the the book to get on this whole subject of onions, and I know we've uh and garlic, but uh onions as well, and I know that I've mentioned this book on the on the show before, but it's really kind of a one-of-a-kind thing is Garlic and Other Alliums, The Lore and the Science. That's a good title, right? By Eric Block. And it's one of the only uh kind of books on food that I own that has a uh a preface written by a Nobel laureate. And this book was brought to my attention, as most other good things are by uh Harold McGee.
+
+[22:02] And while this book is very highly technical, and huge chunks of it are only going to be of use to trained uh organic chemists. Um it also has a bunch of sections on cooking that uh that that talk about interesting things, and also about things like uh here chapter two is all things allium, alliums, which you know, anything onions, garlic leaks, alliums in literature, the arts and culture. So it's really an all-around book, and it's one of those books that you kind of need to have in your uh in your in your house just so you can say that you have like it's not even that I mean it's expensive. I'm not gonna say it's cheap. Uh I I don't have the price here.
+
+[22:40] I would guess it's like 50 bucks or some crap like that. But for 50 bucks, you have like the world's repository of knowledge on onions. For instance, the chapter six dot four on page 320 is use of onion as an insect repellent by cappuccine monkeys. How ballsy is that? I have this in my house, and you don't.
+
+[22:59] Don't you feel less less good that you don't have a book that you can flip open and learn about the use of onion as an insect repellent by cappureon monkeys? Anyway, um, so get this book and it describes in detail uh what's going on in onions and garlic and leeks uh and so forth when they are being cut, when they are sitting around, when they are being cooked uh at different rates, and describes all the different reactions that are taking place and therefore gives you an insight in into what's going on. The one unfortunate thing that they don't cover in here is, and I'm maybe I'll I don't know this guy, uh Eric Block, but maybe I'll call him because they don't go into what happens specifically with pressure cooking, which is one of the reasons I bought the book, because I'm very interested in pressure cooking alliums, uh, garlic and onion and things like that. Uh it's one of our main uh it's one of our main things that we do is pressure cook things like garlic and onions. Anyway, uh so buy that book.
+
+[23:56] But here's the thing uh the flavor of onions is changed by heat uh and the and the and the arresting of further um production of flavor in the onions is arrested by heat well before the onions themselves start to soften because you're breaking down the tissue, okay? So there's there's the the flavor development uh and the flavor changing that the heat i i is providing. Um that is going on at the same time that you're heating, and then once you get above 85 C for an extended period of time where you break down uh the the pectins uh and the hemicellulose and actually soften the onion. So if you're making a sauce and your goal is to uh basically uh, you know, provide a certain type of onion flavor that happens relatively quickly in cooking, then it's not necessarily not necessary to get them all the way soft as long as you get them up to a heat where you've deactivated the enzymes and you've kind of I guess stabilized the flavor somewhat, then the cooking in the sauce will take you the rest of the way in terms of making the onions soft, right? Assuming you cook it long enough.
+
+[24:53] It actually takes a long time uh in a thick tomato sauce to have onions go soft because the water's not as available as it would be uh if you were cooking it in water, or and and that's also frankly another thing you could do. If you're not getting high heat flavors, you could just put the onions in with wine or whatever, flash them off so that they're almost boiled, and that'll get what you want if you're not providing any any color. Okay. But uh if and if you want that deep caramelized uh flavor where you're actually altering the onion uh the uh the sugars in the onions are uh you then you need to cook at a lower heat so that it doesn't scorch because the when you scorch the sugars, the flavor turns different, and most of us say worse, unless you're burning the onion to make that so the to darken up like a stock. Most of us don't want that acrid burnt flavor, so then you need a lower heat for uh a longer period of time to get those kind of uh caramelized notes.
+
+[25:45] And you can do anything in between, but you're obtaining different flavors. So uh everything depends. Uh as for the other uh ingredients, so so you then uh after that he he says um he says uh uh admittedly I always cook onions in bulk, so I acknowledge that the volume of onions I cook will increase the time for any kind of sauteing, but he thinks his point stands. That's true. Uh especially if you cook in bulk, you're gonna basically be steaming the onions, breaking down the tissue, and then only after they've been steamed and broken down are you really going to get those kind of flavors and and but you know, honestly, it's difficult to do a good onion.
+
+[26:20] If you're gonna make like an uh an onion uh tart, let's say, it's very difficult to do it in under under half hour, I'd say, wouldn't you say, Nastasha? Something like that. Um I guess he has he has the same question for mirapoi, which would be like, you know, the classic like uh onions or onions or leeks, carrots, and celery. So frito, which I assume he means the Spanish version, which would be uh um garlic, onions and and uh tomatoes, or the the holy trinity of creole cooking, which I guess is onions, bell peppers, and celery. I think it depends, like celery, I don't think you're getting that much out of celery in the saute, except for um you're densifying it by sauteing it and have the structure break down before it's been in a liquid, right?
+
+[26:59] Um same thing goes, I mean, bell peppers, I don't think you're getting that much out of, except for you you're getting some brown flavors off of the off of the uh m the meat of it, but I don't think you're winning that much. Carrots have a lot of sugar in them, so you could be getting some caramelizing effect out of the carrots, and uh depending on how you treat them. But I don't cook a miracle long enough to get those kind of flavors in my carrots, so I don't really think that's gonna that's gonna happen. Um he then says more generally, which of the veggies really ought to be sauteed before adding to a sauce. For example, mushrooms, uh they're better sauteed for the texture, but will they retain the intensified flavor after they've been in tomato sauce a long time?
+
+[27:32] I'd say yes, especially on something like a uh uh uh a mushroom. If you're cooking it in a sauce, I think the liquid's gonna diffuse into the mushroom because a mushroom is basically a porous sponge. So if you cook the mushroom by itself and then let it shrink down, then it becomes a denser item that's not gonna absorb as much liquid. And so I think you'll get a fundamentally different, denser, more intense result if you saute your mushrooms beforehand. Uh anyway, um, and then as regards garlic, uh, I think it's a good idea to add your garlic uh much later uh when you're sauteing onions because uh garlic does have a tendency to scorch very readily and turn extremely acrid.
+
+[28:08] The flip side of that is if you're cooking garlic in water in a pressure cooker, in which case it doesn't matter when you add it because you're you're pressure cooking the whole whole dang thing. Uh all right, let's go to one more break. Call in all of your questions if you have any questions, you people out there to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Umbrando.
+
+[29:54] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Really? Tune into Greenhorn Radio, hosted by Severin von Scharner Fleming every Thursday at 2 p.m. Greenhorn Radio is radio for young farmers by young farmers. Helmed by acclaimed activist, farmer, and documentarian Severin Fleming, Greenhorn Radio is a weekly phone interview session surveying America's cutting edge under 40 farmers.
+
+[30:18] Again, that's every Thursday at 2 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. That is a weird Bowie song you chose. I feel like Marlon Brando when I look at my little China girl. What a weird song.
+
+[30:33] You know which one I forgot that we should have played. Was it? Was the Abracadabra? That's next week. Oh, yeah.
+
+[30:37] Uh okay, so in case so next week for one of our break music, we're going to play uh Steve Miller's Abricadabra. Yeah. Steve Miller's song Yeah, unless someone out there in internet land can come up with a worse Steve Miller song to play a more horrid, abysmal, like depth of hell. Give him the story, Dave, of how they asked him to create a song. Well, well, so our theory our theory is, but our theory is that you know they needed to come out with it with a new album to go on tour so that they can go on tour and play all of their older really good songs.
+
+[31:12] And they come into the exec and like he's like, hey, it's it's abracadabra, I'm gonna reach out and grab you. That's the song. And they're like, Yeah, that's funny, Steve. Yeah, what's the real song? He's like, no.
+
+[31:21] That's it. Anyway. Uh so next week, unless one of you can come up with a worse Steve Miller song, that's going on the list, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's gonna come up with a worse song.
+
+[31:31] No. I mean, you could look at any B side. Anything. Yeah. And yet they still play it at every crazy dance.
+
+[31:40] It's on the radio consistently, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Avricadabra. Jack, can you think of a worse Steve Miller song? He's shaking his head and down.
+
+[31:48] Yeah, no. Anyway. Okay. Got a question on vodka sauce. Uh, what do you say about vodka sauce?
+
+[31:53] In your view, is the purpose of vodka purely because the alcohol A releases certain flavor compounds and then B boils off? Or is there some residual alcohol in the sauce that is itself a benefit? Am I correct in that the flavors will be released by wine as well, but unlike vodka, the wine will impart a beneficial flavor of its own even after the alcohol boils off. Okay, well, a couple of things. One, alcohol never truly boils off.
+
+[32:14] I mean, you lose a bunch of it, that's true, but it never truly uh boils off. And in fact, uh, I think it's uh I I it's been a while since I've researched this. Uh and I myself have never done uh side-by-side taste test of the same exact sauce prepared the same exact way, except for in one you add uh a bit of uh water and in one you add uh vodka and then correct them for the same level of uh of final reduction at the end of the sauce, right? Um it's possible to do it and then doing a side-by-side blind tasting. I've never done it.
+
+[32:48] Do you know anyone that's done that? No. I don't either. I mean, it'd be an interesting test. I don't really have the time to run it right now, but it would be a very interesting test to run.
+
+[32:55] I like pasta. If someone else is yeah, Nastasha loves pasta. If anyone in the in the greater New York area wants to run that side-by-side test and invite us, we'll come, right? Yeah. Yeah, we'll come.
+
+[33:05] Uh anyway, uh, but I think that uh you the the the effect of vodka sauce is supposed to be from residual alcohol that's left there that has relatively little flavor in it that will vodka. Uh and so it would be the volatilization of the uh of the aroma compounds in the residual alcohol that I think is providing some of the effect, although the residual alcohol content is still quite low. So even if you don't drink alcohol, I don't really think it's a problem. But it really is true that not all not all alcohol boils off. We we did have to run a test on that a number of years ago because Nils got called for I forget who it was, some TV show uh made him do it, and we had to do a bunch of research on it.
+
+[33:45] But there's still uh quite a bit I I know what we did. We flambed uh alcohol straight and then did alcohol and water tests without a lot of complicating effects like uh sugar and tomato sauce, and then did uh um then did refractometer readings of the result to see what the residual crap was left in it. And in fact, there was residual alcohol content. I don't remember what the numbers were though, do you? No.
+
+[34:08] You were there for that, were they? It was before you were there? Maybe. And speaking of alcohol, we have a question in uh non-alcoholic cocktails from Christian Swanpole. You think I'm pronouncing that right?
+
+[34:20] Mm-hmm. Swanpole? Hmm. Swan pole. Also from New Zealand.
+
+[34:24] This is a new you know what? We need to get our butts on to New Zealand. First of all, do you do you like lamb? You better like lamb. I just Julie's there.
+
+[34:31] I want to go there for that. Yeah, but do you enjoy eating lamb? Alright, so you don't hate lamb. No, I don't hate lamb. Alright, good.
+
+[34:37] Lamb is some delicious stuff. Gotta go to you know, we we in New here in New York we get a whole bunch of New Zealand lamb, but I wonder whether they keep the best product for themselves. What do you think? I think so. You think so?
+
+[34:47] Yeah, wouldn't you? Well, but the thing is, like, I'll eat lamb when I'm there, of course, but I'm gonna I'm gonna basically like eat New Zealand uh grapefruits till I plots. I'm just gonna eat Purman oranges until my body explodes. You know, you can't eat grapefruit when you're on Xanax. That was another thing.
+
+[35:03] I did. Uh there's a so the in grapefruit there is uh and and the perceived uh the the literature says that the the stuff that's in grapefruit that means that you can't have it when you're on any form of statin or anything like that. There's a bunch of drugs that it interacts with, is uh a chemical called bergamotin. This is what I've been led to believe. Uh and uh so I talked uh for with uh Ken Kirshenbaum at NYU a number of years ago seeing whether we could maybe get rid of the bergamotin.
+
+[35:30] I think since then someone has uh postulated a way to do it. I I think I saw some patent literature recently on someone basically getting the bergamotin out of uh grapefruit juice. But my question, and no one's as far as I can tell, do the research on it, is bergamotin is one of the and hey, think about the name bergamotin, bergamot, right? And bergamot is the classic flavoring in uh earl gray tea. And so my qu and my question is is earl gray tea not okay to have.
+
+[36:01] Are there significant levels of bergamotin in earl gray tea such that you shouldn't have it when you're uh on statins or other medications that are affected by it? Now, the the truth of the matter is is that um what happens is is when you when you take grapefruit when you're on these medications, it changes the uh your response to dose, right? So I think some medications it can uh increase the response, and some medications it can decrease the response. But theoretically, if you have the same amount in your system all the time, they can correct for the fact that you uh are are are ingesting grapefruit, but grapefruit isn't something that you typically ingest at at a constant rate every day. So maybe like earl gray tea drinkers, maybe they drink it at a constant enough rate that it's not a problem.
+
+[36:47] Maybe it's not a problem at all. I'd love if anyone out there has any information on bergamotin levels and statins and bergamotin levels in earl gray tea, because it's something I've never seen discussed. No doctors ever tell you, they tell you, hey, stay away from the grapefruit, but they never say, Hey, stay away from the old gray tea. And a lot of people like Earl Gray tea, right? Do you like Earl Grey tea?
+
+[36:59] Mm-hmm. I like Roll Grey Tea. I don't drink it, but I like it. Anyway, how the hell would we get on that? Oh, New Zealand.
+
+[37:12] Yeah. Man, we man, we go on tangents, right? Yes. You know, I got some serious issues. Like uh, like yesterday I was I was at this talk for the uh for the experimental cuisine collective and um someone asked a question in the audience because uh Maxime uh Maxime Billet from the um from the uh exp the modernist cuisine book, you know, along with Chris Young and Nathan Mirval, he was uh there along with Grant, and they were giving uh uh they were basically talking about the book and actually giving us some food, some really delicious food from the book they served out.
+
+[37:44] Yeah, they served out the the rare beef jus, which is one of the famous dishes in the book now, or becoming famous dishes in the book, where they make a uh they make a beef jus um at a very low temperature, like 52 Celsius, which is as low as you can go and be bacterially safe, basically. Or 53, I forget, somewhere in there, in that range. And uh, and they serve it red. And I had it at at um you know at the kitchen lab uh when right before the book was released when I flew out to Seattle. But um I had it this time cold.
+
+[38:13] They served it cold for the summertime, and I think it was actually even better cold, and it's this bright red color. Uh anyway, and they served you know some other stuff, very interesting stuff, great, you know, great stuff. And um someone asked a question, so you know, is there anything else to know? Or is have we figured everything out? And I was like, What?
+
+[38:31] That's weird. That's really weird, right? I was like, you know, I was like, we haven't even asked all the right questions yet. And I was thinking back to uh Roy Fong, the tea guy that we met from the Imperial Tea Garden in uh in um San Francisco, and you know, I was like, you know, look, you know, you could spend your whole life studying, you know, like a single type of tea and uh and not not really not really know everything. Uh anyway, again, and so but then I was like, then I when I when I when I said that, as soon as I said that, I didn't add this.
+
+[39:00] I was like, but me personally, I'm way too scattered to spend my life like which is why, like, you know, in a way, like I I love all this like kind of generalist work that we do, because like I don't I I'm too scattered and I go off on too many tangents to study uh just one thing forever. What do you think? Yeah, no, that's true. I actually was talking about that late last night with someone, yeah. Yeah, and how you can't, yeah.
+
+[39:23] Even though you weren't at the d discussion hearing me say that because you were high on Xanax? Well, I was just talking. Yeah. To yourself. Was there someone there?
+
+[39:30] Or were you hallucinating them? Yeah, it was a hallucination. Okay. So uh Christian asks, uh, I'd like to start by saying he loves the show. Thank you.
+
+[39:37] Uh keep up the good work. We will we will try to. Uh I heard last week that you were doing a non-alcoholic drinks for a party. I have to do the same thing for a party of my own. Unfortunately, I don't have awesome things like rotovaps, but was wondering if you have any pointers or ideas.
+
+[39:49] I don't really have any experience with any form of cocktail, alcoholic or non-alcoholic, and he knows that I'm somewhat of an expert in this uh respect. Well, uh, we hope. We hope anyway, right? Uh so he thought he might have something interesting for him. Thanks for your time.
+
+[40:01] Christian Swanpole from New Zealand. Okay, so uh here's the thing. Here's my feelings on non-alcoholic cocktails. If you serve something uh non-alcoholic, I would go for something that is carbonated because uh it's just more festive. If you serve uh uh something that's not carbonated, it just seems to me to be more like juice.
+
+[40:22] What do you think, Nastasha? I mean, do you think about a bloody Mary? Virgin Mary. A Virgin Mary? No, Virgin Mary is a good cocktail.
+
+[40:29] Uh yeah, yes, a Virgin Mary is good. So, I mean, a traditional Virgin Mary, but depends on what time of day. I mean, you don't want that in the evening. No, right. I'll tell you what we did.
+
+[40:38] We took uh coriander seed, we lightly ground coriander seed, then we cooked it in um in sh in simple syrup, so one-to-one sugar and water. Uh then we let it cool. We kept on tasting it while it was going. If you cook coriander seed too long, it becomes too much like uh a heavy spice note and you lose some of the citrusy notes. We used untoasted coriander seed.
+
+[41:02] Uh then keep ta we used quite a bit actually. Keep tasting it, and then when when you feel it's where you want, strain it out. Okay. Then take something with uh a lot of spice in it that has a lot of heat but not very vegetable. We used the Thai Thai chilies, they're very hot, so we didn't have that much.
+
+[41:18] Make a separate simple syrup with the Thai chilies, right? Then uh take your coriander syrup, put a pinch of salt in it, then um then add the Thai chili, because the coriander syrup is very nice, but it lacks something in the back end in the middle of the palate. You want to add a little bit of that Thai chili syrup to it, not enough to make it spicy, just enough to uh to fill up the back of your throat a little bit like a like a ginger ale. Uh and and then you want to add uh malic acid and citric acid if you don't have that stuff. Two part citric to one part mallock, if you don't, and that's gonna add some limey flavor to it.
+
+[41:51] If you don't have that, you could just bite the bullet and use real limes. But the problem is with real limes, unless you follow our clarification directions on the blog, www.cooking issues.com, uh, you're gonna have issues with foaming uh that are gonna cause problems, uh, even if you strain it. And that's a really good syrup to have at a party, and you can just pour seltzer water on top of that, and it's delicious, right? You like that one, right? Um, or you could clarify any number of juices and make nice light cocktails uh with clarified juices.
+
+[42:19] But I I just I tend to think that that if you really want people to think you're doing something for them that's non-alcoholic, get some sort of a carbonation rig. And carbonation rigs are fairly cheap uh nowadays. Um I don't think we ever posted on getting one, but they're fairly easy to get. And carbonation in general, you can do in an ISI rig or something like that. So the the ones we did, we did a coriander soda, like the one I told you that we then did we made clarified raspberry juice and clarified strawberry juice.
+
+[42:44] Which you know, we used a centrifuge, but you don't need it. You can use uh a lot of different techniques. Hell, you can even buy the juice and then uh carbonate it. Um just remember when you're working with cocktails that you're gonna want to balance uh uh w when you're tasting them, especially because there's no alcohol there, they they're gonna tend to lack something in the kind of the mid palate and in the back of your throat. So you're gonna want to add uh l like spice is very good to add, like in the form of that Thai chili syrup that I'm talking about, just to round it out, not allowed to make it spicy.
+
+[43:15] Don't forget to add a pinch of salt, which is gonna round out all the flavors, especially fruit flavors, not enough to make it salty, but just a little bit, and it's gonna be uh uh you know uh balancing kind of fruity acid and aromatics, I think is where you're gonna want to go to. So we is that good advice or not? That's good, yeah. Yeah. And then and then, of course, if it's sometime in the morning, virgin marries are great.
+
+[43:34] There's tomato juice and you know, uh like whatever forms of spicy stuff that you want in it. If you want to make tomato water, that's a little more intensive, and I recommend buying a centrifuge. Just kidding. Anyway, uh this has been Cooking Issues. Come back and see us next week, every Tuesday, Cooking Issues.
+
+[43:57] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[44:29] This is Katie Kiefer with behind the scenes food news for the week of May 11th. One of the most exciting things that I found in my trolling of trade blogs this week was uh the announcement of a new initiative called Ag RE. That's Capital A G, small R E E. So it's sort of agriculture and green, I suppose is the uh the idea behind that. And the co-chairs include Dan Glickman, who is a former Secretary of the USDA under Clinton, Gary Hirschberg, who is the president and CEO of Stonyfield Farm, Jim Mosley, who is a former Deputy Secretary at the USDA under George Bush, and Emmy Simmons, a former assistant administrator for economic growth, agriculture, and trade at the U.S.
+
+[45:12] Agency for International Development. So this is kind of a mixed bag of political viewpoints here, which is what made me really uh sit up and take notice. It's funded by all the usual suspects like the Gates Foundation, the Ford Foundation, etc. But um leading off in their uh first meeting, Glickman stressed the importance of involving all stakeholders and seeking common ground in addressing the need to feed a growing global population and doing so in ways that are environmentally, economically, and socially sustainable. And the eight foundations that are backing Ag Agri, he notes, agreed to set aside their political differences, as did the individual co-chairs to develop research based long-term solutions and strategies.
+
+[45:57] I think this is a gigantic step in the right direction. I'm hoping that these guys will have a huge impact on the farm bill, which will be uh coming up again in 2012. Um, so let's uh keep an eye on Agri. If you want to read more about them and what they're doing and their news. They do have a website.
+
+[46:12] It's www.food and agpolicy.org. This has been Katie Kiefer with behind the scene food news. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. In the next few weeks, Heritage Foods USA will be offering an interesting variety of amazing products, ranging from top quality seafood to their famous pork cuts. At the end of May, the Heritage team will go up to Maine to harvest fresh lobster with sustainable lobster meat.
+
+[46:43] These delicious lobster are a perfect way to kick off the summer season. In the pork compartment, Heritage Foods USA will offer the maple cured smoked boneless heritage ham at an unbeatable price. This offer won't last long, so get them while you can. Place your order today at HeritageFoods USA.com or call 718-389-0985. That's 718-389-0985 to place your order with Andrea or Ashley.
+
+[47:10] Don't forget to sign up for the email list and to check them on Facebook and Twitter to get in on their new products, deals, and offers from Heritage Foods USA.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:09] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I am Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you approximately from 12 to 1245 every Tuesday here in the studio today with Nustacha the Hammer Lopez Cooking Issues as always. She is the hammer. How are you doing, Nastasha? I'm fine.
+
+[0:23] How are you? Haven't seen you. How was your uh holiday weekend? It was good. Yeah?
+
+[0:27] Uh-huh. I went to Fire Island. Oh nice, how was that? Fine. Did you get poison ivy?
+
+[0:31] Nope. No, you Fire Island is a uh they should like well, I'm not gonna say it's uh obviously they should not light any fires there, but they should get rid of that some of that poison ivy. The worst case poison ivy I think I've ever had I had in Fire Island. In fact, the doctor said it was the worst case of poison ivy that he had seen in in at least five or six years of practice. My entire arm swelled up.
+
+[0:49] I looked like uh the in the incre if the incredible hulk was bright red instead of green, it looked like I had one giant hulk arm that but it was instead of like muscle, it was a giant sack of water. It's gross. Well, because they had these blueberries, you see, they're growing uh all on Fire Island. I picked all these delicious blueberries and luckily was able to make possibly the most delicious blueberry pie I've ever made uh before my arm swelled up into a giant balloon. So I I guess it was worth it.
+
+[1:15] I don't know. Did everybody enjoy it? Oh, they loved it. Then there you go. That was that was a long time ago.
+
+[1:20] That was in uh 2001. Long time ago. That's the last time I was at Fire Island. They still have uh deer whose fur being eaten off by mange like this. There was one that was following me.
+
+[1:31] It was really freaked out. Yeah, but was it all gross looking? I didn't I walked the other way. I didn't look at it. It was at night.
+
+[1:37] Um yeah. Well, look during the day, they're mangy and disgusting. Vermin. Anyway. Uh calling all of your cooking-related questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:46] That's 718-497-2128 coming to you live from Bushwick today. So, uh, today is here's some like like an airplane in the background. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah. Today is the last of my week long my days of weeklong raw vegan diet.
+
+[2:04] I have been on a raw vegan diet since Tuesday of last week. Uh Tuesday right after we finished the low temperature sous vide class. So we put ourselves into a meat coma in the low temp sous vide class eating like a bazillion short ribs. And then right after I went on uh raw vegan, and uh, you know, because for those of you that haven't heard, I made a bet on this radio show that no one could produce a raw vegan chocolate bar that I would uh even think tasted remotely of chocolate. Um, because frankly, I figured it's impossible because you have to roast chocolate, you see.
+
+[2:39] So chocolate beans, right? First of all, the the you know, the the the you know, the the cacao, right? It comes down, it's ferments, so often right there in the fermentation process, it gets above the arbitrary number of 118 or whatever you're gonna choose for something the Fahrenheit for something to be raw. Now, it's kind of odd that you could possibly uh uh overcome what makes it raw during a fermentation process, since the raw thing is supposed to keep the enzymes alive, and it's actually life, but you know, bacteria and fermentation taking place that is causing this temperature rise. But we'll we'll leave that aside.
+
+[3:11] So often the temperature will go above one eighteen right there, but that can be controlled. But then there's a step of roasting of chocolate where it's roasted, and that's where a lot of the characteristic flavors are developed. So I'm like, well, you can't do that, so hey, what the heck? You can't have real raw chocolate. It's not gonna taste like chocolate because crap ain't been roasted.
+
+[3:28] So our former intern, Grace, brings me this stuff fine and raw chocolate, and I tasted it, and I had to agree that although it was not uh, you know, anywhere near my favorite chocolate, or you know, even a chocolate that I would choose to eat on a normal basis, its texture was wrong, etc. etc. It was a little soft. You remember the chocolate, right? It still tasted like chocolate though.
+
+[3:47] Yeah. You could eat it. It wasn't good. I mean, I could eat it though. In other words, like I've I felt like I lost a bet.
+
+[3:53] So then the problem was now I can't welch, like it's impossible for me to welch. It's like you know, not an acceptable situation. So I had to do it. The problem was finding a one-week period where I wasn't obliged to do a demonstration where I had to cook. And so this last week, right after that, uh right after the sous-vide class was the only week we had where that was possible.
+
+[4:12] So I've been raw vegan uh for a week, and I break my raw vegan fast uh tonight when I land in Austin, Texas, and I think I'm gonna eat an entire cow when I get there. You know, actually, it's not the meat that I miss the most, it's it's uh like bread and like starch. I mean, think about that no rice, no bread, no starch. Um, anyway, so I'll I'll share before we get into the questions, maybe I'll share a little bit of the, although I am gonna post on it hopefully today or tomorrow, I'm gonna share a little bit of the raw vegan uh thing. So the the whole reason that you're supposed to eat raw vegan, you know, if you believe in this sort of thing, is that uh not cooking things makes uh has make keeps the enzymes alive.
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+[4:53] The food's alive and therefore fruit foods alive, therefore it's more healthy for you. The vegan argument is an argument against animal proteins and uh either for moral reasons and also for health reasons. So it's a combination of like moral and health health reasons. Now, here's here's the thing. I don't believe it.
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+[5:09] I just don't believe it. Like, first of all, you make your own enzymes. You make your own enzymes. We make our own enzymes. Do you know what I'm saying?
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+[5:15] Like you produce your own enzymes. I don't see where consuming something whose enzymes are preserved is necessarily going to be uh that much more beneficial in general, right? Now, even assuming that you need to consume all sorts of raw enzymes, even if enzymes are good for you, even if they are necessary, right? There's nothing to say that every scrap of food that you consume has to be teeming with these enzymes, right? Also, there's plenty of things that aren't heated that don't have enzymes in them.
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+[5:41] You know what I mean? Like it has to have enzymes. It has to be like, you know, a living thing. So, like, why you're why your your salt needs to be particularly raw, which they care about. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:50] It's like I don't understand. And why every last damn thing, because it it's been shifted from the enzymes are good to cook foods are toxic. Like that's where the shift is taking place. Another thing that I don't believe. So let me just say this before I even get started.
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+[6:02] Um, there are some people who who think by the way, eating raw vegan, I know I'm not supposed to make it seem post-apocalyptic, but it is a a hardship. It is a huge hardship for someone who doesn't normally do it. You know what I mean? Especially if you have two incredibly picky kids. Now, I wasn't able to cook or prepare raw vegan for the kids because they weren't having it.
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+[6:21] They had like one or two nights of raw vegan. I did I Jen, my wife, sometimes went into the raw vegan with me, but I, you know, yesterday I made her hamburgers while I ate raw vegan. Uh I ended up actually like the like you know, okay, well, I'll get into it. One, they they say that you get this uh that you get more energy when you're eating raw vegan. I felt I am what we call a very energetic non-athletic guy, right?
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+[6:43] I have a lot of energy, but I'm not athletic. Uh and I felt like I got hit over the head with a hammer with this diet because I lost all I lost all of my energy. I was passing out tired at night. I was kind of grumpy during the day. Now I I talked to someone, they're like, well, you need to eat it for a couple of weeks to get the effect.
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+[7:02] Well, if I need to eat it for a couple of weeks, are you sure you're not just going into some sort of starvation euphoria and thinking you have more energy? Right? I mean, it is true, you do lose weight on this diet, right? I did lose some weight on this diet, uh, but you know, and and and for that, it's probably effective. If your only goal is to lose weight, your choices are so constricted, and your body's ability to process what's going on, more on that later.
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+[7:23] Like your body's ability to process what's going on is sufficiently reduced that you will, I mean, at least in the one week period, who knows if you maintain it for a long time, lose a lot of weight. I also feel like I've lost a lot of muscle mass. I don't know that I have uh less energy whether it's just because I have less energy, but I feel significantly weaker than I did uh like physically weaker than I did a week ago. So, you know, I I consumed what I consider to be a fairly healthy all-around diet based on the diet the dietetic principle of eat everything in moderation. Uh I prepare most of my own food or eat good food, so uh, and I you know I think a hamburger is healthy, right?
+
+[7:58] And that's my feeling. So this is not a diet that uh I would say that you should go on for I don't believe it's healthier, that's what I'm saying, than than the my diet that I normally have. It's not just that it's a hardship, I don't believe it's healthier. Even if it were easy to do, I would not do it by choice, right? So that that's that's said.
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+[8:18] Um you are going to get in a very good relationship with your toilet if you follow this diet. Let me just tell you, this stuff flies through you on this diet. You can't, like, there's no getting around it. You know what I mean? It's it's uh it's it's crazy.
+
+[8:32] And and and it's also extremely expensive. Now, it doesn't matter, like this is not an argument against it, but it doesn't seem to me to be like a diet, this is not an argument against it, but it's not an argument for uh a diet for the people. Everything costs eight bucks. Like everything. Like a little thing of of dip, eight bucks.
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+[8:49] A little thing of crackers, eight bucks. Anything that's raw vegan, go to the store, look at it. Look at what it costs, eight bucks. You know what I mean? Like maybe you can get like a little tiny bar or snack of something that's less, but unless you are just straight up consuming raw fruits and vegetables.
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+[9:04] And by the way, if you eat nothing but raw fruits in the morning, you crash. You get a sugar high and you crash like a mother. You know what I mean? It's just like you're and and you know I'm probably a little rambling today because I'm still in the raw in the raw vegan mode. I had uh one good meal at pure food and wine, Sarumelong Gaias's restaurant.
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+[9:20] I called her 'cause I was like, I can't deal with this anymore. I have to have someone else do this for me. I went in. But their meals are extremely, extremely labor intensive. You know, I had had these high hopes that I was going to be able to make a lot of really interesting stuff raw vegan and my time just ran out and I had to do it anyway.
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+[9:34] So my rotary evaporator is packed up so I couldn't do any low temperature uh you know brandies that you know are raw vegan even though they're they're delicious. I've had them before I know they're good. I didn't get to make the you know the raw vegan black Sapote ice cream that I wanted to get. But but all of these things are very very um they're they're esoteric. You know what I mean it'll be hard to do this in the real life.
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+[9:55] What you end up actually eating is a boatload of pineapple, like blueberries, dried fruits, and then avocado tomato, sauerkraut salads for dinner. I mean and and and you know uh I feel I f the whole week I've been feeling like um I don't know like I'm like I'm just kind of trudging along waiting for it to be over. Like you know I'm not I'm not myself. So I've I I'm glad I did it. I have the exp experience of it.
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+[10:20] It's not for me. I don't necessarily think uh that I I'd recommend it to anyone. I think it's incredibly expensive unless you are very have a lot of time to plan uh to do it. So that has been my raw food experience. What do you think, Nastasha?
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+[10:33] I think that's too bad, Dave. Well, have I been incredibly mean. I only dealt one day with you. This is the second day. Was that was I mean?
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+[10:40] Yeah, you were you were an asshole. Uh you're not allowed to say that on the air. That's, you know, this is a family program. Yeah. You know, you know, Nastachi says one thing and comes out and it's and it's a curse word.
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+[10:52] Anyway, well, only go to our first commercial break and we'll come back. Uh, calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128 cooking issues. I heat up, I can't cool down. Round and round and round it goes.
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+[11:27] Where it stops, nobody knows. Every time you call my name. I heat up like a burning flame. Burn in flame, full of desire. Custom, baby, let the fire get higher.
+
+[11:47] Heritage Radio Network is about to celebrate the hundredth episode of the main course with Patrick Martins and Katie Kiefer. The main course has welcomed talent that ranges from Temple Grandin on animal handling to Eric Asimov, the New York Times wine critic. Chefs and farmers, distributors, and restaurateurs. Everyone who is involved in the food industry gets to put their two cents in on how and why we eat what we eat. Check out the archives for more information on Fascinating.
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+[12:12] Check out the archives for more information on the fascinating roster of guests that have graced the table for the main course. And be sure to tune in to the hundredth episode, Sunday, June 6th at noon on the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[12:33] So Nastasha, we have a column coming out in Eater blog tomorrow, supposedly. And uh and that uh that's gonna basically be the same as the as the radio show, just in uh blog format, separate from the cooking issues blog, which you know we I hope to get my my raw vegan post up soon, along with all the other 15 posts that I have in backlog that I haven't written. But I'm now uh on with eater. We're gonna do I think a weekly where we answer questions. So some of these questions that uh that I've gotten by email, I might if I don't have time on the radio show, I might defer and answer them on the eater blog.
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+[13:07] And you of course you can put your questions to the eater blog now instead of having to email Nastasha and we'll get emailed to me. Some of them will get answered on the air, and some of them will get answered on the eater blog. What do you think, Nastasha? Yeah. So we're thinking of calling it uh what we're gonna what are you calling it?
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+[13:21] Issues cooking with Dave. Issues issues cooking with Dave. Yes. Nice. Yeah, nice.
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+[13:27] You like that? Issues cooking with Dave? Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay.
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+[13:31] Uh Marty Yu uh wrote in. He says uh he doesn't deep fry that often. I'm sorry, Marty, you should deep fry more often. Uh I don't deep fry that often. I'm looking for ways to preserve my fry oil.
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+[13:40] Online, I saw some articles about rosemary extract being an effective antioxidant, especially a product called Inolens 4. Do I have any experience with this product? I couldn't find a way to obtain any. And do you know if it's available uh to consumers through uh any sort of hippie dippy uh health food uh store? No.
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+[13:56] Uh I I hadn't heard of that, in fact. Uh, but I did look it up and Rosemary, you know, it's basically uh that's the kind of trade name, and I don't know where you can I don't know where you can get it, but the actual thing that you it's in rosemary that's being used as an antioxidant is uh I'm gonna pronounce it incorrectly here, is uh carnosic acid, right? So carno carnosic acid is derived from uh rosemary, there's a large amount in it. I assume it's in any kind of rosemary oil or extract that you can purchase um on you know in Whole Foods or any one of those other stores. But the problem is is that the one that they use as an antioxidant in oil, and apparently it is a fairly uh effective anti uh antioxidant to prevent rancidity, um the problem with it is is that they deodorize it, completely deodorize it, so it no longer smells like rosemary when they when they add it.
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+[14:42] Uh so you if you add it, and and they're adding it in fairly small amounts. I don't know what percentage of rosemary extract that you buy in a store is gonna is gonna have uh, you know, is gonna be the you know the the actual antioxidant, but um i you know it's in the parts per million kind of range. The the question that I wasn't able to answer, it it definitely stops um rancidity development and storage, right? Uh, you know, the breakdown of the uh of the you know in into free fatty acids on storage. But I I haven't been able to find that much information yet on the frying temperatures, whether or not it basically withstands frying temperatures and will actually help you at those temperatures, prevent oxidation, breakdown uh, you know, of the of the lipids, those kind of temperatures.
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+[15:22] But it's very interesting. So it might be fun to drop, and there's it's also by the way, in sage, not just in rosemary, and there's uh lots of antioxidants in sage and rosemary, but it might be interesting to to go to Whole Foods, buy some of this rosemary oil, put a couple drops in, and then do a side-by-side uh kind of temperature abuse. It would be a little hard to it'd be a little hard to do it completely accurately because you'd have to ramp, you'd have to ramp the temperatures up and down the same in two baths of oil, which would be difficult unless you had it in like a third bath of oil and ramping it up and down, so it'd be a difficult experiment to kind of do unless you were unless you had a professional lab. But it's it seems uh it seems interesting. Uh so if it was going to work, I would say that just rosemary oil should do the trick, but again, no experience with it, but it sounds interesting, yeah?
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+[16:07] Yeah. Yeah, rosemary oil. Rosemary oil. Uh maybe Chesray can do that. Maybe a Chesaree Casel, you know, our friend the chef, like basically has rosemary growing out of his pocket for many uses at any time.
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+[16:20] He has rosemary coming out of everything, right? Rosemary out of every orifice. The man is like the man the man sprung from a rosemary, a rosemary bush. Um anyway. Okay.
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+[16:30] Uh Mike Anonymous, which I like that name. Mike Anonymous writes in he has two questions. One, uh, one's on meat and the other's on popcorn. So meat. Uh I'm trying to buy all my meat from local uh farmers, and that usually means that it's frozen.
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+[16:43] Unfortunately, that is true because they don't sell it as fast, they don't have the pipeline out, so they s they'll slaughter it, maybe hang it, hopefully, then freeze it and have it for sale. That's just that's just the way it works, because they just don't have product all the time and they can't you know get it out of the pipeline that fast. Uh my general question is is the rule about not refreezing meat an issue of safety or quality, or both. More specifically, my question is can meat be refrozen after defrosting and manipulating? Two specific examples he's thinking of.
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+[17:09] Can he defrost a pork shoulder, make a sausage, Italian for example, and then refreeze it uh in a suitable size? And the same question goes for dumpling fillings and other ground pork products. Can you defrost a rack of ribs? Uh thinking of uh McGee's oven method for barbecue ribs and refreeze them after cooking. Good shout out to McGee and refreeze them after cooking.
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+[17:25] He would like to cook several racks and stash them away for a future meal. Okay. It is not a safety issue, Mike. It is a quality issue. Every time you freeze meat, um, the meat is dehydrating uh as it as it freezes.
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+[17:38] Water is leaving the cells, especially the way you freeze in a normal home freezer. Water is leaving the cells, and then the also the ice crystals that are formed can puncture those cells. So that when it rehydrate, when it thaws out, it essentially has to rehydrate. And if it doesn't rehydrate uh 100%, or if the cells are damaged too much, you get a huge what's called drip loss. You get a lot of liquid dripping out of out of the meat.
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+[17:58] So you're gonna see like the sack with a lot of liquid liquid dripping out of it. And the more times you repeat the cycle of freezing and thawing, the more you break down the tissue and the more liquid you're gonna lose. And in fact, that is a technique that you know you people use to break apart cells, is freeze-thought, freeze thaw, freeze-thaw, freeze thaw. Now, assuming that when the meat thaws, it doesn't drip like a lunatic and it was frozen well the first time, right? By the way, but but back on safety for a second.
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+[18:25] Freezing is not a it arrests bacterial growth, but it does not kill the bacteria, right? So as long as you have the product safe the whole time and then you cook it, refreezing it is not is not an issue. Even if you thaw it completely and then refreeze it completely, as long as you didn't temperature abuse the product, the product is gonna remain safe. Okay, so the safety concerns are the same safety concerns you would have with with anything else. The freezing itself doesn't alter the safety of it, okay.
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+[18:55] Um now uh if you take a product that's cooked, like really cooked, like a stew or a braise or something like that, the cells are pretty much cooked anyway, and so you could probably freeze it after that procedure and then uh you know, like you know, cook it and then freeze after that procedure without too much of a quality loss, especially if you were gonna freeze it in something like a vac bag or or like a very like closed ziploc where there's no oxygen. You're gonna want to keep the oxygen out because you're not gonna want it to go rancid during the the second freezing, and you're not gonna want a chance for the the uh moisture on the inside to be able to sublimate out or recrystallize on the outside and get freezer burn. But as long as you don't do those two things you might get some quality loss on refreezing. I mean I'm not gonna say that you won't get a qual quality loss but I would say that you would probably get less quality loss on something that was cooked and then uh after cooked portioned and re-frozen. So you know it's it's all a question of whether or not you get a result that that you like.
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+[19:53] I mean I think it's optimal to not have to freeze if you if you don't have to, especially if you you know your home freezer is not very good, but sometimes there's just no choice. You might want to try a very fast freeze by bagging and then putting the bags into a very heavy brine and uh ice solution and that'll drop it like a rock, freeze it really quick. But um and I think McGee also posted some stuff on that online but it's just like you would do for ice cream. Just make sure that the salt can't get to your food and the water can't touch your food. We have a collar?
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+[20:20] Mm-hmm. Alright caller uh I'll get back to your popcorn in a minute Mike Anonymous. Uh caller you're on the air. Hi I'm Marcus from Venice Beach and I just have a question about uh different salumis. You know you have the surpassata, the different type of salum's I always wonder if you could speak a little bit about that.
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+[20:38] You know um I know it's a very broad topic but well what what what in particular do you want to talk about with it? Well you know you have the subversato, you have uh the salame um what are what makes the difference in time and and so on and recipe. Alright well I mean the recipes all right so if we're talking like a Italian products, I mean they're all they're all extremely different, right? So the ba the fundamentally, let's say we're just gonna deal with pork products, right? So when you're starting with pork products, like the first thing you're gonna choose is kind of what assuming you all have the same quality of pork is going to be your fat lean ratio, right?
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+[21:15] And then how finely the parts are gonna be cut up, right? So you can go all the way to like an emulsified product like with a mortadella or something like that, where it's basically emulsified fats and and and meat, you know, and and uh muscle or like very coarse like most of the super side uh we call it hey in New York we call it super sut. Anyway, like uh most of the stuff that I get, you know, it's uh it's fairly coarse, right? Down to something like uh you know like a like the hunter sausage at the Cachatori sausages that are a little bit in between. So then you have like uh what the fat lean ratio is and then how how they're they're cut up.
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+[21:49] The next most important thing for the for these kinds of products is the spice and or sometimes wine mixture that's added to them, right? So that's where a lot of the characteristic uh stuff is gonna come into play. The ne the next thing after that is then how much they're needed by hand. So some of the stuff that we think of as uh traditionally like if you go to a deli and say salami right that they they're very or they're very finely bound together and it's because they've been kneaded with salt so they bind together and form a very kind of uh you know compact uh like mass and they're usually fairly finely chopped whereas you'll get some coarser products um that uh and I'm not even talking about whole muscle cuts like uh like you know copas or anything like that so it's like um so the the coarser ones tend to be not and needed as much so they don't pack together as much and then the the next step after that obviously is what size you pack in. So the thinner something that is going to be packed in, the the shorter the drying time, but therefore also, to my opinion, sometimes the less complex the taste, right?
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+[22:54] Then there's so many steps. The next step after that is is well, a lot of times these guys, like in Italy or in a lot of places that aren't commercial, they'll they'll do what's called wild, they'll get a wild fermentation going because the these sausages, aside from usually in the US anyway, adding some uh nitrites to it to kill botulism. The word botulism, by the way, is derived from the Latin for kind of sausage because you can get botulism in these things if they're not uh cured, you know, cured properly. So the nitrates are in there uh to prevent that. But they the so they have salts and nitrites to prevent that, but then also bacteria are growing in there, and the bacteria that grow in there drop the pH and make it acidic.
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+[23:31] That's where the tart tangy nature of uh of these sausages come from. So the temperature of fermentation and what kind of bacteria are in that also make a huge difference on the type of uh product you're gonna get. And so the combination of all of those things together, then along with you know, the the environment, its age, the microflora in the place where it's aged, are what are going to give you all the different kinds of results. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, and that's a it you know, that's in a nutshell basically what's going on with most of the with most of the the cut up products and their differences.
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+[24:07] That makes you there? I lost him. Anyway, I hope that's what he wanted to talk about. That's making me dang hungry though. I could use some salumi right now.
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+[24:19] Man, I could use some salumi. Oh my goodness. Anyway, did that answer the question? I hope so. What do you think?
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+[24:25] You make sense? I think that was great. Yes? Alright, good. See, Jack, Jack has a good answer.
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+[24:28] Whereas Nastasha sits here, calls me an A-hole. Nastasha calls me an A-hole on the air, and then's like, I don't know, I wasn't listening to what you were saying anyway. Maybe it was an answer. Mike Anonymous calls in, uh, writes in with popcorn question. He goes, What's your go-to method, high or low heat, pan with oil, microwave, or other.
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+[24:44] I make it in a saucepan with oil, heat it over high until a few kernels pop, add the remainder, and turn the heat down a little. I use a splatter screen instead of a cover, as excess steam seems to make it chewy. I make it regularly but have difficulty with uh consistently excellent popcorn. My problems are occasionally chewy, not light and fluffy, uh, corn and varying levels of pop kernels. I buy my corn from a local co-op in small quantities, so as far as I know it is fresh.
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+[25:08] I've read about people who cook it over lower heat, but that doesn't seem right to me, nor does it seem right to me, Mike Anonymous. Now, uh I haven't had any experience with uh buying popcorn from uh Coa, local co-op. Um you might have some issues there because popcorn is pretty tweaked out, like you know, not that I uh uh I have nothing for or against the you know the the good folks at uh you know whatever it is orville Reddenbach or whatever, but certain popcorn varieties uh are are much better poppers and and the the popcorn that's left over, they're called uh I believe they're called widows. The ones that don't pop, the little little kernels at the bottom that don't pop, I believe they're called widows. I used to know that.
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+[25:42] There's two basic kinds of popcorn. There's the butterfly shape that we're used to, and then there's the I forget what it's called, I think mushroom, which is the one that they use for caramel coating because it has a larger surface area and doesn't break apart. But usually we're eating butterfly popcorn. Um it's got a uh, you know, that they're fairly consistent, but they're grown to be popcorn. So there is a huge difference among varieties, and the one you get, maybe you like the taste, but maybe you don't get them all popped.
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+[26:07] I don't know. As for the my favorite technique, like by far and away, my favorite technique is the whirly pop. The whirly pop is basically a lided hinge uh with uh a wheel on it that keeps the thing agitated while while you spin it. They're like 30 bucks and you just oil and whirly pop, turn it on, uh not so high that it's gonna scorch, and you just keep turning until the stuff pops. It's got steam vents in it, so the steam seems to leave.
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+[26:31] I've never had a problem with popcorn being chewy in that. It's also a fantastic first coffee roaster if you want to roast coffee in a whirly pop. Uh do you know what I'm talking about? Does this make sense to you? Sure.
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+[26:42] You know, it's got the wooden handle on it, and it's got like a little gear on the top, and it goes down, it's got a little wire that moves around and keep this keeps the popcorn moving on the bottom. And that's what I use. Uh uh uh uh almost exclusively until my mom decided that what she was going to get me for Christmas was a movie style popcorn machine that is like, you know, it it's meant for homes, but it's big enough to be in a movie theater. It takes up my whole apartment, but the kids fell in love with it, so now that's in my house. And that works on the same principle as a whirly pop, it's just a smaller, uh, it's a smaller container than the than the whirly pop.
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+[27:16] It's basically, and that's the way most of the pro batch things work. They have uh an agitated rod with a loose-fitting flap-up lid with steam vents that allow the steam to leave so that the steam can leave while it's going. Um, you know, the popcorn kernels themselves should be well above the boiling temperature, so once it leaves, the steam's gonna want to leave. Uh spatter screen, you might have some issues with uh oil getting out or problems, I don't know. I mean, it doesn't sound like you do, but the whirly pop, if you make it often, get the freaking whirly pop.
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+[27:44] Just go buy it. You're not gonna regret it. And then you can start roasting coffee as well. What do you think? Yeah, it's good.
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+[27:48] Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Uh we have a question in from Stephen Garrett regarding pressure cookers. Hey, longtime reader of the blog and listener.
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+[27:56] Thank you, Steven. I finally got my hands on a pressure cooker, a Quisenart pressure cooker, electric model, which got christened with a pork shoulder for pulled pork. As I've never used one before, I was wondering if you had any tips, techniques, or recipes to fully utilize the machine. Uh I love the look of your egg bread and was wondering how it is done and is there a liquid in the pot. Regards, Steve from Wellington, New Zealand.
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+[28:14] Okay, Steve. I know a lot of people, Jeffrey Steingart is one who loves his Cuisinart electric pressure cooker. I what I don't know is what the actual pressure on the Cuisinart is, because the one failing of electric pressure cookers is they don't uh necessarily tell you what the pressure level on it is, right? So hopefully the cuisin art runs at 15 pounds per square inch, which is gonna, you know, uh which is what you know all standard uh pressure cookers run at, but not all electric pressure cookers. So if it runs at 15 psi, it's gonna work just like a regular pressure cooker does for anything else.
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+[28:45] The great thing about an electric is you don't have to worry about throttling the gas up and down, and it and you rarely, I think if ever, I've never heard it really scorch, have big scorching problems on the bottom of the bowl because you're not using uh a high high heat. Plus, you know, it doesn't take up a burner, it doesn't heat up the kitchen appreciably, so it's supposedly they're fantastic, although I've never really used um that one. The the interesting thing about the egg bread, we don't add any extra liquid to it. I would add some uh to the recipe, I would add a pinch of sugar or soy, not too much it'll burn. Uh but you actually don't need to make it in a pressure cooker, you can make it in a steamer, we found out later, um, because a chef randomly did it in a in a steamer instead of in a pressure cooker, and it worked just as well.
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+[29:28] Pressure cooker will work, but you can do that thing just in a uh in a steamer. And it uses its own liquid, it's just egg yolks, uh baking powder, uh salt, uh sugar or soy, uh, and just beaten together and then uh not even a lot, just like basically mixed together and then put into rammickens and steamed. You can pressure cook it. Here's what I would do with the pressure cooker. First of all, I hope the Queens Nar, I'm not sure, is non-venting.
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+[29:53] In other words, it doesn't produce steam when it's working, it's basically sealed or produces very little steam. In which case, you can use it to make some fantastic stocks, especially reinforced stocks, and like triple stocks. So if you get bones, you can do a triple stock, i.e., uh, you know, a fresh set of bones to get this incredibly stuck rich stock in like an hour. Secondly, even if it does vent, uh, from you know the guys at Modernist Cuisine, they seal their stock in mason jars. So they can do basically the work of sealed stock in small quantities in jars without having a vented pressure cook uh without having a non-venting pressure cooker.
+
+[30:25] The one I have is Coon Recon, it's expensive and also not electric. So that's very interesting. Also, garlic, pressure cooked garlic. I do it in milk typically, uh, blend it with uh for about twenty I do it about twenty minutes, then blend it with oil, that's a great pizza sauce. You can pressure Nils and I are doing a demonstration in in Texas, I'm flying out to Texas later this afternoon, and uh we're doing ramps, which are you know wild you know, allium things from the US.
+
+[30:50] Uh, we're doing a pressure cooked ramp ice cream, uh you can do onion ice cream, you can pressure cook uh horseradish and then puree it, you can pressure cook um, like I say, onions, any one of those things can be modified, pressure cooked. Did we ever put this stuff on the blog? Pressure cooked uh mustard seeds, you pressure cook them in, you first you blanch them in water, then you pressure cook them in vinegar, and then add sugar afterwards, toss it, and you get these like awesome, like they're almost like mustard seed caviar. The one thing, uh don't add a lot of if you add high sugar, things are gonna get really dark really fast because the sugar is gonna be an even higher temperature, so you might get some scorching. That's why I add the sugar to things like the mustard seeds afterwards so that they inflate properly and they and they don't you know get too brown.
+
+[31:31] Another great one is uh Hamine eggs, which are the eggs that turn brown because of the mired reactions that happen at low temperatures. Just put whole eggs, hard boil them. Uh if you I don't know if you can unseal it and let it boil. If not, like bring water to a boil with the eggs let it let it hard boil normally for like you know six minutes or so then put the hot water and the eggs in the pressure cooker pressure cooker for about an hour and when they're done hopefully they didn't break when they're done you peel them and the whites are are kind of dark nutty brown and have like a toasted kind of aroma when you cut it the yolks have a chicken liver kind of a chicken liver kind of aroma it's pretty cool so these are some good things to do uh and obviously it's really great for fast braises like like pork shoulder the one thing I have to caution you against is don't add a lot of extra liquid because you're not going to evaporate and reduce a lot of extra liquid you should you should put in your wine first and then uh then reduce it down so that it uh you know you get rid of the the kind of alcohol aroma you want to get off of it and then reduce like somewhat or pull the product afterwards and then reduce it reduce the stock but I would definitely start with less liquid than you're than you're used to uh and also you're gonna get a richer meatier taste but the texture is gonna be different because the fibers are gonna be broken apart a little more and it's because it's cooked at a higher heat it's you know overcooked overcooked in a technical sense but usually quite delicious. I actually like braises I did a uh a chili and a pressure cooker that was awesome awesome anyway uh hope that answered your question and uh get back to us and tell us tell us how it worked you want to go to one more commercial break let's go to one more break and come back calling your questions to 7184972128 that's 7184972128 cooking issues yeah some call me the gangster of love some people call me Maurice speak of the Pompatus of love Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[33:53] So I see Nastasha gave me at least one decent Steve Miller song, along with punishing me not only with a raw vegan diet for a week, but giving me the absolute worst Stephen Miller song. Right. It's unbelievable that Abercadabra was written by the same person or same people that wrote, you know, the Joker, right? I mean, I look I'm never I was never a huge Steve Miller guy growing up, but I gotta respect it. I mean that's it, you know what I mean?
+
+[34:17] Like that's real song. That's real deal. Did he say I'm a gangster of love or something? He is, yeah. I think that was the lyric.
+
+[34:23] Although some people do call him Maurice. You know, known by many names. But the but Abercadaver is gotta be the worst, the worst damn song in the whole world. Uh anyway, thank you for the quadruple punishment, Nastasha. Thank you so much.
+
+[34:40] Uh okay. Uh Brian Garrick uh wrote in with a uh Nick's de mal and alkali question in general. Uh he read the article on next mobilization in the blog, and he loves saying that word as much as we do. It is a great word. Nix damal, nix d'amal.
+
+[34:52] Uh I'm in by the way, if in case you don't know what the heck we're talking about, that's the process of taking uh a a base like calcium hydroxide is is uh classic uh and then cooking uh corn in it and uh it makes a characteristic a kind of uh flavor and texture for uh for masa dough for making tortillas. So you get that awesome. I mean it's just great. The bass basically breaks up the outside of the corn kernel, makes it easier to grind, prehydrates it, um changes the texture of it, the flavor, fantastic. Read the article on nickstamilization because unfortunately I'm not gonna have the time to go through the entire rigmarole here, but uh we love it.
+
+[35:28] Anyway, he's interested in making pretzels and possibly other things with basic solutions. Can you give me the down and dirty on all this stuff? It seems like baking soda is too weak, and you already covered calcium hydroxide with nixtimalization. Lye, which is sodium hydroxide, seems too dangerous per my article, and I agree that it is. I still use it at school, but I won't use it at home because I have kids at home.
+
+[35:47] If I didn't have kids at home and it was properly labeled, I would do it, but I'm not having that in my house with the kids. Uh Lye seems too dangerous as periodical, but what is uh but is what pretzels traditionally require. What about McGee's article about um baking baking baking soda? So you take baking soda and you and you turn it from um sodium bicarbonate into sodium carbonate. Um what about McGee's and go look it up?
+
+[36:09] It's a great article. What about McGee's article about baking baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate? Does that really work? Does it make a solution stronger? Is it safe?
+
+[36:17] And what about the stuff I found at the Chinese market? There's a bottle of clear liquid labeled potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate solution, and they also have some white crystals of borax, which are labeled not food safe, but are right next to the spices. So what's safe and what's not? I don't want to poison myself or others. And as a final note, how does eteries make fossilized the fossilized veggies in Spain, like salsa v with calcium?
+
+[36:38] What's the reaction going on there? Is it the same as the banana that we cook with calcium hydroxide? And is there any other fun applications? Well, Brian, in San Francisco, uh a lot of questions there. I'm gonna try and hit them in the little amount of time that I have uh left.
+
+[36:53] Um he is using calcium hydroxide. Uh I haven't had them, by the way, so I don't know specifically, but I have talked to people that have had uh Adoreas' the uh vegetables that are done this way. I think also um uh Rennie Redsepi at NOMA does uses this technique, and they're uh basically firming up the outside of vegetables uh using um using they use calcium hydroxide to to basically crosslink the the pectin there. And that's what's going on. Calcium cross-linking of pectin.
+
+[37:20] They're usually done in conjunction with heat treatment, uh, which activates uh the enzyme inside uh the uh inside the vegetables that causes it to happen, which is pectin methyl esterase. And so the combination of calcium and the heat uh activating the pectin methylesterase makes a very strong outside shell, uh, and then uh the inside basically is allowed to get mushy in the outside firm. Now, what I do with a banana is I inject calcium hydroxide into the banana, and the injection of calcium hydroxide makes the banana firm all the way through. We've recently done it without the calcium hydroxide by injecting with uh just calcium and then heat treating it and getting a similar result. But that's that's what's going on with with those.
+
+[38:00] Uh and you can do those and uh you know at home. It's the exact same thing that goes on with the banana, uh, which is you know traditionally done in uh Thai cooking and other Asian cooking. So, yes, that's a very good thing. That's calcium hydroxide, really lots of different forms of calcium will do that for you. Now, borax is uh used as a food ingredient in other countries, but is not legal for food use here in the U.S.
+
+[38:22] Now I don't know what the specific health problems with it are, right? But there is food-grade borax, for instance, caviar is treated with borax. It's uh it it affects the texture in a way that I'm not really don't really understand. Borax is, I think, uh, I believe it's uh it's a borate, like sodium, two sodiums, and then borate, which is like uh I think four borons and uh tetraborate, I think. Anyway, and but it's uh it uh it's used as a texture modifier but also as a preservative.
+
+[38:51] So in caviar they'll add a little borax and to fish road, they'll add borax to it as a preservative. And I read on Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of borax. But um well, this part of it, that that our caviar that we get here in the US is more highly salted because borax isn't allowed to be added to it. But it's definitely used in uh in other cultures as I've never used it, as a firming agent and as a as a preservative. Um borax, if you can get a hold of it, is also the cool stuff that you mix with Elmer's.
+
+[39:17] It's it's a it's an agent that helps polymerize things, make larger polymers. So I was finding a lot of articles on using borax borax to to make uh larger like food polymers, but not I couldn't find anything specific for you know normal use. But if you mix it with Elmer's glue, you can make slime. Borax and Elmer's glue mixed together. Silly putty is I think different, like PV polyvinyl alcohol is the is the glue is the what glue Elmer's white glue is, and if you add borax to it, it polymerizes and turns to polymerized PVA, which is slime, you know, gAC or whatever, that's stuff that's in the that's you know, that's slime, which I'm extremely interested in because I want to make a food-grade slime.
+
+[39:55] I'm working on it, but I haven't fixed it yet. Okay. The potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate solution that you see is consui. That's what's used to make um that's what's used to make the stretchy yellow alkaline noodles, right? So you add that, that's a basic solution, and that's very classic in Chinese uh, you know, recipes.
+
+[40:12] Your flour is gonna go very yellow, and it's gonna the noodles are gonna have a lot of bite to it, right? It's gonna really uh enhance the kind of gluten snappiness of those things. That's the consuway that's typically used for for the yellow aqual and noodles, although I don't know how basic it is, it might also be useful for pretzels. I'm not sure. That stuff is also mistakenly sometimes sold as lye water, even though it doesn't contain lye, which is everything everything's gotta be.
+
+[40:36] Brian, everything's gotta be a pain in the ass. You know what I'm saying? Oh, you can't see that. Like ass is different, it's a donkey. Uh it makes no sense.
+
+[40:42] You make no sense. Alright. Uh now, the converting baking soda to uh to you know, the sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate actually does work and will make a fine pretzel. Lye is traditional. I've never done a side-by-side taste test of lye boiled pretzels versus uh sodium carbonate pretzels.
+
+[40:58] Um I have made sodium bicarbonate pretzels and they were meh, meh. You know what I mean? Like like, but I've never done lye versus sodium carbonate. McGee's technique definitely does work. You can also tell if it's worked because the weight changes of the sodium bicarbonate because water is being driven off.
+
+[41:15] So you can weigh the sample before and after to verify that you have in fact converted it. Use that um to is it water that's driven off? Don't know. Or CO2. Uh I can't remember.
+
+[41:26] Anyway, I can't remember what's driven off. But then uh you can weigh it and weigh the difference, and then use that to make your pretzels, add it and do the boil. The reason you boil pretzels uh in a basic solution is because that will radically in first of all it changes the flavor, makes it taste like a pretzel and not like like uh you know something else, like a bagel or something like that. You know, because a pretzel is supposed to taste like a pretzel. First of all, pretzels should be freaking twisted.
+
+[41:49] I don't like pretzel sticks. I don't like molded pretzels, I don't like any of these pretzeloids. I don't like I don't like like fish pretz-shaped pretzels. I mean, they're okay. They shouldn't be called pretzels.
+
+[41:59] Pretzels need to be twisted because the way they break up. When you eat a pretzel, it's twisted. It breaks up in a very specific way. The pretzels are supposed to break up based on the fact that they were a stick of dough that's been twisted into a shape that we know as a pretzel, right? And so uh, you know, the the middle knot has a different texture from the nubbins.
+
+[42:14] There's also bakes differently in different parts, which adds varied uh texture to it as well. So a real pretzel, and I've taught my kids this since they were about since they could speak, I can walk up to my kids and say, what's a real pretzel? And they're like, Daddy, a real pretzel's twisted, because that is what a pretzel should be. Anyway, uh aside from that, it needs the real pretzel taste uh from the um for boiling in bait in a basic solution. It also that's gonna enhance the Maillard reaction.
+
+[42:42] So the reason pretzels are so dark brown is because they have been boiled beforehand in a basic solution. Um but I haven't done live versus sodium carbonate, but I'm sure the sodium carbonate's gonna be good. If you can have lie around, do it. If not, I'm sure sodium carbonate's a fine, fine runner up. Also, if you are going to make a hard pretzel, please do not add any oil to the pretzel at all.
+
+[43:05] Don't add any oil at all. If you take most pretzels that are bad, even twisted ones or ones on the market, I'm not gonna call out roll gold as a bad brand of pretzels, but if I did, it's because if you looked at the ingredient label or Bachman, which like would otherwise be a fine pretzel because it's twisted, they're large ones, right? Uh, if you look at the ingredient label, they have oil in it, and that reduces the texture of a pretzel from what God intended a pretzel to be, which is delicious, to that of a cracker with a dark brown crust on the outside and salt. That's not what you want a pretzel to be. Alright, now I have one last thing, and I'm gonna defer this to the eater blog, as the first one's gonna go to the eater blog.
+
+[43:46] Adam Frost uh adds a question about legumes and the a vegetal taste uh that legumes have when they're raw. And since A, I didn't have time to research it thoroughly, and B, it's time for us to go. Adam, I'm gonna answer your question on eater tonight or tomorrow, although I'm gonna have to call McGee to see what he see what he thinks. Alright? So listen, your pretzels must be twisted, your pretzels must not contain oil, and your pretzels must be boiled in alkaline solution.
+
+[44:12] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information.
+
+[44:43] Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And the guests can't get it straight. Nicole Taylor is always the first to talk with new and exciting personalities in the food world on her show Hot Grease. Check out a little clip.
+
+[44:59] Everything is super sweet in the Heritage Radio Network studios. Today, we're chatting with Fanny Gerson. Fanny is a graduate of Culinary Institute of America and the 2011 James Beard Foundation Cookbook Award nominee. Oh my God. We fry in bad style.
+
+[45:18] We have to talk dough. Donuts. I'm going to have to say, Fanny, I don't know if you know this. I was definitely the first person in Brooklyn to start talking about dough. Did you know that?
+
+[45:27] I I knew that last time I saw you. Ah. But I didn't know that before. So we have to talk dough. I mean, it is it is a bona fide phenomenon in Brooklyn.
+
+[45:37] Uh I'm so excited to be part of it. I and I can't believe it. I mean, I was just telling you before the show that uh I think about a month ago I went to dough on a Sunday at two o'clock, and all the donuts. You like what you hear? You can hear hot grease every Monday at 3 30 p.m.
+
+[45:52] live on Heritage Radio Network.com. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast or check it out in our archives. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. This little nugget comes from Food Safety News, which is a blog that you can get every single day if you want to sign up for it. I love it.
+
+[46:11] And in this one, it says, in what qualifies as ground shifting news in the food safety world. The U.S. Department of Agriculture today, too, on Tuesday, lopped 15 degrees off of its recommended temperature for safely cooking whole cuts of pork, aligning it with guidelines already in place for beef, veal, and lamb. Heating steak, roasts, and chops to an internal temperature of 145 degrees Fahrenheit, so long as the meat sits briefly before it's eaten is enough to ensure its safety, the USDA said. This latest revision for pork comes again on the advice of the FSIS, which is this food safety inspection service, which says cooking cuts of pork to 145 degree Fahrenheit with a three minute rest is as safe as cooking them to one sixty degrees, the previously recommended temperature with no rest time.
+
+[46:58] So now you can have a little bit of pink juicy pork, even if you're buying commodity pork, which should vastly improve its taste and eating quality. This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Keefer.
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+[0:00] The following is a public service announcement from Just Food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the Just Food City Chicken Project 2011. The City Chicken Project would not be possible without the volunteer hours, donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work with. Just Food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make fresh, locally grown food accessible to all. To donate, search on Kickstarter.com for just food and find their City Chicken Project.
+
+[0:34] For more information on Just Food, visit just food.org or call 212-645-9880. That's 212-645-9880. Let's keep making New York City a better place to live and eat. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 here in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and special unannounced guest caller in, Harold McGee.
+
+[1:18] So we're gonna is Harold there? Good morning, Dave. Good morning, good morning. How are you doing? To listen, I didn't tell any guys out there that he was gonna be on.
+
+[1:27] We're gonna I actually told him, can you just answer these two questions? I'm gonna try and keep them on as long as I can. So if you we we if a caller calls in, will you take it? Uh uh you know, I'd love to uh if we can maybe get this uh the phone connection fixed, because I'm hearing uh like every other millisecond of your of what you're saying. Alright, why don't we do this?
+
+[1:48] Uh Jack, why don't you re re-establish that connection? I'll just do the top of the show uh kind of crud, all right? We'll reestablish Harold's questions. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-2497 2-28.
+
+[2:03] And oh Nastasha, today's going to be a Texas themed uh songs in the in the middle because I just got back from Texas. Did you choose them already? Uh I did choose them already. Uh by the way, today's a show brought to you by City Chicken, right, which is Nastasha's next band, I think City Chicken, right? But on the on the subject of raising uh livestock uh in the city, uh something I've been interested in a long, long time is micro livestock.
+
+[2:26] The uh the I believe it's the FAO put out a book on micro livestock maybe about 15 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, and I read it with much interest. Did you know, Nastasha, that there are breeds of livestock that, although not as efficient at producing meat or milk as the larger breeds of livestock, can be raised in situations where you don't have enough land to produce even one. So if you you don't have enough pasture to raise even one cow, you can raise two micro cows, and those two micro cows will produce one third of the milk of a of a regular cow but you couldn't even raise a regular cow, right? You like that? Wow.
+
+[2:57] So what I want is if anyone is willing to raise some sort of micro livestock illegally in the city, I think we should chip together and buy them one. Like buy it like buy like a couple people have pet pigs but like what if you had like a micro eating pig? You know what I mean? Or like eh, you know, and they raised it in their apartment. Do you think we should support that or no?
+
+[3:14] No. Why not? Sure take on another take on another project. Well that's not a project. Someone else is going to do it.
+
+[3:19] All we have to do is buy them the animal anyway. Something to think about. Do we have uh Harold back on the line? Harold's back. Harold's back.
+
+[3:27] Very good. Is that connection better, Harold? Uh it is, yeah, so far. Good we'll we'll hope that uh since it's my cell phone number, I hope that uh connection stays here. Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:37] Cell phone. I know he you are you were also a victim of ATT and T as am I, right? Yes. Yes. Yes.
+
+[3:43] Got an got an email from them yesterday saying, Welcome to the new T A T and T. I hope this one works. All right. Uh okay. So the the first question we had in was about uh legumes.
+
+[3:56] It comes from Adam Frost. Um and I I guess he's uh out of the UK because he spells flavor with the UK kind of uh fashion. But he says, uh legumes and some grains have a slightly acrid vegetable taste when raw, but this dissipates after a certain amount of cooking, usually proportional to the size of the seed. Is this the work uh and or destruction of enzymes? Also, if you cook some starchy food, again, grains and legumes, for far too long, approximately twelve hours, they can develop an off flavor that is difficult to describe.
+
+[4:24] If you know what I'm talking about, do you know what causes this? Now I tried to figure out this answer on my own, but I realized this is really Harold's, you know, uh purview. Also, before before I go, I didn't introduce Harold. For those for like the two people who might have ever listened to this who don't already know who Harold is, Harold McGee is the uh is the grandmaster of uh science as it relates to making things uh delicious. Wrote uh the seminal book on food and cooking, first edition, right, which you need to go buy, even if you have the new one, you need to go buy the old one because it's quite different from the current on food and cooking.
+
+[4:57] Uh both books have been uh, you know, since eighty four, I think, uh, and the other one since when, like two thousand and four. The the uh the things that you need in your kitchen if you want to help explain what's going on while you're cooking. It's like it's the reference work. If you get one book, get that one. That's kind of how it works.
+
+[5:15] But you should also buy the old one. Uh I'm OG Herald, by the way. I had the original before the new one came out, so I consider myself OG, OG Herald fan. Uh you also need to go on Bookfinder and pick up a copy of Curious Cook, which is going to teach you more, in my opinion, from knowing you for several years, kind of uh how Harold thinks when he's thinking about things, which is the most important uh thing to do when you're when you're trying to observe food closely and figure out what's going on. And so that's like the more personal book and the and the the newest book is uh key the keys to cooking, right?
+
+[5:47] Keys to good cooking. And what that is is basically like short form, like how to get the answers quick on what's going on without having to delve into the depth of on food and cooking. Would you say that's accurate? Uh yes, I'm very generous. Thank you.
+
+[6:02] And the new book, which i it's not even scheduled, but the one I know he wants to write, is like the next magnum opus. I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about this, but the next magnum opus, I think that's gonna come out, is uh and and it could be you know a billion years, I don't know, is something on take taste and flavor, and it's probably gonna be the most difficult if I had to write it, it would be the most difficult of the ones so far because there's so much not known uh and there's so much work being done, and it's such a complicated subject. Would you say that's fair or no? No, uh that's absolutely right. And in fact, that uh that's kind of in the background of uh these questions that you uh sent to me.
+
+[6:42] Right, which is both in in their various ways about flavor and uh how complicated it is to figure out what's going on in real foods. Right, which is why I knew you'd be on top of it. So what are your thoughts? Well, uh so on this question about legume and grain flavor, uh it does turn out that uh uh the the flavors of of legumes, especially dried beans and peas and so on. You know, it's very distinctive, and it does have to do with uh very high levels of uh enzymes in the seed that break down uh fats and fatty related uh molecules, oils, um phospholipids and things like that that you find in the membranes of the cells, breaks them down into smaller pieces.
+
+[7:29] Uh big molecules like fats and oil, they don't have intrinsic aromas of their own or flavors, but when you break them down into smaller molecules, then we can taste them and we can smell them. And so it turns out that uh characteristic flavors of those things uh do have to do with very high levels of certain uh fat breaking enzymes that generate lots and lots of um six carbon and eight carbon uh molecules that have the flavor of kind of grass and leaves and things like that on the one hand and mushrooms on the other hand. So in a way, the the flavor of legumes in particular is uh leafy greens plus mushrooms combined together. Um and so uh Adam's question about um that that flavor is there for for quite a while, but then it it sort of dissipates during cooking. Uh what what happens during cooking is that at first uh that encourages the action of those enzymes, so they actually generate more and more of these um uh flavor compounds.
+
+[8:37] But then with time the enzymes get killed by the heat, and then the heat also uh uh drives off those molecules, forces them to react with other molecules, and so those particular qualities kind of fade into the background. Ask Harold and ye shall receive. Right? Um have you ever experienced the cooking for a long time off flavors on starchy foods? I've never cooked just grains or uh beans by themselves for a long time.
+
+[9:14] I've certainly cooked in reheated uh pots of um uh bean dishes and that kind of thing, but that's different because you've got herbs and spices and other stuff in there, and that's gonna change the the equation. So I've never actually done the experiment of cooking uh beans for twelve hours to see what happens to them. Uh I I don't really know offhand what uh sorts of molecules you would get because you know that's essentially taking the process I just described and expending it for uh a long, long time. And uh so that's that's an experiment I have to do. Right.
+
+[9:51] I mean, I would guess the two choices are the water is s slightly alkaline and you're getting some sort of myd reaction that you perceive as an off-flavor because you don't want that breadiness, or two, you're getting some sort of fat oxidation on whatever fats are left over. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, it could be those. It could be that you're uh because at the same time that you're creating flavor, you're also losing it because you're cooking it for so long.
+
+[10:13] You know, uh the the more volatile molecules are gonna go away and you're gonna be left with the less volatile stuff. And so the balance of aromas is gonna change, and maybe it's just gonna be something that doesn't smell as much like beans or or grains as you expect them to. So you're like losing a masking flavor. Yeah, yeah. Uh but I I don't think, you know, uh Adam posed the question uh as um uh it having to do with the starchiness of these particular uh foods, but they're seeds, which do have a lot of starch.
+
+[10:47] Uh I don't think the starch has much to do with it, except that uh it's possible that starch might be with with the long cooking, uh the starch uh grains break open and you you end up with uh with free starch, which ends up in the cooking liquid eventually. Uh that stuff may be binding some of the aroma molecules. Um that certainly is is known in the food science literature that amylose and amylopectin can actually bind aroma molecules, which then means that they're not available to our noses to uh to smell. So that might be part of it as well. Right.
+
+[11:25] So you th you probably think it's not like uh a starch hydrolysis over time, that's and then the smaller things breaking down into something else. Uh yeah, I I I kind of doubt it, but uh but I don't know. Yeah. All righty. Well, uh again, you are the perfect man to ask these questions.
+
+[11:43] Uh the second one that I thought you were perfect for, being a San Franciscan or what do you call yourself? San Franciscans. What what are you guys? Folk from San Francisco? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:55] We we don't have a uh we we need to develop a good term for that. Rice Aroni eaters. Right. Um this question is on sourdough, which I know you've researched um quite a bit, uh uh, especially as r uh regards its uh flavor compounds. And so um this this one's for you from uh Christian uh Swanpole.
+
+[12:17] You think you pronounce that Swan pole? Swanpole? How do you think you can do it? Sounds like to me, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[12:22] Uh from New Zealand, and we love the New Zealanders and the Australians, especially because they have come up uh uh in force to say that the show today tonight or tonight today or whatever it is that was anti-miklu is a is a like tabloid farce. Uh maybe more on that later if we have time, I doubt we will. He writes, uh I've read quite a bit about sourdough starters and there seems to be a lot of different information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect the starter and also the final bread dough. Peter Reinhart, who's a you know well known author in the bread world, says that a firmer starter promotes the production of lactic rather than acetic acid. Well instructions that come with a starter I bought, because the one he raised himself died because he neglected it, join the cru uh club Christian, uh says exactly the opposite.
+
+[13:04] The instructions also say that warmer temperatures encourage lactic acid and cooler temperatures acetic. I've read elsewhere that putting the dough in the fridge halts yeast activity while lactobacilli continue to produce acid. Could you please clear this up for me? And uh he maybe you want to handle that one and then handle the second question, second pronged this after? Uh yeah, because it is that is a different uh different kind of question.
+
+[13:27] All right but uh so uh he starts his question by saying there seems to be a lot of different uh pieces of information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect starter and final red dough boy is that true that there's a lot of different pieces of information out there. So when I reviewed the literature uh back in the early part of the century, you know, 2000, 2003 or so for uh the second edition of my book uh the the lesson I drew at the time was that uh cooler temperatures are actually uh and and uh firmer starters are better for the yeast. Because you know, sourdough is essentially uh you've got yeast that are providing the gas for leavening, but you've also got bacteria that are generating a lot of the flavor, including acids, which is why it's a sourdough. And uh some acid is good for flavor um and for other properties of the sourdough. Um, but too much means that the yeast don't get a chance to generate uh enough uh uh carbon dioxide to give you a nice leaven loaf.
+
+[14:42] So you want the bacteria to do well, but you really want the yeasts to do well too. And the problem is that they the the acids of the bacteria inhibit the growth of the yeasts. So there is this delicate balancing act in general between the yeasts and the and the bacteria, even before you get into issues of the difference between lactic acid and acetic acid, which are both acids. Uh so on the question of the balance between the yeast and the bacteria, the lesson I took three, four years ago was that, uh I guess it's longer ago now than that, uh ten years ago, um, uh that lower temperatures, fermentation temperatures and firmer starters gave the yeast a better chance of um uh being there in enough numbers to give you a good dough. Uh I uh I took another look uh last night and this morning, and even that seems to be uh in question now.
+
+[15:42] So the the the basic problem with the whole thing is that uh it's such a variable system that depending on who's doing the experiment and what the conditions are, people are coming up with completely uh opposite um findings as to you know what's what are the best conditions for uh the growth of the yeasts or for getting particular sets of acids. And I just don't know who to believe. Right. Um I mean part of it is it's extremely complicated because it's not it's not anywhere close to a single system. You're dealing with with you know dozens at least uh you know, on the on the small amount of research I was able to do, dozens of different um lacto uh lactobacilli uh strains that are involved uh in different sourdough starters, multiple, multiple bacteria per starter, dozens that are that are commonly known, plus different uh yeast, some wild, and and the balance of those two things is affected by many things, including the type of flour, the ash content of the flour, the temperature, the hydration, all of it affects it, right?
+
+[16:43] I mean it's it's it's just an incredibly complicated system. Yeah, yeah. How often you stir it, um uh how much you aerate it during the stirring, so your stirring technique makes a difference. Right. Because uh oxygen uh something that's useful to remember in general, and this I think uh has not been contradicted by anything, uh yeasts uh actually do need oxygen to uh to grow well.
+
+[17:11] Um and of course, in a in a dough, um you're you're essentially forcing them to do with with very little, but when you're encouraging them to um to grow in your starter so that you start out with a good dose of them in your bread dough, uh it's really good to to whip that uh sourdough starter or knead it if it's a firmer starter a lot in order to get air in there to give the uh the yeast a leg up on the bacteria. Right. And uh, you know, there's a couple bunch of different kinds of the lactic acid bacteria, some of which, the uh most of which actually, the hetero uh fermentive ones will actually produce some CO2, and that's how they produce acetic acid at the same time if there's oxygen present or other things like fructose. There's like, you know, so adding air will also increase the amount of acetic versus adding oxygen rather will increase the amount of acetic versus lactic acid. I mean, it's just the whole thing's complicated.
+
+[18:11] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and as the second part of Christian's question indicates, uh, just getting the thing to grow at all is such a challenge that I myself am happy not to worry about the lactic versus acetic balance, because but it's true that those are two different acids. One has an aroma and the other doesn't. One is uh your the the aroma of vinegar, and you want a little bit of that, but not too much. Uh and lactic acid gives you maybe a kind of cleaner tartness than acetic does.
+
+[18:44] But those are real fine points, and the the important thing to begin with is just getting something going and relatively stable so that you can then begin to refine the the results. Well, uh this has been very enlightening. Can you stay with us past the next uh past the first break or no? Yeah. Super.
+
+[19:02] All right, we're gonna go to our first break. Calling your questions to Harold McGee and cooking issues at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. They had a war of out for me all over the country. And I was trying to beat two wraps in Idaho.
+
+[19:23] I was breaking into a school house Sunday morning without warning. When I saw the sheriff coming for me, slow from down below. His deal gray eyes were blazing lay solid. His hand was on his gun when he rolled up. He said you kill that woman.
+
+[19:45] And oh, you shot her why you do it. I'm taking you to Austin that I'm gonna lock you up. Well, he tied me with the flour line the next morning. Oh god, I love that song. That's uh Johnny Cash, Austin Prison.
+
+[20:01] Using that song because I just got back from Austin from the IACP uh conference. Uh did a demo with Nils and Chris Young from the Modernist Cookbook, and then MC'd uh the awards with uh with Chris Young. We went to a lot of barbecue, but that's the only Austin song I know, even though it's like one of the biggest music towns in the city, Austin Prison. And then my favorite part about it is Johnny Cash goes a s a crazy screaming lynch mob waited in the streets of Austin, which we didn't quite get to, but great song. You a Johnny Cash fan, Harold?
+
+[20:30] I am gotta be gotta love Johnny Cash. One of my great musical regrets is I never got to see Johnny Cash before he died live. So I've seen many of my uh many of my idols, but not never got to see Johnny Cash. Anyway, um speaking of Chris Young and a modernist cuisine, uh, Nastasha, Harold, maybe Chris Young, and I, and Doug Duda from the uh ISCP, uh are all I think Doug's gonna go, are all traveling very soon at the beginning of July down to uh South Dade, Florida, to have a mango orgy. We're going to eat.
+
+[21:07] Well, come on, you can call it that. They have something like 400 varieties of mango, several hundred varieties of avocado, I believe upwards of seven uh no hundreds of varieties of avocado, upwards of seventy-five varieties of jackfruit. And we're gonna do a mega two-day tasting uh of the type that we have done with um citrus and apples, and then you know, Stasha and I did with pears. I'm pretty excited about it. You, Harold?
+
+[21:32] Very much, very much, yes. I got got to get into training, though. You know, those are high acid fruits. Oh my god. I know we should we should probably we always joke about it, we should probably carry some sort of antacid with us, right?
+
+[21:44] Actually, that's a that's a good idea. That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. Although, you know, that's that's takes care of the stomach, but what about the taste buttons? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:55] Uh we're also gonna need I'm gonna need to sh I'll ship, I need to ship a fruit knife down there, or eat or else check luggage, right? Because we're gonna need a fruit tasting knife. Uh I'm gonna need uh I gotta figure out a way because we gotta pack the avocados. We can't taste the avocados that day. I need a good packing technique.
+
+[22:11] I was thinking maybe foam in place. I'm working on it. Anyway, it's gonna be it's gonna be an epic tasting, and no one's gonna be down there because who the heck wants to be in the very southern tip of Florida uh, you know, at the beginning of July. Uh it turns out I'm flying my family out after that for like the only family vacation we've ever taken via airplane, and I was gonna take my kids to the Everglades because my youngest son likes uh uh croc uh alligators. And then uh, but I forgot that my older son has a phobia of flying insects, like almost as bad as the girl from the movie Chocolate, but not quite that bad.
+
+[22:42] And uh and I was recounting to my wife last night as we were going to bed, how um the mosquitoes are like you know, you know, huge fat mosquitoes that swarm on you like like like I've never seen anything like it. Uh I read a quote yesterday from the Everglades, because I want to take them to the Everglades that you swing a quart jar and gallon uh and get a gallon of mosquitoes, and it's it's true. It's unbelievable. So my wife, my wife was like, Dave, you are an extreme idiot. What made you think we should go to the Everglades at the height of mosquito season?
+
+[23:12] So now we're trying to think of something else to do in South Florida on the way to visit my 92-year-old grandpa. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Um I'm just excited about the mangoes. That's all I'm gonna say about it. And the avocado.
+
+[23:24] Remember, uh, I don't Harold, I told you they have an avocado that's seedless and is shaped like a banana. Yes, yes. I I don't I still don't believe that. I think that's uh it's it's gotta be a mythological avocado. It can't be real.
+
+[23:37] Well, well we'll we'll find out. If it if look, if it's real, I I can't believe it hasn't been commercialized. It's absurd because she said uh it tastes good, and basically you just score it when it's you know when it's hard, and then you let it ripen and you peel it like a banana, which is great because most avocados I find difficult to peel like a banana, to say the least when they're ripe. Yeah. Um although that might be an interesting idea to pre-score an avocado when it's hard, let it ripen, and then just peel it off.
+
+[24:02] Of course, then what are you gonna do? You can't eat it with a seed like that. Dumb, dumb. Anyway, uh another thing, Harold. I had a I was doing some reading in Eric Bloch's uh garlic book, garlic and alliums, and uh, you know who has one of the foremost collections of alliums in the world?
+
+[24:16] New York Botanical Garden. New York Botanical Garden. Let's organize a tasting next time you're in New York, huh? If it's good, if it's a good season, right? Do you know those guys at all?
+
+[24:25] Uh I know a couple of people there, yeah. Yeah, I've got that'd be an interesting tasting. No one's gonna want to get near us. Right? Won't invite Nils to that one.
+
+[24:36] He hates he hates raw garlic, detests it, hates it. Um that's another good uh good thing to do when you have a kitchen handy because you're gonna want to cook some of them. Okay, back to the questions. Uh by the way, call in your questions to uh to us or to Harold at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[24:54] Okay, Ryan Santos writes in with a custard question. Uh he has an issue this week uh with uh a buttermilk custard panicata. He's doing an off-site catering event, not his forte, but it's in an air conditioned room, which will have no access to refrigeration during the event. The event is three hours. So is a cooked custard safe to sit that long at AC temp, or well, I have to ice bath it.
+
+[25:14] If it is safe, what would you suggest to use so that it stays set? I figure gelatin may get too soft over time. A mix of carrageenans, perhaps. Uh I would not worry about the safety, Harold, would you? I mean, and not um I would not worry at about it at all.
+
+[25:27] No, no, because it's been thoroughly cooked and uh it's air-conditioned room, so it's not gonna be that hot. And three hours, uh three-hour event, yeah, that sounds sounds safe. Yeah, um yeah, I'm I'm totally okay with that. Um you know, if if you if you're worried about the gelatin, which you might be, especially during transportation and whatnot, uh, I would uh use um you would use uh carrageenans. Um it the the reason to use carrageenans in milk-based systems is that it takes a preposterously small amount of carrageenin to set a milk baked system.
+
+[26:03] So you're gonna want to use a very little amount, otherwise it's gonna be too hard. Kappa is gonna be brittle and iota is gonna be soft. Um you could use a mix since most carrageans are mixed anyway. Iota is good because if it should break, it'll reform along that line, so it might prevent cracking or anything like that. If you you find that uh you're using just kappa carrageen and it's too hard, you can add a little bit of locust bean gum, which is gonna soften it up a little bit.
+
+[26:27] Uh any any thoughts on that, Harold? Uh that sounds good. Uh, you can also go the old fashioned way, use a little bit of uh starch or flour. See, see, old fashioned way. See why we need someone tempering this show.
+
+[26:44] You know what I mean? It's like, you know, all the simple stuff. I'm like, go get a bunch of carragain and mix it in. Um yeah. I uh also uh the one thing I always say with safety with hydrocolides, I don't know if it's been proven or Harold, whether you've done any further research, but a while ago there was some uh work saying that perhaps kappa carragenin w is not necessarily um a hundred percent uh safe to use uh from a car carcinogen standpoint in uh very acid systems, but I doubt that uh buttermilk is acid enough for it to really be a problem.
+
+[27:12] Your thoughts on that. Um yeah, I haven't looked at it recently, but that that sounds correct. Also, as you say, it's it's a tiny quantity and it's a dessert, and so people aren't gonna be getting a whole lot, uh, certainly a lot less than somebody's gonna get if they eat some seaweed. Right. Yeah, chew on some uh yeah, don't go out and get the seaweed, squeeze a bunch of lime over it and start uh start chomping on it.
+
+[27:36] Uh although you know what? Like I haven't seen anything on that research in a long, long time, so I'm wondering whether or not it's um uh whether or not it's even current research. Yeah, I'll I'll take a look at that uh today. Get back to you. Yeah, cool.
+
+[27:51] Um, speaking of current research, so you know the most recent post, although it's like two weeks old now, that I have on the site is uh my defense of transglutaminase. And this uh this guy writes in and and says uh, you know, basically that his wife has had a whole bunch of uh gastrointestinal problems and surgeries, and um, and she really liked to eat chicken McNuggets, literally chicken McNuggets and cheap qual cheap cuts of meat, and I can't guarantee that it wasn't T G that did it to her. And of course, of course I can't, you know what I mean. I also can't guarantee it wasn't space people that did it to me. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:35] I can't prove a negative like that's crazy, you know what I mean? Um But something I uh uh I just want to say about this uh is that uh everywhere on the internet, and this is the this is as much as I think the internet's literally the greatest tool that uh has ever been given to us in terms of anything really, but cooking as well, um there's so much crap that gets uh propagated, like continuously propagated uh on the internet. Uh, and I guess it it the same thing happened actually back in the uh in actual literature, like you've traced like the searing myth, famously trace the searing myth, um, and just keeps on getting uh propagated, you know, uh writer after writer after writer until somebody squashes it. Everyone says that chicken McNuggets are made with transglutaminase. And uh the fact of the matter is trickin the chicken McNuggets were uh first uh released onto the scene in 1980 before uh before microbial transglutaminase was available, uh, and I guarantee you they weren't using guinea pig liver transglutaminase because it's too expensive and needs calcium to work.
+
+[29:40] Uh you do not need transglutaminase to make a chicken McNugget. Uh nowhere have I ever been able to find any reference that even even obliquely says that McDonald's uses transglutaminase in their chicken and McNugget formulation. Now, I'm willing to I mean they could use it, that's a way to do it, but it's by no means necessary. And so uh I wish people would stop saying that um that you know TG is the is the reason, you know, McNuggets how McNuggets came to be. Because it's just not not true.
+
+[30:11] Even if there is TG in the formulation now. Um, these pe people just get all bent out of shape about stuff that they have no data about. You know, what do you have you ever heard of TG being used in a McNugget? Um I uh have to confess I haven't read a lot about uh chicken McNuggets. Right.
+
+[30:32] Uh uh either way. Um but you know, people have been sticking odd scraps of meat together for millennia. Uh and I mean that's essentially how sausages work, right? You you salt chunks of meat and that draws some of the myosin out of the um the meat, and myosin is a sticky protein and things stick together. And it's as simple as that.
+
+[30:56] Yeah. Boom. No TG required. You know? Yeah.
+
+[30:59] Uh and it's uh, you know, it's called uh the primary bind when you're making sausages, and it's how it works. It's how it's how it's always worked. Um, you know, and I'm sure that they have a uh chicken and McNugget batter that they have like some kind of blended chicken with salt, some pieces, and they just keep folding it until the until uh you know the myosin's developed, and then it'll stick in whatever shape they want. I mean, no problem. Uh and it's a lot uh cheaper than using transglutaminase, and uh from a production standpoint, they don't have to worry about uh setting times or setting rates, so it's probably easier for them to not use it uh in that in that application.
+
+[31:40] Um so you know, that's one of those things I I wish people would just do a little bit, like even like a tiny bit of research. But if you look everywhere, it says nuggets. Now, an interesting one is surimi. So surimi, right, is uh f like fish, like basically it's it's kind of if you read about how seremi is made, it's kind of horrific. Wouldn't you agree, Harold?
+
+[32:01] I mean it's kind of it's it's kind of just horrible. It's like to like they deflavor uh they de-aromatize and and you know, wash any normal kind of flavor out of like whatever kind of fish scrap crap they have lying around, and then you know, uh basically re-gel it again in uh kind of seremi shapes, and they're formerly were made without transglutaminase, um although there's evidence that there's endogenous, meaning uh you know already occurring transglutaminase that might have some that add to some of the gelling capability of the fish mix. Um but there is it is true that in current surimi applications, an attempt to use fish that don't have a high enough gelling power to make it adequate seremi on their own that they are uh uh adding transglutaminase to it. But don't blame Cerimi on transglutaminase, just you know, the attempt to extend it even further. Um yeah, are you a big suremi guy, Harold?
+
+[33:00] You know, I actually kind of enjoy it every once in a while. It's got it's got that nice kind of bouncy texture to it. Um so you know, a slice on top of some ramen with with uh the other stuff. I I kind of like that a lot. Yeah.
+
+[33:14] Also, you would you would have no uh California roll without the surimi, right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you were just using avocado and if you were to use shrimp instead of surimi, it wouldn't be right, right?
+
+[33:25] That's right. And I couldn't eat it. Oh, right. Yeah. Wait, that's an interesting question.
+
+[33:30] They do they only use uh uh fish in sarimi, or do they ever put the uh do they ever put other things like shrimp into it? And if they did, is it so thoroughly washed that any uh protein that's causing you a problem is washed away from it? Well, I think the uh uh the protein that causes me the problem is actually a component of the muscle um uh the set of muscle proteins, it's tropomyosin. So I have a feeling it would stick around uh even through the the sere me processing. But the whole point of ceremony is that you use really, really cheap uh like pollock or something like that to make something like crab or shrimp.
+
+[34:11] And um, so I think it's uh the idea of actually using crab or shrimp or some kind of crustacean in the surimi is just uh it's against the whole idea of ceremony in the first place. Again, again, good insight. All right, can you stick around for one more cycle of this? Sure. All right, call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[34:33] That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Guitars do good and firm feeling women. Got you with me tonight. Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love. Let's go to Lupin Bactics.
+
+[35:00] Willing will be in the boys. The successful life for a living got us few black head feels and because Williams pain songs. Blueberry's train songs and blue eyes crying in the rain. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Every Sunday at 4 30 p.m.
+
+[35:44] tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house. A weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired, and despised. Each week, Curtis B. Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture themes to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms.
+
+[36:06] Again, that's every Sunday at 4 30 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Whalen Jennings, Luke and Vach Texas, another classic, right? From our Texas theme uh thing. That that song is great.
+
+[36:23] In fact, uh, Whalen, you know, Jennings unfortunately died way too young, but um uh the person I used to play bass with in my high school band is in his son shooter's band. Pretty cool, right? Cool. Shooter Jennings. I've never seen Nastasia look so excited on the show.
+
+[36:41] Jeez. Okay, you know, Nastasha doesn't really much Nastasha doesn't like stories really or people, so she doesn't like uh country music much. Is this accurate? Except for Merle, you now you like Merle. I just don't like hearing the story over and over and over.
+
+[36:55] It's the same story. What yeah, Harold, can you believe this? Yeah. You know, what you know what what am I Yeah? People.
+
+[37:07] People, this is this is this is what I this is what I put up with people. This is what I put up with. Anyway. Okay. Uh a question uh actually posted on um and we'll I'll rip through this one uh quick but it's of interest to some people.
+
+[37:21] Katie HP wrote into the blog actually has a question hoping we can give the answer. I received a country ham for a Christmas gift. I was told you can store them almost indefinitely so I put it in my refrigerator. Now I'm told I should have stored it in the cupboard. My question is did I ruin it and have I stored it too long any answers would be appreciated.
+
+[37:37] Well I don't know how long you stored it. Well Christmas right? Christmas gift. No, no. It's fine.
+
+[37:44] It's fine. It's fine. Uh if you've already cut into it you might get some mold here's the problem. American country hams are a little soft in the middle uh because of the way they're cured typically unless they're really really aged. So if it's already been cut into you might get some kind of unfriendly green mold or some kind of like brie like candida mold right on that face.
+
+[38:03] And unless it's penetrated so far into the meat that you get an off flavor on the inside you can just cut a little bit of that off, scrub any other mold off the off side uh outside of the meat and uh I'd be more worried about um the fat picking up flavors from the fridge. Next time freeze it or if you want to age it more hang it. Uh I wouldn't put it in the cupboard because uh mites uh really like dark uh kind of cool places to chew on ham and I've I've had that happen. Uh any what do you what do you think, Harold? You ever stored meat for a long time?
+
+[38:34] Uh yeah. Uh I've I kept a country ham for like a couple of months um downstairs at my place. You know, I'm in San Francisco, which is uh cool to cold year round. So I don't have uh some of the problems you'd have other parts of the country, but um yeah, in in the cool, in in the not completely dark, but semi-dark, uh kept for months for fine. Yeah.
+
+[39:01] Yeah. But I had one that I stored literally in a cupboard, and when I opened up the bag, it was like mite, mite central. You know, once you I I once had like 10 to 15 hams in my house, and one of them had a mite problem, which is common, uh, but they usually they they do a uh they gas the mites out um in um in in production. And uh uh and once you have them in your house, like it's the next time you bring a ham in, it just chews up the ham. But uh I would not worry about that ham uh other than any sort of uh I mean the fridge is problematic from an aroma standpoint, right?
+
+[39:35] And that's pretty much it. Uh yeah, yeah. Uh but but speaking of ham mites, I've never experienced ham mites. Did they do anything interesting to the flavor the way cheese mites do to cheese? Uh interesting question.
+
+[39:50] Um I've never thought about it that much because I usually trim away the mitey area. I've never done like just a tasting of it. They say it makes it bitter, but of course they say the same thing about cheese mites. There's the famous mite cheese, uh I think from Austria, Austria or Germany, where they take Kvark and they let it uh age in mites uh until it's basically a big pile of mite. Have you ever tasted that stuff, the mite cheese?
+
+[40:17] I I haven't tasted that, but in France, there's a uh you know, a tome de Savoie, uh kind of dry uh long aged uh cow's milk cheese from the mountains uh in the eastern part of the country. There's a version of that called Tom Tom de Savoie Syronnay. Um eaten by mites. And I went to uh some farmers markets when I lived in France, and you could, you know, approaching the the market from the parking lot, you could smell it from uh from the edge of the lot. I would just follow my nose.
+
+[40:52] And I actually find that that aroma delicious. So I know some people can't stand it, but there are people who who do appreciate it. So I wonder whether you can get the same kind of effect from ham. Huh. Uh is it was it uh is it bitter at all?
+
+[41:05] Is it impart bitterness to the cheese? Um I yeah, I don't think so. No. I I don't uh I'm thinking back now to the times I've had it, which are many, and uh it's it's mainly an aroma thing. And um, you know, you don't want to actually eat the the frass, you know, the the stuff that the mites have actually chewed on, but they they produce this compound.
+
+[41:30] I think it's uh pheromone, you know, they use it for signaling signaling each other, and it gets into the meat of the cheese itself, and uh it's delicious. Well, you know, the the one uh from either Austria or Germany that's done with Quark, you actually I think eat the mites. Like it's basically it's like mites all the way through. Um I'll be interested. Is Nastash is this your worst nightmare?
+
+[41:56] It is. Yeah, yeah. Uh Nastasha, another uh this this should just be like the Nastacha's quirk Show. She can't look at leaves that are deformed. She can't look at deformed leaves.
+
+[42:08] No, it's like growing spores. Okay. Hey Harold, I don't know whether I've talked to you about this, uh, but uh last I think I did briefly. The last time I did um the Sous Vide Low Temp class, I had a bunch of uh a big crew from South America. We had uh a couple from Brazil and um and you know did different countries, I forget where else did we have a anyway.
+
+[42:30] Uh but they said that there's a tradition down there of storing raw meat under oil. Have we talked about this? No. Yeah, you uh have you ever heard of this? I haven't, no.
+
+[42:42] Yeah. So raw meat uh just submerged under oil and any kind of oil? I guess. And then and then afterwards they cook it as a storage technique, as kind of a pre-refrigeration kind of storage technique. But I said, is it cured like uh Sesina, you know, like uh like Mexican salt beef?
+
+[43:00] Uh and they said, no, it's not cured. And then I mean maybe there was a language barrier. I said, Is it cooked? And they said no, it hasn't been like a you know, like uh like a Riet or a confit. And they said, No, it hasn't been cooked.
+
+[43:14] And I was like, Well, do you die when you eat it? And they said no. Uh but I mean, a couple of things I guess is that uh I mean, I don't know if they actually do salt before they put it under, but if you're gonna cook the the beejesus out of it, I mean you're gonna kill m most everything that's gonna grow in there is gonna be heat labile, right? And it should ferment anyway before anything else happens because it's such a high water content, it should ferment and get kind of lactic, which should also knock back the uh uh the botulism and all that crap, right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:50] But uh very interesting though, yeah. I've never never heard of that before. And uh and my other weird South American question for you is uh are you aware of the uh of the the traditional freeze dried uh Peruvian uh like Inca potatoes. Yes. Uh-huh.
+
+[44:11] Yeah. Uh you ever tried one? Remind me of the name Chunio Blanco. Uh yeah yeah. Yeah.
+
+[44:18] Uh well for those of you that aren't aware of it, uh I want any recipe that doesn't taste like a goat's uh a goat's private parts because this or how I imagine a goat's dirty private parts to to taste. It smells like a barnyard but like like hay that's been pooped on like goat. Anyway, uh could be sheep. I haven't been around a farm enough to really distinguish goat from sheep uh aroma alone. And the um uh the way they make this is they take potatoes, these special, I think somewhat bitter mountain potatoes, they let them freeze overnight, then they thaw.
+
+[44:55] I think they do that a couple times. Then they throw it in a sack in uh in a well for like 30, 40 days, then they pull it out and then they let it dehydrate a couple of times with a couple more freeze thaw cycles. And I was really excited to try them. You just boil them and then like put cheese over them and and eat them like that. But God were they horrible.
+
+[45:13] They've gotta be they've got to taste better. If people like them there has to be a way to cook it so that it's good. Only the Japanese fermented soybean natto is it's the only ingredient I've ever come across that I can't imagine uh being used to good effect somehow. But uh Oh no no no no I I had the greatest NATO just a few days ago, actually. Yeah?
+
+[45:33] Uh you you haven't had the the fresh stuff, right? I I need to bring that next time we get together because there there's now a company here in Northern California who's making it. Uh everything we get in this country essentially comes from Japan and it's frozen and it's weeks old and it's not that good. But there's somebody here now making it fresh, and it's it's really wonderful. Okay, so it doesn't taste like coffee grounds and garbage.
+
+[45:58] Uh it does not. No. No. All right. So I will uh I will rescind my judgment.
+
+[46:05] Um I've never had that particular version of Chuno. I have had a version that I think is not uh sort of anaerobically fermented like that. Um you know, it's just been essentially uh freeze freeze dried over you know several repeated cycles and left in the sun. And that's it it's got a you know, distinctive kind of flavor, a kind of old um, you know, uh veteran potato flavor, but it doesn't have the off flavors that you're describing. So maybe they're just different versions of tuneo that uh and sounds as though that that wasn't just tuneo, there was some kind of prefix on the front of that.
+
+[46:45] Uh well I think it was just like white white chunio. I think it was just chunoblanco or something like that. Uh okay. But uh sounds like we need a chunio expert, huh? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:55] I think there are other other versions of it. Yeah, it's hard to do hard to do the research on that uh on the webs. Just not that much information out there. All right, so let's sell Priscilla. Oh yeah.
+
+[47:07] Oh, she's she's right across the river. Maybe next time uh maybe next time you're you're in, we can see whether she can uh produce it for us in a way that's you know, good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[47:20] All right. Alright, so let's round out today with uh someone sent in a um uh Eddie Donnell sent in something from the daily, which is I guess a new iPad based news service, uh written um and I can't pronounce uh the person's name, so I'm not gonna mangle it. But it's called The Other White Meat and it's a story about uh Zymer's meats in Illinois uh and they're serving Lion and it's basically uh an expose on uh this company and the reason I guess it was sent to our blog is because uh y you know a year and a half ago or so we did a uh uh we did a piece on uh cooking exotic meats, right? So yak was uh delicious, um lion tastes like pork, beaver is delicious, um, you know, etc, etc. Raccoon we didn't like so much.
+
+[48:10] I didn't like bear, blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, uh so um basically uh this guy, uh Zimers, if you call him, like he says it's all legit, which is why we ordered from him, but uh further research has shown that he um basically served uh it sold endangered animals, illegal endangered animals, tigers as lions, uh, knowingly and went to jail for it. And he says that he just copped a plea because that's what his lawyers told him to do. But if you call him up uh and you talk to him, his attitude isn't I try to be extremely vigilant to make sure this doesn't happen and something slip through. His attitude is much more like, um, well I don't do a DNA test on the animal and you know I you know I don't I'm not I don't want to get into this other guy's business who's handing me the animal so if he says it's lying, it's lion.
+
+[49:04] Right? Uh and when you're dealing with um things that are right on the edge of what are gonna get you death threats from people on the telephone, like it pays to I think be a little more vigilant. Um but you know uh I don't know. And so I guess uh uh Eddie I was aware of uh of that which is why we don't order from that supplier anymore. We don't have a supplier actually right now of of uh those kinds of meat.
+
+[49:31] Lion does in fact taste like pork but it is uh it's hard it's hard to cook actually because it uh even though it has very little connective tissue in it, it's extremely tough and I don't know why, uh even at fairly fairly low temperatures. But uh maybe we can round this out with an ethical discussion of eating things like lion meat. Um I don't I mean I don't know how you feel about this Harold, but um if the animal is not endangered, I don't understand why any one living creature has more dignity than any other living creature. Um you know uh we have certain feelings for animals that you know have served us well, like horses and dogs over the millennia, but pigs have also served us well, are incredibly smart and we slaughter 'em by the by the bushel. You know what I mean?
+
+[50:14] Um so I don't know what do you uh you have any thoughts on this kind of moral ethical question or is too deep to bring in you weren't expecting to get put on the spot with this kind of thing or well no I would I I guess I would agree with you in general that uh the the animals we already eat are uh uh they they have a lot going for them too and so unless we're gonna sit back and kind of re examine uh things from uh from scratch uh as long as we're a meat eating culture and these animals are not endangered, um then I think it's it's fair to uh to taste them as long as they're not, you know, uh that they haven't been obtained in in um in shady ways. Right. Although you you bring up an interesting point, which is the animals get something out of it too. And there's the kind of classic argument that uh domestic animals that are raised for food have you know somehow entered a bargain with us, you know, where we take care of them, we provide them shelter and forage uh in something that is approximating uh approximating you know something that's good for their well-being, and in exchange we kill them early, uh but maybe not necessarily earlier than they would have died anyway in the wild. And this is the argument for uh wh one of the arguments for why factory farming is is horrible, other than taste, which is the argument, you know, taste and and humanity, which is uh you know, the ones I argue it usually in that order, uh but against factory farming versus uh old style farming.
+
+[51:43] But you know, maybe there's also something to that in people's reaction in that typically these lions haven't been stored in the best kind of uh uh situations, they're usually like penned up and they're kept for various crazy reasons by various crazy people, and then uh you know, afterwards are basically uh executed for their uh for their fur, and then the meat becomes a byproduct which we then use. So, you know, maybe there's something there, I don't know. Yeah, no, it it is complicated. If if the animals are are being kept and slaughtered uh for other reasons, um then you know it's kind of like the argument for uh for use for using all of the animal when you slaughter a a pig or a a lamb. Right.
+
+[52:28] Uh the if the meat's gonna go to waste otherwise, then why not put it to use? Why not nourish someone with it? Right, exactly. Exactly. And it to me, you know, once you accept the fact that we as a meat eating culture are allowed to kill the animal, then you know you've you've entered into you've entered into a zone where you're allowed to kill the animal to eat it.
+
+[52:48] Right? And so um, you know, uh I don't and like I say before, I don't see a lion as a as a more august entity, you know, from a from a um you know a brain standpoint than a uh than a than a pig. Just because we grew up admiring lions and not pigs, uh doesn't really change that in my book. But um anyway. Uh Harold, thank you so much for being on.
+
+[53:18] Do you have any last uh things uh you want other than we're gonna eat the heck out of some mangoes in a in about a month? No, I'm really looking forward to that. And and was very glad for this. I mean you you uh texted me what uh ten hours ago. Yeah.
+
+[53:34] Yeah. Uh and it was a lot of fun. Oh any time. Oh, really? Well, you shouldn't say that, because we'll take you up on it.
+
+[53:41] We love having you on the show. No, it was great. A lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you, Harold, and thanks for listening to Cooking Issues.
+
+[53:54] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[54:21] And I guess can't get it straight. Vicious Vicious. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. All of the trade papers are just buzzing with the information that Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook, has decided that he is only going to eat food that he himself has killed, as in proteins. So thus far he's um killed a goat, a pig, a chicken, and some fish.
+
+[54:52] But he's gonna start hunting, he says, so that he can, you know, basically be more mindful of what he is putting in his mouth and into his body. And um to quote a CNN Money article, he says, This year, my personal challenge is around being thankful for the food I have to eat. I think many people forget that a living being has to die for you to eat meat. So my goal revolves around not letting myself forget that and being thankful for what I have. This year I've basically become a vegetarian since the only meat I'm going to eat is from animals I've killed myself.
+
+[55:25] And thus far, this has been a good experience. I'm eating a lot healthier foods, and I've learned a lot more about sustainable farming and the raising of animals. This has been Behind the Scenes Food News with Katie Keefer. Here's a small clip. I will say that I tasted a lot of wines and I went to Bollinger.
+
+[55:59] And it was the special couvet, which is, and I'll explain the difference between that and Roter in a minute, but um the special couvet was the most three-dimensional wine that I'd had in my mouth up until that point, and it was actually pretty much one of the only ones of the day really spectacular. And it's made, I'll just say in a different style from Rotoru, because it it is a a set a certain portion of the blend every year, and their style is aged in barrels, and it gives it more of a toasty, fuller style. And it's a it's it's really you know, it's a big champagne. It's a masculine champagne. It is.
+
+[56:32] I I tried to get away stay away from that, but it's true. I mean James Bond, the whole thing. But it's a it's a it's a big wine, it's a great food wine. But then there was a lot of things. We'll tune in every Tuesday at 4 p.m.
+
+[56:44] live to Unfiltered, or check out the old episodes in our archives. Also make sure to subscribe to the podcast in iTunes. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area. And we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio. And we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Robert's in their studio because they talk to people who are serious about food. And that's what we are at Fairways.
+
+[0:23] We're serious about food. We we just care very deeply about you as a as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support Heritage Radio because it it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's that's we're kindred spirits.
+
+[0:52] If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're gonna find them on Heritage Radio, and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Market. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues in the studio today at Robertas with Nastasha De Hammer Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:34] How are you doing today, Nastasha? I'm okay. Yeah? Mm-hmm. So it next week, am I in the studio or am I in Los Angeles next week?
+
+[1:40] Assuming I can get this all straightened out. I think you're in Los Angeles. I'm not here at all. Where are you? You're off the planet?
+
+[1:47] You're on like the last space shuttle mission. Where are you where are you going? I told you already I'm going to Rhode Island. Rhode Island, yeah. Well, uh, it's kind of not here.
+
+[1:54] Anyway, we might be doing the show from uh Los Angeles next week. Uh I'm not sure. We'll keep you posted by a tweet. Call in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:10] Okay, so let's take uh some of the questions we got emailed. I got a question from Eric Zuwacky. Uh he says, I was sketching out an idea for a pork belly dish to replicate the feeling of being at a barbecue spot using the sense of smell. Uh thought of using one of the electric uh water pipes used for he says you know what, but it's for marijuana. It's like what they are is uh they're actually well, I'll finish the question.
+
+[2:31] Uh uh used for you know what, but instead of herbal medicine, i.e. marijuana, there would be applewood chips in the bowl, and then the smoke generator would be shot into an upside-down serving vessel, uh stemless wine glass, for instance, covering a dish so that when you open it at service, it would emit the smell of being in a place with a barbecue smoke pit. Alright, so what we're talking about here is uh back in the eighties, they developed these little miniature uh or 80s, yeah, 80s. They developed these little miniature electric vacuum cleaners that were powered with double-A batteries, and they were for geeks like myself. I own several, that uh so you could vacuum out your keyboards and and small parts and electronics and and crap like that.
+
+[3:07] So that and then some enterprise so there they were supposed to be vacuum machines, right? Vacuum cleaners, miniature. Uh, and some enterprising but extremely lazy pothead who couldn't take the trouble to inhale the smoke from their pipe because they were so they were so stoned that they couldn't lit literally could not inhale, uh, said, dude, I could put the batteries in this sucker backwards and it will run backwards, and instead of being a vacuum, it will uh suck the it will it will shoot smoke. And so what they did is they screwed a they burnt and screwed a bowl, you know, like a pot bowl, a little one, on the top of this vacuum cleaner, uh and then ran it backwards and shot marijuana smoke out of the out of the pipe, right? So that's where we were from, you know, I don't know, sometime in the 90s probably, up until the very early 2000s, uh, when a group of chefs started using them as smokers, right?
+
+[3:59] So the most famous uh chef that I know that uses it and used it fairly early was Juan Roca. I saw them do a presentation at Madrid Fusion, I believe in 2005 or 4 or something like that. Uh and they famously took these uh took these things and would uh do basically what you're saying, uh Eric, which is they would they would inject smoke under a cloche, under like you know, a serving dish, and then the dish would be completely obscured, and then when you lifted the the dish up, it would the smoke would go out, and you'd have this sensation of smoke and a really awesome visual effect and a really good kind of going from not seeing to seeing with the cloch only instead of being metal it being glass. So it's very famous presentation, works extremely well. I've seen it demonstrated a couple times.
+
+[4:41] I've never eaten it. Uh Harold McGee and Wiley have both had it and they said it was a good dish. Another thing that these guys did was they took a uh like a a little glass, almost like a uh looks like a gravy boat, but with a flat top, and they sealed plastic around it, uh and then they uh poked a little hole in it, and they put the smoke into that with a little with a little hole, and then every time your spoon hit the dish, it would uh put send up a little smoke ring. Uh that was also a really good presentation, really cool. Um and people also use it for smoking things, like you'd wrap something inside of let's say uh uh like a bowl or a Tammy with with uh plastic wrap, inject the smoke and let it sit.
+
+[5:19] Personally, I don't think that it has the same effect as actual smoking because the smoke is static, you're not constantly generating it, and after a while the smoke's gonna settle out. I just I don't think it's the same as actual smoking. The other problem is the the pothead uh vacuum cleaners are tend to be built not that well, but they're um and they tend to burn out and there's there's kind of problems with it melting and getting overly hot. Philip Preston at uh PolyScience makes one that's kind of more robo and built for cooking. I don't know what he called it, he calls it the smoking gun.
+
+[5:48] So he sells one that's kind of meant to stand up to kitchenware. The the one that I went to uh I don't know what what the kids call them nowadays, we call them a head shop, right? Where you go and you buy pot paraphernalia, you know, but you have to pretend that you're using it for tobacco, otherwise they won't sell it to you. If you say, I need something to use with marijuana, but I can't say that dude in the man, you know what I mean? But if you tell them that, you know, um I'm gonna smoke tobacco in this thing, uh, then they can sell it to you.
+
+[6:10] Anyways, so like um you go to those, you buy one, but don't expect those ones to last too long. They they leak and uh they they melt because they're you know, whatever, they're not they're not high quality, as my son would say. They're they're low qual low quality products. Uh anyway, so I I hope that helps. Um okay.
+
+[6:27] Uh Ryan Santos wrote in and he says he's looking for some guidance in cooking pork blade steaks sous-vide. They're crazy marbled fatty. I was thinking of trying more of a pork belly type approach than a pork chop steak kind of approach. Any insight would be appreciated. Well, I've never actually cooked uh so basically what the blade steak is.
+
+[6:45] I mean, if I'm right about this, which I assume I am, is it's basically a steak cut from the pork shoulder, not the picnic shoulder, but basically the front shoulder of the pig and has a little bit of the blade uh the you know blade bone in it. Um and I have cooked whole pork shoulder before, and it works quite well. Um, but you know, I've never cooked uh just a blade steak that way. Uh the the problem with any of these kinds of uh cooking when you're doing sous vide or low temperature for a long time is it contains lots of different muscles, and it's very hard to get all the muscles perfect at the same time because if there's a muscle that has less connective tissue in it, then that muscle is going to lose its texture and get kind of a little mushy by the time the rest of the muscles are gonna get uh are gonna get done. And you have that same problem with pork belly as well.
+
+[7:29] Uh now with pork shoulder, I don't think you're gonna have to go nearly as long as you would have to go for uh a pork belly, right? So pork shoulder, you know, you can test and see how you like it. I would choose a relatively low temperature, like between I mean it depends on how you like your pork, between 58 and 60 Celsius, which is you know 140 and below. Although the pork council still believes that you can cook pork to 160 degrees Fahrenheit and have it be juicy. Do you think that's even possible, Nastash?
+
+[7:56] Is that even it's not it's like physically impossible, right? Yes. I mean like in unless you slather it with some sort of external juice, it's not gonna have its its own juice. But anyway, so uh I would cook it between uh I would cook it between like 138 and 140 uh Fahrenheit, and you you know try cooking it for see whether or not 12 hours is enough actually, whether it's whether or if that's too chewy, then try it for a day, and if that's too chewy, try it for two. I would not go over two days.
+
+[8:25] Honestly, I would probably go for like 24 hours. I like a little texture in my meat, though. I don't want it like too kind of mushy, and I'm pretty sure that some of the muscles in that steak are gonna turn kind of fibry mushy. So there's there's a kind of when you overcook something low temperature, it doesn't have the same characteristics as overcooked uh meat in general. Overcooked low temperature meat doesn't go dry, right?
+
+[8:46] It goes, what I way I say is kind of like it just loses its texture and turns mushy. So what'll happen is when you bite into it, it all like it'll be uh the first bite will explode kind of with with juice, but then as you keep chewing, it'll taste almost like little fibers like a paste mush in your in your mouth. You've had it before, Nastash, it's an accurate description. And it and it and it turns to kind of like just you know, kind of paste in your mouth. Unplu to me, unpleasant.
+
+[9:12] Some people actually don't mind it, but to me it's like a it's a huge, it's a huge problem. So that's what overcooking means in low temperature kind of a sous-vide uh environment. Um but tell us how tell us how it works out because uh I'm interested. I've never I've never done it before. It looks like a very inexpensive cut of meat.
+
+[9:31] Another thing I would do is I would cook it in a vacuum. I wouldn't I would suck a kind of a medium kind of a vacuum one, I wouldn't go too hard. I would then take this thing, I would cook it all the way through to whatever tenderness you want, then I would let it cool down, a hundred percent cool down, and then put a righteous hard sear on it on the outside, because you'd want I think you want to um you want to basically have it taste kind of traditional, probably, have a look a real nice crust on the outside and be soft in the inside, I think would be the way to go. Also, some tests that we've run recently, uh don't salt the meat beforehand. Here this is kind of obvious, and I don't know why I never uh thought of it before.
+
+[10:08] But uh we we were running a bunch of tests where and typically when if I if I'm gonna do what's called direct serve where I'm gonna cook it and then serve it right after it's right after it's been cooked, I will salt the meat before I sear it and then put it in the bag and then cook it. Um problem is is that if you're storing the meat for a long time overnight or the next day, the meat's gonna get cured and it's gonna lose some of its juiciness, it's gonna get firmer like cured meat. Duh. So the basic rule is if you're going to keep something for a long time, uh the exception is braises that you're gonna cook for a long time, really braise the meat out, in which case you can salt it beforehand because it needs to be seasoned throughout. But if you're gonna take a piece of meat and serve it like a steak, you don't want to uh salt your meat before you serve it, all right?
+
+[10:51] Um and we'll talk about that in a minute, because apparently we have a caller. Caller, you were on the air. Hey Dave, how's everything going? Going all right. I'm glad to hear that.
+
+[10:59] I got a you know, a quick question. I saw, you know, I've been getting more into fish, and I saw that you had a little thing on ikajime, I believe it's called. Right. And it kind of really fascinated me, but I don't fully understand it. How could kind of destroy it seems like what you destroy the the spine and something it makes the fish taste better?
+
+[11:16] All right, are you uh are you do you fish? Uh I don't fish. I just you know, I'm just now getting into seafood a little bit more. All right. This is a very this is very glad you asked this question because I just shot something with uh Dave Chang last week on Ikojima.
+
+[11:30] I hadn't done ikajime work for a while, and then I just came back and uh did some just this week. So this is very, very good question. So um Ikajime is basically just the entire range of Japanese fish killing techniques. And um it there's a whole range of them, but they're uh they they basically accomplish two things. One, they are meant to bleed out the fish properly, right?
+
+[11:51] Because Japanese fish, they all about getting the blood out out of the fish. And the second aspect of it is um preserving or enhancing the texture of the fish based on how it's killed. Okay. So there's there's two there's there's the the spinal cord thing is one aspect of Ikijime called Shinke Nuki. So I'll just run you through all of the techniques.
+
+[12:11] So there's a technique that we haven't experimented with uh up until now, but it seems like a very good technique, and so I'm gonna do it from from now on. They make a little curved uh knife, right? And so the first thing you do is you take the live fish and you in you impale its head with this curved knife and you destroy the brain, right? And and so what that does, right? Normally what I would do instead of doing that is uh just sever the spine, okay, with a knife.
+
+[12:37] Uh uh up right under the gill flap, sever the spine. And what that'll do is disconnect the brain from the rest of the muscles so that the brain's no longer controlling the muscles. Two things though, one, it takes a uh you it takes a little bit to get the knife in there, and also it takes a lot of force to accurately break the uh spinal cord there, so you might miss, in which case you're gonna cause stress to the muscles. The fish has more of a chance to flop around because you're uh doing more adjustment while you're doing that, and so there's more chance that you're gonna drop the fish, which causes stress to the fish and to the muscles. So, my new theory, and also when you sever the spinal cord that way, the brain is still alive in the fish.
+
+[13:14] And so if you're gonna serve the head, there might be some detrimental effect on the on the uh taste of the head, although I don't know this, I haven't studied that. Uh but in general, I think just for humanitarian reasons and also for ease and speed of killing, which equals better flesh reasons. The best thing to do is to take this knife or an ice pick or whatever, go into the brain right you know above and behind the eye, and basically take its brain out, right? Now the brain's gone. Um then I would cut the spinal cord at the top and the bottom.
+
+[13:43] When you sever the spinal cord near the tail and near the front, what you're doing is first of all, cutting all of the uh you're cutting the connection from the brain to the spinal cords. Now the spinal cord is isolated from the from the brain, right? And that's good for reasons I'll tell you in a minute. But two, you're severing the blood vessels that run um down along the bottom of the spine, and what that allows you to do is really bleed this sucker out. So if you cut just in the front, that's the equivalent of what's called gill cutting, that's what we do kind of traditionally.
+
+[14:11] But if you cut in the front and the back, that basically the fish can pump the blood out of its body more efficiently. And eventually we're going to stick it in water, like salted ice water, and then it's going to pump out and pump clean water into its system, and you're going to get a really nice pure bled-out fish, which is what the Japanese really like. They don't like that that taste of what they would call the chiai line, which is that blood line that runs along like on a fish that you see the dark stripe in like a tuna. They would prefer like the like the lighter flavor of the thing that's been totally bled out, right? So that's the that's the basically the bleeding technique.
+
+[14:42] Now the the next technique, the further technique, is to then take a needle, thin needle, like a wire, and run it up the spinal cord, right? So not in the center of the spinal cord, but at the bottom of the spine is the are the blood vessels, and at the top of the spine are it is this is basically where the spinal cord is running. And it's a straight shot all the way up. And so you stick a needle through the spine and it basically wipes out the spine. And that's kind of the interesting technique that because we can kind of intuitively understand what's going on with all of those first steps, right?
+
+[15:13] With the bleeding, uh, and you know, it those all kind of make sense. It's it's this taking out the spinal cord with the needle is the thing that is kind of weird, and we don't we like why would you do that? The answer is is because the spinal cord, even though the brain is not sending messages to the spinal cord, the spinal cord has its own way of sending out messages to the muscles. There's things called central pattern generators that are in the spinal cord itself, telling the muscles to basically to swim, right? And they don't swim because they're no longer coordinated by the brain, but they're sending impulses to the muscles, causing those muscles to contract.
+
+[15:49] Then when the muscles are are are have these impulses going to them to contract, um, what happens is they lose their energy quicker. The ATP, which is the which is your energy source in fish muscles and your muscles and my muscles. So by depleting the ATP, right, as ATP is depleted and the energy stores in the muscles are depleted, that's what causes the muscles to go into rigor mortise. Because rigor mortise basically you know that you need energy to contract your muscles. You also need energy in the form of ATP to release your muscles.
+
+[16:19] So as you lose ATP in a dead muscle, they just ratchet tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter, and they can't unratch it, they can't open up. So the it turns out that the faster you go into rigor mortise, the faster you deplete your energy, the harder the rigor mortise is. And fish muscle is strong enough to do damage to itself with rigor mortise. So when it comes out of rigor mortise, right, if you haven't shoved the needle up the spine, then your fish turns softer. It's less firm, right?
+
+[16:48] So when you put the needle in the spine, what you're doing is preserving the texture of the fish. You're going to get less gaping in the in the in the muscles, less dripping, less weeping, uh, and it's just firmer. The weird thing about ecogimi, and some Western chefs kind of can't wrap their heads around it, is that it takes longer for the fish to be in prime uh prime condition after you do ikijime. Right when you do ekajimia, if you eat any fresh fish that was just killed, it's uh it's gonna taste kind of almost crunchy, you know, almost like crunchy like uh like giant clam sushi, kind of crunchy, right? Uh and then um, or like you know, geoduck or gooey duck rather, a clam, that kind of crunchy.
+
+[17:22] And then it you have to let it age. And a western fish, one that hasn't done had the needle up the spine, is going to come out of rigor faster. And so for a small window, you might prefer it. But when you taste it, you can tell that uh that it has kind of a mushiness that's come from the this hard rigor that isn't in the fish that has had the needle gone up the spine. This is especially true of fish that ha do a lot of swimming, hard swimming.
+
+[17:48] So like stripers, tunas, uh, you know, uh any any kind of bass, any hard swimming thing, but also things like fluke, you can make a difference. There's some evidence I haven't tested. Every fish that I've tested tastes better with uh with the needle up the spine. But um there's some evidence that certain fish like place, for instance, don't uh benefit from the from the spine, but I haven't I have never tested a fish that didn't benefit. And I've tested blackfish, stripers, hybrid bass, um uh what else?
+
+[18:18] Uh fluke, uh a bunch. You know what I mean? And so I've never had a fish that didn't benefit. Is this making more sense now? We still is he off the air.
+
+[18:30] Did I talk him off the air? I think I talked him off. I took like ATT cut his cut his phone off by the time I I got anyway. So um there like the benefit is huge. The problem is is that it's big caller.
+
+[18:42] Well new caller. Oh, we have a new collar, okay. Well, maybe I'll talk more about Ike Jimmy in a minute because it's a fascinating subject. But we have a new caller, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave.
+
+[18:51] This is Andy from Chicago. Hey, how you doing? Good. How are you guys today? I'm doing well, doing well.
+
+[18:55] I didn't get down to Chicago this year for the NRA. I missed it. How was it? Did you go to the I did not go? I'm not in the industry myself, so I I missed it.
+
+[19:03] I I heard it was pretty big though. Yeah, I love going to Chicago because I really like uh I really like eating in Chicago. It's a great eating town, so and I like walking around in Chicago, so I'm sorry I missed it. Anyway, yeah, great town. I'm I'm actually really excited.
+
+[19:14] I got reservations to a Linia in August, so I'm pretty pumped about that. Oh, great restaurant. You ever been there before? I haven't. It'll be my first time.
+
+[19:21] But uh, you know, Grant's been getting all that press recently, and uh I saw it on Bizarre Food recently too, so pretty excited. Yeah, been reading a lot about it. Yeah, get get get ready because like if you get the full tasting and the and the wine, you're there for hours and they're gonna roll you out in a barrel. You know what I mean? You're gonna be like I'm yeah.
+
+[19:38] Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. We're we're doing all you know, the full shebang, so you have an early reservation? Uh I think it might be like a 6 30 or something like that. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah, no, uh well, I I once did that thing at like 9 30 at night uh and had the full tasting, and the entire kitchen wanted to Ikajima me stick a knife in my head because they we weren't out of there until like 2 30 in the morning, anyway.
+
+[20:05] Wow, wow. Yeah, we're we're definitely on the earlier side, so but uh I think I might have to take the day off from the next day. Yeah, recover. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[20:14] Yeah. So what's your question? Uh my question about curing salts. I'm doing uh prosciutto style ham in my attic right now, and uh when I got the ham last December, I went over to the spice house in Chicago, which is a great spice house. They only had one type of curing salt.
+
+[20:28] I forget which it was, but uh the guy there said that the other kind, which is essentially saltpeter, was illegal to sell in the United States, which I didn't think was true. But uh, you know, so I got the I got the one he had, and uh, you know, I've just I'm just wondering what what's the difference between the nitrate and the nitrite? Which one is saltpeter and and why would he have claimed it was illegal in the United States or some somehow not able to be sold? Uh yeah, well he's wrong kind of on both counts. You uh are lucky to live near a place called Butcher Packer.
+
+[21:01] If you're going to get stuff for curing, you should deal with the guys at Butcher Packer. Uh they're really good, and they will sell to you, not just to uh kind of industry types, and they have all the all the different things. There's there's two there's a bunch of different things you can buy right the two curing salts that they're sold are either called instacure one or instacure two or Prague Powder one or Prague Powder 2 and there's another thing you can buy called Morton's tender quick right most of them the instacure one and the Prague one and the and the tender quick have as their base sodium nitrite right um saltpeter like is an old form that of nitrates that can be used but you know sodium nitrate right is not the same as like what they would say is saltpeter straight saltpeter sodium nitrate is not illegal right the the fact of the matter is you're only supposed to use nitrate right on things like country hams or like prosciutto if well you know in Italy they don't use nitrates at all in in the in the in the prosciutto you know uh prosciutto department things like that but um in an American country ham and there are some American country ham people that don't use nitrates either right but the the deal is that n think of nitrate right which is like the instacure two right think of nit think of nitrate as kind of time release nitrite because what happens is is that you rub the cure into the surface of the meat and the nitrite right gets used up fairly quickly as it goes through turns to NO does its curing thing right the nitrate converts to nitrite right the nitrate then takes longer to convert to nitrite which then converts to you know the NO which does it which does its thing. So nitrates are long acting nitrites. And and they're only used on whole muscle cut, long cured items like country ham.
+
+[22:58] Right. So you never use a nitrate on like a bacon or on anything like that because those are usually pumped or even if they're not pumped, they don't need to cure that long. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
+
+[23:09] So if I went with the the sort of more quick release version, uh you know, uh obviously there I would I would imagine there's slightly more risk of you know botulism or something like that, but you know, as long as the rest of it's done properly and cured properly it should be okay, right? Well you're you're they're not really gonna get um you know watch someone's gonna come and say that I'm wrong. But you're not really gonna get botulism in something like a a ham. You're gonna get you're gonna get botulism in something like a sausage or like a sausage where it's mixed together. First of all, like hams are sufficiently dried and sufficiently salted supposedly to get rid of any risk of botulism right.
+
+[23:49] The nitr the nitrites uh in the uh the nitrates in the nitrites do a couple of things. They ensure that you're gonna get that cured color right that cured color will come just from long aging right which is why you don't need it for prosciutta de parma or for American country hams if you age it long enough. But if you have a shorter aged ham, if you've ever seen a a shorter aged ham when you cut it the parts of the area will be kind of gray and they were undercured, right? Uh and so you can you can see that that kind of thing happening but you're still not going to get botulism because the inside of the meat unless you hit it with a knife is relatively sterile, right? Yep and plus you know the whole thing are so heavily salted and you know it should be okay.
+
+[24:28] If it's done right, yeah. So it's it's if it's in your attic, right, the ham, then uh assuming that your attic is not really uh air conditioned, right, during the summer, if it gets hot, does it get hot? It gets I mean, we have an AC, but it still stays relatively warm up there. Like what? Like, you know, probably eighty, something like that.
+
+[24:49] Okay. So you're getting close to American country ham temperatures. I mean, one of the primary differences between uh prosciutto and uh, you know, Italian style prosciutto and an American style right is the temperature and the humidity. So an American ham is gonna be done in a f in a fairly high humidity, fairly high temperature environment. Think Virginia in the summertime.
+
+[25:09] Right. You know what I mean? Or or think and and by the way, just because you don't smoke it doesn't mean that it's not an American style because many American hams are not smoked, right? Uh you know, plenty of them. Uh so you know, that's kind of just a a choice that that that people make.
+
+[25:24] How old is it right now? Uh right now it's about six months, six and uh seven months, something right around there. I got it in late December and it started hanging in in like early January basically. Nice. Is it hanging upside down or is the hock pointed down or is the hot pointed up?
+
+[25:39] No, it's hock up in a prosciutto style. And I I weighted it as I salted it so it's got that nice flat, you know, prosciutto uh look to it, but it's uh yeah, hawk up. Right. You might want to um lard over the face of the meat at this point. Done.
+
+[25:54] Uh okay. How long ago do you do that? I did it pretty early on actually. Right. I mean you want to let some of the moisture come out of it beforehand, but then when you lard over the face, um you're now you're stopping a lot of the moisture from leaving on that side.
+
+[26:09] And that's one of the things that Americans don't do that I wish they did do because the face side of the meat gets too dry. Um but uh but you didn't debone it yet though, right? Bone's still in? No, bone's still in, yeah. Alright, cool.
+
+[26:21] Um yeah, so you how long you you're gonna hang it, like a year or longer? I'm thinking like a year, yeah. I'll probably dig into you know, I might try it in in December, maybe maybe January. I actually did a did another one before the just like a month before this one that uh was skin off and uh you know, more like a twelve pound like bone or uh I don't know, femur end ham, you know that I got from a guy. So that one's gonna cure more like six or eight months, I think.
+
+[26:47] Uh I larded over that one too, because there was basically, you know, no skin on it. Some fat still, but I put a nice coating of lard over that one. So that one I'll probably break into in the next month or so. But this one I'm gonna wait till at least two thousand twelve. Right, yeah.
+
+[26:59] And you know the ice pick trick, right? Shove an ice pick into it to smell it, see how you're doing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the you know, cured aroma, that's kind of you know, obviously it takes practice, but uh I'm just looking for a cured hammy hammy aroma, right? Yeah, and you can search also to make sure that you don't have like a taint along the bone line or anything like that.
+
+[27:17] By the way, I've had many hams that have like a taint, like a little bit of like a an uncured part that along the bone and it doesn't affect the rest of your ham. Sure you already know this if you've already uh if you already done this. Uh uh by the way, a good place to look uh for a country ham curing, there's a guy named Norman Marriott who's a uh who's ex uh he's emeritus at uh I think Virginia Tech and he has a good online PDF on ham curing uh in a bag in case you want to try like total American style some point, bag curing, which is actually kind of uh kind of interesting. Maybe do an American style for your next one. Definitely.
+
+[27:52] How much did this guy weigh before you cured him, the big one? It was right about 25 pounds, I believe. Yeah. Nice. Twenty five pounds.
+
+[27:58] Nice. And not good it was a good one. It was a good uh good butcher from Central Illinois, he supplies a lot of the local Chicago restaurants. Uh and uh the other one is the other one I got was from this great Amish farmer in central Indiana where I spent a lot of time. Uh real, you know, purely pastured, uh real real natural pork.
+
+[28:16] So I'm excited for both of them. They should be pretty tasty. Nice. Sounds sounds like it's gonna be delicious. I certainly hope so.
+
+[28:21] I'm I'm waiting for ready for it, man. I want it to be I want it to be 2012 right now. Yeah, wait waiting's the hard part. That's why you gotta keep making them so you never have to wait to have your next one. Yeah.
+
+[28:30] Yeah. Next December, once the temperatures drop a little bit, I'm I'm definitely getting on another one. So beautiful. All right. Well, thanks for calling.
+
+[28:39] You have like a favorite country ham, you know, maker who you buy from regularly, or who who would you recommend if I were to get one? If I were to buy an American country ham, you think would be a good place to start. Alright, well, there's a there's a couple of really good ones. The problem is you gotta make sure you get the good ones from them, which means you can't you have to call physically call and ask like how the particular ham is. So that though like my go-to hams are I like uh S.
+
+[29:00] Wallace Edwards, right? He has one he has one that's now called a Suriano, which I I don't enjoy the name because I hate like pretending that it's like some sort of uh Spanish thing. But he is currently making those things with Patrick here from Heritage Food, his Heritage Pork. They're unbelievably marbled and they're they're very well made. I really like those.
+
+[29:17] They're kind of smoked in a Virginia Tidewater style. And I think he puts pepper on I think they smoke even the Seriano ones, but they're delicious. He might make an unsmoked one. I really like uh Nancy Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's over in Kentucky. Uh, you know, their recipe goes back a long way.
+
+[29:31] I've heard that she's now experimenting with uh with some heritage pork. In fact, I tasted some. It's delicious. Her ham is hung in an area that has kind of like a lot of like funky molds. It's kind of like she's near a swamp, and her hams have a very faint wisp of kind of like a blue cheese note that I really really enjoy.
+
+[29:51] But yet you have to call her. She only cures once a year in the in the in the in the wintertime. And uh she sells this stuff out, so you gotta make sure sometimes she has some older ones that are held over from last year. You can call her and she will hold them for you. Uh she's great.
+
+[30:05] Uh I like uh Alan Benton makes uh some good hams. I haven't had his in a while, Benton's Country Ham. Um closer to you. Burgers Smokehouse makes uh uh like of some commodity hams, right? But they also make a like kind of a their heritage ham, which is 12 months old.
+
+[30:22] I believe it's called like attic age, but you have to call because they make some hams for Walmart, you know what I mean? And then they make and then they make some that are you know that are real that are old. Yeah, real. So it's all about kind of it's all about with with these with these companies like calling them up and and just talking with them on the phone and making sure that you're getting because they think that you don't want it, you know what I mean? Like they think that you want a four-month-old commodity ham.
+
+[30:47] And because that's what people have been asking for, because people have been searching for based on price, and they've been they want a kind of a less salty taste, and you're like, listen, I want you know, I want funky old, salty, yeah. Yeah. So burgers one's not super funky and it's not smoked, uh, their attic one. It's it's a milder kind of a ham. I think the the S.
+
+[31:06] Wallace Edwards depends on which kind of aging room he's in, but this new marble stuff is great. Uh Nancy Mahaffey stuff, really good. Alan Benton stuff. I don't know if Alan Benton is currently doing anything with uh new like the the heritage breeds. The interesting the problem with American country hams isn't that we don't have the technical expertise to make the stuff because we do.
+
+[31:24] It's that um it's that our pork quality had been lacking for many years in terms of uh marbling and also the older you the older an animal is when it's slaughtered, and the higher the slaughter weight of the animal, depending on the genetics, obviously, but for a given animal. The enzyme uh characteristics of the meat change as the animal ages, and they change more favorably towards making country ham. So the older the meat is that's slaughtered, not only the more flavorful will it be, but the better it will age. So, you know, these older, bigger hams not only age better because they're physically larger and they tend to physically have more fat, which protects them so they can age more, but also uh their enzyme makeup and their initial flavor uh profile is better. And so as we start realizing this, and as like some of the top-notch American country ham producers start buying better pork, I think you're gonna see us competing with some of the top uh European people kind of more head-to-head.
+
+[32:19] I mean, I I like it anyway. I prefer American country ham's taste profile because it's aged at a higher tent. But you know, like that that's kind of the last step we need to get to. Is it oh, also Finchville Farms, another really good one. They're in Kentucky.
+
+[32:31] So they're really good. Finchville Farms. Yeah. And Finchville Farms is interesting. They also uh, you know, basically I think they cure like one one one or two times a year.
+
+[32:41] They do a natural kind of cure. They're also nitrate-free, as is new uh newsomes, right? So you should taste those two side by side, because one's smoked and one's not, and they're both Kentucky, but they're aged in very different environments in Kentucky. Uh they make they make a really good they make a really good product as well. Cool.
+
+[32:59] I'm excited, man. Yeah, I do want to buy one of the little comparisons. Yeah. Thanks for all the info, Dave. No problem.
+
+[33:06] Remember though, to call those guys before you buy it, so you know you're getting the right one. Yeah. All right, cool. Yep. All right, thanks a lot.
+
+[33:12] So let's go to our first commercial break. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 4997. 7184972128. When I look out into your faces, you know what I see?
+
+[33:21] I see a little bit of ailbows in each and every one of you out there. Let me tell you. Oh man, what I want to say. Elvis is everywhere, man! He's in everything.
+
+[33:50] He's in everybody. Elvis is in your jeans. He's in your cheeseburgers. Elvis is in nutty buddies. Elvis is in your mom.
+
+[34:02] He's in everybody. He's in the young, the old, the bat, the skinny, the white, the black, the brown, and the blue people got Elvis in them, too. Elvis is in everybody out there. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Greenhorn Radio, hosted by Seven Von Scharner Fleming every Thursday at 2 p.m.
+
+[34:25] Greenhorn Radio is radio for young farmers by young farmers. Michael James. Helmed by acclaimed activist, farmer, and documentarian Severin Fleming. Greenhorn Radio is a weekly phone interview session surveying America's cutting edge under 40 farmers. Again, that's every Thursday at 2 p.m.
+
+[34:41] on the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So how cool is that?
+
+[34:55] We got a call in that that we uh let us uh pump not only Heritage Meats, but also one of our sponsors, that's Wells Edwards. That's great. Yeah, nice. Advertising him. Yeah, and and uh I also happen to believe in those products.
+
+[35:08] Thank God. So, you know, it's a it's a problem. Remember the time we had a sponsorship. We don't read sponsorships. Yeah, the reason like other shows, like people will read sponsorship, uh the sponsorships, you know, they but Jack, our intrepid engineer, has to record ours ahead of time because no one ever knows what the hell I'm gonna say about a particular sponsor because if I think that the thing is crap, or if I don't understand why what it's you know, selling provision is I find it difficult to kind of sell it, right?
+
+[35:39] You're not the only one. I do it across the board now. Really? Because there was a bunch of us like that? Yeah, you know.
+
+[35:44] Yeah. But play it safe. Yeah, but S. Wells Edwards and you know, our parent Heritage Foods USA are two things I can I can kind of stand behind without uh qualification. Anyway.
+
+[35:54] Um where were we talking about before? Talking about Ike J May? Mm-hmm. All right. What was I saying?
+
+[36:00] Do you remember? I don't. You were explaining the entire process. And then you were talking about the Chang thing. Yeah.
+
+[36:05] So oh my god. So I don't know how much I'm allowed to say. You know, Chang has this new TV show. Uh it's but it's not a TV show. It's uh it's an iPad application, and you you get to watch a little bit of it for free, and then you have to buy the rest of it, and it's being done by uh Anthony Bourdain's um production company, which uh you know, anyway, so uh he had me in to do uh this segment.
+
+[36:27] So I don't know how much I'm allowed to say about it because you know you're gonna have to see the iPad and stuff, but I'll say this. Before this week, I had never had real like line line caught right on the boat striped bass that had been done Ikajime with the spike through the head and with the with the needle through the spine. And we did them this time. They were huge. They were like, you know, 40 inches, um and they were caught right off right off Montauk, right on a boat, eKG made right on the boat.
+
+[36:56] We had Western style, which means Montauk style. So Montauk style is you'll you'll gill you'll cut the gill so it bleeds to death and then throw it directly onto ice and let it bleed out, right? So that's one step above just taking the fish and throwing it into uh into your ice well and letting it die by asphyxiation, which is how a lot of people do it. Because a lot of people they think that it's kind of barbaric to do all these things to the fish when you get them out, like cut their gills and stuff. But what it really is is they just don't have the cojones to dispatch the fish when it comes when they take it out of the water, and they'd rather have the thing suffocate to death in um you know in a box where they can't see it.
+
+[37:33] You know what I mean? Which to me, so in other words, like all of these things where you know you people say you're doing something kind of inhumane by you know sticking a knife in its head and then cutting uh the spine at the gills and cutting the spine at the tail. First of all, like these things are done to kill the fish as quickly as possible, right? Which is the most humane thing to do instead of letting it suffocate, right? Uh secondly, if you are going to kill, and this is you know something I you know, I said when we were shooting, I believe, is if you were going to kill an animal to eat it, right?
+
+[38:03] You are obligated to one try to reduce its suffering as much as possible while you're while you're killing it, which has the added benefit that it makes it taste better. The killing an animal in uh a way that is um the least trauma to the animal makes the best tasting animal. Um so you're obligated to be as humane as possible, and you're also obligated to make the animal taste as good as you possibly can, right? I mean, don't you think if you're gonna kill something, it's you should at least taste it. That's why like I tell my kids, you know, don't waste meat.
+
+[38:40] My kids are like, uh, Daddy, I have to eat this meat. I'm like, yes, because a cow died for it. I'm like, yes. You know what I mean? It's like you you shouldn't really waste the stuff, and you should you shouldn't really uh you should treat it well, you shouldn't overcook it.
+
+[38:52] You should you know you're obligated not to overcook it, you're obligated not to mess it up, you're obligated not to uh, you know, I think waste a lot when you when you when you eat this. So anyway, so these these techniques, which some people find kind of barbaric. In fact, my stepfather, who's a surf caster, he's in the Cape right now. He caught the biggest monster fish I've ever seen someone catch surf casting uh for stripers in the Cape. The thing was I don't know how the hell long it was.
+
+[39:18] It was like like 46, 48 inches, it's crazy, it was over four feet long, I think. It was huge. Anyways, so he didn't he didn't uh ek me it. One because I haven't shown him how, but he's like, My fish don't like things shoved up their butts. I'm like, listen, you know, if you're killing it anyway, you might as well have it be perfect by shoving it.
+
+[39:36] It's not up your it's not up the butt anyway. Anyway, uh, you know, so even though it looks weird, he's afraid to do it because he thinks the other surf casters are gonna think that he's a lunatic and gonna try and and come over and like you know, get mad at him for torturing the fish, but in fact you're doing the fish a favor by killing it quickly, and then you're doing yourself a favor and honoring the fish by having the flesh be as perfect as it can be. So we tasted these different ones, and the Western style fish was definitely not as good as uh you know the Montauk style, all props to Montauk, but Montauk's in Long Island for anyone listening who doesn't know the kind of this coast. Um and it's at the tip, it's where Jaws was, you know, supposedly from. But they have lots of fishing boats off Montauk.
+
+[40:14] It's beautiful. Anyway, uh so it you're doing good honor to the fish by do doing it that way. The one oh I know what I was talking about also. Western chefs need to kind of get their wrap their heads around the fact that the freshest fish isn't necessarily the best fish. So there's a Chinese technique where they prize freshness above all else.
+
+[40:34] And Nastasha and I saw a demonstration of this once where you literally wrap the f uh live fish's head in towels and then uh cut the muscles of the fish so it can't move anymore and then deep fry the body while the head's still alive. Now I don't practice this, so to please don't write in or call in. Because remember that demo we saw? Yeah. Remember, I guess on the phone the whole time, like planning a party in in Chinese.
+
+[40:57] Remember? I don't remember that aspect of it. Um but uh I do remember the demonstration. Uh I did taste it. Uh I don't think that I don't think it really like the idea is that it's supposed to be the life of the fish is still there, and so you're supposed to like it's that's promote freshness or whatever.
+
+[41:13] I don't think that it benefits uh the the fish really from a taste standpoint. So now now, like a huge chunk of like uh you know Chinese, you know, culturally Chinese people are gonna get mad at me for this, but I don't think it's and it's kind of like it's kind of it's it's kind of horrible. Well, you know, it's virtuoso technique, you know, but I think it's kind of horrible thing to do. I wouldn't advocate doing it. What about you?
+
+[41:35] You felt bad. You didn't want to I don't think I ate it. You didn't eat it? I don't think so. I ate it, but it you know, it's like that's a bizarre technique.
+
+[41:42] So anyway, so like there's a there's a whole section of people uh you know i uh around the world who believe that the freshest fish is the best fish, and so preferably with the head still alive while you're eating the body, which that's just perverse, right? Like if it tasted really great, I would say, well, I don't know, maybe, but I don't really think it tastes that that I don't think it was that good either. But anyway, um but the fact of the matter is that you really most of the time want to wait for the fish to go through rigor mortis before you eat it. So f the freshest fish isn't necessarily the best fish. It's the fish that is at the right time.
+
+[42:14] Now it is true that once fish reaches its peak, it doesn't stay in peak condition very long. So once it reaches its peak, you want to eat it very quickly. But it's like it the fact of the matter is is that peak isn't the moment it's killed. You know, tuna, it takes days for it to really come out of rigor and have it be have it be perfect again. And so you you know you want to really um it's not every fish the moment it's caught it's every fish at its proper time.
+
+[42:42] One thing that they they were looking for bluefish you eat blue fish Nastasha I love blue fish. Bluefish I've loved it for a long time starting to get popular a lot of people don't like it because it's an oily fish. They're real strong swimmers, real mean suckers they s they and they form huge schools and they go up uh a lot of times close to the beach and like uh my stepfather has seen it where people have been in the water and like a school of blues will come through and they'll just take a bite right out of like a a swimmer's leg because they're vicious suckers and they got like sharp sharp teeth. In fact if you're fishing for blues they use uh a lot of times metal uh leaders on them because they'll cut through their teeth will cut through other stuff and blues will they're monsters will eat anything um but delicious I want to try uh Ikijime on a blue fish because they're strong right so I think that they would really benefit from it and they're one of those fish that you need to eat relatively quickly people really say you need to eat it quickly because the flesh deteriorates so I'm wondering whether we can improve the quality of it by doing Ikojimi on a blue fish. And I'm especially interested because that is a fish that the Japanese guys don't eat right so they don't really understand the bluefish.
+
+[43:44] It's not a it's not something that they eat, as far as I know. So my goal for the summer, and if anyone's you know hearing this, buy Dave Chanck's uh iPad app when it comes out. See the Ikojime section on it because there's enough footage in that thing for you to learn how to do it from watching it. And so you can learn Ikajime from that and then go Ikajime some blue fish and uh tell me how it tell me how it turns out. So uh I may be in Los Angeles next week.
+
+[44:11] I may not, because even though it's next week and we're shooting this pilot for am I to s am I to say anything? I don't think so. I don't think you are. No? It's about history and and cooking.
+
+[44:23] Uh and I am going to like if it all works out, because even though it's only a week away, uh for some reason because it's me and I'm completely disorganized, we don't have the negotiations done yet, so I have no idea what's going on. But um if if uh if I do it, I'm gonna be a judge. Can you believe that? Me as a judge. How do you think that's gonna work out, Nastasha?
+
+[44:43] You're you're too nice. Yeah, but they should get they should get you to be it, because you'd sit there and just give them the death stare the whole time. Oh, I'm honest. And then just shake your head. You're honest?
+
+[44:52] Mm-hmm. That's what that is, honesty. Anyway, uh so hopefully I will be here. If not, I'll be coming to you from Los Angeles. This has been Cooking Issues.
+
+[45:02] Have a good week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information.
+
+[45:33] Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And the guests can't get it straight. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. The USDA has introduced the My Plate icon.
+
+[45:54] I'm sure you've all seen that in the news, replacing the food pyramid that was in use for 19 years. This colorful icon contains portions of fruits, vegetables, grains, protein, and a little side dish of dairy. It can be viewed at www.choosmyplate.gov. It does look like a plate. It's divided into four quadrants.
+
+[46:15] They are surprisingly similarly sized. Vegetables, fruits, proteins, grains. The veg are definitely a little bit larger than the other groups, but protein was really big. I was surprised. I thought we were supposed to eat less meat.
+
+[46:30] Each component of the plate can be clicked on for a drop-down menu that explains portion size, healthy choices, nutritional information, etc. It offers significantly more information to consumers, but it is a little bit more complicated to use. We'll see if people actually look at it. This has been Behind the Scenes Food News with Katie Kiefer. Did you know we have a show entirely about cheese?
+
+[46:55] Take a listen. Well, I know this is a it's horrible to do visual things on the radio, but if you were all sitting in the studio, you would see this wheel from from late May is quite pale in color. It's uh um it's a little bit, yeah, like a milkier, um uh sort of a very soft yellow. And then the the wheel from late June is quite golden and intense looking. It's a really deep, deep yellow.
+
+[47:19] Um, what causes that that difference? Well, I'm quite sure it's the grass. Yeah, it's the keratin and the grass, and um that's giving it that yellow color, not fat. Um, but definitely coming from from the pasture. Um our animals are fed hay through the winter now.
+
+[47:39] We we don't use fermented feed because that won't work with our cheese. But um so they're essentially grass-fred year-round with grain salt. If you like what you hear, cutting the curd airs every Monday at 4 30 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast or check it out in our archives.
+
+[48:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio. And we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's and their studio because they talk to people who are are serious about food, and that's what we are at Fairway, is we're serious about food. We we just care very deeply about you as a as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain, and and that's why we love to support Heritage Radio, because it it it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it, and that's that's we're kindred spirits.
+
+[48:51] If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're gonna find them on Heritage Radio, and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark. The following is a message from HeritageFoodsUSA.com. The difference between wild Alaskan salmon and farmed Atlantic salmon is just as great as the differences between commodity pork and heritage breed pork.
+
+[49:30] Huge. HeritageFoodsUSA.com is lining up a major social pie of sustainably harvested salmon in July and offering it at a phenomenal price to consumers. Check out HeritageFoodsUSA.com for more details on how to get in on this opportunity. Experience salmon the way it should be.
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area. And we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio. And we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's and their studio because they talk to people who are are serious about food. And that's what we are at Fairways.
+
+[0:23] We're serious about food. We we just care very deeply about you as a as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support Heritage Radio because it it it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's that's we're kindred spirits.
+
+[0:52] If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're gonna find them on Heritage Radio, and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Market. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:35] Call in all of your questions, cooking or non cooking or technical related, to 718497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Sadly, I am not joined in the studio today by Nastasha De Hammer Lopez because she is on vacation in Rhode Island up at uh Watch Hill, but she is calling in, so I think we have her. Nastash, you there? Yeah, hi.
+
+[1:55] Now how's Rhode Island? Did you say sadly? Did you you say sadly are not in there in the studio? Yeah, sadly. Sadly is that bad.
+
+[1:59] Oh, thank you. So uh how's uh how's Rhode Island up there? Um the beach is beautiful. Have you had I know you've seen I know you've seen every beach. Yeah, well, I've well I've seen and try to avoid most beaches.
+
+[2:17] My you know, my wife likes me to go to beaches all the time, but I'm first of all so white that everyone thinks there's a second sun on the beach, even though I'm completely clothed uh head to toe whenever I go to one. I also detest sand. Although I do like foraging for things on the beach. In fact, that's one of my favorite things to do. So that's the basically the only way you can get me to do anything, is if I'm gonna forage for food.
+
+[2:40] I remember when I was a kid, I used to we used to go to the Cape all the time, and I used to basically all I would do is go around looking for cawhogs and uh clams and mussels, depending on on where I was, because uh that's basically all I like about being outside is finding food. What about you? You used a there's a foraging session at four o'clock. So I'm gonna do that. You're gonna do it where what are you gonna what are you gonna forage for?
+
+[3:01] For plants or for animals? So a lot of good foraging to be done on the shores as well as in the water close to the beach. Uh I've never done it in Rhode Island, though. I mean, I've done a lot in Maine. They the famous uh, you know, dead for a long time, but famous wild food writer, maybe the first big famous one here in in this in the uh US, Yule Gibbons, wrote a specifically small manual for New England seacoast foraging, but it's more for Maine.
+
+[3:32] But there's just a wealth of things you can eat on the on the beach from uh like Oric, which is like Lamb's Quarters, which is great for a salad, or a version of sea beans or like wild sea rocket, which is a like a like wild rocket like arugula, but m uh more succulent and like crunchy and also a little more bitter like mustardy green, but the stuff just grows wild along the along the beach, you know, it's crazy. And and depending on I think it's a little early, but like beach plums, you know, you mean there's just fantastic amounts of things you can forage along the beach, and I think one of the reasons is because a lot of it you're not allowed to kind of mess with anymore from you know, from a development standpoint. So if you're in a place that's not built up, it's probably got a lot of that good stuff just lying around, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[4:18] Oh, I forgot to give you your service berries yesterday. Oh, I know. Nastasha's uh buddies went and um foraged in Brooklyn apparently you said for uh service berries, aka uh there's a million different names from shad berries and whatnot. Uh I've never actually had 'em. Were they good?
+
+[4:35] Uh they were okay. I mean, it's it's exactly what they said. It was a like blueberry texture with a raspberry uh taste. We made a pie and it was disgusting. Why was the why was the pie disgusting?
+
+[4:47] I messed up the crust and then the crust infiltrated the berry filling and it was just what? What did you what c what did you do for the crust? What did you let's let's analyze this. This will be our first problem on cooking issues. What did you do for the crust?
+
+[5:00] I used Cristo. What? Well, it was Pat's mom's recipe, and he was like, Mom makes this, you need to make it like this. And I was like, All right, so it was two cups of flour, three quarter cup of Crisco, and cold water and salt, and that was it. Right, and what happened?
+
+[5:20] It it wouldn't roll, and when I picked it up, it would crumble apart, so I made a second one, and then that one wouldn't roll. So then instead I took the ball and I put the ball in the center of the pie uh pie tin. And then I spread the ball out with my fingers so that it made a sort of crust around it. And then he insisted that there be a top crust. And so I rolled out a top crust and then carefully placed it on top, but it was all crumbly and gross.
+
+[5:46] And then yeah, and then that crust broke into the filling and as it was cooking. Well, it's hard. Yeah, you didn't you didn't use enough water. Everyone's petrified about using uh the too much water, and so they make a they make a one that's not bound. If you use uh I don't I can't really in my head calculate, you know, cut measures of uh of uh flour to um to Crisco.
+
+[6:10] Um but the uh you know you if you use enough of fat, right, and you incorporate it uh correctly into the flour base, um I usually add a little sugar because it colors it up really nicely and salt. Then uh, you know, you s you put the the ice water in and you don't really have to worry about it getting too uh the gluten developing too much and getting tough as long as you are pretty quick about it. Uh I tend to never use Crisco. Um I know I don't stock it. Um I think you know, lard is freaking delicious.
+
+[6:46] Lard lard's amazing. The problem with lard is that if you you know the hydrogenated lard is not so good, but the hydrogenated lard is good from a a texture standpoint, even though it's extremely soft, whereas uh home rendered lard tends to have a solid fraction and a liquid fraction. The liquid fraction is just too lack liquid to really do it properly, so you want to take the more solid fraction. And if you use lard, you want it to be really, really, really, really chilled, really chilled. But that gives kind of like a little like savory note to pastries that I think is really lacking in most modern pies that don't use lard.
+
+[7:20] But even and then, you know, barring that, even though the texture theoretically isn't quite as good using butter as using Crisco, butter pie crusts are freaking delicious. I mean they're Yeah, I wanted to use butter, and Pat was insistent that I use Crisco. Well, I didn't even have Crisco in the house, so he had to go buy it. But I had butter, you know? So I mean the the way Crisco, the you know, the the particular uh fat melting characteristics of Crisco, plus the fact that it doesn't have uh any, you know, it doesn't have water in it the way that butter does kind of make it have uh that that kind of unique Crisco texture that some people really really like.
+
+[7:56] I I don't think it's necessarily worth it. I've never been a big fan. I mean, uh, even prior to trans fat days, I mean, Crisco I thought was good for certain applications, like certain frying applications, donuts, you want a hydrogenated fat because um once they cool down, a donut fried in regular oil is gonna taste uh in liquid fat, liquid oil is gonna taste really greasy, whereas something fried in uh in a hydrogenated fat is going to um taste more like a donut, right? I mean, the flip side of that's also true. So, for instance, you want to fry fly fry potato chips in uh in liquid oil.
+
+[8:34] If you fry potato chips in a solid fat, they taste not oily, greasy, and they leave like this like grease coating on your tongue when you eat them, similar to what a donut might do, but in a potato chip that's considered extremely bad. In fact, um that is the story behind the whole kind of uh OLE remember OLESC? Wow, remember that? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[8:55] So for those of you that don't remember, uh Olestra, basically, there's a um a technique that they applied. They can apply it to any fat uh and it makes it such that you can no longer digest the fat, right? And so this was you know heralded years ago as like this is gonna make it so that you can eat un unlimited quantities of fried foods and it's gonna have the same effect on your waistline as if you ate everything steamed, basically. That was the that was the deal. Uh a couple of problems with it were one, uh when you uh do this uh procedure, you're no longer absorbing the fat, but that those fats still tend to uh the fat soluble vitamins also then tend not to be absorbed, so you're lacking in fat soluble vitamins.
+
+[9:34] That's the one problem. And two, if it's a liquid fat, right, like if you were to do it to make olestra olive oil, let's say, uh I don't know how I'm gonna put this in a way that's not gross, but it basically runs through your system and out your butt, right? Oh wow. And so that was what led to uh the phenomenon, and there is no polite way, it's the technical term, known as um uh anal leakage, right? Was what they called it, right?
+
+[10:00] Now, similar phenomenon, by the way, with this new uh new like three years ago product called LI. Remember, you know, you've heard of a lie, it's spelled kind of weird, but that's the diet pill that came out. Yeah. Yeah, it's a diet pill that basically you can eat and it stops you from absorbing fat. And uh I tested it, and the same kind of a thing happens.
+
+[10:21] You don't want to consume a lot of liquid fats when you're when you're on uh a lot. I don't even know if they sell it anymore, that stuff a lot. Anyway, so uh so back to where we're going. So what what happened was is they were frying potato chips in uh in liquid um in in an oil, liquid oil based uh OLESTR product, and basically it just ran straight through the test subjects, right? And that's where it picked up the really bad uh bad, bad uh press that if you ate this you were gonna have all kinds of you know gastrointestinal problems and it's gonna, you know, you're gonna set yourself on spray and whatnot.
+
+[10:56] So the but the the manufacturer w uh I forget who it was who did it with the Proctor and Gamble, whoever, that they basically were like, okay, uh no, it's free to lay actually. It's free to lay. Uh they uh they were like, okay, look, here's what we have to do. We have to use a hydrogenated fat so that um it's gonna be a solid in your body and it's not just gonna dribble through you like you're one long pipe. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[11:18] So so then they started frying um potato chips in solid olestra and they no longer had the underwear problem, but no one liked the taste of the potato chips, right? Because you don't want solid fat. You don't want your potato chips fried in solid fat. Okay. So what did they do?
+
+[11:37] They invented this new system, this air curtain, this hot air curtain, where they would fry the potato chips in this solid olestra and then they would put it on a conveyor and blast it with hot air. And the hot air would uh would would you know nuke the surface coating of the uh of fat right off the top of the chip so that when you ate it, you wouldn't perceive as much the fact that it had been fried with a solid fat, all right? Um and it wouldn't leak anymore, right? But the problem was is that you could always kind of tell that the thing had been fried in a solid fat, and most people then assumed that they could, well, I could taste OLESCR, you know, it doesn't taste good, I could taste no you can't. It's like the fact that they fried it in a uh solid fat is the problem.
+
+[12:18] If they had fried it in um you know, in a liquid OLESCRA, you would never have been able to taste the difference, except for, you know, you'd have to change your clothes a bunch. I mean, at one time I thought that I thought that uh Olestra was going to be the wave of the future and that there would be, you know, uh you know, in the in the in the dining room of the future, every chair would be its own chamber pot. But that has not come to pass. And instead, we have we have shied away from that, even as a, you know, I assume that culturally we would uh embrace anything that allowed us to um you know eat uh one thing constantly without it having an effect on our system, but for for some reason the the bad press surrounding it still prevented us from from uh embracing it wholeheartedly. Anyways, OLestra.
+
+[13:03] Back to, and by the way, for a very good account of O Lestra, you should read uh Jeffrey Steingarden's first book, The Man. I always get it wrong. I always confuse, and I've I think I said this on the air before, Jeff Jeffrey Steingarten, our good friend, uh Vogue food writer, uh, you know, renowned author, television personality, uh lunatic. Um he wrote a book called uh The Man Who Ate Everything, and I always confuse it with the Oliver Sachs book, The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. And so I always like I'm like the man who mistook his wife for someone who ate everything.
+
+[13:33] I always, for some reason, I don't know why I confuse these two books together, but I always do. Anyway, he has an extremely interesting article in that about uh and early, by the way, article on uh Olestra, uh, which I recommend that you go read. But the other m well, one of the other must-read articles, if there if there was such a thing in that book as a non-must-read article, I don't know, but uh one of the must-read articles in that book is on uh making pie crusts. And he um basically goes through a million different pie crusts uh and then ends up uh hanging out with Marion Cunningham, who uh was the you know famous, famous cookbook author and editor of uh, I believe of the more recent fanny Farmer, so that's been a long time since I looked it up. Uh and basically learns how to make pie crust from her, and it's extremely simple.
+
+[14:21] And I use their recipe now whenever I can, which is you put an absurd amount of butter, cut it up, make sure the butter is pretty cold, put it in the flour, uh add the salt or whatever sugar you want, knead it in with your fingers until it resembles like coarse, crumbly crap, like some things as big as peas and other things smaller. Stir in uh water, it doesn't have to be crazy ice water, make sure you have enough for it to bind together quickly, form it into a dough, uh roll it out without much ado, try not to re-roll it and go. And that's like, you know, that's it. You know what I mean? Makes great makes a great crazy.
+
+[14:54] Can you do it in the kitchen aid when you do it or you do it? Oh hell no. I use my use my hands in a fork. It's so simple. That's the thing.
+
+[14:59] Like everyone like you know, they they have these recipes, like when you're making puff pastry, people use, for instance, the uh um food processor to cut the cut the the butter in to get flakiness instead of having you make like you know the this the the butter mixture, folding it over and rolling it a bunch of times. With pie crust, there is never a reason to use any piece of mechanical equipment whatsoever. Like, you know, you just get a bowl and uh put in the flour, put in the I would say butter, but or I would say lard, and then barring lard, a mixture of lard and butter, barring a mixture of lard and butter, butter, barring that, I don't know, whatever the hell you have lying around your house. But yeah, Crisco, whatever. Um but uh you know, no offense to the Crisco people, except for the fact that it's because of Crisco and things like it that we no longer use lard because uh there was a big switch away, but that that's a whole separate story.
+
+[15:51] We'll get into that maybe later. Anyway, so uh uh you just put the the the flour stuff in and quickly with your fingers, like r rub it. And Steingarden has a great uh description of it because if there's anything Steingarden is, is he's extremely anal about not just recording what you say, but what you do. That's why he likes to go into the kitchen and watch people cook. Uh and so if you've ever cooked with him, he'll get something over the over the phone or whatnot.
+
+[16:17] He'll he wants to show up and examine everything you're doing, and he'll ask you constantly why you're doing X, why you're doing Y, and doing readings. And it's because he knows that um regardless of what you say, right, you almost always do something else, or you really don't understand why you're doing what you're doing anyway, and so he needs to basically decode it. And that's one of the reasons why he's been uh why he's so interesting and why he's been um so successful. Um so he has a very good description of of how to do it, but you basically just stick your hands in and you uh rub your thumb over your fingers like like almost like you were snapping, but across all your fingers, but uh or like you were rubbing, or like you were rubbing through your fingers like your fingers were the tines of a comb or a fork and you're rubbing it through. So you just rub it in and then uh just stir in the water with a fork, gather it into a ball with your hand, and you're good to go.
+
+[17:06] I mean, really, it's that's it's that freaking simple. There's nothing simpler than making a good pie crust, and yet there's not there's few things that cause as much anxiety among people. Secondly, uh, you know, you know, no offense to uh Nastasha's friend Pat here, but is he is he a known is he a known good cook? Is he what? Known to be a cook?
+
+[17:27] Yeah, is he a good cook? No. Then you should never listen to him about anything. You should like to go. Here's his mom, his mom.
+
+[17:34] Was his mom there? No. Then you should not listen to him. It's like saying, you know what? My mom, she's a really good doctor.
+
+[17:41] My mom knows how to cure uh, you know, X, Y, and Z. Or my mom's a good surgeon, so I'm gonna listen to listen to me about how to chop someone's heart out. Really? No. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:52] It's like, if the experts in the room with you, then um, you know, then follow the advice. But if it if, you know, if it's just some, you know, if it if it's like, you know, my mom's a good cook, well, you know, so what? You know, especially considering that there are eight million ways to do anything. And so uh, and even perfectly, and that's my that's always been my issue with you know, magazines like the Cooks Illustrated, or even sometimes when, you know, when we, you know, when we write, or when I write, you know, your urge is to say, this is the ultimate X, this is the ultimate Y, or the best, blah, blah, blah. In reality, um, there are a lot and there are a lot of things that are good done a bunch of different ways, and the idea isn't to find the one best way, but to have your way be coherent from beginning to end and to produce a delicious product.
+
+[18:38] There are many paths, there are many ways. Um but anyway, so I've been blabbering on about the pie crust. Why don't we go to our first commercial break? Call in your questions as 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[19:04] When black body comes, stand down by the door. Catch the bread and when the guy comes for the fall. When black body comes, I could let them everything alone, and before my friends find out I'll be on the road. When back is old to know it's not too big. Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[19:55] Calling all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Jack choosing the music today. Jack, what is that?
+
+[20:02] I like that. Steele Dan. Steely Dan. Uh Steely Dan taking their name, I believe, from a uh William Burroughs uh uh quote, right? It's I I believe I uh there's so many like unf family friendly things, but I believe Steely Dan is from a William uh William Burroughs book and it refers to uh a toy used uh in private by women, a specific brand of them, or men, I guess.
+
+[20:28] I don't know. Is that is that true, Jack? That's true, yeah. Yeah, interesting. Uh Nastash, you still with us?
+
+[20:34] Mm-hmm. I'm having a frozen virgin lemonade. Well, wait, wh what? Wait, are you having a Dell's lemonade? I don't know.
+
+[20:42] Some guy handed it to me. Oh, Jesus, is it Dell's? Turn to the guy and say, is this a Dell's lemonade? No, he walked away. He's like it's it just has lots of pieces of lemon right in it.
+
+[20:52] That's that's Dell's. That's Dell's. That's that is you you have Rhode Island in a cup. All right. So like that's one of the like here's the thing, right?
+
+[21:01] Everyone says there's no such thing as regional American X, Y, or Z, and they're full of horse manure. Like uh, yeah, Rhode Island's got a couple of classic things. Anyone that's I didn't grow up in Rhode Island, but anyone that's grown up in Rhode Island knows Dell's Lemonade, and Dell's Lemonade is famous for um you got the slight it's a slushy one, right? And it's got little pieces of of of uh like the lemon in it, and it's classic. But they sell a packaged dell's that I've had that's okay, but it's not I don't think it's the same thing that they use if you get it from the real Dell stand in Rhode Island, but I can't be sure.
+
+[21:37] Any Rhode Island fan should call in and you know, and there's by the way, there's like a uh a Rhode Island kind of uh a New York Rhode Island culinary mafia. Uh you know, rut hello? Yeah, no someone's putting together a table, of course, behind me because it can't be this show without construction going up. So it sounds like a a pig is running around behind you, it's snorting. Right?
+
+[22:01] Yeah. So yeah, so like uh Wiley Dufrain, my brother-in-law, is Rhode Island. Uh there's a gazillion New York chefs that are Rhode Island. Isn't uh isn't uh Kevin also from Rhode Island? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:15] Who who else? Who else do we know from Rhode Island? Small state, a lot of chefs. Right? Yeah.
+
+[22:20] Yeah, strange. Okay. Uh let me see. Oh, by the way, did I already say this? Call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[22:28] That is uh 718-4972128. Nastasha, you'll be glad to know that I in fact still have not memorized it, and Jack had to give me a card with the uh with the with the number. Sometimes I think you just toy with me. No, I I really have not memorized it. If it's one of those things, like uh don't you have anything that you just have a mental block on that you can't that you can't memorize?
+
+[22:48] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, I can memorize many things. The number of uh to call into the show is not not one of those things.
+
+[22:56] Uh but you say it with such a flow that you think that you'd memorize it, you know. You say it the same way every time. Right. Well, you know what it's funny, it's like uh when you're reading something, and maybe this is part of the reason, when you're reading something, it literally just goes uh you know, th from your eyes out your mouth, and it's just that's it, it's gone. And I I had this happen when I was uh doing the ISCP, the uh International Association of Culinary Professionals with uh Chris Young, is the first time in my life we were doing a presentation for the awards for the cookbook awards, and it was the first time in my life I've ever used a teleprompter, and I have no idea what I said.
+
+[23:30] You know what I mean? It was like uh you know, it's it's it's it's like that's why you you know you ever see those things where like the newscasters are sitting there and they'll like someone will put something crazy in the teleprompter and they'll just start reading it with the same kind of emotion. I you know, I always thought they were dumb, but now I really understand it. It's that you you know, all you're concentrating on is delivering the text that's on the screen, and the mental activity it would take to process it at the same time is just you know too much. Anyway, so maybe that's why.
+
+[23:57] Maybe if I actually sat there I could memorize it, but because I've never done it and I've just read it off the piece of paper, I'll never memorize it. What do you think? Yeah. Oh, I was gonna tell you, LA is keeps asking about special treats that you like, so I've been sending them information on special things. Oh, Jesus, really?
+
+[24:14] Honestly? And okay, so uh what Nastasha's referring to is I'm I'm going off to Los Angeles. In fact, uh I have my bags with me now. As soon as the show is over, I'm going to John F. Kennedy International Airport and flying to LA, we're shooting a pilot.
+
+[24:29] Um, but I can't obviously talk about the pilot because then they would execute me. So apparently they have been emailing Nastasha saying what things that I uh in enjoy eating, but the problem is, um, and this is an interesting fact for those that have never met Nastasha, is that she's vicious. She's a vicious, vicious vi Jack, true or false. Um Thank you, Jack. He's just nervous because he doesn't want to doesn't want to suffer Nastasha's wrath when she gets back.
+
+[24:58] But um, yeah, Nastasha's uh yeah, yeah. So anyway, so here's the deal. Uh I guarantee you, and I'll find out when I get there. I guarantee you, Nastasha has only said either things that are embarrassing to me or that I actually despise, right? And then the funny thing is there are very few things I actually despise.
+
+[25:16] She'll she'll say something like this get pretzel sticks, even though everyone on earth knows I detest pretzel sticks because they're not real pretzels. Specifically, I said real pretzels and they have to be in knots. But they don't like it. I like that, but do they even have those in California? I mean, that's an East Coast thing, right?
+
+[25:34] Do they have real pretzels? We have Snyders. Snyders isn't that bad, right? No, Snyders is okay. Snyders used to be one of the best, but they've been stale now for about 15 years uh or 20 years.
+
+[25:43] The Snyders that come in a box have been stale, but that's old school. Like I used to eat those. That's what what the the Arnold clan has been. You know, my I I know I've discussed this on the air before, but uh I'm going to Florida soon, uh, not only to taste mangoes, which you know, maybe we'll talk about later if we have enough time, maybe not, with Nastasha and Harold McGee. And uh I'm hoping to get Tony uh Corneliaro out, but I don't think he's gonna be able to go.
+
+[26:06] But um, you know, anyways, uh right after that I'm visiting my uh 92-year-old uh grandpa and my ninety uh eight-year-old uh great uncle, Uncle Luke. I think I told you this. My kids want to visit him because they think he's Uncle Luke Skywalker. They have no they have no idea. Anyway, um he uh back in the depression worked in a pretzel factory and so back in the because they're all from uh Lancaster County you know uh Pennsylvania and so they uh yeah so I come from a pretzel eating background you are not related to me unless you like eating pretzels and the first thing you learn in my house is that pretzels must be twisted.
+
+[26:43] So what else did you tell them I like? Did you tell them I but you know uh for those of you out there if you want to send me something I hate the only two foods in the world that I don't like are notto which is I've discussed this uh and Harold McGee says that he has a natto that I'm actually gonna like which is a uh a uh fermented soybean product that to me tastes like uh garbage and the and uh the other is uh melon I don't like melon so did you tell them to get me plenty of cantaloupe even though you know I hate it no I'm not gonna tell you what I told them it'll be surprising you get that it's gonna be some it's gonna be something like really embarrassing. Like make sure you know what here's another I'm gonna go out on a limb like there are things that are people are embarrassed by that I am not embarrassed by I am not embarrassed to have a big pink drink in my hands like a giant pink fruity drink in my hands. If it's delicious I have no I have no problem with it right I mean what do you think like I know that there are certain drinks that if I see a dude with them I'm like really that's what you're gonna have that's what you're gonna drink but like I I I think that if there is a if there's a really good drink then you know you know what it's light beer would embarrass you more than having a drink with a flour garnish in it. I don't yeah I don't I mean I look uh I don't understand light beer I really don't I I don't I just don't I just don't under I don't understand it.
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+[27:58] I mean uh uh uh okay okay one caveat. Like right now you're on the beach, right? Yeah. Is it piss hot where you are? Yeah.
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+[28:05] Yeah, okay. So I mean, you know, a corona has its place there, which is basically a light beer, right? I mean, because it's basically like I want to have a little bit of alcohol and feel a little bit festive, but what I really want to do is drink seltzer water. Right? Yeah.
+
+[28:19] Right? So, like, you know, you feel a little bit bad just ordering a seltzer and you feel bad ordering a light beer, so you order a corona, which is essentially a light beer without the light beer label. Anyway. Mm-hmm. Uh, how the hell do we get on this subject?
+
+[28:32] I have no idea. Things you like and dislike. Oh, yeah, because of California. Anyway, okay. So uh let's get to a uh real question here.
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+[28:39] Uh this is uh this is from uh I hope I pronounced this right, Myrica. Uh hi Nastash and Dave. Perhaps hold sec. Oh, we got a call in. So Myrick, I'll cut get back to your one question in a minute.
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+[28:50] Caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Josh and Tampa. How are you doing, Dave? Hey, doing all right. Good.
+
+[28:55] Got a question. A couple of years ago I bought uh the flavor bible. It's got a lot of good ideas, but uh I wonder if you could elaborate on the actual act of balancing flavors. I know something's too salty, you could add something acidic, and if something's too bitter, you add sweet, but uh I mean, how do you fine-tune a recipe? Huh, that's interesting.
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+[29:14] Uh I actually own that, but I always for I always mix it up with different uh books. Who are the authors on that one again? Yeah, I couldn't tell you right off my head. Yeah, uh the idea of balance is really uh it it's it's really interesting. I tend y you know, if you every cook has their own feeling for what they what they do to to balance, and usually when you taste something, um you'll you know why it's flat.
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+[29:38] If it you know, if it if it's flat, also by the way, when I'm balancing a dish, what I'll tend to do is take a little bit of that dish out and then play with that little bit of the dish on the side so that I can kind of see which direction my my additions are taking it, so I don't kind of botch the whole thing up. But if something just tastes overall like like low in flavor, dead, I add a pinch of salt to see whether the whole thing wakes up a little bit. And if it does I'll keep adding a little more I mean first of all like getting the salt balance right I think is the is the most important thing. And then the next one is you know almost always m um you know dishes especially braises or any anything like that like big liquid based things tend to be tend to lack acidity unless you specifically added it. But you know typically you'll add those things uh towards the end of cooking so you know first I'll usually first check a salt component and then I'll check a uh and then I'll check uh an acidity and I I personally do a lot of like meaty umami bolstering stuff either with fish sauce or with uh or with soy um so even in um non-western I mean even in western dishes I'll end up hitting it with like a little bit of not like a not a normal uh fish sauce one of the milder more kind of meaty fish sauces like uh like ishiri from Japan or or Ayu which you can get from Japan um because some of the you know some of the more traditional uh Southeast Asian ones can kind of quickly take on that Southeast Asian flavor otherwise or tiny bits of soy and not really so that you know you've done it just so that you kind of like really like like blow something out a little bit it just really changes it and rounds it into more meaty so like even like in like a bechamel sometimes I'll add a uh a pinch of those kind of uh things I tend not to have MSG in my house or I might ex experiment with that.
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+[31:33] So in general, I don't do a lot of uh like uh m masking, right? So also I obviously you add sugar to things to round them out. But in general what what I think in terms of balance is that you want to get you you want to get the overall flavor pretty good. Like when you make a stock, right? You don't season the stock from the get-go.
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+[31:53] You try to balance meat and vegetable and it's very kind of uh but when you taste it you could tell what it could be but it's very flat because it doesn't have any of the other things that are in it and you want it that way because you're going to reduce it by a lot. And so that's when you you bring out the balancing act. First you pop up all the flavors by adding something like salt which is going to enhance the flavor of everything. And then or you know or if something's too salty you can add sweetness which is going to balance out the saltiness, which was I think kind of the thing you were talking about before. The problem with that is that if you go that route if you I what you don't want to be in a position of is having to uh tone down another flavor by adding another flavor on top of it because then everything just gets kind of overwhelming over time.
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+[32:34] I think you do you know what I'm saying? Do you agree or no? No I I agree because I've been trying to make like an Asian foul cedar salad using fish sauce and uh egg yolk and I've been trying to haven't been really going that well. Right. I mean I think what you want to do on that because that sounds actually like a a good idea you should try to source this stuff called IU which is this uh IU sauce it's a sweet fish from Japan and I don't know who's carrying this stuff but it's the most unbelievable fish sauce I've ever had it's crazy because it's a dead cross between fish sauce and like bacon and ham juice.
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+[33:05] It's nuts. It's crazy. I you ayu yeah um but the uh I I think it's available now but I I'm I'm not sure it's it's it's amazing stuff. But I think what you're gonna want to do on the on the fish sauce and uh is use it as a very minor component. Do you know what I mean?
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+[33:23] Like like one dash of fish sauce in like a Caesar style thing is going to really pop and bring out that that fish sauce essence, especially are you are you doing it in addition to anchovy? No. J instead of anchovy. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge uh an anchovy fan, but um, you know, there's another way to go if you want to go uh stick with a more Italian kind of flavor set.
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+[33:47] There's uh a fish uh product called Colatura, which is basically like uh uh like an anchovy like oil. Doesn't taste like fish sauce, but is kind of in between like an like it's not fermented, but it's got some of the kind of the funkiness of uh of uh uh anchovies. You could take a look at that. That's you can get that from Italian specialty markets, but they they charge an arm and a leg for it. I think like uh if you were to go and use an anchovy, because I always put anchovy in my Caesar salad, you know, you crush crush I'll crush it up um for the flavor and also the emulsifying stuff.
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+[34:18] I tend to use salt pack anchovies because I like them a lot. But um I think a dash of fish sauce in that can really work well. The problem, how much were you adding before? Uh about a tablespoon. Yeah, so I would I would just go a lot less.
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+[34:31] I mean, fish sauce is one of those things where it's like small amounts, like add this kind of ineffable quality that you know that you it's hard to get any other way, and then you add a little bit more and now it tastes uh Asian on you. Do you know what I mean? Which is good if that's what you're looking for. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. The only thing I'm trying to find a substitute for the parmesan or uh aspect of cheese.
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+[34:53] Oh yeah. It's not really a cheese thing going on. You mean because you don't want cheese because of the Asian component or because Yeah, and it's it's interesting. Um, you know, the lack of dairy in uh in Asian cuisine is something I've been studying uh recently. Uh but also it's funny is the lack of dairy in uh like Italian classic or a lot of European fish based dishes.
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+[35:16] And I think that in the one case of uh dairy in Asia, a lot of um a lot of uh China, for instance, in the north, and then you know, even throughout the middle section used to eat a lot of dairy. And uh I think what happened during the Ming Dynasty, there's a reaction against anything having to do with uh kind of like northern invaders uh that they had just basically thrown off the yolk from and since dairy was considered something that came from kind of Central Asia and then and the north, they were like crap on dairy. We don't want to use it anymore. You know what I mean? And then uh in in Italian and European food, I think the lack of dairy with specifically with fish-based products, uh guess except for things like Caesar salad, which is not Italian, but you know, as a European derivative, is that um fish was eaten on fast days, and on fast days you didn't have dairy.
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+[36:03] You only had uh you had no meat and you had no dairy, so you had fish. And I think that's where a lot of the you know, for instance, fish pastas don't have uh cheese on them because of this ancient uh not ancient, but this you know, kind of old idea that you that you know on days that would you're having fish you're not having any dairy. Um anyway, but that that's uh uh aside from the point. So uh it's very hard to substitute for um parme parmesan, very hard. Uh nothing kind of tastes like that.
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+[36:35] Uh I mean you can make an entirely different thing. In other words, you could use an egg yolk and then do like fish sauce and some sort of like uh you know, something with a lot of enzyme breakdown products in it, like maybe like a miso and then you know, lime juice, I think it would taste good. It wouldn't taste like a Caesar salad. Do you know what I mean? No, no, no, that sounds great.
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+[36:54] Yeah. Oh, and then, you know, if you're gonna want to add some of the the that texture back, you could uh I mean nothing has that texture what has that texture. I mean you could crumple something like very, you know, like what could you crumple? I mean I don't know if is the idea to go vegetarian except for the uh egg. No, there's no vegetarian in this.
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+[37:15] Oh right, fish sauce. What the hell what the heck am I talking about? Brainless. Anyway, um the uh yeah I'm trying to think of what what I would add for the texture component of that. But I I would try like a flavor base like that 'cause that's delicious.
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+[37:26] Because the acid's really gonna balance out the I mean a fish sauce. I mean that's classic. You know what I mean? Like and and then I think the egg yolk's gonna add some body that you wouldn't normally get in a in a uh anything like that. Bring it closer to uh to a Caesar salad and um you know there's so many different flavors to play with with miso that I think you can really um balance then also not just body but sweetness and uh the amino acid um you know those amino flavors that you get in miso.
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+[37:51] So I would try that. Um you wanna talk about uh I mean have you been offered any uh T V jobs? I know like the celebrity chef is huge and you're friends with a lot of the big ones uh want to see if anything come your way. 'Cause I've been reading your article uh what is it on um Food Republic? On uh oh oh on uh or eater eater.
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+[38:14] Yeah well it's an interesting thing. I've done a lot of um I've done a lot of uh you know little spots on um y you know the expert for X Y and Z and uh I'm like I say I'm going to shoot a pilot now. If that pilot, you know, takes off I'll be a recurring character on that show. But you know, the T V's really hard because, you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And um uh, you know, the the kind of what I'm interested in is f fairly niche.
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+[38:43] You know, so like we have a fair you know, we have a the the people that read the the blog or listen to the show, you know, I really I really um like them because you know they they are dedicated to this kind of weird stuff that uh I'm in general interested in but it's hard to sell on a on a T V it's hard to sell on T V because um it's just I don't think it's mass mass market enough. I mean uh hopefully that that'll change um but that's always been the problem is trying to figure out something that um they could sell as kind of a mass market um show that is something that I'm still interested in. You know what I mean? Yeah I was like another question actually opinion. Do you think uh that modern gastronomy will ever make it to like the chilies or the Fridays level where these dishes that were you know that that have been done so much that nobody does them anymore but you know they could do it over there without anybody scoffing.
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+[39:36] You think it'll ever reach there? Just for like the novelty aspect which modern uh cooks try to avoid right well okay I mean there's there's a there's a couple of things I think that there um there's definitely um in those in those realms there's a search for novelty but it's very very um kind of reined in it has to be extremely friendly but novel. So you know they'll spend like a a bazillion dollars to come up with a new flavor that's a tiny bit outside of the box but is so friendly that someone will still order it. So some of the some of the more challenging stuff that's being done in modern cuisine is not going to trickle down anytime soon. Um you know, th there are certain exceptions, like you know, garnishes are uh or or techniques, but the core techniques that are being used in uh in new in new technologies, a lot of them come from um kind of a similar well spring of ideas that that those guys use.
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+[40:35] So, you know, I mean one of the major uh one of the major things that Farran really did was say, let let me look at industrial uh food manufacturing and see what it has to teach us about uh cooking. So, you know, and I feel that some of these techniques that are being used to make food better that were just industrial techniques before are gonna be used in in places that are more mass market to make food better eventually. And I think you know one of the key things is low t low temperature cooking. If you know when I go to the um shows where I see the equipment that's being sold to restaurants and food service change now, over the past couple of years there's been a big groundswell movement to move towards better temperature control. And what that means is people are going to care more and more about not overcooking their products or keeping them in top conditions.
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+[41:27] And to me that's one of the core things about um kind of this new mode of cooking and like one of the core values is is that and so I think that is definitely moving into uh what's going on. Now are you ever going to see liquid nitrogen at Applebee's? I don't know. I don't think so. Do you know what I mean?
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+[41:44] Uh unless it became kind of cost effective where they could get I mean I could see someone like you know I could see Chuck E. Cheese making liquid nitrogen ice cream as part of the uh as part of the you know the the pizza party thing for kids with the video games. I could see that because it's cool. Um but you know, I don't know whether any of the actual dishes are gonna make it. Um, but I think that there is going to be a trickle down of some of these techniques because um they just have legs.
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+[42:10] You know, some of some of them don't, some of the some of them do. You know? Right on. Yeah. Alright, well, thanks for calling in.
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+[42:17] No problem. All right. And uh uh before we run out of time, I should answer the question that Myrick had, because it's an interesting one, even though we've uh spoken a little bit about something similar before. Nastash, are you still there? Yep, I'm here.
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+[42:30] All right, so Myrica writes in, she says, Perhaps my cooking issue is not very high tech, but of course we like all cooking issues, right, Nastasha? Yeah. Yeah. Uh but since she loves our show more than any other show, which we really appreciate, uh, I hope you could share some nuggets of wisdom on the subject of pit roasting a pig. Uh uh, she's she's doing that.
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+[42:47] She's pit roasting a pig. Uh we have here this is her talking. We have a hole and a 100 pound Berkshire hog and a ton of banana leaves. We have pretty basic instructions, but absolutely no experience with pit roasting. I'm willing to go to any lengths to get excellent results, any special tips, tools, or references.
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+[43:02] Okay. Okay. Uh I like the fact that you said we are willing to go through any lengths to get excellent results. I appreciate that. Um here is your main problem is that uh you have a single 100 pound pig and uh it's very hard to get it right the first time around.
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+[43:18] If you're gonna if you're gonna um pit roast uh a pig, the basic the basic procedures are you build a fire uh and you uh you use rocks, you heat rocks with with a wood fire, uh I guess you could use charcoal, but wood fire. Uh and those rocks retain the heat that is then going to cook the animal over a long period of time after you bury it over with dirt, right? The other basic principle is that you um you're gonna wrap the pig in uh in banana leaves in in your case, which is gonna do two things, which is gonna keep the moisture in. Um well, it's gonna keep the moisture in, and it's also gonna stop the dirt from getting getting all over the pig. Uh the key things, one, you want to make sure that your stones aren't going to explode so but what I would do is I would uh find you want to find um stones that uh don't have a lot of contained water in them that don't have uh a lot of fissures that could break apart and then what I would do is build a fire outside and throw a bunch of rocks into it right and see whether and l step away step away from the rocks and then if they explode they explode you know uh I've uh I've had rocks uh you know I've done a lot of work with uh heating rocks and uh indeed they explode and when a rock explodes it's no joke you know what I mean it's like sprays everywhere little little shards of rock and and stuff I uh totally freaked out the pastry uh you know one of the pastry chefs in a in a kitchen at the school because I was heating rocks over over a burner.
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+[44:44] So I would preheat the rocks, check it, dig a pit, then you're gonna need to heat the rocks for um for several hours. I would also, if you're gonna be willing to go through any lengths, I would definitely fire up the oven once, get something that is like has a similar weight to the pig, you know, that is cheaper than a pig and then attempt to roast it all the way through in the in the earth as a test for your system, right? So what you're gonna need to do is build up a big enough layer of rock such that it retains heat for long enough to cook the pig all the way through right even though it's not going to be so hot that it's gonna overcook or ruin the pig at any one point. So I would get some uh long ther if you if you can I would get some long thermocouples which aren't that expensive. You can get them for like $15, $20 a piece on Amazon, really long ones, and then a thermocouple thermometer and embed them into the ground in several points along your proposed oven.
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+[45:41] Bury it like you were going to make the thing uh you know after it's been fired up, and then take measurements of the temperatures over time. And you're gonna want it to, it can stay up fairly high. So I would uh I would measure it and make sure that it, you know, it stays up in kind of that brazing range for several hours and then maintains a temperature above the cook point of the pork, which is going to be in roughly 60 Celsius or 140 Fahrenheit for a good uh depending on I can't picture how big around a 100-pound pig is, but not that much. I think like a good like six hours or something like that. If it stays around, hovers around there but isn't too high for that range.
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+[46:34] I think you're gonna be uh good. I I read a very uh good idea that somebody had, um, and I will get you the website because it's a it seems to be a fairly decent reference on how to build this. It's uh recipe cottage. Oh, recipecottage.com forward slash Hawaiian uh forward slash uh forward slash whole roast pig. Um you know, you can search for that, but it has a good idea that you wrap the pig after you do the banana leaves, you wrap the pig in chicken wire so that you can easily pick it up without the pig totally falling apart.
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+[47:08] I think that's a kind of a a genius, a genius uh idea. Um the other thing you're gonna want to do is take care of the meat. The one of the problems with cooking whole animals is that no one portion of the of the uh of the meat is the same, right? So some cuts want to be cooked by brazing over a long period of time to break down the collagen. Those ones are the ones that are gonna taste best using this kind of a technique because they have enough um collagen in them that when they're cooked, they're gonna stay uncuous, even though the meat has technically gone well above the temperature that you would want to cook it uh if you were just cooking it, let's say as a steak or medium rare.
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+[47:44] But the the other muscles like the loin, the things that don't have a lot of uh exercise or a lot of movement, these ones, even if they stay juicy because you've wrapped them and they have enough in-trained moisture in it from the thing, they're going to be not prime uh texture because those muscles aren't meant to be cooked that long. Uh and this is the problem I think it's I don't think it's possible to cook a whole animal such that unless you go through crazy lengths like uh like I did with the uh with the turkey that you know I made a uh artificial aluminum skeleton for and pumped you know molten, you know, hot butter through it. I mean, like you know, unless you go through bonkers things, it's very hard to get a whole animal to come together at the same time. So one thing I would do is if you can salt out or get some salt or something in the areas that don't have as much connective tissue uh beforehand, that is going to protect them a little bit by having them keep more moisture by basically uh making the muscles be able to hold on to the water a little bit better. Um so I would definitely do that.
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+[48:43] Uh I would uh I wish you could run some tests. It's all about running tests first, since I've never cooked uh one underground. I've done spit roast whole pigs, and the idea there is to basically stretch out the animal so that all meats uh get done at the same amount uh uh uh in the same amount of time. So you're also gonna have a problem with your pig that if you have places in the thigh uh in the leg, especially where the leg meets the body, it's gonna be very thick there, and so that's gonna take the longest to cook, and you'll be ruining the rest of the meat while that's happening. That's why a lot of recipes will tell you to score out the meat so you can get down close to the bone in those areas, but then you have the problem of you're gonna leach a lot of juices out during that procedure, even if you wrap it in in banana leaves.
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+[49:21] So, I mean, I don't know whether if I was gonna do it myself, I might stretch it out so it's long and then wrap it, although that goes against what I think most people would tell you to do. But uh I'm gonna try to do a little more research. Um maybe post something. If you post something to eater, to the eater thing, hopefully I'll have some time to do some more research uh later this week, and I can have some more uh definitive answers for you, Marika. But thanks for writing in.
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+[49:47] And uh I think I'm I think I might have to either do this from LA next week or I might have I hope I don't have to skip a week, right, Jack? That would be terrible. That would be awful. Uh Nastasha, thanks for joining us from uh Sunny Rhode Island. Hey Nastash, I heard that you found a skate on the uh on the beach, and instead of eating it, you threw it back in the water.
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+[50:06] What's up with that? The seagull had already attacked it. Well, which is it? Which is it? The seagull attacked it and it was gonna die anyway, in which case you should have eaten it, or or what?
+
+[50:16] I threw it back in. I I threw it back in. Don't you like skate? No. Is that the same thing as a stinger?
+
+[50:24] No. Skate me you skate. Skate's delicious. You don't like skate? Maybe it was a stingray then, because it looked like a stingray.
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+[50:32] They don't have no skates look like stingrays, but they're not like a stingray. I mean, they look like like Minnie's stingrays. How am I gonna bring it in, Dave? How am I gonna bring it in? It was on the beach, you said.
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+[50:42] Yeah. Well, with my bare hand. Yeah. Anyway, scapes delicious. You know, uh, another one of those things that for years and years and years was a trash fish, they would throw it away because no one realized how delicious it was.
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+[50:55] Uh delicious, delicious fish. Anyway, uh, this has been cooking issues. Please come back next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[51:20] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
+
+[51:46] Oh, you daddy rat. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. In the wake of the massive E.
+
+[52:07] coli outbreak in Germany, which was finally traced to organic sprouts. The editors of Food Safety News uh published an editorial suggesting that all sprouts should come with a warning label. The CDC or Center for Disease Control is echoing that sentiment, saying sprouts are not healthy food for everyone. Children, the elderly, and persons whose immune systems are not functioning well should not eat raw sprouts, because current treatment of seeds and sprouts cannot get rid of all the bacteria present. Persons who are at high risk for complications from foodborne illness should probably not eat raw sprouts.
+
+[52:43] According to an article in the current issue of emerging infectious diseases, CDC's peer-reviewed journal, which tracks new and re-emerging infectious diseases worldwide. Although sprouts are often considered a health food, the warm humid conditions needed for growing sprouts from seeds are also ideal for bacteria to flourish. Salmonella, E. coli, and other bacteria can grow to high levels without affecting the appearance of the sprouts. Researchers have treated both seeds and sprouts with heat or washed them in solutions of chlorine, yum, alcohol, and other chemicals.
+
+[53:17] Some of these disinfectants reduced the levels of bacteria, but a potential hazard remained, especially for persons with weak immune systems, that would be the elderly, children, pregnant women, etc. High temperatures that would kill the bacteria on the seeds would also keep them from sprouting. So until an effective way is found to prevent illness from sprouts, they really should be eaten with caution, if at all. And by the way, it's National Sprout Month. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Geefer.
+
+[53:44] Check out a small clip from the food scene hosted by Michael Harlan Turkell, a show where food and art intersect. I think most recently you had a chocolate waterfall that had five tons of chocolate flowing. And you'd put on what a protective suit, walk through a waterfall, make your own chocolates within this kind of contained environment. And most recently, a rabbit cafe. Can you explain that one to me a little bit?
+
+[54:12] Well, I'm this also slightly comes from jellies as well, because in England, everyone has these uh rabbit jelly molds. It's the most popular mold everyone goes, Oh, I had rabbit jellies as a kid. And we've always been awfully bewildered by why, why rabbit jellies? The only way to get to the bottom of that was to get a whole hard of rabbits out from a cafe with them and have people talk rabbits and these. Yeah.
+
+[54:29] Um so it kind of has resonance with uh one of one of our favorite cookbooks, which we think an awful lot of uh you know modern chefs have have is the dark secret under that pillow. Um, which the future is. Want to hear more? Well, tune into the food scene live every week, Tuesdays at 3 p.m., or you can find all the archive shows on our website, or subscribe to the podcast and iTunes. Thanks for listening.
+
+[55:04] The following is a message from Zingerman's. From June 30th to July 3rd, 2011. Come hang out at Camp Bacon, a four-day festival hosted by Zingerman's. The main event is an all-day affair at Zingerman's Roadhouse, featuring plenty of bacon, bacon learning, and such luminaries as Alan Benton, John T. Edge, Molly Stevens, and more.
+
+[55:25] The event will be taking place in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Proceeds from this event benefit Southern Foodways Alliance. Also, on Friday, July 1st, there'll be a special benefit performance featuring Andre Williams and the Gold Stars and special guest John Langford and Skull Orchard. Visit www.zingerman's campbacon.com for more information and for tickets. Once again, that's www.zingerman's campbacon.com.
+
+[55:57] The following is a public service announcement from Just Food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the Just Food City Chicken Project 2011. The City Chicken Project would not be possible without the volunteer hours, donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work with. Just Food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make fresh, locally grown food accessible to all. To donate, search on Kickstarter.com for Just Food and find their City Chicken Project.
+
+[56:31] For more information on Just Food, visit JustFood.org or call 212-645-9880. That's 212-645-9880. Let's keep making New York City a better place to live and eat.
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+[0:06] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. Whole Foods Market is a proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network and the Department of Transportation Summer Streets, a three-day series of events dedicated to healthy active living on the car-free streets of New York City. Join us at the Whole Foods Market City Picnic Area on 24th Street and Park Avenue the first three Saturdays in August.
+
+[0:45] Find more information at the DOT's website, keyword Summer Streets. Oh, you dead. Hello and welcome to Live Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday, except the last three ones from 12 to 1245. I am in Robert's, uh, but uh Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, uh, you know, the motor of the Cooking Issues bus, is uh actually gonna call in from North Carolina from the Outer Banks, but I think she's having some technical issues.
+
+[1:34] We'll get her when she comes in. Uh, let me call in all your questions, by the way, all your live cooking questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So I'll take the first question first, and that's from Ross McGuire from Dublin.
+
+[1:49] I'm excited to have a uh someone who listens in Dublin. I've only uh managed to go to Ireland once, and I only got to spend a couple hours in Dublin, which is preposterous because from all accounts it's a great city. Uh, and I'm anxious to go back. So uh very excited. Um getting a question from Dublin and was wondering, are we still on?
+
+[2:08] I was wondering if you and Dave are still doing cooking issues. Uh though Nastasha and Dave are still doing cooking issues on Heritage Radio. I pick it up as a podcast and it's become a huge favorite of mine every week. Uh and it's David, we have been a source of inspiration, which we appreciate. Uh Ross thinks he's stuck in Dublin.
+
+[2:21] I would say you're lucky to be in Dublin. Uh and anyway, he's hoping that uh we're coming back sometime soon. Well, here we are. Uh and uh I'll tell you why, Ross, that we haven't been on for the past three weeks. Uh the past three Tuesdays in a row, I have been in transit uh from one place to the other.
+
+[2:39] Three Tuesdays ago, I was flying back from California because uh I was uh lucky enough to go shoot a uh pilot for uh ABC. God knows if it'll ever get get aired. Um but it was a a cooking-based thing where I was a judge. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to talk about it, except for I will tell you that I have tasted peacock now, whereas I hadn't tasted it before. Peacock, as you might know, was one of the uh animals that was highly prized uh as a foodstuff from the Roman times, perhaps before, but I I know from the Roman times uh up through um the mid you know middle ages, primarily because it's a really amazing looking bird.
+
+[3:17] Because by all accounts, uh it didn't taste very good. It was kind of dry and stringy, especially using the cooking uh techniques of the time. And I have to say, it you know has the ability to become a very tough, stringy bird, but it um from my experience over the past couple weeks can be cooked properly. And then the last two weeks I've been en route uh from and to Florida, where the main uh business I did down there, I did uh actually, if you guys have uh are familiar with the uh truck, you know, the food truck uh explosion that's been going on, one of the best ones uh around is uh gastropod in Miami done by uh Chef Barrum uh Jeremiah Bullfrog, and we did a uh, you know, uh um an event together in Miami where I did cocktails along with uh Chadzilla Croof, if you know that blog, uh, and it was a really good time. Uh but I also went down there with Harold McGee and Nastasha to taste uh exotic fruits and mangoes, and we had some of the most amazing mangoes.
+
+[4:10] We unfortunately, because we were caught in a torrential torrential downpour both days in a row, only got to sample maybe I haven't really counted yet, but maybe sixty to eighty types of mangoes. I usually I like to do at least a hundred uh in a one or two-day tasting, just so you can get the f kind of a full uh variety of different kinds of flavors that a particular fruit can can do. So, you know, when we did citrus, we did a one-day citrus that was over a hundred varieties, we did a two-day apple that was over two hundred varieties, a pear day that was a hundred varieties. You know, I just it's a nice round number because then you could say that you know you've exhaustively tasted at least that many, and you really do get uh you really after the first 40 or 50 get an idea of the range of flavors that can go on. But I had no idea how good a mango can be, because the mangoes that are shipped up to New York uh all go through a process, no matter where they come from, even if they come from Florida, of uh going through a heat treatment to kill fruit flies and any other insects that might be nesting uh in the you know, or you know, whatever they do inside of the mangoes.
+
+[5:10] So they're immersed in hot water, and that hot water can uh kill some of the aromas and also prevent uh the natural ripening process from taking place exactly as it otherwise would have. Um so basically, the mangoes we get can be okay, but they're never gonna be the world's greatest mangoes. So, you know, went to Florida, got them off the tree, and I can in various ripenesses and various flavors. There's there's a couple of different styles of mango, right? They roughly break down into ones that have derived from the Indians uh Indian mangoes, ones that are derived from Southeast Asian, like Thai style mangoes, uh, and then there's a bunch of Florida mangoes that are kind of their own thing that are are are hybrids of those that have been brought in.
+
+[5:50] But also Egyptian mangoes, delicious. So there's uh a wide variety of mangoes, and I hope to have a a blog post on that soon. But I you know, I was amazed at the kind of different flavors that could come out of a mango. There's one that tastes like a creamsickle, many, many that have a like a coconut. I mean, just amazing, amazing stuff.
+
+[6:07] Anyway, oh Nastash is on like hey Nastasha, how you doing? Good, how are you? How are the outer banks? Uh it's actually not that humid down here. I'll give me a break.
+
+[6:17] I'll have you know I've been there. I have I'll have you know I've been there before. But you you you know I would tell you the truth. It's actually not that human. So it's it's not humid.
+
+[6:26] No, I mean not right now. It's it's about eighty-five right now. Yeah, but nothing feels humid when it's eighty-five. Tell me when it gets up to ninety-five degrees. I will I'll check back in and here's what I don't want to know.
+
+[6:37] I don't want to know is it comfortable? That is a useless piece of information to me. I want to know the exact temperature and the humidity because you know, eighty-five degrees, even when it's like a zillion percent humidity, especially because I know you're stepping into an air conditioned uh house when you step into it. So you're like, man, it feels great this air-conditioned house. No, I'm outside right now, I'm on a porch.
+
+[6:57] You're on a porch right now. Yeah, and it's not humid. I mean, there's a little bit of moisture in the air, but not what I was expecting. Well, it's not ninety-five degrees yet. When's it gonna get up to be like nine?
+
+[7:07] Like three, like two o'clock, three o'clock? Alright. So at two o'clock, three o'clock, you know. I wish that everyone could be on the air, so you can call me back. I could hear you gasping for breath while you tell me how not humid it is in the outer banks up there.
+
+[7:20] Okay. Yeah. Super. I mean, look, uh like I say, I've been there and maybe like I happen to be there on the only summer that is so hot and humid that you want to die. In fact, like even the green flies, which suck half of your blood in the thirty seconds that you're outside, if you're out near sunset, we're too tired and lazy to come kill me.
+
+[7:40] But uh I somehow doubt that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Anyway. I'll check back with you.
+
+[7:45] Yeah. You have a lot of questions to answer. Yeah, well, I just answered Ross McGuire's question on uh do we still exist? And happily for us we still we still do exist. Okay.
+
+[7:53] So uh by the way, I will re-give you the number in case someone just realized that we are live again. 718 497-2128. That's 718497-2128. But I do have a lot of questions that came in in the interim while we were away. So I'll go right to it.
+
+[8:07] Howard writes in with a question about papayas. I have a question about papayas. I've been eating a lot of papaya lately, which I can't get down with you on this because Howard, because I uh some reason papaya is the one of the fruits that I haven't learned to love. I just I can't it's something about it that's not not me. I love love like like an un unripe papaya as a crunchy element and a salad, things like that, but I haven't uh figured out how to love I don't hate 'em, but I haven't figured out how to love a ripe papaya.
+
+[8:34] What about you, Nastasha? Yeah, I feel the same. But I do I do like the fact that they're good for stomach uh ailments. So well, okay. I mean, you know how I feel about taking things for uh uh food as medicine, you know how I feel about it.
+
+[8:47] But maybe it works, who knows? God only knows, I certainly don't. Okay. I've been eating a lot of papaya lately, and usually uh this is Howard, by the way, not me. And usually I peel and cut up the whole fruit and store it in the fridge.
+
+[8:57] I've noticed that when I get to the bottom of my container, there's always a papaya jelly, presumably made from the papaya juices. Do you know what's going on there? Is there any way this phenomenon can be put to good use, i.e., in a cake, a jello, etc.? Alright, Howard. Because I don't eat a lot of papayas, I didn't have a lot of experience with this, so I had to do myself some research.
+
+[9:15] My first uh thing, you know, theory was you know, that one of the main things in uh papaya that is useful is a a protein, uh protein breaking down enzyme, a protease called papaye, which is used as a meat tenderizer. Now, usually when you break down proteins, um what what happens is is they break gels. You break proteins down and they lose their strength. Except in certain situations, you can partially break down a protein and as actually cause it to gel. And actually, papayene is used in certain tests for that for gelling soy, soy proteins.
+
+[9:46] So uh at first I thought maybe that was what's going on, but then I was like, nah, there's not that much protein in the papaya, and I don't really know how that would work. Then I was thinking perhaps you were getting a low temperature yeast or bacteria in there, and then I was like, meh, no. But then I came across an article that you are going to enjoy called Stability Studies of Papaya pectinac uh pectin esterase. Alright. It is a known fact in uh that papaya has extremely active pectinesterase enzyme in it.
+
+[10:12] I only known about I'd only known about the protein breaking down enzyme, the the papayaine, but and to Nastasha's point, a lot of people take papaya because of it has lots of bioactive molecules in it, more than many fruits, okay? And pectinesterase is a is and a lot of fruits have it, but I guess not in the same quantity and not the same activity. What pectinesterase does is actually joins pectins together, making them bigger, and uh actually, does it do that? No. Does it join them?
+
+[10:38] No, it just strengthens them. I don't think it actually polymerizes them. Ah, who knows? I don't know. But it makes them stronger.
+
+[10:43] And uh what happens is is that um papaya can self-gel based on the activity of this pectin pectinesterase once the uh once the juice has been released from it. I will redo the first paragraph of this. Papaya pectinesterase is a pectic enzyme which has important influence on the quality and stability of processed papaya products. A short period after papaya is pulped into puree, a gel is formed. This gel formation has been attributed to the enzymatic action of pectinesterase by uh Yamamoto and Inue in 1963.
+
+[11:10] Pectinesterase is also of great concern to the citrus industry since it has definitely been established that it can cause clarification of citrus juices and gelation of concentrates, which is interesting to me. I've never thought of using it as a as a way to clarify. Of course, I have I I use the opposite enzyme. I use um I use a uh wait, shoot, pectinesterase. Anyway, yeah, I use I use one that breaks down, I use one that breaks down pectins uh to uh clarify things.
+
+[11:36] But anyway, so that seems to me to be your answer. I don't what it's basically doing is making a stronger pectin uh out of it, a pectin gel. So I don't know that you could use it in cake or jello, but maybe you can make up a pie of juice and have it gel on its own as as a good jelly. I don't know what the texture of uh of it is. But Howard, hopefully this answers your question, and it's very intriguing, something that I might uh study more.
+
+[11:57] Maybe I'll even learn to like papaya. What do you think, uh Nastasha? Maybe. Maybe if we tried a lot of papayas, we'd find one that we like. That's possible.
+
+[12:04] Try a couple hundred papayas. There were a couple down in Florida when we tried that, but you know, I just didn't even look at them. I didn't even bother. You know? You know what's another one?
+
+[12:12] You know what's another one? Here's one that that ticks me off. Guava, right? But people just say people just say guava. I mean, what the hell does that mean?
+
+[12:20] Like the different guavas taste so stupidly different that to just say guava, I mean, it doesn't really make any any sense. Because I'd never been a huge guava person as a fresh fruit. I've had lots of guava juices that I like, but I've you know, I have never been a huge kind of fresh guava person. But then the last two times we visited Florida a taste, we had really kind of interesting guavas, right? Yeah.
+
+[12:42] But like unrelated in taste to each other, right? I mean, some were very acidic, like the cast that we had, some were kind of you know, so lacking in acidity that I found them kind of sweet and insipid. I really hate fruit that just has sweet with no acidity. Do you know what I mean, don't you? Yes, I know.
+
+[12:56] I know you do. Oh, I detest it. Hate it. I would much rather yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah.
+
+[13:02] I mean I'm that guy walking around eating the unripe berries off of trees and uh hoping I don't die. I don't actually do that. I only do it if I know what the berries are. And getting poison ivy. Getting poison ivy, yes, yes.
+
+[13:13] That's a story for story for later. Okay. Uh Aaron Oster, uh, formerly a salumeria, where is he now? Oh gosh, I don't remember. Another salumi place.
+
+[13:21] Good job, good job. Good job remembering. Anyway, Aaron Oster writes in about round cambros and coffee. I hope all's well. I was seeing you the other day.
+
+[13:28] I'm writing because I have a question for Dave, I think only he can answer, although it's probably not true. Uh is there any advantage for making ice coffee via the 12 to 16 hour steep method in a round cambro versus a square one? A cambro, for all of these who don't use cambros, is basically just either square or round plastic food containers that have marks of like quartz and liters on the side, and they're very common in professional kitchens. Uh, you know, we typically use the four, the seven, and the twenty-two-liter, uh 22 quart cambros uh the most. Uh but they, you know, that's what that's what he's talking about.
+
+[13:58] Anyway, uh wants to know whether there's a difference in using the round or the square. The steep method is the here's the steep method method he uses. Add ground coffee to room temperature, uh add ground coffee to room temperature water stir uh and let it sit overnight at room temperature. Next morning filter the coffee through a super fine mesh, and what you're left with is super rich in deep coffee with all the top notes of the coffee and supposedly less bitterness. This is a study that's been, this is by the way, a type of coffee that's become extremely popular uh over the past you know several years, and a lot of really high powered people are uh investigating it.
+
+[14:26] I know Harold McGee is investigating it, Don Lee is investigating, a bunch of people are investigating it. Uh you want all of the recipes, they all seem to say that they use circular containers. So he's wondering whether the circular versus the round makes a difference. I don't think that it makes a difference in terms of the steep, but I haven't done it myself, so I don't know whether or not the actual filtration becomes uh more or less difficult. And I'll give you a story.
+
+[14:47] When we're using an enzyme to break down the pectin in juices like apple juice and then letting it set down in the bottom of the uh container, what ends up happening is we always use round containers because when you pick up the container and move it to start, you know, decanting the clearer stuff with that doesn't have the particles off of the top. If you have a square container and you pick it up, the corners start mixing the fluid as you turn it. It acts almost like a mixer because the fluid's in a square shape, and as you turn it, right, the corners kind of start moving the fluid. Whereas if you use a round container and pick it up, you can pick it up and spin it, and basically you don't end up stirring the product. You move it very little.
+
+[15:27] So the grounds don't get kicked up, the the particles don't get kicked up off of the bottom. So if you're getting an advantage with this coffee in terms of your filtration by being able to dump relatively clear stuff off of the top before all the particles go into your fine mesh strainer, right, if that's going to increase your filtration efficiently, or perhaps even change the taste of it, right? Then I would definitely recommend going round. Uh, but if you're, you know, stirring it right before you're gonna pour it anyway, right? You haven't let it settle for a long time, and you're not extremely careful to just decant just the top liquid off the top before you start, then I would say it doesn't matter whether it's square around.
+
+[15:59] I don't think it's gonna actually make a difference in terms of how it infuses. It's just a question of how you're gonna pour the liquid off the top. That makes sense. What do you think, Nastasha? Yeah, that makes sense.
+
+[16:12] All right. Now, I have many more questions, but I'm gonna go to my first commercial break and we'll come back and answer them. Calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. And you'll let's feel it, but confusion.
+
+[16:48] And the world around is coming down. We don't have to be. Yeah. Were you dancing? Oh, you yeah, I was, you know, feet pounding, fist pumping.
+
+[17:40] Was that was that Jack or was that you, Nastash who picked that? No, no, I that was Jack. Nah, nice. Good call. We should let him pick it always.
+
+[17:46] Anyway. Chris Anderson writes in with a vacuum sealing question. Hey Dave, I have a mini pack 31 uh, I guess MVs. He just writes 31X chamber uh vacuum sealer with gas flush. Wow, that's nice.
+
+[17:56] Uh the 31, by the way, is the small unit, which uh, you know, I'm not saying that I'd like to get one for free, but I'd love to get one for free. It's uh I think it's the best uh unit of that size that's available right now because it's very compact, but it has a much larger chamber size uh for its size than the equivalent other small, small units that I've had. I think it's like the best home vacuum unit. Uh you know, or small, small commercial. I mean most restaurants I think would um kind of outgrow it pretty quickly because of its limited size, but for you know, a house it would be perfect hint hint, right, Nastasha?
+
+[18:29] Yeah. Yeah. Uh anyway, uh what gas flush means, by the way, is that um after you seal a vacuum on it, you pull a vacuum on it and you seal it, uh the air comes back in. If you have gas flush, you can fill that bag with an inert gas, usually nitrogen or depending on what you're doing, CO2, whatever, mix different mixes of gas. Uh you know, if you're doing fish and you want to be uh, you know, you want to really ruin everybody, you can put carbon monoxide in there to make it keep red, or if you want to do that to meet, if you want to rip off your customer, you can do that too.
+
+[18:58] Anyway, uh don't do that. Um so but with the gas flush, you can do that, and the cool thing is you can then package things like potato chips, and they don't get crushed because you know, there's extra uh gas in there, but it's totally dry gas. So you're not it's not gonna go stale, it's not gonna oxidize. I mean, it's it's good stuff. Uh anyway, uh I have some uh he has some bulk flour and a few other powder like ingredients that he wants to vacuum seal to prevent oxidation.
+
+[19:24] Uh his concern is that fine particles are going to disperse throughout the chamber, either during the vacuum or during the nitrogen back backfill. Any tips for preventing this? Well, uh you're not gonna have a problem with the powder during the vacuum cycle. I've never uh the only thing I've had even minor problems with was some spray-dried vinegar powder, which is extremely fine and really wants to fly all over the room. Like you can't if you pour it into a container, it like you know, it comes out of the container and chokes you, you know.
+
+[19:50] Uh like uh it's cra crazy stuff. And I vacuum sealed that with only minimal kind of dust issues, uh like hardly any problems uh at all because the vacuum isn't getting like first of all, the the bag is there, the vacuum isn't sucking directly out of the bag, it's sucking uh you know through a hole, which then is dispersed over the entire chamber. So you get very little actual movement of uh particles out of the bag, and it hasn't been in my experience a problem. Here's where the problem happens. When you take a very fine powder and you vacuum it on a high vacuum, uh when you when you let the air back in, the um the stuff gets squashed really flat.
+
+[20:27] Uh and so you can have caking and pelleting problems with the powder, like it forms clumps when you uncut the bag to use it later. And that's been my main problem uh with things like uh transglutaminase or with the vinegar powder is that I get clumping after I've vacuumed. Now, I'm trying to think of a decent way to because what happens when you do a gas flush is the gas comes in via like depending on your unit, like one, two, or three little tubes that are in the bag, and they come in with enough force to really kind of like I've had bags that weren't like uh you know held on properly rocket across the machine uh and you know spray their contents everywhere. So you're gonna want to, and I don't know whether you're gonna be able to get around uh this problem. What I would do is because you need it to go in the bag and not just fill the entire chamber, right?
+
+[21:14] You need the gas to go directly in the bag. You could try to put little diffusers over the front of the gas jets, turn the flow way down and the pressure way down so that you don't get a lot of spray. But you might have a problem doing um doing a gas flush. Now that said, you're only gonna need a tiny bit of gas in there to prevent it from compacting and therefore causing clumps. So you might not need that much gas, but you're definitely gonna need to put uh kind of diffuser plates on it or it's gonna kind of fire across and gonna cause uh problems.
+
+[21:47] Um but you're not gonna have a problem if you don't use any any gas flush on it. He writes on a related note, do you have any experience oh my iPad just turned off? Uh on a related note, do you have any experience with oxygen absorbers that are sold in little packets like desiccants? Do they actually work and are they food safe? All right, uh a couple.
+
+[22:05] I don't have he's talking about oxygen scavengers that act like physically prevent oxidation by being in the package and just having a stronger affinity for the oxygen than your food does. And uh they I don't know whether the particular ones you're looking at are food safe. I've never used them, but they clearly definitely make food safe uh oxygen um, you know, scavenging packets. And I will tell you a story that I probably shouldn't tell you because it was told to me by someone who must have had too much to drink who works for an oxygen scavenging package uh company uh a couple of years ago. Um when I say a couple like eight years ago.
+
+[22:38] They once uh were doing an oxygen scavenging uh package, right? A little paper insert that's that sucked up oxygen for a major candy manufacturer that worked with peanut butter. Let's say Reese's peanut butter cups. Let's just say they were that. I'm not saying they were, but let's just say it was that.
+
+[22:56] Uh and what happened was is they would put these things in to prevent the peanut butter from going rancid, and nobody liked the taste of these Reese's peanut butter cups because uh, you know, they just didn't taste right. You know, they tasted not like Reese's peanut butter cups. And what it turns out is is that the characteristic taste of a Reese's peanut butter cup is due to a certain amount of rancidity in the peanut butter. And so, you know, one person's rancid is another person's Reesus. Now, y I love Reesus peanut butter cups, and I'm sure a lot of uh you out there do as well.
+
+[23:34] You wouldn't necessarily love it if I told you that what you were liking is rancid peanut butter because rancid has a negative connotation. However, um, you know, if you didn't know it was rancid and you just said there was there was like some selective oxidation and aging of the peanut butter to make delicious Reese's peanut butter cups, maybe you'd like it better, but the term rancid is so loaded that uh that has a problem. So, anyway, long story short, they didn't use the oxygen scavenging packaging in the Reese's peanut butter cups anymore because people didn't like it. Um so yes, they are food safe. No, I don't have any uh experience with them.
+
+[24:10] Um from Anonymous. Hello, Anonymous, about sealing vegetables. I recently got an immersion circulator and I'm cooking a lot of vegetables and they're floating to the top. Is there any way to safely keep vegetables under the water so I can get the most out of my machine? I'm assuming uh they mean the vacuum machine, because when you're cooking uh I I don't know ex here's the problem.
+
+[24:30] When you take a vegetable and you put it in a vacuum bag, or even if you try to do it in a Ziploc or whatever, um vegetables have a lot of air on the inside of them naturally, right? So things like carrots, they float in water because there's air. What happens when you seal them in a bag and then cook them and heat them, the air that's in them expands and escapes and inflates the bag. And then the bag floats to the top and does two things. One, it makes it very difficult to have it cook uh evenly because the top of the bag's out of the water and it doesn't get hot.
+
+[24:58] Uh and they also take up a lot of space and they're ungainly on you know, they're pain their pain in the butt. So there's a couple things you can do. If you have a vacuum machine, I recommend sucking a hard, hardcore vacuum on those things. Super hardcore vacuum. If you suck a really hardcore vacuum on it, you might be able to get an and when I say that means whatever the full vacuum is plus an extra 30 seconds, you'll be able to get enough of the air out to uh get them to s sink down to the bottom and stay somewhat near the bottom.
+
+[25:26] They're still going to inflate a little bit when they get really hot. Um another technique you can use, and by the way, when you suck that kind of a hardcore vacuum on it, also any flavor you put into the bag, whether it be oil or with carrots, something like orange juice, will get injected further into the carrot and you'll get more of that flavor uh transfer. Another thing you can do, and this is from Hervé Molivaire, our friend at the French Culinary Institute, is you can take some stainless steel knives and throw them in, you know, or you know, butter knives, uh and throw that that because they're not sharp, uh or s you know, and they're heavier than spoons, and uh throw them into the bag and seal them with the bag and that'll drop your thing to the bottom like a stone, even though it's filling with air if you have enough knives, and he does that all the time. If you don't want it in with your vegetables, you can even seal the knives in like a bottom section of your bag and then seal uh the vegetables on top of it so the knives aren't directly touching. And he does this also when he's wrapping um things like um like uh when we do uh like roulades of meat and we hand roll them in in uh plastic wrap and drop them, those rolls sometimes have a tendency to float.
+
+[26:23] So what he'll do is he'll take uh the roll and he'll roll it in plastic wrap, and then he'll take like five, six butter knives, and depending on the size of the item, and then he'll put those and then he'll roll another layer of plastic wrap around that and around the knives, and bang, those things drop right to the bottom. So it's a really good solution. When you're um but that means that's basically what I recommend. You gotta weigh the thing down. Even with a very high seal on something, uh you're still gonna get some air coming out of the bag at high temperatures, and and you have to cook vegetables at high temperatures, 85 Celsius and above.
+
+[26:56] So it it really it it's a tough problem, but not insurmountable. So you know. Also, you have to cook vegetables if you don't add a lot of liquid to the bag, which you're probably not because otherwise, why are you cooking them in a vacuum bag anyway? Uh you're you know, you're probably trying to concentrate the flavor of the of the vegetable and/or add another one. You have to cook it for a lot longer because uh it takes longer for the um the vegetable to break down even at high temperature in the absence of excess water.
+
+[27:22] Uh okay, so uh Victoria Sen writes in about dehydrated fruit sheets. Hi, Nastashian Dave. I'm planning on making sheets of dehydrated fruits, spices, and seeds. I'd like it not to be uh fruit leather, but to be crispy. I think the recipe I have is going to change the colors.
+
+[27:36] I want to keep the color of the mixes, but also have it uh dehydrated so it's flexible when it's baked, but then shaped and gets hard, similar to a fortune cookie. The base uh that she's using is similar to a twel base, but the problem is the color changes to a dark brown. Is there a recipe or ingredient I can use to keep the color of these mixes after they're dehydrated or baked yet still maintain a crispy textured end product, thanks Victoria? Okay. Uh here's the main problem.
+
+[28:02] Fruit leathers are done at a low temperature, and they always have uh a lot of sugar in them that haven't had all the water driven off because they're done at low temperature. That is why they are always flexible. Okay. The higher temperature products you're doing their twil batters, right, are based on driving off the uh liquid and almost you know turning the sugar into you know, almost like caramelizing the sugar, which is why they're brown, right? Uh along with, you know, if there's any other things that turn brown in it, like milk solids and whatever.
+
+[28:32] And when they are heated, you're basically melting it, and then you can form it, and then you let it cool and it gets hard again, right? That's how fortune cookies work. But that's why they turn brown. So uh one thing I would do uh to change it and still have it be crispy is switch from sugar to isomalt. If you use isomalt, isomalt browns a lot less uh than sugar when it gets cooked up uh to those high higher temperatures.
+
+[28:56] I'd also say you could switch to a non-tual, like almost like uh some of these dehydrated maltodextrin things. Problem is they might not be as flexible when they when they when they dry down. Um what I would like you to do is send me the actual recipe you're using, because I looked up some uh there are some crunchy fruit um fruit sheet recipes out there uh based on you know fruit, isomalt, and maltodextrin. Uh but I don't know exactly the recipe you're using, so I don't I can't really troubleshoot it. But my guess is is that your unf your flexible recipes that don't get too hard aren't cooked to a high enough temperature, and your other ones you're getting browning of the sugar from cooking at a high temperature, and you might be able to solve it by moving to an isomalt, although it will make it less sweet.
+
+[29:41] Uh anyway, so hopefully that helps. And uh give us a call, uh give us uh an email with the recipe you're using, and maybe we can help you even more. Uh in a similar vein, Mike writes in and says, Hello, uh, has cooking issues been taken off the air? No, I have not been uh taking off the air. He misses it.
+
+[29:55] We appreciate that. We're back, don't worry. My question is, how can I help keeping my homemade marshmallows from sticking together after I've cut them and cover them with cornstarch and powdered sugar? He uses a one-to-one ratio of cornstarch and powdered sugar to cover the marshmallows after they're set. Uh he's been using a recipe that he found uh online, and I I wish I could I had it with me.
+
+[30:15] Some reason when I pasted it in the the URL didn't show up, or I'd tell you whose recipe he used. Uh I've increased the size of the recipe 30% to fill a half sheet pen, and I always use a scale to measure, uh, thereby saying he doesn't think it's a problem with the recipe. Do we have any uh help? Okay, the recipe that uh he's following online, which I apologize I don't have the s uh site for because it didn't show up on my on my iPad, um, uses uh as you know most of these do, and it's an egg white and gelatin mixture with uh sugar that you cook up, you know, to candy stage and then you you beat it in the gelatin, the egg white, the sugar, it sets up uh as a foam and then it's cut and or dolloped or whatever, and then put into a cornstarch and sugar uh mixture. Now, if you're if your marshmallows are too wet, right, and you need more structure, you can up the gelatin one, you can, or you can uh increase the cooking temperature of the sugar to a certain point, right?
+
+[31:06] But if you like the texture that you're getting and all you want to do is make it less sticky, right, then what you need to do is work on the coating problem. Now, all marshmallows are too uh syrupy on the inside, really, you know, too um sticky on the inside, uh, you know, to have them not stick if you're actually gonna touch the inside of a marshmallow. Otherwise, it would be the same as the marshmallows that are in, you know, cereal boxes, which are 100% desiccated, right? Although I like those. Do you like those, Nastasha?
+
+[31:32] Yes. Yeah, yeah, me too. Uh I mean they're not really marshmallows. And by the way, I mean, they kind of are. I mean, they're marshmallow-like things, but they're kind of more like little meringue with marshmallow tasting.
+
+[31:43] But some I got addicted to those suckers when I was a kid. And I once called one of those uh cereal companies to see whether I could buy just the marshmallows for a project I was working on. I was trying to make the world's first meat-based breakfast cereal with uh pork rinds. It was called Piggles and Beanies. It was it was sweetened uh pork rinds with uh little pork rind pieces with with bean-shaped marshmallows.
+
+[32:03] And this was, you know, back, you know, I don't know, high school or college or something like that, you know, nineties, early nineties. And uh and uh they would not ship me uh or or let me buy any marshmallows from them. This is before I had enough technical knowledge to do it on my own. Isn't that mean? It's really mean.
+
+[32:18] So mean. I was like, listen, I'll choose whatever the closest marshmallow you have in your like line of like cereal marshmallows to a kidney bean shaped. And uh, you know, this is before I even knew how to make my own pork rinds. I mean, I'm literally like either in college or like right around, you know what I mean? Is like they could have helped me out a little bit.
+
+[32:42] I used to save all the the marshmallows to last in the milk so I could enjoy them. But did you ever like open the box and then break it down into marshmallows and not marshmallows? No, no, no, no, no. Because it was a sandwich for the family, the whole cereal. Oh, well, you know what though, you uh how many people in the family there?
+
+[32:58] Five? Five. Five? They couldn't have bought you your own box of cereal. I mean, look.
+
+[33:06] Okay, okay, look, here's my point. My point is this you have people in the family, they're gonna eat the cereal anyway, right? Right? So if you're gonna eat the cereal anyway, there's gonna be another box of cereal in a week anyway, right? Yeah.
+
+[33:18] Right? So if the total quantity of cereal eaten is the same over a six month period, what does it matter whether each person has their own box or not? It's not like the stuff goes bad in a s in in in a short amount of time. It's not like you're gonna be able to not finish that box of blueberry within like, you know, the six months that it stays good. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
+
+[33:37] Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, in your next life you can bring up that argument. See, that's what I'm good for, Nastasha. I'm good for that kind of logical based argument. That's that's what I'm good at. Okay.
+
+[33:46] So back to the marshmallow problem. Marshmallows are sticky on the inside. So what they are is a problem in control dehydration. You want to just have the outside be dry so they don't stick together. The problem with using a one-to-one powdered sugar and uh cornstarch mixture, and and I read the the the person's recipe online, and the reason they use a mixture is they thought the cornstarch by itself was too chalky on the outside, especially because it's there in a large quantity, right?
+
+[34:12] But the problem with powdered sugar is that powdered sugar is uh gonna suck up moisture from the atmosphere and from the marshmallow, and it's gonna be get tacky on the outside. I just there's no way around it. Like short term it's gonna work, but long term it's gonna cause problems with things getting sticky. That is my feeling. Now, you could try it with uh a straight up cornstarch, but then you might think it's too chalky.
+
+[34:33] I did some research on industrial marshmallow production, uh, Mike, and I have the answer for you. Here's what you're gonna do the next time. I have not tested this, but I am so confident that I'm gonna tell you on the air that this is gonna work because I felt so confident that I uh I can't in fact I might make it sometime soon. Here's what you do you take the marshmallows, right? And you make sure you follow all the recipes.
+
+[34:55] Like another way marshmallows can go bad is if you don't beat them until they're cool, all that, you know, all that nonsense, right? Whatever. Whatever the recipe says, just do it. If because if the recipe works, the recipe probably works. Now, instead of putting it into a mixture of cornstarch and sugar, right?
+
+[35:08] Like a day before you do it, or like a couple hours before you know, day before you do it, bake out some cornstarch in the oven to make sure it's really dry, seal it in quart containers and let it cool down. Right? Now you have dry cornstarch. Take your uh marshmallows, right, and then dust them into pure um into pure powdered sugar, right? Now shake off the extra powdered sugar dust.
+
+[35:30] Now throw them into cornstarch and then let them sit there with the cornstarch on them, right, for like four or five hours up to a day, depending on how much you want to dehydrate the mar the outside layer of the marshmallow. Now, what you're doing is is you're letting the sugar still be the taste thing on the outside, but you're using the cornstarch as a desiccant to desiccate the outside of the marshmallow a little bit so they won't be tacky, but you're not gonna pick up as much cornstarch into the marshmallow itself proper because it already has that protective layer of powder sugar. Huh? Huh? Huh?
+
+[36:03] What do you think? That's good. Apparently that's how the big folks do it. You know, what they do is they they they uh basically do it all under pressure and eject the marshmallow from uh from a tube, it expands automatically, is cut, dropped into powdered sugar, and then uh put into a cornstarch mixture to dehydrate as as it comes out. So I'm thinking that that mic is the way to get your marshmallow problem solved.
+
+[36:28] Uh okay. Paul, hey, should we do one more commercial break? Yeah, we can do a break. All right, one more commercial break. Call in all your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[36:36] That's 784972128 cooking issues. And don't crap. Yo folks mad on the span. Bye and bye. Just move on up.
+
+[37:08] Though you may find from time to time complication. Bite the lip. And take the trip. But there may be let's grow ahead and you cannot slip. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[37:45] Tune in to Hot Grease every Monday at 3.30 p.m. Hot Grease strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward-thinking schools of culinary thought to the minds and kitchens of everyday folk. So each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum of food enthusiasts. From internationally renowned culinary masters to moms on a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 3 30 p.m.
+
+[38:12] Hot Grease on the Heritage Radio Network. Hey, welcome back. Hey Jack, that was uh move on up. That's Curtis Mayfield, right? Yeah, move on up, Curtis Mayfield.
+
+[38:25] Good tune. And I like the mixture of the Curtis Mayfield with the hot grease. The song seems to work with the hot grease, right? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[38:32] And I'll tell you something else. I don't care whether you're a mom on a budget or not. Like pick like like pleasing your kids, they are the pickiest little uh pickiest little critics, aren't they? Pain's in that's a that's a tough problem. Anyway, back to the questions.
+
+[38:44] Nastash, are you still with us? Yeah. Awesome. Uh we got a question from Paul K uh earlier today. This is the last question in that we got.
+
+[38:53] Uh and it's not really a question so much as a comment. Uh it's kind of funny. Uh hi, Nastasha. I thought I'd bring this article about human-derived gelatin to Dave's attention, perhaps for the radio show. I'd like to hear his thoughts.
+
+[39:03] Uh and basically what it is, it's a it's a new article called New Strategy for Expression of Recombinant uh hydroxylated human-derived gelatin. Um just came out. Uh so basically it's it's they what they do is they take uh the our genes, human genes for producing uh gelatin, you know, collagen, I guess, or gelatin, and they uh inject it into a yeast. Uh, you know, they they put it into a yeast, and then they grow the yeast, and the yeast then just makes a hyperabundance of uh you know, human-style gelatin, but you know, obviously it hasn't come out of a human. No humans were killed for the gelatin.
+
+[39:39] Uh, you know, anyway. So it's like that's that's what they're doing. Uh I'd like to hear his thoughts. My first thought is if recombinant technology allows greater quality control, why not use animal gene derived recommon gelatin to avoid the controversy and creepiness. I think the allergy thing is a bit of a red herring.
+
+[39:53] So the reason uh the the point here is that the reason they're using human-derived gelatin for this is they're trying to think of uh they're they're now looking at food applications for it, but originally this is for things like gel caps for medicine, and the idea being that there is less poly uh less of a possibility of a human um immune response to gelatin that's derived from human tissue than from um then from animal tissue. I think it's probably a red herring. I think that if it's actually a pure gelatin protein, you know, you know, pure gelatin, that it's not gonna have a lot of other extraneous stuff on it that I I mean maybe there's a difference, but maybe there's not. I haven't read any studies on how many people are allergic to gelatin. Maybe there's a lot, but I don't know.
+
+[40:39] Uh I I haven't really uh I didn't really have the the chance to look into it. Um but the idea that we can have because gelatin is is freaking fantastic, right? And there's a whole uh there's a whole group of people, vegetarians, uh you know, who won't eat gelatin. So you know whether like the idea of a recombinant gelatin, whether it be you know bovine derived or human derived, uh, you know, the strain of it, uh I think would be awesome because there's certain things that gelatin does better than anything else. Marshmallows, for instance.
+
+[41:10] Now you can use carrageenin, uh mixture of carragenin and uh you know uh locust bean and or other things gum to produce a marshmallow. Uh but gelatin is really, really good. Also for jello. Gelatin is really, really good. And now can you approximate jello using things like carragenin?
+
+[41:29] Yeah. But you know you know is gelat gelatin is still kind of the reigning monarch of uh taste in you know hydrocolloids. Like we maybe it's because it's traditional and has been for so long that we just grew up loving it. But it's um it's good stuff. So if they could make one uh that was price competitive uh and also had very consistent quality 'cause another problem with uh regular gelatin is it's of differing qualities depending on the source where it was derived from how basically hydrolyzed, how broken down the proteins are.
+
+[42:01] And that's why you have different bloom strengths of gelatin, because they're a naturally derived product, and gelatin from a fish doesn't work the same as gelatin from a you know a pig skin or you know, animal you know, cow bones or whatever. So they're all different. And the processing uh makes them all different. And so this is you know gives the possibility of having a very consistent uh gelatin product where no animals are harmed. And I think it'd be interesting.
+
+[42:26] A real question is, would a vegan use it? What do you think, Nastasha? Would a vegan use it? I mean, like question is like what is like why like what in other words, like what would be the if you were a vegan, would you use it? I mean, I would think you could, but I don't I don't know, right?
+
+[42:41] What do you think? I don't know. I really don't know. I don't I can't think like a vegan, you know. I think that's that's the the issue.
+
+[42:48] Yeah. Uh anyway, I'd like to hear from some vegans and see whether or not they would be willing to use uh, you know, so because you wouldn't have to harm the animal to get the the DNA for it, right? You could just take a blood sample from a human or from whatever, get the gene, uh, you know, and do it. I mean, I think that um be interesting problem. I don't know.
+
+[43:09] Um but uh definitely I think has a lot more commercial application than the poop derived meat analog. Uh I knew you were gonna go there. Well, didn't we bring this up on the radio a couple weeks ago? Somebody asked about it. Didn't we talk about it?
+
+[43:24] You didn't talk about it. I'm pretty sure you didn't talk about it. At least and I've done every show with you. We didn't talk about the well, it was a big thing on the internet, so I'm sure a lot of you guys have uh heard about this. Uh his crew in Japan was recycling sewage into uh meat analogs, and uh people are making much hay out of it on the internet, but I don't really know enough to comment other than it's fun to say poop meat, right?
+
+[43:48] I mean uh okay. So uh as some of you might know, um I do uh a you know a a little thing for eater, like you know, once every week or once every two weeks or something uh and the recently they've had uh some they've started getting chefs to ask me some questions but Nastasha I don't know at this point whether they're gonna let me answer the rest of Michael Iskonis's the Yes they they want to know they wanted to know today when you're gonna answer the rest but that's for after the show. But the question is should I just answer one now online and then and then and then because there's really only one that I really want to answer more than the ones I've already answered. I could just answer that one now and and then talk to Michael about it and then do a new chef for for them. What do you think?
+
+[44:29] I think they're kind of waiting for the the answers to be answered online. Alright so I'm gonna answer Michael Iskonus's questions on malt which I think are very very interesting. So you take barley. I'll talk about it a little bit now and then I'll write about it. You take barley uh and you grow it you germinate it right and then you kill the uh you kill the growing uh germ the kill the growing sprout on the inside before it pops out of the actual barley and what you're doing there is activating all of the enzymes the alpha and beta amylases being the primary ones and and those enzymes then you when you kill it you gotta make sure that you kill it in such a way that you leave the enzymes in there.
+
+[45:16] And then what you do is you grind it up and you steep it you know at different temperatures and the temperature of the mash that you do the way you steep it is what makes different kind of beers different along with how the malt is made and how it's kilned and how you know what flavors are derived there. But anyway, it's the active enzymes in it that uh allow you to convert the starch from barley, or if you're you know adding other things to it like rice or whatever, that allow you to convert that starch to alcohol, right? Uh sorry, to sugar, which then you use east yeast to convert to alcohol. So the primary function of malt is uh the function of it is to produce these enzymes that can break break starch into sugar. Uh now how the malt is treated it is makes it widely diff, you know, different in how much enzyme there is and also in the flavor of the malt itself.
+
+[46:07] It's a really tricky process. And and m most beer people, many beer people I used to do all grain, meaning I don't I used all my own grains and everything, but very few people make their own malt because it's uh I don't know why, very few people do it. Uh so malt is a very interesting subject. Now, when most people are baking with malt, they're either using uh like diastatic malt, which they're adding to uh bakery products, and what that is is malt that still has the active uh stuff in it, but it still has the active enzymes in it, and they do that to break some extra starch into sugars for yeast as a yeast food or a bacteria food in a starter. Um but when you when I say malt to someone as an ingredient, what I'm thinking of is dry malt extract.
+
+[46:49] And what that is is you take the malt and you then uh convert all the starch to sugar using it with all the great flavors of malt. Like think Malta, the beverage malta, malt beverage, like that malty flavor, and then uh they before they let it ferment, they dry it out into a powder. And so if you're if you're doing what's called extract brewing, you take dry malt extract or still a liquid version of that extract, and they have amazing tastes. Malt tastes amazing. Uh and that powder is an incredible, incredible ingredient.
+
+[47:20] Uh, which, you know, you can use not just to make beer, but you can use it as a sweetening multi-agent in things that's great in mashed potatoes. Like I I've all used to make malt mashed potatoes all the time, not with like the malted milk ball stuff, but with dry malt extract direct from a brewing shop. Uh, and you can get these if you have a homebrew shop anywhere. Our Whole Foods here in New York City and Manhattan and Lower Manhattan uh Bowery has dry malt extract, but it's a fantastic ingredient. So I'll write a little more and probably a little less stream of consciously uh consciousness uh about malt when I answer Michael Scottness's other questions.
+
+[47:50] Uh we we will be back next week. We hope not to have another three-week period where I'm flying around like a lunatic from place to place, and we apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused. Cooking issues vision all you did. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[48:24] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Got me on this corner.
+
+[48:49] Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, free pizza by Roberta, July 23rd. But twick block party, block party, it's a party in the Legendary Mad Dog Toast though. Photo Booth by Ryan Slack. Waterworld closed by Chimeradactyl, Mary Meyer, or Mogart! Duck Killer asphalt resistant genes.
+
+[49:16] All kinds of food for your face. Sweet soda pie. PA Ricurda's Bakes. Heritage Food Foods. Orancini Eating Contest by the Orangini Brothers.
+
+[49:29] Live music by Alex Truchin. Florida Paper Twin. Dang Side. Another team Rose Pierre. Wild Yap.
+
+[49:37] MC Todd and Bo Breezy. Night Show. Yeah, yeah. Sponsored by Martin Greenfield Clother. Free Fitness Studio.
+
+[49:46] Heritage Radio Network. Free Williamsburg. Six point beer. Momo. Sushi Shack.
+
+[49:52] Beerbox USA. Planet of the Bates. Bushwick Block Party. It's a party in the street. All day long.
+
+[50:01] Finger on the Pole and City Winery are proud to present the Summer Barbecue Blowout Festival, August 6th, from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at City Winery, located at 155 Varrick Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire Mayonnaise, Van Dag, Momo Fuco Mo Bar, Imperial Number Nine, My Land, Mexico, Craft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, The Meatball Shop, and Dose Torres. Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, Pewter Magic, New Villager, Punches, Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ. VIP and general admission tickets are available at CityWinery.com.
+
+[50:39] Finger in the pole for City Wine, we'd like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Foods USA, New York Magazine, Rake of vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City, Sub Zero and Wolf. Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.fotpnyc.com. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. AMP goes local.
+
+[51:13] The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company, commonly known as the AMP, that grocery chain you've seen all your life, has glommed onto the concept of local and sustainable and has just introduced a new consortium of producers known as the Mid Atlantic Country Farms, from which they will source beef and poultry. The animals are antibiotic and hormone-free, raised on vegetarian feed. There is no mention of certified humane or animal welfare approved uh status, however. Maybe they haven't gotten that far in the marketing department. But what makes this of interest is that AMP supplies all AMP supermarkets, Pathmark, Food Emporium, Waldbaums, and Super Fresh.
+
+[51:48] These are not particularly high-end supermarkets, so this is good news for the average consumer. If you want to read more about this, you can go to the AMP website, which is www.apt.com slash pressroom. This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer.
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+[0:00] On the Heritage Radio Network in a few moments. Stick with us. Hey, we're cloud control. And you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009.
+
+[0:28] Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. The following program has been brought to you by Barter House Wines. For more information, visit www.thebarterhouse.com. Hello.
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+[1:01] Can't hear myself. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, coming with you every Tuesday live from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. Here in the studio today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, bringing the hammer to all of you that step out of line, although they never do, do they? No, they never do.
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+[1:16] No, it's crazy. Alright, call in all of your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, today's show brought to you by the Burger House, some of our favorite people in wine distribution. Something I'm sure all of our listeners know, but probably don't, is that um I'm extremely lazy, so I find it difficult to memorize the names of any kind of wines that I like, or you go into a store and you find a wine and you don't uh you know you don't really know what to get.
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+[1:43] All you need to do, seriously, is memorize the name of like five or ten distributors that you like that you know bring in uh interesting products, and then you can look on the bottom uh back of the bottles, find a distributor you enjoy, and uh odds are you might have a winner. Anyway, uh a little tip from me to you on how to buy wine when you don't know what you're doing. Alright, our first question comes in from Paul Peterson, who is a researcher at the Humane Society of the United States. I Googled him. Uh, and uh he had a comment on last week's uh gelatin uh issue where we we were talking last week about uh the possibility of using recombinant DNA technology to produce gelatin without having to kill a bunch of animals.
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+[2:19] And the reason to do this is because gelatin is awesome. Uh and it's also used in things like uh gel capsules, it has very a lot of very good properties. Uh gelatin's great. Anyway, uh he has a comment on it. He says um uh the whether or not a vegan would uh use the question is would a vegan use this?
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+[2:36] Uh and he says the answer he thinks is it depends on the individual. Uh there's a similar though much more vexing project uh to harvest meat cells from an animal and grow them in a bioreactor, thus to create meat without harming the animal, uh, with other potential side benefits like it might cause less pollution uh than conventional farming, etc. Uh and uh he points me to uh I forget the name of it, it's called like meatharvest.org or something like that, harvesting meat dot whatever. Anyway, uh, because for some reason, hey, iPad people, uh, figure out a reason why they the uh URLs get stripped out of my stuff when I put it on my iPad anyway. Uh there are some vegans who are fine with and prefer this technology, this artificial, well, this cultured meat technology, while others uh would abhor such a thing.
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+[3:18] Basically, uh Paul thinks it comes down to whether uh why one is truly vegan. What some simply want to create the least suffering, in which case they probably use the cultured meat, and some just uh detest animal products uh a priori and they would uh object to the technology. I think uh I basically agree. I would object to the technology because uh straight up I doubt that it would be delicious. I mean, unless you could literally cut culture the muscle uh exactly as it appears in my favorite piece of beef, you know what I mean?
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+[3:48] I doubt that I would like meat that's made in a bioreactor the same way that I like meat that's made on an animal. Do you know what I mean? It's like we think about it this way. Um how much of a difference is there between the most delicious piece of beef that you've ever had, right, and crap hole, you know, third rate beef that you get in a uh in you know, in like a low rent supermarket. There's a big difference, right?
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+[4:18] Mustafa, what do you think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Uh so I mean, my my point is is that you know, I'm always shooting for ultimate delicious on a product. And so, uh, and I think this is my problem with mo most meat substitutes in general, is that what they're substituting for is kind of the chewy texture of meat, right?
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+[4:39] And when I say that, I mean overcooked meat. They're usually shooting at overcooked meat, right? Kind of like, you know, tough, uh, you know, a little bit chewy. And then they try to substitute in meat-esque flavors, and by that I mean usually protein breakdown products. So you're putting in uh like nutritional yeasts, you're putting in uh broken down soy uh compounds, anything like uh compounds like soy sauce, things like that.
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+[5:01] Anything that are gonna contain um you know free amino acids that are gonna give some of that umami nature, and then also they typically substitute in some sort of browning or some sort of smoking to mimic uh those kind of flavors that we get out of meats. But really, these are kind of only the externalities of meat. You know, I mean, meat is so many other things. It's the different muscles, it's the way the grains are uh align, different muscles, it's the way the fat is placed within them, it's the particular characteristics of the fat based on what the animal was eating. It's it's many, many things.
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+[5:33] I mean the uh the the flavor of meat isn't some sort of monotonic thing that can be uh recreated in a uh bioreactor. Now I mean that said, I mean if it that I I'm gonna assume the technology could some point get so sophisticated that it could literally grow uh you know a a ribeye. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. I see uh perhaps some sort of actual meat meat analog that uh functions better than many meat replacers on the market today but I just don't see you know my most delicious um you know aged pea aged uh ribeye steak uh that you know that I cook sous vide and sear over like a f you know fiercely hot charcoal fire and then uh and then drizzle it with uh mull uh with uh you know my favorite uh Tuscan or Sicilian olive oil and sprinkle it with salt I just don't see that coming out of a bioreactor anytime soon. What about you, Nastasha?
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+[6:28] I agree. Yeah you're talking to the microphone your face towards the window I agree. Yeah there you go. She's only been doing the radio show for a year and a half folks don't don't mind her that she can't face into a microphone when she's talking. Anyway Paul has a question he says he was a uh curious whether I uh what experience I have with cooking Satan which is basically Satan's uh wheat uh wheat gluten that is then formed into a dough and is uh typically cooked in a liquid where it absorbs the flavor from the liquid uh and then is uh sliced and then either sauteed, fried, stewed, whatnot as a as a meat substitute.
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+[7:00] And it's a traditional meat substitute in uh in you know parts of Asia. Hasn't uh really caught on here to the extent that uh I think it should. Many people use it instead, like they're saying, well, Satan's a much better meat replacer than tofu. I say you're both wrong. Uh tofu is tofu and it's delicious and should be used like tofu is, and you shouldn't buy crappy supermarket tofu that's had all of its flavor leached out and it's been sitting there for a billion years in uh in a whole crap load of water.
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+[7:26] I think that stuff's you know vile and useless, except as a flavor carrier. And seitan, I think also needs to be explored for its own sort of properties instead of just being a straight up uh meat substitute. Uh anyway, Paul says, uh, do I have any preferred cooking method, boiling versus brazing? Uh I would add pressure cooking is a good uh cooking technique for it. Unfortunately, I have not uh and you also wants to know whether I've experimented with it cooking a sous-vid, i.e.
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+[7:48] in a vacuum bag. Uh uh I unfortunately haven't experimented with Ceyton in many, many years. I've only played with making it a couple of times, uh, and it was you know years before I really got into cooking sous- vide. It's an interesting idea. Uh I don't know that you get a benefit from uh cooking sous vide though, because you're cooking typically at a high uh temperature anyway.
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+[8:10] I don't know that you'd get a benefit from cooking the wheat gluten at a lower temperature uh below uh boiling point or substantially below boiling point. Uh I think you might get some textural benefits from, like I say, cooking in a pressure cooker because then you could get some expansion when you release the pressure. Um you might be able to get some infusion by going sous vide, but you can fuse anyway with the stock. The stock permeates the Ceyton as it's cooking. One advantage to cooking sous vide that I could think of off the top of my head is if you had a very expensive ingredient that you wanted to infuse into the Ceyton and cook it that way, you could cook it in a very, very small amount of uh liquid.
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+[8:43] So if you had some expensive flavor or something you didn't have very much of, you could probably bag the Ceyton in the thing uh and then cook it that way. But I would not use a high vacuum because then you're gonna be compressing it and just and uh altering and/or destroying the texture of the Satan. If you use a very high vacuum, it's gonna be dense and rubbery. So I would almost do it in a ziploc bag rather than sous vide. I would I probably would never do it uh sous vide.
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+[9:04] Uh and are there any other vegetarian proteins that benefit from sous vide? Uh again, if you you know you can compress things, uh, you know, get rid of the air cells in in things with sous vide, which might be uh, you know, to firm up tofu or whatnot, but that's really more of a water expelling issue. So I can't think off my head of any vegetarian proteins that would benefit from sous vide, other than possible textural changes and infusion uh techniques because uh the low temperature aspect of sous vide is not really necessary for vegetarian proteins. Anyone who thinks I'm a jerk and wants to call me out on that, please do, because I'd like to know some good applications. What do you think, Nastasha?
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+[9:38] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Into the microphone at time. Nice, nice.
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+[9:41] Okay. Ross McGuire from Dublin, Ireland writes in again about green vegetables. Ross says, I recently came across a Spanish vegetable uh stew type dish, minestra, made from fresh vegetables, artichoke, broad beans, w runner beans, and white asparagus thickened with flour, is a fantastic shade of green. From what I managed, the gr uh from what I managed to glean the artichoke when cooked in water changes to a strong Viridian green, nice call, Veridi. Only only an Irish dude could come out with like the awesome shade of green, right?
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+[10:08] Viridian green color, uh, along with the water, which is interesting, which is what gives the soup its strong pigmentation. Do you know what the cause of this color change is and how one might go about achieving it? Also, are there any other examples of that kind of natural color change which could be used to good effect in the kitchen? Cheers. Okay, uh cheer, cheers, Ross.
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+[10:25] Anyway, uh well, that's interesting. Uh as far as you know, I'm used to minestra is like soup in uh Italian, where it's the same word for soup as for as zupa. So you could use zippa, you can use minestra, I guess as opposed to like broto, which is more of a broth, right, Nastasha? Yeah. Okay.
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+[10:42] So uh I don't know of any uh Spanish recipe that goes by the name uh minestra, but this uh coming from an idiot who hasn't researched it. Uh but uh so I can't say it. But uh also uh you know you can make then let's just say minestra is a soup, you can make it from uh any sort of mix of anything you want. So we're so what we're dealing here with is a soup or stew of artichoke, broad bean, runner bean, and white asparagus that's then thickened with with uh flour. And it comes out uh green.
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+[11:11] Now, typically when you cook a green here, here's what happens with green things in general when you cook them, right? First of all, the interesting thing you say is that uh the water turns really green. Uh chlorophyll is not water soluble. So typically, right, and what what's happening is is uh the majority of chlorophyll is not gonna leach out into the water. And chlorophyll is what makes these things green, okay.
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+[11:32] So what what happens is if we the reason why chlorophyll is not soluble in water is that it's got this long kind of hydrocarbon chain that comes off off that's uh hydrophobic. It wants to be soluble in oil, which is why things like uh you know uh uh basil oil and and things like that are such nice bright green, because we can extract a lot of the chlorophyll into the oil because it's water soluble, uh oil soluble soluble rather. So here's what happens when you cook. You stick stuff in boiling water, if there's any acid, uh, and I guess also McGee says alkali can make it happen, you can uh break off uh that hydrocarbon chain, and now the the residual part, which is still green, is leached into the water. Okay.
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+[12:08] Now in the center of the of the main part of chlorophyll, the really the business center is a magnesium ion. And uh in in water, uh, with the action of heat, and especially in if there's acid, right, that magnesium ion gets kicked out and uh replaced with hydrogen, and what you get is that kind of dark uh greeny, almost olive uh drabier bluish, a bluish color uh of the chlorophyll after that's been happening. So that's the major color change that happens in most uh in most vegetables as they cook, or as I should say as they overcook. Which is why we say you can add a little bit of baking soda to uh something, and your vegetables will turn mushy, but they'll go bright green, right? Bright green.
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+[12:47] Uh because you're you're basically what happens is when you put the vegetable in, all of a sudden you know, uh the the light couldn't come out of the vegetable very well because there's air sacs, the chlorophyll might be contained and stuff. So that there's basically the the color is muted. You throw it into water, and boom, you know what I mean? It um it it the cells are broken, the water penetrates, and now all of a sudden the green really pops, it really pops out. So I don't know whether or not uh the color you're describing is some mixture of cooked and I mean otherwise uh you know, chlorophyll that has magnesium taken out and some that hasn't, some that's become water soluble due to the action of cooking.
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+[13:23] I just can't tell. You'd have to send me a picture of your soup so I can uh see what's what's going on. Uh another thing you can do, uh it could be toxic, so please don't poison your guests, uh, other than baking soda, which actually Nastasha baking soda would work really well in a soup, because what you could do is you could add baking soda, cook your soup uh down until it's to death, it'll go bright freaking green, stay bright green on you, and then at the last minute, correct it with acidity, which will take out kind of the baking soda flavor and bring the soup back, you know, and once the temperature is a little bit lower, so it's not going to color change on you. Might be an interesting thing for you to try if you haven't tried it before. The other thing you can do is you instead of replacing the magnesium with copper, you can place uh I mean sorry with hydrogen, you can replace it with copper, and it gets a crazy ass.
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+[14:05] You know those olives that are like that hyper bright green? Yeah. Like not the olives like manzanilla, but the hyper bright, like cherry, some chariolas are hyper bright like that. I think, not sure, could be making this up, could be lying. I think that they add a little, probably lying.
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+[14:14] For those of you listening, probably a lie. Uh that's the same color that's produced by uh uh taking the chlorophyll and replacing the magnesium with copper. And so uh you can do that, but too much copper is uh what's the word I'm looking for? Poisonous! Poisonous, but uh small amounts of it aren't.
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+[14:32] So anyway. Uh and so what are some other things that you can do uh to change colors? Well, another one, going back to McGee, uh who uh we were hanging out with at Tales of the Cocktail last week. If I get time to talk about it, I'll talk about it. Probably won't get time.
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+[14:44] Uh especially if some of you suckers call in to 718-497-2128 with a question at 747288. Um garlic and onions can turn interesting shades of blue and green uh when they're cooked very slowly. Uh and the very first uh curious cook column that uh Harold McGee put into the uh New York Times, it's gotta be like four years ago now, three or four years ago, uh one of the things he treated was this fact that sometimes uh if you puree onions and garlic or just cut up garlic and uh cook it very slowly, uh it can turn green and blue. And what's happening is is that uh some some molecules, in fact, some of the ones that make make it pungent, you know, some of these uh sulfur compounds can uh get altered by enzymes that are native to the onions in the garlic, and uh then combine together into larger molecules, because typically larger molecules are pigmented, you know, or you can see them as opposed to smaller molecules, which are usually uh colorless. Anyways, uh so the uh not always, usually.
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+[15:41] Uh so what happens is they combine and they get these kind of like shocking blue and greens. And so anyone out there who's done any low temperature cooking, let's say you were to put a steak with garlic and butter in a bag and cook it at 55 Celsius for two hours, you'll notice the uh some of the garlic is going to turn kind of uh bluish or greenish. And this is something that you can do. And I've done actually, we've made uh blue garlic soup using uh I think it was blue, blue or green. I can for I can't forget, like onions turn green and garlic turn blue, or the other way around, and you can sh and you can alter the color by combining the different amounts of onion and garlic.
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+[16:12] Anyway, if you take a puree or even just slices of onion and garlic, you stick them in a bag, and you cook it at like 55 degrees for uh like an hour. The stuff's gonna turn bright colors on you. You can then uh pressure cook it to neutralize uh some of those flavors so it's not too strong, and then you can use it in large quantities and still have the color changed item to uh serve. Uh if you don't cook it uh in a pressure cooker afterwards, and the color does stay by the way, I've done it, uh, then you're in for a world of freaking hurt because if you can see that color, if it's a brightly colored puree, please don't go anywhere near your family or friends for the next week and a half. The other one that I could think of off the top of my head is that you can uh use uh if you have a blood-based thing, and Nathan Miravold, Chris Young, and Maxime Bilet all in the modernist cuisine uh cookbook cookbooks, the mega opus.
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+[17:00] Uh and when is he coming on by the way? When's Miravold coming on? The third week of August. All right, in the third week of August, Nathan Miravold's gonna call into the show. So none of you chumps miss that stuff.
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+[17:10] Call in to Nathan Miravold in the third week. What country am I gonna be in? You'll be here. I'll be here. Awesome.
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+[17:17] Call in to here, and you, our cooking issues listeners, are gonna get the opportunity to personally ask Nathan Mirvold a question. Now, bear in mind, Nathan Mirabol, he might he might tear into it. Depends on what you ask. I mean, you know, you know. Yeah, he's he's an opinionated guy.
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+[17:33] It should be interesting. Uh, I'm excited, I'm super excited, super looking forward to it. So get your questions ready for the Mirvold thing. And I think, hey Jack, we can go an hour on mil uh an hour on Mirvold Day, right? Oh, yeah.
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+[17:44] Oh, yeah, okay. Uh the other one I was thinking of from their cookbook is you can take blood and hit it with carbon monoxide, the same stuff that you use if you're gonna suck a tailpipe, the sad stuff, carbon monoxide. If you take carbon monoxide and hit it to um to meat, it's it goes incredibly bright red. There's there are two uh there are two small children looking in the studio window right now who are incredibly curious about the radio thing. Trust me, kids, it's not that interesting.
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+[18:09] Anyway, uh so uh and this is how they make their uh rare beef jus, where they cook uh beef in a bag and they can optionally hit it with carbon monoxide to get a really, really right bread, uh bread color. Uh you can also use this to rip off consumers by hitting meat with carbon monoxide to make it look bright red even though it's spoiled. And Ken Kirshenbaum bought a piece of meat. Ken Kirshenbaum uh the polymer chemist and our buddy from the experimental cuisine collective at NYU bought a piece of meat and basically kept it out of a fridge, uh turning uh, you know, awful uh for weeks and stayed a nice bright red color because of the carbon monoxide they so nicely put into the container for it. He hates that.
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+[18:45] He thinks it should be outlawed. Let's take a break. Not yet. Uh because that goes into this one question Aaron Smith called in on blood basting. How Nastash, you know, only you could ruin such an awesome segue from going from changing the color of blood by adding carbon monoxide into a blood based basting question.
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+[19:04] You y this Nastash will always do this. You know what? If you're about to buy Nastasha a Christmas present or birthday present, don't. Because what's gonna happen is is five seconds, literally five seconds before you try to buy her something or get her something, like a glass of water if she's thirsty, she will ask you for it and ruin the opportunity for you to get it for her. That is a lot of information you're giving away, right?
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+[19:25] Yes, it's a lot of information, but it's true, and it might be helpful to some of our listeners should they ever meet you. Anyway, uh Aaron Smith writes in with a blood basting question. Hi, uh love the show, and I'm thrilled that you're back from your break. I was looking through an old French cookbook, uh, the uh Lavarins Cuisinaire Frossay uh and from 1653, and notice an interesting instruction when roasting a pig like a boar. The recipe is you may disguise the boar, uh you may disguise the pig uh near to a boar.
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+[19:49] That is, after you have beaten it well, you shall endure it with blood. I don't know whether it's endor or endure. For me, uh well, we'll get into this. And uh and after a while, stick it, spit it, and not forgetting to uh I think I say endure, even though I don't know. Uh feet with blood before it's roasted, serve it as a boar with sauce or without it.
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+[20:05] Uh and then uh Aaron puts down that the definition of uh endure is to wet daub uh some liquor as one doth a pie or cake before it's put into the oven. So basically a pig is basted with blood before it's roasted on a spit, and um Aaron was interested in what the blood might be doing. It has uh and I'm saying I'm keep saying your name a lot because I'm not sure if this is Guy Aaron or girl Aaron. Aaron. With an E or an A?
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+[20:26] E. Oh. Can't tell. Can't tell. Don't know.
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+[20:30] Anyway, um sorry about my lack of knowledge on that. Anyway, so uh I was curious about what's going on. It has sugars and amino acids, so it could be acting as a browning agent. I know a touch of glucose in picking duck can lead to beautiful browning because glucose is a reducing sugar, which you use to generate the myard reaction, uh along with proteins and amino acids. Uh the Google search led to Julia Child's description of pressed duck, where the duck is basted in blood sauce while it's being roasted.
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+[20:53] Uh and so is this a standard method that's fallen out of flavor? Have I ever basted with blood or done uh in my pressed duck adventures? And want to know what was going on. Um okay. Well, uh, and this is and Aaron's from San Diego.
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+[21:07] Um so listen. As far as I know, uh I'm gonna say endure, even though it might be endour, is a technique not just for basting blood or going on pies, was a standard technique for coating things with different colors in uh medieval times. So as a presentation trick, for instance, if you're making a cock and trice, which is a bird, uh, you know, the back end of a bird glued under the front of a pig, right? You would take the seams and whatnot on the outside and you would endure it with different mixtures that would kind of form a crust and also color it to make it look more fanciful, right? Um and then tip you know, typically you would set that by then baking it uh or roasting it.
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+[21:44] Now uh when I make a pressed duck, I don't uh what you know what we what I always did in the recipes I have, and I think this is the way Tour d'Arjon, the restaurant does it, is they they take the duck uh that's been strangled so the blood doesn't go out or suffocated, and then they press the blood and juices out, then the blood becomes uh a thickening agent for the sauce that you use. Then when you cut the and the the meat's already been par roasted, then you cut off the breast slices and you reheat them in the sauce, uh, and then the sauce thickens up, etc. etc. So I don't know of any recipe where you then baste it and roast it again. It's more kind of just a reheat uh with the slices.
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+[22:20] There's famous recipes uh for like civet, like or civet, I guess I don't know how you pronounce it in French, of uh rabbit or jugged hair, which is the way uh US person would say it that uses the blood of the hair as a thicking agent but the last at the last part of the sauce because it will then uh thicken up and can curdle and break. Nils Norren says in Sweden they have a famous blood soup that's made from gooseblood that uh is cooked for a long time, I think with acid to stop it from coagulating too much. Um, so there is a long history of this, but the idea of using it as an outer coating, I would think that it would set and then uh and then congeal with the heat and then maybe crust up as it dries out, but I don't know what it would uh taste like. Uh it doesn't gross me out. I mean, blood, meat, it's all part of the animal.
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+[23:03] If the animal, unless you look, unless you're kosher, in which case, you know, don't eat the blood because the blood is the life, and uh, if you do, you know, a curse on your people, you shall be cut off from your people, etc. etc. But unless it's like religiously uh barred for from you, uh, for you from having it, I think it's a waste to throw it away because you know, the you done killed the animal anyway, uh, might as well use everything you can. I mean, I think that's more modern way of looking at it. So I, you know, but I this other thing.
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+[23:29] Why is it inherently more gross, Nastasha, to eat the blood or any weird part of the of the animal? Why is it more inherently gross than any other part? Like, why is like couldn't we culturally be raised, be like, oh my god, the loin? Gross. Right?
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+[23:45] I mean, why is it inherently is it because when we cut ourselves, we're like crap, that's blood, and we're freaked out by it. Yeah, I think it's uh it's a yeah. Same reason why people think that like they're making a sexual statement by eating like you know, deer testicles and stuff like that. Yeah. You know, when a guy eats a deer testicle, people are like, yeah.
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+[24:01] You know what I mean? Like, is it because of some sort of weird like sexual connotation? Yeah, right. So it's so like things that are gross of things that like we don't want to eat, like, you know, things that any whatever. Very strange.
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+[24:13] Anyway, all right. So now we will go to our first commercial break. Call it all your questions 2, 718, 497, 21828. 7184972128 cooking issues. And I'm coming from a brand new place.
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+[24:50] I'm feeling quick and I don't miss the link. And a better note that no trace. Hey, take it out. Check it out. Check out the new lick.
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+[25:01] What about my new trick? And believe me, the capital sweet was dealing hard. The cats don't speak dealing hard. Some cat's a bad for his hard. Check me out.
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+[25:18] That's where the bust will start. Taking place. So keep our light when you got some light and the balls can't fit no case. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at 12 p.m.
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+[25:55] As she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the past by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where and how. From as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables and deli counters of today. The show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures. Again, that's Thursday at 12 p.m.
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+[26:24] on the Heritage Radio Network. So nice. So nice that is true. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. By the way, Jack has managed to find, and I really like it, one of the old must be one of the only James Brown songs that I don't know.
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+[26:40] Oh, wow. You know, like I I don't know how many thousands of hours I've listened to James Brown and managed to get one of the ones I don't know. Great tune, though. It's called Cold Blooded, and it's from the record called Hell. Oh, yeah.
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+[26:55] Guess what I'm gonna go out and download today? No offense, James. I spent many well, you're dead, but no, I've spent many, many hundreds of dollars on your products. I think I'm gonna go steal this one on the internet. So what do you think, Nastasha?
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+[27:04] I don't know. Cold blooded hell. Anyway, uh, by the way, I think Linda Palacio might be a good person to ask that last question on blood and history. Linda Palacio is uh, I think I think she wants to be involved somehow with the Museum of Food and Drink. And uh we'd we love to have her involved.
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+[27:21] So if I see her, which I uh I very rarely do, but if I see her, I'll ask her that that blood question because that might be right up for alley. Okay. Naveen Sinha writes in, and by the way, Naveen is the head TA for was last year, I don't know if he is this year, uh, for the class that uh Faran uh Adria headlined uh in Harvard. And he's a vegetarian. Okay, Nastasha, why don't you bust on the guy for being a vegetarian on on the radio?
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+[27:46] The guy already listen, this poor guy, all right. Listen, this poor guy, Naveen, right? He he goes to this event uh and he and he's now hanging out with all these chefs, right? Because he was involved with this uh class at Harvard where they had some of the world's greatest chefs go in, like Wiley, my brother-in-law, all these guys go in. And the like all chefs invariably bust on this guy for being a vegetarian.
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+[28:08] Leave the guy alone. No, he's a TA at Harvard in the food food studies program. He's not a TA in Harvard of the Food Studies program. He's in the physics and material science program, and they're teaching a study of they're teaching a class on how to learn about that subject through the lens of food. Yes.
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+[28:27] Yes. Leave the man alone on his vegetarianists. Please. He's a nice guy. I hope he calls in.
+
+[28:33] Yeah, well, if you if he does, I recommend he calls in 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Anyway. Naveen uh writes in he says, he recently read about the Uzo effect, in which uh anis-flavored spirits and liqueurs become opaque, white usually, unless it's been colored beforehand, when diluted with water. I was wondering if you have seen this effect occur with other types of spirits.
+
+[28:57] And also, do I know of any other examples of color-changing beverages? Thanks. Alright, so uh what's happening with um with uh uzo or I don't know why the hell they call it the uzo effect. Seriously, like like I they they say that uzo is drunk more in in the US than uh pastis, recard, or absinthe. But since Absinthe uh you know went through that surge in popularity after the uzo effect had been characterized.
+
+[29:22] Uh maybe we should rename it the absinthe effect. How many by show of hands out in the world on the internet? How many of you have had a glass of uzo this year? Anyone? Um anyone, right?
+
+[29:32] Uh some sort of absinthe beverage? There's two people in here raising their hands, you know what I mean? Or pastis or perno uh based uh substance. Anyways, so uh I'm gonna forget the name because for some reason I forgot to paste it into my iPad. But um I believe the uh the oil involved the chemical is called Anatole.
+
+[29:49] I think it's what it's called. Anatol, and it's at the end. So someone will call in and say, I can't believe you forgot the name of it, but there it is. I did. Uh and what happens is is that it's a very s interesting effect.
+
+[29:59] When you're when you're making um, usually when you make an emulsion, you have to provide energy, usually uh mechanical energy, to uh create uh the little droplets of oil inside of uh a liquid. And the reason is is because uh it's takes a lot less energy for because there's a lot more surface area and there's actual energy associated with keeping two um emissible, i.e. don't mix together liquids next to each other. So that's why usually you have to beat things with whisks and blenders to get them to emulsify. Another thing you can do to lower the amount of energy you could put in is to add an emulsifier, which takes away some of the energy required to make that emulsion.
+
+[30:34] But the way the uzo effect works is entirely different. Instead of using mechanical energy, an emulsion is made basically almost spontaneously. It's called spontaneous emulsion. And what's going on is that uh the oil is soluble in in ethanol in in alcohol, but not in water. So uh what happens as you dilute uh, you know, I'm gonna say uh absinthe or perno, right?
+
+[31:00] Because I don't drink oozo. Uh, you know, why not other things like that? Why not like uh why not like aguardiente or like any other anis-flavored thing, like why ozo? No offense to the Greeks. No offense.
+
+[31:12] You know what I mean? Uh anyway. So uh you when you dilute it with water, um, you have the entire solution is basically uh evenly and homogeneously saturated with uh with this oil, and all of a sudden becomes super saturated. And it and it does it in a way that that many, many, many, many, many millions of tiny, tiny droplets are instantly formed, right? And because that's super fast nucleation, you get these small, small droplets that are stabilized, right?
+
+[31:41] Uh for hours and hours and hours, sometimes even days, depending on on how it works. And so it's this like instant like super saturation and massive nucleation that causes the oozo effect. And yes, it is uh visible in many other spirits. I don't know of any commercial spirits uh other than the anise flavored ones where it happens, uh, because that's famous. But many of the fl uh spirits that we make in the rotary evaporator will uh show the the uh oozo effect when they're diluted.
+
+[32:12] So some of our Thai basal spirits will uh if you add uh water to them, they will go white on you when you mix. Uh and then later on, if you let it sit for days and days, the oil will float to the top. Um and just tons of them. I've had caraway go white on me when I when I've done it, and I don't know what the components are in it that's doing it, but I've had some of our carrier, although maybe it was the caraway that we put phenyl into, which would make more sense maybe. Maybe maybe possible.
+
+[32:39] Um but uh so the answer is Naveen, yes. There are other oils that are uh you know soluble in ethanol and weakly are insoluble soluble in uh water and have this effect. The other thing that liquors can do to change colors is you can shift uh acid-base equilibria. So you can have a liquor that's neutral that has uh anthocyanins in it, and they'll start out uh in the bluish range, and then uh like blue corn, uh, and then as you acidify it with uh lemon juice or whatnot, it'll turn red uh or reddish purple. That's another thing you can do, although I don't know of any com there's some teas in Thailand that are flower-based.
+
+[33:18] There's a blue flower-based tea in Thailand, I believe it's Thailand, because Nastasha wasn't. Yeah, that we researched. And um, and that one, you make the tea and it's blue, you add the lemon, it turns red. Uh so that's something you can do. Another thing you can do is you can do kind of a re reverse uzo where you can suspend a weekly soluble uh like calcium or magnesium salt in, and then when you acidify it, it'll go clear.
+
+[33:41] Uh Nastasha and I have had uh we had to do we tr it's interesting you should ask this because we tried those things for this event we had to do. We didn't try that flower. What was it called? We couldn't find the flower. I forget the name of it.
+
+[33:52] It's similar to like a blue cornflower or something. It looked it was that color of blue. Uh um anyway, but it was very rare here in the US. Uh anyway, so we tried it and uh not to much uh good effect, especially because we needed to do the opposite of what was easy. We needed it to go not from red to uh not from blue to red but from red to blue and basic drinks.
+
+[34:11] Let me just tell you, what's the word we're looking for here? Gross. Gross. Um Brian Oaks writes in uh on iPads and fruits. I know from the radio show that you have an iPad.
+
+[34:24] Any recommendations on food-related apps? No, I don't really I don't really have any food-related apps. Yeah, you do. What? Chang's thing.
+
+[34:31] What? Chang's zap. I don't have that on here. Is that released yet? Yeah, I think so.
+
+[34:36] But listeners, if you're interested in developing an app for heritage radio network, email us at info at heritage radio network.com. Wow. Nice, huh? I've heard some people like the ratio thing, but I've never used it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:49] I know people that like that. Yeah? Yeah. And I hear that uh I don't I don't uh you know who uh you know, Jerry Lavish, our uh our web guru, he would know because he he does that kind of stuff. I look, I use my uh iPad as basically a book.
+
+[35:03] It's basically like, you know, I have like uh, you know, you know, probably a hundred thousand pages or something of uh of science related uh books and articles uh in my iPad, and that's mainly what I what I use it for. Um but then people write in. Tell us what they think their best uh their best food apps are. Uh also uh Brian just got back from a trip to Florida and stop by the fruit and spice park. Good job.
+
+[35:24] Everyone should go to the fruit and spice park. Uh I think we talked about it last week a little bit, right? Our trip to the fruit and spice park. But he has a recommendation that I might have forgotten to make, uh, which is I would recommend bringing something to rinse your hands and face with because you are going to be covered with sweet, drippy, sticky mango juice. Not that there's anything wrong with that, he adds.
+
+[35:40] I saved at least 15 different mangoes and could have tried at least a dozen more. Why not? Why didn't you? I don't have to go to dinner. Maybe.
+
+[35:47] Or maybe they were maybe because maybe he didn't get the super like treatment and they they chased him out of there. Mm-hmm. Uh I'm thinking rapid infusion with mango puree and rum. Keep up the great show Brian Oaks. Although, you know what I really want to do is I want to take some of those mangoes and fuse the mango chunks in a vacuum with uh booze, because that's be delicious.
+
+[36:05] But we couldn't, when we went, harvest enough of these mangoes to um to do that to. It's an excellent recommendation, by the way, bringing something to uh wash your hands and face with. Uh what I used when I was out was the incessant rainstorm that was pounding us with buckets of water every 10 seconds. Right? So we had a we had a separate problem in that we couldn't like keep our cameras out because none of us had like you know, diving cameras, because we were basically tasting mangoes in like three feet of water.
+
+[36:31] Like we needed like snorkel gear to do our tasting. Um, you know what I'm I've had this problem so many times. You want to take fruit out of a tasting and you don't know what to do. So anyone out there who's has this, and we need a way to label fruits. Sharpie's don't write on f on waxy fruits, especially when it's raining, and the Sharpie comes off and then the Sharpie starts writing.
+
+[36:52] So Sharpie, I know I love Sharpie. Sharpie, all love to you, and for all of the all of the good times that we've had together, but it is ineffective for writing the names on fruits if the weather is at all messed up. They need to make a fruit sharpie. Yeah. Thank you, Nastasha.
+
+[37:06] They need to make a fruit sharpie. Are you listening out there, people? Someone either tell me look, I don't want it to be horribly toxic. Like I'm not willing to die to label my fruit. But I need some sort of like fruit label so I can write on it.
+
+[37:18] The other idea I had is like, what if they had like a special like little like needle thing where you could like almost like you remember those old Dymo like label makers that would punch that tape? But like you could just like quickly like type the letter and it would stencil into the fruit skin. We should just bring uh whatever that thing is called. It'll take on any tape you put on will come come right the heck off if it's raining. And like the like McGee and I were out there the second day when when uh you were driving to Miami.
+
+[37:43] We were trying to write, and the pa as we were writing the paper was bleeding off into the uh in into the earth. It was a freaking nightmare, which m which A meant that we could taste fewer fruits, and B is making our job of figuring out what the heck we ate a lot, lot harder. Um anyway, I'm glad someone's going to the fruit and spice park. Everyone should go to Miami. If look, if any of you guys plan a trip to Miami, you need to uh go down to South Day to the homestead area to the fruit and spice park.
+
+[38:13] Uh and and then when they tell you that you can't eat the fruit, I don't know, punch them in the face. Uh don't do that. Don't do that. Uh, and uh do whatever you can to get a hold of some of the fruit. They usually let you eat the fruit that's fallen on the ground.
+
+[38:26] The problem with the fruit, two things I've noticed. One, the problem with the fruit spice park uh is that they allow the public in a lot, and so they have to be careful about the fruits because otherwise they'd be stripped bare instantaneously. Um the other problem is is that tropical fruit people are more covetous of their fruit. This has been my experience, my relatively small experience, as opposed to temperate fruit people. Like you have someone with an orchard fruit, uh or uh like a a pear or apple orchard, you know, whatever, you're like, can I have this fruit?
+
+[38:52] They're like, yeah, take it. Take it. Otherwise it's gonna fall on the ground and rot. You know what I mean? If they're not commercial.
+
+[38:58] If they're commercial, it's a different story. But these guys are like, they know every remember, these guys knew every single mango that was on that tree, and if you took one, they're like, where'd that mango go? You know what I mean? It's like they're they it's a different it's a different kind of crew. I still haven't figured it quite out yet.
+
+[39:13] Anyway, we're gonna take one more commercial break and then come back and slam through these last couple questions. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. We live in Brooklyn, baby. We try to make it, baby.
+
+[40:08] We wanna make it, baby. We're gonna make it, baby. Living in Brooklyn, baby. We live in Brooklyn, baby. Wow.
+
+[40:21] Anyway, yeah, and Nastasha, by the way, even though we're we're are we on? Yeah, we're on. Even though we're in Brooklyn, uh a lot of the time, Nastasha is like an old school Brooklyn hater. So anyone out there, anyone out there who's a Brooklyn patriot, please call in and give Nustacha serious ribbing. You also I hate the roads in Brooklyn.
+
+[40:45] Like someday for this, we're gonna do the entire session on Neil uh Neil Diamond's Brooklyn Roads. And it must be some sort of like crazy sarcastic song because the roads here in Brooklyn. Brooklyn Roads, yeah. You know the song Brooklyn Roads. Rambling Rose?
+
+[41:00] Brooklyn Roads. No, it's cracking, you're thinking Crackling Rose. Crackling Rose. Yeah, Brooklyn Roads. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[41:06] Get up on your Neil Diamond, alright? Anyway. Uh, so because the roads here are some of the worst dang things in the world. It's like, you know, it's it's like you someone's sitting there and throwing hand grenades into the pavement and blowing holes in it for no apparent reason. And then and then they or the or like somehow like meteorites made of asphalt are falling into the into the road and just leaving giant, like, or volcanoes of asphalt are coming out of the road at different points.
+
+[41:32] And if you're a biker, the roads of Brooklyn are um what's the word? Crap. Right? Crap. Anyway.
+
+[41:41] Uh, but Brooklyn itself I enjoy. I enjoy Brooklyn itself, just not their roads. Okay. Uh James T. Ray writes in about popcorn.
+
+[41:51] Normally I eat with reckless abandon. However, I love to snack and I wanted a low calorie option. I like popcorn as a snack, and reach recently purchased an air popper to pop my corn, and I love it. So the question can I get salt to adhere to the popcorn without a lipid or making a soggy mess? And by the way, I've tried the cooking spray with mixed results.
+
+[42:10] I love the show, James T. Ray. Hmm. Um, well, the first thing you can do is to get uh popcorn salt. So uh Morton makes many different kinds of salt, and uh one of them is popcorn salt.
+
+[42:25] I just dropped mine out. And popcorn salt is uh very, very, very fine. And so it adheres to popcorn much better than even their uh iodized salt, and definitely better than uh kosher salt and things like that. So and it's super super fine, easy to distribute. So if you've had mixed results with the cooking spray, which is what I was gonna recommend before I read the last line of uh of your thing, um, you know, spread it out, spray a little cooking spray, and then a fine dusting of this popcorn salt.
+
+[42:55] I think you're gonna get better adhesion. Um aside from that, I did a primary search. There are, I mean, you could do I mean all the other things make it such a pain in the butt that I don't know that you'd do it. You can make like a uh uh like an alcohol dispersion, like a like a like a vodka dispersion of salt, spray it over the popcorn, throw it in an oven and dry it back out with a pain in the butt. I mean, you want to make popcorn, presumably you want to eat it at some point, right?
+
+[43:20] You don't want to sit there and re wet it, redry it out, right? It doesn't make any sense, right, Nastasha. That's too much trouble, right? Yeah. I just put salt and sugar on mine.
+
+[43:28] Air popped? Did you listen to the question at all? What's it air popped is like in the in the popper? Again, Nastasha's sitting there thinking about I'm sure she's thinking about lunch, which we're gonna have delicious Roberta's lunch instead of what's going on. Air popper means that it's basically like a hair dryer that that's contained, and it and by the way, your air popper makes a good coffee roaster.
+
+[43:49] I don't know whether you knew that, James. You can roast coffee in your air popper. Uh you have to be careful because the chaff flies all over your uh your room. You have to contain it, make sure it doesn't catch on fire. Fire's a problem.
+
+[43:58] Anyway, um I used to do it for years. I used an air air popcorn maker before I bought a uh coffee roaster and then moved to whirly pop, which is actually my favorite popcorn making technique. So in air popping, Nastasha, there is no added oil. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[44:12] Uh I wonder whether you could add just a small amount of oil to the popcorn kernels as you're popping them in the air popper and then um maybe then increase adhesion. I don't know. That might because if the spray problem was that maybe it wasn't getting all over it, maybe a small amount of oil on the popcorn kernels themselves. But the problem with uh doing that, and this is probably why it won't work, is that it's what's that technology, air popping is what's called a fluid bed kind of technology where the popcorn kernels are all separated from each other and kept agitated by the uh air that's blowing in them. And then when a popcorn kernel pops, it immediately becomes less dense and it's unpopped cousins and then floats to the surface and then it's pushed out so it doesn't burn at the bottom.
+
+[44:51] And so I wonder whether adding a small amount of oil would kind of ruin that effect uh or get into it or just ruin everything in general. But I know that you can have oil in a popcorn popper because that's how I uh when you roast coffee, the oils are in there, and the oil uh gets on the inside of the air popcorn popper, and it does foul it a little bit, but it doesn't like ruin it in any way. So that could be another thing to do. But my first step would be to get the actual popcorn salt, and you can buy it on you could buy it on the Amazon.com. Anyway, uh Garth writes in about vanilla.
+
+[45:21] We grow vanilla in the South Pacific Island of Tonga and process the beans into different products in New Zealand. Uh, how would we produce a vanilla foam that we could use at food shows for attendees to scoop some foam from a bowl to taste our vanilla? I visualize a nice glass fish bowl without any fish with an aeration. He actually says fish removed. Get a new one.
+
+[45:40] Don't just remove the fish from the fish bowl because then you're killing the fish. No, I don't see the case. I don't I don't think he was saying that. Anyway, all right. Just without a fish.
+
+[45:48] I'd buy a new one. Anyway. With an aeration pump, causing the liquid in the bowl to foam up so people can just scoop some on a tasting stick. Not sure what type of base would be best as it uh as it ideally would just suit our vanilla flavor without too much else competing. Could taste like a custard, a panicata, ice cream, jelly, citrus, etc.
+
+[46:05] We have carrageen in, but no other high-tech ingredients. Okay. Foam done with a aquarium pump in a bowl uh or in any sort of vessel was something uh that a bunch of chefs were working on and was first cracked and pioneered by uh Andoni Adoriz uh from uh when you know at Mugaritz in like uh years ago. And uh his recipe, which is uh on the internets, I think uh if you just search it the the famous dish he made with it was called Vanity, and it had a chocolate foam. Uh and the what he the basic recipe is two percent uh powdered egg whites by weight uh of the mixture, which you know he then lets uh uh what's the word hydrate and 0.1, i.e.
+
+[46:53] uh is that right? One gram in a liter? Can't be that low. Look it up, but it's something like that. One gram in a liter of Xanthan gum.
+
+[47:03] If you can get carrageen in, I'm pretty sure you can get Xanthan uh where you are. If not, it's easy to male order Xanthan and you only have to use a tiny tiny bit of it so you can get a hold of it. And that's the basic recipe that he uses to make the big air bubble foams, and then you just put it in the bottom and do it out. Now, the downside is is they have very little uh flavor in them because they are like 99.99% air with only a little bit of bubbles and they pop almost instantaneously. I mean, that's the idea of it.
+
+[47:33] I think that for what you're doing, you're gonna want a more dense, stable foam, uh, in which case you could probably just use powdered egg whites and vanilla uh and uh and your vanilla extract and water um or or something. I'm not trying to think of what the best foam would be. You could use if you have agar, you can make a fluid gel and then and then shoot it out of an ISI canister. The problem with foams is I think that they're they're going to reduce the flavor of your vanilla by introducing a lot of air into it. The other problem is is you might want to look at an article uh brought to my attention also by McGee uh uh from 1997 called The Effect of Milk Fat on the Flavor Perception of Vanilla Ice Cream.
+
+[48:11] Uh basically, the more fat you have, the uh more muted your perception of the vanilla flavor is. So I would stay away from anything that contained fat because uh if you're gonna want to highlight this, and I and I sense why you want to have it in a foam because you want the air, and then you first of all you probably don't want to use that much of it, and you probably want to have the flavor come out. You also don't want to use a lot of heat because heat is gonna alter the uh flavor of your uh of your vanilla. It's too bad you can't get something like VersaWhip, which you can then just whip it up into a foam with a little maltodextrin, or something like uh, you know, what else? Like VersaWhip or methyl methyl cell F50.
+
+[48:51] I mean, you could try just a stable uh egg white foam. Um you could probably get pasteurized egg whites and then do it that way and do it uncooked, but I don't want you to have that eggy flavor. But I I don't A, I don't want you to heat it because I don't want you to alter the flavor of the vanilla through the heat. And B, I don't want you uh I don't want you to add any fat because then um you're adding fat. You know what?
+
+[49:15] Maybe a minimum amount of heat, like almost like uh an Italian meringue where you whip the egg white and then you pour the hot sugar in to set it a little bit, but it's not really cooking it for a long time. That might get it. And then you could just basically have this like meringue almost meringue icing that people could scoop up and then just go sugar and vanilla, it's gonna have the air, you'll get a good delivery. What do you think? Yeah.
+
+[49:35] It's low tech. Yeah. Low tech, delicious. Good job. Delicious and low tech.
+
+[49:39] Also, you can maybe stir some vanilla in after you cook it so that you uh so that you uh have some totally uncooked vanilla in it if it if you go a little over stiff. These are my recommendations, Garth. Use them for what they're worth, which is probably nothing. Uh lastly, uh Jason writes in about Nixtimol. Hi Dave, I love the post about nyxtimalization, thank you.
+
+[50:01] But uh I'm having trouble doing it here in the UK because field corn is not common. I have two questions. Do you need to use intact kernels or can you use broken cracked kernels? Most field corn here is sold as bird feed, a lot of it cracked. Also, can I use a grain mill like the one that would connect to my kitchen aid mixer to grind the grain after treatment?
+
+[50:17] Thanks, Jason. Unfortunately, Jason, cracked corn won't work because uh it doesn't uh hydrate the same way basically um the the outside, the pericarp is what's stopping the water from going instantly into the corn kernel and overcooking it. And so if you treat it with lye and it's already been broken, it's just it no, it just won't work. It won't it won't be the same. Uh what I would recommend if you can't get field corn is use even though I said in the post not to use popcorn.
+
+[50:45] Popcorn will work, right? It's just not quite as um. It's just it's just harder. It's not ideal for it, but it's better than bracked uh cracked or broken. So I would try to use uh I would get popcorn.
+
+[50:59] You'll get the largest uh kernel ones, not the small kernel variety that you can. And is it the best? No, because it's hard to grind, right? Uh I would not use the KitchenAid. That thing's gonna gum up.
+
+[51:11] I have one, a grain mill, Kitchen A grain mill. Things gonna gum up lickety lickety lickety split. I would then, you know, if you have to, I would use a food processor, um, and you know, and then maybe even mortar and uh pestle some of it to get the texture down. The problem with the food processor is you're gonna have to add more water. I have done it.
+
+[51:29] It's a sticky, awful mess, but I I I have done it. Um so you you can you can do it. Um it's just you know, it's not ideal, but it definitely is possible for experimentation. The people ate the my my uh tortillas that I made with uh with popcorn uh and a food processor, and they didn't, you know, they didn't punch me in the face. I didn't also I didn't have those looks of well, this was good, but me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[51:53] You know what I'm talking about? You know those looks? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so give it a try, and I'd appreciate anyone from the UK, because I've had a couple people maybe have this problem, write in with their solutions to finding uh good ways to do nixamalization in the UK. Anyway, come back next week and get another episode of Cooking Issues Vision.
+
+[52:22] Oh, you did crap me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. AMP goes local. The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company, commonly known as the AMP, that grocery chain you've seen all your life, has glommed onto the concept of local and sustainable and has just introduced a new consortium of producers known as the Mid Atlantic Country Farms, from which they will source beef and poultry. The animals are antibiotic and hormone free, raised on vegetarian feed.
+
+[53:00] There is no mention of certified humane or animal welfare approved uh status, however. Maybe they haven't gotten that far in the marketing department. But what makes this of interest is that AMP supplies all AMP supermarkets, Pathmark, Food Emporium, Wald Baums, and Super Fresh. These are not particularly high-end supermarkets, so this is good news for the average consumer. If you want to read more about this, you can go to the AMP website, which is www.apt.com slash pressroom.
+
+[53:28] This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Finger on the pole and City Winery are proud to present the summer barbecue blowout festival, August 6th from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at City Winery, located at 155 Varrick Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire May's, Van Dag, Momo Fuco Mo Bar, Imperial No. 9, Myeland, Mexico, Craft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, The Meatball Shop, and Dose Torres.
+
+[53:58] Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, Pewter Magic, New Villager, Punches, Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ. VIP and General Admission tickets are available at CityWinery.com. Finger on the pole for City Wine, we'd like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Foods USA, New York Magazine, Break of vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City, Sub Zero and Wolf. Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.fotpnyc.com.
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+[0:05] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. On behalf of everybody at Heritage Radio Network.com, we'd like to send a special thank you to the Hearst Ranch, our biggest supporter and longest running sponsor since we first started in 2009. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free-range, all natural, grass-fed and grass finished beef.
+
+[0:44] Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the Central California coast. The heck were they thinking? Yeah, look it up. Well, maybe let's see if we can get that for our uh for our uh what's it called? You know, our intra song thing.
+
+[1:52] So, Jack, since I'm unable to remember the telephone number here, can you give it to him? 718 497 2128. That is 718 497 2128. Call in with all of your live cooking or non-cooking related questions, technical or not. Okay, so uh start with uh questions that have been emailed to us beforehand.
+
+[2:14] This one comes from uh now okay, last name is P E T H O with an umlaut. I'm gonna assume that's pronounced Peter, but I don't know. Joseph Petter and Corby Cummer, our friend from uh from the Atlantic uh Monthly, uh the senior food editor there, uh says, uh Dave, an article, uh, and there's been many, so we'll talk about it, about uh sugar, uh, suggests that sugar does not melt but rather decomposes, and that there is a time temperature relationship associated with sugar. My question, and this is uh Joseph's question, Corby just was like, hey, what's up with this? Anyway, my question is that does that mean that sous vide caramel can be created?
+
+[2:49] Any thoughts on this? As for me, I will try some experiments soon. Uh okay. So uh I'm gonna fill everyone in. There's a bunch of uh research that's been uh produced recently by a uh uh a group of people mainly out of uh university of Illinois, uh, showing that sugar does not actually melt in a traditional sense, but rather melts and decomposes at the same time, right?
+
+[3:12] So a traditional material with a traditional melting point, like a metal, uh, you can take it from a solid uh to a liquid, back to a solid, back to a liquid, back to a solid, back to a liquid, blah blah blah blah blah. Right? Uh, you know, virtually ad infinitum, uh assuming there's no oxidation stuff like this. Right? This has a traditional melting point.
+
+[3:31] Oh, Nastasha just showed up. The L train. Hold a second, I'm gonna have to lift my my headphone cord so she can get into her customary seat. Oh, there goes the microphone. Alright, here we go.
+
+[3:40] Alright, now we're up to full staff. Now, um sugar, on the other hand, right? Uh the research has shown that every time someone has tried to figure out what the melting point of table sugar is, sucrose, they've noticed that uh it's been widely variant over the literature. And these guys uh did a study basically showing that there is no single melting point that basically it starts to decompose uh and and that basically shifts when it melts. So that the how fast you heat it changes uh basically when it appears to melt.
+
+[4:12] Uh and all the way up to when they're they're using something extremely quickly where they can ramp up the temperature on the order of like five, six hundred degrees Celsius per minute. And still they're showing a uh a shift. Uh they have data that shows that um sugar starts to break down roughly at 120 degrees Celsius, which is too hot for uh too hot for sous vide. But uh not uh well I forget what the temperature in a pressure cooker is, but it's somewhere in that region. Uh you so you might be able to do something in uh in a pressure cooker.
+
+[4:40] I have gotten things to sugars to brown in a pressure cooker over time, but at 120 C at normal pressure, you're talking about long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time for it to uh for it to start sugar to start breaking down. Um course you can get the temperature well above 120 C in a pressure cooker by uh basically just reducing the amount of water present. Anyway, so Sue V caramel, no, uh, but very interesting research on um sugar and it basically decomposing at the time that it at the same time that it melts and so not having a a melting point. And for those of you that really give a uh a hoot and a holler about this. Look up uh investigation of the heating rate dependency associated with the loss of crystalline structure in sucrose, glucose, and fructose using thermal analysis approach, 120 C, uh using thermal analysis approach, parts one and two of this year, along with their blockbuster follow-up.
+
+[5:32] Can the thermodynamic melting of temperature of sucrose, glucose, and fructose be measured using rapid scanning differential scan scanning calorimetry? So I mean those are was scintillating reading this morning, Mustache. I can't tell you how excited I was to read all those papers this morning. Oh my god. Yeah.
+
+[5:47] Uh anyway. Okay. So another question in from Steve. Uh oh, Steve, a often writing in, although I don't have his last name, but Steve. Writes in uh on pressure cookers and uh has a question on pressure cookers and pressure and on salt.
+
+[6:01] Hey, thanks for answering answering my question about pressure cookers. And no, the electric one, he has an electric one, doesn't hit 15 psi, it only manages 10 to 12 psi. But on the plus side, it can get really hot, so it's great for browning, and I don't have to keep an eye on it when it's cooking. Still experimenting with it and having fun with the results. Since I last spoke about uh electric pressure cookers, Quisinart sent me uh one of their electric pressure cookers.
+
+[6:20] It does indeed do browning. It is great in that it is quiet, uh, doesn't release steam, doesn't release uh kind of any extra uh moisture into the atmosphere, but I was trying to run tests on it to see what the pressures related were, and uh indeed I wasn't even able to get uh 10 PSI. I was able to get roughly, I think nine PSI based on the temperature measurements, which didn't quite make it to 140. I forget what the actual numbers were. So my my next it's it has something to do with the way that they're uh regulating the temperature based uh on the bottom.
+
+[6:50] There's like a little spring that shows that the thing is in, and then they're measuring the temperature at the bottom, and that's how they're calculating what uh to do it. They're not actually measuring pressure as far as I can tell. So my next step is to open up the Cuisinart uh and see whether there's uh a potentiometer or something in there that I can futz with that'll change uh what the temperature uh set limit is. If there is, I'm gonna adjust the temperature up to have it be at 15 PSI and see whether 'cause I really want my pressure cookers to be at 15 PSI. I've run a lot of uh tests where we uh we checked uh the taste of different things at different pressures.
+
+[7:24] And honestly, what 15 PSI second ring is pretty optimal for things like stocks and also for the speed of cooking and for the modification of texture and things like meats. Um I want it to be 15 PSI, so more to work on that later, but it does seem like a great piece of equipment. I'm trying to figure out how to hack it now. If any of you have had experience hacking Cuisinar pressure cookers, please write in and uh tell us how how uh how to do it before I ruin the one that was sent me because I would like to use it eventually in my house after I finish messing with it, right? Anyway, thanks to Quisenar for sending it.
+
+[7:56] Okay. Uh I by the way, if any of you have some cool equipment out there that you want us to beat on and look at, send us some equipment to beat on and look at. We have a call, Nasasha? Yes. Caller, you on the air.
+
+[8:08] Hi, Dave. It's Colin. Hey. Uh very long radio silence. I had something to ask you.
+
+[8:16] Sure. Uh so have you used cooked with sorrel very much? Uh I've uh only you know you I've used fresh uh and I've used the basically the red, the hibiscus style stuff to do uh beverages. Um, you know, for it's basically the the the acidity and the color, you know, there's a whole group of uh uh Caribbean and also African beverages based on the Yeah, yeah, like sorry. Yeah, I think they're great.
+
+[8:44] I mean that they're you know the the acidity is very kind of uh specific. I haven't looked up what the acid is. I think it's I think it's I'm not I think it's oxalic, but I'm not totally Yeah, I was gonna say that's something like you say. Yeah, yeah, it oh it's it's it's at least partially that and that's what gives it its similar kind of acid characteristic to something like rhubarb. Um so and and you know, for those of you that haven't had sorrel but have had rhubarb, uh they're uh have a similar sort of uh feeling in in its acidity.
+
+[9:16] Um and so I would bet that their acid makeup is fairly similar. That said, I love it as a drink. Um I've had I haven't had good luck yet mixing it as an alcoholic drink. I've uh the ones I've really enjoyed have been more like uh non-alcoholic drinks. Have you had any good luck with it as an alcoholic drink?
+
+[9:32] No, I I haven't actually tried it as a drink yet. I just sort of have have some growing and have been cooking with it a lot. Right. But uh so the thing is, you know how it's got that really nice, bright, fresh acidic flavor when it's raw. Yep.
+
+[9:47] Uh when you cook it, it gets it tak it gets a very excellent texture. It gets this kind of like creamy, velvety kind of goop texture that's uh it's it's pretty nice. So similar to like metals. Um yeah, I'm not totally like uh I don't want to have them in like testos and things, so I don't know what they're like all down. But uh let's see.
+
+[10:11] Oh, but so it takes on this kind of cooked spinach flavor that kind of muddles every like you know, kinda uh takes some of the freshness out of that flavor that I really enjoyed. So I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to you know, cook the sorrel or get it to that creamy consistency. Uh one and cause like one nice thing about it is you can then strain that through a cheesecloth and get rid of all the fibrous matter 'cause it I don't know, it just turns into like like I said, in those like goop. Right. And uh so I'm trying to see, you know, if I could turn that into something fluffy.
+
+[10:46] But you wanna you want to turn the the leftover fiber into something fluffy? Or do you want to turn the No, no, the get rid of the fiber just like uh so you only have that creamy texture of the kind of leaf that gets doing so like it. You know, since it gets this kind of cooked spinach flavor, is there a way to say you know like cooked spinach to like keep it tasting fresh but still take on something cooked? I've tried I've tried the kind of like, you know, go to raw foodish thing where you like put a little oil and salt and massage it and like uh that's there's that's good, but there's still there's still too much structure to really like uh strain it out. Yeah, so those raw food things are are based on a couple of different ideas and that is they're basically to destroy structure without heat, but it's not the same kind of s uh structure destruction you get from cooking.
+
+[11:43] It's more akin to forced wilting. It's basically all those raw food cooked vegetable things are basically forced wilting and shifting of osmotic pressure is how they work. Um but it when you're cooking something, you're actually cooking and breaking down uh, you know, the the the the pectins and uh all of those things, so it's actually a different thing. And I wouldn't think that you can get around the change in flavor. Uh but what you could do if you if you like the cooked spinach flavor in addition to the fresh flavor, you can do what I always do for blueberry things, which is all like mix some fresh back with the cooked.
+
+[12:20] Do you know what I mean? So like whenever I'm working with blueberries, like blueberry pies and blueberry tarts, I'll have my cooked blueberry component and then I'll also always put fresh blueberries back in because I really like the brightness of a fresh blueberry. But I also like the texture of the cooked blueberry goop in a pie, let's say. So you might be able to augment it. You know, do you think that would work or no?
+
+[12:40] Probably maybe 'cause I don't it's like that's the thing is when you strain it up, then I feel like it's probably gonna be straining out all the fresh stuff as well. But I don't know. I think you're gonna get some of it in there. I think I think you should try another thing you could try to do is try to get some of the uh the like the hibiscus, although it's red, bright red, you know, like that, like uh and then make a tea of that because even though it's dried and then heated in tea, it's pretty bright and then you could li mix some of that mixture back in and get some of that brightness back. Okay.
+
+[13:08] And so what do you know what c what kind of things lead to these more l I know in green vegetables or you know how like uh in spinach or in basil made when you keep them and they get kinda dark, you know they o are they oxidizing or like what's going on that really changes the flavor. Uh I don't really know what the change in flavor is ascribed to, although I will remember to ask McGee that, but most of those green things, if you remove their characteristic top notes and aromatics have a very similar cooked spinach smell. So when you ro when you do rotary evaporation on basil uh and you blend it and then after everything is sucked off you get this kind of cooked uh spinach smell and that is uh that is something that uh McGee knows exactly what it is and it it's a couple of compounds that I should remember but I can't I can't for the life of me remember what they are but a couple of compounds that give that specific smell, and all those green things have it in it. I'm gonna try to remember and the next time for next time I'll try and I'll try and uh bust back on what it is. Right.
+
+[14:10] Okay, so it's probably not something just coming from from being oxidized that you could get around by doing it in a vacuum or having some kind of shielding gas. Well, the browning is caused usually, I mean, by uh if it's turning dark, there's a bunch of things going on. There's enzymatic browning, so if you cook it quickly enough, uh if you blanch it whole without breaking it, you should be able to keep some of the green color. Then there's uh, you know, uh then there's other things like the chlorophyll can get eventually broken down, cooking long time, then it's gonna go olive grab. So there's a bunch of different color kind of changes that can happen um when you're doing it.
+
+[14:43] I'd have to look specifically at what you have to kind of see what's going on. But I wish I can remember what the flavor thing was. We'll have to ask Nastash, are you gonna remind me to ask McGee next time I took it? Yes. Yeah, you're you you're not even gonna remind it, you're not even writing it down.
+
+[14:55] You're just forgetting it. As we speak, all right, now she's now she's using her texting for good. Thank you. All right. So uh hold on second, I gotta go back to uh for a second to uh Steve, because Steve uh had his question about uh pressure cooking, right?
+
+[15:11] And so he then says uh this thing about salt. He has Steve also has a question. He says, I have a question about salt and bitterness. What is happening to the bitter flavor when you add salt to a grapefruit, for example? Is it blocking the bitterness or destroying compounds?
+
+[15:23] Uh and then he he has an experiment basically he does with tonic water, adding salt to tonic water to remove the bitterness or to change the bitterness, and then freshening up coffee, i.e. the bitterness by adding a bit of salt, but would love to know exactly what's happening. Well, Steve, I don't know that it's known for certain. Uh there are some papers that have been written about it. Uh the one that I read was the influence of sodium salts on binary mixtures of bitter tasting compounds by Keist uh 2004.
+
+[15:46] Um and they seem to indicate, he he she, they seem to indicate that um that salt is actually acting, uh the basically the ionic strength of salt is uh the the you know the the fact that it's charged is acting on at the site of your bitter receptors and altering uh how you perceive uh bitter literally altering how your taste buds perceive bitterness. Uh and the argument one of the arguments there is a study that was done a while ago where they put if they if the if you mix salt and bitter together and put it on your tongue, it is less bitter than if and then if you just add bitterness, right? But if you add bitterness to one side of your tongue and salt to the other, you could still taste uh the bitterness, basically. Uh and the thing they're showing is that you need to actually have the salt at the site where the bitter is being uh received. That argument I don't think is actually true because I don't know that your tongue can't distinguish uh like pattern of excitation.
+
+[16:36] In other words, like like if salt and bitterness are in the same area, it can modify even if it's not actually modifying your bitter receptor. But these guys have an interesting study where they they say they tested a bunch of different bitter compounds, and many of them were uh debittered slightly by salt, and mixtures of them were debittered by salt. But there's a couple of bitter compounds, uh one in particular that I can't remember the name of they checked, that salt did not affect. And so because salt was able to affect certain bitter compounds and not others, they're saying that it is not a cognitive, i.e. an like a brain integration effect uh on on salt modifying bitterness.
+
+[17:13] Rather, it is a modification of how the bitter molecules are being perceived at the taste receptor sites. Uh I still don't think that this is necessarily like slam dunk as an argument of what's going on because it could be that uh s that that certain bitter receptors are more apt to be uh cognitively interpreted along with salt as being less bitter as opposed to others. But I don't know. I haven't really read it thoroughly, but it's these guys seem to say that um that the salt is actually modifying the way your taste receptors uh taste the bitterness. But uh I'm willing to hear arguments from other people.
+
+[17:47] Yeah. Alright, with that say, why don't we go to our first commercial break? This is the way we laid down on the L train. But yeah, help me out now. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:58] Hey, yo, Black I need help. I mean to meet a leader's out of weight. Every single day, I swear I'm gonna find a better way. My enemies attest to me, this to me and grilling me. That's the day they're gonna be a beat me down repeatedly.
+
+[18:09] Imagine me. I was like a mr. Negativity, it's hard way to pack it. Now I got my crew and we are vibe to get some clear the street, shake the cops, let's go get these bombs. Sometimes I am a four.
+
+[18:26] No energy to run, but I gotta carry on resurrect myself. Lazarus, he was a man who died through the power of fate, became a rise. Open up your eyes and spot, Lazarus better. Yeah, open up your heart, your imagination. Right in on the train.
+
+[18:46] No more. Right on the train. Even trually. Yeah, shootsy groove. Shootsy groove, much like the actual L train, taking forever to get to the destination.
+
+[19:10] Get to the Dan Chorus, guys. Seriously. Seriously. Of course they would like the L train. Anyways.
+
+[19:17] Uh Ian, oh, by the way, uh, in case you weren't there before, call in your live questions to 718497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Alright, now. Ian writes in with a question on vacuumed fish. Dear Dave, I'm curious about using sous vide for raw fish portions for storage.
+
+[19:33] I've heard that this is not a good idea. I don't know from whom, but we'll talk about that in a minute. And in practice, I found that fish can develop all flavor after a few days. I'm sure it has a lot to do with freshness of the fish before packaging. I bought fish from Japan that has been packed in plastic, and it was impeccable, but it's probably been packed immediately after it was killed and prepped.
+
+[19:50] Just wondering if you have any specific information on storing fish sous vide do's and don'ts. And Ian enjoys the program. Thank you. And uh another question came in uh that I'm gonna just smack these together because they're very similar. John writes in also about vac fish, and he says, Hello, I have a quick question I'd like to pitch for tomorrow's show.
+
+[20:09] Uh I recently purchased an immersion circulator, good call. This and this weekend I would like to cook a couple of monkfish loins. I don't have a cryovac, uh, and I haven't tried this before, but from what I've heard, monkfish is a good fish for low temperature cooking. My plan is to wrap the fish in plastic and then pop it into Ziploc bags. Am I at a significant disadvantage versus vacuum sealing here?
+
+[20:27] And I was hoping to get a suggestion for an appropriate time and temperature. Thanks so much. Okay, uh, I'm gonna start with John. No, John, you are not at a disadvantage. In fact, in some ways, you're at an advantage.
+
+[20:38] I find that um in tests I've run where we vacuum fish, if you put too much of a vacuum on fish, you can affect it the texture. So I really like fish cooked either wrapped in plastic or just directly in Ziploc bags with oil. Uh I presume you're wrapping it to preserve the shape of it, and then putting it you if you wrap it in plastic wrap, a couple layers of plastic wrap, and you can go on www.cooking issues.com, low temperature primer, and check the uh ways of packing without a vacuum machine, and you can see a rolling technique. You don't need the ziploc at all, actually. You can cook it directly in a plastic wrap.
+
+[21:10] And that's a a great technique, or cooking in a ziploc is a good technique. So, in some ways, I think you're uh at an advantage for that because you're not going to destroy the texture by over vacuuming it. Uh as for um uh times and temperatures, they're kind of all over the map. Uh I haven't personally cooked month monk fish, uh so I can't tell you, but I you know, like the Juan Roca style technique, which is also I think put out by some other people, is they use a 60 degree Celsius, which is a hundred and forty degree water bath, uh, for um uh t for about t 12 to 15 minutes. Uh and this is delta T temperature.
+
+[21:44] They're not trying to cook it all the way through to that temperature. They're shooting apparently for a core temperature of about 48 degrees Celsius, which is pretty low. Uh another person cooks at about 57 degrees Celsius, which is about 135 for 30 minutes. That's not delta T and that's significantly higher. That's that's what I do like striped bass at, so that's like a really firm uh tasting.
+
+[22:04] And then another person really enjoyed 48 degrees C for one hour, which seems to me not the way I would go. Like I don't think I would like it quite that low, the monkfish. Uh I think I'd probably like it higher, closer in the 50s, but I could be I could be wrong. And I wouldn't necessarily cook monk fish for a full hour just because I think it might start breaking down. I don't know what the enzymes are like, but a lot of fish have enzymes in them that break them down if you cook them for too long and make them mushy.
+
+[22:29] Another note is that one of the reasons temperatures for fish can be so all over the map is a lot of fish go through basically two zones where they taste good. A very low temperature range where uh you know it's kind of fudgy and tran almost translucent, uh, and uh like one roca and a lot of like you know, new school people like that, but a lot of people hate those fish uh cook that way. And another one slightly higher, usually fifty for salmon it's like fifty Celsius, right there, salmon, bang, fifty. Uh that's more traditional taste, and a lot of a lot of people like that. So it can be kind of confusing.
+
+[23:00] But uh I would if I was had to do it and I only had one shot, I would probably do the 60 degrees Celsius for about 15 minutes. Obviously, it depends on how big around the uh the thing is small. That's probably for a fairly thin portion. Uh okay. Back to uh the question of fish in a vacuum bag.
+
+[23:19] Very interesting. Uh I looked up an article this morning, modified atmosphere packaging of filleted rainbow trout by Begonia Jimenez in 2002 out of Brazil. And uh basically, uh the the story is is that uh the the big flaw of her uh test, by the way. I'm assuming begonia woman, right? Yeah.
+
+[23:37] I hope. Yeah. Uh begonia with an Enya, by the way. Yeah, begonia. Anyway, uh uh slightly flawed because she doesn't give her vacuum procedure.
+
+[23:46] She just says what equipment she vacuumed it with, and all of you out there should know that uh how you apply the vacuum is vitally important to a the texture of the fish, but also how much oxygen you you remove. But basically saying that um indeed there is spoilage in the vacuum bag, there's microbial growth, even of aerobic stuff due to residual oxygen left in it. Uh you know, you you don't I'll I'll read you exactly what they said about the sensory quality of different fish. She did uh overwrapped, that's French for plastic wrap, or I guess Portuguese for plastic wrapping, vacuum packaging and map modified atmosphere packaging, where they actually introduce things like uh CO2 that actually prevent bacteria from growing rather than just removing their oxygen supply. Okay.
+
+[24:27] Uh although the vacuum packaging kept this is their sensory panel, although vacuum uh packaging kept lower levels of T bars, T that basically that's some BS acronym for oxidation, because there's no oxidation because there's less oxygen than modified atmosphere packaging. It gave rise to a faster loss of fresh fish flavor. Faster loss of fresh fish flavor intensity along with a deterioration of the visual aspect of the filet. So basically her point is that um that you still lose some of the fresh flavor of fish if it's stored for a long time in vacuum bags. But uh don't store fish for a long freaking time.
+
+[25:02] You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Like what like all this good, what are we talking about here? Get your fish, pack the fish, cook the fish, eat the fish. You know, I've always said that uh, you know, one of the problems people have is they try to get this extended shelf life and are like, hey, can I buy the fish today and then like you know, cook it next year and still okay?
+
+[25:20] No. No. No. I mean, you can get some extension of shelf life, it's true. But when you're shooting for maximum quality, don't do it.
+
+[25:30] Don't do it. All right. Uh Derek writes in with an interesting question that I don't I'm just gonna say right out of hand, I don't know the answer to. Uh cookies and creaming. Hello, everyone, I have a quick question.
+
+[25:40] In most cookie recipes, when you cream the fat, usually butter, uh, and sugar together, and that's you know, for those of you that never creamed anything, I mean I'm I'm assuming that most of uh our listeners have creamed something before, but you know, you take your your your kitchen aid brand stand mixer, or anything actually, whatever you want, and you beat the hard butter and the sugar together. Usually fork, like my mom. She you can't cream with a fork. How the heck you can't convince her otherwise. You look the whole point is to beat air into it.
+
+[26:05] You're beating air into it. How are you gonna beat air into sugar and and and and butter with with a fork? If anyone out there, please send me a video where you effectively cream butter and sugar with a fork. I like you know that you know the impossibles that are the incredibles? Yeah.
+
+[26:21] That kid Dash, who's like the fastest kid in the world, like maybe he could do it, or like some sort of like bionic super person could effectively cream with a fork. I no, yeah, I've met Ukrainians before. You cannot cream with a fork. Are you you mean like something like biscuits maybe or pie crust? No, cookies.
+
+[26:40] In freaking sane. Insane. I'm just gonna go ahead and go on record and call that insane. Anyway, uh the whole point of that is to is to add air to your cookie. And then the reason that you add the eggs-oh, oh, sorry, I didn't even finish the question yet.
+
+[26:52] Uh in most cookie recipes where you cream the fat, usually butter and sugar together, the recipe then instructs you to add egg before the flour. I screwed up recently, added the egg halfway through adding the flour. It did not seem to mess up my recipe. What's the deal? Okay.
+
+[27:06] Alright, Derek. Uh the deal is you usually add the eggs, especially in things like cakes, because the eggs can add additional uh leavening, additional air trapping while you're beating them in, as opposed to the flour, which I guess they figure it doesn't. So it's the idea of generating all of your air bubbles uh early in the process. So first creaming to create uh um volume, then adding eggs, usually one at a time to increase the volume and the evenness of the mix to get a light fluffy, aerated mixture before you add your flour uh and then bake it, right? Boom.
+
+[27:34] That's the reason. Now, if A, your recipe doesn't need a lot of extra aeration, or like you don't want to marinated, you know what I mean? What? Like cookie, you know, like for instance, like when I'm making a brownie, right? When I'm making a brownie, uh you get to choose the texture based on how you how you do it.
+
+[27:51] You can go from basically like dense, like fudge master general brownie by melting your butter all the way up to creaming and then beating your egg and proper then folding your flour. You know, you can do a wide range of textures based on on your creaming and or egg adding procedure. So I'm assuming that uh with your recipe, if I first of all, I don't think that when you add the egg is gonna matter, like even like a speck, unless you're beating it enough after you add the egg to full to aerate it more. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense, Nastash?
+
+[28:14] Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And also, I think adding the egg is going to help you incorporate the flour, but on something like a cookie where there's so little moisture anyway, it's not like you're going to develop gluten. You can hit it hard enough to get all of the flour in uh to the recipe without developing gluten. So I think it really is not going to matter much unless you want it for an aeration effect, which I don't think is going to be a big deal in many cookies.
+
+[28:39] What do you think? I think you're right. All right. Score one for me. Alright, now, uh question in from Eve.
+
+[28:48] Uh Eve uh Bergazen, who, by the way, is was a co-student, what do you call it? Classmate of uh our former intern, Tim Oogama. Ugamugga, Ugamaga. Remember Ugama? Yeah.
+
+[29:01] Yeah. Or we we call him Ojima, like Haihachi. Anyway, whatever. He was he looked like tall dude, looks looks kind of Amish, although he isn't, and like and like made fireworks. Really?
+
+[29:11] Yeah, I saw him recently. Tim. Anyway. Hello, Tim, if you're listening. Uh, and Eth.
+
+[29:16] Uh, I'm a graduate of the SEI Culinary Arts program. I work in the pastry department, a craft restaurant. I have an idea and I'm wondering how to execute it. A cold torch. Is there a way to take a tank of liquid nitrogen, a small tank, so that's portable like a blowtorch, and figure out a way to project it into a small stream, much like a blowtorch.
+
+[29:32] It'd be cool to create frozen shells around things. Do you have experience with something like this? Okay. Uh I do not have experience, although there are people that do have experience. What you want to look up is something called a bry mill can, B-R-Y-M, I think, I L L.
+
+[29:45] And they're used by uh dermatologists to freeze warts on people. It's a technique called like cryosurgery or anything like that. And it's basically it looks like a little oil gun, but it's a little liquid nitrogen canister, and you get different nozzles, and it sprays uh small amounts of liquid nitrogen to freeze uh small surface areas. A similar technique was used by uh the Arzaks, you know, Juan Marie Arsac and and uh and et al. Uh where they were basically freezing spots on plates so that they would have a hot plate, they would freeze one spot on the plate and put like an ice cream on that and a hot thing on the rest of the plate so that the you could have a nice hot plate for your whatever and then a cold section for your ice cream on like savory ice creams plated out.
+
+[30:26] Uh they were also using it to inject into chocolate to make these like weird chocolate balloon uh shapes. If you wanted some serious chilling though, uh these are like spot chillers. You're gonna want to get something called a snow horn, snow horn. And what they are is basically you hook them up to a CO2 tank and they just spray out like a like a fog of like hyper cold CO2, and that that's used for kind of flash freezing things. Look up Snowhorn.
+
+[30:51] I think they might be loud. I don't know. I don't have one. They're not that expensive. We could get one.
+
+[30:56] What do you think? Yeah. Weren't we gonna use uh liquid nitrogen to help people with their warts when we were in strapped for cash or sperm bank or something like that? That was your idea. It's it's Nestas always sitting there thinking, like, we got no money.
+
+[31:07] I can't. You know, uh a friend of mine, uh a friend of mine had a medical procedure, and so he uh and it was wiped out his uh it wiped out his his uh sperm because it was bone marrow transplant. And so they had to save his sperm in liquid nitrogen. And he, like like me, has a problem with like you know, paying attention to things like bills, so they kept on sending him messages. We're gonna thaw out your sperm.
+
+[31:30] We're gonna kill your your future offspring if you don't pay. And he didn't pay. And he got the note, like he like he got a stack of them all at once, and he opened them, and like the last one was like, Alright, you know, this is it, we're gonna do it. And it's like it was like dated, like, you know, like saying that they were gonna do it on a Friday, and he read it on a Saturday, and he was like, no, no. So he ran in person on Monday, and they luckily he like hadn't thawed the stuff out.
+
+[31:58] He paid his his back sperm storage fees and has uh two lovely children now. Anyway, uh Kevin from Virginia Beach uh writes in uh I heard on this past week's show uh that uh that you and I, Nastasha U and I uh and McGee were having troubles writing in the rain. I've used Right in the Rain, and that's spelled uh R I T by the R-I T E Right in the Rain uh products pretty extensively, and I can vouch that they work as advertised. As for getting your labels to stick to the wet fruit, good luck. You know, Kevin, you're exactly right.
+
+[32:29] I have Right in the Rain uh lab notebooks. Uh I've been using them for a while. Uh Wiley Dufrein's been using them in the kitchen for a while, and he actually gave me some. I think he got them before I did, and he like likes to give them to his cooks and then throw them into stockpots to make fun of them because they don't get all messed up. Uh they do make great products.
+
+[32:46] Uh and I actually ha had one uh in, but it was packed in my freaking bag. It wasn't with me in the place, and plus Nastasha writes the notes, and she refuses to carry a right in the rain product around. How can you carry the room? You've never given it like a whole stacking to use it for the diary in the city. People out there, people out there listening.
+
+[33:04] Here's what happened. I have a stack of write in the rain stuff, which are meant to be cooking notebooks for your kitchen, right? And she's like, Okay, can I write this uh rip this paper out and use it a post-it note? I'm like, no, no, no, we have stacks of post-it notes. That's what happened.
+
+[33:18] Uh, you know, who are you gonna believe? Who are you gonna believe? Me. Yeah, right, sure. All right.
+
+[33:24] Maybe for people that haven't met the both of us, they would believe you on this. Jack, who do you believe? I'm not gonna get them into it. I'm not gonna get them into it. No, don't no comment.
+
+[33:32] Yeah, no comments. I have no peep with the nostalgia these days. Uh uh. Uh and then before I get to uh the related question, because uh Kevin wants to know uh whether or not there we have any uh recommendations for must-visit food enthusiast destinations similar to the fruit and spice park. Kevin, I'm gonna get back to that.
+
+[33:50] But uh uh Rolf Wind writes in on the same question uh and he says uh in the most recent issues uh uh cooking issues radio broadcast, Dave ranted about the need for weatherproof fruit labeling technology. And he goes, I believe that this technology already exists. Small portable tattooing devices are used to label rodent tails in laboratory settings for animal identification, sometimes just to make them look like badasses. The labels are essentially permanent, labeling is quick to perform. If 200 hour uh mice per hour can be achieved, imagine the number of mangoes one could tattoo.
+
+[34:19] True story, true story. And orchard-friendly battery, uh battery operated systems are available. Their fruit compatibility is suggested by the fact that thick skinned, even waxy fruits are often used as stand-ins for animals during operator training. One of the many examples of this equipment can be found at AnimalID.com. Happy inking, keep up the good work.
+
+[34:37] Uh all right, well, uh, and by the way, that was addressed to Dear Miss Hammer, which I enjoyed. Anyway, Rolf, I love this suggestion, and you got me thinking about a bunch of different things here. Uh the one that you pointed to is the ATS-3 general rodent tattoo system. The problem with it is it's about three grand. And a like cursory view of uh eBay led me to believe uh that they're not widely available on the eBay.
+
+[35:02] I uh maybe I don't know how to how to anyway, like like different combinations of rodents and tattoos, other than tattoos of rodents, don't like show up so much on eBay. Uh so I don't know whether or not I'm I'm searching it uh wrong. But uh I did a quick search, and you can buy a battery-operated tattoo pen, right? You can spend as much as $150 or $200 on one that's professional, but they make one called like ra rabbit it, rabbit it, rabbit it, something like that, rabbit it, like a tattoo pen. It's battery operated, right?
+
+[35:32] And it's got like some sort of like you know, a lifetime guarantee. I haven't seen how waterproof it is, right? But it's just like you know, you take a triple A battery, you put a little ink in it, take it out in the orchard, and you could. I mean, I've never have you used a tattoo pen before? No.
+
+[35:44] Yeah, I have friends who do this for a living. I should ask them like use one. Okay, you're supposed to practice on something like a banana, right? So if we got an ink that didn't bleed too much into the fruit, I mean I'm assuming they use I think like some version of like you know, India ink or something, something nice black, you know, food grade. It's called human grade.
+
+[36:01] How's that is that better or worse than food grade? Human grade. I don't know. Anyway, uh I'm assuming you can just sit there and write the name of the fruit out. What do you think?
+
+[36:10] Yeah. I'm gonna buy one. Rabbit it. It's only that's like I think it's like 40 bucks or something like that. Yeah, anyway, Rolf, thank you so much for putting us on this correct line of thinking because I'm definitely not gonna spend three thousand dollars to tattoo my fruit.
+
+[36:23] But unless someone gives you one. Yeah, if someone gives me like a three thousand dollar fruit tattooing, I'm gonna say yes. Then uh, you know, not gonna turn that down. Um right? Yeah.
+
+[36:34] Okay. Uh now uh to finish this out, another thing we had last week uh that was interesting was I spent a good number of minutes uh insulting uh insulting the uh like science's ability to recreate meat via 3D printing technologies. And literally the day after that, right? The day after that, uh, Nastasha and I had a meeting with uh a a person who helped uh in the co-founding of a company called uh organovo, organovo, right? Organovo.
+
+[37:05] And what organovo does to give you some background is they can do things like grow blood vessels, whole blood vessels, right? And so most of the meat printing technology, what they'll do is they build a scaffold of collagen and then let meat cells grow into that scaffold. And that is to me, as far as food preparation, gross. It's not gonna make good food. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:29] Uh it's not gonna make a good meat substitute. And that's basically what I was ranting against. And also, anyway, well, well, we'll get it. Before I finish- I'm gonna because I'm gonna start ranting again. So wait a minute.
+
+[37:37] So these guys actually print undifferentiated or partially differentiated cells, get them to bind together, they differentiate, and they turn into actual organs like blood vessels that they can graft in if you need a coronary artery transplant, let's say, right? And I was like, holy crap, I had no idea you could do this. Did you know they could do that? I was totally shocked. Crazy, crazy they can do this.
+
+[37:59] They also make human meat tissue not to eat, although they could. They make it because uh drug companies want uh human tissue to test out uh drugs on, and so it's very it's you know much better than using mice tissue or pig tissue, and you know, don't worry, no humans killed, blah blah blah. Anyway, and so he came to us and said, Well, what do you think about the idea that we could print meat? And he's like, I can print out actual muscles in like shape and the way the muscles are made with fat marbling and all that. I have my doubts as to whether it's possible, but if it's possible, is clearly the closest that uh anyone has ever even attempted to get to actually print out something that I would consider food.
+
+[38:42] Because as I said last week, most meat substitutes, it's all about like reproducing some sort of overcooked, horrible, like monotextural pablum crap. You know what I mean? But these guys are saying they can actually do it and then you know, and without killing the animal. So you could, you know, i if they could get uh I'm still have I don't understand scientifically how that they would do things like uh correct for what the animal ate or uh the different enzyme uh makeup that is in a cell based on how long it's been in the animal, because uh I think it said like like let's say you're using a pig to make uh ham. Older pigs have better uh have better um enzyme makeups for making ham.
+
+[39:22] In other words, the muscle breaks down differently. So a ham from an older pig, not just because of fat content or because of myoglobin or any of those things, but simply because of the fact that it's older is gonna make a different ham than a younger younger pig. So I don't know how they're gonna, you know, do things like that. Meat is some complicated business. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[39:39] Uh so I I don't know whether that's actually possible to correct for, but if they could, then uh, you know, we could all have manatee steaks. You know, one of my goals is to have a a cruelty-free manatee steak because I told you about this, right? Yeah. Yeah, because manatee, right. I I'm not advocating hurting manatees, please, please do not say that I'm advocating hurting manatees.
+
+[39:58] I'm not, but uh in a in in his book, The Unnatural History of the Sea, uh, the author whose name I forget basically says that we've actually been making animals go extinct for a long, long time. It hasn't been, you know, just recently. Uh and one of his favorite examples is this thing called stellar sea cow, which was uh named after an explorer stellar, and it basically these sea cows are manatees, you know, manatee relatives. And so there's this island in the Pacific where the these manatees were just sitting eating kelp, right? Kelp, you know, kelp forest.
+
+[40:28] So there's big cows like grazing on kelp under the ocean, and they're sitting there. And it's like you know, in a lagoon. So like you could basically look down and see them. And here's the messed up thing, right? No natural enemies.
+
+[40:38] For some reason, this like ecological niche had developed. Uh, and I believe this is like 16 or 1700s is when this was happening. Uh that I can't remember exactly. And so here it is, these things sitting there, herbivores, right? In herds under the water, right?
+
+[40:53] Fresh. And uh, and no enemies. And here they had one downfall. They were delicious, delicious. So people said that that nothing tasted as good.
+
+[41:03] And you know, as well, I don't know, because they're on a ship and they've been eating salted meat for you know months, so who who knows? You know what I mean? It's kind of like when raw food people say something's delicious and they've only had raw food for a week, so if it doesn't taste like literally awful, it's awesome. You know what I mean? So it's hard to tell.
+
+[41:17] But these guys were basically saying that these were the best uh animals in the world because they had no predators, you would like harpoon one, and then like the guy next to them would be like, what was that? Because they're not used to getting killed. And so they didn't even run away. So you could sit there and like you know, kind of butcher them at will, which is awful, awful. Anyway, so it's one of the it was uh made extinct in a in a you know matter of a few short decades because it was delicious.
+
+[41:40] But ever since that, of course, because I'm perverse, my idea is man, I wonder what those things tasted like. So these guys, these guys can get you the cruelty-free manatee steak cooking issues. Fishes, fish. Oh, you daddy wrap. Got me on this corner.
+
+[42:12] And I don't know where I'm at. Figure on the Pole and City Winery are proud to present the Summer Barbecue Blowout Festival, August 6th from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at City Winery, located at 155 Varrick Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire Mayonnaise, Van Dag, Momofuco Mofar, Imperial No. 9, My Land, Mexico, Craft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, The Meatball Shop, and Dose Torres.
+
+[42:42] Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, Pewter Magic, New Villager, Punches, Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ. VIP and General Admission tickets are available at CityWinery.com. Finger on the Pole for City Winery, we'd like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Foods USA, New York magazine, Rake of vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City, Sub Zero and Wolf. Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.fotpnyc.com.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] If you're a therapist listening, you already know your work doesn't magically end when the session does. There's scheduling, notes, billing, insurance follow-ups, all of the admin that happens before and after the work you actually care about. That's where Simple Practice comes in. Simple Practice is an all-in-one EHR built specifically for therapists with HIPAA compliant tools and high trust certification. No juggling systems or cutting corners just to keep things moving.
+
+[0:26] Scheduling, documentation, billing, insurance, client communication, even automated appointment reminders. It all lives in one place. And if you're starting or growing a practice, Simple Practice also offers a credentialing service that helps simplify insurance enrollment, which can be a huge lift alone. It's no surprise Simple Practice is trusted by over 250,000 health and wellness professionals. Start with a seven-day free trial, then get 50% off your first three months.
+
+[0:55] Go to Simplepractice.com to claim the offer. That's Simplepractice.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Hear directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[1:25] The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The Fairway label Honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do.
+
+[1:40] This makes for a great tasting, high-quality honey at an amazing value with the Fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels. It's a no-brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
+
+[2:10] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Joined as always in the studio with Nastasha De Hammer Lopez. Call all of your cooking or non-cooking related. We'll take anything, right?
+
+[2:23] Yeah. Do you have any subjects you want them to talk about today? No. No, no random questions you want? No.
+
+[2:28] No? What stores maybe Nastasha likes to shop in? Things of this material. And return things too. Return.
+
+[2:33] I wasn't gonna bring it up. No, no, we're not going. I wasn't gonna go. I wasn't gonna go there. But if anyone wants to call in and go there, please go there.
+
+[2:39] Call in all of your questions too. 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I still haven't memorized that thing, you know, Nastasha. I still have to have you write it out every single time.
+
+[2:49] I know. And if you're not here, I have to have Jack Sane on the air. Wow. Good stuff, huh? Yeah.
+
+[2:54] Jack, I think uh we're gonna leave the uh the uh break music in your hands today. Maybe you can nice pick some good stuff. He seems to be coming up with some good stuff recently, right? He does. I'm on a roll.
+
+[3:02] Oh, he is, he totally is. What was the one you came up with last time? That was really good. Some uh training. Oh, the L train song, yeah.
+
+[3:09] Nastash was the late one last week. Usually I'm the late one. Well, good news is you beat Nastasha here again today. I know, it's because we're we're reversing roles. How awful would that be?
+
+[3:19] Oh my god. Anyway, glad to say that Cooking Issues the Blog is back on a roll with a uh we finally I finally got the fruit post out. Looks good. It's good, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[3:28] Now all I have to do is write the second part of the fruit post. The centrifuge post, the lime juice post, the uh how many of the sous videos. TV primer post, the uh how many other posts do I have that I have not yet written? Knots. Well, the knots, that's from like years ago.
+
+[3:44] I have posts from like years ago I haven't written. Not only that, before we get on to the uh actual topics of the day. Oh, Nastasha says, why am I sweating profusely? Oh, I said wipe your face. Oh, wipe my face.
+
+[3:56] Yes, well, I biked here in the beautiful Brooklyn weather today, which is um it's it's like it's raining up from the ground. It's like the ground is raining up into the sky. That's how humid it is. And what's awesome about biking in that kind of weather, when it's really hot, is your body can't cool it off from science. It's awesome.
+
+[4:13] But I am I am uh I'm collecting all of my sweat in a pool here on the floor. Maybe we can make a small swimming pool out of it. Hopefully I don't jack short out all of your equipment. Uh anyways, uh what were we talking about before that? Posts you have to write the blogs back.
+
+[4:26] Yeah, but oh uh I have a not that I have time for this because I don't, but I have a new, I have a new blog that I'm also not gonna update. I bought I ain't messing around.com. And what else? Uh I ain't fling around.com. I bought that too, although that one's not safe for work.
+
+[4:43] But so like I had this idea that the problem with cooking issues, right? Many problems with cooking issues, but one of the problems of cooking issues is is that I can't uh seem to do anything short, and I have to spend like 15 hours of research every time I even write three words because I'm a jerk. I'm an idiot. You know what I mean? Like my my sister-in-law Miley Carpenter, who's married to uh my so my wife's sister Miley, wife is also a badass.
+
+[5:06] Miley runs the Food Network magazine. I mean, she's I mean she's the editor in chief. She started it, she founded it. Total badass. Uh, you know, anyways, she's married to Wiley Dufrain, so it's pretty hardcore, hardcore family I got.
+
+[5:19] Miley has always been able to just research what she needs to know and write a great article. Why can't we all be like Miley? I guess if we were all like Miley, we'd all be extremely successful journalists and editors. Guess that's why we're not like Miley. Anyway, so the whole point of this new thing was that it wouldn't be food related, and I can write anything I want.
+
+[5:36] For instance, how much I want you to wear your damn helmet when you're biking across the Williamsburg Bridge, or how you should keep your hands on the handlebars when you're biking in the street, and there's lots of pedestrians walking around. Things like that, right? Yeah. Have you seen the jerk going across the Williamsburg Bridge on his fixed gear bike, and he takes his feet off the freaking pedals when he's going downhill? Where does he put them?
+
+[5:56] He puts them on the top tube. For those of you who don't know what a fixed gear bike is, it's a bike where the the pedals are actually linked to the gear such that every time the wheel moves, the pedal moves. There's no freewheeling, there's no coasting. And so the idea is you're supposed to stay in touch with the road because your feet keep moving, and this guy's like, hey, I'm too lazy, and I want to go faster down the bridge, so I'm gonna take my feet off the pedals. Moron.
+
+[6:16] There are people walking down that thing, even on the bike side with baby carriages. Now they're morons too. But I mean, seriously. Anyway, so that's the kind of stuff you have to look forward to. The guy with the fixed gear probably ends up here.
+
+[6:31] Little Robertus hipster joke for you. Anyway, so uh hey, no offense to the fixies out there. I ride a fixed gear bike, but I keep my feet on the pedals and I have both brakes, alright? Because I'm not in it for the first of all, I have the least sexy bike on earth. Anyway, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry.
+
+[6:45] We're gonna we're gonna run out of time if I don't. Oh, one more thing. Next week is the uh is the year. Next week, Nathan Mirval live on Cooking Issues Radio. You're gonna call in your questions for Nathan Mirvold.
+
+[6:57] What? Is that you? Oh my god. You know what happens, folks? This is first and last time you'll hear my telephone go off during the broadcast.
+
+[7:04] The uh deal is my kids turn uh play angry birds on my iPad iPhone and they turn the sound back on. Anywho, I apologize for that seven minute rant uh uh uh of nothing. But uh I would hope you would call in your questions right now to 7184972128, that's 7184972128. But if not, at least call in. Make me look good for Miraval, will you, people?
+
+[7:24] Will you call in? And there's free giveaways. Oh, yeah, free giveaways. Like maybe, I don't know, like a modernist cuisine apron that's signed by those guys. What else we give in, are we giving me?
+
+[7:33] Maybe the book. No. Nastasha says maybe the book's what they're gonna call in. Listen, please don't get your hopes out. This is what I love about Nastasha and Hate, is that she'll sit here and lie.
+
+[7:45] It's not really a lie, it's her hope. But it's just not gonna happen. But she has this way in her head of turning hope, trying to turn hope into reality. Yes. Like when we got uh Merle Haggard to skull, she's like, Well, uh, we want him to school, maybe he will.
+
+[7:57] And he did, but in this case, I don't think so. I th you know I think the modernist cuisine. If Jesus came down and said, Nathan, can I have a free copy of the book? Nathan would say, You're Jesus, you can afford it. Am I right about this?
+
+[8:10] We have an autographed apron here. We have the autographed apron. It's gonna be awesome. By the way, that's not a slight to Mirvold. Did that seem like a slight to Mirvold?
+
+[8:18] It's not a slight, that's just the way I talk. Right. When I'm not in the air, probably I I'll go back to my professional tone. All right. Talk so long with my iPad shut off.
+
+[8:25] Okay. Ben Bennett writes in, says, Why not twist tie something to the fruit? We're talking about the tattooing fruit from last week and the week before. Uh it was, I believe his name, I forget, Rolf Wind, I think was the person who uh Rolf, right? Yeah.
+
+[8:38] Wind who uh came in. And I tried to Google him. I think he's a like a a pharmacy uh like a pharmacy researcher and a cyclist, an avid cyclist. I bet he wears a helmet. Mm-hmm.
+
+[8:47] Anyway, um, I was told in the Netherlands they don't wear helmets, and I was like, it's because their bikes weigh eight thousand pounds and they do two miles an hour on those flat roads. Yeah, I mean it's like anyway, whatever. Okay, uh instead of using a tattoo gun, which is what Rolf said, I would get a bunch of plastic twit twist ties, twist, twist ties in a bunch uh of colors, write numbers down on them with a sharpie before you go out in the field, and then tag a fruit with a numbered twist tie, and then that way you have to keep track of what's going on with my right in the rain notebook, which we all agree right in the rain notebooks are good things. Uh I have one in my bag right now. Or do the same thing with pre-numbered plastic bags.
+
+[9:21] That's a good idea, like Ziplocks or whatever, uh, rather than twist ties. All right, seems less complex than a tattoo gun, but less cool. Definitely less cool. I've tried various things like bags and whatnot. Here's what happens.
+
+[9:35] Whenever you're out in the field, everything turns to crap. This is what I've noticed. Like you're out there, you're tasting things, you're sticky, you have fruit paste all over you because Nastasha's blown some sort of nasty fruit out of her mouth, and she hasn't looked where she's spitting and it gets all over your shirt. You know, juices are dripping down your hands, you're like it's raining, there's bugs everywhere, and you're trying to get the fruit into your bag. Correct, this is true, right?
+
+[9:56] Yeah. This is how it works. And so, you know, we tried many things. The last time, uh, and you'll see the post, uh, you know, the mango thing, you know, if should I ever write it, uh, that comes up is uh the one thing that ended up working at the end was c literally carving the name of the fruit into the fruit with a pen knife, which is a pain in the butt. Uh, but uh I'll tell you this.
+
+[10:16] We will we will try these various things because how are you gonna get the twist tie to stay around the fruit? Depends on the fruit. I thought about that. Depends on the fruit. It has a stem or something.
+
+[10:22] I mean, you can shove something through the fruit, but then it's gonna damage it. Anyway, listen to this, uh, Ben and Rolf. I purchased uh a rabbit tattoo gun called the Easy Tat. There's a competitor, I think, made by the same company called the Rabbit Cat. And uh I purchased one for 50 bucks, and uh, it's a little tattoo gun, and it works.
+
+[10:40] I this I got it last night, I tried it this morning on some lemons. I have to try some other fruits. On lemons, it's really hard to see the tattoo without ink. And I think filling up with ink is a pain in the butt. But what you can do is tattoo it and then like rub an ink stamp over it real quick and rub it and the tattoo stays there.
+
+[10:58] I'm trying to think of real simple, real waterproof. I don't want to have to carry a liquid ink with me because that's not gonna work. I have a feeling on more delicate fruits like mangoes or fruits that oxidize like apples, that I'll be able to read it fine without ink. The lemon, if you let it sit around for a while and the skin starts drying off, and you hold a shine of light on it, you can see where the tattoo was even without ink. So I am working on it, but I think for 50 bucks, I'm going to Colombia soon, and I hope to pick up some crazy fruits in the markets at Columbia.
+
+[11:25] I'm gonna carry my easy tat uh on the uh trip with me and see whether or not I can label some fruits. So we'll get some real world world tests of this and we'll see if we can get a good uh test for uh fruit heads in, right? Mm-hmm. What do you think? On a similar note, uh there is I'm trying to find it because I'm a moron.
+
+[11:44] Hold on. Uh uh uh uh Joshua Rosenwasser just moved from Tampa, Florida to Antigua, and he wants to know whether there's any kind of wild edibles he can forage for down there in Antigua. Well, uh, oh well, Joshua, uh the here's the one problem. I've never been to the Caribbean in my whole life, and one of the reasons is is because I think I mentioned uh several times I hate paradise. Uh I hate it.
+
+[12:10] Like, you know, like really nice beaches uh and sun. It's horrible, horrible. But I'm sure if you go out into the forest, it's gonna be, you know, or the you know, whatever they have there, it's gonna be nice. I did some preliminary research for you, and there's one of the problems is is that Antigua appears to be one of the driest of those islands. So even though they have some tropical fruits growing on those islands, they tend to import a lot of them from kind of wetter uh neighbors where they have a wider range of stuff that they can grow.
+
+[12:37] So I wish I could be more of help. But I remember that a couple weeks ago, somebody asked a question. I answered the first half of their question and then spun off into a tangent, and their question was very rightly so. Where are other places that you can go forage, not forage, but go to to taste things other than the fruit and spice park? Well, uh, I forget who asked it, but I'm glad you asked, I'm gonna lump in with the question here.
+
+[12:58] Uh I'll just tell you first the places that I've already gone, uh, some with most with Nastasha, uh, went to the Geneva, uh, the Geneva, New York, uh, the Agricultural Extension Geneva York, which is an extension of Cornell, but it's also linked up with the federal government. That has all of uh the the largest collection of apples in the world. Uh it also has a decent collection of other things like uh grapes uh and whatnot, and it's fairly easy to get in there and run rampant like a lunatic, like pretty easy, right? Uh another one uh that uh Nastasha and I went to that we uh blogged about was the uh Brogdale collection. Uh it's the uh it's in Kent in Faversham, and uh it is amazing.
+
+[13:41] It has the largest culinary apple collection as opposed to just apple collection, has a huge collection of pears, has a huge collection of currants and other small fruits, has an amazing selection of cherries, also of plums, and I believe uh filberts, filbert nuts, and a smattering of other of other things. And it's also that one is open to the public, you just go, they don't want you to go in there and take the fruit off the trees. I think for insurance reasons, but just do it anyway. Just go steal all the fruits anyway. That's where I would go.
+
+[14:09] Uh then uh if you're friends with uh a guy named Gene Lester in um in uh in California in Watsonville, that's the best citrus collection we've ever been to. You can if you join the California Flu Fruit Explorers, I think is the name of it, or California Rare Fruits, one of those. If you join them, you get invited to the yearly thing at Gene Lester's uh ranch, and you can eat as much as you want there. Uh I want to go to Corvalis, which is uh in um Portland, and that's where our collection of pears and berries is. Apparently, one of the greatest collections of pears and berries in the world.
+
+[14:39] I want to go there. Uh there's a couple of places I know uh Nastasha wants to go. There's a couple of great botanical gardens, I think, in the Ukraine, right? In Kiev, I want to go to. Uh you know, I want to go to Kazakhstan where it's natural.
+
+[14:50] Where else am I forgetting? There's tons of places I want to go. Anyway, if any of you guys can think of some good places that we haven't gone, I want to go. I want to go to the New York Botanical Garden, which I go to all the time. They have one of the world's largest collect uh collection of alliums, onions and garlic.
+
+[15:02] Can you can you eat them? I doubt you can eat them there. Well, you take them and you cook them. I mean you wouldn't eat them raw. No, no, no, but they let you take them.
+
+[15:10] Well, I don't know. You gotta get the right, it's all about getting the right person on the phone. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's just if you get the right person on the phone, everything's good. If you get the wrong person on the phone, life is terrible.
+
+[15:19] Anyway, uh, second part of uh second part of Joshua's question was uh they have a lot of uh callaloo, callow is a big recipe uh recipe, you know, slash green down in the Caribbean, which are the tops of tarot plants, but also known locally as spinach and is abundant and cheap. Are there any recipes besides a standard long simmer with thyme and onions? Uh, you know, look I don't have a lot of experience uh with it, but it's not only tarot they use for that, that you can use like a bunch of different greens. And basically, I wish I could help you here, but I want someone else to call in and give us some good recipes. Basically, it's just greens simmered for a whole hell of a long time with uh usually with some sort of allium and spices, and then either blended to make the smooth soup.
+
+[16:00] You can also add some salt pork or bacon or whatever, or or seafood or crab, or you can keep it like a stew and keep it chunky. I mean, I think anything that you could do with greens with a soup, you could do with that, or with like nettle, because the thing with if you do use taro uh leaves, which is you know dashin, if you use that, you need to cook it because uh it's otherwise toxic. Which leads me to another awesome toxic plant, which was first brought I forget who told me about it. Crap. Anyway, called Mayan spinach.
+
+[16:26] We saw that in the fruit and spice park in the poisonous plant section. It it has uh it'll kill you. Cyanide poisoning if you eat it raw, but if you cook it, it apparently is one of the most nutritious greens in the world. Chaya. Love to try it.
+
+[16:38] We should have stolen like you know what the problem is when we were down there, we had no kitchen, we couldn't cook anything. Yeah, we did. No, we no, we didn't, not not after that day. Yeah, yeah, we did after that first day. So I should have stolen, I should have stolen a bunch of that stuff and cooked it.
+
+[16:51] That was the next cooked. I'm an idiot. Next time, next time. Well, you know, it was just raining like cats and dogs, and we were doing that event with uh with uh Jeremiah Bullfrog at the from Gastropod down in Miami, so we were much more worried about what we're gonna do for that event than what we were gonna have for dinner that night, which is stupid. You should always worry about what you're gonna have for dinner that night.
+
+[17:09] We had a good dinner. We cooked fish. We had an oak, yeah, we had an okay dinner. I would say it was a great dinner. Remember, it took us eight years to get the charcoal lift.
+
+[17:17] Because it was like, you know, the charcoal was basically like soaking wet. Anyways, let's go to our first commercial break. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Here I come.
+
+[17:37] You can have on a couple. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Chris Gibb from Toronto, Canada.
+
+[18:34] For some reason I wrote Toronto, California on my on my iPad, but it's not Toronto's not in California, it's in Canada. About fixing vacuum machines. Hey Dave, I've come across a vacuum machine that isn't working properly, and I want to buy it cheaply and fix it. It runs through a cycle normally until it's about to release the vacuum. This is when it makes a loud noise and starts again from the beginning and just keeps going through this cycle until you turn it off.
+
+[18:55] I was wondering if you had any ideas or if you think it's hopeless. Any thoughts on this would be awesome. Thanks. Huh, that's an interesting problem. Um it sounds like it's probably uh fairly easy to fix.
+
+[19:08] The good thing is that the important part of a vacuum machine is the motor, right? Is the vacuum pump. That's expensive. So if it's a real vacuum machine, we're talking by the way, folks, about a chamber vacuum machine, I assume, a professional vacuum machine, and they start, the smallest ones start at like 1500, 2000 bucks. They go up to about four grand for ones you normally get in a restaurant, right?
+
+[19:29] So they're they're not cheap. And if the pump is working and sucking a vacuum, if it's actually sucking a vacuum, right, you've won most of the battle, right? Now here's what I would check out first. I can't tell exactly what's going on because it's not like a normal situation of uh troubleshooting wise, it's not normal. I wouldn't expect it to do exactly that.
+
+[19:48] I would expect it to um make a loud noise and then not start again unless there's something weird going on. I wouldn't expect it to start again until it had evacuated. Here's what sounds like might be happening. There's a when what happens in a vacuum machine is you close the lid, the vacuum cycle starts, it sucks out all the air. After it sucks out the air and it's done sucking the vacuum, it stops sucking the vacuum, it puts the seal bar up and seals your bag.
+
+[20:14] After which it lets the air back into the machine, and or sometimes it has gas flush, right, which puts gas back in, right? Uh, and and then and then there you go. So any one of those things could be wrong. If it's sucking a vacuum, you know you're good, right? Then if it seals the bag, you know it at least makes it to that part in the cycle.
+
+[20:32] It sounds if it's making a loud noise, either sh maybe it's trying to do a gas flush and it can't because the gas flush is plugged if it has a gas flush. The other thing that could be going wrong is that the uh air release valve could be broken, right? In which case it's not releasing the air properly. Any one of those things could be going wrong. Assuming that it's not one of those things, uh, and it's a problem with the electronics board, the electronics board is is a lot harder to fix.
+
+[20:56] You can get new electronics boards, but even if you have like minor electrical skills and you don't want to actually fix the electronics, you can just hardwire the thing to basically turn it on and then press stop and just bypass all the circuitry and run all the stuff manually, right? Because it's all basically just solenoid valves that you can run off the thing. So I would say either one of the solenoids that's venting the thing is broken, or you have an electronics problem, or you have a blockage in one of the lines. Any one of those things seems a lot easier than fixing the pump. What do you think, Nastasha?
+
+[21:23] Yes, I think that's right. Because we have a machine that was given to Nastasha by Mark Ladner from Del Posto. That's really nice. And the pump starts up, but the sucker doesn't start a vacuum, which means they need to rebuild the whole vacuum pump. Now that's a pain in the patoot, right?
+
+[21:36] What'd the guy say was gonna cost us? Like 250 labor. Yeah, no, you see, that's the thing. This is Nastasha hoping against hope. 250 to show up.
+
+[21:44] It's 250 to hang his hat on the inside of our door, right? That's 250 bucks. Then another like whatever, an hour to sit there and go, Yeah, that's broken. Yeah, it's broken, right? And then, and then here's the other one.
+
+[21:58] Oh, I don't have those pots right now. I don't have those. No. I gotta order those pots. Right?
+
+[22:03] And then another charge when he comes back with the parts, plus taking the thing apart. Right? I mean, come on, we all know how this stuff goes. Anyway, uh no offense to the vacuum repair people out there. All right.
+
+[22:16] And I want to hear someone saying that Dave is prejudiced against vacuum machine repair people. Yeah, you know what maybe did. Maybe pooped his pants. Maybe, maybe. Old old expression, please don't ask.
+
+[22:28] Okay. Hey, we got a thank you from uh Mike who wrote in a couple weeks ago. We were talking about marshmallows. He was having problems with his marshmallow sticking, and says that what we said on the air actually helped him out. That's awesome.
+
+[22:40] Yeah, hey, right? Jack's happy, we're like a happy customer. We have at least one. We have one person that we have helped. Right, yeah.
+
+[22:49] Everything's finally worth it. Good, good. All right. Uh Henry Schwartz writes in with some sous-vide and uh low temperature questions. In case there's anyone who happened to just tune in and was trying to tune in to the wrong radio station but listened to us and doesn't know what low temperature cooking is.
+
+[22:59] Low temperature in Sous vide is any time. Sous vide is any time you have something packaged in a vacuum bag, right? No matter what temperature you use. Could be boiling bag, could be uh could be low temperature, could just be in your refrigerator. That's Sous vide.
+
+[23:14] Low temperature is when you're instead of using a high temperature like an oven uh at like 300 degrees to cook something, you use something like a water bath that's almost exactly the same temperature you want to cook to. So I want to cook a steak to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, I set my water bath to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, and I usually cook inside of a bag, plastic bag or something like that. That's that's low temperature cooking. So here's what uh Harry Schwartz has to say. I'm an amateur cook who love to try new techniques.
+
+[23:40] I did a summer cooking camp for kids in the neighborhood, and the parents pitched in to buy me a Sous vide Supreme machine. Nice parents, good job. Uh home version of what you guys use. The Sous vide Supreme is the one that doesn't circulate. It's basically a uh a temperature controlled water bath.
+
+[23:53] I think it's about 500 bucks. I've never used them. Someone suggested your site uh and listened to a few episodes on your radio show. Uh I think it's great, but the more I listen and read up on Sous vide, the more I confused I get. You're not alone, my friend.
+
+[24:05] You're not alone. My question is why is there such a great difference in suggested cooking times and temperatures for Sous vide cooking? I wanted to do short ribs as my first Sous vide experiment and saw recipes for two to three days of cooking. It didn't make sense. So I called one of my favorite restaurants in Philadelphia, LaCroix, and Chef Adam there suggested 130 degrees Fahrenheit for eight hours, which worked perfectly.
+
+[24:23] I see you see uh well, let's just start right there before we go on. The reason why there are different times and temperatures is because different people want different effects when they're cooking. Okay. So uh I know you said that it doesn't make sense that you're cooking something for two or three days. And in fact, when you're learning low temperature in Sous vide, the hardest thing to wrap your head around, honestly, is that meat is not going to overcook when you cook it for that long.
+
+[24:48] I like uh Wiley Dufrein, my current brother-in-law, was the first person to tell me that years and years and years ago. And I was like, you're cracked, you're crazy. There's no way you can cook a piece of meat for three days and not have it overcooked. Once you get over that hurdle, right, then all these recipes are going to start making sense to you. Okay.
+
+[25:04] Recipes overcook in the traditional sense of becoming well done, overcook, because um you're cooking at a higher temperature than you want to cook the meat to. So as you cook longer, the more and more overdone it's gonna get, the more and more dry it's gonna get, because you're basically cooking all the water out of the meat, right? Uh that's not what happens low temperature. When you're cooking low temperature or sous vide low temperature, um, you cook the meat to exactly the temperature you want it to cook to, and then it just stays there. The meat no longer overcooks in the sense of it doesn't squeeze all of its water out anymore, doesn't turn gray, doesn't have any of those traditional overcooked things happen to it, right?
+
+[25:43] It doesn't turn tough. What happens instead is you hold it at a particular level of doneess, and then over a long period of time, the connective tissue breaks down, right? And it starts getting softer and more and more tender. Okay. So if you take a piece of meat that doesn't have very much connective tissue in it, let's say a tenderloin, right, and you cook it for a long time, it starts losing what little texture it has and it turns mushy.
+
+[26:09] When you have something like a short rib and you're cooking it to 130, which is like a hundred, which is like 55, I think, or 50 55 Celsius, something like that, which is pretty rare, right? It takes a long time, uh like three days, to break down the connective tissue in that rib and have it get tender again, right? If you started out with a fairly tender short rib that didn't have a lot of connective tissue, maybe after eight hours it's gonna be okay. Usually the short ribs that I cook, if I'm gonna cook them down at that temperature, like 55, like by by 24 hours, it still has the texture of like a skirt steak, which I think is delicious. And I think Carlo here at Roberta sells what he calls a short rib skirt steak or something like that.
+
+[26:47] Uh he does something like that, like 24 hours at roughly 55, 57 degrees uh Celsius, um, which is 130 to 135, somewhere in that range Fahrenheit. And so you can do that, right? But the the so basically these long cooking times at different temperatures are uh because they're holding the meat at a certain level of doneness and then uh and then basically waiting for the texture to turn to what they want. If you cook it too long, it goes to mush. If you don't cook it long enough, it's just not tender enough, okay?
+
+[27:15] Uh and the higher the and there's a range of temperatures that'll work. So a short rib, you can make a short rib that's rare, like 150, 100 and uh sorry, 55 Celsius, like 130 or so. Most people prefer it a little bit higher, like 60 degrees Celsius or so, which is 140, right? And and the even that five degrees more radically chops the cooking time down from three days to two days, right? 63 degrees Celsius, which is a little high for me, uh, if you're gonna do low temperature work, now you're down to like a day, a little over a day.
+
+[27:45] So basically it's getting a feeling for how the cooking times and the temperatures interact. There's no right or wrong answer. There's a question of is it tender enough for you? Okay. Is this making any sense, Nastasha?
+
+[27:55] Yes. Okay. So the other question is uh uh I suggest, I being me, uh chicken breasts for 45 to 90 minutes at 63 degrees Celsius, which is uh I do, and the Sou V cookbook cookbook, which came with the unit, suggests two hours, the same sixty-three Celsius. Don't understand why there's a difference there. Um I just don't think it needs the full two hours.
+
+[28:14] It definitely doesn't need the full two hours from a pasteurization standpoint. Um and I think that chicken breast, once it's done, doesn't get any better. I think it starts losing its texture. Uh and so as soon as it's done, I like to pull it. I don't think it there it's not gonna break down on you right away, but when we ran a test where we cooked the chicken breast for a long time and then ate it by itself with no sauce, with nothing added, no searing, anything.
+
+[28:38] Just what does the meat taste like? The meat didn't taste as good the longer we cooked it on chicken breast. Uh but you know, if you're gonna sauce it up or if you're gonna serve it cold or any one of these things, I think it might not make as much of a difference, right? Um, so that's that's that. Uh he has a second question, so we're gonna these are these are great actual questions.
+
+[28:55] So by the way, at the end he said uh uh he would appreciate a quick answer on these uh if possible. He doesn't think these questions are interesting enough for the show, uh, which I disagree. I think these are things people really want to know about low temperature and sous vide cooking. And he says, besides, this is a good one. I'm a year behind in listening, so it might take a while to find the answer to my question.
+
+[29:12] Well, listen up, because uh, you know, the odds that I'll write the answer are roughly what? Zero, right? Basically zero. Um second question is vacuuming liquids. Uh the vac where do you find a vacuum uh machine that lets you add liquids?
+
+[29:28] The one that came with the machine and the one I have at home don't work with liquids. You're right. I wouldn't even use a vacuum machine, frankly. Uh I would bag everything in ziplocks. Uh I find that the tech the temp you know the texture is sometimes better.
+
+[29:40] It's easier because you don't need to chill the items before you put them in. Most people, when they're vacuuming liquids in those bags, they have to freeze the liquids before they put them in the bags, which is a huge pain in the butt. And just I I never use it. I had a vacuum machine at home. I have an impulse sealer now, which I use to uh seal things like you know, you know, potato chip bags and stuff like that.
+
+[29:59] But I don't do uh I don't use vacuum at home. At home I use almost exclusively Ziploc. Now you won't be able to do vacuum um infusion techniques with that, but you can't really do that with one of those home units anyway. So I would just learn to seal in Ziploc. It's a lot faster, and there's instructions for it on my uh on the blog.
+
+[30:16] And he says he downloaded the Sous vide, such as it is. Don't get me started. I know I need to write more of it. Uh but are there any cookbooks on Sue V you would recommend for the home cook? No, not really, right?
+
+[30:25] There's there's a Keller Sous vide cookbook, but if you don't have a vacuum machine, I mean you I would get it. The pictures are pretty, but it doesn't explain a lot of the how and the why. Juan Roka's book, uh you know, Sous vide cuisine is great, but it's 158 dollars and it's all restaurant recipes. I haven't read the recent installation of Doug uh Doug Baldwin's uh sous vide. Um I haven't uh obviously Victor Stanford has a book that I do not buy that book.
+
+[30:50] I think his temperatures are all out of whack. And then if you have 500 bucks, buy the monitor's cuisine cookbook because that's gonna have a lot of good stuff in it. But that's you know, 500 bucks, right? But they might win it next week. Nastashi, will you not please do not tell people that they're gonna win a copy of that book next week because then people are gonna say they said I'll be like, no, Nastasha said that you might win a copy of the book.
+
+[31:11] You're not gonna win a copy of the book next week, but you're gonna have a very rare opportunity to call in and personally ask Nathan Dirable the question. What? And get an apron. And get an apron. Alright, listen, uh, we're gonna do another break.
+
+[31:21] Call in all your questions. Two 718497-2128 7184972128 cooking issues. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to the Speakeasy every Wednesday at three PM, where host Damon Volti will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid universe. With guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between.
+
+[33:22] Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, bar history, distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Welcome back to Cookie Issues. Damon Bolti, one of our tall, thin bartending friends with a tall, thin, identical twin.
+
+[33:43] Yeah. You think he ever has his identical twin go into the bar instead of him? No, they look pretty different. Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[33:49] I've seen mainly the name and I haven't really seen the uh identical twins so much. I have. He makes delicious drinks, though. We've never had his drinks at the at the bar. Have you?
+
+[33:58] He's out here, isn't he? Yeah, I think so, yeah, but we've never been. We've only had his drinks at events. I like how Nastasi says out here for anything in in Brooklyn. Yeah, well, you know, she's uh she's a Manhattan chauvinist.
+
+[34:11] You know what? I want some please, can we get some angry hipsters calling in here and shouting Nastasha down? That's what we need. We need a little bit of what I am back here. Anyway, yeah, Nastasha, Nastasha and Hipsters, like, you know, don't get along so well.
+
+[34:24] You know, she's like the the anti-hipster machine, which is weird because she spends most of her time out here and spends most of her time with hipsters. No, I don't. That is not Oh, Jack. I could say one horrible thing is right now. Uh wait, so all of a sudden that's a horror.
+
+[34:37] You literally insult, like literally, like I could go into the restaurant, which is I can look at it from here. And if I were to say this lady hates hipster, she would get a beatdown. Because there's enough women hipsters in there that can hit her, they'll give her a beatdown. Fair point. Yeah.
+
+[34:51] Alright. Uh got oh, got a an email uh questioning during the show from Paul Peterson. And by the way, we won't bite. You can call live unless you're. Well, he said it didn't work when he called.
+
+[35:02] Oh, is it work? No, it did not work. Oh, calling didn't work? Yeah. Am I reading the number wrong?
+
+[35:07] 7184972128. Am I reading it wrong? Anyway. Instead of uh, instead of using ink with my tattoo gun, he says, perhaps I could use a leaf off the tree and drive little particles of leaf into the fruit. That's a genius idea.
+
+[35:22] I like that a lot because you're always gonna have a leaf when you're picking fruit. Right? Right? I'm gonna give that a try. I don't have any leaves.
+
+[35:29] But I'll just rip a leaf off a tree outside, and I'll see whether I can shoot it into something like a lemon or I'll try to get some waxy leaves too, some thicker waxy leaves to see what's going on. That's a very good idea, because you always have a leaf. Oh, I know No, he's saying tattoo the damn leaf and keep it with the fruit. He's saying through a leaf into the skin. Yeah, but also if we keep if we steal some of the fruit with it.
+
+[35:52] Just imagine. See, this I love Nastasha. She's like, you always gotta keep someone around who thinks nothing's ever gonna work. Here's the weird thing about Nastasha, right? Seven modernists because she she yeah, like anything that somebody else says, she's like, oh, that's gonna be terrible.
+
+[36:04] It's not gonna work, it's gonna suck. And yet if she gets it in her head that she wants it, she believe it happened no matter what. Right? No, but imagine the leaf and the keeping it today. Imagine the leaf.
+
+[36:14] Oh my god, it's gonna come off. Right? Crazy. Crazy. Anyway.
+
+[36:19] So uh Chris writes in about uh MSG. Hi, Dave and Nastasha. Apparently, Nastasia uh hates the way I pronounce it. Even though we've been working together for you can't say it like that. It's too weird.
+
+[36:32] Yeah, okay. So now she wants me to say it the mispronounced way. Anyway, uh I thought I was good as long as I didn't say Natasha. Yeah, yeah, basically. All right, okay.
+
+[36:40] Uh I was hoping you could help with a question. I have a recent customer uh uh I've had a recent customer questions about products we use that contain MSG. Monosodium glutamate. Taking a step further, I had a customer tell me that hydrolyzed protein and MSG are the same thing, and that if you have a sensitivity to one, then you have a sensitivity to both. Most of our bases have one or the other, as well as a few other products that we frequently use.
+
+[37:02] Could you help me sort this out? Thanks, Chris. Alright, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and probably get myself in trouble. But I would say, since you don't have a sensitivity to one, you don't have a sensitivity to the other. Boom!
+
+[37:15] Boom! Alright, here's the thing. Like there's all sorts of products out there that have look, MSG, okay. Let's just get this straight. I'm gonna get some angry callers in, and you know, eventually, or someone's gonna write it, or someone's gonna say that Dave, he's a jerk.
+
+[37:30] Listen, listen, here's the thing. Glutamic acid is a an amino acid. You can't get around it, right? Okay. Now, the the sodium salt of that is monosodium glutamate, right?
+
+[37:47] Okay. Uh it's also a neurotransmitter. You need it. Without glutamic acid, you die. You don't you don't live without it.
+
+[37:56] You need it, right? Uh you need to have it in your body, that is. But here's the other funny thing, right? Um you make a crap load of it. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:05] Like it you make more of it and then convert it in your head and extreme excrete it, then you're then you're gonna eat. Right? Furthermore, if you can take uh basically we sense MSG is uh free amino acids, right? And a couple other things break down, or will give you that sense of umami savoriness that we taste. We have a taste receptor for, right?
+
+[38:26] Plenty of things have free amino acids in them, like tomatoes, like mushrooms, like parmesan cheese, like uh fish, right? Which is why sushi tastes good, because they have a lot of free amino acids in them. Uh, like uh kelp, dashi, all these things, even if you add no MSG, external MSG to them, right, they contain free amino acids. So hydrolyzed vegetable protein is where they break down a natural protein into amino acids, some of which are glutamic acid, right, and therefore have the same effect as MSG. So, yes, they are the same.
+
+[39:05] However, they are equally non-reactive, right? If you do an extensive research of the uh history of studies on MSG sensitivity, what you will find is that um that all of the studies that show that there's a problem are fundamentally flawed. Nastasha, by the way, so don't get insulted. Nastasha thinks that she's sensitive to MSG. I black out.
+
+[39:28] She blacks out. What the hell does that even mean? I black out. When did you black out? Twice, like eight years ago.
+
+[39:34] When you had what? Chinese food. Oh, so it's Chinese food. So it's only MSG and Chinese food that causes this uh reaction, not all the other things that contain glutamic acid. Right.
+
+[39:43] Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's nuts. You see what I'm saying? Listen, people, listen to what just happened. Nastasha eats things all the time that have MSG in them.
+
+[39:52] She ate Chinese food, assumed it was MSG, and blacked out because of all the liquor she was drinking. No, I know, I know. Oh my god! I swear I wasn't drinking anything. My heart started beating slow, and I went into a spiral, and I went into white light.
+
+[40:06] White light? What is this? This is not a known. Here's a study that works, right? Take a gelatin capsule, right, pack it with MSG, randomize it with a bunch of other uh gelatin capsules that contain sugar, right?
+
+[40:21] With an equal amount of sodium mixed in so that the sodium levels are the same, randomly distributed into people and see whether anyone has a reaction. You know what? They don't. All the studies that appear to to uh show reactions, use things like a strongly, I'm making quote marks with my fingers, strongly flavored citrus beverage to try and cover up the flavor of MSG, which is detectable, right? They also uh use incredibly high levels of MSG, which uh cause you to be able to taste it better.
+
+[40:51] The studies that show there are problems, physical problems with MSG, are where things like neonatal rats are dosed with the equivalent of you eating like like uh a half a kilo of straight MSG, which is nothing close to what you're gonna use. Okay, like there are no studies. They tried to gork out monkey brains like neonatal like you know, newborn monkeys. They tried to zap their brains with MSG and were unable to. It's pathetic.
+
+[41:15] I that I don't applaud those studies, but I'm just saying this is a study that was run. Um, like this is a classic thing. Nastasha has Chinese food. Nastasha has heard about this thing, which was basically posited as a joke in the literature a long time ago, this thing called Chinese restaurant syndrome, and then snowballed into this nightmare. There's a lot of different interesting theories about why people think this is an actual phenomenon.
+
+[41:39] One being that you have something unfamiliar or something you don't like and that you have a reaction to it, and then your brain thinks you hone in on it. There's another theory that perhaps it's uh hypernutrient, a lot of sodium, right? Because you these diets are also high in um in salt. For instance, uh when I eat large quantities of cheese and have red wine and don't drink water and eat a lot of bread and then eat oil based stuff, which I do on a regular basis because I like having cheese for dinner, I get a horrible headache. Am I allergic to cheese?
+
+[42:09] No, I'm freaking dehydrated. Maybe I was dehydrated. Yeah, maybe you were dehydrated. I've had two friends in college black out from Chinese food and blame it on MSG. Really?
+
+[42:18] Yeah, and what were they smoking along with the. Oh my god! This is my point. It's like, why is it always Chinese food? It's in everything.
+
+[42:25] You never like here's what doesn't happen. I I I had a slim gym and I passed out. Slim gym is like 100% MSG. You know what I mean? It's like, get get look, people need to get their stories straight.
+
+[42:37] Here's here's a little something. If you didn't learn this in logic school, logic school, which I did because I was a philosophy major, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Common fallacy, right? After this, therefore because of this. Just because you had a reaction to Chinese food does not mean that MSG was the causality of it.
+
+[42:55] Did you go back and ask those guys how much MSG they used? Do you even know they used MSG? No. Okay. That's absurd as well.
+
+[43:03] It's like you had a re you had a reaction. Everyone needs to break this post hoc ergo propter hoc thing, right? It's not just because something happened after something doesn't mean you've established a causal relationship. The actual studies that have been done show that there is no problem. But theoretically, if you were allergic to MSG, meaning if you had no neurotransmitters and you were already therefore dead, so you couldn't have any MSG in your system, then yes, you also could not have hydrolyzed vegetable protein.
+
+[43:32] Is that is that a reasonable answer? Yeah. Okay. Had a question in from Pete on a similar thing. What's the deal with nitrates and nitrites?
+
+[43:42] Uh there are two what's the deals, right? One possible what's the deal is what's the deal, i.e., is there a problem with them? I think of the difference. Yeah? Here's what's hilarious about I'm gonna do it anyway.
+
+[43:57] So uh turns out that uh like a lot of natural curing salts have nitrates and nitrites in them, which is why they're so good for curing things. Turns out if you don't add them to quick-cured products like bacon, and then you backpack them and put them in the store, you have a good chance that you're gonna give someone botulism because they prevent botulism growth, right? So uh to me they're a they're a good thing. Well, here's what's most hilarious to me. Whole Foods, sponsor of this show, not this mean this radio station, and also by the way, a place I shop on a regular basis, pisses me off for this reason.
+
+[44:31] They will sell something called uncured bacon, where what they do is they buy things like celery, which naturally accumulate nitrites in them, uh, and nitrates and nitrites in them, and then reduce it down to like, you know, so that like eight, like eight acres of celery fit into like you know, like a plastic cup, then take the flavor out of it and use that to cure instead, and say they haven't added any nitrates, they've just added natural celery. To me, this is like the worst form of bull crappery that you can pull on someone because you're giving them the same exact product with the same exact functionality with a with a fake pseudo-healthy label on it, and nothing pisses me off more than that sort of mendacious crap that people pull on the back of labels. Okay. Now, back to the difference between nitrate and nitrite. When you use nitrates, which is what they used to use, nowadays nitrates are only used on long-cured products like hams.
+
+[45:27] When uh when you apply nitrates to meat, nitrates are broken down to nitrites, right? Which are then broken down further and then eventually cause the cured color and and and exert their uh antimicrobial properties. Okay. If you are going to do a short-term product, like a bacon, you're gonna, or you're pumping or you're using a brine, you're gonna want to use nitrite with an eye, right? Almost all things that you make, you should use nitrite nowadays, right?
+
+[45:56] If you're doing a long-cured ham, then you're gonna want to use nitrite. But most of the time you want to use nitrite. And you and the easiest way to do it is to buy a product called Morton's Tender Quick Salt, which has it mixed in, so you don't need to worry about it. You don't need to worry about getting your salt and your uh and having you know pink salt lying around in case your kids, because you really shouldn't eat, you shouldn't eat it by the bushel. But it's it's something that's been used in uh in cooking since time immemorial, even before it was uh isolated on its own and used because there was those impurities in natural salts.
+
+[46:28] Okay, so let's end on a non-diatribe note, shall we? Yeah. Nastash is like, yeah. Nastash doesn't like to get caught. See, I wish like you should never tell me stuff like that MSG stuff.
+
+[46:38] If you know I'm gonna go off on it. I mean, you I can't help it. It's like in my blood. It's like I s it's like I'm a shark and I smell blood. You know what I mean?
+
+[46:45] It's like it's like I can't help it. Yeah, it's in my nature. Yeah, don't blame me out there. Don't I don't want anyone writing in and saying I'm mean or anything like this because you because she saves what the vicious stuff she does to me for off-air. Like I'm the same all the time.
+
+[46:57] No, you're not. Should I get you guys separate tables for the floor? From now on, we need a glass wall in between us on the thing. Anyway, Brian writes in with a friendly question. Hello, hello, Nastasha.
+
+[47:08] These are all friendly questions, by the way. Hello, Nastasha and Dave. Can you tell me how I can make my own chewing gum? And is there any way to make bubblegum? Hey, good question.
+
+[47:15] I don't know whether he read the post before he sent that in. I don't think so. I got it before the post. Well, chewing gum, the original chewing gum comes from the sap of the uh, well, the the latex from the sapodilla tree, and sapadilla is one of the fruits that we had at the fruit and spice park. I wrote about it in the in the most recent blog blog post.
+
+[47:33] You can go on and look at it. And you can still buy it. And that that latex is when it's processed, it's called Chicle. Right? And uh, and uh it's very easy to to use.
+
+[47:44] Um Chiclay, by the way, I'll give you the short story because uh one of the guys at the Fruit and Spice Park gave us a story. It's a crazy story. I don't know if I believe it, but it's repeated a couple times. And if you really care care about chicle and gum bases, you can read Jennifer Matthews' book, The Chewing Gum Chicle, The Chewing Gum of America from Ancient Maya to William Wrigley. And the story is this uh Santa Anna, the Mexican general who handed us our behinds at uh at the Alamo and wiped out the Alamo and David Bowie and all those guys.
+
+[48:11] David Bowie. That David Bowie, sorry. Bo what's his name? Bowie the Bowie knife guy. I don't know.
+
+[48:16] Now, David Bowie's almost old enough to have gotten wiped out. Anyway, so wipes out David Bowie. Uh what's his name? Bowie, the Bowie Knife Guy. Anyway, and like a buck Davy Crockett.
+
+[48:25] Didn't he get wiped out there? I don't know. A bunch of people got wiped out at the Alamo. If you really want to hear the story, go read, go listen to uh Johnny uh Horton's uh Remember the Alamo song. And um I'm gonna get a lot of people mad that I don't know the Alamo story.
+
+[48:39] Anyway, so like he later goes back to Mexico, loses the war, uh, gets his behind handed to him. Uh, you know, we go murder a bunch of uh of like you know, basically teenagers at a place called Triple Topek Heights, win the war. We get a whole bunch of uh territory ceded from Mexico. Santa Anna is trying to make some money now because he's no longer the president, XYZ. Uh that was late, this is later.
+
+[49:00] Ends up in stat exiled in Staten Island with a pile of chicle. They're trying to turn Chiclay, which is a stuff, this latex, into vulcanized rubber, and they can't do it. So he sells it to a guy named uh Thomas Adams, who's like, hey, listen, kids like to chew on things. And so instead of trying to make vulcanized rubber out of it, he makes chiclets, which are the first kind of uh chiclay-based common chewing gum available in the United States. Believe it or not, there it is, right?
+
+[49:24] And so chiclay was the main gum that people use for gum base for years and years, and they got hit with a kind of like triple whammy. One, uh, they started running out of chic lay. During World War II, Wrigley was sending chiclay to uh you know, gum to uh all the soldiers to try and get him hooked on it while they were abroad, right? Which was successful. So they were really running out.
+
+[49:44] Uh it was harder to get because it was wartime, and they started synthesizing uh synthetic ones. Most chewing gum now is synthetic uh made, it's no longer a natural thing from the tree. Uh so that was a you know a big whammy, and then after the war, uh a bunch of uh you know, people in like you know, Guatemala and Mexico were like, hey, how's come we're so oppressed? What the hell's going on here? And they started to have some uh reforms uh down there which further put a dent in uh us basically you know holding the holding the chicleros and the other peasants there down under our thumbs, and so they basically moved away from using chick-lay entirely.
+
+[50:21] Uh you might remember that era from when United Fruit convinced the CIA to overthrow a bunch of governments down there so that we could have cheap bananas. Uh one of the one of the least cool sections of our history. Anyway, um, so you can get uh chicle still, you can buy it. I think Terra Spice sells gum base, but I think it's chicle, that's what they told me. I put that in our blog.
+
+[50:42] But I know you can buy guaranteed chicle base from uh glee gum. The people who make glee gum, they'll sell you a pound. Fit a pound is fifteen dollars. Uh and you you buy it, uh you can't make really bubble gum with it. Bubble gum is always a synthetic base, I think, because it's it has a different composition.
+
+[50:57] The cheek late one is not gonna blow bubbles that well. So what you do is uh and everyone has the same recipe, so I'll just give it to you. Like I searched like every website. This is the one we used, and everyone uses the same thing. One third cup gum base, half cup powdered sugar, two tablespoons corn syrup, the regular stuff, doesn't have not high fructose, it's just do it, it's there as a plasticizer, right?
+
+[51:18] One teaspoon glycerin, you can get that, I think at uh pharmacies. We have it for pastry supply stuff. Then acid of your choice. Everyone uses citric acid because they're lazy. We use many kinds of acid, malic, tartaric, but you want a powdered acid.
+
+[51:31] Uh, flavoring of your choice, uh, and then and then some extra powdered sugar. And what you do is you microwave it, uh, you microwave the gum base, a little bit of the sugar, uh the corn syrup and the glycerin and the acid if you want, and you stir it. It's sticky as all heck, it forms a little little, you can put it in a core container and microwave it. You stir it up, and then you start stirring in powdered sugar until it forms a ball, and then you can just use excess powdered sugar like it's flour, like you're kneading it. And then you just knead in flavor until you get a flavor you like, right?
+
+[52:01] And it takes a lot more than you think. And you can knead in extra acid, and you can even sprinkle with extra acid at the end. When you're uh so what flavors have we done? Oil-based flavors tend to work best and they tend to last longest. Uh, we've used uh all kinds of weird oils from Mandy Aftel.
+
+[52:15] We've used natural things like port wine, uh that we did port wine reduction gum that was good, but those water-based flavors tend to fade very, very quickly. Uh so you make sure to make sure you add extra acid. Um, you can add a pinch of salt. When you're done, you can uh dust it with powdered sugar, roll it out with a rolling pin like it's uh like it's a dough. Um you can roll it between acetate sheets and then roll it out and keep it flat.
+
+[52:36] You can roll it into balls and cut it. You can nuke the sheets slightly and then form them into raviolis and they'll stick to each other after they've been nuked, and you could dust it with powdered sugar again. Uh so you could put like you can make little gum raviolis, they were good, right? We made those, but you have to use like uh like an oil, like a solid on the inside or something that's like frozen oil-based, not water-based. Okay, listen.
+
+[52:57] You were gonna be tempted, Brian, to use your pasta machine to roll out the gum. Nastacia's shaking her head, no. Awful. Horrible, right? Yeah.
+
+[53:06] Yeah. And if you must, if you are compelled to try to use a pasta machine to roll out your gum, use somebody else's. We did. Oh delicious. Oh, that thing was never the same, right?
+
+[53:21] Oh my god. Anyway, so uh it's fun, it's easy, it's fifteen dollars a pound. Cooking issues. There is a Toronto, California? We stand corrected.
+
+[54:00] Jamming good with weather and gilly and the spiders from moss. They've played in left hand, but made it too far. It came the special math. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. This is behind the scenes boo-to-s with Katie Keefer.
+
+[54:34] There's a lot of posturing and talking around raw milk these days and how great it is. But if you really want to get a full-on investigation into the pros and cons, the risks and benefits of raw milk consumption, here's a nifty website.com. It has a laundry list of FAQs, along with information from studies and reports from American and European science communities. If you flirt with raw milk consumption, this is definitely worth taking a look at.com to learn more and to reserve your goat this coming October. Yeah.
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+[0:05] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area.
+
+[0:30] And we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio. And we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's and their studio because they talk to people who are serious about food. And that's what we are at Fairway, is we're serious about food. We we just care very deeply about you as a as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support Heritage Radio because it it's pretty much the same thing.
+
+[1:02] It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's that's we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're gonna find them on Heritage Radio, and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Market.
+
+[1:56] Call in all of your questions today too. That's 718-497-2128 because today is a very special day. We have as our call-in guest, Nathan Mirvold, the brain behind the uh modernist cuisine megabook extravaganza that came out uh I forget whether it's the beginning of this year or the end of the end of last year. Nathan, you there? I'm here.
+
+[2:20] Oh, great. Very good to have you on. So listen, in case there's like a person out there who's been uh living under a rock or something, uh this book basically Nathan was uh were you the head of like uh GUI design at uh at Microsoft? What was your dealy? I was Chief Technology Officer.
+
+[2:36] Chief Technology Officer. So, you know, like many of the good things from Microsoft came out of Nathan's brain, fair to say, or your team anyway, right? Yep. Okay. Uh the idea.
+
+[2:46] So then uh decided that uh didn't necessarily want to be uh in Microsoft anymore, although apparently you're still buddies with that whole crew, right? Starting Well, uh Bill Gates is a great friend of mine, and I I still work with him on a variety of things. Right, like I know I've been out of the uh Microsoft now for 11 years, so it's pretty much their company now, not mine. Yeah, although you know, let's be honest, all their good stuff came out before 11 years ago. Boom!
+
+[3:11] Boom! Just kidding. Anyway, so uh so uh a number of years ago, or many years ago as far as I know, uh Nathan started traveling um the world, going to the finest restaurants in the world. Uh was also an avid cook, uh, and then amassed what uh by all accounts, although I've never actually been to the one at your house, is possibly the greatest kitchen uh in the world. Uh then after a while, realized there was no real um kind of large-scale encyclopedic book about uh how to cook using all kinds of new techniques and technologies, and so decided uh to write a book on the subject, enlisted some of the greatest minds uh in this field uh to help, and then three or four years later came out with uh the book the books that we all know as the modernist cuisine uh book series.
+
+[3:57] This uh accurate or no. Yeah, that's you got it, Dave. Yeah. All right, uh wait, Jack. Do we have a call?
+
+[4:03] All right, we already have a call, Nathan, so I'm gonna I'm gonna go right to it. Caller you're on the air. Hi, Dave. How are you? Doing well.
+
+[4:11] Uh my name's Alvin. Actually, I uh I met Nathan uh at the beginning of the month uh uh at dinner at the lab. How are you, Nathan? Great. How you doing?
+
+[4:20] Good, good. I had a question for you guys. Um I'm getting ready to buy a liquid nitrogen dwarf, and I uh I read the I read the primer on cooking issues. Um I live in an apartment, so I don't know that the uh 160 Super Ninja Doire is gonna work for me. A lot of chefs have been telling me to get a 10-liter Jar, but I feel like maybe 2030 is uh is a better size.
+
+[4:42] You guys have any input on that? What city do you live in? And what city do you live in and what floor do you live on? Uh third floor. What city?
+
+[4:50] Houston. Uh I I'll gonna defer to Nathan on this. I'd go small, I wouldn't be comfortable having large amounts of uh nitrogen going up and down stairs. Uh what do you think, Nathan? You know, as long as you don't spill it, it's okay.
+
+[5:04] You have to make sure you have it in a very well ventilated room because if it fell over, uh you want to make sure that the nitrogen doesn't take too much oxygen displace too much oxygen from the room. Um, and by the way, it's pronounced doer. Um James Dewar was the guy who invented it. Uh the same Scottish name as doer whiskey, although perhaps not the same family. Um interesting.
+
+[5:29] So uh you know, the either the the 10 or the 20 liter would be fine. The larger the doer is, the longer the nitrogen is going to keep. Um because the heat loss is about the same, but the volume is different. So if you have a uh 20-liter uh doer, you're gonna wind up uh having the the nitrogen last a lot longer than a 10-liter. And the and the reason I ask you is carrying it up and down the stairs is gonna be a pain.
+
+[5:57] Yeah, and and the reason I asked you what city you're in is if you're in New York, it's a pain to go get because you have to go to one of the welding shops in the city. It's not advisable to keep it in the passenger area of a car. If you live out in Houston and you have a car, or better yet, even a truck that you can drive out to the place and pick up refills, it's a lot less of a hassle. Wouldn't you agree, Nathan? Yes, I would.
+
+[6:19] Uh if you drive with liquid nitrogen in the the car, which I I certainly have been known to do, just have all the windows rolled down. Okay. Yeah, I mean the the reason for this is lit the liquid nitrogen uh when it boils it uh into just nitrogen gas, it creates a lot of it. It goes up by a factor of 500, something like that. So uh you can easily displace all of the volume of the air in your car, and then you pass out.
+
+[6:51] And you could even die. And people have died from spilling a liquid nitrogen dewer in a small enclosed space. And a car is by definition a small enclosed space, and an accident could do it. Uh even if I had the liquid nitrogen in the trunk, I still can't have the windows rolled down. Okay.
+
+[7:07] Um although pickup truck is is uh obviously an even better way to go. Yeah, that's uh ideal, but just bungee it down properly so it doesn't rattle about. Got it. Yep, Dave. Um I I noticed when I was looking online at the dwarfs, like there's some some 10 liter Dwarfs that say that they're like 30 pounds empty, and then there was like a 30 liter one that said it was 30 pounds full.
+
+[7:29] Is there I imagine the heavier one would would be better insulated? Is that correct? I can't imagine a 30-liter doer that's 30 pounds full. I think that's probably an error. Okay.
+
+[7:38] Yeah. Um in general, larger, as Nathan said, the lar the larger they are, the better they are for storage. I'd be wary of buying used uh used doers um because uh a lot of times their insulation can be can be bad. Um, you know, but if you're willing to take the risk and they're good, then they're good. You know, it's just a matter of can you afford to take the risk on a on a used doer, you're rolling the dice.
+
+[7:58] Uh a doer is basically a vacuum bottle, it's a like a thermos bottle. And uh they can, if they're if you drop them, for example, you can crack the inside just enough for there to be a vacuum leak, and so uh you wind up having no uh uh no insulation value. Yeah, and you end up finding out overnight when you have no nitrogen when you need it the next day at a demo. Uh sounds like that's happened to you, Dave. Oh, yeah.
+
+[8:25] Well, yeah, I mean, that's uh another nightmare about renting small format doers from uh welding shops. They give you the crappiest one they have, and it's usually been beaten about. If you're gonna do it on a regular basis, I recommend buying a uh a new one and being nice to it. Uh but I here we have Nathan, I hear we have another caller on the air. Thank you so much for your question, by the way.
+
+[8:43] Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, hi Nascent. This is Michael Natkin from Seattle. Hey. Hi.
+
+[8:50] So I was uh reading the Fat Duck cookbook lately, and asked the Blumenthal. He talks about using star anise with onions to increase meaty flavors. And he mentions that it is a combination of anasaldehyde and anicidine from the anus, which combines with sulfur and produces some sort of a sulfur heterocyclic. I've tried it, it definitely works. It's beautiful.
+
+[9:11] But I'm sort of curious about the mechanism and whether there are other ways to apply it. So I have no knowledge of this. Nathan? Well I'm gonna probably have to pass too. You know, the flavor chemistry is extremely complicated.
+
+[9:27] And uh whereas you can find things like what you're describing there where some of the sulfurous compounds from from onions will combine with another flavor to make something meaty, i it's hard to generalize. If you took a different uh spice than star anise, it probably will not work because it won't have the uh same uh flavor compounds. Right. And I know Heston's working with or worked with the guys at Ferminich and uh a number of other places, and they've you know have some wacky stuff. A lot of the chemical ba a lot of the chemical arguments for what's going on in cooking in terms of the flavor chemistry, I find them extremely interesting to read, but not necessarily uh as valuable when when you're cooking.
+
+[10:08] Uh McGee is working on a on a large format book on this on this kind of subject right now. Uh I mean it's extremely interesting. That particular one, I I even though I have the cookbook ahead, I I guess it's obvious I haven't read all the way through it. But I'm gonna I'll investigate that one further and maybe get on the horn with McGee about it because I think he's investigated that. Uh any more thoughts on that one, Nathan?
+
+[10:26] Because I hear we have another caller on the air. Well, we've got uh you know, as you say, flavor chemistry is extremely complicated, and you can get uh some very specific things that will occur with a very specific flavor uh that you just don't get uh otherwise. Um and uh as an example, uh uh many wines have a vanilla flavor in them that comes from oak because in fact uh oak has got compounds very similar to vanilla and vanilla. Uh now that's idiosyncratic to oak. It doesn't mean all wood does, or it doesn't mean that you can generalize that to other flavors, unfortunately.
+
+[11:02] Yeah, I made actually a vanilla-like ice cream out of the uh oak from Scotch after roto vaping. It's pretty good. How cool? It's it's good. It tastes really you should I mean I know you have like uh it's easy for you to do uh, you know, Nathan.
+
+[11:14] Obviously, what I do uh combine the oak with the cream cold so that I can neutralize some of the tannins, but uh and then either heat or don't do it San Mason style with uncooked eggs if you're not worried about the pasteurization. But listen, I promise to look into this Anis onion thing. I'm having Nastasha write down the question now and I promise to look into it more, okay? Cool. You know, we make a thing, Dave, where we uh roto vap whiskey uh to take the alcohol out, which sounds like about the stupidest thing you could possibly do.
+
+[11:41] Take perfectly good Scotch whiskey and remove the alcohol. But my God, the flavors that are present that are masked by the alcohol because the alcohol is so raw on your tongue and palate that you don't taste the subtlety, it's just amazing. Yeah, I mean I like both uh you know, well, Nathan and I are both big roto vap fans. I like I like both sides of the of this still on this one, but n next time you do it, just make some uh take it down a little further, you know what I mean, so you don't have as much mass, and I I don't uh actually add any uh milk to it. I just used uh straight cream because you're adding so much liquid in the form of oak, but it's a to d to damn good ice cream.
+
+[12:15] Yeah, it sounds great. All right, uh Jack, is it true we have another caller? Caller, you are on the air. Okay. You're hello, Dave.
+
+[12:25] Hello. This is Joe. I'm calling from South Carolina. Howdy. In the uh introduction to Modernist Cuisine, uh, I guess Nathan says that he uh really can't address bread for fear that the book will become too large.
+
+[12:37] I'm curious where bread fits in modernist cuisine from the broader perspective. I'm also curious as to is there going to be a sequel to modernist cuisine, or did you close it down in the kitchen and send everybody home? But Nathan, as long as it's as long as you're gonna answer this, Nathan, I have a very similar question online, so I'll just add those to it, and you can take care of all these at once. This is from Ian Benz, uh, and he's basically saying, would you have done anything differently if you were gonna start over? And uh what's your next project?
+
+[13:05] Any chance for a pastry book? And someone asked the same thing about cocktails, so you might as well hit all of those, hit all of those at once. Okay. So um it when people ask me what's next, I always say what we're what we're currently doing is still going on with this book. I mean, I'm right in the middle of an interview or uh uh radio show here.
+
+[13:22] Um we did a lunch for people uh yesterday. We did a dinner last week. So uh the team is all still working um uh uh uh very hard, primarily promoting the existing book. Um and we're doing a l some experimentation that we could use in the future for a future book, but mostly we're working on the existing book. I think that's gonna be true through the first of the year.
+
+[13:45] So in January, we need to make a decision as to what we do next. Um we didn't cover pastry baking and dessert. It's a world unto itself. We certainly are thinking about doing that as the next book. Um we might instead, however, do a next smaller book before we do that one, because pastry baking dessert would be another two or three year slog for sure.
+
+[14:07] In terms of the status of uh and cocktails are another thing that people have suggested uh i as something to do plus uh th there's a million different threads we could pick up and so we're gonna look at all of them uh and right now we really have not made a decision uh in terms of the status of bread in modernist cuisine um I I'd say pretty much not uh in the sense that modernist restaurants uh only rarely have a bread service or anything like bread or have done something really modernist with bread. I can only think of a couple of examples. Uh Faron Adria has a dish he calls the air baguette which looks like a perfectly little to sell um uh miniature baguette but in fact is completely hollow inside uh and so that's kind of a cool uh dish um Jose Andres uh serves that at Bazaar where they uh uh make what they call a Philly cheesesteak out of it by putting a very very thin slice of beef on top and they inject um a cheese foam inside of it uh it's really good. But other than that dish it's hard for me to think of any other things where a modernist chef has tried to reinvent bread. D Dave, can you think of any?
+
+[15:28] Uh not really. I mean it's uh bread is used as a component by many many chefs but they haven't actually reinvented the the bread itself. It's just uh you know you'll get you know different gastronomic article you should have argued that modernism came at different times so it came earlier to paintings than architecture. Is modernism just not reached bread yet well, I think that's that's certainly a possibility. Um you know, the pastry and baking uh have their own sets of traditions, their own things that they follow.
+
+[16:05] Um aspects of pastry and baking already follow the same approach that modernist uh chefs take. So modern chefs are always weighing things out exactly, and we always have uh a pantry full of little white powders, and so do pastry chefs. You know, you don't add baking soda by taste or by guess and by gosh, you you have to weigh it out if you want a consistent result. Uh so uh but I don't fe I I I've not seen anything that I really could call modernist uh baking or bread. Modernist pastry, yes, pastry chefs uh have been at the forefront of modernist uh cuisine.
+
+[16:47] Uh at many uh modernist restaurants, the pastry chef is actually out in front of uh uh of the savory guys. Uh at uh many other restaurants that are are still traditional or nouvelle in character, it's the pastry chef that's dragging the rest of the kitchen into the 20th century or 21st century. Sort of like Johnny Azzini at Jean Georges or any one of those Michael Assembly. Or Michael Ascanis of um uh den. Are two great examples.
+
+[17:16] Yeah. Uh well, let me further on these questions, because we have uh this is again from Ian Benz writing in on similar questions. Knowing what you know now about the whole process of realizing the book, would you have done anything differently if you were to start it over? Well, you know, we obviously we learned lots of things while doing the book. And so some of those things you'd like to have learned a little bit sooner uh, of course.
+
+[17:42] But really, there wasn't uh I I was pretty happy with the whole process. There's very little I would do differently. Um I originally thought I was gonna write a big book, and I thought big meant 600 pages, and then 800, and then a thousand. And you know, if we'd owned up up front and knew it was gonna be 2400 from the start, maybe I wouldn't have started the thing. It would have seemed too daunting.
+
+[18:05] Right. Um but I I don't really have a lot of regrets on it, no. Well, well, as as he also said, he hopes you're proud of the accomplishment because he finds it really incredible, as as do I think all of us. Um but he he makes a point here, uh, Ian, when he's asking the questions, he says he's sure you could not be completely satisfied, especially in this age where every week a new technique or discovery seems to come to light that changes one idea of what can be done. But I think it's actually kind of the opposite, because I mean the the the most challenging thing it had to have been for this book is because new things are happening, is to make a statement that's gonna survive the test of time and yet still deal with newness.
+
+[18:41] And I think that's kind of the whole that's the whole thing behind the book. That's the whole kind of interesting thing about it, right? Yes. And uh, you know, it was a challenge as we were finishing the book up to send to the printer, you know, every day I'd think of one other thing we hadn't included, and I'd I'd call Max up and say, Oh my god, we don't have a recipe for skier. Yeah.
+
+[19:05] We have a section in the book that covers various fresh cheeses and fermented uh milk products. So we had yogurt, we didn't have skier by God, and skier is sort of halfway between farmers' cheese and yogurt. It's got rennet in it like farmers' cheese is, but also is fermented like yogurt. Now, could we have shipped the book without Skear? Yes.
+
+[19:23] But we did sneak it in in the 11th hour. Uh and of course, since the we finally shipped the book off, more things like that have piled up. Right. I mean, well, the lucky thing is food is such a huge subject, you know, that you couldn't ever cover all of it. Right.
+
+[19:39] And uh you know, the the other day I was uh someplace and I s uh I had some pasole and I hit myself in the foreign my God, we never covered hominy. At all? And and the whole process of using lime to treat corn, which is intrinsic to not only hominy, but to making uh uh the masaharina for making tortillas, like god damn it, how did I forget hominy? But you know, I think hopefully the world will forgive me for forgetting hominy. Well, I say there's plenty there's plenty of other stuff, and you know, honestly, the the thing is for the for the rest of us that you know, not writing you know books like this, but do write in this field, it's kind of lucky that it's such a huge subject that you know you guys can't tackle all of it, or what would we do for a living?
+
+[20:23] Well, you you know, Dave, while we were working on the book, we w we we followed your blog very carefully to make sure that we we had covered all the things you had put out there. Not not always in as much detail because we decided not to cover cocktails, for example, which is a big part of your blog and and your cuisine. But uh we tried to stay on top of new developments, but we knew for a fact new stuff would happen the minute we were done. And that's okay, because what we ha wanted to do was create enough of a foundation and a base that uh we communicate it to everyone, and if you waited for it to be complete, you'd never do it at all. Right, exactly.
+
+[21:00] Uh we have one more caller and then we're gonna take a break. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Andrew from Minneapolis. Howdy. And I have a question for Nathan.
+
+[21:11] Um I'm just wondering what's one of the biggest things you and your team learned in making the book about food and cooking that really made you stand back and say, wow, like this is a crazy thing that's happening. Or maybe one of the things that you felt like you learned about food and that your research team learned, that you felt like you were the first ones learning this and you were the first ones kind of making this almost in a pioneering aspect of what you were uh fiddling with. Okay. Well, uh I'll quickly touch on a couple of those. I mean uh uh one which is very controversial with traditional chefs is that uh com fee is a fraud.
+
+[21:48] Um by confie I mean the traditional cooking technique where you cook meat in uh fat or oil at low temperature for a long period of time. Uh duck confie is of course the classic example. And while working on the meat chapter, I was trying to figure out how cooking the meat in oil or fat could possibly change the meat. And I decided it couldn't possibly. The molecules are too large for them to penetrate the meat.
+
+[22:15] But every traditional chef, every uh particularly French chef, believes that there's something unique that happens. So we did a bunch of blind taste tests where we took uh both both uh duck leg confid, we also uh did uh pork shoulder. And we tried it b steamed, sous-vide, um and uh and traditional methods, and in a blind taste test we couldn't tell the difference. Oh wow. And when I tell some traditional French chefs this, they get almost angry.
+
+[22:46] So one guy says, I did not agree. And I said, This isn't about agreeing. Tell me you've tried the blind taste test and you can taste the difference and I'll believe you. But if you haven't tried, um, and and that's sort of an interesting question of attitude there. If in fact you try the experiment and you can't tell the difference in a blind test, that tells you something very profound.
+
+[23:08] But a lot of folks think that there's an ideology of food that you should believe the stuff without testing it like that. So that's one example. We also learned uh what causes the stall in barbecue. This is when you cook a uh brisket or a big piece of meat uh the people have noticed for many years that the temperature will rise for a while then it will flatten out and stall and not increase for many hours before it increases again. Uh and there's tons of theories on the internet about why that occurs and we finally found out why and the tur the turns out the reason is that the meat is drying out and the temperature is held down by the fact that the evaporation takes a tremendous amount of energy.
+
+[23:52] The thing that's ironic about it is that some people think the cure for the stall is to slather more sauce onto their meat which of course only makes it wetter which only prevent keeps the stall going longer. Yeah. So there's a couple examples. Although combining those combining those two right I mean traditional confit is a good technique for producing that texture on a duck if you don't have access to vacuum bags or controlled atmosphere cooking. Yeah or a steam oven that's right what we found in those blind taste tests actually is that um what you uh what mattered was the temperature and the time so i if you cooked it at different temperatures, we could totally tell the difference.
+
+[24:34] Right. You'd have to decide which one you preferred, but there's clearly was a difference if you cooked the duck at say 60 C or 65 C or or 80 C. You could totally tell those. But we couldn't tell whether we steamed it in a combi oven or a CVAP, or we um or cooked it sous vide or or or traditional. And so you're right, Dave, that the original point of Confi was really a a sort of approach to sous vide where you could cook it at a low temperature for a long period of time and exclude air from it so that for storage.
+
+[25:08] And that's why there's a similarity. And with that, we will go to our first commercial break. Cruising and playing the radio. Riding along in my automobile. So I told her softly and sincere.
+
+[25:45] And she leaned and whispered in my ear. Cuddling more and driving slow. With no particular place to go. So we parked way out on the Kokomo. The night was young and the moon was cold.
+
+[26:30] So we both decided to take a stroll. Can you imagine the way I felt? I couldn't unfasten a safety bell. Run along in my caliboos. Still trying to get her belt to loose.
+
+[26:49] All the way home I held a grudge. For the safety belt that wouldn't burst. Cruising and playing the radio. With no particular place to go. Alright, welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[27:11] First time we've had Chuck Berry. Uh calling your questions too for Nathan Mirvold. 27184972128. That's 718 497 2128. Next caller gets a modernist cuisine signed apron, signed by uh Nathan uh Chris and Max.
+
+[27:27] We got who's who's on that apron? Do you know Nathan? I think it's all three of us. Alright, nice. Nice.
+
+[27:33] Um, so let me follow up again. Uh you mentioned a little bit about cocktails, but uh Kevin Lou wrote in and said, he has a question for you. Cocktail science is a branch of modernist cuisine that you didn't touch upon. We've talked about that. Do you consider mixology cooking?
+
+[27:46] And how far do you think chefs and bartenders should be able to take their creations? And uh do you have any insights about cocktail science that you can share with us? So uh I'm not an expert on modernist cocktails. I certainly have had them, and many of them draw on the same kinds of science and principles, but I I wouldn't call myself an expert. Um uh Dave, you're much more into this than I am.
+
+[28:11] Um, yes, I do consider it cooking uh in in a variety of senses, but it's not always practiced that way. You know, that most cocktails are uh mixed by a bartender, most traditional cocktails, and uh they j generally don't have the manpower to do anything very elaborate. Uh they're also the server. Uh and so uh and you typically have a fairly small number of bartenders with a fairly large number of people. You you couldn't actually serve dinner if you had the same number of chefs as bartenders to customers.
+
+[28:45] The ratio wouldn't work. Right. And that's because most drinks, of course, simple. You splash some scotch and water into a glass. That isn't cooking.
+
+[28:53] But real modernist mixology that makes the complicated drinks, I I definitely think uh qualifies. Right. And in fact, I mean that's one of the reasons I became interested in it was because uh I thought there was uh a niche that wasn't being adequately explored, you know, and that's kind of one of the reasons I got into plus I like cocktails, you know, so it's kind of a win-win situation. Uh on a similar note, I'll just hit it real quick uh while waiting for the next caller to come in. Uh Colin, longtime listener, writer in, uh, says that cocktail geeks are loving the rainbow's gin fizz.
+
+[29:25] Bartenders are hating their guts for repopularizing a drink involving a 12 minute shake, although they don't really take 12 minutes to shake. And by the way, bartenders also, I was at the last at the Tales of the Cocktail in July, and bartenders were ordering this drink uh by the bushel. Uh, and basically Colin wants to know is there a better way? So Rainbow's gin fizz is actually a drink that I don't much like. It's got like eggs, dairy, gin, orange flour water, and some other stuff, and you shake the heck out of it, and it gets this creamy, to my taste, underalcoholic kind of thing that apparently is becoming more popular.
+
+[29:55] I'm not a huge orange flower water person, anyway. The secret common uh is to shake the ingredients dry without ice first to start the emulsification process. That's the old school way to do it. If I were you, I would invest in some uh in a mix of Xanthan and gum arabic and keep it at your bar at all times. Uh TIC Gums makes a good one called Saladizer 301 or 310 or something like that.
+
+[30:16] And it's uh basically you can use it to make butter syrups or oil syrups, or you can use it to stabilize uh a ramos or anything else. Uh and it's just handy stuff to have around. Uh the gum arabic acts as an emulsifier and a bodying agent, and a xanthan acts as a stabilizer. So I would I would get a hold of that. Any any have any other ideas on that uh Nathan?
+
+[30:36] Uh I you made the the point I would make. I mean, the other thing is make sure that uh you've got a good uh mixer or homogenizer for uh for making the emulsion. Yeah, well, Nathan has uh a bunch of uh nifty emulsify uh you know different homogenizers. Uh you know, he has uh the rotor stator, which actually is becoming more popular now. Um uh Tony uh our buddy Tony C, Tony Calliaro from uh England's got one in his bar uh and you know we have one, uh you have one, a bunch of people have them now.
+
+[31:07] But Nathan is the only person that I know who also has a high pressure homogenizer. He can do some serious business with that, right? Yep. Oh, the fantastic. It um it uses very, very high pressure, 30,000 pounds per square inch uh to uh uh create incredibly fine emulsions.
+
+[31:28] So uh a blender can typically get you down around uh five, 10 to 15 micron droplet size. Uh and with a rotor stouter, you can probably get it down to five uh microns. With uh the high pressure, we can routinely get it down to one micron. Wow. And by the way, when Nathan says blender, he doesn't mean a crappy blender that you buy at Costco, he means a vita prep.
+
+[31:54] Yeah, a vita prep or blend tech or one of the other really uh uh high-end ones. Uh the the there really is a difference. But a rotor stator homogenizer, which is a piece of laboratory equipment, does a vastly better job even than a vitaprep. Oh, yeah, yeah. For most things.
+
+[32:08] I mean the the interesting thing about it is um once you get a below about first of all, you know, the the the particle size that you can get uh out of uh out of a blender has to do with a number of things. How uh efficiently the blades can get to the particles, how much mixing there is, etc. etc. How the blade size in relation to the tank size, all that. But at the at the end, the you're limited by the kind of the tip speed, how fast the tip is hitting uh your your products.
+
+[32:35] And in a rotor stator, there's a rotor that's rotating and a stator that's standing still. So in effect, it's the equivalent of in one you're um you're just slicing a knife through the air, in the other you put someone's head against the wall and then slice the knife through it. It's that kind of a uh of an addition of energy that you're talking about, which is the reason that it can get to such uh smaller uh sizes, right, Nathan? Would you agree with it with that description? Yes, absolutely.
+
+[32:59] That th that's the the whole what you're trying to do is create shear in the liquid. And uh a ordinary blender is trying to slice the blade faster than the fluid is moving. And the amount of shear depends basically on the relative speed of the liquid and the blade, but of course the liquid is moving and it can m push out of the way, whereas a rotor stator just forces all of the liquid in a very, very fine gap, a hundredth of an inch uh sort of a gap, where one side is stationary, the other side is at super high speed, and that creates just vastly more shear. Right. Now the other interesting thing about blending is that your tongue, okay, in terms of texture, your tongue can't really perceive um texture below about 20 microns.
+
+[33:48] Thereabout, that order of magnitude, in that range, 20 microns in size. Um, which is why uh liquid nitrogen ice cream isn't perceptively better, perceptibly better than ice cream made in a high-end commercial ice cream machine, even though its ice crystals are theoretically smaller, right? Because your tongue can't perceive it. So what's interesting is that the rotor stator g has two possibilities for use. One, you need a small particle size, like for instance, like uh did this thing with oysters, and you might choke out the oysters if you have large particles.
+
+[34:19] Two, you want a very stable emulsion, so you want the smaller, smaller things. If you're making milks, which is a big section in uh mi other milks like duck fat milk, which is a big section in modernist cuisine. Or uh, but there apparently, and I haven't done the studies myself, but Nathan I'm sure has uh there are taste perception differences that depend upon the size of the droplets below below your threshold for perceiving texture. Is that true, you'd say, or no? Uh yeah, I think that is true.
+
+[34:47] Um the other one though is the um is how it looks, the optical properties. Right, sure. Uh we have a photo in the book where we took a uh green liquid, a um uh parsley juice actually, and then emulsified it with oil uh in a bunch of different ways. And the smaller the droplets, the whiter it gets. Uh when put through the uh h high pressure homogenizer, you wind up with something which is uh almost it's like a tiny amount of tint to uh cream.
+
+[35:22] Uh whereas if you whisk it by hand, you can still make an emulsion, but the emulsion is very, very green. And the reason is that the droplets of oil in the emulsion, they scatter light. The smaller you make them, the more of them there are. And so the more scattering you get, and so the more whiteness you get. Right.
+
+[35:42] How up are you on pickle technology, Nathan? Um fair amount. We we have quite a few pickles in the book. Um, let's take this question from red then. While I've made good half sours at home with salt and water, so we're talking a fermented pickle, not a quick pickle, and small amounts of alum.
+
+[35:59] I don't use alum, but I mean I have it, but I don't use it. They are not what I would find in New York. Would add in calcium hydroxide to a half sour brine, keep them bright green and help them prevent them from getting soft. I've done some stuff with this. I would say I wouldn't add it to the brine.
+
+[36:12] We're talking about uh pickling lime. I would I would soak them before you brine them. Uh that'll stop from getting soft, but I don't think it's going to keep them bright green. Did you ever do any research with cooking in copper to keep things bring green or or uh any of these things with pickles? Uh no, we didn't.
+
+[36:27] Because it's toxic. We we didn't cover pickles that extensively. Well, I think it's because it's toxic. That's why none of us do it, right? Theoretically toxic.
+
+[36:33] Well, that would be one of the reasons, yes. Um obviously uh copper does oxidize green, but uh and as a result there are blue dyes that are copper-based and so forth, but they're toxic, and so I I wouldn't do that. Right. I mean, uh the uh in the research I was doing this morning, because this it came in this morning, uh, you know, they used to boil apparently the because you know you can not boil, but you can you can high temp simmer uh for a brief period of time below the uh softening point uh and apparently that was another way to increase firmness. Although m I don't know why, I guess to to get the pectin methylesterase to uh help reinforce the structures below the point at which they uh pectin but below the point at which you break it down.
+
+[37:14] I don't know. But they apparently they used to do it in copper, and that would lead to a bright green color because you're replacing um the ion and the chlorophyll with copper, which is stable and bright green. But I just would I wouldn't do it. I don't think the green's that important, do you? Uh I agree.
+
+[37:28] Yeah, I mean, in other words, I don't think it's as big a uh a flavor. So pr preventing oxidation or changes in color in something like an apple, I think is vital because the flavor is also changing at the same time uh as a direct result of what's going on. But uh I don't think uh the same is true with uh with pickles and and them turning a shade of green. I don't think it's gonna affect the the flavor. It's just not my that's not my feeling.
+
+[37:52] Uh well I think you're probably right. And of course, if you do want to dye something green, there's safe ways to dye green. And I would rather use a safe food coloring than uh some copper thing I'm leaching out of my pot. Right, right. And uh on safety, we have a question, and he has he has a couple questions here, we'll take this one right now.
+
+[38:11] Uh Mike calls in with uh plastic wrap and he says, Um, I can't recall us discussing plastic wrap on the air before. I mean, it's something I've dealt with a little bit on the blog, but what are the heat effects on plastic wraps, specifically the consumer plastic wraps I might find in the supermarket, or maybe the food service ones I can find at a restaurant supply? What's the safe temperature range to use uh in uh poaching and immersion baths uh in a galotine, for instance, and what should what should they worry about? What's gonna leach in into the food? I would say actually a home one is probably gonna end up they're crappier because they're smaller and they're a pain to deal with, but um and most food service wrap now is is polyethylene like the home ones, but uh I would stay away from PVC wraps, obviously.
+
+[38:51] Um I mean I'm not you find you do find PVC wraps in restaurant supply places. Uh you find it at Costco in in big uh any of the really big uh containers w of of the plastic wrap are usually PVC. Um at least how often they are, you gotta check. And PVC is considered okay if the stuff isn't hot. Um but I just rather not have it in the kitchen because I don't want to have to remember which plastic wrap should be hot and which plastic wrap should not be hot.
+
+[39:25] Are they properly are they labeled? I can't remember. I I can't try to remember in my head looking for the label on a box. If you read the box, I've always seen it labeled. Right.
+
+[39:33] It'll say PVC or polyvinyl chloride somewhere if it's a PVC side. If it's uh it's not always true that the polyethylene ones have uh thing if they have a proprietary thing. I'm not sure that saran wrap says it's polyethylene, because it's this proprietary brand name. Right. Um it is polyethylene, it is safe.
+
+[39:54] Yeah. I mean, the the interesting thing I find with plastic wraps is I mean, polyethylene is great because it's supposed to not have any um plasticizers that are gonna leach into your food. However, they are made with solvents, and if they're not allowed to flash off properly when they're coming off the rolls at the mill, they can have some solvent aroma left to them. Um I always I uh it's miraculous to me if you wad up plastic wrap and smell it, how many of them have a smell? Um have you noticed that too, Nathan?
+
+[40:27] I mean, it's just like uh you know, at the school it happens a lot because we have a bunch of different plastic wraps lying around and you can just kind of run around the school and smell them. Um I think also the PVC ones tend to uh look the biggest problem is fat-related things. If there's anything in the plastic solvents or whatnot, they tend to be more lipophilic uh than uh hydrophilic. And so this is why if you have a bad plastic wrap and you go to a cheese shop and they wrap cheese in it, the cheese picks up these horrible aromas from the plastic that basically never come out, and the cheese is ruined from an organ organoleptic standpoint, not necessarily from a safety standpoint. Um that said, I use polyethylene uh all the time, uh all the way up to uh I mean I don't do much m uh protein cooking above uh 62 or or so except for confie, which I like at traditional temperatures.
+
+[41:18] Uh what about you, Nathan? Do you have any uh upper limits that you'd take the polyethylene to um you know normally the upper limit is sort of enforced on you by the fact that stuff gets really soft? Right. Um so uh it real sous-vide bags uh have are usually multi-layered, they usually have nylon as one of their layers, uh, and they're good for much higher temperatures. And uh they're also safe and tested at much higher temperatures.
+
+[41:50] So something like a Ziploc bag or a plastic wrap, I would I tend to use it at 60 C or below. Um and there just isn't a whole lot of reason for stuff you'd cook hotter to use the that stuff because there's better ways to do it. Right. I mean, I do we do chicken gala, we do chicken gallantines at like 64 and plastic wrap, and they're fine. You know, but that's basically the highest the highest that will uh that will go up.
+
+[42:16] And also from Mike, you want to take a non a non-step uh technical question? You want to take a uh a dinner etiquette and um marriage question we have from Mike that uh maybe we can both weigh in on here? Sure. Okay, so uh Mike's question is on dinner parties. When having guests over for a dinner party, eight people or less, would you serve food with a plated presentation, family style at the table, or buffet?
+
+[42:36] Here's his background. His wife and uh uh and and he are trying to entertain uh smaller uh groups versus going out to large gallery gatherings because of better quality conversation, close friends, etc. Uh and Mike loves to cook, so he takes us on happily. His wife is a wonderful person, he says. He's making this thing.
+
+[42:50] His wife is wonderful, he's not saying anything negative about her, but a fairly picky eater. Yeah, but but a fairly picky eater, mainly texture over taste, but that's for another day. She never makes a fuss over and has never gone hungry when we're out. But he's worried about if he plates his food, uh he wants to do plated food because he wants to challenge himself and because he thinks uh he'd like to think through the menu for the night, and he thinks out uh he'd like to think about the way everything's gonna show up on a plate. She doesn't want it plated, she wants it family style because it's going to allow her to discreetly choose what to eat and what not to eat and not feel and and also to control portion size and not feel left out, not feel like she's being served something and not eating it and and feel bad.
+
+[43:28] Um so uh what do you think? Help help help Mike out here. Well, it's it's pretty hard to to recommend to anyone that they do something that will upset their spouse. That's probably not a good idea, just in general in life. Um you know, the the reason to do plated dishes uh is because it gives the chef control, allows you to do fancier, more interesting things uh in general.
+
+[43:55] Um, you know, almost anything you plate up you could put onto a platter, but then it's harder to transfer, and it doesn't look as nice. Um that said, the food does actually is gonna be uh apart from a very few exceptions, I think the food's gonna be fine either way. So um I would say try to strike a compromise with your wife and uh uh find some uh uh you know you you also can do family style for some things and not for others. You know, you can have your entree, uh the some restaurants do that, you know. The steakhouse typically the steak is individual and the side dishes are all done family style.
+
+[44:37] Yeah, exactly. I think that's that's excellent advice. Pick some stuff that you know is a slam dunk for your wife, stuff that you know she likes, and work only with those things on the plated stuff and have them come out early in the meal when she's already when she's when she's not full yet, and then she can scale back her portion sizes later in the meal when you go family style, right? Wouldn't that make sense? Makes sense to me.
+
+[44:59] I mean, for me, I get viciously, viciously angry if I plate something, and I'm not just talking plated, like I'm talking sandwiches. Anytime you construct a food and then you watch someone pick it apart in front of you, I get viciously angry. Even uh and I shouldn't say this on the air because people do it all the time, but like like even when chefs do it, when um when you when I see someone do it to someone else's food, I'm like, look, at least taste it the way that they presented it, because that's the way it was intended, and and then pick it up, pick it apart. I mean, a sandwich doesn't taste the same if it's horribly mangled and then rearranged. It's not intended to be eaten that way.
+
+[45:35] Do you know what I mean? Yep. I mean, uh d doesn't that make you kind of irritated sometimes, Nathan? I mean, if you actually hate something or you're allergic, fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:44] But you're still not better better to tell the kitchen that beforehand, right? This way they can make adjustments to the sandwich or to the plate such that it's still something that they're proud of. Here's my problem with it. My problem with it is you mangle somebody's plating or somebody's dish, right? And then you judge them based on your mangled version of their dish without giving them the opportunity to make the dish such that you would like it given your uh issues with the food, right?
+
+[46:11] I mean, does that make sense or no? Yeah, I think it does make sense. Uh there's a uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot to be said for having the chef uh be allowed to make it the best possible way. Uh and uh anyone who is cooking for other people wants to please those people. And so uh i it is always a little uh disappointing if you're not given that opportunity.
+
+[46:40] Now to be fair, there are some people who uh for whatever reason view it oppositely and they say, Oh, I don't want to bother the chef by telling him that I don't like uh, you know, pickles on my sandwich or or or some other thing, that they they feel that's being too picky, and so they they don't say it up front and then they try to pick it out afterwards. But I agree, in general, you should be up front with with what your um your requests are. Uh obviously if someone's allergic to something, that's a totally different issue. Although if you're really allergic to it, it's too late to pick it up at the time, you know. Yeah, yeah, but if you have a nut allergy, picking the peanuts out of your kung pao chicken is too late.
+
+[47:23] You're screwed. Um, yeah, but it let's take uh okay. But I'll say this. Uh, pickles is a very good example. If I put pickles on something, um, it's telling me I have to take a break, but probably because that dish desperately needs the acidity from the pickle.
+
+[47:41] So you remove that pickle and you now you've now you've unbalanced the whole thing. Then if you don't enjoy it, uh I feel bad. That's what it is. Basically, if you don't enjoy it, I feel bad. That's where that's what it comes down to.
+
+[47:52] Um, all right, listen, the next caller, and we're gonna go take one more break. The next caller is gonna get that apron. What was that song anyway? What is it? The Avalanche?
+
+[49:23] Not the Avalanche. I don't know that one. This is the first time we've had a song. I have no idea what it is. Anyway, welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[49:28] Call your questions too. 7184972128. Your questions from Nathan Miraville. That's 7184972128. Well, we have an interesting one in from uh Josh in Antigua.
+
+[49:38] Uh says, hello. He's been cooking Dave Chang's uh five minute, 10 second eggs and eating them with everything lately. He notices sometimes it's harder to peel them uh without obliterating the white of the egg. Is this due to something in my procedure? I bring the eggs to room temperature before I boil them, let them sit in warm uh by uh by letting them sit in warm water.
+
+[49:55] After boiling for four minutes and fifty seconds, he thinks 5'10 is uh too set. He places the eggs in an ice bath until they're cool enough to handle. After wrapping a spoon against the shell until it's shattered into small pieces, he then peels the eggs in the ice bath. Uh anyway, blah blah blah. Sometimes the eggs come off with sorry, I didn't mean blah blah blah Josh.
+
+[50:11] You know what I'm saying? Sometimes it comes off with no problem, other times uh it rips the egg apart. Please explain uh what's going on. Uh I have my feelings on it. Nathan, do you have any feelings on that one?
+
+[50:20] Well, the uh texture of egg is very critically dependent on the temperature at which it's cooked. And uh the so the first question I would have is how consistent is it if you're boy if you're boiling and and timing it exactly, that's probably okay unless you're varying the number of eggs or the size of the pot or how crowded they are. Uh because that can make a difference if it's i if it the water on the egg is uh is a little cooler because you put too many eggs in, uh, you're gonna wind up with it less cooked, which means it's much easier to rip it. The other possibility is that it it's uh has been established that the age of the egg makes a difference, that uh uh very fresh versus older eggs will have a different texture. Right.
+
+[51:07] Uh that could be it. I think that's exact exactly what's going on. I mean, Chang's, I think argument there is rapidly boiling large pots and you know, an uh a quantity of eggs that's not going to perceptively uh perceptibly uh you know lower the temperature of the water, that it's gonna be able to recover quickly enough that it's not gonna make that much of a difference. He always uses the same type uh same size rather of egg and always uh uh starting at the same initial temperature, which uh as Nathan said should uh prove fairly accurate. There are some studies that show that uh eggs boiled uh at uh you know uh quickly at high temperature rather than ramped up from cold are easier to shell than ones that are uh ramped up from cold and then and then shelled.
+
+[51:54] Uh Nathan and I both know that the exact opposite is true of low temperature eggs, ones that are cooked in the 62, 63, 64 Celsius range, because there the thin white just never sets up and it acts as a release agent, and there's nothing easier in the world than breaking out an egg that's been cooked at at 62 degrees uh Celsius. Um but uh the the other thing is as eggs uh age, the uh pH rises, the egg white becomes more alkaline. Uh and as it becomes more alkaline, and this is according to uh egg science and technology by uh William uh Stadleman uh and you know and others, uh as the pH rises, the eggs become easier to shell because uh the proteins in the thin white don't adhere as strongly to the uh to the membrane. And this is a big deal in egg processing technology because people produce for a living uh shelled eggs and the value goes down dramatically. So people try to figure out a way to not have to store eggs, boil them quickly, and then rip the shells off of them.
+
+[52:54] And so what they do is they actually alkalize the eggs. They they store them above uh a sodium hydroxide bath, not in it, but above it, uh, and that uh increases the pH more rapidly than aging. Uh and McGee actually recommends putting a pinch of baking soda into your water, although I've never tried it to try and alkalize it more and make them easier to uh to shell. And uh another interesting reason to try and take a fresh egg and uh alkalize it so that it can peel easily is because uh even though it becomes easier to peel, the f the taste of eggs uh in the panels I've read on in these uh um technical studies, the taste of egg does deteriorate over time, even though the peelability goes up. Uh anyway, we have a collar on the air.
+
+[53:34] Here's one other little tip I'll say if you really want to uh make it easier to peel your eggs, uh run a blowtorch very lightly over the egg before peeling. Uh it helps degrade the the shell and it's much easier. It also works to roll the egg in liquid nitrogen very easily before peeling it. That's hilarious. Extreme hot or extreme cold, both uh will make the shell more brittle.
+
+[53:58] You heard it here first, unless you own modernist cuisine. Uh all right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, my name is Matt. I'm calling from Chicago. Howdy.
+
+[54:07] Uh Dave, I talked to you a while ago about mattress infusing uh honey, and it didn't really work out, but that's a whole nother story. Lately, um I've been playing around with a little bit of uh baking soda and Chardonnay to make it for um effervescent. Right. Uh I did like a powdered sugar and baking soda rim. And I was wondering if you guys could give me some suggestions on doing a sorbet that has, say, something on top of it.
+
+[54:33] So when you eat the sorbet and it melts, it becomes effervescent in your mouth. Oh, by the way, you won the apron, so don't hang up when you're done. We'll get you back on the air and we'll figure out how to mail the thing to you because you were the in the next caller. So awesome. Thank you very much.
+
+[54:47] Well, thank thank Nathan. He donated it to the show for you to have. Uh but Nathan, you have any uh ideas? I wouldn't use baking soda, by the way. I mean, you need an acid plus uh a base.
+
+[54:58] I wouldn't use bak but anyway, Nathan. Go ahead. Well, um, you know, the the problem with uh having an acid base reaction to make it effervescent is you're gonna get some taste out of it. Um which in some con in some contexts that's okay. You know, baking powder biscuits have a taste that is characteristic that way.
+
+[55:19] Um unclear whether it's gonna be okay in your Chardonnay. I mean it but that's sort of a personal preference. Uh uh the only other way to make something effervescent is to put in uh something like Pop Rocks that already is effervescent itself and a sort of stored effervescent. Right, and and uh the pop rocks is definitely I think a better way to go, and you can buy unflavored pop rocks. Although to be fair, Nathan, Pop Rocks isn't the same feeling as like effervescence in a uh in a in a drink.
+
+[55:54] Hey, um why don't we tone we'll t we'll leave him on the air because we need him to get the thing, but we'll tone down as a direct way. Yeah. So take your your um Chardonnay and put it in a seltzer bottle. And infuse it with uh CO2. Yeah, much better.
+
+[56:08] The the reason that uh soft drinks and champagne are effervescent is that they have carbon dioxide gas dissolved in it. And carbon dioxide happens to be a gas that is will very readily dissolve in a cold liquid. Uh and uh a seltzer bottle is exactly how you do that. So I would say, look, if you really want to have effervescent Chardonnay to make sort of a faux champagne um uh just you know carbonize uh uh carbonate it directly. And the seltzer bottle is the simplest way, there are some other approaches you can do if you put a tiny bit of dry ice into the bottle and seal it up, that'll also work.
+
+[56:48] You just gotta be careful you don't blow your bottle up. Yes. Uh okay. I would I would Google image uh dry ice soda bottle to to see people's eyes when they when they don't do it properly. Because the bottle will blow.
+
+[57:02] Uh and then uh my question was I'm trying to do it for a dessert where it's a sorbet, like it's a Chardonnay sorbet, and maybe there's um some kind of chemical on top that as it melts in the mouth or as you put it together it it it's almost effervescent in your mouth. As it the reaction is going on in your mouth. And you think maybe the pop rocks is a good thing. That would work, but it will have its own sort of texture and taste characteristics. Um, I've not tried this, but uh you could if you made your sorbet, you ought to be able to carbonate it.
+
+[57:42] It's it's tough because the the carbonation only works in the liquid phase, so it's a question of how much liquid phase. Well, you have to spin it first. You can't freeze it. But i if you took uh it and you made a sorbet in a sorbet machine or a Paco Jet or something else, so it's in its state that's semi-liquid. I bet you will get some CO2 in there.
+
+[58:04] I mean I've awesome. I pressurized a tailor once, and besides spraying ice cream base all over the kitchen, I wasn't able to get as much of an effect as as I wanted. Uh Sam Mason was working on this for a while. I'm I'm I'm sure I mean look, it's obviously it's possible, but the the car the carbonation is only going to be present in the liquid phase. So you're gonna have to the soupier your sorbet is, the better the effect of the carbonation is going to be.
+
+[58:29] I mean, I think I think I think you might want to go with uh the pop rocks. Don't you think that's the easiest way? Um there all there's a guy uh uh someone on the internet who has a uh a site on dry ice ice cream, where instead of making uh ice cream with liquid nitrogen, which is something Dave and I uh have been known to do, uh he puts powdered dry ice into it and then puts it into the l lets it sit. Well, the interesting thing is the car the carbon dioxide does not get absorbed very much into the uh ice cream base, a little bit it does. But it makes a uh texture that looks almost exactly like white bread.
+
+[59:08] Huh. Uh because um I've done that before with uh dry ice pellets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so so that's that's a way to make now that's not quite the same thing as you're describing.
+
+[59:21] Um, no, no, no, no. But I'm just saying I've made an ice cream before with the base and dry ice pellets. Okay, cool. I mean, I I once made it by mistake, like a many, many years ago, chilled a base with dry ice because I found a soft serve machine on the street and the chilling thing didn't work. And uh I chilled down the base with dry ice and then froze it soft serve, and and it was it was horrible.
+
+[59:43] First of all, it was the only time I it was the first time in my life many, many years ago that I had made a large amount of base at once in a pot by hand and I curdled the eggs at the bottom and so it tasted like scrambled egg soda ice cream but not in a good kind of Heston Blumenthal way, kind of in a really crappy I messed up the ice cream way. Hello, Dave? Yep. Okay. Hey listen um I appreciate your I appreciate your information that it's been great.
+
+[1:00:07] It's getting kinda louder on that sorry. All right I just wanted to tell you uh real quickly I think the conversation with Steve Miller was that the old record executive sent a younger guy in there and the younger guy told him he had to have a hit record so Steve Miller kicked back and said, well how about this Abercadabra I'm gonna reach out and grab you. For real? Alright the Nathan what we're talking about here is Steve Miller's worst song is clearly Abracadabra. Uh I don't know whether Nathan whether you're a Steve Miller fan or not but the worst song Steve Miller ever came up with by far, Abracadabra.
+
+[1:00:42] Um I'm I am told that we have uh one more caller on the air true we lost him if they if they come back they come back. Um okay we had a question in uh from Nedward uh via Eater Nathan noted that someone spotted you on an airplane reading the modernist cuisine PDFs do you plan on selling the PDFs to poor cooks who can't buy the book um you know I really don't think anyone spotted me on an airplane doing that. Hey look this is not this is not me this is coming in via the internet. Okay, it's true, but look just let me say I I I have not been in that situation. I can promise you that.
+
+[1:01:23] Um, so you're not denying that the PDS exists. In order to um uh to print the book, you know, PDFs are a key part of the whole printing process. Uh that's how the book gets sent over to the printer in China is as PDF, so of course we have PDFs of the book. Um and we have had there was a period where we had some reviewers uh that uh needed to see the book and we didn't have physical books, so we had a uh password protected website where reviewers could go read the PDFs. And the result was kind of interesting.
+
+[1:01:57] Uh most people found that it was better than nothing, but only a little bit better than nothing, and that uh the usability was not very good. Uh I think if we really wanted to make a uh online or interactive or um iPad version of the book, we'd have to do something a lot more extensive than simply put the the PDFs up there because navigating around those huge photos, navigating around the the the rest of the book is just too hard. Right. All right, let's take so someday I would like to have an interactive version of the book. Uh you know, we made a decision uh two years before release as to what platform we would target first, and we chose paper books because there was no iPad, and Kindle didn't do color and still doesn't.
+
+[1:02:47] Uh so you really couldn't have something that would really show off what we were trying to do. Um at some point in the future we will probably make a uh interactive version, but it's a lot of work. Um, to get the quality the same to get the interaction the same. You mean to get the quality what you want. I mean, you could easily do an online version.
+
+[1:03:06] Do you want to have video? Uh do you want to have animations? Do you want to have good navigation? All of those things take some software development effort, or they take a whole bunch more um effort in shooting a video. It's not easy to do.
+
+[1:03:21] Right. Exactly. You said it better than I did. Apparently that caller that uh got dropped is back on the air. Let's take one last call.
+
+[1:03:35] Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hello, this is Daniel from San Jose, California. Howdy. I had a question about um acidic marinades in the book Um Modernist Cuisine. There's a section on acidic marinade in meat, and um the section talks about how acidic marinades can actually tenderize meat and improve their moisture holding capacities.
+
+[1:04:00] I was um interested in um how this how you guys came to this conclusion because um I've noticed that there are others like um Harold McGee who believe that um acidic marinades only um denature protein on the surface of meat. Take it away, Nathan. Well uh I think there's two issues going on here. First of all, marinades only penetrate a certain distance. That's just a fact.
+
+[1:04:33] Um and any marinade is only gonna work on the surface if you don't either give it enough time to to go in or you don't do something like injection or tumbling or other things to speed it up. Uh now uh, an acidic marinade, uh if it's there are many cookbooks that will have an acidic marinade where you put the the meat in for a very short period of time, 20 minutes or something like that. That is just a surface flavoring. And that's fine if that's the surface flavor you want to get. You just shouldn't think you're gonna change the interior of a piece of meat in a 10 or 20 minute period.
+
+[1:05:08] It isn't gonna happen. It takes too long for the diffusion time. But an acidic marinade certainly will denature proteins um all the way through the meat if you get the marinade all the way through the meat. And either by waiting long enough or by using injection uh or tumbling or all of the above, you certainly can get that to happen. Um the similar things, of course, occur with a uh alkaline marinade.
+
+[1:05:36] Uh in either case, what you're trying to do is take the meat proteins into a regime where they're not normally um uh but present in meat. So you either make it much more acidic or much more alkaline, and either one causes some of the proteins to break down. And depending on the context, that could be desirable. But I promise you it'll work all the way through if you inject it or um uh uh or tumble it or simply wait long enough or have your meat be thin enough. All right, thank you.
+
+[1:06:09] Well, uh there there you have it. And uh I would like to I'm gonna I'm gonna answer guy named Josh writes in and asks where he can get high proof liquor in England because he wants to do uh like infusions and wants to know if you really need the high proof liquor. Answer Josh, yes. You can't buy Everclear in uh in England, though, they don't sell it. Look for Spiritus vodka out of Poland at the Whiskey Exchange, or look for Stro, rum from Austria, the original 80%.
+
+[1:06:35] That'll float your infusion boat. I have many, many thanks. Thank you, Nathan, for spending this last hour with us. I think people really enjoyed it. Uh hopefully you'll come on again sometime.
+
+[1:06:44] Modernist Cuisine, the greatest series of cookbooks ever written. Cooking issues. Thank you. Oh, you did rat. Got me on this corner.
+
+[1:07:10] And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to be my baby. Between a minute's late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
+
+[1:07:31] Fishes, fishes, but you dairy rat. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. I had a chance to swap you. For a little.
+
+[1:07:56] Every spring at the end of kidding season, goat dairies across the country are faced with a question of what to do with their male bucklings. Because on a dairy farm, there's no role for a male. Often the most economical thing for these farmers to do is to call the animals at birth or ship them off to the commodity market. Heritage Foods USA is embarking on a new project. No goat left behind, looking to step in and fill this niche by creating a marketplace for these male bucklings.
+
+[1:08:21] Visit us at www.heritagefoodsusa.com to learn more and to reserve your goat this coming October. New York Night Train, Summer Soul Shindig, Rockaway Beach Party, featuring the 45 RPM soul magic of DJ Jonathan Tobin. Saturday, August 20th, 6 9 at Rippers Boardwalk 86. Free Party.
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+[0:05] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. The following program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery. Kane Vineyard and Winery supports heritage radio and the growing movement to change how Americans eat and how we think about our planet.
+
+[0:37] For more information, visit www.cane5.com. Oh, you dead. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking Issues coming to you from roughly 12 to 1245 every Tuesday here in the studio with Nastasha DeHammer Lopez.
+
+[1:08] We're coming to you from the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn. So listen, Nastasha, what's the telephone number to call in? 718 4972128. That's 718-497-2128. 2128?
+
+[1:24] Yes. Good. Um, just so you know, well, that's kind of a thing. I can't remember the dang telephone number of this place. When it comes to cyanic glycosides, I'm there for you, buddies, but with the telephone number, can't help.
+
+[1:35] Listen, we have a caller on the air, so let's go right to it. Hi Dave. Hey, how you doing? Good. Um, I've got a two-part question.
+
+[1:45] All right. First one, I'm in London. Where should I go for drinks? Well, that's easy. Before you even go any further, that is simple.
+
+[1:52] Anywhere that my friend Tony Cunnellaro is involved, you should go immediately for drinks. Uh, the one that I go to all the time is 69, excuse me. I bike here at about a thousand miles an hour, so my throat's a little scratchy. So 69 Colebrook Row. It's in Islington.
+
+[2:12] It's uh like a 10 minute walk from the Angel Tube Stop. I can't believe I said tube stop on the air. Uh and uh what else did you like when we were there, Nastasha? Where'd you go? Oh, I don't remember.
+
+[2:25] I wasn't with you most of the time. Well, that might work because I I work quite close to the angels tube stop. Um now we said it twice on the air. Right. I uh should I get wait uh anything.
+
+[2:38] Uh here's the thing about it. Like that, I nine times out of ten, I mean look, Tony's a friend of mine. So uh when I go, I typically don't pay, which means I don't go anywhere else. Uh uh so I I I've had most of my drinks there. That said, I mean if we've been to Hicks, um apologize, man.
+
+[2:57] I have to bike here earlier. It's just seriously, I was breaking my neck to make it here because I was researching stuff, so I have something caught in my throat, and I didn't have time to get it out, so I apologize again. Uh so Tony is uh is runs a very interesting bar there. He also has a new hotel bar, but I don't know what it is. I thought he has a uh lab, then the Pink Floyd Studios, the old Pink Floyd Studios.
+
+[3:19] Really? I think the drinks also might be interesting. There's a new restaurant restaurant uh um in excuse me. Remind me, never to do this again. Always give myself five minutes before we start to uh no matter how late I am to get whatever it's in my throat out of my throat.
+
+[3:35] So uh Quince, the new restaurant I think has some interesting drinks as well, uh, and Hicks. But Tony uses high-tech stuff like rotary evaporators, centrifuge, but you would never know it in his bar because the bar is like a little tiny, like neighborhood bar that just happens to serve some of the best drinks uh in the country. And it's not me saying that. He's rated like constantly like one of the best people, but like whatever they're making, my trick is I always walk in and say bartender's choice. What do you want to make?
+
+[4:03] And then typically, you know, if you if you if you tell them that you're game for whatever they're gonna make, typically they will make you something interesting. If the if uh you know, if you're like, I I really like tasteless vodka drinks, well then they'll size you up and they'll give you something. I mean, Tony will still give you something good, and all of his people are good, but you know what I'm saying. A bartender's choice is always the best choice. Right, but can I say bartender's choice, preferably with whiskey and well stuck?
+
+[4:28] Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. Yeah, that's perfectly respectable. I mean, look, it they're actually one of those great places where they're not going to make you feel bad there for whatever you drink. They're not they're not snobs that way, even though they're some of the best people in the business. Um but yeah, you mean it's you know, definitely typically what I'll do is I'll say, uh, you know, your choice.
+
+[4:48] I'm feeling kind of like a brown liquor today, or maybe I'll say whiskey or something like that. And they can they they they have all things there, but they do a lot of really interesting stuff. And they have a piano, and certain nights there's tranny bands playing. Even better. Yeah.
+
+[5:03] Um the second part of the question is uh what are your feelings on water chestnuts? Ah, interesting. Water chestnuts. Okay, so my wife detests water chestnuts. So do I.
+
+[5:15] Really? Uh I like them. For her, it's a textural thing, and uh uh, you know, at one point I said to her, Look, uh, maybe it's that you don't like canned water chestnuts and you grew up eating canned water chestnuts, so I made them fresh. And she's like, No, I hate these too. And I was like, Oh, is it similar for you?
+
+[5:30] Is it a textural issue? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really add anything in taste. I don't like the crispiness of it. Um I pick them out of every food, and I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone thinks it adds anything to a recipe. What do you what do you think, Nastashi?
+
+[5:42] I bet you hate them too, Nastasha. I used to like them as a kid. I hated them. Yeah, Nastasha hates most things though, so uh yeah, you know, you and my wife are in the same camp. I'd like to I kind of like they have a very uh unique um okay, so the texture is crispy in the way that a raw potato is crispy, but without that raw potato flavor.
+
+[6:00] So if you like the texture of a raw potato, but not not that not that raw starchy flavor, then a water chestnut seems like it's a good bet for you. If you don't like that texture, I think you're gonna be in trouble. Would you agree or no? No, I agree. It's the ta I mean, I'm not looking for a raw potato texture either, I guess.
+
+[6:17] Right. And uh water chestnuts and certain other things that grow in uh the water like that can have uh uh parasitic worms in them. I think it's worms. Maybe it's a bacteria, I forget. So you need to cook your water chestnuts before you uh before you eat them if you get them fresh.
+
+[6:32] So don't, you know, eat them raw. Uh well, you shouldn't eat them at all because you don't like them. But here's a here's a good um thing that uh Nils Norrin always used to get uh water chestnut flour, and he said that for dusting a fish and frying, uh he loves water chestnut flour. And I think that's a trick he picked up when he was working in China. Water chestnut flour is not so easy to come by here in the US.
+
+[6:56] I don't know about the UK, but it's definitely available, so maybe there is a uh a use for water chestnut for you yet. Well, I'll look into it. Um final thing, Dave, it's uh it's actually Brady. Brady! Oh, this is my cousin Brady.
+
+[7:11] I didn't know you hated that in the beginning. I didn't know you hated water chestnut uh water chestnuts. Brady and they keep showing up in the side dishes here. I'm like, why do people do that? It's ruining the dish for me.
+
+[7:21] And I thought I'd uh I'd ask you. Well, uh, this is interesting that I unrelated, you know, just we're family by you know, my by marriage, my wife and Brady, and and me, actually. But uh the uh two people in the family that hate water chestnuts, the only two people I know are people who regularly come to my house. When you're coming back to the stage. But that's good because Jeff Jen hates him, then that means he will not make them while I'm there, so correct.
+
+[7:45] Go to Tony's bar or I'll kill you, and you never invit her to my house again. No, I'm going there today after work, so I thought I'd call. Alright, cool. Thanks a lot. Alright, see ya.
+
+[7:53] Alright, listen. I I'm gonna recover my throat, and we can take the first commercial break, come back and I'll answer some email questions. Call in all your questions too! 7184972128. That's I want to ride my bicycle.
+
+[8:07] I want to ride my bicycle. I want to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle. I want to ride it where I like. You say black, I say white, you say boss, I say bite, say sharks, say him and George Rose, never my scene, and I don't like Star Wars.
+
+[8:28] Say rolls, say Royce, say God, give me a choice. I don't believe in pizza band, Frankenstein or Superman. I want to ride my single I want to ride my bicycle. I want to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle.
+
+[8:59] Races are coming. So forget all your duties on here. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. I am almost fully recovered. Just give you an idea of what you're dealing with when you're biking from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
+
+[9:21] I pass by a concrete factory on my way over here. And a giant uh, you know, uh, what are those things called with the big thing in front, the scoops? Bulldozer. A bulldozer dumps an entire bulldozer, like, you know, shovel load of dirty concrete water basically on my bike as I'm biking past him. That's that's Brooklyn.
+
+[9:40] Anyway, call on your questions to 718497-2128. That's 7184972128. We're gonna be here for a little while because I got some email questions to answer. Alright, by the way, uh, we have this new kind of thing. People just call in with kind of information and shout outs.
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+[9:54] Have you noticed that recently? We've gotten a lot of people just writing in with some info. Yeah. Alright. Well, so here's some info.
+
+[10:00] For those of you who are in the New York area and don't have a job, uh, or who have a nighttime job. Alright. Uh Tom Metcalf says uh there's a really good movie that you should look at at the MoMA today. That's Museum of Modern Art. Jiro Dreams of Sushi.
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+[10:15] Uh is basically uh it's playing at um took today, I think, August 23rd of today, right? Uh yeah. Yeah, 4 p.m. at MoMA. And uh the film is about Jiro One, the best uh Jiro uh Jiro Ono, the best, the best.
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+[10:26] I mean I hate that best, but like you know, one of the world world's most renowned sushi chefs in Japan in Tokyo and chronicle chronicles his lifelong uh complete devotion to becoming ever better at his craft. And uh Tom believes that uh I uh have made some comments that suggest I would admire his work ethic. Um I've seen it. You seen it? Was it good?
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+[10:44] It was good. Yeah, good. Compare it to the Faron Adrian movie. Faron Adria was a bit better. Well it's relatable, I guess.
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+[10:44] Right. Well, so we actually had the filmmakers on uh A Taste of the Past, episode 60, for those who want to hear. Please go, please go listen to that. Now, here's the thing. Uh view uh listeners uh to this show are kind of specialized, uh they have specialized interests, right?
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+[11:06] So I went to go see the what's the name of the Fron Adrian movie that we we uh did the event for? What's it called? Um it's a movie about Faron Adria. Anyway, it's uh so some reviewers have criticized that it's basically just food porn, and how much can you how how how long can you sit and watch Ferron tasting different pieces of food? This is a valid criticism for someone who's not interested in the process of making food, right?
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+[11:33] So uh I went to go see it and I thought it was extremely interesting because it gives you an insight into the way that uh L Boey and Faron, how they work, how they cook, how their process is. Uh and as uh as a cook, as someone who's interested in cooking, to me that's extremely valuable because Faron is clearly uh at the at the very top of uh his game, the top of the field in what he does. Um so it it would be extremely interesting, I think very, very worthwhile for anyone interested in Japanese cooking techniques, which I am extremely interested in. I wish I could go to it today because I would, but unfortunately I can't drop what I'm doing this afternoon to go. Um I'm sure I'll see it eventually.
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+[12:17] Uh it's very difficult to get an insight into Japanese cooking techniques because uh the mode of learning in many high-end Japanese kitchens is one of years of careful observation without uh much explanation, let's put it that way. And so, really the only way to learn what they're doing. You're never you know, you're never gonna learn what you're doing, right? Because you have to sit there for you know two years uh you know washing the rice before they let you cook it or whatever, whatever the old, you know, the old things are. But um in a in a in a Japanese or really any cooking demonstration, don't who cares what they're saying?
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+[12:56] Don't pay any attention because nine times out of ten, they're not telling you what's really going on anyway. Pay attention to their hands, pay attention to the ingredients they're using, pay attention to the the way their hands move, uh, and these kinds of things are going to give you a big clue as to what is uh what is actually going on in the food. So and this is why videos and live demonstrations from top-notch people are so valuable to watch. And so the ability to see in a movie uh someone like this working is invaluable. So I do I do hope to see it, and it could almost be I mean it can't be silent because I have to hear what the ingredients are, what's going on, but the explanation and any sort of plot or arc or narrative, I really could care less.
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+[13:42] Uh and then and I shouldn't probably say that, that's a mean thing to say, but you know what, but you know what I'm saying. It's like for me, it's gonna be valuable out of the way. Do you think it did uh who do you see it with? Mark. Did Mark find Mark we're talking Mark Ladner from Del Posto.
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+[13:53] Did he find it valuable? Yeah. He did. Yeah, I bet. You know, Mark likes fish, Mark likes to push a fish.
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+[13:58] Mark used to get in those whole Kindai Tunis, butcher them up and uh and send them back. Anyway, so very valuable for anyone interested in learning something about Japanese cooking. Um, thank you, Tom, for writing in that information. Uh another uh interesting uh piece of uh little tidbit comes from Steve Crandall via the Wall Street Journal. Uh they have an article called Scooped, and here's something I'd never heard of.
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+[14:21] Fracking. Have you heard of fracking before? No. I mean, other than the I'm gonna okay. Yes, I have heard of fracking from Battlestar Galactica.
+
+[14:28] Yes, I have seen the new Battlestar Galactica thing. But I hadn't heard of fracking the uh the term, and uh fracking is basically hydraulic fracturing. So what you do is you're drilling for uh oil or whatever, you drill a pipe way the hell down into whatever you're gonna do, and then you put a huge pressure on it to fracture the rock under there, and then you pump in uh junk like sand or whatever to allow whatever you're trying to get, oil, to filter through that, and you get it. It's a way of getting more oil or water or whatever out of it, but a lot of people are pissed off about it because it can, you know, pump poison into the aquifer, stuff like that. You know, anyway.
+
+[15:04] So, I will read the Wall Street Journal thing because it has to do with guargum, guargum. Fracking has a new victim, ice cream. Oh, oh, I was just handed by by j by Jack a no frack button. Jack, I didn't realize that we were uh we were uh an anti-fracking. Well, it doesn't represent my opinion.
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+[15:21] Somebody left that here. Oh, so in other words, some of our hosts and our guests are anti-frack folk. Correct. Yeah. Hmm.
+
+[15:27] Okay. Well, apparently they're fra this is anti-frack button from the catskill citizens.org. Uh so presumably there's some fracking, whole lot of fracking going on up in the cat skills. Presumably for water and not for oil. Anyway, uh, fracking has a new victim, ice cream.
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+[15:44] Hydraulic fracting, this uh fracturing, the sometimes controversial oil and gas drilling method, is causing tremors in a small but vital corner of the food industry. This is I'm reading verbatim for the Wall Street Journal. Glargum, produced mainly in India, helps thicken foods ranging from ketchup to ice cream. And the problem is it's also mighty useful in fracking fluid. Fracking fluid is the fluid that they pump pump pump into the uh into these places to actually cause the pressure to fracture them.
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+[16:07] With the surge in fracking, demar uh demand for guar gum has rocketed. Having often languished under 50 cents per pound, guar gum has recently changed hands at over three dollars. Uh and so this is gonna cause problems because they use a lot of guar in ice cream. And the reason they use guar is because guar is cheap. Uh the guar is from a seed and it's very similar to another product called locust bean gum.
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+[16:33] Locust bean gum is actually for a lot of applications better, but uh because locust bean gum doesn't have a kind of taste, and most guar is kind of crappy tasting, it tastes kind of crap. It has a beanie, it's called a beanie taste, kind of like eating uh black-eyed pea flour, if you've ever done that. I don't know, I don't know why you would. I have many times. But anyway, uh so uh they you know, TIC gums, the good people from TIC gums make a something called flavor free guar, which is awesome.
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+[16:58] And guar and uh gel-an and other hydrocolloid is what we use to make the stretchy ice cream that I like so well. Uh but guar has been cheap, so if guar prices go up, good for the poor sons of guns that have to sit there and harvest guar. You know what I mean? Good for them. You know, if we have to pay like, you know, a nickel more for our ice cream.
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+[17:16] First of all, three dollars a pound, let's put this in perspective, what three dollars a pound means for uh guar. So you're gonna have well under, well under a half, one half of one percent of uh guar in your ice cream, okay? So we're talking that uh, you know, a minuscule amount cost wise increase in uh your ice cream. So if all of a sudden a bunch of people uh in the oil industry, and I'm not saying I'm not pro frac, not pro-frat here, but uh it, you know, i if some poor sucker in India gets more for their guar seeds as a result of this, God bless them. I'll pay the extra five tenths of a penny for my ice cream.
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+[18:01] Does this make any sense, Nastasha? Yes. Yeah, anyway. All right. GWAR!
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+[18:05] All right. Uh guar, it yeah, I like war. I mean, it's it's interesting. Um our good friend Paul Adams from Popular Science. He uh writes mainly for their online, but I think he's gonna be doing something in the magazine as well.
+
+[18:17] Uh he did a nice write-up of the Glenn Livitt uh experiment I did in New Orleans where I was separate separating Glenn Livitt Scotch into uh oak and and spirits, and yeah, you can read about it on PopScience.com. Uh anyway, he writes in that popular science is doing some challenges, and uh maybe some of our readers are interested in it so the idea is is that uh some knucklehead, and the the website is uh innocentive.com, inocentive, C-E-N-T-A, like like innovation incentive, indocentive.com. So they basically offer an award, and the idea is that any knucklehead who wants to can write in and uh you know propose a solution to the problems, and if you win, you get either $10,000 or a chunk of that $10,000, and the guaranteed minimum uh the guaranteed minimum like maximum how am I gonna put this? So the the there will be someone who gets at least five thousand dollars. They might get the full ten thousand and they are gonna give ten thousand dollars away.
+
+[19:12] Make sense now? Yeah. Alright, so this one here is uh, and this one, by the way, is the one he sent us, already has three hundred and seventy-three people who have signed up with solutions. Most of them I'm sure suck. Oh, come on.
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+[19:25] Oh, come on. Most things in the world are bad, so why wouldn't most of the solutions to this problem be bad? The problem is, over time, low fat batter for baked products sticks to the baking surface of aluminum baking pans. No duh. Right?
+
+[19:39] Uh I I didn't mean it that way. The stuck batter burns and must be removed from the baking surface. The seeker, that's the company here, is looking for creative ideas for reducing either the adhesion of batter to the baking service or for improving the speed and efficiency of the cleaning process, and more information is available from their challenge description. And so basically, they want you to come up with a new release agent or a nonstick baking service or a new way of cleaning, but you only have a couple more days to solve that problem. Presumably they're gonna have more of these.
+
+[20:05] I have a solution. But add some freaking fat to the batter. You know what I mean? Add some freaking fat. What is the problem with having a little fat?
+
+[20:13] Here's the thing, right? What? You're gonna help them out. No, they're not gonna add fat to it because they want to make a low fat product, and therein lies their problem. Therein lies the problem.
+
+[20:25] Look, why is a waffle batter different from a pancake batter? Hint. It has more fat in it so that you can get it off of the waffle iron, right? Uh when you have fat in these things, right? Typically, if you're a normal human being and you're not paying attention to what's going on, you eat slightly less of it and you're slightly more satisfied because there's more fat in it and you get more sated.
+
+[20:47] The idea that you I mean, like, you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying like have your baked goods swim swimming in grease like a Popeye's biscuit, which are also delicious, even though that you don't like Popeye's biscuits? I don't like biscuits. You don't like biscuits? Jack, help me out here.
+
+[21:01] You don't like biscuits? People. People! This is what I'm dealing with that. They don't like biscuits.
+
+[21:08] Yeah, you know what else, Jack? Like, this is interesting. She'll like later on, she won't say it on the air, but she'll be like, it's because I'm so discriminating. What? What?
+
+[21:14] Do you say things like I don't like peanuts because I have a more discriminating palate? No, it's not that I can't discriminate a peanut. It's that they're delicious. Biscuits are delicious. We need to talk about this for a minute.
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+[21:25] Like, even if it even if I can't answer all the questions, what is it you don't like about a biscuit? I don't like how how dry and flaky they are. Well, why don't you put butter on the biscuit? No, I still I just I really don't like biscuits. I like bread.
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+[21:45] I also like bread. I don't like biscuits. I see here's another thing. This is hard tack. It's nothing like hard tack.
+
+[21:52] Hard tack is a form of biscuit similar to a beaten biscuit, which is nowhere near like the standard biscuit that we eat. First of all, there are fluffy biscuits and there are flaky biscuits. And uh a huge range in between depending on uh on the hydration ratio and how how they're mixed and how they're formed. Okay. So let's just start there.
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+[22:11] And uh and then like this is the kind of a classic thing that I don't understand. And and so, like, you know, if anyone ever, you know, uh tries to analyze uh like the relate the working relationship here, here's what I don't get. I don't like biscuits because I like bread. What she leaves off is like uh uh an implicit instead. Like I like bread instead of biscuits.
+
+[22:32] I can have in a single meal, I would consume several slices of bread, and then were I handed a biscuit, I would also consume several biscuits. Jack, back me up on this. I uh he doesn't want to get in. He doesn't want to get into it. Anyway, don't like biscuits.
+
+[22:46] Don't like biscuits. I love biscuits. Yeah, biscuits are good. I like a flaky biscuit. Especially the biscuits at Roberta's.
+
+[22:52] Uh, they are good. Seriously, that's not even promotion. They're just good biscuits. I can't remember. Do they do uh a flaky or a little bit?
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+[22:58] We'll have to give you guys we'll get you two biscuits. Yeah, please. That'd be great. And we'll talk about them next time. Anyway, uh my saying is just add a little bit of fat to your baked goods and cook it a little bit less.
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+[23:10] Whether it's uh a waffle or or some sort of you know, you're not gonna cook biscuit in an iron, obviously. Like maybe it's cornbread or something, and they're trying to re reduce the amount of fat in a cornbread. Absurd. Absurd. Absurd.
+
+[23:23] Okay. Uh not really. Look, I'm sure there's many people who think it's a good idea to reduce the fat in their baked goods. I just happen to think they're wrong. They are wrong.
+
+[23:31] Yeah. Just eat less. Just eat less. Right. Just eat less and be more satisfied with a better product.
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+[23:38] Right? Right. Although apparently this is marketing that hasn't worked. People just eat, then they're like, oh, it's okay to eat high fat, so they just eat more of it. Stupid.
+
+[23:47] By the way, uh there we spoke to a person uh this last week named Pat Brown. And uh Pat Brown is a doctor and it is uh has a a company out in um in the San Francisco Bay Area, and he's interested in making uh basically not meat analogs, but things that someone would choose over meat. In other words, that they they they they are a viable main source of protein that are built not just as a protein that you know has crap sprayed on it that kind of resembles meat, but actually engineered from the ground up to be delicious, such that someone who is a meat eater would choose it based on its taste and its r inherent uh low cost over uh meat. What do you think? Okay.
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+[24:40] Anyway, gonna next time I'm out in the San Francisco Bay area, I'm gonna I'm gonna visit him. But he's the only person I've spoken to who wants to do plant-based, and he has a kind of an interesting philosophy. He wants to put all uh meat and dairy farmers literally he'll say this, he wants to put them out of business. He's like, he's like, you know, to make an omelet, you gotta crack a few eggs. The world's gonna be around for a long time, and these guys are hurting the planet, so even if it hurts them right now, you know, you know, you can't you can't help out someone now at the expense of killing your grandkids, which is basically vegetarian?
+
+[25:11] Yes, he's a vegetarian. But he doesn't necessarily want he doesn't want to make he doesn't want to beat you over the head and have you become a vegetarian because he's a vegetarian. He wants you to buy this uh this plant-based food because it's so freaking delicious and so cheap that it's what you want to do. See what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[25:29] So it's an interesting reversal, and he seems like an interesting guy. I can't wait to go out there and meet him. Okay. Uh have a question in from Priscilla Andrews regarding transglutaminase noodles. And I'm gonna have to apologize in advance, Priscilla.
+
+[25:44] I don't have the answer for you right now. But the question is, what is the starting ratio in using meat glue and gelatin to glue fruits and vegetables together? Any help is appreciated. Okay, so what we're talking about here is um using transglutaminase, meat glue, which is an enzyme that uh bonds proteins together to make gelatin into something that won't melt when it's reheated. So this is a technique that uh was developed by my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufresne of WD-50 restaurant, where what you do is you take gelatin, not right now, normally gelatin, when you heat it, uh, it melts, and when uh it when it cools down again, it turns back into a gel.
+
+[26:25] If you take transglutaminase and mix it in with the gelatin, the gelatin cross-links, and now it no longer melts again. So it sets and never again will it melt. And so Wiley uses this technique to um basically uh make noodles out of anything. So quinoa, peas, uh peanut butter, things that you can't normally glue together, uh, or can't normally make a sheet or a noodle out of, he can make one out of that can be fried, uh, tossed like a pasta, uh, anything. So basically the trick with it is, and I would start with about one percent trans.
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+[27:04] I'm just making this up because I don't have the recipe in front of me, and Hervé Malivere, who runs the who runs the tech stuff when I'm not at the s at the French culinary, he has the recipe because Wiley came and demoed it once, and I just keep on forgetting to write it down. But I would best it bet it's somewhere about one percent transglutaminase, not activa RM, which is meat glue plus uh casein, milk protein, but activa Ti, which is just the meat glue. And the reason is is because you want uh gelatin to link to other gelatin. If gelatin links to a casein molecule, that doesn't increase the gel strength. Okay.
+
+[27:41] And also, if you're gluing together a veg or something that has a lot of protein in it, right, like peanut butter or something, you don't want the gelatin bonding to the protein from your product either. So uh what you what you want to do, and uh John McGee, Harold's son, who's one of the TAs in the lecture series up at Harvard, the food lecture series, which I'm gonna be doing with Harold uh on September what? 6th and 8th. 6 and 8th, and there's a public lecture for those as well, right? Yeah, I think there's a public lecture in the evening uh after the students go there.
+
+[28:13] Uh so his son uh did like a couple days style with Wiley to figure out this problem of what's the best way to do it. Uh and of course I forgot. But basically, what you do is is you make a paste, you dehydrate it to get a lot of the water out. You don't want it to be too watery. Then you make a gel slurry and use however much gelatin you would normally use to set what you're doing.
+
+[28:32] I think that's a good starting point, or maybe a little more. Uh while it's warm but not hot, the gel, uh, the gelatin. Mix in transglutaminase, uh activa Ti, right? Let it sit for several minutes, start crosslinking, you know, while it's warm, and then uh whisk that together uh with your uh product, sheet it out, and let it sit overnight in the fridge, at which point it should be set. But I wish I had a better information for the starting ratios.
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+[28:58] Alright, so we're gonna take one more commercial break and come back and answer some questions. Call in your questions to 718 4972128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking issues! That's a pretty good Dave impression.
+
+[29:09] Thank you. I thought our little wild time had just become. I guess you kinda scared yourself. You turn wrong. But if you have a change of heart.
+
+[30:09] Ricky don't lose that number. You don't wanna call nobody else. Send it off in a letter to your cell. Ricky don't lose that number. It's the only one you want.
+
+[30:35] Uh Jack and Nastasha making fun of me for not being able to remember the dang number of the radio station and furthermore making fun of me for the earlier one, the Iron to ride my bicycle for my constant bike problems here in the city. Thanks, guys. Thanks. I appreciate the support. Yeah.
+
+[30:50] Alright. Caller, you're on the air. Hi Dave. Uh I have a question about gum Arabic and simple syrups. I'm in the New York area and I'm looking to pick some up.
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+[31:00] And also I would like to just know how to add it to simple syrup. Like a just, you know, one cup water, one cup sugar, how much to put in. Okay. So um it's interesting. We're gonna pick it up in if you want if you're in the New York City, if you're New York City, I believe uh Calustian's uh on Lexington in the 20s has it.
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+[31:20] Um if they don't have it, there's a place called Dual Specialty Shop down in uh where is it? First Avenue, Avenue A? Mm-hmm down near Death Co. The bar. Uh that's how I remember where it is.
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+[31:31] Okay, it's close to Death and Co. Uh and it's downstairs. They might have it. If not, there's plenty of mail order supplies uh for gum arabic, but one of those two places would be the first places that I would go in the city to get them. Get it.
+
+[31:43] Now gum arabic is very interesting because uh as a hydrocolloid, and you know hydrocolloids for those of you that don't know what the heck I'm talking about are kind of these new group of thickeners. Uh the what's interesting about it is most hydrocolloids are uh long uh linear chain molecules with a small number of backbones on it, right? Uh small number of little side units rather. Um the gum arabic is the only normal one other than uh amylopectin, which is the big bald starch molecule, uh uh that is ball-shaped, right? And so what that means for gum arabic is that you can have very high percentage gum arabic solutions that aren't too thick.
+
+[32:26] Right? So you can put a fairly high uh uh uh percentage of gum arabic into your solutions and still have them be portable fluid, right? The other cool thing about gum arabic is gum arabic has in it a protein that is is basically it comes with the gum and and originally it was considered an impurity but when you remove the gum the protein from the gum arabic the gum arabic doesn't work anymore uh to do what you want it to do. Because gum arabic isn't just a thickener although it is a bodying agent, right? And when you add a lot of it it can add a lot of body and viscosity to your syrup.
+
+[33:01] It's also uh an emulsifier so you can get flavors into things using it and and it's pretty cool because unlike other emulsifiers when it's diluted it doesn't break and that's why it used to be made for it used to be used uh to as an emulsifier for soda syrups. Um now they have other things that are, you know, not necessarily uh dependent upon the sedan to f for their sourcing. Uh but the and are cheaper. But it would that was one of its original uses. It's so it could probably also uh stabilize a head in a shake and drink or stabilize bubbles uh in in a shake and drink.
+
+[33:36] So it's very interesting. I don't happen to have any of the ratios in my head, but what I would do is put the gum arabic into uh the water first. Um it should dissolve I believe at room temperature, but you can heat it to speed it. It's not going to hurt it at all, right? I would try to powder the gum arabic as much as you can beforehand uh to speed the dissolution of it.
+
+[33:58] And uh then after that uh you know you could heat it, add the sugar to it and make the I would definitely do it that way not the other way around. I would add the gum arabic first and then add the uh sugar afterwards. Um and you can add you can add a fairly large amount but I would look into like any one of you know all the old references have it. I think maybe the imbibe uh the old you know the Dave Wendrich the first you know the imbibe book I think maybe has a couple recipes for it. But that that one's easy to Google I just don't have it in my head.
+
+[34:25] Alright thanks Dave. No problem. Good luck with it. Alright thank you. Alright.
+
+[34:31] So let's see what we're gonna go into now. D uh okay we have a question from E Papineau just wrote in wants to know about smoking tomatoes. Well I've never smoked a tomato. Yeah. Have you ever had a smoked tomato?
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+[34:45] I've had smoked tomato things. Yeah no I've never smoked a tomato. But in general when you're smoking something uh the rule is is that uh I mean I don't know you're gonna pick up color or not, but you're gonna want to get uh it's somewhat dry and tacky, not overly wet. You're obviously uh gonna want to peel the tomatoes uh uh or at very least kind of split them, but I would peel them and semi-desiccate them, like partially dry them first. Uh then after they're partially dry, then I would smoke them and then finish the drying out.
+
+[35:14] I mean, I wouldn't you know a tomato, when you're smoking something, uh smoking has certain kind of preservative effects and bacteriostatic effects and things like that. But really with a tomato, uh it's just it's got a huge water content. And so to preserve it, you're really gonna want to just reduce that water content. And so that's gonna be the main preservation technique. If you want the smoked flavor to pick up, you don't want it too heavy or to become acrid.
+
+[35:37] I would just make sure that they're mostly, you know, maybe uh two-thirds to three quarters dry, then smoke them until they pick up the flavor that you want, and then continue your dehydration uh at a low temperature uh so you don't alter the flavor too much from that point out. That seems like good advice, right? Yes. The rare piece of good advice. Okay.
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+[35:58] Like that name. Botkin? Botkin, like that. Uh Derek Bodkin uh writes in uh about uh rice flour. You know, I have botkins in my family.
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+[36:08] Really? Yes. Anyway. Uh Derek Bodkin writes in on uh rice flour. Hi everyone, another quick question.
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+[36:15] I've got a bunch of rice flour. What sort of cool things can I do with it? Since it lacks gluten, right? I'd imagine baking with it would be tricky. How about a roux?
+
+[36:24] All right, well, interesting you should say. There's no such thing as just rice flour, right? I mean, there is, it's labeled that way. But basically, rice flour breaks down into two separate kinds of things. There's glutinous rice flour, aka sweet rice flour, aka waxy rice flour, aka sticky rice flour, right?
+
+[36:43] And that's rice flour that's made from what they call glutinous rice. And what glutinous rice is, it has no gluten, but it's very high, very low in amylose, the uh long-chain um starch molecules I told you before, and extremely high, like 100% amylopectin. And uh what those are what that kind of flour is great for is making mochi. And mochi, uh, you know, you don't have to make it into flour. I've made I can make mochi from just from sticky rice, which is kind of the cool way to do it, right?
+
+[37:12] And you you know the really cool way to do it is to get sumo wrestler dudes in loincloths beating it with mallets after you cook it. That's the real cool way to make mochi. But most of us are just gonna buy uh glutinous rice flour or mochi flour, they sell. If you really want the high grade stuff, buy stuff called mochi flour. And you mix it, and the cool thing is is it's got this dense flavor, but you can grill it or fry it, and it puffs up like a lunatic.
+
+[37:33] Amylipein is fantastic at puffing. Whether or not it's a uh, you know, semi-dried and then it puffs like a puff snack, or whether or not it's just like in a donut form. If you ever had a mochi donut, like Japanese mochi's donut, great. Anyway, so that's one form of uh rice flour. Uh and then the other one is you know, rice flour that has a certain amount of um uh amylose in it.
+
+[37:55] Now, uh, and that's what you use for most other kind of cooking applications. So, in terms of uh thickening for making a roux, right? So roux we typically think of uh with wheat flour. Now, uh wheat flour is kind of the weakest of the flours in terms of thickening. Rice is rice flour is gonna thicken a little bit more than wheat flour, corn a little bit more than rice, arrowroot a little bit more than corn, and potato the most uh starch.
+
+[38:20] The problem with something like potato starch, and the reason we don't use it more often is even though it makes things super thick, as you cook it, it breaks down very quickly, right? Cornstarch also has problems because it gets thick really real fast and it's gonna stay thick, but when it cools down, it sets up a lot harder than when it was hot. Whereas wheat starch is a little less finicky that way than corn. But rice is kind of in between the corn and the wheat and will work fine for a roux, especially if you want to do something uh that's gluten-free, if that's interested, uh interesting to you. Um it should work uh just fine.
+
+[38:52] Uh it's also used a lot in uh deep frying as either uh a portion of your battery or as uh uh the dusting beforehand. The reason it's used is because it doesn't have any gluten. It makes things very crispy without making them hard, right? Because it doesn't have the kind of the protein that forms together you get from a wheat flour. So adding a certain amount of white rice, you know, neutral white rice flour to a batter recipe is going to increase the crispy crunchiness, but not the hardness of the batter.
+
+[39:22] So Heston Blumenthal uses it in his um in his uh fish and chips recipe. Uh a lot of Thai recipes have it, and you can make actually uh almost like puffed uh crispy snacks just by making a rice batter and fr and frying it, and it's good as a garnish. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily eat it um on on its own. In bread baking, you can add a certain amount to bread to round out the wheat flour and reduce the amount of wheat in there slightly, although I don't really see the point in that. Uh, but it is used as a dusting for almost like an anti-stick along with flour, uh, in the same way that cornmeal is used for.
+
+[39:56] So it can be used that way. Uh another interesting thing you might want to look at is something that I used to make like a long time ago. When I was rating my mom's cookbooks, uh, one of the first cookbooks I rated, I started making bread uh in college in a uh they used uh General Electric or Westinghouse, I forget, used to sell turkey ovens, and they're basically like large crock pots that you cook turkeys in for Thanksgiving. And in the 50s and 60s, these were used because that you wanted to be able to use your oven for something else and cook your turkey uh on your countertop. And it kind of fell out of popularity, probably because they probably don't make a good turkey.
+
+[40:29] I don't know, I never cooked a turkey one. But I picked one up for about two bucks uh at a thrift shop when I was in college and used it to bake bread in my dorm room. And one of the first books I stole from my mom was her 1977 copy of the Sunset Bed Break uh bread baking uh book, and uh which at the time I thought was a pretty good book. And uh they had something in it called Dutch Crunch, which is a bread coating, uh bread treat trust treatment that I've never seen really around, but I'm sure people still make it, but it's really cool, and it's a rice flour trick. So here's what you do.
+
+[41:01] You take, and I'm sorry it's in tablespoons, but I just wrote it down this morning from the book. You one and a half tablespoon sugar. I still kept the book. I stole it, you know, 20 change years ago, more than 20 years ago, and I still have it. Anyway, uh 1.5 tablespoon sugar, four pac four packs of yeast, right?
+
+[41:17] Which is a lot. Pay attention to that, four packs, half teaspoon salt, three-quarters cup rice flour, two teaspoons of oil, and uh basically a half to two-thirds cup warm water. You let it stir it, let it rise for 30 minutes, and you paint it on your bread before you bake it, and it gets this like intensely thick, crunchy, like funny looking but delicious crust crust uh called Dutch Crunch. So try that out, Derek, and tell me how it works. Alright, so have an interesting, and this is one of the reasons I was late because this is what I was uh researching, and time just ran away from me.
+
+[41:51] Hastings from the Underground Bar, which is a portion of the Underground Food Collective, uh writes in about cherry pits. We're processing what's essentially a pallet's worth of cherries at our prep kitchen right now, and I'm sitting on an insane quantity of cherry pits. We've made delicious demonstration batches of cherry pit amaretto with brandy and a relatively high concentration of cherry pits. But I'm generally aware of the risks associated with the pits of stone fruit and haven't been able to find a concrete source uh that conclusively outlines how they can be manipulated or processed to eliminate that risk pot prior to infusion. Varying sources say roasting or blanching the pits takes care of the problem.
+
+[42:26] I assume if a method works for one variety of stone pits, it would be applicable to the others as well. Could I weigh in on this? Earlier this week, Hastings emailed Darcy O'Neill to ask the same question because Darcy had a recipe for infused maraschino liqueur that involved the pits of the beraschino cherry. They're not really whatever the cherries are called. Anyway, the uh cherry, cherry pits.
+
+[42:45] It's an aside uh uh in a larger post on preserving cocktail cherries. The problem is the amaretto that uh Hastings is making and some of the other applications they've been toying with involve pit concentrations that are twenty to one hundred times greater than the recipe Darcy referenced. Okay, Darcy O'Neill, for those of you not uh do don't know cocktail blogs, uh, is one of the great uh like scientific technical uh drink and cocktail writers, wrote a book called uh Fix the Pumps, which is extremely influential over the last year and a half uh or two years, I forget how long ago it came out, basically reviving uh old soda traditions, and is in fact is selling products uh that have been kind of extinct for a while, including lactart, which is uh, you know, uh uh lactic acid-based uh acidifier for use in sodas, and uh uh acid phosphates, which is uh phosphoric acid-based uh soda acidifiers. So he's selling these things, and that book uh extremely, extremely influential in the comeback of interesting sodas. I mean, people have been working on interesting sodas for a while, but kind of without a lot of basis.
+
+[43:53] And he's providing a lot of basis and contextualizing of the old recipes for uh kind of modern people. So uh underred by JQ public, but very influential among the kind of the cocktail and drink thinking crowd. Fix the pumps. Anyway, so uh Darcy wrote back to um, and by the way, in case you don't know what's going on, stone fruits contain um two different things, many different things, but two things that people are worried about amygdalin, uh, which basically breaks down into cyanide, which is why, and that's why you know cyanide smells like uh burnt almonds, you don't want too much. Anyway, amygdalene and a lesser quantity of something called prunicine, which is, you know, also breaks down into cyanide.
+
+[44:32] So uh Darcy wrote back to Hastings. The problem with amygdalene and the stone and pits uh is that the form in there, which is what's called a glycoside, which is a sugar bound to the uh cyanide, right? Uh is only released when it encounters specific digestive enzymes which are found in our digestive systems. Uh and Darcy's had some conversations with sugar syrup companies that make uh syrups from fruit stones and say that there aren't any cyan there isn't any cyanide in their product. And the problem with that method, Darcy says is Darcy says is that they're actually looking for cyanide and not for the amygdalene, which is what's going to get you when you when you do it.
+
+[45:06] Uh but he says that small amounts of pits aren't gonna hurt you, but Hastings is pointing out what the hell, I'm using 20 to 100 times what you use. Am I gonna die or not? Well, it's a very interesting question, Hastings. I don't know if you're going to die. Here's what happens.
+
+[45:20] When you eat a whole bunch of products with amygdalin in it, like uh apricot kernels or the classic one, or uh uh pits from cherries, etc. Uh the amygdalene in it breaks down and forms cyanide, uh, you know, uh cyanide, uh HCN, you know, hydrocyanic acid or whatever, and benzaldehyde. Benzaldehyde is what gives you the taste that you want, right? And it's done via an enzymatic reaction. Now, there is uh enzyme in the pit.
+
+[45:46] So, what you want to do, the way they get rid of this is you grind, you don't roast it. Roasting, I've you know, peace some people say roasting gets rid of uh gets rid of it. Roasting's gonna get rid of any free cyanide in the pit, but isn't gonna degrade the amygdalene at all. So as soon as you eat it, you're still gonna have it. What I would do, and what everyone does uh commercially is they break it, they grind up the seeds roughly, then they soak them in water for a period of one to three days.
+
+[46:13] What's happening there is cyanide, uh free the free cyanide things are very soluble in water, whereas the uh the benzaldehyde, which is the aroma and the flavor you want, is not. Furthermore, uh enzyme, it's it's soluble, but not that much. Um enzymes are in the pit, and when you break it up, those enzymes are gonna go to work on the amygdalene and break it down into the uh the cyan free cyanide stuff and the stuff with the flavor, the benzaldehyde. So what you then do is you soak it for a couple of days, then you drain it and you cook it. And when you cook it, any free cyanide is extremely volatile and will boil off because the cyanide, the stuff that's gonna kill you, boils off at like 78 Fahrenheit.
+
+[46:53] You know, obviously leave the lid off the pan and don't breathe in the vapors. Uh and then what's left over should be fairly uh amygdalin free and fairly cyanide free. That said, I can't give you any numbers that are gonna be 100% uh safe. Um it's kind of a tough thing. I can't I can't really give you a uh a number and say that you won't die, but that is the way things are, things are reduced.
+
+[47:16] You can further reduce the amount of uh amygdala stuff through uh fermentation, but you have to get a specific strain of yeast, the one that does tempeh works or specific bacteria, specific funguses, they work like t tempeh fermentation works and certain other things, but don't count on it. Um, so what do you what do you think, man? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
+
+[47:37] I saw another uh article while I was researching this called Why Are So Many Plants cyanogenic? Interesting question, right? Uh and I didn't know so many were. But it turns out that a disproportionate number of our food plants uh have these glycosides, these sugar bound with uh cyanide uh and other stuff uh in them. And the theory of this paper, why are so many plants cyanogenic is that um these plants don't get eaten by uh animals as much, and but humans are good at figuring out how to not get poisoned by them, and so we tend to eat them, and that's why a disproportionate number of these products are eaten by people.
+
+[48:15] And um some large number uh percentage uh have certain stuff in them. So uh among them, wheat and maize have a small amount, I guess, in the sprouts to stop the sprouts from getting eaten. But sorghum, the sprouts, the seeds are fine, but the sprouts have huge amounts of it in it, and so sorghum sprouts are poisonous unless you cook the hell out of them. And I always knew sprouts were poisonous, right? It's just further confirmation that sprouts, she is a poison, right?
+
+[48:44] Anyway, so I hope this has been somewhat useful. And here's what we're gonna round out with today. John Larry writes in and says, uh, my name is John Larry. I would like to know if you have an old pressure cooker. My god, do I have old pressure cookers, right, Nastasha?
+
+[48:57] Yeah, you do. Yeah, we do. Uh available that I'm looking for less expensive ones than the ones that I have. Could you let me know the prices for old pressure cookers? And I'd be happy to pray by credit card.
+
+[49:07] Well, John, pay by credit card. Yeah. See, I thought that was spam. It's not spam. No one writes a letter asking for a used pressure cooker that's spam.
+
+[49:16] It was a dick it was the words you used that made me think. Pressure cooker or credit card. Which was anyways. Uh John. Uh fellow person with two last names like myself.
+
+[49:28] Uh two first names rather. Why? Because your mom couldn't afford. My mom couldn't afford a last name, so I've got two first ones. Boom.
+
+[49:34] Anyway, so uh while we are not in the business of selling used pressure cookers. I do agree that pressure cookers cost quite a bit of money. Uh you know, uh the pressure cooker that I use every day costs well over 200 bucks. You can get a decent pressure cooker or figure workarounds for pressure cookers. I'm not gonna tell you to modify a pressure cooker like I did on the blog last week.
+
+[49:56] Um, but uh, you know, you can get one for uh under a hundred dollars. I wouldn't recommend buying a used pressure cooker because the seals on it are probably about to go anyway, and you're gonna have to buy a new seal. Could be clogged up. It's just a world of headache. Go out there and research one of the cheaper uh pressure cookers.
+
+[50:12] I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna push any any brands online. But uh yeah. Imagine can you imagine if we were like if we ever had a rummage sale, it would be crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[50:21] Anyways, we have one to raise some money. A rummage sale? The rummage sale. You don't want to rummage through my stuff. Anyways, uh today, tomorrow I'm flying out to Columbia.
+
+[50:30] We're gonna be doing a uh demon a demo in uh in Columbia, the country, uh, and in Bogota, who who's I can't pronounce properly, but I'm gonna be doing a variation on milk soup, on on Colombian milk soup. Uh, which should be interesting. Fly back for one day just to do this radio show. That's a lie. But I'm here though, right?
+
+[50:47] Yeah, you are here. Yeah, I'm here. I'll do that, and then I fly out, and then the next Tuesday, I'll be in Harvard. So I'm gonna try two weeks from now to do it f live from Harvard with McGee. It's not during the class time, is it?
+
+[50:58] The show? I don't think so. I think I'm gonna be away too. So I might be able to do it. Anyway, so I will have been, uh, next time I speak to you people, I will have been to South America for the very first time.
+
+[51:09] Cooking issues. Oh, you dare. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby.
+
+[51:38] The following is a message from NOFA and Y. Do you dig local food? Love organic farmers? Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food system? Then sign up today to take the NOFA and Y's Locavore Challenge this September.
+
+[51:54] Join 5,000 other New York Locavores that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system. Learn more at www.ny locavore challenge.com.
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+[0:05] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. The following is a message from NOFA and Y. Do you dig local food?
+
+[0:28] Love organic farmers. Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food system? Then sign up today to take the NOFA and Y's Locavore Challenge this September. Join 5,000 other New York Locavores that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system. Learn more at www.nylocovore challenge.com.
+
+[1:04] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. It's Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issue coming to you live from Bogota, Columbia. Calling all of your questions to the studio of Brooklyn at 718-497-2128 at 718 Born at 72128. Uh I was supposed to be doing cookie shoes today from Brooklyn, but uh due to the hurricane, which Nastasha apparently wasn't much of a big thing in our area anyway, my flight was canceled, and here I am in Bogota. Right.
+
+[1:37] Nothing happened down there, right? Nothing. You have a caller. I know you want to do it. Oh, and caller, you're on the air.
+
+[1:42] Hey Dave, how are you doing? It's Kevin from Virginia Beach. Hey. I got a question about um I got some calcium hydroxide flaked lime, and I was thinking about um different ways to use it since I got a lot of it. And I was thinking maybe you could use it for spherification, but I'm concerned about it interacting with sodium alginate and producing lye and if that would be a problem.
+
+[1:59] I was wondering if you have any experience with that. Uh well let me think here. No, I don't think it'll do that because um no, I don't think it'll do that. Because you know, you uh you add salt all of this all all the time to uh uh you know you add salt all the time to uh to things that have calcium hydroxide in them in it. I mean cal um yeah, calcium hydroxide in it's not a problem.
+
+[2:23] So, you know, in order to form the lye you'd need to you need to start with sodium and then have the uh hydroxide already attached to it and and then put it in. You're starting with calcium hydroxide, which is much weaker, so it's not it's not gonna be not gonna be an issue. Think about it this way. If you add um pure lye and pure uh hydrochloric acid, right? You don't retain the powers of those two things, you just end up with salt and water.
+
+[2:47] You know what I mean? Right, yeah. And do you think it would taste okay? Uh okay, so those are two separate questions. Uh uh, you know, look, it can't it look, it can't taste worse than calcium uh calcium chloride does.
+
+[3:05] Calcium chloride's horrible. But I think the real problem with it is that calcium uh hydroxide has a a very low solubility. So I don't think that you would uh necessarily get enough calcium in there to have it uh set properly. I mean it's interesting, I've never tried it. Um you you know, calcium hydroxide um saturates very quickly.
+
+[3:25] So typically you act if you're gonna make something like a soaking solution for uh bananas like Thai style, you can like s mix it with uh, you know, water, let it settle out to the bottom, pour the stuff off up the top, and that's basically saturated uh calcium hydroxide. Yeah, that's what I think. Water and what? And what and it tastes like it tastes like uh cement to me. Um I don't know whether that will set algern it or not.
+
+[3:50] Um you know you can have to see you just have to drop a couple it'd be easy to test. You just have to drop a couple of uh pearls into it uh and see whether it sets it. Um but you know you could try it'd be interesting. Let us know it let us know what happens. I mean we use it for uh obviously for niximalizing corn it's the primary thing we use it for.
+
+[4:09] Uh if you were here in Columbia you could chew it with cocoa leaves to release the uh alkaloids although I'm not necessarily advocating that um you can use it to harden vegetables. Uh you can use it to uh well keep things uh firm while preserving the color when you're cooking them. It's really it's good stuff, you know. Yep, okay, awesome. I'll give this out and I'll let you know.
+
+[4:32] Alright thanks a lot. Alright thank you. Uh uh so Columbia is Columbia has some amazing fruits, Nastasha. I think any we're gonna say that. Yeah, amazing fruits.
+
+[4:47] In fact one of the reasons I wanted to come down here was to taste all the fruits and uh we went out partying after one of the events with uh the ambassador to Columbia from the United States and uh I was like, hey come on, you know, any week slip some of those fruits in the bag, you know and no he's like no way. There's no way. There's no way we can get the fruits uh up in uh up in New York and shipped into the United States and it's a shame. They got the one of the main fruits over here that they got that I really like it called uh Lulo and l it it's hard to describe these damn things, but let me put it this way. If you were gonna come open a cocktail bar down here in Bogota, uh you could do some pretty serious drinks.
+
+[5:30] This Lulo drink like has some natural hydrocolor in it. I don't know, and it forms a it forms a head almost like you were shaking with an egg white. Pretty cool stuff. Pretty cool stuff. Uh, if we have time later, I'll just go down some of the crazier uh fruits uh that we had uh so let us get to some email questions.
+
+[5:50] Boop boop boop. Okay. Andrew writes in and he says, uh Andrew Switzer, dear Dave, as a former career barista uh espresso, this is a question about espresso, uh career uh Barista. I'm wondering if you can share more info on your home espresso setup. I know some of the various requirements to have a professional home machine, but I need help with the practical how to and set up.
+
+[6:11] Also, if it seems to be too big a job for my apartment, do you have any advice for achieving foaming milk for coffee lattes at home? My wish is a stove top steaming device capable of achieving microfoam at 140 with a traditional metal steam one. Thanks a bunch. Alright, uh, Andrew, here's the deal. I've had uh in my life two professional espresso machines uh and two different weird kind of home uh machines.
+
+[6:36] Um the professional machine is the way to go. If you're independently wealthy, then and you have a lot of space, then uh purchase like a two-group uh espresso machine uh and install it in your house. Here are the problems. Uh two group espresso machine, and I bought one used at an auction. Uh, you know, I went into it was a uh uh this place was shut down as a result of uh drug activity in um in you know, like in the upper hundreds in Manhattan on Broadway.
+
+[7:03] It was a restaurant. And they locked the restaurant shut. And uh when they reopened it a year later, all the food was rotting, and so no one else wanted to be in that auction but me. I was the only person who was willing to stomach the stench of this place to go in and purchase equipment. So I got a um a fairly you know nice two group ranchillo espresso machine uh for almost nothing.
+
+[7:26] Of course I then had to disassemble it and boil all the parts to get out all the nasty stuff that had accumulated and like animals and made their houses whatever anyway. So I got it to work. Uh problem with these larger machines is the larger machines uh take a lot of electricity. So that one required like a big uh 220 circuit. Um the good news is is well that makes better espresso than the equivalent one group machine and the reason is is that in traditional uh espresso machines they use the the mass of the equipment to provide um the stability the temperature stability and also the ability to have like huge amounts of steam on demand.
+
+[8:03] So that machine even you know made better espresso than the single group professional machine that I have now which is a La San Marco. The problem is I didn't have two twenty, I wasn't able to install it. So if you don't have two twenty or if you don't have a lot of electricity you can get a commercial one group machine that'll run off of one ten. And if you have a lot of money you can buy very temperature stable one group machines uh that run off of one ten uh but they're very expensive uh the professional ones like the dual boiler or any of these ones have very accurate temperature control. Very expensive.
+
+[8:36] Um so you have to make a choice of how much electricity you're gonna have. Secondly you have to make sure that the coffee machine can live near a sink. Uh so what you do is is you put it near a sink um you put a uh I'll go under where the where your sink line is, the line in, go to your cold water tap, install a filter on your cold water, you know, unscrew it, put in a T where the uh water comes in, install uh another branch off of that, which is very simple. This is all Home Depot, like, you know, one hour problems, no big deal. Install a water filter on it.
+
+[9:06] Make sure you put a shut off valve beforehand so you can change the water filter without everything going wrong. You then under the sink there, place the pump for your espresso machine if you have an external pump and most Pro machines have an external pump, you put it down there, and then you run um you run the power wire to the uh to the pump and the uh drain and the um sorry the uh the input line in right up and then what's really good is to drill an extra large hole by the way you're drilling a hole in your counter uh did I mention this you're drilling a hole in your counter uh behind the espresso machine that can make it into uh underneath your sink uh then you want to install a drain hose which they're not very big uh and then tap that into um you know it the equivalent of a uh of a uh basically a like a disposal or washing machine a washing machine drain uh that goes into the thing you want to plug it into another one of those so that your machine uh so your espresso machine can drain uh and make sure that your espresso machine is always above the level of your sink so you can't uh you know have backups uh um on onto the floor out of your espresso machine if your drain clogs up uh and that's basically it I mean uh it's it you know it sounds like it's a lot but you know if you have a drill and you can go uh drill in uh you're set uh you know then you want to make sure you have a place that you can knock out espresso grounds so you're gonna want to uh you know, either to take a a small you know you can buy one or you can make a knock a knockout knockbox uh and it's helpful to have a trash can nearby. Uh but that's it it. It's pretty simple. Um they um you know as as regards if you're not going to get a professional machine uh you know I haven't used anything that does a very good steaming job uh that wasn't a uh pro machine um because you know it's just you it can be done.
+
+[10:56] I mean if you go to coffee geek dot com those people will sit around and make amazing uh foam with uh home machines but it's just you know they I think they they're always sucking wind a little bit because they don't have as much of a steam capacity as let's say even a single group uh one ten machine. Uh but that said you can do this all very cheaply uh if you scrounge around and you can have and let me tell you this it is extreme pleasure to just be able to use a freaking espresso machine like nature intended it which is having it plumbed into your water supply and um having it you know drain into your uh into your drain. Even if you don't have a commercial espresso machine you can usually plumb them by putting a uh a level sensor and a and a and a solenoid valve to uh allow you to put high pressure from your mean on mains uh which is like forty fifty psi put that into a gravity fed container and espresso machine. So there you have it. Hey Nastasha did you know that Bogota is over eight thousand feet high and I haven't had to do this much talking in a row on a phone and I'm actually feeling winded from the altitude.
+
+[12:09] Wow wow more than more than when you ride your bike here and come in. What'd you say? I said you feel more out of breath than when you arrive here after you've ridden your bike in Brooklyn. Uh well I guess that's true, but you can't let yourself mellow out when you're uh when you're in Bogota, there's no there's no mellowing out. The weird thing is that I didn't feel I haven't felt that windy the whole week.
+
+[12:31] It's just uh I guess it's just uh because of uh the the talking high speed because when I was doing my demonstration here, it's the first time like I said it had to be uh done in Spanish. And so it's weird having to constantly stop and like give like three cents, his weight give three cents, his late give three sentences. Doesn't it's uh very strange. Yeah. Very very, very strange.
+
+[12:51] All right. Uh Jason Yi writes in a question on eggs. So I know Dave's done quite a bit on low temperature egg cooking, including the chart recently published in uh David Chang's Lucky Peace magazine, which that we've used that chart. How many times have we used that chart, Nastasha? Many.
+
+[13:06] Harvard uses it too. Who? Harvard. Yeah, Harvard's using it. There's some popular science one.
+
+[13:12] That that chart is like all over all over the place. Anyway. But I was wondering if you guys had any tips for other eggs, quail, ducks, etcetera. I'm assuming times would need to be adjusted for different egg sizes, but what about the composition of eggs? Are substances and different eggs different?
+
+[13:26] And if they're the same as chicken eggs, is the ratio of substances the same? All right. Well, Jason, unfortunately I don't have uh or didn't until right before this happen uh have enough Wi Fi time to research the exact composition of what's going on in these eggs. I will say this. Chicken eggs and duck eggs are uh and quail eggs for that matter are different.
+
+[13:45] Um the the proteins in them are different. They're fairly similar, right? But they are uh different. And the reason I know this is because when you treat uh eggs with uh lye and salt, which is something we do for the Harold McGee class, uh and I really like him. I think we we have it on the blog 'cause Nastasha remember it's on the blog from a couple of years ago.
+
+[14:05] Uh you can just look up lye and eggs. And um that lye basically um denatures the protein slightly or makes it uh less able to bond with itself uh which makes it such that it stays clear even when it's cooked. Uh so that's pretty cool. And you know the um doesn't work as well in chicken eggs as it does in duck eggs and quail eggs. So you know that there's fundamentally a difference between uh those two those three eggs.
+
+[14:33] Um quail interestingly and duck work better than uh chicken. Now I haven't done uh a lot as far as cooking them goes, I haven't done a lot of experimentation to figure out what temperature uh whether there's a temperature difference. I know that a duck egg and a quail egg are going to be runny at 62 uh because I've done them. Uh and I know that a quail egg will still get slightly you know that creaminess that you would normally get at 63 Celsius, right? Which is weird but quail eggs cook much faster and I think they also uh can drift into overcooks much faster.
+
+[15:07] A quail egg is done in like you know under fifteen uh way under fifteen minutes. You know what I mean? It's like it's gets done quick. And quail eggs though, when you do a quail egg in a circulator, they're difficult to uh to get out the way you would get out of a chicken egg. So what I normally do is you get like one of those uh to one of those like cigar cutting things that are not for cigar they're for quail eggs and you chop the top and the bottom, not just the top to get the egg out the top and the bottom and then you can shake the egg out and you can get like you know um you know most of the eggs will come out uh properly whereas if you try to do it via cracking, uh you're gonna lose, you know, like half of your eggs.
+
+[15:48] So if you're gonna low temperature circulate a quail egg, you're gonna want to get something that can chop the top and the bottom of the um shell off. Um duck eggs I haven't had a lot of experience with. I mean I know they're still creamy at 62, but I don't know whether they'll set ex you know exactly at 64 and be creamy at 63. They're obviously gonna have to cook longer because they're um because they're bigger. Um but you know you know more interesting thing on eggs is uh and and relating to uh the proteins and basicity is uh and I I think we put this in eater last week is uh you need to add a little bit of uh if you if you're having problems peeling your eggs if you add a little bit of baking soda to the water apparently it helps and um and uh that's Harold McGee trick uh because it makes it more alkaline it makes it so the proteins in the eggs bond less strongly to the membrane in the shell when you peel it which is kind of cool.
+
+[16:39] Uh I asked uh Wiley whether they do that at the restaurant and that with the restaurant being WD fifty N and D they do but they say that peeling eggs is still a uh a pain in the butt. Um all right so uh by the way uh before I forget I said on the blog a couple of weeks ago that uh that dragon fruit is uh uh you know a gross awful uh tropical fruit and I got a couple people telling me that I was wrong and I was like well look I'm willing to be proven wrong. Well I came down here to Columbia and I had uh a fruit called pataya. Pataya is another basically word for a type of dragon fruit. The ones they get down here are yellow and lo and behold um it tastes good.
+
+[17:21] I like it. So I found a dragon fruit that I like. Also, you know Nastasha you remember how I hate pot papaya? Yeah. Yeah I hate it, right?
+
+[17:29] I mean I I I like a green papaya like a crunch papaya, but I hate myself a uh uh a ripe papaya in the States. It smells like like nothing you'd want. Like alternately hey sometimes it smells like a diaper, sometimes it smells like a vomit. You know this smell good. Do you like 'em no no I don't.
+
+[17:44] No, they're awful, right? Here they're actually good. In fact, in Columbia, right, you're not supposed to you're not supposed to walk around the streets of Columbia showing off that you have a lot of bling. This is not a bling oriented society when you're walking around on the streets, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.
+
+[17:59] Uh you know for obvious and the security here is is intense. You know what I mean? There's still 'cause they're still I guess you know worried about um I guess problems. Anyway, so uh the the local phrase is to show you how good the papayas are here compared to where they are in the States if the local phrase here is uh don't give papaya out. In other words if you show if you have this papaya out that you're giving out that the people are gonna come take it and intake more you know what I mean so it's like that papayas are so ingrained that like the the kind of national statement for like you know don't flash your bling is basically don't flash your papayas.
+
+[18:34] Cute. Yeah anyway uh okay going up I have a question from Chris about uh bloom strength of you have a collar in case you want to do that first. Oh I alright caller you're on the air. Yeah hi um my name is Jesse I I have a question about uh juice extractors. And I was wondering um for under three hundred bucks is there one that you recommend highly okay well what kind of juice?
+
+[19:05] I'm juicing vegetables and fruits. Okay but not citrus no not citrus no and not sugar cane? And not sugar cane, no. And not um wheatgrass. No, not wheatgras either.
+
+[19:22] Okay. Uh because those are those are tough. Um so the one that we typically use uh in the school and that almost every chef has, and they can be had for well under three hundred dollars, uh, is the uh champion juicer. Okay. The champion.
+
+[19:37] And the champion juicer, basically the way it works is it's got an auger and then little teeth, and it just, you know, you you push the stuff through and pulp shoots out the front and juice goes down the bottom. Um and you can even put the pulp through a second time if you want to. It can also grind peanuts and it can grind cocoa nibs to make chocolate. You know it it it's good. It's a good machine.
+
+[20:00] Um it you know, it tends to heat your juice up a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Um so if you're having a problem with your juice overheating, and and especially when I make it, I tend to force the stuff down the throat of the machine so quickly that like it tends to overheat. I have had um I have had the base of the champion, the motor, like almost catch on fire and and like uh, you know, I've ha I've melted the internal component tree of it. But that's after like, you know, like an over an hour of continuous heavy, like, you know, basically I when I juice like that, I juice as if I was going to the gym and working out.
+
+[20:37] You know what I'm saying? So it's uh it's uh you know, that's not gonna happen that much. For more money, um some people like the green star juicer, which is basically a set of gears that mashes the stuff. However, from I've never used one. People that I know that have used it say that the yield is not nearly as high with um the green star as it is with the champion.
+
+[21:01] Now, there are a bunch of other juices that I've seen um on the web and even seen kind of in person that seem to they work on different principles, right? That work uh like centrifugal, so they grind it and then and then centrifically separate it out. Um and some of these purportedly make very good juice. The problem is is that they a lot of them don't have a lot of capacity. So if you're making a little bit of juice, right, they're okay.
+
+[21:26] But if you want to make a boatload of juice, like if you're doing a party or if you have you know a lot of people coming over or whatever, then you're not going to want to sit around and and burn out a smaller juicer. You're going to want something that maybe is um a little bit less uh maybe has a little bit less um yield on extraction, maybe warms up a little bit but is kind of a a robo monster, right? Which is what the champion is. So I actually don't have a lot of information on the other kind, on the kind that is like a little bit uh slower, maybe a little bit more gentle, but can't handle a lot because I can't personally use a piece of equipment that can't pump out a you know a gallon of juice in a reasonable amount of time. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[22:05] Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Okay. So um and you know it I although I have to say you know on the o other end of the spectrum if you have a bajillion dollars if all of a sudden you win the lottery, go out and buy a neutrafaster like the professional ones that you see that look like uh that look like a uh uh a tower at an airport and have a tube coming out of 'em.
+
+[22:25] Yeah I went to a uh I never used one before because I you know I've never worked in like you know one of these places that juices for living but and by the way none of these juicers will do wheatgrass sugar cane and they're not for citrus which is why I asked you those questions. Um but you put you know you when you put an apple in a champion juicer you have to push on it to get it to come out right and that's just what it is. When you uh you know, when I put an apple into the neutrafaster thing, I felt like it was going to suck my arm down into it. That's how thirsty it was to eat these apples, you know what I mean? So I'll respect to that machine.
+
+[22:56] The other machine that some people like, it's very expensive, is the Norwalk, which is basically a press. But again, I've never used it. I don't know how concerned you are about um keep changing it versus just you want it easy to clean, can pump out a whole bunch of juice. Um, I'm more in work fairly well and pump out a boatload of juice when you need it, but not necessarily need to do that much. Exactly.
+
+[23:20] Yeah. Yeah. So I'd use a champion. Have you used it before? Um, I think I've used it once in a restaurant, yeah.
+
+[23:28] Yeah. Yeah. Most people have them. You know, um, and most people we're we're usually fairly fairly happy with them. Uh I if you know, I don't know how much more it costs to get the commercial one.
+
+[23:38] The commercial one basically uh has a stainless shaft and better bearings on the motor uh versus the home machine. Um otherwise I think they're fairly similar. And it's easy to get replacement parts for it. And uh I don't know anyone that doesn't like their champion, let me put it that way. Okay.
+
+[23:52] Well, great. All right, well, thanks a lot, cool. Good luck with it. Bye. Let's take a break.
+
+[23:57] So Nastash, you think we should go to the first break? Yeah. All right, call in all your questions to 718497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Dave. Yep.
+
+[25:08] You're back on. Hey, welcome back. You're on the air. Cooking issues coming to you live from Brooklyn and Bogota, Colombia, where the weather is always like fall. It's crazy.
+
+[25:19] It's like fall here all the time. I actually like the weather a lot. Oh. Pretty good. Yeah.
+
+[25:24] You know, you 'cause even though we're on the equator, it's it's like so high up in the mountains that it's always kind of like uh it's like basically fall weather, like early fall weather, which I enjoy. If you go to uh Medellin, which is uh you know, it's also in the mountains, but like slightly lower. They call that one eternal spring because it's like ten degrees warmer than here, so it's always springtime there. Always. Like literally nothing changes weather wise.
+
+[25:48] They have a rainy season where maybe it rains more, but like weather wise, the temperature, it's it's always the same. It's crazy, right? Cool, yeah. Then I went we went down to Cartagena, which is like on the water, and that is freaking humid. Freaking humid.
+
+[26:03] Anyway. Uh call on our questions. Still time to call on your questions too. 7184972128. That's 718 497 2128.
+
+[26:12] By the way, more on Columbia. Uh guys down here incredibly nice. Incredibly nice. Uh I should probably do a uh blog post on by the way, I haven't had blog posts. I've been internet challenged, uh uh often when I'm down here, and telephone challenge and cash challenge.
+
+[26:28] Do you know that they I came down here uh and uh my bank, Chase, uh g you know, decided that they when I asked them for replacement cards that they would give me a temporary card. You know what temporary cards don't do? Give money. They don't take money out of banks internationally. So we've been I've been like basically mooching off of my new friends here in Columbia uh you know for the last week.
+
+[26:56] Uh I don't I don't understand how it works. I don't even anyway, whatever. What we would do with a little all I'm just saying is that travelers who are going abroad, please get your financial crud straightened out before you go, or you could be a moron like Dave Arnold. That's basically the point, right? Yeah.
+
+[27:09] Anyway. So uh Chris writes in about the bloom strength of gelatin. Can you explain how to convert between different bloom strengths of sheet gelatin? I have a recipe that calls for silver strength uh at 160 bloom, but only have gold strength, 200 bloom handy. Thanks.
+
+[27:25] Okay. Uh first of all, uh bloom force, bloom is an ar is kind of uh a weird definition of the strength of gelatin. And literally what it is is you they take uh uh gelatin that's been cured, you know, for like you know, 17 hours at a very specific temperature, like 10 Celsius, right? Uh at a very specific concentration, like uh six six and two thirds, six point six six six percent, right? Uh and they push a um they push a little plunger that they make standard into it, and they figure out how much force it takes to push that plunger four millimeters into the surface of the gel, right?
+
+[28:08] And they give you that force in grams, and that's what bloom is. And by the way, most of the measures used in foods are weird, crazy lunatic things like this, where some dude in a factory was sitting around saying, hey listen, I gotta figure out how to measure this correctly. So he makes this like we like now this is the standard for all time. So you like, I don't know, he uses whatever he wants, a ball, a cone, a pen, whatever, but he makes the standard for all time. It's named after him, Bloom, and he pushes it in and he writes the stuff down.
+
+[28:34] So this is how the food industry works. So the question is how do you convert it? So you can't just simply and I uh you know other places that published you can't just simply exchange like say hey I have one that's a a 200 bloom I'm making these up to make math easier for me. I have one that's a 200 bloom and one that's a 100 bloom so I'm just gonna use twice of the 100 bloom. Right?
+
+[28:54] That doesn't make it doesn't make sense. Here's another thing. People like to use uh number of sheets of gelatin when they use sheet gelatin to kind of figure out what's going on. But the fact of the matter is is that typically you buy sheet gelatin uh in grades right platinum, silver, bronze, gold, right? Uh and the thing is is that as it goes down the line, platinum is the strongest gel, it it's has usually has the highest bloom strength.
+
+[29:17] It's usually the clearest gel that doesn't have any brown, right? Some of the lower strength gels uh have undergone some hydrolysis there can be some browning in them it's like they're not as you know not as good looking, not as clear. Anyways, the lower the strength the gel typically like uh the higher uh the higher the weight of each sheet is because they're attempting to um keep uh the gelling power per sheet similar is that makes sense but if you're gonna substitute uh a weight uh then you have to do some sort of conversion. Now uh a as you change the concentration of gelatin, right? You're not uh it doesn't scale.
+
+[29:55] So in other words, if you double the concentration, you don't get exactly twice the uh you don't get twice the strength of the gel. Typically, uh you get much more than twice the strength of the gel, right? So you you can't do a straight conversion. A very good uh uh thing to look at on the webs is something called uh gelatin summary and conversion. And it's a really useful, like four-page word document that you can download right off the thing by uh A UI.
+
+[30:23] There's uh Alb Albert Uster imports, and they're Nastash, you'll be happy to know that they're Swiss, right? And uh they provide uh the formula uh where you take uh and you multiply uh by the square root of the ratio of the bloom strength. So it doesn't it's not gonna make much sense, but I'll put it to you this way. If you have a 200 bloom strength gel, right, and you want to figure out how much to use of 140 bloom, you do 200 divided by 140, right? And then you take the square root of that.
+
+[30:53] And so if you needed uh and this is an example right off their sheet. I'm reading it off their sheet, so don't say I'm plagiarizing it, it's right there. Uh if you have 10 grams of 200 bloom gelatin, and but you you know the recipe calls for 10 grams of 200 bloom, but you want to use one that's 140 bloom, you take 10 times the square root of 200 over 140, and uh that is uh how many grams of the uh lower bloom strength gelatin you want to use. And the reason for the square root there is as I say that it's not a linear, it's not a linear thing. Um anyway, I hope that helps, and you should read that, uh read that little paper because it's kind of cool anyway.
+
+[31:30] It's got lots of kind of cool pictures, and uh it's titled gelatin summary, and that's what she is. It also gives, interestingly, stuff that you don't uh it has a bunch of actual conversions uh for known things, like how to convert uh platinum sheed weight to Knox powder weight, how to convert uh Nox powder weight to gold weight, and by the way, Nox powder, which is the one Nastasha that we use uh when we're doing uh our gelatin work is actually pretty darn good. It's got like uh it's it's between uh platinum and and gold, and actually closer to platinum, so that's pretty good, right? Yeah, that's really good. Bueno, yeah.
+
+[32:07] So Nox Gelatin, even though it's in the supermarket, turns out to be a serious uh butt kicker, right? Nice. Yeah, nice, nice. All right, so uh uh I tried coca tea, by the way. How was it?
+
+[32:22] It was fine. It's like, you know, uh it's uh yeah, uh we went to the like highest point in Bogota, which is uh Monserate, which is like you have to take up this like crazy tram up to the top and it's you know it's way up there, and they have this like little uh market over there, and uh so they sell all kinds of local Colombian products, and one of which is uh uh coca tea, which is basically just the coca leaves. And I tried it, and you know, I didn't I didn't feel uh I didn't feel anything really. It didn't, you know, didn't uh do anything to me as far as I know. And someone got me a bag of the leaves, but I'm pretty sure they're illegal to bring back to the United States.
+
+[32:58] And since I'm flying around from here to Panama and Panama to the United States with a bag loaded with knives and uh and white powders loaded in Ziploc bags, I don't think I'm gonna take the chance of actually having any coca products on me. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's smart. It's wise, right? Uh y yeah, I mean uh I I I'm not exactly sure how the law goes.
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+[33:20] I should have researched it before I before I came in, but uh I'm thinking that this is gonna have to stay with some friends in c in Columbia. There's no way I'm gonna try and bring this back on you. Can you imagine? Can you imagine like they find the coca bags and then they find like all the bags of like Xanthan gum and and uh you know, it's be crazy, crazy. Yeah.
+
+[33:38] Bad news. Horrible. Horrible idea. I mean I've had some bad ideas before, but I think that might be the most horrible of all. It's interesting.
+
+[33:45] Uh in terms of coca, you know, uh there's uh a lot of obviously controversy uh about the growing of cocoa because it's used to make cocaine, which is then shipped to the United States and causes many problems, etcetera, etcetera. But what's interesting is that we went to a museum called the Gold Museum down here, uh, and it's all about pre-Columbian gold. And this, you know, the coca as a product has been used by uh the people around here for like ten bazillion years. You know what I mean? Like a lot of the gold implements that they had way way you know, way before anyone uh showed up, uh you know, demonstrate that this is they they use this.
+
+[34:21] Not I'm not talking about refined cocaine, but like this as a um as basically a normal part of their daily life. They had you know, they would have uh pouches that they're like beautiful gold if you were rich. Most people would use just hollowed out gorge, but like gold pouches to carry the uh lime, they would burn shells of calcium hydroxide to use to activate the uh coca leaf strongest. So it's it's interesting. It's really, you know, part of the historical culture here, which makes it a little bit more difficult um to say that we should try to stop people from growing it.
+
+[34:51] It's kind of uh interesting little question. Yeah. Anyway. All right. So Brian writes in uh with uh several questions, and so we'll try to uh hit some.
+
+[35:05] I'm gonna go in reverse order. All right, Brian. Brian bought some malic acid and some citric acid at the homebrew store. Good news. I want to use them in cocktails and other stuff, such as jams, pat teta flea, uh any other acids I should get.
+
+[35:16] Any thoughts on the best applications? Well, yes, in fact, uh you can get some tartaric acid. Although if you have citric and malic, citric and malic are the two baller acids. If you have citric and mal citric acid and malic acid, uh you can do a lot, right? Malic acid is the acid that is typical in apples, right?
+
+[35:33] Apples malice. Uh, and citric acid is the acid that's typical in lemons. Now, um, and if you taste them by themselves in small quantities, like they taste like the warhead that they're that they're, you know, the apple warhead, and the other one tastes like the lemon warhead, warhead is a candy, if you you know, or the sour patches. If you uh buy tartaric acid, like that's one of the main acids in grapes, and so that provides uh a grapey note. Uh if you mix two parts of citric acid to one part malic acid, you get the acidic flavor of uh lime, which is the one that I use most.
+
+[36:09] And I use it as a corrective, right? So if you don't want to add limes, or you know, if you just want to correct the acidity of a juice slightly, um we use these acids all the time. If you jack them too much, you tend to throw the juice out of balance. Wouldn't you say so, Nastasha? Yeah.
+
+[36:24] Some other acids I would get are uh lactic acid in powder form, which can give alternately like a sour crowdy or a sausagey taste, depending on the application, because it's you know what happens when lactic acid um uh you know interacts. Uh that's a good one. Uh I use one called uh sixinic, but I don't recommend getting it. It just makes very, very authentic uh lime juice, but it's very hard to get. The lactic lactic use tiny amounts of it.
+
+[36:52] The lactic acid, the um and the malic acid, the citric acid, tartaric acid, uh are all pretty much available, I think from homebrew and wine shops. The other one obviously you should get is ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C, which is a very good uh antioxidant if you're making apple juice uh and whatnot. Um but uh there you know, there's some acids I want to get a hold of that I don't have, like Quinic, which is a strinic, astringent and is is a part of the characteristic stuff, and things like apples, um, but I don't have a source for it yet. Uh I want to try, you know, tiny quantities of other bizarre acids, but uh until I find I won't I can't talk much about them until I find a a source for them. Uh but it's good news, you're gonna love that.
+
+[37:36] We always love having that stuff around, um, just to like I say, correct acidity. If you're gonna make a soda and it has to last a long time, then you can use a malic citric blend with simple syrup to approximate lime. And then if you squeeze a little fresh lime or peel in at the end, you get a good lime back out. But I mean nothing beats the real thing, right, Nastasha? That is right.
+
+[37:57] Nothing like the real thing. Anyway, okay. Second question. Uh as Brian's speaking again. I have made my own vinegar.
+
+[38:03] It is a snap, except for the damn vinegar flies, and the vinegar is tasty as well. What exactly is the vinegar mother, and is there any culinary application for it other than for making more vinegar? That's an excellent question. Um, one of the uh uh uh Harris Radio hosts is an expert vinegar maker, but I don't know if he talks about it on the air, so I won't call them out. Uh the uh when you make vinegar, what happens is is you take uh you basically take alcohol, right?
+
+[38:30] That's you know somewhere around 10% alcohol, and you expose it to oxygen. When you expose it to oxygen, uh acetyl acetobacter um grow on acetic acid bacteria, grow on the top, uh well, they grow all throughout it, right? And they're turning the ethanol into uh into acetic acid. Okay. Now uh like I say they require oxygen to survive.
+
+[38:55] So what ends up happening is that uh they tend to form uh a bunch of what's called bacterial cellulose, right? And then they float that stuff floats to the top and forms a layer. Now the bacteria then after they use up the initial uh oxygen that's in the acetic uh in in the in the stuff that you're turning into vinegar, after they use the initial oxygen up, they tend to only exist in large quantities, actively in large quantities, in the top of the forming vinegar right where the oxygen is. And so they sit there chilling on the top of the of the vinegar uh making acetic acid from the ethanol and at the same time uh producing bacterial cellulose. And so that layer is basically uh living bacteria and bacterial cellulose.
+
+[39:47] So yes you can lift it off and use it to make more vinegar, right? Uh or uh there's a uh it's I've never heard of it done with uh with vinegar cultures before with vinegar mothers, but there's kind of a well known uh Asian Filipino dessert called uh what is it called Nata Nata de Coco, right? And what that is is it is the gel produced basically vinegar mother, right? And what they do is is instead of having it in a jar that's tall, uh, right, or a jug and where they're trying to prevent, I guess, excess um moisture loss and whatnot, they spread coconut water in uh like in like a several inch thick layer in large sheets and they use a very specific uh acetobacter, but this works with you know any any uh uh acetic acid bacteria and it grows a thick layer uh of uh bacterial cellulose on top which is the same thing as vinegar mother. There's you know this one it just happens to produce a lot more of it so it makes it a lot thicker.
+
+[40:50] So what they then do is they take uh off the uh the top layer and they soak it uh and then they I think they might even boil it and they get rid of the acetic acid flavor and they have the this basically gel produced from the thing and then they infuse it with syrups and make it sweet and stuff like that. So that's uh I believe not not that to cocoa I think but it's basically vinegar mother. So you could take the vinegar mother, soak it uh if you're gentle with it because it's probably not going to be as strong. Uh and then maybe boil it in a syrup and make a a gel out of it and you know tell us what happens compare it to uh compare it to the one from Asia. Anyway, uh that's a interesting question.
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+[41:30] The third question that Brian has is uh oh by the way he used one of my favorite terms. He's like I have uh a lot of questions and he said I I hope I'm not bogarding the radio show. Don't you I l I haven't heard bogarding in a long time. You like that one, right? Anyway.
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+[41:46] Um okay black garlic is all the rage. How is it made and can I make it at home? Alright so for those of you that uh haven't been paying attention to like hip new ingredients over the past couple of years, uh black garlic is a kind of garlic that uh is uh you know originated in Korea uh and people bring it over here and it's black, uh and what kind of brown, it's not really black, it's kind of brownish black, right? Nastash not really it's not really not black. Right.
+
+[42:14] Yeah. It's kind of like dark, dark, dark brown. Uh and it's kind of oohy, it's still in its uh in the cloves, and it's uh ooey gooey, and you spread it on things, uh or do whatever you want with it, and it's very, very sweet. Uh and it's uh has like uh sugary, like some people say like balsamic, but I don't really get I don't really get that. Anyway, but like it's it's what it is.
+
+[42:39] It tastes like what it is. Uh and it's pretty good. People like it. It also doesn't make your breath stink the way that uh regular uh garlic does. And if I have time more more on that later, well, let's do it now.
+
+[42:49] So, you know, we pressure cook garlic to do the uh same thing. And uh we're working on um we're working on trying to get some funding to get uh uh a garlic specialist to run some tests for us to verify why pressure cooked garlic doesn't make your breath stick because the stuff that's in garlic that um stuff that's in garlic that does make your breath stink and is extremely punchy and shouldn't be broken down by the temperatures of a pressure cooker, but apparently is. And uh he has some theories, but we have to run some tests, so more on that when we when we do it. But uh the way black garlic is made, if people I and by the way, uh I did some uh a little bit of research and I haven't been able to uh find anyone who definitively says what's going on, but people uh say that it's fermented and it's not fermented in the traditional sense, right? Uh because the temperatures are here are too high.
+
+[43:41] Here's how it's made. You uh you basically keep the uh the garlic uh whole. Uh some people apparently soak it and some don't beforehand. You keep it in and by the way, some people say soy sauce is in it, soy sauce is unnecessary, not needed in it, blah blah blah. Okay.
+
+[43:57] You take the garlic and you keep it above uh 140 degrees Fahrenheit above 60 degrees Celsius right and uh but it you can go all the way up right according to some of these uh sites all the way up to like eighty or ninety degrees Celsius and still have it have it age. I wouldn't do that. I would never take it uh out you know above the the softening temperature of the garlic which is going to be um you know in the 70s or 80s uh uh Celsius so you know I I would keep it down lower where people recommend like forty fifty Celsius which is in the hundred and like 140 and a little above range. Don't go any below that because if you go below that you can have bacteria growing on it, right? So they keep it hot and they keep it uh basically from drying out so it doesn't desiccate uh over time and they keep it for a long time.
+
+[44:49] So on the order of 30 days. The higher the temperature probably the the uh the less time it's gonna take. But that's how they make it. So it's done hot uh for a long time and then allowed to cool down and and and there you have it. Some people uh in a in a patent late online some people put charcoal in with it to try to absorb some of the odor odors as it's being made.
+
+[45:12] I don't know that that's truly necessary but the easiest way to do it uh is to use a dehydrator. So if you're lucky enough to have an excalibur style dehydrator then you can um so the sheet style dehydrators are tough because you don't want it to actually dehydrate. So you want to kind of like like put plastic wrap put like put the garlic in a container that's non-reactive. Put plastic wrap or whatever over that container so that it doesn't lose all of its moisture. Now it's basically a controlled humidity environment.
+
+[45:44] And then you put that into a dehydrator and you you set it at like I'm going to make up a number like 150 and you let that Fahrenheit and you let it run for like 30 days and and there you have it. And so um so that's it. So it doesn't appear to be an enzyme reaction that's going on because at those temperatures I'm pretty sure you're going to at least it maybe it initially it is, but you're going to break down uh broken down a lot of the enzymes over that period of time at those temperatures, I would guess, right? And it's not uh a fermentation in the sense that it's not bacterial or uh yeast derived. Uh and this is why in the science literature it's just referred to as aged garlic.
+
+[46:22] I think what's happening is is that a lot of the compounds in garlic are pretty unstable and if they're just held at these temperatures for very long periods of time can produce these kind of crazy things like uh like a aged garlic. Uh what do you think? Pretty interesting rightas? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[46:41] Alright so uh anyway, I was supposed to like I say be in Brooklyn I am flying out tomorrow to Panama where I'm doing a demo uh in Panama City for a bunch of cooking school people and I'm going to do an Ikime demo there maybe using some of the new IKime stuff that I learned when I was working with Dave Chang's uh on his iPad app after which I will be in Harvard next Tuesday giving a lecture to uh bright you know bushy whatever it's bush bright eyed bushy tailed college students uh about uh the wonders of science in uh in cooking with uh Harold McGee, which should be a blast. Unfortunately, that means I will not be doing a live show because it's during the actual uh cooking issues time that we'll be uh doing the lecture. So I look forward to speaking to you all in two weeks. Send us your questions, cooking issues. The following is a message from Nova and Y.
+
+[49:00] Do you dig local food? Love organic farmers. Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food system? Then sign up today to take the NOFA NY's Locavore Challenge this September. Join five thousand other New York Locavores that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system.
+
+[49:19] Learn more at www.nylocavorechallenge.com.
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+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues back from Columbia, Panama, and the Harvard, where I was lecturing last year. We're back in Bushwick today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. At 718-497-2128, still can't remember the dang number.
+
+[0:50] Anyway, today, last week was our 52nd episode. We were supposed to celebrate it, but because the fake hurricane stopped us from being together in the studio, we're celebrating our 53rd episode with a delicious bottle of wine from our friends at the Barter House. So uh anywho, uh we're gonna have that, uh, which we shouldn't be drinking because we're gonna be shooting an episode of uh no reservations, uh what's it called? No reservations required. No reservations.
+
+[1:19] I think it's just another one. With uh Anthony Bourdain later on today. Uh maybe we'll talk about it, maybe we won't. I don't know. Today's cooking issues is sponsored by Modernist Pantry.
+
+[1:29] Supplying modernist ingredients for the home cook. Modernist Pantry offers modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook, and most only cost around five bucks per unit. Unit? Yeah. Five per pat per thingamajake.
+
+[1:42] Yeah. Uh and you know what this is one of the main problems when you're buying um I'll finish I'll finish the thing. Okay. Whether you are looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue, eat glue, eat glue. You should get meat glue, by the way.
+
+[1:54] You should all have meat glue in your pantry. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. But by the way, when you buy meat glue from these guys, uh, you should remember to always store it in the freezer after you're done with it, or it's gonna go bad fairly quickly. Remember that. Store it in the freezer, tightly sealed in a ziploc in the freezer.
+
+[2:07] Um if you need something that they don't carry at Modernist Pantry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, hey guys, source, okay. If you're gonna source anything, source uh PectineX SPL. Uh I'm talking specifically to Chris Anderson in Modern Pantry Modern Pantry.
+
+[2:25] You're gonna have to order a 25 liter pail, because we're sick of selling it to people because we're that's not what we're very good at, although the school is still selling that stuff. Uh I tried to get Terra Spice to carry it and they they weren't able to. So maybe you guys can carry that, which is a fantastic enzyme that you can use for clarification, auto suppreming, uh getting the pith off of peels, making delicious French fries, etc. etc. Buy it.
+
+[2:46] Anyway, uh Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that order today, during today's show, go on there right now because I want to prove that we actually have some fans. We'll get a free sample of transglutaminase, aka meat glue, with their first order, but only while supplies last. Simply use the promo code CI, which I guess stands for cooking issues, 53, CI 53, when placing your order online at Modernist Pantry.com.
+
+[3:15] Uh, this please uh do so so that so that it proves that we're you know useful in some way, right? Okay. Um visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist ingredient needs. Uh and it is true that one of the hardest things that people uh have when they're sourcing these ingredients is purchasing them. Uh and then if they want to purchase five, six, seven hydrocolloids, even from the suppliers that uh we use for restaurant supply, they're usually buying more than you need, a lot more than you need, because you're typically only using a few grams of these things, and you're paying uh 15, 16, 17 dollars per unit of the for these things, and you don't need that much of it, so it's a real barrier to experimentation.
+
+[3:52] So, this is a really good concept where you go, you can order smaller quantities of these things that are gonna be useful to you, uh, and then you can play around with them. They they also, I think they said that they'll get bulk if you need bulk, and I'm sure their pricing is different for both. So uh go on, check them out. Cheers, modernist pantry. Nastasha full pulling the Cesare Casella and throwing some some ice cubes in her wine.
+
+[4:13] Uh what are we drinking today, Nastasha? You gonna give us a little spiel? Oh, I don't know. It's a jewels cote de Provence. Great pronunciation.
+
+[4:21] Really? No. Sweet. I'm not mean. By the Barter House.
+
+[4:28] The Barter House, our good buddies. Okay, on to oh, by the way, remember to call in your questions. We're very excited for your questions today, although we do have a lot of email questions to answer. If I can only find them, I gotta put I put them on my iPad. Okay.
+
+[4:42] Huh. Kevin writes in uh hi Dave and Nastasha. I've been working on a blog post listing ingredients commonly seen in scientific cooking, and I'm stuck on sodium hexametaphosphate, SHMP, known in the parlance as shimp. Um I know you've talked about its role as a calcium sequestrant uh for spherification before. By the way, calcium sequestrant means that basically that it has the ability to bind calcium molecules, and calcium is one of the things that causes certain gels to set.
+
+[5:10] Uh so if you're making something with uh alginate, uh, for instance, and you want to stop it from prematurely setting, we add a little bit of sodium hexametophosphate to bind up all the calcium that's available that would otherwise uh shaft your um shaft your your gel. And so that's you know, that's what a sequestering is. Anyway, uh but I've also seen many claims it can be used as an acidity regulator, an emulsifier, a humectant, a raising agent, uh sequestrant we already said, stabilizer and a thickener. I think I figured out how acidity regulation and emulsification work, but the rest are a mystery to me. My question is in two parts.
+
+[5:44] Could you shed any more light on novel uses for shimp, sodium hexametophosphate? Uh and two, can you recommend any books, sites, journals, or other resources for doing research on scientific cooking? I have access to academic journals, but I sometimes still can't find the basic details of certain things. Well, uh, I'll answer the second one first. Uh the problem uh with uh scientific journals uh is unless you know exactly what you're looking for, it can be uh very difficult to search for kind of general industrial knowledge on those journals.
+
+[6:16] So, for instance, if you're saying, hey, look, I want to look up um the production, or I want to look up you know how to do ecogemia, how to spinal cord ablation. If you know exactly what you're searching for, you can find the information. But otherwise, it's very difficult. I usually look for industrial sites. Uh like corporations usually put out lots of white papers on how their products are uh work.
+
+[6:36] For instance, um, if you want to know about methyl, the best place to go is DAO for methyl cellulose, uh, you know, the for alginates, it used to be ISP, which is which is a company now owned by FMC Biopolymer. So for these industrial applications where it's not a trade secret, where they're trying to get you to use the product, a lot of the information is available online, or if you call the company, they'll send it to you. This is the case with enzymes and hydrocolloids primarily. If you want to know how a weird industrial cooking procedure works, patent searches are often a good way to go. Uh or there are specific, if you have access to scientific journals, you might also have access to uh food processing books, which are usually on different websites within the same kind of an area.
+
+[7:14] Like for instance, Canovell has a long list of books on actual food processing. For instance, the book Frying, Improving Quality, where I learned a lot about uh oil degradation, things like that. Another good source is Egan Press, which is put out by the American Association of Serial Chemists. Good places to look for this for this sort of thing. When it comes specifically to sodium hexametophosphate, the problem with uh that is that it's usually an ins uh um not very specific, it's not one thing.
+
+[7:41] There's usually an impure bunch of uh polyphosphate salts, some of which are sodium hexametophosphate and some of which aren't. There's also uh the phosphate salts, like they react very, very differently depending on which one they are. Two really good resources uh on the internets to look up uh one is the polyphosphates, chemistry effect and importance, which you can get as a uh uh word document online. It's easy to search for, and it has a very good discussion of kind of the chemistry of what's going on uh in you know fairly layperson's terms, thank goodness. Uh and another one is search for ICL underscore meat.pdf, which specifically is how to use different kinds of polyphosphates in meat.
+
+[8:22] Now, um uh shorter chain uh phosphate salts are typically basic, whereas the longer ones, uh encyclical ones like sodium hexametophosphate are typically not basic. So, for instance, more basic polyphosphates are added to things like meat glue, a specific kind of meat glue to make it basic so that the enzymes don't react when they're when they're being uh you know when they're sitting there on your desk before you paint them on on meat. Um larger ones that they act as a sequestrant, and the way they act as an emulsifier is by uh basically solubilizing the proteins. It's the proteins that are acting as an emulsifier when you're adding something like sodium hexametophosphate to not you wouldn't add sodium hexametophosphate to meat for that, you'd add a shorter chain polyphosphate. But anywho, that's what it's basically doing.
+
+[9:03] The protein itself is the emulsifier, and the polyphosphates are basically making that protein more uh available. Uh they can act as buffers in different kinds of uh regimes depending on which one you use. They're very, very versatile, but the actual usage of them are very specific, almost the way they are with hydrocolloids. You have to know exactly why you're using it, which one you're using. So I recommend you look at those two sources and you'll get a much better handle for what's going on.
+
+[9:26] What do you think, Sus? Yes. Yes. Okay, uh, we got a call uh calling from Michael. Michael wants to know about potatoes and uh meat glue.
+
+[9:36] Two separate questions. I will do the second question first. Uh I'd like to know if I can use transglutaminase to glue my drunk and passed out friend's hand to his face. If I wet his hand and apply it to his face and he didn't move until morning, would it bond? Also, if it did work successfully, would I be putting him in any serious medical danger by doing this?
+
+[9:53] What if I just glue his hand to his torso? Okay. Uh I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go ahead and recommend that you glue uh the hand to the face, but uh let's take it from a theoretical standpoint. One of the problems with gluing your hand to your face is that uh the like your epidermis is pretty much kind of a dead kind of a protein, so I don't know how much is going to be available for gluing. That said, you know, I can easily glue chicken skin.
+
+[10:19] I know that works, you know. Uh so it probably would work to an extent. I think you'd get a much, much, much, much, much better bond if you sanded his hand first to make it kind of rough. Like kind of like you like if you skinned your knee, that kind of thing, like if you fell off of a bike and you hit your hand on gravel, that kind of a thing. And then did a similar thing to his forehead.
+
+[10:38] I think you'd get a much better bond. Not recommending this. Please don't do this. Um you'd also need to keep it very immobile. Uh it wouldn't actually take four hours because you remember human body temperature is around 98 degrees.
+
+[10:51] So it probably the enzyme would set fairly quickly. I'm guessing fairly quickly. Um now the strength of the glue uh with with the transglutaminase is it's not on the order of making a whole muscle again. So if you use transglutaminase, you know that it's much more like two pieces of uh muscle that are separated by a membrane or the the junction between two different muscles. So that's the kind of level of bonding you're gonna get.
+
+[11:14] Um so you could pull it apart, but uh this would cause probably nasty disfiguration and scarring. Uh so I'm gonna go ahead and not recommend it. But if he wants to, he can go to modernistpantry.com. Yeah, yeah, yes. But if you want a sample of meat glue to not test on your friend, I recommend that you go to the Monitor's pantry and enter the code of CI, what was it, 53?
+
+[11:36] CI 53, purchase some meat glue, and go ahead and do not try this on your friend. And and this is not look, uh many times I'll like nod, nod, wink, wink, don't try. Please don't actually try this, right? I mean, like Nastasha, look at my face. I'm serious this time.
+
+[11:49] Yeah, don't try it. I'll tell you, I can't tell you when I'm not serious, but I am serious this time. Don't try this. Now we're gonna try the delicious butterfly. We need a Dave's serious sound effect.
+
+[11:57] Yeah, but yeah, what like what could it be like maybe the Willem Scream. Yeah, yeah, right. For those of you that don't know, there's a scream called like the Willem Scream that is in every movie, and Spielberg's used it like eight billion times. So and every time I hear it, I'm like, awesome! So it's used uh, I guess one of the more famous usages is in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
+
+[12:16] When they're walking across the bridge and uh Indiana Jones cuts the bridge and the guy falls down into where the alligators or crocodiles are eating people alive. That's that's a use of the screen. But it's if it once you know the screen, that particular scream, maybe Jack can find it before the end of the uh episode, and you can you can you can hear it. Yeah, I'll just fill my pipe. I like that he already has it.
+
+[12:37] The original use. Alright, now you guys know it. You guys know it now, that scream? It's in every movie. That's green.
+
+[12:46] That's green. Uh yeah, okay. Yes, it's in every scream. Oh yeah, yeah, every scream. Once you hear that, it's not like it's not that's the not the natural human scream, it's just the Wilhelm scream that's being used in every movie.
+
+[12:59] Weird. And the wine is delicious. Okay. Uh so second question on potatoes. Uh by the way, Michael is a recent FCI grad.
+
+[13:10] That's good. Um, and he's uh developing shack is playing the Wilhelm screen. No, I just played. Oh, you did it? Oh, come on.
+
+[13:16] Uh we're off the wheel. All right. She see this is what Nastasha does during the show. Instead of paying attention to what we're doing and try to help me get ingredients, she's like, I'll research the screen. She's great with sponsors, though.
+
+[13:26] Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, the sponsors like sponsors like anyone other than me. Anyway. Uh okay.
+
+[13:32] When my school uh instructor, chef instructor, so one of ours at the FCI, told me that we shouldn't use potatoes that are sprouting because once they sprout, they release poison into the potato. I'd like to know what's going on there. Would the potatoes be fine if I cut off the sprouts and a large portion of the potato from where the sprout came? And are there any ways I can cook the tainted potatoes to make them safer? I'm the family chef at the executive dining room where I work, and so I get quite a few sprouting potatoes to work with.
+
+[13:55] Okay, here's the dealie. Potatoes, uh, when they're exposed to light or or otherwise after a certain length of time, uh go out of dormancy. When they go out of dormancy, they start to sprout. They also start to turn green. Uh, and that's a sign of when that this uh chemical called solanine is developing.
+
+[14:14] So solanine is a very, very bitter and also poisonous chemical. There are actually have been some deaths attributed to solanine ingestion from uh potatoes, typically during famine times. Um the good news about uh solanine is it's extremely bitter. So if your potatoes taste bitter, don't eat them, right? Um also the the greening, when you see potatoes that are stored improperly in supermarkets, I see it all the time.
+
+[14:39] The skin's turning green. The green is not actually the solanine forming, it's chlorophyll that's forming in the potato. But uh chlorophyll and uh solanine develop at roughly the same time. So greening in a potato is indication that there's also a high solanine content in the potato. Sprouts have a large, large potato sprouts, which you should never eat, have a large amount of solanine in them.
+
+[15:01] So in a potato that's otherwise okay, that doesn't show like a lot of greening, uh, you can cut out the sprout areas because the here's the order. Sprouts have the most solanine, the skin area that's turned green has the second most solanine, and uh the inside of the potato has the least amount of solanine. That said, the worse off a potato gets in terms of once it's gone out of dormancy or started to sprout, uh the more solanine is going to be found throughout. So you want to peel the heck out of a potato that has uh that in it, and you want to cut out uh a lot of the sprouty areas, right? Um now uh the question is can you get rid of it by cooking?
+
+[15:40] You're not gonna get rid of it by boiling or by steaming. If you deep fry uh potatoes, you can extract some of it because I believe it's oil soluble. The problem is it doesn't go away, it just gets extracted into the oil. So what you're doing is uh spreading the poison out over time. So the more you use the oil, the more you're spreading the uh the po the poison out.
+
+[15:59] Uh also again, never eat potato foliage. So here's this. I was uh I was researching this. This is from the article Solanine Glycoalkaloids in potatoes in food uh magazine Food and Chemical Toxicology 1990. Uh the highest total um content of solanine in the potato plant are in the foliage, the blossoms, and the sprouts, followed by the peel and the tuber flesh.
+
+[16:20] Um within the tuber, the concentrations are greatest in the layer under the peel and in the eyes. Another interesting fact about solanine is that it's very small amounts of it are considered necessary to the taste of it. So without it, the potato wouldn't taste like a potato, but uh large amounts of it uh not only will kill you, but will add a distinctly bitter taste followed by a longer lasting burning sensation in the throat. Break? Oh, all right.
+
+[16:44] So uh there it is with your potatoes, and we're gonna go into our first commercial break. Cooking issues. Morning slaving for bread. So that every mouth can be fed. Means rise.
+
+[17:06] Get stuff in the morning, flaving the buttons. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And no, I didn't memorize it.
+
+[18:12] Nastasha wrote down the number during the break. Listen, the Israelites, great tune. I'm not used to that version. Have you ever heard that? I've never heard that version before, but I like it.
+
+[18:20] It's more rock and I'm used to the uh, what is it? Desmond Desmond Decker? Uh, yeah, I'm used to that, but uh Nastasha picked that because if I have time about it later on today, we'll talk about it. Uh uh we're doing a shoot today for the Bourdain thing I mentioned, but the subject of the shoot is they wanted us to do a Christmas feast, and I was an ancient Christmas feast. Uh so it's not a technical technological problem, it's more of my history interest problem.
+
+[18:44] And I was like, well, you know, Christmas wasn't a big feast until kind of recently, you know, it's kind of like a Victorian area thing when we started having these giant Christmas feasts, you know, usually not really a very religious holiday. Easter is the more important one, you know what I'm saying? You should tell them about your Jersey Bible sometime. Oh, yeah, well, I want to I want to do a spoken uh I want to do a spoken word Bible completely in Jersey. Anyway, um it's one of my later life goals after I retire from anything else, from everything else that I've done.
+
+[19:09] Okay, so uh, like that's ever gonna happen. Okay, so um, so I said, listen, uh, a much more interesting problem is what might they have been eating eating uh around Jesus' actual birthday. Right? That was the thing. And so I've been researching um recently uh food uh that the Israelites would be eating uh basically throughout the history of Palestine, but more specifically trying to figure out what would be going on in the Roman period uh right around the time of the birth of Christ.
+
+[19:37] And so if I have time, we'll talk about some of that stuff uh later on in the program. Okay. Now, la I think it was last week. By the way, I'll tell you some stories about Panama real quick. Panama.
+
+[19:49] Uh since I haven't spoken to you guys since I've been from Panama or the Harvard where I was uh teaching uh late last week. Um Panama is interesting. Uh but as far as a food person, I'll tell you two quick quick things about Panama. Uh one, if you go to the fruit market at Panama, like bring some sort of moist towelette, because it's not super clean. I'm not saying anything negative about it, right?
+
+[20:11] I know, you know, but check this out. I purchased a sack, a sack of 100 fresh mango steeds, right? Fresh mango steens uh for $17. All right. Now that is an absurdly low price.
+
+[20:28] And uh sat up on the roof, a bunch of us sat up on the roof, uh, including, by the way, someone who should be an expert in uh mango steens, Andy Ricker, famous uh you know, chef in Portland area who does amazing work with Thai food. Well, he and it's the first time I met him actually in Panama, great guy. Uh we were hanging out. Uh, and uh amazing, amazing. So he said they were very good.
+
+[20:50] I mean, they were the best that I've ever had, and so he said they were good too, and he's had them a lot in Southeast Asia, so he should know what's up. 100 mangastines, 17 bucks. I later heard on from a local that I got ripped off that he can get them for fifteen dollars a sack. So, so you know, I got ripped off by two bucks. Here's another one for you.
+
+[21:06] I saw a pickup truck, a pickup truck full of Rambutans, and they were basically free. The Rambutans were basically free. Rambo, what's a Rambutan? It's kind of like a lychee, but it's kind of furry and red. Do you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[21:14] Furry looking in red. They call them Mamonchino, not like Chinese mammon instead of Mamanchillo, which is basically their word for Spanish lime or gneps. Anyway, which are also delicious and lychee like. Okay. So those are two.
+
+[21:31] Oh, here's the other story from Panama. Panama comes from a word that means many fish, and they got fish all up and down the block because they're they're bordered by two oceans that are only an hour apart. Here's the sad part for you. This is where Panama really needs to break out the shine. Their uh mechanism for selling fish at the fish market.
+
+[21:48] I visited the Panama City fish market is kind of abysmal. The lobsters, the spiny lobsters, which are flown in from the Caribbean, only are trucked in from the Caribbean only an hour away from the market, are already all dead. All of the local crabs that they call king crabs, but they're different from our king crabs, which look great, and everyone says they're delicious, all dead. Like the fish is kind of being stored in a hor horrible condition. So like they have an amazing natural resource there, but um the way it gets to market, it gets kind of shafted.
+
+[22:15] So I mean, one thing I'd like to see in Panama is for them to for chefs to basically say, hey, look, let's spend a couple of extra bucks and pay fish fishermen an extra couple of bucks to try and get the fish in top quality to the market. It'd be better for the people that are fishing, and it'd be better for the chefs, and it would definitely do a lot to help um high end food, which I think they're working a lot on on food on food there now. I think it's becoming more popular. Anyway, enough on Panama for now. Jason had an egg question, which I know, yeah, you answered.
+
+[22:45] I answered part of it, and then I said we're gonna research more. Okay. So you had a question about uh different kinds of eggs, and I didn't have the chance because I had only one hour of internet time for like $8,000 when I was in Colombia to look stuff up, uh, about the different kinds of eggs and whether they're whether they're different. Um and in my research this morning I found a horrifying but kind of like couldn't look away article, which has nothing to do with eggs. It's called interspecific, which I think they mean interspecies, interspecific duck, chicken uh chimera, uh avian uh if it's from avian biological research in 2011.
+
+[23:18] These guys took quails, ducks, and chickens, and made like ch like ch quucks, like quail chickens, quail ducks, like chuck, chick chucks, like mixtures where they took they took the the they injected duck uh like duck d DNA into like a quail egg or quail and they have pictures of these kind of insane uh chimerical like uh bird creations. So if you want to see some crazy freaking birds, go look up that article. But anyway. Um but uh I looked up and there is in fact a big difference. It took me a while to find it, but there is uh a difference in the proteins that are available in different eggs.
+
+[24:00] Uh no one I think has done the study of how it uh affects cooking yet, because I wasn't able to find that. But the kind of holy grail of articles on this subject is from 2005. Uh uh Martha Miguel uh has the article called Comparative Study of Egg White Proteins from Different Species by chromatographic and electrophoretic methods. Uh and they tested hen, quail, duck, pheasant, and ostrich. And they showed that uh they all have uh the protein content in them ranges from 71 to 82 percent.
+
+[24:28] Um ostrich uh having actually the lowest protein concentration, uh, which is lower than 71%, and the highest is in quail and duck. Uh but then they go on to talk about the various differences, but they don't really say how it affects cooking. So I can't really go into it there. But if you want to look at the specific protein differences between them, look up that study, the comparative study of egg white proteins from different species by chromatographic and electrophretic methods. Yeah?
+
+[24:44] Mm-hmm. Ganoog? Mm-hmm. Done? All right.
+
+[24:54] Okay. Uh Colin writes in, Colin, longtime listener uh and writer in of things. Uh I just snagged a rotor stator homogenizer off of eBay for a song. Uh yes, and after bleaching out the prions, which by the way, prions, uh, so a rotor stator homogenizer, have we talked about this on the show? I feel like you did.
+
+[25:12] Yeah. You did. A little bit? Anyway. Uh basically what it is is uh imagine uh a blender when you're s when you're blending something, right?
+
+[25:20] The blades hitting the uh hitting the product are what breaks apart your uh your part your food. So how small a particle that you can make is basically dependent on how fast the blade uh hits a particle or the relative speed between a particle and the blade hitting it, right? So obviously faster blenders uh with faster tip speeds make for smaller particles. But the stuff moves around in a blender, right? So you're not getting because the particles are moving and because they can move out of the way of the blades, you're limited in kind of how much energy you can smash into it and how small a particle you can make.
+
+[25:54] In a rotor stator homogenizer, right, it's the equivalent of uh putting the particle up against a wall and then because it's got a stationary part, and then the other the other part that's the so the stator is standing still, the rotor is spinning, bam, goes right next to it, and there's such a small clearance that it just obliterates the particles. So if you if you're gonna turn it into a fighting analogy, it's the difference between punching someone in the face and putting their head on the curb and stomping on it. In terms of the amount of what? I'm trying to give someone an analogy that they can like quickly understand in terms of force involved. And so that's the kind of force difference that we're talking about uh in a wreck in a rotor stator homogenizer versus a standard uh blender.
+
+[26:29] Now uh oh, I didn't finish this question. Uh okay, so he bought one of these suckers uh and he set to work creating an aeoli with a stiff whippy texture of uh egg white of egg emulsified iolis, but using only gall uh garlic, olive oil, and salt. Uh it's always proved impossible with a blender, mortar, and pestle. It just turns to soupy goo, which he doesn't enjoy. I like soupy goose sometimes.
+
+[26:52] You like a soupy goo? Mm-hmm. Yeah, Nastasha likes a soupy goo. Unlike biscuits, which I someone commented on, but I gotta find it. Okay.
+
+[26:58] Um Did we ever follow up with the biscuits? Oh, Nastasha, in fact, did not like the biscuits even here. I had two different styles of biscuits here, right? Or no, they made one style for me here, and they were quite good. They were a good biscuit.
+
+[27:11] They're they're inner I would call I would call uh Roberta's biscuits intermediate flaky, right? Would you call it with that? Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, intermediate flaky. Roberta's by the way, have we talked about their review on the New York Times?
+
+[27:23] No. Roberta got a stellar two-star review that basically said the food deserves uh three stars, but it's kind of like a homey atmosphere because of all the hipsters. So they got like a two-star review. Is that pretty accurate, Jack? They said the uh tasting menu deserved three stars, the regular menu is two stars, and the pizza and beer was one, so that's six by my count.
+
+[27:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, one star, by the way, it doesn't mean that the pizza is bad, it just means it's like kind of it's pe it's pizza, it's delicious pizza, it's good pizza. It's not trying to downrate the pizza, right? So, anyway, very good review. And uh I don't think we said it, but congratulations.
+
+[27:55] We're gonna chink our glasses here. Congrat congratulations to uh Robert's and the whole team here. Uh well, I've been talking so much, I can't drink, I can only drink during the break. There, I just drank on air. Are you happy?
+
+[28:06] Okay. Oh, Bourdain's gonna love us. Okay. Um see you made me forget what the heck I was talking about. I was reading Colin's question.
+
+[28:14] Um, so he bought this rotor stator homogenizer and he's making some ioli with it. The problem was, because I gotta find his his thing here on my iPad. The problem with it was it turned green. Um and I believe we've talked about garlic uh turning green green before. Harold McGee uh wrote uh an article on it, and basically what happens is is that if you slice garlic, it's very rarely gonna turn green, or whole garlic will turn very rarely turn green unless it's cooked under very low temperatures or pickled in very specific things.
+
+[28:42] But when you puree it um as in a and a rotor stator homogenizer is gonna puree the heck out of it, right? There's an enzymatic process that goes on uh whereby you create these c uh colorless precursors that then over time or under certain cooking regimes or in certain uh pH regimes, it's acidic, go uh green. And is there any in he wants to know what causes it to go green? I just said so. Uh and uh I you know, and there's there's an article I forgot to write it down, but if you go on the on the uh on the internet, you can look up uh the the article on it.
+
+[29:16] Uh most of the research came out in the early 2000s on uh what was going on, and it's it's basically a three like a two or three-step process, enzymes and then those things interconverting later. Uh the question is is there a way to prevent this color change other than by cooking? Uh you well, no, because he wants to maintain like the flavor, he wants to retain Colin wants to retain the flavor of a fresh uncooked garlic, but he wants uh it to not turn green. Yeah, I don't think it's gonna happen. Here's what I suggest.
+
+[29:42] Uh especially because with a rotor stator, you're making such fine particle size that you're really just getting all of that stuff together. So if if ever there was a way to make something turn green, like that's the that's the way to do it. Um I don't think there's a way to to to do it, to change it. Maybe if you put it maybe extremely basic, because if acidic conditions help it, maybe basic conditions stop it. But uh again, I'm just talking right out of my uh nether regions here.
+
+[30:07] I have no idea. I have no idea. Uh I would I would do this. I would say add another flavor, let's say a green herb, blanch the green herb so it's not gonna turn brown, and then like if it has some parsley in it, then it's supposed to be green, then no one's gonna balk, right? Right.
+
+[30:23] Right? Right. Right? Okay. Uh uh I'll try and think more about that, and I'll talk to McGee because McGee, who wrote the article on it in the New York Times, is um, you know, he you know he knows a lot about that.
+
+[30:34] He's probably thought about it more than I have. The other question Colin had was uh, what is it in garlic that acts as an emulsifier? I did a quick search on this and wasn't able to find anything that specifically acts as an emulsifier. However, uh garlics do have a category of compound in them called saponins. And saponins are uh they're plant-based materials that have all kinds of different effects, but that one of them is that they're uh surfactants and they can act as emulsif emultifiers.
+
+[31:00] They're they're basically they have both a hydrophobic and a hydrophilic component on them, so they can emulsify things. So this is a straight up guess. Oh, here's here's uh here's crapopedia's definition. Uh saponins, glycosides, widely distributed in the plant kingdom, include a diverse group of components characterized by their structure containing a steroidal or uh triterpenoid uh a glycone in one or more sugar chains. Thank you, Wikipedia.
+
+[31:22] Uh anyway, uh they're in garlic and uh they can cause foaming and uh emulsification. So I'm gonna go ahead and make the straight-up guess that that is uh what's causing it. Colin also wants to know: is there any other uh good uses for the rotor state or homogenizer? Because Nathan Miravold says it's one of his favorite things that he uh has in the kitchen. Okay.
+
+[31:43] All right. Here's some things. Uh and he he calls out our uh our oyster feeding thing that uh I did back on the blog years and years ago. The oyster feeding thing is oysters die if or they their their gills clog up and they die if you try to feed them particle sizes much larger than about 10 microns, right, in size. And a vita prep blender can only really get down to about uh 20 microns or a little greater than 20 microns in size.
+
+[32:06] And so uh if you just use a blender, uh you're gonna choke out the uh the oysters if you're making something like a like a juice or something. So I basically put uh put all the juice through a rotor stator homogenizer to get the particle size small enough so I wouldn't choke out the oysters, right? Uh another use is is that the finer you emulsify something the the whiter it's gonna get and also the more stable it's gonna be. So you can use a rotor stator homogenizer to uh make a category of things that I guess Mirvold, and it makes sense because I you know I've made these things before too, called milks, where you take a small amount of fat and you'll emulsify it into a liquid in kind of the ratios that you would have in milk. So roughly like four percent fat, let's say, into uh uh into a broth, but you can do it with something like duck stock and duck fat to make duck milk, right?
+
+[32:51] That's another application for the rotor stator homogenizer. Anytime you have something that's going to uh settle out over time, you're gonna be able to make a more stable emulsion using a rotor stator homogenizer. That said, uh you can stabilize stuff with emulsifiers that we use every day, like the Arabic Xanthan mixture that we use for everything. You can stabilize pretty dang well without without using hardly anything better than a stick blender, you know, uh an immersion blender. But the flavor is gonna change somewhat based on the uh ultimate particle size.
+
+[33:19] And I believe we talked about this when Miravold was on the show a couple weeks ago, right? A little bit, because Mirvold does does like that. Um I have not done too much cool business. What did I bust that out for recently? I had to bust it out what the heck were we doing?
+
+[33:34] Oh, oh. So Tony Kanoyara, one of our good friends, uh, the uh proprietor of 69 Colbrook Row, our favorite bar in London, uses a rotor stator homogenizer to homogenize lime juice and says that it improves the flavor because he's keeping the particles in there. Also uh improves supposedly it's emulsifying ability, right? Because you're keeping all the particles in uh all the stuff in there instead of straining it out. Uh also increases his yield because he's not getting rid of that stuff that he's strained out.
+
+[34:02] Nastasha and I did some triangle tests at the Pegu Club. I haven't written it up on the blog yet. We weren't a triangle test, is when we make three things, two of which are the same and one of which are different, and we you know do the old Sesame Street, one of these kids is doing his own thing, and you try to figure out which one is different. It's a triangle test. I haven't written about it, even though we did it months ago.
+
+[34:20] Just come to jerk, I just haven't had time to write it up yet. But um we weren't able in triangle tests to distinguish them, although I'm a little bit dubious of the straight triangle test because I didn't t tell people what they were looking for, like what kind of different flavors and nuances they might be looking for, but it it might make a difference in the lime juice itself, but it's hard to tell in the drink whether that helps. But you can experiment with doing rotor stator on juices to put the pulp in and make them a little bit um a little bit, you know, different. So you can give that a try. Uh okay.
+
+[34:53] Michael Natkin writes in from Herbivoracious, which is his blog, and he says, Hey Nastasha, because he doesn't like me, so he doesn't ask me, he just wants to talk to you. Uh hey Nastasha, I've been working on how to make the most Umami packed vegetable broth possible, using a lot of ideas from both cooking issues and modernist cuisine. Uh, would you would you pass this link on to Dave? I'd love to hear any comments or suggestions he has, either by email or on the air. Well, here you are on the air.
+
+[35:16] Okay. So uh he writes uh in his blog, I looked up some stuff. Uh I'll just mention some of them. So he quotes this thing, and I've heard it before, of Heston Blumenthal saying that there's some research that Star Anis, when cooked with sulfur compounds present in onions and other alliums, released a host of new flavor chemicals that enhance umami flavors. Alright, I've heard this a couple of times, Michael.
+
+[35:35] I've not seen the research. I would love for someone to send me in the research because I wasn't able to find it and I don't know about it, although I have heard it. So please uh please send that in. So Michael further writes, uh, because he wants me to comment on it on his recipe here. Uh the vegetarian ingredients, this is Michael writing, uh, best known for high concentration of glutamates or tomatoes, dried shiitake mushrooms, marmeat, combu seaweed, and parmesan cheese.
+
+[35:58] He included the first four but omitted the parmesan because he wants to keep it vegan, uh, you know, because you know that way it's more all purpose. You know what I mean? More all purpose vegan. Uh the challenge was to find a balance for these ingredients that wouldn't allow anyone to dominate. I didn't want to taste it and say, wow, nice mushroom broth or mmm dashi.
+
+[36:13] Now, this is a huge problem, actually. Because anytime you boost uh glutamate levels to a very high level, uh, or glutamate IMP levels to a high level, you get uh a dashi like flavor. So Nastasha and I were tasting the foods of a major uh food manufacturer who was trying to re decrease the amount of sodium that they were using in their products. And the way that they uh increased uh the the palatability of these things, but at the same time decreasing the sodium, was to add potassium uh monophosphate. Uh sorry, uh potassium uh glutamate to it, right?
+
+[36:46] Uh and instead of uh instead of uh sodium uh MSG, monosodium glutamate, you add monopotassium glutamate, and you aren't adding the sodium, but you're adding the glutamate, which is the thing that's increasing the umami, right? So you can make stuff that people think is okay, even though it has less salt in it. I have two problems with this. One, salt, there's no problem with it, unless you are a very specific person that has hypertensive as a result of salt, you can have salt. Our great grandpappies and grandmammies ate so much salt that it would put us to shame because they had to preserve so many more foods than we had to because they didn't have refrigeration, right?
+
+[37:18] I have done detailed reading of as much salt literature as possible on the on the supposed deleterious effects of salt on our health. And as far as I can tell by my careful, careful, careful reading of it, they are bunk, right? They are crap. So like I I and I've had discussions with this with many scientists, and I have yet to find someone uh who has been able, and and I'm not saying I'm not a scientist, I'm just reading the stuff that's there, and by through careful reading of it, you can see that most of this information is complete bunk. Um but hey, call me and call me out on it.
+
+[37:52] Tell me I'm a jerk, but uh I'm pretty sure that uh stand okay as far as the literature is concerned. I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm saying with the literature what the literature is, and most of it's crap. Okay, so uh uh don't reduce the salt. But the other problem is that um when they do that, when they reduce the sodium and increase basically the umami by jacking up uh glutamate levels, everything tastes like dashi. So you'll have a fettuccine alfredo that tastes like dashi.
+
+[38:18] Now it's not necessarily bad. I mean, I love dashi, right? But uh, you know, I wouldn't uh you know, I don't want my fettuccine alfredo to taste like dashi, do you? No. And and and the other problem with this kind of technology, this technique of of uh reducing salt and increasing glutamate levels and things, is that everything just tastes the freaking same.
+
+[38:37] It all tastes the freaking same, like some sort of weird dashi. It's just a huge I hope, I sincerely hope that people get off this kick of trying to reduce uh salt across the board and just focus on how things taste. The reason they don't is because there's a bunch of wingdings out there who not only they think that you that people add salt to processed foods to somehow make them, I don't know, more addictive or to preserve them. People add salt to processed foods because salt makes the stuff taste better. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:08] And what happens when you when someone doesn't add enough salt to a food and you eat it, you dump freaking salt on it anyway. You know what I mean? Um I'm not gonna get into like the the thing is cooking issues position, insofar as cooking issues position is Dave Arnold's position, which I guess it is. Uh you salt to make the stuff taste good. There are situations where we salt for safety, like when we're preserving meats or or other reasons, but uh you know, when you're trying to get a bind and a sausage, salt is adding a functional thing, or salt and bread is not only taste, it's also but um you salt to make stuff taste good.
+
+[39:43] So if you don't like the tasted salt, go ahead and don't salt it. But if you like the taste, which means that you're almost all of us, salt in normal in normal amounts. Okay. Um so yes, you Michael, you do not want to make a broth that tastes uh like dashi unless you're shooting for a dashi. Okay, so his method is using a pressure cooker because uh a lot of us advocate pressure cooked stocks.
+
+[40:03] Uh so he put he uh takes a pressure cooker uh and he cooks the stuff um, including the onions and the combu and all of the other ingredients. Now I'm gonna say this. Here's my here's my uh critique of of the recipe uh insofar as it stands, uh, because he's pressure cooking everything. One, the flavor of onions is gonna be increased in sweetness but decreased in uh onion flavor by pressure cooking. So if you really want to onion up the thing and have more of a traditional onion taste, I would saute uh some onions while you're pressure cooking.
+
+[40:35] I would pressure cook the onions as well because that's delicious. But I would saute some of the onions and I would put them into the um I would put them into the broth after you pressure cook it for a couple of minutes to let some of the fresher onion flavor marry just to increase or radically increase the amount of onion that you add to your broth so it has more of a more of a direct onion profile. The second thing is um I'd be a little cautious in pressure cooking the combu. If you like the flavor of the combu pressure cooked, go ahead. I haven't done a lot of research on pressure cooking combo.
+
+[41:04] But uh combu in general, uh they tend not to like it boiled, so I would do a pre-steep of the combu in kind of uh I would do 60, uh 60 to 70 degrees Celsius water, and then remove the combu before going on to the pressure cook step. Uh I haven't, you know, done a lot of you know experiments on pressure cooking combu, but in general, that's been my experience that the higher cooked combu is, the less I like the flavor of it. Um, although I haven't done it in conjunction with all of those other ingredients, so I I don't know. I don't know exactly how it works. But anyway, those are my basic critiques on the stock.
+
+[41:38] Alright, so Nastash is telling me that we are running out of time, but I have one more question that I will get to, but I'm unfortunately gonna have to do it very quickly. Curtis writes in on ramen. I've recently been on the hunt. Good afternoon, Dave. Uh I've been uh on the hunt for recipes and tips for making Japanese ramen from scratch, both noodles and broth.
+
+[41:54] I'm having trouble finding English language resources for both the noodle and the broth, but the noodles are a bigger problem. There isn't much out there showing how the noodles are made. I've heard you can hand pull ramen noodles or you can send them through a pasta machine or even slice them with the night knife. Yet I've also heard that the dough is very dry and difficult to come together. How could you hand pull a dough of this consistency?
+
+[42:11] I also know the noodles require a product called Kansui or a mixture of potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate mixture. Is there any way to make this cant sue uh as it's difficult to find? Okay, you can get cansway or potassium carbonate bicarbonate at most Asian grocery stores if they're larger stocked, right? Because they have this stuff. It's basically just a base.
+
+[42:28] If you don't have that, you can use uh baking soda or you can bake out baking soda in the oven to make sodium carbonate, which McGee talks about. Uh and the base in um in it with does two things. One, it makes the noodles yellow. So you should search for yellow alkaline noodles, Y-A-N, on the web, and it'll give you a lot of information and resources on cansway and how it's used. Other than just turning the noodles yellow, it also uh makes the gluten stronger uh because in basic conditions gluten is stronger, and in acidic conditions, gluten is weaker.
+
+[42:59] This is why sourdough breads are slack, right? And uh and the yellow alkaline noodles are very toothy and have a lot of bite because you're shifting the pH. So there's two main functions. It increases the bite of the noodle by increasing the pH, and it also turns them yellow uh by the way it affects uh wheat protein. Certain wheats turn more yellow than others.
+
+[43:17] So those are the two main functions of can sue. You can substitute any base you want. They do add base to hand pulled noodles a little bit, and I don't know why. The whole way, and I've had this argument with many people, including Dave Chang, who was interested in doing hand-pulled noodles uh at the same time who's interested in doing ramen. Uh, hand-pulled noodles are all about kneading for such a long time that you obliterate the gluten.
+
+[43:37] You obliterate its ability to uh basically be snappy because you need it to pull without snapping. Gluten, you pull it and it forms that sheet, that window, but it does have a bit of a short texture, it'll pull apart. So uh I don't know why you would uh I don't know why the addition of cansway is written in all the recipes. It must have something where you develop the gluten more quickly with the cansway, and then it breaks apart when you hand pull them. But as far as I can tell, and someone call me in and tell me I'm a jerk, but uh can sway um ramen is not a hand pulled uh situation.
+
+[44:09] Hand pulled noodles don't have the bite of a ramen noodle. Hand pulled noodles, I'm not gonna go so far as to say they're mushy, but they're definitely don't have the same tooth that a uh cansway uh you know yellow alkaline noodle is gonna have, which is all about the tooth and the bite. Now, as for ramen, the way it's typically made industrially is it's extruded through dyes into uh thin strips, it's then steamed, right? Uh and after it's steamed, it's fried. So the main characteristics of a of a noodle, no matter what shape you make them, ramen, you could make them in a pasta machine if you want them, or hand cut them.
+
+[44:41] If you want to know how to be a really baller hand cutter of noodles, go to a different technology, soba. Uh and when you're hand cutting noodles in soba, the whole trick with cutting soba, other than buying the really expensive, awesome soba knife, which looks insane, like an executioner's it looks like an executioner's ax axe with instead of a handle, you hold it at the top, is uh they put a board on top of the noodles exactly flat. You stick the knife down, and you never the the blade never leaves contact with the board. You angle the blade ever so slightly, which pushes the board over exactly one noodle length, and then with a width rather, and without removing the knife from the board, you pull up the blade, put it perpendicular and slice down and keep going. That's how you slice butt-kicking hand hand butt kicking hand uh cut soba noodles.
+
+[45:23] You could do the same with a yellow alkaline noodle, but I don't think it's very traditional. You could also put it through a pasta machine. Um but the key thing is steam, then fry to finish the dehydration out, and there you have ramen. Uh uh, if you need more information or if you want a specific thing, I can look more into it for you, but that's the way she goes. And this has been the fifty third episode of Cooking Issues.
+
+[45:56] Oh, you didn't score. This is a message from Fork and Anchor. Aaron Fitzpatrick, the host of our wine program, Unfiltered, is looking for help on Kickstarter to open Fork and Anchor, a general store inspired by two food-loving ladies with an equal affection for urban life, the sea, and the agricultural paradise of Long Island's North Fork. The store is situated in a growing community of farmers and winemakers and will become a meeting place offering prepared foods, a variety of sun-dries, and a selection of homespun products, many of which will have their origins in New York State. Your backing will help them fulfill their dream of fostering relationships with the community and making the local food system accessible on a broader scale.
+
+[46:39] Search Kickstarter.com for Fork and Anchor and donate today.
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+[0:00] Racketon opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics, pet supplies, kids' stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is with Rackiton, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental.
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+[0:20] Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, Booking.com, Viator, Verbo, Hotels.com, IHG, and more. Save on cruises, vacation packages, and experiences as well. And don't worry, cash back can be earned on top of your credit card points and with many loyalty programs. Because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead.
+
+[0:43] Take a trip. Find that perfect hotel. Book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain. Wherever you want to go, go with Racketton. Join today for free.
+
+[0:53] Go to Rackiton.com or get the app. That's R A K-U-T-E-N. Broadcasting live from Robertas in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. I'm Sam Edwards.
+
+[1:15] I'm third generation CureMaster from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause and what they're doing. They're supporting family raised uh livestock, small family farms, uh certified humane, pasture raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into uh Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon, sausage like my grandfather did.
+
+[1:44] You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or Virginia Traditions.com. Ah, Joe Pepper. Ah, buggy. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 approximately in the studio today in Bushwick with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, who's looking up some last minute questions that you guys have sent in.
+
+[2:17] How are you doing, Nastasha? I'm fine. It's a c yeah, right, you sound really fine. I'm fine. Anyway, it's a crappy day out here in Bushwick, and I had a crappy bike ride, but I won't talk about it.
+
+[2:27] I won't bore you with it. Uh call in all of your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718497-2128 for all of your questions. Cooking or not really, uh tech or not. Any questions, we'll take 'em.
+
+[2:39] Anyway, first question in on the email is from Mike Anonymous. Oh shoot. I should talk about uh today's sponsor. Today's sponsor uh is the same sponsor as last week, which is the Modernist Pantry. I'll read their little blurb uh because I'm obliged, and then I'm gonna talk about it a little bit.
+
+[2:54] Um whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues oh, uh by the way.
+
+[3:11] So this is last week we ran a promotion, and so rather than read the little same blurb because it's the same thing as that. I'm gonna give a follow-up. Uh Chris wrote in to us and said, We got a good response from last week's show. Uh he says we have a group of avid fans from around the world following us. That's very gratifying, right, Nastasha?
+
+[3:26] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she's she doesn't care. She's doing something else. Uh, since a bunch of people didn't hear the podcast in time to take advantage of the free meat glue, Modernist Pantry is gonna run the special again this week and leave it opening until leave it open until next week's show.
+
+[3:38] So all of you that call in for this entire week until next Tuesday's podcast can get uh the free sample of meat glue from Modernist Pantry. And the code that you need to enter, the promo code is CI, as in cooking issues, 54. That's CI 54. Uh and please let uh let them know that you uh oh also tell them, you know, obviously they know that you listen to the show if you put in CI 54. Tell your buddies too.
+
+[4:03] It's gonna make it seem like we have a lot of listeners. Um, in addition, we mentioned last week we were hoping that they were gonna be able to get Pectanex SPL, which is the miracle enzyme that we use for almost everything. We use it for clarification, either with or without a centrifuge. Although it really only clarifies uh thinner juices like apple juice without a centrifuge. Uh we use it for French fries, make them really crispy, and we use it for uh auto-suppremming citrus and things like that.
+
+[4:29] Uh they're gonna be carrying that uh in a week or so. They don't have a pre-order page yet up, but keep your eyes peeled because they're gonna start carrying it, which is really great because we hate uh carrying that stuff, right, Nastasha? Yeah, we do. You can still get it uh for the current time being through uh through the FCI through the French Culinary contact uh Airvay Malavare, but I'm looking forward to a worldwide supply in small quantities from Chris Anderson at the Modernist Pantry. So thanks, guys, and make sure to go to www.modernpantry.com, modernist pantry.com, and type in cooking issues, CI 54.
+
+[5:03] 54? Yes. 54 for your free meat glue sample. Anyway, uh first question in is from Mike Anonymous. We've gotten stuff from Mike Anonymous before, right?
+
+[5:13] Yes. It's a good name. Wouldn't it be awesome if that was his actual name, Mike Anonymous? That would suck growing up, right? No, that's my name.
+
+[5:19] Anyway, okay. Uh Mike says, I would like to hear your thoughts on what new technologies we can expect to find in the home kitchen in the near future. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on induction burners as I hope to update my stove in the near future. Sincerely, Mike Anonymous. Okay, interesting question.
+
+[5:34] I get this question actually quite a bit. Uh I'm, you know, for a living, I'm mainly concerned with what goes on in restaurant kitchens, but I also am interested in what's going on in home kitchens. Here's what I think. Here's what here's what I think. Regarding induction burners, they're awesome.
+
+[5:50] Uh they are really, really awesome. They had there's a number of problems with induction burners that have stopped them from becoming kind of uh, you know, set from saturating the market. If you currently own an electric stove, if you don't have gas, the very next thing you should do after listening to this podcast is go home, tear out your electric range, whether it be a ceramic top or you know, one of those little curly, curly resistance heater jobs, tear it out of the wall and throw it away and buy an induction unit. Right now. I mean, like before you do anything else, because if you're already running electric for your range, you have no excuse.
+
+[6:25] Electric is expensive. It uh it's very inefficient compared to an induction burner, and it heats up your kitchen, and it also takes a long time to heat up and cool down. It has a weird porpoise effect. I detest cooking with normal uh electric ranges. And if you've never used an induction burner before, they're kind of miraculous.
+
+[6:44] They um they heat up almost instantly and they cool off almost instantly. Uh and you know, everyone's like, me, well, maybe my pots won't work. Me, me, me. You can buy a little slug of iron, uh Kuhn Recon sells one, for instance, that you could put right on top of an induction burner and turn any pot, a clay pot, an aluminum pot, whatever, into an induction friendly pot. And uh, if you factor in the cost of uh a range and the kind of electrical savings and the fact that you won't be air conditioned in your house to make up for the fact that you're dumping all the extra heat into the house, um, it really saves money in the long run, even if you have to get rid of a few pots and pans.
+
+[7:20] So if you're already electric, please go get an induction right now. If you run gas, there's a couple of problems with induction. One, we are kind of the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. We have natural gas leaking out of our pipelines. Like we have so much natural gas that you know your local utility can't even tell if there's an appreciable amount leaking just because it's dribbling everywhere.
+
+[7:41] It's preposterously cheap natural gas in this country. If you live outside of this country in Europe, for instance, or I don't know what the situation is elsewhere where natural gas is a lot more expensive and electric is more competitive from a from a uh you know, from an energy standpoint, energy uses standpoint, also you should move to induction right away. In the US, um gas is so cheap uh that it's kind of hard from an economic standpoint to make the jump right away. Now, induction is faster, as fast as gas. Let's put it that way.
+
+[8:10] Uh, and in some cases, faster, because you're directly heating the uh the pot instead of having gas heat the pot. Um, it's incredibly more efficient than gas. So for a smaller amount of energy usage, you're getting uh a lot more heat on the pot. So we we have a standard kind of commercial style uh range in our amphitheater at school, and we put uh like kind of a standard home induction unit next to uh the commercial range, and the home induction unit boils water faster than the range does. So you really can't compare BTUs of gas output to how many watts are going into your induction burner.
+
+[8:42] You need to compare how fast they boil water. And a decent sized induction burner is usually faster than a decent sized gas burner, and typically doesn't heat up your house a lot. So it's fantastic that way. But it has a disadvantage that gas is a lot cheaper. Also, people aren't used to using an induction burner and they can't see kind of how much power they're putting into it, so there's a little bit of a learning curve.
+
+[8:59] And the other problem is inductions are a lot more fragile. A gas unit is never going to break. And you might have to remount the gas jets or whatever, but basically that sucker is going to work from now until your kids are old. Do you know what I mean? And so those are the two main things.
+
+[9:17] But I really, really like induction. Was that call for us? No. Just a random call. You forgot to turn off your phone?
+
+[9:24] Yeah. Really? All right. In terms of other things that are uh good for uh home kitchen, I sincerely hope that um sous vide is going to become more popular, actually, low temperature cooking. I can't believe I made that mistake of all people.
+
+[9:39] Uh low temperature cooking is going to be more important. And I'm hoping that a lot of people have circulators. I'm hoping circulators, immersion circulators come down in price simply because when you throw a party, they make you look like a complete rock star because you don't have to spend a lot of time in a kitchen while your guests are there. The food comes out always perfect, always good. I love them.
+
+[9:58] I use them all the time. I used one last night, I used one this weekend. At home, I'm talking. I use my circulator all the time. For reheating, also, it's very good because it's not going to ruin your food on a reheat.
+
+[10:08] The problem with it is not only the $800 price tag. The uh problem is that you know, there's not that many cookbooks and sources out there. I mean, our blog, I'm supposed to write more on this subject, but it's not as many recipes out there as there could be, and not as much knowledge as there could be. And part of the problem is that it's hard to get a major publisher to put out kind of a simpler book because not that many people have the unit yet. It's kind of a catch 22.
+
+[10:34] So you know, you don't want to come out with a book that then requires you to buy an 800 piece of dollar piece of equipment to own the book, and you know, so it's one of these like chicken egg problems. Uh, but you know, I think there's enough information there on the internet, enough early adopters and people who are willing to experiment that within 10 years you're gonna see circulators drop in price again and also become a lot more common in home kitchens because they're really good in home kitchens for the same reason they're good in a restaurant kitchen. You're gonna mess up your food less often, you're gonna have more control, delicious results, uh without a lot of time when you wanna be eating with your family. So I think that's gonna be uh a huge thing. As for other innovations in the in the home, I mean, I don't know.
+
+[11:14] I mean, I hope that our refrigerators and freezers get better, right? Although, I have you know, for those of you that have never been in a professional kitchen before, commercial fridges and freezers typically, there's a couple exceptions. Like I like the guys at Randall's, they're the worst. They break all the time, they're loud and they're completely inefficient. So home fridges and freezers are actually uh already quite good compared to commercial ones, but I think they have a long way to go.
+
+[11:35] I'm hoping more people have really butt-kicking blenders in their house, which we're gonna talk more about blenders in a minute. Anything else you can think of that we usually harp on, Nastasha? No, I think you covered it. Yeah? Yeah, nothing else.
+
+[11:46] I mean, I really you know, you guys like in the home, no one's gonna go. I mean, look, should should you get liquid nitrogen if you have uh a lot of parties in an outdoor space? I mean, yeah, I mean, you need to follow the safety rules. But I like liquid nitrogen a lot. Do I think it's gonna be in everybody's house?
+
+[11:59] No. Uh everyone who drinks seltzer should have a professional carbonation rig right now. Like if look, if let me put it this way: if you carry more than one case of seltzer home a week, you should get a professional seltzer rig or at least one of those soda streams tomorrow. First do the induction. After you get the induction squared away, tomorrow go out and get the uh carbonation rig.
+
+[12:18] I'm trying to think of what else I have. Most people aren't gonna get commercial units, uh uh you know, restaurant units in their home like I have. Most people aren't gonna get a large deep fryer at home, although I love mine, I have a 35-pound deep fryer and a fry like a mammogramma much better than a home fryer, but I don't think people are gonna get that. I don't think most people are gonna get the $400 blender, although I advocate it, right? Um in the future, there might be a one-stop machine that can be a really good rice cooker and a pressure cooker.
+
+[12:43] That might be good. Save some countertop space. But you know, people aren't gonna get freeze dryers and homogenizers and all that stuff at home just because there's not as many applications. There's not a um, they don't warrant the counter space and the time uh and you know the energy involved. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:57] Yes. Yes, now my iPad turned off, so I have to go find the next question. Uh okay. Well, I do have a question on blenders. Should I take the question on blenders or should we go to the first commercial break, you think?
+
+[13:09] I'll take the question on blenders, and if I have to run long, I'll run long. Okay. So uh a big hello from James in Australia to the entire cooking issues team. And by the way, James wrote in a question and then answered the question and then asked a separate question. So I'm just gonna go over the question.
+
+[13:22] We'll see how see how it works out. James is after a new blender, but down in Australia, Vitapeps, which are the blenders that we use up here in New York and all of the US, really. Vitapeps are insanely expensive, like more than 1,200 bucks, uh, which is slightly less than the uh polyscience uh immersion circulators cost over there. And um there is no secondhand market, which there really isn't. People don't tend to give up their Vitapeps unless they're dead, unless they're broken.
+
+[13:45] Um a home style model is uh a Vitapep because Vitapep makes a home version and a and a commercial version. You know what the difference is? Almost nothing except the warranty. They give you a crappier warranty on the commercial unit because they know that you're gonna beat the ever-loving crap out of it. Anyway, uh the home unit is just under $1,000.
+
+[14:03] My other options are a home grade uh blend Tech, which is another good blender, uh, that comes in around $800. But there's a locally made option, a Breville, that's about $250, which is also available in the U.S. It's $2,000 watts, 500 watts more powerful than the Blend Tech and the Consumer Vitamixes. And so the question is basically and it's the hemisphere model of Breville. I'm gonna have a lot to say about this.
+
+[14:25] And then he basically. So he comes up with another one later called a uh Samic. Uh is that what it called? You gotta find it for me, Nastasha. It's called a C Mac, which is from Australia, C Mac Blender, which looks like a really professional kind of butt-kicking unit, which is I think what he's gonna go after.
+
+[14:43] And his question is basically what's the difference between all these blenders? What the hell is the deal with blenders anyway? How to choose a blender, etc., etc., etc. Okay. So the reason we like Vitapeps in this country is twofold.
+
+[14:56] One, uh they are strong, they're very powerful, especially the new Vitapep 3s, and they have an even more monster one that's that's very very powerful. You can't go on wattage rating alone. The wattage is kind of a BS unit, uh, a B a BS unit of measure of how that's basically just saying how much energy is it sucking out of the wall. If you put uh you know, a thousand watt light bulb on uh on a wire and then attached a 200 watt motor to it and hooked that up to a blender, you know what you have there? A 1200 watt blender, even though you're throwing away a thousand watts of that as light and heat.
+
+[15:28] You get what I'm saying? So don't take the wattage as the as the rating. What you really care about is how much power is the blender delivering to your food. Um, and you know, that basically translates into how fast is the tip of the blade moving relative to the food that you're blending. And we talked a little bit about this last week when we were talking about rotor state or homogenizers, and they put so much more energy into your food because they can uh stop your food from moving so that you can smack it with a moving blade, right?
+
+[15:57] So we talked a little bit about why a rotor state or homogenizer for a given amount of uh wattage energy you're putting into it can deliver more uh shearing power onto onto your food. So don't go directly on um, don't go directly on the wattage. What you have to figure out is what the speed of the blade is going to be under load, right? That's really the important thing. And Vitapep does very, very well at that.
+
+[16:21] Uh blend tech does very, very well at that as well, which is another unit you can get in the US. It actually has a slightly wider blade than most Vitapeps, and I think it's a better tip speed, so theoretically gets a better uh better product. But here's where Vitapep really wins uh over all other blenders in the US that I've used so far, and that is the user interface. If you're making smoothies all day, right, you want to press a button and you want to have that smoothie just get made, and it's gonna go through a bunch of profiles to make sure that thing gets blended properly, and you don't want to have to scoop and mix around with all kinds of things. Um, blend techs are great at that because they're designed for juice bars, and that's why they have a lock on a lot of the juice bar market in the US, because any monkey can throw a bunch of bananas into a blend tech along with some protein powder and a bunch of other crap, press a button and walk away, and you get a smoothie that's smooth that doesn't have a lot of chunks and particles in it, right?
+
+[17:14] Vitapeps, on the other hand, typically they used to have a kind of a bad uh blender pitcher style that required you to use a tamper to kind of move things around, otherwise it tends to choke up at the base, right? Uh and which is kind of unfortunate. Um, the benefit of that choked up base on a blender at the bottom of a Vitaprep that people don't talk about is that you can get a smaller amount of liquid to blend properly in a Vitapep than you can in the equivalent blend Tech because you have to fill the blend Tech up above the blade level before it starts blending properly, and it's a much wider area down there than it is in the Vitapep. But that said, if you're gonna blend a whole bunch, the Vita uh the Blend Tech has a better geometry at the bottom of its uh uh the bottom of its picture to get the stuff going. Vitapep has a new uh pitcher that is that has a similar geometry.
+
+[17:56] Anyway, that's you know a little bit here or there. But where the Vitapep really wins is on that interface. It's got two flap switches and a knob. When you're a cook, you don't wanna have to have your boss come in and program I'm gonna make a pesto into your freaking blender. You wanna have a switch so that you can ring and then go in high and spin it high when you're going.
+
+[18:16] That's what you really want. And Vitapep is the best at giving you immediate feedback with uh you know a potentiometer knob that tells you uh you know that lets you set exactly how fast you want it to be at this minute. Flip it between high and low with big old-style goofy paddle switches with very minimal electronics, right? And that's really where the Vita prep is awesome. Even though that uh that little potentiometer thing goes crappy a lot, and you have to replace them after a couple of years, they start getting all wonky on you, and then you'll turn it on and it'll bring without you turning it.
+
+[18:46] Everybody hates that, and you'll eventually spray stuff all over your ceiling. The user interface is so good that people love it. And this is why, and I called the guys at Blentec, frankly, uh maybe five years ago, four years ago, and I was like, look, you have an awesome piece of equipment, your user interface sucks. What you need to do is build a unit for chefs that just has a knob and a and you know, and two buttons like the Vitaprep has. And they said, Yeah, but this really gives control to I was like, listen, shut up.
+
+[19:10] I'm telling you, a cook wants two flip switches and a knob to change the speed. So anyway, uh the C Mac unit looks very good. Uh it is also completely electronically controlled, so I'm sure it does really well in the juice market. You know, uh James said that he's, you know, he said that basically all of the reviews he gets off of are raw on vegan like websites and kind of you know impugns their their taste a little bit because they've already made such a poor life choice and being a raw vegan, does his words not mine. Uh and while that might be true, James, they are like raw vegan people know a boatload about juicing because they have a whole subculture that basically turns everything they eat into a liquid and drinks their food in liquid form.
+
+[19:49] So whether or not you agree with their life choices, they know from juicing and blending. And the Australian website that uh he sent me to, which is uh uh battle of the blenders pumpkin, if you want to look it up on the uh on the internets and the YouTube. And the Australian dude in that actually has a really nice term for instead of high speed blenders, he calls them power blenders, which I really like because it makes it makes it seem like your blender is a puny blender, unless it's a power blender, right? So he re has this one, this Australian one called C Mac. And if there's anyone in Australia, I would love to try a C Mac.
+
+[20:19] Like, I don't know if I ever get to Australia or if anyone ever wants to send one to us, I'd love to try it. It basically electronically senses uh whether or not you're blending properly and adjusts the speed automatically. And while that sounds great, I still want the control. I want the flap doodle and the control. So I'd love to be able to have that electronic BS, but I'd love to also be able to shoot it in the head and be able to run my blender like a normal blender.
+
+[20:39] The other one, uh also from down under, but available here that he mentions, is Breville. Breville makes a good quality blender. I'll tell you a little story about this. I was doing a demo with Chris Young in Florida for the Miami uh food and what's it called? South Beach Food and Winefest.
+
+[20:51] South Beach Food and Winefest with Chris Young from the Myers Cuisine. And this lady, we were we were fluffing, we were f you know, fluffing for uh a bunch of food network stars like Giata and stuff. This little kid comes up and he's like, he they she raises her hand. I think she's got a question from me or for Chris. We're like, yes, little girl, what's going on?
+
+[21:06] She's saying, I made this pasta necklace for Giada. And I'm like, oh geez. And then so I so I had to save the pasta necklace. And I mean, I I couldn't tell the kid, listen, I've never met Giotta, and they're gonna hustle my butt out of here and like you know, basically flush me down the toilet before they bring Giotto on with her entourage. But I was like, look, kid, I'll leave the pasta necklace around this thing, and I'm sure Giada will see it.
+
+[21:25] So hopefully Giada got her pasta necklace. Anyway, that's aside the point. Breville was sponsoring one of the things there, and they had the rep there, and they show me the blender pitcher, and she says to me, 'You can't break it. Go ahead, try to break it.' I said, Really? She's like, Yeah, and this lady had never met me before.
+
+[21:41] So I said, Okay, all right then. So I put it on the ground and I jumped up as high as I could and stomped on the blender like three and four times. Uh, and I was able to shave a portion of the blender off because it was on concrete. So I was able to shave a corner off of the blender pitcher, but the blender pitcher did in fact not break. So, one of their marketing claims is that the blender pitcher is very strong, and indeed it is.
+
+[22:02] Whether or not the blender itself it can get close to a vita prep, I don't know. I've seen some favorable reviews, but I've never actually blended with it because we didn't have the stuff on hand to uh blend. And those are my feelings on blending. Oh, by the way, one more thing. Do not read any any magazine out there, whether or not they're my friends, like popular mechanics, they're a friend of mine.
+
+[22:22] Uh, you know, I've worked with them. Um, you know, Cooks Illustrated, I'm fine with those guys. Never believe anyone's blender ratings. They don't know what the hell they're talking about. They give you stupid reasons to like or dislike a blender.
+
+[22:34] The only thing that matters is can it take can it take uh a sauce that you would have had to strain through a Tammy and make it so that it's silky, smooth and delicious? Can it get the particle size down below or close to about 20 microns so that you taste this stuff as being smooth? And very few blenders can do that. The blend tech can do it, the Vitaprep can do it. I'm assuming that this C Mac uh can do it.
+
+[22:58] I don't know if the Brevel can do it, but it's not whether or not it can make a margarita because in a kitchen that's not really the test we care about. It's can it make a sauce smooth? So we'll take a commercial break break, think about blenders, and we'll be back. Freaks fly together. All right, turn it up now.
+
+[23:44] Turn it up now. What up to the camping? She's always collapse. I just want to watch your dance. Alright.
+
+[24:05] Turn it up now. Turn it up now. Do you want to ride on the clouds and see? I'll be a mistress C O D. Cold the hell be that you'd say to me.
+
+[24:27] Or shell me on the honey beat. She can bring it to me. She can really do me. She can look back through me. And make all the baby boss screen.
+
+[24:57] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. That song goes out to Colin because uh Nastasha has broken some secret code in Colin's messages when he comes in that he likes that song. Is that true or false?
+
+[25:14] You know, Nastasha's good at those secret codes. But here is uh longtime listener Colin's questions. On the ultrasonic homogenizer, by the way, an ultrasonic homogenizer is something that vibrates uh very rapidly. It uses a piezo, uh like a pisotransducer, vibrate very rapidly. And uh you can use it for a couple of things.
+
+[25:31] One, you can make an ultrasonic fog with it, which is how humidifiers work. You can um you can clean jewelry with it by shaking with it. That's how an ultrasonic jewelry uh thing works. A homogenizer uses very focused, high power sonic energy to uh cavitate, make little bubbles, and actually rupture things. So that's what an ultrasonic homogenizer is.
+
+[25:50] I have one, and when you run them, people run screaming from the kitchen because they make horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible noise. Yeah? Horrible. Nustacha's nodding, yes. Okay.
+
+[26:01] Colin wants to know could one use an ultrasonic homogenizer such as a Branson uh or the new poly science sonic prep, which I'm sure is a relabeled Branson, uh, because not very many people make these things, uh, as a highly effective toothbrush. As the only rigid bodies in the mouth uh full of soft matter, the tooth uh as the only rigid bodies in a mouthful of soft matter, the two services would likely get the most cavitation action. You can safely immerse your hand into an ultrasonic bath, so I was wondering if the more sensitive skin on the mouth might fare as well. Obviously, you'd reduce the wattage, uh, so it acts more of uh of a cleaner than a dismembrator, which is something that takes the membranes off of cells, which is another thing they call them sonic dismembrators. Uh I would certainly work better than those tongue scrapers and would cavitate the bits, bits of mixed business from between uh one's teeth better than floss.
+
+[26:46] Modernist chefs would have no more excuses for halatosis, praise the day. Uh, and he's wondering if this is true or false. Don't do that, Colin. Don't do that. Colin, don't do that.
+
+[26:56] Um, look, I have uh one, and you know, I ha I had for a while until it broke an ultrasonic toothbrush, but they're basically vibrating very softly. If you take an ultrasonic homogenizer, and and it's a demo I used to do to show not to mess around with them, uh, I would take the probe and stick it into a dish towel and fire it up, and it would catch the dish towel on fire from the friction of it going back and forth. So, I mean, you could theoretically hook a rubber toothbrush sucker up to it and uh turn the power way down, but then you're dealing with like a two thousand dollar piece of equipment that you're turning into a um, you know, into a uh, you know, a $50 toothbrush. They make, like you can buy like a $50 or an $80 ultrasonic toothbrush. And I would definitely go that way.
+
+[27:41] Never stick an ultrasonic homogenizer in your mouth for any reason under any circumstance. And this is again not one of those Jack, we were supposed to have like a noise that meant Dave is serious this time or something like that, but we never got it. Dave is serious this time, never stick an ultrasonic homogenizer in your mouth. Uh okay. H.
+
+[27:58] Montaire writes in about uh whipped cream. Is there a way to make heat-resistant whipped cream that will hold its shape when put into something hot, like a canal or a soup? Yes. You like that, Nastasha? Yes.
+
+[28:11] One of my famous one-word answers. Okay, here's the issues. Um this is the typical thing that that you have to do. When you're using a hydrocolloid, which is new aid thickener or gelling agent, right? You you're looking for right now the thing to keep it keep it hot.
+
+[28:25] Whipped cream itself doesn't stay when you put it into hot things. So what you need to do is make the flavor of whipped cream using an entirely different technology. So the question is, and this is basically so when Wiley's doing his fried mayonnaise, what does he do? He makes something that's not mayonnaise that tastes like mayonnaise, that has the texture of mayonnaise, right? But is in fact a fluid gel made out of gel-an that's heat stable.
+
+[28:52] So it's texture of mayonnaise in a heat stable form, right? And he can flavor it however he wants. So he does the same thing with Hollandaise. He has flavor of Hollandaise in a heat-stable form, which happens to be a fluid gel. Now, you could make a cream-flavored fluid gel out of gel-an, for instance.
+
+[29:09] You could then whip that in an ISI maker, right? And you could have a very creamy mousse, or you uh, you know, something like that. So you would make a mousse that's whipped with a whipped cream kind of a texture to it, that's either a fluid gel or even like a set mousse using a gel, uh, and you and and make it heat stable. But without actually running the tests, I don't know what's gonna make the most whipped cream texture. So you might be best off with uh like a gel-an fluid gel stabilized whipped cream, right?
+
+[29:38] So you could take a gel-an fluid gel, mix it into regular whipped cream, whip it, and then see whether it'll hold when it's hot or whether the fat will bleed out. You might have to um actually whip cream, uh like over whip, like you have to the problem is you have to stabilize it so it doesn't over whip. So you'd have to use like a light cream, maybe whip it with a Versa whip and set it with another gel that sets when it's hot, like you could set it almost like a mousse with like a with uh with gel in or with something else and that's heat stable, agar maybe, and set it and see what's going on. Uh so there's a number of different um things you can do, but whipped cream itself isn't gonna stabilize. You're gonna basically have the flavor and texture of whipped cream using an entirely different method of setting.
+
+[30:18] Um so you'd have to run a whole bunch of different tests, but that's how I'd go about uh kind of setting up the experiment if you're gonna do it. Is that making any sense, Nastasha? Yes. Well, it does because she has to listen to me talk about this crap all the time. So I'm sure this stuff makes some sort of sense to her anyway.
+
+[30:33] Uh okay. Um so uh we have when is it Nastasha? When's our museum event? Thursday, September 29th, from 7 to the 10 p.m. Right.
+
+[30:44] At Ma Pesh. At Mopesh at the uh at the restaurant Mapesh, which is on We're basically taking it over. It's on uh 50 six. Is there a party going on in our background? Do you hear that on the headphones?
+
+[30:58] It's really loud. 50 15 West 56th Street between 5th and 6. Alright, so Mapesh, we're taking over. There's a bar uh at the mesmine level when you walk in, and we have an upper story at the hotel. Apparently the hotel is called the Hotel Chambers, it's not called the Mapesh Hotel, although you could have fooled me.
+
+[31:14] Anyway, so uh we're gonna have an event there. There's gonna be five uh bartenders. And do we have the fifth one yet or no? No, it might be you, it might be Don Lee. It might be me.
+
+[31:26] Don, if you're listening, we want it to be you because I want to try and get out of one of these events without actually having to make a cocktail. But we have uh so maybe Don Lee, right? Who else we have? We have Evan Clem. Uh-huh.
+
+[31:36] We have Kenta. Kent Agotha from uh from uh he's actually the the best bartender in the world. He won that last universe, actually, right. Assuming that there's no other good mixed drinks anywhere, you know, wherever there's intelligent life, assuming they don't have mixed drinks there. You know, which is a fair shot.
+
+[31:50] Uh the best bartender in the universe won that at the uh at the tails of the cocktail this year. Uh who else we have? We have Um Chad and Christy. Oh, yeah, Chad, uh Chad Solomon, Christy Pope. And Jason.
+
+[32:01] Jason Latrell, right? Uh is that five? Yeah. You sure I'm not missing anyone? And the gimmick on this one, get the gimmick is uh if cocktails were street food from X, right?
+
+[32:14] So we have uh absolute vodka, so that would be if cocktails are street food from Sweden. And where what else we have? We have we have uh Bombay East, that's I don't know whether Jason's gonna choose Vietnam or Thailand because they the thing they add to Bombay East is either Vietnamese peppercorn or Thai uh lemongrass. And what are the other ones we have? We have uh Hendrix, Hendrix, which we're doing England because gin, right?
+
+[32:35] And we couldn't do two gin from anyway. Anyway, whatever. Next 901. 901 Mexico. Uh-huh.
+
+[32:41] What did you say absolute? It's absolute. But we didn't get all five. I know we're missing one. Someone's gonna get mad at us.
+
+[32:46] Yeah, I know. Someone's gonna oh uh makers. Makers mark from the United States of America. Giving that one to Chad and Christy because of their southern heritage. Anyway, there are still slots available if you want to go next week, and you should go to what website to do that.
+
+[33:00] HTTP uh colon backslash backslash mofed membership.eventbrite.com. But I guess you could just do mofad membership.eventbrite.com, right? Right. And come prepared to spend some freaking money because we're gonna have a donation bucket and we're also gonna have an auction. And what we're trying to do is keep the museum of food and drink afloat.
+
+[33:19] Uh you can go look at the last post we have for the last fundraiser, which was a serious, serious event. This one's gonna be just cocktails, but we hope it's gonna be a lot of fun. I don't hope it's gonna be a lot of fun. Do we have an do we know anyone that's gonna show up? I'm not gonna give away.
+
+[33:31] We're gonna try to get some nice special guests that you can mingle with if you come to the event, correct? Yes. All right. Uh so uh a note of what I am doing today. Uh well, actually, we didn't talk about uh Bordain chute, right?
+
+[33:45] You didn't talk about Harvard, you didn't talk about Bordane shoot, yeah. We allow to talk about the Bourdain shoot? Mm-hmm. Is half of your earphone broken? Folks out there, half of my earphones broken, so it feels really weird.
+
+[33:52] I feel like I'm about to I'm constantly turning around my microphone like uh oh, there we go. Um so uh last week we did the Tony Bourdain shoot, and the theory of this was for no reservations was this Christmas show. And so I said I didn't want to do an ancient Christmas dinner because really I didn't think Christmas was so important as an ancient dinner source, so I wanted to do what what would Jesus have eaten or what would Mary and Joseph is what I was thinking eaten around their birthday. And the research we did was pretty uh was pretty I thought pretty interesting. We found out that they used an oven in the in that in that era in that zone in Palestine, very similar to an Indian tandoor oven of today.
+
+[34:29] And in fact, that style of oven uh was widespread all the way from India where it's popular today, up through uh, you know, like where you know Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, all that stuff is, all the way over through the Middle East and all the way over into Africa. So they had this huge range where this oven, and it's basically a like a conical vessel that you fire from the bottom and you load from the top uh was uh was basically used throughout this region. So I thought that was awesome. And I've always wanted a tandoor. So Cliff and Piper uh and I, two, you know, two of my ex-interns, uh, built a tandoor like in like three hours from crap that we could find at the hardware store.
+
+[35:07] First, we called all these places, can you get us a tandoor? Can you get us a tandoor? And they're like, it was a thousand bucks in like two weeks to wait. So I was like, crap on that. We build it from flower pots and sand, and actually, you can find on the internets, uh, if you just look up flower pot tandoor and any of the make sites, you'll can figure out how to make a flower pot tandoor.
+
+[35:21] And that thing worked straight up great. We used a uh I you know, frankly, it was delicious, right? We also made uh we we made pigeon, because one of the things that uh Mary when you know when when Jesus was born, did I go through this last week? I think you did. When G okay, so anyway, when Jesus shoot.
+
+[35:37] Uh well when anyway, so we cooking this pigeon because you know, when Jesus was born, they gave pigeons to sacrifice to the priests, you know, etc. Uh so we cooked pigeon and we boiled the pigeon in chicken stock first. And uh, which was typical for what they would have done. We didn't boil it, we did it about a hundred and hundred and forty degrees or so just to kind of like start the cook off in the chicken stock. And uh we then rubbed it with cumin and fennel, which are two spices they would have had.
+
+[36:01] We koshered it beforehand so it was nice and salty. We did the official koshering technique, which is soak it in water, like rub salt all over it, let it sit for an hour, and then rinse it three times and pat it dry, poach it off uh for a little bit, and then we stuck it in the tandoor. I put a coat hanger through it and put it down in the tandoor and spun it. First, I caught the string on fire and burnt my hand getting the thing out, but you know, whatever, you know, we can't have everything. So the but when we did it, that pigeon was straight up delicious.
+
+[36:25] So if you make yourself a flower pot tandoor uh with a you know a garbage can, sand, if you can get vermiculite, get it, and cook yourself some pigeon in your flower pot tandoor, because that was straight up good, right? Yeah. Also, I was really worried because uh, you know, I I spoke to uh a chef a long time ago about tandoors and he would always laughing that his favorite part of a new cook coming into the kitchen was putting him on tandoor station and watching the flesh peel off the back of his hands from putting his hand into the hot tandoor all the time because it's hot as the devil, and you have to put your hand in and literally slapped the bread onto the side of the unit. And so I was a little more than a little bit nervous that this was gonna totally fry me out. So but it wasn't so bad.
+
+[37:03] I mean I I burnt the hair off my arm, right? But it wasn't such a big deal. Like I didn't I didn't run around screaming too much, right? So go ahead and build yourself a flower pot tandor. What else do we make?
+
+[37:13] The bread was really good that we made that. We made like an old school flatbread with like really crappily ground uh wheat and also with barley, but the wheat was a lot better, right? Yes. Yeah, and did we do anything else that was fun? Rizzotto.
+
+[37:25] No, we didn't do lentils. She like Nastasha has risotto on our mind. She must want risotto for dinner because she's just thinking risotto, risotto, risotto, you made risotto. That dude Bourdain is a tall dude, too, by the way. Did you know how tall that sucker was?
+
+[37:38] Probably like six four. I don't know. He's a huge man, tall. Also drops a lot of F-bombs while he's shooting. Did they cut that out during the show or no?
+
+[37:46] I don't think so. Anyway, so look for that to air on December the 15th or something like that. Something like that. Uh all right. So what I'm doing today, so when I went to Colombia, uh, I don't know if I mentioned this.
+
+[37:59] When I went to Colombia, uh, I wasn't able to get any money. Uh so you mentioned this. I mentioned I did so Chris Costau, the you know, three-star Michelin chef, uh, you know, out in Napa, gave me a hundred and fifty bucks uh in Colombian cash money so that I wouldn't die, basically. Um, and we had a discussion, and he said that he is very interested in the flavors of tomato plant, right? So I you know, I said, well, I've done that before.
+
+[38:31] You know, I I took a I've roto vaped, uh, and also you know who used to be interested in that years ago is David Kinch out at Manresa, also in California. It must be something about Californians and tomato plants. Even though we straight up, I'm sorry, California, we straight up have the best tomatoes I've ever had in my life. Crap on anyone else's tomatoes over the best tomatoes I've ever had are from New Jersey. Uh Aunt Ruby's German Greens and the German stripes from uh Stokes Farms in in New Jersey.
+
+[39:00] And I can say that they don't give me a break on anything. They don't give me anything. But these are, and in fact, I can't get them anymore hardly because New Yorker or New York magazine or New York or one of those wrote them up like a two years ago, and now they've sell as the best tomato, and they sell out now, so I have a tough time getting them. Hurricane came through here and it didn't do any damage to New York City, but it did a lot of damage to parts of Jersey and up in Vermont, and all of their tomato plants' roots were underwater, and so a lot of the tomatoes kind of blew up and exploded. So the the season is over early this year.
+
+[39:30] Anyway, that's an aside, a sad aside. I had the last of the great uh Aunt Ruby's, I am told, uh, on Saturday. They're delicious. Anyway, um, and by the way, Aunt Ruby who came up with this, the heirloom state, you know her last name? Tuesday.
+
+[39:43] Arnold. Oh. Aunt Ruby Arnold, no relation. I wish it was. I wish she was my relative.
+
+[39:47] Anyway, she died in like 1997. So uh tomato plant vodka, I made it a bunch of years ago in a rotary evaporator, and so I'm gonna make it again today. I'm gonna make a whole bunch of it, but I'm gonna do it legally. For the first time, I'm gonna do a legal uh roto evap of tomato plant vodka, and I'm gonna ship it off to Chris Costau as a thank you for uh giving us giving me the ability to not be dead in Columbia. Yes?
+
+[40:13] Yeah. Anyway, uh I'm going back. Uh did I did you ever taste that tomato plant vodka? Mm-hmm. I had still had some left?
+
+[40:19] Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's weird. It's green, it tastes so green, so bizarre. I love I like it a lot. I mean, but you could never make a mixed drink with it.
+
+[40:26] Um, because if you made a mixed drink with it, people were like, what the hell is that flavor? And you say tomato plant vodka. Um, when am I going back to Columbia? Do you have any idea? Yeah.
+
+[40:35] Second, third, and fourth. Soon. Anyway, I love Columbia. I've talked enough about Columbia, but I love it there. I actually have two Colombian friends visiting me right after right after this program.
+
+[40:44] Um, what is it? Yeah. Um, so and the last thing I'm gonna talk about before I go is the Harvard. Uh, because we didn't talk about it or we did. No.
+
+[40:52] So uh I'm going back to Harvard sometime in November to do a uh public lecture on drinks. I hope to have some sort of like whiz-bang cran craziness. I'm also doing a lecture at the Beverage Alcohol Resource Program, David Wendrich's thing, which is when, next week? Uh yeah. Yeah.
+
+[41:07] So if uh I don't know if there's still slots available for that, but it's kind of the greatest bar program ever, ever made. It's Dave Wondrich, Dale de Groff, uh, Steve uh Olsen, Paul Packelt. Um I'm sure I'm missing, I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other things, but it's kind of the craziest bar program in the world because you have some of the biggest spirit nuts on the planet going out and bringing like personal bottles of weird crap, and you spend, I believe, the morning tasting every damned uh every damned liquor you can, so you can identify it later, and then there's lectures on theory, there's lectures on so I'm gonna go give uh lecture probably on clarification, rotary evaporation, and my general thoughts about high-tech stuff next week. Uh and then a drinks lecture, a lecture in um November. Um but at the Harvard, it's kind of uh I we didn't do it last year, but it's kind of a strange course, right?
+
+[41:56] I mean, Nastasha, you went. What do you think? I mean it's kind of an it's an interesting idea. They get a whole bunch of chefs and they do a demo and then they try and turn it into a class about uh about science, right? But it's kind of like it's physics for poets, is basically what it is, right?
+
+[42:11] Taught through the lens of cooking. Right. Now, most of the chefs who go, uh, last week was Juan Roca. I don't know who's gonna be this week. You know, Juan Rock, if you don't know him, is kind of like super duper badass mofo badass, you know, guy with low temperature cooking and also with rotary evaporation.
+
+[42:28] So, you know, very big influence on me. Uh very big influence, I think, on all the chefs kind of of you know, Wiley's generation, my generation in terms of sous vide and low temperature and whatnot. Uh they're they're getting like a whole bunch of uh of people going up, but it's kind of weird to have to beat those chefs into kind of a science mold, right? It's kind of an interesting problem. Me, because I'm a schmuck, instead, I was like, I was just like, I'll just do some demos around the science because you know, whatever.
+
+[42:51] But do you think they went all right in my lecture? It was all right. It's all right, it's available on the web so you can see. I listened to it, I said um a lot. Apparently, I don't know, Nastash, you said I don't say um too much on the radio, but I said um every other word when I was at when I was at Harvard.
+
+[43:04] But let me tell you something. They have a vacuum pump at Harvard. One of the demos we did uh at Harvard was uh a demo Johnny had told me about that he saw it at Nathan Mirvold's joint with Chris Young. You take liquid nitrogen, you put liquid nitrogen into a vacuum machine, and a regular commercial vacuum machine will work, and you suck a vacuum on it, and as you suck a vacuum on it, the temperature starts dropping. Uh uh because you're evaporatively cooling.
+
+[43:26] Think about it. As you're boiling off liquid nitrogen, you're evaporatively cooling it. So when you put a vacuum on it, you boil it off so quickly that the temperature drops about two, three degrees, and that's enough to turn liquid nitrogen from a liquid to a solid. Now, Harvard's vacuum machine is so freaking awesome that we needed to literally let bleed air out of it because it was sucking of all too hard of a vacuum too fast, and it just exploded into the solid bunch of uh nitrogen foam. That was kind of the most fun thing I did, right?
+
+[43:55] That was I mean, in my feeling, that was pretty badass. And that brings me to my last question also from James in Australia on vacuum equipment. I've just managed James says to get a large chamber sealer a vacuum sealer cheap on eBay. Well congratulations to you I've had a look at Modernist cuisine and online but uh all the information out there is sort of stick it in the bag and vac it. What are my tips on maintenance, bag size to food ratio, how to tell when you have uh crazy over vacuum your food and any other ideas on what to use it for apart from packaging for sous vide and stuffing alcohol into fruit.
+
+[44:27] Well you can freeze liquid nitrogen into a solid but that's pretty useless because as soon as you let the air back in the thing melts and it and it goes back to being a liquid again. Here's uh the maintenance maintenance is fairly easy on a vacuum machine. You need to do two things regularly you need to replace the Teflon tape over the seal bar. You need to do that as soon as it starts burning through otherwise your bags are going to be sealed improperly. You just have to buy the tape you can buy it from a second hand uh from a third party like McMaster car I don't know what they call it in Australia but I'm sure you have an industrial supply place that sells it Teflon tape or you know not the stuff for plumbing it's an adhesive uh heat proof Teflon tape or just get it directly from the vacuum manufacturer uh from the thing but that's something to do regularly but the most important thing the heart and soul the literally the heart of the vacuum machine is the uh vacuum pump and the vacuum pump needs one thing to work properly and that's clean oil.
+
+[45:17] When you vacuum something uh as you vacuum it liquid is be evaporating off of your product and it's contaminating your oil with water and it's reducing the uh the the level of vacuum you can get to and also making it take longer and longer for you to get down to that vacuum. So the key is to keep the pump clean. And the way to keep the pump clean is to run it till it gets hot. Most commercial vacuum machines have a have a pump in it made by a company called Busch out of Germany. And they're designed to run hot.
+
+[45:41] So what you do is you leave the lid open and you run it for minutes until it gets really hot with air streaming through it, and it's gonna boil all the liquid out and keep your pump oil nice and clear. If you do that regularly, you shouldn't have to change your pump oil more than about depends on how heavy your usage is, but every six months to a year you should be able to keep it before you have to change it, okay? That's the prime thing in maintenance. Obviously, keep the unit clean. Your unit might have an acrylic lid, so don't wash the lid with alcohol or it could get hazy depending on the unit you have.
+
+[46:10] But that's basically it. Every morning uh or whenever, whenever you see that it's not working right, I would rip the there. Usually there's a metal plate for some unknown reason covering up the window on the pump, showing you what the condition of the oil is. And the first thing I do when I get a vacuum machine is rip that plate off so that I can see the condition of the oil at all times. And I guarantee you, if it's been used, it's gonna look like salad dressing.
+
+[46:31] So putting you know, put new oil in, obviously, because you don't know what happened before, and then clean your pump oil out. So that's the main uh thing. Also, bag size to food ratio is important, but people don't think about it. If you're sucking a complete vacuum on something, the bag size isn't very important. If you use a bag that's too small, what happens is is you're gonna get smashed the bag around the corners of your food and you're gonna get crazy portions that look like pillows, they look insane, and nobody thinks those are appetizing if you see little bag marks in your food, right?
+
+[46:57] Um, but assuming you have uh enough liquid like oil or whatever in the bag such that uh you know that the bag can seal around the liquid and not deform your product, right? Then having a bag that's you know much bigger if you're sucking a full vacuum doesn't make that much of a difference. But uh, two things. You don't want a big bag because a big bag takes up extra room in your circulator, right? You're spending extra money on the plastic, although that's not the primary thing.
+
+[47:21] But the main thing is that a lot of times we're gonna suck an incomplete vacuum on our product, and then the bag size does matter because if you have kind of a loose seal and a big bag, it gets really loose, right? So you want to try and have the bag be uh about you know uh just extend enough around your food to uh allow it to close around your your sauce without or oil or whatever without it crunching your food. That said it's not hyper hypercritical. But uh the reason you're gonna want to not suck a complete vacuum on stuff is that the vacuum the vacuum level that you use radically affects the texture of certain products. For instance, chicken.
+
+[47:59] If you uh you know, if you vacuum chicken really hard, it tastes like canned chicken after you cook it. If you vacuum fish really hard, it it ruins the texture, makes it kind of stringy. And you can look on cookingissues.com and look for uh you look under I think it's called boring but useful technical post on vacuum machine or something like that. You can look it up and you can see our tests that we ran on that. Uh and um, you know, the Chris and uh and Nathan have a theory on that in Modernist Cuisine about why that's the case.
+
+[48:26] They think it has something to do with boiling. I kind of I disagree with that. I'm I'd love to have that debate with them, but I kind of disagree with it. Um but that said, you know, if you if you over compress something for storage, it's usually not a big deal. It's when you cook something under a high vacuum.
+
+[48:40] That's my feeling is that you're gonna have a uh a problem with it. Um anyway, as for other ideas, you're gonna have to wait for our next installation, which I promise I will start working on. And I'll tell you what, Nastasha's been beating on me to do some of these sous vide primers, and I have more incentive. I'll give you a little hint because I know the French Culinary Institute does not listen to our webcasts. I believe the cooking issues blog is going to be switched to my personal ownership soon.
+
+[49:05] With you know, they'll they'll still have they'll still be the French Culinary's tech and stuff blog. But I believe what happened is uh I wrote uh a post a couple weeks back, right before I went to Columbia on how to mess with pressure cookers. Um, and uh their lawyer and their lawyers freaked out, right? Mustacha, true or false. Should I be talking about this?
+
+[49:23] Their lawyers freaked out. And so I think they think it might be easier for it to just be my personal blog that's called the French Culinaries Tech and Stuff blog. So, anyway, that's that, and that's cooking issues. Fishers fish. Oh, thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[49:53] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The following message is from Bubbies.
+
+[50:25] Bubbies Main Street is thrilled to announce a fall program of special dinners celebrating efforts to renovate American agriculture and the American menu. Each event will feature a conversation with persons who are deeply involved in a significant aspect of this project, followed by a meal that illustrates materially and pleasurably the themes under discussion. From our perspective at Bubbies, we observe and participate in three parallel movements that are gaining momentum in the New York region and around the country. New farmers supplying green markets and alternative food networks with produce and animals raised without relying on an arsenal of chemicals or industrial methods. And new artisans reinventing food crafts, and a fresh appreciation of authentic American cooking from all regions and communities.
+
+[51:05] For more information about these events, visit Bubbies.com. That's B U B Y S.com. Or contact Danny Finkel directly at 646-338-0422. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. Fourteen family farms and over 50 restaurants have committed to participation in No Goat Left Behind, a new program developed by Heritage Foods USA, a meat distribution company dedicated to preserving endangered breeds.
+
+[51:36] Without an end market, the majority of male dairy goats are sold into the commodity market or killed at birth. Dairy farmers are always struggling with feed prices, milk prices, and weather. Goats usually have twins or triplets, and for every female who will become a milker, there is a male buckling who will become a financial drain. It makes no sense that these males are sold into the commodity market or put to death when the United States imports almost 50% of its annual goat supply. Home consumers interested in participating can order goats through HeritageFoods USA.com.
+
+[52:06] They will receive goats via FedEx, and home delivery is available for New York City customers. In addition to the goat, these packages will also include recipes and a DVD featuring interviews with the farmers, processors, and chefs demonstrating how to break down and cook goat. Again, for more information on No Goat Left Behind, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com or call Aaron Fairbanks at 718-389-0985. The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market. Open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday and 10 to 6 on Sundays.
+
+[52:49] The Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare approved and certified humane raising standards. Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 from the back of Roberta's Pizza. We in Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:35] Here today in the studio, of course, with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. As always. Hello, Nastasha. Hi. She's doing something or other on the computer, I don't know.
+
+[0:42] Probably having to do with the event we're doing for 300 people tonight. Is that true or false? No, for Thursday. For Thursday's uh Museum of Food and Drink event, which I believe is sold out, but if you know someone, you can get tickets. I.
+
+[0:52] If you beg and plead, you can get tickets. Although we are theoretically sold out. Uh is that true or false? Yeah, that's true. It's true.
+
+[0:59] So I shouldn't even talk about it. Uh see that we're we're at that point now, huh? Yeah. What's a lot? Over a thousand.
+
+[1:07] Oh, Jesus. Oh my god. Anyway, uh, you have to email Nastasha for that kind of uh for that kind of information. You know, go on the blog, whatnot. Anyway, call in all of your questions, cooking or uh uncooking related, I guess, or technical or not.
+
+[1:20] Two 718497. You just wrote this wrong. She's trying to fool me. I happen to know that the last uh the last four starts with two. Yeah.
+
+[1:28] So you kind of know the phone number. He pretends. I know I kind of know it. I know when it's wrong. I see when I look, it's like spelling.
+
+[1:35] And when I see it, I know that because isn't spelled that way, but just spelling it out isn't the same. You know what I mean? Call in all of your questions to 718 497, 2128. That's 718 497-2128. Anyway, today's uh show is brought to you by uh again, Chris Anderson from the Monitors Pantry.
+
+[1:53] Good news for all of you uh looking to get ingredients people out there. He was able to get his hands on some Pectanex SPL. The Miracle Enzyme, which we use for French fries, recipe on the blog, www.cooking issues.com. Uh enzymatic peeling of uh fruits to get really amazing peels with no albedo. That's the white crap, or to do auto supreming.
+
+[2:14] Uh we also use it for clarification. It'll self-clarify things like apple juice, but you need a center for us to do stuff like strawberry puree. Although I have a way around that. Uh I haven't posted about this yet, although I will because I found out that I'm still way behind on my contractually obliged uh posts per week. And uh they're trying to ship me off to do a demo for this school, and they won't pay my uh obligatory day rate because they say I'm behind.
+
+[2:35] So I'm gonna have to now go ahead and do all those things so that I can then uh stuff it in the appropriate people's faces. Anyway, true or false. Yes. True? I know they're listening.
+
+[2:44] Oh yeah, come on, please. Anyway, uh I'm gonna read uh the thing straight up, right? So you get today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying Monitus ingredients for the home cook. Whether you were looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask.
+
+[3:01] Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fan of cooking issues that order during today's show, we'll get oh wait, of transglutaminase again they're running? All right. They're running the Pectanex.
+
+[3:15] Yeah, but what's the number on the I have there? I'll look it up on my thing. But apparently they're still running the transglutaminate special. So, fans of the show called What? No, it's a good one.
+
+[3:23] Well, Jack just handed me the thing. Well, see whether you get it. See whether you get it. Try to get some free some free crap. Try to get transglutaminates for free.
+
+[3:29] They said in the promo case of the CI 53. Yeah, but CI 53 is the meat glue. Uh you'll get pectin's for free. Listen with free domestic shipping. It's just like a drug dealer.
+
+[3:39] They give you the free first sample. No, this is just free domestic shipping on pectanex. Oh, free domestic shipping on pectin. For those people that call in during today's show, you will get, if you enter CI 55, I'm sure he'll uh have it maybe for a whole week. I don't know.
+
+[3:53] Uh if you enter it, you will get free domestic shipping on Pectanex SPL, the ultra enzyme. Anyway, oh I like that. I like the reverb on that. That was good, Jack. Nice.
+
+[4:02] Uh anyway. Uh oh, and it says maybe you could talk briefly about how you use Pectanex for the benefit of the audience, but it looks like I already did that. Yes. Anyway, uh, I'm very happy that someone is finally carrying this thing, and that uh, you know, who's a real person that ships stuff out, and it's not us just shipping the stuff out of the school because that was a pain in the butt. Yeah.
+
+[4:19] You hated that. Yes. A lot, a lot. Yes. Anyway.
+
+[4:23] Okay. Uh, first question comes in from longtime questionnaire Colin. Uh first a response to uh what we said, because last week he had suggested maybe you could use an ultrasonic uh homogenizer, which is a quite a violent tool as a toothbrush. Uh and he says, Well, listen, I know that you're not supposed to sh stick your teeth on it and rattle your brains into little bits. I don't have his actual comment here copied, but he still thinks maybe it would be fun.
+
+[4:48] Uh I say again, do not attempt. Do not attempt, Colin. But for his other question, um uh going back to the museum uh food and drink fundraiser that we had a uh back in what that was it, May? March. March.
+
+[5:01] Back in March. Um Wiley did a dish. I gave Wiley caveman food. Every chef had a theme that they had to do historical or fun, like you know, Wiley had caveman and Nils had uh what do you have? Food as uh no, he had uh diet, fad diets.
+
+[5:16] Anyway, so for caveman food, Wiley did an amazing looking dish that looked like it was just a split bone. It was done with high-tech stuff actually, but it looked like twigs and branches and bones, looked very caveman, it was awesome. And one of the things he did with that looked like little twigs was Anoki mushrooms that he had dried and turned to these twigs. I take that's actually the only thing I got to taste off that dish, and it was good. I'm sure Nastasha had a whole one.
+
+[5:36] I had no food that day. Even you had no food, Nastasha? Now, just to let you know how hard Nastasha was working, Nastasha would stab a co-worker in the ear and let every piece of food you were cooking burn uh rather than give up the attempt the possibility of taking any morsel of food, even your mise en plus that you need for the dish. So it just goes to show how dedicated she is to the museum that she did not try that dish. Anyway, um uh I I I like I said I had just the Anoki mushrooms and they were good.
+
+[6:04] So Colin writes in when he made the twigs for his caveman dish. Did he use fresh Anoki, then season or dehydrate them, or did he use Anoki he bought pre-dried? Come on, Collins. Wiley, of course he bought fresh Anoki, season them and dry them. Come on.
+
+[6:19] Come on. They were fresh, uh, which is what I recommend you do. And his other question is uh what other than marketing in gold dust makes Quantro's spherification kit different? Any idea what their formula was? Okay, for those of you that don't know, spherification is turning uh fluids into tiny balls made popular by Ferron Adrias.
+
+[6:36] It was an industrial thing to make flaked fake blueberries and X, Y, and Z for a long time. Typically uses sodium alginate, which is a gel that uh is you know has a lot of good properties from a from a structural point of view and a lot of bad properties from a taste point of view, because it's it's a taste thief. Although I do like the balls when they're properly made, but it's hard. Anyway, so Quantro thought they were gonna get into what some people call molecular mixology, a term I detest and uh abhor because it sounds gross and I think it's dumb. And uh they made a kit that will teach uh basically anyone, any regular bar person to uh make little balls out of Quantro and then add quantal balls to dishes, and I believe they mixed some gold dust in to make shimmery quantro, shiny tiny balls.
+
+[7:20] I think that's what it was, shiny tiny balls. I'm not sure what they added to the kit, whether it was a mag stir unit or something like that, but I believe that they were just using I hope they were using calcium gluconate and not calcium lactate, I mean uh calcium uh chloride as their uh salt, because it's basically uh alginate plus calcium equals uh equals you know, alginate plus calcium equals a gel. So you make a an al you make an alginate uh mixture with your quantro, you drip it, dip it into the calcium, and boom, she sets. Um pretty sure that's what they were doing. I don't think they were doing reverse verification because it's more difficult and they were trying to train people to do it who had no training with hydrocolloids.
+
+[7:53] So I believe that it is just marketing gold dust, alginate, and calcium, hopefully calcium lactate gluconate because it's the least flavorless of the thing. And I believe a scale. You get a scale so you can measure this stuff out. You ever see them do that with Nastasha? No.
+
+[8:06] I've never had a quantro tiny ball cocktail, but you know, I'm willing I'm willing to try one. Although I have my doubts about the tiny ball phenomenon in general. What about you? You like tiny balls? Oh, fresh balls came.
+
+[8:21] Fresh what? Fresh balls came. Fresh oh, Nastasha ordered for her boyfriend uh the product fresh balls, which cooks across the world apparently tell me is much, much better than putting like uh cornstarch or whatever else you're gonna put into your pants to keep yourself uh fresh during service. Nastasha looks horrified. Well, Nastasha brought it up.
+
+[8:42] I mean, I have to say I was not gonna mention this at all. Tiny balls is an alginate food product that is absolutely uh wholesome and family oriented. All right then. Yeah. And you know, I don't want anyone writing or calling in saying that I suddenly took the show to a bad place when I believe it was Nastasha who brought it up.
+
+[9:04] And then, you know, you're not allowed to bring up an inside thing to our viewers without me explaining what's going on. It's unfair to the listeners. Let's move on. Moving on. Uh Alvin writes in about centrifuges.
+
+[9:16] Okay. Uh, because I just did a post on centrifuges. Okay, now I want a centrifuge. Actually, I wanted one before, ever since I had corn butter at Mirvold's lab in Bellevue, Washington. That would be Nathan Mirvold of Monitors Pantry.
+
+[9:26] Uh, what slash should I buy? Where to look? Perhaps eBay. I think you mentioned once on the radio show about finding one super cheap because of a misspelled auction. It's one of my favorite things of all time.
+
+[9:35] I got a centrifuge for almost nothing because they spelled it like what'd they spell it? Like centr centrafuge or something. Something wrong. I forget. Centerfuge.
+
+[9:43] Something something crazy. Uh finding one super cheap because of a misspelled auction. The approximate cost, I got it for under a hundred bucks plus shipping. Sick. Awesome.
+
+[9:52] Thing works great, by the way. Don't be, you know, not to make you jealous or anything. Works great. Uh please answer on the radio show because I listen to the podcast religiously. By the way, will you guys be at the Star Chefs ICC, uh, which is the International Chefs Congress, not to be confused with the renaming of the French Culinaries building, the International Culinary Center, although that is confusing, right?
+
+[10:13] Confusing. Do you find it confusing? Anyway, anyway. Uh uh, well, uh, Alvin, we will not be there as participants this year. We don't have to work it.
+
+[10:23] We just get to show up. Boo! Yuck every year. I've never seen any of the demos because we're working the whole time, right, Nastasha? You're right.
+
+[10:31] Anyway, this time uh I'll be hanging out and uh getting liquored up at the uh whoever the wine and beer sponsors are. I'll be going to the seminars given by my bartender friends and watching chef's demo and learning stuff like a normal human instead of uh running around like a chicken with my head cut off. Right? Right. Should be fun.
+
+[10:44] Anyway, okay, now to his question. Okay, you want a four or sometimes three. You want a three to four liter uh bench top centrifuge. If you can find one, refrigeration is not necessary, but refrigeration is helpful. If you're only gonna run one or two batches, it doesn't matter.
+
+[11:07] But when you're running a thing all the time uh and you don't have time necessarily to really chill your products down, they can heat up somewhat uh somewhat drastically in uh in a centrifuge because of all the friction of the thing spinning around. You want to make sure uh what you do is you you look up whatever rotor you're using, and you uh you can look it up on the internet. There's all sorts of calculators to help you figure out how many times the force of gravity uh any particular rotor is generating at a particular number of revolutions per minute, and you can look it up. You want to get about four thousand G's to be able to get the best benefit out of it, including all the stuff you do with enzymes and things like that. You're gonna want to get yourself some Pectan X SPL, of course, uh so that you can just clarify everything like a mamma jamma.
+
+[11:49] Now, the reason I recommend four liters is because a four-liter, you're really spinning about three liters at a time, and I find that it really is a convenient size because if you have less product, you can spin two buckets instead of one. We've sometimes even spun one bucket of product, and then the other bucket just had uh like sugar in it as a weight to keep it weighted down. And it's just a really good size. We can put a lot of product through it. It's you know, pretty economical to time wise to run.
+
+[12:15] So I really, really like it. Uh you could maybe get a three-liter fuge. Um, I didn't enjoy using my one that only had uh 500 by six. It's like a liter and a half or something like that. What is it?
+
+[12:27] What is five hundred by six? That's three liters, but it didn't seem like it did three liters in those little bottles. Yeah. Maybe it was 250 by 5. Anyway, it was like a liter and a half fuge.
+
+[12:29] And I didn't really like it. I had to spin it so many times to get enough product to work. You know what I mean? And plus you need to have a little bit of air at the top anyway, so you end up losing. I would get a three to four-liter uh bench top centrifuge.
+
+[12:47] Um if you apparently, someone told me at the uh class I taught last weekend that uh the price has gone up substantially on eBay since we've been screaming loud and long that everyone needs to buy one. Um and so I don't know whether my particular model, the Zhuan, uh, you know, C whatever it is, C C 12, C14, is uh still a good deal, but you should be able to get one for about a thousand bucks in good working order, 1200 bucks in good working order. I never paid more than 200 for mine, but I'm willing to wait around and wait for something broken and fix it. Brand spanking new, they're eight grand. Uh and so that should give you a uh that should give you an idea.
+
+[13:22] Is that a good good answer, Stas? Yes. All right. Now, let's go to our first commercial break. And while we're doing that, pick up your phones and download your questions to 718 497 2128.
+
+[13:30] That's 718497-2128. We're having a party. Listen to the music. On the radio. The cokes are in the ice box.
+
+[13:59] Pop holes on the table. Me and my baby. We're out here on the floor. Some mister Mr. Easy.
+
+[14:14] Keep those place. Cause I'm a haven. Such a good time. Dancing with my baby. Just to give you an idea what kind of person Nustache is.
+
+[14:27] She wanted to cut the song off before you said dancing with my baby. No soul. No soul on that lady. Right? I guess?
+
+[14:35] Yeah, we're getting some nods from the from the room over there. Then don't come in and ask it for a ready, Jack. Well, he knows not to cut it off before he says dancing with my baby. Come on. Please.
+
+[14:48] Come on. Anyway. And you know what's funny? Nastashi used to work for MTV and like loves bands, loves going to C bands, kind of. Doesn't like to be in the audience, likes to be side stage.
+
+[14:58] And yet she, like, an actual song comes on, couldn't care less. Anyway. It's not true when it comes to Holland Outs. No, it's true. Hall of Notes.
+
+[15:07] If you would cut, if you would cut off Man Eater at a bad time, she would like all of us would be dead. Because that's her theme song. Oh wow. Boom. Alright.
+
+[15:15] So uh Johnny writes in with lots of questions. Uh I really enjoyed the discussion last week about which br uh blender brand to purchase and Daya's promotion of induction cooktops. Do you guys have an opinion about brands for induction burners? I own a couple of cooktechs. I've been happy with them, but I'm wondering if there are others that I should look into.
+
+[15:31] Unfortunately, uh Johnny, I don't have enough experience. Cook tech. I know a lot of people that use cooktex. Um they're out of Illinois. I believe, you know, they're a U.S.
+
+[15:40] brand, and so most people build them in. I haven't heard a lot of horror stories about CookTex versus other induction units in a commercial environment, which I'm assuming you're in a commercial environment because most people who use cooktex are in commercial uh environments. Um the main problem with inductions early on was everyone wanted the holy grail, which is induction units over a an oven, induction range over an oven. And no one, I don't care whether it was French companies or cook tech or whomever, uh, no one made induction units that simp that wouldn't burn out when they were put over an oven because um they just you know the the the electronics weren't cooled effectively enough and they would always just burn out, and that was what happened. That was the last time I checked into that was maybe four or five years ago.
+
+[16:22] So I'm hoping that they've solved that problem, although I don't know if they have or not. The other problem I've seen with with uh induction units, uh cooktop and cook tech and otherwise is just shattering of uh people like putting a heavy pot on on something in a in a commercial environment or dropping a uh you know, dropping a pan down on it and boom, they shatter. Uh and so those are the two things that uh uh I know had always been the Achilles heel, not of cooktex in particular, but of all of these units. So I'm hoping that some of those uh problems will change. I think when you looking into uh when you're looking into uh induction units, one of the interesting things is you can configure them kind of h however you want.
+
+[16:57] And so you can buy dual units that are either side by side or front back. Uh I thought the front back units were pretty cool because you could treat you could stack them like a regular range, which is awesome, and you could just make it any number of burners you want, but the guys at Somme who have one have a problem because they won't accept a big stock pot. So just figure out what you want, and uh I think CookTech is a fine brand to go with. I'm gonna get back to some of Johnny's questions in a minute because we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[17:22] Hi Dave. Uh this is Gary from New York. Um I have a question about uh tinctures. Um and basically, I was wondering if the rapid and fusion technique that you talk about on the blog, is there a way to uh do tinctures with that? So you know, you know, you don't have to wait six weeks for seven tincture or whatever.
+
+[17:42] Okay. Well, so so here's my feeling on that. So um the rate of infusion, what kind of proof of alcohol are you using? Very, very, very high? Well, since I'm in New York, they can't get uh grain alcohol, but I guess the highest thing I know I can get is like solely 100 or you know, something like that.
+
+[17:58] You can do 151 is the highest proof you can get here, and they sell a uh I saw one that was slightly higher that was illegal, but you can get 151 here. Um you can't get uh you can't get higher than 151. So, but you you can go to New Jersey or Connecticut and get it and get the uh ever clear regular ever clear. Uh it tastes bad, regular ever clear. You could try to source uh some like lab or perfume grade, and if you convince someone that you're a business, you can get uh lab grade 200 proof, which is sweet.
+
+[18:29] Uh don't get too hard, get the 195 USP lab grade. It's really pure, it's awesome stuff. Um and if you find it on sale, it's not that that expensive. Okay. But back to your question.
+
+[18:40] Um I think that the the flavors you get are not going to be exactly the same. If you want a if you want it to taste like an old school tincture, then you're probably gonna need to make an old school tincture. Will you accelerate the infusion by doing rapid infusion? Yes, a hundred percent. But the the exact ratios of uh f you know, different compound compounds that are extracted under the different uh kind of time and pressure regimes might not be exactly identical.
+
+[19:10] Maybe it's gonna be better, maybe it's better. Maybe it's worse, maybe it's just different. I think you have to test it. So if you've made a particular tincture before, right, you can make one using the rapid infusion technique and and and I think have a good result, but it might be different. Another thing is is that when I have rapid, right?
+
+[19:27] I'm typically doing rapid stuff in the one to five minute range. Now I there've been people who have tested uh trying to do more traditional tasting like several week tinctures by keeping the stuff under pressure on the order of eight hours or overnight or one day and then venting the vessel. And I think people have had some good luck doing that, and that might taste closer to a traditional tincture because you're basically the amount of time it would take the liquor to percolate through and get an intimate contact and kind of displace the air that's inside of uh some of the products that you're steeping would be uh, you know, basically you get through that part of it right away. And then it's just uh it's just the you know, the the the marrying once it's together and then p you know, shooting it out that you get. So that might be another way to uh to do it if you if you want to give that a shot.
+
+[20:18] Yeah, I will. Thank you, Dave. Hey, no problem. Thanks for calling in. I love questions on infusions and tinctures, right, Sas?
+
+[20:23] Yeah. Uh let me see if I can get my iPad to find Oh, I have another caller. Caller, you were on the air. Hi. Uh hi, Dave.
+
+[20:31] I have a question. If I so a lot of recipes call for chicken or vegetable broth. Um, and if I don't have any in my apartment and I can't really like run out and get any, what can I do or what can I use instead of that? Huh. But you want it to taste like that?
+
+[20:47] Well, I mean, I guess so. I I guess it's not so much like if I'm making like a barley or something and I know that it would might be too bland without the chicken or vegetable broth. Yeah. Uh I mean and you just can't keep it in stock because you forget. Right.
+
+[21:01] So it's like it's always that one thing that you have in your kitchen and you for and you forget to buy it until you don't have it. Yeah, okay. Now listen, don't don't tell anyone who's not listening to this, but there that like uh there's whole groups of people who you otherwise respect in Europe who keep uh who use on a regular basis like Brodo, broth, bullion cubes. Yeah. And there are higher quality ones than uh than the ones that we normally get in the US, even made by the companies that make the same ones in the US because it's more of a respected product in certain places we show they shall remain nameless, Italy.
+
+[21:36] Uh and and so in other countries, like these uh broth cubes, uh Broto they call them, right? Cubes, what do they call them? Yeah. They you know they are a they are considered a valid ingredient. So what I would do is is if you're if your buddies are gonna bother you about it, hide it in the back of your pantry.
+
+[21:53] If not, say like, you know, who's shove that stick up your butt? This is a valid ingredient, stop being so provincial and look at the world. Uh and then uh and then what you do is you just have that there. Use your normal stock when you have it, and then have one of those sitting around just in case all hell breaks loose and you don't have it, right? Okay.
+
+[22:09] That's that sounds great. But you're gonna have to remember you're gonna have to change the amount of salt that you have in your recipe. So you're gonna want to make sure that there's no pre-salting going on. Okay, with the with the bullion cube. Yeah, and the other thing I would recommend, and this is another good one, is stock freezes almost indefinitely.
+
+[22:23] So what I tend to do when I'm doing a bunch of uh do you have a pressure cooker? I don't. Okay, well buy a pressure cooker. Anyway. Okay.
+
+[22:33] Like whenever you're getting chickens, I tend to buy whole chickens and then I break them down. Uh and then I just uh I throw the uh I throw all of the bones and and you know, you know, backs and necks and stuff into uh into zips and throw them in the freezer. And then after I've accumulated, you know, like four or f four chickens worth, I just I th throw the bones in the in the pressure cooker and just make a quick white stock. Don't even bother I mean like it's better if you roast everything, but don't even bother, just throw it in with some veg clamp it and like 20 minutes later you know you have uh a passable stock you can freeze into cubes and then you just have so you do you have three layers now you have some stuff frozen in in and you freeze them in ice cube trays and then put them in zips and and then you just throw individual cubes of frozen in and they melt relatively quickly. You don't want to freeze big core containers of it because then you have to thaw a whole core container out.
+
+[23:20] Yeah. Yeah. And so now you have three layers that are going to protect you. Yeah wow that's that was really great. Thanks so much.
+
+[23:27] I never thought about the ice cube idea that's that's really cool though. Well I forget who I stole that from back in the probably from Jacques Popin or Julia Child, someone back in you know way back in the day. That's okay I won't tell anybody I'll say it's Dave Arnold's idea. Alright cool thanks very much thanks for calling in all right so now back to Johnny's list of questions. He writes in are there any det is there any detailed information on changing the oil in a vacuum sealer.
+
+[23:49] Commercial vacuum machines another indication that Johnny's in a commercial kitchen commercial vacuum machines use uh vacuum oil and uh that that's how they seal how they get a good seal on them. And uh it's one of the reasons why they're much better than a food save or any sort of home machine because they have a much higher grade pump. That said occasionally you have to change the oil. You don't have to actually change the oil very often the oil gets contaminated with water every time you vacuum something with water in it. And you uh clean it typically just by heating the pump up by running it letting air go through it it boils the water out and makes the oil clear again.
+
+[24:19] But when the time comes to change it, you change it much like you change a car. What you just uh you run the vacuum pump to get the uh the what's it called the pump hot so that the oil is uh a little runnier right and then typically it depends on the machine, but you might have to undo a couple of bolts and move the pump out. It's just attached by hoses and and pipes and stuff. You move it out a little bit. There's typically a uh a uh filling port at the top and one on the side, and you drain it just like a car.
+
+[24:43] If it would have any grit in it, you should look at the oil and make sure it had no grit in it. If it had grit, seal it, pour some fresh oil in, run it vacuum oil. You can get it any industrial supply place like McMaster.com or Granger or uh MSC direct and uh run it with some fresh oil, drain that again, fill it with fresh oil. It doesn't take much. Usually these things take under a quart.
+
+[25:04] Uh under a quart. Anyway, and uh that's it. It's fairly fairly simple. Um lastly, uh Johnny wants to know uh he was listening to the Nathan Mirvold episode that we had uh and and particularly the discussion on Confi, uh where we said where Nathan basically said that you could steam a duck, and it's the same thing as doing a confie. And uh and he's wondering how steaming can produce the same results as cooking in fat.
+
+[25:28] He guessed that he just assumed that the fat had some beneficial effect on flavoring. Now that's one of the more controversial things that uh Mirvold, Young, uh, you know, and everyone uh you know, Max were saying is that um confie, the fat actually doesn't make uh any difference, and that what it was is fat is a very gentle way to cook something in a liquid that's not a poaching liquid, right? So when you when you poach something in water, you're ch you're basically you're you know, fluids are exchanging, you're be getting more of a poached duck uh or a braised duck than you are a confid duck. But since the fat is considered a dry cooking medium and it doesn't really add moisture or remove moisture from the or water soluble stuff from the duck, it it's a way of doing a gentle low temperature cooking back in the day before there was any sort of low temperature, right? And if you roasted it in an oven without the fat, you get much more uh evaporation loss off of the duck, so you'd end up with a much much drier duck.
+
+[26:23] So it's a way to protect and cook the duck. Uh, but the but Mirval's thing is that basically it doesn't actually add uh any appreciable flavor to the duck at all. I don't know. I've never run the side by side test. The only way to do this is to do one in a combi oven set on steam at 85 Celsius or something like that, uh, and uh do another one uh traditionally comfy or even in a bag sous vide comfy.
+
+[26:48] Although you shouldn't do it in a bag because nothing can evaporate off in the bag. So you should do it basically traditional in fat in the six here's what you should do. You should get one combi oven, run one in a pan uh just steamed, and the other one in the fat in the same cavity at the same time, and for the same exact length of time, same temperature regime, and see which one comes out better or if there's any difference. I'm assuming, knowing those guys that they did that and they saw that there wasn't any difference. So I'm gonna have to say that the way that they were doing it, it didn't make much of a difference.
+
+[27:17] What do you think it does? Yes, all right. And apparently that wasn't the last question because he says sorry for all the questions, but he has one last question. He does a lot of low temperature cooking, but his partner doesn't like it because she's worried about the harmful effects of cooking things in plastic. I showed her manufacturer's recommendations in that I cook things under the temperature that they recommend, but she points out that plastics have continued to have increased negative effects that get revealed after new introductions and after new, you know, whatever research that comes out, and not enough uh is known to show it is safe.
+
+[27:43] Is she worrying too much or is it a valid concern? It's very interesting. Uh, because I mean the main problem is you either trust that it's safe or you don't trust that it's safe. You can't prove that something is safe other than saying, you know, we've used X, Y, and Z for a long time, there doesn't appear to be any negative effects. Now the fact of the matter is that a lot of these plastics haven't been around super duper long in food processing things, and there's all sorts of problems that we're having these days.
+
+[28:12] And some people point to things like plastics, but they also point to things like high fructose corners, they point to a lot of things. So it's very difficult to know, and it's almost impossible to prove that something doesn't have an effect unless it's by centuries of use. You know, it's very, very, very difficult. I will say this. Um I am fairly certain that there are materials that leach from plastics into food when you're cooking.
+
+[28:37] The question is, are those and depends on the plastic, of course. The question is, are those things harmful? They the reverse happens too. Uh things in your food leach into the plastics, which is why plastics sometimes take on smells and can't be cleaned properly. It's mainly with fat-soluble things because the fat uh you know fatty things tend to uh you know have a a crosstalk with your plastics more often, which is why if you use a crappy plastic wrap that has a smell and you wrap a fatty cheese in it, the outside of the cheese tastes terrible.
+
+[29:05] You've had that happen, right, Stas. It's disgusting, right? It's because the cheese is absorbing plasticky flavors uh and and and and vice versa. So you want to you want to be careful. Now I would stay away from uh certain things that have i if you for instance if you're worried about BPA, bisphenol A, right?
+
+[29:23] Polycarbonate uh has uh you know, has it, right? We don't wrap the food in polycarbonate, but uh, we use polycarbonate in drinking vessels all the time. So if you're worried about bisphenol A, you stay away from that. I would stay away from cooking with PVC because it has lots of stuff in it, including uh, you know, plasticizers and phthalates and all sorts of things. So and and and but luckily most plastic wraps aren't made of that.
+
+[29:45] Most plastic wraps nowadays are made of polyethylene. Uh and polyethylene usually doesn't have plasticizers, which are the things that are, you know, people most normally blame for a lot of the problems in uh plastics these days. But they, you know, they do have things in them, uh, you know, other things like ethyl vinyl acetate and polybutine that are added to make things cling better. They have solvents in them that are used to uh, you know, they're in the process of making them that are then flashed off. And are there the residual things like that in?
+
+[30:13] Sure, there are. I mean, I have but have there ever been shown to be any problem with them? Not not that I know of, but it's very difficult. I feel confident using um polyethylene at low temperatures. Um but it's very it's very hard to it's very hard to say.
+
+[30:29] Um the you know, the a lot of the bags have uh you know the the bags that we use, uh cooking bags have nylon, which is also relatively uh you know considered inert and uh you know and you know not harmful in any way. So what do you think, Nastasha? What's the what's the upshot of that? There is no upshot, right? No.
+
+[30:46] Have I have I helped at all? Or I just think you I think it helps. I don't know. Here's some things. You can also cook in glass jars in a pressure cooker.
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+[30:53] You can cook in fat directly without cooking in um without cooking in in bags at all. Another thing is people have experimented making kind of uh foil pouches to uh cook things in um low temperature. Uh, you know, and I think there's gonna be more and you know, more and more people are gonna be interested, but you could just do low temperature directly in stock, directly in fat, uh in uh glass, packed in glass, uh in uh like I say, foil, though I haven't done that many experiments with it. So you there's all alternatives you can use if you're worried of for certain dishes if you're worried about the plastic. Yes?
+
+[31:28] Yes. Okay. Um Chris, uh, should we take one more break? Yeah. Okay, one more commercial break.
+
+[31:34] Call on all your questions too. 7184972128. That's 718497218. Too much love, I'll the man of sleep. You brought my will.
+
+[31:44] Good and listen to Gray. It's a sweet ball to fire. You came alone. Move me, honey. I'll change my mind.
+
+[31:57] Good and listen. It's a sweet ball to fire. Give him a baby. Oh, bye Ada. I will do love you like a lover should.
+
+[32:13] Oh, you're fine. So kind. And let's remember that if it's Jerry Lewis, he's talking about a 15-year-old. That's not, but I'm thinking, but all I can think of is Jerry Lewis singing that to like a 15-year-old. Oh man.
+
+[32:32] I had to take it to a bad place, right? Yeah. But I listen, I like his music, but don't you think about that? When you see like when you have a musician that, you know, has like a crazy, and look, I respect him greatly as a musician, but when you think of someone who has a crazy foible like that, don't you have to think about it every time you hear the music? Wasn't it his cousin too?
+
+[32:51] Look, now you're just making fun of the South. I don't appreciate that. I'm pretty sure that. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[32:58] Anyway. Uh Chris Beer, we're gonna get in trouble on this one. Like, you know, but with the fresh balls and this one, it's bad. It's been a bad day. Anyway, uh, Chris Beer writes in about ISI infusions.
+
+[33:08] Hi, David Nastash, I have a cocktail question for you. I've been doing a lot of ISI infusions and fat washing, and I have a question about rancidity. Even though I freeze and strain my fat-washed alcohol, is there some residual fat that can go rancid over a period of time? I err on the side of caution and keep it in the freezer, taking out as needed, and let it come to room temperature for proper dilution. Also, I've infused nuts into alcohol and an ISI.
+
+[33:28] Is there any nut oil that would seep out and go rancid at room temperature? I don't usually keep ISI infused alcohol in the freezer. My cocktail obsession didn't start until I took your hydrocholide class uh last November. Thanks for the enlightenment, Chris Beer. Well, thank you for the compliment.
+
+[33:40] That's very nice. Um okay, look, uh when you're fat washing, a certain small amount of the fat is soluble in the alcohol, and that's frankly where some of that taste is coming from. Now, uh as to whether or not it goes rancid, if you're worried about rancidity, one thing you can add is a little bit of vitamin E, which is kind of a uh fat, you know, fat soluble uh antioxidant that you can add to try and prevent rancidity. Uh I don't know, can you just buy that in the store? Vitamin E.
+
+[34:06] Can you just buy vitamin E in the store? Yeah? All right. You can just go buy it. Tocofurol.
+
+[34:10] Um, but I called up, I couldn't get in touch with Don Lee, but I was trying to get him and John Darragon, who were two of the guys at PDT who used to blast out uh their famous uh Benton's uh bacon bourbon uh fat washed uh drink for their bacon bourbon fat washed thing that was hugely popular at PDT, I don't know, what, four or five years ago, something like that, four years ago? Whenever it was, three, four years ago. And so I said to John, here's the here's the quote. John, did you ever have uh rancidity problems with fat washing? And then he writes back, he wrote, We didn't have the product around that long.
+
+[34:43] I was like, all right, all right. Have you ever heard about the problem? Because I have a radio question about it. He says, No, but then again, putting bacon sticks in a bottle of vodka, people putting bacon sticks in a bottle of vodka are probably experiencing it uh and won't know it because I don't know, because they're drinking too much bacon in vodka or something. He said something unprintable, so I can't print it.
+
+[34:59] But he basically says is that he he he there maybe there's some rancidity happening, but he hasn't noticed it, and people who are like doing a lot of bacon in vodka probably don't notice uh either. Uh he also says uh he thinks it uh depends on the shelf life of the fat. Someone doing a lobster fat wash will have much less stable shelf product than a duck fat or bacon fat. Would be interesting to see if there's a relation to proof of spirit versus stability of product. I agree, John, it would be an interesting thing to look up.
+
+[35:24] Uh I mean to test. I don't know. I mean, the one thing we do with fat a lot in the ISI is uh cocoa nibs. And of course, you know, cocoa butter is gonna get uh dissolved in there, but cocoa butter is famously stable against oxidation. You know, that's why chocolate lasts so long.
+
+[35:39] I mean, that that you know, it loses its temper, but it doesn't go rancid. Do you know what I mean? But you know, uh Evan has done a lot of butter uh fat washing. I wonder whether it goes rancid. I mean, certain things do go bad when they're infused.
+
+[35:50] Uh you know, we remember did you ever have this uh the hops one? It got all skunked. Nasty. She was 13 and his first cousin. You gotta speak more into the microphones.
+
+[36:00] She was 13 and his first cousin, but his management all insisted she was 15. Oh, well, see, just like me to believe the management story. Just like you. You know, just too trusting. Company man, yeah.
+
+[36:13] Uh Matthew writes in on sauerkraut and slow roasting. Uh hey, Nasta, I hope all is well with you and Dave. I had a question. I was hoping you could answer them when you had time. I heard Dave mentioned that lactic acid contributes to sauerkraut type flavors.
+
+[36:24] In fact, it's the acid that you get from the lactic acid bacteria making sauerkraut. And you can distinguish uh uh, you know, uh a pickle, you know, an actual lactic acid back pickle from a vinegar pickle based on the lactic acid. Uh I'm working on a bratwurst sandwich for my business, sounds good, that I plan to top with pickled purple cabbage. Would it be possible to incorporate a small quantity of lactic acid into my pickle cabbage to suggest a sauerkraut type flavor without actually going through the fermentation product process? Does this make sense and is it a good idea?
+
+[36:51] Well, I don't know. It's interesting. I've never had uh really a mix of lactic and vinegar, like a semi-vinegar lactic. I mean, maybe I have, but I haven't I haven't made it myself, so I don't know. Look, it doesn't harm you at all to call up Terra Spice or Modernus Pantry.
+
+[37:05] Does Modernus Pantry carry that? I have no idea. Anyway, call them up. Get yourself a bag of lactic acid. It's not that expensive.
+
+[37:11] It's powder form. I used to get liquid form, but it's a pain to deal with. Don't get that. Just get the powder form because it stays around forever. And sprinkle it in, and you know, it really does add, it depends on how you think about it.
+
+[37:21] Sometimes people think of it like cured sausage, sometimes people think of it like sauerkraut, depends on what it's added to. I'm assuming if you add it to cabbage, it's going to taste like sauerkraut. Uh, you know, I happen to really love sauerkraut, and so uh my feeling, not having done side-by-side taste tests, is you're not going to get the same sort of complex, delicious flavors uh from a quick pickle that you are from an actual fermentation that produces lactic acid bacteria. On the other hand, quick pickles can just be fresh and delicious tasting, and there's no reason why they can't have a lactic acid flavor as well as a vinegar flavor, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[37:57] So, you know, uh, you know, I don't believe in things necessarily uh using them just as shortcuts, but I definitely believe in doing something that's going to make it more delicious, and so if it's a delicious product that you stand behind, then I think it's a good idea. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh along the same veins, does shocking slow roasted or braised meats in an ice bath affect the reabsorption of juices into the meat?
+
+[38:19] I often slowly braise slabs of bacon or other meats wrapped in plastic and foil in the oven at temperatures between 200 and 250 Fahrenheit. I was under the impression that during the cooling process, they reabsorb some juices that may have secreted during the cooking. It would speed things up for me to be able to plunge them into an ice bath after brazing in order to chill them quickly. What mur worries me is if this would affect the overall outcome of the product in terms of juiciness. It absolutely will.
+
+[38:41] Absolutely will. This is one of the things that we do in the uh sous vide class every time we run it is we show the effect of cooling on uh pieces of meat if they're too rapidly cooled. And this goes back to something I learned maybe set six, seven, seven years ago from Bruno Gousseau, kind of one of the grandfathers of uh you know low temperature cooking, is that uh you want to cool meats relatively slowly in order to have them reabsorb uh juices properly, and then once they get uh much below about 50 degrees Celsius, they stopped reabsorbing juices. And so you want to ramp the temperature from cooking down relatively slowly. Now, I'll tell you what he recommends.
+
+[39:20] Bruno Gousseau recommends, and we've done side by side well, I'll tell you what he recommends. He recommends you take a product out of your uh your cooking bath and you just leave it in the on the counter, in air on the counter for let's say it's a thick product, like you're talking, like a bacon slab, 20 minutes. Then throw it into tap water for 20 minutes because the air is not a very good conductor, it's gonna heat it, cool it relatively slowly. Tap room temperature tap water, much better conductor is going to start dropping it down a little more rapidly. After that 20, throw it in ice, and it will get all the way down in a relatively quick and safe amount of time without having to worry about uh, you know, whether it's going to be chilled properly or not.
+
+[39:56] That's what Bruno Gusseau recommends, and we've tested uh various regimes from throwing it directly in ice, like you recommend uh or not you recommend that you ask about, and then versus just going uh on the counter for 20 minutes and then in ice first versus the full gousot uh on the counter, then in water, then in ice. And uh there's not that much of a difference between the full gousot and just leaving it on the counter for 20 minutes and then throwing it in ice. So if you have to omit that step, you can, but there is a marginal difference, and his method is marginally better. Fair? Mm-hmm.
+
+[40:28] Fair. The full gousot. Okay. Uh I also have a small sandwich business, he writes. I would like to make a cheese sauce to serve over a braised beef sandwich.
+
+[40:36] I'm looking for a more temperature stable solution than any traditional Mornay sauce. For those of you out there who don't not hip to it, Mornay is basically a bechamel. So you take a roux, like a flour and uh butter, you cook it, you uh add milk. Typically they would scald the milk beforehand, but I don't think it's really necessary because milk that we use has been pasteurized, right? Uh and then that thickens up when it comes to the boil.
+
+[40:57] Uh usually you cook it off now for like 20 minutes to get rid of any residual starchy and flour flavors, and then uh towards the end you stir in cheese to make a delicious cheese sauce. Like, you know, classic would be Gruyere or something like that, right? Staz likes Gruyere because she likes all kind of like fondue Swissy kind of crap. She's like she loves the like Italians and Swiss, right? Food.
+
+[41:21] Yeah. And people. I thought you're the one always uh coming to the coming to the defense of the Swiss people. I make fun of them because they're neutral and you're like, no, they're great. No, no, I like their food culture mostly.
+
+[41:33] But not the people. So you don't like Swiss people. You're going on record saying you don't like Swiss people. I like some Swiss people. All right, all right.
+
+[41:40] Just curious. I'm just asking. Okay. Um, where was I? Mornay sauce.
+
+[41:45] Okay. Ideally, I would like to be able to make this sauce ahead of time and just heat it up for service without having to worry too much about it breaking. I'm not sure if it matters, but I would like to incorporate cheddar. I'm not at all adverse to adding strange chemicals into the mix. I just wasn't I want the main flavor to come from actual cheese, i.e., not from processed cheese.
+
+[42:07] Any thoughts or ideas, this would be a great assistance. Thanks, Matthew. Okay, look. We've all had cheese sauce go grainy, right? Have you had a cheese sauce go grainy or have you just never made a cheese sauce before?
+
+[42:18] No way. Yeah, we've all had a cheese sauce go grainy. She's not paying attention. She's literally staring off in Roberta's waiting for her pizza that is soon to come. So there's a number of things, like the couple of problems with cheese.
+
+[42:30] Some cheeses just don't melt very well, right? And they go grainy. The other problem with cheeses is you heat them up and they break. So you know the basically the fat is bound in kind of a protein and water matrix and then it breaks and it turns into a fatty goopy thing, and then like a curdled, nasty protein bull crap, and your sauce is ruined, and or it's grainy. And you want to try to prevent all of those things.
+
+[42:50] So one of the things you can do to prevent that from breaking is to ha uh starch. But of course, there's already starch in your sauce. You can add, you know, maybe a little bit more starch that's not necessarily one that you need to cook off as much, like a rice starch or something like that. Um, but I'm gonna talk about non-starch-related stuff to get it to go. Obviously, if you're making uh if you're if you're having problem with it getting ropey, right, you can add a little acid, which is what McGee recommends, and it's why fondues always have white wine in them to increase the acidity a little bit so that they tend not to get ropey and they tend to stay smooth.
+
+[43:19] But if you're having melting problems, right, and you want to know why how it is that Velveeta is so freaking delicious, but you want to not from a texture standpoint. I'm not saying you like the taste of Velveda Nastasha because she's making a stink face. I'm saying the stuff melts like a genius. Is there any better melting cheese? Is there anything more like melty, awesome than queso dip made with Velveeta, government cheese, and rotel tomatoes?
+
+[43:45] Delicious. Anyway, um my point is is if you want that melty thing, you have to add something called melting salts. So what they do is there's a whole category of things called called melting salts or emulsifying salts, and they're they use different ones. Sodium citrate is one that you might already have if you have hydrocolloids sitting around or different sodium phosphates like uh monosodium phosphate, um things like that. You add you you take your cheese before you make a sauce, take the cheese, grind it up fine, mix the salt in in the in the area of like a percent or something of this stuff, right?
+
+[44:21] Of the of either try sodium citrate, although I haven't used it like monosodium phosphate. You can get these things uh on the you know, maybe you can get them from Monarch's pantry. Fall Chris, we'll get it. But anyway, sodium citrate you probably already have if you do algine or things like that. Grind up the uh grind or grate the cheese, uh toss it all together with this.
+
+[44:39] If you need to add some other liquids if it's too dry, add liquids to it. If you need to add extra fat, add fat to it if it's very low fat cheese to try and get it, you know, in a relative into the relative proportions of a good melting cheese, like a grier or something like that, or like Velveeta. Now heat that, right, until it forms a smooth block, until it forms a smooth curd. Set that. And then you can use that cheese as the melting cheese in your Mornay sauce, and it'll be a lot more stable.
+
+[45:06] What do you think, Snaz? I think it's a good idea. Alright, so uh in doing this, I went and read a bunch of stuff on the internet. And um, oh, also if you add some of these things, they can make the pH of your of your thing, they can make it more basic because these things tend to make it like the they're alkaline, they make it more basic. And so it's gonna affect the texture of your cheese.
+
+[45:26] You need to add a little bit of an acidifier to the cheese as you melt it to bring the uh pH back down uh into the slightly pH range, or you're gonna have a problem. You can use citric acid, you can use whatever, you can use whatever you want. Um, you know, lemon juice, anything, anything you want. Um, okay. So, what I would do is go read uh if you want if you want to go stuff, go to the University of how do you pronounce it in Canada?
+
+[45:49] Gelf? University Gelf. They have the best, like one of the best dairy sites, and they have an entire section on how to make processed cheeses. Uh and so you should go to their to their website, the University of Gelph, look it up. If you want some cool pictures of what uh these things look like under the microscope, the little known food under the microscope uh blog, which you have to search for in Google under Foods Under the Microscope, have a really cool section on it, and also a really cool section on how to look at the curd boundaries inside of cheese that you buy at the supermarket um using uh like a cheese slicer.
+
+[46:27] You need here's what you need. You need a cheese slicer, basically, and you need uh sandpaper, and you need a two to five percent uh solution of glutiraldehyde. Now that sounds like you're not gonna have it, except for you can buy glutaraldehyde as a wort remover in roughly the same percentage that you need uh and denatured alcohol and acetone. So you can get all of these things basically at the local CVS or or right aid uh and and and do it. But I don't have time to go through their uh procedure, but just go under foods under the microscope.com and look up their awesome procedure for looking at curd boundaries in cheese.
+
+[47:02] Lastly, we just got a call in from I don't know from whom. Oh, from Don Lee, wrote texted us in. Uh by the way, Don Lee is tending bar uh from cocktail, he's you know, representing Cocktail Kingdom with Greg Bohm, which is a fantastic company that sells all sorts of awesome bar gear, including like the world's greatest ice pick, uh, for um it's an awesome ice pick. Like, I have no idea whether it makes ice crack any better than anything else, but you want to hold it all day long and tap people on the head with it who bother you. Uh, also, by the way, about them, not to push them or anything, but uh in general, I have a negative feeling about many reprints of old books because they're done so poorly.
+
+[47:38] And uh, you know, Greg, who does Cocktail Kingdom is also a publisher and an avid book collector uh of cocktail books, and I saw one of his reprints of uh, I think what was it, the Flowing Bowl or something like that, and it was such a good quality reprint that I thought he had reset the manuscript. That's how good they are, anyway, whatever. And they're being gracious enough to be one of the bartending crews at the museum event on Thursday. Don says, uh, regarding rancid fat, I have tasted a rancid fat wash, and it was seriously no bueno, but it was also a fat wash gone terribly wrong. They didn't freeze the fat and properly remove it.
+
+[48:13] The fat was left in slightly above room temperature for 48 hours and definitely had gone rancid. The longest safe fat wash I've done was 12 hours with ghee at room temperature before freezing. And that's just from Don Lee, and this has been Cooking Issues. Oh, you did. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[48:52] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market.
+
+[49:23] Open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday and 10 to 6 on Sundays. The Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare approved and certified humane raising standards. Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the Heritage Meat Shop at the Essex Street Market. This is a message from Fork and Anchor.
+
+[49:46] Aaron Fitzpatrick, the host of our wine program, Unfiltered, is looking for help on Kickstarter to open Fork and Anchor, a general store inspired by two food-loving ladies with an equal affection for urban life, the sea, and the agricultural paradise of Long Island's North Fork. The store is situated in a growing community of farmers and winemakers and will become a meeting place offering prepared foods, a variety of sun-dries, and a selection of homespun products, many of which will have their origins in New York State. Your backing will help them fulfill their dream of fostering relationships with the community and making the local food system accessible on a broader scale. Search Kickstarter.com for Fork and Anchor and donate today.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling all of your questions, cooking or non-cooking, tech or non-tech related, to 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:38] That's 718-497-2128. Currently joining the studio as normal with uh Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, the Hammer of Cooking Issues. Hi, Nastasha. Hi. In a couple of minutes, we're going to be joined by Superstar Chris Young, who's coming live from the main stage last uh yesterday at Star Chefs.
+
+[0:55] This being the Star Chefs edition of Cooking Issues. Uh so he did his main stage demonstration at the uh International Chef's Congress yesterday, and he'll be here in a couple minutes. He's on the BQE right now, caught in Brooklyn traffic. He's not from Brooklyn, so I think he doesn't realize how awful it can be getting around Brooklyn sometimes when you need to get somewhere, right, Nastasha? Right.
+
+[1:14] Right. Anyway, uh so uh make sure uh you know Chris Young, uh one of the authors of the mega cookbook, Modernist Cuisine, uh, will be here and he will answer any of your modernist cuisine or uh glider. Did you know that he's a glider pilot? No. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:29] He's like an avid glider pilot, like you know, catching thermals and all that, not like you know, little paper airplane gliders like the ones that he flies in. So he's an avid glider pilot, so if you have any questions about gliding or about uh anything else really, I guess, uh call in your questions to 718-497-2128, but think about him for a couple minutes, because it's gonna take him a couple minutes, probably to get here. But make sure you call in uh because that's gonna be fun. Okay, so uh what happened since last week? We had our uh fundraiser, right?
+
+[1:57] Yeah. Yeah, so the Museum of Food and Drink had a fundraiser at Mapesh Restaurant, which was uh I think an unqualified uh success in terms of I think the people really had a good time. Yes, they did. Yeah, they had a really good time. Mario Batali.
+
+[2:11] Mario Batale comes to the uh event and is was bidding like a lunatic in the auction. I mean, first of all, I don't know whether if I don't know whether you know this out there, but one of my skills is to go completely off my rocker bonkers lunatic during an auction situation. Would you would you agree that's one of my skills? Or at least crazy. Like if you want if if if what you want for your auctioneer is crazy, then I think in fact, at our next event, Snosh, see what you think about this.
+
+[2:42] At our next event, I think I'm gonna have as one of the auction items, I'll do an auction for you. Ooh, that's a good idea. Yeah. You like that? Like, I'll do like a charity auction for whatever your charity is.
+
+[2:52] Yeah, and yeah, yeah, right? Because I'm sure you know most people get like higher ticket items. They're like auctioning off like a country or something like that. Yeah, I I could definitely get that that money up there in terms of how much that country is gonna sell for as long as they give me the data on the country beforehand. I need the data.
+
+[3:10] I need to get jazzed up. I can get jazzed up about pretty much anything so long as I have the data. Okay, today's show again is being, and I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm just saying they must like us, which we appreciate. Today's show is brought to you again by the Modernist Pantry. I will read the I'll read the promo word for word.
+
+[3:28] Today's show is sponsored by the Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[3:56] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that order $25 or more before next week's show will get a free bottle of Pectinex Ultra SPL, the miracle enzyme. Simply use the promo code CI56 when placing your order online at WWW modernistpantry.com.
+
+[4:22] Visitors modern visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. How was that? Good? Jack, was that strong? It's pretty good.
+
+[4:31] Good? Alright. Stronger than some of your previous reads. Oh, jeez. Of this one or of different ones?
+
+[4:36] Different sponsors. Yeah, you know, I'm never gonna hear the end of it. Like, uh, listen, if you're gonna sponsor this show, right, and you're gonna make a piece of equipment that I've never used before, right? I'm just saying it's hard for me to get enthused. I can't make a claim for a piece of equipment that I've never used.
+
+[4:52] It's like not in my nature. It's just I can't do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't mind shilling out and selling stuff that you know that I know I I agree with, that I know they make a good product, right? So, like, you know, I don't know, poly science.
+
+[5:04] I like their circulators, so I don't mind shilling for them. Do you know what I'm saying? But if I've never used your stuff before, how am I gonna sell it? Jack, you're still mad at me about that? Sorry, no, I'm not mad.
+
+[5:14] Alright, alright. Okay. I'm impressed that you've memorized seven of the ten digits in the phone number. Oh, yeah. By the way, guys, I still don't have the phone number for this show memorized.
+
+[5:22] I've had listeners who have it memorized. I don't have it memorized, but I'm getting very, very close. I'm just missing the f the middle three digits, and then we're gonna be good. Okay. Uh uh who said this question, by the way, Nastash, I don't have the name on the Ikijime.
+
+[5:29] You'll find it. So I have a question in uh from about Ikajime. Ikijime, by the way, is uh the fish killing technique uh that we that we use uh that we studied, uh Japanese style, uh and there's different levels of ikijime. Ikajimi really just means fish killing. But uh we use in particular a technique uh called Shinke Nuki, which means destroy the spine.
+
+[5:53] And the idea being that by destroying the spine of the fish, uh you you you basically what happens is is that the spine keeps sending messages to the muscles even after you've killed the brain. And so uh those messages that are getting sent to the muscles reduce the amount of ATP that's available that's it that's in the muscles because the muscles are using the ATP. The faster you use that up, the faster you go into rigor. The faster you go into rigor, typically the harder you go into rigor mortis. And fish muscle is so strong that uh, you know, it it's it it the strength of the contraction is strong enough to actually damage the muscle.
+
+[6:25] So when it comes out of rigor, uh if it if it goes into rigor very hard and very fast, um gets damaged, gets mushy. So if you're gonna serve uh a piece of fish, uh certain fish, and you do this thing with spinal cord ablation, shinkanuki, you can uh get a firmer textured fish. So that's that's what we're talking about. And here's the question. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Ikajime and how much it would could really improve the flavor and texture of fish caught on a rod and reel.
+
+[6:49] I'm going to the Gulf Coast next week and hope to catch king mackerel, redfish, bluefish, and maybe some flounder and speckled trout. By the time a fish has landed, I will have been uh I will it will have been struggling against the line for maybe as long as 10 minutes or as few as thirty seconds. Big fish will be gaffed, then hauled up onto the fishing pier. At that point, the custom in the area is to whack it over the head and dispatch it, then throw it in the cooler. My question is to what extent can Ikijimi improve the outcome?
+
+[7:15] The fish will be stressed regardless of how it's subsequently treated. My plan would be to bring the fish to the pier, then either knife the brain or simply cut through the backbone blood vessels behind the head, then cut the tail, destroy the spinal column, and then bleed in ice water. An alternative would be to fillet immediately. If the cooler is too big for a whole fish, fingers crossed, because he wants a big fish. Then bleeding in ice water.
+
+[7:41] Any procedural suggestions would be appreciated. Okay. This is an excellent, excellent question. His name is Andy. Hey Andy.
+
+[7:48] This is an excellent question, Andy, because one of the things I've always wondered on IKime is the effect of post-catch stress on uh on an animal. Now, you obviously you want the animal to be as little stressed and as rested as is humanly possible. And that's not necessarily possible when you line catch something. I've had only one experience with uh line caught boat ikojimaid uh game fish in our waters, and that's in striped bass. So I did a shoot with uh Dave Chang uh for his iPad application.
+
+[8:22] I don't know if it's out yet or not. I don't know. Anyway, uh and uh one of the uh production assistants there uh fishes off of Montauk regularly, went out on a boat and got uh lime caught stripers and did Ikojime with the spinal cord ablation on uh one, and then basically, you know, uh whack over the head, gill cut, throw in a cooler with the other. And there was a definite difference in taste, the ikojime one being uh better, having a better texture. So that's only an N of one, so it's very hard to know uh whether or not it in all cases.
+
+[8:55] I mean, in other words, any time you get the fish and you do the ikajime, you're you're increasing the quality as much as possible. Would you like there to be less stress as the thing is being caught? Sure. But I think it's it's definitely getting uh you're definitely going to get some help, at least in the very small amount of experience I've had with line caught fish, uh Ikijime, there was a there was a difference. Um you know, obviously the ones that are struggling 30 seconds are going to be the best.
+
+[9:22] Also, you know, uh I would guess that the the bigger, stronger fish, the stronger a fish is, the kind of the more of effect you're gonna get. Now, listen, I really need you when you go to uh this is what I want you to do. Please, Andy, if you can do this for me, I want you to catch two bluefish. I mean, I know you can't control it, but I want you to catch two bluefish, and I want you to do ikijime on one, and I want you to not do ikijime on the other one. And I want you to tell me whether there is a difference on bluefish specifically.
+
+[9:53] The reason I'm interested in blue fish is bluefish is one whose texture and flavor can go off relatively quickly uh after it comes out of, you know, after it's killed. And I want to know whether ikijime can help with it, because it's also a fish that really isn't eaten, I don't think, in Japan. And so it could be really an American kind of test on this. Plus, I love bluefish. Some people don't like bluefish.
+
+[10:12] I love bluefish, and I've never been able to get uh Ikijime blue fish. So please, please test that. Now, uh instead of whacking over the head, uh, after you gaff the fish and bring it over, I would immediately uh I would spike its brain. Um and the reason is is that stops it from flopping around and it's very easy to hit as opposed to trying to do a gill cut. Right?
+
+[10:34] You could hit it over the head and then do the gill cut, but I think you're better off spiking the brain. That like kills it like this and takes away the stress, and then you have an easier time getting to the spinal cord. Now I would cut the spinal cord and the tail. I'm trying to learn how to go through the head of the fish to get the spinal cord, so you don't necessarily need to do the cut before you do the spinal cord ablation, but I'm not not quite there yet, because that's how they do it on tuna. Uh but uh so I would I would put it through the head first, then uh do the two cuts, put it through the spinal cord, and when you get it through the spinal cord, if you've never done it before, you can see the fish uh it'll do like a shimmy as the needle goes down.
+
+[11:08] So you know exactly how far the needle has gone down and and through the fish. So you you you know where you are. Now I would um if the cooler is not big enough, I think you're gonna have some problems. Here's why you don't want to cut open the fish. Uh cut it into pieces first.
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+[11:23] You want the blood uh pumping, basically. You want the heart to help pump out the uh the the blood to really really really clean it out. So uh if you can, please don't chop it into pieces before you get it into the cooler. Maybe actually if you can get down to the water, you can just bleed it in the water where the fish is. I don't know how high up the pier is or whether you can get to the water.
+
+[11:43] Another suggestion gut it right there after you do the Ikijime, gut it. Uh as you after you open it up, bring a a stiff brush with you, uh, and then go under uh take your um take your knife and go and cut along the membrane that's on the underside of the spine to expose and cut open the blood vessels that are running underneath the spinal column and scrub that underwater with a brush to get all of that goopy stuff out because that goes uh off as well. I would pull the gills out immediately and then take it and ice it and put it in the thing. I think that's gonna be like Uber maximum quality. What do you think, Stuzz?
+
+[12:20] That's good. He also wanted to know one another thing. Oh, yeah, I haven't I haven't read a second. Oh no, but there's one more after that. One more after the other one that I'm about to read.
+
+[12:29] All right. Uh okay. So uh Andy also has a question on canning and pasteurization. It's a two-part question. He says most canning recipes call for the sealed jars to be processed for 10 minutes in boiling or simmering water, supposedly to kill any nasties and ensure a safe product.
+
+[12:43] And the low temperature charts on the bl on the blog, cookingissues.com, uh, which I realize are dedicated towards meat and poultry. Uh I say that anything over 74 degrees Celsius is instantly safe. Do I need to process in the water bath for 10 minutes to achieve sterility, or is the 10 minute cook more for textual reason? Um and then B, I did not use enough pickling liquor in a couple of jars, and subsequently not all of the pickled green beans are fully covered with a liquid. Is that a major problem?
+
+[13:09] Okay. Couple of things going on here. Uh so if you're gonna can okay. We're talking about pasteurization versus sterility, okay. Um you're processing something in first of all, if you're gonna can an item, if you want to achieve sterility, right?
+
+[13:30] You have to, you can't just boil in in simmering water. You have to uh sterilize that thing, which means you have to pressure cook it using uh you know recognized canning procedures. And those canning procedures are based on uh I think what's in the what's in the can or what's in the jar and how big the jar is, because you have to guarantee a certain temperature for a certain length of time at the center of your jar in order to kill any spores that are in there. So there are certain bacteria, and the one they're really worried about in canning is botulism, which uh which basically forms spores and can't be boiled out with normal boiling. You have to go well over the boiling temperature and actually sterilize.
+
+[14:14] Okay. Now, the reason you can do canning at lower temperatures without a pressure cooker in certain situations is because you have enough acidity present in your product to or salt or combination of salt and acidity to ensure that no botulism is going to grow in there. And if that's the case, you just need to kill off some of the easier to kill bacteria that aren't spore-forming, and all the spore-forming bacteria don't grow because of the very high salt content or very high acid content or both. So when you are boiling something or simmering it for 10 minutes at boil, you're just ensuring you're getting to that high of a temperature. That's not really a sterilization procedure.
+
+[15:00] So the question is really, what are you trying to guard against? You could uh you could cook for a longer period of time at a lower temperature and kill everything that's in there from a vegetative standpoint and therefore get a different texture, right? But only if your product is inherently safe from a spore standpoint. So let me make this very clear very, very, very, very clear. If you are gonna sterilize, if you want to sterilize something and make a shelf stable product that you can leave on an unrefrigerated shelf for uh an infinite length of time, you have to either can it using a pressure canner using recognized procedures for pressure canning, or you have to ensure that you have enough salt or acidity in that can to ensure that no spores, no spore-forming bacteria are gonna grow after you do your initial kill step.
+
+[15:56] Spore. Spore. So, and if you if if you have that, you can cook at a lower temperature for longer and basically effectively pasteurize the product, but not sterilize it. On the second part of the question, where you're worried about there not being enough uh cooking liquor in the you know, pickling liquid in it, that could conceivably be a problem if it doesn't diffuse in fast enough. You could get possibly some growth of uh product uh in the portion of the thing that's uncovered.
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+[16:24] It's very hard to say without uh knowing it first. But be very careful when you're canning uh to ensure that you're not gonna grow botulism! Let's take our first commercial break. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hella can't be helped. And I'm coming from a brand new place.
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+[17:11] I'm feeling quick and I don't miss the lick. And I better don't leave no trace. Hey, check it out. Take it out. Take off this new liquor what about my nutrients?
+
+[17:25] And believe me, the capsule speaker feeling hard. The capstone's beat DLS hard. Some cat with the bed for the pause. Check me out. That's where the bust will start.
+
+[17:43] Buff the start. Taking place. So keep our pipe when you got the whole life and the bottles can't make okay. Gotta be on the hip butt. Welcome back.
+
+[18:19] Are we on? Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Chris Young is still on his way, still caught on the BQE.
+
+[18:34] Which for those of you who don't know our uh fine neighborhoods over here sucks. Right, Jack? It does. It does suck. Especially flushing ev sucks.
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+[18:44] And that's kind of where it's close to where that's close to where we are. Probably where he's getting off, yeah. Yeah, you know, Roberta's, like I tell you why Robert is designed uh basically solely for hipsters. And the only train really that services this place is the L, which is the hipster line. You know?
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+[18:59] Uh we were like they threatened to shut down the L, didn't they, Nastasha? For like a for like a week or something like that? Didn't you say that? Every weekend it's shut down. So what are the hipsters gonna do?
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+[19:08] There's uh there's a website that we can plug called Is the L Trainfucked.com. Wow, busting out the F. F bomb, F bomb, what? I'm not, I mean, I Jack already told him about it. They can go to it, and the answer is pretty much yes.
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+[19:23] Yes. Well, here's the here's the real question. Do you need to get somewhere? Then the L train won't take you. If you don't need to get there in a big hurry, the L train will be fine.
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+[19:32] I think that's pretty much pretty much how the L trained. You can take the J. Yes, you can take the J if you enjoy a 20 minute walk. Okay. Uh hello.
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+[19:42] Another a different Andrew writes. Oh, by the way, Andy emailed us while I was talking about that and says, How long do you want to age the bluefish and or mackerel when you catch it? I don't know. It's really something you have to kind of uh test. I would uh after you get it home, I would take and uh cut them into two fillets.
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+[19:56] I would taste some right away, uh, and then I would uh like keep it a day and then test it there. I doubt it's gonna take longer than a day to be good. I mean, most people who eat bluefish, they want you to eat it right, right away. I mean, like if you if you ever grew up fishing on Cape Cod, or you know, you grew up on near Cape Cod in the summers and people fished for you, which is what happened to me. They would give you bluefish and because it was considered a trash fish, uh, you know, when I was growing up, and uh they would tell you to eat it right away, and strangely, it's known as a very oily fish, and they would tell you uh they would always grill it, always 100% of the time it would be grilled.
+
+[20:30] I've never had it cooked any other way on the cape. And they would tell you to put mayonnaise on the fish. And here I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but they say oil they don't talk like this because they're from Cape Cod. Oil gets out oil. That's how it works.
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+[20:43] You put the mayonnaise on the fish because oil gets out oil. Doesn't make any damn sense to me at all. Makes no damn sense. But that's I'm just telling you, that's what they used to say. Uh I know, you know, mackerel, another oily fish you don't think of as aging necessarily, but some of the most interesting best mackerel I've ever had was Sabasushi, which was basically mackerel that had been aged overnight wrapped in combu.
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+[21:00] Like he fought like the chef uh Sas, I think it was Sasaki san, formed uh, you know, basically a roll with a vinegared rice and the mackerel, wrapped it in combu, and aged it overnight, which was delicious. So I think it's just you have to see. I just have to test it. You're gonna test it and you're gonna tell us how long to age it. Rice does it.
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+[21:19] Yeah, she's not listening. Yeah, we're doing a radio show. No, I just asked you to that was that was like a half hour ago. She's condense this question. Oh, yes, she is condensing a question.
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+[21:29] She is doing work for the radio show people, so I apologize. Okay. Uh Andy, Andrew, different Andy Retson. I have a few questions I've stored up rather than emailing you one little question each week. Hope that's okay.
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+[21:40] Uh so firstly, I was wondering about the mechanics of cartouches and whether there's really a reason to use one over just putting a lid on. Uh and what we're talking about here, a cartouche is not uh in cooking parlance, it's not like an Egyptology term. In cooking parlance, a cartouche is a piece of parchment paper that you cut into a circle, uh, and then you cut a little circle in the middle so that it just fits into a pot. Uh, and usually you're gonna use that in when you're brazing something, you'll put that in. And uh, and or if you're cooking um certain times you're cooking vegetables, you'll do that.
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+[22:14] You'll put a little bit of water uh, you know, and sugar and whatnot, uh, you know, butter, whatever, uh, in your vegetables, and you'll put uh uh like a cartouche over it and cook it. Now the theory of them is that it allows a certain amount of moisture to leave through the central hole in the in in the paper, right? Kind of like a parachute, let's some of the steam out. So you get a slow reduction, right? Without it getting a like it's it's not super fast.
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+[22:40] It's kind of a controlled reduction. And also it keeps uh basically a hundred percent humidity environment over the portions of the paper that are covered. So you're not gonna get on a braised item, for instance, you're not gonna get a lot of drying out of the meat that is not directly centered over the hole, right? That makes sense. So uh is there a big difference between that and just putting a lid on?
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+[23:07] I don't know. You know, I've never I've never really done the test. I can tell you how many times at home I've made uh I've made the cartouche roughly zero. You know what I mean? Like on the order of zero is how many I mean that's not true.
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+[23:19] I used to do it sometimes for the for the heck of it. I just don't know that there's gonna be that much benefit over keeping uh the lid on. I'd have to run a side-by-side test and see whether it really controls the uh evaporation rate any better or whether or not it actually prevents uh kind of some surface drying of the meat. Maybe this is something when Chris makes it here from the BQE, we can uh we can ask him about, yeah? I'll put that on the list of things to talk to him about cartouche because I'm sure that they've studied that because they did a bunch of in-depth studies of um classic cooking techniques on and you know they like to debunk the classic cooking techniques, so we can actually get him going on uh on uh confie as well, get it get it get his motor going on confie.
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+[24:02] Okay. Uh my other questions about the method you talked about some shows ago with using gelatin and meat glue to make noodles. By the way, this is a Wiley Dufrein trick. Uh, one of the great properties of gelatin, as I'm sure you know, is it's fantastic flavor release. Is this still the case in this application?
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+[24:17] Uh also uh is there any benefit in using this method over other thermoirreversible gels for making noodles, I guess. Now, uh that's an interesting question. I've had the noodles, and the noodles are delicious. Uh also they fry really well, better than any other kind of hydrocolloid noodle I've had. Uh, as for the flavor release, I mean, it seemed to me that they had a good flavor release because it's just my recollection.
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+[24:40] It would be okay. Gelatin, anytime you use a gel, you you care about whether or not that gel has a good flavor release. So for instance, uh alginate gel doesn't break up in your mouth very well, uh, doesn't leak out a lot of fluid, uh, so is basically the worst for flavor release. It's a flavor thief. It's uh, you know, it's kind of it's alginates are the enemy of flavor, which is why you either want a very thin or very soft uh alginate shell uh or you know, a lot of something very, very flavorful, otherwise you're gonna get a lot of the flavor sapped out.
+
+[25:18] And that's the problem a lot of times with things like alginate. Um things like gel-an have very good flavor release because they leak a lot of moisture, they break very easily in the mouth, and they uh and they're used at very low concentration, so they tend to mask flavor less. Gelatin is kind of the gold star standard for flavor release for a number of reasons. Uh it breaks very easily in the mouth, liquid comes out, and also it melts at body temperature. So when you eat it, uh gelatin literally melts in your mouth and turns back to a liquid.
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+[25:49] Flavor release doesn't get much better than that, right? So in this scenario where we're basically what we're doing is we're taking transglutaminase meat glue, stirring it in with the gelatin, the meat glue is cross-linking the gelatin so that the gelatin will no longer melt, not only at body temperature, but it won't melt even at at deep frying temperatures. So one of the things that gives uh gelatin its great flavor release, the fact that it melts in your mouth, is not gonna happen. However, uh it still breaks up very nicely in your mouth, almost like a pasta. So is it gonna have as good a flavor release as straight gelatin?
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+[26:24] I would bet not. But it, you know, it is gonna have a better, it does have a good flavor release, and that's just from kind of you know me, me knowing that from eating it. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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+[26:29] Okay. Um finally, although it's not really finally because he has the fourth question. By the way, when you s when you guys write in and you say finally, make it the final question. Ask as many as you like, but make the final one the last one. All right.
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+[26:48] Uh just kidding. I'm just kidding, Andrew, I don't really care. Okay. Uh, in your post on enzymatic peeling, you use a combination of two enzymes. Uh I used uh Pectinex Ultra SPL, which is the one that they're selling on Monarch's Pantry, and Pectinex Smash XXL, which was the first one of the enzymes really that uh I was using for breaking down pectin.
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+[27:08] Uh and when I wrote the uh and post on peeling things with uh enzyme enzymes, I used both. Have you found that Pectenex Smash XXL is not really necessary? In other words, can you do it just with Pectinex Ultra SPL? Yes. Um you can.
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+[27:23] So I no longer bother sourcing Pectinex uh Smash XXL. I find that if you just add a little bit more of the Pectanex Ultra SPL uh that it works fine. The reason I initially used both was uh the the people at Novazymes, the enzyme uh person at Novozymes uh said that the one that was most optimum they used to make an enzyme called Peelzyme, whose only job it was was to break down um the kind of membrane around citrus fruits and also the albedo, the white part in a citrus fruit, right? That's all that thing was built for, peelzyme. They stopped making uh peelzyme.
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+[28:01] Chris Young is coming, I see him coming around. Uh they stopped making peel zyme. And so what the enzyme specialist at Novozyme said was why don't you use a mixture of uh Smash XXL and uh ultra SPL? But then later it's just slightly more effective. So I just use a little more uh of the one enzyme than you would of the two combined and it works fine.
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+[28:22] We use about four grams per liter ultra SPL uh in our in our solutions to do our peeling. So that's gonna work fine. All right. We are joined in the studio by none other than Chris Young, author of Modernist Cuisine, friend of friend of mine, friend of uh friend of the cooking issues, and uh our one of our West Coast buddies. What's going on, Chris?
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+[28:49] Not too much. Very frustrated with your traffic here in New York. Uh yes, not used to it. Not used to it. I like that.
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+[28:55] You know, in in in in Seattle, everything's nice. The traffic's nice, me, me, me, me, me. Yeah, that's uh that's I think why I'm gonna go right back. I like the West Coast. All right.
+
+[29:04] Uh one question for you before I before I forget. We had someone write in, I don't know if you address this in modernist cuisine. Uh by the way, call in all of your questions to Chris at 7184972128. That's 7184972128. So someone's saying, you know, cartouches, you know, where you cut the paper and then you cut the little hole in the center of the paper and you put it in the pot so that it uh kind of gently boils down.
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+[29:26] Any any point in that as opposed to a lid? Not really one that I could possibly think of. Uh all you're gonna do is slow down the evaporation, keep it closer to the boiling point, but uh no, I don't really see any benefit to it over a lid. Yeah, me neither. Well, that's the thing.
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+[29:43] So the question is, is uh will you are you gonna prevent any local? So if you have a very tall pot, right? And I'm just talking right out of my behind here, but if you have a very tall pot and you have, let's say, uh, that was my iPad, folks, and you have like a uh uh like an asebuco or something like that. Sure. Uh, and so your liquid's not covering the thing.
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+[30:03] Do you think it's gonna get any drier because of the because of the steam basically hitting that one section that's not covered? Is it really not going to make a difference? You're gonna have like a local deficit of humidity there. I mean, I don't know. That's the only event.
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+[30:15] I don't see it making in the oven. I I can see there being a bit of an argument for using one in a brazen and oven. Uh on a stovetop, I don't see any benefit over a lid. I I think that's highly suspect that it's gonna make a significant difference there. But in an oven, you are gonna slow down evaporation, you're gonna raise the wet bulb temperature, and you're going to get an effective higher brazing temperature than if you left it uncovered.
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+[30:37] Oh, sure. By the way, this is something that uh I you know, as long as Chris is here, let's debunk this sucker right now. You are not creating any pressure in a pot by putting uh a lid on. Uh even a minute overpressure in your pot is many pounds of force on a large lid. You are not increasing the pressure to the extent that you're increasing the temperature on the inside of that pot.
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+[31:09] What you are doing by preventing uh evaporation is getting your temperature actually up to the boil throughout rather than uh rather than allowing it to uh be basically be evaporative cooler. So an experiment you should run at home is take an oven with two Pyrex dishes, uh same Pyrex dish, set your oven to 350, uh cover one Pyrex dish with aluminum foil tightly, uh, and then you know, jam a lid into it so that you know you're not getting much evaporation off of it, and then leave the other one open. The one that's covered will boil, the one that is not covered won't. Agree? Yeah.
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+[31:46] Yeah. Anyway. Uh huh okay. So Chris, how was your main stage perfor how was your how do you feel about it? This is your second time on the main stage of Starchest by the way, right?
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+[31:57] Uh yes, this was my second time. Uh this this was a bit interesting. I think we attempted to do a a little more cooking this time and a little less uh dog and pony show uh which went pretty well except for the fact that we were cut short by about fifteen minutes. Yeah. You know and when you're doing a show that you set up from kind of far away you have X amount to do and you know you're gonna do a lot, you don't want to get I mean 15 minutes is a big deal.
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+[32:20] No, I had to cut a lot out and we had to compress a lot of a lot of steps. So uh luckily my colleague Kyle was able to keep up with me as I drop stuff. But uh it was entertaining. Came came complete with its own explosions. Oh yeah well so uh I didn't realize what happened.
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+[32:33] Apparently what happened okay so we might as well get into this. So one of the things look modernist cuisine costs five hundred bucks right and and I get this knock and I don't have nearly the kind of crap that you guys had. So I'm sure you get this knock even more than I have that this is stuff is you need a lot of equipment, blah blah blah blah blah. You've heard this bullshit many times. I I've certainly heard people assume that you need thousands of dollars worth of toys to do this stuff.
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+[32:58] Which by the way not the case. That's just the way I feel about it. But uh so one of the demos that Chris uh did yesterday at Starchefs was to do um low temperature reductions without having to buy a rotovap. So basically your ability to do low temperature reductions in a in a restaurant situation uh for under five hundred bucks relatively effectively, yes? Yes, that's that was the point.
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+[33:36] Is how do you how do you get on eBay a little Google foo and put together your own evaporative uh reduction system or vacuum reduction system? Right. So it's not it's not a distillation system because you can't recover. No. Uh actually, you know what, then it's totally legal though, even to do port in it because you can't recover.
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+[33:53] That's right, you're not recovering any of the vapors. So it it's not a replacement for a roto vap, but it is fun to point out and just needle you a little saying you don't actually need a roto vap to do what eighty percent of people do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although you know, I am I am the uh uh the other section where I am almost always using the illegal distillate, but in restaurants you can't because you know you can't, you know, endanger your liquor licenses. That's the the main problem.
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+[34:16] So what Chris did was he set up uh an aspirator pump. You had a nice one though. That one's not a cheap one. Uh well we bought that one used though. So I think if you were to buy that one new, yes, it would probably be about a thousand dollars new.
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+[34:27] There's no reason for it to cost that much. Uh I saw them used on eBay for around five hundred. But I didn't get into this yesterday, but you don't even need that. You can even buy the aspirating nozzles that screw on a on a faucet and just use the venturi effect to basically give you a vacuum, and that's what thousands of chemistry labs around the country do. Right, but then your boiling temperature is only gonna get down to whatever I mean, look, here's a way an aspirator works is you're you shoot liquid past uh um an orifice at a high velocity, it carries basically the air with it and sucks a vacuum.
+
+[35:02] You the you're limited in the in the vacuum that you can suck by uh basically by whatever the vapor pressure of water happens to be at the temperature that the water is. So the most effective way to do this is to use ice water. Uh and so recirculating aspirator pumps are uh the way to go if you want to get the lowest stuff, and if you don't believe in throwing water away, like absurd amounts of water away, because you're talking like gallons, gallons and gallons and gallons. Now, I'm not going to tell you to go on uh the internet, search uh for do it yourself meth labs and see how those guys use a flowjet pump hooked up with PVC tubes to aspirators to build your own recirculating aspirator because I wouldn't advocate that you go up and look up uh do it yourself meth labs. But if you wanted to, you could go there and for about uh you with at Home Depot, you can get a good pump that'll do this for like, you know, eighty bucks, ninety bucks, and then you just go buy uh series, you have to buy two or three aspirators, put them in uh in um parallel to get a higher rate of pump down, and you can do this.
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+[36:15] Although I'm not advocating it, but you can do it. I'm not I'm advocating the pump, not the not the meth. Yeah, I I I think that's what's coming across here, Dave, although I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what?
+
+[36:26] Like until until they get so tweaked out that they blow themselves up in their own lab, like you're you start with like a uh people who are smart enough to do orgo, basically, right? And you know, kind of ambitious enough to build their own setups. And uh so, you know, they have some good ideas and then they you know I think what I'm hearing here is you're not you're advocating buying some uh stuff at Home Depot, not some phenylalanine solution. Bingo. Okay.
+
+[36:50] Yeah. Yes. Yeah, okay. So uh anyway, look, we can learn from everyone. Learn learn from meth labs if if they if they're there to help you.
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+[36:57] Uh but what I was really interested in with this setup is so basically it's just uh uh an Erlenmeyer flask with a sidearm uh a plug in it and uh stirring hot plate and a stirring hot plate although you know you could get away with look you don't want to ignite it. So you can get away with you could get away with I guess you need it to stir yeah you want to avoid the bumping that that's sort of the aside from stirring and getting yourself a nice vortex for greater surface area you will get it jumping all over the place if you were just to put it in a pot on a uh a hot stove. Right I mean my only problem with the with those stirring hot plates is that um they're they're not cheap you have to get them used. You have to get them used but uh there was a I I literally before my presentation yesterday Google eBay just to double check and there was a a huge number of them for around a hundred dollars um and they're they're dirt simple so there's not much that can break about them. Right but just so you guys who haven't used one out there they are great not gonna deny that um you you know and they and this managed bars are like two bucks for McMastercar.com or Cold Parm or whatever they're like two bucks they're nothing uh the one problem I have with them is that their heat rate is very very slow.
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+[38:13] So they will once they're stable they're good and ready to ready to rock but just know that when you turn one on don't expect it to get up to temperature instantly and they don't dump a lot of watts quickly into your which it's not a problem. You actually that's good for you. That's that's good. They're designed for a chemistry lab where stability of your temperature and accuracy is a lot more important than responsiveness. So it can be frustrating when you turn it on and it takes thirty minutes to to get to stable temperature.
+
+[38:39] But once it's there, who cares. Right. That's it that but that's my point. My point is is that is that it's going to take a cook a while to get used to the response. Is it really all that different than a French top?
+
+[38:50] I mean, a French top, you turn it on in the morning, you leave it on all day, it doesn't change temperature massively. And if you're used to that, you just leave this thing on all day and know that it's hot and don't touch it. That's that's a very good point. And but my all my another point I've always said is that I wish more cooks in the US were used to French tops. Because I did my cooking in over in the with the Euros.
+
+[39:10] Yeah, I mean, like I mean the amazing thing about about them uh is that I think it's really interesting to because on a French top, you don't you don't uh adjust temperature by adjusting knobs. You cook spatially. So you know uh kind of what you know you know what temperature your pot's gonna be based on where it is in space on the top, which I think is really great. I think it's really interesting way to cook, but again, not something that I think most U.S. cooks are used to.
+
+[39:36] No, and I think we'll probably end up skipping that and going to induction. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Um I was wondering is like, is there a problem doing an induction magster? Is it a problem or can it be done? I would think it could be done.
+
+[39:50] It might be a little bit of cleverness because you would need to you'd have you'd be trying to couple a magnetic field of the pot in the same time uh basically rotate that field to get your your uh stir spinning. So I imagine it could be done, but it wouldn't be trivial. Yeah. So anyway, so what Chris was talking about uh about the explosions yesterday was that uh he took the thing off of the heater to show that it was still gonna boil even though it wasn't being currently heated, and it's because we were lowering the pressure, or he was lowering the pressure in the Erlenmeyer using the uh aspirator, and uh set it down. Eventually, what happens is the aspirator starts getting the pressure down and the product starts cooling and it's no longer boiling, sucked enough of a vacuum to inhale the cap that was on the flask into the Erlenmeyer flask, and then ejected uh liquid out of the Erlenmeyer into the air.
+
+[40:42] Uh and it's kind of cool. I thought it was nice. Yeah, that that was rather spectacular. It it gave me pause. Yeah.
+
+[40:47] It was a good 10 seconds of going, what the hell just happened there? Yeah, well, you know, and this is uh oh, this is another good point. A couple things about this. One, I'm not gonna insult the gastrovac on air except to say that it doesn't work and it's useless. So uh the only way you can make GastroVac is by the way, is that is a machine that you buy that has a very bad vacuum pump on it.
+
+[41:07] That then should I be saying this? Do you agree with me on this? Um it's a bad vacuum pump. It's useless. Yeah, it's useless.
+
+[41:15] If you own a chamber vacuum machine, there's no reason to own a gastrovac. True or false. I don't think there's a reason to own a gastrovac full stop. Right. But if the gastrovac guys had, instead of putting that vacuum pump on it, put an ice bat an ice uh bath run aspirating pump.
+
+[41:32] Now I think you have uh uh a good thing. So the point of the Gastrovac is you're supposed to be able to do as Steingarten told us yesterday, Jeffrey Steingarden, was to do things like jellies at lower temperatures so that things don't caramelize, and to do like Wiley was was very very interested in vacuum frying for a long time so that you could get all the moisture. Well, and you can fry things that are very sweet that would burn at normal frying temperature. So bingo, they do this in the tropics in Thailand and stuff, they'll do deep fried pineapple chips. Sure.
+
+[42:00] Or or apple chips, another big one that you do that you you you want to totally dehydrate them in a frying situation, but not at at a lower temperature. But this isn't the way most people views their gastrovac, and that's I think why we're both saying this isn't uh a compelling technology. Right, because and here's the kicker, the gastrovac won't work for either of those two applications because anyone that knows anything about uh vacuums and distillations will tell you in order to boil something off, you need to either recondense it or your vacuum pump needs to be able to handle the vapor, and it can't. But Chris's aspirator pump, on the other hand, could do that because it can take as much water in as it wants. It doesn't matter.
+
+[42:40] That that is one of the beauties of it, is you can foul it up with the the worst vapors and it does not care. That's why we use them in Chem Labs uh for bust. Well, I'm not giving up my roto vap anytime soon. I think this would be a good solution to do kind of lower temperature jellies. If you want to reduce citrus juices or anything that has a real delicate aroma and flavor that would change with any high temperature boiling, this is the way to go.
+
+[43:04] So I'm gonna give it a qualified thumbs up. Listen, why don't we go to one more commercial break and we'll come back for another segment with Chris Young? Hey! Got the payback! Rubin!
+
+[43:30] A man! Got to get back! I need some get back. Payback. Payback!
+
+[43:43] That is payback! Revenge! I'm mad! Get down with MacGogriff! That ain't right!
+
+[43:59] Whoa! Holland Cass! Hey back! Here's a thing! You got the Cell!
+
+[44:26] Follow me out! Chicken chain! Told me they had all a rain! Hello, and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions in too.
+
+[44:42] Nastasha, what's the number? 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Alrighty. Oh, by the way, uh, before we go any further, Adam Lazarick uh wrote a question in before, and uh apparently there is a typo.
+
+[44:57] He wants everyone out there in internet land to know that he does not recommend cooking a uh was it a short rib, I think, uh, at 130 for eight hours. He knows that that's not long enough, so he doesn't want anyone to have that uh 130 F for eight hours attached to his name in any way, or uh to the uh LaCroix restaurant where he works in Philly, and we hope to get out to the next time we're in Philly. So for anyone out there listening, he knows better. I saw him a Star Chefs actually yesterday. Nice guy.
+
+[45:25] Okay. Uh and one more little note, uh, if I can get back to it, is uh in fact, I'll get back to the note, I'll have it be my my ending. Andrew wrote in and agrees with you about candies, but I'll read his, I'll read his notes on candies uh as we go. But uh oh, I also mentioned before you got here that uh you were a glider pilot. I am.
+
+[45:45] Yeah. That is the other hobby. Yeah. So well, gliding and cooking. That's it's you know, what else do you need?
+
+[45:51] So uh I want to talk about some of the stuff you're working with. I mean, look, everybody who's tunes into our show knows modernist cuisine. I feel like, you know, I like if you don't know I would be shocked if there's even one person who can hear my voice right now that doesn't already know about modernist cuisine because did our publicist pay you to say this? No, I mean I'm just saying I still you know, it's I can't I can't picture it. I can't look.
+
+[46:16] If you don't know it, if if you are the one person who was suddenly born and got interested in tech technical cooking, and this is the first thing you've ever heard about it, go Google modernist cuisine. Okay. Uh but let's talk about some of the stuff you're working on after the book. Sure. Uh one of the things I was interested in, you were telling me you were you were working on a project uh on milk in Africa.
+
+[46:38] You want to talk about that? Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So we did the cookbook at uh Nathan's day job, which is uh running a company called Intellectual Ventures, which uh uh simply put it's an invention company. And so the cookbook project was just one of many odd projects going on. We had anti-malaria projects involving lasers shooting mosquitoes down.
+
+[46:57] That was going on right in front of the kitchen. Um I've seen the laser, it's cool. Yeah, so um I got asked at the end of the book project, since um I'm kind of a uh uh technical food guy, if I would help out on another project that was going on the lab, which was um basically improving uh the milk situation in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly Kenya and Uganda. This is a Gates Foundation sponsored project. And we take it for granted here in this country that we can get milk from the farm, it can be shipped, it can be pasteurized, then it can be kept cold, shipped around and distributed, and we get this very fresh milk supply.
+
+[47:29] But in fact, that's a very recent technology. Even in this country, it's less than about 60 years old that we've reliably done that. And before that, we did all sorts of crazy wacky stuff, like putting formaldehyde in milk to try to eke out a little bit more shelf life because we didn't have a reliable cold chain. Delicious formaldehyde. Yeah, real tasty stuff.
+
+[47:49] So Africa, it turns out shipping things and keeping them cold, really difficult. Um reliable cold chain non-existent. And so by some estimates, 50% of the milk that these small whole dairy farmers produce spoils before it can be sold. Incidentally, it turns out that 50% they would need to increase their amount of milk sold by about doubling it to basically break the poverty trap. And most milk produced in Sub-Saharan Africa is by small hold dairy farmers who have two, maybe three cows.
+
+[48:19] Um they're not able to sell their milk before it spoils. And and then even then, uh they don't capture a lot of the value. The dairy traders do, who tend I mean, theoretically, all of the milk in Kenya is supposed to be pasteurized. In reality, 80% of the milk is purchased and sold and consumed raw. And actually that's not strictly true, because people don't drink raw milk, they would all be dropping like flies because it is basically diluted shit.
+
+[48:48] I mean, the the bacterial counts are fantastically, I mean, just mind-boggling numbers of over a hundred million collar units per per milliliter. So everyone boils the bejesus out of their milk, and as as a result of this, they turn out it turns out they like the flavor of boiled milk. Where you and I might go, Oh, that's a little kind of sweet tasting, not to not to my liking. We're used to fresh milk. Well, the insight that um I had was basically why don't we if they like the flavor of boiled milk, why are we putting all this effort into cooling it down?
+
+[49:19] Why don't we basically collect the milk, bring it up to sous vide temperatures, uh pasteurization temperatures, because that's very easy to do in Africa, and then hold it hot for many days at a time until it's sold, it's purchased hot, and then it can be used within several hours. So those of you guys out there, listen, here's the here's the thing, right? Boiling energy intensive, especially if taken from cold, right? So to cool down and then boil energy intensive, heating it up to not as high a temperature, but keeping it there, not as energy intensive. Right, and it's actually even more than that because what happens today is they transport the milk, it's chilled down, then it's heated up again, then it's chilled down again, and you have all these heating and cooling cycles, and then the problem is you've pasteurized it, and now it has to be kept cold to be shipped around, and that's the real falling down.
+
+[50:05] Is it forget even the total energy consumption, it's just not possible to ship it around cold. But if you have a very well-insulated container, it's very easy to ship it around hot, and so now you don't have the temptation that the current traders have of let me put formaldehyde in there, let me put hydrogen peroxide in there to try to prevent my inventory from spoiling before I can sell it off. So, how long can you hot hold? Um, we're we're actually working on finding out. I mean, you can hold indefinitely from a microbiological standpoint.
+
+[50:31] Taste though, from taste standpoint. That's going to be very subjective. To me, at three days, that's the the upper limit. What about for the consumer there? Well, we're doing sensory studies right now to figure it looks like at one and two days, almost everyone thinks the milk's fine.
+
+[50:44] At three days, maybe ten percent of people don't. It's gonna fall off by some amount, and so probably the price your milk commands falls off over a number of days, too. So the flavor profile, even though they're gonna boil it when they get it, yes. Uh is different if it's been held hot for longer than about three days. You're essentially running even though it's a very wet system, over that duration of time you get some mired reactions, so you actually get some caramel color form running some of those flavors.
+
+[51:10] Um the milk, yes, you've destroyed some of the micronutrients, but in fact in Africa the macronutrients is all you give a shit about. Right. Now, uh one of the problems you were saying in this also is getting heat exchanges that don't foul up in the field because you want this to be as simple as possible for the farmers. It has to be incredibly low tech, it has to cost less than 200 dollars to be a viable product. And how close are you to hitting that number?
+
+[51:34] We're very close. We're expecting to be doing pilot studies in January in Kenya. Right. And so now just so you guys know out there, because this is another thing I hate, is you know, you know, Chris has been involved in high high-tech cooking for uh a long time, and they say, you know, the stuff that you think about never has any kind of impact. And it is true that you know, tend to focus uh and the book focuses on things that uh are are aimed at a high end consumer, let's say.
+
+[52:02] But uh turning now the same kind it's the same thought process. It's like here are the givens, here's what we're trying to achieve, right? Here's the problem, here are the givens. What can we do with it? So it's the same kind of creative notion that can then be applied to this kind of a problem.
+
+[52:17] And I think what's you know, what's different about uh, you know, what at least my impression of what's one of the things that's different about what Chris is doing here uh with the Gates Foundation, right? And and and Nathan, I guess it's a lot of people. Yeah, it's intellectual ventures and the Gates Foundation. Uh is that starts from a uh science perspective, but more importantly from a cook. What tastes good?
+
+[52:37] How can we make this milk taste uh the way that these guys want the milk to taste? Not how do I want the milk to taste, or not like how do I just make it safe? How do I make milk that these guys want to drink that also is economically viable for them and and and and will also will also be safe. But the safety has to go with the it tastes good to them. Yeah, it's very funny because in a lot of situations people come in from the Western world and want to force a Western technology, a Western viewpoint onto them.
+
+[53:06] But in fact, they don't like the flavor of our pasteurized milk. It's too bland to them, whereas we like that blandness. They don't like homogenized milk at all. It's too lean tasting. They want that rich, full fat taste you get of of the raw, unhomogenized cream.
+
+[53:19] And so everyone who's looked at this problem before is trying to say, well, here's how we do it in the Western world, let us show you how it's done. And we took a slightly different attitude of saying, well, that's not what they like anyway, so why don't we just try to figure out how to give them what they like and we just have this problem of preventing the milk to spoil? You could do it cold, but why not do it hot? So what percentage uh do you think now of milk in Kenya just is unsalable because it goes bad? We think about fifty percent of the milk is is lost to spoilage.
+
+[53:44] Right. I think you said that before, but I just want to say it again. Fifty percent, right? So and how big a number is that? Oh, uh it would be trillion uh be um hundreds of millions, close to billions of liters probably annually.
+
+[53:57] Right. And so that's how many. That's over the broader sub-Saharan Africa region. And if you if you remember, so it's fifty percent of the milk is co going bad right now and is unsaleable, and that's about the number it would take yield-wise, dou double the current yield, i.e., not losing that fifty percent to get those farmers out of the poverty line. So you're talking this gets them to that place where they're no longer at the poverty line.
+
+[54:18] We're we're s I mean, this is part of a much broader initiative that the Gates Foundation has funded called the East African Dairy Development. And the idea is that milk is a major product for people, it's a major source of nutrition, it's a source of actually drinkable water. And so we're hoping that this is one step in basically really solving some of the problems over there. Small differences may have a big impact. Alright, nice.
+
+[54:40] I like that. Uh so doing good work. Uh uh is that laser thing with the mosquitoes actually working or no? Uh it is actually working. They were doing some testing of the the kill laser uh last week, I believe.
+
+[54:52] So this is basically uh like Ronald Reagan's anti-missile Star Wars thing, and it just shrunk by a couple orders of magnitude. Yep. I mean, quite literally, that's what it is, right? Yeah, the the basic idea is that uh if you can in a in a say around a village reduce the mosquito population by a significant amount. Don't totally eradicate it but reduce it, you can have a profound impact on how quickly malaria is transmitted.
+
+[55:16] So we decided to start shooting the lasers out of the sky with a laser. Yeah, it's crazy. I like that. It's crazy though. It's it's Looney's loony tunes, but it it does work.
+
+[55:24] All right. So here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna read a comment on candy about Nastasha, and Chris is gonna comment on that. And while I'm doing this, I want him to think of something uh in cooking that he hates. And we'll end with something that he hates in cooking, right?
+
+[55:36] You gonna think about that while I read this? I'm gonna think about that. All right, Andrew writes in and he says he's also like to say that Andrew is totally with Nastasha on red, orange, and yellow candy being crap candy flavors. Artificial cherry, this is Andrew's words, not mine, is a vile abomination and sullies cherry's very name. I mean, come on.
+
+[55:54] If you can't make a flavor that is remotely like a delicious fresh cherry, don't use it at all. As for oranges and lemons, they're just boring. With the fantastic flavors that flavor houses producing candy manufacturers, they have no excuse to keep using these crap flavors. Still, the worst candy flavor of all time is popcorn jelly beans. I can force myself to eat other distasteful flavors like artificial cherry, and in turn increase my appreciation for the great flavors.
+
+[56:18] But Jelly Belly popcorn goes straight in the trash. Alright. Any comments, Nastasha? I agree. We have a caller just thing.
+
+[56:25] Oh, really? Alright, so Chris is gonna think about what he hates. And caller, you made it in just under the wire. Hi, uh, my name is Janani. Um, and I have a question about hard boiling eggs, actually.
+
+[56:35] Uh, I'm wondering if it's better to put the egg in uh when the water is still cold or to drop it in when it's hot. All right, listen, I'm gonna have what I think, but I'm gonna let Chris say what he thinks, and then we'll argue about it. What do you think, Chris? Generally speaking, I like so there's a pro and a con to it. I like putting it in cold because the egg doesn't tend to get the thermal shock and it doesn't tend to split on you.
+
+[56:54] But it becomes a lot more difficult to time it just right because how long is it gonna take that pot of water to get warm? And I've read studies that say it's harder to peel if you go from cold versus if you go in straight hot. But uh here's my thing. Are you timing your eggs very very rigorously? Uh no, I kind of just leave it and come back.
+
+[57:14] Then go from cold. Then go from cold, who cares? Yeah, I mean, look, these boiling water things, what they're doing is is they are uh they're they're getting a large, large pot of water boiling and they're plunging enough eggs in there that the temperature never really drops appreciably below the boil. And therefore, therefore, assuming you use the same size eggs all the time, you can get a very accurate temperature. If all you're concerned with is getting a hard boiled egg and not turning green on the outside of the yolk, then I would just bring it to just below the boil, leave it covered, and let it go back to cold, it won't get what do you think about this?
+
+[57:49] I think that's fine, and I'm gonna throw in one tip here. If you have a hard time peeling your your hard boiled eggs, get yourself a blowtorch. Oh. If you hit the shell with a blowtorch and then try to peel it, it's way easier. Like after it's pulled out, it's dry.
+
+[57:59] After it's done cooking, after it's dry, you just go around uh basically hitting the surface with a blowtorch for an intense pulse of heat, not really enough to cook it, but that shell will come away much more easily. Really? Great. Nice. Well, thanks for the call.
+
+[58:16] Great, thank you. All right. You're welcome. So, Chris, to take us on out of this, give me something you hate. Uh, I hate uh I hate the label of molecular gastromedy.
+
+[58:26] Boom! And I hate the parlor tricks that tend to come with it. Oh, yeah! Give me some more, give me a stop. For about 10 years I've been associated with this kind of cooking.
+
+[58:35] And I will go into restaurants, I see lots of foams, lots of gels, and done well. These can be wonderful, they can be exciting, and they should exist. But first and foremost, it has to be good cooking. And I'm getting tired of going into restaurants where people figure out who I am and all of a sudden the gels start come flying out. So I despise that.
+
+[58:52] Stop. Nice. Nice. And have you ever met someone who calls themselves a molecular cook whose work you respect? Oh, going rough!
+
+[59:03] I can't think of it off the top of my head. Don't use molecular gastronomy. Thanks, Chris Young. This has been Cooking Issues. Oh, you did that.
+
+[59:28] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[59:56] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market. Open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday and 10 to 6 on Sundays. The Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare approved and certified humane raising standards.
+
+[1:00:24] Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the Heritage Meat Shop at the Essex Street Market. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. Fourteen family farms and over 50 restaurants have committed to participation in No Goat Left Behind, a new program developed by Heritage Foods USA, a meat distribution company dedicated to preserving endangered breeds. Without an end market, the majority of male dairy goats are sold into the commodity market or killed at birth.
+
+[1:00:54] Dairy farmers are always struggling with feed prices, milk prices, and weather. Goats usually have twins or triplets, and for every female who will become a milker, there is a male buckling who will become a financial drain. It makes no sense that these males are sold into the commodity market or put to death when the United States imports almost 50% of its annual goat supply. Home consumers interested in participating can order goats through HeritageFoods USA.com. They will receive goats via FedEx, and home delivery is available for New York City customers.
+
+[1:01:23] In addition to the goat, these packages will also include recipes and a DVD featuring interviews with the farmers, processors, and chefs demonstrating how to break down and cook goat. Again, for more information on No Goat Left Behind, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com or call Aaron Fairbanks at 718-389-0985.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Join today in the studio, of course, as always with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:39] How are you doing, Nastasha? She's she's coming fresh off of looking at spaces for our new business, yeah? Yes. Anything good? Yeah, there are some great places, Dave.
+
+[0:48] Really? Are you just saying that? No, it was awesome. She's got she's got a crazy she's got a crazy sarcastic look on her face, people. So I don't know.
+
+[0:54] She thinks she can get away with like doing that without me making a comment on the radio. Warehouses? Yeah. Windows? No.
+
+[1:00] Why? Well, Nastasha's never worked in a place with windows before. Have you ever worked in a place with windows? Yeah, and jobs that paid me. Uh so you want me to stop that check from coming to Stash's house?
+
+[1:10] Oh, hey, Drew! Drew Salmon from Homo Fuku Enterprises. If you're listening, please stop paying Nastash's channel. I wasn't talking about Drew. I was talking about something else.
+
+[1:18] No, oh, okay. Oh, so you admit that Drew is paying you? Yes. Okay. Uh but Nastasha doesn't like to ro uh work in any sort of room uh with windows.
+
+[1:27] So if you have uh uh maybe a sub basement for Nastasha to work in, anything. Um she has one other requirement besides the fact that it can't have any natural light, uh it must also be extremely loud, right? There has to be a refrigerator working in it at all times. Uh like a like a large one. It also has to be um uncomfortably hot at all times.
+
+[1:48] Hey, have you ever been to Patrick Martins' office? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you have to uh have people try to store things in your office at any given moment. Large things.
+
+[1:56] Yes. Yeah. That's uh that's what Nastasha likes. Anyway, calling all of your questions, cooking or uncooking related to 718-497-2128. I didn't memorize it.
+
+[1:59] I have it written down. That's 718-497-2128. All right. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry. These guys love us, right, Jack?
+
+[2:12] Yeah, they we love them. Yeah, nice. Anyway, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Nastasha hates to overspend.
+
+[2:27] I do. Uh Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even pH modifiers, it means buffers, right? Right.
+
+[2:43] Buffers. Uh pH modifiers or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with worldwide shipping. By the way, worldwide shipping.
+
+[2:54] I was in Columbia, and apparently a lot of the Columbia of the country, which, you know, I just got back again, so we'll talk about that maybe. Uh, these guys have trouble getting some of the stuff down there. They were telling me everything's really expensive. Like meat glue's really, really expensive, gel an's really, really expensive. I don't know.
+
+[3:08] Maybe Chris ships down to Columbia. I don't know. That's Columbia with an O, by the way, not with a U. Okay. Uh, where was I?
+
+[3:14] Uh with worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantries your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. This week, Modernist Pantry is introducing its perfected guar gum. This exclusive formulation has advantages over traditional guar. First, it is prehydrated, which speeds the hydration while eliminating lumps. It also eliminates the need for slurries and pre-mixes it and handles it with virtually no dust.
+
+[3:33] Secondly, perfected guar gum does not have the taste that is typically associated with groir, which assures it will not entaint the flavor of your recipes. Use perfected guar gum as a one-to-one replacement for traditional guar. Fans of cooking issues that order $25 or more before the next week's show will get a free package of perfected guar gum. Simply use the promo code CI as in cooking issues 57 when placing your online order at modernist pantry.com. Visit us visit modernist pantry.com today for all your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[4:00] Perfected guar gum, huh? Yes. So we use a kind of guar called uh T I C flavor-free NT, whatever it is, 4 billion, whatever from T I C gums, aka Tick Gums. And uh we've used this kind of guar for years. Uh I don't know whether this perfected guar is uh the same as the flavor-free guar, but I mean, tick, T I C is like they're like kind of like the leaders or at least the original kind of flavor-free guar kind of a situation.
+
+[4:24] Traditional guar gum. If you've ever tasted traditional guar gum. Guar gum, okay. So guar gum and locust bean gum are both derived from seeds, and they're kind of uh, you know, they're they're fairly old, uh, you know, i.e. been around a long, long, long time uh because basically they're seeds, they're ground seeds, uh, hydrocolloids.
+
+[4:41] They're thickeners, uh, not gelling agents. And uh locust bean gum, LBG for short, locust bean gum is always been kind of uh of the two, kind of the the older, more handsome, sexier, and like, you know, more successful brother to guar because it like has a lot of good good properties. One of which is it doesn't taste like crap. Traditional guar tastes it the it's beanie. It tastes almost like um oh like black-eyed pea flour or something like that.
+
+[5:11] Has that flavor that it's from like a ground up seed that you know is kind of uh hard to deal with them. People use guar a lot because guar is a lot cheaper than locust bean gum. The other thing that guar um does is uh that you don't have to uh heat it, you know, uh up over 70 Celsius like you do for locust bean gum to get it hydrated. So uh guar gum has advantages for uh monetarily for large producers, but it always has had kind of a bad taste. It's typically used guar.
+
+[5:38] You'll see guar in uh ice creams typically. Ice creams are stabilized commercially, usually with carrageenin, and they use caragina, which is a seaweed because it it uh it's very it has synergistic reactions with milk, so you only have to use a tiny amount of it to get the milk to gel properly. Uh yeah, and when it gels up, that stops crystals from forming, which is why they use it. They use carragenin to stop basically uh crystal formation, but then you have to add a second thickener to the system to stop what's called uh weigh-off, where the liquid actually separates out from the wheat gel that's formed by the carrageenin, and that's what the locust bean or the guar gum is for. And typically they use guar because it's a lot cheaper.
+
+[6:15] Um the flavor-free guar is awesome. Now, the stuff that they say is prehydrated, uh what that means when you prehydrate a gum, gums are typically difficult to hydrate because they swell in water and form lumps. So you don't want lumps to form. And so half of using hydrocolloids, which are new age thickeners properly, is figuring out how to uh hydrate them. So people like TIC gums and others do a thing called uh agglomeration where they take smaller uh particles that hydrate fairly easily, and instead of packing them into just like a fine powder, they uh pre agglomerate them into kind of these very coarse looking little, they look like miniature, they look like like it has like a pilly look, as though it's like kind of microscopic grape nuts.
+
+[6:55] You've seen these before, Nastasha, right? They have a weird kind of a texture to them. I typically I don't have problems hydrating because we use vita preps, but this could be something useful if you don't have uh uh like a higher speed, a higher speed mixer. I've never used prehydrated uh guar before. I don't really like prehydrated Xanthan, by the way, which some people do, which is another kind of miracle thickener.
+
+[7:13] Anywho, so uh what I use guar for, guar, is um if you make a an ice cream, you can go on look up super stretchy ice cream on uh cookingissues.com. And uh we make a super stretchy ice cream using uh Calco gel uh F, which is gel-an, uh, which is awesome because it forms a fluid gel and it's also flame proof. But if you add guar to it, it's a weird synergy that I don't you know I don't think I've never read about uh other than on our site. Uh it forms a stretchy ice cream similar to Selepton Derma, which is the Turkish orchid ice cream, but it has an added advantage. The Turkish ice cream doesn't have is that you can light it on fire.
+
+[7:47] Right? That's an advantage lighting it on fire. Lighting on fire, always an advantage. Anyway, so go on Modern's Pantry and get your guar. I love the word guar.
+
+[7:56] I wish the band guar would advertise for guar gum. They should. They should well they should change the name of the gum to spell it the way guar does. Is guar still around, by the way? Yeah, they are.
+
+[8:06] Yeah. Nastasha, you're not that kind of a person. You never went to those kind of concerts, right? No. You're not you're not into that kind of uh decapitation rock.
+
+[8:13] No. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Uh all right.
+
+[8:17] So John S writes in uh and he says, uh, great show. Listen every week. He's called in once before. Hi, John. Yes.
+
+[8:24] Uh my wife and I and three-year-old son are coming to New York from Wisconsin. My wife won a Pan American Bingham Prize for her novel Stiltsville. Congratulations, wife. Uh I looked I looked up that novel and uh it had like very, very good ratings on the Amazon. I don't really read novels.
+
+[8:40] Do you yeah, Nastasha reads novels? I don't. I mean, this is one of my bad traits is that I don't read fiction. I basically only I sit around constantly reading nonfiction, typically about food, occasionally about the Civil War or you know, the CIA or something like that. Uh but anyway, so they're staying in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn.
+
+[8:56] Uh but Stiltsville, by the way, weird. Still do you know what Stillsville is? No. It's a community in um in uh outside of Miami in Biscayne Bay. These like like dudes, for some reason, I don't know why, they built houses in the bay on stilts.
+
+[9:09] They're like literally in the ocean, like in mud flats on stilts. And right now there's only seven of these houses left because duh, they get wiped away by hurricanes because it's a freaking hurricane country down there. So there's seven left. They've been around, I think, since the 40s or something like that, 40s or 50s, and people are trying to save them anyway. Weird little and apparently the novel is about the uh early days of Stiltsville.
+
+[9:29] It's kind of a good word though, stiltsville. Anyway, um, so they'll be flying during the show, so they're actually in the air right now, or else you'd call it in. Uh John says, I'm a tech nerd and a foodie, although I hate the word foodie. I hate the word foodie. Don't you hate the word foodie, Nustach?
+
+[9:42] Or it doesn't bother does it not bother you? Is that one of those things that doesn't bother you? It doesn't bother me. See, it doesn't see so so basically it if you use any word substance, it will bother one of the two of us, but typically not both. Right.
+
+[9:53] So don't ever show Nastasha a leaf with a disease on it, for instance, because that like fully free or a foot with a disease on it. That's you know, that's you know, the thing is people can't help it. Someday I hope Nastasha, not because I want you to have like a horrible foot like skin problem, but just so that like it kicks you of the habit of worrying about it, like if you have some sort of a horrible foot problem, just for a day. No, you hope I have it. Yeah, just for a day.
+
+[10:14] That wouldn't that cure you of getting worried about it? Anyway. So for me, for her, it's horrible, uh like skin does like skin does all this kind of thing. She can't stand it. For me, it's the word foodie, and I'll tell you why.
+
+[10:25] It's because uh it's it smacks of food fadism. It makes it seem like it's a fad as opposed to basically being a new uh, you know, a way of of dealing with with with life and food. So in fact, the term originally in the 80s was was kind of like just like yuppie, people there was a book, you know, about foodies, and it was making fun of it and you know basically saying like here's a bunch of people who uh you know uh I guess it just makes it into a fad a joke people who don't you know who are have nothing better to do a feed kind of you know just a bad smacks of bad stuff right yeah anyway uh and so it was kind of taken on by people who are interested in food as kind of a badge of honor but I just think it trivializes the whole the word foodie I think trivi trivializes uh caring about food anyway that's just me anyway uh so uh I'm a tech uh nerd and uh I'll say food lover instead of foodie uh and wonder if you have any recommendations for sites to see in New York this week unfortunately we're financially constrained uh or else you go to per se or WD50 and all that and with a three year old in tow and by the way yes you it'd be difficult to go to I guess people can go to per se with little kids right it depends on your kid my kid no my two kids they would take that restaurant apart right anyway that would be it um yes we enjoyed uh Mario Batali's Eatly and by the way we love Mario Batali at this because he really was uh so good to us at the museum fundraiser last week or two weeks ago or you know eight years ago when was it seems like last last week a week and a half week and a half ago when we visited last as an example of the uh type of thing we're interested in the criteria we're looking for something uh uh food lover interesting that we can't get back home in the backwoods of Madison Wisconsin something that's not terribly expensive and is kid friendly ish like street food cooking stores restaurants and tourist attractions well listen I don't uh I don't uh go out so uh I'm kind of uh I'm kind of bad. I'm gonna pump my friends here. Uh Sambar, is that really expensive?
+
+[12:22] I don't know. You can go to Sambar at lunch and get all the duck stuff. That was good, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, we had a really good meal there with the with the duck stuff.
+
+[12:29] Uh I you know, I would do that. And the good thing about Sambar is it's kind of loud enough such that the kids aren't gonna really be a problem. Uh, you know, because no one's gonna notice because it's loud. Um for food shopping. I mean, go to DiPalos on Grand Street.
+
+[12:43] It's like the greatest Italian. I love that store. Go there. Uh it's uh, you know, you might have to wait a long time. So go at a point when there's not um a lot of you know traffic, or you're gonna be waiting there a long time with your kid.
+
+[12:55] My kids have taken that store apart, but they're very friendly. Try to get someone in the family uh to help you out because they they know a lot, or else Renee, uh, who's really cool over there. Like so, Louis, Sal, Marie, Connie, or Renee. Anyway, go to Di Palo's, it's a treasure here. Uh what about uh what is another is Chesare's place uh kid friendly?
+
+[13:13] No. No? No? Salamaria Rossi, not friendly. I mean Otto's very kid friendly.
+
+[13:19] Kids love it. Um I don't have no idea. I don't have any. I mean, if tourist traction is walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, that's awesome. Yeah.
+
+[13:27] Right? What about food? Anything uh we'll think about it. And we'll after the after the break, we'll give you we'll give you some more some more stuff to do. Okay.
+
+[13:35] Here. Oh yeah, hell, you're gonna be in Brooklyn. Come to Roberta's Yeah, come out to Roberta's. I I see a three-year-old in front of me right now. I didn't want to say anything.
+
+[13:45] Oh, yeah. No, but seriously, we just got reviewed uh really well over here. There's some kids like literally looking at a table filled with kids of all ages. I see like a I see like a zero year old, like a three year old, and a five year old with only two adults. I'm pretty sure the next project at Roberta's is gonna be like a McDonald's playground in the back.
+
+[14:02] That would be sick. I'm kidding, but kind of. There's a lot of kids here. Kind of kidding. Listen, here's my here's my suggestions with uh Robertus.
+
+[14:10] Come early. If you're gonna come dinner time, lunchtime is not a problem. If you're gonna come for dinner, Jack, am I right or wrong here? Come early, otherwise, you're gonna be waiting a long time. Yes.
+
+[14:17] And it's gonna be a lot louder. So uh what time do they have to get here, Jack? Um, I'd say seven is 6 30, 7 o'clock. 6 30 or 7? That's a good time if you have a three-year-old anyway.
+
+[14:25] And by the way, if you don't come to Roberta's, don't call in again. Just kidding, but I'm not. Yeah, Nastasha pulling out calling me a D-bag on the air. Nice, nice. Okay.
+
+[14:36] Two. I've been making a lot of bread using the long rest method. Initially a recipe from the New York Times, improved by Cooks Illustrated. It's definitely got the best texture with white flour, but I like to make it with half wheat flour. I'm assuming whole wheat flour.
+
+[14:48] Uh when I do this, the bread is less chewy, more cake like, and less toothy. The texture is just not as nice. Would adding wheat gluten as an ingredient help? How much? Any other suggestions?
+
+[14:58] Okay, so I assuming what we're talking about here is the recipe that's actually Jim Leahy's uh from Sullivan Street Bakery, his recipe, which is kind of the no need uh recipe that became popular, I guess. Mark Bittman wrote about it when, in like 2006 or 2007 or something like that. So Mark Bittman actually gets credited with this recipe because when he wrote about it in the minimalist on the New York Times, it spread like wildfire across the internet. It was insane, crazy. Uh just like uh your buddy Leahy is.
+
+[15:28] Nastashi worked for him for a little while, right? A week. A week, yeah, a week before she came to work for a different kind of a lunatic that is me. Anyway, so uh so anyway, so the basically the Bittman writes about this. It goes it goes completely viral, nutbag lunatics, it's everywhere.
+
+[15:43] By the way, Leahy's bread here. If you've never been to New York, Sullivan Street bread and its various imitators and spawn are fantastic. Fantastic bread. Really great bread. So, anywho, so he writes a uh something, it goes nuts.
+
+[15:57] In 2008, Cooks Illustrated, so that's why it gets credited to the New York Times, right? Uh, even though he just came out with his book fairly recently, like a year ago, right? And uh his the book, his his basically uh book uh what's editor is the same person who's gonna be editing the I'm gonna write a book. He's gonna be writing that book, and so his book called like uh it's called My Bread or something like that, or Bread My Way or My Bread Your Way, Your Bread My Way. What is it?
+
+[16:23] Anyway, so it's his book. But the uh Maria Gorna Shelley, who I'm working with, is a genius, complete genius, she writes on the cover of this thing, no work, no work, bread. No work, no need, no work. That book sold like like uh wildfire for a bread book. It's a nice book.
+
+[16:41] Anyway, so sells it a jillion copies. This is extremely popular technique. Cook's Illustrated in 2008 comes out with a uh book, uh sorry, comes out with an article on it where they modify it uh slightly, and that was written by no relation to Nastasha Lopez, Kenji Alt Lopez, who used to be one of the main testers at uh and recipe writers at Cooks Illustrated before he moved on to uh to internet stardom. So what the hell's going on here? So the basic thing with a no-need bread leahy style is old school Leahy style is use a very small amount of yeast and a very, very high hydration, right?
+
+[17:17] So you're using a lot of water uh and you know per flour. Like he's using his recipes are insane, like unhandleable, insane kind of hydration loaves. Why? Because he's looking for these really big kind of um bubbles. Now, these loaves won't really hold their shape in an oven if they're baked traditionally, but he doesn't bake it traditionally.
+
+[17:34] Because here's what he does. He adds a very small amount of yeast and lets it rise for a very very with enough salt to make it taste good, because that's a lot of recipes, people don't add enough salt. Uh, and then lets it rise for a very, very long time, like uh 12, 14 hours or more. Uh after which they he you know takes it out, covers it in flour, and lets it uh you know, just moves it around a little bit in a in uh uh a bunch of flour to add some sort of structure to the dough, otherwise there'll be no structure, and then um lets it rise again in a heavily floured cloth and then throws it into a preheated uh Dutch oven. And that does two things.
+
+[18:09] It holds the shape of the bread and it traps in the steam, and so it gives you a really nice crust. Now, I have not baked this way, by the way, so this is all just based on like my knowledge of talking to everyone in the universe who does it this way. This is not the way I do it. Anyway, um, everyone likes it. Uh McGee wrote uh an article in the New York Times on this technique uh where he says yes, it makes really good bread.
+
+[18:28] McGee's knock on the whole thing isn't that the bread's not good, is that the bread's all very similar. It's very similar, kind of open, coarse uh, you know, textured, like large bubble crumb, which is what people are shooting for. People like that look, as opposed to the heavily kneaded uh, you know, less risen breads that had typically have a denser crumb. Anyway, so the technique is predicated one on his high hydration, which is going to make very big open bubbles, two on the cooking technique, which is going to generate a nice crumb and have uh, you know, produce a lot of steam, and three on the long rise time. And what the long rise time is doing is two things.
+
+[19:02] One, people say it minimizes the taste of the actual yeast that you're adding, right? And two, it'll uh when it the yeast is acting over a longer period of time, it's supposed to make more complex flavors, including acids like acetic acid, and all sorts of different wonderful flavors, and and also modifying the uh texture of the dough somewhat by the long by the long resting. In addition, you don't need to knead if you're gonna let it rise for a long time, because kneading is essentially the process of hydrating the gluten uh and providing structure for the gluten. The gluten will form its own structure, the theory goes, if you just let it rise for a long time uh and let it develop for a long time. So the kneading becomes uh inconsequential.
+
+[19:39] And in fact, you can't knead dough with as high hydration as the stuff that Tim Leahy uh uh is using. Uh and so you have therefore you have no need, no work bread. It just takes a long time. So now people, the cook's illustrated Kenji Yault was like, I don't want to wait this long for my no-need bread. So what does he do?
+
+[19:54] Ken Kenji Yalt ups the yeast content, ups the hydration, uh ups the uh sorry, lowers the hydration somewhat to make a dough easier to handle, needs it for like 15 seconds. My help, my guess is to help the structure development early on because he's not gonna rise as long, right? So he needs to move it around a little more, help the hydration a little more. And two, he cheats a little bit by adding beer and uh vinegar. And the beer and the vinegar uh are are there to fake the flavor of a long uh fermentation.
+
+[20:25] So it's basically let's fake the flavor of the long fermentation uh and try to get something done uh quicker. And so that's the Cook's Illustrated, you know, short need, like 15, 20 seconds or you know, minute knead uh bread uh that is also it's not but it's not nearly as high hydration. So this this is what we're talking about. That was a long explanation for what the hell we're talking about. But what if you didn't know what we're talking about?
+
+[20:48] Then you wouldn't know what we're talking about. So then he's saying uh, you know, the question here is if you're making it with wheat flour, it doesn't work as well. What's the problem? First of all, wheat flour is gonna require a higher hydration. So if you're doing the Cook's Illustrator recipe, which is a lower hydration bread, you're going to need to add more hydration to get your wheat flour to act the same way.
+
+[21:04] Secondly, wheat flour probably needs to develop longer. It's first of all, it's just never gonna whole wheat flour is just never gonna get the same texture, the kind of whole wheat flour you're using. If you want a uh really nice texture with a whole wheat flour because it's I don't know, the way it's ground, use like chapati flour. Like chapati flour is amazing stuff. Keep it in the freezer because it always has bug problems.
+
+[21:22] But like uh Lox Me brand, chapati flour, uh, I use that for pancakes and whatnot. So if you're having the problem that the bran is too coarse and it's actually uh def affecting the texture of your of your um bread, move to a different kind of uh whole wheat flour and see whether that helps you out. I've never added, I mean, I have added wheat gluten to whole wheat breads, but it's you know like decades ago, and it's I don't remember uh exactly what the things I used to dope it in uh all the time, adding wheat gluten. I mean, you add like uh you know a percent or two of uh vital wheat gluten, it might help out. But I would up the hydration a little bit and I go back to doing a longer rise, um, is what uh is what I would do.
+
+[21:59] In fact, McGee in his article says uh some wet doughs can still benefit from kneading, and one is whole wheat dough. Um, because uh whole he's this is McGee quoting whole grains tend to absorb more water and produce weaker gluten networks, and I found that kneading as the recipe directs gives a lighter, loftier loaf. Um, all right. So uh that's that. Although I will say that I do, although I haven't baked bread a lot in a long time, I do do a lot of pizza.
+
+[22:25] And my uh my pizza for a lot I always rise my pizza overnight, always. Like I used to do a technique, uh, I've moved to a no a less work technique now. I used to make uh what's you know, like what do they call it, a vega, whatever. I do 100% water and uh I mean 100% water and flour, equal ratios. Add the yeast, let it rise two times, uh let it rise up, and then uh beat and then add the extra flour and then let retard that.
+
+[22:48] It's called retarding. In the in the fridge, basically until the next day, and the pizza's always been great. But now I've I was talking to Michael uh sorry, Matthew uh Palombino, who has Motorina pizza also here in Brooklyn, which apparently is like some great pizza. I haven't had it. In fact, I haven't had it, but I can guarantee his pizza is good because the guys had the got the right attitude about cooking.
+
+[23:05] Uh you know, I spent some time with him and he's uh I mean to go there and have this pizza. Check out Motorino. But uh, you know, Charlie Trotter once said uh that you could review a restaurant just by looking at its floor because he's a neat freak. Isn't that crazy? You can't review a restaurant by looking at its floor.
+
+[23:21] But I can kind of review a chef by talking with him and seeing what their attitude and uh Matthew Palambino, even though he's Belgian and work for Laurent Turrandell, he has the right kind of like uh demented mental attitude to kind of get it right. Like he's qu quality obsessed. In fact, in fact, he has kind of a big thing we'd already talked about this in the show. He has a big brother kind of a thing with the camera where he can look at anyone's pizza as it goes out, even if he's in like uh he's in an I was in an airport in JFK with him and we're flying, and he looks at his iPhone and looks up the pizza that was being produced at the restaurant at that moment, calls up and just starts yelling at the person uh who's making the pizza. Wow.
+
+[24:01] Yeah, so it's like I love that. That's hardcore. And that guy, that guy's knows what's up, so we gotta go we gotta go check that guy out. And I'll give you one more thing on uh pizza, because you know my oven gets up to 850 degrees because I've modified it into a pizza oven, so it makes a really good pizza. Oh, and when you're gonna make pizza dough, like if you want a higher hydration, you're gonna get that softer, more Neapolitan feel.
+
+[24:20] Where if if you go for a lower hydration, you're gonna get more of that kind of American feel. And I don't really think there's one's better than the other. I mean, I don't look, I like a Neapolitan style pizza, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. I think whatever you want to eat at the time is the best one, right? And one last thing on pizza before we go to our first break.
+
+[24:35] I'm gonna give you a secret. When I was building my uh current apartment, before I had the oven in there, uh, we used to order pizza a lot. We'd order it from a place here in New York City called Lombardi's, which is a well-known coal-fired pizza product. Problem is, is the crust from Lombardi's is always soggy, and it's not a high hydration, so it shouldn't be kind of floppy soggy, but it is when it comes from the thing, even though it's a good tasting pizza. So here's the secret for you.
+
+[24:55] Uh take a blowtorch, turn your pizza upside down, right? On a pl on a platter, and blowtorch the crust until it gets uh until it gets crunchy again. Now, blow torches I don't typically like because blowtorches, um they if there's any fat, they pick up the kind of torch taste, but there's very little fat on the bottom of a pizza. So uh it tends not to pick up uh torch taste out of it. So just torch the bottom of the pizza with a blowtorch until it crunches up again.
+
+[25:23] Flip it, uh melt the cheese. You can do it with a torch, but you know, you know, better if you don't because the cheese is fatty. But anyway, and so that's my reheating technique to get delicious crunchy pizza. All right, uh, let's go to our first commercial break and we'll come back. Cooking issues.
+
+[25:51] I seen your picture. Your name and lots of love is your big thank you. So won't you smile for the count? I know that gonna love it. I keep it with your pizza.
+
+[26:24] Gun up and blueprint. And when you smile on camera. I know I love you better. Hey, we'll come back to the two. Hey, we'll come back to the two.
+
+[26:53] You see it all. It's your favorite foreign movie. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all of your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497-2128.
+
+[27:07] So you gotta get you gotta be a little more mellow with that music in the back, right? If it was up to us, we'd play Steely Dan all the time, every time. Really? Oh yeah. Is that your that's your that's your uh That's our jam.
+
+[27:17] That's your house jam? Oh yeah. Nice house jam. Uh okay. So uh I guess we'll start the second segment with a shout out from Adam, who we uh met in person at the Star Chefs International Chefs Congress, not to be confused with the ICC, the International Culinary Center, what a kind of a cluster, you know what that is, that they're both named the same thing.
+
+[27:35] Anywho, he says, what? It's not good. Okay. He says, hey Dave and Nastasha. I hope you all know how much I and the rest of the silent listeners appreciate what you're doing.
+
+[27:43] Cheers, Adam. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. Although don't be silent, call in your questions to 718. Oh my god, I forgot already.
+
+[27:51] 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Okay. Uh now, got a question in uh saying. Doot doo doo, gotta get to it.
+
+[28:02] Uh you speak often about how you use your immersion circulator a lot at home. I built one and it works. Great. Kudos for building one. Uh, but I found that a lot of good quick family meals, I have not found a lot of good quick family meals which would use it.
+
+[28:14] Can you give us some examples of where you find it useful at home? I've done chicken breast, which was decent if bland, and the fish tilapia I did was just plain bland and boring. Well, you're lucky if tilapia all it is is bland and boring. I mean, tilapia is is the fish where uh you know the best thing you can say about it is that it has no flavor, right? If it like any flavor that it has is gonna be bad.
+
+[28:35] You know what I mean? So uh, you know, I would stay away from tilapia if you can. I mean, I guess it's farmed and sustainable nonsense. Anyway, uh any specifics would be nice. Uh what to add to the bag for flavorings, time uh and temperature estimates, etc.
+
+[28:46] Perhaps a recommendation for prep and freeze in the bag applications for quick weekend night meals. Okay. Um now it is true that uh the circulator doesn't really excel at speed. That's not really what it's what it's best for. Um, you know, I use it in the house uh most often for just unattended cooking.
+
+[29:10] I do the thing I do most often in the house is steaks, right? So when I'm cooking for my family, I use a circulator for steaks all the time. And that's you know, I think I've said it like a million times here before, but the recipe is stupidly simple. I sear it. Uh I with uh I put salt and pepper on it because I'm gonna serve it, you know, pretty soon after I cook it, like within a couple of hours.
+
+[29:32] So uh if you you don't salt it if you're not gonna cook it right away. Uh I put it, I melt butter and garlic, uh chopped garlic and melt it in butter in a in the nuke, pour it into the Ziploc bag, put in the steak, seal it uh underwater, which there's uh instructions for on cookingissues.com, and uh I throw it in the circulator and then let it ride for anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half, and then whenever I finally get the kids rounded up, uh I flash it off in a super hot uh pan uh and send it out, and it's delicious and not bland because it's been seared twice. Oh yes, and I use the butter with the garlic in it to make garlic bread. So my this is my kids' favorite meal that I that I that I make for them. Um other things, like for instance, if I'm gonna do a party, uh if I'm gonna do a party, uh then I'll do hamburgers in the circulator, right?
+
+[30:19] Like kind of like I did for the eater piece, uh, but usually smaller. Uh because it allows me to do all my work beforehand and then f get the burgers out perfectly uh during the the party. But if I cook burgers for home, I typically don't do it in a circulator because it's not it's like the workflow is is not the same. I just make a different kind of burger. So when I make a burgers at home, I'll make a thinner burger, which can be cooked more traditionally instead of the kind of burgers I make in a circulator.
+
+[30:46] You know, like eggs. If I'm gonna poach eggs, if I'm gonna do 10 people and they're coming over, you know, and I'm gonna cook a bunch of eggs at 20, hell, do it in a circulator. But you know, if I have to cook like two or three eggs and I gotta do it right now, I don't use a circulator. So it's not typically something I do for hyper quick kind of meals. Uh if you're gonna have the thing set up all the time, like on a counter in a water bath, you know, then you can kind of use it to better uh effect.
+
+[31:11] And it is really good for reheating things that are uh in the uh or re-thermalizing things rather that uh are in the freezer so you can have something in a bag and you can re-thermalize it in a circulator fairly effectively, but again, it's not the quickest thing in the world. So it's really good for pre-prep stuff. Um I'll try to think more about that. Anyway, we have a caller, caller, you are on the air. Awesome.
+
+[31:32] Hey, I am one hoping you can help me. I am wondering how to cook a goat head. Um it's kind of scary looking, and I don't know, can I eat the brains? Can I what do I do with it? Alright, goat head.
+
+[31:44] Very good. So I used to eat uh as a child lamb's head quite a bit. Uh I haven't done a lot with goat's head, but they're very similar. I mean, I doubt you could even tell them apart once they've you know been killed and skin and whatnot. Um you look, the brain is delicious.
+
+[32:00] I'm not gonna lie. The brain's delicious. I don't tend to eat um brains anymore since um since uh mad cow came out and like all the you know, all the new spongiform encephalopathies have come out, because I just don't know when the next one is gonna happen. You know, so I tend not to eat brain tissue anymore, even though I find it delicious. I don't know whether I'm just being overly reactive, but the problem is is that you don't know for 10 years that there's been a problem, and you know what I'm saying?
+
+[32:26] So I tend to stay away from brains, although there to be clear, there have been no cases I know of of anyone ever human ever getting a disease from eating a go a goat or a lamb's brain, as far as I as far as I know, never. I mean, cowbrain, yes. No one has even really traced uh like elk like elk, you know, they have a thing called chronic wasting disease out in Wyoming and so Montana. So if you those elk uh they can pass this between each other and then they get basically a similar variant to a mad cow, which is basically a variant of Jakob Schreutschveld of brain eating disease. And so uh anyway, that apparently hasn't jumped human either.
+
+[33:03] So you know, I just tend scared. I I well I'm not telling you to be scared, I'm just telling you that like, you know, it the problem is is that after all that I look at the brain, it's not as appetizing as it used to be. You know what I mean? Okay. Look, my favorite part of the head is like the tongue and the nasal passages.
+
+[33:18] They're delicious. Uh now you can a couple ways you could do the head. Like one of the classic ways is to kind of like take a flavorful broth or stock and uh kind of uh poach it and simmer it in that until the meat falls off and then rip it up and make like uh you can make like a testa out of it or something like that, the same way that you would for uh the same way you would for a pig's head, right? Um but a good old-fashioned way is just roast it, you know, split it in half and roast it and then eat all uh all of the parts out. Yeah, people like here's another thing, right?
+
+[33:47] People like they're oh the eyes, the eyes really aren't that delicious. I just don't think they're delicious. I mean, I have no problem eating them. I just don't think that they taste that great. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:54] I just what about you, Nastasha? I haven't. You haven't tried it? I thought we had this discussion. Maybe someone else had the discussion with.
+
+[34:00] But it's c uh, so let me see. What the way we used to do, we used to just ro mean I was a kid, before I was tech, you know, we would just roast the sucker in the oven, and I think they served it with a tomato sauce. I'm not sure. They call it caputzel, but it was lamb's head. Uh and uh delicious.
+
+[34:13] Like all the meat and the nasal anything basically, or the most effective way, and if you don't want look, it depends on whether you want to freak out your guests. Like if your guests are like old school Italians from the north end of uh of Boston, then they won't be freaked out because just tell them it's a lamb's head instead of a goat head. Uh but you know, if if you're if the people you're gonna be eating with are gonna be freaked out, I would pick the meat off and then and then uh make it into something. But all that stuff's delicious. The tongue, the you know, the texture is different.
+
+[34:39] The great thing about meat in the head is that you have all these very various textures. You have the textures that come out of the cheeks, you have the textures in the nasal passages, you have the textures in the in the tongue, uh again if eyes if you if you like it, and brain if you're willing to eat it, uh is is all good. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, do you if you have a circulator, I'm sure you could circulate, I'm sure it'd be delicious.
+
+[34:58] I've never actually done it. I've only ever done traditional cooking techniques on it. Okay. Awesome. Tell you right in, tell us how it worked.
+
+[35:04] I love I love an old school. I haven't cooked a lamb's head in in many, many years. Actually, that's not true. I cooked one in Italy two years ago uh or th or three years ago, but I forget how we cooked it. I might not have cooked it, I might have just butchered it.
+
+[35:14] They taught me how to, when I was in Italy last, they taught me how to split a lamb's head without a saw just using a knife. It's too long to go into now, but the secret is basically you is gross, but you use the eye sockets as handles to hold it so it doesn't slip around as you're as you're smashing the knife through it and splitting it in half. I think my my hat's already cut in half. Very good. Very good, very good.
+
+[35:36] So I won't go into it, but maybe I'll try and remember. I'll try to go get the video of how you do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in. Thank you. Um Michael writes in with uh a couple of questions.
+
+[35:49] Uh he enjoys our show, Nastasha. Thanks us for doing it. Uh here's a pretty basic question I was hoping you could answer. I've always heard that you should heat your pan before adding oil. And similarly, I've always heard that you should heat uh your oil in the pan before adding food.
+
+[36:02] Are there any good reasons for this? I've often broken both of these rules and have not noticed any negative effects. Okay. So uh what's going on here is pretty simple. Uh most of the time when you want to get your pan hot for searing or something like that, the the the idea of it is is to get a lot of energy stored in the pan such that when you put your food on it, right?
+
+[36:29] It can put a big wallop into it uh and and give it a nice good sear. Now, uh most of those searing things, uh, you know, in other words, in order to store enough heat into in the uh in the pan to get it to work properly, uh you would have to heat it to a point where the oil would completely degrade uh and start smoking and have a lot of problems. So to get around that, you heat the pan up to a ridiculous uh amount, and then uh you add the um meat, and the meat you know drops the temperature of the oil and the pan down to a thing, but you have that wallop of heat. That's why they tell you to do it. So if you're not looking to get a very quick, fast crust, then there's really not uh necessarily uh a reason to do it.
+
+[37:13] Similarly, with the oil, if you're don't want to cook for a long time, you want everything to be smoking hot, you do everything uh at very hot temperature. So when I'm doing low temperature cooking, I'll tend if I'm using a cast iron pan, I'll heat the cast iron pan uh for a long time because it stores a lot of heat, even though it doesn't deliver it necessarily as quickly, and I'll preheat the oil in a side pan up to just below its kind of smoking temperature. Then I'll dump the oil into the cast iron pan, and it immediately wants to light on fire. So I throw the steak into it and sear it very quickly, and that's because I want to get a crust very, very quickly on it. Uh so if that's not what you're looking for, there's no real reason to do it.
+
+[37:48] You know what I mean? That makes sense, Sasha or no? Okay. Uh also I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the Komodo or Mushi Komodo uh or Kamado, I guess, style of grill. Uh, I'm considering purchasing one since you can do everything from high heat grilling to controlled low temperature cooking, use it as an oven, a kind of tandoor, etc.
+
+[38:06] Are they worth the money in your opinion? Okay, so what we're talking about is uh these ceramic egg-shaped grills. Uh and was that is that sneeze? Sorry. Bless you.
+
+[38:16] Uh he's a ceramic usual. Shut up. I I never say that. This is an honest to God sneeze. It's an honest to God sneeze.
+
+[38:26] Look, it's a it's a long-standing joke with me that the first time you sneeze, I say bless you. The second time, maybe bless you. The third time, shut up, shut up with the sneezing. You know, go blow your nose or something, which is which is a mean thing to say. And I don't I I always say it as a joke because I go into sneezing fits.
+
+[38:40] Okay, you ever go into a sneezing fit? Yes. Where you sneeze constantly and then like you eat like someone's trying to talk to you, and you're like you're trying to hold anyway, whatever. Anyway, uh so I you know she makes me have to be such a meanie. It's really not the case.
+
+[38:53] Anyway, so ceramic uh grills, they're kind of egg-shaped, uh, and uh and basically you load them with coal in the bottom, and they have damper in the bottom so you can open them up and they light fairly quickly because they're chimney shaped, so you get good air draw through them, and people like them. So big big uh what's it called? Big green egg is one of them. Uh Primo grill is another one of them. The Kamado or Komodo, whatever they are, uh based on a Japanese style shape is one of them.
+
+[39:19] Uh and I've never actually used one. They are not cheap, they're like six, seven hundred bucks. But uh their main thing, like a tandoor, which actually I do have some experience with, because like I said, we built one for the shoot we did uh with uh Anthony Bourdain, and I actually loved cooking in it because it takes a relatively small amount of fuel, and these have the same benefit. It takes a relatively small amount of fuel and can make a very, very high heat and can make a fairly low heat. The other great thing about the ceramics is it tends to uh stabilize over time.
+
+[39:45] So if you're gonna do like a long cook, it it stores heat you know fairly well and radiates it back, giving like a nice even heat, and you have to choose. Now the thing is it doesn't move very quickly in either direction. It took me a while to get it stabilized, but uh the coals are gonna light fairly quickly because you have this rush of air coming in and then going up like a chimney. Uh you can use a fairly small amount because it's all concentrated, it doesn't like spread out over a huge area like a kind of an unenclosed grill is. It keeps most of the heat internalized into the oven and then shoots it out of the top, which is why when you're learning to put it in a tandoor, you can burn the hell out of your hands.
+
+[40:16] These have, unlike a tandoor, have a grill in the top so that you can grill like a normal human being, although I assume you could take it out and use it like a tandoor if you wanted to. Anyway, uh so the so I, you know, I have people seem to love them. People who use them, uh, they seem to love them. I've I have never used them. I'd like to have one uh and I would probably use it half as a tandoor and half as uh something something else.
+
+[40:39] Um I wish I could say I'd had a lot of experience. Anyway, um do you think I answered that enough there, Nastasha? I mean, I have a lot of information on it, but just not enough of my own personal personal uh experience. But like I say, people seem to love them. I would love to have one anyway.
+
+[40:54] I mean I live in New York, so I can't really light the last time I lit a charcoal uh uh fire in my house, uh, it almost got me divorced. So I probably won't be experimenting with that anytime soon. Okay, so uh on the way out again, as I said, I came back from uh Colombia. Haven't been uh you know, I'd never been to South America before, and now I'm like I go there every freaking week, it seems like. Feels like it anyway.
+
+[41:15] So I got back from uh Columbia, and this time I got to do what I wanted to do before but didn't, which is make a rapid infusion, an ISI rapid infusion of fresh coca leaves, which are legal down there uh when they're used as tea. Obviously, it's illegal to have coca paste, which they make into cocaine, and obviously cocaine is illegal, but coca leaves are. Uh and so I did a rapid infusion of pisco and coca. And I'm here to tell you, like, it's a weird thing. Maybe someday we'll get into the the politics of it, but it's so weird that uh so much misery is caused by this leaf that they grow down there.
+
+[41:47] But the rapid infusion I made was delicious. Uh I made that, people went crazy, and then I went outside and bought myself a plate of Cappy Bearer meat. So it's capibra and coca. Maybe someday I'll blog about it if I ever get around to writing again. Cooking issues.
+
+[42:12] Fishers fish vodka. Oh, you daddy rat. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby.
+
+[42:37] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[43:05] Today we'd like to send a special thank you to the following restaurants for supporting No Goat Left Behind. Sambar and Mapesh. Show your support at these restaurants by ordering one of the menu items featuring goat. Goat is the most eaten protein in the entire world, yet in the U.S. we import most of our goat.
+
+[43:22] Our dairy farms are forced to kill some male goats at birth because there's no market for them. Help make a change. Support no goat left behind. The following message has been brought to you by Taste Brooklyn. Our city's finest chefs partner with farmers and local vineyards next to the green market for an extraordinary outdoor culinary festival.
+
+[43:45] Try exquisite delicacies using locally grown seasonal delights on the plaza outside Brooklyn's borough hall. Top chefs and artisans will offer sumptuous fare paired with premium wines, all to empower our neediest children to get healthy. The mighty FDNY and DSNY harbor their own culinary masters in uniform. They will cook off against the pros. Sample delicious cuisine without stressing over a reservation while supporting a worthy cause.
+
+[44:11] Taste Brooklyn's Field to Fork Outdoor Culinary Festival Saturday, October 15th, 2011, from 1130 a.m. to 3 p.m. Learn more and buy tickets at Tastesofbrooklyn.blogspot.com. That's T-A-S-T-E-S O F Brooklyn.blogspot.com
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello, hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marland, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, broadcasting live from the backyard of Roberta's Pizzeria inside of a cut-up old container can. Joined uh as usual in the studio today with Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:41] How you doing? Fine. Check this out, people. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:51] The first episode of Cooking Issues where I've memorized the telephone number. How do you like that? That's good. Nice. Uh I was thinking about it on my uh crazy bike right over here.
+
+[1:03] I managed, even though I'm a little late, you know, I managed to bike here from my house in 15 minutes flat. Which is why when I show up, sometimes you hear me at the beginning of the show and I'm coughing up a lung. It's because I'm an out-of-shape 40-year-old guy biking from Manhattan to Brooklyn in 15 minutes, right? No comment from the Nastasha. Today's show, episode 58, by the way, is brought to you again by the Modernist Pantry.
+
+[1:27] Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do uh do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has the solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cooker enthusiast. And most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[1:51] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. And it's true.
+
+[2:02] They actually they source the pectanex like on one week's notice for us. It's true. Right? Anyway, uh, where was I? Um, because I'm reading this, folks.
+
+[2:08] I don't this doesn't come out of the top of my head. Uh Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Hear that, Colombia and Brazil. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries gelatin sheets in both silver and gold strength.
+
+[2:26] Many professional chefs prefer sheet or leaf gelatin over the powdered variety for its clarity, clean taste, and ease of use. Although I like powdered for when I'm uh when I'm doing things like uh uh clarification because it's easier to measure out in smaller quantities. You know what I mean? Because powder, it's a powder. The leaf you have to cut up the leaf and anything.
+
+[2:42] Although I, you know, when I'm using whole leaves for like standard operations, I usually use the leaf gelatin because I prefer it, but for ease of use in hydro recipes, I often use powdered. And Knox brand, by the way, gelatin is fairly good quality. It's like equivalent, I think, to uh gold or even higher. Anyway, uh whatever. If your recipe calls for gelatin, give sheet gelatin a try.
+
+[3:01] Fans of cooking issues at place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of 160 Bloom Sheet Gelatin. Simply use the promo code CI58. That's cooking issues 58 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit us, visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[3:20] How's that? Good. Good. Okay. So uh remember though, call in your questions because we would appreciate calling questions.
+
+[3:26] We enjoy them. Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's 718497-2128. All right. Now, uh, anything interesting happened this week, Nastasha?
+
+[3:35] Did we do anything? I felt like we did a lot. Into the forum. Oh, yeah. This weekend we went to uh Cesare Casella, one of our uh good friends' favorite uh favorite Italian and any any kind of chef, very good host, uh invited us up to a farm that he has uh uh what do we call it, like a partnership with?
+
+[3:54] So the farm uh specializes, it's part of this uh the Center for Discovery and the Discovery School, which is uh this great place in Sullivan County that um it's basically a residence school slash uh place, home really, for uh people who are either severely autistic or multiply disabled and and basically need a constant amount of support. And one of the initiatives they have uh from a therapeutic standpoint is a farm where they Cesare grows his Keonina cattle there, which are which are fantastic, but they also have sheep, goats, chickens, uh, pigs, uh they're starting a dairy, and they grow a lot of their own vegetables. And so the idea being that uh, and and Cesare got involved as a place for his cows, but also he's uh helping them uh ensure that the food that everyone there eats is of very, very high quality. The idea being that um the better the quality of food you eat, the better your life is. We certainly agree with that, right, Nastasha?
+
+[4:48] Yeah. So uh every year he has a fundraiser with a bunch of chefs. Mark Ladner from Del Posto, uh, you know, Kevin Garcia, who else was there? Our own Marco from Robert's was there. Marco, Jesus Christ, Carlo.
+
+[4:58] I call him that because someone there called him Marco, and it sounded oh Jesus Christ, Carlo. Uh Nastasha's giving me the squinky eye. All right, all right, come on. Anyway, uh who else? Who else was there?
+
+[5:10] Uh John Frazier. Oh, yeah, John Frazier was there. Uh I feel like I'm missing a whole slew of people. I am. Anyway, it doesn't matter.
+
+[5:16] Anyway, it was a great event. Uh raised uh a lot of money for uh a good cause. I made a cocktail. It was a caraway mint julep, which I think we've mentioned on this uh on the air before the idea that Spearmint and Caraway uh they was they're brothers. The chemical that makes them that makes them taste unique.
+
+[5:34] The two chemicals are mere images of each other. They're Isomers. Anyway, uh carvone is the chemical. So we call the drink uh Tony Carvone. And we do it in a bunch of different varieties.
+
+[5:43] This was a julep carvone. We've done uh other kinds of carvones. Uh uh, we we I like them. You like them? Yeah.
+
+[5:50] A lot of people are like caraway, me. You know, listen. If I if you come to an event that I'm uh working, or anyone's working, if someone's making a cocktail, like, first of all, nine times out of ten, the people who are running the event don't give water to the cocktail guy. So don't walk up to the cocktail guy and ask the cocktail guy for water because odds are they don't have it, right, Nastasha? Yes.
+
+[6:13] They don't have it, they just don't have it. Uh go to the the wine station usually has it, right? Or there's usually a water station or something, but usually the cocktail guy, they barely gave that guy ice. They didn't even give him bar towels. He's wiping his hands off on his pants, right?
+
+[6:27] Pretty much. Yeah. Anyway. Uh another thing, don't just ask for a pour of the straight liquor unless you order the cocktail too. If you say, hey, uh, can I have a pour of the straight liquor?
+
+[6:37] They really they don't like you anymore. They don't, right? That's true. Yeah. So just get the cocktail.
+
+[6:42] Look, it's a sunk cost, right? It's not like they're gonna charge you extra for the cocktail at the event. Just get the dang cocktail, and if you don't like it, put it down somewhere, and then say, This is what you say. I enjoyed the cocktail. Can I just have a shot of the straight liquor?
+
+[6:57] And then they won't dislike you, right? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so and it's like anything. When you choose a cocktail like caraway that is a polarizing thing, which I should never do. I should only choose kind of slam dunk ingredients.
+
+[7:08] The people who like caraway came back for like a bajillion of them, right? We had a bunch of many multiple takers on that. Uh Steepy Semi seemed to enjoy the cocktail, actually. He was at the event. Um but then you know, a bunch of people just won't even try it.
+
+[7:14] It's a real heartache when you do polarizing ingredients. Anyway, uh a good time was had by all, especially my kids, who got to milk a cow. Um Nastashi, did you go milk the cow? No. I was making the cocktail.
+
+[7:30] You're not making the cocktail, you were picking mint. Making the cocktail. You are picking mint. See, I demand accuracy from everyone I work with, right? True?
+
+[7:40] True? Accuracy? Anyway. Uh this is interesting, and this has never before happened. We have uh the identical question in from two different uh listeners.
+
+[7:52] One, Johnny Hunter, and uh the other, and I have to scroll down because they're not in the same one. Uh Sam Canson um banava. Ben not ba. How you feel that bananav. Bananov.
+
+[8:04] Banana. Okay. Uh I don't know whether they know each other, um, but uh I'll read them both. The first uh the second one from uh Sam is how would one go about making a bagel cocktail? Obviously, the major challenge is transferring the base wheat bagel flavor into alcohol form, after which one would season with sesame poppy onion salt or whatever their personal bagel bagel preferences might be.
+
+[8:25] Um and then uh on a very similar note from Johnny, I am trying to make a bagel flavored cocktail, and I was wondering if you have some tips on to uh how to achieve something of a bagel flavor in the cocktail. I was thinking of using a sesame bagel, toasting slices of it and infusing it into a malt-based liquor, and then adding in other flavors. Any ideas you have would be great. That's so freaking random. You think those guys know each other?
+
+[8:47] No. Really? Yeah. Is this just like the like the week of the bagel cocktail or the like the it's like the bagel cocktail revolution? Well, uh, I will say that I have uh never made a bagel cocktail before.
+
+[8:59] Uh we did do a uh burrito cocktail once, remember that? Yeah. It was disgusting. Yeah, it grew gross, incredibly bad. We we took a uh I took a Chipotle brand, uh this is as a joke, by the way.
+
+[9:11] I wasn't intending to serve this. A Chipotle brand, uh, I believe it was a bean burrito. Um blended it in a high-speed blender with uh beer, chang beer actually, uh, and then uh centrifuged it to get the solids out, and then uh chilled, got rid of the fat, and recarbonated it. And it tasted like a Subway Italian BMT sandwich, I believe is what we decided it tasted like. It was awful.
+
+[9:32] I didn't have it. You were you were you're busy off sulking somewhere? Sulking. Yeah, it was for a pilot we did for uh for uh some a stoner thing. Uh anyway, I think I might have mentioned in the year before.
+
+[9:43] But bagels I haven't done. However, there is a lot of experience uh in the bartending and in the food world with bread and cereal infused liquids. So uh Sam Mason and uh you know was famous for his cornbread ice cream where he would soak cornbread and milk, I think, and then uh and then use the milk for ice cream. Um Christina Tozi does uh a lot of cereal-based uh ice creams. She soaks cereal in the milk and then uses the milk to make ice cream, milk and cream.
+
+[10:10] Um uh the closest in a cocktail world that I remember is uh Evan Freeman uh had a well-known uh pumpernickel uh pumper nickel raisin scotch, where what he would do is he would slice the pumpernickel raisin bread very uh thinly, uh then he would toast it and he would put it into scotch in a basically a mason jar. Uh and then after several days, he would decant it and I assume squeeze out the bread to recover the excess. Otherwise he'd be a wasteful, wasteful bastard. Maybe maybe he was a wasteful bastard, I don't know. But um uh so that is exactly what I would do.
+
+[10:43] So you could uh as per Sam's thing, just do a plain bagel and then infuse in the other spices. Uh, but I think you'd be uh just as good choosing a bagel that you enjoyed, um, like an everything bagel, let's say, uh, and then uh, you know, slice it. If you want a toasted flavor, I think it's gonna transfer better with a toasted flavor, toast it, although then it'll taste like a toasted bagel, not like a raw bagel. You could do it with a regular raw, you know, not raw, but you know what I mean, untoasted. Uh slice it thinly and let it infuse.
+
+[11:11] I would squeeze the stuff out, expect some loss because of the absorption of the liquid in into the um into the uh bagel. I would assume you get less loss if you uh dehydr at least dehydrated it before you uh before you infused it. I mean, maybe if you don't want to toast it, if you don't want those brown flavors, I would at least dehydrate it to get some of that water out so that you get a better infusion of the stuff into it, uh quicker quicker transfer of the flavor to the alcohol. But that should definitely work. Now the question is what kind of a in other words, I I wouldn't necessarily as um I think it was Johnny's name, right?
+
+[11:41] Uh uh do a a malt-based liquor. Although you could, and when we say malt, I assume you mean something like malt like scotch. But I think something like scotch is gonna be a little too strong. I would go for a little lighter flavor uh to go with your bagel, like I think it's you know, it's i it's not gonna want a very heavy, heavy flavor. I mean, I mean look, I would first I mean I know a lot of my listeners probably aren't vodka fans, but I would try it first in a high proof vodka just to see what the kind of flavor transfer characteristics are, and then move on, 'cause it's only gonna be a couple of days it's gonna take.
+
+[12:10] It's not gonna take you a month to make this stuff, and then switch over to uh, you know, a flavor that you maybe like better with a bagel. Like, I don't think bagel and gin sounds good, do you. No. I mean, if you're gonna do bagel and vodka, then you could go bloody bloody merry-ish on it a little bit. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:24] Some of the flavors that I like with a bagel, like tomato and things like that, or tomato water and a bagel, uh, vodka might be nice. Uh I'm trying to think of what else. I mean, the problem, you know. I think the problem with uh a scotch is just the oak is just gonna be too intense, and I don't know that's gonna mix, it's gonna blow the bagel out, don't you think, Sus? Uh, you know, and and any regular malt stuff's gonna be like a regular malt malt liquor, let's say like cult 45, isn't gonna have enough of a uh uh an alcohol, I think, to really get a good infusion on it.
+
+[12:49] So I think you're kind of stuck there using a lighter flavored uh product. Maybe I mean I don't think you'd want to go into something like a grapple. I'm trying to think. What do you think? Any any other ideas of liquors that might taste good with a bagel?
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+[13:02] I mean, I think vodka might work. I mean, I hate to recommend it necessarily. But look, just test it in vodka first. Yes? Yes.
+
+[13:09] Yeah. Uh make sure you seal the mason jar. I don't think you're gonna need to heat it. Uh the reason for a mason jar is just it's got a wider neck on it. And so, you know, you're not gonna have to try and shove it in and then get it out.
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+[13:18] Um Wow, that's the first time that's ever happened. Two like very strange questions that have never come up before coming out. I bet you those guys know each other. Please write in and tell me whether you guys know each other, and you're having some sort of bagel cocktail off, and you just didn't want to tell the other one that you were writing in desk, right? I mean, I mean, seriously, seriously.
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+[13:34] How's that possible? Okay, so starting with uh actually, you know what? You want to go to our first commercial break and come back? Let's go to our first commercial break. Calling on your questions to 7184972128.
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+[13:43] That's 718497-2128. Stay tuned for a live broadcast. Heritage Radio Network.com. One, two, get down. I paid the call to be both.
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+[14:27] Look at me. No what the bad mup. Look at me. No what the bad mup. Pand and cough beat above.
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+[14:56] Look at me. No what the bad mug. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all of your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[15:13] Going with Johnny Hunter's second question. Is it safe to make dry cured meats with beef if you don't have a heat step to kill E. coli at some point? I was wondering if there was another way to kill E. coli and still make good dry cured meats.
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+[15:28] Thanks, Johnny Hunter. Now, uh, this is an excellent question. Um first of all, the question is, are you what kind of dry cured meat are you trying to make? Are you trying to make a uh uh like a sausage, like a dry-cured sausage product, or a whole cut uh dry cured meat like a person or something like that? Now, uh the the problem is there's a number of bacteria that uh can grow in uh dry cured meats, and that the place to go for what the U.S.
+
+[15:55] government considers to be kind of the uh information on this is the National Center for Home Food Preservation, and they have a guide in literature uh review series, and one is smoking and curing, literature review and critical preservation points. And they talk about all the different uh kind of nasty beasties that can grow in uh your meat, like botulism, uh listeria, uh staphylococcus, and E. coli. They go through all of them, but these are going to be the major ones uh they that you have to deal with. Now, the issue with um E.
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+[16:26] coli is uh it's kind of the the the newer varieties of E. coli like O157H7 that are that are very kind of um they can be very virulent and uh difficult to uh you know they they can cause very bad infections if you get them. Um so here's the issue. Dry curing unheated meat products doesn't necessarily kill uh E. coli.
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+[16:51] Even if there is uh quite a bit of salt present and you have a significant dehydration, you will kill some of them, but it's not considered an ultimate kill step. The bad news is is that uh it doesn't take that many living bacteria to necessarily cause uh an infection. There was an outbreak of uh E. coli in uh Washington State in 1994 that was linked to a dry fermented salami product that had been infected with E. coli.
+
+[17:21] And they didn't think in the at the end of the studies that it was caused uh necessarily post cure. In other words, it was probably caused uh by meat that had been highly infected at the beginning of the cure process. And there's another study that was done that of meat that was very highly infected, did show basically, you know, uh a factor of uh I believe it was either 100 or 1,000 reduction in the in the quantity of E. coli present, but still not a total eradication over the course of time of the uh of the um of the of the dehydration and the fermentation. So the the acidity uh and the salt and the dehydration aren't necessarily enough, present enough to obliterate E.
+
+[18:00] coli. Uh and the same holds true for uh meat jerky that's especially meat jerky made out of ground meat, like ground meat strips that you then dehydrate, even though it's dehydrated quite a bit. Apparently, it's not enough of a kill step to necessarily assure that you have eradicated E. coli. Have you killed a bunch of the E.
+
+[18:16] coli? Most probably. Now, on so those guys recommend uh a heat, basically, the the the US government on meat they recommend a 145 degree uh for I think like four or ten minutes or something like that um kill step for their beef containing sausage. So a lot of people to get around this have removed beep beef from a lot of their mixes like pepperoni and what, so it doesn't have to have that because strangely it unless it's got beef in it, they don't expect you to have E. coli in it.
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+[18:43] So they they don't uh they don't ask for or require that. That said, 145 degrees for uh four minutes is a propo or whatever it is, eight minutes is preposterously high temperature to kill E. coli. Uh I mean uh ridiculously high. Uh you should be able to kill it at much, much lower temperatures.
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+[19:04] But I think the reason they do it is I don't know whether they do that step after they dehydrate it or before. If they do it after, then uh it's a lot harder necessarily. There's not as much water, so it's probably not as easy to get the killing temperatures to the uh to the bacteria. Um so that's the unfortunate uh the unfortunate of it. But if you're doing a whole muscle cut like a Prasala, it's assumed that unless you've needled or jacarded the meat, that the inside is relatively sterile.
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+[19:27] And so basically you just need to make sure that the stuff on the outside is killed. And the extreme high salt that's on the outside of a whole muscle cut like a brisala before as it's curing, I think is probably going to wipe out anything that's present. In fact, I've never, I wasn't able to find any cases from a dry cured like a brisala of a poisoning. There have been ham issues where you've had that, but I think they're mostly off of brine ready-to-cook hams, that they've had outbreaks of things like staph, um uh E. coli, uh, thing, things of that nature.
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+[19:56] So those are things um that I would uh, you know, worry worry about. Um you could also go to the FSIS, a food safety inspection services processing procedures for dried meat on the web, and it has a lot of uh a lot of information on it. Um I'm gonna get back because my study of that and of adding nitrates, nitrates and nitrites obviously are added to control bacteria like botulism and to give kind of a cured color uh to meats and a cured flavor. But while I was researching this for this question, I came up with an interesting kind of slaughter and anesthesia idea. But before I get into that, I'm gonna read an update we had from um Andy in Chicago who asked us about bluefish.
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+[20:38] Remember, he was going out and blue fishing. He actually texted us in uh during last week's show, but I didn't have time to to get to it because I didn't see it because we were on the show. So he says, not sure if you'll get this in time for uh today's show. We didn't, that's why we're doing it this week. But wanted to let you know how the bluefish testing went.
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+[20:52] Now, for those of you that know uh that that listened a couple of weeks ago, whatever, uh Andy was gonna go out uh fishing for blues among other things, and I said, please do uh an e-cogime test on bluefish, ekigime being and sp specifically spinal cord destruction, where you stick a needle down the spinal cord of the fish, uh, kill the spinal cord, and therefore stop the messages, uh, you know, the the electrical signals from going to the spinal cords to the muscles. This preserves the ATP in the muscles, which means it goes into rigor uh a little bit later and a little bit softer than it would otherwise, which preserves firmness in flesh. And since bluefish gets nasty and mushy, um I would assume that it would be a prime can and it's a strong swimmer, and usually it's the very strong swimmers that uh uh benefit a lot from uh spinal cord destruction. I thought it'd be great, but I've never been able to run a test, and so Andy ran one for us. So I'm just gonna read what he wrote.
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+[21:43] We caught three bluefish on our first night of fishing, uh, one of which you can see my friend holding in the attached pick. You can't see the attached pick, but I can. Uh, we did not destroy the brain, but cut through the spinal column and tail uh on all three spinal cord destruction, uh and on all of them. Okay, sorry. He cut through the spinal cord and the tail on all three fish.
+
+[22:02] They spinal cord uh destroyed two of them and left all of them in an ice bath in the cooler to bleed out. Um unfortunately he did not get to listen to the show until after everything happened, so he didn't remove the gills and guts immediately. We did fillet them, however, within about two to four hours of catching them. It's an interesting question of whether you should fillet a fish before or after it goes through rigor. The uh this is not what he's writing, I'm just telling you this as an aside.
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+[22:26] Uh if you fillet a fish before it goes into rigor, uh it tends to be more contracted and firmer because it never relaxes as much as if it's left on the muscles uh when it's when it's going into rigor. The idea being that the bones and the structure of the fish uh b hold the meat in place and don't allow it to uh contract as much, so they end up being kind of larger fillets. That said, it might make a firmer fillet with less gaping in the flesh after it comes out of rigor if it's uh if it's filleted before uh it goes into rigor. It's interesting interesting question, and I don't know whether it's gone under rigor. Uh Nills and I years ago ran a couple of tests, but nothing um conclusive, so I never posted on it, but it's very interesting, and there is some research on it because people want to fillet fish as soon as they can after they uh catch them for economic reasons.
+
+[23:07] Anyway, uh we did fillet them within about two hours of catching them. The non-spinal cord destruction fish we ate the first night. Very light cornmeal breading, pan fried and a bit of canola oil. Tasted a bit mushy, but good overall. One of the spinal cord destruction fish we ate the second night after 24 hours of resting, also pan fried and light cornmeal breading.
+
+[23:24] Definitely firmer, flakier, and tastier. The last one we ate the third night, cooked in a little butter, salt, and pepper without any coating. All three of us noticed a market improvement over the previous night's fish, meaty, firm, flaky, and delicious. After 15 plus years of eating bluefish, that was probably the tastiest piece of bluefish I've ever eaten. Huh?
+
+[23:40] Huh? Uh we need to run some more control tests. I'd like very much to run this test again, but it'll probably be another 10 months or more before I'm back on the Gulf Coast. Nevertheless, I think this test can be considered a qualified success, qualified only to the extent that it was only three fish and they were not eaten side by side. The darker flesh near the skin was present, uh was still present on all three fish.
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+[23:58] You know, that's like the bloodline near the thing, the kiai. Uh, I don't mind qi eye. I don't mind eating that part, but it looks a little funky. It is also pretty easy to cut out of the fillet before cooking. Do you have any thoughts on how to treat that?
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+[24:09] Uh, thanks much and look forward to hearing your thoughts, Andy from Chicago. Well, I mean, look, the fact that you like the bluefish the third day, I think is freaking awesome. Especially if you're an experienced blue f uh uh bluefish eater, you know kind of uh the problems and tribulations of bluefish after it sits around. I think uh, you know, obviously I don't there's nothing you can do about the bloodline, by the way, except for cut it out. I mean, that's it.
+
+[24:30] There's nothing you can do with it. I mean, uh, the Japanese uh with big tuna, they'll cut out the bloodline and they'll grill it separately over very high heat. I don't particularly like that preparation because it still has that kind of bloody metallic taste. They they like it, you know, they really like a soy and stuff and they grill it and everything, and they like it, but you know, whatever. It's also kind of small.
+
+[24:44] I like the taste when it's mixed in with the other parts of the fish. Now, the fact that you like that, I think this is is a really a huge opportunity for further study for any uh fisher people who listen to this. I unfortunately don't have an opportunity to fish, and my stepfather refuses to do equijemia or spinal cord destruction on the fish he catches on Cape Cod, and he primarily gets uh striper anyway. I don't know when the last time he got a blue was. But uh bluefish, I think is fantastic fish.
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+[25:13] It's a fish that um, you know, you know, I've always liked, but it's recently becoming more popular. It's our fish, it's there in abundance. If we can make this fish taste significantly better based on its post-slaughter treatment by doing spinal cord destruction, this is uh a huge opportunity for us to improve the quality of a fish that I already think is delicious. But I favor fatty fish anyway. Do you like a fatty fish, Nastasha?
+
+[25:37] She does, she does. She's not talking under the mic, so you might not be able to hear her, but she says that she does. For those of you that you know can't hear the whispered tones of Nastasha leaning into the background and playing with her purse. Anyway, what? Doing something very important.
+
+[25:49] Yeah, what? Can't say she can't say uh, yeah. Great, can't say. Super. Alright.
+
+[25:54] So uh Ryan Santos writes in. Hey Dave, what's up with snails? That's a good question. It's kind of I like an open ended question like that. What's up with snails?
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+[26:03] I've had them both great and terrible. What's the best way to cook them? Is there a low temper uh cooking solution? At what temperatures are snails and then quote unquote cooked? And is this all pointless as I only have access to canned snails?
+
+[26:15] Thanks. Well, yes, if you only have access to canned snails, then all of this is pointless because those snails have been cooked at a very high temperature already. And um, you know, they're basically those snails are uh have been sterilized in water and salt uh and you know probably a court bouillon mixture uh in a can at least 120 C for I don't know like 30 40 minutes. They're they're they're cooked. I mean they are cooked.
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+[26:41] Um but uh even if you don't have access to live snails, I know in Europe they're available because I was looking at my at my the might be the worst translated book I own called uh intensive snail farming, and it's from Italy. From uh I went to a farm called uh La Chocola, which is uh uh a slang word for snail in the north of Italy. Uh the other one's Lumaca, right? Lumaca is the real word, but La Choccul is the name of the farm, and it's uh uh uh you know it means snail in in like uh Etruscan or some crap. Anyway, so the uh by the way, my son says I say crap too much.
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+[27:12] Daddy, you say crap too much. It is true. It's true. I say crap too much? It's better than the rest of the stuff I say anyway.
+
+[27:18] So uh I have this book, and apparently in Europe, and I've never seen it in the US, I'm sure it's available. You can get fresh pack frozen snails in like frozen block form the way that you would get shrimp. And I don't think those ones have been high temp processed, so you could um you could cook with those. Occasionally in fish markets in New York, you will get um crated live snails. And the the way that they're prepared is uh they take snails and that they've been eating, and traditionally, if you catch snails, right, that you haven't been feeding yourself, uh you don't know what they've been eating.
+
+[27:50] They could have been eating plants that are poisonous to you uh but not poisonous to them. So the typical thing is you starve them out for three days, you put them in a cage with mesh so that they don't get like done in their you know, all mired in their own muck, uh, and you just let them stay in that cage for seven days, uh, with no water, nothing, and they'll they'll basically uh they'll cover themselves, they'll go in to basically a hibernating mode, they'll they'll cover their whatever that thing is called, the what is that called? The it's not a operculum, is it? Whatever whatever the flap is that covers the uh the snail, they'll they'll cover that up, it'll seal themselves and they'll go into hibernation, and then they'll last for a long time alive. So that's what they do.
+
+[28:27] They prepare the snails like that and they ship them in a box, at which point they're ready to go. You wash them off, uh, you know, with whatever vinegar or whatever, if they have any stink them, be careful with them because the shells are often quite fragile. Uh then you b uh you boil them for like three minutes in salted water or whatever. This is basically just to kill them. After you kill them, you pick off the trapdoor, uh, take the snails out, then you prepare them using any one of the normal techniques.
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+[28:52] And the normal technique is to cut off the black foot, although I've heard that that's not necessary, uh uh, you know, at the back, whatever that like the guts are in the very back of the snail. Although I like I say, here that's not necessary. And then they're simmered in a court bouillon, which is like a flavored bouillon, uh, for a long time until they're tenderized, and then repacked in the shells with your butter, with herbs, whatever. Although a lot of Italian preps actually, instead of using parsley and all that, use mint. That'd be kind of interesting, right?
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+[29:15] Minted snails? Anyway. In the Northern, they use peppermint apparently in these recipes from uh Etruscan. Anyway, Etruscan recipes. Anywho, um now, uh if you can obtain uh live snails, right?
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+[29:30] I think that's the way to go. I've done it, but I've only done it maybe four or five times, and I haven't done it in probably ten years because I I used to have a fish market that had live snails uh on a seasonal basis, and I would just buy them from them and make them, and they were delicious. We tried to cook some snails that hadn't been purged out properly um when uh when I was in Italy a couple years ago, and it wasn't a hundred percent success. So, I mean, if you can get ones that have been cleaned out and uh we also tried to feed them, which didn't work because you're supposed to fatten snails, and the Romans used to fatten them on milk, and they but you need to know what you're doing. I've had horrible luck.
+
+[30:05] About 15 years ago, I tried to fatten snails on rosemary uh because apparently paella, you know, they fed them herbs, the snails, they would feed them herbs, and then they would taste like the herbs. But I think that's horse hockey. And I talked to Steingarden, he thinks it's BS2, because these snails, not only did they not eat the rosemary, they died in my in my house in the in my apartment on 38th Street, and they stank up the entire apartment. I tried to take the few live snails that were left and cooked them, and my wife was like, Are you nuts? Are you freaking nuts?
+
+[30:32] Who the hell is gonna eat those snails after they've been smelling up our bathroom for the last you know week? Anyway, so I wouldn't recommend doing that. Uh but they are fairly easy to cook. Now, as for sous-vide or low temperature, I couldn't find any recipes on low temperature cooking of snails. That said, the issue with snails when you cook them is uh after you do your kill step with them, you take them out and you're supposed to uh boil them either a couple times or rinse them in something acidic to get rid of the mucus.
+
+[30:58] Snails produce a lot of mucus, and you want to rinse the mucus off before you uh before you uh work with them. Uh so if you're gonna do low temp, I would try to do the kill step initially, pull them out, rinse them off, uh, you know, with uh in water, salt, and vinegar, like get the prep, and then do a low temp prep. But I don't know what temperature you'd use. Like, would you do similar to an octopus? So Keller for that does like five hours at 77 C.
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+[31:21] I do it usually like just a regular simmering water for like three hours in a bag. Uh or Keller has his cuttlefish recipe at 64 degrees Celsius for 10 hours, which he says it's good, but I have no experience with. The one I'd really like to try is uh whatever Nathan Mirville does for uh gooey duck, which is if you're looking it up and you don't know what it is, it's spelled geoduck, and it's the porn starves clam. It looks like well, it's it yeah, just look it up and you'll see what it looks like. It's crazy.
+
+[31:47] It's like, you know, uh, and he made, I think, the best tasting uh gooey duck that I've ever had at his uh modernist uh dinner that he did uh, you know, at his lab, and he did it at a very low temp and not that long, basically just warm through in a CVAP oven. But I don't have a copy of Modernist cuisine, so I couldn't look it up. Anyone that has it out there, uh, write in or call in right now at seven uh seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight and tell us what uh their cooking technique is because I'd like to give that. I think that would uh be useful. Anyway, let's go to our second commercial break and we'll come back with the last questions.
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+[32:55] Open up the hook in the man. Two bumping two punk deck, head, two, two monk, head, turn it up, the man. The bears need a little walking down. Too funk in here. Open the window, let in some air.
+
+[33:53] Put a little air freshener under the drums, open up the window, let out some. I love some live James Brown. Thank you, Jack. Is that yours, Jack? That's not mine.
+
+[34:01] Who knows whose call was that? Oh, my call, yes. Yeah, nice. Uh any any live James Brown is good. You know, we used to play, was it was it always James Brown for the center, right?
+
+[34:09] For our middle track was always James Brown, and someone started complaining. Exactly. What the who the hell complains about James Brown? Look, look, if you don't like James Brown, there is something wrong with your funk motor. I think it's because they liked when Jack and I put on Phil Collins that one time.
+
+[34:23] That's right. That's it. Phil was it Susudio? It was a little bit of Genesis and a little bit of Phil. I can't remember what it is.
+
+[34:31] Phil style Genesis, like uh that's all, like really bad Genesis. And I'm not saying that's bad for all you Genesis lovers. By the way, you know who's a big Genesis lover? Famous violinist. Stop.
+
+[34:42] Let's not talk about that. No? Let me just say there's a guy who owns a three and a half million dollar violin whose only rock music that he likes is Genesis. Other than classical, he likes his Genesis. And I won't say that his last name is Bell because I I can't say that.
+
+[34:58] But when confronted by, you know, I don't know who, let's say, someone whose name is Nastasha. Really? She she literally said, Really? Phil Collins, that's all, which is, you know, one of their later and you know, what her weak songs. He's like, oh no, no, no, no, early Genesis.
+
+[35:17] Okay, getting in trouble. Alright. So the other question from San Canson Benavev uh Benanav. Sorry, Sam, that I can't get your name uh right. Someone call it.
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+[35:30] If you pronounce it to me three times in a row, I should be able to get it. And by the way, he's at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, Mad Town, which everyone who's from there loves it more than they love anything. You know, I've never I've never been. The closest I've been is to Oshkosh. Uh the International Agriculture and Natural Resources Community and Environmental Sociology.
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+[35:47] That's the hugest name for a department I've ever heard in my entire life. Anyway, uh, he also asked about uh the uh bagel cocktail. Uh and his other question, though, was what is the secret to a crispy pickle? We do lots of pickling with a variety of vegetables. However, once the product is canned, they become mushy, albeit delicious.
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+[36:07] Uh the most I have found is to salt, use ice baths, and even some recipes that claim grape or oak leaves will help keep the product crisp. Any thoughts? All right, okay. Uh so the grape leaf thing is really about um cucumbers. So in cucumbers, there is uh an there's there are enzymes in cucumbers, uh, and there's a huge long list of them that I got off of a uh uh a website.
+
+[36:34] Um a lot of like well, they're basically um they they're pectinase enzymes, like peck pectin um esterase and uh like lots of really random ones that I'm not gonna try to pronounce. Okay, exopolygalactorunase, uh endopolygalactoronase, which you know, endoxylinase, basically a bunch of aces that uh enzymes that break down um pectin and even cellulase that break down like a hemicellulose and cellulose that that destroy the structure over time unless the enzymes are destroyed. Uh so you can either destroy them or you can inhibit them, or you can remove them. So, in a cucumber, right, the grape leaves that are added apparently have something in them that can uh inhibit the activity of those enzymes. And I don't know what that something is.
+
+[37:21] I didn't have time to figure it out, but I've seen it done uh that listed not just in kind of like home nut job sites, but also in some university agricultural extension sites. So I'm assuming that there is some validity to that, although you know I don't know specifically what the ingredient is. The other thing is that um those enzymes are concentrated in the blossom end of the cucumber, which is why they say to cut off the sixteenth inch, uh a sixteenth inch or so slice at the blossom end of the cucumber. The blossom end is not the stem end. The blossom, so if you like, think about a zucchini flower, when you see it, you get those baby zucchinis with the flower coming off of them, right?
+
+[38:02] So the blossom end is actually the uh the other end, the end that sticks out of the plant. And uh from the research that I was able to do, that is where it's mostly concentrated. So taking a small slice off of that section will get rid of uh a lot of where those enzymes are. Also, if there's any flower material left that flakes off at that end, that can cause because the flowers maintain that enzymatic activity basically, even if they are dried. So uh, and there was a bunch of studies done in the 50s where they put flowers even into pickles that had already been done, and it softened those pickles.
+
+[38:33] So you really want to get rid of those enzymes. Okay? So that's one way is to cut that off. That's going to lower the enzyme. Use uh use pickles that are made for pickling because they have a lower concentration of those enzymes to begin with, are more uniform, usually thinner, and are usually kind of denser and don't have any airvoids, which are also going to lead to better pickles.
+
+[38:51] So choosing your right variety, uh pickling them right after you pick them so that they don't start softening up so that they're because they basically start getting worse the minute they're taken uh off the plant. So you want to pickle them soon after they've been harvested, choose the correct variety of pickle, uh cucumber rather. Uh this is cucumbers only, by the way, and then trim off that um that stem end. Hey, sorry. Trim off the blossom end.
+
+[39:13] Uh the other thing you can do, if you notice most recipes, they have you pouring hot liquid over uh the pickles. This is for quick pickling, that is, uh, you know, with vinegar, not like lactic acid pickles. Pour a hot mixture over it and then heat it uh to like 180 uh or just below for uh a certain period of time. The reason they start with hot is because they don't want those ends, they want to kill those enzymes right away before they can do any softening. So you hit them with that hot water and you keep them uh high enough to kill the enzyme, but below 185, where the pectins are gonna start breaking down due to heat, and you wipe out the enzymes, and this is uh gonna create a firmer pickle.
+
+[39:50] If you go over 180, really you're shafted because you're gonna soften the pickle, uh the cucumber. So those high temperatures can uh like high but not too high temperatures inactivate the enzymes and cutting off that blossom and reduces the load of enzymes in there anyway. Uh aside from that, high salt levels are gonna make it so that it stays crisper. It's gonna get more wilted due to osmosis, but it's gonna stop the uh those enzymes from from working. So those all work.
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+[40:14] In a traditional lactic acid cucumber, uh, you know, like where it's like sour sauerkraut style, you know, lactic acid bacteria, the high salt level, I think, uh stops the enzymes from working and so leads to having a crisp pickle. Uh the the other thing you can add uh now, go to regular vegetables. I wasn't able to find much on um kind of pectin breakdown enzymes in other things like cauliflower and whatnot, which make delicious pickles. But uh that said, I'm assuming high salt will work, but if you really need want to keep it crisp and you're having problems, uh try certain things are just gonna get all wilti because of the salt, and there's nothing you can do about it. Um but uh try um lime, pickling lime.
+
+[40:53] They no one uses aluminum more. I don't know why, because they don't want to put aluminum in because people are freaked out about aluminum. But uh you can use pickling lime, and the calcium in that strengthens the pectin in the cell walls and makes it such that they uh stay firm basically uh no matter what, you know, even if you cook them. So what they'll do is they'll make a lime solution with salt. And lime is you can get pickling lime, you can get uh cow from a Mexican store, you can get Thai lime paste, you can get anything.
+
+[41:17] Make a uh solution of lime, it'll settle out salt, and then put the cucumber or whatever vegetable in, let it soak, I don't know, a couple hours overnight. Uh, there's a couple of recipes online, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. Then you have to uh get once it does its calcium thing, you have to soak it in a couple of uh regular clean water baths to get the excess calcium out. I once packed in heavy calcium water cucumbers, and over the course of a couple days, they were the most disgusting things in the world. They had the most bizarre texture.
+
+[41:45] So you don't want to over-lime them, right? But then they'll stay crunchy for a long, long time. That'll work with other with anything, basically. Your last resort, and you can't get this, I don't even know why I'm telling you this. You can buy pectin methylesterase, which is the an enzyme that actually strengthens uh the cell walls of uh plants uh enzymatically.
+
+[42:05] And you can buy that. The commercial brand, it's from Novozymes, it's called Novo Shape. And I can take a blueberry or a raspberry, soak it in Novo Shape for a couple of hours, uh Novo shape in water, and then boil it and it won't even break because it stays firm enough. So it's really it's cool stuff. So those are basically your your range of up of things.
+
+[42:23] Heat treat to kill any enzymes that are present, but not uh at a high enough temperature to soften. On a cucumber, cut off the blossom end, not the stem end, uh although we might as well cut them both level, it doesn't matter. Uh and then and discard. Um use fresh uh ingredients that haven't had a time to break down. And if you need to use pickling lime uh and alum really isn't uh even though it does the same thing as calcium, isn't necessarily recommended anymore.
+
+[42:50] Uh what is that? Does that sound like good advice or no? Yes. Yes. Oh, and higher salt levels.
+
+[42:54] If you do low salt pickle, it's gonna get softer, I think, uh no matter what. Even though the salt, like I say it osmotically is gonna make it uh shrivel up a little bit. Apparently, it stops any sort of enzymatic breakdown, and also stops bacteria from growing, which can otherwise make things soft. Yes? Yes?
+
+[43:08] Okay. Now, the last thing, as I was researching um uh nitrites for today's uh thingamajig when I was doing cured meats, uh I came across an interest interesting um an interesting thing. You familiar with the blue people of Kentucky? No? So there used to be uh uh famously a family, I believe their name was the fugates of Kentucky, the blue fugates of Kentucky, and they had a uh a congenital, or they have still a congenital uh disease uh called uh what's it called?
+
+[43:38] Uh I'll look I'll look it up. But basically the idea is that their hemoglobin isn't oxygenated enough because they don't have uh the proper enzymes to um take uh deoxygenated hemoglobin and reoxygenate it at the same rate uh that we do. Uh and so here we go. It's called uh methemoglobinemia. Uh and so they were blue because their their their blood didn't have as much oxygen and they were very pale people and they lived in Kentucky.
+
+[44:04] So they had this whole thing and they were known as the blue fugates of Kentucky or the blue people of Kentucky. They since figured out how to cure that so they're not they're not blue anymore. But where does it where is that where does that bring me because it turns out that uh there's in Australia they're researching a technique to induce uh methemoglobinemia in wild pigs by feeding them sodium nitrate which is the same thing that we cure meats with and pigs have a very low level of uh the enzyme that uh that basically convert it's called um methemoglobin reductase that uh converts methemoglobin back to oxygen carrying hemoglobin so they have a low much lower level of this enzyme than we do so uh basically they feed them uh sodium nitrite pills in hog baits and they've called the baits check this out are called hogon hog on hogon baits there are 20 grams of microencapsulated sodium nitrates uh spread throughout uh you know uh basically baits that they put in the forest and what's uh awesome about this hog bait is that they eat it and their blood no longer carries uh oxygen right because they they have uh too much uh met hemoglobin in but they don't feel distressed they go into basically they get woozy and they fall asleep they pass out and then they die. So uh we may and like I've said many times is that you I don't know whether I've said it here but many times I can't remember whether I say here or not. Your body doesn't sense in pigs' bodies.
+
+[45:33] They don't sense lack of oxygen, they sense excess carbon dioxide. So the pig is not going to feel stressed. They don't freak out uh when they're being killed with uh sodium nitrite. Um so I was thinking, because we've been thinking a lot about anesthetics for uh fish. I've done a lot of work with anesthetics for fish, anesthetics for crustaceans, um, and with proper slaughtering uh practices, but this is basically only being used for um killing wild hogs in a humane manner.
+
+[46:03] You know what they've feeding them before? Rat poison. How nasty is that? Feeding them rat poison, which is basically causes you to bleed out internally, which can't be pleasant. Um, and um I'm wondering whether or not like this can be used for a uh for humane slaughter practice, basically anesthesia for regular pigs that are going to market.
+
+[46:23] Um they pass out and die within one hour without any noticeable. There's a spike in certain biological mark markers like cortisol, which are normally can uh added with stress, but uh the other biological markers weren't changed, and it could just be due to the fact that of the increased um uh the the shift of oxygen in the blood. Anyway, so I'm gonna leave you guys this week with that idea of is there a possibility for more humane slaughtering of pigs by basically putting them to sleep with what amounts to a food grade uh anesthetic, sodium nitrite, and can this be feasible? I'd like any feedback from our readers, uh listeners rather, and this has been cooking issues fish. Oh, you didn't Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[47:22] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as the schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Today we'd like to send a special thank you to the following restaurants for supporting No Goat Left Behind.
+
+[47:52] Sambar and Mopesh. Show your support at these restaurants by ordering one of the menu items featuring goat. Goat is the most eaten protein in the entire world, yet in the U.S. we import most of our goat. Our dairy farms are forced to kill some male goats at birth because there's no market for them.
+
+[48:09] Help make a change. Support No Goat Left Behind. As a part of National Food Day, St. John's Bread and Life, Brooklyn's innovative and lifesaving food service program based in Bedford Stuyvesant, is inviting Brooklyn chefs and purveyors to learn about how the organization is marrying the procurement of old-fashioned, locally grown organic produce with the latest technology to deliver healthy, cost effective meals to those in need. St.
+
+[48:35] John's Bread and Life, located at 795 Lexington Avenue, will hold an open house on Monday, October 24th from 6 30 to 8 30 p.m. Visit www.foodday.org to sign up for the event.
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+[0:04] Broadcasting live from Robertas in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Joined to you with you us today in the studio by Nastasha the Hammer Locals.
+
+[0:34] Hello, Nastasha. Hi. She just got back uh from uh California. She was visiting home uh in the LA region because her sister was on the homecoming court at her high school homecoming thingamajig, correct? Yeah.
+
+[0:47] Didn't win though, right? No. But you're you feel glad that she didn't win. Yeah, I'm happy. You're happy that she didn't win?
+
+[0:52] You care to tell us why? Because you have to go back home and crown the new princess. Yeah, which is weak, right? It's weak. It's weak.
+
+[0:58] Who wants to go back to high school after they've already graduated? It's lame. Well, unless you're robbing the cradle. But that wasn't me. I never did that.
+
+[1:04] Anyway, um, right or wrong. Phil Bravo. Wow. Friend of ours, Phil Bravo, well-known cradle robber, folks. Well known cradle cradle rubber.
+
+[1:14] Can you hear me? Yes. That was working. Uh I was nominated for Homecoming King. You were?
+
+[1:18] Wow. That's awesome. Where did you where where were you in the I lost? It was in Long Island. Are you also glad that you lost?
+
+[1:24] You didn't have to go back to uh high school and crown the next one. I don't think I had to do that. That sounds crazy. That's like an LA thing, maybe. Sounds like it.
+
+[1:30] You know what I heard? I heard from Nastasha that the Queen did get to ride down the boulevard in a low rider with the hydraulics pancaking the whole way down the down the tarmac. How awesome is that. I've always wanted to get into a lowrider with the hydraulics. They are sweet.
+
+[1:45] Was it green? Was it green paint with green with the sparkly green? Yes. Oh, geez. There's another lifelong dream.
+
+[1:50] I still have time, folks. I'm not dead yet. Uh okay. So call in all of your questions, cooking or otherwise, to 718 497 2128. Memorize 718 497 2128.
+
+[2:04] Today's episode is brought to you again. They must love us, Dust. They do. They do. By the Modernist Pantry.
+
+[2:10] Today's show is I'm just gonna read it. They write they they wrote what I just said, which is today's show is sponsored by the Modernist Pantry. You gotta see you know, it's a pain that when you're reading, you can't actually pay attention to what you're saying as you're reading it. That's why sometimes I'll stop my reading voice and start making comments. Which is dumb.
+
+[2:23] Alright, do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks. Only five bucks.
+
+[2:39] Hey, five bucks, that's cheap. All right? Hey, saving you time, money, and storage space, whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask.
+
+[2:51] Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. There's gotta be some country they can't ship to. Yeah. Right? Who knows how they do it?
+
+[3:01] I have no idea. What does it mean inexpensive? I don't know. I'd like to know. Someone just some someone from another country order from these guys and tell me tell me.
+
+[3:07] Like New Zealand. Uh uh. Anyway, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Uh Modernist Pantry now carries eight types of methylcellulose in various grades and viscosities. Fans with cooking issues at place in order of $25 or more before next week's show.
+
+[3:23] We'll get a free package of high viscosity methylcellulose. Simply use the pro uh promo code CI59 when pricing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit it visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay, listen, methylcellulous, interesting. Uh first of all, it's the only hydrocolloid that I use that isn't actually all natural.
+
+[3:44] Methylcellulose doesn't is not a naturally occurring product. What they do is they take cellulose from like, you know, cotton or whatever, wood pulp, whatever it is, and uh they modify it uh to have certain properties. Now, what I would like the modernist pantry guys to do is specify not a viscosity necessarily, but exactly what type of methylcellulose we're talking about. Most chefs use uh methylcellulose, and here's one for you hydroxypropol methylcellulose from uh Dow. Uh, you know, the you know, Dow, like big, the big company DAO.
+
+[4:15] And their brand name is methocel, right? M-E-T-H-O-C-E-L, methyl cell. And the viscosity is only one of the things you actually need to know about methylcel. It's also the type uh that it is, because they have uh kind of widely differing properties depending on whether it's methylcellulose, hydroxypropo methylcellulose, what the chain length is, etc., exactly what series it is. Now, uh the the super high viscosity ones are often used uh because the interesting about methyl cells, methyl cell uh gels when it heats and melts when it when it cools down.
+
+[4:46] So this is the the hydrocolloid of choice. If you've ever been to a restaurant or seen an application on the on the on the television set, uh where someone uh takes a liquid and squeezes it into a broth and it sets up into like a noodle or a gel right away into a hot broth. Typically that's a methyl cellulose is what they're what they're doing there, methocell, a Dow methyl cell, and typically a high viscosity one so that it doesn't bleed out. However, I don't ever do that. What my favorite methyl cell is not actually a high viscosity methyl cell, it's methylcel F like Franc 50.
+
+[5:17] Methylcel F50. And aside from sounding like a like an expensive Ferrari, it does sound like a Ferrari, right? Methylcel F50. Anyway, um, it's not. What it is, is it's a low to medium viscosity methyl cell that has uh amazing whipping properties.
+
+[5:31] So you add like eight grams per liter of this stuff to whatever, you know, fruit, puree, juice, whatever. And then you uh in a blender, and then you put it into like a kitchen aid with a balloon uh whisk on it, and you whip it just like egg whites, and the stuff whips up just like a meringue. This is what I believe this is what Sam Mason way back in the day used to use to make his uh he used to make like uh like foams that had like the texture of like a Guinness head. He was looking for the texture that was on top of a Guinness beer, was what he was shooting for. He used to get it with this.
+
+[6:02] I forget whether he actually used Guinness as the foam with F50 or not. I can't remember. Anyway, so it makes up into a nice, almost like an egg white meringue. And here's the cool part. If you pipe it onto uh a silpat or whatever, a piece of acetate, stick it in a dehydrator or in an oven that's set to dehydrate, uh they don't fall.
+
+[6:20] They gel up a little bit and solidify, and they turn into these amazing meringues that disappear in your mouth. They're not like a regular meringue and have a little bit of a proteiness, they boom disappear in your mouth, and they're amazing. They can be made with any flavor, and they're uh they're vegan, not that you know I don't know, they they can be vegan. Nastasha made a vegan face. I wish you could see her vegan face.
+
+[6:39] It's like the equivalent of like, you know, the nose crinkles up a little bit, and it's like someone made an off smell or something in the room, which is unfortunate because I don't feel that way about other human beings the way Nastasha does. That's why we call her the hammer. Louise. What? You don't like vegans very much.
+
+[6:52] What? I don't have anything against. I think V, look, it's like it's like I don't it's unfair. It's unfair. I uh it's difficult for me to cook for vegans, right?
+
+[7:04] So it's it makes it it's very hard for me to cook for vegans. And you're upset with their life choices. I wish they hadn't made that life choice. Yes, I do wish they hadn't made that life choice. But it's nothing against them personally, you know.
+
+[7:14] Um you know, I have how many vegan recipes do I have that I actually make that are vegan? Like two. Two. I have two. So if you come to my house and you're a vegan, please let me know in advance, and I'll make one of my two recipes that's vegan.
+
+[7:28] One of them is actually a delay. You know, you can you could take a lot of uh good Indian food and substitute out olive oil for ghee and get a passable result. I mean, I guess that's what a lot of people do. I don't know, who knows? Why why the hell are we talking about this?
+
+[7:38] This has nothing to do with anything. Metacellulose. Metalcellulose, vegan. It just happens to be the one thing I use, it's not all natural. Uh the other the other one I don't use that a lot of chefs use, uh, is propylene glycol allogenate.
+
+[7:49] It's not natural. Not unholy, just not natural. Doesn't exist in nature, right? Being the definition of natural. All right.
+
+[7:57] So, call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. Okay. Uh Dave and Company, hi again. My hunting friend wants to make a country ham out of venison. Would the hanging time be comparable to pork?
+
+[8:09] Or would you use it and would you use a different cure? Uh I told him you might want to incorporate juniper berries or gin into the cure. Am I full of crap? Thanks, Derek Bodkin. Well, I wouldn't put well, that depends.
+
+[8:20] I mean, I guess you could put gin in. Um I mean, I I typically for a country ham kind of an application wouldn't be using any liquid, so it wouldn't be kind of brined in. But I mean it's not gonna hurt, it's gonna evaporate fairly quickly. But I would, you know, I would use you could add whatever spices you want. I mean, um, you know, so delicious, uh, delicious something with juniper in it that you might want to taste would be speck.
+
+[8:40] Speck's delicious, right? Mm-hmm. You like Speck, right? You know what though, it's one of those things. I enjoy the Speck for which is basically what they'll do is they'll take a ham leg, they'll roll it out flat, they'll cure it flat, which means it cures a lot faster than it would if it was left in a whole roll.
+
+[8:51] Uh, and they typically smoke it, and it's uh typically I believe juniper, right? Is the flavor in it? Yes. And there's there's one, there's a whole, you know, from Alto Latigi up in the north of Italy, and then also across the border in the in the kind of uh Austrian-Germanic kind of creation, their Speck. And I happen to prefer the Italian one because the one that's typically uh north of the border is a little bit drier, the ones we get, at least the ones that I've had.
+
+[9:15] And so uh Speck is delicious, and that's got juniper in it. The trick with curing venison is venison is not uh it doesn't have typically as much fat in the meat as would something like pork. Um I would assume that it would cure closer to beef in terms of uh like a presala. I think it would cure closer to that kind of a situation. So you know, if you want it to cure for the length of time that a ham would cure for, you're gonna need to protect it from drying out too much, right?
+
+[9:45] So uh, you know, what you could do is salt it down uh and get the salt level kind of the the way you want. It's gonna take some practice. I'd have to look up uh exactly what's what's going on. Um but uh I would after it after it starts to dehydrate a bit, I would cover it with fat, uh like with a layer of fat, or maybe you could go uh maybe you could go um what's the word I'm looking for? Like, you know, parma style, where after it ages for a certain bit, they'll put the face of the meat, which is the part of the meat that shows it doesn't have fat, they'll take lard and I forget, like is it rice flour or something?
+
+[10:16] They'll take lard and something like rice flour and work it over the face of the ham there so to stop the drying out. So I would do that so that way you get the the moisture level that you want, and then you'd cover it up and let it dry out uh, you know, it so it wouldn't dry out too much. And I think it should work. I think that would be great. I mean, juniper sounds great.
+
+[10:31] I might even smoke it a little bit with new sauce. Yes. It'd be delicious. And it sounds like a very good alternative to uh, you know, the venison jerky that everyone makes. Of course, also, if your friend is a hunter, and I don't know whether we've already discussed this because I can't remember which questions you sent in, please go buy an immersion circulator.
+
+[10:46] If you're gonna take the trouble to buy a weapon, get a hunting license, go sit in a tree for like a day and a half, waiting for a deer to come by that's big enough that you want to shoot it in the in the neck and take it home. Spend the 800 bucks on an immersion circulator so that you don't have to turn everything into sausage and chili, all right? Because uh venison cooked in an immersion circulator, not for too long necessarily. If you cook it too long, sometimes it can get gamey. But venison cooked in an immersion circulator, even like an older one, is gonna be freaking delicious.
+
+[11:17] And I know this not from theory, but from actual practice, not of my own stuff, because I wish I could hunt, but I don't have a hunting license. I don't I want one kind of pretty badly. I want you know, I'd like to I don't really want to sh I don't really necessarily want to shoot a deer. I really want to get uh things that you can't buy otherwise. I mean, I want to get like grouse and woodcock and all those things.
+
+[11:34] Anyway, Nastasha once saw me eat a grouse and a woodcock and a teal in uh in uh England because they can serve them in the restaurants in England, and it had like the little babies in it and everything, and I thought she was gonna quit working for cooking issues because I was literally like like there was blood there's blood all over my face, like cooked semi-cooked innards, guts and blood all over my face because I was like kind of burying my I was burying my face in the carcass of the verge, trying to eat them out and and spitting the p think pink p think spitting out the the the babies on the plate. The head on the plate, and I thought that was the end of it until the waitress came over and said, You're not gonna eat the head. Well, she knows what's up. Uh anyway, so as we've said on the show many times, immersion circulator should be uh Hunter's best friend. Like, it should basically, when they give you the license, they should say, Do you have an immersion circulator?
+
+[12:25] Would you like to buy one? Do you know what I mean? Oh, speaking of which, before we go to the break, uh, a couple of weeks ago, somebody called in and was like, I have an immersion circulator, but what the hell am I gonna do with it? Basically, remember that? It was like, why like what am I gonna do with it for normal family meal that's not like uh you know not competent?
+
+[12:43] Yeah. Well, I did another one over the weekend. Uh, so uh local, no offense in case you're the owner of a fine fair out there, but the local crappy like grocery store, key food sea town style thing is fine, called fine fair where I live. You know, it's just like the local, you know, grocery store. And uh so I went in there and I bought your regular run-of-the-mill sausage, and I cooked it for family dinner because you know, a couple weeks ago we went to Cesare Cosella's farm, the Thanksgiving farm, where they, you know, they help um multiply disabled and autistic uh kids and adults uh through therapy, including working on a farm and whatnot.
+
+[13:17] Anyway, uh so they gave us they have this kabbocha squat, which are s preposterously delicious. I mean, just absurdly delicious. And so I cooked those because they gave us a whole bunch along with uh some Brussels sprouts, very good. And they told us to cook the leaves on the top of the Brussels sprout stalk, which were surprisingly good. They take a long time to cook, kind of like collards, uh, but incredibly uh delicious.
+
+[13:39] So we had those along with potatoes that they so we had a we had a Thanksgiving farm meal, except for the nostage. So I took the sausage and uh I threw it in a Ziploc bag with a little bit of oil, threw that sucker in the immersion circulator at 60 degrees uh Celsius, which is 140. You should all remember that, by the way. I don't care whether you cook in Fahrenheit or Celsius, you should remember that 60 is 140 and vice versa. Anyway, cook it, threw it onto my salamander.
+
+[14:01] If you're not on the salamander, you can I don't know, grill it, do whatever, for like you know, a minute on a side, and they were like the best dang sausages in the world. And people were like, Oh my god, where'd you get that sausage? I was like, I bought it at the fine fanfare for nothing. But because I cooked it right, it was delicious because typically you overcook a sausage and you're relying on the extra fat on the inside of a sausage to make it taste good. What you should do is just not overcook it from the beginning.
+
+[14:22] Now, when Philip Preston from Polyscience, our good buddy, was putting together the cookbook that we gave him recipes for for uh his immersion circulator, he uh we we gave him that recipe. We're like sausage. You should have sausage in there. And he's like, Well, why? I don't understand.
+
+[14:36] Like, why do you need to cook a sausage in an immersion circulator? And it's because I can go by the cheapest my mouth, not the curse. Anyway, and uh, you know, it's not bad quality. I would never buy bad quality for my family, but it's like you know, inexpensive stuff, and you treat it right as a big thing. Did you do it in beer?
+
+[14:49] What? Why didn't you do it in beer? Uh oh, I told him he could do like brats, sprats and beer, but I just did it in olive oil. I didn't want to like poach these things out. I just did them in a ziplock in olive oil at 60, uh, you know, for like, you know, whatever.
+
+[15:01] I wasn't even paying attention to it, and I threw it. And then you know what I did? Uh I didn't want to fire up my circulator for the leftovers. So I took uh a Ziploc bag and I threw, and this is an AirVay special, I threw mashed potatoes into the Ziploc, squished it flat, sealed it. So you s I here's the trick.
+
+[15:17] You squished the mashed potatoes in the Ziploc bag down to a layer like maybe like three-eighths of an inch thick. And then I threw it into a pan of simmering water, like a frying pan of simmering water, and they heated up like lickety split without uh without you know having any burn spots on the bottom. They were hot all the way through, and I didn't lose any moisture off of them, so it was perfectly reheated mashed potatoes, which are a pain. It's a pain to reheat mashed potatoes and not have them turned to crap. Uh so I did that.
+
+[15:43] So anyway, and you could do that in the immersion circulator if you already had it running. In fact, what we do now in classes is we make our mashed potatoes uh, you know, in advance, like in the morning, pack them into zips or into into uh uh vacuum bags, but not without the vacuum meat, guess you could vacuum them, and then uh at the last you know, a couple of minutes, we squish it real thin, throw it into the circulator bath and reheat it, and they're perfect. Because don't you hate when you're making mashed potatoes and do you ever make mashed potatoes? Yeah, yeah. Don't you hate it when you're always worried about getting them done at the last minute?
+
+[16:09] You're like, oh my god, the mashed potatoes, either they're gonna get cold, or then you have to stick them over a water bath to keep them hot, and the water bath boils over. It's always a pain. Mashed potatoes are always a pain to finish off when you're finishing off the rest of your food. At least if you care about them the way I do. I don't know, maybe Nastasha's one of those people that beats the hell out of them in the kitchen aid until they turn into a soupy gloop.
+
+[16:27] Are you one of those people? My mom hand mashes them, so there's all the the leftover chunks of potato that didn't get mashed. She's making the vegan face, so you don't like the leftover chunks of uh no, not at all. I mean I look because I am who I am, and people like my chef friends would make fun of me if I didn't. I use the food mill to make the mashed potatoes.
+
+[16:44] But honestly, I think one of the easiest things if you don't have a food mill, the potato ricers work really, really well. The problem is I always burn my hand when I use them. You know what I'm talking about? The potato ricers? They don't leave any little chunklets, they're pretty good.
+
+[16:56] Um I also uh diverge from most of my chef friends who use all they use only butter. But I don't necessarily like I don't want to look, people are gonna call me and tell me I'm a jerk, but I'm not one of these guys. I feel like I need to put so much freaking butter in that I can actually lubricate the potatoes entirely with butter alone. So I actually add cream and butter. What about you, Stuzz?
+
+[17:15] Yeah, we add milk. That's for suckers. But like I add cream and butter, but people are like, why do you want to add cream? Why do you want to add all that water? It's just gonna ruin it.
+
+[17:22] Just add more butter. But I don't really want like, you know, like the Robichon potatoes that are like half butter. And I don't really necessarily I don't need that. You know what I mean? I don't know.
+
+[17:29] It's not my thing. So I add a mixture of cream and butter. Uh throw it in the ziploc and keep it hot. So those are some more things to do with your immersion circulators, and I spent hardly any time talking about the venison, but that's life in the big city. Let's go to our first commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[18:52] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So let the record show that vegan face was originated on this show. Yeah when everybody else starts using that.
+
+[19:08] Hey, you made your vegan face. You think that's gonna be that one's gonna be a good idea. If Jack has anything to do with it, he will, he's gonna get all he'll get all the hosts, all the hosts of all the shows. By the way, uh today is a it's literally Roberta's is a one-man Jack Insley show today. Jack Insley being our our intrepid engineer here.
+
+[19:26] Roberta's is shut down for the day. Yeah uh because the entire staff is off racing go-karts in New Jersey. Is this true or false? Correct. I spoke to the chef of Robert's Carlo a couple weeks ago when I was at the farm.
+
+[19:40] And he told me this is going to happen. He didn't tell me it was going to be on a Tuesday. And here's the thing. They have a no they have a no drinking while on the go-kart policy, which is very wise. Very wise.
+
+[19:51] Do you think that's wise, Jack? With them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No drinking and go-karting. So, but they have apparently, and I don't know how this shook out, uh, they have a no, it's close track, by the way, folks.
+
+[20:02] Close track. They have no uh getting on the go-kart drunk policy. So the Roberta's idea was to get everyone shellacked on the bus ride down. So my that makes sense. Yes.
+
+[20:14] So my prediction for the fight is pain, as uh clever lang would say for all of you Rocky 3 fans out in the audience. Well, I'll be making your Morigand uh salad, so hopefully it's good. Yeah, Jack went and fired up the pizza oven so that uh I've never seen his place this empty. It's crazy, right? Spooky.
+
+[20:30] Yeah, I was like slamming on the door because I I can't be bothered to read things that are around me, like signage. And so, like the door said, you know, uh call Jack if you need to get in, but I didn't see it. Okay. This, by the way, you know what sucks? This is our Halloween episode, and we didn't think about anything to do for Halloween.
+
+[20:45] I forgot that Halloween's on the Monday. It's a little late to celebrate for Halloween on on a Tuesday. No one gives a crap about Halloween after it's over. By the way, my son says I say crap too much. You do.
+
+[20:56] Anyway. Uh speaking up of my younger son. Uh my older son, who's obsessed with the MTA uh and all things trained, stuff he doesn't want to be on them, wants to be an uh he wants to be a Metro North ticket taker, i.e. conductor this year. Try to go buy a Metro North hat, folks.
+
+[21:12] Metro North is our commuter railroad. Try to. Please. Nastasha, who's a genius at this sort of thing. So, like, if I want to find by the way, if I want to find you, whoever you are, like she will find you, get your personal number and or your assistant's number and start hounding them.
+
+[21:27] So please don't like ask me to get her on your case because she will track you down. Found a uh found a conductor hat, and I have a little miniature conductor's hat. I think it might even be too small for my ten year old, though. I don't I didn't think there were human beings this small. I don't think they're supposed to fit on your head.
+
+[21:44] Don't they just wear it like perched? They're not freaks. They're they're human beings who are taking tickets. They wear this as their as their hat. Does it fit around?
+
+[21:52] Yes, it's a hat. Like it oh my god. Oh my god. All right, anyway. So uh I guess we will tell you stories of Halloween, but I wish we could get a Halloween.
+
+[22:00] Please, someone call in with a Halloween question to 7184972128. All right. Okay. Hey, Nastasha and Dave. Thanks for answering our question on bagel cocktails.
+
+[22:11] Sam and I worked together, so it was just one group of people trying to work bake make bagel cocktails. Not that the entire world is suddenly interested in bagel cocktails, which would be quite strange. And we talked about sending in a question, uh, and we both ended up sending in the question. Anyway, we enjoy the show, and it's been hugely helpful in exploring new ideas and techniques. Best Johnny Hunter from the Underground Food Collective.
+
+[22:29] Well, that's great, but did the bagel cocktail work? Well, they sent that the day after. So they didn't have time to try it. Maybe. All right.
+
+[22:39] Okay, another follow-up. Hi, Nastasha and Dave. This is from Andrew. Does someone else write in this or is just Andrew wrote this in? Just Andrew.
+
+[22:45] Okay. Uh in episode 58. I like that. People know what episode it is, because I have no idea. It's all iTunes.
+
+[22:50] Yeah, iTunes. By the way, check this, check this out. iTunes, right? You apparently they will not tell you. I'm trying to figure out like whether or not anyone's listening to this program or not, right?
+
+[23:01] So I'm like, Jack, can you call up the iTunes people and figure out like whether anyone is downloading this? And iTunes won't give out that information. Isn't that crazy? Does that make any dang sense? No.
+
+[23:13] It makes no dang sense, right? Nothing. Makes no sense. Okay. In episode 58, they've wondered what t uh what temperature modernist cuisine calls for for cooking gooey duck uh low temperature.
+
+[23:21] And they list it as barely cooked. According to their best bet chart, they prefer 50 degrees Celsius for 30 minutes. Okay. Uh in that same episode, low temp snails are mentioned, and the same chart in Modernist Cuisine recommends 68 degrees C for five hours for a tender braised snail. I hope this helps, and thanks for the great show.
+
+[23:38] I've learned a great deal from listening. Thanks. Um Andrew, uh, before I get let me finish this before I finish out what Andrew said. Okay, I like I said last week, I think I've had uh m um Miravold and Young's and you know Maxim's and Grants, that's the whole crew there, or some of the whole crew there. I've had their gooey duck, gooey duck being the very manly clam, we'll say.
+
+[24:00] Is that fair? It's a very it's a very, very manly clam. Anyway, uh yes. Uh and so um it's the most suggestive food, I think that we'd like a penis. It would be a good time to press pause and Google gooey duck.
+
+[24:13] Yeah, spell geoduck. Pronounce gooey duck. Anywho, like the the good folks at the end Hoda had one on their show the other day. They did not. By the way, Nastasha just admits on the air that she is a regular I don't know where she finds the time, because you know, I don't know, but she watched the first 15 minutes.
+
+[24:32] What do you have against the rest of their program? It's crap. Wow. Calling out Hoda and Kathy Lee. They don't care what we think.
+
+[24:39] Anyway, uh, I used to watch Kathy Lee by back in the day when she was with the Regis. Regis and Kathy Lee. That's bringing it back. I used to be, man. The summer before I, the summer I graduated college, I did exactly three things.
+
+[24:52] I worked on my 1976 Pontiac Bonneville, right? Bondoing the quarter panel so that I could get it past inspection and making sure that it worked. Paid $400 for that car. Best $400 I ever spent. Car got exactly 10 miles to the gallon, whether it was on the city or the highway.
+
+[25:07] Like a couple of months into owning it, a James Brown tape got got jammed into the tape deck, and I couldn't ever get it out again. So like whenever the car was running, James Brown was playing. We eventually spray painted it gold and zip tied uh bull horns on the front of that thing. Thing was amazing. I love that car.
+
+[25:23] Really good pickup. Anyway, so I did that. Uh I deep fried uh potatoes and habanero chili rhinos because I was training myself for heat eating at the time. And I watched Regis and Kathy Lee. Uh oh, and ABC's daytime soaps.
+
+[25:38] And that was basically it. That was the whole summer. My wife was like, what the hell? I mean, she wasn't my wife at the time. She was my girlfriend at the time, but you know, she was almost like, man, what the hell's wrong with this guy?
+
+[25:46] What am I gotten into? Anyway. So uh their gooey duck is incredibly delicious. They cut it into like kind of long noodles and they cook it in a CVAP oven, I guess at 50 degrees C, which is just warming it, really, uh, for 30 minutes, and it's just fantastic. Very, very tender.
+
+[26:03] But they cook their snails at a much higher temperature. So 68. Once you go to 68, I mean, I don't see why you don't just take it all the way up to 85. I don't really see what the big many, man. I'd like to try it.
+
+[26:13] I'd like to try the difference between a 68 Celsius snail for five hours and just like a regular simmer in a bag, let's say, for, you know, for like two hours, see what the difference is. But if that's what they say works, I'm sure they tried it. I'm sure they had one of the 15 cooks that was working on that thing sitting there with like snail after snail for days figuring it out. Uh right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[26:32] Isn't that pathetic that we don't own a copy of Modernist Cuisine? Don't even. It's pathetic. It's pathetic. Okay.
+
+[26:38] Andrew is also wondering if uh we are still interested in some help uh for blog posts. And I would gladly lend my time and effort. Okay, here's the thing. I have come to a realization, people, and that is I have look, I have roughly 15 to 20 blog posts in my head that need to get written. Right?
+
+[26:57] Roughly 15 to 20. That I just don't have time. I'm just being pulled in all kinds of different directions. Uh I think at this point, if there are people out there, and they would have to go through Nastasha and give a sample of their writing or whatnot. But if there are other people who think that they want to write cooking issues style posts, meaning pedantic.
+
+[27:20] Uh, you know, but like, you know, kind of, you know, the style. If you've ever been on the blog, cookingissues.com, you know, you know the style. The style is what it is. It's cooking issue style stuff. I think at this point we could probably open it, open it up.
+
+[27:31] What do you think? This is the first I've heard of this. I know. So we would have guest writers? Yeah.
+
+[27:36] I mean, what do you think? I mean, now that we we we're gonna own it. That's it. Like we own it. We can do whatever we want.
+
+[27:42] The people who are writing for it no longer have to be working for the French culinary. That's true. I mean, uh I'm just considering between between me. Look, look, you want to does anyone care about this? Here's the post.
+
+[27:52] Here's the post that like the school gonna say. What are they gonna say? They don't read it anyway. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[27:57] So, like, look, I have a I have a bunch of clarification posts on uh Kisel Sol and Kaisan, which are two new clarification aids that I use. I have a way to clarify now uh things like uh lime juice to get pretty good yields without a centrifuge even. I've worked on it without a centrifuge. But grapefruit juice, it's no problem. I'll be very close to getting centrifugeless uh clarification for lime juice.
+
+[28:14] Gotta write about this. I have to write, there's a bunch of uh like book review things I have to write on um there's just a whole boatload of stuff on more infusion techniques I have to write about. I mean, there's just a bunch of stuff that I have to write about. I just don't have time. And you know what?
+
+[28:32] Maybe this. Maybe it's not even stuff that I necessarily want to write about. If someone else can come up with a cooking issue style post on their own thing, right? And by the way, I'm not if you have an idea and you can write it up in a cooking issues kind of a way, I'm not gonna take credit for your idea. I just don't feel that that's appropriate.
+
+[28:48] Do you? No, yeah, no, you're right. But yeah. It needs to be appropriate posts. I don't want some dummy writing something, you know.
+
+[28:57] Hey, Nastashia just called all of you guys dummies. No, but I I'm just imagining this stuff will get is she making the vegan face? She's making the vegan face. I'll tell you something. Like, uh, well, that's why we call you the hammer, Nastash.
+
+[29:08] Hey, you you know, you are the you're the hammer. You get to decide like whether or not this stuff. Okay, what I would do before you go bother writing it is I would propose to Nastasha what it is you think is an interesting. Look at Francis Lamb's writing. We really like him.
+
+[29:20] I love him. That style of writing. Francis Lamb, who now he's at guilt. He's at his new company Guilt. He's not at the he's not at Salon anymore.
+
+[29:27] Guilt the the blog. Oh. Anyway. Anyway, so I'm I'm I'm open, Andrew. So and we had someone else calling the same thing.
+
+[29:36] Okay. Uh another question. I just had a disaster occur, and I'm trying to backtrack my steps to where I screwed up. And this is coming in from Marty and Eagle Rock. What?
+
+[29:45] We have a caller? I'll come back. Oh, we lost him! We didn't, we got him. Hello, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[29:51] Hey, Dave. I just had a question. Um, so you know it's pumpkin carving season. Oh, Halloween question, yes. All right, go ahead.
+
+[29:58] Yeah, Halloween question. Anyway, um, I was just wondering if you had anything special that you do with all the inside of the nuts that you just scoop out and then you just kind of throw it away. Is there anything you could use that for, food-wise? I mean, other than the seeds? Yeah.
+
+[30:14] Or even the seeds, I don't know. Maybe you couldn't eat the seeds. Oh, the seeds. No, the seeds are incredibly delicious. Now, I wish I had the recipe for it.
+
+[30:20] Uh the my kid's babysitter makes the best pumpkin seeds I've ever had. We're just talking about this yesterday. And um, and you know, when she said she was gonna make pumpkin seeds, I was like, yeah, whatever. Come on, like you're gonna make a pumpkin seed that I think is delicious. Come on, what she doesn't normally cook that much, you know what I mean?
+
+[30:35] But her pumpkin teeds are freaking delicious. And she she removes the pulp from the pumpkin seeds, like washes them clean, and then squeezes uh uh lemon or lime juice over them, lets them sit for a little while, and then roasts them off in an oven with salt. And they are freaking good on a regular pumpkin. They're delicious. I've tried them with the kabocha squash, and the seeds are a little bit thicker, so they're not as good, but uh my but I'll try to get my babysitter's recipe for the seeds for later for next week, but they're they're fantastic.
+
+[31:03] Now, the pulp, I don't know whether you can use the pulp for anything. You ever use the pulp for anything? I mean, I'm sure you could cook it. I'm sure you could cook it and like make like a kind of a brothy thing out of it and then like press it out. The strings themselves, I don't know how well they break down.
+
+[31:18] But uh the seeds by far and away, you should never throw away those pumpkin seeds because they're incredibly delicious. All right. Well, thank you so much. Hey, thank you, and happy Halloween. Nice Halloween question.
+
+[31:29] I wish I had a spooky sound effect to play out. I know. You can you make one? I'll try. How's that?
+
+[31:36] It was good. Spooky? I just had a disaster occur. This is Marty and Eagle Rock. I just had a disaster occur and I'm trying to backtrack my steps to where I screwed up.
+
+[31:45] I love questions like this. Right? Because I like because I screw up all the time and I'm always having to backtrack. Blowtorch. I'm not a big fan.
+
+[32:05] He hasn't gotten to the mistake yet. But I'm not a big fan of uh blowtorches. Um unless look, I mean I'm assuming, Marty, that you maybe you have one of the Iwatanis, which is one of the little uh the little butane powered uh blowtorches. But I find that like the average torch that we use, which are the big old propane ones that are used for uh uh when you're you know, I don't know, what's the word I'm looking for? Doing plumbing, like a plumbing torch, right?
+
+[32:27] Uh they leave what I call a propane taste. And we talked about this recently on the air, a propane taste. And I think it has to do with the chemical that they add to the propane such that you can smell it when it's leaking, right? Because you don't want it to leak and explode and all that stuff. Uh and there are butane torches that don't have that smell because either they do a better job at combusting that smell or because there's less of the adulterance in the butane because you use the butane that you use for pipelighters and cigar lighters, and those customers are very sensitive about that smell, ruining their cigar, which is why old school suckers don't use lighters, they use matches to light their cigars, right?
+
+[33:01] Mm-hmm. Right? Okay, I don't smoke cigars, but I'm just making this up. Anyway, um I'm not a huge fan of torches in general, especially on fat, because fat tends to pick up that flavor more than uh lean parts, which I've done the test on. Uh I'm a bigger fan of just you know, putting a sear on that thing in a frying pan.
+
+[33:22] If you can't do that, fine, go ahead and blowtorch, it's gonna work. But that's just my thoughts on on blowtorching. I recently bought a blowtorch at the home depot that is a propane torch that has a much bigger flame on it. It's a real monster. It's called like a wide angle, like a wide flame.
+
+[33:37] Uh I'm in the process, another blog post. I'm in the process of working on it to see whether or not that thing has less of a torch taste, whether it has a better combustion, and also whether it can do a better job browning because it's not as much of a point source of heat. It's much wider. So I'm looking into that. Anyway, okay.
+
+[33:50] This wasn't the question. We're back on Marty's question now. Uh so he bagged them with olive oil, garlic, and fresh rosemary, and sealed them up with a home vacuum sealer. So far, so good. One I cooked for my parents uh two days at 130 degrees, uh, which is 54-4 or rare.
+
+[34:05] The other I tossed it in the freezer. The first one turned out great. I salted it and seared it off. Perfect meat. By the way, good job not salting it beforehand.
+
+[34:13] The recent blog post we had is that if you salt the meat beforehand, it's gonna taste cured, uh, especially on a long cook like that. It's not gonna taste like a fresh steak. So uh good job salting it afterwards and searing it off. Uh perfect meat. Good.
+
+[34:25] I'm glad. A couple of weeks later, I default defrosted the other hunk and tossed it into the souvi into the um uh immersion circulator into the or whatever he's using to cook at 130 degrees uh and cooked it for 36 hours. At 36 hours, he noticed an air pocket growing in the bag. He was worried there was some anaerobic nastiness happening, and sure enough, when I opened it up, it smelled like rancid zombie vomit. There's some Halloween for you.
+
+[34:48] Rancid zombie vomit. So, rancid zombie vomit. Zombie vomit zombie zombies eat only human brains, right? I don't know. Yeah, zom Jack, correct?
+
+[34:58] I'll have to do some fact checking on that first. Yeah, fact-check. I believe, well, maybe not exclusively, but their favorite thing to eat is Yeah, it seems like Google says they eat brains. Yeah, human brains. And then the reason they don't just eat other zombie brains, the reason they need human brains, is because the way you become a zombie is to have a zombie eat your brain.
+
+[35:14] Therefore, therefore, you don't have the brain to be eaten by the once you're a zombie, so they need to search out fresh humans for their brains. So see, this is why it works. Anyway. So Rancy's rancid zombie vomit would be uh like several day old human brains that have been digested by zombies is what we're talking about for a smell. So I eat bad.
+
+[35:34] Uh I dumped it and served leftover lasagna instead. That's a good call. Uh what uh question is where did I go wrong? Could I have killed guests had I served it? And what should I do differently next time?
+
+[35:44] Uh thanks, Marty. I don't think that uh look, obviously, you did the right thing. Anytime a bag uh blows up with air and you don't know why, you should throw it away. Uh because there's probably clearly bacteria growing in there that are c uh causing uh the bag to inflate. The fact that it smelled like rancid zombie vomit, right, and usually um it, and it does smell freaking awful because I've had it happen before.
+
+[36:10] Uh it's like um to me, it's not zombie vomit as much as it is kind of blue cheese mixed with zombie vomit, right? Kind of a blue cheese sauerkraut, socks, feet, zombie vomit mix, right? But it's um it's off putting. Let's put it that way. Uh certain, like uh, you know how some cheeses taste delicious if it's smell of death?
+
+[36:32] It's kind of like that, too. Anyway, uh, what's happening in there is it's not gonna kill anyone, most likely, but what that is uh is uh there are different lactic acid uh bacteria, lactobacilli, and other bacteria like that that are growing in that bag. And what happened is this you had a large piece of meat. Uh you might have had a uh portion of the interior of the meat that had gotten contaminated, like a knife or something got stuck into it, or it's just the stuff on the outside, and maybe the meat was resting against the bottom of the circulator, right? And you put something in frozen.
+
+[37:07] Or you you thawed it, and as you thaw it, let's say you thawed it before you put it in the circulator. Uh remember, freezing doesn't kill bacteria. It kills maybe a certain portion of them, but it's not uh a method to kill bacteria. So the bacteria are basically in suspended animation. It takes a long time to thaw out a piece of meat.
+
+[37:25] This is why they have you thaw meat in the refrigerator typically, even though it takes a whole hell of a long time, they don't want the meat to uh basically be growing bacteria while it's thawing out. The reason it takes a long time to thaw meat is because uh water is not nearly as good, like bound water inside of meat is not nearly as good a heat conductor as the ice. So once it starts thawing, it actually becomes kind of insulated relative to uh the part that's not thawed. And so it takes a lot longer to thaw something than it does to freeze it, which is why things take forever to thaw, and even though you've had that turkey in the fridge for you know three days, the inside of it's still frozen. You've noticed that, right, Nastasha?
+
+[38:02] Yeah. So uh one, you don't necessarily have to thaw it, you can thaw it in the circulator um at kind of low cooking temp in that in that area, right? And then you're killing bacteria right from the get go without growing some at the beginning. The other problem is if there's some bacteria in the middle of it and it takes hours for the uh meat to come up to temperature, and it can take hours and hours and hours, especially you're right at the line there. You're at 50, uh, like 130 is like 54 4.
+
+[38:33] If it's four degrees different, so if you have a big roast and it sits in the bottom of the pan and there's uh stuff underneath that's contaminated that hasn't been uh killed yet, and that part is even four degrees cooler because there's not water circulation underneath of it, you're gonna be growing bacteria in that, and then the gas will come up around, it'll form a bubble and it'll start floating, right? So I'd have to diagnose exactly where you went wrong. Um one, beware that at those close temperatures, you should what you should do is take the bag and probably simmer it like for like a minute just to kill everything that's on the surface layer, and then put it in, and you're not gonna have a problem. You're gonna want to make sure the bag is up off the bottom of your circulator tank so that there's not a place where you're like four degrees different. At four degrees different, you're growing evil bacteria in there, and you don't want that to happen.
+
+[39:19] Um another thing is making sure that you don't have any contamination on the inside, uh, making sure that your thaw times aren't too long. Uh, but you you you you definitely put yourself in a situation where a chunk of the meat was in the range probably between 40 and 50 Celsius, right? So below 100 and whatever it is, 20 and change, 20, you know, eight or six, seven, whatever it is, and change where bacteria are growing, and you grew lactic acid bacteria. You probably wouldn't have killed anyone, but I guarantee you the entire piece of meat was repulsive, so it's a good job to throw it away. Um right?
+
+[39:54] Mm-hmm. Yeah? Yeah. Alright. And uh, do you have anything else to say?
+
+[40:00] Um. No? You have nothing? No. Pubkiss?
+
+[40:04] All right. Well, uh, this has been the Halloween episode of Cooking Issues. We'll come back with all of our Halloween stories. Happy Halloween and happy trick-or-treating. Oh, you dead wrap.
+
+[40:25] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[40:54] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The following is a public service announcement from Food Karma. To kick off the New York City Meat Week in style, Meet with a Twist will bring together the best chefs and mixologists for a cocktail food pairing party on November 7th from 6 to 10 p.m. at City Winery.
+
+[41:19] Meet with a Twist features 10 cocktails paired with 10 chef selections highlighting local sustainably grown meats such as duck, lamb, chicken, pork, beef, bison, and ostrich. The party will launch a week's worth of events throughout the city that celebrate the slow food movement bringing sustainable meats to our tables. Again, that's November 7th from 6 to 10 p.m. at City Winery. Updates, tickets, and more information are available at MeatweekNYC.com.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 out of the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, New York. Join today as always with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, but also special and unknown guest.
+
+[0:37] We didn't know he was going to be here. He was here for another radio show, which is prerecorded, which is why it's okay that we're going to steal him. But Alex Talbot, Alexander Talbot from Ideas and Food, the one and only is in the studio with us today. Hello, Alex. Hello, sir.
+
+[0:49] How are you? Doing well, doing well. So call in all of your questions. And if you're a chump sucker, if you don't call in and ask uh Alex your questions now, to uh 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128.
+
+[1:01] Nastash, how's your Halloween, by the way? Fine. Are you gonna ask people to to text us? She's by the way, folks, just so you know, Nastasha is typing on her computer and having a lot of people. I'm doing work for Dave, folks.
+
+[1:14] Yes, but it's during the radio show, Nastasha. Anyway. That's how busy you are. Are you gonna tell people to tweet if they're listening? So that we can keep track of how many listeners we actually have.
+
+[1:24] That's not gonna help, but like if I listened, I wouldn't even know how to tweet. It's not like I'm gonna set up Nastash is trying to figure out how many people. This is an ongoing thing. We're trying to figure out whether anyone's actually listening to this thing or not. Uh and uh, you know, we know a couple of you are because you're writing questions.
+
+[1:36] Thank you. Uh, but uh iTunes is making it impossible for us to um Or they can email me if they listen. If they listen. Yeah. Okay, you're gonna be swamped with all three emails.
+
+[1:47] Anyway, uh today's show is brought sponsored again by the Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies and only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[2:14] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson is his team and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, and by the way, we uh asked last week about this, and someone from I believe New Zealand sent it and said it was like under ten bucks. It was like five or eight bucks or something to ship whatever it is they wanted to New Zealand. So we're like they got it in like seven days or something.
+
+[2:34] Yeah, so we're like, hmm, all right, nice. Mm-hmm. Nice. All right, so it's no, it's no BS, it's no horse hockey. They will ship it anywhere in the world at a uh at inexpensive uh cost.
+
+[2:42] Anyway, uh Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry now carries iota kappa and lambda. Lambda carragen. What the heck do you use lambda carragina for? You ever use that, Alex?
+
+[2:52] Chocolate milk. Yep. I mean, like, do you find you need to stabilize uh chocolate milk often for yourself? Not really. We actually pass over it all the time.
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+[3:00] We uh just use a lot of chocolate. Yeah. And it's that's it. In other words, like from a cook's perspective, why would you want to use a lam lambda caragina? Just because you're cool.
+
+[3:10] So, folks, carragenin, uh, seaweed derivatives, and uh the deal is is that uh there's a bunch of different kinds. There's uh there's iota, kappa, and lambda are the three main different kinds of carrageenans, and they differ based on um I believe it's the sulfate bridges along the backbone, how they work. Uh Kappa caragina is the one that's closest to agar and its behavior, it's very brittle. Iota is very, very stretchy and elastic. And lambda is kind of non-gelling, uh, or we think of it as non-gelling, but it's used as a as an embodying agent in chocolate milk.
+
+[3:42] Uh no carrageenan mix is pure there because they're natural products. So, you know, kappa will have a bit of the other two and and vice versa. But things are primarily they they're sold as primarily iota, kappa, and lambda. Uh I know many chefs excuse me, chefs who use iota and kappa, but I don't know any chefs that use uh lambda, at least not that they've told me. Anyway, fans of cooking issues that place an order of $35 or more before next week's show will get a free package of iota carrageenin.
+
+[4:08] Simply use the promo code CI as in cooking issues 60 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. I mean iota mainly puddings, right? I mean it is, yeah, I mean that's it. It's also the one of the only hydrocolloids that's uh self-healing.
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+[4:25] Oh, right, true. So uh there's basically when you break a uh hydrocolloid by shearing it, they it never again comes back together. It's sheer irreversible when you break the gelatin. In uh iota, they will actually the gel will will heat up. Now if you are if you use iota to do a hard like when I say a hard gel, one that doesn't kind of break easily like a pudding, it's kind of a weird texture.
+
+[4:46] It is what's that uh that stuff that you used to get on uh shoot. I used to buy it as a kid. Uh rubber cement? It's like rubber cells. But it's but softer.
+
+[4:55] But softer. But no, there's shoot. There was a candy of sorts. You know what it's kind of like is you know those stretchy hands that you buy and you slap them across the room, you like fling them across the room and they stretch out and stick to the wall. And then snap back and hit you in the face.
+
+[5:07] Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like that, but without the sticking and hitting you back in the face thing. But most people don't use iota in levels that produce that kind of behavior. They're using it in kind of pudding levels, and then you can you can put the pudding into another container like a ramicin or something like that, and then you know. Yeah, I mean it it it it benefits from that little bit of kappa to give it just a touch of structure so that you know when you cut your spoon through it, you can actually see it as opposed to just you know the blob which goes back on itself.
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+[5:39] Right. And the reason, by the way, that uh people use carrageenans in milk-based uh things is because there's a synergism between milk and carrageenin. So if you would normally to get you have to use depending on the actual one you use, but it's something on the order of one-fifth of the amount of carrageenin that you would have to use uh to thicken a milk-based system as you would to thicken a water-based system with the same carrageenin. So uh you can use very, very small amounts. Industrially, this is good because it means that you're using less product, which saves you money.
+
+[6:13] Uh if from a cooking perspective, the less of a thickening agent you have to use, the less chance you have, the less um opportunity there is for that ingredient to alter mar or mask the flavor that you're dealing with. Certainly uh I mean there's a couple other things we talk about a lot, but it it's the you want the you want to use the least amount of anything possible, be it salt or carrageenin or sugar, so to get the desired results. Uh you can also have the the calcium to uh because it it's iota is is calcium reactant whereas kappa is potassium. So you can if with if you don't have a lot of milk, just add some calcium. But you know what, you know what I never know, I never know it depends on who gives you the uh the the product, but I know like certain of the kappas are pre-formulated with the potassium salts in it.
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+[7:00] It all depends. A lot of TIC gum stuff is is basically idiot-proofed. Right. It's by the way, folks, this is why this is w I mean like I love what Martin Larish from Chimelus has done for the world by creating his hydrocolides recipe Index. And by the way, he's getting better about going back and and a lot of your recipes are in there.
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+[7:14] A lot of our yeah. Uh but the um the one thing he did was remove a lot of the brand names. And what I always tell people is that if you are going to specify a recipe, you should always specify the brand that you use. Because if you just say Kappa Caragine, and first of all, there could be anything natural like this, like could come in a wide variety of of chain lengths, for instance. There's wide variety of properties.
+
+[7:42] But also could or could not have uh the setting salts added to them already. I mean it's right. I mean, if you look at a lot of CP Celco stuff, they've got CP Celco different uh variation, but gel in. They've got JJ, which already has sodium citrate in it, which is a squestrant, which it allows it to be uh easier for for gelling and but whole other ball game. Right.
+
+[8:01] So always say the brand you're using. Anyway, we have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Dave. Howdy. This is Mike, I'm uh commercial brewer, and uh interested in possibly doing some molecular stuff with beer.
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+[8:14] And I'm wondering uh what you think. I'm thinking maybe like you know, doing a black and tan, but have one beer have maybe some some uh alginate in it, so when the black, you know, it'd be more like a lava lamp than uh a black uh traditional black and tan, or maybe uh making some little alginate balls with uh something sweet to go in, maybe a sour beer so they'd float around. What do you think about that? Uh you mean as a as a commercial thing? Uh yeah, just as a way to to serve beer, you know, in uh you know, just uh in a fun way, working the molecular kind of stuff into certain into beer.
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+[8:50] Do you think you could have one beer that had something in it that would, you know, do more like a lava lamp in a glass or uh I mean the way lava lamps work they um the way lava lamps work is is basically it's an oil and water phenomenon, right? So you t you're taking you taking two emissive uh like liquids, basically one's a solid, it's a wax really, and you're heating it and when it heats it floats up and then cools and goes down. That's why it looks that it looks so awesome. I mean the real question with a beer is how would you get the how would you get the two beers to be to not mix unless you had an envelope around them. So so then that comes to your second question is could you do something with alginate?
+
+[9:29] And the problem with alginate, there's a couple problems I have with alginate. One, I don't think it tastes good. It doesn't taste good. It makes things taste less than the original. Yes.
+
+[9:38] You might as well not use it. It's a flavor thief. It that that I'm gonna steal that for you. I'm gonna write it down and I it's now stolen. So there you go.
+
+[9:44] Still the other problem from a commercial standpoint, and people have made obvious obviously people make um balls of things. So the famous the famous ball commercial ball drink is orbits, right? Orbits was gel an based. Now the problem with orbits was the the the beads were solid. They weren't liquid.
+
+[10:03] It's very hard to do a liquid based thing in a commercial way that's gonna last a a long time. By the way we're in a construction zone if you hear that hammering in the ball. That is actually Dave building a new road. Yeah exactly so so um so but you're gonna have problems with color stability in in these situations. So most gel systems are somewhat porous and so over a fairly short period of time you're gonna get color bleaching out.
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+[10:28] Now the the guys who do this professionally with orbits took care of this by having uh the basically the the relative levels of that things are going to change the osmotic balance of the liquids very, very, very close to identical, so that they got very little color bleed over time. But you're gonna have huge problem in a black and tan kind of a situation keeping the tan and the black portions together. Although it's really kind of like brown and light brown, it's not really black and tan and brown. Kind of coffee. Yeah.
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+[10:55] So you could mean like you could look, it's obvious you could do here's something you could another problem is is if the center liquid is carbonated, right? You're gonna have problems with air pockets developing on the inside of your uh membrane uh shell. Right. Which uh you know I've I've done it with carbonated liquids, and you definitely get an air pocket. And some people or not an air pocket, a carbon dioxide pocket.
+
+[11:16] And some people use this like on purpose, they do this on purpose, but um but it's a problem from a from a commercial standpoint. So you'd have to probably move to a still-based inner liquid. And then I would do the reverse, I would do a reverse verification, and you can use something nicer, you could do pectin, which is like pretty nice texture. You would basically uh uh form your liquid, uh freeze it in a larger format, so you get a more lava lampy thing, and then you'd set it uh uh uh uh you'd set like an envelope of pectin around it. You could use alginate as a first test because it's a lot easier.
+
+[11:50] Gel N actually is our go-to for for that for for all encapsulation. All right, you have to use deionized water and like go crazy, otherwise you sequestrants. Well, you see, sequester the hell out of it. Yeah, so in uh we actually talk about it in our book. There's a good plug for our book, ideas and food.
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+[12:04] There you go, buy it. Um but we use uh roughly 0.5% low acyl gel in and we use 0.05% uh sodium hexametophosphate in in in a water bath. Boom, done. And then how's your water in your area though? It's fine, but we we've we've gone to uh Plano, Texas and done it, and uh when we did it without adding the little uh sodium hexametophosphate, we had a disaster.
+
+[12:25] Right. Because they're they've got crazy calcium water, but uh with the sequestron in there, and then we just drop everything into it and you get a beautiful skin. And once you get good with it, you can actually lower the amount of gel an in there to point three percent and really get a very self uh silky sexy uh skin.5 of gel an, low acyl gel in is equivalent to about 0.8.9% agon. Yes, but with the and also with the sequestron in there, it actually tenderizes. Softens a little bit.
+
+[12:51] It softens it, so it it's the uh a really unique gel uh as an exterior skin. So what I would do is if you have a vacuum machine, I would take your black, whatever you're gonna use is like your stout situation there, and I would decarbonate it in a vacuum machine. Then I would uh then I would um add some calcium to it, because I don't know what the calcium level in beer is, use gluconate, not uh not chloride because it's horrible. And uh then uh do what Alex suggests, which is get low acyl gel an uh make a solution of that with a sequestering sodium hexametophosphi uh phosphate aka shimp, which you can get probably at modernist pantry, although I haven't used them. Have you used them ever modernist pantry?
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+[13:32] I haven't though uh I think via Twitter we've been referenced to them and and shot them. They're right here in Brooklyn, right? I have no idea where they are. I think so. And if not, I'm I'm promoting the wrong people.
+
+[13:40] Anyway, so but the uh do that and then you might get an interesting effect, lava lamp like where the carbonation, if you use a higher carbonated liquid, like instead of what you would normally use, like an IPA or something like that, and it might float the ball up to the top. Yeah, and if you used actu uh cap no iota carrogenin, really low low amount for your encapsulation, the the product, it'll actually give you that lava like texture as well. Well, go check out the book because I'm sure this is in the book. Ideas and food, the book. Perfect.
+
+[14:05] All right. Thanks for calling calling. We have another caller, caller, you're on the air. Hi. Um, this question is for Dave and Alex, obviously.
+
+[14:13] Um, I was wondering what do you what do you guys think is the best way to cook a leg of lamb? Cook what I couldn't hear you. A leg of lamb? What is the best way to cook a leg of lamb, according to you guys? What kind of equipment do you have?
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+[14:28] Um, very basic. I'm not extremely experienced. Alright, then the best uh then clearly the best way if you don't have the equipment to do it properly is to bone it out, roll it flat, remove certain parts of the muscles that aren't going to cook properly, and then quickly grill it, wouldn't you say or no? I'd grill it, I give it a I'd give it a yogurt marinade too, just to get the flavor. Really tenderized it?
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+[14:48] Tenderize it and give it a quick grill, just break it into pieces. And and you can try and seam it out, but it sounds like that might be a a bit of a stretch, so just cut it into smaller pieces. Or get the butcher to seam it out for you. Like, in other words, like I you definitely want that thing to get flat. Leg of lamb, if you cook it whole, is gonna be tough and overcooked with any kind of traditional cooking technique.
+
+[15:07] I've never had one that was really done properly. And there are people who like raw blue lamb in the middle, but they're not that many because the texture isn't necessarily good, right? I I I'm not a blue lamb guy. I actually like it medium rare, even even medium, is it's it kind of silkens out a little bit more. Right, so but I would definitely get it as flat as possible and and and as Alex said, break it into into pieces and then and then cook it that way.
+
+[15:33] Unless do you have a need to serve it whole, or you have some sort of like primal cuts dinner that you're gonna be doing? No, no. I I've been served it whole before and it was okay. I've had a lot of people who have grilled it whole, but um, if that's not the best way to do it, then doesn't really bother me. Look at or slow roast it.
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+[15:50] Yeah, maybe look whole grilling gives you some things that you're not gonna get any other way. For instance, we all enjoy certain overcooked pieces of meat that are crunchy and kind of burnt and delicious on the edges of of things, right? It just it just renders uh, in my opinion, like those whole cut things, unless you're very good at it and they have a two-part flame and you're cooking it over a high and then you move it to lower or vice versa, however you believe, or slow roasting. Uh y it's very easy to get a large portion of the meat that's kind of dry and overcooked, especially the non-fatty areas. Fatty areas can take a lot more abuse because fat is delicious when it's high cooked.
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+[16:28] Um the other problem with with the with the leg, uh like is the leg is composed of a bunch of different muscles and they don't all operate, they don't all when I say operate, cook the same way. And so um this is my problem with you know, there's certain people who are very famous and whose product is good, I've had it, who are big big believers in what's called whole hog cookery when it comes to cooking pigs. I am not a believer in this. I in other words, uh like I've done certain tests to try and cook whole animals properly, but in general, unless you are willing to go through Herculean efforts to try and have all muscles cook uh when they're still attached to the animal, different muscles want to be cooked differently. That's just the way it works.
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+[17:05] Right, the whole hog, aren't they all it's all chopped up together at the end, isn't it? Yes. And that's how they cover up the fact that the loin doesn't taste good. So so wait, so it's all it's whole hog, but we're gonna put it all together. So it's it's it's really blended hog.
+
+[17:17] It's real yeah, it really is blended hog. It's not whole hog. It would be much better if they took it into pieces and cooked each piece the way they wanted to, then chopped it up and put it back together again. So whole hog's a farce. Uh, but not in a good not like a stuffing way.
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+[17:28] Not like in a stuffing way, but more as in like a false false uh pretense. Uh yeah, I just don't think it's I don't think it's a goal we should aspire to. I don't think it's I you know, and look, uh I love Ed Mitchell. Do you know what I mean? Like but my How can you not love Ed Mitchell?
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+[17:40] I love Ed Mitchell, but I just don't necessarily see why I should aspire to attempt to create something that's good by and it is good, but I just don't see why I would attempt to create something that's good that way by doing something that's against what the meat wants to do, which is the loin wants to be cooked for not a long time. And the and the and the you know, the the cuts that have a lot of connective tissue want to be cooked for a longer time. And then mix them together if you want, crisp up the skin, mix them together. So basically keep cook each part separately and then bring it together at the end. I'm a huge believer in cooking each piece of meat the way it wants to be cooked.
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+[18:12] Do you have a conversation with the meat first? Are you like a meat whisper? I do. I get up, I put my ear next to it. Are we helping all the way by with your lamb?
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+[18:20] Another collar. Anyway, hopefully this helps with your lamb. I think you're good. Thank you. All right, call her.
+
+[18:25] You're on the air. Oh, they dropped off. Oh, they dropped. We missed them. Maybe we may maybe we talk that's our job, Nastasha.
+
+[18:31] See, this is like classic Nastasha. Nastasha's like, you're answering this person's question. So the next person dropped off. There is no caller. I was saying go to break.
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+[18:39] Oh, go to break. See, Nastasha? Your your viciousness is incorrect. This is why we call her the hammer, folks, just because she is vicious. Anyway, uh calling all your questions too.
+
+[18:48] 718497-2128. 718497-2128. Sugar Power coming back. You know that I love you. I came up myself.
+
+[19:09] I love you when nobody else. Come in go. Come in, go. And I just did it thousand times. That's a whole other thing.
+
+[20:09] And welcome back to Cooking Issues, Nastasha. How's your Halloween? What were you? 70s person. Yeah, you were supposed to be a cop, weren't you?
+
+[20:16] Or a donut? Mark had to work. Yeah, her boyfriend had to work. That's too bad. So you were a 70s woman, but I thought you hated like it was I wasn't sexy at all.
+
+[20:25] Nastasha, Nastasha, if she was wearing the sexiest outfit in the world, would put a pair of uh long Johns with elephants on underneath it to de sexy. This is this is her MO, folks. Happy Halloween. Oh, by the way, I brought you some Sour Patch kids because if you ever want Nastasha to like you and you think she's gonna hate you, which odds are she will if she meets you. You said if I were a fish, if you were fishing for me.
+
+[20:45] Yeah, but Sour Patch, so I have some for her for tonight. What about what about you, Alex? How was your Halloween? It was good. It was my daughter's first real big uh Halloween.
+
+[20:52] Yeah, how old is she now? She's gonna be three in December. Nice, and what was she? She was a cupcake princess, of course. Really?
+
+[20:58] But you you don't like cupcakes, do you? I can eat a cupcake. Really? Yeah, I'll th I'll I'll throw I'll throw down the the banter against cupcakes, but uh long and short, is I can choke a cupcake down really quickly. Well, because it's small.
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+[21:09] It's small, it's edible. If it's if it's done right, it's good, but more often than a lot, cupcakes have a lot of tunneling at them. It it well uh have a lot of what? Tunneling. The uh they're they're they're just mixed improperly and so you they have air tunnels in that's not my problem.
+
+[21:20] My problem is the incorrect icing to volume ratio. Uh first of all, I like cake. I don't like cake. Cake is just delicious. Ah, see, I like icing.
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+[21:26] See, you'd get along with Aki. Aki likes cake. Or actually you wouldn't get along with her because she you guys would fight over the cake and I could just eat all the icing. Yeah, see uh what I like is like a glaze icing. Eh, that's weak.
+
+[21:39] Uh cupcakes. I d I you know what? You know, okay, we can all agree on this. Anyone that makes a miniature cupcake should be wiped off the face of the earth. Agreed.
+
+[21:47] Okay. Except you know what's kind of like a miniature cupcake, but are actually good, but only if they're super fresh as Madeleine's. But they're not iced. They're not iced. They're cake.
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+[21:57] They're cake. But they they're uh a size that's bad. They're a surface to volume ratio that's bad for a cakey thing. Sure, they stale quickly. Yeah, they're awful when they're old.
+
+[22:05] Yeah, I mean they're awful like 30 seconds out of the oven. Yeah, and why here's another question. Do I like black and white cookies only because I grew up eating them, or is it are they actually delicious? There's a few good ones out there, but there's there's a quest form. Aki has that same quest.
+
+[22:19] Because they're basically a semi-staled cake in a cookie form with icing on top, a glaze icing, I might add. And you know, I grew up, because I grew up around New York loving the hell out of them. And it's a better ratio, and if you think about it, it's actually taking the top off of a cupcake and inverting it and putting the glaze on the inside. Yeah, but it's a it's a good tasting icing, not a crap tasting icing. It's glaze.
+
+[22:39] Well, depends where you go. And mo and most actual black and white glazes are well. Look, if you hand me a black and white cookie that looks like it's got icing on the top that was knifed on and not poured and let to set, I will stab you in the eye with your icing knife, right or no? You will. Yeah, I mean it's not a black and white at that point.
+
+[22:57] No, it's something frosted. It's an abomination. It's not iced, it's frosted. Right. Okay.
+
+[23:03] It's fair. Alright. So we're gonna have to go to some of the uh oh, by the way, calling your questions. Two 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[23:11] I'm doing pretty well considering getting over a thing, right? Yeah. Anyway. Did you memorize that? I finally memorized it.
+
+[23:16] Wow. That's good, right? It's not on my it's not on my sheet like I normally used to have it. Okay. Uh three questions came in from Andrew.
+
+[23:23] One, how can we know umami exists? Do we have taste receptors committed uh to these umami specific amino acids? Yes. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[23:32] The research was done in uh the early 2000s, like 2000, 2001, 2002. We have taste receptors for umami. It's no longer a question, it's fat. And also it it's also exciting, yeah. I mean, you can you can trigger those umami receptors on the uh on your palate.
+
+[23:46] Yeah, and they've they've looked at it, you know, uh, you know, yeah, crap's real, real deal homie. Okay. Two, if you could design invent a machine without monetary constraint to aid in cookery or cocktail making to create a dish drink method wildly amazing, what would it be? A robot version of myself. No, I'm kidding.
+
+[24:03] No, uh, what would you do, Alex? Shoot. I'm not sure. Uh I'd need a lot more people, like me, a lot more people that you don't have to tell what you want. It's not that I'm particularly good or bad at anything.
+
+[24:16] It's say it's the hardest part when you're cooking anything is is conveying your intentions, your intent. Right? Not intentions, your intent. The hardest when you're talking to someone, you're like, do it like I want it to get done, and then it doesn't get done what you like the way you want it. So like a really good chef, what they can really do is get is besides cooking themselves, is they can get other people to cook things the way they want them done, right?
+
+[24:38] So it's very, very hard to to kind of tell someone what you want them to do. So like you need a translator. You you need we need to build a translator. Yeah, something that I could just walk up to somebody and they would know what it is I wanted them to do. Or just speak into a box and then it it tells other people so that it just you don't have to do it.
+
+[24:53] You just you speak into it and say, all right, I want X, Y, or Z, and everyone else finally understands it. Yeah, you know what's even rarer and more awesome is when you say something and someone comes back with something better than your intent. That happens more often, not in my world. But uh you have any we'll we'll keep that one in hold. We'll think about that for the rest of the show.
+
+[25:12] Any machines that we want that we that are just cost. I mean, there are things I mean, obviously, like I'd love there's uh I want a twin screw extr uh twin screw uh extruder, right? I don't own one because they're fantastically expensive, but it's a machine that already exists. Sure. You know, I want there's a bunch of things I I would like a supercritical CO2 extractor.
+
+[25:30] They're just fabulously expensive. I would like a spray drying column as tall as uh you know as uh you know a a barn, but taller even. And it's it's a little maybe a little hard to store. Yeah. Well, that's the thing, like no monetary constraint.
+
+[25:44] But if design invent a machine, I don't have any things that I want to invent that are I'm not doing as a result of monetary constraints, more time constraints than the fact that it's hard for me to and plus David Chang will uh shoot over here with uh needles and stick them in my eyes if I tell you what we're working on. That may happen. Yeah, it might happen anyway. Anyway, three, can a food saver adequately compress watermelon for dishes like Keller's melon, mango, steak, tartar? Are food savers a wash, or do they have good use?
+
+[26:10] No, they cannot, in my opinion, and Alex might be different, uh his opinion might be different from mine. I do not believe a food saver adequately uh has enough of a vacuum to do a good job at uh at crushing uh watermelon, uh the air sacks and watermelon. What do you think? Not in the least. I I mean what what we're doing is and I think that's the I think the it one of the big issues is is the term compression is is partially mis misguiding, right?
+
+[26:33] I mean we're we're not compressing per se, but we're removing air. Right. So if you don't remove the air, ain't nothing gonna happen. You need a you need a good, good vacuum. Now, the cheapest way to get a good vacuum, which because you I'm assuming you're not gonna go buy a couple thousand dollar vacuum machine, and although I want you to, I don't think you will.
+
+[26:50] I haven't because my wife would kill me if I did that. Uh and you haven't built it yet? Well, okay, not one with a sealer, but what I have done that you can do fairly cheaply is buy a refrigerate a refrigeration vacuum online for like a hundred bucks. You can get uh uh you know an oil seal rotary vein vacuum pump that's used to evacuate uh compressors for refrigeration. Since they need to make a whole boatload of these and people don't like think they're fancy, they don't cost very much.
+
+[27:16] You can get them for like a hundred bucks. Where? Uh eBay. Yeah, get like the good ones like Robinair is a good brand. Uh there's a couple of good brands out there.
+
+[27:24] Some cost more, there's some cheaper ones that are knockoffs. They can they can without breaking a sweat achieve uh below 10 millibar of vacuum. Which is not horrible at all. Yeah, great. I use one in my roto vap, for instance.
+
+[27:35] One I have a better one that can get down to like four millibar. But so the so and they're pretty fast, which is awesome. So then you uh basically you hook a hose, like a rubber hose, uh to and you get a piece of plexiglass at the at your local like Home Depot style place with a rubber seal, stick it on a round bain marie, don't stick it on a a square one because you will crush it. Uh and uh you have a vacuum compression system all in for like a hundred and fifty, hundred and fifty bucks in that range. Yeah.
+
+[28:03] Works. Do it. Um do they have a good use food savers? Sure. They're a good way to package food for low temperature cooking at home.
+
+[28:11] I prefer Ziplocks. Um they're uh relatively okay for things like coffee. Yeah. Right. I mean, we used a f you know, before we knew any better, and before we we we could achieve more, we I mean we used a food saver for a year when we were out in Colorado, you know, messing with this stuff or out in up in Maine.
+
+[28:28] We we used a food saver. That was that's what we could afford. Yeah, I mean, look, it does a decent job of packaging things, and the food saver, if you buy the roll bags, I mean like the one thing I always used it for was like very, very long striped bass because there's no um there's no maximum length on a food saver bag as long as it's less than a roll. Right. And so, you know, I would bag like you know 36, 40 inch stripers in the 10 inch wide bags.
+
+[28:49] You jam them in. If you tried to pull it out, the fins would rip the bags, but you know, you put them in and you could bag whole fish that way. You could do a school of fish, actually. Yeah, it's in a row. In a row.
+
+[28:59] In a row in a ring. Uh huh. Anyway, so they have a use. I like them. I mean, they're they they are it's you know, it's my first vacuum patch packaging uh system.
+
+[29:06] They're also really good at resealing a bag of chips. Yeah, I have not used it for that. Yeah. But I and it's actually interesting. You can use this the seal bar just for itself if you want to just start sealing things.
+
+[29:15] Yeah, which you should. I mean, I have a sealer now at home, just a sealer because it's faster. Okay. Yeah. Um I use a sealer all the time for potato chips.
+
+[29:23] Okay. Uh oh, and PS, congratulations on the book deal. Thank you very much. I didn't we didn't leak that by the way. That was leaked by the publisher.
+
+[29:30] The fact that I have a uh book deal. One on cocktails and one on God knows what. Okay. Uh another umami style question from Jason. Dave, traditionally, before uh combo is used in stocks, we are told to wipe it with a wet cloth.
+
+[29:42] Doing so removes a great deal of white powder found on the surface of the combu sheet, which I understand are glutamate crystals. Since combu is generally used for its high concentration of glutamates, why would I want to wipe the surface uh glutaminate crystals off or glu glutamate crystals off before using it? Seems counterproductive. Man, I agree. I don't wipe, I don't I don't wipe combo.
+
+[29:59] We have we have a collar? Um I agree, I don't wipe it. I'll take the collar and then we'll go back to it. Collar, you're on the air. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[30:06] Doing all right, how you doing? This is Amy in California. Howdy. Uh not last week, but the week before you posed the question about using the was it the nitrates and the nitrites for uh clean tapes. Uh for and right.
+
+[30:26] Yeah. Do you have you have experience in this? Uh no. I do, however, have uh a very noticeable sensitivity to nitrates. And if killing them that way would introduce that into the meat, it would mean that not only can I not have preserved meat, I wouldn't be able to have pork at all.
+
+[30:48] Huh. Well, let me see. It's uh it's it's a I hadn't thought of that. Uh it's an interesting question. So, Alex, I don't know, like uh so the the there's some research where there's some research where they basically, in order to kill f uh feral hogs in, I believe it was Australia, New Zealand, I have to go back and look at it, they would put um tablets of uh nitr nitrites and nitrates uh around the pigs would eat it.
+
+[31:11] They don't have the ability uh in general to uh uh reduce the the stuff back, and so they basically um they they lose their ability to convert oxy you know their hemoglobin back into oxygenated hemoglobin and they die. So uh but they do it in a way that doesn't make them uh hyper excited. They don't you know they don't go crazy. They don't they they don't feel like they're being killed. They just pass out.
+
+[31:33] Okay. Okay, so the question is, can this be used for uh a humane um killing method? Right? So and then now the question is is well, there are people, and I hadn't thought about this, so thanks so much for calling in. There are people who are uh sensitive to to this, uh sensitive to nitrites and can't have it in cured meats.
+
+[31:51] Uh and the question is is would it, if it's used as an anesthetic, would it also have an elevated um level in the meat? Uh I don't know. That's a very good question. That's an excellent question. Um, it's kind of like uh I mean the the the real question I'd have is what are the levels?
+
+[32:09] You know what I mean? So first of all, like what levels do you think you're sensitive to? Um I don't know, but more than one slice of ham. Right. And for the week following, I have difficulty moving my fingers and toes.
+
+[32:27] It's like I've rented arthritis a week. Is it similar to like what like is do you become like cyanonic? Do you go like does it like do you have the like do you go blue or no? Like I I have no idea. I haven't researched it all.
+
+[32:38] Actually, my I I get I get swelling in my extremities. So my hands and my feet get swollen and my joints hurt to move. Right. Well, I again I I don't know anything about this because I haven't researched it. Um but but the and I and I haven't found anything about it.
+
+[32:57] It's just experimental with me. I I had weird symptoms, and one of the things that I found out when I took it out of my diet was that you know, if you know I can't I can't have bacon for breakfast anymore. And it runs in my family. My mother had problems with it, my sister has problems with it. I think my brother's in denial.
+
+[33:18] Well, uh the the okay, so it it's it's interesting. I mean, I I'm definitely gonna look into it just because that's the kind of thing I I like to look into. But um the the the thing is, look, there's a certain amount of small amount of baseline uh nitrates in and nitrites in in things that we consume. That's why they can reduce like a billion pounds of celery down to a powder and use it to fall false cure bacon. Or it's real cure, falsely say that they haven't added nitrates to it.
+
+[33:43] So there's gotta be some small level that you're okay with and it's exceeded in whatever you're eating in form of ham. So the real question is is what is the increase in muscle muscle content of nitrate in a pig that's been slaughtered this way? I don't know. We'd have to check it out. Research.
+
+[33:58] Yeah, research. Research definitely needs to be done. Someone in the U.S. needs to think it's an interesting problem who has a livestock research. And wants to dive into this one.
+
+[34:07] And wants to dive into this one. But uh thanks for bringing that to my attention. We'll definitely look into it. Okay. Thanks very much.
+
+[34:12] Um I ask you one other favor? Sure. Um, with Thanksgiving coming up, what veggies would you recommend for low temperature civide? Oh, Alex, you're a good one. I'm trying to think how how many different things I could have all set to finish, just pull out and go.
+
+[34:33] You can have as many. I was like, have the potatoes in there, pull them out, mash them, and they're good. Yeah, well, you should pre-mash. You should cook a pot I would cook a potato basically traditionally, mash it, put it in a bag, and then reheat it. Smush it flat and reheat it.
+
+[34:50] Carrots are traditionally genius in a bag and good at uh Thanksgiving sweet potatoes. Brussels, I mean, everything is at Thanksgiving is overcooked anyway. So you I mean she's trying not to overcook it, Alex. But that's the point. But the point of Good Thanksgiving decides are that they're overcooked.
+
+[35:05] Aw, Jesus. I mean, come on, the br the Brussels sprout, they're I mean, they're they're they're caramelized, they're roasted, I mean, they're they're tender, they're just at overcooked. I mean, everything is controlled overcooked. Are you a fan of the a super overcooked broccoli that Steingarden likes, the hour and a half long cooked broccoli? I like tender broccoli, but I don't like brown broccoli.
+
+[35:23] All right. But anyway, I would do any of those, any of those are good. Remember, if you're gonna cook a vegetable in the bag and you're not adding a lot of liquid to the bag as a flavoring, or even if you're adding a liquid like oil instead of water, it takes a lot longer to cook something in the bag than it would in because there's not as much available water. So it's gonna take more on the order of what it would take to roast that vegetable in terms of time. And you also want, I mean, if you cook it at at you know lower than what, 85, it's not cooking.
+
+[35:50] Yeah, yeah, no. You could cook something at 70 for like four weeks and it's still gonna be crunchy. It changes its taste. Certainly, but it it that texture is still just gnawable. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:01] Definitely true. Uh we used to do that demo. It's fun. People get freaked out. You just leave it there all week.
+
+[36:07] Pull it out. All right. So back to the combu here. I've never wiped the combu off. I don't wipe the combo.
+
+[36:12] I which I mean it I I'm looking for that. I mean, that's why that's why we're using it. Right. Now it's somewhere in the back of my head, even though I reread my McGee and he said that it is actually that is what the crystals are on the surface. I have a little nagging thing in the back of my head that says that it's that current research says it's something else.
+
+[36:27] But even so, I just don't wipe the dang things off. All right. Second question. How uh from uh Andrew, uh, how often should water in a low temperature uh from Jason rather? How often should water in a low temperature cooker circulator be changed?
+
+[36:39] Well, that depends on how dirty it is. I mean, you're keeping it hopefully at a temperature where bacteria are continually being killed. Um but that said, I usually dump it out at the end of a service or at the end of a cook and then and then put in fresh. You you need to change the water. Okay.
+
+[36:54] If if you cook something in in the bag, there there is still aroma transfer. Yes, that's true. And and so unless you want to have you know but what kind of bag but look honestly, like I used to test bags based on their aroma transfer characteristics, and some are bad, but some are pretty some are pretty there are waters where you can have that's why people cook multiple things in the same water, do rethum in the same water. You think it's bad practice? I don't think it's a bad practice, but I I I mean if you I would change your water daily.
+
+[37:22] Especially uh in I mean if you're doing like one thing, then uh you're fine. But if if you mean if you're churning through a lot of stuff at restaurants. In a home situation, after I'm done cooking, I dump the water out. Right. You don't want to have standing water lying around.
+
+[37:35] Not so much. Yeah. It's not that much water anyway. No. So I mean sometimes it can be a pain in the butt if you know you're gonna cook the next day, I'm not changing the water because I'm gonna turn it on again the next one.
+
+[37:44] From from a bacterial safety standpoint, as long as your cooking temperatures are above 55 or so, you're not gonna hurt yourself. Right. It's just a question of whether or not it's gonna be nasty. That I that I think it's the nasty factor. You also don't want any flavors or aromas on the outside of your bag because it might drip water into something that you're gonna serve when you're debagging.
+
+[38:04] That is a good point. Yeah. So I would just change it. Uh you look, don't go changing in the middle of your procedure. Like that, no, no.
+
+[38:11] But you know, might as well just change it. Yeah. Anyway. Uh caller, you're on the air. Hey guys.
+
+[38:17] Uh this is Rolf calling from Philadelphia. Uh love the show. Thank you. Excellent. Uh question about as long as everybody's asking about umami today, and you'd already talked a little bit about combu.
+
+[38:29] What about wrapping and marinating things in combucking? Do you do you need how much moistening do you do before that? No. Uh can you do this after making dashi or at that point is it really spent? How long can you really leave it, you know, wrapped?
+
+[38:44] What's the what are some guidelines for protocols there? I've only used fresh uh kombu that's been lightly soaked to make it more pliable. I've never used kombu that I've made uh dashi with. Have you? No, we use the the put this we'll call it spent kambu uh for we're cutting it up into noodles and for salads and stuff like that.
+
+[39:04] You can marinate that. But like but for instance, okay, I'll give you our cur our basic technique is that you take and you uh you have to soak it a little bit to get it pliable, typically. We don't even we don't even soak. I mean, the more often than not we've got you know, let's say we're gonna do fish. It'll it'll kind of fit on there and then put the next layer and vacuum seal it and wraps around it.
+
+[39:22] Well you know, Nils used to do duck breast all the time. Look, here's how you know whether you got it right. You leave it overnight, by the way, it's long enough. But the like uh we when you I think when you peel off the combu, you should get little strings coming little mucus-y strings separating off between the surface of your product and the kombu. This means that you've done a good job.
+
+[39:43] I wouldn't I would not use combu that's already been um used in dashi. I think it's gonna be spent. And in the same sense, I wouldn't I wouldn't use Neils' duck breast kombu to make dashi. No, but that combu is delicious, sliced up and used as a salad, because we've done it. If your combu is good, some kombu you don't want to eat by itself because it's texture is no good.
+
+[40:04] The flavor is good, but the texture's no good. But we took the duck because we we actually he actually cooked actually uh in the bag with the combu on. Sounds amazing. Took it off, and then the combu was cooked already, and then we sliced it and used it as a salad, so it's good. I think it's a fantastic technique.
+
+[40:19] It's not just for fish anymore. You know, uh you know, I I've never done it on anything, it's not a protein. Uh we've done it on vegetables. How is it? It's delicious.
+
+[40:28] And then we flip that around too. I mean, we we think about uh Italian combu. What was that? Prosciutto. Uh so we we'll actually we'll actually thinly slice the prosciutto and then cure and and you know put it on fish, put it on vegetables, and let it infuse with the uh the the flavors as well.
+
+[40:44] But it doesn't make the strings though, does it? We have not gotten strings. No. No. But you do you get strings with the combu on the vegetables?
+
+[40:50] I haven't gotten strings on the vegetables. I've just done it for the flavor of the of the combo itself on the vegetables. Excellent, excellent question. I mean, have you have do you have any experience, caller, with uh the combu stuff, or are you just calling to ask about it? Because it is a great technique.
+
+[41:02] Well, yeah, it's it's uh something I had read about, and I've been making dashi uh quite a bit lately, and figured what the heck, I have all this stuff sitting around. May as well try it. You you may as well indeed. You might want to find the Japanese typically use different combos for wrapping uh than they do for making dashi, but in the small amount of experiments that I ran, I think if the stuff tastes good for dashi, it tastes good for uh it tastes good for wrapping. I don't know why I don't know what the reasons are for them using the different ones for different uh applications, but if it tastes good for dashi, it tastes good for uh combuping as well.
+
+[41:40] I would agree with that. Well so I'm just looking for mucusy strings. Uh on on skins of protein, that's what I have found. Uh I've only done it with fish and duck, though. But that's like then you know you get that that look when you peel it off and it just like right, Alex.
+
+[41:54] You know what I'm talking about? I haven't gotten the mucusy strings on our fish, but we've only done maybe six, eight hours or so on fish. Oh, yeah. Okay, so the the first time I ever saw it demonstrated was a guy that did Saba sushi, which is mackerel sushi. And he would basically form it up, put the combu over it and let it cure pressed overnight, and then he peeled it up, and you get the phew those like Do we know what the strings are?
+
+[42:14] I have no idea. Note to Sylph. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good thing to research. But anyway, take take a look for it.
+
+[42:19] Also, you should um you should try to look for the incredibly delicious flavor that you'll have. There there is that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[42:26] Thanks for the call. That's good stuff. Sure. Thanks. Okay.
+
+[42:29] Hello, Dave and Nastasha and Alex, although Dan didn't know you would be here, so he didn't call you out. Hello from the West Coast. Uh I appreciate your show. Uh you guys have the best food pack podcast I found. Thank you.
+
+[42:39] Thank you so much. Um right now it's apple season in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I've been thinking about a dish I had at Moogritz in Spain s uh several years ago. This was a local uh cheese plate served with calcium fossilized apple. The apple is peeled with the stem left on and cooked in what we were told was calcium water. As a result, the inside of the apple was soft and scoopable and the outside had a skin a bit like a dried apple, and I thought it was amazing.
+
+[43:01] So how does this work? I was hoping that it might be within the range of a dedicated home cook. I found something called fossil powder and who when the guys who make fossil powder claim it's safier safer than calcium oxide out of Australia, but there wasn't any information out there about ratios or procedures. What do you think of this technique? This m that meal is the only time I've ever seen or heard about this being done.
+
+[43:19] Okay. Well, first of all, never use calcium oxide, uh, which is like dangerous stuff. You throw it in water and it heats up and uh does all sorts of nasty things. What you want is calcium hydroxide, which is uh where you take calcium oxide, someone else adds it to water, deals with the high temperature and the powder left over. Uh which is what Moogaritz uses.
+
+[43:40] Right, and we actually uh saw Antony present at Starchef's on that whole topic, and then uh Paul Librant from Corton extrapolated off of that using instead of uh calcium hydroxide, he actually used soaked sun chokes in a solution of calcium lactate. Did it work? It did work. Yeah. Uh and we wrote about it.
+
+[43:57] There's actually a whole piece on our website on it, and what it is is it's not so much the the calcium hydroxide, but you're you're getting the reaction between the calcium and the pectin in the vegetables or the fruits. Yeah. Uh you know, I've done I've done I had something on the blog about uh, you know, if you add baking soda, which is basic to if you add baking soda to water, uh your vegetables stay green, but they get mushy. If you add calcium hydroxide, which is basic, they will stay green, but they will also stay firm because there's calcium in them. Uh, you know, traditional use of calcium hydroxide to make vegetables.
+
+[44:31] I mean, it's been used for hundreds, if not thousands of years in places like Thailand, where uh you know calcium hydroxide in the form of uh Thai lime paste has been used to firm up the outsides of bananas. Uh it's used in pickling to firm up uh cucumbers. You're not gonna get hurt. You can't OD on it because calcium hydroxide is not very soluble in water. It's really, really bitter.
+
+[44:54] Horribly bitter. Yeah, but it's not that soluble. So typically here's what you do. Porous vegetables though, porous vegetables suck it in like there's no tomorrow, and you have problems. When you're using a uh a calcium solution, what they do commercially is they'll soak it for a while, they'll get the calcium interaction, then they'll soak it in pure water to get rid of the excess calcium.
+
+[45:14] Uh that's what they do. We we we played that game. I mean, like, look, you don't like calcium hydroxide? I'm not really making a uh smoothie with it tomorrow, no. What about tortillas, brother?
+
+[45:25] I I I I like the results. But the, I mean, in in in like we did Asian pears soaked in in calcium hydroxide for a number of hours, then rinsed it off and then roasted them. Unfortunately, had a bit of an inherent bitterness to them. Um then we we actually then switched back to calcium chloride. Uh chloride.
+
+[45:42] Chloride's better than hydroxide, but I I'm still going more towards what what Mr. Librant was doing, which was with lactate. Hey, listen, why don't we forget all this crazy calcium crap and just go buy some pectin methylester uh peck and pectin meth methyl esterase, novo shape. You can stick blueberries uh and raspberries into uh pectin methylesterase, aka novo shape, which is an enzyme, and uh boil the hell out of them and they won't and they won't break. You ever done that?
+
+[46:11] We have not. It works like a charm. I was looking for it yesterday because I have to do something with pears. I didn't want them breaking up. Anyway, it's totally safe uh to do it.
+
+[46:20] It's about look, you there calcium hydroxide supersaturates extremely quickly. So you're not gonna get more. I mean, the amount of calcium that it's used is gonna depend on how what the absorption rate of the of the product is. That's why the the limiting thing is actually not the amount of water and it's the amount of calcium hydroxide to product that you put in. And you also need to make sure you've got uh a fair amount of pectin in that product.
+
+[46:45] Otherwise it won't firm. It won't firm. Yeah, yeah. But that's a great technique. Uh I mean, I I'm saying this, I've never had it.
+
+[46:51] It it we had a blast with it. There's we did it with uh white sweet potatoes, and then we did it with orange sweet potatoes that we broke apart, soaked them, and then we uh we braised them in uh like a meat jus and then glazed them. And they had this regular shape to it, but soft on the outside, textured on the outside, or soft on the inside, textured on the outside. You ever you ever uh but I never had it moogeries? Never been.
+
+[47:10] Nah, I have not been. I'd love to go. Okay. Uh we're gonna have to rip through the rest of these questions because we're running late as usual. Hello, Dave and Nastasha.
+
+[47:17] Thanks for your advice on modernist style cheese sauce. I ended up using this is uh from Matthew. I ended up using a version of Miravold's mac and cheese. Uh it involves sodium citrate, which is a uh a melting salt and iota carrageen. It worked really well.
+
+[47:29] Good, I'm glad. Uh my question today is if you've ever tried these vegan cheeses that a guy named Dr. Cow makes in Williamsburg. I haven't, as a uh this writing, tried them, but people say they are super good, especially as cashew cream cheese. And I imagine Nastasha's making her vegan face as uh as I write this.
+
+[47:46] Yeah, she is making her vegan face. Uh I looked up, look, I like that. I I've had it. When I was on that raw food for a week, I had the cashew cheeses, not his, but somebody else's. They taste good.
+
+[47:56] They're not cheese. It's no well, I mean that's it. It it is it is an idea or is it an actuality? It's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a worthwhile food product. Okay.
+
+[48:05] It ain't cheese. It's not cheese. No, I I agree with you. I mean, you it it it's giving you a uh a frame of reference. Right.
+
+[48:10] Uh I'm gonna go more into this in a in a minute, but caller, you're on the air. Hi there. Um hi Alex and Dave. This is Brian calling from San Francisco. Hello.
+
+[48:18] Um question is about cook cookware and non-stick surfaces. Um what's safe, what's not safe? Um uh sometimes I smell some off-gassing when I eat it too hot. Wow, how hot were you heating it? What's your what's the deal and what should I know?
+
+[48:34] How hot were you heating it? Um I don't know. I had it on on the on the high flame for you know ten minutes or so. Oh, yeah, yeah. That probably a bad idea, genes were worn.
+
+[48:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the I don't know about the toxicity of the surface once it vaporizes. I think they assume that you're gonna do it eventually, so it's probably it's not like Viton, which uh, you know, the certain certain polymers degrade into very toxic things when they're burned. Faint plastic wrap. Really?
+
+[49:04] Polyethylene is very toxic when it burns? I don't know, it stinks. Yeah, probably stink. But like Vitans is dangerous as hell when it vaporizes. But Teflon, which is not used in pans, so don't worry.
+
+[49:14] Teflon, I don't know when it decomposes what whether it's actually dangerous. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily use the I mean the pan is toasted after that, right? I mean, I've seen them close to. I mean, but I've seen cooks rip on on those Teflon pans, and I know I know extreme heats are not supposed to be used for them. Because they eventually start breaking down the Teflon coating.
+
+[49:35] By the way, you'll have to just go back and tell me what the question was again, because all I had in my head was an image of a pan on the heat and it it combusts. Okay, are there safe nonstick coatings? If so, which one should I should I get? Um it it's it's a question of of safety. I've never I don't think it's a sa I don't personally feel it's a safety question.
+
+[49:55] There are people who feel what do you think? Do you feel it personally it's a safety question, Alex? I have heard it. I have not tested it, and so I feel uh probably not knowledgeable enough to answer appropriately. I think that that's accurate.
+
+[50:07] I mean, like I think my problem I'm looking for this way. I have several nonstick pans. I have never had a nonstick pan, no matter what they say that can actually stand up to years of abuse. Well, I mean, the the also think non stick is means you're you're probably cooking something gently. If I mean if if you're you know roasting a ribeye in your nonstick pan, you've probably chosen the wrong pan.
+
+[50:25] Because it doesn't have to get a font. Yeah, I mean it's you know you have to use the right tool for the right job. I mean, there's these hard anodized aluminum things that are supposed to be non stick. That's probably fairly safe, right? I don't touch those things, man.
+
+[50:37] Really? What? I've never used one. I don't like aluminum pans. And maybe it's just a preference, but you don't like aluminum pans?
+
+[50:42] Good heat conduction. I don't know, man. They may have good heat conducting. I you're you uh old school anti-aluminum? Yeah.
+
+[50:49] You still believe the Alzheimer's story? I don't believe the Alzheimer's story. Or I I think I think. Yeah. Well, you know, you people used to think that uh that uh aluminum pans could contribute to Alzheimer's because aluminum ions uh aluminum uh was found in the brain tissue of uh certain uh elevated amounts are found in the brain tissue of certain patients who have an autopsy with Alzheimer's, but I believe that that lake has been um disproven.
+
+[51:12] So why do you have a luminate pants? Uh more often than not we're using some sort of acid. Oh yeah. All right. Um so w whether it be a pan sauce or deglazing or something like that, and so anyway, I don't think it's a safe I mean look, maybe it's a safety issue.
+
+[51:25] I'm more worried about it being a functional issue is that once they're toasted, they're they're n not good anymore, and then you get like micro sticking and they're a pain in the butt. Yeah, and they're no good anymore. They're no good anymore. I mean look, and then like you know, they tell you not to wash them in the dishwasher, and then scan pan said that you could wash ours in the dishwasher. Guess what?
+
+[51:42] I did, and you know what? The pan got ruined. So you can't wash it in the dishwasher. Well, that's what they say. Yeah, they said you can't wash you they said ours are so tough that you can wash it in the dishwasher and use metal tools on it.
+
+[51:53] Well I'm like, okay, I'll take you at your word and I'll use it in a dishwasher and I'll use metal tools. Then got messed up. Like within like a year, year and a half, it got messed up. Then they came out later with a second uh version of scan pan stuff and they're like, Oh, this yeah, this one actually works. I haven't tested it yet.
+
+[52:07] I don't know. You ought to just take it in for a uh changeover. Yeah. I know, but I'm not like that. Like even think something has a guarantee, it's like, you know, I'm just so lazy.
+
+[52:14] I'm not gonna show up with something and say honor your guarantee. Yeah, but yeah, you'll go out and buy fifty-two different versions of it and test it. Yeah, I'm a joke. Anyway. Anyway, I hope that was helpful.
+
+[52:25] Thank you. Thank you. All right, so back on this uh cheese thing. Here's my problem. Look, look, the vegan cheese is basically what you do is you you you use uh nuts, you grind them up, you ferment them somehow using some version of like uh either what they call probiotics, which is another one of these crazy terms that I don't uh has marginal meaning.
+
+[52:43] And they and uh and rejuvelac, which is basically fermenting sprouted grain stuff. Uh and it ferments and acidifies and somehow coagulates. Although I looked tried to look up the mechanism of nut cheeses, and no one's written a scholarly article that I could find on it. Uh but that said, I looked up the SuperCow or whatever it is, Mr. Cow website, and one of the benefits they have in their plant is they have a tachyonized uh electrical panel.
+
+[53:09] And I had to go look up what tachyonized meant. What does tachyonized mean? Because there's a guy had me attack. Yeah, well, so tachyons are a hypothetical particle that uh move faster than the speed of light that's been posited in some versions of uh uh uh physics uh that is obviously never been observed. And this guy claims that he can by using these tachyons in a machine that tachyonizes material, that he can increase the positive energy in the things around you and him.
+
+[53:42] I read about this in Calvin and Hobbes. For real? No. Oh, anyways. So I am very uh uh, you know, tachyonized.
+
+[53:51] Jesus, tachyonized. But that said, uh there is a very interesting thing about faster-than-light particles happening right now at CERN, where they think they did uh uh detected a neutrino that was going faster than the speed of light, uh, and they're currently trying to reduplicate the experiment. Those guys are no joke uh stuff. It should be due in November. So it's a very exciting time to be thinking about faster-than-light particles.
+
+[54:13] All right, Matthew has another question. I periodically get in debates. Actually, we'll do this one, we'll we'll do we'll do the one comment and then we'll finish off with this guy. What and then we have this one here. That was Ooh, how do you open an oyster with LN?
+
+[54:23] Uh we got that, or do you have it? Yeah, you t I mean, I've tried it, but the problem is, and Miraville really recommends it, but the problem I've always had is that if you try to open an oyster, shuck an oyster by using liquid nitrogen, is that you get partial freezing of the thing and then it works well. We've done it. We we we do like twelve to fifteen seconds for oysters or clams, drop it in and then let it thaw, and they pop themselves and they're beautiful. They're unbelievable.
+
+[54:44] Yeah, but you're freezing the oyster. You don't have you ever done a side by side. Do it do a side by side with me. Do a hand shuck and then do an LN shuck. And like uh do a triangle test, like f like f five reps.
+
+[54:58] And I want I I look, I'm I want to know if the freezing does anything to the taste. Perfect. All right. When are we doing this? Uh whenever.
+
+[55:05] All right. We gotta do it. I mean, look, it works. It m it works great. Clam clams are off the hook.
+
+[55:09] I mean, they're the plumpest clams. And when one of the things is I noticed that when when you're shucking them this way, is there's no there's no breaking at all of any of the oyster or clam membranes. So you end up with a plumper, just a visually aesthetic. You have side by side, and I've shucked them and it's supposed to be. So we'll have to blindfold.
+
+[55:25] You have to blindfold. All right. Or unless unless unless visual is is part of the No, let's just do ta we'll do both. Okay. But first we should do taste, blindfold.
+
+[55:34] All right, so we'll do it. We'll do it. That's it. Uh there's no question that it actually works. It works, yeah, and it's it's 12 to 15 seconds in nitrogen, pull it out, let it rest in the refrigerator, and they'll pop themselves and then just use a spoon.
+
+[55:46] Or you can run it under lightland or warm water and they'll just speed up the process. Danielle Mullen writes in was uh hello, was reading about some reviews of ramen places in New York City and who's making the best bowl in the city, etc. I'm interested in starting to cook my own noodles and broth, and I was wondering if you had a favorite way for making the noodles. Fat or thin, do you cut them yourself, etc.? Do you use traditional consway or eggs?
+
+[56:06] I think if you're gonna make ramen, you have to use consway. Being the uh alkalizing uh agent that they use to make them A, yellow and B stretchy. We use baking soda and we use actually unbaked baking soda. But it's it'll mean does it go yellow? It gives it you get a slight tint, but you don't get that fill.
+
+[56:24] You get chew, and and it also makes them well uh easier not to overcook. Right. The here's the thing. You don't want like uh traditionally they're not cut, they're extruded, and uh look, Alex uh and Aki were fortunate enough to weasel uh an arco bellino amazing pasta extruder out of the company, uh which is like is offense for look if you like you have like 2,000 bucks jingling in your pocket and you want a pasta extruder. Find another 2600 bucks and then you can have one now that's two.
+
+[56:52] Yeah, it's gonna be 25 for the AEX 10, which is coming out, and that's that's including dyes, etc. It does just as good a job, it just doesn't have the auto-cut and doesn't have as many dyes, right? Doesn't have as many dyes and a little bit smaller, but it's the same guy, it's the same beast. It's awesome. This sucker is not that much bigger than a cuisinar, by the way, folks, and it really does a number on pasta.
+
+[57:10] Like, I was the first to think that a small pasta extruder would be a load of horse horse manure, and I was like, this is gonna suck. This thing is amazing. It's an amazing machine. Yeah. Uh anywho, you can hand cut them though, but they're very stretchy, is the is is the issue.
+
+[57:24] They're supposed to be stretchy. Uh I would use consway, uh, which you can get at any Asian uh market, and then you can tell if it's working, the flour will go yellow, and all of a sudden it'll get stretchy, which is characteristic of this. Here's the trick with ramen. Ramen, you like you know, you lightly cook it beforehand, you fry it. It partially dehydrated by frying.
+
+[57:43] So you have to fry ramen noodles. That's the real, not a secret. I mean, you can look it up, that's how you do it. But ramen noodles are cooked, fried uh as a dehydration process, and then I think further dehydrated and then rehydrated again. But that's characteristic of ramen.
+
+[57:57] I don't know whether the restaurants do that, but they should. I have not I've not heard that frying thing, so once again. Yeah, that's how they f you fry them. At least that's my memory. I didn't re I look this question came in right now, so this is coming from my memory.
+
+[58:07] Someone call me in and tell me I'm a moron, uh, which happens quite often. Okay, last up, uh I periodically get in debates with my girlfriend on the subject of using Fantastic Lysol or other such sprays to help me wash pots and pans. She firmly believes that I should not. I believe they help to sterilize and get crud off of things that if I thoroughly rinse the items, it's a safe practice. This assuming the stuff I am washing is non-porous.
+
+[58:30] Am I being a jackass or what? Huh. Well, uh, I looked up the MSDSs on uh Fantastic and uh and some of the Lysols. There's a bunch of Lysols out there. Um and but before I do this, I mean, look, you don't need a disinfectant for your pan because you're about to put it on a on a in on a flame again.
+
+[58:53] You know what I mean? Let it rip. Yeah, you yeah. Especially if it's that Teflon pan. Yeah.
+
+[58:58] But uh, but but uh you know what those things have in them is surfactants that help get rid of oil, right? Uh all of those household products are meant to volatilize and not leave residues on your surfaces. So you're probably going to be okay. If you're actually looking at a sanitizer, though, I would go with good old fashioned bleach. I like bleach.
+
+[59:22] I mean, bleach is great for a number of reasons. It's easy to purchase. Uh, you can use it in very dilute um look, you're really only wanting to use uh between uh a tablespoon and an ounce per gallon as a sanitizing solution. I mean, don't ever go over uh like half a cup per gallon for normal sanitizing because you're gonna have a lot of residual chlorine. You don't need it.
+
+[59:44] Like those lower amounts are gonna provide enough sanitizing to do it. Soak your stuff in that, and chlorine in those small amounts will volatilize as the thing dries and leave no residue at all. And then you're good. Then you're good to go. I mean, like chlorine's not good at getting the crap off of it.
+
+[1:00:00] You need to get the crap off beforehand. Which is elbow grease. Which is elbow. But before that, uh do that. Now, what is in Fantastic?
+
+[1:00:06] Okay. Uh, first of all, this is hilarious. I've never seen this in an MSDS. Uh they put this down color blue, odor fresh. Oh, that's that we can do that in an MSDS, huh?
+
+[1:00:17] Yeah, fresh, very fresh. And the other one I looked up there, the disinfectant fantastic was color blue, odor pleasant. I MSDS, by the way, is manufacture material safety data sheet. Yep. Okay.
+
+[1:00:31] So what's in Fantastic? Propylene glycol monobutyl ether, uh, ether. And that's a solvent and a coupling agent. It helps lock the grease and get it off, is what it is. Uh if you feed a whole boatload of that to rats, their liver will uh get cancer, but uh it doesn't happen to us so much.
+
+[1:00:47] It volatilizes fairly quickly, uh it evaporates, um, and we're not eating boatloads of it. The other main thing in it is alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride, aka benzyl alconium chloride. ADBAC is highly toxic to fish and uh aquatic invertebrates, but it's not gonna hurt us in small amounts, and uh, you know, don't drink it. I mean, that's the old common sense rule. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:12] Lysol could have a bunch of stuff in it, uh including um isoprobyl alcohol, potassium hydroxide, why the hell would it have potassium hydroxide in it? That I don't know. Weird, huh? Uh, and also more of the ADBAC and some other cool antiseptic properties. But here's what I found out about Lysol.
+
+[1:01:28] You ready for this? Go for it. You know what lysol was originally sold as? In the 20s? Deodorant.
+
+[1:01:33] Feminine hygiene product. I was close. You were supposed to douche with this stuff. Fabulous. Not really.
+
+[1:01:39] I could I could I could not believe it. So I was a Wikipedia reference, so I was like, I don't trust Wikipedia on this, right? So I went and I saw a whole bunch of advertisements. Uh, and they were the like it just goes to show how, as a culture, uh, we were just an offensive bunch of uh people back in the day to suggest that here's how awful the ads were. They would put ads in women's magazines, and I'll read you some on the way out.
+
+[1:02:07] Ready? Uh by the way, before I start reading the Lysol copy from the 40s, which uh hopefully, if you have any sort of heart or soul, are going to make you uh be upset at the Lysol Corporation. But uh thank you, uh Alex, for being with us today. We had we had a great time. Um good to be here.
+
+[1:02:23] Okay, from 1949, uh in a women's magazine. Uh a picture uh picture an advertisement, a woman beating against a door and not being able to make through the door. Too late to cry out in anguish. Be aware of the of one of the one intimate neglect that can engulf you in marital grief. Too late when love is gone for a wife to plead that no one warned her of danger, because a wise, considerate wife makes it her business to find out how to safeguard her daintiness in order to protect precious married love and happiness.
+
+[1:02:55] One of the soundest ways for a wife to keep married love in bloom is to achieve dainty allure by practicing effective feminine hygiene, such as regular vaginal douches with reliable Lysol. Cooking issues. Vicious Vicious vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner.
+
+[1:03:30] And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] You know when you're wrapping up a long day and that what's for dinner panic hits? Well, when you've got convenient everyday protein from Omaha Steaks waiting at home, that panic turns into your weeknight win. And now's the time to buy during Omaha Steaks Spring Savings Event. Save big on their exclusive lineup of mouthwatering steaks, gourmet burgers, air chilled chicken, pork, seafood, and more. All delivered right to your door.
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+[0:24] Plus, get an extra $35 off with promo code AUDIO when you shop OmahaStakes.com today. With over 100 years of unrivaled quality and variety, Omaha Stakes understands what you need to get dinner done. Plus, every bite is backed by their 100% guarantee. Omaha Stakes is your weeknight win. So get the world's best everyday protein during their spring savings event.
+
+[0:48] Go to OmahaStakes.com for an extra $35 off when you use promo code AUDIO at checkout. That's OmahaStakes.com. Promo code AUDIO. Terms apply. See site for details.
+
+[1:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245 in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Joined as always uh with uh my co-host Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:39] Hello. Hi. On this fine Tuesday morning, how are you today? Fine. Good, good.
+
+[1:43] All right. Today's cooking issues, number 61, I might add. Well, by the way, today is a happy birthday to my mom issue. My mom's birthday today. Happy birthday.
+
+[1:53] Yeah, right. It's not like she listens to it. What's that name? Linda Dr. Linda J.
+
+[1:58] Adonisio. She runs the heart transplant program at uh Columbia University, the uh Piatric Heart Transplant Program. Yeah, she's badass. Anyway. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry.
+
+[2:11] This show should just be sponsored by them. Like all the time. Yeah. Anyway, alright. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook.
+
+[2:20] Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask.
+
+[2:46] Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry now carries three types of gel and gum, including Calco Gel F, low ASO Gel N, and Calco Gel LT100 high ASL gel. What's the other one? High Low.
+
+[3:05] That's it. High low and a mix. Farran uh sells something called uh gel an or gelanio or whatever he calls it in the Spanish stuff. And what it is, it's a mix of the high ASO gum and the low acel gel and gum. So for those of you that don't know, well, I'll finish that thing first, then we'll get into it.
+
+[3:19] Uh fans of cooking issues that place an order of $35 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of gel an. Simply use the promo code CI61 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com. Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay.
+
+[3:37] So uh gel an, right, is interesting because it's uh it's one of the newer hydrocolloids. It's a product of uh microbial fermentation. And it's made by Kelko uh CP Kelko. Piper, our uh old intern Piper now is working for CP Coco because it's a family business. He moved out to California, correct?
+
+[3:55] Wow. Isn't that true? He was either about to or he just moved out to California. No, he took the job. Anyway, he's working for CP Calco.
+
+[4:01] So the cool thing about uh gel N is this one, Gel N can be used for certification because it requires calcium to set. So if you have very, very pure water or you use what's called a sequestrant, which binds up to calcium, you can do sterification. I don't really like sturification, so that's now what interests me. But what is cool about gel an is it has a very good mouthfeel, it has very good flavor release, and you use it in very small quantities to get a fairly firm gel, which means that you're not gonna mask uh flavors a lot. The other cool thing about gel an is that once you make the gel, you can boil it and it's not gonna go away.
+
+[4:34] So, really, really hot gels, people use uh gel an. Also, the cool thing is that the high ASOL gel an is very rubbery and stretchy and bouncy, and the low ASL gel an is very brittle. And by combining the two, you can get any kind of texture in between that you want. Gel An also makes very good fluid gels. Oh, we have a caller?
+
+[4:55] Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi there. Um my name's John. I've called in uh once before. Uh I know you uh last couple weeks you've been talking about um hunters and how they should really get an immersion circulator to cook their cook their kills.
+
+[5:10] Um so I mentioned that to a hunter buddy of mine, and he's actually uh his dad actually got a deer last night. Nice. So I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations as far as um what uh you know what preparation and stuff. Uh and it sounds like the most likely cut that he's gonna get out of this is uh you said the uh r rear, so it'd be like a ham, I guess, out of the hind quarter area. Right.
+
+[5:36] Is he is he is he splitting it with other people, you mean the the uh the Yeah, it's like he's splitting it with him and his dad, maybe. Ah, yeah. So he's getting the so his dad's taking the loins and all that, huh? Yes. I think the loin is probably the best part.
+
+[5:47] So he's getting a ham cut. How old is the deer? Is it very is it young? Uh don't know how old it is. It's a buck though, so they're worried it might be a little bit uh gamey.
+
+[5:57] Right. And that that's one of the reasons uh I asked, because cooking low temp isn't going to take any of the gaminess out out of the meat, right? So, like for instance, if you get like, you know, a very very young deer, like the liver is good, but it goes incredibly livery in an older deer. Uh but I don't let me see. So for meat that is gamey, tendency is when you cook it, the longer you cook it, the more you accentuate that kind of gaminess.
+
+[6:24] Right. Right. So then the other question is kind of uh, and how old the animal is is gonna determine roughly how tough the meat is, right? Right. So if you like gaminess.
+
+[6:35] Right now, in general, the deer is not gonna be very fatty. So even a young tender deer, if you overcook it, it's shot. You know what I'm saying? Because it's gonna dry out. So here are the basic parameters.
+
+[6:45] Typically, in a gamey animal, the longer you cook it, the uh more gamey it gets. Now, if you like that gamey taste, that's not necessarily a problem. All right. The more connective tissue that's in an animal, the longer you need to cook it to tenderize it at a given temperature. Right?
+
+[7:01] Right. And the less fat is in an animal, the drier it's gonna get the instant you overcook it. So these are the three things you have to play with. Now for uh low temp, like on a deer loin or something like that, I like low, like 55, 56 Celsius, right? Right.
+
+[7:14] And you don't need to cook it that long. Now the question is how long if you're going to use those cooking temperatures, how long do you need to cook uh the different muscles in the hind quarter to get them to be tender? It's probably going to be a while, in which case it's going to be gamey. I you know I would recommend um like this Well I know he does cut these things like steaks. Uh I mean he says he basically is cutting he said he's cutting steaks out of the ham area.
+
+[7:44] So I think he treats them much like he would something from the loin. Right. I mean I'd I had bag I'd bag them in butter. I wouldn't salt them because you might have to cook them for a long time and if you cook them for a long time you're going to lose some of the juiciness if they're pre-salted. I would bag them in butter without any uh or oil whatever but uh you know something that's not gonna affect the flavor in a negative way I would not add salt until uh the secondary process you can sear it beforehand if you want it bag it and then if you want to cook it like a steak he has to in his mind he has to come up with what he thinks the equivalent steak is right so uh I'll give you some examples like uh a skirt steak if you're only gonna cook it for like 30 minutes you want to cook a skirt steak at 57.
+
+[8:24] If you're gonna cook a skirt steak for four hours low temp right then you're gonna want to go down to 55, 56 Celsius because it's gonna tenderize over that and it's gonna taste better at those lower temperatures. Does make sense? Mm-hmm. Also you're not gonna want to cut it too thin or you're gonna ruin all of your good work when you do the search. See one of the ways that people do game meats a lot even in the hind quarter, right?
+
+[8:46] Uh, like for instance, I've had lion meat this way and bear meat this way. They'll cut very, very thin steaks, almost like uh you know, pork chops used to be, and then uh and then they'll just high heat pan them real quick. And it'll basically the fact that the meat is tough and overcooked is gonna be ameliorated by the fact that you have the nice taste from the searing and it's cut so thin that your teeth are gonna be able to make it through anyway, but that's not what we're looking for. Right? Right.
+
+[9:11] We're looking to actually cook the meat properly. So you're gonna want to cut a relatively thick steak. So if he's saying he's steak cutting it, you want to find out kind of what thickness he's going for. I would go on the thicker side, like you would for a regular, like a good beef steak, and then just run a test with a small cube and see how tender it gets if you cook it at let's say fifty-five for eight hours. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[9:35] And then just really okay. Yeah, just see like as a ballpark start. Just take a small cube of it without searing it, because I don't want to know anything about what happens. I want to know what happens to the tenderness and the flavor of the meat itself. Uh do that and see whether it goes.
+
+[9:48] If it's mushy, it means you cooked it too long. If it's not tender, it means you haven't cooked it long enough. If it's very gamey, try to up the temperature a degree and and chop the time down by a lot. And if it's uh, you know, if it's just not if it's just undercooked for your taste, then obviously uh, you know, raise the tap. And if it's uh similarly, if it's overcooked for your taste, lower it a little bit.
+
+[10:10] Don't go below about 54 uh 54.4 Celsius if you're gonna cook it for a long time just for safety reasons, uh, and you're not gonna want to go above fifty-seven. So it's like that's your whole range of cooking right there. Perfect. Okay, cool. We'll experiment with that then.
+
+[10:26] Um can you when you when you're done, uh you can ask another question. When you're done, will you please write or call in, tell us what happened? Sure, yeah. Maybe I'll take some pictures too. Nice.
+
+[10:34] Um just thinking about uh so I you know, I did uh um a dinner this weekend with some friends, and and um my wife just loves um, you know, uh steak tenderloin. So that's what I did, and that's you know, a crowd pleaser, it's you know, easy to do fifty-five, hour and hour and a half, and and you know, it's nice and tender, sear it off. The one time I have tried different cuts of steak, I think I was a New York strip. I basically use the same technique. And I know that um, you know, from your charts and stuff, uh you know, I think New York strip is considered a tender cut, so that's pretty much the same technique I applied, but it was really tough.
+
+[11:10] Um and I don't know if that was a function of just not a very good cut of meat, or do I need to cook a cut like that longer? Okay, so a strip, depending on uh well, you know, strip does have that piece of uh cartilage running underneath the fat line right up at the at the top, but you're not talking about that. You're talking about the whole, yeah, the whole hunk in general, I think was kind of just not very not very tender. What temperature did you use? I it w I it's been a while, but I think it was basically fifty-five.
+
+[11:36] Yeah. You know, what you medium rare. Fifty-five is a fine temperature for strip. It's great temperature for rib, for instance. It's a fine temperature for uh for for ri you know um uh ribeye.
+
+[11:49] Uh but the uh you might want to take the strip up to fifty-six or just cook it just cook it longer. I think uh, you know, a a strip in general, when we cook strips, I like to cook them at least two hours at fifty five um to soften them up, and actually I think they're kind of at their optimum at around four. Uh really, okay. At that range of four hours. They're not gonna go gamey on you, and you're not gonna break them down too much.
+
+[12:14] So I would say a fifty-five, which is a good number, I would cook it for about four hours, uh, no salt beforehand. Uh otherwise it's gonna lose some of its texture. And I would then uh drop the temperature of the circulator to 50 for about half hour or so uh just to let it uh between half hour and forty-five minutes to let it uh the temperature in the center of the steak come down to fifty, and then just sear the bejesus out of the outside. And why you just drop the temperature so you don't overcook it when you sear it? Bingo.
+
+[12:46] Okay. Yeah, that's the only reason. And you know, it if you have like uh I for instance, I did this uh just last night, is uh I I cooked a whole bunch of steaks on uh Sunday in a bag, unsalted, um rib steaks at 55, and then I had one uh left over because somebody cancelled on me. So I just left it in the bag, and then I uh I heated it up last night. I threw it uh uh cooked on Saturday rather.
+
+[13:14] I threw it in a uh in the circulator, but I put my retherm at 50, right? Re-therm it for 35 minutes and then sear it, right? So you're not gonna have any safety issues because you're only keeping it at 50 for a very short amount of time, and the rest of the time it was kept in the safe zone, and then you can flash it off. So if you if you don't want to worry about exactly you know dropping it at the right time and you're gonna cook it ahead of time, then you can just do your retherm at 50 and then steer it off, and you're not gonna have any problems. Right.
+
+[13:45] Great. Alrighty? Thanks for calling and let us know how the deer uh came out. We'll do keep up the good work. Super, thank you.
+
+[13:53] All right, so back to gel in. What? Yeah, well, let me finish the gel in before we go to break. Anyway. So if uh uh I had something to tell you about that too, about the about the steak.
+
+[14:04] Oh, you know what? My stepfather says I speak very, very quickly. Is that true? It's very true. I speak quick.
+
+[14:09] He says I speak uh more quickly on the radio than I actually do in the real life. Is that true? I fear if I open my mouth before I say something, you're gonna cut me off right before I say it. Uh past you speak. That's a confirmation.
+
+[14:19] Yeah. Anyway, whatever. What the who the hell wants to talk slow when they're on the radio? I mean, am I unintelligible? All right, right, all right.
+
+[14:28] Okay, okay. So gel an. So uh so gel the other cool thing J-an does is it makes a uh fluid gel. And a fluid gel is something where you make a gel and you shear it into very, very small particles. The particles tend to uh kind of adhere to each other when it's at rest and they form a gel.
+
+[14:44] Uh it what's acts like a gel, and then when you shear it, i.e. in your mouth or by pouring it or spooning it or anything like that, it reverts to the properties of a liquid, makes a fluid gel. Gel-in! Great stuff. Uh we like it a lot.
+
+[14:55] That's what we use for our ice cream that we uh I'm bleeding? Yeah. My nose is bleeding. Uh, but not through not through the nose hole, the bridge of the nose. In case you guys are getting grossed out that there's like blood shooting out of my nostrils while I'm talking, it's not true.
+
+[15:06] I scraped the bridge of my nose, is what Nastash is telling me. Anyway, now Nastash has an image of me blowing uh blood out of my uh nose holes. Anyway, nose holes. So uh gel-in, really good stuff. Uh we use it to make our hyper creamy torchable ice cream.
+
+[15:23] Anyway, with that, uh call in your questions to 718. What is it? Oh my god, I forgot. 74972128. That's right.
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+[15:30] 7184972128. We're gonna go to our first commercial break, cooking issues. Love that song, right? What was that noise? You don't like Stevie Wonder?
+
+[16:33] I got a glitter in my throat. Oh. I've got That's a new one. I've got glitter in my throat. Alright.
+
+[16:39] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Hey Nastach, it was fun having uh Talbot on the show last week, right? Mm-hmm. He was fun guest. Mm-hmm.
+
+[16:45] Yeah. You guys enjoy the Talbot over there in the booth? Yeah? Thumbs up? Yeah, he's awesome.
+
+[16:50] Yeah, he's a good man. How was his other show that he recorded? He's good. He pulled a marathon and he was here all day. I know it.
+
+[16:55] He was just sitting out in Roberta's, like, you know, with his earphones in, being totally antisocial. I ran into him like, oh my god, how's Talbot? Come on the show. He may have slept here. I'm not even sure.
+
+[17:03] He did? In the morning or in the evening or both? After all the shows, you know. Yeah, just slept. Couldn't make it back to Philly.
+
+[17:07] Exactly. Nice. Nice. Okay. So calling your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[17:13] That's 718497-2128. Gonna go to some rate uh writing questions, right? Is that what we call him? Writing questions? Yeah.
+
+[17:19] Email. Can you give me the glitter noise again? Um I'm just getting over something too, so I have the same laugh my grandpa used to, which is always like coughing. It's like start laughing and then coughing. So it reminds me of reminds me of being mean to people if because it makes me anyway.
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+[17:34] Anyway. So I'm trying who's this from anyway. Do we know who this is from? This question? Is this flavor.
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+[17:39] Also from Johnny? Oh, Blake. Alright. Blake Anderson writes in, I'm trying to make a chill to Zabayon, but the liquid separates out after an hour in the fridge. The recipe says to chill for four to six hours.
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+[17:49] I'm using four egg yolks, very fresh and very local. One quarter cup of sugar, one half to one cup of red wine. I don't usually use red wine, but anyway, Marcella. Oh, really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[18:00] Blake, we're gonna come back to this. Caller, you're on the air. Hello? Were you lying to me, Nastasha? Oh, hey, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[18:11] Jack said. We lost him, sorry. You lost him? Yeah. Weird.
+
+[18:15] Nice, Jack. Thanks, man. Thanks, bro. Okay. Uh so we're going back to Blake's uh Zabayon.
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+[18:20] Uh quarter cup sugar, half cup to one cup, red wine. He dropped the liquid ratio. That didn't fix the problem. Uh Blake, you think that's a man or a woman? So one man.
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+[18:29] Uh dropping a liquid ratio did not fix the problem. I'm beating a mixture to a foam on a double boiler and mixing until the mixture cools to below 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Would adding less thin help to better emulsify. Any advice to make a stable mixture? All right, Blake, I think I know your problem, and you're not gonna believe it.
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+[18:43] You ready for this? You're not gonna believe it. First of all, Zabayon, one of my favorite things. I love Zabayon. You like that stuff, Nastasha?
+
+[18:48] Yeah. Like over strawberries. It used to be I used to make this all the time. I would I, you know, I used to have like a bottle of marsala uh just lying around the house just for this occasion. When it was strawberry season, I'd cut up the strawberries, make a sabayon, pour that some bitch right over the strawberries and eat it.
+
+[19:02] That was dessert. It's a good dessert, yeah? Yes. Okay. Now, here's what you were doing wrong.
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+[19:06] I almost guarantee it, because I used to do this too. You're undercooking your Zabayon. So what you're doing is you're you're super worried. And by the way, here's the procedure, folks. You put your egg yolks, your liquid, your sugar in a bowl, you whisk the uh heck out of them, and you put it over a heat source, and you keep whipping until it becomes foamy and thickens, right?
+
+[19:25] Then it becomes a creamy sauce. Now, everyone when they're making a Zabayon petrified that they're gonna overcook the uh egg yolks and uh thereby make it taste grainy and like scrambled eggs. Now, you're probably, if you're being careful and you keep beating it, is not gonna happen. Here's the issue. A Zabayon is gonna start getting foamy and look like it's built up a texture just from the fact that you're so afraid that you're gonna curdle it that you're beating the crap out of it with a whisk.
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+[19:51] So you're forming a nice foamy mixture with your Zaboyon, but you're not cooking it enough. Then when you pull it off and put it in the fridge to cool down, over time that foam separates and you get a layer of liquid sitting at the bottom because it doesn't kind of keep self-emulsified the way that let's say a creme anglaise does when it's oh uh undercooked, right? Which is, you know, similar, but instead of using a wine, you're using uh milk, right? And usually not as high of an egg yolk uh ratio. So what you're doing here is you're making something that looks all foamy but it it's not cooked yet, and it's gonna separate.
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+[20:21] I've done this many times. I guarantee that's your problem. Do not be afraid. Make sure that your mix isn't just foamed up, but that the actual liquid is thick in your in your Zabayon, and I guarantee you this is gonna solve your problem, you'll be able to chill it down just fine. Uh here's another thing.
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+[20:39] Everyone gets all I saw some uh I was looking up on the internets and I saw some recommendations on uh cooking it, and they're like, don't let it get too hot, don't let it get too hot. And all of the recommendations that I saw on the internet about the temperature at which uh the egg yolks are gonna curdle in the Zabayon are all off and they're all low. Uh invariably, I don't know what the heck these guys are reading their temperatures with or how much of a carryover they're getting, but the information out there is just not right. Um, I, in fact, don't even make the thing. People are like, Don't let the don't let your pan touch the liquid in the double boiler, or everything's gonna go to hell in a handbasket.
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+[21:14] Uh also not true. It's a matter of just being careful. Now, the larger amount you're making, the more careful you have to be about regulating your heat source because you can't keep the thing moving as quickly with your hands. But for small normal quantities, a couple of egg yolks, uh, you know, you can do it. I do it in a in a bowl with a smooth bottom.
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+[21:32] You don't want something with a lot of edges on the bottom because you're not gonna be able to get your whisk into it effectively, and you might get some local curdling there. But I make the thing directly over a flame. I have like a bowl with like a loop in it that I hold the loop with a heat-proof thing, and I make it directly over a flame. I don't even use uh anything. If you're worried about cool cooling down, getting carryover, have a uh like a like a pan of hot of uh cold water next to it to stick it in and beat it a couple of times.
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+[21:56] As soon as it starts cooling down, uh it's not gonna curdle on you. You're gonna be fine. So I think your problem is just fear of curdling. Get over your fear of curdling and your Zabillon is gonna be delicious. That's my recommendation.
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+[22:07] If you uh are having like real issues, it's something that I don't understand. It is possible to stabilize it so much. I wouldn't use less than I'd use starch, but uh I wouldn't do it because it's gonna muddy the flavor. Zabillon is so pure and delicious and light and ethereal that uh it just shouldn't be messed with under any circumstances. What are your thoughts on this?
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+[22:25] It's good. Yeah, all right. Johnny Kirk writes in says, I have a question about preserving lemons through sous vide. In my experience, preservation through the uh of lemons, through the use of a chamber machine takes an equal amount of time as the traditional method of preservation. My uh true.
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+[22:41] My process uh using a multivax C200, which is just like multi-vax C200 for those of you that don't know what the hell that is, it's a standard medium-sized restaurant vacuum machine. Like standard. Yeah, standard. Okay, uh, is as follows. Place the container with the lemons, the salt, and the lemon juice in the vacuum machine, uh, and let it get down to about twenty millibar, which is fair to midland vacuum.
+
+[23:04] The guy's back on the phone. He's back on the phone. All right, caller. It's a new colour. New color?
+
+[23:08] We lost the old guy. I feel so bad now. Anyway. Caller, you are on the air. Hey guys.
+
+[23:13] Howdy. Uh question about methell solutions. Okay. Using them. I've I've been playing with them lately and uh have had what I would call absolutely no luck.
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+[23:28] Really, really stinky, nasty, chemically, even like fishy smells coming off of this stuff. Like, you know, one percent solutions. I tried to try to make some meringues. You know, you were talking about meringues a couple of weeks ago. Oh, hey, that's cool.
+
+[23:44] I'll do I'll try that. I tried to make uh sort of like a tuy, you know, sort of crispy. I wanted to make a uh tamarind crispy piece. And man, that stuff was so foul. I must be doing something horribly wrong.
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+[24:00] Okay. Help me. Let's start. Which methyl cell do you have? So I have tried uh both the F fifty and the E four M.
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+[24:09] Okay. I tried to Yep. E f the E series I I don't like the E series. I'm just gonna be honest. They don't I don't even know that they make the E series anymore.
+
+[24:20] Uh, because their factory blowed uh blew up uh number of years ago. Maybe they maybe they started making again. But the E series is typically used for making like the twils and the chips. Is that what you were doing? 'Cause they're film formers.
+
+[24:33] That's what I was trying to do. Yeah, I don't like them. Uh much. I know a lot of people that like them. Uh I went to a restaurant which shall remain nameless.
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+[24:41] It was Moto, and like half the dishes had on it uh like a tweel formed with uh methylcel, one of the E series. It's it's E4 what? E4C, E4M? E4M. Okay.
+
+[24:54] So that's also, I mean, the good news about E4M uh is that 4M, the the number, right, is uh 4, and then the M stands for thousand. So the viscosity of that one is like 4,000 times greater than uh what a one would be. So F50 versus F4M, you're looking at a factor of uh 240, like like 80, like 80 times thicker at a given uh thing. Okay. So you should be able to use a relatively minuscule amount of it to provide a thickening power, but the problem is that the E series is good at film forming, but it's not very good at gelling, and it's not very good at uh I mean I don't think it's a very good whipper.
+
+[25:41] Um it's mainly used for that film forming thing, but you need to have a certain amount of that in there to make the film forming thing. Anytime the methell uh percentage gets to be one, you're gonna start tasting the awful uh methyl cell stuff unless you're using some very, very, very strong flavors. So when when I'm using F50, F50 is the one that makes really good foams, it then makes a meringue. When you're using F50, if you have an extremely extremely strong flavor, like passion fruit, for instance, passion fruit or you know what some passion fruit variant um will obscure say that sounds nasty, right? Will obscure the methyl cell flavor up to about a percent or a little over.
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+[26:25] Uh that said, in general, if you ki in a whipped product in a m in a meringue I don't taste the methell uh when it's down at like zero point eight percent so eight grams per kilo uh but you start adding like a gr like one point two grams per kilo over a percent like that and you're definitely gonna get uh an off flavor from the methell that's like and so and that's one of the the problems with it. Now how much were you using with the F50 and what flavor were you using? That was the tamarind? Yep. And I I had started at just under a percent.
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+[27:04] I was going for 0.6 and then I I was paging through modernist cuisine and those guys use it often at you know one point two ish or so I upped it uh and I I tried that in tamarind I tried that in uh in a roasted cauliflower I was trying to put those two together and it just it just kept coming through. I also had it problems with it seeming like it was separating. Right. Which I assume is a dispersion problem. Yeah a lot of met a lot of methel uh ha if you have do you have a vita prep no I don't yeah so methylcel is kind of a pain to uh to disperse so one of the um unless you have like a you know very good uh blender so one way to to nicely disperse disperse methyl is to mix it with uh a quantity of corn syrup or sugar and then blend it in to keep the particles separated.
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+[28:00] Another way is to go uh hot cold, so put the methyl cell into something very hot because it won't dissolve in stuff that's very hot. And then like like blend it and then add like cold or chilled stuff to drop the temperature and then it'll hydrate. And then uh the last resort you'll notice in a lot of methyl cell recipes if you look at them, they'll basically tell you to make the mixture and then let it sit overnight. And uh a lot of hydration problems with methell can be um can be fixed by by letting it sit overnight. Now the difference in taste of methyl between I I I look I don't know whether this is true or not.
+
+[28:36] I know the thickening power of uh of these products is not linear. In other words adding doubling the amount doesn't double the thickness it's uh it's a lot more than that. And I have a feeling and I don't know why this would be the case but it's my feeling that taste wise with methyl it's the same thing. So 0.2 is going to taste like a lot more than point six but my feeling is point six isn't going to be enough to get a nice stable meringue foam out of it, right? So I would say try like eight point nine but not above.
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+[29:04] The other thing I'm gonna say is that is that it's a whipping agent in that it actually helps to stabilize uh um uh air you know foams but you're also gonna want uh some solids in there that uh provide a structure so in when we use fruit puree's it's basically pectin mixtures that are providing that structure to you so if you don't a lot of people add bulking agents like maltodextrin to their uh stuff to get them to whip up to a nice uh to have like to have structure left when uh you've dehydrated if that makes sense because there's not enough methyl cell there to provide the structure. So you what you're looking at is the methyl cell is basically a a whipping aid and also it's holding the structure until it can dehydrate. But you don't want methyl cell being the primary physical structure of the meringues that you're making, or I think you're gonna end up with those kind of a taste problems. Got it. Should that make sense?
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+[30:02] Several things to try, yep. Alrighty, and uh let us know let us know what happens. I just don't like those E those E15 or E4M films, uh films that much. It's I mean like some people do like them, so don't write in and say that I'm a jerk for saying it's just it's not my preference. I'm allowed, right?
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+[30:17] Absolutely. All right. Thanks for calling. What? I uh did the uh combu wrapped duck this weekend we talked about last week.
+
+[30:26] Was it delicious? Awesome. Good awesome, nice. Yep. I got that trick from I got that trick from Nils and it's delicious.
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+[30:33] Yeah, I'm gonna wrap everything. I'm gonna wrap you know brownies in combo from now on. I know it's good stuff. Yeah, great. All right.
+
+[30:41] All right, thank you. Okay. Is there another collar, Jack? Yes. Oh caller, you're on the air.
+
+[30:48] Hi. Just wanted to say thank you. You guys have been hitting it for 60 shows. Appreciate it. Oh, hey, thanks.
+
+[30:53] Thanks for calling in. Uh in the combu wrapped uh Ahhi tuna that I went and caught was amazing. Yeah. Perfect. How how long how long was it wrapped?
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+[31:03] Uh I wrapped it with some combu that was caught for just down the ocean from it. So yeah, it was pretty pretty dang amazing. Appreciate it. How long do you leave it? Overnight?
+
+[31:12] What's that? Do you left it over? Nice. Beautiful. And then we we just did sashimi with it.
+
+[31:19] But um my main question is um making hot sauce, and right now I'm using my my Vitamix blender, but I need to obviously move that forward a little bit. What what's the next thing I'm gonna look for to make like a like a sriracha style hot sauce? Huh. I don't have equipment. Oh, uh I don't have any recipes off the top of my head.
+
+[31:41] Well, what kind of problems are you have? I want equipment. I want to know what what homogenizer, etc. Oh me, you want it even finer than you can get it in a Vita prep? It's just I need to make more.
+
+[31:51] Oh, size. Well, they make like how much do you need to make? Like what are we talking about here? I'd like to do five gallons at a time. Wow.
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+[32:01] Five gallons at a time. Yes. I'm gonna go in business here. Yeah, there's okay, let me think. They're I mean, they make obviously large uh style uh things, but they're not gonna get it as fine as a uh a Vita prep does.
+
+[32:17] But they're I was looking at large rotor staters, but those are expensive. Oh, they're very expensive. You might want to look, there's there's there's basically something in between a blender and a food processor that I haven't seen much in um in America, but in Europe they have them a lot. I and I forget who makes who makes them, but they're basically like two uh food processor blades stacked up but in like a five-gallon drum, and they sit on the floor and they're priced for restaurants. Uh I don't know how fine they can go, but I had some chefs from Australia and Europe tell me that they're like the greatest thing since uh since sliced bread.
+
+[32:55] And what's cool is they tilt. So you put your s you you top load your stuff, hit go, and then um and then it it tilts it out. Now I'm not exactly sure um what level of you know particle breakdown because the the the thing you're how many microns we can get you. Right. Um yeah, because the I mean rotor staters are they're they're expensive and they're not good at breaking down large, large things because they have to fit into the gaps.
+
+[33:25] So you're gonna need to do some initial breakdown anyway. You know and if you want to go really badass, they have basically inline uh like I think they have inline inline rotor stator jobs where basically you you you pre-pulp your stuff and then you stick it through the rotor stator and just goes through and gets completely annihilated. But that's not that big to begin with, so uh I just need to break down those hard seeds. Yeah, and the pepper. Yeah, and I'm like uh you want to actually physically disintegrate seeds.
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+[33:56] I don't think that this thing is gonna I don't think that this that the the Robo Roboku like thing is gonna work on it. Um the other good thing is if you're actually gonna get a big piece of equipment, unless you're just gonna do a straight e b eBay buy, what you do is is you call them and you say, here's what I'm looking to do, who's got one? And then you go and you look at it and you see what you know what kind of it can do. Uh and you and once you make the next leap into like more expensive equipment, they're usually okay with that because they know that they're gonna get uh a customer uh out of you. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[34:32] Yeah, like I'd like to spend you know a thousand, maybe fifteen hundred bucks to get everything going, but oh yeah, no, it's gonna be more than that for that. Like another, you know, if you're making five gallons at a time, so I'm trying to think of like custom solutions. Even a gallon I might be able to live with, but right now the vita prep's just it's it's a lot of work. Well, they make a much bigger vita prep. Um they make one that's I think three times the capacity that I think does like like uh four liters or something like that.
+
+[34:59] And that one's in that range of like you know, fifteen hundred bucks or something like that. Um that's a big vital prep. Yeah, it's much bigger. I haven't I haven't used it, but one more qu quick question on the hot sauce thing is uh how do you measure garlicness? I mean we have scobile units for heat.
+
+[35:14] But uh how do we measure garlicness? Well, it's it's an interesting and a difficult question because garlic is not stable, like garlic chemistry is very, very uh Yeah, the elephant breaks down and all the other. And so I don't know how at what point it's considered stable, like at what like how many, you know, weeks or months it's considered stable, but you're also measuring the pungency is measured in in different ways. Uh it's been uh and I can't even keep them in my head, like the minute I read it, it goes out. But uh Eric Eric Block, I think, his book on garlic and other alliums.
+
+[35:55] Um I mean, it's just really a lot of complicated stuff to wade through. And so it's uh, you know, great thing about capsation is is that it is um you know, it's fairly stable, and so it's easy to characterize and Scoville's fairly easy for people to measure. Similarly with hops, you know, IBUs, international bitterness units are fairly easy to kind of get a hold on what's going on, and they make a lot of sense. Garlic, on the other hand, I don't know what the what the pungency rating of uh garlic is. It's probably measured as like a free percentage of like Allen and or whatever it is.
+
+[36:28] You know what I mean? Um but I don't I've never heard of anyone rating it that way in terms of uh trying to s to make a standard. Uh which is a pain because different kinds of garlic have different levels of like radically different levels of pungency, and so it's gonna be difficult to control that way. Right, right, right. You know, I mean?
+
+[36:48] Like Well, I appreciate I'll go ahead. Yeah, I have a bunch of hardneck garlic I just got from uh the farm that uh Thanksgiving farm that Cesare Casella works in, and it's it's baby twice as it's twice as you know powerful in terms of that awesome garlic flavor as like the normal crap I get out of the supermarket. But yeah, we picked up some from the Berkeley seed bank. It's uh I think it was uh Moroccan garlic or something weird like that. But it's holy crap, is this powerful.
+
+[37:13] I know it. And you know, it's too powerful to my wife who's not used to it. I love it. But um it's interesting. If uh let next time I speak to McGee, which is actually gonna be in two days, because I'm going up to the Harvard to give another uh Oh, he's gonna be there?
+
+[37:26] Yeah, Mickey's gonna be there. Yeah. I'll ask him about it because that's the kind of thing he's interested in too. And if I ask him about it, I'll I'll try to remember talking about on the show next time. Well, ask him about popping sorghum too.
+
+[37:37] Popping sorghum. Why it was were we talking? Oh, was I talking about it out here? Because I just had a conversation about this with somebody. Terrible inconsistency.
+
+[37:45] I love the stuff, but I can't get it consistent. I think it's just my distributors are different ages of sorghum. Right, different and different probably moisture contents. You know, you can equilibrate you can equilibrate grain, it takes a while, but you can equilibrate grain to a specific moisture content. I don't have the protocols in in the top of my head, but it's probably uh moisture contents your problem.
+
+[38:06] Ah, so I can I remoisturize it? Yeah, it just takes a while. It just takes a while. Like you carry it in the bag or something. Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[38:14] Like you look you look up on Google, like uh Google procedures for uh because it's called temper they temper grains out to particular uh moisture levels for industrial processes because you know, for instance, for puffing or extruding, if it's not exactly the same every time, like everything goes to hell. Right, right, right. Yeah, I noticed that one. Well, I can talk to you all day, but I really appreciate the answers. Thank you.
+
+[38:36] Call it call in if you have any more results. I will do. All right. Now, where was I? Preserved lemons?
+
+[38:42] Yep. All right. So preserved lemons, we're talking about Johnny Kirch preserved lemons, and basically he puts them in the uh vacuum machine, uh salt, lemon juice, lemons, uh, gets it down to about 20 millibar. I'm assuming he puts cuts into the lemons, because usually people put cuts into the lemons. Anywho, he does this about three times, uh, and then he uh bags them and seals them.
+
+[39:01] Oh, so he just puts them with juice and salt in the container, vax them without a bag, and then and then uh vax them down in a bag. Uh it seems to make sense. Decrease the oxygen level might speed the process of preservation. Also, if you could help me understand uh the point, some people freeze their lemons when they're preserving. What's the point of that?
+
+[39:17] I would appreciate it. Okay. So here's what's going on. Uh when you vac the the the reason you want to vacuum bag uh preserve things, whether it be kimchi, sauerkraut, preserved lemon, is that uh they like to be in oxygen free environments. Not that it speeds it, is that you can get all flavors if there is uh oxygen and the bacteria that are growing there want to be anaerobic anyway.
+
+[39:36] So uh vacuum bagging is a good way to not have to worry about weighting things down in jars and making sure they're covered with their own juices and things like that. So that like when you're making a pickles or or anything like that, there's always instructions to like load it down, cover it to make sure they're covered, and that's to exclude air. If you bag it in a vacuum machine, uh you get rid of that problem. Another great thing about a vacuum machine is uh the vacuum machine by doing kind of rapid infusion of any liquids that's there, can help get the salt and whatnot into the uh fleshy part of the fruit much faster, right? Uh and basically just kickstart those operations very quickly.
+
+[40:08] Now, the point of freezing a preserved lemon uh preparation, like uh Alex Talbot does, for instance, in his uh ideas and food cookbook, is uh you're breaking down that by repetitive freeze thawing, you're breaking down and tenderizing the the te uh texture of the uh of the product. It's gonna speed any sort of preservation if you are gonna do a longer keep to keep get have them ferment a little bit. Uh and it's also uh gonna change the flavor uh of the fruit a little bit. And we've done this with with our frozen and thawed lemons that we think I think they smell more like uh bergamot, like uh like Earl Grey, uh after they've been frozen and thawed. Um so that's what that's what that's all about.
+
+[40:47] But a traditional preserved lemon is a function of time because there are yeast and I believe it's uh like symbiotic yeast and like I think acetic acid bacteria. I think yeast makes alcohol, very salt tolerant, acid tolerant yeast makes small quantities of alcohol, which are then uh digested by bacteria, which I think make acetic acid. But uh this is coming off my memory. I didn't have time to research it this morning. I think that's what's going on.
+
+[41:11] And so um, you know, a preserved a traditional preserved lemon pickle is going to uh be a lot different from anything that you kind of shortchange or quick cut. Um should we take one more commercial break? No. We have to finish. Jack, do we have to finish or can we take one more commercial break?
+
+[41:27] Uh yeah, take another break. All right, we'll take another break. We'll come back, call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Many guys have come to you with a line that wasn't true, and new pass them by stem by though you're in the series.
+
+[42:09] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Uh, you like that? I come off that really mellow song with a screaming intro. Anyway. Uh we need to have an announcer.
+
+[42:17] I guess you want to be the announcer? No, I I want to have Phil Bravo. Well, we have a friend Phil Bravo, not good for much, but probably would be a good announcer. Right? I mean, everyone's good for something.
+
+[42:29] Anyway. Phil Bravo. Anyway. So Scott Hansma uh writes in and he says, uh, I'd like to make a uh transglutaminase that's uh meat glue, turduck in breast, and then cook it sous-vide or low temp, actually. I wouldn't do it sous-vide, I'd do it low temp.
+
+[42:43] Uh but the temperature for duck is very different than for chicken and turkey. Uh two ideas I have were to do the whole thing confit style, which would probably be pretty awesome, but I was hoping for a roast type texture. Or I thought about pre-cooking the chicken and turkey piece and then gluing it to the raw duck. But will the TG glue to the cooked meat? It will, not as strong, but it will.
+
+[43:02] Uh, or could I sous vide the whole thing to duck temperature with the duck in the center and then roast it to the other parts to a higher temp, but that's gonna be hard to get precisely right. Any other ideas? What do you recommend besides not doing it? Scott Hansbaum. Okay, well, uh, you're in luck because this is one of the recipes that uh I actually make quite a bit.
+
+[43:21] And the you uh hit one of the secrets there. The secret is to arrange the meats in the order that they want to cook. That's the secret. So uh what you do is you take turkey ski, this is what I do anyway. Take a turkey skin, I lay the uh lay the turkey skin out, then I I slice uh thin and pound out turkey breast, which I then uh meat glue in a layer on the skin.
+
+[43:44] Uh, then I put uh a layer of chicken breast and then a layer of uh sausage force meat, then a layer of duck, and then a squab in the center. Nils and I used to do this at like every Sous-Vide class, so we've done it dozens of times. Uh and then you roll the whole thing into one giant tube, uh, and then you put it into a water bath at 64 degrees Celsius, which is what the turkey wants to cook to with a thermometer in the center. And when the squab makes it up to 56 Celsius, you pull the whole thing out, and every piece of meat all the way through is cooked exactly the way you want it. The turkey's cooked to about 64, the chicken's cooked to 63.
+
+[44:23] Uh, the sausage meat goes between about 63 and about 58. Uh the duck goes between about 58 and 57, and the squab goes to 56, and everything's good. You then chill it down a little bit and you deep fry the outside of it to crisp up the skin, and you're good to go. Nastash, you've had that, right? It's very good.
+
+[44:41] It's good, right? That is the way to do it. The other way to do it is to take then the leg meats and do a total comfy of the leg meats, right? And since those are going to a high temperature anyway, that one you can just roll in a plastic tube, confie it at like 82 Celsius for uh or 85 Celsius for you know a couple of hours to get it cooked, pull it out, and I would serve them side by side, and that would be straight up delicious. We've never done that, but that would mean I'm telling you right now, that would be delicious.
+
+[45:08] Now, some tricks. I would I would make a miniature roll first of the squab and the duck and then place it in and then uh roll it in sausage and then roll the larger roll because the whole trick is centered on uh on getting the squab in the exact center, right? But that's the way you do it. You arrange it in concentric circles and uh it's uh delicious, good business. Um see what we have here.
+
+[45:34] Uh Joseph writes in, Dave, I'm thinking of cooking pork chops with apple juice concentrate, and was wondering if you have any experience with this combination. I mean, I've cooked uh hams in apple cider before, that was good. I'm assuming cooking a chop in apple juice concentrate is is going to be good as well. You're gonna want to be careful if you're doing a high temperature, if you use anything concentrated with a lot of sugar, you're gonna get a lot of scorching problems. If you're doing a low temp, you're gonna want to use it concentrated so it doesn't taste poached.
+
+[45:58] You're gonna get probably some flavor transfer, but I'm not sure how much. And then when you, if you're gonna do a post-sear as opposed to a braise, you're gonna get in trouble with again with scorching. So anytime you're dealing with high sugar glazes, uh, unless you like burnt sugar taste, which some people do, which is why they put barbecue sauce on their meats before they grill them, because they like a burnt sugar taste. It's just something to be aware of. But apple and pork, I mean, you can't get more classic than apple and pork, can you?
+
+[46:22] No. Can't be can't possibly get more classic than that. Okay, uh Dave, we get this from Jason. Dave, I cure meats at home rather successfully, he might add. Uh, he often cures uh pork, beef, goat, and lamb.
+
+[46:34] A hunter at work has offered uh me his next deer, which I promptly thought about curing into deer prosciutto, uh salami, brasala, etc. etc. I have one concern. I thought wild deer often have parasites. Do you know if freezing will kill these parasites?
+
+[46:47] If so, what temperature and for how long? The same question applies if I want a low temp cook some deer steaks. What's the minimum time temp for whatever parasites deer have? So any low temperature uh cooking that's gonna kill bacteria is gonna kill parasites. So you're not gonna worry about parasites in a cooked thing as long as you've cooked them properly.
+
+[47:06] I try to do some initial research, and you know, deer can carry tapeworms and other parasites, but they typically won't jump to humans. You get a lot of bacterial contamination through shooting and things like that if the guts uh done are through poor slaughtering. Uh and so and there have been outbreaks of bacteria-related problems due to uh beef jerky, uh venison jerky. So in something that's not gonna be cooked or salted enough or properly cured to kill all bacteria, you're gonna want to uh you're gonna want to do a cook step like when you're doing venison jerky. But for freezing, if there are uh sort of any sort of worms or parasites that are there, freezing should kill them.
+
+[47:45] Freezing does not kill bacteria, which is why freezing is not a good bacterial kill for doing uh dry cured meats, but freezing is a good uh kill for trichinosis and for tapeworm cysts. Now, I don't think there have been any cases of tapeworm cysts, uh tapeworms developing from deer to people. You got deer to dogs and you've gotten dogs to people, but I don't know that you've gotten deer to people, but maybe. Uh in which case I've seen recommendations of a hard freeze, very you know, low, like zero or lower Fahrenheit for like uh, you know, like well over a day. That I couldn't find them anymore because Clemson used to have this stuff online and they changed their site and I couldn't get it anymore.
+
+[48:24] Uh but uh take a look. I mean, um it's something you worry a little bit about, but I wouldn't worry too much about. Uh anyway, okay. Uh last question of the day, I've got two minutes. John Blue writes in hello, pecan prolines were a traditional dessert of Mexican settling in Texas way back in the day, because that's all apparently uh was necessary was pecans, water, and sugar, and apparently they had uh sugar, which is weird, but they had sugar in the hepicons.
+
+[48:46] Uh replicating this with uh pleasant results has not been successful. From what I've uncovered, refined sugar was commonly used. I've tried that and brown sugar, demerar, etc. I've tried short cook times and long times. They either end up too watery and won't harden, or too grainy from the sugar.
+
+[49:01] Any suggestions on how to keep the sugar dissolved while thickening, or how to harden the mixture without adding ingredients? Also, any plans to do a quest for French Fry Supremacy Part Three. Thanks, John Blue. Well, I'm gonna address the French fries first. Uh I'm gonna, you know, we're going to be opening 98% chance we're going to be opening a uh bar concept in an existing place soon.
+
+[49:20] And in it will be uh the R Supreme French Fry, uh, which isn't exactly what's in the blog because I've increased the size of the French fries since we last did it, and it requires a couple different steps. Uh but there will be an opportunity for anyone to come taste our French fries soon. It's true or false, Nash. True. Okay.
+
+[49:37] Uh I'm not I don't know if I'm gonna write about it anytime soon just because I'm so damn busy. Anyway, prolines are interesting. It's a question of what kind of a texture you want. Some people's pralines are uh hard, the sugar is hard, and some people's prolines, the sugar texture is very s is fairly soft, almost akin to a maple sugar. And the difference between them is how crystallized the sugar is.
+
+[49:57] So I'm just gonna go into general because I don't know exactly how you you want them, right? If you want hard sugar that breaks, like peanut brittle, you don't want uh basically any crystallization hardly at all. You want it to form into hard candy. And for that you want to minimize stirring and you're gonna want to add the nuts late or basically pour this stuff over top the nuts, right? And then you're gonna get a minimum amount of crystals uh forming.
+
+[50:20] You're gonna want to do very little stirring of your sugar before the uh before everything dissolves because you don't want big sugar crystals that then all of a sudden go back into the pot and form large crystals to uh to get seeds, uh seed crystals, right? If you want something more fudgy, you cook it all, you get it totally clean, and then you do stir it as it's cooling, and by stirring as it's cooling, you initiate the formation of lots of small crystals that give a fudgy texture. So, i it all depends. You're gonna have to write it and tell me exactly what kind of praline you want to hit, what kind of a texture you want to hit. But if it's getting too grainy, add the nuts much, much later in your process, even at the end.
+
+[50:57] And if you want it fudgy, follow more fudge-like procedures of stirring, letting it cool somewhat, and then stirring it to generate small crystals. And if you want it to be fairly clear, except for I don't know if you're adding any cream or milk-based stuff to it, then you're gonna want to uh do a minimal amount of stirring, make sure all of your crystals are dissolved, and then manipulate it the smallest amount uh you can before you uh pour it out and let it set. Uh, but let us know exactly what you're looking at, John, and we'll try to uh troubleshoot a little more. This has been cooking issues. Fishers fish.
+
+[51:40] Oh, you didn't Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[52:13] The following it's a public service announcement from Food Karma. To kick off the New York City Meat Week in style, Meet with a Twist will bring together the best chefs and mixologists for a cocktail food pairing party on November 7th, from 6 to 10 PM at City Winery. Meet with a twist features 10 cocktails paired with 10 chef selections, highlighting local, sustainably grown meats such as duck, lamb, chicken, pork, beef, bison, and ostrich. The party will launch a week's worth of events throughout the city that celebrate the slow food movement, bringing sustainable meats to our tables. Again, that's November 7th from 6 to 10 p.m.
+
+[52:44] at City Winery. Updates, tickets, and more information are available at MeatWeekNYC.com.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Bringing you pizza live from Robert's Indie Jesus. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner.
+
+[0:34] And welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues. I was on the air with that. That's awesome. Yeah, we got a little piece of that.
+
+[0:41] Alright, alright, so here's here's how it works, folks. My headphones weren't on, and usually when my headphones aren't on, no one can hear what I'm saying, so I can say whatever uh whatever I want. And there is a waiter here at Robert's. Who, I mean, doesn't wear the same clothing as Jesus, you know, uh, but basically looks like, you know, Indy Rock Indy Rock Jesus. Am I right about this?
+
+[1:04] Robert Plan Jesus. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. And welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:09] Okay. And and you can come down to Roberta's, which I highly recommend, and have a pizza served to you by Indie Jesus on any given Tuesday. Uh okay. So uh coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria uh on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Can we say that?
+
+[1:29] Is that accurate? Yeah, I had a little running with the M train and then jogged over here. Uh my fault. I should have just left earlier. But I was at home researching all of my listeners' questions.
+
+[1:39] What do you listeners? What do we call them? Listeners? Listeners. Anyway, joined as usual in the studio by uh with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:46] How you doing? Rough. Rough? We were out. Rough.
+
+[1:49] Well, cooking issues had a late night last night. Uh we were doing the eater awards, and uh we made uh milk soup, right? It's a Colombian soup, changua. I think I talked about it on the air. I I made it in Colombia, and they wanted something with eggs and pears, and so we did that.
+
+[2:05] So it was like, you know, milk and chicken stock and fish sauce and uh little lime, poached egg, and uh some stuff, like uh vacuum-infused pears with um with uh, you know, some uh what's that stuff called? What my brain is on is on hold today. You know, the Spanish pepper, pimenton uh oil and uh cilantro oil and cilantro and vacuum-infused onions, you know, all that good stuff. Oh, and corn nuts, by the way. I'm bringing corn nuts back.
+
+[2:32] By the way, that's my job for the rest of my life is to make corn nuts come back because corn nuts are some delicious product. Anywho, so um basically, if you're ever gonna do one of these events, uh, here's what you should do. Everyone else did this, right? They made up a little sign about what they were making. They, you know, with it.
+
+[2:49] I swear to Christ, I shouldn't say that in the air. Like next next to us, right, was Red Farm. The the dim sum guy there made a miniature village out of dough. Different colors of dough. Man did not paint any of those little figures.
+
+[3:04] I'm talking like like absurdly detailed miniature people holding pandas with like flowers out of dough, all on a bed of of like pink peppercorns and like with like these weird flowers that look like tree bonsai things. The lady next to us had you know, like eight million year old candle drippings like Vincent Price House of Wax kind of business, spray painted gold. We had nothing. Ninda, nothing. And we show up, and not only do we have nothing, we don't even write down what we're serving.
+
+[3:36] So the entire time we had to just sit there and give the whole long shebang spiel of what the hell we were doing. By the end, we were just dancing in our booth going, milk soup, milk soup, get your milk soup, milk soup. Right? Pretty much. Anywho.
+
+[3:51] So I highly recommend making a sign before you go out to one of these events. Also, uh been a busy week. We were we were up at the Harvard uh with uh Harold McGee uh and John, his son, who's a TA for that class, uh doing the uh what were we doing, drinks? Mm-hmm. How do you think that went?
+
+[4:06] I think it went well. Yeah, I think it went well. I think they enjoyed it up there, the drinks. Although I wasn't allowed to serve any oh, check this. All right, look.
+
+[4:14] The Harvard undergrads, now I know that like, you know, you know, universities, I remember back that long ago, universities, they get all, you know, they get their privates all bunched up about uh underage drinkers, right? You know, uh, and uh so we weren't allowed to serve any liquor, even to students who were over 21, which I was fine with. But check this, it's like some sort of weird, like 70s beer commercial. I'm not allowed to taste what I'm working on. It's absurd, right?
+
+[4:41] Absurd. Absurd. Anyway, uh so uh enough of uh what we've been except for I'll tell you one more thing that's interesting. Uh Nastasha just went to see Fishbone. This is not a cooking related.
+
+[4:52] Oh, by the way, you should call in your questions. Two 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Okay, so um uh Nastasha went to go see Fishbone, which was one of my my favorite bands growing up. Nastasha from Los Angeles never listened to Fishbone or the Chili Pepper.
+
+[5:11] She hates anything that's local, by the way. She's like an anti-local person. Like, if it was around when she was a kid, she hates it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, tacos, she hates them because she's from LA.
+
+[5:20] You know what I mean? Fishbone, she didn't listen to it. Why? Because she's from LA. Me, East Coast guy my whole life, grew up listening to kind of that West Coast uh ska funk punk kind of stuff.
+
+[5:31] Anyway, Fishbone Seminole Band. I'm happy to report to my listeners out there that Fishbone still rocks after all these years, right? Yeah. They were hardcore. Their horn playing was so tight back in the day that you could have put a anyway, whatever.
+
+[5:44] Um to the questions. All right. Hi, Dave and Nastasha. I've got a couple of sausage questions for you today. Some sausage recipes call for the addition of soy protein or milk powder to help with moisture retention during cooking.
+
+[5:58] I've got an excellent Bratwurst recipe. Bratz. Bratwurst. Bratwurst recipe right now that I always get good results and juicy results from. I'm wondering if I should try and tweak the recipe by adding some milk powder or soy protein.
+
+[6:10] Maybe it will be even better. You know, this is from Matthew, and he has a second part, but I don't think so. Um I don't think you need to uh no, no. What do you think? No.
+
+[6:19] I don't think you need to kind of enchepen it. I mean, look, you you if you're if your stuff is juicy now, right? Then I don't see the point of adding like a filler or extender. Milk pro milk protein, it's okay. Uh you know, if I don't know.
+
+[6:35] I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. Soy protein, I definitely wouldn't do. Taste it. Does it taste delicious?
+
+[6:40] Is it making your sausage more delicious, right? If your sausage is already juicy and you don't need any additional Oh my god, Indy Jesus is coming by the stuff coming by the station. If you don't need the additional binding power, uh don't use it. That's my feeling. What do you think, Nastasha?
+
+[6:56] He looks at his reflection. All right. For those of you, which is everyone who who uh doesn't know what we're talking about, like we basically, here in the radio station, we look through uh a window at whomever is eating in the kind of like faux outside enclosed, you know, backyard of uh of Roberta's pizzeria. So you know, on break, we will often make comments to ourselves about the guests and or the weight staff. True?
+
+[7:22] True? Okay. Uh okay, matt back to Matthew. When I cook my bratwurst, I usually gently poach them in beer, good call, before browning them on the grill. Also a good call.
+
+[7:30] An issue that comes up is they tend to swell and the meat ends up poking out of the ends of the casing. One suggestion I got was to let the sausages air dry a little after stuffing them. This would dry them out uh a little bit, and thus when they rehydrate during cooking, they will not swell as much. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. I don't know that um I don't know that uh that the issue with uh sausage bursting is uh a rehydration of the meat issue.
+
+[7:53] I think it's basically a swelling, um, probably swell swelling of the air pockets that are inside of your uh of your bratwurst. Now, if you make the texture denser by like vacuuming the meat before you put it in, you probably get less swelling. Um I think what what you're doing when you when you're letting it dry out a little bit, lose some of its weight, is you're just uh providing a little extra space in the casing for expansion, because it's still gonna expand the same amount if the same amount of air is in there. At least that's my feeling. I don't know.
+
+[8:22] This is just off the cuff. So uh, or you could stuff them a little less tight and they're not gonna burst. Also, I would recommend probably poaching at a lower, I don't know. When you say gently poach, um, I don't know what you mean by gently. I would, when I do brats uh or any kind of sausage, I think I've mentioned this on the air, uh, you want to get an immersion circulator, uh, and you can put your beer directly in the immersion circulator, or you could put a small amount of beer in a bag uh with uh the brats and circum at um uh 140 degrees uh Fahrenheit, which is 60 Celsius.
+
+[8:54] That's the magic one you should all remember. I don't care if you can't do Celsius and Fahrenheit, you should just remember 60, 140. Just remember that. Anyway, um the other magic one I always remember for some reason is 57135. Anyway, so I would circum at uh 140 uh 60 Celsius for like you know, 40 minutes, something even longer.
+
+[9:13] You can go. This is actually going to okay. So look, when you're making a sausage, the whole idea of grinding up the meat is to take uh tougher other things and flavorful things, uh make them you know join together into kind of a more homogenous mixture, but also to tenderize by grinding, right? Uh and you add a lot of fat to keep the sausage uh moist even after it's cooked, because you know, sausage if it didn't have a lot of fat would dry out. With a circulator, you can tenderize the actual individual particles of meat by cooking longer, and you don't need you should keep the fat in because the fat's delicious, but you're not gonna need the fat just from a simply a juice standpoint, from a juiciness standpoint.
+
+[9:49] So uh it's like a double win. So if you get a circulator, I would cook your brats with a circulator. You could do them in beer and then uh and then cook them off on your on your grill. What do you think? Good, good.
+
+[9:59] All right, anyway. Um Keith Solomon from how do you pronounce that? When winetka winetka, Illinois, uh writes in and he says, per our request to please write in some questions. Uh, I'm one of those who listens every week via podcast. I have a question about taste.
+
+[10:15] Well, thank you for listening. Uh, why uh why does so much fish always have that frozen taste? I know that you can get good frozen frozen fish. What is the secret? Um and also Thanksgiving is coming up.
+
+[10:28] Why is so much uh deli turkey so awful? It can't be that hard to make turkey taste like turkey. Well, here's the here's the deal with deli turkey. It's just bad. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:38] It's like they uh they they're forced to kind of overcook the turkey um, you know, per per the regulations that they do, and so to make up for that, they have to like hit it with a bunch of stuff to keep the moisture levels high enough after they overcook it. And it's just, you know, it's just not turkey. And then they slice it preposterous. It's just not, it's just not turkey. It's not turkey.
+
+[11:00] What do you guys think? Anyone in anyone here think that stuff's turkey? No. No. And you know where you should get your turkey this year, right?
+
+[11:06] You should get it from Heritage Foods. Actually, you know what? Heritage Foods turkeys are delicious. Do we still have those or are they sold out, Jack? No, we've still got some.
+
+[11:14] Yeah. Patrick just got back from Kansas City. Well, is that like the turkey capital? Yeah, it's turkey. Turkey Capital.
+
+[11:20] Turkey Capital. Yeah, the turkeys here at Heritage, and you know, not to pump our own brand or nothing, but the turkeys we get here are uh are are pretty damn good. I mean, I didn't pay for mine last year. I stole it from Patrick actually when he wasn't looking, but it was a delicious turkey. Oh, also, speaking of pumping, you know who came to the event yesterday?
+
+[11:36] Tim Musick from JB Prince, Chef Superstore came to um our event and gave us a sauce funnel to use at the event. Sauce funnel, by the way, a sauce gun, is basically a funnel with with a little stick that sits in the bottom of it. These things should cost like a dollar fifty cents, but they cost like $150 for some reason. And so everyone always resists purchasing one because they're just so damned expensive. And if you're working at a school, they tend to get lost.
+
+[12:02] Um, however, they are like the world's greatest thing. I wish my hands was cons were constructed out of them because you can just dump unbelievable like accurate, fast portions of anything liquid out of these suckers. So we did, you know, our 400 uh portions of soup, and I didn't spill a drop until someone asked me a question, and I leaned over on the funnel and it actually opened it onto the table. Did you see that? No, you didn't catch that?
+
+[12:25] Thank God. Because she would not let me forget it. Anyway, sauce gun, uh, like the greatest thing in the whole in the whole damn world, and uh you can purchase it at the JB Prince. I'm gonna get back to my uh whose question is this. Keith's question after our first break.
+
+[12:41] This is a house that Jack built. Remember the south. This was the land that it works by hand. It was the dream of it, a bright man. There was a room that was filled with love.
+
+[12:57] It was a love that I was proud of. This is a life and a lot better plan. On the love of the same old love in the house that jackets, the house to justice, the member this house. Now the fence is that a hell down love. Yes, it was the gate that it walked out of.
+
+[13:20] This is the law that I decided. You know, I brought it on myself out. But it is funny that I didn't understand. And that was The House that Jack built by Aretha Franklin. An actual request from uh one of our listeners.
+
+[13:53] You can call in your request, we'll take them. We don't care. We like that song, and uh Jack especially likes that song because it's the house that he built. That's for Lee Calder. Yeah, you know, Aretha Franklin, afraid of flying in such a severe way that she has to drive a bus wherever she goes to go on tour.
+
+[14:07] Did you know this? Did you know this? Anyway. Today's episode number sixty-two, which by the way, sixty-two, you can now cook a low temperature uh pork belly and listen exclusively to uh cooking issues broadcast while you do it. I don't recommend doing that, but if you stayed up for 62, basically, you know, cooking issues straight, cooking your uh pork belly, low temp, you would have a nice pork belly.
+
+[14:35] Well, it's just that's how many hours of of BS that we've spewed over the air. It takes 62 hours to cook. Well, we don't have a full hour, but it's like rough. It depends. Look, it'll I'm just lying.
+
+[14:43] It depends on what temperature you do. But anyway, today's episode is sponsored again by our friends at Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cooked. You love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. I wish we could call these guys. You know, the school doesn't have any of their hydrocolloids left right now.
+
+[15:03] They have nothing, and I have to go to a Nate. We're doing look, right after this episode, we're going to do an event with uh Nathan Miravold at the FCI and Maxine Belay. And we could use some Modernist Pantry Love right now because they have no uh Kelco gel F, gel Anne left. They have no flavor-free guar. Anyway, it's pathetic.
+
+[15:19] Anyway, Modernist Pantry offers a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world.
+
+[15:42] Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry now carries ingredients for curing, including two types of prague powder and pure sodium nitrate. Fans of cooking issues a place in order of thirty-five dollars or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of Prague Powder number one. Simply use the promo code CI62. That's CI62 and placing your order online at modernist pantry.com.
+
+[15:59] Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. So when I by the way it's uh collar. Oh, this color? All right, when I when we're done with color, I gotta talk about prague powder. Collar, you're on the air.
+
+[16:15] Oh, great. Well, thanks for being late, I was too. Nice. All right. So uh yeah, lift all your shoes.
+
+[16:24] Got the number memorized even. Beautiful. Nice. So what do you what do you got for me? Oh, yeah.
+
+[16:32] I uh yeah, filled it in a jar, vaced it with uh a few tablespoons of water. Works great now. Except for a few days. A few days? Just took um nice.
+
+[16:41] So it's basically so the thing was like if they were too dry, couple like a couple tablespoons of water for like what size? Like a liter mason jar or something like that? Yeah, yeah. And then just let it equilibrate for a couple of days at regular ambient temperature. Is it whose phone?
+
+[16:54] That's your phone. It's beautiful. And and and so now now you pop entirely evenly all the way across? I still have a lot of widows. By the way, it worked really wonderfully.
+
+[17:06] Nice uh nice use of the actual technical term for unpopped kernels. Did you know uh many people do not know that an unpopped popcorn kernel, and now I guess also uh by analogy a sorghum uh kernel are called widows, which is an interesting fact. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that one before, I think. Oh, really?
+
+[17:21] Oh, I don't know. Who knows? I can't remember what to say. So uh bringing back corn nuts. We went to a Peruvian restaurant in uh Sonoma.
+
+[17:30] Right. And they uh they deep fried Peruvian giant corn. Yeah. It was the size of a corn nut, but way lighter. Much bigger than a corn nut.
+
+[17:38] How to trust some of those? Well, the Peru yeah, Peruvians have like several different kind of uh fried uh corn. Like some of them have like a weird papery husk, which I actually kinda like, and some of them are in weird shapes and they're bigger, but like the Peruvians have forgotten more about corn than we'll ever know in terms of uh pop like like crunchy corn snacks. Do you know what I mean? Uh Peru, like you know, Peru is one of those places where uh, you know, I we I need to go.
+
+[18:04] Everyone when you s when you you know you go to South America, they're like, Yeah, you need to go to Peru. You need to go to Peru. That's where it's happened in Peru. But I've never been. So I'm looking uh looking forward someday.
+
+[18:13] The one thing that in Peruvian, I don't know whether I've mentioned it here that's crazy, is they have these uh it's not corn, they have these crazy freeze air freeze dried potatoes that they make up in the mountains that taste like uh mm unwashed goat fur. Is that accurate discussion? Unwashed goat fur. So I think I actually asked this on the air once. I'm looking for anyone out there who has a knowledge of how to actually make these uh f these like uh naturally freeze dried potatoes from Peru taste good, and I haven't had anyone tell me how to do it yet.
+
+[18:46] Do you remember what they're called? Um like chunta chunta something, chunta uh j ja I'm sure Jack will look it up. Anyway, but yeah. So my my main question, the reason I called, I have a boatload of nori. It's raw Nori.
+
+[19:05] What do I do with it? I want to make uh I my I was thought of making like a Nori cracker or something like this, but the stuff tastes uh it's got the texture of a wallet. Yeah, well it it's me, but it's already in sheets, you mean. It it's rolled into sheets. It's not no, no, no, it's raw and oar.
+
+[19:20] Like just taken out of the ocean and dried. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you could I'd like to leave it raw if I could. Yeah.
+
+[19:28] Make some sort of snack food or something out of it. Well, you mean you could rehydrate it and then get it thinner, and then when it dries out, it will be less uh leather wallity. You probably just have too thick of a layer of it. You know what I mean? Well, it's one whatever, I guess a leaf of frown sick.
+
+[19:47] I uh rehydrated it and and uh put it in the dehydrator for a few couple a few times, just cycled it to try to make it weaker, and it's didn't really help a lot. It's still gonna try freezing it next. Still yeah. Yeah, freezing might break it down. I don't know.
+
+[20:01] I don't have any experience with it. Another thing, I mean, obviously you could um you could shop chop it and then and then uh put it into a mat and then dehydrate it and it'll it'll stick together. You know what I mean? Like I'm I'm pretty sure that's how they make the thin the thin sheets, right? The lava sheets is they get a bunch of it and then they they spread it out thin.
+
+[20:19] Hmm. I haven't I don't have any experience with this. I'm gonna have I'm gonna have to put my thinking cap on on this one. Yeah, I thought I'd try to maybe fermenting uh what else could I do? I was gonna grind it into flour, possibly and make crackers.
+
+[20:32] Yeah. Like a fleck crack or something like that. But uh any ideas you have would be. I'll tell you what I'll do sometime during this week. I'm gonna try to remember to look up some seaweed processing technology and I'll try to talk about it on the next week's show.
+
+[20:45] Wonderful. I appreciate it. Thank you. Alrighty, I'll talk to you soon. Alright, I have another caller, apparently.
+
+[20:49] Caller, you are on the air. Uh hey Dave and Nastasha, it's Brian. How are you doing? Doing well, doing well. What's up?
+
+[20:58] Um, so I saw that on the modernist cuisine blog that they posted uh EIY style, what they call uh vacuum concentrating system. And basically what it is is um a vacuum pump. Um the other two with a vacuum pump or what they call an aspirating nozzle that hooks up to uh a vacuum to a flask um that has uh one of those magnetic stirring bars in it, and basically it allows you to um do vacuum kind of reductions or concentrations of of of liquid. So I guess it's not a rotofap, but it's a kind of DIY has. And I'm wondering what you thought uh if you had a look at at that post and what you thought of um and what you thought of it.
+
+[21:46] Is there is there anything I can do to improve what they they have here? Will it work? Um what are your costs? All right, so here's the here's the here's the dealy. Um it works.
+
+[21:57] It's not it doesn't do um distillation in the sense that you it's very difficult to save the distillate because you don't have a cold trap. So the way an aspirator works is you you have a jet of liquid water typically that uh uh goes down and the actual speed of the jet going down sucks the air out, carries the air with it and and goes down. Much like uh you would you know, if you spray air, you can suck paint up into that and then spray it out, right? So it's that that that that's what's going on with an aspirator. Now the in chem labs aspirators are used as a very cheap uh vacuum source, and classically what what you would do is you would screw the aspirator into uh water faucet, you turn it on, and you just dump water down into the sink to produce your vacuum.
+
+[22:42] Okay. Now they people don't like to do that anymore because it wastes ginormous amounts of water, and it's considered, you know, not uh necessarily green to to do that anymore. So people have built aspirators with uh circulating pumps that they can circulate and they can keep the aspirators going without wasting a lot of water. Now, the downsides of uh of an aspirator as a pump is that they're not very uh quick pumps. It takes a long time to pump down to a vacuum.
+
+[23:07] Second thing is an aspirator pump is limited in the number of uh in the the depth of vacuum it can pull by uh the vapor pressure of water at the temperature of the water. So you like if you're using an aspirator, the trick is to get as cold a water as you can, for instance, ice water works great, uh, and then recirculate it to uh achieve a vacuum. Now, if you don't have a cold trap, you're not gonna, like I say, be able to recapture. So it's basically for reduction. And uh in order to get a good reduction and to stop a lot of bumping, you need to do uh a lot of stirring and agitation of your liquid, which is why they use a magnetic uh stir plate, hot plate, right?
+
+[23:40] Um so yeah, it totally works for that, and you know, the the the temperature of your liquid is going to be determined by uh not by the temperature of the hot plate, but by the uh ultimate pressure that your vacuum is able to uh maintain, right? And so you can kind of you can measure that if you want to. So this works, and and it's very important that you use an aspirator pump for this uh technology because it's one of the only types of vacuum pump that uh that can get contaminated by vapor, ethanol vapor or water vapor, without crapping out on you, right? And so that's why they use that kind of a pump for that, um, because uh they're actually not the cheapest kind of pump. There's a much cheaper vacuum pump you can get that does a much better vacuum, but it can't handle the contaminant, it can't handle the contaminants the way that uh way an aspirator pump can.
+
+[24:27] Uh and by contaminants, I mean all the stuff that I like to save in a rotovap. So it definitely, if you look, be an eBay ninja, get yourself a hot plate, they're not that expensive. Get an Erlenmeyer flask with a takeoff on it, also not that expensive. Um, you know, a cap and the aspirator, you can uh you can either buy them, they're not cheap because they and uh they don't come up that often uh with the circulator pump in it already. I mean you can get it, um, but um you can buy uh the actual individual aspirator units and hook up a pump yourself, and I recommend going to um any uh meth head uh like uh methamphetamine production uh website by you know by like these tweak tweet junkies.
+
+[25:07] And uh because they need a vacuum source to do some of their distillation work, and so you know they have uh kindly put plans out there where you can go basically to the Home Depot and build uh an aspirator pump for fairly fairly cheap, you know. Because remember, they need to be able to do this stuff without getting caught, you know, in like trailers and whatnot. So uh, you know, they they have that that pretty locked down. And what are their websites? Oh, I hesitate to actually mention the name of it, but you know, Google like you know, DIY meth lab uh or DIY aspirator.
+
+[25:39] Am I getting in trouble? I'm getting in trouble. I'm I'm tell I'm being told that I'm getting in trouble anyway. Nastasha's shaking her head and making the vegan face. But that is in fact where uh where I learned how to build my own aspirator pump back in the day.
+
+[25:52] And I'm assuming that the feds haven't figured out how to go on and kill all those websites yet, um, even though it has been like six years. But anyway, uh good luck experimenting with that and uh call back and tell us how it works. Okay, I'll uh I'll Google and see if I can get some from the meth head. Alrighty, thanks a lot. Okay, now uh key song, back to Keith's question, which I which I never freaking answered.
+
+[26:18] Okay, so we've we've we've established that the deli turkey is awful because they start with low-quality turkey, overcook it, and pump it up with a bunch of crap to keep it moist, right? Okay, so the other part of uh Matt of uh Keith's question was uh why does so much fish always have a frozen taste? And I know you can get good frozen fish, but what's the secret? All right, there's a couple problems. Here's the thing with fish, and with anything really uh that you freeze.
+
+[26:40] Uh home freezers don't actually freeze everything uh solid. You're only freezing a portion of the wall of the water that's in uh a food, right? And so when you're freezing in a freezer, ice crystals are actually forming on the outside of the cells and in a sense, in essence, dehydrating uh the actual cells in the muscles. And what that means is is that all of the stuff in the cells, proteins, liquids, enzymes, um, uh myoglobin, anything like that, and fats and whatever, whatever's there, is getting more concentrated. And as it's getting more concentrated, even though the temperature is lowing, lowering, certain reactions can take place very quickly.
+
+[27:17] And one of those reactions is rancidity. So what happens is fish typically contains a lot of uh polyunsaturated um fatty acids. Those are the types of fatty acids that are very prone to going rancid. Fish also have a lot of things in them, you know, like blood and whatnot, uh, that are pro that that basically help to catalyze uh rancidity uh reactions in their own fat. So um that thing, that rancid taste is I'm assuming what you're talking about, happens in the freezer just like it would out in uh not I mean I mean it happens slower, obviously, but it still happens even though the thing's frozen, and it's all because fish isn't actually frozen uh like solid down to a hundred percent uh solidity.
+
+[28:03] Okay? Now, there's a couple ways to solve this. Don't store your fish too long in a freezer, that's one, right? Two is to vacuum bag fish before you freeze it because in the absence of oxygen, uh it's gonna be very difficult for the fat to oxidize and go rancid, right? So you want to get rid of air.
+
+[28:19] You want to not store it in the freezer too long, uh if you can't get rid of the air, uh, but you still getting rid of the air is is the main thing. Uh and the the same thing happens with bacon, by the way, bacon goes rancid in the freezer. Um the other unless it's vac packed. Um the other thing is is in the really high quality fish, the sushi stuff, it's frozen solid, is uh they freeze it way down, they superfreeze it to uh I I forget what they call it, they probably call it the eutectic point or something like that, even though I don't even think that has meaning. Anyway, um they they super freeze it down to the point where literally all of the water is solid and the chemical reactions cease to take place at a reasonable rate.
+
+[28:58] And so uh that happens down around minus 70 C. So if you go to like some high-end sushi joints, or if you go to uh Del Posto has one, a bunch of people have these super freezers, and they store their meats in the superfrezers, and there's basically zero temperature cycling, everything is solid, there's no recrystallizing and decrystallizing and recrystallizing, and so the quality stays perfect, right? That's a good answer, right? Okay. Um Jack, should we go to one more break or should I take another question?
+
+[29:27] Yeah, we should. All right, we'll go to one more commercial break. Call your questions too. For this break, we have a uh certain song dedicated to a certain somebody from a certain vegan-faced co-host. All right.
+
+[29:38] So here's that. If I were your woman, and you were my maid. You'd have no other woman. You'd be weak as a land. If you had the strength to walk out that door.
+
+[30:13] My love would overrue my sense. And I call you back for more. If I were you. If I were you. And you were my maid.
+
+[30:32] So who's this? Wait, who is that for? Gladys Knight in the pitch. Yeah, but who is that? I thought it was a reetha.
+
+[30:37] Who requested it for Nastasha? No. No, no, no. This is a dedication from a certain co-host to a certain somebody else. Oh, all right, nice.
+
+[30:47] That's for that's for an episode of Issues. Some secret love going on. You know what you gotta play then? If it's a secret, you gotta pull out the Kenny Rogers, the uh the one where like daytime friends and nighttime lovers hoping no one else discovers. Yeah, it's good stuff, right?
+
+[31:01] Anyway. Uh okay. We have two unrelated questions from uh uh Ryan, right? From Ryan Santos Santos. Uh one, what's the best way to clean my circulator?
+
+[31:10] Answer, it depends on what kind of circulator you have. Uh but uh in general, um the new plastic ones are a little more difficult to clean out the insides of the old stainless steel ones are easy to kind of work with. It you we use you can use a combination of like a CLR, which is like clear uh lime rust remover, you can use uh like a light, like a degreaser, and you can actually circulate these things with with the product. So you circulate it with that, you can get the the uh tabs that are used to clean out combi ovens. Uh basically anything that's gonna eat grease.
+
+[31:41] Uh I mean, obviously, basic solutions uh eat grease very well, but I'm not exactly sure whether or not uh you're you can put um a very very basic solution onto the uh onto the circulators. I have to check it. But basically you run it with detergent uh and a degreaser, like uh, you know, like uh commercial degreaser, and and then you rinse it in water and uh and run it again in hot water and they should clean up. But it is a problem uh that needs to be addressed. I told Philip Preston on the new plastic one, I think he should install little shoulder screws so that you can very easily pop the back off and really clean in and out where the pump is, but not yet.
+
+[32:18] Hasn't done it yet. I'm sure he's gonna do it because I think it's a good idea anyway. Two, I experienced a weird reaction at a recent dinner. I served uh local baby persimmons with a green tea called hojicha, hojicha, hojita, hoji to uh some reaction happened that caused an extreme uh tannin uh tannin reaction and made my mouth super dry and astringent, unlike anything I've experienced. Do you have any idea what's happening?
+
+[32:39] Was it a reaction in the skins in the tea? The reaction didn't happen with water, soda, beer, etc. Well, this is interesting. I mean, well, I mean obviously look, you have tea. T has uh tea has tannins in it, right?
+
+[32:52] And persimmons have tannins in them. And the way uh tannins work is uh they bind to um proteins in uh in your mouth, proline-rich proteins, uh, and uh it those proteins lubricate your mouth. So when the those proteins bind to the tannins, now your mouth feels dry because it's not lubricated anymore, and that's astringency. Okay. Now, uh in persimmons, persimmons naturally have a lot of uh tannins in them, and what what you do, you know, normally is you uh blet, you know, like uh a persimmon, you let it really, really ripen.
+
+[33:24] The ones that have a lot of tannins, you let them ripen for a long time. The uh pectin starts to the cells start to break down, the pectin and the tannins, which are separated normally, get together, they complex. Once the tannin gets hooked up to the pectin, it no longer has a astringency, and bang, stuff's not astringent anymore. You take apples that are very highly tannic, which are known as spitters because you can't eat them, uh, but they're used in in making cider and whatnot. If you dry them out, when they're drying, the tissue starts to break down, tannins complex with the uh with other parts of the apple, precipitate uh into something that doesn't cause uh astringency, and boom.
+
+[33:57] So you are in a weird situation where you took two things that weren't very astringent on their own, and somehow the tannins uh in them have a higher now affinity to the uh proteins in your mouth than they did before. And I don't know what would what would cause that, whether, you know, it's uh I d I don't know. It's very interesting. It's another thing that uh you know I should uh bring up with uh McGee. Too bad this didn't come in last week.
+
+[34:20] I could have asked him when I spoke to him. Uh and by the way, I don't know if we mentioned it. I did ask Harold McGee about a separate question we had last week on garlic and whether there's any units of garlicness that uh and he said no, but we also have some inform uh interesting information, I'm not gonna have time to get to it today, from our good friend at UC Davis, Ariel Johnson, who's gonna who sent us a paper to read on that, and also has some very interesting stuff to report on limes. It's a good reason to tune in next week because there's going to be a lot of interesting uh lime work coming out. Um anyway, so I don't know exactly what's going on, but uh somehow the two things mixed together um have you know synergistically uh increased the ability of those tannins to bind with the with uh your uh the proteins in your saliva.
+
+[35:01] Interesting. I just said saliva, which is a word Nastasha hates. Anyway, uh hello, Nastashian Dave. I was listening to your podcast last week, and now I remember that there was a question about uh the white powder on combu. I did a research project last summer in Denmark uh with uh South Denmark University and Lars Williams, who's at NOMA, to see whether we could quantify a mommy in the lab.
+
+[35:14] We worked a bit on Scandinavian seaweeds. And I recall the white powder on Kanbu is Manitol. I might have read it in a book. I don't remember a search online where where there's confirmation. Um Manitol, uh look, I I I that's I kind of remembered that too, but I still couldn't find quickly the information on that.
+
+[35:35] Manitol, interesting, is a sugar, uh, a sugar that is uh discovered uh in manna. Yeah, you know, manna, manitol from manna. So interesting what goes around comes around. Anyway, uh uh and uh Manitol from Kambu. Uh but it's a sugar alcohol.
+
+[35:52] Uh anyway, but manitive combo is pretty harmless, and some websites say there's a sweetness to the combu, and therefore it shouldn't be wiped off. Okay, aside from that, aside from the combu, I have a question about French fries. This is from Larissa, by the way. Uh I am now working on a research project to develop an optimal recipe for French fries at Fundacio Alicia in Spain, which is you know like a school that teams up with Harvard to do the cooking uh to cooking thing. Uh long story short, I was an undergrad teaching assistant for Harvard Science Cooking course in 2010, which is how I learned about Alicia.
+
+[36:18] So after graduating with a physics degree, I came to Alicia for six-month internship. Okay, so for the project, I've been consulting a lot of specific papers and your another blog post on what's going on. We make french fries. Most of my findings have been similar to yours, uh, plus some interesting things. For example, when we freeze raw potatoes before frying, the fries are extremely hard and get harder with time.
+
+[36:34] We had some fries that got really hard with time, they were kind of gross. Anyway, um uh tests ongoing. Anyway, I was wondering whether you have any new findings since the last fries uh post in 2010, especially on using different potato varieties. Here in Spain, the two common types we get are Kennebex, which are white, and agrias, which are yellow. Agri's yellow color being more pleasing to the majority of people, and the Kennebecs come out of the uh uh fryer extremely blonde uh and don't turn yellow.
+
+[36:56] Okay, Kennebex, Nastasha and I were hanging out with a potato lunatic at a show once, and I was just you weren't there for that one? Anyway, so I talked to the potato lunatic, someone's literally staring in at the radio station going, What is these people? What are they doing? You see that? Anyway, and she she didn't like what she she uh she saw.
+
+[37:14] She made the vegan face and walked away. Uh so the um uh Kennebex uh are good, very good potato, but apparently they don't do well on storage, and so for storage they're not gonna necessarily work very very well. I haven't done the research on uh varieties the way I want. I mean, typically, look for a French fry, you're looking for high solids, low moisture, uh, you know, starchy uh potato. And you know, the good old-fashioned uh russet burbank uh that we use is pretty good for that, or any kind of similar kind of high starch, high solid, low moisture potato.
+
+[37:47] Uh the interesting thing about uh potatoes is that also the optimum potato isn't just a variety, it is a variety and how it was stored because potato goes through uh potato goes through a lot of changes during storage. In fact, older potatoes that have been stored properly, not ones that are all shriveled and nasty, but an older potato that has been stored properly is actually a uh better uh frying potatoes. So there are people who don't like the new crop potatoes when they come out and will continue to use the ones that have been stored for a whole year uh under cold storage because or not cold storage, but under optimum storage because that that those are the ones that they like that they fry up nice. So, anyway, also on my fry, my fries, I'm gonna re I'm gonna not repost it, but like uh, you know, we're we're opening up a bar concept here soon, and there's gonna be french fries on the menu. I'm just letting you know there's gonna be french fries on the menu.
+
+[38:37] And it's not gonna be the exact recipe that we have on the blog because that recipe was written for three eighths inch French fries. I now favor a half inch French fry. And uh the trick to a French fry is always about getting the moisture level exactly right on the inside of the French fry. Uh if you go if you dehydrate them too much, you get hollow fry. Uh, and if you don't do it enough, you get a soggy fry.
+
+[38:58] And at the same time, I uh you know I don't want the outside to be hard and leathery. I want it to be crisp, but I want it to bite nicely and not be like a I don't want it to be like a rock. If I want to eat a rock, you uh just serve you a rock. You know what I mean? Anyway, so uh, and so basically in my post, I didn't recommend if you're gonna use uh pectin X SPL, which is the enzyme that we use to uh break down the the uh pectin on the hemicellulose on the surface of the French uh fries so that you get uh very good crust formation.
+
+[39:26] Mirvold uh et al. Maxime and and Chris recommend uh using ultrasonic bath for similar purpose. Uh when you do that, I recommend not uh not drying after you do your initial uh blanch step. I recommend not doing too much air drying uh because that leads us to a phenomenon known as hollow fry, where you've gotten rid of so much moisture that the potato on the inside just it doesn't have any structure anymore and it goes hollow. Uh when you switch to a half inch fry, you do need to bring some of that drying back just to get to moisture level right.
+
+[39:58] So, like with anything else, it's just a matter of paying attention to your ingredients and figuring out what's going on. Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Uh Matthew writes in uh I've heard Dave say a couple of times not to salt things too far ahead of time or before a cooking uh long low cooking process. This will eliminate some juiciness. In my head, I remember reading something from McGee to the contrary that the general wisdom of not wanting to salt meat too far ahead as it would cause it to leak juice is actually bunk.
+
+[40:23] What's the deal? I like the word uh bunk. Oh uh he also follows up and uh says, How do you feel about salting meat that will be braced for a long time? For example, salting or brining some beef overnight before braising, so uh so the salt penetrates all the way through the meat. I guess this uh also applies to salty marinades.
+
+[40:38] Is the issue at hand that the salt will turn the texture of the meat mushy, or that you believe it will rob it of its juices, which I thought McGee uh debunked. Well, McGee's favorite McGee's like famous debunk is on searing, sealing in the juices, right? That's his super famous debunk, right? Um, but it's not that ju it's not juiciness. In fact, when you salt meat, the literal amount of water in it is uh gonna be higher because the the after cooking, because the proteins, even though you actually some moisture will come out, the meat uh itself will uh bind water uh better, which is what brining does, which is why when you brine chicken, it you know it you can overcook it a little bit and it still stays juicy.
+
+[41:19] Okay, so um salting can help juiciness that way, and it's not that it makes uh texture mushy, it just makes it firmer, more like a cured uh texture. And so when you're eating something like a steak, you don't want that firmness that you get from uh kind of curing with salt, and so you want to stay away from it. In braises, especially a traditional braise, where you're gonna cook the thing to death and you're using the gelatin, uh, the collagen breakdown of the gelatin to moisturize it. I don't think it's going to be an issue, and there you want the salt in there for flavor, so I think it's okay. It's when you're gonna serve something like a steak and you want to have the texture of a like a uh you know, a regular juicy steak and not have it be firm.
+
+[41:59] It's not that it's actually less juicy, it's just firmer. Does that make sense? Anyway, so uh I'm I am I am not in uh I'm in no way contradicting McGee. We are we are in agreement. Okay, so um all right, so there's a question coming in.
+
+[42:15] I gotta answer it because it's coming up on on Thanksgiving. We mentioned uh this is from uh Joe from Chicago. Uh I shudder to think of a day when you no longer release your weekly podcast. I'm constantly learning inspired. Thank you.
+
+[42:25] Thank you. Uh speaking of inspiration, I came away from last week's uh episode feeling compelled to make a modernist version of Turducken, uh, which is where you know you wrap the turkey and the duck and the chicken, and yeah, you go back and listen to last week if you want to know the specifics. Anyway, but have the following questions before I ruin a perfectly good turkey. What specific kind of meat glue would you recommend for this application? Uh you're gonna want to, Joe, you're gonna want to get uh transglutaminase at which is Activa RM.
+
+[42:49] RM is the one you sprinkle. If you want, you can get G S. G S is the one that you paint on in a paste. I'm uh kind of an RM junkie, but you know, GS will work fine. Don't get any other variety for this because you know you might run into problems.
+
+[43:01] So RM or GS. And you could probably get them from modernistpantry.com too. You mentioned gluing the turkey skin to the flattened turkey breasts. Would you recommend gluing any of the other layers together? Uh Joe, I glue all the layers together.
+
+[43:12] So what you're gonna do is you're gonna you're gonna put a sprinkling of glue. Every every time you uh put a layer of meat down, you're gonna sprinkle a little glue to get good adhesion um all the way through. Um and then what about stuffing as a layer or perhaps the core? I do use a sausage layer in the middle of the uh turduccin between the chicken and the duck. Um, and I do it, put it there because that's where uh you want like a thermal barrier.
+
+[43:36] So the duck doesn't want to be at 63, duck wants to be at uh like you know, 57, 58, you know, maxly 59, and then the turkey the chicken doesn't want to be anything below 63, so the sausage layer goes there because it can kind of take up that thermal difference. It'll be good in that whole range, and so that's why we put the stuffing there. You could also put it in the core, but the problem is it won't get cooked at that temperature. So you either have to pre-cook this the core then or you know, do something else. So I wouldn't put the stuffing at the core because the core is where the least cooked stuff is going to be.
+
+[44:07] Uh four, to retain the tube shape that is achieved primarily through meat glue and plastic the meat glue and plastic wrap, or would you recommend butcher's twine plastic wrap? Don't go with butcher's twine. If you've ever tried to meet glue stuff with Butcher's Twine, it's a bloody freaking mess. Don't do it. It's gonna everything, it's like just use the plastic wrap and roll it.
+
+[44:23] If you are against cooking in plastic wrap, then take the plastic wrap uh off before you cook it. By the way, Wiley was doing some plastic wrap in tubes at the uh at the Harvard, and he got heckled by a couple of students who was like, You're using plastic, you're killing the earth. Remember? Anyway. Uh and he was like, What?
+
+[44:38] I think you just ignored them. Uh five. You mentioned using a thermometer. Do you have any tips for using a probe thermometer with a ziploc without compromising the integrity of the bag? Is there an easy way to do it without pulling the bags out of the bath?
+
+[44:49] No. Uh I wouldn't put a ziploc through uh I mean, I wouldn't put a thermometer through a ziploc bag. They make semi-waterproof uh and heat-proof thermometers, Cooper Atkins does that. You can theoretically dishwash, you can stick them in the Ziploc bag. Um, but I've had bad luck.
+
+[45:04] I've had them always leak. So I wouldn't um I wouldn't recommend doing that. You look in a plastic wrap situation with a large thing like a Turduckin, I just shove the shove it probe through the through the plastic wrap, and you're gonna get a little bit of water leakage in, but over the size of like a whole kind of Turduccan thing, it's not gonna be uh it's not gonna be a big problem. Um okay. So uh those are my recommendations on that.
+
+[45:26] And to uh round it out, uh we have a call, I don't even know who this is from, actually, but someone sent us in. Steve. Oh, Steve. Hey, Steve. So Steve says uh the at water system's failure to address actual energy availability is well known, but people seem to assume it just scales uniformly, and that strikes me as a very flawed assumption, and sends us a link to an interesting paper uh which I can't actually get to, and the paper is known as uh processing food extensively by thermal and non thermal techniques.
+
+[45:53] Hmm. Uh anyway, so the Atwater system, for those of you that don't know, right? Atwater was the guy who uh his name was Wilbur Olin At uh Atwater, and he was uh alive, you know, in the in the you know he he was working roughly from after the Civil War up to the early part of the 1900s. And um he was the one that kind of figured out uh food energy and calories, right? So what he would do is he would uh eat a bunch of stuff and then uh kind of measure kind of uh what you know what he was that he that he ate.
+
+[46:25] He would burn it to kind of figure out how much energy it had, and then he would measure the like his poop and he would burn his poop and figure out how much stuff was left in his poop. He would try to figure out how much stuff he was peeing out, he tried to figure out how much he was breathing out in terms of figuring out like what like how you're actually utilizing the energy that's in food. And so the concept of the calorie as being a re like a reasonable thing was basically from you know stemming from his research and going on. And uh the the point is is in fact is that it's it uh kind of bunk, right? And so now we all have these calorie uh things uh that we see, and they try to they basically just take individual units, like protein has this much calories, fat has this many calories, carbohydrates have this many calories, and they lump them and then scale them.
+
+[47:07] And Steve, you're exactly right. Uh this it's completely incorrect. It's based on a whole bunch of like super incorrect uh assumptions. Um, you know, the people who are and the problem with it is is you know, as you say, that there no one has really given an alternative to try and figure out how it works. But my favorite is this.
+
+[47:28] Look, if you're eating a raw vegan diet, everybody knows that if you take a look at what's let what's excreted from your body that you don't digest it effectively, right? Uh and everybody knows that if you drink a gallon of corn oil, you're not gonna absorb that thing, you're gonna be spraying some corn oil out the other side, right? So uh clearly the combinations you eat, how you eat, and the quantities you eat and what you're eating is gonna make a huge difference. But the paper that he uh that he uh you know sent to us is very interesting because they did a bunch of testing on availability of uh energy from food cooking versus not cooking, and this is to go back to the raw vegan uh section we had before, and a lot more typically with meats, uh not just with starches, which is obvious, but with meats, uh cooking it makes a lot more of the energy apparently uh available, a lot more than just beating the hell out of it or blending it or anything like that. So, another argument for cooking your meat, cooking issues fishes got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
+
+[48:53] Supposed to meet my baby between the minutes late. You got my head all twisted, and I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:53] Go to Rackiton.com or get the app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:23] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the Heritage Radio Network at Roberta's Pizzeria in the back in the little container they have cut here for our radio station in the Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, although a sick Nastasha. Yes, right? Yes. Listen, while I while I talk about Nastasha, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you to call all of your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[1:47] That's 718497-2128. You gotta hurry, because we're only here to answer your Thanksgiving related cooking questions or otherwise for the next 45 minutes or say. So uh Nastash you're not feeling well, huh? No. You know it was even more depressing.
+
+[2:01] What? Getting on the subway and seeing everyone with their suitcases at Port Authority going home. Well, well, they were at Port Authority, so you can laugh at them for that reason. Port Authority is for those of you that haven't uh visited our fine city, Port Authority's a hellhole. I mean uh 100% unmitigated hunk of crap.
+
+[2:19] One job. One job. One job. Get people into the city and out of the city in an effective manner. So what what are some things you need?
+
+[2:27] Good transport back and forth, right? Good signage? Mm-hmm. Friendly staff. Yeah.
+
+[2:32] Any of those? No. No. Worse staff. Worse, unless you work there, in which case I love you.
+
+[2:38] Worse signage. Uh hard, you know, the building itself is split into two sections with a road running through it. So you're like, where's my bus? Oh, it's in the other building. How come there's no sign saying it's in the other freaking building?
+
+[2:50] Because this is Port Authority. What do you want? An easy way to get in and out of the city? What the hell's wrong with you? Anyway, Port Authority sucks.
+
+[2:57] The only thing that uh kind of rivals Port Authority for sucking has got to be Penn Station. Yeah. The other biggest hunk of crap in the entire city. And also the other place that's supposed to get people in and out of the city relatively easy. Again, for those of you that don't take trains in out of the city, either because you're rich enough to always have a car or whatever, I don't know why.
+
+[3:14] But uh for some reason, even at Grand Central, at Grand Central, I can tell you right now on a program exactly what track your train will be on in a month and a half. Okay. Uh at Penn Station, they like to wait until five minutes before the train's gonna leave. So that everyone with their luggage is smashing into each other down a tiny corridor to rush and beat each other up and like knock each other into the tracks to get to the train. Does this make any freaking sense?
+
+[3:42] Come on, people. Anyway, all right, enough of that. Okay. Uh did I already tell them to call in their questions? Yeah.
+
+[3:48] Anyway, so I think the reason Nastasha is sick is because Nastasha was in part, aside from all the other cooking issues and you know, new company related work that we're doing, she ran the uh wedding celebration for our good buddy Nils Norn and and Vicky. Uh, you know, chef Nils Norn, our buddy, had his uh wedding. Never thought he he never thought he would get married until he found Vicky, the right woman. And Nastasha forgets to tell me, it's a true story. Forgets to tell me, hey, Nils requested that you make some cocktails for the wedding, which I would gladly do.
+
+[4:18] I'll do anything for Nils. Uh doesn't tell me, makes them and was like, they've made them. Like the hell I made them. They were good. They were delicious, right?
+
+[4:29] But like I'm not gonna take the recipe. So's my recipe. If I make if I make Bobby Flay's recipe, I was like, hey, Bobby Flay made your chicken. Anyway, they were good. So, you know, to you goes the credit.
+
+[4:42] But had they sucked, to you would have gone the blame as well. Because that's the way she goes. All right. Matthew writes in, hi Dave and Nastasha. I'm looking forward to today's show.
+
+[4:51] Uh this Friday I'm catering a party, and the host has requested uh me to prepare a fillet of beef that's tenderloins for all the uh all you other people out there. I don't have access to a circulator, although there's a slight chance I could borrow one from some friends, and we'll have to cook the tenderloins from raw at the apartment where the party is. I'll probably cook one uh from medium rare to medium, which is already too high for my taste, by the way, uh, Matthew. Uh and another medium to well done and in parenthy writes, not my choice, obviously. Not anyone's choice.
+
+[5:19] What the hell? Just put a blindfold on the customer so they don't know how overcooked it is, and they'll enjoy it when it's cooked less. Anyway, i if you don't have the opportunity to poke their eyes out so they can't look at the color. I mean, uh, it's what you know, you're gonna have to so obviously if you do tenderloin well done, you're gonna have to sauce the sauce the bee Jesus out of it in order to have it be like even moderately edible, right or wrong. Right.
+
+[5:39] Anyway, uh, do you have any do you have any suggestions, guidelines, temperatures, or general advice for preparing preparing a beef filet with standard issue home kitchen equipment. I have about a three-hour window from when I arrive at the house until the meat will be served. Okay, look it. Uh if you really do have to cook one of these suckers until it's uh gray and unappetizing, you're gonna have to make a uh delicious sauce to go with it. Uh I suggest something a sauce with a lot of fat in it that's bound that's not gonna have the fat pull out, a cream-based sauce, perhaps, perhaps onions, cassis, and cream, some mixture thereof might be good with some reduced beef stock, right?
+
+[6:17] Sas, that sounds good, right? Anywho, uh so that's one thing. Another thing, if you if if you're gonna look if you're supposed to overcook it because your customers want it overcooked, you might as well go ballsy and do a beef wellington, because that's kind of ballsy, right? Where you take, you're gonna sear off the meat, then you're gonna uh take a mixture of pate and uh sauteed mushrooms and shallots and put it over the top of the tenderloin, wrap the sucker in puff pastry, and then cook it in a high oven. Guaranteed to overcook the tenderloin, but if they want it overcooked anyway, uh that's what I would recommend.
+
+[6:45] Now, tenderloin uh is interesting. It's a you know, it's a cut that a lot of chefs don't give um a lot of merit to because uh it doesn't have a lot of connective tissue, and people think of it as a fairly as far as beef goes, not having a lot of beef flavor. So chefs tend to make fun of the cut. Now, it can be delicious as a textural thing, and it does, I mean, come on, it does have some beef flavor, right? Yeah.
+
+[7:07] So uh and and sexist, it's usually it's like a lot of it, basically, there's a lot of sexism among news flash, a lot of sexism in this business. And uh, you know, it's seen as kind of a lady's cut, is kind of like it's the cosmo of steaks, basically. Uh so uh, but the trick to cooking one is one, not overcooking it. It because there's no connective tissue, it wants to cook at a very, very low temperature. So when I am using a circulator, I only cook it up to like 54.4 Celsius, which is very low, rare, uh, because it doesn't have any sort of fat really or connective tissue to protect it from overcooking.
+
+[7:41] Two, you don't want to cook it that long because you know even with a low temperature, even if you had a circulator, um, the meat would get um uh kind of mushy if you cooked it for uh a long time. So if you and I'm presuming, by the way, you are writing the the question that you want to keep it whole as a whole fillet and then cut serving. Otherwise, I would just cut it into steaks and cook the steaks, which is a lot easier to do uh well using home equipment. Now, I'm gonna go radical on you. First of all, if you have to do it at home equipment, I would put uh a crust on it, and then I would put it in the oven, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out of the oven to try and uh get a more moderate heat on it so it doesn't uh overcook.
+
+[8:20] Uh, but that's a pain in the butt. And if you don't do it all the time, that's how David Kinch like now replicates because he does David Kinch from Manresa, amazing chef, uh he uh moved away from using circulators and instead mimics uh the effect of a circulator, which is a low average heat input, by moving the meat in and out, in and out, in and out uh of an oven, which at the same time has the high heat of the oven, which crisps crisps and browns the outside while he's getting the low have it average heat input. So he's doing it that way. You can do it that way. Here's something I suggest: go to the apartment.
+
+[8:51] Most people's hot water taps at an apartment are fairly hot. Measure the temperature of the hot water using uh an instant read thermodynamic. If the water is within a couple of degrees of 54, like if it's 53, all the way up to like 55, 56, then I would put the tenderloin in a Ziploc bag with a little bit of oil and turn the running water on. If the water's too hot, add a tiny bit of cold water and it'll stabilize. Get a steady but not severe stream of uh hot water.
+
+[9:23] This won't work in an apartment, by the way, uh in a house because you'll typically run out of hot water, but in an apartment, usually you won't. So you can run a steady stream of hot water over a Ziploc bag. And I've actually cooked food this way in a pinch. It's completely eco unfriendly, uh, but uh it will work. Bring it, you want to make sure that the thing cooks through in under you want to cook it in about 45 to 50 minutes, and a tenderloin will cook through.
+
+[9:47] Uh, it depends on how thick it is. It might take an hour and a half if it's really thick, uh, and then pull it out, cool it down a little bit and sear the outside of it. Is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:56] Anyway. So about 54 is where I shoot for for rare. I do not go above 56. Tenderloin has a very, very short window of uh yumminess. Okay.
+
+[10:05] Uh now, uh, our good friend uh Arielle from UC Davis. Is she a postdoc now at UC Davis? Or is she still a grad student? What is she? Is she postdoc?
+
+[10:13] I don't know. Anyway, our good buddy who used to be at NYU is friends with uh Kent Kirstenbaum, and um she gave us some very interesting information. She's uh running some tests on lime juice for us uh for herself, really, but you know, it also helps us because uh you know people who've heard me yap about lime juice a lot know that uh a lot of people prefer lime juice that's three or four hours old as opposed to very fresh lime juice in a cocktail. And so she's doing the preliminary studies on what's actually going on in the lime juice, and apparently the volatile, the level of volatiles decreases rapidly over that first three to four hour chunk, and other flavors are starting to come in. So that's it looks like there might be an actual sweet spot in the lime juice if you like a specific profile.
+
+[10:56] More to come. She's gonna work on it more in the new year, but that's pretty interesting, huh? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And uh the other thing is that she wrote in about uh pungency and garlic, which is something that I, you know, I apparently now got wrong, and apparently McGee also we both got it wrong.
+
+[11:12] There is a pungency scale for alliums, onions in in particular, but I'm sure it would also work with garlic, and it's called the pyruvate scale. So what happens is is when it when you convert uh alian or whatever it is to allicin, whichever way it goes, from the non-pungent to the pungent using the enzymes when you cut or crush garlic or onion, uh, that pungency that's created also creates uh a mod a molecule of pyruvate, which is easily measurable and doesn't degrade. So what happens is they uh as fast. So they make the uh they crush up onions and they use a relatively inexpensive piece of equipment, a uh spectrophotometer, as opposed to like doing uh um uh you know uh chromatography, a more expensive process. And they can measure directly the level of uh pyruvate that's there, and therefore uh have a measure of how pungent the uh product is.
+
+[12:01] So there is a measure of pungency. Uh that in from Ariel, and you can look it up. You it was even on Wikipedia, I should have looked at it. It's called pyruvate scale. Dumb.
+
+[12:10] I'm dumb. Uh anyway, she sent us a paper. Um, and you can you can just go look it up for those of you that have that sort of uh that sort of a capability to look up papers, pyruvate scale. Anyway, interesting, yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[12:22] Yeah. Um, all right. Now, Jason from the southwest of England writes in and says, I'm a dedicated podcast listener, but usually cannot listen live and call in because I am in England, although I'm a native New Yorker. So hopefully I can ask Dave a question via email. Well, here you are doing it.
+
+[12:38] Here it is happening. Okay. Uh I had an argument recently with some people, most notably my wife, about storing coffee. She told me it should not be stored cold. I keep my current bag of coffee in the fridge and any supplies in the freezer.
+
+[12:50] No one could explain to me why this was bad. And I assume that reducing the rate of oxidation in general spoilers by keeping the coffee cold has to be a major benefit given how fast uh coffee gets old and stale. My rationale also include the fact that the ground uh coffee is going to come up to temperature super fast given its low moisture content, high surface area, and the fact that it's being immersed in hundred degree water. What do you think? The science uh the science uh says store it cold, but people seem to be arguing against us for some reason.
+
+[13:18] Thanks. Jason, who adds uh in parents, stuck in Southwest England. Well, listen. Hey, if you're gonna be in Southwest England, Jason, now's the time. Shout out to Somerset and the cider folks over there.
+
+[13:30] You guys gotta be rolling an apple cider at this point. I mean, maybe it's not done yet, but that's one of the apple cider producing kingdoms, like centers of the universe right there. I mean, if I like like in fact, if I had the time, if I wasn't working on so much stuff, and if it wasn't Thanksgiving, I'd be getting on a plane right now and flying to the uh other side, and you know, sorry, Somerset, I'd be going to Kent to go to the uh the Brogdale collection and chewing down on some apples and having some delicious cider over there. So good time to be from the South, uh, I mean, good time of year, to be uh from the south of England. Remember?
+
+[14:02] Yeah. Yeah, it was a fun time. Good time. Yeah, fun time, fun time I have my own. Yeah.
+
+[14:06] I'm sick. Anyway, uh, that's my nostalgia invitation, by the way. Okay, so back to the question on coffee. Now, listen. I was not able, listen, I was not able to find any actual uh scholarly research on this.
+
+[14:20] But I will tell you uh the reasoning uh that I have heard over the years and uh it's also and you know not to choose sides with your wife but that you shouldn't store the coffee in the fridge and here's why uh it's not the cold uh it's not the co it's not the cold that's hurting it it's the fact that uh you get a lot of condensation as the temperature changes up and down up and down up and down so if you had uh if if you had coffee in a hermetically sealed bag that had no moisture or you know the same amount of moisture that the coffee had in it controlled atmosphere let's say CO2 purge nitrogen purge vacuum right uh and you pulled it uh in and out of the fridge there might actually be some damage from temperature cycling but the damage wouldn't be that great because you wouldn't be getting any condensation from the outside from moisture coming into the outside uh in a normal situation there's moisture and the condensation of that moisture on the surface of the beans as the temperature changes is what's causing the problem and that's especially going to happen if you're in and out in and out in and out if you are going to freeze uh the coffee freezing is viable but you have to make sure that there's no moisture in the package at all. So you want to get all the air out of the package if you have the ability to flush uh with some sort of gas like CO2 or whatnot if it's not fresh. Very fresh beans by the way when you roast a fresh bean if you were to you by the way, you should just roast you should roast your own beans, which is a load of fun. Just get some green beans, roast them. It's a lot of fun.
+
+[15:51] Uh uh I mean it's really it really is. And you can you don't have to get really some fancy equipment. You can start just with a pan and and and you know, spoon, you know, shake it around. Uh if you just invest, I think like twenty bucks in a whirly pop popcorn maker, they make great you can roast coffee very well in that. I know I'm gonna get some calls saying that I'm a jerk, but you don't even need a thermometer.
+
+[16:11] Uh you can do it based on sound and smell. Don't say don't tell anyone I said that, but you can do good coffee roasting just uh based on that, or you can move to an air popcorn popper, a number of ways to do roast coffee. But then you can do it. But if you roast your own coffee, you'll notice that um they gas a lot. If you were to take freshly roasted coffee that you just roasted and sealed it in a jar, uh w i i assuming the jar didn't blow up, I don't think it would make enough pressure to blow up the jar.
+
+[16:38] But when you open it, it will you get a blast of CO2 out because the CO2 is being evolved out of the beans as they age. Uh and so that's why they actually have one-way valves in these bags to stop the bags from puffing up so that the CO2 can get out. Umce the beans uh have gotten rid of all of their CO2 beans. Once the beans have gotten rid of the CO2, uh, then they start to oxidize much more rapidly and they and they stale. Um I don't know what I what got me in.
+
+[17:06] I don't know what I got into that. But my point is is that uh they want to be protected from oxygen. Oxygen is gonna be their enemy, moisture is gonna be their enemy. Um so I think that the also your fridge has lots of uh I mean, I don't know about your fridge. You might have the cleanest fridge in the world, but fridges tend to have a lot of um stink in them.
+
+[17:23] They have a little stank. Uh which is why like when a fridge, when the power goes out, you realize how stinky your fridge is because it's not cold anymore, which does you know it doesn't dampen down the volatiles and you can really smell it. So coffee, which is very porous, tends to pick up bad aromas. It tends to pick up moisture, which condenses on it as it goes in and out of the fridge, and so the consensus is don't do it. Yeah?
+
+[17:41] Good job. Yeah. Alright, Nastash is happy with my answer. I hope, Jason, that you are happy with my answer. What?
+
+[17:44] Nastasha thinks we should go to our first commercial break, so we'll do that. Calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. I've been drawn into your magnets all strap. Welcome back to Cooking Issues.
+
+[19:57] Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So the Nirvana folks, the I like the Nirvana, that was what I grew up with. So I'm at this wedding that Nastasha is running, right? This was not my fault.
+
+[20:10] Hey, look. So the DJ's playing all kind of easy, you know, not easy, but you know, like, you know, brick house. Like wedding kind of stuff, you know. Mighty my te. Anyway, and so like, you know, I'm dancing.
+
+[20:20] By well, by the way, I'm a kind of a lunatic dancer, and I was with Vicky, our former intern, who's all like an awesome Staten Island lunatic dancer. Awesome, amazing. And my wife, we're dancing, and they throw on uh, you know, they throw on um uh smells like Teen Spirit from Nirvana. And I'm like, wait, what, what? What?
+
+[20:39] At a wedding? I was like, look, if you're gonna do that, the only appropriate way to do that is to go complete mosh out headbang slam. So I'm like, alright. You asked for it. You played it.
+
+[20:50] And so I started doing the the headbang. Now it's not the same as when I had long hair back in 19 uh, you know, 90, 91. But uh you clear the dance floor. Uh clear the dance floor. I mean, everyone's like trying to do the little shoulder shake.
+
+[21:02] It's freaking nirvana. Anyways, uh, you know, thank god it wasn't 1991, or like some giant football jock would have started doing it and smashed into me and knocked me halfway across the this is my memory, by the way. Now this is what my life used to be like. Anywho, uh my neck is still sore. So it turns out that when you're 40 going on 41, if you haven't done the headbang in a while, you might want to stay away.
+
+[21:27] Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies, and only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[21:55] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free sample of transglutaminase aka meat glue to experiment with over the holidays.
+
+[22:14] Simply use the promo code CI63. Placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Meat glue. We've talked about it.
+
+[22:27] I like it though. It's good stuff. It is good for the holiday season, the little meat glue. Um, those guys, they like us, those modernist pantry guys, huh? It's good.
+
+[22:35] We met them? No. Never met them in person, huh? Anyway. Uh, so what are you doing for the Thanksgiving?
+
+[22:41] I don't know yet. You don't know? Are you I I've I put my order in for the uh turkey. You put your orders in there. No, I didn't.
+
+[22:46] I do the Turkey Farmer. Do you guys remember his name, the turkey farmer? Larry Sorell. Larry Sorrell, the Heritage Meat Turkey Farmer, right? I guess like it's done done.
+
+[22:56] The turkeys are slaughtered. They're dead. So you can come in from where does he live? He lives in Pennsylvania. Where is he?
+
+[23:01] Uh Kansas. Kansas. Same thing. Kansas, Pennsylvania. Same thing.
+
+[22:59] Same thing. Anyway, so he's uh he's here at Roberta's eating, which is awesome because I'm about to go uh to the Heritage Meat Stand at Essex Street Market. By the way, you can now just any any Jocomo who happens to show up in the Lower East Side of New York can go purchase Heritage Meads at the Essex Street Market. Little known fact by people who didn't already know it. And uh uh and I'm gonna go pick up my turkey today and next week I'll report back of how delicious.
+
+[23:29] What are you doing? I don't know. You know what? You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking I might look I I've become lazy in my old age.
+
+[23:35] As soon as you hit 40, you instantly become lazy. Sorry, all you 45 year olds, your lazy sons of guns. Anyway, uh I'm I think I'm just gonna bone the sucker out, roll it in. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? I meant that's what I'm telling you about the turkey cook.
+
+[23:45] I'm gonna bone it out. What else is there to do? Be thankful for my family? I'm kidding. Uh so I'm going to Mystic, which is where my uh in-laws live.
+
+[23:52] But uh, I'm gonna bone out the turkey uh and probably roll it and then uh and then cook it that way. I think that's the easiest way. I you know, I just don't have the time this year to do the uh, you know, the the aluminum skeleton and pumping the oil, although it is the best damn turkey I've ever made. Anyway, on to questions. Uh Matthew writes in uh about braise colors.
+
+[24:11] Thanks a lot for answering my questions last week. This week I'm working on a sandwich for my business based around red wine braised beef. I am braising Chuck on the stovetop in red wine and beef broth. After slowly simmering for a few hours, I pull the beef apart and reduce the brace to a glaze. Everything comes out pretty well except for the color ends up being grayish.
+
+[24:28] Ideally, I want to end up with something the color of red wine or Concord grape juice. Mmm, Concord Grape. Delicious, Nustacha's favorite. Any ideas or suggestions would be a great help. Thanks, Matthew.
+
+[24:37] Okay, look. Here's the issue. Let's just let's knock right off the bat. You're not using an aluminum, I mean, not aluminum. You're not using a reactive pan that's going to cause a color problem, right?
+
+[24:44] So typically like aluminum or copper or anything like that. I'm assuming that you're working in stainless or some other form of something that's not going to cause any sort of off coloring based on the metal. Bang, done. Uh I think anytime you're doing a long cook and you're reducing and you have a lot of uh stuff like beef brothers or browns, the colors are never going to be as punchy as you want. Uh if you say gray, usually I'm used to going kind of a brownish color.
+
+[25:11] Uh, and then that brown can go somewhat grayish if there's fat that ends up getting emulsified into the braise. So I'd make sure you try and skim the fat after before you before you reduce it down to a glaze, get the fat off of it. Um also you might the flavor is going to be different. Like the real depth of flavor, you're gonna want that uh that you know browned, you know, meat stock, but you might move to like a white veal stock, which you can reduce a lot more without getting the huge color impact from all the brown bits. Uh, you know, if you don't brown the meat as much, but again, all that stuff's what makes it delicious.
+
+[25:41] So I think it's gonna be hard to kind of punch the color. Now you can cheat, but it it really ruin, you know, change not ruins, it's delicious, changes the flavor by doping up the color with things that have very high colorant values, like uh jelly, like Concord grape jelly, but that's gonna add Concord or tomato paste or something of that nature. It's gonna punch uh punch the red up. Um I'm interested in hearing anyone else whether they have any suggestions on this. Uh I mean, I like a braised kind of a sauce, but they always do look kind of gloopy unless you just create the sauce from scratch instead of having it be part of the braise.
+
+[26:15] You know, like have the braise be the braise, save that sauce, continue to brazen it, and then just make a specific sauce that has a specific color profile, a cassis or whatever, to go with it. What do you think, Steph? Sounds good. She's like, I don't care, I'm sick. She's like, I don't give a crap, I'm sick.
+
+[26:28] Happy Thanksgiving. Okay. Colin writes in. You mentioned uh on last week's show that tannins and pectins combine in persimmons as they ripen to make them less astringent. Can I add pectin to something tannic like black walnut booze, for instance, to reduce the astringency?
+
+[26:42] I tried an LN2, that's liquid nitrogen for all you folks out there, freeze last year to dehydrate the tannins at your suggestion, but that did not have a strong effect. Sorry. Uh I'll try pectin, but if you ever tried something similar, thanks, Colin. Okay, look it. Look it.
+
+[26:57] What happens is um tannin will complex with uh pectin in fruit, right, in a bleding situation. Uh bleding. That's look it up. Anyway, uh or listen to last week's show. Uh but the um uh most effective way to do it, tannins like to bind with proteins a lot.
+
+[27:14] So if you really want to bind the hell out of tannins, you're gonna want to treat it with a protein-based wine finding agent. So, what are your choices? Uh already in your fridge, most likely egg white. So uh mix um and you can look up the proportions uh in uh you know in a wine finding on the internet, but it's usually egg white and salt. Uh I forget why the salt's there.
+
+[27:35] I think to I don't know, make the proteins act better. I don't know why it's there, frankly. Uh and water to make it easy to mix in. You stir it into your liquid, um, and then over the course of set of like a week or two, the egg white proteins will combine with the tannins into larger, um into larger complexes, and when they do that, they'll slowly sink to the bottom, and then you can rack the stuff off the top. So that's classic way to do it.
+
+[27:59] Uh even more hardcore than uh egg in terms of its ability to remove tannins, because egg's gonna remove tannins, but not uh necessarily that much. Gelatin. If you uh if you uh dissolve gelatin, mix the gelatin in the gelatin will complex with the tannin, and then over time settle out into the bottom, and you can rack it off. If you have a center fuse, you can do it uh e even easier. So it's typically these also milk proteins can do it.
+
+[28:23] If you it uh if you combine uh milk proteins, but the problem with milk proteins is uh I think in order to get them to settle out properly, you might have to have a fairly low pH, which I think you won't have in your walnut liqueur. So it's you know it's it's a question. Uh I'm also I think the gelatin will work at basically any pH, but typically these things are done at wine pHs. But I would use this sort of uh this sort of a technique. Or move to something like kitasan, which you can get at a um you know what, stick with a protein.
+
+[28:49] Tell tell me how it works. So one of those things uh should work. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[28:54] Whatever. Anyway. Okay. Aaron from the north of England. It's an English show today.
+
+[28:59] By the way, our good friend Tony Canularo is engaged from Dark 6ix9ine Cobrook Road, engaged to be married. Happened a long time ago, but I don't think we've mentioned it on the air. Yeah, amazing. Congratulations. Yeah.
+
+[29:09] Nice. Anyway, good people. Uh okay. Uh Aaron writes in uh hello, Nastasha and Dave. Um still loving the show.
+
+[29:16] Thanks very much, very inspiring. I like that he's like assuming that we're gonna turn to crap. He's like, I'm still loving it. I was expecting it would be crap by now, but I'm still loving it. I think it's a lot of people are responding to are you listening?
+
+[29:27] Oh, yeah, right. It's one of these. You there? You there? Anyway.
+
+[29:33] Uh I would really like to improve how I present my food. I'm not looking for super fine dining level of presentation, but I would like to incorporate as much as possible that quality into the food I serve people at home. Uh, I'm in the north of England and haven't found any appropriate courses anywhere near me so far. Can you recommend any resources online or in print to help me learn? Uh all the best.
+
+[29:52] Thanks very much, Aaron. It's an interesting question, actually. Um it's a very interesting question. Uh and it's one I was thinking about this morning, and I don't have a I don't have a good answer, so I'm just gonna talk about it. We used to teach a plating course at the French culinary, but I don't Nils taught it because Nils is kind of a monster plater.
+
+[30:10] Uh but they you know they they don't teach it anymore. Plating at home is always uh it's difficult because usually you're the only person doing the plating and you have to get all the components together and and serve it out, so it can be uh a little more difficult. But if what you're interested in is just I typically at home will serve uh family style, and then the question is just making the individual dishes look nice. So you have to look at it from a like a range of a range of of ideas. One, are you just talking about what the food looks like in general, or are we really talking about plating?
+
+[30:41] If you're just talking about what the food looks like in general, then as you're making choices, you make choices not only based on taste, but based on how how something's gonna look in the end, right? So you'll choose things. They obviously taste is the primary thing you're gonna choose, but you'll think, well, that color is gonna go really nice with that. And instinctively you start making choices about how things like that are gonna look. Being that, oh man, that color would look really nice.
+
+[31:05] You know, what flavor would go really nice that has that color, and you could bring like a pop, you know, like a like really something nice and poppy to it color-wise, right? Uh uh, or I'm gonna use a different kind of a cooking technique because I don't want it to look overreduced or brown or something like this, right? So that's the first step. The second step then is is actually once you get the the colors and the and the look of the food to be what you want. Now, how do you present it?
+
+[31:29] And the the best way to do that is to just read, not uh I don't have any good uh I've read some, I'm not gonna even recommend it, but the ones I've I'm sure there's great ones. So I'm not insulting if it happens to be someone here that's written one, please tell us which one it is, I'll take a look at it. But some of the old plating technique books that I've read, I don't really first of all, they tend to be dated by the time they come out, and you know, they're kind of they're kind of I don't know, just they've never really been inspired by them, you know. What I would do is just go look at a bunch of chef cookbooks that put out restaurant meals and you get an idea for what's possible with plating. So if you're looking to do food at a particular in a particular style, then find the cookbook of a chef who's respected who does that.
+
+[32:11] Like if you want like kind of, hey, I'm a I'm a badass big meat jockey, go get the uh Piet de Couchon book and like you know, he'll show you how to stick a knife through a sandwich or something like that. You know what I mean? Or if you want to do something kind of really like high-end plating and fresh and new, go look at like 11 Madison's all plated out, you know, the new cookbook. But I would look at at cookbooks. But I'm gonna think more about this, and hopefully people will write in and tell me things that they like so that next week I can mention them on the show.
+
+[32:37] Do you have anything? No, no, I think that's a good idea, though. Yeah, but I'm I'm I'm interested in hearing from uh, you know, this week you can prove you're listening by writing in with uh ideas for blading technique, uh, like resources, right? You live in the middle of nowhere, yeah. Yeah, I mean other things like you can practice, like there's certain plating techniques you can learn, like you can learn to canal something, right?
+
+[32:57] Uh and just look online for YouTube videos on how to canel. Or you can learn how to drop uh, you know, oil onto a soup with a with a squeeze bottle. I mean, if you want to do some fancy plating techniques, learn to do good work with a spoon, like the brush, the schmear, learn to learn to drop things out of squeeze bottles, but that's kind of old school. Anyway, uh look it up. Nastasha is is trying to punch me in the face, telling me we have to take our second commercial break.
+
+[33:19] So we'll come right back, call your questions to 718-497-2128. 718497-2128. A fly just attacked me. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. So Nastasha, you're gonna you're gonna, even though you're sick, are you gonna go to the Thanksgiving Day parade this year?
+
+[34:35] No, no. I'm gonna watch them blow up the balloons tomorrow. I like that. I wish they would explode the balloons. I hate parades.
+
+[34:42] The only thing I like what? Have your kids gone? No. Hell no. No.
+
+[34:47] No. First of all, my son Booker, can you imagine him in that crowd of people waiting for a balloon to pass? Blown up around natural history. That's cool. Yeah?
+
+[34:58] Mm-hmm. Yeah, whatever. I've seen it, I've seen every parade. I hate parades. Hey, listen.
+
+[35:02] You know what I like? Bagpipes. You don't like bagpipes now? No, I do. It's just you would, you know.
+
+[35:08] I mean I would. I don't know. Bagpipes are amazing. It's sad. What's sad?
+
+[35:12] Sound is sad. It's not sad. It's stirring. Okay. Look.
+
+[35:18] If you get married, bagpipe. Oh my God. Yes. No, it's not only for funerals. I want all of Scotland to punch Nastasha in the face the next time you see her.
+
+[35:30] I'm kidding, don't do that. Not advocating any violence. But I'm saying yes, funerals, because it's stirring. You're also supposed to play bagpipes when you march into battle. And you play the big weddings.
+
+[35:44] Bagpipes are always appropriate. Anytime music is appropriate, the Great Highland bagpipes is appropriate. Okay. It's an amazing instrument. Anyway, I enjoy bagpipes.
+
+[35:55] What do you think every parade is a funeral? Why do they have them at parades? I I guarantee they don't have them here. What? Well, I don't care.
+
+[36:04] I don't like the Thanksgiving Day parade. The heck. Just marching bands. Yeah, marching bands. Bagpipes.
+
+[36:11] Yeah. Funeral. Can we just do the rest of the show with bagpipes in the background? Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
+
+[36:20] We have to put in the greatest rock and roll bagpipe of all time. That's not really a great look. Which is long way to the top. If you want to rock and roll, it's the greatest use of bagpipes in rock and roll. Am I right?
+
+[36:31] Yeah. Yes! Okay. Back on back on task. Back on task.
+
+[36:37] Back on cooking issues task. Alright, sorry. Anyway, uh, on record, I do not enjoy a parade except for the bagpipes. Okay. Uh Steve Santana writes in.
+
+[36:48] I was wondering if Dave could go over a few sous vide questions relating to duck breasts. Should the skin be scored before bagging or just before searing? Should the breast be bagged with butter, or better yet, rendered duck fat if I can find some, or were the fat already under the skin be enough? With the same results from uh the last to salt or not to salt post, apply to duck breast too. And should the duck breast be chilled after cooking, uh, and he's asking 40 minutes to 64 Celsius as the time and temperature for cooking before searing.
+
+[37:15] Okay, I'm just gonna go over this. First of all, don't cook the duck breast that high. I would not go uh standard uh, you know, like Long Island Peckin style duck uh breasts 57 degrees Celsius for 45 minutes is sufficient. Uh I wouldn't go above that. If you have a uh a tougher duck breast, sometimes you can go to 58.
+
+[37:37] I don't recommend cooking duck breasts longer than about an hour because it doesn't happen all the time, but they can start tasting livery and the color can start going gray if they're cooked for too long. So I would not recommend cooking the duck breast too long. Also, I don't bag the duck breast with anything other than the duck breast. Uh they they don't really need it because here's what you're gonna and I don't cut it or do anything beforehand because you're not really rendering out fat at those temperatures. If you're cooking to 50, 57, 58, you're not really rendering a lot of fat.
+
+[38:07] So uh what I would do is bag the duck breast, put it on a table, squash the skin side flat so that later on when you sear it, it will um it will be flat against your pan, it's gonna sear out properly. Now I know the the good folks at Modernist Cuisine, you know, young Miravold, Belay, they I think do a pre-sear, a cryo sear. Uh they freeze the duck's skin, then they s uh they poke it with holes, then they freeze it, then they then they bag it, then they cook it, then they refreeze it, then they sear it. I typically, I haven't done a side-by-side, so I don't know what's better. I typically don't sear my duck breast before because what I'm doing when I do my sous- vide cooking is uh technique I call uh low temperature or sous vide for insurance purposes.
+
+[38:44] I'm ensuring that the duck breast is cooked throughout to the temperature I want. And then I cool it and then I sear it off as though I was doing a traditional cook on it. The only difference is is that now all I'm focusing on is crispy, delicious skin. So I'm not worried about cooking the duck breast because it's already cooked. So uh all I'm worried about then is rendering the fat and crisping the skin out.
+
+[39:11] Uh and so that's a and it's a whole there's a whole range of techniques like that that I call low temp, you might call it sous-vide, although you're wrong, it's low temp unless it's in a vacuum bag, which this is, uh, for insurance. I do that with roasts, I'll do it with poultry, I'll do it with a lot of things. And it it and what it lets you do is get a lot of traditional taste and texture, uh, but at the same time ensure that uh you have the meat cooked properly and that you're only focusing on one problem at a time, getting the skin right, instead of trying to get the skin right and the meat right at the same time. Okay? Now, uh as uh regards uh scoring it, uh Nils, and I have to agree with him here because I did a side-by-side, detests scoring uh the skin on a duck because when you score it, uh where you score it, you tend to overcook the meat because the steam when you're rendering goes up and overcooks the meat at that point.
+
+[40:01] Uh there's a f there's there's fly mageddon, by the way, going on outside. It's always something funny. There's something crazy always going on outside at Roberta's Pizzeria. Today is Fly Mageddon. They're like running around with smashing uh flies with uh with papers.
+
+[40:15] What? What was it last week? I don't remember. Oh, and last week it was Indie Jesus. Well, that's every week at Roberta's Pizzeria.
+
+[40:21] Uh so, anyways, so uh where was I? So uh I would use here's a technique that modernist cuisine does, which everyone can do, and I think is awesome. Go to your local pet supply store and purchase a dog combing brush, the one with all the little spikes in it, and instead of scoring the uh skin on the duck breast, whack it a few times with the dog with the stainless steel dog comb, and that way uh you can render out a lot of the fat without overcooking the uh meat. It's a great technique. I've tried it.
+
+[40:50] Uh I think it's awesome. Do not salt the duck before you cook it, salt the duck, maybe right before you sear it, and that's the that's the way to go. What do you think? Good. I'm gonna make a shout out to the guys who listen at Blue Hill at Stone Barnes.
+
+[41:04] All right, make a shout out. Hi. Well, that's quite a shout-out, Nastasha. You really know how to shout out. Be like, to the guys who listen at Blue Hill Stone Barns, keep it farming.
+
+[41:14] That's a shout-out. Anyway, okay. Uh Tim Hayes from Eugene, Oregon writes in uh regard I'll just read it. Hi, Tim from Eugene, Oregon here. Ready to tell you how great the podcast is and ask you a question.
+
+[41:28] I usually stay on the savory side when cooking, but lately I've been seduced by the sweet recipes from Christina Tozi's Mama Fuku milk bar book. Specifically the incredible cookie recipe she has so kindly shared with the world. My favorite cookie of hers is a corn is the corn cookie. I enjoy the corn cookie quite a lot. Do you like the corn cookie?
+
+[41:44] You don't like corn and cookies. You're a low quality person, Nustacha. Although I love you, but you're a low-quality human being. Okay. Wow.
+
+[41:50] Yeah. Right? I mean, you know what I'm saying. I'm so immune to it. What is you say to me?
+
+[41:57] What are you talking about? Like low quality when you call me that. I I it's like a it's like a nice love thing. Yeah. When other people hear you say it, they're like, whoa.
+
+[42:06] Yeah. Well, you know, it's with love folks. I don't want anyone, I don't want anyone to be like, whoa, you just called her a low-quality human being. One day we'll be low-quality human beings. Exactly, Jack.
+
+[42:18] Well, it depends. Uh, do you hate corn and peanuts? No. Do you hate biscuits? No.
+
+[42:24] Alright. Alright. Um, okay, sorry. Specifically the incredible cookie recipe she's so kindly shared with the world. My question relates to the epic hard-bodied 10-minute creaming of butter and sugar that the rest of her cookie recipes require.
+
+[42:37] Uh, and by the way, what what we're talking about here is Tozy recommends um uh a very long creaming process, 10 minutes where the sugar and the butter are creamed together uh and then the eggs are whipped in. And the uh basic idea is is to generate as much uh by the way, if you heard that thap ten seconds ago, it was part of Fly Mageddon going on in Robertus. Uh so the cream the prolonged creaming step uh whips a lot of air into the cookie and provides the uh structure that she likes in her cookie, and so she's very and we work in the milk bar commissary. I can say they cream the hell out of that stuff. Anyway, so uh my question relates to the epic hard body ten minute creaming of butter and sugar that her recipes require.
+
+[43:16] I see the reasons for this step uh to aerate the mix, but her peanut butter cookie recipe got me thinking. She mentions that you only need to cream this recipe for about three minutes because of the emulsifying properties of the peanut butter. Sure enough, uh the mix fluffs up much quicker. So a two-part question. What about peanut butter makes it such a great emulsifier?
+
+[43:34] And would it be possible to use emulsifying agents to quicken the creaming in other cookie recipes? Now I guarantee that the way that uh C Tozy figured this out was she noticed that her peanut butter stuff was uh cream, you know, was getting the amount of air beaten into it much more quickly than other things. Then the question is, is it really the emulsifiers in it that are doing it? And I did some initial research. Uh and it it it's hard to find.
+
+[44:01] Apparently, look, like protein, there is protein in peanuts, and that protein can probably act as somewhat as an emulsifying agent. Then the second question is well, perhaps there's what the was wrong with you, Nastasha. This guy's hitting the flies, but he's got this cigarette in the other hand. What does that have to do with anything? Stasi, she's crazy, she's crazy from big.
+
+[44:21] Anyway, so uh I looked up uh peanut butters, uh, industrial peanut butters. I looked up GIF and I looked up Skippy. Okay. Now, everybody knows, some people know, I should say, if you grind your own peanut butter or you buy natural peanut butter, the uh peanut oil separates from the peanut solids and has to be whisked back in, right? Peanut butter is basically you know, solids kind of emulsified into a it into peanut oil.
+
+[44:46] So GIF does that, good old GIF. GIF does that by adding monoandiglycerides, which is a straight up emulsifier. So if you use GIF, you are added, you are adding an emulsifier into your cookie mix, and that will help incorporate air, right? But uh if you look at Skippy's label, Skippy doesn't put monoandiglycerides in their regular peanut butter. Instead, they substitute a certain amount of peanut oil for a hydrogenated fat.
+
+[45:15] And that hydrogenated fat, which is solid instead of uh liquid at room temperature, prevents the separation of skippy peanut butter. Okay? So there's two basic ways that they can stop the separation of peanut butter emulsifiers or with uh adding uh a hydrogenated fat. My prediction look towards more people adding uh emulsifiers because less and less people are going to want to add hydrogenated fat because of the bad wrap hydrogenated fat gets. This guy is freaking serious about killing flies, by the way.
+
+[45:43] That's it. It's crazy. It's like it's like seriously, it's like it's like, you know, war crimes against flies. He's like going crazy over here. Anyway.
+
+[45:44] Uh but that led me to think. Actually, I think what's going on is that the peanut butter itself is acting as a whipping agent, right? So when you're creaming sugar and uh butter, uh the sugar, the particles in the sugar before they dissolve and melt are acting as uh basically they're carving holes in the butter as you as you're whipping, and they act as a whipping and aerating agent. And I think the tiny particles in peanut butter are also acting as a whipping agent, which is why you can actually whip peanut butter if you add a little liquid to it, you can whip it up on its own. So I think it's probably not the emulsifiers that are doing it, but the fact that a peanut butter itself is acting as a whipping agent.
+
+[46:32] I could use a peanut butter cookie right about now. Maybe I'll go to milk bar and steal a peanut butter cookie. Are we going there? We're going to milk bar because I have work work to do, but I'm gonna I'm gonna steal a peanut butter cookie. So if anyone there is uh you know, beyond notice, I'm gonna steal a peanut butter cookie from you.
+
+[46:46] Anyway, uh, I hope all of you have a fantastic Thanksgiving and a delicious, delicious, delicious turkey on your turkey day. Cooking issues.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Intuit QuickBooks Bill Pay. You didn't start a business to spend your Sundays chasing invoices and manual data entry. But as you grow, accounts payable starts to feel like a full-time job you never applied for. Bills pile up, approvals get lost in email, and your vendors are constantly asking, where's my check? It's distracting.
+
+[0:18] It's stressful, and it's keeping you from the work that actually moves the needle. Intuit QuickBooks Bill Pay is the exit ramp. QuickBooks Bill Pay automates the busy work that eats your calendar by bringing every bill, every vendor, and every payment into one organized dashboard. Stop chasing details and start seeing the big picture. Know exactly what's due, who needs to sign off, and how it impacts your cash flow before the money leaves your bank.
+
+[0:39] Vendors can even manage their own details, so you stay in control of how and when you pay. Grow with confidence and put your AP on autopilot in QuickBooks. Learn more at QuickBooks.com slash Billpay. Again, that's QuickBooks.com slash Billpay. Terms apply.
+
+[0:53] Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc., licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Broadcasting live from Robert is in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizza Willia in Bushwick, Brooklyn, from approximately 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:37] Here today as usual. Oh, let me show you the number first. Yeah. Alright. Calling all of your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[1:43] That's 718497-2128. We'll take any kind of question. Anything you got, whatever you got, we'll take it. Anyway. Here in the studio, uh, joined as usual, uh with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, who uh uh joined me for my second my Sunday Thanksgiving, right?
+
+[2:00] Mm-hmm where we cooked uh Patrick's uh heritage Wacalote. That for those of you that don't speak that that means bobble turkey, right? So we cooked up a heritage turkey eggs delicious, right? What's the name of the farmer again? Reese don't know.
+
+[2:15] Sorry, I'm slow here. Frank Reese. Frank Reese, yeah. So it was uh it was a delicious turkey. I think I didn't cook the um the uh dark meat long enough.
+
+[2:24] So here's what I did, folks. Uh so I have to admit, I was going up to Mystic Connecticut where my in-laws live, and uh they'd already bought a turkey by the time I told them I had a turkey. So I was like, you know what? Crap on it. I'm gonna let them cook the turkey, do whatever they want.
+
+[2:38] It was good, by the way. They didn't horribly overcook it. They brined it, thankfully, which uh, even though I love my man Harold McGee, you know I love my man Harold McGee. He says not to brine the turkey because it makes the drippings too salty. I disagree.
+
+[2:49] I disagree. Because I'd rather not have my breast meat be horribly mangled and overcooked. Right? Yes? Anyway, bubble.
+
+[2:56] Uh you know what? Also, uh, like traditional oven roasting, it does make a delicious crispy skin, which is hard to emulate using the other techniques. I mean, my exoskeleton technique, I was able to get a crispy skin, but you know, I'm kind of a stickler for such things. But traditional oven and skin is delicious, yeah? Yeah.
+
+[3:11] It's it's Los Bestos. This morning on the subway on 44th Street, there was a funeral for a police officer. How is this? Do you know what they were playing? What?
+
+[3:21] Bagpipes. Oh, uh, all right. So this fallen police officer has nothing at all to do with crispy turkey skin. Has more to do with uh the bagpipes that we were talking about at the end of last week's program, which uh, by the way, I never said we're not played at funerals. Nastasha's opinion is that they're exclusively played at funerals because the next time she saw them play was at a funeral, it reinforces in her completely illogical mind that that means that they're only played at funerals.
+
+[3:49] Go to Scotland. I count the score, Nastasha One, Dave Zero. Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Wait a second. You tell me.
+
+[3:56] You know what else people do the day that they go to a funeral? They pee. Does that mean they only pee for funerals? Listen, you guys gotta learn your logic. This is stuff I'm trained in.
+
+[4:05] Listen, Dave, go to some weddings in the city. Find the find the bagpipes. Look, police officers and firefighters, when they when they are are killed or passed away and they have a function, yes, they have bagpipes at those funerals. And because you are completely uncultured and don't understand the ways of Scotland, right? You assume that that's the only time that it happens.
+
+[4:27] That's all I'm saying. Okay. Look, don't get me started. You know, I took bagpipe lessons. You know what?
+
+[4:34] I like how she messes around with bagpipes. I took bagpipe lessons. I owned a set of bagpipes. I no longer uh, you know, I I didn't really progress because what like you start with a thing called a chanter, and you learn to play on on the chanter, which is you know soft and reasonable, and then you move up to your first set of real pipes. And when I moved up to my first set of real pipes, they weren't a very good set of pipes.
+
+[4:54] Uh you can, you know, they were a cheap set of pipes, so they didn't sound they wouldn't have sounded good even if I was good, which I wasn't. As soon as I start squeezing on the bag and those drones start wailing out, Jen's like, nope, you're done. Jen's my wife. Anyway, uh I hope she hasn't missed this because she'll get mad at me for telling that story. She always she always gets mad at me because she thinks I tell stories that make her seem like an ogre, but really it's just I'm unreasonable and she's a reasonable person.
+
+[5:16] Mm-hmm. Really is how it works, anyway. So don't talk crap about bagpipes. I'm warning you. I will go off.
+
+[5:22] Anyway, uh you know, look, if one of one of you wants to call in and talk crap about the bagpipes, go ahead. Let's see where that, let's see where that gets you. Anyway. Where was I? Delicious turkey skin.
+
+[5:34] So, anyway, so uh when I got back on Sunday and I was having the second Thanksgiving, uh, I had two problems. Once we had a lot a bunch of vegetarians over, so we had to make a vegetarian stuffing. And of course, like i i in my mom's style stuffing, that the prime component is uh sage uh sausage. So we had to substitute that up. But I thought it was a passable substitution, right?
+
+[5:52] I have to admit it was a passable substitution. Nastasha ate it, and she's not she's not even folks making her vegan face. Of course, it wasn't vegan because it was full of eggs and all sorts of other great stuff. Butter. Uh anyway, I thought it was pretty good.
+
+[6:03] But I didn't cook the turkey in uh Thanksgiving fashion, meaning I didn't uh feel a need to cook it whole. So I broke it into uh dark meat, light meat, cooked them at two different temperatures in a Ziploc bag and butter, pulled them out when they were still hot, let the skin dry off so that I could crisp up, threw them in the oven to crisp off the skin after they cooled down. My oven was acting up on me and went I had it set at 600 Fahrenheit and it went down to 400 without me noticing because somehow uh one of the controls had gotten switched off, so I was kind of irritated. And I then had to pull out a blowtorch to to crisp it before I threw it back in for the final crisping. I don't like blowtorch crisping because it tends not to dry out the skin and make it crackly the right way.
+
+[6:39] It just browns it up a little bit, which I find irritating, and also at least torch taste. So I shot the torch through a uh um a Nichrome wire screen to act as uh kind of a flame arrester and also a stink arrester from arresting the stink that comes out of propane when you shoot it onto uh uh turkey skin. But it was pretty good, I thought. I could have taken the uh the dark meat about a degree higher or something like that. I think.
+
+[7:02] I think I could have done it about a degree higher. But the breast meat was delicious. Uh duck meat, I mean the uh dark meat tasted good, it's just what, you know, whatever. What do you eat on Thanksgiving proper, Nastasha? Some overcooked turkey at some friend of a friend's house.
+
+[7:13] Wow, friend of a friend overcooked turkey. Is there anything worse than an overcooked turkey? This is why people think that turkey is bad, because they eat only overcooked turkey. And turkey, everyone's like, man, I just eat it because it's traditional. No, no.
+
+[7:25] Turkey is delicious if you don't overcook it. Turkey is delicious, delicious thing. Okay, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution.
+
+[7:45] They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast. So who's an enthusiast that's not a home cook, by the way? See, after you read this a bunch, you start thinking about it. When you're just reading it, you're not thinking, but then when you read it a bunch of times, you're like, home cook or enthusiast? Like they're at home, but they're not enthusiastic and they're using it anyway.
+
+[8:02] Anyway, whatever. And most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world.
+
+[8:21] By the way, we verified that, as we said before. New Zealand, I think, right? Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries ensorbit tapioca maltodextrin, which allows you to transform fat-based products like olive oil or peanut butter into a powder. Or a paste, actually.
+
+[8:37] I mean peanut butter is already a paste, but you can turn olive oil into a paste. This powder retains the flavor of the original product and dissolves when placed on your tongue, delivering it to your taste buds. Fans of cooking issues at place an order of $35 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of enzorbit to experiment with over the holidays. Holidays, I guess.
+
+[8:54] Yeah, we got some more holidays. Simply use the promo code CI64 when placing your order online at Modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Tapioca Maltodextrin, uh, and Zorbit brand tapioca maltodextrin is an interesting thing. So basically, there's uh like a whole, you know, years of cooks who just say, eh, need some tapioca maltodextrin.
+
+[9:15] And yeah, you know, tapio. I'm like, what are you gonna do with it? And they're like, I'm gonna make the powder. I'm like, don't ask for tapioca maltodextrin. You need ensorbit from National Starch, which is very specific tapioca maltodextrin, which is dextr tapioca maltodextrin is you take tapioca starch and you break it down into smaller pieces, eventually you get down to a place where the starch m uh starch molecules are broken down to something called maltodextrins.
+
+[9:36] Enzorbit is derived from tapioca, but is have very its main purpose in life is not this the turning oils into powders, but it's a a bulking agent. It's extremely light. Like uh, you know, the the a pound of enzorbit is bigger than uh, you know, a pillowcase. It's huge, right? It's really lightweight stuff.
+
+[9:54] So it's a bulking agent. That's what it really does. And starches are interesting because they're a helix, right? A native starch molecule for it's been cooked out as a helix, and the outside of the helix is water-loving, and the inside of the helix, so it'll, you know, you know, water is fine with it. And the inside is uh oil-loving, right?
+
+[10:12] Water hating. And so what happens is you mix um enzorbit with a fat or an oil. That oil gets complexed inside the starch, right, inside the helix, but because it's not glomming on the outside, it retains a lot of its bulk density and it turns out to be a powder. Then as soon as you uh apply water in the form of your mouth, or if you try to make a powder out of something with water in it, which doesn't work, ding ding-ding-ding, right? It immediately dissolves and turns back into almost nothing.
+
+[10:41] So you take a very small amount of maltodextrin, which is relatively tasteless, and you make a powder out of an oil, and then it dissolves into the undermouth. That's how it works. But please don't uh try to make a powder out of an oil by just saying tapioca maltodextrin, because odds are it won't work. There's many, many, many, many tapioca maltodextrins in the world, and most of them won't do that, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[11:04] Yeah. I don't care. That's what she's saying or so. I really I just I just don't care. Uh at least that that's what I'm reading out of this guest.
+
+[11:14] All right. Now, because I'm stupid, uh I didn't have my um I didn't have my thing open. So I'm gonna have to flail around here for a minute while I search for Oh, there it is. Wait, while I search for my questions for the day. And you know, I wouldn't have to search for my questions for the day, people, if you were to call in some questions, right?
+
+[11:32] Mm-hmm. Just saying. Okay. Uh that's awesome. Oh man That's awesome.
+
+[11:37] Okay. So, starting out. There's a caller. Oh, there's a caller? Hey, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[11:44] Oh, great, thank you. Um I have a quick question about getting kind of like a crust on a sour uh beer match. Okay. So I want it to have like a herb crust or some kind of other crust after it's finished cooking. How should I try to do that?
+
+[12:00] Okay. So there's a couple things. Um are you are you gonna use actual uh sous vide in a vacuum bag or are you gonna use low temp like in a Ziploc or something like that? Um I was gonna souvia in a vacuum bag. Okay.
+
+[12:11] Uh you m I mean you you're gonna have to um do it like a test or see what you feel. If if you actually uh put the herb crust on beforehand, you're gonna get uh quite a bit of the penetration of the herb flavor into the meat uh from the procedure itself, right? So the the the question you're gonna have to ask yourself is um you know, uh d do you want that much herb into the surface of the meat? And if you do, fine. Put it on beforehand.
+
+[12:38] If you don't, don't. Okay. The second thing is how long are you gonna cook it? Um uh in the bag. Yeah.
+
+[12:46] Um, probably about three hours at like fifty-six, fifty-seven. Are you gonna serve it? Yeah. Uh yeah, fifty-six, yeah. Are you gonna serve it the same day?
+
+[12:57] Um, yeah. Okay. So what I would do is is uh as soon as you pull the meat out of the circulator, right? I would cut the bag open, put the thing on a rack, and start the outside to dry off a little bit. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:13] Uh and let let it let it dry off a little bit and maybe even pat tall it pat it, and maybe even take a hairdryer, dry off the outside to to get some of the uh like the tacky moisture off the outside, then rebrush with oil or whatever you got, right? Uh and and then uh yeah, me like I would deep fry it. That's me. Because nothing's like, I'm gonna tell you, I I can't tell you. I have done bunches of racks of uh lamb, goat, whatever, and uh you throw that sucker in the deep fryer after it comes out of the bag if you let it dry off properly, and it's it's good business because it just puts an instant crust all the way around everything.
+
+[13:48] There's no kind of there's no problems with it at all. Do you know what I mean? It's just yeah, it's a good technique. So if you can deep fry it, deep fry it. Uh um, I don't have a deep fryer, but I I do have range or I probably have an induction burner that I could use to how many how many portions you make in?
+
+[14:05] Uh eighty. Ooh, yeah. You're gonna have a problem up because the problem is if you're doing eighty portions, um, you're going to um if you're doing eighty portions, you're gonna have an issue with um the oil getting really crappy if it's on a range 'cause it's just gonna keep going up and down and up and down and up and down. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[14:25] Uh I mean I could set up like two or three hotel pans. Yeah. I mean uh I i is it a good oven or like a really hot oven? Probably yeah, I I can probably get pretty good broiler if I I'm in a broiler. I mean in in that case I might use a different thing from what I just said.
+
+[14:43] I might leave them in the bag, let 'em cool down, uh, pull 'em out, dry them really thoroughly, then maybe like hair dry them, put them on racks, uh like over the top of a roaster, uh, and then just throw them into a s like let them basically cool down, way down. You know what I mean? Throw them into a screaming oven. But I I don't like I don't you know if the problem is if they're too down in a pan or if they're like sitting in a butt with a bunch of potatoes, you get a bunch of blonde spots around where they are. So I you know put on a rack to keep it up so that the air can get all around them in a screaming hot oven.
+
+[15:16] And then uh all you're doing is looking for a nice crust formation on it. And then you can pull it and you won't have radically overcooked the inside and some of your people might like it even more because it's gonna have more of a traditional texture on the outside. It's gonna have more of that like overcooked zone. So I you know, in general I call that technique sous vide for insurance, and by that I mean you've you've insured that the center of the meat is cooked properly and then you just focused on crust formation, and as soon as the thing is brown on the outside and crusty p you pull it and the inside's gonna be good. Great.
+
+[15:48] Um have a can I pre-sear it before I put it in the bag? I will. I mean, I almost always do. I don't know uh 'cause I think it's gonna speed up crust formation afterwards. Um but you know, I've run some tests.
+
+[15:59] Uh we run tests every time I teach a sous-view class, and typically the crust formation is marginally better in the one that's seared before and after, but I mean don't salt it beforehand before you cook it. You know what I mean? Um because that you know uh that's gonna um make it kind of cured. I think uh the searing beforehand, um I like it, but I mean it's a matter of personal personal taste. I I haven't done I know that it does speed the browning on the second sear, but I don't know by how much.
+
+[16:33] Do you know what I mean? Yep. Um speaking of salting, I was thinking about maybe trying to phosphate brine with it. Would that be a horrible idea? Or uh I mean the thing is is is it's gonna f you it'll hold more water that way, but you you're gonna go sous vide, so you're not gonna overcook it.
+
+[16:51] You have no reason to inject more water into it. Okay, and it's gonna firm up the meat as well as it's gonna firm it as well as uh increase water. So since you're going through the trouble of sous-viding it, I wouldn't uh I wouldn't phosphate it up. Okay. Great.
+
+[17:07] Well that was really helpful. Hey, uh good luck. Let's know how it goes. All right, thank you. All right, back.
+
+[17:13] Okay. Uh Teddy uh Teddy DeVico writes in, and his uh his blog spot dot blog is teen teen chef Teddy. But he's been writing it for a couple years. I wonder whether he's still a teenager. Yeah.
+
+[17:23] He has to change his uh he has to change his blog then. Anyway. Uh hey Dave and Nastasha, don't ask Satasha, she doesn't care about your problems, Teddy. Just me. Just kidding.
+
+[17:33] You know, you're not. Well, you're saying you don't care about his problems? Is that what you're saying? Okay, all right. I need help making sweet potato fries.
+
+[17:40] No matter what I do, blanch fry fry or just fry fry, the fries get too much color before they get crispy. I know this happens because of sweet potatoes, high sugar and moisture content, but I cannot figure out how to get around this predicament. Maybe a soak in acidulated uh solution uh first, then roast, then fry fry technique would work. What are your thoughts then for the help? Well, it's a true story, uh Teddy.
+
+[18:02] It's uh sweet potato fries, uh they get too much color to them, right? So there are a number of things that are done uh because basically because of uh thing called reducing reducing sugars in there that even more than the regular sugar which causes browning, the reducing sugars in it cause browning. Um, you know, which is i.e. not sucrose, but the you know, invert in it. Uh so uh there's been a couple of studies based on trying to get the sugar, total sugar content of the uh at least of the surface of the potatoes down somewhat.
+
+[18:32] And uh there's a study that was done where potatoes were soaked uh by themselves, you know, just in water versus in uh salt versus in um in uh my brain uh ascorbic acid, which is I think what you're thinking about to stop the browning from taking place, enzymatic browning from taking Whoa, something just flew into my mouth. Ouch. Um, right? Uh versus citric acid versus uh acetic acid vinegar. Interestingly, uh the most sugar was leached out of the um potatoes by soaking them in a dilute.
+
+[19:08] Excuse me. That bug really did me wrong, and that flew right in my mouth by uh soaking in um dilute vinegar. Um, right? So here's what I would do. Then a second way to get the sugars out is by blanching.
+
+[19:20] So I would soak these suckers, these potatoes is what I mean, in uh a vinegar solution after they've been cut for uh uh you know, weak vinegar solution for a couple of hours. I would throw salt in too, but just because salt is delicious. Uh and it also helps with uh with uh color problems in French fries, but I don't know why or how. Then um I would pull them out of that. Then uh actually, you know what, you might not want to put the salt because it might reduce the amount of sugars that are pulled out.
+
+[19:46] Yeah, interesting question. Don't know, I'll have to look at it. Uh then I would blanch them in water, uh, and that's gonna leach out even more sugar. Uh, and then uh I would go through the um two-step frying process. One at a lower temperature to do your cook through and to form the crust, pull it out, let it cool down.
+
+[20:05] Bugs in my throat, and then after that I would uh do the final fry to crisp it up. But you do have a tough road to hoe. I was looking this up, actually, and uh there's an interesting problem where someone was making potato chips and they did something completely counterintuitive. Uh they were trying to minimize uh oil uh into the potato chip, which is a horrible idea because oil is delicious in a potato chip, necessary and delicious. But they check this out.
+
+[20:33] They took the potato after they they had uh blanched it and dried it, you know, uh just dried it like in a on an oven or dehydrator, and they threw it into a sugar solution, sugar solution, like strong, like 23% sugar by weight, and uh two sec for two seconds, and then immediately they let it drain for three seconds and immediately fried it. And they said that it was good. They said that it actually uh they said it absorbed less oil, which I don't know why I'm interested in that. But uh the fact that it didn't brown appreciably or didn't scorch in the fryer when they were making potato chips is very interesting to me. The other way, by the way, and I doubt you have access to this because very few people do, to uh decrease the color is to decrease the frying temperature of the oil.
+
+[21:15] Uh, but the only way to do that is to what? He's 15, Teddy. Was or is, and he's a Taurus. What does that mean? I don't know.
+
+[21:25] When is Taurus? April. It's like me and your wife. Oh. Well, my wife, I think, changed because they changed all the zodiacs.
+
+[21:34] I did not change, I'm still Aries. Anyway, Aries. So, um. Okay. So uh, as I was saying before, I was interrupted by this astrological uh thing.
+
+[21:44] The uh for Teddy. Alright, alright. Um, so uh vacuum frying is the other way to go. So you can reduce the uh temperature at which the o at which you can set the oil by reducing the pressure, thereby allowing water to boil up. Because water boiling out of uh of your product is what stops the oil from penetrating, right?
+
+[22:02] And and and things don't get crispy until the water is left, right? So you can uh reduce the temperature at which that happens by putting everything under a vacuum. Problem with that is is you need some hardcore equipment, and the other problem with it is is that what typically what happens is is you fry the thing under a vacuum, you then uh let the air back in, and whammo, all the oil is injected into the porous section of the fries, and so you get really greasy, soggy fries. So this happens with potato chips, although it's not as big a deal in potato chips, but it happens in French fries all the time, and you're worried about French fries, which is why vacuum frying can be difficult, other than the fact that it's very hard to do. Like the morons that do vacuum I excuse me, I didn't mean that.
+
+[22:42] The what's the word for moron that's friendly? Ninkam poop. Ninckam poop. The nincam poops that make kind of the uh consumer level vacuum frying situation didn't put a coal trap in between the fryer and the vacuum pump. So there's no possible way on God's earth that it can actually work as a vacuum fryer because it can't possibly recondense the liquid that it that it spews off.
+
+[23:03] Uh so the only way around that is to either use a cold trap or to use an aspirator pump that uh can reduce the pressure uh even when there's water vapor coming out of it all the time. Problem with an aspirator pump is is that if you make a lot of water vapor like you would when you're frying, think of the steam that comes out of a fryer. You're uh you're you're gonna you're gonna it's gonna start sucking wind and it's gonna get up to atmospheric pretty quickly. Anyway, but here's here's my question, Nastasha. And this is to you since you're the only one that's uh here, even if you know, only in body.
+
+[23:32] Uh the uh uh why don't they do this? Why don't they uh towards the end of the frying time ramp the temperature up and at the same time release the vacuum slowly so that there's always water boiling out of it until they reach atmospheric. Then they should be able to get most of the benefit of vacuum frying. Most of the frying will take place at a lower temperature, right? But uh uh, you know, at the end, when they're pulling it out of the oil, it's an atmospheric.
+
+[24:01] And so it's not gonna get that injection. What do you think? Yeah. Sounds good, right? But I would n no one in the literature has tried uh something like that.
+
+[24:07] I wonder whether there's a technical problem that makes it impossible. Uh anyway, apparently Nastasha's just slapped her watch, uh, which means that we are going to our first commercial break. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. I can think of younger days.
+
+[25:07] Everything a man could want to do I couldn't ever see more told how about the side can you a broken heart? How can you stop the rain? Oh, Al Green, welcome back to Cooking Issues. So the reason we played uh that song from Al Green is one of the questions I got anonymous was, Dave, what is a cure for a broken heart? And I thought that uh the Reverend Al Green, although he provides actually no solutions.
+
+[26:11] If you actually listen to the song, he provides no solutions. But they were taught maybe they didn't finish the sentence and it's like a broken or heart. He's like, how well how can you mend a broken heart? And the related question, how can a loser ever win? Mm-hmm.
+
+[26:24] Right. These are kind of related questions that Al Green asked. Maybe they were asking how to put together a broken heart of an animal that they were. Well, that's what I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to assume. Look, I'm not an expert in mending broken hearts, but I am an expert in cooking hearts.
+
+[26:40] So I think I'll I'll shift it to the related question of Dave, how do you cook how do you cook hearts? Or why do you cook hearts? What do you mean weak? First of all, the heart is an extremely underappreciated uh culinary. I had amazing heart at my aelino.
+
+[26:53] Did you have it that day? No. What kind of heart? Pig heart. Yeah, pig heart is good.
+
+[26:58] With peppers and onions. Peppa peppers and onions. Peppers. Peppers. Sausage and pep and hearts.
+
+[27:05] Anyway, uh so uh it was good? So good. How do they make it every single day? I don't know. Was it was it was it uh all moist or was there some crunchy?
+
+[27:15] No, all moist. Almost, yeah. So that's a you know good way to cook heart. Hearts are delicious because they're uh and and for all you freaks who don't like fat, uh you're probably not listening to my show. But if you are, uh, you know, uh very, very lean and very kind of like it's got that really that kind of bloody taste, but without being kind of so bloody the way that like sometimes I like blood sausage, but some people don't like it because of the extreme bloody bloody flavor of it.
+
+[27:37] You know what I'm talking about? My you know what my personal favorite heart is? Chicken hearts. I love 'em. Chicken hearts.
+
+[27:42] You know, they're so delicious and yet like chicken hearted means like crappy. Like why would you why would you I mean they're so delicious? Chicken hearts. You like chicken hearts? I don't know if I've had it.
+
+[27:53] Oh my god. Duck heart's delicious, right? So good. Yeah, chicken heart is like slightly smaller than a duck heart, uh, which means uh I don't know, that they're slightly smaller, you can eat more of them. I look, I I love duck hearts, but I grew up eating chicken hearts.
+
+[28:09] Uh, and my favorite way is to is to see, you know, a giant skewer full of chicken hearts, god knows how you know. You know, think if you if I can get a skewer of chicken hearts, that means there's that many fools out there not eating the hearts of their chicken that they're eating all of those breasts and legs and not eating the heart. Um anyway, I just like it simply like roasted and then uh, you know, with like some chimicherry sauce or something. Stuff's just so good, chicken hearts. Anyway, uh you know what I we haven't done a lot of experiment with low temp hearts.
+
+[28:39] I mean, I've done it a couple times at home, but not enough to report. Mm-hmm. Hearts. Anyway, can't mend them, can cook them. Uh you know, but whoever's out there with a broken heart, time heals all wounds, mainly because you die at the end.
+
+[28:52] So you know, in other words, like that's what makes it tautologically true. Tautologically. Yeah, it's like it's like uh it's always true. It can't it can't be any other because uh we all have a finite existence, so it's always over at some point. Oh, heavy, heavy subjects here.
+
+[29:08] Wait, can you just comment on indie Jesus today? I I'm not what the show is not the indie Jesus show. We're talking about the uh the waiter here who is still looking like Jesus, came up and someone must have told him. I know he's not a listener, someone told him that we did it because he gave Nastasha the stink eye, but most people give Nastasha the stink eye because she throws off the I hate you vibe. He g he gives most people the stink eye.
+
+[29:29] Oh, really? Really? It's not us. So how the heck is he Jesus like if he throws a stink eye? Jesus doesn't throw a stink eye.
+
+[29:36] He needs to work on that. It ruins the look. Yeah. Anyway. Okay.
+
+[29:41] Uh uh follow up from Aaron. Hi, Nastasha and Dave. Uh we called in last week. Uh when I said I was still loving the show, I didn't mean to say I thought the show would turn to crap. I was just saying.
+
+[29:51] Um you answered a question of mine before with Harold McGee at that time. Uh I was blown away that I was able to get expert advice so easily, mainly from McGee, I assume, if he means it's expert advice. Uh and uh so anyway, so uh the question that was asked last week, uh I think last week or week before was on plating. And by the way, thanks for nothing for all you people giving advices to it, you know, for for plating, because we got zero responses on that, right? Anyway, uh the local library his local library is uh pretty well stocked with cookbooks, so you can get ideas there.
+
+[30:19] And he liked the response regarding uh thinking about the visual aspect slightly earlier during the preparation of the food. Uh I think the first time I think of the visual aspect is uh I put food on the plate. So it definitely should shift to earlier. I will definitely look at learning specific techniques such as canelling, and uh ultimately uh Aaron hopes uh that the standard way to get really good at plating is to turn out hundreds of plates of food under the guidance of a chef who has the expertise. Yeah, but it requires you work in a professional kitchen to do that, which is kind of a pain in the pain in the patoot.
+
+[30:45] Mm-hmm. Right? I can say Patoon on this, right? Yeah, anyway. Uh thanks for the follow-up, Aaron.
+
+[30:51] Uh okay, here's one for you. Howdy Dave and Nastasha, my 11-year-old daughter Sarabeth loves your podcast. I didn't realize we were a family show. I like that. Now we have to watch what we say.
+
+[31:01] Well, mean you. You're the only one that's dropped curses on this station. You talked about vaginal uh listen to yourself. Yeah. Listen to yourself.
+
+[31:08] First of all, I was talking about Lysol, which was an historical reference, and not anything to do with anything, and you just pulled it out apropos of nothing. Uh Jack, you know, can go over the thing, but I believe Nastasha's the only one that's ever cursed on this program. I've I've cursed. Oh, all right. Well.
+
+[31:23] I haven't, which is strange. Chris Young has too. He cursed? Really? Yes.
+
+[31:29] Oh, you potty mouth people. My 11-year old granddaughter uh granddaughter, my 11-year old daughter Sarah Beth loves your podcast. She wants to be a chef and go to culinary school someday. We listen to you all on the way to swim practice and back. Nice swim practice.
+
+[31:41] I wish I knew how to swim. You know how to swim. No, I I don't. Then the more I try to swim, it's like it's like uh you'd think, because I'm not exactly the leanest guy in the world, you'd think that I would float like uh easily, but the more I try and tread water, I I somehow corkscrew myself into the water. And actually, the more I try to tread, the faster I sink.
+
+[32:04] I mean, if you throw me overboard, I you know, I can I won't die right away. But uh, you know, I wouldn't call myself a swimmer. Anyway, my wife makes fun of me about it constantly. Uh, anyhow, uh Sarah Beth is doing her science fair pro now. You swallowed the bug.
+
+[32:20] No, I'm just sick. Thanks. Thanks for coughing on me with the sickness. Uh she's doing her science fair project called Make Mine Medium Rare, Heat Conduction and Steak. It's all about determining cooking time for beef steaks to get to medium rare, uh, medium and well done for various thicknesses of steaks.
+
+[32:35] Now, listen, you put numbers here, which are the normal numbers for uh rareness, i.e., medium rare is 145 degrees, medium 155, and well done, 170. Let me just say right off the bat, these numbers are like crazy wrong, crazy high. For me, medium rare is not a 145. Wait. I can't do my I can't do my math in my head anymore.
+
+[33:01] It's crazy. 57 is 135. So for me, medium rare is more like uh 135 Fahrenheit in that range. Uh and all of the temperatures that people register are typically above it, and I don't know why. But if you served me a hundred and forty five degree steak, medium rare, I'd be like, nah, not so much medium, right?
+
+[33:20] Okay. Uh, we are trying to find out what uh the relationship is between thickness of stakes and the cooking time to hit those temperatures, all other things held constant. We will be using three bonus cuts of meat one inch, one point five inches, and two inches thick. The bibliography uh reference for the experiment is from Harold McGee's The Curious Cook, pages 33 through 34. Excellent book, out of print, unfortunately.
+
+[33:41] I keep telling him to bring it back or give you know, put it on the web or some other kind of crud. Uh so here's our question. Uh, we are trying to decide the best way to cook the steaks to keep the only variable in the experiment the thickness of the steaks. There are two suggested ways to cook the meat boiling them in water or cooking them in a 300 degree oven. Which would be the best method to uh to use to control the temperature that the meat is cooked in to keep exactly the same for all three cuts of meat.
+
+[34:03] We don't have sous vide equipment or anything. We do have a gas range, convection electric oven, and pots to boil in, and a sixth grade science fair budget. Thank you for the great podcast. Okay. So sixth grade.
+
+[34:13] So here's here, okay. Here's the issue. A couple issues. Let's go into it. One, um, the relationship between thickness and to really get the relationship between thickness and how long it's going to take to get to a particular temperature when you're cooking at a particular temperature, uh, involves uh doing some differential equations, which is, you know, hey, look you, you know, when I was growing up, that was well beyond what they taught a sixth grader.
+
+[34:38] Who knows what they teach a sixth grader nowadays? Anyway, you need to know some differential equations for that to actually calculate it. Um, and then it's done uh basically comp you know you know on a computer that just does the iterations of and does it and find solutions for it. Um but roughly and and the shape of the meat that you use radically changes uh the amount of time it takes to uh for something to get up to temperature. So most things are modeled as either one of three things or something in between.
+
+[35:08] And those three things are flat slab, which is like a steak, right? Or uh cylinder, which is like when uh when you make like a roulade, or a sphere, which you know does a sphere, right? Now, uh, luckily for you, right? Uh, if well, I should say luckily for you, I don't know if you have an iPad. If you have an iPad or an iPod, right?
+
+[35:30] Uh, there's someone that wrote a uh there's someone who wrote an application uh called Su Vash. Now it's five bucks. All right. And I have you know, this is how much I love the listeners here. I spent my own five bucks and I bought the application to look at it, right?
+
+[35:46] And Nastasha, you know that like getting five dollars out of me is like squeezing water out of a rock. You know what I mean? And even Moses had trouble with that. You know, Moses, right? Moses the Moses, right?
+
+[35:57] The first time God's like, strike the rock, and and he's because the Israelites are thirsty, right? Should I do this in like uh Jersey, Jersey Bible? Well, in a minute. So he so he strikes the rock, and then later on, got like like you know, years and years, years, years later, the Israelites are thirsty again, they've been wandering around for 40 years, blah blah blah. God's like, hey Moses, go to the rock, talk to the rock, and water's gonna come out of the rock.
+
+[36:20] So Moses walks up, he's like, last time I had to hit the freaking rock to get the water out. I had to hit it to get the water out. I'm gonna hit it again. Hits the rock. God's like, oh, oh, hitting the rock.
+
+[36:36] I said, talk to the rock. And so uh, you know, Moses is like, hey, you know, well, I thought, you know, if I'm gonna talk to it, I might as well punch it, hit it with a stick. It's gonna be better. It's like, hey, Moses, don't think. I said talk to the rock, and that's the reason he didn't get uh to lead the uh Israelites into the promised land.
+
+[36:53] How messed up is that? I like how he covered Jesus and Moses on the show. Hey, hey, hey, we're equal opportunity, old and new testament. We'll bring it. That's from Dave Arnold's Jersey Bible.
+
+[37:03] Uh so the uh uh stupid. Okay, so um, but you can download uh for five bucks, you can download uh the Sue V dash, and what it does is it actually plots on a graph. Uh you put the type of meat you're using, and the reason the type of meat that you use is important is because different fat level different meats have basically different uh uh specific heats, how how like how hard it is to heat them up to a different temperature, and also probably different uh rates of thermal conduction through them based on fat and all these other things. So you want to um you want you know to enter the meat, right? Then you can enter the shape of it, uh, which is uh, you know, usually like some form of a flat slab or a a s or a cylinder or a sphere.
+
+[37:49] Uh and uh and then and the other cool thing is this program can customize all this stuff. So there's there's a there's a a coefficient that's basically a shape coefficient that that changes the equations based on uh what the shape of the thing is, and uh a pure flat plane is uh is uh the coefficient is zero for a you know pure cylinder, infinitely long cylinder, coefficient one, and for a sphere, coefficient is two. Uh but uh in reality, right, the equations really only modeled for these kind of pure things, but in reality what they do is they're like, well, an egg is not quite as you know, it's not quite a sphere, it's more like you know, a cylind sphere. And so they're like, instead of it being a two, right, it's got a coefficient of one point eight. But the cool thing about this program is it allows you to dork with uh if you go to the expert level, you can dork around with the coefficients, and you can see how changing that coefficient changes the rate at which things heat.
+
+[38:44] But not to spoil it for you or anything, but the um if you double the size of a flat slabs we're talking now, infinite flat slabs, big steak. Uh if you double the thickness, the amount of time it takes to get it to temperature will be roughly four times greater. Every time you double it, it goes up by a factor of four because it goes by the square. I think they're asking how they should cook it. I'm gonna get to that.
+
+[39:06] I'm being thorough. Um geez. So uh here's the other here's the other bad news about it, though, is that uh in terms of the way the meat looks, and and when I say that, the way that the myoglobe and the proteins in it are going to get denatured, uh, which is what provides a lot of the color in the meat, it the way it gets uh denatured is radically dependent on how long it takes to cook the product. So what I would run a couple of different tests. Ovens aren't so good because um the size of the piece of meat in it, uh not just the thickness, but the size on how much moisture is coming off is going to affect the temperature, uh, how quick the surface can dry out because you're in a dry oven.
+
+[39:45] I mean, it's just the oven's kind of inaccurate. Boiling is unfortunately so kind of hardcore. I mean, you can do it, right? I would recommend getting this application to dork around with the different um the different factors to kind of look at them. Um but then I would I would go boiling water.
+
+[40:02] Uh, you know, if you want to try some lower temp stuff just as a test, you can do what I've said before, which is you can run uh uh hot water out of your tap, which is you know, depends on your tap, might be hot enough to cook a steak. Not up, you're probably not gonna be up to well done. But um you can do the other thing you can do is get a cooler and uh do some uh tests that way. But the only way to do a real scientific experiment where everything is kept constant is to have something in a rolling boil. And uh you know, uh if you're gonna use boiling water, that is a rolling boil.
+
+[40:36] And what that means is is you're not gonna want to uh put a big piece of meat in because if you put a big piece of meat in, you're going to um if you put a big piece of meat in, you're going to uh drop the temperature of the water locally to the meat. The other problem you're gonna have is you're gonna want to try to keep the meat so that it's uh even thickness all the way around, which is gonna be difficult for you because uh it's just gonna be difficult because the meat's gonna be moving around in the water. So and but it's gonna be extremely hard for you to do anything else, like bolt it between two plates with with you know thumb screws so you can get the thickness exactly the way you want. I mean, you could do that. I've done it.
+
+[41:13] It's dumb. I've done it, you know what I mean? But it is a pain in the butt. Uh you're you're gonna want to try to keep the thickness as accurate as possible because it is gonna make a big uh a big difference. So or if they're in the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area, they can borrow my circulator.
+
+[41:28] I hear that. Yeah, that's a good offer. Uh but here's the other things you're gonna have to deal with is the how you're gonna measure the temperature on the inside, or you're just gonna do it by visual inspection, right? Um visual inspection, meh, meh, meh. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:42] Uh but on the other hand, temperature, meh, meh. You know what I mean? There's it's not so bueno. You know what I mean? Now, uh assuming that you're gonna be into this stuff, you can get uh digital thermometers now pretty cheap.
+
+[41:55] But an easy way to do it is to get like a multimeter that has a uh thermocoupled thing, and then you can get very fine thermocouples. They're down to like I think you can get like a thermocouple for like sixty bucks, and you can get a multimeter that'll read it on Amazon for like uh or even just a thermometer for another like 30 or 40. Uh so I mean that's a hundred bucks. I don't know whether you want to go that far, but your average instant read thermometer it has a bunch of problems. It's too big.
+
+[42:18] It uh it's not very fast and also it has a high enough thermal mass in itself to drop the temperature that you're reading. So it can be problematic. Um I being helpful at all you're like not really you're not really helping her at all in our project. I gave her the name of the program to look at nostas yeah all right all right all right well listen uh if you have more questions uh come back there's nothing I love better than a science fair I used to like I don't know whether you you could probably guess this I had some butt kicking science fair stuff my dad's uh double E electrical engineer and he used to help me out on my science fair projects and one time he helped me calculate um uh like a bunch of a mirror array to get them all focused on the same point and he was showing me how parabolas work and all that and so we built a big mirror array that focused a hundred mirrors I found this mirror shop that uh gave me stuff that for almost nothing I was like but they don't need to be high quality I'm a little kid and I don't have any money. So like take these mirrors they're almost free.
+
+[43:18] And uh and I glued the mirrors like uh and then we were like you know lighting stuff on fire. So some other kid was coming with like with their little hot with their little parabolic reflect reflector hot dog oven and I walk in with like you know a four foot by four foot array of uh a hundred mirrors uh like four by four inch mirrors uh and with instantly light paper on fire stuff was awesome anyway I love a science fair so if you have any uh questions please write back and we'll address them. Yes? Sort of yeah sort of what is it that you want me to say that I didn't say? Nothing.
+
+[43:46] Just write back and let us know how deep it is. Yeah, jeez. Yeah. And look, uh, I'm not endorsing the program. In fact, it has some issues.
+
+[43:54] Like, for instance the the program CV dash, when you look at it, like if I change it from chicken to beef, it changes all my other settings. I was like, listen, I put the other settings where I want them. Why would you change it? Just because I changed it from chicken to beef. Come on.
+
+[44:08] Soogie dash. All right. Another good place to look for that. If you can do the differential equations uh for her, or like I say, if she's incredibly precocious, Douglas Baldwin has a uh an explanation of how the equations work on his website about Sue V. Okay.
+
+[44:24] Hey Dave. Nice. This is Ryan Santos. What's the best way to cook a goose sous vide? Uh looking to cook the legs to a comfy like Dunnness.
+
+[44:31] Imagine two different times and tents, but not sure what those are. Uh okay. So, yeah, with the with the goose, I break it apart. I'd uh, you know what you could do actually. I don't know if this would work or not, but I wonder whether you could roast the goose so that it looks awesome and then just not serve the legs.
+
+[44:47] Cut the legs off and then confide them separately. I don't know. I would cook goose like I cook a duck, which means uh 57 uh degrees is my go-to. And if it's a little tough, not for for no the breasts I'm talking, once you remove the breasts, cook them at 57 for no longer than an hour. Uh and you know, if if they're a little tough, you can do like 58.
+
+[45:11] Let them cool down, uh, hit with the dog brush a la uh modernist cuisine and then sear off the goose to render out some of the uh the fat, make it crispy and delicious. I would confide the legs uh in uh vacuum, I would salt them overnight uh and err salt and herb them overnight. Uh, you know, get rid of the excess salt, uh, throw them in a bag with their own fat, you know, just with what they are, uh, and cook it at regular simmering temperatures, like 85 and for a couple of hours, you know, until the bone feels free in the uh in the thing, and you'll know it's done. Let them cool down in their own fat. When they're ready to go, pull them out, crisp them up, delicious.
+
+[45:49] Yeah? All right, let's go to our second commercial break. I'm so in love with you. Whatever you want to do. So brand to spend my life with you.
+
+[46:44] Okay. Since we've been together. Love me. Be the one you come on to welcome back to cooking issues. Uh my schedule is totally thrown off today because uh we don't have a clock in the studio.
+
+[47:16] Nice. Anyway. Todd W Oh, let me get the second question uh from uh uh second question from Ryan. Secondly, I want to replicate Wiley, that's why they do frame my brother-in-law's around uh aerated foie gras recipe. I have a food saver and a vacuum box thing, but no chamber vac.
+
+[47:29] I'm curious if I aerate the foie base in a whipper and then in a vacuum box, if that would help get the aeration going. I've had success doing this with ice cream base to aerate the ice cream. Just wanted a second opinion before attempting this with expensive foie. Now I don't have uh his recipe in my head for the aerated foie, but I believe he uses foie fat. And uh you could probably use a substitute for foie fat like duck fat or something harder than that.
+
+[47:51] I forget what it was. I w you know, next time I ask him, I'll I'll uh I see him, I'll ask him, but they didn't test out all those recipes with like boatloads of foie because it would be really expensive. They tested with an alternate cheaper fat. Uh and I forget what it is. Uh I don't think it was butter because it doesn't behave the same way.
+
+[48:07] I think it was uh I think it was duck fat or maybe a mixture of duck fat and butter. But anyway, um the aeration that they get at WD or did, you know, um back when they had this on the menu uh with uh ice cream was like the stuff was so aerated that it was like ancient food cake. So if you can do that, you could probably aerate the foie. Um I would run a test with a cheaper fat just to see whether it bubbles up. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:29] Like do something with do it with duck fat or do it with uh butter to see if it aerates. It won't set uh the same way, but just see if it see if it aerates. Uh let me know. And next time I speak to Wiley, I will ask him what they use as foie substitute when they're testing out recipes so that they don't break the bank. Okay.
+
+[48:47] Uh Todd Bryant writes in. Hey there, I'm traveling abroad to Israel and Turkey. I'd like to go to Turkey. And Israel, but I'd like to go to Turkey. I've done a lot of studies on Turkish uh food stuff and I've had some Turkish interest.
+
+[48:58] Anyway, do you have any tips on how to bring back yummy and rare foodstuffs, meats, cured meats, cheeses, fresh or dried fruits, spices or liquids in my luggage without them being confiscated by the Cretans at Customs. Thanks, folks, Brian. Nastasha, you're a sneak. What do you think? I I don't know.
+
+[49:15] I mean, just stuff it in the bag and don't say anything. Well, that's a helpful freaking tip. I mean, what's he what what do you mean? Well, okay, look. Obviously, vacuum bag anything so the dogs can't sniff it.
+
+[49:28] Yeah. Right? Uh, look unassuming. Yes. It you know, it you know, if you if you're if they're racist, it helps to be uh, you know, like look like me, boring white guy.
+
+[49:41] You know what I mean? That's helpful. Um, sad to say, but true. Um, I don't know, you know, I've brought some evil stuff back in. I haven't done it recently.
+
+[49:53] My sister-in-law brought an entire prosciutto back in her backpack. You know, but I think the dogs are much more hardcore now, and I don't know what the penalties are. Steingarten has an interesting thing about this. He just says what he has, he declares it, and usually they're just too like whatever to look at it. They just look at him and he pretends.
+
+[50:09] Another thing you could do, like with cheeses, is you can just say, hey, they're aged more than 60 days. Oh, yeah. I brought a cat on a plane that was one month old, and I told them it was eight months. And they were like, okay. Yeah.
+
+[50:21] You gotta know the rules and get around it. Look, no one's gonna look if you're going to Turkey, get celeb dun derma. It's not done term, that's the ice cream, but get celebrated the orchid powder. And you know, I don't know, it's not drugs. So you like tell them that it's not, you know, whatever.
+
+[50:34] I never get stopped. Almost never. On once in Germany, and I got hardcore hosed. But uh other than that, I almost never get stopped. Man, I want people write in, see what they think about this.
+
+[50:44] Now listen. Don't bring anything then that actually could cause an echo epidemic. Like, don't bring citrus fruit from someplace to the United States to California, and then you know, totally shaft a billion dollar industry because I don't want to give advice to help that happen. That makes sense. Does that make sense?
+
+[50:59] Anyway. Okay. Uh now, let me see what we got here. Okay. We got a c uh question in from Andrew, uh, who says, uh see, we should post a poll on the blog asking who listens to our show on a specific date, and we can even put options for live listening and potcast, and then that way we can figure out what's going on.
+
+[51:21] What do you think? Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll look into it. But anyway, the main reason he's emailing is that his pressure cooker is broken and it sucks, and so he's looking to buy a new one. I've read on your various posts on pressure cookers and modernist cuisine's chapter on them, and I'm still not totally sure what the best option is.
+
+[51:36] Uh, I know you like Coon Recon, which I do, uh, but modernist cuisine got me worried about the spring indicator becoming inaccurate over time. And there's also the matter of choice between a model with the large thing on top or the little pin. The all American, the all-American pressure canners what we're talking about. Looks good, but he's unsure whether the sterilizer or the normal pressure cooker is the better option. The sterilizer concerns me because the tube from the valve going into it and how long it is, and the manufacturer says it's not to be used as a pressure cooker.
+
+[52:00] What's up, Sus? I'm in the middle of the collar. There's a color. Alright, let me finish reading this and I'll go to the collar. On the other hand, if I was to go to the all-American pressure cooker, how practical and safe is weighing down the weight valvey thing?
+
+[52:09] What I want out of this is the best possible option for both canning and pressure cooking, and cost matters uh in so much as I want only have to buy one thing and what size should I get. Okay, qua I'm gonna answer that in one second. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, David Nastasha, it's Ken Angbert from Situit, Massachusetts. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[52:25] Long time no speak. Long time no speak. How are you? All right. Uh, two things.
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+[52:29] One, I came back from France a couple of weeks ago and uh brought back some foie gras and truffles and had relatively little difficulty, but a friend of mine who brought back more or less the same thing, but also brought back a sausage. Uh the dogs were all over the uh sausage and then the customs people opened up everything and if I looked into it a little bit and it turns out that there's no uniformity. It's uh very much discretion at the airport so rules in one place will have no bearing on anywhere else. And you're coming into Logan? Uh I was coming it well actually it turned out we were both coming into Logan although they were moving on.
+
+[53:05] Right. Is Logan still pretty hardcore? Uh well I I had to uh assure them that everything was cooked and sealed as if it were in a can and they were skeptical but they let me through but I looked into it around the country. It's uh not uniform at all. Right and I you know I've had an issue actually the only time I've gotten hammered was with a sausage so it's interesting.
+
+[53:24] I mean maybe and I'm assuming the sausage wasn't vacuum packed down so it had probably more residual smell to it. No, it was it was uh from an open air market that you couldn't pass by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean uh obviously minimize stuff that the dogs can smell and know how to talk a good game and be prepared to lose everything, right?
+
+[53:43] Well uh yes and also you need to declare everything. If you if you if they catch you uh you're in trouble. You mean yeah if they yes right so say you're bringing some foodstuffs back but just pretend that it's all legit and then if they catch you with it being illegit you could just say you didn't that this is a misinterpretation, is that what you're saying? Yes, the Steingarden approach sounds right to me. Yeah.
+
+[54:04] Very good. Uh I I have another question though. Alright. Uh it a fairly simple one I think, which is um I you know I I cooked a turkey for Thanksgiving and according to various charts, it should have been in the neighborhood of five hours, and it was done in about two and a quarter. And other people have the same uh same result.
+
+[54:25] And what's going on is is it that the steam from the uh um from the stock underneath is steaming it and just cooking it much much faster? Well, what was the cooking technique? Uh uh roasting um I roasted it like 325. Um, but I poured, you know, uh a couple of quarts of stock into the roasting pan at the bottom. Right.
+
+[54:51] I do that as well to stop from scorching. I don't know if that's going to accelerate it or not. Uh when they the the numbers for how fast it's going to be done was based on open cavity bird. Yeah. Huh.
+
+[55:03] It was it was a nine 19-pound bird, and uh it should have been by charts about five hours or so. But it's all every year it's the same thing. I I don't want to uh I don't I don't I want to time it properly. I wind up using some chart and it's always done two or three hours early. Well those charts are always horrible.
+
+[55:22] They're horrible. They're based on like bad, they're based on you know bad stuff. We should get like one of these guys like Doug Baldwin or something to actually figure it out based on like circumferential measurement of the turkey's breast and then approximate the gap, you know, the internal uh void. Right. Um I wonder whether the stock's gonna make an appreciable difference.
+
+[55:43] I don't know, but I will look into it. Okay. Alrighty? Good enough. Thanks.
+
+[55:47] Take care. Hey, thanks for calling in. All right. Quickly back to Andrew's pressure cooker problem. Uh look, the American pressure canner, uh, I love them, and they're the only way to go for big, big things, and they go up to higher pressures than other things.
+
+[56:00] They can make it up to like a you know 22 PSI, which I don't really think is necessary. But I think they're a pain in the butt because you have to seal a bunch of uh hand knobs all the time to make sure that they're not leaking. They're made out of all aluminum, which means that you have to take care of them when you wash them with detergents, and some people don't like to cook acidic stuff in aluminum or you know, basic stuff in aluminum. Um, so they need protection. Uh they tend to take up more space in the kitchen.
+
+[56:21] Uh I like it because it's very accurate and I can run experiments with it, but for normal cooking, I don't use it. Um the um I would use the I Coon Recon is great. I don't really care. I mean, like the spring, I don't know if it actually loses accuracy over time or not, but the spring is almost free. You can buy a bunch of springs if you're worried about it and replace it.
+
+[56:43] I have the one that has the spring right in the center that goes up and down, and I've used it for you know f you know six years or something like that, and I've never had a problem with it, other than I broke the handle off of it and uh I shattered the plate on the top. Uh and so it's kind of weird looking, but the thing still cooks like a demon. Uh you know, I had to replace the gasket once. Uh I would stay away from uh you know the the models that um vent because I think it uh kind of reduces uh the taste profile. I'll get the biggest one that you can.
+
+[57:12] Another thing is like some people will sell you two pots and then one lid, which you can go back and forth. But I mean I like the Coon Recon. I mean, they don't they don't pay me or anything, but I like them a lot. Uh and I haven't had a problem with them kind of going uh going south on you. I mean I just haven't.
+
+[57:28] Uh there was I I read uh some uh QC problems, quality control problems with Coon Recon for a little while, but I think they have that thing, they have that thing fixed. So I would go for it if you have the money. I've never needed anything else. In fact, when I have to work at work, I bring my home pressure cooker in rather than using the crappy ones that they have there. Just saying.
+
+[57:46] Not saying that they're crappy, the ones that they have at the FCI, I'm just saying that they're crap. Okay. By the way, my son thinks crap is a curse. Yeah, it is when you're young. Whatever.
+
+[57:57] Okay. But not for an 11-year old, we're okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
+
+[57:59] Uh, and we'll round out on this. By the way, he has the best sign off for us ever, which is keep on keep being awesome. You like that? So nice. Anyway.
+
+[58:11] Okay. So, my other questions uh are more about your personal views on subjects, so if you need to sacrifice them for someone else's more tangible questions, that's cool. Well, I won't. I'm gonna end with them instead. I was wondering what your views are on the waste involved with sous vide or low temperature cooking.
+
+[58:24] I often feel guilty about throwing out Ziplocks after only using them for a few hours, and I'm slightly horrified at the thought of what a restaurant that employs the method must go through. A bit hippie ish, but I can't help it. Alright. Uh it is it's look kind of an issue, but on the other hand, I mean you can reuse the Ziplocks. Nobody does, because it's a huge hell mess to uh clean them out and they're all goopy, and if you're gonna save them for a long time, it's a nightmare.
+
+[58:47] I'd have to do a a calculation based on total final usage of materials uh and resources in terms of like the less amount of energy it takes to cook using that way versus an oven, the less you have to evacuate your kitchen because you're using low temperature instead of using uh something that uses it burns up a lot of gas. I'd also have to figure out how much plastic wrap I'd have to use to wrap the stuff afterwards if I wasn't using Tupperwares or something that seals itself. So there's all sorts of things, uh, but it is uh uh something that um I should probably think about more than I do. What do you think, Stuz? Yes.
+
+[59:19] Yeah, she's like, I don't care, you're too late, I'm not gonna give you anything than one-word answers. Only one-word answers for you at this point. Anyway, my other question is what we're gonna end on. My other question is about your views on using MSG in cooking. Many chefs know and actively say that MSG hasn't been found to have any negative effects, yet they will still go out of their way to include MSG-rich foods in their dishes rather than go for the pure stuff.
+
+[59:41] Now I know that in some cases these foods give complimentary flavors, but there are other cases, like Hester Blumenthal using seaweed and a shepherd's pie, where the ingredient is purely for its umami boost. Okay. Alright. It's very interesting question. Look it.
+
+[59:57] I don't use MSG. I just never got in the habit of it. But I do use a lot of MSG stuff, and uh I am one of those people that happens to know because I've read all of the studies and don't use crazy post hoc ergopropter hockey theological stuff. This is a separate question. If you had read the question or even listened to it while I was speaking, you would see it's a separate question.
+
+[1:00:19] The question is, uh, why do chefs not use it even though they know it's safe? And I think there's a couple of reasons. I think mainly it goes to perception. I think uh, you know, when you're a chef and you're cooking something, you have to not only cook to what you think is right, but you have to cook to what your customers think is right, or you're gonna alienate a lot of people. And the high-end people, right?
+
+[1:00:42] Uh there's a whole group of kind of farm to table, like, you know, as you said, hippie-ish people who won't consume MSG on principle, right? And so then to put that in your dish cuts off an entire group of people from uh from using it, right? For from enjoying your food, and it injects a level of controversy into your menu that you might not want to inject in. You know, it's just, you know, unless you unless you're like Dave Chang, who's like, you tell me foie gras bad, so every menu on the every menu item is gonna have foie gras. Shut up.
+
+[1:01:16] Like he does, he can do does stuff like that. He'll make points. But you know, unless your point is to make a point about it, you don't want to alienate someone for something that you can do in some other way. Especially if you haven't grown up using it as a spice, you get around it in other ways. In other words, like there's things that like uh there's things that you believe in that you don't do yourself, or there's things that you're not willing to go to.
+
+[1:02:09] I don't know. Your point, I think, is that maybe they feel a little dirty using it. Even though they say it's okay, that they feel a little dirty doing it. And maybe you're right. It's an interesting question.
+
+[1:02:20] I have to think about it, and you know what I'm gonna do? Gonna go buy myself a package of MSG cooking issues.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Robert is in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from around 12 to 1245 from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Hey Jack, our uh our engineer Jack in the booth as always.
+
+[0:40] My headphones appear to be not working. Ah. Thank you. Joined as usual in the station with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Cooking Issues Hammer and uh usual uh resident meaning. What?
+
+[0:55] The collar our collar called back. Hello, caller. You are on the air. Hi, Dave. Just a quick question about pecans specifically.
+
+[1:03] Um since it's a time of year where you can get uh whole unshelled pecans, I like to get a bunch of you know pecans and other bulk nuts and cracking myself. And bulk nuts. It's either the pecan itself or that reddish stuff. Inside like the pith, sort of right. Something just it's bitter and mouth dry and and just kind of not acidic, but it's really dries out my mouth.
+
+[1:29] What's up with that? Alright, so the skin of nuts like that, and pecans is one, the one I think that's been more studied uh is uh walnuts. The skin, the kind of the silvery this the uh reddish, brownish skin around it, has a lot of uh tannins in it that are gonna dry out your uh mouth and can be bitter. Uh and the same it goes true for a lot of nuts, which is why, for instance, uh when you use hazelnuts, you often uh heat them briefly and then rub the skins off. So you could I mean pecans are kind of a pain.
+
+[1:59] I don't really see a lot of recipes where you're supposed to uh take the skin off of a pecan. Um have you ever seen that in a recipe? I've never seen that in a recipe. No. No.
+
+[2:10] Uh me neither. But the strange thing about uh this phenomenon is that, and I know more about walnuts with this, is that different cultivars of uh walnut will have radically different uh astringency uh and bitterness associated with that skin layer. So every you know it all depends on exactly who you're getting it from, um uh, etc. etc. You could try uh to a hot roast and rub between towels.
+
+[2:37] Any percentage of that skin that you get off of there is going to um decrease that perception. The downside is is that it's not gonna look like a pecan anymore for for you know for what people are are used to doing. If you notice this specifically in a in a person that you're buying bulk from? No, I just usually get um, you know, diamond, diamond or whoever, just in a bulk bag. And when I do the pecans, uh I really notice the bitterness.
+
+[3:05] I don't really notice it so much for the other nuts, oddly enough. Yeah, do you uh not even for walnuts, huh? No well, I mean a little, but pecans like sometimes they just really zing me or whatever. Well, you know, uh a lot like so uh, you know, we used to make a lot, and hopefully we will again, uh pecan oil and pecan butter in uh in the centrifuge, and the bottom layer of that has all of that stuff that you're talking about. The uh uh, you know, because uh this the skin layer settles to the bottom when you're centrifuging it.
+
+[3:37] Uh and so you know that that's one way to to to get rid of it. Do you live in the south? Yeah. I mean, uh what I would do is uh search out a you know, a really like the I looked online once because we were looking into selling nut oils at school a couple years back, and I found a couple of very I can't remember their names, unfortunately, off the top of my head, but a couple of super high uh quality producers, uh, you know, that will give you fresh this year's crop right when they get it, uh, and just I'm sure loads higher than whatever the commercial stuff is. And strangely the prices weren't that bad.
+
+[4:13] You know what I mean? Very cool. Yeah, you might want to look into that, and then the the folks that I spoke to on the phone, uh, were you know, and this is the good thing about dealing with real people, is they actually grew the darn thing. So if you tell them your uh concerns, they can they they could probably steer you the right way. So does age affect it also?
+
+[4:32] Well, uh age, I I don't know about age and um astringency. I mean, obviously nuts as they age get rancid, uh and you know, they they tend to not be as good. I mean, um and that's why you know it's always best to vacuum pack uh you know in cans so you don't crush them too much, but it's always best uh best to vacuum pack um things that are high in oil content. So a lot of nuts when they're commercially uh produced are vacuum packed for that reason, or or nitrogen flushed or any one of a number of things you can do to remove the oxygen so that you don't have uh oxidation problems. So nuts are definitely unstable.
+
+[5:09] I mean, I'm sure you've had um you know, you've had some nuts sitting out for a while and you try to get the they turn stale, obviously, and then you try to uh get the crispness back by uh roasting them for a minute, letting them cool down, and the taste just isn't the same. Uh it's just they've either like gone stale permanently or gone rancid because they have such a high oil content, you know. Yeah very cool do you think this is anything like when you get a funky batch of pine nuts you know you get that pine nut mouth condition oh you know I haven't I haven't researched what that is I think that's probably something uh like very specific and I don't know that might be and I don't know anything about it so I I you know I I hesitate to speculate but uh for instance I'm told that it's a fungal uh problem like a bad pistachio and that those are actually extremely toxic because of high levels of aflatoxin uh that are uh pleasant and anyone that's ever bitten into a bad pistachio knows that it's like one of the most horrible things that could possibly happen to you. So definitely don't eat that. No don't eat that.
+
+[6:11] In fact uh we we used to make a pistachio uh oil and butter uh and what we we you know at the school we would get these uh three pound uh tins of nuts right from a reputable uh person and so uh one time I had an intern make a batch of pistachio butter with it and they just threw the tin into the uh into our grinder and then into our centrifuge and the stuff tasted awful uh then I then uh from then on I said hey look you have to throw all of the pistachios onto a sheet uh big sheet tray and you have to look at them all and we took out all the ones that had yellowed you know with age that weren't green anymore all the ones that look shriveled and the stuff tasted great so you know I know with pistachios they're extremely fragile uh you know and and most suppliers you know if you're buying uh bulk shelled nuts they don't they're not giving you the they're not giving you necessarily a hundred percent of the best, even if they're a reputable manufacturer. It only takes a couple bad nuts to really ruin things. Yeah. Anyway, good luck with that and let us know how it works out for you. Alright, thanks a lot, Dave.
+
+[7:16] Keep bringing the awesome. Thanks. Alrighty, so let me see. Uh I am I'm late as usual, and uh we are being held to our time today because there's a live show coming on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh and so I'm gonna read the promo after the first break.
+
+[7:32] I'm just gonna start going into questions. Okay, Andy writes in, hey Nastasha and Dave, I recently acquired a massive 21-pound free-ranged aged country ham from Nancy Newsome at uh her name's that Nancy Mahaffey actually. From Nancy uh Mahaffey at Colonel Newsome's ham. And uh there's a bunch of cursing about how delicious it is. Holy effing sugar honey iced tea delicious, which it is.
+
+[7:53] I actually happen to like that ham a lot. Had incredible marbling. Uh I want to figure out a way to get the best yield from the ham while eating it over a few months. Uh start into the less meaty side of the ham. Uh less meaty side would be the you know, the they call it the forward top side, I think.
+
+[8:06] Uh serrano style, i.e., uh long the length. But I'm thinking about boning it out and bonding it back together, prosciutto style, and then slicing it across the face of the ham. I practice deboning on a smaller home cured ham, so I think I've got good butchering method, but how does the home cook press and bind it back together? I assume some form of meat glue. Any recommendations for uh which style to use, uh, etc.
+
+[8:26] etc. The bone will leave a big hole. How do I ensure that I can uh press the uh the hole completely shut? Uh as a side note, um this ham is much thicker than either the serrano or the prosciutto, but I can't think of a way that would affect the preparation. Uh first of all, a couple notes.
+
+[8:40] Uh for those of you that don't have uh don't eat American country hams. Uh Colonel Newsom's hams out of uh Kentucky is one of the my favorite producers. They've been producing for a long, long time. Their recipe is several hundred years old. Uh Nancy Mahaffey is the current proprietor and cure master of that place.
+
+[8:56] Uh they have a distinction that they uh only cure one time a year at the traditional time in the winter, uh, and and then the hams are aged however old they are. She sometimes has hams that are over a year old, but in general, you can judge the age of the ham based on how long after the winter it is right now. So the hams that she has left over now are a year old. If you can get them, they're good. Uh another thing is that she has been working with uh Heritage Foods, our parent peoples, uh, to get some high very high quality um uh ham in that has a lot of marbling.
+
+[9:27] So she's been doing that. I think Benton's has been doing that, Benton's hams and uh Edwards hams. And I've had I haven't had Nan I've had a little bit of Nancy's, it was good. I had a lot of uh Edwards one, which was uh excellent. Uh and they're all good because I've said for many years that uh American ham masters, we you know they have the ability to cure, they have the know-how, they're they're you know, they're they're masters at it.
+
+[9:47] Uh but what what has been lacking is the quality of the raw material. And so these people have been joining up with uh folks like Patrick Martins and trying to kind of rectify that and be able to produce a ham that has uh the same kind of quality uh in the meat as the highest end uh European style hams. And and I have to say they are uh they are some incredibly uh delicious things. Um where you say as a side note that that this ham is much thicker than either the serrano or the prosciutto, it really does affect the preparation, has a lot to do with the way American hams are hung. American hams typically were designed, uh even the you know the country cured ones to be uh eaten in slices and then uh briefly cooked or cooked and then sliced.
+
+[10:26] Uh and so they want them to be a little wetter than you would on your average European ham. They're hung uh in the opposite direction from a normal uh European ham, and they're not squished flat. And so they have the cushion, that big part of the meat, the cushion area, is uh a lot thicker than it would be in um in a European ham. And what that means is is that you're gonna have uh a wetter center typically on that, and so it's gonna be more difficult to get a perfect slice out of an American-style ham that way than it would be to get out of a European ham. And you're also, because of the way American hams are hung uh and and aged, you're gonna get more of a variation in salt level and uh density uh and water uh level between the outside of the meat, especially towards the uh face, towards where it was cut off of the animal where there's no skin, and the center of the cushion where it's gonna be the softest.
+
+[11:14] So it does affect preparation. Um it's not better, it's not worse, but it it does affect it. Now, on to your real uh question here, which is uh how do I uh well, you already have a boning technique. The best way is to go uh F Dick Cutlery makes a uh what looks like a long gouge that you can use, uh like a tunnel boning thing that you can get in, and that's what uh a lot of the people use uh to get the bones out uh effectively. I have to say that boning a prosciutto and a country ham is the only time in my life I've ever broken a knife, at least that I've ever broken it when it wasn't breaking it on purpose.
+
+[11:46] So it, you know, they are difficult to bone depending on how uh old they are, right? Younger one, like seven, eight month-old, not gonna be a problem, but year uh year and a half, it can become uh uh kind of a nightmare to bone out and keep in one piece. Assuming you have a good technique to bone out the take the bone out, you're gonna have a hole in the center. And even the professionals here, when they bone it, are not going to uh take be able to squish that hole flat. And the reason is uh it takes an immense amount of pressure uh to do that.
+
+[12:13] So in uh prosciutto de Parma, what they'll do is they'll they'll age it bone in, like like God wants you to. They'll remove the bone and then they'll put it into a ham mold. And the ham mold has uh uh a water cooling because otherwise the ham would heat up too much and it would affect the uh flavor of the ham. And they put it under immense pressure inside of a metal mold that's you know very well cooled in order to compress it into that ham shape, exclude any oxygen or anything else from the inside of that uh gap. Uh, I don't think you're gonna be able to do that.
+
+[12:47] Uh I just don't think it's possible. Another problem with with enclosing that hole is you could be sealing uh something and you might want to let it dry out a little more in there, especially on an American ham that can be a little wetter on the inside uh than uh European ham. You're also gonna want to make sure you cut off any kind of bad areas or taint around that. Now, if you wanted to try, I mean I mean I encourage you to try and tell me what happens. Yes, you could sprinkle some meat glue in that thing, put it uh between uh two plates on a hydraulic press and uh and press it flat.
+
+[13:17] I don't know what kind of results you're gonna have. It's not typically something you you would do. And I just might make this suggestion is that because American hams weren't necessarily cured in order to slice in one whole piece, I would remove the section below the bone, and then you just have the section above the bone that you can slice as its own. It's gonna have a little like kind of semicircle mark in it, but that's okay. And then the bottom piece, which is a lot tougher anyway, uh, is going to uh you know, maybe be served as a separate uh separate preparation.
+
+[13:45] Anyway, my thoughts. What do you think, Stas? Uh that sounds good. Do you want to take a break? It's 24.
+
+[13:51] I don't know. Do I want to take a break? You just want to go all the way through? I'll take one more and then I'll do a break. Uh okay.
+
+[13:57] Uh I don't I don't I don't have the person's name, it's unfortunate, but it's another faithful faithful listener from iTunes uh and also a big fan of Heritage Radio in general. Big shout out to Heritage Radio. Uh I have three brining questions. Is there a rule of uh thumb for the brine to uh brine strength to soak time? I'm looking for a general brine I can customize to accommodate the amount of time I have to brine.
+
+[14:14] Some days I can do an overnight, some days I want to do an hour soak. Does the addition of herbs or other flavors in a brine come through in the end product? I see many recipes for complex brines with multiple flavor additions. Is this just showing off? And is there a brine concentration that could reduce the risk of salmonella or other bugs?
+
+[14:31] I refrigerate and cook properly, but I'm curious. Thanks. Okay. Uh I am embarrassed to say this is a subject that uh I should have researched long, long ago, uh, but uh have not. Here's the issue with uh brine strength and soak time.
+
+[14:47] There's a couple things that a brine is doing. Salt, specific take salt first. Salt is flavoring uh your meat, right? That's one thing it's doing, and also uh salt soaking through into the meat is altering the protein structure so that it can uh hold on to more water when it's cooked and thereby provide more uh more insurance against overcooking. Now, I've definitely uh overbrine things, but I you know I I haven't done the research.
+
+[15:11] And what I'm saying is is that I'm going to have to do more research before I can thoroughly answer this question. It's one of the few things that even though I've been doing it a lot, and I'm supposed to be a technical related cook who pays attention to this sort of nonsense. Uh I have literally always done this by uh making a brine, dipping my finger in it, and tasting it. And uh I always make my brines pretty much the same, which is uh make them until they're salty as the ocean and for chicken or poultry, I then add sugar until I can just barely taste the sweetness and then go. I don't find that other flavors uh do too much to it uh except for they flavor the outside quite effectively.
+
+[15:47] In vacuum bag situations, you can get some permeation in, but uh not a lot. But um I promise Nastasha's writing this down now uh for me to do uh some research. Maybe I'll go look in the modernist cuisine and see what they have to say about it and uh get back to you on that next week. Right, Nastashi, making a note? Sure.
+
+[15:59] She's pretend typing. By the way, folks, that's Nastasha's pretend typing, right? So uh I'll tell you when she's actually doing what I'm asking so that I can properly answer you sometime, but uh that wasn't it. Okay. So with that, uh let me go to our first commercial break.
+
+[16:18] Call your questions to 718 uh 4972128. 7184972128. I've been holding out alone. I've been sleeping all alone. I've been holding on the phone.
+
+[16:46] I've been sleeping all alone. I won't miss you. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. By the way, Jack, uh, I don't know if we're gonna get to it, but you had a shout-out for uh good uh good interim music. You like that?
+
+[17:15] Anyway, we'll get to it in a minute. Okay. Hello, Nastasha. My name is Jamie, and my research on rotovaps, that's rotary evaporators for all of you not hip to the fact, have led me time and time again to the cooking issues blog, which I have not updated in a long time, and I apologize more on that later. I am looking into using a rotovap for distilling produce from our 72-acre farm.
+
+[17:35] I had a few questions that I was wondering if Dave may answer. Currently, we're looking into buying a larger roto vap for a line of spirits we intended to still in the near future. Depending on yield, we were looking into producing everything from start to finish without rectifying any existing base spirits, i.e., buying neutral spirits uh made off site and infusing them with uh stuff and then redistilling them on the roto vap. I understand uh the equipment will distill alcohol out of a solvent while maintaining the flavors to the truest form, which is true, that's the case. I just want to know how much can we rely on the roto vap to get a low wine mash?
+
+[18:05] A low wine is a low alcohol uh product or the first distillation run off of a normal thing uh to an 80-proof finished liquor. I'm assuming uh so 80 proof 40% finished liquor. Uh has Dave uh ever heard of distilling one's own base spirit through the roto vap. I've read that Dave personally buys low-end vodka, sometimes high end, uh, to pay the taxes uh and not run into any legal issues. With that aside, could it be done from the mass straight to the roto vap, um running it through again and again?
+
+[18:33] Uh thanks, Jamie Oakes from Jamie at Tamworth Garden.com. Tamworth Garden, I'd love a garden full of Tamworth pigs, wouldn't you? Good. Uh okay. So uh here here's the deal.
+
+[18:44] First of all, um, even though I do buy uh pre made spirits and redistill them uh and therefore pay the taxes on it, it is still illegal. So it's still not legal for me to do it. Uh you know, uh the reason it's uh illegal is because of tax bases, uh ta tax purposes, right? That's the reason that uh distillation is illegal. And uh our legal system hasn't figured out a way in most areas to kind of get around that, although things hopefully are changing soon and have been changing in certain places.
+
+[19:12] That said, the laws specifically are written to prevent someone with a 72 acre farm from taking all of their produce on site, converting it into liquor and selling it without paying taxes. So if you're gonna be doing it, um either just don't, you know, tell anyone that you're doing it uh or get uh permit to do it. Because other otherwise, like that's exactly the kind of thing that uh that those those guys are are looking at. Now I have done uh you know distillation uh with uh wine before. I've never distilled anything below about uh the with whose starting alcohol content was uh below about 12%.
+
+[19:52] So the the lowest alcohol content thing that I've really ever I mean other than water, right? Other than just water-based stuff, um, is about 12%. And I was uh easily able to get uh brandies well above uh 40 uh percent on one pass period. Bang. And it's because um uh the way the rota vap works, uh, you know, when everything's under uh vacuum, you can get um I you know it's been a long time since I've researched the curves, but you can get uh it there's a certain uh inherent like theoretical reflux rate on the inside, so it doesn't work the same way as with normal distillation with plates, and plus the vacuum shifts everything around in terms of what boils off first, etc.
+
+[20:33] etc. But uh I have taken well let's take port, which I do all the time, like 18 to 20, put that in, and I'll get uh I'll get a 100-proof brandy off, no sweat. No sweat. So um 100 proof, sorry. Uh yeah, 100 proof.
+
+[20:50] So uh so yes, that's definitely feasible. Your speeds are gonna be quite low because unlike a normal still, you're gonna need to provide uh if you want to keep the temperatures extremely low to not affect the flavors of your fruits, you're going to have to use uh a cooling power other than tap water. If you're using a cooling power other than tap water, you are going to have to um you're gonna have to chill it, and that's going to be really expensive to chill all that stuff down. Alternatively, you can keep your temperatures somewhat higher, right? And then when your temperatures are higher, then you can use regular tap water or you know, lime water, whatever process, you know, processed water, stream water, whatever you have, to chill your roto vap down uh and keep your margins uh high enough on your uh uh the temperature between the the water bath and the uh and the cooling water uh large enough to be able to do a good job.
+
+[21:40] But you have to test to see whether or not the stuff is gonna uh taste the way you want it. Before you invest in a 20 and 30 30 liter rotary evaporator, I highly, highly recommend you uh invest in a small rotary evaporator because the process scales up quite well from a small rotoVap to a big rotoVap. So, you know, invest a couple of grand in a small rotoVap or go find someone that has one that you can use so you can see whether you like the procedure before you invest in something as big as a large rotary evaporator, right? Because there's a lot of uh it takes a while to get to learn it. Another problem about doing uh base wines, like you're saying, is that most rotary evaporators don't have a way to separate heads from tails, and you're gonna have a uh big big problem on this.
+
+[22:26] So, what you're gonna have to do, I mean, I designed a pump for my rotary evaporator that allows me to taste the distillate as it works, as it pr as it's produced. So I can do easy cuts between heads and tails when I'm doing a distillation, right? It makes my life a lot easier, but it's not something that's standardly available. If you need to do that, what you're gonna need to do is over the course of your distillation run on the first pilot run, you're gonna have to figure out for X number of uh mil you know milliliters or liters of stuff that I put into the uh distillation flask, I gotta throw away the first X amount. And you're gonna do that by opening your system every, you know, every you know, chunk of time and tasting it to see whether you've gotten rid of the heads, and then uh at the same time you're gonna have to start tasting to see when the tails come in.
+
+[23:09] And then hopefully that recipe scales from small to large. In my experience, it has scaled percentage-wise. Uh as long as your temperatures are the same, your uh, you know, your the the product that you're putting in is the same, and the vacuum levels that you use are the same. But these are all things that are gonna have to be tweaked out. Uh so I wish you the best of luck.
+
+[23:26] And if you have any more questions, please write them in because everybody knows I love a rotovap. Uh did I read the promo yet? No. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application?
+
+[23:44] Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cooking enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask.
+
+[24:02] Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of fifty dollars or more, fifty, it's gone up, huh? Yeah. Huh.
+
+[24:15] Uh, fans of cooking issues that place an order of fifty dollars or more before next week's show, we'll get a free home size package of any ingredient of your choice. That's pretty cool. Any ingredient. Nice. Simply use the promo code CI65 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com and indicate in the comment box what ingredient you would like.
+
+[24:34] Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist pantry cooking needs. Fifty bucks though, huh? I guess in exchange they get to get any anyone that they want. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[24:44] Uh all right. By the way, Nastasha, have you ever heard of Wolfman Jack? Yeah. Oh, good. I was gonna I was thinking on the way over, like, you know, like uh radio people I used to listen to when I was a kid, and whether you'd heard of them.
+
+[24:59] If you hadn't heard of them, I was gonna be incredibly depressed, like you're a three-year-old and I'm nine million years old. You know, uh uh, I'm gonna go to questions because otherwise I'm gonna run out of time. I was gonna tell a story about uh about my cherry allergy and my hoping that by getting my tonsils out I could fix it and how all my hopes were dashed and I'm incredibly depressed about it. Anyway, uh Jason Molinari writes in uh uh two questions. Recently, some new studies have shown that many or most plastic leak leech estrogenic chemicals which have been shown to be harmful to fetal and young mammals messing with development.
+
+[25:31] This is of particular concern to me given that I have a 2.5-year-old girl, uh I should probably say two and a half. Yeah, two and a half year old girl, and we often eat souvited food. I understand the uh research seems to be incomplete, but you may have access to other articles or studies which I do not. Should I be freaking out, or is this another item blown out of proportion? Uh and then uh there's a link to the relevant study, and uh you'll have to uh you'll have to excuse me for one minute while I call up said relevant study.
+
+[25:59] Uh but the relevant study is uh Oh no, please tell me it didn't close it. Okay. That's a good word to start with anything, right? If you're writing if you're writing anything, a book, magazine article, anything, start it with the word estrogenic. Most plastic products released estrogenic chemicals, a potential health problem that can be solved.
+
+[26:20] Uh, and this is uh fairly recent article, I think, from July of 2011. And uh look, this article was new to me. I read it this morning, and I read uh some other uh articles uh uh on this subject. But the point is basically that there's a whole class of chemicals called endocrine disruptors that mess with your hormones and can do things like cause uh early puberty in girls or can uh have kind of delayed sexual development in in boys. It just messes you up all around, kind of.
+
+[26:51] Uh and so as a result of this, many people have stayed away from, for instance, baby bottles containing the ingredient what's that? Anyway, containing the ingredient uh BPA uh bisphenol A. Um so this is something that's been uh kind of bubbling under the surface. People have been worried about certain plastics, but uh the theory has been that the plastics that don't contain uh known endocrine disruptors are okay. So what this study did was uh they took a whole boatload of different plastics and uh and basically they sent the researchers over the course of four years out to various supermarkets and food chains, purchased both empty and full plastic containers, uh, and then subjected them to a bunch of tests to try to see whether they could leach crap out of these things, including microwave heating, including uh soaking it in alcohol, including soaking it in salt, uh things like that, different various heating regimes.
+
+[27:49] And uh unfortunately, and then what they would do is they take the whatever they uh did, you know, whatever whatever the liquid was they used to leach, and they would apply it to see whether or not it bound uh to have an assay to see they have an assay for uh endocrine you know for estrogen um uh you know estrogen uh estrogenic products. And they said, Is there a reaction on this assay that we can see that it there are uh um active components in here that could be endocrine disruptors? Okay. Uh the bad news, I'll give you the bad news. The bad news is according to this study, uh many things that you would think are safe, including baby bottles that are labeled BPA free, in fact can leach crap out.
+
+[28:26] And even plastics that are free of plasticizers, for instance, polyethylene, can have additives added to the plastics that um make them release some form of uh endo, you know, like estrogenically active uh compound into foods under certain conditions. So that's the bad news. Uh this is very uh new research, so I really don't know what to make of it. I looked up uh some of the other relevant uh articles on it and uh you know there's there's just not really uh enough known part of the problem is is that the there's no kind of known no known minimum level at which kind of uh where this stuff is okay and you know and the research is still being done. The good news was I couldn't look over the charts thoroughly and like really digest them, but it looks like things like plastic wrap had fairly low levels compared to other things um of having um uh things leaching out of them.
+
+[29:23] PETG bottles that were uh free of BPA tended to leach uh stuff um because the actual monomer itself is uh is uh it has some activity, some endocrine disruption activity, and if it's not fully if it degrades over time, that can that can leach out uh apparently according to the article. Uh and so I I don't know, I just don't know. Uh it's kind of uh it's an interesting subject, and I hope to look uh into it um more. Um I was a little upset to find that things that I knew were free of these sorts of uh um uh endocrine disruptors in terms of what the actual makeup of the plastics were when tested uh had some activity in them. I that I don't know that this stuff's been retested.
+
+[30:07] I gotta look into it. Anyway. Two, and on a lighter note, can you give me any ideas for some pan sauces that might go with low temperature fish, meat, and poultry? Since it's not cooked in a pan except for a super quick sear, there usually isn't any deglazable fond in the pan. And let's face it, a low temperature fillet of cod can be pretty boring, even if flavorings are used in the bag.
+
+[30:24] Okay, a couple things you do. One, uh take the bones or whatever else and make a stock. If you're doing chicken or doing fish, uh, you know, well, fish you're not gonna brown it, but you know, chicken, you can bump brown out the bones, make a stock, reduce it, and make a sauce that way. In fish, typically what cooks are gonna do is they're gonna add something that's very high in umami to uh a finished sauce. That's why a lot of times when these fish came out, you'd see a lot of things with miso sauces, with soy-based sauces, sauces that had a lot of those brown notes and those kind of uh brown characteristics that you would want that you don't get in those high uh high temperature things.
+
+[30:59] But it's true that uh a plain low temperature fillet of cod can be pretty boring, unless it's so low temperature that you haven't killed the worms and the worms are still moving around on the inside of a cod. Nastasha, did you know that cod has all sorts of worms in it? Are you ever gonna eat cod again? You know, whenever students, the first time they butcher cod at the at the school or wherever, the first time you butcher cod and you see the little worms coming out of it, you're like, oh my gosh, but you know what? You've been eating cod your whole life.
+
+[31:24] We cooked the worms out. Anyways. Speaking of cook the worms out, that reminds me of uh bleach the rabies out, which is uh uh Kent Kirstenbaum, our friend uh at uh uh NYU, Professor at NYU. His favorite thing that I ever said was bleach the rabies out when I have a new centrifuge. And he was just on Sid the Science Kid.
+
+[31:43] I don't know what that is. Uh well it's well if you have next time you have a little kid, Sid the Science Kid is like you know, a show on the TV that little kids watch. Anyway, cool that Kent's on Sid the Science Kid. Okay. Uh I hope that was a good answer.
+
+[31:56] Is that a good answer? Yeah. Yeah. From uh Jason Mulinari. Okay.
+
+[32:00] Um we have a question in from Matt. How do you think you pronounce that? Hasa? Has? Haas.
+
+[32:07] Okay. Uh love the show. Use iTunes to listen. In regards to braising jus color, this is by the way, a response where we said, Does anyone else have a good way to get the uh sauce color? Remember?
+
+[32:18] Mm-hmm. Yeah. So this is this is a response uh from Matt. He also has a response for uh good plating ideas, I think. Uh okay, and then a question.
+
+[32:26] Okay. So uh in regards to brazing uh color, uh brazing sauce color. I learned a technique from uh Paul Bartellato, who learned it from uh Joy Robouchon uh on refreshing sauces. The technique is good not only for color but flavor as well. But for every service, bring the sauce to a boil uh and in a separate pot for a red wine sauce, reduce a half bottle of wine along with aromatics and roasted shanks of meat scraps or shank or scraps of meat.
+
+[32:49] I'm I don't know, what shanks of meat scraps. When the wine is very close to being reduced, crank both pots and slowly incorporate the base into the uh into the reduction. Do this two ounces at a time, and when you're done, the sauce will be very ruby and have all the flavors reinforced. The color will last for around five hours. We did this every service with all of our sauces.
+
+[33:06] Good tip. Good tip. On the topic of fancy presentation for the home cooking. This is a really good tip, by the way. Uh I hadn't thought of it because we're stupid.
+
+[33:13] That's why. Uh uh, YouTube, some baller chef demos to see how they plate. Uh FrenchChef.tv has some demos as well, uh, as well as the Alinea/slash next videos. That's a really good idea. So stupid.
+
+[33:26] Everyone on YouTube now has like famous people doing plating work. Why am I such an idiot? And why didn't you suggest that to me? God, we're useless. Anyway, thanks, Matt.
+
+[33:37] Those are two excellent, a good tip and a really good idea. Anyway, finally, I have a question. Is there a specific formula for savory ice creams and sorbet? I have formulas for sweet versions where the solid sugars and liquids are balanced. Adapted from Sebastian Canon, who's from the French pastry school or competitor in uh in what's it called?
+
+[33:54] Chicago. Uh also seen on Michael Lisconis' blog. Ran into Michael Scottis the other day at Sambar, by the way. Oh yeah? Yeah.
+
+[34:01] It was? Yeah. Well, and he told me it's his birthday. What I said, happy birthday. He's like, oh, I saw Michael Scott's there.
+
+[34:06] It's his birthday. You know going into the see uh what's going on, you're gonna say hello you're not gonna say happy birthday. Nice. So I didn't say happy birthday to the guy. Yeah.
+
+[34:12] Him and his wife Heathers, the uh GM at uh Aldea, George Mendes' restaurant. Anyways, now I feel like a jackass for not saying uh happy birthday. But uh I was commenting his last you know, it's pastry chef Armageddon right now. Uh Johnny Azini from Jean Georges is leaving JG and Michael Asconis is leaving uh La Bernadette. And I was like, when's your last day?
+
+[34:33] He's like, he's like December 30th. I'm like, what are you assissing? You can't go all the way to the 31st to finish all years. He's like, Le Bernard Dan's closed on New Year's. I was like, oh.
+
+[34:41] Oh. Anyway, uh, good guy, Michael Scott. Okay. Uh all the sorbets and ice cream using this formulation are great. The only thing I've changed is maybe adding um non-fat uh milk protein, aka dry milk, to certain sorbetes, although that's gonna make them more milky, which is gonna make them more like uh like a sherbet, right?
+
+[34:59] Anyway. Uh, do most people substitute isomalt for sucrose or just make a yummy base and hit it with uh liquid nitrogen? Okay. Uh you can't just hit a base with liquid nitrogen and uh get a uh really good uh result. You can get a sore because the sugar is there as a texturizing agent, right?
+
+[35:18] You need that sugar there to get uh a proper texture. Otherwise, even with liquid nitrogen, it's gonna be hard, it's not gonna feel right in the mouth. I wouldn't substitute uh I mean isom you can substitute isomalt. Uh some people claim that it gives you the runs if you eat too much, but that's never happened to me. And I've eaten a bunch once just to the reason is you just don't digest it as much.
+
+[35:37] That's why they say that. Uh I would move to uh but isomalt, I'm gonna have to remember I'm making this up. Uh it's something like 50, 30 to 50% as sweet as sucrose, so it is substantially less sweet, but uh glucose syrup is even less sweet than um than isomalt. Uh and I don't know whether it gives you the poops or not. I don't think it gives you the poops, the glucose syrup.
+
+[36:00] So I would go with glucose syrup, which is what you can use, or very low DE corn, you know, corn base or syrup, you know, everyone says corn syrup's, you know. Look, it's it first of all, if high fructose corn corn syrup is what's causing uh the entire world to fall apart, you know, whether it is or whether it isn't. Not all corn syrups are high fructose corn syrup, let's just say that right now. Anyway, so a low DE, in other words, non sweet corn syrup would be the way I would go as opposed to using um isomalt. Uh although I have used isomalt uh as well, and it works.
+
+[36:31] You just need something that has the water binding properties of uh although my isomalt now. Anyway, of uh and the texturizing properties of sugar, otherwise the texture's not gonna be right. Uh anyway, uh I'll try to find some recipes or or if you if you're having problems uh working out a formulation, just give us another holler and I'll uh call one of my buddies and figure out the exact numbers. Okay. Question in from uh Ellie.
+
+[36:55] It's this is a you know, we remember we had a problem pronouncing pronunciation guy now. Ellie, like Eddie but with an L. Okay. Uh I am now on my second immersion circulator unit from eBay in the last three years. I'm thinking I should have spent the money on a new one from Polyscience instead.
+
+[37:12] Yeah, you know what? I think I said this a million times. I used to I used to buy circulators constantly off of eBay and then spend all my time keeping them running. And the first time I got a new excuse me, a something wrong with my face. A new poly science, I was like, wow, this is what it's like to not be a D-bag.
+
+[37:28] Anyway, uh it was what? Right, right? No. Anyway, Nastasha's tapping her watch, meaning I have to hurry. Um, yeah, she probably should have.
+
+[37:35] Anyway, the one that uh the one that's now the one I have now is a very nice looking digital lauda with barely any cosmetic damage, and it holds the temperature perfectly. For all intents and purposes, it looks barely used. I've had it for maybe two months now, and it used to work almost silently, uh, just humming along. Now it seems to be developing a slight grading noise. Nothing very noisy or terribly annoying, but I remember you mentioning that some immersion circulators develop that noise after long-term use.
+
+[37:59] The problem is I do not remember if you said it was something that could be fixed with some WD-40, or is a problem that will get worse and worse until the machine is unusable in a month or two. Any help is much appreciated. Okay. First of all, I don't know which louda you have. I used to buy Lauda's all the time.
+
+[38:11] They looked awesome and they looked barely used, and they all died. They all died on me. Um what died on them was the triac. And the ones that I'd use, uh, most of them. I had somewhere the motor went, uh, where the inside the triac would burn out so it wasn't wouldn't heat anymore, it would still run.
+
+[38:27] The kind of noise you're getting depends. You have to make a decision. Uh uh and uh the new loud is probably that doesn't happen to, uh, or newer. Um you have to figure out whether it's a bearing noise, which it sounds like like it's a bearing noise, hard to describe. Or whether it sounds like the shaft is rubbing on something.
+
+[38:43] If the shaft is rubbing on something try to bend the bottom a little bit so that the shaft no longer touches any metal parts and that should stop it and then you're good to go for a long time. If it's the bearing making the noise then you're kind of in a world of hurt eventually. I have kept them running for months and months and months by spraying with WD forty but remember WD40 ain't food grade. So you don't want to do it uh too much and it's very easy to test. Hit the bearing with a little WD 40 and if the squeaking and scraping goes away then it's your bearing.
+
+[39:12] If not then the shaft is touching on something. Hold on what jack tones? Take the collar oh we have a caller? Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave and Nastasha this is uh Sarah Beth Stad.
+
+[39:22] Hey how are you doing nice good we answer did we answer the question or no? Did it work? Uh you did you sure did we ended up uh so we ended up putting the meat in a uh boiling water. So now we joke we're gonna go uh boil up some steaks for some friends. So yeah yeah so um we got three different cuts of steak from the same eye.
+
+[39:46] Uh so it was pretty con hopefully the marbling would stay consistent. And then we put it in a double boiler. So that way the meat didn't hit the bottom of the pan. Right. And then got got a uh got a probe uh just one of the instant read thermometers that only registered at the tip and then we put that horizontally into the meat and um numbers were almost dead on with the with the four times and we haven't we haven't attempted the uh the equations yet but uh we downloaded the app and all that stuff, so we're playing around with that right now.
+
+[40:17] And and your your numbers, your numbers uh jibed with the application's numbers roughly or no, no, with that with that um roughly four times, you know, the the the inch was just about uh roughly you know equal to you know, when you add in the the inch to the inch and a half to the two inches, it was like a pretty straight straight line with the times. Really? Um yeah, yeah. Wow, it shouldn't it shouldn't be straight though, it shouldn't be linear. Yeah, well that's what it that's what it graphed out as.
+
+[40:47] That's why we're gonna we're gonna break out that app and play with that a little bit and see, you know, because it cause it um you know that's what it showed, but like you were saying, it shouldn't be linear. No, it should not be linear. No. Every every double every doubling of thickness should be a factor of four. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[41:03] So that's why we're gonna break out the thing and see if you know maybe something was wrong in our experiment or or just run the math on it and double check it. Uh that's that's an expensive cut to boil, huh? Oh, you're telling me. If you're not gonna eat it, get like eye of round or something like that, 'cause it's got very low uh fat content in it and it's a lot cheaper. Tastes bad when when it's cooked long time because it goes livery and it doesn't have any fat, so it's not my favorite cut to eat, but uh if you're gonna be boiling it, I mean d how did it taste after you boiled it?
+
+[41:36] Uh well, yeah, I could have used it for my shoes. It was pretty pretty tough. Pretty tough. You know, but what I did just for grins, I put it in a hot pan and I you know, we we seared it with some olive oil and garlic and all that, try to dress it up a little bit. But yeah, once you boil it, once you boil it, suckers boiled.
+
+[41:53] Uh one last question. How um what was the uh like uh okay, let's say thickness is the Z dimension, how large was the X and Y? Oh, as far as uh the size of it, yeah. Um they were fairly consistent, so the if we we we took the steak and we cut it in half, so it was like two two pieces for each size. And they were about four inches by four inches.
+
+[42:20] Okay, so it was a it was circumference, but it was like a slab. Right, but a a lot bigger, a lot bigger uh X and Y than Z. Yes. Okay, good. Yeah.
+
+[42:31] Yeah. So approxim approximating a slab. Good, good, good. Exactly. Yeah.
+
+[42:36] Well, you know, uh I'm surprised it came out uh as a linear uh relationship. I'm gonna you're gonna have to like fill me in. You have to do do some tests with that app, see what it re tells you to happen. That's what we're gonna do. And the other problem was, you know, we only had like what, two pieces for each thickness, so we didn't have a lot of data points to graph either.
+
+[42:59] Right. So may I recommend in the future a cheaper cut? Yes. Duly noted. Yeah.
+
+[43:08] Yeah, but my daughter loves your podcast. We were we were listening to it on uh on the way to uh school this morning. Oh wow. So yeah, yeah. And and don't worry, I pre-screen most of them for the for the cursing.
+
+[43:20] So we try not well, you know, we really we try not to do it now, especially because you know we now uh label as a family show. You know, surprisingly in the real life, I'm the one you have to worry about, but on the air, Nastasha's the one you have to worry about, isn't that strange? Uh-huh. And me. I'm not saying any I'm not saying anything.
+
+[43:35] Anybody that's called the hammer, I'm I'm just gonna be quiet. All righty. Well uh well listen, thanks so much for calling. Do you have a uh a separate separate question or no? No, no, I was just calling to let you guys know that we we we heard it and we uh we did the thing.
+
+[43:49] So uh we'll play around with that app and uh let you know what happened. Cool. Thanks so much. Yeah. All right.
+
+[43:54] Alright, have a good one. All right. Uh one question we had uh that I'm gonna actually know I know I'm gonna postpone until the next one from Howard is with the holiday season winding up. I was wondering and the reason is going to become apparent. Uh I was uh wondering if you had any suggestions for kitchen gadget equipments uh and gifts with the holiday season.
+
+[44:11] If you could include some things from a variety of price ranges, that would be great. And I figured this would be a good thing for us to actually discuss on next week's show and to give anyone who's listening an opportunity to write in with what they think a good idea would be. What do you think? That's a good idea. Smart?
+
+[44:25] I mean, I have my ideas, which but you know, I can uh you know, I'm I could do more. Uh another thing, just a quick in uh Kevin writes in, says, Hope all is well. Just want to drop a quick line and let you know that carbonating vodka with a soda stream system works quite well. Uh and he's attached pictures. Uh and I I didn't get a chance to look at the pictures yet, but he's said I use the same tubing I use for an aquarium pump I have connected to my uh D uh do it yourself immersion circulator.
+
+[44:48] Um and he recommends using a soda stream to vent out trapped air before pressurizing for the first time to get the pressures high. This is a technique I've advocated for a while if you have a soda stream of putting an extender tube on the end of it so that you can actually carbonate with a smaller amount of liquor uh and actually have the tube sit below the level. Uh because if you don't do that, you're not gonna get good carbonation. If you if you if you fill it up high enough, your uh you're good. The problem is it's gonna overflow when it foams because vodka wants to foam a little bit after it carbonates.
+
+[45:14] But I will say this also, uh, Kevin. Keep tuned. We're gonna have uh and I'll talk more about it, but I have some new carbonation stuff coming out that's gonna uh it's gonna blow everyone's mind, right? Yeah. Gonna blow everyone's mind.
+
+[45:27] How much time do I have left? What? Yes. All right. So listen, I have some questions in.
+
+[45:32] For instance, uh, I have another question in uh from Ellie about alginate. I'm gonna get to that one next time. Uh Colin wrote in with some uh typical Collin kind of stuff, and we'll get to that uh next time. And Kangber wrote in actually after you got to speak to us. And by the way, I was giving us uh Jack, he's the one that says that he no longer fast forwards because he enjoys your choice of segue music so much.
+
+[45:54] That was an awesome email. Thanks, man. Yeah, yeah. So uh Jack says thank you. And uh I'm gonna get more to what you wrote about, other than that, next week because today we're out of time and this has been cooking issues.
+
+[46:16] Oh, you didn't when you've got Omaha Steaks convenient everyday protein waiting at home, that what's for dinner panic turns into your weeknight win. And now's the time to buy during the Omaha Steaks Spring Savings event. Save big on their exclusive lineup of mouthwatering steaks, gourmet burgers, air-chilled chicken, pork, seafood, and more. Go to OmahaStakes.com for an extra thirty-five dollars off when you use promo code AUDIO at checkout. That's OmahaStakes.com.
+
+[46:47] Promo code A-U-D-I-O. Terms apply, see site for details.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Robertas in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. In the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:37] Joined as usual in the studio with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? I'm fine. And we got Jack and Carlos in the engineering booth. Hey fellas.
+
+[0:44] How's it going? Going well. Uh last week was the second kind of anniversary/slash holiday party of the Heritage Radio Network. Uh when good time was had by all, correct, Jack? Yeah, it was awesome.
+
+[0:54] Sorry for cursing in front of your kids. Uh well uh he's uh they're used to it. Yeah, well uh they are not, first of all. First of all, they're not, and second of all, uh we did the earmuff, so I did a very effective earmuff so much daddy, what are you doing? What are you doing?
+
+[1:09] Anyway, uh okay. Uh call in all of your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Is that right? That's that's right.
+
+[1:19] Oh, nice. You got it. All right, so we have some questions to get to from by the way. This week is uh the last pre-Christmas show, correct, Nastasha? Yes.
+
+[1:29] So next week you have to ask all of your Christmas cooking related questions because that would be our last opportunity to answer them, yeah. We could do it next week, no? I'm doing a show next week. We'll have to ask the questions. Oh yeah.
+
+[1:44] Yeah, yeah. Oh, last uh night I was on the uh Anthony Bourdain uh the no reservation show, which I wasn't able to watch because I don't have cable. Nastasha was able to watch it and said that I didn't come off like an idiot, which means they must have heavily edited me. No, it was just good. It was compared to the rest of the show, you were the best part.
+
+[2:01] Wow, why don't you insult the rest of the show there? Uh who was on it? Uh how's Christopher Walken? He was on it, right? I only watched until 45.
+
+[2:10] So you missed the you missed the walking. I think I might have, yeah. You love Christopher Walken. Everybody loves Christopher Walken. How could you miss the walking?
+
+[2:17] Anyway. Maybe some ti I was tired. My 28 or 29-year-old body can't handle staying up till 11 anymore. Tired. Nice.
+
+[2:29] Okay. So, uh let's get to some of last week's questions while we're at it. Uh Ellie last week had two questions. I was only able to answer one of them. This one comes in on spherification, aka the tiny balls.
+
+[2:40] I use sodium alginate baths for spherifications once in a while. I do that based on a recipe from the Alinea book mostly. So typically uh mix the food to be spherified with calcium lactate. Uh this is a reverse spherification. Uh we'll go into that in a minute.
+
+[2:54] Uh this works great and I get no bad taste. Uh, but I always wonder why I can't use uh straight up calcium that I get from the grocery store instead of calcium lactate or calcium lactate gluconate. Uh I made yogurt spheres once and they worked great with no additional calcium, uh anything since the yogurt was already high uh without any additional calcium or anything because the yogurt was already high in calcium. Is plain calcium not soluble in a food liquid uh in its pure form, maybe what is the deal? All right, the deal is there's a couple of deals.
+
+[3:21] One, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, sodium alginate is a seaweed uh derivative, a hydrocolloid, that uh as soon as you get a solution of it and it touches uh calcium, uh, it forms an irreversible gel. The downside is, there's two downsides. One is that uh there's three, it doesn't taste very good because it locks in flavor. Uh two, the texture is not particularly pleasant uh on its own. Uh and the third problem is is that if you were to take a flavor, let's say, and mix it with alginate and drop into calcium, it turns solid uh you know very quickly.
+
+[3:54] And once it's solid, it has basically no flavor to it at all. Uh so I mean, no good, no good flavor anyway. Uh so uh what Ellie's doing is called reverse verification, where you put the calcium into your flavor and you drop it into alginate and it just forms a thin membrane around the outside. Now, uh calcium is not extraordinarily soluble in water. Um foods that naturally have a lot of calcium in them can be used uh for uh reverse sperification.
+
+[4:22] So, for instance, uh olives uh typically already, I don't know whether they have natural calcium, but they usually add calcium uh to the uh uh brine that they're in to keep them crisp, uh, and that's enough to do reverse sperification. So uh calciums are basically in there's a uh a grade of bad taste to uh to solubility basically. So the most soluble form of calcium is the worst tasting, and that's calcium chloride. It tastes horrible. You would never use reverse serification for that.
+
+[4:51] Calcium lactate, uh slightly better. Calcium lactate gluconate, slightly better yet. I don't know what the form of calcium is that you can get in the supermarket grocery, but most forms of calcium, calcium carbonate is uh very insoluble, and you're not gonna get uh very good uh results. But fruit juices that are doped with calcium, I think are typically uh doped with uh calcium lactate gluconate, and so those would probably uh work. So the the other thing that you need to bear in mind is that the more available, the more calcium that's available in the system, uh the stronger the gel setting is.
+
+[5:25] So if you need a very strong gel, uh you need a very hard, fast form of calcium, and that's when you bust out the lactate or God forbid uh the chloride. If you want a softer gel, uh you can use a less available form of calcium or less calcium total. So I think you'll notice that the less calcium you have there, or the less available the calcium is to the alginate, the softer the gel will be. Uh and that has to do with the fact that um uh basically the strength of the gel uh is kind of dictated as it's forming. So it it just leaving it longer in a calcium bath will cause more gel to form, but won't make it a lot, lot stronger.
+
+[6:01] Anyway, what do you think, Stas? Yeah, good job. All right. Uh okay, now got some interesting question in on uh ducks. Ducks.
+
+[6:09] Yeah. Uh Jacob uh Cessna, you think you pronounce it Cessna? Not spelled like the airplane, the Cessna, uh the 172 being kind of the hallmark uh private aircraft, the Cessna 172. Anyway, but not spelled that way, spelled Cessna. Uh says, good morning, guys.
+
+[6:24] A longtime listener, a first-time writer. I have a crap ton of questions. By the way, Jacob, I changed your actual wording, which wasn't crap ton, but remember, this is now a family show, so we can't uh k can't curse anymore. Jack. Uh okay.
+
+[6:38] I have a crap ton of questions, but we will start with a few easy ones. I do a good amount of hunting uh and just hit a big on ducks the other weekend. I have breasts from a bunch of spoonies, that's a spoonbill duck, by the way, and have a few teal that I have plucked and vacuum sealed and are waiting for me in the fridge. I already ate some of the spoonies. I butterfly the breast soap and then rolled them in some house made guanchali um from Avedano's in San Francisco and quickly seared them in a hot cast iron skillet.
+
+[7:00] Guanchali, for those of you not in the know, is cured pig jowl. And it's one of the maybe the most delicious things you can put on a pizza. What do you think? Mm-hmm. It's some delicious stuff.
+
+[7:08] Nastash, I could have just said uh some any kind of crazy thing, and Nastasha would have just said, uh-huh. She's like, No, I actually don't like guanchali, but we don't know. You don't like guanchali? Oh my god! Oh Jesus.
+
+[7:14] Damn. Oh my god. Okay. Uh in San Francisco and quickly seared them in a hot cast iron skillet. My girlfriend and I had that with some duck liver mousse she made, and it was awesome.
+
+[7:30] The mousse was on bread and not on the duck breast, uh, which probably a good plan. Uh I recently returned from some training at Quantico. Ooh, Quantico, huh? Oh can training. Nice.
+
+[7:38] Marines, Quantico's Marines, right? Uh so I am uh getting caught up on your old shows, and I heard you talk about upland game and waterfowl. Any tips on cooking the few breasts I have left and the two teals. Okay. Uh now.
+
+[7:53] Uh here's the deal. So the the a regular duck breast, right, wants to cook anywhere between 57 Celsius, which is about 135, and 58 Celsius, depending on how tough the duck breast is. You don't want to over you don't want to cook uh one of these things too long. Even on a regular uh farm raised duck, uh, after a long cooking time, the breasts are gonna start losing their texture and they're gonna taste uh livery and gamey. My assumption is if you're doing uh wild duck that that's gonna happen a lot, lot faster.
+
+[8:24] But I would try the breasts sous vide at 57. I would try them for uh I would try one just to see what it's like. Uh at about 57 or 57 and a half for about an hour, cool it down and then sear it off and see kind of what result you get. If it's too tough, you could try going longer, uh like two hours, but you're starting gonna start probably getting a livery uh gamey taste in it. But I'm really curious as to what kind of uh results you get out of it.
+
+[8:50] Now, another thing to be uh aware of, and I'm sure you know this as a hunter, is that the taste of the animal is wildly dependent on what the duck has been eating. And this has been known uh for centuries. So I did some some research for you. Uh first I looked in my After the Hunt book, which is John Folse's book on uh hunting in uh in uh Louisiana, uh, and he had only one recipe for uh for spoonbill, but it was so like kind of doped up with stuff that I doubt you could taste what the spoon bill spoon bill uh actually tasted like. But he made an interesting point.
+
+[9:21] Canvasbacks are well known as one of the kind of best tasting ducks that you can get. But he says what they probably don't taste as good as they used to because they used to graze a lot on wild celery and uh basically all of that, all of that is gone. But that led me to more research. I was like, well, what do spoon bills, aka shovelers, uh shovel, you know, shovel-nosed ducks uh eat? Because what they do is is they stick their their big old uh you know, beak beak, what is it called?
+
+[9:44] The uh mount with the thing that ducks have. They stuck their big old bill into the mud and scoop crap up. So there was a study done in um 1922, uh notes on the food habitats of the shoveler or spoonbill duck uh by uh Will W. L. McCaddy.
+
+[10:01] And basically what's interesting about the spoonbill is that it not only eats a lot of uh vegetable matter, but a lot of uh animal matter out of the mud in the inside, especially kind of small crustaceans, and so my guess is that it's apt to have somewhat of a fishy taste. And so the thing is, is that can that be made a positive thing, or is that inherently uh a negative thing? Uh Edward T. Martin in 19 uh 18 in uh Hunter and uh Trader Trapper, the magazine, uh makes a note that uh you can remove the skin of these ducks, and a lot of the uh kind of fishy taste, because it's gonna be concentrated in the fat, is gonna be concentrated in the skin. And so if you're having a problem with fishy take taste in a in a spoon bill, uh perhaps you can remove the skin and get rid of that.
+
+[10:42] That would be horrible because the skin is obviously uh one of the reasons why God invented uh the duck. He also, if you re go in and read uh Edward uh T. Martin's uh piece on ducks in the 1918 edition of Hunter Tra uh Trader Trapper on Google. Uh, there's a very interesting discussion of rice birds, uh, Carolina rice birds, which are one of my uh fascinations because it's the bobble link, which is a still extant bird, uh, that used to gorge themselves on rice uh as they flew south uh through the Carolinas, and they were such a pest that uh people will go out and shoot them in droves, but they were incredibly delicious and could be eaten whole, similar to the French Ortalon. And um I'll just read you one quick passage.
+
+[11:20] I remember this is uh Edward T. Martin writing in 1918. I well remember how the Carolina rice fields were protected from the ravages of the rice birds by an army of plantation hands. They weren't slaves anymore, unfortunately. Well, I mean, fortunately, Drake Price.
+
+[11:33] Wow. Jesus, you know what I mean? What I mean is is fortunately they weren't sleeves slaves anymore, but they were still unfortunately held down in the plantation system. There's an excellent book called uh Black Rice, uh by uh what's her first name? Beth uh what's her name?
+
+[11:47] Something carny. Uh and it's an amazing book on the evolution of the uh rice plantation in South Carolina, specifically how the rice that was originally raised there was an African uh type of rice, glabarima rice, and the actual technology for uh raising that rice was introduced to the plantation owners by the first charter generation of slaves that were brought over to South Carolina, uh, and then how they got co-opted and ended up so they started out with kind of a better situation than many of the other slaves on the in the East Coast of and then got progressively worse because the conditions were so awful. After slavery was abolished, the rice plantations continued to exist, but the conditions were still horribly awful, and um the only reason that it went away was because it turned out that mechanization couldn't be applied to the Carolina rice fields. Anyway, crazy story. Okay.
+
+[12:35] Uh you guys know what I mean. Nastasha giving me the wow on that. I can't believe you're a bad person. You're a low-quality human being. Anyway, I well remember how the Carolina rice fields were protected from the ravages of the rice birds by an army of plantation hands armed with muskets and stationed along the levees.
+
+[12:48] The birds, so fat they could barely fly, were given no rest. It was one constant bombardment. I have uh been in some skirmishes where the firing was no heavier. I guess he was in the war. Uh very few of the birds were k uh, very few of the birds killed were picked up.
+
+[13:00] The object was to save the rice. But those that found their way to market were esteemed as a great delicacy for the table. They were far ahead of any other game I ever ate, not even accepting woodcock. Okay. Uh okay.
+
+[13:12] And then um, so that's kind of answered that question. Jacob writes on and says, uh something to think about, because when I get the funds, I'm gonna uh uh cooking CV. I'm going to be emailing you a lot of questions. I've been talking to the guys at 4505 Meets in San Francisco and the guys have fatty calf in Napa. I'm learning to make my own salumi, and because I like to hunt, I have decided to turn a small in-laws quarter in my backyard into a meat retreat.
+
+[13:33] I'm only 25 and don't have in-laws, and if I did, I wouldn't want them in my backyard like a bunch of vagrant vagrants. Jacob, let me tell you something. Once you have kids, if you should have the kids someday, uh, you're gonna want the in-laws to come over to take care of the kids, believe me. So you're gonna have to uh convert that back from a meat retreat into an in-lock cabin once you once you have the uh the little ones. So my plan is to put a small U.S.
+
+[13:52] cooler game locker in along uh along with uh areas to hold my meat slicer and butchering tables. I really want a buffalo chopper, and who doesn't? Uh the big question is what to use as a fermentation curing chamber. I was looking in U.S. cooler mixed floral coolers which allow you to control temperature and humidity.
+
+[14:06] But would they work? Just something to think about. Well, I don't know. I I was trying to look at a little bit of it. They're mainly meant for flowers, high humidity, and cool.
+
+[14:13] Uh if you want to control it more, you can also, it's very easy to build a uh simple uh humidity temperature controller for like two, three hundred bucks, so you could control uh however you want. I could go into that if anyone's interested later. I don't really have time, unfortunately, today, but it's you if you Google humidistat andor humidity control for a couple hundred bucks, you can do it. Uh and also Jacob Rudson, based on our recommendation, he got the book of garlic and aliens for his girlfriend. She's a science and food nut and has her degree in mechanical engineering.
+
+[14:38] Meky, love Mekie, Mekie and Touble E, my two favorite e's, and owns her own small bakery. She thought it was pretty freaking awesome. Thanks for the help. Sincerely, Jacob. Uh should we take our first commercial break?
+
+[14:47] Yeah. Alright, go to our first commercial break. Cooking issues. Them young girls, they do get weird. Wearing that same old shaggy dress.
+
+[15:22] But when she gets weary, try a little tendonet. You know she's waiting. Yes. And test all painting. That's your nephew, nepha, never nephe's there waiting.
+
+[15:59] And without them. Trua. A little tenderness. A little tenderness, yeah. Alright, so hey, welcome back to cooking issues.
+
+[16:15] Dave Marlon. Calling your questions to uh what is it? 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook.
+
+[16:25] Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cooking enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks. Thanks stocking stuffer. Saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[16:44] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. Why even meat glue? It's like meat glue is weirder than the rest of it. Yeah, well, it sounds weird. Oh, okay.
+
+[16:52] Uh, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry values your feedback and encourage it.
+
+[17:07] They have now decided to add product reviews to their website. Any customer who visits a site to post a review before next week's show will get a free ten dollar gift certificate. Good towards the person of anything purchase of anything in the store. Let Chris and Company know what you love or what you'd improve about their products or service and help other customers by sharing your experience. Visit modernistpantry.com for all of your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[17:30] Yeah. Right? That's my new sound effect. Do you like that? Paper crunching on the mic sounds awesome.
+
+[17:35] Yeah, it does. It really does. Uh, okay. Gavin Norcal writes in on rotisseries and frying. Hey Nastasha, love the show.
+
+[17:41] You and Dave are great. Thanks for doing it every week. You are welcome. I had a suggestion for a cooking equipment gift for the holidays, as Dave requested at the end of the last week's show. A good quality deep fryer for the home probably can be had at a reasonable price, gently used from Craigslist or eBay.
+
+[17:56] I think it's under uh an underappreciated home appliance. Folks just need to take the plunge, haha, and use them, and I'm sure Dave can offer lots of suggestions for home use beyond French fries, right? Well, did you pick a question that I like? Okay, look. For the past twelve years or so, 10, 12 years, I've had uh in my home a professional deep fryer.
+
+[18:21] When I say professional, it requires 35 pounds of oil to fill it up and uh requires 90,000 BTUs of gas. Now, this sucker can take that 35 pounds of oil, which is a little more than five gallons, and heat it up to frying temperatures in about five minutes flat. Now, there is so much, and I got it for fifty bucks by the way. A Mexican restaurant went out of business uh down at what the time was the World Trade Center, uh, and I bought it there and professional deep fryers now almost always have stainless steel kettles on the inside because they're easier to clean. I found an old black steel one, and because nobody wanted it, and because there was a tiny leak in the bottom of the kettle that I had to braise shut, uh, I got it for 50 bucks.
+
+[19:02] And I wheeled it home in a snowstorm uh and hooked it up, and it's maybe the greatest thing uh I own. I love it. Uh here's the deal people have a misconception about frying. Uh when you have a large deep fryer like that, the oil lasts a lot longer, the food tastes a lot better, uh, and it's a lot it's a lot better. It's not like a small fryer is a smaller version of a real fryer.
+
+[19:26] A real restaurant fryer, um, especially a gas-fired one, uh tube fryer has uh what's called a cold zone. So what happens is first of all, the tubes are very large, and you have a very large uh flow, a very large surface area to heat. So you're not locally overheating the oil anywhere. It also starts nice uh uh convection currents of oil so that it really heats up very, very quickly and very evenly, has amazing recovery. The other thing is is that there's a large area below the tubes where all of the little particles from your food that come off settle.
+
+[19:56] Now, in a normal fryer at home, that stuff just sits at the bottom, scorches, burns, and ruins your oil. In a in a commercial fryer, they sink beneath the tubes into a much colder area of oil so that they don't burn and they don't ruin the rest of your oil. They just settle to the bottom. Then at the end of the night, you open it, you drain your oil, you filter it out, you pour it back in, and you're good to go. So your oil lasts a lot longer.
+
+[20:17] Also, there's nothing on I and by the way, a fry every damn thing in that thing. I fry uh rack of lamb, rack of goat, prime rib, steak, french fries, onion rings, fried chicken, uh basically anything that you want to eat can be fried. The best way to test your oil when you're frying uh to see whether she's still good or not. And yes, it's a woman, Nastasha. I know uh is to take a piece of neutral bread, fry the bread, and then eat the bread, because it soaks up the oil and the bread's very neutral, so it's very easy to test whether you're uh whether it's gone bad.
+
+[20:47] I've never done on eBay or Craigslist, although I'm sure you can. Uh if you live near a major city, you unfortunately have restaurants closing down all the time, uh, and you can get it at auction pretty pretty cheap. I mean, uh you I used to get all my stuff on auction um back before I had kids, and my wife still let me bring made major pieces of kitchen equipment home uh before I lived in a tiny apartment. But anywho, uh okay. And uh uh Gabe writes in while I have you, here's a question uh for the next podcast.
+
+[21:13] How about rotisserie turkey? I know Thanksgiving is behind us, but I was looking for an awesome roasting technique and thought rotisserie would be perfect if you would get the right setup. Does Dave know of any good spit setup uh outdoor wood oven with a side uh heat source like a wood fired oven? And what are the physics of having that pulsive heat that you get from rotisserie? And is it so good on chicken because it's continually being basted as it turns?
+
+[21:33] Okay, I don't know of a good uh rotisserie motor uh normal normally. Uh I built one once a long time ago to do a pig, but all rotisserie motors that I've seen, uh inexpensive ones anyway, are horrible. They suck. Uh and the reason is is the gearing isn't very good. So if you have a bad rotisserie, uh what happens is is you almost never have the meat on a rotisserie perfectly centered.
+
+[21:55] So the rotisserie slows down as it as it's lifting the heavier side of the of the meat over the top. Then it's it usually stops for a second, falls as it goes through the heavier part until the gear catches again and then goes a little faster on the down. So you basically don't have even heating all the way around. It's awful. I don't know why anyone's uh no one's invested in like a simple precision like worm gear drive that can't be overdriven.
+
+[22:20] Uh I used one once with a bow dean, which is an awesome little motor. Uh, and that thing, that sucker was dead on. Like I could have, I could have swung uh, you know, I could have swung a piece of meat entirely on one side and it would have spun evenly. Okay. So that said, I don't know of a good setup.
+
+[22:35] Uh it's all about um it's all about securing the meat and making sure that it doesn't flop around and and that the wingtips or or whatever don't fly off and get burnt. And you we gotta be careful when you're tying it that your string doesn't catch on fire and come off and the wings get burnt. That said, rotisserie is a fan fantastic technique, not because of the pulsive heat, but because you're applying a high average, a high, sorry, instantaneous heat on the one side, right? Uh, which is uh making a good skin or a good crust on whatever you're cooking, but a low average heat because you don't enclose it. You know, that's why you don't want to enclose a rotisserie.
+
+[23:08] And enclosed rotisserie is basically an oven with a broiler on one side. Rotisserie is really uh very akin to low temperature cooking in that you're keeping the average heat input very low, so you're not in cooking the meat. Uh the base, the self-basting helps, I guess, somewhat because it gets a little uh oil on the outside, but I don't know the actual science of the of the basting and what that does. I probably should, I should research it. But uh that said, the trick of a rotisserie is uh trying to get the heat input uh low enough that it doesn't over do too much overcooking of the outside of the meat, but high enough such that it cooks in a reasonable amount of time.
+
+[23:41] Uh and so that's that's the trick. But I don't know of a good wood fire to be great. Uh it's just a question of finding a good rotisserie motor, and I think that's one of the things we might build someday. Okay. Okay.
+
+[23:51] What do you mean? He's not paying attention. I am. Okay. Uh Jason Mulinari writes in about deep fried chicken and also wasabi.
+
+[24:00] Jason, I'm gonna apologize in advance. I don't know the answer to the wasabi question, but we will uh put it out to our readers. Keep up the good work with the podcast and Nastasha, keep hammering. Like that? Keep hammering.
+
+[24:10] A couple of questions. I'm trying to figure out how I can low temp cook chicken prior to deep frying and maintain the same deliciousness. Hopefully, you can get more deliciousness. Essentially, uh cook for insurance as you call it. Uh what that means is is you cook it the uh chicken beforehand, low temp, and then you fry it, and then when you're frying it, you just have to worry about the crust.
+
+[24:26] You don't have to worry about cooking the chicken all the way through. And that's really, really good technique when you want to cook chicken at the same time as French fries, and you don't want to have two separate oil temperatures. Okay. Uh the problem is the crust doesn't come out uh the same uh with um low temp cooking versus regular straight frying. I imagine because I've denatured some of the proteins in the skin and broken down some of the connective tissue.
+
+[24:47] Have you experimented with a precooked fried chicken? Any advice to get the best possible crust slash crunch on it? The main problem seems to be loss of adhesion between the crust and the chicken almost becoming a shell. Okay. Okay, I have the answer for you.
+
+[25:01] I believe, and tell me if I'm wrong, write in and tell me if I'm wrong. But a lot of people have had this problem. The main problem with adhesion of crust on a chicken is because uh the skin is wet. And when you're cooking something in a uh in low temp, you tend to get a soggy kind of uh uh outside of the skin because it's inside of a bag. What you need to do is as soon as you remove the chicken from the circulator, you need to cut it open while it's still blazing hot, put it on a rack and let the skin flash off and form a pellicle on the outside.
+
+[25:34] Okay? Uh, this is why after you brine a chicken before you fry it, you typically put it on a rack and let it dry. I mean, I know Carlos here doesn't do that. Uh Carlo, he doesn't uh Carlo just takes it straight from the brine and puts it in the butt, you know. His recipe, I haven't I haven't tested with it yet, but it goes against all all things I've ever known about fried chicken, but it's delicious, so I'll have to look into it anyway.
+
+[25:55] Uh so you want to form a pellicle, and that's gonna increase the adhesion, a dry thing. Then you're gonna want to go, I do a flour, then I do my uh liquid uh dip, which is uh a buttermilk, egg, baking powder, baking soda, salt, pepper, and then back into the flour. I'm just telling you the steps I use because if you're using a different kind of a breading technique, perhaps it won't work the same way, but it's all about drying the chicken off, and the best way is remove it from the bag when hot, let it dry on a rack, then bread it, then fry it. And uh, you should get the same kind of quality. And second question: why does wasabi taste so much stronger when paired with shellfish?
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+[26:29] Uh it seems that when the same quantity of wasabi is put on uh ebby or a fish, Ebbie, you know, being a sweet shrimp, um the ebbie blows my sinuses up. I don't know. Do you have that experience, uh Nastasha, that it's stronger on uh shellfish? No, I no, I haven't tasted no. I don't know.
+
+[26:45] In other words, like, so on a s on the on the shrimp, he's getting more of a hit than he is on the fish. I don't know. I don't know either. Well, someone's gonna someone better write in or something like that. I did some preliminary searches on it, but that's a tough one to search for in the scientific literature.
+
+[27:01] Really is. Uh that's another one. I I tried to put a call into McGee, but he's on a deadline, so he he he couldn't come in. So then maybe next, maybe next time, maybe maybe for Christmas we can get McGee. You want to get try and get McKee on McGee on our Christmas episode?
+
+[27:12] Sure. Okay. Joe from Chicago writes in about tongue tacos and flan. Hello. I recently tried to impress my girlfriend by making a pumpkin flan in a low-temp water bath and completely failed.
+
+[27:24] Oh, that sucks. My approach was fairly simple. I basically applied Douglas Baldwin's approach to creme brulee to the flam flan custard mixture. Uh Douglas's technique, and Doug Doug Baldwin wrote um a sous vide primer that's on the web, and he wrote a book, and he was working on some of the uh differential equations with Nathan Mirvold for uh cooking times, uh which uh you know our uh our team of uh experimenters might be interested in that you know that are working on that uh science project. Okay.
+
+[27:49] Douglas's technique basically involves blending the various ingredients, pouring into a bag and cooking for 15 minutes at 180 degrees Fahrenheit. He actually cooks uh yeah, I guess a little higher. Agitate the bag, cook it for another 15 minutes, and then distribute it to a service vessel. I went with a pie pan that I applied uh caramel crust to the bottom. Uh so he's doing a flan, so he's gonna invert it.
+
+[28:08] Uh what I had left was a slightly more viscous mixture with some grain to it that did not improve at all after sitting, because Douglas lets his stuff uh sit in a service vessel for in like a ramekin for like four hours to eight hours to supposedly set up. Uh it did not improve after sitting in the fridge. The result was delicious, but not even close to a flan texture. It sort of collapsed into a pile of porridge when I flipped it on the plate. Do you have any temp uh tips for making low temp flan?
+
+[28:31] This technique is way more appealing to me than the traditional oven water bath approach. Okay. So Douglas Baldwin, what he does is he puts all the ingredients for he basically takes a creme anglaise mixture, by the way, and not like a standard uh like uh like a pot de creme or a or a or a custard mix for like a flan, right? And then he uh blends it and then he puts it into a bag, cooks it, uh, and then agitates it in a ziploc bag and then pours it in hope to set. This is never, first of all, uh he cooks it for 30 minutes.
+
+[29:01] Now on his I he you can YouTube Douglas Baldwin and go look at his YouTube and go all the way through it. But he basically he cooks his his custard, his what he calls a custard anywhere between 175 and 180 degrees five degrees Fahrenheit, which is anywhere from a little under 80 degrees Celsius to about 85 degrees Celsius. And he cooks it for a half of an hour. Now I've done many, many, many creme anglaise, which is a very similar mixture in bags in the in the circulator over time. I think half hour is too long.
+
+[29:28] Uh the longer you cook it, it does start getting thicker, so we'll get thicker, but also the egg taste comes out a lot more. So it ends up tasting a lot more like cooked eggs the longer uh you cook it. We try to keep our time between about 15 and um and 20 minutes at you know, in in a bag, at and we always do uh 82 degrees Celsius, uh, which is about 181 degrees uh Fahrenheit. I think 185 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 85 degrees Celsius, is too high. I think it's it's too high.
+
+[29:58] Uh and I think that the other number he gives, 175, which is 80 degrees Celsius, isn't going to set uh in the proper amount uh of time. So I would definitely uh do that. He also does his uh stuff in Ziplocks, and a Ziploc will work at those high temperatures, as he says, uh, but they're very fragile at those temperatures, so you have to be careful. The other problem is that if you do a side-by-side taste test of a uh creme en glaze made in a ziploc versus a creme en glaze made in a vacuum bag, the one in the vacuum bag tastes a lot better, and I think it's because the air that's trapped into the mixture when you're blending it, you're not getting any of that out, and it adds a kind of eggy sulfury taste to it that you don't get if you do it in a full-on vacuum bag. Uh as one of the uh the readers of his uh YouTube thing said, perhaps that when you're taking the bag out to agitate it so it doesn't form any curds uh halfway through the cook, you could crack the bag a little bit and get rid of some of the excess air, and maybe that'll fix some of the problem.
+
+[30:50] Uh, you know, because Douglas says when it happens that that it's mainly water vapor, and there is it is mainly water vapor caused from the increase of heat, but there's also some residual air from when he put it in the blender. Um okay. The other thing is is that aside from the fact that I would do that a creme and glaze in a vacuum bag and not in a ziploc, if you can help it, um a creme brulee uh to me is not done with a stirred kind of custard that way, it's done with a set custard. So I typically use a pot de creme recipe uh which is cooked in in a C vap oven, so it's not agitated at all. In fact, it's it's completely stationary.
+
+[31:25] Uh and the same holds true for a flan. A flan, unlike a creme brulee, which can be eaten out of the uh out of the pot, right? Uh, and I do mine, like I said, in a CVAP. I'll pour the uh the mixture, the custard mixture, into a ramic in, put it in a C vap oven, which is basically a steam uh low temperature steam oven, and I'll cook it at the same temperature that I would in a water bath, but without stirring, and it sets up into a nice creme brulee, I brulee it, it's great. For a flan, you need to add more texture because you have to unmold it.
+
+[31:53] So, first of all, you can't follow his recipe and use egg yolks. You have to use whole eggs so that you get that extra protein in there to have it set so you can uh upend it. Now, I've never done this, so I have no idea whether this would work. But you might be able to uh take a ramekin, uh put or or your pie pan won't work because it's gonna explode in the vacuum. But you could probably put it in a ramekin, uh I guess you do it in a ziploc too, and then put a lid on it and then ziplock it shut underwater and then weight it down so that you're in a water bath, but still in a ramekin.
+
+[32:25] The whole trick is to heat it at an accurate temperature without stirring it. But you're gonna have to go longer if it's not stirred and you're not getting convection with the bag with it moving around, you're gonna have to cook it a lot longer. So uh we typically do around uh you know 80, 82, 80, so between like he does, between 181 and 185 in a steam oven for about 45 minutes in a ramekin, and you should get a good result, and then you should be able to turn it off. So uh did that answer that question? Yeah.
+
+[32:53] Okay, second question. I made uh tacos de lengua, that's tongue, for the same meal. Uh thankfully my girlfriend is as adventurous as I am, and followed Kenji Alt's approach. Uh Kenji sou vives his uh tacos tongue for tacos. He suggests 24 to 48 hours at 170 Fahrenheit, which is 76.6 uh Celsius.
+
+[33:12] So I split the difference and cook my tongue for 36 hours. The results were entirely too mushy for me, but my girlfriend claimed to enjoy it a lot. What are your suggestions if I'm aiming for a texture that has more bite to it? I was thinking about trying 24 hours at 170. Thanks.
+
+[33:25] Joe from Chicago. Even that is too long for me. Look, when you're cooking up at 76.6 degrees, you're basically doing standard braise temperature. So the advantage you're getting from the bag is only a uh having to use less liquid so you can have a more intense tongue fli uh taste and also probably a slightly higher yield. Uh but and you know, you don't have to make as much too as you would in a traditional brace, so you could do a small amount in a bag.
+
+[33:48] So that's all great. But at those temperatures, uh, I wouldn't think you'd have to cook it longer than so if it's if a traditional braise was going to be like four hours, five hours, I would do only do it a couple hours more, like six, seven, eight, nine. You know what I mean? Like not that long. Uh that when you cook something for a long time, it tends to break all the texture down and it can get kind of mushy, as you say.
+
+[34:09] And some people like it that way. I don't. I I I like a little more texture to it. So I would try a radically shorter amount of time, like 12 or 10, uh, and see see how that is. And if it's not, you know, great, then you can uh I would put like a tester in a bag and then have your main bag and then pull one after 10 hours to see whether you like it.
+
+[34:28] And if you like it, go with that. If it's already too mushy, you have to go less. But I think you'll probably be okay with like eight to ten hours at those temperatures. But give me a shot, see what you think. Okay.
+
+[34:37] On the brine subject, I'm unfortunately going to push that brine subject off until next week again because I'm gonna try to get a hold of uh McGee because I also want to have the argument with McGee on the air about whether a brining a turkey causes you to have too much uh salt in the pan drippings and therefore not being able to use the gravy. And I was thinking about it in the shower this morning uh while I was washing my hair because I wash my hair every day, which apparently women and and men who care about their appearance do not. Is that true? Jack. Um, I wash my hair every day.
+
+[35:09] See, that's what I'm saying. I think are you not supposed to? Uh that's what I'm saying. Apparently not. I was told that, like, I guess we're like r regular dudes who wash our hair every day.
+
+[35:18] Because like we grew up washing our hair every day. That's what you do. Exactly. Like you go in the shower and the shampoo is there. And you use it on your hair.
+
+[35:25] Yes. To make your hair clean. Yes. Yeah. Well, women don't do that.
+
+[35:29] Were you aware of that, Jack? No. Yeah, yeah, women don't do that. What the hell, Jack? Yeah, anyway.
+
+[35:35] Now Nastasha gets to bust out the how they lose. Yeah. Don't you ask your ex when you had girlfriends if they wash their hair. I don't know. Anyway, anyway, it's an interesting fact for those of you that don't already know this.
+
+[35:47] But there, like in New York, because New York is where New Yorkers, there's a whole subset of uh men who also apparently care uh that their that their hair has a nice sh shine to it. Supposedly, I guess a non-greased shine, although I don't know how that works. So they do not wash their hair every day. How the hell are they getting into that? Oh, I was washing my hair, I was thinking about it, and I think what happens is uh McGee is expecting you to use a broth uh for your to reinforce the drippings to make your gravy or to do something.
+
+[36:17] I always make a stock and use the stock as the basis of the gravy and reinforce it with the pan drippings. The stock doesn't have any salt in it, and so therefore I'm not getting excess too much salt in my gravy. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Anyway, I want to have this argument with them on the air, and so we'll push off the uh the uh what's it called until until then.
+
+[36:34] Okay, uh Ken also, uh Ken Ingber wrote in, and uh he says, I want to remind you about the cooking issue I raised uh a few months ago regarding the lack of research on oxalate content of food. Uh oxalosis and kidney stones is the problem uh most recently faced for Thanksgiving, uh, because potatoes have a lot of it. Sweet potatoes are worse, cooked carrots and cooked celery are are poisonous to people with this problem, although raw celery seems to be okay for no apparent reason. Uh cranberry sauce is okay, but almonds are disastrous, and the list goes on and on. Uh I'm I more or less made two different meals, one that was low in ox uh oxalates and one that was normal.
+
+[37:07] As I uh said previously, oxalosis seems to be a rare disease, but there are plenty of people who have had kidney stones, i.e. my mom, uh, or are candidates for them, and the docs often say doctors often suggest a low oxalate diet. Uh I'm telling you, if you want to follow a low oxalate diet, good luck. The research and guidance are almost non-existent. Much of what is out there on the internet is from unreliable, pseudo-holistic or nutraceutical sorts of people.
+
+[37:27] Well, charts I have found from hospitals, foundations, and other sites that appear to be reputable, are inconsistent and would love to know more and how to accumulate reliable information. So I did a search again, and I went to the oxalosis and hyperoxaluria foundation, the OHF, and looked at their list of foods, and sure enough, Ken, it is a weird list of foods. And um, I think the problem is is there's not intensive research. First of all, like uh the the oxalate content of a food i is dependent in plant foods, is radically dependent upon kind of where it's grown, how it's grown, the conditions it's grown. Uh and so same with carrots, the calcium content, therefore the oxalate and all that concentration of the inside of a carrot is widely varied depending on where it comes from and how it's grown, the age of maturity, the variety, etc.
+
+[38:06] etc. And so uh because people haven't been doing the research, no one has done the research to try and figure out how to grow something with a predictable amount of oxalate in it. At least I haven't found anything so far. And so when it becomes a big enough deal, perhaps people will uh try to figure out a way, maybe not to reduce it and everything, but at least to make it consistent so that you're gonna know ahead of time what you're gonna go on. For instance, a random one you might not think of.
+
+[38:31] You think of oxalic acid when you think of rhubarbs, so you'd naturally stay away from it. But almonds, which have a very high oxalate content, you wouldn't think about it. So it's very, very weird. Secondly, he writes in uh to keep uh Dave Abreast or some buzz in the consumer coffee circles, uh, there is a new Breville 900 XL espresso maker that just became available in the U.S. The buzz is that because Breville is a major appliance maker, and by the way, Breville is pushing freaking hard.
+
+[38:53] They uh they they are they gave a bunch of stuff to the French Culinary Institute. They were at uh South Beach Food and Wine Festival last year, Nastasha, remember that? They uh they uh were working with Christina Tozzi from Milk Bar. Uh they're pushing hard with all of their appliances. Maybe, yeah, or give us some free crap at least, something anyway.
+
+[39:13] Um so they're pushing hard. I haven't used a lot of their appliances, although I will say that their their uh stand mixer that's trying to compete with KitchenAid comes with the scraper paddle blade, which is nice. You know, you don't have to buy an extra one, which I thought was nice, but I haven't I haven't used it yet. Anyway, the buzz is that because Brevel's a major appliance maker and can manufacture much more cheaply. Breville's $1,200 machine uh probably competes with uh regular commercial machines twice the price.
+
+[39:36] Dual stainless steel boiler boilers, variable pre-infusion, manual and automatic brew settings, a nice porta filter, really aimed at the budding barista types, um, and uh it seems like it has adequate steam pressure. There's not a full review on Coffee Geek yet, but you know, what do you think? I I looked at a uh I looked at a uh what's it called uh YouTube on it, and it seems okay. You don't really want stainless steel for your boiler. Most people want brass because, well, I guess here's the thing: all the old, all the old uh issues people had with espresso machines are really based on what that espresso machine was meant to do and and how it was designed.
+
+[40:09] Old espresso machines are designed uh to throw away a huge amount of heat and therefore become stable by taking in a bunch of uh energy and then throwing a bunch of it away, and that's how they gain stability. Uh now that everything's controlled uh with microprocessors, that's not the same reason you don't need that anymore. So you probably don't need a big brass boiler, stainless steel boiler is probably great and very sanitary and all that. It also has a heated uh um head, which means that separately heated head, which means it I mean it could be good. I'd love to try uh a couple shots with it.
+
+[40:38] Maybe if Breville was one of our sponsors, they could give us one of those machines and we could test it out. What do you think, Jack? Yeah, let's do it. Sound like it sounded like a good thing? Yes.
+
+[40:45] All right. Uh now we're gonna do have to wrap up in two minutes because we have a one o'clock show. Uh two minutes. Two minutes. All right, so we'll leave with this.
+
+[40:53] Listen, call in your questions next week uh for for Christmas related stuff and for your last minute uh Christmas shopping. I appreciated the Friar uh comment. That was a good one. Uh Colin wrote in with some uh typical Colin uh lunacy, and we'll I guess we'll end on that. Uh Colin says, uh dearest David, Nastasha, and Jack.
+
+[41:12] Uh and Carlos, you know, you've got to call Carlos. Really, Carlos? Wow, he didn't say that, he just called you out, but I'm saying I'm at here's how I suggest getting a rough number of listeners. I agree that an online poll is a good way to collect data. Something simple like, did you listen to cooking issues episode 66?
+
+[41:26] Well, did you? Well, did you? Uh do you regularly listen to cooking issues? Of course, people wouldn't answer that. And then uh, and then here's the weird one.
+
+[41:33] What do you think of the uh hyper advanced civilizations of the future will think when they unearth recordings of this direct that Dave Arnold spews into the universe? Wow. Wow, harsh. Uh okay. Uh okay, here's the thing.
+
+[41:46] He also thinks that what we should do is I should sketch a picture of Nastasha's vegan face, sign it, and then offer it as a prize to a random poll taker. We should sketch a picture of the face she just made after hearing that. Yeah. Yeah. He said, and he says, granted, that prize has a bias towards regular listeners who listeners who know what a vegan face is.
+
+[42:03] I think even if you don't know, you would gotta know that a vegan face can't be a good thing, right? No offense to vegans out there. Am I right? Well, vegans would think it's a nice face. Yeah.
+
+[42:13] There are probably some nice vegan faces out there. But not Nastasha's vegan face. No. Alright. Vegan face cooking issues.
+
+[42:34] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Today I'm actually not in Robertas uh in Brooklyn and Bushwick uh as I normally am because for the first time in my life, my bike failed me in a time of need.
+
+[0:44] And my tire uh went completely flat in an unreparable way, right as I was off uh off to the studio. So I'm joining you live from my living room on a phone. Uh also not with me today, strangely, is Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, because even though this is our holiday edition, uh she decided to hightail it out to her actual holiday. She's in California with her family right now. So the only person, I don't know if Carlo is there, uh Carlos is there rather, but Jack, our intrepid engineer, is chilling live in Bushwick and on the radio show.
+
+[1:18] Howdy, Jack. Hey, we're both here. Yeah. Oh, hey, howdy. So listen, who's our sponsor today?
+
+[1:24] Uh it's it's Modernist Cuisine, but uh I'll I'll have to read that copy, I think. Yeah, and you want to do it after the first break? Yeah, I'll do it after the first break. Modernist Pantry, sorry. All right, all right.
+
+[1:34] Well, you know, Modernist Cuisine, the great book, and we'll talk about that later. Modernist Pantry, the place where you can buy the ingredients you read about in the book. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. Okay, so uh calling all your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[1:47] That's 718497 2128. We'll see whether we can juggle me being on the phone and you calling in on the phone. That'll be fun. Okay. Uh Matthew writes in with a granita question.
+
+[1:58] Hey, David Nastash, I was wondering if you had any advice on making a granita at home without any special equipment, i.e. an ice cream or sobe ice cream machine or sorbet maker. I've read a few recipes online which call for putting the fruit and syrup mix in a pan and stirring it periodically as it freezes. Is there any way to improve on this technique without forking out $4,000 for a paco jet? The specific granita I'm trying to make is blood orange.
+
+[2:19] Thanks, Matthew. Alright, well look. The deal with uh a granita, right, is that it's supposed to have a grainy kind of a texture. Granita, right? So uh it's not so much of an issue that uh its texture kind of kind of is is not good.
+
+[2:37] I mean, I look I'm not a giant huge fan of I have to admit, of the granita. Uh I much prefer like a smoother thing like uh uh a sorbet. Um so let's pretend like you want to make a sorbet for a minute. Then I would get uh something, if you don't want to spend a lot of money, I would get something like a champion juicer, freeze everything rock, rock, rock, rock hard, and then put it through a champion juicer with a brine plate attached to it, and uh and you can even do that with um, you know, like frozen fruits and whatnot, and you can get out, put sugar in, and you can get out uh passable sorbet. And I guess if you if you if you decrease the sugar content, it's gonna be icier, and it's gonna have an icier texture and it'll taste more like a granita.
+
+[3:15] The the periodic freezing technique that they uh you're using is basically the idea is you're trying to break up and fluff the crystals as they're forming. Harold McGee is uh very popular of sorry, Harold McGee is uh very interested in this uh thing called um uh needle ice cream, pin needle ice cream, which is an old, old, old French thing. It's an actual ice cream, uh with you know with milk and and whatnot in it, uh cream, fat and all that, but it is supposed to have very long uh crystals in it. And so you stir it very, very periodically and try to maintain these kind of large crystals. So slow uh slow freezing with periodic stirring is going to give large granito like crystals uh and you know basically making with an ice cream machine or blending a solid thing like a Paco jet you're never gonna get a Paco jet texture but you don't want it you want a granita texture.
+
+[4:03] So try uh yeah try either a champion juicer or hell even try take uh the cubes blend them and then put them back in the fridge and harden them up a little bit and uh see how that works. Let me know let me know what what goes on. I should study granitas more but it's just not my uh it's not my cup of tea although Paco jets are amazing. I love them. Anyway, okay.
+
+[4:22] Um Rolf writes in uh dear Miss Hammer fortunately she's not here she can't even listen she's on a plane right now from uh I think she's she transferred so check this out. She's decided, right, that um she's the cheapest holiday person in the in the world. So she's flying out now with like eight eighteen connections, right? So she it's basically it's taking her like three days and four nights to get from New York to LA because of the number of connections she chose to get because she's so cheap. But even worse than that, she's flying back on and she's Christian and she's flying back on Christmas day.
+
+[4:56] On Christmas Day. She's yeah right? Wow. And it's because did I already mention this last thing it's because she's so cheap. Right she says it's because w it's what I pay her.
+
+[5:05] But really it's because she's so cheap, right, that uh that she w wouldn't do it any other role. And I was like, but you're gonna make your dad drive you after Christmas dinner to the airport. It's kinda crazy, right? Anyway, whatever. I I won't talk too much about it because she's not here to defend herself.
+
+[5:22] Not that she ever does, but there you go. Okay. So uh Dave recently asked for ideas for cooking related holiday gifts. Perhaps he has recommended favorites for a good value thermocouple thermometer. Actually Ralph, I uh I don't.
+
+[5:37] I'm not super I've never had a thermometer where I said, wow, I love that. You know what I mean? It's it's uh I've had plenty of them break. Um I've used uh multimeter based uh thermometers which are very cheap. Uh I've used you know all those things.
+
+[5:56] I've never been I've never been super super happy. I mean thermocouple if you buy a a dedicated thermocouple thermometer they're typically they used to be expensive. They're getting cheaper and cheaper. I mean the X Tech stuff it seems pretty cheap uh and it's okay. A lot of the stuff I've had uh you know break it really depends on on what you need and what kind of a a cost uh you're looking for I mean the good thing about thermocouple thermometers as opposed to the other types they're not actually extraordinarily accurate you have to calibrate them out of the box but what's nice about them is that you can get loads of different probes.
+
+[6:27] You know the ones that that we use uh to penetrate the bag for sous v stuff the hypodermic probes can get pricey you know they're they start at about uh eighty sixty to eighty dollars and usually run up over over about a hundred but the good news with one of with a thermocouple is that you can go on McMaster McBaster dot com and just order thermocouple wire and make your own thermocouples. In fact I have a post on the blog from like three years ago on uh making your own thermocouples. It's really cheap and I I do that a lot when I have to test a lot of a lot of different things. If you need a computer uh data acquisition. That stuff has gotten really cheap.
+
+[7:03] I have a uh uh you know, a DAQ digital, whatever it is, acquisition, blah, blah, blah, uh, from um measurement computing. It costs 150 bucks and puts eight channels of thermocouples into my computer. Pretty cool. Anyway, uh, another one, a good quality immersion blender. I'm not really happy with any immersion blender, to be honest.
+
+[7:22] I don't have uh I don't own one of the the band mixes, although people seem to think they're nice. You know, as many of you who have ever met me known, uh one of the things I'm going to be building with the new company that I'm starting uh with Dave Chang, which is Bub, by the way, official now. All the documents have been signed. It's an official company now, it exists. Yay.
+
+[7:41] Uh that uh is one of the things I'm gonna be tackling because there's a lot to be done out there in the uh immersion blender world. Pressure cooker, I go with Coon Recon. They also buy pressure cooker. I know they're expensive, uh, but I've used in many different kinds in many different price ranges, and I just like the Coon Recons. And uh they've linked to the blog a couple times, but they've never given me a damn thing.
+
+[8:05] Can you believe that, Jack? Can you believe that? Never give me a damn thing. The number of times I pumped out for them. Anyway, uh I would use them, and the reason is is because they're non-venting.
+
+[8:13] Uh the pans themselves are fairly high quality. I've owned mine and it's been through continuous uh abuse for uh you know years and years and years. I broke off the handle, but it still works like a like a champ. Um, I don't like the ones that vent because I think that they reduce the quality of uh flavors of things like stocks, although they're fine for some applications. I've used the giant American pressure canners and I just put one, uh gave it to the guys at Sandbar to use to make a large, large, large quantities of pressure cooked eggs.
+
+[8:45] Um, but not so good for home use because it's just so dang big. Uh I like the electric of the electric one. I mean, I like the Queznot one that I have. The exception is that you can't use it out of the box because you have to modify it because the temperature is not high enough. For some reason, they decided to set the temperature below the standard 15 PSI for a pressure cooker and so I had to go in and modify it.
+
+[8:59] Again, notes on the blob. Don't I can't really recommend that you do it because of course it's not safe and all that. But anyway, you can see how I did it on the blob. For a cream whipper infusion thing, I mean ISI, look, I know they're expensive and I have actually done work for them so you know ev you know everything uh above board here but I've also used crappy the last time I was in Columbia, the country I uh I did a demo and they got me some off brand like whipper to use and this thing just wouldn't seal right. It was a complete nightmare.
+
+[9:39] So I think it's probably worth the extra money for uh the ISI on that just because I wouldn't think it would be worth the extra money and then when I've used crappy ones, they've leaked on me. Um vacuum sealer, I mean I like the mini pack, the small one. If you have the $1500 to spend, I go ahead and get the mini pack because it's got the nicest chamber size of any vacuum uh machine in its class. But still that's like you're forking out between $1500 and two two grand for it. Um but you know mm there you have it.
+
+[10:08] Um and digital scale is the last one. It's a tough one on a digital scale because everything depends on what you want or need. Uh you know so the question is if you're going to do hydrocholoride work, you should be able to measure something down to the tenth gram because occasionally that's going to come up. Right? But then on the other hand if you do a lot of work with meats you're gonna want something that can weigh many kilos.
+
+[10:30] Now, I have an old scale uh from you know that I brought off of eBay that was you know kind of like a it's a weird scale. It does 12 kilograms by the tenth gram, and plus it's a county scale. I think it's sick, but the problem with a similar capabilities today, you'd have to spend thousands of dollars on something that had multiple balance ranges so you could do small amounts and large amounts. Um so what I would do instead is just get a good quality wash down scale. There's some waterproof scales uh from A and D.
+
+[11:00] I haven't used them, so I don't know whether they're any good, but that's a really nice feature. You can throw it in the dishwasher, they claim, and then get a uh get a large one for things like meats and a small one. Uh things that bother me about scales is when they turn off. I like a scale that plugs in and stays on forever. This way, if you're measuring stuff uh into uh container and you walk away uh and you come back, uh you still have your measurement, which is great if you forgot something, or if you're called away for a minute, or if something catches on fire on the stove and you have to walk away and look at it, you come back, you don't want to have to re-weigh the thing that was partially weighed in there.
+
+[11:34] So I hate a scale that turns off. Anyway, uh just my not specific brand recommendation, but just what I would look for. All right. So uh a couple of weeks ago, you know, there's an ongoing uh tech, is it high school project? It's high school, right?
+
+[11:50] The high school project on uh temperatures? I think I think it was a high school project, yeah. Yeah, high school, anyway. So uh I uh mentioned this uh program, the Sue Vosh, which is basically an iPhone iPad application that allows you to uh uh check what temperature um you know something's gonna be, depending on its on what it is, on the temperature of your water bath, etc. etc.
+
+[12:10] Anyway, the guys wrote back uh they heard that I mentioned it, and so they said this. Uh thanks for your mention on the show a couple of weeks ago. We're always looking for suggestions on how to make our application even better, and I think your suggestion about not changing temperature settings when the food is changed is a good one. It's actually something we've gone back and forth on. So basically the the problem is that there's all these parameters, and if you change one, like, hey, instead of changing it, like maybe I didn't want to cook chicken, but I want to keep the water bath the same.
+
+[12:36] I want to cook fish or something like that. Not that you'd ever change from chicken to fish, me, whatever, but it just changes all the things. Anyway, uh some users like you want to do a lot of exploring and toggle all kinds of settings one by one. Others want to pick uh chicken, fish or whatever, and have the app giving them a reasonable starting point for temperature, blah, blah, blah. Like you, I personally tend to be the tinkering type, but a lot of our users have told us that they they wanted to start with uh normal settings.
+
+[12:58] But that doesn't stop us from trying to figure out how to please everyone. Uh I think we may do an up uh upcoming update that has auto temperature selection on food disabled if you've gone into the advanced and allow any temperature mode. Anyway, they thank us for spending the five dollars, which you really should, because I am a cheap, cheap bastard. To get me to spend five dollars is a very difficult thing to do. Uh and they give a PS, uh I put together a blog post and a video on the fast cook method for eggs in a circulator.
+
+[13:22] And uh if you go to CV.com and look at it, they want to know what I think about it. Well, I'll tell you what I think. So what we're talking about here, for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, is uh an immersion circulator, which most of you know, is a is a device that keeps water at a very accurate temperature. And the reason you want to do there's a couple of reasons you want to do that. But one reason is you can achieve um textures uh or temperatures all the way through uh a piece of food, and uh and uh that allows you to achieve textures that you couldn't otherwise achieve.
+
+[13:50] For instance, on eggs, right? The difference between a 62 degrees Celsius egg, right, which is runny, that's a poached egg, right, with a very kind of custardy soft white and a runny uh yolk. The difference uh between that and a fully set egg yolk, but it's still very creamy, is only two degrees, sixty-four degrees Celsius. So the window is very, very small, right? And in a large uh chicken egg, right, uh I tend to cook them for one hour, right?
+
+[14:18] So at one hour, I know that the inside of the very inside of the yolk has gotten up to the basically up to the temperature of the bath, and I can pull the egg out and I'm done, right? And that's a typical thing. But a lot of people, there's two things that are going on. One, some people don't want to wait around for uh the eggs to cook for an hour because they're impatient weasels. I don't know why.
+
+[14:39] Anyway, uh and the other thing is perhaps you want a firmer egg white than given with those uh 62 degree eggs, for instance, or 63 degree eggs, which is where most people are cooking. Well, I did a bunch of charts like six, six, seven years ago, something like that, uh, that showed what happened if you used a small temperature delta. So for instance, um take uh set your bath at 65 degrees Celsius, right? And then put your egg in, and put like we put like 10 eggs in. And we pulled them every couple of minutes and looked at them and found that you could in fact get a uh uh an egg white that was like a 65 degree egg, which was our favorite at the time, right, and a yolk that was very similar to a 63 by timing things very exactly.
+
+[15:30] These guys have uh gone ramp that up even further and use like a 70 Celsius or 77 Celsius, I forget, uh water bath, and they're cooking the egg for only 18 minutes, and the the idea is to get a kind of runny textured yolk. All right, here are my issues with it with the technique. One timing now is very, very important. So if you have a particular water bath and you're only putting in like four eggs for you and your spouse, let's say, then uh it's gonna work fine because you're gonna do it the same way every time, right? So even though there's carryover heat and the temperature of the egg yolk is gonna go up a little bit, and the outside of the egg yolk is cooked a little bit more than you'd want, uh, and the inner side, you know, a little under whatever, right?
+
+[16:13] That's all gonna be fine because you can do it the same way every time. The problem from a restaurant point of view is if you're doing a hundred eggs, it's very, very hard to make sure that all the variables are the same every single time. Because a circulator, right, going at a thousand watts is never going to be powerful enough to come back up to temperature right away if you drop a huge uh batch of eggs into it, right? So this is a technique that's mainly meant for smaller batch cooking. Now, on the super flip side, it's become very popular in high-end restaurant circles to go with uh uh boiling water, right?
+
+[16:49] Because they want a traditional overcooked rubbery white on the outside and uh creamy center. And so what these guys are doing is they're basically saying, hey, look, there's one temperature that I know I can maintain hardcore. Screaming boil. And they can put it in and they time it very exactly, and then you can do more batches because it's fairly easy to maintain a super high consistent temperature because you're just slamming the heat into the water and boiling it as hard as you can. Uh so anyway, these are two different ideas, but uh, those are my thoughts.
+
+[17:24] So with that, Jack, why don't we go to the first commercial break? Calling your questions to 718497, 2128, that's 7184972128 cooking your shoes. Santa Claus. Go straight to the ghetto. Hit job your randy.
+
+[17:42] Go straight to the ghetto. Santa Claus. Go straight to the ghetto. Feel every stock in you find. The kids are going to love you so.
+
+[18:04] Leave a tour for Johnny. Leave a dog for Mary. Leave something for the baton it. And don't forget about Garry. Go straight to the ghetto.
+
+[18:25] Santa Claus. Go straight to the ghetto. Tell him James Brown sent you. Wow. Wow, Jack.
+
+[18:37] Good call on the James Brown. I have a James Brown Christmas album. Yeah, it's awesome. Have you have you heard the entire James Brown Christmas album? I think there might be several.
+
+[18:46] I have one. And at the end of the song, he starts screaming, it's called something like, you know, Merry Christmas, Christmas time. At the end of it, he's screaming about how he he loves all the sands because they brought his record and they saw a show. And saw his show. Wow.
+
+[19:10] So remember sitting, like I have it in the Christmas rotation, and you know, uh, and we're sitting around, and yeah, it's like, you know, Bing Flo being all this stuff, and all of a sudden James Brown just comes on and starts screaming about Merry Christmas, Christmas time. You know, it's awesome. Good good business. Oh, yeah. I didn't think anyone else listened to the James Brown Christmas.
+
+[19:28] Cheers to the James Brown Christmas. Uh oh, sorry, you gotta read the uh promo, yeah. Oh, I actually keep going. Alright, I'll keep going. Anytime you want, just browse in and get the promo.
+
+[19:38] Okay, make it up. What are they giving away this week? Not sure. Not sure. Alright, we'll we'll handle it later.
+
+[19:44] Okay. So Aaron writes in with more suggestions on uh vacuum machines cheap because everybody look everybody knows. Everybody wants a inexpensive vacuum machine. Everybody wonders why. Like chamber vacuum machines cost eight zillion dollars.
+
+[20:00] I'll tell you why. One, they don't make that that many of them. That's one. Two, there's a lot of stainless steel in them because they're stainless steel uh restaurant grade. And three, all the good ones have very expensive vacuum pumps in them, right?
+
+[20:14] And the company that makes uh the majority of vacuum pumps for commercial vacuum machines, a company called Busch out of Germany, and the pumps are just really, really, really solid. And a good chunk of the money you're spending is actually for the pump. And you know, if you buy a crap you're they're they're very good in that they can withstand a lot of contamination in the uh in the oil because of the uh vapor that you're boiling, the uh liquid that you're boiling off of your uh product as you're vacuuming it, etcetera, etc. without breaking, and they're just really like, you know, they're the tanka trucks of assuming Tonka's still good, I have no idea, maybe Tonka's crap now. But they're the tanka trucks of uh, you know, vacuum pumps for that kind of a uh an application, and they just cost a lot of money.
+
+[20:59] Right? And so everyone's going around looking for for cheaper alternatives. I've used refrigeration vacuum pumps, and they're okay, they eventually fail. Um, but uh you know, everyone wants super cheap. Well, we all know, much as I actually have met them, they seem like nice people, people that make the food saver.
+
+[21:14] We all know that the vacuum is kind of weak. Well, there's uh another contender out there, uh Ziploc, you know, from uh SC Johnson SC Johnson Wax, I believe is the corporation. They make a little vacuum sealer, and Aaron writes in and says, Is the dang thing any good? I went on the Amazon and it's it's available now for like six bucks. You can buy it for like six bucks.
+
+[21:37] Uh I don't know. I don't know whether it's any good. I've never tried it. It's never going to be a good enough vacuum to uh to to use for uh you know, doing uh vacuum infusion, things like that, which is what I mainly am wine the vacuum for. I mean I'm sure it's really, really good for bagging a muffin without crushing it, so you can throw it in a freezer in an individual Ziploc uh and not get uh weird freezer burn around.
+
+[22:02] I mean, right now I do that with a straw. For anything else, I just use Ziploc bags and uh dip them in water as I back and I get uh very good results with no leaking. So I mean, tell me how it works, Aaron, when you get it, or if anyone else has extensive experience with the Ziploc vacuum, uh write in and and tell us. Hey Dave. What did you say?
+
+[22:23] Did you know today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has the solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[22:53] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry values your feedback, and to encourage it, they've now added product reviews to their website. Any customer who visits the site to post a review before next week's show will get a free ten dollar gift certificate.
+
+[23:15] Good toward the purchase of anything in the store. Let Chris and company know what you love or what you'd improve about their products or service and help other customers by sharing your experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today for all your modernist cooking needs. Do they ever come by the station ever? No.
+
+[23:33] Anyone ever meet them? We should hang out with them sometime. Where where the hell are they located anyway? That's a great question. Alrighty.
+
+[23:43] So it's still time to call in your holiday related questions too. 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Pedro writes in about fish. Hey Dave and Nastasha, first.
+
+[23:53] I'm a big fan of the show and the show's soundtrack. That that's all Jack nowadays, by the way, Pedro. I rarely make any requests. Nastash can't be bothered. She's texting on the phone the whole time, so it's pretty much all Jack.
+
+[24:02] Am I right? That's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. If any of you uh ever want the pleasure, you should really come on a t any Tuesday and watch Nastasha's vegan face while she is uh texting away and uh giving me dirty looks, and you can be served pizza by Indie Jesus, who's actually changed his garb.
+
+[24:20] He's more wild west, Jesus the last time I saw him. Have you seen him today, Jack? You're not there anymore. Uh okay. So, uh Pedro has a quick fish.
+
+[24:31] Sometimes when I buy it, we have a caller. That's extremely free. What happened? We have a caller. Oh, we have a caller?
+
+[24:37] Alright, we'll cut back to Pedro. I'll get back to you one minute. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, how's it going, Dave? It's Brian.
+
+[24:43] Hey, Brian. Hey, um, wanted to let you know I got back from my trip and I got through customs um just fine. I got my spices, I got some uh some dried meats from from my trip. Um so thanks for the thanks for uh the the tips or or you didn't really have any seat characters. You said just go for it and see what happens.
+
+[25:05] And nothing happened to you at all? No, there was a little there was I I I I went through Newark and there was a little dog, one little dog that was sniffing sniffing around, but uh but the dog didn't didn't sniff my stuff, or at least I didn't see the dog sniff my my my stuff and I just went right through. No problem. Are you uh was the meat vacuum packed? It was vacuum packed.
+
+[25:28] I think that I think that's the key. Yeah, I have bad luck with little dogs. I'm more of a big dog guy. Me yeah, well, me me too, but in this case I I I got I got lucky. So uh little dogs.
+
+[25:40] So what what do you what do you speak back if you don't mind telling me? Um I got I got some of those um omani or looming what they're called. The uh the some of those dried limes. Um I got some um some some dried hissop, uh you know, wild hitsop and uh some some wild sage. And um I got got some uh what what looks like the um the besturma and um uh also some uh some other dried sausages.
+
+[26:08] Nice. Well I'm glad I'm glad you made that. Did you write it on your declaration form? I I didn't. So that's all of my smuggling friends, I believe so I forget who was on the show when we were talking about it, but uh they all basically write it on the form.
+
+[26:26] This way if they're caught, they can say, Well, I wrote it on the forum, I just didn't, you know, blah blah blah. So you d really did luck out on that one. Yeah, I I I did. So maybe maybe you know, next time I'll I'll write on the declaration for him. I I did bring some cheeses back from Quebec that were were vacuum sealed uh the last time, but um you know, coming from Canada, they don't they don't they don't care in check quite as much as I I think from some other countries.
+
+[26:50] No, apparently going to Canada the customs can be brutal. This is very weird. I I don't know, look, my son who's uh nine, I apologize for bringing this up, but no, the actually not the nine year old, the uh six year old. He uh he's gotten into comic books. And did you know that there was a guy arrested for uh having a Japanese uh manga uh cartoon comic book and he's uh from America and he's facing a year in prison because they deemed the comic book to be uh child pornography.
+
+[27:19] Strange, huh? Wow. Yeah, there's an American dude chilling in a Canadian jail right now because of a comic book. Because of a Japanese comic book. Yeah, because of a Japanese comic book.
+
+[27:30] Yeah, right. So he got he got dinged with child pornography possession. Apparently Canadians hate look, it's not my style either, but apparently the Canadians hate write uh uh that style of comic book. At least the customs officials do. I mean the Canadians themselves, maybe they love it.
+
+[27:46] I don't know. Anyway, thought I'd mention that. Weird weird fact. All right. Wow.
+
+[27:51] But yeah, no comics for me. Um but while I'm here, two I got I got two questions. One is why don't you guys give a little little West Coast Love and uh play some Tower of Power occasionally. Jack, can you do that for us? Oh sorry, yes.
+
+[28:07] Definitely. Love Tower of Power. I saw them with uh Ray Charles like fifteen years ago. Really? Wow.
+
+[28:15] What a what a what an opportunity. Yeah. Good business. That sounds cool. Um but I got a I got a cooking question here for you.
+
+[28:22] Um so it's um it's citrus season and I want to make some of my own marmalades with um the great uh great fruits we we have out here. Um you got any tips? Marmalade, yeah. We got great citrus at the time of year right now. Well, I mean the real question is how much of the bitterness of the peel do you want in, right?
+
+[28:46] I mean that's the main thing. I mean, so what I would I would do is I would separate the flesh out from the from the uh rind, right? And then treat them separately. And then um, you know, you could do the you could do the hey, if you were real if you look, it depends. Some people they actually like the the albedo, the light part to be in there a little bit, uh and some people like uh more of that bitterness or less of that bitterness.
+
+[29:07] But if you want it to be if you wanted to make the world's most baller marmalade, like seriously straight up baller marmalade, what I would do is uh peel the uh peel them, right, uh carefully, uh like score and peel them off, then soak the uh peels in a solution of pectin X SPL and water, which you get can you can buy that apparently now at modernistpantry.com. I've never tried that, I have my own supply. But anyway, uh you soak them in like four grams per liter of that stuff, and um then you take a tooth a toothbrush or uh or a scrubby and you just wipe all the albedo off. Gone. Then you can sliver the peels and they're perfect.
+
+[29:45] Right? But they can be long. So normally you can only get thin slicing of perfect peel that way. But you can get kind of like l like larger strips. You can make them whatever is gonna taste good in the marmalade.
+
+[29:55] Uh and then, you know, cook, you can then you can blanch them if you want, if they're too bitter for you, but they probably won't be uh bitter, that is, and then um you can um make your the marmalade uh base separately and then fold in the uh peel afterwards. That's kind of bubble, right? That sounds pretty good. But the question would be, you know, when you use the enzymes, doesn't it take away some of the pectin, which gives makes the marmalade thick. Right.
+
+[30:20] Yeah, well the question is So I'm gonna have to add pectin back in separately, you know, from the you know, like from the box. Yes, you could do that. Um I thought about how much pectin you'd be removing, but you're gonna boil the you're gonna boil the citrus down, and the question is, is there enough in just the regular pulp without the albedo to do it for you? I would bet there is, but if not, you can always build it with a little bit of pectin. I mean, that's where they get it from.
+
+[30:50] You know what I mean? Like they get it from the citrus peel. Either that or from apple. So like most of the commercially available pectin we get's either citrus or apple. I mean, but if you want it, I mean like it's worth getting the extra.
+
+[31:00] I mean, I wouldn't feel bad because no one's gonna know how you did it. You know what I mean? It's gonna be sweet. Okay. Sounds like uh I gotta get my hands on some some uh pectanex here.
+
+[31:12] Yeah, yeah. Uh it's a good start, and plus, you know, then you can use it for the French fry recipes, use it for clarification. I know that most of the clarification stuff that I have uh requires a centrifuge, but I'm working on a new technique. I read a paper on a technique called electroflotation and just flotation in general, where they basically make a little electrolysis setup and they throw it in the bottom of a uh of a a vat of of stuff that's not clarified, and then you turn on the electricity and it makes tiny hydrogen bubbles, and the tiny hydrogen bubbles float up, and as they float up they carry the stuff all of the uh impurities with it so you could uh dope it with SPL and then you can clarify liquids with uh with hydrogen bubbles but I haven't tested it yet. I've built a rig but it's I've been so damn busy I haven't tested it yet.
+
+[31:59] Wow that sounds cool. And that'll be a home setup I can do? Yeah so I'm thinking that I don't know whether I could commercialize that to the new business especially because the people who wrote the paper might already have a patent down on it. I don't know. But it's definitely the kind of thing where you could probably build it for pretty cheap.
+
+[32:15] If it works you could probably build it for pretty cheap. I mean the trick with electroflotation is tiny tiny tiny bubbles. So for instance um I was wondering could you just take an aquarium pump and do it? But the problem is the bubbles in an aquarium pump, even with those little centered stones is just too the bubbles are too large. So the question is how to make tiny tiny bubbles and that's why um electrolysis is good because they use very thin wires.
+
+[32:40] They basically they use a uh the the one that they used in the paper that I read was carbon like a graphite carbon not graphite carbon uh rods and uh a stainless steel top and the stainless steel I was just there it's producing the hydrogen and they use very very fine wires and those very very fine wires made a very fine bubble size and so it didn't really disturb. You don't want turbulence, you just want lots of little bubbles rising. But with the aquarium pump can't you just put on a uh a fit or filter well it's po it's possible. I mean the thing is, in the in one of those, what's happening is it's the bubble the bubble generation is happening from the holes, right? And in in the in the mesh, the bubble generation is happening from the wires itself.
+
+[33:27] So uh the the problem is is could you could you get holes in uh in a porous medium that uh aren't gonna cause bubbles that coalesce right away. Do you know what I'm saying? Whereas with wires, very fine wires can be spaced far enough apart to prevent immediate coalescence of the bubbles. I think that's the issue. Right.
+
+[33:56] I think you want like a constant just upflow of gentle tiny, tiny bubbles for this thing to work. And if you look up on the web, you can look up uh uh you know, if you have access to the the scientific stuff, elect electro flotation is the technique. Okay, electroflication. All right. And uh could I keep um I'm still looking for things that people can do if they don't have a setter fusion.
+
+[34:21] Yeah, that's an expensive item. Yeah, and it's I don't have space. What? I don't have the space. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[34:30] So so this one I'm trying to build one in one of those uh you know, you go to Solo Tab and you buy one of those things that's meant to to uh uh store pasta. I'm trying to build it in one of those, see whether it works. Very narrow kind of contain round container. Yeah, narrow, tall, right? And uh and just you drop it in the bottom and you spell you know, I like it's gonna take a bunch of tests.
+
+[34:53] Like that's that's the kind of thing that if I still had the intern program running at the FCI, I would just have someone do it. But since I'm you know not there every day, I don't have that program running anymore, so I don't have anyone that can do any testing when I'm not there. You know what I mean? So it's just I haven't had time. Oh, is is the school selling Pecan X anymore?
+
+[35:11] Is uh Yeah, I believe uh Erve Molivare, uh M A L I V E R T. Uh so it'll be H Mollyver at French Culinary dot com. And he he still has it, yeah. I just saw it there yesterday. Oh, great.
+
+[35:25] All right. Thanks, Dave. Happy hollow. Hey. Happy holidays, thanks for calling in.
+
+[35:29] Uh, Jack, should we go to our second commercial break? Uh yeah, let's do that. All right, call them all your questions too. 718497, 2128. That's 718497 2128.
+
+[35:46] Five long years, we have been together. Your love and understanding has brought us to stormy weather. I must admit, girl, I haven't always been good. But you stuck by me, just like you said you would. Hey, I know that enough is enough.
+
+[36:11] But you shouldn't be talking about turning loose might be right to see. The wrong decision will spawn hardly. Don't change horses in the middle of a stream. Get it up, get up. That would be an extremely bad call to change your horse in the middle of a stream.
+
+[36:44] Extremely bad call. At least, you know, if you're actually fording a stream. Of course, if the horse was sinking and drowning you, right? Like if the horse was literally dying and sucking you down to the bottom of the river instead of swimming, then maybe a good idea to change the horse in the middle of the stream. Maybe the only choice.
+
+[37:01] Yeah, so I mean I think like they like that phrase like, you know, don't change, Barbara Mint should be uh, unless uh that change is going to prevent you from dying. Of course. Yeah. If if the horse is actually worse than no horse at all, then changing horse is pretty good idea. You know?
+
+[37:17] It's one of those things. Anyway. Uh but you know, I mean, I understand. You don't get rid of an a marginally okay horse. Like if there's like a stellar horse next to you swimming, and you're like, Man, that horse is a badass, and mine is only, you know, kind of okay, then yeah, stay on the okay horse.
+
+[37:31] Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. And whenever I think of this, I always I don't know, I uh I shouldn't I'm not gonna get into politics. Anyway, won't get into politics on the show. Not okay, do it.
+
+[37:39] Okay. So uh back to Pedro and his fish question. Uh by the by the way, uh so we're gonna have one more song going on, right? You're gonna get us one really awesome holiday song for the for the outro check. That was Tower of Power for the last caller.
+
+[37:52] Yeah, yeah, but you're gonna for the last on the way out, are we gonna play like some hardcore Christmas stuff or what? Oh yeah, definitely. Okay, cool. All right. Anyway, Pedro and his fish.
+
+[38:03] Okay. Sometimes when I buy fish, the flesh is extremely soft and the tissue looks like it's falling apart. I know it's not because the fish is old. I know how to judge freshness pretty well. And I'll buy my fish from a small fisherman's club that only sells that day's catch.
+
+[38:17] Also, this seems to happen much more frequently with Atlantic mackerel and bluefish. Do you know why this happens and how to avoid it? I know the fish are caught using nets and not blood out, so could this be related to rigor mortis? Well, Pedro, I bet it is, because I mean, uh we've had this discussion before, but everyone who grew up in the northeast and like hung around with people that fish know that back in the day, uh people didn't like bluefish so much because it didn't keep and it kind of went south fast and the fishes became musk mushy and whatnot. And it's because blues, I don't really know that much about mackerel, but blues are vicious, you know, fighting strong fish.
+
+[38:53] Like when blues are running, uh when blues are running right uh close to the shore, you know, bathers have gotten like bites taken out of their legs. Because blues are vicious. That's why when you're fishing for blues, you use like a steel, uh, you know, a steel leader on it, and it and and people like fishing for blues because they have such good fight. So for their size. So I would bet that they go into a really, really hard rigor, and that that hard rigor is ripping apart the uh, you know, some of the structure of the muscle muscle and it's getting uh mushy.
+
+[39:25] Uh and I know we had a um a listener, and for some reason his name just went straight out of my head, but we had a listener who ran some preliminary tests on bluefish by doing uh ikijime, where the uh we do the spinal cord destruction and you bleed them out properly, and so that the fish were in a side by side. Now he only did one or two samples, but the side by side, the bluefish was significantly better, uh i.e. firmer, uh, when it was killed using uh the Japanese techniques that, you know, uh uh fall under the under the heading of Ikijime, fish killing techniques. Um and that's because, as we said many times, on fish that swim extremely strongly, they go into a hard rigor. If you take a needle and shove it through their spinal cord, uh it stops the messages from going from the spinal cord to the muscles, and therefore it preserves ATP, which is the energy the muscles used to contract, and therefore it delays rigor, and then delayed rigor is a softer rigor.
+
+[40:19] Anyway, so I would bet that that is what's going on. Uh I don't know much about the mackerel, uh, other than I like to eat mackerel. I don't really know much about them from a fishing and swimming perspective. So I I do know that they suffer some of the same problems of uh that all oily fishes uh suffer in terms of uh enzymatic activity. They can be mushy if they're cooked at low temperature because the enzymes in them uh not only the muscles themselves get broken, but the enzymes in the fish keep working uh quite actively uh while it's being cooked at lower temperatures and so they can turn mushy.
+
+[40:55] And I know certain species of mackerel have that problem uh very much. So, anyway, so I don't know whether that's also playing into uh part of it. It's never really listed in the uh those enzymes aren't really listed in uh the bluefish because it's only been recently that people have appreciated the delicious, delicious bluefish. I love bluefish. Uh I think more people are liking blue fish.
+
+[41:15] Jack, do you feel more people are liking bluefish now? Uh yeah, I hear more about it lately. Yeah. It's good stuff. I mean, you either like it or you don't.
+
+[41:23] I like it. Uh anyway, okay. So our buddy Christoph from Polyscience, the people that brought you the immersion circulator, calls in about butternut squash or rodent. Uh hello, Nastasha. I hope all is well.
+
+[41:33] I'm glad you've caught up uh uh with the last few radio shows on iTunes. I have a question I can't find a good answer for. Maybe Dave knows more about it. I've observed that when I cut butternut squash, my skin feels like it is dried out. It's quite aggressive, and I'm not sure if it is actual dehydration or something else.
+
+[41:48] I'm also not clear about the liquid pearls that collect on the butternut squash surface uh after a few minutes. It says see attached picture, but I don't have it. Sorry, Christoph, I don't have the picture. Uh, how does it happen that it collects in pearls like that? Is that liquid responsible for this dehydration?
+
+[42:02] I wonder if this liquid is used in any products like cosmetics. Have a great holiday season. Okay. So I went on my scientific uh web search engines that I steal and uh typed uh butternut squash and then a host of other things. And I couldn't find anything specific, except uh there are certain people that get what's called a uh uh protein contact dermatitis uh from many things, uh one of them being butternut squash.
+
+[42:29] So it is known that there are certain people that have uh skin sensitivity to uh butternut squash. I was doing more research, and butternut squash are part of a larger group, including cucumbers and all other squash and melons and stuff called uh cucribits. And um, they have uh can have lots of crazy things, uh flowing saps and whatnot flowing through the phloem, which is in the stems, but also I think uh to some extent they can have stuff flowing through uh the the fruits themselves, and I believe they would concentrate somewhat towards the skin side of it. Now, uh I was able to find some strange sugar compound components that are in pumpkins and and other uh strange kind of defense stuff, but nothing definitive. I would guess that if your hand is drying out like that, like the same way it does, for instance, if you're shelling a lot of shrimp, that you're getting some sort of uh either protein or a hydrocoloid that is uh basically not dissolving away on your hand and drying fairly quickly into a foam.
+
+[43:34] That's what I'm guessing. But I would love to hear if anyone knows anything more about it. Uh I wasn't able to do it reading the first you know, 10 to 15 papers where I typed in, you know, uh sap and or latex and or uh hydrochyloid or dermatitis and butternut squash and or cucurbit. But it's an interesting thing. Fine, it's a known fact.
+
+[43:56] I mean, I found uh an e-gullet uh, you know, link with someone, and if someone on the e-gold thing said, well, it's just starch, not starch, starch isn't gonna do that to you. But um anyway, it's interesting question. It's gotta be some wacky hydrochyloid or hydrochaloid protein mixture uh that's coming out of there. So anyway. We'll look into it more.
+
+[44:16] Uh you know, that's one of those things where uh I'm gonna have an answer for you in a year and a half because I'm gonna meet someday I will meet the butternut squash scientist and I will ask them what the hell the deal is and they'll tell me. Anyway. Uh Gabriel writes in, I hope this is the correct email address. It is. Um this question relates to an absurd the absurd price of sauce funnels.
+
+[44:36] Uh it's actually not a thing I want. Uh well, because he says he doesn't cook at that level. But Gabriel, once you own one of these, and by the way, a soft funnel that we're talking about, sauce funnel sauce gun, is basically a funnel, preferably metal, that has a little stick in the center of it that you lift up and stuff comes out of it. And it's one of those things that, yeah, you don't need it, but man, are those things a joy. They're just a they're a complete joy.
+
+[44:59] But they're absurdly priced. Absurdly priced. Uh so anyway, so this relates to the absurd price of sauce funnels. Um, so I wondered whether there wasn't a less expensive place to get a sauce funnel than JB Prince. Now listen, before we go any further, I know the uh the funnels at JB Prints are expensive, but JB Prince is selling a an expensive brand of those funnels because they only carry kind of the top quality stuff.
+
+[45:23] Here's the deal with JB Prince. And yes, it's true, I know them all, I like them, and they've given me some stuff before. But uh their stuff isn't cheap, but I I don't think that they they're charging they're charg they're not getting rich off of it. They're just carrying high quality brands. Right?
+
+[45:40] Stuff that you can't normally get in bulk from places, and so the price the prices are uh a little bit higher. But it's not like they're it's not like they're uh you know making money hand over fist with huge margins. They're just not. Okay, anyway. Um, well there is an easier uh sorry, there is a uh uh one that he saw on what uh on uh QVC that was much cheaper, right?
+
+[46:05] Uh and I looked on Amazon and there was a sauce funnel on Amazon that was about half the price of the one that you get at JB Prince. However, the one review I saw on it uh was basically that this sucker doesn't work and then go get the expensive one, which is from uh Matfer. Uh and so, you know, he's wondering how hard could it possibly be to build one of these things with a metal funnel, uh a screen, it actually doesn't need a screen, and some sort of device to control the aperture. Uh I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want to build it for 150 bucks. Could I build it?
+
+[46:36] Yes. I could go the problem metal funnels themselves are expensive, especially when they go down to the thing. So yes, I own a welder and a plasma cutter and a drill press and all that stuff. So I could go make one, but I definitely wouldn't want to for a hundred hundred and fifty bucks. But uh something um uh he writes in Gabriel writes it's interesting is if you search for results like sauce gun DIY plans, you come upon DIY weapons of the Libyan rebels.
+
+[47:02] And if you looked it up on the Atlantic uh monthly website, they have a link to all of these pictures of these like literally like dudes in workshops building weaponry to uh to take back the country from Gaddafi. It's pretty interesting, pretty interesting website. Anyway, go check it off. Okay. Uh Monica writes in on milkshakes.
+
+[47:24] Uh first of all, I love cooking issues. Keep up the good work, thank you. Uh anyway, I've never written to you before, but I thought you might find this recipe interesting in quotation marks. I literally laughed out loud when I realized uh that these people are actually making a buffalo chicken milkshake. Although it sounds totally gross, I'm thinking the idea of savory milkshakes might be worth checking out, like a frozen bloody merry or something.
+
+[47:42] Uh I saw this recipe on BuzzFeed, but I can't find the link to the article now. But here's a link to the video of them making it. Um thought you and other readers might enjoy it. Uh thanks and take care, Monica. Okay.
+
+[47:54] So what this is is uh, and I haven't seen this episode, even though I love Thurry Rock, is that Liz Lemon from 30 Rock is uh passing some sort of a fast food establishment. And the sign says, ba you know, it's back, the Buffalo Chicken Milkshake. And so this guy, which he calls himself a super fan, is on this video on Vimeo, I think, or no, YouTube, and uh he's uh sitting with one of the writers from 30 Rock and he's making her a buffalo chicken milkshake. Now, if you haven't seen the video, here's what he does. He takes milk and cream, right, and then uh see milk cream, uh blue cheese, blends it, adds uh tomato sauce and buffalo uh sauce, buffalo chicken wing sauce, and Worcestershire sauce, right?
+
+[48:40] And then puts it in the pan, and much like the granito we were talking about earlier, puts it in the freezer and stirs it occasionally uh until it turns into an icy creamy thing, and then uh blends it in a blender uh and then uh serves it as a milkshake and it garnishes it with a uh chicken strip and celery. Okay, now let's just leave aside whether or not this thing's gonna like whether or not this is a good idea. Let's leave that aside. Jack, what's your call? Good idea or bad idea about it, yeah.
+
+[49:07] Yeah, agreed. Yeah. So anyway, so let's leave this aside. This is a here are the errors that are made from a cooking perspective in this video. Uh first of all, you can tell that the texture of this thing is not going to be right.
+
+[49:21] It's not an ice cream texture. And the reason why, and it's not gonna be a milkshake texture either, it looks greeny and gloppy. And the reason why is because there's no sugar in it, right? Now, if you want to go savory, right, you still need something to take the place of sugar. Otherwise, the texture is never going to be milkshake.
+
+[49:39] It's gonna be greeny and gloppy, like it is in the video, you can see it. So, what this person needs to do is get a hold of some glucose syrup, right? Which ha it has a lot of the properties of sugar in terms of texture modifying for ice creams, but does not have the sweetness, right? So this is the first straight-up error that uh is being made in this, is that there's no sugar to modify uh the textures. Now, if I wanted to do it and I didn't have a home uh ice cream machine, which I don't, right, I would uh whip it with a whipping agent, uh then set it in the free uh freezer, then blend it uh with the military stuff you can get it.
+
+[50:15] But you'd have to have something like glucose syrup. There's a second huge error that uh he makes, and this is the one that really is gonna uh um shows he's not paying attention to the labels on his ingredients, and that is he says that his uh thing, because it it had remembered it has Worcestershire sauce in it. He says that his milkshake is still vegetarian until he puts the chicken strip in. Now, I don't want to go like any of you guys who are vegetarians out there, uh Worcestershire sauce is not vegetarian because the p one of the prime ingredients in Worcestershire sauce is anyone, anyone, and chovies, right? In fact, I just did a clarified uh uh clean you know, centrif centrifically clarified uh Worcestershire sauce like two weeks ago, and all of the anchovy settles out at the bottom and it basically tastes like straight fish paste, the stuff at the bottom that settles out in the clarified Worcestershire sauce.
+
+[51:08] So Worcestershire sauce is definitely not vegetarian. Now, you can buy crappy fake Worcestershire sauce, right, which I do not recommend at all. And fake Worcestershire can be vegetarian because it doesn't have anchovies in it. But if you use honest to God Worcestershire sauce, which they were using on the video, it is no longer vegetarian. So take that for whatever it is, right?
+
+[51:30] Right. Anyway. Okay. Matthew writes in on cheese. Hey Nastasha, uh, as I've written in before, I'm working with melted cheese sauce, uses sodium citrate and aorta carrageenin along with cheese, water, and beer.
+
+[51:41] Sodium citrate is what's called a melting salt, by the way, and it helps uh maintain a smooth curve when something's melted so it doesn't get grainy. Okay. Uh I got the recipe from Nathan Miraville via the internet. Uh his recipe is for use on mac and cheese. I'm using the cheese sauce as a topping for a sandwich.
+
+[51:57] I melt the cheese and hold it in a steam table. It works quite well, though it does tend to thicken over time. I fix this by adding liquid and then adjusting the seasoning. My question is in reference to the aortic carrageenan in this recipe. Uh in the Miraval recipe, he melts the cheese with uh the chemicals, sets it in a block, and then partially freezes it to make it easier to grade, and subsequently melt it into the cooked macaroni and cooking water.
+
+[52:17] I'm unsure if the role of caragin is simply to make the cheese more stable for freezing uh and keeping the shape of the block, or if it is to do with the mouthfeel or texture of the melted sauce. Uh as I'm not very familiar with either either uh ingredient in this recipe, I was hoping you could shed some light on on the properties on why they're there and perhaps the purpose of using carrageenin. Well, uh thanks, Matthew. So rather than uh having my own speculation, which I have, uh I wrote Chris Young an email last night. Uh Chris Young is uh, you know, one of the authors of the book and worked on this recipe.
+
+[52:46] Uh and so uh here's you know what might as well get the answer from the guy, right? Anyway, so he wrote back and he said the short answer is that melting salts uh act to stabilize molten cheese emotions by uh cheating calcium uh so is cheating or does he mean qating? Uh calcium solubilizing and dispersing the proteins, hydrating, it's probably an iPhone problem. Uh solubilizing and dispersing the proteins, hydrating and swelling the proteins and emulsifying the fat. Uh you can use only melting sauce, but older cheeses tend to have brittle texture.
+
+[53:16] This is because aging breaks proteins down to shorter chains to have less interaction with each other and thus less elastic elasticity in the slice. Adding iota carrageening gives back some of the elasticity and moisture holding ability uh when restructuring a fairy mature cheese. If you want to skip the iota, just blend in younger, milder cheeses. Uh stirred uh curd cheese with three to month, three to six months of age is a good choice. So uh it's basically there so that you can use more intensely flavored, more mature cheeses, and still have some elasticity.
+
+[53:46] So if you're using a young cheese, uh Chris Young, our friend, who's done a show, uh says you can leave it out. Okay. Uh Chris writes in uh lactic acid uh with a lact another lactic acid and a cheese question. Uh beer, dave, and hammer. Um okay, are there any tips that you might throw at us for using malic, ascorbic citric, and lactic acid in the kitchen?
+
+[54:09] And I I don't know where he's uh uh you know he is it I wonder whether Chris is a man or a woman. What do you think? Chris with a K, Jack, man or woman. Ooh, with a K. That's a wild card.
+
+[54:18] I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one. I'll say I'll say guy, though. Yeah?
+
+[54:24] You're going with Chris Christopherson? Yeah. Carlos is going with woman, though. Yeah? So we've got a 50-50 split.
+
+[54:31] Anyway. Okay. Um, we generally cook vegan uh kinds of food. So a nostalgia on an airplane somewhere is making her vegan face. Uh but not that raw uh I shouldn't say it on air, sugar honey iced tea.
+
+[54:44] Not that raw sugar honey iced tea. And I promise we stay away from sprouts. Good, because sprouts, as we all know, it tastes like poison. Uh but um Chris is interested in making cheese uh with with nut milks and convinced that lactic acid is the key flavor component that's missing. Yeah, sure she uh he or she knows it's just one go easy on me.
+
+[55:02] Uh mostly interested in doing this from the perspective of trying to figure out what makes some of the distinctive flavors other than spec uh specific bacteria, etc. Okay. So uh it's true that uh lactic acid is one of the characteristic uh flavors in many, many cheeses, um, and you and and cured meats for that matter, um, and pickles, uh, and sauerkraut uh and kimchi. And you can buy lactic acid and you can spike things with it to make it taste more like that. Uh and I've done this many times.
+
+[55:31] But as you note, it's only one of the many flavor components that's uh present. So a lot of it is protein breakdown, and uh and and a lot of the for instance, if you ever had a cheese that's so sharp that it like it pops the the taste buds, like I like I have this like harbor reaction to uh certain cheeses that I happen to love, so I eat it anyway, where my taste buds literally pop out, and you can see them, they look like little mushrooms that are exploding on my tongue. And um, and those are because of fat breakdown products. So you have uh, you know, lipid breakdown products, you have protein breakdown products, uh, and you have other like bacterially uh produced things like lactic acid. So it's just a total smorgasbord conglomeration of different uh flavors.
+
+[56:16] And you can buy, uh, for instance, if you put fats in, you can buy enzymes that will enhance uh the lipid breakdown in nuts uh and cause those certain things to those flavors to happen. I don't know whether they're gonna taste good or not, but that's definitely something you you can you can do. But if you experiment with this, uh, you know, please tell us. A scorbic, for the other one, that's lactic. For a scorbic, I mean I use that whenever I'm juicing.
+
+[56:42] Like whenever I'm juicing something, uh I got a score big sitting around because that's the one that stops things from turning, uh, you know, stops things from oxidizing, because that's like you know, uh vitamin C, it's an antioxidant. Uh malic, I use uh a mixture of malloc and citric, two parts citric to one part malloc, as my go-to uh acidity corrector because that mixture, two parts uh citric and one part malloc, is basically the main acids in lime juice, and since lime juice is what God put on the earth to correct acidity with, uh, if you don't want to use lime juice because it's not going to keep or it's going to be heated a lot, something like that, a slight pinch of those two acids in that ratio will uh will bring about uh the desired the desired acidity. So I always have those things on hand and and I I use them all the time. Okay. Alright, Dave, we've got to wrap it up.
+
+[57:29] Alright, I'm almost done with this in my last question. Okay. We good? Do you have five minutes or two minutes? Yep.
+
+[57:34] Okay. Uh also an unrelated question. Would you be willing, or have you ever posted pictures of your home kitchen somewhere? I know you must have a somewhat small kitchen, and I'm interested in your use of space. We are in uh Los Angeles in a smallish condo, and space is always an issue.
+
+[57:48] Uh the kitchen's taking over uh the living room. And I wonder if you how you saw some of these issues that we run into, and I'm sure you are more creative about this than we are. I don't know about that. Our solutions often just involve a lot of swearing, but perhaps yours do as well. Well, well, Chris, swearing always works.
+
+[58:02] I find that if you curse at something enough and sometimes punch and hit it, as long as it's an object, not a person, that you can usually get it to do what you want. But I, in fact, if you go on uh on the Google and you search uh New York magazine, uh Dave Arnold Kitchen, there is a picture of my kitchen. Um it's bigger than it's bigger than it should be. My apartment is 800 square feet, my kitchen is 200 of that, but it is pretty compact. I have a six-foot sink with like sliding boards and all that.
+
+[58:31] But there's a there's a rundown of it there. I'd be happy to talk about it in excruciating detail uh maybe the next time around when we have more time. But on the way out, I do want to say this. Uh happy holiday to uh everyone out there. We're gonna see you.
+
+[58:46] We'll be back uh next Tuesday, I think, as scheduled, right? Unless Harris Radio is not going to be working next week. Are they Jack? Are we on for next week? We're not, we're off next week.
+
+[58:54] So we'll see you guys. And the week after that is what? 2012, yeah. No, it'll be uh January 2nd or 3rd, I think. All right.
+
+[59:04] Well, listen, I'm gonna see all you guys in the new year, and before I go, I want to say that I can officially announce now that uh we're gonna be starting a bar concept in the back of Sombar, uh, and it's probably the official date is gonna be sometime in mid-January. It's gonna be called Booker and Dax at Sombar, and it's going to be using all of the techniques that we've been jabbering about for years. We're gonna use the red hot poker, I'm gonna use uh some new carbonation equipment I'm building. We're gonna center fuzz there. I'm gonna be doing legal rotary evaporation using liquid nitrogen so that we can do water-based distillations, it tastes good.
+
+[59:43] We're gonna pull out all of those stops and we're gonna get it going in the back. Uh in uh it's gonna be in night times in the back of Sarmbar. That's awesome. And look for it, Booker and Ducks at Sandbar. Happy holidays, cooking issues.
+
+[1:00:11] Merry Christmas baby. Now I'm living in paradise. Well, I'm feeling my fat. Got good music on my radio.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. The following program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery. Kane Vineyard and Winery supports Heritage Radio and the growing movement to change how Americans eat and how we think about our planet. For more information, visit www.cane5.com.
+
+[0:43] Hello, happy new year and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[0:56] How are you? Doing all right. Uh how was your uh Christmas there? I can hear you crinkling up your bag, by the way. Fine.
+
+[1:01] Yeah, yes. How was yours? Uh good. Good. I was in uh up at my uh at uh my mom's house there in uh in Westchester, just north of the city.
+
+[1:11] Gave my uh my kids the crazy train set that uh you know was my dad's and given to me. Then I gave it to my kids. They seem to enjoy it, you know. Oh gauge the whole deal, Christmas tree, blah, blah, blah. Uh nice.
+
+[1:23] Yeah, nice, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You anything special? Anything?
+
+[1:26] Nothing special. Nothing? Wow. Wow, that's a depressing. No, it was fine.
+
+[1:31] Nothing special. Nothing I want to get into. Wow. All right. Well, anyway, calling your questions to 718 497-2128.
+
+[1:37] That's 718497-2128. All right, let's get oh, by the way. I'm not sure if we're gonna have a show next week because I will be in Sweden in uh and on Tuesday. I don't know exactly where I'm gonna be, so we'll have to figure that out. But uh, I would love to do a live call in from Sweden where it's dark all the time.
+
+[1:56] And uh, you know, uh I'm the only idiot. Actually, I'm not the only idiot, like a huge uh host, absolute vodka is sending me over, and uh basically uh a huge host of like some of the best known and uh nicest people actually in the bar business are going over there, Dale de Graff, Audrey Saunders, Jimmy and blah blah, etc. etcetera, etc. And for some reason I got put on that list, like they accidentally emailed it to me, and then when I replied yes, they they were like, Oh crap. And then they had you know they they couldn't rescind their offer.
+
+[2:20] Anyway, my wife bought me the uh the butt-kicking uh Canada goose uh like giant South Pole style parka to go with it, which is awesome because uh I get to stay warm and apparently a goose dies, which is good. Everyone knows Canadian geese. Well, they don't actually make that a Canadian geese, but is there any bird on Earth less pleasant than the than the Canadian goose? I really like them. What what?
+
+[2:41] Wait, you don't like biscuits, but you like Canadian geese? What is it? They're really pretty, I think. Pretty they poop if you've never lived on the east coast. No, no, I've stepped in their poop, but I think they're really pretty.
+
+[2:50] Have you ever been close to one? There's a phone call. There okay, I'm gonna take the phone call, but they're the Canadian geese are the meanest, meanest creatures in the world. They're so mean. So mean.
+
+[3:01] Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Hello. Oh, I guess we lost him. Oh man, so quick. So quick.
+
+[3:10] What happened? I don't know. I think it might be Matthew with stage fright. Anyway, hopefully they'll they'll call back. Anyway, we do have a question in uh from Matthew saying, I hope your uh 2012 is going well and uh no Mayan apocalypses have occurred yet, but there's still hope for the Mayan apocalypse.
+
+[3:24] I'll tell you something. Let's say the Mayan apocalypse does happen, right? That's kind of good news. It means that there is sort of something else out there, right? I mean, if if you were an agnostic or an atheist and the Mayan apocalypse comes true, well, that's proof that there's something out there.
+
+[3:37] That's good news, right? Gotta put a positive spin on things, Nastashi, even an apocalypse. No? But then you're not gonna know if it existed when as soon as you go. No, but that's the point.
+
+[3:47] If there if there is, it means there's a something higher. There's something out there. There's something. No one will relish in that fact, I mean. No, except me.
+
+[3:54] Anyway. Matthew has two questions in. The first one, Matthew's going to Colombia. I'm going to spend a week in Cartagena this January. I wanted to ask you about food recommendations.
+
+[4:04] I'm a huge f a huge fruit fan, like you are. Well, it says like you two are, but really I forced Nastasha to do it. She hates fruit. I'm kidding. She actually does like fruit, right?
+
+[4:12] Something she likes. She gotta like something. Anyway. If you have any specifics on fruit to try, that would be cool. Otherwise, if you have any specific dishes, seafood or ingredients maybe worth bringing home to look out for in Colombia, please let me know.
+
+[4:23] I'm not sure if you've been to Cartagena specifically, but if you have, do you know of any restaurants, fish kiosks or dive bars worth trying? Well, uh, I was only in Cartagena uh for one day, uh, and the only real restaurant I ate in was uh a friend of mine, Danielle Castaño, uh, who also does a razor shiny knife here in Brooklyn. Uh he has I don't know if he was even doing that anymore because he's got like eight billion restaurants in Colombia, but his restaurant in Columbia in uh Cartagena is called uh Vera or Vera. Uh it's in the uh Hotel Chirasi, and it's like really cool. It's all white, it's got a waterfall on the inside.
+
+[4:53] It's kind of indoor outdoor, which is kind of the coolest thing about uh Cartagena, but that's really the only place I ate and I can I can recommend it. I recommend going there. Uh I didn't go to we went to like one or two bot dive bars, but we almost got the crap eaten out of us by the locals, and so we ended up leaving. I don't remember the names of them. It was very late anyway.
+
+[5:07] Okay. Uh on fruit. Now I know I've mentioned these before uh on the on the air, but you you have to have when you're down there, Lulo. Lulo is and they make a drink out of Lulo. Lulo has an amazing, you blend it into a juice, and when you shake it into a drink, it makes a nice kind of creamy head.
+
+[5:22] So you gotta have a Lulo, which is very uh aesthetic. Uh Uchuva, which are basically like uh gooseberries, but they're really good and it's and they're they're almost free. It's like they come on the table uh when you you know when you come mango stines, you get great mango stems there, and they're not from there, but they're delicious. Uh guanabana is maybe my favorite fruit in like the world. You can get really great ones there.
+
+[5:42] Granite, they have many different kind of passion fruit variants. Uh Grenadilla is probably the most favorite one down there. Um, delicious, and cuba, which is another kind of a banana-shaped passion fruit, but smaller, also delicious. You want to try tomate de arbol, which is kind of bitter at the skin, but very interesting, uh, etc. etc.
+
+[5:59] etc. Another one, pataya, which is their dragon fruit, which is actually delicious as opposed to the dragon fruits we get here, which are, in my opinion, without use. Yeah? Okay. Yeah.
+
+[6:08] Yeah. Nastash's like, I don't care. I don't care. Okay. Two.
+
+[6:11] Low temperature, you know, it's it's nice to come back after you know a break. It's a new year, new everything, and it's good to know that some things don't change, like Nastasha not giving a crap about what I'm talking about. I am. No, I was thinking about how your kids yesterday asked me, are dragons related to dragon fruit? And I was like, Yeah, they're obsessed with this kind of relation, like word relation.
+
+[6:30] You're like, well, the words are really good. Yeah. Yeah. But the fruits themselves are not. Seeing how dragon fruit is real.
+
+[6:37] Dragon fruit's real. Dragons not so much. Okay. Uh Matthew's second question on low temperature duck breasts. I recently became the proud father of a poly science sous vide professional circulator.
+
+[6:46] Congratulations. Uh Christmas present, maybe? Maybe. Maybe. Uh I tried out a Muscovy duck breast at eight uh 58 degrees uh Celsius, which is like 136 or 137 uh Fahrenheit, for about an hour, sorry, 156, 157, 157, somewhere in there.
+
+[7:04] Uh for about an hour uh and a half. It came out tasty but a bit chewy. With such a lean cut uh without a huge amount of connective tissue, would cooking for a longer time yield a more tender result. I was also wondering when you do do duck breasts in a circulator, do you render the fat before or after the bath? Thanks, Matthew.
+
+[7:19] Okay, I always render my duck breasts after I cook them. Some people do a sear before and after. With duck breasts, I'm really just trying to cook the breast through, and then afterwards I sear it traditionally, basically in a pan to get that nice crisp duck breast. The modernist cuisine uh folks, they do a sear both before and after, and they use you know what they call cryo searing, which is like kind of a dry ice bag that they put the duck breast on to freeze that portion solid so you don't overcook the meat. Um I basically just put the duck breast in a bag, squish it very flat against the table, the skin side, so that it renders nicely after it's cooked, because if you just put it in the bag all willy-nilly, the skin will be bent and it won't render properly against the pan, okay, because the st because cooked meat is stiffer.
+
+[8:00] Uh then I try to cook it for the shortest possible amount of time, like 45 minutes. The problem, um cooking it longer will break down some more stuff, but it actually, to my to my taste, tends to make it more mushy, not necessarily more tender, just more mushy. And certain duck breasts, and I can't remember whether Muscovy does it, get a little bit um livery also if they're if they cook for a very long period of time. You could try. Some people I know do cook duck breasts for a long time and they seem to like it.
+
+[8:27] I don't. I like the duck breast cooked at like um 50 uh at like 57 actually Celsius is where I cook it, but it'll probably be a little tough in that range, or 58 if it's a tough breast for about 45 minutes to an hour. Try cooking one longer. I don't have too much experience with the muscovy breasts. I do most of my tests on the pecking duck uh breast.
+
+[8:48] Um, but I don't know. Again, I I hate to say don't do it uh because some people really like duck breasts when it's cooked longer and it will break it down further. Don't go any higher on on temperature. Usually if a duck breast is tough at fifty seven, I say go to 58 Celsius uh because that's going to take away a little of the squashiness the same way that if you have a skirt steak, you take it up one degree, it'll get rid of a little of the squash. So you could try to go to 59, but that seems way too high to me.
+
+[9:11] Maybe dial back to 57. I I wish I could give a better recommendation here because just what you're writing in to me is not my normal uh experience for what happens with duck breasts. Anyway, sorry about that. Uh two, Kurt writes in from Washington, DC. Uh, why is whole wheat pasta so terrible?
+
+[9:28] Do you agree, Nastasha? Yeah. You hate it, right? Yeah. Well, first of all, Nastasha, uh a hater of many things.
+
+[9:34] One of the things I think she hates most is kind of poorly done pasta. But she is a pasta lunatic, so much so that even I, who love pasta and used to make pasta uh basically three or four times a week, cook pasta quite often. She assumes that I dislike pasta because I don't appear to like it as much as she does, right? Yes. And you often tell me we're not the same person.
+
+[9:54] Yeah, we're not the same person, that's true. Uh and so you uh but you also hate the whole wheat pasta. So do I. Yeah, Jack, you hate as well? Yeah.
+
+[10:02] And what are your reasons for the hatred? I don't know. It's the texture and exactly the texture. I actually don't mind the the actual flavor of it so much uh if it's done properly, as long as it hasn't gone rancid. Uh but uh yeah, the texture is no good.
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+[10:17] You Nastasha? Yeah. Uh there's a uh rice pasta out there, which is dreadful. If you try that one, oh dreadful, just awful. I mean, look, rice noodles are great when it's supposed to be a rice noodle in an Asian dish, but if you're trying to pretend that it's Italian pasta, it's just horrible, right?
+
+[10:31] Yeah. Uh and there's a corn pasta, also, uh, Jack, you wouldn't approve from a texture standpoint, but I actually kind of enjoy it. If you don't think about it as pasta. If you think about it as like the cor a corn noodle, it's uh actually kind of good. Anyway, uh what Kurt writes in is uh why is whole wheat pasta so terrible?
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+[10:47] This is a serious question. I love pasta, as does apparently uh Nastasha and Jack. But my wife and mother regularly try to convince me that I should be eating Ronzoni Healthy Harvest, Berea Plus, is it pronounced Borilla or Borilla? Borilla. Barilla?
+
+[11:01] Like gorilla? Borilla Plus or some other healthier product, healthier in quotes. And by the way, I agree, like health. I hate you know what people think that like you need to be like if you eat whole wheat, you're suddenly healthier. Like we're not the most over uh we're we have so much uh an over soup superabundance of nutrition uh in our diets.
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+[11:19] Anyway, okay. Uh I like the fact that healthier is in quotes, even though my wife uh always smacks me in the face when I put quotes around something and you know, if I put quotes anyway, whatever. Uh these products are terrible. Partially it's that the product itself tastes awful, and part of it is that it mocks me by reminding me of actual delicious pasta. The process of eating it is like chomping on raw field corn while staring at a stack of fresh corn tortillas.
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+[11:43] It is entirely unsatisfying. When I've had to cook with the stuff, I simply tried to hide it, preparing dishes with strong flavors like Asian peanut sauces. But can the product itself be made better? And Nastasha hates peanut sauces, by the way, hates them anyway. Uh is there a good way to make improved pasta?
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+[11:58] That is, are there pastas with lower glycemic indexes or more protein that are culinarily worthwhile? Well, no. Uh I mean the issue is is that uh wheat, the reason why wheat is so awesome is because wheat is awesome. And it it's the gluten in wheat that gives it that kind of that awesome texture that we associate with uh with pasta. And when you add the bran uh from you know, and all the other stuff that goes into a whole wheat uh pasta, then uh those things tend to um what's the word I'm looking for?
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+[12:29] Not interrupt, but uh interfere with the gluten matrix and make the texture not as good. In addition, they have fat in them, uh which tends to go rancid, so if it's stored for a long period of time, you're gonna get rancidity uh in them. So there's all uh a bunch of associated problems with going whole wheat on pasta. Now, if you were gonna make your own whole wheat pasta, you could get a whole wheat fairly soft flour that is very, very finely ground, that doesn't taste like sawdust, for instance, uh chipati flour or something like this, that is quite good in something like a biscuit, make sure it's extraordinarily fresh. Then I would dope it with uh vital wheat gluten to try and add more gluten to it, try and get some more snap.
+
+[13:10] And then I would uh add uh consway, which is a little bit of an alkaline uh uh powder, or you could even uh add some baking soda to increase the alkalinity. Uh baking soda is not really strong enough. You want to add something like sodium carbonate, not sodium bicarbonate, or just get consuate at your Asian grocery. This will strengthen the uh the gluten network even fur fur uh further and give it a snap. It will give it a little bit of an alkaline taste, but that's kind of nice in certain applications.
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+[13:35] Maybe it could be nice in the Italian thing. And maybe that would be enough to get some of the snap back. What do you think, Nastasha? Sure. Anyway, give it a shot, give us a ring.
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+[13:42] Uh caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how are you doing? Howdy. This is Matthew, actually, you just answered a couple of my questions before. Nice.
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+[13:51] Were you the caller on the line that we it got dropped by mistake? Yeah, I got disconnected. Oh, alright, good. So at least we didn't lose you permanently. What's all right.
+
+[13:58] Happy New Year, by the way. What's up? Happy New Year to you. Actually, I got a uh a small pork shouldered rose that I want to throw in my circulator right now. I just uh browned it I was about to throw it in.
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+[14:12] Um I've done beef short ribs before at like forty eight hours for um at about fifty eight feet and I I loved them. They came out great. I haven't found much information on uh pork shoulder. All right. There's good news and b good news and bad news on the pork shoulder.
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+[14:31] Anytime you're cook doing a low temperature cook on something that contains multiple muscles in it and pork shoulder is a prime example certain muscles are going to be perfect at the end of the cook time and other muscles aren't. So the muscles in the pork shoulder that have more connective tissue in them are going to be really good when they're cooked in a very similar way to a short rib. So uh like a um you know like 48 hours at like uh or you could do like probably 36 hours at like 60 degrees something in there in that range which is 140 somewhere in that range for a pork shoulder is going to be good. And and all of the muscles that contain connective tissue are going to be good right there. Do you know what I mean?
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+[15:13] Yeah this uh I I took a look at the rose it's pretty small and it all looks like well marbled like pretty much you know it's it's small it's about uh five inches across I think maybe a little smaller and uh they all look good they all look like the right right muscles so uh yeah too much short rib. Yeah but a little higher people don't like to see their people don't like to see their pork too pinked out on them and unless unless you cure it with an instacure beforehand so in which case they don't notice because they can't tell. Uh but you um yeah I would go uh like up in the sixty degree range, like between sixty and sixty's still gonna be quite pink, so you're gonna put a nice sear on it. If you're not, you can go all the way up to sixty two. I wouldn't go above sixty two right?
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+[15:56] It depends on your customer i or your family or whatever. If you if if it's just for me, actually, but uh it tastes good at 60, but it's it's still kind of it's gonna be kind of soft and it's gonna be pink. So if that's a problem for you visually, then go higher all the way up to 62. Or you could like I say, you could put a hard sear on it. You'll notice if there are some muscles that didn't have a lot of connective tissue in it, they will appear at uh at this point to be a little bit fibery.
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+[16:21] They'll be tender and they won't be dry, but they they'll be a little fibried. So when you when you do it, just you know, t look keep a lookout for that just in case you notice it. All right. Uh another question on the same subject. If I was breaking down a you know, whole pork shoulder and I I I I wanted to cook it, you know, in in the circulator.
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+[16:39] How would I, you know, I just look for the muscles that appear to have more um connective tissue or marbling kind of, or is that yeah. So like I'll give you one that I can visualize in my head, so therefore I can tell you is uh on a uh on pork belly. If you get the whole pork belly, almost all of it is good, but there's that one muscle that runs in the opposite direction from the most in the pork belly that looks like a little oval on the top of the pork. That muscle, if you look at that, it doesn't have any sort of connective tissue on the inside, and then that muscle itself on its own is fairly tender. That one doesn't respond to low temperature cooking for a long time very well, to give you an example.
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+[17:17] All right. Thank you very much, babe. Thank you. All right, right in, tell us how it works. All right, bye.
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+[17:24] Have a good day. All right. All right, we're gonna go to our first commercial break. Come back, call your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128 cooking issues ready or not you might come you can hide gonna find you and keep you happy of not give a co you can hide gonna love you and make you love me oh baby hey baby because I gotta like where you go my heart's gonna blow baby hey baby you can't hide forever ready or not and welcome back to Cooking Issues Jack what song was that the Delphonics nice nice ready or not nice and we have a caller caller you are on the air Hey how's it going?
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+[18:36] It's Brian Hey what's up How you doing? Um listen I'm going to New York I'm I'm coming later in the week and I wanted to uh see what you and Nastasha thought about um restaurants to visit some some uh stores I should be going to to uh pick up some um some fun fun stuff all right so uh what kind of okay well tell you where I shop and Nastasha'll tell you tell you where she shops if you like Italian food do you like Italian food? Of course okay you go to Di Polo's but budget DiPalos is like the Italian market it's on uh Grand Street and Mott uh but budget some time because it's gonna take forever. If you're lucky you'll get one of the family members like Louie or Sal or Marie or or Renee, who's actually not a family member but is awesome, and it's kind of one of the gems of New York City. Uh I've been going, I don't know, mm well over a decade.
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+[19:26] Well, well well over a decade. Uh but that's uh that's a great place. Uh if you want kitchen equipment, you're gonna go check out JB Prince, which is like it's in like 31st to 32nd Street, uh, just on the east side. It's on the 11th floor. It's like a jewelry box of like crazy awesome equipment.
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+[19:41] You're gonna want to check out. Um you're gonna want to check out for cookbooks, Kitchen Arts and Letters, which is way uptown uh in the 90s. It's the best cookbook store I've ever been in. And um the people who run it know uh so much about cookbooks that you will be embarrassed if you don't actually buy from them if you sneak off and buy it on Amazon instead because they're worth supporting. Um what do you think for what do you think, Nastasha, for restaurants?
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+[20:07] Um main ones that you always mention. Well, you mentioned some. You know, you always talk about Dell Post on WD 50 and uh and and milk bar, but uh you know, everybody knows those. But how about some that that that are a little off the radar? Hmm.
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+[20:26] I'm gonna have to have Nastasha think about she's gonna think about that for a minute and have an actual response instead of just saying, Why don't you talk about it? Which I could say myself. I don't need to ask you to ask me to talk about it anyway. Um while while she's thinking about that, uh what when are you coming? What dates?
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+[20:41] Um I'm uh I'm coming tomorrow and I'm there for a week and a half. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just gonna miss when theoretically, I'm not allowed to announce anything, but theoretically, when our bar is gonna open. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna miss it.
+
+[20:54] Yeah, just just barely. But the uh bars, obviously, you're gonna want to go to the PDT, Death and Co., uh, Pegu Club, Little Branch. Milk and Honey is kind of hard to get into sometimes. You got any restaurants there, Nastasha? You're the one that always recommends restaurants for people.
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+[21:10] I know. No, I know. We go to some really terrible restaurants. Well, good. So tell me the good ones.
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+[21:15] What about lunch at Teresa's? Ooh, Therese's really good. And you know about Roberta's obviously, otherwise you wouldn't be calling in. Roberta's you gotta stop there. Gotta go out to push what.
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+[21:22] Yeah. Oh, and if you want to taste some if you want to taste, and this is off the radar. Uh you I look okay, right, pumping heritage meats, but if you want to taste some delicious American country hams, the Essex Street Market shop for Heritage Meats has uh a probably the best supply other than a Sambar of American country hams to try of of people that are using Heritage Meats, but are also great producers like Benton's and uh and uh Nancy uh Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's and uh and um S. Wallace Edwards who's a sponsor of the network, blah blah blah blah blah. Um what else, Sazie?
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+[21:57] All right, she's gonna think about this crap. All right. And then hydrocolloids. Where we're uh, you know, any any good place to fix something like that up? Nah, I buy online.
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+[22:05] I just buy online. Like go go to any one of the online suppliers, like Modernist Pantry or uh, you know, Terra Spice or any of that. Amazon now is linked up with some of these guys. You can get it really quickly. I've never walked into a store and bought bought stuff here um in terms of uh hydrocolloids.
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+[22:20] You know, and we don't even have in New York City really great homebrew shops. There's a small homebrew shop at the Whole Foods, but nothing you know, nothing really to write home about. Any other specialty markets? I mean Oh, there's a weird why don't why don't you send me an email and then I'll send you an email back. Or or we'll try and think about it and we'll and we'll spout it off on the next on the next program or something like that.
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+[22:38] Well, you should be too late for you. Anyway, we've given you some good recommendations. All right, all right, thanks. Happy to hear you. Oh, we have another caller?
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+[22:47] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Joshua Stokes. How are you doing? I'm doing alright. What's up?
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+[22:52] Um, I have to in the next few days and make a foie gras terrine, and I wanted to do it low temperature if I could. Could you give me some pointers on either making a terrine or a torsion? What's going to go in? Is it terrine basically 100% foie gras with flavoring, or are you adding other stuff to it? Just the foie gras.
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+[23:11] Yeah. Now, uh I okay, I have to be honest, I don't cook because it's really expensive and it's not normally my it's not one of the things I normally cook. If you go on, so I I'd be basically be telling you from a long time ago memory what to do. But there's a there's various different ways of doing the uh terrene in terms of the time and temperature. Typically what you would do is you would pack it either in a terrine mold inside of a bag, or you could pack it just alone inside of a bag.
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+[23:40] Um there's a it depends on how you want it, whether you want it basically me quiet, like partially cooked, or whether you want it kind of all the way cooked through. Most people I think now tend to go on the low side of cooked. And um, it's one of the few things that is still cooked at what they say is a delta temperature where the water bath temperature is slightly. You're uh you're doing this sous- vide, right? Um my memory just zapped out.
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+[24:03] You're doing this sous vide. I mean, I would say low temperature. I don't have an actual vacuum machine. All right, so you can do it in a vacuum uh in a ziploc bag, no problem. They um most people put a slight delta delta T on it just because you don't want it to cook for a very, very long time because the longer it cooks, even at the lower temperatures, the more kind of uh fat leakage you're gonna get out of it.
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+[24:22] Do you know what I'm saying? So they they tend to go uh they try to try to do it a little a little bit more more quickly. Um go on cookingissues.com, go to the Sous vide, Sous vide Low Temperature Primer, and in that, in the pretty Pictures charts, there is a section um on I believe there's a temperature there for foie gras terrine. If not, uh they're they're cooked low, like in the low to mid 50s Celsius, usually cooked at something like 60 degrees Celsius to something like 54, 55 in that range. For a higher temp cook, you could go up to like 57, but I wouldn't go higher than that.
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+[24:59] I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but those numbers are in the primer in the pretty pictures charts. Uh especially redact redacted from Bruno Gusseau, Georges Pralu, and Juan Roca's recipes on foie gras terrine. Okay, great. Thank you very much. All right, no problem.
+
+[25:16] Good luck. And sorry I didn't have it right off the top of my head. Oh, no problem. Thanks. All right.
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+[25:20] I should cook more foie gras, right? Yeah. I really just I just don't cook it very often. Weird. Um okay.
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+[25:28] Oops. Getting a picture. We're getting a picture in. Nastash will have to explain to me what it is in a minute. Hold on a second.
+
+[25:34] So uh got a question in from uh Andrew from Andrew uh said about teeth brushing. This morning I was brushing my teeth as I habitually do every morning, we hope. Uh when I brush my teeth, I also brush my tongue as to remove the horrible morning breath germs and whatnot. I took pause this morning and thought, uh, does this abrasive action hurt my tongue and therefore my taste buds and palate? This may be pure paranoia, but as a budding professional cook, I'm doing my best to taste everything, develop a palate and not swallow some lie, uh making a joke on me swallowing live, burning half of my tongue.
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+[26:05] By the way, uh uh that's Andrew from MPLS. What's MPLS? I don't know. Anyway, um, I did burn off uh a huge chunk of my taste buds with uh lye, but they grew back, thank goodness. So uh it's a curious question.
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+[26:19] So not just brushing your teeth, but they sell tongue scrapers to scrape kind of your tongue off. And yeah, and uh first of all, I looked up is this is tongue scraping and teeth brushing actually effective? You know, tongue brushing effective. And uh I looked in a um an article called the impact of different tongue cleaning methods on bacterial load of the tongue from 2008. And yes, uh not once, but habitual uh cleaning of the tongue via scraping, and I would assume also by brushing, does reduce bacterial load on the tongue.
+
+[26:47] Okay, and therefore, you know, helps with halitosis and whatnot. Um but I read in another book, The Toxicology of the Eye, Ear, and Other Special Senses by Andrew Wallace Hayes, that yes, in fact, taste buds do get abraded, right, and taste cells do get damaged by abrasion. However, uh it only takes about 10 days. The average the average lifespan of a taste receptor cell is about ten days. They're getting turned over all the time.
+
+[27:12] So if you abrade some, right, and you ruin some, they're just gonna grow back. So it's not like you're gonna get any sort of permanent long-term loss from scraping or or from brushing, and you have to think uh about this is that if you have some sort of stank taste in your mouth, right, that's gonna affect your palate as much as as you know, wiping away a few taste buds. Wouldn't you think so, Nastasha? Now it is true that you should not brush your teeth any time close to when you're going to be tasting or cooking. In fact, um there is a whole body of research out there on how to neutralize the effect uh the effect of brushing teeth in tasting panels, because it's a huge problem in the industry where they're doing tasting panels uh and taking notes for for food manufacturers, for coffee, etc.
+
+[27:58] etc. People who brush their teeth and then try to taste sync because toothbrush teeth brushing and toothpaste wipes out your palate for a good length of time. So there's a whole I didn't get a chance to go reread all that, but there's a huge research body on that. So you should not brush your teeth uh with toothpaste anytime near when you're going to be eating uh eating professionally. And if if you do, you should be uh chewing on a bunch of carrots and drinking a bunch of stuff to wash away the uh toothbrush taste.
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+[28:24] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh Ryan Santos writes in Hey Dave and Nastasha, happy new year.
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+[28:30] I recently acquired some locally raised pheasants. Having no experience with them, I was hoping to get some suggestions on how to prepare them, whole roasted, sous vide, whichever. They're all two to three pounds. That's small. Uh and cooking recommendations seem to vary widely from 15 to 20 minutes to 1.5 hours.
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+[28:46] Help. Okay, here's the problem with pheasants. Pheasants are delicious, but they're very easy to overcook. The legs are tough, and the breast, if it overcooks, is is useless. That said, pheasant delicious, right?
+
+[28:55] Uh now, there's two basic ways you can do this. I would never cook for uh one and a half hours. That's just too dang long. If you want to do a roast pheasant, just a super high temperature to crisp up the outside to get some nice flavor without overcooking it. I've done that.
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+[29:08] I've I've grilled uh pheasant over like raging wood fires. Basically, the outside was burnt, the inside was raw, and it was still delicious, you know, back in the day. If you want to do it low temp, which is I think gonna be the best way to get kind of a high end result out of it. What I would do is I would cut off the breasts, right? Then cut off the legs, cook the legs separately.
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+[29:26] You could do a braise of the legs or whatever, because they're gonna be tough anyway. Uh take the uh bones, make a stock with it, take the breasts, cook them at around 57 degrees Celsius for and they're very thin, so I would cook them only for like 20 minutes. Uh yeah, let them cool down, right? And then quick sear, like not like rendering duck fat, but like quick sear very high to crisp up the skin on the outside, serve them and you're done. That's what I think you should do.
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+[29:53] What do you think? Okay. Maybe 58. What do you think? Yes.
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+[29:56] Nastasha doesn't really care. Okay. So uh should we go to our second break or no? Uh no. No?
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+[30:01] Okay, good. Sebastian writes in, hey David Nastasha. By the way, in case you have a question, call in to 724972128. That's a one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Uh hey David Nastasha.
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+[30:12] I love that you guys have put together such an amazing radio show amazing radio show. Thank you very much. Uh I'm a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America and love that I have a resource for learning about advanced and cutting edge cooking techniques. Here are my questions. I've been making root beer from scratch using the recipe from America's Test Kitchen.
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+[30:27] You can find the recipe at WW Americans Test Test Fitchin Key blah blah blah blah blah blah. You look for online, America's Test Kitchen uh root beer recipe. Uh the root beer is quite delicious and amazing. It's carbonated with yeast and has a great depth of flavor. The only thing I'd like to improve is the head.
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+[30:43] It has a small head when it's first poured and then dies off very quickly. Is there something I can do to make it have more of a Guinness type long lasting head that would be nice and foamy? Perhaps adding some liquid lessithin would do the job. Or would I add uh or what would uh or when would I, or what would I add to it? And do I have ec any recommendations for percentages to try, or is there anything else to get this effect?
+
+[31:02] Thanks, Sebastian from Napa Valley. Alright, Sebastian, I wouldn't go with uh lessithin for this. Uh less thin knives wouldn't go for it for this. What I would use, what the pros use for beer stabilization is uh I mean you can use gumerabic, by the way, as a bodying aid uh aid, and that's fairly you know, friendly. Uh also fairly expensive.
+
+[31:22] Uh and that can be used to stabilize the the head a little bit, although I I I don't have any experience with it. The really the thing for stabilizing uh the head of beer and whatnot. They have newer ones that are cheaper, but it's propylene glycol alginate, P G A. Uh and uh you can buy it from a homebrew shop under the name Heading Powder, or professionally one of the brand names of it's stable foam. And uh what PGA is uh it's a modified uh alginate, just like seaweed gel, like you'd get now.
+
+[31:52] PGA is one of the two or three hydrocolloids that are used by people that aren't all natural, doesn't occur in nature, and it's also fairly expensive, but uh unlike alginate, it is very good uh with in acidic environments, it's extremely stable, uh it's it's just a good stuff. And you use it in very, very low quantities, like somewhere in the range of like 80 parts per million or something like that. Very low quantities. Uh usually you'd make a water solution with it and then add a little bit of that water solution to your to your product before you uh do this the final fermentation with the yeast. Okay.
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+[32:26] Um this is what you add to to beer basically for uh a super super stable stable foam. Uh so I I would I would do that. Uh if you have a problem with using something that's not 100% natural like PGA, there are other things under the under the they're basically beer foam stabilizers that you can add, but I don't know what they're made out of. I assume it's like some sort of like busted up pectin or some sort of crazy thing that's uh you know, maybe a little bit cheaper than PGA or maybe uh a little bit more natural, you know, that than PGA, but that's that's what I would go for. Um the other thing is that uh the the head in in beer is related to the um is related to the kind of surface active principle of the of the liquid itself, which is why different liquids with the same amount of uh CO2 in them can have different kinds of heads in them, and why beers which have like uh a lot of uh especially those thick ones that have stuff left over from the uh from the barley and whatnot have a bigger head uh you know gaining potential.
+
+[33:25] So you could there are probably other ingredients you could add to your root beer that would increase the head. I don't happen to know off the top of my head what they are. I just know this you know, the whiz bang, add the PGA and go. Uh but I would definitely research that. There's been a lot of research done in the beer head uh point.
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+[33:40] Yeah? Good job. Yeah. Okay. Uh now, uh Andrew Switzer writes in with something that uh Nastasha, I don't know whether you checked it out, but you try yeah, so uh this is about Nastasha's famous but uh as yet unphotographed vegan face.
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+[33:56] And uh Andrew writes in and says that you should go to YouTube and type in uh sh sugar honey iced tea that a vegan would say. That's my way of saying that curse word on a family. Remember a family show now. I wonder how that project worked out, by the way. Anyway.
+
+[34:09] They said it worked out well. They called back in, I remember again? No, but I mean after that they were still working on it. We're talking about the low temp souvine thing. Anyway, uh, so yeah, crap that a vegan we'll say crap that a vegan would say, although it's not crap, it's another word that starts with S.
+
+[34:21] Uh, but you can look at that, but that guy doesn't have a vegan face. Like that's his normal face. Yeah. Well, he's a vegan. He is a vegan and he has a face.
+
+[34:31] Right. Yeah, but he's not making the face of a vegan. That's the face of a vegan, not Nastasha's vegan face. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[34:38] By the way, speaking of not vegan, my older son, you know, uh Booker says, Daddy, I like candy. Candy's my favorite. Dax, my younger one goes, I like meat. You like that? Yes.
+
+[34:49] That's good stuff. They like bagels too. Why are you trying to get me started on the air? Nastasha, by the way, so yesterday, uh any of you who have kids know that you take a kid out to lunch. You take the kid out to lunch, they don't eat, you're spending a lot of money, and they're like, first of all, if they're not eating, what are they doing?
+
+[35:05] They're shoving their finger up their nose, they're sneezing on the person next to them without covering their mouth, they're doing all sorts of horrible things. Uh, because of course that's the way it works, and they're not eating, so you're spending money and they're not eating, and what happens? You get angry, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.
+
+[35:14] So then uh Nastasha, like I had a problem, a piece of equipment broke. I was like, Nastasha, can you help me out? And can you uh you know watch the kids for a second? Yes, and so then she goes and and uh takes them out and buys them bagel, which sounds like a really good thing, except for basically it was a way as an end around for them to not eat the lunch that we bought them, right? Right.
+
+[35:39] And then Nastasha's like, uh, whatever. I don't even why am I even getting into this? This is crazy. All right, uh let's go to our second commercial break. Call in your questions too, 718-497-2128.
+
+[35:48] That's 718497-2128. I had a dying for every time I dreamed about you. Dreamed about you. I'll tell you. Yes, I'm really broken.
+
+[36:25] And uh should I do me back to love me? Are you gonna make your problem? You said that you have me. And now you're acting so straight. You say that you need me.
+
+[37:02] And welcome back to cooking issues. What was that one, Jack? Uh more Delphonics. Nice, beautiful. Uh, calling your questions too.
+
+[37:08] 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, uh, in case you were wondering, if I shouldn't do this, this is ridiculous. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get sued for this. Nastasha wants me to do this.
+
+[37:20] By the way, I am basically just Nastasha's puppet for this. But you're promoting his who he is. Yeah, but does he want promotion? Yes. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:29] Alright, so those of you, those of you who've listened to the show uh, you know, a lot, uh, you might know that there is a a character here at Roberta's uh a waiter that we call Indy Jesus. And uh we found out his name so that you can go look at his Facebook profile and you can see, you know, kind of what we're talking about. Because, you know, you know, very rarely we're here in a box. You don't know what we're talking about. Nasta Nastasha, I can't read his name aloud because I can't read your writing.
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+[38:00] Dante is his first name. Damien is his middle and Dolly. Dolly is his last name. Alright, so you know you should friend, be a fan, be a fan. Be a fan.
+
+[38:10] We want you to be a fan. This is I say we set up a date between Nastasia and him. Yep. Look, this is a fly. This is not a hate throwdown.
+
+[38:17] This is a this is a this is a love thing. This is a love thing. This is a love thing. Okay. Okay.
+
+[38:25] Mark Younger writes in. Hi, Dave and Nastasha. I've been listening to the podcast since late last spring, and it finally caught up. I noticed that Dave frequently gives low temperature cooking times, but then he never states at what temperature the food is when it is placed in the circulator. Well, for longer times, it just probably does not make any difference.
+
+[38:40] There are occasions when he talks about cooking uh some items, e.g., fish, for relatively short periods of time. So is there a general assumption that everything is coming straight from a refrigerator and therefore with a temper in the high 30s, or is there some other assumed starting temperature? Thanks, Mark Younger. Okay. This is an excellent question, actually, because we really haven't addressed this uh issue.
+
+[38:59] And the temperature at which the uh product starts does have an effect, obviously, on how long something takes to cook through. Now, most of the work that I do, uh, I'm assuming that something's getting pulled straight from the fridge just because I don't have time to have stuff sitting around for you know forever. Uh and so most of my work is straight from the fridge with a with I know there's some exceptions, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Uh most of my stuff comes straight from the fridge. That said, if you have a different temperature, there are programs like Sous V Dash that we talked about before on the uh on the program that will allow you to put the starting temperature of the of the product in so that you can figure out how long it takes.
+
+[39:39] The other thing is that I typically um something like a thin piece of fish, it's true that you don't want to cook it for too long. You don't want to cook it for you know more than 20 minutes or so, but that's enough time typically to make it up to temperature, whether or not the product if it's thin, very thin, uh whether the product starts at you know 38 or 48 uh you know Fahrenheit, because it's just you know, you have much more time than is needed. So I I usually try to build into my cooking technique uh enough time to make up for any sort of variance there is based on the initial temperature of the meat. Obviously, it's a big deal if you're trying to do a delta temperature or if you're working with razor thin margins. For instance, if you're doing fish that is cooked a la minute and you're using a delta T, let's say you're cooking a fish at s in a 60 degree water bath, but you only want the inside to make it up to like 55, 56 uh Celsius now or on Celsius, apologize going back and forth.
+
+[40:39] But uh then obviously the initial starting temperature is going to make a big difference. Um because in that case, you're you know counting on the seconds being right when you're cooking. And so for that, it's absolutely vital the temperature be the same every time. I don't think it's so vital if you've built in like a good 10 to 15% overage on the amount of time you're cooking, which is typically I'm at least at that number. But it's still it's an excellent question and something that be uh should be addressed.
+
+[41:05] I think fridge temperature is the easiest temperature because it's usually within uh you know two, three degrees, and so uh it's a good thing to start from. Yeah, and and again, as long as you can repeat it, then it doesn't really matter, right? You if if you did everything and it always started at the same temperature, then it wouldn't matter, it would just work the same, you just correct recipes, but fridge is easy to maintain, and that's what I use. Yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[41:27] Okay. Uh Harlan writes in uh hi Dave and Nastasha. I just ran across this great article in Smithsonian on potatoes. Have you seen it? Uh I had not seen it.
+
+[41:36] Go to Smithsonian Um Smithsonian Mag.com, how the potato changed the world. Uh, and then Harlan writes in there must be amazing kick-ass French fry possibilities in the thousands of varieties of potatoes they've got in Peru. Well, uh there are some amazing books on potatoes out. Uh, the article, by the way, is cool. You should read the article.
+
+[41:56] But there's some amazing books uh by about potatoes. I have one by the Brooklyn Botanic Brooklyn Botanical Garden has a whole series of books, by the way, one of which is like Tubers of the World, which is pretty cool, pretty kick butt little little book. Uh but uh here's uh some stuff that I thought was interesting from that article that I will share with you. Uh this is a quote from the article. Wild potatoes are laced with solanine and tomatine, toxic compounds believed to defend the plants against attacks from dangerous uh organisms like fungi, bacteria, and human beings.
+
+[42:23] Cooking often breaks down such chemical defenses, but not solanine and uh tomatine. This is why, by the way, when a potato turns green, uh that's chlorophyll, but it also indicates that other things are happening, including an increased solanine level, which is why you shouldn't eat potatoes that are green, or if you do, you should peel the hell out of them, which we've actually talked about on the show before. Um, here's the cool thing. In the mountains uh um of uh in the mountains, these animals I can't even pronounce, uh lick clay before eating poisonous plants. The toxins adsorb to the fine clay partial particles in the animal's stomach, passing through the digestive system without affecting it.
+
+[42:58] Mimicking this process, mountain peoples apparently learned to dunk wild potatoes in a gravy made of clay and water. How cool is that? Cool. Eventually they bred less toxic potatoes, though some of the old poisonous varieties remain favored for their resistance to frost, and clay dust is still sold in Peruvian and Bolivian markets to accompany them. So, first of all, there's this famous recipe uh from Mugaritz, right, uh, about dipping uh clay in ka sorry, dipping potatoes in kaolin, which is clay, right?
+
+[43:26] Uh and kaolin also great adsorber. It's uses the wine finding agent. Uh and so I don't even know if they know this. I don't even know if uh, you know, Andoni and the all those guys know this, but uh apparently this is a traditional uh thing to dip potatoes in clay or in some sort of kaolin thing. I thought that was pretty cool.
+
+[43:44] Uh pretty cool thing. Uh another thing that they mentioned in the article are chunio blanco, which chunio we've met I've mentioned this before, I think, on the air, but this is kind of inca freeze-dried potato, and basically they they these potatoes are like frozen and then thrown in a well and then frozen and and thawed again and they they dry out like really like old school like you know pre-technological freeze-drying technology. And uh Nastash and I made them thinking this is gonna be the most awesome thing in the world, and they smelled like uh like a like a goat's bedding. Right? Uh that's put a nice way to put it.
+
+[44:19] Like, and tasted like a goat's bedding. Uh and so, you know, I have a standing thing, and I'll repeat it now. Here's a standing offer. Uh I will give I don't know, Jack, can I do this? I will give a heritage meat of some type.
+
+[44:33] Can I do this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh Jack will pick out a nice heritage meat of some type, and I will give it to anyone that can phone or write in a decent way to prepare chunyo blanco potatoes that doesn't taste like uh like I just licked a live goat. I like that.
+
+[44:50] Yeah. What meat would go well with those potatoes? Goat. Goat. Well, I don't know if we have goat.
+
+[44:55] Oh yeah, but oh yeah, we can give away whatever you think, Jack. I mean, I'm sure, you know, I just want someone to write in with a good recipe. Uh the last interesting thing I'll mention from this article, extremely, extremely interesting, and it relates to uh goat poop, not really goats, but poop, is uh so apparently there's these islands that uh off of Peru, the uh Chincha Islands, that uh for you know, millennia were coated in bird poop, bird guano, right? And there started uh when they realized that uh guano had in it uh nitrogen and was useful for a fertilizer in the 1840s, there began a rush for mining and or collecting guano, shipping it uh over to Europe to use as a fertilizer, right? So literally people would go fill a boat up with poo and then take the poo across the ocean and sell the poo.
+
+[45:45] Right? Anyway, not you know, it's not it's no bat guano, it was bird guano, but anyway, you know, guano, guano's guano. Okay. Uh well, it turns out that the current research is that uh and I can't pronounce it, Phyto Thora Infestons, right, which is uh potato blight, right, was brought to Europe on a poop boat. A boat made out of poop?
+
+[46:10] Well, a boat full of poop. Yeah. So they were filled with poop, and one of those poop boats brought over the potato blight. So potato comes from Peru. Uh, and then also this blight, uh, apparently the native stock is is resistant, comes over, and that's what caused the potato famine.
+
+[46:27] Poop boats. Anyway, uh, happy new year from the poop boat. This is cooking issues. Uh oh, sorry, I have one more comment from uh somebody emailed in. Tell the live my mic is screwed up.
+
+[46:41] Tell the live caller about corn for knives. Oh, yeah. Oh, oh yeah, duh! Duh. That's Brian.
+
+[46:48] Out to Brian. Okay, going out to Brian. Go to Coran Knives. I can't believe I overlooked this. I've actually bought some Christmas presents there uh for my for my mom.
+
+[46:57] Uh here's my recommendation. Corin Knives sells like Japanese uh kitchen stuff, but they're known for their Japanese knives. It's the best Japanese knife place I've ever seen. Uh, here's the only issue with it. Bring money.
+
+[47:12] Bring lots of money. Because you can't go to Corinne without spending a lot of money because it's just so amazing. Cooking issues. Vicious Vicious vodka. Oh, you dead.
+
+[47:28] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
+
+[47:51] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. Thanks for listening. Now when my baby sees me, she's gonna bust my head right in. Oh you dirty rat.
+
+[48:34] Got me on this corner, and I don't
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere.
+
+[0:27] Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first step father. Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone.
+
+[0:41] Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com.
+
+[1:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you every Tuesday live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn from 12 to approximately 1245. Uh calling all of your cooking-related questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:38] That's 718497-2128. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasha The Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? I'm good. Yeah?
+
+[1:46] Mm-hmm. Good. Uh well, we haven't been here for a couple of weeks. Have a lot to talk about. A lot has happened in the in the uh last couple of weeks.
+
+[1:54] Uh well, the most important one being, uh, and I guess we'll talk about this more towards the end of the show, but we opened the bar. We're dax at Som is now open for business. And you can come to 13th Street and 2nd Avenue, where uh we've put our uh whatever it is, foot where our mouth is, money where our mouth is, whatever. Yeah. We're trying all of the techniques that for years I've been saying you can use in a bar or a restaurant.
+
+[2:20] And we're actually doing it and seeing whether it's working so far, I think it seems to be going pretty well. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. You enjoy the drinks?
+
+[2:25] You've been there as a customer a couple times. Yes, they're delicious. Yeah? All right. Anyway, we'll talk more about that later.
+
+[2:30] Uh and that's the reason we didn't have the show last week. I apologize. We're gonna try to do the show last week on Tuesday, but it was our first day of friends and family. And uh let's just put it this way uh getting everything ready was uh what we say, a poop show? Is that the family way to say it?
+
+[2:44] Yeah. Poop show? Yeah. Yeah, poop show. Uh even though it was our friends and family who are very forgiving folks, it was still you know, it's still quite a poop show.
+
+[2:53] We've ironed it all out. Come, come, come to the bar. Um But the weekend before that, a week before that rather, uh, I was in Sweden, which I'd never been before. Very nice uh in Sweden. I was uh brought there uh by the absolute people.
+
+[3:05] The the the absolute vodka was like, do you want an all expenses paid trip to Sweden and then get to go to an ice hotel? And what are you gonna say to that? But yes. Right? So anyway, so I went and I found out something interesting that I didn't know.
+
+[3:17] Our friend uh the uh bartender slash uh writer in New York Times, Toby Chicken. Uh did you know he and he basically invented slash popularized the cosmo, the cosmopolitan? I did not know that. Uh I learned that, of course, you know, a a proper Cosmo, if there's such a thing as a proper Cosmo, a uh it's actually an okay drink, right? It's just you don't like Nastasha's giving her vegan face because she doesn't drink vodka drinks, so it's basically Nastasha's vodka slash vegan face.
+
+[3:42] It's actually, look, everyone has the gripe against vodka. It's fairly neutral in a mixed drink of vodka, so it's just a question of like, you know, anyway whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. A Cosmo tastes fine. Uh, but in order to make a proper Cosmo, you need uh absolute citron, which is why Absolute was talking about it, because the popularity of the Cosmo was coincided with the launch of Absolute Citron here in the US. But but the point of the story is is that you would never peg Toby for the Cosmo guy.
+
+[4:09] And by the way, I know there's a lot of argument as to who invented the Cosmo, like there's these people out in San Francisco that say they do it. I don't really care. Absolute vodka basically says it is Toby. So if they say it's Toby, I'm gonna go with that. In fact, Dale de Groff, another one of our friends who was at the thing at the time, did not dispute.
+
+[4:23] He actually probably made it more popular because he was serving them to Madonna and Madonna drinking them in public, I think that's was a major spur to its popularity. Oh, it was Sex in the City. I believe Madonna came before Sex in the City. This is the problem with you being a two-year-old. Sex and City was much later.
+
+[4:39] In other words, it's already a popular drink. They sex in the City chose it as their iconic drink because it was already a popular drink among the inset in New York City of models and types like that. Hmm. Two-year-old. She's not actually two, by the way.
+
+[4:54] Uh so anyways, you would not expect this guy to be the Cosmo guy because he's kind of a tall professorial dude who speaks uh, you know, in very measured tones and wears tweed jackets. Would you expect that from the Cosmo guy? No. Anyway. Uh last thing I'll say about Sweden uh is that I got to ride a dog sled.
+
+[5:12] I saw. Dog sledding's pretty awesome. Dog sledding. Do you know that they they don't stop to poop or pee? They just pee and poop whether like they basically shoot it out while they're running.
+
+[5:21] And then they also they don't stop to drink, so they just eat snow while they're going. Wow. And that there's no rains. It's not like Yukon Cornelius. There's no kind of whip or anything like that.
+
+[5:30] You just basically tell the dogs go left, right? And they all run. Anyway, dog setting. On to the cooking questions. I don't know how uh Joseph, I apologize.
+
+[5:40] I'm gonna brutalize your last name because it contains an umlaut in a position I'm not used to. But Joseph uh Peter, what do you think? Peter? I don't know. P-E-T-H-O-UMA peter?
+
+[5:50] Anyway. Writes in about meatballs. Dave, I'm planning to make meatballs this week and I'm trying something new. The meatballs will be around 3.5 centimeters in diameter. That's like an inch and a half for us in uh in inch land, right?
+
+[6:01] Something like that. Cooked sous- vide, but not really sous-vide, because he says there's not going to be a vacuum seal so as not to destroy the texture. So, Joseph, you're not really cooking sous- vide, you're cooking low temperature, right? Sous-vide, it has to kind of be under a vacuum. And remember, I make that distinction specifically because the health department gets uh in, you know, gets all hot and bothered when you use vacuum here in the city, uh, but not for uh low temperature.
+
+[6:23] So I try to keep the term sous- vide under vacuum, separate from low temperature, which is temperature controlled cooking, or some people call it exact cooking, or there's a bunch of different terms people use. Anyway, uh I'm gonna cook them uh low temperature at 56 degrees Celsius, which is a good temperature for uh meatballs. If there's a high pork content, people might freak out. It's it's not gonna be a health issue, but it's just a question of what people want. 56 is gonna basically be a rare, you know, medium rare kind of uh a meatball.
+
+[6:49] So if you want it to be medium rare, it will taste great. It's just a question of visually whether you want it to look that way or not. Uh okay. Um I cook them for about 30 minutes. I would cook them actually longer if you want to tenderize uh the meat at those uh temperatures.
+
+[7:02] Uh see, when you're grinding it, you're tenderizing it, but in fact, you can tenderize the grounds even further. So we when when I do a hamburger, I'll cook it for several hours at uh 55 or 56 uh to really tenderize and cook the meat. Anyway, uh for 30 minutes, and afterwards the meatballs will be deep fried to finish them off at uh 350 degrees Fahrenheit for about two minutes. He's just like I am. He fries in Fahrenheit and uh fries in Fahrenheit and cooks in Celsius.
+
+[7:27] Crazy, just like me. Crazy. Anyway, uh go higher anyway. 350 is a little low, go like 365, and you don't need a full two minutes, although you can. Um I think this should give good results, and was wondering what you think.
+
+[7:37] Okay. Uh well when I cook meatballs, this is the technique I use, but you have to fry them before you cook them uh in the in the ziploc bags. And the reason why is otherwise they'll stick to each other. What you want to do is get oil fairly hot and you want to flash fry for like 30 seconds the meatballs, pull them out. Do not let them sit on a tray that will just break under their own weights at that point because you've heated the outside.
+
+[7:59] So you want to put them directly into a bag. I usually put them into a bag with butter, but you probably could cook them directly in your meatball sauce if you want. Uh and uh that's the way you cook them uh to stop them from breaking apart. Once they're cooked, they won't be as fragile. You could pull them out, uh flash fry them.
+
+[8:15] I I obviously would bag them in something like butter and not in the sauce if you're gonna do the flash fry afterwards, because you can't fry the sauce, it would be a nightmare. Another uh point, uh 56 is gonna be a little low for some of your customers. You might want to go a little bit higher, like 57, which is normally where I go. Uh and another point uh that I make other than saying cooking longer than the 30 minutes that you're cooking, is uh if you mix uh salt in and you almost always mix salt in with your meatball mix when you're when you're mixing it. Um, um it's the the the longer they stay when they're cooked, kind of the firmer they're gonna get, and the less you're gonna have that kind of a low temperature effect.
+
+[8:55] But on the other hand, the saltier and more delicious the meatballs will taste. So you have to kind of uh trade off how much salt and how much mixing, but you never want to make your meatball mix, you want to make your meatball mix right away fry it. Uh make your meatballs right away fry it and then put it in the bag, and that's gonna kind of give you your best results. And the more salt and the more kneading you do to your meatballs, the more they're gonna get firmly packed, like a like a like a sausage or like a puck, and the less they'll be like a hamburger. So it depends on how you want your meatballs.
+
+[9:23] Some people like their meatballs very loose, in which case you're gonna want to add m more uh more wet, more filler, less salt, less kneading, or firmer, in which case more salt, more more kneading, uh, and longer keep times. Does that make sense? Yep. Okay. Uh on to the next question.
+
+[9:41] Uh Naveen, our good friend Naveen from uh from Harvard, who was uh the TA, het T, I think, right? Yeah. Head TA in the uh Harvard's food science course, uh friend of ours and a uh vegetarian that Nastasha uh ruthlessly berates him for for no apparent reason. Apparent reason. What apparent reason?
+
+[10:01] He is the food TA. He's a food T, so what? Why can't he be a vegetarian? How's he able to taste all of the wonderful things that those awesome chefs who go up there do? Well, first of all, it's not about that.
+
+[10:14] It's about teaching like science and and cooking. And and you're there, there's not like they're making a lot of food for people to taste. Still science and cooking, and you only eat vegetables. I mean, I don't I don't see I don't I don't get you. All right.
+
+[10:27] I don't get you. You don't eat half half the things in the world you eat but you don't like. Yeah, I eat. Whatever. Anyway.
+
+[10:32] Uh Naveen writes in, it was great to see you at Harvard last year. Did we did a couple of lectures last year at Harvard? Several of the students told me how much they enjoyed your demos during the science and cooking class. Must have been somebody else. My demos were a poop show, right?
+
+[10:43] Big show. Anyway. There is a group of them who are inspired to do more research into cooking-related science projects as part of a spring class that they're doing. So I was wondering if you had any ideas for them, which could be free uh RD, RD for you. Well, this is actually a complicated question.
+
+[10:58] I'd have to think of what would be kind of appropriate for an undergrad to experiment with the kind of level of cooking that level of cooking equipment that they have there at Harvard. I mean, there's a ton of research that I would love to do that involves lab equipment that we don't own, but not cooking. And uh, you know, some of the similar uh stuff that uh, you know, Ariel, our friend Arielle's doing over in uh at UC Davis with um checking how food reacts and doing qualitative tests on food. For instance, she's working on what happens to lime juice as it's stored over time. There's a whole bunch of tests like that that I like running.
+
+[11:32] Um I don't know. I'm gonna Naveen, I'm gonna have to give that some thought. And also, if anyone out there has any interesting projects, maybe email them in to us, right? Mm-hmm. But uh Naveen, I'm gonna give you more thought on that.
+
+[11:42] I'm gonna come back to you next week with some uh good ideas. By the way, speaking of RD, uh one of my former interns, Liz Button, who has um a restaurant in uh in North Carolina, came into the bar last night for research. You like that? That's nice research, huh? Going to drink?
+
+[11:57] Yeah. That's some good research. I like to get that research job. Anyway, uh, okay. We have a question in, uh actually without a name, so I'm sorry, I don't know who you are.
+
+[12:07] But uh says, hello, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Carlos. Jack actually not here today. Not here. Lazy. Just kidding.
+
+[12:17] Just kidding. Uh one. My wife and I are gonna be in New York City for the week of March 6th for our honeymoon. Wait, so are you already married or are you gonna be married? Did you take a delayed honeymoon?
+
+[12:28] Probably delayed. Everyone does delay too. Really? Why? They don't have the money, they don't have the time.
+
+[12:29] Wait, so they want to get married on particular date, but they don't have the money and or time. You think it's more money or more time usually? Time. Time? They don't want to schedule the wet the wedding for when they have time.
+
+[12:43] Right. Okay. I'm just trying to understand this. Because you gotta remember, uh, when I had my honeymoon, I was like three years old. I was twenty-four, and I had nothing but I had no money, but it's not like I was gonna make money in the next couple of months after that.
+
+[12:55] And I did you go? And I had time. Went to Italy. Italy. Uh anyway, uh it was like 17 years ago.
+
+[13:02] Anyway, uh we're going to hit Roberta's for lunch on Tuesday. Roberta's honeymoon. Anyway. Uh asked for Indy Jesus. Oh yes!
+
+[13:12] You have to get served by Indy Jesus. He's stoking the fire, right? Actually, he's stoking the fire, but he's like indie motorcycle Jesus now. He's got like the Greek fisherman's hat that like you know, motorcycle dudes from the 50s and 60s used to wear, you know? You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[13:25] Looks he looks he's in rare form today, Indy Jesus. And he just Indy Jesus decided before he came to work today what the temperature was gonna be outside, because he's got like a sheerling jacket on. He gets outside, it's like a million degrees in New York today because of global warming. He's still wearing the warm jacket just because of the look. Anyway, love that, love that.
+
+[13:42] Anyways, please get served by Indie Jesus. And uh yes, you can actually watch us tape our show if that interests you. If you're here between 12 and 1245, if you sit in the outside area, you can watch us tape the show. Uh okay. Uh and he imagines uh our secret operation will be up and running by then.
+
+[13:59] Yes, it's the bar the secret operation is the bar, and it already is up and running, so we can talk about it. Anyone can call in any questions about the bar right now they want to at 718-497-2128. Uh and we're planning on hitting a couple of the Momofuku properties while we're in town anyway. Uh that means our project. Hopefully, the milk bar cookbook inspired uh my actual and next first question.
+
+[14:20] What is the deal with glucose syrup? What I understand is that is it a mix it is a mix of water, glucose, maltose, and other longer chain maltodextrins. Sounds like the ratio of those determines the sweetness and the viscosity and the total solids content, which are all important to uh prevent uh fermentation. Um I guess fermentation you means of the syrup. I've got recipes calling for DE40 and DE20 glucose syrup, but at the store I can just buy normal corn syrup uh or more expensive clear corn syrup, which seems to have vanilla flavoring at it.
+
+[14:51] Uh uh any idea what the likely dextrose equivalent of these things in the supermarket is. Uh I already have a big bag of dextrose and was meaning to buy a bunch of endsorbit anyway. Can I just mix up some homemade glucose syrups from powder dextrose, maltose, and malso dextrins? Are there standard ratios for the different DEs? I think that it is more community to stock powders and sticky syrups, but does anybody actually do that?
+
+[15:12] Okay, here's the here's the problem. There's a lot of terminology, uh a lot of terminology issues. Um it's gonna be very difficult for you to make glucose syrup from powder just because the bricks uh level of a uh well, it it's really silly to call it bricks, but the solids content of of those uh glucose syrups is upwards of 80%. They're extremely stiff, extreme you know, so you you you're not gonna be able to make one of them without applying heat, probably. Uh you're not just gonna be able to dissolve it and and make it.
+
+[15:40] You're gonna have to heat it and then um take it to a certain temperature. The answer for which temperature, which I'd have no idea. Uh you're m you're better off they last basically forever. So you're better off buying uh a pail of it from like modernist pantry if they sell it. I don't know if they sell it.
+
+[15:57] They say they'll stock any dang thing. So, you know, you should go get it. So and for those of us that don't know what we're we're talking about, glucose syrups are a very unfortunately named thing. Glucose is uh obviously a simple sugar and it is sweet, right? So sucrose is made up of glucose and fructose together.
+
+[16:17] It's a uh you know a disaccharide and and and that's what it is. Um glucose starch, by the way, is made up of a repeating long, long repeating chain of glucose units. When you break down starch, you break it down into like starch, maltodextrins, and dextrins, which are you know longer, like shorter uh numbers of glucose units glued together, right? All the way down to maltose, which is a sweet sugar, which is two glucoses, right? So sucrose is a glute, glucose and a fructose, maltose is two glucoses, and then you break it all the way down to glucose.
+
+[16:52] Uh now glucose uh unfortunately is known by glucose and dextrose. I don't know why they can't just have one name, but they have two, right? And the dextrose equivalent of a glucose syrup is the percentage of sugars in not that are glucose, because that would be or dextrose, that would be too damned easy, right? It's it's the percentage of the uh things in it that are uh what's called a reducing sugar. Glucose is a reducing uh sugar uh because uh I guess because of the aldehyde unit on the end of the of the thing.
+
+[17:24] But anyway, so it's all very complicated. And and different um different sugars, different things with different DEs, right? Because they have different sugars in them. Uh certain words, something can have uh uh contribute to the dextrose equivalent, but not contribute to the sweetness, right? So nothing makes any damn sense.
+
+[17:43] There's no direct relationship between sweetness and dextrose equivalent or or anything. Dextrose equivalent, typically though, I mean not typically, always, the lower the dextrose equivalent, the less sweet the product is. Okay. And also, uh the lower the dextrose equivalent, basically, the less broken down it is. So the higher the dextrose equivalent, the more it's been broken down to glucose, and typically the sweeter uh it is.
+
+[18:05] Okay. Now, uh the reason I think it's silly that they call it glucose syrup is because uh it's not very sweet at all. You know, I mean it's it's hardly sweet at all. I use it all the time in things like ice creams. I use DE twenty glucose syrup when I want to take an ice cream and I want to uh get the texture right, but I don't want to uh have it sweet because it's really not sweet at all, a DE20, uh, compared to uh normal sugar or you know, a a very sweet corn syrup.
+
+[18:37] Uh so I'm not being very helpful. I wouldn't use ensorbit. Uh ensorbit is a particular kind of malto, and so the reason it's the composition of those things is basically they take starch and they break it down into various soluble things like maltodextrin, maltose, dextrins, and and glucose. Uh uh ensorbit is gonna be an expensive way to try and uh make it. You you could instead of trying to make a syrup, try to get the recipe by adding straight powders, but it's gonna be really complicated.
+
+[19:02] I wasn't able to find anyone that does that. Uh, but I can look more and see whether I can come up with anything uh for uh uh next time. Does this make any sense what I'm saying? We have to go to a break. All right, one second.
+
+[19:13] One second. And uh the last comment is the show is great, guys. Thank you very much, appreciate it. And Jack is doing an amazing job with the music. We'll see how Carlos does today.
+
+[19:23] But how about bringing back doing it to death and bad bad whiskey for one more show sometime? We'll think on it. Thanks so much. It's a rocky little regular one my job you to play. You know, messing this is lasting out the two box full of views.
+
+[20:03] I've got a rocking pneumonia. I need a shot of rhythm of loss. I think I call it on the ladder, sitting down by the rhythm reviews. Rockin' in two by two. Well, if you feel it maggots, you get your lover and reel and rocket.
+
+[20:26] Roll it over and move over. Just travel around the real. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[20:43] The uh the Beatles version of uh of that song, huh? What do you mean that's George? You said it was the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, I know, but it's George singing it. Okay.
+
+[20:53] Yeah. Uh so uh obviously I like the Chuck Berry version better. Nastasha probably likes the Beatles version better because she's a beetlehead. What do you think? Beatles, Italy, that's all I think about.
+
+[21:03] That's true. Uh my question is: how do you get a rocking pneumonia? Like, in what sense is pneumonia rocking? Like you like, you try to breathe, you can't because your lungs are full of fluid. Like, what's what's so rocking about an pneumonia?
+
+[21:14] I think the least rockin' disease. No, I got a rockin' pneumonia. I need a shot of rhythm and blues. From rock music, he would prefer rhythm and blues. But rock and roll comes from rhythm and blue, it doesn't make any sense.
+
+[21:27] Okay. Makes no damn sense. And like nothing is less lung clogged than rock and roll. Think of a think of a more saying his lungs are clogged with rock and roll. And be rock and roll is non-clogging.
+
+[21:39] It's a non-clogging situation. For him it is. Yeah, whatever. Not ever. Anyway.
+
+[21:44] And it's and the Beatles are saying that their lungs are clogged with rock? Give me a break. Just give me give me a big big give me a big bad break on that. I do not hate the Beatles. He Dave thinks the Beach Boys are far superior to the Beatles.
+
+[21:58] I did not say that. What I said is well-known fact that at the time there was kind of like a rivalry of who could be more of a badass. And when uh Pet Sounds came out, everyone was like, oh my god, Pet Sounds, like the most important blah blah album, blah blah blah. And then Sgt. Pepper came out, and then Beach Boys were like, no.
+
+[22:16] Yes. Basically, that's the that's the rock and roll history in a nutshell on cooking issues. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies and only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution.
+
+[22:34] They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. I have a question. Isn't the home cooking enthusiast the same person? No. Who's an enthusiast that's not a home cook?
+
+[22:46] Home cook or enthusiast. Because some women who work at or who cook at home aren't enthusiastic about having to cook for their family. If they're not enthusiastic, are they calling Modernist Pantry to get some crazy ingredients? No. Alright.
+
+[22:59] And most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space, which is a big deal here in New York City. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, verified by us. Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients.
+
+[23:22] Modernist Pantry now carries the complete line of texturus products by Ferron Adria. Fans of cooking issues at place in order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free texturous ingredient to experiment with. Simply use the promo code cooking issue. Oh, sorry, CI69 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com.
+
+[23:40] Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Alright. Now listen, I love Ferron. All props to Ferron. Love Ferron.
+
+[23:48] All props. But my problem with the texturus line of ingredients is that they don't say on them exactly what they are. So it's hard to sub other things out for it, and it's hard to develop recipes other than the recipes they've printed. So for instance, Ferrand's gel an, it's just called, I don't know if it's called, like gel in or something like that. It's a mixture of two different gel ans.
+
+[24:08] I mean, I happen to know what it is. It's like 25% of the uh of the stretchy high ACEL stuff and 75% of the low ACEL, non stretchy stuff. But I mean it that's my one issue. I wish that they would just tell you exactly what's in it, exactly what's in it. Because people would buy it anyway.
+
+[24:24] You know what I mean? It's not like they'd have to worry. It's not like people would go. You know what I mean? But they he should just tell you exactly what's in it because it's only going to foster better research by cooks.
+
+[24:35] That's my only gripe. Would you agree or disagree? Yes, I agree. She hasn't really she hasn't listened to what I'm saying. She just gonna she just agreed.
+
+[24:40] Yeah. Yeah, but we're doing a show right now. We're doing a show. Anyway. Um I had another uh question about modernist pantry, but I forget.
+
+[24:51] Anyway, they seem like good people. Uh what? Good people. Good peeps. Good people.
+
+[24:56] Okay. Uh yes, I'm an idiot. Okay. Okay. Matthew writes in, hey y'all, pork shoulder I called in about last week.
+
+[25:07] Of course that's three weeks ago now. Came out insanely good. I'm glad. I went for 58 degrees Celsius for about 34 hours. I brined it in a basic salt and sugar brine for twelve hours before cooking.
+
+[25:17] Seared it in a cast iron grill. Griddle sear it seared it in a cast in a cast iron grill? On a cast iron grill, probably. Right? A or a grilled pan, maybe.
+
+[25:25] I'm not sure. Uh, and circulated it with uh olive oil, a bit of reduce vermouth and aromatics. My girlfriend said it was the best meat she ever tasted. Well. I'm not Nastasha, you are you are a messed up individual and this show is not gonna go that way.
+
+[25:38] So I'm just gonna skip on past that. My girlfriend said she was the best meat she ever tasted, uh, so that was good. One thing that surprised me was that the meat was not as pink as I expected it would be at that temperature. It had slight rosiness to it, but not in medium rare appearances I anticipated. Uh that didn't really matter as it was incredibly juicy and tender in a good way.
+
+[25:56] Okay. Uh two things. One, when you cook something at uh at fifty-eight for only a little bit of time, like an hour, uh it's gonna be very uh it's gonna be very pink. When you cook for a long time at fifty eight, it's gonna be rosy, but you're gonna lose uh some of that pinkness. That loss is also gonna be enhanced by the brining.
+
+[26:14] I think the brining uh is gonna firm it and also give you that color change a little more towards the other side. So if you wanted to stay rosier, I would not brine it, but then you won't have the same flavor, right? Or not cook it as long, but then you won't have the same texture. So I just don't think you're gonna get uh that color. Also, Bruno Gusot, I mean I can't even know where this came from because this is pulling out like information he gave me like you know, eight years ago or something like that.
+
+[26:39] But uh says that if you were to store that package uh in very low, low temperature for a long, long time, the rosiness would come back. Weird, right? Mm-hmm. Anyway, uh he told me that a long time ago. Of course, I've never run the test because I don't store uh unfrozen meats for a long, long time, which is not my uh not my thing.
+
+[26:57] My question today, however, this is going back to what Matthew was saying, is about pork shanks. I'm gonna be cooking about 30 pork shanks for an upcoming event I'm doing. I'm leaning towards circulating them. I'm hoping if I max out my bath size, which is purportedly 30 liters for the sous vide professional, I can do them all in one batch. I plan to brine them overnight, sear them, and then circulate them similarly to the pork shoulder for 34 hours or so, but at a higher temperature, maybe 65.
+
+[27:23] Do you think this is a good time and temperature strategy? My goal is for them to be super tender and delicious, but not necessarily falling apart like a traditional braise. The second part of this question is on deep frying them post braise. The location of the event does not have great ventilation. I'd like to deep fry the shanks as far ahead of the guests arriving as possible so that if I smoke the place out, uh it happens when people aren't around.
+
+[27:43] After frying, I plan on letting them cool on racks and then heat them up in a cider agro dolce glaze. Ooh, more time. Uh glaze just before serving. Do you think they can hold next page? Well, for a couple of hours after deep frying and before serving.
+
+[27:57] Obviously, they won't be as crispy, but my only alternative would be to use the crappy broiler in the household type oven present at the event to post sear them at service time. Uh okay. And he says he would have called in this question, but uh hopefully, as I answer this question, he's eating Lulo in Cartagena, which is good. Lulo is the amazing fruit that they eat in Colombia that makes great drinks. Anyway, I hope the Lulo is delicious.
+
+[28:19] Uh I'm sure it is. You know, I can now find frozen Lulo in New York. I bought some. It was okay. It wasn't.
+
+[28:24] I bought my local supermarket, had like a package of frozen Lulo that I guess got shipped by mistake from Columbia. I don't know. But it wasn't as good as the fresh. I mean, it would probably make an okay drink, but it wasn't great. Anyway, so uh, first of all, 65 Celsius is I think too high.
+
+[28:38] I think you're gonna want to do 62 or 63 Celsius. 65 is a little bit over, and it's the point where you're gonna get a lot of contraction and you're gonna get uh a lot more moisture loss from um the muscle. I would do six, I think 30 34 hours might be okay. You might want to go like a little bit longer, and I would do it at like uh 62, maybe 62 in that range. That's gonna give you a nice not pink, really uh nice texture uh if you cook it for 34 to 48, okay?
+
+[29:10] Uh but 65 seems a little high to me. Um and it won't fall apart. These things will never, though they'll get mushy, but they won't break apart like a traditional braise. And the reason why is because the collagen, even though it gets soft and it turns to gelatin, doesn't melt out of the structure, so it doesn't literally fall apart because it hasn't lost its structure. The structure's just gotten soft.
+
+[29:30] Okay. Uh as regards frying them post braise, what I would do, you can you can pull them out of the bag. I would pull them out of the bag, give them a quick fry before the people come to develop a little bit of a crust on the outside, and then I would uh throw them into a uh I would throw them directly into the sauce in Ziploc bags and keep them warm in your circulator. That's what I would do. Uh because you yeah, you're gonna lose the crust, but it's gonna soak up the sauce.
+
+[29:57] I wouldn't keep them on racks because look, it's not the crust that's most important on something like a braise, it's the kind of sauce and the integration. So I would let it integrate with the sauce. I would just put the crust to give you a little bit of variation between the outside and the inside. Um anyway, that's that's my that's my opinion. The other thing is is if you're going to uh cook it this way and you want it to taste the most like tender meat and not like a traditional braise, I would do the low temperature on the stuff without a sauce at all.
+
+[30:26] And without salting it, although if you're gonna brine it, it's gonna be brine, it's gonna have salt in it. But if you want it to taste the most like f like fresh, like fresh pork, but only a shank and cooked, then I wouldn't salt it at all, and I would just add the salt and everything else went right before you fry it, and then bag it with the sauce and the sauce will soak in. That's up to you. But if you are gonna cook it with a sauce in the bag, then you're gonna have to hyper hyper reduce that sauce. Or otherwise when the meat gives up its juices, it's gonna taste poached, which is I don't think what you're looking for.
+
+[30:56] Another thing I'd be very careful of is if you're gonna max out your bags, uh your your if you're gonna max out the size of your circulator, right? You're gonna have a problem because w you could possibly have a problem because all of the meat is touching each other and in the center, it's gonna take a long time for the uh meat to get up to cooking temperature, right? So if it's sitting there for and it takes a good five, six, seven hours for the center of the of the packages of meat, because there's no circulation there, to come up to temperature, you could have a problem with uh lacto uh lactic acid bacteria growing in that bag. Probably won't kill you, right? But it's gonna smell terrible, and you're gonna get puffed up bags.
+
+[31:36] And this is what happens all the time when people uh pack their circulators too tight and they're cooking at a low temperature uh for a long period of time. So what's the remedy? Uh there are several remedies. One, don't pack it too tight. Uh the second one is to uh take a pan of uh a pot of simmering water and put the bags in for like into the simmering water for like 35 45 seconds, right?
+
+[32:04] Uh when the meat is still cold, and uh and you're killing the bacteria on the outside without doing too much overcooking, and then put them in the circulator bath, and then you've killed all the bacteria on the outside, and you're not gonna have a problem, right? Make sense? Mm-hmm. Anyway, uh so those are my uh those are my comments. Uh what do you think?
+
+[32:22] Do you think I need to say anything else about that? No, I don't think so. No? Should we go to our second commercial break? Okay.
+
+[32:26] Let's go to our second commercial break. Cooking issues! This is a house that's jackbilly. Remember the south. This was the land that it works by hand.
+
+[32:40] It was the dream of it a bright man. There was a room that was filled with love. It was a love that I was proud of. This is a lot of bad plan on the love of flame old and the house that jackets. The house to justify.
+
+[32:55] Remember the cells. Now won't affect that hell now, love. Yes, it will tell. Yes, it is in the house, it ain't no longer. This is the love that happens battle.
+
+[33:21] The use of it. You know, I brought it on myself and over that. But it's that I did not understand. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[33:42] 718-497-2128. And the house that Jack built signifying that Jack is back in the studio, people. What's up? Howdy, how you doing? So I take back my laziness comments.
+
+[33:51] Awesome. Oh wow, really? I missed all that. I was, you know, when you're not here, I rough you up. That's how it works.
+
+[33:57] Oh man. Even though I wasn't here last week, so like You should hear what we say when you're not here. Oh, on the radio. Oh man. Oh, we're gonna have one of our listeners is gonna come in on on uh in the week of March 6th on a Tuesday, and hopefully gonna be served by Indy Jesus.
+
+[34:13] We have to check his schedule. Right? Anyway. Uh Ken Ingber, long uh long time listener, Ken Ingber, writes in and uh says that uh he's asked me several questions about the uh new uh coffee machine, the Breville 900XL, which I say I've never tried. He bought one and and he likes it.
+
+[34:30] So maybe we'll get to try it someday. I don't know. You know, Dave Chang and uh and uh Christina Tozie from Milk Bar, Breville loves those guys. Like, if you walk into Milk Bar, uh Commissary, right? Uh it is basically it's like a Breville factory.
+
+[34:46] There's like so many Breville things there. But uh again, I have no I have no comments, but uh Ken seems to enjoy his he's writing in this is a long term. Someday I will try one and I will give my review on here of the new. But I think I think they're going to stop by the bar this week. Brevel people.
+
+[35:02] Yes. And we'll give you one. Well, look, the the gig with the Breville thing is that uh it was apparently designed by a uh like a barista, like an award-winning barista to be good for what they want. Again, but you know, my problem is is that and it's the same problem we we lost that sponsor that time is because if I don't know whether a product's good or bad, I won't say whether it's good or bad. No, you'll just say that's probably bad.
+
+[35:24] That's not true. But look, those guys, I'm I'm not gonna mention any names, but those guys who stopped being our sponsor after I started wise cracking made marketing claims that did not make sense to me. Right? I mean, I mean, you know, I I do have my limits, Nastasha. Anyway, uh okay.
+
+[35:42] Have an interesting question in uh from uh Julie Madras of what how do you think you pronounce that town in Wisconsin? Beloit? Mm-hmm. Beloit? It's not Belois.
+
+[35:54] Hopefully not. Hopefully, hopefully it's not pronounced like the actual French is pronounced. Really? Yeah, I guess not, right? Beloit!
+
+[36:03] Anyway, uh Julie Madris writes in I have been looking forever for a website that could show me all of the fish that are skin fish. Uh now pay attention, skin fish. My mother has allergies to shellfish and scale fish, and we find it very hard to get straight answers from the grocery stores, seeing how half of them are not uh what's it, half of them are not manned like it used to be in the meat department. So in other words, there's no one there to tell you what's going on. So I thought it would be right, uh I thought it'll be uh right to you with your knowledge about food to see if I can enlist your help.
+
+[36:32] We try very hard not to give her something wrong, and she just loves fish. All right. This is an interesting uh question. So uh off the top of my head, before I did any research, right? It seems to me that it's actually not the scales.
+
+[36:47] I'm gonna let's ignore the shellfish, because shellfish you know what to stay away from. So the question is scale fish versus skinfish. Now, m nine I've my right off the top of my head, for me it says 99%. It's not the actual scales, right, that is the problem. It's just that scale fish are the problem, which means that all fish that uh in that same group are the ones that cause the problem.
+
+[37:09] And sure enough, that's the case. Uh most fish allergies, right? Fin fish allergies, are uh alert uh allergies to certain uh proteins, parvalbumin, certain parvalbumins that are in in the f in fish, uh, and they cause a um uh an allergy because your body develop or some people's body develop a specific antibodies to them and they have allergic reactions, okay? Now, here's how the world uh works. Uh basically you gotta look at the evolutionary chain.
+
+[37:40] So you go keep going back in the evolutionary chain uh to the point where the first fish developed those proteins that they're uh that your mom's allergic to, and then any of the fish that branch off from that, she's probably allergic to, right? So it turns out that uh what she's most likely allergic to is teleost fish, right? And teleost fish are uh fish with what's called ray scales, uh, and so they're they're they're scales, normal, normal scales. So all you need to do to find out whether or not uh you should stay away from it, most likely, is to look and see whether it is a teleost fish. Now, what's a non-teleost fish?
+
+[38:20] Eels, lamp rays, sharks, right? Like any cartilaginous fish, right? Typically, not gonna probably be probably be a problem. Uh anything that's not uh part of that group. Now, there's also most likely a bunch of teleost fish that are okay.
+
+[38:37] I just don't happen to know what they are. And for the research backup on this, I found it uh an article that's called uh Quantitative Eliza for determination of fish in foods by uh Christian Fest and Christian Plassen, 2007, uh, where they were trying to figure out uh ways to measure with an Eliza test uh to look for these uh allergens that are in food. And um basically what they say is that the uh allergic reactions are strongest for taxonomically closely related species, right? Uh, due to the major uh allergen in fish, which is parvalbumin, and that accounts for over 95% of all uh allergens, uh fish allergy. Uh uh it's basically 95% of the allergies uh related to fin fish are because of this uh protein, right?
+
+[39:29] And so parvalbumins are found in great amounts in the white muscles of lower vertebrates uh and lesser and higher vertebrates. Um anyway, so that is uh that so just look up and see what kind of uh fish you're dealing with, and you shouldn't have a problem, right? Nastasha's like that makes no goddamn sense. No, no, no, no, no, no. So Nastasha, I'm gonna have to look up from your email for a minute because we're gonna talk about the bar now on the way up.
+
+[39:58] He's upsetting you. Why is he upsetting you? Why is he upsetting you? Why Ken is our Ken is our good friend? He says, it looks like Rebel's giving you your own 900 XL.
+
+[40:08] Right. And I was like, yes, but I didn't want to say that they're giving it to us 100% because it's not for certain. And then you said, Dave is right, stop reading your email. And I was like, Well then don't email me in the middle of the show. Wow.
+
+[40:20] Wow, you see, now, Ken, you now you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis. It was right on Ken's side. Oh, squarely on Ken's side. Look, a listener, look, a listener is just like in a restaurant is your customer. They're always right.
+
+[40:37] Right? Am I wrong about this? Anyway. Jack's not answering. J Jack's not sure.
+
+[40:43] We have a lot of different listeners on this network. Anyway, I'm coming down quir squarely on uh on uh Ken's side on this one. Anywho. So let's talk about the bar for a minute. All right?
+
+[40:55] Mm-hmm. So what what do you want to say about the bar? Nothing. It's a great space. There's usually a wait, so make sure you get there early.
+
+[41:03] Or call or uh can we call in advance? Can you call in this show up and put your name in the water? Our bar manager is Tristan Willie, who is at uh you know, Death and Co's uh sister bar, Morie Margot, and also at PDT. Uh and he's having a uh a great time, I think. We have um we're we're we're pulling out we haven't pulled out all the stops yet.
+
+[41:23] We still have some stops left to pull, you know, i if you were using organ terms. We still have some stops left to pull. But uh right now we have um four carbonated things on the menu and uh I think we do a pretty good job of carbonating. I don't have I'm not I haven't put on my new carbonation system yet. First of all, I'm building a new one that's gonna be like it's gonna be really good.
+
+[41:46] Let me just put it this way it's gonna be really good. I was gonna say, it's the Cadillac of Carbonation Systems, but that makes me look bad because it's better than it's like the Maybach. It's the Maybach of co uh was that good? Is that what they're called? That really expensive car?
+
+[41:58] Anyway, a really good carbonation system putting in. For now, though, we're using um old school bottle carbonation, uh, the same as everyone uses with the carbonator caps, the liquid bread carbonator caps, just because that's the best system uh that I've used so far. Uh the system that I've built, my first generation system that I built is maybe 80 to 90% as good as that, uh, but has the advantage of being a la minute. But until I'm a hundred percent as good as the bottle or better, I'm not gonna use it. Does that make sense?
+
+[42:26] Um we have a uh finally a legally uh a legally roto vaped uh product on our menu. We have the uh horseradish which goes into our lady of the night, which is a really I think it's a good cocktail, um, which also has it's basically a clarified bloody merry, but just you know, everything's clarified. The Worcestershire's clarified, the tomatoes clarified, the sriracha is clarified, and then we use the horseradish distillate. So we have rotovap, we have the uh centrifuge, we're figuring out how bar prep works to have all of those things prepped for a bar. It's kind of halfway between a kid's prep and a bar prep.
+
+[42:59] But it's pretty interesting, and I think we've ironed out um most of the kinks as far as service goes. So uh I welcome any questions on kind of flow at the bar or how it's working or what we're doing. And we're liquid nitrogen chilling almost every dang glass, right? That's the bartender seem to enjoy that, right? People seem to enjoy it.
+
+[43:16] Oh, and we have the red hot poker on the menu. I've never had a red-hot poker. The red hot poker, for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, is basically a it's a poker that is red hot. It's a uh a stick that I build that uh heats up to about 1500 Fahrenheit, and you plunge it into a drink and the drink catches on fire. And I've used them at the SCI before, but they've never been on this long this often before.
+
+[43:37] So uh we're really putting them through their paces and seeing how to make them make them work. I streamlined it. They now cost less than a hundred dollars for me to make a piece, and so hopefully uh we can uh the bartenders don't seem to mind it, right? No. No, not anymore.
+
+[43:51] No one's gotten burnt. Mm-mm. Anyway, uh it's a lot of fun. So come in, have some red hot poker drinks, have some uh have some liquid nitrogen chilled glasses but most of all at Booker and Dax at a new bar we're just trying to make delicious cocktails we use a lot of tech but really the tech doesn't matter it's all about delicious cocktails on a final note now that I have that thing uh started up and I have a all of a lot of a little about a lot of other things in motion I'm gonna try to get the the blog back up and running again. Nastasha's giving me my whatever face she has two faces the vegan face slash vodka face is a face of kind of disgust like she just stepped on a roach whereas uh whereas this other lake is a look is a look of eh whatever you know whatever right that's the blog starting look but I gotta figure a better name for it anyway uh it's good to be back sorry about the two week wait uh be back next week sure thing cooking issues uh thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network you can find all of our archived programs on heritageradio network dot com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows you can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching heritage radio networks in the iTunes store you can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information thanks for listening you got my head all twisted and I guess can't get it straight
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live. On time. On time and live from the Heritage Radio Network here in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:35] Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez in the engineering room. We have Jack and Carlos with us today. Hello. Hello. Call in all your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[0:44] Is that right? Yeah. 7184972128. Uh cooking questions. Any kind of questions, really.
+
+[0:49] We'll take anything you got. Is that true, Nastash? That's true. We take them all. Okay.
+
+[0:53] So, uh anything good happening? No. We only have 45 minutes, so you should get through. You see, but that they the custom the customers don't care about that. Okay.
+
+[1:01] Yeah. Uh you can like save that for the break. So the uh so and i there actually we're gonna we're gonna there there are some there are some listener comments on Nastasha later, which we'll get into. Um yeah, it should be fun. So uh this is the second week of uh the Booker and Dax bar that uh we opened, Booker and Dax at some.
+
+[1:19] How do you think it's going there, Nastasha? Oh wonderful. Well, from a drink standpoint. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:25] It's a it's it's it's different. Actually, uh, you know, starting something, it's uh it's a lot of fun. Anyway. Hello, Dave and Nastasha from Matthew. I'm a longtime listener and a first-time emailer.
+
+[1:35] I was recently gifted uh with a um okay now here's it's a knife, right? We're talking about a knife here. I've never actually pronounced the brand out out loud. It's very well regarded knife. It's it's spelled Glestain, but I believe it's pronounced Glyston.
+
+[1:49] G-L-E-U-S-T-A-N-S-T-A-I-N. Anyway, uh I was recently gifted uh with a Glyson uh Gyoto, which is a Japanese uh it's a basically a Japanese chef's knife, like look looks like a Western style knife, but it's Japanese. So uh a um Glyston uh uh Gyoto knife, it's sharpened on one side, more on that later, and it's left-handed, uh, which means they paid a lot more for it because to get a left, first of all, like culturally in Japan, you know, there's no such thing as left-handed. It's like what's wrong with you? You like use your right hand.
+
+[2:18] You know what I mean? So like the left-handed one, and and Japanese knives typically are handed because they're not uh sharpened uh with uh symmetrical bevel the way uh Western knives are. But again, more on that later. Uh my question is how do I properly steal this? And uh how do I properly uh how do I properly sharpen it on a stone?
+
+[2:34] Uh any other general techniques, tips for using a sharpening stone would be great too, as I am new to self-sharpening uh and having nicer knives. Thank you, Matthew. Okay, look. Uh okay. Traditional Japanese knives, and first of all, if you want to we're we'll talk more about corn later, but anyone who comes into uh New York needs to stop by Corin K K-O-R-I-N, their knife uh place because it's fantastic.
+
+[3:02] And you can see firsthand uh a bunch of different styles of knives and really get a feel for kind of what the differences are. It's a fantastic place. Uh so it's it's in uh down near where the trade center used to be. Uh and so if you um a Japanese traditional knife is sharpened, literally sharpened basically on one side only, almost like a western chisel. Uh these knives are typically heavier and thicker on the spine, uh, and they have like a very uh very very they're very, very sharp because with the one angle, that one angle is not uh very big.
+
+[3:35] And so you have you have a very, very sharp but fairly fragile uh blade. I highly, I highly recommend those things. They're extremely easy to learn to sharpen because you basically all you have you have a very large bevel that you can see very easily. You sharpen that until a burr is raised raised up, right? Which means that you've taken all the way across.
+
+[3:54] You can feel it. You draw your thumb uh across the opposite side from the side you were sharpening. Uh, you draw it uh down over the edge, and you can feel a burr, a little curl being raised up around it, and you know, uh you don't want to do it too much because you're you know curling over the edge, but you feel a light burr, and you know that you've sharpened all the way down. So when you're sharpening a knife like this, or any knife really, you feel all the way, and you'll see a chef do this when they're when they're working, they'll take their thumb and they'll prick it over the blade all the way down. And what they're ensuring is that they're a burr has been raised all the way along the edge of that blade, and that you haven't sharpened too much in one place and too little in another.
+
+[4:28] And then the key to the the one I'm talking about, the Japanese style, or anything is basically recreating exactly the bevel that was put on there when they uh sharpened the knife. Now, the beauty of a traditional Japanese knife is you get that one bevel, which is fairly easy to see, and then you just turn the blade over and it's almost flat on that. In fact, the back side of the blade is concave. So you just put the you just lift the back spine ever so slightly off your stone and swipe it a couple of times to take the burr off, and you have a fantastically sharp knife, right? I love uh Japanese style knives.
+
+[5:00] I went to Corin. Unfortunately, their prices have gone um up because the yen is uh I guess doing well against the dollar. So a knife that I bought like you know, three, four years ago for around a hundred dollars is now like a hundred and eighty dollars or something like that. But um if you are going to use a knife every day in a work environment, uh the good old-fashioned carbon uh i.e. they will stain, they are not stainless.
+
+[5:22] Japanese traditional knives are fantastic to work with uh because you know that after that shift of working, you're just gonna uh you know take care of your knives and before or after sharpen them uh and it takes very little time to sharpen them, bring them back into edge, and they just they're fantastically fun to cut with and they're awesome. Uh unless someone borrows your uh Japanese vegetable knife and hacks a bone with it and uh shatters the blade, which is what happened to me. I want I didn't find who it was because they literally went into my knife kit at the school, took it out of my knife kit when I wasn't there, uh hacked it up, put it away wet, and I got a rusted broken knife, and it's incredibly depressing. But anyway, so they're extremely easy to sharpen, and I highly recommend them. Now, on the exact opposite end of the scale, is a traditional Western knife.
+
+[6:06] A traditional western knife is sharpened with an identical bevel on both sides. So no matter what the angle of the cutting edge is, right, which is determined by how you hold the blade against the stone as you're sharpening, no matter what it is, it's the same on both sides of the blade. Which means a Western knife, there's no such thing as a right-handed knife or a left-handed knife because it's symmetrical around it around its cutting axis. These are also fairly easy to sharpen because all you have to do is get that angle right. Okay.
+
+[6:35] Uh now, uh you have your Western, you have your Japanese. Now, the Japanese uh knife manufacturers invented a new style uh while ago. I don't know exactly when. It's basically a hybrid, it's a Japanese Western knife. And Japanese Western knives are insane in that they are not sharpened symmetrically necessarily.
+
+[6:55] The other thing is that there is no uh manufacture, there's no like uh cross-manufacture standard for what the asymmetrical bevel is. Uh and so you have to actually look at your knife. And what you typically do, if you're not uh good at seeing what the edge is, uh, you just take a uh a sharpie and you mark on the edge of the blade with a sharpie so you can see where the bevel is on both sides, and then you take your knife gently against a very, very fine stone, and you you try to get the angle right and you look at the sharpie and you see whether or not you've worn away the sharpie uh flat across the bevel of the knife. And if you have, you've gotten the same angle that the manufacturer made. Now, uh typical uh the also like the way that they specify uh angles is insane.
+
+[7:37] So when you talk about a bevel, you'll hear people say things like 7030 or 90 10. And what that means, and by the way, your knife probably isn't sharpened on one side only, it's probably like an like somewhere between a 90-10 and a 70-30. And what that means is is that 70% of the bevel on the knife is on one side versus the other, right? So if it was a zero and a hundred, then it would be a hundred percent flat blade, which basically none of those Western style Japanese knives are. Uh and then uh, you know, if 10% of the bevel is on one side and 90% on the other, it's a it's a 90-10, and you get the picture.
+
+[8:12] But but what that doesn't tell you is what the entire angle of the of the edge is, right? So if you were to sharpen a Western style knife and you were to have so that the bevel would be equal, that's what we call 50-50, right? Then you would say, okay, what's my total uh edge angle? And an older knife with kind of these, you know, uh less modern steel, the bigger the angle, right, the less fragile your blade is, but the duller it is. And so uh newer steels you can get a total angle all the way down to like 17 degrees.
+
+[8:46] Some people go down to like 15 degrees, it's cra and I my knives won't handle that. But like older style knives, I'm typically having it like 30 degrees, which is very wide for a modern standard. Not as uh easier to they don't break, but uh you know, not not nearly as sharp. So you have to specify what the total angle is on the on the blade and then whether or not that bevel is skewed uh one one way or the other. Personally, I find Japanese Western knives a pain in the butt to sharpen.
+
+[9:11] I don't like sharpening them. I've never been good at sharpening them. I'm very good at sharpening Western knives. Well, not very good. I'm good enough at sharpening western knives, and I'm I'm pretty you know uh proficient with Japanese uh knives, but I find the Japanese Westerns difficult.
+
+[9:24] Now, the advantage theoretically of the asymmetric grinding is uh that it cuts differently, and so it's designed to cut for a left-handed person or a right-handed person, and bear in mind that in in Japan, when you're cutting that way, you're making very uh specific slices. And so if you were cutting with your right hand, the slice is always gonna fall off on the right side. And so the bevel is designed to facilitate that kind of that kind of cutting. Uh your particular knife, uh, the Glysen knives are well known for what's called a grantin edge as well, which is a scallopy uh scallopy divots that are taken out of the blade. Those things have nothing to do with sharpness that uh reduces um stickiness.
+
+[9:59] Supposedly, and I've never used one, but uh, you know, I have a lot of friends that swear by it. Uh basically those little dimples prevent your food from sticking to the blade. Anyway, um as for sharpening, it's oh by the way, uh, if some of these knives can be re-ground to be 50-50 if you want to sharpen them like a traditional knife. Hold on a sec. Was it a collar or something like that?
+
+[10:18] Are you just pulling on me because I'm something's wrong with my sleeves? She thought my shirt was polyester, so she stopped me in the middle of the thing. It's not, it's cut. Anyway. Uh so uh so anyway, so you can re-grind if you if it turns out that you can't get used to sharpening an asymmetric bevel, you can have these knives re-ground.
+
+[10:36] Some knives take to that better than others, and there's professionals that'll do it for you. When you're in New York next, go to Corinne and or buy their knife sharpening video, it's insane. They're in they're insane. Uh now here's another thing. Don't believe the hype you hear on the internet about different kind of grits and different, you know, it's it's insane.
+
+[10:54] First of all, there's no uh international standard for what grits are. So people who are buying Japanese water stones have fantastically high grits, think that they're and a higher grit means a finer particle. They think that their uh sharpening stones are whooping butt on all of the American uh stones that we have. The fact of the matter is is that the Japanese grit definition is wildly different and not even applicable to American grit definitions. So you it's not a one-to-one correspondence.
+
+[11:19] So if you have a 3,000, uh if you have a 3,000 uh Japanese grit water stone, it uh is not mean that it's three times as sharp as an American stone rated at 1,000. All right. So just bear that in mind. Here's another thing. Japanese water stones are a pain in the butt.
+
+[11:33] Any real stone needs to be dressed a bunch to keep it flat. Uh they need to be watered or oiled when you're using them. I find them uh to be uh a pain in the butt. I don't I don't use them. I use DMT diamond stones, which uh and I use their duo sharp uh 10-inch bench uh hone, which is big.
+
+[11:50] You want a big, big stone to sharpen on because it means that you can get more of a swipe without having to lift your blade and reposition it, which means you can be more accurate and everything's faster, everything's more pleasant. The DMT stones are awesome because they're small, they're light, and they store uh for their size, and they store very easily. They last forever and they never need to be flattened again. Uh some people don't like it because they're purists, but uh everyone I've handed it to, including uh Nils, was like, you know, who's like, ah man, that that no one wants that. And he used it, he bought one.
+
+[12:21] Right. So you want to get the if you get it though, you want to get the fine and the extra fine, which is the green dot and the red dot, and you flip it over and you start on the coarser, which is the fine, and then you finish uh with a light, light couple of strokes on the on the extra fine side. Those things will last forever. It takes a little bit of a break in before they get as fine as they're gonna get because there's some errant particles of diamond that are bonded on the surface, and once those get knocked off, uh it's very consistent, very good. I I like it a lot, but you know, your Japanese uh knife buddies will will think that you're a Philistine, but crap on them because your knives are gonna be incredibly sharp.
+
+[12:56] Uh what do you think, Staz? It's a good job. Good. All right. Now, uh is there anything else I want to talk about in that or is that good?
+
+[13:04] Good. All right. All right. Go to Corin. I wish the prices hadn't gone up so much.
+
+[13:09] It's crazy. Uh two. Hi, Dave and Nastasha. Uh, first of all, a hardy Mazlotov on your new venture, which is the the bar. I hope to check it out next time I'm in town.
+
+[13:18] It's a bummer that I just missed the opening. Thank you so much for your advice on how to make a recent New York trip uh culinarily satisfying. By the way, this is from Brian who called us earlier. Um unfortunately, I didn't have as much time as I wished, but highlights included the crude and gelato at Edley. Have you had crude idly?
+
+[13:33] No. Really? Uh I can't I can't stand the lines at Ely. It's crazy. It's like a madhouse.
+
+[13:39] It's like I feel like uh like a like it's a madhouse. Yeah. They must make more money than God, those guys. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[13:43] Uh the great uh not that God makes money, he doesn't need money. Or she. Yeah. Uh the great spices at uh La Boîte Epice, uh coming in from the freezing cold to a deliciously warm noodles at Toto Raman, which I haven't been to yet. You've been there?
+
+[13:56] Yeah, it's in my neighborhood. Was it good? Mm-hmm. Yeah, enjoyed. Good.
+
+[13:59] Uh and uh the corn cookie from Milk Bar. Our buddies at Milk Bar. The corn cookie is in fact my favorite cookie there. Uh and a visit to JB Prince. In JB Prince, Chef Superstore.
+
+[14:10] I love that place. Uh which needed a tour guide to explain to me what all the cool crap was that was in there. It didn't say crap, it said something else, but I can't say it on the show. Uh today my question is about dry aging various dry aging various meats and fish. I've heard of dry edged beef, of course, but uh this post, which is referenced from uh Chuck Eats, you know, well known blog, uh, about a meal at San Francisco's uh Saison restaurant references aging fish and poultry.
+
+[14:33] I'm especially interested in aging fish. How can I do it safely? Can I age fill laser steaks or just the whole fish? The article referenced a seven day aging for fish killed via via Ikajime, more on that later, as well as an 80-day smoked tuna belly that had been aged and smoked periodically. It also mentions aging pigeons for 21 days, 43 days, 50 days, and 73 days.
+
+[14:52] It also mentions that they were aged with their viscera intact for a while first before dry aging, and what does that do? It also mentions that one of the pigeons had been salted to encourage fermentation. How can I guarantee that it won't spoil? I read in the latest Lucky Peach that McGee recommends dry aging take place in a dedicated fridge with the meat hung and using primal cuts. But how can I do this method at home with poultry and fish?
+
+[15:12] Okay. Uh thanks so much, Brian. Uh you ever watch Shogun when you were a kid? No. Funny.
+
+[15:18] So, you know, Western style uh, you know, w western style game birds typically are killed and then hung until what they're called high. And what that means is until they stink and they're about to fall apart. Uh and uh one of the uh funny scenes when you're like you know, a ten year old watching Shogun on the on the on the TV show is the Western guy, I guess Portuguese guy shows up, puts a pigeon up, hangs it, and uh the villagers think that uh this is spoiled, and so someone like basically, you know, literally takes it down and then uh commits sepaku for for the act of ruining the guest pigeon. And when I was young, I was like, man, that's crazy. And I'm sure that's just some sort of like weird, like uh it's gotta be some sort of weird racist thing.
+
+[16:00] Because no one's gonna commit seppiku over a pigeon. I just don't think it's gonna happen. I just don't buy it. Do you buy that? No.
+
+[16:06] I mean, some sort of punishment maybe for ruining the guy's pigeon, but sepiku? Really? Anyway. 70s racism, there's nothing better. Okay.
+
+[16:15] Um, but uh as far uh ikajime, so ikajime on fish, the technique with ikijime is you take a uh and large tuna, they always do it on because it's very expensive fish. I've said this a million times before, so I apologize. You can just glaze over for a minute while I talk about it. Is you destroy the brain uh and then you do a uh technique called uh shinkanuki, which means uh no spine, and you shove a needle uh down the spine of the fish, destroy the spinal cord. Uh what you're doing when you destroy the spinal cord is stopping any messages, electrical messages from getting to the muscles.
+
+[16:47] And what that's doing is preserving the ATP, the energy in the muscles. And what that's doing is allowing the muscles to go into rigor later and softer. The faster you deplete the ATP in a muscle, the faster and the harder it goes into rigor mortis. Fish flesh, in particular, because it's so delicate compared to meat fleshes, tends to rip itself apart uh during rigor if the rigor is too hard, and when it comes out of rigor, you're gonna get more weeping, more loss of the of uh juices, more gaping in the flesh, and just an overall not as good texture. The flavor's also affected.
+
+[17:19] I don't really know why uh from a from a scientific point of view, why the flavor would be affected, but in side by side taste tests, it is. So that's what the Ikajime is. Now, very widely held misconception that fish is uh better uh fresh. Uh fish is best when fish is best, not when it's necessarily the freshest. So when I go into a market and I see a bunch of you know fish and they're so psyched that they just got the fish off the boat, but the fish is in hard, hard rigor because of the way it was killed and died, and you can see it's curled up and in a hard, hard rigor.
+
+[17:44] I'm like, that fish is not the best it's gonna be. Sure, it's the freshest maybe, but uh the texture isn't necessarily the best it's gonna be. And if for any of you that ever cooked a fish that's in rigor mortise, uh it's quite hard and doesn't have the kind of tenderness that we expect with it with a fish. So almost all fish, like especially larger fishes, take a long time to come out of rigor. So things like salmon, things like tuna, you would never eat them hyper hyper fresh because they have to go into rigor and come out again and soften up and be excellent.
+
+[18:18] With Ikajima, I've run tests on smaller Ikajime, and they are clearly better the second day after they're killed, uh, and good the third day after they're killed. Larger fish like tuna, it's typical to go many days and salmon many days to get the optimal, optimal texture on it. Now, the bad news is with fish is that the minute you reach that optimal taste and texture, it goes rapidly downhill. So you have to know kind of exactly where to serve it. So the real high-end sushi joints uh know exactly how old each piece of fish is, and they're not serving you the freshest fish, they're serving you the fish that's at its peak of flavor.
+
+[18:51] And for each species of fish and for each way that it's killed, the time that it's best to eat it is different. And that is part of the great art and mist mystique and mystical power of the uh sushi chef is to know that kind of thing. Um as regards the longer age stuff, like a tuna belly, these are typically cured products that aren't going to go uh spoil, and they can last as long as you'd like, and there you're fighting against how dry is it gonna be and how much is the taste changing, and most of the taste changing is some of it's gonna be due to protein breakdown, obviously, but also fat breakdown, especially in something like tuna. Now, the reason that McGee recommends uh pull cuts or primal cuts is because A, they're gonna lose moisture faster, and for dry aging something like beef, you don't want it to get dried out like a jerky. You want the moisture to stay inside, you're gonna lose some, and that's gonna increase and concentrate the flavors, but you don't want to lose a lot.
+
+[19:39] And also most of the spoilage and funkiness is gonna be on the outside. So the larger the piece of meat, uh the bigger the bigger it's gonna be after you trim off whatever's on the outside, the less loss you're gonna get. And also remember, the inside of meat is sterile. There's not a lot of bacteria in there, and so it's not going to spoil. The outside's gonna get a little dry, therefore the bacteria aren't gonna grow too much on the outside of the of the thing.
+
+[20:02] It's not like a swamp, you know what I mean. You don't want to keep it too too humid. Uh, and then uh, and then after that, you can just age it, and you can age it for a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time. Now, on birds, if you keep the viscera, now I have uh shot a pheasant, and uh the the viscera got punctured by a baby. I didn't really know what the hell I was doing, you know, not B, whatever they call it, shot from a shotgun.
+
+[20:26] And uh we we hung that thing up for three days, and man, did the inside of that thing stink. I almost vomited when I gutted that thing and and plucked the feathers because the stench was just unfreaking real. Now it still tasted good because I soaked it in a salt solution afterwards, scrubbed out the inside, and it was okay. And I cut away the parts where the uh visceral juices had hit the meat where the uh gun had uh gone in. I looked at that uh Chuck Eats uh uh blog post, and all of those birds were smothered basically, so there was no chance for the viscera to leak into the cavity and cause a lot of awful bacterial spoilage.
+
+[21:01] The inside of the bird is sterile, except for the stuff that's on the inside of the alimentary canal, which is full of bacteria. So I don't know exactly why leave it in uh for a couple of days. Maybe it increases the funk, does a little bit of something, then cut it open. I would bet they probably, even though you say some of them are unsalted, I would bet they salt it a little bit to dry out the outside of the meat. And then the inside that hasn't been cut is relatively sterile and can be especially if there's air coming around it, getting around it, is not gonna really spoil, it's just gonna get funkier and funkier and funkier.
+
+[21:32] Uh that make any dang sense. Yeah. All right. So listen, we're gonna go to our first commercial break and we'll come back with more cooking issues. Soy el cantante.
+
+[22:13] Lo mejor del repertorio. Jack, what was that? Hector Laveau. Nice. And welcome back to Cookie.
+
+[22:52] What'd you say? Oh, the song was El Cantante. That just means the song, right? The singer. The singer.
+
+[22:57] Yeah. The singer. Alright. The singer sings the song. Yeah.
+
+[23:00] Is this a Barry Manalo reference or is this prior to Barry Manilow? I think it's prior. If we have another break, are you gonna do the I write I uh sing the song write the song, Trevor? Yeah, sure. All right.
+
+[23:09] Call in all your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Did I say that right? Anyway. Today's show is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook.
+
+[23:21] They're back. They like us. For a while they were like, eh man, not so much as cooking issues. I don't think so. Anyway.
+
+[23:25] Uh do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. Again, whatever. And most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[23:45] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking techniques. Modernist Pantry is once again offering free samples of meat glue, meat glue, meat glue.
+
+[24:06] The fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. Simply use the promo code CI70. It's the 70th cooking issue show. Yeah. Dang.
+
+[24:15] When placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Hey, Nastashi, we should call them. We're actually running low on SPL and I don't want to buy a whole 25-liter. Yeah.
+
+[24:26] Yeah. SPL, the magic enzyme. We use that dang thing in everything. Do you know that? Literally, our bar.
+
+[24:33] If you were to suddenly take away Pectin X SPL from us, like all like all of our recipes would would change. I'd have to change all of our recipes. It's true. It's in every damn thing. It's true.
+
+[24:43] It's like some, it's it's not a season, but like, you know, it's like we use it like it's salt. It's everything. Everywhere. Everything is SPL. Ultra SPL.
+
+[24:44] Ultra Ultra SPL. Okay. Uh go to a question here. Dear Nastasha and Dave. This is from Kevin in North Carolina.
+
+[24:59] I like North Carolina. I haven't been a long time. No, you don't. I do like North Carolina. What do you know about North Carolina?
+
+[25:04] I don't like I think you're No, okay. What she's referring to is Nastasha's parents live in uh outside of Los Angeles. Okay, folks. I think you told us. Well, I don't know.
+
+[25:14] But you you make a crack that I don't like North Carolina. Now I have to talk about and they say, okay, look, we don't want we want to escape the humidity. Not that I knew that was a problem in LA because I don't go to LA, but they're like, I want to escape the humidity. And so where do they get where do they buy a house? The outer banks of North Carolina, right?
+
+[25:30] Not even North Carolina properly. The outer banks of North Carolina. And I've only been there a couple times, but it's the most humid place on earth. The giant biting green flies need to learn to swim through the atmosphere because it's so humid. I looked up online as a joke, and one of the people lived down there said, I was walking down the street the other day, and I what do you what do you say?
+
+[25:49] I saw a squirrel chasing. A squirrel chasing a bass into a tree because it's so dang humid over there. And only only a relative of Nastasha would move to the outer banks of North Carolina to escape the humidity. So I love North Carolina, especially uh the eastern side of North Carolina and their barbecue, which is one of the finest uh American traditional products we have to offer. Thank you so much, Nastasha, for trying to make it seem like I don't like North Carolina.
+
+[26:19] Anyway, I recently made venison sausage, and at the time I did not have much pork fat to add to the lean venison. Only about 1.5 pounds per 10 pounds of final product. And as you know, Kevin, that's not enough. The sausage is okay, but would be better with more fat. Yes, it would.
+
+[26:35] I now have a plethora of high quality pork fat, having recently broken down half of an Osabah cross from a quality farm. The sausage was stuffed into collagen casings, smoking, uh smoked and frozen. What do you think about thawing, remixing the sausage uh with more fat and restuffing into casing? Would the texture suffer? Would you re-smoke it?
+
+[26:52] Uh love the show. Keep up the good work, Kevin. Okay. First of all, for those of you that uh aren't down with uh, you know, kind of your pig terminology, uh, an Osabah cross is a cross, usually with a Durak, which is a relatively like good tasting, fatty but commercial pig, with an Osabah pig. Osabah pigs come from uh Osaba Island, well, originally from Osaba Island off the coast of Georgia, where the theory is is that a herd of uh pigs was dropped off there by conquistador style folks, I guess in the 1500s, and uh just left there, and there was no uh in breed, there was no breeding, no selective breeding, then there was no uh influx of new genes, and so they developed their own race based on this kind of Iberian hog that it put there, but they became dwarfs.
+
+[27:35] So it's these tiny and apparently mean son of a bitch uh pigs that have the most incredibly large uh fat cap around the meat that I've ever seen because they they are designed to put on fat like lunatics because they the season, I guess that the feed there is so scarce, and that's why they became dwarfs. There's not a lot of feed there on the island, and so they're incredibly efficient at converting uh um food to fat uh and they're small. So they're very interesting. I first had an Awesaba ham, probably I don't know, like 2004, 2003 or something like that, uh, when they were first coming out. Uh and they're quite interesting, and the Osabah cross is kind of a good uh mix because they're a little bit bigger and um they're they're nice anyway.
+
+[28:19] Uh now on to your question. I'm I would be hesitant about thawing and re-mixing it uh and then restuffing it into a casing from a texture standpoint. I mean, you could try it. First of all, I mean if you have the venison, if you had a circulator, even with that low amount of fat, you could cook it at a low, low temp, uh, and you wouldn't dry it out, even though there's not a sufficient amount of fat there, and then you could split it and like drizzle some fat over it to get that kind of fatty, uncuous taste in. Uh, I mean, I I hesitate when you mix a sausage, obviously everyone knows this.
+
+[28:52] You put in the salt and the uh basically you you create the primary bind and it glues together. I don't know if you've already smoked it, like how cooked through it is with your smoke. Once it's cooked through, it's not gonna bind the same way again. So you could probably maybe add some of that product back into a back in other words. Let's say you were to add like a like a use half of that, grind it up and add it into a fresh sausage mix so you could get the bind proper again with the fat, maybe that would work.
+
+[29:19] But I don't think the texture is gonna be the same. And then if you add more, you could re-smoke it, but then you're gonna be double smoking a portion of it, so you'd have to work around it. I mean, I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't know if it can be done. Um I don't know.
+
+[29:32] Hey, that's not very helpful, but what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? It's all I know. Kevin, next time I'll try to be better. Right?
+
+[29:39] Anyway, so much. There's only so much I can do. There's only so much I know. Okay. Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Indy Jesus.
+
+[29:48] Wow. Carlos gets no love though, huh? Carlos, you get love from me, brother. There you go. Thank you.
+
+[29:53] So uh but Indie Jesus is in rare form today. He's wearing he's wearing the Jesus Christ Superstar bandana, which I appreciate. It's one of my favorite looks of his. Someday he's gonna come in here with a knife and cut all of our heads off. You know that?
+
+[30:07] Yeah. Not mine, I like him. I like him too. Wait, what? So do I.
+
+[30:11] So do I. What the hell are you talking about? First of all, Nastasha's the one that brings on this uh anyway, whatever. You know, this is like a typical Nastasia trick. This is if any of you guys ever end up working with Nastasha for whatever reason, just know that what she'll do is uh goad you into saying something when nobody's listening and then skewer you for it as though you're a bad human being.
+
+[30:30] That's like classic nostalgia trick. Anyway, uh I have a question that I think has uh got to be right up your alley. I've heard a lot of discussion lately about the huge of use of large spheres of ice in drinks. Some people have told me that uh that uh wait, some people told me things that demonstrate nothing other than that they couldn't pass high school physics. Boom.
+
+[30:48] Uh one person gave up and admitted he just thinks they look cool. Um now I'm intrigued enough to want to know more. So, Dave, as the uh modern modernist mixologist, you are I'm sure uh you you you are I'm sure uh as a modernist mixologist, you are. I'm sure you can save me a ton of time and experimentation. Please clear the air and let the world know what people are trying to achieve with spheres.
+
+[31:08] Is it faster cooling, slower cooling, less water in the drink for the same amount of cooling or something else? And does using spheres instead of other shapes actually accomplish the goal? Okay, thanks, D. Okay, listen. I have a very particular thing.
+
+[31:23] The spheres to me are simply a presentation aid. Nobody is shaking with uh spheres, right? They're they're straight up uh presentation. Uh now, and the way that you make those spheres, by the way, uh well, there's a couple ways. People hand hack the spheres, and those are the rough kind of ones, and then they'll polish them out, uh, you know, polish them out with something warm so that they look a little more spherical uh and then there's the aluminum block melted spheres where someone uh you where you buy a big block of aluminum with a sphere shape in it and the aluminum quickly melts the ice into a sphere so either of those two ways uh are are are possible and what they do is they look cool in the glass right now as regards to cooling the cooling power of ice is not dependent on the shape but the cooling rate is in the sense that um the more surface area you have of ice in contact with the liquid the faster the liquid is going to cool and the faster it's going to dilute there's no such thing as something that cools without diluting or dilutes without cooling when it comes to ice every bit of cooling that a block of ice does in a drink is done by melting and diluting and every bit of diluting that a block of ice does in a drink is uh done by chilling the drink down or by losing to the atmosphere but over the short you know short point it's basically all involved in the drink so a a large uh block of ice spherical or square or whatever right uh will typically because it has uh most of its volume on the inside and less surface area for the amount of ice will chill slower will not be as cold and will be less diluted in your drink if you were to put finely shaved ice in it would have an immense surface area it would chill very quickly but be very diluted, right?
+
+[33:16] And there's no other way around that. You can't, you can't you can't get around that. For a given volume of ice, a sphere is gonna have, I believe, less surface area than a I'd have to do the math. But I believe a sphere will have less surface area than a square for a given volume of ice, and therefore will have uh probably less chilling power and therefore probably less dilution. But the real fact of the matter is is that usually those spheres are quite wet when they're put in, and so there's a lot of dilution anyway.
+
+[33:44] And I would say those effects are minimal. I would say that it is strictly a presentation tool. Now, uh I don't know anyone that shakes a drink with spherical ice, because that would be crazy. But uh, you know, there is a possibility that the texture of a uh shaken drink can be affected by the size and configuration of the ice in the shaker. Uh but that's an entirely different different kind of kind of uh a question.
+
+[34:08] So I don't know whether I've cleared have I cleared the air on that? Yeah. It's pretty clear. Yeah. Made any sense at all?
+
+[34:13] All right. Okay. Uh we have a comment in from Adam Walker in Bowmanville, Ontario. Uh Thanks for taking the time to answer my glucose syrup question last week. I've done some reading, and it is way more complicated than just having enough dextrose to make it sweet and maltodextrin to make it viscous.
+
+[34:32] Even just having a mix of multodextras seems important for having a proper mix of multixtrin seems important for inhibiting crystallization in some applications. Maybe I could adapt some recipes, but it's not going to be identical. I'll just ask modernist pantry to stock it. I'd rather buy from somebody that supports the show. Yeah.
+
+[34:48] Yeah. Uh I did find a great book on the topic uh called The Handbook of Starch Hydrolysis Products and Their Derivatives, 1995. And you can look at a preview on it in Google Books, and in fact, it is a pretty good book. I was reading some of it this morning, which is part of the reason that I came in. I almost was late again because I was reading the handbook of starch hydrolysis products.
+
+[35:08] Uh but uh Adam found a couple things that you uh readers might listeners might find interesting. Uh one, glucose cereals were invented because Britain got uh got their sugar supply cut off during the Napoleonic Wars. Uh yeah, I mean like it's it's interesting. That they they started producing it because of that pretty cool. A lot of uh cool uh food things were because of wars, you know, like canning, like Napoleon needed to feed his armies, and so Appair, who was working on canning the first really accurate, a good canning method was uh basically a result of the Napoleonic Wars as well.
+
+[35:36] So there you have it. Uh and two, uh he says cyclodextrins sound cool. Uh cyclodextrins, by the way, are uh chains of glucose that are formed into a ring, uh, and they have some cool, cool properties. They are uh grass, which means generally regarded as safe by the government, and have been used to hold on to flavor and industrial food. Wikipedia tells me they are an ingredient in phibreze.
+
+[35:57] I love Febreze. Like when you have a stink, like when you have stinky gym clothes, like and they get all packed in it, it's like I I've I like I used to soak all that crap in Febreze. Febreze. My wife hates the smell of Febreze, some Febreze, but I just like the word. Anyway, um uh Wikipedia tells me their ingredient in Febreze that traps the stink.
+
+[36:15] That's a good traps the stink. Uh, has anybody found good culinary uses for cyclodextrins other than uh infrees, which you're not using in culinary things? Oh, and to answer the question we were talking about before, uh on their honeymoon, they got married in October but didn't want to plan the honeymoon on top of planning the wedding. Is that what you said? You said it was you said it could be money.
+
+[36:32] You said it was one of those two. Whatever. You just change you'll change your story. Whatever it is, just change your story. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[36:39] And then she'll say, I have an uncanny feeling. And uh congratulations on opening the bars. Now on cyclodextrins, the interesting thing about cyclodextrin is the inside of the cyclodextrin, it's not hydrophobic, but it's less hydrophilic than the outside. But the cyclodextrin itself is gonna keep its structure and be very soluble in water. So it's used to complex somewhat hydrophobic ingredients uh into water, and that's why it's used as a carrier in uh flavors in in in industrial applications.
+
+[37:04] I haven't heard of anyone using it in food, so we'll see. Would we have time to take a break? Yeah. Alright, we're gonna go to another break, come back with cooking your shoes. My dream last night was about Alibaba with the forty feet.
+
+[37:31] Tom, Tom about her son. He was there with me. I rode through a valley with a princess by my side. The Duke and the Duchess was there to meet to me with a smile. Alice was staring wander, staring far away.
+
+[37:54] The tree blind mass was there with me to tell the teddy bear to me. The teddy bear came smiling here. With a big smile. The little baby has lost the sheep. So that song was actually emailed in from a listener.
+
+[38:13] Oh wow. Just now? Uh a few days ago, I think. Yeah. Yeah, from Andy Melka.
+
+[38:18] That song is John Holt. It's called Alibaba. I like that. I like Alibaba. My son, my younger son, Dax, is obsessed with uh Alibaba due to the uh 30s or 40s Popeye cartoon where Bruto Bluto or Brutus, whatever he was at that time, plays Alibaba.
+
+[38:34] Remember that? Loves that stuff. Maybe we can get that song. It's called I'm a Terrible Guy. We'll get that for next week.
+
+[38:39] Got it. Good. It's good business. Uh so, by the way, I forgot to mention this when I was talking about Saison, the restaurant that uh the Chuck Eats post with the aging and all that. Uh, because I've never been there.
+
+[38:51] You know, I haven't been to San Francisco in a while. I was talking to Daniel Patterson. Daniel Patterson came into the bar last night. We were talking about the state of eating in San Francisco, and he says that the state of eating, and now remember, by and large, most people on earth think that it wasn't broken to begin with because people love eating in San Francisco, right? But then you have uh kind of like the school of thought, which Dave Chang famously was almost banned from the city for saying that the whole dang city is just uh uh, you know, a uh a really nice fig on a plate, basically.
+
+[39:18] They just cut off he doesn't talk like this. They just cut up a thing and put it on a plate. That's not how Dave Chang talks. But the attitude is right, right? Anyway, so um so anywho, so uh Patterson was telling me who his restaurant Quaz, like one of my favorite restaurants in San Francisco.
+
+[39:34] I love his cooking, it's great stuff. Uh and it's funny if you ask him, if you anyway, he's he's a he's an interesting guy. He writes sometimes for the New York Times. Uh and uh friend of the show. I was gonna ask him to get on the show this morning, but his flight out was at seven in the morning, so he didn't he said next time he's in the city, he'll come do the show.
+
+[39:51] Uh he says the state of eating is uh is getting better and better every day. Anyway, Cezanne is the restaurant uh that had all that uh you know the crazy aged pigeons and all that. But here is the uh when I was looking it up on the internet, I had, and I hate Yelp. By the way, I made the mistake of looking at our Yelp reviews, and I wanted to I want like here's the thing. I I'm over it now.
+
+[40:12] I'm I'm not never gonna look at it again. Really? I mean, it's just you know, Yelp is is crazy because but by the way, I learned a lot from the Yelp reviews to try and like, you know, I did fix some stuff based on what I saw in the Yelp reviews. So, so you know, that's there. But the review's there forever.
+
+[40:28] That it just the whole thing is is it's crazy. It drives you crazy. It's nutty. Anyway, I I can't deal with it. But I looked on uh some sort of Yelp equivalent or Google and I saw for Saison, the restaurant, the very best restaurant review I've ever seen in my life.
+
+[40:42] You ready for it? It was it was two sentences. Very romantic, pricey, but will get you laid. I was like, man, that's everything you need to know. Everything you need to know about a restaurant.
+
+[40:58] Right? Awesome. Anyway. Uh yeah. So uh for those uh who this is the first time you you're listening, uh uh longtime listener Ken Ingber is having an ongoing feud with uh Nastasha Lopez on her use of uh the internet and various texting and technological things while we're trying to do a radio show.
+
+[41:22] Now, uh I will have all everyone who cares about this know that she in fact was not doing that today. No. She was paying attention today. Yes. Yes.
+
+[41:30] Yeah, nice. Anyway, so Ken, this is to Nest this is from Ken to Nastasha. Sorry I upset you. Although on balance, I think you will have to agree that it made for some funny radio. I was delighted that you appreciate the irony of my complaining about your reading my email on air.
+
+[41:43] Uh while I was actually like you multitasking while listening. I appreciate that Dave took my side, but Jack really made an excellent point. If the vast majority of listeners yesterday were me, then you're promptly responding to my email instead of paying attention to the show would turn out to be exactly the customer service Dave Dave says all of your listeners deserve. So boom, crap on me, huh? Yeah.
+
+[42:02] Crap on me. What do you think, Jack? Crap on me? Crap on me. Uh yeah.
+
+[42:10] Anyway. More from Ken Ingbert, because King Ken Ingwer has decided that we're gonna try this Breville coffee maker. And they're coming tonight. And they're coming tonight to the bar to uh test it out and we'll see, we'll see how the thing is. I'm excited.
+
+[42:22] And as as I've said before on the show, Breville, huge fans of uh of the Dave Chang. They love Dave Chang, so hopefully they'll uh then love me as well, right? Mm-hmm. Yes? Yes?
+
+[42:32] Okay. Uh now, last thing up, uh talk about the blog for a second. Yes, I realize I haven't done it uh since October. I also realize I haven't written uh the my serious seeds column. I owe that from just before Halloween.
+
+[42:45] Serious Eats column. Not serious, Jesus Christ. Eater. Eater eater column. Nastasha's giving me the the uh the D bag face now.
+
+[42:52] Nastasha has a couple faces. She has the vegan face, what was the other one? I don't remember. And the D-bag face. She's giving me the D-bag face.
+
+[42:59] Anyway, uh I have I owe Craiggy on Maine some answers, and they're it's a great restaurant in Boston, and they're good people, so I'm gonna answer that. Uh but I've decided what my coming out of semi-retirement post is gonna be. What? I'm gonna do a post on uh technique we are working on at the bar called uh nitro muddling, and it's a cool technique, and so here it goes. So uh everybody who uses liquid nitrogen knows that you can put an herb in a blender with liquid nitrogen, blend it to a fine powder, and get these amazing kind of fresh powdered herbs, right?
+
+[43:31] Uh, but uh we're now doing that in the bar, and here's what we do we take a regular uh, you know, uh regular shaking tin for uh you know cocktail tin, and we put uh nine Thai basil leaves into it, pour the liquid nitrogen on top. They get crunchy really quick at Lee. And then we uh you know pour off the extra liquid nitrogen, muddle it just like it was regular mint. I have to work on that a little bit because the noise of muddling frozen stainless steel is insane. Maybe we should try it in glass.
+
+[43:59] Maybe it'll work in glass without cracking. We'll find out. Uh you muddle it, then you add the spirit, and it's very important, unlike normal bartending practices to add the spirit first. And the reason is because uh the alcohol and the spirit will prevent the thawing herbs from getting that swampy browned out taste because it inhibits the enzymes that are in them. And uh those things get that taste relatively quickly because they're so finely broken up, right?
+
+[44:22] So you pour the uh the um the spirit in, you know, while it's still frozen, swirl it, thaw it out. We add uh so we're doing Thai basil rum, rum rum rum, and then we're doing well, we're using a white rum, Florida Cagna, actually. And then uh we add simple syrup, lime, swirl it around, shake it like a normal cocktail, put it through a uh fine mesh strainer, and only the green particles of the Thai basil that are crushed fine enough to make it through finely, enough to make it through that uh that strainer, get into your drink, and you have a bright green, incredibly fresh Thai basil daiquiri. Nitro muddling cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:17] You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted, and I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from roughly 12 to 1245 every Tuesday in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Calling all of your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[0:40] That's 718497-2128. Jack, I hear we already have a caller. Is this true? Yes. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[0:58] Alright, before you start, uh for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, spherification is the technique where you make uh little balls out of things using uh hydrocolloid. The most famous one is uh sodium alginate. Uh the problem with that is that the balls turn solid over time and they're unpleasant if they're solid because the alginate steals all the flavor. So there's a technique called reverse verification where you basically form just a thin layer of uh alginate gel around a liquid and it stays liquid in the center forever, but it's a more difficult technique. All right, so shoot, what's the problem?
+
+[1:30] Okay, well, I guess uh first of all, uh it's working with the distilled water for the for the bath. Um, I guess my uh sodium citrate, maybe is what seemed to be settling out of it. Um I didn't notice it until after I had blended it and was trying to pour it into the bath. I didn't think there was enough left in the bottom. I went ahead and proceeded with it anyway.
+
+[1:52] Uh so it may have been a uh a weak uh sodium bath, I guess using both the sodium alginate and sodium citrate in the in the bath. Um how sensitive is that to um uh right so again so people don't know what we're talking about. In your when you're doing a reverse purification, your flavor has a calcium source in it, and the bath that you drop that flavor into has alginate and then usually something to stabilize the alginate in it. And uh that alginate then forms an instant kind of envelope around your flavor. Now, before we go any further, sodium citrate should not settle out.
+
+[2:32] Are you you're using you said distilled water? Uh correct, distilled water and uh and a stick blender. Right. So the sodium citrate shouldn't uh come out of it and you shouldn't have a problem with the alginate in the bath. Um the uh I mean I I don't use really citr citrate does is sodium citrate acts in two ways.
+
+[2:52] It's a it's a pH buffer, right? Because uh the alginate doesn't want the pH to go too low. If it does, it'll start gelling and turning goopy and ropey on you. And it's a l it acts somewhat as a sequestrant, which means it it it binds uh excess calcium in there, but a lot of that sequestering activity is really due to more of its buffering capacity. If you want a really good sequestrant, you want to move to sodium uh hexametaphosphate shrimp, which is available, I believe, uh through uh our one of our sponsors, uh Modern Pantry.
+
+[3:23] But what kind of failure are you getting out of it? Are you getting is it is the is the bath turning ropey and nasty on you? Or what what what's the failure mode? It it was uh the the bath was pretty uh it was pretty thick but clear. Right.
+
+[3:38] Okay. And what is the failure mode? What what's what's exactly is happening? Um I I guess when uh when I'm dropping the the base into it um I'm actually getting different results. I tried with three different things in the same bath.
+
+[3:54] I was using a a rum uh using calcium lactate and a little bit of Xanthem gum and it was dropping into it almost immediately dispersing. On the surface? Using uh very near the surface, yeah. Right, okay. Okay, next.
+
+[4:11] I'm wondering whether your problem is you're not getting I'm wondering whether your problem is you're not getting a good drop out of it. Okay one of the problems with reverse spherification is you need to have a fairly thin alginate base in order to get the stuff to drop in properly and if it if it if it's if the if it's too viscous right you'll just get like a pancake effect on the surface where it'll maybe it'll hollow out a little bit but you'll it'll just spread wide and then it'll form like kind of wisps of gel within it. Was it gelling it just was dispersing? No it was it was gelling and and the when you when you're describing wisps of gel that's almost exactly what the what the rum base was doing. Right.
+
+[4:47] I think your main problem there is you maybe need to go thicker on the on the rum or add some heft to the because also remember alcohol is fairly light compared to uh so you add some heft to it I mean with either sugar or glucose syrup or something like that to add some heft so that it wants to go down add some viscosity to it like even over and above the Xanthan gum another problem with Xanthan did you do did you get all of the air out of the rum before you dropped it in or was it still cloudy? Um it was the rum was just a little bit cloudy. I let it sit for for several hours, but it was still uh a little bit cloudy. Do you have access to a vacuum machine? Uh no, I don't.
+
+[5:26] Right. So you're only really way to do it is to wait for it to kind of settle out. But if you don't want to add xanthan, you could add b other b you you you're gonna need to add some xanthan, but you could add some other bodying agents like glucose syrup or like uh corn syrup, something to give it some extra density so it wants to sit, and you're gonna need to make sure that the stuff you're dropping in doesn't have air bubbles because the air bubbles are just gonna sit on the surface and prevent a good drop from forming. What percentage algorithm and what brand are you using? Um I I don't know what the brand was.
+
+[5:56] It came from one of your sponsors when you mentioned a moment ago. Right. Um and I'm I was using uh what is it uh two and a half grams to uh to five hundred grams of water. Uh two to five is four to one. So so point four percent?
+
+[6:16] Yeah, sounds four grams in a liter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds right. Yeah, that's low. Yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[6:25] That's really low. I mean in other words, um, so uh I mean i it everything depends on the alginate. And I've never used modernist pantry's alginate, so I don't know kind of uh what what's going on with it, but you know, um alginates come in a variety of viscosities from a low viscosity algorithm to a high viscosity algorithm. The one I use, I use a medium and a high viscosity algorithm from FMC biopolymer, is the one that I typically use when I'm doing this. And with those, you want to with for the high viscosity one, I usually want to be around eight grams in a liter in order to get like a good gel to form.
+
+[7:00] And uh the other one maybe even uh you could go a little lower with the high viscosity one, like you know, seven grams uh per liter. Uh but yeah, like down at point four, it's gonna be hard to form a quick thing, and that might also be causing your dispersal problems. Uh if you and by the way, alginate, especially if you have all the stuff in the bath, you can heat it to get rid of the bubbles. And in fact, when you heat it, you're going to be uh decreasing its viscosity. So if you're having viscosity issues, you can do reverse verification into hot alginate bath.
+
+[7:31] It's not gonna hurt anything. You don't want it to be so hot that it's gonna boil the alcohol out of your rum, right? But assuming that that's not a problem, uh, you can go that way. Let me give you another thing you can do, depending on what size of balls you want to make. You can d you can if you have a sil pat, you can just take and this way you don't need to thicken it at all.
+
+[7:49] You can just take drops of uh and put drops onto a silpat and then uh let them freeze up. If they're small enough drops, that you know they'll pancake out, but you'll still be able to get a good uh good drop on it. And then just put those drops in one by one, they'll thaw almost instantly, especially if you're using a hot alginate bath, and that'll let you get it underneath. But I I would try to get your alginate bath higher than uh four grams per liter. I would get it up to like uh uh you want it as low as you can, obviously, but you you might want to try like seven, eight grams per liter.
+
+[8:19] Uh try it hot, make sure you get all the air out of it and try to put a little more body into the um into your into your uh rum. How how much calcium lactate per liter were you adding? You were using calcium lactate or calcium lactate gluconate? Uh I was using calcium lactate. Okay.
+
+[8:36] How much? And I was at I was at 30 grams per liter. Thirty? Correct. Uh uh says three percent.
+
+[8:45] That's that's high. Is that what they is that what they told you on the website to add? Uh correct. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[8:51] Could you taste it? I mean, that's enough calcium, in other words. That should work. I mean Yeah, I could I I I could taste it a little bit. Right.
+
+[8:59] Uh in general, I mean, that's high. You could get the calcium lactate gluconate. It's gonna make a softer gel. But the first thing I would do is get it gelling properly. Once it's gelling properly, then start dialing the calcium back.
+
+[9:13] And so what I would do then is I would make your rum mixture first, right? And then I would hold some back with no calcium in it at all, right? And then and then take your one uh and add the calcium to it, and then as an experiment, just keep adding the uncalcium stuff back to it until it doesn't gel right anymore. And then you'll you'll get a feeling for exactly how much calcium is going to be required in that application. Okay.
+
+[9:40] That sounds sounds like a good idea. That's what it'll do. Another problem with reverse furification is that if the two if the balls um touch each other underneath the alginate bath, they'll glue each other, they'll glue themselves together because of uh that in other words the alginate will start bonding and then they'll be hard to break apart. So you want to make sure when you take them out to to very quickly put them into uh basically like a pure water solution to get them separated and to rinse the extra alginate off, and then to store them in a back basic the best thing to do is to have enough of your uh flavor base left to store the balls in the flavor base. If you store the balls in the flavor base, which has some calcium in it, they'll last forever or until they spoil, right?
+
+[10:21] Uh if you store them in water, then uh all of the very quickly all of the flavor and color will be leached out of them. Uh and it's somewhere in between is to store it in a sh basically a sugar and alcohol solution of the same relative sweetness and same relative alcohol level as your balls, and that that's kind of the intermediate. So when I the the thing that I use reverse furification for most is uh maple syrup balls that I put inside of pancakes, and when I do that, I basically store them in the maple syrup. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[10:51] Yeah, good, good. All right. So give that a shot. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.
+
+[10:58] Awesome show. Listen to you guys all the time, having for a while. Thanks so much. We appreciate it. Yep.
+
+[11:03] All right. So how you doing, Nastasha? Good. How are you? All right.
+
+[11:07] All right. What's up? Nothing, just looking at cues. Oh, we got cues? What's going on?
+
+[11:11] Yeah, I think it's fine. All right. All right. So uh anything new happening in the world of uh cooking issues slash Nastasha Lopez the past uh week? No, Dave.
+
+[11:20] Nothing? Nothing. Actually, we've been working, we've been with you like 24 seconds. Yeah, we've been at the bar, like basically nothing new can happen except we've been at the bar, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[11:29] I mean, that's basically the only new things that that happen. I tried yesterday, uh so we've had some calls from a show that wants wants us on, maybe in California, and we've been doing some crazy tests for that. So we've been yesterday I had to make a hurricane. Familiar with the hurricane? It's a it's like you know, nowadays a god awful rum drink.
+
+[11:48] It was invented by a guy, Pat O'Brien, apparently in New Orleans, who was given a whole bunch of rum. Uh right after prohibition, he opened up and basically he couldn't buy the good liquors from the distributor unless he also took rum, which at the time nobody really wanted. And so he had to find something to do with all of that rum, and so he mixed like a couple kinds of rum and passion fruit uh syrup and pomegranate syrup uh and you know, some other stuff. And there there's the hurricane. It was served in giant glasses, basically to get you effed up, which is how it works now in New Orleans anyway, but the quality is just even lower than than back then.
+
+[12:22] Then New Orleans, you know, is like the home of the crappy fake daiquiri shop. In fact, last time I was in New Orleans for Tales of the Cocktail, uh, they one of the uh bartenders who was working at a dinner that I was at, I forget who it was, and uh she had um ordered a daiquiri machine to come, and the fella who showed up to tweak out the daiquiri machine uh had no idea what an actual daiquiri was, and we s made and served him an actual dacquari. He's like, No, no, that's not it, that's not a dacquari. Like a daiquiri is basically Kool-Aid and like rum in one of these frozen machines. Horrible, horrible, horrible stuff.
+
+[12:55] The current hurricane is made with a powdered mix that might as well be Kool-Aid, uh, but just doesn't taste quite as good as Kool-Aid does, if that if that's humanly possible. Uh so it's just uh just a horrible, horrible thing. Anyway, so we tried to make uh uh what we thought was a good hurricane. Uh so I basically uh took uh pomegranate, smacked out the seeds, uh muddled them because I didn't want to blend them to get the bitterness in from the little pips on the seeds, added them to passion fruit pre-ray, hit it with SPL, uh, and spun it out in a centrifuge and got an amazing bright red, awesome flavored kind of passion fruit slash uh pomegranate syrup that you know is tart enough to use in place of lime juice in a daiquiri style recipe. Made it, actually tasted quite good.
+
+[13:40] Problem was that the show wanted me to do something carbonated, so I carbonated it and it tasted awful, right? Pretty much? You agree? Mm hmm. Yeah.
+
+[13:48] I don't really like most carbonated rum drinks except for like dark and stormies and things like that, because of the ginger really helps it out. But like I I think I said this before on the show, like carbonated rum often ends up tasting like Cisco, if you remember Cisco, which was a carbonated twenty percent alcohol beverage from the from the 80s or 90s. It was just dreadful, dreadful, dreadful stuff. But uh then, uh, at the behest of some of the the bartenders sitting, I think Tristan and Nick at uh Booker over Booker and Dax Our Bar uh was like, let's make a ginnicane. And we made a ginicane, we made like a gin hurricane, and that was delicious.
+
+[14:20] Delicious, delicious. Anyway, so that's the kind of crap we're working on nowadays. Okay. So uh go call in more questions, by the way. 27184972128.
+
+[14:29] That's 7184972128. We have a comment in on last week's show from Paul, uh, who in uh it's about the remember we had someone who wanted to know how to tell whether if their mom was allergic to a particular kind of fish because their mom was allergic to fish scales. And we had uh, or no, sorry, not fish scales, two, uh fish with scales. And we had a discussion that basically the scale is just a marker of where the fish is in the evolutionary chain, and so they need to stay away from that uh particular a whole group of fish. Uh Paul uh enjoyed our explanation of it, but had an interesting way to very simply find out whether or not it's got scales.
+
+[15:04] And that is is it kosher? Paul says, check the internet to see if a particular fish is kosher, i.e. if it's permission permissible under Jewish dietary laws. There are always tons of QA's on the internet about what is and isn't kosher. Kosher fish must have scales as well as fins.
+
+[15:19] Please note that the inverse is not necessarily true. It could have scales, but not be kosher, but this might definitely be an easy first test for her. Kosher equals definitely has scales, so your mom definitely can't have it. And not kosher uh equals might not have scales. So in other words, if it is kosher, your mom can't have it.
+
+[15:37] But just because it's not kosher doesn't mean your mom can't have it. Make sense? Mm-hmm. Very good. Thanks, Paul.
+
+[15:41] That's a good idea. Uh and then, you know, beyond that, go and look up uh where it is in the evolutionary chain uh and see, you know, where it where it fits. Is it a you know Teleost, etc., etc.? Okay. Uh two from Matthew.
+
+[15:56] And this question goes out to the uh good people in the engineering room, Jack and Carlos. Uh, I'm a big fan of your show and spend plenty of time listening to the archives. It always helps my dishwashing/slash house cleaning time go down a little smoother. Can you believe someone's actually doing work while they're listening? It's crazy.
+
+[16:11] Right? Yeah, it's nice. I like that. Uh anyway. Why, Jack, do you cut off the last five minutes or so from any of the shows on the archives?
+
+[16:20] It's important that we hear every last word that Nastasha and I have to say. Thanks, Matthew. Well, I don't know if it's important to hear every last word we have to say, but uh, but uh Jack, not to put you on the spot yet, or is Jack back there or Carlos? What's the explanation for that? What's going on?
+
+[16:33] They're stunned. Wait, Jack's coming. We'll look into it. Uh be there, but Matthew, we'll take care of it. Okay, so listen, with that, let's go to our first commercial break.
+
+[16:45] Calling all of your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128 cooking issues. You can rely on the old man's money. You can rely on the old man's money. It's a bitch, girl, but it's gone too far.
+
+[17:01] Cause you know it don't matter anyway. Send money, money won't get you too far, get you too far. Go to know, but don't you know? That is wrong. To take what is given you.
+
+[17:25] So far go on your own. But you could get alone. You can try to miss wrong, but you'll never be strong. Right, you're a rich, girl. And you're going to fall.
+
+[17:41] You can rely on the old man't matter anyway. You can rely on the old money. I take full responsibility for show cutouts. Sorry. Sorry, guys.
+
+[17:53] No problem. But I'll tell you something. I hate it when when she lets it go too far because she knows it doesn't freaking matter because she can rely on the old man's money. It's so disappointing, isn't it? So disappointing.
+
+[18:05] You know, you should stand on your own. Don't rely on the old man's money. Anyway. Apparently we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[18:14] Hi. Uh I have a question. I I have uh I'm looking to do the uh low times or cookies. And I have uh from beer rowing, I have my uh my hot weather tank is controlled by a PID. Right.
+
+[18:26] And I was wondering if there was any issues with using such a large volume of water because it would probably be about ten gallons. Uh well, how many watts is your heater? Uh I've got a I I've actually had two. I've got one the 5500 watt and one's a 4500 watt, and then I've got a pump that I can use to circulate back into it. All right, yeah.
+
+[18:47] Alright, with that kind of wattage, uh so I mean I'm gonna do a quick calculation here. A thousand watts, about twenty-eight liters, assume it's fairly linear and yeah, you should be fine. As long as your pump gets good uh movement through it, and as long as your PID is stabilizing within like a couple of tenths of a degree up or down, uh, which is it? Is it stabilizing properly? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:11] Yeah, then you shouldn't have any problem. Uh, you know, just you just want to make sure that you don't have any huge dead spots in the circulation, and that when you put your packages in that they um that they that you know that there's a lot of that there's water circulating around them. As long as you have water circulating on all sides, you should be okay. Uh i i the other thing I'd be c cautious of on certain items if you're gonna do eggs is if you're circulating that much water, you don't want it to be too too violent, or the stuff's gonna get knocked about in there. Uh or or you could have a situation where if you don't have the stuff properly contained, uh the the circulation is just gonna push it all to one corner of the bath, all of your bags will pile up, and then the the bags in the center are gonna take a long time to come up to temperature, which could be problematic in certain recipes.
+
+[19:57] Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But your your wattage should be more than enough. Um I've never had the uh pleasure of fooling around with a circulator uh that's uh five kilowatts, but sounds like it should be a lot of fun.
+
+[20:11] What are you cooking? You know, uh I'm just kind of glad to do everything. Uh probably you know, I I I have chicken, so probably a lot of eggs. Probably what? You I'm having a little bit of a bad connection.
+
+[20:21] What'd she say? Egg? What do you say, rather? Eggs? Yeah, probably a lot of eggs, yeah.
+
+[20:25] A lot of eggs for a lot of chicken for the most part. All right, so if you're uh if you yeah, so again, just make sure that the eggs don't get knocked around uh too much. And the other issue obviously is you're using quite a lot of power. Uh you you know, um so if you had the uh if you have the PID controller and whatnot, you might want to make a secondary bath that's smaller, like you know, two kilowatts and like twenty-eight liters or something like that, which would be is twice what was normally be used in twenty-eight liters to get up to temperature really, really fast. But just you don't want to be in a situation where you're pulling out those big guns all the time.
+
+[21:00] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And and I assume you're running that guy off two twenty. So if you're gonna run that guy what if you run that thing off of one twenty instead, right, uh you'll get uh about a quarter of the power, so that'll get it down to normal range.
+
+[21:17] So if you just make an alternate plug situation and run it off of one twenty instead of two twenty, assuming the amperage works out okay, uh, you should then ha be able to use it as a lower wattage uh item. It might be a problem with your pump, you might need to get a secondary pump, but you shouldn't need to get a second heater element. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, that that that that helps a lot.
+
+[21:37] Um now if I was looking at uh if you have me very interested in this rotary evaporator and I have money to burn. Ha good nice. That's a good problem. How how do you how do you clean them? I mean, I obviously have to buy you, so how would I I don't know where it'll been.
+
+[21:53] How do you how do you clean the glassware? Well, that's a good question. So uh I mean th there's two kinds of problems when you buy laboratory gear, and the one problem is uh kind of inorganic poisons, like straight up old school poisons, uh and also organic based poisons, and the other are kind of biohazards. So most likely you're not gonna have a biohazard in your rotov app, although it's po it's entirely possible. I'm pretty sure that the original one I bought off of eBay had carbon tetrachloride in it, which is nasty stuff.
+
+[22:25] Uh so I just um I w I bought uh you know a a basically a glass cleaner. I think uh think of the brand was Alcanox, and I just cleaned the ever loving hell out of it. Uh if you have access, uh I also in case there was a biological agent in it, I also bleached the hell out of it. You know what I mean? Basically soaked in bleach, ultrasonic cleaners, huge bunch of changes of water, bunch of bunch of bunch of changes of water, and detergents that'll attack both polar and nonpolar things, because the odds are there's a bunch of nonpolar stuff there too, which might be, you know, vile, vile stuff.
+
+[22:59] Um so you know, just do that again and again. Also note that if you're buying a standard roto vap with a condenser, re regular coil condenser, that one's going to be harder to clean because it's impossible to physically attack all the nooks and crannies on that. You can't get your fist into it. Whereas if you're getting what the heck was that? It sounds like someone just died on a roof.
+
+[23:19] Um if you if you get a cold finger condenser, you can disassemble it basically and get your hands into it and totally clean it out. And if you're really lucky, you can get a cold finger condenser that also has a coiled insert sleeve, and then you get the best of all worlds. You can use it as a cold finger condenser, you can use it as a regular coil condenser, and you can clean it. But it's very difficult to clean out the inside of the condenser, and it just takes a lot of time and flushes of detergent in water. Um could maybe like a per carbonate cleaner.
+
+[23:50] Like I have uh powdered brewery wash. Yeah. 50 pounds of it. Would that would that work for that? I mean, I'd look and see what whether or not uh what they say on that is uh how it works on um you know, uh chemical deposits that aren't uh, you know, like basically you you know, you'll be able to get rid of most of the polar stuff using normal detergents and most of the nonpolar stuff, frankly.
+
+[24:11] But I would just uh I haven't looked at it in a long time because it's been a couple of been like five years since I bought a rotovap on eBay. Uh and so I would just look up, for instance, like what the procedures are for cleaning out, like pick a couple of vicious nonpolar solvents like carbon tetrachloride, and just find out what the kind of uh what the kind of decontamination procedure is for it. But yeah, you know, uh maybe the brewery one would work. I mean, I uh like I say, I bought Alcanox just because that's what they use in labs. It's not that expensive, but I'm sure you you can get a hold of it, you know what I mean?
+
+[24:42] Yeah. But I would specifically look up, I would choose a couple of nasty solvents, uh, polar and and and non polar, and just check out the basic decontamination procedures for them. Okay. Um, and that cold finger condenser you're talking about. Is that like a Libig convention for uh for a still?
+
+[25:00] No, no, the cold the cold finger one is just a basically it's a cone shaped sleeve inside inside of the round condenser, and uh you fill it with uh in the lab, you would typically use dry ice uh acetone. I use either dry ice ethanol or um or liquid nitrogen. Uh I actually almost always use liquid nitrogen because it's actually easier for me to get than dry ice for storage reasons. Um but um the problem with a cold finger condenser if you're not using something super cold like dry ice and ethanol dry sacetone, is uh it has a very low surface area uh compared to a um because it's not indented like like you know, some of the condensers you're dealing with. So uh so it's got a fairly low surface area compared to a coil condenser.
+
+[25:48] I see. Yeah. Okay. Alright, is that helpful? It's very helpful.
+
+[25:53] Thank you. All right, and uh, you know, write us back and tell us uh what happened with your big mega circulator. We'll do. All right, thanks a lot. Thank you.
+
+[26:03] All right, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients? But hate, hate, hate to overspend for pounds of supplies with only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks.
+
+[26:24] Saving you time, money, and storage space. I'm gonna edit it myself to have either enthusiasts or whatever. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world.
+
+[26:41] Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries several types of modified starches for thickening, including Ultratex 3, Ultratex 8, and Ultrasperse 3. Fans of cooking issues at place an order of $25 or more before next week's show will get a free package of Ultratex 3 to play with. Simply use the promo code CI71 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[27:08] Alright, listen. Listen. For some reason, a lot of chefs started using uh Ultratex um, you know, years ago. And what what Ultratex is, is it's a great product made by National Starch, and it's it's a part of a group of things that are basically they're pre-cooked starch. They're they're prehydrated, pre-cooked.
+
+[27:27] So you don't need to heat those starches, Ultratex, for instance, to get them to have their thickening capacity like you would with a normal starch, right? So that's great. That's fantastical. Uh the problem with Ultra Texas is because it's been uh prehydrated, pre-cooked, if you add it to liquids and you don't have like a high shear mixture, mixer, or you can't shear it in quite a bit, or you don't mix it into butter like in a bermini or any one of those things, mix it with sugar, anything, corn syrup, whatever, it tends to uh to glob up to turn into kind of globules, uh, you know, pearl up the same way as if you added starch to uh hot gravy. It works exactly the same as if you add starch to hot gravy.
+
+[28:06] So you need to really uh hit it with a blender or something like that to get it to disperse properly. And that's because uh when you add starch to gravy, typically what you'll do is you'll add starch to a cold liquid first, form a slurry, right? So that all the little starch particles get separated, and then you add it to a liquid, and then uh everything's kosher. You heat it up and it's good and it hydrates and all that stuff. Ultra spurse, right?
+
+[28:29] Not tex, ultra spurse is a uh an agglomerated uh pre-cooked, you know, prehydrated starch. And what that is is it looks like little kind of uh it looks kind of grainy when you look at it, instead of being a fine powder, it looks kind of grainy, and it's designed to not gl not kind of stick together into balls, and you can stir that one into things to thicken it up, and you don't need a lot of high shear mixing. Now, the reason that industrially ultra spurse isn't used as much as ultra texts is ultra spurse is uh a lot more expensive than ultra texts but in most home and like high-end chef kind of things, the cost uh isn't that much greater and is not that much of a of a concern because you're not using that much of it. And so I would always recommend, if you can, to go with ultra spurse instead of ultra texts all from a good folks at National Starch. All right.
+
+[29:24] That make any damn sense? Okay. So Chris, maybe next week give away the ultra spurse, the ultra spurse. What about commercial break? Already?
+
+[29:32] It's been 15 minutes. Really? Mm-hmm. All right, we'll go to our second commercial break. Calling all your questions to 718497-2128, 718497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:49] Well I want, you to go back to hot to handle. Like a flame, the birds are candle. The candle feels the flame. What I got full stock. A full screen with a scatter.
+
+[30:05] And you pull them all together. And I can display. Oh yeah, well by you. Well, well, well, you make a my dreams of true. On a night ball, we become a screamer.
+
+[30:41] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Hollow Notes Fest today, huh? Is that Nastasha or is that Carlos? That's Carlos Carlos.
+
+[30:48] Good call on Hollands Fest. You know, Nastasha and I have kind of like a running thing that we like. Dave completely bastardizes Holland Oaks. Yeah, well I'll rock out to it, but they they like, you know, so like if you've seen what's that show, like The Wedding Singer, where the guy sings with all the curses. I tend to sing songs with like many, many curses interspersed in them.
+
+[31:05] And so like what we feel is like, you know, uh you know how when you go to a concert, there's that guy who stands in the background screaming the song. Right? Yeah. So like we imagine that I'm like that guy screaming, but instead of giving like the rock and roll fingers, like you know, like the rock and roll fingers, I've just got my I'm just like flipping them the bird. But I'm in like the front row screaming along, like jamming out like to rich girl giving giving like hollow notes to the bird, and they're like, what the hell is this guy doing?
+
+[31:31] What's wrong with this guy? You see how long it takes before I get ejected from the concert? You know, those guys in the front row don't play. They pay so much for those tickets, especially on a reunion tour. They're not playing around with some joker, like flipping off the the the band and screaming curses.
+
+[31:46] Freaking rich girl. Anyway, okay. By the way, I know that was a scary sound we heard before, but it seems like Indy Jesus is okay. Oh man. That's good business.
+
+[32:00] We have checked the building. Andy Jesus is okay. Okay. That's good stuff. Jesus Christ Superstar is coming out at the end of next month on Broadway again, Dave.
+
+[32:07] Yeah, but look, okay, look. Jesus Christ Superstar, uh, aside from the fact that, you know, you kind of, as much as I love uh Andrew Lloyd Weber, and it's an Andrew Lloyd Weber thing, right? As much as I love him, I have to from a more kind of rational standpoint hate it. Well, because like, you know, I mean, all the people who are seriously into musicals are like, oh my god, Andrew Lloyd Webber, right? Even but I like that stuff.
+
+[32:28] You do. I do, I love that stuff. Jesus Christ Superstar, especially, but the problem is is that in my head, I have, you know, the original kind of voice of Judas is in my head. And if I go and hear somebody else, and the original guy is dead, by the way, so it's not like they're gonna bring that guy back. Uh and uh, you know, if I hear somebody else playing Judas, I'll just be like, oh my god, what is that?
+
+[32:50] It's the same way that you know that they redid uh Heat Miser, Snow Miser. Or Charlie Brown's voice. They redid Charlie Brown's voice? Horrible, horrible, horrible, awful, horrible. Uh, you know, it's like some things, you know, whatever.
+
+[33:04] Anyway. You're gonna make me go see it, aren't you? You should take your sons. Well, what what the heck do they want to see Jesus Christ Superstar for? They don't like it's me.
+
+[33:11] I like musicals. My son Booker would be so bored. He would be the screaming the entire time, when's it over? When's it over? And like they'd be saying, you know, what's the buzz?
+
+[33:21] And he'd be asking me when the buzz is gonna be over. I think I can't, you know, I can't. I can't. Anyway. Uh, question from Okay, I can't see who the question's from.
+
+[33:31] Oh, from Derek. Uh, hi again. I want to make my own sherry vinegar. Is it possible to take a red wine vinegar mother and put it in sherry and wind up with sherry vinegar? Are there any other methods?
+
+[33:40] Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome, Derek. We will try. We will try to start being awesome. Anyway. Uh okay, so here's the trick.
+
+[33:48] Uh when you're making um the answer is yes. It it's gonna work. Uh, but uh when you're making vinegar uh from wine, you're typically using a lower uh alcohol wine, right? So sherry, which you know is fortified, is uh is coming in at a much higher ABV than what it than is good for uh the vinegar. So you're gonna want to dilute to uh and I looked at a couple different sources, but between kind of seven and nine percent alcohol, and nine percent is pretty high.
+
+[34:17] Like you you might want to start down lower at like seven percent uh alcohol, okay? Uh so uh so you're gonna basically figure out what the alcohol content of your sherry is and then dilute it down with uh with whatever, but get the alcohol percentage down. If the alcohol is too high, you'll inhibit the acetobacter, and that's gonna be uh it's gonna be a problem, okay? Uh another thing that uh I've read, I don't know whether it's true or not, but is that if a wine is very highly sulfured, has a lot of sulfur dioxide in it, uh that can also be a problem uh for um for the acetobacter, but uh other than that, it it should basically be uh no problem. Now uh I looked up uh Sun Sunset magazine has uh a big how-to on this, including the vinegar things and remember, I don't know whether Sunset's any good anymore, but back in the day in the early 70s, Sunset magazine, which is from California, had like some kind of butt-kicking books on like how to get a really butt-kicking garden, how to make bon's eyes, how to bake bread.
+
+[35:17] I mean, Sunset Magazine. Desert E. It's California, not California. I mean, I don't know, Arizona, do they read it in Arizona? It was like, yeah, like You're from LA.
+
+[35:29] I'm sure you had Sunset Magazine coming out of your ears in the morning. No, I think it's more of like a desert Arizona, New Mexico, California. Hey, look, you know why it's called Sunset? Right. Because the sun sets on the freaking West Coast, right?
+
+[35:40] It's a West Coast thing, Southern West Coast. Right? But anyway, the books used to kick butt. That's all I'm saying. Is that Sunset Books?
+
+[35:47] You wouldn't think it. It seems like very consumer, but their books I used to enjoy them as I was growing up. I haven't read them in a long time. But if you if you look it up, uh, and you know who they asked as their consultant for it? Paula Wolfert.
+
+[35:58] Yeah, who Nastasha and I met when she was writing a like some sort of a clay pot cookbook. Is that true or false? Yeah, she had just finished it. Her house was freaking full of clay pots. I'm talking like she had a greater volume of clay pots than I have an air volume in my apartment, because her house is quite large compared to my apartment.
+
+[36:17] Anyway, um Paula recommends that you start small. In other words, if you get your mother, you add a little bit of the wine to start with. You gotta make sure that air can get to it because forming um forming acetic acid, it's an aerobic activity. There's air. So in fact, when you're doing a fast procedure, uh so the the the old school way is uh I don't know whether it's called the Orleans or the Oleon, because I've never heard anyone pronounce it, but that's the old school way of making vinegar where basically you take a cask, you drill holes in it, put a screen over it so bugs can't get in, you let air get in.
+
+[36:48] And it's the air that allows the acetic uh acid, uh the acetobacter, the acetic acid bacteria, to grow, uh, and therefore turn your uh turn your wine or turn whatever your cider into vinegar. If there's no air, they won't grow. If after they're done, you continue to allow air in, then the acetic acid will be lost, it'll oxidize and go out. So you have to strike a balance there. If you want to make it quickly, then what you have to do is increase the surface area that the bacteria can grow on.
+
+[37:16] And so you can do things like mix wood chips in with the with the uh with the vinegar with the base or whatever, and then have the mother on top. You don't want to swamp out the mother because you have to get the population of bacteria relatively high. So, what most people do to maintain their mother is remove like three-quarters of your vinegar and then put without disturbing it, put uh you know the rest back in in terms of fresh liquid, and then you can keep it going. Eventually, your vinegar mother will probably fall to the bottom. Uh you scoop it out.
+
+[37:42] Hopefully, a new one will form because you'll have a colony in there. Uh, we spoke about vinegar mother, what it is a while ago, but it's mainly cellulose, bacterial cellulose. So it floats on top, and eventually maybe it will fall to the bottom. Um another thing, and uh, you know, I'm not an expert by any means in in vinegar, but um after you make it, you're probably gonna want to age it to kind of mellow it out a little bit. Some people age it just on its own, some people age it in wooden barrels, uh which are getting increasingly difficult to get.
+
+[38:09] The small wooden barrels are getting increasingly difficult to get. When you are aging it, uh people tend to pasteurize it to stop further bacterial change, for instance, that might turn the vinegar uh, you know, to actually consume some of the acid in the vinegar and ruin it. Uh so you can either exclude air or pasteurize it, or exclude air and pasteurize it and age it to get a variety of different flavors. How's that? Good.
+
+[38:30] Make sense? Semi-sense? Partial sense. Okay. Uh from Matthew.
+
+[38:35] Hi, Nastasha and Dave. I hope you're doing well, and a big congratulations on the opening of Booker and Dax. Thank you. I think it's a pretty good bar. I mean, like, you know, we're still working.
+
+[38:44] It's gonna get better and better every day. But I think I'm I think I'm proud of what we're doing. What about you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm proud of what we're doing.
+
+[38:51] Okay. I was recently given, which doesn't mean that we're nowhere near where we want to be, but I'm proud of what we're doing. Anyway, uh, I was recently given a Cuisinart ice cream machine, the kind where you pre-freeze the canister. I have made some excellent ice cream and with the help of some pastry chef friends, have learned to add some tweaks to my recipes that keep the ice cream from losing its smooth texture in the freezer and stay a little bit more stable at room temperature. And the two things uh that uh Matthew's adding are glucose syrup and gelatin.
+
+[39:18] Uh is there a simple formula for replacing sugar with glucose that could be applied to any ice cream recipe. My primary goal is to give ice cream a better texture post-freezer storage. Thanks, Matthew. Uh okay. So the simple there's no there's no simple anything.
+
+[39:37] You know what I mean? Uh, which is which is, you know, always always the problem. And uh I forgot to look up before I came in what the um what the solids uh ratio, what the solids content of glucose syrup is, but I think it hovers around 80%. I think it's in there. And you have to figure out what the DE, the dextrose equivalent of the glucose syrup is to figure out how how sweet it is.
+
+[39:59] But the book that I recommend, and most of it's online on Google Books, is called Glucose Syrups Technology and Applications. And there's a section on ice creams in there uh that talks about it. But basically what the glucose syrup, the glucose syrup is a c accomplishing uh a couple of things. It has a certain amount of sweetness to it, right? Uh not a lot, but a certain amount.
+
+[40:21] It depresses the freezing point of the uh of the ice cream base somewhat, right? But also it uh drastically increases the viscosity of the ice cream base. And what that's doing is it's gonna give you a kind of a denser, better mouthfeel and also prevent uh inhibit crystallization. The gelatin will also help with uh crystallization, but uh, you know, and anything you add, any hydrocolloid you add is going to uh help. Anything that increases the viscosity is gonna help prevent crystallization from happening uh once it's in your freezer afterwards.
+
+[40:54] So uh basically what you wanna do when you swap it out, let's assume that you don't want to um let's assume that you don't want to change the sweetness of your of your recipe. Uh so you have to look at what the relative sweetness of the glucose syrup is versus sugar. So your relative sweetness of uh of a of like a 42 DE glucose syrup is half, it's half as sweet as sugar. We're using low DE glucoserus when I usually do it, like a 28, and 28 is like 0.4 of the relative sweetness of it, and that's on a dry dry weight basis, right? But the freezing depression, uh so let's take glucose uh 28 DE glucose syrup.
+
+[41:37] It's a little under half the sweetness of uh of sucrose, right? But it has uh only half of the freezing point depression. So you need to add twice the like uh once you take into account the water that's in it, you're gonna you're gonna remove, let's say, uh you know, 200 grams of sugar, you're gonna have to add 400 grams of solids from glucose 28 DE to have the same sweetness, but you'll have a lot more solids, so it'll be a lot denser. Uh so this table is available on the Google Books, and you can get a sense of the relative freezing point depression and the relative sweetness for various different uh different sweeteners. So, so let's say you didn't want to add like that.
+
+[42:21] If you want to reduce the sweetness of something, right, but not really reduce uh the you know, not really change the freezing point depression or change the actual visc viscosity of it much, you could add glucose syrup, and then you could depress the freezing point further by adding small amounts of alcohol. And there's ratios in this table in this book that you can look at to really kind of get a better idea of what you're doing. But what you whenever you're swapping out sugar, you're removing body, you're changing the freezing point depression, and you're changing the sweetness. And all of those things need to be accounted for uh in an ice cream to balance out. So you you know, if you don't want to change anyone drastically uh or or there's gonna be problems.
+
+[43:00] Just uh what's cool about this book, the glucose syrup technology and applications in the ice cream section is that rather than go into really kind of technical uh explanations of trying to calculate things, they say, hey, look, uh calculate everything relative to sucrose. So the sweetness relative to sucrose, table sugar, and the freezing point depression relative to sucrose, and then just get into your head that ice cream should have a s uh like a a sucrose relative uh sweetness and relative freezing point depression, because sucrose we're taking it as one as unity, of 13 to 18. So something with uh with a soup with with basically 13, so 13% sugar in it is going to be hard, right? And uns not that sweet. And something with 18% is going to be relatively softer because it's gonna be have more of freezing point depression and relatively sweeter, right?
+
+[43:52] And so by by calculating the relative freezing point depression and relative sweetness to sucrose, you can play around with recipes fairly easily and try to get uh something that works for you. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh I I am being told.
+
+[44:07] Do I have any more questions or have I answered them all? I've answered all the online questions. I'm being told that I am out of time. So this has been Cooking Issues. Thank you.
+
+[44:17] And come again next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information.
+
+[44:56] Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria every Tuesday at an undetermined time. Supposed to be 12.
+
+[0:32] Happy Valentine's Day, people. This is the Valentine's Day uh issue of uh Cooking Issues. Call in all your questions live too. 7184972128. That's 718497-2128 here again with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and uh the engineering crew near the room.
+
+[0:47] How are you doing, Stas? Good. So the reason I'm late today, today literally most of the time my fault. Most of the time, my fault. Check this one out.
+
+[0:53] I'm on I'm on the uh subway because I still haven't fixed my bike yet, mainly because I'm lazy. And uh I run, run, because I see see the train coming, right? The uh the uh J train, M train, whatever it is. I run like a lunatic, run, so I'm like I have a huge headache now, like almost like I'm gonna like get an aneurysm or something like that. Jump into the car, door shuts, and then promptly sits on the platform for 20 minutes.
+
+[1:18] They finally come on, open the door, and they say, Hey, uh, yeah, there's some lunatic. This is Valentine's Day in New York for you people. There's some lunatic walking across the tracks on the Williamsburg Bridge, like stumbling back and forth, apparently, I don't know, some star-crossed idiot. Like walking back and forth across the tracks on the Williamsburg Bridge. So there's no train traffic on the Williamsburg Bridge.
+
+[1:40] And they don't open the doors to let us out. They trap us like sardines in a box. Thank God my son wasn't there because that's his worst nightmare on earth. So I had to run out and get a taxi so that I could talk to you fine folks today. Anyhow, happy Valentine's Day.
+
+[1:53] Stas, what are you gonna do for Valentine's Day? I'm babysitting your kids. Yeah, because I have to go work at Booker and Dax, the bar. And first of all, it's only till 10, and Nastasha's night doesn't even begin until 11. I should be getting the pity party because my wife is away on Thanksgiving.
+
+[2:13] I won't even I mean it's Thanksgiving. On Valentine's Day, I won't even see my wife on Valentine's Day. I don't get a pity party for that. And check this out, people. Today, Valentine's Day is the 20th anniversary of me starting to go out with my wife.
+
+[2:27] Twenty I started my first day with my wife was on Valentine's Day 20 years ago today. And uh and I'm not even gonna see her today. All right. There you go. See, I believe I deserved a pity party for that one.
+
+[2:41] But uh yeah, I used to hate Valentine's Day. I hated Valentine's Day so much. Like my the first 20 years of my life, Valentine's Day, worst day in the world. But uh, you know, ever since then, ever since I started going out with my wife, it's been good day. Except today when she's not here.
+
+[2:55] Rah. Anyway. Okay. Oh, by the way, I realized I don't remember whether it was last week or the week before uh someone asked a question on uh Japanese Western style knives. Uh, because they they had a I forget which which brand it was, um uh I don't know, I forget.
+
+[3:09] But uh Japanese Western knives which are sharpened uh differentially on the two sides, like 3070 and whatnot. And the question they actually asked me, I realized this morning as I was showering, I was like, they actually asked me how do you use a steel with with a knife like that? And I realized I didn't actually answer that question. I didn't I talked a million for a million years about sharpening and different knife styles and everything, but never about how to actually uh use a steel. You can't.
+
+[3:31] Don't use a steel on a knife like that because it's almost impossible for you to accurately steal it uh with the two different uh edge angles. What I would recommend though is something that back when I used to have sharp knives in my house, and that means before I had a babysitter who would use my knives, uh, I don't know, I don't know what the hell she does with them, juggle. I don't know what the hell she does. But they're I can't keep them sharp anymore, so I stopped trying. So my knives are now.
+
+[3:54] I went from having like very, very sharp knives to having very, very dull knives. Um there's a cute kid, by the way, looking in the window of our radio station, pulling her hat on, staring at Nastasha. I think in horror. I think she's staring at Nastash Nastasha in horror. Anyway, um so what I recommend uh to keep knives like that super sharp is it is the same thing that barbers use for uh you know generations for razors, which is get yourself a leather belt, like a leather strop, wide one, hang it up uh somewhere in your kitchen, and uh strop your knife, and that really helps to bring uh like a light bit of an edge back.
+
+[4:28] You can either strop just with an oiled leather uh band, which is what I did, or use a super, super, super mild abrasive. But the reason it's okay is because you're going in the opposite direction than you would do when you're stealing, and so you're not gonna dull down uh your knife. And it helps to knock a little bit of the like minor burrs that happen as you're cutting. So I would go invest in a strop. I love it.
+
+[4:49] And plus, strops look badass when you're stropping a knife, it looks kind of badass. You ever stropped a knife, Ted? No. No? You don't like strops?
+
+[4:56] I wasn't really listening. Good, good. Well, it's good to see you're doing your job here as always. Okay. Uh hi, hi Dave and Nastasha.
+
+[5:04] A quick sausage question. I found some information on the cooking issues blog about cooking sausages directly in a liquid uh in a liquid with a circulator. One thing the blog didn't mention is how long it takes to get an average size sausage to temperature in a 60 degrees Celsius bath. Additionally, what is the maximum amount of time the sausages should be held at this temperature before the quality goes south? Thanks, Matthew.
+
+[5:24] Okay. Well, that's an interesting question. Uh, I should think that the that the interior of the sausage, I mean, any reasonable size sausage, it's going to be done probably in 40, 45 minutes, something like that. If you think about it relative to an egg. If you actually want to measure it, you can use uh one of the programs like Sous V dashboard that you can is available on uh on your iTunes or whatnot.
+
+[5:46] Uh and and you could check exactly, but within 45 minutes or so, uh the average size thick you know sausage should be done. Uh now I would hold it for longer than that because the the deal is is typically you have some tougher cuts of meat in a sausage and you're tenderizing it via um via grinding. That's one of the reasons why you grind it, right? Well, if you hold it longer and longer, the meat gets more and more tender. So depending on what cuts of meat are in it, uh, you could hold it for quite a long time at those temperatures, quite a long time.
+
+[6:15] Now, I've never held a sausage longer than oh six hours or so. But uh they were good at the end of uh six hours. The trick, remember, when you're when you're cooking sausage in a liquid like that, is to uh have the liquid be so flavorful that you're not leaching uh flavor out constantly over time. I would not cook them for any longer than necessary in an excess of flavorless liquid. Or you could put them in a Ziploc bag with a small amount of oil and cook them forever or bait not forever, but you know, for a long time, hours.
+
+[6:47] Uh, and they're just gonna probably get better, probably not get worse, depending on what kind of kind of cut of meat uh that you put into it. Um anyway, does that help? Mm-hmm. Anyway, it's a good technique. I do that technique all the time.
+
+[6:58] Everyone's like, I I think I told us on I said this on the show before, but I bought some really cruddy, not cruddy, but like you know, cheap, cheap sausage and peep and cooked it that way, 60 degrees, 60 or 62, depends. It's gonna be a little pink at the center at 60, which some people freak out about, so you might want to do 62, depending on what kind of meat is in the sausage. And depending on whether the sausage is already cured. If the sausage is cure a cured kind of sausage, if there's any sort of nitrites in it, it's gonna be pink anyway, and then you can cook it to whatever temperature you want, in which case I would do 60. If not, uh, you might want to do 62.
+
+[7:26] Depends on on uh how people feel. Uh, but uh anyway, I bought this cheap chorizo, and there were people like this is the most delicious sausage in the whole world. I was like, it's a circulator, it's not me. Anyway, uh I had something else with that, but I forget what it is. Oh, yeah.
+
+[7:42] Anyway, uh my my brain's a little fried because uh I'm saying, like, we we here at Cooking Issues haven't been burning uh the candle at both ends recently. We've just been taking the candle, throwing it in the oven and melting that sucker down. You know what I mean? It's like years ago, it's hilarious. Like uh, you know, I heard Drew Drew Neprunt, you know, the famous restaurant tour, he was giving a talk somewhere, I forget where I was, I was attending the talk, and he said this.
+
+[8:08] He said, uh, people always ask me, how do you balance, you know, like a family life and a restaurant life? And he said, you don't. Ha. And you were like, I can do it. Well, you know, yeah, whatever.
+
+[8:25] Anyway, funny. Okay. So uh here's the thing. Like, uh working at the bar until all hours of night, right? And then putting your kids on the bus in the morning, is not comp not like that, no, no work.
+
+[8:43] No work, right? So my brain therefore, it's not working. So if I'm a little frazzled today, folks, it's just because I'm stupid. Okay. Uh, dear Dave and Nastasha.
+
+[8:52] Uh a friend of mine recently found out she has celiac disease and therefore cannot have any more gluten. Uh I was attempting to create for her some of the homemade goodness that the rest of us get to enjoy, uh i.e. uh gluten, delicious, delicious gluten. But when looking on the internet, I found many conflicting suggestions for the use of Xanthan and Gwar gum, as well as suggested non-wheat flour blends tapioca, potato, millet, etc., without rhyme or reason as to the ratios used. Do you have any experience or advice for working with gluten free breads, pizzas, or pastas?
+
+[9:21] What changes in properties can I expect from different brands of flour? Uh what is uh working in xanthan gum that is intended to replace the gluten structure? Thanks for any help. Alex from Florida. All right, well, first of all, uh I don't have any actual experience uh cooking gluten free because I haven't had any uh I haven't had any need really to do it, you know, for my own family, and uh I cook occasionally, I'll cook some gluten free stuff if I have someone specifically coming over to my house, but I've never done a thorough, thorough researching of it.
+
+[9:51] Um, but I do have some advice. The the reason look, the the here's the reason it it it it's tough to, and that there's so many recipes out there is that wheat flour, right, is fantastic stuff. And uh there's and all of the recipes that you know we've been developing since time immemorial are based on the properties of wheat flour. Uh so you know, one of the flow pop properties of wheat flour is its flavor, right? Which we have all come to appreciate.
+
+[10:23] Uh, and the other one, uh the other other ones are its gluten, which provides structure. Uh there's a bunch of properties. And the issue with making a uh a replacement for wheat flour is that no one grain flour or no one flour uh has all of the properties of uh of wheat. So if you're trying to actually mimic a wheat flour product in terms of its texture, right, you're gonna have to use it uh a blend of uh of flowers, right? So that said, and I'll get to the the guar and the xanth in a second.
+
+[10:54] That said, uh, you know, a lot of people base the initial uh part of their recipe on rice flour, right? Because it's fairly bland, fairly neutral, right? And you know, it's not that expensive, it's easy to obtain, right? But if you use it uh exclusively, then it tends to make kind of dense leaden uh gritty things. So they add other uh you know starches and flours to it, like tapioca, for instance, uh, which is going to add some stretch because it's really kind of weird, gluey stuff, uh add some lightness, or potato, which uh helps absorb uh which helps keep things moist and also make things lighter.
+
+[11:35] So it's a balancing act between choosing uh those different um those different things. Now, when you go to add things like bean flours, which some people do, uh, that's gonna also add its own kind of holding capabilities, ability to hold bubbles and trap bubbles, which is what one of the great things about wheat flour is its ability, and this is what the gluten helps here is the ability to hold bubbles and form a nice structure when things are baking. Um so each flour has its different thing, but if you're gonna add bean flour, the problem is if it's a very uh light flavored thing, you start tasting the bean flour in it and it's and it's kind of gross. So if you need something sturdier and the flavor can be covered up, then you can use things like that. And if they can't, you have to use something more neutral.
+
+[12:15] In addition, uh a way to hold bubbles is to make things thicker. So people add starches that help thickening. So they're adding things like arrowroot starch, even though it's quite expensive, right? Uh a good thing I saw on the uh on the interwebs about this is uh from uh and and this what I like about it is just her opinion on on what the different flowers do. You go to gluten free mommy, and she has a list of all the different base flours and kind of what her uh opinion on kind of what they what they contribute or don't attribu uh contribute to particular uh mixes, including sorghum flour, white flour, uh white rice flour, and etc.
+
+[12:51] etc. etc. I mean the one problem I have with all these websites actually is that they look if you have an issue, like you can't have gluten, then focus on that. But everyone also throws in a bunch of nutritional mumbo jumbo about what's good for you and what's not good for you. I hate that.
+
+[13:05] I hate thinking, and my kids even do this. I hate it so much. Is my kids are like, is this good for you? Is that good for you? I'm like, it's all either good or not good for you, depending on the balance of things you eat in your diet.
+
+[13:16] There's no there are very few things that are bad for you. And there are very few things that are good for you. You know what I mean? Like if you ate only carrots, you would turn orange. You know, I told my kid that, and then he won't eat carrots, freaked out about carrots.
+
+[13:30] He thinks he's gonna turn orange. I'm like, no, no, you have to eat like many, many sacks of carrots. But the point is, variety is the spice of life, my friends. And you want to eat a lot of different things. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:40] Anyway, all right. So uh another issue on that. Now, so that that's just the different ratios of flour and what the rhyme or reason is is you want to get a balance that mimics the texture of wheat flour without having an uh uh an overly assertive taste. Usually the tastes are beanie, they call them beanie or kind of like you know, weird kind of like dusty, like you know, like like chickpea flour or like uh what's the black eye pea flour, things like that. Okay.
+
+[14:08] Now, as for Xanthan gum and guar gum, uh Xanthan gum is used to replace the protein because like protein, Xanthan gum can form a gel and really hold a light gel, right? And really hold air bubbles well. So it's used directly as a gluten replacer. Guar gum is cheaper than Xanthan gum, right? And the guar gum that you typically buy in the store has an awful, awful kind of beanie taste.
+
+[14:37] So I hate using it in things like ice cream. There's really nice, nice guar gum called flavor-free guar from TIC gums that is very neutral in taste. Uh, but guar isn't really as good a replacer for gluten as Xanthan, because Xanthan has the ability to form a loose gel structure that holds bubbles during the baking process, whereas guar is simply a thickener. So I wouldn't replace uh like I wouldn't say that guar on its own is going to do your job for you. But guarantection with Xanthan, guar can be used to replace some of the Xanthan and make the Xanthan a little bit cheaper.
+
+[15:15] Uh now uh another thing you can use if you're not like multiply going to make your life difficult is eggs. The protein in eggs is fantastic uh and and easy easy to use. And so that the protein in egg, egg white, and you know, I guess also an egg yolk, can help replace some of the gluten because it holds structure as well. Uh so you know, eggs, xanthan, uh guar, I mean, whatever. The then I came across a website that's actually pretty interesting, and apparently it's won a bunch of awards.
+
+[15:49] Uh, gluten-free girl and the uh chef. And here's something that they said that's uh very interesting. Uh by the way, I have some issues with the site. For instance, the I don't know whether it's the uh gluten-free girl or the chef who's who's writing this, uh, because I don't know that much about the website, but you know, they stopped using Xanthan and Guar. They use a lot, they the recipe I soften and they use a lot of eggs because it's their opinion that they're that they're having a negative reaction to the Xanthan and to the guar.
+
+[16:15] It could be that they're having a negative reaction to the guar. Guar is uh, you know, you don't really digest guar. And so if you eat eight boatloads of guar, it's like you know, it's like eating uh uh a serving of coal and blow, you know what I mean? And you're gonna, you know, you're gonna have some fiber issues. You know, it's like eating a whole boatload of fiber.
+
+[16:33] It's gonna give you some swelling and some poop. Anyway, but you know what I mean? It's like so that that that can be uh an issue. The good thing about Xanthan is I doubt anyone's actually having a reaction to the Xanthan because you're using it in much smaller quantities than you would use the guar. So it has less stuff that can go in there and cause you to bloat and swell and poo and all that kind of stuff, all that good kind of stuff.
+
+[16:54] Anyway, gluten-free girl and the chef, they don't use uh gum replacements like that, they don't use guaranthan, but they do use eggs. But they brought up an interesting point which I hadn't uh thought about, which is uh, I mean, I always bake with grams. Always 100% of the time. I bake in grams. That's not true, sometimes ounces, but by weight.
+
+[17:13] Uh and by weight is obviously everyone knows it's the best way to bake. And everyone in the world thinks that we Americans are small children in the kitchen because we use these dumb cup measurements to measure things out. And in general, we can get away with it because we're measuring the same thing over and over and over again, and even though we're plus or minus about 10% with our measurements, our recipes still work. I say we should switch away from uh using cups, not because of the accuracy, although that's great, but because it's really messy to measure with cups, and it's much easier to measure and to change recipes when you're using a scale. I mean, a scale is just the best thing to have.
+
+[17:48] Anyways, uh, it turns out that these different flours that you're substituting in when you're making your uh your gluten-free flour mix have radically different densities from AP uh wheat flour. And so if you switch to going by weight, your substitutions are gonna be much much easier. And so that is what I think a good recommendation from the gluten-free girl and the chef. Anyway, let's go to our first commercial break and come back with cooking issues. I like this.
+
+[19:31] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Jack, what was that? That was uh the Pixies from Carlos. That was some weird stuff, Carlos. Yeah, man, that's what I was saying.
+
+[19:39] That's some weird, weird business. I mean, I know we're some weird people, but that's some weird, weird business. Uh calling order questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Pixies.
+
+[19:49] That's that's what? That's Bjork? No, no. Bjork was the sugar cubes. Sugar cubes.
+
+[19:54] Man, you know what? And that was my era. Like, I should like this should be on the tip of my tongue, but that just wasn't my scene. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[19:59] I was more fishbone chili peppers kind of a guy. Yeah, anywho. Uh, okay. The only reason I say that is because that's also weird. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:08] Bjork. All right. Uh, oh, uh, I forgot to mention the gluten-free girl and the chef. Those guys also use uh flax seed or chia seeds. You ever cook with that crap, Stas?
+
+[20:18] You blend it with a liquid and it turns to like a mucilaginous goop. So they also use that as a uh as a uh a structure replacer. But my point is this. If you're using a mucilaginous goop as a structure replacer, just use Xanthan. Xanthan's a great mucilaginous goop, and you don't have to go grind up flax seeds to do it.
+
+[20:38] My opinion. My opinion. Just me. Just me. Okay.
+
+[20:41] Uh oh, wait, I had something else. Oh, yeah. So when you're dealing with the gluten-free stuff, also, remember what you're using it for. A cookie doesn't need a lot of gluten. A cake doesn't need a lot of gluten.
+
+[20:50] So there you're just trying to mimic the texture of uh the texture of a wheat flour uh stuff, not necessarily the super. When you really need the hardcore gluten, is in a bread. In a cake, you want it to be fairly light. And this is another point that the gluten-free uh girl and the chef bring up, which is good, is that remember batters recipes a lot of times will tell you not to overmix, not to develop the gluten, and when you're dealing gluten-free, you don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. Uh so in a cookie or a cake, you can just focus on the taste and the texture of the kind of starch balance, the flour itself, uh, with just uh enough structure from the protein to give it some structure.
+
+[21:24] And you don't have to worry about it holding air in the way of a uh a bread would. So uh that's another reason why there's no one-to-one substitution because you're trying to do different wheat things with wheat flour depending on on what you're doing. Okay. Now, uh oh, by the way, we got uh something in from uh Elliot Papineau uh about uh stropping. Bob Kramer has a strop kit, uh so you can go online, look up Bob Kramer and purchase a strop kit.
+
+[21:49] Strops are really badass, I have to say. You look like you look like you're gonna like a like uh like Sweeney Todd Demon Barber of Fleet Street, like you're gonna go slit someone's throat as soon as you start stropping. Like if you were dropping a knife behind your kitchen counter, somebody like, yeah, I'm not gonna mess with that dude. That dude's dropping a knife behind the counter. Equally, it doesn't have to be a a guy, woman.
+
+[22:07] You know, when I say dude, it's kind of a gender-neutral dude. Is there any sort of gender-neutral? All of your appliances are women. What are you talking about? Not all my appliances are women.
+
+[22:16] Take her, make sure she's when you're talking about the centrifuge, the rotovap. You're crazy, you're a crazy lady. Okay. Uh Elliot also has a second point, which is that if you need to find uh the edge of your 70-30 knife, you just lay it flat on a stone and raise it until you feel the edge, that's good. Or I don't know if I mentioned this using a sharpie on the edge, you can feel you can look and see whether you're being accurate to do it when you want to test your edge.
+
+[22:41] Anyway, okay. He also writes in with a question, uh, Elliot does, and says, Whenever you get on the air, can you talk about the different sources of glutamate? I've been experimenting with uh various uh uh free glutamate uh containing products such as tomatoes, mushrooms, kambu, katsuabushi. And what's the best way to pair foods containing free glutamates? Well, uh that's good point and interesting.
+
+[23:02] I always uh find it hilarious when someone eats something that contains eight boatloads of uh of uh you know free uh you know glutamate there, and then they say that they have a reaction to uh MSG. Nastasha. Yeah. I'm talking about you. I know.
+
+[23:16] Anyway, uh so I mean the best thing to do is like so the classic think about it this way the classic pairing, classic, classic, classic pairing, obviously, is kambu, which is uh has a high source of uh free glutamates and katsu bushi, which has uh high high IMP. Those two things go together uh and basically synergistically react to make like megammy, mega umami, which is why kambu uh, which is why the c like combu and katsuobushi are so good together. And Nastasha hates, by the way, kambu broth. I do. But you like it once you add katsuabushi and turn it into miso sauce.
+
+[23:50] Yes. You just don't like the CV broth on its own. Yes. Anyway, so it's good to have cavity fillings. What?
+
+[23:55] It tastes like cavity fillings. Uh well, I wouldn't know. My teeth are fine. I don't have any cavities. I've never had a cavity, and I've never heard anyone describe it like that, so I'm sure you're being crazy like usual.
+
+[24:05] Cavity fillings. Why would kambu to stock taste like cavity filling? What do they make cavity fillings out of? I don't know. Aluminum?
+
+[24:12] No. You tell me if you aluminum? Aluminum. I think so. No, they used to be made out of a mercury amalgam, but they're not anymore.
+
+[24:22] It's aluminum, no. No! Why would you put aluminum in your mouth? Crazy, crazy person. It's nuts.
+
+[24:29] You know, people, seriously. People, people. Seriously. Okay. Uh so how do we get on there anyway?
+
+[24:36] Oh, yeah. So uh when you're when you're pairing things together, I mean, obviously, uh, you know, it's good to add uh I mean, I just throw a bunch of those things. I have to cook a lot of vegetarian stuff uh because uh a couple members of my family are vegetarian and they come over. So a lot of my sauces that I used to umami up by throwing in anchovies, uh, because anchovies are delicious in everything. You could throw anchovies into just about anything.
+
+[24:59] And I'm not talking about the white ones that you know everyone like, you know, they they love like the bookarones and stuff like that, which are great, they're great, fine, whatever. But like, you know, good old-fashioned salt cured anchovies uh in the can uh are like you know, one of God's great ingredients, and they make almost anything taste better. Everyone says they don't like them, and no one has ever said they don't like them when it's mixed into a pizza sauce, pizza sauce good with anchovy, yeah. Stash is nodding her head, but now salad dressing, good with an anchovy in it. Any of that stuff.
+
+[25:24] You want to you want to umelate something, bang, hit it in, you're done. Anyway, umamelate you heard it here first, cooking issues, umamalite. Uh but the uh uh the point is so like you know, you have to you have to add other high umami stuff. Now, you can go and work on things like tomatoes, and yes, I use boatloads of uh tomato paste when I'm when I'm because it's like super concentrated tomato. Obviously, you use lots of mushrooms to get that meaty stuff up, parmesan, these are you know, all obvious, and you end up, you know, you end up doping stuff back with a whole boatload of soy, right?
+
+[25:57] The problem with me is is that trying to get meaty and uh high umami flavors by uh just adding high umami ingredients like that, specifically soy and whatnot, really let lend lets makes everything kind of taste the same. It it kind of it makes all of the food have a similarity to it that you don't get uh from just, for instance, adding salt. So like uh I think I talked about this like you know, I don't know, a year ago or something like that. You know, a lot of companies are trying to lower the sodium content of their foods, and the only way they can this is the world's worst term and it shows how people think, but uh increase the palatability of the things that they make uh when they reduce the sodium. Isn't that gross there?
+
+[26:40] We're trying to reduce the sodium but increase but keep the palatability, just gross, right? It's like not like we're gonna make some delicious stuff. It's like you know, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna make it more palatable. Anyway, so they they dope it with um with a non-sodium form of uh glutamate so that they can keep the quote unquote sodium level low. Uh and they do it using that like also quote unquote natural sources, which means that they'll take like eight eight tons of seaweed and turn it into a powder.
+
+[27:06] Might as well just use MSG. Anyway, uh problem is when you dope foods with specifically with like lots of free glutamates like that, they tend to then all taste like dashi to me, right? Mm-hmm. You've had that also happen too, right? I was tasting somebody's pasta.
+
+[27:21] I think I mentioned this. I was tasting someone's pasta and it was it was a fettuccine alfredo, right? And which is what I strangely what I call my wife sometimes, because it's like Jennifer, Jennifer, Fred, Freddie, Freddie, any whatever. Anyway, like all almost everything I say in in private when I'm not on the air is some stupid, stupid combination of crazy, dumb, random inferences. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:45] Anyway, uh so Fettuccine Alfredo, I was like, this tastes good, but Federcini Alfredo is not supposed to taste like Dashi. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Right? Anyway.
+
+[27:54] Anyways. Uh so that's my feeling, Elliot, uh uh on that. Should we do one more commercial? Before I go on the more commercial break, I'll have to say this. My favorite Valentine's quote of all time.
+
+[28:04] Last year I was in the Rite Aid outside of my house, which is a pharmacy for all you people that don't know what a right aid is. Nastasha hates them because she only shops at TVS. She literally went better music. Okay, okay. She literally last last week Nastasha had a root canal, right?
+
+[28:17] So I hope she was high on Vikodin when she made this choice. She went to a she went out of her way to go to a CVS, even though they had a two hour wait for the medicine. If she could have got it in the 10 minutes at the right age, she would two hours like out of her way, two hours wait for his medicine because she likes to hold music better. No. Yes.
+
+[28:35] The store music. The store music. Whatever. Yes. Whatever.
+
+[28:39] That's hold. You're on hold. Really? I know. I know.
+
+[28:44] Crazy, right? You know, put on your iPod, listen to whatever music you want, and don't wait two hours for your Vicodin, your antibiotics. That's my point. Anyways, I'm in the right A like a year ago, and they had the Easter decorations out right around now. And someone let a lady walks in, she goes, Easter, it ain't even Valentine's Over yet.
+
+[29:03] Anyway, commercial break. My name is Cupid Valentino. The Martin Bay Cupid. I just want to say one thing. Happy Valentine's Day.
+
+[29:23] I don't think that hurt, man. I just want to say happy Valentine's Day. Can y'all do that? Now, when arrows don't penetrate. Let's see.
+
+[29:41] Huh? Yeah. Yeah. Now look at here. He straight for your heart.
+
+[29:48] Now you won't miss you. Well, that's alright. Y'all won't believe in me anyway, but all this talk about Santa Claus will rule supreme. Every day in the Ford game. You got it.
+
+[30:22] When a cute hit knocks at your door. You can't ignore me. There's no need to rhyme. So happy Valentine's Day. Hey.
+
+[30:36] You can't, you cannot ignore the cube. And by the way, I just looked out the window, and Indy Jesus looks like he's having a fine Valentine's Day. Oh yeah. Yeah, he's a smile on Indy Jesus' face. You know what it takes to get Jesus to smile?
+
+[30:48] You know? Anyway, today's show is sponsored by the Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients? But hate, hate, hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist Pantry has a solution.
+
+[31:02] They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you.
+
+[31:20] With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries sequestrants, including sodium citrate and sodium hexametophosphate. These ingredients act as a preservative and also mop up straight calcium ions, which is helpful when working with hydrocholorides and gel in the presence of calcium. AKA, sodium alternate, and calcogella. Okay, which is Jel Ann.
+
+[31:42] Uh, fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free pack uh free package of sodium hexametaphosphate to play with. Simply use the promo code CI72 and placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Hey and Chris Anderson, good for you for doing the sodium hexametaphosphate and not the sodium citrate. Sodium hexametaphosphate is the baller sequestering.
+
+[32:04] Sodium citrate is more of a buffer. Sodium hexametaphosphate or shimp as they call it. That stuff's the balls. It's good stuff. Oh, also, Colin, longtime writer in Colin, writes, because you know I always gripe about what's the difference between a home cook and an enthusiast.
+
+[32:18] What are we talking about? So Colin writes in regarding enthusiasts. You don't need to cook anything to play with hydrocolloids. Science nerds love that stuff, but some can't actually feed themselves. Thus I believe the distinction, Colin.
+
+[32:32] Other topics, uh, my wedding anniversary, which I'm not my wedding anniversary. No, no, no, no. That was my note to you. I thought Colin knew my anniversary something. I was crazy.
+
+[32:40] It's like, how's Colin gonna know that? It's not my wedding anniversary. I got married in June. It's my anniversary of going out. Nastasha, you know what?
+
+[32:45] Like, listen, Nastacha, when you put this stuff on there, put it our comments in a different color. Just so you know how this show runs. Like your comments when you write them are in black, and my comments that I make to jog my memory when I'm yapping on the radio, I write in blue, so I can tell what's us and what's you. And the headline of your question I write in red. Not that anyone gives a rat's patoot.
+
+[33:06] Okay. Uh now. What? I can't say patoot. You thought Colin knew.
+
+[33:12] I thought Colin was like other topics. It's random. Okay. Okay. So we have a question in from uh Marvin uh Woodhouse saying, uh, loves the show and been listening from Ireland and now Germany since day one.
+
+[33:24] From Ireland to Germany. It's pretty cool. I wonder what I wonder what uh I wonder what the they do. Yeah, what do they do that they're moving from Ireland to Germany? I wonder, curious.
+
+[33:32] Anyway. Question one. I'm in the process of moving to Germany, and most apartments here do not come with kitchens. Just a bare room with tiles and connections. So I'll be starting from square one.
+
+[33:41] What's the must-have list of stuff in it uh if you were starting from a bare room? Nothing, not even extraction. That's a hood for you and I in America. Uh the kitchen will be about 20 square meters. So Nastasha, look up what 20 square meters is in square feet so my brain can wrap my head around it.
+
+[33:55] Okay. First of all, I know there's plenty of people here in New York City that wish their apartment came with no kitchen because it's just wasted space. How many people do you know that use their oven as a bookcase? I do, which is crazy. First of all, uh just a separate note.
+
+[34:08] Anyone out there, never store crap in your oven, right? It just means that you have a mental imbalance or a problem. Yeah. Don't ever store stuff in your oven. It's just it's just not right because it implies you're not going to use it.
+
+[34:21] If you're gonna cook, don't store anything in your oven. My two cents. So what's 20 square meters? Coming. Oh, thanks, Google.
+
+[34:28] Thanks, ATT with the slow Google. All right. First thing is first, as you mentioned, extraction. It's my feeling that a hunt light like the the biggest it's eventually gonna be seen as a health issue, right? For people who cook a lot.
+
+[34:41] 215.2 square. Oh, that's good. 215, that's about the size of my kitchen. That's a good space. It's a good size space.
+
+[34:47] Uh I mean it's small by suburban standards, but you know, my kitchen's pretty comfortable at 200 square feet, right? Yeah. I can have eight people cooking in my kitchen. But it's very well designed. Anyway, if I do say so myself.
+
+[34:58] Uh, but uh extraction a hood is the most important thing. Everyone here is underdesigned in terms of uh their hoods. Home hoods suck. Uh they're the worst. They're useless.
+
+[35:09] Not useless, but they're they're of limited usefulness. I would invest in a really good fan uh vent that this is illegal in the US. I don't know whether it is in Germany. Vent it straight out the window with a straight pipe, straight out the window. Uh I purchased a large blower and it the hood itself doesn't need to be expensive.
+
+[35:29] It's just a piece of metal. It's the fan that you need uh uh good fan. And bigger fans rotate at slower speeds and therefore are not as annoying as little fans that rotate at high speeds. So I would say if you're gonna spend uh you know your nickels, first of all, go with good uh a good hood. Secondly, if you're in Germany, I haven't checked it recently, but I assume it's similar to France in that the gas prices are relatively high relative to electric compared to the US.
+
+[35:54] Get an induction uh get induction. If you're gonna be in this apartment a long time, then go ahead and get something that's built in. Otherwise, you can get really nice induction hobs that you can take with you when you go. In particular, some manufacturers now make front back uh induction units so that you can uh mimic an actual traditional uh range by stacking induction units next to each other and having front back on induction. So I would uh you know I would definitely go that way.
+
+[36:22] If you want to go more permanent, you can get uh an induction uh, you know, a regular induction over range, but the over range the over things don't necessarily work that well. But I'll go separate. Uh get a good convection oven with uh with um a good convection oven would be nice. Uh electric there as well. Uh I'm assuming that you're again I'm assuming that electricity is gonna be the best for you there in terms of uh cost.
+
+[36:46] So uh again, I really don't have any idea what you're gonna. I'll tell you what I have in mind, which is about the same spot. I have I have a large uh oven that could take a full sheet pan. If you're gonna cook, you wanted that. It's not necessary, but full sheet pan is again baller I have six burners you're probably not gonna have that if you don't have extraction especially if you're gonna go induction I also have a salamander which you're probably not gonna put in your place but I love it uh and a deep fry next to it I find that that combination which I don't expect you to emulate is I can cook I can bang out uh like a small restaurant's worth of food in my kitchen without breaking a sweat because it is the setup that you would have in a small restaurant kitchen basically I have a fryer a salamander six burners and a and a full sheet pan uh oven obviously for me it's important to have an espresso machine uh but you know whatever since you're building this yourself you can do some cool stuff the coolest thing that you could possibly do is uh put foot pedals on your sink every every sink uh in the in the world in a kitchen or bathroom should have foot pedals installed so that when your hands are disgusting you don't have to touch the faucet so I have uh I have hot and cold foot pedals uh on my on my floor and my wife who didn't think it was uh so important or such a good idea she was like really really now is like yes really you need that everyone who's used them loves it and since you're installing from scratch uh get get the foot pedals don't skimp on your sink size sink size you're never gonna need too you know sink size is important right don't you hate a tiny sink what do you think yeah I hate tiny sinks tiny sinks tiny sinks is there anything else for you that's good good recognition oh no my patch that's the hey Patrick Martins founder of Heritage Foods coming into the studio hey everybody yeah there he is oh he's got some really nice orange corduroys that I now covet you covet I covet Patrick Martin's orange corduroy pants.
+
+[38:31] Okay. 18 miles, baby. What? What happened eighteen miles. Of what?
+
+[38:35] In two days I ran. Oh, Patrick ran 18 miles in in two days. I don't know that it's not good for your knees. That's you know, that's bad for your knees. You know.
+
+[38:43] Anyway. Okay, question two from Marvin. Uh I have a badass poly science lab circular uh circulator, model uh eight eight one two. By the way, I couldn't find eight eight one two. But the unit is so big that it's difficult to fit food round in the small bath that's designed to fit.
+
+[38:56] I've removed it from the lab bath, but there's no mounting bracket. Do you have any experience of mounting these things to or over a sink? I haven't actually mounted one of those to a sink, but uh you might want to look at this as an alternative. Uh though uh some of those units, the a the uh and I couldn't find your exact one, but I have one that looks similar to it, have two screws in the back of it uh on the bath itself that allow you to circulate in and out of that same bath. So you could literally just put uh hoses and circulate into a sink and put the whole circulator into a cabinet next to it.
+
+[39:30] And I've done that many times. That's how I chilled my rota vap, for instance. Uh you just have to make sure you get the water levels uh relatively the same so that you don't overflow your circulator bath. But uh I would do that, or else you could just uh make a second uh I mean if you could weld, obviously you could do it, but you could easily mount one by just having someone cut out a stainless steel bracket with the same hole mounting pattern as the one that was in the bath and then cantilever it over your sink. I would make it with wing nuts so that you could take it off uh very quickly without taking up too much space.
+
+[40:00] But yes, it's definitely possible. But look into just using the bath as uh as a holding bin so that you can circulate stuff in and out. Question three. I'm throwing a cocktail party next month. Uh to Marcus leaving Ireland.
+
+[40:11] Can you have a caller? Oh wait, I have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. Uh, uh this is Todd Bryant. Got a quick question for you.
+
+[40:20] Go ahead. Um on following up on your knife uh discussion a couple weeks ago. Uh how often do you use a steel on your knives? Uh well, back in the day on my German uh on my German knives, I would use them pretty much uh, you know, before and after, pretty much all the time. Or when my strop was hanging, I would I would strop them before and after.
+
+[40:43] I mean, it all depends on what kind of uh what kind of knife. So my German ones, I I used to sharpen uh I you know, just not a quick one, you know, I wouldn't like go through the whole sharpening process, but I'd touch up the blades on the stone probably once a week. And uh and then you know, I would strop and or steal every use. My Japanese knives, you touch them up every time you use them, basically, afterwards, you know. Uh and you know, the the the real traditional Japanese ones.
+
+[41:10] And the Japanese Western ones, I never had much of a knack sharpening them. I got I so I ended up I ended up not using them as much because I was not so good at sharpening them. Okay. All right. So just touch my before and after then.
+
+[41:21] Uh yeah, I would know. Well, then how do you know when it's time to do a full sharpening? Or you just do that automatically once a week? Yeah, I would just do it automatically, or if they start dulling out or someone picks up your knife and uses it for something inappropriate, you know, it's like you you know, you know when your knife is getting dull. You know when you can't bring it back, and the tomato you start having to push into it and you split the tomato, you know what I mean?
+
+[41:43] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's just, you know, you could do it by that. I find it easier if you just choose a time to do it. It depends on how much you cook.
+
+[41:50] You know what I mean? But uh if you just choose a time to do it, uh then your knives are always gonna be in fantastic shape, and you're not gonna get creep and start using uh uh a dull knife when it could be sharp. So back when I could have sharp knives in my house, I would just have a routine, and you know, every Sunday before I started cooking family dinner, I would just go through my knives and sharpen it. I used an edge pro, which was easy to set up because I could just keep most of my knives at a similar edge angle and I can rip through them pretty quickly. An edge pro is not a good uh sharpening system to sharpen one knife.
+
+[42:20] It's good to sharpen your whole set of knives. You know what I mean? Because you have to set it up and all that stuff. Yeah. Okay, great.
+
+[42:27] Well, that's what you answered my question. Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh all right, so uh question three, and I gotta answer this one. Uh again from Marvin.
+
+[42:35] I'm throwing cocktail party next month to Marcus leaving Ireland. Can you suggest some interesting cocktails and canope combos? Or as I call them canaps. I have an uh ISI but no proper carbonation rig. I also have agar gelatin.
+
+[42:46] I also need some non-alcoholic cocktails that are not lame as there will be some pregnant ladies in attendance. Okay, well I hit the non-alcoholic stuff. I say make coriander the coriander syrup. Mm-hmm. Right.
+
+[42:55] So if you make coriander syrup, just take make a simple syrup, crush up coriander, put it in there, add a little bit of uh like a hot pepper, preferably red, like Thai, red, or serrano or something like that. Um that syrup makes a fantastic soda, and you can carbonate in an ISI, it's just gonna cost you more. And the way you carbonate in an ISI is by uh sh shaking, adding some water, shaking the syrup with uh with water, and then putting one CO2 cartridge in, shaking a little bit, venting that entire one off. You've cleared out all of the uh air in there in that now. Now put a second charger on, shake it, and you'll get a good uh second CO2 charger in your ISI.
+
+[43:32] Uh vent very very let sit for a couple of minutes after you shake it, let it vent very slowly, and you can get a decent soda, and that's good. That syrup is also really good as a cocktail for uh old fashions, it makes a great old fashioned uh makes a good tequila old fashioned, good mezcal old fashioned. Uh, we've been using that uh in everything. That if you do make an old fashioned using coriander syrup, it's called a cliff old fashioned because uh you know, Cliff or you know, uh ex-intern Cliff uh came up with the idea of making a uh what's it called an old fashioned with that syrup uh you have any Nastasha's gonna think of good uh canaps while I answer your last question and not you have uh next month I have a week to think we have a week to think of your Knaps can I pay so I'll come back to it and also I will next week suggest some things that you might be able to use with your one kilogram of NZORBIT that's in your kitchen listen Marvin if you have one kilogram of NZOBI in your kitchen that's almost going to take up your entire 200 square foot space because one kilogram of end zorbit is a giant giant amount of NZOBIT and Zorbit for all that you don't know is the is the stuff that you make power uh oils into powders with but I'll come back with you on that Marvin next week and we'll do it and that has been this week for cooking issues thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadio Network dot com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[44:59] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes you can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues coming to you live actually 15 minutes early today, right? Usually we start 15 minutes late.
+
+[0:30] Today we're starting 15 minutes early. Uh, whatever. Whatever. 10 minutes early is like eight years early as far as we're concerned here. Anyway, coming to you semi live from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245.
+
+[0:46] Uh today actually we had to shift it a little bit earlier because I have to go do an interview on uh that's public radio, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's just the splendid table. And some Nincom Poop thought that it would be a great idea for me to uh skip my own radio show to go do somebody else's, which makes no sense, right? So should you happen to be listening early or uh or you know in the next 10 minutes or so, call in your questions to 718497-2128, then 718497-2128.
+
+[1:18] Uh, might as well actually go through the uh who's sponsoring us today, right? Now uh today's it Well, it's sponsored by the Modernist Pantry again, which is what you know we're used to having sponsored by, but we don't have a new promo, so I'll just read the old one. Ready? Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients?
+
+[1:36] But hate, hate, hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue.
+
+[1:55] You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients.
+
+[2:07] Modernist Pantry carries sequestrants, including sodium citrate and sodium hexametophosphate. These ingredients act as a shimp. I call that stuff shimp. These ingredients act as a preservative and also mop up straight calcium ions, which is helpful with working at hydrocolloids that gel in the presence of calcium, like sodium alginate or uh gel an. Uh fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of sodium hexametaphosphate to play with.
+
+[2:32] Simply use the promo code CI72 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Right? Mm-hmm. Yes.
+
+[2:44] Oh, by the way, Jack, uh, we have a uh request from uh Marvin Woodhouse, the the gentleman that's moving from Ireland to Germany, more on more on him later. Uh he uh requests Fool's Gold by the uh Stone Rose Stone Roses. Can we uh accommodate him for our break? Oh, yes we can. Wow.
+
+[3:03] I like the Obama reference. Yes, we can. All right. Uh in from uh Marty, just a quick question. I was making a quick red sauce by browning my meat, and because I was too lazy to chop, I buzzed the canned tomatoes, raw vegetables, and seasoning in a blender before adding it to the pot.
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+[3:18] Seemed to work. So, in a long braise, is there any purpose for sweating the vegetables when you're not looking for caramelization? That's an interesting question. Mm-hmm. Right?
+
+[3:28] Well, I don't know. Uh I would assume that even if you're not browning, let's say let's take onions. Let's just take onions. First of all, I like to get a little color on some of my vegetables when I'm working with them when I'm sweating them out. What about you, Stas?
+
+[3:41] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh now typically, you know, in a Frenchy French recipe, though, they're specifically not looking for color because they want to maintain, you know, the color of the sauce that they're making, even though all those classic French sauces end up a gloppy brown anyway, right?
+
+[3:55] I mean, let's face it. Right? Anyway, so uh they they're sweating them out to not get color. However, even below the um take an onion, even before real color is formed, there are flavor uh changes that take place in terms of sweetness. I don't know if those same kind of flavor transformations are gonna take place in the same way if you just blend them and then cook them.
+
+[4:16] Certainly in a long braise, the the liquid will be there enough to soften the vegetables to cook them. But the question is, is there any significant flavor change by pre-sweating and then adding? I don't know. Uh I would bet that uh it'd probably be minor if it exists at all, except for perhaps onion sweetness, but it's an interesting question. That's the kind of thing you should really just do uh side by side trial, you know.
+
+[4:39] Take one, blend it beforehand, cook it, take the other, sweat it, then blend it, and then uh bring them both up to the same temperature and serve it, make sure the dilution's right. Sounds like an interesting experiment, right, Stas? Yeah. So uh follow that under, hey, I have no idea. Okay.
+
+[4:52] Hi, Anastasia, Dave, Jack, and Carlos from Mark Younger. I was taking a truffles class at a local kitchen supply store, by the way, chocolate truffles, not the stuff that's growing underground, even though it this is the you know good season for crap that's growing underground. Actually, it's I guess it's a little late, right? Valentine's Day is the end? Yeah.
+
+[5:08] Anyway, you're like, yeah, I'm not paying attention to the phone. No, Jack's texting me. So helping you out. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
+
+[5:13] Anyway. Uh I was taking a uh Troubles class at local kitchen supply store and ended up getting into a discussion with the chef about how one might use an immersion circulator to make dealing with chocolate easier. It is pretty clear that it would be a great way to hold tempered chocolate as long as you were careful in getting all the water off the bags before you use the chocolate. The question we couldn't figure out is whether you could use the immersion circulator with its precise control of temperature to temperature temper the chocolate in the first place. This would presumably require melting the chocolate at the desired temp, then lowering the temp to get the level you traditionally aim for by either seating or uh tabling the chocolate, and then raising the temperature back up to get proper crystal formation.
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+[5:47] Are you aware of whether this works or whether there's another way to temper chocolate in the immersion circulator? Uh Mark, okay. That's an interesting question. Uh I have been told a billion times that it works. Uh I've never actually done it, but uh we'll go into a very quick discussion of tempering chocolate for those out there who aren't hip to chocolate tempering.
+
+[6:06] So uh the cocoa butter and chocolate is uh goes into a number of different crystal forms, right? Only one of which is the desirable beta crystal that provides a snap and uh looks shiny and awesome and tastes awesome, right? Uh uh it f it basically is in direct distinction with beta prime forms, which are softer, melt at a lower temperature, don't have a snap, and it's just in general crap, right? So you really want a good for most applications, although not for truffles, for truffles is fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:39] Who cares in a truffle? It's a ganache. Ganache. Anyway, so um uh what you want to do when you temper chocolate, now the beta prime crystals, right, they will swamp out if you're cooling chocolate that's melted, right? Like the beta prime crystals will swamp out the good beta crystals and you'll end up with untempered chocolate.
+
+[6:57] This is why if you just heat chocolate uh up and then let it cool back down again, you get an untempered sloppy mess, right? Uh so the good news is that well, here's how you do it. So you heat up the chocolate and you melt all the crystals out. Then you cool it down and uh into the high 80s somewhere, and in that range, in the 80s somewhere, uh crystals start forming. Mostly the crappy ones, the uh the you know beta primes, right, and also the uh betas.
+
+[7:23] Then you heat the mixture up slowly again into a range where all the beta prime crystals melt, but the uh sorry, yeah, the beta prime crystals melt, but the beta crystals are still good. And then you hold it there for a while, and then when you chill it again, those beta crystals act as the seeds and you get tempered chocolate. Bang, bang, right? And since it's all about very accurate temperature control, this is possible. You can do this uh with an immersion circulator.
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+[7:48] And you certainly could melt all of the chocolate up to a high temperature, drop it all, wait for it to get viscous and you see it start seeding it, and then bring it up uh very accurately with it with an immersion circulator. However, you should be able to do uh an even simpler technique, which is throw the entire uh block of probably graded pre-tempered chocolate, right? If you start with a tempered chocolate, uh in a bag, vacuum it down, and throw it in a circulator at like 92, 90, 91, 92, in a place that will uh melt the undesirable crystals but leave all your seed crystals intact. And I think that will work. I don't know if you need to take it above the total melting point of the chocolate before it'll become viscous enough to work.
+
+[8:32] Um I don't think so, because I've heard that I've heard you can do that, although I've never tried it. Either technique would work. It would just be a much simpler if you could just throw it in at the working temperature and go from there, right, Stuff? Yeah. I don't know.
+
+[8:43] Give it a try. I've heard it works. I've never done it. You ever done it? No.
+
+[8:47] No. You could ask Brooks or someone. Anyway. Uh uh Carlos, by the way, here's one, here's one for you. Hi, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and the other guy.
+
+[8:56] Wow. Wow. The other guy. Even Indy Jesus has a name. Yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[8:59] Even Indy Jesus gets called out by name. Carlos becomes the other guy. You know, that reminds me, uh, I think I'm I don't know if I've mentioned this on the air, but the very first uh season of Gilligan's Island in the song, it's you know, Gilligan, the skipper too, the millionaire and his wife, the movie star, and the rest. That's what they say. They're like, the movie star and the rest here on Gil Wait, really?
+
+[9:28] Like, just it takes just as much energy to say Professor and Mary Ann as it does to say and the rest. And I think, you know, and because Mary Ann was obviously the hot one, right? And the and the professor was really cool. Everyone liked the professor, right? So in subsequent seasons, it was you know, the movie star, Professor and Mary Ann, I mean, which sounds even better than and the rest.
+
+[9:48] And the rest? Really? Come on now. And you know, Mary Ann's the one that ended up writing like the Gilligan's Island cookbooks, and I think keeps track of all the reunion stuff of all the people that are still alive. How do you know that?
+
+[10:01] What do you mean how do I know that? How does how do you not know that? Give first of all, Gilligan's Island, you know, a cultural milestone in American uh TV history. And uh, you know, Carlos, the other guy. Anyway.
+
+[10:13] He has a name. Now you're pulling out the Jim Croce references. That's actually the only reason why it's the only reason why. But so for for those of you that don't know, Jim Croce, the whatever, however you classify his singing, you know, died in a plane crash, I guess in the 70s. Nastasha and I have this ongoing kind of Jim Croce inside joke thing.
+
+[10:33] Yeah, love hate thing. Because like Jim Croce, when he's singing something, he's like, he never gets to the damn point. Like he'll call someone on the telephone, an operator who doesn't give a rat's ass about what he's talking about, and he'll sit there and chew this operator's ear off for like three or four minutes about this like lady he's trying to call, and then he's like, you know what? Forget about it and keep the dime. Like she gives a crap about the dime.
+
+[10:52] She's working for the phone company. Or this other one, he's like calling up this girl at like, you know, three in the freaking morning, saying, you know, I know it's kind of late. You know, then there's I hope I didn't wake you. What the hell? It's late.
+
+[11:03] And you're like this long ass story about how you has had to say that you love her in a song. Can't you do that at a reasonable damned hour? Makes no damn sense. Croaty. Well, we love him.
+
+[11:13] We love him anyway. We love crochet. Anyway, so the uh got a name references to a croochy song, long way of getting around it. Anyway, uh so Matthew says, I've been playing around with making mozzarella at home using some commercial cheese curds. It comes out really nice.
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+[11:26] I just cut the curds into little pieces, let them come up to room temperature, heat up some lightly salted water between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit, pour it over the curds, powder them a little, then pull out a ball of the cheese. After that, I usually plunge the ball into a bath of lightly salted cold water and help it set a little. The cheese is good, but I want it to be better. My goal is a softer, fresh mozzarella cheese as opposed to something harder, squeakier, or stringy. Do you have any strategies or suggestions for making better mozzarella without upgrading the quality of my curds?
+
+[11:55] Uh thanks, Matthew. Well, that's a very interesting question. Uh mozzarella is one of the, you know, it's one of those strange things in life that the simpler a product is, it often the easier it is for us to find uh major differences with kind of minor things in technique, right? So bread is a classic example, yeast, salt, water, uh, flour, and yet look at the variances in bread, right? Or coffee is an is another example.
+
+[12:22] And in general, the more complicated something is, the easier it is to cover up flaws and techniques or ingredients because there's just a mishmash of crap going on, right? So mozzarella is one of these things that's supposed to taste of the fresh milk. And so you have uh all of the factors involved before the cheese curd is made. Or you know, there's there's the quality of the milk, right? Then there is uh I was reading a bunch of studies this morning on the effect of different starter cultures uh on the uh texture and taste of mozzarella cheese and apparently they have a huge impact.
+
+[12:50] But the the key thing with mozzarella curd is the pH, the acidity level has to be right when it's made or it won't have the proper texture. Okay? So you you have to start with good curds. That said, the commercial curds are what everyone uh and and and by the way the the way it works is it is it the acidity is is necessary to get the stringiness right because it the the pH is is drastically affecting how the cheese curds are going to interact when they're melted out and and uh pulled uh to make a pasta filata style cheese dough. And the same same pH is the reason why you add wine to a fondue, Nastasha's favorite thing because she loves the Swiss uh because it kind of increase uh it basically you know alters the way that the that the casein's uh is going to interact with itself.
+
+[13:33] Anyways so um so all of that stuff is uh very vital that said once you say okay look I'm gonna I'm gonna have this commercial made curd there's a huge variance in um how the final mozzarella is going to taste based on the um based on uh your practices afterwards and so all everything is uh makes a difference including how you slice the curd because that's going to change how fast the heat from the hot water goes in the temperature of the water you use, whether there's any salt in the water, and finally the forming technique and how much you stretch it and pull it, right? So presumably um i and and just so show this, you know, if you I don't know if you live near New York, but you go to New York, you can go to any one of five or ten different mozzarella joints and you know New York, New Jersey, Connecticut major metropolitan area. You go to like five different fresh mozzarella joints, they're all getting their mozzarella curds from polio, uh, and yet their cheese styles are radically different. So some people do a lot of stretching right and pulling uh and that and think about what's happening. If you look at mozzarella under a uh microscope, scanning electron microscope, uh what you'll see is kind of these pulled layers and think of it the same way that you think of bread dough, these pulled layers in between the pulled layers you'll find uh trapped water, uh trapped whey uh and and and fat glaues.
+
+[14:51] So um if Nastasha hates that word globule she does she's making her globule face which is very similar to her vegan face. So um that stretching is going to align and create that structure squeeze out the water and make kind of thin sheets. So when you're making something like a biratta that needs to hold its outside shape they probably do a lot of a stretching to make it kind of or some people will even stretch it once, re melt it and stretch it again. Or some people prefer a softer curve with less uh softer mozzarella with less structure that has more weeping and more large open pores I tend to like the less structured more weepy kind of mozzarella what about you stuff yeah I mean that's what I prefer and so I would recommend probably less uh less kneading but what I really recommend you do is find a mozzarella joint that you like go there and watch what they do as opposed to what you do uh and see kind of what the difference is uh you know at the at the school at the French Culinary Institute they teach mozzarella making to all of the students and it's all universally horrible, right? I mean, no offense to the students, but the first time you make mozzarella, it's not going to be that good.
+
+[15:52] In fact, I've only made it a couple of times, and I stopped because my wife was like, You suck at this. We should just go, you know, to someone we like like DiPalos, who knows how to make mozzarella and buy it. And in fact, I said this before, like the po like uh like I'm not gonna get a debate over who makes the the good or best mozzarella, but uh I like the guys at DePaul's, I go to them all the time. When they uh when their cheesemaker who was hired by the current, you know, generation's father retired, they changed their cheese style to be more in line. So their cheese their mozzarella changed radically because they changed their uh their mold their forming technique from the one that their father and his cheesemaker had favored, which was a a less porous, less weepy mozzarella to uh, you know, to one that is kind of softer.
+
+[16:38] Um so it's entirely in in your control. Uh I would go observe someone with the real hands because it's a real art and practice to making a mozzarella, yeah? Yeah? No? Yeah.
+
+[16:47] All right. Let's go to our first commercial break. Calling your questions to 718497-21289 uh 784972128 cooking it's use. Hello, welcome back to Cooking Issues. Calling your questions.
+
+[18:09] We should be live now for normal people who are calling in. 27184972128. That's 7184972128. In case you just tuned in, this show is again brought to you by the Monist Pantry. Go back and listen to it.
+
+[18:19] It's the same promo as before. So uh Marvin uh Woodhouse uh called in. I gotta go get I was looking at his link that he sent me on his uh public transportation because I found turns out that I guess in the last couple of weeks I've been railing on New York's public transportation system, and I really shouldn't, because I love it. I use it all the time. I mean I'm appreciative of New York City's subway system, which is as far as I know, the only 24 hour subway system in the world.
+
+[18:46] So we don't have any like, you know, crazy night buses in our city that you have to like get scraped onto a bus with like all of the people who can barely hold themselves, you know, hold themselves upright or have already turned into a shivering mass of jelly. And uh, you know, so I'm really appreciative of our subway system. Oh, basically on that, before I go on. Uh, you know, uh, as some of you might know, uh, we recently opened a bar booker in Dax, and uh now uh I'm in the habit of quite often walking home at three and four in the morning stone sober, which is not something that I'm used to. And man, the pizza, the people on the streets of New York are are messed up looking at four in the morning.
+
+[19:24] Right? Yeah. It's but it's like uh you ever been to England back in the day, like when all the pubs were like closed at 11 and people it's like basically like at 11 o'clock, people stumbling around England. So 11 o'clock in England looks like you know two or three here. I think it's changed.
+
+[19:38] I don't know. Anyway, so uh he was uh Marvin was showing us uh his uh he moved to Wurpital Germany and it was showing us uh his public transportation, which is some crazy ass monorail called the Schwebybon. You like that name? Yeah, Shwebi Bon. Anyway, uh so uh well more on him later.
+
+[19:59] Let's go uh go back to our regular questions. Hello, Nastasha and Dave. Uh Tom Fisher writes in from Lansdown PA. I have a three-liter centrifuge arriving in about a week, and I'll need to bleach out the rabies. Any tips for making sure everything is safe before I use it.
+
+[20:13] Also, uh, what would you recommend is the first thing I spin? I think I'm making some fruit juices. How is a centrifuge with strawberries? Well, uh let's start backwards. Centerfuge strawberries are fantastic.
+
+[20:25] Uh, I recommend uh getting a hold of some Pectin X Ultra SPL. None of this stuff really centrifuges well without uh the addition of some uh enzyme to if you really want it clear. I mean you can centrifuge out and get uh a puck and a supernatant uh but it's it's not your yield is gonna be poor and it's not gonna be clear unless you uh unless you add the SPL. If you add the SPL, uh you can just literally blend strawberries in a blender, add a couple of grams of pectin X ultra SPL enzyme uh to the strawberry in the blender, hold the back of your hand against the blender until it warms up to a little bit above body temperature, let it sit for about 10 minutes. The enzyme is gonna break down a lot of the pectin and make it a lot more uh you know less viscous, so that when you spin it, uh you're gonna get a very good uh separation between you know of the of the of the solids from the liquids.
+
+[21:14] And your yield should be very high on the order of 70% or so. Uh one of the things you have to worry about when you're centrifuging is that when you blend something like strawberries, there's uh a lot of air that's whipped into it, and strangely that air uh doesn't necessarily pop when you spin it. Some of those air bubbles can actually withstand the G forces involved in centrifuging. So uh if you have access to a vacuum machine, it's a good idea to quickly at a very low temperature, obviously, because it's in a vacuum, do a quick uh de-aeration or boil out of the air in the strawberry in your vacuum machine before you centrifuge it. If not, it's not going to be too big of a problem.
+
+[21:53] Just spin it for 10 or 15 minutes, uh put it through a coffee filter or through a piece of muslin or something like that uh to catch anything that goes through. And we do strawberries all the time and and and we love it. Now, back on safety and bleaching out the rabies. There's two questions as to safety. There is uh there are well three really.
+
+[22:12] There's there's um poison that might be in it, right? You have to worry about. Then there are uh you know biohazards that might be in it, like uh uh infectious agents, right? And then although uh probably not poison, it's probably mainly gonna be biological agents that are gonna cause you problems. And uh third is um mechanical damage that could lead to unsafe operation in the centrifuge, right?
+
+[22:34] So you have to take care of all three. So uh the aluminum swinging buckets in your three liter centrifuge need to be uh first soaked in a bleach solution, right? And then uh eye pressure cook them, right? When you're pressure cooking, if you want to actually sterilize, what you need to do is make sure there's no air at all in the system because uh it can uh it can cause problems with uh sterilization. So you want to submerse the buckets in uh your pressure cooker and pressure cook them for like 20 minutes at second ring, and you should have killed anything that ails it.
+
+[23:09] You can then, if you'd like, re-bleach uh them and then let them air dry. You don't want to use any detergents really. You scrub them with you know with something, but you don't want to use any harsh detergents because they can uh affect the aluminum, the integrity of the aluminum. And you do not the one thing you always want to make sure is that you do not affect the integrity of the aluminum buckets. The other thing you wanna be careful of is you wanna inspect your buckets, your aluminum buckets for damage.
+
+[23:33] If your buckets are damaged, uh then they're probably unsafe. If you want to inspect your rotor, make sure that there's no cracks or problems with the rotor. Uh if there are, then it's unsafe. So you gotta ensure that all of that is is is okay. You wanna make sure that you balance your uh buckets properly, get a trip balance that can balance the two buckets against each other and and make sure you keep everything balanced at all times.
+
+[23:57] Make sure everything spins freely. The inside of your the entire centrifuge should be completely wiped down with a uh concentrated bleach sanitizing solution. You should then pour bleach sanitizing solution in the drain hole of your centrifuge and let it come out. Uh and then do this several times. And that's how that's the technique that I use to bleach the rabies out of these things and and to get them safe to go.
+
+[24:21] Um the strawberry technique I told you uh works with any non-acidic fruit, right? Uh even things that are mildly acidic, that's that will work with. If you need to clarify, like we do at the bar, lime juice, uh, you're gonna need to move to a different set of uh a different battery of uh clarification techniques. Uh no three-liter centrifuge that you get is going to be adequate to clarify lime juice on its own. That requires about 48,000 G's.
+
+[24:50] You could do it at 27,000, but it's n doesn't taste good. But you're not going to achieve that in a standard three-liter centrifuge. So what you're gonna need to use is a combination of the enzyme I mentioned, pectanex XPL, and wine finding agents. We use Kesel Sol, which is a sp suspended silica gel, uh suspended silicosol, rather, and uh chitosan, which is uh from shrimp sales. It's a hydrocolloid.
+
+[25:11] And our procedure very quickly is gonna be definitely boring to people who don't know who don't have this crap. But I'll give it to you anyway. Here it is, real quick. It's add two grams per liter of uh of uh pectinx ultra SPL and two grams per liter of Kesel Sol, suspended silicosol, uh to the to your lime juice, stir it, let it sit 20 minutes, add two grams of chitosan, stir, uh let's sit 20 minutes, add two more grams of Kesel Sol, stir it, and then spin it out, and you should get 100% clear lime juice. And the reason we add it so many times is you're playing a game with charges where you're adding uh uh charge to something, causing particles to flock together, then adding a different charge, causing those particles to flock together, and so on and so on.
+
+[25:52] But anyway, uh good luck with your centrifuge. I'm sure you will enjoy it, right? Are we doing another crucial break or no? No. No?
+
+[25:58] We're ripping on through. Uh man, I wonder whether we actually rip through everything. We can uh just talk about other stuff, did we? No, Marvin. Oh, yeah.
+
+[26:07] Well he didn't he was he said specifically, Marvin from Schwaby Bond, uh the Shwabi Bond, which he rides to work every day, which is the only cool thing in New York you can ride like that is the uh is the tram to uh to ro uh what is it called? Roosevelt's island, right? And uh and the reason that's cool is because you can imagine Rucker Hauer and uh and Sylvester Stallone shooting at themselves uh like they did in Cobra, which is an awesome bad movie, right? Everyone likes Rucker Howard, right? You gotta like Rucker Hauer and Sylvester Stallone together, right?
+
+[26:35] No? Yeah. She's nodding her head, not making her vegan face. She's uh doing well. But here's a I specifically was told not to read this whole uh dang uh thing, but I will read this one section.
+
+[26:46] Uh we asked why he was moving to Germany from uh Belfast, and he said, by the way, I'm moving to Germany from Belfast Islands, I have a new job in Germany. It will also be cool to experience a new food culture and for my kids to learn a new language, the beer kicks ass too. That's fair. And here's the interesting part as far as cooking issues is concerned. I'm a formulation scientist.
+
+[27:04] This means I developed the recipes and manufacturing process for new pharmaceutical projects, prodights. Please tap my knowledge for any queries on spray drying, tablet compaction, or the use of cyclodextrins, as I would be pleased to help. Uh well, that's stuff that we're very interested in, right? Yeah. I'm specifically interested in tablet compaction.
+
+[27:24] Like I I've been looking for a while for a good way to uh make uh our own uh mints and whatnot uh in in a kind of a quick fashion. Now there's people on the internet, I think I've mentioned this on this show, uh, who sell basically a little twisty thing that's almost like a pipe with a twist doodle in it, and you could t uh tighten down on that sucker and make like individual uh you know tablets. But you know, if you know of anything, Marvin, that I can get on eBay to bang out tablets that doesn't cost an arm or leg or isn't the size of a small Volkswagen beetle, uh I'd be uh I'd be certainly happy. And also, if you ever know anyone getting rid of a pilot-sized spray drying unit, I would love one. You know who has one?
+
+[28:04] Nathan Miravold, of course. Nathan Mirabold. Hmm. Mirabold. Uh okay.
+
+[28:09] Uh now one other thing, a question it's not on uh, and by the way, we we have to we're ending this show. The reason we I already mentioned the reason why we're gonna so we don't have to mention it again. But we'll mention this show on that show. We'll mention this show on that show? You'll mention I will.
+
+[28:24] Now I tell you what, let's go to one quick commercial break, because we have another like ten minutes before we have to go. So let's go to commercial break, Jack. Maybe we have maybe we have some Jim Croce. I don't know. Do you think you got some Jim Croce?
+
+[28:33] Anyway, you still have uh one last chance to call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128 cooking issues. Little Southside of Chicago is the better's auto town. And if you go down there, you better just be well name or Leroy Brown. Now, Leroy, more in trouble.
+
+[29:05] You see, he's stand about six foot four. All of downtown leaders call the treetop over all the manfires call him so he's bear. Better than old game car. We know they're on the junk yard. Now Leroy, he or gambler, and he like his bouncing cards.
+
+[29:34] He did like his fancy clothes. Something else he liked to do is to uh shine his diamond ring under everybody's nose. You know, do you were aware of that fact? You know, and you know, for those of you that don't know this song, Leroy Brown at the end of the song. Well, the reason he he looks like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone is actually what happens to him at the end of the song.
+
+[29:51] And the reason is he uh Leroy Brown learned a lesson about messing with the wife of a jealous man. It just goes to show you shouldn't mess with anyone's uh, you know, spouse anyway. That's right. Yeah, right? Wow, Jack.
+
+[30:02] Yes. Quick. Yeah. Nice. Nice.
+
+[29:59] All right. So this is actually not uh a writing question, but uh someone from Milk Bar, you know, one of our sister companies, right, uh came and said that at Milk Bar, uh, you know, which is Tozy's Christina Toze's company, which is like infinite infinitely expanding. There's like they they have what, they have one in Brooklyn and like three in Manhattan, right? Right? Anyway, uh said that they had been getting some uh locally produced milk that had not been uh homogenized, right?
+
+[30:37] And the issue they were having with it was uh when they were making cappuccinos, they said the milk is delicious, right? But the non-homogenized milk wasn't foaming properly when they're making cappuccinos. And what did I think? And I said, quite honestly, I don't know. I had no idea.
+
+[30:53] Uh so I looked it up, and in fact it's true that homogenizing increases the ability of cappuccinos to foam. Now, she she had also said to me something strange. She said we tried to heat it, right? Because someone said that if you heat the milk, it's gonna increase its ability to foam. And that went exactly counter to everything that I had learned uh about forming uh milk foams when you're steaming them, which is that you can't really steam milk twice because you've denatured the proteins, right?
+
+[31:23] So then I went to try and research this thing, and it turns out the entire field is completely confused, and it was hard for me to get a straight answer. I was expecting to be able to go to the scientific literature and get a straight answer within like a half hour. But like 45 minutes later reading, I still didn't feel like I had a straight answer. So it's an interesting problem. Here's so UC Davis uh on their milk site, which UC Davis, I usually, you know, I love UC Davis for anything kind of food science related.
+
+[31:49] Uh although dairy, you go to Guelph, you know, the UGW for their website. But basically they say that uh heating uh milk, uh pasteurizing milk, uh homogene everyone says homogenizing makes milk foam better, but they don't really propose a mechanism for why or how. But everyone in the world says that homogenizing milk makes it foam better. So they should go ahead and get a homogenized milk, or we you know what, we can loan them our um our homogenizers, see whether that helps. I mean, it doesn't produce as good a homogenization as ultra, you know, high pressure homogenization, but they could try it.
+
+[32:20] Anyway, I hadn't thought about that loaning them that sucker. Anyways. I was? Yeah, you were like, should we really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[32:27] Huh. For what? It's like you had a premonition. Oh no, that's no, you're talking about my rotor stator homogenizer. I'm talking about the ultrasound one that totally dents your uh hearing and blah do you do use that still bother you, that ultrasonic homogenizer?
+
+[32:39] Remember, it's like it's that like it's like uh everyone like falls on the ground writhing in pain except for me because of the years of uh blasting my ears out with headphones. Anyways, so um homogenization, right? But heating is an interesting question. So when you heat uh milk, like you tend not to denature the uh casein proteins with normal pasteurization, but you do uh denature the whey proteins. Oh, uh I hear I have a call, so I'll get back to this, uh finish up with it.
+
+[33:04] Caller, you're on the air. Right. Uh you know, I heard you last week and you and you were talking about uh you had a deep fryer in your kitchen. And I guess I'd uh I'd never thought about putting a uh a commercial deep fryer in a residential kitchen because uh you know, I I've just been using a Dutch oven because from my understanding, all the uh the uh home use deep fryers suck. Uh so I was wondering if you can you can talk a little bit about the the logistics of using uh because I I thought some of those ran on like uh two twenty if you had to run two twenty in your kitchen or you know all right do you have gas uh I don't you don't have gas come on now uh you don't have gas okay do you live uh in do you do you live in an apartment or in a house?
+
+[33:54] I I live in a house and I have actually wired two twenty before um and there there's two twenty going to the stove but I I don't think it's you know right you should be able then to get an electric fryer. Um certain electric fryers are better than other electric fryers. I mean the here's the key the key to uh why uh I forget what I was saying about it but the key to a commercial fryer why it's so much better there's there's it's a number of things. It's not just the power although the power is huge. One they have a much larger volume of oil in them so you have a a very um you have a good surface to volume ratio, right?
+
+[34:35] So you're not you know it's it's good that way. But the key and the reason why even small commercial tabletop fryers suck is because they don't have a cold zone in them. So if you look at a uh a real a good fryer what you'll notice is the heating element isn't on the bottom of the of the kettle right it's nowhere near it. And in a commercial tube fryer uh you know like a a gas tube fryer the tube is there, you're really only frying in the upper level of the oil, and below it's a big area of unheated stuff. And that area is crucial to the uh to the functioning of the fryer.
+
+[35:13] Because when you're working with a Dutch oven, right, and a Dutch oven, by the way, assuming you have like good power in your stove, is going to be better than a crappy little fryer, which they're just underpowered. You know what I mean? Like there's just no way about around it. They're underpowered, and so the recovery time is very low. And when the recovery time is very low, it takes a uh they typically over ramp, they overheat the oil, and then they go back down low, and so your oil degrades extremely quickly and your products uh you know absorb too much oil and it's never very good.
+
+[35:42] So you're right in assuming that a larger quantity of oil in a Dutch oven over a high powered uh range is going to be better than most home fryers. That's 100% true. Now, in a commercial fryer though, with where you have a cold zone underneath the heating, uh when a when uh stuff comes off of your food, which it inevitably will, right, it sinks to the bottom into a relatively cold zone. So it doesn't scorch, right? And it doesn't impart a nasty burnt flavor to your oil.
+
+[36:10] When you're heating in a home fryer or in a Dutch oven, you'll notice the bottom of your oil has a bunch of brown and black particles, and that over a course of a couple of hours of frying, you'll start tasting burnt and and rancid nasty flavors in your oil, right? Yeah. Yeah. That never happens in a commercial fryer. So a commercial fryer, first of all, never overheats the oil because the heating element typically has a very large surface area, especially in a gas fryer, but also in a well constructed electric fryer.
+
+[36:38] Uh and it has a core a huge amount of power, so it can heat up uh very quickly, but without locally overheating, like you do if you burn the bottom of the pan. And and and two, it has this cold zone. Uh so all in all, you can get so yes, you're using my my fryer holds like six gallons uh of oil, but five and a half uh six gallons of oil, but I can use that five and a half, six gallons of oil for like five uh big fry nights in which I'm frying everything, and every piece of food that comes out of it tastes delicious and isn't oily. Do you know what I mean? And the way I always test I keep my fryer covered when not in use, you know, you strain out the oil, right, to get rid of the particles because they can increase rancidity.
+
+[37:22] And then you put the oil uh back in, you cover it so that you're not getting a lot of oxidation. Uh you know, mine also is covered with a wooden block so it's not getting any light in or anything like that, and it stays great. And you I always uh the day before I know I'm gonna have another fry night, I'll uh put a piece of bread into it. And bread's very good because it soaks up a lot of oil, but is it self-neutral, and you'll be able to taste any sort of rancidity or any sort of uh fat breakdown, whether the oil is going bad on that piece of bread and know whether you need to uh change it out. Uh if you are frying uh you want to fry actually quite a bit each time with something like French fries or potato chips so that absorb a lot of oil, and the reason is is then you can just keep replenishing the uh fat in the fryer, and if you replenish the oil quickly enough, you don't need to throw away the oil.
+
+[38:09] That's a that's the that's how continuous frying works. When they're making potato chips industrially, potato chips are like 50% oil. Uh you know, so they they're soaking up enough oil that the oil never goes bad. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[38:21] Yeah. The other thing is get good ventilation in your house. Do you have the ability to put a decent hood in over your fryer? Hand me that hand. Uh yeah, I can.
+
+[38:29] Yeah. Here's what I did. Uh my current situation, I have an actual residential, uh, an actual residential hour uh sorry, uh commercial hood. Back in the day before I uh had that, I went to Home Depot, I bought two of the crappy little hoods and I bolted them together, like uh I bolted back to back and put them directly over the fryer, and I just sunk it down to very close to the level of the fryer so that uh even though the extraction is crappy, there was nowhere for it to go, and so I was able to get all of the stuff out. And that worked great, except for I eventually melted out a part of the uh of the hood just because it was so close to the fryer.
+
+[39:07] But you can make up for a good hood by putting two crappy hoods together and bolting it low down to the fryer. The disadvantage there is you have a weird ass hood in your space. The other disadvantage is that uh they're loud, those small home hoods are loud. Another thing you can do is put it outside on your porch, like a covered porch, and then just scoot it over away from the porch to fry, but then you're can only do it in fair weather, you know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[39:32] Is that is this helpful at all? Yeah, yeah, very much. Thank you. All right. Cool.
+
+[39:37] Thanks, thanks for uh thanks for calling in. And uh Nastash is now telling me that I'm now late because I gotta go to the splendid table uh interview. But I'll finish up real quick with the milk. So uh uh it turns out I'm gonna have to do more research because uh it is true that all of the milk that we use. Mark Prince, who wrote like kind of the uh on Coffee Geek wrote the primer that everyone uses for uh doing um uh you know latte art style uh foaming, microfoam and milk.
+
+[40:06] Basically, uh his point has always been that when you heat milk, you denature whey proteins, and when they're denatured, they don't foam as well. Although UC Davis says that when you denature some of the whey proteins, it actually foams better. Huh. So who's right? I don't know.
+
+[40:19] And the other thing that's true, think about it, uh, Mark Principhiles, of which I'm one, right? Uh, when you uh use milk, you are always using, almost always, unless you aren't, using pasteurized milk. And the crap foams just fine. So I'm gonna have to do more research. Please, anyone call in with some questions or comments regarding that.
+
+[40:37] And hopefully I hear more about tablet compaction for next week's show. Thank you, and come back next week for cooking a shows. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[41:06] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. You got it all twisted. And the guests can't get it straight.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Robertas in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network dot coming. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back more of uh Roberta's Pizzeria and Book brought to you uh today again, I assume by the Modernist Pantry. Is that correct?
+
+[0:36] That is correct. Uh we'll be reading their printers broke, so I'll be reading it, I guess. Oh yeah? Nice. You're gonna read it with with feeling with gusto.
+
+[0:43] I'll do my best. Yeah? But you do have a caller, I'll find one. All right. So uh anyone else who's waiting, call in two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[0:50] That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight caller, you're on the air. Hi. Hello. Howdy. Sorry, um uh I'm I'm Tammy, I'm calling from Sydney, Australia.
+
+[1:01] Wow. I'm a bit safe right now. Cool. Hello. Um, I did have a couple of questions.
+
+[1:06] One about meat glue. Um, one about infusing truffle flavor, and one about MacGyvering Assouvede. Very good. You're not affiliated with the Today Tonight show, are you? No, no, unfortunately.
+
+[1:21] Um they're the ones in Australia. They're the ones in Australia who had the anti-meat glue thing. You remember that? Did you see that? Um, sorry?
+
+[1:28] Did you see in Australia Today Tonight Show is there they were the the people that had the anti-meat glue telecast. Did you see that back when it aired about a year ago? Weirdly enough, I saw it on your blog rather than on TV. Strange. Um, but what I was watching though was your um science and cooking lecture with Harvard.
+
+[1:47] Um very enjoyable. I now clarify all my liquid using A Gago. Um but uh what I did notice that you said when you were talking about your mokume ghana um fish was that there was a small amount of ammonia produced when you were using meat glue. Correct. And I was wondering about, you know, you said on the primer in your blog that um this dissipates before you eat it.
+
+[2:14] Now, does it dissipate like through cooking? Is it, you know, if you're dealing with raw foods, especially fish, is it really good to, you know, backpack it, take out the backpack and then wait it, or like is there any particular thing going on, or how does that work? That's an excellent question. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, meat glue is an enzyme that we use to bond different proteins together. Uh when it's doing that bonding, uh, a small amount of ammonia is produced in the reaction.
+
+[2:45] Uh and in fact, you can use the reaction as a gauge for how strong your meat glue is by dipping something like raw chicken into the meat glue and smelling it and making sure that you have that aroma, the reaction is taking place. Uh Mokumegane is uh a Japanese uh metalworking technique where uh different layers are laminated together and then sanded flat and have a wood grain kind of appearance. So a number of years ago I did a recipe with fish, different colored fish, they're layered together uh and then uh cut on a slicer so you get a wood grain effect with the fish where the very thin layers are glued together. Uh and that uh that recipe I put some salt and sugar so it's cured, but it's not cooked. And so when I originally did that recipe, I did notice uh the the aroma kind of of the meat glue because it was a very thick block.
+
+[3:31] I had overused the meat glue, and uh and so it was noticeable. And that thing had been in a vacpack all the way up until the time it was sliced. So to remedy that I used much less meat glue, uh this, you know, the subsequent times that I I made that recipe. And I also vaced it to compress it, but then cut it out of the vac pack and let it uh let it sit and all of the uh ammonia dissipate. Ammonia very volatile, right?
+
+[3:57] So it's going to dissipate. Uh you know, in fact there's uh baking powders that are based on ammonia that are used uh specifically for cookies. Uh and yeah and they they bake out over time. But if you put them in something that's super thick, right, or you don't cook it enough they taste horrible because the ammonia is still there. So ammonia is volatile we'll leave especially in a cooked item it's not a problem uh ever really but in the in the fish um I noticed you know that it was a problem.
+
+[4:22] Additionally I I've run tests where if you add a boatload of meat glue to something that's cooked in a bag that's never taken out of the bag that some people can detect something even on a on a long cooked uh braise. But it takes a boatload of uh of meat glue to do that. Cool. Um and then thank you very much. Um and the second question was I heard that truffles are really good in dessert and I really wanted to use the flavor of truffles in chocolate truffles like a joke.
+
+[4:56] Um so I was wondering what the best way maybe to infuse because I know truffles infuse really well into butter but then to make the ganache it's just chocolate and cream, right? So I'm not quite sure what the best way to go around that. You can use butter in a in a ganache instead. I mean I've done plenty of butter ganaches. You just had to find a butter-based uh or you you could infuse directly into the cream if you want to use cream, but I do pl plenty of uh butter-based work.
+
+[5:23] I mean, it uh the textures are gonna uh change so much, but I mean I've I've done plenty of butter, butter, and chocolate um ganaches you can infuse into, or you could fuse directly into the cream. A good way to infuse something like a truffle where it's expensive and you don't want to lose a lot of aroma is to infuse it in a vacuum bag. So that you yeah, right? Just put it in a vacuum bag, suck it, and then basically everything stays contained in there, and you're not gonna be volatilizing a lot of the uh aroma of the truffle. Cool.
+
+[5:53] I didn't think about that. Yeah. If you have access to a vacuum machine. If not, you could use if you if you have access to a vacuum machine. If you don't, you could uh, you know, use a ziploc or something like that.
+
+[6:03] Okay. Um and my third question was about McGubburing a sous-vide machine. So there were discussions I had one really late, really one night, um, with my friends about how expensive so vede machines are and so on and so forth. Um and somebody suggested using uh modifying a deep fryer with a dowel setting and a really high quality tropical fish tank water pump. Right.
+
+[6:31] Uh would you recommend or dish or you know, not recommended, or you know, how how well do you think that would work? Um well fortunately there are tons of people out there that are selling um kits right now for doing basically what you really need is a temperature control. I mean, the the the pump, yes, you can use an aquarium pump. There's any one of a number of pumps you can get in the sub uh $20 range that will um circulate, right? The problem with a deep fryer, a couple problems with a deep fryer.
+
+[7:02] They well it depends. Like I don't know what kind of deep fryers you're you're looking at, but most of the deep fryers that they sell here don't have exposed elements. And if they don't have an exposed element, you're not gonna get very good heat transfer, so you're gonna get a lot uh it's gonna be hard to get uh you know nice steady um steady temperature. Do you know what I mean? You might get some porpoising or it's gonna take a long time to get up and be accurate.
+
+[7:23] Uh if you have something with an exposed element, great, it'll work fine. The problem I have with uh deep fryers or any contained vessel like that is you're really limited in the size of um size of of you know what you can cook. So you know what what you basically need is uh is uh a PID temperature controller. These can now be had for on the order of thirty dollars US, right? Um you're gonna need some sort of uh uh solid state or regular relay.
+
+[7:51] Again, you these now can be got got for like seven bucks. A um uh like a type K thermocouple for temperature measurement, uh waterproof one, that's another seven. So now you're at like uh fourteen, thirty thirty-five, uh a pump for um you know another twenty, now you're at fifty-five, and then um you're gonna need uh the heating element. Now a heating element you could really use anything. There's lots of really cheap immersion heating elements out there.
+
+[8:19] The trick is just not to electrocute yourself. Um I did a project once just for giggles where I, you know, walked up a bunch of stuff that I gotten on eBay and I bought a bunch of uh uh immersion coffee heaters, the really cheap, like you know, three dollar ones you get at uh you know at the local dollar store. And uh it worked. You know, you you want to try to get at least up to about a thousand watts of heating, which is what the you know standard commercial ones do. But um but you know, I stuck my hand into the uh into the water and 'cause there's a lot of leakage current out of those things because they weren't very well constructed.
+
+[8:54] Do you know what I mean? I mean, no one's expecting you to stick yeah, right. No one's expecting you to stick your hand into your cup of coffee. And so they don't care so much that there's a little bit of leakage coming out of the heater, right? But you care very deeply whether you get electrocuted when you're putting your hand into uh a water bath to pull out a uh a piece of food.
+
+[9:12] So that's that's something to look at. But you know, there are tons of I don't know in Australia, but I know here in the US we have a bunch of suppliers, and there's a uh you know, I know that there's suppliers in Australia because I've been thwarted by trying to buy something and found out it was an Australian website. So I know that there's people out there that um that are selling this kind of stuff. So you should be able to get everything all told working for under a hundred dollars. Now, um the other problem then is like trying to get a nice enclosure, and that's where a lot of the DIY projects that are out there are really kind of cool because they find like you know, you know, like with DIY stuff, there was uh there was a rage, I guess it's still a rage, to put everything into an Altoids tin, right?
+
+[9:53] Like projects that could fit in an Altoids tin. So the miracle Yeah, right? So the miracle is finding the cool box to put everything into, and I forget what it was. There's some acrylic box out there that is readily available that works really well with a bunch of off the shelf parts to make a circulator, but I can't remember what that box was. Um but you know, thank God for the internet.
+
+[10:16] Thank you so much, by the way. Hey, yes, I shall go and uh try that. And if uh I got electrocuted, um you'll know about it. All right, super. Thanks for calling in all the way from Australia.
+
+[10:27] So you have three calls. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks very much.
+
+[10:31] Oh, wait, wait, we have another caller? Three who have been waiting. All right, caller. You are on the air. Hey Dave, how are you doing?
+
+[10:37] How are you doing? Pretty pretty pretty good. I'm actually now that you got a call from Australia, I'm calling from Moscow, believe it or not. Wow, this is awesome. This is great.
+
+[10:44] Moscow, welcome. And uh hey, great. Uh actually native New Yorker living in Moscow. And I have a question for you. Um I'm redoing my kitchen, and it's uh basically a a simple equipment question.
+
+[10:55] What do you get? What can I what can I what should I get in terms of uh of a gas burner so I can you know have some um you know enough BTUs to cook in a walk, for example. Or, you know, and of course the last question, and and I'm sure it's be your favorite is the espresso. I need an espresso machine, and what should I get? What's the water like in Moscow?
+
+[11:13] Um it's pretty bad. I use I'm gonna probably be using bottled water. Okay. So I mean uh one of the great joys of having a decent water supply is that you can get a plumbed espresso machine, which is I love instead of having to like constantly dump water in the back. I'm assuming you could probably filter or you know, the the problem then with also with with certain filtering techniques like reverse osmosis on espresso machines, you really don't want RO water for your espresso because it's too pure.
+
+[11:39] You know, it doesn't have enough minerality in it. So if you're working from bottled, you can retrofit a commercial machine to use uh bottled. I don't really know what's available in uh Russia in terms of uh equipment. But I'm uh what what level of espresso machine are you looking at? Yeah, I'm I'm willing to I'm willing to pay for a little bit here, but I I can definitely not do don't have the space to do like a whole pump setup.
+
+[12:01] Right. I mean, um there are lots of uh I mean so the the prosumer units Hello, you still there? Yeah, the prosumer units that are out there. Um I haven't had a lot of experience with them. I have experience with the smallest commercial uh units, which are like the single group guys, and they're fairly compact.
+
+[12:21] I don't know if you have the the space for them, but uh I mean they're good. I only have uh I only have mine's from the you know the 80s or 90s, 90s I guess because I know I don't have the money for a new one. Uh there having had a dual group espresso machine, the single groups aren't as temperature stable. I don't have a lot of experience with the newer uh like for instance one Ken Ken Ingber, our uh listener who's trying to get me to get the Brevo one I ha I don't have experience with that guy yet. I don't know how how good it is.
+
+[12:50] But you you know the things you're gonna be looking for are temperature stability. I mean you might want to go if you're if you're into like tricking stuff out I don't know whether it's still considered pulling a good shot but there are a lot of people have modified Sylvia's in a very small package ranchillios. I'm sure it's been superseded. But uh the espresso geek community uh they've m you know done a lot of modifications on on home machines to get them to pull a really good shot. It's just a little more fidgety than having a pro machine.
+
+[13:14] You know what I mean? Yeah no I mean I I I would do one of those single shot pro machines, you know like a restaurant uh style I might go for that but then I would need a pump, wouldn't I? Well a lot of the they have a lot smaller pumps. The the company that makes most of the pumps for the machines uh you know here is a company called Procon. And the reason the pumps are so big is because uh it's the same size pump uh it can handle literally gallons per minute even though you only need to put out like 60 milliliters over the course of 25 seconds or less really 30 mil you know what I mean?
+
+[13:45] So um so they they throw away a lot of their output and that's one of the ways that they regulate pressure. Procon knows that the pumps are oversized and so they built a much smaller uh pump unit. I don't know whether any of those have made it into the newer uh machines yet because the the big pumps are literally just way overkill in terms of size. They's just unneeded. Yeah the the other style of pump that's used is uh is a a vibrating uh pump.
+
+[14:10] Most of those are made by a company in Europe called Ulka. And uh those basically it's a little solenoid, crack, chak, chak, check, check, chuck, check, and you can hear them, the vibrating pumps, and they just go back and forth. The problem with those is that it's it's thought that their pressure isn't as even as the larger rotary procon pumps, and so some people have a gripe about whether or not it's possible to get the same shot quality with those. I don't have a lot of experience with them. I don't know that the argument that people make that they can't pull as good a shot is good or not, but those pumps are radically smaller.
+
+[14:39] And if if you have a problem with the shot of that, what you can do if they don't already do it, is put something called an accumulator on the back side of the pump, which is basically just a chamber of air. You could probably modify a soda bottle or something to do it, and uh and it'll just even out any sort of vibration by by having like an uh an air, you know, an air cushion there. Uh, right, it makes sense. Yeah. Um so you could go, you could go that way.
+
+[15:01] As far as do you have a Chinatown in Moscow? I've never been to Moscow. No, no, they do not have a Chinatown in Moscow. That's that's one of the things. I mean, I could probably get, you know, if I if I can get something installed, that would be good.
+
+[15:11] I mean, I I do go home quite a bit, so I can always pop down to Chinatown in the city. Yeah, I mean, because it's very simple and very cheap here to get a walk burner. You know what I mean? Like uh a ring, uh basically just a ring of fire that you hook up to uh a gas supply, and then all you'd need is uh an adapter to go to whatever the um common gas plumbing is that you have uh in Russia uh and you'd you'd be good to go. But those like are so cheap.
+
+[15:38] Now you could, I mean, I've never done it. I've never set up a uh a straight up walk burner, but I see them all the time on the streets here in Chinatown. They're just so cheap compared to trying to build that thing yourself. Because you'd have to bend the you bend the black pipe into a circle, drill all the holes, tap them, put all the nozzles in, and then get your gas, uh, you know, your gas supply screwed in. It seems like a big hassle, especially if you're gonna be home anytime soon, probably easier to get it that way.
+
+[16:03] And an adapter can't be that hard to to come by. When you're in the States, if you know what kind of piping they have in Russia, I don't. You could get you could get something McMaster car here probably sells an adapter, a metric pipe to uh to uh you know, a standard uh US pipe ta uh taper probably not that hard to to get stateside and then bring it back again. That'd be the way to go, I think. I mean i I mean if I if I was gonna go for something slightly more commercial like you know they had these you know the five the five burner you know gas uh gas tops right now where you can have the walk thing in the middle.
+
+[16:34] Is there anybody to maybe just buy one of those and try to jack up the BTUs or is it just you know is that just for show? Um well I I haven't I I have to play with one. I mean the the thing about a walk is it uses a preposterously high uh you know um uh number of BTUs per hour it just dumps energy into the walk and that that's how it works. So a lot of the limitations in a particular burner uh have to do with how much gas is actually being supplied to it like how much gas can you supply to it and then can you combust it efficiently so you probably have to um I mean you you might be able to mess around with it like uh drill the orifice out bigger to get a bigger gas supply but then you'd need to figure out a way to get enough air to it and make sure that it's combusting uh efficiently otherwise you're just throwing gas away. You need actual more heat in there.
+
+[17:21] So if you were going you know you know what I'm saying? So you um I mean anything's possible to do I mean I'd have you you use regular natural gas there in Russia, right? Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's pretty it's pretty basic. Yeah.
+
+[17:33] I mean, um you know you can always up the up the b burner side. I mean the good news is I guess you don't need it to throttle down very low because you don't care about low heat outputs with a walk, so you can just have it the thing scream. Uh yeah, I mean if you increase the um the I mean if you increase the orifice, but you just gotta make sure that you have enough ability to to combust it. If you put too much gas through the small uh through uh smaller burners, you know you'll just see the flame jumping out, but you'll see you'll have a big unburned area before it goes out, and you're just basically pumping gas into the air. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[18:06] Right. No, that won't be good for the kids. No, but what you can do is uh if you if you can see if you can look up the size of a regular walk burner, you can get one of these things so it's all nice and finished. Rip out the old burner and throw a new one in. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[18:20] That has the real kind of you know, the fortitude that we you need. And this kind of stuff I've done all the time. Or I've added a couple of extra twenty thousand BTU, like I added a couple extra twenty thousand BTU burners in my salamander underneath so that I could have over and under fired uh salamander one time for a project I was working on. So you can always add more burners with extra knobs on it, and those things will combust great. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[18:42] So like if you have a space that you could drill in and add more heat, as long as you can get it kind of in a basic ring shape, you'd probably be good to go. Yeah, that seems that seems the way to go. Then it won't, you know, it won't be sitting out on the side or something like that taking up space. Bingo. So what uh uh in in terms of other equipment, if you were had you had your go-to equipment and you were gonna you know get something new, I'm happy to go esoteric, but you know, what would you do?
+
+[19:05] Oh, I mean, I mean you need a uh vacuum machine, circulator. I'd love to have uh if you're if you have a like a like infinite amount of gas supply, I mean I've always wanted to have a tandoor in my house, be awesome. You know what I mean? No, no, I I got that at the country house. I was thinking I was I was gonna put it in the ground there.
+
+[19:21] Yeah. Out of the old dacha. That's a that's a great thing for out there, putting it in the ground. Yeah, I mean, uh things uh I mean uh uh I have a Paco Jet variant. I mean I wish I had a real Paco Jet.
+
+[19:32] Uh you know, vacuum machine obviously is awesome. Circulator. You need it. Circulation type of the thing to go for if I was gonna go. Yeah, really good blender.
+
+[19:39] Like a Vitaprep, you know, next time you're in the States, bring one back. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, uh yeah, and and here uh here's a good question. Um, you know, in terms of buying because it's buying equipment is these things are just outrageously expensive here. If I was to buy things, you know, in the city, is there a place to go that you know that that does you know that does two twenty?
+
+[19:56] I need two twenty. Uh I don't, you know, and also poly science will direct drop ship you to the states at 220 unit, and then you could bring it in as a carry uh back, you know, uh without having to worry about it. But I don't know of anyone that does direct direct to the customer sell of 220. I mean, you could deal with the JB Prince or something like that, and they could probably special order it from you, but PolyScience would uh on a circulator would probably do that and Vitaprep. I mean, the thing that's killing you is the taxes and the importing.
+
+[20:31] You know what I mean? It's not the item itself. The Vitaprep knows how to make a 220 Vitapep. You know what I mean? Uh because I spoke to them about it.
+
+[20:38] And um, you know, same with poly science. I mean, that their stuff is you know, it's pretty simple uh for them. It doesn't cost them more to make a two twenty unit. Yeah, but by it's by its stateside, it shouldn't be that much of a price penalty here, maybe only like ten percent instead of two hundred or a hundred percent. Hey Dave, we got a few more callers on the line.
+
+[21:01] Oh, all right. That's cool. All right, David, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Can't wait to try the bar.
+
+[21:06] Alright, thanks so much. Right, bye. Hey, caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hello.
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+[21:13] All right, yeah, babe. I have finally acquired a circulator after putting that off for half a forever. And I'm getting ready to drop a leg of lamb in it, or at least Hello? Oops. Hello?
+
+[21:27] Phone is doing very weird things. That's alright. I still got you. Okay. So first and simplest question.
+
+[21:34] If I'm doing a cashmere type leg of lamb in the circulator, can I put yogurt on it before it goes in the bag? Or is the does that go wrong in some impressive way? All right. So you can um I have done kind of buttermilk. I haven't done yogurt in the bag.
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+[21:50] I've done buttermilk. I mean, you're gonna get some um it's already curdled, so you know, how's it gonna curdle some more, right? I mean, but you might it might break, the sauce might break. Uh, but you know, the the main thing that you're gonna want to so when you're adding yogurt to something, and I have much more experience not with uh lamb but with chicken, like if you're gonna do like a uh chicken tikka, for instance. Um you know the the yogurt is but the acidity is basically there to uh tenderize.
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+[22:18] And so you're looking at kind of uh a tenderizing effect that they have. And I I some people love the texture of um and let's go back to buttermilk because I have the most experience with it. Buttermilk uh poaching in a bag. The problem with it is, especially on a very, very long cooking time, is that uh the meat can tend to uh mushiness, especially because you're not gonna overcook it when you're using a water bath. Does this make sense?
+
+[22:46] Yes. Yeah. So you're gonna want to guard against uh mushiness in the meat on long cook times with with uh with acids in the bag. That said, you can have really, really spectacular, very soft uh meat results that some people really really like. It's just it's a question of whether for you personally it tends to get to the mushy side.
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+[23:09] All right, and and the uh you have do you have any guidelines on like at what point it's likely to really start going soft? Um 24 hours, 48 hours. Yeah, 24 look on a leg of lamb, uh okay. So I mean the the inherent problem with a leg of lamb is that the leg has so many different muscles that all want to be treated differently. This is why leg of lamb is very difficult um piece of meat to have it all come together um at the same time.
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+[23:36] If you cook uh a leg of lamb for uh 24 hours, there will be some muscles in the leg of lamb that are delicious, the ones that have more collagen in them, right? And then uh and more connective tissue in general. Uh and then there are other muscles, ones that in the leg of lamb that are good with a very quick grill, let's say, those ones are going to taste uh fibry if they're cooked for 24 hours. That said, sauce can make up uh for a lot. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:07] And so it it's it's a question of of what you're gonna try and and shoot for. I mean, look look, in the end, your result is probably gonna be better than uh what most people can attain anyway. But what you should start doing when you get the circulating you start playing with it like you're doing is really focusing on kind of the um minutia of what the textual differences are when you cook a piece of uh meat that long. If you have the time, which you know, I don't know whether anyone does. I mean not now, but ever later, get like a the same piece of meat, put it in five bags, and then cook it for cook eat you know, cook each one, drop one in that you know, put one in, then you know, eight hours later put another in.
+
+[24:46] And so you can get a feeling for what a couple of hours here or there can do when you're cooking a piece of meat over over a long period of time. And it's really worth the experiment to do it. Do you know what I mean? It is. Yeah.
+
+[25:00] On a related question, um very closely related, some portion of the chicken that I get in the Costco multi packs. Right. Turns out to be absolute rubber. A particular particular piece of the chicken? Yes.
+
+[25:17] I mean like you know I don't know if you're a cocktail shopper or not, but you know they they sell six still um six vacu pouches of of raw chicken breasts and out of a each vacuum pouch has two breasts so you're buying twelve breasts in one you know in in one package. Right. And like on some random basis some number of those are like seven times tougher than others. That's bizarre. And uh presumably they're all being cooked in a similar fashion and you you repeated this enough such that it's not just uh like you know one got cooked uh improperly or something like that.
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+[26:00] You I I've had this problem at least five or ten times. That's very odd. Is it substantially different size the one that's tougher? Uh they may be bigger. I mean it's it's one of those um it's it it's tricky to tell because I usually split them widthwise so um like when I'm grilling them hot that I can get the inside and the outside done at the same time.
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+[26:23] Let me ask you this does it taste better? Well, the texture is so funky you almost don't get to the taste if that makes any sense. Yeah. And you bite it and it's just wrong. Really yeah, because you know, older birds are radically, radically tougher, but I doubt they would sift some older birds in with the regular younger because it doesn't make economic sense for them to do so.
+
+[26:43] But older birds typically will taste much more like chicken. You know, like I went, um, you know, if you go abroad to a place that slaughters their chickens much older, they're all much tougher, and so they can be hard for us to eat because we're used to a tender chicken, and yet the flavor of chicken in them is is greater. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. And and and that's why a lot of old French recipes work lousy with American chickens.
+
+[27:03] Right, exactly. And and you know, why our soups are so bland, you know what I mean, compared to like because you get a real stewing hen, you know, then you get a lot of flavor out of one of those things, but you know, they're kind of tough as nails to chew on. Uh, but I wonder whether it could be an age thing. Um I mean, it's possible that it's uh I mean, ca Costco, I'm sure Costco is like, you know, getting regular factory farm uh chickens and that they're not gonna be there's not a lot of variance, you know. This is the basic I mean it's foster farmed chicken.
+
+[27:31] Right, right. And you know, there's probably not a lot of variance in in age or or and I wonder whether it could be uh like a pH thing, like a slaughter pH thing. I haven't done enough uh research on tenderness in chicken versus uh slaughter stress, for instance, um to to know uh kind of what happens. I mean, there's a lot of research obviously on slaughter stress and uh excessively soft, drippy meat for pork, right? But um but uh I don't really know of anything on chicken.
+
+[28:00] That's interesting. I'm gonna hopefully maybe someone's listening that has had this experience and has done some research. Uh I would be very curious if anybody has an opinion, because I mean it's it's it it's you know, if you put you think you need six breasts for however many people you're feeding, and then four of them come out just two of them come out really funky, it really just sort of scrambles your plan. Weird. Yeah, hopefully someone will uh call or write in with uh an explanation because I'm curious.
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+[28:25] We don't have a Costco here in New York, so I don't I can't go test it myself. That's that's actually terrible because other than this little problem, they're they're really nice. Um and then uh one more question back to the lamb. Um I got a little package of TPA of uh TPA from um of meat glue from uh your friends at uh uh your sponsors uh that I haven't even opened yet. Right.
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+[28:53] When I do this leg of lamb, can I TPA it back into its um shape after I sear it? So could I see open it up, sear it, and then bow it up with TPA? Sear it sear the inside with meat glue? Yeah. Uh with transcutaminase.
+
+[29:10] Uh sear the inside. It's interesting. You you can, you're not gonna get as strong of a bond, right? And the meat isn't going to, unless you put like a lot of force on it with plastic wrap or a vacuum machine, it's gonna be hard to get it to conform properly. Does that make sense?
+
+[29:27] But it does. It can be done. Uh you know, cooked meat will glue, just not as strongly. All right. So I can I can I can roll it back up and actually uh get it to at least sort of stay.
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+[29:39] Yeah, and remember to uh uh tightly seal the meat glue and put it back in the freezer to store it after it's open. Okay, and so I did not notice what it didn't freeze it, though. That's very helpful. All right. All right, thank you very much.
+
+[29:53] Uh, thank you very much. Thanks for calling in. You welcome back. All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, it's Mike from Denver, Colorado.
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+[29:59] Hey, doing all right. How you doing? Good. Well, uh, my question is it's kind of twofold. We make a lot of half-hazard pickles at home.
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+[30:11] Kind of like throw cabbage in, sprinkle salt, cabbage salt. Right? And uh you know, I'm curious if there's a bulletproof because some of these we stick in the back of the fridge and you know, you figure them out a month later, you taste them, they're a little funky, you know, but you know, who knows whether it's actually safe. You know is there a I've heard of a five percent salt solution. It's generally safe.
+
+[30:35] Uh you know, and beyond that, you know, if you do a kimchi or something like that, will it actually keep indefinitely? Uh you keep it for a year in there. Oh, that's a good question. I mean, uh indefinitely is a long time. I mean, the the these things tend to um reach a peak and then can be kept for a long time afterwards without them becoming unsafe.
+
+[30:59] The question is, do they taste as good to you? Do you know what I mean? So so basically, you know, what you're trying to do is get the salt level, and I don't have it at the at the tip of my tongue because I always just kind of go and look it up when the when the time comes. Is it's you know fairly easy to calculate roughly the um the salt level uh that you need based on for instance the weight of cabbage that you have, right? And then uh pack the stuff together as long as it stays submerged, right, so that you're not exposed to a uh a lot of air, uh, and the salt level is high enough, and then when the lacto uh lactic acid bacteria start growing in there, you're going to have enough uh it's the combination of the acidity and the salt that prevents nasty crap from growing in there uh over time.
+
+[31:43] And it'll stay basically, yeah you could keep it a year. Uh you know the question is is it going to taste as good after that uh year is up. Now I like to rather than having to submerge things, I'll do a lot of vac pack, not to do a quick pickle but a vac pack to do something like a kimchi. Uh then you can see the bags inflate with carbon dioxide. It's great.
+
+[32:01] And then you know you don't have to worry about air getting to them ever because they're in a sealed bag. But that's not necessarily uh viable for home, which is why they people tell you to weight the stuff down uh or you know put a plastic bag with water on top in it to wait wait weight the guy down. Um but uh you know and another thing you could do to if if you're having problems with funkiness, I mean th a lot of the issues it sounds like you're using a wa you know wild uh you know whatever happens to be around your kitchen is what you're inoculating the um the product with you were well I like a I like a funky pickle. That's how I kinda why I'm curious about it, you know funky pickle I like that. But if you in other words but if you want something like that's consistent then you can just save some of your pickling liquid from your old batch, right?
+
+[32:46] And then after you mix in the salt and stuff slop in. I mean so like I have a brand of sauerkraut that I like, right? And so a lot of times I'll cheat because I know I like that brand of sauerkraut and when I'm working on something I'll save that sauerkraut juice and I'll dump that in along with the salt to my cabbage to kick start the uh you know the particular uh cultures that those guys use I happen to like it. So if you get a result that you happen to like then you can back slop it into your next batch and you're guaranteed to get that same kind of a uh a funkiness assuming that you don't get a contamination it's a robust enough starter culture so you can get it going. But in other words that same thing that that they do with with the sourdough you could do with a pickle in terms of starter culture like that.
+
+[33:27] Oh okay. And are you putting in uh salt via the raw weight of the cabbage and not the water? Uh yeah I mean like you know a lot of the old recipes that you don't even add water to them. You know, they just kind of will will liquid out over the course of the first you know day or so and then uh and then you can press them. Or yeah I mean you you want that when you're calculating salt levels uh for uh to prevent microbial spoilage right um you you're you're calculating on the final weight of total product and then what percentage salt is that right not the percentage of the brine uh because you know imagine if you had even the most concentrated brine that you could possibly do in the 30s percent right and then you were to put that you know teaspoon of that into a ton of cabbage you haven't added any salt right so it's always best to calculate uh salt on weight of total product water plus cabbage and that way you know exactly where you are and you're never going to go over and you're never going to go under you know I like my you know I like salty stuff so the stuff that I do is probably always pretty safe and you can get a feeling if it becomes acidic also remember the acidity is helping you and you're gonna have to have a lower salt requirement if your acidity level is high enough.
+
+[34:42] You know it's it's a it's a it's a multiple thing. If there's no acidity you need a much higher salt concentration. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah.
+
+[34:51] Is there a is there a good reference for that I'm sure I'm sure there is I don't like again I don't have it off the off the tip of my tongue, but uh, you know, I like any one of the agricultural extensions in the in the universities, they put out uh a lot of good pickling advice and s and they'll usually give you both a salt level concentration and a pH uh concentration uh you that you can deal with. Uh I don't have like a website I can send it to right away, but you know the it's it's out there, and usually the ag extension guys are very conservative, so you don't have to worry about it. They're not pushing the envelope of what's safe because otherwise they'd be in big, big trouble. And so their information is usually reliable. Cool.
+
+[35:33] I'll look into it. All right, thanks so much. All right, thanks a lot. All righty. So should we take a uh break or do we have another caller?
+
+[35:40] Uh no, but that's we're almost at the end here. And I have to read this because today's show has been brought to you by the Modernist Pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has the solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[36:08] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries unflavored popping candy, aka pop rocks.
+
+[36:27] Pop rocks. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of these exploding delights to play with. Simply use the promo code CI74 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com. Pop rocks. Hey, so uh can I can I have a couple minutes, Jack, or are we uh we're rushing out of here?
+
+[36:47] We've got like five minutes, maybe. Alright, cool. So uh met one of the guys who was on the initial development team of Pop Rocks at one of the classes I taught, and uh, you know, Mikey didn't explode, that didn't happen. But uh the way pop rocks are made is that uh uh uh CO2 is put under very high pressure in the molten sugar. The sugar sets, uh, then they release the pressure, it explodes into little pop rocks thing, and inside of those uh frozen those uh sugar granules are residual high pressure CO2, and that's what gives Pop Rocks its uh its thingamajig.
+
+[37:14] And although Mikey didn't explode, he did say that they put a whole load of pop rocks into a truck that developed a leak in transport, and it did kind of blow the side out of the truck. Don't know if it's true, but that's what he said. All right. So let me rip through the email question so that no one can say that I didn't pay attention to my email uh people. Um Elliot Papineau, who we uh spoke about uh his knife work, uh knife sharpening the other day, ordered a walk-in horse strop, followed our recommendations and bought a strop, see whether it's nice.
+
+[37:40] His strop, Nastasha, made out of horsebutt. Horsebutt. Horsebutt. Uh also got a uh a shout out from um Dan Main in the UK, who works for uh DoveBid, which is a company that uh I've always seen, but I've never ordered. Makes me more nervous to order off of like a real auction site than it does to order off of eBay.
+
+[38:00] But he sent us some links to uh a tablet press, which I desperately want a tablet press. If anyone wants to lend us a tablet press, uh he can do it. But uh check out DoveBid for all of your uh for all of your biopharma needs, uh, which again we have them, which I don't really understand why we all have so many, but we do. Uh also Tom Fisher and Lansdown Pierre said uh he really uh loves what we're doing, and he realized last week when we were answering our questions that he loves what we're doing, and that the amount of knowledge we squeeze into a 45 minute show is incredible. Well, thank you.
+
+[38:28] Thank you very much. Uh and he's basically says uh he was going in the way back machine to last year when Nastasha was against her best judgment trying to make a pie crust with Crisco, and I said that lard is the only fat to use in such situations. Can lard be used in place of vegetable shortening in any recipe calling for vegetable shortening? Are there certain dishes where vegetable shortening is needed? And is it a one-to-one substitution by weight?
+
+[38:50] The difference in uh vegetable shortening and lard is that um lard is typically a lot softer than vegetable shortening. So it's more difficult to work, and you're gonna be in certain situations where you need the hardness of a crisco, uh, otherwise your product becomes completely unworkable. That's why I tend to work very cold when I work with lard. Also, if you're using natural lard uh that's rendered out, it has like a liquid and a solid portion, it's much harder to use, but tastes much better than uh hydrogenated lard. Hydrogenated lard, the one you buy armor in the store, armor brand hydrogenated lard, is uh still more plastic than Crisco, more s softer rather than Crisco, but uh much harder than real honest to God lard.
+
+[39:32] But yes, uh one-to-one substitution uh is is best. And lard in biscuits is fantastic. Uh lard in uh I've never tried lard in in uh in a cookie instead of butter, because I use butter in a cookie. But anyway, yes, you can use lard. And referring back to my question last week about extracting fruit juice with a centrifuge, I noticed most brew supply companies sell peptic enzyme pectic enzymes.
+
+[39:52] Wikipedia seems to be saying that it's uh used for the same person as pect uh same purposes as Pectinx Ultra SPL, breaking down pectin when making fruit juices. Can this be used in place of or to complement ultra SPL or am I barking up the wrong tree? Well, there's similar enzymes, but all the different uh pectinase enzymes that you can buy have different kinds of activities. Um and so even nolozymes, the people who make pectinex ultra SPL uh have a range of different ones that have different kinds of properties and different kinds of activities. We use Ultra SPL because that's kind of like the most kind of shotgun one they have.
+
+[40:25] It doesn't just take out uh pectin, it takes out hemicellulose and a bunch of other stuff. So any of these enzyme concoctions are kind of multiple uh enzyme brews that have various effects. Uh and I use that one because it's it works over a wide range of pH on a wide range of substrates. Uh you might be able to find one at a home brew that it works really well. I'm not uh I'm not sure.
+
+[40:48] Uh you know, you're not barking up the wrong tree. It's just, you know, we have a lot of experience with Pectanex Ultra SPL, and so I tend to go to that one, and it's not that expensive for us to use because we buy it in bulk. Make sense? Mm-hmm. Makes sense.
+
+[41:00] All right. Uh last in from Alvin uh Alvin uh J. Uh Schultz in Houston, uh, who apparently was on uh Top Chef uh something. I saw him, I looked him up. It was on Top Chef something.
+
+[41:11] Anyway, uh thanks for all the info you share with me via cooking issues. Also, congrats on Booker and Dax. I sent a bartender friend of mine in there this week and he was blown away. I hope to stop by during the uh international chef conference this year myself. Please do.
+
+[41:21] I have some questions about shopping for my first rotor vap. Because of my limited funding, I'm stuck with hunting through eBay ads. Anything I should be aware of in eBay auctions for rotov apps. How do I properly clean one that may have been used in a lab? Do rotovaps generate leak over time via worn seals, etc.
+
+[41:35] And what is the cost to restore one that may have such problems? I know Dave likes the cold finger style condenser. Does he just run those with a dry ice alcohol mix? Uh I also have uh liquid nitrogen in my home kitchen, 30 liter. Nice, huh?
+
+[41:47] Liquid nitrogen in home kitchen? Nice. Uh would it be better to use that for condensing? How long will a cold finger fill with lit uh nitrogen before it uh last before it boils off? And lastly, I see many auctions like this and substitute in some uh you know, kind of off brand rotary evaporator.
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+[42:01] For a rotovap uh under a thousand bucks on eBay. What's the catch with this seemingly Asian manufactured rotary evaporator? Thanks for your help. Uh also I've ordered from your sponsors at modernistpantry.com, and they're great, extremely fast shipping and nice usable packaging. Just wish they'd give a bigger discount for buying by the pound.
+
+[42:16] All right. Well, I'd stay away from that crappy uh, you know, uh roto vap that's really cheap uh because I've used even name brand rotor vaps that aren't the good ones in the past, and they're leaky and they stink. And if you have a leaky rotor vap, it's gonna be very hard to get a good flavor in it. And yes, they do tend to leak over time in their seals. New rotary seals, it costs about 50 bucks to buy.
+
+[42:39] You just want to get everything clean and make sure that the thing doesn't leak. If the glassware is etched so that it can't form a good seal, like it's scraped too much and etched, you're gonna have a problem. But most of those problems with leaks can be fixed. But a leaky roto vap is the first reason why you're gonna lose flavor in a rotovap. I do favor a cold finger condenser, but liquid nitrogen get eat gets eaten at a ferocious rate in a it's so a man every liter that you distill is gonna take probably seven, eight liters of liquid nitrogen in a cold finger condenser.
+
+[43:07] So you're gonna be tearing through that 30-liter doer. That said, that's a really good way to do it. Dry ice is gonna last you a lot longer. I don't use dry ice because it's hard for me to get dry ice in New York City. I have to take a cab and go to a place and then pick it up and then come back, blah, blah, blah, because I don't own a car, etc.
+
+[43:23] etc. So if you're in Houston, you own a car uh and you have access, I would use dry ice in a cold finger because it's gonna last a lot longer. Uh and I would you can get one on eBay. That's how I got my first one. And um you can fix most leaks.
+
+[43:38] You want to make sure that nothing nasty went through it. You're gonna want to clean it with a vi with like you know, Alcanox or some really hardcore glass detergent, bleach the hell out of it, even though it's probably more of a uh just a poison in it than a bio biohazard. It's probably gonna be more of a poison issue. But just clean the ever loving hell out of that son of a gun because I don't want you to be sucking in a bunch of carbon tetrachloride or crazy poison stuff. Poison cooking issues.
+
+[44:05] Oh you dead rat. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information.
+
+[44:32] Thanks for listening. Got me.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere.
+
+[0:27] Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first step father. Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone.
+
+[0:41] Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com.
+
+[1:02] Broadcasting live from Robert is in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, answering all of your cooking related questions, technical or not. Call your questions in to 718497-2128.
+
+[1:38] That's 718497-2128. As usual, joined in the studio here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you? I didn't. Nice.
+
+[1:45] That's really nice. Nice. Nice. That's just because she beat you here. Yeah.
+
+[1:50] I was like, Mark, we do have time to shave the back of your neck. Oh, that's what's happening. Now you all know something about Mark Ladner, like that. No, don't say. Alright, now, uh also, uh, howdy jack and the rest.
+
+[2:04] You like that? We got a quote like that last week. But I want everyone to know that uh was it two days ago on Sunday, Nastasha, the hammer, had dinner with none other than Dr. Ruth. Right?
+
+[2:19] I found out that she is an excellent sniper. You mean like sh like eBay sniping or killing people? Killing people. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[2:26] So it's like all about the good sex, and if the sex isn't good, take you out from long range without you knowing. Wait, what? Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait.
+
+[2:33] You gotta talk more about this. First of all, she's 90 years old, folks, right? Yeah. And then her parents were uh, you know, died in the concentration camp. She was taken to an orphanage in Switzerland, and then for some reason she learned how to be a sniper.
+
+[2:47] After the war or during the war? During the war. Wow. Yeah. So like that little smile means that she will she will shoot you straight between the damned eyes.
+
+[2:56] Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I had no is this not is this commonly known, Dr. Ruth information?
+
+[3:02] No, I don't know how it came up. Well, with Nastasha in the house, you know, murder and sniping is gonna come up eventually. That's crazy stuff. Yeah. Wow.
+
+[3:13] That's impressive. That that certainly overshadows what I did this weekend. I went to the Sean Casey Animal Shelter in Brooklyn because we were looking to get a pet. Oh wow. Finally.
+
+[3:22] Well, Booker wanted a cat, of course, but we can't have cats because uh, you know, my sister-in-law is uh deadly allergic to them. And uh Jen doesn't want a dog. Oh, so you're getting an iguana. No, but the snakes, I mean, what are you gonna do with the snake? I was like, hey kids, you gotta feed the snake whole defrosted mice.
+
+[3:38] You have to purchase packages of like uh frozen whole mice. Wow that are they're frozen in kind of a uh suppository shape so that the snakes can just swallow those suckers without choking. You thaw them out, you thaw out this dead mouse, you throw it in the cage. I thought you were supposed to give him a live one. Uh well I mean I guess you could, but it's probably safer for the snake and kind of less traumatic for the kids if you throw in a frozen anyway, whatever.
+
+[4:02] I want a bird now. Not the things I want a bird. You know they have 20 pound turtles there? 20 pounds tortoise. Yeah, if they won't they won't give you the tortoise.
+
+[4:10] The tortoise they don't want to encourage people to own tortoises. Oh. This is a rescue only. Anyway. Uh okay.
+
+[4:18] Uh questions coming in. Uh hi, thanks for the brilliant show. Well, I don't know about that, but uh, thank you for enjoying it. Uh it's informative and hilarious and the absolute high point of my week. I've recently become chef of a medium-sized fine dining restaurant in Bergen.
+
+[4:30] Uh and I can't pronounce it with soot and salt, but but this isn't Bergen County, New Jersey. This is Bergen, Norway. Cool. Yeah, yeah, very cool. Nothing wrong with Bergen County.
+
+[4:40] Well. Stasi's got her jersey face on now. Actually, I'm gonna go to Jersey next weekend, rock and mineral show. The young one wants to go to a rock and mineral show in Jersey. Cool.
+
+[4:48] Did you know that New Jersey is one of the mineral capitals of the world? Yeah, I went there as a kid too. It's awesome. Yeah, right? It's cool, right?
+
+[4:54] Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, see? See? Minerals. Okay.
+
+[4:57] Uh, where was I? Oh, yes. Uh somehow I got uh somehow I got drawn off track. Can you believe that, Nastasha? Uh and my so did my iPad.
+
+[5:06] Okay. We normally cook our fish wrapped in cling film. That's plastic wrap for all you guys out there. Uh, in the rationale combi oven with a fairly high delta T. Uh, meaning, if you don't know what we're talking about, it means that he's trying to cook it to uh a particular temperature, uh, let's say in the uh in the like 50 or somewhere Celsius in the middle or below, and then uh using a much higher temperature, like 60 or something Celsius, uh to cook it in, uh, which is actually a standard way of cooking, but in low temperature we talk about delta T's, we're talking about very specific uh differences in temperature between the cooking medium and uh what we're cooking.
+
+[5:39] Anyway, uh okay, with a fairly high delta T, usually 65 degrees centigrade for a core temperature of 39 to 42, which is I don't know what that is, but it's something like a hundred and see 42 is something like a hundred and three or something like that. It's the Fahrenheit. It's very low, very low. This is on the very, very low scale of uh cooking. In fact, most a lot of people wouldn't call it cooking, we call it warming.
+
+[6:03] There's like a lot of debate and contention about whether or not this is uh I mean I like it, but like this hyper low temperature fish anyway, let me get finished with with the question. Uh this yields a delicious fish in about five to seven minutes, but also a grossly overcooked and ugly exterior. Uh and what I'm assuming is happening is the outside is overcooked because 65 degrees is uh is high. And uh secondly, uh when you're cooking uh low temp in these temperature ranges, right, where you're not getting any seared uh or any sort of browning on the outside, you get uh white proteins that come out of uh basically solution or are drawn out and coagulate and look like little specks of almost egg white on the surface of the fish, and they look gross. Anyway, um okay.
+
+[6:42] So last night during service, we tried steaming the fish, but not really steaming, steaming is a misnomer. He had it in the combi oven with 100% humidity at 45 degrees centigrade to a core temperature of 42 centigrade, and it was awesome, stunning. The taste was almost raw, and the texture was almost flaky and completely transparent. It took uh we we cooked it almost 45 minutes. So my problem is, is this safe?
+
+[7:04] I always say to my customers that all the fish and seafood we serve are unpasteurized and/or raw, but is the additional 45 minutes in the danger zone okay? We use very fresh fish, usually in rigor. We dry salt it uh for 20 minutes beforehand. Uh and thanks, and please say hi to the guys out in Blue Hill Stone Barnes. So hello, Blue Hill Stone Barnes from uh Eric in Bergen, Norway.
+
+[7:24] Um okay. So my feel uh also he sent a follow-up email and he said 45 minutes was not the time needed to get the fish to the core temperature. It was an experiment to see if we could drop the fish in the combi as soon as we got the order in from a customer, but presumably it's a tasting plate, so it comes in early, uh, right? And if it would still be good after that amount of time. I now think it would be better to drop the fish when we have sent all the amounts to the to the table.
+
+[7:44] That would probably bring the cooking time down to 20 or 30 minutes. Uh we have a vacuum machine, uh vacuum packer, circulators, and so that's an option instead of putting heating in the combi oven, is heat transfer much quicker in a vacuum bag than in a combi. We feel cooking fish in a bag is good, but the look and texture suffers ever so slightly uh because their machine is small and they use an analog pressure meter, etc. etc. So they can never be very accurate with how much vacuum.
+
+[8:06] Uh it was also additional work. Okay, look. Let's knock these out in reverse order. One, I don't feel you have a need to vacuum the fish in a vacuum bag uh unless you are uh I mean most of us don't have a combi oven, right? And so vacing fish in a bag is the only way, or ziplocking a fish in a bag really is the only way we can uh do low temperature work with fish, right?
+
+[8:29] If you have a combi oven or if you have a uh uh man, the word just went right out of my head. If you have a combi oven or if you have a CVAP, you can do low temperature without it, and in many ways uh it's superior because uh a bag does a couple things. One, it tends to deform the portion slightly, right? Unless you're very good at vacuuming it or you put a lot of oil into it. Uh and two, if you suck a vacuum on fish uh and cook under a vacuum, I find that the texture is affected.
+
+[8:55] One of the things we do in the low temperature sous-vide class uh that I teach is um we serve a variety of the same fish in a sir at a variety of different vacuum levels cooked, and everyone, everyone can tell the difference in the higher vac fish. And also no one really likes usually the the super higher vac fish and also even some of the medium vac ones are weird. Ziplocks are usually pretty damn good because they don't have any sort of vacuum effect, but they allow you to cook low temperature and go on cooking issues, which yes, yes, I know I haven't written for in a long time. Uh and uh you you'll see step-by-step instructions on how to put uh fish in a Ziploc bag. Um But it is more work.
+
+[9:31] The other advantage of vacuum is you can infuse flavors uh if you do it, but you're not gonna hold these fish for a long time. Uh secondly, uh if you're telling people this stuff is raw and unpasteurized, uh, yeah, that's good. That's a good first step. I would not cook these things at that temperature for 45 minutes because you're incubating uh bacteria at that temperature. Um I think your 20 minute window is a lot uh safer, a lot, lot safer.
+
+[9:57] Um also 45 minutes, it might not be a problem with ling. I don't have a lot of experience with ling. Uh um, but uh some of your fatty fattier fishes uh will have enzymes in them that continue to break the fish down over time, and so a 45 minute fish will get mushy, even if uh it doesn't get uh microbially spoiled, it will get mushy. Uh I don't know specifically that when you when you put back when you put a piece of fish into the danger zone, uh the bacteria doesn't start growing immediately. There's a uh a lag time before the bacteria start growing, and then it goes into a log rate where it's growing uh at you know ferocious rates.
+
+[10:32] But the problem is I don't know exactly how long it's gonna take to get into the log rate uh of cooking, but your zone is right in the log area of growth where it's gonna grow at a ferocious rate. Then you have the problem if it goes out and you don't know how fast it was uh it was being served. I would feel completely comfortable with a fish that you tell people uh is basically raw, uncooked, unpasteurized, etc. Uh, with a 20 minute, with a 10 to 20 minute cook time and out if they were going to eat it right away and you never had the opportunity of trying to re-chill it again and serve it if anything happened. That I'd feel comfortable with 45 minutes, I'd start to feel a little bit um uncomfortable.
+
+[11:06] I mean, you know, again, you're probably not gonna do anything, but who knows. Also, certain fish can develop at these low temperatures uh histamines. Um I don't know which ones they are, but this is what Bruno Gusot tells me. I've never done the research because I kind of was looking at him cross-eyed when he was telling me because I he just hates this texture of fish. I mean, the real problem is is that also is that at these super low temperatures people, if you've never had these things, right?
+
+[11:26] Like this super super low temperature fish that we're talking about was one of the reasons why a lot of chefs in America, like Wiley Dufrein, my brother-in-law got into sous vide and low temperature in the first place is to get these hyper low textures of fish. They look amazing. They look like like almost like uh like candy, like jelly, like s like sometimes like it's almost like a like a vacuum-infused watermelon, like f like if it's like something like a like a salmon. So they look amazing. Like uh and the texture is uh we usually describe as kind of fudgy and dense.
+
+[11:56] Uh there's a particular temperature window right around there where the intense fishiness of raw fish goes away and yet it doesn't have the texture of cooked fish, and it's awesome. I really like it. A good fifty percent of the customers here in in New York don't like that texture. And so a lot of people have kind of moved away um from that kind of cooking here in the States. But yet uh it is a virtuoso thing to do.
+
+[12:17] Uh did I actually did I answer the question? I can't even remember. I did. And we just got an email from Matthew Leaf that says, Hey Nastasia, the way I remember it is that Dr. Ruth became a sniper for Israel after the war.
+
+[12:29] Oh, after the war of the war. Nice. I'm still trying to imagine this like what I've always known as kind of a sweet older woman sniping people. Yes. You know?
+
+[12:38] Like a little gun to the head sniping issue thing. Anyway, hmm. Uh all right, so you want to go to a first commercial break and come back? Sure. All right, let's go to our first commercial break.
+
+[12:46] Call your questions. 27184972128, that's 7184972128 cooking issues. That is Fay Lakuti Zombie. Zombie. Are you gonna like are you gonna like put that in with like cranberry zombie, like like opposite zombie?
+
+[14:07] Zombie opposites. No. So you know, speaking of zombie, my son is obsessed with this game, Zombie Highway. Have you played that game? Sounds awesome, though.
+
+[14:13] Yeah. Yeah. He was he was uh yeah, anyway, I won't get into it. Okay. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook.
+
+[14:21] Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Do you hate that, Nastasha? I do. Yeah. Modernist Pantry has a solution.
+
+[14:30] They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you.
+
+[14:49] With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries propylene glycolginate. PGA for short, which is derived from brown algae. Well, it's basically derived from alginate from anyway. Uh from brown algae and can be used to stabilize emulsions and thicken liquids.
+
+[15:06] It is particularly useful in creating what the heck are you opening over there? It's like it's like the sound effects thing. She like holds her zipper pocket right next to the uh microphone and goes it's crazy. Anyway, uh, where was I? Uh stabilize emulsions and thicken liquids.
+
+[15:20] It is particularly useful in creating a clean and creamy mouthfeel in beverages. Fans that's a gross thing to say, right? Nastash is giving her clean and creamy look. Uh fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of PGA to play with.
+
+[15:36] Simply use the promo code CI75 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Alright. So PGA is one of the only uh PGA is one of the only uh ingredients that we use, along with methyl cell, methyl cellulose, that uh is not uh natural that we personally, I mean, use. And uh it's derived from um alginate and it's used as a thickener and especially in beverages.
+
+[16:06] It's been phased out recently because of label declaration problems because people want to say all natural and it's not. And the second reason is it's expensive. But it is a fantastic and unlike alginate, it does not have a problem with acidity. Color, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Mark Colling from Toronto, Canada.
+
+[16:24] How you doing? Great. I'm a big fan of your show. We listen to it all the time, and uh two good friends of mine are on their honeymoon, they're at your show right now, so big ups to Ann and Adam. Wait, what I do have a question for you.
+
+[16:34] What do they look like? Um they're you know, average height. Um Adam's got a bit of a pot belly. Wow. I wonder whether I wonder whether they're eating.
+
+[16:45] He's got a full head of hair. Yeah, okay. They're waving. Yeah. We're waving too much.
+
+[16:49] Oh, that's awesome. Uh you know what? You know what? I have a question. Is Indie Jesus here, Jack?
+
+[16:52] Can we get Indie Jesus to serve them? I haven't seen him. I he might have today off. It's awful. He's mysteriously missing.
+
+[16:59] Oh my gosh. All right. We'll look for him. All right. So your question.
+
+[17:03] My question is, um, so I'm interested in trying to do some freeze drying at home in my freezer. Ooh. And I built a couple sous-vide machines, so I understand about the the temperature controllers. I'm wondering if I can use a pressure controller to sort of put a pressure vessel in my freezer with whatever food I want to freeze dry, and then sort of decrease the pressure as the temperature goes down, trying to follow the you know, the triple point line of the the water phase. Okay, so you your your main um problem.
+
+[17:27] I mean, first of all, uh do you have access to uh liquid nitrogen and or dry ice? Uh dry ice. Okay. Uh yeah, you're gonna need to I mean i in general in a freeze dryer, they're gonna they'll actually sometimes heat heat the sample, right? I mean, what w what you're gonna need to do is uh get first do you have a really good vacuum source?
+
+[17:50] Uh yeah, I've got a pretty good vacuum pump. Yeah. Like a commercial, I can get a commercial vacuum pump. Like what but in other words, I I haven't looked it up recently, but you know, it's it's basically the the vacuum pumps that I use are commercial refrigeration vacuum pumps, and they only get down to about I'd say four, you know, three or four millibar in that range. And you're gonna need to get substantially better, you're gonna need to get better than that to get a really good result out of it.
+
+[18:17] Uh you need to get quite low, and you're gonna have to ensure that your cold trap, right, that can um you know the w so basically what you know for those of you who don't know, freeze drying, what you do is you freeze something typically, then you place it uh in a vessel, you suck a vacuum on it, and in and in between that and the vacuum you put a cold trap and the the liquids that are frozen solids, so say solids frozen in the thing, sublimate, turn to a gas, migrate to the cold trap where they're frozen in the cold trap, and you maintain a vacuum until uh the majority of the liquid that's in the product, or what would be a liquid in the product has sublimated and migrated over to the cold trap. That's the theory of operation uh of it. But typically you need to get a fairly cold um uh cold trap, so dry ice is fine. Uh anything I think below about minus sixty Celsius, I think is okay. Uh, but colder is typically better.
+
+[19:09] But you're gonna need to keep it cold the whole time. I would tr if you can, I mean if you can, I would uh use your vacuum pump to also vacuum insulate the cold trap on the outside. It's gonna stop your uh heat loss and prolong the life of your uh coolant of your uh dry ice. Um the other thing is uh yeah, the temperature control and I guess a freezer would work. But your main problem is gonna be getting the vacuum right and making sure your cold trap stays cold.
+
+[19:38] I've never had luck, let's put it that way. And the uh I tried it in the rotovap, basically using the roto vap as a kind of a a cheap uh way to freeze dry with my refrigeration vacuum pump, but again, that only got down, even I tweaked it all the way out and only got it got down to maybe like two, three millibar, and it's still I did not get any luck. But I encourage you to try and tell me what happens. Okay, we'll do. I'll keep experimenting and post something on the blog if uh anything works.
+
+[20:03] Please do. Please do. Thanks, thanks for thanks for calling it. My pleasure. All right.
+
+[20:08] Okay. Um wait, we have a follow-up. I just oh wait, wait, so we have a question in the other order, there you go. Other order, here we go. Uh from uh Aaron Call.
+
+[20:18] Hey cooking issue, Steam, great show. I started listening a couple months ago. I'm getting caught up with all the back shows. I recently decided to do a DIY, that's do it yourself, circulator, and just got it finished last weekend. I started uh with the Seattle Food Geek and Oh My Puddin plans, which I don't I don't know those particular ones, but I'm sure they're well-known plans on the on the internets.
+
+[20:35] But then made a few changes. Uh what I think are improvements. So that leads to my question. First, uh the fish tank pump I started with died around 55 degrees Celsius. I am now using a $15 high temperature pump that only moves one liter per minute, roughly 16 gallons per hour.
+
+[20:49] Using several probes, it seems to be acceptable in a small bath with one bag. Do you think this is enough movement or can you recommend a faster high temperature pump that won't break the bank? Okay, that I do not think that's enough. Uh that's look, any minor circulation is gonna be enough for one bag in a pot because you just need to get the thing moving. The problem is if you put the heater into a bigger unit and then you have a lot of bags in it, you're gonna have an you're gonna have issues with uh dead spots.
+
+[21:14] So uh a high pump, uh high you know, a higher flow pump is gonna be uh better typically. The one the last time I did one, I used a pump that was recommended uh on the brewer's forums. I forget what it is, but it wasn't that expensive for uh recirculated uh mash pumps, uh rims method, uh, and uh those pumps uh handle water quite well, and I believe can go up into the mid-60s or better uh Celsius. So you might want to check out the brewers' forums for uh recirculated mash pump setups, and they all have cheap ones. I just can't remember off the top of my head.
+
+[21:48] It's also readily available, the pump I remember from sources like Granger or eBay. Okay, second. Uh blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Second, about safety. I know this is a topic you've addressed before, but I wonder if you could quickly run through some safety tips.
+
+[22:02] I'm using Ziploc bags. Under what circumstances and how critical is getting every last bit of air out. This is tough with ground meat. Is there an absolute minimum temperature to which you'd cook grocery store beef, chicken, whole or ground? Can I add anything to the bag to adjust pH or oxygen to help?
+
+[22:16] Anything else? Thanks, uh, Aaron Call. Okay, look. Uh and I'll I'll hit the follow-up when I w when I wrote in. Um okay.
+
+[22:23] Uh I'll do the follow-up afterwards. So the deal is is with safety, you don't need to get all of the air out of the bag. Uh you know, the the reason to get all you're not trying to do preservation for a long time, you're trying to cook, right? So getting the air out isn't as big a deal. That said, you can get some oxidation if there's an excess amount of air, especially on something like a uh creme en glaze.
+
+[22:43] When you're cooking a cremon glaze, you want to get the air out because I've noticed you get more of kind of an eggy sulfury taste if you don't. That's why, even though I cook a lot of meats in Ziploc bags at home, I really do prefer vacuuming for something like a creme en glaze when you're cooking it. Uh, ground meat, you don't want to get all the air out. If you did, it would be, you know, like a puck, it would be like a sausage. You wouldn't want that.
+
+[22:59] So you want to keep keep, you know, you want to keep it not not dense and crushed down. Um so the minimum temperature I would cook, uh depends what you mean by minimum. The minimum temperature that I typically recommend for people to cook at is about 54.4 Celsius, uh, because that's the minimum temperature for beef on the uh on the food, you know, the FSIS USDA website. So that's the lowest temperature that I usually recommend. There are people that recommend lower.
+
+[23:28] I typically will cook at fifty-five like steak. I will typically, and even ground meat if you cook it long enough, you have to cook it long enough because you put a lot of bacteria into the inside of the meat when you grind it, but uh 55 uh for steak and usually for uh for a hamburger I'll do like fifty six uh if I want like a rarish, medium rarish kind of thing. Cook it through. Then if you want it to maintain rare all the way through, drop the temperature to 50 degrees Celsius for uh uh about 30 minutes to to cool it, cool it down, then sear the hell out of it to get a crust on it. If you want the burger to have more of a standard taste, then don't chill it before you cook it, and you'll be fine.
+
+[24:04] But that's uh typically uh what I do. Uh and as the follow-up, I took copious uh copious notes and decent photos through the process of making the circulator. You mentioned you have a close relationship to the poly science guys, so I don't know whether you'd be interested, but I'm happy to write it up and send it to you to use as a blog post, another resource, or even just for your amusement or a critique. It's surely no thing of beauty, but I think an improvement of the other plans that already exist on the internet with greater detail in the construction steps. Let me know if it's worth my time to draft and I'll send it your way.
+
+[24:29] Why don't you send some of the photos to Stas? She'll look at it. She's a rough critic. You're the roughest critic in the world. She she hates ninety percent of the stuff I do.
+
+[24:37] And she hangs out on the weekend with snipers. Right? Okay. Paul writes in with a comment on last week's show where I forget who it was, called in and said he had problems with his chickens being tough. Every like fifth chicken breast was being tough from the Costco.
+
+[24:51] And he says, virtually all broilers, uh, nine all nine billion of them that are slaughtered in the US, nine billion. Jesus. Wow. Uh in the US are slaughtered at essentially the same age, 40 to 45 days. So tough chicken is likely not an age effect.
+
+[25:04] I I agree. But the question is, what is the effect, Dan? Has anyone else noticed the one in five tough breast problem at Costco? Have you noticed that? No.
+
+[25:13] And then we'll there is a Costco in the Bronx in Harlem. Really? Mm-hmm. How do you notice? I passed it.
+
+[25:19] How do you on the train? If you go on the Metro North, you can see Target and Costco. The funny thing is it's actually easier for me to fly to Europe than it is for me to go to uh you know, above. Yeah, it's crazy. For those of you that don't know New York, like we think we're hot snots here, but I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way.
+
+[25:38] I mean, but I mean, yeah, you know what I'm talking about. And but the the thing is is that we're so provincial, we hardly ever leave within like 10 blocks or 20 blocks of where we live. We're like, oh my god, uptown. I have to go uptown. You know, coming out to Brooklyn here, basically I feel like I'm uh I'm uh an adventurer, an explorer because I live in Manhattan.
+
+[25:56] And people in Brooklyn, I guess sometimes feel the same way. They're like, oh man, I gotta go into the city, I gotta go to Manhattan, Jesus. Anyway, weird. What do you think, Jack? Yeah, that's exactly how I feel when I have to go to the city.
+
+[26:06] Yeah, see? But notice they call the city. Yeah, booya! Okay. Uh and a question from Paul.
+
+[26:13] Over the last month, Dave has mentioned two preferred knife sharpening tools, Duo Sharp and Edge Pro. Can you comment on the need to have both? Or is one preferred and which one? The um okay. So the Edge Pro is a sharpening system, and it's one of the uh sharpening systems that's based on fixing the angle between the knife blade and the uh sharpening tool.
+
+[26:32] So basically you have on the edge pro, you hold the knife by the handle with the blade facing towards you, and there's a stick on it that you rub back and forth over the surface of the knife, and that stick's maintained at a at a very you know precise angle. So you can get both sides of the knife, and you don't have to think, you don't have to look, and you can sharpen a billion knives in like 13 seconds once you set it up. It takes like five, six minutes to set it up. Once you set it up, you can sharpen all your knives very quickly to the same edge angle. It's extremely repeatable.
+
+[26:59] So if you want to know if you know you want a particular edge angle on something, you can just rip them all through, right? Now, uh it's not very effective uh if you only need to do one or two knives, or if you need to constantly change your angles, or if all of your knives are at different edge angles, because then uh you know you're having to reset it each time and and all this other stuff. I do like it for multiple multiple things, and it gets things unbelievably sharp, okay? And it has a wide range of grits on it, and you can replace the grits, and this you know the things stay true and they don't gouge out. The um the duo sharp is basically just a hand, a large the one that I use is a large hand diamond whetstone, right?
+
+[27:37] And what I you know it requires you to have a uh it you you know, like a traditionally sharpening your knives, it requires you to use your senses, your hands, your eyes, and your you know your your finger when you're when you're you know feeling for the burr edge to determine whether you've gotten the angle correct on the sharpening and uh you know when you're done, etc. etc. They have a grit on both sides. What I like about the duo sharp is it's extremely thin, it's fairly light, and it will never warp, and you'll never gouge it out because it's uh diamonds. So, like a lot of the Japanese water stones have problems where they get gouged and they have to be retrewed over time.
+
+[28:11] That said, like I like I say, most like high-end chefs, they still adhere to their uh, you know, their Japanese water stones, and they would probably scoff at you know, my duo sharp uh that I have around. But when I use it, my knives are freaking sharp, and I get people who are like, all right, that's freaking sharp. And uh Nils, who is a water stone man for many years, uh tried mine when I was away once and was like, alright, I'm getting one of these suckers because you know what? It's easy to fit in my bag. I don't have to freaking soak it in water.
+
+[28:40] It doesn't make a mess all over my knives the way that the uh water stones do. Uh, and I don't have to retrew it ever. Done done done done and done. Right? Hey, look, if you don't like it, call up and blame me and tell me I'm a jerkwad.
+
+[28:53] But make sure you get the really, really uh the the green and red one. Don't get one of the coarser ones. It's not gonna be it's not gonna be happy for you. Okay. So uh I have a uh should we do one more quick commercial break there, Jack?
+
+[29:06] What do you think? Yes. Commercial break, cooking issues, don't bring that shit to me. Don't bring bullshit to Africa. Don't bring that shit to me.
+
+[29:47] Don't bring Dashi and Brucey to Africa. That's exactly what he was saying. This is a Japanese food hater from Africa. Yeah, man. What was that?
+
+[29:56] Fighting words. Well, I had to just, you know, it was a quick commercial break call by you, so I did just click on something. But what the heck was that? That was Sean Cootie. I'm guessing Fela Kuti's son.
+
+[30:05] And the whole premise of this is I do not want to see a Japanese store in Africa. And furthermore, furthermore, I do not want to see any sort of crappy Japanese African fusion cuisine with your Dashi based stuff in my in my in in my food, basically. Yeah. That's crazy, crazy stuff. Crazy stuff?
+
+[30:39] Stas, you would like that. Stas does not like combo. You like Dashi, though. Yeah. As long as it's got the katsu Bushi in it.
+
+[30:45] Yeah. But don't bring Bushi to that guy. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
+
+[30:51] He's not pleased with it. Okay. Wow. I I can't even think about anything else. My whole life's outlook is like changed.
+
+[30:57] I did not realize there was such a katsu Bushi hating crowd out there. Uh with uh, you know, um yeah, weird. Okay. Uh hey Nastasha. Uh just you.
+
+[31:08] I love what you and Dave. Oh, I love what you and Dave do. Uh, but mostly you, Nastashi. They know I read. They know you read?
+
+[31:14] Yeah. The emails. Oh, I see. I mean, she can also read. She has that capability.
+
+[31:18] Anyway, uh, I have two questions. Okay, listen, I'm gonna answer the first question, or really I'm gonna post postpone because I really don't know the answer to the first question. And the second one, I'm gonna do your question along with someone else's question because it's one of those rare instances where I've gotten very similar questions in the same week. Okay. One.
+
+[31:33] Where does the term eighty six come from? So those of you that don't know what we're talking about, uh, usually there's a there's a number of things. You could say someone is eighty six, which means they're no longer welcome, right? In a restaurant or a place, or you could say an item is 86, and that means we're out of it and and stop serving it, right? So, you know, when last night when we ran out of the peach, uh, by the way, listen to this.
+
+[31:54] At the bar, Booker and Dax, we have a peach dish on the menu, a peach drink. I don't want to hear about it about how it's not peach season. Let me tell you something. It's never freaking peach season in New York, right? I mean, like, we grow peaches here.
+
+[32:04] Remember when we had those really good ones? Were they from New York? No. They were from the remember they were we bought them in Harlem, but they were trucked up from like uh down south somewhere, like like Maryland or some crap, and he's known for that, right? New York is not like look, I have the book Peaches in New York, so I'm fully aware of the history of peach growing in New York State, okay?
+
+[32:22] Uh, but it it's uh, you know, look, we just it's not our finest point. But the fact of the matter is, right, that uh peaches when they are in season don't last very long. And so you have a boatload of peaches lying around. So the question is you can either make uh traditional peach brandy with it, which is delicious, right? Uh, or you can make uh peach jam, or you can make canned peaches, which Nastasha happens to find incredibly delicious.
+
+[32:46] Do you not? You like a canned peach. They're my favorite thing. Yeah. In fact, Nastasha likes a canned peach, not as a substitute for a fresh peach, but rather as its own thing.
+
+[32:58] Correct? Right. So Nastasha said, Hey, look, you know, it's uh it's winter time out. Why don't we make canned peaches a drink and put it on the menu? So we made canned peach juice, right?
+
+[33:10] And then uh Karen Jarman, one of our bartenders, made a delicious tequila mezcal umaboshi vinegar canned peach drink. Which, you know, it's clarified in the center of your snows. But people are like, oh my god, it's not seasonal. It totally is seasonal. It's absolutely seasonal.
+
+[33:25] Peaches are always in season. Well, no, canned peaches are not in season in the height of summer. You should be saving them for other times. Okay. Well, they're always in season for me.
+
+[33:29] Yes. Anyway, my point is it's okay to use it as long as you use it for the right reasons. That made that up. Oh, that reminds me. But I know I'm not gonna have time, but I have to go through it anyway.
+
+[33:43] As I was walking here to the to the radio show, I looked on the street and there was an empty, kind of crushed box uh box of hot pockets on the street. Hot pockets. You familiar with hot pockets? Yeah. Now, my kids, I don't know what the hell it is.
+
+[33:55] My kids look like go to the store, they look in the thing, and they they want the freaking hot pockets. And the thing is that the only television they ever watch is streamed through Netflix or Hulu. So they've never seen the commercial where they're like, Hot pockets. Now I I know that like hot pockets is like a, you know, that that tune, like, I almost want to buy it, you know, and the word hot pocket, like has that awesome like alliteration, hot pocket. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:20] It's like, and if they hired like Snoop Dogg to just get on the air and go like hot pockets, hot pockets, hot pockets, I would buy it. Like, if you just said it like five times in a row, I would do nothing but buy hot pockets. You know what I mean? But how the hell do my kids know this? What kind of evil marketing genius do they have that can make a kid look at a box of freaking hot pockets and say, Daddy, buy me those damn things.
+
+[34:42] What was the sound effect? I like that. What was that? Actually, uh, for those who don't know the Hot Pockets song. Oh, do it.
+
+[34:47] Do it. When you want a hot meal without a big deal, what are you gonna pick? Hot pockets! What are you gonna pick? Hot pockets!
+
+[35:00] Hot pockets filled with delicious pepperoni pizza, chicken and cheddar ham and cheese. In a crispy pocket. When it later, not in your own. It's not crispy, usually. Hot pockets!
+
+[35:13] You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go out and buy me some hot pockets. Oh, don't do that. But the thing is, how have my kids know that? They've never seen that.
+
+[35:19] I mean, that commercial is a sale, Jack. Come on now. It's pretty good. It's pretty damn good. Anyway, hot pockets.
+
+[35:24] Okay. Maybe we need to make a modernist pantry commercial like that. Oh man. Alright. So the second.
+
+[35:32] Oh, oh, so uh 86. I don't know how the hell we got it is. Okay, so 86. Uh anyway, the point is that when you're 86 something, uh, it's gone, or you have to get rid of the person, etc. etc.
+
+[35:42] Now, uh it's like many terms uh of this nature, uh, there's no accepted um there's no accepted uh derivation of it. The etymologies are kind of all BS and they're all based on like uh very tenuous uh reasoning. Uh some people say that, you know, Delmonico's the restaurant uh had an item number 86 that was uh always out. Uh some people have said that it comes from a streetcar where the 86th Street was the last stop. Some people have said it comes from uh, you know, the crew on a on a ship that only had eighty-five, and so the eighty-sixth person wasn't there, etc.
+
+[36:16] etc. Supposedly there was a law about alcohol service that was um, you know, Article 86 that no one's ever seen the article or printed it, uh, etc. There's no there's a table that only had 85 seats and 86, etc. blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, uh these all seem to be pretty much to be uh horse hockey.
+
+[36:34] The other good one is uh Chumley's, which is a famous speakeasy in New York, it was spake easy, is number eighty six on its street, and so they would throw people out and they'd see the eighty six sign. Go to Snopes.com for you know, basically a good rundown of all this, but all this stuff seems kind of uh nonsense. This uh the Snopes writer, I believe it's a woman, I forget who it is. Uh I couldn't copy it because they have an anti-the like copyright. They won't let me right-click and paste.
+
+[36:57] But uh her main thesis is probably it's a rhyming slang, eighty-six for NYX. You know what I mean? Nix it, nix something, nix it eighty-six. Anyway, uh but there's also a whole host of I didn't have a chance to find my copy, but uh Darcy O'Neal's uh uh fix the pumps uh has a lot of old soda slang jargon in it, and that you know, and also probably old diner slang, and uh that's one of those old terms, so he might go into the etymology and he's good with that kind of a thing. The book Fix the Pumps, by the way, is an old slang term for check out the woman with the large breasts, basically fix the pumps.
+
+[37:31] That's what the slang is for. Uh uh anyway, so uh what do you think? Is that that answer that question? Basically, I don't think there is an answer. Uh the second question is quite interesting.
+
+[37:42] Is uh two, when it comes to soaking livers, may it be monkfish, duck, chicken, or even beef. What's the what difference does it make to soak it in water, carbonated water, or milk? What works best? Uh the carbonated water actually, uh, and this is from Philippe, the carbonated water I'd never heard of. Uh, but it's interesting.
+
+[37:59] I did notice in the 1890s, there was reference if a bird was gamey or if parts of things were gamey to uh wipe it with soda water. But my presumption with they say soda water isn't carbonated water, but water with baking soda in it. Or uh, you know, uh and so you know, or cooking soda in it. And uh uh that seems to me to make more sense because then they say to pack it with charcoal to get rid of the bad odors, right? Because you're gonna cook that damn thing, you're not gonna throw it away back in the 1890s Boston Cooking School book.
+
+[38:30] Um so I'm wondering whether that carbonated water is actually a modern thing that has some sort of scientific merit, or whether it's a misread of soda water from uh a much older technique of deodorizing a uh you know, a gamey bird. Uh the other thing, whether it's going to be water or milk and what works best, I'm going to combine in with uh a question we have on sweetbreads uh from uh Adam Lazarick. I was hoping you could give your opinion on soaking sweetbreads, livers, and other awful, mainly touching on using milk or not. If milk, what's exactly why exactly is it used, and are there other alternatives? Is there a time maybe you could touch on your preferred cooking technique for cooking sweetbreads, i.e.
+
+[39:08] in corte bouillon, sous vide or not, to press or not, peel before or after, and so on. I've always soaked in milk, poached and then pressed, but never really questioned why to press and soak in milk. Okay, so I'm gonna handle those two things at once. Here's the deal. Uh most of the cooking techniques for awful involve getting it's a horrible word, right?
+
+[39:28] They're they they now but even like all of the alternatives they use for awful are also awful, like variety meats. Variety. Sounds terrible, right? Anyway. Uh a lot of these techniques are made to either get rid of residual blood in them uh because there's uh you know, they're usually typically they're not um they're not muscle, and so a lot of times you want to get rid of the blood, like in sweetbreads, so that the color is good.
+
+[39:51] So soaking helps with that. Or to get rid of the off flavors that develop because um these things spoil relatively quickly compared to muscle meats and tend to have a higher bacterial contamination at the beginning, right? And they also uh tend to have a lot of fat that tends to break down more than the fat in uh regular whole muscle cuts. And so you have uh, you know, fat oxidation, you have microbial spoilage, uh, and you have a lot of other things that cause these things to kind of be stinky and to need a little uh special tender loving care before they're cooked. And that's a lot of times what the soak is doing.
+
+[40:23] Also, if you're gonna poach something, uh, you know, they'll typically say put it in cold and bring it up when you're poaching it, and that's also to draw stuff out. McGee mentions this that that you know you start cold and bring it up so that you can um so that basically you're drawing soluble proteins out, and then once they're drawn out, cold, then they coagulate on the surface, and you can skim off that uh undesirable scum that floats on the top of the uh of the blanching pot when you're doing uh poaching of uh offal and sweetbreads and things like this. Now, milk is very interesting because a lot of these uh a lot of these cuts can uh develop uh off flavors due to fat breakdown, rancidity, and um basically just you know the breakdown, free fatty acids, things like this. And they have a lot of lipid-based um uh off flavors in them. If you soak in milk, milk is going to be better.
+
+[41:12] This is by the way, just off the top of my head, but I believe it to be true. Uh but this is not based in like scientific research, but this is what I'm telling you. And someone can come back and tell me I'm a jerk or an idiot, which I'm sure they will. Uh uh like milk is good because it's water, but it has uh uh fat in it. So I'm thinking skim milk probably wouldn't be as good for this, right?
+
+[41:30] And it would suck out the um it would suck out some of the fat-based off flavors, right? Better than water alone would. That's my guess. What do you think about that guess, Nastasha? That's a good guess.
+
+[41:41] Yeah, good guess, good guess. Anyway, so the soaking is good is is to draw out uh things that are soluble, that are not bound, uh that can be taken off. Uh salt is going to flavor it, it's also going to um probably help it out texturally. Uh if you use salt water, uh salted milk might be a good alternative. Uh, and I think that's what's going on.
+
+[42:01] And then you you never keep the milk, you discard it because it apparently is sucking up all the evil, all the evil humor, right? Uh and so that is my guess for that. Uh as for um But I want are there any other like partially fatty things that you could use like that? I mean, I bet you could make a soaking thing that wasn't milk if you were allergic to milk. You could like emulsify some fat into something with an emulsifier and then add it to it.
+
+[42:24] You think that that might work. Like take a Lloyd 310S, use that to make like a uh an olive oil water emulsion, or use an ultrasonic homogenizer to make a milk out of like uh, you know, you could do it. I mean you could make a non-milk-based alternative if the question is that you can't use milk. Uh I tend to do, and I don't know why, but I tend to do the the old school uh with sweetbreads. I um I will I will soak them in salt water, poach them in milk, press them, and then fry them.
+
+[42:52] Uh but I don't know why. I like a crispy sweetbread, by the way. I don't do sous vide or any of that stuff on it. Uh I should. I have the instructions for it, uh or the temperatures for it on the blog in the in the cooking charge, but typically I do it the old school way because I like a crunchy sweetbread, right?
+
+[43:08] And not a mushy one. Do you like a mushy sweet bread or crunchy? Crunchy. Crunchy, yeah. Uh and uh I press it so it stays together.
+
+[43:14] I put salt water in the soak so that it tastes good and uh and draws out the extra uh blood and whatnot, and I use milk because I don't know why. I just do it. You know what I mean? Uh right? I mean, there's no no better.
+
+[43:27] Oh, by the way, if you like uh sweetbreads, but you uh don't like uh uh bovine spongiform and cephalopathy, aka mad cow, or if you're worried about it, I don't know if people are still worried about that nowadays. Or if you're worried about any sort of uh T S E trans uh transfer uh miscible, transmissible spongiform and cephalopathy, which is degenerative uh drain disorder uh brain disorder uh related to you, yup squatch fell, very similar, 100% fatal, uh takes a long time. Anyway, uh, if you're worried about that, uh you can make something of very passable fake sweet bread using uh chicken skins. You just roll up uh you you you sprinkle chicken skins with salt and meat glue, roll them into a roulade, let them set, poach them off, cut them into pinwheels, and deep fry them, and they are very similar to sweetbreads, and delicious, I might add. Very delicious.
+
+[44:12] Dave, I hate to do this, but it's time. Oh man, I can't get the one last one. We gotta get the next caller on the line for the next show. Oh man. Alright, listen, Lee Calman.
+
+[44:21] I have your question on hearts, on how to cook hearts, and I will tell them I will tell you my answers on it next week. And it involves an article called Studies on the Development of Tenderized Chicken Gizzard and Goat Heart Pickles. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[44:57] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. And I just can't get it straight. Vicious Vishes
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwood, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from approximately 12 to 1245. Today, Jack, we are coming exactly 12.
+
+[0:36] 12 on the dot. Which does not happen. No. Unfortunately, we are not joined in the studio today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. She is taking my place at the Bukey Trade Show in Florida, Orlando.
+
+[0:49] Orlando, Orlando. Yeah. So she's uh she's down there uh roto vaping um scotch in uh in a rotary evaporator, and then taking the leftover oak and uh making ice cream with it. And I'm assuming taking the uh the you know the clear scotch, the uh we call it you know gray dog, the one that's been uh ta had the oak taken out of it in the road of app, I'm sure she's just drinking that to drown her sorrows. Right?
+
+[1:16] I mean she's not a hey, no offense to Florida. She's not an Orlando fan. Let me just put it that way. She's not happy to be taking my place in Orlando. But eventually today in the audience, uh in the uh studio rather, we're gonna have Tony Connigliaro.
+
+[1:31] And since nobody can pronounce his name, which I I think means rabbit keeper in Italian, uh, they just call him Tony C. But Tony C, it uh runs, you know, one of my absolute most favorite bars in the whole world, uh 69 Colebrook Row, uh, in London. Fantastic bar. He has uh a you know a laboratory as well where he does a lot of really high uh you know cutting edge work uh in cocktails and was uh one of the cocktail bars where I first experienced uh you know the fact that you could use very high end uh very high end stuff in a very comfortable wonderful atmosphere and so Tony should be here in a minute but he uh is as many guests have been uh trapped somewhere in Brooklyn and does not know how to get to Robertus that happens man it does it does he left like he was in Brooklyn in Williamsburg headed here started like half hour ago and has not yet made it amazing anyway uh calling all your questions to 7184972128 that's 718 497 2128. It's kind of sad not having Nastasha here right yeah yeah I can do my best I can you know make some faces and stuff.
+
+[2:40] I know but I can hardly even see your face yet somebody needs to sit across from you at that table and make faces. Right preferably someone like Nastasha who has like a a peculiar knack for getting me angry. Right. Yeah yeah all right anyway while we're waiting for questions to come in uh we have a question from oh this is last week's question that we didn't get to from uh Lee Calman and by the way my kids ran my battery dry on my iPad so I'm actually doing this uh this show via my iPhone and uh case you didn't know I'm getting a little old so it's hard for me to read these tiny tiny letters. Anyway, hey guys love the show got my hands on three fresh lamb hearts well since this question is from last week I doubt the lamb hearts are fresh anymore.
+
+[3:18] You know what I mean Jack? Uh I trimmed the first one in the medallions and simply grilled it with salt and pepper. It was delicious. The second I also trimmed in medallions and cooked at low temperature for 56 Celsius at 56 Celsius rather for three hours and also had uh it was delicious, but it had a very similar texture to the first attempt. Wondering how I might get it a bit more tender on the third heart, perhaps another hour or two of cooking.
+
+[3:41] Or since it's relatively lean cut, is there nothing really to break down? What would you do? Well, Lee, uh, I love heart. I haven't done a lot of work with uh low temperature cooking on heart, uh, but you know, the way that you did it first, which is you know, really grilled quickly with like a char on the outside where it remains chewy on the inside, is to me my favorite on almost any kind of heart, you know, like chicken hearts. There's nothing, there's nothing quite like a grilled uh chicken heart.
+
+[4:06] Like if I could grow chickens that just had hearts and skin, that I would do that. I mean, I love chicken meat, but chicken hearts and chicken skins are are incredible. But I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's relatively not only is it relatively lean, but uh I believe, and I did some research into it, I believe most of the uh that you know, muscle, heart muscle isn't necessarily connective tissue like it would be in something like a gizzard or something like that, which gets very soft with prolonged cooking. Uh heart is mainly just really strong muscle.
+
+[4:34] And so I don't know that it's going to break down the same way uh as um you know a cut with a lot of collagen and it would with prolonged cooking. I'm not saying it won't. I mean, you know, you could try a couple of days and see because it actually you you it would work if you cooked it for a long, long time it worked. You know, because you can tell even with very uh lean cuts, uh they get tender if they're cooked for a long time, but it's not really a pleasing tenderness, it's more of a mushiness. So I don't know if you're gonna be able to get um I don't know if you're gonna be able to get exactly what you're looking at uh with that, but I did find an article called uh Studies on Development of Tenderized Chicken Gizzard and Goat Heart Pickles.
+
+[5:14] Uh this is uh in 2009. It's uh A.K. Mighty is the uh is the author. It's an awesome name, Mighty. Uh anyway, uh they're studying uh traditional Indian uh heart uh and gizzard pickles, and uh they did something very smart.
+
+[5:29] They they sliced it relatively thin, they jacarded the meat somewhat to get penetration, and then they brined it in a meat tenderizer. They were using a variety of natural tenderizers. Um for instance, ginger uh apparently has some tenderizing agents and enzyme in it tenderizing. They're also using the late, not figs themselves, but the latex from a papaya uh from fig uh plant uh or tree, and uh uh a weird uh bitter gourd extract that you can't get here in uh in the US to try it out. And uh they had very good luck uh tenderizing it that way.
+
+[6:02] So you you could try you could try that. Uh and then I read some other uh articles online, although I haven't done it using uh baking soda actually as a tenderizer. Presumably the lye, the alkaline nature breaks down the protein structure somewhat and causes it to bind less strongly to each other and makes it uh more tender. Uh but that uh but now I want to try these pickled, these pickled goat hearts. Wouldn't you wouldn't you just chow down on a on a jar of pickled goat hearts, Jack?
+
+[6:28] I would, yeah. I mean, I'd never considered that before. Why don't you get uh get Patrick to order us up some goat hearts? I I mean I have the procedure right here. I mean it's it's pretty dang simple.
+
+[6:38] They they give you the whole thing. I think October was goat season for him, but I don't know if he's getting more. Yeah, but it's a goat heart season. I mean, these are right. Well, if he if he pickled them, we should be able to have them, you know, all year all year long.
+
+[6:49] That's right. Uh also uh another way to tenderize meat that you might not want to do is uh ionizing radiation at high sterilizing doses of uh uh high high high sterilizing and radiating doses caused changes in meat proteins, resulted in increased tenderness, and God knows what else. Uh actually I shouldn't say that's stupid. But like uh for many years, people um were against the irradiation of uh fruits, vegetables, and meats because they saw thought that somehow the the the food was gonna glow in the dark, and so there's a whole group of people that are anti-irradiated foods. To me, the only real argument against uh irradiating foods is if the if the actual uh irradiation source is unsafe to the workers, unsafe to the environment, which I don't know if they are or not.
+
+[7:32] Uh, and B, does the crap taste good or not? You know? And um So that's how they did that glow in the dark sushi. No, no, no. That's like that I I don't really know.
+
+[7:41] I researched that once for a very short amount of time. That's like a bioluminescent protein. I mean the one that like you see Farran eating the popsicle and his tongue is glowing. Yeah, that's a bioluminescent protein. When you when you irradiate food, I mean there's not I mean, all the studies that I've read, and they're all old because they were trying to use basically the byproducts of all sorts of awful tests and things that they were doing.
+
+[8:00] But um, you know, but basically there's no uh residual radiation uh left in the food. But one of the issues is you'll get uh textural degradation of the food uh uh over time as it's irradiated. It's the same problem that some people have with uh very, very high pressure, high hydrostatic pressure uh sterilization, things like oysters. Uh they say that there's textural changes, and it usually means that you've breaking broken the stuff down somewhat, so this can either be seen as a positive or a negative. I mean, one person's tenderness is another person's mushiness.
+
+[8:30] Me personally, uh I like meat, I like to taste the muscle, uh, the fiber structure. I like it to be tender, but I like the structure to be intact. When that structure starts getting broken down, such as something that is naturally kind of chewy becomes tender. To me, uh to me, that's mush. If all you're doing is breaking down collagen and the collagen breaks down, but the muscle fibers are still intact, that's tender to me.
+
+[8:53] Um so it to me it's uh it's a fine line. Anyway, we've got a caller. Oh, caller, you are on the air. Uh big fan of the show and what you guys are doing. I have uh a science question and a recipe question for you.
+
+[8:58] Go ahead. Uh his science question is uh so my father is diabetic and tries to treat exclusively with diet. Uh so it's foregone dessert, but uh was thinking of trying to do uh meringues for him, and uh you've talked a lot about how the importance of sugar, not just as a sweetener, but as a a structural uh component. And I was curious if you have thoughts on uh meringues with uh without sugar and just the sugar alcohols. I know erythritol has gotten a lot of press.
+
+[9:35] Um if you have thoughts on that dimension. Uh well, that's interesting. I haven't specifically done it. I mean, I uh the the one we always keep around is isomalt. And uh I'm trying to think if I've ever made a meringue with ice.
+
+[9:47] Oh, guarantee you a meringue with isomolt would work. It just won't be as sweet. Do you know what I mean? So you'd have to um uh I I I don't have a lot of experience uh doing one-to-one sugar replacements, i.e. trying to keep stuff sweet.
+
+[9:59] Do you know what I'm saying? Um I have much more experience trying to get the textural properties of sugar without the sweetness. So I'll use things like glucose um uh syrups and uh or if I want something harder that's gonna have a lot more of a gelling property, I'll use uh isomalt. So uh which is the one you mentioned, I forget. Uh erythritol.
+
+[10:21] And does it have similar sweetness properties to uh sugar? It's a sugar alcohol that uh the body doesn't break down and it doesn't have a lot of the nasty uh gut properties that a lot of other sugar alcohols have. Uh yeah, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, sugar alcohols are generally undigestible, and so they add to what you would consider your bulk fiber content, so they can cause uh what's the nice word, flatulence and and runniness and whatnot. Uh is that is that a polite way of putting it, you think? I I think that was delicate, yes.
+
+[10:54] Yeah. So uh so if it has similar sweetness properties, I mean the great thing about isomol, aside from uh the fact that it's not sweet, which is I like, is that it's uh it doesn't pull a lot of moisture out of the air, and so it uh maintains its structure for a long time. Um and I don't know the properties of the other sugar alcohols, but it I mean look, I know isomalt works, so I'm sure the other sugar alcohols, assuming that they don't pull too much water out of the air and turn to a soupy mess, would work as well. Do you know what I mean? Oh, great.
+
+[11:22] Okay, I'll start experimenting. Can you do me a favor and send send us a note and tell us how it worked out for you? I I certainly will. So a a a recipe question, if if you don't mind. Uh so I'm among the Legion throngs that have decided to hack together our own immersion circulators, and it's been really fun to play with.
+
+[11:38] Uh I had fun trying to do head-to-head recipe comparisons where you start with very similar base ingredients just to show off the effects to skeptical friends. Uh chicken worked well, did a buttermilk marinated chicken and uh either a high heat roast or a slow cook with a flash fry. And it was a lot of fun to sort of compare and contrast the different effects, how the marinade took, etc. I was curious if you have uh other suggestions of uh you know recipes or ingredients where you can do uh a really nice comparison that's scientific. You start with the same ingredients uh and show off the power of uh slow cooking.
+
+[12:16] Strictly speaking, slow cook versus normal cook? Uh slow cook versus normal cook, or just the fun that you can do with uh low temp food. I mean, the cheapest and easiest thing to do, and it's not, I mean, it depends, it's impressive if you haven't done it before for someone, obviously is eggs. You know, showing showing someone an egg at 63 versus 62 versus 64, people are like, oh, I get it. That's pretty awesome.
+
+[12:40] Um steaks are uh are are a good one to show kind of equal done equal doneness uh all the way through. Obviously, here's one that's interesting. It's not better or worse, but like a very like a slow cook uh on a short rib, some people prefer most you know m like if you tell someone that it's um if you tell someone that it's the same thing as a braid short rib, then then generally they like the bray short rib better. If you just tell them here's like a really cool cut of meat, in general people really like the long cook things like short ribs because they have an intense meaty flavor and they cut they cut tender like a steak. So uh a short rib that's cooked for 24 hours at let's say fifty s uh at like fifty-seven to sixty C is gonna have the texture of a skirt steak, which is pretty amazing for people.
+
+[13:23] Do you know what I mean? Or cooked for 24 to 36 hours is going to have more of a tender steak texture. People kind of like that as a comparison. And it's interesting to compare that side by side with the traditional braise because they're totally different. Not better, not worse, different.
+
+[13:37] Um, but give give those uh give those uh a shot. All right. Thanks so much and keep it up. Thank you. Tony C, Tony the Rabbit Man, Tony Canoyaro is in the studio.
+
+[13:52] Hello. How you doing? Good. How are you? Had trouble getting here, huh?
+
+[13:56] Uh yeah. Yeah. Uh all right, so I described you uh a little bit uh to the audience as uh I don't know what I said. I said uh fantastic bartender, drinks factory lab, uh sixty nine Colebrook Row. What's the name of the hotel bar again?
+
+[14:09] Uh Zessa Townhouse. Yeah, yeah. Apparently also awesome. Bastard. Yeah, you've been saying it yet, have you?
+
+[14:15] Yeah. Yeah. So uh so anyway, so uh we actually had a question in uh for you know you and I to talk about cocktails, and then uh after that I think we'll go to a commercial break and bang out some stuff. Hold on a second. Nastasha, who's not here today because she's in Florida, uh, tweeted it out yesterday, so we got in a good question for you.
+
+[14:34] Uh okay. Uh this is from uh Kevin for us. Uh hope you and Dave are doing well. Uh I've really been enjoying the last few shows. I just saw you have Tony C on today, so I had some cocktail questions to send your way.
+
+[14:48] What are your thoughts on the binary interactions of taste combinations? I've read a few papers that essentially say that sodium in both uh sodium chloride and uh MSG suppress bitterness, sugar and acid uh and cancel and wait uh suppress bitterness and sugar and acid cancel each other out, etc. Do you have any methodical approaches to adding small amounts of flavors to find the perfect balance, or do you have a standard ratio you apply? How do you know how much salt to add to a cocktail? Huh?
+
+[15:14] That's the perfect question for you, Tony. Yeah. Let me just bounce that around in my head for a few seconds. Um I think at the end of the day, you can read papers and you can you can look at lots of sheep. It's how it works in your mouth.
+
+[15:32] And you've got to keep trying and trying. I mean, when we're kind of making cocktails and we're we're kind of working on stuff, you know, we it's almost like uh uh an artist has a blank canvas. Until you've kind of put something on that canvas, then you don't know what else is gonna happen on there. Uh so we kind of uh guesstimate sometimes off some of the you know kind of literature we read, and then kind of work it up and down until we get the perfect formula. That kind of can involve like making uh a drink or uh you know uh a mix um you know up to 30, 40 times until we've got that exact kind of resonance that we want in our mouths uh and that we think will work once we give it to a larger larger audience.
+
+[16:14] Um so I think a lot of these kind of papers just use them as vague guidelines. I don't think you can ever ever say that will work universally until you've actually kind of tried how it reacts with all the other ingredients. Right. I mean, I'm sure you have like a go-to starting point. For those of you that don't know Tony, like if you walk into his, I don't know if they he still does this, but if you walk in when they're actually doing testing, uh they'll have uh various and Tony is uh as I mean, I'm putting words in his mouth, he's right here, he can talk for himself, but uh big proponent of um subthreshold uh uh you know modifiers like salt and other other flavors like that that you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out.
+
+[16:53] In fact, he doesn't want you to pick them out, but they're there to kind of round and punch flavors up and down. And I remember one time I visited his bar and they were working with I forget what the particular ingredient was, but they were uh the eventual cocktail is gonna have a fairly small amount, and so they were trying to figure out what their mix was gonna be, uh, you know, that was gonna I guess you I don't know whether you work out of bitter's bottles or what, but they were using a micropipetter to basically make a bunch of iterations with very small differences in particular components that would then and they're not gonna pull out a micropipeta at the bar, but that it's to help them figure out what their uh base is going to be to work with when they're actually behind the bar. So is that's something you still do at the end of the thing? Yeah, I mean, I think that that experiment there was um something that ended up in uh the dry martini that we did, which was to make a dry martini drier. Uh and rather than it kind of being a flavor, it was an effect which which was using kind of um uh condensed tannins that we got from grapes so we kind of macerated them then rotovated off so they were very very concentrated and you could have like you know ten uh microns per litre of vermouth sorry uh per litres of vermouth that would have an effect even when you put it in a drink uh and we use micropipetus for that uh and you know we kind of started fairly high but I mean we started around fifty and even adding fifty microns to uh a bottle of vermouth and then making a martini with it dried you know pucking your mouth up so much that it didn't work.
+
+[18:24] So we kind of, you know i i again it's it's trying and then seeing where these things would go. Because you know sometimes these papers are kind of you know uh uh use pre-made chemicals and whatever else that you buy from laboratories. Uh the difference with that and I suppose kind of what we do we're kind of a bit more fast and loose in as far as we're making these ingredients ourselves. So you know we can't test the amount of kind of tannins in something by ourselves so the register is basically in our mouths, which I think it always should be anyway. I mean that's the most important instrument.
+
+[18:59] Yeah it's it's the most accurate anyway. Yeah and it's it's what we're mixing for. We're mixing for the mouth not for the HPLC machine. Yeah exactly you know um well the mouth and the nose I guess and the eyes. But we're mixing for the human being.
+
+[19:11] For the human being. Yeah. Uh clever instrument that one clever instrument that one. Exactly. Yeah, pretty good.
+
+[19:17] Sometimes it works. Sometimes, yeah, exactly. Uh but uh, you know, I know at the bar, uh one thing we we tend to add, uh I mean, look, obviously we have uh go-to ratios of acids. We all have our own favorite uh basic sour ratio in our head that we can move up or down on depending on what the mood, you know, what mood strikes us or what the you know the additions we have to it are. And I also I personally have a basic uh salt.
+
+[19:42] You know, at the bar we we have a uh our standard salt solution is uh 20 grams of salt in a hundred milliliters of water, dissolve it, put it into standard kind of American, not you know, not Imperial drops, but uh standard American eyedroppers. And uh and you know, uh depending on the drink, uh, you know, most citrus drinks get a drop or two, depending on uh how much we want. Like for me, uh daiquiri is a one-drop drink usually, and uh most of our tequila drinks are two drop drinks, uh, because people like a little bit more of an edge on their tequila drinks. So I mean I think there's you know, once you start incorporating something like salt into your um into your the routine of bartending, um, you're going to find kind of go-to uh go-to ratios that you like. And then Tony takes it another step further because you know, every time I've worked with him, he really enjoys uh fine-tuning.
+
+[20:39] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's definitely something we do, just because it's it's the you know, being able to replicate these things over and over again uh that I think is important because there's nothing worse, I suppose, than going to a cocktail bar and having you know uh the same drink that you really love, but it comes out in different variations each time. So we try and narrow that band down as much as possible by using some of the micropropettes and equipment like that. Uh just because it makes it you know super accurate and using kind of super accurate scales and and things like that.
+
+[21:08] Yeah. And it you know, Tony, by the way, for those of you that don't haven't had a chance to go to uh sixty nine Colbert Row, uh is he's the master of busting all this equipment out behind the scenes, but when you show up at the bar, it's like you know, a tranny band and a honky tonk piano. And so there's like there is no um at least the you know three times or what that I've been to London and hung out basically exclusively at 69 Colebook Row, uh is uh you know, you you wouldn't um know from being there that you're dealing with someone who is taking such precise care of their drinks until you taste the cocktails, which are fantastic. And so it was one of the first places where I really saw in practice that you can have uh you know a real palace of cot of to the cocktail, but in a completely friendly atmosphere, which is you know something that hasn't really been replicated too often. I think that was you know, it was always a consideration and always something that we wanted to do because I think um the minute you kind of have the bartenders talking about um you know the science of it, it can be pretty boring.
+
+[22:19] You know, it's you know the atmosphere needs to be conducive to you know, I want to talk to you, let's have a conversation, or you know, there's there's the distraction, you kind of go there to get distracted. You know, if there's yeah, there's obviously people that want to know more, and that's you know, that's open as well. But our focus is to run a bar that is enjoyable and is fun and has you know uh is about hosting, it's about bartending, it's not about kind of geeking out. Right. I mean, a booker and dax, which is, you know, the bar that you know I'm running now, um with Tristan.
+
+[22:52] Uh the you know, I think we really fell into that trap early on, even though I knew I didn't want to fall into that trap. A lot of the tech, you know, the techniques were so new to the crew that they were just excited about it. I think there was a little there was quite a bit at the beginning, too much talk maybe to the customers about it, and we really kind of I think uh trying to ratchet that back because it's really just about the drink. But what you do as well is a lot of fun. I mean kind of watching you last night in the excellent bar that you um was the you know it's fun to watch you kind of do the thing because that th that's a point of interest.
+
+[23:25] I think you know, some of the things we do aren't that interesting, like micropipettes aren't interesting to watch. But watching you watching you kind of carbonate stuff and and you know, use the liquid nitrogen and uh and all of those things is a visual exciting thing to actually to watch. I think that brings a whole heap of stuff to to you know uh the to the table. Yeah, I mean it it's it's an interesting question. I just want to make sure you know you want to make sure that that nothing that you're using is a gimmick and that it doesn't become which I thought I don't think we do.
+
+[23:54] Like so for instance, you know, at Booker and Dax we're very uh we're very low on garnish. You know what I mean? Kind of at this point specifically. It's not that I can't make a bunch of crazy garnishes. It's just you know Pringles last night, wasn't it?
+
+[24:07] Oh my god, that's great garnish. Uh I hope that makes it in the bodega week our Pringle our Pringle garnish. And of course, you know, Brits don't know what a Pringle is, so we had to go through a long explanation of what a Pringle is to Tony. Pringles. You know, Pringles are kind of a miracle.
+
+[24:21] Pringles uh was like one of the biggest R and D development budgets on a food product of all time. And it took like twenty years to pay back and Pringles finally started making money like twenty years after they did it because of the amazing like investment in potato chip molds that they made for the Pringles and the can development and all that. Crazy, crazy stuff. All right. Alright, so another cocktail question from Kevin.
+
+[24:43] Yeah, indoor. Let's take a quick break first. Oh, quick break. Oh, alright. We're going to quick workle break.
+
+[24:47] Call up with 7184972128. Cooking issues. Speak pimping, baby. Speak pimping spinach. G G you know why talk them from love em leave 'em.
+
+[25:16] Cause I don't need them. Take them on the hook. Keep them looking good, but I don't feed them. First time they bust, I'm breezing. Talk about what's the reasons.
+
+[25:24] I'm a pimp in every sense of the word. Till I need it till I need to be the gustin' is B beep and I'm picking them up, then I'll play with the truck. Many chicks wanna put chicken fists and come. Divorce them and split his bucks. Just because you got good.
+
+[25:39] I'ma break bread, so you can be living it up. Hit off. I'll be forever macking. I got no passion. I got no patience.
+
+[25:52] And I hate waiting. And then that's right. Check them out now. Check them out now. We do it.
+
+[26:12] We be Costco size pimping up in NYC, baby. I wonder what Jay-Z thinks of Dashi. I'm sure he doesn't want Dashi. Doesn't want Dashi or Bushy. That was like the best sound.
+
+[26:22] We might have to play that thing again. Love that stuff. Uh okay. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantries, uh, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies where only a few grams are needed per application?
+
+[26:37] Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[26:51] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries Pure Coat B790, a modified cornstarch that can be used to create films, glasses, and fruit leathers. Glasses.
+
+[27:09] Glasses. Not that kind of glass, Tony. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of Pure Coat to play with. Simply use the promo code CI76 when placing your order order online at modernistpantry.com.
+
+[27:24] Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. I've never used cr um, I've used uh crisp coat, but I've never used pure coat. Crisp coat is like a batter uh coating. These things like these film formers they use for things when you're frying, they form a film so that grease theoretically can't penetrate, and they also help with batter adhesion. Uh and you, you know, things like this you usually use in like uh so like in flour, you use like a 10% by weight to fry things.
+
+[27:50] Uh but I haven't used it in a long time because my frat coating is good enough. I don't need any crisp coat or pew coating. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. It's all good stuff.
+
+[27:58] Uh especially if you're gonna do something like um oh like uh tenpura stuff. But this stuff sounds like it's not actually used for for that. It's used more to do uh to cast like like glasses and fruits and sheets of uh starch. I'm sure it's great stuff. I just don't have that much experience with it.
+
+[28:15] Okay. Second cocktail question is on gel-an ice cubes. Um I'm trying to find it. Okay. I know that you've made gel-in ice cubes before.
+
+[28:25] I'm intrigued by the concept of a non-melting ice cube, especially if it could be uh better heat retention than a standard ice. Plus, it'd be cool to have an edible cocktail within a cocktail. My question is have you had any success getting the gel and to stay clear when frozen? Maybe a different hydrocoloric combination would work. No, it won't it will not stay clear.
+
+[28:41] It just won't stay clear. I've not tried that actually. Yeah, it won't stay clear. I've worked with uh medicellularized before. Yeah.
+
+[28:47] We might like absinthe ice cubes and put them on the spoon and then lit them and then they melt melted. After they cool. Yeah. Yeah. But and they clear when they're when they melt, but they're when they're solid, they're white.
+
+[29:00] Yeah. Especially with Hapsinth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[29:03] Uh I mean, gentlemen, here's the thing. When you use uh any sort of uh hydro for like to lock in water that's frozen for cooling, you're never gonna get quite the cooling power. I mean you'll get theoretically the cooling power, but what happens is when you're chilling with ice, the outside layer of the ice melts. That water instantly goes into your cocktail, chills and dilutes. When you've locked the water into a hydrocolloid, uh you have an uh uh believe it or not, water is a better insulator than ice.
+
+[29:31] So you inhibit the chilling effect of the ice that's on the inside of the cube as it goes. So it will keep a drink cool, but it's never going to be as effective as ice. Ice is a damn effective chilling agent. Uh what I did do uh recently, because they were quite small. I have to go on Ellen, the Ellen uh have to.
+
+[29:51] I'm going to Ell, I'm going to be on Ellen de Generous uh later this week for her St. Paddy's Day cocktail. And uh they didn't want any of the drinks that we actually had on our menu. I don't think. I guess I don't know, not a fan.
+
+[29:59] I don't know. But uh they uh so there's all these uh kind of uh I'm doing a bunch of wacky stuff. So if you watch it's not stuff that you would actually see at the bar. But one of the things I'm doing is uh breaking apart raspberries with liquid nitrogen and then using the raspberry beads the as basically uh ice cube BBs to shake a drink to chill a drink that's already been diluted and it chills it down, and then you know you get the raspberries and you drink it with a straw and you suck them up like you know, in the like you know, in your mouth, it's like that pretty much. So stuff like that.
+
+[30:34] So you can shake with uh frozen fruit. Um one of my favorite techniques is that what with limes as well? I don't know, probably little lime pips. Yeah, grapefruit works. Uh huh.
+
+[30:43] I haven't tried lime because the lime, the vesicles are so small. Uh I mean, you know, one of my favorite uh it is not gonna give you a cocktail within a cocktail, but one of my favorite things to do, especially at home if you don't have a lot of gear, is uh to f is when you're using non uh non concentrated mixers like grapefruit juice or apple juice, freeze them solid like ice cubes and then shake them uh instead of with ice because they break into a slush because you know, juice doesn't freeze as hard. Yeah. So they break into a slush in the tins and then uh and it gets really freaking cold and your dilution's always right because you just shake it till the whole son of a bitch turns to a slush. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:19] Numbing. Yep. Uh okay. So let me see. I'm I gotta now I gotta try and split between just like Tony and I having uh uh a conversation and uh and some of these questions because you guys have a uh a lot of questions in.
+
+[31:33] Uh let me go uh to uh let me see. Oh, here's a here's a here's a here's a good one. Okay. Uh Stephen Garrett from Wellington, New Zealand. You ever been to New Zealand?
+
+[31:44] I've not yet. I'd love to go. Yeah? Yeah. Because you're a Xena Warrior Princess fan?
+
+[31:44] Uh Lord of the Rings, I think. Lord of the Rings? See, I'm uh like Lord of the Rings, like I never really I saw like one or two of them, but you know, I like you know, Xena like hit me right at the right time, like you know, Xena. Uh there's a question that uh you missed last week about hearts and cooking. I'd love to hear a little about tartar of heart.
+
+[32:05] You ever had heart tartare? I've never actually had it. No, I've not either. But I'm sure it's good. I mean, one of the problems with Oregon meats is they have to be really fresh because the way that they're processed and cut out, they tend to spoil quickly because they're exposed to more bacteria than whole muscle cuts, right?
+
+[32:17] I mean, that's just a kind of a fact of life. Hearts probably are okay because they are a big whole muscle cut. You just wash off the outside or whatever, trim it. Uh I've never actually had uh um heart tartar, but I did look up uh basically most of the recipes I found online trace back to a friend of mine, Chris Constantino, who is known for his cooking of uh, you know, awful meaning uh awful, not awful, you know, awful. There you go.
+
+[32:40] Uh and he has a beef heart uh tartar Pudonesca style. That means uh torn-up hearts in the style of whores. Right? Yeah, that's kind of that translation. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:51] It's not far off. Yeah, horse style heart heart chop. Anyway, uh kind of see where you're getting with it. Yeah, yeah, anyway. So uh yeah, he has a recipe.
+
+[33:00] It's very easy uh to find and it looks interesting, but I've not had it. I'm sure it's good, kind of chewy. I mean, are you a meat tartar kind of a guy, Tony? Uh I can be. Although I've not had that, but I've kind of partial to tartar.
+
+[33:13] Yeah, right? A little acid, a little you know, he has some interesting stuff. And so I just look up uh, you know, look up his uh thing. Also, following up on the soda stream, the carbonate alcohol, soda stream. I don't know if they have that in UK soda stream.
+
+[33:24] Yeah, you do, yeah. It's the home carbonator. Uh I you know, I've recommended for a while adding an extra tube to it so that the tube can dip down low enough so that you can get it into alcohol and carbonate it without getting foam over, basically. Uh so following up on the soda stream to carbonate alcohol, it works. Uh extending the tube to the bottom of the bottle, but it uses a lot of gas.
+
+[33:40] Uh to make wine sparkle, you have to carbonate, vent, carbonate, vent, and carbonate and let it sit pressurize for a good few minutes, and it has to be almost ice cold. Everything you've said is true. But that's the only damned way to carbonate something properly. Yeah. Is uh you know, if you come to the bar and you see us carbonate, we're we'll carbonate four or five three you know, between three and five times on any of our drinks, um, just to get rid of all of the little nucleation sites that are in it so that we get a nice stable bubble and we have it more than ice cold.
+
+[34:09] In fact, one of the big things I have to beat out of uh the bartender's heads is to put uh the our carbonated drinks on ice, because ice is only at zero, right? And our carbonated drinks are at like minus eight. So, you know, when they when they're putting it uh when they're putting it on uh on ice, they're warming it. You know, so it's like I'm like, don't do don't do that. Do you add water to the uh mix pre carbonate it with with the alcohol?
+
+[34:34] Because a lot of the I've tasted alcohol that's been made sparkling and the flavor is very, very old. Yeah, so we like I I once did uh bottle bottle strength carbonation, and if you're gonna carbonate something at bottle strength, it has to be absurdly cold, like minus eighteen C. You know. Um otherwise the perception of alcohol is just crazy. If you get it down to a temperature where like let's say you're gonna do let's just use straight gin.
+
+[35:01] Yeah. Right. If you're gonna get it down to a temperature where it's like syrupy in the freezer, then and and you carbonate it, it's quite enjoyable. But as it starts to warm up even a little bit, it's to me kind of unpleasant. And then if you add anything like a sugar or an acid to it for flavor, it it just goes way out of balance.
+
+[35:19] And I think the main uh problem that people do when they uh when they're carbonating liquor is uh they serve it at two high proof. So, you know, if you're if you're um serving uh you know, a stirred cocktail is gonna be probably somewhere in the area of like 17, 18%, and a a shaking cocktail. I have to go do the math again, but a shaking cocktail is gonna be somewhere down closer to like fourteen, fifteen percent. But like a a carbonated cocktail should really be all the way down at like twelve. You know, it's a yeah.
+
+[35:51] Yeah, you know, so if you look at the proportions of uh classic cocktails, they're about that. We used uh uh if you see that machine, the alkalizer that measures all the kind of uh bricks, but also the kind of ABV. So we were shaking you have one? Well, we borrowed one. It was very expensive, but we borrowed one of a uh a company.
+
+[36:06] What's it called and Tom Pow alkalizer? Is it awesome? It's it really is awesome. Cause you you can check all the um uh you know the bricks percentage but also the ABVs. Uh and we were talking to Harold about the the the perfect parameters of where flavor will hit and where you taste the best.
+
+[36:25] Uh and it was between f uh uh I think between 14 and 19. So within those kind of you know parameters you've got like a uh you know the most enhanced um amount of flavor in a cutter. When you carbonate that punches stuff up, which is why you have to drop the I always drop the alcohol level in a carbonated drink. Yeah. But I mean with the Tom Collins, you'd add slightly more sugar, but that kind of floats the flavor a little bit more anyway, so I mean it it's it's interesting problem, but most of the time, and I also remember when I first started carbonating, I would basically I would just shake a drink and then carbonate it.
+
+[37:03] And those are too alcoholic and end up tasting too syrupy and they fatigue your palate quite quickly. Whereas uh and they just taste a little bit off like the acid balance goes off a little bit, and you just add some like lighten it a little bit with water, you know, not a boatload, but you lighten it a little bit with water and the whole thing just becomes more pleasant as long as you keep the bubble level at you know the same. Are you guessing with um with uh come dark side are you using other gases too? Uh I have the ability to do a nitrous CO2 mix. Yeah.
+
+[37:39] Uh and when I make uh water, I use nitrous CO2 because I want to soften the bubbles a little bit. I want to have the same liveliness, but I want to soften the bubbles and nitrous is gonna soften it. Adds a little bit of sweetness and some creaminess, but really it just softens up that bubble. Um the CO2 can actually make things more acidic. Uh and it kind of registers as that.
+
+[38:01] Yeah, it it well I mean you know that like the the studies show that eventually it is your sour uh taste receptors that are responding to what an enzyme is doing to the CO2 or w the way a CO2 affects a particular enzyme pathway on your tongue. So it is related to acidity and it does actually produce acid, mean you know, carbonic acid, you know what I mean? Um but I think the f what carbonating a drink does um is really complicated. You know, um I find that uh if you taste a drink flat that you want carbonated in, it should taste a little too weak and a little low in acid, and also I like it a little low in sugar because something that tastes balanced as a sipping drink, like it just it gets like syrupy and almost soda like for me. And I don't want like a soda-like flavor in my cocktail.
+
+[39:00] You know what I mean? I suppose people see um because there were loads of tests over this. I think it was Bernard Lahouse from Food Pairing did loads of tests for on the aroma on top of cocktails that have been carbonated, and the results are so so varied and all over the place just because you know what you're adding to um the um mixes a hell of a lot of aroma because that CO2 is carrying and almost stripping the flavor into aroma and then taking it to the top of the drink. So you you've got a whole other kind of spectrum to look at, uh, rather than just flavor. I mean, because if you taste it in Manhattan, there is some aroma, but there's not as much.
+
+[39:38] Um so that kind of whole aroma spectrum kind of makes that it's a drill outside, isn't it? Uh it's a jackhammer, I believe, yeah. Um welcome to Roberta's. Well, uh we'll we'll kind of change your perception of the drink as well, and that can vary quite a lot. Yeah, and yeah, Manhattan is one that you're doing your entire perception is changed, and I think for the worse, I detest carbonated Manhattans.
+
+[40:03] I don't like them at all. I think they're hideous. In fact, I use that as the demo of when carbonation goes bad. The other thing is I think it's it's you can make very excellent carbonated rum drinks, but I think it's also very easy to go wrong with a carbonated rum drink. You know, they can taste, uh, they go from being a delicious drink to almost fake tasting.
+
+[40:24] There are great carbonated rum drinks. I've had other people's good carbonated rum drinks. I've made carbonated rum drinks that I also like, but it's like it's a difficult thing, I think, to do. You have to be spot on with your mix, I think, to carbonate uh a rum drink properly. Gin carbonates like nobody's business.
+
+[40:38] Like almost any gin drink can be made carbonated and it tastes delicious. Uh or can be made to taste uh uh delicious. Um it's difficult. Like it's difficult to do a carbonated tea beverage because the tannins get blown out. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:52] Like they they are or amped up is what I mean. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it can be it can be uh difficult. All right.
+
+[40:58] Jack, should we go to one more commercial break? 7184972128 cooking issues! But you heard about me. Don't be I am here to set you free. Don't let a stranger say your stories.
+
+[41:43] I got a place already for you. Don't be uh You can leave your beer behind. Can't you tell I'm in your corner? Don't you know I'm good for you, you'd be too much together. There is nothing we can do.
+
+[42:22] Oh no. Chicken. Welcome back to Cooking Issues here with Tony Camilliaro. Does everyone in England pronounce your name wrong? Is that why you always go by Tony C?
+
+[42:44] Yes. I'm sure I'm pronouncing it wrong, but I'm close enough, right? But you are close enough, yeah. I've had some horrendous uh versions. I mean it's quite funny whenever the post comes in.
+
+[42:52] I think we've collected about 400 different spellings so far of my name. Yeah. Just at the bar, yeah. So what's your f what's your favorite what's your favorite mispronunciation? Well, there was one with W's and Z in, which I you know is How the hell do you get that?
+
+[43:04] I have no idea. It's just one of those kind of mistakes. I mean the one you must most get all the time is Canigliaro. Mm-hmm. Cause that's like a baseball player that actually went by that here in the US.
+
+[43:14] Yeah, for the uh Boston Red Sox. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was Cunigliaro, not Corneliaro. Yeah. Right.
+
+[43:20] Yeah. Well anyway, so he goes by Tony C. Of course, you know, in England you are dealing with a country where they they, you know, they say spagball when they're talking about sp what is spagball anyway, that's spigar bolonese? Uh yeah, spigali bolognese. Yeah.
+
+[43:34] Spag. La bolognaise, yeah. Spag ball. Tony, by the way, uh true to his uh Italian name is uh what are you half Sicilian? Half Sicilian, yeah, my father's from Sicily.
+
+[43:45] You speak normal Italian or Sicilian or both? Uh I speak normal Italian. Uh Sicilian's like a complete different language that we didn't really learn. Uh it's kind of only spoken by Sicilian Sicilians. Yeah.
+
+[43:55] Yeah. I mean the the old word filters through, I think, but it's not as a as a whole. I don't know. Yeah. Were you were your uh family actually rabbit keepers back in the day?
+
+[44:05] I have no idea, but I do know that that name comes from one village. Uh and most kind of, you know, people that have that name, you know, have a line of heritage going back to a little village called Carini outside of Palermo in Sicily. Nice. Never been to Sicily. Someday.
+
+[44:22] Oh, it's lovely. Someday I'll get to go. And by the way, I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and apologize in advance to anyone whose questions I do not get to today. Uh, because uh, you know, Tony's not here every day. In fact, he's never been here before.
+
+[44:34] And so uh I'm gonna have a conversation with him somewhat. But if you have any questions for Tony, you still have a little bit of time to call in your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right. Uh quick one.
+
+[44:47] Uh just a recommendation someone has in. Tom Fisher from Lansdown PA, long time uh listener. Uh I'm looking to get a chamber vacuum sealer in the next month, and I've narrowed things down to the Vacmaster VP112 or the VP 215. I favor the VP 215 for the faster vacuum times, oil-based pump in choir operation, but it's huge, heavy, and $300 more. Is there any benefit to the home cook in getting the more expensive unit?
+
+[45:09] But look, both of these units are kind of in the uh sub $1000 chamber vacuum machine range. Um I have had nothing but bad luck with um any vacuum machine that doesn't have an oil based pump, the vacuum pump is just not strong enough. Now, that said, is it gonna seal a stake? Yeah, you know what I mean? It will.
+
+[45:30] Uh if you're out there to do uh like, you know, some of the hardcore uh like flash infusions, um, you know, if you're looking to do that kind of work with it, um you need a damn good vacuum in here. Yeah, oil based. Yeah, and so uh the one that that advertised itself as an oil based pump, uh I mean, but the problem with that unit, I looked it up, is that it's like s just in the middle. I mean, you can get a real good one from Mini Pack for like fifteen hundred with a real Bush vacuum pump in it. And this one's in the eight hundred dollar range.
+
+[46:04] I know the one I just recommended is twice the price, but I have this problem. I have a uh strange genetic disorder that once I get over a certain price, I'm like, God damn it, I need the real one. You know what I mean? It's like if it was like two hundred bucks, then I would just go ahead and get the one that was almost as good. But as soon as it's like eight hundred bucks, I'm like, oh hell, I need the real one.
+
+[46:25] You know what I mean? You know what I mean, Tony, right? I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah. And so um But then, you know, sometimes you do pay for for yeah, uh matter of fact machines we've got for over the years is is phenomenal, and it was only until we discovered multivac uh and we spent a bit of money on it that it's actually lost and we we put it through its paces and we you know we we we we don't just use it for the with the C V bags, we're sucking stuff out and uh and blah blah blah.
+
+[46:49] And some of the others just get cloaked up and just boo bruised battered and and destroyed because of that. But the multivac you clean out, then you can start all over again. Yeah, I mean uh you know, so the main commercial br uh brands that are available here in the US, like the multivac, the mini pack, the uh Koch, all of these, they all use uh this German vacuum pump called a Bush pump. And the vast majority of the price of the vacuum machine is determined by the cost of that pump. Bush pumps are just expensive, but they have some serious cojones on them.
+
+[47:20] And they, like Tony said, you know, you run those suckers and they go, and then they get uh gummed up because you're gonna vacuum water into them, not directly, but in the form of vapor, it's gonna contaminate it. And you just run those suckers and clean them out, and then they're good as new again. So you know, I don't know if the lesser vacuum pump, even if it's an oil-based pump, I mean, when it's brand new, it'll get down to the same vacuum levels as the bush, but the bush is like the time X of uh of uh you know vacuum pumps. That sucker just takes a lick and it keeps on ticking. There's a reason why all of the big companies use it.
+
+[47:57] And there's no way that a sub-1,000 chamber vacuum machine is gonna have a bush pump in it, right? And so what they're doing is and the rest of it, I mean, programming is great, nice seal bars, it's all fantastic, it's all great. Uh but uh what you're paying for with the more money is the awesome vacuum pump. Um, you know, the the rest of it, you know, isn't you know I'm sure it won't crush under its own vacuum. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:20] But uh so I would definitely go for it for occasional use. I would get the oil-based one. Uh you're gonna be, I think, less than satisfied with one that's not uh not oil-based. You could, if you're like me, rip the vacuum pump out of the other one and install a real oil-based pump as a separate thing, but now you're talking about spending extra money, time, and more space on your counter. Have you used a gastrovac?
+
+[48:42] Yeah. What do you think? Uh okay. I'm not a not a fan of the Gastrovac because theoretically it's meant to do kind of vacuum um vacuum frying, so it's built around a vacuum fryer, but uh its vacuum pump is weak. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:59] Compared now, you can hook the gastrovac up to the vacuum pump in a multi-vac, set the programming to be right, and you'd be damn good. The other thing is that um the Gastrovac, by the way, is uh is a modified pressure cooker with an acrylic lid and it goes to a vacuum pump and it lowers the pressure on the inside. So you could do infusions in oil or frying stuff like that. But the vacuum pump is just not that good. And that vacuum pump has no way to exhaust the water very well that you're sucking into it, so it gets bogged down very quickly.
+
+[49:26] Needs a cold trap. So, you know, I for Wiley once I did a test where I ran a coal I ran a uh a line, I I bypassed their vacuum, went directly into my vacuum pump, because I I use oil-based refrigerator vacuum pumps that's just like walk around vacuum pumps. Uh, you know, the ones that refrigeration technique technicians use uh because they're pretty cheap and you can fill the oil really quickly, they're easy to get to. Uh, and uh and used a liquid nitrogen coal trap, and then I got it to work, but as comes from the factory, I don't s I don't and and even when using it as infusion, I don't see why you wouldn't just use your vacuum machine. I mean, what do you do you have a good use for it?
+
+[50:02] Yeah, I mean we found that that we just just even with no heat, just kind of infusing the cook almost cold infusing the the the uh the cordials and stuff like that. But why not just use your chamber vac? Just because it's bigger, I think that's the only reason. Yeah. Because you can do like kind of two two to you know two to four liters in there rather than kind of having to keep putting things in and out and kind of closing it.
+
+[50:23] Well you know what, you know what I uh what what you should do I did once is just uh take and build a uh like a Lexan uh a Lexan lid for like a giant stock pot, and then you could just go ape ape shit, hook it up to a vacuum machine, and uh just go. Okay. Yeah. I did that once for for Wiley, like way back in the day before anyone had anything, and I've done it occasionally for myself when I'm like uh I use the Gastrovac pod action uh pot when I'm doing uh plaster casting. Because I'll I'll use it to de-aerate uh plaster, but you can probably go for that and buy like the large um basically de-aerators for model casting people because plaster shops use them and plastics shops use them to de-aerate resins and plaster before they pour them into molds, and they have some big pots.
+
+[51:11] And since your food's not gonna be directly in it, it's gonna be inside of another container in there. Yeah, who cares? You know, like what it's made out of. I think they're made out of probably like you know, plastic and aluminum or something like that. But I mean who who cares?
+
+[51:23] You know what I mean? The food's not gonna touch it, and then just make sure you got a good enough vacuum pump on it. Alright. Oh, our our pizza is showing up. Awesome.
+
+[51:33] So, uh, we got another we have you know, we have a we have uh some fans in Bergen, Norway, which I enjoy. Wow. Yeah, Norway. Out of Norway. Yeah.
+
+[51:41] I have uh have I Jack, have I already told my one Swedish joke on the air? Uh I don't think so. No? No, maybe I just want to hear it again though. Oh, you want to hear it again?
+
+[51:49] I only have one Swedish joke, and I use it to taunt Nils, my you know, longtime co-worker and and good friend, who's now back with Marcus Samuelson running all of his uh restaurant stuff. So uh, and only Swedes and Norwegians will get this one. Uh hey Tony, what's uh what's a Swede? It's uh a root vegetable. No, no, that's only in England.
+
+[52:10] What what's what's okay? What's a Swedish person? What's a Swedish person? You don't know? A Norwegian without the oil money.
+
+[52:19] Boom! Yeah. Studio audience like that one. Yeah, Norwegians love that one. Anyway, okay.
+
+[52:27] Hopefully, I haven't already told that one too many times on the radio. But you know, if if you have a if you have a like a Sweden Norway joke, you gotta pull it out every once in a while. I have no pony in that race, so it's like I can say whatever I want. Okay. Uh anyway, Arnie Skog from old uh from uh uh Arny Skog Olsen from Bergen Norway writes in and says, big fan of the radio show.
+
+[52:44] Uh highlight of his week and keep up the good work, you know. I hope you have a better week than having this be the highlight. Um I'm ac I'm actually your second listener from Bergen Norway. However, I'm writing you from Brooklyn as I'm here for a few days. I might even go to see you at Roberta's this Tuesday.
+
+[52:59] I don't know if he's in the audience, uh, because I don't know what he looks like. Uh audience. I I don't know if he's eating pizza out in the back, is what I mean. Is Indy Jesus on today, by the way? I don't think so.
+
+[53:08] He may He switched off Tuesdays. I saw him here the other day on a Sunday. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Uh anyway.
+
+[53:15] Uh New York City is great. I went with a colleague of mine. We're art critics to Booker and Dax, our bar. Uh I'm sorry I missed you. Uh we loved it, especially the gin and juice.
+
+[53:24] Gin and juice is a good drink. Uh really good drink. I like that drink. Uh, we went back a couple days later to have awesome whole pork button oysters at Momafuku Sam bar next door. Awesome.
+
+[53:33] A couple questions. We're gonna get calcium hydroxide like pickling lime in New York City. For some reason it's impossible to get uh in Norway. eBay works, but shipping is really expensive, and I'm here now. So by the way, I made rye tortillas, which is I have a recipe for on my blog, using sodium carbonate made by heating sodium bicarbonate, which worked, but the carbonate had no uh not such agreeable flavor to my palate.
+
+[53:54] Still awesome. Thanks for the Nyx Damal post on your blog from way back in the day. Yes, uh go to to get that stuff, go to Calustian's uh 123rd Street and Lex between 28th and 29th Street. Fantastic place for all your general weird spice news. Good place, right?
+
+[54:08] They have it, or at least they should have it. If they don't have it, it goes under a bunch of different names. Slaked lime, uh calcium hydroxide pickling lime. If you want to get the Thai version of lime paste in red or white, go to Bangkok Grocery on 104 Moscow. Moscow is in uh kind of Little Italy Chinatown area, uh over by where the five points district used to be, but call them ahead because sometimes they're out.
+
+[54:30] If you want actual cow from Mexico, go to El Tepeek Grocery on Lexington Avenue and like 103rd Street, and while you're there, stop by Kitchen Arts and Letter, the greatest cookbook store in the United States. Um anyway, yeah. Uh also uh an interesting question in same same same caller. On uh, you know, Lutfisk, have you ever had it? Lutfisk.
+
+[54:52] Lutfisk, it's the fish, it's the fish that it's like you take stockfish, uh, which is you know the one that's air-dried without the salt, and then you soak it in lye, and or you rehydrate it a little bit, then you soak it in lye, then you wash the lye out, and it turns all gelatinous and funky. No had that. It's kind of like a well-known thing that everyone who's not from there doesn't like. It's kind of like a slippery I haven't actually had it, but uh uh Harold McGee, uh our mutual friend Harold McGee, who's now in China, uh uh uh, you know, introduced me to a recipe for lye curing eggs really quickly. And so Nils and I did a uh a fake loot fisk where the egg was loot fisk flavored and the fish was just kind of cured regular fish.
+
+[55:31] It was good. Uh I liked it. Anyway, uh so this is for a weird uh dish, wondering whether you could do it. Long introduction to this, that he calls Lute, which means like lie, right? So Lütfisk is like lye fish.
+
+[55:44] And I can't pronounce the second part of it, but Lute Pinic jot. I don't know. Uh so this uh idea was proposed by a friend of mine. So uh he goes on to describe Lutfisk, a very old traditional Norwegian dish made from dry cod with lye. Uh but there's this other dish that is really famous there called Pin Pinic Yot, which I can't pronounce, which is the whole side of lamb, salted and dried, uh sometimes smoked, cut along the ribs to make sticks of meat, rehydrated for 24 hours to take the salt out, and then steamed until the salt uh till the meat falls off the bone.
+
+[56:18] This guy really likes it. So what he's wondering is, uh, and his Italian friend came up with this idea is can you make that stick meat with a lye solution, same way that you do loot fisk. Uh and basically he's wondering what happens to the fat. Will it turn to soap? Will it saponify with the calcium uh hydroxide or with lye or with other uh alkaline?
+
+[56:38] Uh and uh yes, I think it will. Yes. But the question is like how how long how long? I mean, I've tested it with chicken and like a little bit of chicken, and I've boiled chicken with uh calcium hydroxide and it tastes good in small amounts. But if you it look, apparently I did some research, and in Finland, uh if you if you overcure uh the Luthfisk uh there, they have a word for it called uh soap fish because you saponify the fats.
+
+[57:04] And if you think about it, the cod that you're using or whatever, ling or whatever you're using in Norway to make your Luthfisk is a very lean fish. And so there's very little fat to saponify in that fish. And so you typically don't do it on really kind of oily, oily fish. Uh so I would be wary. Uh I would use very lean cuts of uh meat, and uh I would not necessarily soak it in as high a solution or for as long, but you will get the tenderizing effect.
+
+[57:32] Look, alkaline tenderization is something that's used in China, for instance, with uh al alkaline solutions in meat to get really soft kind of meat textures in beef that's kind of cut thin, marinated uh in like a baking soda solution or lye solution, not lye, but uh alkaline solution, and then cooked. And they the you know, the the basic principle is that uh that the the uh the alkaline solution weakens the protein bonds and so therefore makes it um uh softer. Right. Uh and so it'd be interesting to try. A little bit of saponification is uh good and like lends some of the characteristic flavor to things like tortillas, but a lot of saponification equals soap.
+
+[58:09] And so uh it wouldn't necessarily be uh good. But anyway, uh Arnie, I I hope you try it. I hope you stop by Roberta's. Uh they wanted some recommendations, or someone else actually wanted some recommendations of places to eat. But uh Jack, do we have another show coming on the air?
+
+[58:27] We gotta wrap it up right now. Oh, all right. Listen, Tony, thanks for coming in. Pleasure. Uh anyone who's anyone who's in London, if you don't go to one of Tony C's bars, uh, you are a fool.
+
+[58:40] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information.
+
+[59:10] Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight. Oh, you dare to do that.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday. Joined again in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:35] How are you doing, Nastasha? Yeah. Strong. Yeah, so last week, uh, while I was here chilling with uh Tony Kinayaro in the in the studio, Nastasha was pretending to be me in Orlando, Florida, with the Bukey people, makers of our favorite rotovap. How'd that go?
+
+[0:53] Good. I get all the cool trips to Orlando. Dave goes to Sweden and Berlin. I know you're just the lucky one, aren't I? Lucky one.
+
+[0:59] Yeah, well, I told you you're supposed to uh get a free trip to uh Switzerland. For those of you that don't know, Nastasha is a uh a Switzerland lover. Italian Swiss lover. That they're German Swiss. It does not interest me.
+
+[1:10] So are you now insulting Bukey, who like may give us the I'm not, they love me. Alright. Call me all the Equations 2, 718497-2128. That's 718 497-2128. And Nastasha writes here that today is the Indy Jesus.
+
+[1:26] It's not Indie Jesus. I know Indy. Well, we haven't seen him in a while, but there's another one. No, no, he he he's here. He just doesn't work on Tuesdays.
+
+[1:31] I saw him on Sunday. This is like Indie Apostle. Right here, he's like a fail sh uh pale, pale shadow of the real Indie Jesus. That's a real nice dude. Oh yeah.
+
+[1:41] No, we're not saying he's bad. I'm not saying he's a bad human being. I'm saying he's a pale shadow of Indy Jesus and his Jesusness. That's all. That's all I'm saying.
+
+[1:49] Uh another note before we move on to more germane issues. Uh today, Nastasha tells me is the first day of spring. Uh, which is interesting that she cares about that because for those of you that are ever gonna meet Nastasha, never say to her that the weather is nice out. Never. It's not that she hates bad weather like I do.
+
+[1:59] I actually hate bad we uh good weather rather. I hate the sun, I hate everything about it. I'd be a cave uh dwelling uh troglown diet if I could. But uh Nastasha likes uh nice weather, but hates people in nice weather. Yeah.
+
+[2:17] True? I hate when they're happy. Yeah. You want to explain that for the folks? No, I just don't, I just don't like how people associate weather with their happiness, their level of happiness and productivity.
+
+[2:29] That's really deep. She's like, that person said it was nice out so that they're gonna have a go have a good time outside. Yeah. Those bastards. She hates that, right?
+
+[2:38] Yeah. What if they're hipsters? This is the worst combination of the thing. Worse, like a fair weather, happy hipster is like Nastasha Kryptonite. Okay.
+
+[2:48] This is from Elliot Papanow. I made corned beef sausage over the weekend. The idea came from Rob Levitt at the Butcher and Larder in Chicago, a place I've never been. I haven't been to Chicago in a couple years, though. I used to go to the NRA show, you know, the National Restaurant Association, not the rifle show.
+
+[3:01] Uh but uh, you know, budgets being what they are, I haven't been in a while. Anyway, uh the corned beef sausages were outstanding. Corned beef, potato, carrot, cabbage, cooked, ground, and stuffed. Um I did it the same way you would do a boudon noir. Uh served it with some sauerkraut, which is delicious, and mustard on a rye uh sausage roll.
+
+[3:17] Uh I think the dish would also work. It presented like Dave Chang's hot brown. Uh I had to go look up Dave's hot brown hot brown, as you may or may not know, is a very famous uh Kentucky dish from the Brown Hotel in Louisville based on kind of like a Welsh rare bit kind of thing, which I I used to love Welsh rare bit, which is just toast with like a cheese sauce over the top. You ever like you ever have that? Mm-mm.
+
+[3:37] Has nothing to do with rabbit, it's not Welsh Rabbit, Welsh rare bit. It's basically a toast with cheese sauce. It's good stuff, but it's like it's got like some white wine in the cheese sauce, so it's a little like van dude. You like it actually. Sounds good.
+
+[3:44] Yeah. Anyway, uh, so this is a take on that, but of course, because it's Kentucky, they throw a bunch of meat in it, so it's got like turkey and uh and bacon and whatnot. So Dave Chang turns out. I hadn't seen it before, it was in Lucky Peach. I go did uh I looked at the video on the web and it had uh our boy Nick Wong in it.
+
+[4:03] But the funny thing is Nick Wong was, you know, one of our great uh interns uh back at the FCI, worked at uh at uh Sambar, Momofuku Sam bar for many years. Fantastic guy. I think he's he th the video was shot after Nick left. I think he was just there to pretend to be Dave Chang to see if there were anyone would notice because he used to walk around Sambar with a hat pulled over his head and rush up on people as though he were Dave Chang to freak people out. Anyway, so what Dave did was to lighten it up by rolling it in a tube in saran, uh, like you know, like our meat glue tubes, like like or Mills' meat glue tubes more accurately.
+
+[4:37] But it was turkey with uh, I forget it was in the there's another layer, oh, country ham, which is delicious. Uh, and then uh he put uh gel-an set uh like a Mornay sauce in the middle of it. Uh fried it up, served it with a delicious looking broth. Anyway, interesting. So yes, you probably could do it that way, Elliot.
+
+[4:52] Anyway, second. Uh I sent Dave a question about smoking tomatoes in the past. I vaguely remember that. You remember that? Not really.
+
+[4:59] Remember I said you had to dry them out first? Anyway. Uh, and just read in the Wall Street Journal about the fatty cues, smoked tomato bloody merry. Have you tasted it or tried to make your own at BDX? I have not.
+
+[5:10] Uh in fact, we haven't done any sort of smoked anything uh at uh the bar. And the main reason is because I have a bunch of friends who are very well known for doing smoky uh drinks. I mean, we use smoke in the form of uh mezcal or uh certain scotches that have a smoky note, but we haven't actively smoked anything because if I smoked uh a syrup, uh Evan uh Freeman would come up to me and be like, smoking syrup now, what are you making smoke coke next? Right? Which uh, you know, I don't want to hear from because Evan likes to rib me anyway, right?
+
+[5:46] So I don't want to give him anything extra rib me on. And then uh if I did something with meat like bacon, uh Don Lee and also Evan Freeman would come up and be like, Really, Dave? Really? Really? Smoky bacon?
+
+[5:58] Anyway, so uh I'm sure it's delicious. I haven't tasted it, I would love to taste it, but it's not something I can put on the bar menu without having a bunch of my friends come down on me like a ton of bricks. What do you think, Stuff? Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
+
+[6:09] Okay. This in from Andrew. Uh I was hoping you could talk about the possibility of using just Pectonex Ultra SPL for enzymatic peeling. Uh Pectinex Ultra SPL is the magical enzyme that we use that you can get from modernistpantry.com. Anyway, it uh it eats any kind of pectin and hemicellulose.
+
+[6:28] I use it for French fries, I use it for enzymatic peeling, which we're about to talk about in a minute. I use it to clarify all of our juices. Anyway, I believe rec uh uh I believe I recall uh reading or hearing that a thousand grams of water, aka a liter, uh a thousand grams of water, uh, and three grams of pectinx uh solution um water mixed with three grams of pectinex was sufficient if a 12 hour refrigerated soak is used basically to peel fruit enzymatically to get rid of the membranes. Alright? I peeled my citrus and vacuum sealed it using a chamber sealer uh in a thousand grams, put three uh thousand grams of water, three grams pectanex, and let it soak for twelve hours.
+
+[7:02] When I came back, most of the pith was a gooey texture, easily washed away. Unfortunately, the membrane between the segments was still intact and needed to be carefully removed. The exposed portion of the membrane was mostly dissolved. In the future, if just using pectanex, I will need to s uh will I need to separate each segment or is there another time saving method? I bagged a mixture of Caracera oranges, uh, Rio Star grapefruit, blood tangerine, key shoe mandarin, and mini oletangelo.
+
+[7:26] All had similar results, but some are more easily peeled. Uh thanks to the great show, and I'll be in New York this summer and plan on hitting up Booker and Dex. Okay. Uh yes, Pectenex Ultra SPL is all you need. Uh but and you actually don't even need a vacuum sealer for this guy.
+
+[7:38] Uh your main mistake, and you don't even need to soak it that long, and it doesn't need to be in the fridge. In fact, it's gonna act longer, act faster if you just uh keep it out. We usually keep ours uh, you know, at in in warm room temperatures so the enzyme uh acts faster. Um that's just what we do. Um now I mean you can use a vacuum to get it into the pith faster, but you do need to separate out the segments.
+
+[8:00] Even with a vacuum, if you put a whole peeled uh citrus in a bag, uh it's not gonna penetrate into the inner membranes. It's just not. Uh and then by the time you broke them apart, it just never seems to work as well. So, what you want to do, it might eat through one membrane. You want to break them into as small segments as you can without breaking the actual segments apart, or without actually cutting into uh the vesicle.
+
+[8:22] So grapefruits are fairly easy. The hard ones are things like pomelo, uh, and those you just kind of split it in half and then in quarters, and there's so much pith in a pomelo that a lot of times you can eat between it as long as you break it into smaller pieces and let it soak uh, you know, for a while. I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't do it at refrigeration temperature because I think that's just going to uh just slow things down. Uh, another thing, you want to keep the peels, uh, try to keep them as whole as possible, put them in the bag with it, and it'll eat the white albedo away from the peel and you get these amazing uh peels. There's um I thought we used ice water, wasn't it?
+
+[8:56] I bagged it when I used a vacuum machine. I bag it with ice water so that I can get a good vacuum seal on it. And then I would remember to throw it into a hot water bath, warm water bath to heat it back up, melt out the ice and get the enzyme cooking. I didn't want to make it that complicated, but that's actually the way that's actually the way I do it when I do it. You can go on uh cooking issues.com, which is still up, even though I haven't written on it in a long time.
+
+[9:16] And there's a whole article there I did on enzymatic peeling with uh all of my procedures. I don't use three grams per liter, I think I use four. I use four now, maybe I use three back when I wrote it, but we typically use four now. You can never know exactly how good the enzymatic activity is of your batch depending on how old it is. And four always seems to work, and it's not gonna add any off flavors, and it's not particularly more expensive when you're using it in restaurant quantity, right?
+
+[9:38] Mm-hmm. If you're gonna do the peels, sometimes a toothbrush is helpful to scrape away all the uh melted albedo. That's a gross word, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[9:49] All right. Anyway, you wanna go to our first marsh break? Okay. Yeah. Our first commercial break, call your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[9:55] That's 718497-2128 cooking issues. Come on, I give it a day, give it a Well excuse me, take a few minutes to mellow out. Big Daddy Cain is on the mic, and I'ma tell about a minimum limp of wild strength and power. So listen to the man of the hour. Flow and go to a slow tempo, and you know, sing whole swing low then yo, the show will go on.
+
+[10:21] So before, transforming the stage. I got the septic car, but I'm not elevated like a cartoon. I'm a real shooting lyrics like a hard pool. Across the crowd, the listeners, the spectators, so let's groove with the smooth bobarator. Sounds so smooth.
+
+[10:55] The B-I-G-D-A-D-D-Y-K-A-N-E. I'm good plenty. Serve a many and in it. Competition, wishing for an expedition. I'm straight up displaying.
+
+[11:04] Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Alright. Now uh last week, because I had uh Tony here, I didn't make it to all of the questions from last week. So Nastasha Wrightly says I should go over last week's questions before I go over this week's questions. So from Joel Gargano.
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+[11:18] Hello guys. I'm in a really weird and interesting corporate kitchen, cafeteria, really, here in New Haven. New Haven. I lived in New Haven for many years. I was at Yale and I lived there for two years afterwards.
+
+[11:26] Nice town. I actually like New Haven. Anyway, uh feeding lunch to the company's employees. I wonder what company it is. Hmm.
+
+[11:31] Anyway. Uh being a trained chef and working in a fine uh working in fine dining as a cook for the past ten years. I took the opportunity to not only run my own kitchen, but experiment as much as possible and throw some cool shiznit out to the staff. I'm a bread baker, second generation, charcuterie, not DI we ups uh DIY obsessive and really into modernist technique. For example, I'm doing all my deli meats brine and then sous videos uh sous videes, both salami and fresh sausages, and they're all coming out killer doing charcuterie in an office building.
+
+[11:56] Weird. They all come through the buffet line pulling house made bread and freshly cooked and or cured meats and put them onto plastic cafeteria trays, walk to their high school appropriate lunch table and discuss marketing strategies. It's pretty hilarious. Thought I'd share that with you guys. The movement is all over the place.
+
+[12:09] That's nice, right? Good people are using I like that stuff. The question. I'm currently attempting to create some vegan desserts for select crew of the company using hydrocolloids. I developed a super good chocolate mousse, appropriate for an ISI, that's the whipped cream makers, using VersaWhip, which is uh either soy protein or uh uh milk protein, depending on uh what it is, whey or soy protein, and Ultra Tex eight, which is a pre-cooked scar starch.
+
+[12:31] Total success. Soy whipped cream, however, is totally failing. I need some help. What type of hydrocolloid should I use for this? Xanthan and LBG, which is locust bean gum, turn it into snot.
+
+[12:40] So Xanthan is known to do that. Xanthan is the snotty gum if you use it in too high a quantity. And I tried to use uh versa whip minus a xanthan gum and LBG, but got it a runny mess. I'm assuming that the chocolate works so well because it stabilizes the mixture while the soy milk does not. Uh if the fat content of this is the fat if the fat content of soy milk is messing with me, should I try gelatin?
+
+[12:59] Well, you shouldn't try gelatin if you want it to be vegan gel, that's for sure. Although not if you're gonna tell anyone, right? Right. Yeah. Uh if you want to try something that's like gelatin that might whip into it, uh they make a um uh carrageenin is uh agar, people use agar, but I wouldn't.
+
+[13:14] People typically use carrageenin uh for things like this, and in particular they use a specialist carragenin for whipping. If you're gonna make marshmallows called genutine. And genutine is made by the CP Kelco Corporation, and it's specifically a carrageen that's meant to be a gelatin replacer for applications like marshmallows, aka things that need to be whipped and hold their texture well. Now, uh I think I looked up, there's a uh, I think what it is is it's a lack of fat, is the problem, is why it's not it might whip up, but it's not uh holding its its whipping. I looked up a uh like an in-can, like a ready whip situation, uh soy whip topping that's available, I think, mainly in the UK, called Soyatu.
+
+[13:53] And luckily, their ingredient list was on the web, so I read it. It's organic soy milk, uh, organic coconut oil, organic fat uh fractionated palm curl oil, organic sugar beet syrup, maltodextrin, tartaric acid, carragainin, sea salt, uh, and vanilla extract. Okay, so let's break this down one by one. Soy milk is the main thing that you want to make out of. It's what you want to whip up, right?
+
+[14:14] They've added coconut oil and palm kernel oil, probably to get something that's fairly solid. I think you're gonna want a fairly solid fat, like a coconut uh style thing, like coconut fat mixed with a little coconut milk, maybe something that's gonna give it some body that is a uh a fat that is fairly solid at refrigerator temperatures because it's gonna give you more body. Um okay. And then um they're adding uh maltodextrin, and I wal sugar for for sugarness, obviously. They're adding maltodextrin, what that's doing is adding some extra mass, some body to the uh soy milk and giving it extra kind of whipping properties.
+
+[14:47] Tartaric acid is probably there uh just for flavor. Uh and carrageenin is there as the uh caragina is there as the gelling agent, which is gonna be a whipping uh a whipping agent, and it's going to be uh also something that's gonna provide some structure after it's been whipped. Uh I would guess they add a little bit of something called iota carrageenin in whipped because carragean is their blend, because it will reform a gel after it stands still. Vanilla's just for flavor, and they add nitrous oxide to whip it. So I would do that.
+
+[15:14] I would add fat, first of all, is gonna get you a higher whipping uh quality on it. I would have it be cold as hell, same way you would with whipped cream. Uh I would add uh some maltodextrin, and I would use some carragainin, preferably uh genutine, uh, in the mix with it. Uh and you should be able to get a good you should be able to get a good result. Yeah?
+
+[15:31] Yes. Yes. Okay. Uh, and by the way, I thought you think this is funny as that when I was researching it. Uh, one of the first people to come out with vegan marshmallows were using a vegan gelatin replacer from this uh company called Eames.
+
+[15:44] And it turns out that these v uh these guys, it was kosher gelatin, right? And it was advertised that it was vegan. Turns out the whole thing was made out of regular gelatin. And they were just selling it to all these vegans and these kosher guys, and it literally, like, what happened is like this uh woman who was making vegan marshmallows, she like quit her job in finance or law or something like that and became a vegan marshmallow maker. She called up the guy and was like, hey, are these mar uh is this uh gelatin?
+
+[16:09] Is this totally vegan? And he's like, Yeah, this vegan, what's vegan? You know what I mean? So the company ended up going out of business, and uh yada yada, blah blah. Did you see Ellen had a how to be a vegan on her website?
+
+[16:21] I did not. Yeah. I was on Ellen last week for St. Patty's Day, and uh she turns out to she's a vegan. She's a nice lady, though.
+
+[16:29] She seems very nice. Well, I I didn't mean it like that. Only you mean things like that. She's a nice lady, though. No, I just look look, people want it.
+
+[16:36] It had nothing, they're unrelated, they're unrelated statements. Like people always want to know is the person a nice person. Oh, Jesus, you know, Anastasia, she's just like you're a crazy person. But you know what's funny? I show up at the show and the producers, very nice, were said, uh, you know, Ellen, I was making alcoholic drinks, duh, for St.
+
+[16:52] Patrick's Day, you know, because I'm you know I'm at a bar, and uh they were like, you know, Ellen is not gonna be able to drink drink the alcohol because she's shooting two shows. She shoots two shows on a Thursday. And I was like, crap. And then so I had to go in, I was trying to make all these non-alcoholic versions that looked like and tasted similar to the ones. The mint, I did a mint drink, it's impossible to do it non-alcoholic because the mint turns brown.
+
+[17:12] Anyway, um, so she shows up and she's like, What are you talking about? I'll drink it. I was like, Yeah, Ellen! Yeah! And then she slams some Jameson.
+
+[17:21] What? Yeah, she's pounding Jameson, like, I'm kidding, she didn't. She didn't, she just took a sip. My kids, you know, who never don't know Ellen, I was like, it's Dory from Nemo. They were like, crap, you met Dory?
+
+[17:31] That's freaking awesome. Uh anyway, this uh question in this is uh this is a long one from uh Ollie uh, do you think it's collette or collet? I don't know, collette. You know, collette, call it, collette. Anyway.
+
+[17:43] First of all, I'd like to say how much I've enjoyed listening to your show over the past few months. I say months because I only discovered the show recently and spent most of my commute to and from work catching up with every single podcast. Well appreciate it, Ollie. Appreciate it. It's really refreshing to hear a cooking show from people who understand the practical application of science in cooking and who are not afraid of using ingredients and methods with other which others might deem foolish or which might foolishly dismiss, or both, maybe.
+
+[18:03] I do have lots of questions I like to ask, but I thought I'd keep things brief. Sorry for not calling you up to us. Do the time differences in the UK, the show overlap with when I'm on my way home, make from work making things difficult. I was wondering what your thoughts were on seasoning meat. Taking steak and as an example, I tend to uh season roughly an hour in advance, generously sprinkle the salt, uh sprinkle the salt, and occasionally adding a small amount of minced mixed uh minced garlic with the salt.
+
+[18:25] After an hour, I'll wipe off the excess moisture before cooking using the sear flip every 20, 30 seconds method. That's the McGee special, where you flip it a bunch of times to get a more even heat, and it's a good way to approximate uh it's a good way actually to approximate kind of either a rotisserie or a low temp cook uh using a regular thing because the the heat meat never overheats all the way through. It's a basically a very high instantaneous heat input, but a low average heat input. Good technique. Anyway, this method seems to work very well, but it does raise some questions.
+
+[18:50] Uh first, you have of course covered on your blog about how if you are cooking a steak C V'd, you should not salt the meat pre-sear unless you're serving it immediately. If you're only salting it afterwards, would does not result in an inferior flavor due to the salt only being on the surface and not seasoning through the meat. I guess I'm looking for further tests between salt cook serve and salt chill salt serve. Second, is the seasoning well in advanced method only really useful for less tender cuts or cuts that have not been dry aged for any serious length of time, which will contain more moisture, or should it always be used? I did notice that when Heston Blumenthal has covered steaks in two separate cooking shows, he's never really talked about seasoning as if he ha as if it had much importance, which I found odd.
+
+[19:26] But maybe I'm thinking it's more of an issue than it really is. Now, okay, now look. Here's the deal. If I'm going to serve a steak right away, and by right away I mean within a couple of hours, I always season the meat beforehand because yes, I do think it probably makes uh a better tasting steak. However, that it's not just seasoning and uh retaining of moisture, the textural difference and the color difference of a steak that's been salted a long time in advance, let's say three hours, four hours in advance, is not it's just not nearly as good to me as a steak uh than it would be if you didn't salt it beforehand.
+
+[19:58] And so um you know, the any advantage, which is relatively minor of salting the meat, I mean it's there, I agree, but relatively minor compared to the textual breakdown of the meat uh from over salting beforehand, uh I just don't think it's worth it. So I'm t I tend not to salt meat beforehand. Now, when I'm serving a steak, I almost always will slice, I first of all I salt the bee Jesus off the out of the steak, uh outside of the steak right before I sear it. Like you know, you know how in like uh a home cooked when they sear uh well, nothing when you know, when most people sear a steak, doesn't matter where they're working, they they put a small amount of salt on the outside. Uh look, when you're searing steak people, put an absurd amount of salt on the outside before you sear it because most of it's gonna come off anyway.
+
+[20:38] You know what I mean? So sear the heck out of it. Uh and then uh I find that the advantages of pre-salting way beforehand aren't nearly as great. Also, I tend to cut my steaks before I serve them and serve them in pieces so I can also salt the uh the cut face if I need to. It's not uh a situation, for instance, like bread, where if you don't salt it beforehand, you your bread is gonna be awful like the Tuscan spray, although Nastasha claims to like Tuscan bread, even though everyone in the world knows it tastes awful, you know, right?
+
+[21:07] Right. You like it, right? Yes. Why? I just like it.
+
+[21:10] Why? Maybe it's memory oriented. Do you is it the sallow, disgusting crust, or is it the lack of flavor in the crumb that you like best? Both. Anyway.
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+[21:20] Um, so the the thing is, is uh it's not the same as that. It's also not the same as when you're cooking something in a braise and you under salt it and then you don't get the seasoning all the way through and something that's long cooked like a pot roast or something like that. Because in a situation like that, you're relying on the seasoning penetrating the meat for the flavor of the dish. Anyway, uh that's just my uh that's just my two my two cents. That makes sense to us.
+
+[21:44] Yeah. Uh my other question is regards to New York City. I know someone calls some time ago about places to visit, and I did note down some of them, but I think you mentioned you would email a list of suggestions to them personally for bars restaurants. We're gonna be heading over what? True.
+
+[21:56] Yes. We're gonna be heading over for a week on the first leg of my two-week tour of gluttony. The following week, we're on uh we're on a Grant Akitz uh pilgrimage to Chicago for next slash Alinea slash aviary place. Uh we've never been. Uh I've been to you know, a Linny, of course.
+
+[22:08] Uh, we have a pretty tight schedule, but I thought I would ask for some feedback on what I've got down so far during my first week of April. Uh gonna go to Kaijutsu. Nastash, you're supposed to make your vegan face, but you've been, right? Kaijutsu no. That's the Japanese temple food place, the one that's or the it's um vegan or supposed to be really, really good.
+
+[22:25] WD50, gotta go to WD50, my brother-in-law Wiley, his joint, Mamafuku Sam, and Noodle Bar, and then if you're there, go to BDX. Uh per se. That's Tony's favorite place. She mentioned it last night. Roberta's.
+
+[22:36] Yeah, Tuesday. Although listen, if you want to see N D G's, this turns out Sunday at lunchtime. Sunday is appropriate to see Indy's I haven't even thought of that. That's crazy. Uh, and 11 Madison Park.
+
+[22:46] Uh, I think we could squeeze one more nice meal, and I'm basically left with going for one of the nice uh sushi places like Yesuda, Massa's way out of uh uh league budget wise. No, no, go to Bar Massa. It's it's it's the same and it's amazing, and you aren't losing anything. Yeah? Yes.
+
+[22:58] Now see, here is good information from the start. The rare piece of good. It's the only thing I've ever said. Oh, no, for N is Bash. No, but it is true.
+
+[23:07] Barmasa, same thing, less money. Amazing. Yeah? Yes. Alright, was that on your list that you had in your email list?
+
+[23:14] Probably. Uh, and Blue Hill at Stone Barnes. Um, as another place he's looking to go. Anyway, so what we're gonna do uh is at the end of the show, if there's time, Nastasha's gonna read out her email list. My phone is not recognizing the word restaurant in any I've never typed restaurant.
+
+[23:29] iPhones iPhones. Yeah, well, maybe next week we can start the show with Nustachia's reading off a list of stuff. Yeah. And don't forget to come to Booker Index Bar uh from Ali Collette, all the way from London, England. And so let's go to our second commercial break.
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+[23:42] Call of your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Cooking issues. The devil's devil has a couple food. My culture's cruel, cause this word is misconstrued.
+
+[24:33] Small countries exempt from food, cause leaders have different views. You choose. What mean the world to me is being free. Live and let live and just let it be. Let it be.
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+[24:42] Love, peace, and harmony. One universal family, one God, one aim and one destiny. Imagine life without a choice at all. Given a vote, without a vote. And welcome back to Cooking and Shoes.
+
+[24:53] Call your questions to 718497-2128. 7184972128. Coming out a question from last week. I can't remember whether I answered it, so I'll answer it again if I did last week. Stephen Garrett wrote in with two questions.
+
+[25:04] I think I only answered one. The second one comes off the tale of Rulman, that's uh, you know, Ruleman from Soul of a Chef, and who writes all of uh Thomas Kell not writes all of them, whatever Thomas Keller books, uh and also Shirkutery, uh Pulson Ruman. Anyway, uh leaving his stock on the stove, the heat not on for days uh on end, and heating it up to the boil as he needs it, and subsequently, Harold McGee, our buddy Harold McGee, still in China, I think. Uh what? Cool.
+
+[25:27] Yeah. Uh calling him out for unsafe food practice. So so basically Rulman wrote this article or this blog post where he's like, hey, listen, our great grandpappies didn't have uh you know a refrigerator to put the stock in, so we would just leave it out, and then the next day we would boil it again before we used it, kill all the nasty stuff, and then that's it. Go, come on. I'm not dead yet.
+
+[25:44] Come on, Grandpappy. Well, he is dead, but you know, anyway, not from that. And then McGee was like, so I think the Times asked McGee to comment on this. And uh McGee was like, Well, I mean, of course the odds are that nothing bad is gonna happen, but there are things that can happen, especially if it's not brought up properly, etc. etc.
+
+[26:03] And that and that basically it's not considered a uh a hundred percent safe practice to do so, and since most of us own a refrigerator, why wouldn't we put it in the refrigerator? And the other thing is is you're gonna get quality degradation as the thing sits out over time uh at room temperature, so why wouldn't you just refrigerate it? That's the point. Uh so uh so then he's like, okay, so if Ruleman was kind of mistaken about that, and I'm not getting it, that's what McGee said about Rulman, although I tend to agree. Uh so when the rules takes talks about meat and saying uh when it's cured, it's cured and nothing bad is gonna happen to it.
+
+[26:34] I.e. you don't have to worry about meat that's being left out uh if it's cured. Uh is should I take that with a grain of salt, or is salt stopping all the bad stuff uh that is in it? Uh question in from Stephen Garrett, Wellington, New Zealand. Well, well, you know, I read the post uh Ruhlman was talking about.
+
+[26:49] He was talking about, I think it was uh it was last week I was looking it up, but it was duck prosciutto, I think, or some sort of uh, you know, hanging meat that he just wiped with uh you know a mixture of nitrites and salt and hung it up. Uh and you know, certain sometimes mold uh can develop on it depending on the uh moisture content of it and the relative, you know, the the temperature and the humidity and the atmosphere, etc. And the question is, is is it true uh what ruhlman says that nothing bad is going to grow on that meat, so you don't really need to worry about it. Well, mostly yes. Mostly that's true.
+
+[27:20] Uh although uh I mean I would take it with a, you know, I would take it with a little bit of a grain of salt. Uh I mean, there are bad things that can happen to meat that has been cured. Uh the cured meat itself probably isn't bad, but for instance, you could contaminate cured meat and then it could have really nasty stuff on it that doesn't die right away, right? So, yes, uh, you know, and also it depends on whether you've used enough salt. So, you know, if you haven't used enough salt, then you haven't cured uh you haven't killed all the bad stuff.
+
+[27:48] So uh just the fact that you have cured it and that it looks cured isn't necessarily mean that it's always gonna be okay in all circumstances. However, for the most part, if you properly cure something and follow the instructions, then yes, nothing bad is gonna happen. But let's not forget that in ground meats, especially, if you don't get the proper pH and you don't use the proper salt amount, you don't have the proper amount of nitrates, that you could do yourself some serious damage. Let's not forget that the word botulism comes from the Latin word for sausage. Okay?
+
+[28:17] Uh yeah. Although that doesn't really happen anymore because people, you know, they cure things properly. Anyway. Okay. Now uh now I'm gonna find uh another question.
+
+[28:28] Okay. Uh Derek uh Bodkin wrote in with a question saying, uh Dave and Co. That would be you and Dak and the rest. Um is it possible to substitute eastern red cedar berries for juniper berries? Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome.
+
+[28:43] Okay. So uh here in the US, a lot of us don't have uh the uh you know, the standard juniper that we use in flavoring, which is juniper, I guess communis, I think is what it's called, juniperis communis, something like that. I don't have the Latin in front of me. Um that's the one that's used for flavoring, but a lot of us have around uh the eastern red cedar, which is I'm gonna make it up now, juniperis, and then like Virginia Virginianica or something like that. Sounds like Virginia, whatever.
+
+[29:07] Anyway, common uh, you know, it's a common juniper that's around here a lot. It's also used a lot as an ornamental. It turns out that uh the red cedar, the berries are edible, in fact, uh, and have been used uh since prehistoric times by uh Native American tribes living in America uh as uh b both the the leaves, the berries, and the bark uh have been used in various uh decoctions and teas um uh for various various you know ailments that you might have. So, yes, i they can be used. The wood apparently is also quite nice.
+
+[29:38] Uh but the downside is that it doesn't have the same powerful aromatic quality that uh the traditional juniper is, so it's not gonna well, it's not gonna be as baller necessarily of a of a juniper flavor. That said, uh uh, you know, if you taste it and you like it, then maybe you can use it in a way that's different from a uh you know the juniper that we're used to. You might uh again, I'm a big believer in um you know, it might not be as good as juniper at being juniper, but it might be very good at being what it is, the eastern red cedar. Do you know what I'm saying, Saz? Mm-hmm.
+
+[30:13] Anyway, so give it a try. It's not gonna poison you. However, uh I've read some sources that say it's mildly toxic, but again, it's been used for a long time. It was in my uh herbal book. Uh it was in a bun, it's in a bunch of the references I've read.
+
+[30:27] Um I wouldn't eat a whole boatload of them, and there are juniper species out there that are toxic uh to a greater or lesser degree. So make sure you have your identification right. Uh don't eat boatloads of it, and uh maybe try to find an application where it tastes um as good or better than the regular juniper for what you're trying to use it for. There's a great article in 2000, I think, it's somewhere somewhere between 2006 and 2009 in the New York Times in the gardening section. You can find it on the internet uh about uh juniper and which junipers to use uh and and so on and so forth.
+
+[31:02] Right? You like that? Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, uh Philippe uh let's see get his first name.
+
+[31:09] I don't know. Well, I'm gonna get his last name. Anyway, Philippe writes in uh a question about uh knives. Uh he's been contemplating picking up a Michelle uh Brass, which is the famous uh French chef from uh where's he from, Albrach or something like that. Uh Michel Brass uh shun knife for years now.
+
+[31:26] I've read many reviews and they're split half in half. I'm worried about the platinum oxide coating on the uh blade. It's titanium oxide, actually, I believe. It's not platinum, I think it's titanium oxide. Titanium oxide coating on the blade.
+
+[31:37] Do you have one and does it scratch easily? Thanks so much. Okay. Titanium uh titani okay, first of all, Shun, aka Kershaw has a bunch of uh lines of knives out that are uh associated with celebrities of one type or another. So they have Alton Brown knives, have a funky angle because Alton Brown is tall, and he can't cut properly with a regular knife because the angle is bad.
+
+[32:00] So he says, I can't use the Alton Brown knives, but I'm not that tall. Maybe Mark has Mark tried those? No. Mark's tall man. He's never tried one of those knives.
+
+[32:07] He should try one. So I'd be interested to know whether or not a tall person, whether it's actually helpful for them. That's an interesting fact for me. I could probably get him one. Anyway.
+
+[32:14] Uh Ken Onion, a famous knife designer, also made one, uh, a knife for those guys. It's completely non-traditional chef's knife. It has a very curved belly, so you uh you rock it as you cut it, and it's got like a kind of a strange ergonomic handle on it. Chef Andre Soltner, uh, international old school badass, enjoys that knife. He actually uses it.
+
+[32:33] Um, and then they did a line with uh Michelle Brass. Michelle Brass, his knife, Michelle Brass is all about aesthetics, and so the knife is really pretty, right? So it's kind of a matte kind of like uh like gun metal gray color, and it's got a titanium oxide coating on it. Titanium, the metal is not very hard. It's tough as hell, and it doesn't ever it it basically it won't rust, uh, but it's not that hard.
+
+[32:57] Titanium oxide, on the other hand, I believe is quite hard. It's used as a coating for drills for high speed drills uh and things of that nature. So I'm pretty sure that it's kind of a baller coating to put on the outside, right? The knife itself has two different grades of stainless steel, a softer stainless steel on the outside for toughness, and a harder stainless steel uh in the center for the edge. Um so it should be okay.
+
+[33:21] I mean, I don't know if it's worth the huge price tag. I don't think it's gonna cut appreciably better than the less expensive uh Kershaw slash uh Shun knives because I don't think the blade chemistry itself is any different. It might be balanced better, it might be made better, it definitely looks better than those other ones, but I don't know if it's actually going to cut better. The um the other interesting thing about it is that it's uh unlike a lot of Japanese Western knives, I read on their website actually, I went on the website, it's sharpened with a 50-50 uh bevel, meaning it's sharpened the same way on either side, like a traditional French or German knife, which means it should be fairly easy for someone who's used to European knives to sharpen it. Um it sharpened uh fifteen degrees on each side, so it's not it's fairly it's a fairly sharp, fairly sharp blade.
+
+[34:07] Uh I've read some reports on the internet saying that they are well very well balanced blades and that they handle quite well. Um I'm gonna go on a little bit of a rant. A lot of people worry about uh the sharpness of their knives, and they buy the most uh you know the the best steel, the best this, the best that, ceramic knives, all this other stuff. Um, you know, in the words of Jeffrey Steingarden, which I think I've quoted here uh several times, you know, knives are like uh puppies. They're always good when they're new.
+
+[34:35] It's only later that the problems come out. And I think the main thing about a knife is how easy is it to sharpen, how fast is it for you to sharpen, and how well can you re-sharpen it? And I know I've talked about sharpening here uh a bunch, but I'll say something I don't think I've said before, which is I would prefer steel that isn't quite as badass that sharpens really well and just sharpen the dang thing more often, right? Uh a lesser quality reed softer steel that you sharpen right before you use it is going to uh do a much better job in general than the super hard, high quality powdered, centered steel that you buy uh and then have in sharpened in four months. I mean, that's just truth.
+
+[35:16] What do you think? Don't talk to Nastasha. She takes people's knives and beats them about about their head. She's she's a strange lady nostashum. Yes or no?
+
+[35:25] What? True. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, yeah? Okay.
+
+[35:29] We'll talk about it later. Okay. Uh thanks for answering. Thanks for answering my liver question a few weeks back. You're welcome.
+
+[35:36] Uh and then one more question. Uh my chef asked me to turn some already old blanched cauliflower into a puree. I was hesitant. So I pumped the florets into a small pot and covered with half and half and then with a paper lid. I slowly simmered the cauliflower until it's tender, but the weird side effect was that a lot of the cauliflower turned brown as if it were caramelized.
+
+[35:54] Or, you know, my art. Uh uh, it no, it didn't taste good uh even in the first place. Uh do you know what happened? Uh that's interesting. First of all, I I did some bunch of research this morning on cauliflower.
+
+[36:05] It looks like we'll have to wrap up with this, but I did a bunch of research on cauliflower. And did you know that in the biz uh they don't call cauliflower florets florets, they call it curd? Weird. I guess because it looks like you know, like cheese curd, I guess. Weird, right?
+
+[36:19] Cauliflower, by the way, your kids' favorite. Oh my god, my kids, I swear to God, you know what? I love cauliflower. And I was like, there's no one on earth that doesn't, unless you're vegan, that doesn't like uh cauliflower drenched in a cheese sauce, right? I mean, it's just it's just good stuff, right?
+
+[36:35] And so, and you know, my kids for a long time, have I already talked about this? My kids for a long time uh wouldn't uh eat green vegetables really of any of any sort. Uh well by a long time I mean still. They don't like green vegetables. Uh it's one of these demented things that's put in their head by the by I don't know, by other kids.
+
+[36:51] It's one of these like weird things that's perpetuated generation after generation. I loved green vegetables growing up. Anyway, that's me. Uh so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go get cauliflower. It's not green.
+
+[37:01] I'm gonna drench it in cheese sauce. Everyone freaking loves cheese sauce. And uh it was the worst dinner I've ever had in my in my life. The worst experience of the d the cauliflower is delicious. It was the worst experience of a meal I have ever had in my entire life.
+
+[37:15] The screaming, the moaning, the pleading, the crying. Uh and and ever since that, all that day, all I've ever had to uh say is threaten my kids with cauliflower for dinner and they're quiet. Call them the sardines thing. Well, my kid, well, Booker loves sardines. They they like some weird stuff.
+
+[37:37] It's like, look, it's all it's all mental. It does no when you fill the sardine can. Oh, I filled a sardine can, gave it to my son Booker, who loves uh sardines, and I filled it with cauliflower, and he opened it up, he's like, ah like I had had like I don't know, some sort of like uh I don't know, toxic, toxic, something like that. Anywho, so uh turns out that cauliflower, like all other uh, you know, you know, kind of brassica style things like cabbages, like uh broccoli, like um Brussels sprouts, uh contain a lot of sulfur containing compounds. And so when you uh you know, and sulfur, the chemistry of these sulfur compounds in food is extremely complicated.
+
+[38:16] And as you cook these things for a long time, uh various things happen. They get stinky, right? Then they get old, then you have lipid oxidation, and then it turns out sometimes I guess they can change colors. Uh I couldn't find, I didn't have time to run it down, and since McGee is still in China, I guarantee you McGee knows right off the top of his head exactly what's going on. But since he's in China, I can't call him to get that information out of his head.
+
+[38:39] Um but uh you know, uh some of the stuff that's in it, I was thinking about there's uh there's a couple articles like the non-enzymatic browning of cauliflower in storage. And uh uh what one of the culprits might be these kind of uh polyphenols that are in it that can react with iron. I'm wondering if you had any sort of uh if you're using a steel pot, it's possible that maybe the steel in the pot had something to do with it. Um in which case, if if it is something like that, like non-enzymatic browning that's happening or some sort of weird mired reaction, maybe in conjunction with the uh half and half that you used. A little ascorbic acid might make it better.
+
+[39:15] Uh but there's all sorts of very complicated uh sulfur breakdown components uh in cauliflower that can change over time, get stinkier over time. It's a known uh it's a known fact. You might want to look for reference uh to some articles like the volatile constituents from Romanesco cauliflower, uh the uh gluco uh glucosinolate and free sugar content in cauliflower, and the non-enzymatic browning of cauliflower on storage. But uh, haven't found a you know a hundred percent uh you know ironclad reason why it would happen. Uh the more I read, the more complicated cauliflower turns out.
+
+[39:51] Just don't serve it to my kids. All right, and before we leave, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modernist uh modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[40:17] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries crisp coat UC, a modified starch that can be used in batters and breading to give fried foods an extra crispy crust.
+
+[40:40] I like that word extra crispy crust. Fans of cooking issues at place in order of $25 or more before next week's show will get a free package of crisp coat to play with simply use the promo code CI77 when placing your order online at ModernistPantry.com. Visit modernistpantry dot com for all of your cooking needs of the modernist nature. And that's been Cooking Issues come back next week's fish all you did got me on this corner. You can find all of our don't know where I'm at work.
+
+[41:25] You can find all of my baby cleaning in a slate you got my head all twisted and I guess can't get it straight fishes fish is but good
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live to the cosmos from the backyard at Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Oh, you dead. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby.
+
+[0:38] 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And the guest can't get it straight. Vicious, fishes, but hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245.
+
+[1:06] Gonna be joined today in the studio with uh Maxime Belay, co-author of uh Modernist Cuisine uh Cookbook. Also, oh here he is, he's coming through right now. I see him. Uh so I'll wait to introduce him. We're also here with uh Dave Hey Dana, what's your last name?
+
+[1:18] Goodyear. Goodyear from the New Yorker. She's just hanging out, but she's welcome to chime in anytime she wants. Yeah, put on a pair of headphones. This one's for you.
+
+[1:26] Right? And as usual, we're joined with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, who's sitting typing on her computer getting stuff done for the cooking issues machine. Am I right? That's true. Yeah.
+
+[1:36] Berlin. Berlin. Yeah. So uh hey Maxine. Here, uh pull up a seat.
+
+[1:42] Here's your microphone and uh your headphones. So uh Maxime. I'm doing well. Doing well. Uh Maxine, you were a graduate of what?
+
+[1:49] Of ICE? Originally, our Arch Nemesis, the FCI is at the same time. Is that true or indeed ISA? Yeah. Very brief since it's ice.
+
+[1:56] Yeah, that's our Arch Nemesis. But then move to uh what anyone who was hanging around uh in New York in I guess the late nineties, early two thousands, Jack's Oyster Bar, right? Fantastic place. Didn't you work there? I did, I did.
+
+[2:08] I I actually went to uh Jack's Luxurious Bar as a stagiaire fr directly from ICE. The chef left uh about two weeks later. And Jack Lamb, crazy as he is, gave me the head chef job. So it was it was quite a transition for a young chef. But a great I mean uh uh you know w I went I think once, but it moved across the street, right?
+
+[2:26] I went when it I went when it was on its original side of the street, and I think once when it was across the street. Yeah, I was I was there when it was still the um the little carriage house and then it moved to uh the old Makimona space. What was that on fifth fifth street? It's on fifth street. Yeah.
+
+[2:38] Anyway, fabulous place, great pedigree. Went moved from there to the fat duck, you know, the uh Heston Blumenthal's famous joint, right? Indeed. Uh and you were on the restaurant side or the development side and the development side. I began uh on the restaurant side and then they quickly moved me to the development side.
+
+[2:53] That was my you know my my calling all the the research and the and the you know great dishes that that Heston would would uh push us to create. So and then we're ta was tapped by uh Nathan Miravold to to uh you know you know be a part of the modernist cuisine dream team. And so, you know, the three authors on the book, of course, Nathan, who's been on the show before, Nathan Miravold, Chris Young, good friend of ours, been on the show before, and Maxime for the first time on the show. Well, welcome. It's so nice to be here.
+
+[3:21] Thanks for having me. And uh Dana, who again may or may not chime in, I don't know. Welcome to, is writing an article on strange meats. True or false. True.
+
+[3:31] True. All right, very good. Nice. So listen, call all of your questions in to uh seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[3:40] So how are you doing? Maxine was at our bar the other day. I loved it. Oh my god, you you were right. The the basil cocktail that you it's delicious.
+
+[3:48] It's so fragrant. Thanks. I appreciate it. It's a technique we do at the Booker Index, uh, which basically we just lost by the way, best new bar timeout in New York to a maison premiere, but it's good to lose to such a great bar. Maison premiere.
+
+[4:00] Anyway, uh technique where we smash the Thai basil with uh liquid nitrogen. And what what what happens is when it's frozen that that that deeply in liquid nitrogen, there's no sort of uh enzymatic degradation of the uh herb at all. And we can shatter it into super super fine particles even just using a hand muddler, then add uh liquor directly that prevents uh the enzymes because the enzymes can't really work and pack with liquor. You get that beautiful extraction. Yeah, it's like the liquor sucks it straight out, and then uh lime juice, the ascorbic acid further prevents breakdown by enzymes, and then shake it like a normal daiquiri from there on out.
+
+[4:34] But I like it. And the color is beautiful, but the but the the just the aroma is just yeah spectacular. So before I get into questions, it's uh and I hate to do this to you because everyone always asks every you know, this is the question I have to ask you, and if I don't ask you, someone will get upset at me. By all means. Well, uh so uh what's what's next on your plate?
+
+[4:52] Well, uh right now we're really it's been the book tour. It's been an incredible journey, you know, just sharing, teaching um, you know, every different technique and and and all the aesthetics that we that we went into creating modernist cuisine, uh, we're able to share on so many levels. It's just so much information. And we're uh by having this book tour, we're able to sort of unravel it and and and look at the different uh aspects that went into to its making. Uh but going forward, we've had many propositions and we're not totally clear exactly what what the the next phase is.
+
+[5:28] We m we we have a a little project in the in the works that uh will come out soon that's good the kind of exciting uh but that's just that's I'm gonna give you a teaser on that one then maybe you know at AV they make you send giant NDAs and where uh I uh intellectual ventures so I I I I am bound by all right all right well just you know dropping it there that there is something coming we just don't know what it is thanks for making me curious now and not giving me anything maybe maybe maybe off air my full intention. Yeah well you know uh by the way in case you have randomly tuned to this podcast and don't know what modernist cuisine is uh it is probably uh the single kind of greatest cookbook publishing phenomenon mmm of all times probably I would have to say of all times well that's very flattering. Yeah next to me like a pe look like for instance right Apicius is the only book on Roman cookery. It's not that it's a great book but it's the only book. Right now we have a huge uh a huge output of cookbooks and food related books and yet nothing that has ever been kinda uh attempted much less successfully produced on this scale.
+
+[6:38] It's amazing. I mean uh uh anyway the astounding book uh thank you uh you know the and the thing is is that even though I guess the go the going Amazon price is what about four fifty now five yeah it's it's you know it's yeah yeah yeah about four hundred yeah so it's not not an inexpensive book but uh as Nathan uh is fond of pointing out a lot of paper in that book. A lot of paper and very good investment per you know the amount of information you're getting. I mean if you if you if you think about it in its five volumes, you break it down, it's uh and the amount of work that went into it. I think it's you know, a as a sh as a young chef, as a as a as a passionate foodie, whatever you want to call you know yourself, it's I think it's a very good investment for your your your future creative uh culinary adventures.
+
+[7:23] But it's less than half the price per book of the of the El Bully books, for instance. Yes, if you're gonna compare exactly if you want to compare something. Yeah, and uh what's uh what's funny about to speak on such venal terms about it, but uh you know, everyone's wondering, well, you know, Nate Nathan, who has an unbelievable amount of money, an absurd amount of money, really, when you think about it. He's a ri rich man. He's very well he's done very well for himself and he's worked hard for it.
+
+[7:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a lot of meaning, you know, multi-billionaire. But absolutely uh everyone was like, well, you know, this is kind of uh this is kind of uh one of the criticisms you hear is that it it's just because he has a lot of money, he's never gonna make the money back. But in fact, the book is good enough it's making the money back. It's actually become becoming on the edge of profitable.
+
+[8:07] And that that was never the intention. But you know, the f I mean we thought we would sell two thousand copies, maybe, and now we're almost at thirty thousand copies. And at that price point, yeah, we're we're we're recuperating the you know the investment that was made, and that's that's amazing. I mean the fact that it's actually going to be a profitable book, I think is the greatest sign of I mean look, success I mean, success in terms of kind of the impact that it's gonna make in the world. The fact that something can be at that cost can have that much money dumped into its production, yeah, right?
+
+[8:38] Yeah, which Nathan will never divulge what the actual number is, but we know it's a lot because I mean at minimum, you ha at mi bare minimum, you had at least fifteen, you know, very, very qualified people working full time for how many years plus then a lot more. Three and a half, you had a full team. And and then and then a lot more than the fifteen for a big chunk of that time. For for the f the final year push when we really had to get everything together, it was almost forty, you know, including all the ghostwriters and the the copy editors, and it was it was a pretty you know, massive team of of uh experts in you know in what they did. Yeah.
+
+[9:11] And so the yeah, and so f for for something of that magnitude to be able to break even just I think goes to show uh kind of how ripe the time was for this information, the need for the book, and also uh, you know, it's just I think it's an interesting measure. So one that's often not talked about actually in the when people talk about the book, they don't talk about that aspect of it. Absolutely. No, and I'm glad you bring that up, because it it was it was the i in terms of timing and and people being you know open to what this means, you know, that that that that merging of of of art and science, which is a beautiful thing. Um and it's something that that you know a lot of of uh classic traditionalists, you know, want wanting to reject and at the same time uh when you embrace it you realize that that each each really enhances the other and it's it's it's such a clean, beautiful relationship that it's yeah, it it was prime for that and people are responding that way.
+
+[10:06] And so that's that's a testament to the progress we've made with with with looking at the different roles of food. And and something else I think I I th I might have commented on this show about it uh before. I'm not sure. I can't remember. Uh if you haven't seen the book at all, one of the interesting things about it is um and this is something I hadn't expected before I was able to see it, is kind of how personal it is.
+
+[10:27] It's not uh in other words, it's not uh it's not the encyclopedia Britannica. It's not it's not a cold textbook. No, no, but by by no means. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of personal feelings, personal uh I mean it's it's some humor. There's the I mean there's there's a yeah, a lot of personal aspects.
+
+[10:43] Yeah, I mean it's uh great book. Anyway, so we have a we have a question on the book. Someone who uh read actually from uh Zymergy, the uh blog, I guess. Yeah, uh had a question regarding uh the Spetzel recipe in the book. And I'll read it uh even though it's addressed to me.
+
+[10:58] Yes. I'll read it to you since you're gonna know a lot more about it than I do. Uh I've attempted uh the modern squeezing sour cream spitzel uh recipe twice now with less than desirable results. So you're gonna troubleshoot this for the trouble. Let's fix this one.
+
+[11:10] All right. The issues are that they will not uh form into a shape. The first time I attempted them, they basically dissolved into the ice water. The second time I received a new batch of uh Activa YG, uh by the way, that's meat meat glue, but it's actually like a protein bonder. YG is the one that's made for dairy and protein stuff.
+
+[11:26] Uh made the recipe and split the batch in two. I then used a qu uh before we go on, why don't you describe the recipe first so that people know what we're talking about? Yeah, so this is actually a recipe inspired by uh by Alexanaki from uh Ideas and Food. And uh we really uh as part of our um uh beef uh uh cheek uh goulash, we wanted to have a a modernist uh special component. And uh and so that that was the basis for creating the recipe.
+
+[11:55] And it's it's a combination of I think it's cream cheese. I have to I have to look at the recipe in front of me to t to be fully aware of the information. But basically it's it's a dairy-based sp uh spetzel where uh we've we're using the the the bo binding properties of Activa YG. We also use uh an additional um uh element of protein. Uh the uh we use alb uh there's albumin in there.
+
+[12:18] And uh what you create is these very fluffy little dumplings that uh um uh after being set with that enzymatic process, then are uh nicely toasted in brown butter and uh served as a garnish for this for this you know very uncuous uh 72 hour beef cheeky all right and so the the proteins in it uh egg egg proteins I guess egg white proteins and also uh the the the dairy proteins the dairy proteins are being bound together with an enzyme transcontamination meat glue set and then uh poached and then toasted or yeah well well they're actually they're never actually poached they what you do we what we do is we uh sieve them after they've uh once once the enzymatic process is begun we sieve them into um through the a spetzla maker into uh ice water and you get these nice little dumpling shapes uh okay and then you and then you give them a final fry to to really make given that that textual contrast so the first time that red made them it dissolved into the ice water the second time uh received a new batch of the activa yg made them and split the batch in two used one quarter of the batch as directed with the same results let the other half set in the fridge for 24 hours thinking that it needed time to set up that was also not the answer. By the way uh protein gel made with activa once set if it's broken it's broken it's not a lot of it's a good one. You're breaking a gel. Absolutely because that won't work. No.
+
+[13:41] Uh the last uh quarter of the batch went into the freezer another failure. I can attest that I'm following the recipe to the letter but cannot seem to get this one down. I'm not sure if you know the formulation or not but anything that you could add would be helpful. Uh gelatin water, sour cream ricotta, whey protein isolate why there's gelatin too there is gelatin yeah yeah we went to give a give a maximum amounts of of protein capacity. How come you don't do a you know um how come you oh the the cold water then sets the gelatin and then the gelatin's cross linked by the YG so I would bet that they're not I would bet that you're not they're not waiting long enough for the gelatin to to get syrupy.
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+[14:13] That's right. That's a good that's a very good point. I mean doing that over an ice water bath until it gets that that syrupy consistency uh and then and then setting it directly into the ice water is is one of the tricks. Yeah I mean I know a lot of people like w for me like uh one of the great meat glue applications involving gelatin is my brother-in-law Wiley Dufrein's uh veg noodles and like quinoa chips absolutely and a lot of people have trouble duplicating that recipe and I think ninety nine percent of the time it's because they're not getting the the gelatin uh the hydration and the and the yeah yeah I mean one of the sad one not sad well one of the interesting things about a lot of these uh a lot of these techniques is they really do require as sometimes it is helpful to see people do it. Absolutely because there's a lot of like uh the hand in it.
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+[15:06] I know that you know like um Wiley also used to do very kind of a well known in in WD50 a well known recipe where he would uh take uh c carrot and cardamom uh I think it was carrot no I did carry carrot whatever carrot and then he would freeze it uh and dip it in a mixture of uh uh capricarakeen and locust bean gum to make his egg yolk. Do they make the yolk with the with the egg uh with the the egg white yeah the egg white was a coconut coconut like a fluid yeah yeah very famous uh WD fifty dish uh which we have in the book really yeah oh cool yeah uh but the the truth is it's actually a very difficult recipe. If you've never done it before, it takes a lot of practice to get those egg yolks to work properly. And when you're first doing it, uh, you'll get like one in eight will work. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:58] Absolutely. And then by the time you know you've been doing service every day for uh a month, you lose one in twenty. Do you know what I mean? But but there was always like the one cook in the kitchen who their job was to do all sixty of those every day, get them plated, get them away, and you know, they had the magic touch, but it really comes from practice. So a lot of these things take some practice.
+
+[16:18] Exactly. It's a huge amount of practice. Yeah. And and feel and you know, y exactly. So listen, call in your questions to 7184972128.
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+[16:27] That's 7184972128. We're gonna go to commercial break, be right back with Maxime Belay. Cooking issues. All right, so MG's nice. Coming back with cooking issues, Maxime Belet, caller, you are on the air.
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+[17:23] Uh yeah, hi Dave, thanks. Um I don't know how relevant my question is to your um modernist show today, but um I'm charged with making some dairy-free mashed potatoes for this weekend. Ooh. And um I've seen some recipes online that basically call up for like chicken broth or some milk substitute like soy milk or almond milk to uh stimulate the creaminess like that that dairy would to mash potatoes. And I was wondering if you had any um alternative suggestions.
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+[17:53] How how long do you have from now? How I'm sorry, how long do I have? Yeah, how long do you have to get the recipe together from today? Um I mean I'm making them Friday night. What do you think, Maxima?
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+[18:04] I would go for like an emulsion. I would do like uh with veg vegetable, I mean, if you really want the creaminess, you have to have some veg like yeah, vegetable oil base and uh I don't I'm not sure what starch you would use. I mean, uh you know if you were gonna do I mean you can almost get like uh a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan, like the tickled oil that we use. And you could do uh like an like an oil like a very heavy oil water emulsion. That'll hold as it dilutes and or as it's mixed with a solid, and you could get some of that you'll get some of that creaminess.
+
+[18:34] Then you could just choose a delicious oil. I wonder if you could do a slurry of the um like uh the the potato flakes, uh hydrate them just a little bit so and then blend in the uh the like a vegetable oil and make that your your your fat base. So I'm just I'm a little worried that if you don't pre emulsify it that it might break. It could, but this but the with the amount uh it depends on the ratio. If you're doing like the robuchon or like the very like very high percent, yeah.
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+[19:00] But if you want the the uncuousness, I mean, you know, even fifteen, twenty percent fat, I think the amount of starch that you already have in the potato uh will act as uh as a pretty good emulsifier for for a vegetable oil base. Have you tried just a vegetable oil base yet? I I really haven't even played around with it that much. I've just kind of started looking into it right now. Alright, well, first I would go bonehead simple, like we said, and just you know, make mashed potatoes and beat uh some uh you know, put o oil into it.
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+[19:26] I mean gently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, obviously. Put it through like a I mean like yeah, yeah, don't turn it to glue. No, please, no true, no chewing mashed potatoes.
+
+[19:34] Yeah, yeah. And then after that, uh my next step would be to move into uh uh my next step would be to move into something like um like a tickle or like a xanthan gum arabic mix. That's a great thing. See, what about like uh does it have to be dairy free and uh completely like what about eggs? Combined with like an egg yolk and then when the egg is.
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+[19:54] No, eggs are eggs are fine. Basically for Passover and the last second, you like a snowball not a style where you just get that richness. Um, just no dairy basically. I think you know, yeah, you could go like old school, like you almost using the egg yolk like super thick, but like egg yolk instead of the gum arabic and Xanthan, just to uh multifier, yeah. So you're basically making a mayonnaise and folding it in.
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+[20:18] I mean it's uh it's it's exactly that. Yeah, I think if you're allowed to use egg, but just make sure you don't get the temperature too high. Exactly. You know, do you have access to a circulator? Wait, yeah, wait till the um potatoes cool off a little bit.
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+[20:28] A little bit. Yeah, but do you do you have a circulator or no? No, no. I'm pretty much working. I live in Brooklyn and this time, I don't even have a kitchen.
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+[20:35] I just kinda like it. But but if you're if you just get a seven seven, eight dollar digital thermometer, you check the the temperature of your potatoes right when you when you know before you want to serve them, and you fold that in to give it that, you know, just that that with that uh folding um you know technique. Uh I think that would be great. Yeah, but just do it at the last minute. Exactly.
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+[20:54] If you have a circulator, you can cheat and spread it out in the ziploc and go, but yeah, but just wait till the last minute. Yeah. Last minute. And if you just do potatoes, season them up, you know, keep them you know, starchy, whatever they are, and warm fold that in at the very end. Yeah, and use a ricers or or or or potato mills to have your your your potato base, and then at the last second you you you fold it in with the right ratio.
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+[21:13] And that's something where you just keep on adding in just to get the right mouthfeel, and you you just have to keep on tasting for that. Um another cool thing that we love to do for to increase the potato flavor as well. If you're using oil, that's a great medium for that. You can take the skins from the potatoes, uh the potato peels, obviously that you you you've uh uh taken away from the phone. Exactly.
+
+[21:32] And fry them in the oil uh beforehand that you're going to use for your mayonnaise. So they have it, they have a beautiful deep nutty flavor. And then strain that, cool that down, make your mayonnaise like that, and then you'd have a really intensely flavored uh and creamy mashed potato. Cool. That sounds that sounds great.
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+[21:48] What what kind of frying on that? Like like deep frying or just kind of like a few. Just in a pan, you know, and you do you have your skins in there and you you wait until they get sort of you know crisped and and and golden. You don't want to burn them, you don't want to get any bitter flavors, but just until you extract them. Exactly.
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+[22:05] You're just extracting the the some of those really beautiful flavors. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Good good luck. Let us know how it works out.
+
+[22:12] Absolutely. Do we still yeah, I will. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, do we still have another caller?
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+[22:16] All right, caller, you are on the air. Yeah, hello. Hi. Oh, you got an echo. Yeah.
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+[22:22] Okay, sorry. Hold on one second. Uh is that any better? No, we'll deal with it. Um, uh so uh I'm a current student at FCI actually.
+
+[22:34] And I had a question kind of related to something I'm trying to do for my menu project. Okay. Uh and so um two two questions. I need both to create food and uh large sheets, and also I'm I'm asking about uh edible threads, if you know of anything. Uh large sheets of what?
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+[22:53] And yeah, what was the Yeah, okay. So um, for example, I mean one of the things I'm trying to use is uh yuba which is easy enough to get into a large sheet but I was also thinking about using transglutamase uh to bind thin sheets thin slices of meat into large sheets. Yes, sure. I guess are you familiar with uh shibori? No shibori is a Japanese uh resist dyeing technique like a a very badass form of tie-dye basically oh yeah yeah yeah okay uh and so the idea is to is it silk screening or is it is it sil silk screening or is it so cleaning I'm not sure uh no no oh I guess so my idea is um taking uh foods and binding them using these resist techniques we actually weave thread into the fabric and then pull it tight and bunch it in different designs and then you dye it and where the fabric is pulled tight it resists the dyeing.
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+[23:53] Right. So the idea is to bind food and then it would then resist different cooking methods through the different courses. Either by taking like a sheet of sashimi, uh binding it very carefully and bunching it and then soaking it in a like ceviche bait so that it the bound portions resist the acid they aren't exposed to the acid and so some of it comes out as sort of a ceviche uh cure and then some of it comes out so is the sashimi for example. Okay. I mean looking for an edible thread that is fine enough to do that sort of work uh with something as delicate as fish but that is still edible.
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+[24:32] How strong? How strong? Like scallion scallion comes to mind as the classic thread. Sure, sure sure sure. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:39] Like uh like long pieces that are then you know lightly blanched. I mean that's the classic you know thing like that that that works. I mean I'm sure there's others. Uh yeah. I mean I mean you can you could do starch based ones.
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+[24:53] I mean that would be it consists of making uh a starch paper based on uh like maybe a a really good uh prehydrated tapioca starch uh you make a leather maybe a little a little bit of oil so that the the it breaks down in your mouth uh more easily and I think I think that might be but then it might hydrate a tough time when it's in in contact with the with the water yeah yeah it might you are okay so you need something waterproof, right? Which means that you're you're dealing with I mean th that right there is a problem. So now you're you're basically down to long long scale p plant fibers. Do you absolutely make that strong enough? Oh absolutely yeah we've done with with pasta we've done it where if you do v if you if you cut them just fine enough you could do a very uh uh a uh fresh pasta enriched with with about depending on the flour you're using five to seven percent uh vital weak gluten and bobs red is a really good brand and you could get uh you could get a very uh uh uh s sort of you know uh plat uh elastic um thread that would be you know very workable but also break down as you chew very easily.
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+[26:04] Can you hit it with RM to make it even tougher or no that we we've done that for the for buckwheat because there was you had the protein content but we didn't have enough stu uh uh uh of uh um of the the the the starch uh right so yeah exactly yeah, the bottom would be very work very well with the meat course too. Have you guys heard of uh um uh collagen thread? Oh yeah. Yeah. It doesn't break down so nicely though.
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+[26:30] In the mouth feels not so nice. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like well, think about it this way. I mean, collagen on the outsides doesn't break down as nicely as like intestine, for instance. Uh would be cool.
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+[26:44] That'd be cool. That would work. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
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+[26:48] Honeycomb tripe is an amazing, yeah. Yeah, or or like long, like carefully cut pieces of uh sausage casing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[26:58] And as as for gluing sheets, it's no problem. That's no problem. Yeah, that's stuff's meant to do it. Here's my one recommend recommendation. The only time I've ever had uh meat glue provide an off flavor in a dish that I've done was when I glued a um I I glued many, many layers of different colored fish together and then vacuum them together.
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+[27:17] Well no, but yeah, but so so I the first time I did it, I over meat glued it and I vacuumed it and I let it cure in the vacuum bag. And then I had I perceived a flavor that and and I but so the second time I did it I used a much sm less amount of meat glue, vacuumed it, and then before like right after I crushed it into shape, yeah, I cut the bag open, and then it could air out in the fridge while it was setting and then let that flavor come off. Yeah. But you especially with fish, um when I am butchering, before you put the sheets together, would you cut them across like you're doing for sashimi or along the grain to kind of provide stability? Uh uh any like thin, beautiful sheet of fish is gonna be absurdly uh delicate, no matter how you do it.
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+[28:02] Uh unless you're literally cutting um unless you're literally cutting in a big piece and then preserving the sinew along the cut, which is possible. Like I've you know, we've done tuna sinew is delicious, you know uh but you're gonna be tough getting big pieces that stuff you could you could you could hit somebody in the face with it won't break but yeah I guess if you if you were to if you were to like partially cure the meat um then you might have yeah I mean if if you give it not cure I would actually do a brine but if you were to do like um three and a half salts percentage you know to to water uh two percent sugar brine uh you might be able to get a a little bit more uh uh elasticity and and um I think structure uh to the fish. Yeah I mean the best way to slice unless you're gonna do some sort of special slicing is to parf par freeze it don't freeze it all the way. Just get it par freeze throw it on uh like a very high quality meat slicer and go directly in between sheets of wax paper and then keep them almost frozen until you're about to use them because once those things stall out good night. It's yeah and was the transglutamase still work while it's frozen or would you apply frozen if it thaws and it activates no needs to thaw needs a thaw in order for the what you what what you do is is because so when we when we you know when I was doing it I would take the the you know fairly stiff but not fully frozen sheets I would layer them uh and then as soon as the salt and the sugar from the cure hits them they melt out and then you have a a block but then you don't lift them again.
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+[29:28] That's it. You know what I mean? They're done. Yeah. You know excellent thank you very much and if you want to see a uh a video I have a video on cooking issues uh on the blog I think or link to from a Starchef's video I did where I did Mokumegane which is the Japanese metal working kind of uh you know technique and you can see the kind of in practice, like thin sheets of fish glued together.
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+[29:51] It's not what you want to do, but it might give you some uh visual pointers on how to handle the products. Yeah. Yeah, excellent. Thank you very much. Um I'm really curious to see how your your uh you know this all comes together.
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+[30:03] This is uh send us some photos. I will definitely uh send you guys some photos. I have a friend who does a lot of food photography who's very interested, also who wants to document it. So I will definitely send you guys something. Awesome.
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+[30:16] Yeah, excellent. Thank you very much for talking with me today. Thank you. So do we we have any more callers or should we take some email stuff? Let's do some emails, I think.
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+[30:26] All right, do some emails. Yeah, I heard there was someone, but I heard that which means we lost them. Uh okay. Uh let's see, we want I'm probably, you know, it's nice that we're getting some calls, which means I probably won't get to all of the email questions. Anything that I miss this week, I will try to get uh next week.
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+[30:41] Uh Michael writes in about nutmeg. Here's a question. I recently ordered a set of food great essential oils from uh Aftelier, which is Mandy Aftel. Do you work with her over there? She's like, we haven't worked with any works with Daniel Patterson for a while, and then that's uh Yeah, and she's good buddies with uh Harold McGee.
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+[30:56] Yeah, and so she has she's a basically a perfumer uh out of uh San Francisco or thereabouts Bay Area, and she does a lot of interesting uh stuff. And she actually has a line in William Snowman now that just launched, but I haven't seen it because I haven't been in William Snowman like how long. I still go. You know what I mean? I'm forbidden to buy kitchen equipment people, by the way.
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+[31:11] Like literally, if I brought another anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, anyway. Uh so recently ordered uh ordered a set of food great essential oils from uh Aftelier.
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+[31:21] Uh fun stuff, especially for those of us that don't have a rotovap. Well, the rotor vap doesn't make essential oils, just be clear on this. Rotovap does distillation, but not the steam distillation that is what happens when you're making essential oils. It's kind of a different piece of equipment. I don't do the steam distillation because I don't have a rig for it.
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+[31:36] Anyway, you guys have the ball or rotovap, the huge one. You know what? Come hang out. Let's play. You know what?
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+[31:41] The thing is, is like I say like a any anything I ever negative I I would ever say about these guys is strictly due to jealousy. Just straight up jealousy. All right. Oh god. Uh okay so uh one of the items in my set is nutmeg essential oil.
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+[31:53] I seem to remember from reading Soul on Ice, which is I guess Eldritch Cleaver's book, uh, that nutmeg was a popular prison hallucinogen with horrible side effects. So now I'm a little scared to use this stuff. Is there a chance that the hallucinogen is concentrated or conversely a reason to believe it was left behind uh left behind other other words not in the oil uh to make sure it's completely safe. Okay. Look uh the the compound there's a several possible psychoactive compounds in nutmeg uh one of them is uh moristocin is the kind of famous one uh parsley seed oil has a lot of it and if you go to Arrowid which is like the place where kind of uh mm thinking druggies go to put down their kind of mental thoughts on this is where I go.
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+[32:32] Uh most of those people aren't using nutmeg uh they're using uh parsley seed oil which has a high concentration of this in various cap capsules. Listen, uh that compound uh maristosin is uh is aromatic and it's actually characteristic of nutmeg so uh there is no way that you uh making a dish that you enjoy the taste of uh are going to uh get poisoned. The levels would be ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah people who people who typically to get hallucinatory effect out of it uh people will do things like grate a whole nutmeg or two and then uh kind of like somehow choke it down and it's described as the most vile thing that they've ever done in their lives and then like three you know hours later they start feeling some sort of uh psychoactive effects.
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+[33:21] This is not something that you would accidentally do. Uh you know, I mean, could you take that oil, uh pack it into gel caps, uh pound it and do yourself harm? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[33:29] I mean, one of the problems with uh nutmeg is that uh so it's you know, psychoactive uh substances are kind of the you know, the the thing with them is is there there are certain psychoactive substances that uh that the danger level is fairly close to the psychoactive level, and I think nutmeg is closer than many in that kind of spectrum, which is kind of where the bad kind of uh you know rep comes from, because you know, if you eat uh one graded nutmeg, you're you know, you won't die, but if you eat like three, like there might be renal failure or something like that. So it's like and and you know, an order of uh a three is not a safety level that most druggies would be happy with, you know, between activity and death. Like it's not a happy number, like an order of magnitude is a more friendly kind of a number. Um but anyways don't worry about it. Like what I'm saying is don't worry about it.
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+[34:26] A little grading here and there. Delicious. Also, apparently, uh and again from Arrowid, uh the stuff degrades over time, similar to Thujone, which we're gonna talk about in a minute with Absinthe. And uh, in other words, so if you use nutmeg that's old, it's lost some of its principle. So, you know, even if you somehow are able to you know choke down, you know, that uh jar of McCormick ground nutmeg that's in your uh grocery uh store.
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+[34:51] It's mostly gone. Yeah, it's mostly gone. And you probably not that I not that I recommend it. So uh don't uh don't worry. Don't worry, right?
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+[34:59] Absolutely. Don't worry. No. Uh well, you might as well do this on a on a uh similar one. We have in from uh Tom Fisher and Lance Down PA, longtime uh listener.
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+[35:07] Uh first of all, he has a centrifuge questions. Let's knock that out first, right? Okay, cool. Okay, before we get to the food zone. Uh got my centrifuge.
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+[35:14] Good. I'm glad to hear it. That's one of all of our favorite pieces of equipment. Yeah, centrifuge. My baby.
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+[35:14] Yeah, you're on the cutting edge, by the way. Like in 15 years, many more high quality restaurants are gonna have centrifuges, and people won't think that that you're a freak show when you suggest that they go get one. It's it's coming to homes too. This is the next uh cuisine arts uh, you know. Really?
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+[35:33] They're gonna make one? I think so. I think they were very curious about it yesterday. So let's see. Really?
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+[35:39] Oh, but by the way, before we get to this question, uh yesterday was the ISCP uh I didn't go because I had a bunch of events I had to do, but uh they the I thank you. The uh the award ceremony, and last year uh Modernist Cuisine was about to come out, and I co-hosted with Chris Young, you know, with the one of the other authors, and uh we were I was telling him joking that next year if you don't win every damned book award, uh you know, it's gonna be uh a travesty. And uh in fact you guys won three. We won three. Including one that they made up for you.
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+[36:08] Right? Like profound what was it? Was it? It was uh oh god, it was like just inve invent like a future invention or you know, it's it was they were very gracious, and we were very very honored to receive these awards. Bad bad year to write a different book.
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+[36:23] Uh anyway, okay. Uh in the cooking world that is, okay. So uh especially a professional book and or one that purports to have amazing photographs, because you're just gonna get swamped. Anyway, okay. So got a centrifuge and spun me some strawberries, uh, but I have an issue.
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+[36:37] I tossed the strawberries in the blender, added two grams uh per le per no, two grams of uh pectonex ultra spl, which is a pectinx enzyme, uh for 500 grams of strawberry. That's you know, more dose than you need. You could probably do one in that amount, but two's not gonna hurt you. You just don't want to put so much pectanex in that it uh that you start it has a slightly fermented aroma, but that's fine. Don't worry about it.
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+[36:57] Uh blended until slightly warm, good practice. Rested ten minutes, good practice, ten to twenty, good practice. Uh, if you do something that's going to break down like bananas, you don't want to rest it any longer than ten because it'll start to get kind of brown uh flavors. Uh and spun for ten minutes. I would you don't say what speed.
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+[37:13] I'm assuming you have a centrifuge that'll do about four thousand times the force of gravity. Ten minutes is on the edge, ten to fifteen is better at those speeds, just because uh it will clarify almost instantly, but the puck solidity is gonna get a lot higher when you go faster. Okay, got a very solid puck and crystal clear juice. Glad to hear it. But on top was a layer of what appeared to be the same material as the puck, but floating on top like a vinegar mother, scooping it out, clouded the juice, but spinning for five minutes more, clear it up nicely.
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+[37:37] Is this result of air bubbles trapped in the mix? Yes. Yeah. If you have a vacuum machine, vacuum that sucker out, break it before I get the air out, no problem. No problem.
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+[37:45] Right? Absolutely. All right. I mean, this is something that you know Maxime and I do every day. And uh glad to hear glad it running all day.
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+[37:52] Yeah. Ours actually is acting up. I have to get a new motor. Okay. Yeah, it's nice.
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+[37:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh if you're using a centrifuge that only goes up to about 4,000 uh G's, the buckets really aren't it's not like a hazard to life and limb, but your motors will have to be replaced eventually. It's about a $900 problem in the one we have. Anyway. Uh now the second question, the different question.
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+[38:13] Uh absinthe. Years ago when absinthe first be first became legal legal to sell in the US, I bought a bottle. Uh and the maker seemed very energetic about saying it was free of contaminants like Thujone from the wormwood. It's not a contaminant, it's an ingredient. Contaminant.
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+[38:26] People are so crazy. All right. Uh it seemed all right. Yeah, right. Anyway, uh it seemed uh all right, but nothing to write home about.
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+[38:33] More recently, a friend got a bottle and was telling me about it, saying it was made from the original illegal formula. I said I'd like to try uh I said I'd try the Thujone free version years ago and laughed and said thujone free absinthe is like alcohol free rum. Thujone is what makes it special. So what's the real deal? Uh thanks for doing the show every week.
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+[38:44] Okay. So look, Thujone is uh another purported uh hallucinogenic uh uh you know psychoactive uh compound that is found in wormwood, which is one of the it's the characteristic herb from uh other than the anise taste. Right. Yeah, uh from um absinthe. Uh, you know, and all of the later ones like, you know, not later, but different ones like Preneau, not the regul the regular one, or or Ricard or Pastis or any one of these southern French, like I'm a I'm a small man in Marseille drinking stuff.
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+[39:21] Not small, but old. I don't mean small physically, but it's delicious. Yeah, it's good. But it's especially good in the summer in Marseille when you're sitting out, you know what I mean? Marseille is a great town, by the way.
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+[39:30] Yeah. Yeah. Marseille, fantastic town. I really like it. Anyway, uh point is that uh uh Thujon in uh there's a lot of research out there.
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+[39:39] The one that you should go uh look at again, you can get to it via uh Arrowid vaults, but uh there's a bunch of papers out there um where they studied old pre ban uh absinthe bottles and found that modern absinthe has roughly similar levels to uh older absinthe, that the longer that uh and that's not really high enough to get you cranked up on Thujone by itself unless you drank so much that the ethanol is gonna have you stumbling and falling over. So is there some sort of synergism between like the smaller amount of Thujone that's actually in absinthe and you know, who knows? Who can tell? But like most of the studies that have been done, quantitative studies out there, point to the fact that uh really what's happening is you're getting drunk. Uh and uh I mean and horribly drunk, especially if you're trying to see uh how much absinthe it takes you to have a thhujone effect, you're going to be plastered.
+
+[40:33] Plus there's the placebo effect, right? Uh the other the other thing is is that wormwood, uh thujone quantity in wormwood, and this has also been checked, goes down radically as it's stored on drying. So if you have your own wormwood uh or other Artemis species sitting around and you um and you then uh like take it right away and make absinthe, you're gonna have much higher thujone levels than if you take a commercially prepared one that you get in an herb shop that's been dried and sitting around for a year uh and you're gonna get a much uh lower quality of thujone but e uh uh quantity, but even so uh the numbers seem to indicate that you're not gonna get crunked on the uh on the thujone, that you're gonna get shellacked by the ethanol. Now, uh uh uh uh thujone is uh it's is it oregano or sage oil? It's one of those two.
+
+[41:17] Go look it up on the internets uh and it's super high in thujone. I'm not telling you to go take this. Right. But if you need to know what thhujone uh uh goes like, go get a proper dose uh response related, you know, uh relationship off of the internet's uh any one of these uh you know herbal drug sites has many, many users who have uh put this stuff in. Make sure that you don't listen to anyone that doesn't tell you um like relative quantities in different oils and also uh body weight phenomena, things like this, because you want to get your doses uh right.
+
+[41:48] And I've never I've never tried it. But you know what? I've tried other things that uh people like supposed have supposed psychoactive effects, like for instance, you know, uh when I was in Columbia we were doing coca leaf infusions with coca leaf tea. And yeah, and uh I've never done cocaine, so I don't know what what that's like. I I didn't feel anything different, but I had people who had a lot more than I did report that uh it kept them up at night, for instance.
+
+[42:10] So there was but uh but a lot of this extra energy. Right, but a lot of this could just be mental. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. If you tell someone you're having coca leaf infusion.
+
+[42:18] There's an excitement, there's a there's uh there's a psychological reaction, which is yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Uh okay, let's take one more commercial break. Did we have time to take one more commercial break?
+
+[42:29] All right, let's take one more commercial break. Call your questions to 718497-2128. 718497-2128 cooking issues. She's a good old pal. She looks like water fellow and I and deep river blue.
+
+[43:31] Ain't no one gonna cry from me and fish overlap. Deep river blue. And welcome back to cooking Issues. By the way, I'm not uh Angela Gabotz, one of my favorite interns of all time, uh, wrote in from Nebraska, but I'm not gonna have time to get your uh question this time. I'm gonna get you next time, Angela.
+
+[43:55] All right, on to the last question of the day. And I really want to talk w about this with Maxime because it's something I I think that he's probably interested in. Steve Crendell uh writes in, uh you know, have you seen the paper, this interesting paper on uh food pairing hypothesis uh and it's called uh Flavor Network and the Principles of Food Pairing by uh uh young uh young Yill on et al. Okay. And it was a paper uh last year by you know by a peop bunch of people in a in a um out of a bunch of different uh institutions.
+
+[44:25] Uh anyway, so what I I haven't had chance really to have uh Maxime look at the paper. So we're not gonna talk specifically about uh the paper, more about just the general uh the general concept of it. Um but the basic concept of food pairing uh has been uh popular over the last uh I don't know, what do you think? The decade or so? At least, yeah, ten, fifteen years.
+
+[44:48] I mean, really, and it's something that uh, you know, at the fat duck you're exposed to a lot. Yeah, but the basic premise is is that you can get uh and it's controversial and Maxime and I, we've never discussed it together, so we m we might violently disagree, which would be awesome way to end the show. Uh but the uh the the basic principle is that you can learn something about food pairing, so get interesting food pairing ideas by looking at the actual chemical similarities between different food items. Right. And so uh what what happens is is there's large databases of uh what flavor components are in various different ingredients, and then those are analyzed and uh the fat duck was famous for which ones?
+
+[45:29] The w the white chocolate and caviar both had uh a very similar uh uh volatile components and it was very interesting. Was it good? I actually never had it. I knew the idea. Then I had uh uh co uh uh uh uh cocoa and roasted cauliflower, also both shared uh a compound, and that was a it was a beautiful marriage and makes no sense in you know in in sort of a traditional context.
+
+[45:51] But when you taste it together, you realize that there is there is definitely value to uh approaching it that way. I don't think is as it's as consistent and as secure of uh an approach that that people will will will presume when they're when they're really getting into this approach. The study, which you should read, is actually quite interesting. What they've done is they've taken uh a bunch of recipe databases uh and then they've analyzed uh the recipe databases to see whether when you scan across many thousands of recipes, uh is there more often than not shared ingredient the shared ingredient flavor components or not. A pattern right.
+
+[46:29] And in the Western uh corpus, there was, and it was correlated that more than the statistically random amount of recipe shared flavor components. Right. And in their East Asian uh data analysis, uh fewer than the statistically uh number of shared ones with and and but what it boiled down to the really interesting thing is is that basically what it is is that 75% of the recipes they pulled in Western cuisine shared a very small number of flavor uh a small number of ingredients, and those ingredients shared a lot of things, like butter, milk, like like a lot of this is very simple uh yeah. Right, and the six most common uh you know, Asian ingredients didn't share a lot of characteristics, and so because those things basically weighted everything out, and all of the other recipes, if you remove the most common uh you know, six to ten ingredients out of uh out of our out of our tool kits, then it's basically statistically random in terms of that, which is interesting. Here's you know, my personal feeling about it is that anything that gives you an idea that's gonna make you uh that's gonna g give you a good flavor then fine do it whether it's like throwing dice uh using a uh you know a a dowsing rod whatever in the hell it is if it gives you a good idea it's good uh but that you know nothing in the world there's no no chemical analysis is going to replace your memory your taste palette you you what you've done before like you might get an idea and then try it and then know how to tweak it but there's just there is no there is no substitute for having tasted a lot and having cooked a lot.
+
+[47:59] Absolutely absolutely and to to sort of you know it's interesting the the the um I guess the the parallel between Western cuisine and and and eastern cuisine and and how we're we're noticing the the the these correlations um what I think is really interesting about Eastern cuisine in this sense is that you know taking away the the sort of uh chemical uh balance of of a few few uh ingredients um is is the balance of flavor and and what I love about Eastern cuisine is that you you know you now we're talking about uh flavor I mean uh uh the the the tastes uh uh salty bitter sweet acid um and uh and and and and and paying less attention to this you know this sort of you know sort of artificial combination of things that that may have uh uh a synergy or not uh right uh and so if if if when you build a sense uh uh when you build your palate uh the balance of of flavors is you know b through practice becomes a very inherent part of your of your you know culinary experience and a lot of these things may be more confusing or or misleading. Right, but I think I think what happened what happens is is is with anything else. Look, the people who are using these kinds of ideas uh right, or you know, in modern schisine using new pieces of new pieces of equipment, new techniques, whatever. These are usually in general a very highly creative set of people and they're looking for inspiration. Like, and I've said this many times, like the the the fundamental thing that Farran gave us was the desire to look outside of the normal uh kitchen for our inspiration.
+
+[49:36] You know what I mean? And yeah, and that that's the thing. It's not foams or whatever. It's this it's this it's this intense curiosity and this uh uh you know love of learning. And so as cooks do this, they you know they're looking for very you know di you know di different and disparate sources of uh of inspiration.
+
+[49:54] And is is this idea of uh different chemic different chemical uh shared things could that be a source of inspiration? Of course. Sure, of course. Sure. Of course.
+
+[50:01] But someone who doesn't have the palate to back it up, doesn't have the experience to back it up, it will be confusing, as you say. And it can be a disaster. A horrible disaster. Horrible. Yes.
+
+[50:10] So why don't we end this show on horrible disaster? Thank you, Maxim. Thank you, Donna. See you next week on cooking issues. All right.
+
+[50:32] Oh, you're dead. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network and the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information.
+
+[50:58] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live to the cosmos from the backyard at Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network. In the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez not here today, but we are currently joined in the studio with uh Brooks Headley, the master pastry chef of Del Posto Restaurant.
+
+[0:40] And uh some of you uh might not know, a uh longtime hardcore musician, true? Uh yeah. Yeah it's uh it's a very uh checkered past, so well I mean and present. You still play occasionally, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
+
+[0:54] I mean you like you know, Austin the whole nine. What's your current band? Uh or bandzah. Uh it's it's it's called Crash. Crash?
+
+[1:02] Yeah. You've had names that were a little more less safe for work, haven't you in the past or no? No, I mean they're all pretty safe, so yeah. It's just words. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:09] And what do you what do you uh just words, I like that. And uh what do you uh what are you playing in the band? Uh I've always played drums. It's the only thing I know how to do. I did people that can play multiple instruments piss me off.
+
+[1:19] So I like that. I like you know what pisses me off is people who uh do like more than one thing at a time. It's like what the hell, you know. It's like uh I mean I I was never uh I was never much of a hardcore guy. Are you hardcore or just like what do you think?
+
+[1:33] Will you classify yourself as hardcore? Uh I don't know. I mean uh just hate classification like every band member ever? No, uh it's uh I I I don't know. I I don't even know anymore.
+
+[1:40] So uh people you play with, what are they categorized as? Um I don't think they know either. So uh yeah, so uh people who play multiple instruments, especially in in uh in any genre of music where kind of like how good you are depends on how much physical energy you throw into the performance, right? Which I don't know about your music. That's the way I was if you do more than one thing, it's like you're just not spending enough energy doing the one thing that you're doing.
+
+[2:03] You're just not you're not paying enough attention, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, to a certain yeah. I I I go with that. So Ariel Johnson, our favorite PhD candidate at University of California Davis. In what depart here, uh Ariel grav a mic over here.
+
+[2:19] Okay. Uh I don't really know what department she's in. Uh yeah, she's gonna climb over me, folks, so you're gonna hear a pause. Oh, she's going back at me. Strong, strong.
+
+[2:27] Uh I really don't know what department she's in, but uh she deals as we we deal with her mainly in the in the area of uh flavor and uh studies of flavor. And uh her speciality on her piece of equipment is a uh very nice uh uh gas chromatograph that can do uh small volumes for food. Describe this crap. Okay, so um my home department is viticulture and analogy, but I do all kinds of flavor chemistry. Um but the GC that we have lets us uh separate complex mixtures of aromas and combine any amount that we want and then analyze their smell.
+
+[3:03] That's a gas chromatograph for all you fools out there. Oh sorry. Uh and uh and so basically uh what uh correct me when I'm wrong, but this what this piece of equipment does, and it's something that we all want, none of us own, uh what this basically does you take a sample uh and uh it's a s slowly kind of uh I guess the word is eluded or drawn through a long column. Yeah. Uh and the uh rate at which things are are drawn through is uh characteristic for each uh compound.
+
+[3:28] So you you will you will separate it based on how fast it goes through this column. True or false? True. Definitely true. Right.
+
+[3:35] Yeah, so you start with a complex mixture and each component interacts differently with the column and then it loses it in nice order. Right. And then how do how does it how do you check then? This is for people out there. How do you then check how much of that compound uh is there as it goes through?
+
+[3:50] Well, we have a detector called a mass spectrometer. Yeah. That uh that shows the amount of each compound as a peak and the area under the peak is related to concentration. All right. So now all you folks who don't already know this, which most of our listeners probably do, but if you don't, when you're watching the CSI Miami and they say uh do they still have that show?
+
+[4:09] Uh I don't have a TV. I don't know. Anyway, uh so anyway, so uh uh when they do that, they're like, ah G C mass spec. That's what they're talking about. Gas chromatograph, and then through a mass spectrometer.
+
+[4:20] But uh the cool thing about Ariel's one is that you can uh true or false, you can bottle the crap and sniff it yourself when you're done, right? Yeah, we uh we use liquid CO2 to condense everything down and remix it and then smell it. Man, man, man, meh, man. Liquid CO2. CO2 for uh liquid CO2 for all of you guys out there is like one of the world's uh great solvents, and it's also uh relatively uh nice and uh clean, simple and friendly to use in a in a lab, assuming you have the equipment.
+
+[4:46] Yes? Yes. Yeah. Also does very little to uh degrade it's it's fairly neutral and that doesn't degrade most of the things you're working with, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:55] Okay. I mean I don't know whether I mean I'm sure most of the solvents they use don't degrade things, otherwise they wouldn't use them. That's true. Yeah, okay. Uh all right, so call in all of your questions, either about uh uh flavor chemistry or about world's greatest pastries, or about any random uh bull crap you choose to 7184972128, that's 7184972128.
+
+[5:17] And uh while we're at it last week, we made the horrible mistake of not talking about our sponsors, Modernist pantry. Have any of you guys used the Modernist pantry before? I've seen the website. Seen the website? But you know, you've already you've had your suppliers for years, so you probably like you know, have you ever used it?
+
+[5:28] I never have. I have an order I keep meaning to buy from them. Yeah. No, maybe maybe now's the time. I I haven't either, uh I'm ashamed to say, but I have sent uh many people to them and uh have heard only good things.
+
+[5:45] Uh so here is this week's uh what do you call it? Plug? Plug? Plug? Sure.
+
+[5:50] Okay. Okay. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution.
+
+[6:04] They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around five bucks. Saving you time, money, and storage space. Presumably they just size whatever it is they're using to a five dollar size, right? I mean, you know, it's like you could say that crack only costs five bucks, but then they keep making the size of the crack vial smaller and smaller.
+
+[6:25] True. Uh I'll take that. Like with Coca-Cola moving to a 20-ounce bottle. What? Well, they used to only have small bottles and then they moved to 20 ounce, but charge the same price.
+
+[6:35] Wait. Wait, wait, so wait, sweet. So they but you're talking about like the liter went down to a 20, because I always bought 20s to pound like a 20 is a nice, I'm gonna pound this right now size. Yeah, in like a vending machine. Oh, in a vending machine.
+
+[6:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. I haven't purchased Coca-Cola from vending machine in a long time. My wife will not let me purchase uh soda for the children, even though uh I grew up I I only drank carbonated beverages growing up, except for a very short kind of crystal light phase that I went through where I only drank crystal light. And and for those of you out there Crystal Light is actually a huge influence on me, so really?
+
+[7:08] Yeah, yeah. For real? You also grew up drinking the crystal light or just later. I always hated it and I thought it tasted terrible, but hugely influential in how I look at food for sure. Really?
+
+[7:18] Yeah, yeah. And now is true true or false, you only use aspartame in all of your recipes. That's it. That's it, completely. Only aspartame.
+
+[7:24] Uh we're lying, by the way. That that was a joke for all of you who are very concrete thinkers out there. That is not the case. Uh wait with the the problem is is if you drink uh diet sodas and or diet lemonade mixes or whatever, they have horrible new fake mocktails, by the way, crystal. I haven't tried them, but the idea is horrible.
+
+[7:42] They have a powder that they label mojito, which is that's an impossibility to have a mojito powder. That sounds gross. Yeah, it's horrible. Especially, you know, I'm sure they don't use aspartame anymore. I detest stevia, by the way.
+
+[7:53] Anyone out there who tries to call me up and say that your stevia is better than anyone else's, the freaking plant tastes bad. I've tasted it like directly, like grown, I've walked up to the plant, ta pick the leaf off and be like, yes, that awful metallic, bitter, crappy aftertaste is inherent to the product. And not mean unless and what I freaking love about this is that there are companies who sit there working around how to mask the incredibly awful taste. Yeah. Anyway, it's it's it's pretty gross.
+
+[8:21] Yeah, so uh for those of you that are like, well, why don't you just drink the regular wind? It's because uh those of us uh uh who drink predominantly diet liquids don't like to drink flat water for our hydration. We don't enjoy the flat water. We are throwbacks, some sort of Lamarckian genetic throwback to the days when water was poisonous, and none of us like to drink that. And so uh the issue is is if you were to drink regular soda uh or regular lemonade as your sole source of uh hydration, that would be absurd.
+
+[8:52] Like who wants to drink a jug of maple syrup every day? Very few of us, right? So, where diet soda drinkers are coming from is we inure ourselves to the horrible aftertaste and eventually you learn to like it, right? If you haven't done it in a long time, you know it's hard sometimes to go back. But you you kind of get over that taste hump, and uh then all of a sudden uh it doesn't bother you anymore, and we pound we pound liter after liter of this crap every day.
+
+[9:14] Now, that is why when you are shopping for somebody's party uh and you are a regular soda drinker, you make the uh the horrible error of purchasing equal amounts of diet soda and regular soda. When anybody knows if even two diet soda drinkers show up to your party, they will pound every amount of diet soda that you have provided. You all know this to be true. Uh anyway, my recommendation to you is instead of getting on these crappy, like you know, mojito powder. First of all, there first if if you're gonna put alcohol into it, just make it a real drink.
+
+[9:43] Otherwise, you're a bad person. But uh I don't I didn't mean that strongly, maybe, but kind of close, right? Yeah, you should you should stand by that. Yeah, all right, okay. Uh but uh my my big suggestion is learn to like seltzer.
+
+[9:55] When I was a kid, uh I always drank soda, so I was bubbles all the way back, like all the way back, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, my whole life, bubbles. I started on TAB in the 70s, all right? Bubbles. But uh, but uh I didn't like seltzer for a long time, and then when I was going to uh the college, I realized that um that it was gonna be cheaper for me to drink uh seltzer water. And I'm really I'm a cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap man.
+
+[10:19] And so at that time a cheap, cheap, cheap boy. And so what I did was I uh uh I trained myself over the course of a couple of weeks to uh like the seltzer, and then much like diet soda flavors in general, aspartame at the time, uh you learn to love it, and now uh I'll never go back. I'm uh I'm a seltzer man forever. Back to the Modernist pantry. Uh this all came from the the five bucks thing.
+
+[10:43] So I that's where I was. Okay, whether you are looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients.
+
+[10:59] Modernist Pantry carries three types of spray-dried vinegar powder white, malt, and balsamic. By the way, if you use vinegar powder, you gotta realize acetic acid is volatile, right? It's one of the few uh acids that we use in cooking that is extremely volatile. A lot of organic acids are volatile. But uh, and and this gives a lot of characteristic flavor uh, you know, aromas and flavors to uh certain uh alcoholic beverages, distilled beverages.
+
+[11:21] But the majority of acids that we deal with on a daily basis in the kitchen citric acid, malic acid, tartaric acid, uh non-volatile. Uh acetic acid is. So if you get sprayed dried vinegar powder, it has the flavor, like a taste of a vinegar, but they've almost no acidity. And so uh when you're adding a vinegar powder or something to make it acidic, you will have to cheat it with uh another acid. So uh typical cheetah acid would be citric acid because it's the most neutral of the dry powdered acids that uh that you can um buy.
+
+[11:52] Uh and people are used to associating uh the kind of lemony acid hit uh of citric acid with culinary acid in general. And so uh apparently there are cheetah acids out there that are specifically meant to give the acidic kick to things like potato chips. I don't have source I had a guy who slipped me his card once, he's like, I make them call me, but Nastasha, I don't know whether she ever called the guy. Uh so I don't have the source for them yet, and I can't tell you what they are. So if you buy it, I would also suggest buying from them um some citric acid uh powder.
+
+[12:24] The one gripe I have with the commercial citric acid powders is the granule size is relatively large. It's somewhere in between uh U.S. granulated sugar and and uh and a and a U.S. super fine sugar. So it's a little bit too granular for me for the c compared to the spray-dried powders, which are very, very powdery because of the method in which they're made.
+
+[12:42] So there's no ideal solution yet. Maybe buy some citric acid, pulse it in a spice grinder for a little while to try and get it a little more powdered so that it integrates better with the uh vinegar powder. Anyway, okay. We carry three types of spray-dried vinegar powders white, malt and balsamic. Fans of cooking issues, it place an order of $25 or more before next week's show.
+
+[12:59] We'll get a free package of malt vinegar powder. Good choice, malt vinegar powder, good stuff. Uh which is perfect for making modernist fish and chips. Do they use that in the fish and chips recipe in the modernist cuisine? Anyone?
+
+[13:09] Anyone? Not sure. Should have had that crap on last week when Maxine was here. Simply use the promo code CI80 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[13:22] Okay. So uh by the way, you know, I have no idea whether these guys are pissed off or not that I constantly like stop in the middle of their promos and like make comments and whatnot. I mean, I think that's why they keep coming back. I think they like it. Really?
+
+[13:35] Yeah, who knows? Uh all right. So uh hey Brooks, I I don't know you haven't uh because by the way, folks. If you don't know me, I'm a jerk, and I haven't uh given Brooks any of the information that we're gonna talk about before the show. So he has no idea what the hell's going on.
+
+[13:48] I I I plan to be completely sandbagged here. So that's how that's how it goes. So we're gonna start though, uh, with the reason Ariel, we I hadn't planned on uh uh having her on the show today, but she wrote in a comment based on the kind of flavor pairings uh question we had last week and the paper on flavor pairings. By the way, I'm gonna buy that book by that Somaye who's very interested in this. Oh, the taste buds and molecules.
+
+[14:11] Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I don't I have no judgment on it because I have not read it yet. I refuse to make uh comments on things I haven't read yet, either pro or negative. The reviews are mixed on Amazon, but mainly about the graphics presentation of it, which some people really like and some people really hate.
+
+[14:26] But uh I'm gonna check it. But so for those of you that don't know what uh what in the hell we're talking about, flavor pairing is this concept, I think largely bunk, uh, and by bunk I mean crap, that uh you should be able to pick out uh the different flavors that you use uh based on their underlying chemical composition. Uh in other words, if if uh parrot meat shares a specific uh flavor compound with uh donkey poo that you might want to put the parrot and the donkey poo together in a dish. I obviously I don't really mean but whatever. Don't kill parrots.
+
+[15:05] Uh but um But eat donkey poo. Well, that's up to you. I mean you're not hurting it. In other words, like no one's gonna get angry at you for it. True.
+
+[15:13] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh and you know, my family's had parrots, please. I don't know no comments on how I'm anti-parent. I'm pro pared.
+
+[15:18] I want to get a parrot action. My wife doesn't like birds. But I want a bird because my kids want a pet, but we have no room for a dog. My we can't have cats because we're allergic to the cats, and that my sister-laws is allergic to the cats, but I want a pet that they that will give a crap about people, and parrots are like the other pet that cares about people, even though they're weird about it, like they're weird about it because they're birds, but anyway, whatever anyway. So we're talking about this concept.
+
+[15:38] There's this uh paper that came out recently that actually what they did is they did a mass database uh data mining study of recipes. Uh, and then uh those recipes, they looked to see whether or not they shared uh chemical The hammer just walked in. Nastasha. Uh they compared those recipes to see whether or not there was any actual uh w whether it's true that recipes that we tend to make over the course of decades, years, centuries, actually share more flavor components than would be if you just chose recipes at random, which is the horrible idea that Air Vetis actually espouses that we should make sauces on uh uh randomly based on a computer, have them generated, and then see whether or not they taste good, which seems to me to be uh the monkey typing Shakespeare way of making food, which is uh preposterous and horrible. Uh so uh Brooks, you familiar with this taste pairing hypothesis crap?
+
+[16:27] Um not not entirely not so far, I mean I know I presented it in a rather biased jaundice light. Does it sound like a good idea, or would you prefer to base flavor combinations on the years you've spent tasting and and cooking? Yeah, I mean I mean it's like uh it's all it's repetition, you know. Yeah. Like repetition of of making things or tasting things.
+
+[16:50] Um like you kind of like build your palate, I guess. Yeah, that's the way I think about it. So area that just seems just like normal. So yeah, and of course, like you know, now like it's very rare that I'm in the position of being like the old Kajer son of a bitch who's like modern stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:08] But like it seems to me that uh look in the end, anything that helps you make better food, good idea. Like I don't care what your inspiration is. If your inspiration is, you know, looking at constellations and somehow looking at constellations and you have some sort of matrix that then like gets your creative juices flowing and your food ends up tasting good, bueno. But you know what I mean? The cr the crystal light logo.
+
+[17:27] Yeah, sure. Like sure, Brooks. Yeah, that that splash. Brooks, the splash on the crystal light logo, apparently Brooks is now telling me true or false, that's the inspiration for all of your cooking. Not all of it, but a lot a lot of the fruit based things for sure.
+
+[17:38] What about the celery sorbet? Your amazing celery sorbet? Um no, I don't think that had anything to do with the crystal crystal light logo. So please, please. For those of you that don't know, by the way, before I I'm gonna get Arielle on this in a second, uh uh about the um what she thinks about it.
+
+[17:52] And I want her to give me her unvarnished opinion, pro or pop pro or negative, because nothing I like better than a good a good uh argument. But uh Brooks, and we've said this a million times on the show, uh, you know, but whenever you try and say that he's doing innovative work, uh he'll say he's not. But the fact of the matter is makes uh delicious uh desserts that you aren't expecting. So for me, that's uh that's innovation right there. What do you think?
+
+[18:15] Nastache, what do you think? You have to s you have to speak up, you're not by a microphone. Yeah, okay. Uh so Ariel, what do you what are what are your thoughts on uh what are your thoughts on this flavor pairing stuff? On flavor pairing or on this paper?
+
+[18:26] Uh uh first give me flavor pairing, nutshell, and then this paper in you know another another separate nutshell. Well, I would imagine that um shared compounds and shared volatiles may play some role in a novel flavor pairing, whether or not someone eating it likes it or not, but it's not gonna be a deterministic uh guarantee that a pairing will work. And it might have to do more with the non shared compounds and how those go together when you make a a pairing out of out of things. So what you're saying is that it may or may not have any relevance at all. Yes.
+
+[18:58] Uh do you find it an interest like is it interesting to you that uh as a as a as a starting point or as a framework in which to work? Do you think have you seen any dishes that have come out of it that would otherwise not have uh come into the world that you think are gonna be here for a long time because they're so freaking awesome? Well, I don't know that I could comment on uh longevity, but I have had some interesting like uh orange and beetroot type things that Heston Blumenthal made and that makes sense to me. Well, it makes sense to you, but would it make sense to to anybody? In other words, orange and beets don't sound like they're so they're not so far off.
+
+[19:36] I mean, like they make they make sense to me from a cook's perspective, right? Yeah, no, that doesn't sound weird, though. Yeah. Like liver and jasmine sounds weird. So then well, yeah.
+
+[19:46] Like that sounds weird. I've never had that one. Yeah, but I mean that's one of the classics. Yeah, yeah. I have had the the white chocolate and caviar before.
+
+[19:53] Yeah, yeah. Maxine was talking about that lesson. How is that? Yeah, I just tasted it. It was um it depends on the proportion between white chocolate and caviar, but it can be kind of cool.
+
+[20:01] Also, caviar is such a wide-ranging flavor. That's true. And white chocolate is evil. Yeah, it's true. Also true.
+
+[20:09] Thank God we have Brooks here, man. That's awesome. Okay, so uh what? Wait a minute, we're not done talking about this paper yet. Then we'll take a break.
+
+[20:16] All right. So uh and by the way, while we're taking a break, you better call in your freaking questions to 7184972128, 7184972128. Okay. Now about the paper. Well by the way, can I?
+
+[20:26] Yeah, t describe the paper very quickly too. Okay, so what the the paper did, they took a gigantic set of recipes online, I think from all recipes and some Korean site. But oh yeah, they did a Korean site to see whether or not Western perception of Korean food was the same as Korean perception of Korean food, right? So they took this gigantic online recipe database and uh took each recipe and looked at the ingredients in each, and then from some handbook of essential oils and a couple of other things determined what compounds were in each ingredient. Which is a horseshit technique, right?
+
+[20:53] Well, considering that the uh aroma character of any given compound is dependent on concentration and they didn't look at concentration, I'm not sure how relatable to flavor their data set actually is. Wildly dependent, right? Oh, extremely. I'm told I'm what I meant to say was horse poop. Uh yeah, so in other words, uh you you'll know off the tip of your tongue, but like certain things can go from being like pleasantly grassy to vomit, like depending on concentration, right?
+
+[21:16] Yeah, ethyl butyrate is a good example of that. Uh that at a nice medium concentration smells like green apple. Um as you increase the concentration, it starts smelling like rotten apples and then finally like feet or really, really stinky cheese. Wasn't that the name of your last band? Ethel butyrate.
+
+[21:30] Come on, man. Like ethyl ethyl merman butyrate. That's your next band. Ethel mermin butyrate. Uh you know, Brooks sometimes will have like nano bands that like, you know, are only there.
+
+[21:40] Maybe one of them could be ethylum and butyrate. Like a pop-up. Yeah, it's a microband. Microband. A nano band.
+
+[21:44] Yeah, nanoband. Uh okay. Uh so uh was that the only gripe you had about the paper? I think the site was it all recipes? I think it was all recipes.
+
+[21:51] I think it was all recipes. And uh the take. Every recipe on that's is one of Brooks's by the way. Every single one. Okay, so I won't hate on it too much.
+
+[21:58] Um I don't know uh actually what recipes went into their data set and they didn't give a list, but if you look at the uh primary ingredients for what they call North American recipes, it's all butter, eggs, wheat, sugar, and cream, which suggests to me that uh the recipes they use to represent North American cuisine are desserts. And there's so much more to North American cuisine than just desserts. I mean desserts. Although it is what we are be it's just what we're best at as opposed to what other people are good at. But I don't think all of North American flavor pairing in a uh cultural context could be described just by cake recipes on all recipes.
+
+[22:31] Right. The other problem is is that uh the cook cooked aroma of those is vastly different from the I mean, no one thinks that if you were to gather the ingredients for a pie, they do not the smell of a cooked pie make. That is true. Um in fact th the the the compounds aren't even there yet. They're all in precursor form.
+
+[22:49] Um the s but what's interesting about it is that the the findings of the study are basically if you remove a certain subset of things like these very basic ingredients from either Asian cuisine or uh you know, West what they call Western whom who the hell knows because we don't have the recipes, um turns out that uh they don't share any more than would be statistically r randomly uh associated. You know, once you take out the top six ingredients or something. So, but you you say you you you would be loath to take these this study on to accept either a positive or negative finding because you think the methodology is poor. Yeah, I think large data-driven uh studies like this are valuable and interesting, but they're only as good as the data sets that they use, and I think that their data set and their approach are flawed to make the uh too flawed to make the broad conclusions that they do. Yeah, pretty pictures though.
+
+[23:42] Did I mention that? Oh, yeah, cool. Cool. And I think that's the problem because uh the study is getting a lot of traction. Yeah.
+
+[23:48] And so people are paying a lot of attention to it, but it's one of my many gripes in the world is that is that someone makes a study, puts a big splashy like uh, you know, statement in the abstract or conclusion, and then it gets a lot of traction because no one goes back and reads the damn study. Exactly. All right. And with that, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[24:08] Take a break. Cooking issues. That had to have been Nastasha, the Downton Abbey cooking issues down Abbey edition. That's the most used break song of two thousand twelve on this stage. People love this.
+
+[25:22] Really? Yeah. Do they think that we're gonna come back with British accents and be kind of like lords and ladies? I always hope that. I want to be the servant.
+
+[25:29] I want to be your accent. I want to be I'm not gonna do the accent. We'll get Karen in here, the bartender to do it. I'm gonna come back as Mr. Bates.
+
+[25:41] Hi, this is Drilling. I I guess I just had a uh a question on whether you think of the uh the problems with this uh what's it called? The flavor uh flavor pairing. Whether that's uh whether it's flavor pairing. Or is it based on the fact that you you don't think that that's a an interesting way of finding new new flavor compounds at all?
+
+[26:07] Huh. I'll give you my perspective really quickly. Uh I'm not gonna talk about the study, I'll let Ariel do that. My feeling is that it's gonna be both I look here's here's my thing. I think um I uh fr I think it's scientifically flawed.
+
+[26:21] In other words, look, I don't think that there's any reason a priori to believe that because two ingredients share chemical compounds that they go well together, right? Uh but that said, if it is i it it's not an invalid source of inspiration for somebody if you find it interesting and inspirational and if you get good ideas from it. Any more than reading a book can give you ideas for a dish, or you know, being out in a in a field in the middle of spring and like thinking about things can give you inspiration. So I I don't there's no such thing as an invalid source of inspiration. It's just I I think that th there's no reason for me to believe that uh that that things should go together just because they share compounds.
+
+[27:07] That's my gripe. Now on the study, what do you think of it? Well, I think uh if we can go back to flavor pairing really quickly. The takeaway from that is that um there are a huge number of fascinating and interactive perceptual things that are going on between chemistry and flavor when we mix ingredients together, we just have no idea how they work yet. So so what are your what are your thoughts?
+
+[27:29] Do you think we're full of uh full of crap, or do you agree, disagree? What's your what's your take? Me? Yeah. Well, I mean, I I I think that a lot of the things you would get would be uh, you know, you've got you've got your base flavors in different cuisines, right?
+
+[27:45] And so if you were to look, if you were just take a bunch of, in this case, Korean recipes or you know, Thai recipes or anything like that, right? You're you're gonna get all these compounds that are most commonly coming up in those in those recipes, you know. So so whether that's that's the space spices or uh base urb, you know, or herbs and spices that are used a lot in those in those cuisines, they're gonna keep coming up. So I think what you would get then is just a repetitive kind of pairing that, oh you know, uh I I can't even think, you know, just you know, an Indian cuisine, you know, uh curries, you know, all the all the spices that go into there, right? Well that they're in practically everything.
+
+[28:27] So every every you know, you keep going through these uh dishes and that's what you're gonna get. So I don't I don't really see how you would get new things because I I I guess it would only come together when you're crossing cuisines and then it was like some random ingredient from one cuisine and another random ingredient in the other cuisine and they share flavor compounds, and so then you would just assume that they could be swapped out with each other. And then I think it would be I I just I I don't I don't know. I kinda see what you're saying. I mean but I I I kind of disagree that you can't get new flavors by going into look the the genius of kind of uh American cuisine, right?
+
+[29:05] We started with kind of the now much maligned kind of fusion stuff, right? Which everyone now is oh fusion, uh well, you know, that's an old gripe. Maybe people are pro-fusion again, but you know, back when I was a kid f like fusion was the passe thing, no one wanted to be labeled with the fusion label. But what we are at d at base here in the US and uh certainly uh abroad in the mo in the modernists kind of thinking if you take that as an actual movement, which you know, we can have a debate, is uh we steal things, right? So we steal things from uh industry, we steal things from uh we steal things from anything.
+
+[29:38] And so we steal things from other cultures. And so I think that the best way to steal something is to use their flavor components straight up for a while to kind of get a feel for it, and then you can take bits and pieces because you know how they work together. And so you can get r you know, really kind of new and different flavors without doing straight fusion, right? You know, flavor of India with French technique, or what would be more interesting uh the other way around, Indian technique with French ingredients. But uh the what do you what do you what do you what do you guys think about this as uh as a mode of innovation?
+
+[30:13] In other words, I don't I don't I don't I don't think it's a ness this flavor pairing thing isn't obviously is not necessary for innovation. I mean it could be interesting. It could be interesting to kind of trip your mind into new new things, but again, anything could do that. You know what I mean? I don't know.
+
+[30:27] What do you anyone, Brooks? I mean, as a as like a a base uh a form of inspiration or whatever, then sure, that's that's cool. But I mean, like, you know, when it comes down to it, it's just like tasting and and putting the things together and and doing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again until you have something that that that kind of works, you know. So I mean, I mean, I mean, I I mean, certainly uh chemistry is not as ripe a f uh a place for inspiration as the crystal light splash. But uh you want to talk about that for a second?
+
+[31:05] The splash again? Yeah. Okay. What do you like about it? I'm hoping that we can have a small commercial break and that we can get the I believe in crystal light song for our.
+
+[31:12] It just looks so refreshing that that you that that's what you want to uh sort of aspire to. I believe that you know that's the thing, is like uh not all food is meant to be refreshing, but I really like refreshing things. Like I really like I was you know, refreshing is always good. No one's like, oh my God. I went and I had a uh, you know, I had this dessert, I had this sorbet, and it was refreshing.
+
+[31:37] Oh you know what I mean? No one's ever no one's ever anti-refreshing. No one ever wants to, you know, I want the I want the heavy mental beatdown. Like for my that's what you know, I guess you know, ponderous. Who wants a ponderous meal?
+
+[31:44] Refreshing. I think I've got the ad if you want it. Yeah, all right. Let's go to a tiny micro commercial break where we're gonna do some crystal light. I believe it's be as fun as can be.
+
+[32:03] I believe in life in sugar free. I believe in crystal light goes on the linen. Crystal light drink mix is sweetened with 100% nutri-sweet, so there's no sugar, no saccharine, and no saccharine aftertaste. All these natural flavors taste so terrific. It's hard to believe there's only four calories a glass.
+
+[32:26] Oh yeah! Refreshing crystal light, only four calories per serving. No, yeah, I mean, like, what's not to love about that? It's it's not even it's everything about that is refreshing and exciting and the guitar line and the drums. It's it's it's just plain awesome.
+
+[32:42] Yeah, and and the word nutra-sweet's cool too. Yeah, yeah. Because it gives you nutrients without giving you calories, and it's sweet. That's awesome. Awesome.
+
+[32:50] No wonder I drank buckets of that stuff growing up. Man. Alright. I got a question that hopefully Brooks will enjoy from last week. Angela, our one of our favorite interns from Nebraska, land of endless possibilities, wants to make fluffy butterscotch.
+
+[33:04] Can she do it? She's using it to build a cake, uh, but she doesn't just want to do butterscotch buttercream. What's up? Why tap me? Oh, well, we're doing a show right now.
+
+[33:14] Uh, okay. So uh, okay, so Brooks, you're gonna be good at this. So the butterscotch, for those of you that don't know what the hell we're talking about, is butterscotch. And basically, you know, it's like brown sugar cooked with butter, uh, and then usually some cream is added in and it's uh turned into a sauce, right? Yes, right, salt, right?
+
+[33:31] Super important. Yes, thank you. So the question is without just using that as a basis for a buttercream, if you want to make it fluffy, what would you do? Would you make a mousse out of it? For a cake?
+
+[33:40] But you don't want to um yeah, I mean you could easily take take uh like say like make a butterscot sauce and and you know g whip egg whites into it uh to make it sort of light and moussey or whatever. Um but you need to add gelatin though so the egg whites don't break down after it sets, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like I'm I'm not that's I I wouldn't do that. So um what would you do?
+
+[34:03] Um if I wanted like a butterscotch flavor. But fluff, yeah. But fluffy. But fluffy, but not like a butter, not like a buttercream. Um honestly, I would uh I think like really perfect butterscotch sauce made with the best possible butter and uh dark brown sugar and salt and um like I would just use that and use that as a garnishing agent rather than try to make it something different because perfect butterscotch sauce is just perfect and it doesn't need to be fluffy.
+
+[34:39] So all right, so ba basically, Brooks, you're avoiding the question. Let's say you wanted that son of a gun to be fluffy. I mean in other words, like could you take something like that and make a fondant and then beat it? Uh or would the fat interfere? Uh I I mean I think like yeah, there's there's ways that it could be done.
+
+[35:00] I just like my uh for something like that, my brain doesn't really work that way. So I mean i obviously you could make something with the texture of a chocolate mousse, just you know, treat it like a chocolate mousse, lower the liquid base a little bit because you already have the little bit more liquid in the butterscotch, but it should work. So that's egg whites, like you said, gel it and fold it together and set. Can you spread a moose and have it not break? Yeah, yeah, sure.
+
+[35:26] Yeah. But you wouldn't do it. I wouldn't know, not personally. I'm actually trying I'm actually trying to eliminate all of the use of gelatin, period, and any in all of my. Because of the vegetarian thing?
+
+[35:36] No, no, no. Just uh I think it's um it's a crutch that people use too much. Um just not for any real reason other than just to say I I did it. So right. So in other words, like here's another source of inspiration, kind of self-limitation.
+
+[35:50] A lot of really good dishes come out of self-limitation. Whole cuisines are based on self-limitation. And so when you've already achieved a certain level, the question is how do you branch out or get some new stuff, give yourself a limit, and then uh see what happens. Is this is this why you did or just for the hell of it? Um I yeah, I just I just I don't know.
+
+[36:05] I think gelatin's kind of creepy. And um like pig hooves? No, no, I I'm totally into pig hooves. It's just the like it's just the the gel I just think it's used a lot, overly so, and uh um yeah, that's all. Yeah, all right.
+
+[36:20] Uh Nastasha, well, do you remember the recipe for the inside of Getz caramel creams, which are like God's candy? Yeah, no, I don't remember it off the top of my head. That stuff's good. You like a caramel cream? Of course.
+
+[36:30] Absolutely. For those of you that don't live uh in the United States of America, or I think are they West Coast or are they only East Coast? I like I mean they're a Pennsylvania Dutch style of thing. Gets is a Pennsylvania company. It's pronounced it it's written like GERTS, G-O-E- Like T Z.
+
+[36:45] It's pronounced Getz. And uh what it is, it's caramel with the little bullseye of that kind of like whipped fat crap in the middle, which is delicious. Brooks, you're gonna yeah, it's kind of dry. Yeah. And like uh yeah, it's like it's like it's like somewhere between like Oreo filling and something else where it's just like dry, almost like it crumbles in your mouth.
+
+[37:05] Yeah, that would be good with a butterscotch flavor, right? Yeah, sure. I don't know how to make that stuff. I think it's powdered sugar and we tried. Well, you tried.
+
+[37:15] We were trying to make a coconut base one. We wanted like a coconut caramel cream. What we were trying to do something else with it. That is delicious. Carrot cream is delicious candy.
+
+[37:24] I saw someone at Economy Candy, which is like the one of the local big candy shops here in the in in uh New York. By the way, speaking of Oreos, Brooks makes a delicious freaking Oreo. Delicious Oreo. So much better than Nabisco's Oreo. Makes him wish that he had made the Oreo instead.
+
+[37:38] Anyway, uh guy was like, what candy should I take back? Uh, you know, to England, because he was English. He's like, uh you know that's it really says America. I was like, hey, take the caramel creams, they're delicious. Okay.
+
+[37:50] Uh so anyways, maybe we've milked this. Brooks is not gonna Angela Brooks will not tell you how to do it. Uh that's just that's all there is to it. He's not gonna tell you. Sorry.
+
+[37:58] Uh okay. So, oh my god, I had to put a password on my iPad, so when it when it goes down, it because my my kids were invading my iPad. So now it takes me an extra ten seconds to come up. Okay. I had a question in from and I I can't seem to to get to it.
+
+[38:14] Uh okay, Jack, someone's having problems with the Heritage Radio Live feed. We fix that crap. Is it right now? No, no, before. Oh, yeah, that's working.
+
+[38:22] Yeah, all right. Very good. Okay, dear Dave and Co., Josh in Somerset uh UK says, I have to keep buying new cooking probes. The one with the cable uh to a device so that I can put it in the oven, because either the probe and or the device keep breaking. Can you please suggest a reliable make?
+
+[38:37] Something with good reaction speed, good range, up to 200 C? That's 400 Fahrenheit for you, Fahrenheit folk. And if possible, but not essential, a probe that's mildly resistant to water, so cleaning is made easier. No. They all suck.
+
+[38:44] I've broken many of them. I've broken tailors, I've broken polders, I've broken every single one of them I've ever used. They've all crapped out. I've used them to try and do a roast inside of a pot. The steam gets inside of that crimp around the probe on the cable and they break and they die on me.
+
+[39:06] Has anyone in this room had a good experience with one of those Sunsa guns? No. They suck. Yeah. So do you so what do you recommend then?
+
+[39:12] Well, either just keep buying a crap uh ton of them, which is not a good solution, or uh I would suggest getting uh an industrial uh thermocouple. Uh they're they're ruggedized, the the the actual cases are ruggedized. You can get like basically they look like multimeters with like a rubberized outside, and they're pretty much impervious to whatever ails you. And then you get relatively cheap uh thermocouple probes that attach into them. You want to make sure thermocouple probes come in a wide variety of uh cable configurations, right?
+
+[39:42] And also head configurations. So you find um obviously the fatter the thinner they are, the better their response time, but the more fragile they are, and also the uh the more expensive they are typically. Uh you want to avoid for oven use anything that has a complicated head or the micro, like the ones that are used in C V, the hypodermics, because the heads of those things aren't rated for high temperatures and they'll burn out. Like they the epoxies they use to uh put everything together on the inside of those heads, not meant to withstand the oven. That said, you get a good fiberglass cable insulated thermocouple probe, and it's good to 900 Celsius sometimes.
+
+[40:17] So some of these like are uh 900 Fahrenheit or nine Celsius. I can't remember. Probably whatever. Uh but like but you can get cables that'll withstand basically uh kilns. And I've had thermocouple cables in my oven that have been in there for years, and my oven routinely gets up to 850 Fahrenheit.
+
+[40:29] Uh tops out. I've my oven tops out at like 875 at this point Fahrenheit or a little better. And I have embedded thermocouple probes that don't break, and I have uh air temperature probes that don't break, and and I use industrial thermocouple. And the good news is if you find a good source, the McMaster Car is a fast source, but an expensive source. Uh you can get them for uh, you know, like like 15, 20 bucks.
+
+[40:59] Uh, you can get uh waterproof ones, just pay attention to the cable. You can make your own thermocouples, which I do. They're typically not waterproof, but they usually last for the application that you're doing. If you make your own probes by twisting the wires together, it's on the order of a dollar per. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:13] For the because you just buy lengths of the cable and make it as long as you want uh and get the get the connectors. So that that's what I recommend. But I've never had it. The ones that they're using ovens are typically uh RTD, they're resistance, uh, you know, resistance temperature things. They break, they just they just don't they break.
+
+[41:29] They break all the god dang time. They just don't seem to last. Yeah, yeah. All right, very quickly. Uh Tony uh Tony Harrian from the mixing bar in Brazil writes in.
+
+[41:39] Uh this is last week it didn't make it in. Uh last December we started investing a little more in our uh cooking lab. We've been working with a conventional distillation uh of our own booze. I'm glad you can do that. I can't do that here in the US of A, they'll throw me in the jail.
+
+[41:50] Uh or they won't throw me in jail, they'll just take away the liquor license. It's not even my liquor license, it's Sam's liquor license, so then everyone will hate me anyway. Not that they don't already hate me. Uh okay. Uh but now we have a rotovap, uh, sockslit, socks that's an interesting extraction technique, which I don't have time to talk to you about right now.
+
+[42:05] Maybe some other time I like sockside extraction. It's kind of old. People, I think, don't do it in the labs so much anymore. Yeah, we're moving away from that generally. Sometimes for pesticides, but delicious pesticides, I think you mean.
+
+[42:14] The advantage of a soxide extraction is that it allows you to reuse your solvent a bunch of times so you get fresh solvent into the pro thing you're extracting from uh on a consistent basis, so you can get much higher uh extraction rates uh for a given amount of solvent. So you can make really punchy things in socksolids. Theoretically, that's the advantage of the socks. What do you use instead now? Oh, we use something called solid phase microextraction, me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[42:37] Uh okay. We'll stick with soxide in the kitchen. Uh okay. Uh one thing we don't have yet is a vac a chamber vacuum machine. So we adapted glass jars with fast connections to make syrups and speed up infusions.
+
+[42:47] You can see a few pictures on our Facebook page. Uh we tested our jars very well, but warned people about potential dangers. We mostly use it for the barns, but working okay, uh, plus it costs nothing. We use either valves or hot pliers to melt the tubing, which they have like fat they have fat basically those those push to connect fittings that you can get in the plumbing store, the push to connect to get the tubing in, which actually are vacuum rated. I mean, I've read the vacuum ratings on those are all right.
+
+[43:08] Uh they use it with an oil-based vacuum pump and a cold trap chilled by ice or dry ice when we have it. What are my thoughts on this setup? My thoughts on the setup. I use it, I saw their setup, it's basically mason jars, not even they're pickle jars, right? They're very cheap to buy.
+
+[43:21] Be very, very, very cautious uh using this in front of people who aren't wearing safety glasses. Standard uh pickle jar. Uh first of all, the vacuum that's created uh when you're canning in one of those jars is much less than the vacuum uh that you create when you're putting an oil based vacuum pump. The oil based vacuum pumps that I use, which are refrigeration pumps, they're not even that expensive, routinely get down to five millibars or less, absolute pressure. Right?
+
+[43:45] So you're talking basically a full vacuum, 15 PSI. If you are using a uh pickle jar like that, which is molded, there's seams in it, and there's lots of places where there's additional stress involved in it, you could uh be setting yourself up for a violent, uh sudden violent implosion. Uh so what I would recommend is putting a um, and the the problem with an implosion, even though it goes in, is that uh the pieces can pass each other. In other words, just because it's imploding doesn't mean that it's going to hit its counterpart on the other side. So glass goes everywhere, and by everywhere I mean in your eye, in your face, uh, you know, in stuff like this, in your ice well, even worse.
+
+[44:21] Uh, and uh so uh you you're gonna want to wrap electrical tape around it to stop like the pieces from flying too far, and or get a mesh. The old lab trick I was told by old rotoVap heads uh for people before before they purchased uh plastic coated glassware for everything, was to uh wrap um wrap everything in electrical tape basically, uh so that the pieces don't go too far. The other uh thing I would recommend move to uh move to a polycarb uh polycarb uh vessels. They have uh pressure-rated polycarb things like for instance pasta click keepers that will withstand that kind of vacuum level. Uh it doesn't cost that much more, and those when they shatter, polycarb has a much better uh shatter mode than glass does because it it will crack uh but it will not uh splinter into a bunch of pieces.
+
+[45:08] This is why when you're when you're making um potato guns and other sort of high pressure air guns with piping, PVC is actually not a great choice because P the fracture, the fracture um mode of PVC is into splintering kind of things, whereas certain other plastics, I believe like ABS or or polycarb, when they fracture have better kind of a fracture mode. Uh so uh that's just my thoughts. The other question you have was when working with a rotoVap, do you guys tend to puree the products before distillation? Yes. Uh although Tony Kunayaro, our good buddy in uh in the England, does not.
+
+[45:43] Uh I got in the habit of blending stuff into a pulp and sometimes straining it to get a better extraction. It seems like the puree plus straining method gives a smoother distillation towards the end of a run compared to just a puree. Okay. What do you think about pureeing versus puring pieces or chunks or straining out? Thanks very much.
+
+[45:59] Here are my thoughts. Well the reason you probably like the strained puree better is taste the stuff that you've strained out. If the stuff you strained out doesn't have as good of a flavor as the stuff that went through your chinois or whatever you're passing, that's the cause of the difference in the in the in the in in the flavors. I mean like the the the way I always figure how a roto vap, I sniff it and I see what's going to come through. I don't think the the straining itself shouldn't make it any more or less smooth.
+
+[46:23] I would recommend putting things through a very light vacuum cycle before you rotovap to get rid of uh uh a foam over problems. You might be also having problems your straining might be getting rid of some of the air bubbles that came through when you're pureeing by getting rid of those air bubbles when you're pureeing uh you're causing uh l you're getting less violent foam up on the beginning less violent foam up as you start is going to give uh fewer kind of uh uh mic microparticles of crap that are coming over along with your distillate as it's running so there's a study recently on uh amino acids in unaged uh in unaged distillates clearly amino acids should not be in an unaged distillate it's contamination of some sort because you amino acids they they don't uh they don't distill right they're non volatile uh and so uh one of the explanations is microparticles are things carried over in violent distillations uh and so by reducing the violent distillations by uh getting rid of some of the entrained air at the beginning, perhaps you are actually making a smoother distillation. But simpler way for that would just be to vacuum it. So my two things are if you're actually getting a smoother distillation, it's because A, you're getting rid of air, which is going to help you at the beginning of your distillation run. B, you are uh taking out products that don't have as nice an aroma as the other stuff.
+
+[47:37] Yeah? Yeah, anyone? We've got uh an email question for Brooks from a Paul. All right, you want to read it for me, Jack? I will, yeah.
+
+[47:45] Says I've seen statements Brooks has made on the creation of vegan desserts for guests. Can he comment on these desserts and keep the hammer from making her vegan face? Are these items on the menu, or would one need to call ahead to let the kitchen know that vegans are coming? Who sent that question by the way? That is a Paul.
+
+[48:03] Paul. Paul. Um No, we have a uh we have a seven course vegan tasting menu that's uh always there every day. On the menu though? It's um if someone asks, we have it.
+
+[48:17] You bring the menu with tongs? Uh no, we have it. It's just our it's just our way of uh being uh like proactive. Like we if someone comes in and they have that particular dietary restriction, then we absolutely have them covered. So when you're working it's a hospitality thing.
+
+[48:36] When you're working on something like that, do you kind of have to make it like a catch-all, like also hypoallergenic and all that other stuff or no? Um yeah, well actually uh I think we make it so it is it can be like gluten-free too, because often those two go together. But it can it's it's we have we have the capabilities to do any sort of like um almost any like dietary thing just because I said, it's a hospitality thing. If somebody comes in um you know to uh to our restaurant, like it's our job to make sure that they leave completely psyched. So that's great.
+
+[49:11] That's great. And uh di tell me a little bit about making it. Like, do you like working on that problem? It seems like it's an interesting problem. Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's fun because uh it's one of those that's like giving yourself limitation things because especially with dessert, so much of it is based on eggs and cream and butter and you know, stuff like that.
+
+[49:33] So to make stuff like that, but then have it still taste good and still be something that could be served at a you know at a four-star restaurant. That's uh that's a big challenge and it's a really fun thing too. So hey Nastasha, let's go to Del Posto and get the the the vegan. Yeah, let's do it. You want to do it?
+
+[49:50] Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it soon. Yeah, I'm gonna do that. Alright, so listen. I don't know if I'm gonna get to do it before next week, but Nastash and I are gonna go to uh the Del Posto restaurant.
+
+[49:59] Uh, you know, one of our favorite Italian joints. And uh we're gonna get the seven course such a jerk. Uh uh, we're gonna get the uh seven course uh vegan tasting menu. Uh super thanks to Brooks and uh Ariel for coming in. And I want I want here's what I want you guys to think about over the over the next week.
+
+[50:18] Uh because I want to talk about it next week. I don't really know what I think. There's a cohort study out. Cohort means they just choose a bunch of random people, not random, they're like a group, and then they have questionnaires and they data mine it. I hate most data mining studies in general.
+
+[50:29] Ariel. Oh, yeah. They suck, right? Data snooping, it's like not. So there was a huge uh one that came out recently called Red Meat Consumption and Mortality.
+
+[50:38] Came out in March on March 16th. It's one of the it's a big data mining uh studies basically saying that if you eat meat, you're more likely to die. Which we all die. But in other words, they mean faster. Uh so uh I haven't had time to go over the data set, but I'd like uh all of you uh actual science folk uh in our listening audience to uh think about this study, the pros, cons, whether you guys believe it or whether you think it's a load of horse hockey and just bad bad data or good data.
+
+[51:04] Anyway, I'm gonna leave you with that. Thanks again for Brooks. Thanks for real cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[51:25] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:00] Hey, what's up? This is John Norris, and you're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from actually we're starting on time today, 12. Yeah.
+
+[0:22] Yeah. To about 1245. Actually, next week might be a problem. Go into Germany next week. Last time I was in Germany, we did cooking issues live from uh a street corner in Germany.
+
+[0:32] You wanna you want to see whether we can do uh the live German cooking issues again? Yeah, more off the wall than a street corner. Well, I mean like look, honestly, if I'm gonna do it, I probably have to do it in the hotel with Skype. Otherwise, I mean like we were just lucky that my phone didn't get cut out or I didn't get beat over the head by some sort of angry uh you know ex East German. Uh last time I did it, but uh we love the the angry ex East Germans, by the way, so no offense.
+
+[0:57] Calling all of your cooking questions to 7184972128, that's 718497 2128. So Stas, uh last week on the show we had uh our friend Ariel from UC Davis and Brooks Headley, the the the pastry chef that more people need to know about from Del Posto restaurant. Uh he got a call or a question in uh asking about the seven course vegan tasting menu that they do at Del Posto. Mistaha made her vegan face, which by the way, uh now I I I can relate to you all. She would not let me take a picture of it.
+
+[1:27] Literally, like I I pulled up the camera maybe eight, ten times. I caught her once as she was exiting the vegan face, but uh I couldn't get the full vegan face on camera because she refused to let me uh get it. But if you've ever seen uh uh either the Sopranos or uh Steven Van Zant on his new show uh Lewis Hammer, his angry his angry gangster face scowl, like the the kind of bulldog frown, that's pretty much that's pretty much the vegan face right there. So you can just pretty popular, I see even on iTunes, one of the reviews was referencing the vegan face. Really?
+
+[1:59] It's blowing up. Really? And I suspect maybe Nastasia can't even make the real vegan face anymore. No, I can. Well you can see anything.
+
+[2:11] It's when she doesn't mean to do it. That's when she did it. So like you could see her true reaction to the vegan lunch. It's like I don't need to actually ask her. I just look over and see, you know, is is Steven Van Zandt sitting next to me?
+
+[2:21] Or is Nastasha sitting next to me? And you know, that's basically how uh how you do it. So uh by the way, I'm I'm gonna get probably in big I'm about to get in big trouble with uh our good friends over at Del Posto, Mark Ladner and Brooks, because here's what they said. They actually enjoy making the V. They said, first of all, don't publicize the uh the the vegan thing.
+
+[2:41] Thank God our cadre of listeners is loyal, but you know, we're not there, you know. Well, whatever. We don't have enough visitors to blow up blow up Del Posto, right? Right or wrong. So I'm not gonna get in trouble.
+
+[2:53] Well well, we'll see, you'll find out. So here's what they said. Um any good cook likes a uh likes a challenge and likes a set of constraints uh in in which they can work and try to get new ideas to try and push their skills, push their talents, right? And this this could be anything, like so when we did the uh museum uh event last year, uh also at Del Posto, uh, you know, we pushed the bartenders and the cooks into areas they wouldn't normally uh work by giving them a set of constraints. You're gonna work with you know, this set of ingredients or this time, you know, this time, or like you know, Nils, we gave fad diets, etc., etc.
+
+[3:32] And and uh without exception, every single cook and bartender who worked at that event took uh the challenge in the exact way that we wanted to and use it as an opportunity to do something uh creative and interesting. Wiley, in fact, put the dish that he did there, the bone marrow. He put that on his New Year's menus. Uh Brooks did his uh artichoke thing, I think, for a while. So uh it it it's uh it's a great thing for any cook to do, uh maybe not all the time, but you know, uh on occasion to take a challenge, uh take a set of constraints.
+
+[4:00] And cooking something vegan is just at a set of constraints. And so the guys at Del Posto uh really liked uh they really they really like cooking this kind of thing, and it actually is on the menu all the time. They have a customer they said who comes in quite often, and whenever that customer comes in, they revamp the vegan menu for them so it's not the same every time it comes in. This time, unfortunately, also macrobiotic, which listen uh you know I find it very difficult to not offend uh offend people, but uh not eating nightshades is crazy. No tomatoes, you're gonna go vegan.
+
+[4:31] Now you're all of a sudden you're not gonna have tomatoes, potatoes, or eggplants. I mean, please. You can do without the eggplant, you said. Well, you said, and I agreed. You said and I agreed.
+
+[4:41] I said, Do you like Baba Ganoush? And you said no. I said, Do you like do you like anything with that kind of no? She said no. Doesn't like bacon barda.
+
+[4:48] Uh she likes eggplant parmesan, but mostly for the fry, the mozzarella, and the uh anyway. Uh one thing I'll have to say is that is that they should have shifted into liquor earlier. Oh, yes. I I emailed uh what's his name and told him that. What's his name?
+
+[5:01] It's a nice shout out. Jeff Porter. There you go. See? See how much nicer it's it is to use somebody's name instead of I was like Mark.
+
+[5:11] Okay. So anyway, I'm here to report. Uh oh, uh so they said don't popularize it because even though they like cooking it, uh, and this is a challenge to uh vegans uh out there, or anyone with uh like that there's wine glasses right here in a stash. Oh, hello. Uh they to to with dietary things out there.
+
+[5:29] You have a uh reputation among chefs as being difficult human beings with which to work. And uh so the the their issue isn't that they don't like cooking the menu, their issue is that in general, to gener to generalize, the customers who order it can be problematic because they tend to not be people that are interested in food primarily. They're just there to get some you know, to to have a meal, and they have these restrictions in which they're working, but the food isn't the primary focus, and cooks prefer to cook for people who like food. Fair? Right.
+
+[6:03] And that's why they told us not to publicize it. Am I saying that without getting anyone in too much trouble? Yeah, you didn't use the exact language of what they called those people. Now now they're those people. What the vegan, so you say it then.
+
+[6:16] No, no, no. I'm not gonna say what they say. They did not insult vegan people. Anyways, my point is it was very good. Unfortunately, it was also macrobiotic, which to me, I mean, someone please call and tell me why macrobiotic stuff is not a bunch of hoo-ha.
+
+[6:28] Anyone, anyone call in. I know there's a lot of people out there who love microbiota. I had two shots of green of green stuff. I do not drink actually, we make a very good drink green drink at the bar. Yeah.
+
+[6:39] Not macrobiotic because you can't have distilled distilled liquor. Uh but uh yeah, those kind of like wheat grassy, like you know, uh one one of the drinks, no offense to Jeff there, because I think he was they bought it and they did it on purpose just to shaft me. Tasted like I had latched my mouth onto the uh exit chute of a lawnmower and was riding around the grass uh, you know, with a lawnmower attached to my mouth. But the meal itself uh was very, very good. What do you think?
+
+[7:05] It was good for what it was. So, what the hell is that? I would not go there and get it. Like people who want that get what they want. Get get a great meal, right?
+
+[7:15] Well, I thought I mean I thought it was a really good meal. Nastasha, first of all, is prejudice in this sense. When she goes to an Italian restaurant, if she doesn't leave with her gut busting open, she's like, it's not Italian. Italian food's supposed to be haughty, it's supposed to be a hearty food. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:30] And my point is that's not necessarily the case. It's it's sad. But so my point is that you you have a preconceived notion of what Italian should be and of what Del Posto should be. So you can't divorce yourself from that notion and just look at the food at which as it was presented. Sure.
+
+[7:50] What about you know, uh I thought that the flavors were very, very well balanced. There was nothing that I thought was lacking. There's a a lot of use of uh Hayumami um and like pro protein based things that weren't meat, like uh nutritional yeast, which was quite good. Um obviously a lot of mushrooms uh brought into it, a lot of uh very, you know, uh reduced root vegetables, things like that, things to and I thought everything was was delicious, I thought the textures were good, I thought it was well balanced. The one thing I don't didn't like were the uh raw snap peas on it because even though everyone everyone finds them delicious, except for me because of the raw, the raw starch taste, I do not like uh pea shoots either.
+
+[8:29] And I might be the only person on earth who does not like pea shoots. And uh because I don't like that raw, I don't like that raw taste. Well, part of the problem with me doing that raw diet last year. Yeah, I don't like it. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:41] Uh uh anyways, so I thought they did an amazing job. I liked it. Oh, yeah, we had an orange wine that was, I guess, uh, you know, which we'll we'll research more. I didn't research it uh a lot. And uh Nastash at that point was was dying for a drink.
+
+[8:55] Speaking of that speak speaking of dying for a drink, we have uh a wine here. You're gonna have to ask uh translate this. What's uh land of what's uh Chietti? Don't know. Thought you spoke Italian.
+
+[9:06] Now you forgot Italian too. I don't know, we can look it up. Oh my god. Anyway, it's called Passetti and it's pecorino. Now, pecorino, for all of you out there, obviously means goat.
+
+[9:16] So is this wine, Jack? Is this wine literally passed through a goat before it's put in a bottle? I can't confirm or deny that. Yeah? You can't, but I'm excited to try this.
+
+[9:26] It's from the barter house, though. Remember those guys? Uh I was about to say, these are from our good friends at the barter house. And uh I said this before. It's a province in Italy.
+
+[9:34] Really? There you go. Land of that province. Yeah, Chietti is a province. For uh for people who've been listening to the show forever, they're the same people who brought you booze.
+
+[9:42] Boozer! Yeah, so they're also bringing you wine passed through a goat. This is a uh a white wine. What's the what's the grape? Is there a grape called goat?
+
+[9:50] What the heck is this? And looking at it. So here's the deal. So the Barter House, for those of you that uh they haven't sponsored our show in a while, mainly because uh Modernist Pantry has been sponsoring our show for a long time. But we like the folks at the Barter House, and what they are is uh uh kind of a a s like a a specialty importer that imports wines, kind of unusual and interesting wine.
+
+[10:08] So they're not gonna carry a lot of the wines that you know that we're familiar with. Uh but uh one of the uh one of the good ways to see whether or not you should try a new wine in the store, and it's not just a barter house, find uh uh uh you know an importer, someone who brings in wines uh that uh you like, and in general, these people choose wines that they like that are interesting. So if you don't know the producer, you don't know the grape, you don't know the style, sometimes looking at the back and seeing who's bringing it in is a good indication of whether or not it'd be something interesting to try. And it's uh uh I think it's something that we don't do enough in wine stores. People don't think about the importers or the houses that choose wines that are the curate you know, the other selections that they're gonna bring over.
+
+[10:44] But I think it's a good way to try a new wine. So we're gonna uh Nastash and I, because it's so hot, we're gonna have this uh white wine that's been passed through a goat. Uh Passetti doesn't actually mean doesn't mean past pa Passato means past, right? So what does Passetti mean? This is their last name.
+
+[10:59] Oh, that's the name of the people? It's a m uh for a husband and wife team, Franco and Mima. Mima Passetti. So they so well hand me my glass so we can try this stuff, and we should get to some actual cooking issues here in a minute. Otherwise, this is gonna be a show just based on uh nonsense and drivel.
+
+[11:14] Let's try it. No offense to nonsense and drivel. Wait, what do you what do you think, Stas? It's really sweet, huh? It's not actually sweet, it's just not like hyper dry and crisp.
+
+[11:25] It's fine. Fine. What do you think, Dave? And what would you pair it with, Stas? I would pair it with uh with actually with peccarino cheese.
+
+[11:33] Uh you're such a low what? Whatever. That that brings me to another thing. Before we get into real stuff, you know, we've been there's been a lot of play recently, uh, on of recently like uh uh it on our show and nowhere else. On um on um the taste pairing hypothesis and this hypothesis where uh you know things that have similar molecules, not necessarily similar.
+
+[11:52] Nastasha apparently believes if you name something after a goat, it should go well with goat cheese. It's it's stuck in my head. But yeah, I think it would go well, don't you? Um I think almost everything goes well with peccarito. I like pepperato.
+
+[12:03] I don't know, like you know, it's one of those things that has enough acidity to it that uh it could go well with uh spicy or like an Asian thing. It's not gonna get totally cut down, it's not the structure of it isn't like a red that's gonna get obliterated. So I could I could see it with that. Asian thing. What the hell is that?
+
+[12:20] What the hell is that under your breath Asian thing? We go back to the biggest thing. Like a spicy thing. I'm thinking about it because we were at uh Pac Pac uh That was a New York Pac Pac Brooklyn. Yeah.
+
+[12:30] So now we become a review show where we're reviewing restaurants that we've been to over the past year. Well we only we only went to two in one day. It's like we don't do anything together. We don't go out to restaurants. Thank God.
+
+[12:40] Thank God. But uh uh my wife and I were at the table next to uh Nastasha Mark Ladner from Del Posto, Brooks, and her friend from Juilliard, Pat Patrick Posey. Uh and uh so uh this was this is Andy Rickers uh not Rick Tur, the comedian, Andy Ricker, the uh famous uh Portland, formerly Portland, now Portland and New York based uh chef who uh does Thai kind of uh in a different way than I've ever had it in New York and because I've never been to Thailand, so I can't call it authentic, but extremely delicious, extremely great uh food. And I I'd only ever had uh Pacpock Wing, which is his takeout joint in uh the Lower East Side, and his food at events. So it's the first time I got to go to a basically a full-scale restaurant uh of his, and I was uh frankly blown away.
+
+[13:29] I thought it was great. And um what do you think, Stas? Yeah, it was amazing. I hate Thai food. Well, okay, when Nastasha says she hates Thai food.
+
+[13:36] Those of you that have ever listened to this show knows that uh they know that Nastasha's crazy, basically. Uh here's what she doesn't like about here's what she says she doesn't like Thai food, here's what she means. I don't like lemongrass and I don't like coconut milk, right? And peanuts. I don't know, so what?
+
+[13:51] So there wasn't a lot of that in this food at all. Right. Anyway, but uh that's not my point. My point is is that Nastasha's crazy. And that this restaurant was great.
+
+[13:59] For instance, the thing that uh like uh the thing that blew me away is that he served an extremely spicy uh beef dish, I forget the name of it. Uh, you know, kind of ground uh meat, and next to it was just a plate of herbs, hoebs, uh, that were, and these herbs, they look like you know, a plate of herbs. And I uh I was starting to taste them, and they were unlike any herbs you'd ever tasted. Like when he came over, I I basically I had the waiter call him over because and Mark 2 was like uh you look. If you're in the business that I'm in or the market, you're not no one's supposed to be able to in New York City hand you a plate of herbs and have the first four things you taste off of be unlike anything that you've ever had and completely foreign to you, such that you have no idea what the hell's going on.
+
+[14:41] That just doesn't happen. Do you know what I mean? Like one or two new ingredients, whatever, uh or new ingredient, but something that's just totally foreign to you like that is crazy, right? Didn't you agree with that, Sas? And uh, like this one had the kind of tartness of a sorrel, but like a completely different taste.
+
+[14:56] I want to use that in a drink. He get like Andy gets it some guy in Florida, some basically I guess who smuggled seeds from Thailand to Florida and is growing these uh kind of insane Thai herbs in Florida and then shipping them up uh to uh Andy, and he he guess he gets them on consignment from this guy. I'm gonna try to get some for the bar for Booker and Dax. Uh but it's just uh just cra crazy stuff, good stuff. I recommend going.
+
+[15:20] Uh okay, enough with the restaurant reviews else, right? Oh, one more piece of news from Booker and Dax Land, and then I guess we should go to uh yeah, Booker and Dax. Well, it won't be ready for about a month, but we now have Booker and Dax, the company, not the bar, has its own space in the lower east side. So look out for us coming in uh doing some cool stuff in the lower side, correct? Yeah.
+
+[15:40] Yeah, yeah. It's a small space. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It's a storefront, which is awesome.
+
+[15:44] It's our own space. So those are you you can stop by, like wave vegetables and at Nastasha in the window, and she can make her face for you in about a month. And with that, call your questions to 718-497 2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. And welcome back to Cognities.
+
+[16:53] By the way, today's show is gonna be brought to you by the Barter House. Yeah. Jack just told me. Oh, I didn't wouldn't pay attention. The Stoch's like, I don't know, I was playing Tetris.
+
+[17:02] Anyway, uh before I go on to some real issues, I want to talk about um the this uh book, Taste buds and molecules, about the flavor pairing hypothesis. So I've been basically saying for a while that I think that this flavor pairing hypothesis is bunk, whereby you know you take uh, you know foods that share specific flavor compounds, and therefore you can decide that they actually go well together. And it's uh it's a you know it's a technique that's gotten a lot of play recently, and so I kind of thought I'd go buy, and I you know, I I bought it. Uh a book called uh Taste buds and molecules, written by Francois uh Chatier, and I think it's how he pronounces his name. I don't know.
+
+[17:38] He's Cabacla. Uh, but he's done a lot of work in France, and uh he is like a true master sommelier. Like nobody argues the man knows his wine. And uh sometime in the early to mid uh 2000s, he um started working on this working on the idea of uh flavor pairing, looking up what components were in a wine, the aromatics of wine. And a lot of that stuff is readily actually available because a lot of studies have been done uh on it due to wine quality issues, and so a lot of uh food studies have been done on it.
+
+[18:09] Uh and also uh what uh when those same molecules appear in foods and has built a structure of uh tastings and and basically food pairings based on uh what you know what he calls his his res his research into those into those things. And the result uh is this book, Taste buds and molecules, which also has like a lot of crazy kind of graphical elements. And so uh I bought it thinking that I was going to uh hate it, right? Uh and there are many things about it that uh that I uh disagree with, but I have to say that he uh I mean he clearly uh you know understands and he clearly you know from everything I've read about him, I've never had dinner with him or anything, but has a very good palate, right? So this isn't in other words, it's not something where someone is just saying, hey, look it.
+
+[19:00] Uh here's a bunch of stuff that I saw on a piece of paper, and therefore they're gonna go well together, even though I haven't developed a palate. He's coming at it from the direction that I think is a good one, namely uh he had spent years and years developing his palate, right? His nose, his palate, his senses, and then after those years, uh then used uh these kind of pieces of research as a further tool to uh f to get inspiration in areas he hadn't already looked. Basically to to ha uh something to help the light bulb or the chime in his head say, Yes, these two things would go well together, and to give him kind of the confidence to put two things together that wouldn't ordin ordinarily be put together. And so, uh to that extent, you know, yes, I think it could be used as a as a valid uh valid thing, and I actually ended up liking um like liking like what he was saying more than I thought I would.
+
+[19:55] But uh uh on the flip side, I mean, and I think this is part of kind of like the, you know, because the book was published in French first, that that kind of writing. It's a little more kind of florid and it kind of takes things a lot a lot further than I would like and kind of makes much more sweeping comments about uh, you know, what he's doing and w the the the concepts behind it uh than I would I would like. And so, you know, when I'm working on the cocktail book, I gotta guard against that too, not making these kind of sweeping statements. My problem is when any of these things become sort of dogmatic or almost become a a religion, the way you know what I mean, the way that people kind of treat the uh new concepts. But uh interesting book.
+
+[20:33] Um so there's there's that. It's my last word on on uh on the flavor pairing uh hypothesis uh for today. Now, on to some uh questions we come in. Hello from Osaka, Japan. We're going to Japan soon.
+
+[20:46] Nastasha and I going to Tokyo to work in the park Hyatt. We're gonna be working there for four days, right? Plus a fifth press day. Yeah. And I'm hoping to get the like I want the most butt kicking Japanese stuff.
+
+[20:59] I don't want any stuff that I can get here in the States. I mean, I do. I want to see like how much better all the stuff that they say is better there. I want to get all that when I'm there, but I want some stuff that you cannot get here. I mean, you know what I mean?
+
+[21:12] Mm-hmm. You with me on this? They're taking you, they're taking us to the market. And there's a big fruit market next to it. I'm gonna go bonkers.
+
+[21:21] And they're with their credit card? Yeah, yeah. Oh man, I'm a dangerous person with someone else's credit card. That's as soon as you arrived. We're going straight there.
+
+[21:30] So I better sleep on. I can't sleep on planes. I'll have to drink like eight loads of espresso, just make like an hour trip to the bathroom and then uh and then we'll go off into it, right? Okay. Hello from Osaka, Japan.
+
+[21:41] I have two questions. I'm interested in buying a refractometer to use in the field as well as in the kitchen. Some things I would like to be able to do are measure the salinity of a brine to know when it has reached equilibrium, measure the sugar content of produce in the field to know when to harvest, measure the sugar quantity of produce to determine which provider has the best product. Can one refractometer be used to measure salinity as well as bricks? Do you have any recommendation for refractometers?
+
+[22:02] Are electronic bricks meters better than optical refractometers? Okay. Uh here's the thing. I've used both uh uh electric ones. We have uh one manufactured by the Hannah Corporation, uh, as well as manual ones.
+
+[22:17] The for the field, I mean the thing is you don't want to be caught out in the field with one and have it break. I mean, the the the the optical ones are fairly bulletproof. I mean, Nastasha did break one of mine. She like shattered the uh the I don't know how the heck she did it. She broke it.
+
+[22:32] No one else has ever broken. She broke the little flip down screen that goes on. Uh the handheld ones, the ones that are not um electronic, are uh a lot cheaper. They're like thirty, thirty-two bucks to get the ones on eBay. They work fine.
+
+[22:46] You need light, you know what I mean? And you need to be able to see through the product somewhat to be able to do it uh, you know, to use them properly. Uh those ones, I've never seen one that'll do both salinity and uh bricks. However, well, you know, you can get um just uh a bricks one and which measures sugar content, and uh get one that is for salinity, and they're fairly small and they're fairly cheap. So you can get two of them, right, for much less than the cost of one good electronic one.
+
+[23:18] I really like the electronic one for just speed of use and not having, especially in the bar to worry about light. You do have to with the electronic ones hold your hand sometimes over the measurement uh device so that you don't get errant light problems. If there's too much ambient light, uh you can't uh work with it. The electronic ones are better for just crushing up some juice, even if it has particles and throwing on because they're not as thrown off by that and they're easier to read. You can read something in an electronic one that there's a really cute kid looking in through our window, by the way.
+
+[23:47] She's pressing her nose against it and we're waving to the window. Uh there's a uh she's wearing some sort of purple flowery thing. Yeah, very cute. Anyway, uh the uh so the electronic ones are better at measuring things that you couldn't necessarily because in a handheld one, you have to be able to flap the glass down. Uh the the the plastic piece that goes over the reading prism.
+
+[24:06] You have to be able to flap it down and get good contact before you can get a good reading. And you don't need to do that with the uh with the with the handheld uh electronic ones. Uh I do think that the handle electronic ones might break a little easier. The Hannah ones that I have are only calibrated for bricks, right? You could, you could and mine is what I like about mine is that especially if you're going to be using something for a long time in a lot of different fields, and you might be measuring juice one day uh or sh or fruit one day and syrups the next, is that mine, my electronic one goes from zero bricks to eighty five percent bricks, which is really nice.
+
+[24:40] And there are handheld uh optical ones that have a very wide range, but the problem is is that those wide range ones, it's hard to get a very accurate reading because the scale is the same length no matter what you do. And so then you have the issue of not being able to uh to to discern fine differences in bricks. Now there are also triple scale manual uh refractometers. I've never used one, uh, and those apparently you can get the accuracy you want in in several different scale ranges, but uh they tend to be more expensive. So instead of like $32, you're talking about $100, $150, and you can get a decent uh uh electric one, electronic one on eBay for not eBay on uh Amazon or whatnot for you know around that price.
+
+[25:25] What do we pay? Two sixty two sixty for a zero to eighty-five. Now, there is a company I don't have theirs, unfortunately, called uh I believe Spare is the company, but you can look it up that has um different uh different ranges in the same refractometer, and they will actually program three custom ranges into your refractometer for you so you could get a zero to eighty-five bricks uh refractometer, and at the same time get a salinity meter, and all it's basically doing is changing the calibration within the unit so that you can measure using the same instrument. Another thing you could do is use your bricks refractometer and then carefully make uh uh things of the proper salinity, right? Measure what the bricks is on it, and then you can hit that number every time, even though you're using a brick scale.
+
+[26:12] So you can correct bricks to salinity. Uh and it's hard sometimes to find the published papers for that on the internet, but you can also do that. Um the last thing I would caution about refractometers in general is that you you know you're going to have a uh a lot of people make mistakes on refractometers and they think that you can measure uh bricks and other things in mixed medium. Remember, all that the all that the refractometer is measuring is uh how what the difference in uh refraction is as light is passed through uh a liquid. So what happens is different liquids have different refractive indexes, they bend light a different amount.
+
+[26:47] And refractometer is measuring uh typically how much uh your liquid bends light relative to water. And so um they can only what bricks is measuring is dissolved sugar, but it anything that changes, any solute, anything that's dissolved in it is going to change it. So if you have alcohol, which changes uh the angle of refraction, right? If all you have is alcohol, then you can use a refractometer to measure how much alcohol is in the water. If all you have is alcohol and water.
+
+[27:14] If all you have is sugar in water, then you can measure how much uh the sugar, how much sugar there is in the water using a refractometer. If all you have is salt and water, same. If you have salt and sugar, you cannot, because there's no way to figure out what the what uh each component is doing to the refractive index independently unless you can measure one of the variables. Same thing with ethanol and sugar, which is why you can't use a refractometer to measure uh something like Quantro, uh, because it's got both sugar and alcohol in it. So uh there are uh you know limitations to what uh a refractometer can do for you because it's only measuring one quantity, how much uh uh light is bent as it travels uh through uh your medium.
+
+[27:58] So uh I mean I hope that helps. But if you know, if I could go back, because the spare one's only like an extra fifty dollars, but it wasn't on Amazon, I would get the multi-range uh electronic bricks unit that does zero to eighty-five. They have a wide scale one. I'm I think it's spare, but you know, whatever. Uh SPER, I think.
+
+[28:13] I'm not sure. Uh uh, I would get there one that that does the full range from zero to eighty-five. That's gonna do 99% of any of the sugar work you want. And and they will also do a custom scale. So if you wanted to do I don't know what you're doing for a living, but let's say you're a distiller or something and you also need to measure or a wine fermenter and you also need to measure glycol.
+
+[28:31] You could have a glycol scale in there so that you can make your glycol solutions, which you would use for anti-free when you're using like chilling. If you have a chiller and you need to do glycol, you could put a glycol scale in and a salinity scale. So you could choose any three scales. If it was me, I would have bricks, salinity, and uh ethanol percentage uh for distilled spirits. I would have those three on it, and then you'd have one refractometer and you'd be good forever.
+
+[28:52] But you might want to back it up with uh a manual one. The manual one, most people get a zero to thirty-two bricks if you're doing fruit, uh, and uh much higher fractomer, much higher bricks level if you're doing um anything like sugars or or syrups. Because remember, simple syrup, one-to-one simple syrup is running about 50 bricks, right? So you can't measure it on a standard zero to 32 bricks uh uh refractometer. Bricks is basically just percentage of the solution that is sucrose, right?
+
+[29:19] Uh and if you're doing uh two to one simple syrup, you're up at 66 bricks, and so it you can get uh you know the zero to thirty-two is of limited use in a bar, right? Right, Saz? Yeah, that's why you bought the zero to eighty-five for us. Yes. And we're quite happy with it, yes?
+
+[29:32] Yes. Yeah. Another piece of equipment we have at the bar, we're very happy with now is we bought uh best $65. That's not true. What the fuck?
+
+[29:39] I'm just lying. It's a good $65. Not the best $65 I've ever spent. The best $65 I ever spent was on my wife's wedding ring. Boom!
+
+[29:46] Kidding. Uh he's not lying. Yeah, I'm a cheap bastard. Uh but uh, yeah, no, it's a good sixty-five dollars. Uh, I bought a zero to five milliliter um basically micropipette, and it's just it's super accurate.
+
+[30:02] So we use it to dose all of uh our uh like our our wine finding agents, Kesel Salt, and Kito San. And also uh when we're making small batches of things to correct things for salinity and whatnot, we can add small amounts that we can then reproduce when we scale it up. So I really like the micropipette uh and we stole that idea from our friend Tony Connigliaro, not the famous dead baseball player from uh you you know the story of Tony Cunliaro? Very famous Tony C, they call him because also Americans. Oh in in America, it's Canigliaro, by the way.
+
+[30:32] So Tony, the baseball player was Tony Canigliaro, not Tony Connigliaro, the bartender, right? But he was like one of the like slated to be one of the best baseball players of all time, was in fact very good, played for the uh for the Bosox, and got he crowded the plate all the time and got hit in the head with a beaner and like almost like I think I put him in a comb. He's in the hospital for a long time, never the same. Never the same. By the way, what Nastasha is actually doing, the the work she's doing is looking up pictures of the chauffeur from Downton Abbey on uh I'm look- I looked over to see like what kind of thing she's looking up about the event I'm doing in Germany that we're gonna talk about after the next break.
+
+[31:08] And she's looking up, she's looking up the chauffeur, kind of like the the least sympathetic character on Downton Abbey. Because not the least sympathetic, but I mean no, no, no, it's not what it's it's what the stars look like out of costume. That's true. But you've already seen that. I know, but I was crazy.
+
+[31:24] This is what I deal with people on a daily basis. All right. The second question from Osaka from John is are there antioxidants that are fat soluble as well as temperature stable up to temperatures around 180 degrees Celsius? Failing that, what is the best practice when storing fats to keep them in their best condition? Two applications I'm interested in are we using very expensive tempura oil and keeping schmaltz without oxidizing.
+
+[31:44] Any thoughts? Schmaltz, I love schmaltz. Chicken fat is delicious. I've never been to one of the old school restaurants in New York that has schmaltz on the table, like one of the old closure restaurants. Because you can't have butter on the table.
+
+[31:55] Because you can't serve butter in a steakhouse. You can have schmaltz. I have I freaking love chicken fat. Um so what could you what can you do? Well, uh I I meant to I forgot that this question had been asked when I saw it last night, so I didn't look up the specific things that are added.
+
+[32:09] But typically uh if you buy uh commercial fry oil, they have uh an antioxidant um in them, uh some sort of like vitamin E tocopheral based thing that's fat soluble that prevents oxidation in the oil. Uh and that is very helpful and stable up to frying temperatures. Uh I'll I'll try to look it up during the break, or Nastasha can try to look it up now instead of looking up uh Downton Abbey's before and after pictures. Uh but the um uh and and that's why I say commercial fry oil is uh much, much better than any of the stuff that we buy in the supermarket, uh, because it lasts just a boatload longer and tastes a lot cleaner. They also in commercial fry oils do something that you can't do in a home oil uh, which is they they uh specifically and temporal oil might be like this, they specifically tailor the fatty acid uh um mix in it to have uh only those fatty acids that are fairly temperature stable and oxidation uh resistant.
+
+[33:04] That said, obviously the things that cause oil to break down uh most are if you get a salt in the oil, which is you know sometimes you know unavoidable, uh allowing uh burnt particles to stay in the bottom of the oil while you're cooking, if you don't have a commercial fryer with a cold zone at the bottom, which tempura doesn't work that way, by the way, which is crazy. Uh but whatever. Uh or um if you um so those are those are the main things. You also like it's best to use, and this again goes against the way I've seen most tempura done, but you really want uh a very low surface area to uh volume ratio on uh on your um on the oil because then you have less uh air contact. You want uh as little foaming as possible, so not a lot of like uh a lot of high water stuff dripping in.
+
+[33:48] Anything that basically is gonna promote a large large amount of oxygen getting into the oil. Also, clearly you don't want any uh reactive metals like iron touching um the stuff because that's gonna that's gonna mess with you. Uh and you want to, as soon as it cools down enough, filter it. And you could you could uh you know, vacuum, you guys you could vacuum pack it or like put it in bottles and then like suck the air out of it to prevent any any sort of oxidation from taking place. Uh but those are the kinds of things uh that I would do.
+
+[34:19] Uh the the worst thing though, I see breakdown on oil, especially when it's done in a home fryer is temperature cycling. And there's just very little you can do to prevent temperature cycling, except for you know the commercial fryers are really what's going to stop you from doing a lot of temperature cycling. Other than that, you could get an induction unit that keeps the oil at a relatively even temperature that has like basically a temperature controller in it that's you know keeping the oil tolerances fairly tight, and then not overloading the oil so that you don't have to get the um you don't have to have as much of a temperature drop, so you don't need as high of a thermal input to do the instant recovery, and that's gonna cause you to have less thermal cycling on your oil, and that's gonna increase the uh the lifetime uh significantly. In a home frying situation, it's crap floating to the bottom, burning and destroying the oil, salt, but most importantly, temperature cycling that is really killing your oil at a ferocious rate. Uh and those are the things I would do.
+
+[35:11] I don't know about are you looking up the uh the vitamin E, the tocofurol based stuff? Or are we still on down adding? No, no, I was doing the Germany stuff. Alright, well, okay. So why don't we do this?
+
+[35:20] We'll take a commercial break and we'll see whether Nastasha can find that stuff on the internet's cooking issues. Am I back? Yeah. Alright. So uh it turns out that uh I wasn't able to look it up over the commercial break, but we'll try to find some specific thing that you can go buy in a store to drop into your oil to add as uh an antioxidant.
+
+[36:41] So Nastasha, what's this event that I'm doing in uh in El Germany next week? It's called Academia Del Ron, and it's uh the Havana Club event. And you will be there from you arrive Monday morning and you leave Thursday. Well, I don't I don't know that people need to know my schedule. What am I talking about there?
+
+[36:59] We're talking about yeast in alcohol. Yeah. So here here's the deal. So they asked me to do uh they asked me to do this uh event on uh rum and I said fine, but they they like I you know I feel like I spend a lot of time trying to become like well versed in in several things, but the effect of yeast on rum, like I can think of at least five other people that I know personally who know more about this than I do, right? Yeah.
+
+[37:27] But yet that's what they wanted me to talk about. See, people make the mistake of uh and I'm not saying anything against it, but people make the mistake of thinking that I'm a scientist. I'm not. I'm like a gearhead cook that can read science papers, right? So like I don't feel like I'm the guy to sit there and talk to you about uh like any sort of actual research that I've done or anything because it's just not the case.
+
+[37:48] So over the past week and a half I read, I don't know, several hundred pages on the effects of yeast on different uh uh uh different you know on fermentation products, and I've learned a boatload about it, but I still am not an expert in the field on this. So what we what I had to do was I just basically took a bunch of molasses. I couldn't get the molasses I like, which is Crosby's molasses, which is a They never got back to me. Those bastards that email that you were like they never got back? Crosby's molasses, for any of you who have ever been in the uh in the in Northeast New England or Maine, Crosby's molasses is the one molasses that I've had that you're like, my god is that delicious molasses.
+
+[38:25] Like I would pour that. You know how like you ever listen to Louie Jordan? You ever listen to Louis Jordan? Mm-hmm. Louis Jordan, you know the song Is You Is Is You Ain't My Baby or Caldonia or Beware any of those?
+
+[38:33] That's Louie Jordan. Like big in the forties, you know, kind of uh kind of cocktail, kind of like, you know, like, you know, whatever. Like uh anyway, like uh uh musician. Uh you know, musician, anyway. Beans and cornbread, you know that song?
+
+[38:44] Beans and cornbread, you know that? Anyway, Louis Jordan. So uh Louie Jordan, what the hell was I talking about Louis Jordan for? What were we talking about? Fermentation.
+
+[38:55] Yeah, but how the hell do I get on Louis Jordan? Molasses. Molasses. So he's like uh in the beans and cornbread song, it goes goes together like hotcakes and molasses, and you're like hotcakes and molasses. Who the hell would put molasses on pancakes?
+
+[39:07] And then you and then once you've had Crosby's molasses, you realize why. But those dumb bastards from Crosby's, they're up in Canada. And by the way, I love you Canadians, but you're a lazy group of people, just kidding. Kidding! He's not.
+
+[39:21] Just kidding. Anyway, uh, but they won't distribute outside of uh New England. We had to mail her, so I couldn't. So we wrote them a nice well, you wrote them a nice email from me in response to how great their molasses are. Yeah, sell it down here.
+
+[39:33] No response back. Crosby's molasses is so delicious. Like when you next time you're in Maine or wherever, over there, up up there in New England Way, get some Crosby's molasses and tell me you don't think that's the most delicious molasses that you've ever had. I mean, I don't know, maybe in the Caribbean, they maybe they have some delicious molasses. I don't know.
+
+[39:50] But as far as in the continental US, it's the most delicious molasses I've ever had. Anyway, so we didn't use that. We used some sort of like molasses, and we're distilling our own I distill I fermented using two separate yeasts. Now, when you're when you're actually doing rum and you're using wild yeast fermentation, there's it's not just uh saccharomyces uh cervace, which is the normal beer, you know, brewer's yeast, of which there's a bazillion strains, each of which have different uh produce different flavors. Uh but there's like uh uh I forget the names of them, like schiz schizo, you know, schizosacros sacramises cervesi.
+
+[40:21] There's like uh there's uh there's a whole bunch of different yeast strains, like five or six uh not strains, uh you know, actual genus species, uh, and then a zillion strains all of which produce different flavors it turns out most of the flavoral difference in a fermentation a lot of the fur a flavoral difference is due to um the yeast right so think about it this way Nastasha if you've ever had have you ever had wine grapes yeah like to eat yeah yeah yeah wine grapes don't taste like wine right it's very difficult to like if you taste like uh pinot noir grapes you're not like oh I get it you know what I mean that all of the like the the most of the flavors that are in there in Pinot Noir are there as precursors right that that you can't taste then the fermentation and the different yeasts that are used bring out the real character so a lot of the flavor is due to the due to the uh the yeast it's just I don't happen to be an expert in that but that's what I'm gonna be talking about in the I think people ask you to talk about these things because you're able to understand it and explain it in an interesting and exciting way. Well that's very charitable. So the that's your special thing for the week. Yeah so uh that's that's that's the one nice thing Nastash is gonna say to me all week so anyway so over the course of the week we're gonna have to uh go out and illegally distill the uh the molasses fermentation we have by the way molass fermented molasses tastes horrible though this black strap molasses stuff tasted horrible tasted like iron I was told by uh our friend Chris who's opening a new beer bar in New York called proletariat proletariat well Nastasha gave the the proletariat face she hates the vegans and the people about your MTV uh your MTV Belvedere drink did you guys talk more about that yesterday? No.
+
+[42:02] Do you tell me about it? The Red Bull that you're gonna make. Oh, Nastasha signed us up to do a jersey jersey shore. For those of you that don't have the don't have like uh haven't been outside. There's a show called Jersey Shore, which I actually haven't seen, but I saw the thing on YouTube where the guy punched the lady out.
+
+[42:18] That's Snooky, right? Yeah. Anyways, I haven't seen the show. Have you seen the show? Small.
+
+[42:22] You have I actually watched an episode. This is serious. Like last week I watched an episode for the first time. It's good. It's a funny show.
+
+[42:30] Yeah? It's a funny show. I'm pro. Well, one of our favorite lawyers is from the Jersey Shore. Yes.
+
+[42:34] Vadim. Good guy. Yeah, good guy. Anyway, um, so um Nastasha signed us up to do an MTV party with uh uh Evan Freeman. Uh and uh it's gonna be a Jersey Shore party, and so Nastasha wants us to do a high-end vodka Red Bull.
+
+[42:49] Yeah. Yeah. So we're working on it, but I don't know what Red Bull, I don't I don't really know much about Red Bull. No, we need a look, we need a we need to look it up. Yeah.
+
+[42:58] Yeah, yeah, we'll we'll take that stuff up. Anyway. Uh oh, by the way, uh we got some shout out from uh John who asked the two questions on Osaka says, uh loves the show, thank you. With so much, and this is uh in general about the world. Here we go.
+
+[43:09] Uh with so much knowledge, this is John talking. With so much knowledge being spread around, I don't think there's uh ever been a more exciting time to be a cook. In Japan, it was commonly accepted that the price you pay to become a cook is your youth. That's kind of nicely said. Uh in five years, I've been able to learn what would normally take ten, and on top of that, I know the why behind the how, which seems to be a very uncommon thing in Japan.
+
+[43:30] Whoa, boom. I'm gonna have to have some talks about that when we're in Japan, huh? Uh how uh behind the how uh seem to be very uncommon in Japan. So here is a thank you for you guys and everyone else sharing what they know. And it's true.
+
+[43:41] The week would not have what's going on today without the increase in um kind of sharing of information that's been made possible by you know the it's not it's it it is the internet, like obviously it's obviously it's the internet, internet, but um I think it's other things. I think that um and I have had some conversations with some European chefs, uh, especially in America, but also among uh Spanish, just an ex like this extreme desire to share what people know and to be generous with ideas that it it is in the cook community. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do you agree?
+
+[44:16] Yeah. But for instance, uh Tim Raua, the Michelin starred chef in uh in uh the Germany, which is where I'll be next. Hey, he's in Berlin. Maybe I should see him when I'm in Berlin. Anyway, he uh he um he said in Germany the chefs don't like they don't like hang out and give each other ideas.
+
+[44:32] Weird, huh? Too bad. Too bad, too bad. Okay. Hey, Dave, Nastasha, and Jack.
+
+[44:37] Jack, you got the shout-out on this one. Uh this is uh uh you know something know who it's from, Nastash, you gotta look this up. Oh, from Tony Harrion from Mixing Bar in Brazil. Uh I read a post on Alcademics, our good friend uh Camper English, the uh blogger. Uh I read this post on Alcademics about the production of Quantro, because he visited the Quantro distillery that says, uh when they add water to reduce Quantro to proof, the essential oils in the peel, because it's Quantro's orange peel uh distillation along with neutral grain spirit, cause the liquor to loosh to get cloudy, like when you add water to absinthe.
+
+[45:05] They centrifuge the quantum to make it clear again, which I did not know. Uh the same happens, and this is uh now it's it's uh Tony talking. The same happens when we rotovap citrus peels and other spices and dilute it to proof. Other than the centrifuge, what can be done to separate the compounds that fall out of solution when you dilute liquids with high concentrations of essential oils? Can you think of any other way to stabilize or avoid the precipitation or loosh without the centrifuge?
+
+[45:29] Uh and then how good does your centrifuge need to be to achieve loose separation in G's or RPM? Uh lastly, to make liquors in this fashion, do you recommend adding water to reduce the proof and then adding the sugar, or use a weak sugar syrup or both at once, with or without the centrifuge as a step? Love the show, keep up keep up the great work. Cheers, Tony Harry, and from Mixing Bar in Brazil, which when I go to Brazil, we got well, we gotta find someone who will pay to get us to Brazil. And then after we do that, we'll visit them.
+
+[45:55] Yeah? Yeah. Okay. One, by the way, uh, this is anyone who wants to get the cooking issues crew down to uh Brazil, keep this in mind. I don't know what it costs for a plane ticket down there, but uh poly science circulators are twice the cost uh in Brazil as they are here.
+
+[46:12] So, what we can do, if you want a circulator, right? If you can find some company to pay for us, we can buy the circulators here, bring them down uh as personal equipment for the events, and then do a swap down there. Just saying. And you might need help carrying them, so you know I'm here. Yeah, yeah, just saying.
+
+[46:28] Just saying, just an idea for all you people in Brazil. If you're trying to get around the tax problem of getting a circulator into the country, and you know a company that wants to ship a bunch of tech knuckleheads down there to talk to them. About a thousand dollars a person to get down there. Which about the break even. Yeah.
+
+[46:43] You break even. You're fast. Yes. Well, uh, with that, when it comes to getting a Nastasha trip to Brazil, blinding speeding. Blinding!
+
+[46:50] Ask her about tocoferol. What? What's that? Crickets are in the background. Jesus.
+
+[46:55] All right. Uh here's my feeling, Tony. Um, I have this happen a lot. Uh, with uh, I mean, we do it we do a uh distillate because Thai basil is like my one of my favorite beverage uh flavors. So we do one that's Thai basil, orange, cucumber, and uh and a little bit of cilantro, and that thing looses out and goes white like very quickly.
+
+[47:15] I think it's uh not so much the orange peel now, because we don't add a lot. I think it's uh probably the uh anethal, which is the same thing that's causing loosing and a pastise because there's a good bit of that in Thai basil, you know, that licorice flavor. Uh by the way, in that ta taste buds and molecules book, like one of the interesting things is that there's a uh I think it's Estragol is a compound that that shared that's in fennel. Uh actually one of those compounds is in apple to a certain amount. Maybe it's this is the thing that the book actually gave me some interesting concepts.
+
+[47:44] Harold McGee and I, years ago when we went to uh Geneva, he Harold McGee's gonna be in town later this week. Harold McGee. Uh we're gonna eat Surstrawing with Nils, gotta set that up. Um on my wife's birthday, though. It might be problematic.
+
+[47:55] Uh the um so we had some apples that grew on the tree that had a huge fennel note to them, and then the fennel dissipated very quickly, but probably due probably to that volatile molecules. Anyway, so like that book actually brought up some interesting stuff in my head, brought back some taste memories I had, so anyway, kudos to that, whatever. Uh uh I when you dilute them to proof, they're gonna loosh out. Um I've had ones that I I've done that to and then let sit for several months, and they uh they basically they separate over time as well. Uh my feeling is I don't know it uh here's the thing.
+
+[48:30] Whenever I've tasted these uh these these things straight out of the centrifuge, I mean sorry, straight out of the roto vap. I love the flavor of them fresh so much that I wouldn't wanna kind of I wouldn't want to change them, and I don't mind the I don't mind the the looshing, I don't mind the pastise effect. I kinda like it. It's kind of a signature of that you made this product and that it has so much like of these essential oils in it that they can't be held in solution when the proof goes um up. Instead of diluting to proof, I would I almost always keep my, unless I'm gonna serve it straight, like an Aka Vit, uh I almost always, and that I I've had Akavitz that go go white on me because we get so much uh so much essential oil in them from the rotovap.
+
+[49:15] I almost always keep them at rotovat proof, which for us is between um a buck and a buck twenty, so about sixty percent. And we keep it there uh until we're about to use it and then let it loosh out, and uh it it's more stable on the flavor. If you don't want to do that, I don't know how I don't think it would take that many G's, but I think it would take quite a long time because the particles when you're loosing are very, very small. Uh and so you have to wait for them to kind of coalesce aggregate and become larger before you can get them to settle out. So I think probably centrifuging and time um are needed.
+
+[49:50] Another hard part about throwing in the centrifuge is that you remember these are these are oils and they float to the top. And so you um that's my guess, it would float to the top. Uh and so when you spin them, you be in this position of siphoning them off the top or getting the stuff out of the bottom, which may or may not be a difficulty because they're not going to go solid if you freeze it the same way that I can do with nut oils or coconut oil. Uh so anyway, so uh those are those are my those are my thoughts uh on that. Okay.
+
+[50:20] Uh last question in, because apparently we have to wrap it up because you know, Jack's got other things to do. Other shows. Other shows. Okay. Uh five.
+
+[50:29] Five fifth questions, apparently today. Although, why do you number them? Because I don't ever do them in order anyway. Like, why put numbers on them? What do you want instead?
+
+[50:35] I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, this does people don't care. I don't know why I asked. Okay, Andrew writes in and says, uh, what is your I have actually two things.
+
+[50:43] Uh what is your recipe for pressure cooked mustard caviar? I cannot seem to find one online by you yourself. Thanks, Andrew. Here's my recipe. Uh pressure cooked um mustard seeds are awesome.
+
+[50:53] They pop like caviar, they're delicious. Even Nastasha likes them, and she hates everything I cook. Uh it's not true. You don't know, I'm just messing with her because I can. Okay.
+
+[50:59] First thing with the mustard seed, I use the yellow mustard seeds. I blanch them uh quickly in a couple of uh like two two times or three times in boiling water for a couple seconds apiece to get rid, it does get rid of some of the pungency, so much so that um you can almost get away with not pressure cooking, but it's not the same thing. We've done the test, right? Um, but it gets rid of some of the dirty, musty taste that I don't really like in a mustard seed. Um we blanch horseradish as well beforehand to get rid of some of that earthy uh taste.
+
+[51:31] Then you pressure cook them afterwards in straight vinegar. I use distilled vinegar. I pressure cook them for between 15 and 20 minutes at second ring in excess vinegar. They're gonna soak up a lot of vinegar, so you don't want to go light on the vinegar. Then you drain them, and while they're hot, you stir in.
+
+[51:50] Uh I use white, you can use whatever you want, but I use white granulated sugar to taste. The sugar will dissolve in with the vinegar that's still on the outside of the mustard seed. Don't want to add the vinegar beforehand, it's going to become a goopy mess. Uh add the vinegar after it's cooked and drinked while it's still warm, hot, but preferably, and uh, and just keep tasting it. Then you pack it in its residual juice.
+
+[52:11] You can see if you save a little bit of vinegar, you can add a little bit in a quart container, and it lasts for a long time. So that's that recipe. And we have one other suggestion in before I leave because I'd be remiss. We had a question last week regarding uh thermocouple probes, and uh our good listener, Elliot Papineau, uh called in a response and said, I use a dual probe alarm meter from WW dot thermoor uh thermoworks.com. Uh and it's a cool dupe dual probe uh thermocouple thermometer.
+
+[52:38] Uh, and they have some cool looking probes. The probes aren't cheap, but the thermometer is, so there you have it. Elliot likes it. Tell us whether you like it too. See you next week, hopefully, from Germany, Cooking Issues.
+
+[52:57] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[53:21] You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Joining the studio as always. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:34] How are you doing, Sas? Fine, how are you? Alright, Nastasha's trying to contact someone to set up one of our eight billion events. How many events do we have this day? Too many.
+
+[0:41] How many do we have today? Only one today. Yeah, but Bobby Flay's gonna be at the bar at six filming. I know, but not we're not, we won't be there. But you should be there, and our starts at six.
+
+[0:53] But no one knows what we're talking about. Nastasha's like, and my f and my brother Phil, he was no, no one knows who we're talking about. Mr. Tam is the contractor at the new Booker in DAX space. I mean, nice to speak on the air.
+
+[1:04] You know, I can't wait 15 minutes to tell me off the air. It's okay. Fifty. Fifteen. We go on break every 15 minutes.
+
+[1:10] No brains. Also joined with Jack, Intrepid Jack. How you doing, brother? I'm good. Good.
+
+[1:16] Calling all your questions live to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Uh missed you guys last week because uh I was in Germany and we couldn't get the scheduling going uh with the you know, because I was actually I think teaching something or doing some sort of judging during the actual radio program. Uh but had a good time in Germany, didn't get to have any really good solid real German German food because I didn't have time to go out to any kind of good restaurants, which is not good. I went out to good restaurants.
+
+[1:44] I didn't go out to like a hardcore German German restaurant. I love German food. Stuz, you like the German food? I love German food. Yeah.
+
+[1:50] Oh, you know why? Why? Right. Because it's hearty. Yes.
+
+[1:53] You you love some hearty, hearty food. Um did uh was interesting. The contest I was judging was for a Havana Club, which uh you know is a rum. There is a Havana Club rum here in the United States, but it's not the actual Havana Club. The actual Havana Club is made in Havana and therefore we can't get it in the United States, which is kind of an irritant.
+
+[2:10] But you know, they gotta straighten that crap out soon how long can we hold a grudge against those guys? Don't know. I mean it's been like it's been like what like uh see 40, 50, like 50 50 years almost 50? 50 freaking years we've been holding a grudge against these guys. I mean I don't really care about the cigars one way or the other but it would be nice to get the rum in.
+
+[2:29] You know you can take planes there apparently now quite much more easily than you did before. You don't you don't need to like pretend it used to be to take a plane from Cuba there was like like two planes a day or something like that and you had to pretend that you were a journalist or some sort of crazy nonsense but apparently now it's okay. Spent a good deal of time when I was in Germany with uh Ryan I'm not gonna pronounce his last name right he's the he's another C last name from London so I can pronounce Connellaro for some reason I can do that. But Ryan's last name from the Worship Street whistling shop used to work with Tony actually Tony C at 69 ready Cheta Cheteya Wardana. Whoa it's hardcore even he says he can't pronounce his name properly and check this out he's doing some interesting stuff like he's uh you might know uh some of the uh bar stuff he's doing because he has like a balloon that he has a uh like a lemon I think essence sprayed on he then like lights a string the balloon flies up in the air and explodes over your head like as he serves you the drink interesting stuff he's uh aging uh aging drinks with uh radioactivity he's like handing them to uh you know people who are I guess doing radiation experiments either for food or for medicine and you know nuking the hell out of stuff to see whether he can accelerate age.
+
+[3:34] Interesting stuff uh I look forward next time in London to uh go to the to the bar. Uh anyways, so what was I talking about? I'm just talking about Ryan. Is that right? Ryan.
+
+[3:43] Oh, anyways, check this out. Dude's from Dude's family. I mean, he's you know, he's British, right? Dude's family from Sri Lanka hates spice. Wow.
+
+[3:51] Says he is like a complete pariah at family gatherings. Like black pepper is too spicy for him. It's messed up, huh? Yes. Messed up.
+
+[3:58] Anyway, we were talking roto vap because he's got roto vaps coming out of his ears as most people uh tech people in London do. We are we gonna get that new roto vap? We might get a new rotov. That's just who I was emailing. Really?
+
+[4:09] Mm-hmm. Nice. I don't know. Anyway. Let's rotovap in Japan.
+
+[4:12] Oh, we're gonna rotovap stuff in Japan. Nastash and I are going to Japan in uh how long? Like three weeks? Yeah. Anyways, we're gonna roto vap stuff there.
+
+[4:19] Mm-hmm. Oh man, it's gonna be a freaking nightmare. Alright, we'll see how it works. Okay. Uh first in from uh Bjorn in Sweden in Umea, I guess is how you pronounce the name, right?
+
+[4:29] Umeaw, because the A with the little dot over the top is aw. Aww, which means river, I think, in Swedish. Question on wild game. Hi, David. My name is Bjorn and I am a chef in the north of Sweden.
+
+[4:38] I have a problem when I brine wild game, especially reindeer and lagapus, which is what they call grouse, lagapus. Good one. Uh I normally do a solution between four and ten percent with normal salt, sodium chloride, but when I cook the meat in low temp, I get a gray line around the meat. Uh maybe two or three millimeters, depending on the time and the percent of the solution. It seems that the line gets more present on darker meat, especially when you cook low temperature.
+
+[5:00] With normal frying and cooking, it's harder to see. If I use nitrates to get a pink line, uh I get a pink line, and I don't want to do that. I've done some testing using ascorbic acid and citric acid with no result. What can I do? Best regards, bjorn.
+
+[5:13] Okay, now list. This is actually uh uh a big a big problem in general. One of the reasons that we don't recommend uh salting, pre-salting on a lot of low temperature meats, or brining for that matter, is it changes the texture of the meat as it's cooked over a long a long period of time. Uh but um color also can be uh quite quite affected. In fact, the color of meat is due in large part to the state of uh myoglobin, which is one of the proteins uh you know i in the meat uh as it's as it's cooking.
+
+[5:46] So there's three, you know, there's many actually, but there's you know the some of the main kinds of myoglobin that uh we deal with are uh deoxymyoglobin, which is what something looks like inside of a vacuum bag. That's myoglobin with kind of no oxygen bound to it. There's um oxymyoglobin, which is the bright red pink red color you get from what what we associate with kind of fresh meat. And then there's met myoglobin, which is basically a reduced form of it's like you know, it's a different iron oxide that uh it gives it kind of the brown brown color. Now, salting, right, affects several of these things.
+
+[6:20] First of all, the when you cook meat low temperature, when you cook meat in a vacuum bag, first of all, you're cooking with uh you're reducing the oxygen uh component so much that you get uh a lot more deoxymyoglobin uh than you would under normal circumstances, and that takes a long time to denature. It actually denatures slower uh uh under heat than either oxymyoglobin or met myoglobin does. So that's why in low temperature meats, uh also the the slower you heat it, the the less the my any kind of myoglobin denatures. So that's why in low temperature cooking, and especially in high vacuum vacuum bag cooking, you can get kind of very kind of pink results even at higher temperatures because you're not gonna and also when you cut the meat, it's gonna cherry up and get this balloon because you're not gonna get uh denature as much of the myoglobin as you would otherwise. Now, salting does two things.
+
+[7:09] It increases the rate of uh met myoglobin, which is brown kind of production, right? And it also uh increases the rate at which myoglobin is denatured and takes on a cooked look. So and it like by a lot, by more than double. Uh and it and that effect is more pronounced at lower temperature cooking than it is at higher temperature cooking. So the study to look at here uh is um it's fine, is the effect of muscle type salt and pH on cooked meat hemoprotein formation in lamb and beef, which came out in 1999.
+
+[7:43] Uh and so it's just it's right there, you can read it, it's the adding salt rapidly increases the rate at which myoglobin is going to get denatured. That effect is going to be magnified at low temperatures, and so having the salt in there is going to give you more of a cooked color and give you a line, a color line in that meat that there's really kind of no way around. Uh but one of the good news is is that you might not need to brine your meat as much or at all, really, uh if you're doing low temperature cooking, because you don't need to protect the meat against overcooking. Now, you if you're doing it for flavor, that's one thing, but you know, you know, not gonna not gonna affect it. Another problem is let's say you were gonna marinate for flavor, use a brine like an acid, the lower the pH, also uh the uh faster the the uh hemoglobin is going to um faster the hemoglobin the uh sorry the myoglobin is going to denature.
+
+[8:34] So you can't win by putting an acid in, you can't uh win necessarily by putting uh an antioxidant in like you did. It's just one of the things. If there's salt there and you're low temperature cooking, you're probably gonna see a line to the extent that salt is soaked into the meat. Um so that's that's all there is to it. Uh, they did in that study, which you should look at, they also tested to see whether adding fat changed the rate, maybe to help you out.
+
+[8:57] It did not. They also added uh polyphosphates, soy proteins, uh casein, and none of these things had any effect on the rate of myoglobin uh denatriation, which is I believe what's causing the uh the problem. Uh so that's uh that's that what do you think? Good awesome also salt can increase the rate of lipid oxidation not can will increase the rate of lipid oxidation in meats. Anywho, caller you're on the air.
+
+[9:19] Hey Dave Nastasha and the rest. How are you guys doing? Doing all right what's up? Hey um before I ask my question I want to say I uh thanks for the nick stabilization uh thing on your blog I made uh corned beef tacos for St. Patrick's Day with uh rye tortillas it was awesome.
+
+[9:37] Oh I love the rye tortillas with corn beef that's sweet. That's a great idea. They were good. They were awesome. What I uh grinding it of course is the problem.
+
+[9:46] I tried you know a mortar and pastel and it didn't work. What I ended up doing was uh just putting all the rye berries in a blender with enough water to make a puree out of it and then I added just enough of that uh masseca uh to to thicken it back up again but still had tons of rye flavor and the the texture was so great. Even fried you know for crunchy tacos had just a great great chew to it. I think that's a great idea adding the Masaka back because really the only reason that you need the hardcore grinding um you know implements like uh the corona which doesn't even work that well or like you know the the um the really you know the big professional jobs is because to grind it at home in a processor or blender you really need to add more water than you can to make a tortilla but adding the Mosaica back is a genius way to to get around that. And I think, you know, w well with well within the the bounds of uh of mean m mean like Mosica, like as much as I griped about it in the in the article, it's not a it's it it's a it's not a horrible product.
+
+[10:44] It's just and it sounds like it's a gr man, it sounds like a great plan. I'm glad that worked. I might do that from now on, make my life easy. I hate using that corona grinder. Yeah.
+
+[10:53] Hey, how'd your rum uh talk uh? Oh, rum talk went well. I uh you know, I was uh I didn't talk about it. When I was in Germany, uh I was supposed to be talking about and was talking about the effect of yeast on distillation because everyone who does home brewing kind of knows that yeast really affect like what yeast you use affects the flavor of the beer that comes out, but a lot of people don't think about it when it applies to uh distilled beverages. So what I did was I took the same crappy whole food molasses, it wasn't crappy, whatever.
+
+[11:20] I don't mean to insult it, although it was crappy, and then um took three identical batches, pasteurized them all, and pitched uh two different yeasts into it, and then did it in at two different temperatures to show the effects that the yeast is. And the yeast is I mean, the maj the a huge majority of the flavors that are produced in a lot of distilled beverages, the esters, uh the fusel oils, all these all the congeners that we think about, with the exception of just pure molasses aroma or can aroma, come from the yeast. Uh and so I think it was really kind of an eye-opener to some people to see, you know, kind of how how important particular yeast strain is and which is why people are kind of proud of it. But have you ever d visited a distillery? When you visit distilleries, they never talk about their yeast.
+
+[12:00] They they go right past they maybe they let you taste the fermentation, they show it to you, but they don't make a big deal out of it. The way they make a big deal about their stills or the way they make a big deal about the raw materials that go in, and it's really kind of a vital thing. So the the talk went well, in other words. Yeah. I used to be a uh head to ciller at a rum distillery, and we did a lot of experimenting with uh we were doing like fermenting with German Hefeweizen yeast and uh, you know, uh British uh fruity British ale yeast at high temperatures to try to get different characters, and they were just wildly different uh not only just the flavors but the distillates themselves were just you know one would be just full of acetone and the next one would have virtually none.
+
+[12:39] So it's really interesting. Huh would are you allowed to say who you used to distill with uh a rum distillery in New Orleans called uh celebration distillation. You make New Orleans rum and uh yeah we even tried we we found this dry yeast that's uh isolated off of Guatemalan sugar cane and it was you know to make the rum agricole and it was it's just so phenolic and plasticky that no matter how tight of a cut we did it it was just really too much. But it was uh it's fun experimenting with all that. Yeah I mean the tough part I guess is like you know I was talking to the Havana Club guys and you know they um you know they make a big deal about getting the their own yeast off the off the cane that comes out of the field then but then they need to be consistent and that's the big pain in the butt.
+
+[13:24] That's why you can't go totally wild on this stuff and why no one you know none of the big players can go totally wild because if they go totally wild there's no way they're gonna get a consistent product out of it. So then they're put in the position of kind of propagating a particular yeast strain over the course of years which then becomes you know difficult I guess. I mean I don't they they don't talk about that aspect of it. They make a big deal about their yeast coming from you know their area being kind of endogenous to their area but they don't uh or indigenous to their area but they don't um you know they don't talk much about how it's you know kind of kept as a culture over time or kind of how many strains of yeast there are in it, you know? Yeah.
+
+[14:02] So um my question is I'm uh I'm looking to start a small craft soda business and um I've got a lot of good recipes already uh like a a ginger habanero soda and a cucumber Thai basil soda. And my question is w uh you know with a lot of the like the cucumber and watermelon, I mean it tastes awesome and the color's beautiful, but a if it sits overnight all the particulate matter settles out. Right. So what what do I need to a to add? Do I is it like guargum or something like that.
+
+[14:34] What is there anything 'cause I want I want this to be as, you know natural as possible. Is there anything that's not gonna scare people off to see it on the uh the label of uh so you want to keep the stuff suspended. Yeah. Well I mean you could add I mean I mean uh the problem is is that anything that's gonna keep it suspended is gonna also I mean you're obviously you're going for kind of low levels of carbonation otherwise you're gonna get massive foam out anyway with the particulate matter that's in there. But there's uh you know y y you probably don't want to move to something like a PGA pectin.
+
+[15:08] I mean certain pectins would do the job suspending that's what I I spend most of my time obliterating pectin to try and desuspend everything that's in it. You know what I mean? So depending on the particle size that you have, I mean if it's stuff that'll pass through a coffee filter for instance, it can easily be suspended with pectin. Now the next you know thing down is you could susp I mean I I wouldn't want to go in a soda because I don't like what happens to the body of it, but uh you know I mean y we are you suspending big things or small things? Like big pieces of herbs or like just it just I'll juice a cucumber and strain it out through a fine strainer and uh you know pull mix maybe a like a uh a a Thai basil tea in with it.
+
+[15:49] And uh but it's all you know it's it's the particles are are big enough, I guess, where or small enough where they'll go through a fine mesh strainer. Right. And and it it'll h it'll be in solution for a day, but you know, i if I'm serving this in draft, you know, it's all gonna settle to the bottom of the keg. Oh, so you're not you're not bottling you're not bottling it, you're just putting it in a keg. Just yeah, I'm gonna just do corny cornelius kegs and you know, sell it as a kind of an alternative to craft beer for people who are, you know, trying to uh you know, sober up at the end of the night, or just people who like you know, interesting sodas, but you know right.
+
+[16:27] I mean, one thing to do is you treat it, I mean, obviously, you know, you're a distiller and a brewer to treat it like a beer and rack it, but do you like the flavor of it better before with the particles in it? Do you like the look and flavor of the particles or sh or you want to try and think of a way to get rid of the flavor of the particles? I mean you could just go a wine finding route, rack it, and then get that's all of that stuff out of there and be left with a clear clear soda, in which case you could up the uh volumes of CO2 that you pump into it as well and get more of a bite out of it from a CO2 standpoint. You know, the the flip route is to try and stabilize it, and I would guess if you want a really good label declaration with something like that, this is just a straight up guess because I hadn't haven't thought about it, is uh some form of pectin. Um, you know, similar to mean like th think about all the crud that's sitting in grapefruit juice and that stuff is totally stable.
+
+[17:13] Do you know what I mean? And it's basically because of pectin. Um you know, and other suspended kind of plant uh, you know, matter in there, like hemicellulose infection. So I would bet you could get some sort of stabilization that way. Um I haven't researched particularly what product, but like you know who would what you would talk to on that is uh the guys at CP Kelco.
+
+[17:32] CP Kelco, they make all of the um you know, th they're like the pectin people. Um and so th you know, and they're fairly helpful. So they they would probably have some sort of product that you could use. If you want to go like a straight hydro route, I mean the good thing about pectin, fantastic label declaration. You could just say what it comes from, like citrus citrus peel or apple pumice or whatever in the hell.
+
+[17:53] You know what I mean? Right, right. But um then the other people who I would talk to on stability and CP Celco also handles some of the the other stability stuff. I mean, FMC biopolymer, they handle a lot of the beer stuff, but I don't think you want to go, like I said, PGA, like propylene glycolalgenate, all that stuff, kind of head stabilizers for beer and things like that. Right.
+
+[18:11] No, I don't want that. I don't think you want to do that. And I don't think you want to add so much body because it's gonna be a real huge problem on foam out to do something like a gum arabic xanthan mix, which is what we use as our main emulsifier. Now, gum arabic is a good emulsifier and might hold stuff in. I don't know though.
+
+[18:26] It's not really th a thickener, you know what I mean? But that was used to uh uh stabilize soda emulsions, but I don't know that it's going to stabilize stuff from sinking. It's more of an emulsifier in case you had fats and oils in it. You know what I'm saying? Uh then TIC gums, uh you know, they're pretty good and they spend a lot of time thinking about label declarations, and they might have a a good way to go.
+
+[18:49] You know, Scott Riefler's their guy out on the west coast, and I don't know, I don't remember who is here on the East Coast, but they have a lot of proprietary blends, which are you know might have be a monetary issue for you if you're a huge producer, but you know, if you're not a huge producer, then the cost is gonna be negligible based on the fact that you're juicing fresh cucumbers. You know what I mean? So um so I would hit up CP Celco, see whether they have a pectin product for you. I would hit up uh TIC gums and see whether they have a straight up stabilization, and then as a last resort, I would go to FMC biopolymer. Alright, I don'll look into this.
+
+[19:20] Any uh I remember before in a previous uh show you had talked about uh like coriander and green tie chili soda or something of any other interesting flavors you could uh throw my way? Oh, I don't know. Well really expensive ones, but that one's good. In fact, we're using that one tonight. We're making a drink, we're doing a Lucky Rice event tonight, uh and we're doing we're making an old fashioned with that coriander syrup.
+
+[19:41] Uh you know, in general, for for us at Booker and Dax, we like to stock one or two syrups around that are dual purpose. So I can we can use the coriander for an old fashioned, and then I can also make a soda out of it. You know what I mean? Um we always have, you know, I always have a clarified lime juice sitting around, so we can always make a lime soda if we needed to. Um, you know, obviously, but the you know, the stuff that that Nastash and I have done in the past before we had a bar, uh has been extraordinarily expensive stuff like straight strawberry juice and raspberry juice you know, turn into a soda.
+
+[20:12] Delicious. Remember that one says? Strawbunkle soda? Yeah, that's stuff is amazing. Fantastically expensive though.
+
+[20:18] I don't know what you'd have to charge someone to serve that as a soda. You know what I mean? Sure. I mean, I'd have to charge like mixed drink prices or more even. And then people will be like, I'm paying 14 bucks for friggin' soda.
+
+[20:28] I'm like, well, I there's two pints of blueberries in it. What do you want out of me? You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm looking to do kind of like similar prices to a pint of beer, you know, 350, four bucks for a pint of you know, craft soda. So you want to stick with stronger flavors that you don't have to put as much in and and then have the majority of what goes in be water.
+
+[20:47] Exactly. Exactly. All right, thank uh uh do you have time for one one question? Um, quick one and then we've got to go to a break. Okay, um I was wondering about uh paratese and digestive.
+
+[20:59] Um, do you think that it really works? Is alcohol good for does it impu impede digestion and uh or does it stimulate digestion, or is is basically alcohol bad for digestion? And if you have any favorite apparatus and digestive. Huh. I never thought of that.
+
+[21:18] Whether it actually does anything, because I discount all health claims in general for everything at all times. So uh I've never actually thought about it, but I'm sure someone has done the study of uh kind of rate of digestion and alcohol consumption both before and after. Uh what do you like to have before uh before a meal? Do you like you like it? You don't really do that kind of stuff, right?
+
+[21:38] No. I mean, I like compari. Yeah, that's true. I like a compari beforehand. And afterwards, I you know, I don't I don't go for like the like uh upset stomach pound some Fournette afterwards or like you know the late night Fournette shot that all the bartenders go for.
+
+[21:52] But uh I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I'm gonna think about that one though and come back. In fact, if you send a question to Nastasha for next week's radio show, I'll try to remember to do some actual research on alcohol and digestion. Alrighty.
+
+[22:08] Yep. Let's do it. Oh the shop. Bump bump bump bump, baby. Bump bump bump.
+
+[22:29] Well bounce off. That's all right. Bubba Babotsi! Oh, hell yeah, Jack. That was a good call.
+
+[22:58] Oh, thanks. What album is that? Uh I'll check it out in a minute. I'm not sure what album it's from. Bootsy's rubber band.
+
+[23:05] Oh, hell yes. Yeah. Love Bootsy. You know, Bootsy's still playing. Still out there with the with the uh star colored uh base and the star-shaped glasses.
+
+[23:13] Amazing dude. Stretching out in Bootsy's rubber band. That's what's the album, yeah. I'll tell you something. If you don't like Bootsy Collins, you just have some severe problems with you.
+
+[23:21] Like your butt's broken, your funk motor is busted. You need to turn that son of a bitch on and go out and listen to some Bootsy. Anyway, today's show is brought to you by Chris. Who's it brought to you? Tell it.
+
+[23:33] Today's show is brought to you by Modernist Pantry. You're back. We love you. We missed you. We missed you, Modernist Pantry.
+
+[23:38] Supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
+
+[24:03] And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Maybe. Hey, listen.
+
+[24:14] Here's a challenge. All you suckers out there, go try to come from a country that he will not ship to. There's gotta be something. Cuba. Zimbabwe.
+
+[24:22] Uh uh, we'll talk about that later. Okay, uh, if we have time, we'll talk about our Zimba our possible Zimbabwe trip later. Anyway, oh whatever. Anyway, we'll talk about it. Okay.
+
+[24:30] Uh, with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Mondo's Pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist Pantry carries VersaWhip 600k, a modified soy protein, which is a great replacement for egg whites and gelatin in whipped applications like meringue, mousse, and other hot or cold foams. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of VersaWhip to play with. Simply use the promo code CI81 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs.
+
+[25:02] So there are several VersaWhips out there. And as they said, VersaWhip is uh is a uh it's either a soy protein or actually a uh a milk protein, whey protein. There's two different ones, a soy one and a hue one. And um they they function slightly different. I guess uh, you know, Chris is selling the um uh the soy one.
+
+[25:19] Uh if you're using VersaWhip for the first time, uh the other good whipping agent that a lot of us use is Methylcel F, like Frank 50 is a good whipping agent. It's different. Proteins uh are whipping agents because they're large, uh charged, and they're large and charged. Anyway, uh and so they uh they're they're good at uh aeration thing, whipping agents. Uh and well, actually, foam stabilizers.
+
+[25:40] You that's actually it's not really a whipping agent, they're foam stabilizer. I guess I could be a whipping agent, but you might want to add some solid sauce to increase whipping when you're going. Another thing about Versawhip, VersawWhip can be weird. In other words, like when you're whipping an egg white, it it kind of lifts up kind of like slow and steady. Versawhip, you can whip it for a while.
+
+[25:57] Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Bang, you have a foam. So if you buy it, just be aware that that is uh it might happen and don't give up right away when uh you're whipping stuff, right? Yes. Yeah, okay.
+
+[26:09] Steven writes in from Moscow uh with remember he was moving to Moscow? Yeah. And uh uh with water for coffee. That sounds like a book. This water for chocolate.
+
+[26:18] Uh yeah. But water makes much more sense for coffee than for chocolate. Right? Anyway. Uh hello all, all love listening to the show.
+
+[26:26] Listening for a long time. Wanted to follow up on equipment issues. I called in a few weeks back. I live in Moscow, and the water is absolutely horrible. That's too bad.
+
+[26:33] Too bad. I usually get bottered. Our water here is good. That's mean. That's mean that's mean.
+
+[26:38] Anyway, that's mean. Anyway, I usually get botter bottled mineral water shipped in, but I want to go for an under the sink filter. The local bottled water is not too bad and has an okay taste. Uh as everything's not filtered out of it. Um the big coffee head that I am, I need to have something to play with, uh, water wise, filter wise.
+
+[26:55] So see that filters seem to clean out most of the crud. The filters that he that he finds that seem to uh uh clean out most of the crud tend to be reverse osmosis filters. Uh but at least from what I hear, the water tastes really bad out of an reverse reverse osmosis, aka an RO machine, uh, because it filters out almost everything. But is an RO machine really the only way to go? Will the basic multi uh filter system work for me?
+
+[27:16] Any specific processes that you would recommend, brands, etc. Okay. Uh keep up the good work and let us know when you're heading to Moscow. Stasi was almost gonna go to Moscow like two years ago. Yeah.
+
+[27:25] What the hell happened? The storm. Oh no, no, no. It was Iceland, the volcano erupted, right? Yeah, and the na yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:32] Yeah, yeah, and then no one would fly over that thing. Yeah. And so she's like, meh, meh. It's typical, right? You were like, you were like resigned yourself to it.
+
+[27:39] Yeah. You're like, that's it. Because you know, as uh those of you that know, Nastash is the curious mix. Half well, not really half Russian, like like quarter quarter Russian, quarter Ukrainian, but we call it Russian, no offense, Ukraine, and uh half Mexican. So she's you know, trying to see whether she can go to Russia and also deny that half of her existence.
+
+[27:57] I'm just messing with just messing with her. Anyways. Um the problem with reverse osmosis is that it takes out almost everything in it, and coffee needs to have some miner mineralization in order for it to taste good. So the there's a couple different things you could do. You could go uh RO and then use uh actually mineralize it afterwards.
+
+[28:16] And uh I didn't have a chance to look up there's some companies that will sell kind of um kits that where you can kind of remineralize the water. That said, I don't know what's in the water in Moscow that makes it taste bad. At my house, uh, you know, even in New York we have a decent water supply. Uh the a particular pipe that mine comes through occasionally is chlorinated. And so I filter all of my water for coffee and I use a multi-stage filter.
+
+[28:41] You want to go uh a big filter first. Uh, you know, when I say big, I mean, you know, uh somewhat porous, and it's gonna capture most of the stuff that will clog the later filter. And they have filters that uh, you know, so they'll have filters that'll take down almost everything down to uh cysts and and tiny little things, but that'll also remove almost all of the flavor out of it as long as the water is safe to go. The issue with those filters is is that when you add multiple system uh filters in a in a house system, you are decreasing the pressure coming through it by a lot. And so you uh want to make sure that you get enough pressure through it.
+
+[29:14] You want to make sure you change your filters. I use the GE home water stuff. I don't know whether it's sufficient for what's going on in Moscow. Um or you could have an alternate problem is that the water is not not just bad tasting, right? Uh or you know, it has problems, but is also too mineralized, in which case you need to demineralize it and then remineralize it somewhat.
+
+[29:34] But I totally agree with you, reverse osmosis system is not uh the way to go. I'll I I'll you know send us back some more parameters about what actually your problem with the water is over there, and I'll take a look and see whether or anyone else who has uh some experience with some real hard water places and coffee, maybe can write us in and tell us what they use. Yeah? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[29:51] Uh Tom Fisher writes in about gum syrup. Hello, Dave, Anastasia, Jack, and Carlos. Carlos is not with us anymore, brother. Carlos doesn't like us anymore. Jack, what do you go to do?
+
+[30:01] He's around. He is working at a hotel. I think he's uh delivering meals as a room service or something like that. Specifically because he hated us at the radio show. Not like I think specifically because he hated Nastasia.
+
+[30:13] Wow. Hardcore. You should see the faces that Nastasha shoots off at the people here. It's crazy. One too many vegan faces, I think.
+
+[30:19] Yeah, you know, we have people here, like they're eating their pizza, Nastasha gives them a look out the window, they just push the pizza to the side, they can't eat anymore, they leave. It's crazy. Anyway, uh Tom Fisher writes in. Recently I've uh g uh been given a book of cocktail recipes, and glancing through it, one ingredient kept jumping out at me. It's an old book, I guess.
+
+[30:35] Uh gum syrup. Uh confused, I looked up several classic recipes, drinks that normally have sugar or sure uh sugar syrup added, but in this book, all these drinks call for gum syrup. I have the ingredients on hand, so I don't necessarily mind making the syrup, but is there any need to do so? Does the gum Arabic really make a difference? Also, in searching for a recipe for gum syrup, I've found half a dozen different versions.
+
+[30:55] What do you recommend? Thanks and hoping you're having fun in Germany. Tom Fisher. Okay. Uh for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, gum syrup, is uh gum syrup is where you instead of just making a regular simple syrup, uh, which is just sugar and water, you add a boatload of gum Arabic to it, right?
+
+[31:13] Now I would I would add as much as you kind of can, right, within the realm of portability. The interesting thing about gum arabic is uh other than the fact that it comes from tree sap uh is, or if it comes from tree, it comes out of a tree. Uh, and the fact that uh, you know, for a while there was problems with it because it was coming from an area in Sudan, and maybe you were supporting terrorism and/or genocide by buying it. I think that's been fixed now. I'm not sure.
+
+[31:34] Anyway, uh I shouldn't say stuff like that, just like you're kind of like off the cuff as though like because it's it sounds horrible. But I think they might have fixed those problems. Anyways, gum Arabic um is really cool because unlike most uh hydrocolloids, which are long chains, right? Uh uh gum arabic is very highly branched in a similar way to a millipectin is very highly branched, and so it's a very kind of large weight uh hydrocolloid polymer, but is also uh you know not too thick, even in kind of very heavy solutions. It also has a protein in it that acts as a an emulsifier, which is why it was used for a long, long time, or still is used, although it's expensive, to stabilize soda syrups uh that have some oil in them because uh it also has the really cool capacity that it holds its emulsi uh emulsifying capabilities even when it's diluted radically and quickly, which is why it's great for things like soda syrups.
+
+[32:26] Uh it also adds body, which is why it's in these drinks. So it's an emulsifier, which means it's gonna in a shaken drink, it's gonna make the bubbles hold longer and it's gonna it's gonna get a better texture on it. Um and that's basically why it's there. Um I'd say it's worth it. I've never experimented exclusively with straight gum syrup, uh, but we use a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan called ticaloid 210s for all of our emulsified fat drinks, like cold buttered rum, uh in all of our house made orjaz that we have.
+
+[32:55] We have like a walnut orja, we have a pistachio orjah, we have a toasted almond orjah that we do at Booker and Dax, and we use this Ticoloid 210. We also have, we never put it on the menu, but we do it for one-offs. We have basically what we call tick syrup uh or tick simple. And it is a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan, uh, and it's basically like a modern day gum syrup. And when you shake it uh into a daiquiri, let's say, you get kind of a it's a different mouthfeel.
+
+[33:21] So half the people really love it. Half the people prefer regular simple syrup in it, and so it's hard to say it's not better or worse. I think it's creamy and it kind of gets a better head, more foamy. I kind of like it. Do you like the tick simple or do you like the regular better?
+
+[33:34] Do you remember? I don't remember. You don't remember? Like, but it splits along lines. Uh so I would definitely recommend making some uh and trying.
+
+[33:40] And we should do some regular good old-fashioned gum syrup. But if you're gonna do it, freaking do it right. Add a boatload of gum Arabic, right? I mean, like, don't sissy around with it. It's expensive though.
+
+[33:50] Maybe one reason not to. Anyway, hope that helps. Uh okay. Uh should we take another one more and then we take a commercial break? We can have time for commercial break.
+
+[33:57] I'm gonna rip this stuff through. I'm gonna rip through this. Teddy DeVico wrote in about the foie gras ban in California. I'm curious to hear your opinions on the upcoming foie gras ban in California. The way I see it is that animal rights activists uh are just choosing a battle they can win so they gain momentum to tackle the real criminals like Purdue, Tyson, etc.
+
+[34:14] I enjoy foie gras and personally think banning all foie gras in California is ludicrous. However, some foie gras producers do treat their ducks and geese horribly. But then again, the same goes for chicken, pork, beef, etc. The government should send out inspectors to approve of farms before they uh before they are allowed to sell their products. And also they should check up on the farms on at least a yearly basis to make sure the animals are treated humanely.
+
+[34:35] Teddy DeVico. Um, I you know I don't really know. Here's the problem, right? And I'm gonna like everyone's gonna jump down my throat now, I'm gonna be an outcast in in the in the chef world. I'm like I like foie gras fine, but I could really live without it.
+
+[34:50] I mean, like, you know what I mean? Like I like most of my friends, uh, you know, like if you you know take like take away their foie gras like taking uh you know, taking the guns away from an NRA member. Like they freak out. You know what I mean? Um But I don't think it's reasonable for me to decide like what I think is right or wrong just based on whether or not I really personally care about it that much.
+
+[35:11] Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I do like a hot, hot foie gras, you know like nice I like I I like it. I like it fine. It's not my favorite freaking thing on earth. What about you, Stas?
+
+[35:19] Yeah I agree. Yeah. Uh and thanks for taking the bullet with me. I like that. See Stas, you know, Stas for all the crap we give Stas, she is loyal, right?
+
+[35:27] That is true. Yeah. Did you try the foie gras donut last night? I didn't no I didn't. Was it good?
+
+[35:32] I don't know. Someone said it was they thought it was going to be like a cream like foie gras and cream inside, but it was just straight foie gras. Really? Really good? They did not like it.
+
+[35:43] Yeah it doesn't sound good. I did not try it. I did not try it. I don't I do not know. Anyway I heard someone else who tried it they said that they liked it though and their foie gras was more like a moose on the inside.
+
+[35:52] Anyway we're not here to talk about it. Well anyway foie gras. So um I I really don't know where I stand on this. You know I believe that we should you know I I eat meat obviously I think we should move towards uh humane methods of production in in all in all forms uh uh of farming you know to the great greatest extent possible the the question is uh I I think the the real there's there's there's two things right there's there's one is that you know I I don't like anyone being forbidden to um do something or serve something that they want to serve in their restaurant but there needs to be a limit I mean obviously you're not allowed to like you know murder people and serve them in restaurants right so there there's obviously a limit on what chefs should be allowed to do uh in a restaurant um you know and then but there's the question of whether or not foie gras is basically just the poster child for what's perceived as cruelty, because you know, for those if there's anyone out there that doesn't know how foie gras produced, basically uh uh animals eat uh you force feed animals a whole boatload of stuff, their livers uh inflate uh and then uh and become delicious, uh and and it's called gavage. And that's really what people are griping about is gavage.
+
+[36:59] Uh you know, there's arguments that come in on a bunch of different sizes, because then you have people coming in saying, Well, you're you're you're shafting my cultural heritage. In fact, you know, gavage is not a recent thing. Like the ancient Romans practiced gavage on uh various different animals um to kind of fatten them up and increase their liver. So it's it's a very old practice, which doesn't make it right. Uh and uh, you know, people enjoy the product which doesn't make it right.
+
+[37:25] The real question is is is this practice um bad or not? I really haven't done the research on it to find out whether or not I actually think it is torture or cruelty. I'm sure that there are places where it's done in a completely horrible, inhumane manner. And I'm uh the but the question is is that necessarily the case? And from people I've spoken to, albeit unbiased people, um sorry, albeit biased people, um, there are ways to produce foie gras where it is not uh a torture for the animals.
+
+[37:56] And then, you know, there's the possibly, but you know, uh what do I know about it? You know, uh apocryphal stories of you know, in certain places, well-treated uh geese and ducks actually coming up to the person who's gonna perform the gavage. So in other words, they're they're not uh they're not afraid of it. I uh I I like then there's the problem of like, yeah, you're taking care of like, you know, the this one really high priced product, but on the other hand, uh, you know, you're allowing the horrible farming practices to take place. You don't even call it farming, like horrible factory meat processes to take place uh and not really bothering with those people because you're targeting someone that you can easily target because you are making people feel guilty for going out and spending a lot of money on a product that you're then associating with torture, the same way it worked on fur, right?
+
+[38:40] Uh you know, so again, I don't really know where I stand. I know Dave Chang uh trusts his foie gras producers, I think we get from Hudson Valley at uh at Mamafuku, and and you know, and has visited their farm, uh, has seen how they treat the animals. And for all the crap that Dave gets for being like all pro meat, like he is also pro-responsible farming. Uh and so, you know, I know he vouches for uh that, or at least he told I think he said he vouches for that. Um, Thomas Keller signed on saying, you know, he vouches for some of the producers out out uh that he deals with as being uh humane.
+
+[39:14] So I think if we can do it in a humane fashion, then I don't think it's necessarily inhumane just because their livers are diseased, unquote. That doesn't make sense, right? Does that make sense to you, Nastasha? Anyway. If my mom overfeeds my cat, can we eat the cat's liver?
+
+[39:30] My mom overfeeds my cat. Uh just in case you missed that, Nastasha just advocated uh eating pet cats. Just saying. That's what I heard too. Yeah.
+
+[39:40] Just just that's just what I'm saying. Anyway. Um, I've got to rip through some Jack. Do I have a little bit of time or no? Oh, yeah, you got like five more.
+
+[39:50] Okay. So let me uh let me rip through some let me rip through some questions. Um Greg writes in uh with a few questions. One, uh when you do low temperature cooking low temper sausage, low temperature oil, which we're gonna do for the uh Museum of Food and Drink, we're gonna do beer brats or something similar at low temperatures, come eat them. Uh, do you pierce the casings to let the oils into the casing or is this unnecessary?
+
+[40:08] Do not do that. You want to keep the oils that were in the thing in the thing to begin with. Uh water based things like beer will actually go through the membrane of the casing and like you know, suck flavors out and put flavors in. But you're trying to get as little flavor uh leech in or out as possible when you're using oil in like a Ziploc bag, so don't pierce it. And then you're just gonna lose juices.
+
+[40:28] Like, you know, when you take a properly cooked sausage and you poke it, it's like juice sprays out of it, and that's what you kind of want. You don't you want to keep that stuff in there? Uh so no. Uh two. I've been playing around with sous vide chicken breasts recently and really love how they come out.
+
+[40:39] I've been following Jason Lachin's recommendations at 56 Celsius for two and a half to three hours. That's low for me. Of course, the chicken looks anemic right out of the bag, so I've been trying to come up with a way to make fried chicken using a cheapo deep fryer. Alternatively, I could use a very hot pot of high smoke point oil, most likely peanut. Can you give me some recommendations about batters or coatings that would help here?
+
+[40:57] I think it's too low. You know, when you're gonna fry it, you're gonna bring the stuff up. Um anyway, oh, I'm looking for something that would adhere nicely, but be a decent vehicle for herbs and spices and would fry up quickly without significant heat soak into the meat. Listen, what you want to do is make sure you pull the stuff out when you're cooking it, let it hot, let it flash off for a second to get uh uh, you know, get a little bit of a pellicle on the outside, then straight flour, right? Or you could salt it, but straight flour, and then put all of the flavor into like a liquid.
+
+[41:25] I use buttermilk uh egg and uh I use I use basically buttermilk, egg, baking soda, baking powder, and you can put all the flavor you want in there and then back into flour and fry it. That's what I do. Now I got yelled at uh, you know, by some southern guys uh at the last thing because they use an entirely different technique. But that using low temperature cooking adheres like a bastard and you can get flavors into it. So that's what I do, and that's what I would recommend.
+
+[41:48] Uh also I'm the habanero pepper taming guy from way back, other than Steingarden, Jeffrey Steingrad, and our good buddy. Haven't spoken to him in a while though, right? Anyway, uh it's good to labor over peppers techniques. I haven't found a decent way to reduce capsation load in uh habanero peppers, which are extremely hot. Not as hot as Nagajalokia or whatever they're pronounced, ghost peppers, but they taste a whole hell of a lot better.
+
+[42:05] Anyway, I still have a few more experiments to try, but recently I got access to a centrifuge, and this technique struck me. Could you emulsify the trimmed pepper flesh with some um uh oleophilic that means fat-loving uh medium centrifuged the whole mess and extract the supposedly capsation minimized goodness from the bottom? My thought is the capsation uh is an oleomer, so if I can uh get it to stick to something, can I filter or separate? I guess I didn't mean fat. Anyway, I should be in good shape.
+
+[42:29] Any thoughts during the process? What about uh oleophiles? As a first cut, I was thinking about just using olive oil, but there's also casein or other things out there that might work. Thanks, take care, Greg. I don't think that's gonna work, Greg, because you might be able to well, I mean, there's no doubt you could probably get a a capsation enriched section of it, right?
+
+[42:45] But you're not gonna get all you're not gonna get all all of it out, or even probably enough to make a huge dent. Uh I did some preliminary research last week when this question came in. I didn't find anything. I'm gonna keep looking to see whether there's anyone that's done any research on centrifically uh accept separated capsation at lower uh at lower speeds. But I have very I have I am not holding out high hopes, but I'll look into it, right?
+
+[43:09] I could tell because you can hear the clacks. If I ask her to write an email, you hear the claggity clack, then you know she's doing it. Uh-huh, yeah, sure. Not anything about this. All right.
+
+[43:18] What's this? There's some cats that called in. Wow. That's hardcore. That's hardcore.
+
+[43:25] Uh, we're not gonna we're not gonna get to we're not gonna get to all the questions too. No, I don't think so. Okay, listen, it's because we had a week without the show. Okay, so let me let me do this, and then hopefully I can get it one more. But uh um uh Michael Nakin wrote in, uh long time resin our buddy, right?
+
+[43:40] Uh Herbivoraceous, uh, and comment on last two weeks ago on the show. So he said, Um, so I couldn't possibly listen to the discussion of the vegan menu at Del Posto without writing in. The idea that this is talking about what you know, you know, Mark and those guys said about cooking the vegan menus. Uh the idea that vegetarians mostly don't really love food and are just difficult diners who mainly want some sort of uh health food sustenance is how can I say this for the radio, complete and utter crap. I've been a lacto ovo vegetarian for 23 years, and I'm pretty much never think about anything besides food and how to maximize the pleasure of my next meal.
+
+[44:15] But I'm fully engaged with food. I listen to your show. I've read Modernist Cuisine from cover to cover and have started at a few restaurants. My first book uh cookbook is coming out this week, uh, and it's called uh Herbivoracious A Flavor Revolution with 150 vibrant and visual original vegetarian recipes. In fact, publication date is today.
+
+[44:32] I looked it up on Amazon. Should be interesting. Uh congratulations and uh good luck with the book. Uh anyway, uh and I think if you take a look at it, you'll agree that there's no aspect of self-sacrifice involved. For me, being a vegetarian is just a completely personal thing.
+
+[44:46] I'm not wired to want to eat animals, and I don't think I'm alone. There are many of us who don't eat animals but love food. I'd love to see more high-end restaurants take that seriously, not simply throw some pasta in a Burblanc our way and hope we don't care. Thanks, Michael. Now, first of all, in defense of Del Posto, clearly that's not what they were doing, right?
+
+[45:03] You know what I mean? Also, I think um look here's the thing, right? I mean this is a tough problem. I mean, like obviously you love, you know, Michael, you love food, and and there's whole cultures, whole civilizations that are based on uh especially lacto ovo vegetarianism. I think the the chef's gripe is probably more against uh vegans, I would say, right?
+
+[45:29] Yeah. Yeah. No? I I mean, I I don't know. But even so, like, there's there's no such thing as like personality.
+
+[45:37] Well, there's the thing. You're just it's like it's like it's like racism, basically. Yes. You're basically a r a racist. I have something to say.
+
+[45:44] Okay. Last night we were coming back from dinner. Mark and I were coming back from dinner, just a small dinner of like miso soup, uh salad, and fried chicken. And we have leftover fried chicken, and we're walking on like 58th and 9th or something. Sounds like a classic Nastasha story right here.
+
+[46:00] Okay. And there's a homeless person on cardboard, wrapped in like a very nasty blanket. This poor guy, right? And he's asking everyone who passes for change. And I say, I have some food in this bag.
+
+[46:15] And he said, What is it? And I said, It's fried chicken. And he said, I don't eat chicken because it depends on where it's been raised. Okay. See, you have no respect for human dignity.
+
+[46:26] Nastasha has no respect for human dignity. I'm saying, look at how, you know, lots of people are very discerning. It doesn't matter what. It's not discerning. The guy has a moral because the guy doesn't have a home, he can't have morals on whether or not he's chicken.
+
+[46:39] But yes. No, I'm saying good for him. So are you saying good for him? Yeah. Good for him.
+
+[46:44] Good for him. All right, so you're not. I know, I'm not. You're not saying anything bad about this guy. No, not at all.
+
+[46:49] Alright, well, I misjudge you then. Thank you. All right. Uh the the the the point is that um you know I g the the the the issue is is that a lot of chefs uh w here's the deal. Sh chefs don't like f pick what they perceive as pickiness in any form, right?
+
+[47:07] And so the the issue is is if they perceive um what's going on as just being pickiness, it's not that they don't mind the work. Chefs love work and they love problems. You know what I mean? They like to they they they like uh a challenge, they like this. They they intent don't like picky people in general, as a generalization.
+
+[47:25] And what they do is is that people they don't necessarily, and here's the real crux, respect the decisions other people make based on their diet, right? Say it's accurate, Nastasha. And so um they perceive that as being uh they perceive certain dietary choices, not in a hundred percent of the cases, but they perceive the people who make them as making uh decisions that are either a picky, b whiny or c antisocial in some cases. Right. Right?
+
+[47:55] I think they spent a lot of time they work with food, they make choices, they make recipes based on their love of food. And when there's a picky eater, and then it creates a whole new But Michael's clearly not a picky eater. That's what I'm saying. But here's the the problem was when it comes to generalization, you know what I mean? So I mean, and and it it it's disingenuous to basically give you know Michael a pass because he's lacto-ovo vegetarian.
+
+[48:19] I'm guarantee you there's vegans out there who love food. You know what I mean? Um it's a lot harder, I think. You know, anytime you limit your palate, it's more of a challenge, it becomes more difficult, and then it becomes harder for people who don't cook that way to produce a product on the quality of the quality level that they want to produce. See in other words, another problem that chefs have is that they want to produce the best quality stuff that they can produce for you, and if they don't sit around all day thinking about the best way to make a vegan meal, then it's hard for them to produce their what they think is their best showing, right?
+
+[48:51] That's uh uh when they're doing vegan. If you add on to that a per this is I mean, sorry to say it, but this is like innate, right? Like an innate distrust of any sort of thing that they see as picky, then you're like, you know, you're adding in insult to injury. But I think uh I mean as I don't know how the hell this is coming off the outside outside uh worldly horrible, probably horribly, but I mean the fact of the matter is uh that you know you're you're right. I mean we should judge every a chef should judge every customer they come in on their own merits, and there's plenty of meat eaters who are some picky some bitches who you know who chefs don't like dealing with.
+
+[49:30] I don't like salt, I don't like you know what I mean. There are people who legitimately can't have too much salt because they're hypertensive, but then there's people who say that they don't like it. People it it's it's like okay, like I'm allergic to stuff. I like I'll die if I eat like a large quantity of uh raw cherries, and the only reason I'm allergic to it is because I'm being punished for making fun of people's allergies for years. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[49:50] But chefs do that all the time. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Uh but I think, you know, uh, you know, part of the if you read, if you go to uh the Amazon and you and you look at uh Michael's cookbook, Michael Mackenzie's new cookbook, uh, and you read the copy for it, which I did today, basically he's saying, you know, this is food that you'll be happy to cook for your meat-eating friends because it's basically just delicious. I love that.
+
+[50:10] I support that. Uh and it's very similar, actually. Pat Brown, who's uh professor at Stanford, who's was working on the he's a vegetarian, is working to try and make meat analogs. He's like, he's like, uh, you know, and he's doing it actually because he does want to proselytize. He wants people to stop eating meat, he wants meat to stop being produced, he wants people to stop uh farming meat.
+
+[50:27] Uh he's friends with uh Harold McGee spoke to me. Anyways, so his point is you we will you will never decrease the amount of meat that is consumed in this country by the average person unless you make a product that a meat eater wants to eat more than the meat they're eating now. And that's it. Right? Yeah.
+
+[50:43] All right, listen, I got a couple questions I didn't get to. We'll get you next week. Cooking issues fish
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market. Check out Fairway Market.com for more information. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Calling all of your questions to 718 497-2128.
+
+[0:31] That's 718-497-2128. Is that right, Jack? Did I get it right again? Uh yeah, that's right. Man, I have this thing right all the time.
+
+[0:38] I know it's like it's like uh once I forgot once I remember it, I never forget. Yeah. I'll wake up when I'm 90 and just start screaming that number out to people. Don't change that thing, because I know I'll never remember it again. Never, never change that.
+
+[0:49] Um I am not joined right now in the studio by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, but Jack and I don't know where she is. She should be here, so she probably got caught on that L train. Damn L train. So we're gonna have to play that uh shootsey groove L train song to make fun of the L L train later again uh in one of our one of our favorite uh songs, right? So, uh what's going on here?
+
+[1:12] We have a oh is this a new question in? Yeah. Okay. Uh so while I'm waiting for Nastasha to come in, uh so I can shoot the poop with her. We'll go into some of the questions I missed from last time.
+
+[1:22] Uh Jonathan Rogers, actually his name is Jonathan Woodruff Rogers the Third. I did not know that. He uh is one of our former interns, actually, nice guy, uh at the FCI. Uh writes in a question about equipment. Hey Dave and Nastasha.
+
+[1:35] Uh nice bumping into you the other afternoon. I'm following up regarding at the bar, by the way. Um uh that's Booker and Dax, our bar. Go visit. Uh I'm just following up regarding some questions I have uh uh in my new gig.
+
+[1:46] I'm catering lunches for a few tech startup companies Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, uh, through the company City Grit. Since it's only three days a week uh plus prep, I have some free time to experiment with some food, which is good. Very few uh people who are cooking for a living actually have the time to do a lot of experimentation, which is why uh you know my job uh director of culinary technology at the French culinary, especially when I was there full time was so great for that because I didn't have a service to worry about. So that's yeah and that's why Farran shuts down his place for uh you know or you know for a half the year or whatever it is so that he has time to they have time to do experimental work. Um anyway um okay also the companies allow me to pretty much cook whatever I want uh with a six item menu that changes weekly I have roughly $7,000 to spend and was wondering what you recommend I get some information on brands andor recommendation uh recommend locations to purchase the products things I'm interested in having in my life are a deli slicer a dehydrator a meat grinder a chamber vacuum sealer a fryer a smoker or any other cool gadgets within the price range they're getting a combi oven and I currently have a circulator thinking about getting another one.
+
+[2:50] Any information or advice will help thanks again. Looking forward to stopping by and letting you know how it's going. Thanks again JW. Okay. Now $7,000 is gonna get eaten up pretty quickly.
+
+[3:02] I love a delis first of all I'll just get another circulator. That's another like $800 right there. Just get another one this way you have two and you can keep one running while you use the other one for service or you can have you know you're never gonna regret having two circulators around. Now something like a smoker I would go cheap on the smoker. The smoker nobody really likes it but the smoker that everyone gets is only like a couple like a $150.
+
+[3:26] It's like the uh I forget that there's like a little chief or a big chief or something like that. It's basically just like a quilted metal box, you know, that little fine quilt pattern, metal box with like a with a heater in the bottom. And uh the guys over at Somme have modified it by drilling a a hole in the side and putting a smoke generator with a little heater in on the side to cool the smoke down. But, you know, that's basically all there is to it. In a restaurant situation, or even in this catering situation in New York City where you don't have the space for a big dedicated smoker, these things are light, they can be moved around very easily.
+
+[4:00] And again, nobody loves them, but you know, Wiley uses it at WD50. Um they use it at Sombar. A bunch of people use this because it's cheap and it's easy to stow away when you're not using it. So that's why I'd recommend for the caterer there. Uh dehydrator, get the Excalibur.
+
+[4:16] There's no question that you should get the X caliber dehydrator, and dehydrator is a great thing to have. Uh Excalibur is the reason you want to get the Excalibur one. I've used some of the round ones that where the stuff goes through and all this other nonsense, and I've used uh I've used some various ones. Unless you can have a lot of money to or to custom build one, the Excalibur is great because it gets a lot of racks in it, and the racks are square, which means that they you can lay things out in a way that makes sense. Those round ones with a hole in the middle, what the hell are you gonna lay out in that?
+
+[4:44] It doesn't make sense. Plus, the dehydrator, it's easy to use flat sheets and dehydrate liquids to make leathers or or sheets or or papers. It's also easy to dry things on the perforated racks. It's just, you know, it's also the dehydrator is really good, the X caliber because it's very even throughout. So the top rack is gonna dry just as e evenly as the bottom rack.
+
+[5:04] You can use it for fermentation experiments. I mean, you know, I have one. Uh I've always, you know, have one. We have one at Somme, we have one at the FCI. You know, that's the one that everyone who anyone who buys a different dehydrator for a restaurant regrets it.
+
+[5:19] So uh go for the Excalibur. Uh, which I guess, you know, I guess that I'm I don't really usually recommend brands like that, but there you go. I actually paid for mine straight up on Amazon. Anyway, they're not that much. Uh for the deli slicer.
+
+[5:29] Now I've been very spoiled in my life. I don't have one right now, but uh the Hobart model 3000 is a thick slicer. I did a video for them and they gave one to me, but I left it to school. I don't know why. I should have taken that thing with me because I love that dang thing so much.
+
+[5:48] But it's it's like, you know, it props up like a car so you can clean underneath it. The blade pops out so you can throw it in the dishwasher. Uh it slices like a freaking dream. Uh, but and it slices really, really well. In fact, prior to the Hobart Model 3000, the slicer that uh always recommended people get was the Berserba SE12.
+
+[6:08] Uh slicer, meat slicer, by the way, just on meat slicer basics. Uh the average meat slicer that uh we get here in the United States is a gravity slicer, meaning they're on that angle, and you see them, if you see them at deli, they're on an angle, and you're supposed to use gravity to uh basically force the product into the blade and then slice as you go, right? And it has that little handle that you push down. Rookie mistake, i i if your slicer is not very good or your slicer is not very sharp, you have to apply a good bit of pressure on uh the item to get it to slice properly as it goes through. Uh this is a horrible practice and causes the bottom of your meat or whatever you're slicing to kind of wedge out as it's getting cut.
+
+[6:48] It's got like healing out at the bottom, and it's uh you know, it's a sign that you're that A, you're not Slicer's not great, B, it's not that sharp. Uh, and C you're pushing too hard. A properly s uh sharpened slicer should not you shouldn't have to push on it at all. Uh and part of that is having very good sharp blades. And prior to the Hobart Model 3000, the slicer that I always recommended was the Berserba SE12 because it had a really good blade and pretty solid um a pretty solid uh carriage mechanism.
+
+[7:18] Uh is but you know nowadays I recommend the Hobart, but you're gonna be able to get the Bazerba a lot cheaper than you're gonna be able to get the Hobart 3000 and the Bazerba is a great machine. It just doesn't clean uh quite as easily. The uh you might be able to get the berserba used I haven't priced one in a long time but it's gonna be a lot cheaper than the than the 3000. The 3000 though is primo. In Europe they actually use something called a vertical slicer.
+
+[7:41] And a vertical slicer is great because instead of using gravity to force the product into the blade, the the product just sits like it normally would and the carriage literally moves and feeds the uh stuff in slice by slice. And these make perfect slices again and again and actually the first slicers that were made by uh you know Burkle Van Burkel back in you know when he invented the meat slicer were vertical slicers and in Europe they continue to be popular and they make fantastic slice quality. But for some reason or other we tend not to use them in uh in the US. I don't know if you wrote down uh vacuum machine but if you I can't remember if yeah vacuum sealer if you're gonna get a vacuum sealer I mean uh go for one you can get a good price on if you're gonna get a smaller one I like the mini packs because they have a bigger chamber size. Just look at the chamber size.
+
+[8:32] I mean uh all of the hooha programming and stuff I don't know that you're gonna use it that much in your application but get one with a big chamber size. The mini pack and the smaller units especially have a good chamber size and their price uh seems to be okay. For catering I would stay away from any of like the really cheap ones because they're gonna break when you least want them to break. Get one with a with a with a the actual good German or equivalent to the German, which is um the name's out of my head. Oh my gosh.
+
+[8:55] I I speak about it all the time. The name of the pump uh starts with a B. Anyway, uh the um the pump in that is what's serious, and you gotta make sure you get the good hardcore German uh vacuum pump, oil based pump in that, otherwise you're gonna be asking for problems. Um get those. Uh make sure you have a vita prep or two.
+
+[9:16] Um and that's really you know, all the really other super high tech stuff. I mean, it's kind of like gilding the lily. You know what I mean? Mean like all the other stuff. I mean, that the the core stuff I just told you is the basis of almost everything that we use, with the exception of liquid nitrogen.
+
+[9:31] Get yourself a liquid nitrogen doer. Did I mention that? Get a liquid nitrogen doer. You're not gonna regret having liquid nitrogen. All right.
+
+[9:40] Stuck in grandma. Here we get over the microphone so people can hear you. So apparently, as we uh well, don't push my microphone away. You could climb over, go under anything other than pushing the microphone away from me while you're talking. She does not know where her body is in space, by the way.
+
+[9:54] Like the stasha has no idea where her body is within the space around her. So I'm not gonna blame her. Like I don't think she literally did that on purpose. Same way that she doesn't understand where doors are when she slams them in your face, which is a constant thing that Nastasha. Yeah, you slam.
+
+[10:09] You walk through doors and then like look like you're gonna hold them open for people and then slam them on their faces or on bicycles and stuff because you don't really pay attention to people or the world around you as you're walking. Wow. Well, I was stuck in the Grand Street station, and no one could find Phil Bravo this morning. So I was no one knows who Phil Bravo is. No one knows who Phil Bravo is.
+
+[10:26] You've talked about him before. Oh, who's Phil Bravo? He's a friend of mine, and he didn't go to work today. So and he he was last scene with me. Wow, well, that's so did you kill him?
+
+[10:37] No. No, I he was actually he was with Tristan all night. Uh Phil Bravo is very cheap, man, so I'm sure he followed wherever the uh liquor was cheapest. By the way, for those of you not hanging out in New York right now, it's James Beard kind of week, and everyone's going out crazy partying except for me. I was home uh asleep with my family last night.
+
+[10:53] I was home by midnight. Yeah? So Phil went out with Tristan until it got. I heard Harold McGee was partying like a rock star last night with Daniel Patterson and Chris Constantino. Three of our good friends uh out there uh hanging out, having fun.
+
+[11:05] Oh, speaking of James Beard, congratulations to uh Tozy, Christian Tozy, yeah. Our our good buddy went won that PDT. Uh, you know, great bar, won uh best bar. Who else won? Do you remember Daniel Hum won?
+
+[11:18] Yeah. I'm sorry for all of our friends who were up for awards that did not win, but congratulations out to those people who did. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right?
+
+[11:25] Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh so great how long were you sitting at the Grand Street station? It was stopped for like 15 minutes. I was gonna be right on time, and it was we were stopped there with the doors open, and I was like, could I walk from here?
+
+[11:37] But then you know that minute when you're like, what if we go right now? I I do know that minute. Yeah, I know that minute. It's like, but you always get burnt by that minute. There's nothing worse than sitting in mass transit, not being able to control your destiny, thinking at any minute this sucker might move again.
+
+[11:54] And you with the door with the door was open and every second every second you got to decide whether yeah, every minute that and then it was one of those electronic things. So they just said train traffic, ahead. I was in the Grand Central the other day on Sunday, going to the Bronx Zoo, which by the way is not an eating zoo. You don't get to eat any of the animals that are at the Bronx Zoo. My kids were joking about that as we were there.
+
+[12:13] Anyways, the uh when you're the trains were not running out of Grand Central, the whole thing was shut down. It was incredibly calm. No one was flipping out, no one was anything. I've never seen Grand Central that calm. Metro North train?
+
+[12:23] Metro North trains, all of them shut down for like two and a half hours. Whoa. The only person not calm was my son liquor. Freaking out. Okay.
+
+[12:30] Uh question, another question from last week. Don writes it about soda. You may remember that I met you at the BAR, that's Beverage Alcohol Resource School in September at the Astor Center. Uh I'm in the planning phase to open a bar, and sodas slash carbonation has me uh at a conundrum. I don't want soda guns.
+
+[12:46] I wouldn't mind bottles, but that's a very high cost and a storage problem. I love the look and ease of ISI soda bottles, but the cost of chargers is stratipheric. I like the work you've done with carbonation systems using the compressor and plastic bottles, but how practical are they in a working bar? It seems to make a huge sticky mess pretty quick. What is Booker and Dax doing for carbonated beverages?
+
+[13:03] On a related note, I tried to carbonate a Nagroni using the ISI soda bottle, and I just got a glass of foam. What can I do to prevent that? Love the show, Don. Okay, carbonation in a nutshell. The only thing that's really currently available on the market right now that does really good carbonation, my level of carbonation, what I think is an acceptable level of carbonation, is um is using soda bottles with the uh carbonator cap manufactured by the Liquid Bread Corporation coming out of a five or twenty pound CO2 tank.
+
+[13:33] You need to pre-chill it much colder than refrigerator temperatures, right? Like until it's almost frozen. And then you need to uh you need to carbonate it three times before service. Uh a one liter bottle is what I recommend. A one liter bottle will hold roughly five pours of drink, and so you do a bunch beforehand and they and they get going.
+
+[13:55] The reason that you're foaming is several fold. One, you probably don't have enough water in it, right? The first mistake people are making when they're doing uh drinks is to um is to not add enough water to the carbonated drink. They they treat it like you'll make a drink by shaking, which isn't actually shaking, might make a drink cold enough to carbonate. In fact, shaking will make a drink that's kind of barely cold enough to carbonate.
+
+[14:19] The problem is shaking a drink will make a drink that's too alcoholic to be really successful over the long term as a carbonated drink. What do I mean by this? If you take a drink, a strike uh like Negroni, first of all, instead of stirring the Negroni, if you're gonna carbonate it, you must shake it. Because stirred Negroni, A, is nowhere near cold enough to carbonate properly. You're gonna foam all over the place.
+
+[14:38] And B, it's nowhere near diluted enough to carbonate properly. So the first thing you're gonna have to do when you when you make a Negroni carbonated is to shake it. Then you're gonna uh it's still gonna be too alcoholic and it will taste good for the first sips, but the problem is is that you can't have like three, two or three of those because it's gonna get not just because it's gonna mess you up, but because it's going to be uh somewhat cloying over time. If you just take that Negroni that you made that way, and just as the test, uh, and you know, I was talking to Tobichini about this, and he was saying the same thing. It's like add a little bit of soda water to that and see how much more kind of delicious and refreshing it is, just lightening it a little bit.
+
+[15:14] If you are gonna make uh a carbonated drink, I'll tell you what our ratios are at the bar. Our ratios for a drink for a five-ounce uh pour, uh, our ratios are 1.75 ounces of strong, that's of straight liquor, and 3.25 ounces of uh of water or a week, like including like simple syrup and juice and all that. And everyone's like, oh my god, that's so equal. Listen, it's not. I've done tests again and again and again and again and again and again and again, and those ratios are the ratios that make, in my opinion, a good drink.
+
+[15:51] If you have more alcohol than that, you need to get it ridiculously cold to carbonate it properly, and you're really gonna put people on the floor, right? I mean, I've done straight uh you know, 40% liquor carbonated stuff before, but they have to be basically minus uh minus 18 Celsius to work properly. Uh they don't balance well, and you can't have that very many of them, and they hit people like a ton of bricks. You're much better using the ratios that uh I just told you, getting it cold till it's almost frozen and and and doing it. The way we do it at the bar is I have a very special refrigerator, uh the Randall FX, right?
+
+[16:29] Uh, and what it can maintain very, very accurate temperatures. So I set that thing to be 23 Fahrenheit, 22, 23 Fahrenheit, which is what I think is the good place between 20 and 23 Fahrenheit, which is where I think that carbonated drinks should be. Uh, I think it's like twenty-three is what we said it at. And then I let them chill in there until they're chilled, a couple hours. Uh, and then before service, I carbonate them and they stay in there and I keep refluffing it after I do every one.
+
+[16:55] The the ISI chargers is gonna cost you too much, it's not gonna work out. Uh most people's carbonated drinks, I think are only very lightly carbonated compared to what kind of I want, and one of the reasons it is because they foam too much. It's because their drinks aren't cold enough, or they're putting it through a keg system, which causes a lot of foaming. Alcohol in general foams a lot, uh, and so you're kind of you know barking up a hard tree. Plus, you need to carbonate alcohol more than you carbonate water for the same sensation of carbonation.
+
+[17:24] So not only does alcohol foam more, but um it also needs to be carbonated higher, so you get double the foam, and so everything seems very, very foamy. Your solutions are reduce the alcohol proportion slightly and uh chill it much more than you're chilling it now. But to me, bottles are the way to go in a bar until we finish our system and get it done right, right? Right. Which I'm working on right now.
+
+[17:45] I just ordered I built one that works, and I'm building another one that works, which hopefully we're gonna take to Japan with us. Mm-hmm. You want to bring that to Japan? Because we need another thing that can break when we go somewhere, right? Yeah.
+
+[17:54] Right? Yeah. Nothing's better than stuff that breaks. You like breaking stuff? Yes.
+
+[17:58] It's awesome. Awesome. Okay. Uh that answered that show that question, right? Alright, why don't we take our first commercial break and uh come back with some more questions?
+
+[18:07] No hour rock the hot party at the drop of a hat. Yeah, I need a bite now with the Luna back. A lot of people maybe told you that they hear me rock the mind. Maybe staring at the radio, staying up all night. Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Markets.
+
+[18:21] Whether you are cooking for one or for a craft. Fairway market literally has everything you need for a fantastic meal. But if you don't feel like cooking, no worries. They cater. Check out Fairway Market.com for more information.
+
+[18:34] And be sure to check the new blog on our plate for weekly specials, health tips, and recipes. It's the joy. That's a baseline right there, huh? Oh, yeah, but it says that's your homage to MCA, huh? Yeah.
+
+[18:58] You know, I didn't even know. It sucks. I didn't even know that he died until a couple days afterwards. But that's the end of an era, right? Yeah, indeed.
+
+[19:06] Uh, and uh an interesting tidbit there is a Tibetan doctor advised him to go vegan in uh the last month or so. Yeah. So who so okay? What's the meaning of that? I'm just putting that out there.
+
+[19:20] I know. Well, you know, they were saying when Steve Jobs passed that uh he was he was vegan stubbornly, and and then it may have not been the best idea. Really? But look, it it turns out that uh turns out that we all die eventually. Like this is one of those things that happens.
+
+[19:34] Like regardless of whether you eat vegan or not, turns out you're gonna die. Uh it's one of the hard things to kind of like kind of get a handle on, but it's true. Uh and uh uh one of the things that bothers me is uh any sort of health claim related to uh diet. While it's true that I think I could construct pretty unhealthy diets out of any sort of uh uh food taste or food thing, like I could construct an incredibly unhealthy vegan diet. I could construct a healthy vegan diet.
+
+[20:05] I could construct an incredibly unhealthy meat-based diet, I could construct a healthy one. I mean, in other words, it's like it's uh you know, the idea that you could I mean, first of all, when you're really sick, uh I know I would be grasping at anything to try and make myself uh be better, but my semi-healthy self telling myself now in the future is uh first of all, when you're sick, it's already too too dang late. I I'd like to hear someone not too dang late. I mean, obviously if you have a long-term chronic thing, you change your habits, you get better, right? I mean uh I just I I'm very uh I don't like in general the notion of people selling dietary cures to be able to do that.
+
+[20:45] Yeah, that was my point kind of too. Yeah. I mean, I'd I would love to hear someone call in and tell me that I'm the world's biggest jerk off for saying that, but in general, uh my philosophy, not backed by science, but my philosophy is that uh the healthiest diet is to eat a wide variety of uh interesting foods in moderation that make you happy and sated. Mm-hmm. Yeah?
+
+[21:10] Yeah. Now, if you're happy and sated, uh eating vegan because you don't want to take in animal products, then you should eat vegan, right? Yeah. You know? Um speaking of which, go on the uh Amazon and look up uh Michael uh Natkin's book.
+
+[21:26] I'm curious to see how how it's how it's doing. Hopefully doing quite well. We'll give you a follow-up on the thing. Uh we talked about his book last week and uh his uh kind of slap across our face for um talking about uh people's dietary choices. Okay.
+
+[21:40] Uh long time listener Ken Ing Ken Ingber writes in uh two things. One, he wrote uh an article about a coffee trip that he took to um you know New York. Uh we read it. We couldn't read it online, uh, you know, on the air because it, you know, it was long, right? Uh, but apparently he's gonna get it published in Coffee Geek, maybe, which is nice.
+
+[21:58] Yeah. Right? But uh just to give you a preview in case it comes out on there, he had enough shots of espresso during a day to to basically turn him into a Christmas chihuahua. Just like, you know, shaking, caffeinated. I'm sure he did.
+
+[22:11] I mean I didn't see him afterwards, but I'm assuming I know if I had that much caffeine in me, it would be uh a nightmare. And I'm a very caffeinated fellow. Okay. Uh Ken Right in. I'm making a French dinner this week, and of course it's two weekends ago, so we missed it.
+
+[22:24] I'm making a French dinner this weekend. I wanted to end with good humor. Good humor is a pun in this case. Uh, in particular, my dessert will be a creamsicle brulee, uh, creme boulet with blood orange foam. I aspire to get my guests weeping a la alinea over their childhood memories of a good humor creamsicle, but I will settle for an appreciative groan.
+
+[22:39] So, how do I make uh foam with juice? I combine the juice with li liquid less than and put it in my espresso milk frother. I got no foam and lecithin did not mix with the juice, but instead stuck to the spring coil frothing device and it's next to impossible to clean. Liquid lecithin is nasty. Nat lessanthan in general is pretty nasty.
+
+[22:55] I only I very rarely use lethicin, by the way. Have you ever seen me use it? No. No, I don't use it. I imagine Modernist Pantry has some magic powder, but the dinner is Saturday, so I do have a lot of time.
+
+[23:04] I have agar agar in the house, but don't think that's suitable. Can I just use a little egg white and live the guests use uh ask if I'm using raw eggs? Uh uh follow up to that. Cancel my request on the foam unless you find it interesting. Uh I was unsuccessful using the lecithin uh despite multiple assurances on the internet.
+
+[23:21] I'm throwing it away, I'm throwing it away as it is not pleasant to work with. It is as pleasant as roofing tar. Uh I used egg white and gelatin, uh, the foamer, hot and cold in immersion blender, and had some success with gelatin, uh, but it was a lot of fuss and uh didn't do it because it was a pain in the butt. Okay. Uh I assume something like VersaWhip would work.
+
+[23:37] As I said, I did not have time to order from Modernist Pantry oh well. Well, Ken, you know Modernist Pantry has quick shipping to anyone in the world. In fact, someone else wrote in, we'll get to it later, basically saying that it was quick, but um VersaWhip, you're quite white, right? Versaw whip is uh what you should probably use for that. Uh and uh Ebon Freeman, our friend Ebon Freeman, uh had a blood and sand recipe with an orange foam on top that was in fact made with uh versa whip.
+
+[24:02] And uh his recipe is 200 grams of orange juice and 2.5 grams of versa whip. Uh he doesn't say what kind of versa whip because that's like Ebon, he just won't tell you what kind. You know what I mean? Thanks, Ebon. Anyway, uh 2.5 grams of VersaWhip, which is a lot of Vers Whip.
+
+[24:18] It's like a you know, it's a lot, right? Uh it's over a percent. In general, I try to add gums in in the percent or less range, but in this case I don't think it matters because it's gonna be whipped up. And a half gram of Xanthan gum. And the Xanthan is there to provide body to it and to hold once it whips up.
+
+[24:33] The VersaWhip's a whipping agent, but the VersaWhip's not gonna hold the foam, right? The Xanthan is there to hold the foam uh uh after the Versawhip whips it up. Okay? And then using a immersion blender with a whisk attachment to whip it into a foam and laid it all on top. Another thing you can do that's incredibly simple and doesn't require ordering anything online and creates a very dense orangey, orangey foam.
+
+[24:56] It's you're gonna want to uh acid it acidify it a little bit. So orange plus a little bit of uh of lemon to make it uh you know more like a sour orange, right? Set that into an agar gel, pretty stiff, like 0.8 to 1% agar gel. Blend it in a blender, now you have a fluid gel. If you mix that with straight cream in a whipper in an ISI whipper, uh when you squirt it out, you get a dense, dense foam, and the agar fluid gel uh stops the cream from breaking, and you actually can have the a really dense creamsicle like fluid gel, and we've done that many times, and that's my favorite kind of citrus foam because it has that awesome mouthfeel of whipped cream, which you can't beat.
+
+[25:39] You can't beat the mouthfeel of whipped cream, right? Mm-hmm. In fact, it's even denser than whipped cream. It's like dense and creamy, but also orangey and acidic without breaking. And that'll hold for a while.
+
+[25:49] So next time you do it, or if anyone wants to do it, like I think that's a good uh that's a good way to do it, right? Yes. Yes, Nash is like, yeah, I don't really care. I don't care. No, so this his book, Michael Natkin's book, got 10 five-star reviews.
+
+[26:03] Wow. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is beautiful. So maybe we should buy it. How much is it?
+
+[26:07] 1629. 1629 Prime on Amazon. You know what? I'll I'll make sure we book him for one of the other shows where we do more uh, you know, authors of books and stuff like that. And he used to be a an engineer on the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.
+
+[26:20] What? Whoa. What do you mean? Where is it? He was a software engineer making dinosaurs for Jurassic Park.
+
+[26:28] That's Baller. Yeah. You know, my wife was saying, should we let the kids watch the Jurassic Park or is it too damn scary? I think it's the guy gets eaten. Yeah, that's the postman from Seinfeld gets eaten.
+
+[26:39] Right. I was pretty young when I saw it, and it was pretty awesome though. Well, how young is young? I think I must have been like s I'll have to look it up. I'll actually go look up the release date.
+
+[26:48] Yeah. Yeah, anyway, so uh everyone should go out and buy his book. We're gonna buy a copy of the book, and uh Jack's gonna try to get him booked onto a show. Yeah, and let's have him build it down. I was seven years old, sorry.
+
+[26:59] I was seven. Seven? Man, I was like eighty-five when that movie came out. Okay. Uh Chip writes in regarding circulators.
+
+[27:06] Uh he misses the hammer and Dave and Jack, but does not miss Carlos. Wow. Really? Yeah. Hardcore.
+
+[27:14] Man, I like a guy who respects the loyalty. Miss the hammer, like Mr. or Mrs. Oh, maybe Miss the Hammer and Dave. Yeah.
+
+[27:23] And Jack, but not Carlos. He does say but not Carlos, but he's messed up. He's not saying hello. Or he's not missing. Anyway, anyway.
+
+[27:29] Alright, regardless. Uh he says, I know you're not the biggest proponent of DIY thermal circulators, but my wife won't let me drop a G on one yet. So I had to do my best. I'm familiar with this problem, Chip. Uh I made the version on Seattle Food Geek a while back, but quickly found that the pump being submerged was the slash a problem.
+
+[27:46] Well, I was cooking potatoes, uh I guess it went south on him when we was cooking potatoes for the modernist cuisine yuckey recipe. So I wanted to move it out of the water. Finding a pump that would A handle the heat and B would be self priming was a bit of a challenge. But if there is a need, it is sold on eBay. So I found one there.
+
+[28:02] That's that's fact. There's almost every dang thing on eBay. Almost, almost every dang thing on eBay. I used an uh an SSR, which is a solid state relay for all you folks out there. By the way, in case you're the person who listens to our show doesn't know what a circulator is.
+
+[28:14] Uh it's uh a device that uh keeps water usually or any other liquid, but with a DIY, definitely only use water and try to keep it clean. Uh uh at a very precise temperature, which is invaluable for doing kind of modern low temperature cooking, which is you know, I I I use it all the time. They're about 800 bucks now uh at the uh at JB Prince or at the William Sonoma. Um and so a lot of people have been making their own. Uh by the way, uh I am not against DIY uh circulators.
+
+[28:46] In fact, I applaud anyone that wants to build something themselves. It's just usually you end up with something where you've spent a lot of hours building it and it's not quite as functional. I think there's so many people working on the DIY circulators that I'm pretty sure they're pretty good by now. But he's quite right. The main problem is the the pump.
+
+[29:04] Uh let me go on to keep on going. Uh I also uh this is chip again. I also had the uh the case for it, laser cut on Pinocco.com. Pinocco.com is pretty cool. You just send them like the pictures and they can laser cut stuff and they ship it back to you.
+
+[29:17] Uh so it took a little more, so it looks a little more like a retail product. I still need to address some of the visual issues with it, but what is it works for now? I like what is Victoria says that. Uh our our our uh our former enter works with us a lot. Anyway, uh anyway, I thought I'd share.
+
+[29:30] Thanks for the great show. Modernist Pantry does have fast chipping. Thanks, Chip. I looked at uh at Chip's Circulator. I don't know if it's available online.
+
+[29:36] Damn thing does look pretty good. Uh, one thing I'm gonna say: if you're gonna build a circulator, the main parts are a controller. Controllers can now be had for $30 or less uh in that range on eBay and at Auburn Instruments. Uh some people buy controllers with relays in them. I don't recommend using a regular relay because it's another failure point that I don't enjoy having.
+
+[29:56] I don't enjoy failure points. Uh I use a solid state relay, which he uses. They're not that expensive. They can be had for very cheap at this point. Um, and a an immersion heater, which you can basically crib from almost anything.
+
+[30:08] A you know, a hot water heater, whatever. I don't know what these guys are using, DIY. A temperature sensor, again, only a several dollar problem now. And then the case, that's the hard part, and the pump. Pumps break a lot.
+
+[30:20] And real circulators basically uh have a long shaft, and they just sit there spinning a stainless steel blade to do the pumping, and it ends up being good over the long term. I've had most of my plastic uh in and out pumps like the one you're using here fail over time, but uh, you know, good luck with it. It looks like a good job. Looks like you did a good job, right? Yeah.
+
+[30:39] Yep. You want to take one more commercial break? Let's take another commercial break. Call your questions. 27184972128.
+
+[30:44] That's 784972128! Hey! Hey ladies in the place of calling out to you! I never was a city kid, true. Talk pushman on the foolery!
+
+[31:13] Women on TV with the heavy tough rulery. We're throwing out just like critics. And I'm always not looking for the female cut. I'm ready! I'm feeling on time, you might feel it.
+
+[31:32] Then I can crack some back up on ceiling. Such is sucked to me the waste that I'm doing. I'm talking to the girl, telling her I'm well going. She's talking to the crib, crib it to the city. I'm telling her every line that you know that I never did.
+
+[31:44] Ladies! Nice one, Jack. Nice one. Uh Nastasha, for those of you that don't know, likes to just kind of like make weird judgments about things. Decided.
+
+[32:02] Parrots are like this too, by the way. Just decide does not like uh my shirt. Right? Uh and the reason is I'm wearing one of my favorite shirts, which is a hunting shirt. It's Blaze Orange.
+
+[32:14] And her opinion is that it makes me look like a uh prison uh work gang. Who the reason prisoners wear orange is the same reason hunters wear orange is to be seen easily. The hunters do it so they don't get shot, and the prisoners do it so that they can get shot if they try to escape. See, slightly different. But uh, none of that has anything to do with my shirt, which uh I'm not neither hunting nor hopefully going to prison today.
+
+[32:39] So uh I don't really understand uh Nastash's problem with it. Anyway. Derek Bodkin writes in uh about uh a popcorn machine. Dave and Co. recently I learned about Chinese popcorn in uh Parenz.
+
+[32:53] Uh not Prince, quotes. Why I say Prince, I'm a quotes. Uh apparently a method where colonels are seal kernels are sealed in a container and superheated, then allowed to explosively decompress, popping them all at once. Here is a link. And you look on like look for explosively awesome on the internet's uh and boing boing and whatnot.
+
+[33:11] In your humble opinions, is it possible to hack together a setup to do this in a home kitchen? Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome, Derek Botkin. Okay. You have asked a question uh that I actually do know something about because I actually have tried to do this at home before many, many, many years ago. Like uh before I had kids, so it's more than 10 years ago, probably 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
+
+[33:33] Um so I have been interested in a long time for uh in a piece of equipment called a puffing gun. Now, when uh when they were inventing breakfast cereals uh at the beginning of the 20th century, and end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century, and you know, in that range uh was when all of the really butt-kicking breakfast cereal concepts were invented, except one. Except one. So uh flakes were invented back then, and the way they were made is with a giant oversized basically pasta machine where you like you temper out uh actual whole kernels and you feed them through these incredibly, they're cooled and they're incredibly massive uh and sturdy roll rollers, and it just boop smashes them into flakes, and the flakes shoot out onto uh onto a mat, and that's it, they're done. That was invented back then.
+
+[34:23] The shredder to make shredded wheat was invented back then, and that's basically the same concept, but the roller has ridges in it, so it extrudes them into shredded wheat shapes, right? Um also uh at that time was invented the puffing gun. And the puffing gun, right, is an amazing piece of equipment where what you do is so corn you can pop normally. There's really no need to do this with popcorn because corn, you can pop, you know what I mean? But you can't pop wheat, uh, and you can't pop rice the same way.
+
+[34:55] You can puff it by frying, but you can't puff it the same way popcorn does. And the reason is is that the uh the outside, the skin of the popcorn, is so uh it seals in the water so well that when you're uh heating it in oil, water pressure can build up on the inside of the kernel in the endosperm to the point where it explosively decompresses and you get popcorn, right? That's what's happening. When you do wheat, it's very hard to do regular wheat because uh the moisture leaks out of the uh out of the outside, right? Because it's not as uh hard, the outside's not as like no leak proof.
+
+[35:31] And so it won't pop explosively the same way that uh popcorn will. So the solution to this, right? Same with rice, the solution to this is to heat these uh these items under a lot of pressure. What's a lot of pressure? Uh like 175 psi in that range because they're trying to get it up to the same temperatures that you would get when you're frying popcorn, like 360, three in that range, 350 Fahrenheit, 360 Fahrenheit, around there, right?
+
+[35:59] And so you start with uh grain that has the proper amount of moisture in it, which I forget what that is, I can go look it up. It's something like 10% or something in that range, right? You then seal it, you heat it under a massive amount of pressure, and what that means is is that the water inside is uh hot, right? And it's also under pressure so it won't boil. Then you release the pressure very suddenly, and all of a sudden all that water expands all at once and it pops.
+
+[36:27] It doesn't need the outside of the grain to hold the moisture in the way that you would uh with regular popcorn. Uh so the unit that you pointed to on the video that the guy is using on the street corner, I would not walk anywhere near that sucker. That sucker was so freaking ghetto, that thing could blow up at any second. I happen to know that when he's puffing that stuff, it's under at least 150 PSI, probably higher, right? So you don't want to and basically what you do is is he literally has uh a like a like a like what looks like a homemade boiler that he's spinning, and that's good because you need to you know get the heat evenly transferred throughout it, right?
+
+[37:06] So it's spinning over a fire that he has stoked with coal and with like what looks like a modified hairdryer, right? And and what looks like a freaking vice grip holding the whole damn thing together, right? He looked like happy. He looked happy because he's not dead. Every second that he works and he's not dead, he's happy.
+
+[37:25] Then he sticks it into uh you know this what looks like a long windsock, which was incredibly dirty by the way. I don't know that I'd but I mean it was incredibly dirty. Uh and then puts a stick in, pulls the pin, bam, the thing blows up. Now maybe this thing is actually manufactured by somebody to some sort of specifications, but the idea of heating something over an open fire with no protection that looks homemade to 170 PSI, 150, 170 PSI, and then explosively decompressing it time after time outside, it uh freaks me out. Put it that way.
+
+[38:00] So, how did I attempt to do this? I bought uh some pipes that were rated to 150 uh PSI or higher. Actually, I got like an 80, 80 um schedule 80, which was rate rated higher than 150 PSI, uh made out of steel. I uh put them all together uh with uh heater, water heater on the inside, which was one of the weak points, and an overpressure valve so that it wouldn't go above the pressure that I wanted to, and a thermometer, all done with pipes, whether regular pipes. Uh filled it with uh corn, which is my first test because I was trying to I was I was working on a on a um on doing a nuclear explosion uh out of candy and popcorn, and so I was trying to actually do a puffing gun thing for that.
+
+[38:41] Uh and uh the problem was is that the piping system that I had didn't seal properly and so I was getting venting and steam out. I did get it up to like 120 psi before I and I literally like like I said, I used vice grips with like a with a pull string to pull it, and uh I what I successfully did was spray burning hot popcorn kernels all over my all over my house. I didn't actually I popped maybe four or five of them, but I didn't get it to be done the way uh the way you'd want. And I think my main problem was is I tried to have a little bit of water medium in there to heat it. I tried heating it internally instead of having an external fire with rotation, which is the way that it's always done, is external heat and agitation.
+
+[39:24] Uh and the piping system, it was just hard to get it to seal very well, that thick pipe, because it was like two-inch pipe. It was hard to get it to seal accurately at those high, high temperatures because uh the I used Teflon tape, but it I don't know, it just didn't work. So uh I'm gonna build one eventually because for the Museum of Food and Drink cereal exhibition, we're gonna have uh a cereal exhibit in the Museum of Food and Drink, which we're working on now. We have our first we have our well, we have a new full-time uh employee at the Museum of Food and Drink, even though he's not getting paid. So he's not an employee, I guess, because he's not getting paid.
+
+[39:55] But Peter Kim, formerly one of our lawyers uh at uh Devil Boysm and Big Plympton. Uh big Plumpton. Anyway, so like they uh uh he quit being a lawyer. He believes in the museum project so much he quit being a lawyer and he is now working in the museum full time, which we're very, very excited about. Uh so the museum will have one.
+
+[40:14] There are small commercial machines that that are not quite so uh wonky in Korea that actually make puffed rice cakes, alimine newt. And I forget the name of them, but it's something like like bing like bing bjing the noise of the actual thing working is what it is in Korean, but I don't know what the noise is, so I can't tell you what it is. But you could go look that up. Uh the third and uh and uh the third kind of uh machine, by the way, for cereal, uh and it it was the one that was not invented early on in the game is the twin screw extruder, which basically was a piece of equipment that was invented for the plastics industry, and that's how they make Captain Crunch uh and all things like that. They basically have a screw under enormous pressure that takes in grains uh or whatever, under enormous pressure, and then it heats up the pressure and the and the actual screw mechanism of putting it through the thing heats it up so that when it comes out of a dye at the end, much like a pasta dye, like a pasta extruder, but it's under such heat and pressure that when it comes out the end, it whoop puffs up into Captain Crunch or Kicks or whatever, and that's how they make all of those cereals.
+
+[41:22] And so we're gonna have one of those at the exhibit too, because that's pretty badass, right? It is. Yeah, I've always wanted one of those. I went to uh I went to visit Cornell years ago and they let me look at theirs. They have small pilot ones.
+
+[41:34] Shouldn't we get one? Yeah, we should. Right? Let's get Peter on that. Let's get Peter on that son of a gun.
+
+[41:38] Right? But we want a big one, like that's the thing. Like, if we got anyone out there who has used cereal equipment, I called up the Pure Manufacturing Corporation, by the way, is the corporation that used to make all the old puffing guns. They no longer use uh those puffing guns um in commercially in the US. They've moved to a system called a continuous puffer.
+
+[41:55] That's a batch puffing thing. Uh and you know, but they've moved to continuous puffers, and so all the old ones get sent back refurbed, and now most of them are are used in factories in Mexico. So I wasn't able to locate someone with an old uh puffing gun that wanted to donate it to the museum. So if anyone out there uh can get their hands on an old Puritan manufacturing uh corporation puffing gun, the museum would love. And we are now 501c3, right?
+
+[42:21] We're still pending. We're still pending. We're still pending, but believe me, we're gonna get that 501c3. So you'll be able to write off that Puritan puffing gun when you donate it to the museum, and the little kids are gonna be so happy when we're exploding cereal in front of their parents. Imagine that.
+
+[42:34] Like 10, 9, 8, well, all the way down to one. Boom! And like cereal spraying everywhere, goggles and bowls, and we're gonna have like better than the um what was that store in Times Square, your kids liked? Oh, which one? Uh Pop-Tart.
+
+[42:47] Oh, the Pop-Tart Pop-Up? The Pop-Tart pop-up. They weren't making Pop Tarts. Here's the thing. No, they weren't making it.
+
+[42:53] Yeah, no, they had these machines that you could make pick your own pack and it would do it, but it's not like I mean, and they charged a lot. Charged a lot. All right. Finally, uh in from uh Elliot Papanot writes in, uh, longtime listener. Uh Dave, Nastasha, and Jack.
+
+[43:11] What book, and he I got this over Twitter too, actually. Cool. I'm on the Twitter now, by the way. You know, if people keep addressing me in these questions, I'm gonna have to try to answer one of them. Well, you mean try, Jack, don't try.
+
+[43:20] What do you mean, don't try? What the hell's that? Thanks. Nastash is so rough. By the way, by the way, by the way, before I get into this question, uh, I'm gonna run, you know, a minute late, like I always do, or three or four.
+
+[43:32] But like uh, so I say to Nesta Nastasha, like she she says that she never answers questions here when I ask her because I don't give her the time to answer. I think okay. What do you mean? Is that what you n is that not what you say to me? I I just remember what David Chang's explanation.
+
+[43:53] We'll get into that in a second. Okay. We'll get into that in a second. My point is we're on the radio. It's not like Nastasha wants me to ask her a question and then pause for like 35, 40 seconds and wait for an answer.
+
+[43:59] And I'm like, you know, we're on the radio. It's not like at the dinner table where like, you know, they can see the thoughtful pause. You know? You know what I'm saying? So she she says I don't give uh enough uh time.
+
+[44:15] And she's referring to another time when Dave Chang was laughing at me. Nastasha, this is Nastasha's favorite comment of all times. It is. Is it basically uh and he's talking about like a uh uh a demo I was doing with McGee where I will ask a question, then answer it, ask a question, then answer it without letting the other person. Well he's like, Harold, what color is the sky today?
+
+[44:34] And Harold's like Well I and David's like, it's blue, it's blue. I'm not first of all, I'm not like that. I'm not like that. No, I guess. I'm not uh whatever.
+
+[44:43] We can have more more discussions about this later. But the final question in what book do you recommend about Alliums? I just ordered Having Your Ramps and Eating Them Too by Glenn Facmeyer Jr. Hopefully it does not suck. Now, first of all, I think Facmire is an amazing name.
+
+[44:59] Do you love that name? I like it. Facmeyer. 'Cause it sounds like you're mired in facts. Like like you don't even like facts, but like you're stuck in 'like quicksand, you can't get out.
+
+[45:08] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I like that. But you want to talk about how much you have we already talked about how much you hate ramps on the on the on the show? Yeah, we have.
+
+[45:14] We have. Yeah? I think they're good. I don't like people's like of them. See, this is classic Nastasha here.
+
+[45:20] The actual product is good, but the people the fact that people like them is no good, and therefore she does not like them or does not want to see them. Same is true with weather. Uh she doesn't like good weather. What? You feel the same about weather.
+
+[45:34] No, no, I'm a little bit. No, I but I still like the you do not like weather, good weather, because other people like it. Because they get overly happy about it. Like with ramps. Overly happy.
+
+[45:47] Crazy. Okay. I feel you on the ramps thing. Thank you, Jack. Well, of course, you work in Rampland.
+
+[45:53] We're here at Roberta's. Like Roberta's is like, you know, happy feely, forage, growths. Yeah. Okay. Hopefully, Senor Fackmeyer's book on ramps does not suck.
+
+[46:06] Uh, with ramp season ending and green garlic and scape season beginning. Can you talk about some things uh to do with alliums, nitro muddling maybe? Uh, and uh by the way, he also has a separate question which I'll answer, which is what are some good books on uh alliums? I'm also having uh do you understand what this is? Is that a hoe?
+
+[46:24] It's like a oh, he's also having a really nice hoe made by red pig uh is that what do you call that? A hoe? Some sort of garden implement there made by uh red pig tools for my mom for Mother's Day. Hopefully your mom doesn't. Of course your mom doesn't listen to the show, but it looks like a very nice thing.
+
+[46:37] I'm sure she'll be very happy. Have you ever considered using Twitter or Facebook for questions for the show? Well, I did get from you this question, so I am gonna answer uh both parts of it. On I don't own any books on onions exclusively. I own two books on garlic that address onions somewhat, uh, and I'll talk about uh both of them.
+
+[46:55] The one I've spoken about on this show before, which is um uh it's called uh Garlic and Other Alliums by uh Eric Block, and it is kind of it's supposed to be a compendium of lore and science and all this, but it's it has some of the lore and a lot of the history and a lot of the bibliography on garlic. Uh but the science is fairly in-depth, and it serves really kind of as a review from time immemorial of the science behind the chemistry of alliums, which is quite complex, and some stuff on on like its cookery and its use, but it's strongest on the science and on taxonomy and things like that for garlic and other alliums, onions and whatnot. Uh it's dense, right? Uh the other book I have is called The Complete Book of Garlic, A Guide for Gardeners, Growers and Serious Cooks by Ted Jordan Meredith. And that book is uh fantastic and you had mentioned on the Twitter that uh you were interested in books that talked about cultivation.
+
+[47:55] And that book is a nice book to read. It depressed me because I don't have the ability to grow garlic. I don't have the ability to grow anything uh where I live because I don't get light. I can't even have a window box because I don't really get light in my apartment. Nastasha has a plot of land.
+
+[48:06] I do. Where's that second? 48th Street. It's in a community garden. They gave me another plot because they were so impressed with my plot.
+
+[48:13] Yeah, or no one else wanted it. I guess I w we'll choose to think that it's because you did such a good job. They told me I did a really good job. But you had that Latvian lady tell you that your job sucked. That was when it was all seedlings.
+
+[48:24] Now it's all out and it looks beautiful. Better than the people next door? Oh yeah. Yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[48:29] Nastasha, by the way, has a feeling that she's great at all the things like this. But I I tend to think that she probably has a good garden. I do, I do. I do. I'll bring a picture.
+
+[48:37] Yeah? Yeah. Maybe you'll post it on our post on the Twitter account. Okay. Uh okay.
+
+[48:43] So uh the the the point is is that this book is depressing for me because I can't grow garlic, but it doesn't even have recipes, which I love. What it is is it's a book about garlic varieties and uh some history and some lore and uh how they're used in a culinary sense, what makes a great culinary garlic and uh and all the different varieties and planners' notes and how to grow them and where they respond best, uh, with lots of great pictures, uh, but without recipes and clearly written by someone who cooks with them all the time and knows how to cook. Uh and these kind of books are rare. Usually you either have books that are basically recipe books that have something about the actual product, right? Like garlic in this case, or you have books that are exclusively about garlic with that aren't written from the perspective of a cook.
+
+[49:32] This is you know fairly rare in this kind of field, in that it's a book written for uh uh people who are gardeners, but who garden with garlic not because they're interested in garlic as a theoretical thing, but because they're interested in garlic the cooking item. Uh and it's a good book for that. It's great. If you are planning on growing garlic, uh go ahead and get it. Uh one of the best discussions of it is uh he has it goes to a very good discussion in that book about um about why you would plant different kinds of garlic, and it's because different kinds of garlic are good as the season progresses, very much similar to kind of what I say about apples, that apples uh there's an apple for every time and for every place.
+
+[50:12] So, you know, he goes through uh what I thought is a very great discussion of kind of the usefulness of having different varieties and also of kind of the challenges of growing garlic and the fact that garlic uh over the first couple of years that you planted in your in your garden is going to climatize to your garden. It's just really I think it's an interesting book. Uh I would I would go with that. I don't have a good uh onion onion book for you now. Garlic start as a seed?
+
+[50:34] You plant the you put you plant the the one of the yeah, you plant the clove. Yeah. Yeah. Uh anywho, um and it talks something about using he hasn't used the bulbills that much, but it talks about using scapes and all those other things and what he uses. But it's not a recipe book, thank God.
+
+[50:51] Um as for uses, I mean, other than the ones that we always I don't have any new onion uses. I mean, other than the ones we always always harp on, which is pressure cooking onions, uh, which you know Nils used to make ice cream with. Uh, I like pressure, I like uh doing like dual onion soup, like pressure cooked massive amounts of pressure cooked onions into a beef stock or veg, I guess, and then uh, and then sauteing onions regularly and adding them for like mega onion soups. I like that. Straight up pressure cooked onion soup is a little light on onion flavor, right?
+
+[51:25] Um because but it's incredibly sweet. Um I mean, garlic, the same thing. Most of my tricks are pressure cooking, like pressure cooking massive amounts of garlic to make sauces for pizzas uh that are like half garlic. I mean, I I do that, you know, pretty much all the time. I make a lot of sauces that way.
+
+[51:42] Do we have any other good onion tricks? No? Ice cream you said? I already said that. Anything?
+
+[51:48] No? No? Go get yourself some Chinese chives. They're fantastic to cook with, wilted, sauteed with uh bacon. They're delicious.
+
+[51:56] Um anyway. So uh that is that. That is cooking issues, and come back next week. Uh thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritage radio network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[52:19] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. I'm Will Harris, and today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245.
+
+[0:39] Was joined in the studio by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, but when I opened up my bag, I found that my quart containers of coriander syrup for tonight's event for the Museum of Food and Drinks spilled all over the inside of my bag. And as everyone knows, I love sticky bags and losing all of my product, don't you, Jack? Yes. Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah!
+
+[0:57] Huge fan. Yeah, huge. Luckily, uh, as is normal, I overmade what I needed, and so I'm pretty sure I'll have enough uh for the event. But we'll see. Uh, we'll give you uh a rundown next week on how the event went, but I am doing beers and brats.
+
+[1:13] So I'm gonna do in uh in a in a circulator, immersion circulator, I'm gonna hold some bratwurst that uh was made by uh Pat Lafrida uh at uh about 140, which is uh 60 degrees Celsius in beer. I'm just gonna let it sit there for a long time. Then uh as soon as I get there, but to the French culinary, which is where our event's gonna be today. Good old FCI French Culinary Institute. Uh, I'm gonna see what the hottest thing I have in the world is to finish the brats off, and we're just gonna stick them in regular, I think like Martin's potato rolls, right?
+
+[1:38] That sounds good, right? Yeah, I'm gonna try to make it to the event. Yeah, it'd be awesome. And then and then, right? So here's what I figure, right?
+
+[1:45] I need something that's easy because I need to roll in to be able to do the event, and that's easy. I need something that's delicious, and I need something that's gonna anchor you because we're having a whole bunch of really good bartenders there making drinks. The event's sponsored by uh William Grant, which is, you know, they do uh Hendrix and whatnot. Uh Booker and Dax, Tristan from Booker and Dax is coming and we're gonna make a uh we're gonna make a it's sort of like a coriander mule kind of a situation, like coriander uh with a little bit of red pepper and lime juice and uh vodka, and we're gonna carbonate that son of a gun, put some mint in it, and I think people are just gonna crush the hell out of it. Yeah, sounds like a crushable drink.
+
+[2:21] Oh, yeah. Jason Lattrell is going a little nut baggy. You ready for this one? Jason is uh Jason Latrell, a good friend of ours. He's doing, I swear to Christ, Welch's grape soda and Hendrix Gin.
+
+[2:31] Wow. Right? Yeah. Really? Well, look, I don't know whether he's just saying that to like mess with Nastasha or whether he's hit.
+
+[2:39] I mean, he might look first of all, Nastasha, who I I I actually, you know, for those of you, I don't really like to give her crap unless she's here. It's no fun if she's not here. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but she had uh especially when she's off fixing my mistakes, apparently because my uh core containers weren't sealed properly. But um uh I uh you know, she had never heard of Welch's grape soda before.
+
+[3:00] No. Yeah. Is that an East Coast thing? I didn't think so. I mean I've I grew up with knowing Welch's grape soda.
+
+[3:07] Right. Yeah. But I mean I'm from New York, so I'm from New York too. Biggie Smalls calls out Welch's grape soda. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[3:13] You know, grape soda. What the hell? But grape soda and Hendrix? Look, man, I look, I think, you know, I trust my man Latrell. Latrell's a good man.
+
+[3:21] So I'm sure that uh it's gonna be some delicious, but all I have going through my head is kind of biggie biggie smalls, you know. Uh yeah, anyway. Uh yeah. Okay. So, oh, but speaking of core containers, I discovered something interesting about core containers.
+
+[3:36] I've been using them for a bazillion years, and I recommend everyone go out and have eight boatloads of quart containers in their house because it's the way to store your leftovers in your in your fridge. They stack, you can bring they're awesome. They they have only like one or two downsides. One is they get very brittle when they're frozen. Uh and this the second is that if you if basically if you don't dry them out well, they pick up smells.
+
+[4:01] So you have to smell core containers and make sure they haven't, you know, and let them dry open and stuff like that. I always yell at people for this. But uh I've my wife doesn't let me uh nuke. Nuke means microwave uh stuff in it to reheat it because she's worried about plastics leaching out. And I try to say that, you know, I don't know, but one thing I have always noticed when you nuke with the lid on is that the lid deforms and explodes.
+
+[4:21] You notice that, Jack? You ever done that? I I have seen that before. Yeah, the lid deforms and explodes, but the uh container is fine, right? And one of the reasons I've always thought it was really fine to microwave and a polypropylene uh well, the core container, which are made of polypropylene, is that the melting point of polypropylene a lot higher than a lot of the other things we deal with, like for instance polyethylene, plastic wrap.
+
+[4:43] So you can actually pressure cook uh polypropylene cork container, and it won't uh it you can't bend bend it still, it's still holding its its structure. So yeah, so I'm like, man, yeah, yeah, that's okay, right? Turns out the cork container is made of polypropylene, but the lid is made, and I just noticed this today when I was looking at the lids, the lid is made of low uh low density polyethylene. Polyethylene, lower melting temperature. Weird.
+
+[5:09] Why wouldn't they make it all the same? I don't know. It's weird, right? Yeah, that's weird. Although you know what it's kind of good, maybe they want the lid to blow up before the cork container deforms.
+
+[5:18] I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. But the the lid on it was uh polyethylene, and so that would explain why it deforms and blows off the top of the thing before anything happens to the uh to the container. So there you have that, and I literally discovered that this morning. So there you have it.
+
+[5:35] There you have it. Um, uh on to the question. Oh, call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. And by the way, Jack, you know, I was thinking about this.
+
+[5:46] I know you think I should stick like me a basically only technical, but you know, I know how to cook other things besides low temperature and like crazy stuff. You know, if you have any questions on things like, you know, I make a mean pancake. Yeah, mean pancakes. I mean I make good pancakes. I can fry any damn thing.
+
+[6:01] Anything. I'll put the word out there. Yeah, I mean, like, so you don't, you know, you don't feel obliged to like you know, wait until you have like the one technical question a year that you have. If you have any question based on uh cooking, uh, you know, and if I don't know, we'll have a fun discussion about it, right? I mean, if you happen to stump me off something that I have no idea, then what the hell?
+
+[6:20] Fine. That's fun too, right? So call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. I have a really quick question.
+
+[6:26] What's that? What did you think of the uh Blanca tasting menu? Uh Carlo. Well, am I allowed to talk about it now? Oh, maybe not.
+
+[6:34] I don't know. I was there on Saturday. Yeah, all right. So listen, maybe put a call in. Yeah.
+
+[6:39] Put a call in, find out if I'm allowed to talk about it or not. Okay. And then if if I'm allowed to talk about it, then I'll talk about it. Okay. All right.
+
+[6:46] I went to the WD 50 uh kind of uh new menu tasting. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's great. I bet. Yeah, all this stuff was delicious.
+
+[6:52] It was delicious. Um the interesting thing about it is is it the menus in entirely new, but for those of you uh who have never been before or wondering what it's like, it's still very clearly WD50 food. Like you would not walk in there and think that I'm in a different restaurant. You know what I mean? It's still very clearly what you expect from WD50, just entirely new.
+
+[7:13] Yeah. Nastasha's back. Were we able to save most of the stuff? Yeah. Yeah?
+
+[7:18] Is my bag totally ruined? Uh we're gonna have to clean it after. Awesome. Nothing I love. You know what?
+
+[7:23] I made here's what I hate. I made the bag myself. Like I bought the fabric, super high, you know, high end fabric. I sewed it myself. Everything designed, cut, sewed, and now it's full of simple syrup, which is like my worst nightmare on earth.
+
+[7:36] It's the equivalent of Nastasha being coated in leaves with uh leaf skin disease on them or something like that, which is kind of that's your worst nightmare, right? To be thrown into a bed of leaves with uh with those weird like fungal growths coming out of them. Yes. Yeah, it's her worst nightmare. Okay.
+
+[7:51] Uh on to a real we actually have interesting, like uh interesting synergy of questions today. Hello, Dave and the cooking issues crew. This is Darren from Sous vide Dash, and now the polyzyne sous vide toolkit, which we'll talk about later. Here's a question on which is a program for your iPad that allows you to uh determine cooking times for uh sous vide work and stuff like that, right? We'll talk about it later.
+
+[8:12] Uh uh with a completely different topic, the culinary application of static mixtures. I wonder if you have ever had any experience with static mixers. Uh I have. By the way, before we get on to it, so what a static mixer is uh a static mixer is basically a tube. And then inside of the tube are uh kind of imagine like uh like it's hard to explain on the radio.
+
+[8:33] Like they're like twisted plates that go crisscross to each other that basically when you're pumping uh a liquid through the tube, the twists twist it and mix it, and then it hits another tube in a different direction and it twists it and mix it in the other direction, kind of like folding again and again and again and again, but it's going through a tube, so there's no moving parts, right? So the the basic benefit of a static mixer are that you get very, very even mixing, right? Uh you can, you know, get extremely thorough mixing if you choose the right thing. And there are zero moving parts, and you don't incorporate air into the mixture when you're when you're pumping it in, right? So these are the main, these are the main kinds of uh advantages.
+
+[9:13] I mean, the disadvantage is you have to pipe everything through a little tube, right? I mean, that's the that's the that's the only downside, really. Okay. Uh I wonder if you ever had any experience with static mixers. I've read about them being used in the production of mayonnaise and ketchup at an industrial scale.
+
+[9:26] I've also seen very small ones that are used to attach to a double uh plunger dispenser for mixing epoxy. That got me thinking, could I adapt this technique using a small manual dispenser and a static mixer to create culinary emulsions? I did a little digging around and found a reference indicating that for stable mayonnaise, the oil droplet size should be between two and eight micrometers, aka small. Small. Okay.
+
+[9:48] Uh and but that's like super stable, like shelf stable forever. That's like, you know, helmins. Anyway, uh I also found a paper indicating that small static mixers tend to produce droplets two orders of magnitude larger than that, which was a little discouraging. So my question is do you have any experience trying to emulsify with a small static mixer? Uh there are all kinds of culinary emulsions that would be cool to make a la minute or even table side with a quick pull of a trigger.
+
+[10:11] I wonder how much uh the larger droplet size will affect texture and stability for something like mayonnaise and other interesting emulsions. I'm inclined to purchase some samples and do some experiments, but I figured if anyone has done it so far, it would be you. Any experience, suggestions, tips, tricks, or feedback? Thanks, Dee. Okay.
+
+[10:26] Um, and they gave a shout out because he was with uh P Press. That's Philip Preston, for those of you not in the know from PolyScience. He was hanging out with Philip Preston and our boy Hervé Molivare, we're gonna see today from the French Culinary Institute. Chef Hervé, the the now Muay Thai judo skiing race car driving lunatic French chef over at the French Culinary Institute. Anywho, here are my theories on static mixing.
+
+[10:48] Uh the my main experience with static mixing has not been, in fact, all of my experience with static mixing has not been in the culinary field, but has in fact been mixing epoxies and urethanes. Uh that said, they are freaking amazing at that. Uh, you know, I was like, you know, how good and I buy the you know the the in real ones, you know, they're the ones that I buy are like um oh I don't know, about ten to twelve inches long, and they're meant to dispense uh uh you know between two and four hundred milliliters of a urethane casting resin. And for those of you that ever mixed uh, you know, casting resins, you know that air bubbles are a nightmare and you have to vacuum this stuff out uh to get rid of the air bubbles, and it becomes very problematic if you want a nice bubble-free casting. Uh with these things, and I really had my doubts, it's just freaking genius.
+
+[11:35] It's just it's it's and also when you're mixing, you have to sit there and you wonder whether you're mixing all around and stuff like this. And it's just awesome. You know, just no air, no nothing, perfect. Um okay, one second, I'll finish on this. So, like the thing with the static mixer, okay, but listen.
+
+[11:50] Oh, wait, what wait, hold on a moment. Howdy? Uh, you call I'll take the caller and then I'll go back to static mixing. Caller, you're on the air. Hello.
+
+[11:57] I think you get the hole. Hello? Hi, how you doing? Oh, I'm on I'm on Skype, so it might be a little crappy. Nice, I like crappy.
+
+[12:06] Okay, uh, I have a question about uh rice-based Mexican Orchata. Oh, okay. Nice. Uh I I I thought I was gonna email it, sorry. I wrote it down.
+
+[12:16] I'm gonna be kind of regurgitated. Uh so most green gill recipes have you blend uh uncooked rice with water and let it eat like overnight or something. Right. But it it just doesn't taste very ricey. Uh uh the flip side, I've read some recipes where they have you cook the rice to some extent, not like all the way, like the inside will still be kind of hard and a little bit crunchy, and you blend this and and strain that.
+
+[12:45] But when you do that, it's super super viscous and and not really drinkably thin. But it it tastes delicious and ricey like rice pudding. So I guess what I want is like a a drinkably thin rice pudding. But are are are there's a ricey taste and viscosity in extric inextricably linked, or is there some way to separate them? Hmm.
+
+[13:07] And the the what what what pre what like what things do you do prior to the uh to soaking it with the with the with the uncooked one? Uh I guess I'll usually I I guess I'll usually rinse it. But you don't grind it. Uh I I grind it in the water in a blender. Right.
+
+[13:28] Let me think. This is an uh it's an interesting, it's a good one. I haven't thought about this. I have thought recently about another rice problem, but I'm thinking about this particular rice problem. I mean, it's the thing with viscosity, right, is you're getting starch bleeding into the uh into the water, and then uh that when you're cooking it, what a cooked starch bleeding is a thickener.
+
+[13:48] Do you know what I mean? And so it's gonna thicken it. You could probably thin that starch with I mean the high tech version of me says I will just add a uh an enzyme to break down the starch and I'll thin that sucker down right away. It'll also make it sweeter. Um, but uh but there's gotta be a real solution, right?
+
+[14:07] When I say real, I mean traditional solution. I mean, I have a bunch of enzymes literally that I could drop in there and thin it out in like in no time flat, you know. Uh and then it would keep that that ricey flavor. Have you had ones in Latin America made with raw rice that have enough of a ricey taste for you? Uh I I haven't actually been to Latin America.
+
+[14:28] I I moved to Los Angeles uh uh two years ago for grad school, and I've had some pretty good ones there, but they're made with they're made with uncooked? I'm I'm not sure what the the ones I'm I I've had have been made with. I have a feeling a lot of them are made with mixes. Yeah. Oh, mixes, right.
+
+[14:48] You could also, yeah, you could use rice flour too. Do you know what I mean? Uh I thought about that, but I haven't tried it yet. Yeah. Or pre-grind the rice and put it in.
+
+[14:57] I mean, I've I've been working a lot now. Um, so uh how sweet are these things? When you buy the mix, do they add a lot of sugar? Is there how sweet is it? They they tend to be they tend to be quite sweet, I would say.
+
+[15:10] Yeah. Well, there's a a question later on in the show get to uh that has to do with stuff you should bring back from China. And Harold McGee just got back uh from China, and uh one of the things that he brought back, not a physical thing, but an idea, is these uh these combination kind of yeast rice, uh these yeast uh slash mold uh balls. And what's cool about them is that uh the mold in them actually sacrifies the rice, i.e. takes the rice starch and converts it to sugar to make it sweet, and then yeast will start fermentation and turn that uh turn that sugar into alcohol.
+
+[15:47] But if you if you only do it for a couple of days, right, the mold basically makes what it's it's like a delicious, sweet uh rice drink that is super ricey and super awesome. It's almost like an unfermented rice beer, like a wart. Now I'm wondering whether or not traditionally uh and but that's done with cooked, but it's still thin, but it's done with cooked rice. I wonder whether you could do something like that uh if there's some sort of something it's actually sacrifying the starch or breaking it apart. I just don't know.
+
+[16:15] I have to think about it. But you might want to look into those things. You could buy them at any store in like any Chinatown near in a big city and they're called yeast balls. And when you add those to cooked rice, it takes a couple of days but like all of a sudden the rice breaks and you have a thin clear liquid that's delicious. Not orchata so like I'm it's not it's off the s off the subject but it's another oh no that's that sounds really cool.
+
+[16:39] I'm happy to have heard about that as well. Yeah so I mean go check that out and like look into you know or the familiar Japanese version uh you know you take the Koji starter that they have and you add it to rice it'll sacrifice and if you don't let it go I've never tested the Japanese version. I've only tested the the Chinese one and and it's made with a different mold. I can tell you from firsthand experience with the Chinese one it's really freaking delicious and ricey. And so you know you the you might want to play around play around with that one.
+
+[17:09] You know you store it you know at roughly like ninety five in like a bread proof or in your oven with just a pile it on if you have that. I used my dehydrator when I did the test but it's really good stuff. Uh but I'm I'm interested in trying to think about your problem but I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to think about it kind of in more detail. Hopefully someone out there has had some experience with this and they can write us an email answer so that next week I can come back with someone who's had some practical experience with this. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:33] Yeah, yeah. That would be great. Alright cool. Thank you very, very much. One one one one yes or no questions before you go.
+
+[17:42] I'm in I'm in Tokyo for uh for two months, and I know you're coming here somewhat imminently. Is the event you're doing here something open to the public? Nastasha, is it? No. Really?
+
+[17:54] Oh. Uh that's too bad. All right. That's too bad. But thank you very much anyway.
+
+[17:59] All right, thank you so much. Bye. Okay, back to static mixers, my favorite static mixers. So uh on the static mixer, I forget exactly where I left off, but they like uh when you're mixing uh plastic with it, it's amazing how thorough the mix is. So one of the problems when you're doing any sort of mixture uh is the fact that if you're using a blender or a hand blender specifically, is that there's pockets of it that aren't blended the same amount as everything else, and you don't have thorough blending all the way through.
+
+[18:25] It's just you know the nature of the beast. Now, that's not so much of a problem if you have something big like a Vitaprep, but there you go. So uh a static mixer would be good in an application where what you want is very, very even mixing uh in a very short amount of time. You don't want the things to stay together very long, and you don't want to have to mix a large amount of product, right? The only parts that get mixed are the parts that's going through the little bit of tube.
+
+[18:47] So if you had two things that couldn't come together until the last minute and you didn't want to waste them all by blending, and you didn't want to waste enough each time by having to have enough to blend, static mixer would be fantastic. From an emulsion standpoint, the problem is that uh it's not that high shear a uh a thing. So emulsions are made in a number of ways, but basically, for any given system, the s the the larger the amount of energy you put into shearing to shearing the the the thing together, the smaller the droplet size. And static mixers, to the best of my knowledge, just aren't that good at high shear. So it's gonna be difficult to get super small emulsion size, uh well, droplet size in them, unless you hit it with a lot of emulsifiers.
+
+[19:31] In which case, what you're doing is reducing the amount of energy it takes to create an emulsion. So if you have something that wants to emulsify fairly easily, right, uh, and something that you needed to have it made all of minute, like for instance, I don't know, I couldn't think of one off the top of my head, but something that's fairly um fairly fragile, right? That doesn't want to stay together a long time, or uh or something you don't want to mix because it might oxidize if you put it in a blender, then a static mixer might work uh quite well with you. But I don't think it's gonna get down to super super small uh particle size. I just don't think that's what it's what it's good at.
+
+[20:01] Anyways, let's take a break and uh we'll come back with more cooking issues. Straight up, honey, really I'm asking. Most of these niggas think they be macin, but they be acting. Who they attracting with that line? What's your name?
+
+[20:16] What's your sign? Soon as he buy that wine, I just creep up from behind. And ask you what your interests are. Who you be with, things that make you smile, what numbers to dial? You're gonna be here for a while, I'm gonna call my crew.
+
+[20:27] You go call your crew. We can rendezvous at the bar around two. Plans to leave, though the keys, the little Cs, pull the truck up front and roll up the next book. So we can see on the way to the telly, go fill my belly. A T-bone steak, cheese, eggs, and we'll just grade.
+
+[20:42] Call the thing for a few. Cause in our few, we gon' do what we came to do. Ain't that right, boom? Forget the telly, we just go to the crib and watch a movie in the jackousy smoke L's while you're doing it. White Oak Pastures is a hundred and forty-six-year-old multi-generational family farm that works in cooperation with nature to produce artisans, meat that is safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to eat.
+
+[21:09] Well, I tell that fail, we ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated. We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit Whiteoak Pastures.com. Wow. From the sound of him, it sounds like he really loves having Biggie Smalls be the background music for his uh Yeah, not so sure about that.
+
+[21:40] I had to fit the Welches in there though. Oh, you had to get the Welch's grapevine. I totally, totally agree. Totally agree. Okay.
+
+[21:46] Uh by the way, Nastasha, I was walking here like uh in the pouring rain, right? And uh with unknown stuff stuff leaking all over the inside of my bag, and the guy a guy walks past me in the baseball hat practicing his rap on the freaking sidewalk. Like, what the hell is that? Like, what the hell's going on? Listen, if you live in New York, it's like a long-standing rule.
+
+[22:05] If you want to learn bagpipes, right, you have to literally, no matter how crappy you are, you have to go out into a park or a subway station and just play the bagpipes. Because that's that's all you have open to you. You cannot play bagpipes in your house. It's just not reasonable. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:19] Uh and so that's why, you know, you can hear some crappy bagpipes now and again in a park because what else are you gonna do? There's no no choice, right? No choice, no problem. That's uh Karen Smith says. But uh rap you can kind of do in your house.
+
+[22:31] So if you suck, why are you walking around the street like with your crappy rap? You know what I mean? What does he expect? I'm gonna I'm gonna like walk by him and I'm some sort of like produce some rap producer. He's gonna walk next to a rap producer being like, Wow, that's the that's the exact pseudo-tough male voice that I've been looking for for years.
+
+[22:46] You know what I mean? Weak. I don't know. His hat was nice though. He had a nice baseball hat.
+
+[22:50] Okay, anyway. Uh hopefully, hopefully, well, he there's no way, but imagine if he was a listener and he came and he beat the crap out of me the next time I walked past him on the avenue on the way to River's. I love your rapper. I love you. I love it.
+
+[22:59] I was just kidding. Okay. Uh hi, Dave, Nastasha, and Jack. I'm running from the UK, a longtime listener, but it's been a while since I wrote in. I have a question about ultrasonic homogenizers.
+
+[23:08] More on the multiplication today. It's a really interesting uh week. Uh I'm another vegetarian chef like uh like Michael Nakin, uh we're who of whom we're a fan, and greatly looking forward to his book being available in the UK. I'm currently working on this and work on that, Michael. Uh I'm currently working on my own modern vegetarian book, which should be out this summer.
+
+[23:23] But I don't really want to weigh in on the whole recent vegetarian vegan debate beyond saying I happen to be a lacto ova vegetarian, but see myself as a chef first and foremost. Uh that define me defines me much more than my choice not to eat meat. And I work within that niche or constraint, strive to be my best create uh best creative and learn like all passionate young chefs. Sounds good to me. I recently got a hold of a poly science sonic prep, uh, for which I just have a couple of weeks on loan.
+
+[23:46] It's an amazing piece of equipment. Emulsions in an instant with no added emulsifier, uh infusions, flavor extractions, all fantastic. It's a pretty awe-inspiring bit of kit. Uh kit, by the way, is like, you know, cool stuff for those of you who've never been to the UK. However, I've noticed uh using it to infuse flavors into oil.
+
+[24:01] I did this with a few herbs and other things, but each time into olive oil, that whilst I would get an herb flavor coming through great and very quickly, the infused oil in some cases took on a mild metallic, almost burnt flavor. I have a decent understanding of the cavitation process by which the sonic prep works, and I can't see why this would cause such an effect. And none of the tests I've done so far that I run the machine long enough for the oil to become heated above just being mildly warm. Uh just running around three minutes each time and not on full power, or even at a constant cycle for all of them. Also, I didn't notice this problem when infusing alcohol or working with a water base.
+
+[24:30] Any ideas of what could be causing this effect or how to counteract, avoid it. Uh I hope I might overcome it with some informed trial and error, and there's tons of other stuff I want to try while I have it. But since it's on loan, any advice would be great. And if there's anything else you suggest, I should try it with too. That would be great.
+
+[24:43] All the best, Eddie Shepard. And he said cheers because he's from England. Yeah. Okay. So here's the dealy.
+
+[24:44] I think your main problem is olive oil. Have you tried it with another oil? Olive oil classically. Like so, listen, when you're making a mayonnaise, we all know that if you make a mayonnaise with uh certain kinds of olive oil, all of a sudden it can go bitter and messed up, right? Same way if you put olive oil in a blender and you over blend olive oil in a blender, like sometimes you're okay and sometimes it's messed up.
+
+[25:10] Now, the cafe and I forget what it is. I had a you know a long discussion with Harold McGee about you know what this actually might uh what might be causing this, and and uh I don't remember whether he was sure or not, but it's just a kind of a well-known fact that this can happen with olive oil. So first thing I would do is don't do it with olive oil, do it something else. Uh something that's more neutral or something that doesn't have that kind of ability to go uh bitter uh on you. Uh the other thing I've noticed is that you know, uh first of all, for those of you don't know, an ultrasonic homogenizer is basically an ultrasonic transducer, but on roids that can put out a lot of power and uh it vibrates ultrasonically, meaning faster than you can hear it.
+
+[25:47] Ha ha ha, we'll talk about that in a second. But uh the violent uh going back and forth actually causes uh little like cavitation, little vacuum bubbles to form that then collapse with a lot of force and do things like rupture cells, make very fine emulsions, etc. etc. Um I've had one for like I don't know, seven years, something like that, that was given to me on loan, but I never gave it back from Branson's ultrasonic, and it's the same style that everyone's using nowadays. It's 400 watts, which is you know, pretty baller.
+
+[26:18] Um I never had the enclosure, and I've never done too much experimentation with it because it makes people run from the room screaming. You know what I mean? Like Nastash, you've had you've been in the room when it comes on, right? I think so. Yeah, I mean it like the the the I don't know, it's like yes, it's theoretically ultrasonic, but l people like put their hands to their ears and run around.
+
+[26:37] The enclosure apparently does a lot to stop that. But one of the first things that I noticed when I was using it is that you could do this thing uh that you know Nathan Miraville and Chris Young and Maxime have kind of popularized is the idea of kind of created milks or constructed milks where you have a very you have an emulsion with a very low uh oil amount in it and you you know similar to milk on the order of like four or five percent fat and you emulsify that in and it and it gets really good uh results. Uh and it's it's fantastic at that. My issue with it I haven't really experimented enough with it to say whether what the awesome results with it are because the results that I were able to get, I wasn't able to uh it it wasn't the exclusive way I could get them. So it's like the milks, it's very, very good at without adding the emulsifiers.
+
+[27:23] But on the other hand, when I had to go say to someone, hey look, you're a chef, and uh would you would I rather have you spend four thousand dollars? I don't know what it costs now, but that's what it costs at the time. Would I rather have you spend four thousand dollars on this piece of ultrasonic uh homogenization stuff, or would I say spend four dollars on an emulsifier and make it in the vita prep that you already have? So and that basic fundamental thing that I haven't found anything that I can't do another way with it yet, plus the fact that running it, the one I have is a hardship on everyone around me, and there's no way I could do it during service, has um has kind of stopped me from investigating it to the level that uh I probably should. But I know that I investigated using it with avocados to try and get avocado oil when I was doing avocado in a centrifuge, and it ruined the flavor of the avocado, but I think that's because of oxidation uh of the actual avocado.
+
+[28:18] You know what I mean? And then we tried ascorbic acid, but it didn't didn't really help. So I think everything depends on the actual oil that you're using. I don't really have a lot of experience using it for infusions, although I'm sure it's uh great the same way that um you know, any any sort of like something that helps disrupt things at a small level is good at getting two things to go together. I will say this ultrasonic homogenization uh requires uh to to be really good, requires a certain amount of pre-emulsification, right?
+
+[28:44] So before you hit it with the ultrasonic homogenizer, put it in a blender and blend it up. Ultras ultrasonics aren't good at taking apart large particles like pieces of like peeps pieces of pepper grinds and stuff like this. It's just good at taking something that's already started forming and making it much, much, much finer. So for the best results, blend first and then hit it with the ultrasonic homogenizer to really do it well. Also, be careful with it because uh the demo I used to run with it about how dangerous it can be, just stick it into a into a bar towel on a table and light the bar towel on fire from the power of the uh ultrasonic homogenizer.
+
+[29:16] Anyways, uh hope that's helpful. Uh okay. Hello, my name is Juventino Magana, living in Las Vegas. My wife is in China and coming home in a week. Uh wanted for her to bring me something that I can't find here and need help on telling what to bring.
+
+[29:29] Uh please help. I'm a chef by the way. Send for my iPad. Wow, it's a hard question. I wish I'd asked McGee stuff that he smuggled back.
+
+[29:35] I no longer kind of advocate smuggling stuff back that you can't get in the US, but I mean, um I mean I would try to see if you can get some of the really interesting uh rice wines from China uh over here because McGee was saying he had some amazing ones over there that don't taste like any ones that he's had here. Uh when I when my wife was in China years ago, I had her smuggle me back uh Chinese hams, like amazing Chinese hams uh that were unlike any um like ones that tasted like blue cheese. It was made it was amazing. But I mean I can't really I can't really recommend to you that you smuggle back something that you know you could get in uh in big trouble for. Um shoot.
+
+[30:15] I don't know. I have to think about that. Let me think see if I have to come up with anything by the end of the show. Uh uh, I'll put it in. But that's it's an excellent question.
+
+[30:21] We you know what? Someone should start a website called crap I should try to bring back. And then just like with a with like a with a country list, and like here's stuff that doesn't get sent out, like you know, when you go to Turkey, crap I should bring back celep, you know what I mean? And like and then like whether or not you're actually smuggling and you get thrown in prison, or whether or not US customs would would stop you, you know what I mean? Like Hamony Barico or something like that.
+
+[30:43] So like a list kind of of of how illicit it is, or whether it's just not imported and like why it's awesome, country to country for travelers, like cooking travelers, right? I mean, we won't do it, but that would be a good site, right? I mean, I would use it, I won't make it. Someone make that website and then get back to us so we can we can plug it. Okay.
+
+[31:01] Uh hi Nastasha and Dave and Jack. I hope you guys are rocking. Been cooking a lot and running into a lot of observations. Uh anyway, bone marrow. If I take it out of the out of the bone and soak it, it is white as a pearl within two days.
+
+[31:12] Uh, I leave it in the bone, I soak it for a week, changing water regularly, and there's still so much blood in there. What the heck? Alright, I just to freak Nastasha out. I printed a picture of like a ball of bone marrow, and I'm showing it to her right now, and she's making her uh her putrid face because uh it's it's a really it doesn't look like bone marrow like we cook. It's like it's like really.
+
+[31:32] Yeah, even Jack is even Jacking's Jack's giving his like wow face. Uh but I think what's happening is is that if you leave it in the bone, remember the outside of the bone is a lot less porous, it's a lot denser than the inside of the bone, which is where a lot of the hollow stuff is. And um bone marrow, uh, you know, I I didn't have time to look at like an electron uh microscopy of it. But my feeling is is that uh most of the chunks of bone marrow are longer than they are bigger round, and that um if it takes two days to soak in uh you know, soak from the out from like the cylinder side of it out, right? Then it's gonna take then in those same two days or three days, whatever, it's only gonna soak that far into the ends.
+
+[32:11] So unless you're cutting the pieces basically as the of bone, basically as thin as uh the diameter of the cylinder of marrow that you're working with, that it's not going to uh soak out at a at a very quick rate at all. Not to mention which there's more red crap in the bone besides the marrow that still has to bleed out as well. So there's more product in there, and you're stopping uh the slowing rather drastically the rate of diffusion of that stuff out. So I'm pretty sure that's just what's going on, right? That's my guess.
+
+[32:42] Uh but I'm willing to have someone call and say, actually, you're an idiot, and here's this phenomena that's actually causing it. But I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Also, if you're familiar with Francisco Magoya's post on the Alicia pastry cream, then do you know what kind of ratio of starch to use? I tried this technique and cannot uh and could really feel the starch on my teeth, uh, big frustration. So, what you're talking about is this post where to make uh pastry cream, instead of like the the normal uh well I looked at the post, so straight from the post uh that you know referring to uh regular recipe for pastry cream.
+
+[33:14] Place ninety-five percent of the milk in a saucep with half the sugar in another bowl, mix the remaining milk with the cornstarch, stir it well, add the egg yolks and the remaining sugar, stir until homogenous, and it must be lump free. Bring the liquid to a boil, temper the egg yolk uh slurry, and then return it to the heat and bring to the first boil while stirring constantly. So basically, for those of you who don't know, pastry cream, basically like an englaze mix, like a you know a custard with starch in it. The starch stabilize it, you go to a higher mix. So that's the that's the classic way.
+
+[33:37] Put your ingredients together with the egg yolk, the slurry, temper it so it doesn't curdle instantly, pour it into the hot mixture, stir constantly, bring it up to the boil. The starch is actually protecting it uh when you're boiling, right? So Wiley makes his uh Hollandaise with regular egg yolks, and he just dumps so much starch into them that uh they won't curdle even when they're fried. So uh the starch really is what's protecting you protecting you there. So the Alicia procedure is a lot easier because what they do is is you just mix uh the sugar uh with the milk uh and then you boil it, and then you have the co cornstarch and the uh egg yolk, and you mix those, and when the water brings to a boil, you just uh like kind of whisk the other stuff in uh and then it just kind of sets.
+
+[34:22] And the problem is, I I think maybe the problem you're having is is that uh the deal is if you don't make the right amount of that, what you're using is the residual heat from the milk to both uh cook the egg yolk, cook the egg yolk out without curdling it, and that's what the extra the starch is there to prevent the egg yolk from curdling and cooking. And B, you have to functionalize the starch. So uh the starch has to hydrate, swell, and and cook before the t uh temperature of of your product drops too low. So my guess is perhaps you are um perhaps what's going on is you're doing too small a batch compared to what he says. He says he makes at least uh you know more than a liter.
+
+[35:04] Uh perhaps your batch size is too small and it gets too cold uh too quickly, and the starch doesn't cook out, and so you're gonna have a raw grainy starch taste. I mean, that's that's a guess, right? Um it should be possible, by the way, to just use an instantized agglomerized starch, for instance, uh ultra spurse, uh, you know, one of the ultra spurse lines from National Starch. And then you really don't have to worry at all. As long as it's hot enough to pasteurize out the egg yolk and thicken it a little bit, then you don't have to worry about it uh doing the starch in time.
+
+[35:33] So maybe try try that. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. But if anyone has any questions, uh let them uh write in and again tell me that I'm an idiot.
+
+[35:41] Uh okay. So uh that was from uh Philippe Lamont. P Press, our good friend Philip Preston from Polyscience writes in uh and he says it's been a while since we've connected. I hope this email finds you well. It does.
+
+[35:52] Uh this week, Philip has launched an iPad iPhone Sous vide application that uh he's very excited about. Uh and he says, we believe this application will be of tremendous help to chefs in determining the correct cooking time for various thicknesses of protein. Based on research done by Nathan, that's Nathan Miravold, Chris Young, uh, who's been on the show, uh, Doug Baldwin and others, uh, we can calculate the thermal conductivity of various proteins in various shapes and sizes. Uh to determine the accurate cooking time, he uses the thermal uh diffus uh diffusivity of food, thermal conductivity of the food, the shape coefficient, uh, which basically it's like a fudge factor. They're like, you know, it's like, I don't know, is it a certain sphere?
+
+[36:28] Is it a cylinder, something in between? Eh, anyway. Uh uh, etc. etc. And they use the differential equations and they actually calculate it.
+
+[36:35] Once you've entered these uh pieces of data, they calculate the time to cook pasteurized to the surface or pasteurized to the core and show the log reduction of pathogens. We've collaborated with uh the guys from Sous vide Dash, which I know you've mentioned on your cooking issues radio show, and they had a question earlier in the thing. I think you'll see the improvements for user friendliness and streamlining that we did, uh, and you can download it on the thing. I checked it out. Uh it's true.
+
+[36:55] It uh the interesting thing is it's it's clearly derived from the Sous Vash guys that they they workflow, but it adds things like it actually shows you the curves of how the bacteria are being killed, and it saves your it's it's it's very user-friendly actually. It's really uh it's good. I don't know how much it costs. Uh do you not we'll figure out how much it costs? I don't know how much it costs.
+
+[37:15] But uh it uh it seems to work well. Here's my here's my uh uh issue with with it. First of all, it has something like called an an ice an ice bath thing. Uh and it's basically the only thing they allow you to do is to figure out your chilling time. If you're a chef and you're worried about how long is it gonna take to chill my item, um, you know, the the problem with it is is that when we advocate it, Bruno Gusseau from Cuisine Solutions advocates uh and we now advocate a two-step, two or three-step chilling process.
+
+[37:41] When you take something out of low temperature, the idea is you don't want to chill the food right away. If you chill it right away, you prevent the proteins from when they're still uh have the ability to, when they're warm, from reabsorbing juices that have been expelled out during the cooking process. And so Bruno Gusot and we recommend a uh a process where you take it out of the out of the water bath cooking bath and you leave it on the counter for 10 to 15 minutes, depending on thickness, uh, and then put it into tap water to slowly cool it down for 10 to 15 minutes, and then an ice bath until it's cool. So it'll be nice if you have like a multiple regime chilling thing in there for chefs if they really want to figure out uh how fast they're getting the core temperature down with their chilling regime. Now, uh the other thing, and by the way, if you want to chill something quickly in an ice bath, and this is something I don't think people talk about, a really good way to chill quickly in an ice bath, small amounts, is to keep your immersion circulator uh in an ice bath.
+
+[38:33] Set the temperature below zero Celsius, below 32 Fahrenheit, and use it to circulate your ice bath because uh you're going to tremendously increase your cooling rate by circulating your ice bath. And this is something I think no one ever talks about. I've never seen anyone write about it. But it's another way to use the circulation in your circulator to help you to chill things very much, much, much more rapidly because there's very little movement inside an ice bath. And if you ever put your hand into an ice bath with a lot of product in it, you'll notice that there's a big warm spots right next to where the uh where the product is.
+
+[39:03] It can it can make a big big difference. The other thing I'd really love to see in an application like this that they don't have is uh how to apply it to the finishing of uh of your of your meat products. So, for instance, I have uh when when I'm finishing a product, you like I've I'll fry it or I'll put it on a grill or I'll put it in a pan for a couple of minutes, and you get a big temperature spike in the center out of that. And so, what you have to do before you finish it, if you don't want to overcook your meat, is you have to chill it a bit before you uh do a cook off. Conversely, I might want to know how long it's gonna take me to fry through a piece of chicken in a deep fryer without using low temperature at all.
+
+[39:42] And the same equations that they're using for low temperature cooking are applicable to these higher temperature cooking techniques. So, what I would like to see is it also have something in there be like, okay, I'm gonna deep fry uh a piece of chicken. How long is it gonna take to get my core temperature up? Or uh I'm going to uh put on a grill or in a deep fryer uh the steak that I just finished in sous vide. How much of a rise am I gonna get in the core?
+
+[40:05] Because this is a place that a lot of people ruin their products, and you've already done the math right to get the answer for what's going to happen to the temperature on the inside. So just add those, uh add those separate things, and uh I think you'd have a super duper winner. Um Jack, do I have time for one more or no? Yeah. Alright, cool.
+
+[40:23] Uh that was from our good friend Philip Preston, Apoly Science. Hello, Dave and Nastasha. I have a question about carbonation. This is from Jonathan Hunter. I know you said last week that it's difficult to do carbonation from a keg, but I'm wondering if it is all possible.
+
+[40:35] We are putting new beer lines in our space, and I have four lines open. I was thinking about doing two lines for a spritzer-like beverage, a French 75 or an Americano, and one line for an NA and one line for carbonated water. We have a glycol system and we're running the lines about 20 feet. We can keep the cooler about 34 degrees during service. I was wondering if there's just no way to make this work or if we could piece something together that would be possible.
+
+[40:56] Maybe if we carbonated the corny kegs ahead of time at 23 degrees and then let them sit with a tank connected before we put them on the lines, it might work. Any help with this would be great. The question I have is if there be any way to attach a valve from a CO2 tank. Another question is whether or there's a way to attach a CO2 tank directly to an ISI shaker. This would save us some money over buying cartridges.
+
+[41:14] Thanks so much. The show is really helpful. Jonathan Hunter. Okay, I'm going to take them in reverse real quick. You can absolutely connect a CO2 tank to uh an ISI.
+
+[41:23] I've done it before. All you have to do is uh get someone to machine the threads out uh to um to screw onto where you put the cartridge, right? And then go directly to a tank. I've done it before. Uh it's not that difficult, but you do need some machining skills.
+
+[41:40] Alternately, you could probably uh you could probably figure out a way to get a rig it by like molding with plastic or epoxy, but I don't know whether or not it's gonna hold uh gas and then it's gonna be more more permanent, right? Uh but eminently, eminently doable. Uh I'm sure someone out there has a DIY do it. Someone sells something to do that already, but they charge a preposterous amount of money and they expect you to buy nitrous tanks from them as well. Um ridiculous amount of money.
+
+[42:05] The other thing you could do is you could theoretically go through the dispense nozzle on it with CO2 if you wanted to do that, and that might be an easier thing for you to machine or to jerry rig, for instance. You could just screw you could just jam a piece of tube over the uh over the dispensing nozzle, right, and then take a hose clamp and tighten it down until it fits, and it might work. No guarantees on that, Nastasha, right? No guarantee. So if the thing sprays off and starts, you know, like flying around the room like a like a like a snake, then you know, don't blame me.
+
+[42:34] Uh but the good thing about that then is you could just put the you could just squeeze it and put the um the you know, squeeze it and let the gas in. The bad thing is you'd have to unscrew that that connector to vent it, unless you put like a uh a ball valve on the hose that let you vent and put change between doing gas and not. But it's it's all eminently doable, even with no machining uh technology, you could do it. Okay. Uh regarding the keg, uh look, 34 is kind of, I mean, that you're gonna need to go with a low alcohol drink.
+
+[43:05] Uh you're also gonna need because the lower the alcohol, the less foaming you're gonna have, and also the warmer it can be without getting excessive foam out, and the better carbonation you can get at those lower levels, right? So typically when we have our carbonated drinks, we're running them at uh at like 23, uh, which is where you say carbonating it at that and then letting it come up to temperature is not gonna reduce your foaming problems. That's the that's the issue on it. Now, plenty of people serve carbonated drinks out of kegs. The question is is what level of carbonation are you gonna get?
+
+[43:32] The you know if you the best result I've seen out of kegs are when you get a cold plate and you run the drink, and a cold plate sits in the bottom of an ice well, and you run the drink through two segments, two whole channels of a cold plate. So in into the cold plate, and when instead of going out of the cold plate to a gun, back into a cold plate, and then back out again, and using uh uh there's a valve called um a Becker valve, scan squeeze valve that you can get from a place called Mark Powers in Guntersville, Alabama. And it's a specially made valve for carbonated things, and it's about an order of magnitude better than uh a gun. And because it's got a big compensator in the back of it that really allows you to dispense uh between a high pressure and a low pressure without losing a lot of bubbles, and it's just the only way to do it. That's the way I do all my carbonated beverages uh and have since you know since I don't know, for like ten, ten, twelve, twelve years.
+
+[44:24] That's what I've been doing using that kind of a valve system on carbonated beverages, uh you know, at home just with seltzer. So you can do that, but you you need to make sure that the carbonation level is it's not going to be as high as it would be if you could keep the temperature lower. It's possible to salt out an ice bath and have the temperature go lower and or use glycol and get it lower even like you like you say, you can't get it lower than, but then you have to worry about freezing the stuff out inside of the coal plate, which can be a little bit of a hassle. So uh the long story is yes, it's possible. The short story is and the short story is that it whether or not it's feasible depends on what level of carbonation you want and how much you're willing to tolerate foaming.
+
+[45:03] I hope that's helpful. Come back next week for a cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[45:33] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:03] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. This is Sam Edwards, proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network, SurreyFarms.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:38] Joined today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, who's gonna leave directly from here to go to Seattle for the modernist cuisine dinner. Portland, what are you doing in Portland? Stump Town. Even though I don't appreciate good coffee. Well, she has she says she agrees because what she wants you, the listener, to feel, is that somehow, like I only pick on her.
+
+[1:12] Instead, what actually happens, I'll just give you a uh here's the thing. So uh for a living, Nastash and I try to tell people what they should be eating, you know, not what they should be eating in a in a way you should eat this, but trying to help people make better decisions, to make things better, to do a better job making food, using technology or otherwise, whether it's with cooking issues, whether it's at Booker and Dax, whether it's at the Museum of Food and Drink, we spend all of our time trying to increase the quality and not the snobbery, but the quality of uh what people can produce and do produce and do consume, right? So, like n s what Nastash will do is not once or twice, or three or four or twenty or thirty or a hundred and twenty times, but more. Poke me with things that she knows will bother me. For instance, that her favorite coffee happens to be from one of those quilted like boxes on the side of the street with wheels.
+
+[2:03] You guys know what I'm talking about? Also joined in the studio with uh our intrepid engineer and the guy who keeps the entire Heritage Radio running, Jack Insley over there. Hello. Yeah. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[2:12] Those quilted those quilted, like they got like stale stale bagels and coffee in 'em. So Nastasha, uh uh her point is that she likes to say that this is her favorite coffee because and the first thirty or forty times I didn't let it irritate me. And then because it's not like I can say, hey, look, Nastasha, you enjoy that coffee, right? It's not that you don't enjoy it because somehow you enjoy going down to the cesspool that is your street and and buying a coffee from this guy, and somehow that's an enjoyable human interaction that doesn't involve hipsters. Because folks, Nastasha hates hipsters and good yeah, hates them.
+
+[2:49] And good coffee and hipsters in this city, they go together. Do they not, Jack? Most cities. Yeah. Yes.
+
+[2:54] Yes. Okay, fair. Fair. Okay. Uh she hates going to uh Starbucks because she hates corporations and and the people who work in them.
+
+[3:04] Jack, you can agree with that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But she so she hates that. And and she hates the the general alternative, which are hipsters, right?
+
+[3:13] Because you're not it's hard to get unless they're an owner, like a fifty-year-old non-hipster, to sit around and make you a coffee all day. Jack, am I correct about this? You're spot on. Yeah. Good coffee's good coffee though.
+
+[3:24] That's what I'm saying. And and and and and there's no snobbery to enjoying good coffee. It's just it's it's a right it's a ri it's a ritual. Like literally, there are peasants somewhere, most likely, picking the coffee cherries that they then processed or shipped all the way around the world to make a cup of coffee for you. Respect it.
+
+[3:40] That's all I'm saying. Respect. Respect the coffee. You have a caller. Oh, okay, call caller, you're on the air.
+
+[3:46] Uh hey there, Dave. Uh I wanted to ask about uh pressure cooking. Ah good. Uh I am in the enthusiast category, not uh it's uh home chef, and have been listening to your show for a while. Um long enough that I memorized the phone number, which is a little scary to me.
+
+[4:02] Wow, cool. Yeah, because I forgot to mention it. Good. Yeah. Uh and uh uh So the I can't really afford this the sous vide equipment, the low the low temperature right now, but I did get a pressure cooker and because I've heard you mention it a bunch of times, and I was curious about some recipes.
+
+[4:20] I hadn't really heard you talk too much about like what's pressure cook is really good for. I really I got it in the mail, then I was like, Well, what do I do with this? Okay, do you what kind of pressure cooker do you have? It's just a s it's a six quart, and I c I can't remember the brand. Does it vent or does it not vent?
+
+[4:36] Like in other words, when it's when it's running, do does it constantly put steam out or not? I haven't even tried it yet. Okay. So they the the pressure cookers in general, they uh all pressure cookers that you that you buy. It's gas or it's electric.
+
+[4:51] It's uh it's g it's stove. Okay. Stove top yeah. So all stovetop um units basically uh can either generate five Psi of pressure or fifteen, right? And so they it's fifteen.
+
+[5:02] Yeah, yeah, no, but you could do uh in other words, they they're usually settable to do either. But you Oh, I see, okay, great. Right, but m most of the recipes that I do are based on fifteen. Uh the the main difference is is that certain pressure cookers have a uh pressure regulating mechanism in them that uh regulates pressure without venting steam. So they use a spring and you actually can see like uh um a spring traveling up without any steam coming out of the units, notably kun recon has ones like that then other um pressure cookers um they let you know they're at pressure and they regulate their pressure by uh emitting steam and so you have to have steam emitting from it a little bit not a lot uh in order to judge whether you've reached the proper pressure or not okay so one of the great things to do with pressure cookers is uh stocks stocks and and soups um what you need to realize when you're doing that when you're making soups in in general in a pressure cooker is that pressure cooking drastically mutes the flavor of things like onions it gets rid of a lot of their pungency but it also amplifies their sweetness so I like a lot of that sweetness from onions so I like I quadruple my onion base in a recipe right uh but things like carrots they stay sweet but they don't get more or less sweet or celery so if you just take the classic miropoi there okay.
+
+[6:23] But what what what happens is you get extremely fast removal of gelatin and flavor from the meats. So you can do a pressure cook stock in 15 minutes. Right? And then you you you let it come down and then you can do you could put a second set of bones into a second stock. I could do a triple stock which is extremely indulgent uh I grant you but in in a in about an hour.
+
+[6:48] The trick is if your pressure cooker is the kind of pressure cooker that releases steam uh I found that there's a flavor degradation in in the stock versus regular regular production. It's still faster, it's still good. But a pressure cooker that does not really release steam makes a pr a stock that, in my estimation, and the people that have tasted it is darker, meatier, and tastes better and has better flavor than regular cooked stock and and is also faster. Whereas if you have one that releases steam, then the flavor is not quite as good as regularly produced stock. Still good, but not quite as good as regularly produced stock, but it still is quicker.
+
+[7:29] One way around this is something that I I learned actually from Mirvold and Young and Maxime from Modernist Cuisine is they actually do smaller stocks inside of mason jars in the pressure cooker. So when you're doing that, there's a there's a couple of advantages if you're doing a soup or something with meat in it that way. One, it's sterilized if you cook it long enough. You have to know what you're doing, right? So it's shelf stable at that point.
+
+[7:54] Uh but you know, unless you read up on it, be careful. Okay. Uh second, uh there is no choice, there's no way that volatiles can uh leave, and so even with a uh pressure cooker that vents, you can get all the benefits of an undone pressure cooker. And the third one is you can do extremely small volumes. So if you have um something um like uh squab and you don't have that many bones or some sort of game bird or anything like that where you don't have a lot of the product to begin with, you can still make a very concentrated flavorful stock because if you put it into a mason jar, and you can get different sizes of mason jars all the way up to a liter and a half if you wanted to, uh then uh you can make those things very concentrated in small quantities.
+
+[8:34] So that's a that's a good thing to do. Um another uh great thing with pressure cookers is uh pressure cooking uh eggs. You let them you let them uh hard boil for a couple of minutes with the lid off, then uh just so that they're set so that they don't rupture. Then you you bring them up from cold. Then you close the pressure cooker, allow it to come up to 15 psi, cook it for between 45 minutes, an hour and 10 minutes, let it come down naturally.
+
+[8:58] If you let if you vent it, uh it the eggs could explode. And then when they're cool, you'll open them, you'll see that they're brown uh and they'll have the out the whites will have a kind of nutty toastiness, and the yolks will have an aroma of kind of a giblet gravy kind of kind of chicken livery uh aroma, which I find uh quite awesome. And that's due to the myard reactions in it. Um pressure cooking mustard seeds in vinegar. You have to blanch them once or twice to get rid of the dirty taste.
+
+[9:26] Uh then after you pressure cooked them in vinegar, then drain them and toss them in sugar, makes an amazing garnish. Uh horseradish grated, again, blanched to get rid of the dirty flavor, pressure cooked. Uh you can make horseradish purees that taste of horseradish but aren't very pungent. Um I actually use the pressure cooker all the time. And this is something I don't normally do.
+
+[9:45] I would never do this to serve someone in a uh in a restaurant situation because I would just do a long cooked braise. But um pork shoulder, just hacked up with a bunch of uh, you know, you just get like you know your three or four favorite ground dried chilies and uh you know pork shoulder and even a little even, you know, I always have the I always I always use chicken stock because I always have chicken stock in my freezer, but any kind of stock in there, uh, and just very minimal amounts of liquid. The trick with pressure cooking is a minimal amount of uh liquid in there because you're not gonna boil a lot of it off. Uh but they're they're fantastic for you know for all of these things. And then you can get into kind of crazier situations like uh trying to do pressure cooked caramels, um but they they require uh a little bit of tweaking.
+
+[10:32] But yeah, pressure cooker, you're gonna have and not only that, I don't know where you live, but summertime's coming on, and nothing beats uh pressure cooking. You know, sub summertime pressure cooking is awesome because you can you could tear off uh a lot of ingredients in it without releasing a lot of heat into your kitchen because once they're at pressure they have they're very very efficient once they're pressure because remember you have to throttle it way down once they're cooking so I think you're gonna I think you're gonna enjoy it. Cool thanks. Hey thank you. I have one one quick comment for Jack.
+
+[11:01] Oh Jack here you go Jack. Oh all right. What's up with the reverb button? At the end of the show the reverb button always goes off over the credits. Wow it it makes me very happy that somebody noticed that thanks that's just that's just to keep me entertained back here.
+
+[11:17] Yeah. Thanks man. Nice nice. Speaking of thank you very much. I was listening by the way uh quite correct call your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[11:26] That's 7184972128. Alright so back to Nastasha and her coffee. The main point of that was the main point was that is that she'll say something like I don't like that kind of coffee and to you the listener when and I I on purpose knew she was going to do something like this so I didn't go crazy. But to when I go completely bonkers when she says something like that, it's because it's as though she's opening a wound that hasn't even healed yet that she's been stabbing me with the same knife for like two and a half, three months in this that particular one years. So she's her her one of her little joys in life is to set up these situations where she can make me look like a tyrant in public uh through this c kind of careful application of minor irritants over long periods of time.
+
+[12:13] It's not that calculated it's really not. I mean that just comes naturally to you? Yes. Wow. Anyway, hopefully I'll come back with an appreciation for coffee.
+
+[12:21] Is is are you gonna are you gonna see Dwayne? Or hipsters. Yeah, or hipsters. Right. Right.
+
+[12:26] You know, Portland, Portland, many great things have come from Portland. Andy Andy Ricker. I'm gonna see him out. Jack, you gonna see him out there? Jack, you been to that restaurant yet?
+
+[12:33] Pac Pac? No. What the hell's wrong with you? I don't know. Jesus.
+
+[12:37] It's in your hipster part of town, Joe. Wow. Damn. Also, speaking of Reaver Button, I listened to a little bit of the show to check how the iTunes worked. I sound like I'm on Coke most of the time.
+
+[12:47] I'm trying to speak slower today. I uh look I'm telling you guys, I'm not on like the my drug of choice is alcohol. Uh consumed hopefully responsibly on most occasions. Uh what? That's what my drug?
+
+[13:01] My drug is rage. Rage. Yeah, rage. Anyway. Uh so I'm trying to speak a little bit more slowly today.
+
+[13:07] Uh if you guys have any opinions on whether I should speak uh at this pa pace or at my normal pace, give me a call. But I can't help it. Like I'm trying right now. I'm deliberately slowing myself down so I don't sound like I'm I wanna know if people like the personal anecdotes that you that you tal uh say, tell like what? I don't know, just some of your stories I enjoy.
+
+[13:25] I tell you. Like when it's all scientific and food. I mean I told people I told people, you know, boring show. Call call in about waffles, anything. Yeah, we'll talk about anything.
+
+[13:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh no question is too stupid. That should be the new tagline for the show. No question too stupid, no host. No host too smart, no question too stupid.
+
+[13:44] Yes, yes. Alright, there we go. Uh Dave and Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, which was abbreviated here to N T H L Chang. What? Did you get that right away?
+
+[13:54] I didn't. You didn't? Yeah, well, you don't yeah, whatever. Okay. Greetings from New Hampshire.
+
+[13:59] Chris Anderson at the Monitor's Pantry pointed me to your show, and I've been enjoying the podcast. With Memorial Day around the corner. Oh my god, it is around the corner. Nastasha's going directly, by the way, from Portland to Mirvold in Seattle to Japan. And I'm making her fly to all those locations with three.
+
+[14:14] Count them three red hot pokers. Oh, that's fine. Oh, I have a stop in Philadelphia. See? What the hell's wrong with you?
+
+[14:20] Hey, listen, Nastasha, here's the thing. You would I'm I'm sorry, I'm gonna get to your question in in what in one second. Uh uh here's the thing. Uh Nastash and I are the two cheapest people on earth. We are so freaking cheap that even though we're out on the L train, Nastasha's like, how many transfers do I gotta get to take a subway with all my stuff to the to the airport to LaGuardia so I can I'm like, listen, Nastasha, listen.
+
+[14:43] We have a company now. Booker, I want everyone to listen to this. Booker and Dax will pay for you to take a car service to LaGuardia, the airport. Oh wow. That's funny.
+
+[14:58] I was looking for the applause and I found that. Yeah, which is even better. Yeah, but yeah, it would be it would be hard to um it would be hard to kind of understand the deeply ingrained cheapness that Nastasha and I have in general. We're some cheap people. Yeah.
+
+[15:13] Anyway, uh okay, so with Memorial Day around the corner, can you summarize some specific time, temperature, and prep recommendations for low temperature for insurance and other low temperature cookout dishes? Off the top of my head are sausage and beer, uh hamburger, fried chicken, strip steak, ribeye, and others. I have a polycyon circulator and will likely cook, chill, re-therm, and finish on the grill slash fryer, etc. How do you guesstimate minimum return time for a mixed pot of proteins? Is the maximum hold time four hours minus the cook time?
+
+[15:44] Uh and there's another question, but this that which I'm gonna get in one second. In fact, I might do it later because it's gonna take me a million years to answer that one. And Nastasha doesn't want to hear about any science, apparently. But they these questions are from Rob Trapas. And by the way, thank you for telling me how to pronounce your name because there's no way I would have gotten it off the spelling.
+
+[15:59] What would your guess have been? I know, I don't know, but I knew you were gonna appreciate that, and I I did too. Yeah, I yeah, we appreciate that kind of thing. We appreciate it. Unless your name's Smith, in which case I know how to pronounce that already.
+
+[16:10] Okay. Uh so on retherm time, by the way, uh the don't worry. Everything on how long you can hold uh a meat depends on the temperature of the bath. If the bath temperature is extremely low, so if I'm doing so first of all, your first question was cooking for insurance. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's what you do is you use low temperature cooking, which is uh using a water bath or a combi oven or uh CVAP is using a very, very accurate temperature to cook the meat all the way through.
+
+[16:40] Now the meat at this point is not finished. In general, when I do cooking for insurance, low temperature for insurance, I don't do any kind of pretreatments to it at all. All I'm doing is assuring that the center of the meat is cooked exactly where I want it to be, and then I cool it. Okay. And so for chicken breast, it would be 63 degrees Celsius.
+
+[17:01] Uh for chicken leg, it would be 65, 66 degrees Celsius. Uh for uh rib steak, it would be 55 degrees Celsius. Uh and the you know the list goes on and on. For sausage, it would be uh I usually do 60 or 140 degrees. It's a little pink in the center, but I like it that way.
+
+[17:20] Did you like the brats we had? Yeah, I love them. That was 60 degrees. But Pat Lafrida donated to the uh museum of food and drink event we had last week. Uh thank you for people that have uh been to our fundraisers in the past.
+
+[17:29] And Pat LaFrida made up a bunch of delicious brats. We circulated them in Brooklyn, uh Brooklyn Brewery, gave us a bunch of beer, graciously gave us beer to circulate the brats in, and we circulated the brats at uh 140 degrees uh Fahrenheit, 60 degrees Celsius, and then grilled them off. Man, were those good. They're really good. Man, on Martin's potato rolls.
+
+[17:51] What was the name of the mustard we got? That's a good mustard, too. Look it up. That was delicious mustard. Anyway, delicious.
+
+[17:57] Um so what you do is you cook it all the way through, and then when you're finishing them, uh and a lot of times we don't re-therm when you're doing for insurance. We don't re-therm using uh or reheat using low temperature, we just do traditional cooking methods. So if you're doing a prime rib, here's my recommendation for a prime rib. Cook an entire prime rib to 55 degrees all the way through. Now it's medium rare, rare, medium rare in the center.
+
+[18:19] It's good, right? Whole thing's good. Now let it cool down, wrap it, let it cool down, put it into a very hot oven, and just wait for the crust to develop. What you want is that nice crispy crust on the outside, and with a prime rib, actually, you want a little bit of overcooked stuff on the outside. Otherwise, the prime rib doesn't look appetizing when you cut through it because it's all one color of meat.
+
+[18:39] But you're all you need to focus on is delicious crust because the inside is already cooked to where you want it, right? And so that's the essence of cooking for insurance. Duck breast, 57 degrees uh Celsius, about 135 uh Fahrenheit. You want to cook it for 45 minutes, make sure you flatten the breast uh so that the skin will render later, let it cool down, and then all you need to focus on is searing off the skin. And that scare sear searing off the skin will reheat the meat enough to serve it, but it's not gonna overcook it because you're just focused on the skin, so your pan heat can be a little bit higher than it normally would, right?
+
+[19:12] So uh, and basically anything can be can be done that way. Hamburgers, I do it 55 to 57, depending on uh the how squeamish the people are who are eating it. Uh then on a hamburger, uh a hamburger sometimes you could even let cool all the way down. You gotta be a little careful to not let oxygen in the bag, otherwise there's gonna be a problem with uh rancidity when it reheats, especially if it sits overnight, which you don't want to do. Uh and then you know, you you can let it cool down and then deep fry it, and they're great.
+
+[19:41] Uh rib steak, uh, if you're gonna serve it um right away, I would drop the temperature to 50 degrees Celsius, but the not if you're gonna serve it in the health department, kind of but I do that at home. But don't let it sit very long at 50. I will only let it sit a couple of hours at 50 C because there you you're at the borderline where bacteria are gonna start coming back to life. They won't, but you know, you don't want to be in that situation uh too long. But if you're holding something like a sausage above the temperature at which bacteria are dying, and the temperature keeps getting revised down and down, uh, but a sausage you can hold easily at 140 or even uh lower.
+
+[20:15] Uh, you're gonna be killing bacteria, and you can hold it for infinity, basically. You know, the texture will start going down, but you can hold it uh for infinity. Um, how's that sound? Is that good? Good.
+
+[20:26] All right. Uh I'm gonna come back to your other question after uh the commercial break and answer it a little bit later on cheeses. Come back, cooking issues. She'll only come out at night. Nothing is new.
+
+[21:23] I'm seeing the hair before. Watching the wedding. We should sit with you, but our eyes are on the door. What you think you get it for free? The woman is wild.
+
+[21:45] She can't stand by the bird and die you walk. If you're in it for love, you ain't gonna get this. The following program was sponsored by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Summertime is not the only time when barbecue is welcome.
+
+[22:02] At S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, Sam Edwards has been working his magic on ribs, briskets, hip-cooked pulled pork, and much much more. Add a few of their sides, and the party is complete. Entertaining has never been so easy. To order, go to Virginia Traditions.com.
+
+[22:21] The Reaver busting it out. Yeah, man. Call any questions. Oh, we have a caller right now, but let me just say this before. Before we take the collar on, I like myself some Sam Edwards ham.
+
+[22:30] Sam Edwards though does not enjoy the potty mouth. Oh. Does not curse around Sam Edwards. It's true. He's a traditional man.
+
+[22:37] Caller, you're on the air. Well, you know, I hear Nasasha's coming to Portland. So uh I don't actually have a question. I do have one about the uh the pressure cooking stock and account tools cool. Um but I do have a suggestion, uh, which is if you only go to one brewery in Portland, it would be go to the Cascade Brewing Barrel House, which is fantastic, and all they have is sour beer.
+
+[23:01] And it's constantly changing and it's probably the uh the best place. Like in general? Yeah. No, no, like seriously, in in general, I you have so many to choose from. It's the one place.
+
+[23:18] You just keep going back. It changes all the time. There's uh it's like seriously the best place in general. The cheese bar is good too. Awesome.
+
+[23:27] I'll take it outside cascade cascade brewing? Cascade brewing it's a barrel house. It's on it's on Belmont. It's it's just constantly changing sour beer and it's uh it's it's a fantastic value as well. Yeah and they they specialize in sour in sour beers like uh like uh Rodenbach style or or what?
+
+[23:47] Uh well they have they have some Rodenbach style but they'll do they'll do everything from uh from sour wheat beers uh to and and then and then they'll barrel age them and then they'll serve some of them alive from the barrel. Um and uh they'll add I mean the most random fruits and nuts that I haven't uh trying to remember there's one that's like a I can't even pronounce the nut that they put in there. Um but it was it was fantastic. Nastasha likes it actually uh if she's gonna have a beer it's hard to get her to have it frankly which I don't want to bring up right now but but she likes beer with acidity. I do.
+
+[24:25] So she this might may be the place for her and I hope to hear back from her on uh how much she enjoyed it. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah. Uh about the the stock in the in the can though when you're when you're canning what does uh if you if you add any aromatics or uh or uh you know when you add vegetables to it does that or are you talking about just making it with uh with the bones because wouldn't would those break down or something if you left them in a can for a while? Uh if you let them a long time probably.
+
+[24:54] I mean uh they th you know the the ones they were doing they were doing almost like um I mean think about confis are are done in jars all the time and they're delicious and there's there's bones in them. Um so once it stops cooking you're not gonna get a uh that much more extraction. I mean in other words I don't think you're gonna be ripping the calcium out of it if that's what you mean. Um depend 'cause it it's not gonna be acidic. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[25:14] Um and in things like confit that are often jugged or or or can process, um they're fine for for a long period of time. But i I think in modern cuisine they were making just smaller versions of stocks. Uh I I haven't seen that section in a long time so you're stretching my uh my memory banks and when I did get to look at it I I have to this make a confession I don't own it yet so I've only gotten to look at it when I have like pawed through it at the events I've gone to you know what I mean? So it's so and I I mean I know all those guys and I've t I talk to those guys all the time and and and I've read ch you know chunks of it but literally sitting at a library. You know not uh I will own it.
+
+[25:59] It's I'm not I I'm it's worth the money. You know what I mean? But I just don't own it yet. Because imagine if I told my wife, hey honey I spent five hundred dollars on a book what? You know what I mean?
+
+[26:08] Booker and Daxon loan a copy. We'll keep it at the uh what's it called uh so yeah so uh that answer your question? Yeah, yeah, I think it does. Cool. I have a question for the caller actually.
+
+[26:19] Twitter Twitter wants to know if that brewery uses spontaneous fermentation. You know, I believe they have their own cultures now. So they they're it's actually uh in the barrels now. And so when they when they put the beer into the barrel, um, it picks up all the uh lacto bacillus and uh botanamyces and uh whatever else is in there. And so they've got uh they've got different barrels, and then they'll blend some of them together towards the end.
+
+[26:48] And but I'm not sure if that originally came from spontaneous fermentation, if if the cultures are in the barrel. But I I think they are because they have their own um they get like all their all their fruit from around here and they just they just let it go. They they're really, really, really good. Cool. Thanks.
+
+[27:07] Thank you. We also have another caller, guys. All right, caller, you're on the air. Uh hi, David Dandy from Chicago. Hey.
+
+[27:15] Hey, how you guys doing today? All right. Good, good. Hey, I had a meal at Charlie Trotter's last Thursday at the kitchen table. That was incredible.
+
+[27:22] Oh, when when are they closing that down? When are they closing down? Hey, I'm having trouble hearing you. I I think I might need to call back. Uh well, well, what you you talked talk all right.
+
+[27:31] You call back in a sec. I want to hear about the dinner of Charlie. Give a call right back. I will, thanks. Michael.
+
+[27:36] So while he's waiting to call back, Michael Nackin from Herbaboracious uh wrote in and uh thanked us for mentioning the book. We've read the book. I enjoyed the book, and by the way, it gives a well-deserved shout out, he does to iceberg lettuce, which is delicious. I like iceberg lettuce. Who doesn't like iceberg lettuce?
+
+[27:53] It's some crunchy, cool, refreshing stuff. Jack, are you with me? I'm on board. Nastasha even is on board. We're all three of us are on board for for iceberg lettuce and and for Michael Natkin from Urbavaracious.
+
+[28:04] Uh he wrote back if you would like to be on one of our shows, let him know what you think would be a good fit. You cook them on this show if you wanted to. Yeah. We could have a talk. Maybe I don't know if you want to.
+
+[28:13] You could if you if that's what you wanted to do. He just was in New York and didn't stop by the Booker and Dex because he went to uh Aterra, which uh he gave an amazing uh review to the uh have you been there? No. With Mark? This seems like the kind of place you would go.
+
+[28:26] Apparently amazing new place uh platform New York magazine gave it four stars. Uh I haven't been cup because I haven't been but uh he says says very very good things about caller's back by the way all right caller you are on the air hey Dave this is Andy again. Yeah is that better? Can you hear me? Yeah yeah I can hear you what's going on.
+
+[28:45] Good good so Charlie Trotter when are they closing down? They're closed end of August. I think August 31st or something like that. Alright so you're one of the last people to ever eat there. I I think I was and in fact the group that I went with we loved it so much we're gonna try to go again on the very last day that they're open.
+
+[29:01] It was just you know it was it was incredible. I mean being in the kitchen and actually seeing everybody cook and uh you know serving us right there it was just uh really an experience of a lifetime and a couple of my dining companions actually got were able to get up and help help some of the chefs like prepare our prepare some of the dishes near the end. So was it as clean as it is famously purported to be it was pretty clean. Yeah we we ended up staying there until like 1 30 a.m or something like that and they were scrubbing the heck out of that thing by the time they were done. Yeah I was pretty impressed with the cleanliness.
+
+[29:31] Charlie's uh he's he's uh he's kind of got a coarse mouth which is pretty fun he's it seems like he's having fun in the last few months that he's open. So wait so you're saying the floor is clean but his mouth is not that's exactly right yes yeah but that's the important thing you know yeah, exactly. Well, he famously said once that uh you could almost review a restaurant just by looking at its floor in the kitchen. Interesting you know, I think I've heard that now that you say that. Yeah.
+
+[29:55] Yeah, it's kind of one of his better known uh statements. Yeah. Well, I I I like it. You know, I like eating in clean establishments, and that was one of the cleaner ones I've well, I mean, I've never been in a real you know, rarely been in a real restaurant kitchen before, so this was uh but I was I was impressed nonetheless. Nice.
+
+[30:11] Yeah, so they did kind of this like uh this uh beet terrene. And I was wondering what do you think they use? Do they use anything to bind it together or uh how you know I imagine it would be cooked at a fairly high temp, or would you cook the beets beforehand and then just put them in the terrine and let them chill and set, or what do you think? Well, is it served hot or cold? Uh cold.
+
+[30:29] Yeah, so they could bind it with almost anything then. So it's served cold, um uh I mean the classically obviously you could you would bind something like a gelatin. If you wanted to stay um if you want to stay vegetarian, I would use a combination of um if you want it that gelatin like feel, that awesome mouthfeel of gelatin, I would use uh a mixture of kappa carragenin and locust bean gum. The kappa carragenin by itself is brittle and the locust bean gum when you add it to it, um softens it. So it's like jay uh so it's like gelatin, but it still can re melt, so you can use it.
+
+[31:01] If you wanted to heat it, I mean you could use agar. The problem with agar is uh it's not a hundred percent clear, so it's not gonna look as shiny. Do you know what I'm saying? Uh as as as Kappa plus the special LBG that CP Coco serves will use. Uh you could also use uh something called gelan gum.
+
+[31:19] Gelan is not gonna be as flexible if you use the clear one, it's gonna be a little more brittle, but then you could deep fry it. Cool. Yeah, that oh wow, deep fry it. Yeah, that would be incredible. Yeah.
+
+[31:29] Uh the problem with gel-an, if you're gonna use gel-an, is that you have to um you m you have to heat the beets before you pour it on, or you're gonna get some pre-gelling problem. Do you know what I mean? Okay. Uh agar is gonna be a little simpler to work with, but but uh kappa carrageenan LBG, which is uh uh I think Modernist has a has a version of that uh somewhere. Uh that mixture is a really good or just straight up gelatin.
+
+[31:51] Gelatin is great as as long as your kitchen's not going to be too hot and you're gonna serve it cold. Yeah, and I'm not too worried about you know keeping it veggie or vegan. So I think gelatin would probably be the way to go. But yeah, it was really nice. Real golden beet, just gorgeous.
+
+[32:04] So another quick question. I I called in last summer about a ham I was curing in my attic, and unfortunately I went up there a couple of a couple of weeks ago and I've got bugs. Uh I hate that. No. Beetles or mites?
+
+[32:18] I what what was the first one? Beetles. I think they're mites. Uh they well, they're little uh they look to be little grubby type things. Um, you know, they leave kind of a sawdust looking what I assume is some sort of feces, you know, around where they're where they're chewing.
+
+[32:34] Basically, there was a little bit of a taint in up near the bone. Uh there's a little bit of extra skin removed and a little too much exposure. I don't think I got it faulted quite well enough when I first uh, you know, when I first cured it. And so there's always been a little bit of a taint up there, but until a few weeks ago, you know, no sign of any other type of contamination. So you think there's yeah, what do I do?
+
+[32:53] Am I am I just screwed? I mean, or or do you think there's some is there a way I can, you know, cut the rest of it around the bugs, or what do you think? Okay, so you're in Chicago, yeah? I am, yeah. So you're pr probably pretty much like New York.
+
+[33:06] I mean, they have other things like skippers down south that cause problems, but in our kind of uh latitudes, the two main enemies of ham are different varieties of boring beetle and mites. So uh the boring beetle, you'll see holes in the meat just above the fat line. Uh did you see those? Are there holes in the meat? I I couldn't really tell.
+
+[33:29] Like the plate the butcher job wasn't wasn't very good. You know, they they uh there it was clear that the pig was hung from this leg, so there's like a little bit of split, you know, in the tendon by the uh what do you call it? The uh um Gambrel? Right gamble holes, basically. Yeah.
+
+[33:45] Uh so I I haven't had the chance to really inspect it that closely to see where it is. But it's not on the face. It's all up by the uh up by the the bone. I'm hanging it uh, you know, hock hock up. All right, well, I haven't noticed.
+
+[33:57] I mean the well the good news is is that the taint can be cut away and the rest of the ham is is okay. And that uh, you know, I I I've I've had a lot of beetle damage before on hams I've been had hanging, but they were always on the face, but for for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, the face is the portion of meat that the bone projects out of that was attached to the pig. And I usually see beetle damage right at the fat line uh on the face side, right? Not on the not through the skin, because the skin's a lot harder to attack than the face. So the boring beetle damage that I've had has been on the face side.
+
+[34:32] So it's probably not that. If you're not seeing individual bugs, but just kind of dust on the ground, that's probably mites, and those mites that like the dust is actually mites and not feces, it's actually mites. The good news there, brush off the mites and you're and you're good to go. The bad news, the bad news, once you have mites in your attic, you have mites in your freaking attic, and like even if you wait for a year and hang another ham, you're gonna get mites on that ham. So yeah.
+
+[35:01] So like there are things you can treat your your uh attic with that uh I forget what I forget the name of them because I've never I've never tried to do it. I also now have mites in my house, so when I hang hams, I get mites. It's not gonna hurt it. You can brush them off. It's not a problem.
+
+[35:14] Cool. Uh well I think I think I did see some actual little grubby larva looking things, so it's probably not the mice. Oh, but that was probably on the taint section. Oh yeah, good point. Right, right, right.
+
+[35:24] So maybe it's just uh you know, flies or something like that. Right. That could be flies, any kind of fly, like blow fly or anything like that. You know, things like that, like because they'll eat um that section, whereas they won't eat the really cured part. I mean, cut yeah, cut yourself a good section around that that tainted portion.
+
+[35:40] And to be honest, there's not that much meat up there anyway. You're not losing that much. What you're losing is a couple good soups. That's it. Yep.
+
+[35:47] You know what I mean? And the rest of your ham should be fine. Yeah, you can give that up and the rest of your ham should be fine. Yeah, and you know, frankly, it's it's been a good experiment, but you know, for the quality of ham you can get from you know, Finchville and Newsom and stuff like that, not that expensive and pretty freaking incredible. So uh this might be my last stab at it, but at least I can salvage this one.
+
+[36:05] Yeah, so but you know what? Like it's rewarding and there is a learning curve to it. Um, you know, you might want to check out uh Dr. Norman Marriott, uh formerly a m he's emeritus at uh I think of Virginia Tech, has a uh pretty good PDF available online. Uh yeah.
+
+[36:22] Uh with saying that. Yeah, with troubleshooting on uh on on ham curing if you want to give it again. I unfortunately don't have a place that I can hang one, so I haven't I haven't done, but as soon as I get a house out in the middle of nowhere to, you know, take my kids to when I'm not in New York City, I'll be hanging up some pork, believe it or not. Let me believe it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:40] I think I I'm looking at a cur curing chamber too. Uh you know, the cured meats blog, Jason Molinari, I think he's written in a couple of times. He's got uh, you know, some good, good DIY curing chamber tips. So I think that uh hopefully that'll help. Uh I I'd like to try some other type of uh salumi and things like that as well.
+
+[36:56] So it is the age of the DIY, thank God it's an exciting time to be alive. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. Cool. Thanks so much.
+
+[37:04] Thank you. Uh Jack, can we do one more commercial break? Uh sure. Call your questions. What is it?
+
+[37:10] 71849728. 7184972128. Cooking and use. Stealing from the mouse of technology. But I can feed all the power little swimming cups already over.
+
+[37:51] Who's from Seattle? Yeah. What you don't know is that my cousins are from Seattle and we're always doing like the weird Eddie Vetter stuff when we're cooking. By the way, I pre-apologize to everyone for not getting to all I'm not gonna be able to get to all the questions today. Right, Stas?
+
+[38:09] Well, let's do them for Japan. Oh, we're gonna try and do cooking issues from Japan? Can we do that, Jack? Yeah, let's do it. Cooking issues from Tokyo.
+
+[38:18] What? Yeah, we're gonna be in the in the uh in the prep kitchen. Yeah, it's awesome. Okay. Uh Dear Nastasha, Dave, and Jack.
+
+[38:25] Uh love the show. Appreciate how accessible you make it for us to not in the industry full time. I've learned a lot and had a chance to use much of what you talk about. Thank you. Uh this is from Alan Freeman Friedman, by the way.
+
+[38:34] Uh, and he expects us all to be killed by uh by vegan terrorists, but you first, Nastasha. Just saying. I'm curious whether current microwave technology is at all interesting. I have a chance to get a very cheap new microwave with continuous amplitude control rather than traditional pulse width full on, full-off cycling. But it wouldn't be worth the hassle of swapping out and disposing of the old one if there's nothing really new and interesting I can do with it.
+
+[38:56] I've never really used a microwave for anything other than leftovers and melting chocolate, but perhaps there are fun techniques that you could share. Thanks, Alan. And then a little note to Ben A is as much fun as playing with old microwaves was as a rather reckless young geek. I may be more averse to self-immolation these days. Alan.
+
+[39:12] Okay, true story. Having done it several times, please don't chop up your microwave oven. There are dangerous voltages in there. If you defeat the safety interlocks, you can uh nuke your eyeballs with uh microwaves and then they turn white like a cooked egg, never to unwite. Uh yeah.
+
+[39:28] So please don't mess with your excuse me. Please don't mess with your microwaves. Uh that said, I've done it several times. Uh but the the the trick here, for those of you who don't know what the hell we're talking about, when you put a microwave, a standard microwave on half power. Have you noticed this, Nastasha?
+
+[39:45] Do you have a microwave? No. Have you ever had a microwave? You notice how it goes and the light dims a little bit? That's because it doesn't actually change the power level.
+
+[39:57] It just turns the magnetron off and on for a specific amount of time. And it actually takes a little bit of time. The magnetron, by the way, is the thing that's generating the microwaves. That's what it's called. It's called the Magnetron.
+
+[40:08] And it takes a while for the magnetron to heat up and start generating the, you know, to actually start producing appreciable amounts of microwave. So they time the uh the duty cycle, not the duty cycle, the uh the the full cycle, how long that cycle is of to uh take advantage of the fact that the magnetron has a little bit of uh time lag between when you apply power and when the microwaves come out. So uh 80% power, it's on 80% of the time and then off 20. Uh 100% power, it's on 100% of the time. And the theory with microwaves is that that's okay because you're hitting it with full power and then turning it off, and the food gets to cool off and it all averages out.
+
+[40:46] Continuous uh control basic uh is something that allows you to um actually change the amount of power that the microwave is putting out on a continuous basis. I've always wanted one to do very controlled, delicate work on defrosting and things like that, but I've never used one. So I can't say whether or not it's actually any better. The one time I tried to build one, I was trying to do microwave dehydration in a vacuum. Uh and so the idea is is that you use a microwave uh to boil the inside of so microwaves penetrate food, and so you're actually boiling the liquids out on the inside of a product.
+
+[41:24] Um that is advantageous if you're trying to dry it in the presence of a vacuum to instead of freeze-drying, if you don't have it, to do things like uh dehydrated grapes without them having shrunk like raisins because the pro positive pressure of the water boiling out uh keeps them in the proper shape as they're going. The issue is I had a I had a lot of issues, but I wanted to control the power so that it didn't overheat. But my temperature control, my I had a thermocouple in there, and it was arcing like a bastard because as soon as you apply microwaves in a vacuum, a partial vacuum, you get huge plasma balls rolling around and lighting everything on fire on the inside of the microwave. I then was trying to do uh power control on it of my own kind of accord. It was a complete nightmare, horrible.
+
+[42:09] I don't recommend doing it. That said, I've always been interested in actual continuous controlled uh microwaves, but I don't know uh I don't really know. I mean, and what we mean uh all of my microwave tricks are like really crappy things to do to somebody else's microwave at a party at this point, which I can't really I don't really want to talk about on the air. Because there's plenty of websites that'll teach you how to do it, right, Stuzz? Yeah.
+
+[42:28] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um take another question. Uh hey, uh Dave, Nastasha and Jack went to the NRA show recently and scored a deal for a poly science professional circulator frackage for about 50% off.
+
+[42:41] By the way, good tip. If you're going to uh trade shows, the last day of the trade show, people don't want to carry that crap home. So what you can do is make a deal with them, preferably early in the trade show to buy their units before they go home. This way they don't have to take them home, and you can get usually dealer price or sometimes even slightly below dealer price uh at at trade shows. Good little tip.
+
+[43:02] Uh I do not have a vacuum sealer, food stair food saver style, nor chamber. I will receive the circulator soon. I had a couple of questions. Can you leave proteins in the cryovac packaging to cook sous vide? Um perhaps you just give up the ability to pre-sear season and marinate.
+
+[43:16] Okay, the problem with that, uh a lot of um cryovac uh bags that are shipped aren't shipped, they're not cook chill bags, and so you they're not gonna they're not gonna melt in the in at the temperatures you're using in a circulator, but they're not necessarily rated for heating, and so I can't guarantee that there's no sort of plastic, I can't guarantee the plastic safety at temperature. That said, I've done it many times. Um what's the problem with air in the bag while cooking a sous vide or low temp? There's the there's two problems with air. One is that it can cause uh uh an issue where it doesn't heat as quickly and so in shorter cooked things it can um it can lead to spots that aren't cooked as well in very very long cooked things in the middle of the air stops the heat penetration you can get growth of lactobacillus in the place where there was an air pocket uh if it doesn't heat quickly enough and then you can get all flavors the main problem is if there's air in the bag and then you store it for a long time there's oxygen in the bag and you can develop rancidity in the uh in the fat um and that's bad right bad um but in the short term it's not a problem at all uh and finally if I use low temp zip ziplock approach which you can see on cookingissues.com I give uh step by step with pictures uh what limitations safety etc are there with regards to length of time in the bath or temperature used as the bagging is uh not quite a vacuum there are no limitations on time I've done limit I've only cooked up to three days in one but there's no limitations.
+
+[44:52] I wouldn't do anything that's cooked higher than about 70 degrees C. Uh but that's in other words not vegetables. Almost anything else I would cook in a Ziploc bag and it's a great technique. I do that all the time. Thanks I love the show I'm looking forward to checking out Booker and Dax next time in New York City.
+
+[45:07] Nastasha here it is please pick on Dave more on the air so it does not seem so one sided. Drop by the bar and then you'll see it. Wow. Wow what see what you picking on me live? You have to come early I'm mainly at the bar I'm mainly at the bar uh early what I mean we so many other interesting questions uh that I didn't get a chance uh to do today.
+
+[45:27] We have one we're not gonna get any questions this week because of Memorial Day so we can get him. So Colin has a question on pressure cooking marmalades. Marty wants to know about meat analogs uh I you know I still still didn't get to Rob's question on emulsifying sauce uh salts with uh processed cheese and the uh studies that I was looking at where they're making ketchup flavored processed cheese, and we could talk about our ketchup chocolate that we did back in the day. So many, many interesting things that we didn't get to on the air today. I promise to get to them all, hopefully live from Tokyo next week.
+
+[45:58] Cooking issues.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. For more information, visit International Culinary Center dot com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Roberta's Pizza Will in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Well, we're back from Tokyo, right?
+
+[0:26] Yeah. Do you have a good time with him? No, because you're not speaking to the microphone here. You had a good time? Yes, did you?
+
+[0:32] That fantastic time. Crazy. In fact, uh, the only problem is we have so many questions to get to that I don't know if I'm gonna have time to talk about today. We have a one o'clock here. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[0:40] Well, some other time. Since we have two weeks, we were gone for two weeks. It turned out it was impossible for Nastash and I to schedule doing the cooking issue show with our work schedule over there in the Japan because we were working bar basically until right before the uh show, and so we couldn't really prep out for it, right? Yeah. Anyway, calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[0:58] That's 7184972128. All right, so let's wait, is that right? Yeah. Silver remember. I don't even I didn't even listen to it.
+
+[1:05] I just like you just turn on the speech and it just like sprays out of your face and you don't you have no idea. Okay. Well, actually, you should since we don't have time to talk to Tokyo, they should go to the blog. Oh, hey, I restarted the blog again, right? I got uh the first post I did was an apology for not putting a post up.
+
+[1:21] And the second was when Nastash and I went to Jiro's uh sushi along with Mark Ladner. A lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, Jiro loves money. Jiro Dreams of the Money.
+
+[1:30] My favorite part was if the old man or the old man can watch me eat my uh melon, I think sweaty. Well, you know, look, uh for those of you who don't know, this is uh Jiro Dreams of Sushi is the uh is the the movie that's out now. And it's this 86 year old dude. He's eighty-two years old, he got three Michelin stars. Basically, all he does, he wakes up very early, goes to Sakiji Market, you know, fish market in Tokyo, gets the fish, shows up, and his, you know, must be 60s son, right?
+
+[1:58] Yeah. Who must be, he's dreaming of his dad dying so that he could take over the family business. Uh so these guys, along with like a couple other apprentices, are sitting there, and this 86 year old dude is pumping out the sushi every day. But when you show up, it's like 300, 350 dollars a pop, and it's one course every minute for about 19 minutes, and then you they move you to another seat and you eat your melon. And Nastasha and Mark were like like all like bent out of shape like pretzels, worried about like hurrying out.
+
+[2:27] He's like, they want us to leave, they want us to leave. I could give a wrap's ass, whether they want me to leave or not. You know, you know what I mean? It's like if look, if you invite me into your place and I'm spending 350 dollars, it's like, you know, you don't have a right to kick me out in like uh, you know, within 30 minutes. You know.
+
+[2:42] I understand you. Yeah, he's anxiety. He's not a hooker, he's not like you're done, you're out. You know what I mean? The melon, the melon is uh not that I would, you know, know about that.
+
+[2:50] No, yeah. No. Imagine yeah, anyway, whatever. Uh but the quality of sushi was amazing. Go see uh the write up on CookingIssues.com versus this, which is cooking issues the radio show.
+
+[3:01] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh Daniel Seattle writes, hey Nastasha and Dave. Uh love the show.
+
+[3:07] I'm a music teacher and food nerd who loves listening to uh restaurant shop talk. My wife and I throw big dinner parties for twelve to twenty people in our small apartment. Uh, what are the current best practices for making coffee for a whole bunch of people? Usually our guests have at least one small cup each, and usually more, so I shoot for at least uh six to eight ounces per person. Normally you do French press or a pour over or an aero press, but those don't scale up well, even if we do a few batches and transfer them to Thermal carafts, what do you think, Daniel from Seattle?
+
+[3:33] Well, uh, if you're willing to do a pour over uh technique, I think what one thing you could do is switch to a much larger format when you're doing your your pour over. So uh with any of these things, you you're you're it you're into a couple problems. Like fresh coffee is always better than coffee that's uh not fresh, duh. But there's a couple of reasons. One is that the temperature of the coffee uh goes down, like that's the obvious one.
+
+[3:56] And two, um, the aroma of the coffee disperses, and actually the stuff in the coffee itself, the flavors of the coffee, uh, tend to physically change with time after they're brewed. Now, um so some of that can be mitigated by a proper carafe handling. So if you want to use one of your small-scale methods and put it in a craft and have good results, the first trick is to um add a boatload of boiling water to your carafe first. Let it sit for a couple of minutes, cover it, dump it out, add another layer of boiling water, uh, you know, another thing of boiling water to it. Now leave that boiling water in, and now your carafe is very, very hot.
+
+[4:33] Otherwise, even though your carafe is thermally insulated, you're wasting a lot of the heat energy of the coffee just warming up the glass walls of the caraft before you add any stuff to it. Makes sense, right, Sas? Right. Same is true when you're adding liquid nitrogen to a caraft. You you end up losing a lot of the initial batch of liquid nitrogen that you add because you need to chill down the caraft to to a low temperature.
+
+[4:53] So the first thing I would suggest is preheating your craft. Okay. Now, uh the second choice you have is to scale up your mode of production. The problem with most uh scale-ups is that you radically change the actual parameters of your of your brewing. By that I mean either the brew time or the brew water temperature.
+
+[5:13] And either one of those things can really drastically uh influence the flavor uh result in your coffee. So it's very hard to do in a French press unless you were to custom create some sort of a French press operation in a big pot. But I've noticed that whenever you're doing things uh in a large scale, it can still be difficult because the physical time to press something down is going to be different. The physical time to drain something off in a large situation is going to be different. So here's what I recommend.
+
+[5:38] If you're gonna if you're willing to do pour over technique, uh go online and purchase the large, large coffee filters that are meant to go with industrial uh for industrial size like bonomatic coffee machines that make 20 cups at a time. They're much, much larger, a lot more surface area than a standard one. Put it into a colander. Put your grounds into that with a bed depth that's roughly similar to what you would have in a normal pour over coffee situation. Put uh that colander over a larger pot that you can put into a Bain Marie of of hot water and then heat your water for the coffee and pour it all over at once so that your brew time is roughly similar to what your normal pour over uh drip time would be.
+
+[6:19] And that should create and then pour it directly into a thermal uh craft and serve out. And that's probably as close as I think I can get you just off the top of my head, having never done it myself. What do you think? It's good. Good.
+
+[6:30] Yeah. All right. Uh my my iPad, my my stuff is so long-winded that my iPad turns off in between and I have to do it. I think there's a way you can keep it on. There's a way I can keep it on?
+
+[6:39] That Mustacha, you want that for next week? Okay. Which reminds me, I just want to tell listeners that we now have iPhone and iPad compatibility for the live stream, so you guys can uh tune in live on the go. Oh hell. Hell yeah.
+
+[6:52] Yeah. All right. Uh Jonas from Switzerland writes in uh about meat. Hello, Nastasha and Dave. I'm a chef who's been working with the Sous vide technique for some time.
+
+[7:01] In 2011, we tasted various uh foods in Sou vide water baths and published the results we liked in an iPhone app called Sous vide degree Celsius. How the hell do you search for the degree symbol? Crazy. I don't know how you do that. Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[7:11] I have no idea. Anyway, uh recently I've been asked to present low temperature cooking and a science behind it at culinary schools. One of the most stunning examples when presenting it, uh presenting the sous vide method is of course low temperature cooking for long periods of time, as in uh spare ribs or beef shins, veal neck, etc. One question that has often come up, I don't know how to answer, is up to what temperature or for how long do uh collagenase enzymes remain active uh when cooking sous-vide? Uh okay, and then he brings up two articles.
+
+[7:37] One is studying the effects of uh heat on meat proteins by Tornberg, 2005, which says at temperatures between 53 and 63 degrees, the collagen denaturation occurs, uh followed by collagen fiber shrinkage. And then on 497, it quotes an article from 1970 that shows that collagenase, which would be an enzyme, by the way, ACE's enzyme always, and collagenase would be an enzyme that breaks down collagen, could remain active in the meat at cooking temperatures below 60 degrees, whereas uh faster heating um up to 70 or 80 Celsius, they were inactivated. But then uh to contradistinct to that, it says in the abstract for uh effect of prolonged heat treatment from 48 to 63 on toughness and cooking loss of pork, which is a recent article, uh, the residual activity of cat hespin, which is actually a different enzyme, by the way, uh in uh low temperature, long time treated pork was mainly affected by temperature, showing the highest activity between 58 and 63 degrees Celsius. So, what's up with that? How can we uh go for that?
+
+[8:32] Uh you know, how can we go and how long does it have an effect? Is it 60 degrees, 63 degrees? Can you help me sussing this crap out? Best witches from Switzerland Jonas. Okay, first of all, uh for those of you that couldn't follow a damn word I was just saying.
+
+[8:44] The argument here, the question is: in low temperature cooking, is the majority like there there are enzymes that are still working in low temperature cooking, and those enzymes break down various proteins in uh in the meat, okay? And the two main protein fractions we're looking to break down are connective tissue fractions, which is mainly collagen, uh, and uh muscle uh protein uh portions like actin myosin, the actual contraction portions of muscles. Now, collagenase is an enzyme that is present, uh it causes awesome stuff that Nastasha likes to look up on the internet like gas gangrene. It's the thought of like a gangrenous lesion and uh is sending Nastasha into queasy results now. Now look, uh yes, these enzymes uh keep working, and enzymes, especially protein breakdown enzymes have a huge uh impact on the texture of fish uh that's cooked low temperature, and it's why fish can go pasty and mushy.
+
+[9:39] And for a long time it's been theorized that um these enzymes are also a lot of what's going on in tenderizing low temperature cooked meat. I just don't believe it. I just don't think so. I think it has some effect, right? But I think it's not the majority uh of effect.
+
+[9:54] Furthermore, there's two main categories of enzymes you're looking at here. Collagenase enzymes, like I say, break down collagen, but in the recent literature, they're very, very uh they're they're not very often mentioned at all. The others are different, they're cat hespins, which break down the um break down the muscle proteins, and those are in uh they're contained with normally in intact muscle inside the lysosomes, can be released on cooking, and there's recent studies on that that they are released and they may maintain some activity, and so they can uh they can probably act towards muscle protein um um you know tenderness, but it's probably not the majority of the effect. The majority of the effect in low temperature cooking is probably just a thermal uh degradation of collagen over long periods of time at elevated temperatures. Uh that that is my feeling.
+
+[10:41] Also, these articles are, you know, there are a lot of them that are done are review articles, and so you it's like you're comparing apples and oranges when you're comparing temperatures because they're denaturing proteins in different environments, uh, you know, purified or not purified in different muscles and the presence of different fat, they're measuring different temperatures, i.e. the temperature they're cooking to versus internal temperatures. And so it it's really impossible. You're comparing uh apples and oranges, and and I read them and um they didn't make uh too much uh in other words, I wasn't putting too much of a of a weight in it. Is that makes sense, Nastash?
+
+[11:13] Uh okay, but when I was researching this stuff, I I did look up a new there's a new enzyme out that it's called uh colla uh collagenolytic protease MCPO1 that comes from a deep sea bacteria that can break down proteins at low temperatures, like in the fridge. So that might be something new to look at because that's a very recent uh that's a recent thing. That's uh uh you know in 2012, I think. The other thing is is that uh the muscles that these guys choose to do their tests on, and this is the problem with all meat tech all meat texture uh things, they always choose muscles that freaking suck. Like the two articles that you uh put in, they use um a lot of them uh uh semi-tendinosis muscle, which is like eye of round.
+
+[11:55] Sucks. It's a crappy muscle. And the reason they choose that crappy muscle is because it doesn't have a lot of variation in the muscles, so it's easy to run tests on, but it's not an accurate representation of what's going to happen when you're actually cooking meat that you would rather eat. Okay. Uh now, uh another thing, uh oh, by the way that college collagenase enzyme uh enzyme thing you that you cited, and it was cited a couple times.
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+[12:18] Uh, it was done in 1970. It's really old research, and then uh I read some more recent research that said, you know, well, I don't know that that's still, you know, that's not, I don't think it's really a current research. But I found this awesome website that you should all go to right now www.beefresearch.org, beefresearch.org, beef research.org. And look for a ranking of beef muscles for tenderness. It's from the University of Nebraska.
+
+[12:42] And it's an awesome PDF, basically, where they they tell you in very fine detail what the problems are with running studies on tenderness and what tenderness means and the difference in tenderness when it's measured by a machine versus when it's measured by a person, and it ranks uh the different muscles, which is awesome. And then they have a supplementary website, which is freaking fantastic called bovine.unl.edu. Now, if you go to that uh PDF I told you, they mistakenly put a www in front of uh bovine.unl, and then you you can't get to the page. Forget the www. No www, it does bovine.unl.edu.
+
+[13:21] And they have a three-dimensional cow with the muscles on it and the meat and the skeleton, and and and you can click any one and get any one particular muscle and spin it around in 3D and like go in and out. And they have videos of a butcher breaking down every single cut that they have in that thing. So it's a fantastic resource. I can't believe I haven't seen it until now. I hope that all of anyone who's listening here is well finished listening to us.
+
+[13:46] And then after we're done talking, go uh and and check check that out. And first of all, Nebraska, they know their meat. Am I right? Nebraska meat? Mean, come on, Nebraska.
+
+[13:55] Possibilities? Endless. That's the state model. Oh, yeah. Did you know that?
+
+[13:58] No. Yeah. Shout out to Angela Gabots, our uh our Nebraska uh intern of all times, all times. Okay. Uh question three from Paul uh about invertase from uh it's an enzyme heavy show.
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+[14:10] Enzyme heavy show. And remember, ACE means enzyme, people's peoples. All right, hello, Nastasha and Dave. What? No jack?
+
+[14:16] No jack? Anyway. I would like to ask about invertase. I only really know of it being used in those terrible cherry cordial bonbonds, but I'd like to know if it could be used in interesting ways in other applications or if there's a similar product that can similarly break down a less or non-sweet sugar to be used in a more savory application. P.S.
+
+[14:34] huge fan, thank you. Great info that I'll be using one day after I finish my upcoming training with Daniel Balud. Well, good job working with Daniel Balud, badass, well, you know, one of those, you know, major, major badasses, Daniel Balud. Okay. Uh from Paul.
+
+[14:47] Okay. Here's the thing. Invertase for all of you that don't uh know what's going on, invertase is an enzyme that breaks down sucrose, which is uh a disaccharide, right? It's got a fructose uh and a uh uh glucose, right? And and basically the invertase breaks that down into glucose and fructose.
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+[15:06] Now, uh invertase uh in invert sugar, uh, which you can buy as trimoline or things like that, are very useful in uh confectionery because it can minimize or prevent crystallization or affect you know uh minimize the crystal size, uh increase the moisture holding capability of uh of a product. So it's it's good, it's good stuff, it's useful. Now, uh the way this is used in bonbons, the terrible cherry bonbons that you're that you know you refer to, is you make a fondant. Now, fondants are uh crystallized, they look like solids, but what they really are is a network of sugar crystals with a sugar syrup in between those crystals, right? And when you add the invertase to that and then coat that uh fondant in uh chocolate, let's say.
+
+[15:49] Uh what happens over time is uh the sugar the sugar is broken down into invertase, it loses its crystal structure and reverts to a semi-liquid syrup, right? So what you're using is the fact that um is that you you have this syrup that's being bound with sucrose crystals, you break down the sucrose, and then you have this liquid y center. All right. Now, uh the invertase is used for for other things, and so uh I looked up that, I looked up the website for those guys, and it says it's used uh you can make invert with it, which is better than acid uh, you know, acid-catalyzed uh inversion, which is what you normally do when you're making cooking sugar because it's more controlled, etc. etc.
+
+[16:25] Sugar, if you make if you invert sugar that way, it's less apt to turn brown when cooking as opposed to acid-catalyzed inversion. Uh it's also used uh in fruit juices and jams uh to increase sweetness and increase resistance to crystallization and things like that. Okay. Uh but you can't really, I think it really only works on glucose and sucrose. I don't know of any other enzymes that would do that.
+
+[16:46] If you wanted a slowly liquefying center, uh what I would recommend is uh using an enzyme that breaks down pectin uh or breaks down any hydrocolloid at a relatively slow rate. So I would get a uh uh pectin that sets relatively quickly. Stir in some uh SPL to it, uh set it and get it cold fast so that pectinase doesn't break it down too quickly, then you could enrobe that pectin thing in something, and then the pectin would dissolve over time and you get a liquid or something like that where you broke down a hydrocolloid structure instead of a sugar structure. Does that make sense to us? You could also probably do that with something that breaks down a starch the same way that uh undercooked uh like uh undercooked like custard things can liquefy over time if the starch gets broken down.
+
+[17:28] Anyway, those are my thoughts. Eh? Take it with take it, take it or dump. Okay. Uh anyway, let's take our first commercial break and come back.
+
+[17:35] Call your questions too, 718497-2128. That's 7184972128, the cooking issue. If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom. That's why the French Culinary Institute has evolved into the International Culinary Center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills.
+
+[18:05] You come to understand and to feel the whole culinary world. You have to network. You have to observe the true meaning of world class performance. You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the International Culinary Center's campuses in New York, California, and Italy, we will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at a very high speed.
+
+[18:26] The International Culinary Center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian wine management, culinary technology, and food writing. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. Jack, was that you? That was me. Give me some whole culinary world again.
+
+[18:45] Give me some Oh man. My radio voice. I love that. That's low. That's good.
+
+[18:52] That's good business. Guys, real quick before you go on. Uh so we were at Bonaroo covering the event this weekend, and the gastropod truck dude said hello. Oh, Jeremiah Bullfrogs? Yeah, I go up to him, I'm like, hey, can we interview you for Heritage Radio?
+
+[19:03] And he's like, Oh my god, you're the voice. It's cooking issues. You're the producer. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[19:09] Listen every week. Really? Are we on the air right now? Yeah, we're on the air right now. Yeah, this is how we do.
+
+[19:13] We talk on the air. That's how the radio works. Uh yeah, we're a big fan of the Jeremiah Bullfrog. We did an event with him maybe a year ago. Almost exactly a year ago.
+
+[19:22] Uh in uh in Miami. And uh I love like the crew that comes to uh frequent the uh his uh gastro gastropod truck turns out to be like a really great crew of customers. We really had a great time at their event. I like loved the crowd in Miami. I thought they were really they're really fun anyway.
+
+[19:39] Uh so you interviewed him, what do you use it for? Uh we did a piece on Bonaroo that will be up on the website today. Is Bonaroo the thing with the people, the young people who they meet each other and and the ladies like I'm gonna rock your world? No, it's the guys who threw Googamoga. It's the big music festival in Tennessee.
+
+[19:53] We have a call coming in though, so what's the one I'm talking about? Batteroo? The one where people get high? No, the one on the wall on the on the on the like the one sheets on uh on the street, and it's like I like to I like to mess with chickens. Yeah, I know that's bad to be a good thing.
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+[20:09] Badaroo something. Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Hello. Hi, I'm Chris from the uh UK. Hey, how you doing?
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+[20:17] Good thanks. Yeah, doing all right. All right. Good. Uh I have a question on egg free custards and egg free meringues as in Ilflaton.
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+[20:26] Right. How would you best go around it? Hmm. Well, uh uh okay, so for a meringue like texture, you're gonna want to use uh you basically you just need something that's gonna be a whipping agent, it's gonna hold, right? So you so you can use um a protein that acts in a similar way to egg whites, and so for that I I would use something like a VersaWhip, and you can get either one that's soy based or one that's uh casein based.
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+[20:53] I mean way based, rather, not casein, way-based. So uh and you know, those ones they they whip that when you're getting one of those things, the the issue is is that they sometimes take a long time to whip up and they don't cook off the same way. So they're not gonna hold their structure when they're done the way that uh a meringue will. But for uh like a very quick serve something, like if you just want that texture, uh, it'll work. Um a custard uh or on a meringue that's gonna hold.
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+[21:21] I mean, that the the the issue is if you're wanting to go egg-free, presumably it's to go vegan. So I can't recommend something like a gelatin or some other set. You could it's not the vegan that's the problem, it's an egg allergy. Ah, okay. Well, I mean, you could then set if you were going to whip something with a Versa whip, you can then set it with gelatin so that it holds after it chills down, and then you could have something that holds up over time.
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+[21:43] Or you could use an alternative if you did want to go vegan, you could use an alternative hydrocolloid that would hold the meringue over time, and then what you're just doing is using the VersaWhip as a uh whipping aid, uh you know, as a as a you know, foaming agent. So you then you would you would have a meringue to hold over time. If you wanted to do something that was going to be heat uh stable, like if you were gonna cook off a meringue in a in a in an oven, then you'd have to probably go a little more uh hardcore because you'd need a hydrocolloid that could withstand um uh heat. And so for then you you might be able to move to something like an agar, uh, but you'd have to make sure that it whips up before it cools down. Or if you're or if you want really heat stable, because agar will melt, you'd have to go with a gel an, but you'd have a real problem.
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+[22:26] I've tried doing it, whipping up gel-ans, um whipping up gel-an uh gels, uh you know, so that they're stable before they set. Another alternative to whipping to setting a gel uh in a foam is to use a slow setting um sodium alginate uh foam. I don't like to do it, I've done it. The problem is is that I don't think sodium alginate tastes very good, right? So, what you would do is you would use a whipping agent and uh sodium alginate, and then you'd whip it into a foam, and then you'd add a little calcium at the last second, and then it it would, you know, uh it would set into a foamed gel.
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+[22:59] You know what I mean? And and that and that one, uh I've done it. Uh you have to be careful to not be able to taste the alginate, right? Uh the other for the custard, um I I'd have to do uh I'd have to do some research. I've never thought of uh of eggless custards.
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+[23:18] I mean, the way that I would the you know, off the top of my head, right, you can without egg set things into custard like textures using something like iota carrageenin, especially in the presence of milk, very small amounts of iota caraginin will produce uh kind of a custardy texture. The problem is iota is a little elastic, so you want to have it just set, and so you would use iota and maybe a little bit of kappa carragaenin to make it into uh have a little more of a break to it as opposed to iota, which is gonna be a little more rubbery. But I've had, you know, Wiley's done uh both pectin-based sets and um iota slash kappa caragenin mix based sets of custards that I've thought were uh very very good, you know, almost like a panicata texture. You know what I'm saying? Uh and yeah, and th those can be totally achieved with uh various uh hydrocholores, but I would stick with something kind of simple like carrageen is relatively simple to work with.
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+[24:10] And um mixtures of i the great thing about iota is also that uh it'll reset uh after it after it breaks a little bit, but uh a mixture of mainly iota at a very low concentration and um and a little bit of kappa will give you a nice uh custardy uh texture. Not you know, you you'd have to adjust the firmness a little bit, you know what I mean? But you could get there. And those are all available, I would assume, from the uh the modernist pantry folk. Probably I I I don't know.
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+[24:36] And then if you needed some thickening of it, right? If if if it didn't feel thick enough with whatever ingredients you were adding, I would thicken it with a s I wouldn't try to thicken it with the you know where it's like inc increase the creaminess of it with uh the iota and the kappa, then you would move to more of a thickening agent, something like an LBG or locust bean, or just a traditional something make it thicker, like add more of something that's uncuous to it. You know, you don't need to go to hydrocholid route on that. But that's that's the way I'd uh approach it. Okay, thank you.
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+[25:03] All right, have uh and uh let us know how it works. Thank you. We'll do. All right, thanks a lot. All right.
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+[25:08] So uh Paul K uh wrote in on meat cooking whole mussels. Hi, Dave. I was at an event a while ago where I saw a steak, I think an entre coat being prepared on a barbecue, by which I think he means grill. I think he means grill, like as far as our our terms. Anyway, uh in a way I'd never seen before.
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+[25:23] Rather than cutting the steaks and then cooking them, an entire cylinder of beef was uh barbecued, rested out, and only then cut. It seems it was incredibly efficient, as the result was very beautiful. Every steak had a perfect gradient from crusty on the lateral edge uh to a disc that was essentially raw in the center. Normally you only see the sort of gradient once you cut into the steak. One, is this technique well known and if so does it have a name?
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+[25:42] Two, what cuts of beef would you recommend for this techniques? And three, do you have any tips on how to make this work well? When cooking four kilograms of beef at a time, I can imagine that cock-ups can be expensive. Cock ups is a good way to say mess ups. I like that because it's kind of almost dirty, but not.
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+[25:56] Uh I guess that it'll be critical to start with beef at room temperature. Thanks, Paul. Okay. Uh now when you're when you're uh dealing with I mean it's uh I mean essentially what they're doing is roasting the meat on a grill. Right?
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+[26:07] It's basically roast meat. Think about like prime rib. Prime rib is delicious that way. So basically, what you're not basically, what you're doing here is using the grill to to instead uh roast something. And I I think the the most um similar idea would be like a rotisserie where you pull off something that's rare.
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+[26:26] You know, I mean before before it's cooked all the way through, because then it would just be done manually. I would assume that these people who are using the grill were constantly turning the meat, and it's fundamentally different from a long when most people say barbecue, what they're referring to is long, long, long-term cooking, where the meat's took cooked totally all the way through right on a grill versus just straight grilling where the meat can be pulled off at any dunness, including rare in the middle, and you're just getting a nice crust on the outside. When you're doing it, you could use something that would one would normally barbecue with, right? I.e. a lower temperature, but just do it less long, in which case you're treating it more like a roast.
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+[27:03] But you'd need to get the temperature high enough to get a crusty uh finish on the outside. Does that make sense, Nastasha? But I'm I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So you write back in, tell me more about it, kind of exactly kind of what's going on and where it falls in the continuum between grilling and barbecuing, or whether or not I have the right idea about uh what you're what you're referring to. Because I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, so I don't want to you know go the wrong way, right, Stas?
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+[27:26] Yes. She's like, I don't really care, whatever. Uh okay. Uh Aaron Lawton writes in from Portland, Maine on chili oil and botulism. All inclusive greetings.
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+[27:35] I like that. Doesn't want to, you know, doesn't want to make any statements on who may or may not be here. Just the all-inclusive greetings. Everyone but Jack it says, actually. Anyway.
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+[27:45] Uh it doesn't really. Uh I listen to your show every week via iTunes and appreciate the distraction it serves. Uh distraction. It's good. Uh I have long stewed over questions about chili oil.
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+[27:54] My wife underwent a heart transplant a couple of years ago, and food safety is a preeminent concern in our cooking. Hey, my mom runs the heart transplant program, pediatric heart transplant program at uh Columbia Presbyterian. My mom, you know, hardcore badass, she's the cardiologist there. So uh, you know, uh heart transplant uh patients close to my close to my well- I wasn't even thinking about that. That's dumb.
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+[28:16] Anyway, uh uh, you know, anyway. I think it's something I think about. Um food, which recently uh frequently calls for chili oil. I would like to make the oil myself due to my cheapness. Something we also share.
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+[28:30] Cheapness. Cheapness. Uh all of us here are really cheap bastards, right, Stuy? Yeah. Yeah, really cheap, really cheap.
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+[28:36] She'll walk to the airport rather than take a car, even if I'm paying for it. Uh however, I've been overcome with fears of botulism. We are both in our twenties and have years of cooking eating ahead of us. Can you allay my fears of contamination and provide advice on botulum-free chili oils? Uh the chili oil I tried came from Land of Plenty by Fuchsia Dunlap.
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+[28:54] By the way, Fuchsia Dunlap, good friend Harold McGee was showing around China. Apparently, Fuchsia Dunlap, badass. That's what I hear. Although I don't own her book. Uh which only used heated peanut oil and dried pepper flakes with optional ginger.
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+[29:05] Uh Barbara Tropp also has a recipe which adds orange zest and garlic, uh, Chinese black beans and sesame oil. Uh okay. So look, the danger here is with the garlic. Uh the the problem with with botulism in oil is this. Uh if you add something like a fresh herb or garlic, and garlic grows in the ground and frequently has uh contam botulism contamination in it.
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+[29:25] Uh when you're cooking the uh even if you cook the garlic off in the oil, enough water remains in the garlic to um uh allow botulism to grow in it, right? And uh when you have uh botulism in uh oil, uh in there's no off taste, there's there's no nothing. So what happens is even if you heat the garlic, um, you let it cool, you store it not in the fridge, and the botulism spores, because you've killed all the vegetative bacteria, the bacteria that are actively operating, the spores regerminate and create botulism toxin, which then it's very bad. Very bad, bad. Uh so how do you get around this?
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+[29:59] If you don't use the garlic, you're fine, right? Also, if you remove the garlic from the oil and there's only completely dried items in the oil when you're done, like dried pepper flakes, as long as you haven't reconstituted them with water, uh, then you should be okay. But if it makes you nervous, store in the fridge every uh, you know, store in the fridge, and if it gets more than a couple weeks old, you can reheat the oil to 80 degrees Celsius for 10 to 15 minutes or 20 minutes for a meat product. And botulism toxin is heat labile, uh i.e. it's it's destroyed by heat.
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+[30:36] So if you heat uh the oil uh enough times, right, or high enough, you can actually destroy the botulism toxin that is already present. So the rules are uh store in the fridge. Uh if you store for a long time, um you can reheat. If you if when in doubt, throw it out. Uh also if you use only dry products, uh you're in a much better uh position.
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+[31:00] And thirdly, if you add some acid to the ingredients that you're uh cooking that have water in them, the acid, citric acid, if you don't use ascorbic because ascorbic will get destroyed by the heat as well. Uh use citric acid if it's acidic enough, the product won't support uh the growth of botulism. So low water, uh low uh you know, high heats, all these things will help protect. Does that make sense to us? Yes.
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+[31:22] Okay. All right. Caller, you are on the air. Hi guys, Ben from Minnesota here. How are you doing?
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+[31:28] Thanks for taking my call. Uh question about bagels and pretzels and um the Y solution that I might be dipping them in. Okay. Um I know you had kind of a nasty experience with lye and want to avoid that myself. I I would avoid it.
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+[31:46] I would avoid that experience. I would yeah. I was reading a paper, it looks like a lab experien uh experiment assignment possibly from Ohio State pretzel study, it's called. If you look that up, you might find it on the net. Uh and they're using a two percent, which I assume is just is that 100% household lie if I buy that at the hardware store, is that what I'm using?
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+[32:11] Okay, uh uh uh we'll get it we'll we'll get into the hardware store. It is I mean look, if you go to the hardware store, 99% of uh the stuff that you buy, unless you're buying something that's packaged as lye. Uh it's packaged as 100% household lie. There's no other ingredients listed, but I'm you know, I'm wondering if there's a you know food grade lie that's made and where I would even get that. There is a food grade lie that's made.
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+[32:38] You can get it at professional baker supplies. Um okay, now that that being said, I have used the hardware store stuff. But I I I can't recommend it because uh uh I I believe it's possible for it to have a heavy metal contamination and stuff like that. So I I I don't recommend using it. I recommend getting the food grade stuff from the um uh you know, from a uh a professional baker supply.
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+[33:04] Really don't use um like some people have asked me, can I just go use drain cleaner? No. Uh first of all, there's like all kinds of weird stuff added to drain cleaner. Um just you know, stay away from it, like aluminum flakes and all sorts of nasty weird stuff. Um so you know, look, if you want to run a couple of experiments with lye, then you know, if you get the 100% lye, I wouldn't you I would I I can't recommend that you use it.
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+[33:28] I would recommend you get the food grade stuff, but as an experiment to see what happens, it works. Um do you have kids in the house? I do. That's why it's uh high in the garage, tied up real tight, you know. Yeah, but you know, uh when I uh, you know, for those of you I don't know, I was doing a lot of experiments with uh lye and uh different bases, especially with in things like pretzels, but also for nyxtamalization and for the hardening of uh you know a lot of experiments.
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+[33:56] Right. Well that was another route I could go. I've got uh some Mexican markets around. Is that something that would be sold there and as what, you know? Well they they have cal they have calcium uh yeah, they they have uh cal, which is, you know, um which is calcium hydroxide, but it's just not the it's not the same and it has a different taste.
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+[34:11] Uh you you could use it. Anything basic is gonna you know, or you could go the route that uh McGee does where he cooks baking soda uh to convert it to you know the more basic uh form um and and and then use that. Lye is great for it. I mean I have to say, lye works great. Um and for those of you that you know pay we if you have a bagel, actually you can just boil, it doesn't need the extra browning.
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+[34:35] It'll taste more like a pretzel if you add the lye. So most I mean some some b bagel recipes I've seen have some baking soda in the boiling water and some don't. Um but you know, unless you need the extra browning and that little uh taste that um that you get from the the basicity, uh then um you know you you don't need it. But the main water. Yeah, but the main flavor that you're getting in a pretzel from the boil out, first of all, you get that dark brown pretzel note, because when you increase the uh the alkalinity of the of the surface, you increase the rate at which the myard reactions happen.
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+[35:08] You get that characteristic brown pretzel color. But also the characteristic flavor of a pretzel is uh having to do with that basic, that basic outside that so when you crunch into a pretzel, if you in your mind think uh kind of it I I don't want to hesitate to even say this because it makes it sound bad, but soapiness, you know what I mean? It's like but it's that flavor of uh basicness that is um what makes a pretzel great. Uh and so that in the addition in addition to never adding fat to people who add uh you know, if you add fat to your pretzel, I have a problem with you in your pretzels. You know me, so like for instance, rolled gold.
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+[35:45] Yeah, to the dough itself. I mean it's no it's an abomination. It turns into a cracker, it's horrible. You know what I mean? Uh it's it's really makes me angry.
+
+[35:52] And I could if you hand me a pretzel, uh, and certain manufacturers who make so my first rule is pretzels are twisted. They have to be twisted. If it's not twisted, it's not a pretzel. I call them pretzelloids or like you know, non-pretz, but pretzel style things, right? But they're not freaking pretzels because uh for me, one of the great joys of pretzels is the textural difference between the different parts that bake differently uh because of the shape and break apart in your mouth differently because of the shape.
+
+[36:16] All right, boom. So that's it. That's it. Pretzel is pretzel shaped. Uh secondly, uh it and I I'm talking mainly about hard pretzels now.
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+[36:24] I don't have that much experience with this with soft pretzels. I'm I'm talking hard pretzels. Hard pretzels, if if you add any oil to the uh recipe at all in the in the dough, it takes on a cracker texture, it's not a pretzel anymore. It's like a crack, it's like a cracker sole or something. It's not right.
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+[36:40] You know, at Bachman, the company, they make a pretzel that you would looks like a real hard pretzel, but is in fact uh got a crackery texture because they you know they I guess they took a hint from rolled gold, you know, or something like that, who adds an abomination like amount of oil to their thing. Best pretzel that I've ever had in my whole life is Martin Bru Martin's brother's uh pretzels by far the best pretzels that you can get them over the mail order they're made by Mennonites they literally sit around singing hymns all day and making pretzels but they're the I mean not but but but you know probably because of the fact that they it's a religio religious meditation thing for them they make fantastic pretzels you ever had those things I have not no I uh the kind I was thinking of making are more like the you know like the ballpark big software chewy yeah yeah large big chunks of salt in the top you know yeah though I mean those are you know those are those are those are a valid product I'm not saying anything against uh a so a good soft pretzel I love a good soft pretzel especially with mustard I gotta have mustard on mine no mustard no no soft pretzel for me no that's good too yeah I agree yeah so uh so yeah so uh for that also remember when you're going to the baking supply you can also get the pretzel salt which is very nice because it's uh it yeah because you can't get that at the regular store. No, but the same place it's gonna have the lie will probably also have the pretzel salt. Okay. All right thanks uh one quick one about blending mixed drinks I was uh I'm not a cocktail guy at all but I was making margaritas the other night they blended up just fine then I made a crystal light version for my kids with no alcohol obviously and it turned into like a slush ball in water.
+
+[38:10] Is the alcohol doing something to keep the ice and the water together that you can't get without just blend it wrong. Hmm I don't uh I I don't know. Um I mean alcohol is gonna melt the uh the ice in a different way and it's gonna make it blend kind of uh faster. But I mean, obviously, you know, people make uh people make slushies all the time that are non-alcoholic in the 711. Right.
+
+[38:37] Yeah. Smoothies work fine. Yeah. Maybe a fluke. Yeah, maybe a fluke.
+
+[38:42] I don't know. Maybe I don't know. I doubt there's anything in the crystal light. Crystal light is actually has very little body, and maybe that's the problem. Maybe if it had more sugar in it, you might have more problem with a sugar free because you're not modifying the uh I maybe that's it.
+
+[38:54] Maybe try it with uh something that's got a I could try it just with the regular uh lime juice and sugar up this time without be the fact that the crystal light has no sugar in it, and it could be that the crystal light has something in it to mimic sugar. Um sometimes it in in um things that contain uh whatever crystal light contains now, it used to be aspartame. Um because there's no bodying effect from um aspartame and it's used in such small quantities, they often to sodas would add bodying agents to add back some of the feeling like there had been sugar there. And I don't know, maybe that has something to do with it too. I don't know.
+
+[39:29] But yeah, but give it a shot with uh real honest to God sugar. I will. Alright, cool. All right, thanks. Love you, Phil.
+
+[39:35] Bye. Uh Jack, let's take one more quickie commercial break, come back, and finish out cookie dishes. In case you're wondering what's up with the weird meditation music, it's called Alone in Kyoto by Air. Oh nice. Well we're done with all that music.
+
+[40:29] Thank God I was not alone in Kyoto. I was hanging with my with my family. Had a fantastic time checking out all the temples. I highly recommend them. Okay.
+
+[40:36] Uh Tom Fisher writes in. Howdy, Dave, Nastasha. Nastasha. Who am I? An idiot?
+
+[40:41] Nastasha and Jack. Uh about finally. What? Said hi to me. Yeah.
+
+[40:46] Yeah. First first call, I think. Yeah. ISI about the ISI, which is the EC or ISI, the whipped cream uh makers. Is this the one?
+
+[40:53] Yeah. Okay. Uh I'm looking at ISI whippers and just grabbed a gourmet whip on eBay, but the head is filthy and needs new seals, etc. It looks like the gourmet whip and the thermo whip share the same head, while the cream whip profit has a different head. Is there any real difference among the models insofar as cooking applications are concerned?
+
+[41:10] Thanks for keeping it awesome, Tom Fisher. Okay, listen. Little secret. I have a bunch of different models, all different types, and all the heads are completely interchangeable. They look different, but they all fit.
+
+[41:19] They all have the same exact screw thread from the head onto the uh onto the um what do you call it? Canister. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So they all work.
+
+[41:27] And they all have the same exact through screw thread, uh, with one exception, and it's not one of the ones you mentioned, of screwing uh the cartridge, the thing that screws the cartridge in to make it go. They're all the they're all the freaking same. Now what can be different is the screw-ons, I think for the uh for the uh whatever the tip is called. I think that those might be different, but as far as interchanging canisters and they're all same, all same. Right?
+
+[41:50] Uh-huh. Same. Uh and I don't know if there's any real difference. I mean the thermo whip obviously is different because it keeps things warmer hot because it's uh uh col cold rather because it's insulated, but other than that, not much anyway. So it's all good.
+
+[42:01] Mix and match, but don't tell the good folks at ISI that I told you so. Matthew Leaf at Landhouse writes in. Hey Nastasha and Dave. Hope everything's going well with all your projects. Wednesday this week, I'm serving some snacks at a charity gala for 500 people.
+
+[42:12] The dish I'm serving is short rib sliders with cheddar cheese sauce. The cheddar cheese is a whiz I made using sodium citrate and Iota carrageen and based on Mirvold's mac and cheese salad. I'm thinking for large production like this, it would be cool to have the cheese sauce and squeeze bottles for service. And my idea is to keep the squeeze bottles in a steam table water bath set up. Do you think this would be hot enough to keep the cheese liquefied?
+
+[42:30] Would it be better to put the bottles directly into the water section of the steam table or to set up a hotel pan with water above the steam section? I was hoping to get your advice on this as I don't know if I'll have a chance to test it out prior to the event. Okay, yeah, it works. I've done it. Uh what the one problem you're gonna have is uh when I when I do uh water water table setups, I use an immersion circulator, which is very accurate at its temperature holding, and then I have a top and I custom cut holes into the top to fit whatever I'm gonna have my inserts be.
+
+[42:55] And I've done cheese sauce many, many times. What you're gonna want to make sure is that uh wherever you're putting your bottles, you have like some sort of a cage so that the bottles don't fly around in there. They'll automatically find their own level of cheese sauce and they'll float in the top of the thing, but you have to contain them so that they don't just fly around the bath and turn upside down and then leak water into the top of your cheese spout. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm.
+
+[43:16] You don't want water in your cheese spout. Gross. What does it doesn't even have meaning? I like that. You're like, it does sound really gross though, doesn't it?
+
+[43:24] Yeah, yeah. Uh Michael Natkin, good friend Michael Natkin. Listener, rather. We never met him. We never actually met him in the real life.
+
+[43:32] No, not yet. No, but he's like a blog friend. Or, you know, whatever, whatever you call it. From Herbivoracious, writes in about smoking. Hey David Nastasha, no Jack.
+
+[43:39] No love for you, Jack. Even though you called him to get him on a show. Yikes. Nah, crazy. Uh I've got a question for you about stovetox too stove top smoking.
+
+[43:47] I generally just jury reach something with wood chips in a pot. I don't mind beating up. Usually hiskory hickory or mesquite. I know for modernist cuisine not to soak the chips, uh, because the temperature. The modernist cuisine says the lower temperature is actually not conducive for better smoke flavor, etc.
+
+[44:00] I'll let it rip over high heat until there's quite heavy smoke, then put a steamer basket in there with a single single layer of whatever I want to smoke, onions, tofus, mushrooms, etc., and go for 10 minutes or so. I found there's a nice smoky flavor, but also a bit of sourness that I don't love as much. It is fine, amazing actually, in dishes like uh the Frijolis charo charos, which you can see on their aberration's website. But the sourness is less appreciated in other contexts. Can you give me any clues as what's causing it and how to minimize it, thanks, Michael?
+
+[44:26] Okay. There's a couple of things that can happen when you break down wood, uh, there's uh basically acetic acid and other things that are uh created called pyroliginous acids, but I don't know if that's what what you're talking about. If you look at uh a good website to a good website, a good article to look at is contribution of phenolic compounds to smoke flavor by MAGA in 1992. Uh and this, you know, it's awesome because it's one of those, you know, it's it's still done on a typewriter, so the fonts and courier, even on the web, it's like the crappy old courier font that you got in technical documents, which Nastash is too young to have looked at. Not that she looks at the technical technical documents now, she doesn't give a crap about it.
+
+[44:59] So, it turns out that uh the stuff that's formed at really low temperatures, right, is acrid and bitter, right? Which is why they tell you not to soak the chips. Uh the stuff formed in the middle zone, uh up to about 750 degrees uh C is kind of the heart of the smoking flavor. And things that are formed above that temperature are uh with higher boiling points, phenolic things with higher boiling points, can taste uh acidic. So here I'll read I'll read from that article.
+
+[45:25] Um uh phenol compound volatility is also a factor relative to smoke flavor contribution. The low uh boiling phenolic portion obtained from distillation of smoke was found to have primarily contained phenol creosols and guacols described as hot and bitter taste. The fraction distilled at 92 to 132 C contained isousinols and syringeols. Those are the ones formed in the middle when much hotter, but they're formed uh in that middle range. Had a pure characteristic smoke flavor, and the high boiling stuff had an acid chemical sensory property.
+
+[45:52] Now, how do I recommend getting rid of first of all? Also, what's formed there's a lot of different things. There's the temperature of your of your the smoke makes a huge difference with the smok at which it's formed. Also, the amount of oxygen in the in this in the uh in the atmosphere where the smoke has a huge uh um impact on the flavor. Also, the moisture in your food, everything makes a difference.
+
+[46:11] The temperature of the food, everything makes a difference. But I I have a feeling this might help you. If you put uh two steamer baskets, a deep one and a tall one. In the bottom one, put a layer of ice, and then your food in a top one, uh it's gonna make a colder smoke, and I think you might get some of those um higher uh boiling compounds to condense onto the ice, those acid things, those acid sour taste things, and you might get a cleaner uh tasting product. That's how we used to do salmon.
+
+[46:37] Uh Nils used to do it that way. We were smoking large amounts of things. We would have a tray with ice, and then on top of that, another perf tray with our food, and we would put that over large hotel pans with burning wood in them. And those things never uh came out with any of those kind of off-flavors. So I would give that uh a shot, and uh barring that, maybe the temperature is a little bit too high, turn the temperature down a little bit.
+
+[46:57] Don't let it rip so hard on the on the smoke. You want to hit more of a middle zone. Make sense, Saz? Yeah. Sound good?
+
+[47:03] But please let us know how that works. We got any more time here, Jack? Or we oh shafted. Yeah, that's about it. All right, listen, Elliot Papineau wrote in uh he doesn't boil his pretzels.
+
+[47:12] Go boil your pretzels, boil your pretzels, do it side by side on boiled pretzels with uh um, you know, with some sort of basic thing versus not. Uh yeah, because I've done that test uh many, many times, and it makes a big difference. We still didn't get to Rob Trepas's cheese question. We did answer a bunch of his questions, but the thing is I need a lot of time to talk about the cheese because I've been thinking a lot about uh cheese and cheese analogs. In fact, Chris Anderson from Modernist Cuisine uh is gonna modernist pantry is gonna try to get uh me the rennet casing, which is what you use to make completely cheeseless, cheese-based, um, cheese-based things.
+
+[47:44] Uh, and we had a you know a qu a I'm gonna answer one real quick. No, Dave. I can't you can't. I can't. I gotta go do the egg whites next week and the uh and the and the meat analogs.
+
+[47:54] Anyway, this has been Cooking Issues. We're back. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[48:12] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Today's show is brought to you by Hearst Ranch grass fed beef. Available on the internet at HurstRanch.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:29] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Bertus Burz that we are in Bubba Ba Bubba Bushwick on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez not with us today. Not with us. She is uh flying home as we speak. Her plane is being battered about in the turbulence over the Atlantic Ocean.
+
+[0:46] She took her little sister to Switzerland over the weekend. Hmm, Switzerland, huh? You like that, Jack? Nice. Nice, nice.
+
+[0:54] Anyway, call any questions, uh, cooking, non tech tech, anything, really any question. We'll take any question, right, Jack? To uh 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Now, uh, we don't have anyone yet, Red.
+
+[1:07] We had somebody call in uh when you weren't here, but hopefully he'll call us back in a few minutes. Because I said in the Twitter I said 1205. Because I knew I was late. Wow. I made it at 12.05.
+
+[1:16] I was here at 1205. Here, you know, okay, that's late. It's unacceptable. I realize that. However, I'm slightly proud of myself.
+
+[1:23] I made a a Dave Arnold fat lazy out of shape world record for biking from my apartment in the lower east side to uh Bushwick. 15 minutes flat. Yeah. Seems like the studio is impressed. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:39] Almost died. Uh didn't almost kill anyone, though. That's my main thing. It's like, you know, me, my safety, not as important as not endangering the safety of pedestrians around me. Okay, uh, so I have a bunch of questions from last week.
+
+[1:49] I have some Twitter questions coming in. You can uh unfortunately, since Nastasha's here, uh I can't really check the Twitter during the show, but uh we're at cooking issues. That's how you tweet us or whatever the hell you call it, uh whatever you kids call it. At Heritage Radio, and we can get it. Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[2:04] Does that work? Does that happen? That works, that happens. Nice. Okay.
+
+[2:08] Okay, so from a couple weeks ago, uh Rob Trapaz uh wrote in about processed cheese. Uh I want to make a cheese sauce using melting salts, which we'll talk about in a minute. Uh if I'm out of breath, it's because I'm out of shape, by the way. If you hear like a it's me trying to catch my breath. Anyway, I see in Modernist Cuisine uh they use whey protein concentrate.
+
+[2:26] Uh now, for those of you that don't know, Modernist Cuisine, we've talked about it. We've had uh all three authors, right, on the show? All three? Yes, we have. Uh not in studio, but we've had them all.
+
+[2:38] Two of them in studio. Two of them in studio, right? Nathan hasn't been in the studio yet. He should sometime. Yeah, next time he's in New York, let's uh twist his uh his arm, get him in.
+
+[2:45] Anyway. Um, you know, whatever. Most ambitious, uh biggest cookbook undertaking all time, I'd have to say. Probably all time. It kind of uh rivals back when uh, you know, the Pope used to, you know, uh have someone make the cistine chapel, and just didn't matter how much it costs or how much time it took, that kind of thing, only with a cookbook.
+
+[3:04] Anyway, uh so uh he has uh the the recipe they're talking about, there's a uh a cheese sauce. I think there's several cheese sauces in the modernist cuisine where they are basically using the techniques of processed cheese making to make better tasting higher-end things. Anyway, uh so Rob writes in, I have sodium citrate and whey protein isolate. My understanding is that the whey protein concentrate has uh the lactate sugars and the isolate has the sugars removed. What function does the concentrate have in this recipe?
+
+[3:32] And can I substitute, uh, isolate or simply leave it out? Uh other recipes call for Joha S D SDS2 sodium phosphate. What is it? What does it do? Where do you get it, etc., etc.?
+
+[3:41] Okay, look. I did a lot of research on processed cheese over the past couple weeks. It's a subject I haven't researched in a while, but uh I find it extremely interesting. Um Wiley Dufrein, by the way, my brother-in-law, chef of WD-50, loves himself some American cheese. Were you aware of that?
+
+[3:57] Did you know that? Loves American cheese and eggs. And he's not afraid to admit it. I'm not uh like letting the cat out of the bag like uh like I do with Nastasha, he will freely admit it. Um, take a sip of water, hold on.
+
+[4:07] And breathing. Breath. Okay. The way you make a processed cheese is you take cheeses and you add what's called a melting salt to them. And the melting salt is uh also called an emulsifying salt.
+
+[4:20] And unlike a normal emulsifier, which has one part of a molecule that loves fat and another part of a molecule of the molecule that loves water, and thereby makes it easier for water and fat to live together. That's what an emulsifier does, or air and water, or air and fat, etc. etc. Anyway, uh it's not really like that. What it is is uh it's uh sodium citrate is one, polyphosphates are another, and what they do is they actually make it easier for the they unbind the casein.
+
+[4:49] So there's casein, which is the protein in uh in milk solids, uh, that causes cheese to bind together to coagulate. Uh and it basically resolubilizes the casein and allows the casein to become an emulsifier. So these emulsifying salts, these melting salts, uh, modify the casein and make it easier for it to be runny and spreadable and meltable, all that great stuff. Now, you might be surprised to note that uh older cheeses, the ones that you typically would assume don't melt very well, uh, actually need the least amount of emulsifying salts in them because uh their proteins are most broken down. It's actually young cheeses, the ones that you think would melt very easily, that in fact are very difficult to make a very smooth melted processed cheese out of.
+
+[5:37] Uh, and that's why uh to go back, uh Jack, are you familiar with fondue? What's that? Are you familiar with fondue? I am. Do you know what the cheese of choice for fondue is?
+
+[5:47] I don't. A Gruyere. Is it? Yeah. Why?
+
+[5:50] Well, grier is an aged cheese, right? So even though it's very high fat, and high fat cheeses uh melt very easily, also uh it's very aged, and so the proteins are break it up broken down more than they would be in a very young cheese. And hence, even though it's an aged cheese, it melts extremely well and makes a fondue. Do you know what else uh you add to fondue, Jack? No.
+
+[6:09] White wine. You know why? I don't. Ah, because it's uh the tartrate in uh from tartaric acid in wine that provides the natural emulsifying salt to make fondue super creamy and delicious. That's why.
+
+[6:24] Wow, I can sit here all day and say I don't know to most things you say. Well, you know, um well we'll do a different show where it's all stuff it stumps me. Yeah, exactly. Uh anyway, but the um but what's funny is is that actually the Swiss were the first people to have a patent on processed cheese, and one of the uh one of the ideas of why is because they or were used to using wine in their famous melted cheese fondue, and so they came up with processed cheese first. Something that's typically blamed on Americans, but in fact is a Swiss invention.
+
+[6:56] So uh whey, you can add whey to processed cheese in a number of different ways for different reasons. Uh depending on how much you add, it can have different effects. Whey is typically used as a water binder, and so it could probably hold water in when you're melting uh your cheese down. Um it's unclear to me because I don't have the recipe in front of me, and I know I don't own the Modernus Cuisine Cookbook yet, so I couldn't look it up. Um but uh it's probably there as a water binder and also to affect the meltability.
+
+[7:25] Uh little bits added of whey protein tend to uh increase the meltability of a cheese, and more additions tend to decrease the meltability of the cheese and also decrease the flavor because whey protein uh fairly neutral in uh taste. Now, as for that SDS said uh Joha stuff, that is just a different kind of emulsifying salt. Uh the one you're using, sodium citrate, was the first one that was used. Uh it tends to not be so great uh for um long-term usage, and it doesn't promote meltability as some of the phosphate salts do, but it's good to have around because it modifies uh the pH. So sodium citrate is gonna make things uh it's a buffer, but I think we'll make things slightly more acidic, whereas some of the phosphate salts are slightly more basic.
+
+[8:08] And the pH of the cheese when you're done is uh fairly important to the texture. Usually you want to be uh right around five, five point one, my memory serves me, uh, on the pH of melted cheese to get them right. Um I'm super interested uh in processed cheese. I saw an article where someone was making uh something that had the flavor of ketchup, but the meltability of cheese using a product I've tried to use once but had no success with called rennet casein. Uh basically completely constructed cheese analog with a different uh flavor.
+
+[8:38] Um Modernus Pantry is trying to get it, and when Chris Anderson gets it, uh I'll get it and uh play around with it. But it reminds me of an experiment I did years ago uh trying to make ketchup chocolate, which is texture of chocolate, flavor of ketchup. Um anyway, so with that, why don't we take a commercial break? I'll catch my breath and call your questions to 718497 2128. That's 718497 2128 cooking issues.
+
+[10:07] Pasture raised on a hundred and fifty thousand acres in central California. Sustainably produced, humane. And welcome back to cooking issues. So uh Jack, we're gonna do a giveaway today, true or false? True.
+
+[10:41] Okay. So our good friends at the Heritage Meat Shop, which is at the Essex Street Market in New York City on Essex and Delancey, are offering a free pork shop to uh the first listener that answers the trivia question you pose to them. Okay, here's the trivia question. So the last question I'm gonna answer from a reader uh is from Carrie Camill, and uh Carrie writes in asking about egg substitutes and cocktail in cocktails, and the first person who can call in with the name of a Colombian fruit that produces a frothy head on the top of a cocktail similar to an egg white without adding any sort of uh egg or other protein based stuff wins the pork chop. Well they can they can either call in, they can info at email well they can email us at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[11:32] They can tweet us at heritage underscore radio or call into the show. So lots of options. Yeah, come to New York. Or if you're you know, here's what you can do also. If you happen to live somewhere else, we'll hold it for you.
+
+[11:48] They're not gonna go out of business and not gonna go anywhere, and next time in New York, come get the pork chop. All right. Right? True or false. Uh probably, yeah.
+
+[11:55] Yeah, sure. Pork shops will be around. Yeah, they'll be around. Everyone people aren't gonna all of a sudden stop liking pork chops. I don't think so.
+
+[12:02] No, it's not gonna happen. Um, okay. So what that means, Carrie, if you're listening, is that your question is going to be last. But uh we do have callers on the line. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[12:14] Hello. Hi. Hi, um I'm calling from Hearth Australia. Oh, nice. Um, I was just wondering.
+
+[12:23] Um I do at work I do uh sousheed lamb rum. And probably one out of ten come out really mushy after I uh reheat them. Uh so I cook them at sixty for an hour and forty, um and then chill and then reheat at fifty-four. And um after the vin it's been in the bath for about fifteen minutes, about one in ten come come out really mushy. I was wondering if you could uh help me troubleshoot that.
+
+[12:49] That's really odd. All the same muscle, the same exact muscle. Yeah, so it's all it's all the rump and it's just uh cleaned and um just been marinated in like olive oil, thyme, garlic, rosemary for a couple of days and then we roll it into a cylinder and then um yeah, cook it and then chill it and then reheat. And yeah, probably one in ten come out just like mushy as hell, like as if it's been cooked at like seventy-eight and you want to flake it but it's still like pink as. Huh.
+
+[13:16] Wait, well it's it's so when I think of mushy normally, uh in low temperature meats um that haven't been overcooked, right? I typically think of kind of a fibery pasty kind of a feel, uh similar to Yeah, so if you like it and for those of you that haven't done a lot of low temperature work, it's difficult to describe because you haven't overcooked it and the juice is still there, but it just turns to a massive fibers in your mouth when you chew it. Uh and yeah, that's it. Yeah, and if you know if and if any of you want to replicate this uh at home, buy a uh filet mignon uh piece, uh tenderloin and cook it at fifty-four four for like five hours, and then even though it's still rare, it's horrible. Uh and it's because it's gone mushy and typically and you s what's the maximum time it's spent in the in the bath?
+
+[14:03] Uh hour and forty. Yeah. Uh how big around is the roll? Uh probably one and a half inches. Okay.
+
+[14:12] So I would cook it at at what temperature? 60. Six sixty? Uh so one forty for all your Fahrenheit heads. Um so here's what I would say.
+
+[14:23] Um if you're dealing with uh meats that don't have a lot of connective tissue in them, typically um cooking any longer than the point of doneness is going to uh reduce the reduce the the the amount you're gonna like the texture of the meat. So that's why on a duck breast, for instance, I only cook a duck breast for 45 minutes because um if you cook it for longer, it may not adversely affect the texture, but sometimes it gets some of that mushiness that you have. Um if I'm doing fillet, I tend not to cook fillet low temp, but if I'm gonna do fillet low temp, um I'll cook it for like 45 minutes, even though it doesn't pasteurize it technically. Uh although some of the new programs out like the Sous Vash and the one that PolyScience had worked on, they'll write programs for surface pasteurization if you're not worried about the inside. But since you're since you've actually rolled it, you kind of do need to get all the way to the inside uh of it and kill it.
+
+[15:21] Is that why you're doing that length of time? Although you shouldn't need to cook it that long at that high to uh pasteurize it. Well uh Yeah, we're doing uh uh loin at 62 for uh an hour and twenty. So we just because we lowered the temperature when we changed to rump, we upped the time just a little bit as well. Still the thickness is still the same, so we just wanted to up it just because we'll it was in that for longer at lower?
+
+[15:44] Right. I I I would um I I I would try to decrease the time. It might be the time doing it. Um did you notice that the mushier ones had less uh kind of connective tissue or less inherent structure in them than the ones that weren't mushy? Was there any visual difference between them?
+
+[16:02] Not really. They were all pretty identical in um I mean like even the size it like didn't really matter like how thick or thin they were because obviously they're not all identical. Um even the you know, the small line, the bigger ones still had the same outcome didn't really didn't really matter on that. Right. I mean it could also I mean it's possible that the different cuts of meat have different pHs and that could be affecting it as well.
+
+[16:23] Like uh I know there's certain you know, certain uh pork cuts here we have called P S E pale soft and exudative, um and yep and uh we also have dark cutting meat on the other end of the spectrum, other end of the pH spectrum, and so it could be that you're having slight differences there that are affecting the water binding ability of the meat and that that could be affecting the texture, but I would see if cutting your time down something that's um something that's uh an inch and a half across should not take uh more than uh an hour max. So see if you cut down to an hour whether or not your problem goes away, and if not, we're gonna have to look at something like the actual differences between the individual cuts of meat. Right. You know? 'Cause it could be that you're just right on the edge.
+
+[17:06] Yeah, no worries. Yeah. But but plea I would please um you know, if you if you can't I don't know if like how much it costs to call, but if you can't uh call back, please just let me know what happens one way or the other because it helps me when I have to suggest things to people in the future. Just let us know uh whether or not that helped out. Also, is it true that in uh in the south of Australia people bike on the sidewalk everywhere?
+
+[17:27] Say what? Is it true that people in Australia bike on the sidewalks? I was told this by someone on the Twitter 'cause I was uh some sometimes, mostly on the road though. Yeah, that makes sense. On the road.
+
+[17:37] I was in Japan and people were biking on the sidewalk constantly. I was in constant danger of getting mowed down by people on the sidewalk. I'm glad to see that in Australia, most people ride on the roads. Roads. Roads and roads.
+
+[17:47] Yeah, I I watched the uh the today tonight that you have um been ranting about as well. It's pretty horrible. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:55] That thing's that's that show is that show is terrible. Is that thing still on the air? Coming from Australia. Is that still is that still on the air? They still have that show?
+
+[18:04] Yeah, it's it's the worst. I need to make it to Australia sometime. Not to rant about that, but to have some of the uh grape produce. I'm especially interested. I know it's not Australian, but I'm interested in the uh New Zealand's the Porn Orange.
+
+[18:16] You know the New Zealand grapefruit, the Purman orange? A fantastic it's a fantastic piece of citrus. The try to get a hold of it. I think they grow it in Australia as well, but uh I think the problem with it is it has to be really, really fresh, which is maybe why it's not shipped out here. Um I know Australia is huge, so just because you know it's from New Zealand doesn't mean it's close to you, but um you're not gonna have the import problems that we do.
+
+[18:37] So you should try to get a hold of it. Fantastic citrus, uh both to eat and for use in cocktails. I've only had it once or twice, but delicious. All right, I'll look it up. Thanks very much.
+
+[18:47] Uh thank you very much for your help. And bye-bye. We uh we have another caller. Uh and um we also, before we get to that caller, we have a um a William McGee asking if the fruit is narangilla. Ooh, no um, that I believe that's a passion fruit.
+
+[19:07] Um let me look it up. No, it's not the one I was thinking of. Okay. Let me let me look it up. It's not the one I was thinking of.
+
+[19:13] I might have to give it to him if I I'm gonna look it up during that one up during the uh next uh commercial break, and then we'll see whether or not uh that's the it's not the one I had in mind. But it may be work. All right, maybe we'll see. So we have another caller on the line. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[19:28] Hey, this is Johnny Clark from Memphis, Tennessee. Hey Dave, how you doing? I'm right, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I have a suckling pig, uh 20 to 30 pounds that I've cut uh down the back and taking the sides off with the belly attached.
+
+[19:45] And I had some questions about cooking it soothing versus uh conventional um time and temperature wise. And I wanted uh, of course, uh nice crispy skin. Oh yeah. If you have any um any advice for me, that would be great. All right, here you go.
+
+[20:04] So, first of all, uh you have a uh you have a good problem how to cook a delicious product, right? Um by the way, uh Memphis, one of those towns I have not been to. Can you freaking believe that? Oh my god. I know it's ridiculous ridiculous.
+
+[20:19] It's one of the great, it's one of the great, obviously one of the great uh barbecue towns uh in the country uh and great for so many other things. Music, it's just it's uh it's a complete travesty that I haven't made it there yet. But um I will someday make it there. Uh now here's the issue with a suckling pig as opposed to uh uh a larger pig like a full size hog. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go out here and uh hopefully I don't uh anger anyone, but um in general for hogs, uh for whole hogs doesn't apply to suckling pigs.
+
+[20:49] I I don't think it's necessarily possible to do the best job cooking the thing whole. Here's why. Not every muscle in a hog wants to cook the uh same way. Do you know what I mean? So uh so uh and I don't know I don't know why his name popped out of my head, but the famous whole hog guy, uh uh Mitchell, uh Ed Mitchell, right?
+
+[21:08] Ed Ed Mitchell. Um, he likes to cook the the whole hog. When he does it, what he'll do is he'll like machete the whole hog up after he's done, get little bits of crunchy skin. Uh and the fact that certain pieces of muscle are kind of pasty and overcooked, specifically the muscles without connective tissue like the loin, it doesn't matter so much because that's covered up by the sauce and it's massed by the fact that there's all kinds of cuts in there that are good after they've been cooked for for a long period of time. Um but that said, a suckling pig's a little bit different because uh it doesn't require as long a cooking time as a whole hog does because nothing in a suckling pig takes as long to break down as something in a whole hog.
+
+[21:50] So it's possible, I think, to get uh something that's pretty delicious all the way through without having to break it down. And also there's more fat and stuff, even in the areas that are kind of low connective tissue in a younger, in a younger it's kind of distributed better. Does that make sense or no? Yeah, but what I've done is I've cut uh the uh front legs off and then cut down the loin and left the loin in the belly attached, and I was gonna roll it up. So it's just one muscle, the loins that we're talking about wrapped up and uh BRT style.
+
+[22:25] Right. Well, but the bellies, the belly's attached to the loin. No. Okay, good. So they'll cook the loin at like I would do I would do uh low temp like sous vide.
+
+[22:35] I would cook that loin for uh I'd go low. It depends on your on your on your um on your your guests slash customers or whatever, but I tend to go uh you there are people out there cooking uh pork as low as uh fifty seven, but that's rare, pink, real pink looking, and um you're gonna have some people that'll balk. You know what I mean? I you know I was thinking 50 gates, something like that. Anyway, yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:02] So but if you take it up to 60, it's still pretty juicy, and as long as you don't cook it too long. Um very very few uh fewer people will balk at uh at 60. Do you know what I'm saying? Um and it's still good. You might want to run a test.
+
+[23:18] I tend to do a lot of my pork at 60 just because it's actually still slightly pink, but what happens is when you do the finishing cook on it, especially if you pull it from hot and do the finishing on the outside, uh it tends to just be a little bit rosy in the very center, and people are okay with that typically. Um but yeah, they'll be okay with it. Yeah, and so uh uh m the pieces that have the skin on I tend to let cool off quite a bit um without unbagging it or taking it out of the fat or whatever I'm cooking it in, uh so that I can get a really long crisping time on the skin because I like to get the skin super super crispy and uh and crunchy, and I like to take a little bit of time doing it because I uh the especially with a torch, unless you have a really good torch, and by that I mean one that doesn't have any uh uncombusted gas hitting it. Um there's so much fat on the skin of a piece of uh pork that it can pick up some of that torch taste, and it's also difficult to not get scorch marks on it with a torch. If you have to use a torch to touch up pieces of the skin afterwards, it's gonna ruin your chinois.
+
+[24:23] But I recommend firing it or or if you have a piece of stainless steel mesh, fire your torch at the stainless steel piece of mesh and use that almost as a as a heating grill because uh um that like this the red hot mesh will combust the rest of the the nasty gas taste that you um would ordinarily get out of a propane torch. Alternatively, if you have a butane torch and a source of gas in it that doesn't have uh a lot of those uh you know those uh the the Mercaptins that they add to it to make it smell terrible so that you know if you have a leak, like some of the tobacco brands don't have a lot of taste to them, and then you don't have to worry about it so much. But I really prefer uh deep frying and or like uh shallow uh oil pan fry rendering of the skin just because it does a really good job and uh penetrates uh all the way through. If you need to render out some of the fat, I would do some of um although I don't think you will. I would do uh modernist cuisine's trick that they do with the duck breast, which is they buy a new dog brush, the kind with the bristles, and they hit it with the bristles to kind of uh allow the fat to render out.
+
+[25:27] But what I've done is I've taken some of the skin and I I submitted it for six hours at uh one forty. Right. And then I was going to uh scrape the fat and put it in dehydrator. Okay. And uh fry it.
+
+[25:46] Is that a good idea? Uh I yeah, uh at 140, I'm trying to think, um, so you want it to puff like a chicharron or you want it to still have a lot of bite to it? Uh I want it to crunch. Yeah. Chicharron.
+
+[26:00] Right. So typically when I do like pork rinds, um I'll uh I won't I don't low temp them. I I cook the hell out of them actually. Like uh because the what you're doing, if you want it to fully puff, like a like a chicharone style, like like pork rinds, like in the package at the store. Uh oh yeah.
+
+[26:19] Yeah, yeah. The the trick there is you need to render all of the collagen into gelatin, all of it. Uh and and I typically do that by boiling it in salted water for like boiling it in very salted water for like mmm sixty minutes, seventy minutes, something like that. Until it's it's uh shot and completely shot. And then uh I drain it and let it cool because one uh it'll burn the heck out of your hands, and two, um it's very, very fragile until it cools down.
+
+[26:48] When it cools down, the gelatin's gonna start to set up a little bit. Then I s once and then I put it in the fridge flat when it's cold, then it's got more structure to it. Then I scrape it, dehydrate it, and fry it, and it puffs up huge. And if you want it to not puff up quite as much, you don't scrape it as much. I'd be really interested to know what the texture difference is between uh cooking at 140 and cooking it the way I normally do, which is you know, at boiling.
+
+[27:15] Um I'd be very interested to know what the textural difference is because my feeling is you're gonna get you're not gonna have rendered out all the the collagen and so it's gonna hold together a little better. What happens in a pork rind is you dehydrate it just till it turns kind of flexy plastic like a shrinky dank from when I was a kid. How long to dehydrate? It totally dep depends on the on the dehydrator, but I I really honestly just do it by by eye, and it should it should feel it it goes from being a piece of skin to all of a sudden looking like a piece of plastic. And I would just keep like test frying little pieces, and once you see it one time, you'll know what's right.
+
+[27:54] And uh the the best way, honestly, it depends on how humid it is, but uh you know where you are, but um what I'll do is it's it's humid, yeah. I I I usually do I usually dehydrate it about uh eighty percent of the way um and then pull it out and let it sit overnight. Uh and sometimes it'll take itself all the rest of the way. It's very it's very hard to get it rehydrated if you've over dehydrated it. Um so that you really want to guard against over dehydrating because um tempering it back to the proper moisture content is just it's a bear.
+
+[28:29] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I would just keep looking at it. Caliber uh dehydrator on the 12 tray or something like that.
+
+[28:37] Oh yeah. Um so if that helps about what do you temperature I started at 135. I started I'm sorry. Yeah, I usually start it at 135. I'll let it go for uh I'll get let it go for a you know a couple of hours, I'll look at it.
+
+[28:54] And then what you could do overnight if you have it is just turn it down to its lowest setting uh and then let it ride. It shouldn't over dehydrate overnight on the lowest possible setting, which is I believe 95 on the X caliber. But it's better you can always pulse dehydrate to get more of the stuff out, and once it's partially dehydrated, it's not gonna spoil on you. So you don't need to worry about spoilage. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[29:19] But uh parceling uh just what do you say? What's partial partially dehydrated? What do you mean? Oh, so in other words, like uh if you if you if you don't dehydrate it enough, what's gonna happen is you're you're when you fry a test piece, it's going to have like a little uh like a kernel on the inside that's not gonna puff up. Okay.
+
+[29:39] When you if you over dehydrate it, it'll burn and just not puff up as much because there's not enough water to expand it anymore. So uh you know what what I usually do is is I don't let it dehydrate. If I'm gonna go to bed, I don't let it dehydrate when I'm not there because I don't want it to over dehydrate. But as long as you've started the dehydration process, you've reduced the water content of it enough that you're not going to get microbial spoilage in it overnight. So you don't need to worry about it.
+
+[30:05] And then, you know, the next day, if it if you know it hasn't kind of tempered out and become even all the way through, if you fry a piece in the morning, then you can just dehydrate it for another hour or so, and usually that's enough to to get it in the right in the right state. The real thing, like I say, is just to guard against over dehydrating. Okay. I appreciate you. Hey, hey, tell us how it works out.
+
+[30:26] I will. Thanks, Dave. Have a good day. You too. Hey, Dave.
+
+[30:30] Yes. So William McGee followed up and said maybe the correct name is Lulo. Lulo! Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. I have to also give a shout out to Andy Melka, who who also answered Lulo.
+
+[30:42] Can we give two pork chops away? If Andy Andy's not in New York, but if he comes, yes. We we will give the two pork chops away. There you go. Two winners on the pork shop.
+
+[30:50] So I can now go back and uh answer uh Carrie Campbell's question before the end of the show because we have two correct answers. Let's take a very quick break before that. Alright, quick break, come back uh 7184972128. That's 7184972128. The following is a message from the Heritage Meat Shop.
+
+[31:28] Are you tired of just hearing buzzwords? Do you want to actually take part in the food revolution? Then come on down to the Heritage Meat Shop. Located in New York's historic Essex Street Market. On the corner of Essex and Delancey.
+
+[31:39] We have rare breed pork, beef, poultry, lamb, and goat. Not to mention charcuterie that'll make you squeal. All raised right by the right people, so you know they'll taste right. Try the meat that over a hundred New York chefs ache for. Come to the Heritage Meat Shop and pick up some revolution today.
+
+[31:56] For more information, visit Heritagemeatshop.com. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Okay. Uh so actually, before I go into Kerry Campbell's question, uh at something apropos of the of the pork, uh, we had a Twitter question in that uh from Ryan Rogers saying, uh, does removing uh the membrane from ribs prior to smoking uh or souvy, should you remove the membrane either before or after? What we're talking about is on the bone side of ribs, there's a uh kind of a membrane.
+
+[32:26] You know what I'm talking about, Jack? That membrane that the kind of like you can see yeah. Hey, Ryan Rogers, I went to college with. The same one? Fairly certain.
+
+[32:33] Wow, cool. Is he a good guy? I believe he's a chef in Kentucky now. Nice, nice. Well, do you like that membrane?
+
+[32:39] I actually happen to like it. Yeah, I don't mind it. Yeah. Well, I'm weird, I'm a bad person because it would like the both of us, we're bad people. Uh because all the people who know what the the what they're talking about, they tend to say to remove it for textural reasons, uh, because most people don't like it.
+
+[32:52] Uh I would remove it beforehand. Um I haven't had that much experience with leaving it on, but uh, versus not, I've never done the side by side, but everyone who removes it say they remove it to get better penetration of rubs and or spice. So I'm assuming that if you're going to add smoke, uh that it's better to take it off earlier because you're gonna get better penetration through it than if you uh didn't in terms of flavors and things like that. Fairly easy to strip off, strips off the same way that the membrane strips off of a skirt steak. So I would say remove it uh beforehand uh beforehand.
+
+[33:23] The other question was um uh should you do, I'm assuming you mean low temperature. Should I do uh Boston butt uh boneless or bone in low temperature? I would say take the bone out. It's just here's why. As much as everyone I know loves gnawing things off of the bone, um, the bone is really helpful as a protectant when you're cooking normally, but I don't think it's going to give you any benefit when you're doing low temperature because the whole point of low temperature is you're not going to overcook the meat anyway.
+
+[33:51] And in terms of presentation and sliceability, you're going to want to get that thing out of there so you can roll it. Uh it's also going to take less long to cook. You're going to get more accurate temperatures in the center. Um if you are vacuum bagging it, you're not going to pull any of the weird blood things out of the bone. If you pull the bone out, uh gives you a chance to trim some of the cartilage things away.
+
+[34:09] So I would definitely take the bone out. Uh that's just that's just my feeling. Um, let's take some cocktail questions. Uh we'll do we'll do Carrie's first because she's uh here uh is you think carry is man or woman? Carrie Camel.
+
+[34:23] I don't know. I think just Campbell. Carrie Camel? I was called Carrie. Camel?
+
+[34:27] Car no, Carrie. First name Carrie. First name Carrie. Carrie. Carrie.
+
+[34:32] Anyway. Um question for the podcast. I'm looking for a substitute for egg white to use in a pisco sour type drink. RGM will not allow egg whites behind the bar, but I am looking for something to give a drink a similar mouthfeel in foam. Gum syrup, maybe.
+
+[34:44] Uh, can I make syrup with egg white powder? Uh thanks. P.S.D. Mind sharing your recipe for the coriander syrup. Here's the recipe for the coriander syrup that we use at the bar.
+
+[34:52] Take uh 150 grams of uh fresh coriander seed, put it into a liter of water, blend it in a blender, and um uh one kilo of uh white sugar, uh bring it to the boil, toss in a bunch of crushed red pepper, stir and keep tasting it. Uh you know, turn the heat off. Uh stir and keep tasting it until the spice picks up to the level you want. You need a bit of spiciness in the back end of that thing to uh have it uh work correctly when we use it similar to like a ginger ale, then put it uh I would put a fine course chinois, like a coarse strainer, inside of a fine chinois and dump it through that. Uh the course chinois will catch most of this stuff, and the fine chinois will catch the rest, and it allows you to strain it one time, let it cool, and you're good to go.
+
+[35:38] Okay. Um so anyway, uh what can you use? Well, it you can make a drink uh to do an apisco a pisco style drink, might be really interesting with Lulo. Lulo is a South American, I I think of it as a Colombian fruit, and they use uh the juice of it constantly, and it makes an amazing uh kind of creamy head on the top, foamy head on it, just from the hydrocolloids that are naturally in the Lulo. So you could look for fruits that naturally want to foam up when you're doing a sour-style drink.
+
+[36:07] Lulo is also acidic, so it would it also it's kind of a cool green color. Um green or yellow depending. But you can uh it's really uh it's really interesting, so you could do something like that. If you wanted to use po I mean powdered egg white, unfortunately doesn't taste uh so good. Um I've done side-by-sides with uh pasteurized egg white, uh powdered egg white, uh my you know, my pasteurized egg white and um and regular egg white with Kenta Goto from Pegu Club years ago.
+
+[36:35] And the fresh egg white was better. Uh if your GM would let you use pasteurized egg whites uh in the box, they're they're not as good, but they're not I mean, whatever. I don't even know if they're gonna GM's gonna let you use that. Um you can pasteurize your own egg whites in an immersion circulator, or uh you can use gum syrup and it's gonna add some of the body to it. Um what I would do is make a call-up TIC gums, and they have a bunch of uh kind of really high quality foaming agents that you can use that they uh and if you call TIC gums and tell them what your problem is, um they have a product for you.
+
+[37:10] The one that we use that I've used for making kind of creamy heads on things is called Ticoloid 310 or 210S, and it's basically gum arabic with a little bit of xanthan gum in it. And if you want to increase the the foamy head nature of it even more, you uh you could dope it with a little more xanthan. You just don't want to add too much xanthan because it can add kind of a snotty, slippery mouthfeel to it. The commercial fake egg white foamer, uh looked up one of the ingredients uh for it, and um it's got an emulsifier, polysorbate 80. This is Fees Fee Brothers, uh potassium sorbate and some sodium benzoate.
+
+[37:46] Uh, but it lists its main ingredient as propylene glycol, which is an antifreeze. Uh it's hard, it's it's it's used, it's food grade, but it's you know it's not like fantastical. I I don't love it. But I think they probably meant is propylene glycol alginate, which is uh which is uh kind of a modified uh alginate um that is used as a as a beer head agent in beer, uh and it's it's not natural, but it's it's neutral and uh it is a f a foaming agent to increase the stability in the head of beer, so if you shake it, it's gonna uh stabilize the bubbles that are formed. And you could use something like that, but uh it's kind of horrible.
+
+[38:23] I would just get to pure propylene glycol alginate that doesn't have any kind of weird flavorings or anything in it, but it's gonna if in used in large amounts, it's gonna probably have a slippery kind of a feel to it. I don't know that you're going to uh enjoy that so much. Does that make sense, Jack? Sorry, yes, it does. I was away from the mic there.
+
+[38:40] Alright, that's okay. Don't worry about that. Okay. Um now uh have another cocktail question in from Hayden Lambert. Uh on how do I remove the color from homemade tonic water?
+
+[38:44] It has to be super low tech. Well, when I make tonic water, uh, it doesn't have any color because I don't use the bark uh, you know, the what I forget that I always get the name of the tree wrong. It's like Kinchona or something like that. Uh but I don't use the bark of the tree. Uh I use uh quinine sulfate uh USP, which I get from a uh a chemical house, um, which is what you know what the big folks use to make tonic water uh industrially, quinine sulfate.
+
+[39:15] Um it's a lot easier to dose, but it is expensive, and if you want to make it from bark, you gotta make it from bark, and it's gonna be um yeah, it's gonna be kind of colored and probably cloudy. Now, uh you're not gonna get rid of the color through any normal uh filtration technique like um coffee filter or whatnot, but you should definitely put it all through a coffee filter so that when you carbonate it, you're not gonna have a lot of crud floating around, which is gonna stop your ability to carbonate well. If you want to remove color, the only thing I know that strips color out that's really low tech is charcoal filter, but it's it's gonna have to have malt like activated charcoal like a Brita, but it's gonna take a long time and be aware that the uh activated charcoal won't just be stripping color, it'll also be stripping flavor. So I don't know uh what the affinity of uh activated charcoal is to uh quinine or to the other flavors that are in there. So um it's unclear to me what what will happen, but I know there are some people out there who actually filter their bitters through Brita's uh to kind of clear them up a little bit, but I mean it it's gonna have a radical effect on flavor.
+
+[40:19] In fact, there was a there was a company a number of years ago, and their main uh their main that well, their their only product was uh it was some take on uh on Grey Goose but I forget what it was was it was a charcoal filter so that you could go buy the like the world's cheapest crappiest vodka and filter it through this thing like like four five six times and turn it into an actually not unpleasant neutral vodka and it had a picture of a guy with a fur hat on like wasted out of his mind. You ever seen this Jack? Oh I haven't uh and so someone gave it to to me at the French culinary years ago and uh it was like an ex-alum and he you know he said uh hey you know uh can you know would you ever like I was like no I can't I can't advocate taking cheap vodka pouring it through a filter and and then drinking it so that like frat kids can uh get crunked up for cheap. I mean that's just not what I do for a living, you know I'm not against it. But you know but it's not like kind of it's not my shtick.
+
+[41:17] Do you know what I'm saying? But that said we used it all the time to take cheap liquor and kind of uh kill it so that we could use it in tests at the school without having to spend out for expensive uh vodka when we were doing infusion work. So it definitely does strip flavors out and we used to put uh bourbon through it to see what would happen and it strips not all of the color but some of the color and in fact it's filtration that strips the color out of aged rums when they turn them back to white again. Really? Yeah.
+
+[41:43] Yeah. What do they taste like the bourbons and rums? They just uh they just kills them a little bit you know what I mean it just deadens them up you know uh I mean I was never I mean in vodka like taking away that that hospital swab uh nose is a is a good thing but in most other situations um you know, it's not necessarily not necessarily the best. Uh okay. Uh Marty with Eagle Rock writes in.
+
+[42:06] Uh this isn't to elicit Nastasha's vegan face. Don't worry about it, she's in airplane now anyway. Uh I've recently made the decision to keep vegetarian at home, and I'm trying to create a mix that will serve as a base for things like patties and meatballs. I like the flavor and moisture level of the garbanzo, lentil, onion, crimini, dried porcini, roast eggplant, pearl barley mix. Jesus, that's quite a mix.
+
+[42:25] It's a mouthful. That's a mouthful. I can't believe I got that out in one breath. It's only because I did it later in the show when I've caught my breath. Yeah.
+
+[42:31] Uh but it lacks the elastic resistance of denatured meat. I thought soy flour might help, but nope. I would also like to come up with a vegan meatball that doesn't dissolve in marinara. Any thoughts, Marty and Eagle Rock. Okay, here's what I would do.
+
+[42:43] Um in order to get like an elastic situation, you're gonna need a gel that's gonna bind together. I know you tried soy protein uh you know, powder, but what you might not have tried is getting proteins. For instance, if you want to go vegan, you can't use casein, but you could use soy. Uh you know, you could go to something, you know, like a tempeh or one of those things that everyone uses or texturized vegetable protein, but you might be able to get some soy and then add some transglutaminase to it. And um transglutaminase works on soy protein to firm up things like tofu, and so you might be able to get bonding between soy protein in a patty.
+
+[43:22] And uh you so if you want to go vegan, you have to get uh a transglutaminase that doesn't have any casein added to it or gelatin. And so you're gonna have to use uh transglutaminase activa, uh which is made via Ginamoto T I. The TI is the enzyme only with maltodextrin and doesn't have any casein and doesn't have any um uh gelatin. It's it's vegan product. Uh and that one, if you mix it in a slurry with uh with uh soy protein, um sh the soy protein, once it's solubilized, should bond to itself over the course of about four hours.
+
+[43:58] So you would set you would make the patties, you would uh set them in the fridge for four to four hours overnight is even better, and they should firm up a lot more and then not break apart when you cook them. Right? That seems like a good idea to me. Seems like it would work. Uh and you know, then you don't have to use any sort of awful uh, you know, fake meat crap, which you know, most of those things are horrible.
+
+[44:21] Um Jack, how much more time do I have? I hate to do this to you, but it's time. Oh man. I didn't get to answer all the questions. A recurring theme on the show, I'd say.
+
+[44:32] All right, listen. E.T. from Reed College. Name something interesting about Reed College. Oh man, I don't know.
+
+[44:37] You you ready for this? Yeah. Yeah, it's important. I heard someone Portland. They have the world's only nuclear reactor run entirely by undergraduates.
+
+[44:47] Oh my god. Wow. Yeah, it's like simultaneously, I'm like, oh my god, I wish I went there. That's awesome. And then I'm like, holy crap, they have a nuclear reactor run by undergraduates.
+
+[45:00] I know it's crazy, right? I mean, like, you know, Portland, like the more you learn about Portland, the cooler it is, except for they don't people only bike, they don't walk. This is what I like about New York City. It's a walking city. I can see people.
+
+[45:09] I bike, but I also like to walk around. Anyway, E.T. answered from uh an alumna alumnus of Reed, answered the question we had weeks ago on Orchada. Uh next week I'll read E.T.'s answer. Uh we'll talk about eels and tobacco and Seiji Yamamoto and how he uses a compressed air gun to do ikajime on eels, probably after my Ikajima post goes up uh next week on the blog.
+
+[45:32] Uh, a couple other questions I didn't get to. Well you we didn't get to you, but you we haven't forgotten, you will get 'em next week. This has been cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows.
+
+[45:57] You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:02] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Today's show has been brought to you by our good friends at TechServe. Visit TechServe.com for more information. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:27] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, roughly 12 to 1245. Joined again this week by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Nice. Copyright issues. We're moving towards using uh Yeah, we have no issues.
+
+[0:50] We just decided to do this. Well, I you know I just want everyone to know that Jack is working on uh the some of the music you're listening to while you're waiting for me to show up. Right? Is that true? You're writing the music?
+
+[1:00] Oh yeah, that's always been mine, yeah. Yeah, nice. Shout out to Jack. Thanks. Uh but uh I also I brought you know, Jack told me to bring in some of my college bands.
+
+[1:09] We might hear some of that later, some of my college band stuff since there's no copyright issues with that. And uh Jack, I know they're not a sponsor, but can we listen to the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef song later on? You might have to wait until they sponsor, but oh come on, really? They'll be back soon. We've got a TechServe commercial for you today.
+
+[1:24] Really? But Hearst Ranch grass fed beef is like the best song. It's my fa I like sing that jam as I'm walking around the streets. I'll tell Brian that Brian Kenny. It's good stuff, right?
+
+[1:35] Yeah, it's awesome. You should have seen the face Nastasia made when she uh when I told her we'd be playing your band today. Oh, is it was it worse than vegan or similar to uh on par. On par with vegan face? No.
+
+[1:44] Yeah. Uh so uh another thing, uh, last week when I started the show, I was so out of breath that uh you could literally hear me gasping for air during the first segment. This time I'm a little more rested because uh I almost died on the bike ride over, which is part of the reason I was a little later than uh even normally. Uh for those of you that uh well, everyone who listens to the show knows that Nastasha hates hipsters more than almost anything else on earth besides good weather. And um, but you you might not know that Nastash and I both ride fixed gear bicycles.
+
+[2:13] Now, for those of you that uh you know are gonna cry foul that all that we're actually secret hipsters, we both ride folding fixed gear bicycles, which are about the least hip bicycles on earth. But uh today when I was demon pedaling down the uh down slope on the uh on the Williamsburg Bridge, I threw my chain. And uh for those of you a fixed gear bicycle, throwing a chain is uh is uh can be really dangerous because it can lock your back wheel and send you flying off onto the onto the thing. Anyway, luckily I didn't die and I didn't make it here uh on time. So uh well, no, I mean late, but you know, not dead.
+
+[2:47] I made it not dead. Yeah. Right? Good. Anyway, call your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[2:52] That's 718497 2128. I want to start with I had two separate comments uh in the questions today uh about a new circulator that's on Kickstarter called uh what's it called there styles? Namico? Yeah. Namico?
+
+[3:06] Yeah. Did you know who made Namico? Uh Weep. Why didn't you mention this to me? Why you knew this and you never mentioned it to me?
+
+[3:12] You knew he was making the circulator? I read it this morning. Anyway, so I went on the I go on the thing and someone's like, hey, look at this circulator. And I and I look at it, and it's like one of the creators is is BAM. First of all, we pop.
+
+[3:25] If you're out there, we pop. Uh we pop, we pop slash bam soupypot, uh, is is one of our former interns, worked with us at the FCI. We love Weepop. Weepop's good business. So uh Weepop, whose name is Weepop, which is the greatest name on all time of all times, decides that he needs a nickname and goes by BAM, which is not even partially as cool as Weepop.
+
+[3:47] True or false. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so uh Wee Pop is out there making a circulator, and two separate people, two separate non-Weepop people, have uh written to see what I think about it. And you go, it's look Namico, you can look for it on Kickstarter.
+
+[4:00] He they need an extra, I think $40,000 in the next how many? Like 14 days or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, they need another uh of like $50,000. They got $160,000 or so out of $200,000 that they need uh to get their Kickstarter money.
+
+[4:15] Uh but he's designed this uh this immersion circulator that looks a little bit like a shower head, it looks kind of like a wee pop design, right? Uh it's got one knob. Uh what is it do you can you find out what the price is supposed to be? Okay. Yeah, find out what the price is supposed to be.
+
+[4:28] Uh my one comment on it uh as opposed to the ones that I use. Uh it's you know, it's a little bit less powerful, it's 750 watts instead of a thousand, but it's made for uh home people, and good luck to good luck to Weepop, right? Yeah, yeah. Good luck. I mean, I love myself some weepop, you know.
+
+[4:44] Uh I wish that instead of coming out with a circulator, he would make some of the food products I want him to make, like weepop sickles, we pop corn. You know, it right? I mean, wouldn't that be great? You wouldn't want that? I like that he's doing this.
+
+[4:55] Oh yeah, he well, can't he do both? Can't he have weepop corn? It's pretty amazing that he came up with this so quickly. Well, he just rapid products does it doesn't, I don't think they it's not in production yet. Still.
+
+[5:05] Yeah, it's like a it's like a ra rapid, it's a you know he has I think rapid prototyping work on it. And we pop, aside from going to school for culinary, uh went to school uh as an industrial designer, currently living in Bangkok, and I thought doing tr like training, like stock trading. Yeah. Last time we spoke to him, he was doing stock training. Weepop.
+
+[5:24] Man of man of many pops, weepop. Love weepop. Okay. Uh so that's all I'm gonna say about Namiko right now, right? That's both questions I answered.
+
+[5:31] Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Uh okay. I suppose this is really a food issue rather than a cooking issue. Uh but I was curious to hear your opinion on the prospective large soda ban in New York.
+
+[5:42] Uh it seems Dave is a bit of a bubble addict, and while I know this might be more of a political issue, I figure it couldn't hurt to ask Pat. Uh well listen, Pat, uh and anyone else out there, you are welcome to ask us uh food and wheat uh issues as opposed to cooking issues, and uh we have no problem uh making pronouncements or uh getting political, right? Mm-hmm. I think it's uh oh, and by the way, what we're talking about here is uh Bloomberg has proposed a ban on selling sodas, sugarful sodas, uh larger than sixteen ounces. So in New York City, uh 20 ounce soda bottles would be illegal or to sell, uh sugarful ones, you could buy sugarless ones.
+
+[6:24] Uh and uh like big gulp well, heck no, big gulps I think are are still legal. But there's some sort of weird thing, like certain venues can sell it, like convenience anyway, there's there's all these kind of weird things. But restaurants wouldn't be able to sell sodas larger than uh sixteen ounce. And the the theory behind it is that uh i i you know their feeling is is that sodas are empty calories, a term which I detest. I detest the word empty calorie almost as much as I detest the word junk food.
+
+[6:49] Uh and uh because I think it's stupid, there's no there's no foods that are inherently evil. There are bad habits, right? There's no such thing as food that's inherently evil unless you add literal poison to it. Or somehow you're destroying the earth actively by eating it, you know, like on purpose. Like, you know, I don't know, or like, you know, that you're told that eating this piece of food will cause someone else to suffer in another country on purpose.
+
+[7:12] I mean, like there's no literally very few literally junk bad foods, just bad habits. Anyway, so rather than trying to change people's habits, right, rather than through education and habit changing, uh they want to stop New York City uh residents from consuming calories in the form of soda by literally limiting what can be sold. Think it's dumb. Uh what do you think, Nasasha? Have you thought about it at all?
+
+[7:38] No. What do you think? Wait, to be clear though, it's this is sugar sodas, not just carbonation, right? Yeah, but they're not gonna in other words I can go correct. I mean it's not anti-carbonation.
+
+[7:49] It's it's basically trying to make a stab against the rise in diabetes here here and across the country. What about noncarbonated sugary drinks? Uh I I'm not sure. I know that juices are exempt which are extremely high in calories. I know that like you know your 8,000 quart milk uh beverage from Starbucks is exempt.
+
+[8:12] You know, that has like 5000 pumps of syrup in it and you know has a billion and a half calories that that they call a coffee but isn't it actually a jug of milk. Like that one is is exempt. And people are fat and people do have diabetes, you know what I mean? On the other hand, uh I think this is an incredibly poor way about uh you know of tr of trying to fix it. It's it's it's on the order of, you know, I I don't know, i i it you know how they say you people are just treating symptoms rather than causes?
+
+[8:51] There're just treating uh like a simple symptom rather than rather than uh you know any sort of the of the root root causes. The problem is is that uh people's dietary habits in general are bad. And I think the reason why our dietary habits in general are bad is because we have this demented idea about food anyway, that there's these things such things as good foods, you know, or like like junk food uh versus like food that's really good for you, and then people all of you know, people feel that, well, I'm not eating healthy anyway, so I'm gonna go completely ape shit, and then they drink like eighty-five quarts of uh of soda and go and go horrible instead of just having everyone try to meet in the middle, a sensible diet. You know, like you don't try to try to be some you know ascetic vegan monk who only eats like you know half of a vegetable once every three days and consider that healthy, which I don't find that healthy, right? Or versus someone who pounds 85 Big Macs a day.
+
+[9:46] I don't consider that healthy either. You know what I mean? Like neither of those is healthy. Healthy is meeting in the middle, and I think uh, you know, the way to get us to start thinking that way isn't to put a ban on something, i.e. to make it more when you put a ban on something like that, you're basically making it more enticing to people.
+
+[10:01] You're saying, oh, you can't have this, it's forbidden, so it must be good and fun and awesome. You know what I mean? I think the way to do it is to change the education, uh change the way we think about food in general, stop thinking about uh the you know what you know foods as being inherently healthy and unhealthealthy, think of habits as being healthy or unhealthy. That's my my feeling on it. I think this is an incredibly uh poor way to go about legislating health.
+
+[10:26] I think we shouldn't be legislating dietary habits. I think it's not the government's business in general to be le legislating my dietary habits. Um that's just my feeling. You have any thoughts now that you've heard me spew about it? I agree with you.
+
+[10:38] What do you think, Jack? Uh I think it's I think any effort is better than no effort, but I don't think it's gonna go through anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. But in other words, like I mean, like an effort would be to try and help somebody this like it's also the there's these undercurrents, it's like really they're not aiming they're not aiming this legislation at you know the all the the thin uh rich uh um people who go to the gym eight times a day who live in the wealthier parts of New York. Let's be honest about it.
+
+[11:09] That's not who they're facing at, right? Instead, they're trying yet another social legislation against uh poorer people uh who you know don't have that much money uh and they're basically assuming that these people the only way we can help them is through legislation, because clearly, you know, we're we're not reaching them any other way. I d I in in general I detest any sort of social legislation uh directed at particular socioeconomic groups because it smacks to me of all the stuff that when we hear about it when it was legislated in the 1800s and the 1900s, we're like, damn that was racist and crappy. Do you know what I'm saying? And now we look at it now, it's like, well, we're just trying to help them be more healthy, right?
+
+[11:50] In fifty years, won't we not look back at it and say, damn, another, you know, another basic uh racist uh you know socioeconomic put down? You don't think so? But at least it got the conversation started, did it not? What? We're all talking about soda and portion size now.
+
+[12:05] Well we're but you know the th but look, portion size has been addressed by people like Marion Nessel for uh a long time. The question isn't I mean, portion sizes have definitely gone up. The question is, why does the average uh lower middle class uh person in another country who still has the means to buy an absurd amount of soda if they wanted to, right? Why is it that those people aren't buying huge sodas? Why is it that those people aren't getting fat?
+
+[12:29] And why is it that our people are, right? And it's it's a mental issue. It has you know it like it's like, oh, the portion sizes got bigger as though it was an elephant that suddenly started growing when in fact people are ordering the larger portion sizes. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like the So to try and to try and staunch the tide by saying, Well, no, it's it's the soda that's it's it's the soda that's to blame.
+
+[12:51] It's not the soda that's to blame. It's the fact that we're ordering larger sodas to blame. Burger King clearly is making money by selling larger sodas, and McDonald's clear is clearly making money by selling larger sodas, right? Which means that uh the the way that we purchase things is demented. No?
+
+[13:07] Well, one one last thing. I had to go to Long Island to see some friends, and it was really late, and the only thing open was Burger King. I hadn't had it in a long time, right? So I I pick a value meal and they say, Do you want a medium or large? So I'm like, you know, the medium.
+
+[13:19] And that medium drink was enormous. I couldn't even imagine what the large would be. Large is large. Right. You know what I mean though?
+
+[13:25] Like to to sell a you could swim in the large. Yeah, to sell a 32-ounce medium drink is just kind of ridiculous. They should at least regulate that. Well, I don't mean look, you don't have to drink the whole damn. Do you really feel only I I'm the only person I know who feels obliged to finish everything I order, right?
+
+[13:41] I mean, you're not obliged to pound, and first of all, unless you're with Nastasha, that 32 ounce cup has about 22 ounces of ice in it. You know what I mean? That's very true. Do you order your drinks without ice? Nice.
+
+[13:52] She says it's because she doesn't like the feeling of ice against her teeth. It's really because she's a psycho and wants every nickel's worth. I know her. She's cheap, just like I am. I really don't like ice in it.
+
+[14:00] But you're using a freaking straw on it anyway. What does it matter if there's ice in it? There's a collar. Okay, call listen, by the way, come beat me down on this, please. Please be beep beat the hell out of me on this.
+
+[14:08] Call her, you're on the air. Hi, uh, yeah, uh, this is uh James Ray. Uh uh love the show. Uh listen to it every week. Um the uh I have a question.
+
+[14:18] I have a vacuum reduction rig that I set up. Um I thought it would be less fussy or persnickety than a uh rotovap system. Probably is rotovaps are pretty persuasive. Um it's uh I mean basically I had to add a twenty gallon water reservoir to it to keep the water cool. Um whenever I get, you know, whenever I try to do something that's a little jammy, whenever it gets to a point where it could kind of get where I want it, it starts bumping, even though I've got the pellet in there that's spinning.
+
+[14:53] Um so do you have any advice that I could use in kind of reining this in? Is there a kind of a best practice that I'm missing out on here? All right, here's here's the here's the deal. One, uh the the the things that you've noted are known known actual things that some of them are gonna be very hard to get around. Um it takes if you if you just look at the numbers, right?
+
+[15:16] Of the the heat of fusion, which is uh what what it takes uh for you to um when you're melting ice, right? When you're melting ice for cooling, you get the heat of fusion per gram back. The heat of v heat of vaporization is a much higher number. Uh so to recondense uh water that you've boiled off, it takes uh an intensely larger amount of energy than it does to melt the ice. I think it's on the order, it's on the order of six times.
+
+[15:42] I forget the exact numbers, but it takes about six kilos of ice, uh, assuming per like perfect efficiency to uh condense one liter of water. Well, actually I've been able to I've got kind of something like a wart filler in there and I've got it hooked up to another uh pump that is pumping water through my uh my aspirator. So I've got and I've got a high end I've got the really kick uh a butt aspirator. Right. Um so it but it's but it's still kind of annoying like the whole thing, like I said, very fussy.
+
+[16:17] Like I mean I get uh every once in a while I get what I want out of it, but I kind of have to sit there and fiddle with it. Um how much how much ice do you have stirrer on it that I got before that was digital which was a huge mistake. Um but yeah so I yeah. Well you're you're chilling your aspirator water though, right? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[16:38] Yeah, I mean like 'cause I I set up a rig like that with a bunch of aspirators and a flowjet pump, which I might have talked about at one point like, you know, early on in the shit that I got I stole off of a um a meth lab website. You know, so it's not kind of as nice as the built together aspirators, but it kind of functions the same thing. And I tore through ice in that thing with the pumps, pour through it. Um bumping, um remember you're gonna like the the magnetic stir rod will beat down bubbles after they happen, but the bumping is happening because there aren't any bubbles in it. And all and you superheat it and then all of a sudden a large bubble forms and creates a bump.
+
+[17:15] So it's it'll it'll stop frothing like the the the spinning thing will s uh stop frothing on your initial boil out, or it'll help. But it won't help with bumping. What you need to do to help with bumping is to install a very, very fine and you're gonna as you get more and more of syrup, you're gonna need this a very, very, very, very fine tube down into the product with a needle valve and let the minutest amount of air in to initiate bubbles in the product as you're making it. And it's the tiniest, tiniest bleed of air. Uh and uh it'll raise your temperature a little bit because you won't be able to suck as good of a vacuum as you would otherwise.
+
+[17:57] Uh and but it's gonna radically it'll strip some flavor out of it, but you've already really reduced it quite a bit anyway, so a lot of the volatiles are gone. But it's the only way to really prevent uh massive amounts of bumping. In fact, when you're doing um hardcore reductions with of things like port wine, uh Madeira in a roto vap uh or orange juice or apple juice or whatever, when you get down to the last stage in a roto vap, you're constantly needing to bleed small uh like hits of air into the system to get it to boil again properly instead of like the instead of the distillation dying out and then and then bumping. So you don't even need to continuously let air in. If you just have like a little thing you can go and let a small amount of air in and it'll initiate some violent but non-bumping boiling uh after that happens, and then once it settles down again, give it a small punch of air again, you'll initiate violent but non-bumping boiling, and that's really the only effective way to get that last little bit of water out.
+
+[18:58] Cool. Okay, thanks a lot. Hey, no problem. Uh tell us how it works. All right, I will.
+
+[19:03] Cool, thanks. Um, well, I guess I spewed enough about the uh uh about the this the soda ban uh whatnot. We could talk more about it later. I look I encourage anyone to call and beat our faces in for this. But uh, you know, do it, do it.
+
+[19:18] Anyway, let's go to break. Hey Seltzer, been in my fridge so long. Seems that partial pressures made you taste all wrong. Hey, seltzer. Think I'll add a lemon.
+
+[20:24] Make you taste much better. Why don't you ID that track for us, dude? That is uh that is that is seltzer. Uh track that uh one of my college bands, Bluto did. I'm playing uh bass.
+
+[20:35] That was nineteen ninety, I think, nineteen ninety or nineteen ninety-one. So way back in the day when uh, you know, I was playing bass on a daily thing. But the concept of this is that you had a bottle of seltzer in your fridge, and you you drank portion of it, and then you let it sit there and it turned to crap, and and then you it tastes horrible like semi-flat seltzer tastes horrible, and you think you're gonna make it taste better by adding lemon. It's like who am I fooling? Who am I fooling?
+
+[21:02] This is horrible stuff. Hey, seltzer. Hey, seltzer. So clear and so cool. Now you taste worse than water.
+
+[21:09] Anyway, that's how the that's how the song goes. We could play that more eventually, right? Not today, but all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[21:15] It's, you know, it contains no curses, unlike some of my other songs. Uh anywho. So uh we're gonna actually Nastash, we're gonna have to have another break later so we can play our TechServe song. Give me some TechSurf song, Jack. Just say Texur Song.
+
+[21:26] Tech Surf song. Yeah, tech. Is that yours or someone else? Not a song. It's actually a commercial me and Joe did.
+
+[21:31] It's uh it's great. Yeah, it's awesome. You'll see. I'm looking forward to it. Uh hi all, longtime listener, love the show.
+
+[21:38] Uh experimenting with making my own sausages and would now like to know how much fat to add uh to a mixture and what type. First, I do not know how much fat is in the cut of meat I'm working with. I currently use beef chuck, uh, but would like uh a way of testing any piece of meat. And second, how much fat should there be? I realize it's a taste issue, but uh how much would you use?
+
+[21:56] And lastly, for religious reasons, I won't use pork. What type of fat is best to use to increase the total fat content? Thanks a lot, Justin in Israel. All right. Well, uh, it is a matter of taste, but there's a lot more fat in sausage than you think.
+
+[22:10] You want anywhere between uh I think 30% fat total content to one third fat total content, and sometimes even uh more, right? But that's the range you want to hit, about one third fat. But you hit the nail on the head, uh Justin, when you said it's very difficult to know how much uh fat is in um a product. Now, I consulted my uh the professional charcuterie series by uh Marcel Cottensaw et al. Which is this lunatic old French series with like these three lunatic old French dudes with the tall like rooster chicken head hats on, like on the front, like you know, surrounded by plates and plates of meat with that weird half French smile.
+
+[22:51] You know what I'm talking about? That Frenchy half smile thing? Anyway, uh, and uh, you know, i They mainly are using uh pork, obviously, but uh they kind of reinforce what what I was saying, which is you want about one-third uh fat in the mixture. Now, when you're making sausages, the important thing is the fat should be uh hard, relatively hard, because you don't want it to render into nothingness as the sausage is cooking. That's why when you are using pork, if you're gonna supplement the fat that you're using, you typically supplement with um back fat, because back fat is hard, it grinds nicely, it doesn't have like a lot of sinews, and you can get it in kind of big chunks.
+
+[23:31] So that's kind of the sinequan non of sausage fats. In beef, um, I would probably for added beef fat, I would probably use um you know the like like the cap of fat that's trimmed off of the outside of uh a rib, standing rib, you know I'm talking about. Like I would use something like that that's pretty hard, uh, that's gonna withstand kind of uh you know chopping and cooking, and that also tastes good. Uh some people I I think use kind of suet, which is the kidney fat, but it's kind of weird and dry, and it renders actually quite well, so I wouldn't use something like that. I think I would stick to the type of fat that you would find uh on on the cap of let's say a rib roast or something similar.
+
+[24:10] Um, uh I looked up uh I found on the on the interwebs uh that uh pork shoulders are approximately uh 75 to 25, and I think chuck roast, uh which is I think what you said you were using, I can't remember, roughly similar. So I would supplement with a little bit of fat. If you're using like a really fatty kind of chuck, I would substitute a little fat. But the classic, you know, Mid East fat to use, uh, especially in uh you know, kind of Muslim applications, would be lamb. And in fact, they raise in the Middle East, which I would love to have access to, have never tasted it, special fatty lambs that have fat that is used to make delicious sausages and cured meats.
+
+[24:51] In fact, they have a fatty lamb with a fatty lamb tail, where they cure just this extremely fat tail and eat it almost like you would eat, I think like a lardo, but I've never had it. So I I can't really uh say anything about it. But I I would definitely um I would subs I would add some fat to what you're using. Let me see what you what you said you were using again. Yeah, chuck.
+
+[25:10] So if you're getting really fatty chuck that's untrimmed, I mean I don't really know of a test to test how much fat is in the meat proper. I mean, I guess it's theoretic theoretically you could weigh it and then do a volume situation, figure out the density. But the best thing to do is just look on the interwebs and try and find what the fat content of that cut is. It's really also going to depend on the specific marbling content of the meat. Uh so it's difficult.
+
+[25:33] If anyone has a test, or I'm gonna I'll try and look maybe during the week if I have time to figure out a good test and talk about uh next time. But I would substitute in a good hard fat. If you have a nice fatty piece of chuck, I would assume it's about 25% fat, and you're gonna want to add more to get it up to that one third number, right? Uh or use lamb or duck fat, I think works uh as well. I've made sausages with duck fat because duck fat can be pretty hard sometimes if you get the the good part.
+
+[25:57] What do you think, Stuff? It's a good answer. Alright, Justin, good luck with that, and give us a give us a holler back. Uh okay. Mike writes in greetings from Taiwan.
+
+[26:07] Love the show. Whenever I download a new episode, it's like an old friend coming to visit. Thanks for all your hard work. That's nice, right? Uh here's my question.
+
+[26:14] I am a spice freak. I have traveled a bit through Malaysia and Sri Lanka, lucky. Uh, and always head to the spice markets to see what's available. The quality and variety are incredible. I inevitably fill half of my suitcase with spices, and then I'm left wondering how to best keep them in my Taiwanese apartment.
+
+[26:28] Should I keep them chilled in the freezer or refrigerator, or will condensation affect the spices much like it does coffee? I already know that buying whole and grinding to order will help maintain quality and increase the longevity of product, but would welcome any other advice. Okay, look. Like everything else in the world, everything depends. Things like leaves.
+
+[26:48] Spices that are leaves, fresh leaves, right? You can freeze them, but the problem is is that when you freeze them and thaw them, they're usually damaged by the thaw procedure, and then enzymes in leaves break them and turn brown. This is why uh like tender leaf herbs are very not very good when they're frozen. So those typically, even though they're not the same as fresh, are gonna be best kind of lightly dried. Once they're lightly dried, the enzymes aren't gonna work anymore.
+
+[27:15] Then you can freeze them. Any case, uh the problem with coffee, coffee is very like a dry, dry good that's gonna be ruined, especially due to the kind of the brewing process and what goes on by water and condensation. So you definitely don't want to have coffee go in and out of the freezer because condensation will form. If you are gonna do this on an extended basis, purchase a vacuum machine, and even a home vacuum machine is gonna be good for this kind of thing. Vacuum the products down so there's not a lot of external moisture in it or oxygen, and then when you freeze it, you're gonna have less damage uh due to freeze sauce cycles in your freezer.
+
+[27:47] The main problem with uh keeping things in the freezer in terms of quality is freeze thaw, freeze thaw, freeze stuff, freeze thaw, right? Uh and so I would say that long-term storage, I mean, I have to buy a lot of my leaf spices like curry leaf and things like that, frozen here in New York because that's the only way they come in. Or key for lime leaves. Uh I buy them frozen because that's the only way I can get them. Uh, and you too can store your your products that way.
+
+[28:11] If you need to, I would recommend vacuum packing and getting all of the um air out. Even if you're going to store them on a shelf. Vacuum packing once, even though that vacuum pack is going to get rid of a little bit of the aroma, is going to be a good long-term storage uh procedure because you're not going to have uh any spices that might be damaged by oxidation or anything like that, uh, which is going to keep them more intact. Fridge is generally not. Meh, yeah, fridge.
+
+[28:34] Meh. What do you think, stuff? Yeah, bridge. Because like stuff can grow in the fridge. If there's if there's water in it, I wouldn't store it in the fridge.
+
+[28:40] If there's not what, I mean, you know, it's like meh, you know? Yeah. No? Anyway. I hope that helps, Mike.
+
+[28:46] Let us know, uh, let us know what you got there. And you know, and I generally don't like the home uh uh vacuum machines, but I think for that kind of a thing, it's it's probably adequate. This is my feeling. Uh someone call me and tell me I'm an idiot. Uh you know, I usually am, right?
+
+[29:00] Uh Michael Natkin from Herbavora's uh wrote in and said, uh I've got a question for you guys about making cultured butter. At uhterra in New York City, Matt Lightner served a washed rind cheese cultured butter. I figured out how to make it at home. It's easy enough. I take one pint, 467 grams of good organic cream, 25 grams of a rind from a funky cheese.
+
+[29:21] I used Calgary Creamery Red Hawk. Fancy, expensive. Uh mix, let's stand room temp till it thickens and the cream tastes funky. Took about a level uh 14 hours for me. Refrigerate overnight.
+
+[29:32] Uh you actually, and it's important to refrigerate overnight. Uh when you're churning cultured butter, if it's warm, it just it's just a freaking nightmare getting making butter out of it, uh, just so you guys know. Churn, drain, knead, rinse, voila. Ah, I would not I would not rinse it. I don't know why you're uh I love the taste of the whey in uh you know the buttermilk that's in uh butter.
+
+[29:51] So like when I'm making my butter, I usually under, I usually under knead it, and I usually don't rinse it at all. I'll knead it in the thing and then squeeze out just enough to keep it, and I love the taste of it. It will not keep as long. Uh and it's not good for cooking at that point because it's not good for cooking because it's got more water content in it, but as a something you're gonna spread on bread, I love it with a little bit of the extra buttermilk left in. So I wouldn't over knead it and I wouldn't rinse it.
+
+[30:17] This is my feeling. But that's not his question. His question is, how do I know this is safe? I'm eating it and it tastes great and it seems fine to me, but I'm a little leery about serving it to other folks since I don't really have the knowledge to say that leaving the cream out for 14 hours is okay. Of course, people do it with making creme fresh as well, but is it safe?
+
+[30:33] Uh P.S. I took uh Dave's advice on hitting up Corinne, our knife friends, you know, Salari San for a carbon steel knife and the DMT two-sided diamond sharpening stone. Took a chance on the 70-30 bevel, and I'm not finding it too hard to sharpen accurately, though greed is more challenging than a traditional Western or a traditional Japanese knife. I'm loving both the knife and the stone, and it's easier to have a razor sharp edge every day with this setup. Well, thanks.
+
+[30:54] That's very nice. Um okay, so the wash rind cheeses uh typically the ones I looked up uh use a bacteria called brevi bacterium linens. Uh so if that's gonna culture it, if that's gonna be what's culturing the uh the buttermilk, right? Typically that's not what you would have uh to culture cream. You would use a lactobacillus would be in there to culture cream.
+
+[31:14] Uh hopefully you're also getting a lactobacillus in there. I looked up uh, you know, I looked up the kind of the characteristics of wash wine cheese rind cheeses and the Brevi Bacterium linens is typically has a lower acid, i.e. a higher pH than normally cheeses would uh of that of that type uh without that bacteria. So you're talking about a higher pH uh situation. In cultured buttermilk, or in cultured uh cream rather, that you're gonna turn into butter, uh, the safety val the safety of it um is is because of the acidity that's being caused by the uh lactic acid bacteria as it cultures.
+
+[31:50] Um I looked up some studies in general, and uh what you want uh to make sure that nothing is gonna be bad is that uh you want the pH to go low lower than four point six uh within uh about six hours, which is the limit for uh toxins from um uh staff stuff to start growing in it. Um I wasn't able to find whether or not uh the Bravi Bacterium Linens has its own sort of way of killing uh things like staph or listeria or or or uh E. coli or things things of this nature. I mean I wouldn't freak out over it. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:27] Like I wouldn't flip my lid over it. I'm I'm I'm gonna try to McGee is re Harold McGee has researched all this stuff. I need to talk to him anyway to see whether or not we're gonna go taste mangoes again this year. Uh but I'm gonna try to remember to hit him up on that because it's it's very uh it's very interesting uh question. Uh anyway, so apparently I don't I don't know that much about it.
+
+[32:46] Right? Sorry about that. Uh okay. Uh Paul Peterson writes in and uh says, Do I have any thoughts on patented cuts of meat? And he's talking patented cuts of meat, and he's talking about the Vegas strip steak.
+
+[33:00] So why don't we take a break and we'll come back and talk about the Vegas strip steak. 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Man, I need a new computer. I guess I'm gonna have to go to the Apple store.
+
+[33:12] What? Don't go to the Apple store, go to TechServe. What's TechServe? I thought Apple Store was the only choice. No, you're crazy.
+
+[33:19] TechServe is so much better than the Apple store. They're New York's original and still the best Apple computer, iPod, and iPhone store and repair shop. Plus, the store is really cool. You gotta go check it out. They're located at 119 West 23rd Street.
+
+[33:32] Well, that settles it. I'm I'm headed to TechServe. TechServe is a proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network.org. For more information, visit TechServe.com. That's T E K S E R V E dot com.
+
+[33:43] What? Go to TechServe. I love that. Give me some what? What?
+
+[33:49] There you go. There you go. Nice. Nice. Strong.
+
+[33:52] Strong. Okay. Uh we're remiss. Uh acephalopod on Twitter asked this about eight million times and is getting irritated with us for recommendations in Tokyo. Now listen.
+
+[34:03] Uh the sad truth is that Nastasha and I didn't get to eat out as much. Who you really want to talk to is Mark Ladner because he spent every day eating out. Now, those of you that read the blog, um by the way, there'll be a new blog post up as soon as this is over. I'm just waiting for the YouTube video to load up on Ikajime. And I know I said I wasn't gonna write super long posts anymore, but it's a long freaking post on Ikajime.
+
+[34:24] I just couldn't freaking help myself. Anyway, I couldn't help it. So it's coming up as soon as uh maybe during lunch I can get it up. Anyway, uh so those of you that read the blog know that uh that Nastasha and Mark Ladner and I went to Jiro's uh sushi and it was good, but I wouldn't spend 350 on it. What about you, Stas?
+
+[34:40] Yeah. Yeah. Mark, on the other hand, the next day went to Sushi Sawada and said it was the best sushi he's ever had in his whole freaking life. True or false. It's because I wasn't there.
+
+[34:48] Well, there's that. That means uh so yes, so it was even better because you weren't there, but he said that regardless of the company that it was the best sushi he'd ever had, right? Right. Right. Um what did you think of the sushi place at the at the Sakiki Market, the Iwashi place?
+
+[35:02] I thought it was good. I thought it was really good. It's a good place, also fairly well known. That you could see that on our blog actually, and there's a couple comments on the on the cooking issues uh saying where that restaurant is. This is sad, and Mark agreed with me too, and normally I like it's hard.
+
+[35:15] I don't want to recommend because they're our friends and everything, but the the Japanese, traditional Japanese restaurant, the Park Hyatt, I thought was pretty good. I ate there twice. Yeah. I thought it was really good. And Mark Ladner from Del Posto loved it, right?
+
+[35:26] And and you don't normally think of like, you know, Park Hyatt having like a really good, especially Japanese, and it was really good. I thought it was really good, what's the name of it? Koko way or something like that? Uh no, I don't remember. Look it up.
+
+[35:37] We'll see if we can look it up in time. Um, you know, I highly recommend going to Sakiji in general uh and just like try checking out all the stalls around it and uh just getting little bites bites to eat, buying fruit if you have the money, if you have the freaking money to buy fruit at Sakiji. Um what else did we eat while we were there that was really I mean go go to go to the chef's district street if you're a cook. Right. What else?
+
+[36:02] Anything? Oh, we went to Muranta San's Kaiseki restaurant, the Tokyo version of it, and I spoke to Dave Chang about it. He's like, ah, crap on the Tokyo version, he doesn't give a crap about Tokyo, you have to go to the one in Kyoto. But the presentation was great in the one in in Tokyo, but you know, I don't know. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
+
+[36:17] Sorry I'm so late in giving you that information. Okay. Uh Nastasha Dave and Jack, I have an odd question. While I was calibrating my circulator, I instinctively changed it to Celsius. Then I thought about it more.
+
+[36:28] Generally, recipes are metric because they're easier to scale, better to control, and more accurate, right? But from zero to a hundred uh degrees C, right, to the tenth, because most circulators are accurate to the tenth, there would be one thousand gradations. And from 32.0 degrees Fahrenheit to 212 degrees Fahrenheit, there would be 1800 gradations, meaning a higher degree of accuracy. I switched it regardless because most of the info out there is in Celsius slash metric, but for some reason, it seems that Imperial measurement might be better in this instance. Am I crazy?
+
+[36:58] Is it so little of a difference? It is easier to keep it metric because everything else is in the kitchen. By the way, uh the homemade circulator I have is running great. Thanks for the great podcast. And then you cut off who wrote it.
+
+[37:07] I don't have who wrote it. Anyway, we'll get it. Uh so here's the thing. No, you are not crazy. The Fahrenheit, and I've said this a long time, is a uh like it's uh it's a finer gradation.
+
+[37:18] This is why when I'm talking about the temperature outside, I always talk in Fahrenheit because you know, like, oh, it's 20 degrees out, it's it's great. What? It doesn't make any sense. Like Celsius degrees don't make any sense to me for the climate. Like I like a climate where like, you know, like zero is really, really, really, really cold, and like a hundred is really, really hot, and a hundred and twenty is really, really hot, and minus twenty is really, really, really, really cold, but all those things happen.
+
+[37:45] That's like a wide range. For climate, I use Fahrenheit. For deep frying, I use Fahrenheit. For baking, I use Fahrenheit, right? Because 375, it's beaten into my head like like nobody's business.
+
+[37:56] You know what I mean? But for sous-view work, I use Celsius. So I myself am of two minds. The Celsius scaling in temperature doesn't make a difference. And there's no reason why freezing is better thought of as zero versus thirty-two.
+
+[38:11] And there's no reason that boiling is better being thought of uh as a hundred versus two hundred and twelve. There's simply no reason. There's no better or worse with the scales, and uh there are more gradations without using tenths uh when you're talking about degrees in Fahrenheit. So uh, you know, it's really, you know, it's it's your choice, and I use them both. That there unlike uh decimal systems for scaling, there is no advantage to a Celsius, there's no inherent advantage to a Celsius degree, except in keeping it consistent, and if you're doing conversions back and forth using uh formula, for instance, if you're doing like ideal gas law computations or things like this, it's helpful to use Celsius because it scales to Kelvin, and then Kelvin can be used in ideal gas laws and stuff.
+
+[38:54] But if you're not doing that kind of stuff, it really doesn't make uh uh uh you know an iota of difference, right? That's chip. Hey Chip, that's my thoughts. Um before we leave, because Jack's gonna make us leave uh very soon, uh, giving a shout out because a listener wrote in uh Sarah Valentine from Brooklyn, but not from Bushwick. So probably not maybe not a hipster, right?
+
+[39:20] Hopefully. Anyway, she wrote in saying that uh wow, nuts. Well, there's also the Williamsburg Hipster. What's worse, a Bushwick hipster or a Williamsburg hipster? Williamsburg.
+
+[39:29] Whoa! Where do you live, Jack? Uh whatever. Okay. Uh so um Sarah Valentine writes in, friends with our uh, you know, our longtime listener buddy Ken Ingber.
+
+[39:43] And uh Ken has gotten her and her husband into sous vide cooking. They bought the uh and low temperature cooking, bought the under pressure, except maybe someday they'll buy weepop soupy pots uh uh circulator. But uh here we go. Said wants us to give a shout out, and this is our first actual shout-out like this, right? A shout-out for Ken Ingber's birthday on July 2nd uh before our next show.
+
+[40:08] So this is Ken Ken Ingber's birthday shout out from Cooking Issues. See you next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes Store.
+
+[40:42] You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by our friends at the International Culinary Center. For more information, visit www.nternationalculinary center dot com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold.
+
+[0:26] You're a host of Cooking Issues coming to you live at Reverse Pizzeria every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network.org, Jack.org. Oh man. Yeah. Joined as always with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, keeping the cooking issues machine running. Jack.
+
+[0:43] And of course, today we have a special guest, special guest producer, Aaron Marks, who bid for this uh guest producing spot uh at uh the last museum of food and drink uh fundraiser that we had. Right? Right? Uh now uh you know Aaron's actually working on an interesting uh food-related project right now, which I'm gonna let him talk about in a second. But remember, call in your questions to 718497-2128, that's 7184972128.
+
+[1:10] Now, Aaron, aside from bidding on this uh great thing and being with us today, was uh uh a long time ago, not that long, I guess, a member of my favorite Great Satan, which is uh the Gold Goldman Sachs, which I've always had actually a soft spot for strange, because I love history of finance is a great thing. He's not doing that anymore. Uh he is in fact working on a project called Deconstructing Dinner. You want to talk about that? Yeah.
+
+[1:33] And maybe about the Great Satan, because I love those things. Well we'll leave we'll leave my past out of it. Uh it's not it doesn't really sit well with a lot of people, but uh I have turned my passions towards uh towards my my my hobbies uh really, which is food uh and restaurants. So we are produced a documentary called Deconstructing Dinner on the Farm to Table movement, um, really to educate people on on the origins of food. Um really kind of the twist here is is that we we focus on individual staple ingredients.
+
+[1:59] Uh we've been filming with a couple really excellent chefs, Michael Anthony last week, Heather Carlucci in New York. We did the pilot with Michael Statlander on pork up in Toronto. He has a beautiful farm up there. And uh to supplement all the these great mini-series, uh we we have uh some webisodes and and a lot of extra bonus material that that linked these award-winning chefs in. So we're we're really excited for it.
+
+[2:21] We uh we're in the process of fundraising at the moment. Uh we need uh about sixty thousand dollars by July 20th. Uh you can check us out on the Kickstarter campaign. Uh we just we just passed a hundred backers online. Um so we're doing well.
+
+[2:33] Uh it's deconstructing dinner on Kickstarter. And you uh you've already filmed one of the last time I spoke with you is what you were working on eight or nine episodes. Yeah, we've we've uh we're focused on six at the moment. Um we have uh each of them is gonna be uh garlic or wheat or eggs. We we just did uh uh a shot on honey uh in a farm outside of New York.
+
+[2:52] Um and uh March 2013, spring 2013 is when we we hope we have a finished product. Right, and you're uh is he the is Declan the uh the director or the producer both? Uh, Declan Adriscal is uh Declan Adriscal and John Steim are the two two folks that I'm partnering with on this. Uh Declan is the filmmaker behind this. Uh he won a James Beard Award uh last year for his documentary called called Milk War, uh which was about raw milk.
+
+[3:17] Uh very fascinating story. And uh John Steinman is is kind of the I I guess I refer to him as the Mark Bittman of Canada. Uh he he he he's so well versed in in the the the farm to table movement uh and he he uh he does a lot of speech he goes around speaking about it. Um so he he actually had a radio show by the same name, Deconstructing Dinner, uh, and this is the reincarnation onto the screen. Nice.
+
+[3:39] So go to Kickstarter and go look at deconstructing dinner on Kickstarter. Exactly. That or just go to Deconstructing dinner.com. Right. All right, nice.
+
+[3:44] All right, very good. All right, so uh and uh Aaron also brought me I was been re we were talking last time we were talking about uh Michael Lewis, the uh the financial writer, and uh he I he just brought me a copy of the big short to read. I actually read his later book, Boomerang, which if you if any of you guys aren't interested in uh kind of financial history, I'm not interested in finances at all. I really could give a rat's behind about my own finances. I've never otherwise we I guess we'd be rich, right?
+
+[4:10] But anyway, uh but uh I don't really care about it, but I love I love myself some financial history, and I've sadly have been um you know lacking in recent financial history until uh Maria Gordon Shelley, our publisher for you know uh for my cocktail book and coming up, gave me a Michael Lewis book, and uh now Aaron you know brought me the other one. So hopefully I'm gonna be up to date uh with our current financial woes and the amusing history behind it uh very soon. Right? Yeah, well Michael Lewis is a great writer. Yeah.
+
+[4:36] Anyway, okay. Now on to questions. By the way, uh this one in from Pete actually gave a call out to Indie Jesus, but I'd like our our readers to know uh listeners to know that I have not seen Indy Jesus in a long time. Jack, have you seen Indy Jesus? I see.
+
+[4:49] I mean, I don't think he's working this shift anymore, but I have to say, really nice guy. Yeah, but is does he not work the shift because of his hatred for us? I mean, I guess it's possible, but I I I would guess not. No? No, no.
+
+[4:59] I mean, Jesus probably shouldn't have any hatred in him. There are plenty of other interesting characters around though. We just need to coin a name for somebody. All right. Well, for those of you that you know have never heard Indy Jesus is a waiter here who is uh looks like Jesus in in kind of indie rock clothes, and I I miss him.
+
+[5:15] I miss seeing Indy Jesus during the during the broadcast. I think he made our broadcast better just by his presence. It's true. Yeah. We had didn't we have a Manson Jesus for a while.
+
+[5:24] There are plenty of Manson Jesus'. Oh, that was at a coffee event. That was a different Manson Jesus was at a different event. Sorry. Okay.
+
+[5:31] Okay, love the podcast. I've been blitzing through your back catalog quickly as I just discovered it recently. Keep up the great work and thank you. Thank you. Question.
+
+[5:37] I recently purchased a combi steam oven. I wanted a small oven for day-to-day stuff, and I love to bake bread, and there's nothing that compares the steam for making that amazing crust. The oven does a great job with things like soft-boiled eggs in large quantities and steam fist, etc. And it has very precise temperature controls, which got me thinking I could use this bad boy for low-temp cooking in sous vide. And I would love to get your thoughts.
+
+[5:56] Pete, okay. Um okay, look. I don't know you you gotta write in and tell me what brand of combi oven you have. Uh uh the smaller ones, there used to be one made by Electrolux that kind of fit on a counter that was uh maybe microwave size or a little bit bigger. And uh of course Gaganao makes one that's fantastically expensive if you can afford Gaganau uh appliances in your home.
+
+[6:16] God bless. Um but um Combi Steve Oven, for those of you that don't know, is an oven that uses a combination of steam technology and convection technology, and recently have been used in restaurants to do uh low temperature cooking because they have very accurate temperature controls. And the reason they have accurate temperature controls is because they need accuracy to be able to uh be able to achieve the results that they want to achieve without any sort of human intervention. And the byproduct is that we get to use it for very accurate low temperature work, typically by setting uh the temperature of the oven below uh the boiling point, well below, uh, you know, down to like you know, uh 55 Celsius thereabouts, and 100% humidity, which gives good thermal uh transfer. Now uh commercial combi ovens are in the on average, the higher end ones, rationale being one and um uh electrolux being another, and uh there's you know several others, um, on average they are fairly accurate, but at any given second their temperature can fluctuate quite a bit, and it's because they inject steam into the cavity which shoots the temperature up, uh then the temperature goes down, they shoot more steam, it goes up, up, up, up, up.
+
+[7:24] So the answer is for very thin items, it does not work very well for low temperature cooking because those thin items can't handle the short-term over temp that you go through as the temperature porpoises back and forth. Uh thicker items can withstand that. Uh so the temperature of you know, modernist cuisine, um, Chris Young who's on the show and Nathan Miravold uh said the same thing in Maxime Belay when they were here, all you know, talked about this uh very interesting data that they had, which was they actually measured the temperature of combi ovens using many kind of high accuracy um uh temperature probes and showed that there was uh when I say wide, I'm talking like tens of degrees variation uh from second to second based on the internal temperature of the cavity. Now, how can you uh test this? Set your oven to a hundred percent steam, set the temperature to some temperature well below boiling, uh, and then test it with something simple like an egg.
+
+[8:16] If you stick an egg in there uh and after an hour the uh at sixty-two Celsius, and after an hour the yolk is still runny, but the it cracks out of the egg and has kind of a the the white has a very kind of, you know, uh custardy texture, I think, then that's a good sixty-two egg. You're pretty much good. Uh if you then set it to sixty three, go for an hour, and it's got a very creamy yolk, but it's all one texture, very creamy like a sauce almost, uh, then you've produced an accurate sixty-three degree egg. If you go to sixty-four degrees uh and your yolk is just set, just set, but still very, very soft, you have a very accurate sixty-four degree egg on a large egg. And these are extremely simple and extremely accurate and reliable temperature tests for um your combi to see whether or not you are getting the actual temperatures that you think you are getting.
+
+[9:07] If those three numbers come out right, then you're good. You know what I mean? And in fact, if your oven is repeatably wrong, right, you you can dial up or down a degree or two and figure out what your thing is actually set to. So if if if what I tell you is a 60 uh three degree egg actually happens at 65, well your oven's about two degrees hot uh in terms of the way that it it works, as long as the the humidity is a hundred percent. Ervate's made a a huge error uh you know those th those who know me know I'm no fan of Airvete's you know this is a well known fact I'm no fan of him or his his writing or his demagoguery.
+
+[9:43] But he believes that a 65 degrees Celsius uh egg is still runny uh and he did all of his tests in an oven and the reason his um the reason his numbers are completely wrong is because they weren't done in a hundred percent humidity environment and uh they were actually steam moisture was evaporating out of the egg during the process thereby lowering the temperature of uh the inside of the egg through evaporative cooling and because there was evaporative cooling the inside of the egg was roughly three degrees uh or so lower than the actual oven temperature was even though he was fairly accurately controlling his oven temperature. Just goes to show it happened when you don't really think about what you're doing, Airvay. Anyway, uh enough b bashing on uh Erve that that answers that question yeah? Yes. Yeah?
+
+[10:28] Yeah? Okay. And it presupposes that all eggs are the same. Yeah. Uh well, all large chicken eggs act I mean I'm talking this isn't just um this isn't like one or two eggs I've cooked over like for the past you know seven years I've been cooking a bazillion eggs uh as part of a teaching um you know it's part of teaching over the years.
+
+[10:49] And uh in the restaurant at the French culinary and at home. And I can pretty much tell whether or not equipment is right by how a large chicken egg is cooked in terms of time. Uh you know, other eggs might be slightly different, but the major ones, for instance, like some people have reported like slightly different temperatures on things like duck. I don't have any experience on ostrich eggs or things like that, although I have friends that do. Uh but they're pretty accurate, reliable measures of um of temperature.
+
+[11:19] You know, at least that's been that's been my experience. And they're incredibly cheap. And they're much easier to implement uh than trying to rig actual accurate um thermometers in your in your oven. I mean it's possible to rig an accurate thermometer, but you have to get a good rig. And uh, you know, on top of that, you have to mean it you can just go to a supermarket and buy a bunch of eggs.
+
+[11:42] Set the sucker at 63. Well what I would really set it at 63 Celsius, right? And then see whether the egg is set or whether it's runny or whether it's creamy. If it's creamy, you're dead on, right? If it's runny, then your oven is low.
+
+[11:54] And if it's set, then your oven is high, assuming you have a hundred percent humidity in that oven. That's another assumption that you gotta make. And then later on, if you want to get accurate thermocouples, you can test it and see what's going on, blah, blah, blah. But the reason I chose an egg is an egg is fairly thick. It takes uh a good um it takes a good hour for the very center of an egg to get uh within a half a degree or so of the temperature of uh in a water bath, that is.
+
+[12:19] So if you have a 10 minute fluctuation in temperature in your oven, an egg should be thick enough that most of that temperature fluctuation is taken up by the egg white and not by the egg yolk. And so you shouldn't get any over or under temp effects in the yolk after an hour of cooking because it should have evened out by then. That's why egg good choice, cutlet not so much. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[12:40] Anyway, okay. Uh what'd you say, Jack? You say something? No, I didn't. Yeah?
+
+[12:46] Should we go to our first commercial break? Yeah. Commercial break. Come back. Cooking issues.
+
+[12:51] If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom. That's why the French Culinary Institute has evolved into the International Culinary Center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills. You come to understand and to feel the whole culinary world. You have to network.
+
+[13:08] You have to observe the true meaning of world-class performance. You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the International Culinary Center's campuses in New York, California, and Italy, we will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at a very high speed. The International Culinary Center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian wine management, culinary technology, and food writing. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com.
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+[13:54] Why? Why? Welcome back to Picking Your Shoes. You're listening to Propeller by Bluetooth. Wow.
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+[14:16] You're pulling out all the old, all the old Bluetooth songs from the college days. Oh yeah. That like that song, I can remember playing that song wearing a uh flight helmet with a blast shield down with my fingers like spraying blood out of the base and the lead singer smashing me on the head with a microphone and that was a the nineties, the early nineties. Good times. Good times.
+
+[14:38] Anyway, uh we should we should probably see whether or not listeners mind being uh assaulted with uh my old college band. Because we could just move to you know, Jack's music. Anyway. Uh second question in. I'm fermenting two types of vinegar in my basement now.
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+[14:52] The first is a beer barley malt syrup vanilla vinegar, and the other is a bourbon buckwheat honey caraway seed vinegar. I'm using the method from ideasandfood.com with the live culture vinegar as a starter that is added to the alcohol mixture. The beer version was complete after three weeks, and the bourbon is already on week five. How long should I wait for the bourbon version before I start over? I'm thinking the alcohol content was too high for fermentation.
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+[15:14] Any thoughts, Elliot Papanell? Okay. Uh I looked for uh, you know, our good friend's Ide Ideas and Food, Alex Nacke. Uh I looked on their website for their vinegar method and wasn't able to find any explicit instructions on their website proper, but they did publish a uh an article on it in Popular Science. When they I are they still writing for Popular Science?
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+[15:34] Anyone know? I don't know. Uh but anyway, I looked at their popular science article um on it and in fact found a um a maple syrup uh a maple syrup um what's the word I'm looking for? Maple syrup rum vinegar base that they they made their vinegar out of. And so I'm assuming, Elliot, that you're basing it on on that technique.
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+[15:55] Uh here's what I'm thinking. There's a couple of things that can go wrong in uh vinegar. So vinegar, for those of you that uh have no idea how vinegar is made, you take a uh fairly low concentration of alcohol product uh and then acetobacter uh acetobacter acts on the alcohol and converts the ethanol to vinegar. Now, uh in the Ideas and Food uh recipe, they use 950 grams of maple syrup, which is a lot of freaking maple syrup, because it's eight they use 950 grams of maple syrup, 800 grams of what they call a live vinegar, which is a vinegar that is currently has active acetobacter in it, right? Um so assuming you're already making vinegar, you have some vinegar sitting around that's still live, so it has active acetobacter in it.
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+[16:40] Uh 300 grams of dark rum and 200 grams of water. If you calculate this all out, uh uh and I calculated it based on the assumption that the maple syrup was about eighty uh bricks, meaning eighty percent sugar and about twenty percent water, uh, you're gonna end up with a an alcohol, uh a water vinegar slash ethanol mix that's roughly uh 11% uh uh alcohol, I think. I gotta go look at my calculations again. I did it on Excel this morning, but I think it's roughly 11% alcohol, which is a good number, maybe even lower, maybe it's like eight, I forget, but it's a good number for acetobacter to work on. I was a little concerned uh with this that the because the bricks of this mixture is like 30%.
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+[17:22] It's very high bricks. Uh that bricks meaning bri bricks is the percent uh of uh of the weight of your product that is sugar. That's what bricks means. Uh and uh if you do the calculations, I think this mixture that that Ideas and Food has uh ends up about 30 bricks. There's good news and there's bad news with that, I mean, high bricks things usually tend to inhibit the uh action of bacteria because they really mess with um what's called osmoregulation, the ability uh for the cells to keep uh water, uh their water balance uh proper.
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+[17:50] But balsamic vinegar uh is uh made with musts that are even higher bricks than this. So clearly acetobacter can uh work in these environments. You are probably, and this is a good thing if you want to keep the sugar in it, if you want it to stay very sugary, uh the high sugar level and the massive acidity from the pre-made vinegar is almost surely inhibiting the uh inhibiting any further yeast activity. Uh basically, as soon as uh as soon as the uh acidity gets higher than about a percent or so, especially in it with a lot of the yeast is gonna have a tough uh time anyway with uh 30% bricks, really tough time. Uh and uh you know you need you'd need special yeasts anyway that were very sugar tolerant to be able to go up that high.
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+[18:35] And um and then within combination with that, with the fact that they're already using vinegar or yeast is not going to be a problem in this mixture. Uh so it should work. So your problems are probably you went too high in the alcohol and the acetobacter can't uh work, in which case dilute it some more and throw some fresh uh vinegar mother in. You can order, you know, uh acetobacter cultures and uh off of the internets. Uh two, you could have, although it doesn't sound like your ingredients in there like you have any preservatives that are gonna cause a problem, like uh or like chlorine can be a problem sometimes, or or whether you have uh sulfites because you're not adding a sulfited wine to it, so that's probably not a problem.
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+[19:07] You could have a problem with not enough oxygen contact if your vessel's not proper or if it's sealed too hard, or if you because acetobacter needs oxygen to live. So uh any one of these things can be a problem. Uh if you want to read more about vinegar, the book, like the book, is Vinegars of the World by uh Lisa, uh edited by Lisa Solieri and uh Paolo uh Giudici uh from uh 2009. Fantastical book, and they have uh sections on almost any kind of vinegar that you could um you could want. But you should uh take take a look at that one.
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+[19:38] Right? That makes sense? Yeah. Or you started with some dead dead vinegar too. That's the other thing, right?
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+[19:43] I would just look. If you don't already have a lot of vinegar lying around, just buy some freaking culture. Don't worry about trying to like go buy apple cider vinegar from a natural health food store and hope that it works. I've had this problem when uh culturing buttermilk, trying to make uh cultured butter, and you buy certain strains of certain things, even if they're not pasteurized, and it turns out that they're bacteriologically dead because they've been around a long time and the bacteria haven't survived enough for things to happen. So, uh I mean eventually you can you know do things based on wild cultures or just luck and hope and prayer, but you know, at the outset, if you want to make sure your results are good and your recipe is good, just start with a purchase culture.
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+[20:18] It's not that hard to get a hold of and it's fairly easy. That's my uh suggestion. Okay. Uh Tristan in Virginia writes in, hey everyone. I'm tenderizing pork shoulder in my home pressure cooker, and many uh and many recommendations I've seen online recommend the natural release method of pressure instead of quick releasing, citing a few manufacturers' websites and mainly Lorna Sass, an author of a pressure cooking cookbook.
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+[20:38] Sass strongly recommends natural release for meat, especially beef, claiming the fibers will be more tender. Why would a slower ramp down in pressure affect the meat fibers and why would beef behave more differently from pork or any other meat, assuming a similar leanness and connective tissue? Thanks from Tristan. Pressure cooking and uh natural release. Okay, so for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, uh pressure cookers, uh you seal your object in a in a pressure cooker, you heat it.
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+[21:03] Uh by by sealing it, you allow a pressure to build up that increases your temperature at which things cook. Things cook faster. They also cook differently. So an egg white, an egg, whole egg cooked in a pressure cooker turns brown because at the elevated temperatures in a pressure cooker, roughly 259 degrees Fahrenheit for 15 PSI over pressure at boiling, uh assuming straight water that is, uh egg whites will turn brown in an hour due to my hard reactions at the slightly elevated temperatures uh inside of a pressure cooker. Things like garlic, uh you destroy their pungency.
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+[21:33] We've we've talked about this before. I love pressure cookers, I love me some pressure cookers. But I also almost always recommend a natural release. And what that means is when you have a pressure cooker at 15 psi and you turn off the heat, it's going to keep on cooking for a while. That's just simply uh all there is to it.
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+[21:47] This is one of the good things about a pressure cooker, by the way, is that they take very once you get them hot, it takes a very, very low input of energy to keep them cooking because they're sealed, they don't throw a lot of heat on from the atmosphere. So in the summertime, even though you don't necessarily want to eat a lot of braises and stews in the summertime, it's an extremely efficient way to not heat up your house and do cooking, right? It also uses a very low amount of energy for the amount of uh cooking you can do in it. So it's it's great all around. But uh now you're stuck with a pot and it's gonna keep cooking.
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+[22:18] So there's usually there's some way to open the pot to the atmosphere and steam rockets out of it, right? That's the quick release, and even quicker sometimes release is to plunge the pot into cold water, which you know instantly lowers the pressure, sometimes even faster than releasing the steam. Uh or you just let it sit and let the pressure come down naturally as it cools, the pressure will come down. As soon as it gets below 212 degrees on the inside, there will be no more pressure on the vessel, and you can open it up with no problem. Now, uh I think you are absolutely correct, uh, Tristan, in that uh I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference whether it's beef, pork, chicken, fish, or whatever.
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+[22:54] I think you should almost always use natural release on anything that's delicate at all. Because what happens is um when you are when you release the pressure very suddenly, the water on the inside and outside and everywhere tends to violently boil. And what it does is rip things apart. And so the easiest thing to see it on is uh uh like if you pressure cook an egg and you open it very, very quickly, uh by opening stink you'll you you can blow the egg up. You know what I mean?
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+[23:21] Not violently, like microwave blowing up is violent, but you'll crack the eggs open. Uh if you've ever pressure cooked a can of evaporated uh sweetened condensed milk rather to make uh dulce de leche, you'll know that unless you let the can heat uh cool down quite a bit, when you open it, it'll squirt product everywhere because all of a sudden the pressure is is released. Beans tend to explode it if they're if they're released too suddenly. And the texture of meats can be very uh highly affected by uh violent sudden release. So I unless you know that your product is like really rough and tough and can handle the abuse of interior boiling, or unless you actually want to shred something apart by interior boiling, I almost always recommend uh natural release on a pressure cooker instead of allowing it to to to vent to the atmosphere.
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+[24:06] Sometimes it doesn't matter, but often uh often it does. You do any pressure cooking, Aaron? I don't do much cooking at all, actually. I uh I grew up in New York, so it's my kitchen was about the size of most people's closets. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
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+[24:17] You know what cooking in New York, a lot of people have problems cooking in New York. Uh there's size and also ventilation is a big issue. Everyone's apartment in New York is horribly ventilated for cooking. So any time you actually do try and cook, you uh you end up uh making the entire and then everyone's like, Oh, it smells of food. Yeah, but oil caked all over your ceiling is never pleasant.
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+[24:35] We have uh uh a call in from the studio if it's okay. This is Patrick Martins, by the way, who's uh he's like a uh what's up. I'm born and raised in New York City, and I've lived in some you know apartments, very, very small kitchens. I will say this it forces one to become better uh at very minimal ingredients, like for instance, cook or you know, uh techniques like cooking perfectly medium rare, you know, because you don't really have the luxury of space to be brazing and have like a Julia Child kitchen with stuff all over the place, but you do know how not to overcook a chicken because it's you alone with that thing and a pot of vegetables, you know. But I think brazing is fairly space efficient though, no?
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+[25:13] Like one pot braising? Um no, no, well, I don't know. You know what I mean? It's just like all these recipes. Everyone comes to the heritage meet shop, hey, give me a Boston butt because I want to do a 19-hour breeze, and I'm gonna make seven reduction sauces, you know, and me growing up in the city in a little, you know, stove pot.
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+[25:29] You know, I'm just like, let me just heat some meat perfectly and dip it in mustard, you know, something like that. Just simple, not trying to get too gastronomic about it. All right. All right. Yeah.
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+[25:42] What do you think about that, Nastasha? Uh I agree. I especially don't want to be in my apartment with no air conditioning for 18 hours braising something. You know, that's uh didn't I just tell you guys to buy a freaking pressure cooker if you're gonna brace? Did I not just get through telling you guys to buy a pressure cooker so that you're not heating up your apartment when you're doing a brace?
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+[25:59] Did anyone not hear me say that? We heard you. I heard you. Yeah, or the fact that in general you don't want braises in the freaking summertime. We heard you.
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+[26:06] Yeah. But you know what, you know what your New York City tiny apartment's not good at? Grilling a freaking steak. True. Yeah.
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+[26:13] I rely on my foreman every now and then. Oh, the foreman, you know, I never had one of those. A genius. Like George Foreman has nothing to do with cooking, right? At all.
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+[26:22] Nothing. They're like, hey, you're a good boxer, you have a bunch of children all named George. Why don't you be the rep for this product? He does have uh a talent in shaking and bacon though. Is that what he used to say when he was fighting?
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+[26:29] Are you actually referring to shaking baking and shit? Shaking and bacon. He did call him uh he did refer to himself as doing that once. But David Nelson of MPR, uh Lost and Found Sound, did a story on George Foreman Grill saying that it basically allowed uh homeless people to have a kitchen. I mean, if they just could get access to an outlet, they could basically prepare meals like people in their home.
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+[26:52] So it was a very kind of democrat uh, you know, project, more than people give it credit for. Wait, wait, wait. Homeless people could feel like they had home. Oh, homeless people who have the money for a George Foreman grill and an electric socket. Have you seen that movie about the mole people?
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+[27:07] Finding an electric socket. The mole people used to have the people used to live in what's called the Freedom Oh you could wait. Patrick, you can't leave after dropping that thing on. No. But I mean the vast majority of people that have no home also have no access to electric power.
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+[27:43] I mean that's true, that's true. But I mean you can get access. Damn it, if someone was like, get me access to an electrical outlet, I would do it. I would still figure it out somehow, even if I'm like going into the Middle Eastern restaurant around the corner and just borrowing his electricity for ten minutes. But I mean it did allow them to have a carry around portable kitchen.
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+[28:01] I mean, not a full kitchen, of course, but they could heat meat and grill like, you know. This has to be one of the craziest conversations we've ever had on the cooking issues radio show. You know, I'll tell you this though. When I lived in a dorm room and didn't have yeah, uh when I lived in a dorm room and didn't have uh a kitchen, I went to the thrift shop and bought a Westinghouse turkey oven from the 50s and used it to bake bread. I mean that was kind of my first oven away from home was this kind of thrift store oven.
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+[28:25] So dorm rooms mean. Yeah, uh guy cooked everything in a hot pot back then. Yeah, it's kinda like being homeless with the world's greatest support network around you, is what you're saying? With like everyone like just catering to every need that you have and not forcing you to have any responsibility other than that, completely like the real world. No offense to you college students out there.
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+[28:44] Anyway, uh I loved college. Nastasha's the only person who didn't like college. True? True. True.
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+[28:51] Yeah. All right. This is a this is a crazy day. Okay. Uh hello, Jack and Nastasha and Dave as well.
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+[28:57] Uh hope you guys are doing well with all the heat out there. My question has to do with sugar substitutes. I grew up being afraid of NutraSweet, sweet and low, aka saccharin, and other sugar substitutes, thinking that they cause cancer and lead to birth defects. I know that NutraSweet is banned in other countries, which is not to slightly look other can't countries ban lots of other weird things, by the way. Like what another country does, or our country for that matter, uh you know, isn't really a measure necessarily of whether something is safe or not, is a measure of whether or not there's enough of a public outcry based sometimes in fact and sometimes not.
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+[29:26] Uh anyway, uh banned in other countries. Uh my wife likes to drink diet soda, and I cringe when she does. Uh this just so you guys know. Uh for me I drink almost exclusively seltzer now, but for many, many years I only drank diet soda. That was what I drank.
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+[29:40] Uh because I grew up drinking it. That was my liquid of choice. And uh before I even finish this question, I will tell anyone out here who's gonna work for the who's buying things for their grill or barbecue or party for 4th of July tomorrow. If you are a regular soda drinker, you are going to purchase the incorrect amount of diet soda. Okay?
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+[29:58] This is you are going to get the wrong amount. Here's the here's how it works. When you are purchasing soda for a party, realize that someone who drinks a sugarful soda, let's just say Coke, right? Uh uh the average soda drinker will have maybe one glass of that coke, right? So a two-liter bottle will serve a good number of people for Coca-Cola, right?
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+[30:19] The average diet coke drinker will finish the entire freaking two-liter bottle themselves because they're gonna sit there and pound Diet Coke like the f like like nobody's freaking business. So I guarantee you that unless you yourself are a diet soda drinker, you underbuy your diet soda. Anyone here anyone here, what do you think? Agree, disagree? Well, I'll be drinking beer tomorrow.
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+[30:38] Yeah, well I'm saying so much about soda drinkers. What? Like we say you say that you don't care about your guests? Most guests drink. I think they're just gonna drink soda tomorrow.
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+[30:49] Oh my god. People, you people, you you know, people. Anyway, I'm just telling you, if you're gonna get a non-alcoholic drink, you're you're you're you should have at least no less than one to one on diet to regular soda. No less. And in fact, you should probably have for whatever your non-alcoholic basis, if you're gonna do soda, you should have two two-thirds diet and one third regular.
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+[31:11] That's in general, you know, whatever. Anyway, if I'm coming, just get seltzer. You need some non alcoholic stuff. I mean, beer is relatively low in alcohol, so you can pound that all day. But if you're sitting there pounding wine after wine after wine after wine after one, you need some non alcoholic product.
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+[31:24] I mean, as we all know, water is wretched. Uh just kidding. I just happen to not drink water. I drink I drink seltzer only. Okay, sorry, back to the question.
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+[31:32] Uh my wife likes to drink diet soda and I cringe when she does. Is that rational or just paranoid? What re what research uh and studies have been done around the safety of sugar substitutes, which are safe and which are not? What is the process of their production? Lastly, I've heard about isomalt and manitol, sugars that are used for culinary purposes and not for diet sodas necessarily.
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+[31:51] What is the deal with those in terms of safety? And aside aside from that, uh what is their culinary value in the kitchen? Finally, I was in New York briefly and went down to uh the bar, that's Booker and Dax, our bar. The drinks are awesome, but there were no pretzels. Please put some on the menu.
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+[32:05] Maybe we should have some pretzels on the menu. Yeah. Martin Brothers? Sounds good. Martin Martin pretzels, because they're the best.
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+[32:10] Uh thanks so much for keeping the airwaves delicious. Brian in San Francisco. Okay. First of all, isomalt and manitol are used uh because uh well isomalt is used uh a lot in confectionary with uh kind of higher end uh what's it like technological cooking because it doesn't absorb moisture as much, doesn't turn as brown as much uh when you're cooking it into a caramel, it's nice and hard. So you use it a lot in um in blown sugar work or in confectioner, or if you look at like what Ferran and those guys do making those and Jose Andres and making those uh those like isomalt packages with the with the uh olive oil in them.
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+[32:47] So they're they're they're great for that. And they're slightly less uh there's less sweet than sugar. So they have a lot of the structural properties of sugar without uh all the sweetness. Manitole is a little you know a little bit different. I don't really use that one in the kitchen.
+
+[32:59] Um but let's go back to what I think is the important part of the question here is is are uh what what what are called non nutritive sweeteners, are they dangerous or not? And uh the the short answer is is all the research points to them not being dangerous. Every actual bit of current scientific research points to non nutritive sweeteners being absolutely uh fine from a uh health perspective. Now, um, you know, uh, and you know, you can look at, and I I can't even believe that I'm uh quoting these guys because I don't, you know, it's not my normal thing. And and again, I'm not usually a health guy, I'm not the guy to ask health questions of.
+
+[33:37] But if you read the the recent paper, for instance, in 2012, the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which, you know, again, for any of you who've ever listened to me uh go on a rant and rave about this, you know that uh I have uh big problems with the entire um uh n nutritionist kind of um outlook on things because it keeps changing. All all the data, all the ideas, like what's good, what's bad, keep changing every every year, what changes. Salt's good, salt's bad, this is good, this is bad. So I tend to I tend to regard every every piece of information as horse hockey uh except for the one that I always go back to, which is eat uh eat a moderate amount of a wide variety of things. I mean, I'm overweight right now, and it's because I eat too much freaking food.
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+[34:18] It's because I eat an absurd amount of freaking food. My total caloric consumption is way higher than it should be. And that's that's the God's truth. It doesn't matter which kind of calorie I'm consuming, I'm consuming too much of it. Okay, that said.
+
+[34:30] Uh the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics uh does and you should look at this. Cindy uh Fitch uh PhD and Catherine Kime PhD were the uh the main authors on it, and it's they do an exhaustive review of all of the studies. Uh aspartame, which is nutrition. Uh a lot of people used to worry about aspartame because it has the warning on it, phenol ketinor uh about phenyl ketinuria, which is a basically it's a genetic disorder. If you have it, you know you have it.
+
+[34:57] You were tested at birth. And yes, uh, you know, your brain can be damaged because you don't um you don't metabolize uh phenolalanine, which is an amino acid also present in proteins, uh, you don't metabolize it properly. And when nutrition is broken down in the body, it creates an excess of phenylalanine in the system, and so you should be aware of it. For all the rest of us, uh that's fine. Uh and uh there've never been uh any study, uh or there's no current study anyway that shows that there's been any sort of um problem with it.
+
+[35:28] Uh and the average consumption, even for people who pound diet soda all day, according to this article, is uh below um your your, you know, your recommended maximum uh daily intake that have any issues. Saccharin uh was uh banned because there was uh some uh bladder cancer studies in rats in I think the 70s, late 70s or 80s. And the uh the the problem was is that uh they were feeding these rats an absurd amount of uh saccharin, and it turns out that uh that all of the actual studies done uh and this is the major studies done um with people uh over time measuring their incidence of uh bladder cancer or other cancers with sacchar intake have shown that uh in fact it's not uh in fact it's not true. Uh and and um and uh basically the government uh realizes this, but they're not going back like anyway. The the point is that there's no current studies that anyone can uh point to.
+
+[36:19] Uh there's no studies that haven't been debunked that show that saccharin causes uh any any sort of uh problem. Uh sucralose um uh sucralose again, uh in other words, like all of the ones that are being used, even cyclomates, which were the first one to be banned because of cancer studies. Current research seems to show that cyclates uh don't actually cause uh any any sort of cancer. Sucralose, I'll just give you a gross fact about it. You don't break it down so you pee and poop it out.
+
+[36:44] So theoretically, if you eat a lot of sucrose, your pee and poop will be sweet if you were to try it. Uh I I wouldn't go ahead and try it, but I'm just saying uh like that's that's uh the case. Um so the long story short, uh every single piece of evidence I was able to find that was not put out by a crank or a quack goes to show that uh non-nutrient sweeteners are uh fine to use. Uh whether you think that they're gross from a mental perspective and therefore should not be used because they're an abomination, because what you should do is uh eat products that are made with care and that taste good and that non-nutrient sweeteners taste bad and not like real sugar and therefore uh are an abomination, I think that's a valid point. Uh you know, uh also uh another I tried to look at a bunch of studies that uh looked into whether or not um there the you know one of the arguments back in the day was that if you ate uh sugar substitutes, your body would have an increased uh desire for other foods, and therefore you would actually eat more because you weren't getting the sugar from the taste of sweet and they would increase your consumption of other solids and then you wouldn't regulate properly.
+
+[37:50] Apparently, all that's horse hockey too. I don't found any current studies that show that that's the case. Uh and then after I researched this, I looked at another uh interesting uh article. Uh did you know that with uh and because this comes goes back to uh what happened what was it last week, Jack, with the question on Bloomberg sugar ban? Last week?
+
+[38:10] Yeah. Uh did you know that over the past uh three years the consumption of sugar per capita in the United States has gone down? Really? Yeah, it's gone down. You know why?
+
+[38:21] Because we're drinking less freaking soda because it's gotten such bad press. So everyone is talking about, everyone's talking about all of these uh these problems. But if you actually look at the data, right, the actual current data, the data since people have been starting to scream about uh sugar being the the the evil that that you know that and in fact, like there's a the the the the the studies show that our sugar content like since that time in the past four, five, six years, has started to go down. And at the very most conservative estimates that it's leveled off. Our general caloric intake way freaking high, right?
+
+[38:57] Our general caloric intake has gone up, but uh our sugar consumption has gone down or at least stabilized. And some of these numbers I I you know I only had a couple of hours to research it so it's hard for me to make any actual pronouncements but if you go and look online, like one of the one of the articles to look at uh is called uh where is it uh Consumption of added sugars is decreasing in the United States by J.A. Welsh and AJ Sharma. Uh and they're using their data comes from the nutrition and health science uh sorry their uh data comes from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. Uh so go look at that and uh you know it's just it just goes to show that these problems are much more complicated than banning sugar or or b or trying to ban sodas to to try and get rid of uh sugar consumption that sugar is uh not some sort of horrible uh poison uh you know one of the big um one of the big people out there who's anti-sugar is a doctor in California named Robert uh Lustig and he's been writing a lot of articles getting a lot of play uh and I I don't have the the time I haven't had the time to to look at his uh articles thoroughly enough to debunk what he writes in them but he writes articles with titles like fructose metabolic hedonic and societal parallels with ethanol, because basically the man thinks that sugar is a poison and a drug with uh, you know, so did KRS one, by the way, uh uh with kind of parallels to ethanol and is on an anti-sugar cake.
+
+[40:27] Interestingly, you know, this same group of doctors actually goes to show how our dietary information was so bad in the in the 70s and 80s, decrying uh fat as the enemy, and that those low fat diets actually uh caused a lot of problems, uh including obesity and and whatnot, and then fail to recognize that their own insistence on sugar as being the ultimate enemy in all of these things is similarly just rotten data from a particular uh slice in time that I'm sure uh later on uh is gonna be shown that well, they were wrong for a different reason. I think again it goes back to uh and you know, I need to spend more time going to the ins and outs of uh all of the research that they cite, but um it goes back to the point that what you really want to do is eat a uh wide variety of uh foods in moderation. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[41:23] Oh, another thing. Tomorrow at Roberta's Pizzeria on the fourth of July, uh Kobayashi is going to be doing a hot dog eating contest sponsored, I guess by Roberta and Crift Dogs. Yeah, and I'm gonna be interviewing him. Yeah? Yeah, I mean, if all goes well.
+
+[41:37] What do you mean if all goes well? What can not go well? The man knows how to eat a hot dog. Who knows? He may just have his hands full, but they said if they can wrangle him in here for a minute, you know, I'm gonna keep the AC on.
+
+[41:46] I'll have some cold drinks, you know. The man's not gonna freaking drink anything before the cut. That's a good point. Uh but I don't think he speaks English, so it should be a fun interview. That's the best.
+
+[41:54] Do you have a translator? I think so. I hope so. Well, listen, is there any if do you you don't know if you have a translator? Hey, is there well, should I put a call out for anyone that speaks Japanese who wants to come translate for me?
+
+[42:05] I mean, he will. It's just that they said it's gonna be crazy and they hope he can come in here, and at the very least, they're promising a drop. So we'll get Kobayashi trying to say, you know, heritage radio network.org. That's gonna be awesome. It will be pretty awesome.
+
+[42:17] The man single-handedly kind of made like competitive eating like kind of a thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know the whole story about him, right? Like he was banned from the contest because he wouldn't sign with the major league eating union or whatever.
+
+[42:32] You know, they have like the organization of all the eaters they're represented for competitions, and he did not want to sign with them. He wanted his own representation, so he could not compete in the Nathan's hot dog eating contest because he was not in that union. So he showed up anyway with a shirt that said free Kobe, and he kind of crashed the stage, and then the police had to kick him out, and it was this whole thing. So that's why he'll be here. Kobe beef or Kobe Bryant?
+
+[42:54] No, free Kobayashi. Oh, Kobayashi. Right. You know, he just shortened it. So anyway, so he'll be here competing against the Nathan's hot dog eating people remotely via video.
+
+[43:04] I mean, didn't the guy invent the the Duncan smash? I think he did, yeah. Yeah. First of all, it's all kind of it's I mean, from an actual from my my perspective as a food person, I mean, the whole thing is kind of gross, like massive consumption. I'm I'm kind of fascinated by it, but it's also gross, right?
+
+[43:17] I mean, I think hot dogs are gross, period. Really? So yeah, I don't really like one. They taste good though. That's the problem with them.
+
+[43:22] They taste good. Also, did you know that if you make hot dogs, if you use the proper spices, no matter what meat you make it out of, you know what it tastes like? No. Hot dog. I've made one out of like all out of duck, all hand done, emulsify, blah, blah, blah, uh, you know, all this thing, trammed everything.
+
+[43:35] Tastes like a hot dog. What's hot dog spice? What is that? I forget what the mix is, but I like anyway, but but that's not my point. Here's what I'm gonna talk about with the with the with the with the eating, right?
+
+[43:45] Back to uh another one of my non-scientific just you know, diet trap. But this is my soapbox, so I get to say what I want. Uh calorie is in fact uh not uh a calorie because your body is not uh a hundred percent uh efficient, right? So if Kobayashi, who I believe his current record for this hot dog, I don't know how many minutes it is or whatever, but it's 69 hot dogs, right? That's his current record for whatever the the official professional hot dog eating round is is 69 hot dogs, which is a absurd.
+
+[44:11] But uh that's 270 calories a pop according to the internet's 69 hot dogs is uh 18,630 calories in what is it, two minutes, Jack? I don't know. I can look it up. Yeah, something like that. Uh okay.
+
+[44:24] So uh if you believe that a calorie is a calorie, right, and that they all add up, that would mean that uh he would gain from that alone in terms of actual body fat five point uh three pounds, right? You that doesn't happen though. You well, you know what gains five point three pounds? His toilet gains five point three pounds because your body simply cannot process all of that all of that food in one schlag. It just can't it can't be none.
+
+[44:48] Similarly, if you were to drink a gallon of oil, do you think that you would gain uh eight point nine pounds, which is the actual at thirty five hundred uh calories per pound is the number that's bandied about. Do you think you would gain eight point nine pounds, or do you think you would just run to the toilet and poop it all out? What do you think, Aaron? I I I hope he pulls the trigger after the contest. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[45:10] But I imagine it goes right through your system. Right. One in in maybe even out the same way it came in. Wow, you think you think you throw it up? You know, that's true.
+
+[45:18] I've never seen someone do the gallon of milk contest uh thing without without throwing it up. I we had a with a competitive eater on one of the shows, uh Tim Jan is oh, I forget what his name was, but he called it a reversal of fortune. And he said if anybody says the word vomit or puke in front of a competitive eater, it's like get out of the room. You're you can't do that. You can't even say the word.
+
+[45:36] You mean like when they're just sitting talking? Yeah, or like getting ready for a competition more, you know. But like after the comp like. Or especially after the comp, yeah, you know. But what I'm saying is like like, you know, in general casual conversation, are you allowed to say puke?
+
+[45:44] Uh that's a good question. What about boot? Also a good we should get we should get him back and on the show. Yeah, let's do it. Let's let's try to do that.
+
+[45:57] All right, so uh all right, so uh I think we answered most of the question. Do you have any closing uh comments here, uh Aaron, other than go to Kickstarter and go to deconstructing dinner and give some freaking money? Yeah, check check out deconstructing dinner.com. Uh we we we really need the help of of all all the listeners and and anyone who's uh and and like us on Facebook too, uh, from the site. Send it to all your friends.
+
+[46:17] Anyone who's passionate about food, I think will will really like this project. All right. Well, thank you for uh being our guest producer today. Thanks to everyone. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[46:32] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our programs archived on our website or by searching iTunes for Heritage Radio Network. You can find us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[46:57] To donate and become a member, visit our website. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:21] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting out of the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined uh as usual with uh Nustacha Hammer Lopez. How you doing?
+
+[0:50] Good, how are you? And the whole crew in the in the engineering rooms give a shout out. Yeah, we're here. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[0:55] You were right on time today. I know it. You know an up at twelve. Maybe I'm just getting faster on the bike. It's awesome.
+
+[1:01] Yeah? Maybe I'm just I I'm I feel like I'm getting less in shape, so I doubt that's the case. Maybe I actually left on time today. It's possible. Nah, I doubt it.
+
+[1:09] Probably not. Uh so anyway, uh the cooking issues crew, uh Nastasha and I, along with uh Tristan Willie from our Bar Booker and Dax were on the Jimmy Fallon show yesterday. Uh for the second time, right? Yeah, second time. It was a lot of fun.
+
+[1:23] They put a picture of my kids, Booker and Dax, up with the uh with their bartender's mustaches on, thanks to Nastasha who emailed them the picture. But uh they were a great crew, right? They were a great crew. They were. I made a uh chocolate drink for uh Quest Love as well, which was a lot of fun.
+
+[1:38] Anyway. Uh enough about us. Okay. Uh William writes in, I hate peeding potato uh potatoes. Uh I actually like peeling potatoes.
+
+[1:47] It's weird. It's like you know how like in every book about like a f like a famous chef novel. Well, no, it's like for instance, okay, so like you ever read uh Ruleman's book, Soul of a Chef? No. Right?
+
+[1:57] No? I have it. Anyway, you have it you just haven't read it? It's not that long. I mean you could read it.
+
+[2:01] I'm not interested. I don't want to understand the soul of a chef. Oh, because I was like, oh, okay, Mark, I'll get a soul of a chef. And then I was like, nah. So it was enough like What?
+
+[2:11] I I wanted to try to understand and commiserate with the chef. Having being dating a chef. I just haven't gotten around to reading it. No, it's a choose not to read it. You choose not to read it.
+
+[2:26] What's that about? Nothing, I'm joking. What is that? Some people will know. Did you really read it?
+
+[2:30] No. What is that? What is fifty shades? What the hell am I behind everything? What the hell?
+
+[2:34] I'm like eighty years old. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I I don't know what any of the people are reading these days. I know nothing except about food technology these days, I guess.
+
+[2:41] I guess pathetic. Anyways, uh so you bought it was enough to buy it to be like, hey Mark, look, I own this book. Aren't I nice? Yeah. But I but I don't want to read, I'm not interested.
+
+[2:51] Nah. Anyways. Uh so in that book, like they make a lot of hey over Thomas Keller liking to w wash dishes, as though it shows a sign that he's interested in all aspects of what goes on in the restaurant and the search for perfection, not just uh, you know, the the finished cooking preparation, but everything from cooking dishes and scrubbing pots and all the way up. Really, I think he's just a psycho and likes to likes to scrub pots. It's like I I like I like juicing li limes and lemons, and I don't mind peeling potatoes.
+
+[3:17] Do you know what I mean? It's just it's like a zen thing for me. It's not like because I care about the little things, which is also true. It's just I don't mind doing that freaking job. Mm-hmm.
+
+[3:25] Cooks are weird. Anyway. Um back to the question. Uh I hate peeling potatoes. Is there an alternative shortcut to peeling potatoes other than uh the blanch for fifteen minutes, dunk in ice water and rub the skin off?
+
+[3:37] I tried this technique with large russets, but it was quite messy and a pain in the pitukas, uh and feel that using a peeler would have been easier. Uh thanks, William. Uh well, William, you know, uh I've never actually uh used that technique for peeling potatoes. I peel all my potatoes with a uh Y-peeler. Um I mean I just I mean I can rip through uh I can rip through I've only really ever had to do like twenty pounds at a time, though.
+
+[4:02] So I don't know if you're doing like a whole bunch. I would bet anything under 10 pounds or even fifteen pounds, you're gonna be much faster, I think, just busting out with uh a Y peeler. The only advantage I think of the blanch is if you're not gonna soak them in water uh right away after you peel them. I peel them and directly throw them into uh water. Uh the blanching will probably kill the enzymes right at the surface of the potato and uh therefore um stop the potato from discoloring.
+
+[4:30] So if you weren't gonna throw it into water right away after you peel it, um then maybe that blanch would would help you on that. But I I would just use a Y-peeler. If you're doing more than like 20, 30 pounds of these at a time, uh and you have space in your kitchen, they do sell um for not that much money. Uh Nils used to use them in Sweden actually, because the restaurants he used to work with in Sweden, it's like basically all they served were potatoes and herring and salmon. That was it.
+
+[4:55] Potato staring. I'm just kidding, but that's not really though. Uh and so they had these uh abrasive peelers, and the way an abrasive peeler works, it's a drum uh and it's got sandpaper on the inside uh on the bottom of of the drum in a wavy shape, and the drum spins and you pour water into it, and the potatoes literally tumble around and uh and produce like a potato peel sludge, and the longer you run it, the more crap that you uh get off of it. And that's how um like large larger restaurants that do a lot of potatoes sometimes get those, uh I think they're more common in Europe. And that's how um potatoes are peeled in um big uh potato factories abrasively.
+
+[5:33] And and then they'll also a lot of times use a high uh uh a high pressure water jet to spray on the potatoes as well because that'll blast out any of the dark areas that are uh on a potato. See here's the other thing, right? If you're gonna blanch and then rub the rub this stuff off, you're still gonna need some sort of a knife or a peeler to get rid of all the black spots that are on the insides uh of the potatoes. And you know, that's why this is another thing. People who don't peel their potatoes beforehand, I mean, the problem with not peeling your potatoes beforehand is that there are plenty of potatoes that look sound after you wash them.
+
+[6:05] You know, you scrub them and you wash them. Uh but um after you peel them, you notice the black spot underneath. So if you're not peeling your potatoes before you know you make french fries and stuff, and then you have to pick through all the french fries and worry about all the black spots, right? No? Anyway, uh my my two cents.
+
+[6:21] But sorry I couldn't I didn't really help there. I think a lot of it, a lot of times when people are uh their peelings uh not as fast as they otherwise could be using a regular peeler, it's just because they're using a traditional straight peeler instead of uh the Y-shaped peeler. In fact, the the the my favorite, you know, is and I you know I I feel like I'm shilling for these guys because I also talk about their pressure cooker. I've never received a single thing from the Coon Recon Corporation, but they're relatively inexpensive uh and colorful Y peelers uh work great. They cost like four bucks, and they're so much faster than the metal, kind of more professional style Y peelers whose blade geometry I don't think is correct, or uh any of the other expensive ones, the cheap plastic one.
+
+[7:04] And they come in a bunch of different colors, which is nice because you'd be like, yo, mine's the green one. It's the green one. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[7:11] Uh I'd stay away from the serrated edge uh peelers. They're theoretically for soft, peeling soft uh for uh things where um I don't know, but I've never had any damn luck with them. Nastasha likes them for some reason. She likes the way they look. You like the serrated peeler look.
+
+[7:26] I do. But not in there's no sort of functionality that you care about, right? No. No. Hold on.
+
+[7:33] Got a tweet in about the Fallon show. Oh, yeah, what'd they say? Most amazing thing about the Fallon appearance is cooking issues didn't drop the F-bomb once. Oh, someone must know me. Someone someone tweeted in.
+
+[7:44] What's his name, did? Who? Uh Joseph Gordon Levitt. He he dropped the F-bomb? Yes.
+
+[7:50] I couldn't watch. I was working. There was nothing to do. Like nothing for you to do. You're sitting around in the in the fish room.
+
+[7:57] I'll talk to you after. Nothing to do. Tristan and I were sitting there prepping this stuff out during the during the. Well, I said I'll talk to you after. Yeah, and you wouldn't know because where were you not?
+
+[8:10] With me working with Tristan. Okay, we'll talk about it after. Yeah, right. So it makes heritage radio better than Fallon. We'll let you drop F-bombs.
+
+[8:18] I know, but I actually I don't. I know, we appreciate that. Well, that's where you had that. We had that write-in once, and they said their kids listen. Yeah.
+
+[8:25] By the way, that's classic Nastasha, for those of you that don't uh know her, is to talk about something. She was not even with me during the the entire thing. She was working on email on the computer in the in they have these weird little rooms, and they all have weird names. We were in the fish room, right? And it had like all sorts of weird cereal boxes uh on the sidewall.
+
+[8:45] But that's where that's where Nastasha was chilling most of the time. Right? Right. Right. Uh okay.
+
+[8:53] Um, and also from William. I've been catching up on older podcasts. Uh, and in one you mentioned about not having the resources to buy certain things to test out for the listeners. Why not putting up a donation link on the site? I'm sure many of us are happy to donate.
+
+[9:05] After all, you're giving us a wealth of uh info. William McGee. That's a good idea. It is. Right?
+
+[9:09] Yeah. Nastash, look into that. Listeners can donate to Heritage Radio on our homepage. Yeah. But will that will that buy us cooking equipment to test out for our readers?
+
+[9:18] Um. Check with Aaron on that. That's funny. Okay. Uh Joe writes in Amazon.com is advertising Mirval's modernist Well, Miravold et al.
+
+[9:30] Mirvold et al. Uh Modernist Cuisine at home to be released on October 8th. So what's the story? Is this just an edited version of the original or will there be new content? Can those of us that have the original safely give this a pass?
+
+[9:43] Thanks, Joe. Listen, uh, I've got to be honest, uh I didn't have time to get in touch with um any of those guys. So I don't know. I haven't read uh any of the pre-press on that. Like, you know, uh our heads have pretty much been in a hole because we got a lot of projects we're working on, so the outside world hasn't really been penetrating much.
+
+[10:01] Um I don't know that they've I think it's probably a redux of stuff that's in the larger book. Uh might have been represented somewhat uh or changed, but I don't think those guys have had the time to to do anything. Let me put it this way. Uh if that crew is going to do uh a totally fresh thing, they're gonna put as much energy into it as they put into anything else they do, and I don't think they've had the time to do that. So it's probably going to be pulled uh from the other one.
+
+[10:31] But I'm gonna, you know, if anyone else knows or wants to write in, uh I'm I'm anxious to hear because I don't know. Um passing along this question. Uh in my most recent article about the benefits of anesthetizing fish, lobsters, and crabs for enhanced flavors, I was wondering if uh if I've ever tried doing the same with bivalves, and if so, whether it's made any difference in the flavor. Thanks, Craig. Uh okay, so we're talking about the uh recent uh two weeks old now, uh cooking issues post on um using anesthesia, specifically clove oil on lobsters and crabs.
+
+[11:08] Um and the the theory is is that if you anestheti them before you kill them, uh they taste better, which is true. We've done that test many, many times. Uh and they they taste cleaner, sweeter, they're awesome. And plus, if you should feel bad about throwing uh a live crustacean into a pot of uh boiling water, this will uh allay uh your nervousness somewhat because uh they don't they don't twitch, they don't move at all, they don't they they just sink to the bottom of the pot and there's no sort of reaction from them at all. Uh so anyway, so I wrote about the technique of how to do that using clove oil that you get at um at Whole Foods.
+
+[11:44] Um anyway, so uh plus you know, or the benefits of just shoving a knife uh through them and taking out all of their ganglion and then and then and then boiling them. Problem with that being that you lose some of the juices on the inside of the lobster and so you uh lose some of its taste. Anyway, question is can you do that on bivalves? I don't know. Uh I've never I've never tried to anesthetize a bivalve.
+
+[12:05] Bivalve meaning uh I would guess specifically clams and uh and mussels or you know, perhaps something like a whelk or uh or something else. Like, oh that's not a bivalve, that's a univalve, right? Uh anyway, um the um so if we're talking about mussels and clams uh and and oysters. Um here's the problem. Clove oil water that you anesthetize things uh in has uh an aroma of clothes.
+
+[12:32] Uh and this is why when you're using clove oil, you have to be especially careful to not get it on your hands because it becomes impossible to find out whether anything's then contaminated because whenever you bring your hands to your nose to see what's going on, you smell clothes. Uh when you're dealing with lobsters that are then going to get boiled, or you're dealing with fish that are gonna get uh you know sc scrubbed and gutted, you don't the clove oil flavor doesn't come through because it's been diluted twice, right? But like it's not really enough of it is not on the fish or the lobster uh or in the thing so that you can detect it. But in a uh bivalve where you have the act where it like part of its juices are the fluids in which it is sitting, then uh I'm pretty sure you're gonna detect the uh the aroma of clove. And so I don't think you'd be able to do a valid taste test between uh anesthetizing a lobster, I mean a um uh uh uh an oyster versus not.
+
+[13:26] Um it's an interesting question though. I've tried using uh gases to gas them open uh without much luck. You know, Mirvold and Chris Young and those guys use a a quick freeze with liquid nitrogen to uh shuck their uh oysters uh quickly to you know kill them, kill them quickly. Uh I don't know how fast high hydrostatic pressure is, which is also used on oysters. I've never actually tasted one of those oysters.
+
+[13:52] It's uh killed and pasteurized with high hydrostatic pressure. Uh so I don't can't tell you whether they taste good or they taste bad. But there's a lot of other effects other than not cutting open a living creature in in that in that scenario. What I have done with uh and it's totally separate, it has nothing to do with anesthesia, is uh I've put oysters, this is years and years and years ago, I would make flavored seawater uh using uh we would use for clams we once used uh chicken stock with bacon in it uh for oysters we used to use carrot juice and uh cardamom and we would I would add uh aquarium salt back to it to get it to be just like the ocean and then I would have the uh oysters and or clams uh drink the fluid right they would basically I would put them in this I would aerate it I would you know keep it at the at the temperature that the clams and the oysters would want to feed at they would feed and then when you shucked the oyster it would be bright orange like so you'd have an oyster there in the shell you'd shuck it and it would be bright orange and it would taste like carrots and cardamom and that that was a nifty trick. I haven't done that in a long time.
+
+[14:54] I've ever done that for you nostashers that before that was before you were working with us but uh and it's been a a long long time since I've done it but it's a fun it's a fun little trick. Uh anyway so that's for whatever it's worth there Craig. Anyway you want to take a break? Sure. Let's take a break come back to cooking issues If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom.
+
+[16:24] That's why the French Culinary Institute has evolved into the International Culinary Center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills. You come to understand and to feel the whole culinary world. You have to network. You have to observe the true meaning of world-class performance.
+
+[16:40] You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the International Culinary Center's campuses in New York, California, and Italy, we will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at a very high speed. The International Culinary Center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian wine management, culinary technology, and food writing. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. The International Culinary Center.
+
+[17:11] Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, uh back at cooking issues. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[17:18] That's 718497-2128. This one into uh Nastasha, myself. Well, real quick, Andy Melka says, why the Y-peeler? Feel like I'm gonna peel my hand somehow. Love traditional straight peeler.
+
+[17:30] Well, I don't recommend peeling your hand. That would be a mistake. It's all about hey, look, here's the thing, right? Watch someone who's adept at a Y-peeler. It's a different kind of uh a skill, right?
+
+[17:42] From using it. So, uh but I I know what you're for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, this peeler looks like a Y. That's why they call it a Y-peeler. Duh. And uh if you're not used to using it, you what you feel like you're gonna get is like let's say you're holding a potato, you're holding a potato in the palm of your hand, and your thumb and your index are like on it, right?
+
+[17:59] And you're peeling down, and then you're using your thumb and index to rotate the potato as the as the Y-peeler is going slap slap slap slap shap. And you do, if you're not used to it, get the feeling that you're gonna nick your thumb somehow. But uh I haven't. Do you know what I mean? It's just like I guess getting getting used to it.
+
+[18:16] But it's it's just I mean, look at anyone who's really good with a Y-peeler, and they're just much, much faster with it. Uh I guess just because of the the stroke. Now, um what you don't get is that same feeling. So with a regular straight peeler, you're keeping the straight peeler kind of in between the your four fingers in kind of like uh in a I don't know, what would you call that kind of a palm I'm making? Uh like the like kung fu iron fist, yeah.
+
+[18:43] No, black power's a fist. Yeah. Yeah. What the hell? Uh but like uh like kind of like a kung fu like like s like palm slap thing, and you're using your thumb and you can pull the the straight peeler towards you with a curl of your of your wrist, it's kind of like a snapping motion, but still not as fast as uh as a really uh adept person with a Y-peeler.
+
+[19:03] Another thing, and I gotta call it one second. Uh in a but with a with a Y-peeler, like let's say you're doing carrots, you put the carrot flat on a uh baking sheet, and then you just you just the the Y-peeler is like slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, stop, stop stop stop as you're rotating the carrot underneath you, and the peels just go flying everywhere. It's it's amazing. Try the why. Anyway, Kohler, you're on the air.
+
+[19:23] Hi, how are you? Doing well. How are you? Good. Your show's great so far.
+
+[19:28] I'm really enjoying it. Oh, thanks. Um, I have a really silly question. Now, I always try to like whip my own whipped cream, and I don't know if it's because I'm buying ultra pasteurized or I'm not whipping it at the right speed, but it's literally about two steps away from becoming butter. Maybe you know what I'm doing wrong.
+
+[19:46] Yeah, I think you're probably just whipping too long. So usually when you're when you're whipping your own um cream, right, uh you uh it's not gonna be as hard or as stiff as the stuff that you know that is commercial out of a out of a can, or you know what I mean? Uh those guys. Yeah, because those guys add a lot of uh stabilizer. So I would start with like a really cold cream, get the highest fat content cream you can get.
+
+[20:13] I've never done a lot of tests on ultra pasteurized versus not, but I can tell you that uh at the school they they use uh a non-ultra pasteurized, a regular pasteurized cream, which is hard to get in supermarket. And it just it's totally it tastes better. I I mean it tastes better. And the cream we get is also a very high fat content cream, so it all it also whips up um quite nicely. If um I mean if you want to cheat and you want it a little bit stiff uh stiffer, you could add uh stabilizers.
+
+[20:41] I mean, and then and if you look at the label on uh on whipped cream, especially the ones that are trying to reduce the fat content, they use light cream, and they stabilize the hell out of those things. Oh, okay. Yeah, and that'll get it a little bit better. If you whip it even a little bit too much, what happens is is um so cream is a uh is an oil in water emulsion. The continuous phase is uh it's water.
+
+[21:05] And then uh if you over whip it, right, and then when you whip it, the f the fat uh is you know basically you're forming um like a foam and the and the fat's at the at the layer. Uh with air. If you over whip it, the fat starts to kind of um agglomerate together and the emulsion starts to uh invert. And if you go too long, obviously you get butter, but the first thing you get is the is that kind of grainy feel and starts watering down a little bit, the texture loses, and you start getting a buttery taste to the whipped cream, which is not what you want. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:36] I I tried to make a peanut butter pie, so I was like, oh, this should be super duper easy. I'll just do it this way. And it still came out like really good, but it was like super thick and like not that aerated, and I'm like, ah crap, what do I keep doing wrong? So Right. You could fortify like so you look at traditional mousse recipes and they got whipp their whipped cream and they're fortified with uh like a a gelatin mix afterwards, they're folded together.
+
+[21:56] And that'll keep something like that pretty stiff. Um you know, another uh uh let's see, over whipping, what else could be. I mean that that's that's the that's the main thing, and you know, obviously something that people I mean, I'm sure you know this already, but just to tell people when you're whipping cream, don't forget to add salt to it because it really pops the flavor. Yeah. A little bit, not a lot.
+
+[22:14] You don't want it salty, but it just really rounds out the the flavor, makes it makes it a lot better. Oh wow, I never knew that. Well, thanks so much for your help. Hey, no problem. Hope it helps.
+
+[22:23] Yeah, thank you. Have a good one. You too. Um was I what was I took I was like ranting about something before potato. Oh, the wide peeler.
+
+[22:32] Anyway, yeah, I hit that. Okay, so by the way, Jack, this one's for you and for anyone out there listening wants to download the podcast. Uh-huh. Uh this is to everyone, including Indy Jesus. This is from Kevin, but remember Indy Jesus is no longer with us.
+
+[22:42] He doesn't work our shift anymore. Mainly. But he will rise again. Jesus is all you guys, and you're gonna get me in some big trouble. Oh man.
+
+[22:50] No, it's Indie Jesus hates Nastasha. That's the problem. Yeah, that I mean that that's my best guess. Yeah, yeah. Anyway.
+
+[22:56] Uh first off, it's from Kevin. First off, enjoy the show and want to share a tip for anyone who is on the Android and doesn't have an iPhone. You can download uh Heritage Radio's RSS feed for the show into the Google Listen app and it will automatically download and sync all the episodes over the air. That's right. I did not know that.
+
+[23:13] They're just MP3s. Yeah, I did I did not know this. Uh it used to be a huge pain to download the episodes one by one and copy them over USB, so I hope this helps some folks. Uh number two, uh, this is from Kevin Still. I have the opportunity to give talks on food science for Australia's National Science Week in Melbourne in August.
+
+[23:29] Although they pronounce it like Melbourne, right? Or know how do they pronounce it? Don't know. It's I can't do it. I can't do the Australian version of Melbourne the way they pronounce it.
+
+[23:36] So I'm gonna say it like an American Melbourne. Anyway, uh I'd like to tailor the message to the ingredients and cooking equipment available uh down there, i.e. in Melbourne. Uh do you have any experience working in Australia? And would you mind plugging my request to your Australian listeners?
+
+[23:51] The best contact would be Kevin at ScienceFair.org. Uh fair as in food. F-A-R-E. Keep up the inspirational work. Kevin, I do not have any uh experience in Australia.
+
+[24:01] I've never been to Australia. If there's anyone out there that wants to fly cooking issues down to Australia for any reason, we'll do it, right? Right. Uh but uh I'm sure, you know, if anyone from the Breville Corporation is listening, they can hook you up with some equipment, right? I mean, like a Breville like owns uh like like Australia's cooking implement universe, don't they?
+
+[24:20] Breville. They also they love Mama Fuku. They love like you know, our partners Dave Chang, they love uh Christina Tozi. Christina Tozi's, I think her her shop is basically constructed out of brevel brevel pieces of equipment instead of bricks because they have uh so much brevel equipment. True or false?
+
+[24:37] Yes. Not I mean, not honestly. I mean, it's like, you know, it's an example. I'm exaggerating. Anyway, uh Dave, Nastasha, and Jack.
+
+[24:43] By the way, it it's it's I always pronounce pronounce your name properly because I always mispronounce it. Nastasia. Yeah, I say Nastasha. One syllable less. Yeah, it's one syllable less because I'm a lazy, lazy son of a bitch.
+
+[24:56] Alright. Tom Fisher writes in Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. Hope you had a great 4th of July. I've run into a snag. I've been making clarified fruit juices using your instructions for some time and recently started using them to make flavored ice cream.
+
+[25:12] The juices were not strong enough on their own, so I froze them and re-melted them, drawing off the concentrated juice. This worked well, but I got very inconsistent results as I have no way to determine the concentration of the juice. I remember you were mentioning a bricks refractometer to measure the concentration of sugar in solution. Will this work for my application as well? Many thanks, Tom Fisher.
+
+[25:30] Hell yes. Yes. That's the easiest question I've ever had to answer. Yes. Now, uh here's what you gotta do.
+
+[25:37] You gotta figure out uh so you want the sugar content of the uh ice cream probably to be on the same order of concentration as a uh sorbet. And I can't remember off the top of my head what a proper bricks concentration for a sorbet is, but it's on the order of uh I think 20, 20% sugar or something like that, like like 17, 20, something I can't remember. Uh so what you're gonna want to do is uh figure out what percentage of your recipe is uh is is juice, right? And then it figure out any other added sugar that you're going to add to it, and then you can calculate on a weight basis of your ice cream mix what the bricks because all bricks means is is percentage by weight uh that of a solution that is sugar. Okay?
+
+[26:21] So uh, you know, let's say your your mixture was going to be one quarter fruit juice, uh, and it was going to be the only sugar that's in the in the recipe. Well, then you'd need a very high bricks, right? Because if you were looking for 20% uh of the thing to be uh sugar and you wanted to add you know only a quarter of it being juice, almost all of it would have to be sugar. So but that said, you it's all doable, right? But what you need is uh uh you need a a bricks refractometer.
+
+[26:50] Um most of the ones that people buy uh are zero to thirty-two bricks, so they can only do from zero, well, zero to thirty-two percent sugar in a solution. And that's fine for fruit juice and fine for survey, but not fine if you're gonna need to use something as concentrated as a simple syrup, let's say, typical simple syrup, somewhere between 50 bricks, normal, or which simple syrup is gonna be at like 66 bricks. So um I use I use an elect an electronic one that's uh you know a lot more expensive because I need to be very, very quick for the bar. But you can get a bricks refractometer that's zero to eighty-five percent bricks, which will take care of a lot of what you're gonna do. Uh for about uh 40, 50 dollars.
+
+[27:29] If you want, you can buy two of the cheaper ones, one for the higher range and one for the lower range. The disadvantage of getting a single bricks refractometer that's an extremely wide range, like zero to eighty-five, is it's just not very accurate because it's hard to look into the refractometer and read the scale. But uh, you know, the they're they're not complicated to use, they're easy to take care of. I've only ever had one person break one. Me.
+
+[27:54] Uh but uh but yeah, go ahead and get them. And I've that's another one of those things. Uh, you know, if you ever need one, the needs are gonna come up for it again and again. No one's ever said, Man, I wish I didn't have that refractometer. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:08] Okay. Uh okay. Uh have some uh Twitter questions then I'm gonna take care of real quick uh before we go to our other commercial break. At cooking issues, have you ever run tests on centrifuges to clarify high density items like bean puree? If so, would it be efficient?
+
+[28:25] Okay. Uh well, yeah, no. We've done a lot of work uh obviously with nut oils where we're trying to get the um not obviously, I mean only if you know me and have for years is it obvious, but we do a lot of work with uh nut oils, where uh we blend nuts, uh and we've done we've done a bunch, right? Walnuts, pistachios, uh hazelnuts, uh Brazil nuts, uh macadamia nuts, bunch of nuts, uh pecans, peanuts, uh which aren't nuts. And uh blend them and then uh spin them in a centrifuge to extract the oil.
+
+[28:58] And it's I wouldn't call it efficient, but it it is uh it is delicious. Um I have spun um tomato paste, and it's not efficient at all, but that tiny bit of uh of juice that you get at the top of the tomato paste after you spin it is delicious. You tasted that right, Saz? That was good. You would like that.
+
+[29:20] It's incredibly inefficient, though. Uh well, and here's for more inefficiency, uh uh Tony Caneliaro, our buddy uh at 69 Colbert Grow, who I'm gonna see uh this week, I guess he's gonna be in New York before Tails, although I don't know when. Uh he uh I'm weird tails of the cocktail, by the way, next week. I'm probably gonna have to do that show from New Orleans. I gotta find out when my plane lands.
+
+[29:40] Uh he literally sticks whole olives in a centrifuge. Talk about talk about paste and spins them and gets uh a ridiculously small amount of ridiculously delicious product. I've never done bean puree. Your success is gonna be based on two factors. One, how tightly bound is the water to the puree, and two, how much physical water is in the puree versus solids.
+
+[30:02] Because a centrifuge at 4,000 times the force of gravity is only going to have a certain amount of separating capability. So I guess the answer, and it's not very helpful, is it depends. Not very helpful, huh? No. You could also try to use something that breaks the puree down.
+
+[30:17] If the puree is basically based on pectin, you can use a uh uh an enzyme to break down the pectin and increase your yield. It'll be at the expense probably of the texture of the paste that's left over because you would want to be able to use both. Yeah? Okay. Uh at cooking issues, heritage radio, where to eat in Chicago.
+
+[30:34] Coming from Dublin, Ireland, first time in Chi Town. Where's interesting cheers? Well, unfortunately, I haven't been in a couple of years uh to Chicago, so I don't know uh what's hit and happened anymore. Um I mean, obviously for the kind of work uh that we do, you're gonna want to go to uh a linea, but you gotta book up uh kind of well in advance, right? Uh and uh I the problem is is that a lot of the places that I really want to go in Chicago I haven't gone yet.
+
+[31:01] Like I haven't gone to uh aviary, and I'm just not I'm not plugged in in Chicago anymore, unfortunately. Um it's been years, and I'm loath to recommend places that I haven't been yet. Right, Stas? Right. Is that fair?
+
+[31:15] Right. Fair? But I would like uh readers to uh or or answer back on the Twitter. Answer me back on the at at cooking issues uh on the Twitter uh and get some uh recommendations uh for eating in uh Chicago. Uh okay.
+
+[31:32] Uh hey, Jack, you want to take one more commercial break? Uh yeah, give me one second. Alright. 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[31:40] Cooking issues.org. And welcome back. By the way, crazy guitar, right? Oh yeah. That's Tim Power going crazy.
+
+[32:56] Man, he was a nutty guitarist. Any any comments about the music from listeners on your end? No, nobody'll nobody. Look, it's like it's like a freak show's college band from 1991. They're like, okay, we'll put up with it.
+
+[33:07] I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Maybe. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Um, although, again, like one of the best parts about being uh in the Fallon show is getting to listen to the uh roots play. Those guys are awesome.
+
+[33:18] Mm-hmm. Did you get to hang out with Quest Love at all? I mean, look, those guys are busy. I mean, the way the way it works is um, you know, we I wanted to I wanted to do something with him. It's it's gonna be up, I guess, on their blog on on Thursday.
+
+[33:29] Uh but he likes uh chocolate drinks, and this is his quote, not mine, so I don't want to hear anything. He also like he's accused of all by all of his buddies of liking his words not mine, bitch drinks. Uh and so, you know, he likes he liked uh last time chocolate flavors and he liked uh kind of drinks that tasted lighter. So I wanted to make a drink uh I want to make a drink for you know for him that it was also about the album that came out a year or two ago he did with Booker T called uh uh The Road from Memphis because obviously the bar's name is Booker and Dax, my son's Booker and you know Booker T and Quest Love and Chocolate and Beverage. So I made one and uh we did a little he did he and I did a little segment that's going to be on uh Fallon's uh blog uh or is it MBC's or Fallon's uh Fallon's blog uh sometime later this week so yeah I got to hang out a little bit nice I think he he liked the drink he drank the whole he drank it I met him at Milk Bar once he was buying a lot of cookies.
+
+[34:27] Really? Yeah. Yeah was he seemed he's a nice guy. Yeah really nice guy. Yeah.
+
+[34:31] Yeah. Impressive fro in the real life. Very more impressive even in real life than it is on the uh on the television. Uh anyway uh got a a question in really interesting one actually I'm just trying to find it on my uh on my machine here from Mike. Uh I've been reading a lot of Chinese cookbooks uh and uh which is a a good plan.
+
+[34:55] I wonder which Chinese cookbooks uh you like I I I've got to get the fuchsia Dunlop books. I don't have those uh yet uh but uh always a good plan reading Chinese cookbooks. Uh some talk about the importance of seasoning walks. The general method is to heat up oil and/or lard and uh some sort of allium. Traditionally uh garlic chives, but a combination of scallion and ginger is also recommended.
+
+[35:16] They say that the heating process opens the pores of the metal, uh, the aromatics permeate the metal, and the whole process helps create a nonstick surface. Could you please talk a bit about seasoning a pan? Is it crap or is this something I should be doing? And if so, do you have a better method? Thanks, Mike.
+
+[35:32] Excellent question. Uh so uh the last time I spent a lot of uh time researching um seasoning and in general is uh when I did a post years ago on cast iron uh pans in in general cast iron pans. Uh and seasoning is not uh crap. Seasoning is actually important. And there's a slight debate in the community uh about what exactly is going on when you're seasoning a pan.
+
+[36:03] Uh I think pretty much for me the the accepted reason uh seasoning a pan is that you are creating uh well, you you put a thin layer of oil and then or you know, fat, and when you heat it, the fat is breaking down and polymerizing and forming a basically a uh polymerized oil film uh on top of the pan, it's binding with the pan, and it's that surface that is uh nonstick. Okay? And also you know, black. You know you have it there because it's black or it's brown. And it's the same sort of uh reaction that happens uh in oil paint, when oil paints uh are dry, right?
+
+[36:44] Those they they use in oil paints they use specifically something called a drying oil because it polymerizes and forms uh this kind of solid network. If you've ever seen uh vegetable oil that's spilled on a surface or been allowed to stay on a surface for a long time and it forms that yellow gunk, right? Stash, you know what I'm talking about, that yellow gunk. Uh that is partially polymerized uh oil. Uh and so uh th that's what's going on.
+
+[37:10] Uh and it works. Now there's uh there's a um uh another group that thinks it's a different kind of oxidized uh iron that's the same, but it's uh what's it called? Uh magnet magnetite or whatever it is, that is the uh another form of iron oxide that's not rust, that's protective uh and is a similar one that they use when you're blueing guns, uh blued, you know, blued steel for bluing guns, similar sort of thing. I don't think that's the case. Um I think it's a polymerized oil.
+
+[37:36] Now, in a pen, when you're seasoning, a couple of things uh are important. Uh first is that you want to I uh a lot of people debate whether or not a particular kind of oil is more or less important. I don't really think it's that big of a deal. What you want to make sure of is that you don't put a thin, a thick, thick, thick, gloppy layer of oil on it when you're seasoning it. And the reason is that uh if you do, uh it's gonna form thicker layers and those layers will partially polymerize, but they're never going to be as tough uh or as uniform uh as uh lots of thin layers built up.
+
+[38:12] And uh if you um if you and you'll see this, if you let a thin layer thick there, when you when you start when you start scraping it down with a spatula, you'll uh you'll it'll dig into it and and pieces of the seasoning will flake up and that's not considered good. So that's why there's a lot of rubbing with paper towels. That's why when you're seasoning a pot in the oven, they turn them upside down so that any oil that is free that's not been wiped around enough drips off of the uh pan before it gets too polymerized and forms kind of little crappy spots. All right. So, I mean, the classic technique is uh multiple coatings of oil in an oven that is hotter than frying temperature.
+
+[38:55] So like 450, I usually use something like that. Or like if you're seasoning a griddle, I can s I'll season it directly. I can even season pans on a flame as long as you don't heat them up too much, because uh, you know, you'll you can burn the seasoning off of a pan if you if you put it at like 650 in a self-clean cycle in an oven, you can burn the seasoning off of a pan. Uh although I don't know the exact temperature. Now, the the interesting thing about the uh the onion the the onions, the alliums, when you're seasoning a wok.
+
+[39:24] And I looked into this. And before I get into the seasoning of the alum with uh with the wok, I let me say this. Uh I don't have a lot of experience because I uh another thing I was interested in walks when the question came in is is you know what's the difference is there a difference in cooking in cooking capabilities or style or feel between a traditional hand hammered wok, which is made by taking a sheet of steel and hammering it into a wok shape, uh, or uh a spun wok, where basically they take the the the disc and uh press it between uh two uh you know wooden chucks and s and spin it fast and then use a stick to push the wok down into a wok shape. Or a stamped walk, which is basically just you know a big hydraulic press, boom, stamps out the stamps out the wok. And uh I don't know if there's a difference, and I wasn't able to find any sort of difference uh online.
+
+[40:16] Now there is a possibility, and you mentioned in your question, uh porosity. Uh and and i I think it is uh no one has I don't remember uh because it's been a long time since I researched, but I I don't think that that I don't know what the difference is in porosity between uh different things. But I will say this. The surface of the pan does make a difference in uh how something works when it cooks. And let's go back to regular cast iron pans which I have a lot more experience with.
+
+[40:41] Modern cast iron cookware that is produced is basically straight from the cast. So if you look at the surface of a cast iron pan, it's got a little bit of a I don't know hard to say. Like you know what I'm talking about a little rough sandpapery look to it. And uh I don't like that, right? Uh that's always got that little bit of a of a of a rough feel.
+
+[41:04] Some people think that's going to actually enhance the uh non-stickness because it it decreases the actual area of contact of the food with the pan, which therefore less area to stick. That's why certain nonstick pants have those little dimples in the bottom. I think it's a horrible idea. The pans I like were sanded to relie to show a bare metal uh surface at the bottom of something that they called polishing but you could literally just take like a sander or a grinder to get that kind of sandpaper that sandpaper feel finish off the bottom of it. And those things take seasoning like a mother and they come out like a black piece of glass.
+
+[41:42] They're so slick and and my cast iron that is you know at least 50 years old that was made that way is the is the cast iron in my place that is the best in terms of uh non non stickness. Um it's just it's great. Um and another thing, by the way, back to walks. Uh, when you're looking at a walk, some people are worried about using a metal spatula with their cast iron. Don't be worried about it.
+
+[42:06] In fact, with a walk, you're always using a cast iron. It actually helps to to knock little bit. If you have a good seasoning on it, using something metal will help to knock little bits that were st that will stick off and build up on your and your product. So don't worry about that. Uh but the interesting part of your question, it's something I hadn't thought about, was the reaction of the chives or garlic chives with the pan.
+
+[42:27] And I don't think that it's horse hockey. I think that there's something to it. But I woke because I watched a couple videos of people seasoning walks online. Here's a couple of things. First, uh uh first of all, most people don't cook with uh cut with carbon knives anymore, with knives that other words that will stain, that aren't stainless.
+
+[42:45] I have a couple in my house because I happen to like them. Everyone who has a carbon steel knife, one that you know will rust, will tell you that when you're cutting uh an onion, uh that onion will taste bad, especially if there's uh if it's not properly seasoned. Wait, you know what? I got a quick call, I'll take the call in, and then I'll go back to onions and knives and walk season because it's it's it's uh super interesting, at least to me, hopefully to somebody else. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[43:12] Hey Je uh hey uh Dave, it's Brian uh here in San Francisco. How are you? Doing well, yourself? Good, good. Um I wanted to thank you for answering my question about sugars uh a couple weeks ago.
+
+[43:22] And so now I'm I'm no longer paranoid about NutraSweet and uh all the uh the artificial sugars. Good. And you're and your your wife's okay with it, every everyone's good? She hasn't dropped dead yet. No, good, good, good.
+
+[43:34] I had some neutral sweet last night and I'm not dead. What? I had some neutral sweet just last night and I haven't died yet. Well maybe you should uh maybe it'll take another couple days. We'll see.
+
+[43:44] Well, to be to be honest though, though, but back on that, that's not actually like the fact that we haven't died yet isn't necessarily uh a good argument because there are things, I'm not saying neutral street's one of them, because I don't think it is. There are things that take twenty years to kill you, like asbestos. Anyway, uh go ahead. Right, or mad cow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:59] There you go. Um, so my question has to do with the uh uh I was reading the Modernist cuisine, and they recommended um putting a slab of like quarter or quarter inch or three quarter inch um aluminum into your oven as a hack for pizzas. And I know you have some experience with um um hacking your oven, but uh I I don't want to completely destroy and dis um dismember mine. So I'm wondering what you think about that as a as uh a better um technique than um than a pizza stone. Hmm.
+
+[44:38] So wait, they they're telling you to put they're telling you to put the pizza directly onto the aluminum? Exactly. Huh. Well, I've never tried it. I mean uh the here's the the basic theory of operation.
+
+[44:50] Um have you ever fill okay, so if you have an oven that doesn't have a lot a lot of power in it, and you fill that oven with stones, not just like a sm like one pizza stone, but a lot, you'll notice that it it takes a long, long, long, long time for your oven to heat up because it it you have to put a lot uh it's taking a lot of power to heat up those stones. Do you know what I'm saying? So I once had an oven that I've yeah, like a long time. I had an oven I completely lined the inside almost like it was a masonry oven, and hours it would take for it to heat up. Uh and um so maybe they're thinking that's not a a good tack to take w with your oven.
+
+[45:29] Aluminum, how thick were they saying? They were saying three quarters inch, but then I was reading E. Golid's and Nathan said oh, you could go down to a quarter inch. Well, I don't know about here aluminum just because it's light. Right.
+
+[45:42] Aluminum well, the here here's a couple of things. So the what you want to do with the crust, I'm assuming that their theory of operation is that they want to put a big and instantaneous heat wallop into the bottom of the crust, right? Exactly. Now, aluminum is the a super fast conductor, one of the best. You know, it's like right up there with copper.
+
+[46:03] Not as good as copper, but right up there in terms of heat. And uh the issue with it is is that it doesn't store it it it it transmits heat very quickly, but it doesn't store heat very well because it uh it just doesn't it's lighter, right? So it's doesn't have as much mass, and uh you know, and it doesn't take that much energy to heat up a block of aluminum. So the advantage is your oven will heat it very quickly compared to other things. It will heat very evenly, right?
+
+[46:36] And whatever heat energy is in it will be delivered to your pizza very quickly, and uh it also won't cool down that much uh because the oven can supply heat to it uh fairly quickly as well. So unlike a uh a pizza stone, if you're gonna make a bunch of pizzas with a pizza stone, you'll notice that it it starts lagging after a couple of pizzas because you've exhausted the heat that is at the surface of the stone, and it's taking a long time for it to kind of replenish that heat because the stone doesn't heat up very quickly, whereas aluminum heats extremely quickly. Because you know, those guys are good at that, I'm sure those guys did the calculation of how much heat is really necessary to deliver to your pizza on an instantaneous basis to get that good crust, that good boost on the crust. And that's why they're getting whatever thickness of aluminum it is that they're getting is so that there's enough energy in that ingot to zap your crust fast. Is that makes yeah that that that makes sense.
+
+[47:39] Does it make a difference the kind of metal? Yeah. Well c mean really expensive. You know what I mean? Yeah, obviously if fly with copper then you you know.
+
+[47:48] Yeah, and heavy. Uh and heavy. Stainless? No, awful. No, with stainless steel work?
+
+[47:55] Yeah, awful. No, terrible. Yeah, stainless is terrible. So like I like uh when I was testing uh um like before I was making my own red hot pokers for drinks, I would have uh uh slugs of different metals that I was using to heat over a flame and then and then uh and then heat drinks with and stainless was just awful. It's a slow conductor uh of it's a very slow conductor of heat compared even to uh iron.
+
+[48:21] Very slow. Uh yeah it's just it has the advantage of being non-reactive. Uh is is all it's got. It's expensive, it's heavy and it's slow. Uh you know which is why your good pots um are a th you know uh have a big chunk of aluminum in the bottom of them and uh you know or copper uh and then like a a layer of stainless that your food actually touches it's probably quite thin.
+
+[48:47] Do you know what I mean? Yeah stainless terrible you think this would be good for bread in addition to uh in in in addition to pizza or it would be too hot for bread. Uh no I mean no it's I think it it would probably it would probably work. It would depend on what temperature. I mean, obviously you're not cranking your oven as high on um you're not cranking your oven as high for bread as you are for a pizza.
+
+[49:09] Uh I it's been many years since I've done very thorough research on um bread baking and crust interactions, so I'd have to figure out whether you're actually getting any sort of benefit from the masonry surface other than the delivery of heat. But uh I don't see why it wouldn't I don't see why it wouldn't wouldn't work. I don't see why it wouldn't work. But if you can afford the thicker one, I would get the thicker one. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:37] Yeah. Uh if you look online, uh go to McMaster dot com. It's not cheap, but they uh it's easy to uh obtain aluminum from them and you can uh figure out there's a there's a uh you know, most of this stuff goes by weight, but then sometimes there's a price uh break where if you start getting it thicker, all of a sudden the price jumps more than just the weight jump. And so you can kind of see where that sweet spot is. I looked it up a while ago and I think it's somewhere around half inch that starts getting expensive to get bigger slabs, uh, at least n normally.
+
+[50:09] Or if you know if you if you live if you have a car and you live uh, you know, outside of the major city, you could probably just go to aluminum supply uh and get it. But McMaster Car, they're everywhere. You could at least get an idea of prices. They're about thirty percent more than they should be at McMaster Car, but it'll give you an idea. Okay, great.
+
+[50:27] Thanks. Um uh do you think I should season it? Aluminum? No, no, aluminum, no. No.
+
+[50:34] Okay. Yeah. It forms its own oxide and it's not n you're not gonna be able to do anything good with it. Okay, great. Thanks so much.
+
+[50:40] Hey, no problem. You two. All right. Jack says we have one more minute. Oh, one more minute!
+
+[50:45] All right, so when you take a carbon steel knife and cut through an onion, uh you'll see that it picks up a flavor, right? The onion picks up a flavor and the onion tastes uh the onion tastes bad. Uh and I did some more research, and old timers used to rub onions on their knives to develop a patina on the knife. And I looked on the web and people are now uh for um kind of environmentally friendly corrosion inhibitors making garlic extracts that they rub on knives as corrosion uh inhibitors on knives. So there is, and it's it's basically these sulfur compounds that are in uh that are in onions, in alliums in scallions that are uh interacting with iron, right, to inhibit corrosion in uh on an on a knife, but they also take up the bad flavors into the onions themselves.
+
+[51:33] This is apparently th the theory of operation in the stainless steel anti-uh onion smell on your hand thing. But I don't know if those work because those are stainless. It'd probably be better off using carbon steel blocks instead of stainless steel blocks to get rid of the onion flavor. So there is an interaction between onions and iron. Uh the other thing is that if you look at people on the web seasoning with the chives, it's basically a way uh to scrape around and also move oil around so that the oil is not sitting in one place.
+
+[52:00] So the the chives are the these like chives, the long chives or garlic chives, are one uh kind of uh interacting with the metal, taking metal away from it. I don't think it's adding a good flavor to the pan. I think it's removing bad flavors from the pan, right? And and absorbing those bad flavors onto the onion, absorbing uh, you know, any sort of uh free iron that's on the on the surface of it. Now the other thing is is that instead of uh onions, which don't act this way, the scallion things, because they're like paper when they wilt, they're almost like a scrubby pad that you're using along with the metal spatula to move the oil around so that you're not getting any caked-on pieces of oil anywhere.
+
+[52:37] So uh the theory is they're um interacting with the metal to remove stuff that you don't want that's on there, and they're pushing the oil around in uh in a nice way such that you have a nice even coating all the way around the pan. My bet this is a good way to season it. Now, why scallions and not something like garlic? Uh I don't know, I haven't used that much garlic chives with this sort of thing. I mean I've used them, but not that much.
+
+[52:59] If you were to use this with garlic, it would make a scorched awful flavor, which would probably mess with you and mess with your pan, but but chives don't have an awful flavor once they get charred. And so you can continue to use those chives all the way up until the char point, which is where around where you're gonna want to be to get accurate seasoning of the pan to get it nice and black. And there you have it, cooking it juice! Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[53:40] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[53:59] Get it straight.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five generation Georgia based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit Whiteoak Pastures.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold. You're a host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans, Louisiana. Nastasha, as always, is back in Bushwick, Bushwick, Brooklyn, or Bertha's Pizzeria, with Jack and Joe and the rest of the Heritage Radio gang. How you doing, guys? Good.
+
+[0:43] Good. Nastasia was just telling me how much she likes Brooklyn. Yeah. No, I wasn't. Really?
+
+[0:48] Were you actually saying that? Or is it more anti-hipster uh Mitrial? That was a lie. That was a lie. I said they're having their block party, and I said I wish I liked Brooklyn so that I could come.
+
+[0:58] Well, let's uh let's push their block party. When's the block party? It's on Saturday. You know what? We'll play the block party commercial on one of the breaks.
+
+[1:06] It's it's uh it's a trip. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Block party.
+
+[1:10] If you like going to Brooklyn and you like block parties, two things I actually detest, because I you're being outside in the daytime in like large groups of people. Like I detest when they shut down no offense to people who love it, but I detest like street fairs in New York when they shut down whole avenues, and then you like walk up and down and it's all the people. You hate that too, Nastasha, right? Yeah, I hate it. My friends love it.
+
+[1:30] I hate it too. Yeah, but it's it sucks. I mean, who needs it? I mean, I can go to a regular store and buy a pair of socks. Isn't that what they sell there?
+
+[1:38] Yeah, but the corn the corn I must is pretty good. Like the corn and butter and chili sauce. All the rapes. Yeah. Yeah, a rape of a fine product, bad name.
+
+[1:48] Yeah, okay. I I'll hand it to you on that, but uh Yeah. The shirts and the sets anywhere bad. Yeah, but uh all the all the people and then like I always need to we always need to move equipment whenever there's one of those things, and then you hit them and then the traffic is insane and all this other. Why doesn't anyone just set up a shop to sell Arapas and corn a real freaking shop and then you would know, hey, I want like a giant thing of corn dipped in butter with some spice sprayed at that thing and I could just go to the shop and get that thing is they have to pay rent at a shop, the you know.
+
+[2:20] The street fairly there's plenty of things that you have to pay rent for that people go and shop for and purchase. Why not corn? Yeah. How much how much is how much is one of those years of corn at the at the thing? It's a dollar?
+
+[2:32] Yeah, come on. I mean that doesn't cost them almost nothing, I'm sure. I guess the problem is that it's seasonal because you're only getting corn in the summer and then what do you what do you dip in butter for the rest of the year? I don't know. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:43] Like they don't want to move to like a c frozen ear of corn situation. Those things are always disappointing. The frozen ear of corn, you ever had that? No. You buy the frozen ear of corn in the supermarket and then you try and cook it and you hope it's gonna be as good as corn is w you know in like uh July, August, but it isn't.
+
+[2:58] No. No, it don't start. If you haven't started already, don't start now. How's New Orleans? I mean, I literally just you know, got here, checked into the hotel and then uh, you know, d started doing the research uh for the show.
+
+[3:10] But it's you know, like you'd expect hot as hell. Mm-hmm. Humid. Humid. And the cocktail people have already descended.
+
+[3:16] So for those of you that don't know, every year, right around now, uh there's Tales of the Cocktail, which for the cocktail industry is the biggest kind of it's the biggest event of the year. You know, alm like a a huge uh chunk of the kind of whatever you want to call them, cocktail intel intelligente, whatever the hell you want to call 'em, from all over the country, in fact the world, fly in here uh to learn from each other and I guess drink a lot. And uh they have it in New Orleans in the middle of the summer because no one else wants to be here, and only the cocktail people are dumb enough to come to New York in the mi uh come to New Orleans rather in the middle of the summer when it's a billion degrees and a hundred percent humidity. But uh the the advantage is hotels are cheap right now. Hotels are cheap here.
+
+[3:59] It's like a hundred bucks a night to stay in New Orleans right now. Nastasha, not a big fan. Not a big fan. Not a big fan. Okay.
+
+[4:08] Uh now, two oh, by the way, calling your questions live to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. I believe we still have an open line to take a caller in, even though I am using one to call in from my hotel room. Uh for yeah. First question from Fred.
+
+[4:23] Hey, Dave, uh Nastasha, uh, Jack, Indie Jesus, and all the rest, which by the way, just say Joe, you don't see all the rest. This is like this is like one of those situations, uh this is one of those situations like with the with the with the skipper and Mary Ann with the with the with the Gilligan's Island. Where all they had to do was say one last person, and instead they just say the rest. It's Joe. But but they might be on like back podcasts and they haven't caught up yet, you know?
+
+[4:46] So Yeah, yeah. Alright, anyway. And remember, Indy Jesus is no longer part of our the old podcast. They might be catching up. Right, right.
+
+[4:55] But it's for so you know, Indy Jesus, because he hates Nastasha, has quit the shift that's on Tuesdays. So we m we might have to switch our radio show day to match up uh Indie Jesus. Sunday, no. Sunday night uh, Jesus works on Sunday though. No.
+
+[5:11] Uh-huh. Anyway, okay. Uh Fred writes in, I recently picked up a turkey roaster. It's a Hamilton Beach model 32503. Is it possible to beep frying one of those things?
+
+[5:21] How good is the temperature control? Thanks, Fred. Okay. So what we're talking about are these uh ovens that uh you well, kind of uh ovens. They look like giant crock pots.
+
+[5:29] Um this one uh I looked it up, it's 18 quart, which is I think one of the standard sizes. This particular model discontinued. Uh but they have a pan that you can pull out and wash out. You throw the turkey on top of a rack into the pan and you roast your turkey, and it theoretically it's faster. Also, it frees up your oven so that you can on Thanksgiving time use your oven for all the rest of the nonsense that you need your oven for and cook your turkey in this uh in this kind of basically this in quotes oven.
+
+[5:56] Uh it's kind of like you know, like a Dutch, it's like cooking it in a in a Dutch oven with its own its own heat source. Um and I think I mentioned on the show once or twice that I had one of those that I bought at a thrift shop from the you know, it was from the 60s or something like that, and I bought it in a thrift shop in college, and I used to bake bread in it. And I loved it. It was great. Uh smelled horrible because there was something wrong with the insides of it, but it still worked great, and it made great bread.
+
+[6:18] Um well, grape bread for for that. Great bread for a dorm room, let's put it that way. I mean, I don't, you know, it's not great bread compared to what our listeners think of as grape bread. Anyway, will it work as a deep fryer? It clearly gets hot enough to work as a deep fryer, and I looked up the wattage on uh uh on a on a representative one.
+
+[6:35] I couldn't find the exact one to find the wattage, but the wattage is somewhere in the area of 1400 watts. Uh and uh you know, you I doubt you're gonna find a uh fryer that plugs into a normal socket that's much higher than that, like maybe it would go up to 1500 watts, uh maybe a little bit higher. But uh none of the electric plug-in fryers really have uh as many watts as I would want them to have. Uh to because the key for uh frying is of course uh fast uh recovery. Now uh now the way that these things work is they're the pan uh that you put in the into it with the with the turkey in it rests on the plate that's actually doing the heating.
+
+[7:14] So you're gonna have some issue about uh some heat loss in between the plate and the and and the pan. But I'm mostly worried about stuff falling to the bottom and scorching on the bottom as the heater clicks uh off and on. I don't think the heating control is going to be very accurate at all. Uh but I don't think it's that necessary to have super accurate um heat uh for deep frying. But uh I think uh your main problem is gonna be uh scorching of particles on the bottom, because uh a fryer that's really, really good at its job isn't gonna be heating uh the electrical element's not gonna be the very bottom of the unit.
+
+[7:48] The element will be floating somewhat above the surface of the oil uh such that particles can fall underneath it and not scorch on the thing that's actually being heated. It's a better way to fry, especially doesn't matter so much if you're doing something like donuts because donuts don't throw off a lot of little particles. But if you're doing something like chicken in a batter and the batter is gonna fall off, those little bits of flour get burnt and are gonna get nasty against the bottom of the pan. That said, it should work. I do not think anyone will actually recommend that you do it because I'm sure the insurance on a fryer is a lot more and you want to make sure you don't uh have it overflow and uh ignite and or burn you or scorch you or anything like that.
+
+[8:26] So I'm not gonna make any claims to the uh uh safety of it, but I mean it should be able to do an okay job. Now here's the other problem. Uh 1400 watts is gonna be enough power for a small, small fryer to get up really hot really fast. But 1400 watts distributed over something the size of an 18 quart uh roasting oven is not gonna be that much power. And and in the end, so even though it's fairly powerful for what would be a home fryer, it's a lot bigger than what a home fryer would be, and so I think it's gonna be sucking wind when you throw stuff in it.
+
+[8:59] So if you were to heat it up to temperature and only throw a couple little things in, you might be able to get good results. But I would bet that if you really loaded it down with like, you know, like you know, a whole fried chicken or something like that, that the temperature would drop drastically and that you'd have some problems. But that's uh just my guess. If you um if you it is powerful enough for you and you just don't think the temperature control is good enough, you could buy a simple PID uh, you know, PID temperature controller and uh and a thermocouple and bypass the thermostat entirely. Just plug it.
+
+[9:29] Although you don't want PID, you gotta switch it, turn it off of PID, which is going to be a very accurate temperature control. And for deep frying, you want on off. But most good PID controllers that you buy, you can turn them into on off controllers, right? Uh so a PID controller, like it's just gonna slowly get up to the temperature and not overshoot. You don't care if you overshoot a little bit, you just want it to get up there fast.
+
+[9:50] So as soon as the temperature of the oil drops, you want it to go on full blast. But then you can have an external control that can be very accurate and uh well as accurate as an uh on off or bang bang uh thermostat can be. Uh and that wouldn't add that much to the cost, but you might have uh a power problem. What do you think, Stuzz? Is that a good answer?
+
+[10:07] Good answer. All right. Um Colin, dearest y'all, could you revive uh this question? Are pressure cooked jams a good idea? So I had to go back, uh, I think it was in May and found uh Colin's question on pressure cooked jams.
+
+[10:23] A few weeks ago, um I bought a whole boatload of uh cumquats uh and made marmalade, and then they wanted he wanted to know could marmal jam in jam in general be prepared in a pressure cooker to prevent the loss of volatile flavors, because he realized that the smell that he was uh that was coming off of the pot was uh smell that was being lost, right? That's the theory, right? Uh and so basically he says, what I understand is happening is that the boiling temperature of the uh marmalade or jam solution increases as water is being boiled off, and that stopping at a particular temperature in a pressure cook uh sorry, stopping at a particular temperature when you're cooking a jam is equivalent to stopping at a particular uh hydration level or amount of water or you know, or the or the solids level that's in it. Uh, and that we add extra water to a jam recipe because the pectin needs time uh to cook and break out, um, and and there there you have it. Um so the question is, could he seal the mixture in a pressure cooker and cook the jam without losing uh water or volatiles and get an equivalent texture with improved flavor?
+
+[11:28] The boiling temperature will increase at the increase increased pressure, but do you think that will affect the pectin uh uh slash pro you know properties of the jam overall? I suppose there could be more thermal breakdown of flavor in a pressure cooker uh despite the decreased loss of volatiles, what are my thoughts? Okay. Well, if you're gonna do it this first of all, uh here's the here's the issue. If you knew uh I I have to do some research and maybe during the commercial break, I can look it up because I I forgot to look it up.
+
+[11:55] But you need what you need to know is the actual solids level of the uh jam that you're that you're shooting for. If the solids level, uh the bricks is reasonable, like in the on the order of sixty percent or or or or thereabouts, uh 70% even, then you could uh probably just add the ingredients to a jar in a pressure cooker, uh seal it so that even if you had a non uh uh a venting pressure cooker, which I don't like using, I like using non venting pressure cookers in general because they uh I think they do a better job with flavor, but if you're sealing in a canning jar, it doesn't make much difference. Uh and and pressure cook it uh at that higher temperature. You could conceivably get uh a product that will work. But you have to know beforehand what the solid level of the fruit pulp is, and uh then therefore calculate how much sugar to add to it, and you'd have to get it fairly accurate.
+
+[12:58] Uh that is all doable, and if uh I don't know, maybe if uh Jack or Joe has the time to research while we're talking the uh bricks level, B R I X level of uh jam or jelly, uh you we could do a ballpark estimate of whether or not it's feasible to just add all the ingredients, sugar, fruit, etc. into a jar and uh pressure cook it. But uh it I mean it might be possible. I don't know. It would be difficult because uh you'd have to make sure you got it right every time.
+
+[13:25] Does that make sense? Yeah, you have a caller. Oh, caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, hey Jack, hey Stas, how's it going? Good.
+
+[13:34] This is Matt from this is Matt from Chicago. Howdy. Hi, I had a question about uh low temperature cooking of skirt steak. Um I tried it uh sous vide with a recipe I found on the web and it was as tough as had I cooked it for you know over a flame for hours. And I wonder if you had any ideas on how to uh get better results.
+
+[13:55] Give me the recipe that you used. You know, I don't remember. That's the problem. I think it was the one on the poly science uh website. How how long did you cook it?
+
+[14:08] Jeez, it seems like maybe two hours. Yeah. And uh so h here's here's the thing. So if you're cooking a skirt steak, uh I I like to do skirt steak uh low temp, but what temperature you cook the skirt steak to is entirely dependent upon how long you cook it, right? So if you're only gonna cook the skirt steak for a couple of hours, you're gonna need to go fairly high, like uh uh uh fifty seven Celsius, let's say, which is a good number, fifty-seven Celsius.
+
+[14:39] If you're gonna do it for like an hour or forty five minutes or an hour and a half like that. Then you have to cool it down and then sear it. Because the skirt steak is so thin that if you um if you were to try to sear it directly out of the circulator, just overcook and you might as well not have done low temp at all. Okay. Okay.
+
+[14:57] I think I I think I did actually I think I did sear it afterwards immediately. So Yeah. I mean you have to sear it afterwards really, or the texture's not gonna be very, very good. You know, but you know the uh go ahead. Yeah, the other way to do it is to cook it down near where you'd cook a ribeye, so like fifty-five, uh, for a long time, like uh nine nine, ten hours.
+
+[15:21] Uh or you know, e and then let it let it cool down again and then uh just take it and hard, hard sear it and that will actually warm up the inside and overcook the outside a little bit, but that's gonna give a really, really high quality tender skirt steak. Um if you're it you the alternative, right, is to sear it beforehand like it's a normal skirt steak and then just quickly throw it into into uh into like a uh a bag and uh let it let it come up to temp in in a circulator. The problem is your crust isn't gonna be that great afterwards. Yeah and it's really a good candidate but it it isn't a good candidate for the double sear I I take it. Or is it well you can't you you can I've done a double sear uh on it and what the advantage of the double sear is that um the second time you sear it it's gonna color and crust up really quickly.
+
+[16:16] Um but you know then you you might might run the problem that you you know something goes wrong and you and you um uh and you you know dry it out a little bit I if I would definitely not on skirt steak pre-sear it before you low temp it. Um because it's gonna cure through fairly quickly with the salt. I would definitely I mean pepper is fine or whatever or whatever marinade you want but I would not uh I would not salt it um until right before the second sear. Okay that's interesting. I I actually use um lime juice in my marinade and it just makes it absolutely delicious.
+
+[16:50] And and I usually just do it the standard you know just sear it in a real hot pan after it's marinated a while and don't even bother with low temp but I figured I'd try it. I've got a I've got a rig in my basement for for low temp cook here for Soused and I figured I'd try it because you know I'm trying everything sous vide now that I got the rig. Uh and some things have turned out really good but the skirt steak is one thing that did not and I was just curious if you had any thoughts so I appreciate it. Do this and you're gonna you're gonna love this. This is what this is the way that I actually cook skirt steak.
+
+[17:21] Right. I would do it the I would not sear it beforehand. Uh I would do your do your your marinade or whatever else you want to do, put it in the bag, cook it uh if you don't have the time, fifty seven for, like I say, like an hour or so, or like fifty-five for longer, like six, seven whatever hours, it's gonna get more tender. Let it cool down, and then you can even have it in the fridge, pull it out and do your hard sear on it just like you were cooking it normally, and what you'll just have is you can focus on that crust and you just have a much more tender skirt steak on the inside than you would with a normal cooking technique. Okay, I'll give that a shot then.
+
+[17:56] Alrighty, let us know how it worked. All right, thanks a lot, guys. We'll talk to you later. You have another call, Dave. What?
+
+[18:04] You have another call. Okay, Cowler, you're on the air. Hi, yeah, afternoon. How are you? I'm doing all right.
+
+[18:11] All right. So um I'm a bit of a home brewer and um I've been doing a little bit of shopping on modern at the modernist pantry, and um I've been I've been referred to you uh to a solution for a problem that I've been having. Um I've been working on making cream liqueur. Um and uh I've purchased some sodium caseinate um from the modernist pantry, and I I was initially under the impression that that might help me to combine my dairy with my alcohol that I've been producing. And it it's stable for a little while, but I'll let it sit out at room temperature for about six hours, and I put it next to a very small amount of already store-bought cream liqueur, and the store-bought cream liqueur remains stable.
+
+[18:59] However, um mine it it doesn't split uh per se the um the the dairy molecules from the water molecules. Um it just separates into layers as as a thicker um uh uh homogenized cream on the top and a more watery, less viscous liquid on the bottom. Um I'm I'm doing further research and I'm I'm finding out that uh glycerol uh monas glycer glycerol monosterate might help me out GSM um but I was wondering if you had any advice as far as to how I would implement the GSM if I were to obtain some and if I'm maybe using the uh the sodium caseinate incorrectly okay well I had I uh I mean I have a lot of uh experience with emulsified alcoholic beverages but not making cream liquors uh as such uh what what you're using actual cream well I'm start I I I did one batch with a little with a splash of cream and then I did another batch with a splash of milk um I also tried use making my own uh uh condensed cream and using condensed like uh you know with I I think I used malt malt powder a little bit of sugar and milk and a little bit of vanilla and I made like a condensed condensed milk and used tried to use that I thought maybe the sugar would be a decent buffer to help bind the dairy to this to the liquor um I don't know if maybe my alcohol content is something that might be affecting it. I'm at about 22% alcohol content. So I'm not sure if you're but you're you're um you're you're yeah so you're not curdling at all you're just getting phase separation.
+
+[20:52] Yes. Yeah. Um I mean I'm guessing that I mean I don't I I've never researched like uh like Bailey's or anything like that, uh to see like what the fat content of Bailey's is. But if you're getting a phase separation, it just sounds like you need uh an emulsifier in there. Um you know, uh and you know what you're mentioning is uh you know isn't is an emulsifier.
+
+[21:17] The one that I I typically use in uh in the drinks at Booker and Dax is probably won't work for your application uh or it might is a mixture and this is not what the cream liqueur people use at all, but is a mixture of it's gum arabic which acts as a an emulsifier and Xanthan which acts as a stabilizer. Now you probably want to go to kind of a more of a hardcore uh uh emulsifier. When you get when you when you when the phase sep when you get the phase separation, if you just rock it back and forth, does it go back together or no? It uh I actually it does to an extent, but I think it's more of like the temperature that it's been sitting at for a while because all the ingredients I'm I'm mixing them sort of like the dairies just from the fridge. You know, I haven't gone I haven't been able to sit down and test it from letting the dairy sit out at room temperature.
+
+[22:12] I I also found that heat became a factor in uh the initial combination. Uh it was important that the that the dairy was warm in order to get the emulsification to work initially. Um and then once it cools down and it sits and it settles at room temperature for a while it eventually separates. Um and I can get it to come back together but then once I let it sit for about another half hour after, you know, uh spinning it back together, it'll separate again. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.
+
+[22:43] I like uh this is an interesting thing. I should know I should know this uh just because of you know what I do for a living. So what I what I'm gonna do is uh I I'm gonna figure out what they do in the industry to make cream liqueurs and whether or not the what the fat level, if any, is of those things, and kind of figure out how they do it. Uh and then I'll come back pro probably not next week, because next week I don't know if I'm gonna be able to have the the radio show because I'm gonna be in the air on the way to um California, I think. But the week after that, I'm gonna come back and and answer that question, I'll give you a much more definitive answer, okay?
+
+[23:15] Okay. Um and uh if uh if by chance are you you are in the city right now, all right? I'm I'm in New Orleans, at Tails of the Cocktail. Oh you Oh, okay. I was under the impression that you were in in Manhattan or in New York City.
+
+[23:28] Um all right. Um well would uh would you would you be able to also I mean uh I know that you say you're gonna be going back on the air with these answers, but would there be any way you might be able to contact me directly? Uh it's possible. Give uh when you when you go off, give uh give Jack uh your info or maybe we could uh tweet it out or something like that. Alrighty.
+
+[23:48] All right. Uh thank you very much for your time. Uh do you um la lastly, do you would you think that the if I were to purchase some Glosseral Monastery, do you think that that might be a decent avenue to approach? I just don't I don't I don't wanna I don't want to rest say yes or no off the top of my head without uh really doing the research on it. All right.
+
+[24:09] Thank you very much for your time. Hi cool. Um, right before we take the break, right before we take the break, uh uh Joel uh Gargano writes in, who by the way is from New Haven, which is where the anyway, so Jack wanted to know does anyone want the Bluetooth, the the the music from my college days? And we got the first person in says that they like that. I wrote in a few months back about soy whipped cream.
+
+[24:34] Your advice helped, and I made some adjustment. It turns out that soft tofu coconut milk and some stabilizers uh works great right out of the siphon, the uh whipped cream siphon, but more importantly, I want more Bluetooth. This crap is heavy. Do we have a do we have a link to any of this anywhere? So, Jack, we have someone that wants the Bluetooth.
+
+[24:50] Wow. There it is. Right. So when you retire. Yeah.
+
+[24:55] Unfortunately, Joel, no Bluetooth today because it's only on my iPhone and uh we don't have it actually copied over onto the Heritage Radio um uh computers, so we're gonna have to go because enough of the cheesy jazz, no offense, I like jazz. Plus, he also wants pictures of me getting my face smashed in on stage, which I I don't think actually exist uh unf unfortunately. But uh, you know, he wants like stage diving picks and stuff like that. And then he he his suggestion is that we start a band where uh you know I guess he's gonna come in and start start a band with us where we write about my art reactions and agar agar clarification, and he wants to call it my art and the reactors. He's gonna let me have bass solos in every song, but he only wants to do it if we can get Indy Jesus to be the front man.
+
+[25:37] What do you think, Jack? We'll have to see. That's gonna be tough. He's in high demand. Yeah, Indy I'm sure every every band in Bushwick wants Indy Jesus as the front man.
+
+[25:46] Why wouldn't they? Yeah, right? I mean, even Nastasha would go to see Indy Jesus as a front man, and she hates hipster bands. Loves bands. Nastasha, by the way, like her one of her great lifetime skills is to be able to get into any any concert for free with uh and go backstage without having to perform any sort of awful acts.
+
+[26:05] I retired that. Retired, but it's like it's a you know it's a great skill. It's like I can shotgun a beer very well, also a retired skill of mine. I don't go around shotgunning beers anymore. Jimmy Fallon show.
+
+[26:16] It wasn't retired. It hasn't been retired. I didn't shotgun a beer at the Jimmy Fallon show. You won you asked if you could. Remember?
+
+[26:22] I was joking. Joking. Plus, they only have by the way, for those of you who don't know, we're on the Jimmy Fallon show, and one of their sponsors is Bud Light Platinum, which is basically Bud Light where they add some extra booze to it. It's like straight up, they add extra booze and they put it in like a a blue bottle that looks like kind of like a Saratoga water or a tiny bottle. But you can't shotgun out of a bottle, Sci.
+
+[26:44] It's a show that you know about. Yeah, yes. A a a joke. A joke. Although I am quite good at it.
+
+[26:55] I'm retired. Anyway, uh okay, so why don't we go to our first commercial break? Come back with more cooking issues. Oh my god, I don't seem that far away at all. Where'd you go?
+
+[27:30] Love you back at the LMO. Got a real real real way to go. Sister, hold on the day. Why don't passes is a hundred and forty six year old multi-generational family farm that works in cooperation with nature to produce artisan meat that is safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to eat. Without fail, we ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated.
+
+[28:32] We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit WhiteOakastures.com. You're currently listening to Brothers NYC. Real long way to go. And we're coming back.
+
+[28:59] Yeah. Well, I I guess he's not the he's not the front man, but he's the lead guitar. That's his band. Is his is his twin also in the band? Yeah.
+
+[29:05] That's why they're called Brothers. Oh, yeah. See, it's hard for me to hear over the telephone. I can't hear anything. So we got we got Weepop Soupy Pot slash BAM on the phone?
+
+[29:13] Yes. Hi, Dave Intack. Hi. This is Weep. Weebop.
+
+[29:19] What's up? How's how's everything going? Going well. So for those of you that don't know what's going on, uh We Pop Soupy Pop, aka for the rest of the world, Bam. Uh just got his Kickstarter uh fully funded, and they are making a uh relatively low cost, simple to use at home, immersion circulator.
+
+[29:39] Uh and uh what's the cost of this sucker? Uh it is three fifty-nine. Three fifty-nine. All right, three fifty-nine. And uh, you know, I don't know, go on the K I don't know how how do you buy one of these suckers.
+
+[29:51] So right right now, Kickstarter campaigns closed. Uh so you just go to shop.namiku.com to pre-order one. Now what what's your ETA for actual uh units? ETA for um by Christmas. And I'm just gonna give Yeah, we we have a lot of demands we're gonna give priority to um the Kickstarter people.
+
+[30:12] But um we're we're still working that out. It should be the same batch. All right. So uh uh I hear that you have uh something to discuss over the cooking issues airwave regarding this. Oh silence.
+
+[30:30] Sorry, sorry, I guess. Yeah, silence cut off. So I guess not. No, I didn't I didn't hear you. Oh.
+
+[30:37] Uh you you had you you told me you wanted to speak about Ziploc bags. Oh no, um so yeah, we have we have a lot of emails uh coming in, you know, people being concerned with Ziploc bags. And you know, I I feel like a lot of people still have uh issues with cooking in plastic. So what what we've been doing? Specifically zip zip ziplocks though, as opposed to uh you know you're not getting any calls in uh with questions about cooking in uh sous vide cooked chill bags, right?
+
+[31:10] You have people calling with questions on on the um the wisdom of using ziploc bags uh for cooking low temp, right? Right. Yeah. Uh and well here's here's m here's my my thought. And the reason I guess is because uh on your Kickstarter uh campaign video there is a uh a picture of someone putting food in a Ziploc to um to do the the cooking with uh with your device.
+
+[31:38] What's your device called again? Uh the Namiku. Nami coo. N O M-I-K-U. NAMI coo.
+
+[31:46] Yeah, NAMICU. So um feeling on Ziploc bags. Uh I think I might have told the story once, but I you know I can tell it again. Uh I was doing the Martha Stewart show uh and then they they decided to just have like a bunch of like tech fools on. So uh you know Nathan was on via Mirvold was on via you know uh he wasn't actually on they they showed you know she did a tour Martha Stewart did a tour of his uh his lab there and they had uh Grant Akus was on and uh and I was on and uh so I was talking to Grant backstage Grant Aiket's of course from a Linia I was talking backstage that he was getting um a lot of flack from S.
+
+[32:23] A Johnson Wax a family company which is I believe the people that make the Ziploc bag uh and uh basically they yelled at him because he had a video on the web where he was using a Ziploc to do um to do his low temperature cooking. And uh and I I think it's really strange that they have a problem with it or that anyone has a problem with it because the Ziploc bags are rated for reheating uh in a nuke right I mean it says right on it that you can reheat uh stuff in them in a nuke. The issue is um like a Ziploc bag and I I could be wrong but I'm not is made out of uh polyethylene and uh uh you know and food food food grade obviously polyethylene and uh it's the same stuff that um uh most plastic wrap is made out of polyethylene and uh what it can't do is get anywhere near the boiling because boiling point of water, 100 C because it the it gets very very soft there and that's very close to the melting point. However, it works fine uh in the 50s and I never really take it above the low sixties ever because I I don't have a need to Celsius that is. But in that range uh they are perfectly fine and I d I can't understand any argument uh uh against using Ziploc bags uh for cooking low temp at those temperatures so long as you aren't assuming that you're preserving something for any length of time because you haven't put a vacuum seal on it, so long as you're not heating it uh above uh any other uh you know uh you know uh above in the sixties somewhere I can't see any argument whereby cooking in any form of plastic would be okay and not in a Ziploc under those uh circumstances.
+
+[34:19] Um do you know what I'm saying? Yeah yeah so like um the food food savers and a lot of you know side sealers that are on the market they're they're using the same kind of material and somehow somehow those are being like promoted or used with uh you know like the Google Supreme or whatever. Right well I just cook chill bags like even cooked chill I mean polyethylene is a good choice and I'm having a little trouble hearing you but polyethylene is a good choice for um for food applications just because it it doesn't have to have plasticizers in it uh and it doesn't react with food uh very much. Usually those bags that were rated to higher temperatures will have multiple multiple plastic layers uh and so that they keep their uh integrity at at at higher temperatures. Uh but again again like most of this is completely moot because we're keeping our temperatures very much lower than is ever going to be a problem uh when we're using low temperature cooking.
+
+[35:21] So I just I literally except for the fact that Johnson S. C. Johnson Wax doesn't I believe it's S. C. Johnson Wax does not want to uh have any sort of liability from saying you can cook in their bags as opposed to you know reheating in a very specific way because they don't want to assume that liability they just say you can't do it and then that that them saying you can't do it is just getting promulgated on the uh on on the on the on the web and and by people.
+
+[35:47] I mean I don't really understand any other sort of argument. I would love to hear from somebody what that argument is, but I haven't heard uh I haven't heard any good reasons. Yeah. Um th thanks for the mention last time on uh heritage radio. So our Namiku is actually 750 watts.
+
+[36:13] And uh some people have been saying oh that you know that's too low, whatever. But then I think I think for the purpose of um maintaining perfect temperatures I think seven hundred and fifty watts is way more than enough. What do you think? Well that was the one question I had when I talked about it uh on the air was uh I mean like what was the reason you went seven fifty instead of the full thousand that uh most of the other companies are using well that's just the uh uh the type of heaters that we're using and um for for the size that we're able to get it down to um we we've matched it up with seven hundred fifty watts. We've had some uh one thousand watts prototype however but um it doesn't it doesn't make it doesn't make much of a difference like how fast like you can you can heat the water.
+
+[37:00] Well what size bath were you testing on the relatively the same uh just just the re regular um I think the twelve twelve liter like fence yeah I mean the the ones where like the you know the the the the thousand watt uh circulators start crapping out uh any time you go above a normal full size lexan uh and then they start they start sucking wind. Um so I mean I I think it what just what you're doing by any by you know any sort of power limitation what you're doing is you're you're m um you're you're just uh capping the upper size of the water bath that you can reliably heat with it. Um you're also capping the recovery rate of it when you drop a large uh food load into it. So the for instance you know you you simply can't maintain easily any temperature it also depends on the temperatures you're trying to get to. It's a lot easier to get uh you know a water bath up to fifty five Celsius let's say than it is to get a water bath up to eighty five Celsius let's say because you're there's a lot more losses to the atmosphere because you the water wants to go off uh a lot more as vapor at those temperatures and so you're having to put a lot more energy in you're getting you know you know it's proportionally uh a higher temperature relative to ambient and so you have to drive it harder because you have higher heat losses out of your out of your uh your vessel so um a normal thousand watt circulator in a in a large lexan that's you know uh higher than the one that I normally recommend, I can't really get it to go above about fifty-five, and I can't ha it doesn't really drive an accurate temperature at those levels.
+
+[38:53] Uh you know, when you drop big loads into them, and so I only recommend using giant bass like that with a circulator for reheat where the temperature isn't as accurate, uh the temperature uh the need for accuracy isn't as high. So i you know, if you were cooking a smaller uh in a smaller vessel, like a half lexan, let's say, then I'm sure 750 watts is fine. But uh my question would be is is like how would a 750 perform in a full size lexan versus a thousand watt? I don't know. I've never I've never done it.
+
+[39:26] You know what I mean? So I can't tell you. Um I mean, but th those are just my concerns. I would bet for the for ninety percent of the people, if you were gonna work at home, very few people at home need to drive anything bigger than a half lexan. Right.
+
+[39:41] And and that and that's correct. That's why that's why we've designed the Namiku to um work with you know pots of any size from uh three quarts and up. So we we actually uh that was the the size that we had in mind and um seven hundred and fifty watts is more than adequate for those purposes. You know, anything anything bigger than um than the the lex band, then you know you're going uh a little bit overboard. Well for for for a house, yeah.
+
+[40:09] I mean you know you by the way, we pop w uh it you know you're in Bangkok now, right? Uh no, I actually I'm in San Francisco. I think uh and you're coming here soon. Yeah, yeah, I am. But I might not be able to do that.
+
+[40:22] So uh we we've We because Weepop is a product designer, but also went to the French Culinary Institute and and worked with us. So he knows that we can over st very easily overstuff a full size Lexan, but this isn't designed for that, it's designed for people at home, right? Right. So when are you gonna get one for uh for us to play with? Uh as soon as possible.
+
+[40:45] Uh we're about we're about to go into um production in China. I leave uh I leave San Francisco on August first and uh we'll we'll be in China for a long time until um we'll we'll supervise everything until delivery, basically. All right, well well listen, congratulations on the new product, and I might just miss you. I think I fly out when you fly when you fly back. When you get back in the country, uh you know, come and come and say howdy.
+
+[41:10] We love we love ourselves some weepop. We will. Yeah. But yeah, for for anyone out there who's never been to a Booker and Dyke Staves bar um in New York City, you need to go. Because not only not only that um the cocktails are amazing, if you take your dates there, it's gonna feel the deal.
+
+[41:29] Uh uh. Hey, check this out. We for those of you that don't know, Weepop was our very first caller ever into the radio show. Ever. Is that true?
+
+[41:37] And yeah, We Pop, very first caller of all times. And uh from Bangkok, by the way, and uh and you know, uh for those of you that go to the bar, we have uh uh Thai basil drink on the menu, but I don't know why they call it Thai basil, because you know we're actually gonna make a holy basil uh drink uh coming up soon, because we have a a regular Italian glove style basil drink that we really like, but we don't want to put two basil drinks on the menu? Because that's weird. But if we put three basilics on, and it turns out Nastasha grows a boatload of holy basil in in her backyard. What about that, We Pop?
+
+[42:10] That that sounds great. Yeah. We're just gonna call the drink Holy Basil. Holy Basil. That's what we're gonna call the drink.
+
+[42:17] What do you think? Sounds good, right? I don't know what's in it yet. We gotta get the basil and play around with it, but it's gonna be there. Don't worry about it.
+
+[42:22] We're gonna have like we're gonna have three basil drinks. We're gonna go basil crazy for the uh for the midsummer push. All basil all the time. Anyway. Alright, we pop, listen.
+
+[42:36] Have a good time in China building your product. We can't wait. Congratulations on the new venture. Alright, thank you so much. Bye.
+
+[42:42] Alrighty. Alright, so let's take one more quick break and come back with a little more cooking issues. It's from Bushwick Block Party on Saturday, July 28th, from noon to midnight. Saturday! Saturday!
+
+[43:00] Saturday! Savano! Sabano! Sabano! Saturday, July 28th!
+
+[43:04] It's a party in the street! Yes, I in la calle! La musica! Soft spa! Cookies!
+
+[43:11] Silicone sister! No use natural child! Tournament! MC Todd Experience featuring Bill Breezy, Sam Weiss, and Boston's best hip hop group, Gray Sky Appeal. Gang sign Wild Jack!
+
+[43:26] No! Solo performances by Team the Scott Ricard! Andrew WK! In the Roberta's Garden! Exclusive Tiki Disco!
+
+[43:36] DJ! Ali Escobar! Night Show! Sussman! Ryan Slack!
+
+[43:45] Death Killer! Still came back. Served by Smash! We drink just the bikini contest! Falls!
+
+[43:53] Komida! Momo Cafe Arma Heritage Foods Let's Arancini Brothers Imperial Woodpecker Snowball. Deserved by KDP. He robins! Sponsored by Spanish Vitamin One!
+
+[44:11] Want Con Food! Fans! Martin Greenfield Globier! Momo Susie Shack! Roberto!
+
+[44:18] Death Killers of Bushwick! Green Fitness! Heritage Radio Network Dot! Bang Drag! Dr.
+
+[44:27] Bobby Buka, Dermatology! Jelly Gen Young! Pizza from 12 to 2 while supplies last minute to one margarita pizza per person. Acoustic performances from Dear Old Pells and free advice. No shark can be harmed in making this block party.
+
+[44:39] Possible performance from Joe Bishop. Oh, Bishop. Somehow some weird thing happened with the phone guys was going, sorry, Dokes out there. Must have been that block party commercial. Hey, we've only got a few minutes left, Dave.
+
+[44:50] We got a one o'clock, so. Alright, cool. So uh I only have one last question, so I'll take it right now. Uh Brian writes in Hi guys, gals. I saw on Starshef that you guys use grade C maple syrup at the bar.
+
+[45:02] What does it taste like? I want the smokiest, earthiest, funkiest mushroomy syrup that there is. When I googled around buying some, I saw that it's only for commercial applications. I also saw that they may have changed the rating system so that grade C is now grade B. Also the Canadian rating system is different.
+
+[45:19] What's the and where can I get it? Thanks again, Brian. All right, Brian. Uh, what I did was I called up the maple syrup uh producer and said, Hey, listen, can I have some grade C uh maple syrup? I know you have it.
+
+[45:35] And he said, All right, don't tell anyone, uh, because I guess he didn't have a label for it or whatever. A poured it into a quart, you know, container, uh, you know, a quart uh maple syrup container, just slap two B's on it, which was the code for C grade, and uh, and and I bought it at the at the regular price. Now, uh, those of you that didn't hear anything before that we say the C-grade maple syrup is basically uh maple syrup when it starts its rhyme at the beginning of the season is the lightest and kind of least uh has the least conjunctor, the least kind of flavor in it, and then as the season progresses, it gets more and more conjuncts and gets darker and has uh kind of more and more different different flavors. I like the grade C but it can be a little weird. It doesn't necessarily play nice uh with other ingredients the way uh that B does.
+
+[46:28] I mean, I've I I use B in cooking at home, I use B on pancakes, uh, I use B in drinks, and I think every bartender I know uses B in drinks. Uh C was a little rough on some of the drinks that we tried it out. I like it. It's really intense, but it can almost go metallic in certain uh in certain applications. But it's definitely something you should try to uh have around.
+
+[46:54] And uh hopefully that helps. This has been cooking issues. Oh, you got me on the screen. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[47:33] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:29] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Joined in the theater. Theater, huh? Theater. Theater box.
+
+[0:42] In the in the containerized box. In the uh back of a bird's pizzeria with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasha? Good, how are you? And Jack and Joe in the engineering room.
+
+[0:52] How are you doing, guys? Hey. Uh okay, first of all, a a thank you. A thank you. Uh uh, I'm gonna Michael, I'm gonna call you Mike.
+
+[1:01] I'm gonna butcher your last name. Does anyone here know how to pronounce I'm terrible at pronouncing? So I was gonna call you Michael. I don't want to destroy your last name. Okay, here's I'm gonna try it anyway.
+
+[1:11] Sizuski. Sizuski? What do you think? Let's hope so. Stas, right?
+
+[1:16] Especially because so nice. Sent me us a copy of uh Fuchsia Dunlop's book, A Land of Plenty, A Treasury of Authentic Sichuan Cuisine. A book, by the way, which I do not own, even though I've been meaning to get some Fuchsia Dunlop books because uh she was recommended to us by uh our good friend Harold McGee. Because she uh showed him around uh various places in China when he was there. Anyway, he writes, uh, thank you for answering my questions on seasoning pans.
+
+[1:42] Enjoy the Dunlop. It is a great book about my favorite type of Chinese food. Thanks for all the effort you put into the podcast, Mike. Very nice. Nice.
+
+[1:48] Very nice. Thank you. Alright. Now, uh, a Twitter question I missed from last week from uh Barry uh Moncasey. I hope.
+
+[1:58] Again, with me with the pronunciation, I should just never pronounce the name. Hey, listen, when you're writing something in, uh, even if your name is Smith, assume I don't know how to pronounce it and just put a little pronunciation guide next to it. Am I right or wrong? Because I'm a moron. True?
+
+[2:09] True. Uh anyway. Uh the question was uh tweeted in clearly over clearly overcooking a shrimp boil. Uh everything's abbreviated because it's Twitter. Uh uh shrimp, sausage, corn, potato, onion, uh, garlic, and zetteran's spice.
+
+[2:25] Uh question was perfect sous vide uh recipe or timing. Okay. Uh I'm interpreting this question to mean that whenever you cook shrimps, the shrimp boil, you're overcooking the hell out of the shrimp, uh, which is definitely the case, probably. I mean, definitely the case. Um I'm assuming that you're not overcooking by too much uh your sausage, uh, your corn, uh, your onion or potato.
+
+[2:47] Uh, and you're definitely not overcooking your Zataran spices, my guess. But uh I am not a huge fan of uh low temperature shellfish unless they are post-finished. Now, usually, let's say I was gonna cook a lobster or a shrimp. Anytime you're gonna cook a shellfish, you don't want to cook it for too long. Because if you cook it for too long, even at a very low temperature, uh the enzymes in it keep working, especially at a low temperature, actually.
+
+[3:12] The enzymes keep working and they turn mushy. In some cases, they can almost turn to a paste. And it's the most revolting paste that you've ever put in your mouth. In fact, you feel like you have to spit it out. Now, it doesn't always happen, and I can't I haven't figured out yet why sometimes shrimp has this enzyme in it that does that to it, and sometimes it doesn't.
+
+[3:31] Maybe someone out there knows why it's uh a variable situation. However, I actually prefer uh when things uh shellfish are cooked, not overcooked necessarily, but cooked at a higher temperature and have that slight springiness to them, but don't uh but you know aren't over aren't totally overdone. Uh lobster, the way you would cook a lobster, let's say, so I assume shrimp is somewhat similar, uh low temperature, is usually you would put it into a bath of uh butter uh at roughly uh 60 degrees Celsius for roughly this is after you've taken the tail meat out. Uh you put it on a skewer and you put it in there roughly 10 minutes. So that's what you're looking at for low temperature.
+
+[4:12] But the texture of it is always very, very soft. And uh I actually like a little more bite to my um lobster than that. Now, on shrimp, what I typically do uh whenever I'm doing uh kind of boiled things with shrimps is I'll uh rip off the shells and and heads uh and I will roast roast them to get some flavor and then infuse them into the soup base separately, pull them and discard them separately, like you know, basically grill cook the shrimp uh at a high temperature until it's just done, and then at the very end, as I'm putting the soup out, I will fold it back in. That way I get the maximum flavor from the shells and whatnot into the although a lot of the really thin shell shrimp we get, there's not as much flavor in the shells as you'd like, but you get the flavor from that in your into your uh into your soup base, and you don't uh viciously overcook the shrimp. On the sausage, I usually recommend cooking my sausage at 60 degrees Celsius, and you can cook that in a bag and then post chop it up and fold it in later.
+
+[5:16] You're not gonna get then any flavor of that sausage into the stock, so you might want to reinforce the stock with uh some other flavors if you're gonna do it that way. But the best way usually to handle it, because none of those ingredients cook properly at the same temperature, the potato is gonna need to be at least above 85 Celsius for a pretty uh you know long length of time to for it to cook out properly. Or not really 85, whatever, whatever. Yes, about that. Uh, an onion definitely above 85 Celsius for a good length of time to cook.
+
+[5:42] And so none of these things want to cook at the same temperature. So typically I cook them individually, add the flavor to the stock in layers and recombine at the end. And I do that all the time with any sort of uh so if you like when you're making like uh oh my god, the name's gone out of my head. The uh the soup that uh is from uh the soup that like bully-based uh spicy bully based with sausage with garlic bread in it from San Francisco. Anyone, anyone, anyone?
+
+[6:06] No. Oh my god, sounds like almost like the Italian word for onion, Cupino. Uh yeah, so uh when I make Capino, I I cook everything separately, you know, and make a stock basically from the bones and the drippings from the juice after I steam out, I'll steam out like all of the um you know mussels and shellfish and whatnot, save the steaming juices, uh make a stock with the fish bones, cook the stuff, and then recombine it all at the end. And that's always been the best way I get the maximum flavor and nothing's overcooked. What do you think?
+
+[6:33] That's good. Good. All right. Hey Dave and group and group, group, uh from Matt. I recently have made two dishes in my pressure cooker.
+
+[6:42] One was a chicken stock based on Hessen Blumenthal's recipe. Hessen Blumenthal recommends uh finely chopping up the chicken pieces and then either deep frying, I think, or roasting. I haven't actually read it, but this is my is my impression of it. Uh, and then pressure cooking that uh for I think quite a long time. Um of course he doesn't mention it in the book, but I looked at the pictures of it and he recommends using a coon recon pressure cooker, which it visually he recommends it, uh i.e.
+
+[7:08] that's what he uses, uh, because it's non-venting. Uh, if you go back on the cooking issues blog back to you know 2009 or whatever, you know, I wrote a bunch of posts or one, two posts on why I think that's very important that your pressure cooker not be venting out when you're making stocks, because the stocks from a pressure cooker that allows steam to escape tend to not taste as good, in uh in my opinion. Uh okay. Uh one was a chicken stock based on Heston Blumenthal's recipe, and the other was octopus based on her web recipe. In both cases, when I removed the lid, the smell was less than appetizing.
+
+[7:38] I don't know if I would call it a sulfur smell, but in uh but in that family, in the sulfur family. My wife had thought the chicken had gone bad, but it smelled fine when I put it into the pot. I thought it was maybe uh sulfur from the onions or garlic, but then I did it with the octopus and got the same result. For the octopus, I used water, salt, paprika, and pressure cooked for 45 minutes. Uh I know there was no onion, and I don't think I used garlic.
+
+[8:00] Also, I've done tons of meat with onion and garlic in the past and never had any problems. Any thoughts on what's causing the odor? Okay, it's definitely not the onion. In fact, uh onions are almost completely deodorized by pressure cooking and um and looking behind it, by the way, with these kinds of things, authors in the past, uh notably Julia Child in uh Mastering the Art of French Cooking, has uh notes on the pressure cooker that says she doesn't like certain things in the pressure cooker, pressure cooked stock is one of them because she says that it has a pressure cooked taste. Uh going back and you know reviewing what she's doing, I don't think what she's talking about is what you're talking about.
+
+[8:35] I think for her, like part of the problem is is that uh as anyone who cooks a lot in the pressure cooker knows, especially stocks, you need to double and triple the onions in the recipe because they're just not going to come through uh as much, or add some at the end after it's been uncapped. She also probably didn't take into account the fact that there's very little to no reduction on the inside of a pressure cooker, so she has all of her stocks uncapped and then simmered afterwards open for another hour or so to get the flavor where she thinks they should be for uh for a normal stock. So I'm not discounting Julie Child because of course Julie Child, you know, no one ever discounts anything Julia Child says that's be crazy. That's like you know culinary suicide to discount Julie Child. But uh I'm gonna have to say that I'm not sure that her uh opinion is necessarily well taken on pressure cookers.
+
+[9:20] Now I've never had what you're describing uh happen in a chicken stock. My question is did the did all of the giblets go in? Maybe you're getting an effect with the liver cooking for a long time in the pressure cooker. I don't know. Uh it's that's never happened to me.
+
+[9:34] I've never gotten an off flavor from a chicken stock. I will say that I do not cook chicken stock as long in the pressure cooker as many other people do. At home I actually only cook it for about 25 minutes at 15 PSI or both rings but uh at the school when I was running uh the tests we were doing it 45 minutes. I know people are cooking it a lot longer. And I think uh going back to your octopus that the main problem on your octopus might be the length of time you're cooking.
+
+[10:03] Most of the recipes that I've seen uh have the octopus only cooking for uh twenty to thirty minutes. I think if you overcook it too long you might be creating some flavors in there that otherwise wouldn't be there. Uh uh otherwise I can't explain uh what's what's going on there. But it's definitely not the um it's not the onion it's not onion or garlic. If anyone out there has an experience with this and knows what we're talking about and is and has experienced this kind of off flavor I'd really appreciate you writing or tweeting in and saying what's going on because um I'd love to solve this problem.
+
+[10:36] Uh sorry, Matt that I don't have anything more dis uh definitive to say, but uh there it is. Okay. Um Jack, you want to go to our first commercial break? Uh yes. All right, here we go.
+
+[10:46] Call back with cooking issues. With Ocode How. You betcha and how I'm pow. We're fooling around all over this town. I'm pow.
+
+[11:06] I'm pow with shooting dice, cause it's a vice. Our late each night. And that's not right. So I'm pow with Wahina's two. Believe me, it's true.
+
+[11:22] At Whole Foods Market, we believe in healthy snacking, eating our veggies, and supporting local. Check out Brad's Raw Chips, a local producer that created irresistible chips after their namesake's successful weight loss with a raw lifestyle. Their chips are gluten-free, nutrient-packed, and so good that you'll think you're indulging. For more information, visit Brad's Rawchips.com. So the music is the song is called I'm Pow from a band called Plexophonic, who uh mailed us their CD after hearing me talk about original music on cooking issues.
+
+[12:05] So we got the CD mailed to us in the office with a nice note that he's a longtime listener, and that's his band. Nice. Plexifhonic? Yeah, pretty good, right? Yeah, I like that.
+
+[12:14] We'll play some other stuff from that. Yeah. Plexophonic. Plexiphonic. Right?
+
+[12:18] I got that. Yeah. I got a Twitter question in also, by the way. What do you got? We've got uh from Danny Combs.
+
+[12:25] I think I pronounced that right. Um trying to make an extremely thick simple syrup, glucose syrup thick for his bartender, and it keeps crystallizing. Any suggestions? Yeah, it's very, very difficult to make simple syrups with sugar that are as thick as glucose syrup. In fact, um for several reasons.
+
+[12:44] One, uh the glucose uh inherently doesn't form crystals as much as sucrose does, right? So right off there, you know, you're off the bat, you've got issues. Secondly, uh there are uh other things in there, dextrins and maltextrins in glucose uh syrup that are adding to the um uh thickness of it, but uh aren't going to form crystals. So you're kind of shafted two ways there. Uh glucose syrup, uh if my memory serves me, is uh a guy of bricks in the area of about 80%, meaning glucose syrup is about 80% solid, which is hard freaking core.
+
+[13:21] Uh you know, I typically when you make a rich simple syrup, when you make a two to one simple syrup, you're talking about a bricks of about sixty-six, right? Uh regular one-to-one simple syrup is a bricks duh of fifty if you do it by weight, which is how we do it. Uh, even at a mere 66 bricks, right, which is a two to one simple syrup, it can start forming some crystals eventually in it. Uh you might be able to push that up a little higher, 70 or so, but you're not going to get much higher than that using sucrose. Uh you could use uh an invert, like a tremoline, which will have roughly similar sweetening properties to it and get the sugar content that high, but not with uh, you know, regular Domino's uh sugar that you have uh on well, I'm not pumping the Domino's brand, but you know what I mean, regular beet or cane sucrose that you have sitting on the shelf.
+
+[14:14] Uh you could attempt to invert it yourself by long cooking, but in general, then you're gonna have problems with uh turning brown and all this. So i I think you're kind of in for a world of hurt trying to get that. You could artificially thicken it with um thickeners, but then it's going to have that artificial thickener. And so the question is why do you want it to be that thick? If you just want it to be much sweeter without adding water, I think you're gonna be SOL.
+
+[14:39] Uh another alternative, I mean, the glucose syrup isn't very sweet. Uh you know, uh none of those things are really. I mean, uh they're really, really thick. I'd have to know why you wanted it thick to recommend a way to do it. But you're not gonna get a regular 100% sucrose syrup that thick without it crystallizing out.
+
+[14:57] Just will not happen, uh, in my opinion. Someone call me in and tell me that uh I'm wrong. Oh, speaking of calling in, call your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Is that right?
+
+[15:09] Yeah. Okay. Uh all right. So uh going back to our questions. Uh hey, Dave, Nastasha, Jack and Joe.
+
+[15:20] Curious, uh, from behind Wall Street Journal's uh paywall, which I guess I mean they illegally sent it to me. Well, or they paid for it, so it's not easy. They're just asking me a question. I'm not calling this person out. It's from Steve.
+
+[15:29] Uh he says, a professor is trying to use distiller's grain as a healthy food additive, although I don't know how healthy it is. My understanding is most of it's mostly fiber remnants from grains. I'm against ethanol from grain, but if it's created, it may be good to find a variety of uses, or perhaps it's a fooled fool's errand. Also, uh, and this is the this is the opinion of Steve, and not necessarily the opinion of anyone here. Uh Arthur Daniel uh ADM is uh the devil incarnate.
+
+[15:55] What do you think about that, Jack? You hate that. You hate the ADM, right? What's that? Archer Daniel Mid Midlands or however you pronounce it.
+
+[16:01] You hate are you pro again? They're the devil incarnate, according to Steve. I have no comment. I have no comment because I don't want anyone knocking on my door and putting a bullet in my head. Uh I'm kidding.
+
+[16:11] They don't do that. They don't they don't I don't think. I don't know. Anyway. Uh thanks for your great program, by the way.
+
+[16:16] I can never listen live, so the podcast come in handy. Okay, so from the article, basically the the story is that when you're distilling uh anything from anything, you have uh left over after the fermentation and boiling process, you have whatever you had left. So if it's grain, it's grain. If it's spent uh grape, you know, whatever it's spent if you're doing brandy, it's it's that. So uh uh you there's all this stuff left over.
+
+[16:42] Uh now what are you gonna do with it? You don't want to just throw it away because that's a waste. You paid for the grain or whatever, and so now you have to do something with the leftovers, otherwise you're you're a moron from an economic standpoint. Now I've actually tasted uh directly wet distiller's grain uh spent from uh the production of makers uh mark bourbon, and I thought it was pretty good actually, because it's got a weird little kind of a a funky flavor to it, but uh that's not what what it doesn't get served to people. Typically, what happens is is it gets sent to livestock for the livestock to uh to gr to grow on uh because it's cheap.
+
+[17:18] Uh it's basically a byproduct, and if you feed it to something to make meat out of it, then win win. Okay. But in this article on Wall Street Journal, this uh guy, a Mr. Uh Krishnan, uh his whole idea is he wants to send he wants to use these things in human food products. Uh but what he's doing is basically what everyone does when they have a cheap food product is they try to make it as bland and tasteless as possible so they can jack it into foods without you noticing.
+
+[17:45] Uh in other words, here's what he says. Uh literally, this is a quote from him. If I can make it bland, then I can do lots of tricks, he says. He then tests uh how much regular flour, this is directly from the article. He tests how much regular flour he can replace.
+
+[17:59] If I put too much in there, he says, it'll be a brick. Uh and cookies, uh, don't go beyond seven percent. Chocolate chips come in handy too. I can hide anything if I have enough chocolate, he says. Uh, and that just goes to show you I mean, anyone who knows me knows what I'm gonna say right away based on what he says, which is if you're adding something because you want to save a nickel and jack food with it, then I think you're you're doing some bad stuff to food, right?
+
+[18:26] Now, theoretically you can make some argument that it's not basically it's it's it there's a lot, there's protein. There's a lot of protein in spent grains and a lot of fiber. So if you're having problems with the pooper and you need a lot of extra fiber in there, or if you're the one American uh who can afford to buy cookies that are jacked with uh uh you know, dispen uh spent distiller's grain and also has a protein deficiency, right? Because I doubt that the that the loads and loads of hungry, which there are many hungry people in the United States, people tend to forget this, a lot of hungry children in the in the United States especially, which is horribly sad. Uh I don't think those are the people who are gonna be able to afford to go get uh, you know, cookies that are jacked up with uh with spent grain.
+
+[19:08] Do you think, Stuzz? No. Yeah. So uh that could be wrong. Uh and also like it seems kind of gr even if it was that, it seems kind of gross to be like, hey, look, I'm gonna make these cheap cookies for these kids that don't have nothing to eat, and so what I'm gonna do is jack it with stuff that nobody wants.
+
+[19:22] Does that seem right or wrong? Seems wrong. Uh I mean, just from a mental note, it seems wrong. Uh anyway, so right there I'm saying uh this is not something that I'm hyper interested in. Um the I mean, as as a feed for cattle, uh, it seems like it it's fine.
+
+[19:38] Uh I was doing some research on it, and uh there's basically they either dry it out uh and use it that way because it keeps a lot longer, or if you live very close to where a distillery is, you can feed them the wet product. Uh and it's fed typically uh in in areas of like 10 to 20 percent of the total uh ration based on dry matter. This is according to uh KS grains and their DDGSF, which is uh dry distiller grain uh fact sheet. Uh and it basically they say that at those levels it doesn't make the meat taste like crap, i.e. they can't tell the difference, uh, and it can be uh economical.
+
+[20:15] Um and so basically how much of it's used is directly tied to whatever the current price of corn is. So as corn prices go up, uh the uh use of this stuff is gonna go up as well because it's we're gonna make it anyway. Now uh heh, the other thing that's useful for in feeding cattle is to prevent uh or to help prevent uh acidosis, which is a system uh where you you're not supposed cows aren't supposed to eat bay basically hugely carbohydrate rich uh diets all the time. And if they do, it can throw off their uh their rumen and basically eat eat away the lining of their rumen with the pH of their system gets messed up and uh and then uh well it's terrible. You can't cure you're they're done.
+
+[20:53] It's nightmare. So anyway, so feeding them this, which is lower in carbohydrate can help reduce that apparently. Now uh one thing I will say uh and and uh you know uh about this, and again, like what this guy is doing in this article is is is basically totally removing all of the uh aroma and flavor, which I actually think is quite interesting. If if you were gonna do something with spent grain, spent distiller's grain, what you should do is taste it and say, hey, this has a flavor, this has an aroma. What the hell would this taste good in?
+
+[21:23] I mean, that's what you should be doing. Of course, then you'll never soak up the eight billion pounds of the stuff or whatever it is that we make from uh fermenting ethanol. And I'm sure that most of the stuff that's made isn't made at the same quality as maker's mark, and so tastes like like behind. You know what I mean? And so if you're dealing with stuff that's poorly made, then uh there's not much use for it.
+
+[21:42] You know what I mean? Like uh I mean I'm sure I could find good uses for makersmark's grain or any one of the other distillers who we like uh their their grain. Uh but these guys have to totally de aromatize it with a bunch of different procedures. Now, uh going back it whenever I want to know what animal what feed stocks do to animals, traditional feedstocks do to animals, I turned to uh William Ewat, who was writing in the mid-1800s uh and wrote one of my favorite books of all time, and you can get it on the Google books, uh, and it's called the hog. And in other editions, it's called the pig.
+
+[22:16] I'm using the hog, the 1865 edition. If you go through it, he lists all of the feedstocks that were available to feed pigs at the time, and any time you had a bunch of less crap left over, one of the things you would do to it is feed it to pigs to make meat out of it. And uh what he says is, and certain things obviously are are delicious, acorns and whatnot, uh, but he says uh the refuse, this is from the 1865 edition, the refuse wash and grains and other residue of breweries and distilleries may also be given to swine with advantage and seem to induce an intensity to lay on uh to to induce a tendency to lay on flesh, but you must not do it in too large a quantities or unmixed uh without uh other more substantial food, as although they gain flesh rapidly, when fed uh on this alone, the meat is not firm. So you ought in the eighteen hundreds, and you know, you take it with a grain of salt, uh, but you what apparently was well known back in the day that if you fattened too much on these spent grains, that yes they fattened up, but the meat didn't taste as good as it otherwise would. So uh so there there you have it.
+
+[23:22] There you have it. Um should I take one more question before we go to a break, or do you want me to uh go to another break? Uh yeah, we got some tweets too, whenever you're ready. All right, give me a tweet, and then we'll go to break. I'll give you a tweet.
+
+[23:32] Once I zested this is from Andrew Switzer. Once I zested some lemon limes and oranges, I forgot about them for two weeks and cut them to find them extremely sweet. I have not been able to replicate this. Any idea what happened? The lime specifically tasted pure sweet with no acidity.
+
+[23:47] Wait, now the lime itself or the zest? Wait, he zested the lime. He doesn't know what happened. Huh. And it was I I'm I am baffled.
+
+[24:02] I I I am baffled because citric acid, uh, you know, so let's take the lemons. Okay, lemons, the main acidity in them is citric acid. Uh it should not uh it should not go away. It should not volatilize, neither should it be broken down. Uh the same goes in limes, which is a combination of malic acid and citric acid and succinic acid, uh not in that order.
+
+[24:28] Uh and those should not break down. Uh it's well known that acidity decreases in apples on storage, but I haven't read anything about uh increasing the availability of air to the inside of fruit on a lemon or a lime, causing the acidity to go down. Now, if you happen to be in an area that's growing, there are lemons and limes that are sweet, but I'm assuming that if you had picked it off of a tree of unknown provenance that you would have said something like, I picked this lime and lemon off of a tree of unknown provenance, in which case you might have gotten one of the rare and I think insipids. And Stash, you didn't like those, right? The sweet limes and sweet lemons?
+
+[25:04] No, no. They're kind of weak, right? Because they didn't have as much power as like an orange has. You know what I mean? Flavor wise.
+
+[25:10] Which is weird because like here they're my favorite citrus fruits, and all of a sudden you take away the acid and they're uh so I'm extremely curious. I'm gonna have to do some research on that and see whether or not I can figure anything out. But no, I have no explanation for it. All right, well, we have one more quick question. It's not really a question.
+
+[25:26] So this is from Landon Young, gonna be in New York City in a few weeks. Restaurant suggestions near LaGuardia. And then with the hashtag awaiting second coming of Indy Jesus. Uh aren't we all? Aren't we all?
+
+[25:40] Really. Aren't we all? Uh wow, near LaGuardia. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah.
+
+[25:45] Well, what is that near? What's the now I uh I have to be honest. Now there's there's there's uh there's two kinds of people. There's people who actually explore what what we Manhattan people call somewhat pejoratively the outer burrows. And then there are other people.
+
+[26:00] Uh I don't I mean like I basically, and this is gonna sound really it's it's just because my son does not like getting on subway trains in the weekend, but I do not uh which is strange considering that he is obsessed with subways. But I very, very rarely, with the exception of Roberta's Pizzeria, get to eat in the outer burrows very often. So I don't really know much around. What do you got? Jackson Diner in Jackson Heights.
+
+[26:23] It's uh Is that close to LaGuardia? Yeah, it's relatively close. So says my map here. Well, that entire neighborhood is is world renowned for having in interesting uh uh ethnic foods of uh you know and that that Jackson Diner has been famous for many, many, many years. Uh I just didn't know it was close to LaGuardia.
+
+[26:41] Seems like it. Yeah. That whole neighborhood, if you just search that that neighborhood on uh Jackson, uh there's a zillion blog posts on that whole neighborhood and every everything uh everything going on in it, and uh and that the one that Jack just mentioned, particularly famous, but Google around in there. Nastash, you ever eat out there? No.
+
+[27:00] Th the some of the restaurants in LaGuardia are pretty good. Come on. Seriously. Which one? Come on.
+
+[27:07] Um, I don't remember the name, but it was it was really good. She's like, that was the best blueberry muffin that'd been wrapped two weeks ago I ever had in my whole life. Is it Sabaros? Shut up, Jack. All right, and with that, we will go to our second commercial break.
+
+[27:25] I wish that I were twins. You grip big baby kins. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have four loving arms to embrace you. Four eyes to idolise you each time I face this one's I Wish We Were Twins by Plexophonic.
+
+[27:44] What couldn't four lips do? When fault is you say that I'm yours, dad. I wish that I were twins. You great big baby kins. So I could love you twice as much as I do.
+
+[28:05] This is Brandon Hoy, co owner of Roberta's, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Donate, donate, donate, donate. It's for a good cause, man. Heritage Radio. Super awesome dudes.
+
+[28:17] Snacky tunes. And that other show where dudes get drunk. I love Nicole Taylor. Hot Grease. Dave Arnold, Cooking Issues.
+
+[28:25] Farm Report. Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick. Patrick Morton. Listen to the radio because it's better than the TV, because it doesn't have pictures to distract you. Learn about food.
+
+[28:35] Donate at Heritage Radio Network dot or I like that. What why don't we get the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday monster truck effects? Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. I can do that. You might get a surprise next week.
+
+[28:50] Alright. I love I mean, like if there look, I never actually is that true? Have I ever been to a monster truck rally? I don't feel like I need to because I saw the commercials growing up so much when I was a kid that like, you know, that's that's all I needed. Everything I needed was there, and the and you know, and the and the and the seeing the truck like crush the other truck on the advertisement was I didn't feel like I needed to see it in the real life.
+
+[29:09] Have you ever been to a monster truck rally? Any of you guys ever been to a monster truck rally? I have, yeah, when I was a kid in Long Island Out East. Was it awesome? I I mean I was a small kid.
+
+[29:17] I remember it feeling awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It may have not been awesome though. I think maybe the reason was I saw like a televised monster truck rally once, and there was two monster trucks, and the idea for those of you that have never left your house is that monster trucks they they have giant, giant wheels, and they roll over other cars and crush those other cars.
+
+[29:35] And so they basically they they they try to race each other over a bunch of cars that they crush to the finish line. And uh and they also do things like pull each other and things like that. But uh, I've watched on TV, super excited, and uh neither truck actually finished the race because both of them either one flipped over and the other wheel fell off. Like they none of them made it over. So it was kind of like a want worm.
+
+[29:56] Maybe that's what uh soured me to the whole thing. Even cooler yet, when I was a kid, we I I saw a demolition derby, they called it, which essentially. Oh man, I've always wanted to go to a demolition derby. So cool. We should, you know, that would be a fundraiser.
+
+[30:09] What if Roberta's we all got a bunch of cars for like a hundred and fifty dollars, filled the sides with concrete, and had a like a heritage radio, Harris Radio Demolition Derby. I have a ninety six Nissan Censure I'm willing to donate for that event. Yeah? I mean, I'm uh that would like that's like a lifelong dream to be in a demolition derby. Oh man.
+
+[30:27] It's so baller. We we have a collar, by the way. Oh, all right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Uh this is Marv Woodhouse calling from Wuppethal in Germany.
+
+[30:36] So uh I'm quite stoked to actually get through to the show. Uh I had a question. Uh I have a two-year-old and four-year-old uh child who are getting increasingly fussy about food. What do you feed your kids? Oh, oh my God.
+
+[30:50] You know what? This is like this is i i it's like it's it's like your kids learn whatever they can to punish you, right? And it it's like, you know, if you eat everything and try to serve them everything, then they will go the exact opposite direction. I end up having to I have a we have a a couple I have a couple of problems with it. One is that my cooking time with during the week is limited to roughly 15 to 20 minutes a night.
+
+[31:15] And so I have the added problem of it has to be quick. Uh I also have the the issue of like like the the the pitched battles that uh you know that you get into over food, but you know, like you know, you you do something you think they're gonna think is delicious, like cauliflower because it's not green, because for some reason, as soon as kids start hanging out with other kids, everyone gets together and has some sort of pow wow about how green vegetables are disgusting. So you're like, okay, I'll get you this cauliflower and I'll dump cheese sauce over it, which is universally and inherently delicious, and then yet you get this pitched screaming battle, which is impossible to to understand. So my c all my kids want to eat is steak, hot dogs, and hamburgers. And so you have to filter that through, and which is weird because before my older son Booker was uh when he was, you know, three and four and below, would eat anything like fistfuls of capers, olives.
+
+[32:09] Uh you know, I I I end up having them to sneak sneak things and then they end up liking it. Like for some reason they've they've developed uh a like for uh squid, you know. Uh yeah, uh initially you have to like fudge it with them a little bit. I'm I'm very, very much against lying to adults about what's in food and we'll get to that later. But uh with your kids, I think it's kind of an obligation to lie to them and then shame them later into uh you know, in in into eating.
+
+[32:35] Otherwise they're just, you know, all they want is you know, kasukai gummy candies and uh and uh hot dogs. Yeah, we have a problem uh I mean, like you talk about steak, hot dogs and hamburgers. We have a problem that uh my kids don't really go for protein, so they would eat pasta, particularly Nockey, like five days a week. Uh if they were allowed. Uh Nokia and pesto.
+
+[32:56] Uh so can you can you think of anything that's kind of uh like just not just white carbohydrate? Because especially in Germany, they they they would uh like to eat pasta and bread. Yeah all the time. You got them hooked on the spetzel yet? Or you don't want to you don't want to get 'em hooked on another white carbohydrate.
+
+[33:15] Uh yeah, uh man. Well in Germany, you're in the so you they you can't get 'em to do you guys eat meat or no? Yeah, we yeah, we do. But but the kids don't really uh I mean they're they're digging sort of salami and stuff, but they they're not really big on like you you give them chicken and they'll kind of poke at it. What about forced?
+
+[33:35] Do they like forced or no? Uh yeah, but uh it's quite different. We we come over from Ireland and it's quite different, so that they're they're not really going for the texture of the verse because it's a lot firmer than we'd have been used to over over in uh over in the UK. Right. Uh they're different, but both delicious.
+
+[33:53] Uh because I was gonna say, like, you know, what I would typically do, like I I I I get their vegetables into my kids also eat pasta, so I usually get the vegetables into that via purees and sauces. Uh we try and watch the the the verse and the salami because like we don't want to be just feeding them salt all the time as well. That's fair. That's fair. Uh yeah, that's uh that's an interesting it's interesting problem.
+
+[34:18] Um kids are so like here's here what we do, honestly, and uh so my kids now are seven and ten, and the the deal is is uh our current mode, and I can't say whether it's any better or any worse, is we cook whatever we want for ourselves. If they eat it, they eat it. If they don't, they don't, and which is we have a no complaining rule anymore, which doesn't appear to work. But it's just we s we decide to kind of give up on what they want with the exception of two, three days a week. We'll we have like hassle-free meals and I'll make whatever it is that they that they want, assuming it's reasonable.
+
+[34:51] Uh and then the rest of the time, like i it is what it is. I try not to do anything that's gonna be overtly gonna uh uh irritate them and make them angry because that's just pushing things too far. But uh, you know, and then eventually you find like the weird stuff that like for like for like even though my older son you can't get him to eat any vegetables at all, for some reason sauerkraut, he'll pound sauerkraut like the end of the world is coming. So uh you know, fine. Here's some sauerkraut.
+
+[35:14] And he loves canned sardines, good, so do I. Here have some canned sardines. But it's only through just like uh treating them like they're gonna eat everything and and just serving them everything that they're gonna do. I haven't had as much luck, unfortunately, hiding things in other things as I would uh unless it's like you know, something that they know what it is, a squid, and they won't eat it until they've eaten it, and then you're like, you like squid, and they're like, Okay, I like squid. But they you know, that but yeah, I wish I could be more helpful.
+
+[35:42] I read something about a a pasta sauce with broccoli. Oh yeah, that's easy. If they won't eat broccoli, yeah. So uh you know, basically you just take a chicken stock, which is another meat thing there, um, and then uh you can thicken it with a roux, but it's not necessary. Uh and uh chop up uh brocc whole broccoli, including stems, chop the stems finer because uh and I also peel off the very outside that's tough on the bottom because unless you have a very good blender, it won't puree well.
+
+[36:09] Just throw all those things into the chicken stock, uh blitz them to to blend them up. Uh I usually throw in uh some chunks into the in the blender if you're blend my blender's pretty good. If it's not, you have to pre grade it of uh you know, you know, your favorite grating cheese, and uh I crack a couple of egg yolks into it to thicken it while it's hot, uh, and then toss that into uh into I usually use a thinner pasta with that because it's a really kind of creamy sauce, so I like pastas with that that are creamy, like uh Angel's hair or something like that. And then we probably try pasta. Like they reject that.
+
+[36:41] Oh well, it also will work with a shell or something like that or whatever. Although that would also work with gnocchi, but I you know I feel bad that your kids are making you make gnocchi every day. Oh no, no, this is the packet stuff, but it's not too bad. So I mean, like the fastest way to make the gnocchi is the one where you you know it's not uh traditional or authentic, but you make it a little bit looser than you normally would, put it in a pastry bag, and squeeze the pastry bag over the boiling water and cut it with a knife as it goes into the boiling water. And then you can have uh and then you know, there were there you can increase at least the potato ratio higher than you or you could you you could do whatever you want.
+
+[37:14] I mean, that was a r recipe I got in the eighties from Jacques Papin, who's that's the way he used to do it, and it's kind of no fail and much less messy way of making gnocchi than if you wanted to try and do it rather than uh uh you know, rolling on boards and all this. What do they teach you guys to do, Staz? You never uh did that with uh Chesare? No. No.
+
+[37:33] He did one with um ricotta. I'm sure that's good. Yeah, potato. I'm sure that's good. But yeah, but that's a good way to hide some chicken stock and some broccoli in their in their pasta.
+
+[37:41] And my kids actually. You can buy it in vacuum packs, uh, and and it's just brilliant because it like takes literally one and a half minutes to cook and it's ready. Oh, that's all yeah, no sweat. Uh I also tend to blend a lot of anchovies into uh sauces, and that's a way to get anchovy in there and and everyone uh it's a well known fact that everyone likes anchovies and no one thinks they do. So uh, you know, that's another good thing.
+
+[38:07] Uh that works that's not gonna work in a broccoli sauce as much because you'll notice it more, but in tomato sauces, nothing pops a tomato sauce like some anchovies. That's the one time I'm allowed to lie to my wife about what I'm putting in our food, because sh she she will not eat it if she knows anchovies are in there. Right, but they're delicious. Right, right. Like like is there any better pizza sauce than like uh like uh reduced tomatoes uh blended with anchovies in it?
+
+[38:31] No. No. It's pe pizza sauce with anchovies in it is freaking delicious. It's delicious. And yet nobody thinks they like it.
+
+[38:38] And yet it has never once been rejected when I've served it to someone. Ever. Ever. Hey, that's awesome. Oh, and by the way, you you I don't know.
+
+[38:47] Uh I sent you a message on Twitter. You you can shotgun a bottle. Yeah, that was you. How do you how so how do you shotgun the bottom? How do you get the air in?
+
+[38:54] You stick a straw in the top. And it's just as fast. It's just as fast as a can? I put a big hole in the side of a can with a key. If you put a drinking straw in the top of the bottle and then just put your mouth around the top of the bottle with the drinking straw in, it lets the air in.
+
+[39:09] Alright, well, I I I just said to someone else that I'm retired. I haven't shotgunned one in a long time. I misspent yeast. Alright, so we'll we'll we'll uh we'll we'll I guess we'll have to try it. We'll have to try it and see what happens.
+
+[39:23] Alrighty. Well, thanks for the tip. That's awesome. Okay. You got another.
+
+[39:29] Oh, uh caller, you're on the air. Hey David's up. Brian, how are you? Hey, doing all doing all right. Your cell's cutting in and out.
+
+[39:36] I'm trying to hear you. Tell tell what's going on. Okay. No. Medium.
+
+[39:42] Yeah, a little better. Okay. Um question. I tried making my own homemade fish sauce and it turned out completely putrid. First of all, so w what did I do wrong?
+
+[39:53] Um, and second, is it even worth it to even try making? Okay. I just buy it store like Red Boat, which is the high quality one. Yeah. Uh I've had other people's homemade fish sauces that were delicious.
+
+[40:06] The person that I would look at, although I don't know if she's published anything recently, is Sally Granger, who is making her own Roman style fish sauce uh garums. Uh and I had her homemade fish sauce, and it was some of the best fish sauce I've ever had in in my life. Uh it is going to go through a putrid phase. I mean, it's going to be did it not c did it not clarify out. Did you not have the stuff sink to the bottom and the liquid come up?
+
+[40:30] I mean it was I I pretty much threw up when I opened up. Yeah, yeah. Well, how long how long into the process was that? It was three months. Oh, yeah, so you waited long enough.
+
+[40:42] It should have been okay. Uh but did you not add enough salt? I I that maybe that's the issue. I mean uh but but you know, it isn't garum different than fish sauce in that harum is just kind of strained uh but but there's not a fermentation to it. No, that's uh the the stuff that they sell, the anchovy stuff that they sell now, uh, and I don't know why the name just went out of my head, the Italian product that starts with a C.
+
+[41:09] I don't know what the heck's wrong with me here. Yeah, colotura, there you go. Uh that stuff is not like uh original garm. Original Garum is very much like fish sauce. There were many, many different types depending on how much fish was in it and what type of fish and what part of the fish.
+
+[41:25] So uh and and that changed uh depending on what era in uh Roman culture you're in. Uh Sally Granger, who uh did uh I think one of the best uh kind of a peaceish translations along with her husband as a scholar of this, is was working a couple of years ago, and probably done now, her PhD on Roman fish sauce, and she's the one who's uh one I tasted, and uh she had made one uh all from guts, the guts of uh fish, which is what the one of the highest levels of garment was during a pecious time. Uh and uh it was fantastic. And no, it is f it is fermented, uh definitely that way. Uh, my guess is is that if it was extremely putrid smelling on the order of like a Surstroming, which is the Swedish putrid fish, uh, that you just didn't have enough salt because that in fact is how Sir Stroming is made.
+
+[42:12] You under salt the fish and then let it ferment. So I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you uh just didn't have enough salt in the mix. Okay. Uh that that that that may have been that may have been it. Uh and I it's important to use the the gut that had the whole fish, or should I use only gut?
+
+[42:32] Uh well, all of them make uh all of them make will make a fish sauce. It just depends on I mean, I think the the enzymes in the gut uh help to uh get it going. The enzymes and bacteria in the gut help to get it going. So, you know, I wouldn't uh remove them, uh, but uh, you know, I think I either will work and have been used, every part has been used at various times in in history, all getting a different product. I mean, I think the like I said, at that one period, the highest end garland garum was just from the guts, but typically the high end garum was produced uh the literature from whole, very, very fresh whole mackerel that have been unbled so that the blood is still in them.
+
+[43:13] And uh and so then, you know, they break down quite nicely with uh the addition of enough salt into delicious fish sauce. And I know it works because I've tasted it. And and and where can I find it in about about tally? Does she have a book? Let's tell you.
+
+[43:28] Well, she uh you could look up her uh, you know, the uh uh the apecious is whatever it's called, De Ray Coconaria or whatever it is. Uh she's uh was the the person on one of the more recent ones of that, and she's out of England, but I don't know what university she's doing her PhD in, but her name is uh Granger, I believe spelled with an I G R A, I believe it's G R A I and G E R Sally Granger. And she's uh she is probably w or is one of the world's great uh authorities on that subject. Okay, I'll lift her. Cool.
+
+[43:58] How you thoughts. Oh that stuff's amazing. It is, it's incredibly delicious. Uh go buy it now. Don't wait.
+
+[44:06] Find if if you know where you can buy it, buy it now. It's delicious. Uh it's different from the other Jap famous Japanese fish saucy, uh, which comes from uh Ishikawa, which is also delicious, and tastes uh remarkably like the Roman uh guts only garum because it's made from the guts of fish. So uh both of those you should run out and buy right now. Okay, I'm gonna try it again.
+
+[44:30] Let's see how it goes. All right, very good. Thanks. All right. Um this in uh hi, Dave, uh, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe.
+
+[44:39] A longtime reader of your blog and listener to the show. Uh the call number's now steering into my brain, but I can't call in when you're on and never recalled you giving oh my gosh, my phone, giving the um email over the air. So Nastasha, what email should they use? Do you want to set up a whole separate email just for rarely? No, okay, so give me the email.
+
+[44:55] Info at heritage radio network dot org. And send the questions to that and you'll forward it to Nastasha. Yep. All right. Uh so uh a second I gotta find out where I was.
+
+[45:07] Uh so there you go. That's a good way to get into the uh to the radio code. I have a follow-up from Andrew Switzer on the uh lemons. He says the fruit was store-bought and in the following tests to replicate the fluke, the zested skin molded. Huh.
+
+[45:21] Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I don't know. Someone's someone's gotta have something on that.
+
+[45:24] We'll see. Uh okay. My second question, somebody's reading my iPad is acting up. My second question is um regarding homemade vegan cheese and meltability. Before Nastasha starts doing her vegan face, I must say that I'm a proud omnivore, but I buy meat from a local farm, have uh no qualms about the idea of animal captivity or slaughter if they're both done humanely, and have on a dare even eaten a hamburger while watching Pita videos.
+
+[45:44] That is kind of rough because I'm sure those videos are nasty. I'm sure they're nasty. However, I've been experimenting with vegetarian and vegan meat and cheese analogs for two reasons. One, because even though they can be bought uh entirely upon the uh they can be uh well sorry because even though they can uh they brought it on entirely on themselves, I feel bad for opening up a package of Boca burgers and teasy cheese for non-meat eating guests during barbecues. I by the way concur with that I hate buying having to buy store uh packaged crap for people when they come to my house because it's like hey you know what I cared about these other people enough to cook stuff for them but you because you have a dietary restriction you you get crap.
+
+[46:26] I I'm with you on that. And all and two, I like the challenge also a good reason. I feel like I've gotten soy and gluten based meat analogs down as uh as well as I or perhaps anyone possibly can, but I'm still having issues with making meltable animal pre animal product free cheese. I've tried a few recipes for betum and the best one so far was a nut butter flavored uh nut butter flavored with nutritional yeast and set with agar. It did technically melt but needless to say not to my liking.
+
+[46:52] I also read the labels of some of the more melty cheese analogs to find that many brands of soy cheese have casein in them so perhaps I might never get the meltability I'm looking for. I was wondering if you had anything to say on the issue other than just give them real cheese and tell them it's vegan before you launch into a 10 minute rent. Well I I would never do that. I do not believe in uh lying to uh Nastasha's different Nastasha will lie. Yeah yeah uh I do not believe in lying to people about what's what's in their food because uh not because I think it's gonna hurt someone really, but just because it's just not in me to do it.
+
+[47:23] I can't like then sit down with them and watch them eat something knowing that I've lied to them. It's just it's not in me to do it. Uh here's the problem with uh with it like that casein is kind of a miracle, and it's what it's the protein that forms the gel for cheese, and it's what makes cheese melt like cheese, and it's very difficult to uh replicate. So when they're replicating it, what they're typically replicating it with now is they're using uh, and if you look at all of the meltable cheese analogs, they usually have you can use high amyloe starch. High amylo starch will eventually uh melt out, and high amylo starch uh as opposed to normal starch uh has uh uh forms a kind of a rubbery gel when it sets, which is similar to a cheese.
+
+[48:05] So that's in a lot of cheese analogs. But you need to have uh basically you need to have a structure for the cheese, something that will melt on emulsifier and oil in there to make it uh oily like cheese, and none of those things can break once it's once it's heated up. Now, uh one of the new things, and if you look at a lot of the higher end ones, uh they contain a lot of pea, sweet pea products, because pea, first of all, pea starch is fairly high in amylose, and secondly, pea proteins have the ability to form a gel that is thermally reversible, i.e. will melt out. So it they also make some they're working on gelatin replacers, I think, with made out of pea proteins.
+
+[48:41] But uh both of the galaxy foods and dia uh foods, which were two fairly highly rated uh cheese analogs that didn't have any sort of casein in them, both contained a whole bunch of pea flour, uh or or pea products, pea protein pea flour, and they will set up to to form a gel. They also had uh oil in them and emulsifier, so you're gonna need to add those. Uh these are incredibly complicated, and and if you're gonna use mod uh like pre-gelatinized starches, these are incredibly complicated, and this is a huge dark art amongst people who do it. And many patents are filed on it. You can read the patents, but it's extremely difficult to get a really good product this way, which is why people are paid lots and lots of money to try to get it right.
+
+[49:25] If you want to see an interesting review, go to vegan baking.net and look at they have a bunch of these different cheese analogs and how well they melt. Uh and and you know, you can go look at the ingredients, which is basic basically what I did. Here's a way you can make a somewhat acceptable cheese analog that's kind of brain dead. Just take and make something that tastes cheesy to you, right? Using whatever you want, whatever flavors you want.
+
+[49:49] Set it with uh um my brain is so fried today with low acyl gel-an gum, okay, uh, and set it f at a fairly high uh thickness, like a half a percent, I think. I'd have to look at it number but and then blend it. And then you have the texture of uh it's uh well, that's what's called a fluid gel, okay? And that fluid gel is gonna be heat stable. So you can kind of make that fluid gel, the texture of kind of cheese that's melted.
+
+[50:16] It's not gonna be actually like cheese because it won't be gooey, but it will actually melt out, right? To a liquid to a sauce. This is how Wiley uh at a lower percentage does uh Wiley Dufrain does his uh mayonnaise and his uh his fried mayonnaise and his fried hollandaise. Then after you do that, you heat the mixture again and you add uh you're gonna add kappa caragina and locust bean gum as a mix, uh hydrate that, then set it into a block, slice it, it'll melt at roughly 120 degrees, uh hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty degrees Fahrenheit, and should be like cheese. It won't have the stretchiness of uh cheese.
+
+[50:53] Uh and I think Jack is shutting me down. So if I missed any questions, we got one more. We got one more. What do we got? It's uh a few pounds of skirt steak somebody bought.
+
+[51:03] Smelled fine, looked good, but when they cooked it, there was an overwhelming odor of blue cheese, which got more potent when they took a bite. It was not dry aged. Any idea? Yeah. How long did they cook it?
+
+[51:15] Uh I don't have that. Okay. Uh here's what happened. Uh you cooked it, it was low temperature cooked or no? No.
+
+[51:22] How does it read it again real quick? I bought a pew a few pounds of skirt steak, smelled fine, looked good, but when I cooked it, there was an overwhelming odor of blue cheese, which got more potent when I took a bite. What's going on? Well, is not tried. That's that's the classic, that's the classic problem of uh low temp cooking, not getting the temperature up fast enough, and you're having lactic acid bacteria that are growing before the meat uh can cook.
+
+[51:45] That typically happens in bags when the bags are uh sandwiched close together in a low temperature bath, and it takes more than about uh two, three hours for the meat to get up to temperature where lactic acid bacteria are going to uh grow. Uh and so that is the that's the only explanation I can think of, because it's never gonna happen cooking on a pan. Uh that that's a bacterial phenomenon, and it's never gonna happen cooking on a pan, as far as I know. Oh, by the way, real quick, on the cream liqueur, I said I would look it up, and I did. Uh that stuff that uh uh the person was calling in last week was asking about.
+
+[52:21] Um's telling me I don't have enough time to actually go through it. So next week uh I will talk about cream liqueurs, and yes, propylene glycol monosterate is used in them to help stability. So you can go out and buy it. I'll talk more about it next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[52:47] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:11] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere.
+
+[0:27] Living a busy life, navigating a long-distance relationship, becoming a first step father. Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone.
+
+[0:41] Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com.
+
+[1:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinarycenter.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn at roughly 12. Here in the studio today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How are you doing, everyone? Good.
+
+[1:49] You were here early today. I was here damn early. I've decided that I'm gonna come to the studio and uh do some of my research here. See, typically the reason I'm late is I'm researching whatever the questions are up until the last possible minute, at which point I get on my bike and come here and you know, I'm sweating profusely. And and remember the one time I came and I couldn't breathe.
+
+[2:09] I literally had to go to an early break because I couldn't I could not breathe. Yeah. Uh, you know, plus uh I have to bike, you know, next to a concrete uh manufacturing plant, which you know I always inhale. It takes me a good fifteen minutes to get all the concrete dust out of my lungs. So I thought to myself, being, you know, like why not actually do some of the research here at the freaking studio, right?
+
+[2:30] Yeah. Doesn't that make mean like it's unusual for me to do something that makes sense? But you know, there you have it. So I start the research and I'm like, oh. I'll leave at uh ten instead of you know eleven twenty.
+
+[2:45] On that note we have a caller. Oh, caller, you are on the air. Hi, Dave, it's Brady. Hey Brady, how you do this is my cousin Brady, folks. My cousin Brady.
+
+[2:53] How you doing? I've got a uh important question for you. All right, what do you got? The cocktail related. Ooh, good.
+
+[2:59] So a cousin of mine um is she has this thing where she goes to uh like a dinner party every month or so with four other couples, and everybody's responsible for bringing in some sort of appetizer, and then they rank them by the end of the night, and someone is the winner, someone's the runner up, etc. Um and they've come in fifth out of five couples for the past couple of events, and their daughter's beginning to um I think think of them as losers, if you will. So the new one coming up is an adult beverage based on uh sort of Mexican themed. The the food is gonna be fajitas, and everyone brings in a beverage and they want to come in first. Um their daughter's like, we can't have a fifth place finish again.
+
+[3:37] Now, is it is the daughter gonna be consum consuming the adult beverage? No. She will be home with a babysitter. All right. Now, have they enjoyed all of the things they brought before and uh it they thought they were good or did they acknowledge that they lost or did they feel like they were robbed?
+
+[3:53] Because if they felt like they were robbed, my suggestion is get new friends. No, see, like the the last time I went, actually, um I was in Boston, I went with them and they were fifth. I mean, they're what they brought was still good, and all the food is actually really good, but they were fifth. They just are not taking it up a level where I mean the the other couples are taking it really seriously and they're sort of doing this in their spare time right before they go. Right, right.
+
+[4:14] Right. And the the other thing is this does not need to be tequila based. But it is uh Mexican themed. Yep. Yeah.
+
+[4:21] Well, I mean, uh okay, so uh so these other people are thinking a lot. Are these people uh are they kind of food snobs? Yes, but yes. Okay. So uh if people are not food snobs, I think it's a very bad idea to make them uh feel bad to guilt them into giving you points.
+
+[4:38] However, i if someone is a food snob, then the best way to win is to pummel them with evidence such that they feel that they are the smallest human beings on earth uh with their lack of knowledge. In which case I would suggest making something with an extremely rare mezcal. I'll go get an extremely rare mezcal, uh like a what's that one we carry now at the bar? It's like something Dalmas. Like it's like super tiny, right?
+
+[5:03] So it's not even that it's uh more expensive than some of the other stuff you can get that's better known, like Del Magwe and all this other stuff, Del Magid, rather. It's just that it's harder to find and so be like, you don't know about this? What what? You know what I mean? And then like right then mix with there.
+
+[5:16] But if you're gonna go uh um Mexican, I mean I would suggest maybe going w with with a mezcal. The there's a qu there's always a question of do you want to try to go over the top or do you just want to go uh really, really just like spot on? I mean, do these people live in New York? No, they live in Boston. Uh are you gonna be up there or no?
+
+[5:36] No, I'm not gonna be. They're live in Westboro, so that's sort of the western suburb of Boston. All right. Uh canned peach juice and mezcal. So it's kind of Mexican themed, but doesn't taste it's not just a margarita.
+
+[5:56] Uh-huh. And you know that I mean I think that's probably gonna be different from from anything that uh that's at at that place. They could probably go buy clarified peach juice and do something similar. I'd have to go get the specs in in in my head. I can give them to you later, but do you think something like that might might win?
+
+[6:11] I mean, uh I I have a feeling that if everyone's gonna do adult everyone's doing adult beverages, that's w just what they have. No, everyone's doing adult beverages and I I mean I'm not for sure that everyone's going to do tequila, but if it's Mexican themed, I can't see that you know, out of the five couples that four of them are are gonna think outside the box and do you know something that's gin-based but still Mexican and theme. Yeah. I mean, I don't even I'm not sure. I mean, like you could go super like our friend uh Evan Clem once did a uh you know uh corn-based beverage uh as his Mexican themed beverage.
+
+[6:40] Uh I mean there are kinds of things you can do. The question is how challenging do you want to get? Do you want to just go kind of like uh food like food knowledge geeky? Do you want to get like you want to you definitely don't want to go with tequila, you want to go with one of the other agave based uh beverages just to to you know kind of be an outlier like maybe like uh Sotol or or like a really interesting mezcal. Yeah.
+
+[7:01] Um, I think uh like, you know, what's in order is like a trip to uh my well and uh you know here in New York and just like look at the their cocktail list and then b basically steal some of their ideas. And that's the that's the the best way to do it. Now the the other question is is is is winning going to be strictly based on on flavor or are is it gonna have to be some sort of a strange garnish to pull out a win or at least like a second place? The only the criteria for winning is your favorite. You vote for your favorite out of the five.
+
+[7:30] Okay and you're not allowed to vote for your own, of course, so you vote on the other four. Right. Uh and uh do people tell stories? Um yes. Yeah.
+
+[7:38] So you gotta beef up on the story. Like half of this stuff is the story. I can I can uh I mean uh if you serve people things and you have a really good story beforehand, then you know that makes the stuff actually taste better because you have this big story. So I would choose s uh like some sort of a rare, although not necessarily expensive, but m you know, more difficult to source or strange uh uh spirit. I would then choose um uh like an herb or a fruit that is not kind of normal and then everything else can kind of even out.
+
+[8:09] Like you can just use lime juice if you want to as your uh as your acidity. I would probably do uh I mean, I think it's interesting to do stir drinks. W I wouldn't necessarily go for a shaking drink like uh like a margarita just because uh that's kind of what you're expecting. I would maybe go for a stir drink, which uh you could probably pull off a little more of the sophistication and that adds a little more to the monocle in the eye food snob kind of a vibe that I think you need to win these sorts of things. Uh and probably get some sort of a uh spot on garnish.
+
+[8:40] I mean, you know, at Booker and Dax we kind of we kind of don't typically do the the garnish thing just because we don't want to be labeled as like the you know the people who you know do all the fancy tech garnishes. Although in this case that seems like it'd probably be a good idea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is it being helpful at all or is this too general?
+
+[8:55] No, this is helpful, but she also she sort of made a point of saying that she does not have liquid nitrogen. You know what I mean? So like they they can do stuff but um I think if it gets too difficult they're just gonna not you know they have two kids so if you're gonna do a stirred cocktail the best way to do it to get the temperature almost exactly right is uh especially if you're gonna use a fruit juice. So let's say they're gonna use a fruit juice in it. You can't use a fruit juice and a spirit and then stir it and then have the temperature right.
+
+[9:23] Okay. If you store the whole thing in the freezer then the temperature won't be right because it's going to be too cold. What they should do is just go buy uh some two inch ice cube cube uh freezing thing so that they can get like nice fairly nice I mean not like you know not super clear grade you know the style that we use that we pay a lot of money for but you know fairly nice ice cubes get like double old fashioned figure out whatever garnish their glasses figure out whatever kind of garnish they're gonna use freeze the ice cubes get the liquor base freeze that and then keep the fruit juice or whatever in you know plus whatever water they need in the fridge then when they mix the freezer uh they mix the freezer booze with the uh fridge um juice it'll add up to the exact right temperature in the glass at least usually does and so they can get something that's in perfect condition without a lot of stirring and mess and worrying about it and they all they have to do at home is you know but to practice is choose the booze, keep it in the freezer and whatever fruit juices are going to balance it with in the fridge, do their mix testing and then and then go. But a stir drink is going to be easier because it doesn't require a lot of texture. They can pre-figure out the um the the balance they need in terms of uh uh dilution, it can all be kind of pre-done mixed, and then just as long as you have access to that other person's freezer, bang, and then a nice two inch ice cube and then you know a a good either twist or some sort of fancy fruit as a garnish, and it shouldn't take too much longer.
+
+[10:48] It's gonna take more because they're gonna have to think in advance uh of what they're gonna do, but it shouldn't actually take many hours of work. Okay. Um I might say peach juice, if you can get clarified peach juice, even if you can't, it doesn't have to be clarified, it's just you know how that's how we roll, we clarify most things. But like something like peach and mezcal go very, very well together because it's reminiscent of smoky, kind of like a grilled smoky peach, which every which everybody likes. So like peach uh lime juice, some sort of like smoky mezcal, uh maybe even then balance with a little bit of uh tequila because mezcal can sometimes be a little overpowering in a drink like that, uh stirred with some sort of nice garnish in a in a double old fashion.
+
+[11:26] It's not a lot of work, but it's uh it's good. You're probably gonna have to add a little bit of water just because otherwise it's gonna be too intense, just like straight peach and booze and lime, too intense. And you might have to add some sugar to it, like a couple bar spoons of uh like demerara syrup to give it more brown sugar notes, which brings it more on the grilled peach. And that's just if you're gonna do peach, you could do a different fruit. But it is summertime.
+
+[11:47] Right. Um okay, so just and the final thing, you keep saying maybe throw a garnish in there, like what? What would be a good garnish? Everyone likes like some sort of like fresh piece of uh fruit. I mean, they can't vacuum infuse them, assuming they don't have uh vacuum.
+
+[12:01] I don't think so. No, but they could like you know, they could marinate some fruit in a different kind of a booze for a couple of days and then put it on a skewer and that always looks festive and tastes good. But it should taste good. Garnish is shouldn't just be I mean, I'm not an umbrella sort of I mean okay, I am. I really like an umbrella and I like a a cocktail monkey, I have to say it.
+
+[12:18] Nastasha, do you enjoy the cocktail monkey? Yes. Yeah, everyone really everyone we say that we don't enjoy it, but we all we love it. We do. Everyone does.
+
+[12:24] The little flamingo, I mean, who doesn't like that? You know? Uh so you know, there's that. Oh man, here's another one. If you really want to, if you want to go Looney Tunes, you can go buy some and and you know, but if you want to go on the kitsch side of Delicious, then uh go buy some fresh juice coconuts.
+
+[12:40] They're still available right now, and then serve everyone uh, you know, hack the top off, drain the stuff out, throw the coconuts in the freezer, those become the glasses, and then you can make a drink. Uh you i you normally I do rum with the coconut water stuff because it's but you could definitely balance out a mezcal or tequila drink with coconut water and uh and then serve it in in that thing of coconut, which is if you want to go on the kitch side, is cool. As long as you're like, oh, we know it's kitsch, but you know, the monocle pop the monocle out of your eye and then you say you know you know what I mean? Yeah. Um okay.
+
+[13:14] That's good. I wrote all this down, Dave. So that's very helpful. I'm gonna pass it along and um fingers crossed that she wins. All right, thanks, Brady.
+
+[13:20] Let us know how it goes. Thanks. Alrighty. Uh okay. Now uh I have some questions in from last week.
+
+[13:25] I'm gonna oh by the way, call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Okay. Uh question from last week uh that I didn't answer from Brian. I don't think I didn't answer the birch syrup question, did I?
+
+[13:36] No. Okay. Uh I've heard that birch syrup is uh also wonderful and different from maples maple syrup. What do you know about it? It is true uh that maples are not the only trees that are tapped for their sap uh to produce syrups.
+
+[13:50] Birch is as well. Um I have had birch syrup only once, and it was uh uh many years ago. I would say like six years ago when I first kind of learned about it. And I don't really I can't really say that I've tasted it because the sample that I got of birch syrup was in my opinion flawed. It tasted like it had kind of gone, it had a sour taste to it that I wasn't expecting, and it tasted like it had been burnt a bit when it was being reduced.
+
+[14:17] And so I'm gonna go ahead and say that I haven't actually had uh um birch syrup at its um at what I assume is going to be its best. I will say this about birch syrup. The production is incredibly small. Uh I you know, we should go get some more, see what it's like now, because I I love anything anything like that. You know, Stas, we should get some some birch syrup.
+
+[14:37] Uh birch sap has a much lower sugar content than maple sap does. And so you have to acquire more of it and boil it down more. But uh I'm anxious to hear anyone else's experience on birch sap. I mean, maybe it's supposed to have a little bit of a sour note to it. Maybe it's supposed to taste a little bit burnt, but my impression of it was that my sample was flawed.
+
+[14:58] And I handed it to a bunch of chefs. I gave some to Nils, uh, I gave some to a bunch of people. I said, Do you think that this is what this is supposed to be like, or do you think this is flawed? And everyone said this is flawed. So I don't I don't I can't say I know what it what it tastes like, but I also uh am intrigued and uh I love any sort of new new I'm a new ingredient freak, so you know if uh if you can if we can use birch syrup, then hey, let's do it, let's get it, right?
+
+[15:24] Yeah, sorry, couldn't be more help. Uh okay. Now we had another question uh that I didn't get to on um cream cream liqueurs, and I said uh I would deal with it this week. So here I am. So I looked up uh on the interwebs a uh some recipes, some industrial recipes for making uh cream liqueurs and what's what's in them.
+
+[15:48] And typically it does you don't you're not required to have uh an emulsifier in the cream liqueur, although it it can help. But they are typically in the range of twelve to sixteen percent milk fat, fifteen to 20% sugar, two two two and a half to three and a half percent sodium caseinate, that's milk protein, uh, nonfat milk solids, uh one to three and a half percent, and fourteen percent booze balance of forty-six to fifty percent uh water. Now, what does this mean? What is this what does this mean? It means they're fairly high in fat uh and they are clearly have in it milk solids and casein, and the casein is acting as the emulsifier there to keep everything together, which is a protein.
+
+[16:31] Notice the booze content, by that I mean ethanol, is low. So it's in the range of 14%. So uh I think that once you add more alcohol, the alcohol is going to start to destabilize the emulsion. So it, you know, the caller that called in before, I think he was having phase separation problems, if my memory serves me right, uh, not curdling, not breaking, but phase separation. And so to me that means that you the emulsion is destabilized.
+
+[16:57] Uh and that might be because the alcohol content is too high. Uh the other thing that you um might want to do, which is what he says, add an emulsifier. And uh by adding an emulsifier to it, you're going to reduce the amount of creaming, i.e., separate phase separation uh that you have. Uh and you're gonna want to go look at a book, and it's gonna be the next uh book that I try and get on the highly technical stuff called Food Emulsifiers and Their Applications by uh Gerard Hasenhuthoe, Hasenhutur, I think is how you pronounce the person's name. Uh and it really talks about the different kinds of emulsifiers and why you would use one versus the other.
+
+[17:32] And when you're when you're using something in a uh in a cream liqueur, you want to use what's called an alpha tending emulsifier, uh, and it's just a technical term, alpha tending uh emulsifier, and those types of emulsifiers tend to form films. They're film-forming emulsifiers that form at the interface between a liquid uh and and an oil or I should say a water-based liquid and an oil-based uh liquid or air or whatever. And so those film-forming ones are better at stabilizing things in cream emulsions, and one of those alpha tending uh film-forming emulsifiers is propylene glycol monosterate or PGMS. We have a caller caller here on the air. Hey Dave, it's Michael Matkin.
+
+[18:12] Hey, how you doing? I'm doing great. How are you? Doing doing well. I like like the cookbook.
+
+[18:16] How's the cookbook doing? It's doing really good. You know, we sold out the first printing, so that's exciting. Awesome. Congratulations.
+
+[18:22] Jack, can we get the applause applause meter on that? He's slow on the applause. There you go. Don't I'm blushing over here. Yeah.
+
+[18:32] So what's up? So uh I'm working on the equipment list for my first restaurant. It's gonna be a sort of a small lunchtime place. And I wanted to get your advice on whether I should go Paco Jet versus another kind of ice cream machine. Okay.
+
+[18:45] Uh okay. So you familiar with uh Pure Food here in Manhattan? No. Okay, pure uh it's called pure food and wine, right? That's uh Sarma Melingas' restaurant.
+
+[18:55] And uh she is the only person I have ever seen who does all of her ice creams in Paco Jet. Um, all of them. And uh and she had a an ice cream shop attached to the restaurant called I forget what the ice cream shop's called, like Lucky Duck or something like that, or one Lucky Duck. And she did uh like a lot of ice cream service just out of a Paco jet. So it is feasible, even in someone that's pushing a lot of ice cream to do it.
+
+[19:19] But how how much ice cream do you plan on serving? Um not a ton. It's not like it's gonna be an ice cream restaurant, but I want the flexibility that, you know, if I'm doing a dish to have an ice cream component on it. You know, I would imagine it would be smaller scoops. You know, it's not like I would be serving Sundays, at least not very often.
+
+[19:29] Right, right. So I mean, Paco Jet is fantastic at having lots of flavors available uh in smaller quantities. So you could kind of you you it's feasible to have like a flavor base that is there, and then you know, even if you only use a scoop a night, it's okay because you can only process the amount you need and keep the rest kind of and and you can reprocess it again and get it back into perfect temper. Unlike normal ice cream where you make the batch and then from there on out the it's turning to crap, you know, uh as you look at it, it's it's losing its its you know stuff. It's crystal, you know, decrystallizing, recrystalizing, blah, blah, blah, losing its texture.
+
+[20:13] Paco Jet is fantastic at uh at you know the perfect texture, you know, you know, because you just reprocess it if you need to. Right. How long does it take to spin one scoop? Uh not long. I mean, if you're spinning the entire uh Paco Jet uh container, uh that probably takes I don't know, two minutes or something like that, all told.
+
+[20:33] No, but three, maybe three. Uh it's loud. Uh, you know, so you wouldn't necessarily want to have it in front of a uh a customer, but it doesn't take a long time. And processing just you know one or two things doesn't doesn't take very long at all. The the one trick is you have to some people pre-spin some just because uh it's i sometimes it gets a little soft when it, you know, right after it's spun and they like to firm it up a little more.
+
+[20:55] The big problem with the Paco Jet is the freezer temperature that you have it at is critical to the making sure that if it's too cold if it's too cold, the product comes out kind of powdery. If it's too warm, the product comes out uh soupy. So it uh it's a lot about um temperature maintenance uh in inside the freezer, and especially during a busy service, going in and out, making sure you can maintain the temperature stability, and I think that's why a lot of people will process a couple of scoops and then you know keep those scoops in a dipping well or whatever. Uh but you know, I've done it uh out of a freezer. You know, everyone kind of gets that thing to work in their own sort of way.
+
+[21:32] The one uh some of the problems with Paco Jets are that uh if they break, they might have gotten better, but years ago, which is the last time that you know I had to use one a bunch at the school, uh if one breaks, they don't necessarily get you a loner instantly, and then you're without a Paco Jet. And so, you know, I've had to help people out. If you have a friend that has one, they can loan you one when yours is down, or if you can afford to have a second one lying around, uh, you know, then it's kind of okay. But you know, they break more, they used to break more often than, for instance, the Carpeganis do. Now, Carpiani, you know, uh, you know, the LB100 is going to take up a lot more space in your kitchen, which I don't know whether that's at a premium.
+
+[22:12] It's gonna cost like twelve grand. Do you know what I mean? That they're fan they're fantastic. But if you don't need the volume on uh you know on the on the Carpaganis, then you know, I would say you know, Paco Jet is viable. Just you know, just be aware of the of the issues.
+
+[22:28] Make sure that you that whoever you buy it from, uh you know, I haven't had to buy one in a long time, but make sure that whoever you buy it from is gonna help you get the parts quickly. It's not like all the parts are kind of proprietary on the inside, like all the belts and cogwheels are not labeled with any sort of normal labeling, so you can't just go to an industrial website and buy the parts for it, which is irritating. But um they're great. The texture is great. They're fantastic.
+
+[22:53] The other the other issue that's expensive is the stainless steel containers are expensive, and people in your kitchen are gonna tend to not realize that they're not Bain, Marie's, and sift them around, which can be uh also problematic. Uh the guys at Pure Food uh and wine used to freeze their stuff in quart containers and then jam those into the uh stainless steel buckets for spinning, and it works great. The one problem is is that if you jam it in crooked uh and it's loose and the blade as it comes down hits it cock eyed, you can shatter the blade. Uh so you know it's it's a question of what you know what risks are you willing to take. It won't ruin the Paco Jet, but it could, you know, could cause that that kind of a problem.
+
+[23:37] You're shoving it down in there in the plastic, or you're taking out of the plastic tub and shoving that block of ice down into the stainless. Yeah, the ladder. You pop it out of the uh you pop it out of the core container and jam it into the into the stainless, but it's not an exact fit. You have to really jam it down and make sure it's not at an angle. The b the the blade really doesn't want to all of a sudden hit something thicker than its you know incremental slicing.
+
+[24:00] Yeah, I got it. I got it. Okay. Very cool. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:03] But anyway, but yeah, I love Paco Jet. They're great. I mean, they really are great. For for all that I'm you know, complain about the fact that they cost a lot uh and you know that they're they're still fantastic pieces of equipment. Cool.
+
+[24:15] Well, thanks for the advice. That helps a lot. All right, thank you. Thanks for calling. Yeah.
+
+[24:19] Don't be a stranger. All right, bye-bye. Um all right, hey Jack, you want to go to our first commercial break? Yes, sir. Coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[24:34] This is up from the south from the Buddha spending. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef Story.
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+[25:38] Check out our ICC website at international culinarycenter.com. Hey Jack, what's the music that you put there with Dorothy? Oh yeah, some dreamy music. Yeah, there's some dreamy music. It's like uh ad music.
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+[25:54] Hey, what's up? No Wiley? No Wiley? No, no love for Wiley. I don't know.
+
+[25:58] Maybe that's on the second commercial. The deans, too. All those deans. Yeah, yeah, we got some good deans over at the end. They've been uh they've been promoting you a lot, actually.
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+[26:13] Nice. I appreciate it. Promotion's good, right, Sas? I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[26:19] Don't talk to me. I'm emailing people. All right. I had somebody real quick, I had a cooking issues listener ask if uh if Nastasia is is actually this is real. They're like, is she actually like rolling her eyes in the studio sometimes?
+
+[26:31] Because it sounds like it. Yeah, it sounds like it's a little bit more than a little bit. How do you hear that? You know? It's it's the pause, and then I think the sardonic reply.
+
+[26:39] I think that's what it is. I I confirm that it does indeed happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right now, Nastash is buying some shoes on Zappos.
+
+[26:47] Okay, I'm paying paying lots of bills. What kind of bills? Debt. Awesome. Okay.
+
+[26:55] She didn't have the debt at 10 a.m. this morning. The debt came in at noon. Just so you know. Just so you know.
+
+[27:00] Debt wasn't there at 10. That's only there at noon. Okay. Uh this question in from uh Jean, I assume it's Jean and not Jean. Uh Jean Doe, which is an awesome name, dough, right?
+
+[27:12] Doe? Like dough, not like dough like doure me, like dough likes dough nut. Which is delicious. And not well, not like do not d you shouldn't spell dough not do and u t. That's uh that's horrible.
+
+[27:22] It's an abomination. It's dough like like dough that you work with. Anyway, uh one uh posted this to uh to me and to ideas and food. Wanna poach using ocean water. Any thoughts on uh dilution or other considerations?
+
+[27:34] I wouldn't dilute it, right? It's just uh I would filter the heck out of it. You know what I mean? And make sure that you don't get it from like the swampy tidal pool thing, which is what I already responded to this on the on the Twitter, but um just saying I don't think you need to dilute it, but be aware that uh seawater is a lot more bitter than salt water because there are many other salts in seawater other than uh other than you know, sodium chloride, table salt. And to kind of get an idea of what that does for flavor, you can pick up uh nigari, which is uh you know the Japanese uh salt that they use to set tofu.
+
+[28:08] You can also set tofu, by the way, in seawater. It's possible to set tofu in seawater, that's an old school way of doing it. Uh, but if you taste nigari, which are all the salts left over after most of the sodium chloride is removed, that bitterness is what you get out of seawater. So just be aware that that flavor is there. But people have been using microfiltered seawater for you know, you know, a long, long time.
+
+[28:28] It was especially popular ingredient in kind of high-tech Spanish cooking, um, and probably still is for all I know. Okay. Uh we got anonymous in. Please ask Dave Arnold if venison from a deer addled with Lyme disease is still edible. Yuck.
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+[28:44] From Anonymous. What are your thoughts, Sasha? Before I before I tell you the answer, what do you think? Uh, you know the answers probably it's fine. Just because you know me and my answer to everything is fine?
+
+[28:54] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you happen to be right.
+
+[28:57] I mean, I don't think the reasoning is good on your part, but the you happen to be correct. I went on the uh CDC, which is the Center for Disease Controls website, and uh kind of looked up to see what what the theory is. And uh Lyme disease is uh a disease that actually you know it can be easy to treat if you catch it early. If you don't catch it early, it can be really horrible and can cause central nervous system problems that can be persistent um almost indefinitely. It can it can be really bad.
+
+[29:23] Uh and they you know it's named after the town in Connecticut nearby here, uh Lyme, where I guess it was first uh noticed, and you get it from deer ticks, most you know, most from deer ticks. Uh and it has a life cycle that goes from deer tick to rodent to deer, but you know, around in this big circle, and you get it, the tick bites you, the spirochete is injected uh into you, and then you get the Lyme disease. Sometimes you get a bullseye rash, sometimes you don't, and you get muscular, uh, you know, m muscular pains and headaches, blur, all the nasty stuff, and you treat it with uh with antibiotics, but you gotta catch it early. Okay. There's no evidence, this is from the CDC directly.
+
+[29:59] There's no evidence that Lyme disease is transmitted from person to person, so you can't get it from uh infected from touching, kissing, or having sex with a person who has Lyme disease. So what this means is that bodily fluid contact is not what's going to cause uh the Lyme disease. And similarly, uh although uh Lyme disease during pregnancy can cause problems, um a lot of problems, such as infec infection of the placenta and whatnot, uh if the baby makes it baby baby's okay. And uh and although there have been no uh cases of Lyme disease linked to blood transfusion, they still don't recommend that you give blood if you know you you have Lyme disease. So, what this means, uh what all this means is that you're not gonna get it from eating uh venison or squirrel meat.
+
+[30:41] And they say, for instance, that you're not gonna get Lyme disease from eating venison or squirrel meat, but in keeping with general food safety principles, meat should always be cooked thoroughly. And here's the here's the key. The key is uh note hunting and dressing deer or squirrels may bring you into close contact with infected ticks. So if you are hunting uh deer that are been addled with Lyme disease, then you are in uh much greater contact with the with the you know the environment where you're gonna get a tick. So you do deer uh do tick checks, uh be careful, put um you know repellents on you to keep ticks from jumping on you, you know, like soak your clothes and whatever that is, pyrethrine or whatever it is that stops the ticks from getting there.
+
+[31:21] But that's the main thing. Now, the interesting thing with deer disease that no one knows what the what the final thing is gonna be on isn't Lyme disease, it's chronic wasting disease, which you get from elk and I guess other deer, but not here on the East Coast, you get it in uh kind of the north middle of uh of the country. And this is a uh a spongiform and cephalopathy, uh, you know, a TSC, a transf a transmissible uh spongiform and cephalopathy, uh similar to Jakobs Kreutschveld or Mad Cow, and uh causing um neurological disease in elk and deer, not thought to be transmissible to humans. However, wise word on the street is that you never know when uh the TSE, which is a pre it's a they're prion related uh so like this weird little protein, prion related diseases, when they're going to be able to change a little bit and make the jump from one animal, uh for instance cows, mad cow disease, to human beings. So we don't know.
+
+[32:16] Like uh we don't know whether there's ever going to be a sheep-based uh scrapie that can come over to uh to us. We don't know if there's going to be a chronic wasting disease that can jump and come to us. And the fun part about uh you know transmissible uh transmissible uh spongiform and cephalopathies is they have something like 10, 15 year incubation period. So the thing that kills you you could have eaten 10, 15 years ago. Awesome, right?
+
+[32:39] Is that super happy times? Super happy times. And so because of that, I make a general rule of not eating um not eating uh brain matter or um uh nerve tissue uh unless like someone really offers it to me and I'm like and I feel like I'm gonna be extremely rude not eating it because being uh impolite is is uh much uh worse than dying in 15 years. Not really, but it's kind of what happens. So uh I tend to stay away from that stuff, and I know a lot of other people that do too, just because we don't know how that stuff's gonna suss out yet.
+
+[33:10] Um okay. Uh hello, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. Finally, every so we're getting called out in the right in the right stuff. Uh Dave, you mentioned in several shows, including the last one, that you like making chicken stock at home in the pressure cooker. You've alluded to several changes to regular recipes that are required to get a good result, such as doubling or tripping, tripling the amount of onion, using less water, etc.
+
+[33:33] Could you spell out specifically a typical recipe that you will use that you would use? Also, I make a cocktail that uses a Leucuma puree. However, it's very difficult to find here in the Bay Area, and I cannot always get it. Do you know of any reasonable substitutes I could try? I've bought Leukuma powder, but I haven't had much luck.
+
+[33:50] It doesn't taste the same and imparts a gritty texture to the drink. Thanks, love the show, Michael in Oakland, California. Okay, I'm gonna handle this in reverse. I don't yet have a good substitute for uh Leucima uh puree. Uh I haven't used it really uh that much.
+
+[34:07] I've had it kind of preserved, but I've never had um the fresh stuff. I've had similar related fruits from South America and Colombia, but I'm gonna have to do more research on it. In fact, I'm going to Colombia in at the end of August, and I'm in Leucama's Peruvian. And it's like one of these Peruvian superfruit jobbies that they're doing a good job uh marketing. Uh so when I go, I'm specifically gonna do some research.
+
+[34:32] I'm gonna try to get the fresh stuff that's closely related as I can to it, even though it's not I won't be in Peru, I'll be in Colombia, and then the other substitutes, and then once I have more experience using the real deal fresh stuff, then I will be able to make a good uh substitution for it. Powders, yeah, they're you know, they're they're you know, yeah, uh the typically things like that might uh impart a gritty texture to a to a drink. Uh and the real question is are you adding the Leucuma for what purpose? For creaminess, for taste, for what? Uh so I'm gonna do more research, and then uh if you want to send an email back like at the beginning of next month, right when I get back from Colombia, I'll have an answer for you, and also please email why, you know, what it is you want, what it is you want to mimic about the Leukuma, everything or just the flavor or just the texture, right?
+
+[35:14] And then we can kind of uh work from there. Okay? Now, back to the stock. Um when I make so it's it I don't actually have a specific recipe. I feel like I'm like I'm really doing you wrong, Michael, but I don't have like a specific recipe uh that I use.
+
+[35:35] I just know that uh I kind of I always do uh stocks really by eye, which is dumb. But um when I do it at home, I'll typically uh I'll typically won't even roast off my bones. I'll I'll brown the bones in uh in a pan. So let's do chicken. Like I'll take chicken, uh, a lot of backs and you know the ac the excess meat from that.
+
+[35:56] Usually when I fry chickens, I have a lot of bones and backs and stuff left over. I have all the bones, in fact, because I make boneless fried chicken. I'll chop them up uh fairly fine and then I'll um I'll cook them actually in the pressure cooker in batches just so I don't have to go roast. When I'm cooking uh, you know, in a professional kitchen, I'll roast. Uh and I'll you know, I'll also like uh roast off uh the vegetables as well, uh, and then put them in.
+
+[36:21] I do typically add probably twice as much onion when I'm doing pressure cooker as when I'm doing a traditional stock. You don't need to, just be aware that the onion flavor will be different and will be a little bit muted. You can add a little bit of fresh onion afterwards and do like a 10-15 minute simmer of freshly sweated, not fresh, fresh onions, but freshly sweated onions to to bolster bolster that back up. Don't alter your celery uh or your carrot uh amount or it'll come out kind of too carrot and too celery. Um I jam the bones down in as hard as I can, and then I add water basically just to cover the bones and no more.
+
+[36:55] And I think you know, one of the issues, it'll everything depends on what you're gonna use it for. If you you know, uh uh from years of having the stock that they make at the at the French Culinary Institute, now the ICC, in my opinion, all of that stock was uh it's too too watery. So, like normal professional procedure is to add excess water and then um you know boil it for you know, simmer it for a very, very long time. Uh and uh in the end, you always end up having to reduce that stock before you use it because uh the flavor profile is just not high enough. Now, from an economic standpoint, it does make sense to use excess, well, I don't know, accepting the cost of gas to boil the stuff down.
+
+[37:35] It makes some economic sense to um use excess water because it means that the flavor, the liquids that are left in the stuff after you drain it, have less of the um less of the flavor and protein in them than they would if you diluted it, and then you can boil it back down. My feeling, which kind of goes back to reading, you know, Peterson's book so many times, is that the super long boiling times and reduction, constant reduction, while intensifying flavors can tend to dull the flavor. So I prefer to make a much more flavorful initial stock, even though I might lose some of that flavor in uh in the fact that there still is liquid clinging to the bones and whatnot when they come out. So uh when I'm doing it at home, I try to go for the most flavorful one because cost isn't necessarily an issue. I'm not serving a lot of people.
+
+[38:20] I'm just trying to effectively use a whole bunch of chicken backs that I have in carcasses. So I'll actually do a uh uh a triple stock. I'll do I'll do veg uh and then I'll roast off a whole bunch of bones and I'll put pack them in, fill just over the top with water, hit it once, and then uh drain that one and put it with a fresh uh thing of bones and do it again. I don't do uh remillage at home just because I don't do remillage at home, but uh, you know, if you want to do a Remy stock with it, you all you also could. Um anyway, sorry I don't have a specific obviously I don't salt the stuff because I don't know what I'm gonna use it for later.
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+[38:55] Uh if you're making a broth or soup, you know, do whatever you do whatever you want. Uh I do typically add uh the peppercorns beforehand uh and bay just because I'm used to it, even though Jeffrey Steingarden tells me that I'm an idiot for doing so because all that's happening there is imparting bitterness from the pepper and not the aroma, which uh is very fleeting and goes away. Uh but I like that bitterness, so I'm gonna do it anyway, even though Jeffrey tells me I shouldn't. What do you think? I haven't spoken to Jeffrey in a long time, have we?
+
+[39:20] Yeah, I know. Say hello to my man Jeffrey. So sorry I could not be more accurate. Uh I looked up Miss Vicky's uh pressure cooker stock. She actually tends to be more Miss Vicky writes pressure cooker things.
+
+[39:30] Uh actually, you know, I snuck around, you know, the Amazon, I did the look inside on Amazon because I don't actually own her book, and it didn't give me the one key page in American Amazon. So I went to Amazon UK and they gave me that one page. So, like, you know, if at first you don't succeed on the Amazon look inside, try a different country, try a different country again. Thank God I didn't have to go to like Amazon.checoslovakia or whatever, because I I wouldn't be able to read the I'd have to go through translation, which is an irritation. Uh anyway, um but yeah, she cooks her pressure cooker stock for like half an hour on chicken, which I think is reasonable, but not on beef.
+
+[40:04] Um the you know, uh whereas Heston, I think Blumenthal cooks for like an hour. When we were running our tests at the French culinary, I think we cooked an hour or longer for our pressure cooker stocks. Really, you're gonna get, especially if you chop up the the bones pretty fine, you're gonna get the vast majority of extraction in a half an hour at 15 PSI. And so I think that's probably good enough. Half hour, forty-five minutes.
+
+[40:26] Then let it come down naturally. The coming down naturally is the key on the recipe there, so that you're not boiling all the stuff out of the uh of the bones and causing all sorts of uh emulsification problems, which we're gonna deal with in a second. Because the next question, should we take a break real quick? We don't have much time. Uh yeah, there's like five minutes, so I mean maybe let's just power through it.
+
+[40:45] Power through? I think that's probably a good idea. Power, okay, power it is. Power. Uh okay.
+
+[40:50] So uh which leads to our next question. Uh yo, what up with you guys? Can't get enough of y'all anyway. Thank you very much, by the way, for not being able to get enough of us. I can certainly get enough of us, right, Sas?
+
+[40:58] Stas has enough of me uh all the time. Oh, wait, we have another Twitter. Okay. Uh Dave, I was wondering when your book is supposed to be put on the market. Well, uh, I have to finish writing it first.
+
+[41:09] Uh the fact that I have not written it is uh putting me in deep hot water with uh my uh publisher. But uh, you know, be you know sure that uh it's like like my top priority now is finishing this book. And but after I write it, it's still gonna be about a year before it comes under the market. So unfortunately, no time too soon. Um second question, more food related.
+
+[41:31] Been having a little trouble with stocks lately. I always blanch or roast my bones and uh skim skim skim, pass through a chinois and and cloth, like you know, a cheesecloth. Uh after reducing by half or more and chilling, I still notice there being too much suspended particulate, what's going on? Also, this refers to beef and chicken stock, not pork. Thank you very much, uh Philippe.
+
+[41:50] Okay. Uh look, there's an interesting article b uh on clarity and whatnot, uh, that I don't have time necessarily to go through in detail, but you can get the abstract for it online and take a look at it. And it's called The Effects of Cooking Temperatures on the Physiochemical Properties and Consumer Acceptance of Chicken Stock by Mark Krasnow, which came out in uh 200 and uh eleven. And they b they basically do cold start simmered at 85 Celsius for a long time. It's cold water start, a hot water start at 85, cold water start cooked at 99 Celsius, and uh hot water start cooked at um 99 uh Celsius, and they run through uh you know questions of whether which is clear, which is cloudy, which has higher protein, which has higher uh taste acceptance.
+
+[42:38] And I will just read um maybe their final results. Overall, the results of the study show that there is a clear physiochemical difference between stocks cooked at 85 Celsius, i.e. a simmer, and 99, which is right at the boil. The starting temperature of the water, however, did not greatly affect these properties. The assertion, however, that protein extraction is greater in cold started stocks was partially supported by the results of this study.
+
+[43:00] For the stocks cooked at 99 uh C, uh the one that was hot started had more dissolved protein than the one that was at 85. The 85 had more dissolved protein than the hot started at 85. Okay, so uh so so there you go. But you can go go read uh their paper on it because it's too complicated to suss out, you know, uh to suss out instantly. Um they did mention by the way that uh blanching beforehand was something they didn't treat as part of their study, but it's it's in there in the discussion, so you should definitely uh read about it.
+
+[43:32] But I'll give you my my my points, my points on it. Okay. Um so what you did is you said you uh blanch orose your bones first and then uh skim skim skim. Now the skimming is supposed to get the scum off the top that otherwise gets emulsified into the sauce. By the way, you do this initial thing where you skim off the initial stuff and then you want to boil the hell out of it for certain Chinese stocks because uh they actually want to emulsify the fat.
+
+[43:56] So they're using protein to emulsify the fat into your into your uh stock. And that's basic that's the idea for call like cream stocks or milk stocks. I happen not to like them too much, but I haven't had that much experience with them. But I'm just maybe just because I'm not used to them. I mean, I'm sure they're great in there when they're used properly, but I haven't had enough experience with it.
+
+[44:14] So uh so you want to do the opposite of that for a normal stock, which is to you want to bring it up to the boil uh and then skim the stuff that floats off to the top because that's gonna contain uh proteins that are gonna, if they get churned in, will help to emulsify the fat into your stock, which is gonna make it cloudy. Alright. So you so one thing I want to make sure you're not doing is that you're not um you're not um uh they're you're not boiling it too hard, right? The second thing is you say you pass it through a chinois and cloth, and then after reducing by half or more and chilling, there's too much suspended particulate. Here's what you need to do.
+
+[44:49] You need to uh pass it through a uh chinois and a cloth carefully, like ladle it. Don't upset it or stir it around too much, like pour it gently and whatnot. Then chill it first before you reduce it. If you reduce before you chill it, you're not gonna get all of the uh fat and stuff off the top. You're supposed to chill it.
+
+[45:08] There'll be a lay it'll separate into layers, you separate it and then scoop out the gelee, and then reduce the gelee. So maybe maybe uh that's the problem you're having. So the one problem you might be having boiling a little bit too hard, it sounds like you're skimming it enough, so that's probably not the issue. Um and the other thing is make sure you chill it thoroughly before you uh do any reduction. Um and if those aren't the problems, uh there could be other things like the type of uh I mean that maybe you're including bits of the chicken like uh certain gibblets can apparently cause cause cloudy stocks or whatnot.
+
+[45:43] But call you know, email us back and tell us what the issues are. Okay. Uh we're about to have to go but I just want to uh go one we have one last uh what is this Twitter or email coming in. Hey Dave uh Nastasha and Jack. First off just want to say the Changwa demo at SF Chefs last week was a great time.
+
+[45:58] I didn't make it to the cocktail demonstration at the tent, but I'm sure it was awesome. Thank you. I'm a big fan of iced coffee, usually cold brewed and sparkling water, but when I combine the two it isn't a good result. Any tips on how to make a sparkling iced coffee? I'm particularly looking at ways to improve the mouthfeel.
+
+[46:13] Also is there a way to make a cocktail version thanks Tim. Okay, very good question Tim. We'll take this as our last question today. There are certain uh coffee bars, for instance Blue Bottle in San Francisco, that serve you uh carbonated water with your uh with your espresso shots. And it's kind of interesting.
+
+[46:30] It's a different uh mouthfeel also Columba here in the U in uh New York you can get some carbonated water with your uh with your espresso shop but Nastasha you wouldn't like the carbonated water I think they serve San Benedetto which is not your favorite because you call it uh agua di boca. 'Cause it doesn't have a high enough carbonation level for you. Because Nastasha like me likes a very bubbly bubble, right? You don't like like a you don't like like a like a petillon, like a minor bubble. You like a major bubble.
+
+[46:53] Yeah, yeah, true, true. Uh and in that uh I am uh wholeheartedly agree. So this is one situation where I'm not gonna rant against Nastasha's food choices because we just one savor it. Okay. Um now the problem is is that i you get some very unusual results when you add um the bubbliness which has that sharp biting and people perceive as acidic, although I don't perceive it that way.
+
+[47:18] Uh I mean, you know the the science says that I do, but I don't feel about it that way. When that's mixed with coffee can be kind of strange. If you want to taste the only commercially carbonated coffee thing that I know of, there's a soda called Manhattan Special uh coffee soda, which I don't know whether it's only regional or not. Uh have you had that, Jack? I don't think it's in there right now.
+
+[47:39] No. Or Joe, have you had that? No. I have actually. Do you what do you think about it?
+
+[47:43] I think it's pretty awesome. Yeah? It's a local specialty though. Right, exactly. It's hard.
+
+[47:47] It's actually pretty hard to find, too. Yeah, and it well, it's new, it's not made in Manhattan. It's made on Manhattan Avenue in Brooklyn. Right. Yeah.
+
+[47:53] Manhattan Avenue special. Yeah, the factory is pretty close to here, actually, right? Yeah, yeah. But so what you should do is try to get a hold of that and then taste that to see kind of what the commercial uh version of it um is. But yeah, it is it is a unique, it is a unique uh kind of a flavor.
+
+[48:09] My only problem with Manhattan Special is that it's kind of too sweet. You know, what do you think, Joe? Too sweet? Or do you like it that way? Oh, I'm into it.
+
+[48:17] You're into it? So go get a hold a hold of that. One issue when you're making a cocktail and you want to carbonate it, uh or any sort of carbonated coffee beverage is uh coffee, especially espresso, which is what I deal with, um, has some uh foaming properties to it. And so uh it can foam like a like a weasel when you want to carbonate it. So when you uncap a carbonated uh coffee drink, especially espresso, which has a lot of suspended solids in it, you're gonna you're gonna get some serious foaming problem.
+
+[48:44] If you are a milk and coffee person and you want to carbonate it, the milk can have problems because you can get curdling reactions with certain milk-based things, especially as the alcohol level goes up. But uh you're even more gonna have an extreme, extreme foaming uh problem. And so uh you're gonna have to make a very small amount of it and then let it uh foam off in order in order to get it to uh to work properly. I'm gonna have to think more. I also is if anyone has a good carbonated coffee thing, uh please uh write in.
+
+[49:10] I'm interested because I haven't done enough experimenting with carbonation uh and coffee, but I definitely have experimented with it. When I make coffee drinks and I want them super foamy and creamy and cocktails, I don't use CO2, I use nitrous oxide, which makes a nice creamy beverage. And you can I've made many coffee cocktails with nitrous oxide, although they do foam, and that gives you uh the super creaminess that you get out of a fresh cup of coffee, but in a cold situation. So I would try nitrous instead of CO2 unless you really want the prickly texture of CO2, in which case um experiment away. Cooking issues.org.
+
+[50:00] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:24] Thanks for listening. Oh, you dare to do that.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five-generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit WhiteoakPastures.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[0:34] Joined in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. And of course, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How are you guys doing? Doing alright? Yeah, microphones aren't working over there, but they're doing good.
+
+[0:44] How are you doing, Stas? Yeah, Nastasha is trying to find someone who's willing to move uh the crap out of our uh studio area in Brooklyn in the back of Milk Bar Commissary. To our new space on 54 Eldridge Street, which until Eater actually showed up, they did not believe that we were not trying to open another bar there. Yeah. And when they showed up, we're like, here's one desk, here's another desk.
+
+[1:08] Look, a third desk. And they're like, oh, so it's not gonna be it. We're like, no. No. No.
+
+[1:14] It's our it's you know, it's Booker and Dax Equipment Company. It's our test our test place. But anyway, turns out that movers here in New York, unlike when you move it yourself, which is what Nastasha and I had to do last time, uh, make you put everything in a box. It's it's equipment. How the hell do you put a big piece of equipment in a box?
+
+[1:31] Am I supposed to just go get giant like washing machine boxes to put everything in? They said or shrink wrap it. So we use that like or shrink wrap it? Yeah. What is shrink wrapping doing?
+
+[1:39] I think you cover it in plastic and how's that helpful other than I get to destroy the earth a little more. They don't want to scratch the trucks with the equipment, the insides of the trucks. They don't want to scratch the inside of a moving truck. Right. They yeah.
+
+[1:51] With stuff that they're moving. Mm-hmm. This is it. This is happening in the real life? Mm-hmm.
+
+[1:56] This is what's really happening. Yes. Okay then. Hey, our mic works and we're doing well. Yeah?
+
+[2:02] Nice. Yeah. Good. Strong. Good.
+
+[1:59] I was a little worried about you. I was pretty sure that there was still air in the booth though, and that you were breathing. Hey, do you know about our fundraising party? Can I shamelessly plug that right now? Yeah, you are.
+
+[2:14] You must say uh plug away. Yeah, you're you're uh you're doing drinks. I am. Yeah. El Buho Mescal.
+
+[2:21] And uh we've got Absolute. We've got a whole bunch of stuff. September 9th at Roberta's from 5 to 8 p.m. It's our first fundraiser. How much are tickets?
+
+[2:31] 150. And and uh where do they purchase said tickets? That is Heritage Radio Network.eventbrite.com. Yeah. Nice.
+
+[2:39] And we'll take some of our techniques and put your money where your mouth is with our beverage, right? We've got Grammarcy Tavern and El Posto. I think Brooks is doing desserts and um You wrangled Brooks into doing it? We wrangled Bro, yeah, Brooks will be there. Nice.
+
+[2:52] Yep. Back 40 West, China Pacifico, uh Inside Park, St. Bart's, uh inside Inside Park at St. Bart's. Bunch of other chefs.
+
+[3:00] It'll be really cool. Nice, nice. And it's here at at the at the Robert's Pizzeria? Yep. In the backyard.
+
+[3:05] Yeah, so if you've never made the trek out to Brooklyn, now's your chance. Now's your chance to cross that river. You can meet us. And maybe Indie Jesus may be working in the event. I'm just putting that out there.
+
+[3:15] I don't know. Oh, we now you have to make it happen, Jack. I might have to make that happen. Yeah, you know, I'll see what strings I can pull. It's not an easy get.
+
+[3:23] Yeah, Nastasha, you're you're gonna come to the gig, right? Yes. Yeah, so you can come see Nastasha and like I think everyone should wear their best hipster outfit to come and visit Nastasha at the And you can get pictures with me and Indy Jesus. If Indy Jesus actually shows up. Right.
+
+[3:38] Well, he's works on Sundays. That's what we it's he's anti anti-Jesus. He's moving on a Sunday, but. No, look, you gotta get your your your your Bible straight. First of all.
+
+[3:43] That's supposed to work, but like one of the things that if you read the if you read the um kind of uh you know the apocryphal gospels, like one of the things Jesus used to get in trouble for all the time was healing people on the Sabbath. Well, no, that those gospels never made it into into Jersey speak. But uh yeah, so he used to do things like you know, cure people on the Sabbath, and that's one of the things he got in trouble for. You know, curing people at work. Work.
+
+[4:12] You think that stuff just happens curing people? Work. Anyway, okay. Um catch some stuff from before that I missed from a couple weeks ago. Barry Munkasey wrote in, because I don't think I got this.
+
+[4:23] Uh question on Twitter. Clearly, I am overcooking or people are overcooking shrimp in a shrimp boil. I didn't talk about this, did I Sas? I don't think so. Uh shrimp, sausage, corn, onion, potato, garlic, and Zataran spice.
+
+[4:34] Uh perfect sous vide timing recipe. Did I talk about this? I don't remember. I don't know. I don't remember whether I talked about it or not, but I think you might have.
+
+[4:40] Did I? Really? I feel like it might have. Well, don't cook shrimp sous-vide. Just cook all the parts separately, perfectly, and then recombine them at the end.
+
+[4:47] Yeah, yeah, you're right. I did. I talked about shrimp shelves. Delicious, delicious shrimp shells. That's right.
+
+[4:52] Yeah, okay. Alright. Alright, Barry, I got you covered. But I know this I did not mention. Pavlov at Pav1 Love or Pav Oneov uh on the Twitter sent in a picture to us of uh how he cooked 25,000 lobsters in a five-day period at a festival in Maine, using something that looked like a steam c giant kind of steam cleaner, huge pieces of equipment.
+
+[5:16] And his exact quote is, I felt bad until I ate them. Hopefully he did not eat all 25,000. The most I've ever eaten in one day is 10. Uh and uh that was the same day I found out I was allergic to cherries. So they thought it was lobsters for a long time that I was allergic to until cherry season came around the next year and sent me to the hospital again.
+
+[5:34] Crazy, right? Nutty. Anyways, uh, so I had something else to say about that. Oh, yeah, when I was a kid, check this out. For any of you that um, I don't know, clean aircraft equipment for a living.
+
+[5:44] There used to be in Oshkosh, every year in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, there's what's called a fly-in, where all the kind of experimental aircraft lunatics from all over everywhere, and also the old war bird uh nutties and everything show up and they fly in, and Oshkosh Airport is for that couple of days the busiest airport in the world. And you go there, and uh my dad used to fly seaplanes uh a lot. So we used to go to the seaplane party, which was a little off the way because he had to have a lake, and those guys had a giant like bro beer brats in 55 gallon drums and corn that they would cook in the steam cleaners that they would use to steam clean parts, like giant steam cleaned corn. That's what I used to eat as a kid. Maybe that's part of what influenced me to get to use dumb equipment to uh cook with.
+
+[6:26] Maybe. What do you think? Yeah, possible, right? Okay. Now, on to current questions.
+
+[6:32] Uh hi, Dave, Nastasha, and Jack. Shout out to Indie Jesus. And I'm gonna have to add the shout out to Joe. Remember, guys, give the shout-out to Joe. He he is a singer in a he's the front man of some sort of like hardcore punk band, true or false.
+
+[6:46] True. I've w why have we not heard any of the music on the on the radio program? Um maybe one of these days. So if you don't give him a shout-out, he is going he he is going to come find you. Pretty much, right?
+
+[6:59] I'm I'm extr I'm extremely scary person as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you probably don't know him unless you're here in the studio with us. I mean, you might know him separately, but in other words, yeah, odds are you don't, and he's a he's a scary man. He'll come find you.
+
+[7:11] I'm just telling you. Just telling you you should give him a shout-out. That's all. Okay. So Eddie Shepard writes in, I have a quick question, and also below a free uh well, free from me, not for you.
+
+[7:19] Anyway, kidding. Uh a link to the copy of my ebook. Um okay, as a longtime listener and having uh asked the odd question on the show before, I was hoping it was okay to ask a question slightly away from the tech side of things and more on aesthetics and subjectivity. Uh, I wonder to what extent uh you thought about the presentation of food affected the experience of eating it, whether it is something you see as critical to a dish, and if there are any examples or anecdotes you have relating to food either looking horrible and tasting amazing, or vice versa, beautifully presented but let down in flavor. I personally think that the setting you're in and the aesthetics of a dish can potentially have a big psychological influence on your enjoyment of the food, but also the flavors first and foremost.
+
+[7:55] If I can make a delicious dish look nice, then great, I will. But if altering it look uh compromises flavor, I wouldn't. I wondered what your thoughts might be, and also if there's anything you might favor stylistically in food uh presentation. Okay. Uh that's a great question.
+
+[8:10] Uh I think there is a very famous uh Spanish chef, uh very famous m mercurial Spanish chef, actually, that uh Nils and I were doing I think it was Nils and I. Might have been even before Nils was at No, I think Nils was there. Anyway, it's this huge event uh we had at the French Culinary Institute years and years ago, and uh all the big wigs were coming, like Ferran and and uh one Roca and all these guys. This is n none of those guys. Another very famous mercurial Spanish chef.
+
+[8:38] And uh not that Juan Roca is actually not, he's like a totally mellow guy. He didn't yell at anyone the entire time. The man the man's a complete uh he's he's very um he's a he's a gentleman, Juan Roca. Uh someday I'll get to go to his restaurant. Um anywho.
+
+[8:51] And Jordy, too, the brother, pastry chef. Very nice people. Anyway, um the So this guy uh is well known for kind of like hyper presentation with you know like lots of tweezers and whatnot. Um, you know, tiny, like you know, early on uh adopter of the the like the micro mini micro micro micro green tininess, right? And um he literally said during his demonstration, and it's stuck in my head forever, that uh it is not only important for the food to look good, it must taste good also.
+
+[9:25] And this stuck in my brain, and I've not been able to pry it free because it's exactly backwards. It's exactly backwards. It is important, like it's not only important that the food tastes good, it's important that it looks good too. That is a true statement, right? But um I kind of the my problem with food that's for presentation only is I think it leads to especially we're in an era right now where um you know a lot of food work is done on the internet, it's done in books, it's done on television programs, and it's done in demonstrations.
+
+[10:03] And so uh there's a lot of work that's done that um where you can tell that it was done for the look and not necessarily for the for the um for the taste. Like I call it, you know, cooking for demonstration. It's like you specifically make it so that it looks good in photos or in books or in uh in demos. And I mean I'm not saying you should shy away from the presence, but that's why like in a demo, I l I think it's important to give tastes out so that people actually know that you know what you're focused on is cooking and the flavor. Now, I think that you know, look, if you're cooking at home, it's it's one thing, it it has to look appetizing.
+
+[10:43] I don't really do a lot of plated work at home, except for I I used to on special occasions, but I don't really do it at home. At home, it's it's more about you know something that looks appetizing, but you know, in in a home style. But when you're doing a demo or a dish or a cocktail, I think it's a very important to have to have it look enticing and appetizing, or in a cocktail scenario, that have the pres the presentation of making it be something that um wets the person's appetite for what you're making uh and that looks good or looks compelling. And um there are dishes that obviously the your enjoyment of them is incredibly augmented by how they look. Things can be enchanting, captivating, uh, just in their look, and then um that makes it makes an already good tasting thing taste better.
+
+[11:28] Uh but you know nothing is worse than something that they've obviously spent a billion years making it look great and there's no flavor to it, or or the flavors uh clash and they don't work. I mean you've had that happen, Stas, right? Yes. Do you enjoy that? No.
+
+[11:42] She's not paying any attention. Okay. I got this guy to move our stuff, I think. Oh, well, okay. All right, so Nastasha's not paying attention to what I'm saying during the radio show, but did in fact find a place a guy that's gonna move our stuff, so kudos there.
+
+[11:53] Uh now there's another side to it, which i is also true, and you allude to in in in your question, and that is that I have things that we have made that are freaking delicious, like delicious, great, and yet I won't ever serve them. Why? Because they're hideously ugly. You know, like a drink that looks like a murky brown mass and not like brown in a good sort of whiskey way, like just nasty. And so, yes, there are there are situations where you know looks trump how good something tastes just because I s I won't be able to get it past someone's lips.
+
+[12:28] Same way, like I can make you a piece of chicken that looks like it's still bloody, cooked through all the way, no one will eat it. Why? Because it's visually repellent to them. And so I think both uh both are important, but I think you know, you're gonna steer yourself right if you focus on flavor first, and then uh after that, like, you know, like how can this presentation be um best achieved, right? I mean that that's my feeling.
+
+[12:53] Now, the second thing we have in from Eddie is Eddie just has a new book available, I believe, exclusively on the iPad through your uh through your iTunes, and it's called uh Modernist, uh what's it called? Modernist Vegetarian, right? Modernist vegetarian. Let me look at the exact title of the book because I downloaded it. Um Modernist Vegetarian, right, by Eddie Shepherd.
+
+[13:11] And uh, so it's it's yeah, I read it. I read yeah, I didn't read it fully because I only got it this morning, but I I looked through all the recipes, and uh a lot a lot of uh a lot of interesting recipes, some that you can use without a lot of heavy-duty equipment, some that require a lot of heavy duty equipment. Um, but you know, very well, very well clean photographed, a lot of interesting stuff. And I think you know, one of the first times I've seen someone exclusively try to do a modern a modern take on uh strictly vegetarian. So good.
+
+[13:40] Kudos. Everyone, you know, should go check it out. You can get a free sample on the iTunes, uh sent to your iPad, and then decide whether you want to pay the paltry meager price of I think it's like $6.99. So it's not a giant, it's not a giant investment. Um thing he uses quite a bit, actually, that I haven't used, I'm ashamed to say it, we haven't experimented with it, is uh the per Purecoat B790, which is um, you know, it's something from National Starch and uh can be used to make like films and leathers and glasses and stuff.
+
+[14:08] And we haven't really played with that, I don't think too much, uh, Styles. Maybe I should you know I hate it when someone brings something uh out like this, and then I'm like, man, I haven't I shouldn't have used that more. Man, there it is. So we'll we'll try to get some practicing with the pure code B790. And uh we appreciate that uh you gave me a uh a shout out on uh a couple of techniques in the book.
+
+[14:27] Uh one thing is on your methyl cellulose, I'd like to know are you using F50? It looks like you're using F50. Remember to always call out the brands of the methyl cell that you are using. All right. Uh this is a shout out to uh Michael in Oakland.
+
+[14:41] I still have your Leucuma Pure problem on my mind, but I'm gonna wait to answer until I get back from the Columbia because I'm gonna mess with uh Lukey Lucima Variants while I'm down there and figure out really good solutions for you. And with that, let's go to our first commercial break. Call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. So I could love you twice as much as I do.
+
+[15:04] I'd have 11 arms to embrace you. For us to idolize you each time. You're listening to I Wish I Were Twins by Plexophonic. What couldn't full lips do? When four is here, you say that I'm yours.
+
+[15:21] I wish that I were twins. You great big baby kins. So I could love you. Wide Oak Pastures is a hundred and forty-six-year-old multi-generational family farm that works in cooperation with nature to produce artisan beats that is safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to eat. Well, I feel we ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated.
+
+[15:52] We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit Wideopastures.com. I wish that I would twins. You get big baby kins. So I could love you twice as much as I do.
+
+[16:11] I'd have four loving arms to embrace you. For eyes to idolize you each time I face you with two hot five And uh welcome back to Cooking Issues. Okay. Uh Matt writes in, hey Dave and Stas. Uh I recently bought a centrifuge on the eBay.
+
+[16:31] And I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions or resources for cool things I can do with it. There are a few ideas in modernist cuisine, but I want to take it further. Also, do I need to buy special bottles for the rotor or will a uh basic mason jar, etc. do the trick? I see there are centrifuge bottles for sale around the web, but they are expensive, and I hate to lay down that kind of cash if I can go cheaper.
+
+[16:49] Any thoughts? Matt. Okay, do not put a mason jar in there. Do not put a mason jar into your centrifuge. A couple of things I need to know uh before uh before I go on.
+
+[16:59] Congratulations, first of all, on uh the centrifuge purchase. Um you know I I use a centrifuge every day, uh, and we do mainly juice clarification with it. You're gonna need to go out and buy uh the enzyme Pectanex Ultra SPL, which is available at ModernistPantry.com. Even though, like, are they they what's the story? They they're no more love for us, huh?
+
+[17:23] Anyways. Anyway, you can buy Pectanex Ultra SPL at modernistpantry.com, and you're gonna need that with your centrifuge um to do a lot of the clarification work, assuming that you have a lower speed centrifuge. Remember, the guys at Modernist Cuisine have a centrifuge that can easily do like 48,000 times the force of gravity. Most likely yours doesn't do that. If it does do that, you definitely shouldn't think about putting a mason jar anywhere near it.
+
+[17:44] Second thing is the centrifuge, you need to make sure that the rotor and buckets are in good shape, that they're not dented or messed up. Thirdly, you need to clean the hell out of that centrifuge. You need to bleach the hell out of that centrifuge, and you need to take the rotor and pressure cook it to get rid of any sort of biological craziness that might be going on and then bleach the hell out of it again. I think that large amounts of bleach soaking will kill almost everything. I need to I need better information on how to properly sanitize something against prions, for instance.
+
+[18:17] But you if you don't know what was in the centrifuge, you have real problems. Second of all, I don't know what kind like again, what kind of centrifuge you have, but um the the bottles that go into centrifuge rotors are uh they're tough for a reason. They're gonna go undergo a lot of stress. I spin directly in my buckets, right? Although I'm the only guy that does it.
+
+[18:38] Everyone else is like, really? You spend directly in the buckets? I'm like, yes, I spin directly in the buckets. Um never let detergent touch your buckets. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:46] Because the detergent can uh negatively affect the aluminum uh buckets. Uh I have purchased the expensive centrifuge bottles and I have found plastic uh bottles that work in centrifuge rotors, but they tend to fail somewhat. So it you like uh back at the FCI, I had a super speed centrifuge that I could do like 22,000 times the force of gravity in safely, and we used to use uh ketchup squeeze in uh in that thing. And the ketchup squeeze, they worked okay, right, Stas. But every once in a while they would collapse and then they would collapse.
+
+[19:19] And then guess what? They've collapsed. Um, so it you know it's a matter of be careful. Go on to cookingIssues.com, look at the centrifuge section specifically related to safety. You need to be safe with a centrifuge.
+
+[19:33] You need to balance the centrifuge before you spin it, and don't put anything in there that can break and fly apart. And uh, because there's a couple of things, right? There's not just like the broken glass and your centrifuge. If you break something in the centrifuge and then you go unbalanced, then your centrifuge becomes unbalanced, which then becomes a secondary danger. So you have to really make sure that everything is okay and in tip top shape.
+
+[19:54] On the notion of centrifuge, though, so here's the thing. I think I mentioned this on the radio show a couple times is that when I whenever I go do uh demos, they're they're always like, yo, come to a tech demo. And I'm like, okay, what can you get me? Can you get me a centrifuge? And they're always like, no.
+
+[20:11] Unless it's Japan. Unless it's Japan. They park high at Tokyo, baller. Even Nastasha, by the way, Nastasia does not like basically thinks that everyone is like a useless moron. Pretty much.
+
+[20:24] Right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's fair to say. Yeah.
+
+[20:28] So for her, especially people that help us out in demos. No offense to those of you that have helped us out in demos. But like, uh, but like the Japanese guys at the Park Hyatt, it was the only time I've ever heard her say, man, these guys are on top of things. They're good people. They're good people.
+
+[20:46] They're good people. And like for Nastasha, like that means you walk on water. That's like, that's it. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:53] You're like, you know, that's it. Okay. So uh so centrifuge is tough to get. Now, here's the reason why centrifuge is tough to get. They're big, they're expensive, and they're not yet uh in uh a lot of kitchens, so not a lot of kitchen people have access to them.
+
+[21:07] Now, centrifuge I use at the Booker Index and at the lab and at the school, they're all basically the same unit. The one that Wiley has, same style unit. Um most people are using you know, crat Chad uh and uh Christy, Tad Solomon, Christy Pope, same same kind. It's three liters bench top, does four thousand times the force of gravity, right? And that's what I've always called the sweet spot in centrifuges.
+
+[21:31] Uh now that is unreasonable uh for uh most people at home because it's too large, it's too expensive, and you're not gonna use it that much, right? That's clearly in kind of the divorce/slash breakup with your significant other for bringing it into the house kind of range of things to do is to bring a centrifuge like that into the house. Even I do not have one of those suckers in my house, and I have pushed very far with weird crap in my house before. There is a centrifuge I just purchased to take with me to Columbia that I'm gonna run some tests on this week and see whether or not it's okay. It's available Amazon Prime for under 200 bucks.
+
+[22:06] And it it only does, I think 1300 times the force of gravity, but I've done some initial experiments with Pectine X Ultra SPL and other clarifying aids, and I think I can get it to work at that uh level. Not as well and not as fast as the one that I have at Booker Index, but pretty good. Also, uh the cool thing, I mean the centrifuge is very small, so it really does a small amount uh per spin. It does a hundred and twenty uh milliliters per spin, which is a little a little over four ounces. And this is useless for a bar because please, four ounces, come on.
+
+[22:39] But uh for testing at home and for making a couple of drinks for you know you and your family, uh this could be a viable thing to at least let you play with centrifugation and and what you can do with it. And so I I'll be testing this week the hundred and eighty dollar um, you know, you know, 120 milliliter centrifuge. It weighs 10 pounds and is less than a foot on each side, so could be good, right? I'll let you guys know next week whether it works or not. I hope it does because otherwise I'm out 200 bucks.
+
+[23:12] Uh but didn't that be cool? Oh, yeah. See, Nastasha's really good with this stuff. This is why I have her around. Be like, just send it back if you don't like it.
+
+[23:20] Yeah. Um, but uh, but this way we can always have one of those things when we go do demos. Yeah? How much does it weigh? 10 pounds.
+
+[23:29] So it's nothing compared to the crap we carry around. Mm-hmm. I'll carry the if you can scrap it to my back, I'll carry the world. Okay. Uh okay.
+
+[23:39] Uh Rob uh Trapaz writes in about uh a couple things. Carpano uh and antica formula vermouth, which is one of our favorites. Anyway, uh we use it, uh we use the hell out of it at the bar even though it's uh absurdly expensive. Not absurdly expensive, but it's not cheap. Right?
+
+[23:54] Right. Okay. Uh I recently discovered uh Carpano Antica Formula Vermouth, and I've been enjoying uh Manhattan's with it like never before. My problem is that by the ounce, it takes a long time to go through a bottle. You should drink more, Rob.
+
+[24:06] That's the problem. I'm kidding. I'm not I'm not advocating that. Okay. Um the bottle is kept in my refrigerator with a vacuum stopper, but uh it takes on an oxidized flavor towards the end of the bottle and takes up a lot of room.
+
+[24:19] How would you recommend I rebottle it? I have a bottle capper for glass bottles and a CO2 tank available. Should other lower proof uh liquors like Lilae, Cookie Americano, Dubanay, or Aperall be stored in similar quantities or under refrigeration? Uh and then there's a separate question. Let me deal with this one first.
+
+[24:36] Okay. This is an excellent question. Uh Vermouth definitely does oxidize. And uh this is a problem we come across in the bar all the time. I wouldn't use.
+
+[24:44] Here's the problem with CO2. If you purge out with CO2, you're apt to get like a light tingling in eventually in the bottle. What we use in the bar, we make a bottle of Manhattan. When we do a bottle of Manhattan, we dilute the vermouth in in the whiskey, and it ends up being a lower proof when we're done than the vermouth was on its own, I think. Or it's about about the same.
+
+[25:10] But the upshot is that it oxidizes even more in uh in a pre-diluted Manhattan than it does in its own bottle, and so we have to have a way to keep them from oxidizing. So all of our low-proof things like vermouth in the bottle, anything like that, not only do we store it uh very cold, actually a little bit below freezing, but not below its own freezing point, is we'll drop a little bit of liquid nitrogen into the bottle open. Uh the liquid nitrogen will then rest the cap on top, and you'll see a bunch of vapor coming out of the top of the bottle that's purging out the air, and then as soon as it uh stops uh actively uh pushing nitrogen out, we cap it, right? Um there are other commercial systems based on nitrogen that you can buy that are fairly cheap, like wine saver um things, and that you can use to purge out the headspace. If you've purged a head space out of your uh drink and cap it, you're good to go.
+
+[26:08] Here's the problem. Uh nitrogen, I mean we use it in liquid nitrogen form, so it's sitting on top of the drink and getting all the air out. Nitrogen itself is actually slightly um nitrogen is slightly uh lighter than air. So it's gonna float out of the bottle, and so you can't actually just dump liquid nitrogen into it and then uh wait a long time and then cap it. But you can buy on the internet, you can just look it up.
+
+[26:29] Uh you can uh buy uh argon based system. So if you look at roughly the the molecular mass, average molecular mass of air, it's about 28.97, right? Uh so oxygen heavier than air, you need to per purge it out heavier than the average air, nitrogen slightly lighter, carbon dioxide heavier, so you could actually roll carbon dioxide in there slowly and purge out the air, which is how I make uh carbonated cocktails. But again, and that'll work. I'm just worried that you might have a little residual kind of uh Pringly thing.
+
+[27:02] Although try it, it might work, you know, like just like like snuff some carbon dioxide in there a couple of times to purge out the headspace and then cap it. I mean, that would technically work. But argon is a real money maker rocking in at 39 uh 39.9 um as a molecular weight. So it's it's heavier enough, not quite as heavy as carbon dioxide, but much heavier than air. You can buy fairly cheap little argon cartridges and purging units uh on the internets on the Amazon, and you can use that to purge out uh all of your bottles.
+
+[27:33] If you want to just do it the way that you said you're doing it, I mean that you have with carbon dioxide, you don't want to purchase anything extra. I'd be interested to know uh how that works. But we I don't do it to Aperol, by the way. Aperol is the one thing on that list that I don't really worry about. I also don't worry that much about my Dubonet, but maybe I should.
+
+[27:49] Uh we definitely worry about Cokey Americano, we definitely worry about our Lilae, and we definitely definitely definitely worry about our carpano, especially after it's been mixed with um with with the booze and diluted. I'll say this. Uh we have run tests uh for a couple of weeks with uh diluted uh vermouth in bottles that have been LN purged, and I would like I say recommend Argon or perhaps CO2, and then capped with no oxygen in them, and they are dead stable. Uh at least under refrigeration, they're dead stable, so you can handle it and and it's okay. Um especially you said you had a bottle capper, right?
+
+[28:29] Yeah, you got a bottle capper for glass bottles, boom, you're done. Uh I have to remember in my head whether Carpano will accept a bottle cap, whether the Carpano bottle accepts a bottle cap. Champagne bottles accept a bottle cap, but the carpano bottle might not accept the bottle cap. Okay, listen, I'm gonna go to my second commercial break and then come back with Rob's second question. 718497, 2128, cooking issues.
+
+[28:55] Every night you'll hear croon of a Russian. Just a plaintiff little tune when baby starts to cry. Rockabye, my baby. Somewhere there may be a land that's free for you and me and a Russian lullaby. You're listening to Russian lullaby by Plexophonic.
+
+[29:54] Every night you'll hear crown of a rush. Just a plaintiff, the little tune when baby starts to cry. Rock goodbye. And welcome back to cooking issues. We have a caller.
+
+[30:15] Caller, you're on the air. Uh hi Dave. Uh this is Martin Woodhouse calling from Germany. Uh I had a couple of uh equipment questions, just uh equipment recommendations I was looking for. So the first one uh was for uh what we would call in the UK a barbecue, but I think you would call in the US a grill.
+
+[30:35] Correct. Yeah, don't don't tell uh don't tell a Southern American that uh a barbecue is a cooking instrument, because then you have to like listen to them for half an hour about grilling versus barbecue. You don't want to do it. Yeah, so a charcoal grill basically. So we I I had a Weber before, uh and and then and it was it was okay.
+
+[30:54] I had it a long time, but uh I'm getting some I need to get a new one basically, because I I moved countries and and left the old one behind. So uh have have you is there anything particularly that's any good or or are they all much of a much north? That's a good question. Uh you know, on grills, uh for instance, Jeffrey Steingarden hates Webbers. Hates them.
+
+[31:15] Uh because uh you can't adjust the uh coal height effectively in them. You know what I mean? I mean what Weber what Webbers are good at with that kettle shape is kind of allowing a pile of coals to radiate out uh kind of either side. They're also relatively inexpensive, which is I think why a lot of people um use them. And you know, for me, I mean like the the problems with grills, uh you know, I prefer like a nice heavy grate that can that can really absorb a lot of energy and then and then give it back, but a lot of it's about versatility I always want the biggest grill I can possibly get but the flip side of having a giant grill is that you know you basically need to fire the whole thing or or you lose lose a lot of heat a lot of the grilling I tend to do a lot of super high heat grilling like very fast especially like finishing off sous vide and stuff like that you know so at any rate like larger grills give you more versatility because if you're going to do a high low situation or have the coals on one side and cook in the other you have more space to do it with but the problem is is they tend to consume a lot of charcoal.
+
+[32:20] So if you're only going to be like how many people are you cooking for uh no more than sort of I mean eight at the absolute max but usually more like but sometimes down to two. Right. Yeah I mean two uh I mean like but that's a huge difference right like cooking grilling for eight and grilling for two is a is a is a giant giant difference. Um you know I've never used any of the smaller like theoretically more fuel cons uh conserving uh grills like uh for instance the the egg that a lot of people seem to like uh yeah I saw those on Aki and Alex's blog right do they like 'em yeah but uh but they're really expensive. Yeah I mean how's a coal cost in in uh like hardwood charcoal how is that expensive in Germany or no?
+
+[33:07] No not really but like I think the the the eggs can be up to like five six hundred euros. That's quite expensive for a grill. Yeah. I mean, I I inje like, you know, I've grilled on um a grill is really a lot about how how you handle it. I I would go for one with a big with a nice like I like cast I like the cast iron grates.
+
+[33:27] They're not necessary, but I like them a lot better than those thin wire craps. Um and I usually go for a larger size just because it gives me more flexibility, just be willing to suck up a lot of extra charcoal because you're gonna go through a lot more charcoal than you ordinarily would. I have never used a grate that has like uh uh I mean a a grill that has a really nice system for adjusting the height of the grill surface, but Bobby Flay told me once that he had one that did that, and Steingarden once told me that he had one that that did that. Um, which would obviously be useful because it would allow you to get different different heats without having to lift the thing and shuffle the coals around, which as everyone knows is a messy pain in the butt. And I know it's sort of a a dirty concept for food snobs, but like gas is Yeah, you know what?
+
+[34:13] Like I like uh so I've used gas assists in uh look, here's the other thing, right? I mean, like everybody knows that co coal is great, but sometimes you just want to fire the sucker up and run, right? Yeah, because it's dirty and it takes time to heat up and stuff, so yeah, I mean f you you've used chimney starters before though, right? Pardon? You've used a chimney starter before, right?
+
+[34:34] For coal. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but it's it's just it if if it was gas, I'd use it more often, I think. Right, right.
+
+[34:40] I mean, uh I've I used to have a unit a long time ago that I could go either way with, and I don't know whether I was legally allowed to go either way or whether I literally just threw an extra grate over top of the burners and went went crazy. I think it might be the latter. So that I could do I I'm a big fan of flexibility, and so you know, if you're gonna use the grill more often, especially in the summertime, if you have a gas thing on it and you fire it up. I mean, the one issue with most gas burners is that they just don't have the uh the oomph that you need, right? Yeah.
+
+[35:11] And so, you know, and if you, you know, and as I as I do believe kind of the modernist cuisine mantra on uh what's going on, which is that the flavor of grilling isn't really from the coal itself, but from fat dripping on said coal, uh vaporizing and coming up, then if you have enough power in your burners, then you can do something like chuck lava rocks onto it and then use those lava rocks to get that kind of uh feeling of the of the stuff hitting it and going down. I think that most people's gripe with the gas uh grills is that just they're just not hot enough to get that kind of a uh of a thing to to happen. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um But no, I don't think I don't think you're a bad person for wanting a gas grill.
+
+[35:55] You know what I mean? I I I prefer charcoal, but gas is just you know, it it just it's just more convenient. And then the second equipment recommendation is is my wife broke my immersion blender, which isn't too bad because it was crappy. Uh but she's she's she she said she'd buy me as kind of a combo compensation and birthday present, uh uh pretty much whichever one I want. Uh what would you go for?
+
+[36:21] Uh seeing as I don't think you've you and Dave Chank have built your new one yet. No, I haven't. Um I look I only have uh I mean not crappy ones, but I don't have really the the good ones. I don't have a good one either. Uh you try the BAMX or I was about to say the Ban the Bamex seems to be the one that it's the only one I've heard people say that they everyone loves having an immersion blender, but I've never had anyone say that they actually liked the one that they have.
+
+[36:50] The exception is the BAMEX. Um the downside of the BAMEX is that it um it obviously the the the shaft doesn't pop off of the BAMEX to clean is kind of the one the one downside it has. The upside uh for my uh just vi never having used it is that it's got a lot more clearance around the bell for um for fluids to go in and out, and one of the main problems well the first main problem with with immersion blenders is splashing in improperly sized cups with not enough liquid. The second main problem with them is cavitation around the bell in thicker products. For instance, you know, I use immersion blenders to do pancake batter, you know, stabby, but I do, you know what I mean?
+
+[37:34] Uh and um uh and you get a lot of cavitation issues with the standard stamped steel bells that are on most um kind of consumer grade immersion blenders, and the and the BAMX four-prong open kind of blade guard, I think is not gonna have as much cavitation problem as those. And so if I had to go out and spend my 99 bucks on one, I'd probably get that. Not having not having tested it, I might take the jump and get it. Is that I mean also like you know, like some of the other ones, like I happen to have a KitchenAid now, and I don't hate it, but I don't love it. It came with a bunch of other attachments, which I don't even know where they are.
+
+[38:10] I've never used them. Yeah, you know, they're they're more expensive over here, so like the the price difference between a BAMEX and the Kitchen Aid, there really isn't gonna be one when you buy it here, so really, yeah. And that little chopper that they sell to me is fundamentally useless. Uh the the whisk is fundamentally useless. Have you ever seen someone use one of those?
+
+[38:30] Nothing looks more ridiculous than using that whisk on the end of an immersion blender. It's crazy. Yeah, it's yeah, whatever. It's it makes no sense. And eventually, the the um eventually that the connection starts going wonky where it clicks in, and so now mine makes awful grinding noises when I when I when I'm using it.
+
+[38:48] So all said, I do like being able it makes makes me allow allow me to be a lot lazier to just pop off the end of the stick and put it into water. So I'm not gonna lie to you and say that that is not a benefit, but I might go with the BAMX uh the next time around. RoboCoo makes an incredibly expensive commercial one where the actual bell pops off to clean, which seems like it would be nice. But uh I believe BAMX also has the feature that you can remove the blade. Is that true?
+
+[39:16] I think so, yeah. Yeah, that seems like it's gonna be a bad idea because it seems like uh something's gonna break there, but the biggest downfall, even with the removable stem uh immersion blenders, is trying to clean underneath that blade, which is a huge hassle. And so the ability to remove that blade, uh, assuming that it it's not a failure point for the mechanism, which obviously it has a possibility of being, it would be a huge boon to cleaning. I detest cleaning out the uh bottom of the blades of uh of immersion blenders. And I had one equipment recommendation for you.
+
+[39:49] Uh you you mentioned tablets and and that's what I do for a living. So if you're looking for a small scale tablet press, the the the thing you want is called Arriva R I V A mini press. Write that down, Stas. You got that? Mm-hmm.
+
+[40:04] R I V A mini press? Uh you'll uh probably they're quite expensive. They're about ten grand, 20 grand new. But if you can pick one up from a pharmaceutical company, uh sort of from an auction. Right.
+
+[40:18] Uh you you probably get one for way less than that because there's pharmaceutical companies going out of business left, right, and center. So uh and if you get one, it will probably be pretty clean. Uh because they they have to have log books and stuff for when you're using them to produce products. So I wouldn't worry too much in terms of uh too much in terms of contamination, as long as you can kind of get it all visibly clean, uh and then and then wipe, you know, clean it with uh uh some some solvent, uh something like uh isopropile alcohol or or something like that, uh you'll probably not be too bad to go. And how big is it?
+
+[40:56] Dishwasher size, small enough? Uh it's probably about the size of uh uh I'm trying to think of uh something about the right size. Uh uh probably the size of uh floor standing Apple Mac. Ah, nice. That's that's totally doable.
+
+[41:18] So it's it's a it's a bench top unit. It's a single station press, but it's it's a really really nice piece of kit. There Reaver is an Argentinian company, but they're they're one of the standard sort of research and development tablet presses. So like it's it's not really really fast or anything, but you you it's it's because you only need the one punch, it's it's pretty versatile in terms of you don't have to buy s stacks and stacks of the the tooling for it. You only need one set.
+
+[41:48] Nice. I appreciate that. Hey, you weren't uh you you didn't call in with the question about trying to get your kids to eat things, did you? Yeah, I did. Okay, listen, you this is a lucky day that you called in.
+
+[41:58] We have someone who has responded, a very long email. I think uh we're gonna get Jack to read the response, correct? Well, we I might have to substitute. I I mean I can't really feel Jack's shoes, but I have I have the email here. Alright, so Joe, the front what's the name of your band, Joe?
+
+[42:14] Oh, it's called Big Ups. Alright, so he's a front man. I'm sure you can do a good read job. Joe's gonna read the response to your question on how to get your kids to eat stuff from Geek Goddess. Go Joe.
+
+[42:25] Dear Dave and Nastasha the Hammer. I have all kinds of food issues myself, and I was thinking of that family in Germany whose kids have lost their minds and will only eat pasta. Has said father tried sherimi? You know that delightful crab like seafood product that serious chefs loves a hate? Well, my brother, master of picky eaters, I of course would eat anything anyway.
+
+[42:49] Uh my mother or my brother was getting desperate and found the stuff and brought it home. He got to it before she even had a chance to feed it to him, and because I won't eat anything day. So have you tried the Surimi? Will your kids eat the Surimi? What's Surimi?
+
+[43:09] So it's that crab it's that imitation. It's it's what? Imitation crab product. Okay, how'd you spell it? Uh S-U-R-I-M-I.
+
+[43:19] And it really it's the stuff that they put in fake California rolls and whatnot. I mean it is Oh, like crab stick type shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry.
+
+[43:27] That's alright. That's alright. I agree. Look, it is a st it it is like a crazy, like processed food stuff. And then and it's like, you know, uh, they evaluate various fish products for their ability to be pressed into surimi because it's all about you bleach out any sort of natural flavor it has and then you turn them into kind of uniform sticklets.
+
+[43:45] Uh but uh d would your kids uh would your kids like that maybe? That was that was her first. They might not dig the texture. Yeah. Uh but we can we can try it.
+
+[43:55] We can try it. She also she also suggested string cheese. String cheese. Spring cheese, which string cheese we already do. Yeah, but and then insulted the quality of pizza that you're able to obtain in Germany.
+
+[43:59] I believe she insulted the quality of pizza. Is that true, Joe? Uh yes, that she definitely did. Yeah, in fact, she's condolences. Yes, condolences to you for your like what was the next one?
+
+[44:13] Um then there's uh a quinoa pasta. Oh, yeah. But she said that your kids might not like the quinoa because of the uh the the taste of the quinoa. That's kind of a bit worthy for our family. Yeah.
+
+[44:23] There's a coin she also recommends corn-based pasta, right? Um I'm just kind of scanning through here. Yeah. Well, she says that there's uh that it does contain corn, yeah. Or something I would try.
+
+[44:36] Yeah. Yeah. Kiddings corn. I've had corn-based pasta. It is not pasta, but it tastes okay, actually.
+
+[44:41] Okay. It's like it like rice pasta is horrible. Uh corn pasta is like I say, it's not pasta, but it's uh it's it's okay. But yeah, you're trying to get away from the the kind of boiled starch in general, right? Yeah.
+
+[44:54] Like not just you don't want to just switch the boiled starch, right? In which case I could just, you know, make you make soba or something like that, which I've been working. I'm working on the soap. I don't know if I mentioned that on the air, but I've been working on the soba problem. Uh but uh yeah, hopefully you're trying to switch to it.
+
+[45:06] She had another another kind of a loony lunier thing towards the end, didn't she? Uh uh yes. Um wait well There's something about kangaroo on here. Oh yeah, she's been cooking kangaroo meat. Maybe maybe your maybe your kids can eat some Joey.
+
+[45:22] She she's like, I don't know. This is an incredible email, by the way. It is several pages. I think we should just put that email. We're gonna put that can we put that email, Joe, up just as a response on the Heritage Radio site as a response?
+
+[45:34] Uh yeah, I can't I have to check with the higher ups, but I don't see why not. It's it's long, and anyway, you can read her entire response. You can read her entire response there. I'm not sure if your kids are having trouble eating other things, I'm not sure kangaroo is gonna be the best. I think that's the answer.
+
+[45:50] I mean, hey kids, remember that cute animal that you like? Here it is. Eat it. You know what I mean? I don't know.
+
+[45:56] Like even my kids who will eat almost nothing but will try weird stuff and don't mind like dead animals, I think they might pause with a kangaroo. Yeah, I think I we we we haven't really got to the link between furry things and what's on the plate yet. Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Well, I tend to reinforce it.
+
+[46:16] I tend to reinforce it with my kids. I'm like, hey, eat your hamburger, a cow died for that. And they're like, and then but then it comes and bites me on the butt because they're like, Daddy, did a cow die for my hamburger? Yes, a cow died for your hamburger. Like, did it does a cat does any animal have to die for the pasta?
+
+[46:29] No, no animal has to die for the pasta. So yeah, you have to keep on going on. So once you make a statement like that, you have to live with it for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? Or at least for the first, you know, five years, whatever.
+
+[46:39] Anyway. So we're gonna try and post this on the web, and uh, we hope that helps, and thanks for the tablet press uh info. All right. Alrighty. I got one more that I'm gonna handle Rob's second question before on my way out.
+
+[46:51] He says, uh, also, how do you make shelf stable maraschino style or bourbon cherries? All the recipes I call uh for uh refrigerated storage for a period of weeks, and I want to keep them in uh at cellar temperatures for up to a year. Rob Traz. Okay. First of all, uh Toby Chicchini, the bartender, like uh better known as the bartender who kind of you know made the Cosmo to drink.
+
+[47:16] Um also writes for the New York Times, nice gent. He uh has been making uh cherries for uh many, many a year, and his recommendations are that you uh first of all, you need a high proof uh liquor. If you want it to last a long time, you gotta use a high-proof liquor. But second of all, it's the type of cherry you use. He tried various different types of cherry.
+
+[47:35] He happens to have uh, I think morellos, I'm not sure, some type of sour cherry in in his uh in his garden, and those are the ones that he uses, or he sources. Uh he says he's tried to do his cherries with uh sweet cherries and that they're insipid, useless um things. I will tell you this. Uh back before I was allergic to cherries when I could test these things, I had a cherry once that was uh 50 or 60 years old that had been stored in um like almost straight, like super high proof uh alcohol that um my stepfather's grandfather kept in the basement uh in in Connecticut, and they were put up uh in the in the 20s, and I was eating them in the in the 90s, uh uh 80s or 90s, and they were still good that number of years later, and the secret I think is the high proof ethanol. Now, if you want to use a little bit of technology to make sure that you're gonna be okay, uh this his secret was not don't remove the uh I mean whatever, it's like old Italian wives' tale, but don't remove the stem.
+
+[48:36] If you remove the stem, it goes mushy, it turns to crap, you gotta leave the stem in. That's the secret. That's what they used to say. Not with that accent, though, because they're from Boston, but I can't do a Boston accent. Anyways, uh, but you might want to try, if you uh do want to remove the stem or whatever, you might uh and the issue with it is I don't know how long you need to soak it because um it's very hard to get um things to permeate the uh cell walls, I mean the uh skin of things like cherries, but you might try a soak in novo-shaped pectin methyl esterase and a little bit of calcium.
+
+[49:08] Um that enzyme along with calcium will firm up the fruit immensely, and I've used that enzyme to uh make, for instance, uh raspberries that you could boil without them breaking. Uh so it really does firm up cell walls quite a bit. Um, and it's not readily available, but uh, you know, it is available. It's called Novo Shape is the brand name uh from um novozymes, and it's a pectin methyl esterase. Uh now, so I don't know how long it would take to soak through a cherry.
+
+[49:39] We're gonna run some tests ourselves at the bar, hopefully, if we can get around to it. Um, but it definitely works on other things. Then high proof ethanol, and you might want to dope a tiny bit of calcium into that high-proof ethanol if you can. It's not gonna be very soluble because calcium will help help also crosslink the pectin and keep those suckers uh nice and uh you know not have them break down and turn to mush. Good luck with it!
+
+[50:02] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[50:34] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing. From cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinary center dot com.
+
+[0:18] Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12. Roughly 12, 1245, here on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:46] Joined with Joe and Jack in the engineering room, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, as always sitting next to me. How you doing, guys? Good. Good? Yeah.
+
+[0:53] Yeah? Everyone good? Uh good. So uh I'm glad I got to do today's show because right after we have our weekly Roberta's lunch, with which Nastash and I always enjoy, thanks to the radio station. They give us the free lunch.
+
+[1:05] That's what we work for here, people, by the way. In case you were wondering what the reward for the show is, it's the free lunch. Uh but uh after that I'm going to the airport and going to Colombia, my favorite South American country. Of course it's the only South American country I've gone to, but it is uh Panama. Uh Central.
+
+[1:21] Well, yeah, the Panamanians think Panama is is South America, whereas because it's part of the skinny, skinny, skinny part, which I consider to be Central America, I call it Central American, but that kind of pisses them off because they consider themselves South American. I was like, if it's not Central America, then why do we you know what why is the canal there? Because it's the skinny part. In fact, it's the skinniest part. The skinniest part.
+
+[1:41] Right or wrong. Right. Yeah? Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[1:44] So uh Panama being my favorite Central American country I've ever visited. And uh Columbia being my favorite South America. But I actually, not just the only, I do actually like Columbia quite a bit. Going to Bogota, and the great news is I'm gonna look up your Lukama stuff, by the way, even though they don't have it there, they have a close relatives that can play with. And I get to visit a coffee plantation in uh Armenia, which is in you know the heart of Colombian coffee growing uh thing.
+
+[2:09] So I'm gonna hopefully, if they're if it's there right now, pick some coffee, do some fun stuff, and report back next week with uh news of uh coffee. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:18] Okay. Call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Got some questions from last week that I didn't do. Uh this one in from uh Senor Trepa's.
+
+[2:29] Uh I answered his question last week about uh Carpano uh Vermouth, but don't believe I answered his question about cherries. Uh uh I'm interested in making shelf stable marasino or bourbon style or maraschino or bourbon style cherries. All the recipes I found call refrigerated storage for a period of weeks. I want to keep them at cellar temperatures for up to a year. Okay, well look.
+
+[2:49] So m uh the actual uh things that you buy in the store as uh maraschino cherries, uh what they do with those things is they they bleach the color and flavor out of them and make them stable in a solution of uh kind of like sulfur dioxide, which is a bleacher and a preservative and uh and an antifungal, I think. And uh calcium chloride. Calcium chloride is what gives marashino cherries that hardness, right? Because what what the calcium is doing, calcium chloride is actually horrible because it tastes bad, but calcium chloride uh what it does is it the calcium helps to cross-link the um pectin inside of the cherry and cause the the flesh of the cherry to not break down uh over time. Right?
+
+[3:27] So that's why the calcium is there. Then they put it in uh food coloring and syrup over a length of time to reinfuse it with sugar, because it doesn't really have any much sugar f left or flavor or anything like that. Uh and that's not the that's not the way to do it. That that's horse that's horse hockey. Uh Toby Cicchini, the bartender, famous for the Cosmo, I think I did mention him last week in regard to cherries, but I gave a very abbreviated cherry.
+
+[3:48] If I talked about cherries at all, it was super abbreviated and I I apologize. Uh so he he makes his own, but I don't have his recipe. I wasn't able to get in touch with him and get his recipe. But uh you want to look up uh the person to look up on this on the internets is uh Darcy O'Neill from uh The Art of the Drink, who also did Fix the Pumps, the incredibly uh influential book on uh kind of rebringing back stuff from the soda fountain days, from the soda jerk days. Uh and so, okay, so I'm gonna compile all of all of these things.
+
+[4:15] First of all, uh some of the patents online and Marchino cherries in the store are made with sweet cherries. Old style real cherry uh like like cocktail cherries are uh brandied sour cherries and to this that's what I'm told. And Toby tells me that he's tested sweet cherries and sour cherries, i.e., or sour and or bitter cherries like you know, um, you know, Morellos and all those things. And says that the sweet ones are horrible and insipid and the sour ones are the ones you want. And that's actually borne out if you get the Italian uh preserved cherries.
+
+[4:44] They're the smaller kind, like you know, the the ones that we get in the blue ceramic jar whose name escapes me. But they're a smaller and uh the you know, not the not the sweet style. Now, uh the if you want a a good free guide to old cherry varieties, i.e. cherry varieties prior to about 1920, uh look up cherries of New York. Uh you can get a PDF version online for free.
+
+[5:06] It's like from the teens or twenties, and it's got full colored pictures of all the cherry varieties that were grown in New York at that time, which is also a wide range of all the charity varieties that that existed. Not not all of them by by a long shot, but ones that are available here in New York, uh from the Geneva Agricultural Experiment Station. And I ha I have actually have the whole collection in hard hard copy. Now listen, here's what I'm gonna say. I'm violently allergic to cherries.
+
+[5:26] I can't eat them. Haven't been able to eat them since I was thirty or thirty-one. So uh so bear that in mind. Uh don't like, you know, like anything here I can't actually test it for you because it'll kill me. Okay.
+
+[5:36] Now, the trick uh with there's there's two tricks. One, you want to keep the cherries firm, and two, you want to gr you know gradually preserve the cherries so that they don't rot. So uh typically there's two things we add to cherries to preserve them sugar to increase the sugar content so that we're storing them high sugar so that they don't go bad. And two, uh we're adding an acid, which is an antifungal in the thing that is basically a preserved antibacterial antifungal thing in the syrup. And three, uh you're going to add uh sugar, alcohol, whatever, I forget one, two, three, four, five, whatever.
+
+[6:07] Uh like sugar, alcohol, um sugar, alcohol, acid, and calcium, you're gonna add to this. But you have to do it carefully because you have to preserve the osmotic balance of the cherry so that they don't shrivel and or rupture. I'm gonna come back and give you what the answers to that is, but I have a collar on the air. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh big fan.
+
+[6:29] I got a question for you today about uh shellfish protein. So uh trying to make uh todd, uh sort of fish paste, a little bit of egg, some curry, fried delicious Thai street food. Uh and was thinking of trying it with um shrimp paste, in fact have was thinking of frying it around some sugar cane. Problem is when you grind up shrimp shrimp paste tossed on a little egg, it falls apart when you throw it in the L. And uh was curious, you know, uh realized, oh maybe that's why crab cakes are much harder to keep together than burgers, but I was hoping you could shed a little light on what's going on and if there's a relatively simple fix.
+
+[7:04] Huh. Well, uh I wouldn't have expected that. Um, but I mean, obviously, the easiest fix, I mean, aside from actually figuring out what's going on in the recipe formulation, is just to add a little bit of transglutaminase to it, uh like Activa RM, and it would bind it, you know, lickety split. Is there enough salt in there for the proteins to bind together? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:28] Uh there's uh the uh I add a pinch of salt to everything, uh haven't didn't add uh crazy amount, um, but uh shrimp has some natural salt in it, does it not? Yeah, should. And and you process it long enough for it to get a good what looked like a good bind in the mix before you fried it. Yeah. That's very odd.
+
+[7:48] But I know for a fact that shrimp with a little bit of transglutaminase added to it, if uh, you know, if you'd have to poach it probably first in a little uh in a little water stock to set the outside, but they won't break ever. Never. They will not break. Um I mean that's what Wiley, you know, does to f to make his uh shrimp noodles. And those things I've fried them and they fry fine.
+
+[8:10] So I'm assuming that egg also containing protein wouldn't interfere with the bind with the uh with the uh I'm just so surprised. Although when you think about it, like I always when I'm doing things, I would never do straight shrimp, like in my sausages and poaching mixtures for like fish canals. It's always fish, scallops, and shrimp. So I'm what so maybe there is something strange about about shrimp. Uh but I mean, do you have access?
+
+[8:36] I mean, you can from Monarch Pantry you can buy a fairly small amount of transglutaminase, and it's fairly easy to use. Just sprinkle a little bit in. Don't go I wouldn't the maximum you can add is one percent by weight, but it p you don't need nearly one percent by weight just to just to keep it together. In fact, that might make it too firm. All right.
+
+[8:53] I will uh I'll try it, but uh so there's I'm curious though, you know, what why do crab cakes fall apart more easily than uh than a burger or something like that? Is there something about seafood proteins that uh make them bind less than uh than meat? Yeah, well, crab cakes, remember, a crab cake is being formed from uh meat, at least when I make them, that's already been cooked once. So there's not uh like a a lot of the proteins already coagulated in it, and so the and especially kind of the lump style crab meat that you're using the bigger bigger chunks aren't gonna want to bind together. So, you know, in an in a native in a native un uh uncooked protein, it's uh hasn't been coagulated yet.
+
+[9:31] Um, you know, there's a lot of soluble, you know, liquid-bound proteins. You add salt, more of those things come out, and they've kind of form a gluey, sticky matrix, and then when the heat sets uh you know sets them, it sets into kind of a solid matrix, like a sausage, that's how it works. But whereas like something like crab meat, you know, it's already been set, so you can't you can't do it. I don't know. Yeah.
+
+[9:52] I mean again, you can take cr uh crab meat and bind it with transglutaminase and get it to stick together, or you could add some uncooked protein like fish protein to it to help bind it if you don't want to add other extenders. But the crab meat itself is never gonna bind together as well just because it's cooked. Okay. Thanks for trying out and let you know. Cool, thanks.
+
+[10:11] All right, so back to the cherries for a second. So here's what you want to do. Uh if you go to Darcy O'Neill's website, uh The Art of the Drink, which I first of all highly recommend that you do, you should go to his website, I don't know, buy his you know, acid phosphate soda, support the man, except you know, he's uh doing very good work for all of us in in the world of cocktail and technologies. Uh and he's an actual scientist. I don't know if he still does science for a living or whether he just does cocktail stuff for a living.
+
+[10:33] Anyways, uh what you want to do is figure out about how much sugar in uh is in your cherry. And I don't really I don't know that I trust his numbers a hundred percent because I've read other numbers, but he's basically saying that the bricks equivalent bricks, which is weight of sugar in uh in water for a cherry, is somewhere on the on the order of five or six to sixteen uh bricks. I've heard as much up to like uh, you know, up to twenty, twenty-two, twenty-two uh bricks percent sugar on uh on one of the sweeter cherries. So you're gonna want to start with uh sugar syrup, only slightly more sugary than that. So one-to-one simple syrup is gonna be too much to start with.
+
+[11:11] Start lower and work your way up. Add acid. And Darcy says that malic and citric are the two components that are mainly the acids in there, so you're gonna want to add probably more malic than citric, although that's also what kind of limes taste like. So you're gonna want to add malic and citric acid. You're gonna want to add uh sugar, right?
+
+[11:28] And then you gradually increase the sugar content of the syrup. Uh now he says to make sure there's enough syrup in there such that the sugar content doesn't decrease too much because of the water that goes in, but I would say go a little bit stronger, add it a little bit as you go, get a strong syrup, and then after it's preserved in syrup, start doping in alcohol, like super high-proof ethanol, until it gets to where you want it, and then you should be good uh for a year. But please go read uh Darcy O'Neill's uh posts on uh preserved cherries. Now, we have a caller. Oh, uh also uh anyway, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[12:01] Hey Dave, uh I just made uh about 20 pounds of homemade sausage. Nice. And yeah, and I cooked it the way I usually cook sausage, and it'll uh I did like a link of each batch I made. I did like four different ones, and they all turned out really mealy. And uh I did a little research and it says it's just from the the fat breaking from d taking it making it too hot.
+
+[12:25] Right. And I'm wondering why why, you know, I I can do it a little lower temp next time, but I'm wondering why normal sausages don't uh break like that because the way the way I normally cook it is is you know I'll I'll brown it on one side in a pan and then flip it and put a little water in the pan and cover it and then after about ten minutes I take it off and let the and then cook it until it's kind of brown a little more. Yeah no what they're talking about with high temperature isn't on the cook side. They're talking about high temperature on the make side. Oh okay.
+
+[12:56] So like typically uh I mean uh what kind of sausage was it again? Well I g I I did uh some uh some Thai chicken with some ch I ground up chicken thighs and a little uh fat back in there and then put Thai chilies and Thai basil. I did a turkey with uh dried cherries, a lot of stuff all out of the charcuterie book. Right. So yeah, but so not emulsified though regular like so regular sausage mixers, not not like made into a battery emulsified right?
+
+[13:26] I mean fat right okay. Yeah I think um are you parti are you par freezing the the the the meat and the fat before you grind it? Um I try to um I don't have a great grinder though and so it was kind of just making more of a paste than actual stuff. But half of the half of the sausages I made I just bought from our local butcher shop. They had they make their own sausages and they sold me a pre-ground blend of you know pork bell or pork shoulder and pork fat to you know like thirty five percent fat.
+
+[13:59] And they just sold it to me pre-ground. So I wouldn't think that that would break as well. Huh. And that that one's the one that went mealy, the one that they did pre ground for you? All of them did.
+
+[14:10] The ones I ground myself and the ones that they had pre-ground. I mean, that that's l look look the cooking technique that you talk about the is you know, the old school one, pre pre poach and then and then brown off, right? That's what you said you do. That's what that's what I typically do when I if I don't have a circulator. I mean, that's good technique.
+
+[14:26] So that's not that's not doing it. So it's gotta be I mean, typically when you're looking at sausage manufacturer, there's uh you know, the m the main things are do you have a high enough fat content, which you do, you asked you got it, right? Do you have a high enough salt content to get a good bind going? 'Cause that'll also mean it won't bind together well if you don't have a high enough salt content because the salt is what's allowing the proteins to uh kind of come out and form that that bind in in a sausage mix, right? So was it bound right?
+
+[14:53] If it's not bound right, it's gonna be more like you know, compressed hamburger meat, right? Three, was the temperature of the of the fat and and whatnot cold enough when it was ground so you're not getting weird smearing effects and then you'll get a lot of you know, if the fat tissue is disrupted and and melted instead of you know, ground cleanly, then you'll bleed the fat out and you'll be left with dry and and mealiness. So the the temperature of the of the meat is important and uh you know, proper trim is important when you grind it. And thirdly, the temperature is vitally important in emulsified sausages because you're making an emulsion and the emulsion will break if it gets too hot. And really those uh those are the main factors that I always I mean, not that I'm a huge expert in it, but those are the main factors that I always look for in troubleshooting a sausage problem to see what's gone wrong.
+
+[15:41] But from what you've told me, I can't really figure out what you know I can't really figure out which one of those kind of like main precepts of sausage making were violated, especially 'cause you say you've done it before without problem, right? Yeah, and I mean that's I I you know, when I cook regular commercial sausage, they never break. The way I cook them. So I was wondering if they added something to it and uh you know, to keep it from doing that, or if it's just uh messed up somehow this time. I mean, you can add things to sausage to keep them from breaking, but you you shouldn't have to.
+
+[16:12] Do you know what I mean? So like anything that you add to a commercial sausage, uh anything that's added to to things to stabilize them are there to i just in case somebody happens to abuse them, like kerrageenin or things like that. But they're they shouldn't ever be necessary to uh to to produce a good a good sausage. I mean the only things necessary are high fat content, proper temperature regulation during manufacture, and proper uh salt content. And and of course proper fat type.
+
+[16:41] If you add a fat that's been rendered, that's gonna be horrible. If the fat's already been rendered once, you know, it's never gonna come back to its native form and then the fat won't hold in properly, all the fat'll bleed out and it's gonna be a huge nightmare. You know? I mean like you you you weren't using pr like you were using you said fat back. Yeah, if I got fat back from the local butcher shop and chopped it up and put it in the freezer.
+
+[17:02] But I was using a new uh I mean it's actually a vintage uh grinder I got from my dad. It's uh uh it's at the rival sausage grinder. But it it seemed like it was really maybe grinding it too much where the the fat wasn't making coming out in little chunks more than when it was coming out in almost a paste. So I'm thinking I might have ground the fat too much. Yeah, if the fat was p like came out like a I mean it's again, like it's hard to know, like if it comes out as a paste and you're breaking it up uh too much, then perhaps uh you know, you would need to treat it then more like an emulsified sausage.
+
+[17:37] If that breaks and those that weeps out, right? Then uh you're you know, it's not going to so you know any time you have fat, fat isn't you know, obviously fat's not just fat. Fat is mixture of fat and connected tissue and and uh and a and a bunch of other things. And so when it's native, it'll hold itself kind of in in in place properly, and when it's been melted out, then it's never gonna hold itself right, which is why you want to make which is why they don't want the fat to get smeared when they're grinding when you're grinding for sausage. But but maybe the blade isn't sharp on the on the uh on the grinder, you might sharpen the bri blade and look at it, just making sure you're getting good good contact.
+
+[18:16] It should it should grind clearly and shouldn't come out l warm at all or like a paste. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's the problem. It it's something from back in the 70s and uh you know it probably hasn't been sharpened for thirty years. Uh I mean those should work.
+
+[18:31] Like the old pork style or rival, they're all the same with the they look like they they look like the kitchenade, but the barrel it looks like it's been ex pulled out in Photoshop, right? One of those guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, you know, they're like uh uh like shin shiny tin plate cast iron, those guys. They they should work.
+
+[18:49] Um you you know, it's just maybe the blade wasn't sharp. Uh you you should also put the grinder in the freezer as well, so the grinder's cold. Uh but it sounds like maybe that's what w what what happened is that you maybe uh you know, the something went wrong with the fat back and uh it just didn't gr it didn't grind right, paste it out and then uh and then leaked on you when you cooked it. So there's no salvaging it. I took some, you know, some leftover and made burger type, you know, an uncaste and fried 'em up, and those seem to taste all right.
+
+[19:23] Yeah, I'm sure they slip out of the casing. Yeah. Yeah, you could do that. Or, you know, I mean the real problem is is that if you had super accurate temperature control, you might be able to cook 'em at like a straight, like a 140 and then like let do a quick sear off on the outside without melting it out too much. But I know I don't know.
+
+[19:42] I'd have to see because I don't really know. At those temperatures, you know, some of the pig fat will remain semi, not super liquid. It'll all liquefy, but not like super liquid, and you might get it to not kind of run everywhere and go crazy. But uh yeah, but I think maybe breaking it up might be breaking it up and and making patties out of it might be the way to go. Alright, thanks for the help, boy.
+
+[20:05] Hey, thanks. And uh let me know next time you try it whether uh fixing that solved it. All right, cool. All right, cool. Take it easy.
+
+[20:11] You too. All right, so listen, Jack, why don't we go to our or Joe? I don't know who's there right now. Why don't we go to our first commercial break with cooking issues? The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[21:37] The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. Hello.
+
+[22:01] And so that uh the band, uh, Jack tells me that is fellow radio show host Damon Bolti's band called Brothers, because Damon Bolti has a twin brother who apparently is also in the band. Although be funny is if he had a band called Brothers and his twin brother wasn't in the band. That that'd be more funny, I think. I think maybe he should do that. They should have some sort of rift.
+
+[22:21] But you should go definitely go check them out and see them if you're really into seeing nine feet tall, uh, skinny uh bartenders um uh play music, right? Yeah. He is kind of really tall, man. He's like as tall as Tristan. Yeah.
+
+[22:35] He's a tall man. How tall would you say uh Damon is? He's taller than me. I mean, he's gotta be a good six three. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:42] How does he does he fit into the chairs here in the studio? He does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[22:46] He's never been on my show. He should be. I've never been on his show. You know why? He hates me.
+
+[22:51] I know, I know he doesn't hate me at all. I'm just kidding. He's a good man. I would love that. Yeah, we'll do that.
+
+[23:02] And uh back to Damon for a second. Do you know he makes an excellent old fashioned? Were you aware of that fact? Uh well, I I assumed as much, but excellent, excellent old stuff. Uh they're they're very delicious.
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+[23:14] He made uh what was the old fashioned he made first at the museum event? I don't remember. But it was damn good. Yeah. It was like he was like, I'm gonna he's like he doesn't talk like this.
+
+[23:21] He's like, I'm gonna do something really simple. Someone's gonna make an old fashioned, it's gonna be delicious crap on you guys. He doesn't talk at all like that. He's not like that. But listen, speaking of old fashions and cocktails and food, you need to come to Heritage Radio Network dot org's members only party, September 9th, between five and eight PM at Roberta's Roberta's Roberta's Pizza, 261 Moore Street in Brooklyn, New York.
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+[23:43] There will be food from Grad Mercy Tavern. Back 40 West, Del Posto, Momo Sushi, Inside Park, Parish Hall, Heritage Foods USA, catered by Robertas, see the table, Saxobe Cheesemongers and the Heritage Meat Stop, Cocktails by none another than me, Dave Arnold, Elbuco Mezcal, Galeano, Absolute Vodka Plimotin, and Pierre Jouet Champagne. Beer by Great Brewers dot com, Greenport Harbor Brewing, and Cain Vineyard and Winery. Uh but wait, before we get there, uh if you enter Cooking Issues HRN at the checkout, we'll give you twenty-five dollars off. Holy crap!
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+[24:25] Twenty-five dollars off! Yeah, and then and there's gonna be plenty of food and drink here, right? Oh yeah. I mean like a lot, right? Do you get the VIP?
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+[24:31] You get a little private tour of uh the chocolate factory in the neighborhood. There'll be some special cocktails that won't be available at the party just for the VIP. Um and a whole bunch of other surprises. So And by that what we mean is special means Nastasha won't scowl at you when she gives it to you. That's right.
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+[24:45] She'll smile at you. Yeah, yeah. And then you can have both experiences. You can come during the VIP section and get the smile, and then come back during the regular section and get scaled at, so you can get the double. That's the only thing.
+
+[24:57] I'm not sure. That's not confirmed. Not confirmed, but possible. Possible. And there'll be raffle tickets there for twenty five dollars.
+
+[25:04] Uh the VIP I think I mentioned is two hundred fifty dollars. Now listen, listen. I don't know whether you notice whether you listen, but I I I believe that every time we say we say heritage radio.org. And what that means is is that we are a non profit here at Heritage Radio, which means we need some money to keep this uh going. We need to make sure that we have people in the engineering booth making this stuff happen.
+
+[25:23] This stuff ain't free, people. Jack, am I right about this? It's not free. I wish it was free. It's not free.
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+[25:28] And you know, we have, you know, sponsors, but listen, the sponsors we take are sponsors that we believe in that the and you know, this it's not we're not a commercial we're not a commercial thing here where anyone can come and just you know, plunk down money. It's just not the way it operates. This is like the we operate more like uh PBS. We take kind of good people's money when they want to give it to us, and then we rely on you guys for the rest. Is this true or is this false?
+
+[25:51] You're nailing it. Yeah. Okay, so listen, please sign up, come to the party. Uh I'll try to get Nastasha to even smile at the non VIPs, but you know, no no uh no guarantees. You know, if somebody buys a ticket now, Joe might be able to get lunch today.
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+[26:08] Oh man. I'm just kidding. Joe gets lunch. Yeah, but it's gonna be a good lunch if he gets a ticket now. Now, yeah, otherwise you like you feed him out of what?
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+[26:18] The scrap spins here at uh at Roberta's like when people leave a slice of pizza, like that's what you guys get? Yeah, exactly. Scraps. Snacky tunes, scraps, that's what we eat. Yeah, you gonna help these guys or what, people?
+
+[26:29] Please. All right. Uh speaking of, uh, Joel writes in, uh, Joel Gargano writes in with a big shout out to Joe and big ups. Effing awesome is what he said. He he is actually interested in starting uh another band with you uh and uh doing the old mosh pit.
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+[26:48] The old bringing bringing mosh pits back. Do they still Joe? Do they still have mosh pits nowadays? Yes, they do. We have some mosh pits.
+
+[26:54] But I think you're supposed to be in this band too, Dave. Oh, really? I think he wants he wants you in it too. Oh, all right. I mean, do they still do our mosh pits like like what level of mosh pit are they now?
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+[27:03] Do they do the are the frat boys still there actually trying to knock people over, or is it more like it used to be? Well, it depends on uh, you know, where you're where you're performing. But you know, sometimes you get some people that are just you know gonna kick the crap out of me and uh I get kind of scared. Yeah, but there's kick the crap out of, yeah, there's there's kick the crap out of and then there's kick the crap out of. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:22] Right, there's like the fun get the crap kicked out of you. Yeah, like if you take a if you take like a Doc Martin to the face because someone's flying over your head, like that's all in good fun as far as I'm gonna do it. But if there's like some guy who's just like uh, you know, red in the face and steam coming out of his ears, he just looks at you and just stares you down, and he's you know, this guy's just coming after you. Yeah, D-bags, they ruin it for everyone. Exactly.
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+[27:41] And then I guess go hide in the bathroom. Yeah, that's what's weak. That's weak sauce. Listen, do they still do uh crowd surfing in the mosh pits these days? Oh, definitely.
+
+[27:48] That's good to see some things haven't changed. I know, exactly. Yeah. All right. Uh so now another question in from uh from Joel.
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+[27:55] Uh what's the best way to get coffee flavor into beer? We want to use a local roaster's beans and not buy a pre-made extract. My brother just began operations as a brewer here in Connecticut, Thimble Island Brewing. Uh I'd like to try their product. Maybe someone could send us some Thimble Island brewing product, right?
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+[28:09] Try it. Try it. It's only in Connecticut, very close to us. And we were doing a number of tests to see the best way to infuse coffee into a stout and hold off the overly biddic bitter slash acidic flavors. I'm thinking cold extraction is best suited.
+
+[28:14] You're correct. I went through the infusion post on the cooking issues blog and got some good ideas, yet nothing has proven to be tasty on its own. Here's what I did for testing before I attempt to get the coffee flavor into beer. Made an extract in room temperature water at uh 100 uh to one I can't really understand uh this thing, but 250 grams of uh coarse ground coffee, medium roast, um, and did like three minute, one minute infusions in the ISI whipper with uh charges and then uh blah blah blah blah blah. Uh anyway, your numbers here are way too uh not long.
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+[28:56] Way too not long. What's the right word for that? Way too short. Short is the word I'm looking for. Uh Nastasha actually helped me with that.
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+[29:02] She gave me this look, and I was like, oh yeah, short. Uh but uh when people are doing cold brew in the ISI, they're doing it usually for a much, much longer period of time. When I do it, I do it for two minutes, three minutes because I'm using alcohol and not water, right? So you could actually do a straight infusion into alcohol, or you could take much longer and infuse it into water. Uh and you had this question right here like, should I change the liquid medium?
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+[29:27] Yes. Um we toss the whole beans into the fermenter and hope for the best? No. I would not do that. If uh what I would do is look, your beers, I don't know what your beers are coming in at, but if they let's say they're coming in at like five, five, six percent alcohol, somewhere in there, seven percent, eight, whatever.
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+[29:43] Uh I'm usually extracting into twenty percent alcohol, uh sorry, forty percent alcohol. So my infusions with coffee are very strong and they happen very quickly, even at room temperature under an ISI infusion uh regime. I know people that have done cold infusion of coffee into uh water and liquor in huge five in huge by my standards, five gallon uh containers like corny kegs, uh, but they're letting it sit a lot longer. With your low alcohol percentage, you are gonna have to go uh a lot longer. Now I mean you give it a shot, but my problem with the if you make super concentrated extracts is they tend to go they tend to go bitter.
+
+[30:20] If you're allowed to use an alcohol-based extract, then you could do an alcohol-based coffee extract and dope it in afterwards, right? Just use ISI with um with high proof. And that's gonna be because if you're actually gonna do this in a commercial fashion, you're gonna have a difficult time uh, you know, infusing the entire amount of each batch of coffee that you make. Now, um you also say I grabbed a Starbucks via packet, which is their like supposedly high grade version of uh of uh you know freeze-dried coffee. I've never tried it, and poured some into a Guinness, it tasted pretty good.
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+[30:52] Is that a better route? I know Wiley uses that stuff in sauces and whatnot. Uh I don't know whether he does or not, actually. I haven't talked to him about that's interesting. Uh if so, how can I make it myself?
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+[31:00] That stuff's just freeze-dried uh coffee. Then you ask lastly, what about this guy? And you know, obviously the readers can't we have viewers can't, whatever they are, can't uh see it, but it filter the beer uh beer through a bunch of beans before kegging or bottling, and you post a link to the Randall. So, what a Randall is, is it is a Randall in beer in beer parlance, is um uh almost a modified uh water filter that was developed by the dogfish head brewery uh people to do post infusion. They were they developed it for hops, and what you're doing is running the beer out of the keg through a container full of hops that infuses on its way out to the tap.
+
+[31:38] Now, the issue with it, and people have done a lot of coffee in it to add coffee flavors to it. You have to use whole beans with something like that because ground beans are going to cause wicked foaming, wicked, wicked foaming. So you have to use whole beans in that. And I don't know how much beer you can filter through it and get the same taste, how long it needs to sit, etc. etc.
+
+[31:58] So I haven't run any tests with it, but there's plenty of people doing it. There's lots of links out there on how to build a Randall with uh parts that you know you can buy in a regular hardware store along with things you could buy at a homebrew shop. And what they all amount to is modifying water filters so that you can uh run the uh run the beer through the water filter on the way out to the tap. Now, the dogfish head guys realize that foaming is a big problem because duh foaming is going to be a big problem when you do that. And so their new version, which is on their website, and you can see it, and they tell you the parts you need to build it, but they don't think they build it for you, is has the initial infusion chamber and then a secondary chamber with ice surrounding it to keep the temperature down.
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+[32:39] That's an anti anti-foam chamber. Uh so that's an interesting thing. Go look at Randall, and it's named after Randall the enamel Randall the the enamel eating whatever, blah, blah, blah, because the first thing had so much hops in it when they put it through it that they said it ate the enamel off of your teeth, and those guys at Dogfish Head have to come up with crazy names for everything. They just can't help themselves. They can't help it.
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+[32:58] Uh so go look that up and uh try making some extracts with higherproof ethanol or doing it a lot longer with water, or you could do that a lot longer with water in five-gallon batches, like hours or maybe you know, hours and hours or maybe overnight. Uh, or do traditional grind and then like uh Kyoto style cold uh cold brewing. Anyways, let's take one more commercial break and we'll come back with cooking issues broke her heart today. She's out there crying. Broke my own heart today.
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+[34:23] Hello, this is Mark Ladner from Del Posto, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Here. Yeah, yeah! Yeah, Mark Ladner calling it out. What do you think there, stuff? Did you know that he uh he wasn't even listening?
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+[34:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did a uh he did a shout-out for uh Hello, this is Mark Latiner from Del Posto, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Thanks, Mark Ladner. That's by the way, like that's like if you ever ask Nastasha a question like her, like the only honest answer she can ever give you. I wasn't listening.
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+[34:55] I wasn't listening. Yeah, right. Alright, so a question from before we missed from Andrew Marcus on gummy candies. Uh hey, uh gang. I've recently been trying to make gummy candies at home, but running into some issues, so I thought I'd just defer to you before spending more money on other ingredients, it might just lead to more dead ends.
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+[35:13] Ideally, I'd rather not use gelatin for my veggie friends and potentially not have to cook it so much to preserve the delicate flavors. Nothing specific yet, in other words, on the delicacy of the flavors, just a preference. After reading around, it looks like the only way to achieve the first half, i.e., vegetarian, is with cornstarch uh or pectin, with which both seem to require tons of sugar and require lots of heat. But maybe I'm way off. I was working with gel an, low acyl and high acyl gel an previously, but haven't been able to get anything nearly chewy enough with good elasticity and sheer.
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+[35:41] Do you have any advice? Usage rates for those hydrocolloids would be awesome too. Oh, if I can make it even more complicated, is there any way to add alcohol to the recipe or with that increase the liquid portion too much and make the gel too loose? Thanks for any help you can give Andrew Marcus. Okay.
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+[35:55] Uh you're not gonna have any actual alcoholic candy that's gummy because by the time you get the solids level high enough, you're you're gonna not gonna have much alcohol left in it at all. You can make things that are hard like rocks, really jelly, gel, gel, gelled, uh, that have bless you, thank you. That have uh fairly high alcohol. The limit with most hydrocolloids in higher concentrations to get good gel strength is about 20% alcohol in the finite finished thing. I've done with some hydrocolloids higher, like I've done fluid gel agar fluid gels at like 25, 28%, then have gotten them to work, alcohol, uh, especially if the alcohol you have to add the alcohol later with agar because alcohol can't be boiled at agar setting temp uh, you know, agar um uh temperatures to well, brain is gone today.
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+[36:40] The temperatures that you require to get the agar functional. Hydrate, there we go. Uh you um the alcohol will boil off before those temperatures happen. So most things that are so but you can do like an uh fluid gel that's pretty high in alcohol using agar uh or any one any one of those things, and you can set gels with them with a high enough if you add a high enough alcohol, not too high in alcohol. My brain is so fried today, crazy.
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+[37:02] Anyways, so but you're not gonna get something that's a gummy candy that has actual appreciable amounts of alcohol in it, although it can have the flavor, the base flavor of an alcohol just by adding it and boiling off all of the water and alcohol in it. Okay. So that's that part of the question. Also, low acyl and high acyl gelan uh mixes, you're not gonna be able to get uh the look, you can get very good gelatin replacement with high acyl and low acyl gel-an in the ratios that are normal for gelatin, but in the super high ratio that's in a gummy candy of gelatin in there, it's not gonna have the same texture there that gelatin will. So I don't think you're gonna be barking up the right tree with that.
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+[37:40] I've looked into other hydrocolloid replacers uh to do gelatin replacement, and the one most people use seems to be agar. Agar also, I mean, having done high high percentage alcohol, uh sorry, high percentage agar uh gummies before, uh there's not gonna get the right amount, they're not gonna get the right texture with that. You might be able to, I haven't looked it up, uh I wasn't able to to check it out, but there are kappa carrageen and locust bean gum mixes, and you can actually use agar and locust bean gum, but it's not quite the same. But uh and go to CP Kelco and look up their gelatin replacers or call them CP Kelco, and they might have a kappa carrageenin slash locust bean gum, and the cap is providing the gelling, and the locust bean gum is getting it to act more like uh more like gelat and make it softer. They might have a mix that can be used in a high at a high enough ratio to allow it to do uh gummy candies, but I c I don't know.
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+[38:34] And I doubt it's ever gonna have the stretch and pull of a gummy bear. I mean, you might get something similar. Now, the real awesome one is, as you say, pectin, but you do have to cook the the the bee crap out of pectin to get it to work. What you could do is cook the bulk of it and overcook it slightly and then add super concentrated fresh flavors back. And uh Nastasha and I did that years ago with uh we rotovapped uh strawberry, fresh strawberry juice, down to uh like a si high high brick syrup, overcooked pectin and sugar, and then mixed it in.
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+[39:08] We never achieved hard thing, we achieved like a toffee, but it was the most delicious toffee I've ever had in my life. I can't I wish I had that right now. It was so delicious. It was just really hard for us to calculate exactly what the bricks was because what you're doing when you're boiling is taking it to a certain temperature, but what you're really shooting for is a certain liquid content. And pectin requires high acidity and a high uh solids content, and that's why you have to cook it.
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+[39:31] You don't want to cook it um, you can't cook it quickly because if you cook it quickly, you're gonna scorch the fruit at the bottom, which is the problem why everything has to be done slowly and more mellowly. But uh, you know, maybe you could get away with adding a little bit, you know, after the fact, after it's been cooked up to temperature, as long as you get the the ratios right. So sorry I couldn't be super helpful, but uh but there you there you have it. Okay. Uh and I'm gonna have to rock through these or Jack's gonna pull my microphone out because it's just the kind of guy he is.
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+[39:57] Remember, we don't have enough money to keep my microphone plugged in. I'm just kidding. They have another show coming on, is actually what the story is. Okay, have a question in from uh is this from Paul. Uh in one of the cooking issues radio uh episodes, Dave mentioned that he uses a particular sharping stone.
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+[40:15] It's proving impossible to find the name by going back through all the episodes. Would it be possible to email me the name? I think it was three initials or an acronym or three additionals. Well, better than that, here it is in the real life. DMT.
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+[40:25] Uh I used Duo Sharp DMT uh Diamond uh whetstones. Uh when you're buying a whetstone, uh, none of the real hardcore knife people use this, and they're gonna say I'm a bad human being for using it, but when I actually sharpen everyone's like, meh, it's pretty freaking sharp. It's pretty freaky sharp. You want to get the largest stone you can possibly uh get because uh that's gonna make sharpening large stones easy. The one I have a lot of the one of the reasons why a lot of knife aficionados hate it is because it's got an interrupted pattern in it, and uh and that makes for easier clearing and less kind of gumming up of the abrasive as you're working, but like real, real hardcore people don't like it.
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+[41:00] I like it fine. What I like about this one is it stays flat forever, it's very thin, it's not very heavy, it's unbreakable, unwarpable, and doesn't need to be uh dressed. So I get the two inch the 10 inch uh duo sharp, I buy it in um I buy it in fine, uh the one I get is fine slash extra fine, uh, which is 25 micron grit on the fine side and nine micron grit on the other. I think I've also said before, and if you're a freaking psycho and you like super high uh like soup polishing stuff out, uh DMT now makes uh an eight-inch stone, unfortunately not a ten, that is like a straight diamond with no interrupted holes that has a um a super extra fine three micron uh grit, which is like insanely small. That's as small as most of the high end Japanese stuff, and that'll take it to uh a polish.
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+[41:49] But uh as I've said many times before, Japanese grids and American grits don't correlate with each other, the Japanese grit numbers being higher for the equivalent thing than an American grit number. And secondly, uh an actual grit number isn't necessarily gonna im uh indicate everything, it indicates a certain particle size, but not a spread and distribution of particle sizes, nor how they are bound to the substrate. So there's a lot to be known. And what I really recommend you all do, if you're interested in abrasives, is go to the Unified Abrasives Manufacturer Association, UAMA.org, and go to their uh section called Abrasive Grains 101. And they have a great little web thing in the jig on kind of what is actually going on, like what the grains look like, what the different materials are, why you would use different materials and what that means.
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+[42:36] But if you just want the simple answer, go get a T a DMT 10-inch uh duo sharp uh greenslash red. Yeah? Yeah, okay. And we got one last uh thingamajiggy in from Chris who says uh and he just calls you out, he just says, Hey Nastashi, he doesn't give a crap about the rest of us. Does not care.
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+[42:53] Anyway. Yeah, right. Uh Rumen and Pulsan just released their latest on Salumi, and in fact, uh I just got it. I just got the new Salumi book. Is it actually out yet or not?
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+[43:03] Do you know? Yeah, anyway, I have it. I have it, you know, because I got it, I got it. Anyway, uh Roman and Poston just released their latest on Salumi and go into some fair detail on whole pig butchery, curing, etc. Where it comes up a little short is on specifics for curing chambers.
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+[43:18] How much airflow do you need, mechanisms for controlling humidity, minimum practical sizes, etc. Do you guys have a good reference for someone trying to set up a small slash trial and development scale chamber? I want to uh give some Copa and Lard a shot, Lardo, I guess, before committing to a larger setup for the shop. So is it going to have to live in an apartment until I can convince the boss that it's ready for prime time? Also, in what may be a long shot, the website for National Center for Home Food Preservation publication seems to have been shut down.
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+[43:45] Any chance you or Dave has a copy of their cured meats.pdf referenced to the November 15th, 2011 radio show, I think, or know a place to grab it. Uh okay, so I went on the national uh I went on the National Center for Home Curing and Food Uh Preservation, and I didn't go get to go back to listen to what I said, but most of their publications are back up, so I don't know if you had a temporary problem, whether it was temporarily broken and now it's back. But if it's still down, I'll look for the specific one that you you need to find. Some of them are organized in a wonky way, like you have to click next, next, next to get through it, and you can't download it easily, but it seems to be there. Now, back to uh Roman Pulson.
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+[44:19] One of the great things I saw about it is uh they they actually very early in the book said something that uh it I need people need to say more often. They said, uh, when you're making salumi in America, do not try to make Italian salumi in America. Make American salumi. And I think that's a great, great thing. So for instance, Sam Edwards, our our good friend and one of the benefactors of the Heritage Radio, uh, he sells his hams as Suriano, trying to piggyback on Serrano style hams, which I think is a mistake.
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+[44:50] And I've told him this to his face. This is not nothing he doesn't like already know that I think is a mistake, because I think American hams are amazing, delicious, and they're their own product. They shouldn't be compared to Spanish hams, they shouldn't be compared to Italian hams, they're American products. And the same goes with if you're making Salumi here, don't try to make an Italian product. Make what make an American, I mean you can use Italian techniques, but you should be shooting.
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+[45:14] If you're trying to shoot to make somebody else's product, then all you're ever going to be is a runner-up to their product. If you try to make your own product, uh then you get to be the best at that, and you can focus on what makes it better, what makes it worse, which isn't to say you don't respect and love the procedures, techniques, and flavors that someone uses in a place like Italy. But I'll tell you what uh Fong told us from what's the Imperial Tea Court, right? Is the name of his place, Stas? We went out and visited.
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+[45:38] He's growing tea in California now, and I asked him, I was like, What do you want the tea to taste like? He said was probably the most profound thing he could say about this. He says, I want it to taste like California wants tea to taste. In other words, he wants to make tea that tastes like what tea should taste like when it's grown to the best of its abilities in California. Anyway, so I thought it was a good point that uh Roman and Polson brought up in that.
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+[46:00] Uh, but then let's go on to your actual question. If you want to see what real badass curing technology is like, before I get into your actual answer, see how long it takes me to get into an actual answer? It's ridiculous. Nastasha's shaking her head and giving me her I hate you face. Okay.
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+[46:12] Uh the Italian company, Travelini, which is you know spelled Travag Lini, Travagini, right? Uh are the world's greatest curing, drying, aging, uh, and like ham and salumi production equipment machine people in the world. They are the best, bar none. They are amazing. In fact, they are the company I always point at when I say that technology can be used for good in the production of food rather than just for making it cheaper, because these guys have developed curing rooms and aging rooms that are specifically designed to mimic what goes on.
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+[46:45] They originally built it around what goes on in Parma, like in a Parma ham. So they they get humidity, uh, they get temperature, they cycle the humidity and the temperature inside the place to uh mimic the day in, day the day night, day in and out uh changes and seasonal changes in the ham to try because that's what's what's driving the aging in a long-cured process like ham is not just the humidity and the temperature, but the shift in humidity and temperature from both season to season and through day and night. Uh okay. So look at their stuff if you want to see some real badassery. Okay, now, you're true, you're exactly correct.
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+[47:20] In the book, I looked, and they all do have a rat you know rather um that's a paltry kind of amount of information on how to make a curing thing. Remember this. The smaller a curing chamber is the less it's the less stable it's going to be over time. People really and they do mention this a lot which is probably why they don't really go into it too much. People love their curing rooms.
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+[47:40] Going back to Sam Edwards who I talked about before he has a number of curing uh houses for his hams and he says he can know which one you could blindfold him bring him into one and he'll know which one it is based on smell because curing houses develop their own set of microflora and fauna I guess over time and those are going to influence the flavor of each one of the products. So it's incredibly important. So you're not going to get probably a stability of flavor in a small thing because it's too easy to push a small item one way or the other same way it's hard to get a small fish tank to stay uh in good shape forever because if it goes a little bit off it goes way off whereas larger fish tanks can be more self-corrective because they're larger systems. That said um if you want to if you want to basically just hey say hey look you don't want you said airflow. I don't have a lot of data right now on airflow but you you need uh uh you don't want too much airflow because it's gonna uh cause case hardening on the outside drying off but you know some might be there but he the for the best deal in control of a small setup and by that I mean you're gonna convert a fridge to an aging chamber or you're gonna convert you know I don't know some sort of like a small box that I I could not believe what a cheap deal it is and they're gonna be back in stock they say in sept in September on September 20th.
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+[48:53] Go to Aubur Instruments. I've used one of their things it's fine it's okay they're the cheapest people in the world Aubur instruments and check this out for ninety-seven bucks they have a plug and play temperature and humidity controller that already has the sensor on it. So what you do is you just plug in a humidifier or a dehumidifier and a heating element into it and they handle up to 10 amps and put it in and just dial in what you want it to be right so there's two ways you can do this if you know that your chamber is always going to have too low of a humidity then you could attach a humidifier to it and jack the humidity into it. If you know that the humidity is always going to be too uh it's going to be sorry that's gonna be too humid then you can add a dehumidifier to it. So uh another way you could do it for instance you can set the humidity of a chamber by doing something like a like if you go to Google saturated salt solution uh RH standing for relative humidity so sodium uh NACL so you know sodium chloride table salt saturated solution if you have a saturated solution that's sitting in your chamber the chamber is going to equilibrate to 75% humidity so if you want lower than that then you could put a dehumidifier on that sucker and you know that you're always going to need to dehumidify it slightly to get it down to sixty or seventy percent humidity when you're when you're going if you know if look if if the other way to do it is if you know that you're always in a relatively non-humid environment you could put a fan which moves a little bit of air out of it to keep the humidity down and then put a humidifier attached to it that makes it humid as it goes but but so that's a that's the way I I would go about doing it and it's cheap and it should work.
+
+[50:24] We'll see you when you get back when I get back from Columbia cooking issues thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[50:58] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Tuesday, about five, ten minutes late in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling your questions live too. 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Joining the studio as usual with uh Nastasha, the hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the in the booth.
+
+[0:47] How are you guys doing? Great. Yeah, you doing well, Nastasha. I just became members of Heritage Radio Network, so we're we're pretty happy with you. Who, Booker and Dax LLC or Cooking Issues the show?
+
+[0:57] Yeah, you guys, Nastasia and Oh, as humans? Nice. Well, congratulations to us, and thank you, Nastasha, for signing us up for that. Yeah? Each?
+
+[1:08] Each. Yeah? Nice. All right. Worth it.
+
+[1:10] Worth it. Worth every penny. Uh by the way, I'm it looks like I'm horribly out of shape. Today on the Williamsburg Bridge. No sympathy.
+
+[1:17] Today on the Williamsburg Bridge. No sympathy. This guy. I didn't ask for sympathy. You know, I like how see Nastasha f again, this is another thing about Nastasha.
+
+[1:26] Those of you who don't know. You left at 1155. For those of you that don't know what's going on. I didn't say I'm late as a result of being out of shape. I said I'm horribly out of shape.
+
+[1:35] Nastasha creates conversations in her head and assumes that they've already taken place and then makes conclusions based on those conversations that she thinks has already taken place. Like for instance, me saying, I'm late because I'm out of shape instead of leaving early. I'm just merely stating the fact that I'm out of late. Now continue with my story that has nothing to do with me being late, has to do with me being out of shape, Nastasha. Uh the um This guy passes me at the beginning of the Williamsburg Bridge, and he's on the straightaway, so I figure I'll catch up to him because I very rarely get passed because I bike uh not because I'm in shape or because I'm athletic, neither of which is the case, but I get extremely angry when I ride the bicycle, and as Nastasha knows anger increases my phys physical abilities.
+
+[2:12] Not in a hulk-like sense, but just you know, anger, right, Saz? Right. Yeah. Anyways, guy beat me by 30 seconds at the top of the bridge. I could not believe it.
+
+[2:19] I'm gonna have to go into some sort of training regimen. Uh the reason I'm late, actually, is because I didn't follow my own advice, because I'm a moron, to come here and do my research from Roberta's instead of doing it from home. That's the reason I'm late, uh, Nastasha, for your information. Uh anyways, let's go to some questions because I have a reduced amount of time. On the Leukama, which I promised I'd answer.
+
+[2:39] Uh the question was, uh, can you use Leukuma powder? Uh is there a substitute for Leukuma? Leukama is this uh fruit that I think some people think is a superfruit or something. I don't know. It comes from uh Peru.
+
+[2:50] And I said that I thought I'd use something similar to it in Colombia, and then I'll come back once I'm back from Colombia, which I am now, got back on Monday. Uh would uh, you know, maybe you could use instead, or that I try to use some of its properties to figure out a substitution. Turns out uh I was completely incorrect and memorying my memory was completely wrong. When I researched my memory when I got back, because I didn't see anything similar to it. What I remembered is is that Nastasha, you'll have to tune in for this and tune out of your uh uh Z Zappo's uh uh session there.
+
+[3:18] The uh it's not uh it wasn't anything in Columbia I had that was similar to Lucima, it's Canistelle. Remember Canistelle? Yes, the egg flu fruit that we had in the uh fruit and spice park? Uh and based on that, there is a taste component to it that's important, but it seems to me it's mostly the texture of it that's important. Uh because it it was the texture of that egg custard fruit, uh canistel, C-A-N, uh I can't spell it loud, but canistel, that was so kind of amazing.
+
+[3:44] And uh there is a producer of canistel that ships when it's in season, which is I think December through March or May or something like that. Uh and uh they're in Florida, and if you go on localharvest.org and look up fresh gardens, they will ship fresh canistel anywhere in um in the US. I don't think you're gonna get a powder that's going to mimic those same things. I mean, you could use a hydrocolloid mix to do it, but the thing about the thing about the canistel, and I guess a leukoma which I've never used fresh, is it's just extremely dense and custardy on its own, which is probably a combination of high fiber content, low water content, and uh probably a number of strange polysaccharides that contribute to its to its consistency. So you could try to get that texture just by jacking polysaccharides in it.
+
+[4:32] For instance, locust bean gum or well, locust bean gum is good for that, because guar is expensive now. If you're gonna use guar, you have to use the flavor free guar from TIC gums, uh, or some form of thickener. The issue when you thicken something is you some people say that you uh perceive an increased gumminess, which is true. The higher the concentration you use, the more a kind of gummy something is, but sometimes that can be pleasurable. It's just basically managing the expectations of what the texture is gonna be and messing around with it to get the texture right.
+
+[5:01] The other issue when you add hydrocolloids is um once you add them in enough of a concentration to truly thicken thicken thicken something, you're masking flavor. And the only way to uh reduce that masking effect is to increase the flavor profile of what you're what you're using. But um I'll try to look into it more. It's an interesting problem. I wasn't able to I wasn't able to get an answer for you, so I I apologize.
+
+[5:26] Right, styles I'm useless men. Yes. But you you enjoyed the uh the egg custard stuff, right? Yeah. Canistel, delicious.
+
+[5:32] And by the way, uh if you believe the uh the wiki folks, uh canistel actually tastes better than the leukum, I just they don't happen to grow the Lucum being the canistel in, I guess, Peru where it's popular, where Lucum is pro popular. How about that? So the stuff we had was actually superior. Anyway, okay. Next uh question uh from oh, we had a response actually to our vegetarian gummy question uh from uh Andrew.
+
+[5:57] He says, Hey guys, I just thought I might be able to help with the question about vegetarian gummies. On the subject of alcohol, because of you know the person who wrote in wanted to know if they could make an alcohol gummy. Uh on the subject of alcohol, I've made an I've made an alcohol-centered gummy for a product development project in a confectionary school. But the thing is you need a two-shot mogul. And for those of you who don't know what a mogul is, because that's not going to make sense to anyone.
+
+[6:17] Moghul uh is uh I think it's a brand name of uh NIDI NEDI or whatever the hell they're pronounced, is uh uh of confectionery machines that uh do starch molding. So it's a it's a whole confectionary line that produces starch molds and then does uh depositing of candies into starch molds. And they're called uh moguls. You can look up um I di mini-mogul if you want to look up the uh the uh thing. NIDI starch depot depositing.
+
+[6:43] Look up minim or there are other other lines, and they use them for depositing marshmallows, fondance, and uh, you know, jellies, all that kind of stuff. Uh anyways, so uh wait, where was it where where was I? Oh yes. Uh but the thing is you need a two-shot mogul and you need to make sure that both your outer gummy and your inner alcohol mixture have close to the same specific gravity, so it's not really possible at home. Which I figured, right?
+
+[7:05] Figured. Okay. Uh for vegetarian gummies with a really too chewy texture, however, I would try messing around with either starch, which we've talked about, or uh gum arabic. Uh agar is way too short, meaning I guess brittle to replicate a gelatin gummy, and I personally don't like the cooling effect that comes with high uh levels of agar. That said, pectin is my favorite for gels, has such a great flavor release and texture.
+
+[7:26] Thanks for everything you do, Andrew. Ah, and the one that you is really easy for you to do at home, it's not starch, it doesn't require a lot of cooking, and I hadn't thought of, is the one he mentions, which is uh gum Arabic. Gum Arabic is expensive, but what's interesting about gum Arabic is it's has an extremely high solubility. Uh so you but yet means you have to use a preposterously high amount of gum Arabic. But that said, you have uh minimal uh taste impact with gum Arabic uh on on your flavors.
+
+[7:55] Uh so this is an excellent suggestion, but I believe, and I I haven't had time because I just read this this morning to research uh Arabic-based can't gum Arabic-based candies, but I'm pretty sure you're gonna have to deposit it liquid into uh starch mixture and then let it dry for a uh fairly long period uh in a relatively controlled environment. Uh I mentioned, I believe, starch molding once in the past, and there is online available an 18, I think nineties or nineteen tens or twenties uh handbook produced in England on confectionery. It's like the complete confectioner or something like that, and it has an entire section on uh starch molding and how to accomplish it with techniques that don't require sophisticated equipment, i.e., you can do it at home. It's not state of the art because it's from over a hundred years ago, but it's doable at home and it goes through the ins and outs of molding and starch, and it's available free on Google Books. Uh so that's something maybe you should look into.
+
+[8:49] Another question. Should we take a break or should we take a good question? No, go on. Okay, another question. Uh James writes in with uh several things.
+
+[8:56] Uh once uh thanking us for circulation uh circulator info. Uh dear uh Jack, Joe, Nastash, and Dave. Uh, been really enjoying the show down here in Australia and have a few questions about freezing, shelf life and tentacles. After learning about re-thermalizing, which is what we call reheating so that the government doesn't get mad that we didn't reheat it to an incredibly high temperature, destroying all the flavor and texture, whatnot. After learning about re-thermalizing on your show using a thermal circulator, has become an everyday part of our cooking that has greatly increased the yumminess in our house.
+
+[9:22] It's now routine to make quantities of both stock and prepared meals, such as curry soups and other ingredients for more elaborate dishes, including wild mushrooms, confit and octopus. They are prepared and then chilled using good food handling practices, including ice baths and flat pans for chilling, uh fat p excuse me, flat pans for chilling, then held at two degrees C overnight and packed in server-sized portions using a chamber, vacuum sealer, flattened and frozen in layers no greater than thirty millimeters. Uh by the way, this is a kind of I love hearing that we've ever said anything that actually makes people's foods better, right? I mean that's that to me is uh that's the best. I love that.
+
+[9:55] Like that's that's a success. That's you know, but and before we had uh, you know, a bar or any kind of place when uh we could actually serve things to people to directly make them uh hopefully make them happy. But the only kind of uh satisfaction we got out of stuff was that people said that the information we gave them help. So I like that. Anyway, uh the freezer is set to negative nineteen C, which is roughly minus four Fahrenheit for you guys uh here in uh Fahrenheit land.
+
+[10:20] And using the turbo button, which we don't have, which I assume is a fan speeding thing to increase air circulation on the inside of your freezer, which is a good idea. I wish all freezers had kind of an increased circulation uh technique on the inside of the freezer to handle large loads like that when they couldn't, is rated to handle nineteen kilograms of freezing per twenty four hours. Uh, it is a frost-free model made by Mela uh Liebher, which we get Mila, but we don't get the fridges over here, do we? I don't think so. It's a I associate that more with uh Europe, yeah.
+
+[10:49] Um that seems to be designed to minimize the freeze thaw cycle by sealing the drawers and dehumidifying. Uh my question is, how long can I keep this frozen stuff? The online guide, say one month for stock, three for prepared meals and fish. Yet the snap frozen wild-caught shrimp I have purchased, have a shelf life of 18 plus months. What's the deal?
+
+[11:10] Ah, excellent question. What's the deal? Here's the deal. Um the freezing uh shelf life, uh the the frozen shelf life of products, and this is a dirty secret that no one tells you. When you are uh looking at the shelf life of a refrigerated product, most people think what you're talking about is how long can it stay in the refrigerator and still be safe, right?
+
+[11:33] Because bacteria can still grow, molds can grow in the fridge. And so in the fridge, shelf life is a safety concern. However, when someone is rating the shelf life of a product, they're actually rating two separate things. They're rating one, is it going to be safe to consume? And two, is it going to taste good?
+
+[11:50] Right? So there are plenty of things that exceed their shelf life in the fridge or in the freezer, but are still safe. Now, in the fridge, it actually is dual situation. Safety and uh safety and palatability. In the freezer, it's ex it's almost exclusively, shelf life is almost exclusively based on is it going to taste good or cook well once it gets out?
+
+[12:14] And the culprits uh in a freezer are one, freeze-thaw over time, right? So they have to assume a general uh, you know, a certain kind of level of quality of your of your fridge. Freezer, rather. So most freezers thermally cycle quite a bit and go up and down, up and down. In any home freezer, not a hundred percent of the water in a product is frozen unless you're talking about pure water ice.
+
+[12:37] Because not all of it is frozen, any time the temperature goes up and down, some more of the concentrated, basically everything that's in your meat, like salt, proteins, all those things are in a very concentrated solution. They uh water increases and decreases, and when every time it does, smaller ice crystals inside of your product tend to grow because the smallest ice crystals typically are going to melt all the way first, and then when they re when they refreeze, they'll freeze back onto the larger crystals. So ice crystal size increases over time in your freezer, and as a result, those larger ice crystals penetrate cell walls and whatnot and cause for more drip loss, which means when you thaw it, more of the inside juices of your product are going to drip out, rendering your product more crappy. So the longer period of time it spends in a freezer that's opened and closed a lot and goes through a lot of uh freeze thaw cycles, the crappier your product is. And so that's a major influence on shelf life.
+
+[13:27] Another uh problem with shelf life is it things that are exposed to uh actual atmosphere on the inside of your fridge, whether inside of a package or uh or not, tend to um what happens is they grow crystals on the outside and the and the surface of the meat become uh dehydrated due to sublimation and then recrystallization, etc. It's called uh freeze um freezer burn. And so this is a uh a situation that deteriorates over time, right? And so this is another reason why certain things have a specific shelf life. You minimize this by reducing any opportunity for your pro the product's surface to not be covered.
+
+[14:01] So if you're vacuum bagging, this reduces a lot of that. Or even if you're bagging something and you remove most of the air such that all the surface is in contact with uh something that's gonna prevent sublimation of of water, you're preventing that. The third thing is that because you're actually in a concentrated solution and not totally frozen, right, uh certain oxidative changes and other changes, enzymatic changes, whatnot, can take place in a freezer. Rincidity of fats is one that's uh very well known. Fats can become more rancid in the freezer if they're stored.
+
+[14:28] Uh and you're reducing that by vacuuming at a high level of vacuum. So you want to, you know, a high, high level of vacuum when you're doing this. And that's going to retard those kinds of things, thereby increasing uh the shelf life on the inside of a freezer. So the steps that you're taking, right, should ensure that you have a very long shelf life, right? The one thing you should note is that freezing is not a prevention, if freezing doesn't kill bacteria necessarily, so the safety of a product when you go when it goes into the freezer isn't any better than it is when it comes out.
+
+[14:58] The freezer just arrests uh kind of any sort of bacterial degradation during its freeze time. Uh if you actually want to preserve things for dang near infinity, you need a freezer that actually does freeze all the way down to the point where everything in the product is frozen, and for that you need a super deep freeze, like our friends Mark Ladner has over there at the Del Posto that keeps things at like minus 79 uh I think Fahrenheit or Celsius, I forget which, which uh in French is dang cold, and most people can't do at home. And in there, there's no uh liquid water left in the substance at all. And so, in essence, it's in uh suspended animation. Okay.
+
+[15:32] Next, I'm a big fan of the sous vide octopus tentacles as they are tender, but don't have the honeyish taste that seems to come out when cooked conventionally for a long time in stews. Um my question is uh sorry, uh cooking stews. After much experimentation and ruling out suppliers, uh I got octopus from Victorian and West Australian sources. I've worked out that timings uh in the both Under Pressure book and the Modernist Cuisine book result in an overcooked papy mess that falls to bits or delaminates, for want of a uh want of a better word. Prior to sealing, the legs are blanched for 45 seconds in a big pot of water and sealed to a medium vacuum.
+
+[16:06] The size of the octopus doesn't seem to influence the time that much of cooking, but the common about uh common across any cooking time is that the legs seem to lose a lot of fluid that sets and sets in much the same way as a gelatin, and they never seem to look like the pictures. Not that I'm complaining, they still taste good, and the octoo makes a great addition to sauces and to and makes a mean ramen. Doing some tests, I've worked out that the timing needs to be reduced one point uh one to one point five hours, about twenty-five to thirty percent of the recommended cooking times. By the way, uh under pressure, I consulted it, and uh their recommended octopus uh cooking is 77 degrees Celsius for five hours. Um but size seems to make little uh these can be big critters where I come from with uh four tentacles weighing in at over 1.8 kilograms, which is like uh almost five pounds for us uh Americans here.
+
+[16:52] But size seems to make little difference. I think this is a result of the practice of tenderizing that occurs down here using a freeze thaw cycle or a small cement mixer. Uh but I'm interested to get your take on it, Chains Jeers. Jeers James. Uh I like that.
+
+[17:05] Jeers. From Chains. That's gonna be my that's gonna be my that's gonna be my uh sign off on letters Jeers. See if anyone gets it. Anyway, uh so Nastashi, remember when we cooked that giant octopus?
+
+[17:16] Were you there that day? Yeah, so True World Foods, which is a Japanese supplier, and uh which, you know, Yuji uh Haraguchi, who now is working here at Robertas and has his own ramen shop. Yuji! Go Yuji anyway. Yuji used to be our supplier from True World, and uh he once got us a giant octopus tentacle.
+
+[17:32] Remember that sucker? That thing was big. Uh and here's the and we cooked it. And before I go on, because I'm gonna forget to mention it. The interesting thing that no one talks about with octopus cookery, uh, and that Nils and I used to think about quite a bit and only had a couple times to experiment with, is that, and McGee talked about, we talked about a lot in the McGee, Harold McGee classes, who I'm gonna see next week at Harvard, by the way.
+
+[17:52] Next week uh cooking issues is gonna be in Harvard. I can see if I can. I gotta see if we can do the show from Harvard, though. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, because we're doing the Harvard uh lecture again next week.
+
+[18:03] Uh okay, octopus, by the way, I'm sorry, I have so many, so many diversions that no one knows what I started talking about, but this you have to excuse me. That's how my brain works. So octopus are like the smartest things, uh, like the one of the smartest things in the in the ocean. They only live for like two, like some are even shorter, but like the big ones, like two, three years. And then after they uh either the males after they do their business, you know what I mean, with the women, right?
+
+[18:28] They uh go senile and just start wandering around on the floor and let themselves get uh of the ocean and start letting themselves get eaten by anything that goes around. They go, it's called senility, it's senescence. So this is literally what happens. The males do that, right? And then they're like, and they wander around the floor and just get eaten and taken apart and stuff like that.
+
+[18:45] The female octopus, whatever, they don't give a crap anymore. It's like literally like they just wander around on the floor of the ocean drunk and crazy and then get eaten. The female octopus holds itself up, like doesn't eat anymore, and sits there with its funnel, just uh airy, like you know, blowing uh uh water over the surface of its eggs to prevent uh kind of parasites from attaching and to protect them in case the the uh poop hits the fan down there. Then as soon as the eggs hatch, she wanders off and dies and starves or whatever, and it's done. Yeah.
+
+[19:14] So anyway, so there's these weird things that are uh that are incredibly smart, like kind of amazing, they have amazing skin, amazing abilities, like cephalopods in general, of which octopus is my favorite. Uh although probably not to eat, probably squid is my favorite to eat, cephalopod. I think it goes like this. I think it goes squid, then octopus, cuttlefish being dead last in my in my cephalopod ranking of eating. Anyway, they're like incredibly smart, and if they live for even like, you know, twice or three times as long, it's it's my feeling that we would have octopus butlers on like uh in like aquariums on motors, like following us around, like doing our work for us because they would have evolved to that much higher level of thinking.
+
+[19:55] And if they lived an order of magnitude longer, like 30 years, I have no question that they would have evolved to the point where they'd be out here just kicking our behinds left and right, and that we'd be in little cages and they'd be marveling at how well we could unscrew a jar with our tentacles. Really? I.e. fingers. Yeah, man.
+
+[20:09] They're really amazing creatures, but delicious. Anyway, something you might not know is that the different tentacles of an octopus taste different, right? Uh so they have dominant tentacles and non-dominant tentacles. So that's an interesting thing. Especially because we usually eat octopus like hacked up in a salad.
+
+[20:24] There's no way to know. And also, the texture of the tentacle is radically different depending on where in the tentacle you get it. So we did a comparative tasting of this giant octopus tentacle from the base of the tentacle all the way to the tip. And it's been many years since we did it. Uh, but I believe the sweet spot was somewhere uh like towards the first third of the of the tentacle.
+
+[20:43] I not the thin part. You didn't like the thin part, right? That's the more rubbery part. That's the more rubbery part. Uh and by rubbery I mean like the same texture as the small part of the lobster claw.
+
+[20:52] You know the small part of the lobster claw has that weird texture? Yeah. So the uh I believe the tip of the tentacle has that kind of a texture more, which makes sense if you think about it. Uh, but you don't want the very base either. I think it was uh the big like right around the first third.
+
+[21:05] And you could do that in this tentacle because it was like three feet long. It was crazy. Uh and so uh the way we did it similar to the way you did. We did Japanese style where it's slowly dipped tentacle point first so that curls into itself, then put in a bag and vacuumed. And it does indeed release a lot of goo.
+
+[21:19] And this is the difference between oven cooking something or or or pot cooking something and doing it in a bag, because the one thing that people always uh stop don't think about or rarely think about when they're cooking in a vacuum bag, is there's no reduction inside that bag at all. And so what that means is all the juices that are exuded from the meat itself end up in the bag. Uh that said, so you're not going to get that concentration, which is where that honeyness is coming from that you get if it's kind of reducing in its own goo over time in an oven. Uh that said that octagoo is delicious, but I don't think there's any way that you uh can get around uh get around that. As for the other problem you had, which is uh the shorter cooking time.
+
+[21:58] I haven't done a comparative study. I know about freestyling, which talking about before is basically ice crystals rupturing the uh flesh so that when it thaws out it it's gonna drip, but then also be more tender. Uh that works, uh and so does uh the technique we call beating the hell out of, which is also practiced by some people, but I myself have never run a comparative study of a non-frozen versus a fresh octopus, and I've never run a comparative study of a beaten the hell out of versus not the beaten hell out of uh of an octopus. So I can't really speak to whether or not your octopus is different from our octopus, and by that I mean whether your octopus is different from Nathan Miravold's octopus and uh Thomas Keller's octopus, which are the two uh sources that you cited. Um that said, some people like their octopus to be a papy mess, which I I don't.
+
+[22:40] I I like a little more tooth in uh in the octopus. Uh Nastasha, what do you like? A mushy mess or more tooth? Tooth. Tooth.
+
+[22:47] Yeah. So it could just also be a matter of taste because one person's mush is another person's uh tender. And so I think that's a nice way of saying, right? So I I don't know, it's really all a matter of matter of taste. I didn't time it when we did it.
+
+[22:58] We literally did it by pulling the bag out of the water and squeezing it. We also, I believe, did it at a much higher temperature. I don't think when we do our tests, we did our tests at 77. Um, I think we did it a good bit higher, like 85. So I can't really speak to it, but we did not cook for five hours.
+
+[23:14] There's no way on God's earth we cooked that thing for five hours. We just kept pulling it out of the bag and squeezing it. In our opinion, the amount of time did make a difference uh based on size. And the reason I say this is because the tips of the tentacles were differently done from the base of the tentacles. So the size did make uh a significant difference, in our opinion, but that also could be that the different parts of the muscle were different.
+
+[23:34] So we didn't test, we didn't basically we're schmucks, we're schmucks. What we should have done is is taken the octopus tentacle and sectioned it all the way down in an exactly uh you know same sized uh strip all the way down and tasted it along the length. But you can't do that either because uh octopus muscle, uh the way it's structured, uh it it's a uh it's what do they call it? A hydrostat, hydraulic hydrostat, something like that. There's a word for the way octopus muscles work, and it's the same way that our tongue works.
+
+[24:02] Our tongues are articulated such that we can move them in any direction even though there's no bones. And so there's a particular muscular arrangement in an octopus, same as an elephant's trunk, that allows that to happen. And so uh taking an internal portion of it's not gonna be the same as taking the external portion. So you can't win. Turns out, as usual, Nastasha, you can't win.
+
+[24:18] Wait, you never wrote a post on that, did you? No, of course I never wrote the post on that. I just have the information in my head. I didn't never write the post. We have the pictures, it was Piper who did it.
+
+[24:25] Uh and as an uh shout out to someone who's gonna buy the Bammox, clean the Bam. This is also from James. Uh, cleaning the Bammox is really easy. Run it in hot soapy water, then clean water and wipe down the housing. The blades grip really well, and I've used the units that are 25 years old, they're still going strong.
+
+[24:39] Make sure you get a 240 watt for home use, badass power, bamics from James. Uh, it's not our commercialized James. I was just reading it with my commercial voice. Yeah. With that, let's take our first break.
+
+[24:44] Cooking issues. So you don't shot the devil with your rock and roll on knows that coaching music is gonna say your soul. Rebel bosses groove in the rhythm and blow that sale. It's gonna get you side in the air. And those things that took you will.
+
+[25:21] So God's fearing man of team to what advances. The rock game open to escape. It's a telling you. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Did you know that pollinators are needed for more than two-thirds of the world's crop species?
+
+[25:44] Most of these pollinators are bees. However, North America's bee population has been steadily declining since the 1990s. Whether you live in the country or the city, you can show your commitment by hosting the hive in your backyard or even on a rooftop. The beekeeping movement is growing, so you're sure to find swarms of folks who can help you find your way. Learn more about the ways you can help be the solution at WholeFoodsmarket.com slash share the buzz.
+
+[26:16] You'll see them stones in hell by the village as well. Really, Jack, really, Jack, be the solution. That's not like happy. I thought it was kind of nice. So what music are we listening to?
+
+[26:30] It's uh more of Damon's band, brothers. Damon Bolti! Are we gonna get a shout out to the sh to the uh to the thing next week or not? Are you gonna give a shout-out to it? Come to the Heritage Radio!
+
+[26:41] And what is the annual fundraising party? It's right here. Our first annual fundraiser. First annual members only fundraising party at Roberta's Pizzeria on Sunday, September the what, eighth? You gotta give me the cotton, oh yeah.
+
+[26:54] September. I don't have in front of you. Look, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna scream like monster truck things, you have to have it in front of you. It's hard to put the monster truck voice on and add lib at the same time. Is it sold out?
+
+[27:04] Some additions. Yeah? We have sellers at Jasper Hill gonna bring cheese. Good Gript type from Dap Tone Records is gonna be DJing Funk and Soul with special guests. And get this, Brian Kenny, the guy you know from the Hearst Ranch commercial playing songs.
+
+[27:18] No way. Well, I I now there's something I have to say. If he's not gonna play it, we're not doing it. That's it. I think he'll do it.
+
+[27:27] Okay. Alright, because I was about to walk out. Like I Nastash and I have decided that uh our New Year's resolution last year, and it's a little late, so we'll have to do it again for this year, is to be complete divas at all times, right? Yes. You don't have the yellow Skittles.
+
+[27:39] I'm out! There is Perie Jouay, so that means I'm gonna be here. Nice. Did I mention what a badass uh pastry cook commit is? Yeah, he is.
+
+[28:03] Yeah. That's Brooks Hedley! How's this for a menu item description? Sidewalk greens and toast. Sidewalk greens.
+
+[28:13] Sidewalk greens. Uh, let me tell you, you can collect lots of sidewalk greens on the lower east side. I just don't happen to pick them. I'm a little nervous about the exhaust fumes from the in uh in my uh lamb's quarters. I'm assuming these were not from the lower east side.
+
+[28:25] I'm assuming it's lamb's bushwick. I hope not. I'm assuming it's lambs quarters. Those things grow all over the city. Like there's lamb's quarters all over the city that you can just pick and use.
+
+[28:34] Like personally, I guess. No, no, it's like Oric, it's like it's like a salad green, it's good. It does not, it's not like that source. It's good. But I mean, again, I've only collected it not next to uh where I've seen homeless people poop.
+
+[28:47] What? That's true. I'm not saying there's homeless poop in this dish, people. You should still pay the money and come to the members only party. Jack's horrified now.
+
+[28:54] All of a sudden Jack stops talking about it. I'm out. Hey, look, homeless people's poop washes off the same as horse and dog poop does, so don't worry about it. So it's heritage radio network.eventbrite.com. How much are the tickets?
+
+[29:07] They're 150, but you're a cooking issues listener, so you can use the code cooking issues for a $50 discount. Oh, snap. Has anyone used our code yet? I'll have to check that out. Yeah, uh uh are you gonna charge more if you come to the door?
+
+[29:20] No. VIP is two fifty. And you're at the VIP. And for that, Nastasha will smile at you while she has the glass of Pierre Jouay in her hand. My my one of my favorite things about Nastasha, and this is true favorite thing, is that this she is she is a sucker for champagne.
+
+[29:37] Loves as do I, by the way. I love champagne. Love it. And uh and Nastasha loves champagne so much that even if we're trying to serve a cocktail, instead of drinking our cocktail to like to sell the cocktail that we're making, she's like, crap, but no, I want champagne. I want me some champagne.
+
+[29:51] Well, if you put strawberry in it, you're a strawberry. Is that what we're gonna do? I think so. Yeah, that's what we're doing. When well, it's not gonna be strawberry, it's gonna be a different fruit that's in season.
+
+[30:00] But something like that. Something like that. Okay. Uh buy the dang tickets. Support this show by buying the tickets with our code so that people know that this is a PBS thing here, right?
+
+[30:11] This is our PBS pitch so that they know that you know you care about if you care about quality programming, like cooking issues radio, show your support by becoming a member of Heritage Radio Today. Right? Is that sound more like what they would say? PBS voice. Yeah, thank you.
+
+[30:25] Uh okay, another question from Co F Miles about Coon Recon pressure cookers. I'm a long time listener to your cooking issues radio show, albeit offline, and seriously, time delay via the podcast. The question may be more for David, uh, because Nastasha doesn't care. I'm just messing. But I've been experimenting with an eight-quart coon recon pressure cooker.
+
+[30:45] I would now like to start making healthy quantities of stock. Uh uh, that means big. I'm looking for a cooker between 28 and 30 quarts. To date, I've uh been able to find only aluminum cookers in that size. Since my stove is induction, I need stainless steel cookers or one with a stainless steel bottom plate.
+
+[30:59] Do you guys know where I might look? Thanks in advance, coF Miles. No. There is, as far as I know, no easily uh purchaseable pressure cooker uh that is uh that large, other than the ones made by uh American like American Pressure Cooker, American, it's Wisconsin Foundry, and they make the large ones. And Nastasha, we have one with the screw down things that look a little bit.
+
+[31:23] What? This question? It was no, yeah. Yeah, I did care. That's fair, fair.
+
+[31:29] I'm gonna take that as a smack. By the way, what you're hearing now is Nastasha's, I get beaten on by Dave on the radio show. Again, if you guys heard even one twelfth of what she says to me off air, you would have no sympathy. I'm just saying that because that's her ploy. It's her ploy.
+
+[31:44] I looked it up this morning because I was like, this guy thinks I won't know the answer. So he's asking David. Oh, you see, it's it's it's actually because you see, you never know what she's gonna take personally. You're getting better insight into the Lopez mind here, by the way, folks, which I appreciate. Uh but there is a simple solution for you.
+
+[32:04] Um the simple solution is they say uh you can buy this, it's preposterously overpriced, but you can look online for the Max Burton uh eight-inch induction interface disc. And it's just a slug of stainless steel with a handle on it that you put in between the induction burner and your uh stainless steel, uh your aluminum in um pressure cooker, and with that, you can then there also do uh ceramics, glass, you can heat anything because the induction burner is instead of heating your pot directly, is heating a steel slug in between your pot and the thing. It's not as efficient or as fast as um as a normal uh you know induction in a pot, right? Because you're not heating the pot directly, but it is m still fairly efficient, and I haven't tested it myself, but it should be fairly fast, not as fast, but fairly fast. Won't be on on obviously on ceramics because it takes a long time for the heat to travel through a ceramic no matter how it's applied.
+
+[32:57] But they charge like a hundred bucks for it, which is an outrage. You can just buy a like a steel plate like eight by eight or like twelve by twelve, but you really want to fit the size of your pot. You can just buy a steel plate online. Doesn't have to be stainless, even stainless is nicer and it won't rust. But uh anything like that, a slug uh to put in there.
+
+[33:13] But look at so you can get the basic like look of how it looks. Max Burton 8-inch induction interface disc with heat-proof handle, and that's your solution. If you're worried about putting um stuff inside of aluminum because you think that there's a taste issue, although I cook in aluminum quite often, you know, barring certain, you know, highly whatever. Anyway, uh, you can put a bain marie on the inside of it, a large bain marie on the inside of one of those pressure cookers and still make a large quantity of stock, or you can cook directly in the aluminum. One last thing.
+
+[33:40] If you have a lot of space, money, and power, you can buy a used autoclave, which is a medical piece of equipment uh that functions ha as a pressure cooker, and you can actually use an autoclave as an extremely large pressure cooker, but unless you uh you know, you have c have to keep it in your garage or something like that. But that's what they use. They use Frankie, the instrument uh the uh uh equipment company sells uh autoclaves that are repurposed for kitchens. Uh and also I think I forget who makes them here, uh Market Forage pressure cookers that are basically like autoclaves that are meant for kitchens, but they're not often used outside of industrial institutional cooking here, and in Europe they're used like Nils used to use them in Sweden on large amounts of uh potatoes. Okay.
+
+[34:20] Uh hi, Dave, uh Nastash Joe and Jack. This is coming in from uh Arny Skaug in Norway. Um listening to your podcast yesterday and a few tips for the guy who asked about shrimp cakes and sausages. I'm Norwegian. Uh in Norway, uh fish cakes are traditional popular way of processing fish, commonly made from cod, haddock, and pollock.
+
+[34:39] Homemade fish cakes invariably use egg, flour, and potato starch as a binder. It is said that not using a binder renders them short, that is grainy. Commercially made fish cakes use different binders like tapioca and contain only from 40 to 60 percent fish. However, I've been experimenting on using a different approach, wanting to use as much fits as possible for flavor, and I've been using a method adopted from research I've done on sausage making. I read somewhere, I think, in an article by Lynn Knipe, associate professor of Ohio State, uh, that uh in the meat department that regulating the pH value of meat of meat is a good way of obtaining uh good primary bind and sausage.
+
+[35:09] I lost the article on the computer crash and can't find it again, so this is from memory. The article says that a relatively high pH in meat helps solubleze myosin and meats. It also says poor slaughtering practices can result in meats with a low pH value due to improper chilling. Uh and also for animals that freaked out when they die, the pH can drop quick because they have not enough glycogen in them. Anyway, this promotes the breakdown of glycogen in the muscles.
+
+[35:28] However, a higher pH also increases the water holding capacity of proteins. Um, uh I've used this experiment to uh I've used this information to uh experiment regulating pH in sausage meat, and I usually incorporate sodium carbonate in the salt about one to two percent uh by weight of salt. I wonder whether he's actually means sodium carbonate or whether he means bicarbon, not sure. Uh but go look up Harold McGee on sodium carbonate versus bicarbon. He's basically raising the pH of the meat.
+
+[35:51] This greatly improves the binding capacity of the sausage, sometimes too much, and the sausage becomes rubbery. In those cases, I add vinegar to the sausage meat and mix well, which loosens the texture again. Back to shellfish protein, I've used the same technique with fish cakes uh with good results and believe it'll be worth trying. It's interesting. Um I've also experienced uh experienced that the freshness of the fish is important, but I don't know if this is because of pH.
+
+[36:10] What you're talking about there, and he agrees with me on the grinding and stuffing and says you use a sausage stuffer, but they're expensive because the auger in a meat grinder heats up the meat again. You can buy inexpensive sausage stuffers in this country if you go to like Harbor Freight or Northern Tools or Grizzly and buy sausage stuffers that are intended for hunters. They're not as well built as the normal kitchen ones, but they'll work. You can buy a five-pound sausage stuffer for under with a hand crank for under uh a hundred bucks, I think. Um, so the article he's talking about, which you should read, is by Lynn L Y N N Knipe, K N I P E Meat Export Research Center of Iowa State University, which is why we had problems, and it's called use of phosphates in sausage.
+
+[36:45] Read it. Uh it says a lot about phosphates, which increases the water holding capacity and also helps fat emulsification by uh altering the ionic balance in that. So go ahead and read it. Uh Arnie will be in New York in February and March of next year. Are there any classes he can take?
+
+[36:57] I'm gonna have Nastasha look into that and we'll talk about it next because I don't know when my classes are. They tell me like a day before and I just show up and cook them kindly. Uh William writes in about milk. Howdy all. I love making custard based ice cream.
+
+[37:09] I understand that tempering the egg yolks is a normal procedure, especially for food safety. Are there other benefits to tempering the yolks? Why not use pasteurized eggs? Sous pasteurized or Davidson's brand pasteurizing and skip the tempering altogether. Also, I live next door to a dairy farm that offers raw milk and cream.
+
+[37:23] My country living folks tell me that I should still paste the raw milk, so I never bothered going there. I've never had raw milk. Does it really taste much better? Okay, first of all, on the custard ice cream. There is a difference between un uh like ones that haven't been cooked out and ones that have.
+
+[37:36] If you look at it, a creme on glaze base is thicker than if you just blended the ingredients together. So I've never tasted side by side, same recipe, cooked uh normally versus not cooked, okay? But like cooked actually to an on glaze, up to like 82 to 15 minutes in a uh Celsius for 15 minutes in a circulator. However, um I'm assuming that you're gonna get a faster meltdown in the one that hasn't been cooked out just because there's a higher uh viscosity in the one that has been cooked. That said, Sam Mason, who's like an ice cream genius, like you know, like like an ice cream savant almost.
+
+[38:07] He's crazy ice cream delicious, doesn't like the taste of cooked eggs in his custards and doesn't cook therefore the custards. And I just started experimenting with low temperature, uh basically pasteurizing my uh ice creams at like 60 degrees Celsius or 62 degrees Celsius, which is what I did when I was in Columbia last. And they're great. So, you know, I don't think that there's uh uh in other words, you can make and Sam makes some of the most delicious ice cream that I've ever had in my life, uh, and that stuff uh he doesn't he doesn't cook it out. So I think it's m mainly a safety issue.
+
+[38:38] Uh and when I cook for myself, generally, I just take the salmonella risk and eat it without pasteurizing. But I've been having to cook for pregnant people recently, so I pasteurize the stuff out now at like 60. Um, on raw milk, does it taste better or does it taste worse? I am going to defer to uh Ann Mendelson, who wrote a book on milk. Uh and her argument on raw milk uh versus not raw milk is in I think incredibly well put, and she basically says that most people who talk about raw milk versus uh pasteurized milk come at it from some crazy perspective other than taste.
+
+[39:09] And she is a taste person. She says she's had that most pasteurized milk uh that you get, it's also homogenized pasteurized milk, by the way, uh, is bad in the supermarkets compared to what the best milk can be. However, just having it be raw uh doesn't make it better. The best milk she's had have been raw milks, but they've been from you know very small like producers who take a lot of care, have the right kind of cows, have the right kind of feed and X, Y, and Z. So her main point, which is the best point, and and it you so rarely read food writing where people come at it from what I think is the correct point of view, which is uh it's not it's this you know she's not starting from a preconceived notion of what's best.
+
+[39:50] She's saying, hey, taste is the notion that I'm shooting for, what makes it taste better. So she's had horrible raw milk and she's had fantastic raw milk. And so uh go read her discussion of it in her book on milk uh and see see what you think. Chris Young, uh, you know, from Modernist Cuisine, you know, interestingly points out that it taste is a matter of taste. In Africa, right, everyone likes the taste of what we think is ridiculously overcooked milk.
+
+[40:12] And if you tried to give them milk that taste as close to coming out of the cow as possible, they would think it's awful because they prefer the taste of cooked milk. So taste is taste. Uh while I was doing this, I looked up a website called uh RealMilkfacts.com, which is a shill out for a uh law firm called uh Marlar Clark, and this is a law firm that deals in food poisoning. So they're big on they make they make money based on suing people as a result of uh food poisoning. Uh that's that's how they do it.
+
+[40:37] So wait, but uh they they have some uh interesting things, and from them I got to the CDC. The CDC uh is on a uh uh basically a crusade now to stop people from wanting to ask for raw milk because they see that there's a huge surge in popularity in raw milk uh now among kind of health crunchies and then taste advocates. And so they have a big thing. So look up uh uh real raw milkfacts.com and they point to these two cases of kids. I would never serve raw milk, by the way, to like a young kid, because if they get an E.
+
+[41:08] coli breakout problem with a young kid, there's lots of things you wouldn't serve to a young kid other than just raw milk because of the possibility of uh of a breakdown. Um I'm not gonna have enough time to fully go through classes are the only one they have online, and it's hard to find, is um CV intensive September 28th, 29th of this month. I don't think they're doing hydrochloroids anymore. But if enough people No, no, no. We're supposed to teach one called Cooking Issues, but like we never never uh Well, maybe you should take that over and do it at this base.
+
+[41:38] Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, uh I I think I'm gonna have to go more into this uh pasteurization, not pasteurization and and and health and not next week, but I would like to point you to a a website before we go that I just when I was researching this stuff came across and uh they uh NHS, which is the National Health Services of Uh Britain, which by the way I grew up uh completely frightened of because my you know my parents uh uh well, you know, I grew up with my dad's an injured, and my mom's a doctor, and my stepfather's a doctor, so I grew up in kind of a doctory kind of a household. And I I I'm not gonna have a time to go into this, but basically, so they you know, when I was a kid, they were like, you know you think that the healthcare in Britain is great but if you're over the age of 65 and you need dialysis they let you die this was back in the like 80s so I don't that's probably not the case anymore and whatever yeah I'm gonna get some calls on this crap. But um an interesting website that's put out by the NHS is called um how to read health news oh it's called Choices behind the headlines and one of the articles in it is how to read the health news by Alicia White. And we need a website like this in this country where it's basically uh they go and they debunk all of the health related claims that are made in the news so like a big news story hits like uh you know gastric bypass surgery surges in the UK and then they'll go and they'll be like no it's not actually surged because we're a nation of like you know millions and millions of people and you know it increased from like a thousand to three thousand so yeah it's like three three hundred percent more but that's still like a drop in the bucket stuff like that.
+
+[43:09] And they they actually break down studies and why they're crap and then also say how the news media is misinterpreting scientific studies and not doing their research. So anyone involved in healthcare and health and uh research should in the US should check out how they're doing it in Britain and we'll talk more about that. Hopefully we'll get a comment on it and it's called uh behind the headlines on the NHS uh website at NHS I think dot UK look up how to read health news by Dr. Alicia White uh and and that maybe we'll talk more about it next week if I'm back next week we might have to skip a week depends on whether we have time when I'm at Harvard. Are we teaching on Tuesday?
+
+[43:46] I don't think so. Midnight. Tuesday night? So then maybe we can do the show live from Harvard with Harold McGee cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[44:09] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[44:33] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:21] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 at the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Buschwick, Brooklyn. Jack decided not to show up today because uh well, we had the fundraiser over the weekend and now he's just too big for us, right, Joe? Yeah, he's doing presidential things right now, I'm guessing.
+
+[0:58] Yeah, he's just, you know, he's like smoking, you know, tobacco rolled in hundred dollar bills and all kinds of crazy stuff over there in the Heritage Radio uh headquarters. But thankfully Joe is with us, and as always, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Yeah.
+
+[1:11] Apologize that we were not able to do the live uh cooking issues uh with uh Harold McGee over at the Harvard because we just couldn't do it. We had to we let I mean that's all there was to it. We couldn't do it. We were prepping out. The class started as the show would have been ending, and that would have been uh that would have been a big poop show had we done that, right?
+
+[1:30] Mm-hmm. True. True. True. Uh so speaking of McGee, uh Harold McGee and I will be in London, and we're gonna go to the Prague Dale in Fanisham, where Nastasha and I went like a year and a half ago, maybe.
+
+[1:43] Yeah. It was two years ago? Two years ago. Two years ago. And uh it is well, okay, look, okay, look.
+
+[1:50] All right, fine. Geneva, New York, uh, is where all of our, when I say R, I mean the good old US of A, where all of our uh apples are stored. And the way you store an apple is by planting trees, right? So they don't just like literally store I mean, they also store seeds in liquid nitrogen like sperm banks, but uh a lot of people don't really believe in that because they think that the seeds might mutate over time, etc. blah blah blah.
+
+[2:13] People like to own the freaking trees, right? Then also, if you have the trees, you can see how they respond to various things. And the the reason that our tax money goes to it isn't because people uh the people who decide the tax money stuff think that you know we should have wide variety of delicious apples. They're more worried that some crazy apple disease is gonna come through and kill every apple except that one crazy variety that they saved, right? At least that's the original genesis, the reason there's money behind this project.
+
+[2:39] And so all of our apples are in Geneva. And uh Geneva, New York has the greatest collection of apples in anywhere in the world. But but the Brogdale in Favisham in Kent, England, an hour outside of London, is uh where they have the largest culinary apple collection. So the way they get around this is is there's a crazy guy, Phil Force Line, who used to go to Kazakhstan, which is where apples come from, and he would gather all kind of wild apples. I don't know how the hell he smuggled the seeds back into the US or went there when some crazy quarantine situation or whatever, uh because they have huge genetic diversity of uh different apple varieties, as well as other fruits actually, in this thing called the Tian Shen Fruit Forest, which stretches from China to Kazakhstan, uh and it's a huge, kind of apparently incredibly beautiful, awesome place, and one of the places on earth actually that I really want to go.
+
+[3:26] Anyway, uh so he went there and just collected a bajillion different kinds of wild uh you know, malice apple species, and planted them in at Cornell up in Geneva, and it's uh it just so that obliterated the Brogdale's collection in terms of sheer numbers. But Brogdale has the culinary apple collection to beat in the world. However, however, I'm extremely partial to the flavor of apples as grown in upstate New York. So we've been to the apple collection, but when we went to the Brogdale Apple collection, Nastasha and I, I was sidelined by the fact that they also have an incredibly awesome collection of pears. And actually, you know what we missed last time is uh there should still be a couple plums on the trees.
+
+[4:06] But see, here's what's but it's nut season, so they're gonna have all the nuts. In fact, we're gonna miss the nut festival. I mean, it'll be the nut festival with Harold and I there, but we're gonna miss the official nut festival by uh a couple of days. But the here's what's amazing about the Brogdale and why anyone that lives anywhere near London and uh doesn't or hasn't been to the Brogdale a bunch of times, honestly should be incredibly ashamed of themselves. They should just be, you know, you should be I I don't know, you should wear a hair shirt and a dunce cap and go into the corner uh and just you know beat yourself with sticks uh out of out of you know anguish that you've missed this huge portion of your life so close to this amazing resource and you haven't gone yet.
+
+[4:49] Would you say it's accurate? They could join you, can't they? I don't know, I don't know exactly what time I'm gonna be. Literally, say so McGee and I well for first of all. So the Brogdale, unlike us, where our pears are in Corvallis, uh, Oregon, and our berries are in Corvallis, Oregon, and we have uh our apples in Geneva, New York, and our our collections of germplasm are spread all all over the uh all over the country.
+
+[5:13] Uh the the English basically, can only grow stuff in Kent. Uh come on, no no offense. But you can take offense if you want. But anyway, so their entire collection of stuff is at this one place. So it's kind of one-stop shopping for everything, small fruits, and you know, the English, they know gooseberries like the nobody else.
+
+[5:29] They have like the gooseberry collection, but not the time of year. Anyway, uh apples, pears, nuts, plums, cherries, Kentish cherries. Anyways, so my point is is that uh I'm going to Temperate Fruit Paradise on uh on Friday. Uh like my plan my plane lands. McGee and I, we he's coming from California, I'm coming from New York.
+
+[5:50] We're meeting at Heathrow and taking a uh train directly to Favisham. We're gonna I'm gonna throw away all I'm not even gonna wear clothes. I'm just gonna dress myself in fruit and then take that fruit because we're going to our good buddy Tony Canillaro and Rhea's wedding. Congratulations to them. Uh, you know, one of my favorite bartenders in the whole.
+
+[6:07] Yeah? Yep. Yep. Okay. Calling your questions live to 7184972128.
+
+[6:12] That's 7184972128. Joe, who's bringing the show to us today? Um, it would be the International Culinary Center. The International Culinary Center. I'm doing actually a demo with them uh tomorrow.
+
+[6:22] You coming to that thing or no? I'm gonna go there today to talk to them, but I mean I don't think our viewers care about the demo for Pepsi Pepsi Pepsi Co, right? Pepsi. Anyway, okay, questions. Uh hey Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe.
+
+[6:37] Although Jack doesn't care about your question, Ron, because he's not here to listen to it. I'm just kidding. I'm just messing with Jen. Uh several shows back, we pop, we pops, you know, we pop soup, our intern, and the one of the current founders and designers, I'm assuming, of uh the uh Namako emergent circulator. Uh several shows back, Weep called to talk to you about the Namaku.
+
+[6:58] Uh Namaku and Namko. Co co, right? Coo. Coo? Yeah.
+
+[7:02] Coo. Okay. The emergent circulator designed for use in the home kitchen. Needless to say, I was extremely excited at the prospect of having an affordable low temp cooking solution out in the market. Recently, I was on the poly science website and found out that they now offer also offer a home version called the Creative Series.
+
+[7:16] And it's called like Yeah, it's all like Sous vide, and there's a Sous V creative and the Sous V Professional, and then there's the old metal one, so it's kind of confusing. But go on the website and you look at it. I think it's live on the website. I haven't seen one in real life. Anyway, hold on.
+
+[7:27] So the Namakoo will be a hundred and forty dollars cheaper than the uh Su V creative from Polyscience. Uh the heater in the Namaku is gonna have less wattage, 750 versus uh 1100. Although I really think Phillips is uh a thousand watts. The heater itself is a thousand. I don't think it's eleven hundred, but anyway, whatever.
+
+[7:41] Uh but the pump is uh more powerful uh in the Namakoo, ten liters uh per minute versus six liters per minute. The Namako claims it can actually get water to a hundred degrees C while the creative goes to ninety nine degrees C. I mean that's a meaningless stat though. I mean I wouldn't even pay attention to that. That's a meaningless stat.
+
+[7:56] You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, that's you know don't worry about that. Uh you're not gonna want to put these into anything other than water anyway. So the old metal ones with stainless steel.
+
+[8:05] Uh huh, let me finish your question first before I go crazy. Okay. Uh the rest of the specs, as far as I can tell, are about the same. Not sure if you had a chance to play with either, uh perhaps a Namakoo prototype, but I'm hoping you can give us your honest opinion on which one you would get. I'm not planning on getting one until the holidays, so the fact that the Namakoo isn't actually out yet will not affect my purchasing decision.
+
+[8:23] Also, I'm currently a student at the ICC, and I hear you'll be teaching a few classes this month. Is that true? I'm in level six, uh, which is the last level. It's the level that the students cook in the restaurant. So at the school, there's there's six levels.
+
+[8:35] The last two levels uh cook in the restaurant. So the you know, the first two you're kind of learning stuff, the third one more learning stuff. Uh fourth one, you're doing family meal for the whole school, and the five and six you're in the restaurant. Okay. Uh if you're around, I'll be sure to say hi.
+
+[8:48] I'll be the giddy Chinese guy with the sweaty palms. Thanks. Love the show, Ron Fan. So Ron, obviously not a if you have sweaty palms, not a good chocolate worker. Shouldn't work with chocolate.
+
+[8:57] Don't go into pastry, my friend. I mean, I guess you could, but I mean if you have sweaty pomps, it's gonna be difficult working with chocolate and pastry, correct? Yeah. I mean, there are certain people who are it's a known thing. Certain people have warmer palms and they have a very difficult time with things like chocolates.
+
+[9:09] Just a known fact. Anyway. Um, before I even get into this, uh look, We Pop is a friend of mine. I love myself, We Pop, and Philip Preston is a friend of mine, and I've known him for many, many years. Uh, and he's been very supportive.
+
+[9:24] So it's very hard for me to come. I you know, I can't I almost can't come down with any sort of recommendation uh on one versus uh the other because it's just it would be crazy for me. You know what I'm saying? What do you think, Styles? I mean, that's kind of like you know, Philip Preston has been gonna get one in December.
+
+[9:40] He's should be a good one. Which the Philip, the new one? The Namako? In December? Yes.
+
+[9:46] All right, I haven't touched uh I haven't touched the uh the new creative series yet, but I uh sent a note over to Philip and I was like, Philip, what should I know about the creative system uh as opposed to the other one? And his response was is that the this new one, the 499 one, is designed to have uh uh good control, very good temperature control, just like the uh the other one. Uh um have it be quiet, right? So I guess it's quieter for a home kind of situation, so the pump's not as loud, also not as uh not as you know fast, right? Uh less it's uh less demanding use, right?
+
+[10:18] Because it's not meant to run all day every day like ours do, which isn't to say you can't do a 72 hour cook, but you know, the the way these things are treated in professional kitchens is crazy. They're running twenty like almost twenty four seven sometimes. Uh you know, all the time. Uh so the current one's not designed to run all day, every day. It's got a lower cost, uh, you know, 499.
+
+[10:37] So I don't really know actually what the Namaku is coming in at. Is it really $170 dollars cheaper? Is it really $320? I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[10:44] I mean, it's hard to say. Also you never know if it's going to be sold at William Sonoma. What William Sonoma let there's a retail price and then William Sonoma is going to give you a deal or something like that. So it's very hard to say what the price is going to be. The the new poly science is going to have the same safety system as the old one did plus a float uh which I never was a big fan of float uh the float things.
+
+[11:04] People like so the float is basically in there so in case your water runs low the float drops and turns off the circulator. I've never been a giant fan of floats because it just seems like it's another thing that can fail as opposed to having uh the strap on there's a there's a strap on. There's a there's a strap on uh um thermometer, you know a temperature sensor on the heating element itself such that it goes over temp it will shut the equipment off. So I guess Philip uh I guess enough people wanted a float plus that safety system but so he put it in. Um and uh it's gonna it has a smaller pump than the than the $800 one so it's gonna have a reduced capacity.
+
+[11:39] On the note of capacity by the way capacity is one of those things that you can't really ever listen to what anybody says unless they're extremely specific about what they mean by capacity. So your capacity is gonna be limited by the wattage there's two things that limit your capacity one is your ability to circulate water. Uh that is rarely the limit uh except for in very large tanks or in viscous fluids like uh oils which I wouldn't necessarily be circulating with these guys anyway. So the the the pump output is not usually the limit on your capacity. Usually the limit on your capacity is the wattage.
+
+[12:19] Uh and that said, also when you're judging capacity, the question is not how many liters of liquid, it's how many liters of liquid plus plus plus product at what temperature in a vessel with what kind of insulation. So there's there's so many uh there's so many variables, but the the physics are what the physics are, and you can figure out uh how much uh wattage, roughly wattage you need with some back of the envelope calculations. So for me, the main the main thing is when I was talking to Weepop, the the new circulator, uh the Namakoo is uh, you know, it has a smaller capacity and it's designed to have a smaller capacity at 750 watts. And their feeling is is that's enough wattage to get away with most of the things that you're gonna want to do in your house, but they opted to have a more powerful pump. Whereas Philip was like, I don't care about the pump, uh, but I want to keep the same wattage.
+
+[13:10] Because I don't actually know why uh why the Namakoo, why they took the wattage down to 750. Weepop told me once, but I can't remember what what his explanation was because not I mean it could have been uh fitting it into the package because it's a very thin stick package. The Namaku also is very small, right? Yeah. And we haven't played with it yet.
+
+[13:26] I mean, small is good because small means it takes up less space in your bath. Anytime you can take up less space in your bath, it's probably a good thing. Um just because that space you can't be cooking products in. Um so that might be an advantage for the Namaku, but really I hesitate to make any recommendations until I play with them, uh play with both of them. Uh I will say this, uh, it is an extremely exciting time uh to uh be a cook because now almost anyone, you know, look, it's still expensive, you know, even if it's $350.
+
+[13:57] It's not like I'm gonna go out, you know, you're not like you're gonna go out and buy like buy them like their potato chips or pretzels. But it's it's in the realm of things that many, many people buy. I think it's a huge there's a huge price difference between eight hundred bucks and uh four hundred bucks or three hundred and fifty bucks, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's big difference difference.
+
+[14:14] I mean Nastasha might actually consider purchasing one instead of other uh uh yes. I said you might consider actually purchasing one. Yes, yeah, we'll leave it at that. We'll leave it, we'll just we'll just leave it right there. Um that's pretty much I mean that's all there is to say about that, yeah?
+
+[14:35] Yeah. All right. When we get it, we will tell. When we get it, when we get it, we will tell the pros and cons of each. Uh one if you know me, uh my one of the main problems is is uh I'm gonna find it difficult to lie.
+
+[14:49] So, right? I mean, like that's unf you know, it's I I I mean I can lie about many things, but not about recommending equipment. It's just a weird thing. And uh, oh, and I know I'm not teaching a class this week as far as I know I'm doing you're doing CV next week. Souve it intensive?
+
+[15:04] Last week of September. Is that next week? No, two weeks from now. Oh, so I will be in uh I will be doing it my c is the class full? I don't know.
+
+[15:12] I don't know if you want to come here spout off some crazy stuff. It's not actually, it's actually the best course that we've ever taught. I mean, like not the best, but it's good course for people who want to learn low temperature and sous vide. I'm uh I'll put it this way. I'm proud of what we do in the course because we can we can do things that are very difficult for you to do in either a home or a restaurant kitchen just for time and space reasons.
+
+[15:32] Anyway, so I guess we're teaching that in a couple weeks, last week of September. So that's when I'll be in there, Ron. I'll be in tomorrow, but I'll be dealing with the Pepsi people. Okay, should we take a first one? Signing books, yeah.
+
+[15:41] Signing books? What books? Anyway. Coming right back with cooking issues the morning by James. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[17:16] The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center dot com. And welcome back.
+
+[17:42] Okay, we have a question in from Paul who says, uh, for ethical dietary reasons, I've been baking croissant with margarine. They turn out very nice, but I'm wondering if I can get something closer to authentic if I adjust the fat in the uh quote in quotes, because it's not butter, butter block. The two main problems uh I think I face is that one, as far as I can tell, it's impossible to get unsalted margarine. And two, I'm guessing margarine I I am guessing margarine has a higher water content compared to butter. Uh secondary issues could include uh altered melting point, issues with saturated fat or trans fat content, etc.
+
+[18:18] I'm wondering if it might be possible to approximate something closer to unsalted butter in water content and reduce salt levels by making a mixture of margarine and vegetable shortening, or pro or possibly trying to match the water content by evaporating moisture from margarine, but likely increasing the salt levels on a per volume level. If it matters, the dough is relatively wet, uh moderately enriched with a small amount of fat and some sugar, given a very quick mix with low gluten development, but then spends 12 plus hours in the fridge for a rise and a developed gluten and flavor. Any thoughts, thanks, Paul. Okay. So um yeah, here's the thing.
+
+[18:50] First of all, you know, you have to be making sure anyway that you're using a margarine that has uh um that if you if you if you don't want the butter, I'm assuming you don't want any I'm assuming you want vegan, right? That's the assumption. Right. And so uh, you know, there are I'm and I'm therefore I'm sure you're aware of the fact that many margarines contain um milk, um actual milk in the f for flavor in it, milk products in it for flavor. Uh some are artificially butter flavored, and I'm sure you can get just a plastic fat without the flavoring, but blow.
+
+[19:23] Uh right or wrong. Right. Yeah. Uh okay, so here's the thing. Uh I did some preliminary poking around.
+
+[19:29] It's been a long time since I've researched uh margarine because I do eat dairy, and so I'm a margarine, I'm a I'm a I'm a hater. Right? I'm a hater. Uh but the the the key thing, uh I don't know. So uh margarines, I guess, can can have different uh different water levels in it.
+
+[19:49] But the the key thing about a margarine, so butter is what butter is, right? It's uh but it's butter fat, right? From cream. Uh and the recipes that we have are written around the properties of butter. So butter is actually less than ideal for certain things.
+
+[20:07] For instance, if you're gonna do uh if you're gonna do uh puff paste and you keep you have to keep the dough temperatures relatively proper, otherwise the butter gets too hard relative to the dough, right? Because butter isn't necessarily the best uh actual physical form for everything you're gonna do. So when when you make a margarine, you get to choose a lot of the exact properties that make it important for so there's there's table margarines, right? And those are meant to spread uh mostly like butter. And with the the main characteristic that you're looking at, other than like the nowadays they're much better at it, like margarine used to taste really just Christ awful because they couldn't deodorize it properly, and they're just tasted of awfulness.
+
+[20:45] Because the way you make the margarine is you press like any old crud, I mean unless it's specified, but you press any old crud uh and you extract oil from um you extract oil from things like seeds and soybeans, whatever, usually with some crazy solvent, uh, you know, some sort of like light petroleum fraction, which you then get rid of. You're then left with uh oil plus gum and sludge and oil breakdown products, which are uh like one of the things they can do uh with um so if there's too many free fatty acids in there they add uh lye to it and that and that turns it into soap and then they wash the soap away so there's and by the way none of this I'm against I'm not saying I'm against that I'm definitely pro you know that kind of a technique so then they uh they wash away all the impurities and then they de usually deodorize it and when they're gonna make margarine they sometimes do the deodorant deodorant step at the end. So then you're left with these raw inputs that have various different fatty acid profiles and then they hydrogenate them to different levels and different amounts and different ways to obtain um different uh properties of fat. And the most important property of fat other than the taste of it is and and how it crystallizes, how a particular fat crystallizes because that really uh affects its properties quite severely but the the you know the other really important thing is called the uh SFI which is the uh what does it actually stand for? Jeez solid fractions index I think or solids anyway.
+
+[22:09] So what it is is it's it's a a chart and you can see it and it's how much of a given fat is liquid at any given temperature because because the fats are not one unitary uh type of uh thing they don't have a definite melting point right that's why butter gets softer as it gets warmer it doesn't just instantly melt it gets soft it goes from hard to soft to uh melted because there's a range of different uh uh you know compounds in there that have different melting points and so the there's the where that curve the melting curve is and then there's the slope of that curve determines uh over what temperatures fat is is plastic, is is workable. So the good news about margarines uh is that they can choose that exact profile for baking. And the profile they choose for baking is different depending on the application that you're going to use. So they make ones called baker's margarine that are specifically designed to not be too hard so they don't rip through uh layers of your of your product, but also not to melt at all until you are uh baking with them. So uh, you know, and and there's different ones depending on exactly how the dough is supposed to work.
+
+[23:26] So, you know, in the in the very industrial scale, they'll have a different one for a puff pastry than they will for a Danish or for croissant because they work slightly differently. Uh so a lot depends on you the the idea being not to tear the dough when you're when you're rolling it out uh and and what you're looking for. But the most important thing with those margarines is that they not melt out into the dough and cause adhesion of the layers to themselves before they're baked out. Like that's the key thing. So there's that in conjunction with the not ripping.
+
+[23:52] Um water content, I wasn't able to find the app mean so oh, so I looked this morning, trying to find anyone that sold uh these varieties of uh margarines to the public. Like I looked on Amazon for Baker's margarine, and I couldn't find it. I could I Chet Baker, the musician, had a song called Margarine. I was able to find that. You can download that for 99 cents.
+
+[24:16] But I wasn't able to find less than 50 pounds of baker's margarine and no one that kind of sold uh to you know, just to you know normally to us. So if anyone out there knows a source of baker's margarine, um I I'd appreciate it. And so uh if you want me, and they're technically highly superior products. They just, you know, they also add a lot of other stuff like you know like oils and whatnot. Uh I mean, sorry, like uh butter, fake butter flavor and whatnot.
+
+[24:41] Uh now, as for your question, I wasn't able to find the optimum water content uh for uh the margarine. But uh and and there there's a there's a question as to what the optimum water content is in a dough like this, because after all, it's the water vaporizing uh, you know, and and in the thing as it melts that is causing the expansion to break the different flaky sections of the dough apart. Uh in addition to you know, in Croissant, obviously it's also leavened. So uh yes, and I know I've known for years that people want and they love the the low water uh European butters, for instance, like in the supermarket, you can buy plough or this kind of thing. But I never have actually done the test of how important the water content is.
+
+[25:27] I'm loath to suggest adding although you know what? Crisco makes some flaky freaking stuff. Although when I'm making pie crust with uh Crisco, it's a different kind of flaky and there is a lot of fat melting in because I'm not a believer in hyper cold uh everything when you're making pie crust. I follow the kind of Jeffree Steingarden through Marion Cunningham uh pie crust recipe of hand rubbing and not worrying about the temperature too much. And no one complains about my pie crust, but you do get some bleed out of the fat into the into the fat uh into the flour in that.
+
+[25:57] And so and I use lard for that, which you could act, you know, which is actually more when I use lard, it's actually colder because lard's much more difficult to work with than uh shortening is. But when I use Crisco shortening, uh it you know, it it works. So you know what? It might work if you really want to lower the water content, beat some crisco into the margarine, like roll it in, like, you know, whip it and then flatten it and make it into a block. It could work.
+
+[26:18] But I mean uh most margarines, I think, are rocking in around the twenty percent water range in that area, seventeen to 20, and most butters are also in that same range. So I d you know, I doubt you're gonna have uh I doubt, I doubt, I mean, I doubt you that the water is an issue, but maybe it is. Uh what I would recommend is not obviously melting the margarine uh to try and get the water out of it because then you're breaking the emulsion, right? Right, fair. Mm-hmm.
+
+[26:45] Okay. Uh what do you think? Is that a valid answer? Yes. Did I give anything of use?
+
+[26:49] I sometimes I can't tell whether I've said any freaking thing useful at all. I just can't tell. Uh okay. Uh Michael from Oakland writes in again, and now like making and now I feel bad. He's like, hey guys, welcome back from uh Columbia.
+
+[27:02] Following up on the Lucama question from a few weeks ago. Again, I make a cocktail with Lucama, was looking for an easier to locate substitute, something I could find in a local market, specialty market, or Latin market. You asked me to tell you whether I was concerned with taste or feel or something else. It's the taste I care about. Thanks for looking into this.
+
+[27:16] And so I don't have a decent. I don't have a does anyone out there, please help us out. Help us out. Get us a good source of Leucoma andor Lucama substitute. Because the closest thing I have is canistel.
+
+[27:30] Because I never actually worked with Leucima directly. I work with canistel. Delicious, right? That's good product. Yeah.
+
+[27:37] Uh so I've never uh had to source it. So someone help me out. Uh help us out. Help us out with that. Let's go to our second commercial break cooking issues.
+
+[28:00] This one's called the paper jam. Erotic. But erotic. But erotic. But erotic but erotic but erotic but erotic erotic erotic got Stitcher?
+
+[29:18] Heritage Radio Network is on it, so get it. Stitcher is an award-winning provider of news and talk radio for your mobile phone. Stitcher Smart Radio, the smarter way to listen to radio. Are we back? We're back with cooking issues.
+
+[29:32] Um Joe, do you remember did we answer the question about raw milk safety last week? Or two weeks ago? Oh man, check that out. I'm gonna I'm gonna answer another question in the meantime. Uh greetings, Nastasha Jave, that's me.
+
+[29:46] Uh, Jack and Joe. Uh, from Kevin Scott in San Jose. By the way, San Jose visited San Jose where our other the sister school is for the ICC. And you it is almost impossible to find anything to freaking eat in San Jose after midnight. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[30:03] You ever mean do you ever go hang out in San Jose? No, you're a you're a Southern California. But my college was near there. It's in Stanford. How close is that to San Jose?
+
+[30:11] Pretty close. Closer than San Francisco. Really? Yeah. But no, I never ate there.
+
+[30:15] Yeah. Anyway, apparently, like somewhere there's like the late night taco stands that are supposed to be good, but no no one could point us out. They're like, man, yeah. So, you know, I was starving one night in San Jose. So, Kevin, if you can hook us up with the next time I'm in San Jose where I should get good food after midnight, I would appreciate it.
+
+[30:34] Because the sit there's like eight billion people in San Jose, right? It's like a giant freaking city. It's huge. Huge. Huge.
+
+[30:40] Okay. So there's gotta be good late night eats since it's not possible for there not to be. Anyway, uh Kevin writes, I'm thinking about buying a new three-liter uh tabletop centrifuge for random mad science food hackery. What should I be looking for? Refrigerated or not?
+
+[30:55] Any manufacturers to avoid? Swinging bucket or fixed rotor. I'd like to be able to try out things like making nut and vegetable butters, tomato water, and clarifying stocks and juices. Our tabletop model is going to have enough oomph to handle this range of things. And while I'm asking questions, have you ever experimented with meat stock clarification in a centrifuge?
+
+[31:12] I can imagine being able to get a beautifully clear stock, but is there flavor loss? I don't know if you uh I don't uh if you don't know, I can do that experiment myself once I've acquired my centrifuge. Okay. What should you be looking for? Refrigeration is nice.
+
+[31:25] Um I I mean I love having refrigerator on my centrifuge, but that said, and there are some products that it's very it's very helpful to have, but it it adds a l it obviously that you need more power and it's a lot more space and the unit is a lot heavier. Uh so if you know if you don't need the refrigeration, if you don't want it, um you can get a much more compact system without refrigeration. So and there are ways to get around the refrigeration. For instance, uh putting your buckets in the freezer before you load them so that they're cold, um the x XY XYZ. The your product does heat up quite a bit uh in a centrifuge as it's spinning, and it's because of the incredible friction um that's just generated by the by the you know this thing spinning around in the air.
+
+[32:16] It gets quite warm. So we're talking the product that goes in pretty close to room temperature can come out at body temperature, really at the end of like a 15 minute spin or something like that. So if you have a product that you um where the temperature is critical, for instance, butter or spinning cream uh in into this kind of butter mass, which is something that Wiley does at the WD-50 or has done, um, then uh refrigeration is probably a good idea. Another thing is because of the immense friction, uh centrifuge can chill very, very rapidly. So one of the advantages that I think of having a refrigerated unit is um you know, we'll do juices when we're doing juices.
+
+[32:54] I usually blend uh you know whatever fruit it is in a vita prep along with the enzyme until it's slightly above water water uh the body temperature. That means the enzyme works almost instantaneously and we can spin right away. I don't have to wait for the enzyme to break down stuff at lower refrige temperatures. Now, if you have a refrigerated centrifuge, um it chills that product as it's spinning extremely rapidly down to refrigerator temperatures just because there's such good uh heat transfer because of the immense amount of uh of uh airflow that you're getting across the uh buckets when you're when you're spinning. So refrigeration, if you can afford it in terms of space and in terms of money, then um I would get it.
+
+[33:37] I mean, that's that's that. Um whether or not any manufacturers to avoid, I really only have experience uh with uh Sorval, larger Sorval units, and with uh what was that Japanese one? Do you remember the name of that? That thing was awesome. No, I don't know.
+
+[33:53] That thing was amazing. I love that thing. I know that thing was awesome. Uh or uh and the the one in Japan, which I can't even remember, was a Japanese manufacturer, and I don't think it's shipped here to the US. But the awesome thing about that, other than the fact that it was awesome, it was very compact, right?
+
+[34:08] It had a plexi top, and there's some American there's some manufacturers here that are uh I forget who like CentriVap, I kind of forget who makes those, but uh there's a couple manufacturers with plexi tops, and they're kind of fun because you can get a uh uh a strobe tack and shoot on the thing and then you know see the product as it's clarifying. It's not really necessary, but it is fun. But the awesome thing about that Japanese one was that the it the buckets, the aluminum buckets had stainless steel thin inserts that went into it that you could just use over and over, and they're just really nice unit. And really quiet, smooth. Anyway, so I'm most of my experience has been with Juans.
+
+[34:44] Uh and the Juan is nice, is a nice unit, but it's they're older because the company's out of business. It was bought by Thermo, which makes still makes a lot of centrifuges, and then uh and then the company was retired, the brand name was retired. Uh Wiley uses a headache. Uh he seems to enjoy that. And uh I think Tony uh Corneliaro in uh England also uses a head itch and he likes it.
+
+[35:07] Uh I think Hedich is out of Germany. Uh but you know, all these guys, uh here's what I would I would say. Uh I wouldn't avoid a manufacturer uh in a in a new centrifuge. I would avoid certain types. So um I don't think you need uh as I look here here's the other thing.
+
+[35:25] So the question is fixed rotor versus uh swinging bucket. Fixed rotor is going to be better for uh things like pea butter uh and and whatnot just because of the way layers are formed in a fixed uh angle rotor. Uh however, uh you know, most of the fixed angle rotors, you first of all you can put a fixed angle rotor into a three-liter bench top thing, but you're not gonna get three liters out of it. You're gonna get a much smaller yield. And to buy a unit that can do three liters that's fixed rotor is gonna be a much, much larger unit, and you're talking a lot more money.
+
+[36:01] For bang for buck and most uh useful all around, uh go with the swinging bucket rotors because that's the clarification machine. It works fine on uh nut butters. Uh we've d how you know how many how many you know things of nut butter have we done in uh in a like countless? Countless. Too many.
+
+[36:20] Too many. Uh nut milks, uh things of that nature. Uh I've never actually done the pea butter recipe, but I think that that uh when Maxime Billet came to the school, he did it in our centrifuge and it seemed to work fine. Um but the fixed angle rotors are good for certain they're good they're good for certain things. Uh and I do do some fixed angle work.
+
+[36:38] Again, like m all of my recipes that I work with are built around that centrifuge and around its capabilities. So I spend most of my time thinking of recipes uh that uh that fit within those parameters. So there's many things I'm sure that you can do that you know you can't. Now on stock, um I've never clarified uh stock in uh in regular stock in a centrifuge, and I'm assuming that to do it you're gonna require a lot of G's unless you do things like break down the gelatin in it or add other fining agents to it. And then I'm assuming you'll be able to do it.
+
+[37:13] But your question is is that you're not sure if there's gonna be flavor loss. There is always flavor loss in a clarification step. Let me be clear on this. There is always, always a flavor loss in a clarification step. The centrifuge by far is the least uh impactive uh technique to clarify that I've ever used.
+
+[37:34] So um, you know, agar clarification strips out certain things, and uh centrifuge strips out certain things, but things like agar and gel and clarification strip out a lot more, egg whites strip out a lot more. Uh and how you clarify also uh determines how much is is uh stripped out. So I mean, even within the something like the centrifuge is is what I mean to say. So for I'll give you the for instance. Uh we do gin and juice is one of the recipes we do at the bar, and uh we clarify I used to clarify grapefruit juice using freeze thaw with agar.
+
+[38:06] So you you know you you use two grams per liter of grapefruit juice, you set a light agar gel, you freeze it for you know tart overnight, and then you let it thaw into big pants. And so, you know, we used to do you know uh leaders and liters and liters. Like remember that time we did like for for the MOMA? We did a party for like 1500 or more people at the MoMA, and we it was just like gallons and gallons. We filled all we took every hotel pan in the school and filled it with frozen grapefruit juice.
+
+[38:32] And max ans, remember that? Yeah, we speak some right. Yeah, and your yield is lower, but the grapefruit juice you get from that technique, uh, freeze thaw is extremely clean and sweet because uh a lot of the the the bitterness of the grapefruit is stripped out, which is I guess Noring. And it's stripped out uh in the agar clarification process. So when you use when you make gin and juice using agar clarification, freeze thaw or quick, you do not need to add any simple syrup at all to the recipe.
+
+[39:03] Okay. When you do uh centrifugal clarification on grapefruit juice, where we use an enzyme to break down the pectin, and then uh some very light fining agents, kiesel salt, and chitosan, which are designed for wine clarification, uh, more of that inherent bitterness remains. Some of it's still stripped, it doesn't taste like fresh grapefruit, you know, like like you know, whole grapefruit juice, but it uh much more remains such that I do have to add a small amount of simple syrup to that recipe to get it to work. Uh and so, yes, there is a stripping of flavor. Sometimes that stripping of flavor is good.
+
+[39:35] For instance, I wouldn't want the full bitterness of grapefruit juice in my gin and juice because I think it would be overpowering with the gin and with the carbonation because we carbonate it all. So uh there's always uh flavors that are removed. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing. Um with the stock, you know, uh whenever I clarify stock, I usually I'm doing a bunch, and so I do regular freeze thaw clarification on stock, just water it down so there's not too much gelatin in there. But you like I say, you could use a fining agent in in uh in conjunction with uh an enzyme called Coralase, which breaks down uh Coralase breaks down uh gelatin.
+
+[40:10] The problem with uh you and we've done tests of breaking down the gelatin using just uh meat, meat, you know, protease stuffs, basically, you know, papayene and other things that you can get as meat tenderizers. Uh the problem being that when proteins are broken down into very small fragments, uh, some of those fragments can turn bitter and unpleasant, the small polypeptides. And coralase is an enzyme that's designed specifically to break down gelatin into flavorless uh polypeptides. So it breaks them down in such a way that they don't cause bitter and off-flavors. And that stuff is freaking amazing.
+
+[40:43] Unfortunately, like you take jellied stock, hardcore jellied stock, you add a couple of drops of coralase, and the thing melts out. Just melts, it just melts, even if it's cold, boop, gone. And then you can reduce stock. We've done ridiculous things like take a gallon of stock and taking it down to you know, like just like uh almost until it's solid and it doesn't set when it cools off. So we use that for like these incredibly intense kind of beef uh stock uh things.
+
+[41:09] It's amazing. But anyway, I would get a hold of Coral Ace, except for I have not been able to. So if Chris uh you know if Chris at Monitors Pantry can get his hands on some coralase enzyme, I would buy the hell out of that. We met him. Yeah, we did.
+
+[41:21] We met him uh what was it again? Sunday, Saturday. Oh, yeah, we did the Heritage Radio. Have we talked about that yet? Sort of.
+
+[41:26] Sort of here, you think about what to say about that because I think I got one more question I got to hit before we before we get kicked out of here. Uh, and here it is. Confused in Houston. Co. Confused in Houston Miles writes in uh dear uh Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe.
+
+[41:40] I've been researching hydrocolloids. You know? I've been researching hydrocolloids and in particular methylcellulose. Since there are a bunch of different kinds of this stuff, how can one tell which is right for a particular purpose? For example, if I wanted to make a hot melting jelly, which type of methyl cellulose would I use?
+
+[42:01] And what about for stabilizing a foam? Thanks in advance. Okay. This is a great this is a great thing, and uh uh uh a great question. And a lot a lot of this goes back to uh some original problems I had with uh recipes uh printed online uh and also with uh Faron's Texturas line.
+
+[42:21] Now the products in Texturas they're all they're all good products, they're all high quality products, you know. Uh but the problem is is that they don't necessarily tell you what's in them. So for instance, in Ferron's methyl, uh in Ferran's uh gel an it's just called gel an. It it's not just gel an, it's a mixture of two different kinds of gel an, high acyl gel N and low acyl gel an. That's I guess some sort of compromise that you can use to make fluid gels, but also uh has a somewhat gelatin characteristic when it's used as a gel in its own right.
+
+[42:50] Uh and I'm pretty sure uh it's been a billion years since I've used his gel an, but I think it's basically uh 25% of the uh high acyl gel an, which is the stretchy weird one, and 75% of the low acyl, which is the brittle clear, you know, one that's good for fluid gels. So on methyl cell, uh, I used to know it one time and I've forgotten what is the what they're actually using in that. Now uh there are many different producers of methylcellulose. Methylcellulose is uh one of the few unnatural hydrocolloids that we use, and by that I mean the methylcellulose does not occur in nature, it's a it's a derived product from uh cellulose, uh, you know, from like you know, manufacture of cotton and things like this. And um, so they're not naturally occurring, but they're not that doesn't make them evil, it just means they don't occur in nature.
+
+[43:39] Um but there are a zillion different kinds. There's straight methyl cellulose, there's hydroxyprobe methylcellulose, there's there's a there's a bunch of different ones. Uh the ones that, and there are several manufacturers of it, the ones that I use and have used are manufactured by DAO. And DAO, DAO's brand name is Methocell, right? Yeah, M-E-T-H-O, I can't spell that out.
+
+[44:02] S-E-S-C-E-L, Methocell. And they those are the ones that most chefs write their recipes around. Dow Methocell. The good thing about Dow is that Dow has online, or at least used to, and if they don't, I can email or put on my thing, uh, a bunch of uh uh technical documents on exactly what they all do. Uh so any recipe that you get, you should try to convert it into the type of methyl cell that you want.
+
+[44:29] The interesting property that you allude to with uh methell that it has is that it's one of the very few things that as it's heated becomes a gel. Gels as it's heated and melts as it's cooled. This has led to a lot of people, including Wiley and Ideas in Food, and you know, Nicholas Curti would have if he hadn't died before he figured out what methell was, try and make things like hot ice cream, things that uh things that uh are solid when they're hot, and then you put it in your mouth and it melts. Kind of an inverse thing of ice cream. The problem is I think it's a fundamentally flawed idea making hot ice cream because like I can go into it later.
+
+[45:01] I don't have time to go into why I think hot ice cream is a fundamentally flawed idea. But uh, so it's very interesting product because of this way that it sets as it's heated, and it's because it becomes less soluble as it's heated, drops partially out of solution and forms a gel. Uh now, there's wide variety of uh ones in the methyl cell line, and not all of them form good gels, but they're arranged in the order of how they gel. So the mo the hardest gelling one, but it actually you know squeezes out a lot of water, is uh the S G series. And those are stands for super gelling, and those hard gelling ones also gel at the lowest temperature.
+
+[45:36] The next series up, and it's very, very, you know, you know, not that hot, like a like 120 Fahrenheit or something like that, starts gelling. I forget the actual numbers. Uh the next is the A series. So those are the two ones that are mainly used for gels in things like noodles that set when you squeeze them into broths and all those things. That's what those things, those things excel at that kind of um application.
+
+[45:57] And they're used for that. The uh other series, uh I I don't really use the K series that much, but it's a higher thing. The series other series that I use, the E series was discontinued. The E series is good at film forming, and so people are making crackers and biscuits out of them. Although I don't particularly like Methell E series.
+
+[46:13] Uh, but the one that uh I use the most is the F series, and that's the one that you use for meringues and for whipping. So that's the one that's a good whipping agent. Okay. So the SG and the A series are the ones that you use for gelling, and the F series is the one that you use for uh like those meringues that you dehydrate and and they stay nicely. The other thing to worry about on methacel, Dow bran methell, is the uh number that is after it.
+
+[46:38] So there's F50, for instance, is the one that you want to use for uh whipping things. The F50 is, and all of the numbers after a methyl cell are uh a measure of the viscosity of the product as it's made. So 50 is it's in almost in arbitrary units, but it's a certain concentration of methyl cell, has 50 times the viscosity of water at a certain concentration, blah blah blah. Okay. So there's F50, uh, but there's for instance, you can get one like SG 16M, right?
+
+[47:07] And here's what's freaking confusing, and I'll leave you guys with this because they're gonna kick us off the sh off the air in a second. But here's what's confusing they use a sun combination of Arabic and Roman freaking numerals, right? So SG 16M, right, is actually uh an SG super gel with a viscosity of sixteen thousand because the M stands for thousand in uh in Roman numerals. They also have some C ones uh that are like seven hundred, and so it's very confusing unless you just remember you gotta choose the series you want, and then after you choose the series you want, you gotta choose uh the viscosity that you want it to be. And the viscosity is gonna determine also how hard the gel is gonna be at the end, because it's probably a longer uh they're probably longer you know units, so they're probably a harder gel, and also the viscosity of the stuff as you're as you're working.
+
+[47:53] I hope that helps! Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[48:20] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Get it straight.
+
+[48:36] Vicious Vicious Fat. Oh, you dare
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairway market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. I'll see you in my dreams.
+
+[0:39] Jack, is that our new is that us now? No, that's not. That's plexiponic. But you know, we uh at Heritage Radio here, we're going all original, all licensed music. So the cooking issues theme is no longer so okay, so like no longer as of now.
+
+[0:55] No longer as of now. So basically okay, so for those of you that don't know how this works, right? Uh as with all other things in life, theoretically, if you use uh on the air in some sort of a program a song, you are supposed to pay for it. Right? You're supposed to pay what is it, BMI or Ass Cap, whatever it is, right?
+
+[1:12] Right, Jack? And we decided we didn't want to do that because we're nonprofit. We got we got no cash. Yeah. All right.
+
+[1:21] So now that I know that we're on the air. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live. A little bit late today. From the back of Roberta's uh even later than normal, actually.
+
+[1:30] Yeah. From the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn here in the studio with Nastog Lopez and Jack Inslee, our intrepid engineer. And uh what what is your title over there at the radio? Grand Vizier. Uh that's a cool title.
+
+[1:43] Executive producer. Executive producer. Do you know what by the way? Everyone wants to know what Nastash's title is with the organization, and by the way, no one even knows what the organization means. No one knows what company we're talking about.
+
+[1:55] Uh or what what the hell we're talking about. Cooking issues not really a business, right, Saz? Right. Right. So it's hard to have a title there, but you have one.
+
+[1:59] She has the same title across anything she works for. And basically, uh, you can treat her however you want so long as her title is air parent. Yeah, well, uh, you know, I don't really know what like uh I said when she said this is what she wanted her title to be, and that was you know her only condition for working, really, strangely enough. I was like, uh I said, well, uh like air apparent to what? She's like, nah, that doesn't matter.
+
+[2:28] Doesn't matter. Right, Stuzz? Yeah, true, true story. Okay, calling your questions live to 718497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[2:38] So anyway, just got back from London. Merry old, merry old England action, right? Uh, where uh I was with Harold McGee. We were at uh we were at the kind of the bar this year's, you know, I guess last year or the year, two years ago, whatever it was, the bar wedding of the of the century was uh was Audrey Saunders of of Pegu and Robert Hess of you know he writes about uh you know bars and you know bar kind of master writer thinker. Uh Cocktail Boy, I think is his uh blog, right?
+
+[3:07] That's the name of his blog. I don't know. Anyways, so that was the the wedding of the uh the bar wedding of the century. This year's well, the the the American Bar Wedding of the Century, and this one is uh you know, Rhea, formerly of Pernault Ricard and good friend, and uh Tony Connollyaro of 69 Colebrook Row and Zetter Townhouse in uh in the London there. Some of my favorite bars in the in the world.
+
+[3:25] So we went over, I should say we. I went over, and Harold McGee also went over, and Nastasha was like, no crap on that. And uh invited. Okay, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know.
+
+[3:34] What do I know? Anyway, uh went over to London for the wedding, uh, but the wedding wasn't in London, it was in the Cotswolds, which was beautiful. But uh, in order to write off the entire trip, uh Harold McGee, yeah, you know what he could do. Harold McGee and I went to the Brogdale collection again in Kent Favisham, which is, uh, for those of you that don't know, where uh the United Kingdom stores all of its fruit. Now, did I mention this on the last show that I was gonna go there?
+
+[3:59] Yeah. Did I talk about it in general? Uh just a quick quick refresher. Quick refresher. So when you're storing fruit, you store it in the form of a tree, right?
+
+[4:06] And so you go there and they actually have all the trees. Now, if you go to the United States' fruit repositories, which run by the good old uh it's a kind of a governmental plus university effort, right? So our apples are run uh in you know in conjunction between Cornell University and United States government, and uh pears and small fruits are in Corvallis, where I'm we're gonna go to are you going to that, Stas or no? No, Tristan is. Oh, to Portland Cocktail Week.
+
+[4:28] I hope to go to Corvalis, which is where the other ones are stored. So here's what I've learned about uh American fruit collections. They really don't care. They don't care. Like no one goes there to visit it, right?
+
+[4:38] And you can go in there and go absolutely nutty ape crap uh on the trees and eat as much fruit as you want with almost no supervision. This is what I found. Um whereas in the Brogdale, which is in Kent, it's not the case. They they they don't let you just go go crazy. Now, Nastash and I, was it two years ago?
+
+[4:58] We went and we went like we went nutty box in the in the orchards and we were able to eat whatever we want, and no one gave us any sort of guff because there was literally nobody there. This year it was pretty hardcore, and we had to sneak around and we got kicked out of the orchards like three times. Oh my god. Yeah. Here's another thing, sad to say for all of you English folk out there.
+
+[5:17] Uh, this is like, and I asked some fruit growers there. This is the worst season for taste for uh uh British apples and and whatnot in in many, many, many years because they had not enough sunlight and more than usual uh less than average sun, more than more than usual rain. And the apples just stars were not they just weren't bueno. I tasted a bunch this listen, I love the Brogdales, no offense to the Brogdale, but the apples just were no love, right? And I had apples, I tasted apples that I knew exactly what they tasted like, American apples, plus English apples that I knew what they tasted like.
+
+[5:51] So coxes, I tasted a cocks, empires, all these other things. None of them good. I also learned something else. The English prefer their fruit a little more sour than we do. Sour.
+
+[6:01] There was a speaking of sour, there was like I there's no way she she doesn't know anything, so she's not listening, but there's this woman on the tour with us, right? Because I had to take this tour to get out there, so we had to sit around. All these people, they care about stuff that Harold and I really just don't care about. Like the value of the trees as trees. Harold and I look look, this is an apple tree.
+
+[6:20] This is a pear tree. Its value lies in the fruit, in the fruit, the fruit. And then they're all like, the whole cultural blah blah blah blah blah blah. Like Nastasha hates this kind of talk. Some people care about that.
+
+[6:32] But why would you care about that? It's the fruit. In other words, if an apple tree looked like a cup of water and yet it made delicious apples, wouldn't you be like, apples? No. She's talking about the value of the tree that produces the fruit that's so delicious, right?
+
+[6:47] No, she didn't care about the deliciousness. First of all, the lady had no taste. I sir I I picked an apple off of a tree that was so horribly underripe it tasted like you were sucking on raw starch. And uh, because apples before they're ripe, they taste very starchy. Uh, and they're usually very acidic and they have very little roundness.
+
+[7:04] So this was ba this tasted of starch and malic acid and nothing else. And it was overly hard and you know, like kind of teeth breaking as you chew into it. She loved it. She's like, this would be fantastic with the fine cheese. And I was like, I was like, this lady has to be an anomaly.
+
+[7:18] And then I asked around, they're like, no, man. No, man. Crazy depressing. Anyway, call her. You're on the air.
+
+[7:25] Hey, Dave, this is Johnny from Memphis again. How you doing? Doing all right. How you doing? Doing good.
+
+[7:31] Thanks for the uh info on the suckling pig a few weeks ago. It turned out good. It did, it turned out well? Turned out good. I'm happy.
+
+[7:40] I got another question for you. All right. I know that you don't need to uh see salt uh like a pork butt or brine a pork butt before you souveed it. Right. And if I was gonna uh like open it up like a book and put uh herbs like porchata style and then roll it up and sous vate it, I wouldn't need to brine it, right?
+
+[8:05] Okay, so there's there's two ways to think about it. You don't need to so brining does two things, three things really. It it uh it alters the protein so that they're less apt to get overcooked, right? And that's the reason why a lot of people do it when they're doing traditional cooking, right? It also um, and that you don't need to do for sous vide, it's not necessary.
+
+[8:28] Two, they do it to flavor the meat, right? And so for the flavor, you know, that's still necessary if that's the flavor you want. But three, it also tends to firm up the meat a little bit and make it taste less like fresh meat, and that's okay in like a chicken, not okay in a piece of steak, and then it's up to you in a piece of pork whether that's okay or not. You know what I mean? Yeah, what quality of pork.
+
+[8:59] If I have been trouble uh making like a roulage style um that uh put some transglutaminase on it. Yep. And I know it likes gelatin. And if I make the roulade, souve it, and then want to crisp the outside. Um maybe I should use water and like uh pesto spread instead of oil.
+
+[9:27] Is that making it come apart the oil you think? Uh okay, so I mean, any time that there is uh oil in between I mean here here's the thing. Some oil, I wouldn't go water-based, it's just gonna leak everywhere. I think the oil's not gonna be too much of a problem. As long as there is some meat to meat contact, it's not gonna be a problem.
+
+[9:46] You what which transglutaminates are you using? Uh either one, I'm adding gelatin if I'm using the RM, uh the couple of sheets. Um I use a GS, whichever. Yeah, you shouldn't need to. I mean, the RM has the casein as a binder.
+
+[10:05] You shouldn't need to to um to add it. Um if you were if you if it wasn't sticking, I guess you could add some, or the, you know, uh, I mean, I would I would keep it if you if you want to brine it beforehand, I would you could just let it brine itself basic, salt it, you know what I mean? Then add the transglutaminase as a powder. I wouldn't wouldn't go crazy on it. And uh then the question, was it gonna is it gonna what's gonna happen if you put pusto on it?
+
+[10:30] You need meat to meat contact. Do you know what I mean? You need the meat to meet contact. You could make a j you could make a gelatin, uh you could make a gelatin water herb slurry, and that sucker would glue up. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[10:47] Uh put up dissolve the transglutaminase into that and put it in the cryo bag, get the air out. Uh I would make the slurry with the gelatin. Uh let it, you know, cool down till it's not set, but you know, like maybe starting to get thick. Whisk the transglutaminase into it, and then spread it on the thing and roll quick. Okay.
+
+[11:11] That's what I would do. All right. I'll pretty sure it's just all right. Let us know uh let us know how it goes. I will.
+
+[11:19] All right. All right, thanks a lot. Bye. So, Stas, I didn't come across as too harsh on the on the on the Brits. It was just a bad year for them, right?
+
+[11:26] No, you were wonderful too. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay. I like how the Stas just lies, so I get off her back. You were wonderful.
+
+[11:34] You want to hear it. No, I don't want to hear it. I want to know exactly what happened. Anyways. Uh okay, got a question in from Philip Lamont.
+
+[11:43] Hello, Nastasha and Dave. Uh, just saw your lecture at Harvard and loved it. Nice, thank you. Which but they only published the one that we did together, right? I think the one I did for the students was actually stronger because it was just about it was focused more on the students, so it was about the science and and what was going on, you know.
+
+[12:00] Um Phillips question. I have a small question about chlorophyll. I've been making an herb mayonnaise lately, and I can't get it to stay green longer than one night. Uh I make an herb puree by blanching the herbs in salted water and icing uh to keep them cold. I blend those herbs in an ice blender with just enough cold oil.
+
+[12:19] After blending, I add lemon juice or ascorbic acid. Uh then I add this to mayo via a RoboCoupe, uh, which the uh subsequent mayo is made in. It is nice green, but not for long. M I just screwed? Hmm.
+
+[12:31] It's an interesting question. I've never uh I've never I haven't done enough tests with it to know 100%, but uh just kind of off the top of my head, and I went back and looked at some of the books that I uh that I uh uh you know that I love uh to see what their recommendations were. Now, you specifically want an herb mayonnaise, i.e. you want the flavor of the herb in it and not just an a green uh mayonnaise, right? So what's most likely happening is uh, you know, as most people know, there is a um there are uh there's an enzyme in in in herbs and many plants called uh I forget what they're called, like polyphenol oxidases, I think is what they're called.
+
+[13:10] Uh and they uh when you break herbs or leaves or anything like that, apples, uh you release those enzymes that are otherwise locked up such that they can interact with uh the rest of the uh the juices from the cell, right? Some of those uh things are are phenols that get um altered by the enzyme and then can kind of stick together and form colored particles, right? Uh and so that that's what's happening. Now, you you're there's a couple of things that inhibit those enzymes. One are antioxidants, so ascorbic acid, so that's that's good.
+
+[13:46] And two is heat. So uh if you heat an herb, blanch it as you're doing in salted and blanching in salted water, by the way, is a good idea because it means you're gonna leak less of the color uh and stuff out out of the herb. So blanching in salted water, very good. Uh uh putting it into uh cold water to stop uh heating, which was actually break down the chlorophyll, which is a separate problem of browning. That's what happens when you overcook the vegetables, right?
+
+[14:12] And then having ascorbic acid. These are all the things that um that I I would do. Uh so but let's take a look uh specifically at what you say here. You you blanch the stuff in salted water and then ice it, and then blend those uh in an ice blender with uh cold oil. I don't think you really need to worry about the coldness of the oil, and you don't need to worry about icing the blender.
+
+[14:33] Okay. Uh you're blending it with the oil there, I guess, to get the water oil stuff right so that when you add it to the mayonnaise, it's not going to break the emulsion. And that seems fine, I guess. Um lemon juice or ascorbic acid that you that you add afterwards, also fine. Um then add to the mayo via a RoboCoup.
+
+[14:53] Here's what I would say. I wouldn't bother with the uh with the cold necessarily making it cold or icing the blender. Make sure you squeeze out the herbs after you blanch them to get rid of uh any any of the stuff that's in them. I would take out stems, um I would take out the stems, but I would also maybe use a different a different method. So you should go read, you should find, buy, go to bookfinder.com and get the out-of-print book uh from Harold McGee, The Curious Cook, which I keep telling him he has to bring back into uh circulation.
+
+[15:23] And he goes through an entire section in that book about um keeping things green and all the various different interesting ways he's trying to keep pesto and things, which is a similar problem, green. Uh so I I definitely recommend um I definitely recommend reading that. But uh here's how I would probably do it. Uh if I was gonna use your technique, I would blanch in uh water, uh, then I would in this cold, you know, in the in the in the salted water, very salted water, uh pull it out, sh shock it, squeeze it to get all of the stuff out, then directly blend that without uh added oil with ascorbic acid right away. Boom.
+
+[15:59] Then uh after you do that, I would add, if you wanted to, I would just start beating that into uh mayonnaise and then adding more oil as necessary to get the consistency back. I mean that that's that's what I would do. But I also I think one of your problems is is that you are uh adding the solids, and it might be the solids in there that are causing the problem. Because when I looked at one of my favorite all-time uh cookbooks, which is James Peterson's Sauces, which is a very you know, an early 90s classic, it's 1991 it came out, and it's one of my treasured books. And you know, one of the sad things about um cookbooks and cooking, you know, cook cookbook and and thinking about books is there's lots of books, especially from that era before cooking was wildly popular among uh a bunch of people that have just fallen by the wayside and aren't read enough.
+
+[16:53] So, you know, uh some of Bill Neal's old Southern cookbooks are s are some of those books that aren't read enough these days. And you know, James Peterson obviously is still famous, but I don't hear as many people talking about his sauces book, which I think is a classic uh as you know as much as they used to. Now, when you do read the book, by the way, and I recommend you go get in the book, uh, uh you do see some of the the some of the that time in it. So at that time, reduced cream sauces were extremely popular, and so there's a lot of reduced cream sauces in that book that you wouldn't necessarily see on a menu these days. But you just gotta, you know, you whenever you read a uh a really good book like that, you have to filter it through uh the lens of the time in which in which it was written.
+
+[17:35] Anyway, so I looked at what uh he had to say uh about it, and you know, he calls it uh by its French name uh sauce vert, green mayonnaise and the way he makes it is to actually make a chlorophyll juice I'll just read you uh what he says uh sauce vert green mayonnaise this mayonnaise tastes the same as basic unflavored mayonnaise because of the way he makes it uh only the color is different uh stir one half of a teaspoon three grams of chlorophyll into one cup of mayonnaise uh and to extract the chlorophyll from spinach leaves see uh chapter 15 uh butter sauces and chlorophyll butter and whatnot don't worry I have that for you so I can read you that as well uh if I can get my iPad to stop uh rotating on me uh which I did test I test that I test it's why I want it to stay where I want it okay um okay um okay uh then uh so that's what that's what he says you add the chlorophyll and I'll talk about that in a second he says mayonnaise can also be colored directly with the juice from spinach watercress or parsley now here's the technique that's going to be important to you because I think this is how you should do it. Uh blanch the greens in a large pot of rapidly boiling salted water. Quickly rinse the greens in cold water pat dry and finally grind in a blender or food processor. Place the puree greens in the middle of the kitchen towel and here's where he's doing something different from you and tightly wring the juice out into a bowl. This juice can then be used for coloring the mayonnaise.
+
+[18:56] The puree can be combined directly with the mayonnaise and the sauce strained. So and this think about this this is the way that we make parsley oil right even if you weren't to follow his directions in blanching you can you can blanch in quotes um you can blanch herbs directly in oil right so you could take your oil you could heat the oil uh with the herbs in it enough to kill the enzymes that are in the oil without ever putting it in the water. Then blend it and then strain out the particles. And that's how we make things like parsley oil and herb oil. So I would do that instead.
+
+[19:29] I think it's the solids that you're dealing with, and you could also get rid of the water blanching step. The only issue here is you're gonna have to sprinkle a little extra ascorbic acid into the mayonnaise as it's being made, which should dissolve into the water phase and have it be fine. But I think that is the key there is that you're getting rid of the solids and using the juice from it, right? And the thing he's not saying is that you can blanch the uh uh the herbs directly in oil so long as you're careful. You don't want them to br uh to brown.
+
+[19:55] You want the temperature to stay uh below right around or below the uh the boiling point of water. And you can see the bubbles coming up from the herbs, and you know when to kind of like mellow it out to stop it from getting too uh browned. Uh so for completeness sake, uh his recipe for chlorophyll butter, uh chlorophyll butter. This butter is good to have on hand for coloring uh hot sauces green. Uh plain chlorophyll can be used for cold sauces.
+
+[20:20] Uh first prepare one ounce of chlorophyll. To do this, grind one pound or 500 grams of raw spinach leaves with one half to one cup of water in a blender or food processor. Pour the green paste in the center of a clean kitchen towel and twist it to extract the green liquid. Gently heat the green liquid in a saucepan until it coagulates. Strain the liquid through a strainer, line with a wet towel.
+
+[20:38] So you gotta do that quickly before it turns brown. And then gently scrape the chlorophyll away from the inside of the towel with a spoon or a metal spatula. Chlorophyll can be uh stored in the refrigerator covered with a thin coating of oil. Right? So there you go.
+
+[20:50] And to prepare chlorophyll butter, work the chlorophyll with four times its volume of butter. So uh I don't know whether any of this is helpful, but hopefully some of it is helpful. And let us go to our first commercial break. There are music. There's a communication.
+
+[21:14] It's not HeritageRadio Network.org. Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries.
+
+[22:01] And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a feta complet for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member.
+
+[22:22] Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. Sounds like Booker. Have you ever met Steve Jenkins? No, he yelled at me once from a uh above the, you know, in the fairway, they have like a right by the cheese thing, there's like an upper counter where like they can look down and see what's happening in the cheese land.
+
+[22:58] Yeah, he yelled at me from that once. Oh, what were you doing? I don't remember. I just remember being yelled at. Oh man.
+
+[23:03] Is he pleasant to deal with here at the radio show? That's great. I love Steve. I mean, I love it, I love what he has done for the cheese world. Yeah.
+
+[23:09] I thank goodness many days for his 88 career. He he he was one of the people who uh, you know, for those of you who don't know Steve Jenkins, or for those of you that think that somehow everyone in America has always cared about cheese, well, you're wrong. Uh, you know, uh a long time ago, there were a couple of shops in New York where you could get uh you know cheeses. So, you know, you think they're you know it's Zabars for a long time. But Fairway uh I think really uh was one of the leaders in uh in the in the uh 90s and ear early, early nineties at least, in really kind of raising uh cheese consciousness among a large group of people.
+
+[23:50] Wouldn't you say so, Jack? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, so I I feel that we uh we owe Steve Jenkins as a cheese eating culture uh a lot. You know, and then you know, I mean obviously we have a lot of cheese gurus now. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[24:03] But I think I think we owe him I think we owe him a lot. We all always credit Steve too, all the people that go on uh Ansax will be show and talk about cheese. You know, he was one of the inspirations. Yeah, yeah. So gotta love him.
+
+[24:13] Thank God for idiots. Okay. Uh we have a follow-up from Rob Trapas, who by the way, I I now can just pronounce his name because he's had written in enough. I don't need the help anymore. It's tripos.
+
+[24:26] Uh we uh we had a discussion on the radio program about uh rebottling vermouth, and here's his follow-up. Dave et al. Thanks for your help and insight on my quest to rebuttal my apparatus and vermouths. He was having a problem with them oxidizing. Uh I found that fever treever Tree Tonic and ginger ale are bottled in 200 milliliter glass bottles that accept regular uh caps, i.e.
+
+[24:44] crown court caps that you can get at any homebrew shop and you could buy the bottler for very little. I mean the uh the capper for very little. Uh excepting regular caps, and then some champagne splits also take uh standard bottle caps. I thought they all did. No?
+
+[24:58] I thought they all did. Yeah, look. It's not an actual champagne slip if it uh uh uh bottle if it doesn't take the cap. So I don't know what your any non-screw top uh thing should accept it. Uh okay.
+
+[25:08] The reason why is because that's how they store it normally before they cork it when they're doing their racking stuff. Anyways, okay, okay. So after uh and it's convenient that you can pack a fifth into four small bottles. So after a few gin and tonics, horses' necks and French 75s. You know, that's what they used to call uh some of the people in my stepfather's family.
+
+[25:26] They all had dumb names for people, like mean ones, mean nicknames they use behind their back, and horse's neck was one. Uh why for Gerard's uh uh great grandma. Well, out of no idea why. I have no idea why. Why they call they I can't some of them are unrepeatable on the air.
+
+[25:41] Some of some of the in fact, the vast majority of the Adenizio family nicknames are unrepeatable on the on the air. Uh although they are hilarious. Okay. A um uh I collected enough bottles to rebottle my collection. A local wine shop and canned wine uh preserver gas, Argonne, which remember is the good one to use, that I used to purge the headspace.
+
+[26:01] I experimented our different dispensing techniques to get an effective blanket using a bottle filled with water and a match. Well uh the reason well, you'll see why. Uh one drawback to canned gas is that the pressure is high at first and then dissipates as you use it. I found that seven quick sprays towards the south side of the bottle, did the trick, and I checked my blanket by putting a lit match in the opening just below the crown. If the match went out immediately, I reasoned there was no oxygen.
+
+[26:23] I then used the same technique on the fortified fortified wines. When I noticed a different pressure flow out of the can, I checked the water uh blank. The attached poor quality cell phone shows the results. Happily I can now keep six small fresh bottles in my refrigerator along with my syrups and acid ingester without upsetting the family too much. I also attached a PDF, which is from a wine thing, you guys can look it up, uh, with some more information on inert gas.
+
+[26:47] Yep, what do you think? Uh he also uh remember I recommended pick uh picking up a copy of Fix the Pump by uh Darcy O'Neal. Remember that? Yeah, he did that and he likes it, so there you have it. Nice.
+
+[26:58] Yeah, bueno. Can I ask a really quick question? Sure. This is for me. Um if I don't refrigerate Vermouth, how long am I gonna be good for?
+
+[27:06] It's not the refrigeration that's the problem. Refrigeration slows the changes that are due to oxidation, right? So if you uh like w if you were to actually effectively remove all of the oxygen from uh where the stuff is, then its shelf life shouldn't be compromised over regular vermouth, but uh storing regular vermouth in the fridge is gonna prolong its its life after it's been opened if you don't remove the oxygen. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[27:34] Got it. Yeah. But I definitely recommend doing it, andor buying with most people, if they're not like at the very minimum, just buy small bottles of vermouth. I mean, the real problem is is that it's usually only the brands that aren't my favorite brands that come in the small bottles. So no one makes small bottles of carpano.
+
+[27:51] They only come in in you know, larger things. No one makes small bottles of dolin, no one makes small bottles of coke or all these other things that you know we like to use. And so it's a problem. If you're a fan of something like Martini and Rossi, then those do come in smaller bottles and the cost isn't so high, so you can use it in relatively short order. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:13] This is another dumb question, but a barrows are not wine, right? Uh well, I mean, they uh now you have to look up Nastasha, look up the technical definition of Amara while he's looking at it and we'll get back to it. I mean, they can be a wine base, right? They can have a wine base and then fortify with herbs and extra liquor to get the proof up. But Astasha's gonna look up this is the first time ever.
+
+[28:34] Nastash's gonna look up what? This is the first time I mean useful. Well, that's true. I mean, in general in life. Yeah.
+
+[28:41] You you probably didn't hear what she said because she wasn't uh her face wasn't in the microphone, but she was right here. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. All right. We'll get we'll get that, we'll get that technical stuff for you, Jack, in just a second.
+
+[28:50] We have a now, these questions I'm just I'm just reading, so I haven't I haven't had time to look at them beforehand. They're they're coming off of uh off of I don't know, Jack's printer somehow made them. Hello, gang. This is from Mike. Uh I have a practical question concerning chili peppers.
+
+[29:04] I frequently handle them when cooking, and by the time I'm finished with prep work, my hands often feel like they're burning. Presumably it has something to do with capsation, uh, which is the you know the heating part, the hot principle in uh hot peppers. Sometimes I'm smart enough to wear latex gloves, but this isn't always possible. Plus at home you don't like to wear latex gloves anyway, do you? Do you like to wear latex gloves?
+
+[29:21] Well, Nastasha likes to wear latex gloves when she's cooking. That's some weird stuff I don't want to get into. No. No. I'm making it up.
+
+[29:27] Uh do you know of any treatment which neutralizes this burning sensation? Uh sorry for such a uh housewife topic. Hey, don't be insulting the housewives, by the way. Uh but my hands really, really hurt right now. Much appreciated, and please uh keep up the great work, Mike.
+
+[29:41] Well, I don't know. Do you know of any if you like uh presumably you have some small nicks and cuts somewhere in your hand, right? So what would see I don't think rubbing it with oil would help because capsation is oil soluble, so it would go into in go you go into that. I mean, you could try it as kind of a a primary thing, but then your hands are gonna be slippery and you're gonna slice the heck out of your hands. I would just uh look, if you only handle as you're cutting, if you're careful to only handle the waxy outer cuticle section of the of the pepper, then you're not gonna become in contact with the with the with the seeds too much.
+
+[30:15] And probably if after you slice it, you give it a real quick, quick rinse in in uh in uh water to get the stuff off, it might help a little bit. But I don't really know. I've never been asked to have this problem fixed. Uh so listen, anyone out there, please give us your thoughts on uh if you have problems cutting uh cutting you know red hot pep hot chili peppers, and you know of a solution other than latex gloves, call us in, right? Yeah, and we'll do it next week.
+
+[30:45] All right, next one, which also has something to do with uh capsation, is uh from Rory Mearns. And Rory writes Hi Dave from the Land Down Under, aka New Zealand. Love the show. I listen to the podcast on my walk home from work. I have a quick that's a long walk.
+
+[31:00] Well, where does he live? I'm saying I don't know, but I'm saying it's a long walk. If you listen to the podcast on the it's a long, long walk. Uh I have a question regarding the coloring of uh of a capsecum-based sauce I'm working on that contains uh cap, you know, capsecum peppers, red peppers, presumably red, uh uh, although it doesn't necessarily need to be vinegar, sugar, salt, and a little ginger and garlic, no other additives. The sauce is bottled and capped while hot, and it's a stunning red color.
+
+[31:25] It retains this color well overall, but after a while there's some darkening seen near the tops of the bottles. What is causing this? I assume it is some sort of oxidation. But more importantly, what options do I have to prevent it from happening? Uh oh shoot, you know what?
+
+[31:39] When I was talking about the herbs, here's what I forgot to mention. McGee in his curious cookbook on the thing says that even if you um even if you destroy the enzymes, the polyphenol oxidases in the uh in the herbs by blanching, uh after you make uh uh pesto with them, they will still eventually go brown. And the reason is is that the oxidation of those uh phenols and then their uh eventual agglomeration into brown colored things will happen even if the enzyme is uh destroyed uh you know not nearly as much but will happen at a at a much reduced rate it all depends on the actual uh uh reactivity of those uh phenolic compounds because the phenolic compounds aren't destroyed it's the enzyme that's destroyed another interesting thing if you add a fresh enzyme like any fresh herb at all to the stuff that you've blanched uh the enzymes are there and they'll go and they'll work and they'll do their dirty brown work so that might be another thing to look at uh on the herb thing is the fact that you you know maybe there's some fresh herb getting into it afterwards or maybe you just get some browning anyway maybe you need to blanch it a little bit longer to really make sure you kill all the enzyme because enzymes aren't deactivated right away anyway uh so back to uh Rory's question I assume it's some sort of oxidation but more importantly what options do I have to prevent it from happening okay looking at your uh at your list you have uh capsecum uh peppers uh vinegar which is an acid acid should present uh prevent somewhat browning because if there are any enzymes in it that are if if it's an enzymatic reaction the vinegar the acidity is going to inhibit that. Sugar, salt, and a little ginger or garlic. Okay.
+
+[33:19] But here's the issue. You don't have in there uh so oxidation is going to take place over a long period of time, regardless of whether or not there are enzymes present, as I just said. What you might want to do is add a little bit of an antioxidant. So vitamin C, ascorbic acid is one that you might try. Sodium metabisulfate.
+
+[33:44] Another one you might try, although I don't recommend it. I don't like it because the metabisulfates to me, they have like kind of a sulfur y note, like an aroma that I I think is um unpleasant. I mean, clearly it's you're you're bottling it hot, so it's not uh not a probably not an enzyme thing. Uh and it's interesting that the discoloration is seen near the top. So it's either a drying effect, which it can't be because it's sealed, or it's oxidation, which is happening at the place where the oxygen is present, aka the top.
+
+[34:11] So I would say if you adding an antioxidant is a is a way to go, or if you can, going back to the last question about vermouths, put a uh an inert gas blanket on the top of it, that might also help you. So inert gas blanket on the top, um, and or an antioxidant. I would, you know, if it was me, I would do both. I don't know what kind of time length you're talking about to browning, so I don't know uh kind of how much you you know can can get rid of. But those are uh those are my suggestions.
+
+[34:41] What do you think? Good. Good. Um, if you have time for another quick question, uh, what would your three must-try food joints be in New York while on a budget? Can be street food vendor, takeaway joint, reasonably priced restaurant, etc.
+
+[34:55] etc. Thanks for keeping up the good work. So what what do you think? Robert is for lunch, let's say. Yeah?
+
+[35:01] Yeah. Come to Robert's for lunch. How much does uh how much does Pac Pac cost? Uh I don't know. No idea.
+
+[35:09] I don't know. Yeah. Um Jack, you got any good budget joints? I'm thinking now. I guess you could you could do Robert's on a budget.
+
+[35:17] Pac Pac, I'll look up the price. I don't know. I mean like Pacpock's a great restaurant. That's uh Andy Ricker's restaurant. And uh I don't think the prices were that high, right?
+
+[35:26] I don't think so. Who else's budget? Who's b uh Nastasha's Nastasha's thinking? Right? Yeah.
+
+[35:35] All right. Jack, are we are we are we about to get the plug pulled or should we uh we don't have time for another five minutes. I got another five minutes, but not not time to see what do I have any Twitter questions, Toss? No. All right.
+
+[35:44] So we can just uh blither I can just blither for five minutes. Oh, we didn't talk about the music. Yeah, we did not. Alright, I I kind of shunned it. Here's the deal.
+
+[35:54] So we're not allowed to use uh Vicious Vicious Vodka by Amos Milburn anymore. Which I enjoy. We can make our own song called Fish is Fish's vodka. And then you know be, you know, be all set. But uh that that's probably not gonna happen.
+
+[36:10] But here here's here's the thing. So so what Jack wants to do is to have some sort of a contest for kind of a user user, a listener to say that they you know have a song they think should be the uh the what's it called? Theme song. Theme song for the cooking issue show. And then I think you well, I know I just bought uh a bass, a new bass.
+
+[36:28] I haven't played bass in many, many years, but I just bought an acoustic electric bass, and I thought, you know, Jack and I could come up with some sort of crazy theme song. And he says maybe we should have the listener theme song versus our theme song of win, especially if we do fishes. Yeah, and then people can vote. They can vote. Especially if they choose our theme song and we give them some free heritage heritage meat.
+
+[36:52] That's right. But now you're discouraging people from entering in the entering into the thing. Well, I think uh we'll probably get a little bit more. All the people who enter the contest and give us a real submission will get some some work jobs from the Heritage Meat Shop if they happen to be in New York. What are the requirements?
+
+[37:08] Yeah, what are the requirements, Jack? For the song, yeah. Yeah. Shouldn't be uh it doesn't need to be longer than say a minute and a half. And uh should be clean for the radio.
+
+[37:17] Right. Right. Uh instrumental, right? Well well, you know what? Not necessarily.
+
+[37:24] No, I'm I'm gonna keep it pretty open-ended. Yeah, like why would it why would it be instrumental? Like, like, for instance, like I would be proud to have the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef. Oh, man. You know.
+
+[37:33] We should get him on right. Right? He should probably come up with your theme song. Well, I don't know. Uh yeah.
+
+[37:45] Yeah. I mean, like, I like the problem is that like I'm just a fan of that uh particular uh that particular song. So, you know, you know, Hirschwag Grandfed Beef. So anyway, send us your music. Info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[37:59] Come up with a theme song. Does it have to be in a certain format? MP3 is best. Yeah, yeah. Alrighty then.
+
+[38:06] Uh so I guess uh, you know, you're gonna give you ten more seconds to call in. If not, have a good week, and we'll be back next week with cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[38:37] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Looking for a fun night out? K1 Speed puts you behind the wheel for an adrenaline filled time you and your friends will never forget. Off the track, the fun keeps rolling with arcade games, great food, and drinks. They even have private party rooms for your birthday parties and corporate outings. Race hard, laugh harder, and claim your spot on the podium.
+
+[0:24] K1 speed. More than racing, it's an experience. Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. For more information, visit Hearstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:47] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. That's a little mellow for us, don't you think? Yeah, it is, huh? It's like a little mellow. It's like how am I supposed to go from that to Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:08] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez in the studio and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? You know, I think the mellow theme actually got you more amped up. Well, I had to be. Yeah, that worked out well.
+
+[1:29] Yeah. I'm telling you, man, I have the the bass. I haven't practiced enough. Well here's what I realized. Like if you don't play bass for like 10, 12 years or so, uh, you lose your chops.
+
+[1:38] You know what I'm saying? Like my my hands tire out soon. I'm what they I'm what they call a a uh a sissy. Um but yeah, I'm still thinking about uh writing uh writing the you know a cooking issues based theme. Or I could just do like a night court style stupid bass intro thing.
+
+[1:54] We could try that. Yeah, for those of you that remember Night Court. Even do like some sign public, like Joe just said, yeah. That would be cool. Yeah, I I mean I could do that stuff all day long.
+
+[1:59] If you guys got the mic, I got the bass. Let's do it next week. All right, I'll bring in the bass. By the way, speaking of next week, on uh starting on this Sunday is the Star Chef's International Chef Conference, does. Are you are you happy that you're gonna be out of the country during that?
+
+[2:20] That means you're not gonna have to help during the uh yeah. So one thing we have to do is serve a cocktail though. No, no, I'm doing a uh I'm also doing a workshop. See you wouldn't know it because it doesn't say it anywhere on the website that I'm doing a workshop, but uh there is a slot. I'm doing a workshop on Monday from I think uh something in the afternoon sometime, like uh two to four or something like that.
+
+[2:41] Uh at the International Chefs Congress, and whatever, they had a slot, so they're like, hey Dave, will you be our sloppy third? Some guy cancel. Will you do it? I'm like, yeah, sure. What the hell, I'll do it.
+
+[2:50] I'll do it. I'll do it. So it's supposed to be tech and cocktails. I'm gonna bust out probably the centrifuge. I might bring the crappy little centrifuge just for you guys to play with.
+
+[2:57] Although it stars, it's not firing up. I uh I took it apart. So in in all fairness to the piece of equipment. I took it apart, but it's not getting electrical signal anymore. Is your yours at home still working?
+
+[3:06] Circulator? No, no, no, no, no. The uh the uh centrifuge. Pay attention, pay attention. Catch up.
+
+[3:10] Oh, uh he took it to Del Posto. So it's still working? Yeah. Alright, I'm gonna have to borrow that sucker. Um or fix fix mine.
+
+[3:18] But I'm gonna bring the full size centrifuge. I'm gonna do a lot of work with uh what I've been working on for the past couple of weeks for the new bar menu is tannin removal. Tannin removal. I'll just leave it there. I won't spoil it before the demo, or before I can write it, but just put that in your head.
+
+[3:34] Tannin removal. And also, some interesting bodying effects with uh whey protein. So head on down to the International Chefs Congress to see Dave Arnold, me from Booker and Dax, our bar doing a what in the hell they call this? Like a mixing workshop or something. I know, right?
+
+[3:52] Pathetic. Well, you're not doing it for me, you're sitting around. So every time I I have a birthday, right? Which is too many, too many, too many times that Nastasha and I have shared birthdays together. I'm like, we still work together?
+
+[4:03] What the hell? Like it's like we just increment the year and we're like, I'm 41 freaking years old, and I'm still carrying my own equipment to demos. You know, when you're like 20 and uh forget 20, when you're like 19 and you're in a band and you're like someday our band's gonna be awesome, and someone's gonna move my big bass rig for me from place to place. I'm gonna have like, you know, roadies. No, never happens.
+
+[4:26] Never happens. The day that someone actually picks up a piece of equipment for me, I will drop dead from shock. So I hope it never happens. Anyway. Japanese, the Japanese.
+
+[4:35] What? The Japanese. Oh, that's true, man. That was crazy. And then we almost died from shock.
+
+[4:39] Yeah. Right? We showed up, all the equipment was moved around. Yeah. Like the equipment we asked for was there, and we we almost passed out.
+
+[4:46] Remember that? Crazy. Don't do that to me. Don't, don't, don't all of a sudden change things like that. It's no good.
+
+[4:51] Okay. Uh last week we had a question in on oh, I didn't say the uh number. 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 to call in live to the studio. 718 being a Brooklyn number, this being the land of hipsters.
+
+[5:04] Okay, uh last week I had a uh Twitter question come in and I didn't get a chance to uh answer it. I apologize. From Landon Young, ordered a Berkshire hog head and belly, bacon, cold or hot smoke, and head favorite use. Okay, look. The bacon, uh look, I I don't I've only made it like once or twice many, many, many, many years ago, and I don't do a lot of smoking.
+
+[5:23] In fact, there's another smoking question here. Um, but I will say what what I from what I do know, uh, I, you know, the recipes uh ask for a warm smoke, not a cold smoke. In other words, like bacon is supposed to be somewhat cooked, up in anywhere between 130, which is on the low side, but really more like 145, uh 150 is typical, like 140 I would do probably for it after it's been cured in a mixture of salt uh and nitrates and spices and possibly sugar and maple syrup and what else. Um, you know, you could do dry or wet, it doesn't matter, but they're almost invariably cooked during the uh smoking process. That said, that said, and it all depends.
+
+[6:01] If you're gonna fry it, I mean who the heck cares how much, you know, not not who the heck cares, but like it's not super uh critical on what temperature you're gonna cook it up to so long as you bring it up to the final cooking temperature. Now, if you salt the bejesus out of it and dry it, then you don't need to cook it at all, right? Um so it a lot is dependent upon what kind of cure you're gonna use uh and how you're gonna use the finished product. That said, the my favorite, not bacon, but pork belly I've ever had was Wiley, my brother-in-law Wiley Dufrein's original WD-50 opening menu uh long cooked pork belly, and he cured it. Uh he cured it in a mix with nitrites, actually, uh and salt for a long period of time, and he cooked it at an extremely low temperature in a circulator.
+
+[6:45] He didn't smoke it, right? So he just took it out uh of the cure, pressed it really flat so it was nice and dense, and then uh crisped up the skin side and sliced it thin, served it. Or not even thin, it was in chunks, but the most delicious pork belly I've ever had. But if you were going to do a uh something like that instead of a bacon, then what I would do is I would do the cooking procedure as Wiley did. Then I would uh dry it off at a very low temperature so you're not cooking it, uh, and then cold smoke it.
+
+[7:14] That stuff was delicious. Oh my god, was that stuff delicious? Okay. Uh and then as for the head, favorite use. Uh now, okay, look.
+
+[7:21] So if you want to go Italian on this, you should definitely cut the gel. I'm assuming the head comes with the jowl, right? And Nastasha, I know that you hate almost everything in the world that's delicious, but you like guanciali, right? Mm-hmm. Really?
+
+[7:31] You're not just saying that so I don't yell at you? I don't like it as much as Pinchale. I would, I don't put it in uh carbonara. Okay, uh listen, I'm not gonna, I can't I can't have this discussion with you, Nastasha. But guanchali, which is the cu which is the cured uh jowl of the pig, is in my mind one of the more delicious things in the world.
+
+[7:51] It's my it it perhaps ranks in the top one of my pizza toppings. You know, aside from you know, whatever cheese and sauce, blah blah blah. But like in terms of meat-based topping for a pizza, my absolute favorite. Have you not had the guancialian egg pizza here? I have not had that.
+
+[8:06] Guess what's gonna happen today? Guancialian egg pizza! At Robert's come to Robertas and have our delicious pizzas. Right? Right.
+
+[8:13] Uh anyway, uh so guanchali is delicious. So if there is uh if the jowl is left on the uh pig head, I would definitely take that off and cure that separately. I uh I you know I like a saw like a lot of people who are doing these artisanal guancholis, like cure the hell out of them, and they really salt the ever-loving crap out of them, uh, and they become a lot drier. I actually prefer a more modern, wetter, what? Nastasha's like uh shocked because she's reading something about uh uh drug-resistant gonorrhea on in a magazine.
+
+[8:39] But okay, so once you cut the jowl off, then uh and I've never made it, but one of my favorite things to eat made from pork head is uh is uh testa, you know, uh head cheese, uh the Italian-style head cheese. There's a decent recipe for it on page 187 of the new Salumi book by uh Poulson and Ruleman. You like Testa styles? She's not paying attention. I'm reading your tweets.
+
+[9:00] Uh no, uh yeah, I do. Yeah, okay, fine, fine. Good, good. Nice enough. She actually is trying to find out if any of you guys are tweeting in questions.
+
+[9:07] So I'm gonna give her a pass on this one for not paying attention. It's good, it's good. Anyway, uh, but if you the one thing I have done a lot with pork heads and I like, and I know it's not traditional at all, is making a scrapple with them. Scrapple, scrapple, for those of you that don't eat scrapple, smack yourself in the face. Unless you're a vegetarian, if you don't eat cra uh scrapple, I almost called it scrapple, which is a lot of people.
+
+[9:27] Smack yourself because scrapple is incredibly delicious. Now, what is scrapple? Scrapple is basically polenta plus. If you just sold scrapple as polenta plus, then everyone would order this, right? So when you're butchering a hog or whatever, whatever you got, right?
+
+[9:42] Hog, uh traditionally the scrapple will be made from kind of the the the uh metzels, you know, metals up of the butcher's soup of whatever's being boiled uh and done, along with uh all the entrails called the pluck, and it would have a lot of liver. And so the liver thing is what kind of I think what gave it a bad uh wrap among certain people, but modern scrapples don't have to be made with liver, don't have to have that livery taste. You just cook the heck out of the head, right? Get a nice strong gelatinum, the keys has to be a gelatinous stock. Pull the head out, pick the meat, chop it up, throw in the cornmeal, cook it like a polenta, at the last second, throw the meat back into it, form it into blocks, let that sucker set, cut that sucker, fry it, and pour maple syrup over it.
+
+[10:19] Could anything possibly be more delicious than this? I don't know. I don't know. I like scrapple hits like a cord in my taste memory uh because even my grandma actually, my non-Pennsylvania Dutch grandma used to make it for me, but you know, I have a lot of like Pennsylvania in my family going way back, although I never lived there. Uh so scrapple is uh fantastic, and there's many regional variants of scrapple.
+
+[10:40] If you want to read an incredibly informative but deathly boring book, the authoritative book on Scrapple is William Voice Weaver's book titled Scrapple. Uh another way, what's it? So Scrapple, you do you like Scrapp? You know, you're not even paying attention, but you don't like Scrapple. I don't think I've ever had it.
+
+[10:54] Do you like polenta? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another thing, I don't know whether I've discussed this uh on the air before, but another food that has a bad rap, like scrapple, is freaking haggis. Haggis.
+
+[11:03] Have I discussed this? Anyone remember me discussing haggis? Hagis freaking delicious. If you were to just sell haggis as oatmeal plus, right, which is basically what it is. It's like oatmeal and meat stuff stuff stuffed into a sheep c uh sheep's uh what's that thing called?
+
+[11:17] Stomach and cooked. That is delicious. That is delicious. Haggis, neeps, and tatties. Look, there's meat, sure.
+
+[11:24] There's meat in haggis that some people are screamish about, but you eat that crap every day if you eat any sort of processed meat. And whatever. I'm just saying scrapple, haggis, come back, brothers, because you are some delicious meat products. Uh should we take a commercial break? Sure.
+
+[11:38] All right. Coming back in a second with some more cooking issues.org. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in Central California. Hell yeah. Free range.
+
+[12:47] Sustainably produce. Humane. Hurst transgrass-fed beef. The authentic flavor of the American West. Oh, yeah.
+
+[13:02] The authentic flavor of the American West. Hurst ranch. Grass-fed beef. Right? Love that song.
+
+[13:09] It never gets old. Love that song. Love it. That's the only reason we did the uh the fundraiser here was because we knew that we would get the live performance of the Hearst French grass-fed beef song. That's all that's all I wanted.
+
+[13:18] Okay. Uh, this in uh we have a lot of actually smoking and preservation questions today, Stas. Uh, this one in, I'm gonna do one that I can't answer. Should I do the one I can't answer now, or just do it at the end and say, well, sorry, I can't answer it. Bye.
+
+[13:29] But I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna suck it up and say I can't answer it. Uh John from Osaka writes in and says, if you know the temperature of a food, uh well, sorry, if you know the temperature of food will be stored at, and that food's water content, uh, in the literature, water content is abbreviated A with a little W, by the way, meaning water activity. Uh, is there a way to calculate how much salt you need to add to that food to preserve it indefinitely? I want to make a variety of salted foods that can be stored indefinitely in the refrigerator and around five degrees Celsius.
+
+[13:56] I found a few lists of water contents of common foods, but I was unable to find information about what saltage percent uh what salt percentage is necessary to prevent microbial growth. Thanks, thanks to John and Osaka. No. How messed up is that? No, there's not.
+
+[14:08] First of all, salt does a bunch of different things. Uh, huge quantities of salt uh actually stop uh almost everything from growing, right? Which is why mummies work. Uh you know, they're completely well, they're not just salted, they're dehydrated, right? They're actually not salt, it's natron, etc.
+
+[14:24] My point is is that salt is usually used uh uh in conjunction with dehydration for preservation in foods like uh ham, for instance. Now, salt also has some other properties uh in that it inhibits many pathogenic bacteria, but not certain you know reasonable amounts of salt, but not things like lactic acid bacteria. So you add salt to things like cabbage to produce sauerkraut uh or kimchi because they will select for uh lactic acid bacteria to grow. The lactic acid bacteria increase the acidity, decrease the pH. And it's actually the combination of the salt plus the acidity that prevents uh things from spoiling.
+
+[15:06] So, and we're gonna talk about this again when we talk about sriracha in a minute, but it's uh or siracha, sorry. Uh, but the the issue is is it's very hard. Um, like water water activity and salt are one combination. And so if you have a particular system, like a meat system, then you can know a certain quantity of salt plus a certain water activity that are good. Uh, but it's hard to know because the question is is you might be safe with a lower salt content if, for instance, there's acid present.
+
+[15:36] So it's very difficult to answer, and I looked around for any sort of general guidelines uh that were applicable to all circumstances, i.e., meats, vegetables, fruits, and I couldn't find anything that I'm willing to quote. Uh, and so I don't have an answer, although this, you know, I I'm interested if anyone uh writes or tweets in or calls in with uh a source for information like that. I'm I'm happy to take it. Uh should I take a non-preservation-related question, Frison? Alright, I'll do a non-preservation-related question.
+
+[16:08] Uh question from Justin. Uh for an upcoming party with friends, uh, we are all bringing special cocktails. I like special cocktails. You? I do.
+
+[16:15] Yeah. Although, what do you actually prefer? Champagne. Champagne, correct. Uh, I've decided I want to make a vodka coffee and would really appreciate your input on it.
+
+[16:23] The goal is a full strength cocktail with a strong, rich coffee flavor and full caffeine content as well. So you want to pick them up. You know, that's the uh the espresso martini, and I don't for some reason his name just pops straight out of my head. One of the most famous bartenders in London from like, you know, for a long time. His name literally just popped out of my head.
+
+[16:41] But uh he invented the espresso martini, and the quote that he says is that a model came in and she asked for something that would pick her up and F her up. Wow. And so he invented the espresso martini. It's a good quote, yeah? Okay.
+
+[16:55] Uh and I'm seeing that's what you want here. Okay, so uh my chosen technique is a mid-grade vodka, filtered through a charcoal filter. You gotta get the right kind of uh filter, obviously, to do the right kind of uh flavor stripping. Uh cold brew coffee with a very good uh dark chocolatey coffee and in the refrigerator overnight. Filter back into the bottle, mix in vanilla, uh simple syrup to flavor.
+
+[17:16] Is there anything I can do to take this up a notch? Well, yeah. Okay, so look. So you're doing cold brew. Um, assuming you're doing the um kind of concentrated um oh, what's the name of it?
+
+[17:27] The one where you basically just stir up the grounds, let them sit in contact with the grounds for a long time, and then filter, right? As opposed to the Kyoto style uh that produces a c a coffee concentrate. So here's the thing: cold brew. Uh cold brew is becoming extremely popular right now. I don't really do much of it because I I prefer I drink a boatload of coffee, but almost exclusively in the form of espresso.
+
+[17:49] I'm trying to branch out, but I'm branching out first into uh hot hot coffees, right? Drip drip style and press style, you know. Anyway. So uh, but uh I do a lot of work with nitrous infusion and coffee. And I what I would do to kick it up is to try to do the coffee extraction directly into the liquor.
+
+[18:07] It makes an obscenely coffee uh flavored thing. See if you like it better and will allow you to have more wiggle room in terms of the other ingredients you add because it's gonna put you on your behind, uh, as they say with the espresso market in more ways than one. So with anything, the the flavors that are extracted uh in in any sort of brewing situation are dependent upon what you're trying to extract. So in coffee, there are acidic flavors, there are um there are bitter flavors, there's caffeine, there's there's a whole range of different flavors, and they're all extracted uh differently under different regimes, i.e., different pressures, different temperatures, different times, right? So uh espresso uh is brewed under extremely high pressure in very short amounts of time, uh you know, you know, through a particular kind of ground and it favors the kind of extraction you get from espresso.
+
+[18:59] Colder one, colder uh they say, although I haven't done a lot of experimenting, like a long-term cold cold drip coffee tends to produce a less acidic uh coffee, extracts less of the or maybe changes the uh doesn't alter the coffee to make those more acidic things. I don't really know. But if you were to just mix coffee grounds into liquor, you get a certain extraction. The longer you let that that liquor sit, the more of the bitter components are extracted, and the less of the varietal note you get of the coffee, and more of the just the backbiting bitter. If you pressurize that liquor with nitrous oxide in a whip in an ISI whipper, and you can look up uh rapid infusion on the cooking issues website to check it out.
+
+[19:36] Um, but like two minutes, you get an extremely like you put the an espresso-related ground in the in the in the liquor, pressurize it with nitrous oxide. The nitrous oxide forces the liquor into the coffee grounds, you vent it, it boils out violently. You get a very dark, very rich and non-bitter uh coffee that you can do like that, and you could have the whole thing done in under three minutes. And we make a lot of drinks with that as a base, and it's extremely coffee and extremely punchy. You might like it worse than cold brew, you like might like it better than cold brew.
+
+[20:05] It is a form of cold brew in that there's no heat added to it. Um too long an extraction with that technique produces extremely bitter, bitter notes. You can also change the extraction into straight water by doing a nitrous oxide uh infusion of uh water into coffee at cold temperatures and test the difference between that kind of extraction and your standard cold brew technique. With any of these things, there's no better, there's no worse, there's just what you like better. I happen to like a two-minute infusion of coffee at I forget what it is, I think it's roughly 32 grams uh uh ground coffee per liter of uh per liter of uh liquor uh for two minutes with two ISI chargers in a one-liter container, um, shaken for about a minute and a half, uh allowed to sit for two minutes, vented violently and strained.
+
+[20:49] That's my favorite. But uh your favorite may vary. I find that that's non-bitter, but if you do two and a half to three minutes, you get uh more of a bitter uh bitter note. Uh so I would do that. Here's another thing.
+
+[20:58] If you really want to take up your coffee experience a uh notch. If you are a fan of the creamy mouthfeel of a hot espresso, you can re-mimic some of that by uh carbonating not with CO2, which Manhattan Special Soda aside, I'm not it's very hard to get a good brew that way. Uh nitrous. If you actually, once you chill the cocktail, you carbonate it with nitrous and spray it out of a foamer. It's not the necessarily the foam, but the creamy aeration you get from the nitrous bubbles and the slight sweetness that comes from it, uh, mimics the body that you get in a hot in a hot style espresso, but in a cold drink.
+
+[21:32] And uh I tend to do that with uh a good number of coffee drinks that I do that don't contain milk. Uh although I could do it in milky coffee drinks too. Why don't I? Is it because I'm stupid? I know why.
+
+[21:41] It's because it costs a lot of money to do in a commercial situation to keep pumping those cartridges out. We should do one. What the hell? I mean, just for ourselves. Do you like that coffee drink, Stuck?
+
+[21:50] Yeah, it's good, right? We make a drink called the Shakerado that's that that coffee liquor I just told you with uh um so two ounces of of that liquor. And this one's it's m it's mellow. It's a lot a lot mellower because there's there's milk and cream in it. So it's two ounces of that, I think a half ounce of simple syrup, one to one, and uh an ounce of cream and an ounce of uh milk shaken and it gets a good frothy head, and you pour that into a glass.
+
+[22:13] But we could do that probably with a cartridge and just spray that sucker out and just go go loony bins with it. I'll try it. Maybe I'll try it today or tomorrow or whatever. They have two things. Yeah.
+
+[22:22] Is that the guy? Uh from Espresso Martini. Oh, yeah, that is him. Yeah. And all right on the line.
+
+[22:28] Oh. Caller, you're on the air. Hi. Yeah, my name's Jeff. I'm calling from Los Angeles.
+
+[22:33] Um, I had a question about uh cocooey nuts or candle nuts in Indonesian food. Right. I know I understand that they're uh poisonous, and I guess I wondered what what's the temperature you're supposed to cook them to, or can you kind of pre-cook them so that way they're not poisonous? 'Cause I won't want to keep them around the house, but I'm worried about my young nephew and dogs and cats and stuff eating them and dying. Uh wait, wait, but you you want to eat them yourselves or you just want to find out how to oh you want to keep them as solids around but you want to neutralize them.
+
+[23:05] Right. Okay. I researched this uh I researched this a couple of months ago, and the only thing that stuck in my head was I really wanted one because you can burn them straight up apparently. Have you ever burned one? I haven't actually burned them before, but that's why they call them candle nuts, apparently, is because they make you can they're they're oily enough you can use them in like candles.
+
+[23:24] Right. Yeah, I mean that's what I read, and I've always wanted to like wouldn't that be awesome, like you know, instead of a regular candle on the table just burning that sucker. Um That'd be kind of cool. Yeah, uh but I see I seem to remember there there being some I I I can't remember off the top of my head what the toxic principles in it are, and therefore since I can't remember what the toxic principles in it are, I can't think of a good way to remove them. Um I seem to remember there being some procedures for it.
+
+[23:48] Are they they are they consumed locally or are they just burned? They're they're consumed. They're actually part of uh Indonesian cuisine. I guess they're a thickener for uh a lot of curries, Indonesian curries and things like that. And do they do more than just cook do they cook them in a bunch of soaks of water?
+
+[24:03] I I guess you kind of crush them up and put them inside of the curry and they create some type of thickening. Um I I I haven't kept them around the house or use them yet, just because I'm I'm concerned because I have m you know, small kids and and dogs, so I'm worried. Right. I was given some poisonous nuts by a friend of mine and from Singapore once, and I forget the name of them. They weren't candle nuts.
+
+[24:24] And those ones you had to uh I think you had to cook them in like three boils of water first and then use them for whatever you're gonna use them. But you know, there's a lot of nuts that aren't poisonous, acorns, for instance, that uh are extraordinarily bitter. And so uh you would extract the bitter components by boiling them a bunch of times in water, throwing that water away, and then and then crushing and grinding it. But I'd have to I'd have to look up and seeing whether or not there's some there's some poisonous things that are that are destroyed by fermentation, and there are some poisonous things that are destroyed by uh just being heat labile, and there are some poisonous things that are destroyed by leaching. My guess with these guys is that it's by leaching.
+
+[25:07] You're hoping it's by leaching, because then you can just boil it a bunch of times, throw the water away and be good. But I'm gonna have to research it because I don't know off the top of my head. Okay. Or I was I was also wondering, I have a circulator if I can just cook it at a certain temperature for X amount of time, I'll just pasteurize it and kill it off that way. Okay, so like certain things like water chestnuts are have actual parasites in them and need to be cooked.
+
+[25:29] You know, you can kill that way, but i it it's all a question of whether or not the whatever the toxic principle in them is uh is heat stable. If it's not heat stable, if it's heat labile, then yes, you can just cook it away, and then it's a question of knowing a time temperature. And if you're if you're lucky enough that the that the temperature uh to destroy the toxin is low enough to not destroy the structure of the nut, then you can have something that looks like a raw, undorked with nut that um you know is i is is okay, but the odds of that are fairly low, I would guess. I would guess you have to leach the stuff out. If you're never gonna if you're never gonna eat them, you could probably lease them out with something that won't ruin them.
+
+[26:12] But I have to I have to research it. Stas, can you put that down as like something for me to look? I'm gonna I'm gonna look into candle nut uh preparation and I'll I'll try to get to it next week. Does that sound good? Sounds good.
+
+[26:22] Thank you. All right, thank you. Uh okay. So I already answered the the coffee question, yeah? Yeah.
+
+[26:28] I did, right? I finished that? Okay, good. Uh because I never know. I can never remember whether or not I got like sucked off topic or whether I answered it.
+
+[26:35] Is that I mean, I guess that's that makes sense because of me, because that's how I work. Okay. You guys know next week is episode 100, right? What? Oh my god, we gotta blow this out.
+
+[26:45] What are we gonna do, Jack? Wait, I lied the week after next week. Oh that's just even more uh advanced notice for you. We gotta do something. Yeah?
+
+[26:54] Yeah? All right, we'll figure it out. Okay. From Jonathan. What is the best way to smoke a whole chicken?
+
+[27:01] I have a pretty good uh kitchen and includes a low temperature smoker as well as a hot smoker, and both have good temperature control. I also have a circulator and a CVAP. Yeah, that's pretty good. Uh so uh anyway, for the for the two people that listen to this show that don't know what a circulator is, God bless you for listening to my ramblings without knowing what a circulator is. But uh uh circulator is a piece of equipment that can hold a temperature very accurately.
+
+[27:27] Actually, uh there's kind of the like the wars between my buddies, right? Philip Preston now has the $500 circulator. What's the uh Nomiko going for? Uh Weepop circulator. $100?
+
+[27:36] No, it's like $350 or $400. Anyway, so it's the War of the Inexpensive Circulators, and while this may not be a good thing for circulator manufacturers, it is gonna be a great thing for the world at large. Because I predict that with the circulator dropping below 500, there's going to be an explosion of circulators on the market. What do you think? Yeah, I think so.
+
+[27:53] Yeah, she doesn't give care. She doesn't care. You like using the circulator, right? I haven't used it in a while, man. Really?
+
+[27:58] Why? Because you have brain damage or you don't cook anymore. Because she goes out with Mark Ladner from freaking Del Posto and just has him do the goddamn cooking. I didn't mean to curse. Wow, that was a curse.
+
+[28:08] It was a curse. Well, it depends on who you're talking to. Depends on who you're talking to. Jack, is that a curse on this radio show? We'll have to ask the concerned apparent who wrote in that one time.
+
+[28:16] Ooh. Oh no, but he was happy. He just didn't want to, he just said he pre-listened to it. Oh, right. Screened the shows.
+
+[28:22] He didn't hate us for it. I've cursed more than you. That's true. That is true. It's a family program.
+
+[28:27] Okay. So, Jonathan, yes, you do have a uh pretty well uh pointed kitchen there. Okay. Here's the issue with the smoked chicken. Uh so the question is most people I looked up on the internets uh to see what the kind of standard answer for the smoked chicken uh thing is, and it seems to me that everyone cooks the heck out of a chicken.
+
+[28:46] They overcook the hell out of it. They like it with the with the crap cooked out of it. So most people on the internets are smoking it uh at a temperature between 250 degrees and 300 degrees Fahrenheit inside of the smoking chamber for a long period of time. So it's the equivalent of of uh of like you know, slow cook uh on any sort of uh uh barbecue they just with smoke. Um in general, they brine the the ever loving whatever out of these birds because when you're gonna viciously overcook the birds because they're they're all cooked up to an internal temperature of like 170, which is like 165, 170, which is above 70 degrees Celsius, which is ouch, that's high.
+
+[29:23] It's high temperature, like 63, 64, 65, even 67 Celsius. So high. So high hurts my feelings to think about it. The leg meat might actually be okay at that temperature because there's enough connective tissue to break down and be good, but the breast meat is going to be dry. It will be dry.
+
+[29:38] There will be dry breast meat. Um so they brine uh the heck out of it with salt. The salt ameliorates uh the uh the protein, like lets up allow the protein to hold on to more water even when it's viciously overcooked. Um, and then then smoke it, and they love the smoke flavor so much from the long smoking that they probably tolerate the fact. They all say that it's juicy, and I'm sure there's fat present, which makes it look juicy, especially in the fatter parts of the chicken.
+
+[29:59] But I guarantee you that that breast meat is not juicy at those temperatures. It just isn't, unless you've really jacked it with phosphates and salt and all sorts of stuff, which I doubt you do. Here are the important things to take into consideration. One, if you want uh smoke to develop on the surface of the chicken, you want a real smoky flavor, you're really gonna have to uh dry the skin off, let it dry off before you hit the serious smoke with it. And the same thing, by the way, goes with the bacon, as we said before.
+
+[30:27] I probably didn't say it before, but obviously you want the surface to be dry, so it helps to uh let the thing, even before you hit heavy smoke on it to um to get dry. But you know this since you already have a smoker that can do low temperatures as well as high temperatures. Um the other thing is is that um you know it it depends on what you want out of a smoked chicken. So if you want to smoke chicken uh to be pink, right, to have take take on that pink color, then you're gonna need to make sure that you have uh an actual wood or a lot of gas fire. You're gonna you're gonna need a lot of like what they call NOX, i.e.
+
+[31:01] either uh NO gas or NO2 gas, right? NO2 gas, somewhat water soluble, permeates into the um into the chicken, reacts with whatever um you know myoglobin is present and forms a stable pink cured color, right? Which is the I think the best associated uh uh explanation of why uh smoke ring happens in things. So for a smokery for pinkness, you're gonna want uh low low temperatures so that you're not uh denaturing the myoglobin very quickly, right? Because the way myoglobin, even though there's not much in chicken, it's present, the the way myoglobin denatures is the slower it denatures, the more resistant it is to changing its color and uh turning into you know the gray color of totally cooked cooked myoglobe, gray and brown.
+
+[31:43] So uh that's why, for instance, that when you do low temperature cooking in a circulator, uh the meat around the bone, if it's not cooked quickly, uh gets insulated and never really gets cooked uh to uh what people are thinking is a done color. I call that kind of persistent pinking, but it's a slightly different pink when you get uh cured meats, and so you should be fine. People should like it. Although people do throw away pink smoked chickens and turkeys if they don't know any better. Anyway, uh that's that's neither here nor there.
+
+[32:11] Um so uh this is what these guys are doing. If I were you, I would cook this sucker through to I would you want to do a whole chicken, you said, right? Shoot, whole chicken. See if if you were allowed to if you if you're gonna do it whole, then I would brine it because the breast meat's still gonna need protection. Uh even if you cook it, uh let's say we're gonna C vap it up to an internal temperature of uh 66 Celsius, let's say 66 Celsius.
+
+[32:37] The bones will still be uh still be pink there. Now you gotta remember, like if I don't want any pinking around the bones, I completely bone it and leave it whole a la my totally boned out uh crazy aluminum, you know, Thanksgiving turkey. Are we gonna do that again this year, Stuz? Yeah, we can. You wanna?
+
+[32:52] You want to do two? You can have one? What are you doing? Who knows? You don't know what you're doing for Thanksgiving?
+
+[32:58] Oh, okay. Let me give this finished. So then what this is, what I would do then is uh I would I would cook it all the way through, pull it out hot, let it flash off so it dries off, and then you can do a cold smoke, but you will not get a pink ring with that because once you cook the meat, it won't pink up from the uh smoke ring. If you want to go more traditional and you want it more evenly cooked, uh, I would spatchcock it, i.e., cut the thing open and splay it open, although that's not really a uh a whole bird, but that's the way that I do uh larger animals like turkeys. If I'm gonna grill them and I don't have accurate temperature control, of course you do.
+
+[33:27] Okay, caller. You're on the air. Hi, Dave. It's Derek from uh Montreal. Hey.
+
+[33:29] And uh I have a question about oysters. Am I ready? Uh you uh a few weeks ago you mentioned just off the cuff that you would once uh steeped oysters in aquarium salts and water so that they would pick up flavors that you were infusing and not water. Correct. And uh I want to know uh I picked up the salt, and I just want to know what the uh the best approach was to get the a successful result.
+
+[33:58] All right, so okay, so so here's here's the here's the thing. So first thing you have to figure out is how uh briny you like uh your oysters, right? What kind of salt level you want in your oysters? I like fairly salty uh oysters, like so for instance, like ducks berries out of Massachusetts and things like that. I really enjoy that.
+
+[34:18] Uh you might like a slightly less saline one, and so you're gonna have to figure out how much salt you're gonna want to add per uh gallon of liquid. It's usually it's been a while since I've done it, but I believe it's 0.29 or 0.27 pounds of salt per gallon of uh liquid. I'm sorry I remember it for all you metric heads. I'm sorry I remember it in Imperial Units, but that's you know what it is. Um and that relates to the that relates to the average salinity of ocean water, which is what aquarium salt is kind of calibrated to.
+
+[34:49] Okay. So you you're gonna want to end up at something like that. Now the question is what flavors do you want to do? And how fine a uh so what you don't want to do is include anything in the liquid that's going to kill the oysters, i.e., either clog its gills, so large particles, I forget what the exact number is, but it's somewhere on the order of uh particles larger than I think like 10, 12, 14 microns, particles larger larger than that tend to clog up the gills of oysters and kill them. Okay.
+
+[35:14] So you so you don't want uh large particles like that. So you want everything filtered. I use a rotor stator homogenizer that can blend things down to well below that. A vita prep, just for your, you know, just for mental information, can only really get down to about a 20 micron size. So not enough to prevent um prevent gill clogging in this.
+
+[35:37] So you want to make sure that everything is filtered. So juices are good, uh things like that. Uh you also can't be uh acidic, right? So pH water, I mean you gotta get the pH balance of the water has to be uh accurate. So you can't use a lot of uh acids or that will also wipe them out.
+
+[35:55] Uh I have had people say that they've had luck with things that are otherwise irritants like smoke. And we have done bacon in clams, but I haven't done it in oysters because when I was doing a lot of my initial experiments, I want to stay away from things that were known irritants. I know for instance that cardamom uh works. So I'll tell you the recipe that we used to use was we would juice a boatload of carrots. Uh I would then take uh cardamom uh and we would hit it with the uh blender.
+
+[36:20] We make this carrot cardamom liquid, uh, strain it, uh hit it with a rotor stator to make sure all the particles are small. Then we would add uh sea salt uh basically to taste, but roughly see seawater quantity. Now the trick is to get oysters to feed, they can't be too cold. So in the at fridge temperature, it's not uh co it's not it's too cold, the oysters won't feed. Uh so you want to leave it.
+
+[36:42] Yeah, you want to leave them out uh for a little bit to let the let the oysters start feeding. You want to be completely undisturbed. If they hear rapping or tapping, then uh they won't open up and feed. And when we got good at it, we were getting something like 70, uh, 75% of the oysters would uh would open up and eat. Now here's the other thing.
+
+[37:01] They won't die uh you want to make sure it's well oxygenated, right? So blending right beforehand is good because it increases the oxygen level in the uh in the liquid. Okay. So you don't you don't want it to be you want it to be cold, not too warm because that's gonna drive off oxygen, but not too cold so that they feed. The other trick is you don't want to let them s uh go too long because an oyster physiologist once told me that uh there are things that can grow inside of an oyster that are not toxic to it, so won't kill it, but will can be toxic to you.
+
+[37:27] So I try to keep my infute my oyster eating period in um within the safety zone of food. So I keep my I usually try to keep my feeding period down to about two and a half hours, uh somewhere in that range, two and a half, three hours, keep them in that in that danger zone. They're alive still, so I don't consider a real danger zone. Then I ice them down immediately and then shuck them to order. Okay, okay.
+
+[37:50] That's that sounds great. Because I tried leaving them um in uh in the fridge overnight in in pure carrot juice just to see. And uh and they didn't really feed. Um I was kind of disappointed because they didn't there wasn't like visible carrot juice, you know, replacing their their natural juices inside. It was, you know, I could taste them, they're a bit saltier.
+
+[38:12] But uh that was in a cold, cold, cold fridge. So, if you're gonna never opened up. Right, too cold. In fact, that's why they do so well in the fridges, they clam up, they don't open and they're and they're and they're they're good. So you're talking like say I take my I have some beet juice uh sitting waiting for me at work.
+
+[38:26] I'm probably gonna get do another test this afternoon. So I'm gonna have that beet juice at almost room temperature, basically. I wouldn't go too high. Yeah, I mean like fifties, sixties are good. You don't want to go too high, or you know, uh, or you could be growing things like vibrio and all all these other things, but yeah, like fifty, fifty-five, sixty.
+
+[38:44] Like in Celsius, uh, what what is that? Uh oh. Like say like like a fridge, we keep our fridges at about four. So say you're talking like twelve degrees? Yeah, like in that range.
+
+[38:57] I wouldn't worry about it if it gets up, but like yeah, somewhere between twelve and eighteen, somewhere in there. Okay, okay, that's cool. And then and she's talking about two hours at that temperature. Yeah, yeah, two hours. Once they're at that temperature, like two hours, two, two and a half, and then ice them right down.
+
+[39:12] Yeah, perfect. Okay, I'm gonna try that this afternoon. All right, let us slip. Can I hit you with one more? Yeah, sure.
+
+[39:18] Um completely unrelated. I make uh a pine nut butter, or well, I've actually lots of different nut butters. At the moment, it's uh pecan, is what I'm doing. And uh it always breaks in the uh in the robo, and then I bring it back together and multify it by hand after. You have any uh tips, pointers for for smoothness?
+
+[39:36] What do you mean it what do you mean it breaks? What what's the what are the what are the ingredients? Are you adding extra oil to it? Uh I'm adding uh a little bit of uh caramel for sweetness, and uh I usually have to add a few drops of oil just to get it to to spin around in the uh in the robo coupe. Um is is my uh weapon of choice.
+
+[39:56] Do you have a champion juicer? I mean the natural oils come out of the nuts besides any oil that I add, but I find I can re-emulsify that with a whisk and some water by hand after. Yeah, do you have a champion juicer? Uh I have a juicer, I'm not sure what mark it is. Uh I mean, is it the kind that has the masticating, like a tube and the stuff comes out?
+
+[40:14] Because that's great for nut butters. That's what we use to do our pre-grind on nut butters, and then if we want them finer, we put them in a RoboCouper Vitaprep, and then after that, we put them into a wet grinder if we want them really, really, really fine. But ours didn't used to break, did they, Stuz? No. No?
+
+[40:30] I mean, uh, we have a nice juicer, but I don't know if I want to break it if uh that's like what what roasted nuts are gonna do to it. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, not break the, although I did break one once, but I was doing many, many, many, many, many nuts. Uh of course we were overheating the RoboCoos a lot. We were doing a lot of work.
+
+[40:47] We were making for like big events, we would make like big batches of nut butters uh and nut oils, actually. But uh we did have to add for some nuts, depending if they had low oil content. But I don't uh I don't know why they're breaking on you. I mean, you could add some, yeah, you could add an emulsifier, uh uh uh a water, you know, a an oil-loving emulsifier, for instance, less than or something like that, would probably buy it together. But I don't know what the emulsifier of choice is and things like peanut butter.
+
+[41:13] I have to look it up. We don't we never added any liquid at all to it, except for the small amounts of liquid in the form of simple syrup, right, Stas? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's kind of what I'm doing. And I I even boil my simple syrup like till it's almost caramel stage, because I figured less humidity is probably a good thing, right?
+
+[41:30] Uh yeah. You know, uh and you know when you process hard, you should you could probably add like a super finer powder, it'll eventually probably break down. I mean, that's quite the wet grinder we used was for. You could probably get away with it with no added, and then you notice it gets really hot when the robo runs a long time. You flash off a good amount of the water.
+
+[41:47] You know what I mean? Like if you run it long enough for it to get hot. Uh, but we never had a break. I'm trying to think. I'll I'll I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna put that on the list of things to try and try and look into.
+
+[42:00] Okay, all right, great. Well, I look forward to uh trying those oysters this afternoon. All right, uh let's know let's know how it works. Tweet tweet your results on in. Uh we'll do.
+
+[42:09] All right, cool. Uh got a question from Daniel in Illinois. Hi, Nastasha and Dave. I want to make Leela's Thai style sriracha sauce from She Simmers.com, which is like, you know, one of the good, you know, Thai uh Thai Thai slash American, Thai Merican blogs. Anyway, uh and give it uh as gifts this Christmas.
+
+[42:25] I'm wondering if it is possible to can small amounts of this stuff so that it will last longer before opening. Is there a way to figure out if and how this can be safely done? I'm assuming uh I would have to get some pH trips and probably increase the amount of vinegar and or sugar in the recipe. I do have a pressure cooker if that helps. Uh and a related question what are some of your favorite food items to make and give away?
+
+[42:44] Last year we did caramels, candied orange peel, and check's mix. This year I'm planning on roasting coffee uh and trying to do the hot sauce. Any other ideas? Roasting coffee is tough. Uh this is from Daniel in Illinois.
+
+[42:54] Uh roasting coffee is tough because uh it doesn't last very long. So if you're gonna roast it and bring it to someone's house that day, that that's good. But obviously, even like vacuum, it's not quite the same. I mean, you could vacuum pack, I guess, whatever. But anyway, roasted coffee is difficult, although fun to do.
+
+[43:06] I used to uh, you know, uh it's been a number of years since I roasted, but I used to only uh roast my own, and I love it. Of course you can get really interesting coffees from places like Sweet Maria's on the net and all that stuff. Uh I was uh I used to be uh uh uh an air popcorn uh roaster guy, uh, and then I had the the ones that were made for the purpose, and I burnt out three of them, and then I went to Whirly Pop. Anyway, enough in coffee roasting. I like to give away cookies.
+
+[43:27] What about you, Stas? Christmas? Yeah. Yeah. I like cookies.
+
+[43:31] Nastasha and I tried to give away uh like, you know, whatever that was, a thousand, two thousand cookies or whatever to uh the troops uh a number of years ago, and man, you would not believe how hard it is to give cookies to to troops. Uh but uh you know, leave that for a different life to talk about that. Uh so uh on the stuff. So I looked uh at her uh recipe, and by the way, she's also a linguistics expert, so it's uh uh not just in Thai apparently, but also in classics. So it's uh it's not uh sriracha, as most of us say, but siracha, siriracha, sorry.
+
+[44:00] It's one of our favorites, although I also found out that the one most of us use, which I call the actual name of it's uh Hui Fang's uh sriracha sauce, siracha sauce, uh is the one we call the the the nicely the rooster or actually the kitchen we call it the hot cock sauce is the one with the it's in the bottle with the rooster on the front and bright red because the bottle's clear. Apparently that's not the Thai style. The actually the one that she calls out, uh the two brand shark, I don't know, and panic, which is the one I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but that's the one that I got from my local Thai guy who said this is what we actually use the Panich, and that's the delicious, but not the same as the rooster brand one. So uh her recipe is more like the panic, which is delicious if you can get it. So her recipe is 24 ounces of uh red uh jalapenos or serranos.
+
+[44:42] Uh she says do not substitute any other type of pepper. Eight ounces of peeled garlic cloves, four ounces of white vinegar, twelve ounces water, sixteen ounces sugar, and uh six tablespoons of salt. Uh so and you know, you follow her recipe, but that's the basic thing. I don't think that that recipe on its own is probably a hundred percent safe. What you need to do is get a pH meter and check to make sure it has a pH of 4.5 or below.
+
+[45:03] Do not use your pressure cooker. Um, we'll get into that one second. So uh you need a pH of 4.5 or below to ensure that it's what's called a uh an acidified food, i.e. not a low acid food. Uh so just check that.
+
+[45:17] I don't count, I mean there is quite a bit of salt, that's quite a bit of salt uh in there, but I don't know that it's enough to uh to preserve it. I would go to the National Center for uh home proof food preservation and and look at their look at their things. Here's what they had to say. So I would I would take it below 4.5 and then do what's called the boiling water, where you actually cover the uh products in boiling water inside the cans and and and boil them out. Unfortunately, Jack's gonna cut me off.
+
+[45:43] I don't have enough time to fully explain uh um all all of the stuff, but I think you're right. Just get that get the thing below. And interestingly, the reason that they don't recommend small pressure cookers for canning is because all of the recipes that are written by the USDA and all the ones that have been tested by the agricultural extensions require the long heat-up time and the long cooling time of the larger canning things to get their recipes right. And they don't want to give you a recommendation. They could, but they don't want to give you a recommendation for how long to cook something in a smaller uh in a smaller thing.
+
+[46:16] Some people say, although I don't think this is the reason, that also the smaller ones they don't trust uh the accuracy of the pressure readings because the gauge doesn't go up high enough, but I think that's kind of a load of horse manure. The other thing is you need to uh make sure that if you are going to use the pressure cooker against their recommendations, that you open the lid and let it vent steam for a good 10 minutes before you allow the pressure to build up. That's gonna vent out all the air and get the uh pressure uh pressure uh working up. Um if you were to get it uh there's a it's not the same sauce, but I read a really interesting thing about uh someone who uh was using uh fermented uh pepper sauces. And you know what?
+
+[46:52] There's a lot to talk about with uh fermentation and canning, and uh maybe we should talk about that next time, huh? Sure. Because could because we're running out of time. Um get get all right. So I'll get back to it.
+
+[47:02] Uh I have a question question in uh that I'm really interested in that got tweeted in from Andrew about highly saturated fats. But since I'm probably gonna go on a 10-minute rant about highly saturated fats, uh I should probably leave that till next time. Same with uh the Harvard Lecture and Agar Agar Aggar Recipes. I'll get to you guys next week. I promise cooking Issues.
+
+[47:53] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[48:17] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us.
+
+[48:45] To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinary center dot com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Oh you dirty red. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:48] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Harriet Radio Network from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. And hey guys, you guys did a cover of uh Amos Milburn Victor Vicious Vodka? I didn't do a cover. Plexophonic did. No crap, really?
+
+[1:04] Plexiponic. Well, yeah, for those of you that follow this sort of thing, uh, you know, I'm a lover of the old kind of cocktail jazz phenomenon. Amos Milburn wrote a lot of good songs about uh drinking liquor, you know, a subject of which I'm fond. Uh, but we're no longer allowed to use his and it's not f for a long time a lot of our uh listeners thought it was fish is fish's vodka. In fact, not the case.
+
+[1:25] It's Vicious, Vicious Vodka. Oh, you dirty rat. But because we do not pay BMI ass cap uh fees, we can't use the original, but so that that covers awesome. I'm loving that. Yeah, it was a surprise in my inbox.
+
+[1:38] So is that uh so now we're cool? We can go back to uh I think we can I think we can use that. I mean, unless anybody wants to send in something else and one up that track. I don't know how you would, but I'm not sure. No, I mean that's it, that's perfect, beautiful.
+
+[1:48] Uh unfortunately today, not joined in the studio with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Her plane should be somewhere over Boston right now. She's flying back from Oktoberfest. Uh she was in Munich, and believe it or not, uh possibly the only human being in Munich right now who doesn't like beer. That crazy.
+
+[2:07] Like, why would you go to Oktoberfest? You don't like beer? She doesn't like any beer. I told her no. I was like, I was I said, Nastasha, look, you know, they're not gonna serve you champagne at Oktoberfest.
+
+[2:16] It's not gonna happen. You know what I mean? But luckily, we have uh Jack and Joe in the uh studio with us as usual. And today, uh crew from CNN who's uh shooting this, so we'll see we'll see what happens with that. By the way, you know what this means, Jack?
+
+[2:32] There was actually an opportunity to record on video for all time, Nastasha's vegan face. There was maybe that's why she's not here. You think so? You think she changed her flight or somehow somehow caused a delay on the on the airline so that she would not have to have her vegan face uh videoed? Maybe Joe can make a vegan face.
+
+[2:50] You think that well, Joe, do you have me? Joe, you don't uh you don't strike me as uh kind of hardcore as Nastasha is on the dislike of the vegan. No, I'm I I accept all people's dietary uh preferences. I'm not uh I'm not hater. Oh, isn't isn't that nice?
+
+[3:05] Isn't that nice? All right, listen, call your questions live to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, but let's get to some of the uh questions on uh the email. Okay.
+
+[3:16] Uh Kevin Scott wrote in and he enjoyed our uh suggestions on centrifuges. He says, Thank you very much for answering my questions about centrifuges a couple of shows back. Based on your advice, I've ordered a headache Rotanta 460R, which should be delivered in October. I'm pretty stoked and we'll post a bunch of stuff on my blogs as soon as I start experimenting and cooking with this new gear. Well, uh, Kevin, you decided to buy a pretty sweet little machine.
+
+[3:37] That's the same machine that uh I think that's the exact model perhaps that Wiley uses. Oh no, you have the R, the refrigerated. So you won upped Wiley Dufresne. Uh I think that also might be the one that uh Tony Canoyaro uses at uh 69 Colebrook Row. Good friend of ours, good friend of uh the program.
+
+[3:53] Uh so good call. I mean, expensive, a lot more expensive than my you know, buck you know, buck ninety nine centrifuges uh or uh not really. I've I have uh I've spent myself personally at least two hundred dollars on a centrifuge once, but that's about as high as I can go. Um anyway, good luck with it. I'm sure you'll love it.
+
+[4:11] It's a great machine. Uh got another question from Ed uh who wants to know about ice cream. What up, guys? Love the show. Kudos on having a uh well, there's a curse here.
+
+[4:22] Kick butt, kick butt radio show. Uh, and not ex not just because it's about cooking related stuff. Wanted to write in requesting some advice on stepping up to a large capacity ice cream freezer. I've been using the Lelo Musso 4080 for four years plus, and I can't recommend it enough for home ice cream enthusiasts. By the way, the uh the Lelo is that if the one that you've seen, it's kind of higher end.
+
+[4:42] It's uh around 600 bucks, I think. It's usually stainless steel, fits on a countertop, has its own refrigeration unit. My only gripe, obviously, with it is its batch times are around 30 minutes. Although I bet you could trick it out by really getting a cold base and not freezing quite as much. Batch time of 30 minutes, not really ideal.
+
+[4:58] You really want a batch time, you know, below about uh below 20, definitely. You know, remember the faster it freezes, the smaller the crystal size, smaller the crystal size, smoother the ice cream. Anyway, everyone apparently who has the Lello loves it. So you're not alone in your love of uh lellowness. In fact, I went and read uh a whole bunch of user review sites, and I couldn't find anyone who said anything negative about it.
+
+[5:17] Well, in the price range, it's clearly the best. Exception being good old fashioned uh rock salt and ice uh ice cream making, which is a pain in the butt, but makes some fantastic ice cream. That's that's how I do it at home when I'm not going all tech up on it. Anyway, um regarding the Lello. Uh thing takes a beating, freezes small batches quickly, and isn't too tough to clean up besides uh and besides the non-removable bowl, which is the bad part.
+
+[5:41] Anyway, uh I've been looking at used Carpagani freezers in the 40 to 50 quart batch range. Anything to watch out for when I'm buying it used and how old is too old. What the hell? You went from uh like you're going from a Lello machine to a 40 quart batch machine. Okay, so here's what I'm uh gathering.
+
+[6:00] You're opening a professional ice cream business. Now, the problem that okay, used equipment is great, except if you need to rely on it for your business. So, you know, if you're gonna get a 40 quart machine, you probably need that thing to run all of the time. Now, you might be able to find a company that bought one. Carpagani's a great brand, so I'm not, you know, don't worry about that.
+
+[6:24] But uh you you you have to make sure that the one that you're buying is I would not buy one that's really, really old because unless you have someone who's gonna refurbish that thing. If you have a professional or a Carpagani uh, you know, service person who will stand behind the machine and refurbish it, then and you know, of course, assuming it uses, you know, the normal, you know, modern refrigeration or it can be swapped to normal modern refrigeration gases, um, you know, it it could it's fine because you have someone who's gonna stand behind it and the parts are relatively available. But you have to make sure and check with other people who have the machine that the particular one that you're looking at isn't a dog, right? So, for instance, even the most loved ice cream, small ice cream machine that I've ever, you know, uh had pastry cooks talk about, which was the is a Carpegani Coldalite like Lab 100, that one has uh you know a critical expensive part that keeps breaking, the plastic uh faceplate where the draw the ice cream draw comes out of. And when that thing breaks, it's a lot of money to fix it.
+
+[7:24] Uh and you know, in a restaurant, you can stop it from breaking, but in the school, ours used to break all the time because students were brutal on it, because it's not the students, they don't care, and we're not allowed to yell yell at them, you know, uh too loudly when they do things that are rough to the machine. But uh that said, all of the parts for most of those Carpegani things are available, but it's good to ask other people who've used a particular machine to find out what parts fail, how much those parts cost to replace, and then uh making sure you can get it serviced. If all of those things seem fine, then a used machine can be a great deal. Uh and I poked around, and there are some people around who sell uh refurbished units that they'll stand behind. But uh if you need to rely on something for your business, I wouldn't uh go buy uh some because yes, you're gonna save a lot a lot of money.
+
+[8:11] The question is, can you afford to be wrong? So anytime you buy something on eBay, I mean I've gotten bitten in the butt before too. I try, you know, I I try to buy something that costs 10 grand new, and I'll buy it for you know a couple hundred bucks, and I'm hoping I can fix it. And sometimes I can, right? In fact, almost all the time I can, but sometimes you can't.
+
+[8:30] Uh, you know, you know, the biggest burn I ever got was I wanted a really beautiful inline refractometer, and the company straight up said they wouldn't support it anymore. So, you know, I would definitely not buy anything used if the company doesn't support anymore that has specialized parts, for instance, electronics boards. Because then if those things go bad, you need to buy a whole nother unit to swap out the parts in it, and can be it can be difficult. Um that said, you can get uh a great great deal. So uh it's all up to you.
+
+[8:57] It's very it's very hard to make a recommendation on this. Anyway, uh another question. Also, I've been starting to wrap my head around and experiment with hydrocolloids in my recipes. Uh lowering my egg content and adding lambda carragaen and locust bean gum. Can I disperse my hydrocolloids in a regular blender?
+
+[9:12] Any other particular hydrocolloids that you would recommend? Uh, one tip of advice I can give fried chicken flavored ice cream may get you punched in the face by one of your friends. You one of your friends literally punched you in the face when you made them the fried chicken ice cream? What did you tell them what they punched you in the face? Jack, that seems extreme, right?
+
+[9:30] Fried chicken ice cream seems extreme. Well, I mean, but that doesn't seem punchworthy. Right? No. I mean, you know, you know, I mean, like what food thing would cause you to punch somebody in the face?
+
+[9:43] That would have to be much more rancid than that. Yeah, I mean, I I mean I can I can think of one, okay, say, for instance, check this out. This was this this is punchworthy, right? So you take a rotary evaporator, which is of course the vacuum uh still that I use to do my distillation, and you can um literally deodorize without sterilizing, by the way, you can deodorize the most foul, rank, disgusting, putrid thing you could think of. Just totally rip all the aroma off of it, right?
+
+[10:12] Then turn that to turn whatever it is, your choice into an ice cream, right? And then you serve them the ice cream, and they won't know that it's some vile, rancid, putrid thing, and then you give them the distilled essence of vile. Now that you should get punched in the face for. Right? I mean that, you know, punch me.
+
+[10:31] Because, because you know, I I should probably be thrown in jail for that. That's awful. You know what I mean? Fried chicken ice cream, maybe the guy doesn't like it, but you know what, you gotta watch out. Your friends are your friends are too violent.
+
+[10:42] Your friends, too violent. Uh, anyway, um, on the carrageenins. Now, uh, carrageenins are a class of seaweed-based hydrocolloids, polysaccharides, and uh they have they're used quite often in ice cream because uh they react with milk, they have a synergistic reaction with milk. And what that means is you can use a very small amount of carrageenins to um enhance your ice cream. Now, there's three basic styles of carrageenin out there.
+
+[11:09] There's kappa carrageenin, which is brittle, uh, and you wouldn't you wouldn't want to use kappa carrageenin because you're not looking for something brittle. It's more that's more sets like more like an agar gel. In fact, it's very, very closely related to agar, although it's heating uh you know, just you know, properties are different. Iota carrageenin is a great one. Well, you might mean what am I saying?
+
+[11:29] Of course they use kappa carrageen. They use caparin all the time. You wouldn't want to use a lot of it. You're not trying to gel it hard. Uh iota caragenin is interesting because uh it will reform a gel after it's set and been sheared.
+
+[11:40] It's also very, very soft. So a mixture of kappa and iota are great for things like uh fake tofu set flavors or puddings, right? Great. Uh lambda is the third one, it doesn't actually gel, but it provides a creamy kind of mouthfeel. So if you're want to just increase increase or make more creamy the mouthfeel of the melted product, lambda is gonna be fine.
+
+[12:03] It'll also make it a little thicker, which will probably slow the meltdown characteristics of the ice cream. Typically, you include some other carrageenans in it, like uh iota or kappa, and in fact, carrageenins are standardized based on the application. So you could probably find a blend of carrageenins from a manufacturer, CP Kelco is the one that I usually deal with because they have a very wide range of it that's specifically blended for a certain set of ice cream properties. Now, uh carragenins in ice cream are typically there to modify the crystal properties to stop it from recrystallizing and have the crystals get big over time and to make it smoother and to prevent uh meltdown. The secondary thing that you add to it, like locust bean gum or guar gum, is usually there to prevent within the gel structure of the carrageenin to prevent the water or the whey from the water from leaching back out and uh ruining the texture of the ice cream.
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+[12:54] It's called whey off, you know, with a with a not way like you know Uno Botella whey, way like W like whey protein and milk. Anyway, um so that's why they usually use two gum systems. They used to use guar a lot, but as I've said on the show many times, guar is now extremely expensive because the fracking industry wants so much guar. So fracking is uh, you know, where you inject high pressure liquid into rocks to shatter them so that you can get more stuff out like petroleum. And guar has this cool property that it reacts with borax, right?
+
+[13:24] Uh and when you react it with borax, it forms a gel, but the gel is pH dependent. Now you can't use this for food because you're not allowed to use borax and food anymore, even though it used to be used for things like caviar and whatnot. Anyway, uh, so it makes this gel. Here's why you want to do this, right? So when you're fracking, this has nothing to do with food, don't worry about it.
+
+[13:41] When you're fracking, what you want to do is put something like uh silica sand, which is called the propine, and that's going to keep the when you when you bust open a crack in the rock when you frack it, you need to keep that frack fracking crack open so that when the liquids come up, right, you can get them out. So you have to pump into the high pressure fracking uh fluid this uh like like grains of sand almost or silicates, but you need to carry them, and so you need something that's thick. And so they use guar that's been interacted with borax so that it will uh be a thick gel that they can pump it under high pressures. They then change the pH when they're done, and the guar melts away to a liquid. That's why they use so much guar when they're when they're fracking around.
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+[14:20] Do you know that one, Jack? I had no idea. There you go. And uh Jack, of course, and apparently the network in general, anti-fracking. Yeah, we can have that discussion later, but anti-fracking.
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+[14:30] Well, you know. Say for the most part, you know. Well, you have a like a giant no-frack sticker on the window as you walk in, so I'm assuming you're, you know, anti-fracking. Most of uh most of the network is anti-fracking. You do we actually have a pro-fracking comp.
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+[14:42] I mean, I'm anti-fracking. I don't even know anything about the environmental issues, but I want my guar to be cheaper. So that's your piece. Yeah, I'm uh I'm the I'm the ice cream loving uh anti-fracker. You should leave that charge.
+
+[14:54] Well, because you know guar, uh guar and locus bean gum are extremely closely related. But guar has the cool property that when it's mixed with locust, uh when it's mixed with um uh gel-an gum, low acyl gel an gum, which is the one I use, forms an ice cream that both can be lit on fire, which is awesome. Uh, but also uh not not because it's combustible, not big, but because you know it it uh it it's a fluid gel, so it won't melt down. It's it's great brûle label ice cream. And and you know, I know gel and every chef does uh an ice cream that you can brute with uh Kelko gel F.
+
+[15:26] But the cool thing about the guar is when you add guar, it also gets a stretchy snappy kind of a characteristic, which is characteristic of Selepton Derma, the Turkish uh orchid ice cream, which you know, four or five years ago everyone was trying to duplicate. Anyways, uh so there you go, guar. But really cheap guar, uh really tastes terrible. It's beanie, it tastes like uh kind of like uh black-eyed pea flour, which I love black-eyed peas, but not the flour. Anyway, uh okay.
+
+[15:50] Uh so yeah, I would try other things like try locust bean gum, try doing a fluid gel, try adding a little bit of gel in. Small amounts of gel-an will really, really, really increase uh the holding time, i.e. decrease the meltdown of your ice cream, and it makes them absurdly smooth. Just look up Calco Gel Flo ACL gel an uh uh fluid gels, how to make a fluid gel with it. They're ridiculous, ridiculously smooth, the smoothest ice creams I've ever made.
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+[16:16] The problem is add too many stabilizers and you decrease the flavor release. So a lot of people think gelato, for instance, is this all natural lovey dovey, no blah blah blah stuff. In fact, it's the most highly stabilized stuff in the world, which is why it has that texture, and which is why they have to add so much freaking flavor to gelato, because otherwise uh the flavor would be masked. Okay. What do you think, Jack?
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+[16:37] Is that a good answer? Yeah, definitely. Let's take a break. Oh, okay. Going to our first commercial break.
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+[16:41] Call your questions to 7184972128 cooking issues. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I wish I were twins. For us to idolize you each time I face you with two hearts twice as true. What couldn't full lips do when four is you say that I'm yours, da-da-da.
+
+[17:07] I wish that I would twins. You grip big baby kins, so I could love you twice as much as I do. I wish that I would twins you good big baby kin. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have four loving arms to embrace you.
+
+[18:01] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com.
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+[18:30] Is that you guys with the music? Yeah, you know. Is that like ham what is that? Like some sort of hammer dulcimer thing? What is that?
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+[18:35] Dramatic flourishes. We didn't make it. That was a friend of mine. Really? Or is in Kansas City?
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+[18:39] Yeah. I'm just not used to hearing Dorothy talk with the with the kind of you know inspirational stuff behind her. Like that. Crazy. Nice.
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+[18:47] Alright. So uh it you had a Twitter question coming in? We do have a Twitter question. So this one's coming from C Schneider, it seems. I don't know how to pronounce that.
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+[18:55] Prime Rib cooked in circulator. Suggested time temperature. If cooked chills, should I reheat from room temp or tight from fridge? Alright, so here's the thing. Uh here's the issue.
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+[19:06] The question is, how are you gonna serve this thing? I think I probably have mentioned this on air. I mentioned it in every sous vide low temp class that I ever do. Uh the last thing on earth, you want to do is cook an entire prime rib low temp and then just do a flash sear on the outside and carve it and serve it because you have one huge field of pink meat all all the way across. I'm sure I've mentioned this before on the air.
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+[19:28] I ruined uh Christmas once at uh at my mom's house by doing that. I mean it ruined I mean in my family though, if you ruin the prime rib, you ruin Christmas. And it was perfectly cooked all the way across, but nobody wants a perfect field of uh one texture of meat all the way across. So it you can do the whole prime rib low temp if you're going to slice it into steaks and then uh and then sear them off because you have crust on each side, and then it's beautiful. And in fact, that's the way I cook rib steaks.
+
+[19:58] So for ribsteaks, I mean, and I think I've given it before, but for just a rib steak, what I would do is uh optionally sear it beforehand, uh put it in a Ziploc bag with uh a little bit of melted butter, circulate it at fifty either 55 Celsius or 55.2 Celsius for you know a couple of hours, drop the temperature to 50 Celsius for a half hour to 40 minutes, right? Don't hold it too long because I can't recommend as a safe, you know, holding temperature 50. Uh pull it out of the bag and put it onto something hotter, hotter than you know, hot the hottest thing you can find. Typically the hottest thing you can find in a house, unless you have a really butt-kicking grill or a deep fryer or a smoking hot cast iron pan, typically the hottest thing you have is not hot enough. So I'm talking hot, really hot to put a fast sear without overcooking it.
+
+[20:46] And the reason you drop the temperature down to 50 is so that you can get that good sear. So that's a steak. Now, let's assume you're talking about a roast. What you should really do is use a technique I call uh low temperature for insurance. And what I mean by insurance is cooking insurance.
+
+[21:01] So uh you might want to put an initial sear on the outside of the meat just to kill bacteria and start flavor development. Um circulate it. You could do it in a Ziploc bag, you could circulate oil if you have one of the old school uh fryers, and do the entire rib, the rip the rib roast to 55, 55, 2. And probe test it or use one of the programs like Sous vide toolbox that you can get on the internet to figure out how long it's going to take to get it up to temperature and give it a little bit longer than that so it's cooked all the way through. Now the entire rib is cooked all the way through.
+
+[21:34] Okay? That's why I call it now you don't have to worry anymore about the inside of the rib. Because when you're cooking a rib in a traditional way, you have two different problems you're working with. You're working with getting a good crust on the outside, and you're working with making sure that the inside is cooked, but not overcooked. So it's two separate problems.
+
+[21:54] So by doing the initial cook step, the low temperature step, you have gotten rid of that first problem. You know the inside of the meat is cooked. Now all you need to do is worry about the crust. Take it out of the bag. You can refrigerate it all the way down if you want to and cook it on a later day.
+
+[22:08] Just make sure it stays sealed in whatever you want. You don't want a lot of oxygen touching the already cooked uh fat and meat. Okay. Now you could also just drop the temperature uh or by pulling the roast out and letting it sit for an hour or so before you do your final roast off in the in the oven or you know, any one of these things. But once you let it cool down somewhat, now crank your oven so it's screaming hot and just put the roast in, and now all you're worried about is developing a delicious brown, crunchy crust with a little bit of the overcooked stuff on the outside that we all actually love.
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+[22:44] You know, as much as I talk about low temperature cooking and getting all the cooking stuff right, the best part of a hammer or a roast is that like kind of overcooked, crackling fat stuff around the outside. Let's let's be honest. Uh, as long as there's a whole bunch of juicy, delicious stuff on the inside as well. And so you know, that technique is low temperature for an insurance where you've ensure that you've cooked the inside properly, but then uh make sure that you get a nice delicious crust on the outside is the technique that uh I'd use. Did that answer the question, Jack?
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+[23:13] I think I answered the question. I think more than enough, yeah. Yeah? Definitely. All right.
+
+[23:17] Uh got a question in from uh Andrew. I'm gonna I'm gonna mispronounce your name, Andrew. Andrew Janjigjan. Janjijan. Janjajan?
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+[23:27] That's not it. Really? Well, you come here and look at it at the next break. You tell me I got it right. And Andrew, you write in, tell me how to pronounce.
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+[23:33] You know what? You know who you know who one of my favorites is writes in all the time? Rob Trepas. You know why? Because he knows I can't pronounce anything properly, and he put Trepas pronunciation, so now I see his name and I just think Traypa's.
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+[23:45] See? Nice. See? Just me or TreyPaz sounds like something that could be delicious. Well, it does because it sounds like it does.
+
+[23:53] But it reminds me of creepies. Remember creepas? They're those like uh really kind of like like really saturated color, oily crayon suckers. Oh but imagine if they were delicious and edible, that would be Trepas. Right?
+
+[24:07] Yeah. Yeah. Crepas to Trapas. Anyway, uh, so Andrew, we'll just call him Andrew. His Twitter handle is at wordloaf, which I can pronounce.
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+[24:16] Uh has a question for us that I was supposed to get to last week. Why are highly saturated fats better for frying slash crispness? Is it just better stability slash smoke point or something more? Thanks. Okay, I love this question.
+
+[24:29] I love it because I don't think you can say that there's any one fat that is the best fat for frying. There's okay, so look. High okay, so saturated fats are fats that uh that where all of the carbons and the fatty acid are uh fully saturated fats, or ones where all of the carbons are joined by single bonds. An unsaturated fatty acid is one where there's double bonds in the carbons. And you know, a monounsaturated means one double bond, and polyunsaturated means multiple double bonds.
+
+[24:59] Now it's the saturated fats, right, are the more plastic more plastic, i.e. solid fats, because the the more saturated something is, uh the higher the melting point, right? For a given length of fatty acid, right? Because fatty acid chains are measured by how many carbons long they are, and then after that, by how many bond double bonds they have in it, and then after that by where in the chain the double bonds are. Okay.
+
+[25:23] So it is true uh that uh the saturated ones have a higher melting point, and they're the solid fats. And the double bonds in unsaturated fats are much more reactive to oxygen, and it's oxidative breakdown that causes rancidity uh and all sorts of other you know issues that make oil taste bad. So, you know, in a world where you're going to abuse your fat, right, theoretically, saturated fats are going to last longer. It doesn't always work out that way, though, right? What I really want, what I really focus on when I'm choosing a fat is not the smoke point really, although it's important to have it, you know, be the smoke point to be high enough that it's going to break down.
+
+[26:05] It's not even how long the fat is going to last, although again, crucially important from an economic standpoint and making sure you can at least make it through tonight's uh frying. The crucial thing you need to first decide is what am I frying and how am I eating it? Let me give you an example. Uh donuts, when they're hot, always taste good, right? I mean, I've said this many times on the show.
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+[26:27] Uh, like any any fool monkey can make a hot donut that tastes good, right? Also, yeast-raised donuts are much easier to make taste good than a cake donut. And the reason is that it has to do with oil absorption. So a cake donut absorbs much more oil from the fryer than uh yeast uh raised donut does. And so the quality of the oil makes a big difference.
+
+[26:53] Now, hot donuts, like most hot fried things, as long as the oil is of good quality, right, uh, are delicious. Let's be honest. Frying is God's cooking technique, okay? But um as they cool, right? If you fry in a liquid fat with a donut, it's gonna taste greasy.
+
+[27:12] And as you eat it, you'll get that greasy feeling on your mouth. What you want in a cold donut is for the oil to solidify for it to be a fat. So when you're frying donuts, you use solid fats, right? Now, when you're frying a potato chip, you need a liquid fat because what you don't want is the waxy feeling of a solid fat when you crunch on a potato chip. So, no matter how stable a solid fat is, if you're frying a potato chip, which is meant to be eaten cold, you use a liquid fat, right?
+
+[27:45] So, whether a fat is better or worse depends on the application. I'll give you an example of how hardcore this is. I don't know whether I've ever spoken about this on the air before. If I you know, if I have just to turn down, you know, whatever, just stop listening. But listen, uh if you remember wow, which is OLESCRA that you know came out, I don't know, about 20 years ago or something like that.
+
+[28:04] Um it was being licensed by the Frito Lake Corporation, and they were putting it into potato chips. Now, a Lestra is a fat that you can't digest, right? It's modified fat that you can't digest. And they can literally turn any any fat uh into OLESTRA. They could modify it such that you can no longer digest it.
+
+[28:21] Now, if you use l uh a liquid-based olestra, right? So it's so it's uh unsaturated, it's you know, it's a liquid at room temperature or liquid at body temperature, actually, more importantly. And here's where it's gonna get gross. I'm sorry, people, but if you eat a lot of olestra that is liquid at body temperature, to put it politely, it runs straight through you and you can't stop it. Hopefully you understand what I'm talking about so I don't have to get more graphic with you.
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+[28:48] Uh so the solution, right, and because of that, OLEST got a really bad name and nobody wanted to eat it, and the product ended up dying, right? Uh, but the solution to that was they used a uh uh fat that had a very high solid fat index, SFI, which is how you rate fats, solid fat index or solid fat content. They had one that raised a very high SFI at body temperature. Now, the downside of that is that the potato chips that you made with it were extremely waxy, so that when you ate them, they had a waxy mouthfeel. It was such a problem that they built special impingement ovens that would blow air down on the potato chips as they were coming out of the line, and that would blow the surface coating of Olestra off of the top of the potato chip so it wouldn't have a waxy mouthfeel.
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+[29:35] So everyone who complained about the Olestra chips that they could taste the Olestra, it's not that you could taste the Olestra, it's that you don't like potato chips cooked in a solid fat. Okay? So uh so anyway, so that's that. And I've complained on the air many times uh about cooking oils uh and the fact that um what you buy in the supermarket is is basically just a refined, bleached, deodorized fat. And that that's basically that's as that's how they, you know, that's how it's termed in the biz refined, bleached, deodorized fat.
+
+[30:06] Uh and they're not that tweaked out. So if you buy a liquid like that in the supermarket, they tend to be poor, you know, fairly bad frying oils because they're not that protected against oxidation. Uh and they're just they they break down fair fairly quickly, no matter what the source is on those liquid fats. The fats that I use to fry in are super tweaked out. So a lot of them are lightly hydrogenated, which means that they only take the double bonds out of the uh most reactive uh species.
+
+[30:37] So as you're hydrogenating something, you can actually uh hydrogenate only the most reactive species and therefore increase the oxidative stability of the rest of the oil. They also have uh all sorts of uh uh you know awesome stuff like antioxidants added to them, and consequently, commercial fry oil isn't like two times better. It's like ten times better from a stability perspective than the crap that you're buying in the supermarket. Another thing that people don't think about the freshest, and this has nothing to do with the question, but I just want to say it. The freshest uh oil isn't the best oil.
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+[31:08] You've all noticed that there's a sweet spot in frying. And the reason is is as you're frying something, uh a layer of steam forms around your food, and and there's a water, uh there's a and also your food has a lot of water in it. And oil and water, as you all know, don't like to mix, and so you actually don't get that good a heat conduction with extremely fresh oil into food. Once the oil starts breaking down a little bit, then the oil can uh it forms its own emulsifiers and can really stick, really get in there and provide a lot more heat to the food. So oil that's been used a little bit, and you know, old school cooks know this, is actually a much better, more effective frying medium, faster transferring heat energy to your food than brand new oil.
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+[31:53] And so real hardcore commercial people know exactly where that sweet spot is, and they adjust the systems, let's say in a potato chip line, so that the potato chips absorb, which absorb a lot of oil, something like 50% of the weight is you know, oil. As they go through the fryer, they're absorbing just the right amount of oil so that they're adding fresh oil all the time and never have to drain it, and the oil is always staying in the sweet spot. How awesome is that. Uh anyway, let's take one more commercial break. Call your questions to 7184972128.
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+[32:23] That's 7184972128. Every night listening to Russian Bible. Just a plaintiff little tune when baby starts to cry. Rock goodbye. My baby.
+
+[32:50] Somewhere that maybe a land that's free for you and me and a Russian lullaby. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritage radio network.org today.
+
+[33:19] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. We have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Excellent. I was calling with a question about iced coffee. Okay.
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+[33:36] And just brewing coffee and then putting it over ice afterwards. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, look, I have to say, like, I'm not uh I haven't done a lot of personal experimenting with uh cold brew techniques, but uh I do know from um you know a lot I brewing kinetics are really complicated and interesting.
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+[34:00] And so a couple of things happen. When you're extracting at a higher temperature, you shift uh the the different proportions of different things that you're leaching out of the coffee. Okay. So the hotter uh and and if you think about espresso, let's just take espresso. It's only think about espresso because that's something I know a lot about.
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+[34:21] The even minor temperature shifts in something like espresso can radically change uh how the espresso tastes. So we you know, anyone who makes a lot of espresso knows that if your temperature is too cold, you get a sour shot because of what's getting extracted out of it. If it's too hot, you get a bitter uh taste, what's extracted out. Um the temperature, then the temperature also radically changes how things are infused in in general, like percolation rates. Everything is changed by temperature.
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+[34:50] Um, yeah, so you're definitely extracting different ratios of things when you're doing it hot versus cold. Also, uh the what you do extract from coffee isn't uh uh stable. So when it's extracted at higher temperatures, the coffee will go through different uh kind of uh, I don't know how you'd put it, like auto hydrolysis or whatever, of the of the of the flavor components, and it will change differently from one that had never been heated. That's what I suspect. And based on discussions I've had with you, you know, coffee experts like Andrea Ily and stuff like that.
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+[35:23] This is his words, not mine. So uh, and there are plenty of people who love the cold brew coffee and plenty of people that don't, you know. Uh and you know, when I make an iced coffee, I make iced coffee with I don't drink it first of all. My wife drinks it every day. I like espresso, that's what I drink.
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+[35:40] I'm trying to try to get into loving uh other types of coffee, but but I'm I'm uh I'm you know I'm weird, I'm a weird guy. So uh but I love espresso, but when I make iced coffee, I make it from espresso. And that's to my wife's taste. But and there's no right or wrong here, but they definitely are different. Okay, thanks a lot.
+
+[35:56] Hey, no problem. Um, got a question from last week I should address. Uh Benjamin Petrazic writes in uh dear cooking issues. In your Harvard lecture, you say that the home chef should get comfortable with agar agar. Any starter recipes, either for uh dish or for a drink.
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+[36:15] Okay, so if you're using agar is another seaweed powder, I love it because you can get it in any grocery store. Buy the powdered agar, don't buy the uh flake stuff. The flake stuff's not as predictable. Uh and just don't don't buy it. Buy the powder stuff.
+
+[36:27] Uh it's just as natural, it's not any more, you know, more or less natural. Get the powdered agar. Also get yourself a decent scale, one that can do tenths of a gram because you're gonna some of the agar recipes you're gonna be using uh were are gonna go down that low. So um agar starts gelling in about the 0.2% range. So that's uh two grams per kilo, and you use agar all the way up to about uh you know 0.8 or 0.9, all the way sometimes up to 1% by weight.
+
+[36:57] So that's the range you're gonna use. Uh agar, you want to disperse agar, and remember, whenever you're using a hydrocolloid or anything, you know, that that has that has that is a large molecule, you want to disperse it, i.e. get them all separated so that they don't glom together before you try to hydrate it. So agar you put into cold liquid, you disperse it with a whisk or whatever, then you heat it up, you heat it up to the boil, and when it boils, simmer it for a couple of minutes, and then you can let the temperature drop. Now the the main things you can do with it are you can set a gel, and it's a cool gel because uh it can be reheated all the way up to about 70, 75 Celsius before it starts to break down again.
+
+[37:34] So that's pretty awesome. Two, you can blend uh uh agar gels, and I would use about a 0.8, you know, eight eight grams in a liter, eight grams in a kilo, point eight percent fluid gel. You set the gel and you blend it in a blender and it forms a puree. So you could take any liquid you want and form a puree that you can plate out into, you know, that looks awesome. It looks like mashed potato on the plate, but when you eat it, it goes to a sauce, which is fantastic.
+
+[37:58] That same fluid gel, you can make an orange juice fluid gel or uh a lemon juice even fluid gel, and then use that to reinforce a whipped cream, which is awesome. Or uh if you use a very small amount with something like lime juice or lemon juice, like 0.2 to you know, two grams in a kilo. Uh that one when you set that gel, you can use for clarification. So you take your juice, you set it, you can actually boil the agar in water and temper in the juice if you don't want to heat the juice, as long as the numbers balance out right. Set it, break it with a risk uh whisk, put it into uh like a uh cloth napkin that you tie with string, throw it in a salad spinner, hit the salad spinner a bunch.
+
+[38:38] That's like you know, poor man's centerfuge, and you'll get clear, clarified liquid out. So that's just a couple of the things you can do with agar. You can drop, you can make little agar balls like you would alginate balls, but they're solid by dropping them into cold oil, which is a technique I don't know, pioneered by I guess Sam Mason, eight bajillion years ago. But uh agar is just fantastic. It works with almost everything.
+
+[38:57] Agar has weird interactions with gelatin and stocks, so be careful of that. And agar can have weird interactions with things like cassis because of the high tannin levels in it. But uh agar is just fantastic. And if you have any more specific questions on recipes, uh give me a holler. One more tweet before the show wraps up.
+
+[39:15] Um looking for a ratio for fluid gel and cream to disperse out of ISI. Oh, all right. Well, that follows up on that. So um what you want is it really depends. So if you do just a straight fluid gel, uh agar fluid gel or or a gel and fluid gel, and you're doing about, let's say, a 0.8% fluid gel, i.e.
+
+[39:36] 0.8% agar by weight, uh, or eight grams in a kilo. Uh a straight fluid gel is gonna kind of look like weird alien slime when it comes out of an ISI. And whenever you're putting uh a fluid gel in the ISI, don't forget to put your finger over the tip and s and flick your hand down like you are trying to get the last bit of shampoo out of a bottle because the fluid gel is gonna be a gel until you put force on it, and then you can shoot it down to the bottom of the bottle and dispense it. So uh I so then I like to add it like about 50% cream usually uh or thereabouts. It depends on the punchiness of the flavor you want, but you just get an incredibly dense, uh dense uh fluid gel out of it.
+
+[40:15] Um okay, so you're telling me, Jack, that I'm running out of time. So here here's what I'm gonna say. I had a question in also on fry oil on disposal, and this Japanese uh fry oil disposal thing called katamero tempuru. And I mean you know, tempuru, I guess meaning from frying like temper. But anyway, I know nothing about it.
+
+[40:34] The question was from uh Mark Barter, and so what I'm gonna do, Mark, is look that sucker up and then report back to you next week. Uh I also got a question, two questions in from Joel Gargano uh about which vacuum machine uh he's gonna buy. And he narrowed it down to two, the Henkelman and the Samic. I'm gonna talk to him about also about cutting boards next week, uh, because I have a lot to say about vacuum machines and how to pick a good vacuum machine, and also a lot to say about cutting boards, because as usual I have too much to say about this stuff, and that's why Jack tells me I run out of time. But I got a tweet in that I just have to answer this week, Jack, if you'll let me on the way out.
+
+[41:10] Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. I love apples, cherries, and peaches. Who doesn't? But ever since I was a kid, these fruits ca fruits cause my mouth and throat to itch. I figured out that I suffer from oral allergy syndrome, which is an allergy to certain proteins and fruit, particularly in the skin.
+
+[41:25] Peeling the fruit solves the problem, as does cooking the fruit to denature the proteins. I love eating these fruits fresh, and peeling things like cherries is a huge pain. Do you have any suggestions on how to denature these proteins without actually cooking the fruit? Thanks for any advice. Huge fan of the show, Greg.
+
+[41:41] Greg, I feel you. I feel you. When I was thirty thirty or thirty-one, I suddenly developed an allergy to cherries that causes my throat to close uh when I eat them in large quantities and and and and causes itchiness. Certain apples also cause this to be. Thankfully, it hasn't happened with peaches yet.
+
+[41:59] Um First of all, I don't know if you know this, but uh different apple varieties have different widely different levels of the allergens in them that cause your throat to itch. So certain apples you might be okay with and others you don't, and there's a scientific paper that was never written, you know, right Susan Brown up at Cornell, who's doing the research, they know which varieties are more allergenic than the others, but I haven't been able to find public uh you know research on it, publicly available research on it anywhere. Uh but uh fresh cherries, which I can no longer eat, I think are kind of you know, uh possibly the greatest fruit in the world. I love them. Uh and I can't eat them, and to me, cooked cherries are not even cherries, it's something else.
+
+[42:41] It's like cherry pie filling or something. There's nothing like a fresh cherry, and I can't have them anymore. Um yeah, I I do not know any way, but anyone, anyone out there who has any solution to this problem, some sort of anything that can bind to these proteins so that Greg can have the stone fruits and I can have my cherries again. Let us know. Cooking issues.
+
+[43:11] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[43:35] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Oh you dred.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:43] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues 100th episode, live on the Heritage Radio Network. Patrick Martin's found in the network, happy anniversary, Dave and Nastasia. Michael Harlan to Rakel, Food Scene Heritage Radio Network.org. Mr. Jonathan Sawyer, the Greenhouse Tavern, Cleveland, Ohio.
+
+[1:09] Happy anniversary. We got uh we got Joe and Jack in the booth and Nastasia the Hammer Lopez here! As well as Aaron from the Heritage Radio Network's development team. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
+
+[1:19] Thank you very much. Happy anniversary. We're so proud of you. You're our number one rated show with Oslin to read all these amazing comments from people all around the world being like you are their inspiration, and we're honored to have you in our humble little shipping container, Dave in Niscalcia. It is in fact a shipping container's like shut up and pour the proseco.
+
+[1:38] It's not usually this late in the day when I happen to have a ship. You made me wait till noon. What's wrong with you? Right? Were you drinking all day at Oktoberfest when you were there?
+
+[1:49] Yes. Yeah, she actually, you were thank you. You were at Oktoberfest last week during the show, right? Or flying back. You were encountering turbulence over Nova Scotia as we were having our uh our show, right?
+
+[1:59] Ultimate Aryan couple going back to Germany. I'm not Aryan. What the hell? She's like half Mexican, half Ukrainian. How do you get Aryan out of that?
+
+[2:09] Wow. I'm gonna take my beautiful eyes. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers.
+
+[2:16] Cheers. Uh uh. Sobering note today. Uh there was a woman over the weekend, 18-year-old uh in England, who was served liquid nitrogen at a bar in a glass. Uh I think that's what happened.
+
+[2:29] There, you know, it's not totally in yet. Uh, and she lost uh a good portion of her sum stomach. It was taken out at the hospital because she either consumed actual liquid nitrogen or something that was so hyper frozen with liquid nitrogen uh that it caused uh irreparable damage to the lining of her stomach. Now, um I've I've been getting a lot of uh tweet action on this, and a lot of people ask me about it. And uh the fact of the matter is is it is exactly akin to a cook taking a uh chicken McNugget out of a deep fryer with a ladle and serving the chicken McNugget with the ladle full of uh deep fry oil.
+
+[3:06] Uh clearly not a good thing. It's a horrible tragedy that this has happened, but it's completely irresponsible practice and has nothing at all to do with liquid nitrogen. I've used liquid nitrogen daily for years. Uh, you know, and and dealt with um customers. We've had, you know, both at the French culinary and at Booker Index.
+
+[3:28] Everyone knows we never ever, ever, ever serve actual liquid cryogens to people, and we never serve uh foods or drinks that are so chilled that they could cause uh frostbite or any sort of damage on uh on consumption. And it's actually not that difficult. If you're if you're a practitioner, it's not that difficult to um judge whether something has gotten that cold or not. For instance, if your cocktail has become a rock solid, this sucker is too cold to deal with and may cause damage. If you see liquid nitrogen floating around on the surface of your cocktail, there are issues and you should not serve it.
+
+[4:08] It is it it would be clear to any uh you know well-trained novice practitioner of uh uh you know liquid nitrogen use, uh, what to do and what not to do. And it's horrible that this has happened, uh, but we hear all sorts of crazy things. I've someone sent me a BBC uh report saying that technology has no place uh in bars and in kitchens. Buddies, the knife is a piece of technology or was back in the day. The blender is a piece of technology or was back in the day.
+
+[4:37] Deep fryers are dangerous. The trick is knowing what you're doing and uh you know, you know, having some common sense and respect for the safety of your customers. You know, liquid nitrogen can be used for a bunch of gimmick BS in the bar, or it can be used hopefully as we use it, which is to good effect to get the best freshest infusions, for instance, by doing liquid nitrogen muddling at the bar or by chilling glasses, where it's clearly technically the most superior way to do it and has nothing to do with uh gimmicry. So that's my little Happy Anniversary And then a related question. Got a tweet in from Ian Benz who saw the uh demonstration we did at the Star Chef's ICC.
+
+[5:17] And uh he's like, how well, how do you get this liquid nitrogen? First of all, I would go ahead and read the safety uh the safety information. It's on Cooking Issues blog. It's formatted weirdly now. We're working on it, I know, uh, but the information is still there.
+
+[5:29] Uh secondly, you get it from a welding supply shop. The cheapest way to get it is in units of 160, 180, or 240 liters in large doers. Those doers cost two thousand dollars. Uh I've purchased them used for a thousand, but uh you can also rent one for thirty-five dollars a month, and we end up paying in those large quantities roughly uh 70 cents a liter once everything's said and done, delivered. Uh it's much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much cheaper than buying smaller quantities like 35 or 40 or 50 liters at a time, where they really rake you over the coals for the uh for the uh you know fact of giving you a smaller amount.
+
+[6:05] So any welding supply shop, you give them a $2,000 deposit, they drop off a doer, do your safety thing. Don't buy the dumb hose that they want to sell send you uh or sell you to get the liquid nitrogen off. Uh just make something out of copper. I have all of the parts on the cooking issues website. All right, that's the positive note about liquid nitrogen for us.
+
+[6:22] Very nice. Anyway, it is um one of a kind in all the world. It's an honor to have you. We'll we'll leave you to be brilliant, but happy anniversary. Thank you so much.
+
+[6:32] Cheers. Cheers. Are you did you give Jack and Joe some prosecco or did you totally chef that? No. Holy crap.
+
+[6:41] Holy crap. That's bad, right? Terrible. Terrible. Call in your questions live to 718497-2128.
+
+[6:49] That's 718497-2128. Uh uh, those of you will notice that the um we did not have our wonderful cover of Vicious Vicious Vodka today, and that is because it turns out the law sucks. Is that right, Jack? I would agree with that. The law does suck.
+
+[7:05] Yeah, uh, because I love that cover. You know, we're just we're we're playing it super safe right now. We're gonna look into our uh publishing rights here and get our T's crossed and I's got it. Did I mention that Amos Milburn is dead? I don't know that any does anyone I mean, like the rights are from when like when when can we just use that stuff legit?
+
+[7:22] That's just from the 40s. Is it possible that it was run out and that no one re-upped it? 100 years. Um check in with the lawyer. Oh my gracious.
+
+[7:30] I just want my vicious vodka cover. I don't even want the original anymore. I want the cover now. All right. All right.
+
+[7:38] Okay. Question from last week I did not answer from Joel Gargano regarding vacuum machines and cutting boards. Yo, Joel from New Haven again. Hey, New Haven, sweet, right? Nastasha's sister's up in New Haven now at the Yale.
+
+[7:48] Hey, you know, Yale got like nuked in in the uh recent uh US News crap on them, crap on US News and we'll put crap on them people. Unless you work for them out there, in which case I love you. Okay. Uh looking into some new equipment. Need a workhorse of a vacuum sealer for my kitchen.
+
+[8:02] I've narrowed it down to the Henkelman Boxer 52, which is a tabletop uh model made by Henkleman. Or the Samic SV 410S. Uh double steel bar uh in a vacuum machines plus, but not necessary. Both these units have it, but I would like a large chamber to perform aeration techniques, uh, like aeration of chocolate, uh uh to fit like fitting a fish tub would be good in it. Um I also like the idea of the Vac Norm external kit on the Samic to seal up hotel pants of food rather than bagging it.
+
+[8:29] I hold things over a few days normally in bags and it would save a cost for sure. What do you think? I'll take your opinion on Best Bang for my bucks under six grand uh in terms of size and durability. Feel free to give me what you'd buy. Uh lastly, uh any kind of non wood cutting boards.
+
+[8:44] I'm sick of the standard cheapy plastic guys. And Jack, play more Bluetooth. Bluetooth. Look at that. Bluetooth.
+
+[8:51] Bluetooth. All right. Well, if you bring the bass next week, maybe we can just play some some live Bluetooth lines. Some live Bluetooth bass lines? Well, we were gonna do the putting katonka ding stuff, right?
+
+[9:00] We need that too. Yeah. Anyway, um okay, listen, here's the thing. For those of you that don't know what the hell just happened in terms of the question, let me explain it to you. We're talking about chamber vacuum machines, the things that let you do sous vide in a uh kitchen.
+
+[9:10] They're relatively expensive. Uh the real ones uh start at around two grand and go up to uh like six. Um when you're sealing something in in a professional kitchen uh and you're doing a lot of packages, what's very important is your ability to uh not spend all of your time at the vacuum machine. Someone who has a large sous- vide program tends to have a bottleneck, a production bottleneck at the vacuum machine. Why?
+
+[9:35] Because you have to put a bag in and you're running a cycle, and the cycle takes longer than you'd think. And you usually want to bag things portion by portion if you're gonna serve them portion by portion, which means you have to run a bunch of cycles. And so you're sitting there for sometimes uh a a long, long time. Nastash, how long were we bagging that time that we did those cookies for the troops? Oh it was like a it was like an eight-hour shift of bagging alone, right?
+
+[9:58] And so what you want to make sure is to spend the extra couple hundred bucks to get two different seal bars in the machine uh because it's going to chop your bagging time in half when you're doing uh large things. So when companies usually say when they say dual seal, what they what they mean actually isn't that there are two seal bars, they mean that there's two seals on the seal bar itself, which is also important because you don't want the bags to leak. I recommend getting uh seal bars, two seal bars, each one with a double seal, and have uh one wide normal seal and the other be a sever seal that's gonna cut off the flappy parts of the bag because I detest having those flappy bag parts all over everything. Don't you hate that, Stas? Yes.
+
+[10:40] She hates it. Well, she hates bags in general, and she hates anything flappy. She hates flappy things, hates uh, like for instance, uh, you know, uh weird fungal growth on leaves, any sort of flappy, leafy thing she hates. Yeah? Yeah, true.
+
+[10:53] Okay, so uh so that's what I look for first. Secondly, I'd look for uh chamber size, uh as you state. Um you have to just go look at it. I don't have personal experience with the uh Henkelman. The Samic I looked at, and uh this is no offense to Samic people if you're listening, they are uh wildly overpriced.
+
+[11:11] Samic is wildly overpriced. In fact, I asked their rep, I said, hey, Samic rep, I don't remember his name. He was a European dude. I was like, how's come your machine is so much more expensive than the comparable machine from somebody else? And it wasn't like uh, you know, this one will cook your breakfast for you or something like that.
+
+[11:29] I didn't really understand why the Samic cost so much more at that time. I don't know if it still costs more or whether they bought their prices in line with uh Mini Pack and uh Multivac. So the you know, the ones that the three companies that I have the most experience with are Kotch, which is the one you buy if you want to buy an American product, Kotch, uh, and they're they're fine. I don't like the old Kotch manual ones very much. I use that one uh at Sambar, because that's what they have.
+
+[11:53] Um Multivac, which was the market leader and probably still is in the US, and they for a long time had kind of the best programming out there, and they had such a huge chunk of the market that they didn't do a lot of work to try and maintain chef uh like love from chefs. They didn't really care about it that much. And in fact, their smaller machines have a subpar chamber size. That said, their programming is pretty good and they're pretty robo. Minipack has worked a lot on their programming recently.
+
+[12:22] Uh in fact, uh that they have a lot of good programming in the new one. The problem is that sometimes it's a little too complicated. Like you remember that machine. We're like, what the hell? How do you make it go?
+
+[12:30] Right? But I think that they're they've worked on that. And MiniPack has has very, very good chamber size for what they do. Now, the thing that you asked about the um the VAC norms, right? First of all, in everywhere but the US, what we call a hotel pan, in Europe they call a gastronorm pan, right?
+
+[12:48] So I don't know why. We call them hotel pants, they call them gastronorm pants. Now, a regular US hotel pan, if you were to suck a vacuum on it, believe me, I've tried this. If you suck a vacuum on it, it will crush. Crush.
+
+[13:01] And so it's useless uh to use uh for vacuum sealing. So Samic has made or had made for them a, if you look at it, it looks like a little ziggurat. It's a hotel pan with like steps in it, and the wall of the stainless is much thicker than a standard hotel pan. And they also make like a like a like a Lexan lid for it with a seal on it so that you can suck a vacuum on the hotel pan itself, on this vac norm, this heavy-duty uh hotel pan. And these systems are great.
+
+[13:27] Here's the secret. Uh the system itself has nothing to do with SEMIC, right? So you can buy, and I've I've asked Cambro, I've asked all the people who make uh these things every year when I'm at the trade shows. Uh you go, no one knows who I am, doesn't matter. So I go to the trade show and I'm like, hey, listen, have you why don't you make uh uh why don't you make a hotel pan here in the US that can uh have a vacuum applied to it?
+
+[13:52] And they they always look at me like I'm some sort of an idiot, like I'm a moron, you know? Well, well, let me, yes, okay, Nastasha, correct, right? Fair, but I happen to be right on this one. And uh no one knows what why uh it hasn't it hasn't been done. Um but you can just buy the VAC norms, which are absurdly expensive also from Samic, the lid and the hose, and stick it over almost any other vacuum machine uh company's stuff, so long as you can get to the hole where the air uh comes in and out of the vacuum chamber.
+
+[14:23] So in a in a in a mini pack, that hole is exposed, which sucks most of the time because uh it means it you like when air comes back in, it can blow stuff all over the inside of the chamber, but it can be useful for something like this. So don't think that just because you want a VAC norm that you have to go with Samic's machine, right? Uh I encourage you to go uh two places that have these, look at them, play with them. Henkelman, is that the one that Miravold recommends? I don't remember.
+
+[14:50] He recommended a German brand that starts with an H and I can't remember it, German or Austrian or someone who speaks German. You know what I mean? And I think it was Henkelman and he loved it uh because of the programming, but I don't have any personal experience on it. I hope this is a reasonable response. Now, on cutting boards.
+
+[15:06] Uh when you say that you're sick of the standard cheapy plastic guys, if you're referring to the very hard polyethylene guys that come in different uh color, I hate those. I hate cutting on them, I hate looking at them, I hate touching them, I hate the way that they spin around on my on my surfaces, even if I put down the wet paper towel. By the way, everyone's worried about slipping of their boards. Just put the wet paper towel down. Does everyone not know that trick?
+
+[15:27] Like a little wet towel, put it on the on your counter, not so wet, so it's a slip and slide. You put the board on top of the board stays. Duh. Anyway, I mean not duh. Well, if you whatever.
+
+[15:36] I'm just saying do that. Uh it's terrible. Why did I say it that? Why'd I say dust? Because I'm drinking proseco at 12, right?
+
+[15:41] Okay. Uh a little hyped up today. Sorry, folks. Okay. Now, the uh there's there's there's two basic uh uh higher end, but made of plastic.
+
+[15:50] Because you specified you didn't want a non-wood cutting board. I actually love wood. I love wood, and uh usually I scrub them down with uh salt at the end of the night, and I you know I'm not worried about it. There's those studies that show that uh you know that you're not gonna get sick from using wood. But if you can't, because you're in a pro kitchen, use wood.
+
+[16:07] Uh here are the two ones that I've come across. The one that everyone seems to use that I know is a product called Sandy Tuff, made by Technor Apex. Um they won't say what it is, they'll just say it's rubber. But they won't I I looked for about 45 minutes to try and find the composition of the rubber, like what kind of rubber it is, but I could not find it anywhere. And the boards themselves are hideously ugly and crazily heavy.
+
+[16:34] Uh but they um they work they work quite well. I don't feel that they hurt my knives at all. They do discolor, they can be sanded, which is nice. Uh so you could take a belt sand or two and sand them down when they go. But the thicker ones of those get really, really, really, really heavy.
+
+[16:49] They also, if you overheat them, will warp. And if you put them on accidentally on a burner, you'll get scorch marks where you put them on a burner, but most boards are like that. The other alternative is a material called uh high soft, which is polyvinyl uh acetate PVA. Uh, PVA is the same stuff that you make. Elmer's glue is made out of, and you can buy boards uh like this, and some uh it's a Japanese use them called High Soft.
+
+[17:13] You can get them at Corin and places like that. Uh they are very expensive. They aren't as heavy as I think. I mean, I've never had them side by side, but my memory, because remember we had that when we did all the Ikijime tests on the fish, we the Corinne lent us that giant cutting board for Star Chefs. Do you remember that?
+
+[17:29] Anyway, uh my memory of that giant cutting board is that it didn't uh it didn't weigh as much as the Sandy Tuff boards. Um but they are some pricey business. They're very nice, and they felt soft on the uh on the knives, uh, and they also supposedly have it, they have a nice texture, they're non-slip, and they uh they feel good. They felt good to cut on them. So I like it.
+
+[17:48] And a lot of the sushi the sushi folks uh use that. So I hope that helps. John from Chicago, you're on the air. Hey, hey Dave. Thanks for taking my call.
+
+[18:02] Um I had a couple questions for you. When you uh when you're cooking low temperature for insurance and cooling it down, I guess I I just don't know that much about um what's what's okay to do um in terms of cooling stuff down and then just searing the exterior in terms of uh from a safety standpoint. From a safety standpoint, okay. Well, m again, everything depends on on what you're doing. If you now for those of you that uh don't know, when we're saying low temperature uh for insurance, we're just cooking the product all the way through to the minimum temperature and then afterwards doing an actual full-on uh cook step on it to get a nice uh exterior, and they cooking this way for insurance tends to produce things that taste more uh like their classical counterparts, but have a lot of the benefits of uh low temperature cooking.
+
+[18:49] Okay. So it everything depends and also depends on how much of uh of a kind of a nice uh c crust and cooking difference on the crust you want. Does that make sense? So I mean if you cook a roast all the way through so that it's pasteurized, if you're let's if you're gonna cook that long to pasteurize the whole thing, then you could chill it down and then uh you could chill it all the way down to fridge temp and then it's it's you know, it's done. So you can let it come up to uh you know, ro room temp before you do your finished sear and then throw it in a hot oven and you'll be fine.
+
+[19:23] Do you know what I mean? But a lot depends on what you're gonna do. Most of the time we don't do a full cool down on a large item. Most of the time we do a um a partial cool down. Uh or you know, like you could soak it for a while at a lower temperature.
+
+[19:39] So for instance, uh Dave Chang with with his uh chicken, he he keeps his chicken at fifty-eight degrees and then does a traditional cook for fried, and does a traditional cook-off in the fryer from fifty-eight and and finds that he can get the nice uh crust without overcooking it if he's holding it at that at that temperature. So a lot depends on exactly what you're doing, but from a safety standpoint, a lot a lot depends on whether the product has been pasteurized or not. Is that make sense? Yeah, so so if I was doing uh uh a duck breast, let's say for um at 57 for 45 minutes. Right.
+
+[20:17] I I should be cooling it down at to some extent so that I can so that I can cook and crisp up the skin, right? Yeah, I duck. So that's a good specific duck breast fifty-seven for 45 minutes is actually enough to pasteurize. I mean, okay, look. Uh I feel totally comfortable with duck breast at 57 for 45 minutes because duck breasts are fairly thin, they come to temperature pretty quickly.
+
+[20:38] Uh there's no food code on on earth that allows you because they consider duck to be poultry, and so you they normally want you to hit the higher poultry numbers, which doesn't really make a lot of sense, but you know, th that is what it is. But from an actual safety standpoint, w I think you're fine. What I do usually is uh I do fifty fifty-seven forty-five, and then I put them in the in the fridge, let them cool down, and then when it's time to sear them off, I just do a higher heat than I, you know, uh uh well, I just focus the heat directly on the skin and don't worry about the center of it. And and they come out they come out great. That's a classic use of low temperature for insurance.
+
+[21:14] So I I mean I would just chill them down in the fridge and you could hold them, you know, as you would any other cooked product. And then follow up uh because I I never imagined getting stuff like uh a sous vide setup. What do you think is the next big thing for a home kitchen or what would be like the uh the invention down the road that you really look forward to? Oh, uh well, oh by the way, to go back, uh please someone, because I don't have it in front of me, double check before you say it's a hundred percent safe on pasteurization, what the thermal death curves are of uh salmonella with uh because that's what they're gonna that's what they're gonna knock you for. Uh both you I would look at all the bacteria of interest uh like how they fare over 45 minutes.
+
+[21:54] You might need to stretch it to an hour or an hour and ten minutes, depending on uh how thick your duck breast is and how long you think the internals take to get up to temperature. Just a safety note to look at it. I have it on the blog somewhere, you just have to go find it. I don't have it in my head. Okay.
+
+[22:05] The next the next big thing um I would say uh I mean, I I want it to be the centrifuge. Uh there's n there's none out there yet uh that is fantastic for uh most people at home. I'm working on it. You know what I mean? I think look, it took us ten years for the first circulator under 500 bucks to hit the market.
+
+[22:25] And now we're there. You know, now we have circulators for 350. And once you hit the 350 mark, once you're below 500, you've now jumped into a whole new planet of uh what's possible. Um yeah. My my vote would be for uh a small, small ultra customizable curing chamber that you can use for cheeses and for you know curing sausage.
+
+[22:48] That's a good idea. The the issue with it is remember with a curing chamber, you you're gonna want to develop some sort of stability over time with the uh I mean the smaller the thing, the the the more they're moved by individual batches, you know what I mean? And the less you get the effect of uh kind of the stable uh micro, you know, microflora and fauna of of uh of a of a steady big curing room. But it would be a good idea. And you know, it could easily be made.
+
+[23:13] People sell kits now, actually. If you go to Auburn Instruments, you can go to them. I've never purchased one from them, but they b they sell kits where you can control the humidity and the temperature, so you could turn any refrigerator or whatever into a curing chamber. But yeah, maybe the one that's marketed more directly, less less DIY and more marketed directly. Okay, and then uh final thing and then I'll hang up.
+
+[23:33] Uh um if you're looking to increase the flavor of a braise or a stew, what are some good tips to keep in mind? Low temp or regular. Oh, well, I uh do your initial brown properly, get a lot of extra. I you know, I usually start with a really, really flavorful stock. Uh uh, you know, as my base boil, like do some pre-reduction on that.
+
+[23:55] Um, you know, the stock with with uh with the wine, basically, you know, a bourguignon sauce uh you know thing, and then you use the right vegetable mix and pre-brown your meat before you go. That's that's that's typically what we do. Any typical other ingredient add-ons that that can kind of give you a boost? Well, I mean, if you're if money is no object, you can make the stock with something really crazy fatty and gelatinous like like like uh oxtail. But you know, that's if you have that's if you have money to light on fire.
+
+[24:24] Okay. I'll I'll look at some money, thanks. All right, cool. Thanks a lot. Break time.
+
+[24:31] Oh, break time. Cooking issues, I'll be like the product. Heritage Radio Rick. Wake up, wake up. What would you do with that be?
+
+[25:25] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. Edwards Surreano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color.
+
+[26:04] The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. I don't know that I'd characterize uh S.
+
+[26:30] Wallace Edwards hams as sweet. No. No, they're delicious. What do you mean by sweet? They're not sugary sweet.
+
+[26:36] No. I mean. They're not too salty, though. No, they're not. Well, too salty.
+
+[26:42] Here's the thing, right? When people are eating American country hams, what they do in old school, the American way of eating country hams years ago, and it's forever, it's because we've we've inherited our ham eating culture from the from the Brits, right? Is that you take your cured hams and you cook them afterwards, right? And when you cook an American uh country ham, you turn it into a salt lick. So everyone's idea of uh American hams being too salty comes from this fact that they're horribly overcooked.
+
+[27:09] And as soon as you overcook it, it's it it really is horribly, horribly salty. The other problem is Americans think that ham should come in thick, thick slices. And this is not because we're used to eating city hams, and city hams you can eat in big thick slices because they're pumped full of water and they're big and they're spongy, right? Whereas American country ham was never intended to be eaten this way. It was intended to be eaten in in thin pieces, small things as a seasoning over a long period of time.
+
+[27:36] Hence the old joke. What's the definition of eternity? A couple in a Virginia ham, because they can eat that thing forever, right? And it's a good way to preserve meat and have it go. So people who think that American ham is too salty just aren't eating it right.
+
+[27:49] You don't agree with me, Jack? I I do agree with you, yeah. I I've had the uh Suriano thinly sliced and then kind of chunks of it, and it doesn't even thin. Thin. Thin.
+
+[28:00] And you know, and uh it is saltier than uh the you know European counterparts that we're used to, like Prosciutta di Parma and things like this. Uh but uh American ham is its own thing. It is what it is, which is why, and I'll say it uh again, even though I probably said it ten times on this show, uh Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards, even though I like him and I love his ham, his you know, the wigwam and the one that they do for with heritage meats that Berkshire wanted to do is delicious. I wish he wouldn't call it Suriano.
+
+[28:27] I wish he wouldn't reference a European ham at all because his family has been curing for hundreds of years in uh you know in in that area of Virginia, and it's a product unique to itself and shouldn't be compared to anything else. It's a delicious product. I love it, you know. I hate the fact that it's compared to a European product. Jax has nothing to say about this because it's a sponsor now.
+
+[28:47] Look, it's like whatever. I like you know, I I I I like I like the product, it's a good product. If I I'm gonna throw in my two cents and don't get the country ham at Waffle House. Okay, that's fair. You know, the the thing that people don't realize about country ham is that uh for many, many years it was seen as a commodity product.
+
+[29:04] And so country ham producers over the decades after World War II uh made a cheaper and cheaper product because it was seen that cost was the driver, and they kept on losing their market to city hams, and people are eating more and more of these spongy city hams. And so country hams are really dying out, and to try and stay ahead, people would try to you know make it cheaper and cheaper, make it cost less and less, push the cure time shorter, and uh uh you know, a few people stayed around and made kept on making the product the old way, and we're really keeping an uh you know a national uh a national food cultural tradition alive, an important one, I think. And that's why years ago, uh, you know, actually when I f we first started first started the you know museum of food and drink, one of the first things I focused on was American country ham and how we're eating it wrong, and how a modern way to consume it is to eat it the same way we eat prosciutto, which you're seeing now a lot of places like uh Ike Sambar, who has a uh you know a ham program now, but years ago, people weren't doing this with American country ham. And I think that's what's the the the new way of eating it, and these ham producers I think now realize, you know, it's the the Nancy Mahaffey's from Colonel Newsom, the the Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards are realizing that it's the kind of this new consumption mode is is uh you know good good news for for uh country hams uh all over the country.
+
+[30:21] I don't know, whatever. Country ham, love it. Okay. Brian writes in from San Francisco about fruit in Hawaii. Hello, cooking issues posse.
+
+[30:29] I'm going to Hawaii over Thanksgiving and want to taste some yummy tropical fruit. Is there a Brogdale equivalent in Hawaii, i.e. a tasting farm? If not, which fruit should I be seeking out and where? Uh mostly being kawaii.
+
+[30:40] Now listen, Brian, I sorry to say I have never been to Hawaii in my my whole life, uh, although my wife was born there. It's one of the places I want to go. You ever been there, Stas? No. No?
+
+[30:50] Be nice though, right? I mean you can take a vacation. Nah. Anyway, but like it's I I like I hate uh I've said this many times. I hate tropical paradise, except for the fruit, right?
+
+[31:00] And so like I'd love to go to Hawaii and and try the fruit, but uh unfortunately I don't have any real recommendations because I haven't been there. What I would do is I would go to the uh Hawaii Hawaii Tropical Fruit Growers website and uh try to get in contact with them and see if there's anyone that they know. There's a really good website that I've used, well, not good from a design standpoint, not that we can talk because our thing is c always broken, but she has like uh he or she. I don't know why I said she, I don't really know who it is, but they have like this weird space thing in their website, like you know how like websites have like that weird spacing with the stars and the Milky Way behind it, so it makes it hard to read and all the writings in big bold yellow stuff. You know what I'm talking about, Styles?
+
+[31:36] And then like rainbow writing and like weird pictures and stuff. Well, this website's like that, but aside from that, great information, great varieties of fruit, and also v awesome, awesome links. Some of the best links on tropical fruits that you can get on the internet. And it's www.fruitlovers.com. And they have nursery and they sell fruit.
+
+[31:54] Uh unfortunately they're closed uh from October till December 15th, so you're out of luck for Thanksgiving visiting those guys. But uh try to contact some of these people and find out where to go. I'm sorry that I don't have any kind of a better information. Nastash's like, yeah, you're useless, pretty much. Right?
+
+[32:11] Yeah. Right. Uh Tony Heron writes in from the mixing bar team in Brazil. Uh hello, Jack, Joe, Nastasha, and Dave. Congratulations on the hundredth show.
+
+[32:20] Wow, what a great journey. Thank you. Uh have to is that is that stay that's obligatory, Jack? I knew 100 meters, by the way, too. Well, we'll try to unfortunately later on in the show we have uh something that's a hundred degrees Celsius, and so you uh we better you know keep track of when it's a hundred degrees and when it's a hundredth show, or it doesn't matter.
+
+[32:39] Well, we'll see, we'll see what happens. Uh thank you very much for all the hints, great ideas, inspiration, and good laughs. Keep up the outstanding work. Well, thank you very much. I've got a cook uh a few questions about Pectanex, which is an enzyme that breaks down pectins.
+
+[32:49] We use Pectanex Ultra SPL from Novozymes. Uh, I've got a few questions about Pectanex for Dave. Uh not too long ago I got some Pectanex from Modernist Pantry, who used to be a sponsor of our show, modernistpantry.com. Uh, but haven't had much time to play with it. We've tried enzymatic peeling as described on the cooking issues blog, but the results weren't great.
+
+[33:06] The stuff didn't peel right, and limes oxidized very quickly. I can't ruh recall the concentration for us right now, but we sealed the fruit with quite a few cuts in the skin uh and uh put the solution inside a jar under vacuum. The jar was put in a water bath at 40 degrees Celsius to activate the enzyme for quite a long time. Nothing remarkably really happened before the end of several hours, but by then the flavor of the fruit was gone. We did lemons, limes, tangerines, and cumquats.
+
+[33:29] What other cool tricks do you recommend uh for us to try with uh SPL that don't require centrifuge? Okay. Um limes aren't I've never had any good luck with limes. Uh what what you want to do, I want to see what you said here. I wouldn't make uh cuts in the skin.
+
+[33:45] Look, unless the unless the actual enzyme is in direct contact with the white part, with the albedo of the uh fruit, you're not gonna get uh very good results. So when we're working with it, if you want the peel, we peel the fruit in in you know, kind of nicely cut peels, and then bag those in a vacuum, bag them in a vacuum with uh with the enzyme, right? Then after that's done, the white will be kind of gelatinous and disgusting, the stasha won't touch it. And then we take a toothbrush and we run it with the toothbrush under running water, and all of the albedo can be kind of wiped away, right? So that's what you do with the peels.
+
+[34:19] Lime peel does not work very well. I'm just telling you right now. Oranges work well, pomelo works well, uh, grapefruit works well, uh, lemons work okay, right? Now for the fruit itself, uh, the best possible thing to do is to break is to pull the the actual fruit after it's peeled into at least halves and possibly quarters and then bag it so that the actual enzyme can get to the membrane in between uh in between the fruits. And that's when you can get the really good um you know destruction from the enzyme.
+
+[34:49] It's very difficult for the enzyme to pierce into the center of the fruit. It just does not work that way. You have to kind of break it apart. Other tricks to do with SPL, I know you're doing a bar, but if you want to do French fries, I use SPL for all of our French fry needs, right? Um, but I can't think of you can also do clarify.
+
+[35:07] Okay. Let's say you're doing agar clarification, and your agar clarification isn't working very well, right? Because you're using a puree. You're in Brazil, you're getting amazing pureees. So you don't have a centrifuge, fine.
+
+[35:18] But agar clarification, very difficult for you to do on very thick items, things like uh sour sap, aka guanabana. So what you want to do is treat the puree with SPL, right? Let the SPL sit for a long time. It's gonna liquefy the puree and make it a lot uh more liquidy by breaking down the pectin, and then your yield when you're doing agar clarification is gonna go way up. So even if you're doing standard agar clarification because you don't have a centrifuge, um, you can use the SPL to help benefit uh your clarification uh results overall.
+
+[35:51] Okay. Uh also Tales of the Cocktail, we spoke about trying to rotovat the leftover liquid from peeling. Did you ever give that a try? No. You know what?
+
+[35:58] There's so many things we need to try, and we just don't have time. You ever notice that, Stas? Yeah. How days just run away from us? How like you know, you have a day and then like you wake up and then the day is gone.
+
+[36:06] It's crazy, right? Okay. So no, I'm sorry, I haven't tried it. Uh Red from Zymergy, right, same with the problem on lamb. Hey Dave, this is the second time I've done lamb shanks with sous vide at 62 degrees Celsius for around 48 hours with uh half a percent salt added to each shank.
+
+[36:21] The first time they came out, fantastic, with no issues. Well, this uh well, this is only the second time for the Shanks. I've been doing sous vide for almost three years and have never encountered what happened to these ones. I was in Whole Foods, they were selling Icelandic lamb. Who did you know they made lamb in Iceland?
+
+[36:34] No. New Zealand, yeah. Iceland? But it's green there. Yeah, it's right, it's reversed.
+
+[36:40] It's green, but I mean, yeah, I just never knew that Iceland was a big land place. I you know, I know them from financial collapse, from Bjork, from you know, from uh, you know, power from uh what's the what's it, geothermal power, all that? Lamb, I did not know. Makes sense though, right? Yeah, okay.
+
+[36:55] Uh I bought six shanks, salted them, chilled them, and vacuumed them. I put them in a bath within the half an hour, all the bags began to bloat and float, which I'm gonna use that from now on. Red, I'm using bloat and float. That's my new term for that. Bloat and float.
+
+[37:08] You like that? Bloat and float? That tell you that like I'm never gonna do this. I was talking to Jeremiah Bullfrog, one of our chef friends from Miami, and what we need to do is start a website where it's kind of like uh I don't know, like Craigslist or something, but it's just lists of good band names that we're never gonna use, and then when people use them, they just check it off, and then you know it's used already. You know?
+
+[37:29] So it's just like a huge list of band names, or you you know, they could use it for whatever, but mostly it's band names, and then like we're like, oh, bloat and float. We just add it to the list, and then someone's like bloat and float, thanks, and they check it off. You know what I mean? It's a great idea. Yeah.
+
+[37:42] Jeremiah's awesome too. He was just here in New York. Yeah, he's a good man. So one of you guys gonna make that website? I'm never gonna do it.
+
+[37:48] Uh put it on the list. Yeah, but bloat and float. All right. Uh okay. Bags began to bloat and float.
+
+[37:53] So not knowing what happened, I took them out of the bath and placed them um in an ice bath and chilled them down for about an hour and put them in new bags. These two began to bloat and float, so I placed a screen on them and weighted them down in the bath. The only thing I can come up with is that the shanks were off-gassing or something. They were not sitting around in the meat case, they came right out of a sealed box and appeared to be as fresh as possible with no off aroma. You never know those Icelandic people.
+
+[38:14] You never know what they've added to it. Just kidding. Uh I'm as I'm typing this email, they're uh they're still in the bath, so I cannot comment on the outcome. I just turned them and the bags are not as bloated as before. So I'm still wondering what's happened.
+
+[38:24] By the time your show airs, the shank will be done, and I will follow up with an additional email to comment on their taste. Which has already happened. Uh I appreciate your passing. Oh, wait, wait. The lamb shanks came out fine.
+
+[38:35] For the most part, all the shanks came out of the bath uh indicating that they were still under uh vacuum. I have still never encountered this type of initial bloating in the bag, so any assistance would be uh be appreciated. Red. Okay. What's interesting about this problem is that your bloat happened in the first 45 minutes.
+
+[38:51] Usually uh bad bloat, i.e. bacterial bloat, happens after several hours. And the reason for bacterial bloat is if you put a bunch of bags together and you haven't uh you know pasteurized the outside of those bags first, there's bacteria in it, and because the bags are jammed together, it can take hours for the surface temperature in those bags that are clustered too tightly to get up to temperatures where they're killing bacteria. And you get lactic acid bacteria usually growing in those bags, and they inflate and they puff up, and when you cut them open, they smell awful like blue cheese mixed with sauerkraut, mixed with death, they're horrible, right? You smell those, right, Stas?
+
+[39:26] Yeah, horrible. Uh which is why typically, if you don't know why a bag is bloated, you probably shouldn't eat it. Now, if a bag bloats immediately, i.e., well immediately, within 45 minutes or so of putting it in, you're dealing with most probably not a bacterial problem. You're most probably dealing with uh thermal expansion and release of air. Now, where is this most likely coming from?
+
+[39:48] Think about it. It's two places it can come from. One, the bones in your lamb in your lamb shank are hollow and contain air. If you want to bag something with bones like lamb shanks, you're gonna want to suck a serious vacuum on it. So if your product wasn't that cold when it went into the vacuum uh chamber and you weren't able to suck a hardcore vacuum for a long time on that bone, there's gonna be trapped air inside of that bone, and then when you vacuum it, uh, that I mean when you vacuum it, the air is gonna be still there, and when you heat it, the air is gonna expand out of the bone and puff up your bag.
+
+[40:23] Which happens all the time when you uh when you do things uh with bones and bags, which is why when you have a bone in the bag and you want to do cooking, you have to suck a serious, serious vacuum on it. Uh a lot ex a lot longer than you would in a normal kind of vacuum ceiling uh scenario. The so that's you know, keep it cold and suck a good vacuum on it. The problem is if you're gonna do that on something like a chicken bone, the uh the red crud on the inside of the bone gets sucked out and goes along the meat and it never you know turns unred, and so you get this unappetizing, basically inedible from those people because visually they can't get past it. Red mark called persistent pinking around the outside of the meat.
+
+[40:59] Uh okay. So the other problem is is perhaps you had veg in with your lamb shanks, right? And the veg wasn't fully cooked. Not only there's two things. One, vegetables aren't gonna cook at 62 degrees Celsius, even if you left them in there for weeks, so carrots are gonna stay crunchy for the entire time.
+
+[41:14] But uncooked vegetables have a lot of air in them, and if you don't suck a long vacuum on it, that trapped air inside of those uncooked vegetables will also come out when you're cooking and cause the bag to bloat. My guess is 90%, I'm 90% certain that that is the reason this has happened. What do you think? Good answer, good answer. All right, should we take one more break?
+
+[41:32] No. No? Keep going? You have like five minutes. What?
+
+[41:36] You have a call at one. Oh my god. Okay. The people on air do not give a rat's behind about what calls I have at one. I don't care about.
+
+[41:43] All right. Fine. All right. Tom Fisher writes in uh regarding rib fat. Recently I tried poly science's recipe for low temperature ribs, and while the flavor was amazing, my guests were a little freaked out by the unrendered fat.
+
+[41:54] Is there any way to do a combination of high and low temperature cooking to get the best of both worlds? I was looking uh at picking up a CVAP. CVAP is uh we'll explain in a minute. A CVAP for my kitchen, and I noticed that Winston sells both cook and hold ovens and hold and serve drawers. Both are described as having the same theory of operation.
+
+[42:10] What's really the difference between the two? Thanks for all the great information, Tom Fisher. Now CVAP is a holding oven almost like an Alto Sham, but it has a Bane Marie in the bottom. And the Bain Marie heats water to a very accurate temperature. And so the whole notion of a CVAP is that they can control the difference in temperature between the water bath and the air temperature, and therefore set the humidity inside of the oven.
+
+[42:32] And so by properly setting it, you can keep all, you know, any kind of food you want at uh exactly the right condition. It was invented for holding uh fried chicken. For it was invented by uh Winston from Winston Industries for Colonel Sanders from Kentucky Fried Chicken. And so you can keep crunchy things in it by setting the humidity level right. You can keep uh, you know, you can keep moist things in it.
+
+[42:52] In low temperature cooking, we typically set it to 100% humidity and they're fairly accurate, which is why we do it. The difference between the cook and hold and uh the uh whatever the other one is called is that the cook and hold ones versus the hold and serve ones uh have more power. And so they're meant to um bring the temperature of a food item up, cook it and let it go. Whereas the hold and serve ones have less power and they're not designed to do the actual cooking. Now, with low temperature cooking, they're adequate, right?
+
+[43:24] If you're actually gonna try to, you know, mimic some of the effects of a combi oven by doing roasting, then you need the extra power from a cook and hold. Hope that helps. I don't know what the cost difference is, because I've never had to never had to research the cost difference in it. Okay. Uh Michael Sanders writes in from England about boiling baths.
+
+[43:42] Uh good afternoon, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for doing the show every week. Thank you. Well, thanks for listening. I'm a longtime listener of the podcast.
+
+[43:50] I'm in London, so work commute prevents me from listening live. Uh and I regularly revisit the old episodes and eagerly look forward to a new show each week. The enjoyment factor aside, the show has improved the quality of the food I cook at home and has introduced me to some great working practices, products, and techniques. That's nice. That's very gratifying.
+
+[44:05] That's my favorite thing to hear. Thank you. Uh the reason for my email is to ask a question regarding a recent eBay purchase. I've acquired a grant SBB6 boiling bath for no reason other than it was going to uh for a bargain price of 30 pounds. 50 dollars.
+
+[44:18] Can you believe that 30 pounds is fifty bucks? I was in England the other, like very recently, and you know, everything is the same price tag there, but it's in pounds. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like, you know, man, but it used to be worse.
+
+[44:30] Tony C. Tony Kingliar from 69 Cobra Grove, Conliaro. He used to come here and our money was like Monopoly money. He would like laugh in my face and like light money in front of me because you know, our money was so worthless compared to their uh British money. Anyway, it has nothing to do with it.
+
+[44:44] Okay. Uh I thought there might be a culinary application for which the Grant boiling bath is useful. I was hoping that it may be useful in its current working state, or that I may be able to recalibrate the unit to a lower fixed temperature, perhaps to use it as a water bath for the preparation of vegetables, freeing up a separate circulator for the preparation of the protein at a lower temperature. How do you rate my chances of being able to hack the unit to do this reliably? If this is unlikely to produce a successful outcome, can you think of a use for a water bath at a fixed hundred degree C temperature?
+
+[45:12] Secondly, what would you recommend is good practice for cleaning of lab equipment purchased from eBay? This unit is new, but all the same, I would like to clean it just in case. Plus, I'm currently bidding on a number of other units from laboratory sales, and I'm unsure what use they may have had in their previous lives. I know that you have covered cleaning on previous shows, but was hoping that a 30-second recap may be possible. Keep up the good work.
+
+[45:32] My girlfriend and I are coming uh are looking forward to visiting Booker and Dax bar next year where we are in New York for a food and drink tour time to coincide with the first New York Formula One race. Thanks, Michael Sanders. Okay. Great question. Great question.
+
+[45:46] So I looked up your boiling bath, and uh unfortunately the boiling bath doesn't work on a thermostat because it's literally boiling. So the knob on the front of your uh of your boiling bath just all it does is it modifies how much power is being introduced. So the way you're supposed to use this thing is you fill it up with water, you turn it on, you crank it, and then when it starts boiling, you turn it down until you're just maintaining a boil so you're not using extra uh energy. Cool thing about your unit is that it has a little uh hose that you can attach to it to add water to it without having to uh go do you know anything else, and it has a drain. So these are two very very useful things.
+
+[46:22] So it's six liters. So it would make a good probably you could probably uh you know make a jury-rigged uh pasta cooker out of it because it's boiling and it's got a drain, so you could probably use that drain to get the starch off the top of the of the pasta thing and keep it going. It would also be great for vegetables, even at a hundred degrees C because you're not gonna have a lot of things touching uh the bag that could cause it to break. So it'd probably be good for uh sous vegetables at that temperature. If you want to treat it as a water bath, the problem is if you're gonna do a lot of low temperature work with it, it at only six liters, it doesn't have that large a capacity.
+
+[46:55] And so you're gonna have some uh issues with it if you're trying to do large amounts of cooking in it. That said, if six liters is big enough, and you really want to turn it into a second circulator. All you need to do is buy uh any one of the uh PID rice cooker conversions that use a thermocouple, and you plug, you know, instead of plugging this sucker into the wall, plug it into the PID rice cooker converter, put the uh th, you know, the temperature probe in, and now you have a thermostatically controlled water bath. Just bypass the controls on it entirely. Um, you know, the only issue there is that these water baths that you have are unstirred, and so if you want the actual, you know, total even temperature from top to bottom, you'll have to throw an aquarium pump or a bubbler in there that's pushing some air in to move the water around.
+
+[47:39] None of it's complicated, it's all easily done. It's just a question of how much you want to do. I would love to have a you know something that could boil that's not on a fire if I'm doing vegetables because I don't really see a lot of difference in cooking a vegetable at 85 C or at 100 C. The uh, you know, the the main difference is it's difficult on a stove to do vegetables at uh a hundred and always make sure that there's no flame because you know I'm working this, there's no flame that's gonna touch the side of my bag, right? And to always make sure that you're gonna have the right level of water in there.
+
+[48:10] So if you have this cool water input that makes it sure that your level is always right and there's no flame touching the uh sides where the bag is, it could be very useful for doing things like veg. Um what do you think, Stas? Yeah, you are done. No, we're not done. It's 48 after, Stas.
+
+[48:24] Crazy head. Well, we're supposed to go to 45, so what? So buttons. I'm not even done with this question yet. I will be hey, for the record, for everyone on the air, I have a telephone call at one o'clock that Nastasha is concerned with because it's possible that I'm gonna be on air with her idol, Hoda, and she wants a good 10 minutes of me having mellow time to think about what I'm gonna say to Hoda's producer.
+
+[48:47] Goodbye to CNN, you have to say goodbye to Jack. They don't have to leave during the what am I gonna say the call for the entire the for like the next hour and a half? Anyway, so I'm gonna finish this question. Uh so about cleaning equipment, you want to make sure it depends on what the equipment is going to be used for. Anything that might have touched a biological agent, like a centrifuge, you want to make sure that you treat it with a very hardcore bleach.
+
+[49:10] Uh, and then after you hardcore bleach it, really hardcore bleach it, I try to pressure cook the stuff to sterilize it, and then I treat it with bleach again. Equipment that's going to have inorganic chemicals touching it, like rotovaps, things like this that might be a problem. You want to uh add uh, you know, we bought some hardcore glass cleaner called what was that stuff called? Sus Alcanex? Alc Alcanox?
+
+[49:31] Alcanox uh cleaner that you know strips a bunch of stuff off and just you're gonna have to rinse it like a million times to get the stuff off. You just really want to make sure you get everything off because there can be some really, really, really, really nasty business. Things that can't be there's certain things that like can't really be fixed that well, things that might absorb different uh different chemicals like rubbers and stuff. Sometimes with those, you're better off totally replacing them. Um that said, uh, you know, I always err on the side of of overcleaning and making sure that everything is eaten or melted off.
+
+[50:03] If you have metal, you can do alternate, you can bleach, and then don't do this to aluminum, but if you can do bleach and then you could do oven cleaner because oven cleaner is gonna eat any pro you know protonace stuff that's uh caught on it. So I just recommend uh going uh really hardcore on that. Okay. Uh and one last question in on the on the Twitter from uh what was it from from Clefs. Uh at cooking issues, does adding oxidized oil to non-oxidized oil cause the non-oxidized oil to oxidize faster than it would alone?
+
+[50:33] Or is it linear? Now, uh you know, I had never really stupidly I'd never really thought about this problem before. Um, but uh, you know, it makes sense that that what you're saying is is right. However, I know, and I said on the last week's show, which is maybe what prompted this, that the way that you do this professionally and in continuous frying is to achieve a certain level of oxidation and keep it constant by constantly adding fresh oil to it, and you reach kind of a steady state where the oil stays the same. Things like potatoes uh absorb the exact amount of oil that they need and everything goes in a steady state.
+
+[51:07] But uh, I don't know. Here's what you know. I know that what affects uh oxidation rate in oil is the presence of oxygen and the presence of metallic ions, which is why you don't salt things, for instance, before you put them in oil, typically, because it's going to increase the rate at which your oil breaks down. It's not really important if you're not going to use the oil for a long time or if you're pan-frying, but in deep frying, it can be uh quite important. But I recommend that you read uh Egan Press.
+
+[51:30] Uh go online, you can get a downloadable PDF of their uh edible fats and oils book. It's very short, it's very good. Uh, and uh I go back and read it, uh read it quite a bit. And uh here's a quick paragraph from them uh on flavor and order uh uh flavor and odor. Organoleptic evaluation of oils is an empirical test, and there's no substitute for an experienced analyst.
+
+[51:51] That experienced analyst is going to be you, and the way that I test my oils constantly to see whether or not they're any good is I get bread, regular white bread, totally neutral white bread. Why? Because it's porous and it soaks up oil. Heat the oil up uh and then put the bread in and fry off the bread a little bit. Don't need to fry it long, you don't want it to brown or anything like that.
+
+[52:08] Pull it out and taste that bread. If that bread tastes good, if that bread tastes neutral, then you're good to go. And if it doesn't, that oil is no good. And that's literally the test that I run whenever I'm wondering whether my oil is on the edge or not. And it's really very, very uh sensitive.
+
+[52:23] You know, your palate is very sensitive, and it's what you should follow. If you want a more scientific explanation, go to this, uh go to this paper. It's available free on the web. It's called Mechanism and Factors for Edible Oil Oxidation by Eunic Coey and David B. Min.
+
+[52:39] Eunuch Coe is a rough name to have. That's this week in cooking Issues. Come back next week, our hundredth episode. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[53:16] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[53:36] Heritage Radio Network is now on Stitcher. Listen to us on your iPhone, Android phone, Kindle Fire, and other devices with Stitcher. Stitcher is smart radio for your phone. Find it in your app store or at Stitcher.com. Stitcher Smart Radio, the smarter way to listen to radio.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello.
+
+[0:49] We on? Yeah. Wow. We didn't have any song. Uh Joe, what's up?
+
+[0:54] Uh trying out a new song, and uh maybe that one won't work. I think it's fine. It's just, you know, I didn't I thought that was part of the whole, you know, we're Heritage Radio Network. That's the thing. It's like you need a break between the Heritage Radio Network and the Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:06] Am I right? Yes. Am I right? Sure. Let's start this fresh people.
+
+[1:10] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Hondur, host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting in a container in the back of uh what is it? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Live as always with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and uh with Joe in the engineering booth. No Jack today, huh?
+
+[1:29] No, Jack's feeling real sick. Yeah, what kind of sick? I'm not exactly sure. It's uh some sort of flu type. Uh-huh.
+
+[1:38] Is it is it the kind of flu you can track from drinking all night? Well I'm just kidding. Jack is a very responsible man. Uh at least about that, so I'm sure that's not it. Anyway, call your questions live to 7184972128.
+
+[1:52] That's 718497-2128. Uh, I thought actually uh Nastasha was gonna be late because she had to run around like a nincompoop today because we have an event uh we have an event later this afternoon. What is the event we're doing anyway? It's for the American new product stuff, Martha Stewart. American new product stuff.
+
+[2:10] What's what's that? New products that Martha Stewart likes. That are happen to be American? Yeah. And uh we're we're helping out, or are we one of those products that she likes?
+
+[2:19] I'm just kidding. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Apparently, we're supposed to dress in uh caterers' uniforms, is that correct? All black.
+
+[2:26] All black? So all the only requirements all black. Mm-hmm. So sequins that are all black. That's fine.
+
+[2:31] So if anyone out there knows a source in Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, preferably, for you know, not too svelt uh male sequined unitards. Please tweet them in so that I can go purchase my sequined unitard. Uh, you know, Booker and Dax became recently uh obsessed with the word unitard. Uh and for that, they were way ahead of me. I didn't become obsessed with unitards and the word unitard until possibly college.
+
+[2:57] Right? When I was when I first started in bands, one of my dreams was to have we were in a band called Jurassic Yellow Plastic, was to have a yellow sequined unitard and a velvet uh a velvet coat with lapels that uh were uh about uh you know a foot and a half taller than my head that went up. I was big on Bootsy Collins and that kind of thing. Anyways, on to today's question. So Nastasha, I realized that last week uh I started answering a question, and as is normal for someone like me, it totally went completely off base and never actually answered their question.
+
+[3:28] So uh I apologize to Tom Fisher. Uh Tom Fisher asked, uh recent this is not recently anymore, because it's two weeks, two weeks, whatever. I recently tried Polyscien's recipe for low temperature ribs, and while the flavor was amazing, my guests were a little freaked out by the unrendered fat. Is there any way to do a combination of high and low temperature cooking to get the best of both worlds? Now I answered a second question that he had, which was about C VASP, but I never answered this.
+
+[3:50] It's kind of an important question when it comes to low temperature cooking. The answer is no. You cannot get the best of uh well, you can't get the best of both worlds in that way. Low temperature cooking uh never renders the fat or the collagen out of uh the out of the meats. And so there's positives and negatives to this.
+
+[4:09] One, the meats don't get as much gelatin and all sorts of broken down uh you know collagen, which is gelatin, uh, throughout the throughout the piece of meat in a low temperature cooked uh item because the stuff it it turns tender but it stays in place. And so if you have a portion of something that you're in a traditional braise might get a little moistened by that by that that render stuff coming out, it's not gonna happen in a low temperature. On the other hand, uh the the benefit of uh it not rendering out, well, the other benefit of it not rendering out is as your guests found out, they can be a little bit freaked out by what they think are big chunks of fat, some of which are big chunks of fat, but also big uh chunks of soft but unrendered connective tissue. But the benefits are that uh unlike a regular traditional braise, you can take most and only with short ribs, if there's a lot of bones, there's you know, it's much harder, but you can do a lot of fabrication work on low temperature cooked stuff. So you can get very uh, you know, nicely sliced pieces of low temperature cooked things like ribs that are very tender that you can never do if you were doing a traditional uh cooking technique because they would just shred into into pieces, right?
+
+[5:17] So uh so the answer is no. Uh but you you know, you can't kind of get the best of both worlds because if you rendered that out, you'd be cooking it to such an extent that you might have just done low temperature. Uh I mean you might as well just done traditional cooking from the beginning. There's no reason to do the low temperature step. So I what I would say is that use each technique for its own um for its own best purpose.
+
+[5:36] So low temperature ribs, great for doing uh small portions that are um sliced very nicely and sauced and served as part of plated dish components, right? But if you want rendered out, you know, stick to your ribs, ribs, like you know, you know, grandma style, yeah, which I love, uh, then you know, go go traditional, right? Nastasha actually usually I think prefers the traditional one on that, right? Yes. Although I don't think they're I I really honestly, and I've said this a billion times, and I'll probably say it, you know, forever, there's no better or worse.
+
+[6:06] It's not better or worse. It's you know, can you achieve the result that you want to achieve? So, anyway, Tom, sorry about that. Another thing I think I don't think I mentioned uh last week uh that we had a question about cutting boards, and I talked about cutting boards. I'm just curious out there if anyone out there has tried these weird multi-layer cutting boards that are coming out of Asia now, where it's it's like literally just stacked sheets of thin cutting boards that are semi-laminated into one thick board, and then when the top gets dirty, instead of cleaning it, you shove a knife into it and peel the entire top layer of the board off.
+
+[6:37] You ever seen this, Nastasha? No, it's cool. It's cool, but it's weird. It makes a really you would hate it, you know why? It makes a something wrong with you noise when the when the uh when layers are separating, it's like Nastasha hates that because it makes her think of some sort of disease peeling off.
+
+[6:51] I mean, I've made that kind of noise in the kitchen before, not peeling a disease off. Right? Not not for that reason, but uh but and you hate that kind of noise, right? I hate your breathing, so. See, now that's classic Nastasha.
+
+[7:07] Now, for those of you out there who say uh Nastasia, she give it to me, like I give it to her. See, that's the only time on the air she's ever actually said something like she would normally say to me in uh you know in in the real world, just so you guys get a get a picture of of uh what's going on. Okay, very nice. Uh okay. Uh Alvin Schultz uh tweeted in with a couple different questions.
+
+[7:27] One was have we ever tried the technique of cryoshocking? So cryo shucking is uh is uh something that was uh pioneered or I should say uh advocated by I mean I don't know who actually came up with it, uh shucking oysters by um putting the oyster into liquid nitrogen for a brief period of time that kills slashes messes up the musculature of the oyster such that when they uh when they warm up a little bit so they're not frozen, you can get a knife in there and you don't have to worry about popping the belly, and you don't have to worry about getting little bits of shell into your oyster. Cryo shucking. Now I have to admit, uh, you know, Chris uh Chris Young and uh you know Nathan and Maxime and those guys, by the way, you know, none of that team together anymore. The whole team split up, the whole original modernist, like all three of those guys, they're all gone their own separate ways at this point.
+
+[8:14] And the end of that era, beginning of a new era. Uh so the uh cryoshucking, uh, I've never had much luck with it. They are big advocates of it. I've spoken to Nathan about it, and I've spoken to Chris Young about it. I forget exactly how many seconds you put it in.
+
+[8:28] The idea is not to freeze the oyster all the way through, just to uh shock the beejesus out of it so that and I guess kill it, but so that it you know you can um so that it relaxes enough for you to get your knife in without having to put too much force in it. Because when you're putting the force in it that you get the um that you get the problems of of chipping shell and all that. Now, uh Nils and I tried it years and years ago, uh years and years ago, and we know we just never had much luck with it. We always maybe we overfroze it, I don't know, but we never we never really we never really were too uh jazzed about it but you know Chris is enough of an advocate of it that I think it bears me trying it again at some point that the idea is to freeze it just long enough uh to uh get it to relax after it thaws but not enough to alter the texture by freezing it you also want to make sure that you put them cupside down when they're thawing so you don't lose any of the awesome precious juices uh when you cry a shuck. But shucking oysters is a huge problem so anything that makes it uh work out better is probably uh uh a good thing to do should I share the Nick Wang story even though I'm probably not supposed to Dave Chang doesn't listen.
+
+[9:31] Okay. Right? So Dave Chang Dave Chang is a huge uh huge on on oyster shucking. In fact we saw him not that long ago in an oyster shucking contest at Somme where like all of the Momo cooks were racing each other to see who could shuck oysters fastest. And so Dave Chang hates there's two things there's there's there's three things he hates about oyster shucking.
+
+[9:52] One if you're slow and puny he hates that right he hates if you pop a belly that's uh akin to if to him you might as well just punch him in the face as pop an oyster belly like he like that that would make him punch you in the face. So we're going back to last week's like what would cause a fo a food stuff that would cause your friend to punch you in the face if you shucked an oyster in front of Dave Chang and popped the belly. And the other one is if you served a customer an oyster with bits of broken shell in it. That would also like that's like you know infinite tirades from Dave Chang. So there was an extern years ago uh that Nick Wong saw do this uh actually be he was so frightened that he saw this he Nick stopped him so it didn't go out to the customers as far as I know so don't I don't want anyone to think that it went out to the customer.
+
+[10:32] Saw the dude rinse an oyster under the water to make sure there was no shell in it. Can you imagine that? Even I might lose my cool on that. I mean, it takes a lot for me to lose my my cool at anyone other than Nastasha. Like people will think I get worked up, but like honestly, like to actually lose my cool at someone I don't know, that takes a lot, right?
+
+[10:51] Yeah. You ever see me lose my cool on someone I don't know? I don't think so. No, right? No.
+
+[10:56] Anyway, cryosucking. Uh the other question uh Alvin had was uh he's having problems with this rotavap. Rhodovap is a rotary evaporator. It's used for low temperature uh well, it's it's it's a distillation rig that you use in laboratories, and it's got a couple of benefits. One, it does things at low temperature because it's under a vacuum, and when you put things under a vacuum, you can boil at lower temperatures, which means that you don't have any heat damage to very fragile flavors like herbs.
+
+[11:19] The other thing is uh the other two things is is it's very gentle, uh very gentle, not just from a heat standpoint, but just gentle in terms of it doesn't have any a lot of bumping and boiling, so it's it's nice that way. And uh two, three, it happens under a vacuum. And since it's under a vacuum, there's no oxidative effects when you're doing it. So it's it's very good for a number of things like that. Uh but if you're going to do legal evaporation, even illegal evaporation, I advocate using a cold finger because you want the maximum difference between your condenser and your boiler to get the maximum recovery of flavor volatiles from things like herbs and whatnot.
+
+[11:55] Because remember, we're not doing primary distillation with the rotary evaporator. We're not trying to get rid of impurities like you would with uh a column still. So we're trying to get maximum capture of our stuff back in a rotary evaporator, typically. So we want really cold things. So I use liquid nitrogen uh, but uh because I have a lot of it uh in in a thing called a cold finger condenser.
+
+[12:12] But Alvin's using uh, he says he's using dry ice and acetone, and he says that uh the condenser's getting saturated. First of all, I do not recommend using dry ice acetone in food applications because uh I don't want acetone anywhere near uh the stuff I'm working with. And also, you're gonna get a high like a kite if you have a whole boatload of acetone sitting around and it warms up and starts volatilizing. I don't I don't really like using acetone in the kitchen, so I wouldn't do that. I would use uh dry ice alcohol.
+
+[12:41] You can use denatured alcohol as long as you're sure it doesn't get anywhere near your food, or you could pick up some like Everclear 195 or something like that, and that stuff's fine. I would use that instead of uh acetone. The other thing is is that uh the dry I mean dry ice that's this is a classic lab way to do it, dry ice and alcohol. But for some reason, and a stash you backed me up on this. Whenever we do uh events where we try the dry ice in the condenser, it never seems to be as smooth or work as nicely as when we do the liquid nitrogen in the condenser.
+
+[13:09] For for some reason, I don't I I'm not sure why, but we always get a lot more boiling and it's just it's always a lot messier and things seem to get stuck more. And for some reason, I mean dry ice is extremely powerful, and uh I tend also to dry for some reason when we do the dry ice alcohol, it tends to gunk up uh my vacuum lines more because when you're getting when you oversaturate in something that's cold like that, you start getting uh vapor, moisture vapor, or or distillate vapor in your vacuum line or near the point where the vacuum line attaches to the condenser, it can clog up. Once it clogs up, your thing you gets uh saturated out, you can't get a vacuum level in there anymore. And the only way to fix it is to is to quickly put a blast of air through your vacuum line to clear it out by using the differential and pressure. But when you do that, then uh you know you you have all sorts of problems.
+
+[13:57] So once that happens, it's very hard to get your distillation really right back on track. And uh so I find that typically one way to stop that from happening is to always start your distillation before you chill your uh before you chill your thing down. Get the get your get a a little bit of a vacuum so that's not a great uh you know heat conductor. Get a little bit of a vacuum going in your condenser before you add the dry ice and the alcohol. Don't put dry ice and alcohol in the condenser and then start your distillation run.
+
+[14:26] Uh, but it's very difficult, and I really think that liquid nitrogen, even though it's not as powerful as dry ice, uh, and so therefore it would cost more in the long and and you have to keep refilling it. I just find that it's a lot easier for me to for me to work with. I've we we haven't had as good a luck with dry ice. Anyway, I hope that helps. Uh should we go to our first commercial break?
+
+[14:44] Sure. We're coming back from our first commercial break in a moment. Cooking issues! Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a local?
+
+[15:21] Our Northeast Regional Forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their products sold at our stores. Whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution methods, she's helping some of the areas's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods Market stores. Today, New York.
+
+[15:51] Tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foodsmarket.com. Wow, Joe. I like that. I like that in the back of that.
+
+[16:13] It's very I don't know that it's Whole Foods sounding, but it's like, you know, right? What do you think? I don't know if that's exactly Whole Foods, but uh Yeah, definitely threw me for a loop. Yeah. That's that is that uh is that is that Jack's work?
+
+[16:27] No, that's not Jack. That's uh actually uh Rachel Wharton's boyfriend is in this band, and he does the theme song for her for her show, too. So nice, nice cool, right? All right, well, welcome back to cooking issues, calling your questions live to 7184972128. That's 724972128.
+
+[16:43] Tom wrote in and said, Hi, Dave, and all this not Nastasha now, you're the all too. She's like, I don't care. I don't care. I'm reading my tweets. Actually, you know what?
+
+[16:51] She's not because Nastasha hates all sorts of social media. She detests it. She detests social things in general, actually. But especially media related to being social, right? It's true.
+
+[17:02] Yeah. She also likes ordering shoes online, but hates it when other people do it. I died ordering shoes. Oh, yeah? Yeah.
+
+[17:09] Hold on. You're right. She's ordering jackets. She's literally she's sitting here, she always says that she's doing work. She's sitting here.
+
+[17:16] I never said she's sitting, she's sitting here ordering jack. Is that what you're doing? Like with See, here's the thing. Nastasha all day has her face in the computer. She's like, you don't know what I do, you don't know what I do.
+
+[17:25] The first time I ever went and actually took a load of a computer, she's ordering jackets. And not just any kind of jacket, like like early 90s beige barn jackets. No, it's like J. Cruz style. So what the hell does that have to do with anything we're doing right now on cooking issues?
+
+[17:40] Nothing. Nothing at all. I'm listening to you, though. Uh-huh. What was my last question about?
+
+[17:46] Oh! You just Harold McGee me. Hey, yeah, do you like this? Well. Okay, good.
+
+[17:52] Nastasha has this thing that she says I ask questions and then don't wait for the answer. Well, we don't have all day. It is a 45-minute program. Poor Harold. Crazy.
+
+[18:00] Nastash is a crazy person. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Nastasha, crazy person. Tom writes in. I've recently started making sourdough bread and some other fermented goods. My wife loves the new food, but can't stand the vinegar flies.
+
+[18:12] I put up with them until recently when they started attacking food mid-prep. Traps do trap flies, especially the ones I baited with water and soap to break the surface tension. Pear slices and sprouted, then roasted barley. But I don't want to cook for flies. That is a lot of work.
+
+[18:27] Sprouted and roasted barley? First of all, I hate sprouts. Yeah, we did sprouts and that's a test sprouts. Everyone out there, I know that a lot of you like sprouts. I don't like them.
+
+[18:34] I don't even like sprouts that everyone likes. I said this many times before. Please don't serve me a pea shoot. I know you like it. I know everyone else likes it.
+
+[18:41] I do not like it. Anyway, uh, I mean, I like to sprout barley, you know, uh to not to sprout it, but to germinate it. I mean, that's like the basis of many of the foods uh I mean foods, drinks that I like in the world are based on the notion of sprouting barley. But uh yeah, uh, you know, but don't uh I should say germinating it. Anyway, because you know, when you're doing malt, you don't want the uh the acro spire to come all the way out of the uh out of the barley because then it's eaten up too much of the too much of the carbo is used, and you don't have enough left over to make your delicious, delicious beer or your delicious, delicious whiskey.
+
+[19:13] So don't do that. Anyway, um I don't want to cook for flies, and it seems like the trap attracts and then kills extra flies, leaving roughly the same amount to be a nuisance. When I put the ferments in the fridge, the flies abate rapidly. So there isn't some other problem in the background. What do you do?
+
+[19:29] What can I do? What do professionals do? I can't imagine flies would be tolerated in a good restaurant or factory. Thanks, Tom. P.S.
+
+[19:37] Uh Dave, did you take any philosophy classes from Michael Delaroca at Yale? He is my dissertation director. If you did take his class, would you give him a shout on an air, uh, shout out on air? Well, I'm happy to give him a shout-out, but no, uh, I don't think he joined the uh faculty at Yale before I graduated. I graduated in ninety-three and I looked him up on the internet and uh his dissertation was in I think 91.
+
+[20:00] So I don't think he was on the faculty uh at Yale when I was there. And actually, I don't know, I haven't looked at their faculty recently to see whether any of the old guard from uh back in those days was uh is still, you know, there. I'm sure some of a lot of them are still alive. I had a bunch of young young people teaching us, but um I don't know if they're still there. But I'm gonna give a shout out to anyone doing their uh philosophy dissertation at Yale.
+
+[20:22] Shout out. I love that. Man, like you know, again, whatever. I mean, uh I looked them up uh uh uh uh, you know, Professor uh Della Roca is does a field that uh I didn't do so much in kind of early modern philosophy stuff. I was more I I I did two s two very different sides of the coin.
+
+[20:39] I spent most of my time worried about Plato and uh Nietzsche. I ended up writing a whole boatload of my papers on Nietzsche. Nietzsche is designed for like an 18 to 21 year old angst ridden philosophy student at an Ivy League institution. Like the writing is just like I I need to go back and read it, see whether I still like it. It'll be interesting whether 41 year old me has gets the same kind of feelings from reading Nietzsche Nietzsche as well.
+
+[21:03] No, crap on my essays. What the hell did I know? I was 20. But I mean, I don't know, the actual work. Go back and read Nietzsche.
+
+[21:09] Have you ever gone back, Nastasha, and read some of the old stuff that you read in college to see whether it's still like whether you have any feeling about it at all? I mean, the the the the what I'm worried about is I go back and I read it and I just feel nothing. Wouldn't that be weird to have spent like all that time and then go back and feel nothing? Of course, yeah, it served its purpose. Whatever.
+
+[21:27] Here is a story. So vinegar flies are similar to what are a named f uh fruit flies or drain flies. They're all different variants of the uh Drosphila like melangaster, you know, the famous melanchaster, the ones that they uh did all the genetics experiments on? Uh fruit flies. They're the same thing, and I hate them.
+
+[21:44] I detest them. I would why I'm sure that they serve a great ecological purpose, but I would wipe them off the face of the earth. I I I I absolutely detest them. And they're the bane of bars' existence, because uh, you know, so actually, just this uh apropos of nothing, but if if you own a bar and you watch someone come in and do a health inspection of your bar, what they do is they go and they grab your bottles of booze, they swirl them and put a flashlight in the bottom of them, and they're looking for dead fruit flies on the inside of your uh bottles. Now the health inspector that we had didn't have the brains to realize that we're not gonna have that problem because we don't have speed pores on our bottles, so there's no way for flies to get into our bottles.
+
+[22:25] Also, we were saying we weren't sure if it's actually technically illegal to do an infusion of fruit flies. If you raised food grade fruit flies, could you do a fruit fly infusion and have a bottle that was totally full of fruit flies? Like a hundred percent just fruit flies and grain alcohol as an infusion. Aside from the fact that infusions might be technically illegal, would there be a further b uh a further ill illegality as a result of the fruit flies themselves? It it's unclear to me.
+
+[22:50] We're not gonna do it, please. I've just I'm k half well I'm I'm a hundred percent kidding, but uh just wondering about whether it's the fruit flies themselves that are inherently some sort of the health hazard, right? Right. I mean the health hazard from a fruit fly is that it it might land on something that's incredibly gross and then land on your stuff. I want to make I told you I want to make little t-shirts for flies that say my last landing pad was poop.
+
+[23:09] You know what I mean? You want to make a t shirt before a flies. Yeah or somehow like you know maybe a little video where a fly is saying you know because a fly is like yeah it could right yeah my last landing pad was poop. I mean that's the problem with flies. Not fruit flies but flies.
+
+[23:24] Anyway so off the off the topic. I would look up the Ohio State University extension fact sheet uh entomology on vinegar, pumice or small fruit flies, uh drosphila multiple different species. That's the the you know the genus is uh dress fila. Okay. Here's the issue.
+
+[23:39] They live anywhere there is stuff they can feed on. So the obvious one that we think of is uh fermenting uh products, fermenting fruit they're attracted um to that kind of a thing. Liquids, also garbage, also mops that you have out that are uh mops that are that are wet dish rags that are wet, uh sponges that are wet, uh any garbage uh that you know is is lying around. Now the life cycle of them is you know between seven and and fourteen days so it takes a while and they it takes a while for them to grow. So most likely you have a source somewhere uh that is uh sitting around for long enough for it for these flies to uh grow.
+
+[24:21] Now do you want to know what the most likely culprit I think is for something like this is if you if you're not keeping a wet mop around and you're not keeping fruit out, right? And you're not having these kinds of problems. Drains. It's your drains that are the most likely place where these uh where these things uh are are are coming from. Or they're coming from outside.
+
+[24:40] Most screen mesh, most window screen mesh is not big enough. I mean, sorry it's not small enough to stop these flies from coming in. So uh all of the uh you know the uh the sites, you know, the technical sites on it, you need what's called a 16 mesh or finer, which is finer than most uh screen mesh to exclude uh these flies from coming into your uh kitchen. Also, they can enter through uh they they are attracted to light at night. So if you leave a light on and you have a screen open, they're attracted into the kitchen, and they'll then find a mop, a rag, uh uh, or any place like this to uh to go.
+
+[25:16] Now, the drains are a problem because you can get a biofilm, which is like a layer of slimy gunk that inhabits the inside of the drains all the way down into where the trap is in the drain. And normal washing uh even with hot water isn't enough to kill and or wipe these things out because the contact time is not long enough. And so what you need to do if you want to see whether this is where they're coming from is uh and this is uh you know, I read this on several of the technical sites, is you want to put tape over a portion of the drain, leaving enough like so air can get in and out and then overnight, and then come in the next day and see whether or not there's any flies stuck to the underside of the tape, which would be indicative that the flies are exiting from the drain pipe in order to lay their eggs and do and do their nasty, nasty work. So um so how do you get it out of the drains? You can uh you you can ru like every couple of months you can remove your drain uh your your the actual cover on the drain, take a scrub brush and bleach and scrub that stuff out, then pour uh a bio uh, you know, an enzymatic bio cleaner that will that will eat away at the uh coating that's on the inside of the drain pipe, and then flush multiple times with boiling water or uh and and then you know periodically pour boiling water down your drains to make sure that you're uh getting rid of it um so that's that's one way to do it also covering up uh you know covering up any source where they might go in that's wet not keeping any of that stuff in your in your kitchen remember they're attract attracted to light and to moisture uh now here's another good one you can use uh insecticides like pyrethrines to kill these suckers but you don't necessarily want to have those things uh laying around something you might not uh be aware of but that uh I I like quite a bit is uh a product called gentrol now gentrol is uh uh uh something called an insect growth regulator the actual active ingredient in gentrol and you can buy this at a lot of stores you can buy it I think on the Amazon uh is uh hydroprene and hydroprene and you you can look it up um just look up hydroprene if you look up gentrol you'll get a bunch of like things trying to sell it to you if you look up hydroprene H Y D R O P R E N E you'll get uh websites that talk about the actual product itself uh what it is is it is a hormone analog so insects use uh different hormones to try and s you know try and uh signal within their bodies that they need to move to the next level of uh either growth a different instar if they're in a in a nymph phase or uh or to lay eggs any so all parts of their reproductive and growth cycles are regulated by hormones the same way we are fortunately for us uh mammals and insects have different hormones and so we can use uh a hormone uh and it's not the actual hormone that's in the insects, but it's an it's analogous to it it.
+
+[28:04] It affects the same systems that the real hormones do. And we can essentially provide uh birth control to insects. So you and the the cool thing about this hydroprene is gentrol is it's totally food safe. Uh and it's not a human or mammalian hormone at all. So you can spray it on surfaces that are typically difficult to totally eradicate all water from porous wood surfaces, um, things like that, things that can trap uh trap and hold moisture and are great breeding places for these these wretched flies.
+
+[28:35] You can spray gentrol on them, you know, uh a couple of times. It lasts for a good long while in there, and it will provide continuous birth control for flies such that they will not be able to reproduce. Okay? So uh, you know, we we use this, and and by the way, it works on uh almost all uh insects. Uh go to read if you want to read a uh scholarly paper on it, go read Hydroprene Mode of Action, Current Status in Stored Product, Pest Management, Insect Insect Resistance, and Future Prospects by uh SM Mohandas.
+
+[29:08] That's available, it's in the magazine Crop Protection 2006, and it's available for free on the USDA.gov uh website. Uh and it goes through what it does uh and all of the uh studies of it. Um and it's it's good stuff, it's gentrol. It also wipes out cockroaches and it also wipes out moths. So, you know, uh, and I think it also might work on flower beetles and things like that.
+
+[29:30] So if you're having some sort of hard to crack infestation that's probably due to some thing somewhere in your kitchen you can't find that these suckers are attracted to, uh spray this on it, they'll go back to where they came from, wherever they lay eggs, and those eggs will not be fertile. So it's uh it's good stuff. Hope that what do you think? Good? Good job.
+
+[29:47] Do you like the gentral, right? Did you ever use it? Did you take some, you don't do you have any problems at your house? Really? Even though you live in Hell's Kitchen?
+
+[29:54] Hell's Kitchen's like, you know, it's like the older of a building you live in, or the more people in it, the harder it is to kind of eradicate these things. We once had uh uh, you know, I've I've had it work wonders on cockroaches at Gentral. I mean, I like it, and uh you know it's nice to find something because I have two kids in my house, so I don't want to spray a lot of poisonous stuff around, you know. Uh I mean I used to have no pets, now we have the two hamsters. Did I ever say on air that the one hamster escaped?
+
+[30:19] My kids had the hamster, the hamster escaped, but another hamster and the other hamster showed up like a week and a half later, like the prodigal hamster. He was totally emaciated and messed up and like you know, like like you know, on a forced march kind of a situation. My wife saw him and was like, ah, because she thought it was some sort of crazy road. She's like, Oh my god, Rhino, you've come back, and gets rhino, and and like we had two cages, a mini storage cage, right? For the uh and the big one, then the new hamster Sulu had the ran the run of of both hamster cages, right?
+
+[30:48] And then all of a sudden Rhino comes back, and Sulu gets shoved in the small cage and rhino gets his big cage back because the hamsters can't live together because they might, you know, rip each other to shreds. And we were all like, holy crap, and we're like, wow, it's just like the prodigal son from the Bible. He can leave, he can do what he wants. Hey Dad, how's the c house come? You're so much nicer to the one that did all this other crap.
+
+[31:10] He's like, I always had you as a son, but this son I had lost and now I have him again. What? Kind of message is that? Crazy. You're following it.
+
+[31:21] Look, here's the thing. I well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Uh now look, i i for those of you that that aren't parents or have never been or are young or whatever, okay. When you read the prodigal son in you know section of the Bible, you're like, that is some load of bull.
+
+[31:35] What the hell is that? You know what I mean? You're like, this is horse crap. But then once you become a parent, you understand it. Really?
+
+[31:41] Why? Because it's true. You think you've lost something and nothing's worse than the loss. And then when it comes back, it's like, ho you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[31:51] It doesn't mean you give them the bigger cake. Go kill the fatted carrot. The prodigal hamster is back. Hey, dude. I think you have a caller.
+
+[32:00] Oh, yeah. Caller, you're on the air. I come choose the crew. It's Brian and Susanko. Oh, hey, Brian, how you doing?
+
+[32:09] Good. Okay, my question is, I'm looking for your tips to make the best pancakes and waffles. Ooh. What are your pri what are your criteria for for a good pancake and waffle? Because the answer depends.
+
+[32:24] Okay, so not soggy, uh yeah, got a little little crunch on the outside. It's got some f um some fluffiness to it. Uh and I'm also interested in in in maybe going the savory route also. So both both for breakfast and uh and um and for for dinner. So for dinner, most people on their pancake style things will Korean with yeah with kimchi or something like that.
+
+[32:54] Right. I mean they'll th like so most people want a different texture on a dinner pancake than they want. They want usually more crepe like on on a dinner style thing. And the the secret to crepe like things is to let the batter rest a long time, not only because of hydration issues, but uh to make sure all the air is out because it's very hard to get a good spread on a crepe if there's any air left over in the batter. Okay.
+
+[33:18] But crape like means thin. Thin, right. Now, but if you want to do standard pancakes and waffles, if you do, if you research old recipes on pancakes and waffles, you'll find that the major difference between them, in fact, in some ways, the only difference you need to pay attention to between them, is that a waffle recipe is going to contain a significant amount of oil or oil-like thing like butter, okay? And the reason is is you need something to uh you need something to reduce the uh sticking to the sides of the of the waffle iron. So if you try to do a lower fat version of a waffle, you'll s you'll find that uh it just sticks like a like like nobody's business.
+
+[34:04] Modern day waffle irons have a Teflon coating on the inside of them and are much better at releasing and so don't require as much fat in them as the old school recipes. And so you'll see a lot of more modern recipes really tone the fat level down because the fat level can be quite high. We're talking uh, you know, like over well over half of a cup of uh half a cup, well like two sticks of butter worth, yeah, well over a cup, right? Anyway, in uh in like a four and a half cup flour recipe. So you're um a significant amount of I find though that I like it better with that high amount of uh fat in it.
+
+[34:38] Now, I used to try various different things in my pancakes and waffles. So I use the same long story short, I use the same recipe because I'd rather have the more fat in my pancake recipe than the less fat in the waffle. It makes it easier to remember. So I use the same batter for both pancakes and for waffles. So uh the recipe I also what I do is I I hydrate a certain portion of the flour in uh my liquids before I before I start working.
+
+[35:03] I use buttermilk because I like the results I get. So the recipe that I actually use at home, it's not really measured, so I'll have to give it to you. Is I use uh a quart of uh buttermilk, right? The regular cultured like buttermilk, which isn't actually buttermilk, but that's what everyone calls buttermilk. I use a quart of that, five uh whole uh uh I use extra large eggs, I don't know why, but I always have five extra large eggs.
+
+[35:27] Um I then add uh a portion of the flour. I usually add like a cup and a half. My wife, and I actually like the taste of it, so I the uh if I'm gonna use a non-traditional flour at this point, I add it then. And I use a lot of times use a mixture of oats and/or buckwheat flour and/or cornmeal and/or you know, some little bit, but don't you can't use too much wheat charm, some of that, some or whole wheat, all different kinds or uh or uh chipati flour at this point. I I add it now, right?
+
+[35:56] At at this early stage, along with uh vanilla, which I usually use vanilla at that point, and if I'm gonna use it rum and also sugar to taste to make it uh a little bit sweeter. And that's what I would omit for a savory recipe, okay? Uh blend that thing together and allow the hydration to start. There's so much uh there's so much um there's so much moisture in that that you're not gonna develop any gluten. Don't worry about and I hit it with a stick blender to get it really well blended at that point.
+
+[36:24] You don't need to worry about gluten development at this point. I melt uh I also salt, sorry, I add some salt to it. I then melt What about the chemical leaveners? Uh yeah, I add that later. So then I add, so I let that hydrate for a little while.
+
+[36:37] Then I melt uh two sticks of butter, which is I guess a cup, or mixture of oil depending on what you're doing, if you don't want the butter. Uh I I mix I blitz that in, then I add a portion of the remaining flour, and then it sounds like a lot, but four and a half teaspoons of baking s uh powder. And uh I used to only use four. Uh and I used to also make a thinner recipe with the flour I added, but I decided I like my pancakes thicker, and so I add a slightly more baking uh powder. I take it up to four and a half, and I add a little more flour to make a stiffer.
+
+[37:10] If you want it thinner and you want the pancakes a little thinner and not quite as fluffed out, more less cakey, then take it down to four teaspoons and um don't uh add as much flour at the end. So four and a half teaspoons baking powder and two teaspoons soda to counteract the acidity from the buttermilk and to co uh do extra leavening. Then I stir in enough uh flour to get the consistency, the texture I want, and I cook it. I cook them on a large uh crepe maker actually, because I have a crepe maker from France. Uh and uh what I usually do is I'll hit it with a little bit of a high initial heat to start the crust going, 'cause it's also there's a big wallop of uh of a heat load on your pan because there's all that moisture sticking to it.
+
+[37:50] And then I'll reduce the heat down, wait for the bubbles when they break. I can see that I've cooked enough through my pancake for a good flip time, flip and and cook out. That's how I that's my standard pancake. And I use the same recipe for waffles. I tend not to try any of the more comp I I've done them many times, but I don't do a lot of the more complicated stuff like separately whip the egg whites and uh and then fold them in because I find that it reduces the structure on the inside of the waffle or pancake to the extent that it's not what I'm looking for anymore.
+
+[38:17] Does that make sense? That makes sense. What about things or what is what you know, if I want to do banana nut or add some fruit fruit or something in there? And then all and then also what about yeasted? What it w what if I want to go with with with yeasted and and um put put some yeast into the overnight thing?
+
+[38:33] Right. There's two kinds of yeasted. There's people that add yeast just for flavor, but then are doing standard rises on it. And uh, you know, that you can do whenever you want. The overnight ones, they they taste great.
+
+[38:43] They're they're um they tend uh they they have a a very unique flavor. I actually really like them, but um not everyone's uh a fan of that kind of uh a yeasted flavor, but I think they're great. I also used to uh I used to use uh you know, it's well so sourdough that's not right for bread baking, i.e. it's too far gone, it's very sour. But I used to keep that stuff around, not and then I would I would try to reconstitute it into a real bread starter to do bread, but I would use that starter as uh as just an addition to sourdough uh pancakes, where then it's functioning a lot more like the buttermilk.
+
+[39:20] That's also delicious. But remember, like those kind of preferments are gonna change the structure of the flour a little bit so the the pancakes won't have quite the same texture as a non-fermented pancake will. Not better, not worse, different. You know what I mean? So they'll have a little bit of that glossier inner crumb structure that you're gonna get from a sourdough than you would from a normal normal kind of a a pancake thing.
+
+[39:41] As regards fruits because it's more gluten development? Uh or I think because it breaks I think because it breaks things down, the the acidity is uh is uh messing with the with the structure, I think the same way that it's actually weakening it. Uh, but uh uh you know, I would think. I haven't done the research on it. I mean it's uh that's just off off the top of my head.
+
+[39:59] On fruits though, uh I tend not to mix fruits into the batter unless they are completely dry. I don't want them to bleed out, and also it's harder to dose them in. So I always add them to the uh I put the pancake down, I'll then add the fruit in the correct correct dosage and pattern to the pancake. And then because I'm extremely anal, I will take a spoon and paint a thin layer of batter over the over each piece of fruit before I flip it. That's how I do it.
+
+[40:25] Uh I used to do this also uh with uh I used to use frozen blueberries all the time in my uh in waffles. Uh let me tell you this, it works great, except for expect to buy a new waffle iron every couple of months because the blueberry burns onto the surface of the Teflon, and it is uh they are never the same again. And so eventually your your waffle iron is gonna start sticking, and you could sit there with uh with like a wooden chopstick and try to scrape that stuff off as much as you want to, but those waffle irons never come back to the same condition after you've stopped, you know, after you've started putting fruit into them. Now, maybe worth it to you, and I thought it was worth it for a while, but you know, the last time I I had my waffles start sticking uncontrollably, I was like, I'm just not doing this anymore. I haven't even replaced my waffle iron.
+
+[41:12] My sons are like, Dad, can you buy a waffle iron again? I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I'll get around to it to buying a good waffle iron. My last one was one of the uh flip guys, the ones that emulated the professional style, the flip ones. The flip ones are actually designed to have a much uh more watery dough, and they're designed to to cook a lot faster and to have a lot more of an empty inside. That's why they flip, right?
+
+[41:31] You flip it so that you can get the equal uh strike structure on your side. But even so, I used a standard recipe in them and they they work great. I love the the flip guys because they're so much faster. I mean, no one's designed the perfect waffle iron yet. What you really want is a waffle iron that that you know plugs into a 220 source and can make four real-size waffles at once because unless you're feeding only yourself, let's face it, who cooks waffles for themselves?
+
+[41:54] It's a huge pain in the butt to crank out enough waffles for everyone and then have everyone eat at the same time. Don't you agree on this? Agree. There's always gonna be some that are gonna be more crisp than others. Yeah.
+
+[42:06] Yeah, I know I hate that. May I, you know, but the problem is people don't have the power uh, you know, in their house to typically do it. I once invested in a bunch of old cast iron waffle irons, the ones that make the really thin, weird little waffles. That's what I have. Yeah, but in they always stuck a little bit.
+
+[42:22] They were never as release friendly as the other ones, but they did allow me, because I have six burners, I could crank out a whole bunch of them. Do you like the little cast iron guys? Uh it's I I like it. It's it's pretty well this one's pretty well greased. Right.
+
+[42:36] Um yeah I I find that it it has i it trans once it heats up and it's cranking it's it's it's going pretty well. I like it. Yeah nice. Well maybe I'll give it a uh a try again. It's certainly the only way to get out a bunch of waffles at once is to fire up a bunch of burners with a bunch of cast iron.
+
+[42:52] Well let's let me ask you more about the savory one because I got I had a recipe for a kimchi pancake that um it it the it was um half potato starch half all purpose flour. Right. Um and it seemed to crisp up pretty pretty nicely but it's a very different kind of deal because it's got a lot of a lot of kimchi in there and and a f and a fair amount of veg. Right. So um uh you know do you do you have any thoughts on that on uh on that for the savory application well what what did you not like about the texture of it?
+
+[43:29] No I I I actually like it. I don't know if if uh you know if I can take um if I can do that that uh that one to one with the the potato starch and and uh um and the all purpose flour and do use it for other kinds of um other kinds of things. I mean, probably it's it's interesting. I've never done that high of a ratio. I used to all of my cookies uh I used to bake with a like a uh uh a five to one AP to cornstarch base to soften them.
+
+[43:59] You know, I mean I mean probably they're adding the cornstarch there to soften the pancake up a little bit so that the actual structure of it's not too glutinous, it's not too tough. Uh which would I guess help if you were going to do a lot of um whipping or beating. But again, I'm also using a lot of low gluten stuff in my current pancakes, so I never have a tough problem with them getting tough. I'm using a lot of things like oats and and stuff like that. At fairly high usages.
+
+[44:24] So you could probab um you know uh usage rates that is, so you could uh on a flour basis. So I'm sure you could uh I'm sure you could use it for whatever you want. If you like the texture of that, I like I say I I've done that much of of non-glutinous flowers, but I've never used that much corn starch. It should hydrate relatively quickly. You know.
+
+[44:44] Oh, potato. Um the texture is closer to like uh like uh a lotka, like a potato pancake. Huh. Um than a more than a kind of uh sweet pancake, like a breakfast pancake. Right.
+
+[44:56] Potato starch is weird. I would expect it to be dense and very moist. Uh well the the inside is is is that way, but the outside crisps up very nicely. Yeah. It's interesting.
+
+[45:09] I'll have to do some uh do where what was the source of the recipe? There was uh it's from the New York Times website. Actually it's uh uh based on a rest uh some restaurant in in in Manhattan, I think. Huh. Well, I'll try to send you the link?
+
+[45:25] Yeah, yeah, send us the link on the shawcia and pass it on. Cool, thanks a lot. Okay, thank you. Bye. Derek writes in with a question.
+
+[45:34] Uh hi, I've listened to many shows over the last couple of years and I've heard a great deal of advice on cooking low temperature, especially beef and chicken. I don't recall much advice for lamb though. So as I have a two-pound lamb shoulder roast in my possession, I'd like to ask for some pointers. My plan is to cook it at 60 degrees. AKA 140 Fahrenheit, which by the way, people, I've said this a million times.
+
+[45:53] Remember that one. Always that like if you remember no other Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion, remember 60 to 140. In my circulator, chill, re-therm, and finish in a 450 degree or 500 degree oven for service. I like my lamb medium. It's 60 one.
+
+[46:06] I like my lamb medium at 60 degrees Celsius and appropriate temperature. Uh uh it's what I'm uh it's what I aim for when I'm oven baking or oven roasting, but I wonder if you have a di different recommendation for long cooking in a circulator. Uh two, I'm planning on cooking it for six to eight hours, and I want to balance between breaking down connective tissue and not making it too mutton-y. Is this long enough? Next, at what temperature should I re-therm it to get it warm without overcooking it during the final oven browning?
+
+[46:32] Um 130, for instance. Is that a good uh is that a good thing? Uh in other words, the internal temperature to re-therm it to. Um thanks, Derek. Okay.
+
+[46:44] First of all, to me, sixty like I looked up uh online. To me, sixty seems uh a little bit high. Uh look at some mean a little bit high for cooking for that long. The longer you cook it, the kind of lower you can get the temperature down. And I mean if unless it's strictly speaking a color issue gonna go up.
+
+[47:00] Sixty is not too high. I would try to I mean I would do it at fifty seven or fifty-eight, but sixty is probably gonna be fine. You try it, it's not gonna it's not it's not gonna be horrible. If you really want it more on the on the well not well, but on the medium side, sixty might be a a good number. I don't think that um I don't think that six to eight hours is gonna be enough.
+
+[47:21] You're probably gonna want to go longer, like twelve to twenty four, uh at sixty. But uh, you know, your problem is is that you uh it depends on how tender you want it, right? So the longer lamb usually doesn't need to take as much cooking as uh other things because lamb it's lamb, so it's it's younger. So the connective tissue is easier to break down than it is in uh in an older animal. Um so it typically doesn't take as long a time as you would with uh with an older animal, but um it's still probably gonna take longer than six to eight hours.
+
+[47:52] You'll get some tenderizing effect at 60 for six to eight hours, definitely, but it's gonna be the difference of taking something, let's go back to steak land, it's gonna be the difference of taking something from skirt steak texture to rib steak texture. Okay, not the difference of taking something from uh, you know, an undone braise to a done braise. So you know, it might be tender enough for you, but the comp like if it's going to be if you're gonna do something at 60, so you're gonna do it at that high a temperature, I think you needed to get it really, really tender in order for like that level of doneness to be pleasant, in which case you're gonna need to go longer, like like eight nick twelve to twenty-four. I would probably cook it long uh as high as twenty-four. I think that the muttony flavor that's gonna come out is gonna come out by eight hours anyway, if you're having a piece that's gonna get one of those gamey muttony flavors.
+
+[48:41] So I don't think that the extra twelve hours is gonna accentuate that cooking that much anyway. Usually when a meat protein is gonna start throwing off a gamey, livery, muttony uh taste, it's happening in the first four or five, six hours. So by the time you get to eight or nine, I think that flavor's already developed. Not that it won't uh intensify uh over time. Now, if you're gonna chill this guy all the way down, I think that uh, you know, I still think that it's only two pounds.
+
+[49:13] So I would do it in a very high temp oven to brown up the outside and don't worry about how warm it's gonna get in the middle. It it you could throw it into uh you could re-therm it 130, what's that in Fahrenheit? Could someone do that? I mean, in Celsius. Could someone do the conversions like Celsius to Fahrenheit for me?
+
+[49:31] 130. Yeah. What is that? 54? Yeah, 54 for a 60.
+
+[49:41] I mean, I would do it even lower. I would re-therm it at like 52. I would bring it up uh at like uh 52, uh up to temperature for like half hour, maybe something like this. Depends on how thick you are. Go to Sous vide or whatnot and find out how long it's gonna take to get up to those temperatures, up to like 50 in that range, and then sear it off uh from there, or even slightly before it gets up to that when the center is like in the 40s or the center's in like the you know, like in the mid-40s.
+
+[50:10] You'll get a good roast on the outside and you're not gonna overcook it. Um that's what I would that's what I would recommend. What do you think? Or you can just pull it, you can just drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour if you don't want to chill it down, drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour, throw ice cubes, drop the temperature of the circulator to 50, pull it directly from the circulator and throw it into the and throw it into a hot oven, and you should be alright. Okay.
+
+[50:33] Uh one last uh question from Rob Traz. I think it's one last. I think I only have one last. Uh hello, when I cook low temperature or sous vide at home, I typically serve all that I make or chill sealed bags to re-therm them for a separate meal. Typically, I follow the 72-hour rule for uh five degrees Celsius, 41 degrees Fahrenheit storage, as per the FDA time and TEP standards for sous vide in my domestic refrigerator or freeze for longer storage.
+
+[50:57] If I follow the storage, uh the FDA storage guidelines, then sear or retherm the food, can I safely hold the leftovers for the next uh day or two under refrigeration? Uh do the FDA sous vide standards, uh pages one through 186 in Modernist Cuisine only or no volume one, page 186, I guess, for modernist cuisine, only pertaining to the time spent in the anaerobic environment, i.e. until the bag is opened, do these restrictions go away if I use Ziplocks instead of vacuum bags? I have some duck confie sous vide at 180 for eight hours, children stored in the freezer for a month, and I would like to use it to make Rietes. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate.
+
+[51:34] Thanks again for all your help, Rob Trapas. Well uh that is a that that is a really uh really good question. So it If you're storing it for a month, right, you're gonna want to have your storage as per the storage things all the way down at 38 Fahrenheit. However, with uh confie you're going to cook it, right? So what they're worried about on that probably is a botulism uh problem.
+
+[52:00] Uh and you know if you're gonna reheat it enough um I think you're going to be alright. You're gonna cook it, you're gonna recook it and make Riyettes with it. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate. If you pull something out of a bag and you consider safe it should be alright to to redo it normally. There's two issues going on and you rightly point them out here is one is you're worried about uh you know anaerobic things uh going wrong in your bag i.e botulism or mic or facultative bacteria microaerobic stuff like listeria going on.
+
+[52:32] You're gonna wipe out the listeria. So you're worried about things that are spore forming, like if you do a good job cooking, so if you're actually cooking it properly. Uh so you're worried more about things like uh botulism and um you you're still I'm not uh I you know what Rob? Like for some reason my brain is totally fried. I'm trying to parse through everything that you're that you're saying.
+
+[52:51] And I when it comes to safety, I want to make a hundred percent reliable judgment as to what I'm doing. So I'm gonna go ahead and reread your question, because I when I read it, I thought I could answer, because usually I can answer most safety things off the top of my head. But I want to make sure I give you exactly the right r uh advice on the order of what you're doing, things and where they're gonna go. So I'm gonna hold off on finishing your question for uh for next time. And on my way out, we have a question from Mike Cheshevsky.
+
+[53:15] Says, oh, by the way, he says PS because I know they're gonna cut us off before I'm done. He says, You guys need to have a TV show. From your from your lips to uh the I don't know, some producers' ears. The problem is very few people want to actually do a show the way that uh you know that we would want to do a show, which is I like to just go I just like to go crazy on particular subjects for a long period of time, and most people they don't they don't like that so much, right? Right.
+
+[53:39] Right. It turns out turns out they don't like it so much. Uh anyway, my question concerns dairy products and heat. I sometimes add dairy to hot dishes. For instance, I might finish a curry with a bit of yogurt or add sour cream to a paprika, which I haven't had one in a long time.
+
+[53:52] They're delicious. Anyway, uh sometimes the dairy curdles and looks gross. It does look gross, you're correct. I think it has something to do with the whey proteins denaturing and binding to the K pros uh casein uh proteins. Uh well, that I'm not sure about that.
+
+[54:05] But anyway, could you explain exactly what is going on and any possible solutions? One trick I found which sometimes works is tempering the dairy with a bit of the hot liquid and then incorporating it back into the main pot. Thanks, Mike. Okay. Um what's happening is is that the the you know, you in something like a sour cream, the stuff is partially uh coagulated and broken together, but it's still okay.
+
+[54:25] You stir it in, it's acidified, so it's right at the place where it's going to break and curdle and look awesome. It's very, very touchy. And this is why all the recipes recommend to you that you uh you know don't heat uh sauce after you add the sour cream to it. You're very gentle when you heat it. And the reason they're asking you to temper the stuff in is because if you put the uh sour cream directly into the hot uh uh sauce, especially if it contains acidic things like tomatoes that are adding to the acidity of it, right?
+
+[54:51] Uh it will tend to break right away. Whereas if you are if you're stirring the the the dairy product and adding hot liquid into it, it's much more gradual change, and so you're not gonna cause uh kind of the instant break where where it's gonna happen. The um the the recommendation so that's why that recommendation is there, right? Uh the the breaking is enhanced by heating, which is why the recommendation is also there to not heat up those things. The other one that works is to add a stabilizer.
+
+[55:20] So if you're adding a stabilizer, and a lot of uh, you know, people put either starches or flour in, uh, and the flour uh prevents the uh prevents the the the agglomeration of the uh of the casein and so it prevents that curdling and that you know that's doing that. On the other hand, that's gonna muddy the flavor somewhat of it by by masking it with the with the thing. My uh my uh the person who's now what's Piper's what's Piper's job with this? Uh product engineer, I think it is. Yeah.
+
+[55:50] He uses uh pectins actually, a particular kind of pectin. I'll try and get it for the next show to do acidified dairy products that don't curdle. And he made a really acidified dairy product for us uh yesterday it was kind of was kind of what do you think about that? Oh, you wasn't there. Oh, you didn't taste it.
+
+[56:04] Uh anyway, so so you you can do that. Uh uh again, my brain totally bad. I didn't didn't read precisely what you had said. I don't think it is the whey proteins binding to the casein uh proteins, although I will research it for uh for the next time, as well as answer a question about Pectanex that came in that I didn't get a chance to answer until next week. Cooking issues.org.
+
+[56:44] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit internationalculinary center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radion Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of what is it? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as always with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. We got uh Jack and Joe in the engineering booth.
+
+[0:55] Thank you. Thanks. It's good to be back. Uh I actually was uh late this morning, not for my normal reasons, but thanks to Hurricane Sandy. My building still no longer has heat or hot water, and so uh we pretty much boil a giant pot of water on the on the stove all day every day.
+
+[1:12] Uh so I forgot to turn off the stove, and I had to bike all the way back home and uh turn the stove off to prevent uh my house from burning down. But call all of your questions in to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Now, the first week we were gone because I was in Portland. Uh, doing a cocktail demo, and I had to uh set up actually during our show.
+
+[1:34] Uh and last week, as those of you in this area will know or in the US will know, we had a uh little bit of a hurricane here in New York City. Uh shut down uh all of lower Manhattan for about three, four days, and uh destroyed a lot of people's houses in Staten Island and uh uh, you know, out on the shore in Queens and the Rockaways, and so we've been spending the better part of the week kind of dealing with that. But anyway, back to business. We have a lot of questions uh already uh emailed in because we've been gone for two weeks so I'll just start getting to them uh by the way uh any news uh from you Nastash anything good nothing no stash and I did the today show uh two two days after three days out there three days after the hurricane right yeah and so uh like they thankfully they put me up in a hotel along with my family which uh saved us from better part of ha half of the problems because Nastash was like well he I didn't have we didn't have self service in the lower Manhattan. People don't people don't understand it's not really that it's not really the power loss it's a huge problem.
+
+[2:34] Uh it's it's lost we lost you know all all service. Now luckily obviously we're all safe so we have very little to complain about compared to most people but um the the the thing people don't get about New York City is that we have in New York City a large population of elderly people who are able to live alone because there are a lot of services in New York that you wouldn't ordinarily get if you were living very spread apart in a suburb let's say we have a lot of people who are kind of right on the verge of being able to live alone who are elderly have some sort of disability but then you shut down everything including power and uh water and some people are living you know on very high up floors and they have to now walk or get things it's just that it was a nightmare for those people. And that's you know those are the kind of people you don't necessarily think about if you don't live in a city, right? Right. Anyway terrible so I the guy I buy my cheese from was saying he went and visited uh some of my cheese uh you know his mother-in-law, the day after the hurricane, he was visiting his store that was shut down, and she's probably I don't know, 80, in her apartment alone, crying her eyes out in the dark by herself because she ha couldn't call anyone, because a lot of us don't have landlines anymore, and just had no idea what was going on, had no news, had no one.
+
+[3:48] She was afraid to go outside. Crazy. Anyway, enough of that. Joseph, and then we we never got his pronunciation uh name is uh the pronunciation of his name. Joseph Petto wrote in about uh Cambodian food.
+
+[4:00] I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of Cambodian foods and was wondering if there's a cookbookslash resources you can recommend uh to help with my adventure. Thanks. Um well, unfortunately, Joseph, I only have myself personally one cookbook that deals specifically with um Cambodian food, and it's actually as a kind of it it the book is mainly about Vietnamese cooking. I wasn't able to dig it out, so I I can't uh give give you the name of it right now. But it looks like one of those crappy 80s cookbooks that you used to get back in Borders in the bargain shelf.
+
+[4:31] In fact, I purchased it in the bargain shelf at Borders in the early 2000s, and it's one of those books that looks like that. It's on Vietnamese and Cambodian food, and surprisingly, it is a very good book. And uh they uh I found on Amazon that they reissued the Cambodian portion of it. Uh and I can't see what they what they call it, but it it's it's um anyway, you I think it's the food and cooking of Cambodia, over 60 authentic classic recipes from undiscovered cuisine. Uh, and and it's part of that you should just get the one that's Vietnamese and Cambodian.
+
+[5:03] And uh I asked, you know, the person who had Nastasha's job before Nastasha uh was Vietnamese, is Vietnamese, she's still alive, and uh her name is uh uh Mindy uh Nguyen, and she looked at the at the Vietnamese section and said, Yeah, the Vietnamese section looks good. And uh, and then someone else said on the on the reviews in Amazon said the Cambodian section looked good. Another one out of print that I would like to get if I could get a hold of it, but it's out of print, is called the Elephant Walk Cookbook. Uh there's one that looks very short, and I don't know how in-depth it is, but you can fund some humanitarian aid in Cambodia by buying uh a book called Cambodian Cooking and Humanitarian Project in collaboration with Act for Cambodia. Um anyway.
+
+[5:41] Hope that helps. Um again, it's something that I don't know as much about as I should. We don't really have that many uh Cambodian restaurants here, do we? No. Vietnamese.
+
+[5:50] Yeah. It's pretty huge. Uh isn't that one by the FCI Cambodian? Which one? N.
+
+[5:59] No, something within N. I don't remember. Nils used to go there a lot. No, that's Malaysian. Yonya?
+
+[6:03] No, no, no, yeah. Malaysian. That's like the Malaysian joint that uh a lot of chefs used to go to. My son, actually, Booker and Dax, who hate almost everything, love Yonya. They love it.
+
+[6:15] The bread, probably, right? Crispy Squid. Oh. Crispy Squid and uh their chicken soup noodle soup. Oh, I have a caller, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[6:24] Hi, David Natasia and Jack. This is Eric from Oakland. And a couple uh pressure cooker questions. Shoot. Um first uh I'm looking into buying one.
+
+[6:35] Uh, and I do mostly cooking around the house uh for two to maybe upwards uh eight to ten people. Right. Uh what size pressure cooker should I be looking at? Well, uh excluding the huge ones made by like uh the American Foundry, like the pressure canner style ones, just get the largest one you can get. I forget what the leader rating is, but I prefer.
+
+[6:57] I have the really tall Coon Recon, not the really fat wide one, but the tall Coon Recon. And uh I like the handle or the the long handle or the two small handles on the side. I you well it used to have a long handle, but it fell so many times on the floor that the handles have all broken off. And so now I have to put the lid on with a uh you know by holding it with pot holders and everything like that. But yeah, it used to have a long handle on it.
+
+[7:20] Alright, so that's probably the 12 quart variety then, huh? Probably. I mean the good thing about the tall one is that it it the the pot surface isn't that wide. I mean so you can you're not gonna use it as a fry pan obviously but the pot surface is not that wide so you don't get a lot of scorching on it. And also because of that you can have smaller volumes in it and still pressure cook uh fairly effectively as opposed to the ones that are really wide which sometimes when you're getting it up to heat you could get some scorching around the center part if your burners aren't big enough.
+
+[7:49] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um question I had was you were talking a lot about uh cooking down garlic and onions uh to sort of concentrate and maybe take the bite out of them. Uh do you put liquid in with them so that you can bring the thing up to pressure and what's the procedure for doing that?
+
+[8:09] Yes, you put liquid in. I used to use uh for garlic and onions I I depending on what you're gonna do I a lot of times I use milk. I don't know why it's just a habit and it works nicely and uh I don't know whether there's any functionality to it but it curds up uh but usually I end up pureeing it anyway and so it it ends up being good. So for some reason I've always used milk. But uh how far do you fill it up?
+
+[8:30] Do you cover the uh the onions and the garlic? No no no you just need enough to you bring it to a boil while you're stirring it so that you don't uh scorch the milk, close it, bring it up to fr pressure very quickly and then lower it so the milk doesn't scorch. Or you could use broth or s or or you could use water even, but or you could put the you could put the allium, whatever garlic onion in a bowl, uh like over a trivet inside of it and just have it not touch the water at all. All those will work. Okay.
+
+[8:59] So and then you but remember it's not gonna have uh necessarily the same flavor that you're used to because you're taking all all of the pungency pretty much away. But the good news is you can. Yeah, you can eat a ridiculous amount of garlic that way without it uh you know destroying your your pores. Now, for those of you out there who might be like uh health obsessed with garlic, I th th I think that if you believe that garlic has some sort of amazing health-giving principle, that you're probably obliterating that by doing this, but you know, I don't care about that sort of thing. Do you have time for uh one more question about fluid gels?
+
+[9:37] Sure, quickie. All right. Um trying to make a brandy fluid gel for uh Thanksgiving dessert. Um and real quick, it's uh my test batch was three and a milliliters of brandy, two point four grams of auger, point two grams of salt, point four grams of nutmeg, ninety grams of sugar, uh bring to a simmer, cook off the brandy, ice bath to let set, uh and then blend. Right.
+
+[10:04] Um and after uh about a day, two days in the fridge, uh the gel started really loosening up. And I was wondering if there would have anything I'd do about that. Uh I'm amazed that it's set because you didn't uh I mean I would it formed a really nice fluid gel at the beginning or no. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty pretty thick and had a good texture and I could uh squeeze it out of a bottle and get a nice little collop. Huh, you mu you must have really boiled off a lot of the alcohol then.
+
+[10:31] Yeah, I did uh I boiled it until uh and then I lit the pan on fire and boiled it till the fire went away. Ah, yeah, okay, good. Because um two things, agar won't set in that high of a proof of alcohol, and two, uh needs a higher boiling point than you can get just out of when you bring a brandy to the boil to hydrate properly. So yeah, so getting rid of the alcohol was a good thing. How much acid was in it, you said?
+
+[10:56] Uh there was no acid in it. And it's separated on it, it just separated? It wouldn't come back together when you started. It's not really separating, it's just loosening up. It's not as is like thick of a gel.
+
+[11:07] It's more of like a a sauce now. Huh. Well, uh I haven't had that happen. My guess is that the you know, the way you're forming a fluid gel is you're breaking the particles into very tiny, tiny bits that have some affinity for themselves, but are uh are floating around in a f in a fluid so that when you when you move through them they uh you're you're they they shear apart quite easily and then regain their affinity for themselves when they're standing still. So my guess is that they uh that you more water was squeezed out of the uh the gel particles, and so the individual gel particles are becoming denser and the water phase is increasing.
+
+[11:42] And you might therefore be able to bring it back by adding a little bit of something that's gonna absorb some of the water, like Xanthan. But I don't know uh that that that's the case. That is my guess as to what's going on. What percentage of gel was it? Well, assuming uh brandy is the same density as water, which it's not, uh I went I shot for point eight percent.
+
+[12:06] Yeah. So uh uh right around point eight, it's nice, but uh but like small increases in water around that point are gonna uh decrease the viscosity a good chunk. Uh and so you that's that might be what what's happening is you the balance um the the water might be centeracing more out of the gel and just decreasing the liquid balance. I mean increasing the liquid and the balance slightly. That's my guess.
+
+[12:31] Okay. Should I try upping uh the a little bit? Not the same gun doesn't work. Uh you mean if you're going to make it again, I would just make it day of. And that way you don't have to worry about it.
+
+[12:42] Um because if you up it, you could always up it and then keep a little bit of the liquid around and then dilute it to the proper consistency at the moment that you're gonna serve it, if that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, I was trying to make Thanksgiving Day a little bit easier and as much beforehand as possible. So yeah, you can set it a little thicker, like fairly fairly thick, as long as your blender can take it, and then just keep a little bit of the liquid around and then just kind of stir in a little liquid to get the uh get the balance where you want it. Alright.
+
+[13:13] All right. Okay, thanks, Dave. All right, good luck. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
+
+[13:17] I will. Cheers. Hi. Okay. Uh Brian Zerbius wrote in about circulators.
+
+[13:23] And uh says, first of all, I love the show and uh make my cooks listen to it during prep. I feel sorry for them, but thank you for making them uh listen to it. Uh two questions. First, what do you think about the current surge uh in popularity of street foods, mainly food trucks? Instead of the sappy weepy stuff.
+
+[13:39] Uh yeah, and you uh you can't force bartenders to do anything, is what I've learned. Uh uh, what do you think about the current surge in popularity of street foods, mainly food trucks? And second, do you think it's practical to use sous vide on a food truck? As a chef looking to open a truck in the next year here in Indianapolis, uh, I want to plan slash prep cook most of my proteins sous vide in an attempt to create an awesome dish and to I assume you mean decrease my production times without losing any quality from my guests, uh Alan Sternberg. Well, hell yes, it's good in a food truck.
+
+[14:06] I like food trucks actually. I mean, here in New York, I don't really get to eat eat at them uh very very often. I don't know. Do you ever eat in the food trucks? Not really.
+
+[14:14] When I was in Portland, I ate in some, they're not really food trucks, they're more like kind of food kiosks kinda. But I think they're great. And you know, I've had uh Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog's uh gastro pub stuff down in the Florida in the Miami. I think they're I think they're good. I think it's I think it's awesome because uh, you know, they allow they allow uh like the the thing that's good about them is it's not just like schlock artists, jerkwads who are who are opening them, you know, it's like people who want to do a very finely focused item at an inexpensive price.
+
+[14:41] A lot of people I know who are doing it are focusing on quality. And so anytime you're gonna bring quality and speed to a uh a lot of people at a reasonable price, hell yes, bonus, right, says? Yeah. Anyway, uh sous vide in a truck uh or low temperature in general truck is a fantastic idea uh as long you know as long as you uh can get the the the bottlenecks going and get a circulator that you can run it in a truck or a CVAP or something to do your re therm. Or like like do you can do if you plan your menu item properly, you can go from zero to finished in a normal procedure straight out of a refrigerator.
+
+[15:18] I'll give you an example. So I know I always talk about steak because I like cooking steak, but here's steak. So um uh I worked on a steak where I did uh I did it was a very thin rib steak, like fairly thin. I forget the exact thing. It's on the on the about three-quarters of an inch.
+
+[15:34] I had it exactly calculated. But anyway, so what you what you do is is you fully cook the thing through to 55 degrees uh 552 Celsius in a circulator, cook it long enough to get the tenurization effects you want from me. It was about two hours uh in in a bag in zippies, actually, so I didn't have to deal with uh you know board of health stuff, then uh chill it all the way down in in a fridge. Uh right, you know, don't throw it directly in ice water, let it sit out to reabsorb some of this moisture for a second, then throw it in the in a fridge, get it down in an ice bike, get it down. Store it in the fridge at refrigeration temperature, right?
+
+[15:59] Now here's the trick. It's coming out cold, but it's thin, right? So what you do is you drop the steak in a deep fryer. Just drop the steak directly in a freaking deep fryer, right out of right out of the right out of the fridge into the deep fryer, two minutes on the button. Uh it was all calculated based on thickness.
+
+[16:20] Anyway, two minutes on the button, pull it out. Now you've overcooked the outside, so unlike normal sous vide finishing, you need to rest this steak now. So it's two minutes in the fryer, two minutes rest on the plate, slice and out. Bang. And those steaks were perfect all the time.
+
+[16:34] Now they had a little more of a cooked region on the outside than you would have in a normal uh sous vide or low temperature steak, but they were just warm on the in the middle, then they were perfectly cooked throughout, and literally four minutes total and only two minutes of cook time from fridge to plate uh without having to have the steak sitting around in a circulator without even having to have a circulator at service time at all. So if you get your portions uh done that way, then you can you're all of a sudden you're like master blaster genius. So, like fried chicken, get your chicken pieces such that they just get warm in the center in let's say a two-minute fry time, so you have to calculate what that is. Pre-cook all of your white meat to 64, let's say, be on the safe side, although I like 63. Cook all of your leg meat to uh 66, although 65 is what I like to do, but 66 is good.
+
+[17:28] Uh, and then have the slices so that they'll they'll warm through. Then you can uh you know dry them out, batter them, chill them down, and now you can you can fry them from cold uh you know, and then bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, without having to ha hold warm. So in a truck, I would definitely do that rather than having to have a lot of warm holding. I would try to do mostly things that you can finish you know in whatever your finishing uh operation is. I mean, for me it would always be frying because I love frying.
+
+[17:56] Uh, but um like that. That gets rid of an extra step for the truck, which is going to make it a lot easier. Or if you want to do really high-end stuff, you could always hold things in a circulator, but it's uh it's it's great for that. Anyway, right? Yes.
+
+[18:08] Dave and Nastasha, this is in from uh from Andrew, and his last name is Janjigian, Janjigian, and I'll get to the pronunciation of it later because I butchered his name uh prior. Uh I've been looking for, and and I apologize by the way, that uh both of the things that you're about to mention, the auction's already ended because we've been gone for two weeks. But hey, whoo! What do you gonna do? Uh I've been looking for a cheapish circulator on the eBay and I found a couple of items.
+
+[18:31] But you know the eBay started by a guy who wanted to help his wife sell Pez uh Pez dispensers? Pez. Pez. Do you like Pez? Uh-huh.
+
+[18:39] I I think they are gross and I love them. Like I can't, like, I can't eat just one. I have to eat like the whole dang package of the Pez. But they're not actually good. They remind me of the aspirin, the bears, the kids' children's St.
+
+[18:50] Joe's Joseph's rather. Anyway, sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh, on the eBay and found a couple of items, both being sold by Global Machinery. I don't really know that. He said, not sure if you're familiar, but they're selling a lot of interesting equipment.
+
+[19:02] I love the name though. Global Machinery. I wish we had a name. That's an awesome name. Global machinery.
+
+[19:08] Local machinery? Yeah. Local? No. Global.
+
+[19:11] Global. Global. Anyway, okay. The first is a poly science heating recirculator Model 210. Uh, and you know, and the question is do I have any.
+
+[19:20] I think now that that's an old uh poly science uh like kind of heater circulator with an in tube and an out tube. And I've used one similar similar to that. And the second one that you linked to was a blue magic whirl water bath. Nastasha, I don't think likes the word whirl. I think it reminds her of something something gross like a leaf fungus, whirl, right?
+
+[19:39] Does now? Yeah anyway. Uh it seems like the first would work for low temperature cooking with the addition of tubing and a container. Not sure about the second one. Second one, by the way, for those of you that can't look at it on the web like we can here, actually, like I did before.
+
+[19:52] Uh one is uh a head that you stick into a bath and then have tubes that you send outside, or you can shunt them the in to the out uh so that you don't go to an external with tubing and just put it in a bath. Uh so it's it's an older version of a kind of a current model circulator, but that's meant to go into a bath and then uh you know heat an external source, but you don't need to use it that way. And the second is a contained water bath that has a drain that it's basically looks like a big kind of uh Bainbury soup warmer thing. It's itself contained just with a proport, you know, a PID controller in it. Um anyway, it seems like the first would work for low temperature cooking with the addition of tubing.
+
+[20:29] Not sure about the second. Are you familiar and do you think either is worth buying? P.S. I love the show and it helped keep me sane this summer while I hike the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada. Thanks, Brian Zerbies.
+
+[20:39] Can you believe uh uh can wait I this one's not from Andrew, by the way. This is from Brian Zerbies. I got my questions mixed up. But anyway, I'll get to Andrew in a second. But can you believe that this guy hiked from Mexico to Canada?
+
+[20:51] That's some crazy hiking. Yeah. That's nutty bags. I mean, I'll always want to do the Appalachian Trail. Someday I'll do the Appalachian Trail.
+
+[20:57] Once my kids are in uh the college, I told my wife, hey, we're gonna hike the Appalachian Trail. She's like, Yeah, shut up, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Because she doesn't have to think about it because you got like another 10 years to worry about it. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:07] Would you like to hike the Appalachian Trail sometime? No. No, you don't like hiking? No, I do. I just wouldn't want to do it in the US.
+
+[21:12] Too many heat too many funk fungi along the way. Why would you want to want to do it in the US? I'd want to go somewhere abroad. Why? Why can't you hike here and hike there?
+
+[21:20] You're not what? I'm not patriotic like you. You're not patriot. It's a freaking election day. I voted already, by the way.
+
+[21:28] I know. Did you vote? Yes, I did, but yeah. So it has nothing to do with patriot. No, I know.
+
+[21:32] I don't give a rat but you. You really like to you really like to explore America? I don't. That's that's all. This is what I deal with on a daily folks people.
+
+[21:41] First of all, I don't care. Like I happen to love America quite a bit. All right. But even if you even if you didn't love America the way I love America, like uh we have some beautiful freaking scenery here, and the Appalachian Trail is not about putting on your durndal and going to Oktoberfest. It's about natural freaking beauty.
+
+[22:05] Yeah, freaking. Then fly to where is the people seriously. Tennessee. It's it's it runs through New York. It runs from Maine to Georgia.
+
+[22:14] So you would do the whole thing. Yeah, I want to do the whole damn thing. Wow. Anyway. Takes a couple of months.
+
+[22:20] And everyone always they start down south and then they quit, like they which I probably do too. People are like, crap on this, and then they they quit. Where? Uh well, it depends on how far how far you go. I mean, it's a long, long, and it's tough.
+
+[22:31] It's like through the mountains, and you can't carry a lot because otherwise you're carrying a lot and you can't. And so people like all the a lot of times they'll they'll bring too much on the Appalachian Trail and they'll have to throw it away or shed it halfway through. You can mail stuff to yourself halfway along so that you could pick it up at these weird little zones along there to get food and I don't know. Apparently you smell really bad. But hey, that's no news to us here in New York.
+
+[22:54] We're not gonna let some showered for like a week. Oh! Anyway, uh, well, those of us don't have hot water. Anyway, uh, you know, we're sponging ourselves off. So uh anyway, so back to the circulators.
+
+[23:04] Here's the problem with the old, I don't know how we get to the Appalachian Trail from circulators. Oh, yeah, yeah, he hiked. He hiked, he hiked. Okay, listen. Uh the problem with old circulators is this.
+
+[23:13] Uh often they are on their last legs. They've been used in a lab for a long, long time, uh, and they've been packed away. And the newer circulators are a lot better, not in terms of their temperature control, but in terms of the bearings that are in the motors. So the motor lifetime in an old circulator is not nearly what the motor life is like in a new circulator or a new circulating water bath. Now, add to that the fact that the older one has also been used for a long time, and also sometimes questionable items, right?
+
+[23:43] The second problem is the electronics in the older circulators can also go bad after a long time. It's because they've been exposed to uh moist environment for for uh a long, long time. So most of the time in an old circulator, what's gonna go bad is either the bearings or the uh electronics. Um and they're all fixable, most of them, uh, but it's a crab shoot. Now, if you get one that happens to work or is in good shape, then God bless, they work.
+
+[24:10] You know what I mean? But uh, especially nowadays, like look the ones you sell were selling for about a hundred bucks, and you you have like maybe uh 20 to 30% chance that it's gonna be no good, so you toss that money down the drain. Within a couple of months, the average circulator is gonna be between 350 and 500 for something that's guaranteed to work. You know what I mean? So I would probably go that route in st instead, unless you like to take crapshoots.
+
+[24:35] And I'm with you, I do, I do like to take crapshoots. Anywho, now on to Andrew uh John Johnjiggins, John Janjigian, Janjigian. Okay, I'm gonna get to it made. On fry oil, two Nastasha and Dave. Thanks for covering my fat saturation and frying question a few weeks back.
+
+[24:52] I was a bit behind on listening to the podcast and just heard this segment the other day. I had a follow-up question. If continuous batch frying operations use a blend of fresh and partially oxidized fats, can a home cook do the same thing, save the previous batch of oil and blend it with fresh the next time around. Also, I forgive you for butchering my name on the air. You are right, I should have provided pronunciation assistance.
+
+[25:11] It is a hard G as in pig. Otherwise, you had it right. Uh by the way, I like that someone's like, G is in pig, not G is not G is in something else. Like he's like pig. Well, you're right about saturated.
+
+[25:21] Right? That's good. Saturated fat's pig. Anyway, finally, I seem to recall uh Dave saying he was a sample of uh the uh William S. Burroughs, a fan of William S.
+
+[25:30] Burroughs, which reminds me of one of my favorite old food-related WSB quotes. I hate sprouts. They put them on everything they serve. Eating sprouts is like going down on a robot. Damn.
+
+[25:40] Damn, I'm hearing some damn from the engineering room over there. Damn. Cheers, Andrew. John Jiggian. Well, I mean, it's a robot.
+
+[25:48] You could do anything you want to a robot, right? You can't have an X-rated robot, can you? I mean, it's a robot. Uh I I don't think I have ever mentioned that. I mean, like I I, like almost everyone, have read uh some burrows, ex like naked lunch freaked me the heck out because I read it as a teenager.
+
+[26:04] Probably, oh my god. You read that stuff, Stuff? Oh no. You've never read Burroughs? I don't think so.
+
+[26:09] Jack and Joe, you're Burroughs readers, right? What the hell's wrong with you people? You know, great American look. Look, first of all, anyone who's a connoisseur of the crazy has to like a little bit of the burrows. Burroughs, when he was like, you know, 75 or 80 was something, his last boyfriend was like, I don't know, it's crazy.
+
+[26:29] He's crazy. Go research some burrows. He's a nut job. Anyway, whether you like him or whether you hate him, that is one of the great sprout quotes, and I believe entirely accurate. Now, back to your frying question.
+
+[26:41] Usually when you're frying at home, if you're actually deep frying, the first couple of things you fry, uh, especially if you've overheated it, which is normally what happens in home frying, you've ruined the oil enough to have it be a good frying situation. Um that said, uh, you can uh save a portion of your oil and blend it back. But fry the fry oil uh really kind of tempers itself out pretty quickly. Uh but yeah, I don't see why you can't, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to, you don't want to add so much back that it degrades before you're finished frying. So the here's the answer.
+
+[27:14] If usually at the end of frying the stuff's tasting bad and the stuff's smelling bad, and you smell that kind of fishy, broken down fat uh aroma in your kitchen, which by the way, that smell makes me want to puke. You like that smell stuff? It makes you want to puke, right? Yeah, if you're smelling that at the end of your frying, then you can't afford to have it go off any faster. If at the end of uh your frying sessions, the oil smells entirely neutral and awesome, and when you throw a bread uh crouton into it and eat it, it still tastes uh clean.
+
+[27:46] Then, yeah, you could save some of that and add it back. It's not gonna be a problem. So it depends on how abusive you are to your oil. That makes sense, though? Uh-huh.
+
+[27:53] Anyway, going down on a robot. Michael Nakin writes in. Hey, Dave, Nastasha et al. I was pondering uh our friend Michael Nakin, right? Uh, who I don't think I I don't think I've ever met him personally.
+
+[28:05] Have you ever met him personally? Didn't no. I thought he came to the bar. Did he? I don't know.
+
+[28:10] No, I don't think not when I was there. Uh I was pondering why refrigeration always breaks down while stoves and ovens are much more reliable. I'll tell you why. I think it's a freaking racket. You notice how your home fridge never breaks down?
+
+[28:23] Hey, Jack and Joe, is your home fridge ever broken? Yeah, right? Stas, is your home fridge ever broken? My parents, yeah. Your parents, but how old was that fridge?
+
+[28:34] Who knows? Yeah, right. I mean, like, you know, it's the first fridge ever made. You know? What about you?
+
+[28:38] Have you ever had a fridge? No. My home fridges have never broken. For a four-year period, I had a commercial fridge in my house and it broke four times. Commercial refrigeration sucks.
+
+[28:49] Here's a little known fact. Commercial refrigeration sucks. And uh, you know, by and large, I mean, I you know, I like the good folks at uh, you know, Randell. But and I think it's a racket. Here's what commercial refrigeration people will tell you.
+
+[29:02] They'll say, they'll say, look, a home fridge, you don't have to open and close it all the time. You open and close the commercial fridges, and they they they go through a lot more abuse, and that's why they break. No, it's because they build them like crap. It's they vibrate. You ever notice how loud commercial refrigeration is compared to a normal refrigerator?
+
+[29:18] It's because they just don't put the stuff together as well. They don't insulate it as well, and they don't solder it as well. There's no reason why a compressor should rattle itself apart, develop a leak, throw out its uh refrigerant and have to be recharged every couple of years, like you do in commercial refrigeration. No reason. Anyway, enough of a rant on commercial refrigeration.
+
+[29:36] Well, uh well, a lot of people have had their home stoves break, and your gas, regular old gas stove is a freaking demon. The only thing that breaks in commercial gas stoves is the little bezoval valve in the oven. Or if you have an electric one, they break all the time. Whatever. Anyway.
+
+[29:51] Uh, yeah, so stoves uh reliable, especially gas ones. And that's one of the reasons, by the way, that Americans are so resi aside from the fact that our natural gas is so freaking cheap, and that um and that the feedback loop for a for a cook looking at a gas flame is one of the great uh kind of visual feedback loops of all time, right up there with the with the two switches and a paddle and a vita prep. Uh one of the reasons that we favor gas over uh electricity and especially induction is even though it's horribly inefficient, is because uh they never break gas uh gas ranges, never break. Anyway, rarely break. Um okay.
+
+[30:29] Uh anyway, Michael's pondering why refrigeration breaks down, and he says, obviously it's primarily because of compressors, which are a lot more complicated than just piping gas somewhere and burning the crap out of it, like a stove does. Which goes back to the idea of entropy. I'm no physicist, but I believe when you're adding heat to a system, you're increasing the entropy and therefore doing what the universe wants to do while taking uh heat out of something reduces entropy, so you're fighting an uphill battle. Well, actually, I mean heat and entropy uh uh are are are separate, right? So entropy is a measure of kind of uh the disorderness or the number of states that something can take on.
+
+[31:01] Well, you know, heat is uh, you know, a form of energy that you are a adding or removing. So changes in entropy and heat often go hand in hand. I mean, obviously you can have isentropic, i.e. same same entropy things, same heat things, and you can have something where heat doesn't go in and out, but entropy. Anyway, so in other words, they are separate.
+
+[31:18] They're the two main things that you're dealing with when you're dealing with kind of thermodynamic changes, but they're not they're not the same. Anyway, uh anyhow, uh back to Michael. Anyhow, all this amusing got me thinking about whether you could chill food by using an endothermic reaction, i.e., one that uh one that gets gets colder, one that uh absorbs energy. The opposite of burning fuel to produce an exothermic reaction, rather than by compressing and expanding a gas. I found one patent on the topic, and it was about using uh salts, uh potassium uh I think it was potassium chloride or something like that.
+
+[31:44] Uh I found one patent uh uh interestingly assigned to the Coca-Cola company, and apparently motorhome refrigerators work on an endothermic reaction involving uh ammonia as well. Uh who knew? So my questions are do you know of any other commercial systems that use endothermic reactions for refrigeration? And do you think there are any potential for having them uh potential for them to make more reliable restaurant refrigeration or any other ideas for solving that problem? Thanks, Michael Natkin.
+
+[32:11] Okay, so listen, here's the deal. So an endothermic, there's there's the the two things that you point to are two different kinds of reactions. So in an in a normal uh like endothermic reactions take place because um so normally most reactions that take place spontaneously are exothermic, they give off heat. In order for something endothermic to take place naturally without having to add anything to it, the entropy increase needs to be so great that it basically wants to wants to happen anyway. So certain salts when they dissolve, certain things when they dissolve, um, they absorb heat and make things colder, right, because it's so favored for them to dissolve in that situation that it actually it actually overrides the fact that they need to absorb uh heat energy from the outside.
+
+[32:54] So that's how those salts work. And that that patent that you uh did was Coca-Cola was trying to figure out a way to make a soda machine in space because compressor situations, normal compressor uh based refrigeration don't work uh properly in a zero gravity situation. So they were trying to figure out a way that they could add uh salts that um have an endothermic reaction when they dissolve and create a refrigeration system that way. It's not so efficient to use as a continuous refrigeration system on Earth because it's harder to regenerate the salt, and after you dissolve it, then you gotta remove the liquid again from it using heat to boil it down and then redo it. And so it's not so efficient a way to do it here on Earth, but you can use it for individual cold packs.
+
+[33:33] And they sell cold packs that work that way where you have an endothermic chemical reaction, and then once that chemical reaction is over, then sometimes you can regenerate it and sometimes you can't. But it's not necessarily so good for long-term situations. The R V thing is an extremely interesting type of refrigeration. All the refrigeration that we use, you compress a uh a liquid, condense it down, and then spray it out, and as it expands, right, that change in pressure uh it it creates the cold, right? So that that's where where it comes from.
+
+[34:04] Uh that you know, you acquires heat, absorbs from the outside, boom, right? Uh so it's expansion, it's two pressures. RV refrigerators work uh in a single pressure system. And what's awesome about that is it doesn't require any moving parts. So the way they work is you heat up uh a mixture of ammonia and water, because ammonia wants to dissolve in water, right?
+
+[34:23] Very badly. So uh you heat that up and you boil the ammonia in the whole system's under one, but large, but under one pressure. The ammonia boils off. As it boils off, the water is stripped away from it. It goes up physically up, like you know, gravity-wise, up, because it's now a gas, goes into a condenser where the uh ammonia under pressure under the same pressure, the whole system's under one pressure, that's the key, uh, turns back to a liquid in the condenser and then drifts back into a zone also the same pressure that has uh primarily hydrogen gas.
+
+[34:53] And uh what and strangely, very counterintuitively actually, what happens when the ammonia goes from being a liquid in a pure ammonia environment to being added to a gas is gaseous hydrogen environment is it evaporates. And the reason it evaporates is it wants is it there's a very low, what's called partial pressure of ammonia in that hydrogen region, and so the ammonia needs to evaporate to kind of ameliorate that lack of partial pressure that it has, and that uh requires a lot of energy, which it absorbs from uh the inside of the RV fridge. Then that uh now heavier thing trickles down where it meets the water again and is absorbed into the water and goes and boils and the whole thing keeps going like a big cycle uh and all you're doing is adding heat in the with the heater and removing it using room temperature uh air in the condenser section. So it's a very interesting system. You can run, in fact, if you have a camp uh that only has propane, you run your fridge and your uh blah blah.
+
+[35:52] What's the what's the word blah blah I'm looking for? Your stove and your refrigerator off of the one propane thing. So you can use it. I don't know why they don't use them in uh in large systems in restaurants. Maybe maybe they're I mean they should see they should be reliable.
+
+[36:05] I don't know why. It's an interesting question, Michael. Something we should look at, right? Something maybe to look at anyway. Okay, uh Mike uh Matthew writes in about sausages.
+
+[36:14] Hey Dave, Nastasha, Nastasia, and crew. I had a couple of questions on circulating sausage. This coming Sunday, which is over, unfortunately. Sorry, Matthew. Uh I'm throwing a party where I'll be serving about a hundred sausages.
+
+[36:25] I want to circulate the sausages ahead of time to eliminate as much day of prep uh day of day of prep cooking as possible, and then reheat them and sear them on a grill. Do you feel that the quality of the sausages will deteriorate if they are cooked 24 to 48 hours ahead of time? My plan is to circulate them for about an hour in a 65 degree bath. I chose 65 since they are chicken sausages, and I think that's a safe temp for them. That's true.
+
+[36:45] Any other suggestions on circulating sausages? Any good ideas on a liquid to use in the bag with a chicken and chorizo sausage. I'm pretty curious about uh how best to hold the circulated sausages and how long they can be held without deteriorating quality. Thanks for any help on this. Uh also uh now then listen, right back because your event might have been uh canceled because it was in Williamsburg, and so it might be in the future now.
+
+[37:07] It was supposed to be on 1028, right? That was right when the hurricane was hitting, right? Okay, so uh the company Landhouse is throwing a grand opening bash at the Woods Bar in Williamsburg where they've started serving food on a permanent basis. Uh the menu uh on the day is going to increase include Heritage Pork from Heritage Foods. And the party was supposed to be 2 to 6 uh PM uh on 1028 at the woods on South 4th Street between White and Kent, Williamsburg.
+
+[37:30] Maybe it's gonna maybe it was postponed, in which case, you know, please put a plug in. I'm sure Heritage Radio will tweet it out. Will you not, Jack? You will, you'll tweet it out. He will.
+
+[37:36] He's not on the thing, but he'll tweet it out. Uh okay. The thing you have to worry about with sausages being cooked ahead of time is to get all the oxygen out of the bag. You can use a liquid, uh, but uh, you know, uh that a regular like a water based liquid, but I would stick with a fat chorizo fat would be a really good choice, actually, because you don't really need that much, especially if you're putting it in zippies to cook off. The problem with sausages held for a long time is that uh with any sausage is the development of rancidity, aka what's known as warmed over flavors.
+
+[38:04] And what happens is is that it's uh auto oxidation and and the the further things that are that are taken out, uh that the further uh chemical breakdown of fats uh when they're exposed to uh oxygen. And the weird thing about warmed over flavor is it happens in animal meats because it's the actual cell membrane fats, the phospholipid things that break down uh because you when you cook something and then hold it afterwards, you release iron from hemoglobin uh and other iron containing things. That iron now becomes available to help catalyze auto oxidation, just like in a deep fryer of the fatty ashy tissues. So, but it requires oxygen. So I'd get rid of oxygen.
+
+[38:39] Uh I would add uh an antioxidant. Rosemary is a great antioxidant, but Nastasha can't add it because she's exposed to too much rosemary during the time she was working with Chesaree Casella, our good friend, uh, but lover of rosemary. Vitamin E. Uh you could add any other sort of fat-based antioxidant. Um, and there's a couple uh things you can look at on the also if you pre-sear the sausages a little bit to give a mired reaction or throw mired stuff, that might have an antioxidant effect that will uh decrease warmed over flavor.
+
+[39:08] Um and other also not storing for too long is gonna reduce the amount of what's called warmed over flavor. But just do a search on warmed over flavor or WOF. Specifically, the mechanism responsible for warmed over flavor and cooked meat in 1983. Uh also you could wick it, Wikipedia if you want it. Also, the 2005 uh article, comparison of natural rosemary extract and BHA BHT for relative antioxidant uh effectiveness in pork sausage and the antioxidant mired reaction uh products for uh application in sausage by Lingert and Lungren in 2007.
+
+[39:40] Take a look at that. Uh and then we're ripping through this stuff. Uh dear uh Daniel Price writes, Dear Nastasha, Jack, uh Dave, and Joe, hi again from the West Coast. I wanted to thank you all again for the show, and I have a couple of cocktail questions. First, this weekend I made a big batch of uh clarified Bartlett pear juice using the agar agar method.
+
+[39:58] For fun, I tried uh treating my puree with pectanex ultra SPL and steeping at 45 degrees Celsius for 20 minutes to increase the yield. It was hard to tell if it worked. Is there some visual clue when using Pectanex? Regardless, the agar method worked and the juice was great, and I was able to combine it with champagne and pear brandy for a crystal for crystal clear pear bellinis, but I have a lot of juice left. Can I freeze clarified juices without significant problems?
+
+[40:20] Yes, you can freeze them without significant problems if that juice was stable to begin with. So uh normal, you know, like lime juice is not stable, so you can't freeze it and hope to preserve it, but pear juice is relatively stable, and so you can freeze it and preserve it. Uh you might want to let it sit longer. You should be able to tell. It should self-clarify a little bit, unless it's a thick puree, in which case you won't see it, but you're definitely going to increase your yield by adding pectanex beforehand, uh, sometimes dramatically.
+
+[40:45] Second, I was wondering what do you think about the efficacy of digestifs? Do they really aid the digestion, or is that just marketing? If yes, do you think the flavorings matter, or is it just the alcohol content? I've always thought it was kind of BS, but you know, I I'm gonna look into that more. I I didn't have a chance this morning to look in because they there's a bunch of articles about serving herbs to chickens and rabbits, is seeing whether it increases their growth weight uh when you're feeding them in farms, and so like that might be an indication whether they actually work in humans.
+
+[41:10] So more on that, more on that later. Um I'm gonna get to I'm gonna get through these. I'm gonna get through these. Dave. Well, how long how Jack, how much longer do I have?
+
+[41:22] Jack or Joe. A couple of okay, Joshua, you have a beer question. I'm gonna get back to you on that beer next week. Uh, but okay, now Nastasha, with the email that came through, I'm gonna pronounce your name incorrectly. Uh I remember you from the class because he's like he's he's anyway, interesting stories.
+
+[41:43] Anyway, co miles, but co miles, but like he said he had. He's the one who wanted to go out with you after that. But he gave the pronunciation. Yeah. But I can't see the pronunciation on my.
+
+[41:55] Anyway, yeah. First, please tell Dave I had a boatload of fun in a sous vide low temp course at the uh International Culinary Center. It was great. Thanks so much. Second, I would like to get Dave's recommendations for one, the best high-end home extrusion pasta maker, and two, the best high-end home ice cream maker.
+
+[42:07] Hope you're doing well. I continue to look forward to your weekly show. By the way, congratulations on passing the 100 show mark. Thanks in advance. Uh okay.
+
+[42:13] Here are the two machines I would look at for uh for pasta. The Arco Bellino, the one that uh ideas and food uh gets they pump that all the time because they were given one for free, by the way. I still let everyone know they were given one for free. Oh, it's a fantastic machine. I used that one at Starchefs a couple of years ago, and it is awesome.
+
+[42:31] I think it's around three grand, two and a half, three grand, something like that. It's amazing. Um the guys at JB Prince don't carry that one, they carry a different one that they call Dolly, which I haven't used, but I've seen it. And uh Tim Musig, my friend at JB Prince, assures me that that one also works in a similar way to the Arcabolino. On home ice cream, most people use that $350 uh kind of uh um musso machine, like the Lelo ice musso machine.
+
+[42:55] But I can't really recommend it because the batch times are too long on it, and that's in the $300 range. Now, if you jump up, you have to jump, now you're jumping, way up, to like the several thousand dollar range. Paco jets are awesome. It's not a traditional ice cream machine, but they are awesome. Now, the one that I always wanted to get was not has not been available in the US for a long time, but they still make and you can get in European websites is uh the Pronto 4, which is made by Carpeggiani.
+
+[43:20] Carpegani machines are amazing. The Pronto 4 is a small vertical uh batch machine that I believe does one quart. Uh, and they're by all accounts, I've never used one. Awesome. And then when I was researching that to make sure that they still make it, they make a new thing, Carpeg Johnny makes that I've never used before, but please check this one out and look on the web.
+
+[43:39] It's got a batch time of they say five minutes, and it uses a small canister like a Paco Jet, but the canister has a freezing uh mechanism in it. Now it's only got 300 watts of I think three or four hundred watts of freezing, but it does small batches at a time, and they claim five minute batch times and only two or three minutes in between batches. It's called the freeze and go, and it's meant to be an extremely small unit. It's the size of kind of a relatively large drip coffee maker. And so if I have more time to research it, had time to use one, I definitely would uh take a look at the Carpagani freeze and go.
+
+[44:12] Alright, here's the last one gonna be able to get to today because uh I'm gonna get ripped off the air. I have a couple questions I'm gonna miss. I'll get you next week, I promise, even though some of them are already too late. Greg writes in about sauces. Hiya, Nastasha, not Dave, and not Jack, but maybe Indie Jesus.
+
+[44:28] Wow. I like that. Wow. Well, yeah, yeah. That means you have to answer it.
+
+[44:32] I'll read it, you answer it. First, I hope you uh you folks and all your friends and family in New York City and New Jersey are recovering from Sandy. I guess I need to get out more because uh you were all on my mind a lot during the storm. Well, thank you. Sadly, because of travel, I'm often weeks behind on the show, but I listen to each and every episode like it's church for a dying sinner.
+
+[44:48] Maybe Indie Jesus will save me with his hipster blessings. Uh a fellow from New Zealand named Rory wrote in with a question about brown uh the brown band at the top of a blended pepper sauce. Rory thought this might be due to oxidation, and I think this saved uh Dave on a red herring. Based on the recipe of the sauce, vinegar, pepper, garlic, ginger, and salt, and this is important with no other additives. I think we're seeing simple stratification here.
+
+[45:10] I think Rory's seeing capsation rising to the top of the bottle. To prevent this, I'd add a little Xanthan gum or lessithin to the mix to keep things emulsified. This leaves to a question. Uh for a three to six months room temperature shelf life, which is better in the long term, xanthan or lessithin. Let's assume we've already dealt with oxidation and ascorbic acid.
+
+[45:28] My bet is on less it then because it works on a molecular level, whereas Xanthan works more on a mechanical level. What do you think? You guys rock, take care, Greg. Alright. Um well, I mean, they're different.
+
+[45:40] One is a stabilizer, so I would definitely have Xanthan's gonna stop things because it's gonna form a weak gel over time. That's how salad dressings are stabilized, and the other one's an emulsifier, which actually makes it easier for things to stay together. I don't know that I would choose less it then as an emulsifier. I'd probably choose a different emulsifier. But I typically, like when we're doing long-term health sauces, we'll use a combination of an emulsifier and a stabilizer.
+
+[46:00] So Xanthan plus an emulsifier. So if you like Zet uh lesson, use that. I would use both. In other words, it's not uh one or the other. And I think they're gonna rip me off the air, but listen, Ben!
+
+[46:10] Ben Dweck, if you're gonna buy your rice cooker now, he wanted to know whether he has an old Zoji Rushi uh and he wants to know whether he should get that or whether there's a better one. Zoji Rushi for my money make the best rice cookers on the market. I own one, have used one, NeuroFuzzy, the big one for years, induction, and it rocks. I don't know whether the pressure cooking thing is a gimmick. I don't know about the alpha versus ba uh beta starch.
+
+[46:31] I'll try to do more research on it, but pressure cooking is gonna make brown rice softer and cook it faster, and everyone knows waiting for brown rice is a pain in the butt. Cooking is huge. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[47:14] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Many people in our food community have been seriously impacted by Superstorm Sandy, and our hearts go out to them. At HRN, we've been covering these stories since the storm hit. To learn more, visit our website at www.heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:55] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live in the back of Robert's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering room, and today we have a special guest, Piper from Booker and Dax Research Lab downtown. Hey Pipes, how you doing? Good? Yeah, it's called a microphone.
+
+[1:17] You gotta talk into it. Uh so I have another person I can brutalize on air, right? It's good business, no? It's good. Anyway, calling all your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[1:26] That's 718497-2128. Uh all right, so let's get to some of the email questions that we uh we have already. Uh we oh no, again with the not getting the right uh thing on my iPad. Okay. Uh this is from Paul K.
+
+[1:40] Hi all. Thanks for your work on the great show, and thanks for answering all my past questions. My latest question is about baking. In general, I'm happy with the results of my once per month attempt at baking bread. However, I'm always a little disappointed by the small or perhaps non-existent oven spring that I get.
+
+[1:54] I haven't had any real life training. My only knowledge is from books, but my impression from those books is that oven spring is to be expected and should be noticeable. Although my bread does rise nicely before putting it in the oven, i.e. I guess when he's proofing, uh, as I say, I'm always a little disappointed with the amount it springs during those first few minutes of baking. Perhaps I simply shouldn't expect to see anything dramatic.
+
+[2:16] Any help would be most appreciated, all the best. Paul. Okay. Uh all right. Here's a the the problem it first of all, I am by no means a uh uh a bread expert.
+
+[2:28] There are people who all they do all day, all night is uh think about uh bread. And so you know you always hesitate when there's people like that out there to make any kind of statement at all. But that said, I feel confident that I don't know enough information right now to answer um your question. So, what we need for a real troubleshooting of uh of your bread recipe. First of all, what style of bread are you making?
+
+[2:49] Like what what are you looking to get? Like, do you want a dense crumb structure, a very open cut crumb structure, what kind of crust? Crumb structure is a gross word, huh? Yeah. Nastasha just made her crumb structure face, which is very similar to vegan face, like slight difference, only I can tell.
+
+[3:04] Uh but the it's so there's that, right? And then uh in general, uh I need to know kind of what hydration level you're using, so like what what kind of uh you know what's what style of flour, first of all, what you're how much water you're adding to the flour, and then how you're raising it and forming it uh and proofing it and whatnot. In general, um, oven spring is uh generated first of all, most of the stuff that I that I read on the on the on the inner line, what do you call it? Internet. On the internet about uh about oven spring.
+
+[3:36] A lot of it is kind of BS. Uh specifically, I don't think that uh some people say this because you're increasing the the rate of yeast reaction at the last minute as the bread is baking, uh, and that's what's doing it. I think that's almost almost probably certainly not the case because the oven spring happens very, very quickly, and probably not enough time for yeast to start reacting and all of a sudden producing uh CO2 in overdrive. I think what what's going on uh is you need a high initial heat, uh high initial burst of heat in the oven to rapidly expand the gases in the cell of the dough structure and then set the dough structure before the dough structure breaks. Uh and so what what you're looking at to get a good oven spring is one, there has to be a good gluten network in there that's going to allow it to hold the gas as it expands.
+
+[4:21] Uh it's gonna have to be uh kind of formed properly, and it's gonna have to have enough air bubbles in it already that can expand. Right? So it's formation of the of the you know right number of and you know amount size of air bubbles, getting them kind of big enough, but keeping the structure of the dough intact so that it can raise up and uh and spring, getting up very high heat both from the bottom and from the uh top, so with a baking stone at the bottom with a very initial uh high preheat, and then with steam injection or some form of steam to get a rapid uh rapid heat transfer into the loaf on the on the and uh forget I'm not even talking about the actual development of what the crust is like, which is not a thing that steam can do, but I'm just saying rapid heat into the into the dough. A third thing is uh proper slashing pattern in the dough uh will allow uh heat to get in and allow it to expand more, uh like physically allow it to r uh expand more. So there's the slashing patterns that you make on it.
+
+[5:17] There's uh proper formation of the dough, proper proofing of it, like like uh, and making sure that the dough has the proper structure to get it to to work properly. But very difficult to uh figure out exactly which one of those problems you have. Most likely your oven's not tricked out enough for it. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what kind of what kind of oven that you're using.
+
+[5:36] There's an interesting book that uh I haven't read before, but that uh gets very high recommendations, and I want to read it called Bread Science, the Chemistry and Craft of Breadmaking, which uh came out fairly recently. And there's uh a bunch of chunks on the uh you know on the internet that you can read of that on their on their website. Uh and then I would look at um, you know, a fresh loaf and those other kind of like large kind of uh conglomeration of uh bloggers who get together and talk about this stuff. I mean, it i if you're if you're just baking occasionally, sometimes it can be difficult to wade through all the information uh that they they provide, and of course, a lot of it's red herrings because everyone, you know, like all of us are just experimenting all the time. But anyway, I hope that helps.
+
+[6:14] That doesn't seem like it made any sense at all. Yes. No? Yeah. Uh all right.
+
+[6:19] Hello and good morning team cooking issues. I like that team cooking issues, not cooking issues team, team cooking issues. You appreciate that? Okay. Can you describe the pros and cons of open and closed baths for low temperature cooking?
+
+[6:29] A friend is tempted to purchase a sous-vide supreme rather than poly science immersion circulator for home use because the salesperson suggested that an open bath will cause the temperature to fluctuate and cause a loss of control. The guy was a schmuck. Thank you, Matthew in Chicago. Well, I don't know the man that you're discussing uh personally. I didn't see him, but based on the one statement we have of his, which is that an open uh bath circulator is gonna have uh large temperature fluctuations, yes, he is a schmuck.
+
+[6:59] So if the rest of his thinking is in line with the thinking he he uh gave you right there, then yes, uh a schmuck call is in order. The dip the main difference between the sous-vive supreme and the uh and and a real immersion circulator isn't necessarily whether it's covered or not, because it's very easy to cover a uh you know a bath when you when you use an immersion circulator. Uh the main difference is in the circulation itself. Now, to go back for a second, in case, I don't know, in case like someone scrapped you down to a chair and uh this your torture is to listen to this radio show and you haven't listened to it before, what we're talking about are pieces of equipment that allow you to do low temperature cooking. Cooking at very precise temperatures that are very close to the actual temperature you want to cook to.
+
+[7:39] All right, so that's low temperature cooking. And the main piece of equipment that most of us use to do that is the immersion circulator. And what that does is it keeps water at a very, very, or anything really, uh any liquid, at a very accurate temperature and allows you to do all these new effects that you have for low temperature cooking. Now, there's uh you notice the word immersion circulator. So there's circulation of water, and the circulation is what allows you to get uh very um even temperatures over the entire bath, you know, with to within like a couple tenths of a degree.
+
+[8:06] Now, if you don't cover that circulating bath, uh what's gonna happen is you will get evaporation off of the surface of the uh of the of the bath, right? And so you'll be losing a lot of heat. And if you didn't have adequate circulation, you will get a temperature stratification in the bath, right? I mean, no, no duh, obviously, you'll get temperature stratification. But um adequate circulation is gonna prevent any real stratification of temperature uh once you get any reasonable depth below the bottom of the above below the surface of the water.
+
+[8:38] Now, if you have an unstirred bath, right, uh the sir the situation is horrible. What happens if you do not cover an unstirred bath, you will get constant evaporation uh off of the surface, and you will get uh, in essence, over time a temperature gradient established as uh wal as water evaporates off of the top of the bath, and by evaporating cools it because it's evaporative cooling, and so you'll get a uh you'll get a temperature gradient set up that probably is fairly static over a long cook once it settles out, I would guess. Um assuming that humidity of your room remains constant. Now, uh aside from the fact uh what I just said that you must at all times cover a uh non-circulating bath uh and that you don't need to necessarily cover a circulating bath to uh to get an accurate temperature, it is always good practice to cover a circulating bath. Always good practice because uh you lose so much energy through the top of the um to the top of the bath uh you know as things evaporate that A, uh sometimes in larger bath situations your circulator might not have enough power to get it up to the temperature that you want because they only typically have between 750 and a thousand watts of heating power.
+
+[9:50] Uh two, you are going to take a lot longer to come up to temperature than you otherwise would. And three, you're going to be evaporating off uh stuff like uh like a mother. And and so even over relatively short cooking times, you're gonna lose water. Over long cooking times, like overnight, you could potentially boil uh or not boil, but evaporate all the water out of your bath and your product can be ruined. And fourth, in a in a circulated bath, if you've done a bad job and not put a uh uh a rack or some sort of weight uh on top of your food such that it's like definitively sunk under the surface of the liquid, uh, you know, if you cover it, even if a little bit pokes up, you'll still get a fairly close temperature as long as the thing's totally sealed and covered up to what you want.
+
+[10:32] It's just not as effective a heat transfer mechanism. So always a good idea to cover a bath, the only exception being if you're uh have a reheat bath at a relatively low temperature during service and you're going in and out of it all the time. But uh under other circumstances, I always, always, always recommend uh covering the bath. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[10:52] Yeah. How are you doing, Nastasha? Yeah? Anything anything good happening? Nope.
+
+[10:56] We got some uh good news on the on the Booker and Dax front. Tristan Willie, uh, you know, the opening uh or you know, the guy who opened it with us, you know, the manager of Booker Dax, one best bartender in the country, according to Eater. You've been asking. Wow. You guys are quick on the uh quick on the on the clap a ton there, right?
+
+[11:14] So that was good news, right? Yeah, that's great, man. It's good business. Love myself some Tristan Williams. A little too tall for my taste, but other than that, good man, right?
+
+[11:23] Yeah, yeah. Uh okay. Uh we have a question in from uh Matt Mincer on brines. Hello, cooking issues, folks. I've got a question or three about brines.
+
+[11:33] When I barbecue pork or chicken, I make a brine with a heavy dose of my dry rub in it. The theory being that the water is being drawn into the meat uh and will carry some of that flavor uh from the spice with it. But I was listening to one of your podcasts where Harold McGee said that the flavor molecules from spices are probably too large to penetrate the cells of the meat. The question I uh I have is am I wasting my time and my spices by adding them to the brine? Has anybody studied which flavor molecules will penetrate the meat, if any?
+
+[11:58] And finally, how much brining is too much? It seems at some point the osmosis would reach equilibrium and anything more would give diminishing returns. Uh, I'm sure it depends on the cut of meat, but is there any rule of thumb? Thanks, Matt. And a PS I wrote in a few weeks ago about using mason jars in my centrifuge, and for the record, they work about 75% of the time.
+
+[12:16] The other twenty five, not so much. I'm assuming what that means is like awful things happened, right? And when you assume Piper that what he means is awful things have happened. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[12:25] Yeah, that's my guess. So uh yeah, it's Piper's first time on the radio. He, you know, he's not so much with the with the radio thing. He's he's a he's from Vermont. They don't have radios there yet.
+
+[12:36] Right? Is that true, Piper? Very true. Yeah. So here's the deal.
+
+[12:41] I think uh you're pretty much right and uh Harold's pretty much right in that most brines don't really penetrate the meat uh to a very large distance and so you're probably wasting a good bit of your spices. However, like brining something uh we're getting some sort of feedback action. You get in the hearing that Jack? Some sort of feedback action it's Piper's phone. It's Piper's phone?
+
+[13:02] Nice. Uh Vermont. So the uh the the the thing is is that um I think you could probably get pretty much the same uh reaction by doing your brine and then rubbing your spices on after it comes out of the brine. I mean that that's what I would do. Salt obviously gets carried into the meat um because it's an extremely small molecule.
+
+[13:24] You know I don't really know what the penetration effects of something like sugar is nitrates penetrate in obviously otherwise curing wouldn't work but larger molecules tend I think not to make it into into the meat. I think that's uh that's accurate fact acids tend to do certain work but they tend not to penetrate far which is why you get kind of a different texture on the surface of a meat or any place where there's a cleft in the meat where things can get into it you can get effect from acids and intermuscular connections and stuff but you're not going to get uh an effect from uh something like that in the dead center of a piece of meat in any reasonable amount uh amount of time uh I think you're right. I think that you know there is a diminishing uh diminishing return time, but that diminishing return time is going to depend uh almost primarily on the thickness of the piece of meat you use and the brine strength that you use. Uh so there's no real no real rule of thumb on brining the same way there would be on, let's say kind of curing, where everything's been written down uh by uh you know the the USDA and the various curing authorities on it. I mean Piper, you know any rule of thumb?
+
+[14:27] Any you disagree with anything I've said? No. No? Yeah, nice, nice. I need some of your pipe.
+
+[14:33] You need to like you do disagree with me. Are you gonna be like Nastasha where you don't disagree with me on air and then later you're gonna tell me I'm a douche? No, he'll tell me. He'll tell you that I'm a douche? Yeah.
+
+[14:42] And then you'll tell me and I'll yell at you. Is that is that how this is gonna work? Change of command. Oh jeez. Oh, jeez.
+
+[14:49] Alright, listen. Hey Jack, let's go to our first commercial break. Come back with more cooking issues. You're listening to Kill Me in the Summertime by Dead Stars on the Heritage Radio Network. Nothing left to hide.
+
+[15:20] Let this what they say. Sun erases again everything I move in for a need to in the summer time. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni.
+
+[16:57] This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at international culinarycenter.com. Did you guys steal that music from like uh the Hayden Planetariums like universe movie that they play right when you show up? It sounds like it. Maybe like Wizard of Oz on the loop or something too, I'm not sure.
+
+[17:17] Yes, it's crazy. I think that's what it is, though. It's like you know, you go and they're like, They're billions of stars, and it's like wheely deedly deeply. Can you can you play me a little bit of that wheedly deeply music? I want some of that some of that like universe.
+
+[17:27] You know what I'm saying? Like the spinning stars and stuff. Maybe we can like fade that in with uh fish is fish is vodka. Uh don't mess don't mess with the fish is fish song. Alright, I don't know.
+
+[17:35] Don't be messing don't be messing with the fish is fish song. Uh the uh the you know the Oh, by the way, we have we we haven't talked about that, right? You want to talk about the song that got sent in, the Fish is Fishes vodka? Yes, it's uh you know, uh because we couldn't play vicious, vicious vodka. We have a we have a sound-alike song, and so does the title.
+
+[17:52] And it was composed by uh someone on Twitter, Jack. Do you remember the name of the person? Jack doesn't remember. You guys are bad people. Yeah, we but no credit.
+
+[18:02] But uh next. Yes, yes. Uh we'll get we'll we'll get to we'll get we'll get we'll do another commercial break, come back with a full thank you. Anyway, uh so we got one in from at Clef's cooking issues. Any ideas on time and temperature for cooking cod sperm sacks low temp.
+
+[18:19] You gotta love a question like that. Cod sperm sacks at low temp. Any way to prevent coagulation of dairy. Also, second question, any way to prevent coagulation of dairy in a high acid system. So here's uh the thing.
+
+[18:30] Cod sperm, I would never say cod sperm when you're actually gonna serve it to someone. I mean, the term that we would use in food circles would be milt, like uncle milty, uh milt, cod milt. Uh I have not myself cooked cod milk. I've seen it many times. I think I've had it.
+
+[18:44] You've had the cod milk, right, Saz? Did you enjoy the cod milk? Yeah. Yeah. You had it, you had it where it uh Japanese style?
+
+[18:50] That yeah. And then with you at um what's that place in San Francisco? Where? Your friend. Which friend?
+
+[18:58] He does a lot of um over. Chris Cosantino? Yeah. We had milk there? Mm-hmm.
+
+[19:02] Uh, all right. So I guess yeah. Anyway, it's got like a texture similar to uh like a brains or something like that. But I have no idea how to cook it, uh how to cook at low temp. I mean, it's got such a delicate structure that I would worry about vacuuming it.
+
+[19:15] I would guess that it coagulates somewhere in the range of where uh an egg white would coagulate, so you'd probably want to cook it at like I don't know, 62, something like that Celsius. But I don't know. Because it you're supposed to steam it or fry it or something like that. It's supposed to be a delicate kind of puffy, uh puffy texture. What do you think, Pipes?
+
+[19:34] You think that's a good uh what did you do? You ever cooked the cod milk? No. I actually wasn't listening. No, it's like what the what the hell?
+
+[19:42] Well, well, Piper, it's because Piper's not uh trying to buy shoes on Zappos. Like somebody else we know Facebook who shall remain he's not on Facebook. He just clicked up. He's not on Facebook, Nestal. He's looking up oil prolimerization for me.
+
+[19:56] Anyway. So no, I do not have uh a good uh time or temperature on it, but I would assume uh it would be somewhere in that range, like 62. I don't never cooked uh I've never really done even low temp on my favorite kind of uh, you know, fish fish gonad part, which is uh roe. I've never done any really low temperature cooking on that, although I should, because I love shad row. Shad row is one of my favorite things to cook.
+
+[20:18] Uh you don't like the shadow, dude. Why do you not like the shadow? Something about isn't it gr like really grainy? Well, if you well, if you overcook it, it's grainy. Yeah, I had it when it was really grainy.
+
+[20:28] Who cooked it for? You're gonna you're gonna call it. No, I'm not gonna call. No? No.
+
+[20:32] All right, anyway. Uh but the second one, it just so happens uh at Cliffs that we have here Piper who uh his family is involved with uh uh CP Kelco, right? We have the man to tell you how to prevent uh the coagulation of high acid dairy systems. Piper with uh with some pectin, give me some pectin stabilization knowledge. Drop it on me.
+
+[20:55] Uh let's see. Um protein protection uh through what pectin Piper. What do you want by it? I'm still not listening. Alright, look.
+
+[21:06] The question was, Piper. Snap back. Okay. Finally. The question was uh how to do high acid dairy systems without coagulation.
+
+[21:13] And the answer I gave it to you just described which pectins is you like pectin to preserve high acid dairy systems. Pectin and uh CMC. That's carbo carboxy methyl cellulose for all of you who don't know what the hell CMC is and think it's a a a brand of truck. So he's using carboxymeth corite, is that true? Right?
+
+[21:35] Karboski muscle cellulose and where who b who makes that stuff? Actually CP Calco makes it. Yeah. Alright, can you buy that from Modernist Pantry? Uh I think you can.
+
+[21:44] From a Piper puts CMC in every freaking thing. Like he first of all, he's he's uh his body doesn't do so well with the gluten. So he he you know, use it for film forming and gluten-free bread. And also uh viscosity without having to deal with yield point like Xanthan. Yeah, yield point for those of you that have no idea what the hell we're talking about.
+
+[22:03] Yield point. So if you take Xanthan gum, it acts a little bit like a fluid gel. You sit it on a surface, you tilt it, and it acts like a gel until you put a certain amount of shear on it, at which point it automatically thins and turns to a liquid. That's called a yield point. So something with a yield point acts like that as opposed to something that is merely thick but will flow under all circumstances.
+
+[22:22] So two easy real-world examples uh that don't involve hydrocolloids that you can think of are like maple syrup, no matter how cold it is, it just flows but slowly. It doesn't have a yield point. Whereas uh ketchup, right? Ketchup does not flow until stuff uh until uh shear is applied to it and has a yield point and then it breaks. So that's that's what a yield point is.
+
+[22:45] So Piper's looking to uh strengthen something in a system without having a yield point, and he's using uh CMC and pectin, but you use a specific uh pectin, don't you? Uh there are a couple different types of pectin you can use. I like um let's see. Uh beta pectin, which is from beets. Right.
+
+[23:05] And what's the beta, what's the beta refer to for those of you that are out there in the in the pectin land? Yeah, kind of. I don't even know that. You know what? Like Piper worked at CP Kilco's like what were you, the research?
+
+[23:16] What are we? In the research labs? Yeah. Like busting stuff out? Yeah.
+
+[23:20] And so Piper will put pectin in just about any damn thing, and and CMC in just about any damn thing. So give him just give him a recipe, since you're not gonna tell them, just give them a freaking recipe. It's complicated. All right. Uh uh high concentration solution of beta pectin, like um like maybe five percent uh is mixed with you know uh the solution you want to acidify, and then it's continually mixed for like an hour or so, and then you slowly add your acid.
+
+[23:54] Um it depends. I mean, there's so many specifics. So you're saying it's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly without an accurate pH meter. I mean, you're gonna you're gonna just try and pour juice and like lemon juice into it?
+
+[24:05] Yeah. What's what's he trying to make? Well, I'm assuming he wants to do like you know, calpico water or something like that, or like some sort of like acidified dairy beverage. I'm assuming that's what he's trying to do. I would say make one high concentration solution of beta pectin or an HM pectin, and uh, and then add it in increments of like one percent total weight with uh with the dairy, and then slowly acidify, and you'll see that the flocculation point is going to it's gonna decrease pH wise.
+
+[24:41] All right. So Cles, there you have it. I wouldn't uh that's not so much a recipe you can take to the bank, but uh Piper will work on it, he'll get it out to you. By the way, I was looking up while Piper was talking, I was looking up Aaron's last name who who made the song. His last name is Robertson.
+
+[24:55] So Aaron Robertson, thank you for the fish is fish uh is vodka song. Uh really. Whoa. Wow. Abrupt end on the clap, guys.
+
+[25:07] Jesus. Killing me. Okay. Now, uh another interesting thing was brought up a couple weeks ago I didn't answer was uh a an oil polymerization technique uh that's made in Japan, another thing from Japan, called katameru tempuru, which I guess tempuru means like something like kind of like tempura, right? Tempura tempuru, I don't know how to speak Japanese.
+
+[25:24] Anyway, Karuna tempuru is a powder that you uh and I saw the video of it on on the on the internet. Amazing that what they want to do is you ever have like a liquid fat and you want to dispose of it and throw it in your trash, you can't because it's a liquid. So what you do is you add this powder to it and it instantly polymerizes, turns to a solid, which you then scrape out of the pan and you can throw in your regular waste trash. Now, um that's crazy. They I don't know how the hell it works.
+
+[25:51] It says it's some sort of algal thing, some sort of algal seaweed uh like nonsense. But I was like, nowhere was I able to find what's actually in it, what is actually doing it. And it's clearly some sort of I mean it's probably clearly, not clearly, I guess, some sort of polymerization where the oil is being uh linked. I doubt they're they're like instantly hydrogenating it because I don't know of any way to do that, because it's not a system where they're adding heat. They're literally just adding a powder to the oil and it's turning to a solid, which is nutty.
+
+[26:22] I don't know how the hell it works. Someone out there, please, if you know what this reaction is uh and what's causing it. Because remember, there's ways to do it in like that I found that are very, very non-food grade. But the question is how do you do it in a in a in a food grade way such that you're not doing something crazy to your pen? Like, are they somehow some sort of instance of ponification reaction where they're turning into a soap?
+
+[26:41] I have no idea. Someone please tell me. The only way I know how to solidify a fat like that, hardcore solidify it, is to add large amounts, like upwards of 10% by weight of mono and diglycerides. When that like so you could take a liquid fat, add 10% uh mono and diglycerides to it, uh, and you know, heat it a little bit, and then when it cools, it will thicken and turn to a pay, you know, a solid, and you can scrape it out. Um, and that's that's the only way that I, you know, that I've done it uh, you know, in the kitchen before, but I don't I don't really I don't know.
+
+[27:12] Anyway, so we're looking that up. Uh and we'll take a second break and we'll come right back with cooking issues. You're listening to weaving by Dead Stars on Heritage Radio Network.org. Have we lost our control? I don't know what I should do.
+
+[27:56] Waiting up when you know, I hope that we get this. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today.
+
+[28:47] And we're back. Okay, back on the bread. I was thinking about this for a second. Uh I read an interesting uh a couple of interesting articles. They don't actually relate to the question about oven spring, but uh I thought they were kind of interesting.
+
+[28:56] One is that uh these nut jobs are trying to figure out a way to uh determine how their bread is going to react uh to baking, and instead of doing the obvious thing for us, which would be to bake it, uh they uh put it in a vacuum chamber. And these guys uh by putting in a vacuum chamber, they expand all the air cells that are uh the air bubbles that are already in the dough, and they claim that at any point in the bread making process after the initial uh kind of mixing and the air air incorporation has happened, that they can get good correlations to the final bake volume just by putting the sucker in a vacuum and seeing how high it can uh it can raise up. There's another interesting picture on vacuum mixing in the in the bread science book that I told you about that's available in the checklist online, where she reproduces a picture of a bread that was mixed under a vacuum. It had the craziest pore structure. It was considered a bad pore structure, but I thought very interesting.
+
+[29:53] Like now I'm spending all morning thinking about uh like you know various uh, you know, ways to put vacuums on on bread. But the other really interesting thing is uh is an article I read about the temperatures at which the uh temperatures at which the the bread and this relates back to oven spring is setting and so the the point is is that the protein structure in a good bread uh in a in a good well-made dough the protein structure is going to hold the gas bubble integrity up to a point of about 60 degrees Celsius where a crappy bread dough is going to hold its structure up to a point of about 50 degrees Celsius. And so and the the key difference there is that that's right around the temperature that the starch gelatinization is taking place. So the protein is really only there to hold the structure of the bread uh while you're waiting for the starch to gelatinize and set. And that's why and you know and I think we've discussed about it a couple times uh in the past you know when you're working on a gluten-free bread like a lot like a lot of the problem is just getting it to react properly to the initial bakeout.
+
+[31:02] So it's the initial bakeout uh uh of it that's hard because you're getting the proteins they have to hold there until the interior of the bread uh gets up to you know 50 or or 60. And that's you know that's why when we're doing experiments we'll experiment with you know uh things that have weird kind of pre-gelling characteristics like like you'll add something to hold structure like a xanthan or like a CMC and then you'll add something to uh actually gel in that mid-range temperature where there's other things are going to start to fail like a uh methyl cellulose uh or some other sort of heat gelling uh uh property. Because the idea is is that it's not that the protein is important, I don't think it's important, but it's not you know majorly important to the final texture of the bread. I think the major, the major impact from the final temperature on the bread is going to be the starches and how they gelatinize. However, the major impact to the formation of that final structure is going to be how the protein works.
+
+[31:56] And so that's the really dig diggity dig that you get when you're trying to formulate a uh a bread without protein, wouldn't without without gluten proteins. Wouldn't you say that's yeah. Yeah. Now now Piper's learned to do the nostalgia and just say just say yes. Okay.
+
+[32:12] Uh Joshua wrote in last week, we didn't get to get to it, um, on beer. I hope this uh is still the correct email, and it is, even though we didn't answer it last week. Obviously, Nastasha got the email. Um a few questions. I'm an all-grain brewer, because I didn't answer this last week, did I, Sas?
+
+[32:26] Uh I'm an all-grain brewer and I have access to grains, hops, good brewing equipment, uh, wort, exact, etc. Which I like for some reason I don't know. They wort, I call it wort, but I was told that brewers call it wort. Okay. No, you don't care, you don't do a crap.
+
+[32:38] Okay. Uh are there some interesting things I can do with these base ingredients beyond beer or uh or the equipment used for it beyond low temperature cooking. Um that's interesting. I know I I love uh I've been trying to use mashing techniques and uh use the the amylase that so you what when you're when you're doing mashing, when you're doing an all-grain mash, what what you're you're using barley, uh you malt typically malted barley. When you're malting the barley, you're uh just uh allowing a little bit of the uh grain to grow, you're allowing it to germinate a little bit, and then you're stopping that uh while the enzymes are in there that will convert the starch uh in the barley, eventually convert the starch into sugars so that the growing embryo can um can use them.
+
+[33:22] You kill that such that the enzymes haven't been destroyed, but that the embryo isn't using all of that stuff, it isn't wasting any of the starch because you want to convert all that starch using the enzymes to sugar. So uh I've been uh not with much success, but trying to experiment using um using the enzymes in that to add other starches to do cooking related uh things. So uh to break down um potatoes, for instance, or break down even further sweet potatoes using a mixture of uh amylases from from grains. But I haven't had any sort of luck uh, you know, that I haven't had any sort of luck that makes me want to think that uh that's what I want to do for the next you know you know ten years. I'm having much more luck with um not with grain-based uh ferments doing interesting things, but uh Harold McGee has been turning me on to some really interesting uh rice-based fermentations, not Japanese, not koji-based, but you know, other weird uh symbiotic uh like mixtures of bacteria and uh fungal and uh yeast elements.
+
+[34:24] And uh I forget the name of it is, but these have these weird little they're called yeast balls that are from China that McGee kind of turned me on to that make this amazing fermented uh rice gruel that tastes unlike anything uh ever. So I've had more luck using that in culinary uh in culinary applications, but I haven't really had done much with beer. Now, malt is delicious, and malt, I think, uh, especially even the even the dried stuff that you can uh buy or the extract is an underused ingredient from a culinary standpoint. It's delicious. Uh, you know, malted mashed potatoes, you know, not malt like you know, baker's malt or like malt, like you make milkshakes with, but like large amounts of you know, uh brewer's malt, but uh malt powder, um, you know, DME dry malt extract, which you don't use because you're all grain, um, is a awesome uh addition, uh flavoring addition to to to many things that I use.
+
+[35:13] Two. I have a fair bit of beer. What are some interesting things I can do to play with beer for sweet or savory applications? I've been thinking about foams with methacyl F50 and I've used it in cheese preparations with sodium citrate. Um look, Methacel F50 beer applications are kind of one of the classic applications uh of Methell F50.
+
+[35:30] I mean, I think one of the first the in fact the first application I saw, Methell F50 is a hydrocolloid derived from cellulose uh that has very good whipping properties. And it's used uh mainly by chefs to make very dense, like kind of shaving creamy uh consistency foams because it makes a very fine celled foam as opposed to something almost uh akin to an egg white, uh as opposed to kind of the light airy foams that are produced by uh things like um uh by things like less than um you know VersaWhip is another foaming agent, but I I tend to think that Methacel F50 makes kind of a finer, kind of more egg-whitey uh foam than Versawhip usually does, although VersaWhip is also good for certain applications. Anyway, uh Methacel F50 also does something VersawWhip can't do, which is if you make a uh if you make a m like a like a whipped egg white texture thing with methylcel F50, a foam, you can pipe it uh onto a uh tray, throw it in a dehydrate or at 135 Fahrenheit for a couple of hours, then turn it down to hold it, and it'll make a crunchy, like uh crunchy meringue uh crispy thing with no protein in it. That's amazing. Now, the first application I saw of it was methacyl F50 was in fact beer, it was Sam Mason, uh who I don't know when his ice cream company is starting up again.
+
+[36:41] You know, did anyone know? Anyone, anyone? Uh it's gonna be delicious, I'm sure. Anyway, uh, was he was doing uh back at WD50 when he was a pastry chef at WD50, was making uh Guinness foam with Methylcel F50. And as I remember, I tasted it and my feelings was it will it was delicious.
+
+[36:57] Um obviously cooking with beer, uh is good. I've been using it a lot in in cocktail preparations, of course, that's nothing new. So I guess I don't have anything really new. I like this cheese application with sodium citrate, so I'm assuming you're making like processed cheese with beer. You think that would I mean or you'd have to add some sort of case you'd have to add some sort of like uh uh casein, extra casein to it.
+
+[37:17] You buy I did some work with um a product called rennet casein, and rennet casein is uh is casein that's been produced f from the process uh like where you actually rented it, and then you break it down, powder it, and you can reuse that to make cheese analogs. Uh and so I've done some initial experiments with uh rennet casein, but I'm sure that as long as you get the pH right with the with the beer that you can make a pretty interesting kind of beer cheese. In other words, it I I would be most interested in something not that had the flavor of cheese, but had the meltability of cheese, but tasted like beer. And I think that would be eminently possible with uh beer, rennet casein, and the right emulsifying salts. So I wouldn't just use citrate, you'd use a uh Dave, you have a call.
+
+[38:00] And let's keep it to one question. It's not a personal stuff. Wait, you're telling me it's not a personal friend call, the lady who's buying shoes on the internet. All right, caller, you're on the air. And caller, you have one.
+
+[38:13] Hi, uh Dave and Nastasha and friends. Uh this is Brian in San Francisco. Excuse me, I have a cold. Um but uh two questions. First is um lecithin.
+
+[38:25] Uh what's I I found in my natural food store the soy lecithin, which looks kind of like bee pollen. It's uh kind of crumbles. Right. And then but I've seen some recipes that want liquids, so what's the difference? Yeah, and I guess the first they call soy left lecithin.
+
+[38:42] Yeah, almost all the lecithin that you buy in uh in is from soy, and it's not that that's the only lecithin that's out there, it's just a byproduct of manufacturing all the other soy products. They have soy lecithin. I've never used liquid lecithithin. Do you ever use liquid piper? Yeah.
+
+[38:59] Did you like it? I mean it's like I hate the granules. Well, the granules are better. Look, granules are obviously the worst. The powder is pretty good.
+
+[39:06] You can buy a powdered one, and uh the the problem with the granules is first of all, I think they they tend to accentuate the off flavor that you can get from lecithin if you use it too much, and also they're hard to get what'd you say? You still there? They they they they're hard to get into the uh they're hard to get into solution sometimes, the granules, and uh the whereas the powder is like you know, easier. But the liquid, I mean, assuming if you can buy the liquid, if you can tolerate having uh extra extra, you know, liquid, I'm sure it's not sure it's oil based, right? Uh but if you could have it uh, you know, because lecithin would rather be in oil than in water.
+
+[39:42] You whenever you're talking about an emulsifier, you have to look at what's called the the hydrophobic uh lipo lip uh the hydrophilic lipophilic balance where you're looking at is it an oil loving emulsifier, is it a water loving emulsifier? And the big mistake most people make with uh lecithin is although it's kind of somewhere near the middle, it's not extreme on either side, lecithin is an oil loving uh emulsifier. So if it's coming as a liquid, it's almost certainly coming in an oil based uh liquid. Now I if I've never used liquid lecithin, but I would guess it's a lot easier to use because the the the pain in the butt about lecithin is gonna make it sure it's uh in the liquid properly. Right?
+
+[40:18] Wouldn't you agree? Yes. Yeah. I don't know. We I think we lost a caller because that we have some sort of like weird feedback loop going on here.
+
+[40:25] But back to cheese for one second. Uh the book that you guys want to get, and I think I've mentioned it on the on the uh show here before is Processed Cheese and Analogs by Adnan Tamimi. And uh that's gonna have all the recipes you need, and you can you can look at a good bunch of it on Google Books and see uh see what's going on. Finally, on the way out, we have a question. Well, okay, one more thing on cheese.
+
+[40:47] Uh, can sodium hexametophosphate be used as a replacement for sodium citrates and recipes as well as for sequestering calcium? If yes, is there a standard scaling amount for the amount used? I'm thinking specifically about a modernist mac and cheese recipe. Sodium hexametophosphate is not a single thing, it's a group of polyphosphate salts, uh, and it's a monster uh at sequestering calcium. Uh it's not a straight replacement for sodium citrate because they they have kind of different functions uh in a mac and cheese.
+
+[41:14] They they they function uh they function differently. Usually when you're making a cheese based uh thing, you need to add uh not just one uh emulsifying salt, but two or three. You're you and uh the function you need depends a lot on the pH of your system. So certain of the salts uh are more basic than others, and so you need to add them to get your pH in in the right level, and also they tend to have different textures depending on which one you use. And unfortunately, it's not a straightforward thing, it's kind of a little bit of a dark art, and so it requires a lot of experimentation.
+
+[41:47] A lot of it is still just people like testing recipes and keeping logbooks of what they do, but uh sodium hexametaphosphate and sodium citrate together, uh you should be able to get a lot of things under your belt having those two uh ingredients on hand when you're doing cheeses. Finally, can I explain my home seltzer system? Yes, here's what you do to make the if if you have the money and the time and uh and but now, but you don't want to spend money or time later. What you do is you get an under-the-counter ice machine, and then you drill a hole in the side of the undercounter ice machine. This is not this is what I kind of have at home.
+
+[42:14] What I have at home is a slightly more ghetto version of this. But you you take an ice machine, you drill holes in it, right? You buy a cold plate. Go to uh go to Mark Powers, they're in Guntersville, Alabama, cheapest. Get a cold plate, two circuits.
+
+[42:30] One circuit of a cold plate is not enough to get your seltzer cold enough for what you want to do here, right? So, what a cold plate is is it's a big stainless steel coil that's embedded in an aluminum block, and you keep that underneath uh ice, right? Now, one chain of a cold chain is not going to drop the temperature enough. So, what you do is you put the in you oh oh I forgot. You have to buy a carbonator.
+
+[42:49] A carbonator is a giant tank that holds water at room temperature with a pump, the same kind of pump, it's a rotary vein pump made by ProCon usually, and it's the same pump that you use in an espresso machine, and that's hooked up to your water supply. So you get you put your water supply straight out of your sink in through a filter. You put that uh goes through a filter, once it goes through the filter, it gets hooked onto the pump on your carbonator, right? You then get a 20-pound CO2 tank, you want to run it about 95, 96, 98 PSI, somewhere in there, into the tank. Now, your water mains are don't have enough pressure to inject water into a system that has that high of uh that high of a pressure.
+
+[43:25] So the pro-con pump overcomes that pressure and shoots the water, sprays it into the uh tank. That spraying makes such a fine surface area that the water is instantly carbonated. Now, uh you need to have it at 98 to uh 90 90 to 100 psi because you're doing it at room temperature, so that's under extreme pressure. It comes out of that, goes through two circuits of your cold plate, right? Two circuits of it, and it's underneath your ice machine.
+
+[43:49] So now you have constant ice supply and you have constant cold seltzer. When it comes out, the next biggest mistake people make is they use a crappy picnic tap like you would use for beer. They're worthless, useless. You need to get what's called a Becker squeeze valve. You can also get Becker, B-E-K, B E C B E C K E R.
+
+[44:07] Becker makes the best seltzer valves, no question, because it has a giant compensator in the back of it that allows you to make the transition from the high pressure region uh where the seltzer is to the low pressure atmospheric region, and they're and they're just they're they're free, it's freaking awesome. That's the system. So that's the system I have at 54 Eldritch. At home, the problem was I couldn't fit an undercounter ice machine uh in where I wanted to put it because uh it would have required too much uh ventilation problem. I just couldn't do it.
+
+[44:33] Plus, with all the tubes coming down from my espresso machine, because my espresso and my seltzer rig are together right where all my filtered water crap is. So I have to go through the awful, well, it's not awful. I built an insulated uh box like out of wood and uh spray foam and blue and blue foam uh with a condensation pump, right? You need a condensation pump with a condensation pump, and so now uh my freezer, which is across the aisle in my kitchen, I pull the ice out of it every day from the ice maker, dump it into my insulated box into the cold plate, and then that's how I get my cold seltzer. Uh and so that's my cold seltzer rig at home.
+
+[45:08] It's awesome. The one with the automatic ice machine is even better. Now that I have a seven-year-old that I can boss around, he actually does the ice, so it's just like having a manual ice machine, you know, a regular ice machine for me. But that's how I recommend doing it. It's the balls.
+
+[45:19] I never run out of seltzer. Cooking issues. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[45:58] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by 360 Cookware, American made green manufactured cookware using vapor technology. For more information, visit 360cookware.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:02] Alright! Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday, live at Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizza Ryan Bushwick, Brooklyn! Calling all your questions live to 718497-2128. That's 718497 2128. Hey Jack, what do you think about that intro?
+
+[1:20] Sorry, it really got you jazzed up, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We gotta what's awesome is how different the two songs are. We gotta like swap them back and forth. Well, see, I'm thinking the first one, the kind of interpolation, we can use that on the break.
+
+[1:30] It's kind of a jazzier, calmer break song. Think so? Yes. Yeah, I think so. Do you think I blasted out the view meter over there?
+
+[1:37] Am I okay with the intro? You did. We went red. Went red. That's my next band.
+
+[1:43] That was Joel Gargano, right? Yes, it was. Yeah, alright. I probably mispronounced his name, like I mispronounced everyone's name. If I didn't have my own name, I'd mispronounce my name, right, Stas?
+
+[1:50] You have two first names. I do have two first names, although I tend to forget it since my last name's been my last name since as long as I can remember. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, but also today her sister, the Mini Hammer. She she's who uh just recently started attending uh the Yale University, my old alma mater. She didn't take a mic, she said, I don't know, she's like takes so it's a it's a sister thing.
+
+[2:11] They're both sitting here on computers, crazy, crazy. And Jack and Joe in the engineering room. Hey. How do you do? Call your questions live to 7184972128.
+
+[2:19] That's 718497 2128. It is the Thanksgiving edition of uh Cooking Issues. And uh Stas, what are you doing for the Thanksgiving? Uh bunch of people coming over. Yeah, I don't think how many.
+
+[2:29] I don't know, six, seven. And uh what kind of wine are they gonna bring? No, that those people aren't coming. That's Saturday. That's the second time.
+
+[2:36] All right, so who's coming for who's coming for the for the real Thanksgiving? A bunch of people that don't have families. Okay, here's the thing. If you want to get invited to uh Nastasha's uh apartment for the Thanksgiving or for any event, just uh guarantee that you will A be late uh and B, uh if you were going to bring something, make sure that you get Nastasha to buy all the ingredients and you cook it by messing up her kitchen, and or bring any one point five liter five dollar bottle of wine. Right?
+
+[2:59] Isn't that what it what it takes to qualify to be one of your friends? They've started bringing water. No way. Like I don't think Poland Spring? They're like, I don't feel like drinking tonight, so I brought water, and then they drink.
+
+[3:12] Who cares what they feel like doing? Yeah, exactly. I want to drink. People, people. I assume that anyone listening to this program uh is a cook or likes to cook anyway, and has some sense of what it means to be a a a proper host.
+
+[3:26] Like for me, uh the worst thing that could ever happen to me, much worse than like uh accidentally like having the building uh fall down and me being naked in front of a bunch of people. Which is horrible, but like like much worse than that, or or worse even than I don't know, I can't I'm trying to imagine something worse. Uh but like running out of food at a dinner party. I would rather die than run out of food. I mean it's like the worst thing.
+
+[3:46] You know what I mean? I was raised at like then that just means that you're low quality as a person. You know what I mean? It's not that they ate too much, it's that you're puny and weak. Right?
+
+[3:54] Uh so, anyways, and as a guest, showing up empty-handed, the only thing worse than showing up empty-handed would be showing up with a bottle of water. Right. Like, if you don't want to drink, and you're going to someone's house, if you're not a drinker, fine, bring a dessert. Bring a cake. Yeah.
+
+[4:10] Cheese. Cheese. Yeah, if you're gluten intolerant, bring cheese. If you're lactose intolerant, bring a cake. If you're both, I have to think harder.
+
+[4:16] You know what I mean? But but bring something for Christ's sakes. Bring a gift. Bring jewelry, bring bring a book, bring anything. Show up empty-handed, show up with water.
+
+[4:23] Just say I don't want to come. If you don't want to go to the person's house, right? If it's too much of an investment to spend, you know, 15, 20 bucks a wall uh bottle, you know, on a bottle of good wine, then just don't go. Just say no. Oh, I enjoy your company, but I want to just bring some water.
+
+[4:39] Hey, crap on you. Then stay and clean the whole god dang thing. People. Where do people come from? I don't know.
+
+[4:46] What the hell is wrong with people? Happy Thanksgiving. Uh okay. We got this question in from uh Alex in Florida about bitters. Uh dear Jack, Dave and Nastasha 2.
+
+[4:56] Uh I've been uh curious recently about making my own bitters. At the bar, do you use a traditional Angostura slash Paisho's, or do you have a recipe of your own? I want something that would make a brandy old fashioned really pop and maybe another interesting flavor while I'm concocting. What's the ideal proof to start with? And how long do you age for ideal flavor extraction?
+
+[5:13] Extraction, and would an ISI whipper be able to speed up the process or just throw the flavors off balance? Thanks and help for your show, Alex from Florida. Alright, well, look, uh, no, we do not make our own uh bitters uh at at the bar. Uh we use Angostures and Paisho's just a little note to you. I detest Pesho's bitters.
+
+[5:29] I think they taste like cough syrup. I will tolerate them in traditional drinks like Sazerac, but uh I just I'm not I'm not a fan. In fact, uh at the bar, we didn't serve it to customers because it's uh it's uh illegal, but I prefer to use actual Robotussin uh to mix with uh so we were doing like we were doing Sazerak Sesurp uh drinks that we were calling uh we call we call them RoboSack, actually was the thing. And then when we flamed it with the red hot poker uh in an homage to the Simpsons, we were calling it uh the flaming Mozarak. But uh anyways, uh so not a huge Pesho's fan.
+
+[6:02] Uh but if you want to make your own bitters, first of all, I uh I recommend that to get a ballpark of what you're doing, go out and purchase uh bitters, a spirited history of a classic cure all with cocktails, recipes, uh, and formulas uh by Brad Thomas Parsons. Um go ahead and read that. That's the book on uh bitters. Uh he actually comes to the bar, he's a nice guy. Uh good book.
+
+[6:22] And uh, you know, don't I I couldn't look at my copy because I have it at the bar for our bartenders to use as a reference. I couldn't look at my copy this morning, but uh go take a look at that one. Most of his recipes uh are a little bit low on proof. Uh Angostura, when it's finished, uh starts at 45. Uh I mean, is it 45 uh percent alcohol by volume if that gives you kind of a uh a ballpark?
+
+[6:42] Um the higher alcohol you anything that you do when you're making a bitters is gonna change it. It's not gonna make it necessarily better or worse, but it's gonna change it. So um Brad usually does a two-part extraction, right? Where he'll do an initial extraction into pure ethanol uh and then not pure, sorry, sorry, into like liquor, like a hundred, hundred, hundred and 100-101 some of the some medium-proof bourbon or spirit. Then he will take the solids out of it, then re-steep those solids in water uh at a high temperature boiling.
+
+[7:12] So if he'll do a room temperature uh uh infusion into liquor for a week, two weeks, a couple days, whatever it depends on the product. Then take the solids out, boil them with water, reduce that, add that back to the alcohols to do a two-part infusion. If you do ISI, it's gonna change it. Some people on the internet use very high proof alcohol and extract for less amount of time, and none of these things is gonna make anything better or worse. If you're using an ISI bottle, which is a technique I developed a little while ago for infusing very rapidly, that's going to change the infusion.
+
+[7:40] What it's going to do is uh anytime you do a rapid infusion technique at low temperature like ISI or any form of pressure, it's gonna typically extract volatile notes more than it's gonna extract the deeper, baser, uh more bitter notes. So if you're gonna do a coffee infusion with ISI rapidly, it's gonna extract more of the coffee aroma and less of the inherent bitterness. Uh very long-term extractions in high proof ethanol are gonna extract a lot of the stuff, including all of the bitters. So it all depends on how you want to extract it, which flavors you want uh to pull out. You know, if you extract at a lower proof, the flavor balance will be different if you extract for the same amount of length uh time at a higher proof or longer, uh shorter at a higher proof.
+
+[8:16] So the short answer is there's no answer. Uh one thing I will say is a lot of people where they really mess up is they change the amount of liquor uh to that they use to the product, or they use low quality or impotent uh product. So if you're gonna sourcing a really crappy uh gentian uh, for example, or really crappy or old spice, you're never gonna get the same amount of flavor, even if you ramp up the quantity, uh than you would if you did uh if you got a higher quality product or a fresher product. Similarly, if you were to just say, listen, I want to do it faster, so I'm gonna add twice as much gention, let's say, to something. Uh or if you're at doing, I don't know, gin or something, or a root or something.
+
+[8:54] If you're gonna add twice as much, right? Uh that doesn't make it twice as strong or the same amount of strength in half the time, it changes the flavor. But again, it doesn't make it any better or any worse. But as a ballpark for a more traditional bitters kind of a flavor, go look at uh go look at that book, uh bitters, and then if you want to try something that's uh maybe less on the deep notes but has a lot of more of the aromatic notes, and you want to do something quickly, try doing the ISI infusion. When you're starting, do individual infusions of the flavors to see how they mix so that you can mix them, then see whether or not if you combine them at the same time, you get the same extraction, a similar extraction.
+
+[9:28] Because you probably won't. Adding different spices is going to change the overall concentration relative to the uh liquid and the alcohol present, might change the flavors of the way they melt. It's a very complicated uh kind of a thing, and so you have to practice. But once, but make sure when you're doing it that you keep extremely accurate, copious records of exactly what you did so that you can reproduce it. The worst thing in the world is to come up with something that's delicious and then you can't reproduce it.
+
+[9:49] I hate that. Hate it. Absolutely hate it. Um I had one more note, but I forget what it is. I don't know.
+
+[9:54] Couldn't have been I mean, it probably was extremely important. It was probably the most important thing that I was gonna say. Like the rest of it's just fluff compared to the one thing I was about to say, but it's it's gone. It's out of my head. It's it's it's history.
+
+[10:04] Sorry about that. Anyway, uh okay. Um moving on. Red writes in cooking low temperature pork shakes have been giving me some issues. I've done them twice now with the same results.
+
+[10:16] Funk, not funk in a good way. See, funk, like a long, long time ago, funk just meant kind of like smelly, like behind smelly, smelly stuff like funk. That's a nasty funk. And then funk became kind of a good thing, kind of like James Brown funk, and now I think funk is bad to be back to being a bad thing. At least when it's cooking, funk is bad, right?
+
+[10:32] You pro funk or anti funk? Anti? Anti, yeah, okay. Uh funk. Uh the first time, although there's a town in Nebraska called funk.
+
+[10:39] Did you know that? Funk, Nebraska. There's a university, the university of Funk. Can you imagine? Yeah, I mean, like, I don't understand why everyone in the world, if I had known about it when I was applying to school, I was saying crap on Yale, I'd be going to the University of Funk.
+
+[10:51] But anyway, uh the first time uh my funky, my funky funky shanks were cooked with an Asian style marinade. No dip at 85 degrees, uh, no dip at 85 degrees Celsius, meaning dipping them first at 85 degrees Celsius to kill the bacteria on the outside. So there's no dip, and they went into a water bath at 60 degrees Celsius for approximately 48 hours. The second time was with no marinade and a three-minute dip at 85 degrees Celsius into a bath at 60 degrees Celsius for about 48 hours. All the pork shanks were cooked with uh the full skin on.
+
+[11:21] Uh note interesting though, uh change red changed two different variables, right? Changed the marinade and the dip. So we don't what we don't have is we don't have marinade plus dip, whether or not that equals funk, right? Okay. Anyway, uh all the pork shanks, and we also, I don't know for, for instance, whether or not both had the exact same kind of funk, because there's there's various kinds of funk.
+
+[11:42] There's kind of bacterial funk, which usually gives kind of a cheesy, almost sauerkrauty or blue cheese or definite off note that's usually caused by uh lactobacillus that are growing in your bag, either due to uh not heating it up fast enough, having some contamination. Well, that's what it's due to having some contamination, not heating it up fast enough to kill them before they can produce their nasty aromas. Uh but secondly, certain meats can have a certain kind of funk. So for instance, dry age meats have a certain kind of funk. And also, if you've ever made, if any of you ever out there have ever made a pure pork stock, Stas, you ever made a pure pork stock, like without a lot of browning flavors in it, without a lot of everything.
+
+[12:15] If you just like cooks like straight like pork with like no skimming of the stock beforehand, all the bones, sometimes you get like that weird kind of I don't know how to describe it, porky aroma. Anyone in the studio know what the heck I'm talking about? Yeah, I've had enough pork. Yeah, but you know what I'm talking about? Like that pork uncovered by any sort of Mayard flavor and also kind of without any flashing off of the volatiles and kind of nowhere moving, can have this kind of like porky, skinny, kind of like you know when you when you make a very strong gelatin solution, you get some of that kind of like weird that aroma.
+
+[12:45] So I don't know whether that's what you're describing as funk, in which case that one that's a separate issue. But we're gonna assume on bacteria is what we're dealing with. Anyway, all the pork shanks were cooked with the full skin on. My question is what is causing the funk? I would have thought that the 85 degrees C, uh, which is very high in Fahrenheit, land-free Fahrenheit folk, uh, dip for three minutes would have taken care of any surface issues.
+
+[13:03] Do I need to skin them? And is the temperature just too low? Uh, I've also cooked some at 85 degrees Celsius for 12 hours with no issues except being overcooked for my taste. Think of trying 75 degrees C for approximately 12 hours the next time. I've had great success with lamb shanks at 62 degrees for 48 hours.
+
+[13:19] So I'd appreciate any insights you might have on this. Uh P.S., my wife and I will be taking uh trek trekking off to the European Union a week after Thanksgiving, and we'll be in New York on the 28th and 29th before we leave. Our plans are to stop by and have lunch at Sombar and then at Booker and Dax for uh lunch and cocktails. We also have reservations for WD-50 that evening. Red.
+
+[13:38] Listen, Red. Um Booker and Dax does not open till six. Does not open till six. I'm sure Wiley will let you come get a cocktail at Booker and Dax at six before you go off to WD-50, or after you go to WD-50, uh come by Booker and Dax and have some cocktails. Uh, but we don't open uh the bar until six.
+
+[13:59] I will also say this, not to like shortchange your ability to come to my bar and have drinks, but WD-50 also has an extremely interesting bar program, and I really am a big fan of their cocktails. And it is my feeling that in general, restaurants don't get enough play for their uh bar programs. For some reason, uh cocktail writers tend to overlook restaurants when they uh look at their cocktails, when they look at interesting cocktails, they tend to focus solely on standalone bars. And uh it's stupid, it's dumb because restaurants uh have uh what's interesting about restaurants is they typically have a large uh back of house system, and often in really good restaurants, chefs and bartenders will uh talk to each other and communicate, and uh the bartender will have access to some interesting ingredients from the back of the house that they wouldn't ordinarily have at a normal bar. So check out the uh cocktails when you're at the WD-50.
+
+[14:47] Okay, back to your funky question. Um I don't know, uh it'll be interesting to see if you did the marinade because as you'll see later if I get to it, uh uh some marinades have uh antibacterial effects. I'm assuming that's what's causing it is not just kind of the natural inherent porkiness that that you're talking about. I'm assuming what's causing it is a bacteria, and the only explanation I could have is that your bags got crowded, and that even with the C with the high C dip, you may be it's a high C, you know what I mean? High high temperature dip, uh, that there were parts of the bag that got bacterially contaminated, whether it was from getting stabbed with a knife, whether it was from bags being packed closely together, or if you had multiple portions with sauce in them inside of a single bag, and then that part couldn't be penetrated by the by the hot water when you were doing your dip.
+
+[15:29] Um, one of those things must be the cause, because that's the only time I've ever had uh funkiness happen. And at 60 degrees Celsius, you should not have any sort of uh funkiness. Now, definitely 75 degrees C, if there's a bacterial problem, the penetration is going to be fast enough to kill anything and stop the uh stop it from going going south on you. But I would think that 60 degrees Celsius is also hot enough to have that happen, unless they were really tightly packed. In which case I would really make sure that your packs are very, very far separated in your bath to make sure that you're getting adequate uh circulation around it, because usually it's lack of circulation in the bath that's the problem, or a very large uh large, large thing that's the problem.
+
+[16:06] On this, by the way, I have to say a little bit how I'm gonna cook my uh my turkey this year. How are you cooking your turkey styles? I don't know yet. It's like your what does your mom do? Just throws it in an oven at like one degree.
+
+[16:16] What's your what's the technique from your at your house? She wakes up at six and puts the turkey in for eight hours. Yeah? Turkey jerky? How is it?
+
+[16:24] How's your mom's turkey? How's the turkey nutty? Don't worry, she's not gonna listen. How is it? It's alright.
+
+[16:28] It's alright. That's the that's the thing, alright? Yeah? Yeah. You slather that sucker in gravy if it happens, right?
+
+[16:36] Right? Is that what goes on? Jack, Jack and Joe, how about you guys still over there? What what are your turkeys like? Uh my mom's process is pretty similar to Nastasia's.
+
+[16:45] Yeah? So good for sandwiches, but not so good on day one. Yeah. Lots of gravy is necessary. Yeah?
+
+[16:51] Yeah. Alright, well, listen. Normally, for the past several years, I think what are three years we've been doing this, Doz. I've been doing my like uh bionic turkey, where you completely bone a turkey inside out. Uh then you make a like an aluminum uh hollow uh uh pseudoskeleton, and then you pump hot oil and butter through the pseudoskeleton after you've brined it, that you puff the turkey up with uh an artificial uh aluminum foil kind of carcass, and then you pump hot butter through it to cook it from the inside out and then finish it in butter and then do a flash fry on the outside to crisp up the skin.
+
+[17:21] And if I do say so myself, it's a delicious, uh delicious turkey. It's a good it's a delicious bird. Hey, oh but uh so here's the thing though. Like uh my stepfather, uh, although the only things he likes are wine and fishing and cigars, and I guess third, like my family. Uh the uh like the or fourth, whatever it is.
+
+[17:42] I think we're I think we make it to fourth. Like there. And the dogs are maybe just below or just above us or below me. Anyway, uh, so he hates anything that's uh a big uh a big mishigash. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:53] He's like or a big Gembota, as he says. So uh, you know, I fried my first turkey at my mom's house, and like a little oil spilled on the lawn and killed a patch of grass, which no one has walked on in 22 years. And yet I heard about it. Dave, you destroyed the lawn. Oh, he went to his bedroom and fell asleep.
+
+[18:10] I ruined it all of Thanksgiving. All of it, totally ruined. And then next year, my mom's like, hey Dave, or two years because I alternate with my in-laws, right? And they hey Dave, fry the turkey again. But didn't tell Gerard, my stepfather.
+
+[18:20] I was like, have you told Gerard that we're gonna fry the turkey again? She's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem, no problem. So she doesn't talk like that. She's uh she's a world-renowned doctor.
+
+[18:26] Anyway, uh so we um we uh I bring it. Gerard doesn't know we're gonna fry the turkey, also a world-renowned doctor, doesn't know we're gonna fry the uh the turkey again, immediately, even before we start cooking, goes upstairs and falls asleep. I didn't want to kill the grass, so I did it on the flagstone, and I got oil on the flagstone, and so he went out and it was one of those sub-freezing Thanksgivings, you know, back before global warming. And he starts uh and he starts hosing down the deck, which starts freezing over to try and get the thing off. So it did two Thanksgiving's ruined.
+
+[18:54] So I am not bringing the robo turkey. Last year I brought the robo turkey, I cooked it at my house and brought a pre-cooked robo turkey to the to the house. But you know what? This one I'm just gonna say crap on it. I'm not gonna do it.
+
+[19:06] But here's my technique that I'm gonna try to do that you guys can maybe do for the fast turkey. Ready for this? Ready for this? It's a variant on what I used to do back in the old days. The way I would cook a turkey is I would bone the whole turkey out, completely bone it, like you would a chicken.
+
+[19:20] You can look at Jackie, Jackie Peeps, that's French for Jacques Popin. Jackie Peeps has a recipe for it in chicken. So I would roll the whole um, you know, bone it, stuff it with uh stuffing, tie it back together as a roll, and cook it really quickly. It cooks very, very quickly, right? Now remember, you don't want to start store stuffing in a turkey because you can get all sorts of bacterial contamination that then isn't destroyed by heat, and you know, you can make your family sick, all this, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[19:41] Go look it up if you don't believe me. Anyway, it's a bad idea. But here's what I'm gonna do this year. Uh I don't want to break the turkey. In other words, I'm not going to, I'm not gonna bone it by cutting down the skin on the back and totally unfolding it like I normally would.
+
+[19:51] I'm gonna inside out, I haven't told my mom this yet. I'm gonna inside out boning it, bone it like I would for a robo turkey, right? Now here's the ball or move. I'm gonna, my mom's stuffing is great. I don't even care what you think.
+
+[20:01] Your mom, you think your mom's stuffing is good? Crap on your mom's stuffing. My mom and my good stuff. Everyone likes their own mom's stuffing. You like your mom's stuffing styles?
+
+[20:07] Yeah. Yeah. No matter what, no matter how overcooked your normal bird is, everyone loves their their parents' stuffing, right? Jack Joe? Yes.
+
+[20:14] Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna take my mom's stuffing. I'm not even gonna touch it. I'm gonna let her make it.
+
+[20:18] I'm not gonna sit there and be like, hey, ma, I have more sage. But by the way, parents don't use sage, they use poultry seasoning because they grew up in like the 50s and 60s, so they use that stuff just called poultry seasoning. Anyway, so uh we're gonna make the stuffing mix. I'm gonna heat that sucker up in the oven until it's done, mix it with a little bit of gravy. Done, right?
+
+[20:34] Hot, hot like hell. Now remember, I cook a lot, so my hand's completely impervious to heat. I was teaching at the French culinary the other day, and I was had someone infusing something in a bottle in a stove, and I was like, take it out of the, take it out of the pan, and then I can't, it's too hot. So I just reach over, picked it up, and held it for a couple minutes while I was talking to prove that they was a chump. Anyway, so like uh it's just because I have no feeling.
+
+[20:54] It's really a stupid trick. Because you have no feeling in your hand. Anyway, so it Nastasia says I have no feelings in general. She says I'm a monster. And not in a good way.
+
+[21:01] Not like when I say someone's a monster, it means they're good at something. Like when she says it's a monster, she means like they should be relegated to a pit with wailing and gnashing of teeth if you read the Bible. Uh so um, anywho, uh, so I'm gonna take this hot stuffing and I'm gonna I'm gonna take my inside out burnt bird, and instead of using aluminum foil, I'm gonna shove like boiling hot stuffing into the bird so it starts cooking from the inside out, so the stuffing's already above the cook temp. So the stuffing's actually gonna act like a heater and then throw it into a hot oven. And that turkey's gonna be done lickety freaking split, and it's also gonna be brine beforehand, so it's not gonna be able to cook.
+
+[21:33] So that's gonna be my turkey this year. What do you think? Good. Take pictures. Uh take pictures.
+
+[21:36] You know I won't. I'll try. I'll try. But anyway, so that's what I'm gonna do uh for for this year's bird. Oh, by the way, guys, Nastasha, did you Okay?
+
+[21:44] So we had the CNN in for a while before the uh about before the hurricane. Uh and they're doing a a half in a half-hour uh thing. Expose Expose. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:56] Yeah, hopefully, no, don't worry, folks. There's no exposing of of me, thank Christ. And so anyway, so like the uh uh it's it's a show called The Next List, The Next List. What am I so someday I'll be the now list, but like anyway, but like we're the next list. And uh yeah, so anyway, so it's gonna be on uh on the what's it called?
+
+[22:14] CNN. CNN on Sun, no, but on Sunday at 2 p.m. Yeah, Eastern Standard Time. Well, it's when the show is aired. What do you want out of me?
+
+[22:21] So apparently they're airing promos, but please watch it and tell and somehow I don't know what it did. Please watch it. Email, let us know what you think. Yeah, email let us know let us know what you think. Uh I'm super happy.
+
+[22:31] Uh I'm excited that uh they decided to do the uh see what Jack looks like. Yeah, oh Jack's on it? Nastasha managed somehow to be sick or cooking a chicken every time that they were like uh by the way, the little quotes mark in my thing. Are you on camera? No.
+
+[22:45] Because literally, like you think Nastacha's face is buried in her computer normally. She like took and built like a cardboard. Do you know what dogs wear when they when they're when they bite themselves and you put the cone on their head to stop them from biting themselves? You guys know what I'm talking about? She like put one of those around her head and then like taped that to her computer monitor so that no one would ask her any questions.
+
+[23:03] I think even though they were with us for hours and hours and hours, like not once did Nastasha peep on the dang thing, just so she could uh maintain the uh the fiction amongst people that like somehow I'm always yelling at her and she never gives back Sass. Does Nastasha not give back Sass? Oh, yeah, okay. Oh at least she has her sister in mortal mortal terror, not saying anything. Okay.
+
+[23:25] Joel uh Gargano wrote in uh who you know from the famous uh song you just heard before. He says, I know I write in often, I know, but this is for good reason. This is regarding the song. A while back, Dave asked people to create an intro song for the show. Uh this is my original song that I allow you to play without threatening you with legal action.
+
+[23:39] I recorded it all in my basement next to the furnace. Punks. Enjoy. It's a hardcore punk version that is certainly a hoot. Hope to hear it next week or soon.
+
+[23:47] It's only forty seconds. The ending is a good lead in for Dave's calling your questions to cooking issues. Uh and that's why how I used it. I thought I used it uh well. I will say though, no, you should have said 71849.
+
+[23:56] Yeah, Mr. Gargano did not remember the number. No, but Dave was supposed to say it. I did say it afterwards, but you didn't say it in front of you. I thought it would be better to get the monster truck rally voice in.
+
+[24:06] I don't know. You think I was wrong? Should I should I not give Monster Truck? No, I think you should have done Monster Truck phone number. Monster Truck 718, 497 21, 28.
+
+[24:14] That's 718 497, 21, 28. Like that? Yeah. All right. Uh if this wins some sort of contest, the grand prize must be a personal phone call from Harold McGee, reading verses of my choice from on food and cooking.
+
+[24:27] Preferably the section on my yard reactions. That one gets me all jazzed up. I'm not kidding. But I'm gonna tell Harold that. I I wish I'd heard that before, because I just spoke to him a couple days ago.
+
+[24:35] He's gonna be in town, but not for a Tuesday. Someday we'll get a bad thing. I'm gonna send it to Harold and see whether he'll agree to the case. Harold can call us anytime and we'll record that for him. And he can yeah, but he wants a personal phone.
+
+[24:47] We gotta get them both on the phone reading sections on MyRad reaction from on. I want I want to hear some tweets in on my tweet if you guys want to hear Harold McGee call in and just do an oral reading of sections of On Food and Cooking regarding Myrod reactions as a favor to Joel. I vote yes. I do too. I vote no.
+
+[25:05] Uh Francois writes in regarding the ongoing question of what the hell is in Katamaro Tempura, which is the stuff that they make in uh Japan to solidify your fry oil, and he writes in, gives sends us a picture of it that says, Look at the label, the same as your beloved Ziploc bag. And it's true, Francois, that uh uh the Katamaro Tempu, the or uh tempura, the oil hardening crap from Japan, which supposedly is in quotes seaweed, whatever the hell that means. I I could build like a weapon of mass destruction out of seaweed if you broke it apart enough and did it well. Anyway, whatever, that's not my point. My point is that it is made by SC Johnson Wax, a family company.
+
+[25:40] But, Francois, unfortunately, if you go to SC J Johnson Wax, a family company, and you look up their list of ingredients, they only give you ingredients for their American stuff, and then they send you for any other ingredients to the Japanese website, which is guess what, not in English. And then I tried to do Google Translate, and nowhere could I find any information regarding the ingredient list on Katamara tempura. So it is still a mystery. If anyone's listening in Japan, please purchase a box of this or look at the ingredients and tell me exactly what the hell's in it. Get someone from the SC Johnsonwax.jp corporation to tell you what the hell this is so we can figure out what kind of reaction it is.
+
+[26:15] Should we take a break? Yeah, but uh Coffee Mike just wrote us in and says the best turkey he ever made was in three parts. Break down the bird, made stock from the carcass, braise the legs in stock, and then roast the breast on top of the legs. Alright, listen, coffee Mike, before we go to a break, there are a couple things I think that are correct. First of all, there's what's the best tasting bird, and then there is the necessity, as an American, to present a full freaking bird at the table.
+
+[26:39] Sometimes I've even had like people break it apart, cook a bird for taste, and then cook a bird for looks, which I think is kind of weird because it's a waste of bird. But one thing I will say is boning out the turkey, which I'm gonna do, does give you the opportunity to make a delicious stock to add to gravy beforehand. So coffee Mike, good call, and I got a question answer for you after the break! Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member.
+
+[27:11] Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today.org. Americraft is an American company. And like Heritage Radio Network, they provide the best. Their 360 cookware is made of the highest quality ingredients, like United States Steel.
+
+[28:17] It is made in the greenest cookware manufacturing plant in the world. Americraft makes great cookware and is focused on improvement. 360 Cookware is their exclusive line. It's a contemporary line of cookware and bakeware intended to let you, the Heritage Radio Network listeners, have a unique cooking experience. Its vapor seal allows food to be cooked in its natural juices, preserving all of the vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients without added water, oils, or fats.
+
+[28:43] 360 Cookware invites you to learn more about how this process works on their website.com. And we're back. Hey Jack. Today's program. Jesus.
+
+[28:57] Sorry, guys. Well, today's brought to me by what? What's the second one? We're gonna talk about it. No, we'll just keep going, right?
+
+[29:02] We're gonna talk about the wine? Yeah. Well, the wine was just a that's just a leftover gift. Leftover gift? Yeah.
+
+[29:08] A bonus sponsor gift. Is that our sponsor gift? Is what Passetti Pecorino? What is peccarina? How does Pecorino?
+
+[29:15] The goat grape, the goats specifically like this grape. They used to feed the sheep and goats on the grape. For real? Yeah, before they started making wine with it. And then they fertilize it, so.
+
+[29:24] Have you visited this region? Yeah, I have. Nice. Well, it's an enjoyable wine. Who makes this thing?
+
+[29:37] This is a barter house wine. Oh, I thought they dropped out of sponsoring. They're still friends. Oh, listen. Okay.
+
+[29:44] Chuck S. writes in. Okay, we're gonna talk about Jersey in a minute. In a minute? I'm gonna get a question.
+
+[29:48] Because I don't want to run, I don't want to actually miss the clip. I want to try to get through all my questions for once. Alright. Chuck S writes in. Uh oh, uh sorry, so loud.
+
+[29:55] Uh, I'm looking at buying a pressure cooker. From listening to your show, it seems like Coon Recon is a good brand to get, although they have never given us a damn thing. Right? They're Swiss, right? Yeah, they're Swiss.
+
+[30:05] They don't give anything away. It's like the Paco Jet people. They don't give anything. They take, they don't give. Nastasha loves the Swiss.
+
+[30:12] What? Yes. Yeah, she loves the Swiss. Anyway, uh it seems like Coon Recon is a good brand to get. I'd like to know a bit about the trade-offs with the various sizes they make.
+
+[30:20] It seems like you can get a pressure cooker with anywhere from a five-liter to an eight-liter capacity for similar amounts of money. I'm interested in using the pressure cooker to make stocks, beans, etc. Normally I cook for two to poor people. Two to four to poor people. Two to four people.
+
+[30:33] For instance, are there issues with buying the one uh one of the larger pressure cookers and using it to cook small batches of food? Similarly, do you have to cook uh leave a lot of headspace when using the pressure cooker so that the smaller, e.g. five-liter cookers, are effectively too small to make any practical amount of stock. Thanks a lot, and I really enjoy listening to the show. Okay, look.
+
+[30:50] I'll tell first of all, I'll tell you the one I own. I own uh they have two different main three main lines. The two main ones, they have things called pressure cookers, and the pressure cookers have handles on them typically. So do the fry pans. Uh, and then they have ones that they call stock pots.
+
+[31:07] And the stock pots don't have uh kind of pant handles, long handles that you can hold. They have the little like like dumbo ear handles like a pot has. Is that make sense, Daz? You know what I'm talking about? Okay.
+
+[31:17] So what I own is the um seven quart or a seven liter or whatever it is, uh pressure cooker with the long handle. And I've had it for a long time, probably 12 years or something like that. And I've beaten it doesn't have any handles on it anymore. I've broken them all off. There's there's nothing left on it.
+
+[31:34] I've lost the vapor lid. It's all it's all history. Um, and I use it uh constantly. And uh that's the one that I would recommend uh you get for uh any size, uh any size, unless you're cooking extremely large amounts, that's what I'd get. If you're cooking beans, beans tend to have a lot of uh uh uh things that trap air and gas.
+
+[31:54] That's what makes you toot when you have the beans, is the fact that they have compounds in them that you don't break down that can trap gas, hence the gas. Anyway, uh so uh toot. So, like um it so therefore you want a taller pressure cooker to allow that stuff when you're doing a release. If you do a release, I typically don't like fast release on a pressure cooker. I let natural release happen.
+
+[32:16] But if you're gonna do a fast release, you're gonna want a taller head on it. Anyways, uh the seven uh the seven liter or seven quart, I guess it's seven liter. The seven-liter uh pressure cooker that I have has uh a bottom of uh eight point seven five inches, which is nice for my stove top so it doesn't scorch, it doesn't have a lot of hot spots, and it's got a really high quality bottom. All right. Now I'm gonna run through all the sizes so that I'll give you an idea because the prices are fairly similar.
+
+[32:41] You want to get one that is gonna function all around for you best. I know you normally cook for two to four, but if you're ever gonna do six to eight or you're gonna make a large quantity of stock to freeze, you're gonna want uh higher quantity, all right? The 3.5 quart has a smaller bottom, eight inches, it's too small. I don't know why the hell you would ever buy that. Because frankly, it doesn't take that long.
+
+[32:59] What I usually do when I'm working is I'll get the pressure cooker up to temperature with the lid off, and that way I can keep stirring it while the lid is off before I can get it up to boiling, uh, and that prevents it from scorching. I know some people like just throw the ingredients in, cap the lid, and let it come up. I think that's a mistake that's gonna cause uh scorching because you're not moving the stuff around once the lid is on. If that's your style, if for some reason like that's your level of personal laziness, then maybe you need to get a smaller one so that it builds up a pressure head faster, right? But if you're not gonna do that, then once it's boiling, it builds up ahead of steam fairly quickly.
+
+[33:31] So it's not that much longer to build up pressure in a large pressure cooker within reason than it is in a small pressure cooker. Now, if you all of a sudden get a pressure cooker that's so large that your stove has trouble getting all of that material up to temperature fast enough, then pressure cookers that are too large are a huge problem. And I have an American pressure canner that's huge. How big is that when we have stas? It's huge.
+
+[33:52] Yeah, it's huge. I can fit your sister in that thing. And that thing takes a long time to get up to temperature, right? So that is obviously a problem. But something like a seven-liter uh, or you know, it does not take a long time to get up to temperature, especially because it has a very uh thick aluminum sandwich in the bottom of the base that conducts very well.
+
+[34:09] So it's uh it's a good, it's that's a good all-around size. That's what I get. So 3.5 quart, forget about it. The five uh liter, six-liter, uh the five-liter uh pressure cooker, the six-liter stock pot, the seven-liter uh pressure cooker, and the eight-liter family stock pot all have the same eight point seven five uh inch bottom. They're just taller.
+
+[34:30] And I like the taller ones because if you're actually gonna do stock, I like taller, thinner things. The only disadvantage being that it's hard to brown a lot of things at one time. And if you want to do single layer braises, it's not as good, although I don't really think that's that big of a deal, right? So with that one, I'd probably still go with the one I have, this seven-liter uh pressure cooker. Maybe the eight-liter stock pot, because I have cooked sometimes things that are too large for mine.
+
+[34:52] Anywho, um now you go to wider to 9.5 inches on the bottom, and they make a fry pan or uh and a brazer. Uh, I would go for the the brazer of those two, then because you're not gonna need the fry pan handle for that, and the brazer's a little bit taller. And if you like to do traditional braises, it's a little bit wider, so you could get your asebuco going and you can brown it. When I'm browning in mine with the smaller uh bottom, I have to do it in batches. I have to brown all my meat in batches, which is a little bit of a pain in the butt.
+
+[35:18] Right? Also, you're not gonna be able to serve a braise out of it that way, and your braids is gonna get all jumbled up, right? So if you want to do a lot of braising traditional style, you're gonna want to get one of the braising pans and 9.5 inches across. But you could get um one of the 11-inch across guys, like they make an eight-quart called stock, which is I don't know why the hell they call it a stock pot. Because it's short like a brazer, but it holds eight quarts.
+
+[35:40] And that might be a good all-around thing if you're not worried about a hot spot because it's a little bit bigger than most of your burners are gonna be able to handle, but it handles a full eight quartz, so it's it's or eight quarts or eight liters. It's the same size as mine, in terms of it's or a little bigger than the one I have, but it's a lot wider if you tend to do braises. Anyway, and what they didn't used to make that I wish I had now is Coon Recon makes a 12-quart stock pot. That's baller with an 11-inch bottom. That's sick.
+
+[36:03] Anyway, uh, they have a new type called uh a top model. I don't know what the hell that is. I've never used it. It looks like it's still non-venting, but I can't recommend it. Is that enough?
+
+[36:10] You think I got it? That's good. That's good. All right, I hope that helps. Okay.
+
+[36:14] Mike Trem. What was I gonna talk about now? Jersey or jersey in a minute. Jersey in a minute. Let me get my questions done.
+
+[36:19] Mike Tremolet writes in about pausing. Uh and this is all Twitter. It's mashed together from Twitter, so you have to apologize that it's all Twitter mash. Uh techniques for par cooking food and finishing together. Roast turkey, starchy pureees, roast vegetables, steamed vegetables.
+
+[36:32] Uh would like to do mashed potatoes, roast cauliflower, etc. ahead of time and finish it while the turkey rests. But how to do this without losing quality? Soggy roast veg, dry mashed potatoes. Lots of books, lots of books tell me how to cook food.
+
+[36:43] None of them tell me when to pause cooking and how to restart. That's an excellent question, right? Yes. Here's what I would say. Mashed potatoes, what you're gonna want to do.
+
+[36:51] Cook the mashed potatoes ahead of time. Uh add enough cream or butter. By the way, a lot of chefs they don't like adding cream because it adds uh water to it instead of using butter. But I actually prefer the flavor of cream in my mashed potatoes to butter. I don't know why.
+
+[37:02] It's does you a cream or a butter person? Butter. Butter. Anyway, whatever. Wiley agrees with you.
+
+[37:06] I agree with me, but that's whatever. But take your mashed potatoes, uh, and don't, you know, just make sure you do something pleasant. Like use a food mill or a ricer. At home, ricer is the easiest way to do it. You can go to any kitchen shop and get yourself a ricer and you just smash the potatoes through a ricer and it comes out like then it's beautiful.
+
+[37:22] You don't need to do a lot of post things, and you're not going to get gloopy, nasty mashed potatoes. So rice it, mix it carefully with whatever you're going to add, butter, cream, whatever. And then pack them into Ziploc bags, going back to Francois, my beloved Ziploc bags. Pack them into Ziploc bags, exclude the air, and make sure they are thin on the order of like uh less than half an inch. I would say like three eighths, something like that.
+
+[37:42] Like smash them flat, do them in a couple bags. Then do whatever with them. I don't care what you do with them. It doesn't matter to me. It's your mashed potato, right?
+
+[37:49] Then about 20, 30 minutes before, just uh heat up some water. You don't even need to be that accurate. Just get a pot of water friggin' hot, right? And uh pull it off the stove so you don't blast it out. Then throw throw the bags in to heat up.
+
+[38:02] Because you've made them thin, they'll heat up very quickly and you can serve them out. Roast vegetables are a little more difficult because it's about an interior exterior difference of uh things. I would par cook like anglaise, like I would par cook them so that they're actually done in a s in a kind of a steam situation, and then I would hit them very high in an oven for a couple of minutes to finish off if you want that kind of roast butter, but it's not the same. What I'd really, it's not the same, so I don't even know why I'm telling you that, because it's not the same. If you do a sous-vide, if you do a low temperature cook uh in a bag of vegetables, you won't have any added water to them, and you'll get some of that roast flavor because you're not losing any volatiles and stuff.
+
+[38:39] But it's really hard to get roast vegetables to come back to be exactly the same, right? I need more time to think about that rather than just Twitter at it, because I haven't I haven't successfully done that. I usually build around a non-roast. Or what you do is is I just throw the I throw the roast vegetables in with the turkey for the last little bit, pull it out, let the roast vegetables finish while the turkey is coming. The main problem is uh finishing the mashed potatoes and getting those to finish, right?
+
+[39:01] Yes. I I'm I wish I had a better answer for your roast veg, but you know, I only have so many answers in life, I guess. I guess I'm a low quality person. What do you think? That's not true.
+
+[39:09] Yeah, well, I try. I do my best. Oh, thanks, Jack. Anyway. Uh okay.
+
+[39:13] Now listen, I gave a sort of a half uh what's what's the what word I can use? By the way, I told my son Dax that jackass is not a curse because it's an animal, but he won't believe me. Every time I say the word jackass, he's like, ooh, I'm like, Jackass is an animal. I was like, it's rude to call a person a jackass because no one wants to be likened to a jackass. Right.
+
+[39:32] But jackass is not a curse. How do you explain to him that jackass is not a curse? Whereas using it to refer to your behind is a curse. It's very complicated for a seven-year-old. Yeah.
+
+[39:42] Right? Yeah. Anyway, uh what the hell brought me to that? You said you didn't want to answer this half. Half, yeah, half jackassed.
+
+[39:48] Okay. So, and how what does half ass mean anyway? How do you use half of your behind for something? Where does that come from? Okay.
+
+[39:56] All right, Rob Trapause, uh, and I kind of gave a semi-answer to it. He wrote in saying I didn't hear your answer, which is very polite way of saying you gave a crappy answer. Uh the question was when I cook low temperature sous-vide at home, I typically serve all that I make, uh, I typically serve all that I make, or chill sealed bags to rethirm them for a separate meal. Typically, I follow the 72 hour rule uh at five degrees, 41 degrees Fahrenheit storage, FDA time and temp standards for sous-vide in my domestic refrigerator or freeze for longer storage. If I follow the storage FDA storage guidelines, then sear re thermic.
+
+[40:25] Can I safely hold the leftovers for the next day or two under refrigeration? Do this FDA sous vide standards only pertain, and if you look on page 186 of Modernist Cuisine, Volume 1, I like that we now quote it like it's the Bible, 1-186 modernist cuisine. Only pertain to time spent uh in the anaerobic environment, i.e. until the bag is opened. Do these restrictions go away if I use ziplocks instead of vacuum bags?
+
+[40:46] Uh okay, so let me specifically just talk about that rather than the because I'm sure you already made your ducriettes, so I'm gonna answer that specifically. Listen, when you're doing um low temperature work in a bag, the FDA uh guidelines are built around um pasteurization times for bacteria, active bacteria. Uh and beyond pasteurization times for uh active bacteria, the storage is then assuming that you have destroyed the story, the storage guidelines are assuming that you've destroyed an adequate amount of the uh vegetative bacteria that's present, right? So you've destroyed uh the listeria, you destroyed the Acharia coli if you pasteurize it properly. What you're not able to destroy uh in in uh regular cookings are the bacteria that form spores.
+
+[41:30] So these bacteria are basically uh uh bot botulism, uh clostridium botulinum, uh perfringens, clostridium perfyngens, and I swear to God, be serious. Be serious. You believe that? That's the one that's on rice that forms spores that if you leave rice at room temperature, you can get really sick. Yo, be serious.
+
+[41:48] I love that. It's like the best name for it, it's the best name for it for a uh for a pathogen of all time. Anyway, uh so they're worried about spore forming things like this, because you're not destroying those spores. So a lot of the the holding time is worried about spore germination. Now, if you're holding food raw, it's different.
+
+[42:04] Now you're worried about bacterial growth about stuff that's already present. But assuming you've done a pasteurization step, the question is spores. Now, most of those, uh, you know, the the or the two that are most common in meats anyway, uh, are uh anaerobic. Meaning um as soon as you expose those things to air and reheat them again, uh, you have prevented um you've prevented those bacteria from uh growing because they require a lack of oxygen to grow. And so what you're doing is uh taking away that and presumably you've killed the vast, vast, vast majority.
+
+[42:39] You've done a D-level, meaning 10 to the sixth uh reduction, six log reduction of the other pathogens that are present in there. So the other, like you know, the ones that might have been there that uh are aerobic. So the point being that yes, I would assume that you are okay to reheat store for a normal period of time in your fridge and then go again. However, as modernist cuisine uh points out, or as we call it, the new food bible, um uh, you know, do not take my word as legal advice on how to properly preserve your health and safety and welfare, right? Does that make sense?
+
+[43:12] Now, on the way out, before before I go on the way out, because you know I always leave before I forget, we wish before you close out. Yeah, the term half ass, I've I've got it for you. Give it to me. Evolved from half ads. And ads is an axe-like tool with a curved blade that's shaped wood.
+
+[43:26] If you were wealthy, you paid top dollar for a new fireplace, the mantle would be shaped using the ads in the front as well as the back side, which is not visible. But if you weren't that rich and you saved money, you only had the front visible portion shaped. Cheaper job being called a half ads job. Wow. That is crazy.
+
+[43:41] And by the way, I don't just call that uh cheap, I call that smart because you could have spent some time doing something else rather than finishing the back. Although I have to say, when I disassemble things and someone is taking the care to do something on the inside that no one's ever going to see, I give a little secret baller. You know what I mean? Don't you? Anyway, I like that, Jack.
+
+[44:00] See, we gotta get that more out of that I like that. That's that's that's awesome. I appreciate that. Okay. So uh Nastasha and Piper of last week's just not talking to us fame, right?
+
+[44:09] Uh uh I love Piper. Piper's good business. Poor Piper. I love Piper. Piper's great.
+
+[44:14] Anyway, we went down to David Michael Flavor House in New Jersey and uh saw because you know we're working. Well, yeah, Philadelphia, which is kind of like, you know, okay, yeah, okay, it's Philadelphia, it's Pennsylvania. Anyway, a lot of people who work there live in Jersey. Yeah. Anyways.
+
+[44:28] So uh we're working on some sodas at Booker and Dax Equipment Company. So we went down there to test out some flavors and whatnot, and an amazing place, right? Really cool. I have never been in a flavor house before to see how kind of it's done professionally, and it is bananas. I hope everyone someday gets a chance to visit a flavor house.
+
+[44:44] It is an eye-opening thing. Let me tell you one thing that's gonna make you sit before Happy Thanksgiving, first of all. I wish you all good turkey, except for Michael Natkin, who I wish good whatever you're making. Michael, tell us what you're making. I'm interested.
+
+[44:55] I want to know what like the most festive vegetarian Thanksgiving dishes are. Like, like what's the giant baller vegetarian Thanksgiving turkey, not a substitute, because I know Michael, that you're not substituting. I know you don't fall into that trap of making some cruddy thing that acts like a turkey that's not. I want to know something that takes the place of a turkey in a vegetarian Thanksgiving that just kicks some serious behind. So if you hear this before Thanksgiving, please let me know on the Twitter what it is that you do.
+
+[45:23] But anyway, happy Thanksgiving, one and all. And what were we talking about? Flavorhouse. No, but but after that, I was gonna say and I'm gonna tell you about this really cool thing at the Flavor House. Oh my god, you're okay.
+
+[45:34] Listen to this. So, David Michaels is the largest behind McCormick's producer of vanilla in the world. And they have like eight bazillion different vanillas, and when I went and talked to the vanilla exp one one of their many vanilla experts there, uh they have like I met in like in like a period of like an hour and a half to three, four hours, whatever, I met like a good three or four percent of all of the flavor flavorists on on you know in the United States, because they have like a bunch of them there, it's only three or four hundred. It's a really weird, dark art of like craziness. Anyways, so uh like we met like their vanilla guru, and uh and you know, I thought I knew something about vanilla.
+
+[46:10] I mean, I've read a book or two on it, and I was like, I don't know anything about vanilla. You know what I mean, right? You're gonna say it was like amazing. Anywho, so we went we visited uh their vanilla processing place. So listen to this.
+
+[46:22] So they take all of this vanilla and they have barrels of vanilla, and back there there was a crisis in uh Madagascar, when in 2004 or something like that, they said. And uh it got up so expensive that like the drum of uh vanilla that we looked at in 2004 would have been worth like 50 grand to the one bucket, and they have bucket after bucket after bucket, don't break in, they have weapons anyway. So listen. So we're looking at this bucket of chummed vanilla because they chum it all up before they do their uh that means chop, uh and they before they put it in the alcohol, do the extraction. And then after they do the extraction, which is all proprietary, hoo-ha-hoo-ha, they put it in a centrifuge, and what's left is spent vanilla, and we tasted it, and it tastes not like vanilla, it tastes vaguely brown, almost like an olive tapanade, right?
+
+[47:04] Almost like a black olive topony. It was crazy. I was very surprised. Get this. Then are you allowed to say this?
+
+[47:11] Yeah. Anyway, so then check this. So if you buy the vanilla ice cream that has the little dots in it, and you're like, eyo, it's got dots, he's got the real vanilla. So listen, you buy it with the dots. Here's what they do.
+
+[47:22] They take inherently flavorless, flavorless, actual vanilla seeds, the little seeds, and then they take that and they mix it back into the extract that they just made to make it look real. But they're actually theoretically, they're not adding that much, so don't worry about it. But they're accident they're actually dumbing down the flavor a little bit to give you the aesthetic appearance that that somehow it's real when in fact it was already real and they added some extra BS to it to make it look more real. Cooking issues.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[48:08] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwardson Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:58] Cooking issues! Call it live at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. It's Dave Arnold with Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the back of our burden's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, here with Nastasha the Hammer, Lopez, and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing today?
+
+[1:16] Hey. All on two hours sleep. Can you believe that? Two hours sleep. Yeah.
+
+[1:21] Well, that's why we needed a theme song like this one. Yeah, Jack is well, I like the fact that we have uh it's so stupid. Like I go into the crazy mode and then here I am back in normal normal mode. Nor anyway. But we have like uh we have two songs, which is awesome.
+
+[1:33] So we have the break song, and then we have the the the crazy, you know, get me going with no sleep song. We'll take more. Yeah. As listeners, we'll take more. Yeah?
+
+[1:42] I'm s um by the way, Joel, I'm I'm trying to get McGee to call in and and read the Myard stuff, but you know it for Christmas. It's er uh that's gonna be his Christmas present. If I can convince McGee to do that. Who? Joel.
+
+[1:55] Oh, well, whatever. I mean, like, you know, I can give someone a Christmas present regardless of whether they celebrate. It's not like it's not like I'm smacking them in the face. Like a gift is a gift. If someone wants to give, hey, look, anyone out there wants to give me a gift from some other religion, I am glad to accept it.
+
+[2:09] See? Me too. Yeah, right? Mm-hmm. What about you guys?
+
+[2:12] Uh it depends. He's like, no Zoarestrian gifts. Right? Well, what what what gift would you not accept, Jack? Is that Jack or Joe who wouldn't accept?
+
+[2:22] That was me, Jack. And I I don't know. I mean, are there like Scientology holidays? Oh. Yeah.
+
+[2:28] I think I think not. I think not, too. Like, I don't know. Maybe there's Scientology gifts. Uh well, there's there's always one Scientology gift.
+
+[2:37] Dianetics. Okay. Um we have a question in. Uh by the way, seriously, you can call any questions live to 7184972128. That's 784972128.
+
+[2:48] Oh, this weekend we had the the CNN thing went on. I cannot believe that Nastasha managed to not be on that entire half hour program. They never asked me. Uh they didn't ask Piper either, and yet he's on. You know why?
+
+[3:00] Because he didn't hide away from the camera. I did not hide. I was in clear view. Well, that's actually not true. You s rescheduled your flight back to the country to miss the cooking issues episode when they went through a lot of hoops.
+
+[3:13] You're like, yeah, have them come that day. Everything's fine. Oh yeah, I'm not gonna be here. They came the second time though. Yeah, but they'd already done most of the shooting.
+
+[3:21] Look, just people like people, she does not want to be on the camera. She's a crazy person. She's a crazy person. But not just for that reason. Many reasons.
+
+[3:28] Please call in and convince her that next time she should not hide from uh the cameras. But I thought it was good. It was fun. I like it's an expose. Speaking of expose, uh I was very happy with the program.
+
+[3:40] I enjoyed it. Um, which is unusual. I detest watching myself in any any form. But the um so CNN did a blog, and the blog post that they decided to do was on uh good liquid nitrogen. So they did like, I don't know, they put the liquid nitrogen, and then the internet trolls came out of their freaking caves and were typing all sorts of nonsense about liquid nitrogen.
+
+[4:04] So l first of all, it was all about that awful case we talked about you know a couple of weeks ago a month ago now, maybe, right? Where the this like you know, incredibly unfortunate, this 18-year-old uh woman in uh England was served uh liquid nitrogen to drink, which is a horrible and and unconscionable thing for a bartender to do, and she lost her stomach. And it's horrible. Uh completely awful, but also uh would never happen with anyone who's using uh liquid nitrogen properly. But you get all these like freaks on the internet who have no idea what they're talking about, and they just are slamming uh slamming me for using liquid nitrogen, saying things that are patently untrue about liquid nitrogen.
+
+[4:49] Like, for instance, this one person, and this I commented once to set some stuff straight, and then Nasasha was like, Don't comment again, just leave it alone, leave it alone, leave it alone. But here it's my radio show, I get to do what I want. So they this one person says, uh, whose by the way, their actual name is yeah, right. No, I think that's their handle. Oh, I know, I'm kidding.
+
+[5:06] Because any anonymous jerk sitting alone in their underwear can make comments on the internet like they're like they know what's going on. But anyways, so what happened is they they say, well, you know, there's always the possibility for human error, so there's there's no reason to do it. Which is, I mean, the possibility for human error using liquid nitrogen if you use it properly in terms of a of a customer getting hurt that way, like a horrible thing that happened in England, is roughly on the order of saying that if a chef was chopping onions in uh plain view of a customer, that they might trip and throw the knife through the customer's head. And and that if that happened, then uh you know, we should ban the use of knives in kitchens. It's simply ridiculous.
+
+[5:47] Like I cannot state in stronger terms how awful it is what happened in England and how thoroughly, thoroughly punished the person is who did that, and how freaking horrible it is that they that they did that. And and I also cannot emphasize in stronger terms that that is not a reason to ban the use of liquid nitrogen, and that people writing it on the internet simply don't know what they're talking about. And I kept on getting the gimmick crap. The guys, the guys who are against liquid nitrogen, by and large, are throwbacks, it seems, from their writing to like a very old school of thought where it they just think everything's a party trick. They don't, they're not bothering to pay attention.
+
+[6:25] Forget what I'm doing with it, or you know, anyone at the bar, anyone that knows me or is associated with me. If you look around, there are many uh many uses of liquid nitrogen that are they're not uh gimmicks, right? I'm sure there are uses of liquid nitrogen that are gimmicks in the same way that if you go to a benihana, no offense to the Benihana people, but if you go to Benihana, their knife use is a gimmick. Do you know what I'm saying? So, yes, a knife can be used as a gimmick, and liquid nitrogen can be used as a gimmick, and a knife can be used to you know cook, and liquid nitrogen can be used.
+
+[6:55] Uh well, it won't cook because it's cold, but you know what I'm saying, right? Is that enough? Elliot Pappanow tweets, please also ban fire. It's very dangerous. You know, he's right.
+
+[7:05] It is extremely dangerous. I've been burnt several times this year alone. You know, uh, but uh anyway, so that goes into uh uh we have a question um oh I don't have the person oh from Paul uh at American Meltdown. He says, I graduated from FCI back in 07. We didn't get to interact much.
+
+[7:23] I was in the last class of the old four phase uh culinary tech uh paradigm and there was no culinary technology stuff. Uh I had a question about well, we I was there, but I didn't wasn't teaching the the regular blah blah blahs, I guess yet. Anyways. Uh no, I did. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[7:37] Uh I had a question about liquid nitrogen. I own and operate the American Meltdown Food Truck in North Carolina. Uh we serve uh gourmet melts and grilled cheeses. I like grilled cheese. You like grilled cheese sauce?
+
+[7:47] You love, right? That's one of the few things Nastasha actually I can I can legitimately say Nastasha loves herself with grilled cheese. Do you like anything? First time I've heard her say the word love on the show, I think. I know it.
+
+[7:55] I know it. Is it because your mom didn't make grilled cheese that we have? Yeah, she did. Yeah? Do you enjoy things on your grilled cheese or do you like what kind of cheese do you like?
+
+[8:07] Uh cheddar. Well, that's the other love you have, Swiss. What was it? What was the second one? Cheddar.
+
+[8:11] Ch cheddar. It doesn't melt very well. You don't care? Don't care. All right.
+
+[8:16] What do you think about American cheese? No. Don't like it. Don't like it? Don't like it.
+
+[8:21] Uh you're patriotic, David. I'm not. Not patriot. I have nothing to do with patriotism. Do you know where American cheese was invented?
+
+[8:26] In England. Oh. Oh, in Switzerland, maybe. It's it was in Europe, anyway. It was not here.
+
+[8:31] It was invented, actually. No, it was invented by the Swiss. It's been the Swiss Nastasha. You know why? As a fondue.
+
+[8:36] Look it up right now. Because the book, the book which I downloaded somewhere on my computer is Processed Cheese Analogs, but I believe processed cheese was invented by the Swiss, which makes sense because of their love of freaking fondue. But look it up. Anyway, uh back to the question. I had a question about liquid nitrogen.
+
+[8:51] Blah blah blah. Uh I wanted to bring on some liquid nitrogen uh for a play on frozen grilled cheese. I don't know how you would freeze a grilled cheese, though. But anyway, we'll liquid nitrogen. I don't know.
+
+[9:00] I mean, like, but in other words, if you freeze the grilled cheese, it's frozen grilled cheese. I don't understand. But anyway, uh, I've had some difficulty with equipment. I found the place to buy the liquid nitrogen, and the guys will let me carry it off in a styrofoam box. As far as dispensing it, do I need a tank?
+
+[9:12] Uh, where would I get a tank to hold L in? I saw uh some one-liter ones at McQueenLabs.com. In my head, I have a tank with a hose, and I would put something like olive oil into a bowl and then squirt in the liquid nitrogen, and it would get the popcorn like frozen shapes, which is similar to the Dan, you know, Danny Garcia, the famous uh Spanish chef, used to make uh frozen uh olive oil in various ways. But he he actually did it exactly uh in the reverse, right? So he's it or would I pour some ladle some liquid nitrogen into a bowl and then pour the olive oil in?
+
+[9:38] That is what typically you would do. So in fact, I saw Danny Garcia once do the olive oil demo in a styrofoam box. And um when he's doing his stuff when he's when you're freezing olive oil, the trick is is that it breaks up into little uh pieces, uh like almost like couscous. So he, if you sit in the LN long enough, it makes this guy couscous like thing. If you want like kind of foamier, denser things, he used to emulsify different amounts of water in to get different textures.
+
+[10:02] The more water you add, the more it hurts your face, though, because the water hurts a lot when you put it in uh cold frozen like that, whereas the uh olive oil by itself doesn't have as high of a specific heat, so it can't uh actually uh damage you as badly. But anyway, he would put uh olive oil in an ISI canister, shake it up and then foam it into the liquid nitrogen, and the aeration would also make it less damaging on the tongue, provide interesting texture and get those popcorn like things. So that's how Danny Garcia used to do it. And in fact, I did that demo once because we had a whole bunch of liquid nitrogen and people wanted to see it. I'm like, alright, I'm now gonna pretend I'm Nanny Garcia because I hate doing other people's demos.
+
+[10:37] So I literally was like, I'm I am Danny Garcia, but not. Anyway, and so I did like because I had seen him do his demos, so I did uh you know, I did a lot a lot of those. I mean, not as well as he did. I'm not trying to say I was but anyway, I uh I did that. So um okay.
+
+[10:50] Uh so you don't if you're putting it in a styrofoam box, there's not much point in putting it into something. I mean styrofoam box is not so good. You gotta be careful when you have a styrofoam box because uh they can crack, and if they crack, they dump liquid nitrogen everywhere. So you want to make sure that if you do use a styro, it's like like something sturdy like a fish tub, and that you have it in a cardboard with uh duct tape around it so that it doesn't break. Um you can pour it into coffee carafts is the easiest way, uh, because you're not gonna be that uh, you know, you're not gonna be that efficient in storing it this way anyway.
+
+[11:19] Eventually you're gonna want to go get like a 35 uh liter dew or or something like that. Um you you ask, do I need a tank? Will the LN just evaporate quicker without one? Yes, that's the case. It'll just evaporate quicker.
+
+[11:32] And you know, the problem with styrofoam boxes, they also have a fairly large surface area, so unless you keep it capped all the time, you're gonna lose a lot. And when you pull the thing off, you're gonna lose a lot. But if you're getting a cheap price on it, it's an okay way to start out. Just be careful that it can't slosh around because things can slosh out of those containers and then get liquid nitrogen all over everywhere. And if you're not being cautious, especially if you're in a food truck, never let it get in a situation where the liquid nitrogen is above the head of a customer and you're serving down to them with liquid nitrogen because then you could get liquid nitrogen and you could pour it like you know, potentially into their eyes or in inside of a piece of their clothing where it could get trapped and cause uh severe burns.
+
+[12:08] You also want to make sure you don't have large amounts of liquid nitrogen inside of your truck unless your truck is completely ventilated to the outside so that you have no possibility of um what's the word I'm looking for? Asphyxiation. Asphyxiation. Nastasha's like, I don't know. Oh, and it was the British, not Swiss for American cheese.
+
+[12:24] It was British British for processed cheese in general. Look up processed cheese and melting salts in general. That's not American cheese okay well clearly at least American cheese was invented by the Brits but processed cheese in general I believe is invented by the Swiss keep looking so I've got 1911 by Walter Gerber in Switzerland that's wait wait wait that's that's that's processed cheese James L Kraft is the first who applied for a patent for the method in 1916 and then craft was the first to commercial commercially slice them keep them you know sell them sliced in 1950. So in the US in the US in the US in the US yeah yeah yeah uh the Swiss so Nastasha your precious yeah well what do you think American cheese is hello it's processed cheese made with cheddar duh hey by the way just so you know I've said this before on the show but this is what I do with my kids. I give them a prize anyone the first person who calls in I'll send you two dollars if you get this so what is going to be more likely to produce a better emulsified uh uh uh processed cheese product an aged cheese or a non-aged cheese first caller in gets two bucks I don't know how how am I gonna get two bucks paypal PayPal we'll PayPal you two bucks okay um now uh back on the thing uh we are in closed space being inside the truck but there are two huge ventilation hoods a service window and a large back door that can swing open uh I feel that has enough airflow but I could be wrong thanks for your time and response listen uh it could be enough airflow just make sure that there's no possibility that one of your workers is in there and it gets sealed like for instance when you're driving and if you're driving and they have a like a big tub of liquid nitrogen and you get hit it could dump over and then the entire styrocooler of liquid nitrogen is on the floor of your truck and it's sealed, and then you're shafted because you might have gotten knocked out and you can't open the window or something like that.
+
+[14:05] So the it any time you have liquid nitrogen in a vehicle like that, it has to be away from you, secure, and all the windows have to be open, right? That's what that's the rule. That's the rule we Nastasha's like, I don't want to talk to you about it. Well on the show, what are you talking about? There's no one else I can talk to.
+
+[14:14] Please. Okay. Um Tony Tony Harrian writes in from the mixing bar in Brazil. Hey, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joel. Uh Joe.
+
+[14:28] I don't know why I said Joel. Crazy. Because I'm gonna talk about Joel later. Yeah. Uh salute from Brazil once again.
+
+[14:33] This Tuesday I've been invited to speak to a group of bartenders, media and industry people, uh, about the use of salt in drinks in Sao Paulo. They uh I want to go to Sao Paulo. I don't like Portuguese. The language or the people? Yeah.
+
+[14:44] But uh, do you don't like like European Portuguese or Brazilian Portuguese? But see, I like Brazilian Portuguese, but actual Portuguese makes no sense to me. It sounds like Russian. Is that why you like it? It sounds all crazy to me.
+
+[14:55] Like like Portuguese from Portugal sounds all crazy to me. And like Brazilian Portuguese sounds like Portuguese to me. Anyway. Uh, okay. Uh the project is called Mentes Brijantes, Brilhantes, brilliant minds, and is produced by the Brazilian cocktail site, Mixology News, to promote the uh promote the exchange of ideas within our cocktail scene.
+
+[15:14] My presentation is pretty much all set up, but it'll be awesome to include any hint or pointer from the cooking issues team. Uh, I know from the episode you did with Tony Canal that you use uh or Tony C, as they say, Tony C. Do you know that in America when you pronounce the ball players, the dead famous uh Boston Red Sox ballplay's name, that they literally even like I was talking to my 93-year-old uh my stepfather's father, my stepgrandfather, whatever, you know, who's Italian, Adonisio, right? From Boston, and it sealed anyway. So he he even says canigliaro.
+
+[15:44] Canigliaro. That's what the Bostonites called him anyway. Whatever. Simon's gonna start calling uh Tony Tony Canigliaro. What do you think?
+
+[15:50] I like it. You like that? Mm-hmm. Tony Canigliaro. Anyway, that you use salt in a few drinks at Booker and Dax.
+
+[15:55] In fact, we use them in most drinks in Booker and Dax. Anything that has um any form of fruit in it, really, coffee, chocolate, anything like that has uh uh salt in it. Sub threshold, sub threshold. Uh, but would love to hear more of your experiences with it. I'm going to use the drink uh the search for delicious to exemplify how salt can help bitterness in drinks.
+
+[16:13] Participants will get a glass containing uh china, put a mes, uh, and orange bitters, and we'll gradually add lemon juice and salt tincture. The salt tincture is gonna be at 100 mils of uh water and 15 grams of salt, which is roughly what we do, right? Uh to see how it changes over time, um, tasting the drink at each step. Uh I know it's a bold cocktail, uh, but it's pretty impressive. How a few drops of salt and ass, it can really change this drink.
+
+[16:35] The workshop is based on the article I wrote for Mixology News a while ago. Of course, it's in Portuguese, so it's useless to me because and I I hate Google Translator. I'm sorry. Sorry, Tony, I can't stand the Google Translate. Do you like Google Translate?
+
+[16:44] It's awful. It's always wrong. Always wrong. Um any pointers, ideas about the use of salt in drinks and its effects. Appreciate it.
+
+[16:51] Uh, I'm sure to mention a lot about you guys in the seminar. Cheers, Tony. Okay, so first of all, um, I was not aware of this word, but here's my favorite new title in the world. Maybe this is what you should become instead of uh error apparent. Maybe you should be chemosensory psychophysicists.
+
+[17:07] I think that's a real It's real. Yeah, I know, but uh people earn that. You think? Yes. You think that's like an earned title?
+
+[17:15] You can't just like it's like it's like everyone says, I'm an architect. Did you go to architecture school? Did you pass the test? You know what I mean? It's like so you think it's like that?
+
+[17:21] You have to actually pass a test? I do to be a chemosensory psychophysicist. It's got the word psycho in it. Yeah. Well, you can stick with that.
+
+[17:29] Psychophysicists. Like, what if it's just psychophysicist and not chemosensory psychophysicists? Can you be that? Sure. Okay.
+
+[17:35] Uh anyway, so like very, very clearly, the uh people who are the top of their game on this are uh P. A. Breslin and uh G.K. Beauchamp. And they're they work for Monell out of Philadelphia, and they've written all of the good articles on salt and bitterness.
+
+[17:50] And some of the good ones you might want to look at, but a lot of their like classic work was done in the late 90s. And so you might want to look up salt enhances flavor by suppressing bitterness. And uh another good one is salt taste, which is a chapter in a book. That one came out in uh 2008, and that's uh a good it's good because it's a um it's what's it called? It's a it's a a review, a review section.
+
+[18:16] Anyway, so the interesting thing is, and uh by the way, while I was researching this to get some more uh information, I learned some uh extremely interesting things. So everybody knows that um I guess everybody doesn't know this. Uh uh if you present something that smells sweet with with something, that uh it makes everything taste uh sweeter. So, like in other words, if I give you banana aroma and sugar, it tastes sweeter than if I just gave you banana aroma alone. Does that make sense?
+
+[18:45] And if I add uh certain things, but if if I ask you to evaluate and then things have different synergies. So typically if you add salt, salt masks bitterness. So it like if you add salt to it, bitterness level is reduced. Typically, if you but what's crazy is if I ask you to rate it there's very recent scholarship that that when you just have someone rate a single thing like sweetness, they could all make sense. But that if you actually say, for instance, in sweet, if you're gonna do a sour and salt together, if you ask someone to rate the wow, someone just tossed a pizza on someone's chest, it was awesome.
+
+[19:18] Sweet. You see that? Yeah. It's like we we watched the the kind of like dining room here, and there was a there was a pizza chest toss. Anyway.
+
+[19:24] Grease on cashmere. Yeah, grease on cashmere. That's a good band. Anyone out there, you're welcome. Grease on cashmere.
+
+[19:30] That sounds like a lot of like remember that band Lubricated Goat? No. Yeah. Someone look up whether see see see whose album was circus peanut. I think it might have been lubricated goat.
+
+[19:44] Um great bad names, family show. Okay. So uh back to what I was saying. So but if you actually tell someone, okay, now rate salt and and and sour separately, they can. They can rate it.
+
+[19:56] But anyway, in general, salt is extremely complicated. So the way so the way the way it affects your taste. So the way it affects your taste is uh is very dependent on concentration. So when you add salt, for instance, like some people add salt to coffee, when you're adding salt to things uh uh in low concentrations, you s so okay, look I get so I get so like all over myself. My head's going at like a million miles a minute that I can't I gotta slow down, slow down, slow down the head.
+
+[20:22] Okay. If you take uh bitter and a bitter component and let's say a sweet component and you have them together, the in a drink, the bitter component and the sweet component will mutually suppress each other. Does that make sense? Right? So it'll taste both less sweet and less bitter.
+
+[20:42] But if you add salt to that, right, even fairly small amounts of salt to that mixture, what ends up happening is uh the salt suppresses the bitterness, but also undoes the uh undoes the suppression that the bitterness did to the sweetness. So it tastes even sweeter. So it tastes like the bitterness is going down and the sweetness is going up. Even though actually what's happening is you're unmasking the the you're unmasking the bitters no longer masking of the sweetness. And this is like really super interesting work that like Beauchamp and Breslin did uh out of Monell.
+
+[21:19] And like everyone should, everyone should kind of kind of read that. But just in um in very kind of uh round terms, in the article salt enhances the flavor by suppressing bitterness. Uh he says our data shows that in addition to adding desired saltiness to food, salt potentiate flavor through the selective suppression of bitterness and perhaps other undesirable flavors, and the release from suppression of palatable flavors such as sweetness. The desire for NACL and other salts and foods as diverse as often bitter vegetables, oily foods, and meats may be due in part to their ability to suppress unpleasant flavors. This may explain why it is difficult to make low sodium foods acceptable.
+
+[21:57] That's a quote from that article. Another interesting thing that uh Beauchamp in his uh in his what's it what's that thing called? A review article. Uh gives a really interesting example that you can smack your friends across the face with subhold uh subthreshold salt, right? And I've said this a million times on the air, but I've never said it so succinctly, and that's why these are the smart guys.
+
+[22:15] Uh this is in salt taste. So Nastasha, does bread taste like the average loaf of bread? Does it taste salty? No. No, it doesn't, right?
+
+[22:24] So I would call that subthreshold salt, right? Uh and so but when you get Tuscan bread, it what? Tastes good. It sucks. Everyone knows it sucks.
+
+[22:35] You're just being ornery. Suskin bread has no salt and it sucks. And so that shows you kind of the incredible rounding effect that salt can have on something, even though it's below uh threshold. And that in fact is the exactly thing what Beauchamp says. Uh he says, I think it's a he, I don't know, maybe woman.
+
+[22:51] She, he, I don't know. Um that consider again bread and bread products. The salt in these make up the single largest source of sodium consumed in the U.S. diet. I did not know that.
+
+[23:01] Uh I did not know that. Yet we typically do not perceive bread as salty. Bread without salt tastes insipid or bad, like Tuscan bread does. Uh that's emphasis is mine. Uh when salt is added, the flavors enhanced without making the bread taste salty.
+
+[23:14] Thus, salt when added to food must have functions other than adding saltiness, and then goes on to explain uh what they are. Wow. Wow. What? Those guys are necessary to make it.
+
+[23:25] They can't see. You gotta say what's going on if you're gonna make a couple. Well, first of all, it's raining cats and dogs here. It's like the day you'd never need sunglasses in in Bushwick, and uh two of the three of the group are wearing sunglasses. Yeah, and like, you know, major, like, you know, leaning back, and then you know, I had to actually use this interesting, I had to use the women's bathroom today before the show.
+
+[23:48] Uh, and by the way, the Robert's people apparently love women a lot more than they love men because your bathroom is you've been to the men's bathroom? Yeah, men's bathroom, hellhole. But not just because it's filthy, because men are filthy, just it's like laid out like I don't care. I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[24:03] So your you know, your legs are smashing into this thing. I don't care. You know? So the so the door's gonna clock you in the head. If you know, who cares?
+
+[24:10] You're a dude. You know what I mean? The women's like, you know, you could turn around, you know, you can wash your hands, the spigot's not like, you know, like half a millimeter off of the what? What? But anyway, so the reason I went into the women's bathroom, I was given specific okay because apparently uh uh a couple had gone in there and they were finishing up last night's festivities.
+
+[24:31] Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not it's not that they're like that in the morning, it's still nighttime for them. Uh we'll see when Indy Jesus isn't around all hell breaks.
+
+[24:41] Ha ha ha ha! Boom. Oh, that's a good one. No, geez, that's good. That's good business.
+
+[24:50] All right. And two, uh, just to break it down the line for you. For example, this is a quote again from uh from these guys. For for example, subthreshold salt levels increase perceived sweetness and decrease perceived acidity. Whereas subthreshold sugar concentrations make a food taste less salty than it actually is.
+
+[25:06] And in very weak concentrations, salt might actually enhance the flavor of acids because it's not linear. It changes whether it's subthraled, super threshold, and how much. So the answer is there is no answer. You like that? I like that.
+
+[25:18] Nastasha loves uh there is no answer. Oh, you want to go to our first commercial break? Let's do it. Is that for me? Yeah.
+
+[25:26] Cooking issues. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today.
+
+[26:32] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive hearing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork.
+
+[26:57] Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.suryfarms.com. Ooh, reverb. Uh we have a caller, yeah. Yeah, caller, you're on.
+
+[27:15] Caller on the air. Yeah, hey, Dave. Mark Jensen here down in Lexington, Kentucky. Nice. Hey, man, I've been listening to you guys, Nastasia, Jack, Joe.
+
+[27:25] It's been a dream to let uh get all this information over the radio. It's fantastic. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. What do you got for us?
+
+[27:32] All right, this is apropos, because I'm also a food truck owner, and this also can kind of uh has something to do with Portuguese cooking. So here we go. I'm doing a Macau style pork chop bun tomorrow for a gig. And of course that has some kind of Portuguese influence and Chinese influence. But my big question is, I'm gonna coat this in a starch and then deep fry it after I marinate the pork chop bun after Marinate the Pork Chop.
+
+[27:59] On starches, what do you think lends to a more crispy crust if I'm just really powder coating it? I'm not gonna do a batter. Yeah, I mean you know, it's uh everyone has their own feeling. First of all, you're gonna you said you're gonna souve it and then like bring it they're gonna be thin enough that you're just gonna fry from cold after they're after their uh low temp. Is that what you said you were gonna do?
+
+[28:21] Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Um I mean, I think there's a couple of things you're gonna look. Everyone has their own view about uh kind of what's going on.
+
+[28:28] But the issue with any kind of skim coat is that you're you're you're unless it's dry, it's hard to get like a real crunchy surface on it unless you know I I need to do more research on it. I've I learned here at Roberta's they do uh uh chicken that's a variant of a kind of a well-known restaurant that was closed at the time but is open again called Pies and Thighs, and they literally take it out of their brine, throw it into flour, and then fry it. So apparently, like everything I learned, because when I learned it was you know, you'd make a pellicle, uh, you know, you dry it real real so to get adhesion, and then you do uh flour liquid flour fry, which is not what you're looking to do. But these guys go directly into the the starch from wet. Were you gonna go into the starch from wet or no?
+
+[29:14] Uh I was thinking about patting it dry at least. Yeah. Right. All right. Uh but but not a multiple coat.
+
+[29:19] I'm keeping it thin. Uh and I was leaning toward uh a corn flour, uh keeping it in the kind of Chinese tradition, but uh that corn exactly is is old world, but right. I mean, you know, I've done I've done uh rice starch batters and they're they're you know they have that a certain flavor, and in fact some people even if would put uh you know, but you you can't in your application, but they they put some uh uh you know cowl in there, some some basic stuff in there to to alter it or or baking soda even. But you know, Nils uh Norrin always used to use uh water chestnut uh flour. And he swore by water chestnut flour.
+
+[29:58] Uh now not chestnut flour. The the storeroom used to make that mistake all the time. Water chestnut flour. And it was it was good, but that was what he always used to swear by. Uh, you know, and I don't know which one of the countries over there that he was working in where he picked it up.
+
+[30:12] I don't know whether he picked that up in China, I don't know if he picked it up in Singapore, I don't know where he picked it up. But that was that was his go-to for when we when we used to do the whole uh fish, the whole striped bass, and he wanted and we would pull it out, we would only let it you know dry off for a second. He would always dust it in um water chestnut flour. And I have to admit, it was better in my rem in my memory than when we just used you know plain uh wheat flour or any of the other kind of uh normal normal starches. You might want to look at a modified starch like crisp coat uh or something like that, and it's not gonna be too expensive in the um in the quantities that you're using, probably, at least you know, unless you're gonna do it forever.
+
+[30:50] I think you can get that stuff from modernist pantry. Uh, but you know, that stuff it you know, when it's designed to form a kind of a moisture barrier so that it uh you know crisp coat, hence its name crisp coat, but it could be added also to other starches, so you don't need to use exclusively that. In fact, in industrial usage, they use it only at around I think around 10% usage ratio versus other starch, but it definitely is built to increase uh uh adhesion and crispness in the uh in the in the coating. So you might want to look into something like that. Interesting.
+
+[31:18] Do you think that uh crisp coat is something that is put into say wandra? Wondra, uh, you know, I've also never done a lot of testing with frying with wonder wondra is is just like uh it's it's uh agglomerated so that it dissolves uh you know uh easily uh and there are some people who swear by wandra coatings in their in their frying, but uh I used it only once or twice in tests, and I you know my feeling was that it had a weird taste but it could have been something else I I really didn't give it enough of a test to to say that I love it or or I don't and for some reason I never got in the habit of keeping Wondra around for gravies because I you know I just feel like it's not necessarily and by the way I'm not a like an it needs to be necessary kind of a guy it's just I just never bothered it never bothered becoming a part of my my pantry but there are people who swear by it have you ever tried have you ever tried it or do you like it? Hello I'm still here me no I'm not a wonder guy either uh it's just that's something that's down here in the south more uh and I was wondering since you meant mentioned crisp coat that maybe that was part of its uh profile yeah no no it's it's just uh I mean like in other words like what they do to certain starches if you look up the natural national starch which is a starch company that I like to go to a lot uh they you know they have a lot of agglomerated starch products for instance like i wondra is the is the starch equivalent of ultra spurse versus ultra text so you know it's prehydrated um the all well those are prehydrated ultra spurts and ultra text I don't really know how wondra's done but the one's agglomerated so that it dissolves easily and doesn't clump up and the other one's a pain in the butt. Mm-hmm gotcha. Well I may check into that water chestnut flour and we've got some good Asian markets here and I might be able to source that.
+
+[33:09] Yeah and I'm I'm I'm just doing it off the top of my head so you should uh when you do some research on it let us know what happened. Send us a tweet or something. Excellent. I shall, man. Thank you, everybody.
+
+[33:18] I appreciate it. Alrighty, good luck. Why is my iPad shut down? It's crazy. I hate that.
+
+[33:24] Okay. Oh, by the way, we got a question we have uh Jack, we're okay over there we got another caller we got another caller. Caller, you're on the air. Uh, yeah, Dave. Uh, a couple questions about pressure cooker stock and then one about sweet potato fries, if I'm not taking up too much time.
+
+[33:37] Now it's ghost, do it. Um, okay, so when I make pressure cooker stock, which you got me started on and I'm having outstanding results with. Okay, if if I just don't open the lid on a coon recone do it during after the last extraction, however many I'm doing, is it sealed enough to just be canned and like room temperature stable for a day or two? All right, that is an excellent question. Uh excellent, excellent question.
+
+[34:07] And um okay, so if you were to if you were to uh when you bring it up to pressure, like just do a couple of ch ch vent to get all the extra air out, and you've done it a couple of times, I I would say I would I would be okay with it. I've not not done the studies because if you look at actual pressure canning, um, they're very, very clear that you need to purge the entire thing from with air and then uh have it be full steam before you start your timing on it for being canned. But I think the reason they're doing that is because they're they're cooking it for a bare minimum amount of time and they don't want air trapped in next to the food particle, which is going to slow heat transmission and therefore gonna slow the rate of cooking. I think that if you're doing a stock for long enough that it's probably not an issue, and at the outside and all the air and everything that's in that head space are uh are going to get fully um you know fully you know pressure cooked. Um now i if you're gonna reheat the stock, remember the stock is not uh like it's not really cannibal straight I mean i it is I mean if you if you if you do it long enough if you follow the procedures it should be long story short I don't know whether I can feasibly recommend it to you but I do it.
+
+[35:25] So it's it's not FDA approved but should probably work. Yeah, yeah I mean I actually do that 'cause like a lot of times you know what'll happen is and and you know the like Harold McGee and Ruleman got into like a little bit of a thing about ruhlman saying he just leaves regular stocks out on and then just reheats them which is what everyone used to do in the old days. You know, they'd keep a soup going for a whole week. And I did that during the blackout here uh when we had Hurricane Sandy but um but you know that the uh me you know many times I will have the pressure cooker going and I don't want to you know it's late at n it's late at night I want to go to bed. I've made dinner and now I'm making a stock out with the bones that I had left over from the prep out at dinner and I'll leave it overnight and then put it in the fridge in the morning and I don't really feel bad about it.
+
+[36:08] Uh yeah because I I'm uh well hey I want to do exactly what you just described and also on Thanksgiving I mean you know I'm just running out of space for everything and if I could just run the last pressure cooker with the turkey stock and set it in the garage and forget about it until I need it again I mean that's that's just very helpful. Yeah I would not leave it forever. It's I wouldn't consider it 100% yeah I'm talking twenty four forty eight hours max just enough to get you know get it done and out of the way if I'm getting ready for a a a big family deal. Yeah and I'd say reheat it too. Oh oh yeah well uh reheating is pretty much the same with anything I would do with it would be going in something hot.
+
+[36:43] Like I I make grape gravy with a fairly dark uh butter and flour boo and you know that when the stock hits that gravy, it's uh when the stock hits that root it's about three hundred and fifty degrees or something ridiculous. Right, right, right. A and and and and and then you boil it from there. So I mean so so so reheating is definitively part of the program. Yeah, I mean I mean most things that are gonna develop would be heat labile anyway if you're gonna you're gonna reheat them.
+
+[37:09] I mean again, like I just feel very hesitant to say it's okay on the air and yet I do do it. Okay, well that's that's sometimes maybe it's as good as you get. Yeah, yeah. And well you got a second question you said? Uh second second stock question.
+
+[37:23] I've been run doing some double and even one triple extraction, which just came out fantastic. Um based on the method you described a month a month or two ago where you you know, just keep pulling, you know, you you run the pressure cooker, uh let the pressure come down, take one batch of bones out, put the next batch of bones in and run it again without ever cooling it off. Right. Um how many times can you do that before something weird happens? Jeez, I know I don't know.
+
+[37:50] I've never done more than three. Um but I figure there's gotta be a a diminishing marginal return. I think, you know, it's been years since I it's been years since I've done side by sides on that, uh or like or kept a little back and tasted it, but I bet you that you're not getting much after about about th two or three. Three uh three three on chicken bones, probably three. Uh but mean it really makes a fantastic stock, doesn't it?
+
+[38:14] I mean that triple stock is crazy. I made I did a triple extraction um on some beef bones for food here a while back and it was just amazing. Yeah, I mean that's r that it's like you know, people no one makes it anymore because you know, if you were actually gonna do it it's it's cr if A it's would be expensive in a restaurant setting, and B, it would take forever if you were doing it in in kind of a standard way, but you can do it so quick and just the depth of flavor on that stuff's nuts, right? Oh, it's I mean it's just it's just unbelievable. And also it's ad advantageous for me that the stronger I can make it, I can make soup and dilute and dilute it back out a little bit so it it it improves my storage efficiency since my freezer is permanently stuffed.
+
+[38:52] Yeah, right. I mean, I got that technique from uh James uh Peterson. Uh I forget which one of you know, he was, you know, one of my favorite cookbook writers back in the in the day. I guess he's still writing, but uh, you know, I think that's where I that's where I picked that one up like a long time ago. The the not from the pressure cooker, but just the idea of a triple stock in general, uh as opposed to as opposed to doing a lot of reductions, because he was one of the early people that I can remember saying that uh you know, he preferred uh, you know, th three like more heavy duty uh bone to water ratios rather than uh rather than you know making a weak stock and reducing it, which is what most people do, and I think it's not as good.
+
+[39:31] And you know, and he kind of railed against that uh, you know, a long time ago, and and I I kind of took that to heart. I think most people use too much water in their stocks, period. Well, when you well, when you're trying to make a living selling it, it's just a different scenario. I mean, I I don't really care whether my batch of stock costs twelve dollars or fourteen, but I mean if if you're in business, that can be if it's been making money and losing it. I think it's exactly right.
+
+[39:53] I think it's and but the funny thing is when people at people at home who can afford to do it that way, like they're emulating the restaurant practice, not necessarily best practice, you know. Well, it's just it it that's just because it's just the most common idea out there, but you've you certainly helped me out on it a bunch. Oh, well, thanks very much. Um and then completely different question. Um I absolutely love sweet potato fries.
+
+[40:19] My wife doesn't like the texture I get, and that they're just a little too limp. This is there some little magic powder from Modernist pantry that would at least help that problem. You know, I've never uh I've never had the luck on the surface of the sweet potato. Uh, you're talking about the surface or the interior? I've never had luck on the surface.
+
+[40:38] I've gotten the interior nice, but I've never had the luck on the surface. Well, I would I I I would try anything that even might get my wife to eat them because they're about a hundred times better for you than regular French fries in terms of vitamins, if not calories. Well, I you know, the you you could go the only way I've ever done it where I thought it was like really good, I cheated and I battered them. Okay. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:00] And then if you do like a like a light batter on them, you can get them crunchy as all get out and then have the sweet potato on the inside. So you don't so you're doing like egg white and cornstarch? Uh I know I didn't do I did uh I you know, I last time I did it, I did it in weight, like everyone's gonna hate me now. I did it in two thick of battery. Usually I only do one kind of batter, so and I'm not a fan of like really like kind of light stuff most of the time.
+
+[41:24] So I do what I do for fried chicken, which is like a flour-based, like, you know, pretty hardcore, crunchy uh flour and buttermilk. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh but, you know, I'm not saying you should do that. I'm just saying that, you know, that's that's what I do.
+
+[41:38] But some sort of whatever your favorite crispy coating is. I'm not a fan. I'm again I'm gonna get I'm gonna get nuked on this. I'm not a fan of tempura batters. I think that I've had what is supposed to be very good tempura that other people say was good, and to me, it's not as I understand that everyone loves it.
+
+[41:54] It's just not what I love. Do you know what I mean? Uh yeah, I mean you know, sometimes you just like something or don't. That's right. I mean, I I prefer a harder, uh harder uh texture, and I think tempura also goes off too quickly, especially on something high moisture like a sweet potato fry.
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+[42:09] Listen, one of the problems with sweet potato fries is is i i it's virtually impossible with that high sugar content to get that crunchy kind of coating because you're not lacquering it. Like when people make sweet French fries that are like like shatter on the outside, sometimes they're sweet and they but they're almost like lacquered from the outside. But it's it's so hard because of the way moisture absorption goes into the crust to get that crust to stay normal on just a sweet potato fry. I would love to hear somebody else's technique of doing it, but I bet you could do it with just uh you know a fairly good uh starch dusting, like maybe Chris Coat or something like that without going full batter. All right, Scott uh Chris Coat, it's called.
+
+[42:43] Yeah, crisp coat. You could give that a try. I mean, hopefully someone will tweet me into the uh my Twitter account and say what they do to make their uh sweet potato fries crunchy. But I'm not looking a lot of people out there who like sweet potato fries, they like them even though they're not crunchy, but it sounds like your you know your wife wants them crunchy, right? Well, yeah, yeah, she's just she's just very specific about texture of a lot of things, and sweet potato fries just don't work for her.
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+[43:07] Yeah, yeah. At least I haven't I'm having trouble making one that works for her. Yeah, I'm sure you'll get it. I mean, like just meaning like, yeah, I mean, I I like 'em, but uh you know, I fry them hard just the same way that I do deep fried okra, which is pretty hard crust. So, you know, but you have to like that sort of thing.
+
+[43:21] Oh, I mean, I I dislike fried food, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, fried fried frying is a good way of cooking. That's the way it should be. Oh.
+
+[43:29] But anyway. Uh but yeah, those are those are my three for the day. All right, well, listen, tweet us in and uh let us know how it worked out, alrighty? Thank you very much. All right, thanks.
+
+[43:38] Uh Ken uh Kenningberg wrote in uh basically calling us uh calling not not you because cut me, Wussy said, Hi Nastasha Dave, enjoyed the Thanksgiving show. Uh Dave is cutting corny's corners with his turkey, it seems to me. If uh mom and stepdad are docs, then Dave has access to equipment. My suggestion boning the turkey laparoscopically. Uh like like I hate like uh they don't let me my mom wouldn't even give me a prescription for quinine to make drinks, so I have to pay like retail price for my quinine sulfate.
+
+[44:05] So, you know, it's they don't they don't steal stuff. They're too honest, these guys. Anyway, uh I was in New York City and planned to have a drink at Booker and Dax uh and be an audience at one of your show, but instead found myself holed up in Park Slope for the duration of Hurricane Sandy. Another time. Happy Thanksgiving, Kang Ingber.
+
+[44:18] Uh so by the way, the turkey was delicious, delicious. Did I talk about this already? Have we already had a show since Thanksgiving? Turkey was really good. Uh it was, I think the best no-tech turkey I've ever done.
+
+[44:30] But and and anyone can do it. So, like to recap what I did, uh took the turkey, it was a 23-pound turkey. I inside out boned it. So I ripped all of the uh I ripped all the bones out from inside without cutting the skin in any way. Uh then uh I had my mom make oh, and then I brined it.
+
+[44:46] Now, one of the advantages of boning it before you brine it is that you can fold the turkey up into a small little package and put it even a 23-pound per uh turkey in a fairly small amount of brine. So I put that in a brine uh for a couple of hours, you know. My typical brine, which is uh no measurement, it's make it taste salty like the ocean, and then add enough sugar until you can just barely taste the sweetness. Uh uh my mom started making the stuffing. She put the stuffing into the oven, covered so it wouldn't lose its moisture.
+
+[45:12] We pull uh pulled the turkey out after a little bit, let it dry, form a pellicle on the skin so that it was nice and tacky, you know, got the inside all rinsed out. And remember, when I inside out boned it, what I took out all of the internal bones and I took out the thigh bone on both sides. I left the the last arm bone in and I left the wing joint or last leg bone in, rather, uh, the drumstick bone, and I left the wing bones in for a little bit of structure. Uh, then I took the stuffing out uh when it was like scalding hot, like you know, of the full oven temperature, and then jammed the first thing I jammed was I jammed it into the thigh so it started cooking the thighs, right? Uh and now we're cooking from the inside out, and then jammed it in, made it look like a turkey again.
+
+[45:54] Uh, and now the advantage of the hot stuffing is I'm not gonna poison anyone, and it's gonna speed the cooking and it's gonna cook the parts that I boned out, like the thigh very quickly in the same fashion that it would the other breast meat because it's getting hot stuff in contact where you wouldn't normally get it right away. Threw the whole thing into a 450-degree oven, I think, or 400 or something, for like an hour and a half, two hours. Well, uh butter and salt on the thing. Thing was good turkey. Good turkey.
+
+[46:17] Anyway, so Ken, even though I was cutting uh corners, uh, it was uh good turkey. Uh and I think I might do it again that way. It's so much easier than the than the aluminum uh than the aluminum skeleton. Although Nastasha likes to see me. And more traditional.
+
+[46:33] Yeah, well, kinda, yeah, I guess it is more traditional. I guess anything's more traditional than what I was doing. And you all the stuffing has that awesome flavor from being in the turkey. And well, all inside out boning also has the advantage, which everyone should take advantage of, of now you have all the bones, which while it's while it's uh what's the word I'm looking for? Brining and cooking, you can make a turkey stock right away.
+
+[46:53] So then you can get your gravy base done, and then you can take and deglaze the uh pan that the turkey comes in. Remember, like everyone, I hate I hate it when I see a turkey in a roasting pan and the sides of the pan are coming up over the side of the turkey, and I know that the underside of that turkey is that like nasty blonde, like flabby blah. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? Yes. Do you hate that?
+
+[47:16] I do. I lift lift your turkey up, people. Lift up, be proud of your turkey. Lift it above the the rim of the pan. Anyway, uh, and so we got the gravy, and the gravy was done, good, bueno, bueno.
+
+[47:27] So it's uh it's all around uh a good uh a good a good thing. It's all good. Um so uh um on pressure cookers again. Uh Tom Fisher wrote in and said, Hope you enjoyed your Thanksgivings. I'm looking into getting a Coon Recon pressure cooker and was surprised at the number of sizes available and the small difference in price.
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+[47:42] Uh is there any reason not to just buy the eight and a half quart stock pop but instead go with the smaller units. We went over that last week. Uh, you know, a similar thing. I don't I don't think it was Tom, though. Uh no, just get the eight and a half quart.
+
+[47:52] It's good. Uh see how you like that, Stas for a short freaking answer. You like that? You're still going on though. What do you mean?
+
+[47:59] What do you mean? Yeah, of course I'm still talking. What? Go to the next question. Okay.
+
+[48:04] Uh okay, Marty from Eagle Rock writes in, Dave et al. First, I think Katamaro Tempuro, which is like an ongoing thing we're talking about, the thing that solidifies oil uh in Japan. Uh Ketamara Temputo is uh I don't know how you actually pronounce it. Is derived from castor oil. I think that's how you pronounce it though, because it's like temputo or like tempura.
+
+[48:20] Anyway, uh at least that's what the ingredients page from S. C. Johnson's translates to. Uh and then there's the Thai Castor Oil Group whose primary product is cooking oil solidifier. The internet does not lie.
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+[48:30] Um I've been looking up uh castor oil and I'm trying to figure out what the heck is in this stuff. Uh and I got another person saying castor oil in on my Twitter account. Uh I think it was uh Clef's. Uh anyway, so the um the thing is I still can't figure out what the hell it is. So if you take castor oil, uh it's like semi food gray, but tastes bad.
+
+[48:51] It comes from the castor plant, which if you don't process it right can poison you with ricin, which is like a toxin anyway. But the uh if you hydrogenate it, it becomes a uh car um castor wax, and castor wax has a very high melting point, and I think that it you can use it's a castor wax that's a solidifier for the oil because you do it in hot and then when it sets, it sets solid. It's used to harden um uh underarm deodorant yeah so it's like hard like a like a carnual wax but I can't really figure out what's going on but anyway uh Marty's uh second question is are there any well is first question second comment are there any consumer level reusable products out there for low temperature cooking whenever I cook stuff I always end up with a pile of plastic freezer bags I'd love to experiment more but my inner hippie keeps chastising me so I don't you know this is really an issue there are some bags out there um and you can reuse them but it's just so gross that no one does it you know what I mean it's just it's just nasty uh I you know I'd like to say that there's some sort of like you know paper like on papyotte thing that you could do uh but I just don't know that it's the case and like they the bags just tend to degrade over time. I haven't used any of the thicker uh there there are a couple people out there who are making very thick bags that are the equivalent of uh you remember those Nastash remember those pencil cases you get when you're a kid those like yeah they're made that were made out of vinyl these aren't made out of vinyl because that's gross but I I haven't had had time to really really look into them but it's it's really something I'd like to put out to anyone who's listening to the show to think about maybe some alternative like that that doesn't require a constant source of new bags. I mean obviously there is cooking in in broth and cooking in stock low temperature by using uh the the actual circulator to circulate the products there's cooking in jars but it's just not it's not the same you could notice there's lots of things you can do but it's just not the exact same thing.
+
+[50:39] Like you can pack a jar 100% full with product screw it down and throw it into a bath and it'll work but it's not the same, it's just not the same as doing it in in a bag. You know what I mean? I I don't know of a good solution, but I would love to hear uh anyone's uh good solution. By the way, uh castor bean oil, hydrogenate castor oil not only used a solidify, but another castor uh oil product. Zinc uh ricinulate is the is this is the anti stink in uh antiperspirants.
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+[51:08] Oh I don't know why it absorbs uh it absorbs the stink, but apparently apparently it does. Um, are we gonna get kicked off the air so now? Oh my god, and I have so many questions. I have not gotten to. Uh Charlie Chang, I know I have some questions on Twitter.
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+[51:23] I'm gonna have to get those next time, I guess. Uh Joel, uh, did we did not get a text back from McGee, right? Uh let me check. See if we got a text back from Harold. If we got a text back from Harold, then uh we'll run an extra 30 seconds or something.
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+[51:36] Do we get one? Anyway. Um I also have a question that I'd like to spend more time on from Stan Below, so we'll get that next time, or maybe get it on uh the Twitter uh all about uh different kind of gelling compounds and and uh interested in making vegetarian gummy bears using gel and there actually is a brand new patent on that. We'll have to get into that next time. Uh one thing I will shout out, I was you know, I'm constantly amazed at the amazing information that's available on the FAO's website, which is the Food and Agricultural Organization of the UN.
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+[52:07] And they have so many crazy publications out there on like how to grow shrimp in Thailand. Like this is crazy. You can go on there and I I just I spent probably I don't know, stupidly, probably spent two and a half hours last night when I should have been sleeping reading like the FAO's documents on seaweed production. It's not even that it's like super scintillating, you know, it's not like anyone else here would like be like, oh boom, it's awesome. But I like I can't help free information like that.
+
+[52:33] You know what I mean? I know, dude. Isn't that weird? Anyway, uh, so we did not get it in, right? Nope, no answer.
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+[52:40] Yeah, no answer from the McGee. All right, he's sleeping. I know. The poor guy's sleeping, he's in uh, what's it called? He's in uh the California.
+
+[52:47] Uh so uh Joel wrote in and said, uh just listen to the podcast. You made my uh effing holiday. Thanks for playing my song. Ever since I picked up a copy of On Food and Cooking nine years ago, I become obsessed with the reasoning for everything I do in the kitchen. As a cook, I would uh tick off my chefs because I'd explain why their white chocolate uh ganache wasn't working, or how starch types differ in short grain rice and uh works better in pudding because they don't retrograde like long-grain rice does.
+
+[53:11] Well, like, you know, most long grain, obviously tie black sticky is uh is uh anyway, whatever. Uh now running a kitchen myself, I make sure that all my cooks question everything they do. I teach methods, not recipes. I promote discovery, not uh uh conservative French technique, although I do like that stuff. I mean, when I went to Danielle a bunch of years ago and they presented me with like the whole fish and crust, even though it's overcooked, I was like, I love it.
+
+[53:31] I just uh because I love I mean it's you know it felt like you know, felt like old school anyway. Uh we listened to the podcast during prep. Crew gets into it. Uh we have one caller. HRN is seriously awesome, cooking issues awesome.
+
+[53:41] Keep it up, Joel. Thank you, Joel. Uh we got a caller, caller, you're on the air. Dave Arnold. What's up?
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+[53:47] This is Jeremiah Bullfrog, how are you, sir? Um, I'm doing awesome. How you how's Miami? Good, man. Nice.
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+[53:53] Hot hot and sunny, like we like it. I've got a burning question for you. All right, what's up? Um trying to uh emulsify powdered spices into brine. Right.
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+[54:08] Is there a trick to uh getting it keeping it from separating? Uh okay. Like how thick is the brine allowed to be? I mean, the thing is I don't know that it's gonna. I mean, you could do like the typical th thing.
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+[54:22] I mean, emulsif, you're not really emulsifying the spice, you're you're actually stabilizing it. So like the classic thing would be to hit it with some Xanthan, but then it's gonna be kind of snotty. You know what I mean? Right. Think like if we're doing pickled cauliflower.
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+[54:29] Right. Like half sour style in like a five percent brine. Oh, brine, not like brine, brine like serving brine. I got you. Uh yeah.
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+[54:44] So I mean you could do a like a gel like a light gel-an fluid gel, depending on the salt level. The problem with brine's is the salt level is so high, like I've had no luck making fluid gels with kimchi liquid because it's just it's just too it's just too strong. You know what I mean? They so it might not be able to do like gel and whereas xanthan would work in something like that, which is why they do it in uh in salad dressing, but like really freaking light amount of xanthan. I've done a bunch of tests with just very, very, very light amount of xanthan.
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+[55:14] Uh, you know, like less than a quarter of a percent or add a quarter, you know, one quarter, one percent or less, less. Right. So break out the uh break out the drug dealer scale and and just keep it real light? Yeah, and let it hydrate for a good like twenty, thirty minutes before you uh make uh add or de you know, add anything more to it so that you make sure it's in you wanna get there's a there's a point at which you can stop it from settling for let's say like thirty minutes. You know what I mean?
+
+[55:42] So which is more than enough for service. You know, are you doing it for a shelf or for service? Um, I mean we're gonna put it up as a preserve and then you know, seven to ten days pull it out and use it. Right. So but then like just like a couple of quick like back and forth and it'll it'll come back.
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+[55:57] Do you know what I mean? Right. You think I should hit it in the um in the vita prep? Yeah, you should definitely hit it in the vitaprep, and you should do it if i uh are they la are they lactic fermented things or are they um Yeah, super super lactic. Oh, you see, you might have problems because uh like some lactic acid bacteria can ferment xanthan, but I don't know.
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+[56:14] Uh you might have to add it afterwards, like to the brine. I might have to think about it. I've never tried to stabilize a uh like a pickle brine. Uh I mean salad dressings I've done all day every day, and the brine because I don't have to think about it. But I would try it like a low I would try a low amount of xanthan.
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+[56:37] I would pull the brine out, uh, add the xanthan to it, and then add the brine back and stir it rather than doing it beforehand because once it's really fermented out, it's not going to keep fermenting because they've you know that they've done their best and the acidity is already low, so it's not going to get a lot more you know sour, especially if it's already gone. And so then uh I think the Xanthan will be okay at that point. Whereas if you do it earlier, you you might run into I don't know if those bacteria eat Xanthan, but I know some do. Right. Um also on the same token, we're doing um we're doing pressed juices, and I was wondering what are like some commercial tricks to keep the juice from you know separating when we bottle it up.
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+[57:15] Uh oh, you because you want it to be you want it to stay whole again, like those guys usually add some form of pectin. So uh, you know, to to things like that to stabilize it. Um you can add other things, but I think they usually use some form of pectin to stabilize it. Like they add like a functionalized pectin. I I don't have the pectin stuff in my head.
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+[57:34] Piper does. Shoot me a like shoot uh shoot it to the to the cooking issues Twitter and I'll force Piper to write down what it is that you're supposed to use. Cool. And then do you think like um ultra s ultrasonic homogenizer would be cool for that too? I don't know, man.
+
+[57:48] Because the thing about it is is that, like, yeah, that'll that'll make things last longer, but break by breaking down the particles, but they they're not so good at breaking down like certain solid sizes, so it depends on what's floating in there. Like I've like I've had good luck doing emulsions with that, like making milks with it, uh, like you know, like duck fat into duck stock and making like a milky duck thing, but I haven't had uh a lot of luck just like making a juice finer. Do you know what I mean? But I mean your results may vary. Like everything else, like when you're experimenting with a zillion things, like you if you have like early success with one thing, or if you really love something, then you keep working at it till you get it right, and if you don't, you just don't follow down that line.
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+[58:25] So, like I never got into like, you know, hitting seawater with my ultrasonic homogenizer to see what happened, you know what I mean, or or anything like that. Right. And I remain unconvinced. Do you have one? No, I don't, but um, you know, give me a reason to go get one and well next next time you're in the city, stop by to uh stop by and uh I'll let you uh use mine, see what you think about it.
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+[58:45] Awesome. Thank you, Dave Arnold. All right, brother. Um, on the way out, I got one more thing on the way out. Don't you want me to don't you want me to read from uh Britt Adams?
+
+[58:54] I would, but it's so good. Jack, do I got like two minutes? Do I got two minutes? Do it, do it, do it. Do it, dude.
+
+[58:58] Okay. Uh listen, Brett, like I'm gonna answer your question uh next week on spices and uh you know why you uh you dry roast spices because it requires a longer answer. But I'm gonna read the other thing you said about how like sometimes uh this makes us happy. This is feedback that I like. I had both a question for the radio show uh and a quick story to recount that all of you, specifically Dave may appreciate.
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+[59:19] Regarding the latter, I first became aware of Dave and cooking issues a few years ago when I was searching online for further information on a tortilla making that wasn't fully covered in a Diana Kennedy cookbook, who's a great cookbook writer. Uh uh, I stumbled on Dave's blog uh post on nickstamalization, learned a ton, and have been a regular listener ever since. Thank you. And I've had a few delicious cocktails of Booker and Dax last time I was in New York. One particular part of the post that stood out to me was how the process of nickstamalization releases bound niacin in mature corn.
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+[59:44] Uh, which is why when Europeans took it but didn't take over the Nixomalization, they got Pilagra. Uh anyway. Um, okay. I later recounted this to my roommate who is both a nurse and an avid home cook. L uh this last summer, um, this roommate spent three months at a refugee camp in South Sudan volunteering for Doctors Without Borders.
+
+[1:00:01] One day he was eating lunch with the man in the charge of the food rations for the camp of fifty thousand plus people, and the rations guy brought up that they were likely going to have to switch the rations from sorghum, which you know I've never experimented with a lot. Anyway, to May's. Uh my roommate, remembering what I had told him, asked if he had heard of nixtimalization, specifically about its ability to r uh release digestible niacin, which, as I'm sure you can guess, is a big deal in a refugee camp. The director had never heard of it but was intrigued, went away to do some research, and later told my roommate that they had been uh begun learning to nixtimalize the corn for the rations. My roommate left shortly thereafter, so I have no idea if the full switch to maze was made, but I think it's pretty cool that your research in a kitchen in New York, uh, through somewhat random events could possibly have a very significant uh positive impact on the other side of the world.
+
+[1:00:43] Thought you'd like to hear that. I do like to hear that, uh, Brett, but in fact, uh it's your uh it's your paying attention to it. Uh I paid attention to it when someone else said it, and you paid attention to it when I said it, so it's it's you paying attention to it and remembering it, and that's how all good things are learned and all good things are transmitted by people paying attention, tucking away information and tastes in their head, and making the world a better place. Cooking issues. I'll see you in the special shout out to Plexophonic, whose submitted theme song is not able to be used for legal reasons.
+
+[1:01:21] This is I'll see you in My Dreams by Plexiphonic. You've been listening to Cooking Issues. Still I feel the thrill of your job. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:01:40] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's episode has been brought to you by Robert's, located at 261 Moore Street in beautiful Bushwick, Brooklyn. For more information, visit www.rebertispizza.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizza Willia in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling your questions live to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:18] Uh and uh we're jackless today, right, Joe? He's in Puerto Rico. Jackson, Puerto Rico? What's he doing in Puerto Rico? Vacation.
+
+[1:24] Hanging out with his dad. Really? Yeah, right? Yeah? What we like just like me, do they have like family there?
+
+[1:29] Are they just hanging in Puerto Rico? Um, apparently Jack took the week off and then his dad's like, just come to Puerto Rico with me. Sounds a little fishy. Yeah. Sounds like yeah, you know.
+
+[1:38] Well anyway, I hope they bring back some good rum. I like Puerto Rican rum. You like Puerto Rican rum, Joe? You like Puerto Rican rum? Oh definitely.
+
+[1:44] Yeah. Nastasha doesn't care because she's not listening, but uh I'm actually trying to help Joe out, so Snippiness hear this hear the snippiness people. This is what I deal with on a on a regular basis. Like constant undercurrents of uh snippiness. Constant undercurrents of snippiness.
+
+[1:58] Do you like Puerto Rican rum? Yes. Yeah? Okay. Can you name a Puerto Rican rum?
+
+[2:03] No. Okay. Ronabuelo. Okay. Uh no, wait, no.
+
+[2:06] Uh wait, it's Ronabuelo. Is that the Puerto Rican one? Now I gotta look it up. Now I've gotten all confused. By the way, a horrifying news.
+
+[2:13] I was researching today, champagne consumption down worldwide 5% this year so far. Can you believe that? That is crazy. I mean, like I figure Nastasha and I have made up for at least that 5% drop, just us, just us alone. I mean, the champagne, I mean, not that the champagne industry needs a push.
+
+[2:29] Do you know the French drink half of the champagne in the world? Is that I'm told? Wow. I mean, I mean, it's from there. I mean, it's makes sense.
+
+[2:34] I bet you we drink well over half the world, you know, Zinfandel stuff. Yeah. You know? And I'm not just talking like white, I'm talking real Zinfandel. I bet you we drink well, well over half.
+
+[2:43] You go there, the French should have no idea what you're talking about when you mention Zimfidel. At least they used to. I haven't been to France in a number of years. But anyway, my point is is that champagne is one of the few drinks. This is my push for champagne.
+
+[2:52] Uh this show's not brought to you by champagne, is it, Joe? Who's bringing this show to us today? That would be Roberta's Pizza. Roberta's Pizzeria is bringing us the show today? They sure are.
+
+[3:02] And Roberta's served champagne, do they not? Yeah, I believe so. I think we got a bottle of Prosecco for the 100th episode, right? Alright, so yes. No.
+
+[3:10] Yeah, we might have. I look, I like Prosecco fine, but I love champagne. I love champagne, right? Any sort of sparkling wine. Uh, this is the kind of the one of the very few things that Nastasha and I can uh agree on is uh love of sparkling wines.
+
+[3:22] But uh maybe this show is part in part brought to you by champagne since they sell Roberta's pizzeria and champagne. Go drink it. It's one of the few drinks that is uh kind of always uh always apropos, right? Right. You know, graduation, what do you want?
+
+[3:35] Champagne. Like around dinner time? Champagne. What about after dinner? Champagne.
+
+[3:39] At a brunch? Champagne. Hmm. Cock cocktail thing after work? At your bar, champagne.
+
+[3:45] Any bar really, right? Yeah. Champagne. It's not a crack against uh you know our cocktails, it's just you'd rather just have have have the champagne. Uh a sad occasion you need cheering up.
+
+[3:54] Champagne. Yeah. So very few uh situations where champagne is not. See, people make a mistake and they only drink it around the New Year's time, as though you need to be celebrating something to drink champagne. And that's just not the case.
+
+[4:06] Champagne is always delicious. There are very few things I don't like. I like look, I will not have champagne with my bagels and locks. It's disgusting. I do not like champagne with uh cured cured meats.
+
+[4:17] In fact, uh I love them both quite dearly. They're two of the things that are closest to my heart. But I all you need is a little bite of bread in between, and you're okay. So you uh well, what happens is someone serves me a glass of champagne and a platter of cured meats. Typically, what I will do is I will take a couple sips of the champagne.
+
+[4:33] I will then have a bite of bread, I will then eat the entirety of the platter of cured meats in, you know, depending on the size. I can I can eat upwards of uh a quarter of a pound of prosciutto every two minutes. In that range, right? Finish it, have a couple of bites of bread, and then go back to the champagne. I think that's the way you should do it.
+
+[4:52] But uh, this is not only champagne. Uh I also really enjoy a good kava. Do you like kava? Uh huh. I like kava kava is actually my when I buy, I buy kava because it's actually inexpensive.
+
+[5:01] But if somebody else is buying, I drink champagne. Yes. Actually, I owe Nustacha bottle of champagne. No, just good wine, I think. Well, the champagne's good.
+
+[5:09] You don't like champagne, you want a red wine instead? No. No, champagne would be good. Well, what was it? Because uh you didn't know this.
+
+[5:15] You thought the singer of Cat in the in the cradle was Cat Stevens. And it's not, it's some other guy. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Who was it?
+
+[5:22] I can't remember. Somebody look it up. Okay. Uh uh Josh uh Whitlam writes in from Somerset. By the way, Somerset land of apple cider and cheddar.
+
+[5:31] Do you know that? Land of Apple Cider and Cheddar? Anyway. Uh it's kind of like where uh where all that comes from. Anyway, uh he writes in, it's the first comment we've gotten from the UK on liquid on the liquid nitrogen, the unfortunate thing happened with liquid nitrogen with uh uh the teenager who lost her stomach.
+
+[5:45] Anyway, uh maybe something more to discuss on the next show. I know Dave is uh talked about it on the last one. Crazy what one does uh we say, uh what does one do to stop uh party or group of people who clearly know nothing about uh the stuff they are trying to ban? Uh just talking about the uh liquid nitrogen attempted ban on liquid nitrogen. Um people are talking about putting a ban on something that resulted in a horrific accident once.
+
+[6:04] If they're so worried about it, then they should surely take the initial uh the surely best initial steps would be to install a certification system that qualifies the staff to use LN just like food safety, etcetera. The fault is clearly with the bar uh uh and a lack of incorrect training uh about LN, and I'm sure if they uh they know it and that we do everything to prevent it, a repeat of that accident in the future. Why isn't there a ban on cigarettes? The dangers are clearly spelled out to us that we still make our own choice about whether to smoke it or not. Rant over, love the show, Josh Whitlam Somerset UK.
+
+[6:28] Okay, well the what Josh, I agree with you i in in the vast majority of it, except for this one thing. And the big issue here, and this is the reason why uh this this incident in uh in the UK where this uh teenager lost her stomach after consuming liquid nitrogen, which is ridiculous. No one should ever serve liquid nitrogen to someone, but the the the difference between that and the incident that happened in Germany uh several years ago where a cook brought home liquid nitrogen and blew themselves to pieces, uh, you know, blew blew his hands off and and damaged his leg and was put in a coma and so is that uh in this case the uh accident happened to a customer, and the customer wasn't assuming, wasn't necessarily assuming any extra risks, unlike uh unlike cigarettes. Now, um, as far as the actual practitioners are concerned, assuming that they know all the risks, then I think you're absolutely right in your in your point. But the the issue is it is true, you should you should always take the utmost care to ensure that your customers are not exposed to any extra risks that they don't know about, right?
+
+[7:26] I mean, and so that's that's always the argument of why you need to put a label on the bottom of your menu that you're consuming something that's raw or undercooked. It's only if they don't have an expectation of uh uh of of otherness. So when you go to a sushi restaurant, right, it's assumed you're eating raw fish and that you realize that there's certain inherent dangers, or that if you order a steak rare that there are certain inherent dangers, although not much. Uh but anyway, and so the the question is here is it is the customer taking on a risk of which they uh aren't aware. But in the large part I agree with you.
+
+[7:56] Okay. Uh and Kang Ingber, longtime listener, friend of the show, uh wrote in and said he enjoyed uh the CNN broadcast. Thank you. I think they're gonna re-air that guy uh that re-air that broadcast uh sometime uh right before right before the Christmas. Right before the Christmas, said I was serious and fun in the right proportion.
+
+[8:13] I usually have it exactly exactly opposite. I'm usually ridiculous and serious in the exact opposite proportion of what's uh of what's uh reasonable. Okay. Uh number three, Ryan Santos wrote in and said an industry friend of mine just got an ultra low freezer. It currently runs around minus 118 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[8:31] I've never had something like this at my disposal. I'm curious if there are any cool techniques or applications with it. Thanks, Ryan. Okay, uh, I did a little uh conversion there, and minus 118 degrees Fahrenheit is roughly uh negative 83 Celsius. Now, what you're looking at here is you're in the range of an ultra-low freezer or a super freezer.
+
+[8:51] And um, here's the big here's the big deal. Now, the the these freezers, which are used in labs, but also in the storage of meats, uh store something at at what I've heard in the industry called below the eutectic point or below the glass transition uh temperature of the foods that are involved. Uh now let me explain what that means. So, first of all, you have to get in in your mind there's two there's two separate things that happen when something is freezing, right? One are two separate things you have to worry about.
+
+[9:17] One is the storage temperature at which you're keeping an item, right? And the other is the rate at which something freezes. Now, these ultra-low uh temperature freezers don't necessarily freeze things that much faster than uh you could freeze it using uh a regular freezer, right? For fast freezing, you need a blast freezer or a fluid bed freezer or a merging directly in a cryogenic liquid like liquid nitrogen or something of this nature. Right now, now the re the reason that's important is is that if you freeze something slowly, right, as you're freezing, large ice crystals grow.
+
+[9:52] Large ice crystals themselves can be damaging. So you have very uh small number of ice crystal nucleation sites, and they form relatively small number of relatively large ice crystals. More importantly, those ice crystals are being formed uh by water leaving, typically, leaving the cell matrix of the food that you're freezing, dehydrating the cells just like you were dehydrating them, and forming crystals in between the cell bat in between the cells of the meat. So you're increasing the amount of moisture that's it's in between the cells, you're dehydrating the cells, concentrating uh bad things that can go on, and causing large crystals that can puncture the cell membrane, which all means that when it thaws, it will leak out, uh it will leak out its fluids and you'll have drip loss and the normal things that you associate with damage due to slow freezing. If you freeze extremely rapidly, one you get small ice crystals, you get a bunch of ice crystals, and if you freeze quickly enough, you can get ice crystals on the insides of the cells.
+
+[10:48] And so you don't have as much uh dehydration of the cells, and the structure of the meat or or produce remains intact. And so that's what fast freezing can do for you. Now, here's the other thing. A lot of times people quote the freezing temperature of a food. Food doesn't in fact have a one single freezing temperature.
+
+[11:08] What happens is as you start approaching the initial freezing point of a food, water will start to pure water, will start to crystallize in the thing. At a certain point, uh you're gonna reach uh a situation where let's say you have let's let's make this very simple. Let's just say we have salt and water. All right, so it's not food anymore, it's salt and water. If you have just salt, sodium uh chloride, and water, what happens is as you chill it, uh their ice crystals will start to form, and as ice crystals form, what you're left with is more concentrated salt water solution.
+
+[11:38] That concentrated salt water solution has a lower freezing point. So the temperature goes down a little more, and then you have an even more concentrated, and it goes down and down and down until you reach the point where salt can no longer become more concentrated in the liquid. You've reached what's called the eutectic point. It's a point at which uh the that temperature is the lowest that that system can get and still have them remain together. At which point you freeze out solid water and uh sodium chloride crystals, right?
+
+[12:05] So it's frozen out solid. That's the eutectic point. In real food, there are a bunch of little eutectic points where things freeze out, right? Once you get below and any point during that freezing curve, there's still some liquid water in there, right? And what that means is that as temperature fluctuates in a freezer, that liquid water will melt and recrystallize as the temperature fluctuates, and so ice crystals will tend to grow over time and make your food crappier over time.
+
+[12:29] So there's quality loss there. Additionally, that water that's in there is super concentrated with regard to enzymes, acids, salts, and all those things that can carry on chemical reactions. So even though the temperature is a lot lower, so the chemical reaction rates are a lot slower, the concentrations are increased a huge amount, and so awful reactions can take place in your freezer. Once you get below the eutectic point of the last thing that's gonna freeze out, there's still actually what's called bound unfreezeable water. And that unfreezeable water is the unfreezable water that's next to things like hydrocolloids or next to things like protein.
+
+[13:08] And uh the reaction between the uh water molecules that are right at the surface of those things and those molecules themselves prevent the water from actually becoming a part of the crystal ice lattice that's around them, and so you have unfrozen water even below the last eutectic point, right? So the next thing you hit there is called the glass phase. And when you hit the glass phase, which is that low temperature there, everything stops moving around, basically. I mean it moves, it bounces from a thermal standpoint, like the molecules are moving around. But the water molecules stop moving physically and stop undergoing chemical reactions.
+
+[13:40] For all intents and purposes, at that point, the product is stable. Enzymatic reactions are stopped. Oxidation reactions are stopped. All the reactions in it that are uh related to food quality stop. Ice crystal growth and uh uh and remelting and changing stop.
+
+[13:56] So once you freeze something fast and accurately using a different technique other than that low temperature freezer, you put it in that low temperature freezer, and it stays good almost indefinitely. Like it basically doesn't move in quality. And Mark Ladner at Del Posto has one, he freaking loves it. He loves it. He originally got it, I think, because uh they were buying super frozen tuna.
+
+[14:15] It's called super frozen. They were buying super frozen tuna, and that stuff stayed like super primo uh in there. I mean, like no oxidation, no nothing. It was just beautiful, beautiful stuff. Uh, and so he used it for that, but he's also used it for uh to store really, really fragile, I think things like mushrooms, I think things like truffles in a much better state than they could be uh stored any other way.
+
+[14:36] So it's an awesome find. Uh and it's one of those things that I wish uh I had. Uh Harold's on the phone. Okay, so listen, Joel, we have calling in for you to read an excerpt on the Myard reactions from his most important book on food and cooking, live from California, Harold McGee. Hey Dave.
+
+[15:00] Hey, how are you? Hi, Harold. So uh so this was a specific request. The person, uh Joel, who wrote uh one of our theme songs that we use here on the show as a thank you for writing the theme song, wanted you to come on air live and read a section from on food and cooking. The Myard reactions on Myard Reactions, yes.
+
+[15:19] So you uh you prepared to do this? I am I have a question though, because uh that paragraph does refer to the previous paragraph on caramelization. Should I just allude caramelization or should I start there? Hmm. Hmm.
+
+[15:36] The more the better. Yeah, the more the better, I think. I think just go for it. This is by the way, the first reading we've ever had on so you know give it some feeling, Harold. This is like our first reading ever.
+
+[15:46] I'm very excited. Well, you know, it's a first for me, too, so I'm I'm a little nervous. I'm not sure I'm gonna do this. I'll I'll give it a shot. All right, beautiful.
+
+[15:56] All right. Caramelization. The simplest browning reaction is the caramelization of sugar, and it's not simple at all. When we heat plain table sugar, essentially just molecules of sucrose, it first melts into a thick syrup, then slowly changes color, becoming light yellow and progressively deepening to a dark brown. At the same time, its flavor, initially sweet and odorless, develops acidity, some bitterness, and a rich aroma.
+
+[16:29] The chemical reactions involved in this transformation are many, and they result in the formation of hundreds of different reaction products, among them sapporganic acids, sweet and bitter derivatives, many fragrant volatile molecules, and brown colored polymers. It's a remarkable change and a fortunate one to the pleasures of many candies and other sweets. Even more fortunate and complex are the reactions responsible for the cook and flavor of bread crusts, chocolate, coffee beans, dark beers, and roasted meat. All foods that are not primarily sugar. These are the Maillard reactions after Louis Camille Maillard, a phonemic who discovered and described them around 1910.
+
+[17:22] The sequence begins with the reaction of a carbomolecule and an amino acid. An unstable intermediate structure is formed, and this then undergoes further changes, producing hundreds of different byproducts. Again, a brown coloration and full intense flavor result. MIARD reactions are more complex and meaty than caramelized flavors because the involvement of the amino acids adds nitrogen and sulfur atoms to the mix of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and produces new families of molecules and new aromatic dimensions. Hell yeah.
+
+[18:04] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
+
+[18:11] Nice. How are you doing over there, Hurl? I hear you're coming to the Museum of Food and Drink Fundraiser. Yes, yeah. I'm gonna fly out to the East Coast this coming weekend and we'll be sticking around for about 10 days.
+
+[18:25] So yeah, really glad about that timing. Actually, it's not a fundraiser, I'm being correct. It's it's just a thank you for people that already signed up for membership, but or who have been involved in the past. We're excited. So wait, can you what do you have a second?
+
+[18:36] You want to talk about this recent stuff on uh on cooking uh sugar crystals? Or do you have a second or no? Uh I've got a couple of minutes, yeah. Yeah. So actually the the passage I just read about caramelization uh has been somewhat superseded.
+
+[18:54] Uh because in that paragraph I say, you know, when when you make caramel, what you do is you heat uh sucrose crystals, which are solid until they melt, and then uh the melted sugars uh start to undergo these other reactions which turn them brown and um develop other flavors and so on. And that's that's still basically true. But uh very interestingly, uh I think it was 2010 that these first results came out. A carbohydrate chemist at Hawaii was trying to figure out why it is that nobody's agree on the uh precise melting point of sucrose, which is crazy. You know, table sugar is such ordinary, familiar stuff.
+
+[19:38] It's used in so many different things. It's a solid, it's pure, and so it should have a very well-defined melting point. And yet, when you look in the literature, there are dozens of different melting points, and they're kind of in a range, but uh, you know, not precise. And she wanted to know why it is that the uh melting point of sugar was so hard to measure. What she discovered was that technically speaking, sugar doesn't have a melting point, which is amazing.
+
+[20:09] That is that um if you heat sugar and you melt it, and you've then uh uh let it solidify again and then try to melt it again, the melting point that you get uh the second time around is lower. Uh that is, it takes less heat to melt the sugar after it's been melted once, and so on and so on. So the more often you melt it, the lower the the melting temperature becomes, unlike, for example, water, where you know the melting point is 32 degrees Fahrenheit and it doesn't change. And so what she discovered was that uh every time you heat sucrose, and that includes keeping it at room temperature, it's actually degenerating, it's actually degrading. So the sucrose molecules are slowly breaking apart into first its constituent parts, which are one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose, and then those sugars uh break down into other things.
+
+[21:09] And what she discovered is that process is happening at a significant rate, even at room temperature. And certainly if you heat it up to enough to melt it, you're accelerating that, and that means that what you end up with is a block of table sugar that in fact is uh no longer pure and yet's progressively less pure the more often you do it. And so I looked at that and I thought that's really interesting. I wonder if I could uh caramelize sugar, solid sugar, just by keeping it at a you know moderately for hours. And so I put some sugar crystals in the oven at about uh I don't know two two twenty something like that uh which is way below the the melting point of sucrose took them out after they were in there for overnight and sure enough they turned brown they're solid but they'd caramelized now why did but you also had an effect where the inside liquefied do we ever figure out why that happened why it changed why it was differently affected on the inside of the crystal than the outside I I don't have the the equipment to uh you know to determine why exactly but I have theories and my theory is that um so these are the big sugar crystals that you can buy you know in in Chinese groceries uh they're you know like uh half inch long and and quarter inch thick like and um I don't know exactly how they're they're manufactured but I'm I figure it has to do with you know the kind of thing that they do when when you make ice cubes, uh they the crystallization happens, the solidification happens kind of from the outside in, and you end up with at the core of the crystal, uh just as you do with uh with an ice cube, a lot of stuff, you know, dissolved gases and and impurities of various kinds.
+
+[23:03] I guess is that there's this little pocket of impurities at the center of the sugar crystal. They uh hasten the breakdown of sucrose molecules. And so the the caramelization begins there and proceeds uh furthest there. And so it's true that I've I've got some pictures on my website of um sugar crystals of that size that uh are liquid on the inside. They're solid on the outside still, but they've got liquid caramel on the inside and you crack them open and the caramel leaks out.
+
+[23:37] Wait so you think those big crystals are are formed not from a single nucleation site out. You don't actually think they're single crystals you think they're formed like ice cubes and multiple nucleation sites uh that's my guess. But like I say I don't I don't know what the manufacturing process is exactly. So yeah I don't know. You have time for you have time for you I don't know.
+
+[24:01] I have no idea I've tried to grow crystals on strings, you know, for my kids and I've never gotten a crystal even approaching what you can buy in a store like that, not even approaching it. And I I'm not talking like I'm not talking like uh like uh I waited a day or a week. I'm talking like three weeks. You know what I mean? Like like long waits.
+
+[24:21] And um but that said I didn't put it under in into for instance like a heated atmosphere with force evaporation. You know what I mean? I just had it out on the on the counter, and presumably at some point the solution, I mean it'll eventually evaporate, I guess, 100%. But I mean, I I did not have any luck growing big crystals. And I I tried a bunch of different things too.
+
+[24:43] I tried Hello, you c you're cutting for a second. Are you there? Uh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You tried to.
+
+[24:51] Yeah, yeah. We lost you at uh you tried, and then you were about to say what you were trying. Ah, okay, yeah. So it it seems to be part of the problem is the viscosity of the sugar solution. It takes so long for molecules of sucrose to get onto the surface.
+
+[25:05] So I tried things like uh, you know, adding uh ethanol alcohol to the to the liquid to thin it. The solubility of sugar and and ethanol is not that great, and I thought that would that would be pretty good, but it didn't work. I had lots of different things, and I have no idea they might make those big beautiful crystals. Yeah, yeah, well that's something for us to look up, I guess, for for next time. Yeah.
+
+[25:30] Yeah. You have uh you have 30 seconds because uh someone wrote in with a question that I actually you mean you're an expert in most of these questions, but uh specifically on this one. Do you have a second or no? Sure. All right.
+
+[25:41] Uh this was uh from Brett Adams saying, uh on the theme of Mexican food, I have a question about dry roasting chilies, which also applies to whole spices. Most recipes begin by roasting dried chilies, hydrating them, then blending them into a sauce. The dry roasting is supposed to help bring out their flavor. My two-part question is what is it about dry heat that makes the ingredient more delicious? And B, if I'm going to be cooking the chili later when it's in the sauce, won't the flavor boosting aspect of heat happen then, or is there something particular about dry roasting the individual ingredient first that doesn't occur when it's part of the sauce?
+
+[26:11] The only thing I would guess is that the higher possible temperatures in a non-wet situation. I mean, I know that you've studied this. Yeah, that's exactly it. Uh the the uh various com the chili or whatever spice it is you're using are in a spice concentrated, and so you apply heat to that immediately gets way above the boiling point, and you start to get caramelization reactions, browning reactions. The aroma compounds react with each other uh because you're at such a high temperature.
+
+[26:47] If you uh if you hydrate them and essentially steam them or mill them or anything like that, then you get a completely different set of reactions, and they're they're not as extensive because the temperature is much lower. Right. But it's one of these other things where people it's like it's seem they're not it's not a better or worse. It's a it's a it's a different situation. I mean, like I know that if you take coriander and you dry roast it, you lose uh some of the citrusy things that can be nice.
+
+[27:12] I mean, so in other words, I I tend to use like a combination. I know when I'm making liquors, I'll tend to use a combination of uh untoasted and toasted spices when I'm doing it just to accentuate the different kind of components, right? I mean, it's not a not a better or worse phenomenon, just a different thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And same is true in in Indian cooking, for example.
+
+[27:32] You use some spices, uh you you you use uh a certain amount of the different spices, but you use portions of them at stages in the cooking, and then often the very last step is to fry some spices very quickly at the very very end and then pour them on the top. Right. Or whatever it is, fizzles away and you end up with uh all these different layers of fragrance. All right, well, as always, Harold, thank you so much for calling in. A pleasure to have you in the show.
+
+[28:01] We're gonna take our first commercial break. We'll be right back with Cooking Issue. You're listening to Andy's Biscuits by Pamela Royal on the Heritage Radio Network.org. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member.
+
+[28:44] Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. My name is Brandon Boyd, co-owner of Roberta's a super duper awesome place. Robert is a very, very, very, very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. We're also super awesome.
+
+[30:06] Thank you, Heritage. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Alan Sternberg wrote in. That was fun though, right? With McGee?
+
+[30:14] Yeah. That's fun. Unprecedented. I think he's never been on the show before. Oh, I'm precedent having him read aloud.
+
+[30:19] Yeah. Yeah. Next time we'll get him, we'll get him a landline so he doesn't cut in there. Like that was uh, but that was awesome. I I've never heard him actually read aloud from the uh on food and cooking.
+
+[30:27] No. He's like, the thing is you gotta know Harold people. Like Harold, Harold is always a measured man. Right? True or false.
+
+[30:34] Like I Well, not always. Well, I mean, you know, well, when it comes to food, he is. Yes. Like, in other words, like, Harold is one of those few people, and this is why I love him so much, is that uh Harold will never talk out of his nether parts. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:50] Like, he always thinks about I've heard I've heard people ask Harold some crazy nutbag questions. And he's never, he's never like cra like he's never like, what the hell are you talking about? Which is not what he sounds like, obviously, you just heard him. But like he's never like that. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:07] He's like, he's saying, I love that guy, he's so measured. Anyway, gladly he's glad he's coming to the uh the museum event. Okay, Alan Sternberg writes in on Kimiek, which is spelled Q I M I Q. Dumb, right? Q I M I Q.
+
+[31:18] I think it was invented by an Austrian. Teamic. And Carbonation. Uh I've recently been introduced to the product Kimique. Their corporate chef demoed it at the culinary school where I work, but sadly I couldn't attend.
+
+[31:29] I now have several containers of it to play with and wondered your thoughts on the product. The blackberry Merlot Sorbet we made with it set beautifully and held shape at room temperature for damn near forty-five minutes, even while the texture softened. By the way, my son thinks damn's a curse. I'm like, meh, you can't say it, but it's not really a curse. What's your thoughts, Des?
+
+[31:46] I agree. I guess I think when you get to maybe be a junior in high school, you could say it. Yeah? Yeah. Especially dam on its own without the without the without the without the cut.
+
+[31:55] Yeah, like it seems to me it's like, you know, you know, it's right up there with root and tutin in terms of strength. Uh anyway. Second. Uh I've also been interested in carbonating a sphere or sauce. The ideal end product would be a plated element that wouldn't release the bubbles until it's in the mouth.
+
+[32:12] Any tips would be useful. Okay, Alan, let's take the second one first, since I'm much more of an expert on uh carbonation. So the issue with carbonation is um if you're gonna put it into a liquid sauce, the carbonation uh is gonna is gonna leave. That's all there is to it. So if you spherify it, what you what ends up happening when you spherify a s uh um a sauce that's carbonated, is that you develop a CO2 pocket on the inside of the sphere.
+
+[32:36] Now eventually, right, you'll reach an equilibrium uh at whatever the uh equilibrium v vapor pressure of the stuff is on the inside. So if you could create uh a sphere like alginate in a reverse sphere spherified situation or something that uh actually was strong enough to hold up to it, right? Then you could do it, but you'd probably be talking somewhere in the range of 35 PSI. And I don't know whether or not an alginate envelope or a pectin envelope, pectin wouldn't do it, but like whether one of those uh or a gel-an envelope could withstand that kind of a pressure. Now, if you did it right, maybe you could, in which case you could just uh set you know a a coating of uh alginate or gel an around the outside of uh a spherified thing.
+
+[33:17] You'd get an air pocket in it, but the air pocket would equilibrate, I mean, the uh not an air pocket, a CO2 pocket. It would stay there, and then it would stay carbonated for a little while. I mean, it's gas permeable, so you'd lose it eventually, but it would stay for a little while. Uh and obviously it would be fine if you then stored that for a while in a carbonated container that was pressurized, then you could store it indefinitely until you're ready to serve it, right? As long as you can pour it out of the bottle.
+
+[33:42] That wouldn't be a problem. Uh but that is gonna happen. If you really want to lock the stuff in there, you're gonna have to go the route of heavy gelatin. So if you set a carbonated product with heavy, like heavy carbonation, I'm talking heavy, like 80 psi, right as the stuff's going to uh set, which is around room temperature, then you can get uh a prickly feeling in the gel that you've formed. It's not a sauce, but the problem is it's more of a piercing, like needle-like carbonation, less I'm poking nostalgia, I'm saying that so that that can have the effect in my head of the piercing needle-like uh carbonation.
+
+[34:17] But um, it doesn't feel the same as a soda. It feels more like pop rocks. You know how pop rocks has that kind of piercing feel to it? Has more of that piercing pop rock feel. Um you can't freeze stuff that's carbonate.
+
+[34:29] If you freeze a bottle that's carbonated and the bottle doesn't explode, when it unfreezes, it will be carbonated again, but the freezing itself will force the CO2 out, and the CO2 will only be present in the unfrozen section, although at a very concentrated rate, because as I said, when you lower the actually, I guess I haven't said this, when you lower the temperature, you increase the solubility of the CO2. Anyway, back to Kimique. I've never used chemik. I assume it's uh pronounced chimique. Uh, and it comes from, I went on their website, chemic is a word creation.
+
+[34:56] Like if you have to do that much explaining about your product with the name, then the name is dumb. Yes. Kimique. What does it mean? Kimique.
+
+[35:03] It's a word creation stemming from the words quick and milk, demonstrating how quick and easy the product is to use. But uh what it really is is they take this is how they make it. I looked up H A M A Food Service is the company that has the patents. And whenever you find out what a product is, you really want to know what the hell's going on. You find the patent literature on it.
+
+[35:21] So if you go to H A M A Hama, I guess food service, go to their patent. They have a patent on the technique they're using. Here's what they're doing. Because on the on their website, they say stuff like, we're coding each and every milk cell with gelatin. What does that even mean?
+
+[35:36] Milk cell. What does that mean? Is that meaning? They mean my cells? Do they mean casing my cells?
+
+[35:40] What do they mean? It has no meaning. No meaning. This is the problem when you have like someone translating from their non native language into the whatever, anyway. It looks like an interesting product.
+
+[35:48] But on their patent, here's what's actually happening. They're taking skim milk and they're putting skim milk through a very uh specific temperature uh regimen, adding a very specific grain size and bloom strength of gelatin to it, holding it at a uh a very specific temperature until it uh swells the way they want it, they hydrate it by bringing the temperature up, holding it at a s for a certain length of time, and then introducing a specific amount of light cream to it, 15% cream, right? They then uh homogenize it and pasteurize it so it fills in like parmelot containers so they can stay at room temperature for a year, shelf stable. That's what it is, right? So, what's happening here, and if you want to know why that makes a difference, uh you want to go.
+
+[36:33] This is the most I love it when I find people like this. Dr. Bernard Cole's home page. Uh, here's what Dr. Bernard Cole has to say about himself.
+
+[36:41] He's from some South Africa. I have a doctorate in food science from the University of Pretoria. I am a retired, I'm retired from full-time employment after spending 30 years in gelatin. I am willing to assist anyone who could benefit from my many fields of experience in gelatin. And this is his website, and his website is just a list of like interesting and cool facts about gelatin.
+
+[37:02] He's in South Africa somewhere. But it's like inside gelatin somewhere. Yeah, he's like totally set in gelatin. He's like, he's like, you want to know about gelatin from pigs? Got you.
+
+[37:10] You want to know about gelatin from cows? Got you. Got you. Gelatin. I do it.
+
+[37:14] Anyway, so he's like, he's like sitting there, he's like, I don't know what he is, 70 something. I don't know. He's sitting there, he's like, I'm retired. You got gelatin problems, I got answers. He's like, you know, whatever you want to know about gelatin, he's got.
+
+[37:24] But anyway, he has a page on what uh gelatin does in dairy situations and in general, right? So so what what gelatin is doing is uh and this is why it leads to all the cool stuff that Kami can theoretically do, although I've never used it, right? Gelatin uh is a great uh foam uh former, foaming agent, which is why it's used in marshmallows, okay? And it can emulsify it uh it helps in in emulsifying things, right? Um it also is really good at stabilizing things like ice creams, which is why in your sorbet, uh although you did it in a sor in a sorbet, but it does works in ice creams uh as well.
+
+[37:57] Of course, it wasn't ice cream because you used Kemique, which is milk-based, so boop. Uh so boop. Uh right. Also, uh it uh it protects uh uh dairy-based systems from curdling when acids are added. So you can add lemon juice and white wine directly to Kamique or vice versa, and you don't get curdling.
+
+[38:15] And it's because uh, you know, if you read uh further on into uh Dr. Cole's uh webpage, it's because um the gelatin interacts with the casein micells and prevents them from uh aggregating and coalescing, breaking and falling out. So so it it does that. Um it has a lot of cool things that uh it also helps to make uh oil soluble things more soluble in dairy systems, right? And this this is basically explanation, and and he links to a bunch of uh uh research papers on it, but at leads to uh the main things that Kimi claims that they can do.
+
+[38:44] They're acid, alcohol, and bake stable without breaking. So I actually I'd like to get a hold of some so we can make some cream liqueurs, even though I don't really like them. I have people asking me constantly about the cream liquor. In fact, we've answered two or three questions on cream cream liqueurs here on the on the stuff. So maybe we can make some Baileys that won't form the what's that?
+
+[39:06] What's it called when you mix roses, lime juice, and baileys in your mouth, and it's disgusting. It has a name. Is that the cement mixer? I don't know. I think it might be the cement mixer.
+
+[39:13] Disgusting, disgusting. You know, no one over the age of uh 21 plus 15 minutes should ever consume one in their life. Like you're allowed to consume it in the first 15 minutes of your bar binge on your 21st birthday if you're here in the US, but at no other time. Um they say that it it reduces butter fat because it's got a higher viscosity. Another thing Dr.
+
+[39:32] Cole pointed out is that the viscosity of cream increases greatly with added gelatin, and so uh it can make it seem like there's more fat in it. I don't really believe in replacing fat with things like gelatin because I just believe in adding the freaking fat. But that's me. I hate whatever, anyway, okay. Uh it can replace flour, starch, or roux partially uh because of that.
+
+[39:52] I mean, so it's got a lot of a lot of cool, a lot of cool stuff. Uh it stays free sauce stable, uh going through sous vide. So a lot of cool stuff, but I I have not used it, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading Dr. Cole's website on gelatin and related products. All right.
+
+[40:07] Uh and see, very quickly. Uh Steven Silva wrote in I think I'm not sure whether we talked about this last week or not, Stas. We might have. I feel like we might have that man's writing with a dull pencil. Who's writing?
+
+[40:18] There's a man outside writing notes in a notebook with a dull pencil, and it's bothering Nastasha because presumably she's thinking about the noise that it's making as it's going across the door. He's reading a book on Rauschenberger. Are you a Rauschenberg fan? I don't know much about it. And Rick Bayliss is here.
+
+[40:32] I'm this is not Rick Bayless we're talking about, it's another guy. This guy looks for all the world like imagine the guy from Mad Men who's not Don Draper grew a beard. It looks like not a live strong sweatshirt. Yeah, if you can imagine what's that guy's name? Do you know the guy's name from Mad Men?
+
+[40:45] The the his partner, the older guy that was sleeping around with the lady in the thing. It's that guy plus a beard with a Rauschenberg book and a hat and a live strong sweater. Right? So now you you picture what I'm a dull pencil. And an NFL pencil.
+
+[40:58] Yeah, and I'm watching Rick Bayless eat his lunch, which is always nice. I love the Rick Bayless. You like the Rick Bayless? I've never met him. Never met.
+
+[41:03] He's a good man. Good man. Okay. Uh Stephen Silva wrote in on lactic acid and meats. Could you please review the concept and prevention of lactic acid buildup when cooking meats at low temperature?
+
+[41:11] We sear any meats that we cook over three hours to prevent it, and it is 99% uh prevent uh percent effective in eliminating this issue. Just wondering if you have any updated thoughts on this. Uh by lactic acid, uh I'm assuming you mean uh lactobacillus growth, uh bacterial growth. And I think the fact that you're preventing it means that you're probably following uh the steps that you're saying. You're pre-searing the meats and you're not crowding them in the bath.
+
+[41:31] I think that uh a vast majority of the people who are having problems with uh blow off and lactic acid and nasty flavors in the bags are crowding their baths too much. In other words, they're trying to put too many things in the bath. Uh that's what I think is happening. Uh that's that is my guess. Uh okay.
+
+[41:47] Uh we have ooh, we have uh Joe, what's the question here? I'm looking at these two pictures of two vita vita preps. You gonna give me the question? L Joe? Yeah, I'm here.
+
+[41:57] Uh so it's basically let me let me pull it up. But the question is uh which would be a better uh Christmas gift of these of these two uh the Vitapep versus the Vitamix 750. What's better for home use? And uh this is Jacob, and he's looking for something that will blend kale into soups or drinks without leaving a whole lot of chunks. All right.
+
+[42:20] Uh well here's my here but first off, I think they will both they will both work. For a long time, the uh the top end uh Vitamix was exactly the same as the Vitapep, the exception being in terms of its motor and its capabilities. The nameplate was different, and the main difference between them was the warranty. So you know, the Vitapep, if you used a Vita if you used a Vitamix in a commercial setting, uh your your warranty was void, right? Uh so the Vitamix had a much longer warranty for home use, right, and cost less.
+
+[42:53] The Vitapep had a much shorter warranty, but c and cost more, but was uh certified for use in a commercial kitchen. And that was the main difference. They since you changed them. So if you look on the web at a classic Vitapep versus uh the Vitamix 750, you'll notice that there's a different uh pitcher, blender pitcher style. Uh the older style, they by the way, here's what's really messed up.
+
+[43:14] Unless you're working with a bar boss or one of the really large pitchers, both those pitcher styles will work on either base. So you can swap them out. The new Vitamix 750 base pitcher is designed to be wider than the old one and shorter. And the advantage of that is it fits underneath a counter. If you have like uh if you have uh cabinets over your counter, you can fit it underneath, okay?
+
+[43:36] Uh and uh whereas the old Vitapep, one of the big pains in the butt about the Vitapep in the house is it does not fit under counters. It hits it right at the blender top, right? Uh the other problem I have with the old Vitapep containers is is that if you don't have the plunger in them, they don't form a very good uh vortex 100% of the time at the base of the pitcher unit because they uh it's too choked up, it's a little too narrow. The newer pitcher style that they use, which again I say you can use the same pitcher on either unit, is wider at the base and so allows for more kind of uh mixing. There's not as much of a choke up point, more similar to a blend tech blender.
+
+[44:15] Now, here's the downside of the new size pitcher. The new size pitcher holds the same amount as the old one. The old one is better at blending small amounts of ingredients because it's got a smaller base. So the old one, your minimum blend amount was in the area of 200, 250 milliliters, whereas the new one's gonna take more stuff, more product in your blender pitcher to uh adequately blend so that the blades are adequately engaged with your product. If you're only blending larger quantities, that's not going to make a big difference.
+
+[44:42] If you're blending smaller quantities, that could make a difference. I would suggest in general investing in the small size pitcher to go with it in case you're gonna do a lot of work with hydrocolloids and situations where you're gonna be blending 200, 300, 400, 500 milliliters of product at a time. So I would what if if it was my life, right? What I would want is I would want the new style pitcher and a small pitcher. Now, to the units themselves, I do not like the knobs and switches on the Vitamix 750 as opposed to the old school Vitapep.
+
+[45:14] The old school Vitapep uh like switches, this little flap switches, feel awesome to me. The newer ones are a little thicker, and they maybe think they feel a little more robo, but as Tristan said about my favorite jigger, they feel a little more play school because the switches are a little bit bigger. And also the knob on the uh on the Vitamix on the home one is a round knob, and it doesn't have the the paddle interface, like the the old knob has a flat thing on it that you can spin. And um in my mind, no one has ever equaled the awesomeness of using the interface controls of the Vitapep. Uh but uh so sorry that I couldn't be more helpful on uh on that because there's pros and cons for each of them, and I'm sorry.
+
+[45:57] Uh uh go uh my apologies again go out uh to uh stand below. We will I promise on eight stacks of bibles, I will answer your questions next time. Cooking issues.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[46:34] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by TechServe, New York's original and still the best Apple computer, iPod, and iPhone store and repair shop. For more information, visit TechServe.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nasha? Good. And we got Joe in the engineering room.
+
+[1:11] Still no Jack. Did he die? Or is he just in Puerto Rico? Still in Puerto Rico, but it's like, was he planning on being there this long? Or is he dead?
+
+[1:17] Or has he just decided to move there? I think he's actually he's back from Puerto Rico. Just hates us. Uh you're gonna have to talk with talk with him about that. So, uh so actually, you know, today, uh, Nastasha is like my per this is my perfect kind of weather.
+
+[1:32] It's freaking awesome. This is New York, late fall, at its best, uniformly overcast. There's not one ray of sun touching my disgusting white body, burning me to death. Like my nemesis and evil nemes is the sun and today is the most fertile day of the year, actually. What does that mean, fertile?
+
+[1:49] Most people uh have sex and get pregnant today. Really? Wow. Well, unrelated to me being so happy about the studio is a great day. It is a great day.
+
+[1:59] So apparently it's a great day for a lot of people. A lot of people getting busy, getting lucky today. Uh but also, Nastasha, what I and I think maybe this is part of it, uh, although not historically, who knows? Is it it's it's exactly the right temperature. If it was like three degrees colder, you could see your breath outside.
+
+[2:15] And if it was three degrees warmer, the crazies would come out. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there are no crazies on the street. And not to mention, for those of you that are gonna visit uh Roberta's uh pizzeria and hate hipsters as much as Nastasha does.
+
+[2:27] There's a secret back way to Roberta's. You don't come with like it from the Williamsburg direction or from the L train direction, which is like hipster train. You come from the J Chain direction down from Flushing Avenue, and you pass not one hipster in the entire walk. Either that or hipsters are like crazy people, and they just don't come out when it gets a little bit nippy. Is it because it's doesn't take that much energy to be crazy, and usually crazies just outside being crazy, and so they get cold because like we're when we're outside, we're moving around.
+
+[2:59] You'd have to shoot me to get me to just stand outside and do nothing. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. Interesting phenomenon, the crazies.
+
+[3:05] The craziest in the temperature. Anyway, beautiful fall day. Uh calling your questions live to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. We're gonna answer uh Stan Below's question from uh a million years ago that we keep on forgetting to answer.
+
+[3:17] And here we go. Uh enjoy the show on podcast only, as I'm in France. A great way to gain knowledge on cooking, good fun to listen to, and uh funky in a good way, choice of music. Although now, you know, we have the user submissive uh submitted music, and so we have two different styles, which I which I thoroughly enjoy. You like that stuff, Restos?
+
+[3:32] It's good business. Um, I would appreciate your answering uh a question. Uh I'd like to create a small appetizer, maybe two bites. The idea is to take two medium prawns and flash cook them so they stay juicy and remove the shell and pair them with two contrasting textures. I'd like to pair one prawn with an ultra-light, very brittle meringue, in quotes, and the other one with a very chewy uh gummy bear, also in quotes.
+
+[3:53] Uh for the meringue, one egg white whip to which we add lemon juice or another flavorful water, uh water fl based flavor, I'm assuming, uh, until very light, then stabilize with sugar or another hydrocolloid. Of course, the hydrocolic can be pre-mixed in the flavored water first. Then put it in the oven to dry up. I could not find any indications on stabilizing egg whites in your hydrocolide primer. Any suggestions for that?
+
+[4:12] Sugar could work, but not sure of the resulting taste with prawns or a savory dish. Okay. So let's go into that before we go into the gummy bear. So, yeah, yeah, sugar makes uh the egg white denser and gives it structure for for when it's uh drying up. But as you say, sugar is sweet, so you don't want to add uh uh a lot of sugar.
+
+[4:30] You could use a different, especially if you're gonna do uh like uh you know a cooked meringue where you cook the sugar beforehand and beat it in, cook so that it's already stays cooked and then you dry it out. Uh you could use a less sweet sugar like uh isomalt, uh, but it will still be somewhat sweet. There are other, you know, completely non-sweet things that have the uh properties of sugar you could add, or you could do what I would do, which is go in an entirely different direction, and use methylcellulose. If you use methylcellulose F like Frank, F50, right? You can take whatever flavor uh base you want.
+
+[5:05] If it doesn't have any uh sort of substance to it, you're gonna need to add some uh bulking agent, like a maltodextrin or something uh that is going to provide some structure to it. So, you know, like i if there's no protein in it, if there's no pectin, if there's no anything, you're gonna need some structure. Then you add methylcel F50, anywhere between about uh 0.75 uh and uh up to, but don't go over 1% of methylcel F uh F like Frank 50. And you uh add it uh in a blender uh um while it's mixing high speed so it doesn't clump up, and then if you want, if it doesn't work, you go you know if you're worried about it not working, you can let it sit and hydrate for a while. Might not work in a milk base, you might not want to do in milk base, but then you just whip it in a kitchen aid with a with a with a uh balloon whisk.
+
+[5:50] It'll it'll whip up like egg whites, and you can pipe it into any shape you want, and then you can uh dehydrate it in a dehydrator or in a low oven, and um and they're crisp, uh they're great. Uh they you can make anything with any flavor. You could go dead savory, you could go sweet, uh, and it doesn't have any of the residual protein stuff that's left, so it's very, very light and airy. The less methellulose you use, the larger the bubbles will be, and the more airy it will be. But I tend to like in the area of about 0.9% or nine grams per uh liter of your product.
+
+[6:23] Now, listen, here's the important thing. Methylcellulose has uh trouble uh in that if you leave a methyl cellulose meringue out for a long time, it's gonna absorb moisture and lose its crunch. So you're gonna want to keep it either in a if you're gonna use a dehydrator, and I'm I apologize, this is the one thing I know in Fahrenheit because my dehydrator only works in Fahrenheit. You want to dehydrate at around uh 135 to 100 135 degrees Fahrenheit, uh, but you're gonna want to store it at like 112, 110, 120 in uh 20 lower, much lower than 135, because if you store it at that high temperature, if you cook for a long time, I'm talking like a day or two, uh, to hold it, it's going to start tasting cooked. Now, it you need to keep it in a dehydrator when you're getting ready for service because it's gonna absorb moisture, or you can package it along with a desiccant, which is a silica gel that a lot of pastry people get, and you just package it in a container with the desiccant.
+
+[7:18] The desiccant will remove all the moisture and keep it crunchy. But that's what I would do if I was wanted a meringue that was totally stable because it doesn't require very much thinking or very much tweaking, and it it works all the time, and I like it. Uh, okay, now for the gummy bear, I wanted to uh grind some uh grind some sage up fine along with tarragon or other herb, add ground star anise or something like that, and just a bit of water with high acyl gel-in and/or iota carrageenin. Now remember, well, I'll finish. Once gel, the gum would be cut in a few one by one by one centimeter cubes to be eaten whole with the prawn.
+
+[7:50] Any advice on how to use the herb so that the gummy bear uh really packs a punch of flavor. Which hydrocolide should I use? Any problems with flavor release, temperature, or acidity to think about. Okay, so here's here's the deal. So uh high there's two kinds of gel an uh for those of you that don't and gel an is one of these gelling agents, newer age gelling agents.
+
+[8:07] It's a micro, it's natural, but it's you know derived uh from microbial fermentation. There's high acyl gel an and low acyl gel in. Low acyl gel an is brittle like agar, and it uh and it well it's brittle. There you have it. Uh uh high acyl gel an is very elastic.
+
+[8:23] I do not enjoy uh straight up high acyl gel an preparations because they're extremely rubbery. They don't really uh imitate um, they don't really imitate gummy bears. Uh oh, and the other one you mentioned, iota caragenin, also, so iota carrageenin, kappa carragen, two most common carrageenans people use kappa brittle, like agar. In fact, it's very closely related to agar and iota, which is elastic and stretchy. Also, I mean iota, typically, when you're using it, you're using it in low concentrations for things like puddings because it allows you to uh shear it and then have it reset up into a gel.
+
+[8:58] That's a kind of its unique property, along with uh reacting uh very nicely with milk. But neither of those two things alone are gonna impart a real uh gummy bear texture. Why not just use gelatin? Gelatin is amazing, has great flavor release. Uh, and you know, there's a lot of recipes out there for you know how to do a high gelatin preparations for real gummy bear.
+
+[9:17] Because remember, the hallmark of a gummy, you like gummy bears, right, Sus? Uh-huh. A real Hallmark, a gum, uh they should be hard, right? They're hard. What do you mean?
+
+[9:24] They're physically, you have to bite into them. They don't just break apart like a marshmallow. You don't like marshmallows. Is it you that doesn't like marshmallows? Or just doesn't care about that.
+
+[9:32] I don't like. You like jet puffed? Yeah. Storebout marshmallows. What is it you don't like about the hand-made marshmallows again?
+
+[9:36] I forget. Is it the idea or is there something about the texture? The sound of the scissors cutting it. What if it was cut in a different room? You think about the scissors, and then you're like, I can't enjoy this because I know that at some point it was cut with a scissor.
+
+[9:47] Wow. All right. All right. Not gonna, I'm just gonna let that one stay. Um so uh the properties of a gummy bear that you're trying to get at with a gummy are uh that they are uh cohesive, elastic, and hard.
+
+[10:02] Okay. Uh and if you look on pat there's a patent out right now of someone using a mixture of gel-an and carrageenin, but not uh, I believe they're using low acel, the brittle one. So the gel an is there to provide the hardness, and you can use gel and a fairly low proportions. This is only if you want to do a vegetarian gummy. Otherwise, I would just use gelatin.
+
+[10:19] Uh you know, gel an is going to provide the hardness, and the iota is gonna provide, or they don't use iota, they use a mixture of iota and um and I believe new, which is a you know there's a billion different, not a billion, like eight, different carrageenins, but the you know, new is one of the ones that we don't really use much. But they in the patent literature, and you can look at it, it. It is the inventors are Andrew J. Grizzella and Neil Argo Morrison on a gelatin-free gummy confection comprising the combination of gel and gum and new carrageenin and/or a new iota carrageenan blend. So uh the gel-in is there for the hardness and the iota is there for the elastic uh elasticity and the cohesiveness, and the recipe is actually there in the patent, so you can go look at it, which is a uh a good thing to do.
+
+[10:58] But I recommend just using gelatin, unless you don't want a gummy bear. Now you're in France, a lot of people like you know the pectin texture, in which case just go high pectin. Nothing like in terms of very good flavor release and high concentrations, gelatin and pectin are the way to go. Gel an is good, but in high concentrations can get kind of weird. Um, and uh I've never done a super high concentration of like a high is a low azile mix to try and imitate gelatin.
+
+[11:22] But anyone out there with some advice, eh, we'll take it, right? We'll take it. Okay. Uh so I apologize for not answering that question for so long, right? Right.
+
+[11:31] Actually, uh Stan had a really interesting idea that we've never done about uh roto vaps. Stan was saying uh so different uh different flavors, right, have different kind of uh solubilities in different mediums like alcohol or oil or blah blah blah, right? So typically when we rotovap something, we rotovap the entire product to try and get as much flavor out of it as humanly possible, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[11:51] So what but what he's saying is why not have you ever tried uh, for instance, doing an oil extraction uh of uh of something or an alcohol extraction versus a water extraction, and then rotovap those extractions without the product in it to try and separate different aspects of the flavor. Nope. Good idea though. You could try it, right? Uh okay.
+
+[12:11] Uh Mike writes in about lemongrass. Happy holidays to everyone in cooking issues. Oh, that's right. Is next week our last one before the holidays? Really?
+
+[12:18] Mm-hmm. So next week is hol and by the way, for me, holiday means Christmas. So next week is the Christmas edition of Cooking Issues. Call in all of your, you know, Christmas-related or holiday or are we gonna do one between Christmas and New Year's? I know because I think New Year's falls on the day of the next one after Christmas.
+
+[12:37] Oh, it's on Tuesday? So next week, your last chance for two weeks, right? Is Christmas on a Tuesday? Yeah, uh, yeah. Something like that?
+
+[12:44] Yeah. I just don't know anything. I can't believe the freaking year's over. I know. My God.
+
+[12:49] By the way, we're doing our uh holiday thing for the they the there's a holiday, what do you call them? Like an ice cream social but without ice cream today for the Booker and Dax the Equipment Company and Booker and Dax the bar are gonna meet to ice skate in uh at the Bryan Park. Should be fun, right? Mm-hmm. Nastash's like, no, it's not gonna be fun.
+
+[13:07] But you like ice skating. I do. I just don't like I just don't like it. Joe doesn't like getting together with people. Those people, oh, how I hate people.
+
+[13:17] I'm just not gonna. You've been pestering me about having a company Christmas party. No, I'm actually getting that like a Christmas party where you drink. Oh I'm sure the bartenders are gonna show up. They will bring liquor.
+
+[13:27] I highly doubt it. They'll already be wasted and start skipping. I told Tristan to bring some hot drinks. I think it's alcohol, uh, it's uh illegal. Oh, okay.
+
+[13:36] Well, yes. Yes, it's technically illegal. Okay, sorry. But we're doing Mike with his lemongrass. Hello, have you happy holidays, which is how we got into this nonsense.
+
+[13:43] Happy holidays to everyone at cooking issues. I hate mincing lemongrass by hand, and who doesn't? Nastasha hates lemongrass. Guess why? Guess why, people?
+
+[13:50] You can't because you're not here with me. Because it grew in her backyard, and it goes back to her hatred of everything from her childhood. Well, why do you hate that? Yeah, I I used to like like play with it and smell it, and like it's now I feel nauseated when I think about it. Nastasha, what I love about her is that she properly uses nauseated instead of you get very angry.
+
+[14:11] I do get angry about that one. But the but like, but it's true or false? You hate you like everyone else. You know what I used to play with 'cause we didn't have that stuff. Because I lived you know in the East Coast here.
+
+[14:24] What? Joycey? Yeah, you know, you know sewage. Kinda onion grass. I used to rip up onion grass and smell the onion grass constantly all the time.
+
+[14:33] But I still love myself some onions. Anyway, whatever. Uh Mike hates mixing mincing lemongrass by hand. A few cookbooks recommend against using a food processor given that the blades create friction uh and therefore heat and that this damages the flavor of the lemongrass. Any thoughts on this given that lemongrass is gonna be heated at a later point?
+
+[14:52] Should this even matter to me, thanks, Mike. I do not think that should matter to you, Mike. I think that's a lord of a load of horse hockey. I I uh look, I'm willing to I'm willing to have my butt handed to me on this one, but uh I don't think it's a problem. I think like the reason I wouldn't use it is that food processor isn't that good at breaking up lemongrass properly and I detest the long uh uh like d uh I'm sure Nastasha hates this even more than I do, is the long fibrey craps from an in inappropriately processed lemongrass, right?
+
+[15:21] Yeah. So I mean like if you mince it by hand across you know, acrossways, you're guaranteed to not have any long fibers, which is good. Um so I mean I think it's less about the friction or the heat, especially if you're gonna heat it later and 'cause there's not that much heat in a typical food processor. Now you can get a good bit of heat in a vita prep or something like that. But I think it's more about the uh about the length of the fibers and you don't want any long, nasty fibers.
+
+[15:44] But I detest the texture of um kind of cellulosic f and you know, lignified fibers in my food. You know, unless I'm chewing on sugar cane and then I chew on it for some reason 'cause I have a mental problem until my gums bleed. You ever do that? Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible, right?
+
+[15:59] It's horrible. Which is why instead of using sugar cane in a drink, consider saving the cores from pineapples and vacuum infusing some sugar into the core of a pineapple and using that instead of the typical sugar cane garnish. I need to get our sugar cane press back out to use it the pu though, they'll never do it at the bar. But that'd be awesome. I do like sugar cane drinks.
+
+[16:20] Mm-hmm. Like fresh sugar cane juice? Mm-hmm. What's so I forget the word for it in uh Portuguese. But I love that stuff.
+
+[16:25] Well, they look for it eventually. Eventually, we'll do it someday. Someday. Anyway. So uh there you go, Mike.
+
+[16:31] And with that, uh Joe, should we take our first commercial break? Coming right back at you with more cooking issues. Man, Joe, your computer is so slow, I can't even use this thing. Yeah, I should probably get a new one. Do you have any suggestions?
+
+[17:47] Oh, totally, man. You should go to TechServe. Okay, what's so good about TechServe? Well, they've got this awesome new insider program that's free when you get a new Mac with Apple Care. So you should buy your computer there because you get 50% off data transfer, free loaner computers, front-of-the-line repair privileges, an annual Mac tune-up service, backup consultation and setup, seminars, and much more.
+
+[18:08] Okay, yeah, where's TechSurf? It's at uh 119 West 23rd Street in New York City. They're New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider. And you should totally check out TechServe.com for more information. Alright, that settles it.
+
+[18:20] I'm headed to TechSurf. Man, your computer just got called out. Your computer's busted. Your computer's a flying sack. Yeah, can you believe that was all improved?
+
+[18:32] And Joe has not made it over to TechServe yet, so his computer still is a steaming pile of uh of uh horsehop of uh you know poop. True. Are you you're allowed to say poop on the air, right? I think that there's no regulations against poop. Yeah.
+
+[18:46] I mean, even if we were on the real air, I think I could say poop. Anyway, uh Matt writes in about lemon juice. Here's a word I'm not gonna use on the uh on the air on the air. Uh listen, Matt, I'm gonna editorialize a little bit. Uh come up with a good word schmutz.
+
+[19:00] How about schmutz? Matt used a much, much worse, in fact, I think one of the worst words in the English language when you think about it. Right? Dave had to explain this word to me three years ago. Yeah.
+
+[19:12] Rhymes rhymes with Greg. And egg. I'm not gonna go into it. Anyway, uh Schmutz. Uh I just got done center fusing some lemon and lime juice.
+
+[19:22] I started with fresh juice, uh, juice treated with pectanex. I let it sit for a few hours and make a loose gel with agar. Uh then I broke the gel up and spun it at 4,000 RPM, uh, which I'm assuming if you use a similar centrifuge to mine is also roughly 4,000 uh G's. Uh the lime turned out perfect, but the lemon had a scum. There you go, scum's good one.
+
+[19:40] Floating on the surface. Though I was able to remove it with the coffee filter. See below. Uh the same thing happened with peach juice a few months back. From what I can see, it appears to be some kind of oil or grease.
+
+[19:49] The question is, what is that scum? And is there a way to avoid it? Thanks, Matt. Uh well, it depends. There's a couple things that can be floating on the top of the centerfuff.
+
+[19:56] First of all, uh I would recommend you change your um your the way that you do lemon and lime juice. You should lemon and lime juice, I would not sit with an agar. Uh Nastasha's least fond memories uh are trying to spin agar gels in uh the centrifuge. Are these your least fond? Never want to do it.
+
+[20:14] What do you hate more than that? What's the worst? That or you did like grapefruit. How many tons of grapefruit? I don't know, for that for the Oh my god, it was horrible.
+
+[20:20] But no, but what was your least favorite? Is that your least favorite task? Yeah. Yeah. Really?
+
+[20:25] Of all? Uh let me think about it while you attend. Alright. Okay. So um, so anyway, that's not the way to do it.
+
+[20:31] Go uh buy Kiesel Sol, which is suspended silica uh salt from the um from the what's it called? Homebrew shop and chita san. Uh CH kitasan, uh, also from a homebrew shop. These are wine finding agents, right? Then you add two for every liter of lime juice or lemon juice, add two um two milliliters of the SPL, and also two milliliters be accurate of the Kiesel Sol.
+
+[20:56] Stir it, let it sit 15 minutes, add two milliliters of chitosan, stir, also be accurate, 15 minutes. Then uh two more milliliters cut uh Kiesel Salt again. Stir it up, spin it, you'll be good every time. That's just the that's the way to do uh lemon juice or lime juice. Uh that's what we do at the bar, and it never fails.
+
+[21:16] Uh okay, now to your other problem stuff floating on top. There are two things that can be going on. Sometimes you spin something that has some fat in it, uh, in which case it floats up to the top. Sometimes you s uh have some fat contaminating your buckets if you spin directly in the buckets as I do, in which case it floats on top. More often than not, what's floating on the top looks like fat but isn't, is a floated layer of stuff, and it could be broken up cell stuff, which is phospholize, but I doubt it.
+
+[21:44] I doubt it. It could be some fat. I doubt anyway. Air. So what happens is when you blend something, or when you stir it or whisk it, you get air bubbles.
+
+[21:52] And believe it or not, even under the force of 4,000 times the force of gravity, air bubbles don't necessarily pop. And so you have a layer of stuff floating at the top of uh of a lot of things after they spin, even if they don't have fat in them. And the way to get around that is to do a quick vacuum cycle to de-aerate the product before you spin it. And if you do that, uh pretty much you'll get crystal clear stuff on the top from the from the get-go. Certain things um are more apt to throw a thing on the top than others.
+
+[22:22] Tomatoes typically will have a layer floating on the top. Uh, if you vacuum them, they won't. Um certain things you can't get around it, like coconuts have a lot of fat in them. And so if you blend those and don't get the air out, you get a mat, a thick mat floating on the top, which actually tastes good. Tastes good.
+
+[22:37] Uh but anyway, so that is my uh that is my theory, and um that's that's what's going on. That's how to avoid it. Uh remember that where are we spinning that time that was crazy? Oh no, also when you're gonna put stuff in a roto vap, if you don't want it to boil over after you blend it, you you you put it in a vacuum machine, chamber vacuum machine, you dearate it. That's just you know, standard procedure, but a lot of people don't do it, and then when they run the rotovap for the first time, it sprays all over the inside of the machine.
+
+[23:01] Do you remember that time we had to deerate all of that uh was it the habanero that almost killed us when we were de-arated or was the horseradish? I think it was a horseradish. Oh my god, that sucked. Lots of horrible times. Every day with Dave is a horrible day.
+
+[23:16] Uh right? No. Pretty well, no, just most. Back then, when we did everything ourselves. We were in the school and we were working out of a trash room.
+
+[23:27] I mean like a hundred by a hundred square foot. And it was like a billion, it was a billion degree. Now, people, Nastasia Nastasia hates uh me for a number of reasons, but one that she detests more than any other is the fact that I am an insensate brute, and that my body doesn't care what kind of temperature it's put in. Whether you you could freeze me out, you could burn me, you could light my hands on fire. It just doesn't seem to bother me that much.
+
+[23:52] Uh and for some reason, uh this uh is in uh Nastash's playbook uh the hallmark of a poor uh a poor person, a low quality individual, uh as we like to say. Uh and uh I can I can't help it, things don't bother me. But that trash room averaged uh like a hundred and fifteen degrees because we were in the same room as the refrigeration units. I'm talking like all year, 115 degrees in that son of a gun. And here's the thing about me like I don't mind any temperature if I'm working, but if I'm sitting in a trash room sweating into a keyboard, I want to kill everybody.
+
+[24:29] Everybody, right? Yeah. I mean, I could be outside in that weather working if I was working, if I was doing something, or cooking in a million degree weather, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, you know, uh uh those were legitimate temperature readings, like 115.
+
+[24:43] Remember that? Oh, yeah. No, remember we like the when we got those new thermometers, we were like, come on. And then we like recalibrated them and we're like, no, it's really like it's 115 degrees in here. And let me tell you something.
+
+[24:56] It wasn't like 115 Arizona style, which is still piss hot. Because I've been to Arizona where they're like, hey, you know, 100 degrees is legitimately not that hot in Arizona. It really isn't. You can go outside in 100 degree weather and it's fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:09] Because it's so freaking dry. Because it's not the heat, it's the humidity. But listen, at 115 degrees, people, it is hot. Now in New York, it's 115 sweet humid degrees inside of that trash box. Man, that sucked.
+
+[25:24] Remember that? We're sitting there spinning agar gels, and I'm like, oh my god. Anyway, good times. Good times. And that was back, remember when but my favorite part about it was I remember there's someone who wrote an internet uh article back when we were still doing the blog.
+
+[25:38] We're gonna get that fixed again, right? Jerry, the Christmas break, yeah. Yeah, Christmas break. We can get that fixed again. Back when we were going full bore on the blog, uh, which we hope to again someday.
+
+[25:47] I'm gonna get Piper to write for it, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, when we were doing that, I had a guy say, Well, I don't have all of like the awesome resources that Dave has. And Nastasha and I read this, and we burst out, we burst out laughing, right?
+
+[26:02] We were laughing for like 20 minutes straight, 115 degree hot box with stuff. Everything is taped together with duct tape. Listen, I'm happy with I'm happy with everything we I'm I'm totally happy. So this is not like, oh, poor little you know what I mean? But well, like the fact of the matter is is that everything we own is held together with duct tape.
+
+[26:18] Alright? The phone was duct taped to the wall. The phone was duct taped to the wall. That's my goal. My New Year's resolution, peoples, is to not be the guy whose box is duct taped together when he shows up to the party.
+
+[26:31] You get a new box. Chip writes in about Calustians. Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. Well, crap on Jack because he doesn't like us anymore. He's not showing up to the sh just kidding.
+
+[26:41] I love Jack. Everyone loves Jack, right? Mm-hmm. Even though he insulted Joe's computer and I take Unbridge. Have you been to Calustian's recently?
+
+[26:49] Uh Calustians, by the way, for those of you that don't uh haven't been to New York, uh Calustian's is kind of a well-known and amazing kind of spice and ingredient shop. Um I guess it started out as having a lot of uh you know Indian and that kind of you know subcontinent style ingredients, um, and but now has just ingredients from everywhere all over the world. And chefs regularly make pilgrimages to Calustians to kind of just browse the aisles and see uh kind of what exists or what's something they haven't used before. And you can buy them in fairly small uh packages. A similar store for those of you it's on the it's in the 20s uh on Lexington Avenue here in in Manhattan.
+
+[27:27] There's uh another store uh called Dual Specialty Shop, which is dumb a name for no offense if anyone no one's ever listening. But the dual specialty shop is a really dumb name. It's over on First Avenue, I think, over downtown in the East Village, and they have um they're not as big, but they have a lot of interesting ingredients as well. So people go there uh searching for ingredients for bitters, for cooking, whatnot. Anyway, so that's what Calustian's is, um, and you know, great, great place.
+
+[27:52] Uh I went in for some spices and notice they have a large selection of modern ingredients. Uh, they are not listed in the website, so you have to actually go there to verify. Sorry. By the way, Calustian's website, one of the world's worst websites. It's a horrible website.
+
+[28:05] Horrible. No offense. Crap. It's crap. Horrible.
+
+[28:09] It's impossible to search for things on their website. Anyway, um, uh anyway, just a few that I remember them having are Kappa and Iota Carragain and Ultra Crisps, Ultra Crisp from National Starch Corporation. National Starch. I wish anyone would have a name as good as National Starch. National Starch.
+
+[28:25] Um Maltodextrum. Now, but the question is what kind? See, one of the problems with Calusteans is when they're bagging stuff like that, they don't necessarily write the provenance of the material on it. So you don't know exactly what it is. That's one of the issues.
+
+[28:37] Anyway. But there were probably two shelving units full of these ingredients. So it is nice if you're in a pinch. Most were in the one ounce or two-ounce bags. So good good tip.
+
+[28:47] I did know that, but I haven't mentioned it on air as a place you can walk in and get stuff. So it's good, good. I don't think dual specialty has those kind of ingredients, so you're gonna go to Calustians for that kind of thing. I also wanted to send you a picture of the turkey I did this year. I saw it.
+
+[29:00] You can't see it because you're listening on the radio, but it's a nice looking turkey. Mm-hmm. Right? Good to me. Anyway.
+
+[29:05] Uh in the smoker for about 2.5 hours. Wet her I like to mispronounce herb and call it herb. How does McGee say it? McGee? Yeah.
+
+[29:14] I think he says Herb. You think? Mm-hmm. Like Herb the guy. Whenever I say herb, I think herb like a like her Herbie.
+
+[29:22] By the way, Nastash and I sit. This is what we actually do for a living. We don't work on anything. We sit around and watch the YouTube of Hermie the Elf getting his butt handed to him by the lead elf over and over. Both the original version and the full metal uh jacket version.
+
+[29:36] Uh both of them. Uh it's an all-time look, rank and bass, it's crazy with all the weird, like pagan weirdness that goes on in the butt uh they gotta love those shows. Anyway, back to back to this. Uh uh, with uh in a smoker for about 2.5 hours, a wet herb rub under the skin. Uh there were only four of us, so it went with the traditional cooking method as well.
+
+[29:55] Thanks for the great podcast. Chip. Thank you, and thank you for your picture of your turkey. Right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[29:59] Turkeys. Okay. Uh we have some questions in from the Twitter. Ellenasa writes in three bone prime rib for Christmas, cooked off sous vide. And the question is off the bone?
+
+[30:10] Okay, off the bone? 55 C? Finish in a 550 oven for about 15, 20 minutes. Those are all questions. So here's the answer.
+
+[30:18] And uh that's actually like a compact uh Twitter question. Good. Compact Twitter question. Here's the thing. Uh if you're gonna do it typically, if you're gonna actually cook one, what you'll do is you'll uh cut it off the bone, sear around, and then some this is what some people do, then retie it back to the bone and cook it using the bone as a uh as a you know kind of an insulator protectant.
+
+[30:39] You don't need to do that if you're gonna do it sous vide. I I don't uh whether or not you pull the bone off is up to you, right? But typically, um you I I okay now here's where I'm gonna go against everything I've ever said. Just for easiness sake, I would bag the sucker and cook it to 55 uh 55 C. 55's a good number.
+
+[30:58] 55 C, 551, 552. Do nothing to it beforehand. Then this is where I'm gonna sound crazy. Just like bag it in a zippy with some oil, uh, cook it off to 55, let it cool down uh, you know, for quite a quite a while, actually, and then throw it into your super hot oven for longer than 15 to 20 minutes. I would do it until you get a nice, nice, super crisp crust.
+
+[31:20] You like prime rib rice does? Yeah. Stas, uh, what's your favorite part about prime rib? Um, it smells like home. Oh, okay.
+
+[31:27] Well, weird. Uh I was gonna say the crunchy outside parts that are overcooked along with the inside that's rare. So you don't want to skimp on producing those crunchy burnt fat things on the outside. So I would say do a 55, let it cool down for a minute, and then a little bit longer in the oven at the super high temperature. When I did my turkey this year, I had it in there for uh like an hour and a half in a pretty hot oven because I I but I had cooked it all the way through.
+
+[31:50] So I wouldn't be afraid of overcooking the outside in a traditional way because we love that stuff. The one the worst prime rib I ever did was when I cooked it sous vide all the way through and didn't finish enough on the outside and it was too uniform in the middle. It was a horrible nightmare. You see the way to call? Yes.
+
+[32:06] Caller, you're on the air. Hi, my name's Peter Bellastray. Um I live in Wisconsin, Milwaukee. I help run my family restaurant. And I just graduated from CIA about a year ago.
+
+[32:21] And I'm looking to go back to school for food science and wondering if you could make me like top five schools or just general advice on that. So, like we when you say food science, do you mean ac actual food science like a PhD, or do you mean just kind of new techniques for use in restaurant? I think combination of both. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. Most of the actual food science uh places are focused on more in industrial uh industrial applications.
+
+[32:52] And it's changing a little bit now, but the the the issue is is that there's very little money in worrying about problems that are only geared towards restaurants. In other words, to fund real scientific research. That's changing a little bit. I would look at the kind of research chefs association if you're interested in uh food science programs. I mean, uh I I don't know who's currently uh the best.
+
+[33:14] I mean, especially out where you are, I don't know what's currently the best. I mean, over here, I mean, obviously Rutgers has a good program in food science because it's near where a lot of the flavor houses are. Um, you know, there's um there's also uh um Cornell has an interesting food science program uh you know you might you might want to look at, but I don't really know who's the best feeder for that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously if you want to do wine or analogy, Davis, you know what I bet I I don't know kind of what the kind of programs that they have. The other thing is is that um, you know, if you do some work in that, like maybe get a master's, that's you you could then get a job being uh a a chef or doing research work at a at a flavor house.
+
+[33:53] We've just met, you know, uh a bunch of them and they're kind of an an interesting crew. Now from uh from a food from a food tech for restaurant stuff, I mean, obviously, you know, we we teach at the at the FCI, we teach uh low temperature sous vide work that's geared at chefs that's like two days in and out. It's not a food science class by any stretch. It's like uh low temperature sous vide. Chris Young is uh from Modernist Cuisine is starting up his program at uh Johnston Wales.
+
+[34:18] Um but and you know, Chris Chris Loss, who's at uh CIA is still doing some is doing some work with that too, but I don't know what kind of classes they offer. But it's all a question of what you're trying to do with it. Do you know what I mean? I don't know how much a food science uh program is gonna help in a restaurant unless you're just a lover of knowledge, in which case go for it. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:36] I mean, that's that's what gets me up in the morning is just l liking knowledge. So yeah, I mean, and that's kind of one of the reasons I want to go back. It's like I want to continue learning that, you know, and with everything I learned from school, now being able to go quiet to my my family restaurant. I just I kind of want to continue that. I'm only 23 and I feel like I wouldn't really like going to school here isn't better in my mind.
+
+[35:00] I I still want to travel and like see things and learn things, so that's that's a part of it is walk. Right. I mean, if if you get, you know, another thing you can do if you're interested in just like the the the restaurant side of it, you know, and this is what a lot of people I know do they go they work for someone in the US that they can get you know stodge basically for someone who is doing this kind of work right and then uh you know so you know Wiley or you know uh Grant or uh you know Paul Librant someone you know what I mean and then uh after a while of staging there they then get the recommendations to go work at like Noma or in Spain and then you know they make the the you know they'll they'll spend some while so that's you know Fabulous who's you know uh works with us for a long time that's what he you know he worked with us for a while then worked uh with Johnny Azzini uh back when he was a John George for a long time and then you know spent a long time staging at Noma and other places and traveled the world and has picked up um you know if you're if you're young and if you can you know if you can do it if you can live that lifestyle is a good way to to see what is current right now in kitchen. But you have to be willing to put your time in in each one of the kitchens for that. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[36:16] Yeah yeah definitely but it sounds like you're and I mean I guess that's kind of a fact I've been I mean I knew already but I think I've been kind of making to myself that it isn't um but thank you this is very helpful. And by the way that last depidation you're showing is very smart. Like if you if you even think that you don't want to do that then don't send yourself down that road. Do you know what I'm saying? Because if you send yourself down that road and you and it starts you start feeling like you know, this wasn't the right move.
+
+[36:49] They it's a it's a long road to be halfway down and find out that it wasn't the road you wanted to be on. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Whereas you know, if you're gonna go take a program in a school like food science, you're learning all the time and it's not the same it's not the same sort I don't think you'll feel the same sort of sense of crap if it's not the road you want to go down. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[37:12] Right, right. Yeah. And I guess I guess that's what I still need to decide. Right, cool. Well, uh well, good luck and I hope everything works out for you.
+
+[37:21] All right, thank you very much. No problem. Um, so uh at at Clef's, I don't know at Clef's name because at Clef's name is written in um Japanese characters that I don't understand on his on his or her I don't know Twitter feed. Uh but you know, uh one of our Twitter buddies. Um can melatonin be used as an antioxidant in food.
+
+[37:46] Does it have any advantages? So melatonin uh is you know uh a hormone that I guess is made in the in the pineal gland, and uh it you know, it's regulates uh sleep patterns and a bunch of other things. It's a powerful also antioxidant. Uh and it's sold as a dietary supplement here in the US, um, but it's not there's a strange rule in the US, and uh and here it is. It's that if I s I like the rules for selling you something that you put into your body as a dietary supplement are a lot less stringent than the rules uh governing uh what you put into food.
+
+[38:23] And it like everything is everything is completely back buttword on this kind of stuff. For instance, also like it's like the same thing where uh well, not the same, but the irritating the way regulations work, you know, usually and isousionol, which is clove oil, uh is considered safe to eat, but is not approved to use as a fish anesthetic. That's the dumbest thing in the world. So when we use it, we have to say that's a spice. Dumb.
+
+[38:48] Anyway, but uh the other side, and actually can be crazy, is that things that aren't on the G RAS, i.e. generally regarded as safe, which is the main list of things, can be used as dietary supplements. So you can buy melatonin as a uh dietary supplement. And you could grind it up and add it to a beverage, but uh there was uh uh uh an energy drink manufacturer who was making a relaxation blah blah blah that added doped it with melatonin, not just things that contained melatonin, but doped it with melatonin, and they got a warning letter uh saying that you know, um you you shouldn't do that. It was uh the company was innovative beverage, uh and they were had these relaxation drinks that had melatonin, and it's not approved as a food additive.
+
+[39:30] That that said, I mean, I don't see why technically it wouldn't work. I don't know what the stuff tastes like. Have you ever taken a no mean no? I've never taken it. I mean, the other thing is i you know, one one thing to do, and I uh I don't have time to I didn't have time to do it before now, but like you could just buy some melatonin, grind it up, and add it to some stuff that usually turns nasty, like apple juice, and see whether or not it keeps the apple juice uh from you know turning.
+
+[39:56] But be aware that even though melatonin is passed fairly quickly in the by the liver, uh according to what I read, it's like a one pass through the liver and it's out. Uh you might make people sleepy. Sleepy time, right? Because it's supposed to be the relaxation thing. So if you want people, you know, passing out at your restaurant table, you know, anyway.
+
+[40:14] So that's my that's my thing. But I but I do not I do not know, and I and I cannot uh what's the word? Uh advocate. Uh okay. So uh a couple things that uh I'm uh working on now.
+
+[40:27] Uh I sent out a Twitter question, uh, where can we get pig bladders? Because Piper saw uh Chef at Danielle use pig bladder. Pig bladder, uh, and this I started thinking about it again because we got a question, I don't know, about a month ago or a couple weeks ago about um not using plastic bags for sous vide work. And so I was interested because there's an old kind of natural en papillot technique where you use a pig bladder to um to to hold things in while you cook them. And so I was wondering whether or not you could use a pig bladder to do some kind of rudimentary low temp work.
+
+[41:01] Um, the I mean the problem obviously is that pig bladders uh unlike plastic bags are semi-permeable, i.e., things can travel in and in and out of it. In fact, the whole notion of a semi-permeable membrane was discovered with uh pig bladders by a guy named uh uh you know Jean-Antoine Noyet, who's a physicist in this in the 1700s, and uh he you know he was the person who noticed um that uh pig bladders slowly pass things in and out, and there was other experiments afterwards that showed that certain uh things can migrate across pig bladder. So the question is if you were gonna cook for long short periods of time, I think you could probably cook in a pig bladder without too much uh flavor crossing back and forth or too much loss or too much kind of uh the fact that it's poaching, because the numbers that I read um were that the the transfer rate across pig bladder membranes is fairly slow. You could also probably coat the pig bladder in something that would reduce the permeability even more, like zane or something like that, but then it wouldn't, you know, then that's kind of a pain in the butt. But um I found a couple sources for pig bladders on the internets, uh, thanks to uh the folks on Twitter.
+
+[42:10] We have two different sources of it that uh sent in. So we're gonna get ourselves some pig bladders, probably not before new year, and we're gonna do some low temperature uh pay bladder work. How's that sound? Sounds good. Sounds good.
+
+[42:20] And uh lastly, I'll leave with this. Uh we're we uh I'm gonna do some more lobster experiments. So for those of you that follow my lobster and the stash is like, oh crap, more lobster. But the last time I did lobster uh experiments, Stas, we uh I did I did it at my house, you didn't have to deal with it. Yeah.
+
+[42:35] Yeah, no, I know I'm not. Do you even like lobster? Yeah, it's okay. What's your favorite crustacean? Um I don't know.
+
+[42:43] You don't like crab, right? No. God damn it. Oh, ooh, didn't mean to curse. Crab is delicious.
+
+[42:50] Oh, oysters. Oysters, oysters, oysters that's not a crustacean. Oh. That's a mollusk. You like oysters more than clams?
+
+[42:57] Squid. Squid, also a mollusk. Hmm. Then none. Okay, no shrimp.
+
+[43:04] No crab. No. Lobster. No. If I have to a lobster roll.
+
+[43:09] Oh, Jesus. Okay, so uh, so anyway, so uh uh key uh keep you guys posted. Soft shell crab. It's good. Soft shell crab is delicious.
+
+[43:17] I don't know if I've mentioned this on soft shell crab, but uh I love me some soft shell crab. Do you ever prepare them? No. Do you know my favorite fact? I've told you this a million times.
+
+[43:25] My favorite fact about sockshell crabs? Because when you cut their eyes off, you have to cut their eyes off with along with their brain. They bread themselves. So you cut their eyes off, you pull up the little tab in the back, you rip the gills out, you put it down, you throw it in the breading, and they bread themselves. That is consideration.
+
+[43:42] That is a considerate food stuff. Yeah? Well, anyway, we'll uh we'll fill you in on my lobster test next time. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[44:04] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at Heritage Radio Network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[44:29] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:05] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig Brooklyn on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, except for next Tuesday and the Tuesday after that because this is our Christmas and New Year's episode. Uh here as usual with uh Nastasha Hammer Lopez, joined in the studio with uh at least temporarily Aaron from Heritage Radio. Jack and Joe. How you guys doing?
+
+[1:26] We're great. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, Jack, how was the how was the Puerto Rico? That was awesome.
+
+[1:30] Yeah, what do you do besides drinking and and eating? What do you eat? Uh what did I eat? I ate a lot of uh chicken and rice, obviously. But I went to Viecas, which was which was amazing.
+
+[1:41] What is that? It's an island off the eastern coast of Puerto Rico, which was it's mostly a wildlife refuge, and it was protected by the government up until 2003, and then it became open to tourists, so still not too many people have caught on. It's pretty remote and incredible. Is that the one where the other half of it's a shooting range? Uh Navy testing grounds, sort of.
+
+[2:00] Yeah. Bomb, yeah. So we've saved the wildlife on half of the island and then bombed them into oblivion on the other half? There was a hilarious sign that said no swimming in this area. Live explosives.
+
+[2:10] Nice. It's like okay. Well, you know, we used to have that over here for those of you that haven't visited our coast when I was a kid. It used to be uh they were still finding World War II munitions off the coast of Sandy uh what is it, Sandy Hook in uh New Jersey. Any uh New Jersey that's out there?
+
+[2:23] Know what I'm talking about? Yeah, there used to be all sorts of explosive stuff left over from World War II just sitting in the middle of the uh in the middle of the bay there uh because I guess they would drop them off the shifts when they were loading them. Nice. You know, quickly I had a I had a question. I almost called into cooking issues.
+
+[2:36] All the red wine I was served in Puerto Rico, right? Right. Was all served chilled. Like well, how chilled? Like pretty chill like white wine chilled.
+
+[2:45] Really? Yeah, and and it was across the board, everywhere we went. Was it hot was it hot as hell? No, not really. No.
+
+[2:51] Well, you know, the French typically serve uh red wine much colder than we like we have a habit in the U.S., you know, except at the like, you know, even at even at the higher levels of dining here in the U.S., we have a habit of serving our red wines a lot warmer than they would in, let's say, France or another other parts of Europe. And you know, certain red wines like the first couple times I went over there were actually very it was kind of difficult for me to get it uh accustomed to. Like for instance, over there, you know, Gigandas, they serve much, much colder in uh France than we would have here, so much so that I got an argument. Don't get an argument with a French waiter. It's not it's not gonna help you out any.
+
+[3:24] But um But yeah, I mean I wonder whether or not it's particular. I mean, you know, have you had like the red wine in France and thought it was too cold? Or no, yeah, I have had red wine in France, and it was not like this. So this is just like a Puerto Rican thing. I think.
+
+[3:36] Was it overly tannic? Uh no. No, not necessarily. Was it enjoyable? It wasn't bad.
+
+[3:41] I just I I like my red's room temp. Yeah, I mean, I like it, you know. I like it on the coast. My wife likes it a little colder than I do, the red wine. Like, you know, she'll she'll pull a pull a Cesare and drop an ice cube in to kind of like you know, if it's at 'cause my house gets really freaking hot because I have the old uh, you know, the old radiator heaters that uh that make it like a million degrees in inside your house in the winter time, so you have to open the window.
+
+[4:02] You know what I'm talking about? Yes. Yeah, anyway. Sorry, we got a caller. Oh, got a caller?
+
+[4:07] All right, caller, you're on the air. Okay, hello, Dave. This is Nell from the Brooklyn Pharmacy. How are you? I'm doing all right.
+
+[4:14] Oh, good. I have a question for you. Shoot. Okay, I'm trying to make red velvet whoopee pies without using a ton of nasty red food coloring. And I've purchased online beet powder, which is a beautiful sort of vermilion fuchsia color.
+
+[4:34] But I'm trying to figure out how to boost the color in my in the my little whoopee pie cakes. I have what I read online was that um part of the reason they started calling them red velvet is because it was a chemical reaction between cocoa powder and an acid. So we have cocoa powder, and we're using natural rather than Dutch process. Um, and buttermilk. Hmm.
+
+[5:03] Well, I mean the yeah, the color of the Dutch process is actually because of the alkaline nature, right? The super dark thing is uh is uh a result of the alkali processing in in the dut in the Dutch process stuff. Yeah, yeah, so red I've never thought about it. The the beet powder doesn't add a flavor to it. No.
+
+[5:21] And how much chocolate how much chocolate do you have in it? Uh it ha like a cocoa, yeah. Yeah, it's a substantial amount, enough that you can taste it, but it's not it's not like a devil's food. It's not overwhelmingly chocolatey, but you can taste that there's cocoa in there, which I like. So I'm I kind of don't want to ease off the cocoa powder either.
+
+[5:41] And what's the liquid in it? Is it is buttermilk? Buttermilk, yeah. Right. And but there's soda in it, correct?
+
+[5:48] Yes. Uh and baking powder. Two two to one baking powder to soda. Right. I mean the recipe.
+
+[5:55] Typically for every cup of buttermilk or so, you're gonna have about a teaspoon of soda and then probably twice that of powder. Is that true or no? No, in this instance, it's a half teaspoon of soda and a teaspoon of powder. Per cup of buttermilk? Yes.
+
+[6:10] Yeah. Well, okay. Well, so here's what I mean, obviously the the soda is neutralizing the buttermilk. I mean, that's what that's what the whole soda buttermilk reaction is, right? But okay, right.
+
+[6:21] Right. So but beets, I'm assuming that beets, the more alkaline they go, I think beet beet coloring is an anthocyanin, like most of those other pigments like that. So the more acidic they are, the redder they are, right? This is why, you know, in uh in a in a pickled beet, they're so bright, bright red, right? Yeah.
+
+[6:39] Yeah. And then the more alkaline it's gonna go, the the more purple and more blue it's gonna shade. Now you're always because of the brown countershading of the powder, cocoa powder, you're always gonna stay on the redder side rather than the more blue and purple side. But I mean, I'm wondering whether or not you're shading it. I wonder whether or not you're shading it more towards the um more towards the alkaline, but that ratio that shouldn't do it too much because typically you're adding a lot more soda than that.
+
+[7:08] Me t uh typical ratio in like a pancake batter would be like a teaspoon of soda per per uh per cup of butternil. Right. So, you know, and that that you know, I've usually, although I've never done the experiments, taking that as a fairly, you know, like you know, one-to-one kind of swap. Now, um, you know, on the other hand, it's like you know, if you have a lot of residual acid left over from the buttermilk, it can taste weird, you know. You're you're unused to actually drinking buttermilk uh uh straight, but I'm wondering whether any residual acid wouldn't I don't have to think about it.
+
+[7:39] Like it be you've tried adding some extra acid to it to see whether or not just it whether it shades up or down or no. No, but I I was thinking the next thing I might do is is add a touch of vinegar. Just a little tiny bit, like not enough to flavor it, but perhaps enough to boost the acidity a tiny bit. Right. I mean vinegar i obviously is uh is um what's the word I'm looking for?
+
+[8:02] It's volatile. So you know some of that's gonna uh volatilize off during the during the the the bake. Of course, I don't know, you know, I don't know, you know, when the when the business is done. I mean, like typically anthocyanins, when you mess with them, you can shift their color even after they've been uh uh messed with quite quite substantially. Also, I am not sure.
+
+[8:20] I mean, obviously beets retain their color when they're cooked. So yeah. So we just want to like you just want to keep it on the on the acid acidic side. I've never actually made the red velvet uh per like actual instructions. It takes a boatload of color, they put a a whole boatload of red in that.
+
+[8:35] Oh, it takes so much. It's really yeah. Yeah. It does. Yeah, I mean I was well, that was how I re read something online.
+
+[8:43] That was how they it came about. Is it was a means by which they could show um extracts from food coloring. Right. Right. So you were meant to, you know, I think the original recipe, you can find this online somewhere.
+
+[8:56] You were meant to dump an entire bottle of red food coloring into the tape to make it red. That's great. That's great salesmanship right there. That's you know. Uh yeah.
+
+[9:05] You know, it's like you know, when you enter contest, it's all about you know how many boxes of rice crispies can you dump into a recipe, you win, you know. If your recipe requires thirteen boxes of rice crispies, then you've won. Um But if I was if I was gonna do this, uh I would A, I would test, I would make uh regular vanilla cakes flavored with beet powder, not even vanilla, just like white cakes, flavored with uh or or uh with the addition of the beet powder. I would probably do three different ratios and then uh you know, for for flavor to see where you are, then take the the highest one that you could do without a major flavor impact, uh, and then I would push the acid uh over three. So I would bake probably a total of six cake uh cakes in a in a white cake recipe.
+
+[9:47] Like small, like you don't have to bake a whole batch, you know what I mean? Like in fact, you could make one batter and then you know, do you know three at a time and do a small test. And then uh and then uh uh uh on the basis of those results, you know, try try to do one that's a that you think is gonna be way too little, one that you think is gonna be way too much, and one that you think is somewhere in the middle, and then usually within a couple of iterations of recipes like that, you can hone in on exactly where the magic uh number is, which is a technique that we use when we're testing out low temperature cooking recipes the same way. We you know, we try to make sure that oh that one's too weak, and oh that one's too strong. Once you once you establish the the boundaries, then you can hone in very, very, very quickly.
+
+[10:27] It's just like that old game of uh uh what's that game called, Nastash, where you have to guess a number and you have to guess you guess higher and then lower. Is there a name for it? I don't know. Anyway, but no, it's it's like a yeah, a county fair game where you count, you know, you can't guess the number of beans in the jar. Right, right.
+
+[10:40] Or but you but you're you you know you try you want to go in the in the least number of steps. So you want to make sure that you that you go too high, too low, then you cut that in the middle and find out where that is, and then you you keep you keep going. And and it usually you can get very accurate uh you know results on one or two variables within about three or four tests. Do you know what I mean? Okay.
+
+[11:00] Assuming they're normal variables and it's not like some strange hydrocolid interaction. Um but I'd be curious. Tweet at cooking issues and tell let us know uh what happened, because I'm I'm curious about the results of the of the beat test. Okay, all right. All right, thank you.
+
+[11:14] Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Have a good one. You two, good luck. I think the game's called Guess the Number.
+
+[11:22] Oh, you know, Jack Jack always likes you know, is the the the backhand the backhand slap. He's just mad at me about the cold wine. Coal wine. Okay. Did you you didn't have any good pork over there?
+
+[11:32] Don't they don't all yeah, of course. Do they do the zinc cook pork there, or is that a Jamaican thing? I think that's a Jamaican thing. But they're like these beachside shack things, and we had a bunch of crispy pork skins. What do you what do you call it?
+
+[11:43] Why am I forgetting? Chicharone? Yeah, thank you. Chicharron. Well, how do they do it there?
+
+[11:46] Do they do it hyper crispy or fatty, fatty crispy? Pretty fatty crispy. Yeah, I like that. I like them all. I like there's no there's no real kind of kind of any sort of crispity, crunchity pork skin product that I find objectionable.
+
+[11:58] I kind of unless they're you know poorly done. Uh but there is delicious. All right. Well, welcome back, Jack. Thanks.
+
+[12:03] What are you doing for uh what are you doing for the holidays here? I'll be sticking around here, not too much. Yeah, what about you, Nastasha? Uh I'm going home for three days. To home home is not.
+
+[12:12] See, that's the thing. Like at what point in your life are is home New York? Yeah, I know. To the place that I grew up. Ah, yes.
+
+[12:19] Yes. All right. Okay. Uh we have some questions in. Uh this was actually to Nastasha.
+
+[12:25] Christine doesn't care what we think by what I think. But anyway, she says, uh, how's it going? Uh this is uh an email I guess sent to actually to Aaron, right? Yeah. I'm hoping to get some advice from Dave as a Christmas present for my husband because uh apparently I'm an influence on him, which is, you know, I'm sorry.
+
+[12:39] I'm sorry, Christine. Uh anyway, uh Ryan has my 27-year-old husband, has been a musician and teacher for the past ten years. But food has always been a big part of his life, and he's recently realized that it's a passion he wants to pursue. He's been tearing through days podcasts, learning and experimenting with local and regional cuisine. We live in Singapore and volunteering at soup kitchens to try out his chops.
+
+[12:58] I've really always wanted to go to Singapore. Yeah. Singapore here has like amazing. Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[13:04] I mean, Singapore uh apparently has like, you know, obviously has like great uh you know street food. Like apparently it's amazing. And apparently very, you know, easy to visit so long as you don't uh spit gum on the street, in which case you're gonna get whipped with a uh with a you know whip dipped in horse urine. Anyway, uh he has endless resources, but the biggest question on his mind right now is whether or not to go to culinary school. We might be heading to Sydney in six months, and the most respectable, uh most reputable school he's found there is Lacordum Blue.
+
+[13:30] And I don't know anything, by the way, about uh Lacordum Blue in uh in Australia, right? So I don't even know whether it's run by the same people or whether it's licensed out or anything like that. Just you know, word, I don't know. Although we have some Australian uh we know, I don't know if we still do. We had some Australian listeners.
+
+[13:46] Maybe they can tweet into cooking issues and see you know see what they what they think about that school and and how it is. Anyway, uh while he's still trying to find his niche, he really enjoys using molecular gastronomy techniques and is partial to comfort diner t uh type food. Now listen, uh Christine, you know, I don't know, you probably don't, but yeah, like for all you out there, you know I dislike the word molecular gastronomy in intensely. Just like I know what you mean, though. I know what you mean.
+
+[14:08] I know what you mean when you say molecular. She's just like, answer my freaking question. I'm not into this stuff. Stop at the assay. Yeah, she's like, I don't really care.
+
+[14:14] My husband wants to know, I don't really care. Right? Yes. This is the equivalent of like my wife asking this question. Yeah, my presence.
+
+[14:23] Oh, geez, Sas. Stas loves to give it to me, I tell you what. Anyway. Uh wait, okay. Okay.
+
+[14:29] The biggest question is whether or not to go to culinary school. Okay, let's let's let's just handle that right now. So uh your husband is a uh a musician and a teacher. Now, uh here I don't again, I don't know how it works in uh in Australia, but here in uh here in the US, there's a you know, obviously I you know taught at a culinary school for many years, uh specifically technology at the French Culinary Institute, now the International Uh Culinary Center. Uh, and many of my good friends uh and relatives and you know business partners like Dave Chang and and Wiley Dufrein actually went to that school.
+
+[15:05] Uh and uh it's an argument that I get into uh constantly with chefs about whether or not you should go to culinary school. Now there's a huge generation of chefs here that say, no, you shouldn't go to culinary school because it costs a lot of money and you can just go work your ass off instead, right? And that that's the argument. And so, you know, and to which I always reply to them, yo, name someone in your generation, and by your generation I mean between 35 and 45, right? Name someone in that generation that's you know made a uh a huge name for themselves here in the U.S.
+
+[15:43] who didn't go to culinary school. And the f the fact of the matter is that almost all of them did. Right? Almost all of them in that generation did. Uh now, uh just take that, take that that where it is.
+
+[15:55] So there's a huge group of chefs who have gone anti-culinary school mainly because of the giant price tag associated with it. So they assume that the price tag is just too high. And here's the truth. Like if you expect to go pay a huge amount of money and somehow make that back as a line cook, then you know, I don't know that that necessarily is money well spent unless your parents are gonna pay for a vocation that you're gonna have for the rest of your life. Right?
+
+[16:21] Would you say it's fair styles? The other issue I think that a lot of chefs here have uh in the US who are, you know, uh at the top top level, uh, you know, I'm not gonna name any names in this, but you know, you've spoken to a bunch of them, is that a lot of people coming out of culinary school now are going into it because of the c popularity that food has in the media these days. And so there's an expectation uh among uh this is not me talking, because this isn't it's not me talking, but you know, that there's an expectation uh among the younger generation or even among career changers who are going to culinary school that they're gonna go to culinary school, they're gonna come out, all of a sudden they're gonna be doing interesting work in a kitchen, and they're you know, or they'll get a TV show, or they'll get a this or they'll get a that, uh, when really most of the time it is a crazy, grueling, brutal job that, you know, uh nine times out of ten is it isn't glamorous. In fact, the glamour of it comes from, you know, just getting uh brutalized day in, day out with large amounts of work for very small remuneration. So uh that's the kind of argument I think that uh that you know, a certain group of chefs will make against cooking schools.
+
+[17:35] Uh but however I don't think they see the other side of it, which is there are a whole group of people, for instance, who might not necessarily want to be a line cook, want to be exposed to a professional cooking school for another reason. Maybe they want to own a restaurant without having to go through all this stuff and they have the money to start a restaurant, right? It's a valid reason to go to cooking school. Maybe uh my sister-in-law Miley, who now runs the Food Network magazine, uh, you know, decided to go to cooking school so that she could be a better um food journalist. And it certainly has, you know, served her in good stead.
+
+[18:08] She's had you know been nothing but, you know, going up since the moment she went, she was going up beforehand because she's an incredibly driven and talented person. But in other words, but the the school served her in good stead. So you just have to really analyze why it is you want to go to cooking school and what you hope to get out of it and go in there with your eyes wide open of what exactly you're paying for. Uh and I think that's the you know, that's the the the key to it. We think fair?
+
+[18:32] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh okay. Uh kind of a long-winded answer. But uh it's a qua it's an important question.
+
+[18:37] Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously my livelihood was based on cooking schools. And so when you go we like w if you take my course, for instance, on low temperature and sous-view cooking at at the cooking school, you know, I think that was worth it. I think that what I don't forget what we charged for it or what the school charged for it. I mean, it wasn't cheap, it was expensive, but we gave you a lot of value for it.
+
+[18:55] I mean, the other thing is, you know, uh the reason cooking school is so expensive isn't really that people are getting uh I mean th that I know of, people aren't getting astoundingly rich off of the cooking school per c it's that there's was a lot of bodies that have to be hired to to, you know, uh produce a lot of food that isn't necessarily getting sold at, you know, market rate. And you know, we gotta buy a whole boatload of chickens, and we gotta buy a whole boatload of you know, it's just uh it costs a lot to run it. It's not that uh cooking schools typically, with the exception of something like CIA, which is actually a dot EDU, are typically uh for profit, but that doesn't mean that they are rapacious, right? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[19:33] Uh other questions uh include uh is there such a thing as too old to become a chef? Uh hey, let's hold real quick. We have a caller. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Josh.
+
+[19:46] Uh, there's actually two of us here. We're calling to settle a dispute. Maybe you can help us. Uh oh, okay. Um, so at your suggestion, we're now using the DMT sharpening stone.
+
+[19:56] Okay. I feel like it does okay for me. My buddy has a what's it, a glazed thing? Yeah. Right.
+
+[20:04] He feels like it gets sharp, but it doesn't stay sharp with this stone. What is there any beef to that? Or would you cause that? So, okay, so for the for those of you that uh don't know what the hell we're talking about, um the DMT is a diamond uh sharpening stone, and I use it uh you're using the interrupted uh red green. I'm sorry?
+
+[20:27] You're using the the two-sided red green with the interrupted pattern? Yes. Yeah. Okay, so we're talking about a f a fine slash extra fine, which doesn't really have much meaning, but you can go look up the equivalent micron values of the abrasives on it. Sharpening stone.
+
+[20:41] Uh and what I like about this particular stone is that it's extremely lightweight, it stays flat forever, doesn't need to be true, and it's just it in my mind, extremely easy to have and use. Uh so it's not not something that you have to like worry about and soak or like that's not really heavy in your kit. Uh doesn't you know, so it's very low maintenance, and I think does a good job. The question we have here is it someone is sharpening with it and s thinks that they can get the stuff sharper, doesn't necessarily stay sharp. The only way to really tell is the question is what were they sharpening on before?
+
+[21:14] Were they using like a Japanese, like a very, very fine grit Japanese water stone? What were you using? That's what we were using before. And my theory is that it gives like the illusion of sharpness by microcarating it more than actually owning the edge, much like a razor steel. Right.
+
+[21:32] So I mean this is the the big the big argument in sharpening is what do you what are you trying to trying to accomplish? Right. So for most rough and ready kitchen work, what you really are doing is not taking it to a super hyper fine polished grit. And there it are it's very sharp, but there are some kind of uh micro imperfections in the uh in the blade that help when you're cutting things like tomatoes. And so um, you know, there and so in fact you can have something that is uh that cuts very well, even that's not done uh sharp, you know, sharpened to uh the same grit, let's say, as you know, it's not a polished grit.
+
+[22:16] Is this making sense? Uh so however, the hyper polished ones, I have my doubts that most people with their hand are accurate enough to do uh to get an edge that is super, except for on like a traditional Japanese knife where it's fairly easy to get the the angle exactly right, but you know, are good enough to get a hyper polished edge that's so true along it that is also at the right angle that it's not gonna get rolled if you take it to a a hyper hyper polished edge. I don't know, it's an interesting it's an interesting fact. We like, you know, someone someone would have to settle it with a microscope and just look at it. I mean, I I I became several, you know, years ago, especially as people started ruining my knives by picking them up and using them for brutal tasks, that uh I was fine uh only going to the level of grit that you have on the uh on the on the you know the finest part of that DMT uh DMZ or whatever it is the diamond stone right because um it's easier for me just to do two three swipes at the beginning of a prep session than it is for me to worry about the the hyper polish.
+
+[23:22] Now I used to go I used to use an edge pro I don't know if you know that system uh uh edge pro you can go down to extremely fine highly polished grits and have with very very accurate edge angles. Do you ever use that system? It's like a guide, right? That you can use Yeah it's a guide on a rod and you set the angle extremely precisely uh and then you just go through all of your knives that are at that at those edge ratios and you can take it down to you know what it that you take it down to base basically to almost like to below toothpaste. You can go up to mirror polish on that thing very quickly.
+
+[23:58] And I used to use that except for I found that I just wasn't sharpening my knives as much because I had to bust the equipment out and do it and yes you know you'd have those crazy hair splitting stuff and I also I used to do I used to leather strop everything as well after I was done because I was also using a straight razor at the time and you know and so it's just something that was part of part of my repertoire but I found that it was just it was too much for me to keep going all the time doing it and then I moved to the diamond stone and found that my average sharpness was increasing just because my maintenance sharpening was so fast. Does that make sense or no? What is the leather strapping do exactly? Is that removing metal as well? I think so.
+
+[24:38] I think I think what it's actually doing uh more, and I've never really uh had anyone, you know, I just it was something I started doing because you know, some old timer told me to do it. Uh I think what it's actually doing is, you know, what if you were to look at the edge, um, it would be fine kind of breaks in it. And I think remember when you're stropping, you're stropping the opposite direction that you would normally sharpen. You're s you're strapping, you're you're scraping the blade, uh, you're scraping the edge. You know, uh you you know what I'm saying, it's the opposite direction.
+
+[25:07] And I think what you're doing is aligning it better. I think what it's really doing is is aligning it, uh similar but in a more gentle fashion than a steel would, even though you're in a steel, you're going in the forward direction, and a strop you're going in the backward direction. I never used to compound my strop. Like it compounded once and then like over the years I just kept on using it without adding more compound to it. And it really made a huge difference.
+
+[25:30] Because you know, the the test that I, you know, I always do the same test is I take a uh a relatively flimsy sheet of paper, hold it, and see whether I can just put my knife through the piece of paper and have the paper fall into two pieces. Because it's an easy way to find nicks in your blade. You know, even like micro nicks, you know, you you you would you would take it, but that cutting that paper also can, you know, misalign your edge a little bit. So then what I would do is I would do my sharpening, cut the paper and then strop it right afterwards, and then I was good to go. That's what I used to used to do.
+
+[25:58] So I always just had a leather leather, you know, a veg tan leather strop hanging uh uh, you know, next to my next to my salamander and just beforehand. So can I can I reiterate the question? Or just phrase it differently? Yeah. Does the tool you're would the tool you're using to sharpen your knife.
+
+[26:16] Change how your knife held an edge? Uh yes, I think that's true. I think that's true, but I think it depend I think in other words, I think it can be true. I don't think it's necessarily true. But I think it it can be true.
+
+[26:31] I don't know what I what I don't know is whether or not an edge that's taken to a lower grit that has, you know, what what is commonly called in the in the in the you know sharpening world micro serrations. I don't know whether those edges are any more or less long lasting than an actual polished edge. I think it is true that you can probably shoot for a polished edge versus a micro serrated edge. Does that make sense? Sure.
+
+[26:54] So I'm kind of taking an in between I'm taking an in between I'm taking an in-between uh uh position there. But you know there's I I agree with what you're saying. So I think that if if you could have a diamond diamond sharpening surface that was as the same amount of grit as a stone a a super fine one and you actually got a fur on it and then shave that fur off it would be the same. Right. Well what I'm saying with this with this the one that we're using it seems like it's really sharp because it's really micro serrated well it And then the micro serrations are easily like eliminated and you're left with like not that sharp of a actual edge.
+
+[27:39] By the way it is actually really it is a it is a fine grit not as fine as the finest water stone. However they they do make an even finer one that I don't have it's just more expensive and doesn't come in a dual in a dual grit um dual grit scenario. I mean just to throw an extra thing out to throw it into it there's a there's an old book that came out I think in the 90s that is mainly out outdated in terms of the the theory behind it. But it's called the Razor's edge book of sharpening, and it was by uh uh a person who is a consultant to the meat cutting industry, and his his gimmick used to be he would shave himself he would sharpen a double bit axe and then shave with it. Uh and so he held he holds the Guinness record for shaving himself uh in record time with a double bit axe.
+
+[28:22] He's probably the only idiot that's ever sharpened his face with a double, you know, raised you know, shaved his face with double bit axe, but there you go. Uh and his theory of sharpening is actually if you want long lived edges, and I think people still advocate this, although not as much, is you uh you you do two different angles. Your final sharpening is at a less steep angle. And I don't even know whether people still practice this. I still do it kind of intuitively that you really want two different uh edges.
+
+[28:49] The one is the hyper the hyper thin uh edge, you know, that you know is down, you know, it used to be like you know, very kind of wide, you know, like you know, 30 or so, but everyone's gone down to like 17 and you know below now and uh on but and then you'd put a slightly more shallow uh one in it that's a lot tougher. Uh you know, and those that sharpening technique was written for the kind of lower quality steels that were at that point still the highest end of knife that most people had in the nineties. So the newer steels probably can take uh an actual finer edge all the way along without shattering and pitting. But, you know, I don't know, take that for what it is. Like th his point was that a longer you're gonna get a much longer lasting ver a sharper edge if your very last sharpening is uh at you know a more uh oblique oblique angle, but a very small oblique angle right at the cutting edge.
+
+[29:42] Is that makes sense or no? Totally makes sense to me. Yeah. Yep. But you know, you might want to take a look.
+
+[29:47] I I again I haven't read that book in in a decade or more. Uh, but you know, at the time it was, you know, a revelation to me, but it my feeling is probably it's outdated at this point. Okay. Thank you a lot. Thank you very much.
+
+[29:59] All right, thank you. Have a good uh okay, so uh questions. Uh again from uh Christine. How about a quick break? Oh, all right, uh come back, we'll come back with cooking issues This is Fish Is Fish Is Vodka by the Meat Ballers on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[30:37] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. We support Heritage Radio Network because all you folks listening are so genuine, so dedicated to serious food, so much a part of what this country needs to strive to become. People like you are few and far between, and it's obvious to us at Fairway that we've got to stick together. Our desire is that the word gets out about Heritage Radio Network in its support for serious food. Foodstuffs that offer memorability and and timelessness, authenticity and and rarefied quality.
+
+[31:10] This country grew too fast to have established any degree of a heritage. Europe had centuries to develop one. America has not. Heritage Radio Network serves to hasten the evolution of a society that often appears coarse and uninterested. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com.
+
+[31:32] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Okay, more questions for Christine. Is there such a thing as too old to become a chef? Well, no. Uh not.
+
+[31:40] Uh, you know, I know uh someone uh no. No, but there this take this. There are a lot of chefs out there who are prejudiced against people who are uh starting uh later in their career. And just be aware of uh the fact that there is a lot of prejudice out there in the community because um, you know, there are there's um a lot of chefs want to be able to beat on the people who are in their kitchens in terms of uh time and labor, and their feeling is that you know, people who are getting a later start aren't gonna stand there on their feet for 12 hours uh, you know, and and uh take the heat of the kitchen and you know, take all of that stuff. They're not gonna put up with it as well as you know, as a really young person.
+
+[32:25] But I think that in general, that's a a bad it's a bad thing to do. It's a bad it's a bad thing to assume about someone. You should take everyone on their own personal merits. You know, my my grandpa who, you know, he was kind of a jerk, but you know, when he was 65, he would go out into the lawn and you know, wrap a cloth around his head, you know, rip giant rocks out of the ground and then do a backflip. He could have kicked the snot out of any 18-year-old uh prep cook coming you know through most kitchens and he would have done it all day uh just to make you look bad, because that's the kind of guy he was.
+
+[32:59] So I think, you know, there's no such thing as too old. There are there are people who as they the majority of people as they get older aren't gonna have the stamina, but it's not the age, it's just it's just that's the way most people are. What do you think? Fair styles? Uh two, if there's only one kitchen gadget you can have, what would it be and why?
+
+[33:17] Well, I'd get an immersion circulator. Uh, you know, bang. I would get an immersion circulator because that's gonna just change the way you cook and it's gonna allow you to do things that you couldn't otherwise do. If you already have an immersion circulator and for some reason you don't own a uh vita prep blender, I would go buy that. Uh if for you know, and those are the two main things uh, you know, that I have at home that most people don't have.
+
+[33:41] If you're rich, I'd get a Paco Jet. I'd love that thing, or a vacuum sealer. Uh, but even if you're not rich, I would go out and get uh a Vitapep or uh an immersion circulator. You know, you know do you have a Vitaprep yes, S? No.
+
+[33:53] You want one though, right? Everyone wants a Vitaprep. You know what? If the people the only people who don't want vita preps are people who don't have one. They're like, why do I need that?
+
+[34:00] Because then as soon as you have one, you're like, oh. Anyway. Uh, you know, and if you have a lot of space, get liquid nitrogen. It's not really a gadget. Uh, but you know, safety, safety with liquid nitrogen.
+
+[34:10] And three, uh, what are your thoughts on turduckin? Turducing is where you know you stuff uh, you know, a bird inside of a bird, typically a turkey, then a uh uh chicken, then a duck. What are your thoughts on turduckin? Is there a secret to getting to cook more evenly? Yes.
+
+[34:23] First of all, do not arrange the meats in the way that is standard. It's a bad arrangement of meats. The way that they do it typically is they put sausage in between all the layers of meat and then just overcook the entire thing. Just overcook the hell out of it, uh, and then assume that the grease from the sausage is gonna keep everything tasting good, but with the uh, you know, and and juicy. What you want to do is go turkey, then chicken, then duck.
+
+[34:48] Uh, and you want to cook it with an immersion circulator, meat glue it together, debone it, meat glue it together, and and cook it at roughly uh 64, 65 until the center of it, Celsius, until the center of it's about 57 where the duck is. Uh you could put a sausage layer in between the chicken layer and the duck layer, uh, and that sausage layer will take up the temperature difference between what you want the chicken to be and what you want the duck to be. And you should be able to get 65 on the turkey, 64 on the chicken, uh between uh 64, 63, and um and like 58 uh on the on the sausage and then 57 on the 57, 58 on the duck. Uh pull it out, fry it off, and you should be good to go. Just make sure that you dry off the skin so that the skin gets all nice and crispity.
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+[35:33] Crispity. Uh and uh that's it, right? Good? Okay. Uh uh Eric uh who writes in.
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+[35:39] Uh he's uh who pineapple, which is an awesome uh uh what's that called? Twitter handle. Who pineapple? Who? Who pineapple?
+
+[35:46] You pineapple. Okay. Uh hi Dave. Looking to make the fries from your blog. And by the way, I know the blog is broken.
+
+[35:52] It is not my fault. We're trying to get control of it, and I've been told that the person who's gonna work on it, swearing on a stack of Bibles, they're gonna get that sucker fixed over the uh New Year's uh thing of a blap, right? Yeah, true? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[36:05] Uh so I know it. Anyway, uh looking to make the fries from your blog. I recall 14 minutes uh cooking in a in a in a blanch and then two fryings. Uh what's the temp on the fry? Okay, so uh my current fries are uh not the ones I did on the blog.
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+[36:19] I still use the enzyme. I do half inch fries now because I like the half inch fry better. Um so I cook it for a little bit longer. I cook it until I can't stand it anymore. Uh first I do well, first you soak it in the enzyme.
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+[36:31] I actually, you know, at home I don't have the enzyme as much, so I've been doing it the normal way and they've been good. Here's the issue. The temperature at which you fry depends on how much you overcook uh the the them to begin with. The less you overcook them, and especially if you're not soaking them in enzymes beforehand, you want to do your initial fry at a lower temperature and fry it for longer. Why?
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+[36:51] To get more moisture out of the uh out of the initial uh out of the potato. So what you would do is you would take the fries, uh, you would blanch them in uh in in water, right? And then you dry them off with uh a fan uh or in a convection oven to get the surface moisture off. Now, if you're doing a 3/8 uh inch or smaller fry, then the the drying step doesn't need to be force-dried. You can just let it flash off some steam, especially if you've done the enzyme soak.
+
+[37:19] If you haven't done an enzyme soak, right, you need to get more water out of there to get the to get the crunchiness on it. What you're gonna want to do is make sure that you dry them off, let them cool down under forced air so that the moisture leaves. With a half inch fry, even with an enzyme soak, you're gonna want to blast some of that moisture off. Now, depending on how overcooked the fry is, you're gonna want to adjust your first fry temperature. Now at home, because I don't have the time to do the full procedure necessarily because I never know I'm making French fries until it's too late.
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+[37:48] I'll omit the enzyme step, and I will just turn my fryer initial fry temperature down to like uh, you know, 300, 270 uh uh 315 Fahrenheit, right? Uh and then what you do is uh the initial fry, it's not a time on the initial fry, you're waiting for a crust to form. You don't want it to go dark, right? You want them to stay blonde. Uh, you know, they can take a little bit of color, but not a lot, but you want to lift the basket out and keep tapping them.
+
+[38:17] And as soon as they form a nice hard crust, that's when you pull the fries out of the first fry, right? And the longer you can go, the more moisture you're you're getting rid of, and the crunchier you're gonna get on the second time of the fry. You just want to don't do it too much. In other words, don't get too rid of too much moisture, you could go all the way to what we call a hollow fry, which I don't like, but you know, you probably won't do it on a half-inch fry. Uh then immediately after you pull them out, the crust will get ruined by the moisture from the potato leaving and they'll go soggy, and then you crisp them up on a second fry at roughly 360 degrees Fahrenheit.
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+[38:47] Uh till they are crunch it, crunch it, crunchy and brown, right? Yes. Yes. You know what? Nastasha does not like French fries.
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+[38:55] Oh, yours are good though. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Oh, that's very sweet. Are you s is this part?
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+[39:00] Are you starting a news? That's here. So we have a New Year's resolution, people. And the New Year's resolution is Nastasha's not going to purposely say things to piss me off, and I'm going to try to yell and scream less. Wait, which one doesn't sound cool?
+
+[39:14] Both. No, I both find the food. You only get an hour of it a week. That's true. I mean, like, yeah.
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+[39:20] You know. You know, I was I was I was six feet four before I started working with Nastasha, and the anger is compressed me into five foot ten homunculus. Anyway, okay. Homunculous. Okay, uh Gene Doe writes in.
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+[39:33] Uh at cooking issues, can you carbonate solidified fruit juice gelatin? Yes. Uh when you're doing it, the way to do it is to uh put it into a the way I do it is I put the gelatin into a uh soda bottle, right? I use a ver I use a high percentage gelatin because the reason is otherwise it's gonna get torn apart, right? And then you wait until it gets syrupy, right, but not set.
+
+[39:55] And then you shake it at a very high pressure. So you're talking like uh 75 PSI or something like that. The bottle is like real dicey, right? So you shake it at those temperatures, uh at those pressures, and you get a very high carbonation level, 75, you know, something like that PSI. Then you chill it in ice water until it sets at that high pressure, and then you cut the bottle open with a serrated knife.
+
+[40:19] Be careful, uh, you know, you to vent it first, and then uh, but you don't actually, you know, you anyway, cut it with scissors or serrated knife, and then you can get the gelatin out, but as soon as you break the gelatin, it it explodes itself from the internal pressure. But yeah, I used to make a champagne gele like that. But the you know, but sometimes it can be really prickly. The the carbonation at those pressure levels trapped on the inside of the stuff can be very, very prickly. Uh but anyway, uh, yes, you can do it.
+
+[40:45] Uh Ryan Santos writes in at cooking issues, looking for sous vide temperature and time for wild venison leg. Uh, looking not for a pulled meat result, but more steak-like. Well, have I done wild leg before? I've not done wild leg before. The question is, is uh, you know, how much connective tissue there is in it and uh how easy it's going to be to render out.
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+[41:05] And the other issue on the particular piece of meat is whether or not it's going to go kind of livery, uh, gamey. I know I would I would say go low, you know, if you want it to be more more steak-like, go low, and because the longer you cook something, the lower uh, you know, the the the lower the temperature uh that you need to go, obviously. So I would say you could probably be somewhere in the 56, you know, 55, 56, assuming it works, let's say, like uh assuming its toughness level is somewhere near like a short rib and not like a lamb leg, uh, which is a lot more tender, I would assume. Then you could do something like 50, 56 uh Celsius for, you know, like a day. Uh, you know, we did yak, but not the leg.
+
+[41:48] We did it for a day at 56, and it was good, but it was gamey because uh, you know, the it took on a kind of a gamey, uh uh a gamey note. But I don't have any experience with long cooking on the on the on the leg, but it was not going to get any tougher at those temperatures, it's gonna break down. Some meats that are that are wild stay tough even when you do long cooking. Like I was really surprised at the lion meat, even though we didn't overcook it, but yeah, I don't don't get me started. Don't get me started.
+
+[42:12] Anyway, but they they they get us lion meat and uh it stayed tough even over long cooking. Bear was but we weren't cooking the leg. So I I apologize that if anyone out there hunters, and I've said everyone who hunts should get themselves an immersion circulator right now, uh before hunting season is over, so that they can just do something other than chili with all of the meat that they get that they otherwise turn into tough uh you know or sausage, that they can actually get some steak cuts out of these things. And I you know, I wish that there was, and there probably is, it's just I'm not connected to it. I wish there was some sort of hunter's blog for uh, you know, low temperature cooking, you know, or some sort of site where hunters You know, we have a hunting show that's gonna debut uh in the new year right before cooking issues.
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+[42:55] Really? I have to make that plug, yeah. Wild game domain at 11 on Tuesdays. Do they own a circulator? Potentially.
+
+[43:01] He's a chef, uh he's a culinary instructor at ice as well. Well, yeah? So yeah, I don't know. He he's been doing some venison recipes. I'm just saying, maybe we can ask him next time.
+
+[43:10] Yeah, or maybe you know, if he doesn't already oh, see, he probably already knows about low temp cooking then, if he's an instructor at ice, uh our enemy school, just kidding. Uh, but the um uh I should say rival enemies strong. Uh but the uh yeah, I'd love I'd love to know. All right, good. So we'll we'll talk to him.
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+[43:26] We'll talk to him uh in the new year. Okay. Uh Ellenasser writes in uh what is the minimum percent alcohol that'll allow me to keep a bottle of whatever in the cabinet versus the fridge? Example, uh uh phalarinum or or violette, things like that. You know, that's a very interesting question.
+
+[43:44] Um you know, spoilage of certain certain, and I'm working on this a lot actually right now with uh sodas that we're working on. So even things that are fairly high sugar level uh and even things that are fairly acidic, like a philarinum, uh, you know, can spoil on you because there are yeasts out there. Now I'm talking dangerous spoilage, but there are yeasts out there that can survive in fairly acidic environments, that can survive in um in even in in in high CO2 environments like soda, and can survive uh you know, kind of all of those things, and can survive, you know, somewhat mild alcohol. Now nothing is gonna grow above with the with the exception of very few, very few things are gonna grow above uh, you know, 18, 20% alcohol. So if you're doping it up to 18, 20% alcohol, you're you're pretty much, I think you're gonna be safe.
+
+[44:37] You know, 20 uh 20 and above, you're good to go. But if you want to have it very low alcohol, you don't want to go high like that. I would, and uh people might get bent out of shape here because everyone's anti-prise preservative, right? But like one tenth of one percent of like benzoit, you know, uh will um prevent yeast from growing. So if you're not against that uh small amount of benzoid preservative, it can do wonders for stopping uh yeast spoilage, which is what you're gonna be looking at uh on on excuse me, on something like that.
+
+[45:12] Uh so that's it. Otherwise, just dope it up to like 20 and you're good. I th I assume. You know, if I'm wrong, someone will say, You're wrong, and they'll they'll text me and say I'm incorrect, and then I'll correct myself, but I'm pretty sure that's right. Uh uh Mike uh I assuming you pronounce it payez, right?
+
+[45:28] P-A-P-A-E-Z, paez, pay us? Sure. Yeah. Paz. Paz.
+
+[45:33] Anyway. Uh have you ever had success experimenting with monoglyceride flakes? Uh and with the with the pound hashtag uh hydrocolloid help? Nice. Uh well, it depends on what you mean by success.
+
+[45:46] Uh mono and diglycerides are uh so you when you take a fat, right? Fatty a fat is a triglyceride, right? So it's a th it's three fatty acids that are attached to uh you know the glycerin backbone there, right? And so it's triglyceride, right? You break off one of those and you get a diglyceride.
+
+[46:03] You break off two of them, you only have one fatty acid on it, and you have a uh monoglyceride. What's interesting about them is is they go from being completely non polar, being a lipid, to being a you know, somewhat polar. So they are emulsifiers. They are ampiphilic. They love both water and they love um and they love oil.
+
+[46:22] Mono and diglycerides are uh are they as emulsifiers go, all emulsifiers are either more oil like or more water like. And when you buy mono and diglycerides, they come as a flake format, uh, they are more oil like. So uh you what you do is is you dissolve them, usually with a little bit of heat, into the oil, and then you emulsify your your water base in. So they're good for uh water, uh water in oil emulsions, right? So that you know that's what I mainly use them for.
+
+[46:53] So I've made hydrocolloid beads by uh putting mono and diglycerides into uh into oils and then emulsifying uh water dro what flavored water droplets into it. So I've used that. Very high levels of mono and diglycerides can be used in um to thicken oils, but I think it's gross. Like you know, you're talking about like 10% mono diglycerides, and it's gross, don't do it. I mean, you can do it, but I wouldn't do it.
+
+[47:19] Uh they're also uh obviously used a lot in uh baking applications. But I don't, you know, I I haven't come up with something yet where in other words, it's not part of our normal pantry. I don't reach for it the same way that I would reach for gel and gum or for agar or for uh meat glue or for um you know Pectanex Ultra SPL, like stuff that uh stuff that I use every single day. But that's just because you know I probably haven't spent the time. I'm sure that if I spent the time with it, that I'd think it's you know the greatest thing since sliced bread.
+
+[47:51] Uh Matt uh Gardner calls uh wrote in and says, hey Dave, what polycyence circulator is best for pop-ups? Uh Creative Series or Chef Series. Maximum 20 guests have a uh $1,000 a drop. Thanks. Uh so okay, so there are three different polycycience circulators that I'm aware of that are out there right now, and I can never remember which isn't the creative is the new one that's 400 bucks, right?
+
+[48:15] Or 450, whatever it is. Then there's the Sous vide uh professional, which is the $800 plastic one, and then there's the other one that is the $900 or $1,000 old school metal one. Now, here's the issue. Uh if you're doing a pop-up, you might want to have two circulators going, right? In which case, for a thousand bucks, you could buy two of the new creative one.
+
+[48:40] Now, neither one of them is going to circulate as large a volume. They're as powerful from a heat standpoint, but they're not as uh they're you know, they their pump is not as powerful. So you you know, you're not necessarily gonna get as large a bath moving as you would with the other one. They're also not uh guaranteed for commercial work. So if they break and they were used commercially, their warranty will not be valid.
+
+[49:01] However, even though you're only cooking for 20 people, you might find that you're gonna do uh in a pop-up scenario two different recipes. It might require two different temperatures, or you might want to run two different baths, in which case, it could be useful to have two circulators running. In which case, the only way to do that for a thousand dollars, uh, you know, with the poly science one is to go with the um with the new creative series. Uh that said, um, you know, both the, you know, I I haven't used the new creative one, so I can't really, really talk about it. But you know, Philip Preston told me that the main difference is the pump is not as strong and it's not warrantied for commercial use.
+
+[49:37] Yeah? Okay. Um Dave, I hate to do it. We've got an international call on the next show. Uh all right.
+
+[49:44] Two how many minutes? Two minutes? Like a minute. Yeah. All right.
+
+[49:48] Uh Elliot Padmot wrote in cooking issues. Didn't hear it before I want to make a cocktail for Christmas theme. Yule log. Any ideas? I'm thinking juniper smoke.
+
+[49:56] It's gonna take longer, Elliot. I'm gonna tweet you out a multiple tweet for uh for your Yule log cocktail, Stasha. I'm sure we'll think about you like Yule log stuff, right? Uh-huh. And you like Christmas.
+
+[50:06] We'll work on that. And uh King Amber wrote in uh super quick quick legal lesson on the name uh Kimique, which I made fun of before. Uh David suggested it was a terrible name. Not so. First is an adorable palindrome.
+
+[50:17] I don't really like palindromes, but okay. And they did a little something with the second cue to make it symmetrical, so it's visually recognizable, but more importantly, in the trademark area. The clients and marketing folks typically want a descriptive name and the lawyers want a non-descriptive name. Uh, and so basically he's saying it's a strong mark because it's both descriptive and non-descriptive. All right, fair, Ken.
+
+[50:35] Fair, fair. Anyway, listen, to everyone out there, I want to wish them whatever you celebrate, happy that, good cooking, and cooking issues. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[51:03] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:24] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Hello, happy new year! Welcome to Cooking Issues! We're back with Nastasha Lopez here sitting next to me on the computer as always.
+
+[1:14] We don't have any uh Jack today because he's still recovering from the New Year's festivities. He's sick. Well, what do you think made him sick? He has a cold. Oh, I see.
+
+[1:22] Thank goodness we have Joe in the studio. How you doing, Joe? I'm doing great. How are you guys? Doing well.
+
+[1:26] How was your new year? It was wonderful in uh warm sunny Los Angeles, California. Los Angeles? Are you in Los Angeles? No, I was just out visiting.
+
+[1:35] V visiting like friends or what? Yep, my girlfriend lives out there or is from there. That's where Nestot. Nastasha Hill's from near uh Los Angeles. Makes me think it's full of bad people.
+
+[1:46] I'm just messing with you. Call your questions live to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Nastasha, what do you do for the new year? I was here.
+
+[1:56] Nothing, yeah. Nothing special. Well, we were avoiding each other. We didn't see each other over the entire entire thing. I was just hanging out with my family and then went to the uh Booker Index.
+
+[2:04] I wasn't avoiding you. I didn't know. I know you were avoiding me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[2:09] Anyway, we have uh we have some questions. Uh Michael Knacken writes in Happy New Year, Michael. Uh it's uh he's our would you say he's our favorite vegetarian cookbook writer? Yeah at this point. I I bought his cookbooks for two friends for Christmas.
+
+[2:21] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Nice. With your own with your own catch. With my own money.
+
+[2:25] Nice. I like that a lot. I like that. She she used the Booker Index card. No, I didn't.
+
+[2:30] I swear. Alright, alright, alright. Uh Michael writes in Chris Young, Chris Young of Modernist Cuisine Fame, who's now teaching uh, I guess, uh, at a rival of ours, like uh Johnston Wales, I think in Rhode Island. I think he's doing it, uh not wherever it is, yeah. Rhode Island on the campus anyway.
+
+[2:44] Chris Young, friend of ours, like him a lot, was telling some entertaining stories about fluffing. And Michael wants to know, can we say that on the air? I think we can, if we don't describe where f the word fluffing comes from, we can say it. Right, Joe? Yeah, just uh yeah.
+
+[2:58] Uh walk at the thin line. Yeah, well, well, okay, so I think fluffing, like it's such a good word. It needs to just be redefined as just keeping people pumped for their job. Let's put it that way. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[3:10] Right. Great. All right, a fluffer is someone who keeps the more important person pumped and primed, let's say. Let's say say pumped in prime. Okay.
+
+[3:17] Uh anyway, so uh about fluffing uh with uh uh me and Tony the Tiger in Miami. Uh can we hear Day's version of the events? Uh yeah, sure. Uh so what happened was is that uh a number of years ago, um we were asked, uh Chris Chris and I were asked to literally fluff for food network talent at some event at South Beach. It's the only Did I go twice or did I go once to South Beach?
+
+[3:39] I think once. Once, yeah. I I don't really, whatever, I'm not gonna say anything about it. But anyway, the point is that Kellogg's the people like who make you know who make good products like uh the Kellogg's Frosted Flakes and other and other well-known cereal brands, they have they they rent this amphitheater thing inside of this place called uh the parrot jungle. I think that's the name of it, Parrot Jungle in Miami.
+
+[4:00] Like right uh right there, like near the causeway. And uh the place is nutty, like the place is full of of like crazy parrots and crazy trees, and all sorts of like you know, like they have a they have a um a cockatoo there that literally used to they have a picture of the cockatoo sitting on Winston Churchill's shoulder, and this some some gun cockatoo is still alive because apparently as long as they don't get sick, these things they just don't die. They live to be like a hundred, these freaking things. Anyway, so there's parrots everywhere. And Kellogg uh is like renting the place out for this South Beach Food and Wine Festival thing.
+
+[4:31] And Chris and I are there because they have some sort of science-friendly kids thing. I don't even really know, but what it really was an excuse for was to get like Jada and uh you know, the Ace of Cakes, Sky and Guy Fieri and uh, you know, all these people up there. And so literally Chris and I would stand there and take science questions from the local Miami crowd and their kids, just like cooking issues, just like this, but it was all questions that I hate. Like, you know, all like nutrition-based stuff. Anyway, we fielded the questions, and everyone no one could wait for us to get the hell off the stage so that Giada or or Guy Fieri could get on stage or Tony even Tony the Tiger was a much bigger hit than and than we were.
+
+[5:18] I mean, frankly, I mean I think we did a good job, but you know, they weren't there to see, you know, Chris Young and and myself uh you know answer their questions about uh uh you know differ different kinds of sugars. But uh my my memory is is that this the the one question that the person was excited to ask, this little girl was like, eh, I raised her hand, I guess, and she says, uh, can you give this necklace to Jada? And she made this like pasta necklace, and I was like, oh my god. And I I hope to God that Giada was good about it and like took it and wore it. I was like, well, I was like, kid, I don't know Jada.
+
+[5:48] Like if I went up and like tripped her and she fell over, she wouldn't know who to call the cops and blame. She has no idea who the hell I am. I didn't say hell. I didn't say any of this. But I was like, but I will try to see, I'll put this necklace right here where her workstation is, and hopefully she will put it on.
+
+[6:01] But I don't even know what happened because as soon as it was time for the real people to come on stage, they like you know, brought out the cane, like swiped us off the stage, and that was it, gone. Right? Nastasha, but let me tell you how how how ghetto this was. Nastasha was flown out there to quote unquote assist in this project, and she didn't even show up to the event. True or false.
+
+[6:22] I wasn't flown out, and I paid my own way in my hotel. No, you your own hotel. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Because because you wouldn't work with it to get the hotel, your flight was paid, excuse me. I can look through my go through and look.
+
+[6:35] Your flight was paid. Uh you could have had a paid hotel, but you can't Nasta here's Nastasha. Nastasha, even when we're going on business, so cheap, she's like, Can I just stay in your hotel? No. I'm a grown man.
+
+[6:44] We didn't have a business card. This is like whatever here in Northern. But the the the really good reason to go, and the reason why it was an extremely worthwhile trip was A, I got to see the the uh the uh cockatoo that was on uh Winston Churchill's shoulder, but B, it was the first time I went to the uh Miami uh fruit and spice park, which is I think one of the greatest places on earth, and I've talked about it on the air a bunch, and it's uh a place everyone should go. And we went with Chris, and I think he was pretty impressed by as well. Yeah.
+
+[7:07] Yeah. Okay. Uh Grant from Indianapolis writes in about pork belly and espuma. Okay, uh I'll I'm gonna go, I'll go Looney on the word espuma in a minute. But uh hey uh Dave Nastashia and gang.
+
+[7:14] I'm working on a new dish and have a couple of questions I would love to have you weigh in on. First, I want to do a pine infused espuma. Uh I want pine flavor to come through so it's recognizable but not overpowering. My question is on method. I'm wondering if I could I should simmer the pine in uh my liquid on the stove, throw it in a bag in my sous vive supreme, or use a pressure, uh use pressure in an ISI whipper.
+
+[7:36] What do you think? All right. Um, Grant, first thing, here's what I think. I hate the word espuma. Okay, okay, I'll tell you why.
+
+[7:44] I I posted about this, you can't read it right now because the blog is still down. We're working on it, people. I don't want to hear it, I'm working on it. Uh actually, I'm not working on it. Uh a friend of ours named Paul's working on it.
+
+[7:53] But um espuma is I I believe it's just kind of like the Spanish word for foam, right? I mean, do you sp you don't speak Spanish anymore? Nastasha forgot all of her Spanish because she had an Italian boyfriend once. I don't want to talk about it. And uh but the point is is that is that in English, a spuma to me sounds like something you hawked up and spat out.
+
+[8:12] Right? Nastash, you with me on this? Yes, it's it's disgusting. Yeah, yeah. So for me, I'm gonna say that if you're doing it, like I would just call it a foam.
+
+[8:20] I would just call it a foam. I mean, if you have to say the word espuma, say the word espuma. But I just I'm I'm I'm anti the word espuma on an English language menu. If the entire menu's in Spanish, then go ahead and write espuma, right? Right.
+
+[8:33] Right. But it'll be like it would be like writing, I'm gonna have poached oofs. You don't write that. You know what I mean? You write I have poached eggs, right?
+
+[8:40] Yes. Right. And by the way, I like like I hope you're not getting bent over me going on this diatribe. I just happen to not like the word. That's all, right?
+
+[8:47] It's a gross word. It's gross. I mean, look, no effect. I'm not saying like Grant, we're pro you, just anti-the word is pluma, right? Okay.
+
+[8:53] Uh on pine. The interesting thing about pine is is that I I love pine. Uh my favorite way to work with pine is actually to uh distill it. Uh we we, you know, several many years actually, we've taken Christmas trees, purchased Christmas trees, ripped the Christmas trees apart and then distilled them. Remember last year's stuff?
+
+[9:11] Yeah, we did a party for uh MTV, MTV music, and uh we did we did pine pine gin and tonics where we were doing uh Douglas furs and we were buying Douglas furs and stripping them down and and um and distilling them in the rotive app, and that's delicious. So the two things you want to make sure when you do it is one, you don't oversteep if you're using something like alcohol, which it sounds like you're not, but if you're using alcohol, there's a real danger that you're gonna get kind of that detergent-y um pine sally kind of uh uh thing out of it because you extract so so much of the resin. It probably won't be as big of a deal if you do it in water. I would do traditional uh, for instance, like a spruce tea or fir or pine tea is typically done either with the new buds if you can get them, it's not the time of year, or uh with the needles uh brewed for a fairly long time in hot water because it won't extract uh as much of the resin, but you'll get a uh a nice brew out of it. B I like I say, I've done it almost exclusively in alcohol, I've never really done any water-based uh pine stuff.
+
+[10:06] You want to be careful to choose, well, aside from choosing ones that don't have weird pesticides on it, you want to be careful to choose a pine that's not too redolent of uh bathroom cleaner. And I have the same problem with lavender. A lot of times when you're working with lavender in a drink, and I warn people because a lot of people want to work with lavender and they want to work with pine. Me, I'm I have a huge soft spot for pine. I remember Sam Mason used to work with pine a lot at WD-50 back when he was there.
+
+[10:28] Uh you know, I've worked with pine a lot, Nils works with pine a lot. We we all love it, but there's a good chunk of people out there that even when you do a really, really good job with it, are going to have um bat bathroom memories or cleaner memories. And and and like I say, the same thing is true with um with lavender. And so you have to be very careful to try it out on a bunch of people to see whether or not they're gonna have the same response. It's very difficult as a cook to know what everyone's reaction is gonna be to something just because you love it.
+
+[11:03] I've I've learned this the hard way, believe me, many, many times. The same thing happened is true uh you know a number of years ago with super low temperature fish that you know uh a lot of people were playing around with like a lot of the chefs really loved it, but there's a good chunk of customers that even when it was done really, really well, they just didn't like it. And so just be aware when you're using a polarizing flavor that you are using a polarizing flavor and try to try to take it such that it's on the non-detergenty side. That's all. That's what I'm gonna say.
+
+[11:29] Uh that said, distillation is sick. Also, on dosing, dosing is extremely important. So even if you have one that you really like the aroma of, and you don't think it's gonna go too pine salt, too detergent. Like we've done, I've done, we've done Fraser's, we've done Doug Fur's, we've done, I think we've done balsam. Uh, you know, I've never had a really good source of spruce myself.
+
+[11:47] And I used to chew on the needles all the time growing up because I've I loved it. Um but you want to um you want to test it all the time as you're making it to make sure that you're not gonna go extract too much stuff and go over bitter, over piney, over resin on it. There's a very, very fine line, you want to be careful. And the same thing's true. Remember when we did this distillation styles, we had a very, very strong distillate.
+
+[12:07] We had to water it quite a bit to get it to work exactly the way the way we want it to. But that said, it's a very good flavor. Okay. That's good? Yes.
+
+[12:14] Okay. Uh, second, this is uh from Grant Still. I'm doing a low temperature pork belly. Unfortunately, I don't have a circulator, just a Sous-Vide Supreme, so I'll have to do smaller pieces of the belly at a time. My first thought is to do a brine rinse, uh, cook sous vide uh low uh and then sear it.
+
+[12:30] But I benefit from doing a pre-sear before cooking low temp, or am I best off leaving it till the end. My goal is to have a nice crispy layer of skin on top. Also, since I'm planning on cooking the belly a day ahead, would it be best to reheat it in the bag the day of service and do my sear right before it goes out to the table. Okay. On the pork belly, like I would cook it way more than a day if you're gonna go low.
+
+[12:50] I mean, Wiley used to do his, I think for 72 hours, and I still remember that dish. That was on I think his opening menu, his his uh he was uh Wiley's at WD50 when he opened was I think the first time I'd had the the low temperature long cooked pork belly, and um that was actually one of the revelations for uh low temperature cooking for me was how much I I like that. And he he brined I think he his took up forever to do. He brined it, I think with uh some n nitrites in it if my memory is right, for uh three days or two or a day. But one between one and three days he would brine it, uh wet brine, I believe, and then he would uh vacuum package it, d let it dry a little bit, then he would vacuum package it, and I think here's the key to why his thing was so good.
+
+[13:31] Uh he wouldn't pre-sear, he would press it. And he pressed it for a long time and let it cool down to get the skin nice and flat, I think, and to get all the meat together. Then he would cook it for like 72 hours at a pretty low temperature. I don't know what he did, probably sixty or something like that. Uh and then or sixty-two, somewhere in there.
+
+[13:50] And then uh he pulled it out, and then he would crisp it like a duck breast. And so I think he would. This is what I would have done. This is my memory of it. Uh he he he he you know and he would crisp it uh on the skin side and I think just like let the heat carry carry it over.
+
+[14:05] Uh I've done it a bunch, I've never done uh all the I've never taken all the care that Wiley did to do it. We've done much more kind of off the cuff long cooked ones, because we weren't doing it for restaurant service, but the key in this thing is crisping the skin. And what you're if you pre-sear it, my fear is that you're not going to have a very flat piece of skin, and it's gonna be hard for you to get a really good sear on it. So when you when you have a piece of meat and you don't do the pressing, especially on pork, and you really need that sear to get it crunchy. If you have a lot of undulations in the skin when it's against the pan and it's and it's rendering out, you'll get these blonde spots on the bottom that aren't crunchy and they're just not as satisfying as the rest of it where it's like all hyper crunchy and delicious.
+
+[14:42] Yeah? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh we got a we got a uh a write-in from our one of our earliest cooking issues readers back when the blog was working, Schinderhannis.
+
+[14:54] And uh and Schinderhannis, very good to hear from you. Happy New Year. This is your loyal uh loyal follower, uh Shinderhannis. It seems that the world has to accept the fact that you don't have the time and resources on hand to keep the world's best food blog cooking issues alive and well fed on new entries. But now your blog is completely unavailable.
+
+[15:10] I used it as an important online resource and I'm missing it badly. Are you planning to publish it as an online blog archive? Please do so. That would be great news. Otherwise, I'll promise to buy any book you're working on.
+
+[15:20] Uh and then he says as a third alternative, he'll uh leave in a huff and turn to Campbell's soup for the rest of his useless life. Wow. Schinderhannis. And he ends it, yeah, he's he's a good man. We he ends it in uh Freundlichrusa, which is I guess you know, best regards, friendly greetings uh off Deutsche.
+
+[15:35] Uh Dr. Johannes Kerbering. Okay, well, Shinderhannis, I I've said this a million times, but like honestly, people need to know out there, like we're literally waiting for people to flip the right switches. It seems preposterous, but we don't have control of the blog yet, and we're working on it in a hardcore way. Not really.
+
+[15:53] I'm not working on it at all. But we have other people who are theoretically working on it. Is that true? Yeah. So do we have like a We have a Paul working on it.
+
+[15:58] Paul doesn't have a date. Paul's still figuring it out. Oh my, you know, it's like it's like if we just went into selling Cialis, none of this would have happened. We could have just split it with whoever hacked us wherever they are, you know what I mean? And just like, you know, kept on running, but you know, it's it wasn't to be we're going to get the information.
+
+[16:15] I I can promise this, the information will be back online. Uh I have hopes that you're right, I don't have time to do what I was doing back then. Uh maybe we can find some people. The the real problem is is that it's hard to find people who want to write things uh kind of the way that I want them written. But this kind of ties into another question uh not a question, a comment.
+
+[16:37] Steve Crandall wrote in and he said he he he's giving us a point out to another blogger uh and his name is Greg Blonder, the blogger. I don't know him. Do you know him? No. No.
+
+[16:46] Greg Blonder is a friend and colleague, a physicist who's playing with food a bit. You may enjoy some of his online articles. And I read these articles on diffusion uh and brining and it's some of the best writing on brining that I've ever seen on the internet. And uh you want to g you guys everyone who listened to this I think would enjoy it. Uh www dot genuine ideas dot com.
+
+[17:08] Uh and so uh he does lots of really awesome things. Like he's testing brining and he uh it he in order to test nitrite um nitrite penetration into uh into meats during uh during like brining with uh curing salts he bought uh nitrite um he went to an aquarium shop and bought a nitrite test paper for aquariums to test the nitrite level because uh of like what fish make nitrites when they're in there. And he was using it as blonder paper and testing the diffusion of nitrates into uh into meats, which was I thought like that is a freaking fantastic idea. And then he was using some sort of uh some sort of salt assay to literally paint the surface of meats after different uh brining things to see how far salt had penetrated in, which I thought was fascinating. And then uh something years ago that uh you know I tried to do uh unsuccessfully was to use uh dyes to try and look at br b brine penetration.
+
+[18:02] And that's when I bought a bunch of FNDC blue one, which if you put into gel caps and give people they will uh they won't know it necessarily, but they'll poop green. I'm not recommending you do that. I didn't do that, but I know that it works, but I didn't do it, right? Right. But uh Nastasha opened up the bottle of FNDC blue.
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+[18:18] I was like, I told her, I was like, I it came in the mail. I was like, Nastasha, do not open this, do not touch this. And just so you know, her nature, it's not in her nature to not fool around with stuff and like put fingernail marks and everything and everything and like mangle and mutilate. I knew she'd mess with this one because when I came back, her face was entirely blue. Entirely blue.
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+[18:36] Remember that? Yeah. And I was like, I didn't touch it. I hear I didn't touch it. I was like, and I showed her the mirror, she's like, oh, anyway, so uh but the problem with FNDC blue is that FNDC blue is uh rather large compared to things like salt, and so it and it also it it's not you know it doesn't work the same way.
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+[18:52] But uh this guy that I don't know, but probably like to meet, Greg, is um showed a really interesting result, which was that if you brine with acid, it actually uh kind of forces the meat fibers apart and then allows larger things like the blue dye to penetrate further into the surface of the meat, but not very far. Fascinating stuff. And then even more fascinating on this uh on the subject of brining, and this is something that I hadn't heard before. Uh this was new to me and opened up a whole world is that you know you get X amount of brine penetration, salt penetration over time during a brine, but then the actual cooking process pushes the brine further into the meat, and he shows it with these tests that are relatively conclusive and like really cool images. So uh Steve, thanks for pointing that out.
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+[19:37] And uh break. Well, I'll start. These Steve, thanks for pointing that out, and uh, and uh, I'm sure I'm gonna go read a whole bunch of other people go uh read that stuff too. So, with that, we're gonna take a birth commercial break. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network dot org.
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+[21:04] The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting-edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. Every Wednesday at noon, Dorothy Can Hamilton, founder and CEO of the International Culinary Center, interviews the top chefs in the world on Chef Story.
+
+[21:36] Here from chefs like Christina Tosy. I'm gonna be the best pastry cook this restaurant's ever seen. Francis Malman. Cooking with fire is it's very feminine, it's very fragile, and Jacques Pepin. That one invited to welcome the White House for John Kennedy.
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+[21:51] Learn how the greats become great. Every Wednesday at 12 p.m. on Chef Story at Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello, and welcome back to Cooking Issues. We have a caller.
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+[22:03] Caller, you're on the air. Hi David, this is Johnny Cart from Memphis, Tennessee. How are you doing? Doing alright yourself? I'm doing good.
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+[22:12] I had a question about uh uh cookery and surveyed the yolks. Okay. Uh rigged up some PVC pipe. You know, of course cleaned it out real good, and put some acetate um, you know, inside of there. Right.
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+[22:33] And put saran wrap around the bottom. Um put egg yolks in there. And I thought I had secured it. Um with the other side with saran wrap all around. Right.
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+[22:50] And I cooked it at what is it uh uh sixty four degrees for about an hour right and it came out running right so though here's the thing the c a couple things the one of the weird things about egg yolks is that uh they don't cook at the same temperature when you crack them out as they do when um as they do when you um um cook them in the shell and I don't really know why uh I've tried to like wonder whether or not it's like there's a the the slight the basic nature of uh egg white I don't really understand why you'd think that being surrounded by the egg white would actually raise the temperature at which it coagulates because the base there is uh is going to weaken the protein but uh for some reason egg yolks um are they they set at a different temperature outside of the um outside of the the shell uh the other thing is is that if you add salt or sugar then you drastically change the temperature at which the egg yolks uh set now I've never done a full set of experiments to figure out but like before I would um go through all the trouble that you're doing I would I would just like uh take some egg yolks almost uh in ramekins at different temperatures and see at what temperature you can get them to set uh fully outside of the shell but I'll tell you it is different it might also be different a whole egg yolk out of the shell in other words a separated egg yolk that's not broken versus one that's been mixed with a fork. I don't know whether or not it's gonna be different or not because I I never run the full set of tests. This is one of the original years ago things that Wiley was asking uh Harold McGee when we were doing the original Harold McGee class at the French culinary. And I never really said I never really got a satisfactory answer for what was going on. I just know that the temperature is different.
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+[24:44] The other thing I'll add is that uh I wouldn't uh I wouldn't trust uh the PVC even with the cleaning you know at this point nobody really knows uh what the plasticizers do uh to us or to people that we're serving but you know everyone knows the PVC does have plasticizer in it and then no matter how well you wash it it will leach out over time especially into fatty things like like an egg yolk. So if you're getting direct con I mean I know you have acetate in there and so there's probably not a lot of direct contact but you know I I at this point try to shy away from PVC when um when I can. Even though you know what though for tests you know it there's nothing beats it 'cause it's so cheap and so easy to work with. You know what I mean? Um but I would definitely say you're gonna want to jack the temperature higher did you add salt or sugar to it?
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+[25:32] I did not I did one I did about three tests. I did add salt to the second one. I didn't add salt to the uh first one what what would be the I guess the best conduct is it conduction to the PVC pipe? Well it's in other words like stops it's not that it's not that the PVC I mean the PVC is a bad conductor that's true right but it's not that the it's not that the PVC was a bad conductor I think it literally is that you need to jack the temperature higher. Uh I would try I'm trying to remember what Wiley used to do.
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+[26:12] Wiley used to do um he would make uh egg tubes in uh in um vac bags. He would make tubes out of vacuum bags and then seal them off and cook the egg yolks that way. And I'm gonna wanna say he had to put it as high as seventy Celsius to get it to work exactly the way he wanted to. So I think you're gonna need to it's uh although P V C is a bad conductor, I think you're gonna want to go higher, like up almost up to about seventy degrees C and then if that sets too hard for you, then you might want to pull it back. But I believe that in his old um I forget which dish it was where you had the egg tubes like that, but uh I think that they were done up at seventy when they were done out of things.
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+[26:51] I don't know. Um okay so yeah how how would he go about setting them in a in a uh bag where it's circular. Yeah well he they were I think what he would doing was he was uh like uh putting them in a in like he he was sealing the bag almost like flavor ice pops and then like you know injecting them full and then cutting off the ends where they were pillow shaped. But I mean like there's a bunch of things you could do. You could get test tubes.
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+[27:20] The question is how would you get them out of the out of the other sides. Uh you know, if you I think the technique that you're using as a test w would be fine. I mean you might want to move to like uh like an acetate line stainless steel pipe or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Something that's a little more that is a better conductor and also it's definitely food grade.
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+[27:38] So if you go to like McMastercar dot com you could I don't know what size you're using, but I'm guessing you're probably using like half inch or three quarter P V C something like that. Uh and if you yeah and if you're if you're doing that you can get something with the same internal diameter made out of like three oh four stainless that's you know uh seamless on the inside, smooth bore and thin and you can buy like a one foot length of it. You can cut it with a hacksaw into two six inch lengths. And you know, you can probably get that for in the range of fifteen bucks or something, something on that order, especially uh you know, and it's gonna be completely non-reactive and if you line that with acetate you should be able to pull it out fine, you know? And then uh you know and then if you don't have to make too many of them and then and the good thing about those things is you you can use them an infinite number of times they're a hundred percent food grade and you know they won't break and you you know you'll have them forever.
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+[28:25] What was the website you said? Oh McMaster.com which is McMaster Car. And it's one of the they charge a little more than other people do like a lot more like 30% more but the great thing is they have something like four or five warehouses all over the country and so they're never more than uh one day uh you know usually I mean at least you know most places I've been they're never more than one ground day away so if you order by six PM whatever your local time is then it usually it shows up UPS ground the next day. I'm also I'm also getting some air in there because they're floating um I don't know whether I need to come straight out of the fridge or or freeze them and then put them in the car in the PVC or the um you know the correct uh vessel right well if you if you have if you freeze them they'll be almost solid. If you freeze and thaw an egg the uh egg yolk they'll be almost solid the problem is you'll get a little bit of greening on them the color's never quite right after you freeze the egg yolk at on on the membrane on the outside and if you mix it that'll probably be uh ameliorated somewhat but if you're using something like a stainless steel tube uh you what's f you should if you have your vacuum machine this is always a fun experiment to run put uh put a bottle in there with a cap on it real loose so that if you if you if the caps on it, it's uh it you know the stuff will spill out of it, and then put uh put liquid into the bag with the bottle, and when the air comes back in, all the liquid will be shot into the bottle, which is it's a hilarious experiment to watch because literally the liquid liquid's forced in.
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+[30:03] So if you were to if you were to put stainless steel tubes with a little bit of extra egg yolk into uh into a uh vacuum bag, then the egg yolks will shoot themselves into the tube. Okay. So you're cutting out of me a little bit. I can go back and listen to what you said. But uh, so it won't float.
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+[30:26] What's the best uh thing to do to not float? Oh well, uh Hervé at the French culinary, his technique whenever he was doing a hand wrap of something that wasn't in a vacuum machine is he would just take a couple of stainless steel like uh butter knives or spoons and do a couple of wraps of cellophane with the uh with the butter knives or spoons and those suckers will sink right to the bottom. Alright. Um other advice you can give me on this or anything else? No, I think that should work.
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+[30:57] Like uh try it up at 70, and if it's too hard for you, start scaling back. But I would do your next test at 70 degrees Celsius. Uh, and I would, like I say, vac bag it and you go back and listen to it. Hopefully you can hear if you vac bag it, you the vacuum machine should push the eggs literally into the tube for you. Uh you know, and uh and that should that should work, that should work for you.
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+[31:16] But shoot shoot us uh uh Twitter at uh shoot us a tweet rather at uh at cooking issues if you're having more problems and we'll uh we'll give you some pointers. Alrighty. Okay. Thanks, Dave. All right, good luck.
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+[31:26] All right, you too. Uh okay. So uh we had a question in from uh Barry Munkasey. Uh happy New Year's cooking issues team. I bought an immersion circulator about six months ago, but I have not uh but I have not done a multiple hourslash days recipe.
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+[31:42] The circulator came with a free camware professional container, but no top. I'm concerned about excessive heat loss and evaporation when it is unattended for a significant number of hours. Which would be better? Polypropylene balls, like the ping pong balls, uh or the custom cut lid that the website sells or something else. Uh I'll hit this one first.
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+[32:00] So uh I use uh at home, I have the lid that's cut uh and that thing works great. If you don't have it, you should just wrap saran uh over, you know, uh plastic wrap over the top of it. Anything to prevent uh evaporation. And when I'm doing a long cook, you know, like long, long cook, I'll even wrap around the gap in my pre-cut uh top with saran to it and you get almost zero evaporation then. You can run a three-day cook without ever having to add water.
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+[32:29] I would keep checking it, obviously, because duh, right? But um, you know, but it's not a problem. And I've never used the ping pong balls. I've never seen anyone use the ping pong balls in the real life. I've heard of people buying the ping pong balls, and I've spoken to people who used to use the ping pong balls and no longer use the ping pong balls, but uh I've never known anyone who actually uses them.
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+[32:51] The ping pong balls are really good for uh electroplating businesses, right? Whereas or anyone who has a lot of a highly volatile chemical and you need to go in and out of the bath a lot, and so they prevent evaporation. When you're doing a long cook, you're not going in and out of the bath a lot. So the easiest thing to do is to just cover the whole thing with saran wrap or with it with a tight fitting lid, right? The only time you really need to be able to have those things is like I say, in when you're service going in and out.
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+[33:18] And during service, you don't need to necessarily have such a good uh lid on it, right? Because usually your reheat temperatures aren't as important as your cooking temperatures. So if you get like a like one degree cooler at the top, it's not such a big deal. And you can just go in with tongs and pull the stuff out and not have to worry about these ping pong balls getting all over your kitchen, going to your dishwasher, getting lost, you know, I don't know, your dog swallowing it or whatever. You know what I mean?
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+[33:42] So I don't know anyone who bought the ping pong balls and loved them enough to keep uh working with them. You can buy, I don't know how much they charge. I've never purchased in my life a pre-cut lid. You know, I always buy a lid and I use a hacksaw. Uh I think that they've changed it back in the day when they used to pre-cut the lids, they would cut the lid in the center of the thing, which is a waste of space in your cambro.
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+[34:03] So I would always cut the lid on the on in the corner. Here's another tip for you. If you buy an extra lid, and this is gonna be uh, you know, I don't know whether you're using this at home or or whatever, but if you're if you what I used to do, still do around New Year's or Christmas, whenever I have a big party, I would take my my lid and I would saw with a hacksaw uh holes to fit round bane marie's in it, and then I would uh drill holes so that I could uh put a spring and pull them down, and I would put stainless steel bane maries. So I would literally have parties where I had sliders staying hot in the circulator that I could reach in through a little, you know, gap I'd cut in the lid, and then I would have like queso dip in one and chocolate fondue in the other, all running out of the same circulator, all kept hot. So you know, you know, have cambro lid and some ingenuity and a saw, and you can get a whole bunch done.
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+[34:50] Uh okay, second, my department. I don't know what department, you didn't say what department. Department in what? I don't know, like what? We'll say it's purchasing.
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+[34:58] I have no idea, right? Anyway. Uh second, my department annually has a why is it always like purchasing as a department you think about? Because they do they get to do the cool stuff, right? They get to buy all the stuff, yeah.
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+[35:06] Purchasing. Yeah. Yeah. Purchasing. Okay.
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+[35:09] Uh, second, my department annually has a soup contest for the governed uh coveted golden ladle. I have made chicken gumbo, shrimp bisque, matzo ball soup. I love matzo ball soup. Do you like matzo ball soup? I've never had it.
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+[35:20] Never? Never. Do you know that that uh that's crazy? We should like someone out there has to invite uh Nastasha along with her Mutra friends and maybe Mark over for like matzo ball soup, right? Yeah.
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+[35:32] Yeah, yeah. Because I think you would like it a lot. What's not to like? Do you like you've had you had matzo balls, but only only the mutant sweet one I made. Yeah.
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+[35:40] I made a mutant sweet matzo ball because I was working on a matzo ball. I was working on a matzaball uh uh drink. It didn't work. We didn't end up using it, but it was all based on uh it was all based on this uh we use this kind of like nice uh Japanese whiskey called Yamazaki. And so the joke was we were gonna make a drink called Yamakazaki that was Yamazaki with a sweet maple syrup malt matza ball in it.
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+[36:03] And I made uh the matzo balls were actually quite good. I'd never had a kind of sweet matzo ball before. Uh but they they were good, but the drink was just awful. Did you have that one? Yeah.
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+[36:13] It's terrible, right? Who are we doing that for? We're just we're seeing if we can do it. Really? Mm-hmm.
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+[36:20] Anyway, it didn't work. We didn't so for those of you out there like uh know that we were unsuccessful in our matzo ball uh cocktail. But you might be more successful, but anyway, uh uh be that as it uh matzo ball soup, corn chowder. I like corn chowder. Do you like a corn chowder?
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+[36:36] I like a corn chowder, corn chowder, good part, amongst others, and I finished second so many times that they felt bad for me two years ago, and they gave me the golden spork as a consolation prize. What's the name of that person from all my children? Suzanne Lucci? Susan Lucci. Susan Lucci.
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+[36:50] So he's like the Susan Lucci of of soup in the purchasing department. Uh this year, uh, with what I thought was a delicious Asian chicken and corn soup, I finished completely out of the running, and so now have even lost a golden spork. I have eight months to tinker and experiment to come up with this year's winning entry and would like to take a modernist cuisine approach. Could you provide me with a syllabus for success? Uh and finally I hope that one of your new year's resolutions is that you will uh that you accomplish will be fixing and updating the blog, Barry McCasey.
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+[37:19] Okay. Here's the thing. I think your problem is is if the first thing first thing you should do is never enter contests. I've learned this because it's only heartbreak. Barry, it's only heartbreak.
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+[37:31] Uh the other thing is that if you look at it, right, you had discouraged him. I'm not discouraging him. I'm just saying I don't enter contests. I don't like them. I don't enjoy them.
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+[37:39] Except for eating contests, which I always win. But the the uh but here's the thing, right? So let's let's look at this. So the Asian chicken and corn soup, I don't know your audience. Like you have to know your audience, right?
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+[37:51] So, you know, you can have the best tasting, most nuanced thing in the world, and if you show up and your audience wants, you know, you you should you show up with I'll I'll give you an example. I did an event once and uh with Nils, and uh Nils and I had spent like a a lot of time making fresh clarified, uh really good apple juice. I think we were using, I think we were using Ashmeat's kernel, which is uh my favorite apple, and um fennel, and we had you know clarified these things uh and then balanced it with gin and uh we had a little clarified uh you know lime juice in it, we carbonated it, we'd done all this work, and uh and it was frankly, it was a good drink. You know what I mean? Uh you know, one of our best, I think, that we did.
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+[38:36] And we went to an event and it was uh it was a Chardonnay crowd. You know what I mean? And so we showed up. It's like it's like bringing uh you know, you bring in the wrong tool to the job, you know what I mean? So like here we are, and and you know what that is?
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+[38:49] Depressing. And that's actually the event that caused me to learn that what you the most important thing to do is to know your audience and to create a slam dunk for that audience. That said, you also have to make it interesting for yourself. So otherwise you're not gonna be you're not gonna be interested. You know, if you're just cranking out, you know, if what they want is Chef Boy RD, it's still not going to be interesting if you're just cranking open cans of Chef Boy RD and pouring it into a into a bucket, which reminds me of my Uncle Ralph.
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+[39:16] What am I? I asked my my uncle Ralph asked said something to me once, and I was like, Well, you know, I don't know why. He goes, he goes, What do I look like? Chef Boy R D. I was like, kind of Uncle Ralph.
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+[39:25] You look kind of like freaking Chef Boy RD. He doesn't really, because if Chef Boy RG was D was from Jersey, my Uncle Ralph would look like Chef Boy R D. I love Uncle Ralph. Anyway, so uh uh and he talks kind of like that. I love Uncle Ralph.
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+[39:37] Anyways, uh so know your audience. Secondly, the question is what are you gonna do, uh modernist? I think now Nastasha doesn't like these because she doesn't like a lot of the flavors that we did when we did it, but the concept is sound. And I think uh nut milks are make a very, very good base for a soup. So you can take a traditional soup that is really good and switch it out for a uh like a nut a nut milk base, so a pistachio milk, a cashew milk, or a uh, you know, an almond milk, any one of these kind of like and and and you don't have to have uh really expensive equipment to do it.
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+[40:11] I do it in a centrifuge because I have one, but you can um you can just blend it, you know, in in a blender with hot, you know, super hot water and then strain it through uh you know muslin to get the milk out of that makes a really good base, but it sounds like you know, if they didn't like the Asian thing, I mean yeah, I don't know what they want, you know what I mean? Um, you know, you can use uh you know, make your own stocks, obviously, with like you know, uh with a pressure cooker as long as you have a non-venting one. I would look up um everything in modernist cuisine on on stock making um on soups, but really like you need to get back with me on what style of soup you think is going to be the one that they're gonna go for because that's the first choice. You know, then make making it making it kick butt is the next thing. There's no sort of all like catch-all like b best soup idea.
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+[40:56] It's more like you know, what's your goal? And then we can brainstorm towards getting there, right? Yep. Okay. Uh okay.
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+[41:04] Jeff on uh baking steel and Indian cookbooks. First time caller, longtime listener, love the show. You've made the process of cooking and learning about food extremely enjoyable and exposed me to people, equipment, and techniques I would likely never otherwise have known. That's nice. She actually had a smile.
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+[41:22] It was her I'm going to kill everyone's smile, but it was still a smile. You know, that I call that that's uh that's improvement. That's your new you know, by the way, our New Year's resolution. I think uh, you know, Jack was here uh and he did not like it was to uh yell at each other less. I think we've so far it's been like a day, but no, it's been a week.
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+[41:37] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. What do you think?
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+[41:39] Good job, guys. Yeah, yeah, nice. Uh okay. You've inspired you've been he's like, Jack's like, why the hell would you not want to yell at each other? Yeah that's all the fun.
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+[41:48] Yeah, for 45 minutes. Yeah, yeah. You've inspired me to do a lot more cooking at home and more importantly, to really love it. That's really nice. I like that.
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+[41:54] A couple of questions. I just obtained a baking steel and love the results I'm getting with the modernist cuisine at home Neapolitan pizza dough recipe. What procedure and or recipe do you recommend for sauce on a standard Neapolitan pie? And two, do you have a quick Indian cookbook recommendation? I'm looking for something reliable but extremely basic.
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+[42:12] I'd like to read about ingredients uh technique and have some solid recipes for the basics you see in almost every Indian restaurant. Uh okay. Let me hit uh and then there's a third question I'm also gonna hit, but uh let me hit the Indian one first. I actually only own uh one Indian cookbook, and uh I bought it when I was in my early twenties, right after I graduated from college. Uh and it's called and it's really it's old, it's from the 80s.
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+[42:36] It's called uh uh by Yamuna Devi. It's called The Art of Uh Indian Vegetarian Cooking. And at the time it was this huge encyclopedic uh book, which is why I bought it. Uh and it's not gonna be it's not like simple by any means, but uh, and so I was like, wow, and I read it and it made a huge impression on me. Uh you know, but I thought maybe it's gonna be really, really dated.
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+[42:58] So I went to Amazon.com and I looked up uh and I looked it up and it was been it's been re-released and it still gets really good ratings. So in other words, people it's not as dated as I thought. I didn't have time to go back and reread it. But it focuses mainly on uh Indian vegetarian. Now, over the past ten years or so, I find that I very rarely buy um, I very rarely buy cookbooks on whole genres like that unless I already know nothing about them and I'm just trying to get a flavor for it, right?
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+[43:28] So in general, I would buy cookbooks that are on very specific regions or by a specific author that I want to uh work with. When I'm researching ingredients, uh like black salt, for instance, which is a really interesting uh Indian ingredient, or when I'm researching acetate, a hing or any of these things, I tend to r do a lot of internet research and not buy books, or if I buy books, they're technical books or um, you know, technical papers or historical papers. So I don't have very current knowledge. That said, obviously Matter Jaffery is very well known uh cookbook writer, uh, and I think she has some uh shorter books that might be good places to start, but I'd love someone to tweet in what their recommendations are uh on this on this subject. Um anyway, so I'm sorry I couldn't be more more of help with that, but just to give you an idea of how how I work usually, it's uh I'll I won't buy unless I know a writer is someone I really want to read, or unless it's entirely new to me, I tend not to buy that kind of cookbook.
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+[44:23] Also, but anyway, whatever. Uh on the baking steel, I know I've never used uh I spoke to Chris when they they were uh going into some sort of uh manufacturing when Monero's cuisine was going into some sort of manufacturing deal. I think it was with Chris. I think Chris was still with him at the time. With some guy in uh in uh New England who's making the steels for them.
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+[44:39] But the theory is that instead of using a baking stone, uh, what you can do is use this steel, and the steel has this same sort of heat wallop into your uh pizza dough that you and more at lower temperature and faster heating than a stone, and so use a steel instead of a stone. Uh I've never used it, so I don't really know about it. And as I like I'm all I'm all about not answering your questions today. I apologize. Uh apologize, Jeff.
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+[45:03] But the uh the uh I don't you do standard Neapolitan at home. My oven goes up between uh 840 and like 875, 880 Fahrenheit. Uh and I have two independent st independently heated stones, one in the bottom of my oven and one in the top of my oven plus gas. So when I'm making a pizza, I'll typically do a fairly I don't do as high hydration dough as like Jeffrey Steingarden recommends. I spoke to Jeffrey like what, two weeks ago, a few weeks ago, we saw him.
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+[45:34] And uh and I asked Jeffrey at that time, I was like, Jeffrey, do you still stand by your very high hydration pizza dough recipe for his his style of pizza? And he does. So if you go back, and you know, all of Jeffrey's stuff, even if you disagree with even if you disagree with him, uh, his writing is great. So go back and read his like high hydration dough. But I typically don't do a high hydrate super high hydration dough for my pizzas.
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+[45:56] I'm typically like, I don't know, 65% hydration, i.e. 65 uh 65 uh grams of water per 100 grams of flour in that ratio and a fairly high salt load, like uh like uh two 2% or something like that. Uh salt, I do very low yeast and I let it rise for a long time. So my typical thing is is that the evening before I'm gonna make pizza, I'll uh blend uh the you know, I'll do initially like a hundred percent hydration to get everything hydrated and then maybe let it sit for a little while with a very small amount of yeast. So if I'm making like four kilos of dough, I'll use one yeast packet, something like that.
+
+[46:33] Uh and then uh and then I'll I'll put the rest of the flour in with the salt, and then I'll break them into individual dough things, put them in quart containers, uh, you know, like a quarter full, and then and then let them sit for a couple of minutes to start and then throw them in my fridge and retard them overnight, pull them out like two, three hours, three hours before I'm gonna use them, and that's my typical dough, and it works pretty well. For sauce, I don't do anything that is uh traditional at all. I usually do uh I cook tomato paste and then uh blend in uh garlic and sometimes caper, and if I don't have vegetarians over anchovies uh and olive oil, and that's my usual uh style saucepase for red, or I'll pressure cook a whole bunch of garlic and uh blend it with uh uh in milk and then blend it along with the curd from the milk, olive oil, and basil. Um I usually put some onions in that too. Uh blend that for my for my green.
+
+[47:23] Uh I have a bunch of different ones, but I don't have any traditional kind of sauce. But the the one key thing is just don't add too much sauce. You know, small amount of sauce goes. You want a small amount of a very flavorful sauce so you don't waterlog your dough. I think that's the that's the key, and as high heat as you possibly can.
+
+[47:37] And that and someone's gonna be like, that guy knows nothing about pizzas. But I do make a whole boatload of pizzas. And the people seem to eat them. They seem to eat them. Just don't load it down.
+
+[47:45] The trick is not to load it down. Focus on the bread and don't load down. Focus on the quality of the crust and don't load it down with too much sauce. What do you think? Yeah.
+
+[47:53] Oh, if you're gonna use uh fresh, uh super fresh mozzarella, I get sp I I go to when I get it, I get from DiPalos and I ask them for the the it's still fresh, but uh fairly dense. It has a lot of the water squeezed out, so it doesn't make too much uh water. Be very careful with adding too much high water mozzarella to uh a cheese uh to a pizza because it can really water water log it out. So I mean people who use it, I think they use it sparingly, right? And they're doing it very quickly in an oven.
+
+[48:18] Whatever, but just be careful. Uh I mean not gonna hurt anyone. Okay, third, I'd like to start experimenting with adding salt to cocktails. If I keep salt solutions in a small dropper bottle, is there any downside to keeping those for a long period of time? Is there any degradation or food safety issue?
+
+[48:31] Also, what concentrations do you recommend starting with for cocktails? And can you recommend a specific drink where adding a bit of salt has a profound effect? We use 200 grams of salt per liter of water. Uh so uh, and that solution ain't nothing happening to it. We store it on the bar unrefrigerated for infinity, and there's no problem.
+
+[48:47] And we usually add one or two drops of that uh per cocktail, and um and that's about it. We add that that. Okay. No, that's it. What?
+
+[48:58] Alright, Daniel from Illinois. I will go into depth in my fried chicken technique next time. And if I have time, I'll tell you guys how I do my new lobster technique, which I think is really good. Uh, till next time, happy new year. Cooking Issues.
+
+[49:20] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[49:44] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Coming back at you live, and Jack is back today. Hey.
+
+[1:12] How you doing? Happy New Year, Jack. You too, man. Hey, I've got a standing offer out to the guy who made that theme song. Uh, you're welcome to come re-record it here anytime.
+
+[1:20] Really? Hang out? Yeah. Maybe during the show? Yeah, we just need a better recording of that song.
+
+[1:25] I mean, you're the audio guy. What's wrong with it? I don't know. A little garagey. It's it's great though.
+
+[1:30] What the hell? What the hell? I like it. Whatever. Anyway, alright, well, happy new year anyway.
+
+[1:35] Also. Uh Joe in the studio and as usual, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. What's up? Nothing. Oh, you know.
+
+[1:44] Live Tuesday radio show. So I'm gonna make it announcement. This is this is for Nastasha out there, people, because I also have a question to one of our listeners. Alright, go first. Go first, go.
+
+[1:53] My mom sent me a text and said, I would really like it if you knew Billy Joel. So if he's listening. If Nastasha helped me out. If Billy Joel is listening, that's a safe bet that this is not gonna happen. That's like more like if anyone listening has ever seen Billy Joel.
+
+[2:10] I've actually seen him live. I saw him live in this. Did you talk to him? He was not talking to anyone. He was at a food event like a number of years ago, and he was with uh, you know, Katie Lee, and she was the she was the person in charge.
+
+[2:21] He was just kind of standing in the background looking kind of irritated. But you know, not as irritated as when he pushed that piano off the stage. What was that? Russia? Really?
+
+[2:29] Wasn't that Russia? Are you guys out Billy Joel fans? There was that time he drove a car into a house, though. I love that. You're ruining my chances by bringing up.
+
+[2:35] No, that's all good. Okay, well, like sorry, Billy, we love you. Come on, man. I mean, like, I grew up, like Glass Houses was like one of the most uh influential albums of my uh of my youth. And I'm from Long Island, so there's that.
+
+[2:48] You practically are Billy Joel. That's right. Oh man. So anyway, so uh so okay, Nastasha, that was good sharing. Good sharing.
+
+[2:58] So uh this is one so uh um Nastasha never believes that we're gonna actually do anything ever unless we force ourselves to have uh deadline. So here it is. We're forcing ourselves to have uh a deadline. My deadline is that in one month's time, uh Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation will be filming uh uh our first Kickstarter for our first project. And we'll have it out in a month and a half.
+
+[3:20] Now listen, I'm not saying that you listeners should uh contribute to the Kickstarter when it comes out. Contribute to the Kickstarter. But uh I am saying you should tell everyone about it because we need to get uh this sucker funded. We're gonna start with a very simple to make uh for us, easy um piece of small equipment that anyone can buy that's not gonna be outrageously expensive, and we're hopefully gonna use uh that Kickstarter money to build that and also to fund uh our ability to hire someone, help us get some of our more complicated stuff out there. Think rotovab.
+
+[3:52] But no, we're not doing the roto vap on the first one. That's extremely complicated, but I'm just saying, like that's what we're that's what we're looking to do. So uh our deadline, our deadline now, and you can call us on it and call us bad people like you haven't already, uh, if we don't make it in a month and a half, right? Yes. And what is a month and a half from now?
+
+[4:07] It's like it would be March first. March first? No, April. March, April. Yeah, March 1st.
+
+[4:12] Well yeah, man. Okay, March 1st. So my birthday month. Woohoo! Right?
+
+[4:17] Anyway, okay. Uh so you think it's gonna work? You think we're gonna if we have a deadline, I think it'll work. Yes. So you have a deadline.
+
+[4:23] Wow. If n you know, listen, let me tell you something. If uh if Nastasha is not overtly pessimistic, it means that uh it means that we're probably in a We always have open-ended deadlines. Always. Always.
+
+[4:36] Because you don't believe in them. In what? Deadlines. I know I know I do. I believe in uh certain deadlines are hard deadlines.
+
+[4:42] Like when I was in the art when I was in the art community like a billion and a half years ago, it's like, hey, look, uh a show is going up, and if the show isn't up, you're shafted. You know what I mean? Dinner is a good deadline. That's why I like cooking. Hey, you know what?
+
+[4:55] It's time for dinner. We have to have food on the table. Good deadline, right? These like I I like BS deadlines don't work for me because if I know something's BS, a BS deadline is someone saying X, Y, or Z has to happen when I know full well that not only will it not happen, this is what happened. Everyone makes fake deadlines in the in the world, right?
+
+[5:15] And it's like it here's the thing. So, so what? So people are like, I need X, Y, and Z by X, Y date, and you're like, okay, and if you don't have it, then what? And there is no then what? That's the problem.
+
+[5:26] There is no then what. You know? And that's the problem with most BS deadlines. And that ruins me sometimes, but sometimes it helps me because people have a tendency to make decisions and pull the triggers on things before they have all the data in hand. So I'd always rather uh, you know, get more data.
+
+[5:41] But that's that's why uh that's why probably I don't have a lot of money. Yes. Hey, speaking of deadlines, yeah, we've got great news for you. What's that? Starting next week, Greenhorn Radio will be moving to 4 p.m., which means cooking issues can go until one.
+
+[5:56] Oh yeah! We're gonna have a full hour of cooking issues for you people. That's right. Yeah. Happy New Year.
+
+[6:03] Happy New Year to all the people who have to listen to us. I don't know why I guess no one has to. No one's like, I hope no one's strapped down in a chair and forced to listen to us. By the way, how's the uh new hunting show going before us? Oh, it's awesome.
+
+[6:13] Yeah? Yeah, you gotta meet him. Next week he's doing a show on the second amendment. So it'll be pretty intense. Yeah?
+
+[6:19] Yeah. Well, you know, I'd like to talk to him at some point about uh low temperature cooking and hunting. Yeah, he talks a bit about uh cooking venison and all that stuff. So maybe we could do a double header one week. Yeah, all right, stick around.
+
+[6:31] Okay, listen, I'm gonna have to rip through this because I don't have an hour yet. Daniel from last week, I didn't get to you in Illinois. My fried chicken recipe. Dave has talked about making fried chicken using low temperature for insurance to cook the chicken through before breading and frying. Can you go into more detail about this method?
+
+[6:45] I've also heard him mention boneless fried chicken. Tell me more. All right, first of all, if you want my actual recipe, uh almost my recipe, almost exactly my recipe, uh, go to uh Food and Wine, uh, June 2003, and it's published on uh on the webs. Uh my Dave Arnold, that's my name. Uh, my buttermilk fried chicken recipe, and you can get the the recipe.
+
+[7:08] The only they make a couple of things, like in in that recipe, I don't think they tell you to completely bone out the uh chicken. Because but I you know I do that because my wife doesn't like to eat uh chicken off the bone. She hates it when I talk about that because she she thinks I'm making her sound puny, but I don't really care. It's not that I'm making her sound puny, she doesn't like to eat chicken off the bone, so why would I serve it to her that way? She's the most important customer I have.
+
+[7:28] If she doesn't like it that way, why would I make it that way? So uh what I do is I buy whole chickens, I uh cut off the breasts. Currently, now that I have small First, actually you cut off the leg and thigh in one piece uh on both sides. Then I separate the uh thigh from the uh drumstick at the knuckle with a knife, take the thigh, uh drag the thigh along the two sides of the bone, expose the bone, put the point of the knife underneath the bone, free it from both sides, uh, then cut off that little piece of like knuckle cartilage that sits on the thing. That's the thigh.
+
+[8:00] I then take the uh leg bone, take kitchen the drumstick, take kitchen shears, hold the fat part of the drumstick towards my face, put the shears into the into the knuckle area against the bone, and go snip, snip, snip, like four or five snips around the bone in a circular fashion. That cuts off a lot of the sinews. Then I take the shears, bam, and I cut off the uh the little nubbin at the end that you hold on to when you normally eat, and I reach into the other side, twist and pull out the bone along with some of the sinew and very little meat. The only trick there is making sure you don't uh flick bone fat fragments into the uh ball into the little leg ball when it's done. And the awesome thing about those is they fry up like little spheres, and you can eat straight through them.
+
+[8:40] You get no reddening of the meat around the bone because there ain't no bone. And you get a lot more because I hate looking at drumsticks. People are like, I love the drumstick, and then they pick up the drumstick and they only eat two or three bites off the meat because they don't want to gnaw on the bone. Nastasha. She's not even listening.
+
+[8:55] She's not even called. It's true though. It's true, right? Aren't you one of those people who like takes two or three bites off the drumstick, loves the drumstick meat but only takes two or three bites off of it? Yeah, sure.
+
+[9:06] Whatever. She's not a little bit of a big thing. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, all right, right. Whatever.
+
+[9:09] Whatever, whatever. So then, so you have the boneless thigh and the boneless, uh, blah blah. And because I learned listening to Jackie Peeps, that's the Jacques Popin for all you folk out there. Uh, then I just like take out the uh wishbone really quickly with two slices and a yank, although Nils doesn't do that when he does it. I cut off the breast on both sides, leaving the um leaving the tender intact.
+
+[9:27] I don't bother. I used to take the sinew out. I don't bother anymore. I really don't. You know, that little sinew that runs along the tender, but some people still take it out, whatever.
+
+[9:34] And now that I have little kids, the breast is kind of too large, so I separate it in half because they some, you know, one likes the breast, the other one likes the dark meat. Dark meat's the best. Uh okay. So now you have the parts of the chicken boneless. Uh I used to do then a full marinade and milk with salt and sugar uh for four hours and then uh dry off on a rack and then uh fry at a fairly low temperature so that it cooks all the way through.
+
+[9:59] Now, instead of the brine procedure, uh I take the thighs, I find that they're too flat if they're uh let left flat, so I I fold them back into a full thigh shape so that they're a little meatier, uh, and tie them with one thing of uh string because I don't I don't take the time at home to meat glue it. You could meat glue it if you were doing it for a restaurant presentation. And then uh put them into ziplocks, uh ziploc bags with a small amount of salted sugared milk. Uh and then I cook them. I cook higher than I would like if a high-end people usually like their chick, super high-end people usually like their chicken a little bit lower temperature.
+
+[10:34] Most people like it a little bit higher, so if I was gonna cook for like some fancy low-temperature jockey, I would cook the thigh, the the wing, the thigh, and the uh drumstick meat to 65. At home, I honestly, that's Celsius. At home, I actually do 66 or 665 for about uh 45 minutes uh to an hour. I then drop the temperature down, I leave those guys in, I drop the temperature down to about 64 or 64 and a half. Uh you can do 63 or 64 on the on the dot, but again, I'll take it a little bit higher because like a lot of people like it, just that little bit more done.
+
+[11:13] Anyway, uh then I throw the breast the white meat in uh in zippies uh for another hour, pull it out of the bag, drain the milk, don't lose the milk, don't throw it away. That milk is awesome, like even though it's salty, if you combine that with another stock, it can make a good base for a sauce as long as the sauce doesn't have uh stock uh salt in it, right? So I save all those juices that come out of the zippy, and then I put the hot pieces of meat out on racks to let them flash off their extra moisture. That's the key to frying stuff out when you're gonna do low temp. Now the things are cooked uh all the way through, right?
+
+[11:46] Then I do uh flour, then a buttermilk egg uh along with baking soda, baking powder, and some spices. Uh salt you put the spices in the freaking buttermilk, not in the flour, because A, it's impossible to dose in the flour, and B, you're gonna throw a lot more of that flour away. Anyway, so uh flour into the buttermilk thing, uh back into the flour, and then fry at the higher temperature that you would normally use for french fries, potato chips, whatever else you're making that we wouldn't do potato chips that way, but anyway, French fries, onion rings, whatever else you're making that day. And that's what I do. And while that stuff is cooking off in the low temperature, I take the backs uh and uh all the other parts, hack them up into small pieces, sear them off, and then make a uh pressure cooked uh chicken stock.
+
+[12:27] So I usually, when I do fried chicken, I end up with a milk a salty milk stock that I can use uh in certain soup preparations, a regular stock, and then a boatload of fried chicken. Yeah? Yes. Okay. Uh Billy Rose writes in and says, oh, by the way, if you have questions, uh call in your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[12:46] That's 7184972128. All right, Billy Rose uh sent in a Twitter a little bit late for last week's show, but here we got it today. I said I'd get to it. Uh cooking issues, love the show. Uh the hammer is my hero.
+
+[12:56] She should be your hero. Yeah. Uh is this Billy Joel writing in? No, Billy Billy Rose, but uh close enough. Wow.
+
+[13:04] Nice. All right, strong. Uh the hammer is uh is my hero. Uh you meaning me. Uh you are a bubbles enthusiast.
+
+[13:10] Can you speak to the health benefits slash detriments of drinking them all the time? Uh I do drink them all the time. Uh and there are some people who I guess are concerned about people drinking only bubbles all the time. However, the good news is uh that I have not found any research to show that uh bubbly water hurts you. Uh in fact, uh there's a lot of studies that show that it can be that bubbly water, uh if it's a mineral water, can be somewhat beneficial.
+
+[13:35] I don't really believe those studies one way or the other. I don't believe and Nastasha's giving her giving her like someone just passed me a vegan dish head shake of of disdain, right? Right. Yeah. Uh but there is a st uh a couple of studies out there are interesting.
+
+[13:48] The one thing is to say it's let's separate for for a minute the stuff that's in a soda from uh carbonation. All right. So clearly, if if I I mean I'm pro, I'm not anti-soda, we've had this discussion about soda bands before. You shouldn't consume a boatload of uh of sugary soda. It should not be your primary form of hydration.
+
+[14:11] And I think the issue is when it becomes your primary form of hydration, right? Uh so the butt I drink mainly seltzer, which is, you know, and and a soda would be a treat. In fact, I tend to only drink well, whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. But the the issue, the only real health uh thing other than the whole discussion of sugar in a carbonated beverage is people who consume colas, whether they be sugared or not. Cola is uh one of the is is one of the things that's flavored with phosphoric acid.
+
+[14:38] And uh phosphoric acid is is characteristic, in fact, of colas, and it's that dry mineral uh acidity that you find in colas and all you like cola, right, Sas? Yeah. But you don't like phosphoric acid in most other things. Right. Yeah.
+
+[14:51] Um fair. Yeah. See, I didn't even go crazy on it. I think that's fair. Uh but if you make a cola without phosphoric acid, it doesn't taste like cola.
+
+[14:59] You're like, what is this BS cola rip both? Because it doesn't have that phosphoric acid mineral hit that you would normally get. Um phosphoric acid, I don't know whether the current data is is good or bad, but there's a lot of research that shows out there that uh women in particular who consume large quantities of phosphoric acid in the form of cola can have problems uh with uh bone density because there's a link between calcium depletion or at least uh absorption of calcium in the diet, and therefore uh you know, because you know that if you don't take in enough calcium that that your body removes calcium from your bones. Did you know that? And like for instance, if you're pregnant, if you don't take enough calcium, your baby wins and your body will remove calcium from your body and deposit it into the new baby's body.
+
+[15:41] Wow. Yeah, anyway. Uh so phosphoric acid can uh at least some of the research indicates that that they can have an effect. So, you know, you want to be sure that you have enough calcium if you're consuming boatloads of um phosphoric acid and you're a woman. And there are studies uh in 1994 that came out that showed that even I think girls can uh like when I say girls mean young girls, can get uh a higher incidence of fractures if they consume a lot of cola.
+
+[15:59] Um however, there was a carbonated soft drink uh test uh to see whether there's any risk of esophageal uh cancer, specifically adenocarcinoma. Came out in 2006 out of Sweden, and uh it was called uh carbonated soft drinks and risk of esophageal adenocarcinoma, a population-based control study. Uh, and it found no link. Uh in fact, it found a non-statistically significant uh decrease in the in uh esophageal cancer in the people who drank a lot of uh soda, uh a lot of carbonated drinks, but I'm not gonna report it because it's not statistically significant, right? Boom.
+
+[16:36] What do you think? Good? Good. And I'll tell you what, here's some health benefits. That stuff is delicious.
+
+[16:40] So I drink a lot of it. You have to force flat water down my throat. I love me some bubbly water. I think bubbly water is the most refreshing thing that has ever been created. And I drink a whole boatload of it, and I feel a lot better as a person.
+
+[16:53] So that's a good health effect. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, Yeah. You drink bubbly water.
+
+[16:57] Oh, yeah. We have seltzer on tap at the lab, I have seltzer on tap at home. You know, I I have my I don't know, it's a good product. Like uh, what's it called? The soda stream.
+
+[17:05] Although I don't use a soda stream. I think it's done a lot for bringing carbonated beverages to people's houses in a nice kind of easily deliverable package. They're everywhere now. I saw one in Best Buy. Yeah, they're everywhere.
+
+[17:14] That's crazy. You know, you go to people's houses now, and like you know, you hear the farting sound coming out of the kitchen, and you know they have the soda stream and they bust out the you know the farting sound? Mm-hmm. And uh and you're like, you know what? It's like I have my issues with it, like I don't think it's technically perfect, but it makes a good so sparkly water.
+
+[17:31] You know what the downside is? Most people don't filter the water that they put in the soda stream, so they put flawed, crappy chlorinated water into their soda stream, and it comes out flawed, crappy, chlorinated uh uh uh bubbly water. Anyway, whatever. Uh oh, interesting. Another should we take a break or should we keep going?
+
+[17:48] Let's take a break. All right, take a break, coming back with cooking issues! You're listening to Beyond Thunderdome by Diesel Boy on cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network.org. Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinarycenter.com.
+
+[18:52] Every Tuesday at 12 p.m. You can call food scientist Dave Arnold and ask any question you want. John from Chicago, you're on the air. Hey, hey, hey. Without glutamic acid, you die.
+
+[19:08] It is a matter of taste, but there's a lot more fat in sausage than you think. Get ahead of the curve. Tune into cooking issues every Tuesday at 12 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network.org. Holy crap, I sound like a nut.
+
+[19:21] Yes. I mean it doesn't make any sense to play that on your show, but that's we're running that on other shows, and I wanted to show it to you. Oh my god, it sounds like a lunatic. You are a lunatically. Here's the other thing, though.
+
+[19:31] Not really a food scientist. Have no degree in food scientists. What about no hammer? No hammer? No hammer?
+
+[19:41] For me to find a succinct clip of you on this show speaking from like more than a second would take a long time. No, she's this mistake. Right. Okay, that's how I'll end it. Nope.
+
+[19:51] This is a good time to address this, though. So no food scientists, what would you go with? I don't know. Well, you know. Like my my thoughts on myself aren't aren't publishable on the air.
+
+[20:00] I see. But uh I don't know. What uh Nastash will think of something. That's isn't that what you're isn't that part of your job? Figure out what we're called.
+
+[20:06] Um this is coming from the woman that hasn't thought of a title for herself in three years. Okay. That's her title in the uh in the uh in the Booker Dax Cooker cooking issues kind of pantheon. Air apparent. To what we don't know.
+
+[20:20] Listen, on the second commercial break, we've got to have one now because I gotta hear my fish is fish. I can't go a week without hearing my fish is fish. Right or wrong. Right or wrong. Alright.
+
+[20:29] Right. The answer to that is right. Right. Okay. Uh oh, I'm I met him in the bar.
+
+[20:34] Next next fellow. Uh Kyriako uhmoglue. I'm gonna pronounce that wrong. Someone write in and tell me how to pronounce that. Okay.
+
+[20:41] Um very interesting. Uh was talking to me uh about something on the Twitter. Um okay, so he can't consume grapefruit juice, right? Uh, because uh he has uh a problem with uh uh cytochrome uh P four fifty three A four, uh a K AKA C Y P three A four, which is an enzyme uh that is inhibited by grapefruit juice. And if uh that ha that's what that's the primary reason why grapefruit juice uh you can't take it if, for instance, you have uh are taking statins or certain other drugs.
+
+[21:17] Because this whole uh battery of enzymes, right, the um cytochrome P uh 450 series of enzymes uh does a lot to remove or to modify or to get rid of or to break down uh drugs that are taken into the system, right? A lot of them. And uh, like I say, grapefruit juice can affect it. And so that's why a lot of times if you're on certain medications, you can't have grapefruit juice. Uh interestingly, it's uh been uh the the compound in grapefruit juice um is uh bergamotin, along with some other things that are similar to bergamotin.
+
+[21:49] Bergamotin is the uh character one of the characteristic oils in bergamot, and we all know that bergamot's the main flavor in Grapefruit? Earl gray tea. Earl gray tea. Bergamot, the fruit is the main flavor in Earl Gray tea. It's what distinguishes Earl gray tea it's a flavored tea flavored with bergamot, peels.
+
+[22:08] Um so uh the question I always had, and I I'm not sure if it was ever addressed or not, is should you also abstain from Earl gray tea if you can't have grapefruit? Interesting question. I don't know if anyone knows the answer to it. Um however, I've also wondered whether or not uh clarification, specifically the clarification techniques that we use, whether or not they remove um whether or not they remove uh the bergamotin. I've never you know put it through a sample to test it to see whether it has, but um apparently um Kyriaco was able to uh uh to have this product you can't normally have, which would lead me to believe that we have removed whatever active principle it is, it shafts it, which means we probably have removed the bergamotin.
+
+[22:49] So that's uh seems to me to be an interesting uh finding. I don't have any uh equipment to uh further delve into it, but you know the the only issue is you could never use it as a technique to um you can never use it as a technique to make uh grapefruit juice that it drinks like regular grapefruit juice but is um free of the bergamoton because it doesn't taste this the clarified grapefruit juice doesn't taste the same as regular grapefruit juice. Now, you might be able to simulate it by taking, for instance, the pulp that comes out of great uh orange juice when they make pulp like pulpless uh orange juice and adding that pulp to a clarified grapefruit juice. I don't know. Interesting.
+
+[23:26] But anyway, uh I was super duper interested by that, so thanks for sharing that with me. Um Joseph W writes in uh on the Twitter at cooking issues, we'll listen to your show, and you mentioned duck milk, an emulsion of duck stock and fat. Seems cool, but what use would it be for? And you know what, Joseph? I just don't know.
+
+[23:45] I never thought of a good use for it. That's why I don't do it all the time. No, but you know what? Like to honestly, though, like you could make very thin uh soups, soups that have like a lot of mouthfeel without with very little fat. Like that's what it's good for.
+
+[23:57] The same way that milk adds a great mouthfeel and doesn't have a lot of fat, you could do the same thing with a duck milk, emulsify something in, make a uh a soup or a sauce that has really good mouthfeel without a lot of fat. But I, you know, I I it's the my homogenizer that I have is so horrible sounding that I very rarely uh do I uh dork with it, you know? Yeah. Um yeah, at this point I'm old enough, it doesn't bother me hardly at all, but seriously, I'm around enough people who are younger than me that they just run around. And I never had the little box shield that they sell now uh that you can put around it to um to make it a little more tolerable in the kitchen.
+
+[24:33] Okay. Uh Jonathan Hunter writes in. Uh hey David Nastasha, I have a question about how to get my smoker to get a little bit hotter. It is heated by electric elements at a max uh max temperature that I'm able to get in the box is around 210 degrees Fahrenheit. I have an external smoke chamber that doesn't give off much heat.
+
+[24:49] I use a Johnson control to regulate the temperature, but the elements inside are only able to push out so much heat. Um I'm trying to get the temperature up to about 250 Fahrenheit. The box is well insulated, so adding insulation won't help much. I'm thinking that some other kind of heat source is my solution. Just wondering if you have suggestions of how I can make this work.
+
+[25:06] Uh thanks, Jonathan Hunter. Okay, well, first thing you gotta do is you gotta look at the wattage of your uh heat element. Right. So I I'm assuming when you're the way you're talking about it, that you the way your setup works is you have an insulated box, maybe a fridge, I'm guessing, and then uh in the bottom of it you have a traditional smoker style hot plate setup, and then on the outside of it you have a smoke generator, and the smoke generator is generating its smoke, and then you have a thermocouple on the inside of the of the insulated box, the fridge unit that's attached to your uh hot plate, right? So in a system like this, assuming I have it right, what's going on is the smoke generator is generating smoke, and the smoke generator is relatively cool.
+
+[25:47] So you're ignoring it as a heating device, and you're doing all of your control via the hot plate that's on the inside of your uh insulated box slash fridge unit. Okay. If I'm not right, then my advice that I'm about to give you is not going to be accurate. Uh if I am right, right, then just get a bigger heating element, right? Just buy a bigger hot plate or add in um uh add parallel, not in series, add parallel another heating element to the control loop, assuming that the relays that are used to switch it off and on with your controller can handle the extra amperage that's going through it.
+
+[26:20] Also, like if you want to be strictly speaking, like pleasant about it, I would add a um I would add a plate over the top of the heating element so you're not getting any crazy radiant heat coming off of it to you know from the elements to kind of affect the the thing. You could add on the inside a very small fan to move the heat around, but I don't like adding, I don't want to add anything because it's gonna mess up probably the dampening and other things inside of your smoker. But if you need to, you can go something like that. But I'm not sure if I have your setup uh exactly right. But whatever, right?
+
+[26:53] Right. Okay. Uh Jesper writes in about tomato clarity. Hey Dave and Nastasha, my name is Jesper, and since I'm living in Sweden, it is more convenient to have my questions asked by email instead of calling into your show. Well, alright, fair.
+
+[27:08] Uh that said, my question is related to an application where I use a centrifuge but cannot fully achieve the result I'm looking for. Uh the background, the goal. I want to make a transparent tomato. Alright. We have a lot of people asking about tomatoes recently in the centerfuge, right?
+
+[27:23] Yeah, strange. Uh, my approach is to use fresh tomatoes that are first peeled. I've used canned whole peeled tomatoes uh with the juice uh remove, but that not to give the desired result, but this is of course related to the type of tomato, it's ripeness, etc. Also, you know, uh they add calcium to that, which strengthens the uh pectin and it's gonna make it harder for you to spin out. That's why they put calcium chloride into it, and that's why um that's why canned tomatoes are always firm no matter what, and why if you self-can a tomato and you don't add calcium chloride or some other form of pectin strengthening thing to it, uh they turn to mush.
+
+[27:54] Just you know, for your info. Two, puree the tomatoes in a vita prep. Good call. Uh I'm glad to see someone in Sweden's using vita preps because you know that a lot of people in the Europe they don't have the Vitaprep. They use uh they use a thermal mix.
+
+[28:06] Okay. Three, filter puree through a sieve. Unnecessary with a centrifuge. Do you want to keep I would keep all that puree in? In fact, sometimes I find that having extra solids can uh help uh kind of compact everything down into into a solid puck.
+
+[28:21] So I wouldn't put it through, and you're gonna really reduce your um your your yield that way. Four, remove the air uh from the blending of the filtered tomato puree by using a vacuum chamber. Uh here I wonder if this could be one issue since this method gives a much stronger color of the tomato puree, which in turns counteracts the desired transparency. No, it doesn't give the puree any more color, it just removes the lack of color that the air introduces, right? You're when you like no, yes, no, you you should de-aerate.
+
+[28:48] The reason why, if you don't de-aerate when you're centrifuging tomatoes, you'll get floaty air things on the top that are really going to cloud your stuff up. Already you've made one thing that you're missing. Like you say in the end, should I use Pectanex Ultra SPL? Yes. Like right before while you're pureeing the tomatoes in a Vitapep, you should be adding Pectanex Ultra SPL enzyme, which is available, I believe, even in Sweden because they have shopping to all parts of the world for reasonable amounts.
+
+[29:13] Isn't that what they used to say? What was the copy back in the day when modernist cuisine when you guys used to be friends with them and they used to sponsor the show? Uh anyway, they have moderate, moderate, modest shipping, cheap shipping to uh many parts of the world. Get some Pectanex Ultra SPL from them. Um blend it in the blender until it is warm.
+
+[29:30] You're never gonna get uh I mean, you have a higher G uh centrifuge than I do, but you're gonna get a much better, much better yield and a much uh more clear product by using Pectanex Ultra SPL to break down the pectin. Okay, back to where you were. Centerfuge for two hours at 5,250 uh G's, the highest setting of my centrifuge. You don't need to go anywhere near that long if you have a uh if you add the Pectanex Ultra SPL. You only need to go for like 15 minutes, and that's like, you know, that that's that's about it.
+
+[30:00] You can go a little bit longer, it might increase your yield marginally. That's all you need to do. Uh six, uh you jellify it with uh kapac carrageenin, um, because it's transparent, and then put it in a mold that gives the uh shape of the tomato. The result is okay, a yellowish color, but far from perfect. So I'm wondering if you give me some help to achieve full transparency of the tomato sphere.
+
+[30:20] Okay, now look at it's always gonna be a little bit yellow because uh transparency and colorlessness, right? You gotta always separate those things in your head. Centrifugation is never gonna spin the color out of something unless the color is only contained in the solids and not in the solution. So center like the actual color molecules in solution are never gonna come out. You're never gonna get it to be colorless, right?
+
+[30:48] Uh so there's always going to be a yellow, uh yellow color in the uh in this in the supernatant, in the in the juice, right? But it should be crystal clear, right? So you gotta figure out whether or not, and if you follow the instructions with Pectin X and you spin it for a long time and you de-aerate, your tomato juice will be crystal clear. If you let it sit for a day and a half, uh it will probably throw off a little more flock, and then you could spin it again, and it will be even more crystal clear. However, it will still be yellow, but you should be able to read a newspaper through it.
+
+[31:22] Uh, and that's what I mean by clarity. The only way to get it actually transparent, like when I'm sorry, see you and I make the mistake. The only way to get it clear with no color would be to do a distillation technique, but it's much more complicated, and you need to re add back the acids and the sugars. I've done it, uh, but it's a pain in the butt, it never tastes the same as the actual uh blah blah ha, you know, the actual tomato stuff. Yeah?
+
+[31:44] Alright. Let's should we take our second commercial break and come back and bang out uh like two more questions? Sure. Sick it break! And once again, this is Fish Is Fish is vodka by the meatballers on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[32:36] Oh yeah. Right? That's like a totally different feel. That's our oh yeah. This has been a sloppily engineered show.
+
+[32:44] I'll just go ahead and say that. Oh, we see. Never, never misses an opportunity to agree with someone when they're putting themselves down. That's right. She's never missed one.
+
+[32:58] Ever. I did play the applause for you too. I know, as I said, I did. And there she's downhill from there. And there, and there she like, she like gets on the bus.
+
+[33:04] She's like the only person, she develops a catapult to throw you under the bus she's driving. Yeah. It's rough. Uh yeah, rough, really rough. Okay.
+
+[33:14] Uh Dave Kleiman writes in who has the Twitter handle. I am a fractal. Which I guess, you know, well, maybe not technically. Anyway, I'm a fractal. I I love fractals.
+
+[33:23] You know, I I grew up uh uh being like a fractal lover as soon as I learned about them. In fact, I almost got a job working for a summer in uh Mandelbras lab back when he was alive. Uh and I was a kid. But I like like I I didn't know Fortran or any of that stuff, and I didn't re whatever, anyway, whatever. Fortran.
+
+[33:40] My dad still writes programs in Fortran, if you can believe it. For all of you who know what the hell I'm talking about. Woo Fortran. Cooking issues. What about all those other cool things you can do with Pectin X Ultra SPL, which we just talked about, like French fries and peeling fruit.
+
+[33:53] First of all, uh all of the information on that stuff will be back up on the. I know I've said this a billion times, but the guy who now is in is going to take over, making the blog, reappear in the blogosphere is coming to the lab tomorrow to speak to us, and hopefully we can straighten all this crap out pretty soon, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you know what?
+
+[34:13] I'm sick of hearing about it. You know what I mean? I need to get it fixed. It's my fault. So I deserve all of the uh approbrium that's been heaped upon me, but still.
+
+[34:21] Um so SPL, uh, like anything else, SPL is uh it's a great tool. Now I use it every day uh for clarification and a centrifuge. And by far and away, that's the most um that's the the most use that I get out of it. However, even if you're not going to clarify something and you don't have a centrifuge, SPL is still really useful. For instance, let's say you're not going to clarify something, but you have a puree, and that puree is too thick for you to use in the application.
+
+[34:53] It's just making your products too thick. Well, you know why that fruit puree or that vegetable puree is too thick? It's the pectin. It's the pectin. So what you do is you add SPL to it, you uh incubate it at 40, and it'll break down the pectin and it will thin out your product considerably and allow you to use that product in more applications.
+
+[35:14] So uh I've done that from time to time. I've also even clarifying in places that don't have centrifuges. I've hit stuff with Pectinex before I uh set it with agar to do an agar clarification because my yield will be much higher if I use Pectinx beforehand. Pectinex also dissolves uh the white parts of citrus fruits, the albedo. And so you can make these amazingly beautiful, like you know, you don't i i it's not um like a complete miracle.
+
+[35:43] People think that you know you just dip something in this pectinex uh enzyme and all of a sudden you have mandarin orange slices. No, it's a little more work than that, right? It's a little more work. However, you can make supremes of citrus fruits. It doesn't really work on lime so well for some reason, but anyway, you can make supremes of citrus fruits that are gorgeous.
+
+[36:00] Now, you can make pretty good supremes of fruits anyway, but they have cuts uh in them, and the cuts kind of mar it when it's on a plate and it's supposed to look like like really you know, back in the day you would have liked a kind of a cut supreme because it would have been seen as kind of like the artistry of the cutting, but nowadays, like I think people are more keyed up on seeing like a perfect piece of fruit that looks almost like it grew that way, and so not cutting across any of the little vesicle things on the inside is really kind of baller. But the most baller one is uh you can get suprems of things like pomelos that have so much pith in them, they're very difficult to work with. Now, the trick about it is you have to take the peel off and then break the fruit in half and then typically into quarters to get all the pectinx into those areas uh where the white is. Otherwise, it's just gonna dissolve the stuff on the outside and not penetrate very far. Uh so you have to be careful with that.
+
+[36:48] If you're taking uh things like grapefruit peels and orange peels, you can add the pectinx uh to them, soak them, and then toothbrush off all of the white, all of the albedo, and you get these super thin, super gorgeous uh peels that you can then candy or use for other things. We used to do that quite a bit. Uh pectin's also the structure on the outside of things like uh potatoes. And so when you're trying to do disrupt this surface of it without disrupting the entire thing, we do a soak of it and it produces a much better crust on things like French fries. Um, we learned that you know years ago.
+
+[37:19] Uh I read a uh technical paper on it, and then we developed our French fry recipe uh based on using pectinx. Uh, you know, modernist cuisine disrupts the surface using ultrasounds, we disrupt it using pectinx, but it's it's good for that. I've heard other people have um other uses for pectinx, but any time that there is pectin and you want to make that pectin go away, pectinex is a good thing to use. Um, uh we had a message in from uh Anjali. I will not re read the message over the air, uh, but uh we'll give you a holler maybe next time we're in the Bay Area if uh if we have time.
+
+[37:56] Uh and uh say howdy to uh your boyfriend, and I apologize to you specifically that he made you spend your vacation together uh completing uh the back catalog of our uh podcast. And and you're right. Yikes. Ouch. I had someone else like send that and saying that they spent sp you know, had their vacation, they had a car trip and they like they listened to a bunch of these.
+
+[38:19] I was like, my God. Sounds like a stressful vacation. I know it, right? Yeah. And I believe my response to uh that gentleman on the Twitter was my wife like doesn't my well but you know what the good thing about it is?
+
+[38:29] Uh if you listen enough, you could probably tune it out. But it took my wife maybe three years to be able to completely tune me out. I mean, completely tune me out. Is that the mission of the show to train people to tune you out? Maybe.
+
+[38:41] Maybe that's maybe that's what we're doing here. Right? Right? 110 episodes. This is a lot of Dave Arnold.
+
+[38:47] Yeah. It's it's a quite a lot, uh, quite a lot of uh of uh Dave Marlon. Um okay. Uh did I talk about my my lobster technique in in or did I say I was gonna talk about it, never talked about it. You never talked about it.
+
+[38:58] Oh, I never talked about it. Very good. All right. So uh since I don't have a blog right now, what did it just go silent? Weird.
+
+[39:04] Anyway, uh since I don't have a blog right now, I'm gonna and uh for those of you that don't know it, I spend a lot of time worrying about uh anesthetizing fish and crustaceans uh prior to dispatching them uh and like and figuring out exact techniques to um kill fish and uh and other things like crustaceans to make them taste uh best. And the the short answer is is that the least amount of suffering or whatever that means, the least amount of stressful the stressful stimuli before uh you know slaughter. And so we won't go into whether or not it's actual pain or suck, because I'm like that's not the that's a very interesting argument, but it's not what we're talking about here. Okay. Uh the less stress from a physical standpoint that they go through uh prior to slaughter, the the better they taste.
+
+[39:48] And that's been true also with lobsters. Now that the it's a kind of a bit of a pain in the butt to um anesthetize lobsters. Not that hard. You can get all the stuff for the Whole Foods, use clove oil, anesthetize, and we've done it many, many times. We've done lots of side by side taste tests.
+
+[40:03] But the interesting test that Nils and I ran back in the day was uh, what about the old thing about shoving a knife through the lobster and cutting it in half at the head? And a lot of people shy away from this just because they're squeamish. That's not really a good reason to shy away from something because you're squeamish. You know, like in other words, it's kind of like, you know, you catch a mouse in a glue trap and then you just throw it away alive because you don't you'd rather do that than to see it squashed in a trap, right? But you're actually better if you just squash it in the trap and kill it right at the get go.
+
+[40:34] That's actually more humane, even though it's more difficult for you to deal with than throwing away the live mouse in the glue trap, which is not a good thing to do, right? Who feels that that's more difficult? What? Like the dead mouse in the trap. Anytime you see the blood or whatever.
+
+[40:49] Oh, but imagine the suffering in the trash on the glue trap alive. I had to throw out a rat somewhere, I won't mention where, and there were a bunch of maggots underneath it. That was really rough. But it was dead though, right? Yeah, it was dead.
+
+[41:03] Like let's say you use glue traps, right? It's far it's far more humane. It was under my chair. What? We'll use like I can't mention right found it.
+
+[41:10] Well, it's it's under your chair still. He couldn't deal with it, so it's still there. Uh that's why it smells so fruity in here. Uh no, but uh if you can't if let's say you use glue traps, which I'm not advocating, if you use glue traps, like uh let's more accurately, more people would throw it away than drown the drown the mouse. Or break step on it and break this back.
+
+[41:28] Right. Both of which are more humane. Anyways, that's not what I'm talking about. So that well it is, kind of. So like the knife, even though you feel worse shoving the knife through the lobster's head, is a quick way to dispatch it.
+
+[41:39] The trick with a lobster is lobster have ganglia running, uh, running all like different it's not a central nervous system the same way we have a central nervous system. So you can't just shove a knife through, like you shove a knife through our brain and we're pretty much done. But the lobster, you have to like bisect a bunch of ganglion that go uh around the esophagus up through the top and around, right? Uh all along. Uh so anyway, but you do that, and it turns out that they taste very clean, very akin to uh the ones that we've anesthetized, but they've lost a lot of their flavor because when you kill a lobster that way, it leaks uh its internal fluids, which are called hemolith, and that has flavor, and so you're losing the flavor.
+
+[42:14] Uh a while ago, uh one of my last blog posts, I said, well, what if we wrap the what if we wrap the lobster up so that it doesn't lose its uh stuff as you cook it? It's vital juices as you cook it, and the results were inconclusive. Here's what I did uh recently, the last time I did a lobster test, and it was entirely successful, and this is the way now I advocate cooking uh lobsters. Get a Pyrex baking dish or anything that's you know non-absorptive. Uh stick a small wooden block underneath the uh lobster's uh head area, put the lobster down on the wooden block.
+
+[42:46] The wooden block is so that your knife doesn't get ruined. Shove an uh put the knife uh on the back of the carapace, uh, you know, which is the you know body part, uh, you know, you know, behind and rear of the eyes, and shove the knife through and completely bisect the front of the animal. If you completely bisect the front of the animal, the hemolith is going to spill into the pyrex, right? So you're preserving all of those juices in the pyrex, right? Then what I do is you carefully take the knife, you run it around the tail, you remove the tail, you take a knife, you s you cut up the cartilage things on the underneath, you remove the tail in one piece, cut up the tail shell, throw it in a pot.
+
+[43:20] Then you um then you cut, take off the claws, I leave the knuckle meat inside of uh inside of the knuckle things by separate them and let all of the juices that are come out as you do this go into the pyrex. Take the claws, I uh cut around the claws to expose the meat, but leave them in the claws because they're very delicate. Right? There's a picture on my Twitter account you can go look at. So now you have exposed claw meat, knuckle meat.
+
+[43:43] Uh I I take all the small legs and cut them up in small pieces, throw them in the pot with the chopped up pieces of tail shells. I then take the body uh and I chop I remove the gills from it, and then I chop it into small pieces and I throw it in the pot with butter. I then take the take the whole thing, I bring it up in temperature, and I get the butter cooked out of it for about 15 minutes. You don't want to cook too long, you want to start pulling out calcium, all that stuff, 15 minutes in the butter, uh, and then throw in uh the juices from the Pyrex, reduce it down a little bit, uh, and then put strain that sucker so there's not shell pieces, right, into a Vitaprep, blend it in the Vitapep to like emulsify a little bit, and bag the meat from the lobster in a ziploc with that stuff in the butter, and I throw that into simmering water. Uh, you don't want to boil it, you gotta you gotta turn the pot off because Ziplocks can't take boiling water.
+
+[44:35] But as long as you're not in there that long and you never actually boil it, and the then then the pots are turned off so it can't boil afterward, it's fine, and that's a really good temperature for lobster. Let it cook for like depends on how you like it. I my we like it a little more done than most people, so we cook it like maybe 10 minutes that way. Uh eight, eight, ten, ten minutes. And then pull it out, and then this the sauce is still delicious in there, and it has a pure, clean, briny taste of the ocean.
+
+[45:02] It is delicious. That's the way I now cook lobster and cooking issues. Dave. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:29] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center dot com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from twelve to twelve forty five. Actually, are we uh we we might be able to go to one today.
+
+[1:14] Yeah. Hello! Oh Extended Edition Cooking Issues here, live with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and Jack and Joe in the engineering room. Hi guys. What's up?
+
+[1:24] Hi. Uh yeah, uh so uh I had something I I I actually headbanged my headphones off during the uh during the intro there. Maybe we should tighten up our headphones, huh? Yeah. Well, speaking of Joel, I kinda wanted to read this email he sent me.
+
+[1:36] He's uh he's thrilled we're playing the song. He wants to take us off maybe on that offer and do a live recording. Then he says he's got all these other tracks he wants to give us, including a Harold McGee tribute song and other stuff he's written about pigs. He says, I've been writing songs for a long time now. My wife hates them.
+
+[1:54] Let's hope you like it. I want to hear the Harold McGee. I I wanna d can we just like get a copy of the Harold McGee? How fast can we get a copy of the Harold McGee tribute song? Like right now, you can get a little bit more than a little bit.
+
+[2:04] Like right now, Joel, if you're listening. We need that right now. Joel, if you're out there, let me see you dance. For those of you that listened to the Princess Black album back in the day. So uh anyway, so and also apparently we had like uh some sort of a fire a firebrand uh performance going on on the show prior to this because the mic was totally loose.
+
+[2:24] Like the mic had been like blasted off of its like gimbals here and was like, you know, practically lying on the floor in the studio. It was the gun show. Yeah, apparently a you know, a a rattling time had uh at least by the microphone. Is it is this the microphone they use, this one? Uh yeah, one of them.
+
+[2:41] Yeah, yeah. That thing was that thing was all its hinges. Anyway. Uh so anything uh good going on, Sas? No, not really.
+
+[2:49] No? Really literally, nothing good is happening. Nothing good has happened. Well, uh, you know, wow, that makes that makes what we do sound very interesting. Uh a Christmas was a long time ago.
+
+[3:00] You're referring to the Mamufuku holiday party. Yeah, but I found I were talking. I found out how where the invitation was. Well, uh, you know how whenever they send you your fake paycheck that doesn't ha that says uh this is not a paycheck. I don't get that anymore.
+
+[3:12] You because you have someone else throw it away for you. No, really, I don't get it. They're gonna want it. Do you want it sent to you? What it was on.
+
+[3:20] Okay, well, it wasn't there. Because you don't get it. They literally have to they have to print it like by law. It's printed. Like, so someone throws it away for you because you probably said, keep it the hell away from me.
+
+[3:29] No, it's like that's where the holiday party invite was on the pay stuff. So you in fact were invited. I like uh well, Piper didn't want to see you. Piper saw you all day, he didn't want to see you at night. No, no, Piper was asking me where is it?
+
+[3:46] Yeah, whatever. I did not go because I was sick as a dog last night. I was like, I got all of a sudden. You ever have like an instant sore throat? Like a move.
+
+[3:54] I'm on like heavy meds now. I'm on a super heavy meds. Wow. Anyways. Speaking of uh heavy meds, uh we're on track for our Kickstarter.
+
+[4:04] I can't tell you people what it is yet, but I was testing out the the thing that we're using at uh the pizza party I had, because every every year of my kids' birthday, I have pizza party at my house where the kids make the pizza, and I was using it. It's not a pizza oven, don't you? But uh I was using it. We cranked out these freaking kids. We cranked out twenty freaking pizzas in in like in like two hours, and they ate every last one.
+
+[4:29] And it we only we didn't have that many people. I don't know where where the heck all that pizza went. It's crazy. Yeah. Also made uh some fake Twinkies.
+
+[4:36] Some fake twinkies. So like uh, you know how the Twinkie's uh hostess is out of business, right? Right. Right? And you know how it yeah, not only is she shopping for Zappos folks, she's playing the music from the website.
+
+[4:48] First of all, it was serious radio was on before. Trader awesome, listening to a competitor, yeah. Terrible. First of all, anyone out there who designs a website and puts music on it, have your head examined. Do not serious radio.
+
+[5:02] Whatever. Okay. Unless you are serious radio or Pandora or Heritage Radio Network. They have to click for artists to come on. We don't just, you know, auto-play things.
+
+[5:12] It's because we're not bad people. Exactly. We don't like we don't invade your home. It's but because you happen to come to our website, you know, perhaps an error, we hope not. We don't invade your home.
+
+[5:22] Anyway, so Twink host is out of business. I bought a box uh uh before Christmas, before holidays for my kids of Twinkies because they'd never had one, and I grew up with Twinkies. I was like, Oh, kids had Twinkies. My wife was like, What the hell are you doing buying my kids Twinkies? And so anyway, they loved it, and all of a sudden, because it's not available anymore, it became their became their favorite dessert on earth.
+
+[5:41] By Christmas time, they were up to $25 for a box of 10. I think the MSRP on that sucker was like $4.50 or something like that. So I bought two for Christmas, but then I decided I'm gonna buy the you can buy pans that make Twinkies, they're Twinkie shaped pans. Everyone on the line on the internet, they make the fake Twinkies by uh molding uh aluminum foil around spice bottles and then using that. But I was like, you know, if my kids want uh if my you know if my kids want Twinkies, I'll invest the money in the pants.
+
+[6:09] So I got the pants and I followed Todd Wilbur. You know Todd Wilbur, you're familiar with Todd Wilbur? Todd Wilbur, he has like a since I think the 90s or something, 80s, 90s, has had a bunch of books called like Top Secret Recipe. And a top secret recipe, it's like you know, he figures out like what's the real oibes and spices in he's not he's not from around here, he doesn't sound like that. He's from like New Mexico or some crap, but he's like, What are the herbs and spices in like Kentucky Fried Chicken and stuff like that?
+
+[6:34] So he posts, in fact, he has a recipe I haven't tested it for Heinz ketchup, fake like Heinz ketchup and you know, whatever it's buy go by Heinz, Heinz is delicious ketchup product. Anyway, uh uh, unless you don't like Heinz, but I think Heinz is a fine ketchup product. Is that your favorite ketchup, says? I really don't care. Are you a freak?
+
+[6:52] Are you a freak? I really don't know. How do you work in the cooking business and not care about the ketchup taste different? I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[6:58] You don't care? I really don't know. So I could serve you poop in a bottle and say it's ketchup, and as long as it says ketchup on the bottle, you don't care. I don't know. Whatever's on the table.
+
+[7:06] I don't care. Like, I really don't care about that kind of stuff. What the hell is wrong with you? How could you not care about it? It's ketchup.
+
+[7:12] It's not. It's not. They taste different. That's like, hey, look, it's a few. You know what you know, you know what?
+
+[7:17] You know what? You know what? You know what, Stas? I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what.
+
+[7:19] I owe Stas, I still owe her a bottle of good wine for a bet I've lost. I'm just gonna get her anything. Because what does it matter? It's wine. No, it's not a wine.
+
+[7:26] It's wine. What does it matter? It's wine. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what kind of grapes went into it.
+
+[7:31] Doesn't matter how it was made. On-air ketchup tasting. They're different. They're different. Hunt's ketchup and Heinz ketchup don't taste the same.
+
+[7:41] I like Sir Kensington's. Wow. They're friends of the network. No, honestly, I don't know. I I I mean, usually you get Heinz, right?
+
+[7:48] I mean, I know when I taste something that's not Heinz, and I'm usually kind of disappointed. Yeah, because Hunt's ketchup, no offense to the Hunts Corporation. They make fine canned tomato products, but Hunt's doesn't taste like Heinz does. It doesn't. I don't care.
+
+[8:03] The hell is that? You're supposed to care about every aspect of the what of the world. Maybe we can do a new show at one o'clock called I Don't Care with Nastasia. Well, it's just everything. Where Nastasha tackles the world because she doesn't care.
+
+[8:20] Man, god dang. So, anyways, uh making uh the twinkies, but the problem was that the the issue is is that is that the uh the kids don't want a good sponge cake filled with you know uh some sort of cream filling that dad can come up with. They want freaking twinkies. So I'm not trying to, yeah, it wasn't trying to work on that, so I had to use his fake recipe, which is boxed pound cake and whipped egg whites for the and it pretty is pretty dang close to a Twinkie, actually. You know, my it like Booker was like, real Twinkies, Dad, are slightly better.
+
+[8:54] They're slightly better. Well, I was like, that's perfect. You don't want it to be actually be better than the Twinkie, you want it to be just slightly less good so it tastes like you're actually shooting for the Twinkie. Anywho, but the filling was so freaking thick that I followed the recipe. The filling is marshmallow fluff, Crisco.
+
+[9:09] Trans fat free Crisco. A little bit of powder, sugar, and salt with a little bit of water in it. And I I guess the water level wasn't over whatever. I don't know. It was so freaking thick that it the both pastry bags that I used exploded.
+
+[9:21] The hostess brand, Twinkie like bags, no wonder they went out of business. The bags exploded and sprayed filling all over the table. It's freaking nightmare. Next next time I do it, I'm gonna make a a thinner, a thinner Twinkie mix. But now that I own two pans, I guess I'm gonna have to make Twinkie.
+
+[9:39] You know why? Yeah, I know, but it yeah. I mean, it's like anything. It's like it's like anything that's taken you don't care about Twinkies. I do care about Twinkies.
+
+[9:47] What the hell? You don't care about what do you care about? Tell me something you care about. I mean, I do name a thing you care about. Well, I never would have if my kids weren't now obsessed with it.
+
+[10:00] And they're obsessed with it because they can't have it. Mm-hmm. You know, it's the same thing that everyone cares about X, Y, or Z. As soon as it's gone or as soon as somebody's dead, they they care about it a lot more. That's true.
+
+[10:11] So, same with Twinkies, especially because my kids now, like they love any kind of dessert. So they they they get the Twinkies and then they they're like, oh my god, I love it, and I can't have it. I need it. You know what I mean? I don't personally care about Twinkies that much, except for I care about uh, you know, my kids.
+
+[10:28] Yes. And they care about the Twinkies. So you still have not named something you care about. So, further proof that Nastasha's next show that she's gonna do on her own is just like anything, anything in the world. Man, I don't really care.
+
+[10:41] Man, I don't really care. Uh our good friend, uh our good friend Vidyot Um wrote in saying he uh had a cookbook recommendation because we were talking about Indian cookbooks, but he took a very interesting tack. Instead of recommending a book about Indian cooking, he recommended a book that is printed by an Indian person in India about vegetarian cooking, but it's not strictly speaking an Indian cookbook. It's kind of interesting. He says, um, uh I'm behind on the schedule podcast, but regarding Indian cookbooks, the unique book of vegetarian uh cooking by Saraj Joshi is an impressive book.
+
+[11:15] And I don't know if it and then he added later, I don't know if it's published in the US, but her son's a friend, and the book is good. He uh she also did an all-spinach book called Palak Preparations. I like that pallock preparations. Anyway, no uh no uh Sam, it's not available in the US, but uh I did I did look it up. You can't get it in the U.S.
+
+[11:32] But an interesting, an interesting take. A non-Indian food necessarily food. It has like Mexican food, Chinese food, and Indian food anyway. But anyway, I said I would read it on the air, and there you have it. Uh at Clef's write in, what is a good way to keep uh tarot, uh potatoes and other starchy foods firm after cooking, or maybe just firm the surfaces.
+
+[11:49] Well, I mean, the classic way to keep things firm, and this goes back to uh the f the first instance I read about this uh was uh Jeffrey Steingarden in I think it was in his original book, uh The Man Who Ate Everything, which I think I totally said on the air I always keep confusing with the man who mistook his wife for his hat. So, like I all the titles of the Jeffrey. It's not well, it's not by him, it's by Oliver Sachs, but like somehow I always confuse the two titles and sounds like the man who mistook everything for his hat or ate everything with his hat. Anyway, I always get confused, but the man who ate everything, which was probably when I read it, one of the most, and you know, it still is, in other words, but you know, uh when I read it especially, was kind of one of the most important food books um uh that I ever read. Really.
+
+[12:29] I mean, really, you know, fantastic book. Uh you know, it's a compilation of all his of his article, his articles from Vogue, not all of them, but many of them, uh, in which he says that you should care about everything and you should try everything. Uh, and he's told you that personally himself. Anyways, so he has a section on uh on potatoes, mashed potatoes in particular, and I think also French fries and whatnot, but mainly mashed potatoes, and it was an extremely influential article on keeping them f uh firm and together by heating the preheating them uh at a temperature to activate the um pectin methylesterase enzymes that are in the potato uh and thereby provide uh structure to it later on in the cook process. Bang.
+
+[13:10] Okay. So uh so the that it's a long way of saying pectin methylesterase. So here's what's going on. In in I mean the problem with starch is that starch swells, it's gonna burst and leak out, right? But you can uh harden it somewhat and protect it somewhat um by uh by strengthening the the pectin that's holding the whole thing together, because even though there's a whole boatload of starch in a potato, it still has a lot of pectin there holding holding things together.
+
+[13:35] Now, pectin uh naturally uh what happens is uh you it what it's it cross-links with calcium to get to get stronger, right? So you need calcium present. So this is why, like, you know, uh we use uh calcium to firm up vegetables or calcium chloride is used to firm up tomatoes, right? So when if you if you're if you're making canned tomatoes, you add calcium chloride, even though calcium chloride tastes terrible, you add it, and that small amount of calcium allows the uh pectin to cross-link. When it cross links, it gets firmer and then doesn't break down when it's cooked.
+
+[14:12] However, you have to use um the not all the pectin uh has uh has the ability to cross-link that way. You've got to demethylate it, right? So you gotta use a pectin methylesterase, which is an enzyme, which makes the pectin more readily cross-linked by the calcium. So it's a two-part process. You need to activate the enzymes that are in the potato already, usually by heating, up uh, I think it's like somewhere near 60 Celsius or something like this.
+
+[14:37] Uh, and then uh maybe a little higher, 60, 65 Celsius, and you need to have calcium present. Now there's some calcium present there already, but you can use the enzyme, pectin methylestrates, which you can purchase from novozymes. I don't know if modernist uh pantry stocks it yet, but you can buy that and then add some calcium to it, or you can just use calcium and the natural enzymes that are in there uh to crosslink it. Yeah, good job. Yeah.
+
+[14:59] Uh I don't care. Okay. Uh Andrew Campbell writes in uh Robbie Burns night is fast approaching. Any tips on a more modern preparation of haggis or of cooking organs sous vide. Have we done haggis on this show?
+
+[15:14] I don't think so. Haggis. I have two cans. We should eat it soon. Do we you haven't eaten one yet?
+
+[15:20] Your sister had it when she was into Scotland though, right? Yeah. Yeah. And she loved it, right? I have a Scotch flavored haggis.
+
+[15:26] Did she like the haggis? She liked it a lot. Yeah, you know why? Because Haggis is uh delicious. Haggis, let me just say this.
+
+[15:33] Cooking issues, the show is going on record as saying that haggis is freaking delicious product. Yeah. And uh and you you don't actually you don't have very long left. I think uh Bobby Burns' day is what, the twenty fifth or something like that? So anyway.
+
+[15:49] That is not you know, you know, Bobby Burns, the famous poet from Scotland who wrote such Diddy's as old Langzyne. Oh. Yeah. Anyway, so like uh they celebrate his, I guess his birthday, uh, every year uh in Scotland, and you have Haggis and you drink scotch and you and you and you he has a poem about haggis that you're supposed to read before you eat the haggis. So for those of you that are haggis deficient in your knowledge, uh I'll give you the here's here's how they gross you out with it with haggis, right?
+
+[16:16] This is what they say. It's like the heart and the lungs and all of the goopy crappy stuff inside of a sheep and it's stuffed into a sheep's stomach and cooked and then you eat it, right? That doesn't sound so appetizing. No. Speak for yourself.
+
+[16:30] Right. But to a lot of people it doesn't sound appetizable. In reality, what it is is it's one of any number of dishes that's produced with uh the pluck. So when you when you're with the pluck is all the stuff in the center of an animal. So typically that would uh constitute hearts, lungs, liver, uh, kidney, all that stuff.
+
+[16:48] All of the the awful meat that's there. Well, not awful with an A with an O. And um and another famous uh dish like that i in the US is Scrapple, right? Uh a dish that I also think that everyone needs to eat uh uh much more often, assuming that they they eat meat. Now all of these awful dishes are meant to use the pluck in a way that uh you know, you use it, just use it.
+
+[17:13] But they what they do is you make the stock with it, and then you use the stock to cook a uh grain. So in the case of haggis, it's oatmeal mixed up with these with these cooked pieces of meat and the stock that it comes from, stuffed inside of the sheep's uh stomach, which is the lining like a pudding case, right? And then uh cooked, you know, more so the whole thing slices out like a big like oatmeal, like uh oatmeal meatloaf mushroom. It's freaking great. It's great.
+
+[17:39] Whereas, like, you know, scrapple is all of like the pig's parts, uh like the hard slums and all that well not not anymore but uh yeah liver chopped up and then m made a stock and then you take and chop up the pieces and you put it into cornmeal right which is like you know just a better version of polenta and then when you fry it it get the the gelatin from the stock melts this is a scrapple and it gets all gooey and delicious and and and you know it's great it's fantastic stuff. Now the trick is people are grossed out by some of these meats. And so uh first of all you can't serve lungs in the U.S. at all. So lungs is traditional part of Scott you ever had lungs?
+
+[18:15] No. They're good but they're spongy. Like I have to be honest they're spongy. So like a typical Italian dish that my uh fat uh stepfather uh used to love when he was growing up because his dad was a butcher and he would bring home the hearts and the lungs uh even though he wasn't allowed because he wasn't allowed to sell the lungs because he would slaughter his own sheep was a mixture of hearts and lungs like the from around the Naples version that was thinking of tomato sauce. And uh so he used to love it because the chewy parts of the heart and the and the spongy parts of the lung anyway cooking together but you can't have lung here in the US.
+
+[18:43] But the trick to making this thing modern is if someone doesn't necessarily see back then you you you're making it because uh you wanted to use all those meats if you don't necessarily want for instance the stronger taste of liver in your in your scrapple or in your haggis you can just omit it if you want to. You know what I mean? It's not going to be the same it's not going to be traditional. But this idea of a very flavorful stock made from gelatinous and uh you know flavorful like meat that you cook in a stock grind up and then mix with uh a grain like oatmeal and then cook in in a in a like a pudding way or a loaf is freaking valid even if you were to use high grade stuff. So we made a high grade haggis at the FCI a number of years ago where we used um meat that you would actually normally just uh eat and cooked it along with uh some offal that we could put in uh and do it.
+
+[19:38] Um so that you know so there you have it. Now in terms of cooking in general low temperature uh with with oh and if you want to know about scrapple you can buy William Moyce Weaver's book Country Scrapple which is tedious but exhaustive and like thoroughly researched on scrapple and its importance in uh America and then tracing it back to uh you know um tracing it back to uh Germany, Europe and all of its roots over there. Anyway, okay it's a Pennsylvania Dutch thing Dutch meaning Deutsch, not Dutch meaning Dutch from Holland. Anyway. So uh so the the trick with uh in general with modern uh cooking there is there you I so modern when I was saying modern I meant modern from a taste perspective.
+
+[20:18] If you want to go modern in terms of cooking low temperature sous vide you have to remember that you still have to cook the thing at a high enough temperature to cook the oatmeal out. So you're probably not going to do an extremely low temperature cook uh same with same with uh scrapple for polenta you you know you still need to cook out the polenta so you need to go to a higher temperature than you normally would but you could do it in a bag if you wanted to to keep all the flavors and the issue is is that a lot of times with uh awful and with um variet variety meats if you're using variety meats uh a lot of the old style preparation of these meats is to try to get rid of some of the inherent uh aromas let's say that they have or flavors and so you'll have recipes where things are soaked in milk beforehand to draw out uh stuff or they're uh parboiled first to draw things out and if you don't do those sorts of things I mean remember that low sous vide if you put something in a vacuum bag tends to concentrate aromas over time. So if the something has an aroma that you're trying to get rid of or a taste that you're trying to get rid of you don't want to put it in a bag right away because it's just going to seal the stuff in. The second thing the reason you'd want to do low temperature sous vide on one of these things is because you want to uh make it more tender than you otherwise would you have to look at how tenderness really works when you're doing uh low temperature cooking. So uh let's say you're going to cook a regular piece of muscle meat that has a lot of collagen right and you don't want to uh cook it to a high temperature because you want to not overcook the muscle that's within it to uh you know over medium rare or medium let's say so you do low temperature for a long time and long long time breaks down things like skin uh things like connective tissue uh it and this is why this is a good technique for things like pork tails that have a lot of uh a lot of collagen a lot that can break down into gelatin over long cooking right but and and it keeps them whole because it doesn't melt them out it just it just converts them to uh gelatin in their own place without actually melting it out the way you would in a traditional braise.
+
+[22:16] Uh so it's fantastic for things like that. Meats like uh heart are not tough because they have a lot of collagen. They're tough because the muscle fibers are extremely strong. So cooking it low temperature isn't going to soften it the same way it would soften let's say a short rib. What's going to happen with uh with heart is you're actually going to break the muscle fibers down by extreme long cooking but that's a different kind of tenderness.
+
+[22:43] Now back when Stas used to pay attention to the the Sous vide class that we would I sat through that like five times. Well, more like once and the rest typed your way through it. But the uh but one of the classic things I want people to taste when they're tasting low temperature cooked meats is the difference between tender and mushy because they often get confused. And um when I cook a piece of steak for too long, for instance, to me, it's no longer tender. When the muscle fibers themselves start breaking down, it becomes mushy.
+
+[23:15] And you've tasted that, right, Stas? Yes. Yeah. Do you care about that? No, of course.
+
+[23:20] All right. Well, well, so she's not mushy. So she's not talking about that on the show. But the uh, but the so the point is is that you can tenderize something like a heart, but I think a lot of the tender is tenderizing you have to be careful that it doesn't edge over into the mushy zone. Uh also certain things like liver, if they're cooked for a long time in a bag, accentuate the livery flavor.
+
+[23:40] And in fact, uh cuts of meat like Eye of Round that uh you know when they're cooked for a long time also tend to become livery. So I wouldn't cook something that's livery for a very long time in a bag because if you do, you're going to uh you're going to accentuate that that livery note. Anyway, uh hope that's helpful. That seems helpful at all. Yes.
+
+[24:00] Yeah. What time is it? I can't even see the clock. 1225. So should we go to our first commercial break?
+
+[24:03] Yes. We're going to our first commercial break. Call in the 7184972128 cooking issues. Today's theme song for cooking issues is by Joel Gargano. The break song is Fish Is Fish Is Vodka by the Meat Ballers.
+
+[24:26] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story.
+
+[25:18] Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. Oh yeah! Back with cooking issues. What's up, guys? Nothing like coming back with Dorothy.
+
+[25:30] Yeah, coming back with Dorothy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Shout out Dorothy.
+
+[25:35] Speaking about coming back, the blog's back on the air. What I don't even believe that. Is that true? It is. We don't get a clay don't get a clap for that.
+
+[25:45] Yeah, man. We didn't believe it. Although I just got tweeted out this way. So what happened is is that our good friend Paul Adams decided to take uh who you know writes for uh popular science. Uh decided to and he you know he tasted Surstroming with us.
+
+[26:02] Remember that? Mm-hmm. What oh my god, so well so Surstroming is this uh is this like horribly uh what's it's like horribly stinky. Uh even I had issues with it. Uh it's incredibly stinky fish that is not salted enough to totally kill everything, and then ferments inside it's from Sweden.
+
+[26:24] Ferments inside the can, and so like a bulging can is actually the sign of a good Surstraming. And uh you like keep it in this can for a year and uh you open it and um pungent, pungent. You were there for that, right? Yeah, yeah. Did you eat it?
+
+[26:40] Yeah. Did you like it? It's it's intensely freaking salty, and the smell is beyond what you would think is possible in something that you would put in your mouth. It's like it's it is like I've never seen flies attracted to something so fast. Remember that?
+
+[26:58] There was like no there was no flies anywhere, and all of a sudden, like we were swarming, we were like beating the flies away. And only I I ate it a couple of times. I you know, got it down, we had like the rye bread and we had Akavite and all this other stuff. But uh only Harold McGee, who was like, doesn't have the vomit note that the last one I had. Remember that?
+
+[27:18] Doesn't have the vomit note. That was what his complaint it was his complaint. Yes. That it didn't have the vomit note from the first time or the f other two times he had had it. The only other guy who was pounding Sir Stromming was Paul Adams.
+
+[27:30] So much so that he was like, You're not gonna throw that can away, are you? Also it doesn't talk like that. He's like, You're not gonna throw that can away. He's like, I'm gonna take that back to the office, took it in a cab with him. I am sure that this cabbie, like if this cabbie had been armed, Paul would have had a problem.
+
+[27:47] You know what I mean? Because this was the stinkiest thing that ever happened. Anyways, so uh our good buddy Paul. He uh got the cooking issues back uh back online. We finally got the passwords, we have control, but I unfortunately, Nastash, I don't know if you heard this this morning, but someone said that we are reinfected already.
+
+[28:04] What? And it's like, you know, you try and do something. Do you guys use WordPress? No. Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[28:10] I don't know. I don't know. But so so for those that tweeted that to us, we're getting that worked on, and we're going to uh we're uh Paul said he might actually write some stuff for the cooking issues. We're gonna become a viable blog again, people. That's it.
+
+[28:23] Tell me where you see it is infected. I didn't see it was infected, someone else did. You have to go to my Twitter account. She's like, I can't be bothered. I can't be bothered.
+
+[28:32] Uh I just have one thing for Joel Gargano. If he's gonna do a Harold McGee kind of tribute band that uh maybe he might want to call it Vomit Note. Whoa. You know? I don't know that Harold would.
+
+[28:44] I don't know. I don't know. I mean Well, yeah, I guess. Yeah, you never I mean I don't know it's hard to say. It's just such a cool band name.
+
+[28:50] Vomit Note. Vomit Note. Is that like uh is that like the Brown Note? Yeah. That note that you hit and you don't know whether you've you've been able to hold it in.
+
+[29:00] It's a good one. Anyway, uh that's why I played, that's why I learned to play bass, by the way, is because uh, you know, the notes, like a really good bass cab when you're playing uh live and you're in your amps really good and your bass cab's really good, like you really have to squeeze tight to make sure that you've maintained control because your body is vibrating so so much. And that is the that's the that's what's so awesome about playing the bass. No one with me on this? Okay.
+
+[29:24] Um what do you mean? You went to rock concerts all the time. You don't know what I'm talking about. I don't even watch the drummer. I only watch the drummer.
+
+[29:32] By the way, Nastasha, obsessed with uh There's a Feeling coming in the air tonight by Phil Collins. No, everyone go online, Google the video when he's live, and he sings the entire song walking on stage, and you're worried he's not gonna make it to the drum set before that important part. But he does. I guarantee I'm not worried about it. Finally, we found something that I'm not worried about that you are worried about.
+
+[29:54] Phil Collins making it to the drum set. Alright. Josh Krieger writes in on heating elements and cast iron. Nastash and Dave, two questions for you. What kind of heating element is used in the poly science immersion circulators?
+
+[30:07] Are they PTC heaters or something else? Well, for those of you not in the heating know a PTC heater is a positive temperature coefficient heater. And uh what a positive temperature coefficient heater is is it's um a heating element they're usually like chips. They're like you know little chips. And uh and they're they're arrayed.
+
+[30:24] You put a bunch of them in you heat them. But they the hotter they get the higher their resistance goes but it's not in a linear fashion. So over a normal kind of heat range where you might want to control a heater, uh it has a relatively low resistance. And then as soon as it heats up beyond a certain predetermined point that they uh that they determine by what they dope it with. I think they're usually made with um barium titanate and then they have a little doping crap in it to change the temperature at which the resistance really changed but you hit a certain temperature and all of a sudden bam the resistance goes way up which throttles the power down.
+
+[30:56] So they're called self-limiting because they can't burn themselves out. And that's an advantage. So by the way, no poly science does not use them. Poly science uses standard resistance uh heaters uh with stainless steel sheaths so they use a uh you know a a bendable tubular immersion heater with a stainless steel sheath in them and the way you could tell that they use it actually I don't know I haven't opened up his new one I haven't opened up the I haven't opened up the what's the new one called the inexpensive one? I don't remember the name of it.
+
+[31:25] Sue V Creative I think creative. I haven't opened up the Sous V Creative but none of the older ones uh use a PTC heater. The advantages of uh the advantage of a PTC heater is it doesn't require a secondary um uh uh it doesn't require secondary safety. So if you look at one of the old poly science circulators, or even I guess you know the the professional, which is you know the one we have, it there's a little uh what looks like a sauce a stainless steel sausage strapped to the heating element. And that is uh uh a safety thing, such that if the e the tank runs dry, or if anything like that happens, uh and the temperature of the heating element shoots up, then um the it shuts the system off, right?
+
+[32:08] So and the advantage, you know, that's standard way of doing it. The advantage of the PTC is it doesn't require that, and also if it goes over temp, it doesn't actually shut the s it doesn't shut the system down, it just throttles the power down uh to a point where it's not gonna harm anything. So that's the the theoretical advantage of the uh of them. They're they're super advantageous in situations where you know that you're not going to be able to stop crud from building up between your heating element and the temperature measurement that's gonna use it, right? Because then if inefficiencies can mean that your heating element can get so hot that they can burn themselves out.
+
+[32:43] Not really the case in an immersion circulator, but anyway, uh PTCs um have only recently been starting to, I think, really being used quite a lot in in new applications. So I don't know if Philip will use them eventually, but he's not using them right now as far as I know. Yeah? Yep. Whoa!
+
+[32:59] Whoa. Wow. Reverbed colour, you're on the air. Yeah, listen, uh David, how are you doing? Um this is massive a couple times before, but I have a two-part question about combu today.
+
+[33:15] Okay. Um is combu fat soluble, i.e., if put combo in oil, will it enhance the flavor of whatever I cook in the oil? Hmm. Okay, so the we're talking about combu, which is uh seaweed giant kelp that uh you know most famously used for making dashi in uh Japanese cuisine, also used for curing things like fish, uh where you wrap uh and also as Nils used to do, duck, where he'd wrap the duck in combu, let it sit, and you develop kind of a cured layer on the outside. Uh okay, so I mean obviously the salty stuff is not really oil soluble, right?
+
+[33:52] But I don't know. I don't know about the other flavors. Uh we've never to my best of my knowledge, we've never done an oil-based uh combu. I know that the skin of the duck, which has quite a lot of fat, picked up a lot of really good flavor from the combo, though. So I I I know that's the case.
+
+[34:09] Uh but you know, it's hard for me to say whether or not it's the water uh part of the skin that's picking up the combu or whether it was the oil part. It's a really fascinating question. Uh I you know, you tend to think mainly about um you know uh amino acids, uh you know, and you know glutamic acids in particular and other things getting liberated from combu by the um uh you know, by the cooking process in Dashi. And of course, you know it has all the polysaccharides in it 'cause it's a seaweed and that's what's providing the structure. But I've never thought about the uh never thought about oil.
+
+[34:42] Uh please give it a shot and send us a tweet and tell us what happens, uh, because uh you know it sound sounds interesting. I'd I'd like to hear what happened. All right. Uh let's be honest with you uh where the question comes from. I was watching uh the recent season of Top Chef, and in one of the episodes he had a fryer and he actually had combu in the fryer.
+
+[34:59] So I've been thinking about it for a couple of weeks now, about is it fat soluble? Would it really work? I don't know. I haven't tried it, but I did do a lot of research online, so I figured I'd call I'd call the person that might be the answer. Wait, so he was using it not to make a crispy fried combu but to flavor the oil?
+
+[35:16] Yeah. And and on the on research online did they say it worked or no? No, I couldn't find anything that said that combo was fat soluble or um glutaminic I'm gonna say it wrong, but whatever the acid or the amino acids were fat soluble. So here's what I here here's what I would do. I mean, although you know cross is a blood brain bear whatever.
+
+[35:38] But like here's what I here's what I uh or it doesn't no. I always get my brain confused. No, one does the other one doesn't. No it doesn't. Yeah it's uh it's not anyway.
+
+[35:45] So the uh what I would do is um I would just run a side by side uh test where you know uh and then serve it to someone to see if they can tell the difference. Even better yet, do it do a triangle test where you serve them three, two of them are the same and one is different and have them try and figure out which one's which and why fair enough it sounds great. I will just cool the second yeah yeah the second part of the question is I just recently read the article that was written by the food lab on Sirius Eats about um brining uh chicken and turkey and talks about how using a protein br uh brine like chicken stock doesn't flavor the meat per se because the particles in the chicken stock are too big to get into the protein even though the protein expands. Right. Um I question is if you were to put combu in the brine do you think that the glutaminic acid or the amino acids will get inside of the protein or is it does for sure?
+
+[36:44] Huh I don't know. I mean like a combu definitely flavors the surface of the meat and causes a curing because it has salt. There are the there are s very small water soluble molecules in combu that will do some penetration. I don't know, uh I mean, so you know, uh individual amino acids are not large, but I don't know what their diffusion characteristic through the surface of uh of a meat is. Others, you know, me like because salt is really small.
+
+[37:11] Do you know what I mean? Right, because the salt is well the salt helps open up the protein strands. Uh right. Well, it changes like it's it shifts it shifts the conformation of the protein, right? And uh uh so but the the I don't know.
+
+[37:28] I was gonna say I don't it's another thing I uh I don't know. My my my guess is that that you're not getting too much effect past the surface unless you inject it. Or or if you have you know holes in it, you know, but like this is why you usually if you're gonna in like with a broth or something, you inject you inject it in. I mean salts, small molecules, things diffuse through, but uh so I guess that means I'm in agreement with the uh with the serious seeds post, then, right? Okay, yes.
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+[37:56] Uh so well, I'm working with your first. Cutting out understanding. Yep. I said uh I said I'm working with an old friend of yours here in Chicago. Oh, yeah?
+
+[38:07] Yeah, with Musa. Oh, yeah? How's he doing? Yep. He's doing great.
+
+[38:11] You're really good. Nice. All right. Well, say howdy for me. I I will for sure.
+
+[38:16] I will for sure. And uh he's uh teaching me a lot of great stuff. I'm learning everything I ever needed to know about hydrocolloids and so that's that's pretty much it. So uh great radio station or radio shells, thank you very much, and I'll keep listening. Oh, thank you.
+
+[38:32] Awesome. Thanks. Jack putting the reverb even on me. Like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:36] On the thing, thank you. You, you, you, you, you. All right. So uh Josh Krieger's second question in was I have a 14-inch cast iron skillet. I'm thinking about flipping it upside down and using it as a baking steel for pizza.
+
+[38:44] Is there a temperature where the seasoning on the skillet would start to degrade? I.e., can I use it at 550 degrees Fahrenheit without issues? Okay, before I get into that, so the pizza steel is this thing that uh, you know, the modernist cuisine uh guys uh were saying that they use a very thick piece of steel that they heat up and that develop uh delivers a wallop of heat to uh pizzas uh you know, they say in a more effective way than something like a stone uh wood, and is easier to load the heat into than a stone, right? Now my question is I don't know if a cast iron pan is enough has enough stored energy to do what uh what uh Josh wants here. But that's not the question, so I'm not gonna get into that question because that wasn't the question.
+
+[39:31] Uh now uh 550 Fahrenheit, you're getting you're getting very close. So let's go back to what a cast iron the cast iron seasoning is. So cast iron seasoning, uh seasoning a cast iron pan, you're you're doing a uh a coup a couple of things. And by the way, uh last night when I saw this question, I went and uh you know, did a re re research because occasionally people like change their, you know, write new things about you know what's going on, so I was just checking up. Uh and I found actually a really old uh thread on the garden web that written by this kind of like it's interesting dude from Louisiana, Dan A.
+
+[40:07] B. Uh Z9LA for Louisiana on the garden web and not Louisiana, not LA for Los Angeles, LA for Louisiana. Anyway, and he's like a retired chemist, and he has strangely on this garden web thing from like 2007, possibly the best explanation of what's going on in a in uh pancuring that I've read. Uh anyway, so in a pan in a pancury situation, you're taking uh an oil or fat, you're putting a thin layer on your pan, and then heating it till it's past the smoke point, it starts to turn black, break down. So he he says that there's two things that are going on.
+
+[40:42] One, you're polymerizing the oil, right, by breaking it, breaking it down at uh at wherever it has like a double bond, breaking it down and it's forming a polymer. The polymer is hard, right? But also breaking uh fat down in general uh into its smaller parts and leaving carbon residues. And uh, you know, I looked it up and carbon residues of oils is one of the things people measure, especially in the petroleum industry, because they need to know how much soot is going to be left over when oils are burned or when they're degraded, right? So he says you want that carbon because it the carbon is adding to uh the kind of the non-stick uh principle.
+
+[41:16] So it's a combination of polymerization of oil and the carbon that's put down. But if you heat it too high, you're gonna break down that those uh those polymers that you put on it. And the problem is that the temperature at which that happens is gonna depend partly on what oil was there to begin with, uh, along with a lot of other factors. I will say this. Um I have burnt the seasoning off of pans in my oven.
+
+[41:42] Now my oven gets hotter. Remember, I told you before I do pizza in my oven. My oven gets up to like 850, 875 degrees, and it will easily burn the seasoning off of a cast iron pan. Uh the um self-cleaning on an oven which runs a little bit hotter, a little over 900 Fahrenheit, is gonna burn the seasoning off of a cast iron pan. Uh just vaporize it.
+
+[42:05] Uh I've had pans on my stove overheat and lost uh some seasoning on them when I'm going super, super, super high heat on these little cast iron skillets that I have. So uh I you know, if you were saying 500, I'd say you're okay. If you were saying 650, I'd say not okay. I have a bunch of pan uh stone bowls that get seasoned uh with uh oil, um, you know, the hot stone bowls for Korean food, and I get them up to about 615, 620 all the time, and that wipes out the seasoning on the bottom. So uh, you know, it's it's tough to say.
+
+[42:43] Like if you can guarantee you're 550, you're probably gonna be okay, but if you go much higher than that, it's gonna be a problem, you know? But uh check out uh check out Dan A B Z9LA on the garden web so you can uh uh you check it out. Another interesting thing is that um uh there's another blog out there, I forg I forget her name is Cheryl Cantor, I forget the name of her blog, but she has an interesting post on cast iron where she actually because the whole the whole point of uh, you know, you're familiar with drying oil like linseed oil for painting. Yeah. So it's like she's like, why not, since what you're trying to do is form a polymer, why not use the oil that's actually good at that, even at room temperature, which is flaxseed oil, linseed oil.
+
+[43:21] And so she seasons now all of her pants with uh flaxseed oil, and she says she gets really good results because there's a lot of people on the internet that really care about what they what oil they use. And Dan, I'm gonna say it again because I can't. Dan A B Z9LA. You should do it in the army code so people know what they're you know. What Alpha Bravo Zeta.
+
+[43:40] But I don't know whether he was ever in the army or not. I know he's in Louisiana. People are writing it down, they're not writing down like C instead of Z. Here's why I've never met this guy, Dan, but here's why I like his posts. Because he it's like he just says something, and then like later on you find out that like he's only started dipping his finger in the kind of crap that he knows.
+
+[43:58] Cause he's like, he's like, I don't know. Because at one point someone asked him a question. He's like, I don't know. I got another good 1015 pots I got a season tomorrow, so I'll test. I'm like, Dan, what the hell is this guy do?
+
+[44:07] Like he's a retired chemist, and he's like, well, when here's what I do. Here's what I do when I'm re-seasoning my 30 gallon cast iron hog cooker. I'm like, what the hell? You know what I mean? So anyway, so my man, my man Dan, Dan, whatever it is.
+
+[44:23] Dan A B Z 9 in LA. Anyway, like to meet that guy someday. Uh okay. Uh, oh, and uh Josh Thanks us. He says, thanks as always, the show is fantastic.
+
+[44:34] Continues to improve the way I cook and the quality of food I produce, which I appreciate. Um Justin Thrasher writes in on barrel-aged uh cocktails in the Cornelius Keg. Hey, what time is it, Jack? 46. Ooh, let's take one more commercial break.
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+[44:46] Come back. Cooking issues! All right. Every Wednesday at noon, Dorothy Ken Hamilton, founder and CEO of the International Culinary Center, interviews the top chefs in the world on Chef's Story. Here from chefs like Christina Tosi.
+
+[45:40] I'm gonna be the best pastry cook this restaurant's ever seen. Francis Malman, who with flyers it's very feminine, it's very fragile, and Jacques Pepin. That was invited to welcome the White House or uh John Kennedy. Learn how the greats become great. Every Wednesday at 12 p.m.
+
+[45:56] on Chef Story at Heritage Radio Network.org. It wasn't that John Kennedy, it was actually a different kid. John Kennedy's from Jersey. Yeah, it was John Kennedy from Jersey. He was working at the White House at the time.
+
+[46:08] No, no, yeah, no. I love I love my man Jacques Popin. He's done some, he's done some cool things. You know, he was like, I think he was Mitterrand's uh was it Mitterron Chef? Was he chef for Mitterrand, I think, for a while.
+
+[46:18] And like uh he's got an amazing story. You read his uh read his uh autobiography I have. He was one he's one of the reasons that I'm cooking today, in fact. Really? Oh yeah, hell yeah.
+
+[46:27] Jacques Papin, back in the day. I used to watch his show on PBS, and uh when like when I was young, uh, you know, I bought one of the one of the early cookbooks I bought was his kind of mid eighties two part book on uh on on cooking. It was all in color. It was re it was like expensive. I got it as a remainder because it was so far ahead of what Americans wanted to see.
+
+[46:48] He teaches you how to skin a baby lamb in this book. And so it's his two part series. I think it's called uh the the I forget what it's called. Anyway, but it's not not the large black and white one, which is a fantastic bargain, but two part by knop uh color series that uh Jacques Papin did. Anyway.
+
+[47:07] Sweet. Well, episode one of Chef's Story too. Cool interview with him. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting.
+
+[47:12] Yeah, yeah, good man. Uh okay. Justin Thrasher writes in. Uh hey Dave, love the show. Listen weekly, and I'm contemplating trying to get cocktails to force carbonate them later on.
+
+[47:22] Ultimately, I would be able to like to barrel age cocktails in a small two point five gallon Cornelius keg. Cornelius kegs are the uh kegs that are used for soda manufacture back in the day. It's called pre-mix, where you'd mix the soda water and the syrup together in a keg, carbonate the whole thing, and force it out. They look kind of like tall, skinny beer kegs. And the system went out of favor, but uh homebrewers have been using those kegs for years because they're fantastic for small five-gallon uh uh brew sizes for home brewers.
+
+[47:51] Um they also make a smaller 2.5 gallon cornelius keg, however, they're a lot more expensive than the five gallon. That's just for those of you that don't know what a Cornelius keg is. Okay. Ultimately, I would be able to like to barrel age cocktails in a small 2.5 gallon corneas keg and then later carbonate them to serve. Can you possibly add any of your expertise?
+
+[48:08] Nope. No, I'm just kidding. That's what Stas always wants me to say. Nope. Uh so here's the deal.
+
+[48:15] Um barrel aging is uh there's a couple of things going on. So in barrel aging, it typically means it's in a barrel, meaning there's wood. So if you're gonna add chips to this thing, because you're gonna age, because you're gonna you have to add chips, you have to pull the chips out before you're gonna carbonate. If by aging you just mean letting it mellow, so Tony C. Tony Corneliaro, or Canigliaro, as the baseball fans here in the US say, uh, you know, for many years he's aged cocktails in the bottle.
+
+[48:41] And the aging in the bottle is not the same thing as aging it in uh a barrel. He's doing it like the small amount, the the marrying of the spirits, uh, the reduction of the proof, although he doesn't dilute it beforehand, but the reduction of the proof because of things like added vermouth, plus the little bit of oxygen that's in the bottle and remixing it causes it to age over time in the bottle. Okay. Now, more recently, um people have been barrel aging, and in that case, you have the oxygen effects, the marrying effects, and the effects of wood. But for that you need wood, but they're two semi-related but different kinds of things.
+
+[49:13] So if you're gonna do it in a cornea keg, you're gonna have to add uh wood chips because corny kegs are stainless steel. Another thing is is you're gonna have to, like I say, remove the wood, but also you're not gonna want to age something in a Cornelius keg like that uh at when it's diluted. So you're gonna have to do it full strength, and then you have to dilute it before you carbonate it. You have to dilute it before you carbonate it. Another thing about carbonating in a cornelius keg and forcing it out with force carbonation is you're gonna need to get that sucker cold.
+
+[49:38] I like look th I like things that are very bubbly. If you want a very light bubble in it, then you don't need to get it as cold. Then ice water cold is good enough. But for the stuff that we carbonate at the bar, we're carbonating down at like 22, 23 Fahrenheit. I like minus what is that, eight, nine, ten Celsius.
+
+[49:54] Uh also you're gonna need to buy a cold plate uh because in order to get something out of the keg, cocktails foam a lot. You need to mellow it out. To mellow it out, you're gonna need to put the cocktail through a cold plate to allow it to go along a bunch of uh two like smooth tubing beforehand, and you're gonna need to get what's called a Becker squeeze valve, B-E-C-K-E-R squeeze valve. You can get it from um oh my gosh, I can't believe it. Mark Powers uh in uh Guntersville, Alabama.
+
+[50:18] They have it, and those valves have a compensator in the back and allow you to do it, and that's the only way everyone I know uh does it uses those valves. I've used those valves for many, many, many years, and the valve is gonna make a big difference. You're also still gonna get a lot of foaming. You're just gonna get a lot of foaming, right? You mean it's just gonna happen.
+
+[50:34] Okay. Matt Wilson writes in. I'm looking to buy a centrifuge. I'm searching eBay. I found a Hermley CK380.
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+[50:41] Uh, and he gets a link. Is this a good candidate for home use? I'm close by and can go pick it up. It doesn't come with a rotor, and I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. Matt Wilson, Matt, that is a huge issue.
+
+[50:51] I would not, even though it's only like 150 bucks, I mean, unless you know you can buy a rotor from someone, I mean, without the rotor, the centrifuge might as well just be a big doorstop. You know what I mean? So, unless you know you can get the rotor and the buckets for that sucker, I would stay away from it. If you can get the buckets and rotor, look, let's say you can buy another one. The centrifuge looks fine for specs.
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+[51:12] I mean, it's got a little small, it doesn't have that large a bucket. So I think it does one liter at a time. But let's say you found another ZK. This is what I would do. Let's say you found another ZK 380 on the internets and it has a good rotor, but maybe it's a little beat up and you're worried about the brushes not being good or whatever.
+
+[51:26] Buy this sucker for spare parts. For $150 is a spare parts machine. If you already have a good rotor and buckets, that's a good deal. But uh trying to find rotors and buckets uh is like needles and haystacks and buying them new. This is a very old machine.
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+[51:40] I looked at the manual online, it's old. Like I would stay away from it. I would always go try to get one that had a good working rotor and buckets, and the rotors and buckets have to be good, not dinged, not like viciously old, not mutilated, and you're still taking a risk by using a used rotor because you don't know what the other person did. You don't know whether they used the bucket to, I don't know, like pry their car door open. You don't know what the hell they used it for.
+
+[52:03] You know what I mean? Yeah, okay. Uh Joseph W writes in uh at cooking issues. I work at a restaurant in Atlanta. We have a Paco Jet.
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+[52:10] What are some good Paco Jet uses other than ice cream in Sorbet? Thanks. Uh that's mainly what we used it for when I, you know, when I used to have access to one at the French culinary, we almost always made ice cream with it uh because it was so good at it. Um, but you know, it well so the there's a new set of blades you can buy uh called the coop set that allows you to do a lot of work with it uh without freezing first. So you can do farces like you know, mousses and meat farces and grinding things with a Paco jet without first freezing everything.
+
+[52:41] Uh because one of the downsides of everything is that you have to freeze everything. So it comes with a whipping disc, although I don't know why you'd want to whip cream in a Paco jet because it makes no sense. But what it does do is the whipping disc, you can throw fresh fruit in with the cream and the sugar, and it'll whip the fruit directly into the cream without having to do a pre like a puree or something like that. So I guess that's theoretically an advantage. But typically what you would do on the savory side is like let's say you wanted to store a bunch of stuff like herb, and you wanted to uh put like a concentrate or an herb or a puree of that herb into something like a soup.
+
+[53:12] Um in a Paco Jet, what's awesome is you pack it into a Paco Jet container and you just use the portion that you want, you do it, and then you stir, it's frozen, so it stays good forever, frozen solid like a block. And then you just you know, you spin in the Paco jet whatever part you need and you add that part to whatever you're working on, soup, sauces, and it melts right in, right? Uh certain other things when you're doing farces or or or mousses rather, if they have enough structure, you can freeze them and then scoop them if they have enough structure to hold after they thaw out and s and serve them as is or if or if they're cold. But a lot of things they're what they're doing is when they're making mousses with a Paco Jet, they're using the Paco Jet to make a very, very fine texture. Because you gotta remember, Paco Jet, the texture on a Paco jet is smaller than the texture you can get out of a vitape.
+
+[53:56] The texture out of a vitape is not quite smooth enough for your tongue to uh not uh register it. The particles are over 20 micrometers in size. Whereas, uh just slightly, uh uh, I think at maximum efficiency for a vita prep. Whereas in a Paco jet, you're getting ice crystals that are crystals, shavings that are small enough for your tongue not to register them as individual grains, i.e., smaller than 20 micrometers, uh, you know, more on the order of ice cream crystals. And so you can make pureees of things that are extremely smooth by freezing them, spinning them in the Paco Jet, and then uh using that pure, thawing it, and then when they're making a mousse, they don't make the mousse directly in the Paco Jet.
+
+[54:34] Uh what they typically do is they'll freeze it like whatever, what like on Paco Jet's website, they use broccoli. I don't know why they do that, but whatever. Then they cook the broccoli, they put it in the Paco Jet, they freeze it solid, they spin it down, and then they make a mousse out of that with whipped cream and gelatin like a standard mousse. But uh, I don't know. Does that help at all?
+
+[54:50] Okay. Uh and last, on the way out, because I have uh looks like four minutes. There's uh I don't know, in the in in in I've been at you know how the people reference you well, you don't know because you hate social media, but they reference you in a Twitter thing. Yeah. Anyway, so I've been referencing this in this uh in this line of stuff about uh um Cooks Illustrated and uh and pressure cookers.
+
+[55:09] They're going on their radio show on Valentine's Day. Yeah? Yeah. All right. So anyway, so they rated cook they rated pressure cookers, and they didn't rate the Coon Recon one, which I like a lot so highly, and they rated the Fagor one uh uh, you know, f highly, it's like one one of their favorites.
+
+[55:26] And there's all this like twittering around uh on like well, what's good and what's bad and what's not. Um here here's my two, here's my two cents. Because we talked about pressure cookers uh uh recently. Go read Cooks Illustrated uh now has their ratings online. And this is one of those situations where I think their ratings are pretty off based.
+
+[55:46] Uh, you know, go look at uh Hip Pressure Cooker, uh, you know, the blog that blog. Go look at uh Miss Vicky's pressure cooker. But the the people at Cooks Illustrated dinged the Coon Recon one because they said that it was hard for them to adjust the temperature on it. Whereas for me, it's like Coon Recon, and they also, they said, for letting me read the Cooks Illustrated uh the the um what to call it reviews on this, they said that the Coon Recon evaporated the most water uh of all like many of the pressure cookers they took they took. And it's exactly the opposite of the truth.
+
+[56:14] The reason I like Coon Recon is twofold. One, it's extremely easy at all times to see exactly what the pressure is inside of the Coon Recon, because there's a spring that indicates exactly what the pressure is inside of the Kun Recon thing. The reason I don't like the Fagor model is because it does not indicate its pressure unless it's venting out uh uh material. And people get this confused all the time. Here's what's going on.
+
+[56:41] In a pressure cooker, there are two things happening in something like a phagor pressure cooker. There's an indicator that the unit is under pressure at all, and that's a little yellow dot that pops up. As soon as that yell little yellow dot pops up, you know that the unit is under some amount of pressure. However, you don't know what that pressure is. You just know it's under some amount of pressure, right?
+
+[57:01] Then you keep the thing going and you don't know what's going on because nothing happens until steam starts coming out of the vent, right? So the the Fagor one is a venting pressure cooker, which I don't like. I don't like it because it affects the flavor of things like stocks, at least it has in the tests that I've run with it. Now, the only way to keep it at pressure then is to make sure that you're keeping that little steam going all the time, which I don't I don't like. I've never liked it.
+
+[57:23] Another thing I don't like is because there's always steam going through that valve when you're working it, that and the valve is a mechanism that turns. That valve gets clogged very easily and gets burnt out very easily. Of the five Fagor pressure cookers that we had at the French Culinary Institute for the five years that I was working with Phagor pressure cookers there, we burnt out every one that we had. The mechanisms got burnt out because they got clogged and they wouldn't hold anymore because they're hard to clean for the students that are working with them, or they would melt out because someone had flames licking over the side and the pressure mechanism, which is very close to the side of the pin and the phagor, would get ruined, right? That's never happened to me in a Coon Recon.
+
+[57:58] I've had the handles broken off of my Coon recon. I've had the little plate on the top, the diverter plate get ripped off and thrown away, but the sucker still holds pressure and doesn't clog, and the valve is extremely easy to clean. Also, Coon Recon doesn't need the vent at all. If you venting in a coon recon, it means you put it over pressure and the safety is released where where the spring goes up and releases steam out of the same spring valve. So uh, you know, both those criticisms of the Kun Recon.
+
+[58:27] Coon Recon's also fairly easy for me to uh adjust. So go online, look it up. Coon Recon, still my favorite pressure cooker. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[58:48] You can find all of our archives programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[59:12] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Catskill Provisions. Located in a small corner of Northwest Catskill Mountains. They specialize in creating raw, all natural handmade food products. For more information, visit Catskillprovisions.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwright Brooklyn.
+
+[0:18] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, coming to you live but late in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria on Tuesday in Ba Bushwick, baby. Tramming a little bit.
+
+[1:13] Yeah, chairing a little uh Bootsy. Bub Bushwick, baby. Yeah. So what happened today? Why am I late?
+
+[1:20] Yeah. It was like my normal, like it's normal. Okay, it was not because it was not because of uh last night's Booker and Dax one year anniversary party, which was crazy. Crazy party. We had uh we uh Booker and Dax, which is the bar, you know, that I have uh attached to Sambar, you know, the uh uh the Momofuku restaurant of great repute.
+
+[1:44] And uh anyway, uh, we had our one year, uh, one year we've been open one year, so we cleared away uh like all of the chairs. We had a pinata full of airline bottles of Saint Germain and Haribo. That was crazy I I beat it with our baseball bat. We have a baseball bat at uh Booker and Dax there that everyone who works at or has worked at Booker and Dax at any point signs the baseball bat in Sharpie. And it is uh, you know, it's it's up there as kind of a customer relations tool, but also uh also for pinatas, which you know, my dream is to have uh regular piñata service at the bar.
+
+[2:19] We can't do it now because we don't have an area where we can just just devote it to pinatas. You know what I mean? Wow. You you'd probably be the first. I mean, imagine if you could go.
+
+[2:29] This is my dream. You go and see, you know, is it look if you do it at your bar or restaurant, all you gotta do is say, you know, just give a little give a little props back because here's here's everyone would want to go to their on their birthday and and beat a pinata while they're drinking that's full of like cool things, not like necessarily the crap that you got when you're a kid, although the odd Hot Wheels car would not be bad in an adult pinata as well, you know. Uh, but uh, you know, kind of like adult candies, doesn't have to be full of airline bottles of booze. It was provided by a booze company, and that's why you know ours was full of airline bottles of uh plastic airline bottles, by the way. Total we're we're safety conscious folk.
+
+[3:09] But anyway, uh that's not the reason uh I was late. I was trying to find some information. I couldn't find my copy of Lowry's Meat Science, and by the time I finally found it, I missed the subway that I normally get. That's the actual reason. Nice.
+
+[3:21] Yeah. But anyways, uh unfortunately, today not joined in the studio with uh the hammer. She is uh she has some non cooking issues that she has to take care of today, so she won't be joining us. And so, you know, Jack and Joe, thank thank God, are here with us today, but you know, I don't yell at them because they don't uh irritate me on a consistent basis. They don't they don't spend like like their their entire waking moment figuring out new ways to uh get me bent out of shape.
+
+[3:50] Joe's been working on it. Yeah? Yeah, he's been he's been doing some research. Do some research, like uh do has he developed some sort of crazy you know food aversions, or does he believe in some sort of uh nutritional BS hype that's just gonna get me all spooled up and and and blasted out or no? I'm shopping for shoes right now.
+
+[4:09] Oh man, are they like are they cool shoes anyway? Really cool. Wait till wait till next week. I'm gonna have some new kicks. Alright, cool.
+
+[4:16] Well, if you if you really want to tick me off, like you know, buy 'em, wear them once and return them. That's the that's the st that's the star's jam right there. Although she hey, I think she's grown out of it. Look, we all have the things that we do, you know, when we're growing up, and sometimes it takes some of us longer to grow out of those habits than other people. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:32] That's all. That's all I'm saying. Call it your questions live to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Follow-up from uh one of our questions before.
+
+[4:41] We were talking, I think a week or two ago on um seasoning cast iron pads, a subject that comes up uh quite often, and I had mentioned that I'd read a blog by uh my her name just went straight out of my brain. That's all right. Uh because you could go look it up on the last show. But uh she recommended using linseed oil, uh aka flaxseed oil, uh a food grade version of it, of course, uh, because it's obviously uh from a painter's perspective, the drying oil par excellence, so it's going to polymerize much faster and uh uh, you know, I guess at lower temperatures, although I'm not uh I don't I don't have the numbers in front of me. Uh it's gonna make a nice coating in your in your pan.
+
+[5:16] Uh now, according to Dan, whatever it is, 76 LA, blah blah blah. I don't know whether it also has good carbon residue content, right? Which is not just adding to the polymerization, but is going to create the nonstick stuff. I'm not gonna get into that again. All I'm going to say is our good buddy, uh Michael Natkin uh from Herbavoracious, uh wrote uh wrote in uh with his two cents saying that he has tested that with uh with uh flaxseed oil, and he says that it's complete baller, awesome, super hard, awesome coating in his pants.
+
+[5:46] So, you know, we trust him, so take his advice. I have not I have not tested it. I want to start calling him, I wonder whether he'd be offended if I called him Captain Vegetable. Anyone remember that it was a little known Sesame Street character called Captain Vegetable. You guys remember this guy?
+
+[5:59] I do not. Captain Vegetable, like he's like Sesame Street went through this phase where they're trying to get, I guess, kids to eat their vegetables, and so they had this this vegetable guy who's like, it is our Captain Vegetable, but he's like ne he never became popular, like all the other like weird little Sesame Street craps, like the like the two dudes with the clock, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Remember those guys? Yeah, I got those guys. I thought they turned Cookie Monster into like the Veggie Monster, though.
+
+[6:21] Is that true? Oh God. Someone find out whether this is the case and get back to me. That's like uh that's a deal breaker right there. Yeah, that's a veggie monster?
+
+[6:31] That's the worst. The veggie- you know what? Hell no. No. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:38] God, no. Veggie monster. Unacceptable. This is not right. Uh Don Rollins writes in.
+
+[6:43] Hello at cooking issues. I'm going to start uh working in a bar that uses thin half moon ice. What can I do to keep the ice from over diluting my drinks? Alright, well, here's the deal. Uh the half moon ice, uh, I mean, it depends on the machine.
+
+[6:58] I'm assuming if you're using a commercial machine that uh well here here's the issue. A couple issues. So uh ice and dilution is related to uh a number number of factors. If you're shaking, the main problem from the half moon ice is going to be uh shards that are broken off in the uh in your shaker. Uh and those shards that are broken off actually aren't gonna uh dil over dilute your product right away, but when you strain them through your uh regular hawthorn strainer, which is the one with the spring going around it, uh those crystals make it through and those things will melt quite quickly and then they'll produce it uh uh in your glass, right?
+
+[7:34] Because normally when you're shaking a drink, you don't serve it with with ice, so the dilution is fixed from the moment it's poured out of the shaker, except for these crystals that are gonna melt out. And so the solution around that is to um is to just dump um is to just you know uh put it when you're pouring it, pour it through a double tea strainer, and that's gonna get rid of those crystals of ice. It will hurt somewhat the foamy head that you can get out of a shaking drink, but you know, there you have it. Uh also uh when you're stirring, right? When you're stirring a drink, uh it doesn't really matter what kind of ice you're using, except for things look nicer or don't look nicer, as long as you realize that the smaller the cubes and the faster you stir, the faster you're gonna dilute.
+
+[8:19] So all you have to do is adjust your uh your your times, your stirring times, uh according to the type of ice that you're using. So you can do a stirred, I mean it's if you use very, very fine ice when you're stirring, the chilling is so rapid that it's difficult to get a consistent stir out of it. But with any normal size ice, it's possible to uh get a nice consistent stir. If it's uh it's probably wet ice, in which case you should probably make it a practice to um when you put when you pack ice into something you're gonna stir with, put a strainer top over and shake the excess water out of it, snap the excess water into the sink before you do your stir. This can help uh alleviate some of the excess uh water of dilution you have on the outside, if that's a problem for your drinks.
+
+[9:03] Or just assume that you're gonna use the relatively similar amount of ice every time, and therefore the water load from the uh water on the outside of the ice is going to be the same every time you do it. It's all about consistency. With a stir drink, it's all about consistency. So as long as you can make it repeatable, you can make it good. Uh with the shake-in drinks, I really feel that a large cube is going to produce a better result.
+
+[9:25] Actually, what you really want to do is a large cube with a small cube, a couple small cubes in there. Uh, and I think we've talked about it, so I'm not gonna you know go into it again unless somebody writes it and says, please go into it again. Uh but uh you know what you can do is usually in a bar or a restaurant, there is some freezer space, and uh depending on how many shaken cocktails you make a night, it could be economical from a space standpoint, definitely from a resource standpoint, because it does cost very little to freeze ice cubes if you have the time and space. Is uh go get uh the ice cube molds, the two inch by two inch ice cube molds, get the ones from Cocktail Kingdom, which are made from uh, I believe they're made from a polyurethane, not from a silicone uh tests that I've not verified myself, but that were done by Evan Freeman, uh, you know, uh famous bartender years ago, where that certain silicone molds can impart a taste to the water uh that the ice cubes, uh that when you freeze ice cubes, it can impart a taste to them. I've never done this test myself, but this is what he says.
+
+[10:22] Uh and so that is a feasible way to generate cubes for shaking. However, when it comes to beautiful presentation ice, my friend, you are S O L. Then you'll have to do some uh either like buy ice to have it brought in, which is expensive, which is what we do, or uh start a freezing campaign with uh igloo coolers and whatnot. We could talk more about that uh if if someone's interesting. But if you're just interested in over diluting, it's it it's not going to be much of a problem.
+
+[10:45] Just make sure that you strain your shaking drinks through a tea strainer. Caller. Caller? Oh, reverb! Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[10:54] Hey Dave. My name's Nick. I'm calling from Seoul Korea. Oh, hey, Nick, that's awesome. Uh my question is about cold smoking bacon.
+
+[11:03] I've been cold smoking bacon in this large old file cabinet with uh smoke daddy attached to the side of it. Smoke that it generates and uh pumps smoke into the cabinet chamber and hence cold smoking the meat, I suppose. Uh it's been working pretty good, actually. I've been able to produce fairly good bacon with it. What concerns me though is that uh even with cold smoking, the wood still combusts.
+
+[11:26] Right. Incinerated, sending all sorts of undesirable nasty elements into the air and ultimately in onto my bacon, I suppose. So I was wondering if there's a way to prevent or drastically reduce that. Yeah, here's the the problem is is that uh the smoke flavors that you know that we all love are due to the pyrolysis of the meat, which is taking place at uh elevated temperatures, right? And so I mean there are definitely you know, if you go way over on temperature, then you can you produce more of those nasty things, then you get more also more of those burnt acrid uh, you know, those burnt acrid kind of flavors that that none of us like.
+
+[12:10] So you definitely want to control temperature, but I mean, the unfortunate truth is is that uh there are you know what are you know deemed to be carcinogenic and unhealthful components that are generated purely as as a result while the same things that we like are being produced. Now you you can filter the smoke, right? Which is I guess how they do when they're making liquid smoke, they can um they can they they recondense the smoke back to a liquid and then they can fractionate that into uh its different parts, and then um then they can separate out some of the things that are carcinogenic. But the um but it's you know very would be very difficult for you in in the way you're doing it. However, you know, you I don't know, I haven't done my my research uh you know re recently.
+
+[13:05] I probably I probably should as what the current feeling is of the actual level of risk or whether anyone's done uh risk uh you know risk increased studies based on smoke in meats and consumption. I don't know if those studies have been done yet because I haven't uh I haven't read them. My feeling is is that in the near future, and by that I mean like the next 10 or 20 years, that uh you know, air quality is becoming a lot more important. Not just food club, but air quality in kitchens is becoming more important. And uh, you know, the the research that came out you know several years ago on um the deleterious effects uh of uh wok oil smoke in uh in women in China in particular and uh increased cancer rates because of it, I think like more of those kind of studies about uh kind of airborne things in your kitchen are are going to become i important.
+
+[13:57] So I mean I would definitely invest in some good ventilation in any rate, but it's gonna be difficult to eliminate, I think, all that stuff entirely. Does that makes sense or no? Uh it does. Uh I've looked at uh vaporizers. I don't know if that's a step in the right direction or yeah.
+
+[14:12] I mean the problem is if the vaporizers are not, I mean, the whole point of the vaporizer is to try and is they're distilling they're they're they're releasing things without the burning, right? So I mean, right, they're built for they're built for liberating THC from marijuana to be blunt. Uh but the you know, I don't I've I obviously have I put wood chips in them before. I have one, uh, but I I you know, but I haven't used it. It's it's it's in years, it's packed away in my in my storage closet.
+
+[14:43] I get one out. I can get one out and test it. You want me to test it? I just don't think it's gonna generate I don't think it's gonna generate the the temperatures needed to make the smoke because I mean the whole point of the vaporizer is to have a controlled heat so that you're not getting that kind of combustion. And the flavor, the actual flavor components that we're making in wood are due to a high temperature pyrolysis uh you know, you know, reaction where that is taking place like in you know, not at like 400 F, but like at 400 C, you know, 400 Celsius, which is like what's a lot higher.
+
+[15:17] Uh I could try to dredge up at some point uh some literature on um the difference in uh the relative things that are being you know released from uh from wood smoke at different temperatures. But the issue is I think that you I think that they're inherently linked that you're making the stuff that you don't want while you're making the stuff that you do want, that you get, you know, that they come kind of hand in hand. Um but and I don't know of any good way to uh filter it except I wonder whether you could draw the smoke through water and get rid of some of something. I don't know. I'd have I have to do some uh research.
+
+[15:50] It might be it might be possible, but I think you're not gonna you're not gonna be able to generate the flavor you want without generating the unwanted stuff that you know that you don't want. That's my feeling. I could be wrong. I'd like to get some other input on it. I have to do some more research.
+
+[16:04] Alrighty. Alrighty. Well, listen, uh shoot me back on Twitter with anything you find. And I'll and if I if I if I can find anything interesting, I'll talk about it on the next show. All right, thanks.
+
+[16:13] Thank you for calling in from South Korea. You want to take our first break? We have another caller. Oh, we have another caller? All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[16:20] Hi, Dave. This is uh Nick from Denver. How's it going? Going all right. How's Denver doing?
+
+[16:25] Good, good. Nice. Um so I had a question about um it was uh Nasin Mirvald's new book. Um it was Modernist Cuisine for Home. Right.
+
+[16:34] Um, and I was going to do his short ribs recipe and um he commented on uh using zip top bags for uh I think a long period of time with low temperature cooking. And he mentioned that for um safety and reliability issues, he recommended only using um a vacuum sealed bag. And I was just wondering if you could comment on that. Mostly for the safety issue. Well, why did he say it was unsafe?
+
+[17:00] Do you remember? I don't have the book. Uh so he he just mentioned that it was unsafe, and then he uh on his uh on his recipe page and then he referenced another page in the book, but it didn't really go into any more detail on what on why it would be unsafe. What temperature are you cooking? Um it was going to be 60 degrees Celsius for about two days.
+
+[17:22] Yeah. So it's an it's an interesting point. Uh I've heard other people say that there is some sort of a safety issue with it. Now, here's here's something I know for a fact. Uh Grant Aikitz, maybe four years ago, posted a video online using Ziploc bags uh and got uh an angry call from S.
+
+[17:44] C. Johnson Wax, a family company, and saying that they're not uh they're not set up to be used for that uh XYZYZ because they haven't tested it, right? And so I don't know where this the safety issue on zippies came in uh regards to cooking because they're rated for reheating. They're made from polyethylene without plasticizers. Uh so and they're rated to be in constant contact with your food at normal ambient temperatures f indefinitely.
+
+[18:20] Uh and they're rated for reheating the food. I don't know of any published data saying that there is anything that's leaching in or out of polyethylene ziploc bags. And by the way, if you smell a Ziploc bag as opposed to smelling polyethylene film, polyethylene film uh has to have uh the thin stuff like saran, it's not saran, but you know what I mean, the the plastic wrap. Uh they have solvents in them to help them uh get them into those thin sheets and roll them out quickly, and those have an odor almost always, uh, whereas uh zippies do not. Uh so you know I always consider them relatively neutral.
+
+[19:00] I don't really understand where the safety issue comes in so long as your temperatures are down like 60 and and 50, where uh as far as I can tell, polyethylene is fine in those service ranges for continuous duty, right? Now, uh I could be wrong on this because I haven't looked up the studies right now, but this is my feeling. Here's the issue on uh on polyethylene. Is it is polyethylene, unless you have one that has a special vapor barrier in it, like a multi multi-layer uh film technology in it, uh polyethylene not such a great vapor layer. Yeah, that's why I use the by the way, the um the ones that are rated for freezer, because they're supposedly a better vapor barrier.
+
+[19:46] But you can get oxygen migration through a Ziploc bag because they're not as depending on which one you use, because they're not as um they're not as gas impermeable. So there could be perhaps a quality issue over time. Also, remember there is residual oxygen inside of a Ziploc bag more so than in a vacuum. But you also have to remember that when I'm vacuuming down uh a lot of products, I mean, re red meat's not so much, but like on other things, I'm not sucking a hard vacuum anyway, because I think it's deleterious to the meat quality. So I I don't really I uh look i there is an issue where uh you know someone could take a Ziploc bag and put the temperature too high and then you get melting, right?
+
+[20:25] At 60, I don't really see that that's a problem. Also, uh there could be an issue with residual oxygen in the bag. However, over a two-day cook period at 140 degrees uh Fahrenheit, 60 Celsius, ain't nothing growing in that thing. Do you know what I mean? You know, perhaps it might be deleterious on on uh on its capability to be stored for a long period of time, but if you're not using it for extremely lengthy lengthy storage, right, I don't see that it's that uh big big of a deal.
+
+[20:53] You might get uh you know perhaps you know slightly more oxidation in there than you would otherwise, but again, not a safety issue. So I don't I don't really understand where this comes from, and I've heard other people talk about it, unless it's like and Nathan is not the kind of guy who uh so so there are many books, and I I won't I won't name them in particular uh and authors and people in general who they're there are when they write they say things that are untrue uh and they know it's untrue if you go and you call them on it, they say it because, well, it's too complicated to explain what's really going on to the average cook, right? And uh and I don't want them to make a mistake and do something that's dangerous, so I'll just tell them it's unsafe to do something even though it's not true. And I've had this conversation with authors, with chefs and with teachers. And I think that's a cra I think that's a crap way of working.
+
+[21:43] You know what I mean? I think it's just uh I think it's doing a complete disservice. Nathan's not that kind of a guy. So for all I know, he has a reference somewhere about it being unsafe, but I'd lo I'd love to see it because I consider uh low temperature, and by that I mean kind of sixty even up to sixty-three and below in a zippy to be fine practice. I only do it on short-term cooks, but I don't uh and he I know is fine with it on short term cooking in the range of several hours.
+
+[22:11] But I don't know uh I don't know what study he's referencing to say that it's gonna be bad for longer periods. It's a long-winded answer, I'm sorry, but it's kind of an important subject. Yeah. Then I feel like I didn't answer your question at all, but it's pretty helpful. It's pretty helpful.
+
+[22:25] All right. All right. Well, look it try to find it and twit uh you know, tweet on in to the cooking issue, see if you can find his reference for that or uh where he references it from, uh, because uh this is a discussion I'd love to have uh either with him or anyone else uh on it because it's something that I'd like to get to the bottom of because the Ziploc bag is a fantastic tool for all of those people who can afford a circulator, especially at the lower price point now, or who make your own, but don't have the several thousand dollars it takes to make a vacuum machine. And zippies are still the best way to cook uh things like um uh fish that you don't really want to vacuum, or poultry that you don't really want to vacuum. Uh, or if you don't have time to chill down your meat after your initial sear and you want to do zippies to cook a steak, me, zippy, you know, zippies are great.
+
+[23:09] I love them. Uh, even though the SC Johnson Wax family company does not want me to use them for this purpose, uh, I find them incredibly useful. So I I'd really like to know if I'm doing a bad thing. Sound good? All right.
+
+[23:21] Uh all right, thank you, brother. Thanks for calling in. Uh, and let's go to our first commercial break. Uh Fish is Fish Is Vodka. You're listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[24:48] Cat Skill Provisions has Valentine's Day literally in the bag with their seal the deal gift bag. Start with chocolate honey truffles and then move on to breakfast and bed with their traceable organic pancake mix and New York State maple syrup. Sure to satisfy any ardent local. Check out the Cat Skill Provisions Seal the Deal package at www.catskillprovisions.com. What do you think of that?
+
+[25:14] Seal the deal Valentine's Day package. Seal the deal. You know, that is a that is an admirable name. Seal the deal. Yeah.
+
+[25:21] You know what I mean? And it's like even just buying it implies that you know you're gonna seal the deal, right? So it's like if you have any, if you're wondering, are you gonna seal the deal? You get to seal the deal package, you're like, deal is sealed. Right?
+
+[25:35] I mean, that's it, deal is sealed. You know, uh like I will not name any names, but uh, you know, again, I have uh uh a bar, and one of the functions of a bar uh is to take two people who are looking to find uh other people to do other things with and to meet them to kind of grease the social wheels as they say and then let them go off, right? This is one of the functions of a bar. And uh, you know, I was playing some hardcore seal the deal music last night. I was busting out uh, you know, ignition.
+
+[26:06] I was yeah. I mean, like I I was doing we did we did about a two hour um kind of like uh dan like dancy dancy kind of like rap anthem set like you know, California love and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, afterwards I broke into like a couple I went ignition and then a couple other songs like that, and then Barry White at the end of the night went after we did the last call into Marvin Gaye, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna call you out. You know who you are. We're not sealing the deal.
+
+[26:37] Why do I go to work? Why do I get up? Why do I eat breakfast and work and breathe air if I cannot help you seal the deal? You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[26:46] Man, Barry White into Marvin Gay is like that's like level five seal the deal. I know it. And you know what? You know what the problem was? The individual who I'm talking to, maybe you should have gotten the Catskill provisions sealed in the situation.
+
+[26:59] Because then, as we say here at Cooking Issues, it's pre-sealed. Right? You know what may not seal the deal? I I love we've got we got an audition video in from Joel Gargano. I wish I wish I could play this.
+
+[27:13] I mean, it's radio, obviously. We can't see the video, but we've got Joel just standing here with a guitar, kind of looking at the camera, and he's playing an acoustic version of the cooking issues theme song. So let's let's give that a quick run before we move on. Alright, let's do it. One second here.
+
+[27:28] What's Joel's group again? Uh I don't think he has a name for it. Cooking Issues intro. Go. We're all social creas.
+
+[27:50] We've got some questions. Jackie Joe 2. They're all here now. So let's say help us. What do you think, man?
+
+[28:07] I think I think we've got like an American Idol show we can put together now. Definitely. And and and thank you for finally giving Joe, in the song. You know why? You know why, fellow frontman, fellow front men, frontmen always give each other props.
+
+[28:14] Am I right, Joe? It's it's hard work, man. It is. It's hard work being the front man. Right.
+
+[28:25] I mean, because you have to be you have to be on all the time. I mean, you do get you get all the benefits as well, but you always have to, you know, pretend that you're like, you know, all juiced up, right? Yeah. There's there's lots of uh, you know, just pretending you're pretending that you're actually excited when you're not. Yeah.
+
+[28:39] Like you're ready to rock, but you're actually really ready to go to bed. Look, I tell people this all the time. And it's the same with cooking, doing demos, like being here. It's like it, you know, the the average person, like they're there to see you perform. They don't care whether you've had a bad day.
+
+[28:53] What is that what does that matter to them? They don't they don't give a rat's behind whether or not, you know, you know, your foot just fell off or you know, you you know, your your puppy fell in your meat grinder. That's not important to them. What's important to them, they came to see a show. You agreed to provide a show.
+
+[29:07] Uh, they came to see the show. So you gotta get amped up. That's all there is. That's why, you know, even as much as I love why I'm not gonna get into discussion of you know Axl Rose and the old Guns N' Roses shows. I'm just not gonna get into it.
+
+[29:17] I'm just not gonna get into it right now. But uh, right? You'll you're not that you're not the kind of like Joe. You're not the kind of like hat over your head, stare at the floor kind of a front man, are you? No, no, not at all.
+
+[29:26] Yeah, good. Good. I mean uh uh look. It's a show. Yeah, there's a certain place for that.
+
+[29:31] There's a certain kind of music where everyone's like, hey, let's let's all let's all you know, let's go see someone who doesn't care whether I'm alive or dead. Yeah, let's let's just be sad and in a room together. Yeah, no. Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, that was never me.
+
+[29:43] Like well, I mean you obviously that's not how I like to work. Obviously. Uh anyway, okay. So what's the story? Joel's gonna come in and and serenade uh the Joel's gonna come in in March.
+
+[29:54] Yeah, he's gonna do the song live. We're gonna record it here, and he he said he really wants to do some commercials like the TechServe one because he feels it may be a life-changing experience. So I'm I'm not gonna deny him that opportunity. Hey, hey man, it's it's it's not it's not my money. Talk to the TechServe people.
+
+[30:08] I'm for it. That's right. Right? Right? All right.
+
+[30:12] So uh howdy everyone. Would why would you choose one method of applying Activa RM over another? By the way, Activa RM is the brand name for uh Ginamoto, the MSG people's meat glue, transglutaminase, the enzyme, the miracle enzyme that's used to glue or weld bond uh meat together. Uh uh and so i i it's transglutaminase uh by a Ginamoto is a company Activa is the uh is the brand name for all their transglutaminases and RM is the one that's most commonly used. And it's a mixture of enzyme, uh casein, which milk protein, and um and uh maltodextrin, okay?
+
+[30:52] And you can either sprinkle it onto things or you can make it into a paste and paint it on. Okay. Uh which is a slurry. It's called the slurry technique. Just so you guys know, in case you don't know.
+
+[31:01] Uh is a slurry better for some app and you can buy it from modernist pantry.com, even though they're not sponsored anymore. Okay. Uh is a slurry better for some applications, uh, and a sprinkling better for others. Have you done any tests with commercial? Okay, that's one first question.
+
+[31:15] Uh look, Nils, who uh you know, I I I got my first meat glue from Nils, uh Norrin and from Wiley, because they were the two first people in New York to use it. And I think Wiley might use slurries sometimes, but Nils always hated the slurries because he didn't want to put a lot of liquid into the meats that he was uh gluing. So he always did uh sprinkle. Uh there's sometimes a slurry is okay, but uh, you know, ninety nine point nine percent of the actual gluing of meats together that I do, I do uh with uh a sprinkle technique. Um you know, the the the paste thing is you know fast.
+
+[31:50] I guess it's easy to dose out, but I just never uh big uh proponent of it uh so much. Okay. And then second, have you done any tests with commercial grade beef cooked sous vide? I was reading up on beef grading recently and never knew uh commercial grade beef is basically beef from older uh animals that are marble that are that are marbled like prime beef. Not technically, but like in other words, primer choice, I think uh it uh any of those are commercial.
+
+[32:16] Um couldn't a great deal of money be saved and deeper flavor realized by cooking commercial beef sous vide until tender. If so, where would a consumer find the lower grades of beef? Okay, this is a very interesting question. Uh I have never actually run the test. I don't have any um personal experience cooking uh older meats.
+
+[32:35] But the way meat grading works is uh meat grading is bizarre because it's based uh solely on the goal, the sole goal of beef grading is tenderness. That's it. Uh they don't care flavor or anything like that, except for they also grade much higher for fat, right? So the the way it works is if you look at the beef grading charts and um you see that there on the there's uh an age range and then a fat marbling range, and you have to be in certain things. So older cuts of meat, older animals uh have in general uh tougher meat, and you know, 100% they will have tougher meat.
+
+[33:12] The same animals' meat will get tougher as it ages, right? Uh and so at a certain point, uh after I think, you know, 24 months or whatever, it it's no longer really labeled as either prime or choice. And but it can be extremely highly marbled, in which case uh it is sold as commercial, right? So standard is what's lower marble. I believe standard beef is lower marbled than choice, right?
+
+[33:40] But young, right? Whereas commercial can be very highly marbled. In fact, I think it has to be more highly marbled in order, otherwise it would be canner beef or whatnot, but is from an older animal. And it's going to be tougher, and so people don't, but I don't know a good source of getting it. I will say this.
+
+[34:03] By going to uh Spain and having going to a restaurant whose whose specialty is old, old meat, like seven-year-old meat. And they said the flavor of it was fantastic. Now, as you point out, low temperature cooking might be a good way to tenderize these cuts of meats that are older. Here are the caveats and what I think. In general, what I think you're going to want to do is get a uh a well-finished, highly marbled older piece of meat and then dry age it.
+
+[34:32] You know, these older cuts of meat, I think you're going to want to dry age them to increase the tenderness because uh my feeling is if you try to tenderize the meat just by doing low temperature cooking, that uh you might have a tendency over time, because remember, when a meat gets older, uh not the it's not just the collagen changing and and the muscles changing, the enzyme uh components are changing, the um you know the darkness of it, the flavor of it. Uh and so I have a feeling that the older the meat is, the more it might get a kind of livery or gamey taste as it's cooked for long periods in a bag. So I might say that a dry aging of it might be a better way to do it. Get like a primal and then dry age it and then do, you know, one of your normal low temperature cooking. Because I, you know, again, I find that low temperature cooking to tenderize tough meats that aren't tough because of collagen, but are tough because the muscle fibers themselves have toughened up.
+
+[35:24] Uh tends to produce mushy meat when it's cooked for a long time. I really no one ever gets into discussions with me about mushy versus tender, but I think it's something that really wants to be uh talked about. Just a note if you're going to buy muscle meat that's from animals over 30 uh months of age in the United States, uh, you need to make sure that uh that all of the spinal material and any nerve material has been removed because that's uh you know, precautions that are taken for BSE, bovine, spongiform, encephalopathy, acquis Kreutzfeld, new variant, the deadly disease known as Mad Cow. Okay. Um that makes sense, guys?
+
+[36:01] Or no. Yeah, they don't care. They're like that. Now they're being like Nastasha, like ah, they don't care. They don't care.
+
+[36:06] Okay. Uh Anna from Budapest writes in, dear Nastasha, Dave, and Jack. Joe, you got shaft on this one again. Uh, I mean, Joe, yeah, I said Joe, right? Uh, I've been listening to your show for over a year now, and in the meantime, I'm trying to listen to old episodes as well.
+
+[36:19] I still have 14 left, so I'm hesitant whether my question has already been mentioned, but I'll give it a go. Hey, if you only have 14 episodes left, I mean we've had like a hundred episodes, 100 and change episodes, right? I mean, we can we can we can double up on a question, but you I don't think uh you've answered this one yet. In October, we were lucky enough to get an invitation to an Uruguayan wedding. Uh, and during a two-week uh Buenos Aires Uruguay trip, we had a great time.
+
+[36:39] My fiance had been obsessed with dulce de leche. By the way, I love to call it Dolce Dolce and uh dulce sorry, dulce de leche and piss off all my all all my Spanish friends. But some I won't do that though. Dulce de leche. Uh before uh I got hooked as well, uh while I was there.
+
+[36:55] We had a chance to stay with locals who actually make their own dulce de leche from scratch, and they told us the recipe, but for some reason it does not work for us. We don't get the right consistency. And ours is runny instead of thick and creamy. I was wondering if you could tell me what we were doing wrong or if we were missing something or have a uh have a recipe, if I have a recipe that really works. Uh our recipe is two liters of milk, uh two liters of water, one kilo of sugar, one teaspoon of soda.
+
+[37:16] We're told to heat the milk, the water, and sugar together. Once the liquid boils, we should put the soda in it and let it simmer for two hours, stirring once in a while. I use whole milk from the farmer's market. The second time I even added some golden syrups uh because I thought the sugar uh might help the consistency, but there's no difference. In fact, the one with the sugar syrup got runnier.
+
+[37:32] We tried cooking for four and a half hours and only two hours to see if it thickens, uh, but it didn't. The liquid turns dark, I guess because of caramelization, but doesn't get thick. Uh should we put butter in at some point? If yes, when should we cover the pan with a lid? Should we stir it or let it simmer?
+
+[37:45] What does the soda do, etc., etc.? Alright, look. Uh I don't know what the water is in there for. I once uh, you know, my typical way of making uh the making the dulce de leche is to use the uh sweetened condensed milk uh uh and put it in a uh in a pressure cooker for between at 15 psi between 45 minutes and an hour. I know that's cheating.
+
+[38:07] The first time I ever saw someone make the real stuff, and of course they called it a requipe, but uh you know, was in uh Colombia, up in the in the mountains over there in Colombia. They uh this like little old lady you made it by just pouring milk in a pan. I was like, oh, whoa, you can do that. Here's here's what's going on with it. Now, if you look at Indian sweets, uh they have boiled uh milk salads, but they're not as brown as the dulce de leche because they're not adding that uh baking soda.
+
+[38:33] Now, I uh I've heard some people say the baking soda is not necessary. However, I think it is. What the baking soda is doing is it's not really caramelization that you're looking at. You're actually doing uh Mayard reactions to it with the high heat, right? And that's accelerated by adding uh the baking soda, which is uh alkaline.
+
+[38:50] So the alkaline stuff is there to help the browning along as it cookings. The thickening of the dulce de leche is strictly due to the concentration of milk solids. And as the milk solids get more concentrated in the presence of the uh the alkaline baking soda, it's gonna get browner and browner and thicker and thicker. To give you an idea, standard a standard practice would be to take I don't I see I think your main problem you need on you need the lid off, by the way, because you need to evaporate water. I think your main problem right there is the uh water.
+
+[39:21] I don't know why the water is in the recipe at all. I mean, typical thing would be to take uh for every liter of uh of milk to take with add sugar baking soda, take it down to about uh 250 mils. And I think that's gonna be uh your main uh problem. Do it on a volume basis, not on a time basis. What's uh what's up, Jack?
+
+[39:40] Oh, wow, you you saw you saw me get animated, huh? I didn't even need to say anything. I have a question for for cooking issues, actually. All right. So we we we spoke with Harold McGee on Friday.
+
+[39:51] We're doing this this series of recordings, and he was one of our featured guys kind of telling his life story. Which, by the way, really interesting, he's uh he's got Indian heritage. I didn't know that. But um he he sort of spoke about avant-garde cuisine and modern cuisine as two separate things. I was wondering how you see those as different.
+
+[40:11] Well, Harold, you know, uh you know, Harold and I have been having this discussion for a long time before uh, you know, uh Mirvold and Chris and you know Maxime and that whole crew proposed modernist cuisine as the title of their book. And uh, you know, the title of that book was proposed specifically because um specifically because you know no one wanted to use the term molecular gastronomy because everyone hates it. You know, everyone who does that kind of work hates it, pretty much in the in the US. And so prior to that, you know, uh you know, m MG and I a lot of times, you know, he would say avant-garde or kind of cutting edge or new or or or whatnot. But uh, you know, avant-garde is always, you know, it was good because it always just means new, and it doesn't imply technology.
+
+[41:01] I mean the important thing is that uh you know, a lot of what's going on isn't technology related. Do you know what I mean? A lot of what's going on in terms of kind of new creativity in food isn't necessarily uh technology. You know, Daniel Patterson doesn't use a whole crap load of technology necessarily or even hydrocolloids anymore, but you would definitely consider his cooking to be part of the avant-garde cooking. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[41:25] Yeah. So I think you know, a lot of it has to do with uh the the focus. I think modernist was, you know, uh, you know, that crews stab at a word that they thought they could get to stick that that that they you know, but my feeling is like every word that describes this is loaded. Avant garde is loaded term, modernist is a loaded t term. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:47] So they're all they're all loaded. Uh in I prefer any of them to molecular. Fair enough, yeah. Yeah. We I I definitely struck that term from from my vocabulary.
+
+[41:56] Yeah, you know what? It's like, yeah, we get it. You know, molecular is easy for people to to wrap their head around, and you know, some people made some uh you know were able to write a bunch of articles, and some chefs got some extra customers because of it, but it's just weak term. Kind of like mixology, right? Mixology, I always hated mixology.
+
+[42:14] Uh turns out that has a longer history, and so I'm getting less and less. I mean, uh I can count on zero fingers the number of times I've referred to myself as a mixologist, but I don't get as angry about the word. I I that that's one of those words that I don't use, but I let it just flow over my head like like water. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[42:34] Kind of like food scientist. Yeah, that one, another one. Like it's like, you know, it uh it would be nice if I was actually a scientist, but I'm not, you know, I'm kind of uh a cook. So uh, but I can read science. I'm not afraid of science.
+
+[42:48] Science doesn't intimidate me, but just not being intimidated by science doesn't make you a scientist. You know what I mean? Fair point. Yeah. Uh we've got time for like one more.
+
+[42:57] Oh man. Well, you know how many shows do I have before Valentine's Day? Uh one next week would be before two, two more. All right. Listen, so Ben from San Francisco, I'm gonna get your question next week on Valentine's because I'm not gonna suggest anything it takes more than a week for you to do, right?
+
+[43:15] Uh so he had a question on he wants to do like a blowout meal for uh Valentine's Day, and I have a lot of suggestions as someone who's cooked many Valentine's uh meals for my wife. You know, we've been together over 20 years. I haven't been married over 20 years, we've been together over 20 years. So I know a lot about cooking for Valentine's at different stages in your life. I've got a Valentine's Day idea.
+
+[43:35] Yeah. Seal the deal. Cat Skill Provisions. Boom! Boom!
+
+[43:39] Uh okay, so we'll handle that one uh next week. Um man, we can tell these questions. I want to devote more time to them. Uh Tim Timothy wrote in about uh some calcium. I have to I'll I'll do this quick.
+
+[43:54] I'll do this quick. Timothy, I hope this is still a place to email questions. It is, otherwise I wouldn't have it. Uh I bought some calcium citrate after reading a New York Times article in the magazine about pre-sliced apples, and was curious if you or Dave had any experience with it or any recommendations for uses beyond the obvious prevention of fruit surface oxidation. Uh and secondly, Dave's spoken on air a few times about the effects of increased acidity in sourdough, slackness, slightly translucent, glossy crumb, etc.
+
+[44:19] And was curious if I can balance that acidity by adding some calcium carbonate. Would this totally poison the bacteria and yeast living in my dough? Or would I get a product with some sourdough flavor and a texture more like bread made with regular yeast? Alright, I'm gonna knock these out bing bang. Um the the apple the article uh referenced in the New York Times magazine was about companies that slice up apples and then dip them in something called nature seal uh that causes the sliced apples to both not turn brown and not turn mushy uh while they sit in your grocery uh case, you know, for like a billion and a half years.
+
+[44:51] But uh actually the calcium is there, not the two main ingredients in nature seal uh are an antioxidant, and it's the antioxidant in it that is preventing the surface oxidation by preventing polyphenol oxidase, which is an enzyme from uh breaking things uh from breaking down um uh you know chemicals in the or agglomerate of them, I guess, in uh in the apple and making it turn brown, right? So that's an antioxidant. The second main active component in uh in the I think it's called nature seal or fresh seal or something like that, is uh the calcium, calcium uh citrate. And calcium citrate is uh is a calcium uh that doesn't have a nasty kind of flavor, it's mildly soluble, but the calcium is primarily there to uh actually craw to uh help stiffen crosslink the pectin. So the calcium is there as a pectin strengthener.
+
+[45:44] So what's going on, they soak it and the surface of the apple gets strong so that it doesn't get mushy even though it's been cut. So it's not there to prevent oxidation. The calcium is there in that case to prevent uh things from getting mushy. And you can use calcium treatment uh in uh and it's better if you also use it with uh some pectin methylesterase enzyme, aka novo shape. Again, I don't know if anyone carries it yet, to uh harden the outside of things that you want to stay crisp on the outside, even if they're cooked.
+
+[46:10] And so you can look at things like uh uh mugaritz's ossified uh uh vegetables, or I, you know, you can add a pinch of calcium to boiling water along with baking soda to counteract the two effects, uh so you can get bright green, like really cooked through uh vegetables that aren't uh total mush bags. Anyway, uh this your second uh hit can you add calcium carbonate to dough? Yeah, calcium carbonate is added to dough as a pH as a dough improver, and it will affect pH because calcium carbonate will react with acid uh whether it's lactic or acetic to form um either uh you know a calcium uh acetate or uh a lactate uh and and reduce the acidity. It won't poison it. However, the the whole the whole point of uh the sourdough is that the it depends on when you're gonna add it.
+
+[46:54] Sourdough starter, you don't want the the pH to be too low for it to be too acidic because it's gonna it's gonna exhaust your uh your bacteria and your yeast, they won't be growing well and they won't be a healthy culture. So you want to maintain the pH uh at the proper level, not just for the flavor of it, but for the health of the actual starter itself. That said, yes, calcium carbonate can be used uh for you know moderate adjustments in uh dough pH. Alright, now on the way out, because I have 13 seconds. Eddie Shepherd writes in from the UK, and uh, I'm gonna let everyone ponder and say what they think on it.
+
+[47:26] Quick question, because I was musing on this myself today. It's not a tech question, but I hope it's okay. Of course it is. So I uh myself, this is Eddie writing, uh, did a philosophy degree before I uh became a chef, and I know Dave studied philosophy, as did Wiley. Uh, I think also maybe Chang, too.
+
+[47:40] Then this week I just met two other chefs that share this background, which I had previously thought was a pretty obscure route to have taken to end up as a chef. So I wondered what, if anything, you thought it might be that connects these two disciplines, or why you think they both seem to appeal to some of us. Of course, there may be no connection, and it's just coincidence a few of us share a philosophy background, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts all the best, Eddie Shepherd. Eddie, this is an interesting point. What's with the philosophy majors in the cooking?
+
+[48:06] I don't know. I want everyone to think about that if you care. Maybe tweet in some stuff, email us for next week, and we'll have a discussion when Estas back on Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[48:38] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Brooklyn Kitchen, a mom and pop operation since 2006. They provide the tools that shape our food culture. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklyn Kitchen.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radion Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:01] Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Kitchen is coming after you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to roughly 1 in the back of Robertus Pizza in Bushwick, Brooklyn Here again today with Nastasha Hammer Lopez. Welcome back. Thank you.
+
+[1:20] And and as usual, Jack and uh Joe over in the engineering room. Howdy. Uh by the way, Nastasha, someone uh I said on the tweet out for today's uh program that you were gonna be back. And uh I said, you know, the hammer's gonna be back, and someone's like, is that your nickname? I'm like, no, that's Nastasha's nickname.
+
+[1:37] And uh he's like, Well, what's her Twitter handle? And I was like, Oh, ooh, ooh, no, no, no, no, no, no Twitter handle. I was like, uh you know why well Nastasha only believes in anti-social media. So I told him that Nastasha refuses to have a Twitter handle until they invent antisocial media, and then someone else chimed in and's like, it it already is freaking antisocial media. I was like, hey, hey, point taken.
+
+[2:02] Point taken. So yeah, so apparently, like people are so mean and rough on Twitter, you might actually enjoy it. Like if you had a Twitter handle that had nothing to do with work, so you didn't have to be nice if you could just sit there and be incredibly vicious to people, but people didn't know maybe who you were. You would love that. Yeah.
+
+[2:17] You can do that. Look, it doesn't the Nastasha will invest any amount of time to be vicious that is is needed to be invested. She's always typing on the computer anyway. Why not have it be like uh why not have it be towards Twitter? Oh, Nastasia, you know what Joe did last week while you're gone?
+
+[2:33] He shopped for shoes during the show. Thanks for holding the torch, Joe. Boom! Yeah, no one actually knows what Nastasha is doing on that computer. It's vicious.
+
+[2:43] It's crazy. She's not anyway. Uh welcome back. Thanks. Yeah, how you doing?
+
+[2:47] What would your twit like I'm sure the hammer's already taken, so you couldn't even have that Twitter handle if you wanted. I think it'd have to be a like a secret name so I can call out people. Like me. Yeah. Like you wouldn't tell me.
+
+[2:58] Yeah. You would write in and be like, this guy doesn't know anything. He's an idiot. He's a moron. Right?
+
+[3:04] Uh-huh. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. Uh calling your questions to 718497, 2128, that's 718497-2128. We have one more show before the Valentine's Day, correct?
+
+[3:14] I don't know. Uh yeah. Are you big on Valentine's Day? You know I am. You know I love the Oh I love I mean, I don't really look, and now look, I have two kids, an 11-year-old and uh and an eight-year-old.
+
+[3:24] So I'm more worried about their Valentine's Day at this point, which, you know, when I at that age for me. Growing up Valentine's Day. Get the all ready, Jack. I don't know. I won.
+
+[3:35] Like, oh look, like you get ready to play DJ Collet, all I do is win because I freaking won. Wow. But the point of the matter is, like, in order to become like the all-time champion, like my wife is awesome. Super psyched. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:44] And we started going out on Valentine's Day. So Valentine's Day, almost tw 21 years ago, this Valentine's Day, uh, my wife and I, our relationship can go to the bar and have a drink. Because we've been going out. We will have been together 21 years at that point. But um But yeah, I mean, Valentine's Day always sucked for me.
+
+[4:05] I always hated it growing up. I'm sure my kids will be the same way. Actually, Dax. I bet Dax will have good Valentine's Days. Yeah.
+
+[4:11] It doesn't really matter until like what? I don't know, 14, 13. No, you know what, dude? You're in the thing. I mean, even before then, even like 11, you know, 11, 12, you have to buy the carnations.
+
+[4:22] Is this just in the East Coast, or do we all is everyone in the world have this? Where like you buy carnations and you write stuff on it and the money goes to the school, like to the to the school body, and they go around on Valentine's Day and they hand out the carnations. Might just be. It's just East Coast? Maybe, yeah.
+
+[4:36] Jack, you did that stuff? No. I never did that. Joe? No?
+
+[4:41] No one? Anyway. Horrible. Horrible. And I always they they always, if you never, if no one bought you one, if your friends didn't buy you one, and you would buy different colors, like red was I love you, and green was I don't know.
+
+[4:52] I don't know what the hell green was. Anyway, it's like because who the hell they're fake, these carnations. They just dip the they dip the stems in in coloring and it colors up the carnation. Ridiculous. And you know, it's these crappy carnations that give carnations, which by the way, are a fine flower.
+
+[5:05] It took my it took me about 12 years or 13 years to convince my wife that the carnation was a legitimately good flower. Because she's like, they suck because she's only used to shitty carn. Ooh. Crappy carnations. Crappy carnations.
+
+[5:20] Sorry, folks. Anyway, we've got a collar. Wow. Whoa. Alright, anyway.
+
+[5:26] I I got the Secret Admira one, which means no one bought me one. Now you can play the off. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hi, that's Johnny Clark from Memphis. Hey Sunday.
+
+[5:35] How are you doing? Doing all right? I'm doing good. I got picked up some stainless steel uh tubing yesterday. Oh yeah.
+
+[5:43] Okay. Yeah yeah, about four and a half feet of it and had it cut into one inch sections and uh leveled it off and everything. And I was trying to figure out the best way to keep the I was making like a savory cheesecake and I wanted to uh cook it in the circulator. Right. And I was trying to figure out the best way to keep it in there because it started pouring out and you know, when the vacuum was pulling, it's pouring out.
+
+[6:11] Yeah, it'll pour out when the So you're bagging how many tubes per? Uh one tube per uh large bug. All right, here's here's the awesome thing. Did you let the vacuum cycle complete? Uh no, I didn't.
+
+[6:28] It's it seemed like it was gonna come up out of the bag. Yeah, yeah, here's here's yeah, here's this is awesome. Now there I mean, oh look, the one problem with course is a cheesecake has some air in it, but assuming you have a fully dense product, let the vacuum cycle complete. Here's what happens when you vacuum something uh it with a with a tube like that. First of all, you gotta make sure that you have enough liquid to fully fill the tube.
+
+[6:48] Because if you don't, the bag will go in and puncture itself on the tube. But if you have enough liquid to fill the tube, all of the liquid will be smashed back into it's a miracle. Well, how liquidy is this? Is it semi solid or or what? Well, it it's cheesecake, but it's uh made with uh like a seventy-five percent moscarome.
+
+[7:10] Uh and it it's pretty much like uh screwone consistency. Right in the end. Right. So here's what's awesome. Like uh like when you suck a vacuum on a straight liquid, I've never tried it with something that's a paste consistency, everything's gonna boil out of your container, and then as soon as the vacuum comes back in, the force of the vacuum will smash it back into the tube.
+
+[7:35] Okay. So it would it'll do that with a dent uh liquid as well, like uh the cheesecake you think? As long as it can move. I mean, you might not get a hundred percent back, but you'll definitely get like ninety-five. I mean, I used to that used to be one of my favorite things to do, uh, because we would vacuum I would vacuum pack uh liquids in in in uh bottles, you know, like doing that.
+
+[7:56] I would like I would pour all the liquid into the bag and then like have the cap on very loose and then put it all in a bag and then suck a vacuum and then the vacuum would shoot all of the liquid inside the bottle. Uh yeah. You know, that's my I used to do that, that's fun. I mean, the you your point is well taken on something that's thick, I mean it eventually will work the way back in there because otherwise there's gonna be a lot of excess force on it because there's gonna be now the the the question is is will the product get forced back into the tube uh prior to the bag feeling enough force on the uh in the um i in the cavity on the inside of the tube prior to that shattering, right? I mean that's the real question.
+
+[8:33] But another thing you could do is I mean, uh do you do you need the vacuum to get the air out? Or are you having problems with air in it without the vacuum? I was trying no, I w uh it does fine in a conventional oven, but I was trying to uh I wanted to try the sous lead cheesecake because I wanted it I wanted the uh the consistency to be like you know uh no air whatsoever, no pocket, no nothing like that. Sure. Well then uh yeah, okay.
+
+[9:03] So if you're looking to compl make it much denser, it then definitely vacuum's the way to go, and just do it and see whether or not it all gets forced back into the tube. I think you have a very good shot of it all being forced back into the tube. You might have to clip the two ends because they're gonna be a little concave or convex, depending on whether you slightly overstuffed or slightly understuffed the tube. But I would definitely go that way. If you're not worried about the density issue, if you're just trying using it as a temperature control issue, well, then I would uh, you know, if you had access to a C vap, obviously I would just cook it in a C vap or a combi oven.
+
+[9:35] But if not, I would try wrapping the tube after it's stuffed with uh saran with plastic wrap, doing a uh you know, a couple of layers of it, uh, and that should be watertight enough for you to potion it that way. But if you're looking to actually remove all the air and dedensify it, I would say that vacuum is the way to go, and it'll all get shoved back in. In fact excuse me, in fact, the reason that it's puffing out is not just because the water lake the water and liquids inside are turning to a vapor, although that's causing it. But any air pockets that you're having in there need to push open and push the product out of the way to get out of the tube. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[10:10] Yeah, so you think I should put in like a a four-inch hotel pan and and run it through a couple of cycles? Oh, you can do that, and that'll get rid of a lot of the air too. But I I have a a strong feeling. I would say I am more than fifty percent positive that if you just stick the tubes with the mixture in the vac bag and su and make sure it's packed in good, and you suck a full vacuum on it, that it will all boil out, but it'll go back in the tube. I'd give you a well, maybe I'll give you 50% odds on that working for you.
+
+[10:39] And if not, I would just put the mixture in the hotel pan, like you say, blast it a couple times in the vacuum to get the air out, then do a dense pack into the tube, and then wrap her in plastic and uh put and do it in the either uh either low temp or do it in the um uh you could do it in an oven if you're uh having good luck in an oven. So you think even though it's uh open at both ends. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. As long as there's as long as there's enough I mean it tr try I mean like the the the issue is is is it is it gonna move fast enough to get back into the tube?
+
+[11:11] That's the real real question. But I mean you can try it with water, you'll see if you if you put just enough water to exactly fill that tube and just throw it into the bag with the tube and vacuum it, all of the water will end up in the tube, all of it. But it's uh you know, but uh it's a question when it's so thick whether or not it's gonna move well enough. But I like I say, that's why I'm giving you like fifty I'm not giving you a hundred percent odds, I'm giving you like fifty percent. Yeah.
+
+[11:35] I understand. And what do you suggest uh the one seventy nine Fahrenheit or something like that? Oh, uh cheesecakes, I don't know. I usually do things like that. I can't do the Fahrenheit conversions.
+
+[11:47] I usually do them up in like the I usually do them in like the low eighties, somewhere in there, like the low eighties in Celsius, probably. Uh somewhere up there. Uh yeah. I mean, usually I think I'd have to go back and look at my numbers, been a long time. But anyway, tell us tell us how it works.
+
+[12:01] Sure just say uh a Twitter or whatnot and tell tell me how it works. All right, thanks, Dave. All right, thank you. You too. Um by the way, on Twitter, you know what?
+
+[12:10] If you ever want to insult uh Nastasha, she sees all of my emails, but not my Twitter. Just saying. That's true. Yeah. Just kidding.
+
+[12:19] Patrick Martin's also not on Twitter. I think you guys are the only two. He's not on Twitter? No. Or Facebook or anything.
+
+[12:27] Wow. He's you know, I don't know. Two or two exclusive. Wow. Wow.
+
+[12:32] All righty. Okay. Will Freeman writes in at Rebelcat at Heritage Radio and Dave Arnold. Could you please discuss sparkling water served with espresso? Theory and practice.
+
+[12:40] Word to Nastasha, Jack, and the crew. Again, that's a an and the rest reference from the first Gilligan's Island. Uh remember that? Anyway, I won't go into it again. So uh carbonated water with seltzer.
+
+[12:50] Uh I enjoy it. You don't you know sorry, carbonated water with uh with espresso. I I enjoy it. You don't drink espresso, right, Sas. Any of you guys over there espresso?
+
+[12:59] I've been to it. Yeah, you like the carbonated? I actually have never had the carbonated, but I like espresso. Okay, so when you get it when you order an espresso in a lot of nicer joints, uh they will give you uh a glas a water back, right? A glass of water uh with it, and then a lot of the uh places that I like, like in San Francisco, for instance, like Blue Bottle and other places, they'll give you a carbonated water back.
+
+[13:21] And uh it seems kind of strange. At first you wouldn't think that carbonated water would necessarily go well with coffee. I mean, there's very few carbonated coffee drinks. Manhattan uh special soda being the one obvious um you know that that that's the only really carbonated coffee thing I can think of. So it's not necessarily uh, and by the way, Manhattan doesn't refer to our Manhattan Nastash, it refers to Manhattan Avenue here in Brooklyn.
+
+[13:42] So it's like you know, it's actually a Brooklyn product, so you can't drink it. Uh yeah, and we I we saw the factory. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so uh I I don't know. I mean, like I I I like it, and I put it this way.
+
+[13:54] What is it there for? Espresso's gone in like 13 seconds, especially like a modern American espresso. You're drinking it in like 13 seconds because of the incredibly short shots that they're pulling these days. It used to be that a double was, you know, like an ounce and three quarters or so, or an ounce and a half, and now like a double is you know, almost not even coating the bottom of your cup at some of these places. I think it's gone a little far uh in in that respect in in some ways, but you have a strong tasting thing and you need something to clear your mouth out at the end.
+
+[14:24] So in general, what I do is I drink the espresso uh and then uh I pound the water, and regular water doesn't clean your mouth out or make you feel refreshed the way sparkling water does. I mean, straight up, right? So I don't think I don't know if there's any theory other than I'm sure the people who started doing it were offering a sparkling mineral water as a as a thing, and that just happened to be the water of their of their of their preference. But uh I didn't find anything uh on the kind of history of it. All I'm saying is I enjoy it.
+
+[14:54] So I'm assuming that you enjoy it as well at Rebelcat. Anyway, uh Ben writes it. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hello. Howdy.
+
+[15:04] Hi, hi. I'm uh I'm Steven Benson. I'm a big fan of your show. Oh, thank you. Uh I had a quick question about juicers.
+
+[15:11] Okay, good. What's the question? I I need a a juicer that can also juice greens effectively and extract as much as possible out of the green. Uh and I I was looking for one in a in a reasonable price range. Uh and if if that's if that's not possible, then uh is there any way to modify a cheaper juicer to be able to do that?
+
+[15:29] When you say greens, you mean like kale? Yes. Okay. Uh all right, okay, good. So i i what do you have now?
+
+[15:39] Oh, I I don't have one yet. I'm looking I'm in the market. Okay. So the now there's all sorts of juicers that I myself don't uh don't own and haven't even uh tested. My main experience it with juice style juicers are with the smaller uh set the smaller like weird baskets and trifugal guys, and I've never had much uh luck with them.
+
+[16:01] I don't really never been so happy with them. The majority of my experience is with a champion juicer. Champion juicer is a is a masticating juicer, and so you know it's what it does is it's got a a a long nose and it's got little teeth on that long nose, and you shove stuff down and it just grinds it up with the and then the juice uh spits out of the bottom through a mesh screen and then the chaff comes out the front, right? And it the champion can juice just about anything. Uh with the exception it can't do sugar cane.
+
+[16:34] Uh I don't re I don't think it's very good at wheat grass, right? Uh but it does apples, it'll do kale, it'll do all those things, ginger, anything, carrots, uh loves carrots, it loves to do carrots. Now uh the the one gripe people have with the champ and the champion is relatively reasonably priced, right? It's like I think we paid what, like two hundred for it or something like that. And it's uh and it's a monster workhorse, right?
+
+[16:58] You c you can beat the heck out of it all day long and and nothing it's not gonna die. I have I think I said on the show, if not, I've said elsewhere that I ha I had one once that I ran so long and so hard juicing apples that uh the surface of the case was boiling water and the uh and I I actually I actually melted the electronics on the inside of it, the uh safety circuit, but it's still juiced. I mean that's kind of how sturdy these suckers are. Oh wow. But the one gripe that people have about the champion is that it can heat up your products.
+
+[17:32] Okay. And so with greens and certain other things, uh that can be uh a problem. By the way, when you're juicing something, if you juice something that has a tendency to turn brown after it's been uh cut up, what you want to do is put ascorbic acid, vitamin C actually into the pan that you're juicing into, and that's gonna uh that's gonna really um retard the browning that happens, for instance, apples or anything else. But the kale stuff is no problem. But if you need something that's more gentle, right, and for things like greens, you can get uh there there's a juicer called the green star juicer that's be that's it's it runs with two gears, and the two gears crush the product as it's going through, and that produces the juice, and that juice is at a much lower temperature, and so people like it.
+
+[18:15] It's a little more expensive than a champion. I don't have any personal experience with it, but Sam Mason, uh, you know, when he was opening Taylor had a a champion and a juice uh green star, and he said he really liked the green star, but he said the yield was a lot lower. So I don't know how important the yield is, because that's another thing to look at whenever you're looking at a juicer is how much you're leaving behind. Okay, I'm a I'm a chemist. The yield is actually pretty important to me.
+
+[18:37] Right, okay. Um and uh I was also I was also curious, so since I'm gonna be making savory juices sometimes as well, instead of using ascorbic, can I use some type of vinegar or citric acid or something like that instead to make sure the browning doesn't occur? Okay, well, it depends. So so if you're screwed to retard browning, right? So you're you're a chemist, so like, but we'll for everyone we'll s one, you lower the the browning is caused by uh an end enzymes that are present in the juice, right?
+
+[19:05] Uh I believe they're polyphenol oxidases that are that are uh agglomerating um things together into things that turn brown that look brown and then anyway, that make things take oxidized. So and other oxidation reactions are happening. In fact, I think the browning is only the only one of the things that's going on for the oxidation reaction. So, but they're mainly enzymatically caused, which means you can retard a lot of that browning by simply lowering the pH to the point where those enzymes are no longer active, right? That's one mode.
+
+[19:33] Or two, add something that is actively an antioxidant like ascorbic acid, right? So the other acids are only going to act insofar as they're going to lower the pH, whereas they're not as effective as actual antioxidants as you would have in something like ascorbic acid. Now, if you didn't want the ascorbic acid taste, right? But although ascorbic acid is very light on taste, you could move to something like uh a sodium metabisulfite, uh, or something like that as an antioxidant. And a lot of people use that, but the problem is that if you overdose on uh on one of the sulfite things, you start to taste that vaguely sulfurous note, but you won't taste it in smaller quantities.
+
+[20:14] Okay. All right, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Man, thank you. Let us know how it goes.
+
+[20:19] Alrighty. Uh wait, stuff. Should we go to our first commercial break? We're going to our first commercial break. Cooking issues.
+
+[20:25] We'll be right back. A true mom and pop operation since two thousand six, the Brooklyn Kitchen provides the tools that shape our food culture. They stock a curated variety of pots, pans, knives, small appliances, and other kitchen essentials. Their grocery department works closely with local farms and food artisans to bring you the tastiest fresh produce, dairy, and pantry items. Their teaching kitchens allow them to offer a wide breadth of cooking classes, from knife skills to pick butchering, from cooking for couples to pickling and canning, from home brewing to pie making.
+
+[22:26] Something new is always happening at the Brooklyn Kitchen. Visit them at one hundred frost street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklyn Kitchen.com. You guys put some scary music to that. Yeah, right. I feel like I'm gonna get butchered.
+
+[22:40] That's the point. It's not a scary place. Yeah, I was asking Nastasia before the show if she'd ever been to Brooklyn Kitchen, but then I forgot she's never really been to Brooklyn outside of Roberta's, so Oh, yeah, no, she makes a beeline directly for the subway when she gets out of here, like slapping the hipsters off her like mosquitoes as she's running. Tell the joke, dude. Which one?
+
+[22:58] Your joke, it's your joke. You tell it. Yeah, you'll say it better. No, you see it's Nastasia, you how much does a hipster weigh? How much?
+
+[23:07] An Instagram. Oh. Wow. Thank goodness she's measuring in grains. There we go.
+
+[23:19] All right. Clef's writes in at cooking issues. What starch have you found to be the least cloudy when using as a thickener for hot sauces? Uh, or do you have any non-starch ideas? Okay, well, it's an interesting question.
+
+[23:31] Uh, you want something that's hot soluble, uh, so you know, heat it up and uh to coat the back of a spoon with thick uh coat the coat the back of the spoon, as they say, a napel, as they say in the trade. Uh or maybe a little bit thicker. So uh if you're interested in starch clarity and the theory behind starch clarity, you can look up a 1989 article called Starch Paste Clarity by S.A.S. Craig. It's available on the internet uh and you can look it up.
+
+[23:53] But in general, if you're looking for uh a regular starch, you know, not uh modified, if you want a modified uh uh not even a modified, but a very highly tuned starch. You can go to National Starch Corporation and they have any number of starches that are already that are they made specifically for things like clarity. In fact, they have gel, they have starches, they have the word clarity and purity in their name that are intended to be very highly clear. But if you're looking to get uh kind of a more normal, just like a grocery store situation with starch, uh the way the reason starches um are c when when starch becomes clear typically means that the starch is swelling rapidly and the starch granules break gr uh rapidly and the starch goes completely into solution rapidly, and that makes for maximum clarity, right? So the starches that have that are ones like potato starch or uh tapioca starch, root-based uh uh and tuber-based starches.
+
+[24:44] These starches tend to swell extremely rapidly. The granules rupture rapidly, at which point it becomes very clear. Uh so you know, those those are going to have higher clarity, things like potato starch. Um, also starch that's higher, like other types of starch, like waxy cornstarch, not cornstarch, but waxy cornstarch, which is high in a millipectin, uh, tends to be uh more clear because a millipectin uh tends to be uh more clear and it's easier to paste out and also retrograde less. Now, any starch you have is gonna have the issue that when it cools down, it's gonna thicken significantly.
+
+[25:22] I think less so probably for potato starch, but I haven't I didn't have a chance to uh look it up. If you want to move just to a hydrocolloid for thickening with clarity, then obviously you can add a little bit of xanthan at the end of your cooking procedure, and it will stay uh it will add its thickening capability whether it's hot or it's cold. The problem with xanthan is if you add too much xanthan, uh your product's gonna get snotty. It looks really like snot and very jiggly. So you want to add low percent energies.
+
+[25:48] You never want to add really more than about uh to a sauce more than about a quarter of a percent up to about a third of a percent. If you go over that, uh you're gonna start noticing some xanthan characteristics to it. You can go up to half a percent sometimes, but I wouldn't. You know what I mean? And you know, we hate the xanthany look and things, right?
+
+[26:04] That kind of jiggly, that jiggly look. Uh in a sauce, it's gonna be eaten uh as a lot of sauce. In certain applications, it's okay to have that texture because you're not having a large quantity of it there where you can see the motion on the surface. It's mainly the motion on the surface. I mean, there's some snotty texture to the actual mouthfeel, but mostly it's the way it looks that is so horrible, right?
+
+[26:25] Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you might want to move to something like not a regular locust bean gum, but a uh, you know, a purified locust bean gum. They're hot soluble, they need to be heated up, but they can be very uh good. Clear locust bean gum.
+
+[26:40] And you can buy that from, I'm sure Monarch's Pantry carries it, or if not, you know, it's CP Celco makes some. A bunch of people make clear locust bean gums, but they're uh highly refined, they're good thickeners. Also, purified guar is uh very clear, and so you can get a good purified guar gum. Guar is cold or hot, so you can add it and then uh you know use it as you go, uh, and maybe those will be useful for you. We gotta make sure that you don't get just regular cruddy guar because regular cordi guar tastes bad and regular coretti guar also is not clear because it hasn't been purified to have only the hydrocaloid, the active uh polysaccharides in it.
+
+[27:18] Uh I believe what are they? Glucomanids, whatever. I can't remember. But anyway, so you uh get a hold of those. Of course, we all know the price of guar has gone up due to fracking.
+
+[27:26] Thanks, fracking. Thanks a lot. Thanks, you know. You know, I I've I I heard there's an environmental problem with it too. I haven't heard I haven't heard that.
+
+[27:36] Anyway. Then again, I only listen to cooking issues. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Uh so anyway, so uh take a look at that.
+
+[27:41] Hopefully uh that will uh work out for you. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh we have a question in from Zoe at 69 Colebrook Row, our friend Tony Caneliara's place, and the drink factory, and they they hope we're doing well, are we?
+
+[27:54] Yeah. Yeah? Good. Uh we're looking to do some work with calcium oxide, and I'm wondering if you had any advice. Also, this may sound a bit strange, but knowing it beg it can be quite an aggressive chemical, is there a food-safe version of it, or is it a case of just being careful?
+
+[28:07] Uh, as always, any information is greatly appreciated. Um, okay. Calcium oxide, I've not heard so calcium oxide is C-A-O, right? Quick lime. Uh, and the main use of calcium oxide that I know of in food is actually to make self-heating cans.
+
+[28:27] Because you add any time uh calcium oxide is added to water, it's going to have uh a very, very strong reaction where it absorbs the water and turns into calcium hydroxide. Uh and that reaction liberates a boatload of heat. So if you go to the Wikipedia, uh this is what they quoted, so you know I can't verify it because it's Wikipedia. You know, I can you know Nastasha could go in there and enter that, you know, whatever she wants, right? In fact, she's doing it right now.
+
+[28:55] Uh uh I think that's actually what she's doing all the time. When she's doing this, she's actually just loading in like updating Wikipedia like really like random facts. She's like uh, you know, she's like Elliot Gould. Elliot Gould's Wikipedia? You have written on Elliot Gould's Wikipedia page?
+
+[29:11] Awesome. Awesome. I love myself. Elliot Gould. We were talking about him like over Christmas.
+
+[29:17] Oh man, I love my man. I love myself some Elliot Gould. What happened to Elliot Gould? I don't know. I love smell myself smelly Gould.
+
+[29:23] Anyways, uh, so you know, don't trust anything on Elliot Gould's Wikipedia page from now on, because you know Nastashia just put her fingers in there and like all of a sudden, you know, Elliot Gould's gonna be friends with Elton John, all sorts of terrible things are gonna happen. Anyway, uh according to them, one liter of water will combine with uh 3.1 kilograms of uh calcium oxide to uh give uh calcium hydroxide and 3.4 megajoules of energy. To put that into perspective, that is an entire kilowatt hour, or the same amount of energy it takes to run a thousand watt thing for an hour, or in calories, 846,000 calories, and it can deliver it at a fairly high heat. So that's a very high heat interaction. So I don't know of any use for calcium oxide itself in food, but calcium hydroxide uh is extremely uh interesting.
+
+[30:14] So calcium hydroxide, which you can get um as form of pickling lime, uh you can get it in uh Mexican places as uh as uh cal, which is you know what was used for nixtimalization. Uh it's also available membrane just erased, but it's also available on a couple other names. But you know, that stuff's great, and it's uh oh uh Thai red lime paste and Thai lime paste, you can get it. It has uh you know it's calcium hydroxide base. And it that's really interesting.
+
+[30:41] It has a faint cementy taste on its own, it's not very soluble, but it it's also used uh to do things um uh like nystamalization, which uh it changes the taste of things, and anything that requires something that's either as basic or that has calcium is one of the reactions. So we uh we use it a lot. It's also used in uh sugar production uh because they uh for a number of reasons, and this is interesting. This is I did not know. I knew that they have to keep sugar on the relatively basic side when they're processing it to prevent it from inverting, right?
+
+[31:09] Because it if if if sugar is even a little bit acidic, if sucrose, table sugar is even a little bit acidic as it's being processed, it will invert into uh glucose and fructose separately, which is a problem for sugar manufacturers because then it won't crystallize out and they don't sell fructose and glucose, they sell sucrose, they sell table sugar. So everything is kept uh on the neutral or slightly basic side. But when you're doing when they're doing beet sugar, they go through a process, and I learned this this morning of not carbonation, one of my favorite things on the earth, but carbon nutation. And what they do there is they put uh they put calcium hydroxide into the mix with uh into the into the juice and then they shoot uh CO2 carbon dioxide into that and what happens is the carbon dioxide reacts with the uh calcium hydroxide to form calcium carbonate and calcium carbonate isn't soluble so it what it does is it forms particles of calcium carbonate and as it forms those particles it traps other things in it and so it can be used as a clarifying aid so anyone out there I wonder whether there's a way to do an inexpensive uh you know centrifuge free uh clarif quick fairly quick clarification using calcium hydroxide maybe interesting someone check it out someone tells me what's going on anyway uh so uh there you have it right yeah okay uh milk cult wrote in can you guys cover real buttermilk the byproduct of butter production and acidified buttermilk and impacts on hydrocolloids well um okay uh so here's the thing so when I use we whenever you go buy buttermilk in a store you're buying what's called cultured buttermilk and it's not really buttermilk it's just a low-fat milk that they treat with a culture that's I guess you know similar to what would be uh in a culture in real cultured cream right now uh so what you're getting there is the actual milk the casein is there uh you know everything is there in the normal proportions as would be for low-fat milk only it's been cultured with uh bacteria so it's tart it's acidic uh and it's thicker right uh in buttermilk, what you do is you take cream and you make butter with it, and the stuff that's left over is buttermilk. That's what real buttermilk is.
+
+[33:25] And what it's mainly composed of is the whey proteins. The because you know the casein is what's glu the the the milk solids go with the oil when you're making butter, but you you know you have some you have casein, some casein, I guess the casein comes out too. But some of it's trapped as milk solids in the thing. But may all the whey proteins are basically in in there. Uh I guess some casein, some fat, uh, some little bit of fat that's left over, uh, and a lot of like great uh uh emulsifiers and and lactose and water.
+
+[33:56] Um if you use sweet cream to make it, uh, in other words, just like right from as the way you buy it from the grocery store, then uh that cream it will not be tart, it will not be acidic. So most of the recipes that you're using buttermilk for in uh you know pancakes and whatnot, you what you're really using them for is the acidity. You're counting on the acidity from them. And that's why you add baking soda to those recipes, because the baking soda is interacting with the acidity in the buttermilk to leaven your products, like let's say pancakes. Uh you know, they also sent tend to make it more tender crumb, things like biscuits, not that Nastasha would know because she hates biscuits.
+
+[34:30] Uh very similarly, sourdough starter is mainly used in pancakes, not for its leavening capability, and that's why you can use an old nasty sourdough starter for pancakes. You're using a sourdough starter there for its acidity to re- and that's why a lot of those buttermilk pan uh sorry, sourdough pancakes will have soda in them, baking soda in them, because they're actually doing an acid-base reaction and not uh leavening uh in a traditional way, or they're augmenting the traditional leavening with an acid-base reaction. However, when I make buttermilk, I typically take my cream. I will buy buttermilk, and you have to make sure that the buttermilk that you're using is uh has active cultures. And so the one I get from Whole Foods is usually very active.
+
+[35:11] Uh the I've had bad luck sometimes with the one I get at my local supermarket, uh, of the a culture not being active enough. And then you take your cream, and to like your quart of cream, you can add uh, you know, like a half a cup or so of buttermilk, and then you I let it sit out in the kitchen overnight, and then my cream is cultured, and then I get real buttermilk from, and that's the way you would make cultured butter. You let it sit however long you want for the culture to develop for the cream to ripen, and then you make uh your butter with it. That buttermilk is acidic, and that buttermilk, so that buttermilk has the like the best of all the world. It has like the interesting, awesome taste of buttermilk, it has the emulsifying properties uh of you know that are in a uh in traditional old school buttermilk, and it also has uh which I guess mainly come from probably the whey proteins, I'm not sure.
+
+[35:59] And it also has uh the acidity. So, what do you think? Good. Good. Okay.
+
+[36:05] Um I guess it's time for our second commercial break already. Sure. Yeah, second commercial break, cooking issues. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member.
+
+[36:43] Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Anna from Hungary wrote in. Thank you for covering my questions last week and clearing up my dulce de leche recipes and processes.
+
+[37:24] I made Dulce de Leche without the water this past weekend and stirred almost constantly, and it did work. Previously, I thought the water was there to prevent the milk or sugar from burning while they interact, and the water is just slowing the process. I read more on the MyRad reaction. I learned a lot. Anyways, I want to say thank you for giving me a heads up, and now we're ready for flavors and perfecting the recipe.
+
+[37:41] Well, thanks. I'd love to hear feedback that something actually worked, right? Alright. Feels good. Uh okay.
+
+[37:47] Uh in from Nick in Seoul, Korea. Uh, and he's writing to you, Nostash, because he doesn't really care what I say. Sorry we missed you this week. Uh, I'm Nick from Seoul Korea. I called about cold smoking bacon.
+
+[37:57] I just want to follow up my inquiry. Dave says I'm not going to get the desired effect, uh, which by the way is to reduce the emissions and deposit of harmful substances while preserving the good smoky flavor of bacon. Because the good smoky aroma that we love is released uh at the combustion temperatures along with the various possible carcinogens and other nasty stuff. Well, that is unless I make made or major modifications to my setup. What if you go low and slow?
+
+[38:19] Wood's essential oils and aroma compounds uh are uh also released at lower temperatures, say 200 to 300 Celsius, no? Wouldn't keeping it under the combustion temperature of two or three hundred Celsius for longer duration, more or less produce the desired effect. And also, do you have any experience smoking with herbs, grains, flowers, and polls, or any mixture of them? Are there any things I should be made aware of before giving it a whirl? Looking forward to hearing from you.
+
+[38:41] Best regards, Nick. Okay, so we have to separate what's going on here. Wood's essential oils and aromas do go out at lower temperatures. But you've got to remember these are compounds that are already in the wood themselves. So things like the aroma of cedar or the aroma of sandalwood or any of those aromas or pine.
+
+[39:01] Those those things are in the wood uh and relatively easy to volatilize. In fact, they're there, you can smell them, right? So they're clearly they're fairly easy to volatilize. The other things in them, uh, like you know, the phenolic uh things, like uh the one that you always think of as being associated with smoky flavor is guyacal. Uh and uh that is not in the wood to begin with.
+
+[39:27] It needs to be produced, and it's produced uh by the pyrolysis of lignin at high temperatures. Now, is there a way maybe to uh produce it really long in snow? I don't know. I haven't wasn't able to find anything in the literature to to make to figure out like what those flavors uh to produce those flavors at a lower temperature. In addition, remember that the temperature at which the uh smoke is produced, even in that in the higher temperature range, which is where we're talking about, uh the actual flavors that you're produced, the actual reactions that take place are dependent on that temperature.
+
+[40:04] So the flavor of a particular smoke is gonna depend on the temperature at which it's created as well. So it's not like even all high temperatures are created equal, but I don't know of a way that you can get traditional smoke flavors at lower temperature. Now, like I say, getting the volatiles out of it and making those kind of flavors, I think it would be a very uh, you know, be easy to do at those lower temperatures, but not the traditional smoky flavor. If someone tell someone call back and or write me and tell me of a way to do it, uh, but I I don't know of any way. Okay.
+
+[40:29] Uh hello cooking issues team from Matthew. Uh I hope everything is good with you guys in 2013. I decided to add some Xanthan gum and soy lecithin to my vinaigrette recipe to help it stay emulsified. Uh now, Xanthan is of course uh the you know one of the magic hydrocolloids that's uh comes from uh bacteria, and it's awesome because you can use it in very small quantities, so it doesn't mask flavor. It can go into almost any recipe, whether it's acidic or not acidic.
+
+[40:58] It can go, it can be heated, it can be cold, uh, it it is it suspends things like pepper because it has what's called a yield point, so it forms a uh a weak gel unless it's being uh agitated. So it's amazing stuff. Uh problem before we said it used too much of it and things get snotty, but it's really kind of uh amazing, amazing stuff. Uh soy lecithin, of course, is lecithin, which is a phospholipid that's derived from uh soybean uh uh processing. Um lecithin is in a lot of recipes anytime we use egg yolk as an emulsifier, we're also using lecithin, but remember lecithin from an egg yolk is not the same thing as lessithin from soy.
+
+[41:35] Very related though. Anyway, uh that was just a the before we get to the full thing, so you know. Okay. The first recipe I used for a reference was here on HDTP, modernistcooking made easy.com. Uh and they made a uh maple vinaigrette recipe.
+
+[41:51] It called for 0.6 0.6% lecithin and 0.2% xanthan. I made a vinaigrette that was about 840 grams, uh, and then added five grams of lecithin and one point seven grams of xanthan and spun the whole thing in a vita prep. Vitaprep's always a good call, by the way. Love the vitaprep. Uh alas, it broke almost immediately and shortly after, completely separated.
+
+[42:12] After this, I consulted uh Martin Larish's Chymosis Texturous Hydrocolloid Cookbook, and its recipe called for 0.2% lecithin and 0.1 to 0.4% Xanthan. Again, I started with 840 grams of vinaigrette and then added 1.7 grams of lecithin and 0.85 grams of xanthan. Also a complete failure. I'm not really sure where I went wrong. Maybe my inferior mass skills contributed.
+
+[42:38] In both cases, I completely ignored the recipes and used my own vinaigrette recipe and just added the hydrocolloids in the proportion specified. Could this be the issue? I assume that with the additives and the ratios uh the with the additives, the ratios of the other components weren't as important. Any other suggestions or ideas on using lesson, lecithin, xanthan, or other stuff to keep dressings nicely emulsified? Thanks.
+
+[42:58] Okay. We tend to use um uh when I'm thickening salad dressings, I typically use something called uh a ticoloid uh you know 310 or or or 210 or 201 or 301. I think they're all very similar. They're mixtures of gum arabic and xanthan because I have a lot of them around because I use them in in drinks. But so they're they're using a gum arabic slash xanthan system to thicken and stabilize, and those things last forever, forever, and both of them are very good at different uh at different acid levels.
+
+[43:27] So here's a way I there's a couple of things that can be going wrong there. First of all, I looked at the recipes, and both recipes uh state their percentages in a way that is normal for cooks to state them, but not really um accurate. Uh hydrocolloids, the th the the thickening power of a hydrocolloid is based strictly on uh how much it's interacting with the water in a system. So I looked at the maple vinaigrette uh recipe. It was 45 grams of balsamic vinegar, 15 grams of lemon juice, and 20 grams of maple syrup, and 90 grams of olive oil.
+
+[43:59] So when they were doing the recipe calculations for that, they added all of those numbers up to get the percentages. However, uh the xanthan gum isn't interacting with the 90 grams of oil, so it shouldn't factor into your percentages, right? It's just not it shouldn't. Uh also the uh balsamic vinegar is mostly water, so that's okay. The lemon juice is mostly water, so that's okay.
+
+[44:21] And the 20 grams of maple syrup, though, is only one-third water, so that's like seven grams. So if you look at it, uh this recipe uh they says that one gram of lecithin is 0.6%. It's actually using 1.4% of lecithin on a water basis. Now, lecithin you can't really count as a water basis alone because uh it's interacting with the oil because it's an emulsifier. So, like there, the the water, the total uh amount and the water oil part is is important.
+
+[44:48] I don't really know how to work it out from an accurate standpoint, but anyway. But back on the xanthan gum, uh he says he's using 0.2% xanthan gum, but on a water base, he's really using 0.45% xanthan gum. Okay. So one one problem is is that when you're looking at it, you should look at the amount of water in your recipe for your xanthan, and in fact, he's adding 0.45. I went and analyzed uh Martin Larsch's recipe, and he's using um I have it here somewhere.
+
+[45:17] Um yeah, he's using uh actually m much more Xanthan uh than he would because he's not counting the oil on the xanthan either. So uh you could up your xanthan or make sure your percentages are in line with uh what they want for the liquid. Another problem you might be having is maybe your lecithin's no good, and your lecithin is are you using powdered lecithin or are you using the one that's in granules? The granules might not be dissolving properly. The good way to figure out whether it's the lecithin that's the problem is you can figure on a general basis that egg yolks are roughly 10% lecithin.
+
+[45:49] So if your recipe works just by adding 10 times uh the amount of egg yolk as you added uh lecithin, right? So in your case, let's say you were using the one gram of lecithin. If you were adding 10 grams of egg yolks, it should have roughly that same amount of lecithin, but it's not going to be a problem hydrating. So that one, if you added the egg yolk and it worked, then bang, it's probably your lecithin's not going in there properly. Could be you weren't hydrating the xanthan properly.
+
+[46:16] Remember, you're doing in a very acidic environment here uh if you're using some of these recipes. So just take a look at it. Um another uh so I would look at your hydration, even though you're using a vital prep and make sure everything's getting hydrated. Um I don't know about lecithin's um performance in extremely acidic environments. I don't know how acidic your environment is, but look at the actual water content of what's going on.
+
+[46:36] Test it with egg yolk to see whether that's the problem. Uh up the xanthan slightly uh because uh the other way the percentages are being calculated is uh is a little bit uh wonky, or switch to something like Ticaloid 310, which I know works in these situations because I've done it all the time. No, one more thing is that you might want to whisk the lecithin into the into the oil if you can. And if you have a water uh that's in there that isn't very acidic, if you're using something that's not very acidic, I would put the hydrocolloids as much into a non-acidic thing as possible before you start, they'll hydrate faster and easier. Uh yeah?
+
+[47:09] What do you think? Good. Good? All right. Uh okay, let me see, find another good question.
+
+[47:16] Uh oh, we had a question in from Ben. Uh actually, we probably only have time for like one or two more questions anyway, right? Yeah. So uh we have a question in from Ben uh from San Francisco. He says, Hello, Dave, Hammer, and Jack.
+
+[47:32] And I'm gonna put Joe in there. Yeah, really. Come on. I know he's shout out to Joe when you submit questions. No, seriously.
+
+[47:39] Seriously, people. Where's the love? I know it. I know it. You know what?
+
+[47:43] Although I'm sure you get the love as the front man in the band, right? So like all I want on Valentine's Day is to be recognized. Next week is our Valentine's show. Right, but you know 12th. That's not two weeks from now.
+
+[47:56] Yeah, but uh the the Valentine's Day is on the 14th, right? Yeah. Yeah. So before. Yeah, but like but Ben wants like advice now.
+
+[48:03] He's got a plan in advance. He's not gonna make it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I know.
+
+[48:08] Just let you know. So yeah, next week we'll, you know, we'll have the Valentine's Day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I thought you never answered this last week. No, I didn't get to it because we had callers. You would know if you whatever.
+
+[48:19] Whatever. I'm not even gonna get into it. I'm not even gonna get into it. Don't make me. Oh, and everyone else who's heard is is here?
+
+[48:28] Oh, yeah, okay. So Ben writes in from San Francisco. Uh big fan of the show and the blog, so much so that I finished the entire cooking issues backlog while I'm winter vacation with my girlfriend on Jolly. And I remember uh she wrote in and said that, and we apologize to her on air for that, for her having to listen to it. Uh perhaps you recall her email.
+
+[48:46] Uh I do feel guilty about making her listen to it, but it was worth it. Uh to make up for being such a horrible guy, I want to cook her uh a unique and outstanding Valentine's dinner. Alright, I like this kind of question, right? Uh we can go off on this one. I have a great pressure cooker, the Fistler brand, which I haven't used that one actually yet.
+
+[49:02] Well, it wasn't, I I don't have it. Uh, but I hear it's okay. I hear it's good. Uh, an emer uh you like it a lot, so maybe it's great. I have no idea.
+
+[49:08] I haven't used it. Uh an immersion circulator, which is a uh he has a crazy old poly science uh 7312. We have that. That's the one that's on our circulator chiller that we used uh in the that we use with the roto vap or we're using with the rotor vap. A Vitamix, good call.
+
+[49:22] Strong call on the Vitamix. I love it when someone has a Vitamix at home because that just makes everything easier. Uh and most regular equipment. Uh, what would you make for your wife on Valentine's Day if you really owed her this time? Wow, it's mostly something else other than just the cooking issues.
+
+[49:34] I mean, I hope I'm not that much punishment. I am kind of a little bit. Talk to my talk to my family. Uh, if you really owed her this time something epic or unusual that a reasonably sophisticated amateur cook could make. Uh, thanks for everything.
+
+[49:47] Your future Kickstarter supporter, uh, Ben. Okay. Uh, this is an excellent question, but okay, so I have a I have some good perspective. I've been doing uh Valentine's uh day uh, you know, meals for my wife for a long time. Uh and I don't tend to go out on Valentine's Day.
+
+[50:05] Uh I always, always, especially before I was doing this uh professionally, uh, I was um I was cooking her meals, right? Uh here's the here's the issue, and here's what you have to look out for. When you're cooking a meal uh at home, there for Valentine's Day, you're cooking it for just the two of you, I hope. Right? And so uh the main problem is to organize your meal such that you actually get to sit down with her during the meal because it's it's gonna be irritating for her if you're not sitting down uh at the meal with her, right?
+
+[50:41] So that that used to be one of my main problems is I would have all this prep work done, but then there'd be a long lag in between the dishes as they as they rolled out. And also, you know, I would be standing up doing a lot of prep. So the dinners would go very long. This is why I would suggest to you that you get uh that you do a lot of the stuff in the circulator and do as much post finishing as possible. Uh you know, I would like you to write and tell me kind of like what she likes to eat, and then I could give you some more recommendations for for right beforehand.
+
+[51:14] But also, I used to like to do like probably like four or five courses on the Valentine's Day, get your desserts done beforehand, right? Uh and you know, this it's unfortunately it's cold out, so you could do some sort of like hot cold. I used to do a lot of things that lit on fire because mean that's what I do. I light stuff on fire. But try to go, I mean, I used I used to go nuts.
+
+[51:34] I would do I would always do a fish, a poultry, a meat, a dessert, and an appetizer, some four court uh and finish with cheese. Definitely get a couple of bottles of wine and vacuvan. Don't force yourself to drink only one wine throughout the entire thing and start out with champagne, get a clamshell thing to open it. But I would definitely do uh I would I would definitely do most of my work in the circulator if at all possible so that you can sit with her during uh the time that you're eating and light something on fire at the end. Does that make sense?
+
+[52:03] What do you think, S. What do you like to have for the you don't care about Valentine's? I don't care. What do you well what what would what would you like? I really don't care.
+
+[52:11] She's like, make it hardy pasta. Just make it a hearty pasta. Haughty. Haughty pasta. Oh, here's one for you.
+
+[52:18] Try uh so you know, if you like quail, and I like quail, the pr the problem is also when you're doing this, another problem you're doing, if you don't do lots of plated dishes all the time because you're cooking at home, and why would you do that? The the problem is is that you plan a me, and I've done this several times, is you plan a long meal for the Valentine's Day, and then you don't uh you you you make her so full that she can't finish the last couple of things. And in fact, the main issue with all of the small plates uh situations that you have in restaurants is it's extremely difficult to get the portion sizes right when you're doing multiple courses. Because a little bit too little and you're hungry at the end. Now you can just solve that by making some sort of mega filling dessert, right?
+
+[53:02] Or a little bit too much and they can't finish the stuff as it goes through. Then you're gonna get depressed because you've been working all this time and she's gonna feel bad that she's not finishing what you're making. Either that or she's gonna stuff herself, which would then make you know the both of you, you know, feel like you're stuffed. You don't like feeling stuffed at the end of it when you're w on a on a occasion like that, right, Stuzz? No, there's no loving for later, right?
+
+[53:23] I I I was hoping you would say that so I would not have to. Thank you. Appreciate that. Finally, Nastasha comes through for me in a pinch. Bang!
+
+[53:30] Hey, guess what, cooking issues listener? I'm single. So for Valentine's Day, you know, shoot us a line. I'm the only one here without a date. Really?
+
+[53:39] Yeah, man. Come on, really? Jack has no date. No date. Really?
+
+[53:43] Yep. All right, listen. Uh anyone in the New York area. Whoa. Wow.
+
+[53:50] We don't know that. Wow. I would be happy if we had women listeners. I think we do. Wow.
+
+[53:56] Anyway, back to Ben's problem. Ben. Ben. Well, Jack has a problem of a date. I'm working on okay, we have two separate problems here.
+
+[54:04] I have Ben's problem of what he's gonna make on Jolly for Valentine's Day, and hopefully I'm a uh I'm giving him advice without giving him specific advice. Uh and then we have the problem that Jack needs a date. These are two separate uh interviews. Then we have a third problem that there are no female listeners of the show, apparently. You know, by the way, apparently Booker's new catchphrase.
+
+[54:21] He says apparently every other word is apparently out of his mouth now. But uh uh okay, so these all need to be addressed. But right now, uh I'll say some of the things that um I mean, look, get an extremely, extremely, extremely high quality steak, uh, and then uh do a low temperature steak, do 50 like small piece, right? Cut it, pre-cut it so it's nice, uh, do it at 55, uh, do it like up uh at 55, drop it to 50, then do a finish uh poiv style with like a cassis sauce, uh, and then you can finish it with whatever else you want as a steak course. That's a freaking knockout.
+
+[54:56] It's not gonna take you any time at all. Uh make a good uh beef, uh like a beef tasting sauce beforehand because you're not gonna have a pan foam to make the uh to make the cassis uh sauce for the uh poiv thing, but that's like it's a knockout. Also, uh for the poultry side, if you you might not want to go all low temp because then it's gonna be a little bit too much, but you know, a low temp duck breast sliced with like a side salad, uh where you just finish it in the pan after it's cooked, because you could take it almost from cold in a pan to crisp up the skin 57 degrees on the duck breast uh for about 40 minutes, 45 minutes. Uh make sure you smash the duck down so it's nice and flat on the uh the skin before you put it in the in the bag to cook it in the circulator. Also, a knockout and a good poultry thing to lead into the meats, especially if you keep your portions smaller.
+
+[55:44] Uh I would get the world's best cheese. I like to have cheese uh at the end before dessert. I like to have a cheese course. I just do with a glass of port uh and you can do that, or you can do it beforehand if you really need to. But to me, really good cheese makes a meal.
+
+[56:00] Another, like if you want to go weird on the uh on the on the poultry side, get uh the small quails, the small ones. You can buy them deboned already, or you can inside out bone them. And this is one of my favorite things I used to do was I would low temp, I didn't have actually circulators at the time, so I had to do it old school. I would poach eggs uh like a s like a chump sucker. And then you would uh you would shimmy the egg into the boneless quail, which is really kind of weirdly gross.
+
+[56:27] Wait till you do it, you'll see. And then I mean you don't want to deep fry on the Valentine's Day, but like Flash Cook or Deep Fry the quail, so it's crispy on the outside, but then when you cut into it, the egg yolk is still runny and it and it the quail sauces itself. And that's a really interesting, fun thing. Like a quail with a with a runny egg on the inside that holds a shape, and you cut it and it self-sauces itself. Make sure you serve that on some sort of like thin but like well-made kind of brochetta thing so that you can eat it uh all together.
+
+[56:55] I mean, I've done that a couple times on Valentine's Day, uh, but the steak's always a winner. And I'm trying to think of what what else uh what else I would do. But anyway, take those pieces of advice, send me back uh a tweet, a line, tell me what you're looking for exactly on uh what she likes to eat. Uh, and uh we need a day for Jack, right? We need some women listeners and a day for Jack.
+
+[57:15] Hey, women listeners, prove that you're there and call in and give Jack some love. And then next week on the questions, I want to shout out to Joe, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[57:40] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Amber App, a revolutionary iPod point of sale system that can be used at a restaurant, bar, coffee shop, or food truck. Visit their website at Amberapp.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marlon, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday in Bushwick, Brooklyn at Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network. How you doing? How you guys doing? Good.
+
+[1:13] You're right on time. It's like 12 on the dot. You like that? How about that? Yeah, man.
+
+[1:17] What do you know? What do you know? So listen, big news. Nastasha has joined the social media scene. No, I don't believe it though.
+
+[1:28] Believe it. No way. Yeah. Yeah. So anyone that can hear this, I want you to go out and I want you to follow Nastasha on the Twitter.
+
+[1:38] Yes. Wow. It's hammer bdx. No underscore because that would prevent that's like a barrier between the hammer and you. So there's no underscore.
+
+[1:48] Yeah. Right? Yeah. Do you have has anyone followed you yet? No.
+
+[1:51] Really? Just at hammer? That can't be. And no, at hammer bdx. Oh, BDX.
+
+[1:55] Oh, P DX. Okay. Capital B D X. I don't know if that matters in the. So BDX is what uh we shorthand call Booker and DAX the bar.
+
+[2:07] Right. So that's so BDX is like Booker and DAX. And the the equipment, the equipment company on 54 Eldridge, we call BDX EQ. So anyway, so that's it. That's it, folks.
+
+[2:18] So please follow me. I'll answer you, but I won't provoke. Not only are you on social media, you're asking people to interact with you. Well, if she's gonna do it, she's gonna do it. If you met it all the way, yeah.
+
+[2:28] Have you met her? Yeah. Have you met Nastasha? It's like once she's gonna do it, she's like, she's like, no, no, no, I don't want to do it. No, people who do it, no, that's bad.
+
+[2:35] Well, she's gonna do it, she's gonna do it. But listen, like, I want her to be like the vicious one. Like, I answer nicely, but if you Twitter her, it's gonna be the vicious. So if you friend me or whatever you call it, I'll be vicious. Right.
+
+[2:47] Yeah. Right. So expect it. Except for the fact that I think also you will be able to tweet in radio questions to Nastasha. What's one of the reasons she decided to do it?
+
+[2:56] Was you were getting all them and then yeah. Blah blah blah blah blah. In some other non-cooking, oh, by the way, calling your questions live, too. 7184972128, that's 7184972128. But uh in some non cooking related news, uh well Nastasha was non cooking related news, but uh you will not know this unless you know us personally, but we are kind of cognizes of uh of uh tabloid headlines, and you know, we flatter ourselves that we could someday be good tabloid headline writers, but I saw uh in the subway today.
+
+[3:27] Oh my god, the best it's the best. It's like it's right up there with it's one of the great headlines. You've never told that one. Just sit telling. Which one?
+
+[3:34] The one. That's real. Which one? The one that you love the best. Oh, my my favorite all-time tabloid headline, and like, you know, there should be awards for this because it's like such a genius art, was uh when Lorre right after 9-11 when we first palmed uh Afghanistan, and the headline was Kabulzai, Kabulzai.
+
+[3:51] And you know that there's just some dude or dudette or whatever sitting in a hole somewhere that they throw raw meat at, and they're like, We just bombed Afghanistan cabozai! And they're like, oh my god. You know what I mean? But so like, you know, like at three in the morning or whatever, someone wakes the headline writer and they're like, listen, listen, the Pope's advocating. The Pope's advocating.
+
+[4:10] Says he's too tired to, you know, mentally tired. Too pooped to pope. Boom! I was like, oh my god. You know what?
+
+[4:18] It's like I almost just like quit my job right then and was like, you know what? I need to study at the feet of this person who can come up with a headline that's so genius. Daily news or or post? I don't even know. It's one of those, it was probably in one of the real papers.
+
+[4:35] But it was it was in one of the ones that they hand you at the subway, so I don't know who who does that. Oh, like the Metro, yeah. I was like, you know what? It's like it's like hilarious and like not offensive, but you know that the person meant it is a f oh genius. You love that too pooped to pope.
+
+[4:51] Genius. I've got bad news though. Nastasia, your Twitter account doesn't work. What the what hammer BDS look at it right now? Hammer BDX?
+
+[4:59] Yes, I'm looking at it right now. Why can't we get it? Elliot just wrote in too. He said he can't can't get you. Exactly.
+
+[5:04] Do you have to activate it? You know what? We're gonna get uh figure it out. Jack and Joe, Jack and Joe know how to do the social media thing. I'm gonna pass you my computer, Jack.
+
+[5:15] And so we'll get you know, so another banner thing. Nastasha won't be typing if stopping for shoes during the show. This is like this isn't people, this is an incredible show. Anyway. Okay.
+
+[5:25] Deer cooking issues, peeps. What are your thoughts on glassware shape affecting the taste experience? If a diner sips the same wine or spirit out of two very differently shaped glasses, does it taste difference? If so, is there any science to why? Keep bringing the awesome from uh John Riper.
+
+[5:46] And it's uh because you know it's spelled R-I-P-E-R, so there's a question, and as everyone knows, I'm horrible at pronouncing names. So uh he hopefully added in parentheses, uh pronounced like the adjective a riper apple beats an unripe one. And you are so right, John, about the ripe brow. Before I answer your question, let me Nastash is putting her uh her dumb her dumbass face on, which is the face that you see when she's talking uh sitting next to me. Anyway, uh a which is a little different from the vegan face because it's like some liking in it, just you know, ah my uh anyway.
+
+[6:16] So here's the problem uh with with apples that are aren't aren't ripe. Uh so have I said it, I've said this before probably on the show a million times, but in just in case uh I want everyone to go to their local farmers' markets. Too late now, don't worry about it. But like next season when it comes around uh for apples, uh I'm a huge uh encourager of new of uh using old apple varieties, getting farmers to bring old apple varieties into the market. The problem with a lot of old apple varieties is they lose their crunchiness very quickly.
+
+[6:45] They're in fact not intended to be crunchy. And one of the things I hate most about Americans and the way we eat apples is that we refuse to uh eat apples that aren't in like just like hard like rocks. We think that there's only mealy and bad or hyper crunchy, and so we tend to go after apples like Granny Smith, even though it's an Australian apple, that are extremely uh crunchy. Mistake, because not all apples are supposed to be crunchy. But the problem is a lot of the older varieties, especially the dessert or the early season varieties, uh, are uh crumbly, which is the way you want a good apple of that type to be.
+
+[7:18] And in order to have it be crunchy instead of crumbly, because consumers we're too stupid to try and bend our heads around what that apple wants to be instead of what we think every apple should be, that uh the growers pick them when they're incredibly underripe. And when you pick an incredibly underripe apple, it is just monotonically acidic. And there are some people out there who will like that uh thing because what they really want to do is suck on a warhead. But if you want the flavor of an apple, you want to let it ripen, even though those ripe apples aren't gonna last very long, uh, the old ones that were especially the early ripeners. Anyway, so yes, a riper apple is better, John.
+
+[7:55] Now to your question. Um that's an aside. Yeah. Anyway. Oh, my Twitter account works.
+
+[8:01] Ooh, Twitter bugging! Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna follow you at the end of the show. Um, so to your question, so so the Riedel, uh, and it's it's it's Riedel, actually, it's not Redel. I refuse to call it, but it's it's Riedel. I spoke to Maximilian Riedel once, it's Rietel Glassware.
+
+[8:16] Um really? Yeah, Riedel. Uh so uh even though everyone says Redel, right? Everyone. Well, if you took some joymin, you'd know it's Redal.
+
+[8:24] Anyway, so the uh uh, you know, they've made an incredible business off of the shape of the glass being incredibly important to the way uh you experience particular drinks. Um I in fact went to a uh seminar, I can't remember who's who there's the the older Riedel and the younger one. I've met both of them, uh, but the older one gives and one of them's Maximilian, I forget what the other one is, but I was with the younger one, and he we we were in a uh we were shooting something for a friend of mine who's doing a pilot. This is like 15 years ago or something, and uh he takes two of his expensive ones and he goes, ting and he knocks them together. You know what he said?
+
+[9:01] This is the sound of money. That's what he said. He literally said that to me. This is the sound of money. And and the younger one's kind of an Australian playboy skills uh skis around in the Alps and stuff.
+
+[9:12] You'd like him. She loves the Alps. Anyway, so the uh so one thing she likes, she hates biscuits but loves the Alps. Who figured you know, go figure? Anyway, so um so you know, Riedel uh goes around, gives his seminars and makes a huge uh you know thing about how the glass uh shape uh is extremely important and does these incredibly compelling seminars where you'll be uh you'll be there and there'll be uh nine glasses, so like uh no more.
+
+[9:39] Three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three. That's what is that? Uh 27? Yeah, anyway, and so you'll you'll so you'll sit there and he'll do a grid. So he'll have uh the same spirit uh going across, right, with three different glasses, and then uh the same glass going down.
+
+[9:59] So you'll taste three different spirits in their correct glasses and in two wrong glasses in a grid. Not being very clear, but it makes sense if you think about it a little bit. And then he'll describe how only the particular glass shows off that particular uh spirit uh properly. And it is quite a compelling uh presentation. Uh however, I will say this.
+
+[10:18] Uh uh he himself is a great salesperson, and he guides you through the the tasting. So it's not uh triangle testing where you're testing to see which one. I mean, you can tell the difference, there's no doubt. At least it's when you know, I've never done it in an unguided way, but when he did it in the guided way, you definitely tell the difference. There is some um uh BSRy we'll say, some kind of bull BS around it, where you know, the the Riedles are still talking about the um the tongue, and they should show a picture of the tongue and they bring out the widely discredited incorrect view that you taste only uh certain things in certain areas.
+
+[10:56] You know, the old when you're growing up, they show you that map of the tongue, and in fact they still show that freaking map. The kids brought it home. And did you know for those of you out there that you're not allowed to t tell your kids that your parents are wrong? Your wife starts punching you under the table if you start just saying that your teachers are crazy and wrong and what they're teaching you in school is incorrect. Because apparently you're not supposed to do that.
+
+[11:15] I think that's fine. Well, it has to be if what they're teaching is incorrect, you know, uh like the nutrition that they teach kids is insane. It's insane. And I get in so much trouble because I'm like, well, your teacher is not a bad person, but they're just in wrong. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:27] But uh, whatever. And then uh whatever going back. So that the tongue thing is uh incorrect. In other words, the old map of where you taste salty and sweet and all that's uh incorrect. And Riedel used, although you do have different densities of receptors uh you know over your tongue, and your tongue does differ.
+
+[11:43] It is, it does have a map, but it's not the way it worked, uh, you know, like we were taught when we were kids. So Riedel uh makes a big thing about the shape of the glass directing, especially the shape of the lip directing certain things towards certain parts of your tongue. And I think that in in general is horse hockey. Now it is true that things taste different uh to you depending on where they're delivered in your mouth, and the shape of the glass does make a difference. I think the majority of the difference in the glassware is the bowl, the actual uh size of the bowl uh versus how much is poured in it.
+
+[12:15] That makes a huge difference because that determines the airspace to uh liquid volume ratio, which is extremely important. Uh also the shape of the bowl and how it holds and or concentrates and or dissipates the uh um aroma molecules, I think is vitally important to the way that we uh enjoy wine uh or any any liquid. So I think it's you know, for instance, I'll give you a for instance. So in um when we do the red hot poker drinks at the bar, um we we hit them with the red hot poker, and if you stick any of those red hot poker drinks into a normal glass and put your nose anywhere near it, the alcohol vapor is so concentrated that it's literally unpleasant. You can't bring it to your nose uh to drink because uh you just can't.
+
+[13:01] You know what I mean? It's just the alcohol vapor just blows your head off. So we always put those into coffee cups and you know, not tall wall mugs, but wide coffee cups because it dissipates more of that alcohol vapor uh as you bring it to your nose. Uh similarly, a very small glass that you can't even stick your nose into is going to de-emphasize aromas and things that have strong aromas. For instance, you know, those little tiny tasting glasses, versus the ones that are like have those giant bowls, and then like the your nose just fits into the rim of it, and then you're you know, you're sticking your hot box in your nose with the wine.
+
+[13:34] So you're you know, it's it's uh I mean that it can make a huge difference. Um and obviously there is science behind it, but I don't, you know, I wouldn't go so far as to say that that there is one particular glass shape for each particular wine, is true, although I have to say, uh, from personal experience, uh the guy's spiel is compelling when done in person. Yeah? Uh-huh. Yeah.
+
+[13:55] She's like, yeah, whatever, Google, whatever. Don't care. Okay. Um you gotta announce have people call in for Jack. Oh, yeah, this is the Valentine's Day.
+
+[14:03] Hey, by the way, cleared up the Twitter issue. You're not at Hammer BDX. That's your display name. You are still at Booker Index bar. No, no, no, don't worry, I changed that.
+
+[14:12] Nope. She messed it up. Look again. Just now? Yeah.
+
+[14:16] Wait, like right now? Oh my goodness. I'm learning. Wow. Well, let's not learn on other people's time, shall we?
+
+[14:23] Okay. We're not talking about Jack. Oh yeah. So Jack uh still dateless for the Valentine's Day. Very disappointed.
+
+[14:29] Maybe Nastasha's right. Do we have any? I mean, look, Jack, I looked the picture I tweeted out of Jack, not necessarily. He's he's the one that's not the stuffed uh boarhead. Yeah.
+
+[14:38] In that picture I tweeted out. But he's looking for the Valentine. And this is the Valentine's Day. Fingers crossed, caller, you're on the air. Hold on screen.
+
+[14:49] They hung up when they knew patch it to be hold on. All right. Thank you. Hey, how you doing? Hello?
+
+[14:56] Hi. Hi, this is uh Judah from Maryland. How are you doing? I love your show. Oh thanks.
+
+[15:00] Um I have uh I have a question regarding uh gelatin and bloom strength. Okay. Uh so I I keep codes for myself, and um like so many other things, there aren't very many uh kosher products on the market uh in certain areas, and gelatin is one of them. There is one company that produces uh powder gelatin, which they say is similar to Knox brand. Right.
+
+[15:22] But uh it doesn't have anything re uh you know indicating the bloom strength on the package. And I've tried to get in touch with them, and I've tried to call, email, whatever, no response. I was wondering if there was any way to you know, uh short of getting some fancy uh lab equipment to determine that myself. Um whether or not it's I know you mentioned uh in one of the past issues, like an over-under test, the numbers game, I think it was with the beep powder. Um if I did that comparing that to the Knox gelatin, what what characteristics should I look for?
+
+[15:56] Yeah, well the bloom, you know, the bloom strength is um uh you know it's not like blue I you're stretching my memory a little bit. It's been a while since I looked at the technical thing, but it's basically how uh I believe the bloom test is a penetration test based on a certain percentage of gelatin after the gelatin has been aged for a certain length of time on a certain test block, I think. Um I I believe that's what it is, but I have to go back and look it up. Or Nastasha, you can look up the definition of bloom strength while we're talking. Ooh, computer useful.
+
+[16:26] So um what I would do though from uh from your standpoint of what actually makes it useful is uh I would by the way, Nox gelatin is extremely high bloom strength compared to a lot of uh Nox is a pretty strong gelatin. It's like 220 or something, right? Yeah, it's pretty high. It's like in the gold, it's in the gold or platinum range if you are dealing with leaf. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:46] It's okay. Um so and this is another thing, by the way, that I encourage everyone to pay attention. So like when I write a recipe, I write a recipe for Knox because I'm I'm you know, I'm depending on that bloom strength. Uh and my guess is that the bloom strength is pretty much uh you know directly related to the um chain length of the uh gelatin uh things. I'll I'll read you what the Wikipedia says.
+
+[17:09] Uh bloom test is a measure of the strength of a gelatin, uh originally developed by a guy named Bloom, that I knew. The weight in grams needed by a probe to deflect a cer uh the surface of the gel four millimeters without breaking it. So it's also a uh a measure of its uh uh yeah of its you know inability uh ability to take resilience. Correct. Good, thank you.
+
+[17:28] Um so what I would simply do is, you know, these things are fairly easy to tell by uh what was the concentration it said to test it at? Uh at a kid. Oh. Yeah. Uh for the product.
+
+[17:40] No, it's six point six. When they're doing bloom tests, they do it at six point six, which is very high. Um six point six percent. So what I would do is I would just make uh I would just make the two j uh gel side by side and then just test them. You'll be able to tell with your finger.
+
+[17:52] You don't need a you know, a four or six millimeter probe or whatever it is. If you just take the two um and make them side by side, you'll be able to see uh exactly what's happening. I have my doubts that the kosher gelatin's gonna be anywhere near as strong as the Nox. Um because I mean i do they say what it's made out of? They don't uh from bovine skins.
+
+[18:12] Okay, so it is a well, okay, so good. It's not one of the kosher fish gelatins. No, it's not a fish gelatine. Yeah, the fish gelatins are horrible. Everyone knows they're horrible.
+
+[18:19] They're not as strong. They have a low melting point. They're just they're bad. I mean they're not bad, but you know, they're not bad. They're not bad.
+
+[18:24] That's sort of not what I say it. But like they're not a good replacement for Nox. Um but yeah, so if it's made by cow, you actually it has a good shot if they d you know, depending on how it's it's all depends on how they extract it and at what point in the extraction you get your stuff. Like I think the first stuff that comes off is the higher chain li uh or is it yeah. I think anyway, so like the the the stuff that's you know easier, I think to extract is the higher chain like it's been a long time since I've looked it up.
+
+[18:46] So it's in too possible. Just make the two side by side and push on 'em and you'll see what's going on. I mean, if you're gonna use it for a more technical recipe, like if you're gonna use it for gelatin clarification, for instance, then um, you know, I would uh then it's gonna be a little more important exactly what it is, but i i if it feels fairly similar to the Nox in reasonable concentrations, then I think it's probably gonna act pretty much like the Nox, especially if it's a cow based gelatin, uh and not a you know, not some sort of a fish based gelatin. Right. And let's say let's say I do the test and it is pretty far off from my uh perception of it.
+
+[19:20] Um there would be really no other good way of determining what it's comparable to. No, I mean y you know, you're short of getting short of getting um, you know, a bunch of different uh gelatins together that you like the the leaf strength, right? Right. And then you can figure out excuse me. Sorry, you can figure out where it is in relation to the other standard leaf strengths, you know, the silver or the gold or the you know the um but you know if the the the person you literally spoke to a person and they said that it was comparable to Nox and Bloom strength.
+
+[19:49] No, it says it on the package actually, but I can't I can't get through to a human being. Yeah, you know, you I would be careful there was a big thing with uh, you know, vegetarian uh marshmallows back in the day. Someone was using a supposed vegetarian gelatin that was also kosher, and the uh the people who were making it were just liars. They were just liars. Yeah, yeah, they just lied on the package, straight up lied.
+
+[20:13] And and then uh and you uh you can actually it's an interesting Google uh search to dig down into is to is the case of these uh all these people who were really excited that they could all of a sudden make these really spot on vegetarian marshmallows using this supposed kosher vegetarian gelatin replacer when in fact they were just using jello. Um but I'm not saying these people are liars. I don't even know who you're talking about. I'm not calling them liars. Yeah, yeah, but uh yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:39] Nastash is looking at me like you're calling these people liars. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not. Uh but uh I would uh you know it has look, if if it's if it's from cows, it has a good shot of being a high quality uh there I mean high bloom strength uh gelatin. So I would just make them and hope that they are the same. And if not, you can always um you know, make like you were saying over under, uh, you know, make a make a like a two percent uh uh two percent um knocks, right?
+
+[21:03] And then make like a two percent, a three percent, and a uh a four percent of uh the unknown one and then see where it falls, right? And then if it's in between, and just from a you'll you can tell just by you know seeing how far it bends for breaks, pushing through it, seeing how much force it takes to push through, and then you could probably hone it down to within a couple of tenths of a percent of how to adjust the recipes. Okay. Make sense? Yeah, and then what I would do as a final thing is I would take it down after you think you know what the answer is in a firmer gel, I would take it down until just the point where it doesn't gel, like a very, very light aspic, because that's gonna be where the numbers are more critical, and if you can if you can make it mimic that on a light, light uh gel aspect kind of situation, you'll be able to do it pretty much at all the ranges.
+
+[21:52] Okay. Alrighty? All right, great. Thank you so much. Thanks.
+
+[21:55] Good luck with it. Okay. So wait, did I answer I answered the what I answered the glass question? Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[22:01] Okay. Oh, wrong password. Oh my gosh, we're just breaking up today. Okay. Uh question in from Zach in Pittsburgh.
+
+[22:07] How you ins doing? I like you ins. You don't like you and's? What is you're ins? UN's or yen?
+
+[22:12] It's like you, you ones, you, you, you plurals. Okay. Like use. Like we would say use here. Pay use.
+
+[22:19] Uh although here in like the Jersey, in the Jersey, New York situation, you can just be one person. Uh but that's a that's a complete anomaly. It shouldn't be. What are you doing? You know what I mean?
+
+[22:32] But it's it should be you're meaning like you plural. You know what I mean? Like y'all. Like that's our y'all. Like the people in the south are like, we have y'all.
+
+[22:38] What do you have? You, hey. You guys, what the hell? Anyway. Uh I've recently this is Zach talking now.
+
+[22:45] I've recently improved the quality of the cheese I keep around the house, which has been a very pleasurable experience. My only problem is as the prices good cheese go for in Pittsburgh, and everywhere, by the way, Zach, although you can get some decent cheese prices in uh in New York for certain things. Uh, you know, I'm always uh um what's the word? Shy or not shy, I beware of uh cheap, uh inexpensive cheese, because usually it means that it was stored uh crappily, and then the people who are gonna sell it for a lot of money didn't want to buy it, and the bargain basement people decide that they could push a higher end cheese that isn't necessarily in peak condition, so they get it at a bargain basement rate and sell it out. And you know, I'd rather not even I'd rather not even buy that cheese unless it's delicious, but you know, usually a lot of that stuff's really busted up, it's not that you know what I'm talking about, Sus?
+
+[23:33] Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. So in other words, beware cheap, beware, you know, inexpensive is one thing, but beware like you know, cut rate cheese emporiums. I had a friend who brought uh cheese recently to a dinner party that had a big red sales sticker on it. You know who that friend is.
+
+[23:48] Yes, yes. Nastasha, Nastasha's uh has the neg the negative uh house guest Olympics, like so nor like the house guest Olympics are where you keep a track of your house guests as they come and you see you like, oh, they bought a nice bottle of wine, they're good. Let's have these people back, or you know, oh they brought a cake, oh nice, you know. They brought you know, bupkis. Special Olympics of the case.
+
+[24:08] Yeah, she has the reverse Olympics, like to see who can bring the crappiest thing to her house. If you're invited to Nastasha's house and you really want to make an impression, bring the crappiest thing you can find. You'll be invited back all the time. Yeah, Boons, Boone's Farms, you know. I'd bring Pillsbury biscuits.
+
+[24:26] Hey, you know what? You you you would like, you know, that's like the nicest thing anyone's ever brought her in her house. I don't like biscuits. Oh, because you hate biscuits. Boom!
+
+[24:36] Got her. Uh see, you know what? I wasn't even thinking because uh even though I know that she doesn't in my head knows she doesn't like biscuits, my heart can't believe that I work with someone who doesn't like biscuits. It's like, you know, whatever. Uh okay, so uh wait, where was I?
+
+[24:50] You want to take a quick break? Sure. Wait, wait, answer the question or no? Well, did I even say the question yet? I didn't say the question.
+
+[24:55] All right, we'll take a break, we'll come back. Cooking issues. I'll see you in my dreams. You are listening to Plexophonic. I'll see you in my dreams on cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[25:14] Still, I feel the thrill of your charms. Lips that once were mine. Tender as that shine. They will let my way tonight. I'll see you in my dreams.
+
+[25:50] Did Jack test? Yeah. Alright, Jack has tested Nastasha's new email and it works. I mean, new uh Twitter. Twitter it works, yeah.
+
+[25:57] Where we last oh, by the way, were we gonna get still gonna get our fish as fish later? Oh yeah. Okay, okay. Always gotta get it. So where we last left off, Zach was buying cheese in um where was he in Pittsburgh?
+
+[26:08] Yeah. Zach was buying cheese in Pittsburgh and he was having some problems because the uh cheese is expensive. So let's get back to his question because I wasn't able to finish it because as usual, I spun off into some crazy BS. Okay. Uh Zach's only problem is at the prices good cheese go for in Pittsburgh, I want to use every gram of the good stuff.
+
+[26:25] Is using the rinds to make stock viable. I've seen it described online, but have my doubts as to how well it would work. The cheese uh seems uh to be so non-porous that I'm not going to get much out of it. I do most of my stock making the old fashioned way. I know you like using the pressure cooker method.
+
+[26:41] Would there be much difference in results using a pressure cooker for cheese stock versus the traditional stock pot? Thanks for the great show, Zach in Pittsburgh. Um yeah, it works. It works great. I mean, uh, you know, uh Wiley for a long time has been making uh Parmesan rind uh parmigiano.
+
+[26:56] You're like Parmesan, what are you an idiot? That's what the stash is saying. Look, she's giving me the idiot look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So uh no, but like the rinds of hard cheeses make uh fantastic um stocks, assuming that, you know, obviously if you put something that's been like waxed, then I wouldn't do it because um well you could skim the wax off the top, I guess.
+
+[27:15] Or, you know, I wouldn't do it with something that's extremely uh you know it works well with um rubbed hard rind cheeses. And um they it's not that they m melt out, but you remember it it was originally like a porous uh an agglomeration of the uh solids, the milk solids, and stuff comes out, you leak fat out, you leak flavor out, so you do get a really good uh uh amount of flavor out out of the rinds. Stay away from rinds that are disgusting. So when you eat a parmigiano rind, the rind is hard to get flavor out of when you chew on it because it's so freaking hard and dry and dense. But it is not literally disgusting.
+
+[27:53] You know what I mean? Whereas uh certain rinds are literally gross. Like, you know, I wouldn't I can eat a little bit of it, but the outside of a cloth-bound cheddar isn't a rind that I would sit there and make a stock out of because it's you know musty and mighty uh, you know, and uh I'm fine with mites. In fact, you know, there's a cheese I've really been wanting to try from I think the north of Italy on the on the border in Austria and in Austria that's all mites. They make a qu a quark-like thing, like put it in tubes and stick it in drawers and let uh cheese mites eat it until it's mites all the way through, and you break it, and it's just a big brown mighty mass.
+
+[28:28] They're alive. Well, kind of, some of them are. Mighty mass. Well, there's this famous Italian cheese with the maggots, the maggot cheese. Where the flies lay the eggs and then they make the maggots in it and you break the cheese open and it's all wriggling.
+
+[28:41] And you know, it's not so common anymore. I don't even know if it's still legal in Italy, but it was very common back in the day. And uh, you know, and they would break them open, and some cheeses would have them and some wouldn't, but it was considered a good thing, and people would mop up the maggots with the uh with the with the bread. Wow. Yeah, yeah, real deal.
+
+[28:57] Um, so yes, uh, yes, and it works without a uh without a pressure cooker. Although I would highly recommend moving to pressure cooked stocks in general, uh based on flavor and time. If you get a non-venting one, everyone knows my feelings about pressure cookers and that you should use a non-venting um uh pot to do your um to do your although interesting. I was thinking about this before. I wonder whether or not a venting pot like the Fagors that you know I'm not a huge fan of.
+
+[29:23] I wonder whether they're actually better for things like mustard seeds and sulfur things where we're flashing stuff off, or whether they're better for remember uh way back in the day when I pressure were you that was this when we pressure cooked the durian? I wasn't there for that. You were there? So we were pressure cooking durian and um it was uh it was pretty cool. Uh I we made a mistake and I had the durian in the bottom.
+
+[29:42] I usually put a uh the I usually put things like that in a bowl and put water underneath so that I'm pressure cooking it, but I'm not worried about scorching. And I don't know, we put the durian directly into the pressure cooker and it was a venting kind of pressure cooker, and we cooked it for an indeterminate length of time, and I opened it, and what we had was this kind of durian candy like like stuff at the bottom that it caramelized and it had no it was complete even for a 100% westerner with no like like of the durian smell, stuff was great, and I've never been able to mimic it. But you know, my a lot of my post uh tests on durian have been with the Coon Recon, which doesn't vent. I wonder whether durian requires a venting pressure cooker. Interesting problem.
+
+[30:19] I have no idea. Um, so what do you think? You think we answered that one? Yeah. I'm looking at the maggate's.
+
+[30:24] Uh of course she's well, I'm trying to figure she got her hand over her mouth because she doesn't want me to describe her faith. I can't tell you whether or not uh Dan Rabinowitz writes in. First, I love the show, it's one of the few that uh both assumes a working. I'm gonna interrupt Dan Rabinowitz, thanks for becoming a member. Oh, that's it.
+
+[30:45] Sorry, you can't go on. Thank you, Dan. Okay. Uh uh first love the show. It's one of the few that both assumes a working knowledge of cooking and modern methods, but it still dumps it down enough for me, an attorney by day to understand.
+
+[30:55] Uh I find it the perfect compliment to modernist cuisine. Well, thank you. Nice. So double thanks. Uh I've heard your terrific method of infusing alcohols with ISI whippers, and I was wondering if it was necessary to use as a base something high in alcohol content, or couldn't I use wine and make a vermouth using the ISI whipper infusion method?
+
+[31:12] I've been making vermouth using the recipe on www.wine mag.com. Uh and that's a wine enthusiast from April 2008, uh, which requires infusion, uh, which I've done sous-vide in 45 minutes, uh, and then after the infusion, the addition of sherry to fortify and stabilize, right? Could I infuse the herbs and botanicals via ISI and then add sherry and then voila vermouth. Uh I am kosher and there's no good or even drinkable kosher vermouth, so this could be a godsend pun intended. Much appreciated, uh Dan.
+
+[31:41] Okay. First of all, if you're gonna yes, you can do ISI infusion with uh water alone. It does work. It takes a lot longer and the higher the alcohol content the faster the infusions are. Um I would add the sherry before uh but I I looked at the recipe uh very quickly and I could try to look at it again or Nastasha can look it up.
+
+[32:01] Uh I think there's heating involved in that in that recipe right while you look up that go into the email and look up the recipe if there's heating involved in that recipe uh then obviously you're gonna add the higher stuff to fortify it later. If not, you know I don't see any reason why you can't add uh the sherry earlier and boost up the alcohol content. Um that might help. Also one one thing I'm you know I I really want to say about it it'll work. It won't be the same.
+
+[32:24] It could be better, it could be worse, it will be different. So you know every aspect uh and this is the something I come back to uh again and again with new new techniques um in the kitchen is sometimes sometimes techniques completely replace other techniques. Like the only clarification method that I use at the bar now is centrifuge because I don't see any reason to use any other clarification technique. But when it comes to something like um in unless our centrifuge is broken in which case I would use one of the other techniques. But with infusion all the flavors are uh are dependent upon exactly how they're produced.
+
+[33:04] So the temperature at which something's infused, the alcohol level at which something's infused, the concentration of the thing you're infusing, um the length of time, the pressure oh every single one of the in fact, also whether something's infused on its own or with other things is also uh dependent, whether the the size of the particle is extremely important, um, you know, whether you've sucked a uh aside from the actual pressure, the whether you've sucked a vacuum and therefore gotten better contact by removing the air so that you got better contact between what you're infusing and the and the and the product. Um all of these things have uh an impact on the flavor. And it doesn't necessarily make things um better or worse, just different. So, you know, if you're using a vermouth recipe that has you know wormwood in it, let's say, which the recipe did have, then um ISI is going to is going to be faster and for uh the same length of time it will um disfavor the bitter components in wormwood, right? And it'll preferentially pull out uh other elements.
+
+[34:08] So when you know the the way we when I use ISI I like to go back to one of the ones the things that I do a lot in them, things like coffee, things like chocolate, and um the advantage of them in those uh instances is that uh it tends to extract less of the bitter components that you would get out by doing a longer term extraction, which favor uh extracting everything in, including all the bitters, and uh and instead tend to favor the extraction of some of the higher notes and you know some of the uh the things that pull out faster. And so I like you know, I like it for that. ISI is also obviously good for doing things that are fresh and will not infuse well if you need to let them sit around for a long time. So it's not uh better or worse, different, right? What do you think?
+
+[34:55] Was that a heated recipe? The salsify? No, the the the homemade vermouth uh with that one, no, I'm on the other one. Yeah, so go go check it out. But yes, you could do it in ISI whipper.
+
+[35:06] I would just let it sit a lot longer. You can also do oils in the ISI whipper. We've done we've done oils in it. Anyway, so yes, it will work. And I would try it for uh I mean I would try it for much longer than we do with hard liquor.
+
+[35:20] I would try it for tens of minutes, maybe even up to an hour and see see what happens, see what kind of infusion you need. Yeah, it's heated. So uh that's why they add the sherry later. So you wouldn't even need to add the sherry later if you're never going to heat it. You could add the sherry at the beginning, that would also accelerate your uh your infusion.
+
+[35:34] It still will be different. But it could be delicious. I would let it sit longer, like like maybe the length of time you're doing the sous vide one, like 45 minutes. See what happens. If that's too strong, dial it back.
+
+[35:44] Do you know what I mean? But remember, whenever you're doing ISI infusion, um, and you can go back on Cooking Issues blog because it's open again. Uh the uh look up the technique. When you're doing it, remember that it takes a good 10-15 minutes after you've uh unscrewed it and let it flashed off for the flavor to stabilize. Okay?
+
+[35:59] Okay. Um question in from who we can oh actually, no. Yep, we have a question in from Tony Harry, and I know we do. I'm looking for it. Okay.
+
+[36:09] Hope you are all well. I have a couple questions about distillation in a rota vap uh for Dave. Uh, do you still vouch for the use of a peristaltic pump on the condenser side? Is it really worth it? And what is your take on distilling several botanicals together or or versus separately in a rotovap?
+
+[36:24] It's quite hard sometimes to distinguish uh if they create diminishing effects on each other, uh, as described in the following quote from a magazine article, or if it is just harder to identify the specific flavors when you do uh distillation of multiple things together. And this is a quote uh from uh Difford's guide, uh class magazine or a class magazine has quoted on Difford's guide um with someone who's doing his own distillation in in the London. Um and the quote is there is a this is in quote, negative activated carbon effect from distilling botanicals separately. When botanicals are distilled together, as in traditional gin distillation, the presence of just one single absorbing element will affect the entire gin as it will absorb flavors from its neighboring botanicals. Well that that quote is somewhat uh um what's the thing?
+
+[37:10] It's a bit muddled in terms of like understanding it on its own. So what they're I've never heard of, by the way, a negative activated carbon effect before in my life. Uh so I don't know exactly, I mean, I uh what I think is is that the fellow that was making the gins in London, like that's something that he and and like you know his crew talk about a lot, so it probably makes more sense. They're probably referring, I don't know why it's negative activated carbon in a situation where they're probably talking about the effect that activated carbon has of absorbing flavors and somehow relating the effect. What they're really saying is is that uh multiple things distilled together uh they can affect uh the amount of flavor released by the other ones, and so we want to do it uh separately.
+
+[37:48] So then the the question is, and this is from Tony, which do I prefer? To distill each individual ingredient separately and blend it uh and blend them together, which is how this fellow makes his gin, or distill it all together in the flask and do one single run. Uh I think there's advantages to both techniques, flesh flexibility versus speed, just to begin, but it's not always easy to reproduce the result of one method using the other. Keep up the great work, cheers, Tony Harrion. Okay.
+
+[38:11] Uh so my feelings are this uh they are entirely different. Uh there is no doubt in my mind that um flavors taste different when they are distilled together and they can uh affect each other. What I think it I don't think about it uh in the in the way that um you know they're thinking about, by the way, in case people don't know what the hell we're talking about, a rotovap is just a still that runs at uh at a lower temperature because the entire thing's put under a vacuum. And it has a couple of advantages uh over a normal still in that we can get extremely high recapture rate of the flavors that go into it. So it's very good, very, very good at doing uh redistillations of botanicals uh because we can do them at very low temperatures, especially fresh botanicals that you couldn't otherwise do that are very heat sensitive.
+
+[39:01] Uh and so that's that's what we're talking about. Um here's the deal. Uh I always recommend the first time you distill a botanical to distill it by itself in pure vodka. I don't recommend you do it in water, and I don't recommend you do it in uh in super high proof ethanol. I recommend you do it in vodka.
+
+[39:20] And when you at 40 proof, uh uh 40%, 80 proof. And so then when you distill that down, right, that that is gonna and taste it. That is gonna give you an idea of what that sucker does on its own, right? Then you can do some blending, but I would also encourage you to try a mixed recipe because I find that sometimes it is much better to do a mixed recipe. That the that the flavor you get from distilling things together is better than any mix I can make of things on their own.
+
+[39:53] However, there is no easier way to try to reach a target than to make all the botanicals separately and then blend them together to taste. And I think that that is a very good way. And also, by the way, if you're doing bitters uh or even things like vermouth, a good way to figure out what's going on is to do them separately to figure out what's going on and then mix them together and see whether you get a good result. However, uh, then I would also try to do after you've done that, then do a mixed uh version and see whether you like the blended one or whether you think you're gonna like the mixed one better. And so that's what I said.
+
+[40:28] What do you think? Dean. Good. Oh, and on the peristaltic pump, what the hell that means is uh roto vaps the way they work, one of the downsides of a rotovap is that the distillate stays in a vessel uh uh called a receiver and uh over the course of the distillation and and that causes two problems. One, you can't taste it, so you don't know what the hell's going on.
+
+[40:47] You don't know what it tastes like as it's going. And any r regular distiller knows you want to taste uh the stuff to see kind of when you should cut the distillation and then also to taste how the distillation's going during the run. Uh and if you needed to cut the heads which is the beginning part which we don't typically do in a rotovap because we're not doing we're not distilling uh fermentable fermented things we're distilling you know spirits usually um so uh you know it's good to taste right so that's the one thing and so well you know I developed a thing for the rotovap that you plug on and it uses something called a peristaltic pump which is uh you know it's it just it's a it's like a squeegee that squeegies the stuff out peristaltic pumps are great because they don't contaminate your product and they can work on on a vacuum system. So uh install a peristaltic pump that constantly pumps the distillate out of the vacuum system without you losing a vacuum uh and lets you taste exactly what the distillate tastes like at any particular point in the distillation. Here this is the key part the distillation tastes different at every single point in the distillation because the boiling point of the product is different as as it as it distills and therefore what you're distilling off is different.
+
+[41:49] So it's I think it's vitally important to be able to taste the distillate as it's being produced to figure out what's going on. And in fact certain uh distillates are better if you remove certain portions of them and so you can do that only if you have a peristaltic pump attached to gauge accurately what's going on. The other situation, if you have an old rotovap that's at all leaky, uh the the product sitting in that receiver is constantly losing flavor over the course of the distillation because you're you're you're losing, you're getting some air stripping through the through the system because your roto vap is leaky. In a perfectly sealed roto vap, assuming you knew exactly when to do your cuts, you would not need to have the peristaltic pump. But I find that in the real life, when it's a little bit leaky, you get a lot of flavor stripping out of that thing.
+
+[42:34] And so the peristaltic pump is extremely helpful. The problem with the peristaltic pump is that uh your tubing needs to be in top shape, and you can't use the tubing recommended by the manufacturers because it's not strong enough to stand up to the vacuum levels that we're doing in the rotovap. And so uh it you know it degrades very, very quickly, and once the tubing degrades, you actually get vacuum loss through the tube, and then it's just a big it's just a big jumbota. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so that's that's that.
+
+[42:58] So should we go to our second commercial break? Uh I think you should keep going all the way through. Keep going. Wait, just keep wait, I gotta hear my fish's fish. All right, second commercial break.
+
+[43:23] Heritage Radio Network.org. We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member, Amber Point of Sale. At Amber Point of Sale, their mission is to help food service business owners take control of their restaurants, bars, or cafes. Amber is an easy-to-use point of sale system that allows you to take orders tableside, process credit cards, run reports, and manage inventory all through Apple's iPad and without spending tens of thousands of dollars on a system too complicated to use. To learn more, head to Amberapp.com.
+
+[44:26] That's A M B U R A P P dot com. Or give them a call at 888-770-2205 to discuss what Amber can do for you. To learn more about becoming a business member, email us. Info at heritageradio network.org. And welcome back.
+
+[44:43] Uh Dan writes in. Just finished listening to last week's cooking issue show and had a comment. Hope you can pass along. The show dealt with calcium oxide, and they didn't know what it'll be used for in cooking. Uh in uh Andoni uh Adoree's recent cookbook, Moogaritz, he uses calcium oxide for at least three recipes where the calcium oxide is mixed with water and then a vegetable.
+
+[45:00] From what I understand, after soaking, the vegetable skin is left intact, but the uh entire inside is a puree, so you get a solid with almost a liquid inside. And you can see an example uh called false uh fossilized salsify uh uh on the website. Uh but a better one is uh beet that is soaked in calcium oxide and then turns the color, uh turns uh the color and wrinkles like a prune or a pumpkin, and this hard outside but a puree inside. I too is wondering if I could buy any calcium oxide and use it or uh uh or if it has to be food grade. Thanks again, Dan.
+
+[45:26] Okay, listen, once again, uh that has got to be a mistranslation because uh it's calcium hydroxide. You know, the f the fossilized vegetable thing, you know, uh it's something you know we've done uh b before a calcium calcium oxide. Look, I could be 100% wrong here, in which case please write in again. But uh calcium oxide added to water will immediately react with the water and form calcium hydroxide and a large amount of heat. So uh my guess is is that you know we're dealing with, unless you read it in Spanish, that we're dealing either with a mistranslation or I don't know why he is using the oxide, which is literally going to just sit there and convert into calcium hydroxide when it's added to water uh and the and liberate heat.
+
+[46:12] Um that recipe should work with calcium hydroxide, which is cowl or or cow uh, you know, uh or any one of those other things, uh pickling lime or anything. I didn't get a chance to actually look at the at the website to take a look or look at the recipe, but uh all of those uh stiffening things are not the result of the uh base nature of the calcium oxide, but due to the calcium itself, the calcium it first of all lowering the um the calcium um strengthens the pectin, right? So what happens is the calcium goes in there uh and encourages the uh crosslinking of the pectins that are in the outside, and because it's not vacuum infused in it only works on the things that are outside, and so the pectins don't break down uh even over long periods of cooking. Uh in something like uh when you're doing nixdamal, the the basicity is also useful in dissolving the seed coat uh on the outside, but uh I don't know what effect the basicity has on um on something like uh on something like uh, I don't know, my brain is totally fried, but the basicity has on the effect of something like uh like a vegetable. Except for this.
+
+[47:22] I know that uh when you add baking soda to uh broccoli, we did this test it. Do we ever put this on cooking issues? I can't remember. If you add baking soda to broccoli water, the stuff stays green forever because it's not acidic, and so the chlorophyll doesn't get uh changed in form and stays bright green. The problem is it gets mushy because um in basic conditions the pectin breaks down much more rapidly.
+
+[47:43] Right? Yeah, yeah. However, if you use cow, right, the calcium prevents the basic nature uh from uh the from turning it mushy and it stays uh stays hard. So, you know, my my feeling is is that if you used calcium oxide as your uh as your calcium source, that it would just turn to calcium hydroxide anyway. But please, someone who's better in chemistry, call back and tell me what's going on.
+
+[48:06] Anyway, uh what do you think? Enough, enough, nothing? Okay. Um okay. Marty writes in uh could you please ask Dave what his experiences have been like fermenting rice?
+
+[48:15] I made a giant pot of glutinous rice, pitched a couple of Chinese yeast balls in with it, and put the whole mess into a fermentation pot for three weeks before straining out the liquid. The results taste like cloudy shwaty balls. If you remember that, remember that? Shuddy balls. Uh I love that, like uh I love though that you actually have a mental whatever, I'm not gonna talk about it.
+
+[48:32] I'm thinking I didn't let it ferment long enough. Any tips thank Marty. Marty, I'm thinking you fermented it too long. So what we're talking about here is these uh these balls you can get in uh did McGee ever write about them? I don't know.
+
+[48:44] Harold McGee taught us about them is that you can go into almost any uh you know ch large Chinese grocery store in uh in Chinatown and you get these little yeast balls and they look like little white, almost like malted balls, you know what I mean? And then uh and they're a mixture of uh uh you know bacteria, I think, and yeast, similar to kind of koji, but different, you know, similar to the Japanese koji kind of thing, but different. And you cook a glutinous rice, and then you crumple up the ball and you mix it with water and you put it into the glutinous rice, uh, and it breaks it down, it breaks into a liquid, so you can make something you know, this kind of liquid uh drink, uh Chinese style liquid rice drink, or and the rice hus left over can be fried. And McGee was doing a lot of work on it, and I think he might have written about it for for either for something or other, because he had done a lot of work with it, and Dan Felder at Mamafuku's lab has worked with it a bunch because they're doing a lot of work with different kinds of koji. Um, but those things ferment relatively quickly.
+
+[49:38] Like when I was doing it, I've only done it like three times. Uh I I let it only go for like four days. Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that your your cloudy shweddy balls uh is mainly due to uh letting it go too long. Now I wasn't getting super high yields out of it, so maybe you're trying to let it go longer because after it broke and went liquid, you didn't get enough of a yield out of the situation.
+
+[50:00] I know Dan Felder has been doing some interesting work where he's break pre-breaking the rice grain to try and increase the yield for stuff like that. But uh I don't I don't know enough about his actual techniques because you know we're we we don't actually work together, right? Uh but I I think your problem there is you're just going too long. It's I think I I I used mine like a day or two after it broke, and I did my D I did my stuff in uh my dehydrator. I put it in a big bowl in my dehydrator covered, so I wasn't actually dehydrating it, but so that I could keep the temperatures high.
+
+[50:30] Because my temperatures, I think I was running it at like 120, a little under 120, maybe like one, like maybe like a hundred, a hundred degrees Fahrenheit, a hundred and ten, hundred, something like that, uh covered with uh with plastic wrap, and it it only ran like for like four days or something like that before I used it. So don't go as long, Marty. And taste it as you go. Taste it as you did. Did you forget about it, Marty.
+
+[50:52] I think what happened is Marty made it and he let it sit there and he forgot about it. And then he came back, you know, several weeks later and tell so because like it did because what I would do whenever I do anything like this is you gotta make a large enough batch so that you can taste a little bit as it goes, so you know what's happening to it along the way. And I think you'll find that earlier in in the process it's gonna be um a little bit better. Right? Okay.
+
+[51:15] Um uh Kevin uh Liu writes in and uh we you know uh Twitter What are you doing? Nastasha literally smashed her head into the microphone. Yeah, it was the headphone. Yeah, sure it was the headphone. Anyway.
+
+[51:28] Uh so yeah, we we talked to Kevin a lot on uh on the Twitter, and uh he writes in that uh he's been working on a cocktail book, it's 90% done, uh, and uh sent us a copy, so we're gonna read it and then I will make some comments next week on the on the book after we get a chance to read it, right? Yep. Yeah. Uh you know, I myself am also it's on the cocktails in science. Uh and uh so I you know, I look forward to look forward to reading it.
+
+[51:53] I am also, of course, writing a book on a similar subject. Uh of course, mine is is six months overdue, and I'm a bad person, and I'm getting threatening letters from my publisher. True or false. So eight months overdue. What did I say?
+
+[52:06] Six. It was due in June, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks.
+
+[52:10] Thanks for the moral support. Stas just a font of moral support. Um anyway. So uh Ken what? What the heck?
+
+[52:20] Your head has been on your neck your whole life. How do you not know where it is? This is the best segment of the show yet. Seriously, people, I think, you know. Okay.
+
+[52:30] So I'll leave you with this. Ken Igber, longtime listener, friend of ours, friend of the show. Uh, is he a member? Is Ken a member? Uh not yet, but Ken if you should be.
+
+[52:39] He came to the Museum of Food and Drink uh uh event that we did uh a couple years ago. By the way, little little more expensive than the members. Yeah, that's right. Membership is only sixty bucks, Ken. HeritageRadio Network dot org backslash donate.
+
+[52:51] Wow. I have to. Yeah, to plug the plug. Okay. Uh speaking of the museum, uh before before we go out, uh good news on the museum we're we're we're looking at some different spaces for spaces.
+
+[53:01] So look for more stuff happening in the museum. A lot of people are like, what's going on with the museum? What's going on with the museum is uh and this is a museum of food and drink for people that this is the first time you've ever heard what's going on. Uh we're working on a museum of food and drink that we hope to open up in New York City uh in the next couple of years. If we're gonna start small as a gallery space, and we have a lot of really, really good, good people um behind us in the food community.
+
+[53:22] And uh there's an RFP uh request for proposals for spaces in the Lower East Side right near where I live. Uh and so we're trying to work on on that. And if we can't get that, we're trying to find some other spaces. So anyone that wants to come help out, we have people working on the museum full time. We have a team of three people working on it full time.
+
+[53:38] Anyone wants to uh you know, volunteer to help help them out or give any advice on that stuff, you know, please uh tweet us on in and I'll send you on over to the Museum of Food and Drink people. Or tweet me. All right, tweet Nastasha, please, please follow her. Otherwise I'm gonna have to hear the mopingness of no one following Nastasha. Oh my god.
+
+[53:57] All right, anyway. So long time listener and uh supporter of the museum, Ken Ken Ken Ingber, uh uh wrote in about the question we had on uh philosophy. Remember, oh, before I do that, do I have I do have time to that we had a a call in real quick. Uh not a call in, but uh uh someone who tweeted in uh late. I'll do their question real quick because I'm I'm gonna be fast.
+
+[54:14] Elliot writes in uh Dave, Nastasha, and crew. I'm thinking about making bread with a portion of the flour replaced by dehydrated vegetable powder. I would juice the vegetables, reserve the liquid to hydrate the dough, then dehydrate the pulp and grind to a fine powder for use in uh as a dry ingredient additive in the bread. Any suggestion on what to do, uh what to add to the dry ingredients for gluten development? Thanks for the help, Elliot.
+
+[54:36] Okay, so I'm assuming that you're dealing with a regular gluten bread, uh, and then uh so that this is not a difficult problem. And I used to do this all the time. Just go buy vital wheat gluten uh in the store, and then uh you know, the whatever percentage powder you're adding, just add enough vital wheat gluten to equal the proportion of bread flour, and you should get not a hundred, it's not gonna be a hundred percent similar because the product that you're adding isn't flour, but you should be able to get some of the strength involved. So let's say you were gonna add 20% of the weight of uh, you know, of the flour um as this vegetable powder, right? Then you what you're talking about is uh 20% of the weight of the flour, you figure you're like, you know, 14% protein or something like that, 12%, you know, whatever, 12%, 14% protein.
+
+[55:21] So you should add uh whatever 12, 14% of that, 20% you should add as vital wheat gluten, right? And it's not gonna be 100% the same because you're adding like a pectin slurry and stuff like that. The other the other way to do it is uh not go through that trouble is here's what you're doing, here's what you say you're gonna do. You say you're gonna juice the vegetables, right? And then you're gonna hydrate the dough with the liquid from the vegetables and then add the pulp.
+
+[55:45] It seems to me that if you just figure out, go on the internets and figure out the moisture content of the vegetables to begin with, then you could calculate how much liquid is in the vegetables. Oh, I see what you're you're worried that you're worried that there's not gonna be enough. I see, you're worried that it's gonna be hard to hydrate. Uh, my my head is thinking, well, you're worried that's it that it's gonna be difficult to hydrate unless you actually separate it out versus just adding the puree to the bread. That's my guess, right?
+
+[56:08] Right? Anyone else with me? Anyway, so if you think that's otherwise, you can just add the puree and add gluten to make up for it, but I see what you're saying. You want to get the juice, hydrate the dough properly, then add the paste back. Whatever.
+
+[56:18] Try it that way, but just add some vital weak gluten, it shouldn't be a problem. Okay, back to Ken. So uh a while ago we had a question on um on why is it that there's so many uh chefs who you know have philosophy degrees. And you know, I speculated maybe it's because uh, you know, uh chefs like useless degrees. I don't know, right?
+
+[56:39] I have a philosophy degree, um, you know, whatever, Wiley, I think Chang maybe even we said there's a whole bunch of people that have Chang's religion? Hilarious. Anyway, uh so Ken Ken had some uh Ken had some uh thoughts and I will share them with you on the way out. Uh Ken writes, I am not a chef, so let's be clear my answer is not from a chef's perspective. I am merely a home cook with an interest in the modernist approach and a degree in philosophy.
+
+[57:03] Uh although Ken, I guess putting it to good use, unlike unlike you know, me. Um I think the connection is that uh we philosophy majors are particularly interested in the essence of things. Julia Child first brought my generation the Platonic ideal of both French cooking and fine cooking. The long-standing movement back to ingredients and back to authentic styles of cooking relate to the essence of food. And I believe modernist cooking and its progeny start with the notion of the essence of food.
+
+[57:28] The works of chefs like Wiley are charming in both senses of that word because both chef and customer begin with an understanding of the essence of the food and launch from there. The food challenges both chef and customer as to what is the essence of food, the nature of food, and the platonic ideal of food. Maybe even God help me, the epistemology of food. Ken Ingber, cooking issues. Hey, what's up?
+
+[57:58] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[58:22] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family-run, eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit Rolling Press.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking is the questions to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:57] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming live in the back of uh Roberta's Peter here in Bushwig Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly twelve, now to roughly one, right, Jack? Yeah, exactly. We're rough over here. We're rough, we're rough.
+
+[1:10] Uh well, you know, when you're in a uh, you know, in an old container in the back of a pizzeria, you're you know, you're a little rough. Right? Right? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[1:18] Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and with uh a special guest who uh Jack, you want to explain the uh the contest here? Yes, John Sisson, I hope I pronounced the last name right. Uh he won an auction at just food to spend a day with me here at Heritage Radio Network. So he's sitting in for cooking issues. Yeah, nice, nice.
+
+[1:36] And uh John uh uh was a chef uh retired how long ago? Oh uh fifteen years ago now. Yeah, and uh where were you uh where were we shoving in for our I was at the old town bar on eighteenth street uh for about ten years. Nice, nice. How are you enjoying your day so far?
+
+[1:52] It's been great. Heard two or three shows and uh really enjoying it and uh loving the back of Robert is here. Yeah, yeah, it's nice. I mean, it's interesting seeing the people eating their well, I guess they're just now eating their lunch. You'll see some some weird folks.
+
+[2:05] I've had we have people doing their hair while looking at us, right? Like it's a one-way mirror. Very strange. Very odd stuff, odd business. Uh Dave, before we start the show, I have two big shout-outs.
+
+[2:15] John Riper, uh listener, and he submitted a few questions, made a very nice donation to Heritage Radio Network. So thank you, John. And today, Yeah Malka, and I hope I said that correctly, became a member of Heritage Radio Network.org as well. So cooking issues fans showing their support. Beautiful.
+
+[2:32] We have a question from both of them, and it is uh Yehuda from Silver Spring, Maryland. Give some give some love for Silver Spring. You ever been to Silver Spring, Maryland? My car broke down there once. Joe has.
+
+[2:43] Yeah, Joe, nice. Uh yeah, Joe as usual. And uh Nastasha, this is your first full week of having a Twitter account, so what do you think? Uh I like it. Yeah?
+
+[2:50] In fact, you're looking at it right now, or just texting Zappos. Is that the first time she said I like it on the program? Uh it might be. It might be. Uh speaking of, we have some uh we have some Nastasha related questions uh today.
+
+[3:02] Justin Bray went into uh into the Twitter and said, How did Nastasha get the nickname the Hammer? Well what what do you think? You gave it to me. Yeah, but what but I mean, like what's your interpretation? Um because I'm tough on people.
+
+[3:16] Why don't you tell them why you eat it? I don't know, because uh well, you know the the whole point is that look we we have this thing where I'm supposed to be nice to people other than her. And she is supposed to be mean to people. And see, this is the way most, you know, kind of business teams work, right? Where you have the one person who's always kind of you know friendly, right?
+
+[3:34] So they never appear to be the the jackass, right? And then you have the other one, the hammer, who basically is like, no, you all that stuff he said that you could have or that he was gonna do, he's not gonna do that, and you can't have it. She's supposed to do that, but it turns out, people, that she's actually only mean to me. That's so not true. Well, you're actually you're mean to other people.
+
+[3:52] Every time I try to be mean to people, you are not happy about it. And you're like, what are you doing? That's not that's not okay. Right. And and also she has all the subtlety, the fine subtlety of a hammer.
+
+[4:05] But no, but no, but also, you know, hammer, boom, strength. Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah, right.
+
+[4:10] What was the other one? Uh oh, the other one uh was uh I'm trying to find oh yes, from John Powers Kirk, uh must be to you, although you erased it and said, Can you tell Dave that you're smarter than him, but uh then with an emoticon afterwards, that kind of like also I would believe him, except he used the wrong your. See, I was gonna see, that's why she's the hammer. I was gonna leave that out. I was leaving that out of the equation.
+
+[4:37] Well, how do I take that seriously? Uh and well, and how do you use the name the hammer unless you bring it up? It's strong, Nastasha. I look Nastasha can do it. She can do what she likes.
+
+[4:47] She can do what she likes. Uh, but you know what? Like, uh that is the that is the occasional show of strength that makes me appreciate the uh the Lopez uh a little bit. Okay, call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[5:02] Let's go to the question we already have questions we already have from John Riper, new uh donor and member. Thank you. And uh as uh we said, I guess a couple of weeks ago, apples are better when picked riper, right? Wasn't that how it how it worked? Okay.
+
+[5:15] Deer cooking issues peeps. I often hear chefs say that roasting meat on the bone gives it more flavor. Is that true? Or is it the same kind of perceived wisdom uh as searing the meat to seal in the juices is when we're in and for those of you that oh my god, Indy Jesus is back on Tuesdays. Yes, I know, I know.
+
+[5:34] You know, I wish that everyone who could hear our voices could see the glory. The glory that is Indy Jesus. Listen to this back to the table. And we're not allowed to play uh other people's music anymore, but I need a little bit of what's the buzz, tell me what's happening going on. For your little Andrew Lloyd Weber action, maybe just for us to listen to during the break so that I can have some indie Jesus.
+
+[5:54] We'll credit them or whatever we need to do for the Yeah, I'm sorry, John, of that for the for the tangent here, but now I got into Indy Jesus on my mind. Okay. Uh so as we all know, uh searing the uh you know, searing the meat uh to seal in the juices is uh an old an old thing that uh chefs and cooks say that dates back to uh Justice von Liebig and it was uh this is one of Harold McGee's great uh kind of personal hangs his hat on this fact is that he was the first to call uh what's the what's the plate way of saying BS? Just horse hockey or whatever, yeah. The first to call crap on that.
+
+[6:28] Crap on searing. Uh and uh in fact, searing is just uh something that is uh makes incredibly delicious crust uh on a meat and has nothing to do with sealing in the juices, right? Okay. I mean, searing, still obviously good practice, just doesn't happen to seal in the juices. So back to the question.
+
+[6:43] Uh just so you know the background for John's question. Okay, uh I can see how the bones could affect the shape uh of a roast and influence heat transfer into the flesh, but I'm missing how a bone generates uh much flavor even to adjoining meat, let alone how a bone affects the flavor of roasted meat that's further away. Uh John, I think you're you're you're dead right here. I think uh what the bone is, is the bone is a a moderating, it's a moderating element uh from a heat transfer uh for standpoint. Uh also, I mean, I guess you can make an argument that the more you hack into a piece of meat to get rid of the bone, the more you spread it out and the less it's a whole piece of meat.
+
+[7:19] Uh but uh yeah, I I think it's mainly it's it's in terms of actually adding flavor, other than the fact that I love Louis Prima's song, The Closer to the Bone, the Sweeter is the Meat. The last slice of Virginia Ham is the best that you can eat. Uh, you know, aside from that, I don't think there's much to it from an actual uh flavor standpoint. And uh assuming equal cooking, uh, if you took a cube of meat that was far away from the bone or close to the bone, other than the inherent uh uh muscular differences between them, uh I don't think there'd be much difference in flavor. What do you think?
+
+[7:49] I agree. Yeah, see? Yeah, I mean it's a it's uh it's yeah, it's it's I mean, like, is that one of the things you still believe, Nastasha, in your in your kind of like, you know, panoply of uh the meat closer to the bone? Oh, you don't think about it, you don't get it. I don't care.
+
+[8:02] He's like, what does it have to do with Zappos? Nothing. Has nothing to do with Zappos, so I don't care. Uh by the way, the other uh thing I had back on you being smarter uh uh the smart one of the two, which I'm not denying, by the way, but my feeling I just get a secret feeling that John Powers Kirk is in fact just another biscuit hater like you. It's another hater of biscuits.
+
+[8:21] Um, I actually like questions like that. I mean, and I would love someone to call in and tell me I'm an idiot, moron, that in fact the bone really affects the flavor, but I don't think so. What? It's not gonna happen. Wait, oh, we're getting a picture of Indy Jesus and she's gonna tweet.
+
+[8:34] She's not gonna get a good one, though. It looks like the Messiah is delivering pizza. Look at that. Okay, well, tweet it out. I would just like to go on record and say Dante is a really great guy.
+
+[8:44] Before I do this, Jim. Wait a second. There's no denying that he's a uh uh I mean, like, would Indie Jesus make him a bad person? No, no, just in case listeners think we're po you know, that's what I'm trying to put it up there. Craig eye.
+
+[8:56] All right. I mean, I don't know the man other than that. I wish he would deliver me pizza. Oh, he might! He's working our station.
+
+[9:02] Oh, this is awesome. Okay. Uh Tom writes in. Hi, Joe, Joe, you get the call out first. Jack, Nastasha, and Dave, my family wants more bread than my wife and I can bake, and so she's wanting a bread machine.
+
+[9:13] But these are bulky and expensive for a grad student in a small apartment. I'd have trouble justifying the purchase if the machine only makes bread. Are there other uses for bread machines like low temperature baking, curing, sous vide, etc.? Alternately, uh, could I use some other device to bake bread? Uh and if it turns out you're a fan of bread machines, what's your favorite?
+
+[9:30] Thanks, Tom. Tom, I am not uh a fan of bread machines. Uh my grandpa had one, and and it was kind of sweet. He always used to bring over these like strange square loaves of bread with the bottom ripped out where the little mixing thing was in the bottom of the bread machine. Uh I I never was such a fan of my grandpa's loaves, and so I never developed a deep abiding love for uh bread machines.
+
+[9:53] I will say this. When I was an undergraduate, one of the ways I wooed my wife was I went to the uh thrift store and I bought you can't buy them that the old don't buy the old ones if you have a family because you know all of the insulation is made out of asbestos and the cords are made out of asbestos, and I'm sure they're fire hazards. But uh they used to sell these old things called uh turkey ovens because the idea was on Thanksgiving that you had uh very little oven space and you need to cook a bunch, so you would cook your turkey in this separate oven. And it amounts to a cross between a crock pot and an oven, and it looks like a giant Dutch oven with a plug coming out of it. Uh and turns out they get hot enough and they can make a passable uh loaf of bread.
+
+[10:31] You have to uh uh cut a special plate to fit into the bottom so you can pull it out in and out easily. But you can even uh put like a quarry tile into one if you knock the edges off the quarry tile and fit in. And they get hot enough to make a decent loaf of bread, and they're small, somewhat portable, cheap. Uh they can they can still be had at thrift shops if you want to dare the old uh plugs or rip the old plug off and put a new one on. And that's how I used to bake bread.
+
+[10:53] I was an idiot, moron, and I didn't go get a stone. I used to uh rip the backs off of notebooks, the cardboard backs off of notebooks, and bake my bread on noses my sheets. And yes, the bottom had a slight cardboardy taste, but I was 18. I was eighteen. Anyway, uh you're a fan of bread machines, uh, John there.
+
+[11:09] You ever use one? Um mostly for the dough only. Oh, because it's a good mixer of the dough? Use it for the mix and dough. And uh actually I'm a big fan of the uh no need recipe.
+
+[11:19] Oh, yeah, the uh Leahy No Need recipe. Yeah, and that's uh great with uh the steam that's generated in in a cast iron pot. Yeah, I mean, I think uh a lot of us nowadays uh a lot of us nowadays are are shifting towards the super long like whether or not you're a firm uh advocate, and we're talking about uh Leahy's uh book, uh what's it called? Bread My Way, uh and uh and also Bittman, who wrote a bunch of articles in the Times about it, and he kind of you know, and Stasha worked for him for like 25 seconds. Thirty seconds?
+
+[11:48] How long was it? I think a month. Oh, yeah. Anyway, so uh, you know, uh fabulous bread maker. I mean, I mean I've if anyone lived in New York prior to when Leahy opened Sullivan Street Bakery, like you know that when his bakery hit, we were all like, wow, that's good bread, right?
+
+[12:03] Right. We're all like, wow, that was good bread. It still is good bread. Uh but uh it's kind of a miracle in uh in kind of uh bread. I think it you know was a harbinger of a lot to come in the way of not that there wasn't good bread here in New York, there was good bread in here in New York, but I mean I think his style of bread uh was kind of new and we really in here and we I think everyone really appreciated it.
+
+[12:21] And his book uh made a lot of ways, and but I think in one of the reasons it becomes so popular is that in addition to his no-need uh kind of m uh recipe, which is seen as a low work and therefore American friendly way to do things, uh we're all all of us uh going to much longer, longer, longer rise times in our um in our in our bread baking uh when we have the time to do it. And so I think that most of us now, especially build into our our regimens if we're gonna bake, whether it's pizza or whether it's bread, uh, you know, we're more apt to plan uh a day or two in advance, and so we could do some of these longer. It's not that they take more physical time in the kitchen, it just takes more actual clock time for these things to happen. And so I see a big shift, and I think that's one of the reasons that's become popular. But I never thought of having one just to need the dough.
+
+[13:07] It's an interesting idea. Because you don't have to like mess with it like you do with it, because the kitchen aid makes a horrible mess when I'm quick and easy. Yeah. And hour and a half, you have dough, and then you can bake it off. Yeah, in your turkey roaster.
+
+[13:21] In your turkey roaster, some um you know, I bet you could probably get bread machines in the thrift store on the eBay too. Sure. Probably, right? I'm uh I'm a as anyone who's ever heard me before knows I'm a huge fan of the buying stuff cheap on eBay and then uh you know fixing it all with duct tape. Although Nastasha, our new year's resolution, no more duct tape.
+
+[13:37] Well no more ghetto. Yeah, no more, yeah, yeah, right. I mean, like we don't want to be the people whose box is is is stuck together with duct tape. We want a new box. Right?
+
+[13:45] Fair? Yes. Yeah, fair. Uh speaking of which, Nastasha, you know, we need to convince uh some company to let us test out a vacuum machine so we can shoot the cocktail book. Okay.
+
+[13:54] Anyone out there runs a vacuum mini? I happen to like the mini pack. We never got we were supposed to shoot a thing for minipack, and we never did it, right? I can follow up with that. Yeah, all right, all right.
+
+[14:00] Mini pack. Mini pack makes a good vacuum machine. You know, well, this is the all the vacuum machines work, it's just whether or not you like the people, like the programming and like the features. The mini pack, what I like about, and we're gonna talk about vacuum machines in a minute. What I like about the mini-pack, and I'm not saying that they should ship me one, but what I like about it is it has the it has a really good chamber size uh for the actual footprint of the vacuum, um, which to me is important because and to a lot of our listeners important because uh you know what you end up getting limited by in a vacuum machine is the chamber size of the of the vacuum.
+
+[14:29] Um, okay. Uh you think I answered Tom's question? Yes. Okay. I don't think they're uh accurate enough to do low temperature cooking, by the way, to go back to your other question, and they're not also meant for I think complete although they can take a merge.
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+[14:42] I'm sure the gasket in the bottom, they're probably built like a blender in that way. They could take a full thing of water. I you know, and look, theoretically, you could probably take a bread machine, uh PID control it with a with an external thing, like rip out the plug, put the heating element. I mean, because I've done that too, um you know the Wyatt steam table bass that uh you know we all use like the big electrics that it just click on and off, on and off. I modified one of those to do low temperature cooking once with a with a thermometer and a PID.
+
+[15:08] And you could do that with a bread machine, and you could probably even rip out the m you know, motor or slow it down somehow so that it could just stir uh and then put a grate over it so that you could throw bags into it, and you could theoretically hack the thing into a into a low temperature cooker. The problem is is that the I mean if you look at the loaf size, it's kind of like tall and loaf-shaped or round and loaf-shaped, I think. I think my grandpa's was square, but I think they're round most of them, right? Now, or they're square-shaped, the the vessel that they bake in. They're square, either a vertical square or the horizontal square like the traditional loaf, but uh the mixing doesn't work nearly as well.
+
+[15:42] No, I would go vertical if I was gonna get it. So would I yeah. But uh but the but the point being that uh it's not of a large volume for low temperature cooking, and so I think you'd have trouble, not from a power standpoint probably, but from a from a f um uh cooking area standpoint, uh converting it to a low temperature cooking machine. Anyway, okay, okay, okay. Uh now, here here's a here's a long one.
+
+[16:02] And I c this is uh from um uh Mark Krasnow writes in, who's moving from New Zealand to uh to Hyde Park, I guess I guess. Or not whether he's moving, he's gonna start teaching at the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park. And we're friends with some of the folks that by the way, I don't know whether we did we announce this last week that I'm a actually like the the French culinary or the International Culinary Center and and we have parted ways. I don't think you did. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:27] So uh just so everybody knows, uh my you know, long term tenure at uh, you know, w what what when I was hired was the French Culinary Institute. Like we're now no longer working together anymore, but we're all still very friendly. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[16:41] Anyway. So uh I am no longer the c uh director of culinary technology. But uh uh very proud of what we did there. We did a lot of excellent stuff and we wish them all the best. Okay.
+
+[16:53] Anyway, uh so if CIA wants to hire no, I'm just kidding, I'm just messing around. Uh I don't know, I don't have time. Uh well no I'm not time. Anyway. Uh so Mark Krasnow, I currently teach uh viticulture at the Eastern Institute of Technology in Napier, New Zealand.
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+[17:06] I wonder where that is. I wonder where Napier is. Do you know? No. No, no, I've I'm very bad with my New Zealand geography.
+
+[17:11] But uh love seeing a warrior princess. Okay. Uh I currently teach viticulture at the Eastern Institute of Technology in Napier, New Zealand, but we'll be heading to the States in May to start teaching uh the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park. I very much enjoy your show and I love the fact that you folks know your science. Thank you.
+
+[17:25] Uh a colleague of mine, Chef Mark Caves, has told me that he noticed the meats fully vacuumed for sous-vide cooking seemed more tender to him than those with less vacuum during sealing. We recently conducted an experiment to test this hypothesis using the gluteus medius muscle uh dissected from whole top sirloins. Triplicate sample uh samples were sealed at three different levels in an audio in an Audion vac uh VMS 53 sealer, and I which I I don't have any uh experience with that. But they were they were done at uh a medium vacuum and full vacuum at the lightest vacuum they could do. Now I'm not allowed to talk about any of the specifics of the paper because it's in review, so I won't do that.
+
+[18:00] I'll just talk about the other parts of it, which are uh important to me. Anyway, um of the pieces of information we needed uh to write up and publish the paper was the actual pressure uh experienced by the food at different sealing levels. I contacted the manufacturer, but they could give me no numbers as to the actual vacuum uh that would be affected by a pump uh strength because it was affected by the pump strength, age, uh size of stuff to be sealed, leaks, etc. What they did tell me was that the number on the dial does not correspond to the percent vacuum, but is rather the number of seconds that the pump runs. Therefore, I had to check the pressures on the dial of the machine in our kitchens during sealing.
+
+[18:35] What I found was surprising, at least to me. Full vacuum pressure, uh the dial set all the way, occurred at about 30 seconds, regardless of the setting uh on the dial, suggesting that the pump uh has only one speed and that full vacuum would actually be achieved uh at numero 30 on the 1299 setting, which is totally misleading in my opinion. Okay, first of all, let's let's just let me hit that before I go on, because it's a long type thing, and I want people to keep track of what's going on here. Older style vacuum machines, and we're talking about chamber sealing vacuum machines that we use to seal foods in bags, typically for uh for uh low temperature cooking, or if you go into a supermarket and you're buying meats that are cryo bagged or whatever, all right? Vacuum sealing.
+
+[19:13] Older style vacuum pumps uh have a uh timer in them, and they run their pumps for a certain length of time. After that length of time, uh they uh seal the bag, let the air come back in, and it's done. Newer style uh vacuum, and for those ones, literally it's just a timer on it, and so you're just setting it for a length of time. Uh newer style vacuum machines have in them uh vacuum sensors that are actually sensing the level of vacuum that's being stored. They are still, however, not accurate as to what is being experienced by the food in the bag.
+
+[19:45] They are accurate about what the vacuum level happens to be right where the sensor is. Now, how can those be different, right? Like they seems like vacuum should be the same everywhere. And on an instantaneous basis, that's true. However, uh many of our foods have trapped air on the inside of them.
+
+[20:03] Leafy greens have lots of air on the inside of them. Anything with bones, there's lots of air on the inside of a bone. Uh and so many of our foods have trapped air. And you know, one of the biggest uh demos that we used to do for uh low temp sous vide at the at the French culinary in our in our in our classes, and I think we've done it at the Harvard lecture, is you throw a marshmallow into a vacuum machine and the marshmallow expands. And everyone's like, oh, that's cool, the marshmallow expands because the air on the inside's expanding and and it can't get out.
+
+[20:29] What's interesting about the marshmallow experiment isn't that they get big, it's that they start shrinking again about uh 10 to 15 seconds after you start sucking the vacuum. And what that tells you is is that the air inside the marshmallow is slowly leaking out. And and what that means is that the eventual pressure that your food will, partial pressure of oxygen in an atmosphere that your food will feel on the inside of the bag is dependent on how much of the trapped air that you get out of that food, and that is not measurable by a gauge on the inside of your vacuum machine. Now, in your experiment where you're using presumably whole muscle cuts without uh a lot of slices in them that are not all jammed together in a bunch of different pieces and there's no bones in it, right? Then you can start making assumptions like whatever the gauge is telling you is fairly accurate.
+
+[21:18] But here's another point, right? So the gauges in a typical vacuum machine uh that have analog gauges are horribly inaccurate and horribly inaccurate. And especially when you get into the range of interest, which is where you evacuated over 90 to 90 and change percent of the air that's available in there. Those gauges are because there's much less for them to measure than there is for them to measure at full pressure. So they're horribly inaccurate in those in those ranges.
+
+[21:46] And so it's difficult, not impossible, but difficult to gauge with an analog gauge exactly what's going on with the machine with one of these machines. Now you could put a fairly accurate digital gauge in there and measure it, but again, it's not necessarily going to be indicative of what a customer or a user is going to experience on the piece of meat when they're doing it. Uh another thing is that I don't like that some machines measure in percent vacuum. Percent vacuum is a horribly imprecise uh term, even in the imprecise world of measuring the vacuum on the inside of a vacuum machine, because the closer you get to a hundred percent vacuum, right, the more widely variant uh the actual numbers that they're measuring are in terms of millibar. So it's it's difficult uh to measure that way.
+
+[22:31] Uh so instead, I like uh ones that measure in millibar. Here's another thing that true that a lot of companies won't tell you unless you ask them. Some companies that have gauges on the inside of their vacuum machine will actually measure the pressure up to a certain level and then just throw on a timer. They're like, so you know, the old mini packs work that way. They'll actually measure the vacuum level up to about ninety uh ninety-eight percent.
+
+[22:52] And then after it's at ninety-eight percent vacuum, it just starts counting off a timer. And you know how I know this? Because I defeated the machine, stuck my finger against the vacuum thing, let it go up to 98%, released my uh thumb so that air was streaming through the machine at atmospheric pressure, and watch the numbers keep taking on up to 99.9% vacuum. This is how I test these kinds of things because back then I had more time than good sense on my hands. Uh so anyway, so that's how it works.
+
+[23:18] Okay. Uh so back to back to your question, or back to your uh what you discovered. It says we found large and statistically significant differences in the century sensory parameters between the medium and high vacuum levels when compared with the minimal vac uh minimal vacuum levels, but very few differences between the medium and high vacuum samples experience the same pressure. Um this suggests that more time at full vacuum has diminishing returns as far as improvement of sensory properties in a relatively non-porous food like muscle foods. Um and and then you're I have a lot of comments on that, but I'm gonna wait for a second.
+
+[23:51] Your question after that is is this mode of action typical of vacuum sealers, or do most actually have settings that correspond to the actual pressure in the ceiling chamber? Uh I'm suspecting that my vacuum machine is rather old and not exactly top of the line, and that newer ones might be more adjustable. Uh I figured you guys being experts on the equipment side of things might be able to help me out with this question. I think it would be very interesting to redo this study with uh an actual measured half vacuum around 50 uh 500 KPA. Although I only think in millibars, which is millibars like 1065, 1065 millibars is atmospheric normal, like standard atmospheric pressure, and zero is full vacuum.
+
+[24:25] So anyone that wants to discuss in a way that I understand has to go in millibars or my brain just goes, you know there's only so much I can keep track of, people. Okay. Uh back to your other statement. I uh I actually believe exactly the opposite of what uh your paper um uh what you what you're suggesting. In other words, I think that the higher vacuums actually decrease the quality of uh the foods.
+
+[24:44] Okay. And what you're saying is extremely interesting because and I and you know it we haven't done it in a controlled way, the way you have, but we've done it uh in over many iterations of the sous vide low temperature uh class that we've taught. And what's very interesting is is that it is that the likes and dislikes, because you're talking in your thing, tenderness and juiciness, which are terms that are so loaded that I hate I hate using them. And and the actual whether you like it or not splits kind of down the line, where some people really like the low temperature, uh low vacuum uh pack samples. In fact, Ziplocks I think are the ideal for those people.
+
+[25:30] I'm in those people. And then uh you have the camp that seems to like the higher vacuum one, and uh whole muscle red meat cuts are the least affected by the vacuum level in terms of uh sensory perception. Uh chicken and fish, like salmon are the ones that are kind of uh affected the most. Here is the deal. When you and this is why tenderness and and uh and juiciness aren't necessarily good indicators.
+
+[25:58] When you chew into something that's cooked at a uh that's bagged and cooked at a high vacuum level, it explodes with uh juice in your mouth, and then in my feeling turns to mush because it almost has a fibery characteristic that you don't necessarily get at the lower vacuum levels. So in the people that like that, it's that's perceived as being juicy because you get this explosion of juice, and is tender because it's soft. For me, it is lack of structure. And and when the more you chew, the the first three bites, first three chews rather, are extremely filled with juice, but the last three chews are kind of dry and pulpy. So to me, I like the quality better at much lower vacuum levels.
+
+[26:42] So it's it's difficult to equate like statistic like actual statistically measurable things like how much juice is expressed, or how much uh force it takes to drive a you know uh a probe through a piece of meat. Much harder to do uh uh much easier to do that than to actually say, well, which one's better and which one's worse. What do you think says? Good job. Okay.
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+[27:03] Uh and with that, let's go to our first commercial break, cooking issues. This is Fish's Fish is vodka by the meatballers. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service. Founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father, Cam Lee. Rolling Press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology.
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+[28:29] Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks. Uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical-free production process. For more information, visit rolling press.com. And welcome back. Calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[28:45] That's 7184972128. What do you like better? The crazy or the or the mellow? You like the mellow? Yeah.
+
+[28:50] Yeah? All right. Uh this is from Yehudo just became a member. Thanks, Yehuda. Uh, in Silver Spring, Maryland.
+
+[28:59] I don't like that applause in Red Jack because they're they're really tentative about starting it up. I agree. So you can get one where like people are right into it, right? Or like the one clap starts. Like like the like the like the one like the the sarcastic one.
+
+[29:18] That one? Yeah. Yeah. Or just get like there, baby. Get the old bronze.
+
+[29:23] You know, the old bronx, like the give him a raspberry, like wah wah. Yeah. Anyway, no. Switch it up, Jack. Nastasha, like, you know what?
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+[29:32] She's trying to live up now. Now that someone asks why she's called the hammer, she's trying to live up. She's dishing out. Always been so nice to me, and now now I know. By the way, Jack, did you get the date for Valentine's Day or what?
+
+[29:42] I went dateless on Valentine's Day. Oh man. Do you have a pity party machine in there? Like a little sound effect board for that? No.
+
+[29:51] Aww. That was you. Nice. Alright, beautiful. Uh yeah, so what'd you guys do for the Valentine's Day?
+
+[29:56] I hope Ben cooked a uh a good uh dinner for Anjali there. I don't know whether I gave him good advice or not. I haven't heard back yet, which means I probably didn't, and now he's a hater. Right? Right?
+
+[30:09] What did you do, Dave? I went to Del Posto, Nastasia. Where so I know that you weren't with your date on Valentine's Day because he was serving me dinner. Excellent dinner at Del Posto. Uh uh, as usual.
+
+[30:23] Uh anytime Dave can dread it ruin my happiness, he does. Oh yeah, because Mark was gonna be home with you that day. No, he was supposed to be home earlier. It is true. Oh, you know, this is such a loto horse hockey.
+
+[30:35] That's true. This is so crazy. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, from him that says Dave is still here. I'm not gonna be back by 11.
+
+[30:41] It wasn't Anthony Wiener two tables over from me. It wasn't Anthony Wiener, two tables over from me. That was the reason that they had a big scroll, and it wasn't. It was a guy that he knows and sees every week sitting at a table, you know, who's like a known that I like his food, like he has to worry about me and stay at the restaurant. That was his excuse.
+
+[30:57] Please. Oh, well, fair, fair. You know, I'll take that hit. I'll take that hit from Mark. Tell him about Brooks' cookies.
+
+[31:03] Oh, yeah. So Brooks, uh, you know, look, Brooks, uh, who also signed on in Norton, congratulations, he got a book deal. I'm sure he will actually deliver his book on time. Oh, and this they give him to give him Brooks the Brooks, one of my favorite ones. Yeah, he would actually, being uh, you know, a punk rock musician.
+
+[31:17] But you know, I I really appreciate his pastries. So here's what he did. So Del Posto, you know, uh what do they got? They got like eight million stars in New York Times or something like that. And uh uh so you know you're eating in a relatively formal environment, right?
+
+[31:31] It's probably the most formal Italian uh Italian-based restaurant in the city, is that true? Or like Maria, to you know. There was a as formal? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[31:39] Okay. Anyway, formal. And so Brooks comes out and it's it's my anniversary, like I said, of going out with uh of uh dating my wife. Uh you know, our relationship is 21 years old now and can drink. Uh and uh so he comes out and literally like takes these cookies, it puts all these like beautiful plated things on the table, and then throws cookies at the like explodes cookies at the table, such that I'm almost positive that some cookie shards hit Anthony Wiener in the head.
+
+[32:06] Actually, that's not true. He was like three tables over. I was like, Anthony Wiener. Anyway, uh so uh yeah, so shattered these cookies and kind of broke the formal, which I kind of liked. You've had that presentation, right?
+
+[32:16] No, I haven't, I've just heard about it. And people like it. Because they're not expecting it. First of all, Del Posto, like Del Posto, the guy can't use a crumb scraper. The guy comes out with like uh a napkin folded up between two spoons, which means it takes him 18 freaking years to scrape the crumbs off of your table.
+
+[32:33] You know what I'm talking about. Like Jen dropped a little spot of wine and they brought out the extra tablecloth that covered the one spot of wine. I hate when that happens. I yeah, here's the thing. For all the like, I understand that's part of the formal code, but you're probably making my wife feel worse that you had to bring out a bib for the table than the little spot of wine.
+
+[32:50] Yeah, yeah. If you spilled it, then cover it. But you know, whatever. But whatever, I like it. But my wife was like, Man, I'm messy.
+
+[32:56] I'm like, yeah, you are, because normally I'm the extremely messy one, let's be honest. Anyway, so like there's all this formality, and then Brooks comes out and explodes cookies on the table, and you're like, What? And then you eat the cookies. His stuff's good. Yeah.
+
+[33:07] Oh, yeah, great for him. I'll like all props. Props, props, okay. Uh Dave and the uh Dave uh and crew, because it dis you know didn't want to get in trouble with the with the no joe, so instead of just say you know saying it all out, just said and crew. Hey, crew.
+
+[33:20] How are you doing? Anyway, this is Yahuda. Uh, I'm currently transitioning between careers. I've been working as a high school teacher for the past seven years, and I'm now uh back in school for something totally different. While I was still teaching, a friend and I separ uh separately yet simultaneously began teaching ourselves how to be better cooks, mostly via a process of experimenting with recipes and techniques that seem beyond our skill set while also focusing on fundamentals of culinary knowledge.
+
+[33:42] Joined by a mutual love for cooking, especially uh for others. I guess cooking for others, that means nothing. Who likes cooking for themselves, really? Do you like cooking for yourself, Don? I do, actually.
+
+[33:50] Really? I'm thrifty and uh it saves a lot of money. Oh, that's true. But I mean, like, you know, whenever my wife's on vacation, I just make poached eggs. Like if my kids aren't around, like if I'm alone, it's just like poached eggs.
+
+[34:01] And not even like, you know, maybe it's because my wife doesn't like poached eggs, but I like I'll sit and like put poached eggs. Weird. Post eggs toast is toast on sauerkraut, always. So you just eat poached eggs, toast and sauerkraut. That's it.
+
+[34:13] And weird. I don't know. I'm a weirdo, I'll forget about it. Okay. Okay.
+
+[34:16] Uh, especially for others. Uh, we started a small catering outfit. We have done in-home multi-course dinners as a hobby/slash side business, interpreting dishes from the books uh from books like uh the French Laundry, which by the way, that you know, people forget how like uh revolutionary the French laundry cookbook was back when it came out, the original French laundry cookbook, like in in English for America, yeah, the giant one. Yeah. Uh uh in English for uh people at home, like there were very f i in American English anyway, very few books prior to that that were literally uh what was going on in the recipes of uh, you know, at that time, probably the top kitchen in the entire uh country and not at all dumbed down.
+
+[34:58] Like you had to get the anchovies, you had to bone the anchovies, you had to soak the anchovies in milk. Then you had to, you know, rub the anchovies, you know what I mean? It's like every and it was uh all the steps. And so I think people tend to forget uh you know how kind of how groundbreaking that was. Anyway.
+
+[35:13] Alinea, uh, also excellent, interesting book, uh, published book, you know, Grant almost, I guess, self-publishing that or get or doing it himself and then getting it published. Right. I mean, I think he did a lot of not in the way that uh Mirabol did anyway, whatever. Monas Cuisine, everyone knows greatest cookbook achievement of all times. Uh, and others for kosher uh dinners uh who would otherwise uh diners who would never otherwise get the chance to try the kinds of foods found in those books in those restaurants.
+
+[35:38] We are still learning, isn't everyone, hopefully, and that's that's so true. If the the day you stop learning, hopefully you don't stop learning until you die. And hopefully you die only a long time from now. Okay. Uh, and love your show.
+
+[35:49] Both of us had questions answered last week. I'm now working during the day managing the kitchen of a different business while attending college at night, which brings me to my current list of questions. Neither of us has the time or money to attend culinary school. Well, I can to an extent teach myself to cook better by the very act of cooking more, making mistakes, and trying again. I know that I can never effectively run a busy restaurant kitchen.
+
+[36:10] Is that organization and efficiency taught mostly in school or on the job? What would you recommend I do to build these skills on my own? Well, it's very well, you can learn to cook on your own, uh, but it's very difficult to build the actual skills of working in a restaurant when you say on your own, literally on your own. Uh I mean, working in a restaurant can build those skills, or going to culinary can build those skills. I mean, I think one one of the one of the reasons to go to culinary school, and you know, uh Dave Chang, uh, you know, my my part my business partner is uh, you know, he's he's anti anti-evything now.
+
+[36:48] Dave Chang is mainly anti-the idea that a whole young generation of cooks goes to cooking school and uh I'm paraphrasing him now, but they go to cooking school and then they think that uh all of a sudden they're gonna become a celebrity chef and get rich and then not have to work the hours on the line. And that's not true. And somehow people think that cooking is uh is somehow glamorous when in fact it's it's grueling. Uh uh back me up on this, John. Certainly is.
+
+[37:13] Yeah. Uh so and this might be interesting for you as well as a professional to you know weigh in on this. Um but I think school can serve a function for someone who is a career changer who just wants who has the money, right, and just wants to jump in, and your goal isn't to be a line cook for five years and then do XY and G. Your goal is to be an owner sooner rather than later, and to never spend all that time on the line. Maybe going to cooking school is a is a good bet for you.
+
+[37:43] Or as a parent buying uh, you know, a younger kid a career. I see it as it can be a valuable uh val valuable thing that way. Uh now they a lot of the chefs that um I'm friends with who spend a lot of time saying that you don't need to go to culinary school. The interesting thing about them is that to a person they've all gone to culinary school. Uh in in the generation I'm talking about now, which is you know, uh 25 let's say 25 to 42, that age range.
+
+[38:10] Like most of these people who are really successful actually have gone to culinary school. I think in the generation just above them, you have a lot of success stories that haven't, who just came up through normal kind of an apprenticeship uh situation. Uh but really in that age range, most of the high flyers that I know of uh did go to culinary school. Um but uh you know that said, every cook on earth respects someone who just shows up in a kitchen and says, I will do whatever, I will work as hard as I can, all I want to do is work. I know nothing, you know everything.
+
+[38:41] Let me learn your way. If you do that, walk into a kitchen, very few people will turn you away. Some people might say, I don't have room for you now, but if you use those exact words, they'll say, I have a slot coming up in X amount of months. Uh especially if you come recommended from someone, like you can find someone that you will will vouch for you that you're a hard worker and you just show up, but you have to be willing to eat crap. I mean, really, not literally, but you know, figuratively, you know, you you have right, John?
+
+[39:08] I mean, this is how this works. Yeah. Long hours on your feet and uh takes endurance. Yeah, and you know, yeah, you know, those Brussels sprouts, after the first couple of cases, it's not fun anymore. Right?
+
+[39:22] And you still have to do them, right? I mean, and uh so anyway, so yes, you you know you can learn uh you can learn to be one of the world's greatest cooks uh, you know, on your own through reading, uh, and you know, but in terms of working in a in a restaurant, I think culinary school or actual working in a restaurant is uh, you know, kind of kind of necessary. It's a different skill. Cooking and and running a kitchen and a crew aren't necessarily the same skill. They're intertwined, but they're not the same skill.
+
+[39:52] I mean, I know plenty of people who are great cooks. Like, I don't want to run a kitchen, I can't run a kitchen. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I'm I'm I think I'm a good cook. Uh I don't think I'm uh necessarily be great at running a kitchen.
+
+[40:01] You know what I mean? Uh okay. Uh second question for you or any chefs who might be listening or in fact sitting sitting with us right now. Uh have you or would you think what I said before makes sense? Okay.
+
+[40:12] Uh have you or anyone you know ever worked in a kitchen that wasn't up to your own personal standards but felt stuck there due to a lack of better uh options? As an example, I work somewhere that advertised fresh fish and pasta, but sold four-day old fish and cooked their pasta in lukewarm water. How does one put up with that kind of frustration and is it a common occurrence? Yeah, people are bad. Cooks are bad.
+
+[40:34] Most most people are bad at what they do. The better you get at whatever you do in life, whatever you do in life, I don't care what it is, whether you're scientist, writer, jockey, whatever. Like it turns out that most people, no matter what they choose to do at a profession, are bad at it because they don't care. It's just because they don't care. And so there's a lot of people who are very bad, uh very bad cooks and they they do very bad things to the food or just not as good at things to the food.
+
+[41:01] So I don't know how to deal with that frustration. If the person, if you're learning something valuable, then learn what's valuable and don't get poisoned by the other bad things that are going on, be my suggestion. If it's so bad that you feel that you that you can't in good conscience uh serve the food that you're working on to people you have to leave. What do you think, John? I agree with that.
+
+[41:21] Yeah. I mean, it's tough, right? I mean, a lot of bad cooking goes on, a lot of things that you disagree with. You gotta be true to yourself and your own standards. And if the restaurant doesn't meet it, it's time to move on.
+
+[41:32] Right. If you're no longer proud of what you're working on, you have to go. You know what I mean? So, I mean, there's a fine line, and I think what I'm reading into what you're saying is is that you maybe you made a commitment to uh a place or uh to a person or to yourself that you were gonna hold on to a job for a particular length of time. Uh and that's also important.
+
+[41:51] It's important to hold to those commitments uh in in in life and to people that you're working with so that you can prove that you can have stick tutorness and not be flighty. So it can be a difficult decision to make. So uh it's not something to to quit a job isn't necessarily to be taken lightly. Uh especially in the in this business, someone who flits around a lot is not seen as being reliable necessary uh, you know, if they know your complete work history and if you're moving around. If you have a different job every every you know every month, people are going to well, why can't why don't why don't you want to stay in one place?
+
+[42:20] What's going on here? You know what I mean? The exception being some of the very, very high end restaurants that nowadays it's popular for people to go around to the very high end restaurants and collect stodges in them so that they can say that they've worked in them. And that's a separate thing and I think everyone knows and kind of respects what's going on there. But if you're not holding down uh um the same job for more than a month in a row, people are going to start asking you why.
+
+[42:40] Uh and so you have to weigh in your heart whether or not uh the commitment you made either to that restaurant or to yourself is uh you know weigh it against the fact that you're not proud of what you're putting out there. Uh and if you're not proud of what you're putting out there figure out a way to get out of it as fast and as cleanly as possible I think. But you should always be proud of what you're working on or you know because all you have is your output. You know all you have is is what you do and and trying to do the best job that you can do at all times. That's all you have.
+
+[43:10] What else is there? Okay. Finally, and thanks for letting me take up so much of your time is there any good way to keep leftover fried chicken crispy assuming fried temperatures are all spot on and as much oil as possible is removed post-fry. Would silica packs uh work to absorb excess moisture or does the coating become soggy not due to moisture in the air but from oil seeping out of the meat back into the crust uh and thanks uh for being a great resource and for your time okay uh it's not the oil it's uh moisture uh so there's a number of things first of all the question is when you say keeping fried chicken I'm assuming that you don't mean putting fried chicken in the fridge and then taking the fried chicken out later. I'm assuming hot holding fried chicken after frying for service in a catering environment.
+
+[43:53] That's what I'm that's what I'm taking it, because there is no way that I know of to uh short of under frying and then re-frying for service a cold thing, and it's still never a hundred percent. You know what I'm saying? Uh I'm I'm gonna assume that you don't mean a reheat off of something it's done, right? So that's a separate question, and we could talk about that later if you write back, and that's what you're interested in. Hot holding fried chicken, uh, your enemy isn't oil.
+
+[44:18] I mean, initially your enemy is oil, but the the way the oil uh uptake works in in frying is this. Uh you fry something, uh, and the oil is primarily on the outside, although there is some seepage into the crust, uh, even initially, and that seepage is related to a number of things. The temperature of your frying, the temperature of the batter when it went in, uh, how porous the batter is, and what the batter is made of, and whether you have any barriers in there like methyl cell, but no one hardly ever does, or crisp coat or some other starch that anyway, there's a number of factors. But uh most of the oil that's absorbed by the product is actually absorbed when you pull it out. And what happens is is that uh as you're frying, you're seeing boiling water, and the boiling water is rushing out, forming the steam and the violent bubbling that you see in frying, which is why a high temperature is important, so that you're constantly having boiling happen during the thing.
+
+[45:03] Uh that boiling out of water forms uh voids, steam and air pockets in your crust and in the surface of your food, right? And as uh the food cools down, oil is absorbed into those voids. As the steam uh vapor uh contracts, turns back to moisture, and there's these voids, the oil is absorbed in. So your opportunity to get oil off the surface of the food is only during the portion where the food is coming right out of the oil and when it's hot, which is why good fry practice is to pull the baskets out of the fryer, let them drip just so you don't spray oil everywhere, and then give it those violent couple of clack, clack, clack, or not violent, you don't want to hurt the product, but whatever the product can withstand, you give it some some some pan. I'm doing that saute motion, you know, that like twit that flip flipping motion, not flipping, it's hard for me to describe, but you you shake the basket a bit and you tilt the basket up on its corner so that all the grease comes out and all drips off the thing in the basket.
+
+[46:00] Yeah, you know, get it sometimes you can get it in the air, it depends on how fragile the product is, and get that oil off right away because as soon as it starts cooling down, you've lost your opportunity. So uh that's where oil absorption works in. But crust sogginess isn't due greasiness is due to having excess grease in the in the battery and as it cools, you'll notice the greasiness becomes more apparent, right? It's not that they're right there that the crust is changing, it's that greasiness becomes more apparent as it cools. Especially when things get actually cold and you've used a hydrogenated fat, a solid fat, you'll get greasy mouthfeel in what you're in what you're eating.
+
+[46:36] This is necessary for foods like donuts. So a hot donut fried in regular oil is gonna taste good because all hot donuts taste good. All hot fried things taste good. Even bad hot fried things taste okay when they're hot. But as it cools, uh a donut fried in liquid fat will taste greasy, whereas a donut fried in hydrogenated fat will taste like a donut, because it's supposed to be a little solid like that.
+
+[46:57] Whereas a potato chip fried in a solid fat will taste like kind of slick waxy uh in a bad way if you if you fry it in uh and it cools down, right? Which is why they had problems with OLESTRE because in order to get olestra to not run through your system and out onto your underwear without any intervention, they had to use hydrogenated olestra on potato chips. This is a wow, by the way, for those of you that don't remember OLEST. And when they did that, they altered the mouthfeel of the potato chips. That was the reason people could taste the difference in Olestra potato chips, not because olestra itself had a bad taste.
+
+[47:29] So back to your problem. So when something cools down or is held for a long time, oil can become a problem that way. Also, it's easier to detect flawed oil when the stuff starts cooling down a little bit or when it's been sitting around. The best test for flawed oil, and that when you're frying, is to always keep a cube of bread near where you're working and periodically fry a piece of plain white, like airy, non-crusty bread, flavorless bread in the oil. Why?
+
+[47:57] Because the bread's going to cool off fast, you can eat it fast, bread's going to absorb a boatload of oil, and you will be tasting primarily the state of your oil at any given time. So you you should always, like when you're using a fryer or anything, and you have any questions, uh dipping your finger and tasting the oil if it's cold is fine, but it a really good test is frying a piece of bread in it. Okay, now, uh so the real enemy to a crust on hot on hot holding is moisture migration from the food into the crust. Especially if you're packing things closely together. Uh you're gonna basically re-steam the crust, the crust is gonna lose its crispiness, and that's where you're gonna get a lot of your losses.
+
+[48:34] If you want to get around that, especially in a catering environment, I recommend you move to a piece of technology called a CVAP oven. Uh, even though all of my friends at CVAP have since moved on to other things because uh Winston, the owner of the company, who's the guy who was friends with Colonel Sanders and invented the pressure fryer uh and invented the hot holder for Kentucky fried chicken. Literally, this is a piece of equipment, the CVAP oven and the CVAP holding oven that was invented for your problem to keep fried chicken crispy. Uh what it does is it has a Bane Marie in the bottom of it that supplies a certain amount of moisture, and then it has a heating element in the cavity. And by adjusting the temperature differential between the heating element in the cavity and the Bane Marie, they can adjust the humidity of the oven and they can uh what they say is they adjust the I'm making quote marks with my fingers, the crispiness level of the food.
+
+[49:23] Uh and uh although it sounds hokey and to reading his documents online, it does sound hokey. Crap works. I've seen it many times. I've seen them hold Kentucky fried chicken in it for hours on end without uh bringing the inside horribly overcooked and um without losing the surface of it. I've seen them hold uh crispy fried tortilla chips in it just as a demo uh to prove that they could do it.
+
+[49:43] So uh CVAP oven is your way to go on that. Uh I don't know if their patents have run out, uh otherwise I would think of a way to hack one on my own, but they're relatively inexpensive compared to something like a combi oven. Anyway, uh I hope that's helpful, and uh they're gonna kick me off here. But on the way out, I want to say that uh the guys that by the way, you you uh UC USC, right? Use the Mary of Southern California, they're the ones that you always make wisecracks about.
+
+[50:05] Well, someone there and at UCLA, they're developing a pill, uh, and you can look this up online that you can take it, uh, and it's a really new, interesting uh combination of nanotechnology and enzymes where they're packaging multiple enzymes in like a little nanoparticle that you swallow, and it wipes out the alcohol. So it's literally a buzzkill pill. So you can go out drinking, and then before you get in your car, you can pop this buzzkill pill, and it just it's like having like five livers. Anyway, I'm uh I can't wait. It's gonna make it awesome.
+
+[50:36] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org.
+
+[51:06] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Peter here in Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[1:15] How are you doing, Nastasha? Great. Yeah, doing well. Jack and Joe over there. I actually punched myself in the head during the intro.
+
+[1:22] Yes, I'm a little stunned. Wow. Yeah. I was just gonna say, after two cups of coffee, that intro song is even crazier. Oh, you only you're only a two-cup in the morning, man?
+
+[1:30] I'm only two, yeah. Jesus And you call yourself a New York. See, that's what's laid-back life here in uh in Brooklyn only requires two cups of coffee. You know, Nastasha and I, you know, being residents of the island of Manhattan, we require three. Uh uh.
+
+[1:45] So uh by by the way, speaking of uh of Joel, is uh is he coming in next week or what? Yeah, man, uh he is. It's gonna be a blast. So next week we're gonna have live performance of the cooking issues song. Is that true or false?
+
+[1:58] That is true. You know, why don't I re why don't I read the email he sent us? Alright, do that. Let's see. So greetings, Joe and everyone else.
+
+[2:08] I would like to formally commit to appear live on your program entitled Issues with Cooking on Tuesday, March 5th as a guest musician. My assistant will submit my rider to you soon. It includes a variety of single malt scotches and dried figs. As a plus, you'll be graced with the presence of my wife. I think her and Nastasia will get along nicely due to their joint hatred of most things in existence and obsession with shopping for shoes online.
+
+[2:30] Oh yeah! And much like Nastasia's admitted during last week's episode, my wife also dislikes my thrashabout ways of the long running musical introduction, cooking intro, cooking issues intro, and she would much prefer if I either shut up or play something nice. I look forward to seeing the inside walls of your famous shipping container. Good day to you and enjoy the meats of Heritage Breed. Nice.
+
+[2:50] Nice exciting, huh? Yes. Speaking of the meats of Heritage Breeds, we also have uh we have a lot of non cooking related stuff they have beginning this time, huh? Yeah, yeah. Uh we have a contest, contest contest.
+
+[3:01] Become a household member of Heritage Radio Network for $120 to get a free t shirt and the chance to have lunch with Dave and the Cooking Issues team. Visit Heritage Radio Network dot org and click donate. Contest ends March 1st. Is that true? That is true.
+
+[3:16] Yeah. That's Friday. That's all true. So it's not a long time. No, this is like a a last minute rush to to close out February.
+
+[3:24] Hell, you know, I might I might I might enter the contest to get a chance to eat lunch with myself. It's a pretty good spot to be in. Yeah, and I was like, I would be there. Oh, but speaking of which, we have uh is this your cookbook here, uh Jack? The Foothills Cuisine of Blackberry Farm?
+
+[3:39] Uh it's not mine, but it's the stations. Because there's a there's a hint on the cover, which is it's almost ramp season, people. It's almost ramp season. Everyone knows Nastashia loves ramps. I hate them.
+
+[3:50] You know why she hates ramps? It's not because they're not delicious, because they are. It's just because everyone else likes them. That's why she hates them. It's true.
+
+[3:58] Yeah. Nice. All right. A little bit I like to have a little bit of Anastasia lore in each uh in each episode. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:06] Lore. Lore. Lore. Okay. Uh calling questions to 7184972128.
+
+[4:11] That's 7184972128. Have this question in from Mark Barter about wondra flower. Big hi to Nastasha, Jack, Joe, and Dave. 116 episodes and still going strong. That's true.
+
+[4:22] Well, kind of. Uh okay, Dave. Uh, you managed to shed some light on the enigmatic oil solidifying Katamaro Tenpuro. Not enough light. I mean, I wish I could actually get the product here in the United States of America.
+
+[4:33] Anyway, now I've got a new mystery for you. Can you enlighten the dear listeners uh on the secrets of Wondra? Uh, you know, but okay, well, I'll read the whole question. I'll try to uh maybe I should try to not have tangents while I'm while the thing's going on. You think so?
+
+[4:45] I don't know. I can't. I just can't, I can't. Too uh I can't do it. Anyway.
+
+[4:48] Uh I understand why Wonder is great for making gravies, but why is it supposed to be so good as a fry coating or for making pie pastry? If it's described as a pre-gelatinized or instant wheat flour, does that mean that it is simply a retrograded starch? Or is it the very opposite a prograded starch? I like pro, not pro-grade, but like pro professionally graded. Anyway, uh because it is a mechanically modified starch rather than a chemically modified starch, could I realistically make my own wondra by taking a low protein cake flour and hydrating, uh heating it, uh to which temp uh to what temperature, uh, Shirley, you have a uh, you know, he's basically saying I have a uh visal I can never pronounce it, visco amilligraph, and I don't have one.
+
+[5:24] Anyway, uh uh drying it after you cook it and pulverizing it, uh is diastatic malt flour critical component. And finally, I haven't been able to find a retail equivalent to wondra here in Australia. Should I look instead for an Asian African Middle Eastern equivalent? Until next time, Mark Butter. Okay.
+
+[5:40] So for those of you that uh aren't hip to the wondra, uh what wondra is is a it's a wheat flour, so you gluten folks can't can't mean anti-gluten folks can't use it like Piper. Uh that's so weird. Anyway, uh what it is is it's it's two things. It's pre-gelatinized, meaning it's already been cooked, right? But it hasn't just been milled down to a powder.
+
+[6:03] So you can't just use a pre-milled uh uh powder, it's also agglomerated, right? So the two key things about wondra is that it is pre-gelatinized and agglomerated. Now I want you to keep that in your head because we have a caller and I'm gonna take the college question and then come back to Wondra. Collar, you're on the air. Hey, I've got a question about country hams.
+
+[6:23] Oh, I love questions about country hams. Excellent. So I know you're a big fan of country hams uncooked. Yep. And I was lucky enough to be in Louville a week or two ago and picked up a ham at Finchville Farms on my way back.
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+[6:39] Uh first of all, great place. Uh visited uh them uh great, great place, good ham. I'm hoping. Yeah. It's hanging in my basement and with just two people in the house, a big ham is gonna last a long time.
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+[6:53] Yes. So there's a lot of stuff I want to do with it. I want to cook some of it, I want to make broth with some of it, I want to eat some of it raw. My question is, how do I go about taking this large ham and using the different pieces, making different pieces and using them for different things? Right.
+
+[7:12] Okay. So with a with a country ham, and by by the way, uh, even though a Kentucky ham is a Kentucky ham, they're extensions of the culture from Virginia ham. And in fact, a lot of the people who uh whose families um are very old ham curers in places like Kentucky and Tennessee are actually direct uh transplants from um from Virginia. So the the culture of Virginia ham uh stretches uh across and is you know country hams as as we know them which means that this current phrase I'm about to give to you applies to Kentucky hams as well as to Virginia hams. But the old joke goes that uh the definition of forever is two people and a country ham because it lasts so long and you can use it for such a long time that it almost never never goes away.
+
+[7:56] I haven't found that to be the case because uh because I eat so much of it whenever I have one in the house. The first thing you want to make sure is um that you're keeping it properly so uh in the old days um Morris Berger who's uh from Burgers uh smokehouse in Missouri uh you know what they used to do back in but in the days before refrigeration was they would cut uh slices of the uh of the ham out and then wipe lard over the cut surfaces so they wouldn't lose too much moisture uh and they would hang them from thin um from thin like wires in their in their uh in their shed uh to stop uh vermin from being able to get down the uh like a thick rope to get it so that's how they used to do it in the old days um but I mean typically what people do when they have a country ham nowadays is they'll cut the um they'll cut the cushion which is the so if you look at a country ham, right? If you look at the face, the face of it's the the the part that was actually attached to the pig that's not skin. That part is typically very, very dry. Uh and so, unlike a prosciutto uh, which is designed to have a fairly even um salt and dryness level throughout the entire thing of the meat.
+
+[9:03] In American country ham, typically the face is going to be very dry. On the reverse side of the face, you'll have the cushion, and the cushion is the kind of thick muscly part. And because of the way country hams are hung in the U.S., uh they tend to be a lot um thicker and therefore a lot less dry uh than uh the rest. So, what a lot of people will do is remove the cushion, right, uh off of the off of the ham and then slice that one separately for more of your presentation pieces you're eating, uh you're eating it uh as a crude o situation, uh, and then you will take the um the face section and use it for uh stocks and whatnot. I tend to do very, very little uh cooking of it because I mean it just gets so s it gets so tough and salty when you cook it, but it's amazing, like sliced and put over over eggs, you know, and then just letting a little bit of heat hit it, or as a substitute for things on pizza thrown in at the end of the of the cook time, usually on the pizza to just sizzle it up a little bit.
+
+[10:03] Um I what I used to do, I had a meat slicer, so what I would do is I would bone the thing out whole and then just slice it and enjoy all the all the different portions. But at home, it's very difficult to bone out uh a country ham. So but the way to do it is to take it and to locate where the kind of uh the the joint is in there, right? Saw through that with a hacksaw, if you have a meatsaw, that's good. Saw through it with the hacksaw.
+
+[10:27] The back side of it has some meat that can be sliced once you get that little uh piece out, but there's less and less meat as you get towards the edge of that bone. I would trim off uh some of the very outside fat. You want to keep the majority of the fat there, but the skin itself sometimes can have a little bit of a funky flavor, and sometimes you can have little areas of taint and uncured stuff running down the bone sections of it. So you want to remove any parts that you don't like, and then um the parts in the tail you can use for trim, they can be added to ground hamburger meat, anything like that, or stocks and soups. The face also, because it's so dry, stock soups, or like grated sometimes if you really dry it out, and then the cushion for your more uh you know fancy applications.
+
+[11:05] Once you saw through the ham at that joint, then you can um then you can either cut the cushion off whole or take a knife and and debone it. It just takes a while. And be careful not to the only time I've ever broken a knife in my entire life of cooking is on an American country ham. Okay, you you so you don't uh you say you don't uh cook them, but they recommend if you're going to soaking it. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[11:32] I mean, it's just if you're gonna cook it, the salt level is too high. So you need to get some of the salt out of it and equalize the salt content, especially in the face. So, you know, my grand what my grandma used to do in Virginia was uh she would throw it in a in a pot of water, let it get all you know, they she would soak it in a couple of changes of water, almost like you would do like uh bacalau, you know, or or or baccala, depending on where you're from. Uh, it's not necessary if you're going to if if you're not going to cook it. If like the issue with the cooking also is the the recommendations on an American country ham because of USDA guidelines.
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+[12:07] Here's what's perverse. American country hams are a ready-to-eat product. You do not need to cook them. Uh, however, in terms of safety. Uh however, like our traditions come from uh um England on this, and in England, hams are traditionally uh cooked, even though our hams are more akin to the hams that you would get in in terms of you know, in terms of Spain and and uh parts of France and Italy, uh in terms of their actual dryness and their uh their usefulness in that way.
+
+[12:33] And so we tend to cook them even though they don't need to be cooked, and in the old days, the way you would cook them is you might soak it for a little while in water, and then you'd stick it in a giant lard can with water, bring the temperature up, and then just let it ride overnight. You wouldn't be and so the actual inside of the ham wouldn't be cooked to that high of a temperature because it doesn't actually need cooking. They're just softening it and cooking it a little bit. You see what I'm saying? So the recommendations that are on the uh packages for country ham, because they're based on USDA cooking of meats are absurdly high.
+
+[13:02] It is not possible to make a country ham that tastes good following the recommendations that are on the package. Uh the other problem is is that we're used to eating ham in general sliced extremely thickly, and you don't want a piece of country ham sliced that thick. So if you are going to cook a ham, and it and cooked hams are good on things like biscuits or fried and put on eggs, you want to slice it extremely, extremely thinly. And and and country ham is not meant to be you know your main source of calories at a meal. Country ham is meant to almost be a seasoning, it's a seasoning meat.
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+[13:31] Do you see what I'm saying? Yep. Good. All right, good. Well, thanks so much for calling in, and I always love any sort of country ham questions.
+
+[13:38] Thanks for your answer. Thank you. We have another caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, we are here. Nice.
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+[13:44] What's up? So uh hi, we're we're Tom and Tonek in Chicago. Uh thanks for taking the call. Um so we have a whole pig head split lengthwise that we want to serve whole. And I have two questions.
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+[13:54] First of all, we want to do it in the circulator. I want to know the best way to uh have a whole pig's head in the circulator. And second of all, I want to smoke half of it, and I want to know how the smoker and the circulator play together. Okay, so how big is the pig's head? Um, it's like an adult pig head.
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+[14:11] Wow, so so big. Can you can't do you have a vacuum machine capable of uh bagging it? I have access to one. Okay. Yeah, so I mean, uh the two schools of of thought about this.
+
+[14:22] If you want it to taste if you bag it and cook it in a circulator, the meat's gonna hold together nicer, which is going to make it easier to do uh like a whole a whole prep. The problem is when you cook it in a circulator that way and you pull it out, uh usually the skin is gonna get a little bit damaged, and so you're gonna have assuming you're gonna crisp up one or both sides of it and have the the skin side be crispy, right? Or no? Yeah, yeah. That is our plan.
+
+[14:49] Yeah, so the the the issue on a lot of things like pig skin is it gets extremely delicate during the cook process. And so what you're gonna be doing is a two-part cook, right? Where you're gonna be uh cooking and gelatinizing the skin and the meat in a low temp cook, and then you're gonna be doing a crisp off process. And you just have to be careful that you don't damage the surface of the skin in the in the in the process. I mean, it's why you might want to think of doing uh instead of a circulator, if you have access to a combi, you might want to think about doing a combi.
+
+[15:18] Uh or but you know, circulator will work fine. You just have to be careful, careful with the skin. As long as you can bag it, you should be alright. The vacuum level is not gonna hurt uh meat like in in a p in a in a pig head. I've never done a pig, I've never done a head with the bones in it, so I'm not sure you're gonna draw some of the stuff out of the of the bones, uh, and I don't know how much void space there is, i.e.
+
+[15:39] how much bag problems you're gonna have around things like the teeth, which means you're gonna have to put oil into it to take up any spaces that are in the teeth section. Is this making sense or no? This is making perfect sense. Yeah. Uh the only other thing that you have to think about now is whether you want it to be more of a traditional low temp cook or whether you want it to taste more poached, a la what you would get in a head cheese, right?
+
+[16:01] And so if you want it to taste more poached, then you're gonna have to put some stock in with it instead of oil. It's a this is a totally uh a question if you do it that way, it won't hold together as well as if you do it in uh oil, which is essentially what I would think of as a as a dry cooking technique, even though it's in a bag underwater, right? I feel like the poached head cheese thing is the opposite of what I'm going for here. Okay, so then no liquid in the bag, just oil, and then you'll get more of a dry cook thing. I would unbag the pig's head when it's when it's hot.
+
+[16:30] Uh and uh although remember when it's hot, the skin's most delicate, right? Because when you take a pig skin and you cook it, it's extremely delicate because it renders out the gelatin. Then when it gets cold, then it's it's it's fine again. You can work with it because the gelatin resets. So if you the reason to unbag it hot is to flash off some of the liquid off off the surface of it so that it's gonna be able to pick up a smoke better, right?
+
+[16:52] But if if you're gonna have a long time between when you're gonna cook it and and uh and when you're gonna finish it, then you could cool the whole thing down gently, unbag it, uh, and then I would I would like kind of bring it up to temp blow the excess moisture off the surface if you can, in like a in like a low convection uh, you know, with the door open so that the moisture leaves the the the skin section, and then you're gonna need to do either a roast off or the after you blow the moisture off of it, uh put it in the in your smoker, smoke it up. It should take a smoke fine after after it's been cooked, so long as it's not wet on the surface. Okay, so in general, this is like one of my big questions listening to you for years is so if I'm gonna do it, if I'm gonna do a cut of meat in the circulator and in the smoker, I want to circulate first, dry it off, and then put it in the smoker. Huh. I mean, that's just the way I would approach it, but now that you say it, I see no reason why you can't smoke it and then throw it into the bag.
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+[17:44] I mean, it seems like it would work either way. I mean, uh the the issue is I mean, I presumably you have a cold smoker, right? Yep. Yeah, I mean the only advantage I can see of smoking it afterwards is you have no uh there's no safety issues involved because you've already done the cook the kill step. Um and if you were gonna smoke it hot, then I mean it depends on how long you're gonna smoke it.
+
+[18:06] If you're gonna smoke it only for a little while, pick up a little bit of flavor, you're not gonna get like a huge cook through on it, it's not gonna be a problem. But you know, on the other hand, if you're looking for the opposite of a poached flavor, you're gonna want to evacuate some of that moisture off of the surface of the meat anyway, in which case I think it might be advantageous to do the the drying after it's been a little bit of drying after it's been cooked along with a smoke process. You know what I mean? And then and so you're gonna smoke it then crisp it? Oh, we lost him.
+
+[18:34] No, you didn't. We're still here. Oh, okay. You're gonna smoke it and then crisp it or no? Yeah, I think that's the plan.
+
+[18:39] Yeah, I mean, uh you look, you could do it either way, and I'm also assuming that you're gonna do a pig's head at a relatively elevated temperature compared to normal low temperature cooking. Uh yeah. Yeah. Well, now how high would you do a pig set at? Well, it depends.
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+[18:53] I mean, so like for instance, uh, it depends on how traditional you want it to taste. Do you know what I'm saying? So if you want it to taste more like uh like a confie, uh, I would do it at traditional confit temperature. When I do duck, for instance, uh, I do duck legs at traditional temperatures just in a bag so that I won't require an uh a lot of extra fat and it won't overcook and it won't dry out. Um so you know, I do duck legs all the way up at, you know, eighty, eighty-two in that range.
+
+[19:20] You know what I mean? Like uh a traditional range, simmering ranges. Uh whereas if you want it to taste uh a lot if you want an entirely different result, then you're gonna go in the much lower range in the mid-sixties, let's say, but it's gonna be a different result from what people would normally expect from a pig's head. And it's gonna take a long time for the skin to totally render to gelatin at those uh low, low temperatures. Do you know what I'm saying?
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+[19:44] I know exactly what you're saying. That's really helpful. Thank you. Hey, no problem. Thank you.
+
+[19:47] Hey, it uh send us a Twitter or give a call and tell us how it worked out. I will try to do that. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. Oh, we have another colour.
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+[19:54] You know what I eat before I take a call? You know what we used to eat all the time? Uh splits lamb's head. Like roasted in the oven. Good stuff.
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+[20:00] Yeah. Capuzzle. Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Daniel from uh Austin, Texas. I recently bought a uh rotovap, uh Beauti, I think R110.
+
+[20:11] Yep. And uh I got a dry vacuum uh that's coming via eBay, but I don't have a controller, and uh I want to kind of keep my costs down and I don't know. I recently got modernist cuisine, but they don't really give any guidance as where to get a vacuum controller or what to look for. I I know I want something digital, but I really just don't know where to start. Okay, so the vacuum controller that you're I mean the vacuum pump you're getting is it is an Edwards BOC dry vac or just like a a Welsh dry vac?
+
+[20:36] Is it piston? What what kind of pump is it? It's a piston. Okay. So uh how good are you at electronics?
+
+[20:44] Uh I'm I'm okay at it. Um I mean I I have a BS in chemistry. I took some electronics courses. I kind of mess around with stuff. All right, because they the oh yeah, there's there's some good news and some bad news here.
+
+[20:56] So by by the way, for people we're talking about is a rotary evaporator is a vacuum distillation uh, you know, uh piece of equipment. It's used in chemistry labs uh and increasingly in kitchens, and the premise is is that by uh doing your distillation at uh under a vacuum you can reduce the temperature and also reduce any possibility of oxidation of the product. So it allows you to do very gentle uh distillations with very clean flavors of things like herbs. Okay. Uh now the the good news is well, is this for a restaurant or for your for home?
+
+[21:27] It's for home. Okay. So the good news is is that you can allow it to be a little bit fidgety, right, if you're doing it at home, especially at the get-go. Uh bad news is vacuum controller, so you you we can get this done. That's not a problem.
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+[21:42] The bad news is actual built vacuum controllers are ridiculously expensive. That's from my experience, yeah, I'm looking them on a UBS. Yeah, they're they're crazy. The the piston pump that you're getting is what, like the Welch, like the Wobble trip? Wait a second.
+
+[21:57] I uh it's uh I'm gonna have it in front of me. It's a Pfeiffer vacuum MVP uh dry pump. Uh and I don't really know much more about it since it hasn't come in the mail yet, frankly. Right, okay. So here is it the the easiest, cheapest way to get started is so so any leak in a vacuum system in a rotary evaporator that happens prior to uh leaving the condenser unit is completely detrimental to flavor, kills your flavor.
+
+[22:23] But uh a bleed in the vacuum system in between the condenser and the vacuum pump is a fine way to regulate your vacuum pressure at the get-go. And for years, before I had a vacuum controller, I just used a needle valve, like a very small, you know, eighth-inch NPT, which is national pipe taper, uh needle valve that I put onto a uh T off of my vacuum line, and I just had my vacuum pump going great guns the entire time, and I would bleed a small amount of air into the system to regulate the pressure, right? And so as a first approximation, the first test, right, then that'll get you off the ground running and figuring out distillation and your rotor vap and all of that stuff for you know under 20 bucks, right? Now the next level above and you should be constantly searching vacuum controllers on eBay, right? Yeah.
+
+[23:12] That's what I've been doing. The next level above that is you can get yourself a uh vacuum gauge. And if you get a vacuum gauge, uh then you can at least tell where your a digital vacuum gauge, you can at least tell where your system is sitting at any one point in time. Okay. The next level above that is you could build your own controller, uh, you know, use the if you go to Aubur instruments, they have a lot of the parts to do this for reading vacuum, and they can be tweaked out in um because that was that was something I was wondering about.
+
+[23:42] Is it just uh gonna be a gauge plus a feedback loop essentially? Yeah. Well, there's there's a couple different ways to do this, right? If you need to if you're gonna buy, so you have a dry pump, which means it doesn't have any oil. If you have an oil-based pump, the the control logic is a little more difficult because you have to worry about switching an oil-based pump off and on, because if you switch an oil-based pump off and on without uh you know, just keep doing it, you have possibility of backstreaming oil into your system.
+
+[24:06] But because you have a dry pump, that's not an issue. So you you can put a uh you can just put a valve, like you know, like a solenoid valve there that's rated for vacuum, uh, and then uh, you know, a um uh a vacuum sensor and just put it on a loop and just ha have it go. The problem is is that the really expensive nice vacuum pumps uh and controllers, they have uh the the motors are controlled like pulse by pulse, they're pulse controlled. And so they can actually slow the motor down towards the end of the vacuum cycle rather than just you know going on and off with a set number of millibars of hysteresis, right? Um you know, so that's you know, so that's what the nicer vacuum control gets gets you.
+
+[24:49] The really nice vacuum control bases it on uh the um the really that no one has because it's only in the bigger systems is you here's the secret is that you want to know what the vacuum level is because it's telling you what the actual boiling point is. The the boiling point of your water the the sorry, the set point of your water bath and a roto vap really has only a marginal amount to do with what the temperature of your product is. In the same way that when you put uh a flame underneath a pot of water, the flame doesn't have a direct uh impact, the flame temperature doesn't have a direct impact on what the water temperature is because it's not going to go above a hundred, right? Celsius. So uh your water bath temperature is not an adequate uh indicator.
+
+[25:27] Uh the only thing that's adequate is the vapor temperature, right? And so you could develop a control. I would put a vacuum gauge on it, but if you really want to be uh you know, kind of you know ahead of the curve for most people, is I would uh put a uh thermocouple gauge in your in your uh condenser and measure the the measure when the temperature knee happens between the condensing and non-condensing condensing section and run your vacuum that way. Oh, so that instead of looking at the vapor line on the condenser, have something that detects it automatically and turn and slows the vacuum down to reduce the vapor line? Is that so when you yeah, so so I would definitely start with a needle valve to get a handle on the how uh distillation works, and then uh but if you if you know if if you're used to rotor vaps at all, when you put your hand again your back of the your hand against the condenser and you go up and down the condenser, you can feel where it goes from warm to cold, right?
+
+[26:19] And that's where you're and and you can visually see it on as a condensation line. But you could just measure the temperature between uh the the vapor above the condensation line and below it, and you'll see a sharp break. And so if you just control the vacuum to put that break exactly where you want it on the condenser, you can keep it at saturation for all day long, and you don't really care what the vacuum pressure is, so long as it's not wildly high or wildly low. So I would also have a gauge so that you know where you are. Yeah, that's genius.
+
+[26:45] Uh does the thermocouple have to be it can be outside the condenser, I would assume. Uh maybe the condenser without breaking it is what I'm worried about. Yeah. I mean, try try it, because it's very simple to try it that way. So try it external to it and see whether you can get an accurate enough result, and if not, then try to figure out a way to put it on the inside.
+
+[27:05] Okay. Is it is it worth buying a vacuum controller then? Do you think? Do you think I should vamp up with these solutions? I mean, look, I love having a vacuum controller, but it's also made me lazy so that I haven't built it the way I want it, which is temperature control the way I'm telling you.
+
+[27:20] So yeah. Oh, one last thing. Uh, if you don't have plastic coated glass, uh then I would recommend always wearing safety goggles on that thing because it can be uh it could be an eye hazard if it implodes or wrapping it in electrical tape. Okay. I I had one other question.
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+[27:38] I'm having some problems with the bath that they sent me. Uh it occurred to me that I could just use my sous vide as the water bath. Do you think there's gonna be any problem with that? It's not a problem, it's just messier. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:48] Like it's just like using uh a regular uh a regular circulator. I mean, I've done it in a pinch, it's just really messy, and the circulator head doesn't really fit nicely with with the thing. So the water bath ends up being a convenient way to do it. You know what I'm saying? Uh because it's built for it.
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+[28:03] But if you're having problems with the water bath, there's nothing to stop you from starting by using a circulator. I have done it. Okay. All right. Well, that was very helpful.
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+[28:11] I appreciate it. All right, let's know how it works. Alright, and let's go to our first commercial break. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals.
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+[29:09] We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. ICC, a supporter of the show, but no longer of me. Boom!
+
+[29:26] What up, Dark? Boom! Boom. Okay, so listen, I have not forgotten you. I have not forgotten you, um, Mark.
+
+[29:34] We're talking about wonder wondra flower. Okay, so uh if you go back to the uh beginning section of the show, so wondra uh is two main things. It is both pre-gelatinized, meaning it's been cooked, and and then wondra is cooked in a moist environment because trying to cook out a flour uh in a non-uh moist environment doesn't work the same way. It doesn't do the same stuff. So it's cooked in a moist environment to gelatinize or functionalize whatever you want to call it.
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+[29:59] Uh gelatinize the starch. And then it is milled and then agglomerated. And what agglomeration is it means that if you look at Wondra, you can see it. It looks porous. It looks like I'm trying to think of what it looks like.
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+[30:12] It looks like it looks like little like mini pumice stone tiny rocks. And what are the benefits of agglomeration? Okay. Well, so the benefits of uh pre-gelatinizing is it will go it will go into solution in a cold liquid, right? So because it goes into solution in a cold liquid, uh, it doesn't require uh a lot of heat and moisture together to become functional, which is why in low moisture things like uh pie crusts or like in cakes, it um it can functionalize very quickly.
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+[30:47] In fact, if you look at if you look at a pie crust uh uh under uh a scanning electron microscope, most of the starch granules haven't actually been cooked out, they're mostly still intact because there's not enough moisture in that recipe to uh get them to do their thighing. So you can um, which is good because you actually don't want a lot of structure, but sometimes you want to like you know, sometimes you I don't and I haven't used wondra in it, but the theory being that because you're adding a pre-gelatinized uh thing, you'll get some extra uh starch functionality out of it. And I guess it's also low protein, so I guess that's helpful. I don't know. Uh in that.
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+[31:18] In a cake, I read about its use in in uh in in cakes, and the idea there is that you don't need to do a lot of mixing to get the starch to perform its functional equivalency, so you don't have to overbeat the the dough because the stuff's already pre-hydrated, right? Uh obviously, it's you know the main uh use that everyone uses it for is uh making gravies without lumps. And the reason it makes gravy without lumps and also can be added cold, right? Uh, is the agglomeration. And it in normal particles, fine particles have a couple of problems with them.
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+[31:49] They're dusty, right? There's a lot of dust involved, and that's one of the early reasons that people wanted to use the wonder was to have stuff around that wasn't dusty. Two, uh, when you agglomerate the particles together, uh, it's very easy for water to infiltrate the particles and break off uh small, small pieces of this uh flour and then hydrate. Uh and that is not possible if you just add uh flour and fine particles because those particles tend to clump uh as they're trying to uh go into solution, and as they clump, they form a layer of gummy crap around them, and that layer of gummy crap actually prevents the stuff on the inside from getting wet at all, and because it doesn't get wet, it doesn't dissolve. So the agglomeration helps with dissolution, right?
+
+[32:30] And the pre-gelatination pre-gelatinized thing means it's already cooked out, so it will thicken stuff when it's cold. That's awesome. But also, uh normally when you use flour, you have to what's called cook it out to get rid of that raw flour taste, and there is no raw flour taste in wondra because it's already been cooked. All right. So that's what's going on with the wonder.
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+[32:48] The question is how are you gonna do that uh at home? You can't really make wondra at home. You can't. But there are a couple things you can do uh that you can buy outside of the US of A. One thing is national starch, national starch makes uh a product called ultra spurse uh three, and it's a pre-gelatinized waxy maize starch, right, that is agglomerated.
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+[33:09] So uh you see if you like, and there's a big thing, like a lot of uh I've talked about on the show a couple of times. Some chefs used to recommend Ultra-tex, but I always recommend using Ultra spurse because Ultra-tex is a pre-gelatinized starch uh that is not agglomerated, and so it can form lumps, and ultra spurse is a uh pre-gelatinized starch that um is agglomerated and so will not clump up on you. The only reason to use uh to not use spurse is spurse is a little more expensive than tech's, but for most home cooks that's not really an issue. And the other good news is Ultra Spurse is available on modernistpantry.com and they will ship all over the world, and I don't mind saying that even though they're no longer a supporter of our ship. No, I like them.
+
+[33:50] Yeah. All right. Yeah, good people. Uh so yeah, so they will ship that all over the world. Now, uh if you don't want to um do that for some reason, right?
+
+[33:59] You're gonna have a tough time making your own pre uh gelatinized agglomerated starch. But instead of agglomerating, if you don't mind cooking the product out, and you're gonna use it in something like gravy, uh, you can separate flour particles using some old school methods. And the one that I'm gonna tell you now is Bermani. Bermani is where you take butter, uh, which will not uh you know, it does not solubilize the flour, right? And you mold butter and flour together into little balls, and then you can stir those balls into your gravy, and because you separated the flour particles with fat, they no longer stick together, and as the butter melts, it releases small flour particles into your solution and it tends not to lump up as much.
+
+[34:39] So there you go. Either buy Ultra Spurse 3, which is uh a very good uh substitute for things like thickening and can be used in baking applications, or go to uh something like a bermani if you just want a quick way to thicken a gravy and you can't get your wonder. What do you think, Stas? Good job. Good.
+
+[34:55] Oh, thank you. Okay. Uh Ben from San Francisco writes in uh this is about his uh Thanksgiving uh thing of the jig. Uh Hello Heritage Radio. Valentine's Day, no?
+
+[35:06] Yeah, Valentine's Day. What'd I say? Thanksgiving. Oh, geez. My brain fried.
+
+[35:10] Okay. Hey Joe and the rest. You like that one too? Wow, look at Joe. Yeah.
+
+[35:15] So much love today. I know it, right? It's Ben from San Francisco again. Dave, my apologies for not reporting back on the Valentine's dinner I made for Anjali. Your advice was excellent.
+
+[35:23] Oh, thank you. Anjali has forgiven me for listening to your podcast during our vacation. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad. This is what Ben said he did on the Valentine's Day, not on Thanksgiving correction.
+
+[35:32] I ended up cooking a rack of lamb at 55C for two hours, uh bringing it down to 50 C before deep frying. I salted after unbagging from Sous vide as you and others have suggested, and I got better results than normal. Deep fried lamb fat is a bit funky, but with a side of a ratatouille and harissa yogurt sauce, everything came out really well. I also did biscuits. Biscuit stars.
+
+[35:52] I also did biscuits with apricot preserves. Mmm, biscuits, and thinly sliced smoked pork jowl. Sorry about the biscuits and stuff. Finally, I had to do uh finally I tried to do a jackfruit custard sous vide at 83C, but it didn't set up in the fridge. Turned it into a jackfruit jackfruit creme en glaze.
+
+[36:09] Nice save, Ben. Uh uh poured it over lemon vanilla cake, and no one was the wiser. Just a quick note. Jackfruit is awesome. Tastes like juicy fruit gum and looks like a face hugger pod from aliens.
+
+[36:19] Yeah, yeah, dude. And there's two kinds, there's a several main kinds of jackfruit. Remember, Styles when we cut the jackfruit off the trees in Florida, and no one told us that like you're supposed to like cut it and then let it sit on the ground for a while. And I got the latex all over my shirt and I ruined the shirt and I ruined my knife, and I was screaming and cursing because I couldn't get the latex from the jackfruit off of my knife, and it was a huge nightmare. Uh we have uh I guess what's his name?
+
+[36:41] Campbell, Richard Campbell, and Norris Leedsma is their name. We have their book on jackfruit back in my in my library on jackfruit. Uh jackfruit, if you've never had it, is delicious. Uh I don't like the I mean the canned version's whatever, okay, but really good first introduction to jackfruit for you people. Go to an Asian market and get the jackfruit chips, not the crappy ones, but the nice ones that are all puffy and delicious.
+
+[37:02] And they uh do have a juicy fruit note. They're awesome. Anyway, so uh Ben's question is my question. I'm planning to barbecue pork shoulder and brisket. I understand that to avoid the stall caused by evaporative cooling.
+
+[37:12] I need to wrap the meat with foil when it stops rising in temp at roughly 155 Fahrenheit. Uh barbecue joints don't seem to ever wrap their meat uh, though. What if anything am I losing when I wrap the meat? Are all these famous Southern barbecue joints just doing it wrong? Thanks again, Ben.
+
+[37:27] Okay. Uh well, let me put it. The the the proof of the pudding of the Southern barbecue joints is, as they say, in the eating. And having eaten in kind of in Texas style uh barbecue with actually Chris Young from Modernist Cuisine, while in fact discussing uh the stall that you're referring to during to evaporative cooling, right? Uh we we learned one thing.
+
+[37:47] And we learned that that meat is delicious, it's delicious. You can't argue with delicious. You know what I'm saying? Like, so the barbecue joints are not doing it uh wrong. Uh similarly in North Carolina, uh uh, you know, the meats that they're making there are delicious, and so it's not that they're doing it wrong.
+
+[38:04] Uh in modernist cuisine, they're advocates of stopping the stall by wrapping because they're advocates of doing sous vide cooking in general. However, I do not find that sous vide cooking is better or worse. It is different. If you like uh so the meats done in a traditional way are gonna be drier in general and gonna have a different outside uh surface texture than you would if you did it sous vide. It'll also have a different internal texture because they're gonna go to a much higher temperature than they normally would sous vide, and the meat tends to actually have a different structure.
+
+[38:35] Uh so to me, it's not a matter of better, it's not a matter of worse, it's just a matter of uh different and what you prefer. Yeah? Yes. Yes. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[38:44] Hi, it's Brian in San Francisco. How are you guys? Doing well. How you doing? I'm doing swell, thanks.
+
+[38:50] Um it is citrus season over here, and so I am making gonna try and try my hand at lemon curd and orange curd and grapefruit curd. Um I have seen some recipes which you know use the traditional eggs, and some add agar to them, and I've seen some that add gelatin to them. And I'm wondering, do I need all those extras and and uh what do they do, or could I do it with just uh eggs or egg yolk? What do you think? And best technique.
+
+[39:22] Huh. Well, uh you know, um let me see. I haven't made one in in a long time. Presumably you're adding the gelatin, uh I mean the the I you don't need to add gelatin, right? Or agar.
+
+[39:34] Or agar. No. Me, look, the reason to add agar is so that you um don't have to use gelatin, right? And agar has the agar has a second benefit uh over gelatin in other than just it's vegetarian. Uh it has uh the benefit that if you're going to have this thing sitting around in a hot climate, right, then uh agar won't melt out on you.
+
+[39:58] Agar is not as good uh uh a texture for things like this because it breaks in more of a brittle way, which isn't necessarily which isn't curdie. Do you know what I mean? So if you were gonna do a curd that was going to be uh you know stirred and then spread, then I would say agar is a very poor choice. But it would it would do so, or you know, you could make a fluid gel for that matter out of it, and then you wouldn't set it with however much egg yolk you want. Um so I mean the agar I've never I've never done, but seems seems like it it would it would work.
+
+[40:27] I don't I don't think they're necessary. There's a more like insurance, right? Wouldn't you think so? Hello? Yeah, like just it just just in just in case.
+
+[40:37] Like for instance, the one from Modernist Cuisine doesn't use anything but egg yolk. Right. That seems to me to make sense. That sucker will work. Okay.
+
+[40:46] Uh so you think skip the skip the gelatin, skip the agar, just go with the egg yolk. I mean modernist cuisine, like the great thing about modernist cuisine, uh and I haven't looked at their custard section uh in in a million years because uh, you know, I I haven't actually shelled out the money for the book yet, so I only looked at it when I'm hanging out with uh Chris or with another. Oh, at home, yeah. And so like they have like these parametric things. They've done a lot of tests on the number of egg yolks required and the temperature required to set various various things.
+
+[41:12] Uh and so I think their their research on things like that in particular is probably extremely reliable. Okay, one question is, you know, most of these recipes are for lemon curd, um, but if I want to go with other kinds of citrus, well that and I do choose to go with agar when or or gelatin, will any of the acidity be uh be an issue? No, the acidity level for something like agar, uh I mean I've done plenty of uh sets of things like l lemony things with agar and uh similarly I've never things with agar that have a problem are things like cassis, things with high tannin levels, or things that are extremely acidic, but you're not likely to eat something that is so acid that the agar is not gonna set as a result. So I think you're gonna be um you're gonna be okay. Um, you know, the only issue is is that you might add less sugar to something that's not as tart, and so then your texture is gonna get changed by the fact that your sugar ratio has changed.
+
+[42:10] Does that make sense? So if you're gonna do it from a different citrus, I mean I think the main thing is gonna be your acid sugar balance has to come in, and then your sugar level has to be the same uh or the texture won't be the same. Uh so the sugar level impacts the agar? Sure. No, the sugar sugar level well, sugar level will impact uh agar because you're impacting how much water there is available to the agar to set, but sugar level will also affect uh egg yolk proteins if you're setting it that way.
+
+[42:36] So I don't know whether the w whether the modernist cuisine has that meaning a specific sugar ratio for the egg yolk that they talk about, but I know that different sugar ratios affect the setting uh temperature and the finish uh strength of um egg protein gels. Yeah, they say here uh when they scale it, it's 30% yolks, 75% sugar. Right. Sounds about right. Yeah.
+
+[42:59] Yeah. So you want to stay in similar ranges. Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much. Um I think I'll try it uh the old-fashioned way first.
+
+[43:08] Nice. Well, tweet us out and tell us what happened. Okay, great. Thanks. Have a good day.
+
+[43:13] All right, thanks. Uh oh, by the way, Ben also at the end said, P.S. still waiting for the Kickstarter project to be announced. Listen, here's what's going on, Ben, and anyone else who cares. Uh a Kickstarter project.
+
+[43:23] The reason we can't talk about it is our lawyer, our patent lawyer, is not allowing us to say a darn thing about what we're doing until he files the patent. But it's supposed to be filed this week, so if all goes well, I should be able to say what it is next week, right? Right. That looks really good. Uh Nastasha now talking about something you can't see.
+
+[43:40] That's typical Nastasha style. Somebody is eating some sort of what looks like a low temperature cooked piece of beef uh out in i i in in the audience. Okay. Uh I'm gonna have to blast through this. Colin Arneson writes in about ice cream.
+
+[43:52] Uh Nastasha Jack and Joe, due to health reasons, my mother cannot have dairy. This wouldn't be that much of a problem for her if it weren't for ice cream. She's been buying tofu ice cream for a while, but is getting tired of it, partly because it only comes in one flavor. Oh, there used to be a whole bunch of different flavors of uh tofu ice cream. You ever had that stuff?
+
+[44:07] Nastasha's like, why would I do that? I eat dairy. Okay. Uh uh partly because it only comes in one flavor. Any ideas for creating a dairy-free ice cream base?
+
+[44:15] I've heard of people subbing out coconut milk for dairy milk, but she doesn't care for coconut that much. And I'd be worried about the texture since coconut milk has less fat, 4.25%, compared to most ice cream bases, 10 to 20%. I've been thinking about making a fake milk with emulsified oil and water. Any input? What oil should I use?
+
+[44:31] Need to have uh similar fatty acid makeup to milk fat. I don't have any emulsifiers or hydrocolloids at the moment, but I'm planning on getting some stuff from Modernist Pantry anyway. Although also I have no vita prep, though I do have a blender, so that's out of the question for the time being. Thanks, uh, Colin Arneson. Okay, look, one thing.
+
+[44:47] Uh okay, so I I know that your mom doesn't like coconut, but I'm just gonna talk about coconut for a minute anyway. First of all, uh the numbers on the coconut milk that you have for the coconut milk that I use are are not the same. Coconut the coconut milk, I and this morning I took a uh uh can of coconut milk, Goya coconut milk, out of the back of my uh out of my pantry and looked at it. Um and the stuff that I have is running at like 16% fat. So the coconut milk that I have runs between like 15 and 17 in that range percent fat.
+
+[45:17] And so it is actually useful for uh doing um ice creams. What I typically do when I'm doing ice creams is mixture of coconut uh milk and coconut cream or cream of coconut, aka Coco Lopez, no relation to Nastasha. Uh and then uh, but I know your m I know your mom doesn't like it. But anyway, so let's break down an ice cream. Let's break down an ice cream uh recipe real quick.
+
+[45:39] Alright. So my rest my ice cream recipe is 500 mils of uh cream uh uh with roughly 36% fat, 36.6, uh 10 egg yolks, uh also at roughly like 26% fat, uh, and 500 mils of milk at like you know uh three and a half or f you know four percent fat, 170 grams of sugar. And what that recipe makes out to by weight is uh 18%, 18.5% fat by weight, and about 12.5% sugar by weight. Alright. So what you need to do when you want to come up with a recipe is just balance out uh those numbers.
+
+[46:11] Now, the reason why everyone uses coconut milk and coconut fats for uh ice cream recipes is because coconut milk and coconut the fat from coconuts has a very similar melting profile to butter fat. So it's a solid when it's cold and it melts by the time it's at body temperature. And that profile is very good for ice creams, right? And that's why they do it. You might want to consider looking at a little article uh done by um uh the American Palmoil dot com.
+
+[46:42] They have an article on uh using palm palm oil uh and uh you know, not not the liquid stuff, but the the more solid stuff. And you could go get that uh article or just get palm oil uh that and just use that maybe in emulsified and the other advantage with using it in uh it's already in coconut cream or creamed coconut is uh that it's already uh done for you. Uh in fact, if you buy Coco Lopez, it's got all kinds of stabilizers in it already. Uh so that you can I just like saying Coco Lopez. Uh but you can uh buy all kinds of stabilizers.
+
+[47:13] So just out of you know for your for your information. Coconut cream, which is the Asian stuff that not a lot of people buy here, is 26% fat with no sugar on average. I looked at some labels on the internet. Egg yolks are 26% fat. Cream of coconut, which is Coca Lopez, is 13% fat and also 56 bricks, meaning very high in sugar.
+
+[47:29] Coconut milk is 15 to 17% fat. So something that and what I did is I just entered all the stuff into an Excel spreadsheet and then came up with some numbers. So if you did uh if you did uh 11 egg yolks, 280 grams of coconut cream, the Coca Lopez, uh, and 730 uh you know grams of um coconut milk, you'd come out with very similar numbers to regular ice cream in terms of fat and sugar. But if you don't want to use coconut, you could try using um I mean it's hard. I mean, coconut milk is really good.
+
+[48:02] I've used peanut butter in ice creams as a partial substitution for some of it. But remember, when you move away from using any sort of dairy, you're also gonna have to not just replace the fat, you're gonna have to replace the dairy proteins because they're also functional. So you're gonna have to move to something like a soy protein or soap protein isolate or something that's uh high in protein that can provide some of the effect of the non-fat milk solids. Um sorry I couldn't be more help on that, but uh, I'll try to think of some formulations, have someone else uh send some stuff back. Um the other advantage of using coconut milk and coconut cream is that you don't have to use a blender because the stuff's already been made into a nice uh texture for you.
+
+[48:35] But I gotta think of some non coconut because I make coconut stuff all the time uh actually for ice cream at home because I have some people who don't want to eat the dairy sometimes. So I always have in my freezer some base that's made from uh coconut milk and coconut cream. And it doesn't really taste coconut y if you put a whole boatload of chocolate into it. Uh I found. Uh okay.
+
+[48:54] So listen, I'm gonna get kicked off the air in a second. But uh Alvin Schultz, you got a question about savory pop rocks. Uh I don't have time to talk about it this this week, but you can buy savory pop rocks, uh just blank pop rocks online. I believe at Chef Rubber. We'll look it up for next time.
+
+[49:08] Uh Jason Mulnari wrote in about cooked meats. He says you always mention your oven gets up to 800 degrees plus. What residential oven does that? Or did you hack it? I hacked it.
+
+[49:17] I put uh I I put two separate extra heating elements into my oven uh that are controlled with an external PID controller uh and embedded in a refractory cement. So I uh I hacked like everything else, I hacked it. Um residential oven does that except for on the self-crean clean. Some people out there have hacked their self-clean cycle, but I'm not gonna recommend you do that because I don't want you to burn your house down, but it's definitely hacked, and it wasn't a residential oven to begin with, it was uh it was a uh garland with a and it's it was it's a gas electric hybrid that I've uh tweaked out to do pizza. Okay, uh also Joseph W.
+
+[49:48] wrote in Dear Jack, Joe, uh, and the rest, Nastasha, question about broth. Uh thinking ramen in particular, would it be possible to make a broth with unrendered lard instead of or in place of some of the bones, then cooling the broth and removing the fat layer. In this scenario, all I care about is flavor. Don't care about the clarity or any other issues. Thank you.
+
+[50:04] Okay, if you like the flavor of lard, you can include it. I do not think you're gonna get enough uh enough collagen out of just the lard without the skin uh to have the effect you want in the broth to get the mouthfeel right, right? So if you happen to like the flavor of just like rendered lard, then you can put it in there. I'll tell you this though, having done like pork skin cook-offs for doing uh chicharones, the smell of just pork skins cooking alone in water is not pleasant. Right?
+
+[50:32] Yeah. Or beaver skin. Or be no beaver skin, much less pleasant. Although I kind of like it. It's very woodsy.
+
+[50:37] But anyway, so just be careful of that. If you include skins, then you're gonna have enough uh stuff in there, but you're not gonna get any meaty flavor from it. You're just gonna get that fat lard and skin flavor. Yeah, that gelatin flavor. Okay.
+
+[50:47] Uh Philip Watson, uh dinner party menu crisis, making reverse verified mint jewel at the start, but what apt to follow? Some form of pig, help. Do uh pork belly, do pork belly, do cook it low temp, press it after it's done. Uh let the air dry a little bit, slow render the skin till it's crispy, cut it in low slices, make some sort of nice sauce, cut into cubes. Everyone likes that.
+
+[51:06] Uh all right. So they're gonna kick me, they're really gonna kick me off the air in two seconds. But listen, I read this article in the New York Times magazine called The Extraordinary Science of Addictive Drunk Food by Michael Moss. I was extremely disappointed at the way the article presented things. Uh, and we're gonna have to talk more about it in general.
+
+[51:21] It's this guy won a Pulitzer Prize, but this is not, I don't think, Pulitzer Prize winning uh uh work that's being done here. Um I think it's very one-sided, very biased, uh, and also miss misrepresents a lot of the actual science that's going on and cherry picks the science about what's going on with uh with uh salt and with sugar and with fat. Uh I think misrepresents uh kind of um not necessarily the cause of why we're having so many health issues here, but definitely provides a no solutions and b puts all the blame on marketing strategies of companies instead of on the larger issues that are going on. And I'm gonna talk more about it hopefully next time. I'd like to get some comments in from people.
+
+[52:04] I also hope that the Museum of Food and Drink, uh, and we haven't talked about it before, details to follow. I want to do a show uh where at you know, with the museum, where we're moderating, and I want to get hardcore real scientists and food policy experts on the air in real reason debate, not one sided junk that's all either from an industry perspective or all either from an anti industry perspective. I'm sick of the way this stuff is portrayed in the media. I'm sick of the way this stuff is portrayed uh in general, and what we need is something like hardball, uh the you know, a political hardball. We need like Chris Matthews, we need something like that for what's going on in the in the food uh in food.
+
+[52:46] And it doesn't exist yet. Hopefully, we can do something uh like that here on this network. Details to follow. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org.
+
+[53:10] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family-run, eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit rolling press dot com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for thousands more. Go.
+
+[0:39] We're also Kilkrias Cooks at Hearts. We've got some questions, but don't know where to start. Dave Nastatsia Jack and Joe 2. They're all here now to listen and help us through. So get your cook check issues.
+
+[1:33] This is a call on Shay with your cooking issues. Every Tuesday. Coming to you in the back of uh Roberta's PT in Bushwick Brooklyn. Hey Joel, thanks for coming by. How are you doing?
+
+[2:05] Thanks for having me. Yeah, no problem. Here, pull that mic over there. And you're all we're also joined uh with uh America. Hello.
+
+[2:11] Hi. She hasn't had a mic yet, she will in a second. It's pointed uh where Joel's mouth used to be pointed. Uh and as usual, joined with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the engineering booth. No Joe.
+
+[2:22] No Joe! Joe's on tour, man. On tour? South by Southwest, yeah. He's uh big ups.
+
+[2:27] On the road with the big ups. Yeah, yeah, doing his front man routine. Rockstar life. Where's he gonna tour? Where's he gonna go?
+
+[2:33] Uh he'll be in Austin doing a few shows down there. And I think uh a few shows on the way to Austin. Like something like eight shows in 15 days. What's the big venue nowadays between here and Austin? Oh man, I don't know.
+
+[2:44] You're asking the wrong guy. No? Yeah, I have no idea. Anyway, good luck to Joe. Go out and see Joe.
+
+[2:50] That was great, Joel. Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. Uh and this was the long-awaited live performance of the Cooking Issues theme here on the uh on the on the air.
+
+[3:01] So uh in case you weren't paying attention to the theme song, calling your questions live too, 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Got a lot of crap to go through. Oh, by the way, where are you guys where are you guys hailing from if people don't already know? Uh New Haven, Connecticut is where I work.
+
+[3:14] We're from Clinton, though, so the southern uh shoreline of Connecticut. Yeah, uh back when I was there, there was an awesome song by uh Connecticut band called Gravel Pit called Going Back to Southern Connecticut. I don't know if you remember that song. No. Yeah, from the early 90s back when I was uh up in up in New Haven Way.
+
+[3:28] What are you guys doing in New Haven? So I'm a corporate chef, so um I have a uh corporate cafeteria that I run. Uh but I have most of my uh experience is in fine dining, so I sort of take that and move it to serve people lunch of this company that I work for called Higher One. Uh they seem to really like it. Um I got a decent budget to work with, great people, great staff.
+
+[3:47] Uh and I just take a big interest in sort of the modernist movement and uh doing everything in-house. So I run a full bread program there. I run a charcuterie program, um, and we serve this to people on blue plastic trays, and it's kind of funny. Nice. Yeah, nice, nice.
+
+[4:02] I haven't been up to New Haven in a while. Nastasha's sister up there at the Yale at this very moment. Uh all right, let's get cracking. We got a lot of crap. Oh, before I before I we're announcing what the Kickstarter is today, we haven't we haven't filmed it yet, but as of uh last week, I guess Friday, right?
+
+[4:16] We have our patent pending. Is that true, Stas? It was Friday. That's true. So I have my first patent pending, and so now I can tell you guys what it is we're working on.
+
+[4:23] Here's what it is. So uh anyone who's listening to me knows that uh I have issues with the use of torches in the kitchen. Because when you what happens is I I always find that they make what what I call a torch taste, and that you can tell uh the flavor of something if it's been torched. The other problem with torches is that um they tend to burn one spot if you're not very careful, so you have to back way back on them. It's very difficult to control because you have a very hot uh kind of point heat source that's blasting very fast.
+
+[4:52] You can also move stuff around. The torch, the torch gases are moving so fast. Now, for years, years, uh we've all thought that what was going on was an improperly mixed flame, right? Or incomplete combustion of the uh propane or butane. And so there's a lot of arguments back and forth on well, it's the it's the gas, right?
+
+[5:12] It's so that's why some people are like, well, butane tastes better than propane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or that somehow, if you can complete the combustion of what I in fact, what I used to think it was was they put um stink it stink of fence, I don't know what they're called. Odorants, there you go, into gases so that you could tell if there's a gas leak. Typically, uh uh sulfur containing things, mercaptins that you can smell in very small concentrations. So I always thought it was some sort of residue of that that hadn't been fully combusted.
+
+[5:37] Anyways, uh turns out uh none of that's the case. Uh we sent some uh we sent some products, including the new thing that we're making over to uh Ariel at UC Davis, our good friend, who did some GC mass spec work on meats cooked in a pan, meats cooked with a regular torch, and meats cooked with our new attachment. Right. Now, what our new attachment does is it arrests the flame, right, allows for complete combustion, but also spreads it out and turns it into uh mainly radiant energy. So, what it is is uh it's a cone that fits over your uh torch and has two screens on it, and those two screens convert the majority of the heat of the torch into radiant energy and stops it from being a direct hardcore blasting flame onto your thing, and also spreads it out evenly so that you have a three-inch circle of glowing red, like right it's stuzz, it's like crazy glowing red.
+
+[6:31] And the other thing about it with the because the screen is such a light thermal mass, unlike other radiant things like salamanders that take a long time to heat up, this suckers at full blast in like a couple of seconds. Not everyone says, Oh man, salamander instant on bull crap. You light up a salamander, it's it's many minutes until it's raging at full speed. Yeah, you can start cooking with it pretty quickly, but this sucker, instant on. Anyways, so she did a test of uh pan cooking, torch cooking, and the uh the new attachment that we're making, and it turns out that uh what's happening with the propane isn't uncombusted fuel, it's that the super high heat, high intensity, direct flame on the torch is creating new combustion flavors on the meat that are undesirable and taste fuely.
+
+[7:17] Uh and we have the data, and when we do the Kickstarter, you know, in uh in like a we'll probably do the Kickstarter in what, like a month or something, Stas? Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Uh anyway, so you like we'll show the diagram she did, the taste diagram, and there's kind of a good half and a bad half.
+
+[7:32] Our half is oh it doesn't taste the same as pan, but we haven't done tests versus grilling, which is what we think it's more like, or like straight broiling. But we're on the good half of the of the taste uh thing, and the torch cooking by itself is on the bad half due to these other uh newly created uh um cooking byproducts. Anywho, so we have one problem left with this uh attachment, and it'll fit on um we're we're making it right now to fit on the three most common torches that you have in kitchens. But the one problem we have, we don't have a name for it yet. Right, Stas?
+
+[8:04] Yeah. We sort of we've thrown around many, many. Yeah, but no one likes no like we don't like. We all like different names. Yeah, well Nastasha likes some of the options here.
+
+[8:11] Okay, well, Nastasha likes, which is absurd because it's too freaking long for a name, the all searing eye, because it looks like that's not my that goes to Piper. Piper came up with the name. No, he didn't. Oh really? No.
+
+[8:21] No, he didn't. You just like it best. Yeah, he came up with the name, and I mean, yeah, he did. I came up with that. Okay.
+
+[8:27] Anyway, no, I mean, like, I'm I'm glad to give Piper his his ups. You know I love myself some Piper, but it's an absurd name for the for the product because it's too long. Hey, can someone go get the all searing eye? No, it's not gonna happen in the kitchen, it won't happen. So then I was like, hey, because I love sawzalls, because who doesn't love a salzol?
+
+[8:42] Anyone out there that doesn't love a salzol can come and have a discussion with me privately. But sawzalls are amazing. And what do they saw? Do they saw some things? Everything, saws all.
+
+[8:50] So I was like, well, what about Sears all? Searzol, but and everyone's like, it sounds like Sears Roebuck. I don't want to buy it because it sounds like Sears Robux. So I got some some some blowback on that. Uh you can't use anything with the word dragon in it because there's already a torch company that uses the word dragon.
+
+[9:04] It's got to be something, it's got to be something, I don't know, that's easy to trademark. We lot I liked uh we like some version of Sally, like Sally, but like Piper, this is Piper's Sally Hander, but it's another silly name. That was Mark's. That was Mark's. I know.
+
+[9:19] It sounds sounds not family friendly, right? Yeah, you're gonna get a Sally Hander. Sally Hander, right. Here's why I like Sally though. I like Sally, I liked Sally, what did I like?
+
+[9:27] I like Sally Mattock, but no one likes that because Dax likes Sally Mattock. But I the reason people don't like people don't like the silly names. Why I like Sally is it sounds friendly, and it sounds like something you might say, Sally instead of Sally Mander, some version of Sally. But in uh in a what's it called? When I'm bowing to pressure from Nastasha, we're gonna probably put the letters A-S-E for all steering eye after this.
+
+[9:47] Yeah. Because we're patenting the whole text. It's just so funny. We're pat oh yeah, and we should base our letter. No, I mean it's great.
+
+[9:53] Alright, alright. So, anyways, so uh uh the so we'll probably put the letters A S E afterwards because this is the all steering eye version, and we might have a tabletop version that's not. So here's the here's the cooking issues contest uh of the next week because we need to get this thing straightened out. We're working on it, so we might not use any suggestions. However, if we get a suggestion in that we use, you will get a free version of whatever the hell this thing is called that we're trying to help us to name uh without having to uh invest money in the Kickstarter, right?
+
+[10:19] Fair? And can in in due consideration for the use of name and our ability to use it in all perpetuity. Um right? That's a good contest, yes? Speaking of contests, I have to give a shout-out to Cole Miles, who became a member uh and of Heritage Radio Ave through cooking issues.
+
+[10:35] So thanks, Co. Nice, nice. Is he the winner of that other contest it's over? Yeah, that's the the membership drive. Is he coming in from Houston?
+
+[10:43] I don't think so, but if if he ever gets here, he says he'll he'll come. He's an interesting dude. I don't know how much he wants me to tell you about himself on the air, but I met him at a uh what's it called? What do we call those things? So vide, sous vide low low temperature class.
+
+[10:56] And uh interesting dude. Uh interesting history. Okay, so thank you and congratulations for winning. Any questions on the torch attachment light here, Joel? No, I mean it sounds actually awesome because I've had the problem of obviously use the torch because you want some quick steering on the outside of something, it just tastes gross.
+
+[11:11] Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. This one, okay. So here's the deal, right? The main problem is is that when you're when when uh the reason I first started working on this is that is I'm interested in finishing low temperature meats.
+
+[11:21] And a regular salamander, right? It doesn't have the doesn't have the whatever the polite doesn't have the oomph. There you go. That's a polite way to say it. It doesn't have the oomph.
+
+[11:29] There's a caller, Dave, if you want to. All right, hold on, one second. To finish a low temperature meat. And so uh this does because you can get it extremely close to the surface of the meat, or you can pull back with almost no burn, but then it has a lot of ancillary things, like if you roast a chicken and uh, you know, and it's not quite done at certain points, you can hit it without it getting on that. Yeah.
+
+[11:48] Or like, you know, if you're doing burgers and you don't want to you don't want to steam your burger, you can just throw the chick uh the cheese on top and then melt the cheese out directly with this thing almost instantly without having to like either throw it in a salamander or or cover it so that this burger is steaming. You know, you're useful like uh to help to finish off little parts of the area of a grill when you're not working right. So it's just useful to have around. It pops off and on your torch. Anyway, we're looking forward to it.
+
+[12:11] All right, caller, you're on the air. Dave, Chris from Durham, North Carolina. How are you going? Going alright, going alright. How's it doing down there in Durham?
+
+[12:19] Uh it's pretty rainy, so not great, but uh pretty decent food scene down here. All my family's from New York, and uh we can get some pretty good eats down here. Nice. Yeah. Got a quick question for you about um polyphenol oxidases and avocados.
+
+[12:33] Yes, it's problematic, right? Yeah, is there any way to turn that like kill them in a circulator without changing the flesh? Uh that's a great question. Uh I was looking at the range. It's like 25 to 35 C is I think their optimal thing, but I'm trying to do um like an avocado roulade without using any kind of acid.
+
+[12:51] Right. Uh I seem to remember somebody testing this out. I've never actually tested it myself. I seem to remember somebody. I mean, obviously the trick is to cook it to a temperature that uh inactivates the enzymes without rupturing the cells.
+
+[13:07] And I would guess that you'd want to do something in the mid to high fifties. Sure. You know what I mean? Maybe like 60 should wipe it out, right? Don't you think?
+
+[13:19] 140? 60. I would assume so, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know that you're gonna have that much change at 60. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen to the other products of respiration in the avocado at that temperature, but that's a great.
+
+[13:32] I mean, I would give it a shot and see what happens. Just don't peel a f an avocado. I wouldn't don't vacuum it because you'll smash it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[13:39] Like uh, definitely. Yeah, I would just throw avocados into uh into 60 degree water or even 65, I would try. Because I think uh Bruno Gusot, he was trying to inactivate the enzymes in papaya without ha without doing anything uh to the flesh. And uh Nils and I tried it and we hated it because it intensified that diaper smell that papayas have up here, that nasty baby diaper smell that papayas have uh that I think they have, but they for some reason they don't have in South America, which is why I guess they like them in South America. And if you have anyone here met an American that loves papayas?
+
+[14:08] No. I hate papayas. Yeah, see? Uh so yeah, yeah, no. Right, yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:12] I think it's because we get crappy ones. In South America, they're legit. Anyway, so uh Gousseau, I think was using 65 degrees, so you might want to try that for but then the question is you should uh use uh sous vide um, whatever that, whatever the poly science sous vide application is for the uh iPad just to calculate your time temperature ratios. Now remember though, you don't need it to get all the way to the seed. So, you know, take the take the numbers with a grain of salt, right?
+
+[14:38] Because you're only really penetrating the first however much that is, inch, you know, depending on what kind of avocado. I'm assuming you're using uh Haas or equivalent, not like the dimension. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know how long it's gonna take to penetrate, but you know, the uh sous vide tool, what is what the hell is that thing called again? So you toolbox?
+
+[14:55] Dash, dash. There you go. Uh use that to calculate what your what your time is. And if you try it, please tell us what happens so that we know. Yeah, I would love to test it out.
+
+[15:04] Um it's been a problem for a while, and you know, lime goes great with avocado, but you don't always want to use it. Right. I guess that's true. I guess you don't always want lime, although a lot of times I love myself the lime. But but it's it's an excellent problem.
+
+[15:19] And like you try it out, and if I can think about it, I mean I I like we swim in avocados uh in my neighborhood. They're basically free. It's like it's like cheaper to use avocados than packing peanuts in the lower east side in some places when you buy 'em. But uh but try try to give it a shot, and if I can remember to do it, I'll try to give it a shot and see what happens. Okay, cool.
+
+[15:36] One more quick question about Dragon's Beard video you did. Yeah. Whenever I do it, it just sets up like a rock. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Um, what do you mean like a rock?
+
+[15:45] Like how much like a rock? Like a soft rock or like a hard rock. You can't put a dent into it? Yeah, even when I microwave it, which you mentioned in that video, it's if I can't get my finger through it. I don't know what the if I'm cooking it too long.
+
+[15:56] It's a little bit more yellow than yours, and I don't know if it's just going too high, but I mean my probe says it's going to one thirty-three, I think is what you said. Well, I think that's the that's the finish, but uh I think I pull it at like one thirty-one or one thirty-two. Go back and look at the go back and look at the thing again. You're add but you're and you're adding the corn syrup? Yeah.
+
+[16:15] Hmm. I mean, just try cooking it to like a degree or two lower so you see what's what's going on. Uh it's not crystallizing though, right? It's still staying clear. No, it's not crystallizing.
+
+[16:25] Yeah, so I mean, uh it's best not to have to nuke it because if you have to nuke it, we well is Dragon's Beard Candy, for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, is a candy where you cook sugar to a particular point. My memory is that the finished temperature should be at 133 with a little bit of uh with a little bit of corn syrup added uh to uh prevent crystallization. And um what you do is it has to be this exact texture that it's a solid but still bendable uh when it when it cools down, and you form it into a donut and then you stretch it at all the time, putting it through uh cornstarch or a mixture of uh cornstarch and cocoa or mixture of cornstarch and whatever other powdered flavors you want, and folding it and stretching it, folding it and stretching it until you stretch it into the into the width of cotton candy. It becomes like cotton candy. It's called Dragon Spear uh in China.
+
+[17:14] In uh in other places like Iran, it has uh other names like uh I think they call it Pecmesh. Uh no, Pekmesh is the other thing. What's it called? Anyway, so I forget. Uh Pecmesh is uh the grape molasses, right?
+
+[17:26] I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, it's called something. Uh so so and a lot of cultures have this thing, and then uh but the issue is is if it's too soft, it'll just blast apart on you. And if it's too hard, you can soften it in the nuke, but when you if you're not extremely quick, it'll chill, and when it chills, it hardens and then it'll rupture, sometimes explosively. It's quite amusing to watch me getting covered in things and yelling and screaming and cursing when that happens.
+
+[17:50] Uh but I would try just going a degree or two lower and then uh letting it come like letting the thing uh the temperature rise as as it comes off the thing. Are you not altering the batch size, are you? Uh I cut it in half once, and then I tried to do the full one because it's just me in my apartment. I don't need, you know, two pounds of candy. I've never tried it with a smaller batch size, and it might be that the batch size you're getting a faster rise in temperature with a smaller batch size.
+
+[18:15] The larger batch size was just as hard as the small one. Uh the first time I did it, I had it in half, and it got up to temp in like 17 minutes. Maybe that was the issue. Yeah, yeah. But I'll give it another shot and let you guys know how it goes, along with that avocado thing.
+
+[18:29] Alright, cool. Thanks, brother. Alright, thanks. Keep up the great work. Love the show.
+
+[18:32] Uh-huh. Thank you very much. All right. Anna writes in, and by the way, Anna busted Nastasha, female listener, totally busted. She's married.
+
+[18:41] Oh. Oh, wait, so wait, she's not a woman now? She's not a woman because she's married. What the hell's that? That was why she didn't yeah.
+
+[18:47] Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, but n Nastasha's point was that we have absolutely no female listeners, and not only a female listener, but one from Budapest. So Well, now my point is we have no single female listeners.
+
+[19:01] Or or or none that are interested in me. Right. Right, right. Okay. So anyway, uh fur further trials with Dulce de Leche.
+
+[19:11] Here we go. Uh Anna writes in. I just wanted to give you a shout out that I've listened to all your episodes and currently up to date with the podcast. Thank you. Uh, you guys make my base baking sessions at home even more entertaining, and I have learned a great deal from you, which uh for which I'm very thankful.
+
+[19:22] If you were still not tired of my dulce de leche questions, it really can't be enough dulce de leche questions, right? I mean, it's a good product. The banging you might hear is from the lunatics upstairs, I guess they're like, they're beating a tree to death. There's trees growing on top of us, and I think they're beating a tree to death. Oh, really?
+
+[19:38] I don't know. Well, in order to build a tree house, you have to beat a tree to death. Okay, so uh dulce dilation. Here's uh uh dulce de leche. Here's a new one.
+
+[19:45] Uh, how do I prevent the sugar in dulce de leche from recrystal uh recrystallizing? The cream turned out uh beautiful the way you told me uh it would, but after a week or two it started having little sugar crystals in it, and we would like to give it uh homemade dulce de leche to our guests at our wedding. And if it's not married yet, not married yet, at the wedding, yeah. Uh and it would be nice to give them something that stays smooth. Should I put golden syrup in it?
+
+[20:07] Thank you very much in advance. Hi from Budapest, Anna. Okay. It's not sugar per se, that it's not table sugar that's causing uh the graininess in your dulce de leche. It is lactose.
+
+[20:18] And what happens is that when you heat the uh and concentrate the the milk, making the dulce de leche, you all of a sudden put the lactose in a position that it is super saturated once it cools. And so over time, lactose will A crystallize and then B, form larger and larger crystals, agglomerate until the lactose crystals get to a point where it tastes sandy in your mouth, at which point very difficult to get rid of them. Now, I you should be able to reheat your dulce de leche in like a water bath all the way up. You have to go above 93, I think, or above, you know, 85, 93 to get it to go redissolve again. I don't know how long you have to keep it there.
+
+[20:59] But that's not going to solve your problem because what you want to do is give it as a gift and then uh and then have it stay good for a long period of time. So uh, you know, that's probably not going to help you. The reheating it. Okay. Now, the way that they do it, the way they do it in condensed milk, right?
+
+[21:15] If you're I know you're not making dulcetal lache from condensed milk because you were doing it the old-fashioned way, but the way that they make sweetened condensed milk not have this problem is they add miniature lactose, very, very fine lactose seed crystals as it's cooling down. And by doing that, they seed it with such small crystals that the crystals are small enough that you don't uh sense them in your in your on your tongue. Okay? Also not an option for you. Although it might be possible to add a small amount of uh sweetened condensed milk to the dulcetal leche as it cools down to seed it with the small crystals.
+
+[21:48] I don't know how much you'd need to add, and you'd want to add them when the stuff is around 35 uh Celsius, at a place where it's still liquid enough to move around, uh, but that you know it's uh not hot enough that it's going to dissolve the C crystals. Okay. Uh also this is probably not going to work out for you. There are various stirring regiments and cooling regiments, but I couldn't find one that reliably worked, right? So here's down to my last one.
+
+[22:13] See what you think about this. You can buy lactase. Lactase is the enzyme that breaks down lactose into its two constituent sugars. Okay. If you add lactase to uh the milk, which you can, I think get at pharmacies, right?
+
+[22:27] Because people who are lactose intolerant can buy lactase and put, or you can just buy lactose uh uh free milk, but you know, you could do it yourself because you might have a milk that you like, right? You add the lactose to it. The lactose will break up uh the lactase will break up the lactose, but right, see, lactose is necessary in the thing, in the in the mix because it's a reducing sugar, right? So that's a reduced, so straight sucrose uh I don't think inverts enough into the uh dulcetylchee to provide a reducing sugar such that it's gonna get uh adequate browning. So some people use glucose, they add glucose, which re but speeds up the browning sometimes too much, which is why you have to limit the amount of glucose you add.
+
+[23:03] But if you break down the lactose, it'll still have uh its reducing sugars when you break it down. And according to uh advanced dairy chemistry, volume three, lactose, water, salts, and minor constituents. If you add uh, you know, a lactase and convert a mere 30 or or 40% of the lactose in the milk, then that's enough to prevent recrystallization of the lactose as it as it cools down. So go buy that, add it to the milk, let it sit around for a day, then make your dual state of Huff should not crystallize. Although please run a test before your wedding because I do not want to ruin your uh your your wedding gifts out out to your people.
+
+[23:39] Another interesting thing I read about in that book uh is that I'd always assumed that the baking uh soda that people add to the dual state alH was there to enhance the myard reactions by making the product more basic. But it also turns out uh that it has another purpose. Now I'll just read it directly from advanced dairy chemistry. Uh gluc uh, where is it? Um bum bum.
+
+[24:01] The mixture of milk and sugars is first neutralized with calcium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate. So they're they're using baking soda or or uh calcium oxide, to obtain a pH of 7.0 or a titratable acidity equivalent to 2 to 10 milligrams of lactic acid per blah blah blah blah blah. Uh neutralization avoids the destabilization of casein micells as a consequence of the decrease in pH during evaporation, which in turn is due to the concentration of calcium phosphate, the formation of organic acids from lactose degradation, and the hydrolysis of phosphoric esters of caseins. So there's actually acid being formed in the milk as it is being boiled down, which can lead to the destabilization of casein micells. Did not know that.
+
+[24:38] Didn't we have a collar date? Colour, you're on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi.
+
+[24:43] I'm calling I've got a s slightly strange question. I want to know about the process that you think of emulsifying beef tallow. Just straight up, you know, if you were to trying to make a foam or a froth, say, could you like run it through an ISI container or use a hand blender? And then once you did that, if you could do that, what would you stabilize it with? I mean without uh straight beef fat.
+
+[25:08] Huh. So I mean you're gonna want to add if you're gonna add an emulsifier to aerate the beef fat, you're gonna want to add something that is um uh lipophilic, right? So you're gonna you're gonna add uh probably um mono and diglycerides or lecithin, right? Right. But I've never like you'd have to somehow aerate it and keep the aeration stable so that you could chill it, right?
+
+[25:34] Yeah, and that's that's where I'm sort of scratching my head. Like you can sort of maybe get it to you know be like a delicate snowflake for a a few minutes, but how do you get it to stay that way? Mmm. Hmm aerated fat aerated straight fat, not like aerated I mean it would be easy if you uh emulsify the stuff into a water base, right? And made a fake cream and then kind of whip that up like like coo whip, right?
+
+[25:59] Yeah, of course. Like cooip with but you but you want straight fat. Straight fat. Yeah. Uh well let me see chocolate is mostly straight fat and I gotta remember what they use to emulsify chocolate when they make the aerated chocolate stuff.
+
+[26:12] Oh that's interesting. Yeah. I mean of course there is other so there's solids in it, but there's no other liquids in chocolate, right? Right. So and cocoa butter is a little I mean it's firmer, obviously firmer than beef fat, but you can set the sucker up.
+
+[26:25] Uh I mean, if you were to whip air into it, right? Yeah, then wait until it's almost kind of until it started to set up. And you might need to add an emulsifier like monondiglycerides are like less thin or something. Well lesser thin, yeah. Less than might work because that's what they have in chocolate.
+
+[26:40] They don't put monoglycerides in chocolate. And then uh put it in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum on it so it aerates the same way that like Wiley's aerated foie works, or you know, that's interesting. Yeah, okay. Heston's aerated chocolate or any one of these things, and then um, you know, put that sucker in ice water uh to set it. You might be able to get it to you might be able to get it to work.
+
+[27:01] That's cool. I will uh screw around with it and see what I can get it to to land on. Thanks for the ideas. Hey, no problem. And if anyone else out there has an idea, tweet it on in and we'll tweet it back out.
+
+[27:10] Great, thanks so much. Thank you. Oh, oh, you thanks. Paul Peterson wrote in about the dairy-free ice cream we talked about last week. Just listen to last week's podcast and have a thought about non-dairy ice cream.
+
+[27:19] I don't have my full recipe with me at the moment, but I make mine using soy creamer, heated low on a burner to incorporate sugar and often other flavors, uh, e.g. mint, and then I cool it in the fridge overnight along with a can or two of coconut milk. The next day I scoop the solid fat off the top, blend it with the rest of the base, and then freeze it as indicated. The recipe is surprised many people when they're told it's dairy free, and it's nearly impossible to taste the coconut flavor. Paul Peterson.
+
+[27:40] And uh in addition, uh Ellie Nasser wrote in uh Dave Ari uh regarding dairy-free gelato, modernist cuisine at home makes awesome flavors using nut butter, juice, oil, and cornstarch. Remember Nils and I remember that one we used to make styles like years ago, the pistachio? And then Modernist Cuisine made the same one, and then we were demoing in the same, like, but different. Sorry. Yeah, but the trick with nut butters, if you're gonna use nut butter in a non-dairy ice cream, sucker has to be smooth.
+
+[28:05] Smooth. Which is why, you know, if you're gonna use commercial stuff, a lot of the natural products, like they're kind of grainy. Whereas, you know, you know, our good our good buddies at Jiffy and Skip know how to grind those peanuts until there's some tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles so that you can't taste them. And when we were using nut butters to make them uh back at the FCI, uh, you know, we were we were we were first blending them, we were first robokooing them, then vita prepping them, then putting them in a Santa wet grinder to reduce the particle size down to you know almost nothing, and then spinning them in a centerfuge to further get the the the larger particles to settle out so that we had a super creamy thing. And so we got a super creamy result.
+
+[28:44] Your results may vary. Uh uh, okay. Um should we take a quick break? Yeah. Okay, welcome back uh after our first commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[28:58] Today's program has been brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service. Founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father, Cam Lee, rolling press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks, uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical-free production process. For more information, visit rollingpress.com, and we're not going to be able to do that.
+
+[30:28] The song is for uh Harold McGee. He wrote one of my favorite books called On Food and Cooking. You ever want your eye a souffle who rise? It's about gas expansion and water that big bowl is. Yeah, food science rules.
+
+[30:55] His knowledge race. And I answer he sings a day. He's got big brains. It wears a sweater vest, Iconic Harold. Yeah, he's better than you.
+
+[31:29] And just like me, you wanna be a part of his food science crew, or at least I do. Maybe not you, but isn't it obvious? That crazy belt Harold, and he's all shiny for my science fell, and I can't wait until the day that we meeters don't know who'll be the best of friends. What's talk about my reactions? My favorite line, Harold McGee, he's better than you.
+
+[33:08] But I wasn't directing towards you, didn't I? No, it's in general, this in general. I like that. I like that table over there. He watched me.
+
+[33:20] There's a person from Boardwalk Empire here. Yeah, the guy with the killed off one in the second season. I haven't watched it yet! Oh god, whatever. Okay.
+
+[33:31] Well, thank you. Uh we will uh call Harold McGee and ha make sure he listens to that. I wouldn't, if I had known, I could have called him beforehand and had him listen. Well, I don't know what he's doing. He's probably in some other country right now.
+
+[33:41] Who knows? Yeah, he's always flying around the world being Harold with his fabulousness, his mired reactions. Uh Jay Matthew Miller writes in. By the way, Jay Matthew Miller, patent attorney. Said so on his uh on his on his email.
+
+[33:54] Uh hey there, cooking issues gang. The pumps for the New Orleans public water system lost power over the weekend because of a fire in the power generation facility. The loss of power caused a loss of pressure in the water system. As a result, they've issued a boil water alert recommending that everyone bring water to a rolling boil for 60 seconds. Our work coffee machines apparently heat watered at 180 degrees, which is then either kept in a thermal carafe or on a hot plate, so at a temperature for at least a little while.
+
+[34:20] Is 180 degrees Fahrenheit, 82.2 degrees C, hot enough for whatever might be lurking in that water, or is there really a need to bring it to 212 degrees? Uh thanks, love the show. Keep up the good work and can't wait to hear about the Kickstarter. Well, uh, we already talked about the Kickstarter. But uh you are exactly right.
+
+[34:36] Your coffee machine well here's the thing, right? You got two problems here. Water might taste like dirt, right? Might be crap. If that mean like and I don't just mean literally crap.
+
+[34:44] Like the water might taste bad. Now, uh that's not gonna get solved by uh by the boiling, right? Although I guess you could flock stuff out by boiling it, right? Anyway. But um here's the thing.
+
+[34:55] Uh you don't need to heat it up to the boil. In fact, I found some very interesting articles on water pasteurization in places like Africa. Now, uh, in places that don't have uh safe water, or if there's an epidemic going around and they issue a water boiling thing, the problem is it takes a lot of resources to bring actual water to the boil. It takes a lot fewer resources in terms of wood to burn, fuel to use, whatever, to bring water up to a lower temperature. So there's a bunch of articles out there uh that show that in fact uh heating to 65 degrees Celsius is adequate, uh, you know, assuming that everything is heated through to 65 degrees Celsius, is adequate to assure that you uh pasteurize your water such that it's safe to drink.
+
+[35:38] Uh I mean, assuming it doesn't have some inorganic crap in it that's you know, like poison. If it's got poison in it, then boiling's not gonna help it anyway. Poison. Uh so uh they what's really cool is that these guys have developed these, and if you go to, I think it's like solarcooking.com or something like that, uh, these guys have developed this really cool system for use in in places without power, uh, where you make a trough and the sun is heating the water and they have a little vial of a little air-filled vial that has a um solidified soy protein, uh not soy protein, soy fat in it. The soy fat melts at exactly 154 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's in the top of this vial that's fl that's weighted down but is like floating in the water, and you can and the it's down at the bottom, which is the coldest part of the water.
+
+[36:21] And if you look at it and the fats run to the bottom of the tube, it means it's melted and your whole thing came to temperature. So it's a quick verification that your that your stuff is worked, and then you just re melt the fat, invert it, and it's ready to go again. So, yes, uh, it's something I didn't know about. Uh this uh whole uh solar solar pasteurization of water in places, but there you have it, sixty-five. So sixty-five being below eighty two, eighty-two should be good.
+
+[36:46] Right? That's a kind of good question. Okay. Um at uh Barriatua writes in Are there any can't miss technical food events in New York City at the week of March twenty sixth? Nastash, are there any technical food events in the week of March twenty sixth?
+
+[36:59] We're doing something at the Boulet uh kitchen, test kitchen. Yeah, but that's just Bruno Gusseau is coming in and doing a thing, and then we're just going to like chill out for him, right? They're teaching a class? Yeah. Well, there you have it.
+
+[37:12] A chance to see the great Bruno Gusseau at David Boole's test kitchen. There might still be space available. I have no idea. We're supposed to go in and just shill out from a little bit, right? They should go to www.l e c R E A dot com.
+
+[37:28] Wow, I just couldn't pay attention to what you're saying. Say that again. Hey, like me. Are you on zappos? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:33] I am. L-E-C-R-E-A.com. Oh, Krea. Yeah, Krea is Bruno Gusseau's uh school. Anyway, okay, okay.
+
+[37:43] Hey guys, I gotta jump in. What up? March 27th, Heritage Radio Network Second Salon Party, which will be on the hunt for the city's best vodka cocktail. Maybe not the most tech event, but still pretty cool. I mean, uh, we make a pretty good vodka cocktail.
+
+[37:58] Okay, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh at Cut Hancock. And there's really there's other ways to read that which are not as uh family friendly.
+
+[38:06] But at cut at Cut Hancock writes in, what is the name of the Apple Preserve in England? I'm traveling to London in two weeks and was hoping to visit. Thanks. Oh, there's not going to be much there now, I think, on the on the trees figured out, but it is the Brogdale, the Brogdale. Uh, and it's it's at it's in Kent uh in a town called Favisham.
+
+[38:23] It's called the Brogdale. Nastash has been there. Nastash and I have been there now a couple times. Or no, you went once and I went once with McGee. Okay.
+
+[38:30] Uh all right. Um let me see. I don't know. Do that one last because I'm gonna scream about it for a long time. Okay.
+
+[38:37] David Wilkie writes in from Huntington Beach, California. Where is that, Sus? On the beach. Duh. Is it north or south?
+
+[38:44] South. Oh, okay. Over where you're from. Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[38:47] Uh about eggs. Hey, Dave, Nastasha et al. I recently read uh HCP blah blah blah uh about how to make a naked egg. You just search how to make a naked egg. You can find it.
+
+[38:57] I know it's possible to dissolve the shell off a raw egg using vinegar, which leaves the raw egg intact uh in a semi-permeable membrane. I also know that this ruins the flavor of the egg completely. I popped one open and fried it up post-dissolve. It was awful. Solid vinegar in the shape of a fried egg.
+
+[39:12] Not just vinegar, though, there's also a lot of dissolved calcium in there, and the calcium's gross. Because if you've ever eaten an eggshell, eggshells are not so bueno. You know what I mean? And so, like that calcium, what you're doing with the vinegar is you're taking the calcium carbonate that's in the shell and dissolving it in a solution. So you're probably also getting a nasty calcium taste on top of the vinegar taste.
+
+[39:29] So it's probably a double whammy of nastiness. Anyway, whatever. I also now know you can dehydrate a deshelled egg by soaking it. By the way, here's what doesn't work. You cannot re-eg it.
+
+[39:38] You can't like take the egg after you've dissolved the shell and then put it in calcium hydroxide and have it reincorporate into uh into a shell. A couple people have said that you can, and I tried it. I've tried it like five different times. You can't do it anyway. Why would you want to?
+
+[39:52] Uh I don't know. Like, you know, someone's like, well, I'm gonna like take an egg, like reform it into a new shape, reharden the shell. Like, you know how this you know like the Japanese square egg makers? Right, right, right. Yeah.
+
+[40:02] Which but they, you know, they make squared eggs out of shelled eggs, not out of eggs in the shell. Right. So anyway, whatever. But uh someone said, Can you do it? So I was like, no, no, no, I'll try it.
+
+[40:10] Back when I had more time to try things, and it doesn't work. Doesn't work. Okay. Uh back to Dave's questions. I also know that you can dehydrate a deshelled egg by soaking it in corn syrup.
+
+[40:19] I'm not confident this will make it taste any better, if not somehow worse, so I haven't tried it yet. What got me excited is learning that if you deshell a raw egg in vinegar, then dehydrate it. You can rehydrate it in water. If the raw egg absorbed the flavor of vinegar, I'm thinking it also absorbs some of the flavors present in the liquid to rehydrate it. So why not deshell and dehydrate a raw egg, then rehydrate it with chicken stock or any other flavorful liquid?
+
+[40:42] That's just the first one I thought of. It seems you would be uh you'd be able to get a unique intensity of flavor that would be much different from pickled eggs or tea eggs, and the egg still being raw allows it to be used in other preparations and form. Formza. I'm imagining preparations uh like flavor-infused fried eggs, for example. Uh so the first issue I'm having is dissolving the shell without ruining the flavor.
+
+[41:00] Uh, and then after that, how else could you go about dehydrating it without corn syrup? Will corn syrup osmosis harm the flavor? Is there a better method maybe storing with desiccant packs, blah, blah, blah. Well, no, I don't think desiccant pacts are gonna work. You're probably gonna want to use osmosis, otherwise you're gonna have otherwise you're gonna have some problems.
+
+[41:14] The issue is look, the real question is what we don't know is what can make what I don't know, I should say, you might know, is uh what can go through. The key thing is semi-permeable. So the question is what can go through and what can't. Uh clearly, if the inside of your thing tasted like vinegar, then vinegar can make it through the membrane, right? Clearly, water can make it through the membrane.
+
+[41:33] That's why osmosis is working. Uh can protein make it through the membrane? I would guess not. So, you know, uh, can other peptides make it through the membrane? Meh, I don't know.
+
+[41:44] So the the question is which flavors are going to be able to transfer through? Like, can you get sugars through? Can you get, I mean, clearly vinegar you can get through. So it's a question of what can go through and and what can't. Uh as a question of what you can do uh for flavoring it.
+
+[41:59] But it it it sounds interesting. I have to give it kind of more thought rather than just a morning thinking about it. This is the kind of thing that, you know, as Joel is saying, McGee has probably thought of once or twice. Probably. He's he's thought of everything.
+
+[42:10] He well, yeah, he's he does think of it, because he just sits around thinking, and he doesn't tell you about it until he's pretty sure he's right. That's the thing about McGee. He doesn't just he doesn't just go spouting off. Uh so um I wouldn't think desiccant packets would work because what you want to do, you don't want to have a case hardening situation, which you would probably get in the membrane, you probably turn it into a thing. Uh also I would go with a very high acid vinegar so that you could dissolve the shell extremely quickly and not wait for all the acid to diffuse through the membrane if you want to get less in.
+
+[42:40] So go buy if you go to Russian stores, you can buy 10% vinegar, which is pretty hardcore. Uh I have some. Remember, Stas, when we went to go get Kavas and I bought all that 10% vinegar? 10% vinegar, badass. And then you could probably also uh neutralize the vinegar somewhat, although that will still leave some acetic taste if you've ever tasted uh acetates, different acetates, uh you know, uh vinegar salts.
+
+[43:01] Anyway, but uh give that a shot. Sorry, I do not have more good information with that. Um wait, we have we're we actually have a little bit of time. We do. I sped through that so fast.
+
+[43:13] Uh, by the way, Jason uh Bizant wrote in to you, Nastasha, just checking is this the correct email address to send a question? And clearly, since I'm reading it, it is it is uh would love to call, but I live in Tasmania and then in Parents, Australia. Like, really? You're calling out the Australia, you're not like Tas Tasman Pride that you're just like, I'm from Tasmania. Like, we don't know where that is.
+
+[43:32] You gotta remember, everyone in the United States grew up with the Tasmanian devil. We all know where Tasmania is. Like, ask us any other like country or place. We have no idea where the hell it is. But like everyone's like, Tasmanian devil, I gotta look up where that thing comes from, and they go look at them, right?
+
+[43:48] I'm pretty sure I don't know where Prague is. No, yeah, but Tasmania? Absolutely. Yeah, hell yeah. As far as I'm concerned, this is the Tasmanian devil writing in to cooking issues.
+
+[43:57] Yeah, right? As far as you know, Tasmanian devils are like kind of awesome. Like, because like you've seen their mouths when they open their mouths? No. Oh man, just Google the Tasmania because Dax, my son has done this many times.
+
+[44:08] He's like, Tasmanian devils. He's like, who would win? A Tasmanian devil or a Wolverine. I was like, Dax, that just doesn't come up. That just doesn't come up.
+
+[44:15] You know? Uh okay. Uh Al Salstrom wrote in. Can one use gentian, quinine, etc. as beer as a beer bittering agents?
+
+[44:28] Do different herbs produce noticeably different bitter flavors? Obviously, hop flavorslash aroma involves a lot that goes beyond that, but I'm curious about the differences in bitter compounds. Okay, look. Bitter, unlike acid. First, I'm not going to get into like what I believe and what I what I don't believe or my uh the fact that I'm freaked out that different acids have uh different flavors even though they're non-volatile and even though they don't all have bitter components, right?
+
+[44:53] I don't I still don't fully understand why it is that malic acid tastes different than citric acid. But to a first order approximation, sourness is a relatively simple flavor in that uh it it it activates one type of receptor only in your tongue. Uh ditto with sugar. Different sugars have different flavors because they have different onsets of sweetness and different different uh aftertastes and different off notes, for instance. I hate stevia.
+
+[45:19] Can we buy IHate Stevia.com or is that already taken? I can check. Does anyone like stevia? Oh god, no. No, this stuff sucks.
+
+[45:25] Like, just hey, I'd rather have no sugar than have that stevia crap. That stuff is ruined. And then they're like, well, I came up with a way that I can mask the awful taste of the stevia. Me too. I don't use it.
+
+[45:35] Sucks. It feels like I'm like I'm chewing on a soap bar. Yeah, it's awful. And like you're like someone will hand it to you, and then it like it leaves this poisonous aftertaste. It's horrible.
+
+[45:44] The domains available. Oh can we buy I hate stevia dot com? Jack, can you buy that? It's fifteen bucks. Yeah, we'll do it.
+
+[45:53] Done. Boom! Anyone out there who wants it, write in and we'll give you an email address at I hate stevia.com. Okay. Do the other one that you want to buy.
+
+[46:03] Which one? I hate. I hate which one. I hate.me. Are you?
+
+[46:07] Oh, is that available? Everyone hates that one. Oh, yeah, everyone hates.me. That's available? Yeah, because I just opened the Montenegro.
+
+[46:13] They just opened the Montenegro website, uh, you know, domains.me. And so I was gonna get everybody hates dot me, and then I could be like, I'm David, everybody hates.me. That'd be pretty awesome. You want to buy that one too, Jack, while we're at it? Indie Jesus.me also available.
+
+[46:29] Oh! But he's the only one that can what what what would his address be? Me at indiees.me. Yeah. Uh okay.
+
+[46:37] Back to the question. Back to the question. Stay on task. So, um so here's the thing. Uh coup couple of things with bitterness.
+
+[46:46] Uh so sweetness is like a a similar receptor, sourness, ditto salt. Bitterness i there are many different bitter receptors on your tongue. So uh there's all these different uh umami, I guess also, uh s what one one set of things. But bitterness has many different receptors, and so there are consequently very many different types of bitterness. In fact, uh I taste a lot of bitter things, but I I'm a very low taster for prop, which is what they use to determine whether so uh depending on our genetics, you know, some of us will have either a very, very strong reaction to the chemical prop, who's I can't remember what the name of the thing is.
+
+[47:25] Right. And those people in in general uh are l are called super tasters, and it used to be thought, and by so some people still is thought that your ability to taste prop uh correlated with the number of taste buds and therefore how well you could taste uh other things. Uh Professor Zucker at Columbia says that's a load of horse hockey, but whatever, you know, nobody knows. So uh so prop, you can uh totally lack the gene for tasting prop, and you're called a non-taster, or you could be a regular taster somewhere in between. You guys ever taken the prop test?
+
+[47:57] No. Yeah, you put the strip on your thing, and some people will think it just tastes like paper, and some people will be like blah, and then some people be somewhere in the middle. I can bear barely, if at all, taste it, right? But other bitter compound compounds I'm extremely sensitive to. So uh, and it just is this one category of bitter receptors that you know I'm deficient in.
+
+[48:15] Stasi, well, what's your stuff? Do you like I don't remember? You don't remember? No. Uh anywho, uh so the the the point is is that bitterness can be very different depending on your doing what you're doing.
+
+[48:25] But it's like you know, quinine, super freaking bitter, you know what I mean? So you can use it, but it's not gonna be the same bitterness that you get in beer. Now, bittern and and you can get many beers. There's a the old form of beer uh was called uh one of the old forms was called uh gruet, uh and it's uh herbed beer without hops. Remember, hops, although in use for a long time in beer in uh Germany and in that area, didn't spread throughout the rest of Europe until relatively late, like in the 14-15 hundreds, right?
+
+[48:56] Uh, and didn't become dominant until like around that time, I think 14, 15, maybe even a little bit later in every area. And so some people have even tried to bring back beer styles that don't have any hops in them. I mean, most notable were the ones I used to get. There's a Scottish beer company, and I have it somewhere in this mass of letters that I have on my thing. But I've tried their beer.
+
+[49:14] They have a Heather beer, they have a kelp beer. I like the Heather beer, but not the Kelper. And a pine beer. The pine beer I actually really liked with spruce. But hops is not the only thing it's not the bitterness is not the only reason it's there.
+
+[49:30] Also, it's there because hops acts as an antimicrobial as a preservative in beer. So if you're gonna have uh uh a hop free beer, you want to make sure that you're not gonna have other things growing in it. Now, hops, the article to look at uh is I have it here written down for you. Uh beer spoilage bacteria and hop resistance. And you can get the whole thing on the internet.
+
+[49:56] And it has a really interesting history of hops using and and what it's doing. Hops destroys what are called gram positive bacteria. So bacteria divide one of the ways to divide bacteria roughly is into gram positive and gram negative bacteria. And it was based on this guy, Graham from Denmark, these Danish people, Danes. Uh no offense, love danes, love danes.
+
+[50:15] Anyway, so uh he this developed this way of staining bacteria to look at them under the microscope, and you know, didn't didn't really understand the significance of it. It turns out that it it's actually quite significant, not just to whether or not it stains a particular color, but to what the outside of the like what the outside of the bacteria is, whether it has a uh you know an extra lipid layer on the outside of the bacteria. So it actually is a good way to determine like whole different sections of bacteria. Anyway, some gram positive bacteria of interest are uh lactobacillus and uh Petiococcus, and these bacteria are some of the most common spoilers bacteria in beer, giving it nasty ropiness and kind of lactic off flavors, right? And hops nukes those things, right?
+
+[50:58] Whereas gram-negative things like acetobacter, it doesn't get as heavily affected. And right now, actually, it's weird. There's some there's some uh lacto uh there's some lactic acid bacteria that are becoming resistant to hops and they're becoming of renewed interest. Uh and when I was reading this, I learned here's some other nasty ones. Here's some nasty uh all uh gram things that aren't killed by hops.
+
+[51:19] Ready for these? Uh pectinitis, which provides extensive turbidity and an offensive rotten egg smell. And my favorite, megasphera, the production of hydrogen sulfide causes a fecal odor in beer. That's my favorite part of beer. My favorite is the fecal odor, which makes this bacterium one of the most feared organisms for brewers.
+
+[51:38] Right? Good news is no one kill you. None of this stuff will kill you. My brother's actually a brewer. Really?
+
+[51:43] Yeah, he owns a brewery and uh just started up called Thimble Island Brewery in uh Brantford, Connecticut. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Thimble Island, you know, I never went out there. Here it's nice out there though.
+
+[51:51] Thimble Islands. I was actually on one of those tour boats when I was a kid, and I was I was a first mate. Yeah? And then I got fired. For hopefully not for excessive Thimble Island beer drinking.
+
+[52:01] No, no, no. I I fell asleep and he ran over a buoy and he got mad. Uh yeah, well, there you have it. Yeah. Buoys.
+
+[52:09] Booyah. But anyway, yeah, so uh he hasn't run into a fecal smelling uh problem in his beer, but I'm gonna make him aware of it. Well, why don't we ship them a uh uh a sample of megasphera bacteria can mix it in and we can make some some strong some thimble island fecal beer. Do you think that would sell in Brooklyn? It seems like some people would catch on to.
+
+[52:26] I I guarantee you it would sell out here. So all you gotta do is tell them that it makes them more hip. They could put on their Grato headphones and drink their fecal beer and they'll they'll love it. Alright, which brings me to the last thing before we have to leave No, okay, I love you, Brooklyn. Come on.
+
+[52:38] Okay. Which brings me to my last thing. Uh Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, right? We're all familiar with the Miller High Life, correct? So Miller High Life, we serve it in the bar in the little miniature pony bottles, which these tiny bottles, as a garnish.
+
+[52:53] If the beer is a garnish to a salty drink we make called the Corsair. The Corsair, we we uh we spin clarify, we blend and spin clarified lemons, not to make them 100% clear, but just to make them thinner so that they work in a shaking drink and to get rid of a lot of the albedo, which we melt with uh pectin X ultra SPO. So preserved lemon, uh Moroccan style, hence Corsair, you know, Moroccan pirates, and uh lime juice and tequila, and makes a super salty drink that I like, and then we serve it with this little uh like pony of Miller High Life as the garnish. Now here's the thing. Uh how is it for all of because everyone knows who thinks about beer that hops when expos hop compounds, right, which is uh humulones get decomposed uh in war in the wort boiling to isohumulones, which are the actual bidding bittering agents that are soluble in water.
+
+[53:43] Uh so it's isohumulones that are there, iso alpha acids as they're known, and these suckers in the in the presence of ultraviolet light, right, uh break down and form skunky components by scavenging sulfur in it. And a really good uh really good um treatment of it that I thought was very readable and seemed accurate from what I can remember and what I know, is Light Strike in uh in advance uh Light Strike Advanced Brewing uh by Chris Bible. The guy's name is Chris Bible. How can you forget it? But he has a little web article that's really nice on it where he actually tells you what the compounds are that are being broken apart in a very readable way that I thought was very good.
+
+[54:19] So go check it out for stuff on Light Strike. But here is the interesting part. Miller High Life comes in a clear bottle and does not get skunked. How do you do it? I don't know.
+
+[54:30] Yeah, right. Neither did I. They use uh these uh uh hop acid extracts that have been dorked with so that they don't skunk out anymore. And on the way out, I'm just gonna read you what they do. Um under under Chris Bible's section, another approach of protecting beer from light strike.
+
+[54:47] Apart from storing beer in light proof containers, which is duh the right way to do it, except for the fact that Miller High Life's bottle is so awesome that you don't want to mess with Miller High Life just to keep the beer good, right? Kidding. Uh but the uh kidding. Uh so apart from storing beer in lightproof containers, the photosensitivity of beer can be reduced by chemically altering the isoalpha acids so that the chemical precursor to the photochemical reaction responsible for producing light struck, aka skunked flavor, is not present within the beer. Iso alpha acids can be converted to reduced isoalpha acids by hydrogenation or by reaction with sodium borohydride.
+
+[55:22] Three major types of reduced isoacids can be produced dihydro, tetrahydro, and hexahydro. Interestingly, I don't have time to read the whole thingamajig, but interestingly, they still break apart when they're hit by light, but the stuff that's broken apart doesn't form the nasty skunkiness. And this is how Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, can maintain the clarity and beauty of its pony-sized bottles without having the skunk flavor. Thank you, Joel! Till next week, cooking issues.
+
+[55:53] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage Radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a non profit organization.
+
+[56:14] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed and grass finished beef. For more information, visit Hearstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the back of Robertus Pizzeria in Book Reap Brooklyn, joined with is Joe still on tour? Yeah. How's it going, the tour? Pretty good.
+
+[1:12] We just checked in with him. He's uh he was on the road driving to Austin, doing a million shows in between, screaming his brains out. Nice, screaming his brains out. Good call. Uh okay, so not with Joe, but with Jack and of course always Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:24] How are you doing, Mastada? Good, thank you. Yeah? Two and one? Good.
+
+[1:27] Call your closures to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Gonna get right into it today. Morton Madsen from Denmark writes in. Hi Dave et al.
+
+[1:37] Question on quail eggs. I've been making a quail egg recipe based on the NOMA cookbook called Hey Smoked Quail Eggs. I'm not gonna pronounce it like he writes it in Danish, like I can pronounce that thing. Herberged vi vagtaleg to leg. What do you think?
+
+[1:51] That's pretty good. Yeah? Alright, okay. Uh in the recipe of the eggs, although you know what? I was in Denmark for a day, and like it's so weird, it s doesn't sound like uh whatever, anyway.
+
+[1:59] Okay. In the recipe, uh the eggs are blanched for one minute, 30 seconds, then cooled, then blanched for 50 seconds, and then cooled again to set the white. So the idea being to double blanch, I would presume. I don't own the cookbook, I haven't read the recipe, but the double blanch, I assume, is to hit the whites as hard as possible without overcooking the yolk. I mean, it seems to me that's why.
+
+[2:19] That's why. That's the guess. Okay, after this step, the eggs are peeled. The recipe then goes on to smoke the eggs for 20 minutes with hay and then pickle the eggs before they're served with smoke from a smoking gun. For my recipe, I skipped the hay smoking step and instead put the eggs in a water bath at 64 C for 45 minutes to slightly set the egg yolk.
+
+[2:37] By the way, six uh 45 minutes way more than you need for quail eggs. Quail eggs cook through in like under 15. There's the they're so fast. Remember, uh the the speed at which like you double the size of something and the amount of time it takes to cook through to the center for a given set of uh variables is multiplied by four, not by two, and the same thing goes in the other direction. You reduce something by one half, and it's a quarter of the time it takes to cook.
+
+[3:03] So it quail eggs cook incredibly quickly. Anyway, which is why presumably they're only blanched for 30 seconds and then 50 seconds. Okay, okay. Uh my question is the following Is there any easy way to peel the eggs? He stumbled upon one of our favorite things to make other people do, which is peel quail eggs.
+
+[3:19] Rice? I used to love doing that to interns. Peel these quail eggs, and then we sit there and yell at them when they ruin them all. Okay. Is there an easy way to peel the eggs?
+
+[3:27] As of now, it is a pain. I've used a pair of tweezers and carefully peeled them. That sucks. The time spent per egg is long, and even still I end up destroying half the eggs, true. I do seem to struggle with the fact that the membrane of the quail eggs seems to be extremely tough.
+
+[3:40] You're correct. Uh I do prick a small hole to puncture the air cell in the bottom of the egg. Without this, the egg white above the air cell does not set as much, presumably due to the insulating effect of the air cell. So far, I've tried to use older eggs. Uh uh as uh at least for chicken eggs, older eggs are easier to peel.
+
+[3:56] And you're wondering why this is the case, which I'll explain in a minute. I've tried modernist cuisine trick of blowtorching the eggs to make them easier to peel. However, this result uh resulted in either exploding eggs because of excess heating or too little to no effect on the peeling. Do you know what the desired effect of the blowtorch is? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's to uh uh dry and expand the shell at that one point to help it pull away from the membrane.
+
+[4:16] The whole point well, we'll get we'll get into it. By the way, Paul Adams, our our buddy and popular science writer who is testing our our blowtorch thing on a jiggy right now. He says that uh the torch thing is good for peeling the eggs because you don't get the scorch marks on it. Anyway, nice. Um however this results in exploded eggs or blah blah blah.
+
+[4:35] Do you know what the desired effect of the blowtorch is? Is it a question of generating steam beneath the membrane to detach it, or is it to dry out the shell or something else? At least some combination of all those things. I've read that pressure cooking is sometimes employed on commercial scale to cook eggs, since this could make peeling easier. I, however, see no way of doing this on the s uh on the small quail eggs.
+
+[4:52] I do, however, make sure to have a rolling boil when I blanch the eggs. Maybe I can steam my eggs from the vent uh on the pressure cooker. I've also seen examples of people removing the shell with an acid but expect the egg to become inedible after this treatment. Another consideration will be using the technique seen on this video, and I'll tell you what the video is. Um the video is this guy, and you can get there's this one, there's also a crazier, crazier one of a guy with like a hardcore Scottish accent and no teeth.
+
+[5:17] I think it was Scottish. Anyway, so you hard-boil the egg, you break the egg on the t-on uh like a little bit on two sides, and then you put your mouth over it. Here's where Nastasha starts cringing, and you literally blow the egg out of the shell. You keep the you keep the shell uh intact on the sides, you create air pressure behind it and blow the egg out. And I've seen it on the YouTube a couple of times.
+
+[5:34] Let me just say this is not recommended procedure if you're going to serve people uh food. No. No. I mean Nastasha would do it and serve it to you, but she wouldn't want you to do it and serve it to her. Mm-mm I wouldn't do it.
+
+[5:46] You wouldn't? For your own egg you'd do it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[5:50] Okay. But uh that technique brings an interesting question. If you are going to do soft so I'm gonna start with something you didn't ask because it's my nature. It's in my nature to do that. We uh used to have a thing where we would try to circulate uh soft quail eggs at 62 and 63 Celsius, right?
+
+[6:07] So the egg the white's still kind of really gloopy. And then the question is how do you crack them out of the shell the same way that you crack chicken eggs out of the shell that are at 62 and 63 because it's almost impossible to do it you know normally by just cracking it and opening because as you rightly point out the membrane of the quail eggs is incredibly tough. So here's the way to do that we uh the little quail egg toppers the little quail egg cutters they look like cigar cutters you uh you take the egg and you clip both the fat and the thin end of the egg so that you have air hitting both sides and then you can shake out the uh the egg gently onto you know whatever you want toast or whatever and I found that we get almost zero breakage when you're getting when you're taking quail eggs out that way. So we went from almost entire breakage where we'd have to you know get twice as many quail eggs as we needed to almost no breakage when we're doing quail eggs that way. So it's just clip both sides and shake it out.
+
+[7:01] And what reminded me of that is that is head freak Show blowing the egg out with his uh hard-boiled egg out with his mouth. Okay. Um the the the article you should first of all the article you should read in general, and it's available on uh the internet for free is the effects of cooking methods on peelability and peer and appearance of eggs by Kenneth N. Hall and Hong Wan Li out of 1997 in Good Old Stores, Connecticut, up there at Yukon where they did the study, right? If you have a copy of uh Stedelman's uh Egg Science and Technology, that's an okay reference too, but really just for a succinct um you know description of what's going on, that that 77 uh article is great.
+
+[7:42] So here's the deal. Uh old eggs are better for two reasons, and it depending on who you go to, even on the egg uh dairy council, egg board or whatever it is, incredible level egg, they they will only talk about one or the other of the reasons why older eggs are good, but not both at the same time. Here's what happens. As eggs age, CO2 leaves. As CO2 leaves, the uh egg whites become more alkaline, right?
+
+[8:05] Uh and simultaneously the air sac between the two membranes and in the fat part of the egg becomes larger. As that membrane becomes larger, there's more air in there, and air between those two membranes facilitates peeling, and so that uh facilitates peeling. However, the increased uh alkaline nature of the egg white also debonds the protein or makes the protein bond less strongly from the white to the membrane and therefore also facilitates peeling. So it's a dual effect of increased air in that egg in the in the thing and of um and of increased alkalinity over storage, which is why very fresh eggs can be difficult to peel. In the 1977 study, they uh they they found that piercing the the fat end of the egg where the air sac is does not necessarily help in peelability.
+
+[8:51] The bad news is is that the the actual data for all this stuff is all over the map. Pressure cooking, right? It turns out that the majority of the benefit, first of all, also you're gonna get better peelability if the eggs go into hot water. All the studies show that putting in cold water and bringing it up, it causes the eggs to be less peelable. Although there will be more cracking of the eggs if you put them into hot water initially.
+
+[9:15] But the eggs that don't crack and get destroyed that way will be easier to peel if they go into uh simmering or boiling water as opposed to being brought slowly up from cold. All right. So though that those are two things that affect it. Also, the way you crack it affects it. So the the way that they uh they if you if you go on the internet and you want a fascinating thing, look up egg peeling machines, and you can sit there and watch these machines various ways peeling eggs, but they all do some variant of the uh crack and roll to break the shell up into a bunch of pieces but leave the membrane intact so that you then can peel it off without it shatter without it um without it ripping the egg.
+
+[9:51] So there's that. But this the pressure cooking is very interesting, and um I've never done this technique, but I looked into it and it's it's mentioned in the article from 1977, and a lot of uh stuff was done on it, I think by Hit Hip Pressure Cook, who you know we've spoken to on the uh on the Twitter a couple of times, and she she might have written in here once, I don't know. But uh she was doing uh pressure cooking of peeling eggs, and and the here's the deal. Uh it turns out that it's not, and it's written in the 77 article, it's not the high temperature of the pressure cooker that is in fact making the eggs easier to peel. What it is is is you do a quick release of the pressure uh after they're cooked, and the quick release of the pressure causes uh the shells to like pu puff out a little bit from the egg and rupture and therefore make it easier to get the eggs off uh to get the shell off of the egg.
+
+[10:39] So the question is how can you do that in a quail egg because quail egg uh cooks so fast? Well, you have to be quick on your toes which means if you have to be able to get your pressure cooker up to pressure extremely quickly like extremely quickly and by that I mean very fast so uh you know like you want as much water as you can in there like a small load of eggs uh close it or if you have an autoclave or like a Frankie commercial pressure cooker that can get up and down like in a matter of seconds you might be able to get the eggs out fast enough to not overcook them. I don't know. But it's it's definitely the pressure uh going you could also probably literally just uh put the eggs under pressure in like an ISI or something like that uh and then just vent the pressure real quick and have the eggs pop open but I'm just thinking of that as we're saying I I haven't really thought of it. I haven't I mean I've thought of it because I just told you about it but I I haven't tested it because I just thought about it.
+
+[11:26] Uh one I had one last thing to say on egg egg peelability but it's out of my head. I guess uh it doesn't exist anymore. It couldn't have been that important. I feel like it was very important but you know who knows? I'll never remember because I don't remember what I've already said and what I haven't said.
+
+[11:39] Anyway I hope that's somewhat helpful uh on eggs and their relative peelability. Okay. Uh Ivan writes in on Vermouth. Hey Nastasha Dave, Jack, and Joe Although Joe, no shouts to you because you're shouting your head off out there in Austin right? Yeah.
+
+[11:53] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah if you're not here no shouts if you're not here. You know what I mean? No love unless you're in the studio.
+
+[11:59] That's how that's how it works. Uh there is an Aaron Fairbanks in the studio. Oh Aaron uh Aaron Aaron from Heritage Radio Network you want to come in and make a pitch for the radio for the radio network Aaron while you're in take a short break from talking about Ivan's Vermouth question to do a pitch for the uh for the Heritage Radio Network and all the good things that uh they do. Welcome, Aaron. How are you doing?
+
+[12:20] I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Yeah, nice. Nice. I like it.
+
+[12:23] I like a little pop in. Anyone feel free to pop in as a uh you know, guest. So uh so what's going on? What's going on with the Heritage Radio these days? Now what's not going on?
+
+[12:30] Things are blowing up. We've got tons of great people coming through the studio to do interviews. We're reaching out to college campuses across the nation, trying to get the most radical progressive thinkers and food coming to the network, sharing what's going on in their communities and just building on the existing stuff, like the great work you guys do on cooking issues. Yeah, man, we wanna we wanna be giving space for all voices. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:56] That's why that's why we have Musta Nastash and I are together because you know, we uh never agree almost, right? I mean, she won't talk about it on the air, but you all know how she feels because I'll go off on it. So that's what you need. Speaking of uh people disagreeing on air, how are we doing with the uh Museum of Food and Drinks series? We're gonna it's gonna happen, right?
+
+[13:13] It's totally gonna happen. I'm super excited. We get some amazing people in here. What we wanna do is have strong conversations where people are maybe yelling, but not yelling necessarily over each other or particularly at each other. Um but I think yeah, moving forward, looking to hear from your guy Peter, and then we're gonna rock and roll.
+
+[13:30] Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, we are we're already uh talking about some topics that we're gonna bring up. And uh I mean I think the format is gonna be probably that I'm just gonna ask questions of people, moderate them, and hopefully, you know, at the end of it, we'll have to break out the Crisco for the big wrestling match, right? You know, I'm more of a fan of jello pudding, but if Chris goes away to go, you are the expert. Well, we can we can go either way.
+
+[13:51] I mean, I was thinking more of like kind of you know, uh trying to pick up a greased pig. I'm more of a gr I never went to a jello wrestling thing, but I have seen people try to pick up greased pigs, and it's hilarious. I'm thinking more again at the college campus outreach, you know, it's just a thing that students relate to. The jello thing, yeah. Yeah, I see.
+
+[14:06] I'm too old. I don't know, you know, it's to me. I'm like, you're wasting all that jello, all that knocks. Could have been used for something good. Anyway.
+
+[14:13] Anyway, I do want to I do want to make a little pitch for membership. I mean, the cooking issues, uh, team cooking issues listeners are definitely uh one of our primary sources for membership, and that's really the one of the main funding streams that keeps the station going, allows us to build out new programs to bring you more Dave, to bring you more Nastasha. And to buy us more, and pizza. Yeah, thank you to Robertas. Thank you to everyone who sponsors and everyone who supports, and we hope that you know, you out there listening, will want to be part of that too.
+
+[14:47] Yeah, nice. Cooking issues. Earth ranch grass-fed beef. Oh yeah! Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in Central California.
+
+[16:11] Whoa. Hearst Ranch, grass-fed beef, free range, sustainably produced. Humane. Hearst ranch, grass-fed beef. The authentic flavor of the American West.
+
+[16:30] Woo. Damn Skippy. Damn Skippy. Love that thing. Okay, new new competition.
+
+[16:41] Submit your cover version of the Hearst Ranch grass-fed beef song. Oh yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[16:48] What do they get? Hearst wrench beef. Grass-fed beef. That's fair. That's what they get.
+
+[16:54] That's fair. That's fair. That's fair business right here. I'll make that happen. Alright.
+
+[16:58] I like that. Alrighty. Uh, okay. Oh, uh, speaking of which, Jack, we have a question later. I'm gonna give you some heads up right now.
+
+[17:05] They want recommendations in Brooklyn. I have a couple of. Oh, we connected with John, yeah. Yeah, but you know that I have uh like an aversion to crossing water unless I have to. Not really.
+
+[17:14] I mean, I'm not afraid of water or bridges, but I'm just joking about it. But like, you know, Nastasha and I, I don't never eat out. Nastasha eats out all the time because I got the kids. I'm I'm home with the kids. But um Nastasha eats out quite a bit, but prefers to eat out in Manhattan.
+
+[17:25] But we have some recommendations for Brooklyn. But think about it. Think about it for a minute. I was thinking Nastasia would handle that one because she's Miss Brooklyn, you know. I heard she was opening a restaurant in Brooklyn, actually.
+
+[17:36] Yeah, right? A uh craft beer bar, actually, Jack. Well you know, we could really use a craft beer bar out here in Brooklyn. I know, there's nothing out here. You can't, you know.
+
+[17:45] Anyway, there's no there's no Brooklyn pride or love of beer out here. None. None. Cocktails, forget it. No, it's just nothing.
+
+[17:52] Nothing. Nothing. It's all McDonald's out here. Okay. Uh Ivan writes in.
+
+[17:56] Hi, uh, Anastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. First, love the show. Discovered a few months ago. I've been making my way through the back catalog. I'm around episode number sixty.
+
+[18:03] Ouch, you got a long way to go. Uh, right. Just skip it all. It's all useless, no, I'm kidding. Uh, you've made my commute much more fun and helped uh quite a bit with my cooking knowledge.
+
+[18:12] I've recently got my hands on some wormwood, and I'm thinking about making my own vermouth. I live in Toronto, and the iron fist of the provincial alcohol monopoly only gives us a very limited number of choices. Martini and Rossi, Cenzano, Noy Pratt and Stock. And not only oh, uh not only that, they charge you way too much. The tax in Canada, I was shocked.
+
+[18:30] Shocked. I went to Vancouver a year and a half ago with Don Lee, the master of all, like kind of back of the like the Don Lee, master, anyway. So um, it turns out that uh bottles of Hendrix there are like little gold nuggets, and we were able to carry them around and trade them for large amounts of delicious sandwiches uh from the street trucks because your alcohol laws are so nutty in terms of the uh uh the taxes there. Anyway, I I digress. More to the point, they're all sold in largest bottles, which sit for month months in my fridge, eventually going flat.
+
+[18:58] Uh flat meaning I guess oxidized, not flat, because they're not carbonated anyway. I'm a home consumer and my wife is not particularly fond of vermouth cocktails. You gotta work on that. You gotta work on your wife there, Ivan. Gotta get, you know what?
+
+[19:10] If you got the higher quality vermo is it, if she likes cocktails at all, right? Unless she's only a citrus cocktail person. If you get the right vermouse, you can probably get her on the on the Vermouth Vermouth cocktails. Um okay, uh first of all, before we even go any further with the rest of this question, hold on a second. Uh like I'm gonna say this.
+
+[19:26] What you should do is get a bunch of smaller bottles, get your vermouth, bottle it in the smaller bottles with almost zero head space, cap them and keep them in the fridge, and they'll last almost indefinitely that way because they won't further oxidize, right? Once once the once you've gotten all of the air out of them. All right. But uh so I would say that uh and then you have a question in a second about like how to make your own. I'm gonna get to that, but first caller, you're on the air.
+
+[19:52] Hey Dave, it's Mike from Fort Collins, Colorado. How you doing? Good. How are you? All right.
+
+[19:58] Uh I got a question about using a circulator for making cheese. I'm wondering if you've ever done that and you know how I'd go about doing that. No, I mean, uh so presumably the for those of you that never made cheese before, one of the critical um one of the critical aspects of uh the production is exactly the temperature to which the uh curd is heated during the renting thing because it determines a lot of things about the final pay structure. Presumably that's why you want to do it, right? Yeah, exactly, because it's easy to scorch and stuff.
+
+[20:28] Sure. Uh so the problem with uh I mean uh the the main problem with it is is that I mean you can't directly circulate it or you'll completely gum up the works, and you know, you don't want to have that much movement in the thing. So, you know, you could you could do um bath in bath in bath, you know what I mean, where you where you stick a uh like a stainless steel like half hotel pan into a like a lexan, fill it, you know, put it up with water, clamp the clamp the hotel pan down to the lexan with uh with spring clamps so that it doesn't pop around because I'll tell you what that's irritating, having had it happen to me many times. Uh and then circulate it. The problem is is that your heat transfer is going to be quite limited.
+
+[21:11] So it I mean not limited, but in other words, uh when you're heating with a uh a a a flame or something like that, right? You know, you're using a large delta T and a hue and a large thermal input in there to get the temperature up relatively quickly. Now you'll get a relatively large thermal input but your your delta T between what you want in the curd and what you're heating with is going to be uh you know minuscule. Now you can set the water bath like ten degrees Celsius higher than you want to go and then just monitor very carefully and you won't scorch but you still have the problem that you might overheat it. And then at the end you can turn it turn it down so that it it gets up.
+
+[21:46] But that that's an easy way to do it. Now if you for some reason wanted massive circulation once you once the stuff breaks and you and you have we and reasonable size particles you can wrap a um you can wrap a circulator in cheesecloth. I don't know that I'd recommend it though because I've never seen a recipe that requires that much agitation like a circulator would provide. I don't know what it would do to the to the the structure of it to have it like literally pumping through like that. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[22:15] Yeah I feel like all recipes want it to be pretty stagnant. Yeah. I mean or like you know the such stirring to the extent that they want to you know accomplish certain things or if you're cutting the uh or if you're cutting the curd apart like in a cheddaring process or any one of those things or you're breaking it but not like constant pumping around. I've never seen a recipe that advocates constant pumping around. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:36] Yeah I haven't either. Yeah. But try the bath and bath and give yourself like a like a like a delta T of like maybe 10 C and then when it starts getting close you can turn it down and then you can like soak it at whatever temperature you want for you know however long you want. I mean the circulator is fantastic for that. Cool.
+
+[22:53] I'll give it a try and let you guys know how it goes. Alright, yeah, good luck. Uh tweet us over on someone tell me what happened. Cool. Thanks.
+
+[22:58] Alright, cool. Back to Ivan. Okay, so uh now where I last left you, Ivan, uh, I was trying to help you keep your vermouth lasting longer. And by the way, when you come to the United States, buy yourself some, because we have an amazing selection of vermouths nowadays down here that are a ma delicious, and buy some and bring bring them home and then you know, trade them on the street for sandwiches. Uh, but you uh you continue.
+
+[23:19] I've looked at recipes online, and they all suggest boiling the botanicals in a bit of the wine for about 10 minutes and then mixing it with the rest of the wine, sugar, and fortifying with brandy. The problem is this would also yield a full bottle size, which would end up going equally stale. Although I told you you could solve that problem by putting them in like micro bottles and then only using what you need. Also, uh a vacu van on the top of the bottle in between uses in the fridge uh is uh is is also helpful with that. Um I thought a possible solution would be to infuse the botanicals in the brandy at room temperature, filter them, and then have the vermouth base that would last much longer.
+
+[23:57] In this way, if I uh have a glass of white wine left over, I could just mix in an adequate uh proportion of vermouth base and sugar and have a truly small batch of homemade vermouth. As a side benefit, I could use the same base for sweet or dry vermouth just by altering the amount of sugar uh and whether it gets caramelized or not. Do you think this procedure makes sense? Are there any issues I should take into consideration? And as a side note, the spice herb ingredients change a lot from recipe to recipe, but other than wormwood, which you know, you don't actually technically need wormwood, but wormwood is the source of the word.
+
+[24:23] Vermouth, wormwood, you know, vermouth. Anyway, uh I don't even know what language I'm imitating, some sort of Germanic thing. Okay. Uh, do you think there uh are any can't miss botanicals in a vermouth? Looking forward to having vermouth forward cocktail with my own product, uh, because you are partial to the martinez.
+
+[24:39] Uh well, I mean, I like uh I like uh verm vermouths and um you know that kind of aperitif thing with uh I like some with quinine in it, you know, like quinato with quinine. And you can get the uh the bark uh conchona bark or you can buy, I mean, I would do that. That's probably easier to do work with, but you know, the classic things. Uh people put things like uh oregano and rosemary and stuff, but Nastasha's making a vegan face over there. Uh but you can also put in sweeter things like uh vanilla or uh citrus peels are very popular.
+
+[25:10] I like classic other things like gentian. I like oris, but I don't think that's classic. I don't think people would normally put oris in, but I like oris, but you gotta be careful with it. I like things like fenigree, but you could add almost anything. The you know the issue is you don't if you add like a million different things, you get that kind of spice door smell.
+
+[25:25] Also, bear in mind that when you are using these botanicals, the quality of the botanical varies widely depending on the source and therefore the strength of it. So it's very difficult to follow a recipe written in grams that's made with a dried spice because the actual uh potency of that dried spice can vary over, you know, I wouldn't say in order of magnitude, but at least a factor of two or three times, right? Uh and and they can be very different. So like when I I like coriander a lot. Uh and so there are various different kinds of coriander.
+
+[25:54] Some have more of a citrusy note and some some don't. So you just gotta be uh careful of that. Now back to your regular question is can you steep it in the high proof? So the reason that they ask you to do it in the low proof and then for the fortification is to make it last longer, okay? And to bolster it.
+
+[26:07] The reason they have you infuse it in the uh in the wine first and then add the other stuff is so that you don't boil away too much alcohol, right? That's the reason. Um sugar is also gonna add to the preservative. So you could uh you know, you could seal a seal a bag or seal a uh a uh flame-proof bottle with a cork. Don't seal it so that it can build pressure and explode because that would be dumb.
+
+[26:29] And you can heat it there without evaporating alcohol, and that's the way I do hot infusion of liquors all the time. Just be very careful that you're not hard sealing a container that can explode when you put because the liquor is gonna boil uh at a much lower temperature than the water. And you can infuse things that way, and you could have an herbed base. Uh, you know, so you know there are like very bittered herbed uh drinks like Swedish Baska Droppar, which is like this incredibly bitter like uh wormwood uh thing. And presumably you could add it to wine.
+
+[26:57] I don't think the result's gonna be exactly the same because infusing at a lower proof is gonna provide a different result from infusing at a higher proof. However, it might be delicious. You never know. Uh I would, you know, I would I would assume that the results are going to be different. Every time you change how you're infusing something, what the alcohol level is, the temperature level, the length of infusion, all things change.
+
+[27:17] So you might be able to get a delicious um product, but I don't know that you'd get the same product uh you know as a classic classic made vermouth. And also these vermouths are gonna want to sit together and marry a little bit before they get totally integrated. So I'm gonna think that you're not gonna get a hundred percent uh the same result, but you might get uh a delicious ones. I mean, it sounds sounds what you're doing is more akin to uh making more akin to making a bitters and then adding the bitters to the um to the wine, although uh a dilute bitters because you're gonna be adding more than you would for a bitters of a couple shakes. Does it make sense to us?
+
+[27:49] Uh anyway, I hope that helps. I don't think that was very helpful, but there you have it. That's what I got. It's what I got. Um Ryan Bone.
+
+[27:57] I'm gonna, you know what? Ryan Bone wants uh questions about cookbooks, but I'm gonna do that last because I'm probably gonna spool off into into Never Never Land, right? Right. That's because that's what I do. Yeah, okay.
+
+[28:05] So well, Ryan, we're gonna get you last. Uh Bob writes in, thinks that we should name the torch thing Torch Trap. Right. Torch Trap. Yeah.
+
+[28:13] But it sounds like I'm being trapped though. Right. Sounds like it also positive thing. Right. Although I mean it is descriptive, but like, you know, people are like, why would I want to be trapped?
+
+[28:23] I don't want to be trapped. I want to be set free, right? This is what like Bob, this is what what happens when you're dealing with people, like you'll think you have something really good, and they'll be like, then like one idiot is like no, no. This is why any of you out there are in the i i in the like think you're gonna have kids in the near future. Don't tell anyone outside of your partner what the heck names you're thinking of.
+
+[28:45] Because you know what? You don't want to hear it. And by the time you name the kid, no one's gonna be like, that name sucks. Because they can't. They can't.
+
+[28:52] So, like, like we have the classic problem here of too many outside uh people. You know what I mean? And then, like, so I'll give you a classic example of that. Remember the uh the I forget they're were the Ernst and Young, they used to be whatever they used to be. And no, Anderson or whatever it was, uh, the accounting like firm, the consulting firm, right?
+
+[29:09] They're now called Accenture, and that's what happens when you have a name by committee, Accenture. I don't like that name. Do you like that name, Stuzz? Accenture. No, that's bad.
+
+[29:17] That's bad. I mean, no offense if any of the listeners, I'm not saying the company is bad, and the person who uh won that won a huge amount of money, I think, for getting the name right, so they're laughing all the way to the bank. But it, you know, I just I just don't think it's a I you know, accenture. Accenture. Accenture.
+
+[29:32] So it's so it's so name by committee, am I right? Yeah, named by committee. Sounds like maybe it could be a car. Maybe. Although I know the clamp that we're making to uh sell with the torch thing, ain't no one gonna change the name of that.
+
+[29:43] That thing's a jed clamp. It's a jed clamp so that I can say to someone, go jet clamp it. Yes, you know what I'm saying? And I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[29:51] People are like, but I don't I don't get that joke. I don't care if you get it or not. It doesn't matter to me. It's a jet clamp. You see how easy it is when you have a conviction about something?
+
+[29:58] Yes. Makes life so much easier. Uh Sam writes in about Sam KB, in fact. Writes in about Chicha. This one uh got uh Stasza a little queasy because she never thought about it.
+
+[30:10] But uh here we go. Cooking issues crew. I'm five months into a year-long research project in the Ecuadorian Amazon. That kicks some serious butt. Right?
+
+[30:18] Yeah. The Amazon. I've never sp I've never been to the Amazon. I gotta go. Uh uh, you know, I'm fascinated by that.
+
+[30:22] You know, I've been to Columbia a bunch of times, but never down to the Amazon reason or to the Choco. Although apparently, if I go to the Choco, uh I won't come back alive. Like, I might come ship back as a food product, but I'm not gonna like Choco is like completely, you know, unlike it's like everyone everyone from Colombia, and I know you're talking Ecuador, not Colombia, but everyone in Colombia is like, well, what do you think about Choco? Oh, amazingly beautiful. Can I go?
+
+[30:42] No. You know what I mean? It's like not controlled by anyone. It's crazy. Uh because it's whatever, we're not gonna get into it.
+
+[30:49] Okay, um, I've had the opportunity to eat some pretty amazing foods, including fried grubs, smoked cured monkey. You know, that's the one thing I can't co-sign, although you explain later, but I can't co-sign them the I can't do it. I can't do much. Crocodile, uh, arapaima, which is uh the largest freshwater fish in the world, and damned ugly. So ugly.
+
+[31:09] Yeah, Google that thing, Stas. I'm like, you know, go for all uh A R A P A I M A. A big ugly freshwater fish. Uh and a number of four legged animals I cannot identify. Uh I like that you stay away from the two legged animals, just in case.
+
+[31:25] Um uh okay, uh, can't identify. While some of these animals are threatened with extinction extinction, I'm only consuming them while living in indigenous communities whose hunting practices may actually support conservation efforts. In addition to these animals, I've been consuming copious amounts of chicha. Not corn chicha, but boiled a yucca, cassava root, uh, which women and only the women chew spit into clay pots, add water to it, and let ferment for up to four days. The chicha is slightly sour, mildly alcoholic, and has a thick, whey-like texture, uh, not way like, you know, the like kind of, you know, Mexican word for like, you know, ombre.
+
+[32:02] Like whey like whey in milk and whey. Uh fish. Yeah, the fish is ugly. Uh with a noticeable saliva undertone. It's uh actually quite good.
+
+[32:12] My question is, how would you mimic this and reproduce the saliva undertone in the United States? As my assumption is serving human saliva would neither be well received nor legal. Uh not sure the legality of using animal saliva either, probably not gonna be okay. Uh, but if we can eat tongue or blood sausage or horse tartar, uh well, remember the horse tartar thing was a mistake. People weren't supposed to be eating that.
+
+[32:34] That was uh, you know, uh uh what's called fraud in in the Europe. Uh I don't really see why we although you know it's illegal. You could you could have it. Anyway, I don't really see why we couldn't eat fermented llama saliva. I'm interested in experimenting with chicha and other cooking applications besides just using it as a drink.
+
+[32:49] Let me know what you think. Love the show, Sam KB. Okay, first of all, before I get into your question, uh uh hoo-ha recently over the a lion. Someone was trying to uh uh outlaw eating of lion, and so we got a bunch of calls yesterday because uh wrote a post uh a long time ago where one of the things we ate was lion, and so everyone called me to expect me to be some rabid defender of eating lion meat. And in fact, we no longer buy meat from the butcher that we got that from Zymer's because it found it turns out that uh, you know, went to jail for for unsavory kind of sourcing and practice.
+
+[33:21] So we don't use it anymore. But it's an interesting idea. Everything's coming around, everything's like weird. Everything's coming up weird, like lion meat and weird meats these last couple of days, right, stuff? Yeah, it's a good thing.
+
+[33:30] Very strange. Very strange. Okay, back to Chicha. The book that you want to look at is unfortunately extraordinarily expensive. Uh it's like $375 on Amazon, and you know, not that I advocate you downloading illegal PDF copies.
+
+[33:45] I was not able to find an illegal PDF copy. However, you can get all the relevant information by going between Google Books and Amazon, and they both preview different pages. So you can paste together the and that's by the way, that's the classic trick is you look it up on the Google Books, and their previews uh are different from the ones on Amazon. And then I've also looked in international Amazon sites to get previews in between those two to try and piece together like pieces of information I need. But here's what you need.
+
+[34:11] Uh the handbook of indigenous fermented foods, second edition, revised and expanded by Steinkraus. All right. And Steinkraus devoted a career to like really like this is a really kind of amazing book. Uh so they have a section on uh on Chicha. Uh, and it's mainly about maize uh chicha, but it goes into the whole um production.
+
+[34:33] Now, here's the thing. So with maize chicha, there's two ways to do this. So the reason the saliva is working here is that you your mouth has amylase enzymes. Uh, amylase enzymes are enzymes that break down uh starch, well they break down starch into sugar. And your mouth has them.
+
+[34:49] Um so what they do is they chew on starch containing items that usually have been ground and cooked, right, so that your mouth can act on them, right? Not dry. Uh or sometimes just I guess if I guess the flower I think is cooked beforehand, I have to go read it again. Uh you chew on it and then uh you let it dry while the amylase stuff is working. You then grind that and mash it like you would uh typical mash thing.
+
+[35:12] The the end the enzymes from your uh mouth will uh you know uh degrade the starch uh during that process to sugar. The product is boiled to concentrate the sugars and then fermented. Okay. The other way to do it with that'll work with um corn, but not with cassava, is to actually germinate the corn the same way that you would germinate barley malt. When you germinate, you activate the amylase enzymes in the corn itself, and you can then make uh chicha that way.
+
+[35:39] So um what you're gonna have to do is you're not I don't think you're gonna get to use the saliva. Um and this is by the way, not just in South America. This is traditional in all places that had starches and wanted to convert them to uh um alcoholic beverages, especially places that did not have grains that would germinate and provide other forms of amylase enzymes. So this is traditional in many cultures to chew on starch things. Uh and for some reason it's usually the women.
+
+[36:09] Isn't that weird? Yeah. Is it because the women are normally cooking, or is it just because men are gross? I don't know. It's weird.
+
+[36:15] It's usually women. Uh in South America, apparently it's usually the older women. In some cultures, it's the younger women. Weird. Weird.
+
+[36:21] Anyway. Uh so uh here's the bad news uh for you. And uh uh this guy, Escobar, in 1977 did his PhD thesis at Cornell University on chicha fermentation. All right, and this is on page 405 of that book I was telling you about on indigenous fermented foods. Uh and he produced both germinated, this is now remember this is maize, but so it's not directly related to cassava, but produced both germinated chicha and salivated chicha up there in uh at Cornell.
+
+[36:52] Both products were sun-dried and ground uh in a powder mill. The flowers produced were then extracted with water in the proportion of one uh uh one kilo water to 250 grams of flour at 75 Celsius with constant stirring. The extracts were then filtered through a muslin cloth, uh, and they were duplicated, blah, blah, blah, and they were then fermented for six days. Now here's the bad news for you. Chicha prepared by the salivation procedure was clear yellow in color, and it had an alcoholic flavor resembling apple cider.
+
+[37:17] Chicha prepared from germinated maize was darker in color, more turbid, and had a slightly acid taste. Both the chichas were suitable for cont uh consumption after only two days of fermentation. The salivated chicha was judged superior in flavor. So I don't know what to do about that. We could probably find, look, you can just buy the enzymes now.
+
+[37:37] So maybe germination does other things to the flavor, but you can just go buy the enzymes now. So you could probably get some of the amylase enzymes that are used uh by people like uh vodka makers who are taking potatoes and turning them into into vodka and use one of those amylase enzymes. And we tried to order one once, but we never got one in. They are not the same as the brewer's uh diastatic amylase things because they have kind of a more broad spectrum functionality and they work better. There's two there's two main amylases there's beta amylase and alpha amylase, and you can't be sure which one you're getting when you get at a homebrew shop.
+
+[38:08] So we're trying to source the really good deal. Maybe that would make a good spit like chicha. I don't know. Good question. Love those kind of questions.
+
+[38:15] Speaking of, uh last week we had a question on avocados uh about circulating them to get rid of the uh polyphenol oxidases, and uh JM writes in and said, just want to share that at my restaurant we routinely circulate avocados in their skins for 50 Celsius for an hour, and they are then indefinitely free of all browning problems. Regards JM. That's good to know. I would have thought you had to go much higher because in some other things, polyphenol oxidase is not um uh degraded for uh until much higher temperatures are reached. So it's good to hear that that works.
+
+[38:42] Uh someone else give it a test, give me a call back. Blake writes in, why is my stock so sweet? Uh he says, why does my I think, man, I don't know, maybe one. Blake? Uh why does my reduced chicken stock taste sweet?
+
+[38:55] It is white chicken stock reduced to a sauce uh and thickened uh made uh to a sauce to thicken made with conventional chicken wings, carrot, celery, and onion. The stock is not sweet before reduction. Okay, here's what's going on. Uh oh, it is late, but thank you for previous self with Zabayon. Here's what's going on.
+
+[39:10] Carrots have a lot of sugar in them, and onions have a lot of sugar in them, and especially as you reduce it, the the kind of natural pungent flavors of the onion are gonna die back, and the only thing that's gonna be uh remaining is the sweetness. So, what I would do is drastically and carrots, same way. I would drastically reduce, well though not the same way, it's not the same, but the sugar is gonna taste more concentrated as it goes. Uh, in the same way that if you add salt to something and then reduce it, it tastes too salty. If you add sugar to something and reduce it, it can taste too sweet.
+
+[39:40] So I would dial back your uh your vegetables, specifically your uh your onions and your carrots. That's what's going on. I mean, that's the only thing I can think of. You're not adding extra sugar to it, so it's a question of concentration. But give that a try to see what happens.
+
+[39:54] Rolf Wynne writes in, Dear Miss Hammer. I like that. Dear Miss Hammer. Uh thought of a name for the kick uh for the project, torch tamer. What do you think?
+
+[40:03] Like lion tamer? Torch tamer? Yeah. Any thoughts? Uh that was the least enthusiastic sound I've ever heard in my life.
+
+[40:12] She's like, yep. Yeah, you can't hear it. I don't know. I don't like I don't I'm I I'm just reading. I'm just a conduit here.
+
+[40:18] Keep up the great work. The show is one of the best out there. Thank you so much. Tim Haliber writes in uh about rice cookers. Would love to have one device for rice cooking and pressure cooking.
+
+[40:26] Thumbs up or thumbs down on the Fagor Stainless Steel 6 Quart Multi Cooker. That's an electric uh pressure cooker, rice cooker. Uh look. If it works, then I think like why not have it? Although it has happened that I've wanted to pressure cook and cook rice at the same time in my house.
+
+[40:41] That happens actually more often than you'd think, because a lot of times you want rice and you want a braised thing to go with it and the fast brace thing. So a lot of times having a pressure cooker and a rice cooker can be useful. I happen to think that the Zoji Rushi fuzzy uh neuro fuzzy like logic induction rice cooker that I own that's like you know, eight years or nine, ten, no, I don't know, it's old. I happen to think that that's one of the greatest pieces of kitchen equipment I own, and like I would not trade my Zoji Rushi for almost like any one of my pieces of kitchen equipment because it's so awesome and can hold rice for so long without any scorching or bad effects. I love it so much.
+
+[41:14] The other thing is on it, I i I've read on the internets that the Fagor pressure cooker, electric pressure cooker, doesn't get up to a full 15 PSI, which means you are going to be limited. Uh your recipes will not cook. Some recipes want that 15 PSI, uh, and the flavor is going to be different, and recipes won't necessarily be the same because it won't reach the same pressure. So bear that in mind. But I'm not giving that a thumbs up or thumbs down.
+
+[41:36] If you're handy, you might be able to modify it like I did to my Cuisanard to get higher pressures. And you can see how I don't recommend that you do that on uh the blog, which is back up. Okay. Uh at Huggernaut writes in on ice at cooking issues a while back. You mentioned you were discussing the ice program at BDX if people are interested.
+
+[41:51] I'm interested. Oh, I don't have enough time to talk about the ice program, but I promise you, at Hug or Not, Nastasha is now writing down that she's just punching her keyboard with like all five fingers at once, like it's a child keyboard, which I guess it is. But uh the uh the that we'll we'll get that next week. Um okay. Uh Pear Nielsen writes in on kombucha, pronounced like the fruit pear, but with a Scottish accent.
+
+[42:13] I can't do Scottish, uh off the cuff. Jersey I can do. Uh Scottish, come on. I can, but not like off the cuff. It's Norwegian.
+
+[42:20] Hello, Jack, Nastasha and Joe, and the guy who answers the question, which would be me. After buying the art of fermentation, my kitchen has been filling up with various yeast and bacteria experiments. I've been doing some kombucha concoctions, and I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I've made a lemon vervena version after reading the Nordic food lab post about kombucha. Uh I now have two scobies and I'm keen on expanding my experimentation.
+
+[42:41] Do you have any suggestions for other things I can try to ferment using it? I'm gonna try coffee, although apparently I need to throw away the scoby afterwards. Love the show, keep up the work. Uh oh, by the way, so I looked up the Nordic food labs, they're awesome. I looked up, they were doing kombucha on a bunch of different things.
+
+[42:53] Kombucha, what a scoby is is is a uh is a uh symbiotic uh what is it, community of yeast and bacteria. I don't know, bacteria and yeast. It's basically uh acetobacter. Uh it's a uh of there's a form of acetobacter that forms a cellulose uh kind of pad to make this kind of like like scoby thing, and then in it are other acetobacter living, which create uh you know acetic acid, and also um yeasts and other bacteria that generate other flavors and things. The idea is you take black tea or green tea or whatever, uh you sweeten it so that the yeast has something to eat.
+
+[43:27] Uh they produce then uh they ferment it, they make uh flavors plus ethanol, which is converted to vinegar by the acetobacter, bang, kombucha. And people think it has health benefits, blah blah blah. I haven't done a lot of experiments on it because, and this is the one case where I'm like Nastasha. Nastasha hates anything other people like. This is one of those things where like all of a sudden all these people were like, I love this, I love that.
+
+[43:46] And so I was like, I'm not gonna research it, crap on it. But I feel that like maybe that's against like it's against my better nature, so I'm gonna go research. I read a bunch of stuff uh on uh on the internet about it. Um, I would try, I mean, uh, here's what I haven't seen people try yet. I would try uh cocoa.
+
+[44:02] The problem is is that cocoa butter, like you get defatted stuff because fats can go rancid uh over long storage, but I don't think you're gonna have a problem because cocoa butter is very uh resistant to uh rancidity. Uh yeah, and but uh like defatted cocoa might be interesting because it has a lot of the same uh polyphenols that tea has, which is one of the things that, you know, I guess uh I don't know, there's interactions there, uh, which is you know also I guess why coffee is interesting. So I I would try things like that, but I'm gonna try to think more about it. Maybe over the next couple of days, uh I will I will think about it. And I'll talk to Dan Felder from uh Momofuku's uh food lab there because he he's been capped in fermentation and I'm sure he's kombuchified everything in the world.
+
+[44:41] There's an interesting article there on performing kombucha uh on the internet is what I mean. Not from Dan on performing uh kombucha uh fermentation on get this milk. Whoa, milk. Apparently got some interesting uh interesting results. Okay, uh Elliot Pavano, you're right about uh Caramai's tomato.
+
+[45:00] I'm gonna have to get you next time because we're about to get stabbed out here uh with time. Uh John uh John Riper from uh wait, oh, from Seattle. My thing says Seattle, Brooklyn. I'm like, there's a Brooklyn in Seattle? That's crazy.
+
+[45:13] No. Uh is coming to Brooklyn and uh wants to know, right? So this spring, I'd like to spend three to four days exploring Brooklyn, hitting spots that epitomize that part of the world and seeing people in places that would be uh memorable, even if they were somewhere else on the planet. Finding a great bagel or barista would be time well spent. Artisans at the top of their craft, historic spots with a story to tell, and artworks off the beaten path would all be good.
+
+[45:32] Anything food related is especially interesting. If you want a visitor to stay of Brooklyn for the rest of his life, I've seen the best of what it has to offer. Where would you take him? All right. I congrats to Robertus for the Bonapetite shout-out.
+
+[45:42] Well, come to Roberta's. If you got the cash to drop, go to go to Blanca, right? Uh we're gonna meet with John. We invited him to Roberta's uh Aaron and I, and then maybe you guys will all sit down with him, hang out, have a pizza, and uh, you know, give him a good list when he gets here. Uh all right but if he's looking for a barista that'll change his life, I've got two words.
+
+[45:59] Indie Jesus. Indie Jesus pulls a good shot of espresso? Yeah, he's he started as a barista and then he became a server. And he's good? Well, you know.
+
+[46:08] He's Jesus. Yeah. In indie format. Yeah. Okay, so uh oh my god, we're gonna we're gonna get hit by this.
+
+[46:14] Okay, so the uh also, like obviously Andy Ricker Pac Pac is a place you should go. Um there's a lot of places. Uh we'll look, we'll give you a list when you when you when you when you come because we're gonna, I guess we'll talk more about it. But I always say fetsaw too. That's always a fun time.
+
+[46:29] Yeah, all right. I mean, I don't enjoy fun times. I'm just kidding. Uh okay, so uh on the way out, because uh Jack's gonna pull my cord uh in a second. Ryan Bone writes in I'm a computer science and engineering student.
+
+[46:40] When I found out about modernist cuisine, I was blown away with the applications of technology and the scientific method on in cooking. This got me really interested in cooking, so I started playing around with stuff, convinced my parents to get me the at-home version of modernist cuisine. Good job, parents, and have generally had a fun time. But I feel like I'm missing a lot of foundations in cooking. I got Michael Ruhlman's book Ratio, and I've learned a fair amount about baking from that, but I know there's uh more I'm missing.
+
+[47:01] Do you have any recommendations on books or resources that cover the foundations and fundamentals of cooking in a more scientific way rather than a sort of prescriptive recipe type way? Thanks, Ryan. Okay, listen, I mean, on food and cooking by Harold McGee. Just get that. But here's what I'm saying.
+
+[47:18] There aren't that many books out there that treat things from a completely scientific perspective. Uh and uh in addition, you know, it's like people who do present things, chefs who present things from a scientific perspective often get it wrong. No offense, chefs. And so one of the interesting things to do is to read old encyclopedic cookbooks and see how crazy, for instance, their nutritional advice is, or how crazy their explanations for why X, Y, and Z cooking technique works. Instead, I would read McGee for the science.
+
+[47:46] I would read Modernist Cuisine for New Techniques. I would go on all the blogs on the internet. But for the fundamentals, I still recommend going and getting books by people who are just freaking awesome cooks. And what you want to look for, then there's clearly books out there that are, as you say, just prescriptive recipes. But you don't necessarily need the science when you're learning.
+
+[48:08] What you need is someone who has a lot of experience cooking and explaining to you why they do things. You need to learn ways of thinking. So any of the old people that you that you respect, right? So Peter Peterson writes a bunch of amazing cookbooks. For instance, on he has one on sauces, it's great.
+
+[48:26] A lot of times he has explanations in science that I don't agree with, but you're learning the the exp the experience of how to think like a cook through their eyes. Like the old uh two-volume color version of Jacques Papin's way to cook knop from the 80s. Amazing. Um in terms of like how to think like uh see how he thinks. Uh the if you want like high-end stuff, the original French laundry cookbook was amazing because it was showed how Keller approached thinking at the French laundry.
+
+[48:56] Um, you know, like uh these are the kind of books that uh I I would look at now. I'm gonna try to think of a more exhaustive list of ones that have been really helpful to me. I mean, I started cooking a long time ago, so the ones that are helpful to me might be dated. I got Julia Child's uh whatever it's called, the the Wait, the way to cook or whatever, that the big one she had, which you know kind of was one of my first great cookbooks, Giuliano Buggiali's uh one of you know what his larger Italian books I've always had had with me. Uh and so you know you get one or two tomes like this, and they're not teaching you the science, but they teach you, they teach you a mental framework for cooking.
+
+[49:30] And that's what you should look for in uh a chef's cookbook, in chef's cookbook. So get a couple chefs cookbooks, like real chefs, get a couple of teachers' cookbooks. So, like Julia Child was a teacher, uh, you know, great teacher, and Chak Papin, great teacher, you know, from those days, Peterson, great teacher. Uh so get some of those teaching styles to learn, uh, you know, teaching books to learn that kind of way of thinking. And um don't worry so much about the science back.
+
+[49:55] In fact, you whenever you read anyone's stuff, you should be questioning the science behind it. And the only, you know, the only then when you need information like that, go to go to McGee and look and see what he says, right? Yeah. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[50:20] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:45] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five-generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you late and live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Joining the studio with Nastash the Hammer Lubbock. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[1:13] Good? I got Joe back from on tour. Joe, how you doing? I'm doing great. How's it going, guys?
+
+[1:18] Going well. We have no Jack today because Joe thought he'd just handle it all by himself now that he's coming back. Oh, Jack's having a beer. That's fine. So Joe, how was the tour?
+
+[1:26] It was really, really great. Yeah? Went to lots of awesome cities I've never been to before. Chicago, Memphis, Buffalo. Got to, you know, hang out and uh play some tunes.
+
+[1:38] So yeah, yeah. Did you have any of the uh did you have beef on wick when you were in Buffalo? No, I ate Buffalo Wings though. Yeah, alright. They're okay.
+
+[1:45] You know what the thing that didn't travel from uh Buffalo is beef on Wec, which is you take your roast beef and you you have the juice, the dipping sauce there, but they put it on a roll, and the roll is covered in salt and caraway, which is the wick part of beef on wet, and it's a local kind of buffalo thing, uh in you know that area of northern New York. And I don't know why the heck it hasn't spread because that stuff is delicious. Gotta try it, I guess. Yeah, next time you're in Buffalo, you know, look, Buffalo wings, whatever, I guess you have to have some because that's what that they're known for because they put the word buffalo in it. But if they had called it Buffalo Beef on Wec, maybe it would have sold more.
+
+[2:20] Yeah, the the marketing was off on that one. Yeah, no American like whack. I don't want that. Stas, do you want something called beef on Wec? No.
+
+[2:26] What about like like Buffalo roast beef sandwich? Yeah. That sounds good. Yeah, it sounds awesome. Yeah.
+
+[2:31] All right, so Buffalo, anyone from Buffalo out there, remarket your beef on Wec. So uh how many dates did you play? Um we it was six a ri it was six on the way down, then we went to South by Southwest and we played five shows in three days at South by Southwest and then drove back up in three days from I was in Arkansas like two days ago. It was crazy. Yeah, are you a crowd surfing sort of fellow or no?
+
+[2:54] Um generally yes, but uh I don't think that uh it just didn't happen this tour. Really? You weren't feeling it? It wasn't it wasn't necessarily me that wasn't feeling. I was trying to get everyone hyped.
+
+[3:03] It energized and sometimes it's a little hard. Some people just you know, they're sleepy or a lot of buffalo wings. You know what? Up north, so Piper who works with us at the BDXEQ, he was saying that uh he got mad at a really famous rapper who showed remained nameless, it was Buster Rhymes, who went to go play uh, you know, up near where he lives, and Buster Rhymes was mad because you know, all these kids were just sitting and listening to to, you know, him rap, and he's like Buster was like, What the hell? Get up.
+
+[3:31] You because I think, you know, and the the you know, the the the feeling up there from the Vermonters is that you know, if we don't want to get up and dance, doesn't mean we're not enjoying the music. I don't think they understand that give and take. It's hard for someone to give their best concert if there's not a lot of uh movement in the audience. You know what I'm saying? Exactly.
+
+[3:47] Yeah. Yeah, people don't get it. Hey, look, here's the thing, right? Yeah, sure. As a musician, it's your responsibility to kind of go off as hard as you can no matter what the audience is like.
+
+[3:54] But the fact of the matter is, if the audience is into it, they're gonna get a better performance, period. That's human beings. It's not a record, not a record. Right? You're not a record.
+
+[4:02] You're a person. Exactly. I I have feelings too. Yeah, right, bingo. So this in uh Ziploc bags, people.
+
+[4:11] SC Johnson, a family company. So uh Weep Soupy Pot. We pop bam soupy pot from the Nomaku, uh, sent someone who's one of his supporters on the Kickstarter, because uh Weepop's gotten a lot of flack over using the Ziploc bags. We're doing low temperature cooking, low temperature cooking. Most of you, I guess who listen to this know what I'm talking about.
+
+[4:28] It's cooking usually in a water bath at a very controlled temperature. Uh, and usually those temperatures are somewhere in the range of 54 to like 65 degrees Celsius, occasionally higher for certain things for vegetables and whatnot. But anyway, um so cooking uh low temperature with a controlled water bath uh with ziploc bags. And this is a technique I've advocated for uh a long time, and there's been a lot of kerfuffles over it, and I got word from SC Johnson Wax, but you're gonna have to stay tuned because I got a caller I gotta deal with. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[4:57] Hi, Dave. How you doing? Hi, it's Alvin. How are you? Oh, hey, doing well.
+
+[5:02] Good. Um I just wanted to follow up. I put in a uh question of a little while ago about um pop rocks. Oh, yeah, sure. And um, so specifically, what I kind of want to do is make a savory pop rock.
+
+[5:14] I was thinking if I used something like ice mold, it'd be half as sweet, but I'd like to salt the heck out of it. And um, what I'm kind of after is like kind of like a mall-on large flake salt crystal, right? That pops. Is that possible? Uh okay, here's how pop rocks are made.
+
+[5:31] So uh when you take your when you what they do what they do is they take sugar and uh they heat it and turn it into uh you know to candy temperatures, letting rid of you know the um what's it called, the moisture, and they put it under extreme pressure with uh carbon dioxide at those temperatures. Uh then they let it set under extreme pressure. Then when the when they release the extreme pressure, bam, it explodes into pop rocks. And so kind of the crystal type you get is the crystal type you get. You can't grow Maulden style crystals in a pop rocks kind of a technology.
+
+[6:08] So if you're okay with the crystal structure of pop rocks, then you're you're okay. Now you can you or I should say, you could make, I think, there's nothing there's nothing that in the chemistry of isomalt that leads me to believe otherwise. You could make pop rocks from isomalt. Um so you could do the pop rocks uh with isomalt. Uh you might put the salt in before, you might put the salt in uh afterwards in the form of a powder, but uh there's nothing to lead me to believe that you can't do that.
+
+[6:41] The problem is is that I don't see any way that you as an individual, even I I can't, and I've tried I've tried, but believe me, I don't think that we can make pop rocks on our own. I think there are companies that sell neutral pop rocks, which are just sugar, that you're supposed to then mix your own flavors in afterwards. Chef Rubber, I think, sells them. Um I don't know what their batch size is. There's no reason why you couldn't call them and say, if I'm willing to buy whatever your minimum batch size is, could you just make it with isomalt once?
+
+[7:08] You know what I mean? It's not gonna ruin their equipment. You you know what I'm saying? So it's just convincing whatever curmudgeon it is to do it. And they might even be willing to put in some you'd see the flavors have to be heat stable, that's the thing.
+
+[7:19] So if you're going to put a flavor into it other than salt, which is clearly heat stable, uh, it has to be a heat stable uh flavor. But there's again there's nothing in unless you were going to put in something crazy that they think they're not gonna be able to clean out of their equipment, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't do it for you, assuming that you bought an entire batch from them. Yeah, 20 pounds or something. Yeah, whatever it is. I don't know, I don't know what their what their size is.
+
+[7:41] And obviously they'll charge you more for it, but I have not figured out a way to do it uh on your own in a safe manner. So I've that's so far I've never tried it. And that's just because of the pressure needed to uh set it under you need you need to have a a special vessel, I imagine, right? Oh, yeah, a lot. You need a lot of uh yes, yeah.
+
+[7:59] It's uh it's a special vessel vessel that can withstand heat at an elevated pressure. Now I've done like a hundred psi. No, I think it's I forget. It's been a long time since I've looked it up. I think it's higher.
+
+[8:11] The highest I've ever set something uh with CO2 is a hundred and twenty-five PSI when I was doing uh I was doing jello shots and I set them at 125 PSI, and that is a sharp bubble, but it's not but you remember when you're when you're doing candy, the temperatures of the candy are much, much higher. You could tr look, you could try it. You could the problem is you can't do it in a normal soda bottle because soda bottle can't withstand that kind of uh uh pressure, right? Right. Sorry, sorry, temperature.
+
+[8:38] Here's what you could do. You could melt if you have a Cornelius keg, the problem is Cornelius kegs only go up to about 125 Psi. So, what you would do is is you'd melt out your candy, and then um, you know, you'd keep it hot, then you'd throw it into your Cornelius keg, put it under as high a pressure as the Cornelius keg can take, and then shake it back and forth to agitate it and let it set. I think that's safe, right? Because it's all stainless, it's down at the bottom.
+
+[9:02] It's gonna be a nightmare to clean, but I don't think 125 PSI is gonna cut it. I mean, you can look it up and see, but I don't think 125 PSI is gonna cut it. Cool. Thanks. No, no, no problem.
+
+[9:14] But if you do try it, remember, check to make sure you think it's safe beforehand, because I'm just thinking of this off the top of my head. But if you do try it and you're successful, that's something that everyone would want to know, so please send it on in. I will, thanks. All right, Alvin, see you soon. Uh okay, back to S.
+
+[9:28] C. Johnson Wax. Uh a family company. Did you know that? Yes.
+
+[9:33] Yeah. Uh so anyway, what that means is they're not publicly owned, they're run by a family. So uh the problem is that uh S. C. Johnson got back to uh Grant Aikitz because of a video he was doing uh, you know, for millennia, uh using Ziploc bags and low temperature cooking, and said, don't do that.
+
+[9:48] At least that's what the word on the street is, and by word on the street meaning Grant told me that. Uh so then after that, there's a number of other chefs who were saying that uh, you know, their impression is that Ziplocks were unsafe to cook in, X, Y, and Z, and then because it became known that SC Johnson wasn't supporting it, a lot of other people were wondering why it wasn't supported. Uh long story short, I called up SC Johnson Wax, and SC Johnson Wax, the person who picks up the phone was like, you know, press that big giant, oh my god, someone's asking a question that I need to ask one of my superiors about. And they kept pushing that big red button. I went up the chain uh until I finally got in touch with um uh uh Michelle Johnson.
+
+[10:27] I think no relation. I don't know. I don't know whether she is a Johnson from the SC Johnson. It is a family company, but I don't know if she happens to be in the family. So here's what I said to her.
+
+[10:36] Uh she asked, you know, who who it who from S. C. Johnson told me not to use Ziplocks. Here's my exact email to her. Uh howdy Michelle, I was not contacted by S.
+
+[10:44] C. Johnson, a chef colleague named Grant Aikitz was. There are several other chefs who also warned against using Ziploc in low temperature cooking. And the word on the street is that uh SC Johnson does not support low temperature cooking in Ziplocks, probably because of the presumed uh contact with Grant. Here's what I know.
+
+[10:59] This is me writing. Ziplocks are made of polyethylene with no plasticizers added. Ziplocks have a minimum of residual solvents compared with other polyethylene food grade films I've used. Ziplocks are rated by SCJ for reheating foods, and Ziplocks are not rated for boiling, primarily because of structural integrity issues, not toxicity issues. Low temperature cooking uses thermostatically controlled water baths that are accurate within uh 0.2 degrees Celsius, and the applications using Ziploc Ziplocks are always done at temperatures below 65 C.
+
+[11:26] Because some low temperature recipes cook for as long as three days, 72 hours, uh up to 65 degrees C. Some people think the bags will somehow become toxic after that length of cooking. I disagree. Given these points, I would like it, I would like it if SC Johnson could put their official stamp of approval on the use of bags or explain why I shouldn't pee uh teach people this technique, best Dave. Uh and here's what I heard back.
+
+[11:53] Ready? This is from uh this is from Miss Johnson. Here is what they are. Uh Ziploc, this is directly from SC Johnson Wax, a family company. Ziploc brand bags are designed to withheld being held in high temperature water, including being used up to 82 degrees Celsius for up to seventy two hours.
+
+[12:16] Boiling uh so that's it. So I mean, I wouldn't boil them, but and and I gave her the the I gave her the number eighty two, so you know that's where she's it might go a little bit higher, but there it is, direct. They are okay with Ziploc brand bags designed with uh stand being held in high temperature water, including being used up to eighty two for up to seventy two hours. Bang, bibby bang, bang, there you go. Safe to use according to the company, uh safe to use as far as I know.
+
+[12:43] Uh the one thing that I'd caution on is that they are not good for uh long term preservation. I wouldn't count on them as being oxygen barriers in the way that you count on a another bag uh and especially 'cause you're not packing it using a vacuum, you're packing it using uh the water technique. But that's good news, right? It's great news. So someone please come back at me and tell me why I'm wrong.
+
+[13:02] Call me an idiot, I'm sure you will. Hey Dave, I think we have another caller. Oh yeah? Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave and crew at Brian San Francisco, how are you?
+
+[13:12] Doing all right, how you doing? Good. Um so I'm looking on ideas in food and you can probably Google it at the same time as I am. Um and they have a recipe for Meyer lemon vinegar there. Okay.
+
+[13:24] And they say they take cut lemons, water, sugar, and yeast, and then throw 'em together for a few days, and the vat of liquid starts bubbling, then they strain out the solids and let the fermentation uh begin in the open air. And um my question is is this is a pretty unique way of making vinegar. I've never seen this this this before. Usually you know you have the vinegar mother and some old wine. So this is trying to create I guess a lemon wine first with sugar.
+
+[14:01] And so my questions are um what do you what do you think of this? And can I just use regular oiled yeast or do I need special um kind of yeast like champagne yeast or or something like that? Um then they take uh uh the all the solids and separately um ferment them with onions and salt and pepper flakes as a I guess some kind of condiment. Right. So um what do you think of this method for making like fruit vinegars?
+
+[14:36] Like this lemon and and and how much sugar should and yeast would I need to add? Right. Well, I mean, as to what yeast to use, I mean uh I haven't studied the effect of um different yeasts on um vinegar production. Be well for everyone who doesn't know how vinegar is made, here's what happens. You take uh some form of sugar, uh some form of fermentable, you ferment it into alcohol first, right?
+
+[15:00] Uh and then after that you uh acetobacter takes over, and acetobacter eats the alcohol that's produced and turns it into acetic acid, which is vinegar. That's why vinegar has a low alcohol content, and that's why when you leave wine open, it turns to vinegar. Now, the tricks with vinegar is that obviously if your alcohol level is too high, then uh acetobacter can't uh work, and if acetobacter can't work, then uh no vinegar, right? Uh similarly, if you use uh preservatives or uh agents in your fermentation that prevent it from turning that that prevent the growth of acetobacter, no vinegar. So uh so there's a couple of ways that you can go about it.
+
+[15:44] One is the more traditional two-step process where you take an alcoholic beverage and then ferment it with uh a vinegar mother, uh or you know, or let it go naturally and produce um vinegar. That's two-step process, or you could do a one-step process where you convert both at the same at the same time so for instance a a a kombucha is uh roughly a uh a two you know a one-step vinegar process where you have different strains of yeast and bacteria and different strains of acetobacter making stuff. Now they're very particular strains of acetobacter so they produce uh kombucha right and it's not very acidic kombucha compared to vinegar right so with their thing presumably they're adding enough sugar to it uh that they're getting uh the acidity level right now in a regular fermentation the yeast is vital to the the what particular yeast you use and the temperature at which you ferment is vital to the end result right now if you use a if you pitch a yeast with let's say like fleischmann's whatever you happen to have lying around and you like the result then the good thing is fleischmann's pretty consistent right but typically you wouldn't pitch beer with fleischmanns because who would do that you know what I mean you'd get you go to a homebrew shop and you would get you know why yeast like you know something that you like like you'd get like you know uh I don't know some uh like uh you know a yeast that's designed to do like a pale ale or whatever you're working on you know and you'd choose the temperature ratio you're working on and then they would write this one produces a lot of esters at between the temperatures of 60 and 70 you know Fahrenheit. And so you'd choose your yeast bake on based on that because it's fairly critical to the tape. Now the other thing is is that you're not ever typically dealing with a fermentation that starts with such a high level of acidity as a lemon maceration.
+
+[17:29] So I don't know whether that's affecting I don't mean I'm sure presumably everything's affecting sugar to it. Yeah, but I mean, like, yeah, I mean the yeast is gonna that means some yeast is gonna be you're gonna you're you're changing how the yeast is going to react by increasing the acidity level. Uh mean I'm not not saying you're gonna kill the yeast, but you're gonna change it uh based on how much acidity uh you're you're adding. Uh oh, and Elliot Elliot Papineau uh writes in that uh what is he saying? Stash just to speak.
+
+[17:57] Anyone interrupting it? Speak. Elliot Papineau asked ideas and food, what kind of yeast for the Meyer lemon vinegar? Oh, so they're they're asking, so we don't know. And ideas in food said mantra che is that mantrachet like and uh Elliot said things.
+
+[18:12] I don't know, but that must be a yeast strain that I'm not familiar with. Oh, I I think that's a kind of uh uh uh yeast that's just used for champagne, which might be able to deal with the acidity. Okay. So there, yeah, because champagne champagne must is high in high in acidity. There, so there you have it.
+
+[18:27] Uh so yeah, so they're doing that and they're doing a one-step fermentation, but that works, yes. Uh I whether or not it's gonna make you the best possible fruit vinegars, that I don't know. I mean, you know, you might want to do traditional ferment the fruit out first and then and then hit it with uh hit it with your acetobacter. They're clearly also using wild acetobacter strains because they're not adding a vinegar mother to it. Unless they added some live vinegar that they already have to kick off the uh fermentation.
+
+[18:51] Did they do that? Uh it doesn't say that they've done that at all here. Right. Um, so uh you know, maybe they need to let it get alcoholic enough first and then and then add the vinegar mother. Well, there's not gonna be a lot of uh there's not gonna be a lot of acetic uh fermentation at first because once you have a vigorous uh alcohol fermentation going, there's constantly producing carbon dioxide, and the layer of carbon dioxide that's forming on top of the um fermentation will prevent uh acetobacter from growing, because acetobacter needs oxygen.
+
+[19:26] That's why if you go to a distillery, they can have these giant vats of things that are fermenting in the open air uh without them turning to vinegar because there's a constant um production of carbon dioxide on the top. Mm-hmm. RT. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[19:40] Um this sounds like to be a fun experiment. Yeah, yeah. Uh let's tweet us, tweet us over and tell us how it works. Okay, cool. Thanks.
+
+[19:47] Oh, oh, one question. How much how much sugar do you think I would need to add in order to uh uh to get it going? That's a good question. I mean, just don't go too high. It's been a long time since I've looked up the bricks that you'd need to add to something.
+
+[20:00] Uh I mean, I would probably have somewhere in the area of like fruit juices, are usually somewhere at like 14, 15 bricks, something like that. So maybe somewhere in that range. Okay. Great. Sounds good.
+
+[20:13] Thanks. All right, cool. Uh thanks. All right. Elliot Pabanal wrote in before uh regarding caramelized tomatoes.
+
+[20:20] Uh I tried pressure cooking in uh my coon recon at full pressure, which is 15 psi, second ring, home canned tomatoes for 40 minutes over the weekend. I used three quarts uh of um product which yielded two uh two quarts of flesh and one quart of juice. I only added the flesh to the pot with one onion, one head of garlic, and three grams of baking soda. The result I was looking for was a caramelized tomato sauce. What I produced is more of a nicely flavored soup.
+
+[20:44] Will I be able to achieve the desired effect using the technique, but adding time or lowering the pH? Well, I mean I assume you mean uh rate raising the pH. So you're adding the baking soda to you're adding the baking soda to the tomato to raise the pH when you're pressure cooking. And the reason to raise the pH when you're pressure cooking, a la what they do in uh modernist cuisine for their butternut squash, whatever it is they do in that thing, uh, is to by raising the pH by making it more alkaline, you are uh shifting uh the temperature at which myard reactions happen to a lower temperature, such as those that happen inside of a pressure cooker, and and things do get appreciably browner in a pressure cooker due to my hard reactions uh over fairly short periods of time. However, tomatoes are an extremely uh extremely uh acidic product.
+
+[21:27] So a couple uh teaspoons of baking soda, I don't think is gonna cut it and make it more uh caramelized. Um in fact, it's interesting. Uh if you look at, I was looking at the Women's Christians Temperance Union cookbook from 1900 from Kansas City because of a separate thing I'm working on. Uh, and uh what was interesting to me is that I looked at a couple of their tomato soup recipes, and all the tomato soup recipes that use milk in them, they have baking soda added, and the reason they have baking soda added uh there is to uh decrease the acidity so that the milk won't curdle, presumably. It's really actually interesting.
+
+[22:01] You know, I don't have time anymore to read old cookbooks, but you know, I I I I used to read constantly read old cookbooks and try and steal ideas that have become lost over time. But anyway, so um I don't think that the baking soda is gonna help in that. Here's what I would do. Uh I would pre-caramelize your potatoes, tomato potatoes, dunce. I would pre-caramelize your tomatoes before you uh do anything.
+
+[22:22] I would just cut the tomatoes in half, roast them until you get rid of a lot of the liquid and they start turning uh kind of dark and caramelized, and then blend those in uh to make your to make your product because I think you're gonna need to just reduce the water enough to get it to get that caramelized stuff before you make the soup. Then pressure cook it, I think it'd be delicious. What do you think, says? I think it sounds good. All right.
+
+[22:42] Uh see if that works. Let me know. Uh now I got another question in. Uh this one uh is very interesting. I love questions like this because I had not thought about it before.
+
+[22:52] Unfortunately, because it turns out it's a huge issue and I haven't thought about it before, I'm not gonna be able to answer it today. But here it is. I want everyone to be thinking about this because it's very interesting. Mark Tinkelman writes in Hi Cooking Issues Crew. Mark from Philadelphia here.
+
+[22:59] My question is about nanoparticles. I've seen a few articles here and there and I gather they are food additives that are used in some industrial food to enhance flavor and texture and that they may be dangerous to health. I haven't seen anything that satisfactory explains what they are how they made. So my questions are what are they? One, could they be made or used in professional kitchen and what good would they be for thanks Mark Tinkleman.
+
+[23:26] Okay. I have to admit I got so entranced with the thinking about the safety aspects of it that I I haven't thought about how to make them yet or what they would be good for. But nanoparticle for those of you that don't know are just extremely small and usually very even sized particles. And they can be made a bunch of different ways. They can be made through like vapor deposition that so goes from a vapor to uh to you know to a solid at very you know at very controlled way such that the particles are small.
+
+[23:53] They can be made um uh by grinding if you happen to have a grinding thing that they can grind well enough although that's you know you don't I don't no one does that is normal they can be made uh but the easiest way I think that uh was we would ever be able to make them is by making emulsions uh that with very fine particle sizes in it then when something's in an emulsion form shifting it from a liquid to a solid so that the the the the droplets that are emulsified in all of a sudden become a solid again so it's sold gel uh change right then breaking the emulsion and you get the nanoparticles out and I think that's uh how the majority of the nanoparticles uh that you know except for I guess things like the titanium I don't know how they make the titanium dioxide nanoparticles which are the ones that are used in toothpaste to make things really bright and the and and that are used in sunscreen to uh shield you from the sun titanium dioxide nanoparticles anyway uh and I don't know how they do silver but uh the one that we'd be most likely to be able to make uh is ones that are based on sol gel uh transformations like that. Here's the issue that's interesting and I hadn't thought about it. I started researching uh kind of safety in nanoparticles because to be honest I'd never thought about it before and it what's interesting is is that you can take something that is safe to use that is a safe product uh and by decreasing its size sufficiently you change the way it's absorbed in the body so that it might no longer be safe right and the the problem with it is and the reason I don't have an answer is that I'm gonna have to spend a long time researching this because most of the articles that are anti them uh anti-nanoparticles in in food are written by um people that I think are biased and most articles that are saying that you shouldn't worry about nanoparticles in food uh also come from people that are biased so far that I've found and so I haven't been able to do enough research for my own uh my own feeling to be able to make any statement uh one way or the other but it definitely is something that I think needs to be looked at more than it is now like what are these things doing right anyway so uh thanks Mark and I will look more into it and expect to hear more blithering when I finally figure out what I think. Right? Uh Peter Hirschman writes in about a name couldn't uh stash you couldn't find the email address for saying the comments so I don't know who he sent it to but here it is.
+
+[26:12] The new torch tip appears to work by radiating infrared this talk about the torch that we're building. Uh by radiating infrared and near-infrared radiation, what makes it similar to an old-fashioned French salamander that was heated in a fire until red hot and then held over the food. The French name would be something like salamandre moderne, which wouldn't work with American audiences. Yeah, no crap, it wouldn't work with it. So how about Salamander 21, a 21st century salamander?
+
+[26:33] Well, everyone knows I like Sally, maybe Sally 21. I like Sally because it sounds friendly. Hey, Sally, sounds friendly. Salamander, by the way, I don't know, did I talk about this already? Salamander, uh uh I used I was taught when I was learning cooking that it was called a salamander because it used to have like a sh some of them had a shape that was similar to salamander, but uh I don't think it's that from my research.
+
+[26:52] Salamanders, because of the markings on them, uh I've had a link. Salamander, the you know, the newt-like amphibian, has had a uh link with fire since uh since recorded since recorded history, because I think because of the markings on it. So it's it used to be thought that um salamanders were impervious to flame, and in fact, uh there were fake uh people used to sell coats made out of salamander wool, and everyone who sees a salamander knows they don't have wool or hair, but you know, Europeans were some dumb back in the middle ages. So like they would import uh salamander wool coats from uh from East from the you know from what the time is called the Orient. Uh you know what it was made out of Stas?
+
+[27:30] No one. Asbestos! So people are having these like thebestist things, and then when they would get dirty, because Europeans are dirty back then, hey, no offense. They would like uh throw them into the fire and they would get clean that way. It's pretty pretty pretty cool, yeah?
+
+[27:42] Yeah. Anyway, Salaman Sally 21. Anyway, we'll think about it. Uh here's hoping that sales are good so it doesn't become an endangered species. Thanks, Peter.
+
+[27:50] Um Bob Berry out uh uh bariatua, which I got right last time, but probably not this time, writes back in uh in response to a couple things we had on our show before. In response to the recent cooking issues inquiry about food science textbooks, I have found that phenoma's food chemistry uh is helpful and accessible. If you have a chemistry background, that is. I have that book. It's pretty good.
+
+[28:09] I have an older version of it. And you can find it online uh pretty well if you want to look through it before you buy it. And Fenema's is available extremely cheaply on ABE Books or on Bookfinder.com if you're willing to get an older version of it. That's how I got mine. Uh I also own a PDF because that's how I roll.
+
+[28:24] Anyway, uh also I started with Modernist Cuisine at home, which I found impressive, but was blown away by the detail found in the five-volume version. It is well worth the investment for anyone with a serious interest in cooking science. Having spent nearly the same amount for a single volume medical textbooks, it's a bargain. This is also Mirvold's point. Uh that if you go out to a super expensive meal, you can afford to buy modernist cuisine and it's worth it.
+
+[28:44] That he actually said that to me, the kind of almost verbatim. Um second question, this is in response, a second comment, rather. This is in response to a podcast from a few months ago. The polycarbonate tub provided by William Sonoma with the Polyscience Circulator is not the same tub uh that the polyscience uh sends out on their website. The pre-cut polycarbonate lid sold on the polyscience website will not fit the William Sonoma tub.
+
+[29:04] Fortunately, any restaurant supply store that sells Cambro containers sells a lid for the William Sonoma tub, which is soft and not soft enough to cut a circulator a hole with a pair of heavy-duty scissors. I believe I paid seven dollars for it. So it's worth it, seven bucks. Although I tell you the ones that I get, it cannot be cut with oh, I don't know what the William Sonoma one is. If the William Sonoma has that little plasticky one that fits on top, the red kind, those can be cut with scissors.
+
+[29:25] If you have the um the tubs that uh we use that are also made by Cambro, those lids can't be cut with scissors. So I think it depends on which kind you have. But anyway, thanks for thanks for that tip, Bob. Uh, it's good to know. Uh also Steven Rhodes writes in on the name.
+
+[29:38] Big fan of the show. Uh name when I say name, I mean the name of the uh Kickstarter thing that we're working on, the uh you know the torch thing. Uh thought of a name for the Kickstarter project, Searite. What do you think? Sally Stone.
+
+[29:49] You like Sally? And then someone else wrote in on my on my Twitter, uh, I forget who it was because I don't have my Twitter up, but said we should you know what they suggested? Sears all, and then it was like, duh, it should be Sears all because you like Sawzall so much. And then he did a little pound hash thing saying, Did I miss anything? I love Sears All.
+
+[30:05] It's just that, you know, some of my partners believe that it sounds like Sears Robuck and therefore they don't like it. But I like Sears all because does it sear some things, Nastasha? No. What is it Sear? All things.
+
+[30:15] All things. Right. All things. All things. Uh okay, maybe we should take a quick break and then come back with some blistering finishing off.
+
+[30:22] Cooking issues. White Oak Pastures is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse. And its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years.
+
+[31:05] A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, you may and animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, Whiteoapastures.com. I like the way that guy says poultry. Don't you? I like the way that man says poultry.
+
+[31:30] Uh poultry. I like that. Like it's like so anyway. I want to go buy some now. Hey, so for next week, it's Jack.
+
+[31:36] Dave. Uh, we got a submission for the Hearst Ranch commercial contest. Yeah? Contest, yeah. Sweet.
+
+[31:41] Yeah, I'm gonna play it next week. Can't wait as we know the alarming. As we know, my my favorite, my favorite grass-fed beef uh song. Yeah. By far.
+
+[31:50] It's tough to pick one, but uh true. Okay. Uh Marty writes in regarding his rice fermentation that we talked about on an earlier show. I wrote earlier about my homemade Chinese rice wine tasting like shwedyballs. And I've since rectified the problem by incubating my fermenter with a terrarium heater pad.
+
+[32:06] Huge difference. So the problem was he was doing it at too low a temperature too long, as we suspected. But the resulting brew is still cloudy. And I have the issue of Spritz, a slight effervescent carbonation. So my questions are as follows.
+
+[32:18] I am fermenting the wine in a water-sealed pickle fermenter. Is that better or worse than fermenting in an open pot? Open pot will have less pressure in it, but you're not sealing it probably enough to keep the um you're not probably sealing it enough to keep in the uh my brain fried, my brain fried. Keep in the CO2 and plus some air needs to get to it for that fermentation to work, I think. Although you know, maybe not.
+
+[32:36] So I uh it's been a long time since I've looked at it. Uh, but I don't think that's causing your spritziness. Is there a way to prevent the carbonation? It's annoying to me. No.
+
+[32:43] You can you can uh if you let it vent off enough, as long as you're making sure that no acetobacter is gonna grow in it to make it more acidic, then you can let the carbonation go off, or you could just uh apply a vacuum to it and zip the al zip the carp carbon dioxide right out of it, like I do, like we do with the with uh champagne when we're testing it. Um is the cloudiness a flaw? Can I clarify the wine? I tried filtering it through coffee filters, but nothing came out. I have no access to a centrifuge.
+
+[33:08] Whether or not you can clarify it depends on what the cloudiness is. Unfortunately, I suspect that what is causing the cloudiness in your case is starch, and starch uh isn't very well clarified by techniques like agar clarification, uh as well as th as well as other cloudy things are like proteins. But if it is starch, it will settle. If you let it sit for a you know, like a week or two, uh it should settle out, and then you could probably decant the clear stuff off the top, but it's not a flaw. If it's not starch, then you could just do an agar clarification, go on the cooking issues website, which is working again thanks to uh Paul Adams, our buddy.
+
+[33:40] Uh you can look up clarification techniques and get uh technique with agar that doesn't require a centrifuge. Now here's what I'm really cool. I like this a lot. Uh Morton Madsen uh wrote in last week about quail eggs. Do we speak them or do we write?
+
+[33:52] I think he wrote. He wrote. Uh and you know what I said was please someone run the experiment. The experiment was can you put uh the quail eggs in an ISI container, hit them with nitrous and vent them real quick to make them peel easier. Uh and he ran the experiment.
+
+[34:05] How awesome is that? So here it is. Uh he writes, thanks for your answer on my quail egg question. Hate to be rough on you, but your pronunciation was not entirely spot on. Mort Morton Morton Madsen, what do you think?
+
+[34:16] I don't know, I don't know. He's like, Well, Danish can be a tongue twister for non-danes, so no worries. At least you did not torture my name. I read through the article you suggested and found it quite informing. I told him an article about peeling eggs, right?
+
+[34:26] Uh back to the issue at hand. I took your suggestion on using the ISI to approximate the pressure change associated with the pressure cooking of eggs. When you mentioned that the critical aspect of the pressure cooking of eggs is the abrupt change in pressure and not the temperature, my thoughts immediately went to uh the ISI as yours did as well. Needless to say, when I got the chance, I went out and bought a new batch of quail eggs. I followed the recipes uh from the last time, blanched a bunch of eggs in boiling water, followed by a cooling step and a second blanching.
+
+[34:51] I then circulated the eggs at 63.5 degrees Celsius for a short period. From this point on, I split the eggs in three uh in three uh things. I first I tried to peel directly. These eggs were even harder to peel than I remembered, uh presumably due to the fact that they were fresh. The second batch I put directly into the ISI canister from the circulator and loaded it with N2O, followed by a violent venting right away.
+
+[35:11] This time, complete success! These eggs were much easier to peel. The membrane had loosened from the egg white, and I had no problem peeling these eggs. This solution is really what I was dreaming of. I think it will I will be able to peel every single egg with no breakage using this technique.
+
+[35:24] Lastly, I had one more batch of eggs. This one I cooled down. I wanted to test if the eggs would do just as fine when loaded cold. While the batch of hot eggs, I reasoned that no N2O would dissolve in the eggs. However, with the cold eggs, this would make a difference.
+
+[35:35] With my small batches of eggs, I think I leaned towards this last batch, the one that was cold as being the easiest to peel. However, I also realized that I got my peeling technique honed for each egg, so I would hesitate to make any conclusions on this final point. In the end, it seems that this technique works equally well with cold and warm eggs, so it seems that one does not need to worry about egg temperature before the ISI step. In summary, I can easily recommend this technique as a shortcut to peeling eggs. I will try the technique with chicken eggs at some time.
+
+[35:59] However, this would probably not be nearly as advantageous since the eggs are easier to peel to begin with, and since they would canister would only hold a small number of eggs. Thanks for your help, Morton Madsen. Awesome. I love this. Now here's a new technique that was uh that we developed with someone who was listening to the show over over the radio.
+
+[36:16] Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay.
+
+[36:19] Uh Sherry writes in from Vancouver about high temperature bags. Greeting Anastasia, Dave, and all. Yes, you do have at least one other dedicated female listener and one with a question at that. Busted, Stas. Busted.
+
+[36:33] I'm not busted. I'm happy. Dax just says busted whenever you're wrong. He just goes, You're busted. Even if he's busted, but you know, even whatever, anyway.
+
+[36:40] Uh Dave, a few weeks ago you mentioned the point of comfying uh in a vacpack is to reduce the amount of fat that's required that you cook at about the same temperature as the classic method to obtain the same results. Being a pork belly and pig ears kind of gal, me you know, if I was a gal, I'd be that kind of gal too. Uh intrigued me. My question is from an energy use and equipment wear and tear perspective, would I be better off running my circulator at 9 DC for several hours? Or should I put the vac bag meat in a hot water in an oven of the same temperature?
+
+[37:05] That's interesting. You could probably see the problem with uh ovens is that if the localized temperature of the bag gets above boiling, it can melt out. But so what we what you could do is put uh like a like a bane or water bath or a roaster on your stove top and then cook that one at a little, but I wouldn't do it in an oven because I think that the bat localized bag temperature might get too high and you might get some melting. Uh, but you could definitely do it on a stovetop, as that's what I typically do is I do it on a stove top. But I wouldn't try it in an oven just because I can't get it.
+
+[37:36] If you if you could guarantee that the bag would stay underneath the water the whole time and it wouldn't inflate with air, and then the bag would get above the surface of the water, then I think you could do it. You know what I mean? But uh I I wouldn't I wouldn't try it. I mean, that would and that would actually self-regulate because the water won't get above boiling because of evaporative cooling inside of the oven. So that would be great, but you'd have to make sure that the bag doesn't come up above the surface.
+
+[37:58] But it is a pain running circulators at that high temperature, especially with larger quantities of stuff. And who wants to comf you one thing? You know what I mean, Stas? Yes. Anyway, so uh good idea.
+
+[38:07] Okay. Uh David Wilkie wrote in also about the name. I tried tweeting you but got it wrong. I think you should call it Shimmera A S E for all searing eye and pronounce it ace, shimmera ace. What do you think, Sas?
+
+[38:18] No, I don't like it. Why? I just see. I don't know. I don't think I don't have likes and dislikes like you do.
+
+[38:25] I don't have likes and dislikes that you do. Anyway, whatever you call it, I can't wait to buy one. Thanks for asking my answering my egg question a couple weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave Wilkie. Okay, uh Dorothy, uh, I'm gonna rip through these like it's some gun.
+
+[38:35] Dorothy Stainbrook wrote in from Heath Glenn Farm and Kitchen. Hi, Jack, Dave, and Nastasia. First, you do have female listeners. Another one, double busted, Sas. I am a middle-aged female from Minnesota.
+
+[38:46] You know, I haven't been to Minnesota since I was a little kid. I need to go back. I like Minnesota. Minnesota's good. Well, I remember when I was a kid, I remember it being good.
+
+[38:52] We fished, I got a whole bunch of catfish, and no one wanted to eat them, so we had to bury them for fertilizer. But that's that was in the 70s. What do you want out of me? Uh I have even sent other likely female listeners to your podcast via my blog spot on top seven food podcasts. We females may not be many, but we are listening, Nastasha.
+
+[39:08] Nice. Nice, nice. Anyway, my question. I am making Harissa sauce and would like to make it shelf stable by uh water bathing it like a jam. I'm thinking this may not be safe as it does not have enough acid or sugar in it.
+
+[39:20] It is made uh from rehydrated chili peppers, garlic spices, lemon juice, and grapeseed oil. Do I have to use a pressure cooker or can I add a ton of acid to make it shelf stable? Can I get away with water uh bathing or is or bathing, or is there a better way? Thanks so much. I do love your show and never miss it.
+
+[39:34] Okay. Uh first of all, because you are at uh look, if you if you're working at a uh or if you're at a place you own or whatever, Heath Glen Farm and Kitchen. My assumption, and I could be wrong here, so right back if my assumption is wrong. My assumption is you don't want to heap a bunch of preservatives into it because clearly you can kill whatever is gonna grow in that with preservatives. But assuming that you don't want to add preservatives, um the problem okay, so let's take this take a look.
+
+[39:57] Harissa is usually like uh uh like a uh a like a like I don't know whether they're making the sauce or just the paste, but the paste is like you know, uh uh a mixture of oil and garlic and chilies with enough water to rehydrate the the chilies, right? And then other flavorings. You add you said you have um you said you have lemon juice in yours. Now, the issue is that, for instance, let's say you're making garlic oil. The issue is is there's nothing in the garlic to prevent things from like botulism like growing, and so when you add oil, by adding the oil, you're making it an anaerobic environment, an environment without oxygen because it's coating all the stuff, and then by doing that, you're increasing the likelihood something like botulism will grow.
+
+[40:29] So presumably that's what you're worried about, and rightly so. Uh now the problem is normal heating, if if your product is susceptible to spoilage by something like botulism, right? A spore-forming bacteria, then uh then wal doing a water bath is not sufficient to kill it, right? So that would not be sufficient. If you if the problem is something like botulism, then you have to uh seal it and pressure cook it.
+
+[41:02] Can it, right? Pressure can it. Not to pressure cook it, pressure can it. Then you have to follow the right uh advice to do that. Now, let's flip this back a little bit.
+
+[41:11] Let's say that your product uh has an like, let's say you added salt to it, right? And you can measure the water activity and you can measure the pH of it, and it's called the hurdles. So when you when you're whenever you're trying to stop microbes from growing, you have what's called hurdles where you put different things in the way of bacteria from growing. So for botulism and things like it, typically hurdles will be water activity, a small amount of water. Second hurdle will be salt, uh, you know, a high enough amount of salt, and a third uh will be uh pH, would be acidity.
+
+[41:37] And if the combination, if it's acid enough, salty enough, and has l uh not you know a low enough amount of water, then botulism cannot grow. So you can adjust those things, and by the way, interesting thing about your mouth, your mouth doesn't taste uh pH. Your mouth literally tastes the number of uh acid molecules that are present. That's how that's how you perceive something as more or less sour to a first order. I mean, uh don't don't yell at me.
+
+[42:02] To a first order, that's correct. Which means you can choose an acid that has a larger effect on the pH, right? That's gonna kill botulism more readily or prevent botulism from growing more readily, but doesn't taste as sour on your tongue. So you have to look up a list of acidifiers that have uh uh you know that can shift pH fairly quickly without it being too uh too much of an acid perception on the tongue. Now, let's go this way.
+
+[42:27] Let's say you add enough uh product, you add enough acid and salt, and uh also the water activity in the water portion of it. And you should uh you should have all those things mixed into the water portion before you make your oil emulsion. Uh let's say you have enough to stop botulism from growing. You haven't guaranteed, you've guaranteed that no one will die from botulism, but you haven't guaranteed that it's gonna be stable. So there are things that will grow in environments like that, like yeast, for instance, things like that, that can grow in those environments and microbes that can grow that are not pathogens, they won't kill you, but they can change the flavor and spoil it.
+
+[43:01] Luckily for you, most of those things can be killed with a simple water bath. So if you make your harissa stable enough to not have deadly spore-forming bacteria grow in it, like botulism, then uh a simple water bath is enough to kill the rest of the stuff in there that will simply cause bad taste and spoilage. What do you think? Good. All right.
+
+[43:24] Now, I do not have time, unfortunately, to ask answer the last question in from Winter Sender, who is wondering if I could help with a recipe for a homemade soda like sand bitter. This is from Enda in Beijing, and Nastasha will be interested. You know, sand bitter, you like sand bitter, right? I love sandbitter. So I'll tell you what, I don't have time to go in through the rigmarole because they're gonna kick me off the air in the minute, but uh I'm definitely gonna go over that next week.
+
+[43:47] In the la uh and the reason I'm not gonna go over that is because I've missed one for like three or four weeks in a row on the BDX ICE program. So here's what we do at uh at BDX, BDXEQ. So it is possible we we we in general use uh three main three or four main kinds of ice. We use crappy machine ice that we that's what we use for uh our stirring and for chilling things down and for normal culinary use and whenever we don't care, right? That's just normal ice machine ice.
+
+[44:16] Uh and my feeling is is that it has just the same chilling power pound for pound as any kind of ice. The problems are it doesn't look very good and it can have more surface water because it has a large surface area. So we we a lot of times we'll shake it off before we use it, but it's it's fine. Um second kind of ice we use is presentation ice. Presentation ice, we get our ice made by 100 weight ice corporation.
+
+[44:36] They freeze it in large machines called a Kleinbell. Uh we get them in slabs. That stuff is perfectly clear. There are ways to freeze perfectly clear ice uh at home or at a bar that don't involve it. We don't do it.
+
+[44:46] We just order it from 100 weight ice. We get them in slabs, we temper those uh slabs out, and then we cut them with bread knives. They cut it cuts, it's so easy to cut, you just put the bread knife, slide it across it, tap it, and you can make perfect square chunks that are beautiful looking. That's our presentation ice that we use for uh old fashions and um drinks that are built on the rocks. Uh lastly, we make shaking ice.
+
+[45:07] We have two by two uh two inch by two inch ice cube uh trays that we get from Cocktail Kingdom. Theirs are made from urethane and not from silicone. The polyurethane ones that they have don't have any aroma, whereas Evan Freeman noted years ago that the silicone molds that you can buy in some houseware stores uh make a taste to the ice that is otherwise unpleasant, presumably from the silicone, but the ones from Cocktail Kingdom, we did side-by-side taste tests, and we've not been able to note any uh flavor in them at all. Now, those ice cube, two by two ice cubes, uh have cloudiness in them, so they're not good presentation cubes. However, uh my feeling is is that they uh make ideal shaking ice cubes because the texture in a shake and drink with a large two by two ice cube is better as we've noted in side-by-side taste tests.
+
+[45:51] However, if you add just one two by two ice cube to a shaker, you're not going to get enough dilution because uh it's so large that you can't get efficient, uh efficient dilution that way. So typically our shake and drinks, we put a one large two by two ice cube that's frozen in the cocktail kingdom uh ice cube mold, and then we throw in a couple from the crappy ice machine to increase the dilution, and that's our sweet spot for shaking drinks. We do not make uh cobbler ice because we don't use highball glasses uh in our drink presentations yet, otherwise we would. So that's it. Slab ice that we cut into whatever shape we want, usually cubes on the order of two by two, frozen two by two cubes that we freeze in a freezer that we allow to be cloudy that we use for shaking, regular crap ice, and then also, of course, your boy dry uh liquid nitrogen, which is our other chilling technique, and that's it for this week.
+
+[46:40] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[47:10] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed and grass finished beef. For more information, visit Hearst Ranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network! Join with the entire crew today. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, how are you guys doing? Hey!
+
+[1:13] Whoa! Nice! Nice, nice. And speaking of, uh uh, oh, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:22] Okay. Uh by the way, cooking or other, you know, anything, spring-related questions, whatever you got. By the way, uh, I noticed that we had a little bit of a sponsorship vlog that we were almost brought to you by beer, and then it turns out we were brought to you by Hurst Ranch. Uh greatest greatest uh grass-fed beef song as as we all know, greatest grass-fed beef song probably ever. Well, guess what?
+
+[1:43] Somebody covered it. Uh so we're gonna hear that later today. So we're gonna hear a cover version of it. I think we're gonna play the original first, and then we'll rock with the cover a little later. And I think we should also at some point find out what the Reverend Horton Heat is doing these days and see if we can't like get permission from the Reverend Horton Heat for the Hearst Ranch people to have him play his fabulous song Eat Steak.
+
+[2:02] You remember that song? Let's do it. Yeah, it's a good song, good song. Well, kind of kind of good song. Anyway, uh but uh initially brought by beer and beer and beef, good combo.
+
+[2:11] We should do uh like a sponsorship beer and beef one day. I could do a beer and beef dish. Right? Everyone likes everyone likes a you know, a Guinness braised uh cut of beef every now and well, not everyone. Michael Natkin for one.
+
+[2:24] Yeah. Oh, congratulations to him. What happened? He is nominated for a beer board. Sweet, I knew that, but I had to draw you into it.
+
+[2:30] See that? See how I had to pretend see how that works? See how you like you know, people out there don't know what's anyway, whatever. So, yes, congratulations to Michael Nakin on being nominated for James Beer. Which uh which category was it?
+
+[2:40] Vegetarian cookbook. Uh he better win. Yeah. Who's against? Do we know?
+
+[2:44] There's some good ones. I don't know, you can look it up. We want him to win. We want Michael Knacken to answer. I bought three books of his for friends.
+
+[2:50] Yeah. With your own money. With my own money. Off Amazon. Michael, Michael, you can't possibly know what an endorsement that is from Queen Cheapula, Nastasha Lopez.
+
+[3:02] I am King Cheapula. I am a cheap, cheap, cheap. But it's weird. I'm cheap about some things, not about other things. Right?
+
+[3:07] Anyway. So uh that that all of that is useless information for you out there. Sorry. Uh really interesting news. Uh we have a question later uh having to do with uh acrylamide in Denmark, which we'll get to later.
+
+[3:17] But I was searching, you know, Denmark and food and problems, and I found something that Nastasha is going to particularly enjoy. I don't know why I think that, but I think she will. And uh it goes back to the recent spate of scandals whereby everything and its brother has been contaminated somehow, right? And so everyone's now like in a complete testing frenzy that uh the meats that you're getting are not authentic, etc. etc.
+
+[3:40] Like perhaps your perhaps your lasagna is actually a horse lasagna. Could be, or at least in Europe. So the latest one, which is like super bonx, is uh new meat scandal, pork in swarma. What? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:55] So it's like more so there's a uh so shawarma, you know, for those who don't know what swarma is, uh if you know what a Jiro is, it's kinda like their hero. If you're if you know what a uh donor kebab is, it's kinda like that. But uh the last thing you want to be doing is uh being uh Muslim and have uh pork in your swarma. That's the last thing you want. And so um uh the uh Imran Shah, spokesperson for the Islamic Society in Denmark, told the online daily Politicin DK that this is by no means a minor infraction.
+
+[4:26] This is a huge scandal that will cause an outcry among Danish Muslims. Our religion prohibits us from eating pork. Now Muslims will think twice before eating swarma for fear that uh that they're not adhering to the rules of their faith, said Shah. Sold as b this is all from this website. Sold as beef.
+
+[4:39] More than 200,000 Muslims currently live in Denmark, and shawarma is particularly popul popular because it does not traditionally contain pork, which is considered unclean by Muslims. Uh however, the Danish veterinary food uh uh veterinarian food administration, who the heck does veterinary science and food in the same day? It's kind of crazy, right? I mean, I want that stuff separate. Anyway, found maybe that's the problem.
+
+[4:57] Yeah, anyway. Found traces of the forbidden pork in a fried beef kebab uh product manufactured by Andalukud, the largest supplier of Schwarma meat in Copenhagen. Uh quotes, uh Mustafa Shaheen, the CEO and owner of Andalukud, sorry. Oh. Anyway, I thought you'd like that, right?
+
+[5:17] Sorry. Uh it's not, well, it's not allowed. Obviously, it's not a laughing matter. Food contamination is not a laughing matter, but uh what's interesting is that as soon as people start testing, uh the you know, the the poor kids the fan. Anyway, uh Rick writes in uh regarding uh chicha that we discussed, I think last week or maybe the week before.
+
+[5:37] Uh Dave Nastasia, Jack and Joe. I was listening to episode 118. I can't believe we've had 118 episodes, nuts. Uh in particular segment about chicha. And for those of you that don't know, uh chicha is uh they're traditional fermented uh grain, uh traditionally corn corn, I guess.
+
+[5:52] Uh although other things, you can use roots, uh not necessarily grain, starch. Starch fermentations uh from South America. Uh and you know, one of the traditional ones is with corn, and in order to get the starch in corn or any starch really, uh roots, whatever, cassava, whatever, to uh turn into sugar so that you can ferment them into ethanol, you need to introduce uh amylase enzymes. One way to do that is to germinate uh product uh by you know letting it grow a little bit and then killing the killing the germ so that you um so that you then don't you know don't actually convert like use up all the sugar that you need, and then you use the enzymes from the germination to convert the starch to sugar. Mashing in beer to parlance.
+
+[6:31] Anyway, so um point is is that if you don't mash something out or you don't have something that you can germinate, you have amylase where stuff's saliva. In your spit, yeah. So you can chew stuff up, and it's traditional in a lot of uh communities that didn't have the ability or products that could germinate properly, traditionally things would be chewed up, uh, and then uh the saliva would be allowed to work on the product such that you could get the same effect as you did from germinating. Okay, that's what we're that's what we're talking about. Just so you don't have to go back and listen to 118, God help you if you have to do that.
+
+[6:59] Okay. Uh I recalled an episode of a show called Brewmasters, uh, where uh Sam uh Collagione, is that how you pronounce it? Collagene. What do you think? You're the Italian.
+
+[7:09] Yeah. Uh although he's from like Delaware, so he probably pronounces it differently. At Dogfish Head, great brewery, you know, they make some crazy products, but they also make some incredibly delicious products. Uh at Dogfish Head made a chicho beer where he and his staff uh chewed the corn, spat it out, then added it to the wort, and the beer was then served at the Dogfish Head Pub. In the show, they even tested employees to find those people whose saliva had more of the right enzymes needed to break down the corn, referred to by Sam as super chewers.
+
+[7:37] Uh that in from Rick. So I read one article about uh them doing this. Here's the thing. So they here's the argument of why it's okay to uh chew up uh your stuff and spit it out. The argument is that you're gonna boil uh no matter what, you're gonna boil the wort anyway, right?
+
+[7:52] So you're gonna kill any any bacteria or any stuff that's in there, um it's gonna be rendered harmless by the boiling procedure. Now, I don't really know, because I haven't had the time to look up whether or not that's legal or not. Like in other words, like whether or not people would actually be okay if you actually listed the steps, like I am literally gonna put it in my mouth, chew it up and spit it out, and then I don't know. I mean, like I I'm not saying they didn't serve it, because clearly they did. Um and I, you know, I read that it was more difficult than they let on.
+
+[8:19] They thought they were gonna chew through a bunch of pounds of this stuff and nothing flat, and it took them forever to chew it. Turns out hard work. Uh but the the the point is is that regardless of whether or not it's legal, then the question is is it a good idea to do in your bar or uh brew pub or establishment? And for Dogfish Head, clearly, because they spend a lot of their time experimenting with old techniques uh and you know, ancient brews and ancient beverages, for them it's clearly a necessary step they need to make. Now, step aside, and let's say that you're not Dogfish Head.
+
+[8:48] Like, is it a wise idea? The look on Nastasha's face, the horrified look on Nastasha's face, seems to tell me that no, it's probably not a good idea. Let me give you I'm gonna get gross here for a sec. You alright with this, Doug? Yeah.
+
+[8:59] I'm gonna get gross here, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So you're literally spitting into something you're gonna serve to somebody, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[8:59] Okay. And if you weren't gonna boil it, that wouldn't be okay, right? Right. Right. Now.
+
+[9:10] Ready for the gross? Mm-hmm. Like, what if the analog, what if there was an enzyme in poop that did something, right? For instance, Copi Luwak, right? When you eat Copi Lua coffee beans, they have passed through the gut of a civet cat and been pooped out of the civet cat.
+
+[9:25] The civic cats poop in particular areas. They eat only the choicest coffee beans, and the enzymes in the digestive system do something to the coffee bean to make it particularly delicious. I've never tasted it, but it's extremely expensive, right? Okay. So there you go, pooping the coffee.
+
+[9:39] Now, that's washed and cleaned and sterilized and roasted, so right, nonsense. So if a person was to eat coffee beans and poop them out, would that be okay to brew coffee from? Would that be okay? No. Right.
+
+[9:50] So it's that's the question, right? I mean, like, I don't know. I don't know. Interesting question. Kind of interesting question.
+
+[9:55] I don't know. I don't really know. Someone tell me. Anyway. Uh, more stuff on the torch name.
+
+[9:59] So, as uh those who know that we're working on a new kind of torch attachment that uh you attach it to the torch and it gets rid of the taste that I associate that I call torch taste, which I used to think came from the fuel, but in fact turns out it comes from just the incredible high heat of a torch. We diffuse it, turn it into radiant heat, and we're trying to find a name for this gizmo. You can look on the cooking issues blog to get an idea of what the hell we're talking about. A couple people have written in by the way, asking where they can find the Kickstarter. The reason you can't find it is we haven't put it up yet.
+
+[10:26] We're still um we have it out what's called beta testing. So I have, you know, we've given it to a group of about uh five or six chefs, or you know, six, ten chefs, and we're having them test it now to see kind of what they what they think, what they think the problems are, what solutions are to the problems, we're making it safer, etc. etc. Right? Right.
+
+[10:45] It's a fun process. Oh, it's so fun. It's so it's so fun that Nastasha wants to stab me in the eye every morning. Okay. Uh we're we're all, you know, whatever.
+
+[10:52] I'm I could be difficult. Okay, so uh here's some of the names. Because we had a contest on the names, and uh I think we're gonna probably call like we should probably call the contest after this because we've gotten a lot of really good names in, and we're pretty sure we're gonna go with some combination of Sally plus plus something else, and we're just focusing on it. So we'll we'll go through and we'll see whether anyone actually earned the free whatever, but we really super appreciate all the names that have been sent in. And I'm gonna read the last list of the names of names.
+
+[11:19] All right, so read them right now. I have the new T abbreviation of New Torch and a nod to the salamander and eye of newt with T as a capital at the end. I like Eye of Newt because of the witch thing. But you remember, I actually have to sell this product. Like this is so like it's all funny.
+
+[11:33] Like it's all funny. Like these are things that I would come up with as well that I appreciate that I would I you know so there's Pipe Piper that works with us, he's the pun master. He should quit working with us and go just do puns for a living. For daily news, or yeah, or something, yeah. But anyway, uh or for the yeah, whatever, like the weatherman, whatever, like meteorologists.
+
+[11:49] Like he could come up with their puns left and right, it'd be awesome at it. Uh but my my point is that these are all Piper worthy puns. They're great, but uh, you know, they they don't want to necessarily have a product that's supposed to be around for years. But anyway, here's the last list. Uh Cooking Issues team.
+
+[12:04] This is from JD. I tweeted a torch name, but decided to email it just to make sure. So that was also JD. Oh, Myard Reactor. That's a good name.
+
+[12:11] Myard Reactor. But you know, again, I don't wait away. My it uh I re this is him. I realize it doesn't cover all the functionality, but I think it would be cool to pay homage, homage, pay homage, to the technical term and chemist Louis Camille Maillard. Yeah, famous, famous man, not famous in his own life, the poor SOB.
+
+[12:27] Uh also, what chef wouldn't want a serious kitchen tool that has reactor in the name? That's actually kind of true. I like reactor. I like reactor. And if you look up uh chemistry reactors online, they're pretty awesome.
+
+[12:37] It's right for all sorts of nameplay in the back of the house. My are that puppy. Give it some more Maya. Like Maya, actually. Uh love the uh love yard it up, etc.
+
+[12:46] Or Myard Reaction Torch MR Torch, you can call it Mr. Torch or Mr. T for an extremely marketable name. Uh sure you could easily get Mr. T to endorse it.
+
+[12:54] And of course the tagline would be I pity the fool. Should I do it? I can't really do Mr. T. I pity the fool who doesn't use my Siri 2.
+
+[13:01] Uh cheers, JD. That wasn't bad. Yeah. Uh it's been a long, long time, and I do love Mr. T.
+
+[13:06] Who does if you don't like Mr. T, something wrong with you. Anyway. Hey, we got a caller. Oh, yeah?
+
+[13:10] All right, we'll get well sh okay, okay. I'll go back to the names in a second. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, uh Dave. Howdy.
+
+[13:16] How's it going? Do well. I have a question of um two questions. First is uh I want to get an ISI whip. I was wondering what's your recommendation as far as uh the best ISI whip to get.
+
+[13:27] Okay, so is this for home or commercial? Um home, but uh hopefully commercial use. So kind of both, yeah. Okay, so I mean, I like the ones that first of all, you know, I I have worked with the with the company in the past, so just you know, bias there. Uh but I've you I've used the off-brand ones before, and they've been given to me and all this stuff, and I have to admit, as much as I hate shilling out for ISI here, uh the off-brand ones tend to leak and the seals are cruddy, and they just tend not to work as well.
+
+[14:01] So I stick with the name brand ones. I'm sure there's another high quality one out there, but I don't know. Then uh I prefer I've I've had the home ones that um, you know, are plastic on top and stainless elsewhere, and I think the ones that are kind of all stainless with the um with the silicone grips are are better, right? So then now the next question is what size do you want to go with? And now for all purpose uses uh I think like either get the half liter or the liter depending on what kind of volumes you're going to use.
+
+[14:29] Like unless you have a very specific application for the very small one I wouldn't say it's necessarily that useful. I tend to use liter ones and half liter ones. The you know the the thing is if you're going to do small amounts in the full liter ones you might need to dump an extra cartridge in versus if you were using the half liter one. So it but if you're not going to do it all the time it's not that big of a loss and your capacity is now all of a sudden greater right so you bear that in mind when you're when you're buying one and um the other thing is is that in general unless you have a very specific application where you need to keep something hot or cold for a long time the thermal whips which are which are insulated so they they look like they hold a liter but they only hold a half liter because they're insulated they're great if you need to keep something hot for a long time and you don't have access to like a circulator or a Bain Marie where you can just keep it in hot water but uh those applications are fairly they're fairly specific and the upcharge for the thermal whip is very large right so I mean and remember anything you can do in a thermo whip you can do slightly less conveniently in a regular ISI by either sticking it into a hot water bath or by putting it in the fridge one of the two. And if you do if you do buy a thermal whip you still you need to pre chill it or preheat it with a fluid before you dump your initial before you dump your product in or it doesn't doesn't work right.
+
+[15:53] You know if you do get the leader, you're gonna have to contend with the fact uh that you you guys gotta remember to keep your recipe or anything really any one of them you have to make sure that your recipes are the same uh volumes every time when you're doing things like infusions. For things like whipped creams and foams it doesn't matter as much. Okay. Great. And uh my second question is um I'm trying to uh mess around with making egg egg yolk batarga.
+
+[16:16] Okay. I was wondering if you have any advice on uh how to go about doing that because I've seen recipes and seen uh previous chefs I work with make batarga from uh you know uh row uh so I'm wondering if you have any advice for making egg yolk batarga. Mean regular chicken egg yolk? Egg chicken egg yolk kind of curing them so they have the same texture so you can grate them like you would batarga. Well I mean huh so how would you do that?
+
+[16:44] I guess it depends on what you what you want right so uh I mean I would look into kind of miso curing uh of egg yolks and see kind of a miso cured egg yolk and then get the initial cure. The issue is you have to get enough water out of the egg yolk so that it's stable before you undergo the normal kind of dehydration uh process. Yeah. And I know you you probably don't want the flavor I've never tried it. This is why I'm just thinking off the top of my head is I've never done it.
+
+[17:09] So like you know I'm just I I would look into seeing how the miso cured egg yolks work. Uh I mean the the bonehead easiest way to do it would be probably to cook the egg yolks out at like 64, mold them into a block and then and then with salt and then let them dry like batarga style. I don't I mean that's the bonehead easy way to do it, but it's not as elegant. I mean, if you want to keep the egg yolk whole and then grate it later, then you're gonna have to do some form of very slow uh dehydration and salting and then later expose it to air and let it dry out. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[17:43] Yeah. Um because I found a recipe for sea urchin retargo where they mix tucky with search. Oh, yeah, to bind it. And then folded it into um I mean molded it, and then from there they did the some work. I'm wondering if that is an optional technical search with egg yolks.
+
+[18:02] Um, sure. I mean the question is how how much I mean, you know, a uni is ex like the eggs, the eggs, uh the actual eggs are extremely, extremely fine in uni, right? Yeah, super fine, like much finer than they are in the fish rows that they make uh you know botarga from. So presumably some of them are still whole, and then some of them are beat up by the uh pureeing, and then and then the tapioca just glues the whole thing together, and then uh how much they add salt to it? Uh presumably?
+
+[18:31] Um presumably, yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, they they bury they buried in kosher salt, but I don't think they added any salt to it. Right, so they they buried it in kosher salt. Right, okay.
+
+[18:41] So yeah, so then the salt is is going through biosmothy. Yeah, I mean, so if it works for that, the problem with you know, the problem with regular egg yolks is you know if you puree an egg yolk and you puree uni, pure uni is gonna have more structure pureeed. So I guess that's why they're adding the tapioca. I mean, like I don't know whether it's gonna uh super adversely affect the flavor, but just taking the egg yolk up to like 64 uh or 63 C is gonna give you enough structure to have it sit around while it's doing its thing, but I don't know if it changes the structure. And then like I say, if you you can just crack uh egg yolks into uh and do do miso curing of them because uh you know, I've I've never done it, but I've s I've seen it done.
+
+[19:17] Okay. Alrighty? Okay. I hope they have uh please tweet the uh at cooking issues and tell me what happens when you test this stuff out because uh it'll give me an idea for future people who ask me. Great.
+
+[19:27] Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. All right.
+
+[19:30] Uh okay, back to some torch names. What was the last one we had? Oh yeah, Celsius Chef writes in. You got like Celsius Chef. Yeah, Celsius Chef.
+
+[19:36] Although remember, I still fry in Fahrenheit and I bake in Fahrenheit, but I do all my low temperature work in Celsius. Uh Hey there, Dave and Gang. Uh the perfect name for your new tool, the Bluzuka. I totally yell that. I totally yell down the line for that, just because it's fun to say.
+
+[19:51] Keep up the great work, guys. And how do I find the project on Kickstarter if I'd like to support Celsius Chef? We'll let you know when we actually have it up. I mean, look, I gotta be honest, I love the name Blowzuka. I can't actually call it that, but blow zuka!
+
+[20:02] That was my vote, by the way. Really? I mean, how could it not be? That's an awesome name. I know.
+
+[20:06] Blozuka? Awesome. Like Bluzuka Joe. What do you think? Whoa, can we rename Joe Blozuka Joe?
+
+[20:15] Hell yeah. Can you write a song? Blozuka Joe, Joe? Yeah, Jack and I will collaborate on this. We'll have it by next week, I think.
+
+[20:21] Uh, sweet, sweet, blowzuka Joe. Okay. Uh Ole writes in, hi, here are a few names for your torch gizmo. First of all, I love the word gizmo. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:28] Love the word gizmo. I like the blog Gizmodo just because it's called Gizmo Doe. Anyway. Uh Torch Tamer, the seer, especially if it can also predict the future. This, by the way, was the vote of Dax, my son.
+
+[20:39] I called it Daddy's Sear for a long time, not knowing what sear, like searing. Anyway, so he calls it the seer, which is I kind of like that, but it's uh sounds like kind of like really like a cult. Yeah. The seer. Although it'd be anyway.
+
+[20:53] The humane torch. The humane torch. Like the human torch. Oh, like human torch. Yeah, human torch.
+
+[20:59] Good c good uh comic book of reference there. I think Nastasha always surprises me. I'm always surprise me. I love that. Uh Cooking Torch without Issues.
+
+[21:07] Did I get it? Yeah. Yeah. And the eye torch. Like could be I or I, because it looks like an eye.
+
+[21:12] Honestly, if you're looking to sell more than a few of these, uh find a clever name. Sous vide Torch. Uh, sell the whole deal, Torchhead included, and Sous V Torch would be the top Google search results. Gotta like a Google search result. Mm-hmm.
+
+[21:22] Yeah, gotta like that. Uh, no matter what you decide, I was standing in line, Apple store style to get one. I'm relatively relatively new to your podcast, but I'm burning through one to three a day. Many thanks. Ole.
+
+[21:31] Oh, hey you gotta mellow out on listening to this. You're you're gonna burn out. Like we're we you can't listen to three of us a day. It's not possible. Yeah.
+
+[21:37] Right? Yeah. Okay, no more submissions now. Well, the stash is so you're so harsh. I got more in this list.
+
+[21:43] Okay. What the hell's wrong with you? You're crazy. Uh Dean Wynne writes in. Hey Nastasha, Dave Jack and Joe.
+
+[21:49] I'm not sure where you guys are with the gadget names, but I ha I like gadget too, good word. Uh, but I had to throw my hat in. I also like the term throw hat in. Initially I thought about broiling and searing, but what you really are doing is applying heat by hand with the precision of an artist. So that led to the idea of a brush, fire brush, flash brush, and torch brush.
+
+[22:04] Brushes, brush. Uh, thanks for the show. I love uh um thanks. I love the show and listen to all the podcasts, hoping to hear my name on the next show. Dean Nguyen, here's your name again, Dean.
+
+[22:12] Dean Nguyen. Thank you for your uh submission, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh okay. Is that it?
+
+[22:18] For the names. Okay. So no more. All right, so should we take a commercial break? Yeah.
+
+[22:22] All right, first commercial break. Pasture raised on a hundred and fifty thousand acres in central California. Sustainably produced, humane. Oh yeah. And you're back.
+
+[23:56] Hey, welcome back to King. I thought we're doing the cover. No, we're gonna close the show with the cover. Okay, we have a cover of my favorite grass, uh, grass uh fed beef song. Coming to you from Joe Gargano.
+
+[24:06] Okay. This question in from Buddha regarding bacon substitution. Hi, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, Joe, et al. Are there any good substitutes for bacon or pork in recipes for soups or other dishes where they are used mainly as a flavoring and not as a focus? I'm a lifelong vegetarian and I've never intentionally eaten meat, let alone bacon.
+
+[24:25] Uh, although you know, you know, uh everyone knows this. Everyone knows bacon's delicious, so you don't eat it, but I mean, obviously, you know that it's delicious, even though you haven't eaten it because it's just straight up is, right? Right. Yeah. Uh, I'm a lifelong okay, never intentionally eaten meat, let alone bacon.
+
+[24:39] Normally when I come across a recipe that calls for bacon, hammer pork, I will just leave it out. Obviously, I avoid recipes in which the meat is the bulk or main item. Recently, I've come to realize that this is leaving me with bland recipes that are clearly missing something. Most likely strong flavor components from the meat. Navy bean soup has this.
+
+[24:57] I'm assuming a much uh navy bean soup has, I'm assuming, a much different flavor profile with and without ham. Uh this most recently came to a head when trying to adapt a cheddar ale recipe I found on the Sirius Eats blog. What can I do to overcome this issue? I am an ovo lacto vegetarian, so solutions involving dairy or eggs are fine with me. When I've asked for solutions to this among my friends, who may be foodies but not necessarily chefs, the general answer is it can't be done, or to add some salt, fat, and liquid smoke.
+
+[25:26] Thanks for your thoughts, and I hope cooking issues continu uh continues to entertain and enlighten Buddha. Okay, this is a great question. Uh and the issue is is that uh a lot of chefs who don't have uh, you know, certain constraints, you know, whether you want to call them constraints or not, but you know, certain ingredients that they won't use, uh, they tend to uh ignore the the problem and say things like, Oh, I just can't do it, or just add something that's you know relatively not so good. Like uh and by the way, there are good liquid smokes. Uh, and obviously smoke is one of the components in bacon and something that you're gonna be missing if you don't have smoking this.
+
+[26:01] But there are there are better ways than using uh a low-quality liquid smoke. High quality liquid smoke is good stuff, but it's also hard to dose liquid smoke. You add a little too much liquid smoke and all of a sudden there's there's problems. Anyway, back to that. Uh so uh the the the question, and people, like I say, they they ignore it.
+
+[26:17] Me, on the other hand, even though I eat bacon, you know, quite often, uh, and I use it a lot as a seasoning meat. I think you know, bacon and country ham are two of my most favorite seasoning meats where you don't actually have to use that much of it to get a good result. But uh saying what can you do uh to get around it is to me is an interesting problem and something to solve. So here here here are my thoughts. What is it that bacon uh is is adding?
+
+[26:40] So it's adding salt, right? So you need to add salt. It's also adding um it's also adding smoke if you're using American bacon, which is why I like American bacon, even in recipes where I shouldn't like American bacon, like Italian recipes where Nastashi's like, you have to use pancetta because it's not authentic. And I really I don't care if it's authentic because I like the smoke, right? Stash, you you hate it, right?
+
+[27:02] Really? Yeah. Since when? You've been yelling at me for years, for years. You should use pancetta, but usually they the ones that they sell in the store is really bad.
+
+[27:11] Yeah, well, you heard it here first. Yeah, you heard it here first. It turns out that we're American and we like smoky bacon even when we should. But in Italy, the pancetta is smoky. It's just not, you can't find it here.
+
+[27:24] Whatever. Okay. Did you ever you ever buy that panchetta, the like packaged panchetta at the store? It's so bad. I've never purchased that.
+
+[27:30] Oh man. I've never good look. So Buddha, we're not answering your question. Here, back to your question. So uh smokiness is definitely something you need to replace when you're replacing a smoked ham product or a bacon product.
+
+[27:40] Now, liquid smoke isn't the way to go. So, like if you were doing a do a pizza and you wanted it to have a little bit of that uh component, right? Then uh, for instance, I I have to always when I make pizzas, I have to make them vegetarian, completely vegetarian because my cousin who comes over and eats at my house is vegetarian and won't eat uh you know, won't eat meat. So I can't put anchovies into my sauce, which is a normal one of my techniques that I put in, and no one's ever complained because it tastes delicious and it adds a lot of umami and so. No, he won't.
+
+[28:08] Anyway, so uh smoked mozzarella, right, is a good way to add smoke uh in that form. Uh or if you're doing a cheddar uh ale thing, use a smoked cheese, but high quality, not a crappy one where they spray fake smoke on it. Umly, smoked paprika uh or pimentone, a fantastic way to add uh smokiness to um a dish. So, right, so th you know, those are the how else do I add smoke? There's a lot of anything that you add that is smoked naturally can add some of those smoky flavors and probably does it in a way that you're gonna like better than just adding uh straight up uh liquid smoke, which like I say is hard to dose and it can it can go from being too little to all of a sudden being too much, and also a low quality liquid smoke is very monotonic.
+
+[28:52] It has one very characteristic kind of note to it, in part because of the way it's produced, and in part because you can't buy a high quality one usually. Anyway, okay. So the other things, I mean, salt is obvious, you can add salty things, but I usually like to add salty foods that aren't just adding pure salt, but to also add the umami products that you get, the meaty umami uh things that you get out of um out of things like bacon. So, how do you get that? Any food that contains uh amino acids that have been broken down somewhat into smaller uh tasty uh you know uh polypeptides and like breakdown, like protein breakdown products, especially if they've been cooked to give them some of that cooked flavor that you would get out of uh cooking bacon in a pan before you uh add the soup stuff to it, right?
+
+[29:38] Anything that's gonna add those flavors is going to make your product better. So that's when you start pulling out like uh parmesan cheese being great uh as something that adds umami because it's been aged for a long, long time and the proteins have broken down, and you get a much richer, more umami feel out of it, right? Tomato products, clearly very high in umami. Ground up cured olives, right? Are excellent uh uh umami carrying um thingamajigs.
+
+[30:05] Uh also uh liquid aminos, right? So uh fermented sauces. Now that when you think of something to add umami to soups, uh the your mind probably first goes directly to soy. The problem is if you add soy to a product, all of a sudden it uh it starts tasting Asian, right? So you can go to different products like coconut liquid aminos or any sort of fermented, broken down uh product where you're getting some of those meaty notes that you would otherwise get from a uh from adding straight meat.
+
+[30:35] Oh, and obviously mushrooms. Uh it was is it any good? Am I missing anything? No, you're good. Yeah, I mean, like, and so some combination of all of those things, but even just like making sure that you stock items that allow you to do quick uh substitutions, like a really high quality smoked pimentone, like smoked paprika, and you know, always always, you know, maybe try the coconut liquid aminos, see what you think.
+
+[30:56] Uh and just you know, work that way. I think you probably have good luck. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[31:01] Uh Ruben writes in about his home kitchen. Uh Hammerjack, Joe, and Dave. I'm an avid fan of the show. Thanks so much for all your contributions and work and for the chartreuse, which is the drink we do at the bar. It's it's really just uh chartreuse, uh, green chartreuse and uh water chilled carbonated with uh a little bit of uh clarified lime juice in it, like really carbonated.
+
+[31:21] Anyway, uh Ruben says that's one tasty beverage. I'm sure the Carthusians would agree. You know, we met the we met the president, Nastasha and Piper and I met the president of Chartreuse uh the other day, and uh he was kind of hilarious. Like, I would like to go visit those monks someday. Apparently, you know they can't talk to Carthusians when they're doing their when they're in the monastery, but if you get them outside the monastery, they uh they they they can talk.
+
+[31:42] Loved it, I loved it. I mean, that movie that they did looked incredibly boring, but I'd love to go visit them, right? Anyway, uh whatever. Okay, question. Uh I'm in the conceptual stages of renovating the kitchen in my apartment.
+
+[31:53] As a home cook and devotee of many contemporary techniques discussed here and elsewhere, I'd like to create a work area that is functional for the current state of the art, yet flexible enough to incorporate future innovations. I have a small space, don't we all, right? Uh limited budget, I'm familiar with this problem, uh and one shot at this. Much as I'd like, I don't have the luxury of putting in a completely restaurant-style work area that would render my apartment unsaleable. This is a huge problem, by the way.
+
+[32:19] So, like my kitchen at home is ridiculous, and you know, it probably would be an impediment to selling it because I have the huge deep fryer, the huge six-burner range, all this other stuff. Um, as wonderful as it is to have new ways to approach cooking, it's frustrating that uh design thinking and ergonomics have seemingly not kept pace. Hearing your recent offhand thoughts about the outdated state of technologies like home refrigeration makes me further concerned that any specialized approach uh I take might be limiting in the future. Would you share any tips, must-do's, cautionary tales, uh, or overarching philosophies or nominally related tangents, uh, familiar with us, I guess. Uh you or uh have uh faced or anyone you know is faced with similar quandaries.
+
+[32:57] Thanks much. Ruben, okay. Uh here's the thing. So uh look, at home, you know, I it's very hard. You have to choose whether you're either going to have uh convenient, like convenient, easy home stuff, or you have in the past, had to choose between easy, convenient home stuff and uh like hardcore restaurant stuff.
+
+[33:18] And the hardcore restaurant stuff has a lot of problems for homes. For instance, regular restaurant uh kitchen stoves throw off a boatload of heat. They're not as well insulated. Uh they typically have standing pilots, it means they're running all the time. So in the summertime they really heat up your house.
+
+[33:35] Uh in fact, in the summertime, I turn the pilot off in my oven and I just leave my oven off and I do all my cooking in the salamander and and on my uh on my crepe maker for most of the time because uh no one wants to have that oven raging during the during the summertime. It's crazy. Right. So for some reason, there is a there's a real disconnect. So, you know, the most that most people at home, and and I wouldn't recommend getting that, even if you could resell your house with it.
+
+[34:00] And by the way, the professional stove, like a lar a lot of people get freaked out by it. Like they don't, especially mine, because it's all PID controlled and like electronic and you have to plug it in in five different places. My mine, mine in particular is a nightmare. But people get weirded out by it. They love the idea of these uh you can't see the quote, you know, quote marks that my fingers are making, but professional style home ones.
+
+[34:23] Most of the ones I've used that are professional style home ones are fairly lacking in terms of their output power. However, um if you can find uh like one that's like one of these kind of home professional jobs in a stainless uh that has a fairly high output burner, and I don't have any recommendations because I haven't used one at home. I I use uh an old garland that you know I bought at a restaurant auction for almost nothing. But by the way, another tack you can take uh with a limited budget is to go to restaurant auctions if you live in a place where there's a restaurant auction, get the commercial oven that you actually want, install it, and and when it comes time to uh sell your apartment, throw it away and buy a normal uh oven to put into your into your kitchen. That's what I plan on doing, like when I sell my apartment.
+
+[35:09] I'm just gonna rip out my oven that it's put in like many, many years of good service to me that I bought for $500 including the salamander at an auction right uh I'm just gonna hurl it you know into the abyss or give it to someone who wants it to be someone you should option please my it will be unsafe I can't actually give it to anyone because so many modifications that I wouldn't want anyone else to have to give them it with the what's it called I don't know what that means it says I don't know that yeah whatever anyway yeah sure so I can get so I can get my butt handed to me. Anyway the um point being that you can put that in for very little money if you're willing to put up with the inconvenience and then later put in uh a new unit but I wouldn't necessarily go there but you definitely need uh good high output burners uh if you have a lot of electricity and you don't have a lot of ventilation induction might be the way to go if your cookware it can stand it although I have to say having grown up I mean I honestly believe that induction is the wave of the future uh but you know I'm an old school like you know gas flame fiend and I don't know that the in the induction I I use induction at work exclusively because we don't have gas burners at work and I still I still would feel very sad if I didn't have my gas burners at my house. You know what about you stuzz? Yeah definitely although an electric oven might be the way to go I mean it depends on how much modification you're willing to do and how handy you are I mean I I recommend having a uh a deep fryer only for me most people wouldn't do that and that would destroy the resale value of your kitchen so I wouldn't do that although I highly recommend owning one if you if if you want to become a monk of the fry then you need to have a real fryer. I think that's just the case.
+
+[36:48] Anyway, but but you're not gonna do that, so it doesn't matter. Well, I would just maximize your counter space. Uh from a I would get, you know, six burners that can do a really good job that also throttle down to a low enough setting that that uh you know they're still useful. Make sure your oven uh has a full sheet pan capacity. If you have a full sheet pan capacity oven and six burners, and then you you give yourself enough space to have a um enough space to have all the ancillary equipment like your circulators uh or you know, counter space for the vacuum, things like this, then I think you're gonna be in good shape.
+
+[37:26] Problem uh also I would throw away here's the big thing I think everyone mistake everyone makes. They have all these different kinds of bowls and all these different kinds of gotzis in their kitchen, and then they they never know how to use them and never find them. If like uh I'll give you the quick example. You have to plan to have space in your kitchen to have the stuff out. My old uh loft, the uh my pasta machine, my the roller, you know, the Atlas pasta machine roller was bolted to my countertop.
+
+[37:51] So consequently, I made pasta uh about uh once a week. Once or twice a week, depending. I would make pasta because everything was out, and the amount of time it took me to make the pasta was roughly equivalent to the amount of time it would take me to cook dry pasta because I was so fast because I did it all the time. Uh in my new kitchen, I don't have space, it's not bolted to the counter. I've lived there for ten years, and in ten years I've made pasta ten times because the stuff's not out.
+
+[38:20] You need to have so like I think the main problem people make when they're when they're trying to, if they want to use something all the time at home, you have to make it convenient. And I would have uh a mixture of open and closed storage so that your uh open storage is very fast, you don't have to worry about it. I would throw away all your odd-size bowls, I would go to a kitchen supply store and buy inexpensive stainless steel bowls uh in four sizes. I would buy six of each size: large, uh a very small for Mise en plus stuff, and then uh uh a next size up, a next size up, and a large. I would have stacks of those.
+
+[38:56] Do not stack them inside of each other, put them next to each other. Get two, like two or three different sizes of stackable uh like Pyrexes or measuring cups in two different sizes and have those things out so that they work and get like, you know, easy to use things for like uh bulk storage of flour that seal properly so that you don't get vermin problems. And like though that's like the biggest, that's like the biggest thing. You know what I mean? Like keeping those stuff uh in and out and being able to grab those things very quickly.
+
+[39:23] Then make like I say, make sure you have enough room for your circulator and make sure you have enough power. The problem with a lot of these new techniques is that uh you're plugging stuff in and then all of a sudden you don't have enough power and you're blowing circuits. So you're running your nuke at the same time that you're running your rice cooker, and if you have an electric uh pressure cooker and you're starting blowing circuits everywhere. So think about trying to run a few extra circuits in and just make sure you have enough burner work. And the last thing I will say is please try to get uh good ventilation into your kitchen.
+
+[39:53] I have done I shouldn't see this, but like illegally vented my kitchen. Uh I put a uh um like a what's the word? You know, dryer ducts? Yeah, dryer duct. So it looks like I have a dryer duct, but I've been venting my whole kitchen uh out of it.
+
+[40:08] And you have to be really careful and know what you're doing to make sure that you're not causing a fire hazard when you're venting from uh you know, like a kitchen. But even if it means just putting a good fan in your window and trying to get the stuff out, please make sure you ventilate properly because when you're doing uh finishing of low temperature meats that you've cooked, you generate a lot of smoke and it can be problematic if you don't vent. Does this make any sense? Alright. So let's take one more commercial break and come back with cooking issues.
+
+[41:15] Whoa. This is a very dark cover of the Hearst Ranch grass-fed beef song. Yeah, it's like cows going to slaughter. You see, he says whenever she says something like that, she leans back. I hope you folks at the home heard that.
+
+[41:29] Yeah, she's like, yeah, he's you think you think uh Joel's focusing on the slaughter aspect? It's like imagine like playing that, like I can imagine like the helicopters flying in and like you know, strafing the cows. Yeah. So, you know, slaughter of slaughter via minigun. Hurst ranch, grass fed beef.
+
+[41:49] Crazy. Alright. Uh Tom Flash and writes in uh at drink a drink away time, which is uh I guess his Twitter handle, uh for stabilizing frozen drinks like margaritas, is gum type important. Xanthan, Arabic, guar, etc. Okay, look.
+
+[42:07] I have not done a lot of testing uh trying to stabilize frozen drinks, but here's the problem. Uh so if you're talking about a frozen drink in a blender, right? The issue with stabilizing it is that ice floats. And when you're blending, you're making little ice crystals. So you what you have in general is a nice uh kind of mixture of ice crystals and drink.
+
+[42:28] Then slowly the ice crystals s uh float up to the top and and it breaks. Now, I guess what you're suggesting is to add enough of a thickener to the product such that those ice crystals remain suspended. Now I guess it's possible to do it, and if it was very slushy, it wouldn't be a problem. Uh you wouldn't want to use so your choices were Xanthan, Arabic, guar. Okay.
+
+[42:54] So Arabic is not so much a uh gonna be good for um keeping keeping the ice particle stationary. Assuming we're even talking about the same thing. I think we are, right? Uh Arabic is gonna be more good at uh stabilizing air bubbles and foams, right? So for adding like a good, you know, foamy head, or for emulsifying oils into something.
+
+[43:16] So it's very good uh at emulsifying and it's good at kind of uh at adding body, but you have to add a whole boatload of Arabic for you to get like great viscosity out of it because uh Arabic is one of the very few hydrocolloids that is ping pong ball shaped instead of spaghetti shaped. And ping pong ball shaped things are m imagine trying to punch through uh a bunch of ping pong balls a lot easier than trying to punch through a mat of spaghetti or felt, right? So think about it. So uh um gum arabic, ping pong ball shaped can, and that's why you can have extremely high concentrations of gum arabic and still have things be liquid. So I wouldn't necessarily use uh Arabic if if the application you're talking about is what I think you're talking about.
+
+[44:03] Now, uh guar, uh problem with guar, uh aside from the fact that nine tenths of guar uh is not good. It tastes beanie because it hasn't been refined enough. Uh but you can get really good refined guar called flavor-free guar. A couple people make it, but the one I use is from T I C gums called flavor-free guar. Plus also, you know guar very expensive now due to fracking, fracking, fracking.
+
+[44:24] Uh we talked about that a million times, right? Okay, so I don't need to talk about it again. Although it makes me angry. Anyway, uh not the fracking, the guar. And uh, I mean, I mean maybe the fracking makes me angry.
+
+[44:32] I just don't know enough about it. Anyway, uh, that's not what I'm talking about. The problem with guar is that uh guar is literally just a thickening agent. So it'll slow down uh how fast ice crystals are moving through the liquid, but it's not going to stop them, right? Because guar solutions have no what's called yield point.
+
+[44:49] They they flow slowly, but they always flow, right? So uh I mean uh just imagine this. They just they always it's just a matter of how fast they flow. Xanthan, on the other hand, which is the first one that you uh mentioned, Xanthan gum has what's called a yield point, which means that uh even in fairly low concentrations, uh unless a product is moving, the um it Xanthan acts like a gel. There's no movement at all.
+
+[45:21] It's stationary. And then once you apply any force, it undergoes what's called shear thinning, and it turns to a liquid very, very quickly, right? Very quickly. And this is a uh this is a like a well-known uh property of Xanthan, and it's why you can use Xanthan in combinations with other things to um do things like uh stop uh pepper and other salad parts, you know, salad dressing particles from floating to the top. You can keep them suspended.
+
+[45:44] Uh you know, fluid gels are also very good at this. So you can use so orbits, the old orbits uh drink that had those little balls floating in them was a fluid gel that was made out of gel-an gum that was blended, and then with xanthan added. Right. Also, if you thicken somewhat with something like guar, you can add less xanthan. Here are the problems, right?
+
+[46:07] Uh over xanthan products uh have a snotty, slimy texture to them. So you can add some, but you can't add too much. If you add like a quarter percent, if that's enough to suspend it, then you're okay. But if you have to add much more than a quarter percent of xanthan, uh you want to want to start adding other things to help uh you know help hold with the xanthan, or you get these kind of snotty, slimy textures. The other thing is is that the ability of a fluid gel or a hydrocolloid like xanthan with a yield point to suspend particles like ice is very dependent on the density difference between uh the products you're suspending and the size of the particles.
+
+[46:44] So the bigger the density difference, the harder it is to suspend. And the larger the particle with a given density difference, the harder it is to suspend. Ice is quite a bit less dense than uh than the drink that it's in. Quite a bit less. And so it can be fairly hard to keep suspended.
+
+[47:01] But that said, you could try some Xanthan, and maybe anyone else out there has tried this, they can give it a shot. Uh the only problem is if the drink sits around for a long time and you've suspended it, once it melts, it'll have that weird uh Xanthan look to it, right? Right. So if someone's gonna pound it right away, I guess it's not a big problem. But anyway, I I could think more about it, but those are just my current thoughts.
+
+[47:21] Yeah? Good. Yeah, yeah, stuff is like. I need her there. She's like, she's like, Dave, shut up about the Xanthan, shut up.
+
+[47:26] Okay. Uh Morton Mattson writes in again, uh, which we appreciate. Uh dear Dave, thanks once again for your input on my quail egg conundrum. Because we were talking about the ISI with the quail egg, and I think that's great. I want uh, you know, someone to we like if I whatever.
+
+[47:39] I think it's a good idea. I'm very happy that I'm very happy about that. Anyway, uh I have a comment and a question for you. Firstly, I've been thinking about the question you had in last week about the use of nanoparticles in food. And so uh just to recap, uh, you know, there's these particles, nanoparticles, and uh particle size is not regulated uh by um the FDA, and therefore uh, you know, something that could be safe in normal size uh might possibly be rendered unsafe by turning it into tiny, tiny, tiny particles.
+
+[48:09] So um right, so that is what we're talking about. Um the first thing that popped into my head was the appearance of nanoparticle solutions. A solution of even-sized nanoparticles will appear as a clear colored liquid. The uh color of liquid is determined directly by the size of the nanoparticles. The reason uh a clear, by the way, clear colored, you know, a lot of people when they when they think about clear, they they the right thing to think about is clear versus cloudy, and then color versus uh, you know, non colored, right?
+
+[48:40] So a cloudy, colorless solution is white, and a you know, a clear colored solution, it has a color to it. Now a lot of people have this issue when they when we talk about clarification, they expect clarification to take the color out. Clarification clarification doesn't take the color out. Clarification all it does is take out the cloudiness. Um the color of the liquid is determined directly by the size of the nanoparticles.
+
+[49:05] The reason that the solution does not appear opaque as milk is that the scattering regime changes when the particle size gets comparable with the wavelength of visible light. And by the way, emulsions are cloudy because um this is me talking now. Uh emulsions are cloudy because um the particles scatter light. Once you have what's called a microemulsion and the actual thing, you know, the the emulsified product in it, uh all of a sudden the particles get smaller than the wavelength of light, then the emulsion goes clear. Anyway, um this random.
+
+[49:33] Um in this regime, the behavior is determined by me scattering. Uh I think it's pronounced me, although I don't know. I think so. Anyway, uh one application of this could be coloring drinks uh as almost any desired color could be achieved. Secondly, one could imagine changing the solution such that the nanoparticles flocculate together and change the appearance of the solution completely.
+
+[49:50] Could we could have used this kind of concept when we were dealing with uh with that uh drink you had to make in Florida that time, remember, Stas? Yes, I know. Yeah, yeah. Coloidal gold solutions are one candidate for this purpose. I've seen colloidal gold solutions approved for medical applications, so I would imagine they could be consumed.
+
+[50:05] Uh generally on the issue of safety, I would agree with you that it is an issue that is riddled with biased thinking. It is of course also a very complicated issue since the properties of the materials uh change when the particles become nano-sized. This is of course also why we generally find them so interesting. Uh I felt that one cannot make any general statements on the safety of nanoparticles. Rather, one should consider each one individually.
+
+[50:25] And before I go on to the question, is that's the comment, uh, before I go on to the question, let me just say I went and looked on the internet at the uh at the at pictures of uh different size gold nanoparticle solutions. And you know what really struck me is that the color difference based on the size of it very, very closely looks like the exact color shift that happens to anthocyanin pigments when the pH is changed. So they go from red to uh blue to well, red to violet, to blue to green, to colorless. So uh you know I and I'm I never actually thought about it before. What the heck is going on when you're changing the pH uh with anthocyanins?
+
+[51:05] I mean it's gotta be something where you're changing the conformation or something of the anthocyanin and therefore um you know changing its reaction to the way it scatters light, but I never really thought about it. It's interesting that the gold the gold solutions look almost exactly like anthocyanin solutions at different pHs. Well I mean it's interesting to me, probably to no one else. Definitely not to nostalgia. Nastash is like, please can I buy some shoes on Zappos?
+
+[51:26] Please asked me, he got the wrong size the other day. So what? Are you for real? You and Piper ordering shoes for twice. I think we single-handedly support Zappos.
+
+[51:36] I've never ordered shoes on Zappos. You've never ordered shoes on Zappos. Never. What shoe site do you shop on? Zero.
+
+[51:42] I go to pay less shoe source. You go to payless on Delancey. They have a website. Payless? No.
+
+[51:49] I go there by myself. Whatever. Whatever. She's not wearing pay less shoes right now. Yes, I am.
+
+[51:53] These are payless. Well, whatever. That then whatever. I'm not gonna get it. Okay.
+
+[51:58] So uh the actual question deals with acrylamide. Within the last couple of days here in Denmark, all the news have been dominated by scares of acrylamide in food. The reason for this is the Technical University of Denmark has published a new study uh where they connected acrylamide to cancer. And I couldn't get that study. Did you get email that study, Nastash?
+
+[52:14] I couldn't get the study. Maybe it's only in Danish. I was looking for it, I couldn't find it. Anyway, uh the Technical University of Denmark has published a new study where they have connected acrylamide to cancer, presumably connected again because it's been connected a bunch of times and then debunked and then connected and then debunked. This, of course, is nothing new in general, but their study includes statistics for humans as well as rats and mice.
+
+[52:34] In general, for these studies, I've always felt it's not fair to compare studies made on animals to humans. Humans are unique in having cooked and eaten foods for thousands of years and therefore having been exposed to these products of cooking. I would like it if you could say a few wise words, well I don't know about that. A few wise words about acrylamide. The problem here in Denmark is that the scare has reached a level where politicians are talking about making regulations towards acrylamide.
+
+[52:54] Since this means not being able to buy bread with a crust or even crunchy french fries, I'm naturally opposed to the idea. It seems that scientists making the studies have been victims of oversimplifications in the media, but still their results remain. I've seen a couple of papers where enzymes, specifically uh asparagonase, have been used to reduce acrylamide in potato chips. Does one need to worry about acrylamide, or is this another minor extra risk that we should be willing to take for the sake of good food? And also, can we find reasonable means of reducing acrylamide without compromising the food we all love?
+
+[53:22] Best wishes, Morton Madsen. Interesting question. So for those of you that are fresh to the acrylamide problem, here it is. In 2002, Swedish scientists uh found that what was known is known or has been known as both a uh human um like mu like me like uh reproductive harm, like mutagen, right, and also possible carcinogen, acrylamide, uh at least it was found to cause cancer or have been found to cause cancer in uh laboratory animals with very high dosages, by the way. Uh turns out that it's occurring in foods, and it's not an additive.
+
+[53:59] Uh, it just happens when products get cooked at high temperatures, right? And so uh, and you know anything that is browned or and contains starch uh has been found to have uh acrylamide in it, just naturally occurring. And so when this first came out in 2002, it was a big hoopla of you know, of what was going to go on, and then of course there was the people, oh my god, they're adding the stuff to food. No, there's not adding, and it's not new. It's not some sort of new environmental problem.
+
+[54:25] It's always been there. Acrylamide has always been in our food supply. When I say always, at least since we've been cooking things. Anytime we've cooked things, uh, especially starchy things, and we've cooked them to the point where they get brown and delicious, uh, acrylamide was formed. I haven't read the uh article you were talking about uh that was talking about asparagonase, but according to the FDA, and I haven't read you know all the hard hardcore studies, uh, FDA's site says acrylamides formed from sugars and amino and an amino acid aspergine during certain types of high temperature cooking, such as frying, roasting, and baking.
+
+[54:55] So there might be some way to reduce it there. Um it becomes a really sticky thing because now all of a sudden people are saying, well, uh you ha you know, you have this product, acrylamide, and it's in all uh all of the food that we eat, right? Basically, anything that's cooked, it's brown. I mean, if you're a raw foodist, you're safe. Safe, safe.
+
+[55:16] Uh, well, from that. Uh I mean, your bowels may be a different problem. But like, you know, you're safe from acrylamide. Uh, so you know, and and even if you don't eat bread or start coffee, right, because it's roasted, cocoa, because it's roasted, anything that's roasted with its high temperature. So, what are you gonna do?
+
+[55:31] Uh, and it we have a thing in California, uh, well, I mean, I don't live in California, Stas has a thing in California called uh Prop 65. You familiar with that? No. No, no, no. You know the problem?
+
+[55:42] Like Prop 65? So in California, if you if you have a if you're on a list uh of if you if you have any product that you're selling that contains a known carcinogen, you have to write on it uh that this product contains uh something known to the state of California to cause cancer, right? And you're you're obliged to warn that it's in there. So there's a huge lawsuit because McDonald's makes like a zillion dollars selling French fries every year. And so a bunch of lawyers went and filed lawsuits in California saying that they had to warn their customers that the French fries might cause cancer because of acrylamide because it contains acrylamide.
+
+[56:14] And that was a big to-do. And you know, I mean it's foolishness, obviously, it's foolishness. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, a friend of mine was involved with it, and I told him I was like, this is foolishness because it's it's always been there, it's been there. I actually went on the internet to look it up, and there was a Starbucks that had the warning sign about acrylamide and coffee.
+
+[56:36] I don't know whether that's actually Drigueur in California or whether someone just put it up as a joke, but anyway, people are taking that uh seriously. However, uh, you know, the and here's the other problem with it. The numbers are all over the map. So I, you know, FDA has a very interesting site, and because they don't really know what's going on uh with acrylamide, they're still trying to figure out what the heck the deal is. I'll tell you, I'll tell here's what they say.
+
+[56:57] In 2013, the FDA, this is straight off their website, F FDA.gov. Uh in 2013, FDA intends to issue guidance for industry concerning acrylamide in food. Since 2002, the FDA has initiated a broad range of activities related to acrylamide. FDA's accomplishments include the following developing developing an action plan outlining the FDA's goals and planned activities, convening meetings, developing methods for measuring acrylamide, analyzing the acrylamide results, which they did. They analyzed 2,600 samples of food and acrylamide, including like they'll go to like eight different Popeyes.
+
+[57:29] I think it was more like three, but like three different Popeyes, like five different RBs, like two different Burger Kings, and they'll measure the French fries and all of them. And here's what sucks, right? So, like different establishments or even the same establishment on different days, or like one Lay's product and then a different Lay's product have vastly different, vastly different acrylamide levels. So it's not even something that's like standard that they can tell. They don't really even know.
+
+[57:54] I mean, uh, you know, they're working on ways to get rid of it. But here's here's I haven't read, I can't read the Denmark thing uh because I can't I can't get to it. I couldn't find it. But uh there is a study out that I will read the uh beginning of for you uh that came out last year. Okay?
+
+[58:11] It's called Review of the Epidemiological I'm gonna get it for you so I can get it for you exactly right. The review of the uh epit epidemiologic studies of dietary acrylamide intake and the risk of cancer. And I will read to you by Lauren Lipworth. I'll read to you the uh abstract. Conjectured associations between dietary acrylamide intake and cancer have been evaluated in more than 15 epidemiologic studies examining almost every major cancer site.
+
+[58:40] We have critically reviewed uh the epidemiologic studies of estimated dietary acrylamide exposure and cancer. As substantially greater acrylamide exposure occurs through tobacco smoke than dietary exposure, we present the results separately for never smokers or adjusted statistically for smoking status where possible. After an extensive examination of the published literature, we found no consistent or credible evidence that dietary acrylamide increases the risk of any type of cancer in humans, either overall or among non-smokers. In particular, this is the important part. The collective evidence suggests that a high level of dietary acrylamide is not a risk factor for breast endometrial or ovarian cancers, which have generated particular interest because of a conjectured hormonal hormonal mechanism for acrylamide.
+
+[59:24] Moreover, the absence of a positive association between smoking and ovarian and endometrial cancers cancers suggests that any association of these cancers with the much lower, more sporadic dietary acrylamide intake is unlikely. In conclusion, epidemiologic studies of dietary acrylamide have uh intake have failed to demonstrate an increased risk of cancer, and here's my favorite part. In fact, the sporadically and slightly increased and decreased risk of ratios reported in more than two dozen papers uh strongly suggest the pattern one would expect to find for a true null association over the course of a series of trials. There. Therefore, uh continued epidemiologic investigation of acrylamide and cancer risk appears to be a misguided research primary pri uh priority.
+
+[1:00:06] In a reaction to that, uh there was a reaction to that, uh, and not uh not unsurprisingly, it was called Reaction on the Acrylamide and Cancer Review by Lipworth and colleagues by uh Janekie uh Hogeworst out of um uh where is this from? They're from the Netherlands, and they they basically they disagree with some of the things, but their conclusion is some weak sauce. They're can the actual criticism in this article that is we believe that the author's statement that continued epidemiologic research into the possible link between dietary acrylamide exposure and cancer appears to be a misguided priority, is itself misguided and based on flawed reasoning. We should be working towards better classification of dietary acrylamide exposure and establishing the possible mode of action rather than giving up on it entirely. So they're like, well, you know, we should give up, just not entirely.
+
+[1:00:53] You know? That's like a weak way to end your paper, right? Weak weak, weak. We'll give up, but just not entirely. But uh, I can't find the Denmark study.
+
+[1:01:00] Uh but I'm gonna say this. If I have a slightly increased cancer rate, and this is a horrible thing to say flippy, but it like if there is a slight, slight uptick, and it means that I can't ever have delicious French fries again, to hell with it. I'm having the French fries, cooking issues. Hey Dave. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:17] We've got one more write in. Uh somebody wants to suggest inflamo. For the uh Inflammo. Inflammo. Oh, wait, and Jack, uh, I know we're late.
+
+[1:01:26] We have a contest here. We do. We have one final contest. So the Just Food Conference, and if you don't know who Just Food is, they're a nonprofit organization that connects communities with local farms. Really cool people.
+
+[1:01:29] We love them. We'll be doing a presentation on how to make your own podcast. The conference is this weekend, and we're giving away two tickets to the listener who can tell me the original theme song for cooking issues. So tweet us, email us, info at heritage radio network dot org, and uh hopefully you win. What are they what are they what are they gonna get again?
+
+[1:01:54] Two tickets to the Just Food Conference, which is this weekend. Okay, so hurry up. Hurry up. Cooking issues! Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:02:16] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:02:40] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairway market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:01] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie. Woo! Nice. Nice.
+
+[1:07] Come to you live! Are we uh are we in Bushwick or Bushwick Brooklyn? What sh is it? Uh the second one. And you know it's Bushwick because someone's jackhammering on our roof.
+
+[1:18] Don't worry, it's just a radio station. How you doing, Stas? Okay. That's crazy. You hear that?
+
+[1:24] I feel like this might be like, you know, Yosemite Sam's gonna come falling through the ceiling. Yeah. Yeah? Joined as usual with Jack and Joe in the uh engineering booth. How you guys doing?
+
+[1:33] Hello. Yeah? Doing pretty good. Yeah, nice. Alright.
+
+[1:36] Going to questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. We might even be able to hear you over the jackhammering. Maybe. Maybe.
+
+[1:44] So I was reminded by something. Uh I biked here, and uh again being out of shape and old. It's my I'm 42 now. Woo! Just had my birthday.
+
+[1:50] Yeah. Uh besides being out of shape and old and having someone jackhammer above my head, uh, I was uh thinking about biking. Uh we saw I saw someone last week. Uh and uh biking through the streets in New York, and they were on the ground in a bloody pile, holding their head, rolling and writhing in pain, surrounded by a group of people waiting for the ambulance to show up. And what's the moral of this?
+
+[2:16] Wear a freaking helmet, people! If you're out there biking, wear a freaking helmet. I don't care how important your hair is to you. You know who I'm talking to, Brooklyn hipsters. Put on a helmet.
+
+[2:27] What do you guys think of the engineering booth about helmets? I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah. I mean, I it You know it's a bad look, uh like uh bleeding out of your head. That's a pretty bad look.
+
+[2:38] Yeah, it's a terrible, and I'll tell you what, like everyone they move here from wherever they came from, right? Like they go to college or they do whatever they're gonna do, they move to New York, and they think that biking here is just like biking when they were kids back in like east wherever they come from. You know what I'm saying? And here you will get hit by a car, you will get doored, something awful will happen to you. You'll get your head cracked open, and you might even die.
+
+[3:03] Wear a freaking helmet. That's see, I drive, so I know exactly how crazy people are in cars. Yeah. That's good point. Uh well, you know, I'm that kind of guy.
+
+[3:12] Like when I'm a pedestrian, I hate bikers in cars. When I drive a car, I hate pedestrians and but I just I hate whoever I'm not at the time. But I try to be polite on the road. Anywho. Okay.
+
+[3:23] Uh Michael Barfis writes in with two questions. One hilarious and the other one kind of normal. Right. I I have to say, I really shouldn't bring it up because you guys at home can't do anything about it, but this hammering over my head's really driving me banana. It's like being at the dentist.
+
+[3:36] This is what it's like for you at the dentist? Yeah. Nastasha, by the way, I hope that I mean, obviously, her dentist is not a listener to the show. No. But uh, you know, Nastasha's dentist is, I swear to God, a used car salesperson.
+
+[3:48] She will sell Nastasha any line of dental work. Anything, anything. Like, she's like, Oh, you know what? You need to have all your teeth ripped out and then the exact same ones put back in. You're gonna be under.
+
+[3:59] Trust me, I did that work. You owe me a lot of money. And Saz is like, hey, it's no problem. I got dental insurance. Doesn't matter that like only one tenth of all this crap that's happening is covered, and that you're paying for this lady's uh kids' college.
+
+[4:10] She just had a new baby. Oh, well, nothing she needs more than Nastasha's money. And Stash's like, but she's so nice. She's so nice. She has small hands.
+
+[4:19] She's Japanese. What does that have to do with anything? I like you don't want big meat hooks in your mouth. Okay, whatever gets the job done, Stas. You know, if someone's gonna take my teeth out and drill holes in me, I'm not worried about the thickness of their digits, if you know what I'm saying.
+
+[4:32] Anyway, uh Michael Barthes writes in. Um, first, I live in Ohio and have pretty hard well water drawn straight from limestone bedrock. I don't know its exact composition, but it's probably mostly calcium carbonate with enough iron to make it taste kind of bad until the iron oxidizes, precipitates out, and stains everything, at which point the water tastes fine. Iron in the water is a kind of a pain in the butt. How is your water in California?
+
+[4:54] Awful. Awful. Like sulfury awful or like hard awful? Like did it lather when you were in the shower or no? No.
+
+[5:01] No, no lather? And that's about as much information I want about that as possible. Okay, uh after reading your post on nictimalization, nixtimalization, by the way, is uh the process whereby you take uh calcium uh hydroxide uh and uh called cal, and you uh cook corn with it, and it breaks down the the outside the uh endosperm of the corn, as well as uh doing a bunch of awesome other things like making it taste awesome and making the hydrocolloids out of the endosperm that make masa such an amazing thing. Anyway, uh, and freeing up niacin, a whole bunch of great stuff. Anyway, uh after reading your post on nixamalization, I put two and two together and realized that it was not my excellent timing that made my broccoli so firm and green, but the hard water I was boiling it in.
+
+[5:39] Uh and the the reason why, for those of you that don't know, and this is going to come up later, is uh calcium uh cross-links with pectin. Uh and and when that happens, the pectin becomes much more uh stable towards uh being broken down at uh in high temperatures. So when the calcium cross-links with the pectin and forms the the you know the uh crossing pectin, then the like even boiling it for what would normally make a mushy product, right? Uh because pectin is the main thing causing the kind of crunchiness and the hardness of vegetables. If you stabilize the pectin, it keeps stuff crunchy longer, right?
+
+[6:13] Anyway, and uh the other interesting thing about it is that uh so if you're using calcium hydroxide, two things are working against each other, right? You're supposed to add a pinch of baking soda to water. If you're having problems with uh your vegetables turning um your vegetables turning uh what's the word I'm looking for? Brown, right? Because the chlorophyll is getting ruined.
+
+[6:30] Um so what happens is is uh that's accentuated by acidic things. So you add a pinch of baking soda to your water. Uh the water uh becomes slightly basic and that preserves the green, so you get bright green vegetables. The problem is that basic conditions also destabilize pectin, make it break down much faster. So the problem is you get mushy products, so mushy broccoli if you add baking soda to your water.
+
+[6:52] Uh if you use calcium hydroxide instead of baking soda, the calcium by crosslinking with the pectin uh cancels out the problem that you have with uh the basicity of the baking of of like normal basic things like baking soda because calcium hydroxide is basic, and therefore you could have green things that aren't mushy by cooking them with a pinch of calcium hydroxide in the water. Anywho, anywho. So uh the calcium in uh in Michael's water is causing his broccoli to not go crappy. Uh that was a long way of saying that. Just to explain what the hell we're talking about here.
+
+[7:22] Okay. Uh this made me wonder if I've effectively got less basic lime water on tap. Well, you have water high in calcium, anyway. Uh what sort of benefits for being prepared in or with hard water, and uh what other sorts of stuff benefits from being prepared in or with hard water, and what should I do about the iron in it? I know I'll definitely only make pickles with hard water in the future.
+
+[7:45] Uh okay. Well, I mean, we all know uh hard water, it depends on how hard your water is, right? So, I mean, the obvious thing about uh additional, and it also depends, I mean, in your specific case, your hardness is coming from calcium. So, one of the benefits you're gonna get from it is uh is um uh increased firmness in vegetables that are boiled in it, okay? Even though as you're boiling it, so the calcium is kind of precipitating out, and so you have those probably I'm guessing those nasty rings around the outside of uh of your pan.
+
+[8:14] I actually forgot to look up how to get rid of the iron in a normal way because I was focused mainly on the calcium. You have me with calcium, and then my my brain went on fritz, and I didn't look up the iron. But um the obvious problem, right? So, I mean you probably know what the problems are, but the obvious problem is things that you want to get really soft, things like beans, right? So uh beans have the problem that uh you know you're trying to get them soft, and if you add anything that contains calcium to the water or too much calcium to the water, the beans might never ever go soft.
+
+[8:44] And the same thing happens if you at if you accidentally add if you let's say you're making baked beans, and like me, you like uh a little bit of vinegar in your baked beans to have that acidity, and you make the mistake, as I only ever made once, of adding the acidity early in the cook process, and then you realize your beans never go hard. You ever have anyone try to make baked beans for you? You don't like baked beans, right? Because you got brain problems? Oh, you like them.
+
+[9:04] You ever have anyone give you one that was like hard? It's because they added the acidity early in the cook process, or they cooked with really hard water, or even worse, both. Uh so I mean that's obviously a detriment. But the other place where I see you have a really, really large advantage with hard, hard water, uh, and if it's basic, basic water, is in uh noodles uh and in some bread formulations. So uh making something more basic and increasing the uh calcium and other minerals in water uh tends to increase the uh increase the uh tenacity of gluten structures, right?
+
+[9:38] So you get firmer dough. Now, this is especially true when you're looking at noodles, specifically Chinese noodles. So if you if you do the research on consui, which is a mixture of I think potassium uh uh carbonate and sodium bicarbonate, or some mixture of those things, basic things, uh often with calcium, uh these are added to noodles to enhance the gluten structure of the noodles, and that which makes them more elastic and stretchy, and also in certain cases makes them kind of a bright yellow. So if you see those kind of they're called yellow alkaline noodles, and they're made by adding consui. However, the speculation is that this technique derived from uh trying to mimic uh the product that was made from people who had wells with exceedingly hard and alkaline water.
+
+[10:21] So you could see a significant benefit in uh certain types of noodles and also certain types of uh bread doughs. Now, if your water is too hard, obviously you can you know go too far over that edge and it's no longer an advantage anymore. But I would guess your your main points of uh diversion in terms of it of being lucky with your with your calcium water is uh things like vegetables, also preserving fruits and preserving tomatoes. I would suspect that if you use a canned tomato, if you have enough calcium in your water, you might not need to add as much calcium chloride or other form of calcium to the to the mix to get the um tomatoes to stay hard. And this is gonna dovetail nicely with another question we have later in the show.
+
+[11:06] Uh but you might also uh you know be able to uh do things like have berries stay together better if you're making preserves out of them, assuming that you have extra water added to it, which you typically wouldn't, but but there you have it anyway. In fact, uh well anyway, I'll do your second question and then I'll go to the other question based on on berries, which I was gonna handle handle later. What do you think? Is that good? Yeah.
+
+[11:28] I have to have I have to always I never know like whether I've been talking for one minute or or 15 minutes, so I have to look over at this is what I'm doing why I always ask Nastasha whether that's okay or not, is because I have no idea what I've just said. So I have to ask her whether it's okay. So what are you shopping for today? I'm not shopping. Okay.
+
+[11:45] Uh if anyone out there, which I doubt works for the Zappos Corporation. Oh my gosh, I've never bought cheese from that. This is what I want someone to confirm. I want someone to break whatever sort of customer confidentiality you have and just send us an email that says yes, we've received the orders. Yes, my name is not on file.
+
+[12:01] Payless. I told you. Ah, payless. Okay, Michael, second question. Second, how safe is it to use transglutaminase in first aid?
+
+[12:10] This is a hilarious one, right? So transglutaminase, I'll just finish the question first. I'm gonna try to not go tangential until I finish the question. It's it's my uh my uh 42-year old resolution to try to not go hyper tangential before finishing the question. Oh, 42.
+
+[12:25] Uh on the one hand, it seems like it could be good. Uh quickly closing cuts and preventing them from easily being pulled back open. On the other hand, it seems like it could be extremely bad, potentially sealing in anaerobic bacteria or else short circuiting the natural healing process and causing terrible or awesome scars. I guess it depends on uh you know your view of terrible or awesome. You know, there's people who make scars on purpose, like a form of you know, body uh art there.
+
+[12:52] I don't expect it to be uh replacement for stitches if they're needed, but ordinary wince and slap a bandit on it cuts heal well enough without professional attention. So can it be done safely? And if so, is it worth the effort? Thanks, I love the show. It'd been tearing through the archives.
+
+[13:06] Uh okay, so uh for those of you we haven't talked about it in a while, so I'll I'll mention what it is in case you don't know what it is. Transglutaminase is a an enzyme that cross-links uh proteins. Okay? So uh it it it literally takes uh two amino acids from two different protein chains and covalently bonds them together to form a kind of protein aggregate uh polymer, right? It's a covalent bond, it's not an ionic thing.
+
+[13:34] Once it's made, it can only be broken uh physically. Even cooking it, right, doesn't denature or what denatures the protein, but it doesn't break that bond. So um what uh you know what two things were joined by transglutaminase, let no one put asunder. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so uh our bodies have transglutaminase in them.
+
+[13:53] This is a natural uh part of your body. In fact, blood clotting to go back to wound stuff, uh blood clotting it what happens is is there's an initial thing uh that you form uh thrombin, right? Uh it well how's it work? You have five you have fibers, right? Thrombinacs on it, it forms these aggregates of fibers.
+
+[14:12] Then those aggregates of fibers are glued together into big clots by transglutaminase in your uh in your blood system in your body in the presence of calcium. So going back to calcium again, transglutaminase in your body is dependent on calcium for uh proper activation. Okay? Now, microbial transglutaminase, which is meat glue, which is the stuff that we use to bond different pieces of meat together. One of the amazing things about it, other than the fact that it's not derived from an animal, is that it uh in fact it's kind of unusual, right?
+
+[14:43] To have something that's derived from uh a microbe that actually bonds things together instead of breaking them apart. I haven't thought about it, but most of the stuff that I get actually breaks stuff apart. Huh. Anyway, uh, and what? I said tangentials.
+
+[14:58] Oh, tangentials. Uh I thought you said something far more inappropriate. Uh anyway, so uh microbial transglutaminase can bond stuff together without calcium. So uh the theory is then can you use this thing to bond your skin together? And um well, the idea, I mean, uh, you're not gonna have a problem with anaerobic stuff.
+
+[15:15] Um, but the idea, uh I mean, people have asked me before, and it's it's hilarious, but also kind of like horrifying that you would take this powder uh for cooking and like kind of glue yourself together with it, because everyone always asks when we're teaching uh meat glue, like whether or not it will glue your skin together. And the joke we always make uh is that well, if you sand your forehead until it's bloody, and then sand your hand until it's bloody, and then bandage your your hand to your forehead uh and let it sit there without moving for four hours, then yes, you could probably bond it. But then you could always rip it off, you know, because the bond that you make with transglutaminase is usually only as strong as the bond between two adjacent pieces of muscle. Right? It doesn't bond it usually as strong as uh, you know, the whole muscle, unless it's in the presence of a lot of salt, etc.
+
+[15:59] Whatever. Uh so, and also in microbial transglutaminase the stuff that you buy, Activa, especially if you get the RM, there's milk protein in it, which you don't want to like have in your wound, all this other stuff. Although you can get one with straight gelatin. But uh, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. So I went and looked it up.
+
+[16:15] And there's a company that in uh I believe, you know, sometime in the in the early mid-2000s, called Life Bond, L-I-F-E-B-O-N D, um, is making some goop, some uh some transglutaminase gelatin goop. And they say that it's almost completely biomimetic, i.e., well, the word is self-evident, biomimetic, and it's an awesome word. Even Stas is sitting there going, biomimetic, biomemetic in her head. I can see her saying it. Uh so like uh that's I don't know what kind of robot voice it is, anyway.
+
+[16:45] Uh they're making this goop that you can put into your wounds and um and actually it speeds healing. One of the things they're looking at is in battlefield situations where you need to like stop big wounds quickly uh and put things together in a way that can stop like high pressure arterial bleeds, uh, they're they're working on it. So uh it's very interesting. You know, and I'll read you from uh from their patent. Most high pressure hemostatic devices currently on the market, and high pressure hemostatic devices mainly means can stop blood in a high pressure, like an arterial situation.
+
+[17:18] That's that's translated right down uh or sideways, uh, currently on the market are nominally uh nominally, if at all adhesive. And their point is that transglutaminase plus gelatin is adhesive to your tissue. Uh Nasash making a nasty face here. Good examples of such devices are quick clot ACS uh and hemecon Bandage. The two hemostatic devices currently supplied to members of the U.S.
+
+[17:40] Armed Forces. The mineral zeolite crystals and quick clot uh sponge cause adsorb um cause uh adsorption of the water molecules in the blood that's concentrated in the clotting clotting factors and accelerating blood clotting. So they're literally putting like an absorptive powder on you that just like pfft like strokes it up and causes quick clotting, hence the name quick clot. Uh the chitosan mixture that makes up heme con has a positive charge that attracts red blood red blood cells, which have a negative charge. The red blood cells are drawn into the dressing, forming a seal over the wound and stabilizing the wound surface.
+
+[18:10] So these guys at Life Bond uh have anticipated your question and are now making transglutaminase-based wound dressings, and we'll see how that goes in the future. But do not put Activa RM in your cut before you slap a band-aid on it, or if you do it, do not say that I recommended that you do so. Let's go to our first commercial break. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a feta complet for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in.
+
+[19:16] For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com. Are we back? We're back. And welcome back. I never know because the Jack will always throw in like I'll sit there and I'll gear into it.
+
+[19:34] Welcome back! And then like it's like oh. Maybe I should bring it back every time that I'd say, and we're back. And then you can come in, you know? No, that's true.
+
+[19:45] Hey, I want to give a quick shout out to Ben Lambert, though, who just became a member mere seconds ago. Cooking issues listener. So thanks, Ben. Thanks. And you know what I was looking up?
+
+[19:54] Probably no relation. In fact, I'm sure no relation. Lamp l uh Lambert uh radiating bodies. No relation, I'm sure. You were just looking that up?
+
+[20:02] Well, yeah, in fact, I can talk about it a little bit now. Nice. Uh so um as those of you that listen to the show might be aware we're working on a new product uh that it's gonna have the name some form of sally something probably. And it forms as a little handheld salamander, right? And um and what it does is it diffuses and uh converts the uh flame from a torch into a into uh mostly IR uh you know infrared heat.
+
+[20:29] It makes it very, very even and the advantage of this unit is that it's on almost instantly because the screens that make up the unit uh have a very, very low thermal mass, so it it turns you know cherry red almost instantly, like a couple seconds, right, Stas? Anyway. Um but when I had the initial people testing it, uh they were having some sort they were having problems um using it because they weren't thinking about and um we're gonna do a video about this. Uh maybe I'll be even post it on the blog eventually. Uh we're shooting some tomorrow.
+
+[21:01] The problem with it is is that people are holding the unit as far away from the food as they would hold a normal salamander, right? And the fact of the matter is is that you have to hold it much closer than you would a normal salamander. And the reason go the reason for it, you know, is that most people aren't thinking about how heat from something like a salamander actually works. So for those of you that don't have a salamander or don't even know what the heck I'm talking about, a salamander is uh a form of a commercial uh broiler, right? And the way that most commercial salamanders work is they have a series of bricks that have a bunch of holes in them.
+
+[21:39] Gas comes out of the bricks and uh it through the little holes, ignites, and forms uh an infrared like an infrared uh kind of plane of heat uh right there uh where the bricks are. And the thing is very long, usually like on the order of three feet is typical for a salamander. And I'd say the bricks are maybe six and a half, seven inches across, okay? So you have a strip of bricks that's uh about three feet long and seven inches across. Um now um the difference in now, so take that, right?
+
+[22:10] And so a long time ago, back in the days when uh Michael Batterberry was still with us, and I was writing a lot for food arts that you know, for those of you that don't know who Michael Batterberry is, go and look them up right away. He and Arianne were like you know, huge influences on my life in terms of my uh career and a lot of other people who are in the food business, you know, they they've done a lot of good that they don't bother taking the credit for. Anyway, so back when I was writing for food arts, I had to write an article on what's called deck broilers. And uh deck broilers are things that actually most even restaurants don't have, but if you have a steakhouse or a large hotel, you're apt to have a deck broiler. And what a deck broiler is is imagine a bunch of salamanders like where the where the bricks are stacked next to each other to form instead of just a strip of these bricks, a square, okay?
+
+[22:53] And uh it always amazed me that uh even though each individual brick in a deck broiler has the same amount of energy that's leaving it per square centimeter, deck broilers are fantastically more powerful than salamanders in normal uh operations, and also very, very even. And that's why they're really good for things like steaks, right? Um why? The question is why. And the answer, and also one of the problems with salamanders is that salamanders have what is called a sweet spot, and it's a line that runs all the way um uh you know across the center of the long axis of the salamander.
+
+[23:29] And the issue is is that a deck broiler is acting pretty much like an infinite plane of heat. That's right. This is where we're going back to Lambert. I'm not gonna get into the nitty-gritty of it. But uh, in an infinite plane uh of radiating heat, right, of IR of IR radiation, right?
+
+[23:45] If you have an infinite plane or something that's a pro approximating it such that such that basically the food can't see that literally see the edge of the of the heater, then the amount of energy that the food is receiving from the heater is roughly independent of how far away it is. So everything heats evenly, and the amount of heating is just do is just uh uh a function of the output per square centimeter of the heater. Does this make any sense at all? Yes. Okay, good.
+
+[24:13] So uh deck broilers act like an infinite plane, and then anything within it is gonna get heated evenly, and it doesn't matter within a couple you know, centimeters how far away it is, right? And this goes back to you know, you my son Dax is obsessed with this archer named Byron Ferguson, who you know, Byron Ferguson, his motto is if I can see it, I can hit it. And Byron Ferguson can take an arrow, pull it off of his back, and he can shoot an aspirin out of the sky. Literally, his wife throws aspirin into the air, and Byron Ferguson pulls an arrow off of his back and shoots it uh like as it's leaving his wife's hand practically, and his wife is so used to this that she doesn't even flinch. Imagine, like, imagine what Jen would do if I was going to try to shoot an aspirin out of him.
+
+[24:52] She should rightfully run for the hills. You know what I mean? Like this is not some sort of William Burroughs situation with his wife with the apple on his head. Like this guy's real deal. So check him out, Byron Fergus.
+
+[25:01] Anyway, if I if I can see it, I can hit it. And the same thing goes true with uh heaters. If you can see it, you can hit it. So under a salamander, when a piece of meat is sitting there, it can see the heater and the heater can see the food all the way along the long line of it. So that section's working like an infinite plane, right?
+
+[25:19] But the sides on the edge that are relatively narrow, it doesn't act like it. And the more the further you get away from something, and the less it looks like an infinite uh plate, the more it acts like a point source. And a point source, the amount of energy you receive, uh like goes down as the square of the distance from it. So anyway, long story short, the small salamander only acts like an infinite plane when you're very, very close to the object, right? Uh and in so the long story short, you have to hold this object extremely close to the food when you're cooking it.
+
+[25:48] So that's why I was thinking about it. And that's a kind of a long digression based on uh Lambert. But you should also think about this when you're when you're cooking in general, and think about how large the heat source is compared to the food you're cooking. And the larger the heat source is compared to the food you're cooking, and the closer your uh food is to it, the more uh even you'll be if you can withstand that level of heating. Does that make any sense at all?
+
+[26:09] Yes. He's like, I don't care. I really just I really don't care. Right? Okay.
+
+[26:13] Uh so let's go to that second question on calcium. Uh we have uh this is a nice one. Uh Chris writes in, hey Dave, Nastasa, Jack Joe, and Indy Jesus. I apparent we have an awesome picture from uh Indie Jesus' Facebook, but we but apparently Jack says that he wouldn't enjoy being referred to as Indy Jesus. I I don't think so.
+
+[26:32] Even though it's with like honestly with all love. I I you know I don't know. I'll have to ask him. Like to tell him it's with love. It is with love.
+
+[26:41] And in this picture we have from Facebook, it's like Indy Cowboy Jesus. He said he doesn't even like being called a hippie, so I can't really imagine how Indy Jesus would affect him. You calling Jesus a hippie? Anyway. Yeah, no one no one in the no one in the studio wants to go there.
+
+[26:59] Okay. Uh I have a pectin related question. My goal is to firm up small fruits like blueberries so they won't rupture and bleed out in cakes, muffins, pancakes, etc. I know you've mentioned this technique in the past, but couldn't find it in the backlog and would love uh the appropriate ratio to use in the future. Um thanks so much for the great show.
+
+[27:15] Definitely uh highlight of the week and backlog is great for Sunday morning of kitchen cleaning. Without question, my food has made a jump in quality thanks to the radio show and blog. And I now regularly use enzymes, gums, and prehydrated starches in addition to my circulator regularly with delicious and consistent results. Chris, uh I like that. That's what I like to hear.
+
+[27:31] I like to hear that. Okay. So uh the enzyme in question is uh pectin methylesterase. Uh and it's the opposite of of you know kind of the SPL, which breaks things down. It uh cross links pectins in the presence of calcium.
+
+[27:45] Now, most fruits have um naturally occurring pectin methylesterase uh and will crosslink somewhat if you have calcium, especially in um in the presence of heat. When the cells start to break a little bit, it'll release some of the pectin methylesterase. And if there's calcium present, you'll uh increasingly crosslink uh your product. That's why just a little bit of calcium in canned tomatoes, uh, you they usually use calcium chloride, unfortunately, causes those canned tomatoes to be really stiff, and that's why those tanned tomatoes, when you use them in sauce, never fully break down, right? You've noticed that, right, Stas?
+
+[28:16] Yes. Yes. So um Novozymes, uh, who makes the um who makes the uh you know, pectanex ultra SPL that we use and everything, also makes something called Novo Shape. Uh and you can use it uh with calcium, and I forget what the calcium ratios is, but you can use it the same way you use um um um pectinex ultra spl in the sense you can use about a uh you know one or two grams per liter of liquid uh that you're treating with. I would add a couple percent of calcium to the water and then let it soak.
+
+[28:49] Uh and I've done that to raspberries, I've vacuum injected uh and then boiled them, and the raspberry stayed whole in boiling liquid. Now you want to make sure that uh you know that the liquid's roughly isotonic with the raspberries, so you gotta add some sugar, otherwise it'll just blast apart uh, you know, because of osmotic pressure. But um they I was astounded how well those suckers held together. Were you there for that, Testas? Remember that?
+
+[29:14] It's crazy, right? Uh and I wanted to do that with brandied cherries, but uh, you know, there's a problem with the cherry harvest, or there was a problem with people ordering cherries for me this and I can't taste them anyway, so my I wasn't really that juiced up because I, you know, I couldn't I can't taste cherries because I'm allergic to them. Anyway, uh so that would work. You might try, and I don't know whether or not uh Modernist Pantry ever started carrying uh Novo shape, but they could. Oh, the only thing that's uh you know between them and that is uh the investment in a 25 liter pail that they can then break up and uh we never had enough application to buy our own 25 liter pail.
+
+[29:46] We buy twenty-five liter pails of uh SPL all the time. Like we're we're actually basically an industrial user of SPL now. That's what I'm saying, Mono's pantry. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Chris Modern's pantry.
+
+[29:56] Uh he could probably buy a pail of it um if he wanted to. Uh, and then you just add calcium, add uh Novo shape, and let it soak, and you're good. So uh I would do that. I would also just try adding straight calcium and letting it soak for a while on the calcium, and then uh you can bring the heat up and see whether or not it um has preserved them or not. But anyway, that's what I would that's what I would do.
+
+[30:19] Yeah? Yeah. No? You know how they make the fake blueberries in the real life? I think I said this before, yeah.
+
+[30:24] Yeah, alginate. They actually what they do is they take blueberry juice and they make uh they in they uh put a uh sphere of blueberry juice inside of an alginate shell of blueberry juice, and that sucker uh lasts forever. It's not real, but it lasts forever, and that's in fact that was one of the like that was one of the original things well before anyone, like you know, Ferron was using alginate balls. Alginate balls were being used in industrial applications for things like flake fake blueberries, things like fake onion rings, uh things like that. Uh anyw, so uh there you have it.
+
+[30:57] Um is it good? Uh-huh. Yeah, she's like, I don't care. I really don't care. I just want the pizza.
+
+[31:03] I just want the pizza. Stas like, why do we do this show? Free pizza. You know how much easier it would be for me to just buy you a pizza every week? No?
+
+[31:11] Yeah. I mean, whatever, I can afford the pizza. I'll say. Okay. Pete writes in, dear Dave et al.
+
+[31:17] Over the years, my family and I have typically procured our hams from local country growers who let their pigs forage in the woods. I've often read that there's not been a case of trichonosis uh in the U.S. from pork since the 1950s, but given the source of meat, I've always cooked my country hams to an internal temperature of 137 degrees Fahrenheit. I know from talking to growers and hunters that forest-fed and feral pigs. That's a great word, feral pig.
+
+[31:41] Right? Yeah. Feral pig. Nastas actually that's like I'm surprised. She likes that word.
+
+[31:46] I could tell. I can tell by a look on her face. Uh fearal pig, do you know why? Do you know why people? Because she loves cats, and as like as soon as you say the word fearal, the word cat pops into her head, and she doesn't even think about the word pig.
+
+[31:58] The pig just leaves and it's a fearal cat, which is like inherent love. My favorite animal. Feral cats or just cats in general? Fear old cats. Nastasha goes to me the other day.
+
+[32:06] She goes, Can we get a cat at the lab? I'm like, we already you we already have you. You sit around and like, you know, bat things around and whatever, anyway. Attack your ankles. God, I hope not.
+
+[32:17] That would be that'll be an all-time low. Uh where were we? Feral pigs. Oh, yes. Uh okay.
+
+[32:23] I know from talking to growers and hunters that forest-fed and fural pigs will consume any carrion they come across. This is true. In fact, uh, I read an article in the 1800s in West Virginia where they imported a bunch of pigs to a particular area of West Virginia that was infested with snakes, and the snakes just I mean, uh, and the pigs just wiped the snakes out. Just wiped them out, ate every snake that was there. And uh reports of the hams made from those uh snake-fed pigs was that they were quite good.
+
+[32:50] Whoa. Yeah, yeah. You can go you can go look it up. I did I looked that up you know many, many years ago uh when I was researching country hams for the uh first uh museum of food uh pig versus snake. You wouldn't guess, huh?
+
+[33:01] Well, pigs are some harsh suckers, man. This is why, like, you know, like if you ever watch Robert Mitchram's last movie when he's like a boar hunter. I mean, like wild pigs are not animals that you trifle with. You know what I mean? Don't go messing with the wild pigs.
+
+[33:12] Anyway. Uh we'll consume any carrion they come across. Uh, years ago, I read a study that indicated salt curing and at least nine weeks of hanging was sufficient to store uh destroy any uh Triconella larvae. Your uh recent suggestion that one does not have to cook your country hams got me wondering about this again. Is this still the thinking?
+
+[33:28] Have there been any recent revelations about the resiliency of trichonella cysts? Love the show, Landon. P.S. I have been freezing my pork for Italian style curing of whole muscles to ensure that I end up with trichonella free meat. I would love to not have to do that.
+
+[33:41] Okay. Uh here's the deal. Uh I look go to you want to go to Aphis, which is the animal plant health inspection services uh section on uh pork. And by the way, for those of you that don't know what trichinosis is, uh these little worms that uh you can get from consuming um undercooked meats. Um, you know, pig used to be the big one you got from pig, but also bear, uh any th any kind of wild meat, right?
+
+[34:09] And you get them in, and then it's the disease is measured in number of worms per cubic centimeter muscle mass, and it causes huge havoc because it they they invade your muscles, and it's just it's a nightmare. And plus, it's just it's gross, right? Yeah. Does anything gross you out more than that? Is that one of the grosser ones for you?
+
+[34:25] Where your muscles are just invaded by these worms. Awesome, right? Anyway, uh, so uh that's the problem with pork, and so for a long time that's why they had uh you had you cook the hell out of your meat. Okay. Here is what uh we have to say.
+
+[34:38] Uh here's what the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services has to say on their website about uh trichinella and pork. Um trichinosis has a long-standing association with pork products, not only in the US but around the world. The concept which many people have uh about the need to cook pork thoroughly is based on the risk of becoming infected with this parasite. This concern is well founded in history. At the beginning of the 20th century, conservative estimates showed a 2.5 infection uh percent infection rate in U.S.
+
+[35:05] pigs. Even more alarming were the postmortem surveys conducted in the 1930s. A National Institute of Health report published in nineteen forty-three found that sixteen point two per cent of the US population of pigs was infected. One out of every six. Uh, this type of information led us to considerable publicities about the danger of eating pork.
+
+[35:23] The historical problem of trick of uh uh trichinite infection in pigs is responsible for strict federal controls of methods used to prepare ready to eat pork products in the US and expensive carcass inspection requirements in Europe. These regulations are still in effect in uh uh the Code of Federal Regulations for Processed Products and then the directives of the European Union. Wait, wait actually, hold on a second. It didn't say out of every pigs, it says sixteen point two per cent of the US population of people had some form of trichinose uh trickinella in their in their system. That's gross.
+
+[35:51] Yes. It's gross. I don't even believe that. I don't believe that. I don't believe that.
+
+[35:56] Nine for man. Okay, okay. Despite the historical problems of uh trichonine and its association with the pork industry, major changes have occurred in the last fifty years. Human cases of uh instead of saying trichinosis, they write trichinellosos tri trichinellosis. Trick I'm just gonna call it trichinosis, crap on these guys.
+
+[36:14] Reported through the centers for disease control, declined from about five hundred a year in the nineteen forties to fewer than fifty a year over the last decade. Further, many of these cases result from non pork sources such as bear and other game meats. A major decline has also occurred in the prevalence of this parasite in pigs. While prevalence has declined considerably in the US pigs, the lowest prevalence rates in domestic pigs are found in c uh countries where meat inspection programs have been in place for many years, including the EU, notably Denmark and Netherlands. These countries consider themselves essentially free of uh trichinosis.
+
+[36:44] The dramatic declines in trichonine and pigs reflect changes in the industry. Historically, uh infection in pigs was associated with feeding of raw garbage. Major trends were uh major inroads were made into uh trichinosis infection with the advent of garbage cooking laws passed uh between nineteen fifty three and 1954 and the hog cholera eradication program of 1962. Of equal importance has been the movement to high levels of biosecurity and hygienes under which most pigs are now raised. Still, opportunities for exposure to pigs exist, and some precautions should be implemented.
+
+[37:14] Uh so anyway, so uh that's the thing on pigs and what it's dealing with. But your stuff uh does not uh adhere to this because it's from uh wild pigs. So for a long time they were considering getting uh rid of it. Now, uh the good news is is as you say, you can kill pigs at uh kill pigs, you can kill pigs. You can kill trichinosis by cooking meat uh for uh a mere 47 minutes at the core at only 52 degrees uh Celsius, or six minutes at 55.
+
+[37:41] Also, as you note, deep freezing uh causes the trichinosis um uh uh worms to be killed and the cyst to be killed, but you don't want to have to do that. Now, unfortunately, uh there is no single set of uh, you know, you do this salt, do that, that can guarantee that they will safely admit guarantees trichinosis. However, all you need to do for curing your own stuff to figure out whether it's safe to eat without cooking is go to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Code of Federal Regulations. Search on this one, ready?
+
+[38:12] Title IX, Chapter 3, Paragraph 318.10. And that one, that paragraph, I read it this morning, but it's too complicated to go to, lists all the specific curing mechanisms that you can use to uh destroy uh trichinosis in pork without having to go through a freeze step or a cook step. And they all are combinations of salt levels per pound of meat, a specific contact time of uh salt on meat in days per, I think days per whatever, I forget what it is, and then holding in the drying room for a certain number of days with a certain amount of equalization to assure trichinosis death. So if you follow those rules precisely, or or greater, those rules are greater. In other words, that amount of salt or more, that amount of time drying or more, that amount of water loss or more, then you're guaranteed uh a safe product from a trichinosis standpoint.
+
+[39:09] But I if I were you, if you're dealing with feral hogs, don't fool around with this one. Make sure that you conform to uh the specifications that are laid out in Title IX, Chapter 3, uh subpart 3, 1810. But uh is my impression that you when you're doing country hand specifically, you do not need to uh freeze as long as you follow their rules. But please don't just take my word for it, read that chapter in its uh entirety. I want some wild pig meat.
+
+[39:37] You know, the only time I've ever had uh uh you know so interesting thing about pigs, and you say that they were uh eating, I think there's you said they were I can't go back and find it, but eating stuff that they eat off the forest. Only one time have I had a USDA slaughtered pig that was eating uh fallen nut meat. It's called mast, right? So when stuff falls off the trees, which happens in the fall, uh pigs eat eat it, right? And so if you happen to be in a place where you get a lot of nuts, like hickory nuts and things like that, the pigs take in a lot of um a lot of these kind of nut fats, and their uh fat composition after a number of weeks of eating this tends to conform more to uh these um these nut fat ratios, and the fat gets softer, right?
+
+[40:20] Which is bad actually for certain sausages where you want the back fat to be very hard, but amazing for things like ham. And the closest American ham that I've had to the ibirico fed, uh the the ibirico, the biota fed uh ibirico, which they feed off of uh you know chestnuts falling from the trees in the Dehesa in uh Spain. Uh and and so the the amazing thing about that isn't just that those guys in Spain are good at curing about curing their meats, is that the actual composition of the fats is altered by the by the chestnuts that they're eating, and it just has this amazing acorns rather. Chestnuts. What the heck's rolling my brain today?
+
+[40:55] I don't know. What the hell is wrong with me? 42 what? Years old. Oh yeah.
+
+[40:59] Did I say chestnuts? What the hell? I meant acorns. Hell's wrong with me. Actually, I need to have my head examined.
+
+[41:06] Anyway, uh, although chestnuts would be delicious. And chestnut fed hogs are also delicious. Uh but uh anyway, if they're eating nuts, uh they get this kind of soft and amazing uh fat. And I had one from Pennsylvania, uh Pennsylvania, Tennessee. What the hell's wrong with me?
+
+[41:20] Where the pigs have been feeding, they were Tamworth hogs, and they've been feeding on uh these hickory nuts that were falling off the trees, and it was from a fat composition standpoint, probably the most amazing um American country ham I've ever had. So I don't know, take that for what it is. I'm sure that your hams are delicious if you're making it that way. Pierre? Okay.
+
+[41:37] Uh Dalip Rao writes in. His uh his Twitter handle is at Leapers 500. There's 499 other leapers out there. What is a leaper? I don't know.
+
+[41:47] Do you know what a leaper is? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Uh okay, he's going to Coachella, which is a three-day concert, and he's camping with a gas stove for three days and trying to find a uh trying to figure out food and drinks.
+
+[41:58] Here's what I would do. Uh so the issue is if you were to use normal ice cubes, right, you'd get a huge amount of if to preserve your food. So I'm assuming you have big coolers and you don't want to have to plug anything in. Get giant ice cubes. When I'm saying giant, I don't mean small.
+
+[42:14] I mean giant. I'm talking big. I'm saying like get a c a bunch of coolers and get ice cubes that are like a foot by a foot blocks. The larger the ice cube, the larger the mass, right, per surface area. And your melt rate is going to be determined in part by how good your igloo cooler is, but also by how much surface area is available for the uh melt water to occur.
+
+[42:35] If you have a giant block like that, it should have no problem lasting three days uh in an adequate cooler, and then you could put your food next to it, and then you could chip off pieces of it for making your drinks, right? Especially if you just practice a little bit because it'll be tempered because it'll be at zero the whole time. So you'll be able to like chip amazing pieces off of it. So you could do shaking drinks, but you could also make amazing stir drinks uh with it because your ice is because you're gonna have to buy this ice from someone, right? So you go you go to uh uh whoever is like your local ice sculpture person, you buy a 200 pound block or and you have them saw it into larger into small enough blocks that will fit into the coolers that you have, and then pack again, pack uh the you know, put it on a grate so that it's sitting off the bottom so it's not sitting its own water, so you can drain off the extra water when you need it, and then have the food sitting next to it.
+
+[43:21] By the way, there's also that that's the way that uh that's the way that in Japan the hardcore sushi chefs store their fish. They they buy big coolers, big fridges, they unplug them because they don't want the air circulating on the inside, and then they put giant blocks of ice in to keep their fish exactly where they want them. So you should be able to keep your food uh good. Unfortunately for you, we don't have my you know, you don't have my uh my torch attachment yet because that would be sick. That would be sick out there because you could you could steak cook that way.
+
+[43:47] It's a little bit of a pain in the butt to cook a steak from zero to zero to a hundred that way, but it's uh it's pretty damn good. Um but you say you have uh I think did you say he had a circulator beforehand? Uh you could pre-bag the meats, and as long as you can ensure that your ice stays good, you could do a pre-cook on a lot of your stuff, and then flash grill all of your stuff, not use that much charcoal if you're allowed to have charcoal. You're allowed to have you been to Colachella? I don't think so.
+
+[44:09] Is that where they had the two-pack Shakur? They had the they had the holographic two-pack. Yes, that was it. That was how how Holly Ram Tupac was there last year. Yeah.
+
+[44:19] So who are they gonna hologram this year? Huh, I don't know. I mean, it would be kind of poor form to do biggie, right? But well, I don't know. I mean, you know, it'd be a nice holograph hologram rather.
+
+[44:31] Okay. So yeah, but it says you have a gas stove, so you should be go. If you have a circulator, I would circ a bunch of stuff in bags, put it in bags so they don't get contaminated by the fact that they're all sitting together with your giant ice, and then just bring straight booze, do a lot of delicious stir drinks, and then occasionally some shaking drinks. Limes are fine sitting on their own, so you don't even need to refrigerate those suckers. Bring as much stuff as you can that doesn't need to be refrigerated and then go from there.
+
+[44:52] Your melt water is also good, so you can use your melt water for cooking things like pasta, because if Nastasha goes with you, she needs to have pasta. She thinks must. Must. Must. Right?
+
+[45:02] Yeah. Okay. Uh Michael Natkin. Uh what's it called? James Beard Award nominated Michael Natkin, friend of the show.
+
+[45:10] Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and uh, as everyone knows, Nastasha loves your book. Anyway, uh at cooking issues, have you ever written down your carbonation rig?
+
+[45:18] I need to build one for at Chef Steps. Uh no. So um have I ever written it down? I've described a couple times, but I've never written it down. Okay.
+
+[45:26] Mark Powers. I buy all of my carbonation stuff from an outfit called Mark Powers in uh Guntersville, Alabama. And uh I love those guys because they're the cheapest people anywhere. Like they're so cheap that it's like they're they they define cheap. So what you do is is you call those guys up, you order a 25 a 20 pound it, or if you don't want to order a 20 pound, if you want a smaller rig, a five-pound CO2 tank.
+
+[45:52] It will arrive empty, okay? Uh they ship the kind of nice aluminum ones. You need to get along with that a um what's called a uh the their high pressure regulator. Now I don't really like those regulators for commercial use. The ones that they sell, they sell tapright brand.
+
+[46:08] Uh and the tapright brand regulators that they sell tend to get broken very easily in service if people are rough with them or knock them about uh and then they start having problems. Not safety problems, but they start having problems. Uh so if you can afford a nicer regulator, you could go with like a Smith or something like that, or Victor or nicer regulator. The taprights work fine, and they are by far and away the cheapest ones you can get. I don't think that uh Mark Powers sells them, but you can buy cages for the tapright regulators, and the cages prevent uh you from damaging the the um the gauges and the regulator by banging it about.
+
+[46:43] I would definitely invest in those if you can get them from them. Then all you need are the hose barbs uh and the hose, and you go directly into um what's called a ball lock or universal uh either universal Pepsi or ball lock fittings, and they're different from Coke or pin lock fittings. And the ball lock fittings from Pepsi, you want the the uh the ones that are gray, right? They're either gray or black, and one's for uh product and one's for gas. I think the gray is gas, although I can never remember, but the this system uses the gray.
+
+[47:13] And uh, and they became kind of the de facto thing that home brewers have used when they're using the old five-gallon Cornelius kegs, which is how they used to make soda for brewing, and I used to do it back in the day. Everyone does it. So it's the de facto homebrew technology of these ball locks, and they're almost free. They're like $2 for a connection. So you buy uh you buy those, you buy the hose.
+
+[47:35] I usually use quarter or three eighths ID uh reinforced hose. I forget the name of the brand that they stock at at uh in uh those guys' stock, but it's like called like ho like hose master or something like that. Uh and they'll ship you all the stuff by far and away the cheapest possible way to do it. Then you go on any homebrew site and you get the liquid bread carbonator caps, uh, and then you're ready to rock and roll. You just need some soda bottles, and that's how we carbonate at the bar.
+
+[48:03] At home, I have an actual McCann carbonator, which you can also get at pretty good rates from uh those guys, and I use I use an addition to what's called a primary regulator, which which takes the tank pressure on the CO2, which is like you know, upwards of 800 pounds or whatever, depends on the temperature, uh, and converts it to first a high pressure, which I take off at usually about a hundred psi, and then I go into a secondary regulator, which I take it off at cocktail carbonation pressure, which is generally about 40 to 42 psi. Advantage here is I can take the high pressure from my hundred pounder, I can drop it into a commercial carbonator. And the reason you need to run those at a hundred uh psi is because those things are carbonating water at room temperature, so you need a much higher gas pressure, but they're awesome. And then I have a water filter so that the water goes in, gets injected in under high pressure, carbonated water, it goes through two circuits of a cold plate, not one, two circuits of a cold plate to chill it down. The only problem with my rig at home is that uh I wasn't able to put an ice maker underneath my counter.
+
+[49:02] So my what instead of uh having an automatic ice maker, I have an eight-year old in the house named Dax, and he takes the ice out of my freezer and daily dumps it into the ice bucket to keep the seltzer cold. Back at the lab at 54 uh in Chinatown, we we have an ice maker that dumps directly on the cold plate, and so there we have our ability to carbonate cocktails and sodas and our ability to have seltzer on tap. Uh a day without seltzer on tap is a day without sunshine. Right? And I think that's it for today, right?
+
+[49:30] Yeah. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[50:00] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Cooking issues! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming here live! What every Tuesday is the second time I've done that to you, sorry.
+
+[1:11] No problem. From Roberta's Pizzeria in Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba Bushwick, Brooklyn! We are not joined with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. She is calling Oh, but we are. Well, no, but not live, not in the studio.
+
+[1:23] She has called in too. 718497218. That's uh 7184972128. And you can too, with all of your cooking related questions. So, Nastasha, uh Jack and Joe are here in the uh in the engineering booth as always.
+
+[1:35] Hey, hey gentlemen. Hello. So uh Nastasha has lost all credibility with uh the cooking issues in the Heritage Radio uh team because we've heard her talk a big game about how much she hates uh springtime weather. No, no. Springtice we're gonna be hello.
+
+[1:49] Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well. Hates the springtime weather, hates springtime people, hates people when they like the springtime weather. And where are you right now, Nastasha? I'm at the beach, but I'm so happy that I'm not in New York because I don't have to see everybody in their flip flops and the hipsters on their bikes and all that stuff.
+
+[2:07] You're at the beach seeing all that. What the hell's the difference? No, there's no hipsters here. Zero hipsters. So uh are you so she is in uh Rhode Island, and are you familiar with the actual full name of Rhode Island, Nastasha?
+
+[2:20] No. Uh well it is the well, it's the smallest state in in our union. Uh however, it has the longest official name. It is the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. Were you aware of that?
+
+[2:34] Whoa, no, I wasn't. Yeah, it's like it's like it wasn't enough just to be the smallest. They also had to like tag the biggest name. And then they shafted they shafted Delaware. Delaware's like almost.
+
+[2:43] Well, almost the smallest, but we got no sales tax. I think that's kind of what Delaware said, right? Uh because they couldn't change their name to like Delaware of Delaware and the Delaware Delaware plantation, because that would just be copying. Right? Right, yes.
+
+[2:57] So uh is it uh I assume it's nice over there, although you know I would hate it. Yeah, you would hate it. I'm not on it. I'm I'm away from the sand. So yes.
+
+[3:06] Uh for those of you out there um big I like the idea of a beach. I love the beach in the wintertime, but the sun is my mortal enemy. Anyway, uh, okay, we got some questions in from Ryan Santos regarding centrifuge. Hey, Dave and Nastasha, uh customer who recently retired from medical equipment sales, gifted us with an unused centrifuge he had in his storage. It's small and runs fine, but is missing the containers for the inside.
+
+[3:28] Though some research uh through some research, the maximum uh this machine can take is four by fifty milliliter conical tubes. And as you're probably aware, those four small tubes and adapter are not cheap. Four to five hundred dollars in total. Obviously, with the quantity limit, we won't be able to use uh, you know, the qu the amount they can spin it in at one time. Uh we won't be able to use it for any real practical production use because four times fifty milliliters, as you guys can uh do in your head, maybe is two hundred mils, which is a small amount.
+
+[3:56] Um is there any small specialty use that would warrant spending this kind of cash at that quantity? Uh will it hardly yield anything, even just for fun personal use? Well, four to five hundred dollars is a lot to spend on uh the tubes for a 200 um mil machine. Now, if uh I didn't get a chance, it's a thermoscientific IEC centrist CL2. I didn't get a chance to look at the specific specs on that machine.
+
+[4:23] Uh, but let's just say for the sake of uh for sake of argument that it can do, you know, three to four thousand G's uh and it has uh it doesn't have the word like an R anywhere in it. Usually refrigerated center if you just have like a letter R in it somewhere, so it doesn't have a fridge. So you're gonna be spending $500 to be doing 200 mils. Now a 50 mil tube is a lot for th for 250 bucks or 200 bucks or whatever, you can go on Amazon.com and buy one that does uh that does a hundred mils at a time, half that for like half the price. But those small tubes that it that it uses, the small one, what's the one that we use, Stas?
+
+[4:55] What's the name of it again? You have one too. Do you remember? Oh, uh yeah. Uh I'll have to look it up.
+
+[5:00] It's like champion something, right? It's like champion something. Anyway, look it up. Um, that one's only a couple hundred bucks uh and it's new and you can almost like get rid of it when it's done. 200 mils is not going to be enough for large production runs.
+
+[5:14] I would see if you can get it cheaper. If you actually have the the uh metal tubes and you're just looking for the bottles, then you know you can get away with cheaper not using it all. But I personally would be hesitant to invest $500 uh in something that can do 200 mils if you have the space to get a larger size one because you know for a thousand dollars you can get a really good condition uh three-liter unit, uh you know, like a thousand to twelve hundred dollars. So I you know I would be hesitant, but on the other hand, if all you have is five hundred dollars and you want to get into centrifuges, is the kind of thing where you know, if you don't have a centrifuge yet and you want to take the plunge, then you know anything you can do to get you into the centrifuge business is going to uh eventually be good for you because I've never had someone who's gotten a centerfuge. It's like there's a couple things like that.
+
+[6:00] It's like the vita prep, it's like an immersion circulator. No one's ever like, damn, I didn't use that. That sucked. You know what I mean? It doesn't happen.
+
+[6:07] There are other pieces of equipment where I can see a little buyer's remorse when you're when you're done with it. But if you're buying a centrifuge for commercial use in a restaurant or at a bar, uh it will pay for itself as so long as you um use it right and and you know uh use it for menu items where it's gonna save you big money on yield on your expensive items. Uh it's gonna make money back. So if it takes four hundred dollars to get you into the into the centrifuge uh thing so that you can then eventually go buy your three-liter, then I think in the end you win. What do you think, Stuz?
+
+[6:42] Yeah, I think that's good. And it is called the champion E33 bench top centrifuge on Amazon. We gotta get uh we gotta get uh Buju uh Buju Banton to rep that singing like uh champion, walk like a champion for that centrifuge. You think we can put those two guys together? They're down in Georgia or Florida somewhere, and I think when he's in the U.S., he's down there somewhere.
+
+[7:00] Well, but I'm saying I think that's where he got arrested down there, so maybe they can arrange something. Does anyone know is Bootchu Banton still in jail? Were those cocaine charges trumped up? Does anyone know? Does anyone even know who I'm talking about?
+
+[7:11] I'm gonna Google it. Alright, very good. Uh okay, so there you have it. Now, uh folk, by the way, for those of you uh out there, uh, we decided for the torch to go with the name Sears All because uh Nastasha, does it sear some things? No.
+
+[7:28] Most things? No. So if you have anything, choose anything. If you have that, will it sear that? Uh yes.
+
+[7:35] So it's pretty much a Sears All. Yes. Sears all. Yeah. All right.
+
+[7:40] That's the name. Yeah, not Searsum. That would be a terrible name. Searsum would be like the worst name in the world. But Sears All, that's a strong name.
+
+[7:46] However, uh uh Nastasha still has a soft spot for uh excuse me for uh all searing eyes, so she says it under her breath all the time. Yes. She just walks around mumbling it. She you know, i in uh in you know 30 years, she's gonna be that she's gonna be that lady wandering around the Lower East Side mumbling or Hell's Kitchen mumbling Oh Searing, I'll Searing Eye, I'll Searing Eye. That's gonna be her.
+
+[8:07] And I still refer to it as the as the Sally Sears All because I like the word Sally, but you know, there you have it. So uh that's the name. Uh and uh we shot some videos, so look for some video up on the blog soon showing uh techniques on on how to use it and kind of what it's good for. Uh now, Ken Ingber, longtime listener, uh supporter of MoFed, uh I don't know if he's a supporter of the radio uh network or not. I don't know.
+
+[8:31] But a supporter of the Museum of Food and Drink and a long time uh listener. Writes in and is excited about the Sears All, but has these questions. One, what does this product do that an inexpensive, widely available and time tested electric paint stripper will not do? Uh if uh if a lower temperature is key, is it possible that a home cook might be better off with the lower temp on a paint gun? I have used uh the paint gun, and um I think it's it's uh it's eight there's a couple things I don't like about it.
+
+[8:59] One, they're actually not cheap. Like paint stripping guns are like, you know, uh you'd think that they're like 20 bucks, they're not. They're like 80 bucks or or more. And so they're actually uh we we mean they're more than what we hope to sell this unit for. We don't know what we're gonna sell it for because a lot depends on uh how much it costs for insurance and shipping and boxing and all that other stuff.
+
+[9:21] But we're hoping to have it be uh price competitive with those guns. Uh secondly, those suckers uh require a cord, which I detest having a cord running around. They don't heat up as quickly as you'd like. And it's uh kind of hard to judge. I've used them before.
+
+[9:34] They just don't do the same thing. It's just not the same thing. They're just not the same, uh, having having used those things. Now I like those hot air guns for uh for other things. For heat shrink tubing, man, those things cannot be beat.
+
+[9:45] I used to have one. Someone stole it. Have you ever noticed that happens with me? I'm like, I lend something to people, stas, and then they just steal it from me. Yeah.
+
+[9:53] Equipment, techniques. I'm kidding. So the latter makes me the most angry. Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm just messing around with you.
+
+[10:01] That's not uh you're not kidding. You're not kidding. Uh whole whole in jest half in earnest there. Anyway, okay. Uh two.
+
+[10:09] This is uh Ken asking more questions. Would I get the same effect if I held an $8 replacement camping light gas mantle with tongs in front of a torch? I mean, leave aside the bonus thorium on my chicken skin. Well, uh, for those of you that don't know, uh they what they do is they take a uh, I think it's I don't know what the fiber is, but it's a fiber net uh it's a fiber that they uh weave into cloth. This is how they make those really bright uh gas lanterns for camping.
+
+[10:32] They take a uh a cloth, they put some like a very high temp refractory fiber in it, and they dope it with thorium, which is uh, you know, a substance. And then uh when they when they light fire to it, the fabric burns away and the mantle becomes exceedingly fragile, and then the whole sucker incondes like a weasel when you when you light it on fire. And that's how those mantle-based gas lamps work. Now, trick with that is besides the awesome thorium, as you point out, mantle's quite small and exceedingly fragile. Uh, and also like you know, they're they're not uh yeah, it's uh excuse me, wouldn't work the same way.
+
+[11:04] The uh I bike today, which is why you hear the incredible hacking and coughing every once in a while, and I inhale some more of that cement. You know that cement place does? Yeah. It's like you make it all the way here and you're fine, and then like a block from Robert's you inhale like a lung full of cement dust, and then you're hacking and wheezing for the rest of the day. Um anyway, so uh uh I don't think it would work for for that reason.
+
+[11:22] Secondly, uh when you have tongs and you're shooting at something, uh, you know, you tend to lose a lot of heat to backspray, which is why we have the cone. The real trick of the whole uh device here is uh an incredibly low thermal mass such that the sucker heats up very, very quickly, but doing that with a material that maintains its structural integrity and strength at the elevated temperatures that we're talking about. And they're quite hot. The inner screen, the outer screen probably only gets up to like oh, I don't know, like uh like 1300 Fahrenheit or something like that. Uh but the inner screen probably gets up closer to like 1700 Fahrenheit or something like in that range.
+
+[11:57] Uh so it's right at the upper level of even what the metals we're using can do. And in fact, we're still playing with the alloys there, so uh those mantles are extremely fragile. This thing needs to be more kind of bulletproof for kitchen uh use. Yes, does number three. Are you doing anything about stability?
+
+[12:14] A hardware store propane canister is comfortable to hold and has a large capacity, but it's inherently unstable. Don't I know it? Which is why we have a patent pending on a clamp that not only holds uh the propane canister when you're using uh the Searsol, but also holds it uh when you're using a regular torch, which I think is inherently dangerous in any effect, uh in any way. Anyway, okay. Uh hardware store propane canister is uh uh comfortable to hold large capacity, but inherently unstable with a small base and a high center of gravity.
+
+[12:43] The heat of the usual burn somatic nozzle is dangerous, but I suspect that the ignition level temperature dissipates pretty quickly. Adding this uh salamander, the sears all to the top makes the total package tippier and perhaps retains a dangerous temperature level. Uh that is a serious risk in a busy commercial kitchen and a nightmare for consumer use. Uh well, I'll just finish the whole thing and then I'll go into it. But this is like one of the main things that we're addressing.
+
+[13:03] So, I mean, it's good that someone asks and I can talk about here. Okay. So, as to the last point on the danger. I'm of two minds when it comes to Dave's tinkering. The Heath Kit customer, by the way, for those of you that, you know, I don't know, if we have young listeners out there, Heathkit was a company back in the day uh that became well known after World War II for uh supplying uh parts that you could build things like, or kits you could buy things like oscilloscopes.
+
+[13:25] When I was a kid, they sold a robot. They have like, you know, anyway, so like amateur electronics, like what you know, what all the Arduino kids are doing now, like used to be Heath Kit, but you know, anyway, whatever. Okay, uh the Heath Kit customer is amused by what Dave uh by Dave's hacking of say an electric pressure cooker. Uh what could go wrong uh in joking parents? But the lawyer in me is more than a little apprehensive, especially when you post instructions on the back to that's back on the pressure cooker.
+
+[13:49] Although, to be fair to me, I said do not do it. Remember that, Stas? Yeah, that was the first sentence you wrote in that story. I was like, do not do this. It like, you know, you know, do not do this.
+
+[13:59] Uh by the way, that pressure cooker still runs well. I've not had a problem uh with it. Uh so again, don't modify your pressure cooker to get to the actual 15 PSI that God wants it to be at. Uh, even though I highly recommend only cooking with 15 PI si pressure cookers, and it's theoretically possible to take the Queas Nart electric pressure cooker and make it do 15 PSI. I I have to urge you to not actually modify it according to the instructions I post on the blog, right, Sas?
+
+[14:25] Right. Right. Um I have two things. So Bouju Bantan is in jail until 2000 or yeah, 2019. And uh also you have a caller.
+
+[14:37] Oh. Uh all right. Well, let me just finish this question and then I'll take the caller and then I'll answer the question. Okay, great. Poor Booju.
+
+[14:44] Uh what was what was it? Was it cocaine? Yeah, it was cocaine. Yeah. In Florida?
+
+[14:49] I believe so. All right. Uh okay. Um Okay. But the lawyer in me is more than a little apprehensive, especially when you post instructions.
+
+[14:57] The Sears all will probably be considered a consumer product and the manufacturer and seller assume some serious liability, or at least the likelihood of consumer injury lawsuits win or lose. Good luck, and I expect to invest, but just in time, as BAM's Nomi Ku immersion circulator seems to have overcome some design to manufacturing issues and is on the verge of production now, delayed from last December. Uh as I write verge, listen carefully and you will hear the derisive laughter I get from my wife and friends. Wow, is that a slap down on on uh weepop? That is a slap down.
+
+[15:22] On the weepop. Hey, you know, I'm a big fan of the weepop. We pop's chilling in uh in uh where is he in Thailand now? Uh anyway, so I'll get back. I'll answer that question on safety and the Sears all after this caller, caller you're on the air.
+
+[15:35] Uh yeah, Dave. Uh two or three unrelated questions here. Cool. First one on pickling. The reference everything I read about it.
+
+[15:44] I gotta change room so you're not gonna be able to hear me over the cue. Um everything I read on Pickling says that if you hit four point nine on the pH, that that's sort of an intrinsically safe pickle. Okay, you mean regardless of salt content or anything? Well, that's or at least you can if you get to 4.9, you can go with a reasonable salt content. Right, okay.
+
+[16:08] Um I mean, clearly if you put enough salt in it, anything's sets. Oh yeah. Um but uh does anybody make a test strip for that? Oh, for that ex for that explicit number? Yes.
+
+[16:20] Jeez, you know, that's a that's a a good question. Uh you'd think that they would. Uh I mean, but the thing is with the test strips pH meters are really not that uh they're not that expensive anymore. I think you can get one now, like I think you know, you know, are you familiar with XTech? Uh well, I mean, I'm very familiar with Fluke.
+
+[16:41] XTEC is sort of the lower line company. Um, so like is there a you're telling me that um fluke's pH meter or somebody's like that is no longer the price of a decent used car? No, well, no, fluke is. Okay, like that's the thing. Like, so you're gonna pay for you're gonna pay for quality.
+
+[16:58] You know what I mean? So if you're gonna use it, if if you were gonna use something like I know more about multimeters than I know about uh uh pH uh test, you know, pH testers, right? But if if I'm if I'm an engineer and I'm gonna go out on the job site and I know things are gonna get dropped and my buddy who doesn't know how to do anything from a hot rock is gonna take it and is gonna stick the probes on something weird, I'm gonna go with the fluke. Right? Now, if I'm just at home, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, fluke is a well known and trusted brand of test equipment.
+
+[17:27] Uh uh, you know, and they have a characteristic look, and you know a fluke when you look at it across the room, right? Okay, so we're on the same page. Uh now, I used to be the kind of guy that uh would only ever, only ever buy uh quality equipment because I knew that if I didn't buy quality equipment, uh it was going to come back to bite me somehow. That's at some point I would assume that I own something that worked and I would need it right then and it wouldn't work and I'd be let down and it would be worse than having nothing at all. That's just my general experience.
+
+[17:58] However, as I age, uh I realize that sometimes it's okay if you have one application, you know it'll work for it, and you know you can be ginger with it, you're not gonna take it out on a job site, and it gets relatively good reviews, then you can go ahead and get the cheaper one. And so with something like a pH meter, uh, I think you could probably get away with something from XTEC at like less than less than half of uh what you would pay for, you know, the brand you trust. Is that we mean I don't know whether you can believe I don't know whether you can go that same route or not, or like whether it's not in you to buy a piece of equipment that you don't trust. But it at any rate, X Tech is generally adequate for the the once a month I'm going to do this. Yeah, right.
+
+[18:38] And and uh and I I think you know, I I've owned a couple of their products, and I I I try to remember if I ever had a problem with one, or whether I've ever heard that they were unresponsive if the stuff breaks. The problem with pH meters in general, if you've never had one, is that you you need to keep the what goes wrong with them is that the especially the inexpensive ones you use. I don't have the glass tip ones, which is you know the kind that like a lot of people have. I have the ones with the little two like the metal thick thing, and it's and it's uh and shield at the bottom. It actually does a couple different things.
+
+[19:05] It also do TDS uh and uh you know a couple other measurements on it. You have to keep the cap wet at all times. If the if the probe dries out, the probe's shot, and then you have to buy another replacement tip for it. So that's the one caveat. You need to buy the probe and you need to buy uh the buffer solutions.
+
+[19:22] And if you calibrate it right, uh, you know, it's it's a good investment, and you just gotta make sure that you there's a little sponge inside the cap, and you gotta make sure that sponge stays wet so that the probe doesn't dry out and get and get ruined. And I, you know, I don't know of any reasonably priced one where that's not the case, but I've had one for several years and it's it's still working for me. So, you know, take uh again, I wouldn't do it if I was doing it professionally, but it's served me okay. All right, and then the the the specific thing that led me to this question. I'm I make this Vietnamese hot sauce basically.
+
+[19:55] It's one third fish sauce, one third lime juice, one third sugar, and then I just uh mandolin some form of hot pepper in there until there's no more room left. Right. And if you leave it in the fridge for a week or two, it seems to pickle beautifully. Other than buying a pH meter, is there any way to like be relatively sure that's not going to kill somebody? Um Yeah, so it's like one one third lime, you said, and one third.
+
+[20:21] One third lime, one third sugar, one-third fish sauce. The fish sauce is 1,500 milligrams of sodium per tablespoon. Yeah, well, you know that you know the fish sauce isn't gonna go anywhere. Uh lime juice is not gonna support too much growth. Sugar is gonna be reducing the water activity.
+
+[20:40] So the real question is is what's the weight ratio of the product to the um to the pickle. Now, you know, uh I don't know whether the salt level there is sufficient to inhibit anything but lactic acid. Does it get a lactic taste after a while? Are you getting some actual fermentation? Yes, yes.
+
+[20:59] And and like you can you can see the peppers, you know, the peppers go from bright green, it's like they absorb the fish sauce and just get a very subtle different flavor to them. Right, but then it it does it does actually ferment out and you get lactic acid bacteria in there? I think so. And you're f probably fine. I mean like you're you're just jumpstart.
+
+[21:18] You know, by lowering the pH initially, you're then selecting for more for lactic acid bacteria to grow rather than other nasty stuff. So, you know, I think you're I mean, I look again, like I would get the pH meter and test it, but I I wouldn't feel too nervous about it. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna come out and say that's a safe thing 'cause I haven't run the numbers or looked at the system or gone and checked any data on the on the web. But uh I mean I feel I would feel comfortable serving it to my family is put that way. Okay, so that's fair enough.
+
+[21:46] Uh a completely separate question. You were talking the other day about pizza steels. Oh yeah, yeah. You know, I've never used one. Now Chris Young was talking to me about it and they have someone in Massachusetts making it.
+
+[21:59] Uh and I I I'm really interested in buying one, but if I do, I'd like to use it for a few things besides pizza. Sure. Is it thick enough not to warp if it's heated unevenly, or is it um you want to you want to use it on the range? But like I can get my grill up to ridiculous temperatures. Right.
+
+[22:20] If I turn the rotisserie burner on too. So the tissue burner's radiating down from above at the same time the the grills going full up from below and I mean it gets hot in there, like seven hundred and something degrees hot. Right, right. Uh if I can um but I'm I'm worried if I do I'm afraid to do it to a ceramic pizza stone that way, 'cause I know the dang thing will crack. Oh, you you've tried it?
+
+[22:43] No, but I mean just ceramic they're typically not like to be heated unevenly. Yeah, no, I mean that's true. It's a it's a fi it' and it's a fifty fifty dollar experiment I've refrained from doing. Right, right. So I mean now clearly the steel's not going to crack.
+
+[22:55] Do you how do you have any feel for how likely it would be to take a permanent warp? Uh okay. Uh I haven't thought about it. Uh however, I'll I'll say this. Uh you're gonna buy it from the guy in Massachusetts making it with the modernist cuisine label on it?
+
+[23:10] Yes, but th uh that that is my intention costs about 75 bucks. Okay. So uh I don't remember exactly how thick it is, but remember the whole the whole McGill on that sucker is that it's thick enough to store up enough uh thermal energy to put a wallop into your crust, right? Right. So you're you're gonna have some inherent stiffness from just the fact that it's a thicker material.
+
+[23:32] But the other the the other good news is is you're not heating it up to like a cherry red. You're not like putting on uh like an oxyacety flame on it and uh melting it out. It's probably gonna take quite a bit of energy to warp that out as opposed to like you know, a black steel pan, which is incredibly easy to warp on a range, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been there done that.
+
+[23:50] Yeah, and you're probably gonna have a more widespread out heat pattern than you would uh on a range if you're doing it on a grill. But the good news is this. I don't know that guy in Massachusetts and never met him, never spoken to him. However, I have spoken to Chris Young about him when they were starting that project because he was here on the radio show I think a year or so ago talking about it. And the fellow that's doing it is an engineer.
+
+[24:13] And uh my uh, you know, uh and I I'm biased because I got a family full of engineers, but um my my feeling is uh that uh it's probably something that he's tested. Because uh, you know, engineers are like that. You know what I mean? So it's worth calling them and asking them the questions. I would call I would call him personally and ask a question.
+
+[24:33] My i my impression is he's not like some giant conglomerate, he's a human being. But I mean he ha he has a real company that does other stuff, like a bigger company. I believe he's a metal fabricator or something like that, or has some sort of large shop. But the guy who spearheaded that at that company might be the owner or not, is an actual human being. And it works fantastic, and I love it.
+
+[25:03] But basic food safety question. If it's been in 180 degrees, you know, a reasonable size bag been in 180 degrees Fahrenheit for, you know, eight, ten hours. Is it essentially, I mean, canned? I mean, no need to worry about the big ice water bath and yeah, no, it is not uh it is not canned. And yes and no.
+
+[25:26] Here's the deal. So uh the original old school com fee recipes, right, have uh uh a fairly extensive uh salting regimen prior to the comfi process. They also have uh, you know, a classic uh bunch of uh herbs that gets packed into it. Those herbs, time and whatnot, are you know are bacteriostatic uh have some bacteriostatic effect. And um salt is there uh to provide um to provide you know some bacterial protection.
+
+[26:03] So now I don't know of any cases of someone getting what you're worried about is spore forming bacteria here. You're gonna kill all the vegetative stuff, but you're not gonna wipe out the spores. So the question is is the water, and and here's the other problem. When you're when you're doing a traditional comfi, you have first the salt, that gets rid of some moisture and increases the salt level. That's inhibiting bacteria.
+
+[26:23] You have the uh putting of the of the herbs on, that's somewhat inhibiting bacteria, although it's hard to quantify. You then have uh the traditional comfy in an open uh roaster, let's say, or on a pot in a stove, and that sucker is uh is also getting rid of moisture because moisture is evaporating off and can get out. When you're doing it in the bag, most modern confie recipes don't have as much salt, so I can't guarantee there's bacteriostatic. Uh, you're not necessarily using the same herb profile, so can't guarantee bacteriostatic there. And also, you're not evaporating the moisture out of the bag.
+
+[26:57] The moisture stays in the bag, which is why you get a little gelee in the bottom of a bag confie item. Now, I like all that in terms of taste, but I wouldn't trust it for uh I wouldn't trust it for room temperature and for not having uh spores in it. Okay. So I would, you know, if you want to do it that way, you know, you got to get a retort bag, and you can buy retort bags, and then just you know, you could pressure you could pressure of the retort bag, and then those suckers are sterile, they'd be shelf stable at that point. Okay, so all right, so I I need to be caught more caucus on this than on than on the pickle question.
+
+[27:29] I would, yeah. Okay, fair enough. Um, that was my question. Thank you very much. Thank you.
+
+[27:34] Have a good one. You too. All right, Jack, let's go to our first commercial break. I'll come back with some safety issues on the Sears All Cooking Issue. Today's program has been brought to you by S.
+
+[28:31] Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edwards Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty.
+
+[29:01] For more information, visit www.surrifarms.com. Did you know Heritage Radio Network.org is a member supported nonprofit organization. If you like what you're listening to, go to our website and click that donate button. Become a member and get special discounts, invites, VIP treatment, t-shirts, and more. Support us in our mission to bring you the freshest food content in the nation.
+
+[29:26] Glad to see Sam Edwards is supporting the show. You know I like the S. Wallace Edwards ham. Joe, you like that stuff. I do enjoy the Suriano ham.
+
+[29:36] And Dave, you have another caller. I do? Yep. Suriano, S. Wallace Edwards.
+
+[29:40] Great product. I don't like the name. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Aaron Warren calling from uh Edmonton, Alberta. Just had a question for you about uh solar streams.
+
+[29:52] About what? About soda streams? Oh, cool, alright. Okay, so I I purchased uh just a cheap I'll use soda stream online and uh did some research previous to it and noticed that there's a company that uh basically is able to uh provide you with a clip so that you can put uh a CO2 cartridge onto the soda stream without purchasing it or exchanging it directly through them. But upon further reading, I noticed that the CO2 actually isn't food grade, it's uh paintball CO2 or designed for paintball guns.
+
+[30:33] Is that a concern? Well, that's an interesting question. So uh you know, uh if you go to the big restaurant shows, there are companies that only supply CO2 for the beverage industry, right? Um and also if you buy your gases from people like ISI, let's say in the small cartridges, you know, they make a lot about the purity of uh of the gases that go in it. Um I have always and everyone I know purchases CO2 not from paintball suppliers but from uh welding suppliers.
+
+[31:08] Uh including at you know restaurants and you know most of those unless you're getting your gas directly from Coca-Cola or Pepsi or whoever you deal with, you know, Universal Beverage or Coke, whoever you deal with. Um, you know, pretty much we're all using the welding gas and that's it. I've never noticed any taste problems or anything like that. I mean the stuff is, you know, it's it's high purity. I don't know uh I can't I can't say as I've studied it too much, except for I don't ever worry about it.
+
+[31:39] And I've actually filled I have a 40 I have a 40-pound or 50-pound siphon tank and I fill up smaller things, including twenty ounce paintball tanks with it. Fill it myself, you know. Although I I don't recommend filling your own tanks unless you do like a lot of reading on the safety, because if you fill your own tank and you do it wrong, you cause a serious uh it's a serious hazard. Uh an incorrectly filled tank is a serious, serious hazard. So I don't you know, I don't recommend doing it unless you've done a lot of research on it.
+
+[32:07] But yes, I wouldn't worry about it. I think you know, uh the soda stream people have done a great service to the world in that they've brought home carbonated beverages to a large, large number of people, but they are ripping you off for CO2. There is another one. Exactly. And that's yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to go with uh this little mod clip that they have is just so I could basically cheap out a bit more on that without spending the two or three hundred bucks it would cost me to get the you know twenty-pound tank and the regulatory.
+
+[32:34] That's the thing. Twenty pound tank, a twenty-pound tank and a regulator is not that expensive. Everyone buys it, and this is no offense to any homebrew people that are are listening, but those guys are small shops and need to make uh they that they make their profit off, but but they don't sell that many, right? So the prices on like a uh on a tank are are fairly high in a regulator. You know, if you you can get a five pound tank, which is a lot easier to sling if you're going uh if you're doing it in your house and in twenty.
+
+[33:04] And I want to say that a five pound tank is it's way under a hundred bucks. And a regulator is like thirty if you get it from uh from Mark Powers in uh in uh the Guntersville, Alabama. I don't know about Canada. I don't know what the rules are up there. You know, I hesitate buying a used tank just because you gotta make sure when you buy a used I mean you can, I have, but you gotta make sure when you buy a used tank that it's still certified, otherwise you're gonna have to get it certified.
+
+[33:27] Um you know what I mean? But once you get the investment in in once you have that tank, then the CO two is so cheap it's ridiculous. Your price per liter drops to, you know, like a penny. It's ridiculo you know, like a twenty pound CO two tank does like on the order of two hundred gallons of seltzer water. I mean think about that.
+
+[33:49] And then and let's say it's twenty bucks, which I don't even think it's twenty bucks. So that's twenty bucks for two hundred gallons, you can really get more. That's uh well, what is that? That's uh that's ten dollars, that's a dollar for ten gallons. Is that right?
+
+[34:02] Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a dollar for ten gallons, so that's ten cents a gallon, uh that's like like two and a half cents a liter. Think about that.
+
+[34:13] Yeah, yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. Plus you're not gonna run out very often.
+
+[34:17] So no, no, never. Not you know. Once every couple years, probably. I mean, I mean look, once you have it in your house, I go through a lot of so I go through tanks and tanks and tanks, especially, you know, when you first set up your rig, you'll probably have a leaky system and you'll lose your tank a lot faster than you should. But yeah, tank lasts a good long time, even with a family of four that drinks almost exclusively seltzer, it lasts a good long time.
+
+[34:39] So I would definitely go that route. It's gonna save you money in the long run for for for sure. And then later on, okay if you decide to move on to a different system, you already have the tank. You can you can do anything you want. If you want to get a carbonator cap system and to take a T branch off your regulator and then uh do cocktails that way, which is kind of more flexible than doing it in soda stream style, you can.
+
+[35:00] That's only another $15, sixteen dollar investment to your system because you can upgrade it right away, and you're not paying for a preposterous amount for the CO two every time you do it. Everyone tries to make their money on the gas. And for me, that's just not a proposition I enjoy. Okay. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:17] All right, great. Thanks for all the info, Dave. Appreciate it. Love the show. Oh, thanks a lot.
+
+[35:14] No problem. Good luck with it. Okay. So uh back to the safety on Ken Ingbert's question on the Sears all. So the uh I mean, first of all, obviously, we have lawyers looking at it.
+
+[35:31] We have uh insurance companies uh we're we're talking to about getting uh insurance, and like I'm sure a good chunk of the cost of the item to the consumer is going to be our insurance for it. Uh but we're doing a lot of work to make sure that the product itself is uh safe. So the you know, the the initial design of it was um kind of operator ease of use and comfort, right? So the cone is the cone was there originally to stop heat from coming back on your knuckles to make sure that everything worked fine there. Uh the second that then after we got initial usability down, uh we focused uh, you know, a lot of our attention is being focused right now on safety issues.
+
+[36:10] So, you know, the very first thing we said is this thing is too tippy. So we made a clamp, uh clamp that fits on it. Um and the clamp actually is kind of cool because the clamp will fit on uh butane tank, the tall propane tank, uh, and the camping propane tank. It'll also fit on a wine bottle if you want to take it to a picnic. So you're wine, yeah, right?
+
+[36:28] Woo! So your wine bottle doesn't fall over. That's the that's the only thing Nastasha cares about is that it fits on the wine bottle, right, Stas? That's right. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:36] And what's and what's the name of this thing, Dave? It's the JED clamp. Because why? We're stupid. Yeah, we're stupid.
+
+[36:44] But what but no one put some people might not get it? Go get the go get the jet clamp, jet clamp it, jet clamp it. Get it? Get it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:52] Yeah, it's a good one, right? And everyone's like, You're stupid, that's a dumb name. And you're like, guess what? I don't care. I get to name it.
+
+[36:58] You don't, it's the JED clamp. Anyway, so uh Jet Clamp will fit on a propane tank, butane uh tank, wine bottle, you name it. In fact, eventually we want to sell that sucker just for use with regular torches because I've always thought torches were unsafe standing up there on its own. So that's something we addressed. But Dave Chang, especially was like, people aren't always going to put the um put the clamp on.
+
+[37:20] So we're trying to engineer it such that it's safe even without that. First of all, the one that has been on the on our web there, there's if we've modified it since then, there's a safety cage around it. And the safety cage is made of wire so that it doesn't uh retain heat very much, and you can uh you can literally knock it over on the table and it won't catch anything on fire. And it's still hot, not gonna lie, but you can you can hit it after it's been on for a long time and not sustain horrible burns as if it uh like you would if if the naked cone fell on you. Uh and we're still right now, before we one of the reasons we haven't kickstarted yes, we're still working on a bunch of different safety tweaks to make it as safe as we possibly can.
+
+[37:59] Uh, you know, and in addition, of course, it's gonna come with a list of instructions a mile long on what to do and what not to do, but rest assured that uh the safety of the product is um you know, once we came up with the functionality that we liked, the safety of the product is our primary concern. Wouldn't you say that's true, Stas? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
+
+[38:20] Uh uh that was a good that's enough on that, right, Stas? Bueno, bueno? Okay, bueno. Uh Brendan Hodkins writes in from Phoenix, Arizona. I haven't been to Phoenix in a long time.
+
+[38:31] Stas, you ever been to Phoenix? Yes, I have. I don't like it. What? What do you have against Phoenix?
+
+[38:35] What? You don't like it. What is it? No, I think it There's no hipsters there, Stas. What?
+
+[38:41] Who the hell do you like? You don't like hipsters? If I have a new contest, you'll get a free t shirt. If you write in five things Nastasia likes. No one will ever win that.
+
+[38:54] Yeah. Now, like you you'd have that contest done before the end of the show if you're like tweet in five things she hates. Yeah. It'd be over. That's not the point.
+
+[39:03] Yeah, yeah. Five things she likes. So what do you have against Phoenix besides the the awesome Sawaro cactuses and the and the awesome smell of the desert? Uh my grandmother lived there. I do like Sedona.
+
+[39:14] Sedona is beautiful. Have you been there? Whoa. Would you like Sedona? You don't wait.
+
+[39:18] Hold up. You don't like hipsters, but you like weird hippie freaks? No offense, Sedona? I know. I like the landscape.
+
+[39:24] I don't like the weird hippie freak part. No offense, weird hippie freaks. We love you. But uh, yeah, no, uh, Sedona's nice. My uh my father-in-law used to fly into Sedona's airport, and that's a bumpy ride in a Cessna 172, let me tell you.
+
+[39:39] Anyway, uh, I like I like Phoenix. I think it's good stuff. I haven't been out there in a long, long, long time. Probably 13 years. Anyway, uh, I hope they got the pollution problem fixed.
+
+[39:49] You know, when I used to go out there in the in the 90s, they were like the last place on earth you could still use leaded gas. I hope they've changed that. I have no idea. Anyway, uh Brandon says, I discovered your podcast a few weeks ago and have been catching up on the episode since then. I have a few questions.
+
+[40:02] I bought a poly science creative series circulator last week, and I've been using Ziploc bags per Euro low temperature primer. Are there any applications where a vacuum sealer is a must have? For example, would I need to vacuum seal short ribs before I cook them for seventy two hours? Uh no, you don't. Uh however, well, we'll get into it.
+
+[40:21] Uh, would the Vacmaster VP one one two chamber sealer work well enough to also do a quick pickling, or would I need a more expensive chamber sealer for that? So we'll hand let's handle this before we uh before I get on the second question. So here's the deal. You can do, and I say this in the in the, you know, when we used to teach it, um, you know, you can do 90% of what you want to do uh without a vacuum by using Ziploc. However, right?
+
+[40:51] If you seal something in a vacuum bag, so so that's just from a cooking standpoint. Vacuum shines in food preservation, right? So there's two reasons to use uh there, well, there's many. But the but you know, two of the two of the main reasons to use a vacuum machine are one, you can bag things so you can do low temperature cooking, and for me personally, that's the most important thing. Two, uh by removing the oxygen from the bag, you are uh, and also by removing any sort of gas uh content, if you're gonna freeze, let's say something, if you're gonna freeze it, uh by removing uh air and or oxygen, all that stuff, you are preserving the product in a in a better condition for a longer time.
+
+[41:31] Also doing things like preventing freezer burn if you're gonna freeze, etc. etc., preventing crystallization uh because there's no surface from which the water can migrate out and form crystals on the surface. Okay. So for preservation, you need uh vacuum. And the better the vacuum, the happier you're gonna be.
+
+[41:50] I haven't the vacmaster VP112, which is what what you're talking about, is uh I've never used it, but I've looked at it on the web a bunch of times. It is a lot cheaper than the pumps, the the vacuum sealers that I'm used to. And uh what it it amounts, it's a chamber machine, which means that you're not sucking the air out of the bag, you're sucking the air out of a chamber and then sealing the bag. That by far and away is the better system to use than one where you're sucking air out of the bag. I've had nothing but bad luck with the ones where you suck the air out of the bag, with the exception of like 36-inch striped bass, which I can't figure out how to seal any other way.
+
+[42:25] Uh so anyway, so yes, so the chamber is a good good way to go, but the the vacmaster looks like just kind of uh like a food saver on steroids. And by that I mean it doesn't have a commercial quality vacuum pump in it. All of the kind of all of the big kid vacuum machines, the chamber machines, have in them a bush pump, pump made by the Bush Corporation. And those things are monsters. They're they're always, always work.
+
+[42:56] They're awesome, right? They suck a very fast vacuum and there's go down to a very low uh number of millibars. So they're they're just a good piece of equipment all the way around. And all of the major ones that that you find, you know, mini pack, multivac, and cotch, they all use that brand because everyone knows they're the best ones out there for normal use, right? Now, this guy has a piston pump in it, which it has its limitations.
+
+[43:22] It's never going to pump as hard a vacuum as those other things. It's never gonna pump as quickly as those other things. Now, the question is, is it enough? I don't know. You know, when I looked on the web, I looked this morning and I looked at a bunch of reviews online of people that have it.
+
+[43:37] You know, they buy it at Cabela's, which is you know, the you know, the sporting goods store because you know hunters buy it and things like this. And some of the people that have it like it. However, I never saw this. I never saw, hey, you know what? I'm used to working in a kitchen or in a processing plant with you know uh a real vacuum machine, like a mini-pack.
+
+[43:57] And I had this one and it's almost as good. Didn't see that once. Didn't see that once. I did not see one consumer uh or one customer review of that machine that's that um that said that it compared to what I would consider to be you know the the commercial machines that I that I'm used to. And I will also say I spoke to a mini pack rep yesterday, and he said that in one of the places they sell a lot of uh vacuum things in Alaska because they have a lot of fish and they're vacing the fish down for uh you know for sh for freezing and shipping.
+
+[44:30] And he says that literally in their in their uh uh showroom, they have that unit, the vacmaster, sitting next to their unit, so you can make a decision for yourself which way to go. Now, at home, maybe it's enough. I don't really know how high of a vacuum level it can get. If the vacuum pump is no better than a food saver, it's not gonna do as good a job, uh a quick pickles, anywhere near as good a job as a real vacuum machine uh can do, but I don't have any personal experience with it. Uh what do you think, Staz?
+
+[44:58] Good. Yeah, man, I don't want to be snobby about it. You know what I mean? Like I feel like I'm being a jerk because it is literally a third of the price of the next machine up, one third, you know what I mean? So I don't know whether you can get away with it or not.
+
+[45:12] No one's ever sent us one, so I so I can't make a uh an informed judgment. If anyone out there in uh in uh Tweeter land has uh used both uh like a regular commercial machine, like a mini pack, a multivac or a cotch or something similar, and one of those vac masters, please just you know, tweet in and tell us what you think, whether or not it was uh whether or not it would do anything. Okay. Second question. Is there a way to make powdered Dr.
+
+[45:38] Pepper? That's the FCO that's all used, does. Yeah. Wouldn't you put it in uh liquid nitrogen? No, that would just freeze it.
+
+[45:46] That would just freeze it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, second question. Is there a way to make powdered Dr.
+
+[45:44] Pepper? I thought it would make a good addition to spice rubs. If it is possible, what would be the shelf life? Well, the shelf life would probably be non-finite. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:58] If you could do it. Here's the problem. Uh dehydrating things with uh sugar in them can be quite difficult because uh at the more you dehydrate something, kind of the the more the sugar doesn't want to lose that last little bit of water until you crystallize it out. But it's more difficult to crystallize because they're using high fructose corn syrup, etc. etc.
+
+[46:16] Here's what you do. First of all, forget using regular Dr. Pepper, right? Forget it. Just go to you can go, you can buy, I saw it on the Sam's Club website this morning.
+
+[46:25] You can buy uh Dr. Pepper syrup. I couldn't locate the exact bricks, but since uh Dr. Pepper is probably somewhere around 11 bricks, and since it's a five to one syrup uh to soda ratio, that means that you multiply by six to get uh you multiply by six to get the bricks. So it's probably somewhere in the area of 60 to 66 bricks, meaning 66% sugar in the syrup that you get.
+
+[46:51] So for every kilo of that, you only need to remove uh three, you only need to remove uh 300 mils, 333 mils of water. Now, what I would do is you could try boiling some water out, but it's gonna get sludgy, it's gonna heat up fast. Once it heats up, it's gonna start changing the flavor. You could try spreading it thin and putting it in a dehydrator and then trying to get it down to something more brittle and then pulverizing it with the rest of your salt rub so that your salt or your sh your spice rub absorbs some of the extra moisture and it's gonna turn grainy and sandy. Uh you could do that.
+
+[47:26] Uh, but you know, short of that, you're gonna need like something commercial like a spray dryer, or what I would more preferably do is freeze dry, because freeze dried, you could get it down to a powder. It would just be like sugar and it wouldn't have any heat damage. But I don't know anyone that makes it freeze dried. And actually, Stas, did you ever find that person who could do uh contract freeze drying? Yeah, I have a guy.
+
+[47:47] Yeah? In Massachusetts, yeah. I'll tweet it out. Tweet it out. Nastasha on uh uh what's your Twitter there, Hammer BDX?
+
+[47:53] Hammer BDX, yeah. Yeah, Nastasha will Twitter out uh the person who can do contract freeze drying, because maybe they can freeze dry you some Dr. Pepper syrup and then uh you have Dr. Pepper Powder. Uh they made a Dr.
+
+[48:03] Pepper gum. When I say uh I forget who made it, but I I saw that on the web too. They made it. Here's an interesting thing about Dr. Pepper.
+
+[48:09] I looked it up. Uh of course I looked it up. So the the flavorings, did you know Stas does not contain prune juice? What? Dr.
+
+[48:18] Pepper? You know, for years I always thought it was prune. In fact, there's no prune in it or prune flavor. And like everyone. You know what?
+
+[48:25] Well, you just mentioned one thing that I like, so that's a free giveaway for someone today. So is that still count though? Oh, yeah, alright. Ah, fair, fair. So, but but still, like naming four naming four things.
+
+[48:34] We're gonna be waiting for Godot with this thing. So, uh so Dr. Pepper doesn't actually contain prunes. Uh, but that kind of spoils it for me because like I love the whole prune thing. In fact, my favorite, you know how like every soda has like a rip-off brand at the supermarket?
+
+[48:48] Mm-hmm. You know, like whatever. And the one my favorite Dr. Pepper ripoff is uh Dr. Thunder.
+
+[48:54] Presumably because of the effect of the prune on your GI tract. Dr. Thunder. Anyway, uh so point is uh it doesn't contain prune. Here are the here, according to there's a uh you uh there's a a fact, an F A Q.
+
+[49:08] Uh and here you look it up under free new York.net DP fact, standing for Dr. Pepper Fact. Uh and here's what they list. Um they go through a bunch of things. This seems kind of relatively true.
+
+[49:20] Uh vanilla, almond, right? And this is why it's Almoretto and Amaretto and rum is the flaming Dr. Pepper shot. So because it's vanilla, almond, denatured rum, which they probably means like some sort of rum, dealized rum, uh, oil of orange, and uh phosphoric acid and lactic acid and uh also some citric. So really interesting acid blend in there.
+
+[49:42] And so uh those flavors explain why the flaming Dr. Pepper, which is amaretto and uh emaretto and rum lit on fire, why that tastes like a Dr. Pepper's because you've hit, if you put a little orange in it, you've hit pretty much all the the high notes in uh especially if you use an age rum, which is gonna have the vanilla notes from the wood, you've hit almost all the high notes in a Dr. Pepper. That's cool, right, Stas?
+
+[50:08] Yeah, yeah. Really cool. Are you are you a fan of the uh are you a fan of the flaming Dr. Pepper drink? Not really.
+
+[50:16] You prefer the actual Dr. Pepper? I do. Okay. You know it every lunch, every Tuesday.
+
+[50:21] Yes, that's true. So I uh I'm not gonna even eat lunch because like what am I gonna by the way, so the r the reason why Nastash and do the and I do this show is not for you fine listeners out there, although I guess it is. For the pizza. It's for the pizza and the salad. We get a pizza and a salad.
+
+[50:34] That's the that's the that's the pizza. Well, really, that's it. That's the big bucks we make. And getting to talk to Jack and Joe every week. Yeah.
+
+[50:41] Which is like getting two pizzas in a salad, really. And seeing indie Jesus sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. Although he hates us because, you know, you talk smack about him. Jack and I equal one pizza.
+
+[50:53] I thought that was good. You want it, I mean, like you think that's that's fine. That's about it. That's accurate. Yeah.
+
+[50:57] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so like I'm not that guy that's gonna sit here and just eat my pizza by myself in silence. I'm just gonna I'm not gonna have lunch this week. Unless you guys want to eat with me. Do you guys want to eat with me?
+
+[51:10] Maybe Joe can have a pizza with you and uh yeah. All right, nice. All right, Stas. Stas, you've been replaced. No.
+
+[51:17] All right. So Chris Anderson from Modernist Pantry writes in. Hey, Chris. Modernist Pantry. Uh hope all is well.
+
+[51:24] We have just been getting a number of calls lately from your listeners looking for Novo Shape. Uh, just wanted to let you know we are now stocking it based on your recommendation. Chris Anderson from Modernist Pantry. Novo Shape, good call. Uh Stas, let's order some of that stuff for ourselves because I don't think I have any left.
+
+[51:37] Here's the uh here's the deal with Novo Shape. Novo Shape, uh it's uh the exact opposite of the enzyme that we use almost all the time, which is Pectanex Ultra SPL. Novo shape uh cross links in the presence of calcium. Don't forget to add your calcium, people. Uh you need to add calcium and it cross-links uh pectins in the presence of it and makes fruit and other vegetables a lot firmer.
+
+[51:59] So, like the ossified uh vegetables or whatever that they you know do at Moogaritza or that they do it NOMA, all that, you can do that uh without using very heavily flavor-mediated calciums by uh using Novo Shape in in conjunction with like a milder calcium. Also, if you want to make yourself some cocktail cherries from fresh cherries when cherry season runs around, or when any of your fresh fruits are coming in and you want to can them and have a real nice firm fruit, you can use Novo Shape and calcium and really firm the fruit up so that it keeps for a long time if you're gonna brand it or something like that. So uh as the spring and summer rolls around and the fruit comes in, consider getting some Novo shape to really just increase the quality of your brandied and candied fruits. How's that for a pitch? Yeah.
+
+[52:46] Okay. Uh finally, Eric writes in on the red velvet cake. Hey cooking, and uh uh I know we've done we've dealt a little bit with red velvet cake in the past, but uh here we go. Hey cooking issues crew. I've been looking into red velvet cakes recently, uh and I'd love to find a recipe without dye or beets.
+
+[53:03] My research showed that the anthocyanins, uh that anthocyanins uh would turn the batter red. Uh uh, the anthocyanins that you would turn the batter red with buttermilk and vinegar. The problem is most cocoa in these recipes is Dutch processed and is thus too basic. I'm looking, not looking for an extreme uh blood red, but something more than the brown chocolate cake that normally comes without dye. Any help would be appreciated.
+
+[53:27] Okay, here's the problem, Eric. Uh all of the natural colorings that I know that are red uh come from one of two uh like styles. There's betylanes, which are from beets and other you know related uh plants, and anthocyanins, which you get in uh things like cabbages or in uh in a bunch of flowers and teas. And all of those pigments are pH sensitive to to one degree or another. Um that said, you can uh you know you can uh cat the cabbage is fairly neutral uh if you want to go anthocyanin and beets, I don't know how how neutral it is.
+
+[54:08] The problem with beets is it's it beets are extremely concentrated source of color, which is why they're good. But uh a good source, I know you said you didn't want to do uh beets, but if you want to look at a really red cake that's beet-based, go to uh the big bake theory blogs, uh you know, blog. And they uh uh the person there, I don't know who it is actually, uh, but they they did a whole series of tests, and the red velvet cake, their beet-based red velvet cake is freaking red. And for them, you know, they they point out all the things that are important. When you're using a natural, um, when you're using a natural dye, anthocyanin or betylin based, like the things that are important are the pH, and you're gonna want your pH to be lower, which means that you're gonna have to switch away from the Dutch uh Dutch cocoa unless you really, really insist on having the flavor of the Dutch processed cocoa, in which case you're gonna have some difficulty because it's difficult to get a bright red if you're gonna have something.
+
+[55:03] I mean, the reason that Dutch processed cocoa is the color it is and is the flavor it is, is because of the alkaline processing. And I think, like in other words, I don't think you can just uh add extra acidity to neutralize the Dutch cocoa and have it work, but maybe you can. I have to run some tests. Uh heat. So they found on that website that uh, and I've noticed this as well, that the longer something is heated and the further away it is from raw, the less red it is, and the more you have to use to get it uh to that color.
+
+[55:29] So on that website, they literally blend in a food processor raw beets and water. That's gotta be one king hell mess, right? It's gotta be some messy stuff. I'm gonna make Nastasha do that if she does it because I'm gonna do it. Hey guys, we we got a tweet in for five with hashtag five things hammer likes.
+
+[55:46] Oh, let's hear it. Oh wow. I'm ready to disqualify number four, but I'll read it for you guys. All right. We've got uh champagne.
+
+[55:53] Oh, yes. Check Mark Ladner. Oh, I don't know why they said that, but I'm gonna assume check. Check. California?
+
+[56:02] Hmm. Check? That's kind of brilliant. Yeah, I guess so. I have to give.
+
+[56:06] Yeah. Okay. So you hate everything from your childhood, and that includes California. True. Go on, Jack.
+
+[56:12] All right. Number four, this is where I disqualify, hating hipsters. I don't know if you can like hating hipsters. I know. That's kind of a strong move, though.
+
+[56:19] Yeah, it is. Yeah. I like hating on hipsters, though. All right. And then number five is Zappos, aka.
+
+[56:30] So I'll let you, I'll let you give it the yay or nay, Nastasia. Yay, yeah. All right, we got a winner. Who is it? T shirts on the way.
+
+[56:37] Who is it? Cool. Uh from Twitter, we got it's Elliot Pavanow. Oh, Elliot. There we go.
+
+[56:43] And congratulations on your t shirt. Doesn't he already have a t shirt? Isn't he a member? I don't know. Email us your size or maybe your girlfriend's size or something.
+
+[56:50] Nice. We'll get one out. All right. Thanks. Thanks for writing in, Elliot.
+
+[56:53] Uh, okay, so what I would do, uh, Eric, and I'm gonna try and look more into it. I have a bunch of articles uh that I have backlog, read, uh, backlogged and to read on uh different ways to affect the stability of uh natural based red, red and blue pigments, because I've been doing some anthocyanin work uh for the bar. So I'm gonna try to get back to that. As soon as I figure it out, I'll do it. But go to the Big Bake Theories website and look up the recipe they have there.
+
+[57:18] They they don't use uh Dutch processed cocoa, and they use uh cream of tartar and buttermilk and fresh beets. Uh so anyway, check it out. I know you said no beat, but check it out. You could probably do the same thing with cabbage as long as you really acidify the sucker so that it goes bright, bright red. Uh now, on the way out, I want to say that, you know, I'm on this, you know Nation's restaurant news.
+
+[57:39] Anyone know what I'm talking about? Nation's Restaurant News? Yeah. I read it, yeah. Anyway.
+
+[57:42] Uh uh it's Nations Restaurant News. Set, you know, they send stuff to my inbox every day. So this one caught my caught my eye. KFC. This is what's awesome about the world, right?
+
+[57:52] Big this is big news. KSC is coming out with boneless chicken. Did you guys know this? Yeah, they're doing away with the regular stuff, right? Are they doing away with it?
+
+[57:59] I think they the boneless will be the new promoted line above everything else. Don't worry, folks. They're not like raising some sort of like, you know, like, you know, osteo challenged chicken. They're actual chickens that the bones have been removed from. It's not like some like weird sack of growing chicken plasm that they have around.
+
+[58:17] They're real chickens. Now, I've been saying, by the way, I've been saying boneless chicken for decades because my wife does not like to eat chicken off the bone. First of all, thank God she doesn't listen to a word I say because she hates when I talk about that in public. But she does not like to eat chicken on the bone. And so for years I've boned everything.
+
+[58:35] You know, bone the legs, bone, just bone the whole bone everything. And it is really, frankly, more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable because I'm not going to call anyone out Nastasha, but she takes three bites off the drumstick and then leaves all the meat around the bone for something. Weak. Very.
+
+[58:50] Yeah, whereas when you boneless, you eat the whole thing. That's guilty as charge, right, Stas? That is true. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, but it's it's endearing in a way.
+
+[58:58] No. No. Anyway. So uh, so here's the thing. It's like all of a sudden, it's like huge news that they're gonna go boneless on the on the on the KFC, and all they have to do to make big news is take the bones out of the freaking chicken.
+
+[59:12] That's all it takes. We're in the wrong, we're in the wrong damn business. I swear to God. But this is what got me, and this is why I'm gonna end with this. Here is a subset of everything that is wrong with the mental process of American food thinking.
+
+[59:26] Okay. Uh the the one of the one of the firms that was hired by KFC as a senior consumer research manager, said this about why they think the boneless Kentucky fried chicken is going to be popular. Are you ready for this? Uh, this is quoted in in uh Nation's Restaurant News. I think this also has to do with healthfulness.
+
+[59:47] Because if you see boneless, even if the product is breaded and fried, we tend to think of boneless as less. And so therefore, maybe more helpful. I think the healthful, seriously. Uh, I think the idea of boneless in general is one we'll see a lot more of. Can you freaking believe that, people?
+
+[1:00:08] That is how dumb. That is how dumb people think that we are that by just having the word less attached to the word bone, that the fried chicken is going to be more helpful. Not that I like thinking of fried chicken in health terms anyway, because you know what you should eat? A reasonable amount of anything you find delicious and don't go crazy, including fried chicken, bones in or bones out, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:00:39] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:01:03] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairway market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:03] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Kicking Us coming to you live! Live. The back of Roberta's Pizzeria in where is it, Jack? Uh it's this place called Bushwick.
+
+[1:15] Bushwick that Nastasia hates. Uh yeah, who won that? That was Elliot Papanow, right? That was Elliot Papanow. Shirt went out in the mail yesterday, man.
+
+[1:23] That's awesome. Nice. Thanks, buddy. Nice, nice. Uh well, joined as usual with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, uh, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth.
+
+[1:31] Hey guys. It's a beautiful day out. Yeah, uh, which Nastasha hates. Uh that's another It's not that she hates the weather. I hate the way people like the weather.
+
+[1:40] Yeah. Yeah. Nah. I you guys are getting a little bit of an insight here. A little bit of an insight.
+
+[1:45] And special guest in the studio today with us, Ariel Johnson, who is a uh now what what's your you're at UC Davis, you're in the Enology department, but you s you studying right now bitters, correct? Yeah, that's one of the things I'm studying. I do analytical chemistry and flavor chemistry on bitters and other things. Right, and you are a uh a not a professional or semi professional. I mean, uh it dovetails with your profession, but you also privately are a uh a flavor chemical collector, true or false.
+
+[2:12] Very true. Yeah. And so uh like how big's your collection now at this point? A flavor chemicals? Yeah.
+
+[2:16] Like in the lab? Uh organs that you have around, you have access to? Probably a thousand. Yeah, nice. We uh Stas and I visited uh a place called David Michaels, which is a flavor house down uh in uh outside of Philadelphia.
+
+[2:27] And what's what factory was it right near? It was right near some factory. It was making some Nabisco? Whole dang place smell like Oreos. True or false until you get in.
+
+[2:35] Anyway. And they make some amazing vanilla. They're the like I thought I knew something about vanilla and I talked to other vanilla guy, and then I realized that you know I had not yet been born. In other words, like I had less I had less knowledge about vanilla than an infant has about uh the world uh as they're born. Uh so anyway, so that we saw their flavor uh stuff.
+
+[2:52] It's pretty amazing. Amazing stuff. Any any personal favorites right now, Ariel? Favorite aroma compounds? Yeah, they're like unusual ones.
+
+[2:59] Like don't give me any, don't give me some hexanal or any crap like that. Give me some hexanazaline. Yeah, yeah, okay. Um I quite like rotundone. That's uh the impact compound for black pepper.
+
+[3:08] Wait, w what's the name of it? Rotundone. Ret rotundone, like rotund. Yeah. Yeah, it's uh it's a 15 carbon sesquiterpine.
+
+[3:15] It's also in uh Syrah wines. Yeah. Yeah. I like you know, I love the word well first of all everyone knows terpene is a great word, but sesqui. Yeah.
+
+[3:25] Add sesqui to anything. One and a half. Yeah, it's a great, you know, it's like we need to we need to have like sesqui centennials more often. Right? Totally.
+
+[3:32] Sesque centennials are are the are the bomb. Back when I was a kid, they actually were having sesqui centennials for things like uh well, when is it yeah, civil war? No, that's right now, actually, Sesque Centennial, right? Hundred and fifty. What's 150 plus?
+
+[3:44] 2011? Yeah, that was right. Sesque Centennial coming up, was coming came up on the thing. When I was a kid, it must have been some other war. Nah, whatever.
+
+[3:53] And a big thank you out to Co. Miles, who's not only a supporter of our radio network. Is this true or false, Jack? Oh, yeah, he is. Not only an incredibly uh like interesting guy I met at the Sous Vide class, uh, Sous vide low temperature class.
+
+[4:07] I will not reveal his history for fear. But also now an incredibly generous, uh, incredibly generous giver of the five-volume modernist cuisine uh set. Yeah, I'm gonna give him one of these. I mean it was awesome. And and now I never ever again will be able to make the excuse.
+
+[4:29] I don't own the books, so I can't tell you what they said, right? I vow. Yeah, I guess you gotta read them all now. I vow never to say that again. Uh very, very actual and real heartfelt thanks.
+
+[4:42] Thank you very much. Uh I believe he lives in the Houston area, right? Houston? Anyway, I think so. Um by the way, again, he's involved in NASA a little bit.
+
+[4:52] I'm so excited. This uh summer, we're uh or you know, semi-related NASA. Anyway, this summer uh stash, are you going down with us when we do the uh the mango tasting? We're gonna do the mango tasting again this year. Harold McGee and I and maybe Andy Ricker, the chef from PacPak, uh good friend of ours.
+
+[5:05] And we're gonna go last year, Harold McGee, two years ago, Harold McGee and I went to the Fairchild, which is the world's biggest collection of mangoes, at least the United States' uh biggest collection of mangoes. And unlike a lot of other mango collections throughout the world, like for instance, famous mango collections in in uh India uh or mango collections in uh Southeast Asia, the Florida one is very interesting because South Date, it's like south of Miami, where it's like the very tip where you can actually grow almost anything. You can almost grow mango seams, not quite. I mean you can, but not out in the open. Anyways.
+
+[5:33] They specialize in having everything, so like all varieties of mango. And uh the people out there, who are their names? Norris Leedman and Richard Campbell, I believe, are the two lead people out there. Uh and they are mango nuts and jackfruit nuts. Last time we were uh rained out kind of and also uh or it just was a big uh it was a big mess.
+
+[5:53] It was a big mess, the visit. But we're gonna go again. Uh and when I go down there, I'm taking the kids to Cape Canaveral. You like that? Because you know, Dak's obsessed with rockets now.
+
+[6:01] Yeah, he won't yeah, he's like, I want to become some sort of a scientist astronaut. But we'll see. We'll see. You can do it if you want. We'll see.
+
+[6:07] Okay. Uh another oh, by the way, Ariel, tell them about the special uh the special uh chromatograph thing you have. The special chromatograph thing? Yeah. The the Franken G C?
+
+[6:18] Yeah. Okay, so we have a uh a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer, which you use for analyzing the volatiles responsible for aroma in a mixture or a sample. But uh we have one with a switch and a cold trap that lets us basically remix all the volatiles from a sample or take a few out and have uh like an omission mixture and then see how that changes the aroma. Yeah, it's pretty badass, right? Yeah, yeah, it's the only one in the world.
+
+[6:41] Yeah, and so built it. Who who paid for it? Like in other words, what research, what research had money for it? Um I think honestly, we built it from spare parts. Really?
+
+[6:51] Yeah. So this is one of the rare instances where you get to do something cool in a scientific context and don't need to get big industry to pay for it. Yeah, we might have had a little bit of National Science Foundation or um Jastro Shields, which is like a UC Davis-based environmental chemistry grant, but Jastro Shields? Yeah, it's like some endowed thing. Is that like a like a space robot?
+
+[7:10] What is that? No, I think it's a person. Um sorry, Jasper. But uh, but yeah, I mean basically it's an old, an older GC that we were replaced with a newer model, so we um maybe spent like a thousand, two thousand dollars on parts and then put it together. Nice.
+
+[7:26] And uh and uh you weren't using that piece of equipment, I don't think, but Ariel is the person who's doing the uh the GC work um on the Searsol, showing that the torch taste that we all had thought was uh you know a product of incomplete combustion was act is actually more likely caused by um secondary combustion products from the high temperature of the torch, true or false. Yeah, that's what it looks like. That's what it looks like. And uh also did some uh some uh you know work for us on what happens to lime juice over time as it ages, correct? Yeah.
+
+[7:56] And you want to give us the quick the quick spin down on the findings there? Uh it's looking like rather than finding any specific oxidation products over the course of like four to twenty hours, we're actually seeing like an overall reduction in volatiles. Right. So you think it's and then Harold McGee, uh, you know, it's always been uh saying that it thing changes like this could uh often just be the reduction of stuff that's covering other stuff up rather than the creation of new crap. Yeah?
+
+[8:20] Yeah, definitely. That's totally possible. Yeah, you like can you imagine like paraphrasing McGee with the words crap interspersed every other word? Like for those of you that know him, like he doesn't talk that way. Yeah, yeah, he doesn't, he's not like crap on this crap unless unless he's imitating me, in which case in which case he does.
+
+[8:36] He does a pretty good imitation of me, I think. I don't hear him do you. You never heard him do it? He does my jer my jersey sometimes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:44] Anyways. Uh okay, let's do some questions before we get into some other craziness. Like, how to uh one more craziness. I had a really bad dream about mashed potatoes last night. Horrible.
+
+[8:53] Yeah, it was horrible. Like, well, so it was one of these situations where you're cooking dinner, right? And you let somebody else do something at your house for dinner, you know? It's a dream. Don't worry, people, this didn't happen.
+
+[9:04] And uh somehow they they were mashing the purpose potatoes. I don't know how the hell that happened in my house because you know, usually they don't they're not they don't mash so well. But anyway, whatever. So like whatever. They're mashing the potatoes.
+
+[9:15] And then I looked at the mashed potatoes right before they were gonna go out because I was seeing whether they were gonna add butter and or cream, and you know, I have my thoughts about both. And uh it was simultaneously lumpy and gloppy. And I was like, what the what the what have you done to the mashed potatoes? And they're like, Man, I put it in the food processor. It's like, what?
+
+[9:36] I was like, uh, you know I own both a ricer and a food meal. I own both. I own several of each. I was like, oh my god, I woke up in a sweat. I was like, oh I woke up and the mashed potatoes hadn't been destroyed that way.
+
+[9:51] That's but isn't that horrible? That's awful. It's horrible. Uh but it reminds me of a very interesting recipe that uh Nils, Noran used to make where he used to actually put potatoes with a little excess liquid in a vita prep and blend them until every single starch granule is completely ruptured and it formed kind of a gluey like potato gloop. And it was actually good, which is a classic example.
+
+[10:12] Another thing McGee uh harps on and I do as well, of taking something that is normally a flaw and pushing it so hard it becomes a benefit again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, enough enough of my crazy.
+
+[10:24] Maybe listeners should send us their food nightmares too, if they have any. Yeah? Yeah. Listeners, if you have any food nightmares, I don't mean actual food nightmares like you know, you incinerated the chicken, although I also appreciate those stories, Jack. You answer those questions.
+
+[10:36] I answer uh I try to prevent you from incinerating them and then tell you why they were incinerated. But uh yeah, if you have any actual like food like nightmares like that, it's like similar to the one where like you're trying to run away from someone and your feet turn to rubber. You know what that is? It's your feet are asleep. In the real life, you're in bed, your legs have gone asleep, and then so your legs actually can't move properly when you're asleep, and your body somehow senses this and turns your legs to rubber.
+
+[10:59] Yeah. Yeah. That's my theory. But born born by the fact that I've woken up, I have horrible circulation. What the heck?
+
+[11:06] This is not about this. Okay, okay, sorry. Okay. Uh we have a question in. Uh we have a late name for the uh we have a late name for the uh Searsol.
+
+[11:15] They wanted to name it Salah Hammer after you, after you stuff. Because it, you know, looks like a hammer, functional salamander, and would be your favorite weapon of choice. So Nastasha appreciates it, but as you know, we've already chosen the name. Okay. Ryan Santos writes in, here's a here's a clear here's a typical cooking issues question.
+
+[11:31] Uh I wrote in last week about whether it was worth spending $400 to get all uh to get a 200 milliliter centrifuge. Uh and I I said no. I said I don't think so. You know, no, I wouldn't say so. Uh you mentioned the cheaper uh champion model, but uh mentioned I could get into the three-liter range for about a thousand bucks.
+
+[11:47] So far, internet digging hasn't found me a model uh with three liters for that price. Can you follow up on that comment with some suggestions for that price quantity? Thanks, Ryan Santos. Well, uh I don't know whether these guys are all tapped out or not, but look, the the trick is this. Um the company that I buy my centrifuges, uh the manufacturer of my centrifuges is out of business.
+
+[12:07] Because it's out of business, you can get fairly good prices on ones that are of semi-recent origin, uh less than a decade old, right? And some of them haven't seen a lot of use. And the advantage is because they were somewhat common back in the day, there are lots of parts available. The company I use is Juan, which is a French company. Uh Juan was bought by Thermo, right, which is a large manufacturer of all kinds of scientific equipment.
+
+[12:29] Which is, I guess it's a division of Thermo Fisher, right? Or Thermo Fisher. Yeah. And so anyway, so Thermo bought those guys and then discontinued the Zhuan brand, right? So most people, when they're buying new centrifuges, most of the chefs I know, they're going, they're buying headaches, is what they're buying.
+
+[12:48] I don't know why. I guess they have a good price point, or they know, or like, you know, one buys one and then the other buys one. But I know Tony Canoyaro has a headache and Wiley both have headaches. Uh fairly small footprint. And but but for a non-refrigerated one, I think you're looking at like seven grand.
+
+[13:02] And for you know, uh fully tricked out one, you're probably looking closer to eight to ten grand with buckets and everything like that. Swinging bucket, you want to go swinging bucket. Um we can get into that much later about why you would choose a swinging bucket or a fixed uh angle centrifuge. If anyone actually cares about it, I could talk for a long time about which one you'd prefer. But anyway, uh in the kitchen, most likely you want a uh swinging bucket just because the fixed angle rotors, unless you have like a very special fixed angle rotor, have very narrow throats on the on the uh on the containers that are in them, and it's very hard to get the product out, even though technically they pellet a lot faster than a uh than uh swinging bucket does.
+
+[13:39] Okay, whatever. Again, um I don't buy uh the used ones from Zhuan can be very cheap. Uh now I used to buy them for a couple hundred bucks. I've talked about them enough. There's not that many out there, so you know, if ten people listen to me, then all of a sudden the price jumps and the availabilities go go down.
+
+[13:56] That said, there's a company called Ozark Biomedical, and they're somewhere in the Ozarks, God help me. I think they're in Arkansas somewhere. I think so, yeah. And uh Ozark Biomedical specializes in uh used and uh like fixing centrifuges, and one of the ones they carry is Zhuan. They often have reconditioned units, and they can run between 1,200 and 2500 or 3,000 bucks in that range with buckets and like a 90-day warranty, which is probably good enough.
+
+[14:25] Most stuff's gonna break within that period if it's gonna break. They'll also make sure that your uh buckets are sterilized for you, so you don't have to go on like bleachrabies.com and get rid of everything out of it. And uh they make sure that your buckets aren't dinged up so that you're not gonna have any like immediate fatigue fractures and a poorly handled bucket, and they make sure that the rotors are good. I mean the hazards these these centrifuges that rotate at these speeds aren't uh they're not like ultrafuges or super speeds where you actually have a possibility of of um what would you call it breaching the wall of the centrifuge should there be a rotor failure, right? So you know, once you get into the much larger, um much faster models, the the the energy contained is so great that you can throw even a large piece of equipment across and through a lab, you know.
+
+[15:09] And there are plenty of pictures on the internet's uh uh internets of uh rotor failures uh in ultra centrifuges. Now these units, as long as you get a newer unit that has the safety interlock, so you can't run it. Well, you can, but I'm not gonna talk about it, run it with the lid open, um, you know, you're probably not in a life or limb death situation. That said, you don't want to have a rotor failure. And when you buy used, you don't know whether some knucklehead like threw the buckets around, you don't know whether or not they cracked it, you don't know whether they cleaned it with a uh a detergent that is uh deleterious to aluminum, which is what these buckets are made out of.
+
+[15:44] You don't know whether it's sustained an impact, you don't know anything like this. So you sometimes I'll take a chance and I'll look at it and you know I'll make a judgment. But I've been using centrifuges for a bunch of years, and I had a bunch of people who had been using centrifuges for years look at my centrifuges before I started running them when I knew nothing about centrifuges. If you go with Ozark biomedical you won't be paying that much compared you'll be paying like probably a third to less of what you would buy for the equivalent new model and it's kind of guaranteed to work out of the box and they're also very friendly and we'll walk you through the parts of it if you have problems with it and they carry motors and boards and buckets and all the replacement parts. Hope that is that helpful yes okay because new ones are expensive.
+
+[16:25] I mean look oh look I just had someone yesterday hey Dave where can I buy a new centrifuge? I'm like you pass why is it that we've been doing this for so long and we're still buying scrippity scrappities off the internet. Do you remember that like our new what's our New Year's resolution styles you remember? No duct tape right no no duct tape on the box. I'm still a fan of duct tape the product but our our box of crap that we show up with will not be duct taped together anymore.
+
+[16:46] We're making the move to new bankers' boxes whenever we're moving stuff around by ourselves for no reason. And having other people move it well I mean I wouldn't go that far another wrist I told you it's like it's Joe are you over there? Yeah I'm here I'm here you know how like you know when you're a musician and you say every year you're like man next year someone else is going to carry my base rig. You know what I'm saying? Yeah get a van driver and all that.
+
+[17:10] Yeah people are going to carry our crap in and out of the gigs that ever happen? No. Of course not yeah no it never happens. You always end up carrying your own crap. You know what?
+
+[17:19] 42 still carrying my own crap I kind of like I kind of like being able to do it. Kind of keeps you not being a uh uh whatever anyway whatever. Uh so I have like a lot of years of carrying my own crap to go. That's what I just got from that. That's awesome.
+
+[17:33] Yeah, you know, you know what? Like plenty of people, I don't know, or just you know, don't follow the route where you, you know, make it a priority to have people carry carry your crap for you. Like uh, you know, we always dreamed but never made it a priority. Look where we are. Anyway.
+
+[17:45] Uh Chad Drazen writes in uh about this thing. What the heck is this thing? Uh and he uh points to a link on uh smokerama.com. Awesome website name, right? That is a pretty epic website name.
+
+[17:58] Yeah, yeah. You know you know what they make? Styles, any idea what they make? Aerial, anything? Is it is it food or marijuana?
+
+[18:03] Wow, uh good idea. They should get into that business, but uh they are pressure smoker manufacturers, pressure smoker, which I've never used a pressure smoker, but they're like you can make you can make a barbecue um barbecue ribs. They're not from around here, so they don't sound like that. You can make a barbecue rib in like an hour, like an hour flat. I don't really know that that's the case.
+
+[18:22] You can make a soft rib with a smoked flavor in an hour. Oh, is this the thing where it cooks the hamburger in like 12 seconds? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it like a pressure fryer? No, well, I mean, I'm presumably they they generate the smoke under pre like the entire system is sealed under pressure, and then I guess they must use a compressor to evacuate evacuate the excess smoke.
+
+[18:38] I have no idea. I didn't have a chance to look that up because it just came to me this morning. But uh, we but rest assured we will check it out. People are interested in smoking in every dang environment. People are like, can I smoke in my vacuum machine?
+
+[18:49] Can I smoke in my can I smoke in my clothes dryer? Can I smoke, you know, everyone wants to smoke in everything. True or false? Very true. Yeah, smoke.
+
+[18:56] Uh anyway, by smokerama, the folks who make large pressure smokers, and then in parents, are pressure smokers any good. Again, uh, Chad, I have no idea. I have no idea. Anyway, um the thing, the the the title of it, you ready for this? Instant burger.
+
+[19:12] Wow. You like that? Yeah. I wish we had invented something with that name. Seriously.
+
+[19:16] Instant burger. Okay. So uh it cooks uh precisely measured burgers, and by that they mean you're supposed to scoop it in like with a with a scooper delicious. Yeah, uh, and you're not allowed to put salt on the burger beforehand for reasons that will become apparent. But you can put in onions and bell peppers, but if you do that, you're not making a hamburger.
+
+[19:34] Listen to me, people. Do not put onions and bell peppers in raw inside of your hamburger. I think it's a horrible idea. What do you think, Sas? I think onions are raw?
+
+[19:43] I like a big thing of raw onion on top of my burger. But if you put it inside the burger, it'll just get like boiled. Yeah. Right? Yeah, that's not tasty.
+
+[19:50] There you go. See, take it from the scientist. Uh no offense if that's the way you make your burgers. No offense. Stas is like, you offend everyone, then say no offense.
+
+[19:58] It doesn't help. But it does. It does. People rarely get offended. Uh okay.
+
+[20:03] So uh it cooks uh precisely measured burgers in 25 seconds without getting hot. Now that's not strictly speaking true. It the the burgers get hot. What they mean is there's no a lot of not a lot of excess heat pumped into the kitchen. Okay.
+
+[20:14] Uh it draws an awful lot of current. I think their manual says 30 amps. Although I th uh 30, maybe it's like 20. I don't know, I gotta look it up. It runs off a regular 110 line.
+
+[20:21] So it does I don't know of any 110 appliances that take 30, so it's probably more like 15 or 20. Anyway, is this just an electric chair for burgers? Yes, it is. Uh it claims to cook the hamburgers simultaneously inside and out and only cooks them to well done by design. There's a microprocessor that determines when it's done, I suppose, by measuring the current load.
+
+[20:40] How does this work? Love the show. More questions for me to follow. Chad Drazen from 50 Licks LLC. Another good name, 50 Licks.
+
+[20:46] Although, oh no, we're not gonna get into the Tootsie Roll Center of a Tootsie Pop. We already talked about that on the air. You make a plane. You make a plane with licks? Yeah.
+
+[20:56] Was it any good? Yeah, it was really good. Oh good, yeah. Good shut up. Okay.
+
+[20:59] So uh yes, this is in fact an electric chair for hamburgers, and it works on a uh so there's direct resistance heating, right? So there's there's different ways you can heat things, okay? So one is by heating the air near something. This is how, you know, uh ovens work. Uh radiant heating by generating large amounts of uh IR.
+
+[21:17] That's how uh you know, infrared broilers work, French fry lamps work, the searchone uh by uh conduction, what we uh those things are all conduction in one way. Well, radiation's not, but the other one, the regular air oven actually is conduction mixed with convection. Well, I'm not gonna get into it. But one way you can generate oh the microwaves, right, where you're actually uh causing friction by vibrating the molecules on the inside of a uh on the inside of the food. That's an internal cooking technique.
+
+[21:43] Another way you can do it is to strap electrodes to something and pass a large amount of current through it, use the object itself as a resistor, and then uh use the resistance of the food itself to heat the food, right? And that's the that's the principle of uh ohmic, direct ohmic, you know, ohm, the unit of resistance, heating, resistance heating. Now, uh a lot of this has been tried in f and actually uh did I ever talk on the air stops about the electric chair for lobsters? Maybe. Well, there's this company in England that tried to make it uh uh an electric chair for lobsters to shock lobsters to instantly kind of stun slash kill them before you boil them, and it's two wet plates, and you pull the wet plates down and it's conductive and it and it like fries the lobster, but you need a very doesn't fry it it, it it it zorches its uh its uh nervous system.
+
+[22:29] But you have to use a pretty I mean I was using I tested it with kind of bad results because the carapace got bent in a weird way. I used regular uh you know uh sixty hertz um wall socket uh one twelve one ten voltage. Uh with mixed results. Uh I yeah, I didn't think it was any more humane and didn't make the lobster any more delicious than just cooking it and left scorch marks on the carapace. But um anyway, so this is a technique that was it was touted as a humane way to dispatch lobsters, and I I didn't have good luck.
+
+[22:57] But uh that said, Electro-stunning is a huge field uh in both large value fish like tuna, uh things like this, and waveform and uh the way the current is applied is extremely important in terms of how uh effective it is. But that that that aside, uh, yeah, this is an electric chair. So what they do is is you you you have two conductive plates, you you set the thickness of the plate with a spacer on the inside, you smash the thing down, it squishes the burger flat, right? And uh, and this is why you don't use salt, because presumably it changes the uh conductivity of the meat. And they like a specific fat content.
+
+[23:31] They say it's for uh juiciness, but I'm sure it's also to get a specific conductivity through the meat. You push it down, and from what I can gather on their pat on the kind of literature around it and some of the patents around it, it just passes a large electric current through it. I don't know, it's probably measuring yeah, how much uh load the burger is providing uh at the beginning versus the end, therefore judging doneness based, I guess on I don't know whether they're measuring denaturation or water loss or whatever, but it's like and done, and it literally heats the burger by zapping it with the electric current. That's an interesting idea. Yeah.
+
+[24:03] And the old models used to have a rare and a well-done knob, and they've removed it because it turns out that the they don't want you to actually mess with it, and it's it's in other words, the people who wanted rare burgers weren't buying the instant burger. It's the people that you know didn't want to think about things that were buying the instant burger to the extent that here's what the here's their bullet points of how awesome they are. Ready? No cooking oils needed, but you do need uh a hamburger that's uh you know 30% fat. Yeah, whatever.
+
+[24:30] Anyway, whatever. It's like one of those things. No extra cooking oil is the guess what they what they mean. I mean, I prefer a burger with more fat. Like that's one thing I don't like about the Whole Foods hamburger meat, is that they're like, it's 93% lean.
+
+[24:40] Yeah, definitely. And horrible. Yeah. Yeah. No offense, Whole Foods.
+
+[24:44] Uh normally no hood or venting needed because it's not on very all very long, right? Here's my favorite. No cooking skills needed. Sweet. Don't you want your hamburger styles made by someone with no cooking skills?
+
+[24:57] Don't worry. We make it in a way that it doesn't matter whether they give a crap or not. Really, it could be a machine pushing the button here and joy. Uh and cooks out calorie laden fat, but retains the delicious natural juices. That's just hocum.
+
+[25:11] That's just crap. Yeah, I don't buy that. I don't yeah, I don't buy that. Cooks out the calorie laden fat. Anyway, so I thought that was really uh an interesting an interesting thing.
+
+[25:20] Uh resistive hamburger cooker. Apparently it will also cook uh chicken breasts. As long as you anything you can squ squish flat between the two plates and get good conduction all the way through, you can cook and it cooks it very, very quickly. I'm anxious to try one uh at some point to see whether I like although if you smash a burger flat and cook the bejesus out of it, I don't really think it matters that much how you cook it. What does it do to the outside, do you know?
+
+[25:43] It looked brown on the website, but it's you know, it's hard to say, and I don't really know how much this thing costs. I mean, like I I like I I'm a fan of a bunch of different burgers. If you're gonna have a thin smash burger, it needs to have plenty of mocho grease, and then basically what you're saying is I like the flavor of a beef crust wallowing in grease with hamburger fixings on it, and maybe like a little bit of meat in the middle that's you know, still like kind of meat. Right? Is this true or false?
+
+[26:05] Am I wrong? Yeah. And if you like a thicker burger, it means you actually want some sort of like, you know, the the texture of like a lot of yeah, whatever. Uh I mean I see both I see both sides, but uh Nick Solaris, you know, hamburger guru, he likes a smash burger, I think, as as well does uh Josh Azersky, I think, believes. I think so, yeah.
+
+[26:22] Smash burger fan. Modernist cuisine, not so much. They like the they like the big poofy open like parallel string of meat. Parallel string of meat burger, yeah. Okay.
+
+[26:30] Okay, wait, should we take a break, Jack? I can't see the I can't see the clock behind the giant modernist cuisine volume. Okay, we're gonna take a break. Come back cooking issues. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets.
+
+[26:51] You know, there's no more telling aspect, no more revealing virtue of a group of people having evolved in a lovely way than how they feed themselves, how they entertain, how they put food on the table, what they put on the table. Heritage Radio Network provides the clearest evidence that there's hope for us yet. Heritage Radio is like Fairway Market, and that we both care deeply about what you're having for dinner tonight. Heritage Radio Network is not just about food, though. Every time I tune in, I learn something about things other than food, too.
+
+[27:22] Architecture, design, stuff like that. But from where I stand, I still say if you can't eat it, what's the point? For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com. Did you know Heritage Radio Network.org is a member supported nonprofit organization. If you like what you're listening to, go to our website and click that donate button.
+
+[27:52] Become a member and get special discounts, invites, VIP treatment, t shirts, and more. Support us in our mission to bring you the freshest food content in the nation. And welcome back. Welcome back. Cooking issues.
+
+[28:07] By the way, uh Mark Ladner, good friend of ours, Mark Ladner, is doing for the Heritage Radio Network on April 27th. When is that? That's like a week and a half? Week and a half. Is doing an Abruzzi style Italian barbecue on Saturday, April 27th, between 6 and 9.
+
+[28:24] Where's it gonna be, Stas? You know? Is it gonna be here? Not sure. Not sure.
+
+[28:28] Anyway, Joe, you know where it is? I uh I'm gonna have to do some research, but I'll get back to you. But the beer's by Harpoon uh and the music is by Herbert Spiffling spliffling. Splifflington. I wonder whether he enjoys uh some of the herbal medicine.
+
+[28:45] No comment on that one. Uh and you can go to uh Italian BBQ.eventbrite.com to buy your tickets for $65. And you know what's worth the ticket price alone, people? Is uh if you go look at the image they have for it, it's it's this it's not Mark's whole face. It's just the special Ladner glasses.
+
+[29:02] The special Ladner glasses. Stas, what are your thoughts on the special Ladner glasses? You got getting a shake of the head. Uh getting a shake off. Pitcher is shaking off the Ladner glasses comment.
+
+[29:10] Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Uh by the way, you still time to call in your questions. 2718 4972128.
+
+[29:18] That's 714972128. Got a question in on soda bottles. Uh, Jeff Kanoff at Jeff2486 on the Twitter says, Any safety issue with reusing old soda bottles multiple times for the carbonation system that you outlined. What we're talking about is when I carbonate things, I use uh soda bottles. Usually I use 20 ounces for test batches.
+
+[29:38] I use one liters at the bar, one and a half and two liters for events where you know you're gonna pour a lot out. Uh soda bottles are made of uh P-E-T. Uh, right? P-E-T-E-P-A-B. What are those things?
+
+[29:48] One of those uh one of those things. And uh, you know, I use them multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times. Uh and is there a safety issue? Uh, not that I'm aware. I mean, I don't believe that they have similar issues to uh PVC where you get uh not PVC, um Lexan related things where you get you cook it in the dishwasher and you get uh deter like detergents plus it plus heat equals the release of nasty chemicals.
+
+[30:15] I don't think that's the case. I think they're fairly neutral. I never put them in the dishwasher, I just do uh hot water soap rinses and let them dry out. Uh and I've I'm not aware of any safety issue. The reason I think a lot of times people don't want you to reuse it is kind of bacterial reasons, but you know, we're putting carbonated stuff in them and alcoholic stuff, and we're washing them very thoroughly in between, and all the time in between they're they're you know, they're either dry or they're in a fridge with alcoholic beverage that are carbonated, which are very bacteriostatic in terms of you could get yeast, but they're not pathogenes, so they're not gonna cause problems.
+
+[30:46] Uh not health problems anyway. And so, yeah, I'd say from that standpoint, it's safe. You want to make sure that you use uh I mean you could tell when they start to kind of go south on you, and certain newer bottles have uh like outer layers, I think that are laminated on for you know um gas barrier properties. Uh, but I'm not aware of any safety issues. If you use bottles that are not intended for carbonation, they can explode.
+
+[31:10] So for instance, if you uh use Fiji water with the goofy square bottles that you know, that made the millions of dollars, that goofy square bottle. But if you use the Fiji water with the with the goofy square bottle and you carbonate uh it can explode. I remember once, so I'm this kind of guy where um where I ask once, I ask twice, and then I just scream around and break and like break crap. This is true or false, does? Three times a lady though.
+
+[31:32] Three times a lady. Well, that's why it's why I only ever once got the lady. I only ever asked three times, you know, found my wife, got married, done. Right? No, but normally it's like I'm like, where's the bottle?
+
+[31:42] No response. Where's the bottle? No response. And then just grab the Fiji bottle, which is there, and I filled it full of coarse coffee, and I was carbonating it with nitrous to get the nitrous feet, you know, the n the nitrous oxide, which gives a creamy feel and brings body back to coffee without giving the that kind of uh uh that prickly sensation that you get out of carbon dioxide, and boom, it blows up and sprees coffee in like in you know, like poof, all around the room. So like I had a line painted across me of coffee, and there was a line all around the room, uh, in this tiny is before we were in the trash room styles.
+
+[32:20] For a while I was housed in a closet uh in the amphitheater. And uh so the entire closet in the amphitheater had uh this is back at the French culinary, had like a line of coffee around it that lasted years. They could never get that thing off. Maybe they repainted over it eventually. So the answer is is that they also if you heat uh bottles with very hot stuff, like if you're trying to do um like a gel, let's say you were trying to do a gel-an fluid gel, you need to carbonate it when it's very hot.
+
+[32:43] Aside from the problem that it's hard to get carbonation in things when they're hot because uh the hotter it is, the less the CO2 wants to go in there. Uh those bottles start loser losing their structural integrity somewhere, probably in the 70s or 80s Celsius, 80s, 90s in that range, they lose their structural integrity and they can start to balloon out on you, which could could be a safety issue because if it explodes when it's hot, it's spraying hot crap everywhere. It's doing more than ruining your jacket. But other than that, I mean like chemical safe. You heard anything, Ariel on saying?
+
+[33:12] I haven't heard any mishaps. Yeah, yeah. I don't think so. Yeah. But uh you want to make sure they're not very good gas barriers over the long haul.
+
+[33:23] So you don't want to uh store a carbonated beverage in it and think that it's gonna remain carbonated in perpetuity, right? Another problem uh with plastics in general, now uh these plastic bottles are designed not to do it too much. I mean they're they're chosen not to do this, but like the plastics can um do what's called scalp flavors. So especially if you have oil based flavors that are in there or anything that has kind of a hydrophobic component on it, that can absorb into the plastic, then the plastic can take on a smell, which then gets transferred to your next batch, and also it can it can remove enough flavor from things. It's called scalping, flavor scalping, that you uh alter the flavor of your product by the absorption on it.
+
+[34:00] And like you get this especially in sodas, you'll notice when like low quality sodas with high levels of s suspended oils in them, grape uh um orange, you'll see the bottles are actually discolored, which is why and also things like root beers tend to leave aromas in the bottle that are hard to get out, which is why when I'm carbonating, I prefer to buy seltzer bottles because they come neutral. Yeah, just for what it's worth, which is probably nothing. Uh okay. Uh next question in. From Winehacker on liquid nitrogen from Mooth.
+
+[34:32] Hello, Dave. Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. They he didn't know you you were gonna be here. That's okay. Yeah, okay.
+
+[34:36] Uh love the show almost through all the back episodes. Now that uh I have that out of the way, I have a couple of questions. I sent Nastasha an email a couple of weeks ago with some questions about the general use of LN in a bar time environment. She seems to have ignored it, which is fine. Well well, wine hacker.
+
+[34:52] Your name is Wine Hacker. So my email recognizes you as spam. Wow. Because you decided to name yourself wine hacker. So I found it buried in nine hundred other spam emails.
+
+[35:07] Wow. Wow. See, this is why we call her the hammer. Like now, you know, wine wine hacker, you're getting you're getting a little taste. He just got schooled.
+
+[35:14] Well this is very instructive. I want people to get a little taste of what it's like uh when she's not on the air. Like that's like a little little like peer like peek through the veil of what it can be like. Anyway, uh WineHacker moderated the comments with she seems to have ignored it, which is fine. I often ignore myself too.
+
+[35:31] Which is very good. Like self-deprecation. Since we are closer to the date of our event I also have some questions about vermouth. Sorry to have so many questions at once. I hope you can uh feel free to to uh break the answer into parts so I don't dominate the show whatever I'm just gonna do it.
+
+[35:42] Ready? Go do it. The winery where I work is a union wine company in the Willemette Valley, Oregon. You know familiar with those people, Ariel? I've heard of them.
+
+[35:49] Yeah? Good things? Uh yeah, yeah. I've I've never tried their stuff, but I've heard of them. Alright.
+
+[35:53] Uh we'll be having an event in a couple of weeks. The theme is uh speakeasy. Go ahead and make fun of us for uh being so original i.e. not original the energy uh I only have a certain amount of energy. Do you have energy to make fun of speakeasies?
+
+[36:06] She's all tapped out she's still tapped out with the anger for being called out on air that she has no more you know anger to make fun of what? You should be happy that I'm tapped out with you for the whole day? Well I don't I don't know about that. You'll be you'll you know you'll get a diet Dr. Pepper no Dr.
+
+[36:20] Pepper I drink the whatever don't get me started. Okay. Uh once she gets some caffeine after the show she'll get her anger back. Don't worry. Um we're gonna move things around in the cellar set up a bar rent some furniture and other era appropriate props to fit the theme.
+
+[36:31] Uh when I began to think about drinks we might serve in addition to our wines I immediately thought about a podcast a couple of weeks ago and decided to make our own vermouth. We will probably try to keep things fairly simple and offer two drinks. Manhattan and martini are probably front runners, they're delicious. Uh partially since uh they both use vermouth, uh though I will need to make a red and a white vermouth. Uh anyway, one thing I'm thinking about using is liquid nitrogen.
+
+[36:54] Uh so like what like let's do the um let's do the vermouth section first because he's about to go into liquid nitrogen, but then we go back to vermouth. In terms of vermouth, we started looking uh at commercial examples, trying to find a couple of benchmarks. We looked at four examples Carpano Antica, Dolan Rosso, Dolan Blanc, Blanc Blank, blank, uh Dolan Blanc and uh in Bue, an Oregon-made product. The Carpano stood out above everything else, though we like some of the herbal aromatics of the Dolan Rosso. The Dolan Blanc was very nice, though seemingly relic uh relatively simple compared to the other three.
+
+[37:21] The Imbu had very interesting aromatics, probably using pine fur or something similar. Are there any other commercial examples you suggest we look at? Uh currently I think we will try to make a sweeter red and a drier white. Uh well before I get into the other things that you write, uh yeah. Uh I would look at um martelletti.
+
+[37:37] So martelletti is uh, you know, I had it first maybe three three years ago, three, four years ago, I started coming into New York as far as I can tell. And uh it's very, very good, uh completely different um mouthfeel, thinner mouthfeel, and different kind of aromatic setup from uh carpano, uh and not played out yet, which is good. You know what I mean? Like it's it's like people know about it, but not a ton of people know about it, so you can still be kind of the first kid on your block to have it, as far as I know. It's good.
+
+[38:08] Uh you know, you uh uh made by the Carpano people, uh Punta Mes is you know, try that out. Uh and then on the white side, I guess classic, you know, you should try Noy Pratt, but you know, I I don't use it much. I actually use Dolan quite a lot for my for my white. I like the Dolan uh Blanc and the there's Dolan Dry. I actually and I like the their sweeter one better, the Blanc.
+
+[38:28] I tend to tend to use it more than I do the dry, but not from Martinis. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Uh although bear in mind that uh the sweet vermouth that you usually put in Manhattan's is made from white wine. Oh, yeah, he mentions it.
+
+[38:41] Well, no, it's red and white only because of the coloring the ad, not because it's red and white wine. Burr is the only one I think that I know of that's made is the only aperitif wine that actually starts from a red. Well the Dull and Rosso might actually be from a red wine. Really? But there's a dull and sweet that I think is just dull and sweet white or the dull and sweet.
+
+[38:56] There's as far as I know, there's the rosso, the sweet white, and the the dry. But I think the sweet white's closer to a regular sweet vermouth. Yeah, I like it actually. I like that product. But anyway, um other thing I would look, I would go beyond strictly speaking, vermousse, and I would go into other uh aperitif wines like uh for instance cookie americano.
+
+[39:14] That's a good one. Uh or if you want something a little on the kind of more mainstream, I guess Lila, or like Bonal Quinquina. Yeah, all that stuff's good. So, like, you know, go and and by the way, good websites for the uh well, I'll go into what you say. So here's a s here's a summary.
+
+[39:27] This is wine hacker. Here's a summary of what I think I know about the manufacturing of vermouth. Base wine is nearly always white, sometimes very neutral, sometimes an aromatic variety. Muscat for example. Sometimes it is purpose purposefully aged and oxidized, sometimes not.
+
+[39:38] I'll add also that they often use a wine where they purposely stop fermentation by redoping it, uh by doping with alcohol before they right? Yeah, yeah, like port. Yeah, so not the same as port, but like a mistel, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay.
+
+[39:50] Uh wormwood, uh chinchona bark, and gentian are the major sources of bittering. Can be. Yeah. Uh right, true. Uh botanicals are extracted in alcohol, dilute alcohol, wine or fortified wine, sometimes uh times vary from hours to months.
+
+[40:02] True. Or cooking, too. Yeah, cooking, yeah. Well, yeah, it's right. Yeah.
+
+[40:06] Like heat. Right, heat, right, sure. Yeah. Uh sometimes extractions are distilled or steam distilled. Of course, that would just be adding a distilled stuff.
+
+[40:11] Is that true? Adding essential oils if you're distilling. Sure, that's fancy way of saying that. Sure. Yeah.
+
+[40:17] I mean, his the could be her, a wine hacker. Sounds like a guy, though. I think it's caramel. Yeah. Uh caramel can be added for coloring.
+
+[40:24] Uh, juice or sugar can also be used. It depends on the uh standard of identity, right? What kinds of juices can be added? I think so. Yeah, I think you have to add grape sugar and or cane sugar, right?
+
+[40:29] No other look at it. Um total sugar is around four percent for dry and between ten and fifteen for sweet. Uh final wine must be at least seventy five percent wine, the other twenty-five consisting of sugar, alcohol, and water. Anything else that anything else uh missing there? No, I mean that sounds about right.
+
+[40:49] Yeah. By the way, remember vermouth uh is an acidic ingredient. So a lot of times and sugar. So people add things that are like, Manhattan doesn't really have any sugar or um or acid. I'm like, you're wrong.
+
+[41:00] No, that's that's BS. Yeah, it's wrong. Yeah. Uh okay. Uh I'm looking at a wine range of herbs and flavors.
+
+[41:05] I'm having trouble with color right now. There are three herbs I've found for coloring. Red sandalwood, another seed, and rosebuds. However, I think I need something more. The color is not uh a dark enough red.
+
+[41:14] It's a bit too much like an orange colored rose. I don't want to use more sandalwood because it gives too much woody flavor. Hell yes, it does. Sandalwood. Hell yeah.
+
+[41:21] Uh Anados to orange. I may have to cheat in that a few percent red wine or perhaps uh find the sandwood extracts. Any suggestions are appreciated. Can you buy cochineal here? I'm not sure.
+
+[41:30] I mean, would you want something that red? That's hardcore red. Well, I mean I would focus on the flavor more than the color. Yeah, I mean, because the reds are usually actually more brown. Yeah, so burnt number.
+
+[41:41] Yeah. Right. So like, you know, caramel classic old school caramel color. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you can buy coachine eal, that's mean like it's pretty badass.
+
+[41:48] I don't know if is it is there an FDA against that? Are we okay? Is that grass here? I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[41:55] You know, cochineal, crushed up a K A, crushed up bugs. Uh yeah, oh you know, or you could also, I mean, if you wanted to, you could use an anthocyanin that's read at the at the at those pHs, but they're not stable. So unless you're not gonna use it right away, you know, they're not time stable, they're not heat stable, and they're not light stable. Um you know, that that's been my experience with them. Anyway, uh any suggestions are appreciated.
+
+[42:16] Okay. Also, how may one sponsor your radio show? Joe, any ideas on that one? That would be send an email to info at heritage radio network.org. And also um the Abruzie Barbecue is going to be at the Heritage Warehouse, which is right around the corner from uh Roberta's.
+
+[42:34] So that's my info. Yeah. But go ahead and get it get yourself a uh your hands on the uh Martelletti and try that and try those other ones. And try Coke Americano. We use a boatload of Coke Americano at the bar.
+
+[42:44] Delicious. Yeah, I love Coke. Yeah, Cokey is good stuff and an awesome name, Coke. Coke Americano. That and Corpse Revivor is a good idea.
+
+[42:50] Yeah, Coke. Fantastic. Um and go to these websites. Go to Vermouth 101, which is run by uh Martin Duderoff, uh you know, a good fellow. Uh uh interesting site that points you to a lot of things.
+
+[43:00] And I don't own it, but uh, you know, I know Jared Brown and uh Anastasia Miller, and they wrote a book called The Mixalini Guide to Vermouth and other uh Paratis. And uh I haven't read the book, but I know them personally, and so you should go take a look uh take a look at that. It's available on the Amazon and at Kindle, so you do not even have to wait for it to show up at your door. Uh in case because Amazon only had a couple copies as as of this morning. Um But anything else uh about uh Vermouth that you learned from your study of bitters, Ariel?
+
+[43:29] Well, not so much from the bitters, but um in the like V and E section of the UC Davis library, there's a bunch of copies of uh Maider and Amory's like wine production and technology, and that has a pretty good section on Vermouth. Is that when is that from? There's editions dating back to like the 50s and 60s, like through the 80s. It's not public rec you know, there's none of its public record. Can you Google book that thing?
+
+[43:48] I'd have to look into it. Give me the title one more time. Yeah, um well, Maynard Amory, I think it's wine technology and production, but um I could email you an actual like library entry. Sounds good. But I mean, like over uh there might be uh um I know there's a lot of like community colleges around there that teach winemaking, so they could have sure library stuff.
+
+[44:07] Well, I mean he's he's at a winery, I'm sure he's like yeah, yeah. Okay. So anyway, uh the other thing is uh I'm thinking about using liquid nitrogen to chill the glasses and maybe for nitro modeling. I've read your primer on liquid nitrogen, uh we have two uh large 250 liter deweries around the w uh doers around the winery. So uh doer is what you hold liquid nitrogen in.
+
+[44:24] Actually, anything you put that stuff's in to do her, but usually when we say doer, we mean the big doers. They store the nitrogen under pressure roughly, I think 20 pounds of uh PSI, depending on what size doer you have. The larger 240s, uh and I don't know, two fifties. We have two forties. They you know they store it at slightly higher pressure, but anyway, that's where it is.
+
+[44:41] So I will make a phase separator as you show by the way. So the phase separator is uh it's just a muffler. It's like a centered brass muffler that you put on the end of a tube and it lets you take stuff off of the liquid nitrogen tank, otherwise it sprays everywhere. Be aware that on the largers on the two forties that I've used, they don't come out as smoothly as they come out of the one eighties and the one sixties. Uh and you can get a little bit of a choo-choo train chugga chugga chug of resonance on some of those things, and I think it has to do with the pressure it comes out of.
+
+[45:07] Uh so you might be able to adjust the length of the uh extract tube to pull it out of to stop it, but we were having resonance issues on uh on a 240 when we had it, and it was like it was like chugging like a choo-choo train. We've still got the LN out, and it's not as violent as trying to take it out at pressure, but it wasn't uh as efficient as it was out of the 180s and the 160s, just a little no to benefit. Um I know okay, my c my questions are about uh safety in a bar type environment. I know how to work safely in a cellar, but not at a bar. Uh you still use do you still use air pods to hold the liquid nitrogen, or you do you suggest purchasing an insulated doer flask?
+
+[45:40] Uh do you remove the internal dip tube from the airpods, airPods are the coffee things. Uh or can this be used to dispense the uh LN? Seems like the AirPod is not really a closed system, but I'm unsure. If removed, how do you safely dispen uh dispense the LN? Uh does not seem like an AirPod pours very safely.
+
+[45:56] Any other tips? Okay, here's here's what I'm gonna say about this. We don't I don't I don't use AirPods anymore. I used to use AirPods, uh, the coffee ones with the lids on top. Uh and I used to try to use the little uh dispensing unit.
+
+[46:07] They aren't sealed. However, the plastic in them can seize up, you can get condensation, and then I've never had one get in a situation that's unsafe. You can always see that they're venting off, but I've gotten it where they no longer dispense properly. And it's true, those ones with the pour tops are very difficult to get to to close. At the bar, we use carafts, like thermal uh coffee crafts and camping thermoses.
+
+[46:31] We buy them from REI because they have a guarantee. And I walked up to the dude at the counter at REI, I'm like, this sucker's got a guarantee. He said, Yes. I was like, I'm putting liquid nitrogen in it. This thing has a guarantee.
+
+[46:42] Yes. I was like, so so when it breaks, I can bring it back to you? Yes. I was like, okay. So uh that's sweet, right?
+
+[46:49] So anyway, so I have the liquid nitrogen, and uh what we do is we own one at the bar five-liter uh five-liter doer, like legit doer. And then we empty uh, we we fill the five-liter doer for service, bring it back behind the bar, and then use that to fill the thermoses. You don't get that much loss out of a thermos, and in a bar situation, you're using it so fast and so much that it you don't get that much of an advantage out of capping it. Because remember, when it you're not using it, you get a layer of nitrogen vapor above it that provides some insulation, and so you're not getting a huge amount of loss because it's got a very thin uh, you know, it's got a very small, narrow opening at the top, and uh those things pour quite well as opposed to the airpods, which have all that weird nonsense in between the pore spout and you because you're not meant to pour out other than you're meant to push a button and have it dispense. So I would move away from the push-button dispensers and move towards coffee thermoses, things like this.
+
+[47:42] However, throw away anything that allows you to seal it. Let me speak to you again. Let me say this one more time. Throw away, don't just like unless you take it to your house or something like this, do not ever put yourself in a situation where anyone under any circumstances for any reason can make a mistake and screw a sealing lid onto a thermos. I need that I need you to I need you to listen to me on this one.
+
+[48:06] This is uh what caused uh the poor German uh cook in uh in one Germany uh to, you know, years ago to almost die and to lose, I believe he lost like one hand, all of one hand, almost all the rest of his hand, and I believe one of his legs, and he had to be put in a medical, medically induced coma because he brought to his girlfriend's house liquid nitrogen in a sealed thermos. Never, never make it even a remote possibility that that could ever happen, right? No, you're making a bum when you do that. Yeah, yeah. But you know, but the thing is that I've run into this too, and the older I get, the more I you know realize this, especially when I'm working with other people, is that uh there's a difference between knowing how to not make something unsafe yourself and guaranteeing that no one else can make it unsafe, right?
+
+[48:52] And you want to guarantee that nobody out there can seal up that uh that container. Um also I think you know, in light of what happened to the poor person in uh in England, I think whenever you're bringing liquid nitrogen into a bar, you need to do a lot of safety training. And that safety training is one, you know, telling people about the eyes, your eyes, keeping away from the customer, explaining ways in which it, you know, it's showing how it can be safe, showing how things that they think maybe are unsafe, like getting a little bit on your skin is not unsafe, uh at the same time reinforcing all the horrible things that can happen. So, you know, making sure they understand how vitally important it is that liquid nitrogen never, in no cryogen ever be served, including dry ice, ever be served to a customer in its native state. It's very easy to know that all your liquid nitrogen is gone out of your drink before you serve it.
+
+[49:42] If it's smoking, it's it's no good to serve to your to your customer. I mean, it's uh, you know, hammer that stuff home. Uh hammer home that keep keep the cryogens away from the customer, not just in service, but you know, throw the throw the extra extra liquid nitrogen down and behind you. You know, um be careful. Let people know that it's real.
+
+[50:00] Let people know that people have gotten hurt when rules haven't been followed. Let them know uh, you know, let them know read read to them the stories of that of that poor girl who had her stomach removed. Read to them the stories about the German who who you know almost killed himself. Um, you know, follow basic safety rules. Never let them pour it above their heads.
+
+[50:19] Never, you know, you know, make sure that they don't have a situation where they can pour it into their pockets or get it caught inside of their clothing. Just like, you know, reinforce um, you know, read the primer, read other people's primers, reinforce safety like that. The most important thing you can do when you're training new people is to engender in them a healthy respect for the bad things that can happen. Um I mean it just it just it bears repeating, and a lot of times people think, you know, uh it's a gimmick, you shouldn't bring in. Lots of things are dangerous.
+
+[50:48] We're just trained to know they're dangerous. We know knives are dangerous, we know deep fryers are dangerous. You don't necessarily understand how or why liquid nitrogen is uh is dangerous. Um, also if you're dealing in small quantities in a bar, you don't need to get that much into asphyxiation, but you need to make sure a lot of people still they'll bring large amounts of liquid nitrogen into elevators. They'll they'll carry them up stairwells, they'll do all sorts of like awful, awful things with liquid nitrogen that most of the time won't get you killed, but then there's that time when it will.
+
+[51:15] You know? Uh so just look into it. Is that is that what do you think? Is that good? Good?
+
+[51:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh okay. So uh interesting question in. Got a really interesting one. What time is it?
+
+[51:27] Ah, all right, I'm holding. So I got a I got a good question here, and hopefully I can finish it. Mark writes in he was wrote about nanoparticles before. Uh do you know anything about nanoparticles, by the way? I don't know anything about it.
+
+[51:39] It was brought to my attention the safety of nanoparticles by by Mark recently. I mean, there are some concerns because they can like breach certain barriers, but are they like too large to be dealt with the way that like regular sized particles are by the immune system. Yeah, but it's like but the the messed up thing is is that our ability to produce different ones is outstripped our our our testing of them. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
+
+[51:59] Well, crazy. We've got a few great shows on nanoparticles if you search our archives. Uh Katie Kiefer on straight no chaser has done quite a few episodes. Does she enjoy the nanoparticle? I don't know.
+
+[52:12] Yeah, fan or faux. Fan or faux. I think you're a fan of the potential. All right. So anyway, thanks for fueling my question.
+
+[52:19] This is Mark Reddingham. Thanks for fielding my question on nanoparticles. I now have a question that's a bit more technical. I like that it's more technical than nanoparticles. Uh I've been working on making Vietnamese rice noodles using the basic recipe in Charles Fan's book, also available on Epicurious.com.
+
+[52:32] Charles Fan, the uh the chef at slanted uh slanted door in uh right, that's the name of his restaurant, right? In uh D. Yeah, in the ferry building in San Francisco. Yeah, San Francisco. Um I've made some delicious batches for snacking and staff meal, but they are too short and stick to each other too much to actually serve.
+
+[52:49] After experimenting for a few days, I think that the dough is fine, but the potato rice that I'm using back to potato ricers, and by the way, this like after I had the nightmare I read about this. How awful is that? Uh, isn't strong enough tool for a harder dough like this and uh doesn't make it look pretty. Do you have any suggestions about hacking a potato ricer to get more force or a different kind of tool that could do the same thing or any general advice about making this kind of noodle? Thanks, Mark.
+
+[53:14] Okay. So, first of all, to get an idea of what this looks like, uh I went to uh Andrea and Wynn's website, uh Vietworld Kitchen.com uh to look, she reviewed uh fans' recipe and also had a video of doing it. She also has what looks like a really cool cookbook that I don't have called Asian Tofu that I now think I need to buy because you know I all of my tofu stuff comes from like the million years old shirtleaf uh you know book on tofu and miso. I told you I called that guy one day, right? Really?
+
+[53:42] Yeah, he picked up the phone. I was like, Can you make can you make tofu from Edam? He's like, that's a horrible waste of human resources in life. I'm like, oh my god, sorry. But uh anyway, so I'm I'm anxious to uh eventually what I'm gonna when I'm allowed to buy books again.
+
+[53:56] When I move my apartment, I'm gonna be allowed to buy books again, and I'm gonna I'll buy that book. Okay. Um anyway, she has a video of it, and the dough is indeed stiff. Uh look, I think all of these noodles and many noodle tricks in general, and also dragon's beard uh and all this are really just exercises in uh in in water control, right? So like adding a little bit more water can make a huge change in the reality of your dough.
+
+[54:22] And so I would say that you could probably look the way that these doughs are made is that the way this dough is made, for those of you who don't know what the heck we're talking about, is you take rice, uh ground rice in this case, uh, and you and you soak it sometimes up to four days to let it ferment a little bit. And on the blog, they let you they show you different things. You then pour off some of the soaking water and then uh add fresh water, cook it, right? Now you're cooking out a good portion of the starch, right? That's providing the structure for the dough.
+
+[54:49] So when you're using when you have uh a dough that doesn't have its own natural glutens, right, like rice, one of the ways to get structure into it is to cook a portion of the starch before you make the noodles, and that gives you some structure so that it's not just breaking apart and turning into nothing. That's allowing you to form noodles, right? Um another way to do it that you see on if you look on the on the web to make rice noodles is people will pour a thin layer crepe style into a steamer uh with a lot of oil. In fact, I saw a really cool video on it. Um, and see if I can find uh the name of the person that I looked it up, uh, on on uh eat now, cry later, how to make fresh rice noodles.
+
+[55:26] Uh and she paints, she paints oil and builds them up layer by layer in a steamer and then and then peels them apart afterwards so that you don't have to peel off each one individually. And that's pretty cool. So that's one way. But this other technique is the way also you make dunk dumpling wrappers a lot, is you pre-cook some, and also shoe pastry. You pre-cook some of it to give structure, although shoe pastry is different because, well, you're retarding the gluten because you have a lot of fat and uh egg in it, but then you pre-cook it to give it structure.
+
+[55:52] Whatever. So back to where I was. So the the point is is that then you're pre-cooking it, and then you're adding uh he adds tapioca back, but some people don't, they add more rice, but tapioca's gonna give it a springier texture. You control the water level of it, then you extrude it into boiling water and you form the noodle. Uh so you want to be very careful to have enough water.
+
+[56:11] I would add more water so you can get out of a potato ricer, or I would move to a higher tech uh higher force style situation. So KitchenAid now makes a pasta extruding attachment that actually apparently works. It's $150. I used to have their pasta making attachment for the meat grinder, and it was a little bit less than useless. I don't know if you've ever used that one.
+
+[56:30] Yeah, it's useless. I mean, like the reason it's useless, it's it's worse than nothing because it makes you think you can do something, and it's just horrible. But apparently the new one, new one works. But there is a style of noodle in the south of India that they make with rice, and they actually use a really bizarre method where they fully cook dumpling dough. They make the dough, they do the soaking, they grind it wet, make a dough, cook it in a pan, then form it, then boil the dumplings, then take the hot dumplings and extrude them through an extruder, through a noodle extruder.
+
+[57:01] But uh they make uh noodle presses for that that you can get at um Indian stores, um call it Savai, Savai Press. I don't know how you pronounce it, but I think Savai Press. But really interesting stuff there, and I I hadn't known about that. But one thing I did know about is they make something and I'm gonna mispronounce it called a chocolate press. Those are the fried uh Indian fried like doll uh noodles, doll and flour rice, I think rice or whatever, flour noodles that you extrude through an extruder and fry, and they look like uh like a screw, like a cookie press, but like brass and long.
+
+[57:31] And those things would work for this because they have screw pressure in it, so you can screw the sucker down and extrude it out. So I would do that. I would A, try to make uh a looser dough, and I would B try to use one of these screw things that you can get at a at an Indian uh like an Indian shop. Now, that said, uh reading about this, I went ape loony, right? And started doing, and I my entire morning was shot because I was I was looking looking stuff up, and uh I'll give you a couple things.
+
+[57:58] There's a guy, and this is how you find it. You look up my notes are holy crap. What you look up is making rice noodles chonking China, okay? And there's a Google, there's a YouTube, and here's what this guy does. You guys familiar with Oblek?
+
+[58:13] Oblek? Yeah, the like cornstarch water. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like a non-Newtonian fluid is a fluid that doesn't act where where the where you know the the um the viscosity of it changes markedly depending on whether or not it's being agitated, right?
+
+[58:28] Non-Newtonian fluid. So you know a lot of things are what's called shear thinning. So the harder you stir them the uh and the more force you apply to them the more liquid they get which makes sense because you know the things that form a mat you hit them hard enough and the the strands align and all of a sudden it becomes easier to shear through them sheer thinning. Well there are things that the harder you work them the more uh difficult they are an ooblek is one of them and ublek is made out of cornstarch and water and you can go online and see these guys uh there's a that there's a video called uh you know people running on a pool of ooblek and it's yeah it's awesome people running across like literally running across it like walking on water and then stopping and sinking into it and it's like chest deep it's strong it's like quicksand yeah it's strong yeah it's good um but this guy this guy in uh chonking China and I've no idea he made some form of ooblek noodle noodle thing so he has what amounts to just a strainer that he's holding in in his hand right and he scoops out of a bucket handfuls of dough that appear to be a solid scoops them up throws them into the strainer, and then at the bottom, where there's no force on them, they're straining out like a liquid. And he does that a bunch of times until it looks like it's what he wants it, and then he holds the oblek over the water into boiling water and makes noodles that he then cooks for a couple of seconds, scoops out, and then throws them into the thing.
+
+[59:47] I was like, oh my god, hence my notes. No leak holy crap. Holy crap. Uh and you know, further on this, I kept and then I was like, I got back on the noodle thing and I was looking at it. You know, Chef Tom out in California, who's uh with the what currently is the the International Culinary Center out there in uh near San Jose.
+
+[1:00:06] Uh, you know, he did a video on hand pulled noodles, and I went to go look because I got I don't know, I somehow I got back in a hand pulled noodles. Every once in a while I get back, I've never gotten good at it, by the way. But I've noticed there's two varieties of the hand pulled noodles. So most of the times like when it's attempted in English speaking uh posts on the internet, the hand pulled noodle style is one where the first step is to completely destroy, completely obliterate the gluten structure by overneating the hell out of it, right? And if you want to know about this, by the way, it's another thing I do yourself a favor.
+
+[1:00:34] If you're at all interested in how uh wheat scientists measure doughs, and you don't have access to like the expensive books, and you don't want to go like you know, try to like go on Google Books and read all of Hosney's stuff by like pasting and cutting between all of uh the different books, like you know, serial science and all that. Go go look at HTTP W.org. And wheatflowerbook.org has all of the things of how wheat is rated by uh cereal chemists when it comes in and how things are done. And for instance, they say a sample of wheat is considered infested if it contains, and this is this is strikes me as very odd, right? A sample of wheat is infested if it contains one, two or more live weevils, right?
+
+[1:01:18] Two, one live weevil and one other live insect injuries injurious to stored grain, right? Or three, two or more live insects who are injurious to stored grain other than live weevils. That's dumb. Any two insects, they don't care. They don't care.
+
+[1:01:34] They're like, it can be two weevils or a weevil and another insect or two insects. What's the sample size for that? Like per kilo? I don't know. Is is a weevil, maybe maybe a weevil's not an insect.
+
+[1:01:46] Maybe it's technically something else. I don't know, maybe. It's not an insect. I mean, I know it's a it's a bug. Yeah, it's a bug.
+
+[1:01:52] Yeah, it's a bug, but maybe it's not actually like an insect from a technical standpoint. So that's why they have to. Eight legs or something. They should put one thing would have been sufficient. Any combination of two or more live insect or weeviloid things.
+
+[1:02:05] It it counts as infested. So here's another one. Definition of light smutty wheat. Wheat in a 250 gram portion that has an unmistakable odor of smut or which contains smut balls, portions of smut balls or spores of smut. In excess of a quantity equal to five smut balls, but not an excess of quantity equal to 30 smut balls of average size.
+
+[1:02:25] Is light smutty wheat. I think average size smut ball is going to be my next band name. Right? Right? Check this out.
+
+[1:02:31] Check this out. Here's one more for you from this awesome, awesome book. At the end of the book, there are standards from the American Association of Cereal Serial Chemists of recipes with which to test flowers. So like when they're like, they have like the standard sugar snap uh sugar snap cookie. They have ginger or whatever.
+
+[1:02:47] They have like the standard, and they also have something called the Asian noodle texture test. And it literally is like you line up cooked noodles and they have a plastic tooth that pushes down into it, right? And a sample of five noodle strands are randomly selected into cut into seven centimeter pieces. The five noodle pieces are laid side by side on the TX TA dot XT2 textured analyzer instrument platform. A two-bite compression test is performed using a special plastic tooth.
+
+[1:03:14] Compression is performed to 70% of noodle thickness and then released and then redone again. And it's like literally they have an Asian noodle texture test. This document is and and why it's important. Noodle texture is an important quality characteristic. Oh really?
+
+[1:03:29] I I had no concept. This book is available for free people. This is free. Like this is like this is what um I'm being told that I have to leave. Hold on a second.
+
+[1:03:39] Before I before I before I uh leave, so go check out the wheat uh wheat flower book.org. Uh and I found that because I had to look up, you know, they have like one of the one of the tests they use is they make uh they make a disc of dough and they inflate a bubble into it to see how it extends, right? It's called an alveolograph. Like alveolar in your lungs. Yeah.
+
+[1:03:57] And so I read that in the uh in uh Paula Paula Figoni's book, How uh Baking Works, Exploring the Fundamentals of Baking Science, which I hear is really good, but I don't own a hard copy of. Another one that I need to go buy a copy of. Uh anywho, so the the the end of the story is uh that I was looking up uh I've as usual, it all ends up back in hand pulled noodles. And I was noticing that the because hand pulled noodles are are interesting because you have they have to pull, they have to have extraordinarily long extension, right, without snapping. So you would think very low, low gluten or you know, a weak gluten flour so that they won't snap back, right?
+
+[1:04:32] Right? Yeah, yeah. So it seems to me that there's two main uh ways that it's done. So if you look at like the ones that are done in English, they put things typically in a mixer and they just destroy the gluten, obliterate it, wipe it out, the same way that you do for beaten biscuits, which is something that I can make properly, right? Gluten is just obliterated by over mixing.
+
+[1:04:48] Then you have the ones and and those ones, when you're looking at them hand pulling the noodles, they pull slowly and but you know, quick, you know, not slowly, but like kind of evenly, and they just pull it across, and you can see that the noodles like almost want to pull themselves in into noodle shape, right? And then you look at the ones with no speaking that are done most of the time in Asia, uh, where it's just some guy on the street doing it. And those guys have an entirely different technique. Like the end section of their kneading, right? First they do the tearing and ripping and destroying it, and you can tell that they're they're putting water in, they're doing water control.
+
+[1:05:23] Same way as SOBA, let's like proper soba manufacture, all about water control. Well, back to water control. And you can see them when they get the texture right, but then their final kneading process is a stretching, aligning, and rolling, where they're actually looks like they're aligning. And after they start doing that, they never again go cross or rotate. They're always just you know, just torsion and stretch back, torsion stretch, and then cut off little pieces, and they're always going in the same thing.
+
+[1:05:47] And those guys, right? Those guys, when they're pulling the noodles, it's like slap a rap dapa, slap that, that and they're pulling hard, right? And they're slapping the noodle around, which means that that sucker must have more structure. Now, the ones that I've tried to learn from have always been the Western style ones, and those are premised on the fact that there's no internal structure, one way or the other. They just beat the crap out of them.
+
+[1:06:09] And I've always found that most of those noodles don't have a lot of bite. My question is to everyone out there who's tried it is there a fundamental and qualitative difference between the slap a wrap dap and the beat the hell out of hand pulled noodles? I have no idea. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:06:35] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:03] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Users coming to you live from Alberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig Brooklyn. Joining you in the studio with, as always, Mustafa the Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, and special guests. First, of course, Piper. Piper from Booker and Dags Lab High Piper.
+
+[1:19] Hi. How are you doing? And Mark Ladner from Del Fosto! Good afternoon, Dave. How are you doing?
+
+[1:27] I'm doing great. How are you? Alright, I'm gonna make you actually say stuff on air. Dave, you want to get close to the mic there? Who?
+
+[1:33] Dave. Well, I was told not to yell into the mic by one of our listeners. You gotta get closer. I was told not to yell into the I was told not to yell into the mic by one of our listeners. Alright.
+
+[1:43] So, uh So first and foremost, I'm gonna make uh Mark. Oh, by the way. Call in your questions to any of us, including Mark, for all of your Mark Ladner style questions. Two 27184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:57] Mark, uh, you're ostensibly here to uh to uh give plugs for your uh barbecue thing you're doing here, right? Why don't you talk about it for a second? Yeah, I came to uh review with Erin and Patrick some of the logistics for this uh small get-together we're having on Saturday morning at uh the Heritage Warehouse, which is on this same block. So uh yeah, I'm gonna head over there afterwards and check on my grill, make sure everything's are there stu uh are there stuff that's gonna come, you're gonna bring your kids, Dave? Uh what when is it?
+
+[2:27] Uh Saturday evening. This Saturday evening? I would I would love to. I would love to, but someone's gonna have to come take my place because I will be flying to Senegal. Okay.
+
+[2:36] Oh wow. Yeah. Um I'm taking a uh trip uh that uh is being organized by uh our good buddy from uh you know the Grand Descartes restaurant, Pierre Tiam, who has an excellent Senegalese cookbook called Yolele. Uh and you might have seen him on the Iron Chief. He was on the Iron Chief at one point.
+
+[2:51] Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Have you uh you're expecting a pretty exotic experience out there? Well, I mean, uh the whole point of these trips, it's supposed to be a series of trips uh that chefs are taking, you know, American chefs are taking to Africa with a two with a two-part, a two-pronged kind of goal.
+
+[3:08] One, we get to steal ideas and ingredients and bring th bring them back here, right? Uh and two, uh people over there, uh the the hope is is that locally they'll say, Oh, when people come visit our country, what they really want to see is authentic real deal stuff. They don't want to see uh some sort of BS fake French or some sort of you know Western garbage that there's that there's inherent value in doing um you know very good presentations of uh local ingredients. Indigenous cultures. Yeah, because you know, and it's the same thing in you know most places when you know when I know you're the same way.
+
+[3:43] When you travel, you you know, what do you got good here? Like what is yeah, because uh, you know, you know, you know you know you've been to the you know, you've been to Italy, you've been to France, you know what's good there. So if you're going to um you know, if you're going to Senegal, you don't want some interpretation McDonald's. Yeah. Well, uh it's interesting.
+
+[4:04] I spoke to a good f a good friend of all of us actually, uh, who's like whenever he travels, he won he goes to local McDonald's to see how they're different from American McDonald's. Interesting. Yeah, it's kinda strange though. Pretty strange. Yeah, pretty strange.
+
+[4:15] Uh so anyway, so that's the that's the goal of that. And so someone will have to take my place at the barbecue, but can they still purchase the tickets at the Eventbrite? Absolutely. Does anyone know the uh the this the site to go to? Jack does.
+
+[4:27] Jack? The site is Italian Barbecue.eventbrite.com. I'm not gonna say that if you don't go, you're worthless and stupid, but I wouldn't be possible. Oh, I'll say that. It's it's yeah.
+
+[4:40] Yeah. What are you gonna be making there? Uh some sticks. We're making some spiadini. Yeah?
+
+[4:46] Made from uh heritage uh USA's very own red wattle pork shoulder. Red wattle, huh? It's gonna be delish. Has the price of red wattle come down at all or is it still absurdly? I don't believe so.
+
+[4:57] Uh it's pretty absurdly expensive. Not as expensive as the uh uh you know what's my favorite word is a pig related word is mangallista. That stuff's I've I've never cooked with it. You ever cooked with the mangalista? Yeah, it's pretty strange.
+
+[5:08] Is it worthwhile? Yeah, it is, it's good. Worth the money? Um if you like pork. Do you like pork, Dave?
+
+[5:15] Uh I do. I do. I do enjoy I do enjoy the pork every night. Speaking of pork, who's who's our who's our sponsor today's someone like that's underground meats. From Mad Town?
+
+[5:23] Madison, Wisconsin. Have you had their product? I have yet to have their product. I would like to try their product to see whether it is as delicious as I hope it is. I believe there'll be uh something sent out.
+
+[5:31] Beautiful show. You know what I have friend of cooking issues, listener of cooking issues. So nice. I well well I uh I am excited to try it. You know what I had last night from pork, pork, pork related.
+
+[5:41] You know the Salamaria Belesi guys? They're excellent uh, you know, Salumi curing uh outfit here in uh New York and New Jersey. Good people. And have taught a lot of people a lot of uh you know, a lot of people who uh are known for their curing now in this area spent a lot of time with the guys at Salamaria Belacy um kind of learning their techniques. And what they did that was very interesting way back in the day was instead of changing their procedures to meet um to meet food code, they hired and paid for people to prove that their techniques were safe from a uh food from a food, you know, soup food safety standpoint.
+
+[6:17] It's true and absolutely fascinating. I think they're the only people that have actually gotten away with that. Yeah, I mean they spent I think a lot of money, you know. Uh but they you know the their point uh and I was hanging out with Paul from there yesterday, and the point that they made years ago when I first met them was well I you know I don't I if I'm not gonna do it the way I want to do it, I just I don't want to do it. So, you know, let's see whether we can.
+
+[6:39] And they did. Yeah, and I don't know anyone else who I don't know anyone else who does that, but they had they had the most delicious wild boar supersata that I had yesterday. Of course, I'm from the East, so I call it super sot. But anyway, but like it was ridiculously good. And they apparently they have these wild herds in Texas that they let roam free and then right before slaughter they herd them together and like you know, sh uh slaughter them, I guess shoot them in the head.
+
+[7:01] So they it's all wild fed, but USDA. Really good. Do you have that product yet? I have not. I have not.
+
+[7:08] Sounds good to look out for it. You want that, right? Okay. Love board. All right, now uh to uh two some questions we have.
+
+[7:13] Okay. Uh Mark writes, not this mark, not Mark Ladner, the mark from the noodle questions uh last week. Writes in, thanks for discussing my rice noodle predicament. I've tried adding more water because I told him maybe add more water. He if you remember or if you listened or whatever, he was trying to make uh a rice noodle.
+
+[7:26] It's made from uh partially um cooked out hydrated rice starch mixed with uh more rice starch and water and uh pressed through uh you know through uh a potato ricer uh into boiling water to make noodles. And the reason you pre-boil part of the starch is because otherwise, you know, rice starch doesn't really hold together very well if it's just rice starch and water, and it'll fly apart on you. So uh so anyway, so uh that I told them more water is what I told him. Uh or uh more ball or press. Those are the two choices I gave.
+
+[7:55] More water, more baller. Okay. Uh I've tried adding more water, but the texture of the final noodles compromised. I'm definitely going to try the Indian noodle press thing you mentioned. I can't see how that wouldn't work because the they they in India they make these noodles uh from cooked out starch and that they're really stiff, and so they need really hardcore presses to press the stuff out.
+
+[8:11] Uh hey, have you ever tried Mark the uh that uh KitchenAid, the the new powered extruder that fits on the kitchen aid? I have not. I haven't seen it. Yeah, I haven't I hadn't I I read about it last for last week, but I've never never seen it. You have one of the really nice new pasta, the not the arcobolino, you have the other one or you have the arcobolino?
+
+[8:28] No. The other one? Uh I'm not sure of the name right now. I think it's uh italgy. Yep, and you enjoy it, correct?
+
+[8:34] Um yeah, it's good. We don't do a lot of extrusion. Most of our stuff is handmade, but uh I've seen Wiley use a pretty interesting extruder that's sort of like a cocking gun. Yeah, the one he used to use for the shrimp noodles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:46] Yeah, yeah. That one's pretty cool. Yeah. Um takes a lot of torque, though. I mean, I don't know how you would do it with a racer.
+
+[8:52] Yeah, I mean, like the ricers I have I have a a good stainless steel ricer, but I also had a plastic ricer, and I know that I would break it. I know I would break it. You would. I mean, I know me. I would break it.
+
+[8:59] Uh okay, back to the question. Um concerning the methods of hand pulling noodles that I was talking about, uh, that me, Dave was talking about, in my limit because uh good basically when you would look on the hand pulled noodles, the question is is that there's some guys, and it's usually the people who are attempting to mimic uh you know Asian recipes from an American standpoint, their pulling style on the hand pulled noodles is uh it shows that the dough is so slack that if they pulled overly hard at all, it would just fly apart into nothingness. And then occasionally you will see those guys pull the stuff and the noodle strands will break and fall into nothingness. Whereas if you look at at the actual guys doing it in Asia, they're thwap adap a lap adaping the stuff around, and it looks like it has a lot more resilience to it. And then from my perspective, uh a dough that has more resilience in it, if it could be pulled, is gonna have better tooth.
+
+[9:46] I mean, it's just obvious to me that it's gonna have more tooth if it's got more structure. When you guess, yeah, I don't know how where is the introduction of that alkali water stuff that they use. Is that the real secret ingredient? Well, so the lot of people are using they use alkali water in uh or they well, they use baking soda. Most American guys use baking soda and uh when they're doing it, and they add some, and that should so when you add it to a regular noodle, not one of the kind of overprocessed hand pulled noodles, but a regular noodle, it's gonna strengthen the gluten and also uh and depending on the cultivar uh uh wheat, you use uh you increase the yellowness.
+
+[10:19] So you get the yellow alkaline noodles that have the snap to it, right? But a hand pulled noodle is never gonna have that kind of bite to it because in order to pull it, if it had that kind of bite to it, it wouldn't pull right. You know what I mean? So it's you know, uh when you're making the hand pulled noodles, you have to get to a point where the uh you know where um you know it's not so uh elastic it's gonna break short, but that it pulls. You want the extensibility, but not necessarily the above the pull back elasticity.
+
+[10:44] Have you ever uh successfully attempted this yourself? No. No. I mean I've I've never even known anyone that's tried. No, I mean I've tried it.
+
+[10:52] I've gotten stuff that like I was like, oh, I can see where this might work, but I've never been like, oh, I'm good at this. Or oh, I would serve this to my friends or family. You know, and that uh you know, uh and so uh but you know, the guy Chef Tom, anyway, so let me finish the what it said. So uh concerning the methods of hand pulling noodles that you were talking about, in my limited experience, the thwacking method is really helpful if your noodle dough has been sitting, which makes sense because the gluten strands would probably rejoin together a little bit, uh form more of a network. I've only used the recipe from Chef Tom, which is the one available on the internet, and I found that if you pull the noodles right out of the mixer bowl like he does in the video, they are easy, but they can tighten up after resting, so a few quick thwacks can help get them back to being pullable.
+
+[11:30] Maybe the resting can help add chew. Thanks again, uh, Mark. I think you're right. I think the resting adds shoe. But you know, the thing is I think like anything else, there's so much more to know.
+
+[11:38] Like the one thing I almost got good at was doing the dragon's beard candy. And even then I sucked compared to the you know, the you know, the the million-year-old dude who's been doing nothing but dragon's beard candy because I don't know, because that's all he does. I don't know. You know, like anything else, like there's the techniques, the more you learn about them, the more you know that you don't that you're not really good at what you're doing and that you're a farce. You know, what do you say?
+
+[11:59] I agree. Uh but on the Ublek noodles I was talking about, if you remember this this guy who saw this video, this insane video where the person with ooblek is something that like acts like a solid, uh, but then when you're hitting it, but then when you're not hitting it, you know, it drains through a uh it it turns to a liquid. And so there's videos of guys, cornstarch and water is the most famous one you can make, just mix cornstarch and water, but and these guys running across a pool of cornstarch and water and then stopping and sinking all the way up to their chest in this pool of cornstarch and water. Uh and then we say, Well, how the hell do you make these ubleck noodles? And uh Eating Asia said it's uh they're actually not rice, which is what we thought last week, they're sweet potato, and Paul Adams has made a proper ooblek noodle.
+
+[12:36] And so you go on my uh my my Twitter there, cooking issues, he made it with five percent pre-cooked sweet potato starch, uh, balance uncooked with water and alum. I still don't know what the alum does. But anyway, so enough with the enough with the updates on the noodles, right? Good? Okay.
+
+[12:51] Uh Ben writes in on miso and beans. Uh Ben says, big fan of the show. Uh, actually became a heritage uh radio member at the low cost of about 50 cents per cooking issues episode. Thanks, Ben. Amortized over all of our episodes?
+
+[13:04] That's that's changed, dude. Yeah. And we've done a lot of these dang things. Anyway, two unr unrelated questions. I saw Dave Chang on Mind of a Chef.
+
+[13:12] This have you ever seen Mind of a Chef? I have not. I have not. Have you seen it? I don't really, I don't I don't get I get PBS now, but I well I and I went to go look at it online, but uh PBS took it off because they're publicly funded and so they wouldn't have it streaming.
+
+[13:24] I don't understand that. Does that make any damn sense? No. Makes no damn sense. Okay.
+
+[13:29] I saw Dave Chang on Mind of a Chef discussing the pitiful quality of American miso. Is there any way to make miso in a home environment? And could you achieve the superior quality to what's available in the store that way? Granting it may take a year. Failing that, any New York City or mail order sources of quality miso.
+
+[13:44] Now look, you know, uh Dave is uh occasionally um you know liable to make some hyperbolic statements. In fact, there is you know, you can get some delicious miso here in the in the US, and you can get some crap miso here in the US. Most Americans, when they go buy miso, uh I mean, actually, Nastasha, Mark, and I were all in Japan about a year ago. We had some pre- I had some pretty good meat. Did you have any good miso when you were over there?
+
+[14:08] I had some amazing miso. I had uh the guy who is the head of uh purchasing from Park Hyatt bought uh bought me some Hacho Miso, which it is very hard to get really good hacho miso here. You mean I don't never seen it available. I've seen really bad versions of Hacho Miso here that I guess weren't treated well. And uh Hachomiso is one that's aged for an extremely long time.
+
+[14:26] It's made uh exclusively of soy beans and it's uh very dark and kind of brooding flavors like salt and coffee and all sorts of really awesome stuff, and the real the real good stuff is just light years beyond the you know the crappy version that is uh that I've had here in the US. However, uh there are extremely high quality misos that are brought in. Most misos, most people like the lighter misos, or they they they get hooked on the lighter misos, like the Shiro Misos and things like that. And most of those are done with very short fermentation times, and then they have to dope them up with things to stop them, the stop them from growing in the package and blowing off. And so those can taste not so great, right?
+
+[15:06] But any major city that has a decent uh Japanese population, in New York being one of them, I'm sure San Francisco or any any, you know, is this go to any one of those Japanese places and they have on hand 20 20 different misos, some of which are gonna suck, and some of which are gonna be good. And now not being able to read anything in Japanese and not being able to communicate with a lot of people that are selling me the stuff, you know, even though they actually all speak they all speak English in the stores here and but I still for some reason can't communicate with them at Sunshine Mart. Can you you have this problem, Mark? Everybody else. I don't know shit about miso dave.
+
+[15:42] Anyway, so but but you've been to Sunshine Mart. I have. Yeah. Uh see you know what I'm talking about. Like they speak English fine, but still they don't communicate with me.
+
+[15:51] I don't understand it. Anyway, uh Piper, you ever done this? Nah, you don't care. Okay. So anyway, so because you're trying to when I walk into a store, here's what I want to know.
+
+[16:02] You have 30 different things. I don't want to fool around. I don't have the time. I can't even type this stuff into a search engine. Just tell me what the good stuff is.
+
+[16:09] Just point out the good stuff, right? And even though I know it's a very nuanced question, like still, like if someone walked in and they and and you know, I had a bunch of different price ranges of things, and I said, why is this thing cost more? They would have some sort of explanation. Anyway, so I end up just buying like, you know, a couple of the higher priced ones and and maybe one of the crappier ones to see what the difference is taken home. But there are some very, very good misos available here.
+
+[16:34] But you can make your own. If you want to, but uh this said, Miso is there's a lot of steps in Miso, and anything when there's a lot of steps, uh, even though you can do it yourself, there's a lot of room for not being as good as the people who are actually very, very good at it. Uh it's the same way that you can bake bread at home, but most of us, unless we don't, unless we devote a lot of time to it, aren't going to make bread as good as the best bread makers that we can go visit. But if you want to make your own, you should well, first of all, you should probably own at any rate uh Sandor Katz's book, The Art of Fermentation. He has a small section on Miso, and then he he actually directs you to the kind of still, you know, I think almost two decades or more later, like Grand Tome on Miso by uh William Shirtliff and uh Kiko uh Oyagi, which is the book of Miso.
+
+[17:17] The same people that brought you the book of Tofu. I've talked about these guys on the air a bunch of times. The tofu book, I think I told you I called him and he was like, he took called me a bad person for trying to make tofu out of vetamame. He said I was like a he actually said I think that I was a bad human being. Uh and um anyway.
+
+[17:33] Uh he uh, you know, his book on tofu, I think has been superseded with more modern books, but I think his Miso book is still the uh his and her miso book is still the the one to get. Uh beware that they have abridged small paperback versions of the book of tofu and the book of miso and they've been hacked up and then re glued into a paperback form and to me that was almost unreadable. Get the big version like the larger version whether in paperback or in uh hardcover. And uh you can go to his website it's funny thing it's like both of them it's always him and her but then whenever someone's writing it's always him writing something so I never know you know what I mean anyway. Soy InfoCenter.com and uh good source good source for uh Koji you need Koji to make miso uh and a good source for that is gem cultures www.gemcultures dot com.
+
+[18:21] What do you think? Good enough on Miso? Yeah you know what my favorite misos are? I like barley misos. Barley miso muta misos.
+
+[18:27] You like barley miso piper? Never had it. What the hell is you guys don't like miso? I just don't use it a lot. Why?
+
+[18:34] What what's your hate down on Miso? Nothing. No hate down? I just don't use it. Don't cook with it.
+
+[18:40] It's just delicious. I agree. Yeah. I actually like, you know, a lot of people like Chang hates this, but I like putting miso in things that it doesn't belong in. Like I really like uh I like I like milk based miso soups.
+
+[18:54] I like cream of miso soups. I like I like I mean it's just such an awesome rich flavor but uh you know apparently I'm a bad person. Honestly here's another one. Like okay you ready for like a bunch of people I'm gonna lose a bunch of listeners now. Ready?
+
+[19:07] I like I like with I know that I'm a bad I know it's bad. I know it's stupid and I know that like and and I guess you have to be a certain generation for this to be really offensive to you, but wasabi mashed potatoes taste good. I'm sorry. They do. Like wasabi mashed potatoes, taste freaking good.
+
+[19:24] Now, you know, okay I I said it. I'm a bad bad man and it's like incredibly trite and uh, you know, I shouldn't like them, but they don't taste Christmas heretic. Yeah, right? But they don't taste bad. Do they taste bad?
+
+[19:37] I'm not gonna make Mark comment because you know he's professional and this is they don't taste bad. How about this? What about mustard and mashed potatoes? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Oh my god.
+
+[19:47] Got a caller. I got I got you uh caller, you're on the air. Hopefully it's not about the wasabi. It's not about wasabi. Hi guys.
+
+[19:55] Um I'm calling because I have a bunch of delicious leftover duck fat from uh duck roast that I did. Um and I'm interested in a sweet application for it. So I was just wondering if I could substitute it one for one for butter. And whether you have any um awesome recommendations of something that would be as particularly delicious in a sweet duck fat pastry kind of a thing. Hmm.
+
+[20:21] Mark, what do you think? You got anything? Yeah, I think it's I think it's awesome. Make a pie. Yeah, uh pie was the first thing that came into my head.
+
+[20:30] Lampanata or some penzotti or something like that. Yeah, I mean uh Pensaroti. It's gonna be uh it's gonna be flaky. A little softer than it's gonna be a little softer than uh lard, right? But any any sweet that you would add lard?
+
+[20:43] I mean, like there's no I've never made a better pie crust than a lard based crust, right, Mark? Never. Crisco. Well that's illegal though. Yeah, but I like uh the flavor of lard better than the flavor of Crisco though.
+
+[20:53] That's true. Yeah, I mean I'm not I'm not so I like I don't really care whether it's the flakiest thing in the world as long as the taste is good. Are you like a huge flake man? No, not necessarily. But flavor all the way.
+
+[21:04] Have you done a uh a pie crust with with duck fat or ever? I'm just assuming it would be good. I have not. I assume it would be good. But here's the thing.
+
+[21:10] You're making fun with mass. That's all right. I wouldn't want the sweet mashed potatoes. But here, check this out. Uh, one thing I'd be aware of is when you're making pie crust, you know how everyone says your butter has to be uh like exactly the right temperature?
+
+[21:25] I find that that's kind of like crap that you can kind of make pie crust with any form of butter and any form of crisco. And in fact, Steingarden in uh in his first book, you know, has a whole thing where he and Marion Cunningham make pie crust uh and they don't worry about how the temperature of their water or anything like that. But once you move to highly plastic fats that tend to grease out on you, lard being one, and I'm presumably duck fat being another, especially after it's rendered. Duck fat, you're like, oh, it takes forever to render out of the skin, so it must be really resilient. No.
+
+[21:53] Like once it's there, like it softens up quick in your hands when you're working with it. Now chilling your water and making sure that the that the that the fat's exactly in the right plastic range is going to be a lot more critical because when you're making those kinds of things, I guess empanadas not as much, but when you're making like a pie crust, you really don't want to uh melt out too much of the fat into the into the flour because it's just gonna change the consistency. It won't necessarily be bad, but it won't be the same consistency. That's my feeling. Would a uh like a buttercream crossing be out of the question?
+
+[22:23] Oh, I don't know. Sounds good, actually. See, this is good. This is why I like piper around. But like a duck butter cream, uh ducker cream, ducky, ducky cream.
+
+[22:35] I would try doing a I would try maybe s subbing half out to see whether it works. That's what I'm thinking. And then so, like, you know, replace half of the butter with the duck fat. Because Piper, this is why we keep Piper around. Piper has some awesome ideas.
+
+[22:48] He also is the master of puns. If you need a pun, Piper. Yeah, you need to come to Piper for the punch. All over it. I've witnessed this.
+
+[22:53] Do any of these ideas help out at all or no? Absolutely. That was really helpful. I think the half and half is probably the way to go. All right.
+
+[23:01] And freezing it in in thin sheets for laminating. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, there you go. Colder the better. There you go.
+
+[23:09] Bang. All right. Great. And uh, so we're gonna call that one Piper Piper. What are we gonna call that?
+
+[23:14] Just remember Piper. When you make it and you tweet back tweet back to cooking issues saying that it was delicious, just you know, don't forget Piper. Okay, I promise I will. Cool. Thanks a lot.
+
+[23:23] Uh okay, the second question Ben had was what's the deal with kidney beans, red kidney bean toxicity. Uh my understanding is that soaking followed by boiling can deactivate the toxin in kidney beans, which is uh phytohemagglutinin. Uh, but that temperatures below boiling could exacerbate it. I've seen uh Texas, obviously non Texas style, because Texas style chili has no beans in it, right? Although I like beans in the chili.
+
+[23:47] Is my also a bad man because I like beans in my chili? I like beans and chili, Dave. Piper? Beans and chili? Always.
+
+[23:52] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, people who are meat only just need to need to get over. You know, purism of any sort. Like sometimes purism is fun, like at dinner parties to have like uh and we could talk about Colonel Sanders being a purist later because you know he was like kind of the purest of all time, uh insulting his own restaurants. It's stuff's amazing.
+
+[24:08] Anyway, but uh there's no reason to be a uh purist, and beans and meat uh they love each other so much, especially in a in chili. So, yeah. Although I like a meat only chili. Uh I've seen obviously non Texas style chili recipes, they call for beans to be soaked and salted overnight, then simmered on a gentle heat for a couple of hours in a Dutch oven on a stovetop. Is that safe?
+
+[24:26] Kenji Alt's recipe on serious eats is one such example. Okay. So here's the deal. Uh, kidney beans, uh, and uh a lot of other uh beans, uh similar beans, contain in them pH, phytoahemogglutinin, along with other uh what's called anti nutritional factors, right? Some of them are, you know, in undigestible things, some of them are are uh protein uh absorption inhibitors, and some of them are just uh, you know, uh sugars that you can't uh digest, and so they make you uh tootis.
+
+[24:57] Toot. Yeah, flatus. Oh, the piper busting out the flatus. Yeah. Uh it's what makes them the musical fruit.
+
+[25:02] Let's just put it that way. And you know, Booker, my son Booker, has stopped eating beans because Dax told him that they make him fart. He's never had a problem with it. Like Booker's never been running around the house tooting out with beans, and yet the idea that it might happen now is turn them off of beans until he says, Daddy, you need to you need to have a way to guarantee that they won't make me toot. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't do that.
+
+[25:21] I can't guarantee. Well, he yeah, he's not a subway tutor. I h I hate the subway tutor. Not as bad as the airplane tutor. The airplane tutor is the worst.
+
+[25:34] What? Elevator tutor. You want the worst? The crowded bar tutor. Like because you're trying to like enjoy something and like someone like just toots out at the bar.
+
+[25:42] Anyway, uh, okay. So uh if you go on the FDA's uh website and their bad bug book, right, uh they in fact uh uh put out this notion, and if you go on the Wikipedia, of course, like you can trust the Wikipedia necessary, uh, if you go on the Wikipedia, they both uh mention uh the fact that incorrect cooking, and they and they both mention I think uh 85C, cooking it at these kind of simmering temperatures, can increase by some you know order of like five fold the toxicity of of the of pH. And what it is, is it's a form of a lectin, which is a a protein that bonds to uh to polysaccharides. And uh another another style of thing like that is ricin, which you know just got mailed out to some of our politicians, unfortunately, that comes from the castor bean, but that's deadly. PA the PHA is not gonna be deadly, but if you eat too much PHA uh in in the form of a raw or undercooked kidney bean, it's not fun.
+
+[26:37] Like, you know, you got yourself some diarrhoea and some some sickness and some but you're you're not gonna die, I don't think. I don't think so. Probably not. Although don't take my word, don't go out and eat raw rock kitty beans. But uh and and you know, you like I say you can read about it in the clinical complications, but as you say, what's the deal with that?
+
+[26:53] Why would cooking it at a lower temperature make it much more um much more toxic? And then when I went to try and read all the scholarly articles I could get on the subject of deactivating, because it's a big it's a big deal making getting rid of the anti-nutritional factors and things like kidney beans. Uh in fact, I did not see that that was the case. I did not see any situations where uh soaking and low uh simmering actually made it much worse. I think here's my feeling on it, and uh please someone who's a doctor come and tell me why I'm wrong that uh if you were to cook a bean at a temperature that wasn't going to deactivate a lot of the pH A, uh it wouldn't taste cooked.
+
+[27:29] So if the bean doesn't taste cooked, then the bean's not cooked and you probably shouldn't need it. If the bean tastes cooked, it's probably been activated at 85, you know, it's probably been activated uh cooked above a temperature to deactivate to denature the protein to an extent that it's okay. My guess is that uh the person who that whatever study, which I was not able to find, uh, even though the US government puts it out there as a fact that you can make it worse by undercooking it, it's gotta be that uh partially breaking up the bean and then masticating it makes more of the bad stuff that you haven't deactivated yet available to your system. It's gotta be it, right? I mean, I can't think of any other mechanism.
+
+[28:05] Anyone? Anyone? Just cook your kidney beans for Christ's sake. What? A lot of people put beans in the crock pot.
+
+[28:13] You think you'd hear about people getting sick from it? Yeah, you'd think. Well, so another study I read uh called, let's see if I can find the name of the study here. Uh I can't, but it's called like clinical presentation of uh of kidney bean toxicity. And it just came out this year.
+
+[28:29] Uh oh, here it is. Clinical complications of kidney bean, phaseolis vulgaris consumption by uh Sandy Kumar, February 2013, made the interesting point that these toxicity things come up more often in the UK than they come up in the US. Different cultivar, perhaps, that we consume. Another possibility is that aside from actual toxicity due to PHA, there's uh it could be another factor in allergic reactions to uh leguminous things. And maybe there's some other complicating factor, the ones in the UK.
+
+[28:58] I don't know, but the study specifically said there's a higher incidence of problems in the UK. Because in the US, you're never like, man, my cousin, man, in the hospital after that kidney bean. You know what I mean? Does that ever you ever heard of that? No.
+
+[29:10] Never dave. No, it doesn't happen. Okay. I think we should go to a break. Oh, commercial break, come back with cooking issues.
+
+[29:54] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While Underground Meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and Mule Foots.
+
+[30:25] Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org, or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. Oh, great. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Alright, so we have a question in from Mike in Orlando.
+
+[30:46] Says, Dear Dave and Hammer, and little did Mike know that Mark Ladner would be in the studio today to answer this question so that I wouldn't have to give my uh kind of useless information on it, Mark A Gig. Don't assume that's gonna be helpful. Uh I think this one's gonna be good. Uh Dave and Hammer, every weekend at our house, we also have family dinner with my in-laws. I have family dinner, although not usually with my in-laws, although they're always welcome when they're in town.
+
+[31:07] Uh, my wife really loves carbonara. Who doesn't? Love it. It's a good product. Good stuff.
+
+[31:12] Yeah. Uh I'm trying to figure out the best recipe for it. I've heard you and Hammer argue about bacon versus panchetta. I live in Florida. We don't have very good panchetta down here.
+
+[31:23] What do you recommend? Love the show. Thanks for everything. Mike in Orlando. First of all, before I let you recommend, do you believe in the old school where people uh soak and soak and like simmer their American bacon to get rid of the smoke, or is that just ruining the flavor of the pork all over the all over the map?
+
+[31:38] I like the smoke, Dave. Yes! Yes! Yes! Mark Ladner.
+
+[31:45] We're in America, damn it. Oh sweet. Sweet. Sweet. Alright.
+
+[31:52] Well, you know, I really nothing much more I can say about that. Because the fact of the matter is bacon is delicious. But if someone actually wanted to have more of a panchetta experience, do you is there any good mail order source of panchetta or anything? Anything you like here? Perhaps Bilase.
+
+[32:05] Do they mail order? I imagine they would. Right. I mean, uh they they make a top they make top-notch stuff across the board. Um poorly made uh industrial panchetta is absolute garbage.
+
+[32:19] I I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend using it. It's just really salty and smell and smells and tastes of chemicals and stick with some bacon. Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially in something like that, if it doesn't have this smoke in it, the the poor quality of the poor pork's gonna shine through, right?
+
+[32:34] You don't want the poor quality. Well, one of one of the alleged uh stories about um the uh the history of uh uh Cabinara is based off World War II American GI C rations and being powdered egg and some sort of bacon product. Have you ever made it with powdered eggs? I never have. I bet you it's no good.
+
+[33:02] Um powdered eggs? Depend depends on how desperate you are. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, as Colonel Sanders said about the egg McMuffin, I would eat it in an emergency. But uh well, in case I I put some of it up on uh on my Twitter feed last week, but uh we've been reading around here this 1979 interview with the 89-year-old Colonel Sanders, where it's a genius interview.
+
+[33:28] It's in a m in a book, a humor book called Junk Food, and this guy goes to the Colonel Sanders and he brings an egg McMuffin, a filet of fish, a uh Big Mac, a Krispy Kreme uh donut, and then a bunch of, you know, some other some other you know, fast food stuff to him, milkshake and all this, and gets this colonel the colonel's opinion on it, as well as the colonel's opinion on Kentucky Fried Chicken's uh own products, and it is an amazing, an amazing interview. The guy had they had him a crispy cream donut, and the the colonel pulls a gold spoon out of his pocket and just starts nudging all the different foods. And when the guy says, What do you think of the crispy cream? He just sighs and stares at the ceiling. It's like I do not like yeast raised donuts.
+
+[34:09] They turn into balls of dough, don't you know? Anyway, like it's like an amazing, amazing interview. Someday we had to just put the whole of it up on the on the cooking issues website, see what Reb gets sued. Uh anyway, uh okay, so I think we got the we got the panchetta, we got the panchetta nailed down. Okay.
+
+[34:25] You can get bacon that has less smoke in it also if you wanted to, uh, although again, smoke is delicious. Now, here we're on to the tasting portion of the cooking issue show. We've never done this before. We're doing a live taste on the air. What?
+
+[34:37] Pop it over. What? Pop pop. Uh she's saying pop it open piper. Uh so uh John Riper writes in uh Deer Cooking Issues peeps.
+
+[34:47] A few years back, Harold McGee showed that holding olive oil at deep fat frying temperature for five minutes drives off pretty much all its distinctive flavor compounds. Some Italian cookbook authors harumphed at that by some uh Italian cookbook authors uh authors, it's Marcella Hazan. Uh some uh Italian cookbook authors harumphed uh at that and said that the olive oil will indeed impart its flavor when cooking an egg under conditions much milder than Harold tested. Most of us cooking at home use olive oil in the huge gap between those applications. In the initial minute or three, but when the oil is hotter than you'd want it for an egg.
+
+[35:18] Can you give any useful guidelines? Whoa, whoa, shit. I mean, shoot. I saved the cast. Oh, I love you, Piper.
+
+[35:25] Alright, I didn't mean to curse on air. I apologize. We'll get Jack and Joe to bleep that out. I gotta hand it to you. Yeah, but uh what I thought was happening was these like all of these containers that I had like labeled, that the labels were getting mixed about, and none of us would know which containers were which, and then uh the entire thing would be ruined.
+
+[35:41] So I apologize out there in listening land for the for the curse. Um does your oil smell like eggs, Steve. Because there's eggs in it. Oh, okay. Yeah.
+
+[35:49] Oh, good nose though. Uh see, I love that. Um I'm the same way when someone cracks something and they think I'm like, what is that? Blah blah blah. Anyway, okay.
+
+[35:56] Uh okay. Can you give any useful guidelines about how fast olive oil loses its flavor as it heats up and whether those flavors are transferred and retained in the cooked product as the oil loses them? Well, I can't give any hardened fast rules, but I did read Harold McGee's article that you forward to us, which was a New York Times from uh November of 2010. And let me just say something about Harold McGee is that when Harold McGee does something, he usually does it right. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:20] He doesn't mess around. So he sits there and he doesn't make off the cuff statements ever. I mean, never. You know what I mean? Uh and so you should go read his article.
+
+[36:29] He tests a bunch of different seed oils, a bunch of different uh nut oils, and a bunch of different olive oils of varying qualities uh under two different heat regimes, uh, and then takes those oils also to um takes those oils to specialist olive oil tasters and has them taste it to see kind of what happened. And the result is is that in his opinion, most of the actual quality of the olive oil is lost uh fairly quickly during the during during the cooking time. There was a rebuttal uh on Zester Daily by uh Nancy Harlan Jenkins, and you can read it uh on there, it's Fried Egg Rebuttal. Uh and I'll give you a quote, and I have a lot of respect for Martel Hazan, because who doesn't have a lot of respect, but she says something here that really ticks me off. Uh Hazan, who has degrees in natural sciences and biology, immediately rose to the challenge, Perald McGee's challenge.
+
+[37:15] Uh she seemed to have a great uh she seemed to heave a great sigh in her Facebook page. It was discouraging once again to see a scientist writing about cooking as a scientist, she wrote. You can only make sense about cooking if you write as a cook. Now I absolutely hate when people say, especially about McGee, that he is just a scientist in a lab thinking about McGee is a lover of all food eating, gussetory experiences, and he doesn't sit around like I hate the majority also of food science where things are reduced to meaningless uh you know quantities, and you don't really get a feel for what actual cooking is like by reading it or or or the studies that people do don't actually have a lot of uh implications for real-world cooking. McGee is not like that.
+
+[38:03] McGee is not a scientist in a laboratory doing stuff. McGee is someone who, and if you read his original book, The Curious Cook, it fantastically shows you, like if you want to know what's in McGee's mind and how McGee works, uh, read a curious cook. It's out of print, but it's easy to get. And what he does is is he notices something in a kitchen or someone tells him something and sparks an idea in his brain, and he runs it into the ground and he runs tests using his mind and his mouth. He's not, he i like I know what it's like to talk to scientists who uh poo-poo the real world and and actual experience.
+
+[38:37] McGee is not that. So I uh I bristle at any implication that that is what McGee is doing in the article, because that's just wrong. Now, what she does say is that anyone that's cooked and and quotes someone that McGee knows but that wasn't in the olive oil tasting, that everybody knows that if you cook an egg in uh a good olive oil, it's better than if you cook it in not good olive oil. So what I have for these guys to test here, I have uh the same oil under three different procedures, and I want you to smell them and you know tell me about the different oils. And then I have one egg cooked in uh in an olive oil and one egg cooked in a uh well I didn't have I didn't have any non-olive oil in my house actually.
+
+[39:17] So the only thing I had was Pam. So I put an extra amount of gross kind of Pam in the because I use it for my waffle maker. Uh a Pam in the and fried an egg and Pam. Yeah. So why don't you guys first let's go for the oils.
+
+[39:30] So why don't you pass pass these around here? Which one is I give let me read the little lid because it doesn't. That one says S L O O. All right. So what are your what are your thoughts on the S L O O?
+
+[39:46] Mark. It smells very vegetable. Yeah. Yeah? It smells like shit, Dave.
+
+[39:57] Stuff. Smells like stuff. Smells like uh fish, actually. Yeah, that was. Which one which one is that one?
+
+[40:01] That uh that's E V. That's that labeled E V O Oright. And then uh the last one. Pass this around. Here, here you go.
+
+[40:13] Mark smelling the the last one. Labeled a rufo, R-U-F-O. This smells like pure olive oil. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:23] Uh so you taste them, and so there's a so what would you say about the the that like uh give give Mark the middle one again? Piper, you taste it. This is the strongest one. Yeah. This feels just tastes raw.
+
+[40:36] Yeah. And I'm not, yeah, well, no, taste the other one, the middle one. Sorry that you can't see what we're tasting here, but it it'll become apparent when we talk about it in a minute. This is the SL S L O O. No, not that one he said smelled like fish.
+
+[40:51] Alright, so while he's tasting that, uh I did three different regimes. One of the one of the oils is a you know, an actual one that I would use uh that I actually use to eat on things raw. Uh it's a it's you know, it's an unfiltered olive oil from Sicily, and it's a combination of three of my favorite olives, Nochelara, Debellici, Cherisola, and Biancolilla. Uh comes from a guy named Golufo in the south of uh Sicily, and I've been buying his oil for years, and I enjoy it. Uh and that one was labeled uh Rufo, raw unfiltered uh oil, right?
+
+[41:25] Uh the one labeled E V O O that uh Mark said smelled like fish stands for uh extra violent overcooked oil. And that's deep frying conditions. So I took it up to just about the smoke point and and then fried a couple cubes of bread in it, uh, and then uh strained it out through a coffee filter, and uh uh to me, all of its all of its olive oilness is pretty much been wiped away. It just tastes, it smells like like oil that's been slightly abused. Yeah, right.
+
+[41:59] Uh there's no debris at all though, which is surprising. And then and then the the middle one, I sauteed some lettuce in very quickly just to get just to give uh an idea. And that one to me, uh, I mean, it it's not great, but it does maintain some oliveness to it. It does. It does.
+
+[42:17] It's about half. Yeah. Yeah, and that was that you know, that's if you're doing a very quick kind of a saute and it maintains it. And then I have two eggs here. See whether you can see whether you get any olive oilness out of the eggs.
+
+[42:29] We have a fork here. By eating them. That's why there's a fork present. So anyway, so we r ran the test here, and I think you know, McGee is pretty much right. Two things are happening when you overheat an oil.
+
+[42:41] You're damaging the oil and you're giving the off smells, which is where the fish stuff is coming from, and you are driving off a lot of the a lot of the volatils. You get any much of a difference between specifically she she said fry an egg. So I fried an egg, and uh, I used what I always did is I heat up a cast iron skillet till that till it's you know, till when I slap the till when I slap the surface of the skillet with my palm, it feels like it's the right temperature to cook an egg. I then added uh small quantity of oil, crack the egg into it, and then but you know, before it fully sets, I turn the pan off and let the heat carry through the pan. That's my typical fry egg uh uh technique.
+
+[43:18] If I was to guess, I would say this one had the oil. Is that the one that had the pre-broken egg uh yolk? Yeah. That's the one that had pan. So is it just because the pan was bad or because the olive oil was good?
+
+[43:30] It just had more flavor in general. Yeah. I I don't think that there was um any uh noticeable advantage one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[43:41] All right. Well, there you have it. Our first on air test of a listener question on the cooking issues. Here's a here's a related question regarding that. So when I make my tomato sauce, I leave a lot of the oil that I cook the garlic in.
+
+[43:57] Would it be better to fry garlic separately and then add cold oil and heat it up just to two twelve? I don't know. I usually when I'm doing garlic I do two step. I do garlic and then I always add fresh oil back to it. And so do I.
+
+[44:12] Yeah. I think it's actually better to start with a neutral oil and finish with a like save your money for a good extravagant olive oil. Use that to finish and then just do the initial cook in like a grapeseed or a canola. Yeah I mean look at my house what I have is I have two three liter containers of olive oil. One that is roughly three times the cost of the other one and they're I buy the tins because I use a lot of olive oil and because they have no there they have zero light transmission so they don't go bad very quickly in the tins.
+
+[44:44] And um I don't stock a lot of different um cooking oils because if I'm gonna fry I deep fry and my deep fryer has you know 30 you know 30 or 40 pounds of oil in it so I'm not gonna buy olive oil for that because that's crazy. What do you use? I I use I usually use like a neutral vegetable. I've tried a bunch of different ones. I I I like you know I I used to use a lot of corn but corn has such a corn flavor that I got so sick of it I don't like using corn oil anymore unless I'm frying tortillas in which case it doesn't matter.
+
+[45:12] Um but the um but I don't use excessive amounts and so I'd rather the my cheaper olive oil is one that I'm willing to eat. I'm willing to eat it raw if I had to uh but it's you know it's not breaking the bank and I use little amounts of it when I'm cooking so it's easier for me to keep it around. If I was going to do that professionally, I would have a bunch of neutral oils around because it would be a big cost saver if I was doing it all the time. But at home, you know, the space is more important to me for the amount that I, you know, amount that I'm using. It doesn't break my bank.
+
+[45:43] So that's you know, that's why I don't have anything but olive oil around. You know? Anyway. Uh uh, who is who that writes in? Zach in Pittsburgh writes in.
+
+[45:54] I'm considering getting a big boy blender for my apartment kitchen. I know you guys like the Vitamix, but the price makes me kind of gun shy. Blend Tech looks like they make comparable blenders at a lower price. I know you've talked about blenders a ton, but would like to hear some more. The show continues to be great.
+
+[46:08] I just wish Dave wouldn't yell into the mic so much and blast the levels. Keep up the good work, Zap and Zach in Pittsburgh. Stas loves any time someone uh uh insults. In fact, she's she's doing the she's doing the yeah yeah pound in the air with it with a I'm not though. You gotta get close to that mic.
+
+[46:24] Well, you know keep the levels good. All right, all right, all right. I'm getting conflicting information. Apparently Well screaming and staying close to the mic are two separate things. Which is better, screaming or staying close to the mic.
+
+[46:35] Staying close to the mic. Alright. So uh here's my feeling. Uh I've have never seen an inexpensively plu priced blend tech blender. I've used their expensive one, the one that goes in jamba j jamba jamba, jamba juice.
+
+[46:47] And uh and of course I've used the Vitaprep, and it's the power of the blenders is both good. Uh, but Vitaprep is just a far better blender in terms of the controls and how I like to use them. Um I mean I've talked before in the air that Vitapep, I have some issues with their old pitcher style. I think their newer pitchers are probably better. Uh but uh, you know, I don't see chefs using a lot of any other kind of blender, which leads me to believe that no one's had that good a luck with any other kind of blender.
+
+[47:14] Now Stas and Piper here have said that they've heard good things about the ninja, but I've never seen a ninja in a professional kitchen. Mean blender, ninja blender in a professional kitchen. Ninjas I've seen. You never see a ninja. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:28] Well, I've seen the ninja. Have I ever told that have I told that story on air about uh what when I was at uh when I was at Kinikanuya? No. All right. Well, they're they're gonna get me off this, they're gonna get me off the air in in uh in a in a in a minute.
+
+[47:40] So like Mark, is anything else you want to say about? No, no, I'm fine. Thank you. Uh and we'll meet some sticks on Saturday. Please do.
+
+[47:47] Uh and you'll be you actually be there, so you get to you get to talk to uh to Mark, you know. Uh fascinating, I assure you. Mark, one of our beta testers for the Sears All unit, by the way. You still having any good luck with that or no good luck? Yeah, yeah, I love it.
+
+[47:58] Yeah, nice. All right. Uh thanks, Piper, for coming on. But I'll tell you a little story that I may or may not get in trouble for about ninjas. Uh so I was going to Kina Kenuya, which is like the awesome bookstore in New York City for Japanese uh books.
+
+[48:13] Incredibly expensive because I think that even if it's an American book, they must ship it from Japan over here in China. Because it's really expensive over there. And my son Booker, who, you know, who uh is awesome, but you know, sometimes will say things he shouldn't, like screams in Kinekanuya, why is it so expensive here? These deals are not good. I'm like, shut up, shut up.
+
+[48:31] Uh so anyway, so we're in Kinakanuya because they have a Zaya upstairs, and Zaya is like a kind of like uh a Japanese cafe we have here in New York, and they make actually I love their onigiri, the little rice squares with the nori, because their nori is hermetically wrapped and placed around the rice square, so you pull the plastic off at the last minute, and the nori is always really, really crunchy. And so Booker is obsessed with uh with Zaya's Onigiri. So we're there, and Dax is well, my the other son Dax, like little her best friend's little little sister. We're sitting in Zaya, and uh some um some women walk in, uh, you know, wearing uh not Burka, but the other, the other, the other kind of Islamic dress that where it's just the eyes are just the eyes are visible, and you know they're wearing full face cover. And Dax's uh Dax's friend Amaya looks over, whispers in her mom's ear, look, mom, ninjas.
+
+[49:25] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network or heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[49:58] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest.
+
+[0:26] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Do you want to learn cutting edge cooking techniques? You could buy Modernist Cuisine, or you can save yourself $450 and check out our new free website, Chef Steps.com.
+
+[0:44] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org, a nonprofit member supported radio station. We're millions strong, with folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education. We are entertainment. We are the future of food.
+
+[1:00] May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show.
+
+[1:21] Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Burda's Pizzeria in the back of the Well, no, coming to you from Roberta's Pizzeria, actually. Not in the back of anything.
+
+[2:02] We are in the back of uh Roberta Petria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Uh back from Senegal today. Uh sorry I wasn't able to do it uh last week live from Senegal, but uh you know how sometimes these things work. Uh we are down. Two of our crew members today, Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, uh is in Philadelphia attending uh a conference uh by our good friends David Michaels, fo uh flavorists and food chemistry folks down in Philadelphia, and they are hosting a food innovation seminar today.
+
+[2:29] And Nastasha is there. Uh also Jack is MIA today, but we do have Joe, thank goodness. Hey Joe. How's it going, Dave? Doing well.
+
+[2:37] Uh and we are joined in the studio, I think by the first time ever, maybe in the studio, with uh Peter Kim. Yo, what's up, y'all? How? So Peter Kim uh is uh what's your title over there? Executive director.
+
+[2:48] Really? Yeah. Okay. Is the executive director. Uh Peter Kim is the executive director of the Museum of Food and Drink, uh, which is a 501c3.
+
+[3:00] Uh when do we get our status there? We got it last September. Right, and uh we uh it uh oh yes. Uh I'm uh the founder. I also have what's my other title here?
+
+[3:08] You're also the president. Well founder and also the president of Visionary. Yeah, nice. Great. Uh and uh you want to give them the mission?
+
+[3:15] I'm sure you have it uh memorized. Our mission is to change the way people think about food and inspire day-to-day curiosity about what we eat and why. Yeah, and uh and you know, just uh I'm sure I've already spouted this a million times, but j why do we need a brick and mortar museum devoted to this? Because uh you can't eat food in a in a book. And uh, you know, watching TV is always unsatisfying because you see people eating food, but in a museum you could actually be tasting things as you learn about it.
+
+[3:39] Right. So in this museum, it's not gonna be as someone once asked me uh, you know, a long time ago. Are are we just gonna be looking at uh you know shellacked pieces of bread or some sort of plastic sushi or stuff like that? Is that we're gonna be looking at here? No moldy sandwiches and you know, little boxes.
+
+[3:53] Uh this is gonna be like I mean, sometimes I describe it like like Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, but with an educational focus. Right, right. And uh, you know, and and why have most other food uh museums this concept? Why why do you find them uh lacking? Why are they lacking there?
+
+[4:07] I think two things really. One is that they often have too broad of a focus, and so they try to cover everything in food and drink, which you know, as you know really well, that covers that's a that covers uh a lot of ground. And so MoFed will be actually focusing on very specific topics instead. And the other is I think you know, uh a lot of uh a lot of food museums really end up being corporate sales, and that's something we're really not gonna be. Sweet.
+
+[4:30] Uh so you know, it's good to hear uh good to hear these words out of uh out of Peter's mouth. We hope to have this museum in an actual brick and mortar location in how many years? Around five years, yeah or take. Five years. So it takes time to build a museum.
+
+[4:43] It it it turns out it does take time to build a museum. In fact, uh, you know, most museums um start with a large donation of money, uh or a large donation of a collection, right? So they start with that kind of uh that kind of a uh nut. The uh the the genesis of this museum simply is an idea. But I think uh, you know, uh the the great part about this idea is that uh a lot of people like the subject, and so we're hoping to we're gonna be I'm gonna be pestering and uh soliciting for the museum uh more and more uh as time goes on.
+
+[5:17] Uh just wanted our listeners to know that uh the project is still going uh great guns, slamming forward, not in a way that um people outside might see, but that there is actually uh a lot of work going on and hopefully you know can't talk about it much right now but hopefully good news in three four months maybe yeah possible fingers crossed and i if it's not good news in three and four months I'll tell you what the bad news is that it wasn't good news and we'll figure out what our next steps are. But the other reason I have uh Peter in the studio today is because I just got back from Africa and since Nastasha can't be here I want to talk a little bit later about my trip to Africa and Peter's a good choice because he was also a volunteer uh in the Peace Corps in Cameroon, correct? Yeah that's right. Almost two and a half years there. Yeah yeah and uh interestingly if we have time I don't know if we will because of course I'm horribly late uh we'll get in also to uh Peter's experimentation with uh cot over on the in the east of Africa.
+
+[6:08] Right I don't know what you're talking about Dave. Yeah it's legal over there. Right? I mean I don't think you're gonna get prostate I don't think you can get uh Peter aside aside from being the uh executive director of the Museum of Food and Drink and a uh an accomplished uh Spanish uh style guitar player uh is a lawyer and so you know probably shouldn't cop to illegal drug use in uh in this country and I mean I guess technically if it's a schedule one narcotic you're not allowed to consume it in any country is that true? I'm not sure how it works.
+
+[6:38] Well maybe you could talk about the experiences of some guy named Meter Mim that you were sitting next to in Keter Pim. Yeah Keter Pym in uh uh in East Africa later to discuss it. 'Cause I think it's uh it's an interesting um it's an interesting story and uh we'll get into it later. Anyway, should you have questions, feel free to call them in too. 7184972128.
+
+[6:58] That's 7184972128. Okay. First question in from William about milk. My cousin had an interesting question on her face on her Facebook page. She's come across whole milk being sold for a dollar fifty-nine a gallon at her local store.
+
+[7:09] That's crazy. Milk should not cost a dollar fifty-nine a gallon. You know what I mean? That's insane. I mean, like, I mean it shouldn't happen.
+
+[7:14] It's got mean like I hope I hope the store's losing a lot of money and that they haven't figured out a way to sc you know screw the system and the people making it in the cows so hard that the milk is actually only worth a dollar fifty-nine a gallon. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe someone like mislabeled it.
+
+[7:32] I've done that. Like, I walked into a store once and uh passion fruit were labeled uh per pound instead of per each. This was back when I was, you know, just graduated from college, I had no money. And so I bought every passion fruit in the store for like an unbelievably low price. And the person I was like, say so on the pricing, you have to honor the price, you put in the thing.
+
+[7:51] And they did. I was even more of a jerk than than I am now. I should have just purchased two passion fruit at that price and then let them recoup their mistake. But instead I bought that's not you, Dave. It's not me.
+
+[8:02] I bought every passion fruit in the store. That's right. I was like, it doesn't say limit. I was a real jerk. But you know you when you're when you have no money and you and you love things, like it's you know, you feel more of a justification for jerking people around like that.
+
+[8:14] And you taught them a valuable lesson in precision with their pricing. I did. I'm sure they didn't give a crap. Uh that was a stopping shop back in New Haven. Oh boy.
+
+[8:24] Going back to the super yeah, I haven't been back to the super stopping shop uh in New Haven in a bazillion years. And I don't think I will. No? No. You you a shop and stop?
+
+[8:33] I've never no, no. No? No. Uh okay, question was: are there any drawbacks to freezing whole milk? Will the texture, consistency, or taste be adversely affected?
+
+[8:44] I would think, since it has much less milk fat than cream, that the ice crystals wouldn't affect it so much. Thanks. Can't wait till the Kickstarter torch is available. Neither can I actually. But um we're working on that as well.
+
+[8:57] So it's an interesting question, William. Now, there are uh a lot of studies out there. Uh what happens, I haven't tasted, I didn't have time to actually do the test and see whether you could do tasting. What happens is that the um the the uh fat globules in homogenized milk are altered by the freezing process. And so it's possible that you will get different, and in fact, there are some studies, I didn't have time to sift through them all.
+
+[9:23] There's a bunch of studies uh out there on this, but a lot of them are older, so I couldn't get the full text of them. They weren't in the in the date in the database that I was searching, so I couldn't get the actual nitty-gritty of it. But uh, yeah, so when you freeze, especially if you're going through multiple freeze thaw cycles, which is gonna happen unless something's totally frozen, so it depends on how much of abuse you get in the in the fridge, you're gonna alter the fat globule size. Now, if you alter the fat globule size, you will alter uh mouth feel and you will alter um you know uh possibly uh you know how how it works or whether it's gonna you know the fat's gonna agglomerate more when you when you heat it. I would think that it's going to be relatively small effect uh you know, when you're using the milk in in in cooking situations where curdling might not be a problem uh and it might not even have an effect in in a curdling situation.
+
+[10:10] Uh but yes, technically it is affected. And although I apologize that I don't have uh more information on that, I came across, and this is one of the reasons I'm actually late, is because when I'm researching something, I in just like in my real life, when I'm researching things, I go off on tangents and found a very interesting tangent. Um it's actually gonna tie in later. We have a question about uh pregnancy and in eating later. But um there was a study on freeze freezing and thawing human breast milk.
+
+[10:40] And this is uh actually very important because um uh m you know most mothers who breastfeed um also at least that I have met, you know, will also um express some of their breast milk and freeze it for later use. This way, if they're uh at work, you know, uh the caregiver can uh feed the actual breast milk to the child, or uh an alternate thing is that you know the mom then can sleep a little bit longer at night and the dad can wake up in the middle of the night and feed uh the already expressed breast milk, you know, natural breast milk to the the baby, right? So, and and you know, you can either refrigerate the the milk or you can uh freeze it. Now, uh so the question is does freezing the breast milk do anything bad to the milk? Uh and and oh, this is also important in other countries actually, because uh there's a thing called uh human milk banks.
+
+[11:35] And in a human milk bank, you know, uh mothers who are lactating uh continue to lactate and express milk and then donate it to um donate it to hospitals so that um you know uh um babies that are born early, let's say, and maybe the the the mother's milk doesn't come in right away, they can feed this you know actual human milk to babies that couldn't otherwise have, which is a great idea, right? Fantastic idea. Right. But you but you have to freeze it to to preserve it. Okay, so so what happens?
+
+[12:04] Well, it turns out that uh aside from the the structure of the fat, you know, uh changing like I said, I said it would, the actual fat level in the milk as it's fed to the babies decreases substantially on freezing. And uh along with that, the protein available in the milk decreases, not as much as the fat. The fat can decrease significantly, uh, you know, but the the protein in it as well can. On thawing, right, the fat preferentially sticks to the relatively hydrophobic walls of the plastic vessels that breast milk is invariably stored in. They didn't, and they didn't touch test test glass, because it's not usually stored in glass, right?
+
+[12:57] So the fat uh the fat um sticks um predominantly to this those side things, and so the remaining liquid is relatively depleted in fat, and that some of the proteins also are bound in with the fat and adhere to the fat layer, and so you're also somewhat reduced in the protein levels uh as a result. And and turns out that it's statistically significant. Interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[13:22] So uh there you have it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know really what to make of that. The name of the study, should you choose to look at it, is and uh my iPad decided that it I should no longer be able to read, so it turned off one second. Is uh it's in a uh the magazine Early Human Development, and it's called Analysis of the Influence of Oh, they also tested pasteurization, uh, but I didn't read uh that section as much, pasteurization of it. Freezing thawing and other processes on human milk's macronutrient concentrations by Viera et al.
+
+[13:51] in 2011. Um, yeah, you don't here's a reason not to pasteurize. I did read a little bit. A reason a reason not to pasteurize uh human breast milk uh is that it inactivates the bile salt stimulated lipase, which is greatly responsible for the digestion and absorption of fat in newborn infants. So pasteurization decreases the maximum utilization of the delivered human milk.
+
+[14:11] That's a basically a direct quote. So anyway, there you have it. Yeah, regardless of what you do, it's probably better than powdered milk. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying that, you know, uh it's not saying that you that you're not getting, you know, all the benefits.
+
+[14:25] It's just that there's, you know, that there's not going to be quite as nutritive in terms of fat quantity. Anyway what I thought it was interesting. But here's another interesting thing I researched as a result. I'll tell you I've tangents, right? So recently, I here's my story about uh that I've always had for years and I've never gone back and done the hardcore research, which is of course we what you should always do before you make a statement.
+
+[14:43] People say, well, uh should I consume uh breast milk should I who should I consume breast milk? Should I consume alcohol while I'm lactating, right? That's a question that a lot of people ask. And my you know kind of pat response has been, well look, you figure that uh human milk, although it has fat, is mostly water, you know, vastly mostly water. And therefore you would assume that the uh alcohol content of breast milk is relatively similar to the mother's blood alcohol level.
+
+[15:10] Blood alcohol level, let's say you know, they they were you know on the limit there five percent, right? So assuming that the blood that the milk has a roughly similar alcohol concentration of 0.05% alcohol, in my mind from a uh from an actual ethanol level concentration, that's roughly zero. Zero point five percent. That would mean 50 milligrams per milligrams per hundred uh milliliters, as opposed to uh a glass of wine which is uh you know like let's say it's 12% alcohol that's um twelve thousand milligrams per uh you know per milliliter, right? So roughly zero we're talking about twelve thousand milligrams no no no sorry a hundred and twenty thousand milligrams yeah so thirty five you know milligrams would be roughly zero right okay so uh turns out uh I might be wrong.
+
+[16:12] So tip the bottle. Yeah. So well no no so here's the story, right? It's uh it it it what is true is that human breast milk does roughly correlate with blood alcohol level right and so that uh for a woman that uh that consumes roughly uh three you know uh thirty five th you know three or so or a little more a little less uh grams um of alcohol per kilogram of body weight right is that true a little less anyway that gets a blood alcohol level of like 0.3 your milk will be roughly 0.3.35 somewhere in there right percent so the uh so the the deal uh the deal is is that that was right what I said however it turns out that i there's a study that was published in 2000 that shows that that small amount of alcohol in the breast milk can actually have an effect what they studied was um sleep the sleep patterns of babies and so uh that were fed and the study was they they had mothers uh and they expressed breast milk you know with a medella and then over the course of two different testing days they either took that milk and added thirty five milligrams per hundred ml of alcohol to the breast milk bottle or didn't and it turned out that the ones that they fed the um alcohol to did not uh sleep as well and didn't have as much uh activity during their uh waking hours as the ones that didn't. So, you know, uh it's only one study.
+
+[17:40] Uh I haven't seen it replicated since 2000. I don't know whether the information is still there. Uh, but it's interesting to note that um that that's out there, right? Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[17:51] All right. So uh Alex from Toronto writes in, Dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe, Indy Jesus, Carlos. We going back. And whoever might be working in the booth now, uh, I'm still catching up on back podcasts. I was finally prompted to write in because of Dave's story about the person rapping out loud in episode 83.
+
+[18:09] So I was talking about how you know people are rapping out loud and how they suck. That's what I was talking about. Uh anyway, uh Alex Right said, My wife and I recently visited New York, and probably the strangest thing about our trip was how many people we saw singing as they walked the streets or waited for subway trains. Nearly all of them had earphones in and seemed to be singing along with recordings, but we're also clearly practicing rather than just casually singing along. We wondered if this was some kind of special New York thing, the Broadway equivalent of LA waiters hoping to be discovered by an agent or director.
+
+[18:35] Judging by your reaction to the rapper, apparently not. But we saw at least a dozen people doing this on our four-day visit. Our favorite was a girl practicing her ballet moves in the subway, totally unself-consciously waiting for a train. Weird. Yes, it is weird.
+
+[18:48] And and it is quite common here, and I don't know what the hell it is. You know what I think it is? I think it's that uh when you live here, uh first of all, I remember years ago, and I might have mentioned this in the other episode. Like I was learning to try and play bagpipes, and they told me, just go outside and play because just you know, because what else are you gonna do? You live in New York.
+
+[19:04] You know what I mean? So there's the fact that you can't practice anything in private New York. There's no private place in New York you can do anything. You have an apartment, you probably have a family or roommate there, uh, you know, you don't have a basement, you don't have a garage, you don't have a backyard. Uh what the hell are you gonna do?
+
+[19:19] You know, if you're gonna play bagpipes, you know, what are you gonna do? You know, it's like it's there's no real choices, you know what I mean? And so same thing goes with uh bad rapping or bad singing or any of that stuff, is that since you have no place to do it, you go outside and you do it. And furthermore, I think they're like uh living in such a big busy city uh strangely dehumanizes all the people around you, and they become like trees or shrubs. You tend to stop thinking of them as people, and then so you're not embarrassed about singing in front of them because they're they're not human beings to you.
+
+[19:45] Are you positing that there's a correlation between population density and bad public rapping? Possibly. Possibly, yes. I also think that everybody is just crazy here, too. Like there's a there's a lot of crazy going on in New York City.
+
+[19:59] Do you think there's more crazy than normal, or it's just like like you see it more because you see more people every day? I think that's uh I think that there's just so many people around, there's just gotta be more crazies. Right, right. And like I say, like, you know, we have our we have our kind of you know, zone out blinders on when you're walking around the city, and so you know, you tend to just view everyone as this kind of like a like a blur. Right, you know, anyway.
+
+[20:19] Uh so uh anyway, uh they went to New York and uh and and they made it back. And here's the story. When we got back from our trip to New York, we found that after three years of trying, uh, we are expecting a baby, which is nice. So New York did that did the deal. Uh the calendar doesn't quite uh back this up, but I give partial credit to the Bangkok daiquiri and son of a peach that we drank at Booker and Dax bar.
+
+[20:42] Good times. Well, thanks. Thanks. Uh you know, I'll take that, I'll take that credit. Uh, you know, we're we're the I mean I wouldn't say that we're yeah, I would I'm not gonna go into it.
+
+[20:50] Okay. Uh we don't seem to have anything like the awesome New York bar scene here in Toronto, but perhaps I'm just unaware of the best stuff. Dave Chang just opened three restaurants in Toronto. Any plans to expand the Booker and Dax Empire? I let's put it this way.
+
+[21:02] I don't know. Won't say no, and I won't say yes. Okay. Very ominous. Yeah.
+
+[21:07] Yeah. Well, I mean, I hope it's not ominous. I hope if we do it, it's a good thing. It's not like, you know, the evil empire coming in. I mean, maybe it is, I don't know.
+
+[21:13] That'd be awesome. I wish I had some sort of like evil, evil emperor vibe that I could bring to whatever I you know what I mean? Someday. That's my goal now. That's my new goal.
+
+[21:22] Evil Empire vibe. Okay. Uh but I guess it's time for some cooking questions. Now that the wife is up the spout, she is no longer able to enjoy her favorite drinks. By the way, that's a phrase, and I I I pride myself on kind of being well versed in slang and idiom.
+
+[21:35] I mean it's kind of, you know, I do. I ne I never heard that before. Have you heard that one before? Never. Uh up the spout is a British informal, this according to the uh Oxford English Dictionary, for one, broken, i.e.
+
+[21:45] no longer working, which hopefully is that's not what we mean in the case. Or uh two, of a woman pregnant. But according to this, it's possibly related to the other thing, like somehow you're broken by getting pregnant. Because I think it was maybe an unwanted pregnancy in the past. Clearly not in this case, and it's lost that meaning.
+
+[22:07] I'm not even gonna try to start analyzing that one. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, but an interesting phrase, and and uh I like it when anyone gives me a phrase that I'm not uh familiar with. Okay, or or I should say with which I'm not familiar. Okay. Uh she usually drinks white wine and Caesars.
+
+[22:19] Caesar's a possibly a Canada specific drink. Basically it's a bloody Mary with clam juice. Uh no, that that's a drink, uh also known as Bloody Caesar or a clam digger or a bunch of other things. Clam digger is the one I normally hear it by. You know, it's clamato, which I love saying that word.
+
+[22:34] A clamato. It's not clemato though. Like it's tomato tomato is fine, but it's not clamato juice. That just sounds weird. Clamato.
+
+[22:42] Yeah. With the accent. Yeah. Well, yes, yes. I won't do it again.
+
+[22:46] Okay. Um Dave just put a monocle on while you said that. I I wish, I wish. We all know that the Mr. Peanut with the monocle is one of the most dashing figures in all of in all in all of uh uh whatever those people are called, spokes spokes characters.
+
+[23:00] That's right. Right? I mean like Joe, what do you think about that? You like the Mr. Peanut with Monocle?
+
+[23:05] Simply dashing. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. You know, I was talking about this with Labor, who's uh the uh design the uh our graphic design team for the museum, and they took a freaking peanut, which is it's a it's a ridiculous looking thing. You know what I mean? A peanut.
+
+[23:21] It's like it's like if you squeeze the hell out of a golf ball and like colored it beige and made it dirty. That's a peanut. You're like, put a pop hat, give it a monocle, and all of a sudden it's like Classy. Classy. Amazing.
+
+[23:35] And on the far end of the spectrum, I think uh that very same conversation was Grimace, who is the opposite of classy. There's no class in Grimace. Grimace and nobody knows what what the heck Grimace is. Now listen, by the way, I don't want to get any negative calls here. We're not hating on Grimace.
+
+[23:48] He's just not classy. Just not classy. Yeah, he's he's like the he is like kind of prototypical schlub. I mean, I am also a prototyp pro prototypical slub, so not hating. Yeah.
+
+[23:59] Alright, yeah. No hate. No hate on the grimace. Just not classy. Okay.
+
+[24:03] Uh okay. Uh she usually drinks white wine and Caesars. Uh I finished whipping up a batch, uh so the by the way, if she's not gonna drink alcoholic drinks and she likes Bloody Marys or those kinds of things, uh that's terrific because they uh don't have that much of a perception of alcohol. So like the hardest drinks to uh to you know, master are the ones that are heavily alcohol flavored, like bourbon drinks or things like that. So, you know, if she likes things that are um if she likes things like that that are relatively strong flavored, you know, you could easily make uh, you know, a uh a virgin version of that.
+
+[24:37] Uh if you're gonna use any sort of fresh clam product, obviously you pasteurize the shit prasurize the hell out of it. You don't want to get uh, you know, anyone uh sick, but the clamato juice that they sell has been you know heat pasteurized, and so it's okay. So you know, so you can use it. Uh so I mean that'd be an ideal. The white wine, obviously, you can't, you know, drink the white wine, but you could do any sort of um uh you know acidic uh product.
+
+[25:01] Some people say like white cranberry juice, it's altered with a bunch of different things. I mean, I think the the the key thing, well I'll I'll continue reading the question, maybe, right? Yeah, good idea. Uh uh he's uh he says, I've just finished whipping up a batch of your coriander syrup recipe, which is very tasty with the one I use for the coriander old fashions. But I was wondering if you suggest either some other recipes or somewhere to start looking for serious drinks which happen to contain no alcohol and are easy to make at home.
+
+[25:23] I tried making a peach sipping vinegar based on recipes for other fruits that I found online, but that was a bust. It just tasted gross. Uh any thoughts? I'm hoping to find something with enough complexity that will make it satisfying to uh sip for a long time. And I think that's the key, by the way, uh, is the sipping for a long time because that's what uh you know kind of separates uh uh an alcoholic drink that you don't pound too hard, at least you're not supposed to.
+
+[25:45] I mean, I might, but you're not supposed to, uh, versus you know, uh uh, you know, like a thirst quenching drink. Now, on the one hand, the reason why coriander, uh the coriander syrup, especially if you make it spicier, if you increase the spice level of uh a drink or the kind of uh spice impact of the drink, it tends to shift uh towards a more sipping drink, right? So that's why the coriander syrup, which is more akin to like take ginger ale, right? I love ginger ale. Uh you don't pound ginger ale as hard as you pound Sprite, right?
+
+[26:16] I don't pound Sprite either. Well, let's say you were going to. Yeah. You know what I mean? You don't pound it as as hard as you pound seltzer.
+
+[26:22] Yeah. Right? Right. You don't pound ginger beer as hard as you pound ginger ale. Right.
+
+[26:27] Right. So uh ginger beer, good candidate for uh non-alcoholic drinks that you can sip for a while because you are going to take it in small doses. But the other key is that you can't do that by making something that you the reason you're taking small doses is that you don't want to drink it. Right. Right.
+
+[26:45] Which is why ginger beer is such a good candidate. Uh and that, you know, if you know properly done, uh the coriander syrup uh without with uh with um making it into a soda with like some lime is a good candidate because it stays good tasting, but you take it in small doses. You're not like sh bang, knocking it back. Um so you know, you could do that. Um the but the the other thing is uh that I think you you know it's very difficult having tried to do this for you know my wife, you can make special drinks.
+
+[27:18] The other thing you can do to make make drinks uh more sippable, and I hesitate to do this because I don't like these kinds of drinks myself, but is to make them physically thick. So drinks that contain uh pureees uh tend to go down slower, but if you like them at all, tend to be enjoyable. Uh and it's especially good in the summer months as they as they come up. Uh so you can do like frozen things, things like smoothies, and you know, she'll feel good about the theoretical health benefits that she's getting from them, and uh and and also uh be sipping them uh slowly. So I hope I hope this is somewhat helpful.
+
+[27:53] What do you think, Peter? Did you have any uh Bisop while you're in Senegal, Dave? I had a whole boatload of uh of uh Bisop. That is one of my favorite summer refreshing beverages, and I'm wondering whether if you concentrated those flavors, that could become something more sippable. Oh, yeah.
+
+[28:06] Well, so bisop is good, it's a good good point. Bisop is uh uh known by a a bunch of different names Roselle, uh red sorrel, not to be confused with uh wood sorrel or the herb sorrel, uh it's hibiscus flour. And uh, you know, it's used in Africa where it's native, it's used a lot in the Caribbean and Mexico, where it's naturalized, uh, and uh makes a fantastic uh beverage. Uh the bisap that I had in Africa was of higher quality than the dried stuff that I get here. Uh, but I have used the stuff here and it's good.
+
+[28:39] You make like you make a tea. They actually make a delicious, also, they make a delicious bisop jelly in uh in West Africa, at least in Senegal, and it's amazing because it has the texture of apple butter, but with that really tart, acidic, fruity thing. So I think bisop would be great. Make a tea out of it, sweeten it. Uh, and then uh actually bisop and ginger works, and also bisop and mint works.
+
+[29:00] Or all three. Yeah, or all three together. And so, like a combination of mint, uh bisop and ginger could make a really great um um drink that could go on the sipping. If you make it a little bit weaker, then it's a pounder, and if you make it a little bit, you know, uh heavier in flavor, then it's more of a sipper. But the great thing about it is is that if you're a fan of the flavor, which I am, you don't tire of it when you're drinking it.
+
+[29:23] You know, you can drink uh you can drink a good bit of it. Good call, Peter. Right on. Good call. Uh all right.
+
+[29:29] Uh my other question is about uh coffee. Uh I do not have an espresso machine and would not be able to justify the expense of buying any new equipment. But would love to be able to make phone milk for our weekend coffee. I've tried to look for solutions on Coffee Geek and various other websites, but I've had no luck. I did find a video where someone seemed to be able to make a decent foam with the little wands you can buy at IKEA, but I've been unable to replicate this either uh uh either with the identical gadget or by the slightly more expensive one that Cooks Illustrated recommends.
+
+[29:53] What am I missing? Is steam an essential part of the process? Am I not getting the right temperature or just using the wrong uh vessel to hold the milk? Is there a stabilizer that might help? Uh I seem to be able to get a good foam when the milk is cold, but I can't seem to heal heat the milk up to even moderately drinkable temperatures like 60 uh Celsius and keep the foam or to foam the milk at higher temperatures.
+
+[30:10] The coffee geeks just laugh at me and say, I am SOL. Uh any ideas? Uh yeah, I think you're SOL. But here's the issue. Uh like many things, uh by the way, uh, you know, uh Alex has another question on on uh on coffee makers, but I'm gonna have to put that one off till next time, Alex.
+
+[30:30] But the the the deal is this. Um so the coffee coffee geek was one of the early websites that introduced uh I mean, so you know, those of you that have been making coffee for a while, uh, you know, know that's like the latte art movement kind of that came out of Seattle in the late 90s, I guess. 1990s, is that right? I mean, it's hard for me to look back. Uh, you know, David Schomer from Vivace was the first person I knew about who you know was widely talking about it, and I bought his book, you know, uh what's whatever it's called, professional barisa techniques, whatever, where he you know explains it.
+
+[31:04] Uh and uh, you know, amazing stuff. But to get that, the lot, you know, by the way, latte art, everyone knows what I'm talking about here, latte art, the pictures that you make by by you know doing the milk. And the highest form of it, you don't even touch the cup at all. It's just how you pour the milk makes it. But in order to do it, you need a very specific texture of milk, right?
+
+[31:19] Now the theory is that that texture of milk is also the most delicious texture of milk, but it's called a microfoam. And so uh there's a lot written in Coffee Geek about how to ch achieve microfoam. And that particular type of microfoam is produced by steaming, right? And trying to create that in any other way, I mean, you might be able to come up uh, uh or I might be, or you might be, someone might be able to come up with it with a similar textured product by doing a host of other things to it, but there's no simple way, right? Now here's the question.
+
+[31:51] Is that the best tasting foam? I don't know. It's a taste of foam. Is espresso the best taste of coffee? I think it is, but other people like other forms of coffee making.
+
+[32:01] So what I would do is stop trying to make latte art style foam in any other technique, and just find a foaming technique that you like that makes a taste that you like. You know, I you're I I've have very severe doubts that you're going to be able to without a lot of experimentation. And we could stabilize it and whip it, uh, but you know, the microfoam is a very specific, very dense, bubble-sized, very wet foam. And, you know, right? I mean, uh, you know, and just because you're different just because you get a different result doesn't mean it's necessarily worse.
+
+[32:34] You're just gonna have to use it in a different way. But I will think more about it and maybe talk about it more when I talk about your coffee questi coffee maker question later. Uh uh John Riper uh came in and he uh uh last week, unfortunately I wasn't here, I was in Senegal, and he gave us some really interesting hazelnuts. So I'll just read a little quick thing. So hazelnuts, we all know hazelnuts, a little round, but they're not all around.
+
+[32:56] There's a variety called the Ducilli uh uh hazelnut that is long, almost looks almondy and looks like woody on the outside. So uh John dropped by some, these are like these are like super like uh old cultivar heritage uh heirloom variety of uh hazelnuts. And uh he dropped by some roasted ones and uh unroasted ones and was talking about the um what happens to the development of flavor in hazelnuts as as they're roasted. So since I just got back yesterday, I tasted them, but I haven't had time to do a lot of experimenting. So next week, John, I'm gonna go more into about these different things.
+
+[33:28] But you guys should take a look at these Ducilli uh hazelnuts. They're supposed to have a thinner skin and therefore be less bitter than uh their their smaller, rounder uh berethrin, but they're uh susceptible to certain diseases, and that's why they're not grown much. If you want to research it well, I'm uh until before I can get back to you guys. Go to Homequist uh orchards where they grow them in uh in Washington. Okay, um Robin writes in about meat grinders.
+
+[33:55] Dave, please say some words about meat grinders. I'm primarily using a meat grinder for making dog food from chicken, turkey, and rabbit parts. So I need something uh powerful enough to not bog down uh grinding soft bones uh and uh with a fill hole that will accommodate something as large as a chicken leg without me having to further invest in a meat cleaver to cut up the parts so they're small enough to fit in a chute. I made the mistake of purchasing an LEM number five 0.2 horsepower motor grinder sold by your local sporting goods big box store. It is underpowered.
+
+[34:21] It is underpowered. The fuse had to be reset frequently, even though I'm not forcing the meat through, and it is overheating and smoking. It requires disassembly to unjam it and was a waste of money. It is going back to the store tomorrow without breaking the bank. What do you recommend?
+
+[34:35] It will serve me well. Thanks for the brilliant radio show. Uh all y'all, Robin. Okay, here's the deal. So, Peter, you might be asking yourself, why would they want to grow grind the bones?
+
+[34:45] Oh, I am asking myself that very question. Well, remember, they're making dog food. So the thing is dogs uh calcium supposes. There's a movement called the barf diet, which the acronym can mean different things, but like bones and raw food diet for dogs, and you grind up the the bones whole, so the dogs take in the whole thing. Cats also.
+
+[35:01] Have to be careful not to do uh not to do it with cooked bones because uh cooked bones uh are very sharp and can damage the uh insides of the of uh you know your animal. And then there's the debate of whether or not there's microbial problems doing a raw food diet when you feed it to an animal, blah blah blah. But I'm not getting into that. We're getting into whether it grinded. Now I've never thought about this problem, uh, but I did some I did some research.
+
+[35:21] Turns out that the LEM that you looked at uh that you have, the LEM um uh number five uh quarter horsepower one, which sells on uh Amazon for 1969, uh has a quarter horsepower power motor, it's pretty small motor. The good news about that grinder that you have that you hate is that uh the gears are all metal and so they're really tough and it's all stainless, so all that's really tough. But that motor is underpowered, and so it's gonna jam, overheat, and the fuse will blow. Or it's not really probably the fuse, it's probably the thermal overload in it. So that's probably what's happening.
+
+[35:54] So the solution to that is they do make a larger motor one. Uh they make a 0.375 horsepower, which is only $70 more, $267, you can go get, and that might be a solution. I've heard other people say that that one grinds chicken bones better. Uh, you know, then you like, you know, if you really without breaking the bank, that's the problem. The larger ones can do it.
+
+[36:17] So the Weston uh the Weston number 22 professional on the Amazon for $551, everyone says that grinds through chicken like nobody's business, right? Uh but uh, you know, that's well over twice, almost three times the cost of the one that you had. Um if you go on the on uh it's still on eBay now. If you look at the STX TurboForce 3000 series, you like that? STX Turboforce 3000.
+
+[36:43] They say it's uh it's 150 bucks. They say that it is uh 3,000 watts. And they admit, if you look at the, it's really interesting, actually, if you look at the things. The thing with with motors of all types is people you have to ask someone how they rate it. So I'm assuming that when LEM is rating their motors, they're actually talking shhaft horsepower, power at the shaft, right?
+
+[37:03] Which is different from the input power into the machine, right? Because motors aren't 100% efficient. So it's a question of how you do it. One 740 something watts is one horsepower, right? Uh so these guys say that the STX Turboforce 3,000 is 3,000 watt, but that's a load of malarkey.
+
+[37:19] That's you know, that's the motor, as my dad would always say, that's the motor, like as it's about to explode from burning out, like when you're holding the shaft and plugging it in and drawing all the current that you possibly can and everything's blowing up and dying, right? Uh or peak impulse death power as he calls it. I'm imagining back to the future uh dock, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like bolts everywhere.
+
+[37:39] Yeah, exactly. So uh in reality, this 3,000 watt monstrosity is is actually closer to three quarters of a horsepower in real life. But that's still significantly more powerful than the one you have. It has uh some plastic gears, but they claim that these plastic gears uh don't break. It does have a guarantee.
+
+[37:57] It also has something you might be interested in called a reverse switch, so that you can reverse the machinery to unjam it without disassembling it. So if you do jam it, there you go. Now, there are a number of people on the reviewing things that say they've ground chicken bones, and then there's a number of people who call BS on that and say sucker doesn't grind chicken bones that well, right? So, what those guys say is that to really grind chicken bones, you gotta freeze the debone your thighs or legs, freeze the thighs, break them with a hammer, and then grind them in, which is what they say to do. But clearly you don't want to do this because you don't want to cleave it up, you say, with a meat cleaver.
+
+[38:31] So, you know, I'm not sure where to go with that. Uh, but it is on Amazon, it does have a return policy, so you might be able to, you know, test your luck, and it is even cheaper than the one you already had. Uh okay. Alex uh wrote in uh different Alex wrote in with questions about uh mocha pots. You know mocha pots, Peter?
+
+[38:52] Yeah. Yeah. You know, the ones that you put on the stove and they're little, they're like made out of aluminum usually and they they make coffee. Actually, you know, I used to use them. They're they're again they're not espresso.
+
+[39:00] People make that mistake. Mocha cup is its own kind of cup, it's not an espresso. So uh Alex has questions on the mocha process. But I think what I'm gonna do, Alex, is fold your question on mocha pots into the other question on coffee that the other Alex asked, and we'll talk about them both on the next show. Since apparently my time here is drawing nigh, right?
+
+[39:18] Yep. Right? Okay. So to quickly to rip through, uh, got some Twitter questions in. Uh Elliot Pabanow writes in, any problems with infusing chopped hazelnuts?
+
+[39:26] I mean, so it's a hazelnut show. It's always happens, man. Uh chopped hazelnuts into cream with an ISI. I mean, I don't know how much of a flavor your uh impact you're gonna get off of uh just infusion without heat and an ISI because nuts aren't that porous. Usually you do a heat infusion or better yet, grind them and make like a nut milk.
+
+[39:42] That's the way I would do it. Grind and make a nut milk and then strain this stuff out. I think that's the best way you're gonna go. I don't know that ISI is gonna be the technique to use with that. But of course, uh I'm probably wrong as usually um.
+
+[39:52] Terry Tinton writes in, hey, have you ever tried creating your own aero chocolate bar? No, I have not. Although, actually, that's not true. I mean, I've made the aerated chocolate before with uh with a vacuum machine, but uh what I would do is go look at uh Heston uh Blumenthal has done uh a lot of work with that. He has a recipe online.
+
+[40:07] Uh you need a uh a vacuum machine and a way to set it uh set it in the freezer, but it's not technically difficult. I've never actually done it though. But Heston's recipe is out there for all to read. So uh, you know, go check it out. If you have more questions or problems on it, uh hit me back on it.
+
+[40:23] Peter, you got uh the Tony uh Harrion has a question in there about uh on the Twitter feed uh about uh freezing and thawing to increase or change the flavor of juice extraction. Uh freezing and thawing ruptures cells, and so therefore will theoretically increase the yield of juice, but I've never done an actual test on it. I will look up over the course of the week uh hopefully whether or not um whether or not there's any studies that I can publish, and then I'll talk about my experiences of the differences in flavor of for instance like frozen thawed lemons and also uh its effect on uh astringency and tannin and things like persimmons, where you can clearly reduce the tannin and the astringency by freezing and thawing. But that's slightly different from what it does to the juice. That's just the flavor change from overall freezing and thawing.
+
+[41:04] Any other questions there you see on the Twitter right away? Uh we got let's see here. Uh Alvin Schultz. Give me some. All right.
+
+[41:11] I want to make large format clear ice at home. Have a chamber vac, rotovap, liquid nitrogen, and a crappy home freezer. Okay, no problem. Go buy an igloo cooler, uh, you know, a square one, rip the top off of it. Uh use hot water, pour it uh if you can use relatively pure hot water, right?
+
+[41:31] Pour it in to the uh warm water. You don't have to you can let it cool down. Don't put it hot into your freezer, you're gonna screw all your stuff. The reason for hot, less dissolved gases, right? Right?
+
+[41:40] Right. Uh it's not strictly speaking necessary, but you know, do it. Warm water even. Then uh put it in the freezer and let it sit for uh you know a number of days. Uh should take like two days, maybe a day, day to two days, test it, right?
+
+[41:53] What's gonna happen is is that the uh the energy is gonna go into the ice uh preferentially through the top, and so you're gonna freeze from the top down. Therefore, all the stuff at the top will be clear as you expel out uh the various impurities at the ice uh water layer that's in the bottom. Then uh pull it out of the freezer before it totally freezes solid, or you can let it freeze totally solid, but the bottom of it's gonna be crappy. Uh let it temper out, pop it out of the igloo, saw off any bad parts that are on the bottom only when it's tempered, and there you go. Should work.
+
+[42:24] Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Uh now, uh, how long do I have? Like three minutes.
+
+[42:32] What do I have, Joe? Three minutes? Yeah, you've got like three minutes. Yeah, exactly. 1257.
+
+[42:38] And we need and we need to go off right at one? You can go a little bit later. All right, so here's here's what we're gonna do. I know I didn't take any commercial breaks today, but because it because we're I'm running late. So what I'm gonna do is is that on the out of the show, can we go to the actual commercial break so we can play our sponsor?
+
+[42:52] By the way, the our sponsor today is Joe. Uh it is the chef's step from Chris Young. Right. So Chris Young, who has been a guest on this show before, is one of the authors of Modernist Cuisine, uh, but not Modernist Cuisine at home. But it's an interesting little dig that he had to save the 500 bucks.
+
+[43:12] That's kind of an interesting little dig. I just met with our friend Michael Natkin yesterday at Booker. By the way, big congratulations to all of our friends who are winners at the James Beard uh last night, including uh Wiley Dufresne, brother in law, Brooks, Brooks Headley from Del Posto, Del Posto itself, and then a bunch of other people. I didn't uh I don't have the full list in front of me, but a bunch of good people uh won. That's great.
+
+[43:34] Anyway, so uh Michael Natkin uh talked to him at the bar yesterday, the writer for the uh Herbivracious uh website and cookbook. Also working with Chris on this project. And uh so I was talking to him about it. You know, maybe maybe we'll do some work with them at some point. But I found out that they were a sponsor of the show.
+
+[43:50] We love them. Uh great guys, you know, all all best, all love. So but I love that little dig, right? Yeah. Save 500 bucks.
+
+[43:57] I figured they're targeting two very different markets there, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[44:03] Uh just thought it was fun. Anyway. So uh and uh and uh by the way, I hope I Michael I wanted to force him to come on the show today, but he had to go back uh back home. But I hope to get all of those guys maybe back on the radio here at some point, uh, and then you guys can all ask questions of them. Okay.
+
+[44:17] Uh before I go to the last question, since I can go a little long, let's talk a little Africa stuff. So when I was in uh Senegal, I think the most striking thing I'm just talking food now, right? Yeah. The the most striking thing uh about the food was there seems to be a uh much more of a continuum b uh between uh the uh unfermented and the fermented in West African food than we would get in the States, right? So a lot more fermented grain products, like a lot more products of uh fermentation in all of their grays.
+
+[44:47] Was that your experience down in Cameroon as well? Yeah, man. At those temperatures, everything just starts fermenting, you know. Right, but it's all done in other words, like it's like part of the flavor. So, you know, like porridges will be fermented.
+
+[44:58] Yeah. Uh, you know, so you they have like uh they have a this awesome millet um porridge called Flamday in uh in Senegal that is um you know it's fermented millet porridge and it's served with fermented kind of thin milk yogurt on top and like a little bit of sugar. And it's great. Yeah what I mean. And is the flavor that you don't uh get here.
+
+[45:18] Or you know, the the main starches that uh, you know, will be made into uh gruels, uh you know, or batters fermented and then uh and then cooked off, you know, so like various fermented uh foo foos and things like that. Oh yeah. But one of the interesting things I had that's from Cameroon, and maybe you remember the name of it, uh 'cause I can't remember the name of it because I I couldn't write it down. I had it was very interesting, and it was uh it was manioc, cassette. Oh, I love it in sticks like gummy like a rice cake?
+
+[45:46] Yes. Had the texture of mochi but it's fermented. Yeah. Do you have this? Yes.
+
+[45:50] What's the name of it? Well in Cameroon there are a lot of different names but the most common was one was just baton de manioc which just means manioc stick. Right? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[45:58] So uh they have a real bouncy texture like mochi, right? I love it. And they're fermented and they're th like the first bite you're like, am I gonna like this? But they're s freaking addictive. Amazing.
+
+[46:09] Yeah. So but here's the interesting thing. The particular one I had had been you know made by the cook was house made. And the particular fermented flavor of this one was unlike most of the other fermentations that I had had in that it didn't taste like a lactic acid bacteria to me, the one I had. It tasted the most similar uh fermentation taste I could put on it was salt risen bread.
+
+[46:32] And salt risen bread, which was talked about on the show before is like a very kind of like weird old like kind of rare bread technique from the Appalachians where the main fermentation agent is Clostridium Phringens which normally is a foodborne you know illness pat you know it's pathogen caused a lot of problems. But um when the one time I made salt raised bread one or twice it this had a s that similar fermented flavor but I haven't had time to research it yet. But did you notice in Cameroon that they had a different kind of fermented flavor from other things or is it the same or it's hard for me to say man. It's just uh it's just a great taste man I love it. Alright so I'm gonna go back and do some research on that.
+
+[47:10] Uh the other thing you know that they they have there's so many fermented products over there. And my one of my favorite fermented products in the world it was in Cameroon. Which one? Palm wine. Oh yes.
+
+[47:19] You know what? The palm wine and first of all, Senegal is predominantly Muslim, right? And in fact, they had me serve an alcoholic beverage at this event and didn't put a French translator next to me. And so I was in a position, my French isn't my accent's not good enough to immediately tell people. So these people descended on us and then people started picking up the drink and drinking it.
+
+[47:39] It was made with mod which is an ama M A D D or M-A-A-D or M-A-D-E, which is an amazing fruit from Casimance, which is in southern Senegal. It's an amazing fruit fruit. It has like kind of like it tastes like kind of passion fruit and like kind of got but a lot of acidity more acidic tart in the way lime is tart, not in the way that Pash food's tart, but like passion fruit and a dump bunch of different other tropical fruits, like maybe some Guanambana flavor in it. And I made a juice out of it. You know, I tried to do Booker and Dax but like low text style, so like I strained it.
+
+[48:07] It was really pure and mixed it with rum. Fantastic. I wish we could get this fruit here. Anyway, so they're picking it up and like one person does a spit take I'm like it's got alcohol in it. And then like they eventually posted a like a hostess next to me who literally just stood there like wagging her finger back and forth like no no I'm like well you know don't do that.
+
+[48:25] It's not poisonous. You know and some of the people here aren't aren't aren't you know Muslim. They can have it but I I was like I was like what what what is going wrong with my life that I'm here in a Muslim country trying to serve alcohol to people. Like it's exactly like the worst thing it could happen. But the drink was in fact delicious.
+
+[48:41] Do they have netatu in in Cameroon or no? I don't know what netatou is Cameroon. Uh netatu is the fermented uh seeds of uh some uh acacia tree and uh it's amazing stuff uh the I forget the the genus name but the species of it is big lobosa big lobosa name uh sick name. Netta too big lobosa. Like uh but it has a taste that's it's used in a lot of stews like oh and like other things like Tibu Gen, which is like the traditional, you know, national Senegalese dish.
+
+[49:12] But it has um in it uh it has the flavors of like coffee and chocolate and black bean. So it's like really kind of and it's it's uh boiled and fermented. Uh you know, boil the boil the uh the seeds and the pods, ferment them and then salt them and let them dry. Uh fermented onion that that's used in things that put in balls, fermented fish is famous like geg, fermented conch, yet, which is amazing. But like all these fermented things.
+
+[49:36] But what people don't uh I mean the smells in the market can be overpowering, but the foods aren't at all like that overpowering. They're just really, I thought really delicious, uh really interesting, unique flavors, and I'm definitely gonna be working with them in the future. You know what I mean? Yeah. And the camera the one Cameroonian restaurant I went to, the food was amazing.
+
+[49:54] I'm can't wait to go to the Cameroon uh area there. I've heard it's like just the the fruits and vegetables and stuff, just good stuff, yeah. There's an insane culinary diversity in that country. Yeah, I mean, there's just a lot going on in West Africa in general. So I just had the the very like the smallest taste of it going to uh Senegal, and I hope to be going back at at some point.
+
+[50:12] I think it's one of the the most uh undiscovered collection of cuisines in the world. Well, West African cuisine. You know, that's in in part, you know, and all of sub-Saharan Africa, frankly, you know what I mean, is like that. And that's the reason uh that we were doing this thing. Pierre Cham, uh, you know, uh friend of friend of ours who uh you know had a restaurant Grand Dakar in uh Brooklyn is from Senegal, and uh, you know, uh I I'd spoken to him about organizing a series of trips a couple years ago and he finally made it happen, even though you know I I have you know I've been too busy, I haven't done it.
+
+[50:41] But the the basic idea is is that in Africa when foreigners come they feed them non-traditional food because they assume that you know that you know, Western or you know, with like Euro Euro and American style folks don't want the traditional food. Yeah, right? Which is as far as like people nowadays, like people like myself or other like gastro tourists or you know, uh gastro tourism, which is a big thing, they don't want fake food. You know, like I say, if you if I want French food, I'll go to France. If I'm gonna fly somewhere, I wanna learn about the food that's from there, right?
+
+[51:11] Uh so there's that. They're showing people there that outsiders respect the indigenous stuff and that that's what they should do. And then there's the flip side is that we don't know hardly anything about it, and there's a lot to learn. There's as much diversity and interest and amazing stuff going on there as, you know, any one of the Asian cultures that everyone here knows all the minutia of, or any one of the European cultures that everyone knows all the minutiae of the food products from, right? And yet there's not the exposure uh to it and therefore not that level of interest.
+
+[51:41] So when I went there I did a talk actually, and I tried to point out like, look, you know, in uh in here in the US, I was like, take a look at Sean Brock, who's been doing like high level work with you know, specifically South Carolina stuff, right? And so he's doing some amazing work, but that's you know, not that much of a stretch because he's you know here and people, you know, respect that's going on. I was like, okay, well, you know, look at uh, you know, twenty years to ten years ago even, ten years ago, who thought about Danish food? Right. Did you?
+
+[52:08] No, no. Now all that stuff's now all the rage. Why? Because of Rennie Radzepi. So I put Rennie Radzeppi up and I put Alex uh Atla from uh DOM in uh Brazil, who's like, you know, everyone in South America looks at what happened at that restaurant and how he's using uh incredibly local products to do this really high end work.
+
+[52:26] So he's not doing French work uh that happens to have a couple local ingredients. He's like using modern cooking techniques and using incredibly local ingredients. And the advantage is is it can't be copied. You can't copy that restaurant somewhere else because you don't have access to the ingredients. Same goes for Noma, same goes for uh Sean, you know, down in uh in uh South Carolina, is they have cuisines that are respected the world over and that can't be copied, so you need to go travel to have it.
+
+[52:51] And you know, I said that this may seem irrelevant to you, as it says to people, in a country where you know, a huge percentage of you know your population is suffering from problems like iron deficiency, you know what I mean, uh and other things. But in fact, we can you can you know you could generate some good revenue if you you know if you do it. I don't know. Uh and of course, introducing people to these these culinary sort of treasures around the world is one of the major goals of the Museum of Food and Drink. Oh yes, oh yes, so much so, yes.
+
+[53:21] Um anyway, so we'll talk more about maybe some of the other like Baobab. Do they have Baobab stuff down here? Oh, it's my favorite tree in the world. That's a good tree, right? That's an awesome tree.
+
+[53:29] Baobab. It's it's called something like bouilly or something in Wolof, but I don't know what it's called down on the camera. But it yeah, it's a guy they use every part of the dang tree, and plus they're just really cool looking. They're amazing. Yeah.
+
+[53:39] So we'll talk more about this. Uh, you know, I have some I don't even bring it with me, the bailo bab candy. I'll bring you some. I I still think I still have some left. I'm not sure.
+
+[53:45] Okay. Last question on the way out. Uh, and then on the way out, remember Joe, we're gonna play uh our commercial uh break sponsors because I didn't go to a commercial break today. You got it. Uh SB writes in, says, Greetings from Paris.
+
+[53:58] Alright. Yeah, Paris. The uh fourth season of Top Chef has just ended here in France, and I wanted to get your views on culinary competitions in general. So already it sounds like a good question, right? Right?
+
+[54:10] Yeah. Uh more specifically, do top chef or iron chef like shows really crown good cooks, or is it more of a mix of luck, contestant personality, etcetera? What do you think of the professional competitions, such as the beaucoup d'or that's the uh the Bokus of Gold, as we say here in the in the US of A the Pacry World Cup or the MOF which sp stands for uh oh something may you know something over your francaise the the anyway like butt kicking of Frenchness which by the way isn't just for chefs it's for any sort of there's a whole list of crafts that you can have MOF in France uh and others also feel free to say bad things about Hervé Tisse okay SB well uh he is actually one of the very few people in the food world that I don't have a compunction just saying bad things about because he uh A doesn't care whether or not Americans say bad things about him and B he is a huckster charlatan uh and says crazy false things all the time and I always hold up against him Harold McGee who is uh you know uh awesome so they're kind of like opposites you know what I mean yeah yeah Ervete who thinks that uh cooking an egg in an oven is a good way to measure how it responds to temperatures which whatever don't don't you know what SB don't get me started don't get me started because then you know I only have a couple minutes to answer your your regular question. So my thing on this is is that uh contests contests clearly measure something the question is what do they measure right so you know one thing you can look at is uh you know which ones do chefs watch right so chefs uh used to I don't know if they still do uh watch Iron Chef like they like it right that was one of the very first uh contest shows that chefs actually wanted to be on, right? So Wiley, uh, who you know didn't was like I don't food TV, I hate food TV.
+
+[56:09] He doesn't talk like that. But anyway, but he said that uh why do I always use voices that aren't people like anything like the people that I'm talking about? Is it just I don't know why? I don't know why. Uh anyway, uh uh when he got the opportunity to do Iron Chef was like, yes, I want to do it.
+
+[56:22] Everybody has respect for the uh uh or you know, again, I haven't spoken to people about it in a while, but respect for the Iron Chef brand. Um and it is a mixture of personality, right? Because a lot of it's about uh, you know, you have to talk to the judges. It's you know, there's some sales shit, you know, sales, you know, selling that's going on when you're talking, but it it also is real cooking task, and you know, you do interesting stuff and it's and it's respected. Um, you know, uh a lot of chefs have done top chef masters, and the reason they do it isn't necessarily because they like the format of the of the show.
+
+[56:57] I mean, to be very um, you know, kind of blunt, uh, you get a big pop in the restaurant after you do the show, whether you win or you lose, right? So it's good for business to do it, and it's good for in and it's a it's kind of a mark that you've done it that allows you to then do other things. So it's there's an advantage to doing it. You know, and what does it measure? I don't know.
+
+[57:19] You know, like you know, does it measure like how much you would like the food that someone cooked had were they thinking about the food beforehand? You know what I mean? So when you're put in a situation where I so Iron Chef, for those of you that don't know, okay, iron when you do Iron Chef, it's not like someone's like uh walks up to you and says, uh widgety grubs, and then it's the first time you've heard that this widgety grubs, and then you have you create all these amazing dishes in an hour from widgety grubs, right? Because if those iron chefs could actually do that, then I would, you know, I would quit my job and spend all of my time just bowing at their knees. You know what I mean that's in fact not what happens on Iron Chef.
+
+[58:02] What happens on Iron Chef is you're given a list of of three or four I forget what it is possible uh things that it could be and you practice those recipes a bunch of times to make sure you can clock in in under an hour that's what happens now uh it there's an extreme advantage to the Iron Chef because they're used to the kitchen and a lot of inefficiency comes from not being used to a kitchen but that but there you have it so uh so like it but still you know it it's a lot different from cooking in your own element with ingredients that you choose yourself and these things like chopped where you'd have no idea what's going on are extremely different. So someone winning in that circumstance isn't the same thing as someone who would make them necessarily the most delicious food at their restaurant or even at your house because at your house time management isn't as important as it is in Iron Chef. Iron Chef is as much about time management as it is about anything else. Because in Iron Chef the goal really is to produce a bunch of impressive crap in an hour. You know what I mean?
+
+[59:01] So it's like really a time management thing which is actually a fantastic measure of a chef. Chef needs good time management. Not necessarily uh the best indicator of who is in absolute terms the best cook right so I mean these are they're all measuring different things and you have to look now things like the I also you know think that most outside accolades are kind of absurd because again they're also not necessarily measuring things that might be important in the real world that said MOF is pretty badass. You know what I mean? Yeah, anyone that has an MOF, you can pretty much guarantee that they're a badass.
+
+[59:34] Saying Boku's door, if you win the Boku's door, you're a badass. I mean, like, that's all there is to it, just because it's incredibly, incredibly difficult, right? So if someone climbs Mount Everest without oxygen, right, are they the world's best human being? No, but it's pretty badass. I mean, I think it's I think it's personally dumb to try and climb climb Mount Everest.
+
+[59:54] And I also myself wouldn't want to spend the amount of time in my life it would take to get close to uh uh winning any one of these competitions, if I even could. You know what I mean? But they are a measure of badassery. What do you think? Uh I don't know if you know about this, know this about me, Dave, but I actually competed in a cooking competition once.
+
+[1:00:11] Yeah? Almost 100,000 making a burger. How what how was the burger? Uh I mean, the thing is, this speaks to your point. I'm not a great cook.
+
+[1:00:19] I'm you know, I can practice something and do it well eventually, and that's precisely what I did in this situation. It was actually a Sutter home burger competition. The prize was $100,000. I came in second place, like lost by one point out of the 235. So what do you get?
+
+[1:00:32] Just like a boatload of Merlot? I got nothing. No, nothing. Actually, the second prize was $500. So it's a hundred thousand first pri first place, then five hundred dollars.
+
+[1:00:41] Third prize you're fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you know, I basically I think it's it's how a measure of how well you play the rules of that particular game. Yeah, also, yeah, in bar competitions, a lot of it's about the pattern and the speech and kind of what you do and how well you can smooch the judges.
+
+[1:00:54] And to be honest, like it depending on like some things are, you know, uh judges are incredibly biased, you know, and you could just have uh a bad judge and you can have this. So, you know, they yes, they do measure something, uh, but take take you know anything like that with a grain of salt. I personally detest competitions. Unless they are unl like the only competitions that I that I kind of enjoy are ones that are quantitative in nature that you can win or you can lose. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:01:26] Like who's in contest? Juicing Contests, which I lost, unfortunately last time I was in one, and embarrassed myself in front of my kids, and my kids have vowed to uh revenge me later. I was embarrassed myself, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See?
+
+[1:01:39] There you go. And uh, you know, or you know, soccer game, who gets the most goals. Anyway, but that that's me. Uh, but I'm a curmudgeon and a weasel and uh and a hard person to to deal with. Uh so uh more next week.
+
+[1:01:53] Thanks, Peter, for coming in. Ready for the commercial break and on out with cooking issues. Do you want to become a more creative cook? Are you interested in cutting edge cooking techniques? Do you find the science of cooking fascinating?
+
+[1:02:08] You could buy modernist cuisine, or you can save yourself four hundred and fifty dollars and check out chefsteps.com. Founded by Chris Young, Ryan Matthew Smith, and Grant Krille, all alumni of the creative team behind Modernist Cuisine. Chef Steps is loaded with reliable recipes, thorough step-by-step demonstrations, and supported with clear explanations of the underlying science that answers the why behind the how. And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. And Chef Steps is entirely free to learn.
+
+[1:02:52] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[1:03:14] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out ChefSteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org, a nonprofit member supported radio station.
+
+[0:21] We're millions strong. With folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education. We are entertainment. We are the future of food.
+
+[0:31] May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show.
+
+[0:54] Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a vertical speech in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined in the studio uh again, uh normal we're normal style today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:44] How are you doing, Stas? Okay. Yeah? Yeah. Jack decided not to join us today.
+
+[1:48] I don't know what that's all about, but we have Joe. Hey Joe, how are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you guys? I'm doing alright.
+
+[1:53] I was listening to the uh little blurb we have at the uh beginning there. And you know they they have a word for something that's both entertainment and information. It's edutainment. Isn't that right? Yeah.
+
+[2:04] Edutainment. Yeah, sounds right. So we edu edutain what how would you say that? Edutainable? Edutainment?
+
+[2:11] Anyway, whatever. Anyway, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Hope to be joined uh soon on the telephone with uh the uh one of the sponsors from today's show, Chris Young from uh Chef Steps and Modernist Cuisine. And in fact, he's a um bit of a coffee nut.
+
+[2:30] So I have some coffee questions that I put off uh from last time and some also I think ones from this time. So I'm gonna hold off on those until Chris calls in so I can get him to weigh in on as well. By the way, Stas, how did uh Mark's uh barbecue, his Italian barbecue go? Really well. Yeah?
+
+[2:43] Lots of people. It raised a lot of money, I think. Yeah? Uh like uh what how was how was the food? Pretty okay.
+
+[2:49] Oh, Stas with her with her uh Ray Ray Ray reviews of everything. Okay. Hey, uh, we have a caller. Oh my god. All right, caller.
+
+[3:00] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Hey Dave, this is Chris from Seattle. How are you? Hey, doing all right, doing all right. So uh Joe, this is Chris Young, our sponsor from today.
+
+[3:08] Oh yes. Do we have the opportunity to take other calls in as well or or no? Uh we have one line open still, so all right. So for those of you that want to pester Chris with any of your modernist and or non modernist, and or when he was working at Fat Duck and or gliding, because he's a glider pilot. If you have any uh I didn't realize you knew that.
+
+[3:30] Oh yeah, oh yeah. So if you have any questions relating to any of those things, uh call on in. How you doing, Chris? I'm doing well, man. How are you?
+
+[3:38] Yeah, it's been a while. Yeah, I know. When you when are you in New York next? Uh I don't know. When you uh when are you gonna invite me out for drinks.
+
+[3:45] Oh, you are always welcome at the bar for drinks, Chris. But uh I uh uh well I've just about recovered from my last trip to New York, so uh when I when I lose any sort of a judgment, I'll be back out. But uh exactly. Well, so now are you still spending all of your time in Seattle? Or sh now where is Chef's B sh uh Chef Steps?
+
+[4:03] It's based in several locations or how's it working? No, we are in we're a we have a four thousand square foot space in Seattle's Pike Place Market overlooking the water, and so we've built out our own experimental kitchen and and tooled it up. We have our software developers and and entire production team here. We do have a bit of a hardware engineering lab just south of Seattle in Georgetown and uh a couple employees uh in Chicago and LA, but other than that, we're here. Nice.
+
+[4:32] Well I have to come out and visit you guys sometimes. Yeah, you absolutely should. I I was thinking we maybe need like a an East Coast, West Coast uh uh cocktail challenge. We we've we've got we've got our own uh fairly talented bar bar staff here as well. Oh yeah?
+
+[4:46] Well, I'm down for a challenge. What would the challenge be? Uh I I I know you well it it's your show. Uh what what do you think it should be? Man, I don't know.
+
+[4:56] I mean uh you know that my particular my particular bent is towards things that uh look somewhat normal. Uh huh. Like Stas, what do you think of a good challenge would be? I'm actually I need a good challenge. I was just saying the other day, like I need a new cocktail problem to solve, not just a new ingredient or taste, but it's a whole new problem to solve.
+
+[5:16] Can you think of any, Chris? Or should we leave this open to our readers? Like what what or listeners rather? I I I'd actually like to hear from your from your viewers. I've always found uh I certainly find in our forum that the best the biggest challenges tend to come from unexpected places.
+
+[5:29] Yeah. Although although being barbecue season, uh you know I'm certainly have you done much with uh with smoke and cocktails. In drinks? No, I'll tell you why there's been a a bunch of people who have done a lot of work with it already and so you know I I I tend to do the hardest work in places where I think there's a lot a lot lot more work to do, but there is a lot more you know the a lot of the problems I think I have with people when they've smoked the cocktails is they take they tend to use uh they tend to use uh kind of those uh those uh small format uh smoke generators and uh when they when when you over smoke a drink with that it tends to take on more of kind of the over phenolicy burnt uh flavors from it and it can be hard for those it can be hard for people to dose I mean I think the best results I've seen are actually from more of the smoky flavor off of charred chips and whatnot. I've seen I've seen good results off of that and had good results off that obviously smoke and alcohol go together.
+
+[6:29] I mean have you done any good experiments with it or not? Well yeah we just uh we just did a cocktail uh we've done a couple things we did uh we did one where we take charred oak chips and we pressure infuse it with an ISI siphon uh um uh to basically get uh a rapid aging of the of the bourbon and and that sort of smoky flavor and that's that's fantastic and we have another cocktail where we uh we use charred cinnamon sticks at some uh a cocktail we call church old breakfast yeah how and how's that one come out no that uh that one's delicious. Um, I will happily drink that just about any day. I've had good luck with the ISI and uh and oak doing like a semi char semi-oak at the same time. But my favorite way to add wood is of course to take an age spirit that I like, rotovap it so that I have the uh I have the oak left over and then add it back to my other unaged stuff.
+
+[7:22] I mean that's stuff that's fantastic stuff it's a little bit pricey and out out of the range of most people working, but Hey Chris and Dave, we have uh a caller for both of you. Oh yeah? Yeah. All right, caller, you're on the air. What's up?
+
+[7:34] Hey, uh this is Iboda collin from Silver Spring, Maryland. How you doing? Um good, good. Uh so I had a qu I had a couple of questions uh for you and for Chris. Uh first I'd like to say, uh, you know, just that's really impressive, uh it's an amazing, amazing resource.
+
+[7:50] I have minor Susan and Minor's within at home, but it's always fantastic the videos. Just the the breakdown that everything is done on there. Really really great work. So thank you for that. Well thank you.
+
+[8:03] Um so I my friend and I are throwing kind of like an ice cream party uh tomorrow. And we didn't have time to do a lot of side by side tests with one of the recipes that we were doing, but uh one of the things we were doing was a recipe from the uh Humphrey Locum restaurant in uh I think San Francisco. It looks like an ice cream book. And it's um strawberry and candied jalapeno. So the candied jalapeno we make by, you know, just uh taking out the seeds and the ribs and then just uh cooking it with simple syrup.
+
+[8:37] So we were kind of expecting that it would there would still be some heat left over in the jalapeno, but there really wasn't anything that we could discern, both in the jalapeno itself and then in the syrup, you know, that had kind of like the infusion afterwards. So we were wondering if that was because the the recipe was kind of imprecise, it was just like one jalapeno. So it didn't say how big, how much um and you know they can vary in terms of their heat. But is do you do you know if if if there's some issue that uh the caps and it gets kind of neutralized when you go through that process. Uh would it make a difference if we use more I I I'd like to I I want to get a little clarification here.
+
+[9:18] Is the halo is the jalapeno going in a dairy base and is that when you lose the heat or is it after you poached it in the sugar syrup that the heat seems to be diminished. Uh it seemed to be after the syrup it went in the syrup. I mean there was there was nothing there was no no trace of anything in the syrup either besides for the kind of the the um floral notes of the jalapeno itself. Did you eat the jalapeno did you eat a portion of the jalapeno beforehand to verify that it was indeed spicy? No, no we didn't but that you know that's that's a that's a fair point because it would milk kind of takes away the uh the heat right well the the the capsaicin is fairly soluble in in fat.
+
+[9:55] So when you when you put you know when you put the the the the the chilies in an an ice cream base y absolutely it's gonna diminish the fat. I've made I've made habanero ice cream that would be un inedible if it if it wasn't dissolved in in that much fat. But if you're losing the heat during in the syrup, there's really only two things that come to my mind and Dave jump in here if you see it differently. But one, my best bet would be my my first guess would be the jalapeno you had just wasn't very hot to begin with. Yeah.
+
+[10:21] Um and the second thing is I don't know how much syrup you were using, but you're going to dilute some of the capsaicin down in that syrup and and if you take a fairly small amount of cact taste can be split and dilute it down in a large amount of syrup um it's not gonna your end result's not gonna be very hot. So if you want a little bit more heat, I might look uh you know, I might look to using something other than a jalap a jalapeno. Yeah, but that said, if you take a jalapeno and slice it thin, even in a relatively like if it's a if it's a you know a good you know a good one with some strength, and you slice it relatively thinly and do a boil out with it in the sugar syrup, you should be able to pick up a good bit. I mean the good thing about sh you know sugar syrup is you can continue to heat it for a while. So you know what I typically do with uh heat I tend not to use uh green when I add heat to things most of the time uh in drinks and and in uh ice creams and things like this I'm I want to add a more of a red flavored heat so I tend to use red things.
+
+[11:21] Uh so but you s just keep tasting it and what'll happen is is I is it'll it'll be the right amount of spice and then eventually it'll over it'll over extract and get too spicy. So I just keep tasting tasting tasting and then throw it through a coarse chinois to strain it out as soon as it's at the place where I like it. Um and that that tends to be what I what I do. It's almost impossible to measure uh peppers because they're so variable with regard to their heat levels even from pepper to pepper unless you're dealing with something preposterously hot like a habanero where you know that it's gonna hit you with a wild fat. But even then you can be mistaken.
+
+[11:58] You can get an ahi dulce which looks for all the world like a habanero and smells like it but doesn't taste like it very much and isn't hot hardly at all. Um you know so like peppers can be extremely extremely variable. Uh and so you know I would always get a couple of extra chop chop them, throw them in while while you do the heat. And be aware that what Chris says is right, when you then mix it down with your with your milk and cream base, it's going to reduce the heat even further. So you might want to just have some spicy crap sitting around that you can dose back in the spice with.
+
+[12:29] But you have to be careful because usually then when you're dosing something back, you're dosing if you're dosing a dry spice, let's say those things get radically hotter when you infuse them. So the red pepper flakes you get at a pizza parlor, you can eat them on their own without too much trouble. You infuse them for a long time in a liquid and then they can start blowing your top off correct right Chris? I mean you're you're Yeah no the the basic issue is when they're dry you tend to swallow them before they have time to to rehydrate and start diffusing out the capsacan. If you rehydrate them first so that the capsacan can can easily hit the soft tissue in your mouth you're gonna you're gonna be a very unhappy person.
+
+[13:02] Yeah I mean that's the classic mistake people do when they're making sauces is they'll throw in a bunch of dry chili flakes and they're like oh it's not hot enough and then they'll throw in some more gi dry chili flakes. Well it's still not hot enough. And then they'll throw some more and then and then 15 minutes later they're done you know yeah you gotta you got you gotta wait and you gotta give it time. Yeah. That's not as much of a problem as fresh but oh thank you I had uh I had a drink question also uh maybe you know up your up your challenge.
+
+[13:27] I was wondering if uh we wanted to kind of pair some of these things with alcoholic drink. Um and then I was thinking did you have you ever tried to do like an alcoholic version of an icing float? Oh yeah. Oh yes. Oh and so you made kind of like an alcoholic um like a a fizzy frothy drink and then you know just dump the ice cream in there.
+
+[13:48] Yep. Delicious anything in particular any any good combinations that you'd recommend? I mean there's the obvious ones root beer there's some couple of good root beer uh liqueurs out there or you can make your own root beer flavor and you can do a classic root beer float. That's probably the first one I ever did. Uh you can mean I mean, I would imagine that uh you know, a recarbonated rum and coke would make a good float if you want traditional flavors.
+
+[14:10] Uh I've done um, you know, if you like vinegar cocktails, uh fit like a really nice fresh fig ice cream with uh with like a slightly vinegared carbonated soda cocktail is nice and works as a non-dessert kind of a thing. Um but there's I mean, Chris, have you ever done uh what what flavors do you try with that? Uh I haven't done a I I haven't done a ice cream, an alcoholic ice cream float, but I'm I'm immediately thinking of how to how to do something like a boozy creamsicle. Oh yeah. Well, we have a we have a drink now.
+
+[14:43] I mean like like uh carbonated uh well Jin, I don't know how Jim would go with ice cream. You might have to switch to a different spirit, but uh orange. We have a drink on the in the bar menu now that's uh clarified orange orange juice, uh, where we add a citric uh and malic blend to it to give it the acidic characteristics of lime juice. And we use that we use that in a daiquiri variant where we milkwash the daiquiry to give it a nice heavy, so it tastes like an orange julius. We call it Dr.
+
+[15:08] J. But that orange base, uh, we don't clarify for the daiquiri because we want it to be foamy, but it clarified. You can you I've made uh uh kind of gin, like a gin, so I would make like a celery, a celery ice cream or sorbet, and then do like uh clarified orange with malic and citric uh and like liquor of your choice, carbonated carbonated and uh poured over could be quite nice. You know what I would try? I've been playing we've but we've been playing with this a bit lately is is uh old school phosphate and uh uh using phosphoric acid as is our seasoning with various citrus citrus juices and then carbonating them.
+
+[15:46] And I I've kind of got a hankering to to sort of make an alcoholic mandarin mandarin soda that's that's getting a tested extra acidity, not only from the citric, but but of uh phosphorus. Have you ever worked with phosphoric acid, Dave? Uh yeah, but the problem is that Nastasha hates it, and so like whenever I want them go towards uh well, in that case, we're we're done. No, I mean but the well, I mean the issue is is that yeah, well, Chris, you know this. Like you you you if someone asks you to work on something, you work on something, but then if the people around you are constantly saying how they hate things, it's like makes it kind of a pain in the butt to work with.
+
+[16:19] The same way that like we don't do a lot with cherries because I'm allergic to it, you know. So it's that's a that's a horrible thing to be allergic to. I know, I know it is. I uh they're certainly my favorite, and have you not had therapy for that? I I I think I'm you know what it is, it's uh it what happened was is that you know, I have uh I'm being punished.
+
+[16:43] I'm being punished for all of those years of making fun of people with allergies, and so they're like, oh, world's greatest fruit. Well, now you're allergic to it. Enjoy. I think that's what happened pretty much. So this is karma.
+
+[16:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, bad, bad, uh, bad karma. When you are carbonating things, be aware when you're carbonating um is that you can probably go h a little bit higher alcohol and a little bit higher sugar than you would for a drink drink, but um the more alcohol you have, the harder it's gonna be to carbonate probab uh properly. When we're making carbonated drinks uh at the bar for consumption, uh you know, straight drinking consumption, we use uh ratios of between one point uh seven five uh uh two up to two ounces, that's sixty mils of uh of high proof spirit in a total uh cocktail base of five ounces just for for your you know general edification. Anything stiffer than that, and it's gonna be more difficult to um it's gonna be more difficult to carbonate properly and also when something stiffer than that is balanced out with acids and sugars it's gonna tend to taste syrupy and the first couple of bites might be good but they I mean the drinks might be good but as it goes down it's gonna be more cloying. So just so you know now if you're working on a float you could probably go a little a little harder than that but also realize that an alcoholic based soda will foam even more than a regular soda when poured on an ice cream base.
+
+[18:09] Really? Yeah well because alcohol tends to foam anyway like when you're carbonating cocktails it foams so much you know so my it like I there's already a foaming issue with it. And then obviously floats are a foaming issue. So it's just you know it can become a big foam. It's delicious though, but it can be a big kind of a a foamy mess.
+
+[18:29] Alright Chris while you're on the air here let's I have some coffee questions in. Uh so first of all uh we had a question last week someone was asking about uh frothing frothing milk without getting an expensive frother and I'm actually you know in uh modernist cuisine you guys have a recipe where you stabilize uh foam with uh with whey protein isolate and uh sucroester sucrose esters. Uh will that actually make latte art foam with an air latte? Is it dense enough? Does the sucrose make it uh fine enough?
+
+[19:01] Uh the the whey protein helps you probably more than the sucrocesters. So you you could probably leave the sucrostors out of that and and and still make it work. It's possible to make a uh a a latte foam that you can pour latte art with using an aeros latte. There's a fair amount of technique. What I've found is you generally sort of uh you need to be warming it as you go, and you want to be working though the the aero latte wand really sort of more at the bottom.
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+[19:27] You're gonna try to drag a little bit of air in, but then mostly what you're trying to do is just have the aero latte sort of buried deeper and constantly sort of breaking up the the bubble so that you're getting a smaller and smaller microfoam. So I tend to be moving the aero latte around the bottom of the pot of the pot, slowly bringing it towards the surface. But I've sort of brought the aero latte to the surface at about the same time that the milk is the right temperature. The real thing that most people make a mistake with, in my experience, if you want to get a a really wet foam that's velvety and silky and you can't really see any individual bubbles, and it's gonna you know, sort of have that viscous pour to it, is don't overheat the milk. The milk really shouldn't be much hotter than about 45, 50 Celsius at the most.
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+[20:14] If you really want to have uh have some milk that's really easy to pour uh pour latte air with. If you start getting the milk up to like 60 Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit, it's gonna be really dry, and when you go to pour it, all the foam's gonna slide back to the pitcher and hot milk's just gonna come out beneath it. Um and so I found that that's really almost more important than anything else you add to the milk. So you can't get it. You can't get it to the temperatures that you would get if you were actually pulling it from a steam wand.
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+[20:39] When I pull it from a steam wand, I very rarely go much hotter than that myself, but I don't tend to drink huge milky beverages. So, like if I drink a traditional cappuccino or a uh or a five-ounce latte, um, I generally won't heat my mood much hotter than about 45 Celsius, and that gives me just this really nice milk texture. Almost every coffee shop I go into, I I I tend to have the opinion that they they oversteam the milk so that it's piping hot when you're carrying around this sort of bladder busting size coffee. Um, but for me that's not a very pleasant drinking experience. Well, like my wife, for instance, she likes the taste of the foamed on uh kind of lower temp, but she prefers the coffee to be hotter.
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+[21:19] There's no really no way around. I mean, like like can you do like a quick nuke and like not ruin you're just automatically ruined as soon as it's heated up. Well, the the thing to do there is you're your your your your espresso is gonna come out plenty hot. Yeah, nearly boiling, right? No, it's the milk, yeah.
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+[21:33] Yeah, it's the mouth. Have a hot cup. Um and and then don't if if you if you're gonna drown it in in a huge amount of milk, yeah, you you're you're hosed. Um you can probably get the with the steam wand, you could get to fifty fifty-five comfortably and still get a wet foam. Um but my experience is you go much hotter than that, the foam starts to get really unstable, it starts to get dry and it just isn't as pleasant to drink.
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+[21:56] I mean, I always pull uh I always pull like a hefty amount of uh hot water out of the hot water tap on my espresso machine before into my cup to preheat it. But is that not standard practice? Well, so uh I I suppose standard practice is is have the cups on the top of the espresso machine so that they're they're nice and hot. They they they you know, they design the machine so that the boiler heats uh heating the the top surface. But um if you want it really hot, yeah, just you know, d dose some of the boiling water out of the boiler into it.
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+[22:25] But more than anything else, I just like it when it's served in a in a in a warm cup. There's something really nice about how that feels when you're when you're drinking it. Well, that's also you know, cups in general, which is why, you know, paper cups are the devil. Yeah, but uh paper cups have the advantage that they go in your car real nice and uh and uh you know that that I I know that that's you know, more of a West Coast thing to drive around through your your drive through Starbucks and and get your your your your th what is it I think it's 30 some odd out Starbucks uh uh latte now. Wow.
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+[23:00] So you know that's with one double in it? That only has one double of coffee in it? Oh, I I I have no idea. It's like the big gulp of the latte world, and I think it's like two shots. Yeah, so it's I'm sure somebody can call in and correct us because I've never had it.
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+[23:18] Yeah, so that you never that doesn't happen in New York because here what you would have to do is walk past five Starbucks to get to your car, then drive to the Starbucks, double park, go into the Starbucks, get the thing, come back out, put it in your car, and then you could drink it for the next hour and a half while you look for your parking space again. Yeah. You're just reminding me of why I'm glad I don't live in New York. Yeah, but on the other hand, we walk everywhere. Okay, anyway.
+
+[23:43] So back back back on the coffee. Uh oh, by the way, so Scott from Guelph wrote in uh commenting on that question from last week, and uh Scott says, uh, I wanted to write in first thing on making decent milk foam without a steam wand on a high end espresso machine. I found a fairly good and cheap technique. You can buy a small French press style coffee maker, some specifically designed for milk. You add the cold milk to the bottom of the press so it comes up over the mesh uh mesh screen, and you rapidly pump the screen up and down in the milk and make it fairly dense and stable foam.
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+[24:10] You can then heat the milk inside the glass container in the nuke. Uh the foam doesn't overheat and pop since the air mixture doesn't absorb microwaves as well as the still liquid milk at the bottom. With my setup, it takes about 45 seconds to get to the proper temperature for a cappuccino, and the foam seems to work best if you use very cold skimmed milk, although you can get a richer but less impressive foam with higher fat milks. I do not like skimmed milk foams. What do you think about that technique, uh, Chris?
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+[24:31] I I think the uh the the biggest challenge I I would be concerned about is is as you sort of nuke it, essentially that you're gonna have the dry foam rise to the top and it's gonna drain out. So I I suspect with a lot of care and attention you can sort of swirl it and keep the foam wet and together, but to me uh I'm I'm I I I've seen the technique. I've never been able to get it to work where I can get a nice, evenly wet, dense foam from top to bottom of the pitcher that I can just free pour to get a nice rosette. But you know what it totally works. You don't even if you just want an okay milk foam and you don't want to spend a lot of money, you can use any French press to do that.
+
+[25:11] Uh skim milk does work best, but it tastes unpleasant in my in my opinion. I I'd use two percent. It's uh skim milk's a bad product. Let me just say this right now. Skim milk should not exist.
+
+[25:24] Why? It's horrible. It's just a nightmare. I mean, like, look, if you want to like dehydrate it and get the milk powder for use in something else, maybe. But why would you ever want mean it's horrible?
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+[25:33] You know, my 90 uh how old is he now? Ninety-four almost year old grandpa is is only drinks full fat milk. Like this, like you're not saving that much. It's just wretched. It's just a wretched, thin, gray, awful thing.
+
+[25:47] I gotta say, I'm sure it has some culinary applications, but as an actual product to consume, it's wretched. Do you disagree with me? I don't drink skim milk. Yeah, no, it's horrible. Uh so uh now uh Scott writes in also uh a separate issue we had, Chris, last week was uh someone wanted to uh serve a non-alcoholic uh drinks to their wife uh uh who is pregnant, and uh and so you know, ideas of drinks that you could sip for a while, uh, you know, and sort of instead of having an alcoholic drink.
+
+[26:16] Scott writes in, uh, there are dealcoholized wines that aren't appalling, but uh what I wanted to share was making your own drink out of the spice sumac sumac. Uh, this is an old idea and is usually referred to as sumac lemonade. You basically steep the sumac in hot or cold water, add sugar to taste. Sumac is high in malic acid, uh, and so has a wine-like bite to it. The flavor is somewhat woodsy and floral and makes a very refreshing summertime drink.
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+[26:37] Sumac grows wild around here. He's from Guelph, Canada. I wonder whether he's involved with the university. They have a great dairy department there. Um the flavor is somewhat woodsy and floral and makes a very refreshing summertime drink.
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+[26:46] Sumac grows wild around here, and many people harvest it themselves. Sumac trees grow on the sides of the road and they spread out as clones of the parent. The spice comes from the red cone-shaped spears that adorn the tree, and you are supposed to harvest them when the weather is dry or the malic acid gets washed off during the rain. I did not know that. I did not I did not know that.
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+[27:02] I've been tempted to ferment some sumac lemonade, but of course that won't help you if you are up the spout, which I learned last week means pregnant as well as broken or pawned. Uh keep up the awesome show. Scott, uh ac actually I love sumac. We uh in fact, one of the flavors of uh I shouldn't say this. Um we we have s we do a lot of sumac work, but just not for the public yet.
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+[27:21] I happen to love sumac a lot. But uh you work with a lot, Chris? Uh I haven't used sumac in a while. I I I enjoy it, but I uh you know, I think the last time I was using it was when I was working in sort of this classic French restaurant. We were using it with lamb, and and I think I made that dish a a few hundred times too many uh to want to keep working with sumac.
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+[27:42] Yeah, so you I mean, uh it's got a really distinctive flavor that that that's uh that's interesting. I guess uh I I've just never really had a reason to play with it. Yeah, it's not only malic, I think there's probably some oxalic in there as well. It's got that kind of like sorely kind of hit to it, too. Um but uh but I don't know that.
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+[28:00] That's just coming off the top of my head. But you know, it makes fan as you know, as Scott points out, it makes fantastic, uh it makes fantastic still, but it makes really fantastic sparkling drinks. Really good. So so something I've I've I've made in the past that I think is a great non-alcoholic attorney is is I'm I'm a huge fan of elder flower uh blossoms and uh maybe that's from my time in England because it's a pretty popular drink over there. But uh if you can get uh sort of elder flower cordial uh the the syrup or you can make your own a blend of that of lemon juice and then I'll make a a simple syrup infused with uh Douglas spur and a blend of of the lemon juice the elder flower cordial um and the Douglas fur syrup and then dilute it down with water and ice I think that's that's a fantastic combination that uh uh has a lot of sort of y you almost could think of it as sort of the the the wrestling of the faux wine world because it's got that that really aromatic bouquet a nice bit of acidity and and and a slight the the the slight resinous pine flavor is a little bit unexpected but quite pleasant.
+
+[29:01] Yeah I've never done pine and elder flower that sounds good though. I wonder is it really lemon juice I think to to bring the two together. But is there is there anything in someone do some research and make sure there's nothing in pine tea that pregnant people can't have uh but that sounds delicious. I'd like to I'd like to try that another good thing for sumac, we used to uh we used to grind uh sumac finer uh along with uh the salt and use it uh as a French fry spice it's really good on French fries. Uh you know it's it brings some of that acidity to it and uh it's almost like you know if you're not gonna if you're not gonna douse your French fries and ketchup sumac's nice I mean if you're gonna douse them in ketchup it's just really no point.
+
+[29:42] But um Hey Dave it's Jack. Hey Jack Hey so I see here women who are pregnant or could become pregnant are advised not to drink pine needle tea in general for fear it could cause abortion. Wow. And Jack, welcome. I didn't know you were in the studio.
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+[29:56] Here, yeah, hey, what's up? Hey Jack. Uh well, you know, t there y dare there you have it. But uh so good if you don't want to have alcohol, maybe not good if you're pregnant. Don't know.
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+[30:07] Or leave the p or leave the pine out. Yeah, leave the pine out. Leave the pine out. Because I know I've I've never done lemon and uh elder flower, but you zoo and elder flower I know is delicious. Uh with pear, pear juice would use you and elder flower, very good.
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+[30:18] Uh carbonate that sucker too. But here's something that you're gonna know uh more about again, Chris. Uh you got a collar, by the way, Dave. Okay, caller. We'll take the collar and then we'll go back to coffee.
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+[30:26] Caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, it's Chris Kohler from North Carolina. How you doing? Good. First I wanted to thank Chris for uh Chef Steps.
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+[30:34] He's always answering my questions on the forum, and it's a great resource that uh everybody that listens to this, you know, radio and that likes your blog would absolutely love. Thanks, Chris. Nice nice to actually hear your voice. Yeah. Uh it's it's great, you know, get into ask you guys a question.
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+[30:51] I just got a bunch of ramps and I want to know what to do with them. I've always kind of avoided them because, you know, I feel like they might be overhyped or that they're like, you know, a little too, you know, whatever, but uh what do I do with these things? Well, so Stas hates Nastasha hates ramps just because other people like them. This is just a caveat, right, Sus? That's right.
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+[31:10] Yeah, that's why I've always avoided them. All right, Chris, give me some ramp, give me some ramp, uh uh drop some. Well, there's there there's obviously the the pickled ramps, charred ramps. I I would uh you know, one of the things I would do is I I'd like to make a nice sauce from them. So I would ch I would char them slightly, uh pure them and turn them into a fluid gel.
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+[31:29] So do you have any agar or gel and gum? Yep, got agar. Um would you charm just on the grill or should I just use a blowtorch? Uh you could do it with a you could do it with a blowtorch. If you check out the charred rapini video on Chefsteps.com, you'll uh you'll sort of see a nice technique that that we use.
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+[31:44] And so I just give them uh uh a light charring, then then puree them. Uh I would let them down with a little bit of water rather than uh a stock, just because I think the flavor is fantastic. Uh adjust the seasoning. And then if you wanted sort of a a a thicker puree that that uh that you could drag or that would stand up and have some body to it. With agar, I'd probably set it with about one percent and then puree it um and and and sieve it.
+
+[32:15] Uh if you had gel-an gum, you might be able to go down to about 0.75% for a for a fairly thick puree. But what's nice about the fluid gel is it's not going to be gloopy or cloying in the mouth. It's gonna be very clean and really let the charge to ramp flavor come through. One thing though is definitely um don't add the salt or any acid to the puree until right before serving, or you're gonna end up just coloring this sort of vibrant green green appearance. Cool.
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+[32:39] Yeah, and uh one other thing in general when you're using ingredients like that is since since you're gonna ha since you're gonna charge extra for them and people want to know what they taste like and they're expensive and they only come around once in a while, usually you should use them in things that highlight them. I mean, that's you know, just common practice when you say clean. Yeah. You know, it's it's you know, the yes, that's true, and I agree with that. The other thing though is people can get a little bit overly precious.
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+[33:06] And so if you sort of that follow to its logical conclusion, you get this sort of farce of uh of of a of a cooked ramp on a plate with nothing else. Right. Um because it it's so special that we have to highlight it. It's like uh you can do a little bit more to it and and still really uh show off the ramp. What you might end up doing is composing a couple different textures.
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+[33:25] So the pickled ramp, the ramp puree, um, you know, some some some some very thinly sliced ramp, um, all of those could be could be really nice. What do you what do you call that dish, Mike? You call that ramp it up? I'll leave the puns to you. Yeah.
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+[33:40] Uh yeah, well uh again, we uh we at Booker Intact are the world expert punished. Uh yeah. All right. Well, I don't know what what do you like? What do you like for ramps?
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+[33:50] What do you like uh uh pairing ramps with? Well, I don't I don't I've never uh I've I never used them uh at the French culinary uh because I just never did. I would only ever cook them at home. And so then I usually just I just do them as uh as a side. I do like a c uh like a quick saute and then a little bit of sugar down like I would with uh asparagus, salt and like a little bit of correction with acidity at the very end as it comes out and just serve them kind of glazed and wilted like that.
+
+[34:18] But because I'm doing it at home, you know. Well, two two things just came to my mind, Chris, actually, is uh somebody on our forum mentioned that if you have a lot of ramps, if you want like a ten pound case, uh ramp kimchi, and that sounds fantastic. So that would be very cool to do. That sounds really good. The other idea that comes to mind is i it's gonna definitely shift the flavor a bit, but if you do end up making that ramp curee, enrich it with a little schmaltz, a little uh uh a little roast chicken fat.
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+[34:45] Um and and that's just gonna make it incredibly uh delicious. You just wanted to say schmaltz, Chris. I did. I I actually I have uh I have a a a notepad here with words that I want to get into our conversation. It's sort of the subliminal programming going on.
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+[35:00] Well schmaltz is a good one. You know, people don't have the schmaltz on the table anymore. That's like so old school. I think Sammy's Romanian is the last restaurant in New York where you can go have like uh the big thing of schmaltz on the table. Well, and it's it's really easy to do.
+
+[35:13] If you pressure, if you if you take like your roast chicken carcass and then pressure cook the heck out of it, you're gonna have all this fat on the top, and most people throw that out, which that's kind of a crime. I mean, you should you should skim that off and save it because roast chicken fat's awesome. Oh yes. Oh, yes, it is. It's delicious product.
+
+[35:33] Uh all right, so I hope that answers the ramp question. Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks, Chris. That's a great word. All right, thank you.
+
+[35:39] All right, so uh there's a schmaltz brewing company. Uh, that can't that can't be good. I don't want schmaltz in my beer, Jack. I do not want schmaltz. I mean, like I like I I will go places other people will not, but schmaltz in my beer is not one.
+
+[35:52] Although I will taste it. If if someone ever hears this who can get a hand uh their hand on a can of schmaltz beer, send it our way, and we'll definitely I'll eat I'll get bread and schmaltz and drink the schmaltz beer with it. Uh okay. All right, here we go, Chris. Coffee, right?
+
+[36:06] So remember for those of you that don't know, uh, I think uh because I think people don't really know, and this is actually an interesting question, although we shouldn't spend too much time on it because we have a bunch of actual questions to get through. But maybe we can take a quick break too, unless you want to squeeze this out. Yeah, let's squeeze this out for a second. So, like the uh in in the modernist cuisine, there are certain sections that different ones of you in the you know, in the big one had more of a hand in because it's kind of more of your thing. You had a giant hand uh in the the coffee section, correct?
+
+[36:33] This is why I'm pestering you with the coffee questions. Yeah, no, I I I I I'm I'm a big fan of coffee. I would like to say that I stood on the shoulder of some giant people like Jim Hoffman, uh World Greece Champ, and run Square Mile Coffee in London and Tim Wendelbow uh had some uh some really wonderful people uh help out extensively with that chapter. But uh we w it's at least something I'm passionate about, so we tried to make it a great chapter. Right.
+
+[36:58] So now there's two questions we have uh from last week that I didn't answer, one on mocha pots and one on aero presses. But before I get into it, let me just say that my my uh you know expertise, if you can call it that in coffee is almost exclusively related to uh espresso shots, because that's what I drink, and that's all I drink. Uh I drink a lot of it, but that's what I make, and that's what I what I think about uh a lot. Uh but before we even get into this, I think everyone uh should probably go check out if you don't mean modernist cuisine, I I read it the section on coffee actually today, uh, but also go to um look at VST Mojo to go and what they have done with uh like linking refractometers and initial uh coffee weights to kind of targeting where your brew is, and probably read uh Scott Rayo's book uh on uh everything but espresso if you're interested in kind of the mechanics of non-espresso brewing. Is it would you agree with that fact or no?
+
+[37:57] Uh I would actually recommend both of Scott Rayo's books. I think they're two of the best books written on the subject and uh certainly influenced uh our thinking on coffee. So but his everything but espresso book uh I think is the standard by which other books will be judged. I wish ours was that good. Right.
+
+[38:13] But I mean I so I mean the the key is and we're gonna talk here about aeropress and mocha pots, but the the key is to is to understand uh that each one of these things has uh a lot of variables involved in it, and each type of coffee maker that people still use on a regular basis can make a delicious cup of coffee. However, they're not interchangeable and they won't make the same cup of coffee. And so the the the question is figuring out how to control the variables accurately to get it consistent and the best of that style of coffee that you can get. Would you agree with that, Chris or no? Yeah, I I think that's what's interesting about it is you know, you have this raw material, but depending on how you extract the the literally hundreds, if not thousands, of compounds in it, you get a very different drinking experience.
+
+[38:58] And and to those who care about coffee, it can be incredibly interesting that something as simple as the difference between a pour over and a French press give you such a very different uh outcome. All right. Now, on the on the French press variant up to new newer style aeropress, the first question. Uh hopefully uh an easier question. This is also from uh person who doubled up on a question.
+
+[39:19] I recently acquired an aeropress and a burr grinder. Uh this is why the acquisition of additional materials would lead to a domestic dispute. So what we're told is he cannot purchase a more expensive uh machine other than the aeropress and the burr grinder that he has. Uh and I've been experimenting with different amounts of coffee, different grinds, and different water temperatures. Small changes seem to make a big difference to the taste.
+
+[39:38] I would greatly appreciate your comments on how the various factors affect the result. The AeroPress website suggests that making a very concentrated initial brew and watering it down will get a better result than adding more water. Why is this? Also, why does grind size seem to make such a difference? One post I found online recommends inverting the press and very carefully making sure that the foam on top of the coffee made its way into the final cup.
+
+[39:58] Although you don't like that stuff, right, Chris? That stuff that floats up. You're not a fan, right? I'm not a huge fan of breaking, I like to skim the raft off uh in the case of French press before uh before plunging it to prevent it from sort of overbrewing and over extracting while it sits on the table. Right, right.
+
+[40:16] Well, in fact, uh the person who wrote the question, Alex, also agrees with that because they found the results of the turning it upside down a bit oily and harsh. But perhaps my palate is immature, says Alex, or perhaps I need better beans. Any advice? I enjoy tinkering with different options, but would love to understand the basics of what's going on with different grind sizes, temperatures, and concentrations. Keep up the good work, Alex from Toronto.
+
+[40:34] Well, uh I mean very, very simply put, in uh in an aeropress, when you do the aeropress, I do I do a full stir down, let it sit and then and then do the press extraction. Is that what you do or no? I mean I thought that would be that would be what I do because you're putting it through a through a extremely fine membrane filter. So the idea of it sort of over extracting once you once you essentially uh uh um strain it as it were uh i i it's irrelevant so yeah a stir down there for even wetting of the grounds and a a more uh uh in and a sort of a more uniform extraction is gonna help this is one of these things where you can very easily start chasing your tail um and uh and I'll be further to say that I've I've used aero presses I I I like them I think they're interesting there's a lot of great techniques online um but I'm not an expert on air press because I don't make it all that often um you know a couple things that I can point out is the water temperature has a huge impact. Generally speaking the cooler your water the more acidic you're gonna get the hotter your water the more you'll tend towards the bitter side um something around ninety eight Celsius I think in the aero press folks actually recommend a slightly lower temperature um but something in the upper nineties is going to be about right you'll have to find where that sweet spot is for you with everything else held constant but in general as you lower the water temperature you're going to tend to find it more acidic and maybe a little bit under extracted and as it's uh as it's hotter water it's going to get a little more bitter and over extracted.
+
+[42:01] Right. And the finer the grind, the faster you will extract, and the coarser the grind, the slower finer. Same thing. Finer grinds tend to, you know, favor over extraction, coarser grinds five favor under extraction. That interacts with water temperature as does contact time.
+
+[42:17] So the problem is you kind of have to choose which of those you're going to keep fixed while you adjust the others, otherwise you start to get really befuddled and lose track of where where you are and what you're trying to tweak. And the in the in the aero press, the quantity of water you add to the quantity of coffee should not change the extraction appreciably because you're not getting close to any sort of equilibrium. That should just change how strong the coffee is relative to pure water. Would you agree with that or no? Yeah, it's going to change your brew strength.
+
+[42:47] And this is what the guys at Extract Mojo have done some phenomenal work is most people tend to tend to, you know, it's surprising how tight the range is that people actually consider sort of a well balanced cup. And you know, you can use a refractometer to actually quantify this and say that you actually want to get sort of you know an 18 or so percent uh extraction from from the grounds. Um that would be for espresso. I actually suspect it will be similar for uh for for aero press, but I've never really looked. Yeah, I mean the rail numbers are between around 18 and 22 for non-espresso, between eighteen and twenty-two, uh, you know.
+
+[43:26] And that varies a little bit culturally. Norwegians like it, you know, what I've heard is Norwegians and Scandinavians favor slightly higher. They also like to not slightly Americans, I think, are tend to be 18, 19 percent, although our friend Jeffrey Steingarden told me I'm a fool for liking 18%. Well, what does he like? Uh higher.
+
+[43:44] Yeah, it sounds like Jeffrey. That sounds like Jeffrey. But of course the Ely's like it lower, right? That's why the Ely's use a sh uh like the actual Ely family. And you should also go look at espresso, the chemistry, uh, the chemistry of qualities.
+
+[43:56] A great book on espresso only. I mean, it's came out a long time ago, so I don't know kind of how up to date it is, but they they favor kind of very low numbers. Um they use you know very like longer shots with lower uh lower initial doses, but yeah, they they they talk in, I mean, if you talk in terms of sort of brew ratio with espresso, like and that's what mass of a shot do you get out of from what mass of ground in a particular time frame? And you know, that you you'll find that the Italians in general sort of like um you know something that's it's it's uh uh usually they'll use smaller dosing to begin with, and they'll pull a slightly faster shot, and the brew ratio won't be quite the same as what what they'll do like you know, closer to two to one brew ratio, so maybe a seven gram dose, get a 14 gram shot out. Whereas you have a tendency in in in this country, because we drown our beverages in so much milk to use much higher dosing, maybe 18 or 20 grams, and then like a one and oh, you know, this will vary depending on style, but you know, somewhere closer to like a one and a half, maybe even towards the ristretto of a one to one brew ratio, and it's gonna make a much much stronger coffee.
+
+[45:09] Um maybe even a little bit bitter, you're gonna lose some of the acidity, some of the floral note. But then if you drown it in a gallon of milk, it has a chance of sort of standing out. Yeah, but even as the so I mean, you know, Ely, Andrea Ely told me once, yeah, when I I asked him, so and we're talking now like 10 years ago, so you know, kind of in the early period of the huge expansion in the in the coffee scene out where you are in Seattle. I guess you weren't there at that time, but you are from that area, but whatever. So uh, and you know, he I said, what do you think about what these guys are doing on the west coast of New York of uh the of the U.S.
+
+[45:41] where they're using much higher dose rates than you are in pulling shorter shots, and as you say, he's uh you know he's like the florals are going to be reduced. I happen to think that a circa two thousand and three, you know, like kind of pan West Coast, so take vivace as like kind of the one that we all kind of heard about over here, right? That kind of a shot, I loved that that kind of a shot, like two thousand and two, two thousand like that kind of a shot, I thought was amazing. The last time I was out there a couple of years ago, like these kind of like skim coat shots where they're like hyperdosing it and pulling out like way less than an ounce. I don't know about that style.
+
+[46:19] What do you think? I I'm I'm not actually a fan of that style. I uh I I probably prefer something closer to 18 gram dose pulled in, depends on the coffee, but around 27 or so, uh 20 24 to 27 seconds. And I generally like to get like uh more towards like a 1.6, 1.7 brew ratio. It's not it's not an Italian style, but it's not this really overdosed um uh you know sort of hyper ristretto shot that uh that that become fairly fashionable.
+
+[46:51] Is there any snap back on the West Coast back towards like slightly more normal shot volumes or no? Yeah, uh I I would say actually there's an interesting trend going on at places um like Millstead Coffee. There's a a grape for uh an up and coming uh uh young Grecian named Andrew Milstead, who runs this place in Fremont, and he's basically going back towards smaller, uh smaller, you know, if you order a uh uh a a cappuccino, you're gonna get a five-ounce cup there. And so when you start reducing the amount of milk you're serving, it allows you to sort of start bringing these shot uh doses down and the brewing ratios to you know, maybe more normal levels or levels that really sort of maximize bringing out the florals and and and and the various aroma uh aroma notes you get in the coffee and away from this shot that's really just designed to stand out in 24 ounces of hot milk. Yeah, Dave, I gotta squeeze a break in here.
+
+[47:44] Uh we have to have a break. We have to, yes. All right, all right, right. Commercial break. We're right back with Chris Young.
+
+[48:04] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Krille, we've created something exciting and new at Chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love. And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible. At ChefSteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen.
+
+[48:40] And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, Chef Steps.com is entirely free to learn. How's that for an ad? There you go.
+
+[49:06] All right, Chris, you're still with us, right? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, cool. So uh another question, also from an Alex, different one. Uh Alex uh Gorodetsky writes in about mocha pots, which actually, you know what?
+
+[49:17] I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I don't drink mocha pot coffee, but the real problem with mocha pots is that people have uh linked the word espresso to the mocha pot, and they're just entirely different types of coffee, right? I mean, they're just not the same thing, right? And I've never taken the time to get a good mocha cup, but apparently people who like it like it. Yeah, so I I I'm I'm gonna say I've been given like three mocha pots in my lifetime is a gift.
+
+[49:43] Um, and it appears to be sort of this cult that people who have mocha pots, it's like Tupperware or something. It's like you want they they give you a mocha pot, and it's like join us. And I've never had a good cup of coffee out of a mocha pot. It might be possible, but I've never had it, and so they've never really captivated my interest. And and then there's just people who are who love mocha pots.
+
+[50:05] They sort of make me feel like I'm joining a cult, so I've sort of shunned them. Right. Well, hell well, I think the thing is is that you know, there's a lot to control. Wait, well, let's I'll go with the question here. Okay.
+
+[50:15] So we've been using the stovetop Italian mocha coffee maker for many years, and we love it for a variety of reasons. So maybe Alex is also a member of the cult. I don't know. Had some questions to see if we can make the mocha coffee better. First, grind.
+
+[50:27] We have been grinding between espresso espresso and Turkish. That is too fine. That is too fine for a mocha pot. All the indications that uh I have are that you want to go slightly coarser uh than uh slightly coarser than espresso. Um water, we use tap water.
+
+[50:43] Whether or not tap water is good, depends on which tap you have. Uh, you know, like kind of, you know, New York City water is a little bit too uh soft, I think most people would say, but uh I don't know. How's Seattle water must be good? That must be one of the reasons why the coffee stuff took off over there, right? Everybody's got reverse osmosis filters on their line in Seattle.
+
+[51:02] Oh, really? And then do they re-that's perfectly good here, but um, you know, uh it it seems that what I've the numbers I've heard going around is something like a hundred and fifty uh PTMs of uh of of some of your your hard minerals. Basically, if you were to go get like Bulvick water or or Dasani or some some sort of name brand pretty middle of the road water, that's about perfect for coffee, and people will go into fairly great effort of making sure their tap water is about that. Right. And then uh Alex asked, would it be better with hot tap uh tap water?
+
+[51:35] Any other tips would be useful as well. Now now neither Chris nor I are uh mocha heads, as we said. However, Stumptown Coffee has a good little thing if you go on their website on using the mocha pot best. They say you want to preheat the water before you put it into the mocha pot. This makes sense because it means it's less time on the stove and less time to dry heat your coffee grounds, which is not a good thing.
+
+[51:56] Uh they also say that the one of the most important things when you're doing mocha pot work is to keep the lid of it open so that you can look down on it so that as soon as it starts blonding out on the extraction, you can pull it off before you over-extract out of it. And then the other thing that they say is to wrap a wet towel to stop the extraction at that point almost instantly. I would say easier would be just to have like a pan of cold water next to it that you could just put the whole bottom of the uh just quench it. And that's something I hadn't thought of, and that's probably a good good technique. Um so I think if you add those, that's probably gonna boost your uh stuff.
+
+[52:30] Go to the top. I would use a coarser grind. Uh and I think like those I mean I'm I'm almost, you know, intrigued now to go out and uh go out and try it. Uh you know, one of the things that's false about a pe everyone who's against it says, Well, you're boiling the water, therefore the water is too hot, therefore it can't possibly make good coffee. But the fact of the matter is is that from the one or two people I've seen who've done kind of initial measurements of the temperature, it's actually by the time it's getting through your coffee grounds no longer boiling and not that far above what it would be in a good espresso machine.
+
+[53:00] So, you know, this is all stuff that can be tweaked out. Yeah, m my guess is, you know, I I I'm sort of taking this weird attitude towards mocha pots. I'm sure it's possible to make a a pretty good cup, and I'm sort of spoiled that I have a nice espresso machine at my disposal. I have all these other things, so I've never really looked at it. But I think you're right.
+
+[53:20] It you're I I can't see why you'd want it finer. I because I think you're having a longer extraction period. You'd actually rather have a slightly coarser grind, which is going to give you a slightly bigger margin for air of under versus over extracting. And that and with something like a mocha pot where you have to quench it to try to stop the extraction, having anything that uh that gives you a little more wiggle room is gonna be worthwhile. I I agree.
+
+[53:43] Hey Dave, quick tweet. Yep, what are you? Just uh FYI Schmaltz beer doesn't actually have Schmaltz in it. They're just using it, you know. Using the term.
+
+[53:51] Jewish beers like Hebrew and things of that nature. I'll all I'm saying is send send it our way. That's all I'm saying. You just want beer, yeah. I just want beer.
+
+[53:58] You know, I'll drink it with uh I'll drink it with uh Jimmy uh Carbone. We'll we'll have some beer together. Okay. So uh Brian in San Francisco, this is a good one, uh Chris. Uh I've wasted many cups of olive uh oil, grapeseed oil, and sunflower oil trying to make mayonnaise from scratch.
+
+[54:11] I followed the recipe from Sirius Eats Food Lab with the immersion blender, uh, and it comes out liquidy. I've also followed McGee's advice from Keys to Good Cooking about using another yolk to save it, but I couldn't. I've also tried the old-fashioned way with a whisk. Please give me a foolproof recipe for mail, also. What about adding flavors?
+
+[54:27] Garlic, mustard, and making holidays, uh bourgeons and other A's style sauces? Finally, how long will it keep? In the fridge? The Japanese don't refrigerate theirs. What's up with fat?
+
+[54:35] Thanks, Brian in San Francisco. Okay. First of all, uh, it's unsafe when it's made unless you pasteurize the eggs. However, the longer it sits, assuming you've used the correct acid ratios in the manufacture of it, the safer it gets. Uh so that's why in New Orleans people don't die from eating the mayonnaise.
+
+[54:52] It's been sitting out all day. Uh but initially made mayonnaise is not safe, and you can always, as modernist cuisine will tell you, or as Chris will tell you, or as I will tell you, it's very simple uh to pasteurize the egg yolks before you use them, and they still make a good mayonnaise, correct? Yep, they make great mayonnaise. Okay. Now, this technique on uh on what's it called?
+
+[55:12] On uh on um that Kenji uh Alt did on uh on the blog there on the Food Network, uh not food network, what's it called? Food Lab is really cool. What he does, Chris, and I don't know if you've seen the video. What he's done. Yeah.
+
+[55:23] So what he does is he takes uh an immersion blender cup, puts an an a single egg yolk in it, uh a tablespoon of water, which is a mistake because water doesn't add flavor. I would add a flavorful liquid, but you know, whatever. I think it was just because that's what he did. Whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. Little vinegar would be nice in there, maybe some mustard.
+
+[55:39] Yeah, yeah, well, he has also adds mustard, but like just straight water like came out with like a flavorless, because I just did it today, flavorless mayonnaise. And then he put it into a uh a cu the actual cup that comes with the immersion blender, and that turns out to be the key. So what happens is you put the immersion blender in the bottom, you hit it, and uh because the egg yolk is sitting at the bottom underneath the blades, you actually are slowly adding the oil to it. It makes us an emulsion before the bulk of the oil face starts getting mixed into it. And you can make a very stiff, banged-out, awesome mayonnaise in like in nothing flat.
+
+[56:14] It's actually amazing. It's really kind of amazing. So like that's the way I when I was Garmeret Chef at the Fat Duck, that's like the way I made our mayonnaise twice a day for service. So I was unaware this was even a technique. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[56:29] Well, but here's the thing it's easy to mess up because uh so the results you're getting too liquidy. When Brian first said he was results were too liquidy, my initial assumption was you didn't use enough oil, right? Because we we all know that like you actually oil that thickens it as you as you as you bulk it up. Bingo. But I did as a so then I as an alternate test, I also did it by adding, you know, the I added the ingredients in all different orders.
+
+[56:54] Uh I added, you know, very, very high proof uh, you know, 10% uh Scandinavian vinegar to see whether, or no, Polish vinegar to see whether or not over aceting the yolk could mess it and it couldn't, it was all perfect. But then I made the recipe in a quart container instead of in the actual immersion blender cup, and it did not work because it created too much mixing of the uh yolk and the oil before a stable emulsion was formed. So the key to that technique is to use the actual cup that the immersion blender came with, or if you've lost that, use a mixing tin for like a like a tall uh cocktail mixing tin, because I tested it in that as well. You just you just want a cup where down at the bottom of it, it's not the diameter isn't much bigger than the diameter of the end of the stick uh the stick blender. And you know, you can start with all the oil, or if you're if you haven't practiced this, you can put a little bit of oil in it, almost sort of chop it up to get that initial emulsion, and then get the rest of the oil in and just start blending from the bottom, slowly pulling up.
+
+[57:54] And uh, you know, I've I've always found that's a very easy way to get a a thick thing. So m if he's having trouble, my guess is too big of a container. Yeah, and because I it was in I tried it four times in a core container, it's not possible to do it in something that's too wide at the bottom. Anyway, okay. So uh I am being told uh that uh we are out of time.
+
+[58:14] So I have a question about souffle with acid. You have anything for stabilizing a high acid souffle, other than making sure that uh the base isn't too hot when you put the acid ingredient in before you fold the egg whites, Chris. Um not off the top of my head. You know, the my general reaction when people want to talk about stabilizing the souffle, uh they they generally mean they don't want it to collapse. And the problem is if you make a souffle so stable that it doesn't collapse, it's a cake, not a souffle anymore.
+
+[58:45] Um but you're you're talking about being able to add a uh a high acid into the egg base before baking. Yeah. I mean, um well, I'll I'll talk a little bit more about it next week. Mark Jensen also wrote in with uh a good great use of his uh leftover 64 degree eggs. He makes a hollandaise without having to pre-cook in modernist uh cuisine style.
+
+[59:05] So I'll talk about that. It's a good use. Uh and then we had someone who's having problems with their creme anglaise, Tom Fisher. We'll get to you next uh week. So I'm sorry we didn't get to finish your all the questions, but that's just we have so many good questions and good colors in.
+
+[59:18] And you gotta talk to us about the cereal puffer next week, too. Oh, yeah, we have a new puffing gun, Chris. Next time you're in the city for the summertime, come in. I saw the photo. I I'm I'm extremely envious.
+
+[59:28] So uh uh maybe a trip to New York to come out and play with your toys. Well, you know, you guys, you know, Chef Steps is willing to c like if Chef Steps comes out here, what you guys can make your own proprietary puffed snack mix in our puffer, you know, in the museum's puffer would be awesome. Also, we shipped uh we shipped a beta test unit of the uh Searsol out to you guys. Do you guys get it yet? Uh I will check McCame.
+
+[59:49] I haven't seen it yet, but uh I I'm I'm I'm I'm interested. I was very interested to see the results you had on blowtorching and that uh you know you you might be proving us wrong that we've got to redo some revisions to MC. Alright, well, see see what you think about it. And let me just say this. For those of you that still cook foie gras out there, the Sears all is ridiculous on the foie gras.
+
+[1:00:09] And Chris, thanks for coming and uh speaking with us cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[1:00:37] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out Chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at ChefSteps.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org, a nonprofit member supported radio station.
+
+[0:22] We're millions strong, with folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education. We are entertainment. We are the future of food. May is our membership drive.
+
+[0:33] Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:56] This is Dave Moran, your host of Cooking News coming to live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joining the studio today with this dash of the hammer lopez. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How are you doing, guys? Good, man.
+
+[1:10] I had to switch up the theme music this week. Yeah, I noticed that. But like it's like, you know, you'll people they'll not only is Nastasha like to keep me on her toes, but uh Jack and Joe in the engineering booth like to keep me on my toes. Cause yeah, you're ready for one, you get the other. That's how the life goes.
+
+[1:23] Call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Before I get started, uh, you know, in the audience you probably won't care, but here in the studio you'll enjoy this. So guess why I was late today. I was actually slaved to be on time today, guess.
+
+[1:37] I don't know. Well, it wasn't the train, because you rode a bike. That's right. I don't know. Bike ticket!
+
+[1:43] Woo! Oh man, really? Yeah, yeah. Big ol' bike ticket. What?
+
+[1:48] Well, I was trying to. So, believe this or not, but you probably won't. Like, I normally take a route that the but the bike, the bike program on the computer tells me to go from my house to the studio. And there's one really unsafe intersection. So they didn't attempt to go around, not use that intersection.
+
+[2:03] I went down another place and went down like for like half a block, which is my maximum. In Manhattan or Brooklyn. A one way street. And the cops are like, woo and hit me with a and they're getting smarter because they no longer hand out uh motor vehicle tickets to bikes, which is what they used to do. So any biker could just go to court and say, yo, Yana, I was on a bike.
+
+[2:25] A bike is not a motor vehicle, sorry. And then like, you know what I mean? And that was it. But they have a new kind of summons, but here's where they get you. I can't pay by mail.
+
+[2:32] I have to physically go to court. Well, you can go online and plead not guilty, right? No. Nah. What?
+
+[2:38] No. No. This is new kind of ticket. They're trying to shaft bikers into actually having to go to court, like none of us work or anything. Hey, look, I was breaking the traffic regulations, like, great.
+
+[2:48] Although it's a little bit of an insult to uh have a ticket for the privilege of riding these Brooklyn roads, as uh as Neil Diamond would say, which by the way, much as I don't hate Brooklyn the way Nastache hates, I have I I think Brooklyn's fine. The worst roads that I have seen on the east coast of the United States. You agree with me, Jack? Joe? Yeah, uh yeah, I do.
+
+[3:12] Yeah, I mean, especially in the bike lane where we're forced to drive, it's like imagine if amusement park rides weren't fun. Imagine like the biggest moguls you've ever seen skiing, and those are that is Bushwick people. That's what that's what it's like. I drive a car and I basically have to get new brakes every like you know six, seven months or something. It's yeah, yeah, and all the cars trying to avoid the potholes and try not to bottom and scrape their stuff out.
+
+[3:36] Nothing more fun for them than to run into a biker who's trying to go next to them at you know in their in their normal spot. You know what I'm saying? So I'm pr and I'm proud to have my money, my ticket penalty money go towards supporting the awesome roads of Brooklyn. All right. Let's start off with some, hey, look, my fault though, right?
+
+[3:54] So my usual trick of just, you know, being extremely honest about what I was doing, and nice of the officers didn't work on this one. These guys are there to hand out freaking tickets. They're on an anti-bike. The guy literally said, if you want to break the law, get off the bike and walk across. I wouldn't have given you the ticket.
+
+[4:12] I'm like, What? Wow. What? Okay. Okay.
+
+[4:18] This is not a show about biking. Okay. Here are some uh questions in from before. Uh Tom Fisher wrote in last week. I tried making sous vide creme en glaze using this uh method on your site.
+
+[4:28] That would be cookingissues.com. Uh everything went fine until I tried to bag the mixture. It seems like the blending incorporated far too much air into the mix. And the first time I tried to bag the mix, it quickly doubled in volume and made a huge mess. Before I get going, let me just tell you what the procedure is, right?
+
+[4:41] So people know what the hell I'm talking about. So when we make uh, you know, when you make your normal creme en glaze, you know, you're careful, you stir it, you don't get any air into it, you temper the egg yolks, blah blah blah. When you're making it uh sous vide uh or low temp, what you do is you you throw uh I'll give you my recipe, you throw 10 egg yolks into uh a blender, you throw 170 grams of sugar in there, a little bit of salt, uh whatever flavorings you might want to add. You don't have to add the things like vanilla later because they're gonna be in a bag and they won't volatilize off. Then you're gonna add 500 mils of uh milk and 500 mils of uh heavy cream.
+
+[5:16] And actually, what I do is I add the milk. I don't add the cream in the blender step, I add the milk, turn on the blender on high, blends it, it does aerate it, which is the source of the one of the sources of the problem with uh Tom's uh English mixture here. Uh and but uh it also breaks up the alaza on the egg yolks so that you don't need to uh strain your creme en glaze after. The two big advantages of well, the three big advantages, well, some of the big advantages of doing uh um creme en glaze, uh low temperature or sous vide are one, if you use the blender, you don't need to strain it because one, there's no alaza in it, and two, when you're cooking low temperature, you're never gonna curdle it. So there's no little curdles of egg yolk that you need to strain out, right?
+
+[5:59] So you get rid of that whole straining nonsense. That's one big advantage. Two, uh flavors are preserved uh very well in the bag, and certain flavors like cinnamon, uh it's really easy to get that awesome kind of red hot cinnamon flavor. You like red hot spice though? Yeah, see?
+
+[6:12] Something she likes. See, I know the secret things that she likes, like red hot. Uh so I could have won that pork chop or whatever it is we gave away. Uh so anyway, uh so it gives you that uh red hot thing because the vacuum intensifies the extraction of flavor out of spices like that, uh cinnamon. And uh another advantage is it's extremely hygienic, right?
+
+[6:32] Because you don't need to pour it into something and then cool it very quickly. You can just take the bag, put the bag in ice water, chill it down, and three, because uh you've killed all the vegetative cells in it when the cooking, right? You haven't sterilized it, so it's not safe, uh, you know, uh not refrigerated, but it lasts an extremely long time. So these are some of the benefits. However, uh, so what I do is I blend the milk, the egg yolks, the sugar, the salt, and maybe the flavoring.
+
+[6:55] Then I add the cream and just put the blender on low to stir it to combine because you don't want to froth it up too much because that's stuff you have to get rid of later. Now, to finish the rest of his question, so remember, he has uh Tom was having problems if it was blowing up and making a huge mess, which is true, right? Uh okay, after cleaning, sorry, Tom, that cleaning sucks. Cleaning creme en glaze, make sure out of the bottom of your vacuum machine sucks. Really sucks.
+
+[7:14] Uh after cleaning, I moved the mix to a hotel pan and tried to de-aerate it in the vacuum sealer. But even after many cycles, the mix still had a frothy, bubbly texture. That's true. I eventually bagged it in Ziplocks and circulated the mix and it came out fine. Where did I go wrong?
+
+[7:30] Thanks, Tom Fisher. Okay, here a couple of things. One, creme glaze bubbles like a weasel, and there's just no way around that, right? If you are going to deerate in a pan beforehand, which I don't, by the way, but if you are going to do it, you have to start with extremely thin mixtures in the hot uh when I say thin thickness, not like thin consistency, uh mixtures in the hotel pan, like like a couple of milliliters and do it in four batches. Then you can get a full rise, bubble pop, drop, and boil out of a creme glaze in a vacuum machine.
+
+[7:58] Not a heat boil. I don't want to hear anyone talk to me about heat boils, not a heat boil, it's just a vacuum boil. Uh, and you can do it. However, uh, what I s like what I normally do is I remove all of the plastic thingamajig, like things that look like cutting boards, the spacers, take them all out. Do not use a bagging attachment.
+
+[8:15] This is worthless. Do it in a normal, like uh like 10 or 12 inch wide vacuum bag, uh, I guess 10, I think 10. Uh, only put half a liter of product into it. Or, you know, like basically if you make the liter batch with 10 egg yolks and 170 uh grams more than a liter, half in each bag, right? Put the bag over the edge of the uh vacuum machine and then cut a hole in between the seal bar and the edge of the machine to let the air come out.
+
+[8:42] This way you have the maximum expansion room in the bag before the mixture starts boiling out all over the vacuum machine. It gives you the maximum space for it to inflate, right? Then drop the lid. Oh, the other thing, I'm sure your mix wasn't cold enough. It's vitally important that you use cold, cold, cold uh egg yolks, cold, cold, cold milk, cold, cold, cold cream.
+
+[9:01] The sugar is never cold usually unless you do your mise en place beforehand and throw it in the fridge for a while, but very few people do that unless you're working for demos. So sometimes when I'm doing demos, I'm fortunate enough to be able to have the uh sugar be cold like that. But you've already aerated it in the vacuum machine, so even though it's cold, it's gonna want to boil over a lot. So what you do is you close it and then you wait. Keep your finger on the stop button.
+
+[9:23] Just keep your finger there. Do not take your finger off. It's gonna start sucking a vacuum, right? And then all of a sudden it's gonna start boiling up a little bit, and you're like, oh, I'm okay, right? It's okay, no problem.
+
+[9:32] And then boom, it's gonna make a run for the border and start spraying up out of the back. At that instant, right before the mixture hits the seal bar, boom, hit stop. Boom. As soon as you hit stop, the seal bar stops, seals it, and stops any more of the egg mixture from coming out, right? Now, you haven't getting rid of all of the air in there, so it will get some flotation in your in your bath, which is why you should weigh it down and crush it down.
+
+[9:54] But it's good enough. And it gets rid of uh, and then the further cooking is gonna pop the rest of those air bubbles, and so you do not have a frothy mixture when you're done, right? You simply don't. Now, if you do pack your stuff in a zippy, right? I've noticed that it tends it cooks, it's fine, and you don't have as many problems with uh, you know, with the overflow, like you say, but there are a couple of other unintended consequences.
+
+[10:19] First, there's more, you're not getting hardly any air out from the blending step when you do it in a zippy. So, what you're gonna have to do is let it sit for a while for the air to kind of like come to the surface and then kind of re-get that air out in the zippy before you cook. One. Two, uh, in side-by-side taste tests, I've noticed that uh creme anglaise, not so with it with that's been put in a blender, one, and it's cooked in a zippy without using a vacuum, has more of a cooked egg flavor, more of a sulphurous cooked egg flavor, than uh creme anglaise cooked in a vacuum bag. That's just been our experience.
+
+[10:44] We've tasted it side by side. It's not that it's bad, it's that if you taste it side by side, you would always choose the one that in a vacuum bag. And uh was there another thing? Oh, last but not least, vacuum bags are extrem, I mean uh sorry, zippies are extremely uh fragile at creme anglaise temperatures, and they feel really, really flimsy. Now, uh this is gonna dovetail into uh what uh John Riper wrote in to us a couple weeks ago, but I haven't had a chance to read yet.
+
+[11:16] Uh there's no safety issue as far as SC Johnson Wax uh uh a family company is concerned, but uh there is uh a possibility of structural failure. Okay? So there you have it. Now on to uh John Riper, who sent us the uh the awesome uh Ducili uh Filberts slat you know, Filberts a hazelnut, right? You like those suckers, right?
+
+[11:36] They look like wood, they're kind of awesome. I'm gonna talk about those more in depth. Uh John sent me on a little bit of a native nutcake. I'm on a kind of a, even though they're not native, with a name like Duchili, how's that gonna be native anyway? But they're important, but whatever, they're old, they're heritage varieties.
+
+[11:49] Uh, but I became interested very recently in hickory nuts, shag bark, shell bark, hickory nuts, and also butternuts, which is a white walnut, you know what I mean? Anyway, so interested in that stuff. Uh you can't get butternuts uh this time of year. Anyone that had them is sold out, and the supply is extremely rare because all the white walnut trees are dying because of uh well, because they're dying from disease. It's kind of a horrible story.
+
+[12:10] But uh uh I I do have some, even though it's also very hard to get hickory nuts at this point, I'm getting some hickory nuts in, so we'll test those, we'll play around with some native nuts, and then we'll talk about it. Yeah? Sure. You excited about the hickory nuts? No.
+
+[12:21] Ah man, how could you not be excited about the hickory nuts? It's like it's like the hickory nut is supposed to be as good as the pecan, like as good as the pecan. Like some people say even better than the pecan, and yet nobody uses it anymore because it's more difficult to harvest and they're more difficult to crack. It's like it's like we you know, I've grown up my whole life thinking that Southerners have a lock on native nuts, the pecan being, you know, fundamentally a gift from heaven. And here I find out later that us northerners also have a you know a a godlike gift from heaven nut, the the the Shag Bark Hickory.
+
+[12:54] And and and I'm 42 freaking years old and I never had one. Is there any justice in that? No. No, none. No, no, no.
+
+[13:01] Okay, my my iPad decided that it didn't want to work. Okay, there we go. Uh so anyway, so John wrote in, uh, not about the nuts. Uh he said, I've been meaning to write the attached letter. He wrote it, he wrote an attached letter, which I don't have here, uh, to SC Johnson ever since Dave shared their email about safe cooking with Ziploc bags a few weeks ago.
+
+[13:16] In my experience, it's pretty rare for big corporations to go out on a limb over much of anything, so it's worth applauding when they do. More useful though is the chance they'd throw some sponsor support your way. So you hear that, S. E Johnson's they're not, they they don't listen, they don't know, they don't care. But I I am uh glad that they did write us that email saying that zippies were okay to use, and I haven't got any pushback from that.
+
+[13:36] Have we had any emails saying that we're bad people? No. Because of that? I mean, we've had emails saying we're bad people, but not because of that, right? Right.
+
+[13:42] Okay. Adam wrote in last week uh about gluten. Gluten. I like that word. You like that word?
+
+[13:48] Gluten. Uh Dave, Nastasha, etc. Hey guys, you're et cetera today. They're not they're not happy and they're they're they're glum in the other room. Okay.
+
+[13:56] Uh I've been thinking how gluten is composed of two separate protein types, glutenin and gliadin. And I'll uh I think I think it's gliadin, not gliden, gliadin. Gliadin. Uh I wonder, is it possible to make a wheat-free? I like saying wheat with a wheat like married.
+
+[14:10] Yeah, wheat. Anyway, is it possible to make a wheat-free loaf of bread that behaved like regular wheat bread by combining flours containing these separate gluten components? Wheat flour uh is typically 11 to 13% protein, 80% of which is gluten, and uh gluten is about a one-to-one ratio between glutenin and gliadin. I guess you know it depends. Everything depends.
+
+[14:31] But anyway, uh, can I duplicate these conditions without wheat flour? I've not been able to find a detailed list of flours and their gluten and gliadin fractions. There are gluten-free websites that list gliadin-containing grains, since gliadin is the primary issue in celiac disease, but these sites do not post hard numbers. I have not found references for a good source of glutenin. Uh would this approach to constructing a loaf of bread work?
+
+[14:51] For example, while rye flour contains gluten, pentasins, pentasins are uh uh five carbon sugars. Uh, you know, the polymers of five carbon sugars. Okay. Pentasans are present that prevent the gluten from forming effectively. My alternative flour combinations have similar negative interactions.
+
+[15:07] The bakery network website, WW that big the bakery network.com, describes how to isolate gluten from flour and then separate the glutenin and gliadin by rinsing with alcohol. Perhaps an alternative approach would be to mix isolated glutenin into a dough made of gliadin-rich flour with the protein relax and reincorporate into a dough. Thanks for your thoughts. Adam. Okay.
+
+[15:24] Uh first of all, I mean, clearly this approach would not help. Uh clearly this approach would not help if someone actually had celiac disease because they can't have the gluten regardless of where it comes from, right? Duh. Uh but uh the question is, is there some source of just straight glutenin? Uh not not that I not that I know of.
+
+[15:46] And I wouldn't necessarily see the, I wouldn't necessarily see the point of uh getting something that's high in gliadin and then adding just uh glutenin when you could just buy vital wheat gluten at the store, you know, and add the vital wheat gluten to uh your bread mix and increase the protein component. Now, as for pentasans, but you know, the what pentasans uh are interesting, um I think you can add enzymes that break them break them down somewhat, and I think there are some enzymes that break them down naturally to kind of reduce the viscosity over time. But they they seem to uh reduce the uh ability of gluten networks to form in two different ways. One, they actually interfere with uh the the interaction between the uh the polymers that are formed when you hydrate uh the gluten, right? And secondly, they increase the viscosity of the water matrix within it and therefore make it difficult more difficult for the gluten to hydrate.
+
+[16:42] So they have a two-step thing. They are actually inhibiting the formation of the network uh, you know, on a molecular level and increasing the viscosity, making less of the water available to the gluten to hydrate. So that's what the pentasans are doing. Now, my presumption is that by doping up to a certain level with vital wheat gluten, which I used to do all the time in low protein flours, just dope it with vital wheat gluten, um, you can ameliorate some of these effects. But I don't know that you're going to be able to make entirely wheat-free, i.e., from no wheat products, including no wheat gluten stuff that has gluten in it.
+
+[17:11] Uh on a separate note that's interesting, uh pentacans, I don't know, I haven't read any human studies, but uh people are very worried about feeding um high pentasin grains to animals uh because they can lower the feed conversion ratio uh because what happens is is the same thing that happens in the in the dough, the pentasan's increase the viscosity, happens in your gut because they don't get broken down uh right away, and so this increased viscosity can lead to a lower absorption of certain nutrients in uh chickens, for instance, that are fed grains high in pentasins. Uh if you want, you can read the article. Increased small intestinal fermentation is partly responsible for the anti-nutritive activity of non starch palysaccharides in chickens. You can go read that if that's the kind of crap you like to read. Which I guess I am.
+
+[17:54] I guess that's me. Yeah, on a side note, uh, I was looking through and I saw Time magazine a couple of months ago came out with an article saying, you know, how twenty check this out, Stuff gonna believe this. Twenty-eight percent of people in the US said to the Time magazine people, or something like close to twenty-eight percent, said that they were trying to reduce the amount of gluten in their diet. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:16] I mean, it's crazy. So, what's happened is is that the gluten free market has freaking exploded. Like it's like it's a multi-cajillion dollar industry, because uh all of these people who are like, well, there's some people who are allergic to it, so maybe if I just don't have it too, it's gonna be better for me, even though I'm not allergic to it, even though it does no harm to me at all, even though it does nothing but make my bread delicious. It's new organic. Yeah, but it makes no, it makes no dang it's makes no dang sense.
+
+[18:42] But you know what? Good. Here's two things. Good, good, good, good. Like, make a buck.
+
+[18:48] You know what I mean? If you're gonna if you're gluten freak, so like Piper, who works with us, I'm gonna call him out here. Piper who works with us, he's the uh Booker and Dax lab manager there. He's been on the show once or twice, right? Is that true?
+
+[18:58] Uh Piper is celiac. He's legit, you know what I mean? Like the man can't have gluten. In fact, he like muscles through it like when he took his test at the French culinary, it ate all the gluten, got the huge rash and all this other stuff, and you know, the horrible problems, right? So he's legitimately gluten free, and so and there is a huge rise in actual cases, or so it's reported to me, of people uh, you know, with actual intolerance to gluten.
+
+[19:23] And so if twenty-eight percent of uh the people around there are sheep and believe this craziness that they should get rid of gluten too, even though it has no effect on them, then I say God bless them, because it means that there's more people pouring money into problems that are gonna help out actual people with problems like Piper, right? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Oh, speaking of gluten-free flowers, uh in Africa, did I already talk about this?
+
+[19:42] In Africa, they have a type of millet called phonio. Did I talk about this, Jack or Joe? Not that I can remember. Yeah. So uh there's an increased uh interest in kind of the lost crops of Africa, and there's a bunch of different peop reasons people are interested.
+
+[19:55] Me, taste, right? Uh people in Africa, economics, uh three, I don't know, I guess those are the main ones, right? Economic well, it's economics, politics, uh, ecology, um, you know, soil use, the, you know, uh and and you know, taste. Uh and a lot of the uh, you know, uh like crops that are originally from that area are different species of millet. Millet is not a single uh type of grain in the way that uh you know, wheat is.
+
+[20:22] There are a bunch of different grass families with small seeds uh that are called millet. Uh and you know, they're they're they're combined care their their characteristic that they share is that they're all members of the grass family and that they all have extremely small seeds. So uh a lot of these are very high in, you know, the ones that they use, the small millet, the large millet, and this tiny, tiny, tiny one that's known in Senegal as phonio with an F, uh, are very high in proteins, but apparently not uh gluten and gliadin. So they can be consumed by uh gluten-free uh folk. Now, phonio, I had a loaf of bread in Senegal that was composed, they said, it could just be lying, right?
+
+[20:59] Could just be lying, but they said it was 80% phonio and only 20% wheat, but the texture was like a hundred percent wheat bread. So maybe there's some good uh ideas there for gluten-free people with phonio. If anyone has any experimentation uh that they can send in that they've experimented, I would love to hear about it. I hear that long fermentation times uh make for better millet-based doughs, but I haven't done any research yet. I did bring some back, but haven't had time to play with play with it.
+
+[21:23] I've also heard that Thomas Keller's $15 a pound exclamation point, exclamation point gluten-free flour is pretty good, but I would bet not for bread, I bet for pasta. That's what Mark uh Ladner uses at Del Posta, right? He uses Thomas Keller's fantastically expensive flour. Yes. And he likes it, right?
+
+[21:38] We I tasted it. Were you there when I was there? Yes. Yeah. Uh yeah, yeah, I tasted it.
+
+[21:43] It was good. I mean, look, is it as good as the no side by side? He gives you the one with the gluten, and you're like, that take the gluten. But like, it was pretty good, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[21:52] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it better because they cooked it better, better than a lot of normal people's real, well, real, gluten full pasta that was, right? Yeah. What am I with my Yoda? You hear how I put that sentence together?
+
+[22:05] No damn sense. All right. Uh Mark Jensen. Should we take a break? Yeah.
+
+[22:09] Yeah, that's great. All right, let's go to our first commercial break cooking issues. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Krilly, we've created something exciting and new at Chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love.
+
+[22:48] And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible. At chefsteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, Chef Steps.com is entirely free to learn.
+
+[23:32] I love that they say they're a fan of cooking issues in that ad. That's quite nice of them. Well, you know, we had the we had the Chris Young uh last week on the show, and we're put in the awkward position of having to cut Chris Young off to play a Chris Young promo. First time it's ever happened. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:47] That was good. You know, uh, you know who does their see here's what here's something you gotta like about the Chef Steps. I mean, look, there are sponsors, so you know, but still true. Here's the nice thing that even the people who do you know who does their web work? Oh.
+
+[23:59] Michael Natkin. Really? Yeah, he does their web and software. That's right, I was in touch with him. And so, like, you know, even the person like doing the web work is like a louded and loved food figure.
+
+[24:13] It's great. You know what I'm saying? It's a good community you got coming here. Yeah. Speaking of community, can I do a quick pitch?
+
+[24:17] Yeah, sure. Still membership drive. May is almost over. And uh if if any listener becomes a member by the end of this show, I'm gonna go ahead and title the episode their name. Oh wow.
+
+[24:27] Whoa. So, you know, act now. This is but this is like re a real act now, not like where you call in and you get five sham wows for the price of one or something like that. No, no, it's not like that. Okay.
+
+[24:38] Uh, but uh That's Heritage Radio Network.org and click the donate button on the right side right there. Can you put a shamwow button there? We can sell shamwals off that thing? Take a slide. I wish I had sham.
+
+[24:48] You know, if anyone's listening and wants to send us some shamwows so we could use them over here. Here's something I it's not mine to give, to give or to say we should have a contest for it, but there is an awesome pair of cowhair chaps in the studio that I've tried to steal like three times. Maybe that should be like a like a thing once. I think we should make shamwows that have the logo, the cooking issues logo on them. That'll be sweet.
+
+[25:09] And then if you call in and become member. You get some cooking issue shamways? Yeah, exactly. No, it'd be awesome. Well, back to the chef steps for a second.
+
+[25:16] You know who I haven't really spent a lot of time hanging around with from Chef Steps is Grant. He's like, you know, Grant and Chris. Grant, apparently, huge badass. Awesome guy. I mean, I met him a couple times uh at the when Modernist Food was doing their like uh tour de cuisine around the around the country and in the in the Seattle.
+
+[25:32] But uh apparently just like a monster cook. That's what I hear. Anyway. Okay. Uh by the way, still time to call new questions.
+
+[25:40] Dude, 718497, 2128, that's 7184972128. Mark Jensen writes in regarding eggs. Mark Jensen here, fork in the road mobile galley. You know, I'm gonna have to have galley kitchen in my next uh apartment. It's kind of depressing.
+
+[25:52] I don't like galley. You like galley kitchens? It's okay. I mean, because I want like right now in my apartment, I'm moving my apartment. It's kind of it's it's good because each of my kids are gonna have a room, but my kitchen now is like kind of being it's kind of beat down at this point because it's been ten years and I've done anything to it.
+
+[26:06] Like literally. But it's like sweet because you can fit eight people in my kitchen cooking and interacting and having fun without bumping butts. You know what I mean? Because I'm not worried about I'm not a commercial kitchen, the space isn't at a huge premium there. So I'm a little worried about how tight it's gonna be the next time around.
+
+[26:22] What do you think? And Stash is like, don't care, don't care. Okay. Uh fork in the Road Mobile Gallery from Mexican, Kentucky. Here's a question.
+
+[26:30] Lexington. I need to go back to Kentucky at some point soon. I had a good time. I like Kentucky. I like bourbon and I like ham.
+
+[26:35] If you like bourbon, you like ham. I mean, horses are okay. Do you like horses? Yeah. But you like bourbon?
+
+[26:41] Yeah. Do you like ham? Yeah. So, you know, Kentucky. Anyway.
+
+[26:44] Three yeses in a row. Yeah, right? Whoa. Why what is she doing here? She hates everything here.
+
+[26:49] Yeah. Right? I don't think they have hipsters in uh I didn't see any hipsters in Kentucky. No, they do in Louisville, for sure. Okay.
+
+[26:57] Yes, that's probably true. Yeah. Uh here's a question about uses for leftover eggs. Leftover 64 Celsius eggs. Now, for those of you out there, when you're doing low temperature cooking on eggs, uh, 90% of the eggs that you're going to use are one of three temperatures.
+
+[27:09] 62, 62 Celsius in an immersion circulator. If you cook a chicken egg at 62 Celsius for uh 45 minutes to an hour, you're gonna get like a classic eggs, Benedict egg in terms of the yolk, and the outside's gonna be custardy. If you want to make it harder on the outside, white, you can drag it through simmering water on the way to service, okay? And you just cook it in the shell, you crack it out, and it cracks out beautifully. It's wonderful, it's amazing, and the life-changing technique, yada yada.
+
+[27:34] 63 degrees Celsius, right? Or anything really above 62, like 62, 5, 62, three, uh, you know, 62, something there, 63, you get what's called a creamy yolk, where the yolk is creamy throughout, but is more like a sauce, almost like uh thick on glaze or a custard. Really nice. I really like that for uh bro like soups where you don't want it to bleed out entirely, but you want to be able to mix in eventually as a fine sauce or in an aspic. Sometimes I like it where you don't want it to run out entirely.
+
+[28:00] 64 is really, really creamy, but only sags a little bit. Now what I call it is just set. So those are the three temperatures that are gonna comprise 90% of the eggs that you cook in an immersion circulator. Alright? Okay.
+
+[28:15] Okay. I often run my circulator, uh my food truck for soft egg dishes, inevitably with some leftovers in a service. Never wanting to waste, especially a delicious fresh local egg. I chill them in an ice bath and use it the next day as an ingredient in other dishes. So far, discarding the alabumin and jet that you know the white and just using the yolk.
+
+[28:31] I started with salad dressings. Caesars, of course, but as an emulsifier in all uh in almost anything. And I just went the next step and subbed them in a Monero's cuisine's Hollandaise recipe, which we talked a little bit about last time. Uh instead of cooking the raw egg yolk bags and zippies in a circulator, I simply blended the uh cold 64 degrees C yolks with the vinegar reduction to make a great base for the butter to emulsify it into. It's freaking fantastic.
+
+[28:53] It works better than the original recipe. Take that, take that. It works better than the original recipe, and the thick texture uh coming out of the ISI because they were shooting their holidays out of the ISI gun is fantastic. That's a good use. My question, first, I can't think of any dangers outside of temperature control in doing this.
+
+[29:10] Can you? No. As long as the as long as you um you know are using it with it, it's an RTE food, right? So you treat it like any other RTE food where you've uh you know killed um, you know, the pathogens in it and you know use it accordingly. So if you let it sit out for a long time cold, then you're shafted.
+
+[29:28] You know what I mean? If you heat it up to temperatures that are going to be like if you put it in an ISI in a warm bane and you keep it in that Bane Marie at a temperature above the kill, you know, the kill point for you know whatever you're interested in, salmonella, listeria, whatever, uh, then you know, no, it's totally safe. So I can't think of any extra uh problems. Uh second, you must have uh have leftover low temp eggs from time to time. What do you like to do with them?
+
+[29:53] Uh thanks, and please send me a Searsol ASAP. Uh okay. Uh still thinking uh Sears On is the name to go with. Get it on versus off. Anyway, Mark Jensen's uh Fork in the Roll Mobile Galley.
+
+[30:05] You know, I never I mean like usually what I've never done a whole bunch like for service had sixty-four eggs. We you know would mostly run sixty-two's for Benedict and 62s you can honestly uh reuse the next day straight up. You know what I mean? Like you can because what we do is is we cook the 60 here. And you might be able to do this with a 63 or 64 as well.
+
+[30:27] So we cook the 60 uh let's say 62. We cook the egg at 62 for uh an hour, and usually we over we overload the the uh the thing, and so you know, once it gets back up to temp, we give it like an hour, an hour and fifteen minutes, right? And then we drop the temperature to 57. At 57 Celsius, there's no creep at all. It's totally safe, right?
+
+[30:51] And there's no creep at all in uh in the egg yolk texture over the course of a whole service. You could take those same eggs, put them in uh in cold water, whatever, put them in the fridge, bring them back up the next day, you know, so you then you cook off your next uh day's eggs, and then you put uh you know, after you cook them when it's time to re-therm, you throw the eggs from the uh the previous day in when you when you had it at 57, they come up to temp so that they're warm enough to serve in about 20 minutes, and then you 30, and then you can uh and then you can use them, you know, obviously use them first, but you can use them like yesterday's eggs uh without I've never noticed a loss in quality, uh unless you're rough with them and the whites can suffer a little bit. Now that's at 62. Once you get up to 63 and 64 and the whites start to get more set, you might have a little bit of weirder whites on the second day, but you can uh try it. But I think your use of the uh the egg yolk is uh awesome.
+
+[31:49] I can't think of any, I couldn't think of any uses for the whites. But someone will call in. I mean, you could always just crack them into a pot of boiling water, the thin whites will go away, hard cook those suckers, and then use them in an egg salad, and everybody knows that everybody who's anybody likes an egg salad. Stas, do you like an egg salad? Even Stas likes an egg salad.
+
+[32:07] Four yeses. Egg salad delicious. Jack, Joe, am I right on this? Yes. Egg salad.
+
+[32:12] God, I love egg salad. Uh it's really weird. Like it like theoretically you would think that I mean it's it's it's it's perceived as kind of like a low rent kind of a thing, but it's really delicious. Like, why would that be a low-end thing? You like celery in your egg salad?
+
+[32:25] Yeah. Yeah, you too. I know some people don't like celery in their egg salad. I think they're wrong. Okay.
+
+[32:30] Uh Mattia writes in about sous vide and safety. Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and you ready? Others. You like that, Joe? Others.
+
+[32:39] Okay. Thanks for a great show. Did you give a boo? Did you give a booty? I gave a little bit of a boo.
+
+[32:43] You gotta have like the boo button. You need a boo button. That's true. We should get like a ghost or something. Yeah, like did what did Booberry ever say a boo on air for booberry cereal?
+
+[32:52] I'll go through YouTube and I'll pull one out. Do you know a booberry uh contains uh FNDC blue one? I think it's one, right? And uh we have a container of it, maybe two, I can't remember. And uh, if you eat enough of that, you don't uh defecate blue, you defecate green.
+
+[33:07] Did you know that? No, but did you tell everybody about your cereal puffer yet? Can we get to that before the show ends? Uh yeah, why don't we want to Okay, so that's yeah, maybe I should talk about it. Did I talk about that at all?
+
+[33:19] Not really, dude. Alright, so it turns out in the olden days, when I say olden, I mean olden. Or currently, they still use this machine in uh Mexico, uh, and where's the other place? Possibly Poland. There's a third Peru, right?
+
+[33:30] Uh so when you wanted to make puff cereals, here's what you did. You took your grain, you tempered it out to I think around 12%, 12 to 14% moisture somewhere in there, right? Tempering very important. Uh I think you can do it with things other than grain, but that's mainly what they did. Uh and then you put it in a sealed chamber, all right.
+
+[33:45] And the sealed chamber has a porthole on it with a like a door that shuts down really tight. It's got a huge giant locking mechanism, like a giant vice grip on it. Then you spin it so that it keeps on uh spinning so that everything's even. It's like a tumbler, almost like a dryer, right? Then you put a uh uh uh a propane flame on it, like a big blower, like for a for uh for a furnace.
+
+[34:06] And you heat that sucker up until it gets up to like a hundred and seventy or a hundred and eighty psi, like three hundred and sixty-five degrees Fahrenheit, something like that. And when it gets up to there, you stop it, and you hit the lever with a lead pipe. Might be a steel pipe, but I'm hoping it's a lead pipe, because that's food, that's food safe, right? Uh you hit it and boom, the thing flies up and boom, the pressure releases, and uh each individual grain just puffs instantly into puffed wheat, puffed corn, puffed rice, puffed anything, right? And this is how puff cereal was originally made, and it was called a puffing gun.
+
+[34:42] And that is that's why, like if anyone of you remember the, you know, I don't, I was not born yet, but I used to listen to a comedian named Stan Freeberg from the 50s when I was growing up because my parents listened to him. And so, you know, I'm familiar with all the old marketing terms because he was an ad guy. He's still alive. Uh and uh and they the old um motto used to be shot from guns, because that's what they used to say about puff cereals that it was shot from guns because legitimately it was shot from puffing guns. They knew have newer technology called continuous puffers that no longer work on this batch technology, and they're only used in countries that can't uh don't have the infrastructure to support uh moving the larger pieces of continuous puffing equipment around, but they're still used, and they're made by the Piritan Manufacturing Corporation of Omaha, Nebraska, in the same way that they were made decades and decades and decades ago.
+
+[35:26] And the Museum of Food and Drink just received a couple of weeks ago our very own puffing gun, and I could not be more excited because I'm gonna puff everything. Like anything you I'm gonna puff the hell out of. I'm gonna take dried shrimp, I'm gonna see if I can puff shrimp. I don't know if I can because it's protein, not a carbo, whatever. I'm gonna puff it.
+
+[35:43] I'm gonna puff it. You name it, I'm gonna puff it. Like, I'm gonna take all these books on this bookshelf, I'm gonna try to puff these bookshelves. Um this summer, if you're in New York City, uh late summer, because we have to build a truck and we have to make it food grade and we have to get our permitting and all that. But look for the Museum of Food and Drink to be hauling a puffing gun around uh as the first step towards our cereal exhibit that we're gonna have as the first exhibit the Museum of Food uh puts out.
+
+[36:07] What do you think, Jack? And you know where it's being stored, people? Puffing guns being stored at the Heritage Meet, uh at the Heritage Meat Headquarters. Heritage Foods USA. Heritage Foods USA, but yeah.
+
+[36:16] Because not only is Heritage Radio and Heritage uh Heritage Foods, Heritage Meats a uh a longtime supporter of the museum, but Patrick Martins, our founder, is on the board. On the board. That's it. Okay. I've got great news.
+
+[36:30] What's that? William McGee just became a member. So that will be the title of today's episode. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[36:36] William McGee. William McGee. Thanks, man. William McGee. Nice.
+
+[36:39] Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, William. I appreciate it. Okay.
+
+[36:43] Uh Matea writes in about Sue Vid and safety. Uh hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and others. Thanks for a great show. I was recommended your show by a friend and started to try and catch up on your archive. Many hours of listening to Duke.
+
+[36:53] Nah, don't bother. I'm kidding. It's does like, yeah, really. Uh, to let you know how I am. I'm a computer electronic engineer, impassioned by cooking, and I'm living in Sweden.
+
+[36:59] A while back I started to learn about sous vide cooking as I'm totally amazed by it, especially cooking tough meats for long numbers of hours, 10, 24, 72 hours. I would like to try to learn to cook most food sous vide, especially all kinds of meat that benefit in both long time cooking and tender cuts, obviously shorter times. I'm currently using the poly science creative circulator, which I think is great, though I'm curious about the safety aspects. Where in the temperature zone is the actual danger zone or safe zones if you invert it. Is the so-called danger zone between 3.3 Celsius and 54 degrees 4 Celsius?
+
+[37:32] Or between 3.3 degrees Celsius and 60 degrees Celsius. 60, that's 140 for you guys out there. 60 is 140. Always remember 60 Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit. It's one of those magical numbers you need to remember.
+
+[37:43] Okay. At what temperature can uh uh I pasteurize safely and keep it there for long cooking? Does that temperature start at 55 degrees Celsius? Or do I need to move it up to 60 degrees Celsius? This is my main question.
+
+[37:53] Uh and which intervals shall I avoid, especially cooking long hours? This is my second main question. Though I'm aware that there are many other benefits to work in the 60 degrees plus domain for tough meats as enzymes get more active, etc. Although you know they get the act well, I'm I'm not gonna get into that, it would take too long. But I'm curious for a pure bacteria parasites killing perspective in this question.
+
+[38:11] The reason for the question, he said I find different resources that seem to be contradictory. Uh, and I'll reference them below. I'm interested in knowing that I get a decent reduction of all normal pathogens and parasites, including Triconello and cooking pork. What's the story behind the different statements? 54.4 versus 60.
+
+[38:26] And then he references uh Douglas Baldwin's sites, who he usually has pretty good numbers. Uh Thomas Keller's book, Under Pressure. Uh Thomas Keller's book under pressure specifically uh puts the danger zone at 4.4 to 60. So in other words, refrigeration temp upper sh up to 140. And that's my main gripe with that book, actually.
+
+[38:44] That's just it's wrong. I think, and you know, I've heard discussions of it with people who are involved. And the issue is they didn't want to get into complicated, they didn't want to get into complicated discussions about temperature versus time. Yeah, that that was like the that was like the unfortunate part about that book is is them saying that you shouldn't keep meats um below 140 60 degrees Celsius for long periods of time when everybody knows that cooking at 55 degrees Celsius for 72 hours is entirely safe and above 544 for any length of time in meat in beef, any length of time, uh not ground beef, but any length of time for a whole muscle cut over 544 uh over 117 minutes. So 117 minutes and above a minimum of 117 minutes guarantees safety according to the old food codes.
+
+[39:32] So uh so that thing on uh the under pressure numbers is like entirely strange uh thing and kind of I think like the weak spot of that book. The recipes I think seem to be pretty good, right? Mm-hmm. Uh I mean, although I don't know, I haven't cooked a lot of them. Uh then Suvid uh looking at cuisine technology website, it states that the danger zone is between 4.4 and 60, but then they say at the rule of thumb is that vegetative pathogen and parasite development can grow only below 54.4, which seems fair uh compared to the bald wind sites.
+
+[40:02] And then uh it it references an interesting um there's a bunch of sites that say a bunch of a bunch of different things. I'm not gonna go through each one of them because they're all different. And most of this stuff people are are are basically uh wrong. Uh there's, you know, there's one site that's he mentions that's interesting called uh the a food authority. What is it?
+
+[40:22] It's something I'll have to look at it and then and call you out later, but it's basically saying that there needs to be more study. Right, right? Which is absolutely true. Here's the real deal, okay? Uh 140 degrees, 60 degrees Celsius, is the temperature at which most of the pathogens that we're interested in are killed in very, very quick order, right?
+
+[40:42] So uh that number is on the safety uh in the food safety thing. Anything below that is is shown as this uh danger zone because uh they don't trust you to do accurate measurements at anything below that temperature, and if it hits that temperature, you're pretty much guaranteed to have wiped out anything that's a problem, right? And that's why they choose those numbers. And because they assume that there's a lot higher contamination on ground meat, even though the pathogens of interest are the same on ground meat as on uh fresh meat, they put the ground meat numbers even higher because they want to make sure that you rapidly kill everything on there, right? Does that mean that in order to kill bacteria you need to make it up to that temperature?
+
+[41:25] Absolutely not. Okay? So most pathogens grow very well up to about 40 degrees Celsius, and somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees Celsius go into a static no growth phase. All right. So anything above 50 degrees Celsius, so anything below 50 I don't trust uh uh as as a safety measure for cooking uh for cooking things, for killing bacteria.
+
+[41:51] And in fact, I don't use anything below 54.4, even though there are probably numbers that but are below 54.4 degrees Celsius that will kill uh most of the bacteria of interest if cooked long enough. I don't have any data that supports the thermal death times for a bacteria at those temperatures, and so I don't recommend any procedures below that temperature for pasteurization purposes, okay? Because remember, the lower you go on a temperature, just be so there's two things you want to do when you're when you're heating something. You want to make it taste good, three things. You want to make it taste good, that's the most important thing from my standpoint.
+
+[42:25] Two, you want to prevent bacteria from growing, right? And you want to kill the bacteria that are present. Cooking over 50, uh, you know, and definitely over 52 Celsius, which is Bruno Gusot's number, is going to prevent the pathogens. There are bacteria that grow well above that temperature. There's bacteria that grow on thermal vents in 2022 degree uh, you know, uh water.
+
+[42:46] Uh but the pathogens of interest aren't going to be growing above uh uh it will take Gusot's, you know, nice but you know, number 52. They're not gonna be growing above that number, right? But the question is how fast are you killing them, right? And so for the bacteria that are present that you're trying to kill, right? The lower the temperature above the begin kill zone, the longer it takes.
+
+[43:09] And I don't have curves that tell you how long to cook a piece of meat to pasteurize it when you're at 54 below 54.4. And so I don't give any uh numbers for below 54.4. So the the the problem is is that uh you know they write the codes and this this term safety zone, danger zone, is is supposed to be like kind of a bone-headed rule that we can all just follow and will guarantee safety. And it is. If you follow that old, you know, uh, you know, fridged up to uh 60 degrees Celsius, 140 rule, yeah, you're gonna make safe products because that's inherently safe.
+
+[43:47] However, uh it's not nuanced enough. There are many products that are safe. They're cooked below that temperature. It's just a question of now you need to actually worry about being precise and you need to worry about how long you cook something, right? So it puts an extra variable in that the food code under its normal guises doesn't want to handle.
+
+[44:05] They'd much rather just have a cook at the 60s so it's safe kind of a thing. You know what I mean? Because remember, the regulatory boards out there, they're not, they're not tasked with giving you as a cook everything that you want to make the products as delicious as you want them to do. Their only task is to ensure that food that is served to the public is safe. That's it.
+
+[44:25] They don't care whether it's delicious. That's not their job. You know what I mean? I mean it's dead. Yep.
+
+[44:29] Yeah. Okay. Was that helpful or no? Yes. Okay.
+
+[44:32] Uh Enigo Aguirre writes in on carbonation. Dear Dave, I've been trying to apply carbonation to beverages for quite some time with poor results. I've tried the ISI soda siphon and got very poor carbonation, even after using very cold water. That makes sense. It's very I'll tell you how to do it in a minute.
+
+[44:47] Uh various types of liquid shaking after each CO2 charge and leaving it in the fridge long enough to help further uh uh dissolution of CO2 or dissolving of CO2. In the meantime, I got a hold of a 300 gram CO2 bottle and a beer regulator that I'm trying to connect with a soft drink bottle through a tire valve. Uh see the photo. I'm still having poor results because there's a slight leak of CO2 through the valve. Uh there are no screws through the valve, and I believe uh I've been searching around a lot and cannot manage the PSI that I'm aiming for.
+
+[45:15] But I'm working to find a kind of glue that would stick to the plastic and rubber and would tolerate high pressure. Hopefully we'll have it solved by tomorrow, though if you're aware of any simpler way of attaching a bottle to a regulator, I would really appreciate your advice. I'm going crazy. On the product end, I'm trying to work on a gin and tonic made by cold infused quinine bark, citric acid and sugar, and gin. The flavor is more dirty than a GNT, but nevertheless interesting and inspired by your gin and juice that I had a few weeks ago on a trip to New York City.
+
+[45:37] Would like to serve it in a champagne glass. My questions How do you manage to get such greatly thin and elegant bubbles? I work on it. Uh what PSI temperature combination do you apply and how many recharges do you apply in order to get the right carbonation? And do you know the amount of CO2 that you can uh get to dissolve per liter?
+
+[45:52] I've read that champagne holds about 12 grams per liter. Is this about right for the cocktail? What are the differences between carbonating soft drinks and other cocktails that include an alcohol? And I understand that with alcohol you need more PSI, but how much? Any other tricks?
+
+[46:03] Thanks so much in advance. Excuse me for sending such a long email and eagle Aguirre. Okay, first of all, uh so I looked at the picture. He is using a tire valve, which is a Schrader valve that is being uh kind of bolted into the top of a regular PET bottle. This technique goes back to about 2002 from the grandmaster of carbonating at home, uh Richard J.
+
+[46:24] Kinch. And I noticed that uh his technique was ripped off in a bunch of instructables without uh for well, of course without crediting him because people are D bags. So, uh, you know, I had already had at that point a professional uh a professional carbonating rig at home because that's the only way I knew how to get carbonation at that point when he wrote it. But when I read his uh article on home carbonation, it was before I had the carbonator caps, which is how I do it now. Essentially, his technique is a homemade version of the carbonator cap sold by liquid bread.
+
+[46:53] I highly recommend that you purchase a liquid bread carbonator cap and the bottle in bag uh syrup uh not the bottle in the bag, the uh the pre mix uh um ball lock valves that go with it. They are they're very cheap. The you can get the cap for uh 15 bucks at any homebrew supply online, and you can get the rest of the stuff which goes right on your hose with no leaks and a hose clamp for about three bucks. And with that, you can turn any uh soda bottle into a really great carbonation uh thing. Aside from the leak, which may or may not be the problem, when you're carbonating straight water, you're gonna want to be about 35 PSI.
+
+[47:31] When you're carbonating a cocktail like a gin and tonic, you're gonna want to shoot for about 14% alcohol and about 45 PSI. When you're carbonating water, you're gonna want it to be about maybe 40, 35 to 40. You're gonna want it to be at zero degrees Celsius. There should be chunks of ice in it, it should be cold. Uh remember it's gonna heat as you carbonate it and it's gonna get warm because you're not feeling it while you're doing it.
+
+[47:49] Two, when you're carbonating a cocktail, you're gonna want it to be about twenty-two degrees Fahrenheit when you're working. That's the number where you want 22, 23, at about 14%. That's the number. Uh and you're gonna want to go 45. The reason you need more uh uh carbonation is because alcohol absorbs more CO2.
+
+[48:05] So to have the effect of CO2 on you, you're gonna need to have um uh higher pressure. The other thing you're gonna need to do is get rid of the air space when you're carbonating. It's a classic thing. That's the reason you got bad carbonation in your in your ISI was the ISI is very difficult, especially if you use a soda siphon, you can actually get better carbonation results out of using a regular whipped cream maker than you can out of the soda one because at least you can purge the head space. If you're using an ISI and you want to get a good result, you throw in, get it very cold.
+
+[48:31] You can even keep ice in the ISI. You put one charger in, you shake it a little bit, you foam it all off instantly to get rid of all of the bubbles and nucleation sites that are in the thing, and to purge the head space of oxygen and nitrogen, whatever else. Then you throw in your second charger, shake it, let it sit, then it will be carbonated if you release it slowly. When you're doing it in a bottle, you need to squeeze out all of the headspace, which is why soda bottles are so great. Get rid of all that air in the headspace, only fill it uh about three quarters full.
+
+[48:56] Close it, carbonate it once, let it foam off, getting rid of nucleation sites. Carbonate it again, foam it off again, get rid of more nucleation sites, carbonate it a third time. By the third time, you should let it sit in the in the freezer for a little while to mellow out. Then you can uncap it very carefully and pour it and you should be good. The other problem you're having with that valve is unless you shut off the gas, you're opening up the gas when it's under pressure.
+
+[49:14] It's gonna make a mess everywhere. But anyway, so go get the carbonator cap. Uh make sure that everyone gives uh high praises to Richard uh J. Kinch, the the granddaddy of the carbonation cap, right? Lastly, they're gonna kick me off here in a minute.
+
+[49:33] But lastly, Pauline writes out uh from Alaska. I'm a huge fan of your show. Well, potting up some starch for the garden. I heard you discuss ways to screw up immersion blender mayo and suggest my solution a wide-mouth pint mason jar. Works for me.
+
+[49:45] I also have a question, a topic rather. I was hoping that you might pontificate a bit on smoking salmon and other fish. I live in an interior of Alaska, where they have awesome fish, and make annual pilgrimage to dip net the yearly quota for various salmon species. This is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. I fillet some, cut some into steaks for near immediate consumption, leave a huge a few whole for extravagant harvest parties, and smoke slash dry the rest.
+
+[50:08] Not like that palette pasty stuff shaved that they sell in the store. Our smoked salmon should be almost jerky-like and full of smoky, slightly salty, sweet flavor. I love the smoked salmon. Uh I love smoked salmon and want to do better, learn more, etc. Thus, I'd like to hear what you might suggest, including ways you'd like to use this fish candy.
+
+[50:25] Uh okay, first of all, just so you know, like the like uh I'm sure most of our listeners know that, like, you know, there's salmon, there's Atlantic salmon, right? And then there's Pacific salmon, and they're not the same species. And in the Pacific salmon, there's a bunch of different species that they get up there in Alaska. They get the Chinook slash the king, which is the highest in fat content, the sake, which is you know also known as the red, which doesn't have quite as much fat, but has a real kind of punchy salmon flavor, so a lot of people like it. The coho, uh, which is also kind of high in fat, and then the chum, which is lower, and the pink, which is lower.
+
+[50:54] They're not bad, they're just lower in fat, and everyone wants the super high-fat salmons, both because of the omega bull crap, but also because they like the luscious flavor of fat. And if you're smoking, actually, high fat is nice because the fat's gonna pick up more on the smoke. Okay. So, um, so here's what I'm assuming you first of all, that the stuff that you're saying is pale pasty shaved stuff in the supermarket. I look, I agree.
+
+[51:13] Smoked, most smoked uh salmon that you get in the supermarket when it's vacuum-packed is wretched. But the same style of salmon, i.e., not the salmon you're talking about, the same style of salmon is incredibly delicious when you get someone to uh cut it, hand-cut it off of the whole fillet, and you eat it after it's never been vacuum-packed and allowed to get all mushy and nasty. I can attest, they are not even the same product. You know, I I don't know who sells it in Alaska, but when you go to uh New York, go to buy Russ and Daughters and have them hand slice you some of their some of their uh their their salmon. It's incredibly delicious.
+
+[51:47] But so the procedure that you're using in Alaska, I'm assuming is you do an initial brine. The initial brine is going to kill uh some of the uh or it's gonna prevent some of the bacteria from growing. It's gonna be a kind of a curing step. Then you're gonna air dry it, then you're gonna equalize it, or you're gonna equalize it rather, then you're gonna air dry it, and then you're gonna smoke it. I'm assuming you're talking cold smoking.
+
+[52:06] Actually, you know what to hear the thing? I did a bunch, a bunch of research on uh on the kind of safety. Uh, and I guess we should talk about it next time because I'm told I'm gonna have to leave now. Should I talk about it more in depth next time? Or should I go?
+
+[52:18] Do I have time? Next time. Next time? Alright. Well, on the well, Pauline, I'm gonna talk more about it next time.
+
+[52:24] It's a really interesting subject, especially safety. There's a couple of references I want to give you. They're cutting me off here, but guess what? The New York Times came up with a thing saying uh if you don't have high blood pressure, uh you shouldn't worry about your sodium intake. And not that I believe that study more than any other, because I'm very skeptical, but told you've been saying that for a while.
+
+[52:41] Told ya! Told ya, cooking issues. I want to give another shout out to William McGee. Thanks for becoming a member, man. Cooking issues.
+
+[52:59] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[53:23] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out Chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org, a nonprofit, member supported radio station.
+
+[0:22] We're millions strong. With folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education. We are entertainment. We are the future of food.
+
+[0:32] May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show.
+
+[0:56] Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Robertus P3 in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How are you guys doing?
+
+[1:37] Calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Join in the studio. As usual with uh Nastash and the Hammer. How are you doing?
+
+[1:46] Good. Yeah? You alright? Yeah. Uh Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, plus uh uh a host of new people that are coming uh on board.
+
+[1:54] We have uh Eddie, right? Correct. Yeah, you're you're uh gonna be uh another associate producer over here at the Hurst Ray number. Yes, the associopath producer, yes, that's me. Yeah, we're coming up with a new uh a new thing, the uh sociopath producer.
+
+[2:06] Uh stay tuned for that. And uh DeRick in the engineering booth, correct? What's up? Yes, right. How you doing?
+
+[2:11] Thanks, guys. Yeah, so we got a full studio today, which I like. Uh and uh so uh what happened this week. I just got back from my 20th year reunion at uh at the Yale College over there. And uh you know what, Sas?
+
+[2:25] But the people, I was expecting like a bunch of really terrible looking people. Like I expected like just like a real like poop fest of like awful looking folk, like you know, totally decrepit, bloated out, nasty, like droopy, like just all bad. Yeah, you know what? They looked great. Really?
+
+[2:42] Yeah, they look great. Did they like your talk? Oh, yeah, I gave a talk, uh it's called uh turbo talk, which is like uh a variant of uh this kind of like 20 slides, 20 seconds, which I can't pronounce like petcha kuchka, petcha ku pet, you know, something like that. Uh yeah, it went well, I think. I mean, uh I did my normal strategy, which was fit a 30-minute talk into six minutes.
+
+[3:01] Yeah. So I just spoke as fast as I could, and I didn't have any water. I went completely dry. My wife was in the audience. Jen, she said that I was turning red in the face, and that you know, you could see that like little bit of dry mouth spittle forming on the edges of my lips as I was like, you know, belting out, you know, at eight billion words a minute, what was going on.
+
+[3:19] But I think it went all right. I think it was fine. But anyway, the interesting fact to me is the fact that uh everyone looked uh really good, and uh it just kind of drove home to me one of the issues I think we're gonna be looking into the museum, and I need to do my own uh research on, is that um the the problem with nutrition in this country is uh is kind of exacerbated, I think, by the fact that the people who are making the rules in general are people that aren't living the problems. So you have like a group of extremely educated, uh rather probably well-to-do, fairly liberal uh Ivy uh league types, and these are like the policymakers uh of for this sort of thing. And uh they all look great because they have the time, energy, and knowledge to spend on this problem, and then you have the the rest of the people that are getting legislated uh at and and preached at by this group of people who are the ones having the real problems.
+
+[4:16] So I you know I really think uh you know we're gonna be spending a lot of time kind of delving into the stats and kind of breaking this problem uh down uh more thoroughly. But it was really uh, I mean, I know it's anecdotal, one college reunion, but really kind of stark uh slap in the face. In a good way, f in in a in some sense, because I was you know surprised at how good everyone looked, but there's a darker side to the looking good. Uh okay. Uh had a comment in uh from Mike Mallory.
+
+[4:44] Can you forward this to Dave Nastasha? Uh long time listener, love the show. You answered a question about gluten intolerance that was a bit misinformed on the William McGee episode. I love it's called the William McGee episode. Not Harold, William listener, uh uh Harold doesn't listen.
+
+[4:59] Although Harold might be here next week. True or false? He is gonna be here in Brooklyn? Or on the phone. Uh well, he's gonna be in New York City in the real life this next week because of this like science festival thing that's going World Science Festival that uh Mustache and I are doing some sort of uh cocktail for.
+
+[5:15] You didn't know you were going, but you are. Yeah. Uh uh so, anyways, so yeah, he's gonna be in town and uh if uh if he is going to be in town on the Tuesday, I said that I would handcuff him and bring him into the studio. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[5:29] I think he actually leaves Tuesday, so a lot depends on when he's leaving, but I don't even know that he's eaten in Roberta's before, so maybe we can woo him with like even maybe above the pizza level. If Harold McGee comes in, can he get above the pizza and salad level of uh of cooking issues remuneration for uh for service rendered? Certainly. I think I'll even pay for his card to JFK. Wow!
+
+[5:49] Nice job, Joe. Whoa. Wow. Joe's a baller now. Yeah, you like that?
+
+[5:55] That's crazy. All right. Uh okay. Uh sorry. Uh you answered a question about gluten intolerance that was a bit misinformed on the William McGee episode.
+
+[6:02] Gluten intolerance is not the same as celiac. Uh it's well known uh in the research that a good chunk of the population mounts an immune reaction to gluten, gliadin, uh, but is not uh specifically a celiac or have like uh you know a health uh what would you call it? This is paraphrasing a health endangering allergy or something. What would you call it anyway? Uh gluten intolerance is a gray area but still measurable via lab test uh below full-blown celiac, which is more severe and immediate and an immediate uh immunoglobulin uh response.
+
+[6:30] I say gray area because there's a huge spectrum of mucosal membrane-based immune immune response, IgA uh uh things that mount slow inflammatory reactions to gluten. It's often called subclinical gluten intolerance because the body has a measurable reaction, but not a true allergic reaction. It's a different type of immune response, but you should know the difference between an intolerance and an allergy. Not all folks avoid gluten because it's bad for celiacs. That's not to say most people who avoid gluten at restaurants aren't full of sugar honey iced tea.
+
+[6:58] Uh it would be nice if chefs knew that there isn't just a black and white celiac or not, and that there's a whole class of immune mediated reactions, aka gluten intolerance. Mike Mallory. Mike, point well taken. Uh point well taken. Too simplified in the last thing, but uh, I guess simplified for effect, which is there's a whole uh group of people there who are full of sugar honey iced tea.
+
+[7:22] But uh I think my point last week was also that I'm kind of glad. Like, I don't care. I'm glad. Look, people like me who have no problem with the gluten, like we're gonna pound as much gluten as we can. In fact, I was talking to someone at the at the reunion who's gluten in uh you know, gluten intolerant.
+
+[7:37] She's actually celiac, and so we were discussing this uh this issue with them, and she was like, Yeah, man, if I could eat gluten, I would be swimming through loaves of baguettes. You know, I'd be like chomping, swimming through loaves of baguettes and you know, inhaling pizzas as fast as I could eat them because stuff's delicious, but uh, but can't anyway. But you know, again, thank goodness for the people who don't uh consume it uh for no apparent reason because they create a huge industry that allows people like uh our good piper to be able to eat better products. Yeah? But anyway, point well taken.
+
+[8:11] Now, back to the mystical myth. Oh, Stas. So you went to uh the Rhode Island, correct? Yeah. And you went to go see now you can't re oh you can't, can't, don't.
+
+[8:21] You don't eat horseshoe crabs. But uh horseshoe crabs, uh, you think that they're kind of interesting when they're on the ground on the beach. They're actually horrifying. You know, that they're they're I mean, I know that they're interesting and fascinating and they're a throwback, a living fossil, so I don't want to get any comments about how I'm uh maligning them. They're horrifying, horrifying like little creatures.
+
+[8:41] So uh what'd you go see? We we went to the hotel where they were having a mating, a meeting event. Yeah. For these guys. And uh we were supposed to be in a boat, but they made us put on waiters.
+
+[8:53] I told you that was gonna happen. I know. But it wasn't covered, it was just a couple, a couple, like every couple feet. We said it was a crappy weekend, so it kind of worked out. The moon wasn't out, or there was pouring, they were yeah.
+
+[9:05] Yeah, so Stas did not, you have to do it again. I know. Oh yeah. Yeah, so here's what happened. So uh in the span of my young life, between eight years old and uh ten years old, I witnessed some of the most horrifying biblical proportion natural events in uh kind of the history of uh New Jersey and kind of the little eastern seaboard thing there, right?
+
+[9:27] So we like we didn't have that many hurt in 77 we got hit by uh my my name David. It was pretty bad, not bad by you know Sandy standards, but you know, I was like, okay, I was little, so it seemed like a big deal. Then uh uh when I was eight years old, we went to Cape I went to Cape Cod to a thing uh to a camp and witnessed one of these things by mistake, and it was I had to wade ashore and and the entire ground in the bay was was just coated with these monstrous, monstrous, monstrous, monstrous, monstrous horseshoe crabs. And you couldn't avoid them, and as an eight-year-old, you know, not being versed in horseshoe crabs, you're like, how much? Right.
+
+[10:06] And uh furthermore, I learned a couple of years later that that the horseshoe crab blood, uh which is copper-based and not uh not uh iron-based in terms of its oxygen carry ability, was incredibly valuable at the time uh in research, and so I thought I was gonna make a business of going back. I thought I was gonna become a millionaire, like destroying all these dreaded horseshoe crabs and milking their blood out of them for profit. It didn't happen. I don't know, it didn't happen. And then, like right after that, the cicadas, or right before that, it can my brother guys made me, the cicadas came out in Bergen County, New Jersey, and coated the ground and made a deafening, awful triffid-like din of horrible cicada, like it's just in crunching of stepping on cicada, the worst thing ever for a guy that hates bugs.
+
+[10:51] And it's supposedly happening now, but now is not it's not biblical. Is anyone called in and be like, oh my god, the cicadas? No, right? Have you heard it? Have you seen people running and screaming covered by cicadas?
+
+[11:02] School buses full of horrified children. No. And it's not like it was two cycles ago, 34 years ago when I witnessed it. And then the 1981 gypsy moth plague that hit the uh east coast and deforested a whole bunch of stuff. So, you know, what I'm looking for is a bunch of uh kind of biblically bad natural signs to come on.
+
+[11:20] I I don't really want that to happen. Anyway, so you you didn't get uh you didn't get that, huh, Stas? No, it was unfortunate. Yeah, well, you know, maybe maybe this stuff is best experienced when you're a kid. Yeah.
+
+[11:30] You think? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now all we got is you can't walk in the woods because of Lyme disease.
+
+[11:35] It's not as visual, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, in old Lyme, by the way, uh, last week after the after the thing. The heart of Lyme disease, and apparently Lyme disease is still going strong there.
+
+[11:44] Like hardcore. I was hoping kind of to get it so I could get it in the official place. I got my Lyme disease in Brantford. No, man, I got my Lyme disease in Lyme. Bang!
+
+[11:54] Uh I'm just kidding, you don't want to get Lyme disease, it's horrible, it can cause uh permanent central nervous system problems if not treated properly. Yada yada. This do not take this as a making fun of the disease. It's horrible. Okay.
+
+[12:04] Lucas writes in all about ice cream. Hey, cooking issues, radio team. Big fan of the show, especially Dave's tirades against ever changing and contradictory health fads. Here's the question. I'm a big fan of Fiore da Latte ice cream.
+
+[12:15] Milk, cream, sugar, and nothing more. You like that style, Stas? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[12:20] Yeah. Where do you where do you where do you have it mostly? Not here. Well, when you go to Italy because you're an America hater, like, where do you normally get it? Oh, the small towns.
+
+[12:29] Small small towns, small towns Italy. Which I had when I was a kid and could never forget. Every time I see it at a restaurant or ice cream shop, I order it. The thing is the texture is always somewhat disappointing. Correct you are.
+
+[12:43] Correct you are. Wait, actually, this is not from is this one from Lucas? This is not from Lucas. This is from Jose. Man.
+
+[12:50] Lucas, your question's coming later on. Jose, I apologize. This is your question. Where are we? Okay, every time I see it at a restaurant or ice cream shop, I order it.
+
+[12:58] The thing is the texture is always somewhat disappointing. Either they pump it up with excessive uh quantity of hydrocolloids, making it pasty or gummy, or it is slightly granular, probably globules of fat clumping up and making butter, or ice crystals, frankly. You know, the the issue here is um yeah, is that uh the texture is a big problem with this style of ice. We'll get into it. Uh I've tried to make it at home multiple times.
+
+[13:20] I have a uh de longi with a built-in freezer, but I keep getting the slightly granular result, which is not surprising, since after refrigeration, the cream fat rises to the top. By the way, that's a right there, it's a classic sign, it's under frozen. The problem with uh the problem with the home ice cream freezers that have the uh built-in refrigeration units is that they just simply aren't very powerful. Like if you look at uh Carpajani colalite used to make a version that has a similar capacity to your deLongi, but the machine is a good three times bigger. And the reason is because they have a like a serious compressor built into it.
+
+[13:55] And the small compressors, like if the if it doesn't ice over like instantly as soon as you turn it on, it means that it just doesn't have the are you allowed to say cojones? Is that yeah, yeah, cojones? It doesn't have the cojones uh to freeze it down fast enough. And so if you look at the ratings on the Delonghi, people are talking 25, 35 minute batch times for uh a load of ice cream. And in the ice cream, you really want a batch time.
+
+[14:18] I mean, look, commercial people, they're doing batch times of seven, eight minutes on ice cream, longer on cerveys, but like seven, eight minutes on ice creams. Uh, and the reason is is a faster freezing uh means smaller crystal sizes. So you're a little bit hampered because you're dealing with uh larger crystal sizes to begin with, uh, because you're long freeze times. Then, secondly, if you turn it off too soon before it freezes uh, you know, a little more completely than what you have it now, you have a big liquid phase, and that liquid phase is going to cause some of these problems and also exacerbate your crystals because the rest of the stuff, as you put it in your freezer to harden, right, will quiescently freeze into much larger granules. So, under fro like so under frozen stuff tastes fine, kind of straight out of the machine because you just pound it and it's kind of like soft serve, and you're not noticing the crystals as much.
+
+[15:04] But on hardening, those under frozen ice creams are going to it's going to accentuate that crystal problem. Now, you have a third problem in that you're dealing with uh you're dealing with an ice cream that doesn't have any inherent added emulsifiers from egg yolks, right? Now, what you call uh what you call uh Fiore de Latte ice cream, which by the way is not made out of uh Fior del Latte uh uh cow's milk mozzarella, also a delicious product, right? Different product. Just means flour of the milk, right, Italian speaker?
+
+[15:34] Check this out. Stas Oh God, you just told this story grew up knowing Spanish. Why? Because she's half Mexican and grew up in LA, right? So it makes sense that she would speak Spanish.
+
+[15:47] If I was half Mexican and grew up in LA, I would speak Spanish. My kids speak Spanish because they grew up in New York. Me, I'm an idiot. I don't speak Spanish. Here's what she says.
+
+[15:55] I learned Italian in college and forgot the Spanish. The hell's that all day? I didn't learn it in college. I learned it from a boyfriend. Even worse.
+
+[15:59] I was trying to make it less embarrassing for you. My God. Wow. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[16:08] Okay. So before I get into this, so what you're calling uh Fior de Latte ice cream is what we in the States call Philadelphia style. Philly style with no egg yolks, no nothing. It's just milk, uh, typically milk, cream, sugar, uh, vanilla with no stabilizers. Now, the classic examples of this stuff in the U.S.
+
+[16:27] used to be Briars. So Briars is a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania style ice cream, and they used to tout the fact that they were made with uh only those ingredients. And they had a very, very fast freeze time. Uh and so the results were good straight out of the box if you lived close to Philadelphia. If you tried to buy Briars and you live far away from Philadelphia or wherever their packing plants were, or if you made the mistake of buying that half gallon of Briar's ice cream and then not consuming the entire half gallon the instant it was open, it turned to crap.
+
+[16:57] And that's and the reason is is because there's no stabilizers or emulsifiers in it to prevent crystal growth in your freezer where it freezes and thawed freezer. So they got around the first problem, initial graininess, by um just having a very, very fast freeze time in commercial uh continuous freezers, but they couldn't get around the secondary problem of it turning to crap in your crappy home. I'm not saying your home freezer is crappy, but your crappy home freezer, because it because it is. Yeah, yeah. Uh they couldn't get around that problem without uh emulsifiers.
+
+[17:26] So what did they do? Uh very, very quietly, uh, I think like some sometime in the last decade, they started uh doping briars with uh stabilizers, like carrageenan and things like that. Carragean's a good one because you can use extremely small quantities of it. Okay, now to get back to your point. Uh usually on Philadelphia style uh ice creams or in Fior latte they're fairly high fat and that high fat is to get around the fact that you are now I don't know a lot about Fiordalate but I do know a lot about Philly because I used to make Philly style ice cream all the time uh you know my my family doesn't come from there now but I have a lot of them that come from outside the Philly area York and Pennsylvania that's why I love pretzels so much anyway uh the one of the tricks is it has a higher fat content than you would get out of a standard custard ice cream so you typically you know in instead of like from for my ice cream I typically use one to one milk to cream uh but for custard based ice cream and you know the gelato heads are going to use probably even less uh cream than that they're gonna use more milk but more egg yolks and more sugar for a gelato style and don't let anyone tell you that in gelato they don't dope that stuff with uh don't dope that stuff with stabilizer and by the way I'm gonna go out on another limb and get my get my head chopped off by people I like American ice cream every uh bit as much as I like Italian gelato.
+
+[18:43] In fact because I grew up with it I have a soft spot for a properly done American ice cream that can't be taken by anyone else's ice cream in gelato and I've eaten it in small towns in Italy in large towns in Italy in tourist traps in Italy and in the places like you might as well have their gelato in Italy. Right? And usually what it is is heavily loaded with stabilizers super doped with flavors right like that's why it has those intense punchy colors because they have so much it's just so much of muchness and it's good, but I wouldn't say that I would always want to have that over like a good old-fashioned scoop of and and and I like I like the quote unquote French but American style ice creams, and which means custard based, and I also like uh love a good Philly style ice cream. Okay. Now, so in a Philly-style ice cream, you're gonna go higher on the cream.
+
+[19:29] So you're gonna probably go two to one cream to milk in that range. Once you get in that range, you're running into a couple of big problems. One, uh, if you over churn that sucker, it'll get kind of very buttery tasting, and you'll and you'll notice that, which is why, by the way, the ice cream machine I recommend for use at home is standard old Rock Salt ice ice cream makers. They make an unbeatable style, they're a pain in the ass, but pain in the butt. But they make an unbelievable uh ice cream.
+
+[20:01] You know, just just saying. But uh with even with those, you have to be careful in very, very high cream rate uh recipes about over-turning. If you over-churn your ice cream, it has a very characteristic buttery flavor that's different uh uh from uh graininess caused by ice crystals, and you'll definitely get a kind of butter note uh on it, and I think sometimes the overturned stuff has a little bit of a chalkiness to it, but I don't know. I just made that up off the top of my head. It sounds right.
+
+[20:29] Yeah, yeah, it sounds right. Could be wrong, but sounds right. Uh okay, so that said, let's move to uh ways to fix this problem. So typically, if you're gonna add stabilizers, you want to add the smallest amount of stabilizer possible. Uh or if you're into a natural head, you might want to go not natural, because all the stuff's natural.
+
+[20:48] I hate that, I hate this so much. I why don't I even say that? The stuff's natural. What I mean is if you want to go into something that doesn't freak people out, is what I meant. Uh, you know, go into the carrageenans, although that kind of was caragina freak out?
+
+[21:01] I I don't think no, carrageans don's not freak out. No freak out, no, stuff, no. Okay, so uh the the good news about carrageen in it is it has a synergistic effect with milk, so you can use absurdly small amounts of it to get the effects you want. Uh right? So typically in ice cream, they'll have a two-part system.
+
+[21:17] They'll have uh a gelling system and a thickening system, one to prevent crystal formation and the other one to prevent the whey from separating from the uh whey. It's called way off wave from separating and you know preventing other problems. So typically you'll have a two-part system like a carrageenin, maybe locust bean gum or a carrageenan guar. And you can add very small amounts of that stuff and not make it gummy and do a really good job stabilizing. Or you could buy commercial stabilizer bases, uh uh, you know, things and add them.
+
+[21:44] And by and large, the you can get them that are all natural. You don't have to get the ones, and when I say all natural, I mean just like seaweed powders. You don't have to go to ones that have uh lots of like weird emulsifiers in them, things like that. Another thing you can do, I know this is going against what you're doing. The great thing about uh this kind of ice cream that I used to like is that I didn't cook it at all ever.
+
+[22:02] It was all cold. It had a real really, really fresh taste. A lot of people heat their Philly style ice cream so that they can get the sugar in, but I just waited a lot longer for the sugar to dissolve and never heated it. So it had a real fresh flavor. So that's that's I think what you're shooting at.
+
+[22:15] So I want to go for things that don't necessarily uh need uh uh a lot of heating. What you might want to do is take uh a portion of it, right? So so of the things that can't be heated that are good stabilizers, guar. Guar. It doesn't need to be heated.
+
+[22:29] You have to get the flavor free guar though. Uh another thing you might want to look at is um uh gel an. Now, gel an you do need to heat to a boil, but what you could do is just heat a small portion of the milk with the gel an to the boil, set it as the gel, and then blend it into a fluid gel, and that makes a very good flavor release, super creamy ice cream, right? Uh super creamy. Uh it's on a cooking issues blog.
+
+[22:52] Another thing you can look at just good old-fashioned gelatin. Unless you are uh uh vegetarian, uh gelatin makes a very good uh you know uh uh addition to ice creams to to decrease the amount of crystallization you get, and you can warm a portion of the milk up to hot with the jet with the gelatin and then temper the rest of your milk slash cream back into it and still have a relatively fresh taste. If you want to go Sam Mason style and all you want is the uncooked flavor, but you don't mind the uh uh adding things that aren't milk, he uses barely pasteurized egg yolks, and they're not cooked into a custard, and that's also interesting. It's not the same thing as you're looking at, but it's also interesting. For a last thing, on a milk-based only, you might want to look at, and there's a small subset.
+
+[23:33] You ever been to Sicily Styles? No. Me neither. Eddie ever been to Sisley? They make an ice cream over there, me neither.
+
+[23:38] They make an ice cream over there that uh where they thicken it with starch. It's a it's cornstarch-thickened ice cream. And I haven't had it, but there's a bunch of people on the internet who love it, and that stuff is so stabilized. It has relatively good flavor. Oh, by the way, back on gelatin.
+
+[23:52] The reason gelatin is good is because gelatin has a very good, good flavor release because it it melts. First of all, it's not free sauce stable, so it breaks up after it's frozen and thaws out, it goes away in the mouth anyway, has very little flavor impact. Gelatin is like flavor release par excellence, right? Gelan, which I said before, which is microbe derived, also, by the way, I'm talking uh low acyl gelatin, which is the hard one that you break up to fluid gels, also very good flavor release. Starch in low levels has fairly good flavor release, but it does mask, you know what I mean?
+
+[24:20] It does mass things up. But if you're dealing with straight look, some people like it. I've done some starch-based ice creams that I hated, but they were very high starch-based ice creams when I was trying to make snappy ice creams. Uh I mean, I like potato-based ice creams. I've done you know, many, many versions of potato ice cream that have like a snap, but I haven't done starch, but a lot of people swear by it.
+
+[24:37] Mark Bittman swears by it, uh, or swore by it in his uh minimalist article he wrote a number of years ago. But the interesting thing is is that they're so stabilized that you can make them with quiescent freezing and they still don't get big ice crystals, right? Which means that your machine, if it takes a long time to make ice cream, might benefit from that sort of ice cream base because it's going to turn out smooth anyway because the starch matrix is preventing large crystals from forming. So uh might want to give that uh give that a trial. Uh, there's a recipe for it on ice cream nation.com.
+
+[25:08] You go check it out. What do you think, Stuzz? Good. Yeah, you want to take a commercial break? Sure.
+
+[25:11] Nice timing. Oh, yeah. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Krilly, we've created something exciting and new at ChefSteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love.
+
+[26:13] And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible. At ChefSteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, ChefSteps.com is entirely free to learn.
+
+[26:52] Free to learn, that's crazy. That's crazy. Were you talking about an ice cream machine maker before? Is that what you call them? Yes, I was talking to an ice cream machine.
+
+[27:00] And so why don't we just do all let's do all the ice cream in one in one chunk? All right. So uh by the way, uh Chris assumes if you're listening to this that you want to learn. Nobody listens to this to learn. I'm just kidding, I'm just messing.
+
+[27:11] Love Chris. Uh were we gonna schedule to see him sometime? Or do we know he sent him a torch? Yeah. Yeah, we'll see how that goes.
+
+[27:18] Okay. Uh how do you pronounce what do you guys think? I A I N. Ian, huh? Ian?
+
+[27:26] Let's go with that. Ian? Okay. Ian in uh Herefordshire, UK writes in about batch freezers, ice cream freezers. Uh hey Dave and Nastasha, do you have any experience uh with ice cream batch freezers?
+
+[27:37] So by the way, folks, uh batch freezer for ice cream, it what that means is what it says, it does it in uh per batch. So you make a batch, you load it in, and uh you churn the ice cream for a specific amount of time and you get the ice cream out. So liquid nitrogen in a KitchenAid freezer, that's batch freezing. It's not a batch freezer, but that's batch freezing. Uh using the hand-turned ice cream machines that with the rocks and the ice salt, batch freezing.
+
+[28:03] Uh the opposite of batch freezing is continuous freezers. Continuous freezers, constant amount of product is pumped in all the time, and it's frozen very, very short, short periods of time. So continuous freezers are how the all the big folks do it, you know, commercially, uh, and produces can produce with if you use good ingredients and you change, you know, the amount of uh air that's in ice cream is called the overrun. And when you're using a continuous freezer, you adjust the overrun independently of the in a batch freezer, the dashers, the spinning things are what uh does the aeration and provides what's called the the overrun, how much air is in it. And so 100% 100% overrun means that there is for every uh for every milliliter of ice cream base, there is a milliliter of air.
+
+[28:47] That's 100% overrun. It's done based on how much ice cream base you started with. Uh and you know, anything over a hundred is absurdly, you know, absurdly light, and anything, you know, the the the more premium ice creams, the funny thing about ice cream, I don't know why I'm talking about this. The funny thing about ice cream, ice cream is sold volumetrically, right? It's sold by the pint by the quart.
+
+[29:07] Uh and yet the cost to produce the ice cream is based upon the weight of ingredients that goes in and the quality of those ingredients. So, anyone that knows anything about ice cream, if you go to like the corner truck, the ice cream truck, and they give you the soft serve. A lot of people associate soft serve with being inexpensive or having a lot of air in it, and that's really a function of temperature and and mixture, ingredient mixture, not a function of overrun. So if you go to Carvel, which when I was a kid was like the awesome soft serve, but it's East Coast only thing. They don't have Carvel on the West Coast, right?
+
+[29:38] Yeah. So if you go to Carvel, which is like Northeast, like you know, soft serve ice cream, those suckers are dense. Their ice cream cone weighs quite a bit, right? Uh but if you go to, I'm not calling you out, Mr. Softy, but some of the people have bastardized your miser.
+
+[29:51] It's a New York City ice cream truck company. But uh you they're in those soft serve machines, there's an orifice, and the orifice pumps the uh mix into the uh chamber uh freezing chamber, and the uh the size of the orifice determines how much air is pumped into it at the time when it goes. So some disreputable uh ice cream truck uh uh people will put an orifice in there that generates like 120% overrun, so you're buying more air than ice cream, and you can those cones, they're man, that cone looks big, and then you pick it up and it's like a balloon floating out of your hand, it's so light. Anyway, whatever. Why did I get into that?
+
+[30:26] Anyway, so a continuous freezer uh is usually only done by larger scale people. I don't consider soft serve machines which do continuously add product. I don't really consider them to be continuous freezers because that they don't work on the same principle as a continuous freezer. There's only one continuous freezer that's available, i.e., not a batch freezer that I know of that's available uh to uh small run people, and it used to be made by Ross, R-O-S-S, uh, which was bought by I don't know how you pronounce it, because it's got the umlaut, but it's not pronounced stirting, which is how you pronounce it if you're German stiltening. It's uh stolting, I think is how they pronounce it.
+
+[31:02] They bought Ross freezers, but uh that's a frozen custard machine, and it in essence is a continuous freezer. That's it, okay. Back to batch freezers and back to Ian's question. Uh do you have any experience with ice cream batch freezers? Yes.
+
+[31:13] Uh that's a he, right? Ian. Yeah. Uh I'm about to start up a small ice cream company selling quality ices made from local fruits and other ingredients from a bike with a freezer attached. I forgot that I I didn't really even re how you gonna how are you gonna power that sucker?
+
+[31:28] How you how are you gonna get power to that? Pedal power. On the ice cream machine? Well, you're riding around town, put a little generator on the back wheel, good to go. Huh.
+
+[31:36] All right. Okay. I was putting local fruits and other ingredients from a bike with a freezer attached. No, I think what he's gonna do, I think he means not a batch freezer. I think he means a dipping freezer.
+
+[31:44] I don't think he means that there's gonna be the actual equipment. Right. Uh yeah, okay, I got you. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but that'll be awesome if you actually had the machine on a bike. First of all, your legs must be jacked.
+
+[31:57] What's the name of that uh Scottish bike dude with the giant chain rings who had that movie made about him? You know anyone who I'm talking about? Uh anyway, this guy in Scotland, uh I think he's Scotland, amazing biker. He was Danny McCaskill. Is that the one who won like the championship very late in life and switched a style of biking he did?
+
+[32:12] Dun biker guy. No, no, no, no. This is a guy he has a movie about him. He like won a championship much later in life, and he's known for having incredibly huge chain rings on his track bikes, so that he he's like his anyway, whatever. Chain ring is the thing that you're David Millar?
+
+[32:27] Man, I can't remember his name. Nah, nah. A lot of Scottish bikers out there. Well, you know, they're they're uh they're a tough people. Okay.
+
+[32:34] Uh and I'm looking for a robust machine that can produce a reasonable output of ice cream in one hour. I'm looking at about nine liters per hour. I saw the Emery Thompson C B 200. Uh, and the other side, the larger size one they have is the uh C B three fifty. And it looks perfect, but unfortunately is not available in the UK until next year.
+
+[32:53] Do you know any others around the same size and price? Uh the other option I was thinking about was a Paco Jet, but I'm concerned that it might not be robust enough. Uh they look great for restaurants that might want to do one portion at a time, but I would need to uh uh Pacotize, which by the way, Ian is a word I detest. I would just say spin, because Paco I don't want to let those guys coin their own word. They're already charging you an arm and leg for the freaking machine and they're Swiss.
+
+[33:17] Everyone knows how I feel about them. Stas likes the Swiss. I do. Yeah, so that half of us love the Swiss. I have no I actually have nothing against the real Swiss in the real life.
+
+[33:24] It's just I like to make fun of them, right? You know, uh watches and chocolate are great, you know. Okay. Uh but the uh uh uh my point is is that uh don't don't let them have that word. Just say spin.
+
+[33:33] That's what we say spin. Uh can uh oh okay. But I would need to spin the whole tub and do about eight or nine tubs in an hour. Can the Paco Jet handle that? Uh my budget is between three and four thousand great British pounds.
+
+[33:45] I would appreciate it if you could answer my question on the 21st or 28th of May, as I need to make my purchase very soon. P.S. loving the show, just discovered a couple months ago and catching up on the old episodes. Well, here we are on the 28th to answer your question. I called uh the president, Mr.
+
+[33:59] Thompson of uh Emery Thompson and asked him, uh and he's like, I forget whether you said third or fourth generation ice cream machine manufacturers, and I watched his YouTube video on the uh CB uh 200. And unfortunately for you, Ian, uh that machine is kind of in a size slash price category of its own. I haven't seen anything else that's kind of that low. So they retail in the US for about fifty uh five thousand like retail for five thousand three hundred and change. Um that means I'm assuming you can get it for a little bit less if you, you know, if you wheel and deal.
+
+[34:34] But I what I asked him when I called him, I was like, well, can uh you know, can this person just fly over from the UK, you know, using you know your awesome great British money and making us look like idiots here in the US with our current state of our monopoly money, and uh purchase one from you that you outfit for the UK and take back. And unfortunately, Mr. Thompson said, no, the problem is that US 220, uh US 220 is a different wiring schema from UK 220, because I guess you're using single phase 220 over there, and that they need to get an entirely different condenser unit for it. Uh it's made special. They can't just, you know, kind of you know, re-jigger or hack one of their units here for you, although he seemed to feel for your problem.
+
+[35:18] And also laughed when I said, Is there anything else in that price? He's like, No, because I think that's going to be a category killer when it comes out. Your next best bet is that the 350, his version of the 350 is available. That's a six-quart, I think, or eight-quart unit. Uh, and the other ones, I don't have any experience with their machines, but I do have a lot of experience with the Carpegani uh LB 100s.
+
+[35:39] The problem with the LB100s or Lab 100s, depending on which vintage you get, is that now you're talking a $10,000 machine, US. I don't know what they cost in in the UK. They're great machines. They do have some known problems, like if you get one of the older ones with the clear plastic front, they break, they always break, and then you need to fix them. Uh, the other option in the US, I don't know if they sell them in the UK, is Taylor.
+
+[36:02] Uh Taylor machines are sl are cheaper than the LB100s, but I've having used them, I was never a huge fan of the Taylor versus the LB 100s. If you can have a good used market, they do make a smaller batch machine. Carpegani makes a very small batch machine, like I think maybe two quarts, even smaller than the one you were looking at, that's a vertical batch freezer and sits on the countertop. That sucker, I've never used one, but supposedly has a very, very high quality. Uh, but there's not that much in that size range that you were talking about of just a couple of quartz that performs on a professional level.
+
+[36:36] So uh sorry about that. Now on the Paco Jet, I the here's a problem with the Paco Jet, right? Your question is, can I get away with using a Paco Jet? Uh and the answer is yes. Here's the bad news.
+
+[36:48] You cannot get away with using one Paco jet because what will happen? It's not that you need two to run at any one time. Sucker is going to break. Let me let me just be very clear about your Paco Jet. Your Paco Jet will break.
+
+[37:01] And now they will fix it, right? But at least in the US, they don't do the following awesome thing. Oh, your Paco Jet's broken and it costs an obscene amount of money and you can't buy parts from a normal person, so you have to send it to me to fix it. Oh, here's a loaner that you can use while your Paco Jet is broken because we know it's gonna break. In the US, that doesn't happen.
+
+[37:22] So they just say, guess what? Eat it, Jerko. And so you have to not have your Paco Jet for a long time. Or have to have a friend that has a Paco Jet. So if you're gonna do this, you can do it, but you have to run two Paco Jets at once.
+
+[37:34] Also, uh, so like Pure Food and Wine, Pure Food and Wine is that what it's called? Summer Mel and Gaius' place. She she has an ice cream shop that runs exclusively off of Paco Jet, and she has two, maybe three, and she's been running for years that way, and it works, but she always has one when the other one goes down. Here's the other thing. Paco Jet loves to charge you a lot of money for the stainless steel bay-marie that you freeze the ice.
+
+[37:56] So Paco Jet, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, people always say it's like a blender. It's not like a blender, it's like the world's greatest shaved ice machine. It slowly feeds a blade into uh into the top of the uh you freeze your base solid like a rock, and then it feeds the blade in slowly spinning and advancing at such a slow rate that the crystals that are shaved off are the same crystal size that you would get using a commercial ice cream machine. They're fantastic. Uh they're loud, but they're fantastic.
+
+[38:22] You definitely can get the throughput, you're gonna be running it all the time, but you need two. What uh what a couple people have done with Paco Jets, including Mills used to do it at Aquavit and Pure Food and uh Wine does it, is uh they freeze their base in quart containers, which are almost free. Although I've been told, when when I say I've been told, when I ask people in other countries, hey, I need some quart containers, they look at me like I'm an idiot. I don't think a lot of other people use quart containers, so find whatever the UK equivalent of a quart container is, or buy some from the good old US of A, and freeze your base in the quart containers. Quart containers are a little bit tapered, so you can pop the stuff out of the cork, and you have to get the levels right.
+
+[38:56] You pop the base out of the uh quart container, and then you jam it into your Paco Jet container and spin like that. The problem is if it's crooked, right? If it's crooked, then when your blade hits it, it'll hit one side of the I uh of the base only, and you can shatter your Paco Jet blades. Won't kill the Paco Jet, but you'll shatter the blades. Blades are like $150.
+
+[39:16] However, in the long run, you are gonna save money by doing quart containers because you need a lot of them to do the kind of thing you're doing, and just buy yourself an extra blade. Do not attempt to run an ice cream business with the uh Neemox or Ninox, whatever it is, uh Frixair unit uh that was made sold as a competitive Paco Jet. It will not, it works fine for the tiny little cups that it that it does, but it will not work for what you want. What do you think, S good? Good job.
+
+[39:44] Did I do good coach? Okay. Uh all right. Should we take one more break and come back or should we power through? Power?
+
+[39:51] Yeah, power. Power. Okay. Uh got a question in this one, actually is from Lucas, right? If I can find it.
+
+[39:59] Uh where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Oh my goodness. I'll say in the meantime, if you want this episode named after you, you can still become a member.
+
+[40:10] A few minutes left. Yeah, is that true? That's true. It's still May. All right.
+
+[40:13] Okay. Uh well, I'll take a different question while I'm looking for Lucas's question. Uh John Stewart, not John Stewart from the Daily Show, a different John Stewart, which is his sign offline now, says, hello to the hammer, Jack, Joe, and Dave. My question is not very high-tech, but is food related. Uh, we host an outdoor family movie night, and I provide popcorn.
+
+[40:32] I've been making a bunch of batches in a cast-iron Dutch oven on the stovetop, which takes a lot of time I'd rather spend elsewhere. This past weekend I had the horror of actually running out of popcorn. Oh my oh my god. So clearly I need to step things up. It's taking too much time.
+
+[40:49] So I looked at popcorn machines, which turn out to be expensive. You are correct. So the question is if you wanted to make a large amount of popcorn, how would you do it? Or should I be looking at bar restaurant auctions for a used popcorn machine? Thanks, and keep up the good work, a different John Stewart.
+
+[41:04] Okay. So yeah, you're a little bit okay. So here's what I'm assuming. One, you detest air popped popcorn because it doesn't taste good. Is that right?
+
+[41:13] Anyone else with me on this? AirPod popcorn styles. Do you like airpod popcorn? No. Eddie, do you like airpod?
+
+[41:18] I'm not a big popcorn fan in general. In general? Too much effort, not enough reward. Yeah. It's all in your teeth.
+
+[41:22] You're 20 minutes later, you're still digging it out. Well, you know, a lot of that has to do, I think, with like the popcorn varieties that they're that they're making. I think they make ones that like so you get your mushroom and you got your butterfly. So your butterfly ones, your typical movie popcorn ones, and I think they have like a bigger surface area for capturing things. You're gonna like coat it with butter flavor.
+
+[41:38] But your mushroom types are better for ones that are going to be uh further manipulated, like cracker jack style or things like that, which is why you get it. Anyways, uh and certain uh varieties are gonna have more and less uh uh of the skin that's left on them, they're gonna get stuck in your teeth because that's unpreasent, uh unpleasant rather, and of course, better quality popcorns. You know what they call popcorn kernels that haven't popped? No. Widows.
+
+[41:58] Uh oh, that's sad. So now you're never gonna look at the bottom of the video, oh poor widows. No. So uh, anyways, yes, the manufacturer that makes the real ones is Creters. And Creters makes popcorn machines all the way from the minuscule to the gigundous continuous popcorn makers that can do like a ton an hour and more.
+
+[42:14] They're awesome. Uh amazing, but they are expensive. You're looking at probably for a small one, the kind that's like on the cart, right? Like a thousand bucks. Here's the other problem.
+
+[42:31] I think they're about a thousand bucks. The other problem is is that they take up a lot of space. Now, maybe you have a lot of space, in which case I would definitely just troll auctions for one that looks kind of beat because they're kind of bulletproof. I mean, they work for a long time, right? But uh, you know, they they are going to uh they they're gonna require a lot of cleaning if you get a crappy one at an auction, but that is the way to go.
+
+[42:53] Uh my mom actually bought me so the way I used to make the make it was uh with uh what's called a whirly pop. And it's it's still a pain, a huge pain in the butt. So whirly pop is the aluminum pan with the two flap doodle lids on top and the hand crank that you crank. So it makes fantastic popcorn a lot easier than your uh than your Dutch oven technique with the shaking and the shaking plus the shaking of the Dutch oven. Uh the Whirly Pop, the main disadvantage of the Whirly Pop is you still have to sit there and turn it while it while it's doing it.
+
+[43:24] Now, I also use the Whirly Pop for uh roasting coffee because I never got one of the newer generations of home coffee roasters. Uh and the Whirly Pop I like the Whirly Pop because it's you know it's less of an air pop, uh an air roasted coffee for like Sivits Roaster style coffee flavor, and more of like a probot style or like drum roast coffee flavor. So I like it. Uh and it like I say, it also makes fantastic popcorn. But here's a modification I was gonna do if you're handy.
+
+[43:49] What I was gonna do was uh put a motor, like cut the end of the thing off and bolt uh a small 110 motor, and then with a counterweight on the other side of the pot so it doesn't tilt, and then uh just run the whirly pop off of a motor. Now, you could have that whole sucker done whirly pop plus motor. You could have that whole sucker done for I want to say 50 bucks, 60 bucks, plus your time, right? And that's going to make fantastic popcorn. Plus, you can be proud of the fact that you've hacked, you know, you've done a DYI solution on this.
+
+[44:24] Downside is you're still going to have to listen for uh when the popping stops, or you're gonna scorch your popcorn. Now, the whirly pop does a fairly good job of not scorching as long as you pay attention to it, and then you could just bang out batch after batch, and you could be doing other things while it's popping, right? Uh second alternative that works similar to a whirly pop, but it's a lot cheaper. I think it's also around a hundred bucks. My mom bought me some.
+
+[44:49] I don't even I forgot to look at the thing on the way out. I don't know if it's wearing or what, but who someone makes a home, maybe Jack or you can find it, they make like a little red like home version of a movie popcorn popper that works with with the with a little handle on the side that does the dumping, and it works on the same principle as a movie style popcorn popper in that there's a little basket that holds the corn, you put the oil in, it starts popping as it pops, it pops out of that basket and into a holding container, and you can make batch after batch, and I've used it at kids' birthday parties, and it works fantastically. You still have to listen for the popcorn to stop so that you don't burn the stuff at the bottom. But the good news about this version is is if you don't pay attention and you let it keep going past the time and it actually burns the kernels, it's only burning those poor sorry widows that are left inside of the thing. It's not burning the actual popcorn that's popped out and put into the uh into the basket.
+
+[45:44] Now, it also keeps the popcorn fairly warm because it's inside of the tray. The down other downside of that machine is because it's covered with glass all the way around and it's slightly smaller than the ones that you would use uh in uh in a real movie theater, is that if you don't open the door pretty quick after it's done, it has a tendency to steam the popcorn that's on the inside. Steaming popcorn is a no-no. So what you want to do is drill holes in the in the in the side of that thing to allow the ski steam to escape, but not so much that the popcorn can fly out when it comes out. What do you think, Stuff?
+
+[46:14] Good job. Good. I like that. Hacking equipment here. Yeah, we're hacking.
+
+[46:18] And remember, if you hack it, you're avoiding the warranty and you may kill yourself, and I don't want to hear about it because it's not my fault. Uh maybe it's my fault. What do you think? Okay. Uh this is from Lucas.
+
+[46:29] Lucas says, uh, hey, uh Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. Uh I went to the new Fulton fish market on Monday with a couple of friends with the intention of sharing the fish. This is such a great place, but no two words about it. It is a wholesale market. Hence, I have a lot of fish.
+
+[46:44] I made some gravel locks with part of the salmon. My first question is simple. How long can I keep it in the fridge? Presumably you're not talking about the salmon itself, you're talking about the graveled locks when you're done, right? Uh I love the market, and it's quite a trip from the village uh at unhuman hours because remember, the market is uh really running uh when you know you should be asleep, uh, unless you're a bartender.
+
+[47:04] Uh but I am willing to make it every once in a while, the trip that is. Any other ideas how to use this market for a small household? Now listen, uh Lucas, uh most people oh, he also says, sorry about the bike ticket. My deepest sympathies for uh fragile and delicate Nastasha for having to keep up with you a lot. Oh brutal.
+
+[47:21] Brutal. Sincerest regards, Lucas. Oh man. Damn. Okay, so here's the thing.
+
+[47:27] If you live in the village, Lucas, you one of your main problems is going to be that you have no space unless you are fantastically wealthy. And if you are fantastically wealthy, then you can visit the market and then buy your fish locally at a retail price. So I'm assuming that you are not fantastically wealthy. Uh so I am therefore assuming that your village apartment is small, which means you also don't have a large freezer. If you had a vacuum machine and a freezer, there are some kinds of fish that do quite well if you put a hard vac on it uh for storage to freeze if you have a good freezer and a good vacuum machine.
+
+[48:02] You don't want to cook it uh in the vacuum bag like that under under a hard vacuum because uh the quality is degraded. But storage and freezing under hard vacuum is is fine. Um, I would say things like this are good for three things parties, parties, and more parties. When you're gonna have a big party, like let's say you have that friend, I don't know how old you are. Let's say you have that friend and they're having the engagement party, right?
+
+[48:27] And you want to blow 'em out, then go pick up a couple of salmon there, do like an awesome, like, you know, I used to that that was my standard thing. I would just poach up a bunch of salmons and like put them out with a bunch of different toppings and stuff. You know, I yeah, I think I did a good job. I think I did, you know, because you know this is what I do for a living. But you know, like that, and then like that's very uh very easy.
+
+[48:47] Or anything like that where you you know you're gonna be serving a lot of people, and it allows you to do a higher ticket item than you would if you were buying retail and to get high quality because you know you're getting it from the source. Problem is, is you never know quite what you're gonna get until you get to the wholesale market. So it's a little bit dicey for doing parties, but that's always what I when I I always use wholesale when I know that I have a wholesale quantity of people I'm gonna be feeding. Uh otherwise, it's all about uh storage or making things that are gonna last a long time. Like if you like Pa Pauline, who uh hopefully I'm gonna get to her question uh uh from last week, you know, she does she catches a uh a boatload of well, not a boatload because she's using a net whatever anyway, a lot of salmon, and she's making jerky and drying it, uh then you know that's another opportunity if you want to go there and you're gonna do products that are gonna take a long time.
+
+[49:33] Let's say you were gonna buy a bunch of row and make your own batarga. Well, do not buy that wholesale. Go to I mean, sorry, uh retail, go get that stuff wholesale. Anytime you're gonna mix something's gonna keep a long time. But I can't think of any other, like I can't think of any other like normal day-to-day stuff.
+
+[49:48] I think I'd rather buy my stuff, especially if you're buying stuff that's sushi grade because it's already been frozen once, you don't want to freeze it again. Uh so anyway, hopefully that's helpful. Now, back on the how to how long you can keep. I mean, fresh salmon actually keeps quite a long time. The problem is you don't know how long it's already been kept before you get it.
+
+[50:07] Uh so on fresh salmon, if you're gonna have a problem keeping it and you're worried about it, then I would vac it down and freeze it right away because uh the earlier you freeze a fresh product in its lifetime, the higher the quality is maintained over time. Because you don't get that quality back. Like if you vac down a piece of salmon, even vacing it if you're gonna keep it refrigeration uh in refrigeration alone, is gonna keep your quality a lot longer than if you just you know keep it in in the fridge. But quality on something like fresh salmon, right, is very, very influenced by how you keep it in the fridge. So you want to keep your fruit your fish like a professional would keep it.
+
+[50:42] And what that means is it like a skin side down resting on a bed of uh shaved ice in something that drains the shaved ice into a container underneath it, and then uh lightly light, like I don't actually cut if you have a place that doesn't have a lot of other smells and you're not worried about it, you can almost not cover it all, put a piece of paper that doesn't touch it, you know, like over the top. Uh but you know, a lot of how fish keeps depends on how much the temperature cycles and how much air is blowing over it. If you have a lot of air blowing over it, the surface dries out too much, and you can get off flavors from other things and you can transfer flavors. But if you have it really tightly wrapped over or things touching the the actual fish, then you can get slimy, nasty parts where the stuff touches. So you don't want anything touching it.
+
+[51:26] Uh you can wrap plastic wrap if you have to over it uh but not touching the fish on a bed of ice and then check the ice when the ice melts, put a fresh bed of ice down. Remember, skin side down and not stacking a bunch of them on top, and your fish will actually keep fairly well that way. But very few people here here's why salmon goes or fish goes so bad so quickly in your fridge is people are like you buy it from a fishmonger, they throw it into a freaking plastic bag like it's like like it's like dirty socks, and then you take it home in this dirty sock bag, and then you throw it in the fridge, and then some idiot comes and throws a bag of grapefruits on top of it, and then it's horrible. Horrible. Anyway, once you make Gravelox out of it, it's actually going to keep a lot longer.
+
+[52:04] I tried to find an actual uh piece of information about how long Gravelox would keep. Gravelox, by the way, is salmon typically salt, uh sugar, salt, and dill uh cured with or without weights. You cure it for a couple of days. Uh that it it should it does prevent some bacteria from growing, but it does not prevent things like listeria from growing, and there's other spoilage bacteria. I've seen people say you get an extra actu extra two, three days out of it from the curing after it's cured.
+
+[52:30] And I've seen people say it lasts a couple of weeks in there. I haven't found any hard data looking to see how long it lasts in the uh in the fridge. But uh from what I can see, the main thing from a pathology standpoint, from a from a pathogen standpoint, rather, it would be listeria, because listeria will continue to grow on it. But if you actually keep it under proper refrigeration, listeria should take a long time to grow. The other problems are going to be more spoilage and and less safety problems.
+
+[52:58] Uh, but I could not find any specific things, and nobody wants to come out and say, you can keep it for two weeks in the fridge, and it won't be a problem, because then if you get sick, you're going to go back to them and say, Man, you said I could keep it for two weeks in the fridge. And a lot depends on the initial bacterial loading of the fridge. If you were uh of the salmon, if you're buying really good salmon, whole fish, the whole fish salmon at wholesale market, filleting it yourself. You could see the gills, you could see the eyes, you you see the skin, the quality of it. You know, you'll probably get a good long time uh out of it, but I like those other fools hesitate to give you an exact amount of time.
+
+[53:33] Uh and speaking of exact amount of time, I have shafted Pauline again on talking about uh uh the bacterial safety of her uh smoked salmon in Alaska. And next time, Pauline, what I promise to address this very first uh on the show. Here we go, ready for next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[54:06] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[54:29] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy. Sign up now at ChefSteps.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Ron, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 or 1, depending. On the Heritage Radio Network, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, also Joe and Jack in the engineering booth, and Eddie, who's soon to be like one of the regulars in the engineering booth. And once again we have on the show our good buddy Ariel from UC Davis, RGC Mass Spec Expert. How are you doing, Ariel? Pretty good.
+
+[0:57] Thanks. How are you doing? Good, good. Uh oh, by the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:03] Stas, how are you doing? I'm good, thank you. Yeah? Anything interesting to report? Nope.
+
+[1:07] Really? Nothing? No. I saw you pretty late last night. Yeah, but I mean, uh, other people did not see us.
+
+[1:13] Did we do anything? I can't remember. I don't think we did anything. We went to edible little schoolyard. We went to the edible schoolyard, thank you.
+
+[1:18] Well, it was a thank you for an event that we didn't actually go to, but where we're auctioned off as doing some sort of the cocktail party at someone's house, true? Right. Like 30 people or something. We're gonna do whatever, liquid nitrogen, all sorts of crazy things. Yes.
+
+[1:30] Nice, nice. And uh we're uh I'm going to inspect our puffing gun, the museum's puffing gun today after the program. I'm gonna see if I can okay, so I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag. It's gonna it's gonna tick off uh Peter, our uh museum president or whatever and the heck director, whatever the hell his title is. But look, we're looking to get this puffing gun.
+
+[1:46] Uh we're looking to get this puffing gun ready for end of summer. And so uh what we're gonna do is uh we're probably gonna kickstart this thing to try and get some money in so that we can get this stuff to build it out, right? Which means that in the next couple of weeks I have to make it run, Stas. I have to go there and make it run. And uh report back.
+
+[2:05] And I know that we said on the air before that I was gonna do a Kickstarter for the torch. And we still are for reasons no bad reasons really, no bad reasons. It's because we're also working on another product at the same time that we haven't revealed yet. And we have a little bit of question of which one we want to launch first. So we're holding off for a little while on the Sears all kickstart, but it's not that we it's not that we've missed our deadline.
+
+[2:27] No. It's we're ready actually to do it. It's just a question of strategy in the Booker and Dax team as to what's gonna go up first, right, Stas? Is that pretty much true? All right.
+
+[2:38] So uh let me go right into the uh qu oh by the way how you guys doing over there in the engineering booth. Yeah, I was wondering. Uh we're doing well. Yeah? Nice.
+
+[2:45] All right. My sister works for edible schoolyard. Maybe you saw her. Oh yeah? What's her name?
+
+[2:49] Cecilia? Hmm, do we see her? I don't no. No. We might have.
+
+[2:53] Maybe she's not that important. I don't know. Whoa! We did record Alice Waters um, what is it, two weeks ago? We're doing an evolutionaries recording with her, so her kind of whole life story.
+
+[3:05] Uh I just got finished editing that. So how was that? How was she? Very good, very interesting. Uh you know, she she uh really doesn't want that edible schoolyard idea to be proprietary at all.
+
+[3:15] She wants as many people to take it as can. So anyone out there, if you want to go eat a schoolyard, steal that crap. Because she doesn't care. Exactly. Yeah.
+
+[3:23] Ryan? All right. So uh Pauline from Alaska. I'm finally gonna get to your question because I'm not as bad a person as people uh make me out to be. Uh and maybe Ariel, if you uh how good how uh how good are you on your uh food safety stuff?
+
+[3:35] You still up on that? Marginally? I know a little bit. I mean you had to study that crap when you were doing stuff, right? Uh here and there, maybe.
+
+[3:42] Yeah, a little touch of a little touch of food safety. Tiny bit. Uh yeah, Ariel's kind of like me, I guess. Is it as long as it tastes good, who cares whether you die? We do have a caller if you want to grab that first.
+
+[3:52] All right, I will I will take the caller first, but Pauline, you're up first. All right. Caller, you're on the air. Howdy, Dave. How are you doing?
+
+[4:01] Hi. Uh first. Hey, first of all, thanks for answering my uh uh mocha question a couple weeks back. Have a quick question about juicing and a Vitamix. Vitamix we love, thanks to you, by the way.
+
+[4:15] Oh, nice. Well, I love that the Vitamix good good good blending product. Yes. Well, we've been making smoothies, soups, you know, all bunch of good stuff. And my question is when it comes to doing more of a juice product without having to get a you know uh nut milk bag and squeeze it and all that sort of messiness.
+
+[4:36] What would you recommend for straining? Hmm. So what kind of juices are you looking to do? I don't know. We've done like, you know, shard from the garden with greens and apple and ginger, you know, typical you know, overpriced juices from the juice bar at home.
+
+[4:52] Right, right. I mean that so the problem I mean the main problem if you're doing things like ginger, it's not such a problem because uh there's not I mean there are there's there are things in ginger, but uh you're usually not using enough ginger to have it um completely uh you know, fill your juice with with with uh with a bunch of blended pectin. It's the b it's the blended pectin in things that are gonna make things very, very difficult for you to um for you to strain out. Uh because they just yeah, they increase the they increase the thickness of it to an extent where it just it just doesn't want to strain very very much. Um now what I will say is that if you do get one of the of the I like the word nut milk bag that's my new favorite word nut milk bag but um uh I try not to go to a dirty place with that right right yeah you can try but it's gonna be difficult not to get to that place.
+
+[5:45] Now the the uh if you get a uh any one of these uh straining bags or super bags that let you tie them off such that no product can get out of it one really fast way to get uh liquids out like that uh through straining is to put them into a bag like that tie them off throw them in a salad spinner and just start spitting them out and that little bit of extra centrifugal force in the uh on the bag speeds your drainage by you know by I wouldn't say an order of magnitude but probably like a factor of five something on that range and it's also going to increase your yield. So then what you do is you throw the bag in there you give her you give her a couple spins with the thing you spin and then you pull it out then you you grab the bag and you like massage the contents around to free up the pores and you spin it another couple of times. And it's a technique I don't think I ever put it on the blog but it's a technique I developed to help people when they're doing quick agar clarification because most people when they're doing quick agar clarification they squeeze the uh they squeeze the bag too hard and they extrude agar through the bag and they also have a difficult time getting their yield up and so that was something I developed uh to help with that. Uh second thing you know if you have if you're not gonna consume the juice right away is you might want to go to modernistpantry.com buy a little bit of uh pectinx uh uh ultra spl enzyme and blend that in with the product and that, you know, over if you blend it till it's warm, then you know, it's almost good to go right away. But uh, you know, if you let it wait a little while, it really helps thin out your product and makes it uh a lot easier to just get more product through, for instance, a regular chinois.
+
+[7:14] Um the other thing you can do, uh see what is another thing you could do. I mean the i i if if you're having trouble if if if you're having trouble like a a dual a dual part strainer uh makes things a lot faster. So if you're going through first something coarse to pick up anything that's left over now that there's a lot of coarse stuff after the vita prep, and then going through your finer uh straining, like a for instance a bag or something like that, uh then you're gonna get a much faster drain through on uh on the secondary uh strain through if you've gotten some of the bigger stuff out uh right away because it prevents kind of uh instant clogging. You're still gonna get fines clogging, which is like the small things are gonna clog up all the pores very quickly. But again, just like a spoon that you're scraping along the edge of your strainer on the inside to re-clear the pores as you're going is gonna make it drain faster.
+
+[7:59] And of course the good old fashioned hitting the side of the strainer with your uh with your fist as it's going to kind of pop the stuff off the pores and help it drain faster. Is it is any of this helpful or no? Yeah, so basically, I mean there's not you're basically saying a strainer and a nut milk bag. There's not there's not like a china a really super fine china cap or something like that type of thing. Yeah, I mean so like you know, I th there's two basic ones we use that I call them both kind of chinois or china cap.
+
+[8:28] One is a piece of sheet metal with holes drilled in it, right? That's the coarse one. And the fine one is literally a piece of cloth, like a a piece of uh of a wire cloth. And it's very can be very, very fine wire cloth. And those things are great.
+
+[8:43] So like with those, you put it in and initially you you pour your product in there and you hit it with the you you hold the handle and you hit it with you hit the right by the handle with your with your fist uh and it and it can rattle through or you just take a uh ladle or a spoon and constantly scrape the sides of the cloth to re f uh you know re-free up the pores. Okay. Yeah. And if you they can be pricey, but or another alternative is uh go through an old school Tammy, which is a kind of a wide mouth thing, and then you just take a pastry scraper and scrape back and forth across the Tammy, and you can get very, very fine tamis. You can actually buy them industrially as uh as uh bolting sieves or or as uh uh you know mesh mesh grades.
+
+[9:23] You can pick what mesh grade you get because people use it to sort out particles like in the real life. Uh and you scrape your pastry scraper across it and you can get uh a lot of uh you know, a lot of product through that way, but I would recommend a chinois if you can get it because uh it kind of funnels the liquid down into a much smaller area, easier to catch into a pyrex or uh or a pitcher or whatever. And the the sort of smashing motion is a little easier than the scraping you'd get with uh with a to me. Yeah, I mean, yes, that's true. I like this.
+
+[9:49] The smashing motion I like, but you know, you just you'll get a feel for it. The uh issue when you're smashing it, a lot of chefs I know they like to take the spoon and jam it instead of the smashing. The one issue when you're smashing, you'll get like like a bloop that'll fly up and blot back down into your into your chinois. Just make sure you don't shoot the bloop into the stuff that you've already strained. That's depressing.
+
+[10:07] Right. Right, and I can use the damper as well for that. Got it. Thank you guys. They're really helpful.
+
+[10:12] Hey, no problem, let's know how it works. Okay, cheers. Hi, bye. Um okay, so back to Pauline's question. So for those of you that do not remember, I will read uh uh what she is.
+
+[10:22] Okay. Uh I live, this is Pauline, not me. I do not live in the interior of Alaska. I live here in New York. Okay.
+
+[10:29] Uh I live in the interior of Alaska and make annual pilgrimage to dip net the yearly quota of various salmon species, which sounds awesome. Like it's like a good I meat. Well, and then she goes on to say. This is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. That and obviously the giant cabbage.
+
+[10:42] Are we ever going to get that giant cabbage, thus? I don't think he's really interested in that. So what happened? Like, so uh I'm sorry, Pauline, I'm gonna digress again. But you're on this dog, we're talking about this right now.
+
+[10:51] But like Steve Hubachek, the world's largest cabbage grower, right, in Alaska. Because for those of you that don't remember, cabbage basically respond uh to number of hours of daylight, and they're gonna keep growing as long as the number of hours of daylight are high enough and it's not freezing, those cabbage are gonna keep growing, right? So they get cabbages that are you know well, well over a hundred pounds. What were they weighing? Do you remember?
+
+[11:12] It was a lot. It was well over a hundred pounds, though, right? And so we were gonna we were gonna you know buy you know, at they have a state fair in uh in Alaska, I forget what town it's in, but uh they have an Alaska State Fair, and they have a giant vegetables competition, but they also have a you know a giant uh like like the the kind of the queen or king, depending on what you look at. Nastasha likes to think of vegetables as men, and I like to think of vegetables as women's. You think of everything as women's that's not true, not you.
+
+[11:40] Boom! Boom! Anyway, so uh the uh so the cabbage is kind of the queen of the uh uh the bell of the ball, let's say. And so because it's like the most famous one, and we wanted to get one of Steve Ubachek's, he's a dentist, by the way, right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[11:54] We wanted to get one of his prize uh cabbages after the fair and bring it here and then make like the like the world's largest single head uh uh serving of coleslaw with like a chainsaw and a wood chipper. But somehow like when push actually came to shipping, he like Steve was like, man, I don't know. I'm not really that nice. Not that not that that means that someday you and I stars are gonna have to take an airplane to Alaska. Sound a seaplane to Alaska.
+
+[12:21] Oh my god, like my dad used to fly seaplanes. That's rad. Yeah. Uh but uh, you know what the most you know what the most dangerous kind of seaplane is? It's the amphibious ones with the wheels that come out of the pontoons.
+
+[12:31] Because it like all the pilots say, it's not a question of if you're eventually going to land and forget to pull the landing gear up and land with the landing gear down in water, which instantly flips the plane, by the way. Like you land with the landing gear on an amphibian sucker in the water. But more of a question of when is that going to happen? Kind of like crashing a motorcycle. Jesus.
+
+[12:49] Yeah. Anyway. I don't think it kills you, but it's just it's embarrassing in the planes ruined. Okay. Uh so back to uh back to back to Pauline.
+
+[12:56] Okay. Um the fishing is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. I fillet some, cut some into stakes for near immediate consumption, and leave a few holes for extravagant harvest parties. I would like to go to those extravagant harvest parties. Uh what?
+
+[13:09] As would I? Yeah, nice. Uh and smoke dry the rest. Not like that palette pasty shave stuff they sell in our store in the store. Our smoked salmon should be almost jerky like and full of a smoky, slightly salty, slightly sweet flavor.
+
+[13:22] I love smoked salmon and want to do it better, learn more, etc. Thus, I'd like to hear what you might suggest, including ways you'd like to use this fish candy. And like I I believe I mentioned this even when I didn't answer your question. There is a huge difference between the the stuff that they sell in the store and properly really beautiful, awesome um, you know, Nova style uh smoked uh uh cured uh salmon and and locks. Uh I mean the stuff that you can get in a supermarket is indeed pallid and pasty.
+
+[13:53] But you know, the hand slice stuff is freaking awesome. But it's not what you're it's not what you're looking for. And I don't even know like I like I would think that uh most of the stuff that they make, the really high quality stuff, if it's since it apparently that's not the style that's appreciated by the actual Alaska natives, they're probably getting something that was uh shipped back from uh the lower 48 up to Alaska and then served to them, and that would be an insult. It would be an insult to get for her to get this crappy salmon like cured in the lower 48 in a substandard way, pre-sliced with some sort of preservative vacuum packed and shipped up to her, right? Like it'd be like a smack in the face.
+
+[14:27] Well, is cold smoked or hot smoked more of the paper in Alaskan style. Well, that's interesting. So traditionally, right? Uh traditionally, I think if you were gonna smoke, you'd be smoking in a relatively large area, like a shed or something, with a relatively small fire, which would mean cold smoking. Right?
+
+[14:44] But that's that's kind of that's kind of that's kind of the thing. So let's let's talk about the kind of trials and tribulations of of uh of curing and smoking fish. By the way, uh, you know, that the back in the day when people cured fish because uh, you know, they were gonna die otherwise, there was a because they needed the protein and whatnot. There are various different things have uh occurred and some have stayed around because they're more or less safe. But not all traditional smoking curing techniques can actually are not a guarantee of safety, let's put it that way.
+
+[15:12] So the first um, you know, the the first thing is is uh you're probably not doing uh traditional like certain areas where they cured fish, uh they didn't have a lot of salt lying around because uh it took a lot of energy to produce salt, especially in uh colder climates or climates without a lot of sun where you didn't get a lot of drying effect, or places where there's high humidity, they didn't necessarily have a large supply of salt. So they would kind of do low salt things with just wind drying and um and also uh perhaps smoke. Presumably you don't have that problem, and you're doing what has become the more traditional uh smoking technique. It might have been all along in Alaska for all I know, which is you're gonna salt it for a while, uh, or salt and sugar it for a while to get the salt content up. The that's going to A, that's gonna be good for flavor up to a certain point, at which point it becomes too salty.
+
+[16:02] And especially if you're doing the jerky candy-style stuff, there's probably a good bit of sugar in there, which probably goes similar to gravadlocks cures, which can be anywhere from like uh two to one sugar salt to one to one, depending on how you're how you're looking at it, right? So you cure it to get a certain amount of salt into the meat. You're then gonna hang it wet for a little while to let the salt level equilibrate. It's called equalization, right, so that it actually seeps into the whole thing. That initial salt load is and hopefully do this part under refrigeration so listeria is not growing too much because the salt levels involved aren't necessarily, and in fact, not only aren't necessarily, but shown to not uh prevent the growth of listeria, uh you know, unless you super salt it, but then it's gonna be unpalatable for straight eating.
+
+[16:44] So equilibrate at fridge temperature, and then you're gonna hang them up to dry with uh smoke, right? So that's that's the technique we're talking about. Uh and so uh I went around and and uh looked about it. And and by the way, you know, just look up on online and that with the relative uh actual brine strengths. The problem with most recipes is they just give a brine strength, which isn't really a hundred percent useful because it's gonna depend upon the ratio of brine to fish and the soaking times and all that.
+
+[17:14] Other people actually just put salt on it. Uh the so I'm not gonna try and get into this. I would just I would just go to um any one of the uh any university, any state university, for instance, uh smoking fish at home from the University of Alaska, Fairbanks has like a website on this, and follow one of their recipes for salt levels. Um anyway, so uh the first thing you gotta get rid of in uh salmon is uh parasites, right? So uh like different kinds of uh worms that are growing in them, some of which can uh be zoonotic, i.e.
+
+[17:44] they can jump from salmon and infest you. Awesome, right? Uh I think the one I I read the study on was Diphylo Bothriasis associated with eating raw Pacific salmon. Now, here's the bad news salting doesn't necessarily kill the larva. Uh cold smoking does not necessarily kill the larva.
+
+[18:08] Hot smoking kills the larva, and freezing kills the larva. Now, there are uh some websites uh that have said, for instance, smoking fish at home from the University of Alaska Fairbanks says uh these parasites, when you're talking about any sort of like uh wormy parasite, can be destroyed by freezing the raw product at a temperature of zero degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks or longer before salting and smoking. When freezing the product at a home freezer, it may take several days to reach zero Fahrenheit throughout the entire fish. Now, I thought it was very interesting that they wrote before that you had to freeze it before you salted and smoked it. Uh I read on the USDA where they didn't seem to care whether you froze it before or after.
+
+[18:46] Uh if if you can uh and you feel comfortable doing it, I highly recommend freezing it afterwards, and here's why. The more water that's present in uh in the food, right, when you're going to freeze it, um, the uh more crystal growth you're gonna get and the more texture damage you're gonna get. And I would think it would alter the appearance and you get a higher drip loss, which isn't necessarily a good way to get rid of moisture in this in the fillets uh before they're smoked and dried out. Do you see any reason why you can't freeze it afterwards, Ariel? I don't think so.
+
+[19:20] I mean, unless there's some like unfrozen brine that the uh parasites could live in, but that doesn't sound likely to me. It's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. But the USDA seems to think you can freeze it before or after. Yeah, well they mean that's in it's interesting. I hadn't thought about that because you're increasing the brine concentration.
+
+[19:39] Anytime you have like an ion dissolved right but if you're increasing the brine concentration that much you would think that that would kill that's true. I mean I I don't know. I it would seem to me that you could uh that you could do it. Now then the question is whether you're going to uh s hot smoke it or you're gonna cold smoke it. I would read just for your own edification fish smoking procedures for forced convection smoke houses which is written in uh in uh 2001 by uh Kenneth S.
+
+[20:06] Hilderbrand uh junior seafood processing specialist at Oregon State University. And they go through a lot of the parameters of um smoking. Now is that a book or a paper? Paper online. You can read it online.
+
+[20:17] Uh and I would also go to the FDA uh FDA's fish and fishery products hazards and control guidance uh specifically uh processing parameters needed to control pathogens in cold smoked fish for cold smoked uh situations and all like these are both online uh and you know there's a there's a uh you know there's a lot a lot of a lot of of data so there's three things that you're there's there's three main things that you're that you're looking at uh the thing that people are most worried about uh in um cold smoking I mean some if you're gonna store something okay okay let's go so if you're hot smoking then uh you can be in an anaerobic environment back up back up when you're we we already talked about parasites, right? The smoking, unless you hot smoke to to kill it, is not gonna kill uh the parasites, right? Another problem with um another problem with uh microbo microbes is listerio monocytogenies. Listeria can grow in cold environments, is not killed by cold smoking, is not killed by salting, right? Uh so what you want to do is you either want to have to not worry about listeria, which means if you are actually cold smoking, you'd think that cold smoking would would increase the listeria by a lot, but actually the range of cold smoking isn't fridge temperature, the it's more like room temperature up to 80, 90 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[21:43] In that range, you will preferentially grow lactic acid bacteria, and the lactic acid bacteria are um are good competitive inhibitors of listerio monocytogenies. If you heat high enough to hot smoke it, you're killing the listeria, wiping it out. The dangerous part in smoking is if you fluctuate in temperatures that kill and prevent lactic acid bacteria from growing, but don't kill listeria. So in that weird range of like 102, 103, in that kind of like that range, you have a possibility of wiping out your lactic culture, depending on the temperature. I have to go look up the specific numbers, but not wiping out uh listeria.
+
+[22:19] So you want to make sure that your zone is either hot enough to kill listeria or cold enough to not inhibit your lactic acid bacteria. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Okay. So then the uh other thing you want to worry about is you don't want to culture anaerobic bacteria while you're doing this.
+
+[22:35] In very closely confined uh situations, you are uh producing relatively anaerobic environments. However, in cold smoking, the only way to really do cold smoking is to introduce a lot of air along with the combusting products, and so it's almost always an aerobic process and almost always, therefore, will not be growing uh uh Closturidium, uh any kind of like Closturidium in there, right? So though and this is all that don't take my word for it. Please do not take my word for it. Go read uh the USDA and the FDA's website on it and you know some of the other safety sites out there.
+
+[23:09] But those are the main uh those are the main issues. Now, if you're actually curing down to a jerky situation, then you're probably getting a low enough water activity that it's not really uh it's not going to be uh too much of an issue. And if you are worried about uh food safety on this kind of stuff, a little bit, and they don't add it much commercially, but a little bit of uh pink salt, prague salt, uh nitrites uh on the fish will also uh prevent any sort of uh clostridium thing from from from growing. And if you make sure you dry out the uh the outside not so fast that it's like totally dry and the inside's still wet. Right.
+
+[23:41] So most of us when we smoke are taught to uh produce a pellicle on the outside, which is a dry thing on the outside. However, from a food safety standpoint, you're much better having the outside still be at least tacky when you start hitting hard smoke on it because then the inherent antimicrobial products uh you know properties of the smoke uh can have effects, whereas they can be blunted if you have a full pellicle on the outside. Yeah, that's also in the in the in the literature. Any good ideas, you guys, for you? I I just eat that stuff raw.
+
+[24:10] It's so expensive here, to that what they call salmon jerky and salmon candy, that like I just eat it by itself. I never use it for anything. However, it would be fantastic grated over pasta. Yeah. I mean, obviously.
+
+[24:20] Totally. It'd be delicious grated over pasta. And Nastasha likes almost anything grated over pasta. Right? It's true.
+
+[24:27] Yeah? Although you don't like batarga, right? I do. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[24:30] Someone I know doesn't like botarki. It's ridiculously expensive. That's the problem with petarga. And sometimes it's over cured and can have that weird flavor. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[24:38] Yeah. It's hard for you to understand over the air what's the kind of things you have to deal with, sort of like white truffles. It's like so extravagantly expensive. You just shave it on stuff. Yeah, yeah, right, right.
+
+[24:44] And so someone yelled at me, I forget what it was. Was it Chris Young? Maybe. Someone was like, well, just because something's expensive doesn't mean that you can't do all kind of wacky crazy stuff to it. I don't know.
+
+[24:58] For me, it's like it's like the time that someone gave us like a little block of tea that costs four hundred dollars and they didn't tell us that it costs four hundred dollars and we made a drink with it. You know what I mean? Like a bourbon drink. Bourbon drink was delicious, though. Remember that styles?
+
+[25:10] Puar tea? That was some delicious stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was the kind of thing where it's if it's expensive and then all about flavor, you just showcase the flavor. And not only that, it's like if it's really expensive, unless you're rich, right?
+
+[25:23] Yeah, you don't get to have it very often. So it's like any sort of nuance that's in the thing. I mean, your product, maybe your product that you make, like our bourbon drink, maybe it was better than the tea by itself, right? But that's not the point. The point is you can't have this tea very often and you want to absorb all the nuances.
+
+[25:37] Even if something's the best thing in the world, if it's, you know, dripping off of every rafter, then you can eat some of it by itself, enjoy its nuances, and then you can dork with it because it's not prohibitively expensive to get more of it if you've messed up. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I don't know, it's just my two cents. All right.
+
+[25:52] Uh Brian writes in about sulfites. So a lot on the to food safety analogy stuff today, looks like. We always go in in uh in uh what's it called? In um you know, in whatever. Uh hey, Nastasha, Joe, Dave, and whoever is in the booth right now.
+
+[26:06] I like that one. Sweet. Uh and Ariel, someone in this in the actual studio. I'm trying to dehydrate some apricots. Good call.
+
+[26:13] I like dehydrated apricots. Yeah, your favorite? Your favorite? Blenum. Mine, blend them.
+
+[26:17] Blenhem's are good. Yeah, yours. Do you have any other favorites? Uh not by variety. No, yeah, Blenheim's awesome.
+
+[26:22] Yeah, those are California Blenheims. What do you what are your thoughts on those Australian sugary ones that they dip in the honey and then do no? Not your thing. She's making a not my thing face. I mean I live in the Central Valley, so get some crap on apricots.
+
+[26:36] Alright, alright, fair. Uh that would be the Central Valley of California. Uh Stas, but you have any apricot thoughts? No, I like mangoes. Uh uh, you know what, Stas?
+
+[26:46] This is one of the reasons actually, like people think I'm gonna bust on around. That's one of the reasons I I I like Stas is like just like the straight up non-sequitur. No, no, I like to hydrated mangoes. I mean, but like they can both be good products, right? Yeah.
+
+[26:58] But in other words, you're saying that if you could push a button and wipe out every apricot tree and have dried mango instead, you would do that. I'm with you, Nastasia. Wow. Thanks, very strong, Jack. Yeah, Jack, pulling it.
+
+[27:09] Okay. I'll take like a good dried apricot over a mediocre fresh apricot. Oh, I will take any good dried apricot over mediocre dried apricot. And you know what I hate hard to get good fresh apricots. Yeah, they s they're mostly suck.
+
+[27:21] Once they make it to the store, they suck. And uh here's something I don't like is like, no offense, California, but like the little, or it's actually I think a lot of these are made uh foreign, but the little ones that are done whole, they're good, but they're not like baller, they're not awesome. Like the big flat, split, brightly orange blendums that you get from California high-grade California producers. Like, I would take those over many things in life. What I think of Oh, uh, Brian, we'll get back to your sulfite question in a minute.
+
+[27:49] Caller, you're on the air. Uh, is this me? Yeah, how you doing? Okay, I'm good, I'm good. Uh two things.
+
+[27:55] Um, hey, I called you two or three weeks ago about the pizza seal. Yeah, how'd it work? Beautifully. Nice. I haven't even used it for pizza yet, but like tortillas or shearing steaks, you put that fucker on the grill and get it on high for a few minutes.
+
+[28:12] I mean, it's it it cooks things. And you got you got it from that guy who's associated with modernist cuisine that's up here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly the guy you sent me to. Nice, nice.
+
+[28:24] So it's I mean it's I give that one a hundred percent stamp of approval. Sweet. Sweet. Hey, my actual question, and it's actually my single biggest cooking problem, is actually about washing dishes. On the West Coast, they have taken quote unquote the detergent out of the detergent for water quality issues.
+
+[28:46] And it doesn't matter. Can it work? Does somebody sell on the internet like a f a five-pound bucket of that that I can add back a tablespoon at a time so my dishwasher will actually do something? Uh Ariel, are you up with uh what's going on with uh West Coast detergents? I did not know that.
+
+[29:01] Huh? It sounds like the kind of thing that California would pass legislation on first, but so it's uh so what what are they getting rid of it? I see I need to research this. It's like they're getting rid of phosphates, right? Yeah, they're getting rid of the phosphorus, yeah.
+
+[29:12] And so they and and I don't have those because I'm here in New York, so they they don't work, they don't work where spit. Well, I mean, you know, if if there's a spec speck on your dish when it goes in the dishwasher, there'll be a speck on your dish when it comes out, except it's baked on nicely now. Oh man. All right, so I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. Stas, write that down, email it to us as part of next week's stuff to research, and I'm gonna research uh anything, because I haven't looked into it yet, anything that there is to know about this uh problem, and maybe even uh I'll try to put in a call to the manufacturer and see whether they can give me some whether they're willing to say that the stuff doesn't work as well.
+
+[29:49] It's like in the old days uh with the model cement, right? Tester, if any of you ever made plastic models. Testers, they had the blue tube cement that was safe, and the red tube cement that contained a bunch of toluene. And we all knew that the toluene worked nine times better. So we never bought the blue tube stuff.
+
+[30:05] And I think testers pretty much agreed, they're like, yeah, the toluene stuff works better. That's why we still make it even though it's not cool. But anyway, so I'll I'll I'll tell you what I'll do. Uh I'll uh I'll look I'll look into it. And if you want to also just shoot us like a uh a tweet to make sure we don't forget, I'll do some research for next time around.
+
+[30:21] Alright, it'll be it'll be an email. I don't I don't tweet to speak of. Alright, very good. Thank you very much. Alright, uh talk to you next week.
+
+[30:29] Or talk about it next week. Alright, cool. Uh so back to Brian and his uh sulfites. Okay. So uh I'm trying to deh uh dehydrate some apricots.
+
+[30:36] I have an awesome do you like apricot or apricot? Apricot. Apricot styles? Apricot. Apricot.
+
+[30:41] I like ape because it sounds like like a monkey. Apricot. Okay. And because you remember in uh Wizard of Oz, who put the ape and apricot? No.
+
+[30:48] That's uh the cowardly lion song. What are they got that I ain't got? Courage. You remember this? Oh my god, it can't.
+
+[30:53] It's been a while. Um, you know, like it's this is the thing, like this generation just below mine or a couple things below mine. Like, look, every Thanksgiving you watch the Wizard of Oz. Doesn't matter. You watch Wizard of Oz every Thanksgiving.
+
+[31:06] And after like 10, 11, 12 times of doing this, you just know the whole movie. You don't need to think about it. Anyway. Uh I have an awesome X-caliber dehydrator. Good call.
+
+[31:15] I like Excalibur, like square format X-calibur. Uh yeah, they actually make a white one. I don't know why you'd get the white one, but yeah, they make a white one. But it's the black plastic one. It's very good.
+
+[31:24] Uh it has the biggest, it's the most even of the small, normal, easy to get ones uh in terms of dehydrating, and it also works in a square format, which is much better for uh for anyone that thinks is straight. Okay. Uh some recipes I have found say that the cut fruit should be dipped in either ascorbic acid, uh an ascorbic acid bath or a sulfite bath in order to prevent browning. Which bath is most effective for preventing browning and for how long should I keep the fruit in? I have uh both ascorbic acid and some potassium metabisulfite purchased from my local homebrew shop.
+
+[31:57] I'm concerned about the health risk of sulfites, especially since my wife has asthma, and it seems like the sulfites can impact asthmatics. Thanks so much, Brian. Okay. Uh yeah, so in order in terms of actually making fresh uh fruits not turn brown, uh the sulfites, including uh bisulfites and metabisulfites, are by far the best, uh just in terms of that. Uh and then uh just below them is uh ascorbic acid, uh right underneath that is uh a blanch, an enzyme killing blanch in uh or steam in steaming them to kill them, uh kill it to wipe out the enzymes.
+
+[32:37] Uh and then well, well, well below that is uh not doing anything. So uh if you go to the uh like the in quotes natural food stores and you get the natural brown, gross-looking uh dried fruits, you will find that not only do they look bad compared to their uh more processed, shall we say, brethren, right? They're these ones are boys' anastasia, happy? Yeah. Uh but uh also they don't taste as good because they've uh they you know the oxidation isn't just a color issue, it's also a taste issue.
+
+[33:16] So, uh, what you're gonna want to do is uh now, by the way, you you don't want to over if you add too much sulfites. If you were to just taste, if you're not uh um what's the word I'm looking for? Sensitive to sulfites, taste that powder, it tastes nasty. I don't like it. A lot of people say they can't detect the sulfites in things.
+
+[33:36] I can taste sulfite and I can taste sulfite bath. Uh the salt, the sulfites, this the sulfur is actually getting consumed by the process of what it's doing, so you're not you're not getting all of the flavor on the fruit when it's done that you're getting if you dip and taste the bath by itself, and so uh, and I've never used it as a dehydration aid. But according to the literature, when they're doing it commercially, they're using extremely powerful solutions of uh of bisulfites, like on the order of two to five percent, which is well higher than uh what you'd be using. The folks at Excalibur recommend uh dissolving uh between one and two teaspoons of bisulfite or a little over two teaspoons of uh regular sodium sulfite, which you don't have, into each quart of water, which looks to me, did some back of the envelope math, is about a half of a percent or in that range. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:28] A half to a little over half, you know, up to three quarters of a percent uh or a little more, and let it soak in that for about five minutes for a slice, they say, or 15 minutes for larger halved fruits. Okay? So that's what they're looking for in in sulfites. You're gonna need uh probably a lot more than that of uh ascorbic acid. Um you're probably gonna have to use um you can just sprinkle ascorbic acid on, but I don't do that, or make a uh and toss it or make a bath.
+
+[34:55] But I would probably do uh a percent uh or two of uh ascorbic acid. And I wouldn't b bother buying the the the fresh fruit stuff like what ball makes, because that's just a mixture of citric acid and ascorbic acid. The citric acid isn't really an antioxidant, it's just lowering the pH, which makes it more difficult for the enzymes to do their dirty work, right? Now, the if you're gonna blanch as opposed to using sulfites, the problem is is that that wipes out the enzymes, but it isn't actually an antioxidant. And so even without the polyphenol oxidase enzymes that are in the fruit, uh eventually over time you'll get uh non-enzymatic browning of the product.
+
+[35:36] So it's not a long, long-term solution. Uh another thing you're gonna want to do with apricots is to push the like when you take the halves, push the halves to break their backs. That's gonna open up more of the fruit of the apricot to speed your dehydrating, and the faster you get it down without case hardening it, the better you're gonna be from a quality standpoint. On sulfites and asthmatics, uh I went to Fadia.com, which is now owned by Sir uh Thermoscientific, uh, and they're the people that make the rapid uh immunoassays for different uh allergens. Uh and so they have a very good website, uh fadia.com, ph a d ia.com.
+
+[36:13] Uh now their their gig, what they make their money off of is protein-based um uh uh, you know, IgE uh antibody tests assays, which are protein reactions. So they don't really do sulfites, but they had something on it. And their website, which is pretty good, says that roughly two little under two percent of the general population has some sort of sensitivity to sulfite at some level. Now the the issue is everyone who's everyone who says that no one has a problem with sulfites, especially in wine, just go like, well, there's natural sulfites in wine. And that's true, it's true, but uh, you know, the the fact of the matter is that um sulfite is not like an all or nothing situation, it is very dose dependent on what kind of reaction you're gonna get.
+
+[36:58] So real 2%, less than two percent of the general population, less than, we don't know what the number is, less than two, is sensitive to some reasonable amount of sulfite in food. Now, uh on the flip side, if you are uh asthmatic, and probably according to the data I've read, if you uh if you have asthma that responds to steroid therapy, right, in the form of steroid inhalers and things like that, uh, four to eight percent of asthmatics in that category are uh sensitive to to sulfite. So you're looking at probably four times greater than the average population, which is a lot, but it doesn't mean that your wife is necessarily um you know allergic to it. Now, it's not one of those things that is uh where it's like, well, people are you know they're just hysterical about it. Uh there's been uh double blind uh placebo studies with sulfites in sealed capsules, so that there was no possibility of tasting the sulfur.
+
+[37:53] But now that's the gold standard for uh allergy testing, and it's how it was proven, Nastasha, that MSG is not something that causes reactions. Uh double blind placebo uh uh capsule-based studies. Uh and so people who reacted positive to that were given uh different levels of sulfites in wines and uh a good bit of blind and a good bit of them had uh very severe asthmatic reactions to it. So um don't fool around with it. You're gonna want to if you think that she might be uh you know, if she doesn't, if she has like you know, wines that are known high in sulfites all the time, and she eats dried fruits and she has no problem, yeah.
+
+[38:34] Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, she probably she has no problem. If she's had problems in the past, I would go to a doctor and they do what's called a challenge study, where in a controlled environment, in case you go into in case you have a very severe asthma attack, they uh they can fix you right away. But following the rules uh that the X caliber people, you're probably gonna have a lower level of sulfites than you would in a highly doped out commercial thing, anyway. And if she has no problem with that, she probably won't have any problem with yours.
+
+[38:59] Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I would tend to agree. We have do we have a caller? Oh, he was motioning it. Break time.
+
+[39:04] Oh, we're gonna go to commercial break. We'll be back with more cooking issues. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched our free short course on spherification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid, a culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten. Our free course offers helpful step-by-step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct spherification.
+
+[39:45] We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And as always at Chef Steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. And even if you're not a fan of us, you can go there.
+
+[40:22] You might like them anyway. Even if you hate us, you might like them, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[40:27] Uh we had uh oh Stas, I might as well get this with you going. You know, uh anyone who's a regular listener of the show knows that uh Nastasha does not enjoy uh the hipsters. Or really I mean, I like Brooklyn fine, but Nastasha also doesn't enjoy the Brooklyn so much, mainly because of the hipsters and the really bad roads. Yes, right? Yeah.
+
+[40:45] But you hate the I also hate the bad roads. I hate the bad roads. I don't hate I don't hate hipsters, but the roads are a joke. I especially don't like having to pay tickets to use them. But uh it's okay.
+
+[40:54] When's your court date? Uh you're supposed to write it on my calendar. I handed you the slip so that we wouldn't forget. Oh. We'll look it up when we get back to the land.
+
+[41:01] Uh next week I might be in jail. Who knows? Uh anyway, so Tony Brudori wrote in uh from the website, uh sending us from the website K uh XKCD, which is like a I love that website. Yeah, so why don't you tell us something about it since this is the first time I've seen it. XKCD, it's uh fantastic minimalist webcomic about uh science and math and things like that.
+
+[41:26] Love too. Yeah, so so uh we we like those things. Did you uh did you look at the comic? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[41:31] So it's a comic uh with uh so it's a graph of uh time on the on the x-axis, and on the y axis is uh prevalence, right? Or as it's put here, how often I see, dot dot dot. Uh and it starts out, and it time is over the course of years. So this this is a this is a uh a plot over the course of years. And what's interesting is is that uh the first part, the first line in the graph is uh hipsters, how often I see them.
+
+[41:55] And uh it it follows um basically a logistic equation uh for uh growth, where uh it starts out in basically a log phase growth. That's it, you know, it goes into a log phase growth, and then after the log phase growth, uh it kind of plateaus out to a certain kind of uh stable population number with the carrying capacity of hipsters, presumably in in Brooklyn or wherever it is, right? For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, logistics, well go to Wikipedia that uh uh then a similar, slightly lower, right, below the maximum number of uh hipsters, right? Uh is complaints about hipsters. So what's interesting is the carrying capacity for the complaints about hipsters, it's uh like a like you're you have a like a lag of uh of about a year while you're incubating the beginning of the of the complaints about hipsters, and then they go into their log phase of growth.
+
+[42:47] And they plateau out slightly below the actual number of hipsters. So there are always being more hipsters than there are complainers about hipsters, which is depressing from Nastash's point of view, because it means you can't win. Right, right. Then a slightly smaller and much lower carrying capacity with a much longer lag phase is complaints about the constant use and discussion of the word hipster. Yeah, right.
+
+[43:06] And then and then even it's still in the log phase, so we don't know what the final carrying capacity is, but presumably lower is complaints that every level of meta opinion on hipsters represents the same tedious navel gazing by insecure people, right? And then just starting, but with an extremely extremely high uh thing, plateaued out right away, like after a unit of one, is graphs making it all worse, which includes itself. It's a self-referential. So thank you for that. Thanks.
+
+[43:32] Uh and uh, you know, Randall Monroe draws that comment. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is he is he a good fellow? Yeah, no, I've well I've been reading it for like eight years.
+
+[43:41] Oh, big fan. Nice. All right. Now, a couple of quickies. Aaron Morin writes it.
+
+[43:45] Morin or Moran? What do you think? Moran. Moran? Okay.
+
+[43:48] Writes in about the VAC master. Hammering the boys. I like that. Hammering the boys. Hammer Ariel and the boys today.
+
+[43:54] Okay. Uh I'd love to hear Dave follow up on the VAC master VP112 question he got about a month back in regards to uh why why did I why did I uh monster trucks that I don't know. Anyway. By the way, when I do that voice, what that voice is is the monster trucks. Yonker's raceway, no!
+
+[44:09] Uh question he got about uh a month back in regards to this particular model being c uh comparable to the Mini Pack or other uh you know commercial uh vacuum chamber vacuum machine. If you could go a little into detail as to where the VP model doesn't measure up uh even better. In my case, the machine would be used in residential uh applications and would never be used in a commercial setting. Thanks in advance, uh, Aaron um Moran from Edmonton, Alberta. Okay.
+
+[44:34] So again, I have never used it myself, and uh the issue with it is is that it doesn't have uh the same kind of uh very strong vacuum pump, and it also it has a much smaller chamber size than um is in any of the kind of commercial machines that I'm used to. Uh Hervé uh Maliber from the French Culinary Institute, the international what are they called themselves now? International Culinary Center. Culinary center, who uh has taken over my role there as being the tech guy, and he's more legit in Frenchiness. He's like a serious actual Frenchie.
+
+[45:07] Anyway, uh the Vacmaster people sent him a free one at the school to test. You know what we got? Cardopolis, cardopolis. Anyway, so like we got that's that's that's some language for Ninda for nothing. Anyway, so uh goose eggs.
+
+[45:23] So like I've never used one, so I can't make any real comments on it. Ervais seems to like it. My guess is that it won't handle uh he said he did some vacu infusion. Uh my guess is that it won't handle liquids very well. Uh it's gonna be difficult to clean because it's a uh you know uh uh diaphragm pump, so you're gonna have to I think, or maybe it's pissed in.
+
+[45:40] So you're gonna have to run it a long time to get any vapor that's trapped in it out. Um maybe possibly put a desiccant in near it. I don't know, to get rid of the stuff when it's sitting around. But it's just not going to be as fast or as baller or have as big of a thing. At home, Herva seems to think it's gonna work well.
+
+[45:56] I'm hesitant to recommend anything I've never used myself. That's fair. Yeah. Um Tom Fisher writes in about Coon Recon. Uh Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe, and now Eddie, although it's not in there, but I'm sure he would have called them out.
+
+[46:08] And if you knew Ariel was here, I'm sure you would have called her out too. Uh I've finally got a Coon Recon pressure cooker. During the first use, I noticed that after the valve began to rise, I was getting a quiet hissing sound with occasional wisps of steam. I like that word wisps of steam. Uh once the unit got up to pressure, the wisps of steam steam stopped, but the top valve continued to make a quiet hissing noise.
+
+[46:29] Twisting the valve cap slightly reduced the sound for a moment, but shortly it returned. Is this normal? Thanks, Tom. Okay. So for those of you uh and uh my my Coon Recon is at the lab.
+
+[46:41] I actually don't have a pressure cooker anymore. My electric one finally died. Yeah, so I have to take my pressure cooker back. Wow, poor me. Was it the the Kitchen Aid one that we uh Queas Nart that I hacked?
+
+[46:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I don't know what I did. It's like but it's like dead. Like it's not like it's just dead.
+
+[46:55] So I have to look at it. I could probably fix it. Whatever. We're not we're not talking about queas right now. Okay.
+
+[47:00] So uh Coon Recon uh has, or the old ones that I have have a like a silver face plate and then a uh a knob that pulls up and down. The knob that pulls up and down is a spring loaded valve that has two red lines on it that indicate the pressure that's in it. It's an actual pressure gauge. And it's hooked up to a uh a spring on the underside of the thing. As the steam pushes up, uh it pushes uh that valve up, and that what is what registers pressure.
+
+[47:27] If you were to lift the uh little kind of kind of plate, the guide plate out, the stainless one that surrounds that. There's also a second button on the Coon Recon that is a little metal piece and rubber that is a secondary safety. That guy is going to continue to hiss until it comes up to pressure, and then it should self-seal, right? Especially if you have a relatively new one. So what I typically do, because mine's old and I haven't replaced the rubber is I sit there and with the back end of an offset spatula, I just whack that thing until I seat it and it just stops hissing altogether.
+
+[48:05] That's the little that's the little button on the right. The actual pressure knob that moves up and down should not leak unless you over pressure it. Once you take it past the second ring and another about three eighths of an inch beyond the second ring or somewhere in that range, it's going to vent violently up through that pressure knot. And that's one of the safety features is that it starts venting steam through that. It should not vent steam through that prior to that happening.
+
+[48:33] If it is, uh it is simple underneath the red part when you have it disassembled, unassemble unscrew it, clean everything. I've done it once, you don't want to put like oil on it to make it smooth because what happens is the oil will tend to polymerize and gum up, and then you know you have other issues with it gumming up. Uh but just make sure that it's screwed down tightly and that all the parts are in order. But no, that should not leak. I mean, maybe make a make a tiny, but you shouldn't get steam.
+
+[49:04] That was a noise. They shouldn't make like a uh, it shouldn't make a lot of hissing. You definitely shouldn't see any steam, and you should be able to stop that button on the side that you is not visible normally when you're doing from hissing. Let me know if you're still having problems because um you know you having problems is interesting to me. Uh especially on a Kun Recon.
+
+[49:24] Uh Nicole Craig writes in about pasta uh from the restaurant Root in in uh in Nola, which I'm assuming means New Orleans, Louisiana. And not, you know, north of north of Louston. I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah. Uh I'm thinking of trying to reconstitute some house-made granola into a sort of pasta or possibly even a cracker.
+
+[49:46] The granola has some currants and raisins in it, not a lot. So I'm thinking of steeping this product in milk and then spreading it onto a sill pat and putting it into a dehydrator. Uh and I can't use a machine to make the pasta because of the oil in the oats. That's probably true, plus the sugar. Like, don't ever.
+
+[50:01] I've put sugared things into pasta. Whoa, whoa. And oily things, oh. No, no. That's a never do again.
+
+[50:11] What was the dough we fed into the pasta thing at the school and it just got sucked into the pasta thing and like wrapped around it like eight times. Oh no. And we couldn't get it out. Oh, I'm sorry. We couldn't get it out.
+
+[50:22] Remember that? We threw it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, yeah, it was a nightmare. And like you can't put water on the pasta machines to clean them.
+
+[50:31] Yeah, Stas is having memories. Memories. Yeah, yeah. Uh okay. So, yeah, so don't do that.
+
+[50:38] Uh so I'm also thinking of making gnocchi. Any suggestions on a good way to do that? Thanks, uh Nicole Craig. Uh, did you look up the restaurant there? Yeah, it's in New Orleans.
+
+[50:48] I'm gonna go there when I go down there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay.
+
+[50:53] Here's my thoughts on that. Uh, one, most of the time, if you're gonna make a cracker or something with uh granola, you do it by cooking off the oats dry, then adding the granola-y crap to it. The honey, the sugar, the butter, uh anything like that. And those products are used as the binder to bind the product into uh a granola barish or cracker if you go really thin shape, right? So if you're dealing with uh product that's already been cooked and you want to make a cracker out of it, I think if you well, first of all, if you soak it in milk, you're gonna be taking away a lot of those products that are in it, and you need to add them back because that's all that's binding it, really.
+
+[51:34] I mean, you might get some kind of starch out from the from the oats that help bind it, but I'm not sure. But what you could do, you could probably blend it, uh, blend it, milk it, blend it, spread it thick on a silpat, dehydrate it, the sucker will probably hold together on the basis of what's already in there. Or you could do what uh Anna Ginsberg from Daily Cookie on the Cookie Madness website does, uh, and just add more butter, brown sugar, honey, uh, and syrup to the to the granola, which you can then powder, spread out, and then uh she does that no bake, so she lets it sit in a dehydrator, or you could do it like twil style in a dehydrator and dry the stuff out and make it thin. If you don't want to add extra sugar, you could probably also uh melt yourself uh, you know, some other you know, non s non-hyper sweet product like isomalt or something like that, melt it and tweel it out that way and make something really crunchy. Now, on the gnocchi, I was trying to find anyone that had a recipe for a uh gnocchi that contained pre-cooked um dry starch-based stuff.
+
+[52:38] And we all know that you know, like potatoes are put in, they're cooked in, but but I wasn't able to find anything that used a dry soaked cooked thing on uh on a gnocchi specifically, and I looked actually I'd look for my copy of my old Buggiali books, Giuliano Buggiali, because if anyone had one, he would have a crazy recipe for something like that. But but it's entirely possible, obviously, to soak uh to soak bready things and then add them back to new things. I'm gonna tell you this might work for a sweet style uh uh gnocchi. I I don't know how to do it, but a recipe that I used to make a lot, uh I when I I when my mom my mom had all her cookbooks in the basement back in the day. And I would uh go down and uh read them, including like the uh the was it Woman's Day Cooking Encyclopedia, which I read the hell out of.
+
+[53:24] Right? Read the hell out of that thing. And then uh my mom, like like right at the right when I was finishing high school, and I would come back from college and read recipes, including things to make uh while I was wooing my wife, uh, was uh gourmet's best desserts circa 1987. And on page 328 of that book, uh there's a recipe for steamed cranberry pudding with Grand Marnier sauce. And I used to make that thing all the time because I was obsessed for a little while with steamed puddings, but I wanted to do an American steamed pudding, not some sort of British thing.
+
+[53:53] And plus, I had even less patience then than I do now. So the idea of making like you know, a Christmas pudding and aging it for a year, I was like, the hell with that. Okay, age a pudding for a year. What the hell do I look like? You know, that's like a big chunk of your life when you're you know 19.
+
+[54:05] Uh so anyway, so uh the recipe for that, which I will uh which well I'll tell you so basically with the steamed pudding, the the upshot is is they use dried bread crumbs, they mix it back in with some flour, uh eggs and butter and a little bit of leavener and then steam it together and it holds together its shape. And it's classic to make it with a pre-cooked uh farinaceous product like breadcrumbs. But I'm sure granola would also work. So I'll give you their recipe real quick. Uh three and three quarters cup of cranberries and uh a half cup of blanched almonds, pulse those things to break them up.
+
+[54:38] Add a little more than uh uh one and three quarters cup of sugar, uh cinnamon, uh like three quarters teaspoon cinnamon, quarter teaspoon allspice, quarter teaspoon ground ginger, uh, and then uh mix that stuff all together. Now take your three crus of breadcrumbs, or in your case, pulsed out granola, uh maybe lighten it with a little bit of breadcrumbs, uh, three-quarters of a cup of butter, two thirds a cup of milk, and uh three whisked eggs, uh, and a tablespoon of baking powder, a little bit of salt if you need it, depending on what kind of butter you use. Uh mix those things together, combine the two things, fold them together, put them. Now you have something that would normally be a steamed pudding, but it would seem to me that you could probably poach that stuff out. If you had like a nice flavorful thing, or if you added some methyl cell or something to hold it together, you could probably poach them like a gnocchi dumpling, right?
+
+[55:21] Yeah. If you made it a little more, if you added a little more binder to it, you could probably figure out some way to poach those out, or to like like steam them or something. Yeah, or steam just little. Yeah, steam little pudding things. And then the glaze that they added, which is awesome, which you would just take uh you would take uh cranberries and a little more sugar, cook them down to make a cranberry sauce glaze, which you pour over the top, and then a grand marnier sauce, which is butter and grammarnier, like a like a Bourbon with Gram Marnier, which is ball, it's a ball or dish.
+
+[55:48] If you're actually gonna make the full pudding, you're gonna steam it for a couple of hours in a pudding thing. Make sure you let it cool sufficiently before you unmold it, or it'll just explode uh under its own weight when it comes out. But that's it's a good it's a good product. What? We gotta go.
+
+[56:00] Uh, they're cutting me off. Oh well, next time I'll talk about uh Rachel Dutton, who we met, who's like the microbiologist uh at Harvard, who has some interesting things to say about uh clush uh clostridium uh and cultures and salt rate uh raised bread and reading of cassava and the uh question we got in right before the show that James had about um agar clarified gins. So we'll get to that next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org.
+
+[56:33] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[56:57] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:27] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies.
+
+[1:13] Oh, cooking what? Cooking what? Cooking issues. Coming to you live from a birth pizzeria in the back of Butchwick, Brooklyn! On the Heritage and Host of Cookies.
+
+[1:21] I wish. Yeah. Can we start a new show? It's called Host of Cookies. Actually, that would be Tozy's show, right?
+
+[1:27] That would be Christina Tozie's show. She could be the host of the show. Cookies issues, yeah. Cookies issues? She could she can handle that.
+
+[1:32] Maybe she should just maybe we could get her to guest host one time and just do cookies issues. Right? What do you think, Seth? Sounds good. Yeah?
+
+[1:38] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Save us a week of work. Uh anyway, joined as usual with Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez. How do you do Sass?
+
+[1:45] Good. Yeah? Yes. Anything uh interesting uh happening? Nothing.
+
+[1:50] Really? Not since I saw you eight hours ago. Uh remember, the people who are listening haven't heard from you since last week. Yeah, you know. Thank people.
+
+[1:58] How many years have we done this show, Jack? I think going on like three now, right? Three years. Something like that. Three years.
+
+[2:04] Nastasha still has not figured out that the people who are hearing this don't hang out with us all the time. Weird, right? Well, I haven't done anything interesting since the last time I spoke. Have you? It's kind of sad.
+
+[2:16] Um have I? I don't know. I feel like I have. I don't know. I have to think about what I did last uh last week, and I feel like I have, but I haven't thought about it.
+
+[2:24] What about you, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth? Uh I'm going to Bonaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Wednesday. Nice. Nice. Tomorrow?
+
+[2:33] We're throwing up a pizza party there. Nice. And well, I did do something interesting actually last Tuesday, right after the radio show, uh, in the evening, Heritage Radio had its first ever all host meeting. Right, Jack? All host meetings.
+
+[2:47] Nice. Sweet. And uh, you know, uh maybe maybe after the uh first uh break, maybe Jack can say some of the changes that are gonna be happening on uh on our fine network over the next over the next year or so, right? Lots of fun stuff. Yeah, you want to do that?
+
+[3:00] Sure. Alright, cool. Uh all right, now uh and Joe, I didn't hear anything from you. You doing all right? Well, I'm covering for Jack while he goes to Bonaro, so so not so much.
+
+[3:10] So you're you're gonna be you're gonna be moping. All right. Last week we had a question about oh, by the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. We're gonna be here for the next 45 minutes or so, ready to answer your questions.
+
+[3:23] Now last week we got a question in that I wasn't prepared to answer about phosphates and dishwashing detergents. So, uh for those of you that don't know, uh a couple of years ago, uh a bunch of states, and then I think finally the federal government said, you know what, you're gonna have to reduce the amount of uh phosphates or eliminate phosphates uh in detergents like laundry detergent. Now, the the big one has a it has it's a it's all the same crud, but it it's it's um it's either called uh it's trisodium phosphate, but it's also like you know, sodium tri polyphosphates and sodium, so it's either like uh, you know, TSP, STP, STPP, uh, and uh what they are uh is just awesome detergent awesomeness. So lots of things are like that though, right? So lots of things are amazing at what they do but cause problems.
+
+[4:13] For instance, asbestos, asbestos, freaking amazing insulator, completely dimensionally stable, uh, you know, really fireproof, um, you know, just awesome from a technical standpoint, awesome. Also kills you. You know, so you know you can't you can't have it both ways. You can't have the the awesome uh fire retardant mitts and also live, it turns out. Um but uh so the phosphates, it's not quite as bad as that.
+
+[4:42] It's not that it's gonna kill you. The issue with phosphates, and the reason that they were removed is because um, according to a bunch of research, one of the limiting factors in algal growth in uh in water bodies is uh free phosphorus. Uh and so if you dump a lot of extra phosphorus into uh the groundwater and it seeps its way into you know rivers and lakes and streams and whatnot, you'll get huge algal blooms that'll choke uh choke out the the life in there. And so that's why uh they say to get uh rid of the um phosphates. Now, phosphates were introduced into detergents, uh, I think, according to some of the research I was doing when I was poking around, you know, fairly soon after World War II.
+
+[5:24] And so what are the what do they do? According to Cascade, who is cascade the dishwashing people, who've removed phosphates from their detergent, this is what they say the phosphates do. Phosphates helped with dis uh dishwashing performance by facilitating food removal, removing the calcium that binds to these types of uh these types of food together, and aided in grease removal. They also helped control water hardness and bound suspended soils within the washwater so that they did not redistribute onto the plates. So and so in that little nutshell there, like what tells you is that phosphates, when specifically this kind of phosphate, trisodium phosphate TSP or STP, whatever you want to call it, are freaking amazing because they do a bunch of different things.
+
+[6:02] First of all, they do uh what's called chelate and sequester uh calcium ions and other metal ions. What those things do uh if you don't do that is they redeposit uh on your on your your stuff and make a film. Also, that disgusting film, you know how stuff is that disgusting film you get around a bathtub? Mm-hmm. Yeah, calcium and stuff, whatnot, different deposits, right?
+
+[6:25] They can also calcium can bind with the soap, right, and then make insoluble stuff. And also, uh first of all, like molecules like calcium binding with your soap and your surfactants, your detergents, they prevent uh that that detergent from doing the job on the dirt, right? So they shaft you that way, and I think they can also kind of cause those things to deposit into that awful film scum stuff, right? Trisodium phosphate is uh, first of all, it's basic, it's alkaline, so automatically it helps break up organic uh organic uh soils. Most organic soils, including the stuff in dishwashing, uh most of the time, it it is uh broken down well by alkaline things, basic things they break down proteins and fats and whatnot.
+
+[7:03] So, which is why they're awesome at declogging grease uh in uh in uh what am I thinking about drains, like liquid plumber, right? So they're awesome at that. They also uh they're basic. They also uh chelate and sequester out uh calcium and other ions that that shaft you uh and so they're called what they're there's what's called builders in the trade. And so they do those phosphates that phosphate do a number of different things that it's very hard for one thing to replace it to to fix.
+
+[7:30] So what are they adding to it uh nowadays? They're adding sodium carbonate. So sodium carbonate, uh, which you can make, you know, McGee uses it for pretzels sometimes. You bake the hell out of baking sodium and it turns from bicarbonate to carbonate. They add this, it's extremely uh alkaline, right?
+
+[7:45] So it does some of the stuff that uh that the phosphates did. Problem with it is is that's the stuff, I'm pretty sure from from you know noodling around, that's the stuff with the new detergents that's turning your aluminum pots and pans all uh black and disgusting. So the reason why your pots, your aluminum stuff is getting destroyed in the dishwasher now is because of things like sodium carbonate. The other thing, one of the other things they add is sodium percarbonate. So this is actually what's I looked up what's in cascade now, the phosphate-free.
+
+[8:14] Sodium per carbonate is added, and that is the main uh one of the main ingredients in oxyclean, because it cr uh when you add it to water, it um it degrades and turns into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. So then that also is turning your your aluminum pots gray and disgusting, but it's got the oxyclean stuff, which is supposed to make up for some of the lack of bleaching and cleaning power when they took out the phosphates. They uh they also add sodium citrate, which you know we use in cooking all the time. Uh oh, by the way, also the phosphates, the same reason we use them uh in uh in cooking, they act as kind of emulsifying salts, which is also good at binding the grease and causing it from redepositing. They also have to add uh sodium silicate, which is actually not sodium silicate, it's a it's a specialized metasilicate that they use uh along with uh modified polyacrylate, which is an anti-redeposition agent.
+
+[9:03] It's the same crap they use in diapers stas to make it in uh absorb all the stuff, but that's uh you know a different form of it. Anyway, so there's a bunch of different things they're adding uh to it to try and get rid of the phosphates, and they haven't totally gotten it right yet. But they are uh apparently working on it. But by all accounts, uh, you know, they they switch because they didn't want to make a bunch of different detergents for all over the country, uh, but they haven't gotten it 100% right yet. But there is there's good news and bad news.
+
+[9:29] If there's a whole group of people who do not believe this stuff hurts the environment, and if you are one of those people, you can go on the uh they also add some enzymes, by the way, to break down proteins before this stuff uh starts if you have a pre-soaker if you use cold water. Okay. Uh you can go on Amazon and order boxes of uh trisodium phosphate TSP. It's gonna run you around eight dollars the pound uh if you order the uh Savo Gran brand uh and if you order that's that's Amazon Prime. There's another brand called uh well DAP, they're famous people, but they make a TSP that you can get.
+
+[10:00] I think you can still buy it at Home Depot uh because it's still used uh in pressure washing the sides of buildings prior to painting. So what you can do is just like add a uh you know, add a teaspoon of that to uh to the your regular detergent, and that should phosphorous up the stuff and bring back some of the old goodness of phosphorus. Of course, you might be shafting the environment. What do you think, Stas? Who cares?
+
+[10:22] Wow. No, that was easy. Yeah, Stas is Stas is gonna go out after this. Uh I I have a meeting, but she's gonna go uh frack. She's gonna go frack some stuff.
+
+[10:32] Hey Dave, you have a caller on the line. Alright, cool. So that's the that's the issue on detergents. Go buy the stuff if you need to. Otherwise, sit tight.
+
+[10:38] They're gonna make the stuff work eventually. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, everybody. Howdy. Uh this is Aaron calling from Oregon.
+
+[10:47] Oh, Oregon. Where in Oregon you have? Yeah. Uh I used to be a dishwasher when I first started out in the industry. I basically had the same well, same problem with all the aluminum pans.
+
+[11:02] We had the big cling on it. Makes a lot of sense now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and by the way, just to go back for a second, uh, you can also buy industrial industrial dishwashing stuff can still have the phosphates in it, so you so you can get it.
+
+[11:14] But that's uh that's a that's a a good note. And I think even the phosphate ones, they will ruin the aluminum somewhat, but just not as badly as the new ones do. The deal is is that the um the sodium carbonate and things like it, what they do is they eat away the protective oxide surface on the aluminum and then allow it to react with the water more. So that that that's that's what's going on. So wait, but before you go though, where in or where in Oregon are you?
+
+[11:40] Where in Oregon are you? Uh Lake Swego. Uh little South Portland. Yeah. Well, I still have not made I'm I was in Portland recently, but I still have not made it to Corvalis yet, which is my dream to go to Corvalis during berry season.
+
+[11:55] Uh but you got a question for me? I do. It's about ice cream. A friend of mine owns an ice cream shop here in Portland. And we were having a discussion about making a sea salt ice cream, about adding it in and folding in sea salt to get crunch of sea salt.
+
+[12:14] Right. But we run into the problem of osmosis and the sea salt itself melting into the mix and frozen base itself. Yes, I would imagine the idea of either powdering it with multixtrin or emulsifying in some sort of fat. But we haven't had the chance or the money or the time basically to test any of it out. I was wondering if you had any ideas on how something like that might work, if it's possible at all.
+
+[12:46] Well, I mean if uh yes, if you had enough time, I'm sure it's possible. What i any time that salt is contacting a uh a water based uh like a a liquid, you're going to get um you're gonna get salt melting. It's gonna it's just gonna happen, right? So, you know, you're on the right track. You have to protect the salt with something that is insoluble in um in water.
+
+[13:13] So for instance, you could chocolate coat the salt. You know what I mean? Or you could or you know, uh you don't have to use chocolate chocolate, you could use another solid fat like cocoa butter or something like that and coat the salt. So if you were to take like a like a panning attachment, I'm sure you could pan malting crystals with uh cocoa butter and then fold them into your ice cream and as long as there's no route for the water to enter, I mean it won't last forever, but it'll last a lot longer than you have now. I mean otherwise you're gonna have to do something you know, fairly sophisticated, like coat it with another water insoluble product, like for instance cornzane.
+
+[13:50] But the problem with cornzane, cornzane is a a protein that's uh soluble in alcohol but not in water. So you would dissolve the xane in high proof ethanol, toss the salt and it won't dissolve the salt out, and then uh you let the alcohol flash off and you get a coating around the salt. I don't know how completely impermeable the zane is, but it's used as a confectionary coating at times to prevent moisture migration, right? But I don't again I don't know how long it's gonna last. Like the third choice, I mean the third choice would be uh, you know, you you could use uh what's called an alpha tending emulsifier and an oil and you mix them, and then as they as they start drying out, they should form a film around the outside of the salt.
+
+[14:28] But you're gonna need some sort of moisture uh impermeable thing. I mean, the the best I I mean the best thing I can think of is something so chocolate is quite thick. Cocoa butter is fairly thin when it melts, so you might be able to get a constantly churning thing of cocoa butter and get a very thin coating. I'm not sure. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:47] Or like just make it into like blocks of sugar and uh and sorry, salt and uh something like like uh white uh chocolate or cocoa butter, some sort of solid fat, and then to shatter it, grind it into smaller pieces. Some of the pieces will be totally protected and others won't. You'll get some of the crunch from the chocolate pieces anyway, but inside of that you'll get crystalline crunch. I don't know of a way of preserving individual salt crystals so that they're not gonna melt out though. Does any of this make any sense?
+
+[15:15] It makes amazing sense, yes. Alright, cool. Um so listen, what what what you should do is if you try any of this stuff, please tweet us back at uh at cooking issues and let us know how it worked, okay? I will. Cool.
+
+[15:28] Uh I am actually heading down to uh the pear orchards this summer. Oh my god. I hope to see you there. Oh my god, I would love to go this summer. I'm gonna try to make it happen.
+
+[15:39] I was gonna go to uh the um Miami to do mangoes again this year, and it turns out it's been a horrible mango crop in uh Miami. Are the pears looking okay over there in Oregon? They're coming out pretty strong right now. Sweet. You want to do that, Stuzz?
+
+[15:53] You want to go to Corvallis? She's like, she doesn't want to go. I'm gonna go. Maybe I'll get McGee to fly up too. Alright, cool.
+
+[15:59] So uh I'll mention over the air if we're gonna do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in. Let's know how it works. Enjoy the rest of your day, guys. You two.
+
+[16:07] Okay, so we had a question in from James last week about making raspberry and other fruit flavored gins. Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe, et al. Yeah, we don't have the et al. No at all today. No at all today.
+
+[16:18] No at all. No at all. Oh, no at all. It's good. I like that.
+
+[16:21] I enjoy the show and have gotten through the archive, so I'm up to date enough to ask a question. By the way, people, do not feel obliged to listen to everything that we have said uh before you ask uh a question, right? Yeah. Right. Okay.
+
+[16:35] Uh I've recently tried your agar clarified strawberry gin recipe from uh the cooking issues blog with a slight modification uh from changing from strawberries to frozen raspberries, it not being the season for fresh berries, and easier to get frozen raspberries. Turned out delicious. Uh the end product is a bit cloudy due to my over squeezing of the gel, but this settles out nicely on the sitting. Alongside this, I tried classic infusion technique, just putting raspberries into the gin and letting it sit at an ISI raspberry gin infusion. Each technique gives a gin which is similarly clarified after letting the ISI and Agar one sit to sediment out.
+
+[17:09] Well, I foolishly didn't keep the gin to raspberry ratio constant for these tests. I would imagine that I can adjust this ratio to match the color and flavor profile of each technique. Do the new techniques simply provide an improved yield, less berries giving a stronger, better flavor, and more rapid processing? If so, what is a good use for the agar clarification alcohol infusion that gives a clarified product when classic infusions won't? Cheers, James.
+
+[17:31] I think it's exactly uh right. The benefit of um agar clarification techniques is that uh when you do it, you know, you blend the fruit and the uh and the product. And so you get uh you know very fast uh you know mingling of the berry and the the the gin. Uh so the the issue is is your your yield is not going to be as high so you're gonna lose uh product I mean I do it in a centrifuge uh luckily the enzyme I use pectinx ultra spl when I do clarification uh is fairly alcohol insensitive so you can you can blend things directly like that with the enzyme the enzyme breaks down the pectins and boom you spin it out I would recommend even if you're doing regular agar clarification go on modernistpantry uh dot com buy some pectin X ultra SPL to break down the pectins in your slurry before you set it with agar you will increase your yield by 20% at least because it thins it out. Um so and on regular infusions you're just sitting a long time making an AkaVede it can take you know days weeks depending on how strong the infusion is uh you know but again it it it's valid I tend to you know when I'm doing infusions and I want them rapidly it's either because I don't have time or because I feel that the quality of the flavor is going to change as it sits for a long long time.
+
+[18:50] Strawberry gin for instance when I make strawberry gin very fresh strawberry gin tastes different from strawberry gin that's been sitting around for a long time. So there is changes that take place in it uh as it sits and so sometimes those changes are good sometimes they're bad sometimes they're just different. So when I want very fresh flavors I'll do ISI or I'll do uh but if you do ISI on berries you want uh on strawberries anyway, you want to slice them very thin so you get rapid, rapid penetration. Raspberries is not such a such a big deal. Um another thing you can do if you want to uh do uh raspberries with a more traditional technique is do a pre-treat of the raspberries with uh pectin methylesterase which is novoshape and I think Monitus Pantry is carrying that now.
+
+[19:36] Uh that will keep the flesh intact over long maceration periods and then put a lot of the raspberries in and it'll even out and then both the raspberry should be good and the uh and the liquor should be good. Most of the time it's either one's good or the other's good but not both, right? Right. Uh oh call caller you're on the air. Hi Dave uh this is Dave.
+
+[19:59] I actually saw you at uh Roberta's two weeks ago. Oh yeah uh yeah in the I was in New York uh it was awesome. I know Berta's food is great. When a WD50 it was amazing. Nice.
+
+[20:10] So yeah it was awesome. Uh so yeah I got a question about uh induction burners. Um about to uh uh move into or I'm moving a coffee shop from one to the other and the other space is a little smaller. We don't have a space for a gas stove. So I was thinking of getting an induction burner because uh mainly for you know making syrups and we also make a little bit of ice cream there.
+
+[20:35] So uh just wondering uh if there's anything I should be looking out for other than size. Well I mean uh so here here's the thing on on induction burners. Uh I I love them. They're they're great, right? Well you gotta make sure you have the the correct power which I'm assuming you do.
+
+[20:51] Uh you have to figure out how you want your uh stations set up. So the induction burners if you're getting portables or movables right they come as singles, and I I wouldn't bother getting the the little the little home jobby ones, like some people try to use those in industrial settings, but they they kind of crap out on you sometimes, and a lot of times, you know, when you're doing professional stuff, you don't want them to crap out on you. Uh, and the reason they crap out on you is because they don't have sufficient cooling circuits to run the thing hardcore, and so if you try to overdrive them, they they shut down uh in thermal overload, they come back, they don't die permanently, but uh that's kind of an irritating thing to have happen to you uh, you know, when you need to get a bunch of stuff out. So, I mean, and and I think that's the main difference between the relatively inexpensive home ones or the ones that are sold portable for catering that can plug into a regular 110 socket and the much bigger ones. The only of the of the bigger ones, you know, I've really only had experience with the with the cook tech ones, but your main choices are the following.
+
+[21:52] You can either get single induction hobs, they're obviously the most portable and they take the least electricity, but they only take uh one uh one pot at a time. Uh the other thing is you can get duels. Now the choice in duels is this they have front back duels and they have side-side duels, right? So the advantage of a front-back duel is that you can you can get you can get one and then you can get another one and stick it right next to it, and now you have like a four-burner range, and then you can get another one and stick it right next to it, and now you have six burners and they're all controlled from the front, right? Which is it seems to me to be a pretty big advantage.
+
+[22:29] Uh but you know, the guys at Sambar had uh one and they were having some problems with it. I don't know whether it's a problem with that unit in particular, but the concept to me is very appealing because it allows you to make a choice now and not be shafted for later. Although nobody wants to cook front back if you only have two. Do you know what I'm saying? If you only have two, you definitely want to cook side-side.
+
+[22:49] But if you know you're eventually gonna gang up four or six of them, then I'm pretty sure you want to go front back. Um the other thing is is that even you know, five, six, seven years ago when people were buying uh commercial induction units, they always broke, always broke. And the the braking features were uh two two reasons. One, a cook would put a pot down very heavy on the uh glass surface and shatter it. I saw more than five broken that way.
+
+[23:14] And then uh the other problem was is that everyone wanted the holy grail of range over oven. And if you do range over oven, especially with the electronics the way they had them, you know, years ago, uh they always burned out. It was like inevitable. So, you know, but it doesn't sound like you're gonna have that problem because you're not going hot over, uh you're not you're not going hot over hot. So you're not gonna have probably cooling issues.
+
+[23:34] You'd want to make sure that those suckers stay ventilated. So it's gonna be a choice for you of of of what kind of configuration you want. You know what I mean? Right. Right.
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+[23:42] I mean, I I would I wouldn't I would don't pay it too much attention to I mean get like a powerful one, but remember that wattage in an induction unit is not comparable to wattage in an electrical uh you know resistance uh heated uh uh range top. Uh it's completely non-comparable because the the efficiencies are you know vastly different between the two. Uh so you know, a much smaller wattage is gonna give you uh it in an induction unit is gonna give you the same output that you're gonna get in terms of like the actual heat in the pan as uh as the as the you know the regular old coil units. And also you can't make a good conversion between BTUs in a gas range and uh watts into the uh into the induction. You know, I've had, you know, I I've done races even with the crappy induction versus you know a fairly good gas, and the the induction most of the time is gonna win because it's directly heating the pan.
+
+[24:40] You get a further mean you're gonna pay more in electricity, no doubt, uh but it you are gonna have less ventilation requirement and it's gonna take less uh HVAC load to cool your kitchen down, should you cool your kitchen down, which you probably will if you know, probably will somewhat. Uh so you you can you can win on those. The only ones I really have experience with though uh on the commercial side are the Cooktex, and I think they work fine. Uh but you know, I don't have a lot of experience with the with the other brands. Is there like a oh a ballpark of like wattage I should be looking out for?
+
+[25:12] Uh well I'm trying to uh well I mean get as high as you can, right? Uh I mean, you know, they they should be, you know, the ones that run on two twenty, you should be able to get a couple kilowatts into them no problem, right? So the ones that you plug into a regular socket are limited to about fifteen hundred watts. That's about the limit that someone's gonna want to suck out of a wall socket. So a fifteen what's one point five kilowatts.
+
+[25:37] So a one point five kilowatt induction burner, the you know, the the standard kind of crappy home models, they are pr they work fairly well. They're not as good as an industrial, you know, range like a jade or one of those things, but uh they're pretty good. They're pretty damn good. But then so if you go to the next jump up, like a three kilowatt burner, I think they make three. Uh but just but look at it that way.
+
+[26:01] Like the most you're gonna suck out of a regular one ten is about one point five kilowatts. So above that you're looking at gravy. If you uh I I I haven't looked at the specs recently because I haven't bought one, but if they have like a two kilowatt or three kilowatt, you're probably looking at you know, mucho powered into the pan. And I I know they make wok burner units that are like four and five kilowatts, and those suckers are nuts. They cause they c they're nuts.
+
+[26:23] They're insane. Well. Alright, cool. Uh well, let us uh let us know how it works out. If you have any more questions, give us a call back.
+
+[26:33] Okay, great. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. Uh, you guys want to go to the first break? Yes.
+
+[26:38] Coming right back with cooking issues. Cooking issues, and the song is called Fish Is Fish Is Vodka. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched our free short course on spherification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid. A culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.
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+[27:45] Our free course offers helpful step by step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct spherification. We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And as always at Chef Steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like.
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+[28:25] Sign up now at ChefSteps.com. Well, you didn't. So, yeah, Jack? Yep. Well, I was just I was just excited because I'm also a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues.
+
+[28:35] I'm glad the guys at Chef Steps are too. You know who else is a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues? Everybody at Heritage Radio. Yeah. Like you said, we had our big first all staff all host meeting.
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+[28:44] Kind of awesome to get everybody in the same room. Well, a lot of people, a lot of the founding hosts, the early hosts in the same room, same time. Um we just debuted the Summer of Food today, which is a student submission program where people are giving us travel logs and uh recordings and musings from their summer of food, which includes coverage on issues of farming, sustainability, and uh all sorts of things. So that's really fun. We're opening up a whole new post-production division of the network.
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+[29:13] Lots and lots of new stuff, and I would highly, highly recommend every listener of cooking issues go to our website, click on evolutionaries, and there's an episode of Harold McGee where he tells his whole life story, really, in a in a very tightly edited, post-produced way. I think it's very fascinating for all fans of modernist cooking. When's that going up? It's up. It has debuted, so it's there for your listening pleasure archived, the evolutionary series on Heritage Radio Network.
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+[29:39] It's right there on the homepage. And you have a bunch more that are coming out over the summer, yeah? Tons, yeah. Wiley as well. Nice.
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+[29:46] Yeah, we edited his. Who knew he was such a uh competitor, sports guy? He likes he likes the sports. He does. He does.
+
+[29:54] He's damaged like his uh you know, some part of his arm, so he has to get it fixed. I think from like, you know, repetitive not from punching his cooks apparently, but from cooking. I think he damaged his uh I don't think it was in sports. I think it was in cooking he didn't. He just always wanted a sports injury and then you know, had to make it happen through cooking.
+
+[30:10] Full contact cooking? Yeah. Nice. McGee's story is really great too. Everyone should check it out.
+
+[30:14] Indian food. Grew up eating Indian food. Well, you know, McGee McGee, half uh half Indian, also McGee, sports guy, but not like you know, compet he's like a uh a runner, has been for a long time. Man runs all the all the damn time. Did you know that?
+
+[30:28] Did he mention that on the on the on the program? You have to listen and find out. Yeah, I'll tell you something. I hate running. No offense, but like I hate running.
+
+[30:35] Like it's I hate it. Like, you know how Stas, do you like running? No. You know how people like they say they get this endorphin rush from running that that they like it and then they like to keep running? I've never felt that in my life.
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+[30:46] You guys? Anyone? Uh no way. No. Joe?
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+[30:50] No, I used to I used to run track, but it was never fun. No, no, it's just not fun. Running around, not fun. Uh although uh uh Dax of of my kids booking Dax Not the Bar, just got picked for the track team. Nice, nice little mini track.
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+[31:04] Okay. Rolf writes in uh dear Miss Hammer and Nails. So I guess I'm the nail getting hit on the head by I guess all of us are. There's nails, so Jack and Joe also getting hit on the head with the hammer. Uh Mustacha, by the way, just uh just during the commercial break, totally busted me because I was remembered last week I said that like I was gonna go to jail because we couldn't find out when my quartet was for my bicycle ticket?
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+[31:27] I was like, I gave it to you, where the hell is it? And she's like, You didn't give it to me, you took it back, and we had a big argument, and I'll do my wallet. Guess what? It was there in my wallet. Right or wrong.
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+[31:36] Right. So now she's gonna now she's gonna be uh she's gonna be moody all day as a result. All uh I just don't like how angry you get. How angry get what? Do I get angry?
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+[31:44] Jack and Joe, do I get angry? I guess I do. But I don't it's not re it's like, you know, it's not serious anger, right? Cartoon anger, huh? Yeah, cartoon anger.
+
+[31:55] That's me. That's why no one takes me seriously. Okay, Rolf writes in, dear Miss Hammer and Nails. Following on Tom Fisher's questions about his kissing Coon Recon pressure cooker. I can add that mine, circa 2009, has always done the same thing.
+
+[32:09] Bought it while living in France, and the customer service there isn't such that it was worth suffering, uh suffering the follow-up a follow up on it that I'd have to do to get it fixed. So I just got used to it. For what it's worth, it's not the secondary slash higher pressure valve, which is the one on the side, uh, but the pressure indicator valve itself. I've taken it apart, cleaned it. It hissed on first use, so it wasn't food contamination.
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+[32:31] Tried to adjust the tightness of the bolt in the bottom of the pressure indicator. Uh used to be I could quiet temporarily by turning it while it hissed. Uh uh, as though either the hole of the or the valve weren't quite round, but no longer. Hope that's useful in your data collecting. Rolf, it is useful actually.
+
+[32:45] And I've heard uh, you know, mine is circa a long, long time ago, but I heard that Coon Recon was having some uh issues with uh QC. That's quality control. Uh having some issues with uh QC for a while, but that they had it fixed. I mean, I'd like to know how many people have this problem with Coon Recon is because one of my favorite things about it is that it doesn't leak uh I mean it's still gonna leak a lot less than you know some of the other brands uh like uh Fagor that you know leak by design. Um but anyway, yeah, I do want that for uh for my research.
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+[33:17] Okay. Uh Colin Gore. Haven't heard from Colin Gore in a while, huh? True. True.
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+[33:21] Writes in about apples. Palm nerds, he calls us. I guess we got some good salutations to uh today, right? Dear palm nerds, my British girlfriend has been looking for Bramley apples in the United States. They're big tart baking apples that it seems can only reproduce by having a threesome super kinky triploid action.
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+[33:41] Uh so the referring to the uh number of sets of chromosomes. So we are diploid, we have two sets of chromosomes. Uh you know, there's when you have more than that, it's called polyploidy, right? So, you know, more than and so the but the problem is is that uh usually it's an even number in order to in order for the things not to be sterile. So three sets, triploid means that usually if you're triploid, you're you know, three sets of chromosomes, you are uh sterile.
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+[34:07] Anyway, uh, you know, not you person you, the fruit tree, not you, the person. Uh because I don't think that that doesn't work for us. Anyway, okay. Uh I recall Broaddale Farm is a massive fruit repository in the UK, but I think you mentioned uh the US la uh having a living library of apples as well. Uh where is that?
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+[34:27] Uh and uh have you cooked with Bramleys? What makes them so interesting to the Brits? And what other weird fruit sex can you share? Okay. So the issue uh first of all, the um the place is in Geneva, New York.
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+[34:40] It's how uh I don't forget how far it is, maybe like four or five hours from uh New York City, and it's the Geneva uh apple extension, it's an extension of Cornell, but the Apple repository is run by the United States government. It's like Noah's Ark for apples, and and they don't really like a lot of the people there don't really some of the people care about the actual apples, but the theory is is that if some new disease comes in, people don't think about it if you don't think about trees a lot, but a lot of our major trees over the past hundred years have been wiped out by introduced uh pathogens and new tree pathogens. So, you know, el Dutch Elm uh disease wiped out the majority of our elms, which were kind of the preeminent uh street tree. Um we had our chestnuts wiped out by chestnut blight. They were like the one of the primary uh you know trees of the eastern forest.
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+[35:30] You know, they they were like from sheer number standpoint were one of the largest numbers, almost completely wiped out. Uh now only young saplings grow from the dead stumps. Uh we have uh butternut canker killing our butternut trees. Uh there's just like we have we have a fungus that infects uh beech trees, another important you know, U.S. tree.
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+[35:49] So you get a thing called beech snap. We have uh introduced uh things that are killing off our our hemlocks, you know, our great conifers. So there's a we have a long uh well, I should say long, couple hundred year history of having some of our major and important uh tree species getting wiped out by uh introduced pathogens. So what they're worried about is that some pathogens gonna come in and attack all of our commercial cultivars and wipe them out. So what they do is they have thousands of varieties of different apples sitting there, and uh and you know, that way they can figure out which ones are resistant to whatever new pathogen comes in, and then they can create new apples from those.
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+[36:28] That's why they keep them. And they still haven't successfully uh insured the keeping just the uh the clonal the the you can't keep apple seeds because apples don't uh grow true to seed, but they can keep they keep the wood frozen in liquid nitrogen, but um some people say that keeping the the wood like that so that they can make uh new grass of it frozen in liquid nitrogen isn't so good because uh it can cause uh sports, so it can change slightly from the parent tree. So people still say you have to grow all the trees. Anyway, that's why it's there. It's a fantastic place to visit.
+
+[36:58] Okay, now back to Bramleys. So here's the thing. Uh I have not cooked with Bramleys uh because I've never really done um uh I haven't had a kitchen in the UK and they don't really uh make you know doom so much over over there. Uh I mean the Brits, I think they they just they just like them a lot. Um the uh first you know, Bramley comes from the UK and uh was discovered around 1809.
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+[37:20] It's called uh Bramley seedling, and what that means is that it was discovered as a seedling, it wasn't a sport or anything like that because what you used to do is you'd spray apple seeds around, like you know, 20 trees would come up, maybe one of them was good because apples, as I say, don't come true to seed. Okay, so the interesting thing about uh Bramley's triploid thing is that you need two other kinds of apple trees near it to uh have it work right. And here's why. Uh so triploid trees don't produce uh pollen. All right.
+
+[37:54] First of all, apple trees don't like to self-fertilize usually, which means you need at least two different uh apple trees near each other to get a good crop of apples, right? Triploid trees have two two two separate triple fruit things in general, right? Accord according to I don't think it keeps it current anymore, but I'm no one to talk. The fruitblog.blogspot.com. Uh triploid fruits tend to be larger, which is why a lot of people uh like them, but the trees tend to produce fewer flowers, right?
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+[38:19] And they don't typically produce uh pollen. Now, remember the apple trees can't pollinate themselves. So you need normally you need two different kinds of apple trees, right? One one will pollinate the other. You don't really care what the seeds on the inside of the apples are because you're not going to grow from the seed anyway.
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+[38:34] Anytime you're gonna reproduce the apple, you're gonna do it by grafting. Okay. Here's the thing. So you got these two apple trees. Now, uh the Bramleys is just sitting there doing nothing, doing squat.
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+[38:44] So you have to wait for the other tree to pollinate it, right? Now here's the other thing. If you want that tree to also produce apples, you need a third tree out there to give pollen to that tree because the Bramleys is shooting blanks. Right? Okay.
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+[38:59] Uh so that's that. So some other triploid trees out there, apples are Ashmade's kernel, which is my favorite uh kernel word for seed. My favorite all time, uh drink apple, John of Gold's, Mootsu Crispins, and Gravenstein. So there's a lot of triple H stuff out there. Uh now, the the other question is uh what is uh w so what other weird kind of fruit sex is there?
+
+[39:21] Wait, I got a caller? All right, so weird fruit sex after the call. Caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hello?
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+[39:28] Oh, hey, I have a question um about doing chicken. Um so I end up doing a lot of catering and I pretty unhappy with just the way that chicken turns out in large quantities being able to reheat it. Right. Um for catering setup. And I was just wondering if you had kind of any ideas about how could how I I could do something that would be delicious and at the same time, you know, somewhat easy to pull off in the kind of catering situation.
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+[40:02] Sure. How many how like how many people on average are we talking? Uh let's just say like 125. Okay, and what kind of uh you're talking like a main course chicken, so a hot? Yeah, main course hot.
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+[40:13] And what kind of finishing stuff do you usually have with you? Um with with that, um well, I have a circulator, I have and a bunch of other stuff I can bring with me, but generally we just use the grill or sometimes we have uh ovens or like fryers or stuff like that. But preference is the grill. Right. Yeah.
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+[40:32] I mean, so I mean the uh the so the the issue with chicken, right, specifically chicken and specifically main dish hot prep chicken is that um in order to crisp the skin out nicely, you need to cook the chicken for uh a while. I mean like chicken skin has to dry out and render and crisp. That's why other than deep frying, super fast techniques tend to produce a less than awesome uh surface on the exterior of the chicken, right? Uh for and the and the breast meat is just tends to get way overcooked. Right, right.
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+[41:08] Now i if you could now so there I would I would circulate the chicken uh before I would bone it unless you need to serve it on the bone because if you circulate chicken uh with the bone on it you can tend to get a lot of pinking and red around it which doesn't go away and then catering that's like death right I mean that's the I've gone through the circulating the chicken before so many times and I mean I I'm not against deboning it but I mean I prefer the thighs and I would prefer not to debone thigh. You know you know what I mean? Like I mean maybe I could just debone the breast or something. Yeah I mean the the issue is especially on thighs with that little short bone so much red in that bone that the thigh the thighs really turn pink. If you anytime you do a low temp like to me the easiest way to get around the problem of uh of cooking a bunch of stuff off at the last minute and having is is to do low temp.
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+[41:58] But low temp on thigh you're asking for a complete world of hurt if you don't depict it. You know, the other thing you could do is you could if you nitrate them, the whole thing will be pinked and it'll look cured. You know what I mean? And then people don't mind the pink so much. But I people freak out on chickens like for that.
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+[42:15] People just don't want to see uh the red the red chicken. I mean, the advantage of boning, right? Uh the disadvantage obviously is the freaking work, right? Uh the advantage of the boning is you can then use the bone scraps to make stocks and gravies without having to get anything extra. People do like eating the thigh uh the thigh meat boneless.
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+[42:38] I mean, what we used to do when we're doing large-scale chicken for hot prep is uh we would bone out the whole chicken and then roll it like in the skin. We would do the thigh thighs and uh and uh drums on the uh you know, you know, cut open, glued to the skin, and then breast meat in the center, rolled, and then we would poach those off at um, you know, uh in the circulator at like 63, 64. That cooks the breast meat in the middle and almost cooks the other meat all the way through. You can let it ride at like 57, pull it, and then throw it on the grill to crisp off the skin and take that thigh meat up a couple of extra degrees to cook it out. And that everyone always ends up liking that preparation because everyone gets a little bit of white, everyone gets a little bit of dark, and it's boneless, but it is a lot of work beforehand.
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+[43:27] The good news is that it's beforehand, so it's not work on site. If you want if you want to cook the thighs boneless, you're gonna have to go to a much higher temperature or just cook it uh much faster. I haven't done a lot of experiments. My guess is that if you cooked it at 66 and you kept the layer fairly thin or sixty seven that you would be able to uh get rid of some of the pinking as long as you cooked it relatively quickly at those temperatures, uh like in a you know, in a in a combi with it going or or something like that. But yeah, I haven't done a lot I haven't had any success with bone in thighs done low temperature.
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+[44:05] Um what is the is the issue when you do low temperature the red is that coming from I mean when you circulate it the bag is it is the marrow coming out of the bone or is it more of just the time after cooking for a long time it turns pink. I don't know both. It's both. It's both. So what happens is is when you suck a vacuum on a piece of chicken to put it in a bag, you know if you're not using zippies, uh you that vacuum will cause stuff to come out of the bone which it you know and all the vessels around there and that will put a lot of the pink in the meat around the bone and also uh the bone is going to act as an insulator.
+
+[44:40] I mean the same thing that makes it good in doing traditional cooking it insulates the meat so it doesn't overcook right in low temperature cooking because it's slower so it it kind of protects that and then you know the the redness the the how much of the red is denatured is dependent upon the rate of denaturation. So in sl in in cooking that takes longer period of time to heat through uh up to cooking temperatures you're gonna have more red than you would in a situation where those temperatures are achieved quickly. So it's kind of you're doubly shafted by it. Um I mean it can be done but like you're gonna want to either use ziploc bags or very low vacuums and you're gonna want to push the temperatures a little bit higher than you would otherwise want to push them. So you what you could do is you could do your breasts at 63 to 65.
+
+[45:29] I've never done this but then try to do the legs at like 67 to 68 and see whether or not they're still juicy up at those at those temperatures, and maybe those temperatures are high enough to wipe out the pink, even with the bones in. But if you suck a hard vacuum, you're never going to get rid of the pink. Yeah, yeah. I've run into that a couple of times now. Um that's helpful.
+
+[45:52] Yeah. I guess deep boning is probably my best option. It is a pain in the butt, but you do get lots of delicious gravy. Thank you. Alright, good luck.
+
+[46:00] Alright. Bye bye. Uh so back to weird uh weird fruit sex. So uh seedless fruits, by the way, are one of either two situations uh happen, right? Either uh you have a situation back where where you know the uh the tree is actually pollinated, but no seeds form.
+
+[46:18] I call that the shooting blanks method, right? That's called actually uh stenospermocarpi, uh right, and that's how seedless grapes work and things like that. The other one is this style is gonna like this one, parthenocarpi, which which means virgin fruit. Virgin fruit. And that's how things like bananas and certain figs work because they don't need to be pollinated for the fruit to form, which is weird, right?
+
+[46:42] So the like bananas back in the day, before they were like you know, awesome food things, have like lots of seeds in them, and they're they're fundamentally inedible until they found these ones that had parthenocarpi. And there are certain figs that are also uh parthenocarpic, they don't need any sort of pollination. But styles, you know how figs are regular like the old school figs, you know how they're done, right? Here's some weird fruit sex for you. Uh wasps go into there's a male fig tree and a female fig tree, right?
+
+[47:10] They're not on the same tree. And they uh male ones have the they're called capri figs, the male trees, and they have this thing called a sync a synchronia, I think. Sinconians, seconia, anyway. And male uh the wasps, not males, the wasps go into the fig, right? And they lay their eggs in the fig, right?
+
+[47:26] And then uh the wasps are born and they eat their way out of the fig, right? And they fly to a female tree, go into the fig, and try to get they can't get back out again, lay their eggs in, uh no, sorry, they die in there. When they die, they don't lay their eggs, I guess. They know they don't lay their eggs. They die in there, but they pollinate it while they do, and the fig dissolves the wasp on the inside so there's no wasp left.
+
+[47:48] That's kind of bizarre fruit sex, huh? You got another collar? Yes. Collar, you're on the air. More for more fruit sex after the call.
+
+[47:54] Hey, it's uh Brian in San Francisco. How's it going? Going all right, how you doing? Good. So I dehydrated my apricots, and I wanted to let you know that it is side by side with uh the ascorbic acid um on one tray of paper cups, and then I did the um uh potassium metabisulfate um for the other tray, and far and away it the potassium metabisulfite one.
+
+[48:17] Yeah, did was there any off-flavor from the sulfur? I would guess not, right? I did not taste any off-flavor, but in the bath I could definitely smell you know that rotten egg, uh sulfur sulfur smell. Right, and then it should it should volatilize anyway while it's uh dehydrating. But I should also say that the ascorbic acid that the apricots ended up tasting sour.
+
+[48:38] Really? Uh somewhat from from that ascorbic acid that was was was on the surface. Also, I should say that um I did get some browning on on the uh potassium metabisulfate. It's not foolproof. I used half a percent um by weight.
+
+[48:54] And um uh you know, I still got I still got some. So maybe I need to to to increase that. I mean, the one I was read did some reading that um they use a kind of um a smoke box where they smoke some kind of sulfur um uh dioxide, I guess it is, into the into the box um when they do it commercially which is how um uh how they make sure that uh there's no there's no browning at all. Right. Well some so yeah well because it hits everything.
+
+[49:24] Some people burn the sulfur uh some commercial people do use the dip, but they use a much heavier duty dip than than the sulfide people for home uh dehydration recommend. Uh but you know it's the same procedure they use to bleach uh palm fronds, uh you know, uh palm uh things for making Panama hats. They bleach them with uh sulfur, they burn sulfur underneath the uh underneath the palm leaves so that they can uh bleach them out for making uh Panama hats. So yeah, that's a that's an old school that's an old school technique. How is your how is your wife with the sulfur?
+
+[49:57] Any problems? She hasn't tried them yet. Uh but I I think it should be fine because she did she does okay with with most wine with wine. So um it it's just the asthma piece which was in question. Right.
+
+[50:10] Well, you know, have an inhaler nearby. She does she uh she uses an inhaler, yeah. Yeah, have an inhaler nearby. I mean, if she has most wines without a problem, I you know you're not gonna probably get a uh I mean reaction. Yeah.
+
+[50:23] Or at least not one that's uh life threatening. Yeah, uh but it was nice to do the side by side so now I now I have a uh a clearer sense of it. Cool. Tweet uh tweet a picture over at Cooking Issue so I can take a look at it if you if you can't. Yeah, yeah, I I'll I'll I'll try to do that with my with my dumb phone.
+
+[50:38] Uh but I have another question here which is um I I need a foolproof recipe for mayonnaise because I tried the immersion blinder technique that I found on the Sirius Heats website and I tried and it and it and I couldn't save it. And then I I um I tried and McEs. I looked in his uh keys to good cooking, he says add another yolk if it breaks, and I added that and I couldn't, and I and I tried it with a whisk also as well. So I I need some some advice on on um ratios and technique. Right.
+
+[51:09] Well did you hear the did you hear the episode where we uh the one with uh Chris Young on it where like my feeling is is that the main problem is when you're doing the series Eves technique of using the immersion blender without you know without any sort of premixing is the uh is the size of the vessel. So if you did you did you hear that one? So if you're making the I'll go back and listen to that. Yeah, so like the trick is okay, so I I'm I I've been contradicted by a couple of uh listeners who have you know written in and said that that they can make it normally in a large vessel like a quart container, but I was running some side by side tests using uh the immersion blender to make the mayonnaise in the immersion blender cup, which is roughly the same diameter as the bell of the immersion blender, and when you do that, you know, the egg yolk sinks to the bottom, it like s makes an emulsion and then builds very quickly and easily, right? Or and then I tried doing it in a quart container and it failed miserably.
+
+[52:05] Miserably. Miserably. And uh and I could and just like you said, I tried to fix it, miserable. Uh just awful. So when you're making it in large vessels, I mean like when I do it in large vessels, I take a whisk, I break the egg yolk, I hit it, I hit it with mustard vinegar, hit it, and then very, very slowly drizzle in the first bit of oil while I furiously mix with my hands until you see a stable emulsion forming.
+
+[52:31] Then you use a whisk? Yeah, I use a whisk. Yeah, but then but like but not anymore. Now I now you know I can I use for small quantities I do the immersion blender thing. Once you form an emulsion, then you can kind of go ape.
+
+[52:43] You know what I mean? Then it then all of a sudden nothing matters anymore. The hard part about mayonnaise is the very beginning part, getting that initial stable thing going. So my feeling is is that if you're doing the quart container situation, although some people say they do it in a core container it works, but if you're doing it in a core container uh at least with one egg yolk, uh I was unsuccessful because it mixed the egg yolk and the oil together before it had formed any kind of stable emulsion. Yeah, yeah and so then you're just hosed.
+
+[53:09] Now the the other thing is is that uh you know you want to you want to make roughly 80% oil 20% water uh base stuff. That's how it works. And McGee and I used to do uh you know as as part of uh the Curious Cook was his second book which you guys should all go on uh A B E or on Bookfinder or whatever and buy a copy of it. But you know he goes through there the experiment uh that you can actually make you know many quarts of mayonnaise out of one egg yolk. So we used to do that and we would do it with a whisk.
+
+[53:40] We would get one egg yolk we would we would hit it with a whisk and we would start uh making and then we would just make gallons of mayonnaise with the one with the one egg yolk right that but you have to keep adding water to it right because if you get too much oil in the emulsion will break and then you're shafted right so you want to try to stay but the other hand is if you don't add enough oil it's thin. So adding the oil up to around seventy around seventy five seventy to eighty percent, eighty percent right when you get there is when it gets that thick mayonnaise consistency. Anything less and it's going to be thin anything too much more and the mayonnaise is going to break. But you can always add some liquid back in, thin it down, and then build it back with more oil. Okay.
+
+[54:25] Do I need a refrigerate it? Because I don't understand how white Japanese mayonnaise is not ever in the fridge. Well, same with New Orleans mayonnaise. Uh, you know, they they guys in New Orleans keep their mayonnaise out uh all the time. The the issue usually when you're making mayonnaise you add acid to the uh egg yolk portion of it, and over time the very low water activity combined with the acid will kill whatever ails you in the mayonnaise, at least so they say.
+
+[54:50] But the issue the issue is that mayonnaise right out of the gate is not safe. The Japanese guys, coopy, they might uh actually also dope it with something to kill kill anything in it. But my impression from what I've read is that mayonnaise, properly made mayonnaise with an acidifier in it, gets safer over time, not less safe over time. So how long do you think it'll keep? Oh.
+
+[55:28] But I would make it in small quantities anyway, though. You know what I mean? Make it in small quantities anyway. Got it, got it, got it. Okay, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna try the your I'm gonna try this technique and make sure I get my ratios right.
+
+[55:38] Can I ask you another question? Is there time? Sure. Okay. Um my my I'm I make I make kefir and I make also a bread starter, but the problem with having them out all the time is that I gotta keep feeding them.
+
+[55:53] Um so I put it in the fridge to slow the um slow down the reactions or for for both of them. And I understand they're they're they're separate. But my question is, is there different kind of acid that that is released at that that temperature for the fermentation than it would be at at room temperature? Meaning I I think I read something that there's more more lactic acid at room temp and more um uh some kind of uh a a different kind of acid, maybe uh uh a scorbic or s or something. And so I'm wondering if if that's in gonna that's a consideration.
+
+[56:28] Or I need to bring it to room temp first before when I use it and just kind of store it uh when I'm not using it in the fridge, uh thoughts. Right. Well here's the deal. So uh anytime you change the either what uh something is growing on, what the starter medium is, or any time you change the growing conditions, meaning the temperature at which it's stored, or I guess even really the humidity at which it's stored, you're gonna shift which bacteria and which yeasts are growing properly in that starter, right? So if you look at any sort of uh actual fermentation, it's not one specific thing that is growing over the length of the fermentation.
+
+[57:05] Different organisms take over at different stages depending on what the pH is and depending on what the temperature is, etcetera, etc., depending on how much oxygen is dissolved. So uh the the trick is is if you want a consistent starter, you just have to do everything consistently. So yes, storing it in the fridge will change the culture, right? Uh somewhat, but when you use it, as long as you use it the same way every time and store it the same way every time, eventually you'll achieve some sort of consistency. You hope.
+
+[57:32] Another thing you can do if you want to store it, and it also changes the consistency, is a lot of people store their starters uh very much more stiff than you would ordinarily uh form a starter, and that slows down all the uh rates of reaction. It's another thing people do. They just dope it with more with more salads, more flour. Okay, got it. Alright, thanks so much.
+
+[57:51] Have a good week. You too. Alright, now on our way out, I didn't get to talk about salt risen bread this time or hickory nuts. We'll get that to that next time, I hope. But one last uh fruit sex.
+
+[58:02] My favorite fruit sex of all is vanilla. So vanilla, vanilla, the bean, the orchid, right? Vanilla is from Mexico, and in Mexico it's pollinated uh by a special bee that only grows in Mexico. And when they tried to take vanilla out of the Mexico, they could not get it to reliably produce because it will not pollinate itself. It turns out that vanilla orchids have a chastity belt on them.
+
+[58:26] And vanilla orchid, it's called the rustellum. And the deal is that vanilla orchids don't want to pollinate themselves. They want to prevent self-pollination because they don't like vanilla orchids don't appreciate incest, right? Now, uh, so no one could figure out what the hell was going on, no one could get vanilla to produce. On the island of I guess in French it's raining, but it's reunion in the US language here, right?
+
+[58:48] Which is off the coast of Madagascar, in 1841, a slave named Edmund Albius figured out how to how to well what's what's a polite word to say it, how to sex up the orchid by removing by by taking the orchid, flipping open the chastity belt, and taking it with a little blade of grass and taking his thumb and rubbing the male private parts and the female private parts with his finger, and force ancestrally pot pollinate the vanilla beans. And single-handedly, this slave uh invented the uh vanilla trade the coming out of Madagascar, coming out of reunion, single-handedly. Now, he was a slave, so he got almost no credit at all, right? They they uh outlawed slavery uh soon thereafter in the late 1840s, France did, right? And he just kind of was like left defend for himself, no money, no nothing.
+
+[59:42] And he actually got sent, he stole some jewelry because he needed it. He was sent to ten years in prison. This guy literally was the foundation of this of what was one of the biggest industries over there. They finally let him out, the Glenn of Cremacy, because they're like, Yeah, I guess you did, you know, you did give us all our livelihood. So they let him out, but he died in poverty in 1880.
+
+[1:00:01] So it turns out that uh sexing sexing an orchid doesn't necessarily lead to wealth and fame, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:00:39] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of ChefSteps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:27] If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues coming to you live from the back of Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:22] That's 718-497-2128. All your questions. Cooking, tech cooking, non-cooking, questions about Nastasha, maybe. Who knows? All welcome.
+
+[1:33] Uh joined in the studio as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. And Joe is all alone in the booth today. So lonely. Jack just got back from Bonaro, so he's uh taking it easy. I'm sure he has a lot to recover from.
+
+[1:47] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. We'll hear from it maybe next week.
+
+[1:51] Maybe Jack will call in if he's listening. Yeah? Yeah, right. What are the odds? Uh, okay.
+
+[1:55] Got some questions. Oh, by the way, amazing stuff. Before we get into the questions, the Museum of Food and Drink, Mofed uh did its inaugural explosion of the puffing gun on Sunday. Uh we did a test uh puff because uh our uh graphics team, Labor, uh Ryan and uh Wyeth, amazing fellows, are filming a Kickstarter campaign for us because we are going to kick start the uh this late summer's exhibit of the puffing gun. For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, uh back in the day, uh starting in the I guess just around the turn of uh the last century, around 1900, uh they uh developed a technique for puffing grains where you seal the grain in a in a sealed kind of gun uh and you uh heat it, and and as you heat it in the sealed container, the pressure increases dramatically, but the gr the liquid can't boil off because it's sealed inside of a container like a pressure cooker.
+
+[2:51] But instead of going up to 15 PSI, like a pressure cooker, it goes up to like 180 PSI, 200 PSI. Then you release the pressure all of a sudden and boom, all of the grain uh instantly puffs as all of the water instantly vaporizes off. And there are various machines that are uh used for this nowadays that are small, but the museum wanted to get one that was actually used, designed by Kellogg, and is still made by the Puritan Manufacturing Corporation in Omaha, Nebraska. So we got one of these uh large machines. It takes, I think 18 pounds of grain at a time, or 18 or 20 pounds of grain.
+
+[3:22] Seven feet long, big machine. Uh, and uh we fired it for the first time on Sunday and didn't really have an idea kind of of how uh kind of much of a poof there was gonna be coming out of it, but uh Nastasha unfortunately had to miss it, but I will just say that uh everyone involved had chunks of rice stuck in uh in their hair. Their rice was sprayed all over Heritage, uh all over the Heritage headquarters, like just everywhere. It was just amazing. I like let me just say, first of all, you should fund the Kickstarter when it comes up.
+
+[3:56] And second of all, no one is going to be disappointed when they come visit the puffing gun in uh outdoor venues in New York City later this fall, uh later this uh summer. It's just gonna it's just a crazy piece of equipment and uh super duper fun. Uh and uh we have a picture actually, follow MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink. Uh they now have their Twitter up at Mofad uh on Twitter, and you can see a picture of the inaugural puff. The inaugural puff.
+
+[4:22] It's a pretty amazing picture, right, Stuff? It's amazing. I mean, like you can't believe it, like stuff flying everywhere. It's like uh it's like you know, Star Wars, like you know, the Millennium Falcon going into hyperspace. That photo looks kind of like that.
+
+[4:33] Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, questions in. Alvin Schultz writes in. Uh carbonation question. How do you control the bubble size in different cocktails?
+
+[4:42] Topo chico versus champagne. Uh is it a question of PSI? Topo Chico, by the way, is a Mexican mineral water. Uh right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:50] I think so. You drink that stuff in LA? No. I was like, hell no. Hell no.
+
+[4:54] Remember, half Mexican, so she's allowed to be racist against her own kind. I guess. I guess. Not really. It's not really cool.
+
+[5:00] Right. Right? All right. So uh anyway, so uh I don't really uh I've had it, uh, but I don't remember the the bubble kind of uh quality of uh Topo Chico. Champagne is known obviously for uh, you know, the finer the champagne, the smaller the bubble size.
+
+[5:14] However, uh it's fairly simple in this respect. The bubble size of any given drink uh is directly related to the pressure of CO2 that you put into it and the temperature at which you serve it. So uh basically how fast CO2 is leaving. So the more pressure you carbonate to, the bigger the bubbles are going to be for a given liquid. The colder you serve it, or the warmer you serve it rather, the larger the bubbles are going to be for a given liquid because CO2 is going to be leaving it faster.
+
+[5:43] Okay. So if you want smaller bubbles, you carbonate to a lower PSI. Downside is it also doesn't taste as carbonated, right? And if you want larger bubbles, just carbonate to a higher PSI. Downside, sometimes you can get over carbonated.
+
+[5:57] Now uh now remember I said for a particular liquid. So uh whatever the alcohol content is is going to increase, uh is going to affect both the bubble size and how carbonated it tastes. The higher the alcohol content for given pressure, the less carbonated it's going to taste and the smaller the uh bubbles are gonna be. Um for also what is in the drink besides alcohol can vastly affect uh the bubble size. So in champagne, uh that's actually done method champagnoise, uh the product sits during a secondary fermentation on its lees, and those uh the yeast products break down over time and create uh uh the the liquid actually becomes uh such that the bubbles are smaller.
+
+[6:37] So the bubble size will be smaller for uh champagne that is aged versus champagne that is unaged. And definitely champagne, so the longer you age it, the the smaller the bubbles are gonna be. Also, they are smaller than if you were to take a base wine that hadn't been refermented and carbonated. So it's what's in the product is gonna determine the bubble size, uh, how cold it is and the pressure. Yeah?
+
+[6:58] Good? Good. All right. Uh Dave Kleinman writes in, uh, back on Father's Day. Happy Father's Day, Dave.
+
+[7:04] Question for the show over here. Uh homemade jalapeno cheddar Doritos. I have Enzorbit M, whey, and uh cheddar powder. And also he wants to know uh the best uh uh breakfast in Williamsburg or Manhattan. I don't eat breakfast out.
+
+[7:18] What about Manhattan? You ever eat breakfast out? Not really, no. No? Really don't like it.
+
+[7:22] No? Joe, you eat breakfast out? No, he's gone. Sorry, I'm here. I generally do not.
+
+[7:29] Yeah? Roberta's is supposed to have a nice brunch, right? What about brunch, Stas? You got a good brunch? No.
+
+[7:34] I eat a home for the first meal. You know what? Let me tell you what. If you're in uh Manhattan and uh it's not a sit-down thing. I mean, Barney Greengrass Sturgeon King.
+
+[7:43] You ever been there, Stas? It's Upper Manhattan. Barney Greengrass Sturgeon King, that's like old school New York. And you know, you get their omelet with the fish in it. But it's gonna go to Russ and Daughters and get like some amazing locks and bagels, get their amazing cream cheese, go out, have a picnic.
+
+[7:55] It's nice out. I mean, Robert is I haven't really have I don't think I've been here for for brunch, but they're supposedly they have a good brunch, right? Yeah. Who else? Can you think of anyone?
+
+[8:02] Uh no. I just don't eat out. I don't eat out for the morning. You don't eat it at all? I mean, unless I have to do it.
+
+[8:09] Yeah, but you have a disgusting look on your face. Usually friends choose like those brunch places that are just bad and expensive. That's your favorite combination, bad and expensive, right? Also, there's hardly ever reservation, so you're waiting forever. Yeah.
+
+[8:20] And you could already be eating. Yeah. And you're starving because it's first thing in the morning. Yeah, and you're starving, and like if you're gonna go out, you want that mimosa, but no one else at the table is drinking. Yeah.
+
+[8:31] And then you don't want to be the dick because you know they're gonna split the check and you don't want to be the dick. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you hate that, right, Stas? That's the look I I I could sense all of that just from the You can't see the look on her face, but I could sense all of that. Okay.
+
+[8:42] Back to the Doritos. Uh all right, so here's a trick. Uh I called uh Piper on the way in, uh, Piper Christianson, who's our uh kind of uh coating snack chips with powder's kind of fellow, right? He's our our guru on that. Uh he says that Doritos are actually applied not as a powder but as a slurried spray.
+
+[8:59] Like probably he's not sure whether it's an oil-based slurry or water-based slurry that they then dry out later, but they make a slurry and spray it onto the chips, which is why they get such an even coating over such a fine thing. Piper typically, when he's making slurries, um, does about 40% oil by weight with uh spice mixtures that he's gonna put in, but your results may vary. Here's what you definitely don't want to do. You don't want to add enzorbit to that thing. What you want is, in fact, the in the cheddar powder that you have is a lot of multixtrinal already, which is an anti-caking agent and what's allowed them to spray dry it, and that's gonna get in your way uh too.
+
+[9:33] But here are the basic ingredients for uh Doritos. Uh Piper did some uh research when I was on the train over here. They are uh cheese powder. They add milk powder and whey uh proteins because uh they want to be cheap and don't want to add extra cheese powder. You can just add more cheese powder if you want, or if you want it to be more kind of milky, uh, you know, without more cheesy flavor, you can add uh milk powder and uh whey protein powder.
+
+[9:57] Okay, uh whey powder, rather. Um also tomato powder if you want it red, right? And to get that tomato powder, then they add various pepper powders. Oh, you could source all this stuff by the way. Uh pepper powder.
+
+[10:08] So you want jalapeno. The problem is I couldn't find a s I I don't know if they have a source of freeze-dried jalapeno, which you could just pulse. Otherwise, you're gonna have to just get um like sliced very thin and dry them out and then pulse them and then maybe redehydrate them. Or this is why Piper says maybe incorporate them into a slurry or get other forms of powdered uh peppers, probably both sweet and uh and spicy. Uh, and then uh salt, probably a healthy chunk of salt, and uh everyone's favorite ingredient, especially uh Nastasia's MSG.
+
+[10:40] And so then you're gonna want to mix all those things together and don't add any extra bulking agent because these things are gonna be bulky enough. Now you could either take the fresh chip uh as a first thing, like uh fry it, pull it out, like shake it off a little bit, and then shake it with the powder in a core container, but you're gonna get clumps. Piper thinks the clumps are coming probably from the Malta Dextrin, uh, but it's hard to say. Or you could try spreading them out and then making the oil slurry and spraying it with a sprayer. The trick is you gotta get a sprayer that can spray powders.
+
+[11:06] I don't have one, so we don't do that. Piper has tried doing a slurry just with shaking, but it was kind of uneven coverage, so you might have to stay with powders. But stay away from the insorbit because you're not trying to absorb oil off of it. You're trying to spread a uh a powder over top of the chip. Yeah?
+
+[11:19] Mm-hmm. Okay. The other John Stewart writes in. That's he that's so he that's what he calls himself. Yeah.
+
+[11:27] The other John Stewart. The other John Stewart doesn't write us. What well the uh you know what? You know what the other John Stewart, you you are our real Jon Stewart. The other the like the what everyone else considers the real John Stewart is the other Jon Stewart for us, right?
+
+[11:40] Yeah. Right. About rice. Hammer Dave and the boys are just the boy today. Uh thank you for the popcorn advice the other week.
+
+[11:47] I ended up finding a decent used popcorn machine on Craigslist for a hundred and twenty-five bucks. Worked great for family outdoor movie night, Craigslist. Do you are you a Craigslist shopper? Yeah, I used to be. Yeah?
+
+[11:57] But you mainly for apartments or for stuff? Both. Did you sell stuff on Craigslist? Do you like those people? Uh-huh.
+
+[12:03] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, yeah, I've never been a big Craigslist guy. I should get into it though, because I was I'm a big auction guy and eBay guy.
+
+[12:09] I'm so used to eBay that I gotta get used to the Craigslist. The whole kind of like where they don't necessarily call you backstows. Like, that means they already sold it. I'm like, well, why don't they why don't they take it off the listing? Like, they just don't do that.
+
+[12:17] So I'm not into that. I'm not into that. Nastasha comes from the generation where it's just like it's well, whatever, it's free flow. Hey man, maybe they sold it, maybe they didn't. They don't want my money, they don't want my money.
+
+[12:26] You know? Anyway, whatever. Uh the question I have for you today is about sticky rice, which I cook pretty regularly and is glorious stuff. I take uh white glutinous rice, which by the way has no gluten, as we all know, uh rinse it, soak it for a couple of hours, and steam it. And by the way, that is the traditional technique.
+
+[12:43] You steam sticky rice traditionally. It's not how I cook it anymore, but that's the traditional way. Um and the pre-soak gets the kind of water in it, get it started, and the steaming, you can steam it through without any sort of agitation, and it doesn't kind of wash the awesomeness off of it, and so it stays sticky and awesome and shiny and it looks great. Anyway, yeah, it is a really good way to cook. I mean, come on, it's the way to cook sticky rice, let's be honest.
+
+[13:04] Okay. I've wondered if there is some way to do it with brown rice for both the nutty flavor and the purported health benefits. My one experiment in this regard was a miserable failure. Mixing white glutinous rice and brown rice cooking similarly, i.e., soaking and then steaming. It didn't stick, and the brown rice never cooked through.
+
+[13:19] Do you see a way, thanks, John Stewart? Okay, first of all, uh first of all, if you haven't already tried this, uh, you need to go out, and this is a separate, it has nothing to do with what you just asked. But you need to go out and buy some black sticky rice or Thai black sticky rice or whatever the black glutinous rice. There's a number of different things they call it, but it's it's it's it's a long-grain sticky rice, so it's already unique there. And they don't mill the outside, so it's got and they and the brand layer is black.
+
+[13:44] And when you cook it, it kind of turns purple, and it's it doesn't stick together, but what's awesome about it is the inside of it has that gooey texture of sticky rice, and the outside still has some like snap from the hull on the outside. And it's typically used uh for sweet recipes, but I use it all the time, or I used to use it all the time, because I just think it's awesome. I love it. Also, if you cook it, uh overcook it, dehydrate it, it puffs and leaves kind of a black puff thing with a white thing coming out of the inside and puffs extremely well. So black sticky rice, if you haven't already tried it, uh you're gonna love it.
+
+[14:16] Everyone who tries it loves it. Um very few people I know use it for its traditional uh dessert, you know, applications. But like most people I know just like they just end up loving it. Uh I know I do. Okay.
+
+[14:26] Here's the thing. Uh my rice cooking has gone way downhill uh uh you know since the past ten years, basically, because about ten years ago I was given the most butt-kicking at the time. I think there's higher levels now, Zoji Rushi uh induction neuro fuzzy uh rice cooker. And that sucker is so awesome that it can cook fairly good sticky rice just by pushing a button and uh letting it go. Uh wait, one second.
+
+[14:52] So wait, wait, wait a second. John, I'm gonna I have a collar on the air, don't want to don't want to lose them. I'm gonna finish your question. So stay tuned for rice cooking and I think for a traditional steaming solution to your problem, after this caller caller, you're on the air. Uh hey Dave and uh Nastasha and Joe, this is Salmon Queens.
+
+[15:07] How are you? Doing all right. How's Queens doing? Uh Queens is great. Um I have questions about cocktail cherries.
+
+[15:14] And I know you're I know you're allergic to them, which is a tragedy, but uh hoping you could help me out. Okay. Uh so chiefly I'm concerned with uh storage and firmness. I've I've been doing cocktail cherries every year with sour cherries from the green market, and I use a recipe from the New York Times where I heat up Marisquino liqueur and add a splash of almond extract and pour it over the pitted cherries in the jars, and I put the jars in the fridge, and two weeks later they are delicious. Is that Toby's recipe, by the way?
+
+[15:38] What's that? Is that Toby's recipe? It very well may be. I don't remember. It's just in my files.
+
+[15:43] Um But my first question is I'm assuming that I need to store it in the fridge, but I've wondered if the sugar in the liqueur or the alcohol level, because it's about sixty sixty or sixty-four proof, if that inhibits mold formation or other nastiness. I mean, can I store it outside the fridge at uh at room temperature. Huh, what's the total weight? I mean total weight of cherries for weight of alcohol? Um gosh, it's probably it's probably I would say uh about a uh about a four to uh three or four to one ratio with cherries to alcohol.
+
+[16:12] But I basically just fill up uh I fill up a uh a pint jar of uh a pint mason jar with the cherries and then just uh cover them with the alcohol. I mean the question on yeast and mold is strictly comes down to the final proof of the product. You know what I mean? If you're if you're if your product is you know uh well above uh twenty twenty twenty-five percent then you're inhibiting acetobacter you're inhibit in inhibiting um you're inhibiting I think most yeasts I mean uh this is off the top of my head um I would think although uh I'm trying to think of what all there's a bunch of reactions going for like and they have how long do they stay firm when you leave them out? Why do you want to leave them out?
+
+[16:53] Does you don't have room in your fridge? Well but yeah I'd basically just to say yeah it's a safe fridge space. I mean I uh they keep more or less indefinitely in the fridge. I have some that are two or three years old that are that are still fantastic and no signs of mold or anything. Yeah well I'll tell you this.
+
+[17:04] They haven't killed me yet I'll tell you this uh my uh my stepfather's grandfather in about 1920 uh put um cherries in high proof uh brandy uh and they aren't stored in the fridge they're stored in um they're stored in the in the basement in in uh in my stepfather's father's basement so he's now ninety three ninety four uh they're in his basement and they're still good. Do they do they can those are those are the bottom vacuum sealed or anything? No, nope. Just in a bottle. Uh in a you know in a mason jar.
+
+[17:38] And then they uh they they pull them out and there's still three left. Uh I haven't had one since I was probably, you know, 13, 12, 13. It knocked me on my butt, but at the time it was still, you know, it was still good to go. Uh another thing you might want to do if you want to experiment with extremely firm uh fleshed ones uh is um hit them with a little uh novo shape. Uh soak them for a while in uh Novo shape and calcium uh pr just prior to the alcohol soak uh and see whether or not they because I haven't I haven't run the test because you know I can't eat them.
+
+[18:16] You clip the stems but leave the stems you you leave the stems in, and they say that that is what keeps them from going mushy. I don't know if that's true or false. I mean, and now people do that just so that they have the stem in the cocktail, but I don't know. What's your experience been with that? Are you a stem on person or stem off?
+
+[18:29] I'm usually a stem off person because I I just I just throw them in, I throw them in the bottom of a Manhattan and uh, you know, the the stems get in the way and I don't want people to choke on them. But yeah, that was my next question, it was actually going to be about the firmness, because you know the Luxardo brand cherries are really just kind of meaty, and you know, the mine, well they they taste great after two weeks in the in the in the liqueur, they get kind of flabby, and I was just wondering if there was some sort of additive, you know, I could use to preserve the texture. So it's you called it uh Novo Chem? Uh Novo Shape, which is an enzyme that's being sold by uh well you can it's you could buy it now at Modernist Pantry. I think they carry it now.
+
+[19:02] Uh you know, you could test it, but it requires extra calcium to work. And you could also just try adding calcium, and that's gonna firm it up too. But the calcium uh helps the pectins um uh crosslink. Uh and when the pectins cross link, uh then they uh the thing stays firmer, it doesn't break down. Novo shape is an enzyme that uh actively cross links um uh the the stuff in the presence of calcium, so it just accelerates that.
+
+[19:27] There are uh it's called uh pectin um was it pectamethylesterase is the enzyme and it uh it there are natural ones in the in the fruit that will continue to work but you can just you know jack it with that the one issue with it is that unlike uh the pectinase enzymes that we use to break down um fruit pulp I don't know how Novo shape responds to alcohol concentration so I know that I know that the Pectanx Ultra SPL pectinase that I use was uh works fine uh in liquor I don't know about Novo Shape you know it it would be nice to run some experiments uh maybe you know I can I've just been so strapped recently I haven't ha had the chance uh but the guys at Gusmer might even have like a protocol for it because I'm pretty sure they use stuff like that uh to do the cherries. And in in in absence of that any sort of added calcium is going to help you. Okay. I think I'll I think I'll uh as soon as the uh the very brief sour cherry season starts I'll uh give it a whack myself and uh I'll I'll put the results up on cocktailions. Thank you.
+
+[20:23] Super thank you. Appreciate it. Bye bye. Oh you didn't say it was that Sam. Hey Sam.
+
+[20:30] Okay. So uh John uh Stewart back on rice. So here's the daily. So the rice cooker, first of all, if you don't already own a Zoji Rushi or equivalent like super rice cooker they're they're just freaking they're just they're just awesome. But uh so what it does is uh it just controls the temperature very accurately use a pre-measured amount of water.
+
+[20:53] So unlike steaming where you keep steaming it until it absorbs enough water for it to be perfect, you have to pre-measure the amount of water and they have a line for sticky rice and whatnot. But the good news about these rice cookers is that they can cook mixed rices fairly effectively because they just wait for everything to absorb the proper amount and then they click out. For instance, I today cooked uh white rice, regular crappy white rice, on the brown rice setting of my rice cooker this morning for like an hour and a half, and it was a little more blown out than normal, but was pretty much fine. So you might be able to get away uh just using uh like the semi-brown setting uh or even maybe the sticky rice setting, but I would try the semi-brown maybe of one of those cookers with the mixed rice and get it. The other thing is is that you're never gonna get stickiness out of the brown rice, right?
+
+[21:40] So you need to have enough sticky rice to inh to have it stick together even though the brown the brown rice is always going to be inhibiting on your stickiness, it's always gonna be ruining, it's always gonna be like kind of you know, uh uh uh a fly in your stickiness ointment, so to say. Because uh, you know, it's not gonna provide that stickiness. But the actual accurate answer to do it your traditional way is uh is pretty simple, and here it is. Ready? Do your uh do your soak, do your soak adoke, whatever you're gonna do on the sticky rice.
+
+[22:07] I unfortunately don't have times because I didn't I didn't have any sticky rice, so I couldn't run a quick test. Um do your soak, then before you steam the sticky rice, boil the uh brown rice in copious water, right? Like it's pasta. Right? Now you're gonna want to boil it for anywhere between ten and probably twenty five minutes, depending on how much more steaming time it's gonna take in the with the sticky rice.
+
+[22:33] Okay. Then after you parboil the stuff, don't let it cool down. We're not doing a retrograded parboiling thing. Uh drain it like it's pasta. Stir mix it in with your sticky rice and steam as as usual.
+
+[22:46] Now the the the major variable here that's going to to change is how much you pre-boil the brown rice before you start steaming it. I can't say. I would start if if the brown rice the last time you did it was close to being done, I would boil it for maybe eight minutes, ten minutes, somewhere in there. They they the the hard thing is is that brown like rice is gonna cook a lot faster in copious boiling water because it can absorb water a lot faster than when you're doing typical absorption methods that don't have uh a lot of extra water around. You'll know like everyone knows when you cook beans and when you cook rice that the last little bit of uh cooking is the hardest part to get, right, Stas, when you're making like a and it's because there's not as much free water around to get back into your product.
+
+[23:30] So you know it might it might only take like five minutes of a pre-boil or eight or ten, I don't know. Uh and then mix it in and steam it. That should work. What do you think? Good.
+
+[23:39] Good. All right, she's like, I don't care. All right. Uh you want to go to our first commercial break? Yes.
+
+[23:43] Coming back with cooking issues, and I'm not sure what you're doing. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched our free short course on spherification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid. A culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten. Our free course offers helpful step-by-step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct spherification.
+
+[25:06] We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And as always at Chef Steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. It's a good word, right?
+
+[25:45] Yeah, it's good. Nice. Nice. Go check out Chef Steps, our good friends. Uh yeah, those good people.
+
+[25:52] They're good people. Known them a long time. Good people. Okay, oh, by the way, uh, this weekend, uh, I went up to Riverside Drive. Uh, have some friends up there up in the hundred and fifties, you know.
+
+[26:03] You know, ever you ever been up there, Sas? Yeah. You ever you ever gone under the uh under the George Washington Bridge? There's a little red lighthouse? Yeah.
+
+[26:08] When I was a kid, I used to go there, but as a kid I didn't I didn't know any better. Uh so I went there, and the entire Riverside Park over there is nothing but okay. There are other plants. There's a lot of oaks and stuff like that. But the three things that struck me were so many mulberry trees, all completely in season right now, so many different kinds of shad slash service berry trees, all almost pretty much in season right now.
+
+[26:34] And eight boatloads of poison ivy. Like so much poison ivy, like so much poison ivy. But the good news is that the mulberry trees and uh the service berries are not in the poison ivy. So you don't need to ruin yourself to get these things. But the really sad part about it is that I when I was there, I saw no one, no one gathering uh the mulberries or the service berries.
+
+[26:59] And uh I, you know, you know, me and uh and my crew, we picked uh a couple of quarts of mulberries, uh, you know, the the red ones, and made a delicious pie. I made I cooked myself a pie on on Father's Day with mulberry pie, but delicious. And then I know I started noticing there's so many mulberry trees around uh New York. And so I've now started sampling them, uh, and it turns out they're incredibly variable in quality. Like astoundingly variable in quality.
+
+[27:27] Like some are almost inedible, they're crap. And some of them are amazing with you know, the the thing that the thing that makes a really great mulberry is a no kind of like not too musky, off-flavored, uh, although I like a little bit of musky mulberry flavor in there. Uh, but enough sweetness and also enough acidity. A lot of like when the mulberries are very ripe, they kind of lack acidity and they're kind of a little flabby and flat. So you have to taste all your mulberry trees around you, and now is the time if you live in New York, we're at the upper bounds of uh of them and taste them.
+
+[27:56] So the interesting is that uh over there there's uh here in the United States, our native mulberry is the red mulberry, Morris rubra, right? Which is can be very delicious. But the problem is that they imported these white mulberries, Morris Alba, which uh uh which the the good news about them is that uh that's what the silkworms eat when they're doing the silkworm stuff. Um but uh silkworm, as as you can tell if you've been to the United States, we don't have a giant silk production here. So that whole silkworm thing didn't take off.
+
+[28:25] But these uh these freaking white mulberry trees, now I like a white mulberry styles. They're like a little more vegetable, like they're all right. I mean, like they're no kind of they're no they're no Morris uh rubra, you know what I'm saying? Uh uh but uh the problem is is these these white mulberry freaking things uh hybridize like lunatics. They're just like they hybridize with our with our native mulberry trees, and they produce all of these like weird crosses, some of which are delicious and some of which are bad.
+
+[28:49] Uh and so you just have to go and and and also even within just straight up uh you know, red mulberries or white mulberries, the tastes are incredibly different. And then some fool has developed fruitless mulberry trees, which is like I can't even I can't even describe I can't you there are no polite terms to describe kind of what I think because oh the mulberry tree is so messy, crap on you. For like the two, three weeks a year that the mulberries are coming off the tree, it's like it's like the most often first of all, mulberry they're they're beautiful trees, so I can see why you would want one, but if you don't want the fruit, just don't park your car under it. You know what I'm saying? Jerks.
+
+[29:21] Jerks. Oh yeah, 18th year anniversary. Good. I had some leftover pie on that uh last night. What did I cook?
+
+[29:28] I cooked, I I what did I cook? I cook crab salad. My wife likes crab salads like that's one of our big like and she loves uh pineapple crab salads. I made her pineapple crab salad and some salmon. But uh Dave, did you know there used to be a mulberry tree on this very block?
+
+[29:42] Did you eat did you partake of it? I used to all of the time until they built the uh they built a parking lot for the for uh at the end, right next to Roberta's. And this would, you know, I just walk by and you could just, you know, pull down a branch, pull some berries off, and uh be on your way. Sons of bitches, when did they knock it down? It was probably two or three years ago at this point.
+
+[29:59] But when I first moved in around here and and it was a sad day when I noticed it was gone. That sucks. Yeah. Bummer. That sucks.
+
+[30:07] Uh so you know, when you're gonna cap when you're gonna get mulberries, just like don't wear clothes that uh stain, because the suckers are super fragile and they're gonna break all yeah, your hands, right? Even if you just get a couple, they're gonna stain the hell out of your hands. You're gonna look like uh like a vampire too, like you have blood all over yourself. Oh, I know. Dax, when he was eating all my his whole face was all uh coated and sprayed and mulberry juice.
+
+[30:25] But hey, it's worth it. You know what I mean? Uh so you know, there's a couple on uh up near we we had some yesterday, Stas right near uh Casimono where we went for lunch. Yeah, they that they were really good. The ones by my uh by the parking lot near my house, real spitters.
+
+[30:41] Real spitters. But I wish we still had the one from Roberta. It wasn't it wasn't a Roberta's person who knocked it down, was it? I don't think so. I think it's for the there's a parking lot for the Wonton factory that's also down the street.
+
+[30:51] I think it's uh has to do with that. Yeah. I can't imagine that the uh Robert's people would knock down the mulberries. No, that'd be crazy. That would be absolutely antithetical.
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+[31:00] Yeah, because they could they could just be making pies left and right. Yeah, exactly. Oh my god. Very local. You know what the thing is, like I'm not like a like a local forager by any means compared to people who actually are local foragers, but I mean that stuff is delicious and it's right there.
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+[31:13] It's so depressing to not see people eating it. Yeah, free food, free berries. Free food, right. I mean, you know, like if you like if you live see see the problem is that people aren't used to branching out of their normal what they what they eat, you know. So like that a tree pun?
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+[31:26] Oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't know. So like when I used to go to Arizona all the time, because my in-laws lived in Arizona. There's all this free, free citrus on the street, and no one eats it because it's sour, but it makes great lemonade. They're basically still or marmalade, and yet they're sitting there rotting because no one wants the free fruit.
+
+[31:42] But if Baldar was gonna sell you that fruit at, you know, X, you know, for whatever, then you'd be like, oh, that's great. People are dumb. Not you guys. Not listeners. People.
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+[31:52] Okay. Tom Fisher on a Kun Recon follow-up. It's probably a little strong before. I didn't mean dumb. I just meant they should break out.
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+[31:59] Don't worry. Our listeners love you. Whatever. Okay. Tom Fisher followed up with his Coon Recon remember.
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+[32:05] If you remember, Tom was having some trouble with uh some leaking of steam around the valve on his Kun Recon pressure cooker. Uh and I had a couple other people write in saying that they had had uh similar problems, that maybe there was a QC issue for a while, because mine never did that. Uh you know, mine never did that. Anyway, so uh Kunricon wrote him back. Uh, and here's what uh Jill Stroop from Coon Recon did.
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+[32:28] Uh thank you. This is to uh to Tom. Thank you for providing uh the additional information about where it was leaking and whatnot. It is normal to have a slight hissing coming from your valve as long as it is coming up to pressure and not leaking any water from the valve, your pressure cooker will work as it should. Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding Jill Stroop.
+
+[32:47] So they're not owning it. Not owning it. Not owning it. I'm sorry about that, Tom. Uh, you know, a little bit of steam.
+
+[32:55] Now remember, when we talk about steam coming out of the pressure cooker and the flavor loss in a pressure cooker because of the steam coming out, you gotta the ones that actually vent steam vent a lot of steam. They're like or shh the whole time, and you can see steam coming out. And I think that you know, small amounts of steam coming out probably won't have as much effect, but that's probably uh of little solace to you. Okay. Uh William McGee writes in uh we named an episode after him when he became a member.
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+[33:24] Yeah. Uh about dehydrators and vacuum machines. I'll do I'll do it in reverse. I'll do man, I'll do it. I recently bought an Excalibur Five Trade Dehydrator and been using it like crazy.
+
+[33:33] Good call. Excalibur is a good dehydrator. Uh dehydrating things like do you s do you like when people say herbs instead of herbs? Or do you hate that stuff? I don't like herb.
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+[33:41] You don't like herb? No. No offense to anyone out there named herb. No dude is named herb. Herb is okay.
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+[33:47] That herb's okay, but not herb that you eat. Okay, so herb the guy. He's okay. He's okay. All right.
+
+[33:53] Uh tomatoes and bananas. The bananas taste great, but the texture is leathery and it's chewy. I've read that store-bought banana chips are either freeze-dried or fried. Any way to make them crispy without frying? Yeah, freeze dry.
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+[34:04] No kidding. Anyway. My other uh let's do that first. Okay, here's the problem. Uh whenever you're drying something uh in a normal dehydrator, as it as it dehydrates, the uh the cells are gonna collapse down, and there's really almost nothing you can do about it unless you can either preserve the structure, which is done in freeze drying, uh, by freezing and then sublimating the the liquid out of it, or uh frying where the uh water is boiling out of it at at a kind of a ferocious rate and keeping the structure expanded until it's dry enough to hold its own weight afterwards.
+
+[34:38] So really like that that's the problem. There is you know, there are very few things you can do at at home to mimic that. You can, for instance, par dehydrate bananas and then explosively puff them in the Museum of Food and Drinks puffing gun. There are a bunch of uh people who have dried uh fruits and vegetables using explosive puffing techniques. It's a little bit outside the range of what you can do uh at home.
+
+[35:01] Uh another thing that's outside of the range of what you could do at home that does a similar thing is microwave vacuum dehydration. Now, uh please do not tamper with your microwave in any way. Uh it can be very, very dangerous. That said, I've done it, and I had very miserable results when I was trying to do vacuum microwave dehydration, which shows that even if you have uh, you know, a you know, fair amount of uh uh willingness to mess around with the technical aspects of things, it's not exactly uh simple to do. I'll tell you what the main problem with microwave uh vacuum dehydration is.
+
+[35:35] Uh and the principle there is that you uh put a vacuum on your product and then you put a microwave to boil the water out, but because it's under a vacuum, it doesn't boil at very high temperature so that the products don't get uh cooked and the sugars don't caramelize and it keeps its uh it's you know it it works nicely. Uh now the problem is is that if you even slightly overheat a portion of the thing with the microwave and it's under a vacuum, uh you uh can sort of carbonize the outside. Once it goes black, you get huge plasma arcs coming out of it. And so you it forms almost like a giant light bulb on the inside of your microwave and we get some awful burning, terrible smells, and not to mention the fact that you've you know uh you know you modified your microwave and you know had to hook a vacuum machine up to it. It's just a just a just a nightmare, just a real nightmare, right?
+
+[36:24] So I'd say I'd say I have no good solution for you there. Right? Yeah, sorry. Uh now the other question I have an opportunity to buy a used Vacmaster VP 215, the one with the oil based pump for a good price. What are the things that need to check out to make sure it's in good working condition?
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+[36:38] The unit's about a year old and was primarily used in a home. As always, keep up the awesome work, William McGee. Here's what you need to do. Uh, first of all, check to make sure it seals bags. If the Teflon seal uh bar across it, if the seal bar is kind of burnt, that's not such a big deal because you have to replace the Teflon tape that goes over the seal bar on a relatively regular basis anyway.
+
+[36:57] Um open the machine, run it for uh like five, ten minutes to heat up the pump and to boil out any uh contaminants that are in the oil, then stick a container of ice water uh into it, close it, and run it. If you can eventually, and when I say eventually, after like you know, several minutes, boil the ice water, then your uh then your pump's probably in pretty good shape. It can boil it off, and then you know you're doing well. Uh if it can't boil that, see if it can boil uh like cold tap water. If it can boil cold tap water, also probably doing okay.
+
+[37:28] Make sure the gauges work properly. Um other than that, right? I mean, that's those those are the things I would check right off the bat. I mean, it should sound smooth, uh, it shouldn't sound like it has any any problems. Uh other than that, that's those are the main things to check.
+
+[37:42] Also, make sure that the vacuum setting knob that allows you to change how what the preset vacuum is, make sure that it works properly, because a lot of times the vacuum gauge can go on it. Uh and by the way, when you're running those tests, you want it at maximum vacuum so you can see what it can do when it's trying to pull all the way down. Uh, you make sure that it can actually that that thing works. A lot of times that goes. Not that that's a big deal.
+
+[38:01] Uh, but check those out and see what's going on. Right? Yep. Okay. Uh we got this one in from Scott at in Guelph.
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+[38:08] But although we don't know whether he's at the University of Guelph or not. Okay. We don't know yet. We don't know. Maybe he'll tell us a day.
+
+[38:15] Hey, hammer. Uh, he wrote two different things, so I'm combining them. Hey, hammer and the nails, Jack, Joe, and whoever the heck is working today. Uh, that would make me the nails. Which which I guess sounds like it's cool, except for I'm getting hit over the head with a hammer.
+
+[38:27] Anyway. I've been inadvertently reading a lot lately about coffee. I love espresso as well as a balanced American-style cup of coffee. Uh, and then he says, Stop burning your beans, Starbucks. You're in.
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+[38:38] I agree, yeah. Yes. Well, yeah. I love Stas. Now she perks up when someone throws a similar hate down.
+
+[38:44] Yeah. Well, we all know that uh Nastasha prefers coffee that she gets on the corner out of the person who like lives in that metal box. Um no offense to the guy in the metal box. Yeah. But I know.
+
+[38:56] I just don't think he's sourcing you know the highest quality beans or really cares about them that much. No. I mean, if the quality, if the quality of the coffee mimics the quality of the buttered Kaiser roll, then you know. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:08] Okay. Kaiser rolls are so awesome though. Back, you know, like for I haven't eaten one in many years. I love Kaiserle. You like Kaiserroll?
+
+[39:14] Mm-hmm. Little swirly shape? With the poppies, right? You don't like a plain Kaiser roll, right? Yeah, okay, good.
+
+[39:19] Finally we can agree on something. All right. Uh I got a chance. Oh, sorry. There are a lot of people out there doing a lot of techniques and experimenting with different variables.
+
+[39:27] I got a chance to try cat crap coffee a couple years ago, and I really like the richness and strength of the coffee without the bitterness or harshness. Uh what he's referring to here, of course, is Copi Luwak. And it's not actually a cat, it's uh it's called a civet cat, it's a civet, it's just little creature. It's also the same creature that they uh that they uh in kind of keep in cages in uh North Africa, I think it's in North Africa, and get musk from that civet mutt that perfume thing, and uh people are up in arms. I don't really know whether it's good or bad for the animals or if it's painful.
+
+[39:56] I've known nothing about it. But uh what happens uh over in Copi Louac uh land, uh, you know, in the Pacific, there is uh these civic cats run around, eat the choicest, ripest uh coffee cherries, which by the way don't taste good. I've had coffee cherries, they don't taste anything like a cherry, so I thought I was gonna go through it. No, no, no, no. Don't do it I mean, not terrible, but like like a papery husk with like a little bit of mucilage.
+
+[40:19] Eh, whatever. So they eat the choicest, ripest ones. And the great thing about these uh civic cat things is they they they always go to the same place and they crap in the same place and they crap out a load of beans, and you know they do it pretty quick because you know they're hyped up caffeinated because there's caffeine in those uh beans as well. And I'm sure that the fruit does a similar thing to you that the that the brew does, and so I'm sure that the civic cats are like running over there to crap out their little pile of beans, and uh you the they've been uh kind of de-hulled at that point, and their intestinal system, which is somewhat short, uh does some work on the outside of it and supposedly makes these beans awesome, right? So that's the theory of the cat crab coffee.
+
+[40:56] Cat crab coffee sounds like uh cat scratch fever, like the Nugent that's Ted Nugent, right? I think it's right, Joe? That's Ted Nugent, right? Cascatch Fever? Definitely.
+
+[41:05] Yeah, okay. Uh anyway. Uh so here's my rundown to try and recreate the cat crab with non excreted coffee beans. First of all, uh, and this is just Scott like letting letting you listeners know his technique, which I've never tried before, so maybe we'll try it. Maybe one of you guys will try it.
+
+[41:20] Here's my rundown to create this with non excreted beans. First of all, you need a funnel and a coffee filter. The key is to hydrate the grounds first. You boil a kettle of water and then pour the freshly boiled water on the grounds a little bit. Uh like the ISI method uh you developed that I developed for infusion.
+
+[41:35] Uh, this allows the liquid to get intimate with the grounds and start the process of dissolving all the coffee goodness. After about five minutes, uh the kettle is cooled to the ideal temperature for coffee extraction. Slowly put slowly pour the water over the grounds, keeping the ground swirling around for a maximum extraction rate. I use three tablespoons of coffee for a regular 12 ounce coffee cup. The whole extraction takes between 30 seconds and one minute.
+
+[41:54] This is enough to get all the richness and flavor out of the coffee, but not long enough to get the acidity in the tannins. The result is a very rich brew without the harshness. It even tastes good when it has gone cold. I know you love the espresso, but this is a brew that is impressive, even if it lacks a slap in the face beauty of espresso. So uh someone give that a try.
+
+[42:09] See whether you like it. Interesting. I haven't tried I have not tried that. I do not know. I have not tried it.
+
+[42:13] Now, on the topic of sugar, I've been teaching my hospitality students. Hospitality. Uh I've teaching my hospitality students how to make hard candy stained glass sculptures. We've been assembling the structures with hot glue or molten sugar. Uh although, you know, isomalt is much easier as you know, because you're about to talk to me about my isomol.
+
+[42:29] Because isomalt is non-hygroscopic, so it doesn't suck up uh uh, you know, it doesn't suck up moisture from the atmosphere as readily as sugar does, and it also uh doesn't brown as much when you boil it, and you can re- you can when you heat it and you can reheat it and re-melt a couple times without getting all brown and breaking down the way sucrose does. Anyway, it occurred to me that a hot glue gun might be loaded with sugar to melt it without caramelizing it. We use a mix of granulated sugar and straight vinegar brought up to 310. The straight uh vinegar there, for those of you that don't do sugar work, is there to um invert a portion of the sugar uh because the acid at high temperature hydrolyzer sugar breaks the sucrose into fructose and glute glucose, that's invert, and the invert is there to prevent recrystallization of the sugar as it cools. You gotta get the amount right, otherwise it otherwise it it's too soft.
+
+[43:11] Anyway, whatever. Uh and straight uh vinegar brought to 310 to get crystal clear sugar glass without recrystallization. Since you have experience with 3D printing food, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about 3D printing sugar rather than chocolate or masa paste. Can you imagine chowing down on a Nastasha-shaped jawbreaker? Or or just breaking it.
+
+[43:29] Just breaking it. Uh so uh here's the thing. There are there's a uh a I think it's uh I forget the name of the website, uh, because I forgot to look it up. But Evil Mad Scientist, I think, or the rep rap guys, and they uh did a extruded sugar, and so what they extruded sugar, I believe, either into more sugar or into cornstarch and made a giant wood screw out of uh sugar. So, yes, sugar, molten sugar has been 3D printed for a long time, and there are tons of uh pastry arts people out there who load isomalt sticks.
+
+[44:01] They don't use sugar sticks, they use isomalt sticks uh into hot glue guns uh and then use the isomalt sticks as hot glue. Uh there's in fact a company called I think get sassy, sassy shot is the name of their uh thing that sells some a tailor-made item for this. I would use the low temperature uh glue guns and realize that uh you will probably burn yourself. Let me say this again you're gonna burn yourself, uh, and then as a secondary thing, you might want to know that you're gonna burn yourself. Also, the auto feed things don't work, so you're gonna have to use a chopstick or a stick to push the isomalt through the uh glue gun.
+
+[44:35] Duh, do not use one that was already used on glue. Get a fresh one, and also I believe use the low temperature, the low wattage ones because I've heard that the other ones, the sugar just melts out into nothingness and sprays all over and does what stuff? Burns. Yeah, burns you. Um anyway, so yes, that's possible.
+
+[44:53] Um now, um second. I just wondering, Dave, there's a whole bunch of info on sucrose syrup water concentrations versus boiling temperature. Do you have any info on boiling other sugars or sugar alcohols? What is the temperature versus concentration uh curve for fructose or dextrose or xylitol? Do any of the sugars have interesting properties other than isomalt?
+
+[45:13] Scott, well, uh yeah, the book you want to look at that has a lot of those charts is uh alternative sweeteners, edited by Lynn O'Brien uh neighbor. Uh and uh it's a lot of it's available on uh Google Books or and on Amazon to sift through, including some of the charts for things uh like isomalt and xylitol to get their um their sugar versus concentration curves, uh temperature versus concentration curves and and how soluble they are, in other words, how high a solids you can get out of it. Um and other properties, obviously uh xylitol is cooling. Uh I'm I've been interested in a while, although I haven't played with it with isomulchulose, which is a uh sucrose derivative. And uh the cool thing about that is it's it's about 50% as sweet as sugar.
+
+[45:53] It is caloric, meaning you you you actually process it in your gut, which means it doesn't set your butt on spray if you eat too much of it, which I've never actually had with isomalt. People say if you eat too much isomalt, it causes it it causes uh multiple trips to the bathroom. Let's put it that way. Uh but um apparently um isomaltulose does not uh and it's absorbed slower, which I guess some people think is good, but I do not I also think what's interesting is I don't believe it is extremely fermentable by yeasts. In other words, you might be able to use it to back sweeten beers uh after fermentation and then not have them get further fermented by the yeast, although I'm not sure.
+
+[46:32] I haven't checked up uh very much, so I'm not sure. But look into that. Okay. Uh very quickly, Mike writes in about bones. Hey, it's grilling season, so I have a question.
+
+[46:39] Many people write about how cooking meat on the bones leads to a more flavorful finished product. Is there any reason to believe this? Uh I get that bones are inherently flavorful, which is why we use them for making stock, but I don't see how a bone can transfer flavor in a grilling environment. Thanks, Mike. I agree with you.
+
+[46:53] I don't think it does. What happens with a bone, uh, I mean, when you're using it in stock, you're using it for gelatin extraction and for the meat that's stuck to it. Uh but when you're doing it in a um when you're doing a grilling environment, really it's there as a heat uh you know it modulates the heat so that you don't uh overcook it. Some people like gnawing on the bones, and so there's that, but uh I don't really think it's adding uh much uh flavor uh to it. Right?
+
+[47:16] Matt? What do you think, Stuz? Right. Yeah? All right.
+
+[47:20] Uh okay, so it looks again. Do we have any time? Are we are we I think we're good. Well, you can go on a quick quick nothing's ever quick. I know.
+
+[47:28] Nothing's ever quick. All right, I was gonna go on to a quick rant about uh Clostridium uh perfyngens and Rachel Dutton, the mic uh the microbiologist from uh Harvard, and Harold McGee, who sent me the greatest scientific paper I have ever read about salt risen bread and uh clostridium in the salt risen bread, and about this awesome uh cassava product from uh you know from Cameroon uh and Africa that I've eaten and how they all link together and how this links in with gas gr uh gangrene and uh wound uh victims in World War One, but I guess there's no time. Cooking issues. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[48:16] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:40] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:34] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Kicking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Joined today by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez with Jack Joe and Eddie in the engineering booth. How are you guys doing? Hey, you you're pretty revved up today, huh? Well, it's so freaking hot out that, like, I don't know, my body now that it's cool in the air conditioning here, has all this extra energy it was using to cool itself.
+
+[0:56] I don't know. I don't know. I made that up. Interesting. Calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[1:01] That's 7184972128. We hope to be joined soon, correct, Nastasha? With uh, you know, one of our favorite all-time people, Harold McGee, great master blaster of uh science as it relates to uh making things delicious. He is actually en route now from his hotel in Manhattan to the Heritage Radio Network Studios here in Brooklyn. So we'll see how long that takes.
+
+[1:22] It's actually a really crappy time to travel from Manhattan because they're always working on the freaking bridge. Everyone takes the bridge and they're always working on it. You guys notice that? He's taking a subway. Subway.
+
+[1:31] What's that? The traffic sucks from here to from Manhattan to here uh around noontime. Sucks. I think he's making a joke because he never goes. Oh.
+
+[1:39] Oh, I get it. Uh thanks, Mr. I don't understand people who don't go to Manhattan. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, we're traveling out here in the in greater greater Brooklyn.
+
+[1:48] Um anyway, so should we hit some questions before uh he shows up? Sure. Anything cool happening, Nastasha? No. Nothing?
+
+[1:55] Finally hit some questions. All right. I have uh I have one little message. I was at Bonaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's, and it was all crazy and everything. And we got a little message from a friend that I'm gonna play.
+
+[2:06] Yo, yo, Jeremiah Bullfrog here at Bonaroo. Hanging out with Heritage Radio. Y'all know the deal. I love myself, St. Jeremiah Bullfrog.
+
+[2:17] He's the he's the uh the king of the Miami food trucks, if I'm not mistaken. Gastropod. Gastropod. He's a good man, good man. Uh met him a number of years ago back when I used to teach at the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[2:27] Back when it was called the French Culinary Institute, before it became the International Culinary Center, right, Nastasha? Right. Yeah. Uh okay. Have uh first of all, a shout out to Jack and some information about the museum from Kate.
+
+[2:38] Hello, everyone. I have two questions, if you don't mind, but uh first I'd like to apologize because I'm still catching up on the backlog of cooking issues. So I apologize if you've covered these topics already. Please do not feel obliged to listen to our back catalog, right, Stas? Right.
+
+[2:49] Uh I realize oh wait, uh she says, uh I realize this website for MoFad, that's the Museum of Food and Drink, uh, is updated and looking good. Uh I'll check the website once in a while and hope that more is developed. I would be so excited if it happened, as I live in Brooklyn, love cooking and museums. I do work in the nonprofit sector, so I understand that it takes a tremendous amount of work to get them going. I am down to help in any way possible.
+
+[3:11] I sent an email to them with an offer to volunteer if needed, whatever it takes to get those doors open. I enjoyed the Southern Food and Beverage Museum uh so much when it was in New Orleans and was when I was in New Orleans, it's about time New York has a spot of their own. I'm sure working alongside the New York Historical Society could be fun too, as they recently had a beer exhibit. Well, good news. Uh two good news is one, Kate, we are going to have a Kickstarter launching Wednesdays?
+
+[3:34] Uh Saturday, June 20th century. Saturday? Uh Kickstarter for the Museum of Food and Drinks. So there's gonna be a lot happening and a lot uh to uh look at and a lot to look for. So please, everyone, look out.
+
+[3:45] We're going to put it on Twitter blast, but the Museum of Food and Drink Kickstarter on the Puffing Gun is going to be up within a week, I'm told by Nastash, and she knows all these sorts of things. And the second piece of good news I have for you is that Harold McGee is now in the studio. Is this the first time you've been on the show live? By phone. By phone, yeah.
+
+[4:04] By phone. In person, isn't it? In person, first time. So listen, Trumpsuckers. This is your chance to call in personal questions to Harold McGee at 718-497-2128.
+
+[4:15] That's 718497-2128. And congratulations to all you recent graduates out there. Okay. And uh and Jack, you might be interested in this before before we start up. Uh Kate also said, I just listened to the Cooking Issues episode that was recorded right after Valentine's Day.
+
+[4:31] And I can't help myself but let Jack know that I would have inquired about a potential Valentine's date. He sounds sweet, funny, and interesting. I'm flattered. Yeah? I'm also taken now, though.
+
+[4:42] Oh man, Kate, you're too late. Yeah. Too late. Well, you never know, Jack. This might mean I don't do I know your new girlfriend?
+
+[4:48] Uh no, you don't. So it's so if I can say this, you should maybe it'll be over. Maybe there's room for Kate. Maybe it won't last. I don't know.
+
+[4:55] We'll see. I don't know. I'm getting the I can't believe he's saying this shaking head look from uh Nastasha. So Harold, how are you doing? I'm doing well, except for having taken the red eye and and uh had problems with a hotel, but otherwise.
+
+[5:09] Oh what kind of what kind of problems? Uh went to one place in a reservation, went to the second place in a reservation. Damn. So up in the air. And uh by the way, he is coming here directly off of the red eyes.
+
+[5:20] So this is probably the only chance that you have. I've never like he's never been tripped up, and he's never gotten angry at anyone. So here is your here's your chance to maybe try either, because we we have with us a tired Harold McGee. Uh but thanks so much. Thanks so much uh for coming on the show.
+
+[5:29] So so uh I have some questions. Uh here's one that you might want to weigh in. Uh Barry Muncasey writes in please ad uh please address factors that contribute to food aroma. Now that's very broad, so I'm not gonna ask you to do that. Because uh, you know, that's like a topic of a whole book that you're probably working on now.
+
+[5:51] Uh but uh E.G., how can the aroma of almond chicken soup be enhanced and fill the room? And you've done some work with this in classes with just simply with fans, right? Uh yeah. Um well a bunch of different ways. Uh that's certainly one of them.
+
+[6:08] Heating the soup up so that it's um uh giving off as much vapor as possible. And it turns out that uh if you have room to do it, uh if if the soup could use a little salt, salt will actually help drive aroma out of a food and into the air because it makes the the food more polar, more uh electrically charged, and aromas don't like that, so they they get out into the air where they're more comfortable. Now, is that effect uh reach a certain saturation point, or can you take a small portion of the soup, put it in a wide vessel? Presumably you want the soup in a very wide vessel so you have maximum surface area. So I mean, could you could you punch that up and take a bit of it, put it in a super wide vessel and just salt the pejesus out of it?
+
+[6:53] I've never tried that experiment. Worth trying. Yeah, I mean if you have some extra soup lying about, you know, sacrifice a couple ladles full in a frying pan with some salt and see whether or not you can really amp up the uh well and frying pan, I mean, why not fry it? I mean, put put the heat on and and boil it. That'll get it into the air even faster than just kind of letting it evaporate.
+
+[7:14] I guess that's true, huh? I hadn't thought about that. But you might get bonding of stuff with the oil, right? No? No, I guess you maybe, I don't know.
+
+[7:20] Well, I I don't mean fry fry, I just mean boil. Boil, yeah, yeah. Boil bo boil hard, use a fan, maximize surface area, right? It's all about volatility with that stuff. Yeah.
+
+[7:30] The aroma is fairly simple. I mean it's very, very complicated in how it's integrated, but fairly simple in that it's crap that goes up into the air. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And into your nose.
+
+[7:40] Yeah, and it's to be in the in the air first. Right. And then you know, if you want to cheat, I mean, people have done things like put things in vaporizers and actually volatilize them, or you could um uh use uh ultrasonic humidifiers actually don't boil things, they create uh tiny kind of mist droplets that can carry heavier molecules with them, so you could use an ultrasonic humidifier. But on chicken almond soup, I think that's gonna be kind of a nightmare. It needs to be water thin for that to work.
+
+[8:04] Um another thing you can do, not fill a room, but uh the Japanese are very fond when they have their soups of covering their soups with a bowl on the way to the table uh with uh an inverted like a smaller bowl, and it has the effect of concentrating the head space directly above the soup. So then the person grabs the uh the lid, lifts it, and the soup wafts up into their uh nose and they get the uh the full aroma of it. And that's how the Japanese get away with having relatively underflavored broths. Boom! Boom!
+
+[8:32] Uh but the uh it's a little you know, a little little dig at the Japanese broth there. But the uh but right or no? Yeah, yeah. And and you don't get uh if you can smell it coming, then your nose is already beginning to get adapted to it, right? It's it knows what's coming, it's it's gonna say, okay, yeah, that's that's chicken almond soup.
+
+[8:53] But if you present it with no fanfare, you just open it up and there it is powerfully, it's a much more uh intense experience. An excellent point that I hadn't thought of, and the reason why we should have Harold McGee here all the time. All the time. Uh yeah, in fact, you know, it's interesting point. Uh modern cooking, when I say modern, modern American home cooking is uh all about kind of integrating the kitchen with uh with the dining experience.
+
+[9:20] And part of that is because people who wouldn't ordinarily 80 or 100 years ago be cooking, you know, people who are actually kind of running the house now, take pride in in in what they're cooking. So they want to be integrated in with their guests and have it, and so it's become part of this, you know, aroma of the kitchen is considered a positive thing. Whereas uh, you know, a hundred years ago, it would be you'd be horrified to smell what was going on in the kitchen in your house. It would be horrif horrific, a sign of you know poverty and disgust. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:47] Uh and although I definitely fall in the more modern camp, it is interesting to the idea that maybe you could have in certain circumstances a much more powerful presentation if they didn't smell it until the moment they were gonna cook. Yeah, eat rather. Yeah. Ren? Yeah.
+
+[10:01] So so maybe you want one kind of uh wafty, welcoming aroma. Uh, but that should be not something that you're actually gonna serve at the dinner. Best of both worlds. Yeah. Uh okay.
+
+[10:13] Uh Joel writes in, by the way, Joel, if you're listening, this is Joel of the uh of the heavy of the you know metal version of cooking issues, writes in uh with a rib problem, your idol Harold McGee is here. Did you ever hear his song he sang to you? No. We'll play it for you later. Uh you know, I'm sure Jack ha has it here in the archives.
+
+[10:30] Uh Joel here, a cooking Issues Personal Performance Artist. Uh, still wicked excited to hear my song being used and pumping up the heritage Radio airwaves, and still waiting to hear more about the Sears all attachment progress. The deal with it is we're just trying to figure out uh like my partners are a little worried about safety and people burning themselves is really the main issue. So we're that's what we're dealing with, right, Stas? Yes.
+
+[10:48] Yeah. Uh okay. Um I would be more than happy to be a tester and would like to report back my findings. On to my question regarding low temperature short ribs, boneless, but first here are the specifics. Forty pounds of ribs at 57 degrees Celsius, which is roughly 135 Fahrenheit for you, Fahrenheit heads out there.
+
+[11:02] I cooked them for 60 hours, uh, and the bag contents were seared, unsalted meat, reduced red wine, raw miropoix, herbs, reduced chicken stock, uh cold in the walk in for a few days. All items bagged at room temperature and vacuum sealed and placed into two separate preheated bass and covered for 60 hours and left to run for the weekend unattended. Uh results. Uh one bath of bags came out great. No sign of bacterial growth or off smell.
+
+[11:23] I ate about six ounces and I'm feeling fine, as you should, because it's safe. Um I'm also re-searing and bringing them up to temp uh the good portion of the meat. All the bags from the second bath were puffed to near explosion. I opened one bag and it smelled like death and gym socks. It's a good combo.
+
+[11:38] Uh, pretty close to what my grease trap smells like. Besides the few hundred dollars worth of meat I threw away, the only thing I can take away from this is to turn into a learning experience for myself and my team. So I need help finding out what happened. I know it's hard to figure out if both bass were at a concert temperature since I left them unattended, but both bags were plugged into the same outlet and running when I returned. Although that's no sign of anything because they can turn off and they can turn back on again, like a plug can get unkicked.
+
+[12:00] Uh by the way, in the future, never plug two circulators into the same outlet. It's possible that they'll continue running, and then it's also quite possible that you'll blow a circuit. Like, very possible you blow a circuit because uh even a 20 amp circuit, like I mean, they're not running for the same, they're not running full bore all the time, but you I've more than I've on more than three occasions seen people do that and have circuits blow. Uh, even even on a 20. You just never know, so don't do it.
+
+[12:26] Um, but both bags were plugged into the same outlet and running one hour turn. Here's my thinking. Chicken stock. It's possibly too much age on it being the culprit. Do not think that was the culprit.
+
+[12:35] Uh I kept my vap vac bags very close to my baking area in my kitchen where I use natural starters. This may have caused a reaction from uh reason for microbes to find their way into the bag. I do not think so. Uh one circulator maybe off calibration. This is possible.
+
+[12:47] You should calibrate your circuit uh circulators with ice waters. The very first batch of the new style of circulators had an issue where it was very easy to set the temperature offset incorrectly and have problems. Uh so it could be a possibility, but it's fairly unlikely because I think I know what happened. Uh red wine causing some pickling or fermentation, not the culprit. Uh cross-contamination, also not the culprit.
+
+[13:07] Uh I've heard that blanching the bags at a much higher temperature is a good safety step. I'll try that next time. Help me, help me, please. Love Joel. Uh, you have a couple of problems.
+
+[13:15] One, you put raw miropoix in the bag. Raw miropoi has a lot of air in it, and so unless you suck for a super long amount of time, there was probably a lot of residual air left in the miraclo. As you started cooking, it started heating, the air migrated out of the miracro, creating uh an uh air gap gap in your bag. You probably had a further complication that the bags were very tightly packed together. That's a lot of meat to be putting into two circulators at the same time, right?
+
+[13:39] So if they're packed tightly together and then you get any air, you have two major insulating effects in your bag. As the air puffs up, you're also taking up more space, and it's more difficult for the water to get into the center of the bags. As that happens, if your bags don't get up to bacteria-killing temperature within a couple of hours, you're gonna get lactic acid bacteria growing in the bag. The lactic acid bacteria is gonna create some awful disgusting funky smells and cause the bag to blow and puff, right? Uh and then subsequent cooking will actually probably kill those bacteria over a long period of time because they probably won't survive at those high temperatures.
+
+[14:14] However, it's too late. The meat's already ruined and the bag's already puffed. So you have a couple of things you can do. We have a phone? Oh, we have Patrick.
+
+[14:32] Patrick's going crazy with the I Got the Call. Patrick, come on in here, you crazy, crazy. Harold McGee? Here's Patrick. Our founder.
+
+[14:43] I feel like a com I feel dull-witted in this room right now. Wow. Three of you guys. Wow. Have a seat.
+
+[14:54] So uh there's another mic, Patrick. Why do you sit over here? Climb over. I won't clean, but did I interrupt the show? Poquito, poquito.
+
+[15:02] Okay, so here we go. Uh so uh you can dip them in very hot water, like 85 C simmering water to kill the bacteria on the outside. You can start the cooking in a combi oven and then throw them in to finish. Uh and just don't overcrowd them in general. If you cook the mirapoi, the uh the air cells will get ruptured as the vegetables shrink down, and you also get less puffing from the air, and you can suck a hard vacuum.
+
+[15:21] Don't be afraid, by the way, to salt your ribs before you put them in the bag because they're being cooked for a long time and you don't want a fresh steak texture on them anyhow. And also over reduce your stock, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right, you want to take should we take a quick break so we can come back with maximum Harold McGee?
+
+[15:37] Sure. Quick break. And today's break song is The Hustle by Alan Wilkes, and you are listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network.org. Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat.
+
+[16:57] The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While Underground Meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tam warts, berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit Shop.underground Food Collective.org.
+
+[17:28] Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back with Cooking Issues Calling your questions too 7184972128. That's 7184972128. So Harold and I were talking about one of your questions, and so we might as well talk about it on the air. Paul writes in on honey and fruit.
+
+[17:42] Hey, Cooking Issues Crew, just sending you a link about using honey water to stop fruit from browning. I thought it was an interesting alternative to ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C different from citric acid. Remember that people. Everyone always makes that mistake. You notice that, Harold?
+
+[17:53] No. Really? You don't make that mistake. But people well, when I'm teaching people, they're always like, I bought the, I bought the citric acid and it didn't work. I'm like, no.
+
+[18:01] It's vitamin C, it's ascorbic acid. Citric acid will prevent browning somewhat by lowering the pH, but not nearly as much as ascorbic acid, which is an actual actual antioxidant. So the video in question uh is by uh Rebecca Marsters on America's Test Kitchen, and it's available even if you don't pay. So you can go look at it. And what she does is she soaks uh slices of uh apple in uh well I don't know what she uses because I don't remember, but uh the paper relevant papers say about a 10% honey solution.
+
+[18:27] So Harold, you want to talk about this for a minute? Uh sure. Uh this came as news to both of us that that honey would do this. Um but uh a couple of things. One of the reasons I think we haven't heard more about honey is that uh the experiment suggested that there were peptides, pieces of proteins that were responsible for this.
+
+[18:47] And the people who wrote the paper in 1990 saying that honey would uh inhibit browning said they were going to follow up on that and find out which peptides were responsible. And it's been radio silence from them ever since. So it never got followed up on. And then there were was a paper in 2000 that did follow up on the honey, but said that they got really variable results depending on which honey they used. Some were good, some were not so good.
+
+[19:12] So I think my guess is if you actually did uh an ascorbic acid, honey side by side, probably ascorbic acid would be more reliable. Right. Well, I I forget which one it was. I read another paper on the various different I mean ascorbic acid is also interesting because it can actually reverse some of the some of the browning after it's already occurred. But they said also some of the honeys, I mean it's really conflicting information.
+
+[19:33] Just to be clear though, the paper from 1990 uh specifies clover honey, right? So like you think clover honey is more likely to work than other types of honey, or no? Yeah, I don't know. Don't know. Hard to say.
+
+[19:45] Good thing for you know, somebody to follow up on. Yeah. Oh, and uh by the way, honey is a and I didn't really, I mean, I've always, you know, like I don't I don't know whether I ascribe, do you ascribe to this whole uh local uh allergen honey de leo or no? Uh I don't know about that one. Where if you if you uh show up on a place and you're gonna have uh seasonal out of allergies in that place, you just pound some honey from that place and it they wipes out your seasonal allergies from the place.
+
+[20:09] I wish I'd known that two weeks ago. But I don't know whether it's true or not, but this is an often held belief, but I have no idea about the efficacy of said thing. But honey is a miracle. Uh honey syrup is an incredible foam forming agent in cocktails uh because of the extra proteins. Uh so we use that in conjunction with um uh some of our milk wash drinks at the at the rest at the bar to uh get really dense heads of foam.
+
+[20:32] Uh-huh. That was Piper's call. Piper came up with that. Are there any concentrated feeding operations for bees where like bees get overused or don't have the room to do what they need to do? Well, I mean, I I don't think that the the bees aren't I mean I wouldn't uh I I wouldn't go crying about you know overcrowding on bees.
+
+[20:48] They kind of that's how they groove, like they on overcrowding and like keeping their temperature up in the winter by being close to each other and buzzing. And also how they kill uh how they kill uh giant uh the giant hornets uh you know by gloming onto them and shaking so hard that they heat them up and kill them. So uh bees don't have the same problems with overcrowding that we do, although they will swarm out of their colony. If if if they're too crowded, they'll swarm. Uh but yes, so if you talk to natural honey producers as I have done, remember that lady who chewed our Eurofstas?
+
+[21:15] Anyway, National Honey Producer. Anyway, my point is that uh like the the big thing that they hate is it is uh feeding them sugar water to tide them over on the winter. That's what uh the honey producers are like I don't feed my bees any sugar water. You know what I mean? Ruins the honey.
+
+[21:31] Anyway, but uh so yeah, I mean, and then the other problems with bees, obviously. I mean, well uh the other problems with bees if you if you like when they're stored too close together, I don't I am not up, I haven't been up on the uh colony collapse uh papers in uh for about probably five years or something like that. But um, you know, they used to think that overcrowding and uh too close a proximity of commercial hives was part of the spread of colony collapse. Do you know anything about modern uh modern colony? Actually, you're mentioning the sugar water uh is interesting because uh the the latest I've heard is that you know it's probably lots of different things, these mites and a virus and crowding and pesticides and all that kind of thing.
+
+[22:09] But one of them is the fact that uh uh it's big become more and more common to feed bees on either sugar water or high fructose corn syrup. Woo! And and what they've found is that honey actually has lots of stuff in it that's good for bee health. And if you deprive them of that and just give them sugar water or high fructose corn syrup, they're gonna get sick. So the the idea is give them enough honey to feed themselves, and maybe things will get better.
+
+[22:38] And no allergies for the bees either. No, nothing, nothing, no problems with that. Hey, did you know I just read this, but I don't know if it's true. Certain linden flowers are irresistible to bees, but toxic to them. No.
+
+[22:48] I gotta research more. That might be crap, but I read it somewhere. But it could be crap because many things that I read are. Here's one that uh you might want to try chime in on. I have a good recommendation for where to go look at it, but uh Joe Blow, which is like kind of the best well, they're Joe Blow67, but it's a good uh it's a good what's it called?
+
+[22:59] It's a tweet, tweeter, tweeter name. Uh uh love the podcast quickie. Why does OJ taste so horrible after I brush my teeth? Well, uh the go to www.bite size with a Y, as in small, like as in bits and bites. Uh bite size science.com, the American Chemical Society, of which Harold is a member and a regular speaker for their things, they have a web series of short videos on science that people might find of interest and they did one on this.
+
+[23:34] And they say that it's the sodium laurel sulfate in toothpaste that uh that A suppresses sweetness and B washes off the phospholipid, so it suppresses sweetness and enhances your ability to taste bitter. You ever uh read anything on that? No. No. Yeah.
+
+[23:48] Interesting. I did read a paper uh by commercial uh commercial tasting thing where people who you know we're apt to brush our teeth in the morning because that's what we do, and they show up to work and they need to taste, and they actually cancel the effect of the toothpaste and get them ready for tasting by pounding several glasses of OJ. So there are some studies on that. But uh I I recommend you uh Joe Blow to BiteSizeScience.com. Interesting little website.
+
+[24:12] All right. Can I interrupt with a question? Sure. Um I'm always hypersensitive about how I eat, uh, you know, because I eat out a lot from my work and my wife's in the food world too. So um I always wonder about the effects of that on my health, and I read Michael Pollins' piece, Germs.
+
+[24:28] And uh I was wondering, I mean, should people who are worried about such things like send their feces to that place in Colorado and and uh have them do studies on it? And is it as important as DNA and all of that? Your is your poop as important as your DNA? Well, they say the microbia that lives in your stomach, you know, and that there's this new budding science. And I was just so interested that he likened that microbia to DNA in terms of importance for its effects on human health.
+
+[24:58] And I was wondering, is that true? I mean, is was that a real seminal piece that people I'm gonna go ahead and toss this one to Harold. I know it's a crazy question, but no, because uh in fact you read more and more about that in in scientific journals these days as well, and that's I think where Michael Pollan got the the lead for this. My my feeling is that we're just beginning to understand how important the the gut microbes are and what to make of them. And at the moment what we kind of know is that people in different states of health have very different communities down there.
+
+[25:36] But uh whether it's possible to change them quickly or over time by changes in diet, or whether changing them more drastically by taking little pills with lots and lots of them is a good idea, we we have no clue. I think we're we're still figuring that out. And also to say that it's as important as DNA, let me put it this way you can, for all intents and purposes, wipe out a good chunk of your uh gut microflora by intensive antibiotic regimes or like super sickness plus antibiotic regimes. I mean, I've gotten like I this it's not microflora, but I you know I I I had a a situation once where I was so cleaned out that I was lactose intolerant for like a week and a half because I had no enzymes left in my body. Uh but fact of the matter is you can re-establish those colonies.
+
+[26:23] If I were to uh supply enough radiation to you to destroy your DNA, very difficult to reconstitute. Very, very, very difficult to reconstitute, right? Yeah, so let's leave DNA at the top of the heap, but maybe microbes are right up there or just underneath. I mean there are there are plenty of things that are completely necessary but not as um critical from an everyday standpoint, right? Yeah.
+
+[26:46] You know? Yeah. We've got a caller Dave. Water, it's right up there with DNA. Hey caller you're on the air.
+
+[26:52] Hi Dave. Hell this is Johnny Kirk from Memphis, Tennessee. How are you doing? Alright, how are you doing? I'm doing good.
+
+[26:59] I was looking for some advice on the addition of moscarpone to cheesecake. I was working with three pounds of cream cheese, uh five pound uh moscarpon, and anywhere from two to three eggs per pound of cheese. And sometimes when I cut through it it it appears broken. Right. Any advice on you know maybe maltidextrin, cornstarch, flour addition and sous vide.
+
+[27:38] Who's umgestion? Yeah well I've never mean it mean like uh when you say sous vide you mean like in a in a CVAP or something like that. I've never put a cheesecake in a bag although I'm sure you could. No reason why you can't I yeah I just bag it and circulate it and for a couple hours you were doing it in the tubes right you were doing it in the tubes no I was well I was just doing it in uh three or four small bags and after um like two and a half hours pull it out and pipe it into the molds. Well, I would imagine mascarpone has a higher water content and the water in it is less bound than it would be in cream cheese, wouldn't you think so, Harold?
+
+[28:19] Yeah. Yeah. And so I would guess that it would be a lot looser under all conditions. I mean, um can you hang mass carpone to just firm it up a little bit? Uh you probably could.
+
+[28:31] I what I don't know is you know how much you'd be left with. You know, would that be an economical thing to do? If it if it only leaks. That's what I was thinking, Tapia. Uh yeah, I mean I wouldn't use I mean, if you're gonna go to Maltodextrin, I mean maltodextrin doesn't supply a lot of thickening power.
+
+[28:52] You might want to go to an actual starch. You know what I mean? Something that's uh has a little more thickening power to it. I mean multi-maltextrin is more of a bulking agent, so that when you dry something back out again, you're gonna have more bulk. I mean, I think that the addition of a starch to it to thicken it up, maybe.
+
+[29:07] I mean, you can up your egg quantity a little bit, which is I think what they do in uh in the Italian cheesecakes that are ricotta based, right? Don't they up the egg content in those things? I think that's right, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's been a long time.
+
+[29:18] Yep. Do you know right show on what they do for that? I don't. I don't, but I mean, like the classic Italian style cheesecakes are using a much looser cheese without all the, you know, they're using ri ricotta-based typically things, which are gonna be they have a grainier texture. I happen to love them.
+
+[29:33] I happen to love those uh those styles of cheesecakes, but um I don't make them myself, but they're typically much grainier, and I would imagine they're bound with a higher egg proportion. I mean, they taste like they're bound with a higher egg proportion. Yeah. So I would up your eggs, I would move to perhaps a starch, one that has a good thickening power, maybe one that doesn't require uh a complete boil to activate, so maybe something like potato that has a lot of swelling, but then it's not gonna hold as much eventually. It might break.
+
+[29:58] I don't know. I'd have to think about the starch that you're gonna use. Um but I would I would definitely add a starch to it. What do you think, Home? Yeah, no, I agree.
+
+[29:59] I also think that it's the kind of thing where you're just not gonna know for sure without trying it. Yeah, I've done uh a few test runs and uh corn starch and AP flaw just looking for any other stark congestion as well. Hey, you can you could you uh could use uh to to get around the problem of the temperature if if you're doing it sous vide, because you might not be functionalizing the starch, you might want to use a uh pre agglomerated, I mean an agglomerated pre uh cooked starch, like uh um not ultra text, but ultra spurse. Yeah, wondra. Wundra could work, that's pre-cooked, but like ultra spurse or something like that.
+
+[30:41] Uh because uh Wondra is still gonna have all of the like it's gonna have a more of a flowery note to it, 'cause it's it's flour, whereas the ultra spurse is gonna be more neutral. And you can pick I think you can pick up ultra spurse from the uh guys at uh uh monitor's pantry. Duck them. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[30:57] But give it a shot, let us know what happens. Uh with uh what's the percentage of ultrasparse? Jeez, I don't know. I think it's a lot depends on how much water you need to bind, right? Because it's the ultra the it's it's the it's uh it's the percentage of ultra spurse compared to the free water that's available in the mass carpone.
+
+[31:13] But I mean I wouldn't guess that you'd probably need to add more than a percent or two, right? I mean 'cause it if it's almost set, right, then you don't need to add that much. I mean a lot depends on how much you need to bind up. You could also just cheat. You could just cheat and set the stuff as a gel.
+
+[31:29] I mean ch cheat. You know what I mean? Like that. Yeah, you know, uh, like use like uh, I don't know, like make a f fluid gel uh or or any sort of gel, have it set up. You know, if you could do uh you could do a you could do like an iota carrageenan or a or a kappa that will melt in the in the thing, you could pipe it while it's hot, it'll set into a gel and you're done.
+
+[31:44] Very light gel. You know what I mean? And especially because there's dairy in there, you could use a very small percentage of carrageenan and have it set up pretty nicely. So you wouldn't use uh carragain and then no ultra sparse, right? I'd probably try one or the other to see how they work and uh see what the texture uh difference is, but might try that.
+
+[32:06] Okay, I appreciate you. All right, good luck. Y'all have a good day. All right, you too. You too.
+
+[32:11] All right, we have a question in from uh Brian regarding mustarda. You like mustarda? You know the uh Italian uh fruit-based kinda? Yeah, I do. Yeah, me too.
+
+[32:19] I haven't had it in a long, long time. Because no one else in my family, uh Jen likes it, my wife, but my kids you know, not big on it. You like that stuff, Sas? I mean the cherries and the pears and that kind of gelatinous uh no man's land, just like floating around. Yeah, yeah, in a sip, we like to call that like a syrup or a jelly, yeah.
+
+[32:36] Yes, yeah. Uh they make one from watermelon rinds that I really like. Um but anyway, uh Brian Rights meant to be eaten, is it? All the you don't eat all the gel, you just eat the fruit and it's I put this stuff on bread with cheese. I just eat the whole guy, the whole damn thing.
+
+[32:51] You, Harold? Yeah, yeah. It's condiment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.
+
+[32:54] Uh hello, cooking issues team. Hope you guys and gals are staying cool. Uh, we are not. It is hot as hell. Not in the studio, but it's nasty out.
+
+[33:01] Okay. After some research, I discovered that true mustarda does not contain mustard powder or mustard seed, but mustard essential oil, which they call sinape in Italy. Sinape, how do you pronounce that, Stas? Oh, thank thank you, Patrick. With the with the Italian.
+
+[33:14] Uh apparently, this is such strong stuff that only pharmacists in Italy sell it. Uh, or a shola from Studio Kitchen dot blog uh studio kitchen blog does use a rotov app to extract it from mustard oil. Do you have a source for this product or a substitute? What does Cesare or Mark say about this? I didn't have a chance to speak to them.
+
+[33:30] Did you speak to Mark about this? Nope. Thanks, good job. You got only uh whatever. I mean, we missed it.
+
+[33:36] Okay, okay. Uh uh, thanks again for your awesomeness. Brian, okay, so uh mustard essential oil is available on the internet on eBay from uh Neval Company, the company's Neval, N-I-V-A-L, Pure Essential Mustard Oil. Uh it's available on eBay. And also from Essential Depot.com in Florida, but that stuff's expensive.
+
+[33:57] Let me just say that there's two things. If you go to like uh an Indian restaurant uh Indian mart, like or you know, uh like Calustian's here in the city or dual specialty shop in the city, anyone, you can buy stuff called mustard oil. That's pressed pressed mustard oil, and that stuff it can be pungent or can not be pungent. It's all labeled as uh not for human consumption because of you know it contains what is it? It's uh something I have it here on the thing somewhere.
+
+[34:20] I can't remember. Arousic acid, yeah. A fatty acid that causes problems in mice, but apparently not in people, but we haven't gotten around to cultures have been using it for thousands of years internally, and it hasn't seemed to be a problem, but we're worried about it. So can't can't have it. Yeah.
+
+[34:39] But here's the bad news. Mustard oil in uh because I've purchased it. Mustard oil uh in Indian uh stores, or I guess Korean, uh I guess they use it in Korea as well. Um Bangladesh, a bunch of other places. Uh it's just not that strong.
+
+[34:55] It's just not, I mean, it's got some sort of mustard thing to it, but I once had a pure vial of the mustard essential oil that was given to me uh by a Japanese gent, and that stuff is ridiculous. Like two drops in like in in in like your mashed potatoes, and they're like completely mustarded up. You know what I mean? It's like it's like this stuff's crazy because it's it's uh distilled, but not distilled like rotovap style with a bunch of water left over, like distilled the oil floats up to the top. You take the supernatant on the top of the stuff, and that's your mustard essential oil, and it's almost uh it's it's some it's some like I don't know, isothytocyanate, some sort of allium sulfur derived thing of a jig.
+
+[35:35] So it distills quite well, uh, probably the same way that horseradish does, which distills like a demon. Uh but um yeah, uh I would recommend the stuff's really expensive, but it goes a long way. Buy it. I would buy it. I'm thinking now of buying it.
+
+[35:49] I don't know whether this one's any good. Have you ever bought it, Harold? No, no, I haven't. Yeah, I mean, people swear on Amazon, the best you're gonna get, because I look for a while, is mustard oil, like pressed mustard oil, not mustard essential oil. Right?
+
+[36:01] It's not the same. You have to like dump a whole boatload of that into your mustarda to uh what's your favorite kind of mustarda? You like them all? Uh I I think actually the pear, with you know, the the grit goes really nicely with the with the heat. Yeah, I think nice with the with a nice pecorino.
+
+[36:24] Yeah. Doesn't Mark say that Golden's is the best mustard ever made? I think he just said that today, yeah. Really? For real?
+
+[36:30] Did you just make that up? No, it's in my book. Uh and uh uh Marion Cunningham, who was James Beard's assistant, said that uh Hellman's is the best mayo. Why would you ever make a mayo? Nothing could ever taste better than almonds.
+
+[36:42] So it's a thing that it was uh the essay was don't make ketchup. Unless it's really better than Heinz. If it's not better than Heinz, just also serve Heinz. Well, uh anyone who's listened to the backlog here knows that Nastasha doesn't care about different brands of ketchup, which is one of the my main gripes with her, is that she doesn't see that there is possibly a difference between different brands of ketchup. And I haven't tried the new fancy stuff yet from Portland.
+
+[37:06] The fancy ketchup from Portland. However, uh Heinz, it makes a delicious ketchup. Let's just be clear on that. That in what's your opinion on Heinz ketchup? It's delicious, but there's uh somebody in San Francisco who makes a nice one too, June Taylor.
+
+[37:20] Yeah? Yeah. June June makes a nice ketchup. Yeah, yeah. It it's different.
+
+[37:24] You wouldn't mistake it for Heinz, but it's delicious. Is it ketchup in like the 1820s sense of mustard, I mean uh uh not mustard uh uh mushroom based uh ketchup or no, no, it's tomato ketchup. Tomato based, but with with more of the spices showing. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[37:39] You know, you know what I'm about to get myself in trouble for? Because I always bust Nastasha for stuff that she doesn't like. But you know what I actually uh it's not that I don't like it, but I'm not a huge fan of, or I don't care about it. Here's something I don't care about. I don't care that much about the nuances of different barbecue sauces.
+
+[37:55] I don't. I mean, I I see that there are differences, uh huh, but to me they're all fundamentally ketchup molasses and and like vinegar and sugar and stuff, right? Yeah. Am I wrong about this? No, I'd I'd agree with you.
+
+[38:09] Yeah. I care more about the base ketchup. Uh-huh. In the barbecue sauce. Yeah.
+
+[38:14] Although uh Paul Prudholm has an excellent recipe from the mid-1980s that uses a lot of ground up nuts in a barbecue sauce, it is pretty good. Ground up nuts. Yeah, really good, actually. Huh. Yeah, pretty good.
+
+[38:25] What kind of nuts? Uh, I don't remember because uh my mom used to make it all the time back in the day. I'm gonna say it was uh cons, I guess. Probably. Yeah, although he probably subbed out for Northerners when he was right.
+
+[38:36] This is back when Paul Prudholm had uh had just recently opened K-palls in in Louisiana, and he was still famous for sticking really red hot uh peppers into uh into uh liquor and calling them Cajun martinis, and back before everyone had you know blackened this, that and everything, he came out with a cookbook early on that I think was pretty influential. Uh huh. Yeah, my mom used to cook at it all the time. So I have to admit, but you know, whatever. Uh speaking of old school, Christopher Milt writes in, because I guess because of the Sears all torch that I'm working on, and wants to know uh if we've watched the old uh Julia Child episode where she goes on uh David Letterman and they don't have equipment that works, and so she has to she was gonna make a hamburger and melt the cheese with a torch, which the Sears all is great at, by the way.
+
+[39:21] Uh and instead has to make beef tartare, and David Letterman is being vicious to her the whole time. Have you seen this? No, but he's always vicious to the chefs. Yeah, I mean, but Julia Child, I mean, like this is 1987, so she was probably what in her 70s, late 70s? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:35] Yeah. And uh he's just like ripping her up and down, and she's like taking it completely as a good sport and is every bit as quick on her feet as uh Letterman is. She's like uh it's gonna wanna it's uh I kind of wish that I had met her. Uh you may you met her a couple times, right? Yeah, I did.
+
+[39:51] I did. And and had dinner with her once and felt after and this was when she was in her eighties. Uh and afterwards felt just totally inadequate because she had read, you know, ten books I hadn't read and seen ten movies that I hadn't seen, and I just couldn't keep up. She was an amazing woman. Yeah, and uh a spy during World War II.
+
+[40:12] Yeah. Interesting, interesting character. I haven't seen that movie based on it. Well, I haven't seen the movie. I don't I don't know.
+
+[40:17] Anyway. Uh Jay Matthew Miller writes in about Aroncello. Do you like Arncello? I'm not a big limoncello fan. Do you like Limoncello or orange?
+
+[40:24] Orancello being the orange-based uh variant of it? Every once in a while. It's it's sweet, and uh to my problem with it limoncello, and again I'm gonna get in trouble now. Now what is this? Is the episode where it's like well, it's it's a little bit sometimes detergent from my taste.
+
+[40:38] Anyway. They make orangello in Italy. I mean, the the with using their red oranges or blood red oranges or something? I don't know. I haven't had it over there.
+
+[40:45] I've only been to the north of Italy. They don't play that game. Yeah, they do. Uh yeah, I've I haven't been south of Rome, much to my much to my chagrin. Okay.
+
+[40:53] I've made some uh calamondan, which you might out there also know as calamansi, uh, which is sold mostly green, but is in fact orange when it ripens. Okay. I've made some calamondan orancello from calamondan peels. Um of course you didn't, because what else would you make it from? Uh grown in my yard.
+
+[41:07] I soak the peels, uh, the fruit have almost no p pith. In 190 proof ever clear for seven days, then mixed with equal parts one to one simple syrup. Uh uh, see, that's sweet. That's some sweet. The resulting product is pretty good, but a little bit stiff by itself.
+
+[41:21] Next time I'll probably add more water. Anyway, I've been storing it in some mason jars, and I get a dark orange ring where the surface of the liquid meets the glass of the mason jar just around the edge. It is really tiny but noticeable. What's going on here? Is this excess citrus oil?
+
+[41:34] Yes. Uh what can I do to prevent this from happening? Nah. On my next batch, my tree produces three times a year. I want to make enough to give his gifts, but the ring around the mason jar makes the end product less appealing.
+
+[41:45] Thanks for your help. Jay Matthew Miller. Yep, that's the oil coming out when you're diluting it, because you can uh absorb more of that stuff into alcohol than you can into water. And that's it, right, Harold? I mean, that's that's what it is.
+
+[41:56] Yeah, and thanks to all the sweetness, the density of the liquid is pretty high, and the oil is that much lighter, and so it's gonna pop up to the surface. Good call. So maybe making it a little less sweet, you could get around it. That's it, yeah. That's a good I see.
+
+[42:09] Again, I hadn't thought of that. Here's the things I thought of. Don't go and try to buy brominated vegetable oil, which is what everyone used to use back in the day to keep citrus oils in suspension and things like sodas. See what happens is they add bromine to vegetable oil. It's extreme exceedingly heavy.
+
+[42:23] It gets in close contact with the citrus oil, and the average of the uh makes them kind of float around and makes it cloudy. And that's how they made things like uh sunkist uh soda uh you know work. Uh you're not they don't use it anymore uh much. They use something that you also can't buy, which is uh sucrose diacetate uh hexoisobutyrate uh S A I B, which is a sucroester derivative, but also probably can't buy that. Here's what I suggest you do.
+
+[42:49] Uh either reduce the sweetness, um, try that. Also, put it get one of those old school, like uh who makes them Lipton sun tea things, one of those giant iced tea coolers that has a spigot at the bottom. Uh put your product into it, your entire batch. Let it sit for a week and a half or more after you've diluted it. The ring will form around the top, then drain it from the bottom.
+
+[43:13] Right? Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. See, Harold's thinking about it from an actual kind of thinking standpoint.
+
+[43:19] I'm just thinking the mechanics of what to get around it. That's that's therein lies the difference. Uh okay. Now we have a question in uh from Will about sours, uh, whiskey sours, and uh zucchini. Word to Dave, Nastasha, Jack Joe, and the new guy in the booth.
+
+[43:35] I guess that's you, Eddie. How do you? That's Eddie. Yep. Uh I've got two questions I'm hoping you can help me with.
+
+[43:39] The first is a cocktail problem. I want to pre-batch whiskey sours for the 4th of July. I like mine with egg whites, and I make designs on the phone with various bitters and eyedropper bottles and a chopstick. I use simple syrup that has gum arabic for a better mouthfeel and a strong rye for a better flavor. What I want to do is pre-mix and dilute the sour and then run in a blender with dry ice to chill for service and top of an egg white foam, decorate, and serve.
+
+[43:59] I've got a whisk that goes into a power drill for stick mixer-like effects, egg white, santhangum, uh gum arabic and nox gelatin, etc. How can I get a good foam without an ISI? I have not yet incorporated gelatin, but my efforts up to now have resulted in a foam that is too stiff to decorate well with bitters and tends to break when added to the sour. I've seen many people online suggesting that cocktail foam should be its own fully realized beverage. I mean, yeah, I don't know about that.
+
+[44:21] That uh compliments the underlying drink. That's true. In normal sours, the foam is essentially fully flavored by the drink, modified by the approximately half teaspoon of various bitters I decorate with. Do you have any suggestions on a direction to take the flavors for this foam? Looking for a direction to take my generally very tasty experimentation.
+
+[44:36] Let's hit that before we go into the next thing. One, be very careful blending dry ice into something with a blender because if you serve any chunks of dry ice to someone that they ingest, it can be extremely detrimental. That's one. Two, when you blend dry ice into a product, you will get a very light pétillon carbonation in there. And you have to make sure that that's not going to hurt the flavor of your whiskey sour.
+
+[45:01] That's two. So I, in general, I am somewhat loath to chill with uh dry ice in blenders, although I've seen plenty of people do it, but uh it just makes me very nervous uh and I'm not in. What are your thoughts on that, Harold? Um I have no experience with it, and uh, but I take your point. Yeah.
+
+[45:22] Um yeah. The other thing is remember, as you say, a normal cocktail, okay. So a normal cocktail with egg white in it, the thickening effect of the egg white is manifest uh most visually by a foam on the surface. However, the body of the entire drink is changed by the protein addition. So, you're not gonna have the same drink by blending with dry.
+
+[45:44] What you mean what you're going to be doing is making a slushy and then putting a foam on top, which could be delicious, by the way. I mean, I would use liquid nitrogen instead and just get it slushed out. Because, but but drinks that are slushy are so freaking cold that they're actually somewhat painful. Whiskey flavored drinks actually taste best when they're not so cold that they're slushed out, in my experience. Right?
+
+[46:08] You want them just when they start going clear after you've chilled in liquid nitrogen is when they start being good again. Otherwise, like uh they don't end up being balanced and anything too much more than slushy in it. It's literally painful. It's so cold. Uh, in terms of foams to put on the top, you know, um methylcel F50 makes a nice foam, but it's still pretty uh dense.
+
+[46:28] Um I have to think more about this. Uh you might it might end up being shorter for you just to just to shake the dang things, like pre-blend some egg whites and just shake it. I understand how you're trying to do something different here. I don't know what do you think, Harold? Any any feelings on the foam?
+
+[46:42] I mean, I know that should be my kind of uh uh of a of a thing. I mean, you could use ISI uh and then do like a really like a like a lighter, a lighter foam, but I mean the egg white foams are also somewhat fugitive, which is nice. And most of the foams that are made aren't they either have a very large bubble size or they're not so fugitive, but try methylcel F50 or VersaWhip under a percent. They make a really nice foam that's quite stable, and you could probably make a slushy and then literally spatula of the foam in, strike it off the top, and then uh draw a design in it. What has Piper been using recently?
+
+[47:16] Remember? I don't know. He's been making some foams recently for cocktails. He makes he he actually literally whipped egg whites, I think, and put it on top. Could do that too.
+
+[47:25] Whipped egg whites. You could take egg white powder, hydrate it with some flavors, uh, and then whip it. Uh not with alcohol though, but like whip it and then and then strike it off the top and draw with the bitters, right? That would work, right, Harold? Yeah.
+
+[47:39] Yeah. Uh second question is about grilling vegetables. I enjoy really well caramelized zucchini or brown zucchini, I guess. Unless it's well, no, probably some sugar and zucchini. Yeah.
+
+[47:48] Yeah. Yeah. Both. Both. Uh most people would say uh bordering on burnt.
+
+[47:52] The flavor that develops with a good garlic marinade and that mesquite smoke and the vegetable flavors is out of this world. Unfortunately, they end up very delicious but a bit mushy. I'm wondering if some type of calcium slash pectin treatment might help here. I'm cooling uh with a raging grill, uh, cooking with a raging grill and the coals right up under the food. It's charred to my satisfaction about two minutes if that helps.
+
+[48:10] Thanks very much for your great work. Looking forward to the Mofad puffer. Uh I don't think that I don't think you need to firm it, right? I think it's more of a water problem, right? That's what the mush is.
+
+[48:20] I would I would pardehydrate the stuff. What do you think, Harold? Uh that and maybe just chill it. You know, put put them in ice water so that when they go onto the grill, they're really cold, and so the inside will just take that much longer to heat up. Oh, so you think he wants to keep it.
+
+[48:36] See, I was thinking Monet more chewy than I mean, zucchini has too much freaking water in it, in my opinion. Yeah. I don't really mean I have issues with it. Because it's got so much water in it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[48:46] And if you're gonna char the outside in two minutes, there's no way to get the water out of the inside. Right? So you you have two choices. Either try to keep it raw on the inside or try to get rid of the water beforehand. Yeah.
+
+[48:58] Or I mean, look, you could try a calcium bath that will firm it up a little bit, but that'll make it bitier, but it won't won't change the fact that moisture is gonna migrate from the inside of the zucchini to the outside of the zucchini and ruin your crust. Well, except that's not what he's saying, right? He's saying that the crust is fine, it's just the inside's a little mushy. So uh I think maybe uh the first thing I would try, because it's very simple, is just put put the zucchini in ice water for uh half an hour before they go on the grill, see if that takes care of it. If it doesn't, then take more drastic actions.
+
+[49:34] But if it's just you know the matter of uh preventing the inside from getting quite so hot, that should take care of it. Right. Hey, what do you think about for dehydration? Do the paper towels microwave thing. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[49:49] Or or you know, I I don't know how how exactly he's presenting them, but you know, you could also cut them into slices and salt them. Uh all kinds of things. Like you do with eggplant. Yeah, yeah. Anything you would do for eggplant to get rid of moisture, you could probably do to zucchini to get rid of moisture, right?
+
+[50:07] Yeah. Okay. Adam writes in, here's a good one for you. Did you read this one yet? Adam writes in, dear Nastasha, Jack and Joe.
+
+[50:13] My question is for Dave uh and for Harold. Little did you know. Uh, what do you make of the recipe for fermented juice of mushrooms and oats in the Favican cookbook? If you haven't seen it, which I have not, the basic idea is steam salted mushrooms and grain. After cooling, combine with sourdough, uh sourdough starter overnight, seal in a jar for six months.
+
+[50:29] When you open it up, it should have a fleeting odor of peaches. That's the cookbook prose right there. Uh the fresh juice doesn't last long, so Nilson, Magnus Nelson, recommends allowing it to turn to vinegar or pasteurizing it. He describes the pasteurized product as being like soy sauce. He also stresses that anyone who attempts a recipe should not eat it until it's been analyzed by a lab to determine whether or not it is edible.
+
+[50:47] The procedure is somewhat similar to the mixed yeast bacteria fermentations of the Chinese yeast ball that McGee likes. Here you are, right here to talk about it. But I've never read such uh about such a long sourdough fermentation or one that isn't cooked afterwards. It's strange. Just what is happening and what's your opinion on the food safety?
+
+[51:01] Thanks for the thought. Well, I I looked into Sandor Katz's uh book. I mean, I think correct me when I'm wrong, I'm gonna let you just take this for a minute. But the sourdough thing is just to kickstart the fermentation to get the pH low enough so that botulism doesn't grow first, right? Isn't that what the deal is?
+
+[51:14] And after that it's gonna just gonna take over on whatever it wants to do. Yeah, and the part of it that I don't understand is why do you have to seal it? I mean, because that would uh you know remove the issue of bot botulism bacteria anyway. Well, I mean look, so the recipes for fermented mushrooms that I could get were they were all pushed under the water to encourage anaerobic stuff after the pH is dropped, right? I mean lactic acid stuff.
+
+[51:44] Yeah. Yeah. Um sauerkraut kimchi style. Right, but then why do you have to seal it? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[51:52] And and have it out of view. I mean, why not do it like uh like a sauerkraut fermentation where you can kind of check on it, see how it's going, whether you've kept everything submerged or not, that kind of thing. Uh also I I would I don't think I would ever myself want to make a dish that I had to have a lab check before I could eat it. I mean, that just sounds like legal ease. I mean, if you check the pH before you start the fermentation, then it should be everything should be copacetic.
+
+[52:20] If it's acid enough, you won't have botulism. Yeah, acid and salt, I I imagine there's salt in there as well. Yeah, but I mean again I'd have to know the levels, but I mean, but if it's tart enough, the botulism's not gonna I mean, like that's essentially how pickles work. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[52:37] You know what I mean? Non-acidified mushrooms are dangerous to to keep for long periods of time in the absence of oxygen. Yeah. Yeah. That much we know.
+
+[52:47] That's the classic thing to kill yourself with. Poorly canned uh non-acidified mushrooms. That's right. That's right. Right?
+
+[52:54] Yeah. All right. Uh really quickly. Andy writes in about ikijime and Botarga. Uh hey, Nastasha, I have a couple questions for you, Dave, and the cooking issues crew.
+
+[53:05] I wrote in a year and a half ago about ikojime spinal cord destruction, which is where you but for those of you who don't know, uh, you take fish, especially like pelagic fish, fish that swim around a lot, and when you kill them, you can increase the quality of their flesh by shoving a needle through the spinal cord to uh disrupt it. And the theory being that you you by by destroying the spinal cord, you're preventing any sort of electrical messages from going to the muscles that happen regardless of whether the brain is still present, therefore uh increasing uh the amount of ATP that remains in the muscles because it's not being used uh to respond to these errant electrical signals, and that therefore it takes longer to go into rigor mortis, and when it goes into a less strong rigor mortis, and when it comes out the flesh is firmer and better. That's in a nutshell the theory of what's going on. Okay. Uh so he tested it for us.
+
+[53:48] Um and I had always been interested why people don't do it on bluefish, and it's because uh I don't think in Japan they eat much blue fish, even though I think it's a delicious fish. Are you a blue fish fan? I love bluefish. Delicious, right? Yeah.
+
+[53:59] Uh okay. Uh I wrote about uh a Nikajime spinal cord destruction test on bluefish in Alabama. I'm heading back to Alabama next week, and we'll be trying the test again, likely on a wider range of fish as well. After my trip last year, I read somewhere that one should only use iced salt water or seawater as opposed to fresh. I was using fresh frotter from the rinsing hose at the end of the pier, and the results will c were clearly still far superior to non-uh ikijime uh EKGMA spinal cord destruction.
+
+[54:23] Any thoughts on this? I will be, of course, trying it, but I may not have the capability to do a side-by-side of salt versus fresh. Any other suggestions for tests that I could run while I'm down here? Well, the reason for salt is so that the the heart keeps pumping and that you're not putting it into shock right away so that you can keep that going. And also uh you want to keep it relatively isotonic with the fish.
+
+[54:41] So salt water is obviously the best call, but I don't really know what the effect will be. Do you have any idea? Yeah. Um I don't have any suggestions right now for other tests you should run, but please just let us know what all of your tests are because this stuff's fascinating me. And I want to know how good bluefish is after it comes out of it.
+
+[54:59] Because blue fish, everyone says it doesn't keep, but if you were to do spinal cord destruction but don't fillet it now so that the oils aren't exposed to the oxygen, could it become a fish that keeps longer? Uh-huh. I don't know. Uh my second question is about botarga, which you know is salted uh cured roe, typically from uh mullet, and what's the other one? The one that uh the what's the other one they make but target?
+
+[55:18] Oh, tuna in the Mediterranean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh in Alabama we often go uh cast netting for mullet. I'm quite interested in making my own botarga.
+
+[55:25] It's really expensive here. Really freaking expensive here. Uh Nastasha does not like botargo. Nope. Yeah.
+
+[55:33] Uh not sure if this is the right season, but I had a couple questions anyway. Uh there seems to be a fair number of recipes and techniques out there, and this seemed perhaps the best. Soak the row overnight in salt water solution, 10 grams of salt per one liter of water. By the way, the soaking is there just to leach out the blood and any sort of other strong flavors that are there. I don't think that's actually a cure step.
+
+[55:50] Yeah, and that's just what uh one percent? That's less than a tenth of a percent, right? Uh no, yeah, 10 grams per one liter, one percent. That's roughly isotonic, right? It's just to not ruin it, not blow the eggs up, but soak the stuff and get it out.
+
+[56:03] You don't want to soak it in pure water because then you'll you might blow the eggs up because of osmotic pressure. Yeah. Uh remove the solution and pat dry on paper towels, all good. Lay out fresh paper towel on a tray, liberally sprinkle with salt, okay. Place row on top and cover with more salt.
+
+[56:14] So far, so good. Uh place this in the fridge, replace the paper towels daily, add more salt, right? So the cure is taking place at low temperature. Uh after three or four days, the rows will have firmed up. Use a skewer to poke a hole and tie them with butcher's twine a long loop.
+
+[56:30] Hang the row in a cool place to dry for 10 to 14 days or longer if desired. This seems like a good technique, but I wonder if there are other better ways. I would put them uh I would put them in a curing chamber, but of course I won't have it in Alabama. I also wonder if cool, dry place would cause uh case hardening. My thought is to salt them for a few days in the fridge and put them on a rack or hang them outside in the sun to dry them dry them.
+
+[56:48] The air would be humid and hot and most likely breezy with enough salt. I'm not that worried about contamination, but should I be? Then I could take them home and put them in my curing chamber for longer drying and eventually backpack them for storage in the fridge. I would dip them in wax, that's the traditional way, not to backpack them, although backpacking will work. But dipping in wax is the traditional way.
+
+[57:04] Yeah. And pretty cool. Uh any thoughts would be appreciated. Okay, Andy, uh, I got a treat for you. Uh it's not Alabama, it's Florida.
+
+[57:11] But if you go to the Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, or simply type this into your uh browser. Solar drying of seafood products, coal and mullet row. They did a bunch of experiments uh literally on the open-air drying of mullet row to make botarga in the 70s in Florida, which is fairly similar to Alabama, and you can look at it. And your main problem is actually not going to be case hardening, although they do mention it, I think, in the paper. Your main problem is going to be that unless it's fairly covered, you see you need to increase the the the temperature of the mullet row needs to go above uh atmospheric temperature because it's humid as hell.
+
+[57:46] As soon as it goes above atmospheric temperature, which it will from the sun hitting it, right? Uh it will uh start getting water off. And so it doesn't matter how humid it is, as long as it's hotter than the outside environment, because then the vapor pressure is gonna be the however, uh it got so freaking hot. By the way, they used a word that I hadn't I didn't know. Insulation, meaning how much sun hits.
+
+[58:05] Not insulation, insulation, which is awesome. Uh but uh the mullet road that they were testing uh that had uh like a plastic covering like greenhouse that let the uh sun hit it but had screens all around it so air could waft through, 150 Fahrenheit that stuff got up to. Hot enough to cook your huevos. Uh but uh anyway, so go read that paper, and that should give you some good uh suggestions. Now, before they rip my microphone away from me and kick me off the air, since Harold McGee is here, I want to talk about Clostridium perfringens and Rachel Dutton and these papers with salt risen bread that I promised I would talk about before.
+
+[58:40] Uh so you want to give us a little uh little clue in there? Whoo. Uh why don't you get us started? Because that was a few weeks ago, and it's not in the front of my head. So here's what happened.
+
+[58:51] A number of years ago, uh on the radio show, someone asked me about salt risen bread, and I had never done it before, so I I made some as a test. Uh and salt risen bread is a an interesting, uh interesting because it's bacterially uh raised product, and in fact, it's raised with an anaerobic bacteria, Clostridium perfring, which is a um a pathogen, right? Uh and in fact, certain strains of it do really nasty things like cause gas gangrene, which was a big problem in world in the World War One. I guess and probably even after, but that's when it first became a big deal, right? Yeah.
+
+[59:25] So uh anyway, so I made it and the bread had a very distinctive taste to it that I I remembered. Went to Africa uh and tasted a cassava uh like a like a dumpling that was made from cassava. Cassava, as you may or may not know, is redded, so it's soaked for a long period and allowed to, and that's to get rid of uh toxins in it, right? But it also goes through some sort of fermentation and picks up um characteristic flavor. And when I tasted this, I said, Oh, that tastes like salt risen bread.
+
+[59:56] I wonder whether it's clusterdium uh pulsiterium, clustering porfing, same thing. And uh so Harold and I were hanging out at what was that, the World Science Universe or whatever it's called? That's right. World World Science Festival. Festival, yeah, festival.
+
+[1:00:08] And uh met up with Rachel Dutton, who is uh uh a microbiologist at Harvard studying various fermentation things. What's her actual field? What's she what does she do for a living besides help chefs with that thing? Uh well she she has a uh five-year postdoctoral fellowship essentially to kind of open up this whole subject to to academic study, which it really hasn't been open to before. Nice.
+
+[1:00:30] Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Uh who's paying for that? Uh I forget who who the fellowship is from. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:00:37] I mean, because the pro the problem is is that usually work only gets done in food when there's money behind it, which is why most food scientists suck so hard. Right. Yes. Yeah. So so well, the avenue she's taking is to uh uh study cheeses in particular, but other fermented foods as model systems for understanding um uh microbial ecosystems because these things generally, cheeses, for example, you know, each cheese has a different set of microbes that ripens it and it it tends to be four or five and it's relatively stable, and so understanding how all that works uh she feels will help us understand microbial life in general, and that's the the uh proposal that that got funded.
+
+[1:01:22] That's a good sale. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Strong.
+
+[1:01:24] Uh strong. So anyway, so she found an article showing that in fact cassava redding does indeed involve a uh Clostridium, not porfringens, uh, but um one that produces butyric acid. I mean I I can't pronounce butyrins, whatever it is. Clostridium right, yeah. Butyri something or other.
+
+[1:01:43] But anyway, it's there, so it turns out that you know this is in fact like half of how I ever accomplish anything is that I taste something different, I put it away in my memory bank, and then like years later it like something comes up. Is that how you work as well? Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
+
+[1:01:58] Um and then Harold because then I said well I wonder whether or not the Clostridium in salt risen bread is in fact not perfingize. I wonder whether it's this other one as well. And Harold found and emailed me possibly the best article uh I've ever read in my life. And I don't have it here unfortunately but it didn't get pasted into my thing but it is um from nineteen twenty three and you want to like I this most isn't that one like one of the coolest articles you ever read? It is it is they they made salt risen bread from a traditional starter standpoint and then they also made salt risen bread from uh a culture they had taken off of an injured gas gangrene patient in World War One.
+
+[1:02:41] So like some poor some poor fella who you know in the trench got hit with something developed gas gangrene which they isolated that strain and he baked bread with it. Yeah. And then ate it presumably because he said that you know he described the crumb texture and oh it's good you know kind of I think he ate it. And then then then took the bread and recultured the bacteria from the bread to prove that the spores had not because it remember folks, clostridium is spore forming. And was in fact able to culture it and inject it into guinea pigs and notice that the salt risen bread Clostridium was active but not as virulent as the one that was developed from the gas gangrene patient.
+
+[1:03:22] So it is it's fan fantastic stuff. And then specifically said it wasn't this other one because it had a different kind of fermentation. Fantastic paper. Yeah, yeah. Something you could never do today, right?
+
+[1:03:35] No, walk up and just inject that in the guinea pigs and eat eat like baked bread with uh baked bread with gas gangrene stuff. No. No. That's pretty cool, right? It was amazing.
+
+[1:03:45] Yeah. Yeah, good paper. Uh and anyway, so but then uh later work um later work, including someone who has a she has a salt risen uh bread uh uh blog, Susan Brown, they did some paper where there's been never been a case. They don't really, I think in the recent research, prove that it can't cause disease. They just show there has never been a case of disease from Clostridium perfringes and salt risen bread.
+
+[1:04:07] But what do you think about are they can would you have concerns making that in your kitchen? No, no, I've done it a couple of times and and now I'm gonna do it again because you've you know raised this whole thing uh uh for me again. But it it is fascinating for exactly that reason. You take uh foodstuffs, I mean uh milk and cornmeal and things like that, and uh kind of intentionally let it rot, right, for a day, and then make bread with that. And uh you do end up with this really interesting s some people in my own family found it off-putting, but I found it really interesting flavor.
+
+[1:04:44] Yeah, I like it. And and it rises. It's um Yeah. Well, redding is a very interesting. So redding you do it for cassava.
+
+[1:04:51] By the way, redding, literally, you just take the stuff and you throw it in a big vat of water and you let it sit for a couple of days. And in West Africa, it doesn't take very long for it to do its thing because it's hot as hell. Uh but you know what Harold has for now for several years been telling you about retted amaranth stalks. Yeah, yeah, which is how you make um stinky tofu in China. You you let vegetable kind of waste vegetable materials.
+
+[1:05:16] You or amaranth leaves are delicious, but the stalks are so tough that they're inedible. You throw them in water and just water, no salt, so you're not doing a lactic acid fermentation, and other things take over, and you end up with something that's really stinky. Uh, and then you can either serve that or you can put tofu in that same vat of stuff for a few days until it soaks up those flavors, and that's how you get stinky tofu. Has the microbiology of that been studied yet? Not to my knowledge, not in you know, English accessible materials.
+
+[1:05:50] Well, more work to do. Harold, thanks so much for coming on the air. We love having you. Anytime you're in New York, please come by and see us. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:05:58] Oh, wait, by the way, thank you for the bacon, Matt and the bacon band-aids, whoever you are. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:06:28] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out Chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:21] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Is Cookie Live from Nicolas, Florida, where I'm down here in Florida for my Uncle Luke's 100th birthday party.
+
+[1:15] How you guys all doing over there? Who I got in the studio with me today? Uh Peter and Astasia. Hey Sas, how you doing? Okay, how are you?
+
+[1:24] Alright, what'd you do? Uh we went to the beach. Yeah, which beach? Um, Westport yesterday. I mean Sunday.
+
+[1:33] Westport, Connecticut? Yeah. Westport, Connecticut. People actually go to Westport, Connecticut for vacation? It was just a day trip on Sunday.
+
+[1:42] Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well, uh I've been down here uh waiting for Montalope to turn 100, which we did today, right after the radio show. I'm going over there for his uh actual party. Uh Peter's here.
+
+[1:56] What'd you say? Peter's here. What's up, Dave? Hey Peter, how you doing? Yeah?
+
+[1:59] How much can you hear the weed whacker going on in the background? Zero. Oh, nice. The uh crazy burnouts that run this joint that I'm at in the comis uh can't seem to get the internet working, but they do have a weed whacker, a nice gas powered weed whack. So, uh Peter, why don't we talk about the state of the MoFad Kickstarter before we get into questions?
+
+[2:19] So, those of you that don't know and are listening to this, MoFAD, the Museum of Food and Drink, has a Kickstarter up now called Boom, where we're trying to get our puffing gun. Puffing gun is the old way they used to make puff cereals by heating uh grains uh up to uh well not tremendous, but high pressures and temperatures, about 180 psi. Then releasing that pressure suddenly and having all the moisture inside instantly evaporate and bang, puff the cere puff the grains very uniformly. But apparently it works on things other than grains that we're gonna try out things like penta chips, things like uh pepper corns. Um anyway, we have a Kickstarter going to try and raise the funds in a crowdsourced manner to uh go about an actual exhibit that we can travel around with.
+
+[3:02] Uh the Kickstarter now, we need about 80 grand to do it, and uh right now we're about 34 grand. So, what I need everyone to do is not just because I know a lot of our listeners have already donated, but I need uh people to go and find their friends and relatives and other people, uh like mind individuals, to come on the Kickstarter and back it. And it's not just to give away your money and you get nothing. We're talking awesome t shirts, awesome tote bags, uh parties. I mean, if you have a lot of cash jangling around in your pocket, uh, we'll make a custom cereal for you.
+
+[3:35] But the idea here is that um we want to crowdsource this to show that we have a broad level of support. So it's very important that you go and you find people to go and back us if they just want a t-shirt or anything else but uh that's my feeling about it. We have about ten days left on the Kickstarter so we need to get into high gear now after the holidays are over. Peter, what are your thoughts on it? Peter by the way Peter Kim is the uh executive director of the Museum of Food and Drink, uh the the leader uh of the project I guess.
+
+[4:07] So Peter go ahead. Yeah so first of all if you want to check out our Kickstarter you can go to boom.mofad.org. That's B O O O M dot Mofadmo F A D dot org. Uh yeah I think Dave really you did a great job encapsulating it. I mean we're really excited about this Kickstarter.
+
+[4:24] It's not just about kickstarting uh one exhibit but it's actually about kickstarting the whole museum. You know the plan for Mofad right now is to challenge the traditional museum model and actually create a mobile pop-up museum uh and this will be our first exhibit and so you know as Dave said what we're trying to do is drum up a lot of public support and I think this will open up a lot of doors for us and help us get you know propel us towards our ultimate goal of opening up a brick and mortar museum filled with exhibits like this. So we really, really need your help. I mean this is like a it's hard to overstate this but it's a labor of love. We have a lot of volunteers working on this.
+
+[5:01] Uh I was working until like 3 a.m last night woke up at five this morning got right back up to work on it. Um we're pushing hard on this because we believe in this uh we really think it's the time is right to create a food museum that you know encourages people and inspires people to think a lot about uh you know the the choices that they make and and how uh how food connects to the world around us. Right. Let me stress most museums, but most museums start, right? They start with uh one of two things either a large collection or a very rich person, right?
+
+[5:34] Very few museums are trying to start uh the way we're trying to start, which is as an idea, uh you know, and then getting the funding from uh a broad range of support that wasn't already present. And so that's why I think it's very important that everyone go out and find their find their buddies. And by the way, just because you don't live in New York City, don't think we aren't gonna bring the puffing gun to a neighborhood near you at some point. The idea is uh after we get it funded and we test out uh the the gun in New York to do a traveling road show to uh to other areas of the country. Uh we probably can't take it internationally at this point, but uh we are taking it to other parts of the country.
+
+[6:15] True or false, Peter. Uh absolutely true. And uh I wouldn't actually rule out international just yet, but uh, you know, after the puffing gun, we have just you know, you know how Dave's brain works. We've got about a million and a half ideas for the next pop-up exhibits. And uh after we create a few of these, you know, we're gonna be able to take those wherever we can drive them.
+
+[6:34] And that's that's really exciting that we're not gonna have to uh just be uh stuck in one place. Yeah, and you should go and check out our video anyway. We have an incredible cavalcade of uh awesome, smart and famous people uh chilling out for us on the uh on the video. So go go check it out. Um anyway, we'll probably harp on that a couple more times.
+
+[6:54] Yeah, so uh boom.mofad.org, B O O M dot Mofadmo F A D.org. All right, let me hit a few of the questions we have in here. Uh one, hey cookie Issues crew, I'm trying to help my pops impart Thai basil into his cooking. Fresh uh and finishing applications aren't doing the trick for him. I've read that you can freeze Thai basil and break it up before laying it under a protein that you are cooking.
+
+[7:14] He also wanted to explore getting a mortar and pestle to release the oils or infuse cooking oil with it. Can you speak to the scientific aspect of working with more delicate herbs from Maximum Flavor? Thanks so much. Billy Rose Patterson, the manager of Alamo Draft House Cinema and Yonkers. I haven't been to Yonkers in a long time.
+
+[7:28] Trive through Yonkers because it's on the way to my mom's house who lives up uh north of the city, but uh haven't stopped by the Yonkers in a long time. Peter, you uh you ever hang out in Yonkers? I've never been, always been fascinated by the name though. Well, Yonkers, we know Yonkers, aside from being kind of the first city on the on the you know, on the left-hand side as you travel north, uh up up there. Uh and the childhood home of uh one of my sculpture mentors, John Kessler.
+
+[7:53] Uh, you know, we always heard like you know, Yonkers Raceway, that's where like I think the monster trucks trucks used to go. So, like when you remember when I used to growing up listening to Monster Monster Monster Trucks. Those guys were all in Yonkers, but no one ever took me to go see them. Sad, right? Sad.
+
+[8:07] Have you ever seen a demolition derby, Dave? I have not been to a demolition derby, but I've always wanted to go to a demolition derby, and I've also always wanted to go to a figure eight racing competition. You know, figure eight racing? Mm-hmm. Yeah, where they like they race in a figure eight and they smash in the middle.
+
+[8:21] Amazing stuff. I mean, crazy. I can't believe they did it. Anyway, whatever. That's that's now we're cut.
+
+[8:25] You know, they do that now. They have figure eight racing with school buses. Were you aware of this? No. Oh my god.
+
+[8:30] Yeah. Uh sick, dude. It's like like decommissioned school buses, and uh, they probably fill the S sides of it with concrete and stuff so they can keep going for a long time. And then the school buses are going as fast as they can around this tiny figure eight track without flipping over and then occasionally smashing into each other. I mean, I can't think of much cooler than that.
+
+[8:48] Except for maybe MOFAD's puffing guns. Uh nice. Boom. All right. So the issue with Thai basil, uh, and I think you're hitting the nail on the head.
+
+[8:57] Thai basil is an extremely fragile herb. Now, Thai basil, for those of you that don't use it, is uh it's akin to uh, you know, kind of the globe Italian basil, it's more common here in the US, but it has um has i it's I I like it quite a lot. It's it's not really used for the same applications. It has a bit of an anise note, but if you're not a f uh a friend of anise flavored things, don't let that put you off. It's not like overpowering or like a pastice kind of thing, but it has a definite anise flavored note.
+
+[9:25] Uh and it's what we use at the bar for our Thai basil dacqueries. I like it uh a lot. I think it's very good, by the way, in uh drink applications. But the problem with Thai basil, uh, even as opposed to regular globe basil, which is the Italian one that we you know are more used to, uh, is extremely fragile. It goes uh it goes off very, very quickly.
+
+[9:45] And the p by that I mean it turns black and the enzymes in it are very uh very fast, almost as fast as as they are in in mint, turning the leaves kind of black. And so it's difficult to do things with them uh and have them stay fresh for as long uh as you would with uh with um something like even with regular basil, which turns black very quickly as well. So the you know, the problem is is that anything that you're gonna do with it, for instance freezing it, if you freeze tie basil, when it thaws, as soon as it's odds, it'll turn black because the freezing is going to rupture the cells in in the or rupture some of the cells with ice crystals, and then when it thaws out, polyphenol oxidase uh enzymes in it will instantly go to work and turn the sucker swampy and black. So if if you were going to do something like one one thing you can do is to um you can dr you know, I've never dried Thai basil, so I'm kind of talking out of the out of the wrong side of my body at this point. But uh I'm sure you could dry it in the same way that they dry herbs, perhaps in the microwave, I've never tried it.
+
+[10:44] Or and it's not so good, but if you were going to freeze it, you could blanch them. The problem is if you blanch them, which kills the enzymes, you definitely change the flavor and you lose a lot of that freshness. If you freeze them very quickly and then never let them thaw again and then blend them in to something that doesn't have a lot of oxygen, you might be able to get around uh get around the problem of of it browning. But it really is uh just a kind of a delicate um a delicate herb that kind of needs a little bit of care to work. Now you can cook with it, it's fine.
+
+[11:15] But if you want that fresh, I mean it's great. I shouldn't say fine, it's great. You ever cook with it or Peter, you ever cook with Thai basil? No. All the time, I love it.
+
+[11:24] Yeah, right. I mean you can you can cook with it, like you can cook with any basil, but if you want that fresh flavor, it's very hard to do anything to that's why we go through all the trouble of freezing with liquid nitrogen and and you know, blending it with alcohol, which kills uh kills the polyphenol oxidase. Now, like I say, if you freeze it, then if you're going to um if you're going to uh blend it into something of sauce and water pester petrol and oil, you might want to sprinkle a little ascorbic acid on it before you do that to try and inhibit the browning that's going to happen almost instantly as it thaws out. Uh or you you might try uh muddling it with a little bit of super high proof ethanol to keep it green uh before you uh incorporate the oil and whatnot. But just remember, if it freezes and then thaws, as soon as it thaws out, it's gonna turn black, unless you prevent it by blanching, which kills the not kills the fresh flavor, but alters it, or um or hit it with some sort of antioxidant, or something that uh inactivates the enzymes like high proof ethanol, something like that.
+
+[12:21] Does that make sense, guys? Yep. Yeah. Alright, cool. Uh Dave Nastasha Jo Jack et al.
+
+[12:27] which I guess includes Peter today. Uh I purchased a small deep fryer late last year and regrettably haven't used it that much. It is regrettable to have a deep fat fryer and not use it. Although I will say that small deep fryers are nowhere near as awesome. I mean, like they're not even in the same league of awesome as uh as commercial deep fat fryers.
+
+[12:45] However, the summer after I graduated from college, I did only three things. I watched daytime TV, including Regis and Kelly, all the way through up to General Hospital soap operas. I watched the whole the whole thing. Uh and uh worked on my 76 Bonnetville, which required a lot of Bonjour work and spray painting it gold and whatnot. And I uh deep fried uh French fries and uh habanero chili rheenos in my uh little deep deep fryer fried addicts.
+
+[13:13] So they do work. Anyway, uh I purchased a small deep fryer late last year and regretably haven't used it that much. Four months ago I left the oil in it last time I used it after skimming out the solids. And you gotta be careful, you want to cover it so you you know light doesn't get to it. And um the problem, one of the problems with small fryers and storing oil in them for long periods of time, is that they have a a poor surface area to volume ratio, and so it's the surface area of oxygen uh transfer to volume that's gonna uh determine how fast uh the oil oxidizes and goes ran starting.
+
+[13:43] So they're not really ideal in that sense because they have a fairly large surface area. Anyways, uh okay, so after skimming the solids, three months ago I spooned in some solidified bacon fat, thinking it was a clever way to store it, uh, and I would deep fry something and get a great smoky bacon flavor in the next week or so. Three months later, the bacon fat and oil are still in the deep fryer. Question. Is it okay to fry chicken with this oil bacon fat combo for the fourth of July or not?
+
+[14:05] Well, I'm a little late to help you on that, but anyway. Uh I understand possible rancidity of bacon bits from baking grease could create a flavor issue, but if I bring it up to three fifty, are there any potential health issues with trying some fried bread uh to check for rancidity. Uh thanks, Tommy Bishop, YFL VA. Uh I don't uh Y Phil VA I don't think it's uh I c I can't think of any major health problems. But the issue with bacon grease in general, I mean I save it, but it goes off pretty quickly because remember there's a lot of salt in uh bacon and the salt is uh you know it's really going to um increase the rate, especially because bacon grease is usually heated to a very high temperature when you're cooking the bacon so you're starting to break down the fats there.
+
+[14:44] You have salt in it which is starting to break down the fats. And so in general bacon grease isn't your most stable of uh fats. Uh that said, you know it's not going to kill you to eat it. It's just a question of is it still going to taste good, right? What do you think guys think that's uh anyone anyone any thoughts?
+
+[15:04] Okay. So uh but uh your question is already done this or hasn't done it so what do you say? I guess we could just ask the person who asked the question because they probably tried it. Well but again Tom you know Tommy is uh is pointing out my favorite test for frying oils is putting a a cube of bread into them, frying them and then tasting the bread to see whether or not it has a uh you know whether it tastes like crap because bread's very neutral bread absorbs a lot of oil and then you can get a real feel for kind of what's going on with the uh with the bread. So that's a good way of doing it.
+
+[15:40] Uh but uh yeah it's not I mean it's not gonna kill you. I mean there are probably people who say that the the you know the free fatty acids aren't good for it and all that other stuff, but I don't know that I'm a real believer in it. I haven't seen any data that says that you know you're gonna substantially shorten your lifespan by uh having a little bit of uh bacon grease that's gone a little bit over the hill. You know? Hey Dave, what's the what's the lifespan of the oil in your massive fryer?
+
+[16:05] Very long. So if you so uh oil, there's a couple of things like so. I have a 35-pound deep fryer that takes about six gallons of oil, uh about five and a half, six gallons of oil. And uh it's stored very in a very tall format. Uh and additionally, you know, because deep fryers are tall and have a fairly small surface area for how deep they are.
+
+[16:25] And the other thing about uh, and so that right there for storage is uh kind of ideal. The other great thing about um commercial deep fryers that use the tubes called tube fryers, is that uh the oil at the bottom stays relatively cool, and uh also particles that come off of your food as you're frying sink to the bottom into relatively cooler oil instead of in traditional stovetop frying where the particles hit the bottom of the pan, which is the hottest part of the pan. Right. In addition, the surface area of heating in a tube fryer is so high that uh it doesn't overheat the oil too much because um it has such a large surface area for transfer. So it keeps the oil at a much more stable temperature, and stability of temperature is much better for uh for oil stability over time.
+
+[17:11] You don't overheat it to get to the temperature you're gonna cook, and therefore that greatly enhances the uh the length of time the oil lasts. It has a smaller surface area on top, so that greatly increases the length of time that it will last. And uh the burnt particles are kept at the bottom while you're fine, which greatly increases. So, all in all, uh just much, much, much, much, much, much better. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:35] Yeah. Um okay. So uh hey Dave Nastasha et al. from Timothy. Uh I came across this video of a guy making crepes in Kowloon Walled City.
+
+[17:47] I think it's pronounced Kowloon, it's in Hong Kong. Uh any idea what's going on? It's a YouTube video. Now I had no idea what Kowloon walled city is. Have you guys heard of this before I looked it up.
+
+[17:56] Have you guys heard of this? No. No. No. So Kowloon Wall City when um when the uh the British uh I don't really even know how they uh got Hong Kong in the first place through some form of coercion or whatnot, but when they gained control of Hong Kong uh in the early uh in the early 1800s or early mid eighteen hundreds, uh China maintained control of certain areas of Hong Kong including uh parts of uh Towhoon where they had a fort so they could see what the Brits were gonna were gonna do.
+
+[18:27] Uh in the late 1800s when the Brits uh I guess decided to uh alter the deal as Darth Vader would say uh they uh they took over control of Kowloon uh the walled city of the fort and then didn't do much with it and it stayed relatively lawless. It also stayed relatively unpopulated until after World War II uh and uh the fall of uh mainland China it also had it had a big influx during the Japanese occupation in um in World War II and then after World War II after the you know the the uh communist takeover of mainland China it just got swamped with people and still maintained no laws so until the and then it just got kind of crazier and crazier until at one point in this little six acre place 30,000 people were living with no law and like literally no law except the triads, which you know are the the the kind of their mafia over there. And so uh it was just insane. If you see pictures of it, it's like no light made it down into the bottom of it because people would just build kind of illegal walkways, people would bring in illegal electricity. It was so crazy.
+
+[19:33] It was like free for all, like Mad Max kind of thing. What do you say? Or like five points. Yeah, right. Kind of like five kind of like five points, and much like five points, which was uh incredibly vilified in the press at the time, uh, the vast majority of people who uh five points was the big gang area in uh downtown in New York uh in the uh eighteen hundreds, much like that, uh the majority of people who lived there were just living kind of normal lives and not you know, and just trying to to you know make a living and do whatever they needed to do.
+
+[20:06] Um so anyways, the um I need to move again because now there is a leaf blower. Uh so anyways, what what happened uh is that they kicked everyone out uh and then they tore the whole thing down. The same thing they did to the five points, actually. So it's it's almost an exact analog to five points. But there's a uh German documentary of it that was done prior to when they tore it down in the nineties and they evicted everyone, I guess, in the late eighties.
+
+[20:34] And in that video, uh you can see people just going about their daily business, like making noodles and making the what it isn't really crepes, which is what's pointed out in the video, but uh spring roll wrappers. And spring roll wrappers have a very interesting manufacturer technique because what you do instead of making a standard crepe dough, so in a standard crepe dough, you do a very high hydration dough, uh like one to one hydration of uh liquid to flour, you let it rest and hydrate and let all the air bubbles come out, and then you pour it on a very hot griddle uh with oil. You put oil down the griddle, you pour it down a very hot griddle, and you use a little kind of what looks like a spatula rake. I forget what the term in Fran French is, it's like it's like rap play or something like that. Peter will help me out because his French is much better than mine.
+
+[21:18] Uh and you you s swirl it around into a crepe, you let the bottom cook and you flip it. Spring roll, uh, by contrast, is a much uh less hydrated dough. It's I mean, I don't really know what they use, but it looks like maybe 75% hydration or maybe a little higher, and it sticks it sticks to your hand. And you need it to build up the gluten, use a high gluten flour. You need it to build up the gluten, and then you let it rest it for an hour or so before you use it to let it hydrate, and then you get a fairly low temperature griddle, right?
+
+[21:53] And I don't yeah, I don't think you want to oil it. I'm not sure. I don't think you want to oil it. But then you grab the dough in your hand, and you have this lump of sticky dough in your hand, and you mash it onto the griddle and you wipe it around in like a wax on, wax off movement. For those of you that have seen karate kid, uh, and then you pull the dough off, and just a thin layer sticks on your griddle.
+
+[22:12] Uh, and then after a couple moments, it dries out because it's very thin, and after it dries out, it self-releases from the griddle in the same way that uh in the same way that rice uh will release off the side of a pan if you let it dry overnight. But you don't want it to turn brown, so it's you're not browning it, right? So it's very low temperature, probably somewhere in the 200 Fahrenheit in that range, and he's making spring roll wrapper after spring roll wrapper. But it's a pretty cool technique. Um I don't think that's right.
+
+[22:40] I can't remember whether I've ever tried it. If I have tried it, it would have been decades ago. But it is a cool technique. You ever tried that, either of you guys? No.
+
+[22:48] Nope. You like yourself spring roll? Yeah. Loving my spring rolls. Yeah, everyone likes a spring roll, right?
+
+[22:55] I like spring rolls wrapped in lettuce. The combo is good for me. Uh that's more of a lettuce roll, isn't it? Well, it's a roll within a roll. Oh, you mean you like an actual spring roll with the wrapper and then wrap again in lettuce?
+
+[23:09] Yeah. Is that because of the whole like, you know, Korean thing? You re you have to wrap everything in lettuce, you're not happy? I can pretty much take anything, wrap it in lettuce and and love it. But I really like I really like the contrast of the crispy spring roll and then with the fresh lettuce.
+
+[23:23] It's makes me happy. So in order, do you would prefer but oh wait, well, you like a fried spring roll or you like 'em like still kind of you like 'em fried, like egg roll style, fried hard, and then wrapped in lettuce, or you like 'em soft wrapped in lettuce. In that case, fried. Fried, then wrapped in lettuce. Yep.
+
+[23:39] You should do you should do a uh you should fry it, you should fry it, then wrap it in an unfried one and then wrap it in lettuce. See how many layers you can go. By the way, this might be a a a good point to to bring this up. Uh I don't know if we brought it up before, but I'll see whether Nastasha and uh Peter and uh like the guys in the booth agree with me. I hate raps.
+
+[24:00] Uh man, I hate raps. For as much as I hate like uh spring roll, as much as I love tortillas of almost any variety, although I do prefer corn for most applications, man wraps suck. They really are bad. Everyone needs to walk around and then every once in a while, like think about the fact that wraps are so popular here in the US and they're really just they're just viciously bad. They're horribly, horribly bad.
+
+[24:26] I mean, you if you think about this. Uh you're taking an undercooked flour tortilla, which if you were gonna do any reasonable kind of cooking, you would reheat on a griddle to kind of make it taste more cooked, right? And then serve it right away in some sort of cooked thing. And instead, you're wrapping it with a bunch of other dense, wet crap, right? And then wrapping it in such a way almost invariably that you have too much uh kind of flowery mess on one section and not enough in another, and serving to someone as though something they should eat.
+
+[25:02] Have we discussed this before, Nastasha on the air? I think so. Have we? Well, it kind of bears repeating. Peter, we've never discussed it before.
+
+[25:09] What do you think? Am I am I off base here with my with my rap hatred? No, my my soul just crumbled away a little bit, just imagining biting into one of those cold, mealy, crumbly tortilla things. Like it's yeah. Not so so somewhere at some point, right?
+
+[25:26] And I can't remember when the rap thing happened, but I remember before there were raps, right? So like, you know, when I was a little boy, we didn't get raps. That didn't happen, right? That was not that was not on the rest. So some point between the late 70s and the mid-90s, some person who hates food, some person who absolutely detests all that is good in life, came up with this kind of horrible rancid idea and has perpetrated it on hundreds of millions of us.
+
+[25:57] Because we've all been served one of these nonsense wraps before. And I think, you know, right after you back the Mofad Kickstarter, go tell a friend not to buy wraps. You know what I'm saying? I will say this. You know, a lot of times, uh so back when I was working as an attorney, you know, we'd have these business meetings, right?
+
+[26:16] And there'd be catered food. And I'll be honest, a lot of times I opted for the wrap over the sandwich simply because I didn't want to make a mess and it was just easier to eat. I still didn't like it. I still prefer a sandwich. I don't necessarily think that this was an uh a crime against humanity as as you're suggesting, but you know.
+
+[26:35] It's there is something to be said about how it keeps your hands clean. Alright, well, okay, so let's let's go on this for a second. That's true. However, here's here's the thing. Most a a poorly made sandwich, right, is still better than a well-made wrap, right?
+
+[26:52] And but the problem is is that there it's very hard to actually construct a sandwich for best taste and also best eatability. You know what I mean? So most people they'll overstuff the hell out of their sandwich, and then it tastes good because the fillings almost always taste good, but it's completely uneatable in a kind of a friendly or not friendly, but the public or business environment because the stuff's gonna be falling all over your plate all the time. The flip side is people that manufacture sandwiches for either maximum eatability or their maximum crazy hairbrained idea of health, right? Like those guys, when they when they make the sandwich, it's like horribly dry.
+
+[27:29] And all like a dry sandwich makes me almost as sad, maybe in some situations more sad, because it could be so much better with a simple addition of the condiment like mayonnaise or oil, as a wrap. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think that's how sad is a dry sandwich. How sad are these two things?
+
+[27:46] A dry sandwich or an undersalted sandwich, where they like someone made the chicken salad and they didn't put enough salt in the chicken salad, and it's also a little too dry, and they pack it on that like horribly bad, badly made wheat bread that they think is good for you, but it's not because it tastes bad. And there's like the bread the bread to fill in combo is just way off. I mean, I I think the solution really for this is to have tea sandwiches at all business meetings. I love tea sandwiches. These sandwiches are good.
+
+[28:16] Yeah. But I think you know the other issue with bad sandwiches, i you know, there's so much bad like so much of the kind of things that are put out for people to eat are horrible. I mean, I don't know what got me into this mood, but here's another one for you. When you wrap a breadstick with uh with ham, right, you gotta realize that uh especially the thin breadsticks, like their ability to stay crisp is extremely minimal because any amount of water at all uh migrates out of that ham into that breadstick. And now you have like a mealy gooey breadstick, and then you have to try and extricate this ham from around it.
+
+[28:52] And it and i I should it's another pro people need to think about moisture migration and putting different products together. Uh they're gonna sit around for a long time when they're worrying about catering things like business lunches. What are your thoughts on the breadsticks and ham? Just moisture migration uh ignorance. Yeah.
+
+[29:12] Yeah. Yeah. I mean otherwise. I mean, I don't think I would describe it that way myself. I mean, I I agree with you in spirit, you know.
+
+[29:23] I'm I'm right there with you. Just perhaps the uh the uh magnitude is uh it's you're further out there than me. Well, I also noticed that uh what you're telling me is that at the business meeting you're too much of a sissy to take the sandwich that you like and instead taking the rep. Oh, the hate's being directed this way now. Yeah.
+
+[29:45] Yes, yes. Well, you know, i if you ever come work, anyone who's listening, if they ever come work with us, you gotta realize there's gonna be a certain amount of hate down getting thrown around at all times. We just can't we can't help a little bit of the friendly hate down uh here uh at either at MoFad uh or Booker Index or Cooking Issues. Anyway, uh we got it take a uh commercial break? Sure.
+
+[30:07] Oh wait, here's a big coming out. This one is called Fish Is Fish Is Vodka by the Meatballers on cooking issues, this is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Krille, we've created something exciting and new at Chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love. And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible.
+
+[31:32] At ChefSteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, Chef Steps.com is entirely free to learn. And welcome back to the Issues.
+
+[32:11] Here today with Peter Kim. Head of Mofad, Nastasha, and the engineering crew. Calling your questions, she's awesome time. Calling your questions to 714972128 to 718497-2128. So we have this one in uh comment really from uh Andrea Perotti from the uh UK.
+
+[32:30] And this one, uh Peter, you weren't gonna want to listen to it. It has to do with uh Mofad. I'm a longtime reader of the blog and listener of the show. My girlfriend and I have followed uh the recent Mofad development and are very excited about this project, especially the puffing gun exhibit. I'm a nutrition science student currently working at Kellogg's as a junior nutritionist on our UK team.
+
+[32:47] I'm sure you guys won't need it, but if you'd uh if you'd like any information or any help of any kind, I'd be happy to contribute any way I can. I'm not a huge manufacturing expert, but I work closely with the RD team, and I'll be happy to let any inform give you any information should you need it. So I guess we know who knows, who knows what we need, right, Peter? Oh, yeah, that would be fantastic. Yeah.
+
+[33:04] Fantastic. So, yeah, you should definitely contact us uh at info at mofad.org, and uh we'll definitely get in touch with you. Here's the best part. Best of luck in obtaining the full amount for the puffing gun. We recently made a small donation, but are spreading the word to all of our family and friends.
+
+[33:18] So Andrea's doing exactly the right thing, which is spreading the word to all the family and friends. Maybe we have a caller. Uh, we have a caller. Caller, you're on. Oops.
+
+[33:36] Can you guys hear? I can't I can't I can't hear what's going on. Caller. Hello. Hi.
+
+[33:43] Howdy. Hello? Hi. Hello. Caller.
+
+[33:51] Hello. Hi. Howdy do you what's your question? Hi. Sorry, uh Susan you can hear me.
+
+[33:59] Um I'm calling about uh long time listener love the show. Um calling about thickening yogurt. I'm wondering I want to like take yogurt and add pure fruit puree to it, but it loses a lot of its viscosity. And I'm wondering if I can use something like agar or carrageenan to thicken it so that I can like form canals with spoon. Well you can thicken uh yogurt with carragen.
+
+[34:21] It's done all the time. The issue is is that uh you know carragena needs to be heated uh you know pretty hot almost all the way up to uh the boil for it to really get um to to get active now what you can do is uh heat heat the carrageenin in and I would use so kappa carragenin is uh stiff and brittle uh and it doesn't reform after it's broken whereas iota carrageenin is much more kind of uh stretchy uh and it also reforms gel so a lot of times people will use a mix of kappa and uh iota for things like thickening yogurt uh and you you you can use a very small amount because carragena is very s synergistic with um uh with uh dairy systems um and so i mean i think a lot of the times people would probably add the stuff before the thickening because they can then heat it but without heating the yogurt up to a certain to a high temperature but what you could do is over um you know heat the yogurt slightly and then oh it'll kill the culture so and then over uh you know overdose dose some actual straight milk and then stir that in let it gel and then set up further alternatively you know you could take a live yogurt uh make like a firmer iota and then you know stir it in uh just before it sets when it's warm but not too hot and then let it set like that and then let it culture up a little more and you should be able to get a uh a gel. The other thing though is if you really want to thicken it up just hang it. You know like uh put put it into like uh you know uh uh natural fine cheesecloth not the wretched they sell in the supermarket and let moisture drip out of the yogurt for a good long time and uh you'll you'll drip out a bunch of the moisture and it'll thicken up quite a bit and then you won't have as much of a problem when you mix the fruit fruit purees back into it because uh it'll you'll just be taking it back to where it once was right okay. Um how much keratean do you typically use for say like X amount of something like yogurt.
+
+[36:20] You could you said you use small amounts, right? What do you say? You you generally typically use like very little right. Yeah. Well so I mean uh in a dairy systems carotene is roughly uh five times more powerful than it is in water-based systems.
+
+[36:35] I mean the numbers get a little dicey when you get down to those kind of very low percentages, but you can in general use like on the order of uh two grams per kilo something in that range and get a pretty uh decent gel with with them. Um Piper Christensen uh who works with us at Booker and DAX uh did a stint at uh working R D at CP Kelco who does a lot of the good carrageenas. So what we'll have him do, uh he's in Vietnam right now, but when he gets back from Vietnam I'll just ask him for a good yogurt thickening recipe and have him tweet it out and I'll retweet it for it on our cooking issues tweet Twitter feed before uh next week's show. Awesome. That would be amazing.
+
+[37:16] Thanks I love the show. Love everyone there. Keep up the good work. Thanks so much. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[37:22] Yeah no worries. So all right. So Andrea uh made a comment uh back from uh the the person who works at Kellogg's in the UK uh and this is the apropos part also for Peter uh the nutrition show uh the nutrition coverage on the show is limited but always very interesting and usually aligned with my personal opinions. There are not so many shows, programs or print media publications that really value evidence-based nutrition like you do. I really do enjoy listening.
+
+[37:45] Well Andrea I have a treat for you that you can talk about a little bit which is the museum we've mentioned this on the air the museum is going to be uh doing a series of food fora uh I guess that's a plural for forum uh where we get uh uh experts in different fields uh food related fields on opposite sides of uh different issues including uh nutrition questions things like the soda ban in New York uh and kind of what the evidence is on whether or not that's even a useful thing or a good thing uh things like what other what other subjects we got to tackle Peter? Uh looking at the marketing of snack foods also uh GMO seeds and basically I take any any controversial food issue where you've got a lot of really strong opinions out there, you know, bringing all these people together for a uh for a discussion and to allow people to see the different points of view and come to their own conclusions. Right. So, you know, what we hope is that you know, this is going to be uh a bastion of kind of no BS straight footing. We're gonna get people from different sides of the debate who are all smart, no idiots, uh, and get them together, moderate them, and try to have some actual interesting food discussion.
+
+[39:06] A lot of it's gonna be centered about around nutrition just because that's such an important topic today. There's just so much misinformation uh out there. Uh because you know, almost all the information that you get presented is presented by someone who has an axe to grind. Don't you think so, Peter? Yeah, I agree.
+
+[39:23] Yeah. I mean, we have a I have an axe to grind too, but my axe to grind is that everyone else has an axe to grind, but I guess that is that is its own axe, right? Is that a meta axe? Yeah, meta-axe. I'd say either an axe to grind or a commercial interest.
+
+[39:39] Yeah, or or some combination. Yeah. Some combination thereof. Okay. Vivian Mack writes in uh question for the show.
+
+[39:45] Uh she writes on Twitter actually. Uh, why do some uh age uh egg whites when they make macro, what's the difference? Uh what's the effect of age, egg whites on foam, uh drainage, and volume? Well, I looked at an article called Hen Age and Ape Storage Time for Egg Albumin Foaming by Marianne Hammer Surge. Dave, you have another caller.
+
+[40:04] Oh, yeah, okay, okay. Caller, you're on the air. Uh yeah, Dave. Um I'll be brief here since we run out of time. Falafel.
+
+[40:12] Um having repeated falafel disasters, it either instantly burns or just is completely disintegrates in the oil. Yes, that is true. Uh uh I that there's nothing more depressing than uh there's nothing more depressing than making the falafel ball and then sticking it into the oil, having it completely dissolved, and then form a layer of burnt crap on the bottom of your fryer. Check, check, check. Yes.
+
+[40:42] Yeah. It happens to me all the time. And I did went research a good recipe, and I had my falafels uh down. But I'm hesitant to uh just like over the air, give a bunch of things because I want to remember exactly uh how balance them. I think one of my main problems was I early on is I really like uh I really like uh tahini flavor a lot, and so I think I put a lot of it into the chickpea mix that I put in, and so I think the oil and plus I didn't add a lot of external binder to it, and they just blew apart.
+
+[41:19] Um then I moved to try to chill the batter first in the you know par freeze a little bit so that they'd uh hold well before that crust set up, and I went through a whole bunch of rigamaroles, but I'm gonna try to figure out exactly what I did, and if Natasha can write a note, I'll uh try to talk about it at the next week's uh program when I have uh a little more time to regather my thoughts on it. But but that you're correct. There's nothing more depressing, well, a few things more depressing than watching your falafel balls fall apart in the fryer and sink to the bottom. Yes. Um thank you very much.
+
+[41:51] All right, so we'll we'll uh we'll deal with that guy next week. All right, so back to the importance of hen age and egg storage time uh from 2000. And I was reading the abstract. The firm and infraction of egg albumin had different foaming properties. Uh so and it, I'll give you the upshot.
+
+[42:07] The thin white foams more, i.e. I eat has more overrun, can take more area to it. But the thick white produces a more stable foam, right? So you can't uh the the you can't win. And so the more you age things, the more the uh egg whites, uh more of the thick white is converted into uh thin white.
+
+[42:30] But also the the foaming properties of it depend on the age of the hen when the hen lays the egg, and that's something you can't control anyway. So really uh there is no way uh there's no way to win. Uh there's another article if you want, you can go look at uh that deals with uh the problem of meringue specifically. It's called the effect of sugar, citric acid, and egg white types on the microstructural mechanical properties of meringues, which came out relatively recently, but uh I think all of this stuff is kind of point. The best thing I read about it was uh on a website called Macaron Myth Mythbusters, uh uh on the blog www.uhbravepart.com.
+
+[43:09] By the way, we're not talking about macaroons here, we're talking about the the French meringue-based cookies with the jelly in between, which I freaking love. Do you guys like those things? Uh no, not really. What the what the hell? You don't like those either.
+
+[43:25] What do you not like about those? Peter, you like those things, right? Sorry, man. You don't like Well, actually, I don't uh it's been so long since I've had one. But I'm not I don't have much of a sweet tooth.
+
+[43:37] The hell's wrong with you people. Why don't you like it, Stas? Is it because it reminds you of how delicious a biscuit is? No, I uh same as Peter. Like I haven't had it in a long time, so it's not like I care that much about them.
+
+[43:48] So maybe that's the thing. I just don't care. So it's not that you don't like them, it's just you don't care about them. But if someone put in front of you, you're not you're having no thanks. No, I'll eat it.
+
+[43:58] Yeah, all right, well, you guys are freaking over those. I think they're delicious. Anyway, uh so uh Brave Tart, and I don't know who it is, uh sh uh did a series of tests. And uh here's what Braveheart writes, which I really like. Uh every day I changed a single variable across multiple batches.
+
+[44:16] And Brave I was making them professionally uh for somebody uh you know for for several months was doing you every day was pumping out these things and so had a lot of opportunity to test and said uh changed feel variable across multiple batches generally three in order by results. I also tested variables by their absence. For example, I listened to Huey Lewis in the news every time I made macaron the macaron turned out fabulous. Then I made a few batches without the power of love because these all uh and then these also turned out beautifully so I can at least conclude that Huey Lewis didn't play an essential role in the matter of making macarons I think that's kind of a great test you know maybe it was the Huey Lewis. And Bra Brave here is Brave Tart rather here is uh what they're what what you know what Braveheart's basic tart is basically saying is that uh a lot of these things that people take for granted or take f as rules making them like you have to uh age your egg whites first or you have to um or you have to dry out them after you pipe them before you cook them aren't necessarily dried in stone.
+
+[45:14] And Brave Tart's point, and I can't keep saying their name because I don't know if it's a he or she, but uh Brave Tart's point is basically that if you have proper technique and you know what a proper meringue looks like and the proper egg white foam looks like then you can get that egg white foam. You can get a proper result, right? Uh if your technique is good, whether you dry it uh after you uh after you pipe it or you don't because that's basically controlling uh moisture a lot of the techniques that are used are controlling the moisture content of the uh batter before it's piped so drying controls the spread of the macaron and the and and and the moisture content by letting some moisture flash off ditto with the aging the egg whites and by the way back to Vivian Mac's question aging the egg whites can mean uh several things it can mean using aged egg whites i.e uh what or aged eggs that is eggs that are older had and therefore also have a higher pH and more thin white uh and also possibly more protein density because some uh water's evaporated it could also mean uh uh cracking the eggs out in advance uh and then letting moisture flash off the top of the egg white to also increase protein density either one of those things could be meant by aging I'm not sure which one you mean uh or which one anyone means when they're talking about it but the the the big point here is that uh all of the variables about the age of the egg whites can just be swamped and drowned out if you just perfect uh your actual technique so I would go read uh Brave Tart's macaroon section uh macaron section rather uh and see what they said. So uh very quickly because I know I am running out of time because I have to make it to my Uncle Luke's hundredth birthday you don't want to be late to a hundredth birthday party am I right? Right.
+
+[46:57] We need a hundred so last time I saw Uncle Luke he was ninety-eight and he's he's still clipping along saw him yesterday you know just just in case but uh but yeah never been to a hundredth birthday oldest relative I've ever had you have anyone that's uh close to a hundred no family ever no not at all yeah yeah he's down here in Florida living the kind of dehydrated Florida life, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay. So uh Scott from Guelph, you know we love Guelph.
+
+[47:25] Never been, but like I always say, awesome uh university up there, Democrats writes in uh saw an interesting link uh about the polymerization uh the polymerization of oils and the for those of you that want to look at it as a patent link is EP 244066 A1 uh and says Dave was talking about Japanese being able to get oil products uh thought this might be relevant. Now we were talking before about this Japanese product a couple people wrote in about uh that you could uh add to uh oil in the pan it solidifies it so you could throw it away as a block which is kind of cool uh but this is is kind of a a cool technique then we should talk about it more next week where they're actually using um not methyl cellulose like we use in normal cooking ethyl cellulose uh and the the deal with ethyl cellulose as opposed to methyl cellulose is ethyl cellulose is not soluble in water it's not a hydrocolum soluble in oil but it's in it's and although it's not a hydrocolloid it's not soluble in water uh it it's it is exactly analogous to hydrocolloids in water but so you disperse ethyl cellulose in oil heat it up to a much higher temperature than you do uh most water based cells 140 uh Celsius uh it dissolves in cools and forms a gel where the liquid phase is actually liquid oil and not liquid water uh experimenting with them but it's uh pretty cool and they have a lot of um potential uses in being able to uh replace uh trans fats. Anyway, okay. Question before uh before we gotta go. Uh your Jack got a question for the show and something for you to laugh at.
+
+[49:09] This is from Dane and Siska. Uh and I'll first give you the one that they sent me to laugh at of uh the uh they you know he knows uh that uh we enjoy uh funk and hip hop and all this kind of stuff so and I was not aware of this website but sent us a link to uh it's called Gizoogle and basically they take they take any it's like Google but they they somehow use Google Translate's uh uh functionality and they translate any they translate anything into smooth bugs kind of like you know shit language. So they sent us a link to uh cooking issues uh heritage radio cooking issues uh splash page done in uh in chisel language and it is a an interesting it's fun to do search uh as long as you're you know as long as you're not offended by uh people dropping a lot of F bombs it is back to these quick questions he has two questions next week because I don't understand it. Questions are w number one, Western sauce W a TF. I've never heard of Western sauce you ever heard of Western sauce or Peter?
+
+[50:16] No. I have no idea what that is. I don't for Western uh North Carolina versus East North Carolina barbecue sauce in which case I'm gonna see WTF who wants that Western North Carolina barbecue sauce. No offense Lexington North Carolina because I'll tell you something the Eastern North Carolina barbecue sauce which is vinegar and red pepper only way to be and you know I think now anyone that lives you know kind of in the Piedmont area of uh North Carolina and likes to add a little bit of tomato in the otherwise delicious pulled pork barbecue uh with uh with kind of too police and such, but uh it you know there's kind of like there's a right and a wrong there, and I believe Eastern North Carolina sauce is right. Uh about to think that's what they're referring to.
+
+[50:57] Probably gonna get in trouble for that smoke. Uh shame there. Oh, and by the way, uh, you know how a couple weeks ago I came out against barbecue sauce because in general I'm against it. You remember that stuff? Yeah.
+
+[51:08] Do you know who Dr. Gable Williams is? You're sort of fading out and then. Oh, do you know who Dr. Gable Williams is?
+
+[51:15] No. Gunger Gable Williams was the most famous animal trainer like the freaking brothers ever had. And he's been down here, and I had a chance to taste his steak sauce, and I have to say it was pretty good. Check out Gunter Gable Williams' steak sauce. You take uh you take scotch.
+
+[51:33] You taste a bunch of onions, and then you throw in a bunch of scotch, and then you throw in a bunch of Worcestershire sauce, and then uh and that and then you throw in a little bit a little bit of brown sugar and uh a little bit of mustard and a little bit of Worcestershire sauce, and that and I have to say actually like that's pretty good. That's more of a zoo. That's a yeast sweet barbecue sauce and more of a jus. Anyway, um, so it looks like uh looks like it's all the good stuff we got, it does. Yeah.
+
+[52:05] Alright, we're out. I'm gonna uh report on my Uncle Luke's hundredth birthday when I come back to these looking issues and remember to back Kickstarter by the. Yeah, Dave, one more plug. One more plug, man. So yeah, we'd really appreciate you guys' support.
+
+[52:17] Uh means a lot to us. Uh really needs to help. So uh and we need to raise the money we need for the exhibit by July twenty. If we don't get the support we need, this is really just not gonna happen. So please get on to boom that mofed.org.
+
+[52:30] Uh thank you. Do it, do it now, do it. Do it. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[52:53] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out Chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at ChefSteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:21] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues. Cooking issues. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave All and your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from New Orleans, Louisiana.
+
+[1:10] But the rest of the cooking issues crew is coming to you live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, with uh sweating in their chonies right now without air conditioning. How are you guys doing? Fine. Uh yeah, yeah. Well, we have uh in the studio today.
+
+[1:23] We actually have a full crew over there. We have uh I think we have do we have Jack Angelo in the engineering booth or uh No, just me today. Oh, he made you suck up the heat. Thanks, Joe. Uh, but in the uh actual uh little place where we do the show, we have Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, as usual.
+
+[1:41] We also have Peter Kim from MoFad to talk more of Mofad goodness with us, and Piper decided to go and take a hit with us today. How are you doing, guys? Fine. Good. Yeah, yeah, good.
+
+[1:51] All right. So listen, a note on uh a note on uh Mofad, the Museum of Uh Food and Drinks. This is the last cooking issue show before our Kickstarter ends. Kickstarter ends on this Saturday. And uh right now we're still pushing towards our goal.
+
+[2:08] We super duper need everyone's help on this. I mean, it's very critical that we uh make and break through this goal to get the puffing gun in the museum kind of on track. Peter, you want to say uh a few words here? Yeah, we've got four days. We need to raise over 14,000 of, you know, it's not just about launching this puffing gun exhibit, but it's really about generating momentum for the museum as a whole.
+
+[2:33] And uh, you know, we can't really get into the details here, but there's a lot more at stake than just this exhibit. Uh, there are a lot of uh, let's just say important people watching, and if we have a strong showing here, we show that there's broad support for a food museum here in New York, which I think there should be, uh, then a lot of great things are gonna happen for the project. This is really gonna help us rocket forward to opening up New York's first brick and mortar food museum. It's something we really believe in. We need your help.
+
+[2:59] Please get on to Kickstarter at Boom.mofad.org right away. Boom.mofad.org. We really need your help. Thanks, guys. You've already backed it, right?
+
+[3:09] You can always go in, manage your pledge, kick in a few dollars more. It's not gonna hurt. You don't have to only pledge whatever you pledged to get your t shirt or whatever. Am I right, Peter? That's right.
+
+[3:19] And actually, real quick story. I was on the phone with my brother the other day, and uh, you know, lamenting to him how stressful this whole process is. Um, and I was talking to my eight year old nephew uh Oliver, and Oliver uh basically was telling me how amazing the puffing gun looks and how he's so excited about seeing it. And then he said, I'll try to do uh a little impression. Uncle Peter, uh, Uncle Peter, I I looked in my piggy bank.
+
+[3:44] I have ten dollars. I want to donate ten dollars to the MoFed Kickstarter campaign, because I want to see a puffing gun. Uh Wow. Are you gonna are you gonna are you guys out there gonna disappoint that kid? Seriously.
+
+[3:57] My eight-year-old nephew, he wants to donate ten dollars. I'm not taking the ten dollars, but that is like I mean, basically, I think he's that he just gave away his whole life savings right there to MoFed. And so if an eight-year-old can do that, uh, you know, we've got awesome stuff. $30 gets you a great t-shirt, $50 gets you a tote, $300, and you can see Dave, Harold McGee, uh Wiley Dufrein, a bunch of other steps uh puffing whatever they want in the puffing gun, and we'll be doing some really interesting stuff there. Yeah, no one should be disillusioned when they're eight.
+
+[4:29] Nine. Nine is the is the year of disillusionment. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:34] Uh all right, let's I figured it's like let's see whether we can sweeten this up a little bit. People who have listened to the show for a while, uh, may remember several years ago when I lost a bet. And the bet was uh the bet was to uh whether or not someone could produce uh a raw chocolate that I thought was even marginally uh halfway decent and worth eating as chocolate, right? And if I lost, uh I would have to eat uh raw vegan food for a week. And I did.
+
+[5:04] And you know, no offense to people who eat raw vegan every day, but it was horribly unpleasant and wreaked havoc with my uh GI track. Let's put it that way. So I was gonna put this to you guys there in the studio. Can we think of an equally unpleasant thing that I can do? And then let's say, okay, I bet that we don't get more than $10,000 more than uh than than what we want.
+
+[5:27] So in other words, that we won't make it to 90. If we make it to ninety, I'll go through with whatever unpleasant thing that uh that we think we should do. What do you think? Finish your book on time. It's too late, my book's already late.
+
+[5:39] Busted. Busted. I can't finish something on time. It's already late. I mean we can create a new deadline.
+
+[5:45] Yeah, yeah, right. You can always create a new deadline. My question is something that the reader that the listeners care about, right? Like, is there anything unpleasant that I can eat, some like horrible, stupid diet that I can undertake for a week or two? Well, here are things I we know that Dave hates.
+
+[5:58] What does Dave hate? Dave hates raps. Dave hates natto, Dave hates cherries. Well, I don't hate them, I love them. I just can't have them.
+
+[6:08] Piper, you probably know better. What what other stuff does Dave hate? Um you could do 40 hard boiled eggs like cool hand luke. Well, that's more of a physical challenge. I gave that sort of thing up.
+
+[6:19] I mean, like that gave that sort of thing up when I was in college. I mean, I was that guy in college who uh I was that guy in college who uh would eat you know anything for like uh like two bucks. I always like so cheap. I once ate a gallon of salsa for I think three bucks. I ate like a couple of those uh, you know, like whole tea bags for like a dollar.
+
+[6:39] That was like I was that guy. That was me in college. That guy. The bar's pay. That was me.
+
+[6:43] Yeah. Uh so a gallon of salsa for three bucks for ninety thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm not that guy anymore. So once you have kids, my wife's like, really?
+
+[6:53] You can't you can't do things that dumb because it uh you know it makes it sends the wrong message to the kids. You know what I mean? What about the lemonade cleanse? Oh, that actually be quite good. What's the lemonade cleanse?
+
+[7:04] It's like uh maple syrup and lemonade and uh cayenne pepper, and that's all you get. All day long. I mean, I could do that, that. That's just unpleasant, but it doesn't have me learn anything. It doesn't have me like is there anything that I've derided horribly?
+
+[7:14] Let's think about it for a couple minutes. And uh uh by the way, call your questions to sub one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's 7184972128. I'm gonna read something in from uh one of our listeners and supporter of Mofad. By the way, since I don't know them personally, do you think it's Jean Doe or Zon Do?
+
+[7:33] Zhondo would be the better Twitter Twitter handle, right? Zon Doe? It is Zon Doe. And I've I've spoken with him extensively. This this guy has been a superstar, really helping us with the outreach.
+
+[7:43] Yeah. So he wrote in and said, uh, I've learned a lot from your cooking issue show over the several months listening to your podcast. I'm pretty close to being caught up in all the back episodes. Thank you for freely sharing your in-depth knowledge as well as making uh the methods and techniques so accessible. Also, the Mofab Kickstarter is a food education game changer, and I wish you all the best of luck in getting it back.
+
+[8:00] I'm doing what I can do to spread the word. Here are a couple of my thoughts on boom, which is the name of the Kickstarter, by the way. Uh on Twitter uh post requesting puffing ideas. I recall Sean Brock suggested uh I'm gonna stush I pronounce it the way you hate Faro. Nastasha hates it when I say pharaoh instead of pharaoh.
+
+[8:15] Anyway, faro and uh at Mark S. mentioned sorghum. Uh ideas are good, but what about encouraging grain uh farmers, chefs, etc. to donate interesting ingredients? And that's we an outreach program that would get more people excited about boom, it would be analogous to the communal oven back in the day.
+
+[8:28] I was wondering if you could possibly create your own grain in quotes to puff. I understand that puffing has to do with grain moisture content and the hull containing the grain. The moisture part is easy. Is there a food technology one could easily leverage to create a pseudo hole? Well, interestingly, here uh that is not that is how normal popcorn style stuff works, but the puffing gun doesn't require the hull.
+
+[8:49] The science behind the puffing gun and puffing in general. So when you're puffing a popcorn, what happens is you have starch and moisture, and you heat up uh the starch and moisture, and the moisture is trapped not just because of the starch, but because of the uh skin, the hull around the outside of the popcorn. Until enough pressure can build up that it ruptures that skin and boom explodes into popcorn. In the puffing gun, you don't need that layer because you just seal it tight and the whole thing goes under pressure. So there's no way for it to expand.
+
+[9:18] There's no way for it to boil or expand when it's inside of the gun because s pressure just simply mounts up. Then when you pull the lever, everything instantly puffs uniformly. So if you put popcorn in a puffing gun, it comes out as spheres. Uh Peter's like totally jacked for that because he's been like dreaming of these popcorn spheres since since we got the gun. We haven't put fired popcorn in it yet.
+
+[9:38] Uh but that's also why you can put dough-based things in, and that's how they used to make Cheerios. In fact, this gun was originally designed by Kellogg's to make Cheerios. So yes, you can make your own sort of uh mix of grains and other starches and puff them in that no problem. Right, Peter? Yeah, that's right.
+
+[9:56] Oh, uh all right, before I take the collar, uh uh Jondot finished out. Here's what he would like to puff azuki beans, black sesame, and rice. If it works, we could uh make a tasty mochi-inspired marshmallow treat. Please tell your listeners that I back MoFat's kickstorder and so should they, right? That's a good idea.
+
+[10:11] Caller, you're on the air. Hey, how's it going, guys? Going all right. Quick one for you. So I've heard you're uh you got a certain affinity for game and I'm a dude from Minnesota.
+
+[10:23] We kill a lot of deer up here, about like eleven a year. And my experience all of our cooking has been with uh using beef based recipes to uh and applying them to venison, which the results your mileage may vary. I was wondering if you had any suggestions as far as uh better ways to make use of uh all that game meat and uh like any thoughts you have. Well, you have a circulator? Um I do, yeah.
+
+[10:46] Yeah. So how's this stuff been coming out? Uh in other words, like when you do do the beef subs, I'm assuming you're doing them uh you're doing them in in a circulator, are they still coming out um how how are they coming out? Like what like tell me what tell me how the how the texture and the flavor of the stuff is coming out when it when it works. Are you killing uh are these younger animals or older animals by and large?
+
+[11:08] Hello? Hello? Collar? Alright, I think we had it. Are we back?
+
+[11:16] Alright, I think we're gonna have to hang up on this colour. What what happened? Collar dropped out. Oh man. Because I had I had a lot of interesting questions to ask the questions I wonder is by and large is he getting younger animals or older animals?
+
+[11:29] Because one of the issues with treating game like uh beef is that the beef that we get is r I mean no offense to beef, but relatively neutral in flavor compared to uh you know much older animals just because it's it's younger. And so game meats, the older they are the kind of more flavorful the more different kind of flavors they're gonna have. And if you're doing uh low temper sous vide with them, which is a great idea because you don't have to overcook it and you know you can kind of you know cook it very gently without overcooking it. The problem is is that some of these things can get kind of overwhelming when you cook them for a long time because some of those gamey flavors uh that come out of what fat there is and other things in the animal tend to accentuate uh over time as they sit in the bag. Uh and also certain older meats aren't gonna get tender no matter what you do, just because the suckers are tough.
+
+[12:19] I mean, that's the problem we had when we cooked uh we cooked that bear uh and we cooked the lion, as opposed to the yak, which is freaking delicious. Stas, you remember the yak, right? Yeah. That was delicious. Um, you know, I don't know about any specific uh, you know, to focus specifically on deer, because I unfortunately don't get enough of it to cook myself.
+
+[12:42] But when I get back to New York, I'm gonna take a look uh I'm gonna take a look at you know, I have the um after the hunt, which is John Folse's book on cooking uh Louisiana game that he shoots down here, and I know he has a big section on deer, so I'm gonna I'll check out to see kind of what he thinks about um uh using deer to its best advantage and then try try to kind of tech those ideas up. Piper, you you uh you guys have a lot of deer up in Vermont that you eat or no? Yeah. You ever look you uh you uh what what have you because the low temp stuff I've done on deer, uh you know, I've done I've done more elk than I've done deer because people have brought me more elk than deer. I've done some deer.
+
+[13:19] What like what kind of luck have you had with it on uh low temping it or recipes for it? I've never done low temp with it, but uh sausage it works really well. Yeah, everything tastes good in sausage, man. Why haven't you low temped it yet? Because you haven't been back there during deer season or what?
+
+[13:31] Yeah, I just haven't been back there in uh in a while. So you're gonna rectify that this uh this fall? Yes. I'll get my license. Yeah, all right.
+
+[13:39] Hey, really? You invite me up? Can I come up? We'll go out together? Why not?
+
+[13:43] All right, cool. Uh all right, so then we'll uh we'll we'll we'll get back on that. Okay. Um you guys come up with any good uh good, bad ideas for me. Look, the lemonade cleanse, I'll do it.
+
+[13:53] It's fine. I mean, if we decide on that, maybe someone can call in with something horrific for me to do. You could eat in Brooklyn for a month. Oh my god. That's just like that.
+
+[14:02] The problem with that is I just won't see my kids. See, that's the that's the thing. Like I can't just move to Brooklyn for a month. You can bring them. And I'm not the one that hates Brooklyn, that's Nastasha that hates Brooklyn.
+
+[14:13] Remember? Then she can eat in Brooklyn for a month. Well, she'll never do that. She would rather die. She would rather see all of us die.
+
+[14:19] She would rather kill you than eat in Brooklyn every day for a month. Am I right, Stas? No. No, what? You wouldn't want to eat in Brooklyn?
+
+[14:26] Or you'd rather you would do it? You would do it to save Piper's life? Sure. Wow. Nastash, you are you are a good person.
+
+[14:32] Uh Rory Mearns writes in, pronounced like Burns with an M. Rory Mearns from New Zealand. Hello to the entire cooking issues team and Indie Jesus. Would Indie Jesus listen to cooking issues? Would any form of Jesus ever have any sort of cooking issues?
+
+[14:46] Well, Rory, I don't know if you're aware of this, but uh back in the 90s, I think it was, uh, the group King Missile answered this uh in a song they wrote called Jesus is Way Cool. And uh if you uh remember Jesus is Way Cool, he can bake a cake better than anyone. Remember that? You guys remember that song? No.
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+[15:04] You guys don't know anything about King Missile. I know King Missile, but I know King Missile, but I don't know the song. They had that one uh Detachable Penis, yeah. Everyone listens to Detachable Penis and they don't listen to Jesus' way cool. You can't listen to Detachable Penis without you know going further and listening to the Jesus is way cool.
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+[15:22] It's all about how Jesus, like, you know, would be awesome, like to hang around with. You know what I mean? Because he's way cool. Anyway, uh I assume that's what he was uh referring to. Anyway, uh he's traveling from New York, uh to New York from New Zealand around September, October this year, and I had a couple of questions.
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+[15:38] One, I had some questions a while back about a red pepper sauce that you and your listeners helped me out with. Uh, this is uh product that is sold here commercially, that's New Zealand. So it's totally legit. I'd like to drop off a sample for the cooking issues team to taste and critique if they'd like. I'd love to hear your opinions on this stuff.
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+[15:51] Where would I be able to drop it off? Roberta's Booker and Dax, somewhere else. Matt, just drop it at the bar, Booker and Dacks, right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, make sure you put my name on it, or those those fools there will just eat it.
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+[16:01] They'll just eat it and be like, oh, we ate this hot sauce. Don't know why I had your name on it. Am I right? Yes. Yeah.
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+[16:07] Okay. Two jackets. While in New York I was hoping what does that mean? Yeah, yeah. Seriously, they're like vultures.
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+[16:13] Vultures and jackals. Any sort of scavengers. Some fly, some crawl. Uh while in New York, I was hoping to pick up a katsubushi shaver, uh, shaver, and hopefully some quality katsubushi. The stuff is not available this far down under.
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+[16:25] Can you tell me where I can go for this? I don't mind spending a bit if I know it will be quality and will last. Okay, so for those of you who uh who don't know uh kind of what we're talking about here, uh Katsobushi is the you know the name of the shaved uh bonito flakes, bonito flakes, which aren't really bonito, they're uh yellow skipjack, they're skipjack tuna. But uh so you know the the the flakes are the bonito flakes that you use to make dashi and innumerable other uh delicious things in Japanese cuisine. Uh so you you know you call that thing uh well various incarnations.
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+[16:56] There are different words for it at every step in the process, katsobushi. So the way it's made is they catch the fish, uh, they uh cook the crap out of the fish, they get the bones out of the fish, they dry the fish, they smoke the fish, they they let it rest, they smoke it, they let it rest, they smoke it, they spray some uh mold stuff on the outside for the really high they can sell it just right away then, but then that's the lower end stuff and then the higher end stuff. They they put a mold on, they age it, and really, really good stuff. You pick it up and you clink it together, and it sounds like uh kind of like wood, like tink tink tink. Amazing stuff.
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+[17:26] My wife bought me some uh from Japan when she went there maybe twelve years ago, and it's the first time I had the actual thing in my hand and not just the flakes. Uh thing was I needed a shaver, much as you do now. The only place I know you can walk into New York and in New York and buy a real uh it's called I believe it's called um a Kuriki so it'd be called like a Katsubushi uh sorry not uh Kizuri um uh Katsu Bushi uh Kazuri and so they the one that they have is at Corin. You should go to Corin anyway. It's a nice store down in Tribeca and it's like you know candy for it's like an amazing place.
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+[18:03] You know, you guys have all been there, right? Yeah. Yeah. What are your thoughts? It's awesome.
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+[18:09] Get your knife sharpening. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's an o do you say it's a knife store. See for see people who don't know Piper would be like it's a nice store meaning ah how good could it be?
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+[18:18] It's a knife store. He's like it's a knife store. How bad can it be? who's by the stream. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[18:26] Anyway, so uh go to go to Corin. Um I don't know how the exchange rate is. I mean Corin is, you know, it's more expensive than it was, you know, five years ago because um you know it's our exchange rate's horrible, but I don't know what the exchange rate is right now. The the prices there because they bring the stuff in from Japan are directly tied to whatever our exchange rate with Japan happens to be at that time. But they sell it and I looked online before I came over here and it's about eighty six dollars.
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+[18:50] Now what it is now you can also go by the way they don't sell food. So you're out of luck actually buying that item and the sad news is I have never seen anywhere in New York uh good quality of the solid to purchase of uh the actual katsubushi thing. Um now there are chefs who say they can get it but I'm not really hooked into the sushi uh suppliers right and none of the people that kind of were you know that I worked with when I was learning a lot about um cutting techniques, Nikijime techniques or even when I was doing you know a lot of things with the Gohan Society, none of those people really shaved their own uh flakes at their restaurants that I know of and so and and then when you asked them for sources they were very secretive I guess because there's a limited supply so they never told me where to go get the good stuff. You can go to Sunrise Mart, which is kind of a local Japanese mart, there's a couple of them in New in New York and they a couple of years ago like four or five years ago started carrying um the actual solid ones but they weren't the super highest quality ones like we you know like we saw when we were in Tokyo which were amazing. Alright.
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+[19:53] Second thing is there's extr oh by the way the the shaving block they also at at sunrise sell a really crappy little uh shaver made of plastic and metal stay away from it's useless you can don't don't don't get it. Now if you go on the internet and you look at people shaving it by the way what this shaver looks like is it looks like you took a wooden block plane, flipped it upside down and put it on a box and you shave on top of the box. Almost like a mandolin or a Ben Renner, right? Only it is really sturdy and solid and beautiful because it's you know one of those Japanese things that of course they're going to make it sturdy and beautiful and solid and it has to shave this thing which is incredibly hard this wood like uh piece of dried smoked fermented molded fish. Now I looked at some people who were uh you know doing their YouTube stuff YouTuber y in English and all of them were doing horrible horrible jobs.
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+[20:48] And and by the way when I use mine I do a horrible horrible job. The issues are that the actual moisture content of the katsobushi is critical to getting the shaving right. Otherwise you get little scrum blings of nastiness or like kind of gummy peels. Needs to be just right. Also the technique you use in shaving has to be just right.
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+[21:08] Also, you know, if you're looking at a katsubushi, and you guys all use it, so you know what I'm talking about. Well, if you look at katsuobushi, or if you look at the bonito flakes, we'll call them, you'll notice that a lot of the ones that you buy have kind of a darker stripe running through it. You guys notice that? Yeah. So that's the that's the um that's the chi ai line.
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+[21:26] That's the uh the the blood line that's in the fish. And so you can buy uh two types, well many, but two main types of these bonito flakes other than the quality ratings, and that is you can get them chi aiari, which means there's a bloodline in it, or chianuki meaning there's no bloodline in it. And one thing I've never been able to figure out is whether or not they do some sort of procedure to the actual dried fish and pop out that bloodline or do they uh just shave it in a way that they're not shaving that part of it when they shave that other stuff and they charge more. I have no idea because no one in English has mentioned this stuff. Now the good news is uh once you once you get a hold of this stuff you can learn how to do it if you can watch a bunch of stuff.
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+[22:09] There's an amazing set of videos but they're only in Japanese and I wish someone could translate some of the things. And they're on go to YouTube and search on Fushi taka F-U-S-H-I-T-A-K-A. They have a three-part series and you can see it. They're the ones that have dot M O V in the title. So even you know people like me who don't understand any sort of uh j you know Japanese characters at all you can find these and they're worth watching even if you can't speak a lick of Japanese because the visuals in it kind of show uh how it's done.
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+[22:38] Most interestingly is no one in English that I can see publishes how to properly adjust this cutter once you get it. You need a wooden or leather mallet. And what they do is they set the blade in and then they whack on it with a mallet to get the adjustment just right. And in the video they show you exactly uh how to do it, how to adjust it right, and how to adjust it up or down if the shavings that are coming out of it uh aren't proper. So I highly recommend washing that.
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+[23:04] And they also meant they also show in visual pictures, thank God, that you want to store uh that you want to store them at fifty percent humidity at about 20 degrees C or in a fridge that's wrapped uh in plastic and then in a zippy. Now, another thing is they I know that some people, Wiley told me, Dufrain told me once that they some people he'd seen who had them wrapped them in paper towels, I think moist paper towels, and nuked them for a second. And then in this video I saw them and they had a problem heated over a flame. So I don't know if there's a a trick there or not. Maybe someone who speaks Japanese could watch these videos and kind of tell us what's going on, but uh there you have it.
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+[23:40] So I can give you some love on the actual shaver, but not on the high quality fish itself. We'll have to find someone else who can find us a good source of that. Maybe someone will write in. Okay. Three.
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+[23:48] Well in New York, uh, where would I be able to pick up a dual probe thermometer gadget like those on the Chef Step store? You know the yellow looking things with replaceable probes that everyone seems to use for sous vide. Uh thanks uh for keeping up the good work. I'm looking forward to experiencing all the great food that America has to offer, including American country ham, something I never even heard of before listening to your show. Uh regards Rory Murns.
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+[24:06] Now on the on the probe, the only place I really go uh to buy kitchen equipment like that in New York is uh JB Prince. Now, JB Prints i y again, that's another place everyone should go. You guys have all been to JB Prince, right? We have love for JB Prints. JB Prince, um they don't carry a dual probe thermometer.
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+[24:25] And the other thing about JB Prince is you know, like they g they get a wrap from sometimes from people for being expensive, but the truth of the matter is they only carry kind of uh high end products, and so you can always get something cheaper. You're like you're not gonna be able to get something at JB Prince that's the same price as the one on the Chef Step uh website. Um but they do have a single probe uh thing. The other thing when you're buying a thermocouple probe, a lot of people on like Amazon, for instance, will will say that they have a hypodermic probe that works for Sous vide, and whoever wrote that must have never cooked a damn thing in their entire freaking lives because they they give you a probe that's way too wide and that when you puncture the bag doesn't reseal properly. Piper, you've seen that before, right?
+
+[25:08] Where someone says this is a hypodermic probe and it's it's more like a hammer. We used to put a little piece of rubber over the hole. Yeah, you have to put rubber over the hole anyway, no matter what kind of probe you use. But the ones that like that you had at WD were you know sub millimeter probes. They were thin and extremely fragile, by the way.
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+[25:27] So you never want to use it to check deep fryer oil because it can melt out the uh the thermocouple connections, the actual place where it's bonded together and you the thing is ruined. And those things cost well over, those cost like a hundred bucks or over, uh, like almost anywhere you go. There are things called hypodermic probes that are only a little bit thinner than uh than you know, like a standard instant read, and that you know wouldn't would cause way too big a big of a hole. They're like well over twice as big as the actual hypodermic probes. So I recommend going to JB Prints and looking at the hypodermic probe they have.
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+[26:00] But a secret trick if uh no one ships the product you want to New Zealand is uh you can use your New Zealand uh Amazon account, I think, to order on U.S. Amazon and have the stuff prime shipped to your hotel. And I've done that when I do events even within the United States. I've had stuff prime shipped to the hotel where I'm gonna stay because you know in advance where you're gonna be, and you can ship anything you want from the U.S. there, like that, and hotels will usually hold it, which is a good technique.
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+[26:24] But you should definitely go by JB Prince, and you should definitely go by uh Corin. And if you want to see a really good bookstore, you should go by Kitchen Arts and Letters, right? Anywhere else good that I should think about? Guys, they don't care, they're too hot. They can't even think straight over there.
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+[26:40] Okay. Uh Joshua writes in, I have ropey yogurt. Nastasha, is there anything more disgusting in your mind than ropey yogurt? Nope. Is that a new one?
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+[26:50] I'm gonna start actually, Piper, you have to buy this. There's a yogurt I'll talk about in a minute called Caspian Sea yogurt, uh Matsoni Matsuni, depending on how you pronounce it, that is meant to be ropey, and we can get the culture and make it, and then just make Nastasha look at ropey yogurt all day long. Won't that be fun? I like different textures. I know you do.
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+[27:06] That's like the McGee thing. The McGee thing, now this goes back to like something you know, McGee uh did a long time ago when we started doing the McGee cooking class. One of the things he said was, uh very early, he was interested in talking about is well, bad textures are only bad because we assume they're bad. What if you assume that that texture is good and then accentuated? And so that's when he really started pushing this idea of stretchy ice cream with Celep Danderma, right?
+
+[27:32] And you know, kind of you know, created a uh a whole thing around Celep becoming popular. He also said, Well, what if you really wanted ice cream to have giant crystals in it? Why does ice cream have to be smooth? And he, you know, showed the uh this French ice cream called like pin pin pin needle ice cream that I have to say I'll I'm with him in theory, but I didn't like the pin needle ice cream very much. You guys remember that one?
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+[27:55] Not really. You don't remember it or you didn't like it? I don't remember it. Ah man, it's just looks like in one ear and out the other on people. Uh whatever.
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+[28:02] So the whole point is is that if you push a texture in a certain way on purpose, it can be nice even though it's not what you're expecting. So there's this rope, uh, there's this yogurt that's ropey, that's meant to be ropey, uh, and and the other interesting thing about it is that it uses a melophysic uh sorry, mesophilic culture, meaning that the culture uh goes at low temperatures. You don't need a yogurt maker to do it. You can culture it at room temperatures and it gets this weird ropey uh yogurt. You can buy cultures for it online.
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+[28:30] But anyway, back to the question uh that Josh had. Joshua had. Uh I've been making yogurt recently and have had several batches which turn out a bit ropey slash snot-like. They taste fine, but the texture is not what I would like. My typical procedure is to take milk with a bitter powdered milk added up to 180 degrees Fahrenheit, kills all the stuff that's in, right?
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+[28:49] Cool to 110 degrees Fahrenheit, and add one tablespoon of starter yogurt per quart and incubate at 110 degrees Fahrenheit for six to eight hours. Any idea what causes this rope-like texture? Well, I've never had it happening before, but according to the by the way, ropey texture, well, I'll read you what it is. According to the sensory evaluation of dairy products, edited edited by Stephanie Clark, Michael Costello, and Floyd W. Bodyfeld.
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+[29:15] How often is that guy's name? Floyd Bodyfeld. And uh Marianne Drake, uh, who's very well known. There's uh on page 208, it says there are five major causes for ropey yogurt. Improper gums, meaning improper thickening devices that you're added, but you're not adding a thickener, so that's not your problem.
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+[29:32] Uh microbial contamination, uh, which is probably what's going on. Uh yogurt cultures containing polysaccharide-making bacteria. By the way, all these things add to the same thing. Improper setting temperatures and too much sugar. Now, too much sugar probably is not what you're doing.
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+[29:48] All of the rest of the other ones basically uh add up to this. There's some hydrocolloid being formed in, you know, polysaccharide being formed in your yogurt that's causing the ropey-like texture, right? And either you added that polysaccharide because you're using a thickener or gum, in which case you probably misadded some pectin or something like that that's causing a ropiness in it. Have you ever had a pectango ropey in a yogurt application piper? No.
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+[30:12] What about carragen and scopey? I never had a carrageenango ropey. No, the uh xanthine goes ropey. Yeah, xanthan goes ropey, but pectins when they go bad in certain acidic environments can go ropey if they're not fully set. But you've never had it happen in yogurt?
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+[30:27] No, I never encountered it in yogurt. Okay. Uh so all of these things uh basically point to the fact that there's a polysaccharide happening. Now the question is, is it contamination like a contaminant, bacteria uh or whatever that's floating into your yogurt and causing the ropiness? Or is it the actual yogurt culture that you're using uh that's doing it?
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+[30:49] Now it turns out that you know yogurt most typically is a combination of a um I I can't pronounce it, so like I'm gonna say it and it's gonna be wrong because I've only ever read it, I've never pronounced it. But it's a lactobacillus delbrucci, I think it's pronounced, uh bulgaricus, right? That's the one thing uh that does it. And then the other um uh the other one is uh Streptococtus uh thermo thermophilus. These are the two that are used in normal kind of higher temperature yogurts, like the one that you're doing.
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+[31:18] Now, the lactobacilica, the lactobacillus can like that strain can be either be a kind that produces uh extracellular ropey polysaccharides or one that produces smaller unit polysaccharides that don't form a ropey texture. Surprisingly, you actually want a bit of that ropiness, but you don't want so much of the ropiness that it becomes ropey. So uh the the trick there is um you're probably uh maybe uh doing it at a temperature that's favoring the uh the ropiness, or you're letting it go too long before you chill it down to fridge temperature to kind of stop that acceleration, and you're favoring the balance of the ropey uh ones over the other one. So you could just try switching your starter culture. Uh you could try making sure, like covering it, make sure you're not contaminated, uh, or you could try uh maybe shifting your temperature up a degree or two and then chilling it faster when you're done.
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+[32:10] I don't know if any of those are gonna work, but take a look into that. What do you guys think about that? Anything? Anything? You could try uh switching the milk source to the problem with milk source?
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+[32:20] Well, I mean it could be uh contamination that is existing in the milk before he starts. Well, you heats it up to 180. Most most everything is gonna most everything that's gonna produce a polysacchar like that's gonna croak out before 180. Yeah. Just thinking about uh eliminating uh potential sources of contamination first.
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+[32:41] True, true, true. Gotta eliminate contamination always. Uh okay. Um, second question. I'm also interested in making a lean bread, meaning, I guess, I guess by lean bread meaning only yeast, water, flour, uh salt.
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+[32:56] Um, like a French bowl, with about 50% of the flour as milled brewer's malt, both base malt and specialty kiln malts in order to pair with beers of similar grain bill. Would I need to kill any enzymes in the malt to make this work? Are there any different concerns with working with barley flowers? Any help is much appreciated. Uh okay, well, so this is this is interesting because um because there's people out there who cook with nothing but sprouted grains, right?
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+[33:25] And so presumably these have a lot of diastatic uh activity from the enzymes that they're converted when you sprout it. Uh you know, there's companies that produce a hundred percent sprouted things. Uh but then on the other hand, when you read recommendations for um for baking, if you're actually using diastatic malt powder, right, then they uh advise against not adding too much because then it's gonna convert too much of the starch to sugar and you'll get kind of gummy results in your bread. So I don't know where the balance lies. Because some people are using a hundred percent sprouted grains, and then some people are cautioning against using uh more than a small amount of uh of um you know uh diastatic malt powder.
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+[34:05] I will tell you this, from experience, barley loaves in general are dense little suckers. Uh, you know, they're they're dense it like a hundred percent barley loaves are some dense. And especially the barley that you're using in brewing hasn't been pearled, it's got the husk still on it, and that's gonna be like th like the the the part of the brand there is gonna be like a paparama on your on your gas cells and your bread. And so like if you're doing whole grain kind of unpearled uh barley, I'm assuming that you're gonna be in the area of some dents. Uh and so you're gonna wanna soak the hell out of them, uh, maybe soak them overnight and then grind them that way instead of instead of or maybe pre grinding them like you would for mashing, then uh let them soak in some water and then grinding them further so that the so that the husks have uh you know enough time to hydrate properly.
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+[34:56] Um so I you know, I I I'm kind of at a loss here. I've never done it, uh, but I'm assuming it'll work. Any of you guys have any thoughts? I mean Peter Reinhardt has a lot on sprouted uh sprouted wheat flour, um, but I don't have a lot, you know, the I don't have a lot on this. What do you guys have?
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+[35:14] Is it gonna increase your yeast activity significantly during the uh the rising? Hugely. I mean that's why you add diastatic malt powder in the first place, is to convert in a in a long fermentation time uh you know situation like in a sourdough or something that's gonna be retarded in the fridge. You want to have a uh you know a continual supply of yeast for I mean sugar for the yeast to feed on while they're doing their stuff. And so adding the you know, adding the diastatic malt uh will continuously break down like some of the starch a as a food for the yeast.
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+[35:46] You just don't want to overdo it. But then on the other hand, you have people baking bread that's a hundred percent with this stuff. So I'm gonna need some help from s from some some people out there. I don't know whether it's just a difference because there's so much more higher enzymatic activity in diastatic malt powder versus like your average sprouted grain. But you know, if you want the flavor, what I would do is I would kill off a section of the stuff and then have the like a section of your of your, you know, heat it, kill off a section of the end uh enzymatic activity, and then grind up some and leave it with the enzymatic activity.
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+[36:16] Um, naturally flour, when you have it, some of the stuff was sprouted because it's very rare for you to have, you know, completely uh pure flour. When they're measuring the strength of flour, they use something called the falling number where they take up make a warm slurry of flour and they drop a rod through it and determine how fast it goes down. And what that's a measure of is how much residual enzymatic activity there is in the flour and therefore how much viscosity is broken down by uh the amylase is working on uh the flowers as they're there, but it's not a number that most of us have in it. I wish I had more information on this, but um go take a look at um go take a look at anything that Peter uh Reinhardt has written. He's written a lot of excellent books on bread and he's become over the past couple of years uh kind of a proponent of using sprouted grain uh flowers, so he might have more information.
+
+[36:59] And uh there's a good section on the technical uh uh aspects of flour on bread, a baker's book of techniques and recipes by Jeffrey Hamelman, and a lot of that one's available in Amazon search inside, so you can go to that. Uh lastly, uh Adam Milgram writes in on food safety. Hey Nastasha, Dave and the team, I was wondering if you could help me work out uh if there is a way to tell definitively if something lurking in the back of my fridge is okay to eat or to do something to make it safe. Two recent examples. I had some chicken stock in there for two plus weeks, and it looked and smelled fine, but the prevailing wisdom on the internet is that it only lasts for three to five days.
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+[37:37] Three or five days seems kind of short, but two weeks plus, man. Okay. The other was stewed fruit. Again, smelled fine and no signs of mold or anything, but I have no idea how long it's been hanging around, maybe a month. Is there a process you can do to render anything safe?
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+[37:50] Uh e.g. bring it to X temperature for Y minutes, so that all you need to worry about is taste, or are there other nasties that I need to worry about? Finally, is there any way to test things that you can't easily heat, e.g., mayo, cheese, hummus, etc. FYI, my wife is pregnant. So food safety is becoming an increasingly important issue recently.
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+[38:08] Thank you for your help and your awesome podcast. Adam. Now listen, Adam, when your wife is pregnant, don't fool around. Forget the stewed fruit. Just pitch all that crap.
+
+[38:19] Go crazy. Go ape in your kitchen. You know what I mean? It's like, here's the thing. Like m m most likely nothing is gonna ever happen to you.
+
+[38:27] However, like now is not the time where you want an incautious food mistake to c you know, cause a problem when your wife is pregnant. You guys backing me up on this? I love how close to the edge this dude lives. Yeah, right? I mean, like he's like, Yeah, I got a pregnant wife, I got this like three-week old chicken stock.
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+[38:44] Yeah. Get the new chicken stock. I'm just saying. Like, I went kind of over the topic because, you know, like the consequences of making a mistake at that point are like, you know, I bleached it, I bleached the hell out of everything whenever I was cooking the one good thing, by the way, uh, I would just say there's a pitch, and I've said this before on the show many times. If you don't already own a circulator, when uh when you or your or your wife uh are or you know, close family member are pregnant is the best time to get a circulator if you don't already have it, because then you can still have your rare steaks and you can still have your uh runny poached eggs even when you're pregnant because you can cook them to a hundred percent food safety.
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+[39:23] Just a little pitch for getting a circulator, right? Anyway. I mean I used to do that whenever I didn't have a circulator. I think I had a circulator when my second son was born, so I made that stuff for my wife. But I made that stuff, you know, for anyway, I make that stuff for pregnant people because that's that's awesome.
+
+[39:35] It's an awesome awesome little trick uh to help pregnant people uh keep a little bit of uh food normalcy in their life. Okay. Uh now back to your question at hand. Here's the issue. Um most bacteria uh don't like to uh grow in the refrigerator.
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+[39:50] And in fact, like that the temperature zone for the refrigerator is chosen such that uh you know things don't grow in it or they don't grow in it very rapidly. Now there are bacteria that do grow in the fridge uh that are known to grow in the fridge. Listeria is one of them. And listeria is one of the ones that you really, really, really, really, really don't want to expose your wife to when she's pregnant. Uh now the lucky thing about listeria is that if you take something out of your fridge that's in there, right, and it's had listeria growing on it, then you can uh kill it, wipe it out by just heating the crap out of it, right?
+
+[40:26] Because listeria doesn't produce any uh any anything that can survive heating. It doesn't produce a toxin uh that you know that that you know that stays in the food after it's been heated. So all you need to do is heat it sufficiently to destroy the listeria, and then that food is fine. The problem is going to be with things that produ there's so there are certain uh bacteria that produce enterotoxins, things that you take into your body that uh the that are an actual chemical that causes food poisoning that aren't just uh you know the effect of having uh uh you know the actual uh bacteria inside of you. And some of those are destroyed by heat and some aren't, right?
+
+[41:05] And the the the further complication is is that there are certain strains of some of these bacteria that normally don't grow in the fridge, but uh that there are certain strains that will grow, albeit very slowly, in a fridge. And so if you push something for a long time, right, you know, you can uh get into a situation where these things can grow to levels that are problematic for you. Now, um the the general term for bacteria that grow in the fridge at low temperatures is cycrophilic. I don't know why they call it cycrophilic and not cryophilic or something like that, but it's called cyclophilic because I guess that's the Greek for cold or something like that. Uh and psychophilic bacteria are the ones that ruin your milk, right?
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+[41:48] Even though it's in the fridge, the milk goes bad, those are psychophilic. Those are spoilage bacteria. They're not gonna they're not gonna hurt you. The dangerous ones though are a subsection of the psychophilic bacteria that are called uh psychotrophic. And the thing with those is is that they are actually mesophilic bacteria, ones that grow in kind of normal temperature ranges, that can also retain some of their uh uh their their nasty growing habits in the fridge.
+
+[42:13] And those guys, there are strains of those from your common ones that we always get. For instance, um uh there's a uh uh there's a paper you should take a look at called The Incidence of Foodborne Pathogens in Domesticated Refrigerators. Uh domestic uh not domesticated, that'd be crazy. Like you have a wild refrigerator and a domesticated refrigerator. What am I a dunce?
+
+[42:33] Anyway, domestic refrigerators uh by V Jackson, 2007. Here's what it said. The interior services of household refrigerators are at risk of becoming contaminated with food-borne pathogens, increasing the risk of cross-contamination to other food items, including higher to r uh higher risk ready to eat foods. Um, so they they went and they looked at 342 uh domestic refrigerators, and uh here's what they had to say. Camphylobacter, salmonella, and achuria coli uh O157H7 were not recovered from any refrigerators.
+
+[43:02] But Staphylococcus aureus, which produces uh a, by the way, a uh non-heat labile um uh enterotoxin, was uh recovered from 6.4% of the refrigerators, the stereal monocytogenes uh and uh regular kind of E. coli uh from 1.2% of refrigerators, uh Yersinia and uh enteracolic uh and I can't pronounce it, your ursinia, right, from 0.6% of the uh uh refrigerators. Uh and as a result, uh and as recovered species can survive and grow in refrigerations or conditions of mild temperature abuse, such pathogens may transfer to and develop to clinically significant numbers uh in food in domestic fridges. So they can grow a little bit, so I wouldn't, but again, these are like ones that are sitting there and they can form kind of biofilms and get together with the you know the normal uh pseudomonas, which are like you know, the ones that ruin your milk. Uh and so I would just be wary of uh, you know, most these things aren't going to kill you, but you don't want to give them to your to your wife, you know.
+
+[44:01] Uh in addition, I did some more research and some of the like if you have like temperature abused rice, you can get uh B serious, Bacillus serious, which is one of my favorite words for a pathogen. Uh and that, apparently some strains of it can grow at low temperature. So you really just want to I I wouldn't mess around. What do you guys think? Don't mess around, right?
+
+[44:19] Get a chest freezer. Get a chest freezer, freeze the hell out of everything. But cooking the snot out of everything will get rid of anything that will actually kill you. I don't believe the enterotoxins do life-threatening stuff, but you don't want to, but don't take my word for it. I also everyone hesitates to make uh kind of like pronouncements on things like that where you know safety is a giant issue.
+
+[44:39] Oh, okay. Now back to before we leave, because we're about to leave here, cutting it short so that these guys don't sweat themselves to death. What is it that I'm gonna do? Like what like we gotta decide this right now. Like if we make if we make ninety thousand I got some ideas.
+
+[44:52] Yeah, I guess I I guess I could do the lemonade cleanse, but that's just that's just an absurdity. That's just a physical challenge. I don't have to learn any new cooking techniques or do anything kind of interesting. It's not like going raw vegan. I mean, that was kind of the be all end all, huh?
+
+[45:04] I mean, I can do that again. There's gotta be some fad diets, right? Like paleo, you know, I think online paleo. I've been looking at it. I don't know, man.
+
+[45:13] You tell me, brother. There's um there's also stuff like the baby food diet. Uh what the hell is that? Uh I guess you uh you replace two meals a day with jars of baby food. Um, but that's just absurd.
+
+[45:26] That's not like that's not like a challenge. It's just ridiculous. That's just like, you know, can I eat something that tastes bad? Well, it's also, I mean, you're you're doing some investigation into a diet that actually has some traction with some people in the US. Should we do paleo?
+
+[45:40] Is paleo difficult to s to stick to, though, or is it easy to stick to? Uh do you know what's in the paleo diet? It's like mostly raw meat, I think. All right, here's the thing. All right.
+
+[45:49] Uh if we hit 90,000, I'm gonna do paleo for a week. If we hit a hundred thousand, I'm gonna do paleo for a week, and then lemonade cleanse for a week. If we do a hundred and ten thousand dollars, I'm gonna do raw vegan again for a week, paleo for a week, and lemonade cleanse for a week. You got that, guys? Is that sound fair?
+
+[46:06] Yeah, you'll be at your ideal weight in no time. So the question is you have to do it in order. Like what the worst order would be to do lemonade cleanse, then raw vegan. No, the worst would be worse would be raw vegan, then uh paleo, then lemonade cleanse. Right?
+
+[46:22] That would just be like my body'd be like, what? What? Um, uh, or this is the first time you're tuning in, whatever. I never, never, never welch on a bet. Let me tell you something.
+
+[46:36] I take bets very seriously. If I say something like this, I'm not gonna I'm not that guy who's gonna sneak in some real people food in the middle of my like raw vegan week or the middle of my paleo week, right? Like that's not that's not my style. I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna go ape on it, I'm gonna report it back on cooking issues. So tell everyone that you want me to suffer for uh maximum three weeks straight on this.
+
+[47:00] And let's get some money in, let's get this thing kickstarted, let's get our stuff going. It's important for the museum, which hopefully is gonna be important to all of us in the years rolling forward. Uh thanks for stopping by, guys, and cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[47:29] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairway market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadion Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Bubba Bubba Ba Bub Bushwick! Yes, we're bubba back. Hey Stas, how are you doing? Okay. Yeah?
+
+[0:41] Uh-huh. Good to have us all here. At the air conditioning, they must have fixed it, huh? Yeah, for you. Oh, nice, just for me.
+
+[0:47] Stas like for me, they just let me sweat my took a salt. Hey, hey, and the engineering guys, we're all here today. How you guys doing? We're good. I'm speaking for everybody.
+
+[0:55] We're good. Oh, nice. I like to speak for everyone over there. Listen, so since we last spoke on the air, Mofad made its uh goal on the Kickstarter. Yay!
+
+[1:08] Uh yeah, in fact, we made it through it. And if you go to the Kickstarter page, you can see uh what we did, and our numbers were actually slightly better than that because a couple of um people donated from foundations, uh, you know, personal foundations that can only give checks. So I think it's there too. I'm super excited. And what that means is that in late August, uh we are actually gonna wheel this sucker out and uh gonna blow some stuff up on the streets, you know, in front of the kids.
+
+[1:34] Kids love the blowing up stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And uh we're gonna have when's the puffing party. Do you remember Stas? Yes, August 13th.
+
+[1:39] Yeah, and there's uh I believe that there's still space available. I don't know how we're gonna sell it. Go to MoFad.org. That's MoFed.org for more information. But it should be fun.
+
+[1:47] We got a whole bunch of Andy Rickers gonna be there. A lot of good people. Is Why are they coming? Uh yeah. I think so.
+
+[1:53] Anyway, a lot of good people are coming. I don't want to meet if I start mentioning people, then uh you mention me, man, me, so I'm not gonna mention anyone, right? Okay. Corner question two, seven one eight, four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[2:04] By the way, uh, we made good enough numbers on it that I have to do that lemonade cleanse. We now yeah, anyone what's the exact deal on the lemonade cleanse? It's uh two tablespoons fresh squeezed lemon juice. Yeah. Two tablespoons of maple syrup.
+
+[2:17] Yeah, uh one tenth teaspoon cayenne pepper, and ten ounces filtered water. You have to drink it six or more servings daily. The only other options are a salt water flush of two teaspoons salt mixed in a quart of water in the morning, and herbal laxative tea at night if needed. Where do you where do you flush that? Is that go in the in the front end or in the back end of the salt water flush?
+
+[2:37] After this, you should slowly ease back into eating solid food, starting with items such as vegetable soup, followed by fruits and vegetables. Oh my gracious. How long do they say to do it? Four to fourteen days. Ah, so I'm right in the sweet spot there.
+
+[2:49] Seven days in the sweet spot. That's gonna suck. So uh uh Stas and I have to figure out uh kind of a week where I don't have to do any cocktail development and where I have no demos. I think it's next week because everybody at MoFad's starting theirs next week. And you don't have anything next week.
+
+[3:05] I have no I have no demos, no nothing, so I'll do all my cocktail development and all that this week. Make sure I don't have any uh dinner engagements to go to. You still have to do the radio show though. Yeah. Oh yeah, I'll be in the middle of uh of a uh maybe I'll start Monday.
+
+[3:18] That you're starting paleo next week. No, no, I can't start paleo in a week because I have to do a lot of research. Back to this, I'm taking paleo much more seriously than most idiots are gonna take paleo. So, like I already dusted off my old book on flint mapping, which is the technique of making stone tools. And I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of paleo you want to go.
+
+[3:36] It's kind of absurd to just say something is paleo because paleolithic people ate a wide variety of things depending on where they lived, what the climate was, etc. So, for instance, if you're gonna take the Neanderthal culture, Neanderthal culture, primarily meat eating culture, although they did have a wide range of plants that they used. I was reading all the recent literature on um studies of the dental calculus of Neanderthals, uh plus isotopic studies of their bone structure to figure out the relative uh kind of different things that they ate. Uh also huge chunks of Neanderthal ate the meat kind of raw, which is straight up nasty. Like, imagine giant chunks of kind of raw like deer, not like thin carpaccio stuff.
+
+[4:13] Anyway, so uh I might tr choose a culture to emulate like uh like there's the uh airtaburla culture, which is like a Swedish culture that was one of the last um, you know, pre-agricultural communities in Europe. They had a fairly high fish-based diet, uh, and their tools look relatively easy to manufacture. Anyway, I dusted off the flint napping. Flintnapping, I gotta learn how to I'm gonna learn how to make my own uh tools. I meant to do it with Dax a while ago, but it just looks too damn complicated.
+
+[4:40] Now I guess I have a reason to do it. So I have to do a bunch of research before I can do the actual paleo one. We're gonna have to same with the raw food. Remember, I did raw food? Uh for like like very short, almost had to do the raw food again.
+
+[4:52] I'm glad I didn't have that one added to it. So I'm gonna do the lemonade cleanse first because I don't have to do any research for that one. Right? Mm-hmm. So more anyone has any suggestions on uh on the paleo.
+
+[5:02] Uh I kind of want to make my own fire as well as my own tools, but my wife said that uh I couldn't do that, so I don't know whether I'm either gonna have to convince her in slow drips and drabs to let me do it or not. Um but anyway, so uh more more word on exactly kind of which Paleolithic uh diet. Uh luckily, these air these uh air tabola guys, a lot looked up the list of plant stuff that's been found in their kitchen mid insights. They ate a lot of shellfish, easy for me to get, but also a lot of plants that I can wild forage in uh the Lower East Side. Like uh they ate a variant of Lamb's Quarters, which I can easily get in the Lower East Side as a as a non-domesticated product.
+
+[5:36] Well, we'll see. We'll figure I'll figure out exactly what the structure is. Um so yeah, so I can't do paleo next week. Okay. That's the that's the the previous was the long explanation of why I can't do paleo next week.
+
+[5:48] Because I want to do it right. If I do it right, it's useful information for us to have for the museum anyway. So there you go. Okay. So real quick from the station too.
+
+[5:55] Yeah we've got our huge fundraiser on August 11th, so I hope that the Cooking Issues fans in New York can make it. But for those that can't, and I know this is a very nationwide show, we're offering a really, really cool raffle. Ten dollar tickets, and you can win a dream foodie trip to Seattle. All expenses paid uh from Tom Douglas, friend of the station. He's got some great restaurants out there.
+
+[6:17] So uh visit our website or HRN Hawaii BBQ.eventbrite.com and get some raffle tickets. Get all over the place. Hawaii barbecue and trip to Seattle. Yeah, well, you know. It's the Hawaii like the West.
+
+[6:30] No, they're on the way, kind of. I I guess it's on the way. Can you go direct? Can you go direct if they if they want to? Probably.
+
+[6:37] Probably. Anyway. All right, quote your question is two. 718497, 2128, that's 784972128. Aaron Morin, it's looks like it's pronounced Morant, but they said more and from Ed uh Edmonton, uh, Alberta, uh, writes in, Dear Zappo's lover and rap hater.
+
+[6:51] So I would be rap hater and Stas would be Zappa's lover. Although I have to say, for the record, like I tease her about Zappos, but she is a firmly committed to the Payless Shoe Corporation. She purchases all of her shoes from the pay. You know why? She loves that uncured glue smell that they have inside of the pay list.
+
+[7:08] I mean, like you any anytime you walk into it, you could blindfold someone and and like throw them in the middle of a payless store and they'd be like, payless. Because, you know, part of the part of the thing, you know, that part of the way you pay less is they don't wait for the glue to dry before they ship the shoes out. You know what I'm saying? And Style just grooves on that, you know. She doesn't she doesn't, you know, she doesn't like the other toxic uh kind of female things like nail polish and all that stuff.
+
+[7:33] I never smell that stuff in the office. But payless, boom. Okay. Uh anyway. Uh I'd love to hear Dave talk about micron sizes and how they affect texture on the tongue.
+
+[7:42] I seem to remember hearing that we can detect as little as 50 microns, uh, but that could be way off. What's the difference between a 400 micron super bag and a 100 one? Why wouldn't you just use a 100 bag for everything? What's cheese uh straining usually at as far as microns are concerned? Thanks in advance, Aaron uh Morin.
+
+[7:59] Okay. First of all, uh so m micron is a unit of measure. Uh a micron is one thousandth of a millimeter, also called uh a mic uh micrometer, micro, you know, anyway. So uh but microns are typically how you measure things like very small sieves, uh, you know, sieves, sieves. What do you like?
+
+[8:18] Civ or sieve? Civ. Sieve? Yeah, okay. Uh and uh also like particle size and things like ice cream or chocolate.
+
+[8:26] Now, I have always kind of used as my benchmark for ultimate smoothness on the tongue, uh, this size range that's used in chocolate manufacturer. In chocolate manufacturer, you typically want to get below uh twenty microns, right? So twenty-one thousandths of a millimeter is about the ultimate large size particle that you want in your chocolate bar before your chocolate bar starts having textural problems on the tongue, right? This stuff being kind of ultra smooth. And so that's kind of the the the number I always use for kind of below which your tongue can't taste anything anymore.
+
+[9:02] Now, in ice cream, a lot of people point to larger numbers like 40 microns as being the maximum ice crystal size that they want in a smooth textured ice cream. I haven't done a lot of studying on that because I've always just accepted that the 20 micron as being the number. Now, Vitaprep, which is the blender that we use, can get particle sizes down between 20 and 40 microns, so in the smooth-ish range, but not in the like I doubt if you can actually get to 20. But it's a it's above 20, but it's quite small. I doubt it can get it can't get below 20 to get into the much much smoother range of stuff.
+
+[9:40] So for that you need um for that you need uh like a high shear, super high shear mixer. But the other thing about it uh with a Vitapep is you still need to use a sieve or like a super bag, as you say, because not all of the particles uh get you know blended down to the same thing, especially fibers tend to orient as they go, and so you have longer and larger particles that you can taste on the tongue. Now, uh so clearly if if if 40 microns is the cutoff for ice crystals and uh and your smallest super bag is 100 microns, uh you're not gonna get all of the particles out of something that's finely blended with a hundred micron super bag. The other problem is is that uh when you put a slurry or a slop or something into into a filter, it tends to clog up the filter. Um, and and that is kind of one of the main problems in filtration.
+
+[10:28] Just for your edification as well, just so you can get an idea of micron size. Uh, coffee filters in general are about 20 microns, the opening, and they let through particles uh, you know, are in the roughly 10 to 15 uh micron range. So that's kind of what what coffee is. So you're talking about chocolate 20 microns, ice cream crystals, 40 microns, coffee filter, 20 microns, and super bag like the finest one at 100. Now, just because it's a hundred microns, which is large relative to some of these things, doesn't mean it can't strain out a lot of finer things.
+
+[11:02] Because in general, when you're cooking something, you uh things tend to aggregate, particles tend to aggregate together, and also larger particles tend to start clogging up the holes, and when that happens, finer particles get filtered out by the larger things. It's called forming a filter bed. So you want to use in general the coarsest uh thing that makes your product as smooth as you want it. Is that make sense to us? Uh-huh.
+
+[11:27] Right. And so one of the reasons to use multiple filters in a situation, right, is if you were to try and shove a liquid through a coffee filter, which is at 20 microns, right, uh, and it's all full of gloppy stuff. Let me just tell you, good luck. Because you're gonna be there all freaking day, right? Trying to get that stuff out of there.
+
+[11:45] So one valid way to do it would be to take a and by the way, one of the advantages of super bags is that you the super bags are kind of shaped like pots and they can withstand heat. So you just stick the super bag into the pot, cook the stuff in without ever agitating it, so you're not knocking little particles all around your product, and then you can just lift the whole sucker out and not have a problem. Now, why you might want to use multiple ones is you would put the coarse one inside of the fine one, right? And then as you lifted it, right, larger particles would be held by back by the faster draining coarse guy, and then smaller particles will be held up in the uh finer guy, and you would be able to filter stuff much more quickly. So it often when I'm filtering something, I'll take two different levels of filtration and stack them coarse first, then fine, because it just rapidly increases the rate at which you can filter things, and that's a huge deal when you're doing large quantities of product that take a long time to filter.
+
+[12:40] Um anyway, like uh actually it's interesting. I just wrote the section of the cocktail book on kind of clarification and I went through filtration, which I really hate. I really hate filtering things. Um I also tend and you know, I've never actually used, and this is a little, you know, whatever disclaimer, I've never used the actual expensive super bags. I always use paint straining bags, which are also micron rated, because as anyone that's met me knows, I'm a cheap bastard, right?
+
+[13:09] That's very true. Super cheap. Well, of course, no one's cheaper than Nastasha. That's not true. Uh you are.
+
+[13:14] Uh I'm not cheaper than you. You are so much cheaper than that. When was the last time I returned a piece of clothing? Yeah, that's a not that's not cheapness, that's something else. I don't know what I'm talking about.
+
+[13:22] All right, right. Fair enough. Okay. Uh Matthew writes in regarding pork rinds. Hey, Nastasha and crew.
+
+[13:27] I had a drink of booker in Dax for the first time recently. Tried the hatchback and it was killer, strong and delicious. Uh I wouldn't be mad if I had a stockpile of those and the uh bottle of Manhattan's up in my refrigerator. I was uh and then here's the question. Well, thank you.
+
+[13:39] Uh I was wondering if it is possible to make a puffed chicharron from bacon skin. My company goes through boatloads of slab bacon every week, and besides making stock with the skin, I'd be thrilled to find another use. Thanks, Matthew. I don't see why you can't uh do it. I mean, what I would do is uh cut off the skins, right?
+
+[13:56] The only issue you're gonna have is if you have a cure that has a lot of sugar in it. Sugar is the enemy of uh pork rinds. And many, many times I've uh made pork rinds. A couple of times I've tried to add sugar to the boil water when you when you make it, and it's just a freaking nightmare. It's just a it's just a real giant nightmare.
+
+[14:15] So if you want to make uh kind of American snack food style pork rinds, here's what you're gonna want to do. Uh cut the um, you know, take the bacon uh skins off. You're gonna want to boil them in water. I don't know how much salt you're gonna have to add, depends on the residual salt level of your bacon, but you want uh you know enough salt in there so that when you puff them, you don't have to add a lot of extra salt and the flavor's already in the skin. Uh you might want to add a couple cubes of bacon or whatever to keep the smoky flavor, or else keep the water level down so you're not diluting the smoke uh that's in the in the skins too much.
+
+[14:47] Uh you want to cook them for a long time, uh like 45 minutes or something like that. Simmer them till you because the what the goal here is to convert all of the collagen or roughly all of the collagen to gelatin. Now, here comes the part that I hate doing. You gotta gently drain them off because they're right now because they're hot gelatin with a little bit of pro other stuff mixed in uh and fat, they're extremely fragile at this point. So you want to let drain them off and then uh put them on uh cooling racks and cool them down until they are fridge temperature.
+
+[15:20] Let them cool. They will reset and become a lot less fragile. Now, the super unpleasant part, you flip them fat side up and you scrape down the excess fat on the back side of the uh of the pork rind of the pork skin. Now, if you don't scrape the less scrape uh fat you scrape off, the denser your chicharron will be. And the more you scrape off down to the skin, don't scrape the skin, but the fat layer, the the uh more you scrape off, the puffier and more like snack bag pork rinds your pork rinds are gonna be.
+
+[15:53] After you uh do that, after you scrape it down, now you want to chop them into the size. Everyone makes them a little bit larger, but they don't realize quite how much they're gonna puff when they puff up. Uh so you know, make a couple different sizes the first time you do it, so you can kind of see what's going to go on. Now you're gonna want to dehydrate them. The real trick here is not to over dehydrate.
+
+[16:12] You want to dehydrate them until they're down to like a shrinky dink or like pasta and and no more. So what you do is you throw them in a dehydrator. I throw them in, usually I start them kind of high, like at 135 degrees Fahrenheit, run the dehydrator for a while, and I look at it. When it starts losing the white rawhide look and starts starts going translucent, I usually turn the temperature down, and then um I never let them run when I'm gone from the kitchen. I'd rather just do the initial dehydration and kind of turn it off overnight or turn it down to like a hundred or ninety overnight or something like that, and just let it run with the fan on it and not extra heating, and it should carry it the rest of the way.
+
+[16:49] Do a test fry. Uh, and once you do a test fry on one or two, uh if it if when you fry it, it doesn't puff at all and just browns without puffing. What's happened is is you've over dehydrated it and you need to get some moisture back into it, which is very difficult. If you if it puffs somewhat but the inside has a hard kernel in it, then it's not dehydrated enough yet, and you have to do more. So you gotta you gotta you know just run that test.
+
+[17:14] Once you do it once or twice, you'll get the exact feel of what the pork rind should feel like when they're done. Uh, and then you just store them in a quart container or airtight, and they're good for a long time until they until they go rancid, they last for a long time, they last for a long time, a long, long time. Uh but uh what I would do is do it once or twice yourself and then get someone else to do it because uh it sucks. Yeah? Remember how like our hand I mean, maybe it's better with bacon, but you remember how like we would all stink stas like like pork skin?
+
+[17:43] Yes, like a freaking glue factory? Yes. It's nasty. Anyway, let's take a commercial break, coming back with cooking issues. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets.
+
+[18:04] I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for thirty-seven years. So it's a feta compli for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market dot com.
+
+[18:42] EO Jack, did he say idiot career? Um yes, he did. This is Joe, but he uh yeah, I think he's got a little self-deprecating streak in there, right? Yeah, no, newfound respect. I love someone who calls their actually quite influential.
+
+[18:56] I mean the man has a hugely influential uh has had a hugely huge influence on the cheese on the cheese movement here in the US. I mean giant influence. Yeah, I would I mean I personally would not say it's an idiot career, but um, you know, I'm not him. I mean I'm I'm kind of glad he had that that career. I mean people people nowadays because like you know, er like you know, y it's not easy, but you can go out and get, you know, decent cheese in many, many places across the country now.
+
+[19:21] Forget that when he first wrote his cheese primer, you know, Fairway. There was a number of places you could buy high quality cheese in in New York, but even a lot of the places that had large selections weren't keeping the stuff as well as they were keeping it at Fairway. They weren't providing uh a product kind of a as the same quality level Fairway was providing. This is like decades ago. And so he you know, he wrote the cheese primers kind of a game changer, big deal.
+
+[19:45] Anyway, my feeling. Uh Brandon Hodgins writes in about Bratwurst. You like some bratwurst, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, Bratwurst good stuff.
+
+[19:53] When you uh were at uh where'd you go when you went to Germany? You went to Germany. October is you had a lot of Wurst? Mm-hmm. God, I love German Wurst.
+
+[20:01] Something about German Wurst, they they can get the you know, the skins on them, they pop when you pipe into them, and then that explosion of juice and fat from a delicious Wurst. Oh my god. So good. Anyone that hates on uh kind of Teutonic cuisine, German cuisine, like, okay, if you're not a sausage lover, or if you don't like cartoon poofers or like potato pancakes, or you don't like a bit, but stuff is straight up delicious. I'm sorry.
+
+[20:25] I'm sorry. Uh okay. Hello, cooking issues team. I had a few brats questions. How many brats per zippy?
+
+[20:31] In other words, if you're going to cook bratwurst uh low temperature and you're gonna pre-cook them in a Ziploc bag, which is something I very highly recommend, right? How many can you fit in? Well, I guess it depends on exactly how what size the brats uh are, but I would guess uh and also depends on how you're gonna serve. If you plan on doing mass service out, then I usually put like uh I want to say five probably. I use gallon size bags, like five or six.
+
+[20:55] I can't try to imagine how many brats would fit you. You can only fit one in in a direction, you know what I'm saying, Stas? Like you can't fit two. So you probably five or six, maybe, then a little bit of uh oil or fat, and then do the water seal on the brats, cook them off at like uh sixty, I usually do sixty uh Celsius, which is like 140 Fahrenheit, which is still like you know, pinkish and a little underdone, but remember you're going to grill them off when you're done. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:22] Um so I would say about that. And how long can I hold them in a bath before the texture goes off? Long time on bratwurst. You can hold those suckers a long time. I mean, I've never h held them longer than uh a whole service, which is like you know, uh six hours or something like that.
+
+[21:37] But I'm sh uh but they at the end they were just as good as they were at the beginning. So, in other words, uh uh for those of you that don't know, when you're doing low temperature cooking and you're holding meat for a long time, it doesn't overcook in a traditional sense, it doesn't get tough or dry. What happens is the texture gets a little bit mushy. Uh and I haven't had that happen in like the length of a service when I'm cooking something like uh like brats, you know. And they also initially think about brats, they cook through rather quickly because they're not that thick.
+
+[22:04] Do you know what I'm saying? Uh so that it it's a fantastic thing to do, just get a grill like a billion freaking degrees, and then uh and then have your your brats and zippies and and and go. Okay. Uh, but I will also say this if you want to do more traditional, or in other words, if you don't want to use zippies for whatever reason, you can actually cook brats off in a circulator in an open bath style, but even if you're gonna do beer brats, right? What I recommend doing is uh pre-make uh kind of a beer stock out of it, so just get some like uh like sacrifice a couple of the bratwurst bratwurst, break them up and cook them off in the beer so that the beer soaks up brat flavor, and then uh eventually the broth gets to the point where it's not adding or subtracting bratness from the bratwurst because I remember once uh I forget who it was.
+
+[22:53] Do you remember? Were you with me at the time, Stas, when I had to do the hot dog water thing for some magazine? What magazine was that? Some magazine was like, hey, is the hot dog water in uh in a in a New York City dirty dog? Is that safe?
+
+[23:04] Is it safe? So I went and um, you know, we gave the guy like two bucks or something like that, and I was like, I don't want a hot dog, just give me a cup of your hot dog water, please. And the guy was like, two bucks is two bucks. So he hands us a cup of the hot dog water. First thing we did is shove the thermometer in it to determine that in fact it is at a safe holding temperature, right?
+
+[23:20] Uh and then I drank it to see kind of what I thought the flavor uh stuff was, you know, the flavor profile was gonna change with a hot dog based on holding it in the water. And the good news from a flavor standpoint is that because the guy was cooking hot dogs all day, the broth tasted more like a hot dog than a straight hot dog did. It was crazy. It was like it was like the liquid essence of hot dog, much better than when the interns made that hot dog vodka, which sucked. Okay.
+
+[23:42] But the um so anyway, so uh that's another uh thing you can circulate, just put like a wrap some cheesecloth around your circulator in case something breaks, you don't want to get it sucked in, uh, and circulate uh circulate beer or you know, brat stock, and then you can keep it in that. And the good news with that is you don't need to bust open these bags all the time, and you can just take, you know, you load brats in one side, load them out the other, and that's the way I would do it if you're gonna do, let's say 400. You know what I mean? In in a day or something like that. Because then you just have your trough running, you load in the front, just keep pushing FIFO.
+
+[24:16] By the time you pull the ones out of the front, the ones in the back are cooked out and you're good to go. Yeah? Make sense? Okay. What is my favorite sauerkraut?
+
+[24:23] Well, uh, I mean, my favorite purchased sauerkraut is that you can get in any kind of supermarket, well, any supermarket, in like Whole Foods is uh Bubbies. I think Bubby's is delicious sauerkraut. You guys like Bubbies out there? Yeah, I'm getting some nods, getting some nods. Bubby's delicious sauerkraut.
+
+[24:41] Uh the pickle guys, there's a couple, there's I live in the lower east side of New York, so there's a bunch of uh, you know, there's a couple pickle places, and the pickle guys, which are on Essex Street and uh just south of Grand, also have a delicious sauerkraut, which they sell by the court. I love that stuff. Sauerkraut, also extremely easy to make yourself. Um, anyone who's ever tasted an actual straight fermented, non-pasteurized, i.e., never heated, with no preservatives added, uh, sauerkraut, hasn't tasted uh sauerkraut the way I like it. Now I like traditional, like kind of like chakrote where they cook the stuff off with pork and all that crap, but just like a super fresh, and this is the one raw food thing that I was actually happy to eat when I was on my raw food diet, was like pounds and pounds of uh kind of unpasteurized, uncooked uh new kraut they call it's pretty fresh.
+
+[25:31] You don't need to soak it before it doesn't have a lot of salt in it. Uh it has enough salt to you know make it sauerkraut, but anyway, so uh look for Bubbies, and if you taste Bubbies, you know what I like, and then you know, find other ones or make ones uh like yourself. You know what's strange, Sas? I actually like uh, you know, I've made red cabbage sauerkraut and uh white cabbage sauerkraut. I think I I prefer I prefer the white.
+
+[25:51] Do you prefer white cabbage to red cabbage? Yeah, I do. I think it tastes better. That's my feeling. Anyway, okay.
+
+[25:58] Uh Tom Fisher writes in regarding ice cream. Uh dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack Joe. Uh first, congratulations on funding the Mofad Kickstarter. Can't wait to get my puff pack this fall. Me neither.
+
+[26:10] Jen's like, my my wife, she kicked in money aside from me. She's like, I want my t-shirt and tote bag. You wait you're gonna Stas is just gonna Staz is gonna like just stockpile those things like a like a like a chipmunk. She's gonna like stuff them in her cheeks like a chipmunk. Oh, speaking of uh Booker's hamster died.
+
+[26:26] Yeah, I know. That's sad, right? Yeah, yeah, kid's first pet dead. Okay. Uh how do I get into that?
+
+[26:33] It's nothing to do with cooking. Okay. I'm a big fan of ice creams and have been making much more since I've got my centerfuge and can make much fresher tasting juices for ice cream without chunks of fruit. Does anyone really like chunky ice cream, Stas, do you? No.
+
+[26:45] You know what's uh disappointing is like, do you like here's the thing like I want to like things that have like chunks of fruit in, but texturally they're irritating. You know what I mean? Those chunks because they're always kind of stringy. And then they that little gummy thing separates off from the fruit where the fruit and the ice cream mix. And Nastash is making her her chunky ice cream face very closely related to her vegan face.
+
+[27:04] Extremely closely related. Only a real conycente of of Stas's uh nasty faces uh can tell the difference between the chunky ice cream face and the vegan face. Uh anyway, I'm curious about flavoring ice cream with fruit juices. I assume the citrus ice creams won't work due to high acid content. Is there a way around this?
+
+[27:22] Is there any technical reason there aren't more diversity in ice cream flavors? I never see watermelon, pomegranate, grape, apple, cherry, blackberry, or blueberry ice creams. Is this just for historical cultural reasons, or is there any reason these fruits won't work? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Well, uh, I mean, so if you want to look, don't look to ice cream, right, for what you're talking about.
+
+[27:41] Look to uh Sherbet. You like Sherbet, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, it's good, right? And I think one of the reasons is a lot of the flavors that you're talking about, if you're gonna make uh a highly flavored item, you're gonna have to add so much of that juice that there's not enough room left in the liquid base of your ice cream to man to make it uh ice cream anymore, right?
+
+[28:02] So I mean, you know, if a traditional ice cream texture, you know, is for me, uh, you know, half, you know, ha like 500 mils milk, five hundred mil uh mils cream, uh, 10 egg yolks, and 170 grams of sugar plus flavor, right? So if you were how are you gonna do that when you're adding a lot of fruit juice to it, unless you're using uh concentrates. And if you're using concentrates, you can get away with it, and I've done that quite a bit. Like you can, I mean, okay, whatever. I know this is gonna sound like you know, real kind of lowbrow, but if you go buy Welch's uh grape concentrate in the store, it's an extremely high bricks, like 66.
+
+[28:38] You can c you can formulate a fairly good straight ice cream out of that uh by uh upping the cream content. It has a little bit lower milk solids, but whatever. So but traditionally the milk based product that you make um with high fruit contents are sherbets, and they have all of those different flavors in them, and they have milk. The trick is adding your acidic products right uh right before you freeze. Because uh you what you don't want to have happen is you don't want the uh the milk might curdle, whatever, but you don't want it to curdle and form large particles uh in it before you uh churn it, right?
+
+[29:13] The other alternative uh you could do, which tastes delicious, but please don't freaking call it ice cream, is like a froyo thing where the whole thing's already set. Don't you hate it when people try their like they're like this stuff tastes like ice cream? No, it doesn't, it tastes like frozen yogurt, which is delicious, but it's not ice cream. Freaking hate that stuff? No tangents.
+
+[29:29] I like ice cream. I like your I like froyo though. Yes. Do you like froy? Yes, I do.
+
+[29:33] No? Okay. Uh so anyway, so yes, you can uh acidify it, and there's plenty of uh recipes out there for things like lemon ice cream. The reason is lemon uh you can add in small enough quantities if you add zest and uh and or you know, extract and juice, uh it'll succoral curdle, but you can um you can add enough of it to not throw off your ice cream balance uh and still get the the flavor. So look at Sherbet recipes for these kinds of things.
+
+[29:58] I think you're gonna find what you want. They typically, because they have less fat in them and lower milk solids content, lower solids content in general compared to ice cream, they tend to have a higher sugar content in them than uh than most ice creams. Another thing you can formulate that's really, really, really freaking good is uh coconut milk uh based uh sorbet with fruit juices. And I do that all the time. Like, you know, get a can of uh coconut cream actually, and for instance, passion fruit juice, bang.
+
+[30:25] Ice cream, you know, sorbet. Good. Um so anyway, so I would do that. If you want, if you're worried about it, you can also stabilize your ice cream. Remember, uh stabilize your base.
+
+[30:34] So make your base uh your your milk-based base, milk or cream-based base. And by the way, most people make uh sherbits with uh milk uh just because I think it's cheaper and it's supposed to be kind of a lighter product, but you could just make it with cream instead of with milk, and so basically cream and fruit juice and sugar and get it done. So I was like, I don't care about ice cream. Anyway, uh so give that a try and tell me uh tell me uh kind of uh what happens. Right?
+
+[30:59] Yeah. Okay. Uh now we got a call in from Shinderhannis, one of our earliest readers on the cooking issues blog. Did he expect us to answer this on the air, or is this just uh in general? I don't think he listens to the show.
+
+[31:12] I think he's just a blog reader. Anyway, uh this goes out to Schinderhannis. Uh he says, Hey Nastasha, you are the only person whose email address I have found from the orbit of Dave Arnold. Like that? Okay.
+
+[31:23] I posted a comment on the Bangkok daiquiri posting cooking issues, but I fear it might be overlooked since the blog is hibernating a bit. I know, I know. Here's a wild idea of mine. Uh have you ever tried degassing your spirits? Now, for those, before we get into this, Bangkok daiquiri uh is um the kind of the first thing I put on the uh menu at Booker InDAX.
+
+[31:42] They use a technique called uh nitrile muddling. And nitro muddling is where you you take an herb, and in the case of the Bangkok Dacri, it's Thai basil, which I love, uh, you add liquid nitrogen to it, and you crush it to a fine powder, and then you add liquor to it. And the reason uh you do that is because uh you what you want to do is get all the alcohol into the leaf before it thaws out. If you don't, uh the polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the in the leaf will instantly turn the Thai basil kind of a black color. It'll taste oxidized and crappy and swampy.
+
+[32:16] And the same thing happens with a lot of other uh, you know, leaves like mints, other kinds, but any kind of herb like that that blackens when you crush it, uh, you know, instead of muddling it, we nitromuddle it. Nitrumuddling also makes the particle size extremely small, which means that you get a very, very fast infusion of flavor and you get these brilliant, brilliant colors out of nitro muddling. So if you do purple basil, you get these incredibly purple drinks. Thai basil is like a bright, bright green. Uh, and so it's a really good technique for that.
+
+[32:43] Now, uh one of the things is is if you take spirits, right, regular spirits, and you just blend them in a blender with uh basil, you can get a similar result, but there's a lot of oxygen that's whipped into it before the alcohol can uh before the alcohol can take uh nuke the polyphenol oxidase enzymes. And um, and so you it's a slightly more oxidized flavor than you would get if you make it with nitro muddling. Anyway, so that's the background on what we're talking about with Bangkok Dakaris. Okay. Schinderhanis writes Have you ever tried degassing your spirits?
+
+[33:15] All common solvents contain dissolved oxygen. In many sensitive chemical reactions, it is a major problem. Schinderhannis is a k is a Shinderhannis is a chemist, by the way. Uh okay. Uh what you need to do is degas the solvents.
+
+[33:27] The simplest way to do this is to bubble argon gas through it for like 10 minutes with a thin tube or syringe needle. It rips out all the other gases and saturates the liquid with inert argon. If you want to speed it up, you can do it in a sonicator, which is an ultrasonic bath cleaner. Okay. This eliminates the molecular oxygen that many enzymes need to do their dirty work.
+
+[33:49] Okay. Also, argon is a lot heavier than air, so a layer of argon is formed in the bottle of degas solvent that nicely protects it. After pouring some liquor, simply exchange the air in the bottle with new argon, and the remaining stuff in the bottle stays degassed. This might further improve the quality of sensitive cocktails. You might even want to fill the headspace of sensitive cocktails in high glasses with argon.
+
+[34:09] Unfortunately, I do not have time to try this. Maybe it is a bummer and schnaps without oxygen tastes awfully lame. That's a good point. How much oxygen does it affect the flavor? But maybe it is the next big thing, and you will find bottles of argon can be bought for TIG welding or for scuba diving.
+
+[34:23] It is real cheap. We'll be in every pub, starting with Booker and Daxon. No time. Thanks a bunch. Shinderhannes.
+
+[34:28] Okay. I have not tried that. I mean, there's um there's an there's uh that new product that uses argon to purge the head spaces of uh wine bottles so that they don't go bad. I've I've tried that. I've tried nitrogen bubbling as a distillation technique because you if you bubble long enough the gas out, you keep uh making a new head space above it, and so you can strip flavor.
+
+[34:51] My only thing is I'd be wonder I'd wonder like uh how much flavor stripping you get out of the product through the initial 10 minutes of debobbling. I would think not much, because in my in my testing when I was trying to see whether I could do uh flavor distillation with nitrogen as opposed to using um normal like rotary evaporation, it was very, very inefficient from a time standpoint to get the stuff. So I would assume that you wouldn't lose that much through the initial bubbling. I don't know. It'd be interesting because then what you could do is like uh you could actually do probably a long-term infusion of something like uh herbs.
+
+[35:29] I don't know. I'd have to test it. What do you think, Stas? Yep. She's like, I don't care.
+
+[35:34] I don't care. All right. Uh all right. So uh good call in from uh Shinderhanis. And uh I'm looking for Stas is tapping on her arm.
+
+[35:45] Again, Stas, people out there don't give a rat's behind about what we have to do. Your time is valuable, so I wish I wish I wish other people thought my time was valuable. You give a lot to your listeners, they have to. Yeah, alright, alright, yeah, whatever. Okay, listen.
+
+[36:01] So uh maybe next week I'm gonna be on the lemonade cleanse. So maybe next week I'm gonna sound like a lunatic when I'm talking because I'll be high on maple syrup and lemons. You're not doing anything, right, Stas. You don't play those kind of games. What's Peter gonna be doing?
+
+[36:14] Uh special K, I think. Which not the drug, not ketamine. It's uh replace two meals with special K. That's a wussy. Anyone can do that.
+
+[36:23] Stas and I were looking at each other, we're like, I could just eat one meal a day. We basically eat yeah, that's crazy. Whatever. And what what what is Emma doing? A cowboy diet, I don't know.
+
+[36:32] Is that all beans? I'm not sure. I don't know. Whatever. Anyway, so I'll do the lemonade cleanse first because that's the easiest one for me to just wrap my mind around.
+
+[36:40] In fact, I already have everything at the house to do it. Yeah. Is there any are you allowed to do anything fun with it? Like can I carbonate it? No.
+
+[36:47] No, nothing. Can I drink water? No, I don't think so. Holy crap. I can't drink water.
+
+[36:53] I don't think so. I can only drink this crap. I read you the rules. You could do salt water. Oh, great, thanks.
+
+[37:00] Can I add salt to the lemon maple syrup crap? No. Hey, you know what? As much as you relish me messing myself up, you have to deal with me all next week. Oh, I'm not looking forward to it.
+
+[37:12] Alright, well, anyway, we're back to you next week, probably with a wild-eyed crazy lemonade fueled Dave on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[37:49] Heritage Radio Network is a non profit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Picasso coming to you live from Alberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How are you doing? Stas and uh good. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[0:44] You're doing better than I am. Yeah, uh uh, you know, we made the uh we made the Kickstarter uh goal. Uh plus we made an additional twenty thousand dollars plus over the Kickstarter goal, which means that I have to do the lemonade diet and then at some point in the future do the um do the paleo diet. So what you're hearing is me uncorking my core container of crappy lemonade. Uh by the way, I heard I missed some calls uh because I was a little late, uh kind of as usual.
+
+[1:14] So call your questions to 7184972128, that's 7184972128. Uh I have Eddie here, uh filming this proceedings uh for posterity, so maybe your call will be filmed, although you will not because you will be at home. How you doing, Eddie? I'm doing well. We got uh Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, how you guys doing?
+
+[1:31] Good, and you were pretty energetic for being on that uh lemonade cleanse. Well I mean let me tell you something about the lemonade. So for those of you that thankfully don't know what this is, the Master Cleanse uh was devised by uh a nut, a nut job uh named uh Stanley uh Stanley, I think, Burroughs, uh, sometime in the forties and was uh republicized in the 70s of the last century. And uh yeah, uh I went I went ahead and read Well here's the premise. You don't want to eat anything, you want to cleanse your body.
+
+[2:00] His first premise is that all ills are due to this thing he calls uh toxemia, which is a buildup of toxins in the body, right? So in fact, he doesn't believe that there are such things as dangerous germs or viruses or or microbes. Take that AIDS. Uh, you know, take that cholera, anything, right? The guy doesn't believe in this.
+
+[2:17] He believes that all uh kind of bad things that happen to us are caused by a buildup of uh toxins that we take in uh into our bodies, which is uh on its face absurd. And then he uh furthermore says that really what you need to do is clean out these things, and so he has devised a cleanse that he thinks will uh clean you out and get rid of all the toxic stuff and fix uh literally whatever ails you. He believes that this will fix w whatever ails you. So it's it's uh uh for every sixty ounces of water, uh purified or spring, you know, water, you you need three-quarters of a cup of uh organic, uh fresh, fresh, of course. I mean, I believe in this part, lemon, or actually lime juice does.
+
+[3:01] Do you know you could use lime juice? No, I didn't know. No, you could do lime juice. Possible. Uh because, as he says, uh lemons have more vitamins in them than any other fruit known to man, which is a lie.
+
+[3:12] Uh, and then uh maple uh syrup or organic, preferably grade B, three-quarters of a cup, uh, because it also apparently has all sorts of terrific stuff in it. And uh lastly but not leastly, uh some uh ground-up cayenne pepper, because I think he believes that uh, you know, if it's hot going in, it's gonna come hot coming out, clean you out. You know what I'm saying? He doesn't believe you need any protein in your diet, because he literally believes that uh like uh uh leguminous trees, we have nitrogen-fixing bacteria in us that allow us to obtain nitrogen out of the air and then synthesize all the necessary proteins out of it. So he believes that you can go on this lemonade cleanse for uh for 40 days if you want to.
+
+[3:55] By the way, Stas, I tried my first salt water uh purge uh this morning. How was it? Uh horrible. But it tastes horrible. It's horrible.
+
+[4:02] Anyway, uh and these nut jobs also believe you should not use iodized salt because they believe that somehow it stops it from cleansing you out. Believe me, if you pound a liter of uh, you know, seawater style salty water, uh you'll get cleaned out mighty, mighty quick. But one last thing, yesterday I did have a uh nightmarish headache because uh I uh I am a coffee drinker. So uh caffeine, if you withdraw from caffeine, you get a nightmarish headache. Uh and so I guess this is part of the quote unquote toxins leaving my body.
+
+[4:31] But the problem is that the whole the whole concept behind this diet is that somehow that you have an adversarial relationship to the food you eat and to the life you live and to everything about who you are as a person. When it and it is true that if I don't have coffee for uh a day or two afterwards, I will have headache until my body uh clears itself of its desire to have caffeine. But this is not a monkey I want to get off my back. I can't wait to get back on caffeine, not because I need it, because I like coffee. And because decaffeinated coffee, sorry everyone out there, just doesn't taste the same.
+
+[5:04] It's not the same. I've side by sided coffees where people are like, hey man, you can't tell the difference. I can. I can but believe me, because I'm not drinking like milked out like milk stravaganzas, right? I drink like short, straight espresso shots.
+
+[5:19] That's what I drink, and I drink it because I like it. So I will go back to to drinking it as soon as it's humanly possible. Also, have it Stas, have you remember you know what it's like when you eat too much uh candy? Mm-hmm. It's like so much candy.
+
+[5:32] Mm-hmm. And how you have like that sugar high? Mm-hmm. That's what it feels like to be on this master cleanse because it literally is just is just uh you're on a sugar high the entire time. It's because you're eating nothing but sugar in the form of maple syrup.
+
+[5:44] It's freaking nuts. Anyway, let me uh let me uh what are you reading, by the way, Stas? Just nothing. Did nothing on listening to you. I'm actually just staring at the page.
+
+[5:52] What what's the book? Uh Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll. By Judy, who's Judy McGuire. Oh, Judy McGuire. Yeah.
+
+[5:59] She's a co-host of the Mike and Judy show. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's great. We love her. Yeah, good.
+
+[6:04] It's a cool book. Yeah. Well, this is just I just mentioned that because it's on videotape here, and I want you guys to know what Nastasha actually does. I've heard all this classic. I like what you're doing.
+
+[6:13] I like what you're doing. I like what you know what you actually do during. No, you didn't, because I hadn't done the assault stuff yet. Not the salt. And I hadn't reported any of it back.
+
+[6:19] Not the same. You haven't heard any of it, actually. I heard about it. I hadn't read the Burroughs. No, I hadn't read it yet.
+
+[6:23] No, you know, you just I just want people to know out there, now recorded on videotape, exactly what goes on in the cooking issues program. Okay. Uh Adam Call of a follow-up from last week. Just want to thank you to take time for answering my question on last week's podcast. You'll be pleased to know this is the person who um who was asking whether they could save the stuff at the back of their fridge because the wife is pregnant now.
+
+[6:42] You remember? Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer my question on last week's podcast. You'll be pleased to know I threw out the stock and stewed fruit, although I'm still surprised there isn't a more scientific way to determine the food safety of refrigerated items. Thanks again for the program. I've learned a lot.
+
+[6:55] Cheers, Adam. Uh Ryan Berkeley writes in about hams. Dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and I'm gonna add Joe and Eddie. Uh I impulsively ordered a whole country ham several months ago from Finchfield Farms in Kentucky's. Actually, scratched that.
+
+[7:07] I actually ordered two country hams due to an accidental click. You know, you shouldn't be able to do that. You shouldn't be yeah, I like, is that because I think that happens to us at Booker and Dykes because our internet is so slow that you hit click a couple times. Do you ever double bought something? No.
+
+[7:18] Yeah. It shouldn't be allowed. Anyway, but don't worry. Anyway, the problem is I don't have a meat slicer, and it seems a little silly to order one just to eat these hams, and cutting them with a chef's knife has been a nightmare, even after I do a bit of amateur sharpening. What's the best way to cut up this ham other than buying a meat slicer?
+
+[7:33] Should I get a longer knife? How about some kind of holder apparatus for the ham, or maybe just take my seven-inch chef's knife in for a proper sharpening? Thanks for any guidance. Ryan from Berkeley, California. Two well, first of all, congratulations on the purchase of a good ham.
+
+[7:44] Finchfield uh makes an excellent ham. Uh, I visited their uh plant once. Uh they are uh they do like a semi-ambient cure where it's uh ambient, you know, in other words, not temperature controlled during the first portion of it. They I they used to anyway. I don't know if they still do this, but they really only cure one time a year and then they run out.
+
+[8:01] A good product, uh, all around uh good. Also, memory serves uh non-smoked, not a smoked ham. Uh and I'm trying to remember, I think believe they also do uh bag cures, so the bat hams are wrapped in bags as they're being cured for a portion of the time. Anyways, uh good hams. Uh seven-inch chef's knife is not the tool to attack this with.
+
+[8:20] First of all, go out and get a longer chef's knife for this sort of dealy anyway. But uh what you're gonna want to do is get a thin blade slicer. I don't do not I do not recommend any meat slicer on uh I've I've ever used other than a professional meat slicer. The little ones that they sell, they're they're crap. I mean, uh, pardon me if anyone out there sells them for a living, but they're crap, they don't work.
+
+[8:43] You know what I mean? At least the ones that I've used. They just don't work. Well, you're gonna want to if you like, look, a professional meat slicer is super super baller. It's awesome, right?
+
+[8:53] But uh they're very big. Uh you have to clean them, and it's not so easy. And sometimes newer ones are easier to clean the Hobart model 3000 slicer is easy to clean, but it's very expensive. Uh so uh here's what you should probably do. Traditional old school now in America, we've come to eat our hams like this, uh cut cross crossways, right?
+
+[9:14] The way you normally would get prosciutto if you go to a deli, you cut crossways. Uh and this produces a um a cross section of what's going on uh in the muscle, and it's very tender and comes apart, but European advocates have uh European ham uh folk have long advocated for slicing uh the long way. So you get a little piece of uh of a bunch of different muscles, and you can get these long strips. They are a lot chewier. But uh I had an expert make me some the other day, and it was quite good.
+
+[9:43] But you've got to remember European hams are uh not cured in the same way that ours are in the way that they're hung, so they don't have the same necessarily slicing characteristics because they're not the same shape. Uh Finchville and other hams are hung with the point with the with the hawk and down so that the cushion, that big part of the meat, kind of gets full and fills up because it's it's more normal for it to be served American style that way. What I recommend you do is um debone the ham or cut the cushion off the top of the ham and then use the separate piece, use the pieces on the bottom for different, and then once you have it as a more manageable piece, trim away a portion of the skin, make sure it's very cold when you slice it, and then you can slice off thin sli thin slices with a uh like a long flat slicing knife, which are they're flat, they're easy, like one that's meant for slicing fish or that, but the like any long slicing knife, but you're gonna want significantly longer because you want long draws on it. You don't want to do a lot of sawing on it, so you're gonna want to get one that's long, like 14 inches or more. I haven't measured one recently, but long.
+
+[10:47] And if you're gonna attack something with a chef's knife, uh you're gonna want mean with a ham, it doesn't really matter. You don't need a long chef's knife because there's no place you can really get into it with it. But go ahead and and uh next uh next uh you know, super gift giving holiday, like invest in a sweet. You know, they used to say in all the uh mad cooking magazines, you know, you know, an eight, an eight-inch knife is good enough, whatever. Let me tell you something.
+
+[11:10] Once you get yourself a good 10-inch chef's knife, good quality one, right? That feels good in your hand, and I don't care whether you prefer Japanese, Western, Japanese, or uh, or Western style knives, uh, like my one of my favorite, believe it or not, is a f is an old French style sabotier, like really old carbon. But a once you start like using a 10-inch knife, it's such a joy, right? Oh, for sure. Yeah, 10-inch knife.
+
+[11:33] Gotta love a 10-inch knife. Go for 10-inch. Anyway, uh, hope that helps. And by the way, uh just keep eating the ham a little bit every day. That's what I do.
+
+[11:42] Like ham, like in the little scraps and stuff, like ham and eggs, like no one's ever made a better combination than country ham and eggs, I don't think. I don't think so. Uh anyway. Peter writes in, another follow-up. I'm the fellow from Minnesota that dropped the call, uh, dropped the call on you two weeks ago.
+
+[11:58] Sorry about that. The answer to your follow-up question, now if you remember, he was asking about different ways uh to treat deer meat because he got a lot of deer meat in Minnesota, which is a problem I wish I had here in New York. To answer your follow up question, we get a range of deer throughout the season, so you'll get anything from fawns to old doughs. When you put them in the bag, the gamey flavor has been a bit intense, and as such, I've been using pretty strong sauces to counter them. Think juniper berries with current preserves.
+
+[12:19] Do you have any other strong flavor combinations that could uh hold up to the gamey power of an old dough? Uh well, it's an interesting question. I mean, usually uh when you're talking about gamey flavor, uh, people recommend like the pre-soak in some sort of an acidic uh merinate. But I haven't been able to elucidate the chemistry of it. Uh of why, I mean, I don't know, I don't know that it's a similar chemistry to what happens with uh, for instance, fish uh when you add vinegar on them and it kind of uh deactivating some of the nasty smells that are there.
+
+[12:46] I don't really know. But it's universal. I wasn't I read uh I went back and reread uh After the Hunt, which is John Sfulse's book on uh Louisiana game cookery, and didn't find any uh sort of stuff. I mean, m a lot of what I read about the taste of gaminess in deer has to do with well, there's natural gaminess because deer has a flavor, thank god it's delicious, but uh there's also uh kind of an off-flavor that can happen based on slaughtering and kill uh steps. And I read a number of scholarly papers that were not very helpful because all they basically said was stuff that you already knew, which is you need to chill the sucker down very quickly, and that a lot of bad deer flavor comes from the fact that the deer hangs out in the back of a pickup truck too long before it can get cooled down.
+
+[13:24] Um but the other interesting thing they said was that uh in general, people prefer uh check this out. So between does and bucks, right? People prefer does, and does are slightly more tender, at least in the studies that I've read. There's one contradictory study out of Poland, but most of the ones said that. And even furthermore, they have a a different um kind of a uh flav flavor breakdown, but I can't I but I don't know whether it's due to diet.
+
+[13:48] This study didn't go that far. But interestingly, although younger doughs were preferred to uh older dough, uh older doughs are preferred to younger bucks, even though the younger bucks are probably more tender. People just preferred the dough meat. Strange, right? What happened?
+
+[14:03] Oh uh, uh we'll get back to some more deer stuff in a minute. Collar, you're on the air. Hello, uh, hi, this is Steven Benzinger from Indianapolis. How are you guys today? Doing all right.
+
+[14:11] How's Indianapolis? It's uh it's pretty good. The weather's actually nice out here for once. Um so uh question for you. I am uh cooking for somebody who is neutropenic at this point.
+
+[14:24] Uh and I was curious do you know what new d is the neutropenic diet something that's now hook me up. Give us a neutropenic. Okay, so when you take chemotherapy, uh if you have like uh leukemia or something, it wipes out your uh it could essentially wipes out your bone marrow, so you cannot produce white blood cells, so you have no no real immune system. So uh food safety at this point is extremely, extremely important. Yes.
+
+[14:47] Um and so uh I was curious on your opinion about uh first of all uh some safe practices like maybe boiling pork containers before making soups or uh or whatever uh that I could do in this situation. Uh also I was curious about uh yogurt and uh because it has a lot of bacterial cultures, uh, but they're good bacteria, and everything I read says don't give neutropenic yogurt, but because of competitive growth, I would assume that there was no uh pathogens in there, but I'm not sure. This is an interesting question. Okay, so let me just say at the get go, not having studied the problem, I uh like I'm I'm gonna hesitate to make any actual pronouncement here. So the only dietary restriction is absolutely nothing that would compromise the immune system.
+
+[15:34] There's no dietary restrictions from a food standpoint. Right. Okay. Yeah. Right.
+
+[15:41] So it's kind of just like a very hyper version of what you would do with a pregnant person, right? Exactly. Yeah. I was listening to a few of your podcasts, and uh everything that I heard about pregnant people, I was applying to that situation, kind of, but I'm still right. I mean, if you want to serve somebody like super safe, just as an as a note, I'll say the same thing I say when I talk about um cooking for pregnant people.
+
+[16:05] Immersion circulator is a fantastic investment for I don't know if you already have one, but an immersion circulator is a fantastic investment for for this uh for this sort of diet because now I don't go pushing the don't go pushing the edges. Do you know what I'm saying? But like don't don't try the 54 degree stuff, maybe or right, exactly. So don't push, don't push the envelope. But you know, all of a sudden for this person, you can cook uh you know a bunch of stuff that is uh, you know amazing that they can't otherwise have because they have to cook the crap out of it.
+
+[16:41] So I mean I would definitely focus on things like 62 degree uh eggs applications like that. You know, you I you're gonna be more careful than the otherwise other people would be about making sure there's no cross contamination and stuff like this. But you have the ability then to serve this person uh foods that they couldn't ordinarily get when they were when they were out. Um now with yogurt uh I mean my initial inclination is that you're right, there's competitive bacteria in yogurt uh that are gonna prevent um uh most of the most pathogenic th you know pathogens from growing in it. But if if the if the here's the issue a lot of doctors out there will just say, no, you can't have it.
+
+[17:25] Why? Because they haven't done the research. And so rather than tell you no, you can't have it because I haven't done the research, I would say that if someone has said you can't use it, I would go and see why they said you can't use it. Right? I mean, I'm I'm all for making an informed uh decision on this, but I don't know all the factors.
+
+[17:42] So it could be that some doctor out there who has a lot of knowledge and maybe even some clinical experience has seen problems with yogurt and patients who are on chemotherapy, right? And so I I and I don't know that. But I've seen it go the other way too, where doctors have made knee-jerk responses to questions about foods just because they don't have a lot of food information. They're not cooks, they're not, they don't study this thing, they don't really know much about food. And so I I I can't make a statement about it one way or the other except for figure out what the source is and then make a judgment.
+
+[18:16] I mean, I have no problem overruling a doctor who just speaks from a uh knee-jerk perspective. You know. But on the other hand, I've had it go the other way where people are like, No, I've you know, I've seen actually clinical problems because of X, Y, or Z. Now, when it comes to boiling core containers, core containers can very easily uh stand up to boiling uh liquids. So that's not gonna be in fact uh you know what can't actually interestingly is the lids.
+
+[18:41] The lids are made from a different material than uh the core container themselves. The li the the core containers are polypropylene, it can easily stand up to boiling water. And in fact, I don't believe they'll melt down even in a pressure cooker, although I think you're getting close. I have to look it up. Whereas the lids are made of polyethylene, which melts at a much lower temperature, which is why when you nuke stuff in core containers, the lids expand and blow up and the and the containers are fine.
+
+[19:04] So you're gonna have a difficult time sterilizing uh lids of core containers with boiling water. I would just use a sanitizing solution uh if you're worried about it. If your soups are extremely hot, they should self uh self-uh obliterate whatever is in. Yeah, right. But uh it's a very good idea uh to keep a uh sanitizing solution bucket around the kitchen and just be ultra aware during this time of cross contamination and making sure that things aren't dripping on each other, making sure things are um sanitized properly.
+
+[19:36] I mean, if you can you you know, if you can I mean I don't know what you make, but you know, um presumably, you know, um if because you're worried about it, you're gonna do a good job, uh assuming that you're being vi vigilant. You know what I mean? Right, right, definitely. And um uh do you have time for like uh one or two more questions? Uh sure, shoot me.
+
+[19:56] Okay, uh first one, the the I'm actually building the um uh I'm uh I'm uh about to be a med student, so I'm not gonna have a lot of money. So I'm actually building the immersion circulator from the uh Seattle Food Geek website. Um I was wondering if you thought that that one was a a good model, besides the fact that if you turn it on outside of the water it overheats and blows up. Uh huh. Essentially, but yeah.
+
+[20:17] Well, you can fix that, you know, by just uh strapping uh an extra over temp um an overtemp thermometer to the heating element. Which one is that? Is that the one that's built in the acrylic uh case? Yes, it is, yeah. We're trying to figure out a different thing for the acrylic because uh uh I don't have a lot of time to build it, and the people that are building it for me are not as familiar with how to heat the acrylic to bend it, and I'm I've never done it either.
+
+[20:40] So I'd uh you know, just just in case we're trying to figure out a better box for it than the acrylic. But um What's the total what's the total cost of it when you're done? Uh 70 bucks, 80 bucks. That's pretty cheap. Uh that's pretty cheap.
+
+[20:54] I mean, uh I I've never used I've never used it. Uh the only circuit I've used only commercial circulators and ones I've built myself. I'll say that the ones I built myself uh, you know, like the first one I built was with, you know, coffee, you know, immersion coffee heaters, and they leak electricity, and so I got shocked whenever my hand went into the bath. But, you know, uh the the the temperature equipment temperature monitor equipment now being what it is, I mean, you you're gonna be able to get the accuracy with the home. So you're not from a safety standpoint, you're not gonna have a problem.
+
+[21:26] It's just a question of whether or not you like the usability of it compared to a um right you know compared to to a standard one. But look if you if if it's the only thing you can afford to get and it's eighty bucks do it. You know do it. And uh and uh you know the the one I've seen a couple where people have found like kind of prefab boxes that were used for other things that kind of work. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:48] Okay. Um just drill a few extra holes in them or or something like that. Yeah when you're drilling acrylic you gotta be careful drilling acrylic. When you're drilling acrylic it has a tendency to shatter because acrylic is very shatter prone as opposed to other things like Lexan. Also you can't wash acrylic with alcohol because it crazes and goes nuts.
+
+[22:05] Uh when you're drilling with acrylic you're gonna want to get a special drill bit that has a a different point. It's much more pointy and you're gonna want to make sure that you uh have the acrylic backed up with a piece of wood or something else so that there's it doesn't flex a lot as the drill bit goes through and it's going to prevent shattering because it's really irritating and once you shatter a piece of acrylic you're gonna keep propagating that crack crack especially if it's at a stress point. Okay. Would it would it help to heat the acrylic uh before drilling? No, no in fact no in fact the problem is it heats and gums and then your drill bit catches and then it cracks.
+
+[22:38] Uh I I would just I mean if you can I would put it even in in water on top of a block of wood and go through it. But acrylic, I'm just I'm telling you is acrylic like acrylic drills beautifully when you do it right, but then you know when you stop paying attention is when you you know drill a hole through it and then shoot a crack across it. You know what I mean? Okay. Okay.
+
+[22:56] And and I have one more quick question. I'm sorry I'm sorry to take up some so much of your time. Uh but uh I was curious about uh if you so I have uh another friend that's going gluten free, and I'm I'm giving them suggestions for thickeners like Zan Pen guns and agar agar and things like that to replace uh you know starches that are um that are you know that have gluten in them like wheat we flowers and things. Uh but I was curious if uh what was the source? You were talking about one time that there was a source from National Starch or something like that was that was just like a hundred percent uh um amylopectin or something like that.
+
+[23:30] That was I mean uh I don't remember exactly what what we were talking about, but Nash the National Starch Corporation, other than having an awesome name, National Starch, was uh they have a lot of different um starches that are um specifically geared towards certain things and they are very aware of gluten because it's a huge business, so they have a uh uh you know, they have a a lot of knowledge about it, and a lot of their databases are online. So depending on your particular application, I'm sure you know they if if they don't have a starch that'll fit what you need, then probably nobody has a starch that will fit what you need. I mean they they are I mean they they come by their name honestly, National Starch. Awesome. Thank you very much, David.
+
+[24:10] I appreciate it. All right, have a good one. Oh, you too. Uh caller, you're on the air. Hi, uh Jarvis.
+
+[24:17] I'm calling from uh Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hey, what's up, Milwaukee? No, I've never been to Milwaukee. I've been near Milwaukee, but never been to it. Yeah, you should come down.
+
+[24:26] Yeah. I mean, like I mean I I I tr I drink the beer, I own the tools, but other than that, um yeah. Uh I had a question uh regarding uh sausages. Um our owner has a farm that has uh megaliths of pigs. Ooh, nice.
+
+[24:41] And uh we're trying I'm trying to make uh Italian sausages out of it. But what's happening is uh the sausages themselves are coming out really batty um because of the fat content. I mean I'm still I'm using uh Michael Roman's uh Chiccuterie uh book uh for the Italian sausage recipe. Right. Um, but uh what happens is after I case it, um I hang them to dry.
+
+[25:04] Uh I do prick them. Um and then when I I need to render it in the hotel pan first to get the uh to get the initial fat off, but when I put it on the grill, um there's still more fat to come off um and then also uh the casing splits as well. So I was wondering the question about the the actual sausage and then the casing as well as how do I make a hard, nice, sturdy, crispy uh casing um on the grill. Well, you know, I I actually the casing problem is one I wish I had studied more. I was just talking about this with Nastasha, how the the Germans make the greatest sausage casings, right, says that that snap of a good sausage casing when you bite into it and the meat just explodes.
+
+[25:49] Awesome. Right uh, but okay, so we'll get back to that in a sec. So the the first of all, what's the diet? Uh do like are they are they being fed kind of a standard grain diet? Are they being what what are these pigs being fed?
+
+[25:59] In other words, what's the characteristic of the fat? Is it a hard fat or is it really soft fat before you process it? Well, it uh it is kind of hard it it gets it kind of melts in my hand if we if we don't work fast in a room temperature kitchen. Right. Um so it is kind of it's kind of softer.
+
+[26:17] Um it's not that soft though. Uh that makes sense. Yeah, it does. So I mean for for sausage production, a lot of times you're gonna want a little bit of a firmer fat just because uh well it depends also. Everything look, everything depends.
+
+[26:32] When you're having like when people are making salumi with like dried stuff, they want that like the nice stuff that really stands up to the you know so they they you know they prize so that's why things like the beota fed um like with this really soft uh fat uh ibiricos, they make awesome hams, but harder to own to make straight dried sauce. It's awesome. I love their dried sauce. Please no one call me and say that they don't make a gried I'm not saying that. But like the the texture of the of the fat's a little bit more difficult.
+
+[27:01] I think you know, one thing is are you really chilling the heck out of the meat before you grind it? Uh I I guess I guess not. I mean I put it in the cooler until I need it. Uh it is cold, it's definitely not not warm or uh you know, my my hand is definitely not as warm as I mean it's it's cold. Yeah.
+
+[27:22] But it's not like you know, it's not like deep chilled, um where the surface is starting to seal up a little bit. But I mean I guess I could leave it in there a little bit longer. I could put it in the freezer for a for a for a second just to kind of give it a deep chill but not freeze it. Yeah, yeah. You know, so what I when I'm making sausage, especially if I use a softer fat or like if I'm using a non pig fat like duck fat or something like that, you need you need to get it really really cold.
+
+[27:49] Otherwise, um and and you know, a as I believe it might even say in the charcuterie book, uh, you know, it's hard to tell when you're making a sausage what's happened to the fat during the grinding process. Uh you can only really tell once it cooks and you start bleeding out a lot of the fat that otherwise stay in. So what I would do is um I would I I usually pre-slice the the meat into the strips that I'm gonna feed into the grinder. Then I lay them out on uh sheet trays, and then I throw the sheet trays in the freezer and I wait until they get basically pliable but hard, right? Almost par frozen.
+
+[28:26] And then I feed them in. And if it takes me too long, I'll even have a couple of ice chips to even I know you don't want to add water, but I'm saying a little couple just keep that sucker cold. Also, if you're using one of the big meat grinders, I would I would throw all the parts in ice water before you grind. Like pull the meat grinder apart, throw it in ice water, get that whole sucker cold before you grind. So then, you know, flick all the extra water off, put it together, take your par frozen meat, grind it in.
+
+[28:52] And I'm my guess is that's going to take care of 90% of your problems. That's my guess. Okay. Um now on the casings uh breaking apart, are they breaking when they're are they breaking on the drying step or when you grill them? When we when I grill them.
+
+[29:06] Yeah. I mean, if a sausage isn't like full like typically I will par pre-cook a sausage before I uh before I hit it on a grill, just because you're gonna get much less splitting. I mean, the best way you could do it in a combi, you could do it in um you could do it. I was using the uh I'm sorry, I was using the uh circulator. Yeah, uh perfect.
+
+[29:29] 60 degrees for an hour. That's great. So you did it like that, pulled it out, and they were still breaking apart on you on the uh on the grill? Uh-huh. Correct.
+
+[29:37] Huh. Uh I don't know. Maybe it's just maybe with the I don't know. I have to think about that. Usually, well, usually that's a recipe for keeping it together.
+
+[29:45] It's like too much air in there, maybe when the stuffing process? He said he he said he pricked them though and got the air out. It's either air or or maybe the fat bubbling out, or maybe moisture content, but you said you dried off the stuff. I don't I don't see why I don't see why, unless they're mechanically damaged. If they're if like obviously everybody knows if you try to cook a sausage from raw on the grill, you're gonna break the skin.
+
+[29:59] Everybody knows this. But if you par pre-cooked like that, and they're not broken when they come out of the uh circulator, right? No. Maybe try a little less drying time before you grill them off. I don't know.
+
+[30:20] Okay. I don't know. I I have to think about maybe maybe someone else who has some experience in this uh can troubleshoot that. But I think I've solved your fat bleeding problem. I think you just tends to underestimate how cold they want their meat to be, and the answer is very, very cold.
+
+[30:37] But even when I paddle uh, you know, the the recipe calls for you'd said paddle the uh the vinegar um into the uh into the grind after you grind it, uh that's gonna bring the temperature down a bit, but I should also put the bowl and the paddle into the freezer as well. Yeah, everything should be everything should be like just cold. And in fact, the most the like so like there's two so when you're grind when you're grinding sausage is like the first time when like everything can go to hell in a handbasket in this situation, right? And also, I mean I find that like pre-cutting the meat into strips like that and setting them out, like gives me another opportunity to make sure I'm not putting crap I don't want my sausage, but like pieces of grizzle or whatever. Because I don't like to put that in, even though I know you can, whatever.
+
+[31:21] I don't like to do it. And then uh the second time you can mess stuff up is either on the primary bind when you're mixing it together, if you really want to bind the sausage a lot, or if you're doing um if you're doing uh an emulsification step for an emulsified sausage. And both of those, it heats the enemy. I get I guarantee you that's what's what's happening. But I'm pretty sure that what's happening to you is happening at the grinding stage.
+
+[31:46] Okay. Alrighty? Good luck with this. Let us know what happens. Alrighty.
+
+[31:50] Hey Dave. Yes. So we've got another caller, but really quick I want to shout out somebody who became a member, a listener of cooking issues, Irene Lee, and she had a really nice message I thought I'd pass along. She said, I thought you guys might be entertained to hear that we usually listen to cooking issues while we're on our way to and from restaurant depot, which I assume you're familiar with. The place is a real bummer.
+
+[32:08] No one knows how to park. No one can face all their barcodes the same way. And a lot of the food is scary, like really freaky and weird. But it's part of our reality because it's our best option for dry goods, paper, and cleaning supplies. Is she from Boston?
+
+[32:20] Is that Irene from Boston that we have a question in from later? Um I believe so, yeah, it is. She is from Boston, yeah. Nice. All right.
+
+[32:26] So uh thanks to Irene for becoming a member. And then real quick, like listeners of cooking issues who can't make our big fundraiser, August 11th, which is going to be awesome, and we'll all be there. Uh you can get $10 raffle tickets, which uh is for a dream trip to Seattle. All expenses paid, flight, hotel, three meals of your choice at Tom Douglas restaurants. So that's from Chef Tom Douglas out there in Seattle.
+
+[32:48] So it's HRN Hawaiian BBQ.eventbrite.com for raffle tickets. Nice. Yeah. And we have a caller. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[32:56] Hey, Dave, this is Andy from Chicago. How's it going? Doing all right, doing all right. How you doing? Doing good, thanks.
+
+[33:03] My question, the guy who's having the problem with the sausage, you think there's any issue with overstuffing and just putting too much pressure on the casing? Yeah, that could be. Uh I hadn't I hadn't uh I hadn't thought of that. It's yeah, it's definitely uh a possibility. I mean, um you you're from Chicago, you're not from Butcher Packer, are you?
+
+[33:20] Uh I buy from Butcher Packer, but not from them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just made me think of it. Someone else, uh the same guy who was asking about uh deer before is stocking out his uh his butcher supply stuff because he he's gonna they're gonna be butchering more deer this year.
+
+[33:33] And I was thinking he's like, do you have any recommendations for other stuff I need for sausage stuffers and stuff. But I've only ever really used the I've only ever used like the five and I guess the ten pound guys the crank guys, so I don't really know anything about uh bigger ones than that. Do you have any experience with that? Not with bigger ones. I just used five bigger one.
+
+[33:52] But uh those those crank stuffers, you know, even if they're three pounds, they seem to work great. You know, I've had I've had a lot of success with them. Yeah me too. I've used the expensive ones and I've used the cheap ones from like Grizzly and the cheap ones from Grizzly seem to work fine. Yeah they work fine.
+
+[34:08] You know what I don't like are the ones that look like uh the ones that look like weird horns. Right never use those I mean me neither but I just don't like them. I saw I've seen them and uh so I guess I'm also while you know while we're talking I'm answering uh part of uh Peter's question. But yeah I don't like those suckers. But but so and another thing I think that most people when you're gonna uh set up a big butchery thing get a bandsaw.
+
+[34:34] I don't see that on the list of stuff. Get a bandsaw. Everyone loves a bandsaw right extremely dangerous in the kitchen because people don't think about how dangerous they are and it will cut your finger off as fast as it will cut off a you know a a rib. But uh if you are accustomed to wood shops and you know how you know danger works then I think a bandsaw is a good good thing to get for your butcher setup. I mean you know how danger works.
+
+[34:59] Yeah yeah I mean like swear to God, if you're gonna slice up a bunch of hams, like uh especially country hams, bandsaw. Anyway, so what was your what do you have a question or you're just uh talking sausage with me? Wait, hold on a second you're cut you're you're you're cutting out a little bit. Hold on a sec. Start again.
+
+[35:14] Yeah, I uh I run in I'm I'm the guy who goes to Alabama sometimes to go fishing. I did the Ikajimi on the blue fish ago. Nice. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[35:25] So I didn't get any bluefish this year. Uh it's kind of a crappy fishing year, but I did get uh like a thirty five pound big drum red fish, uh, which was great. And um it's uh it's a little tough. You know, the bigger they get, obviously the tougher they get. And so I was thinking about doing it low temp for tenderization.
+
+[35:39] Uh doing kind of a test with four chunks over a five hour period, you know, tested at one, two, three, and four hours. Uh does that seem like good? You have a have you ever had an experience with uh big tough fish tenderizing them? Yeah, well low temp cooking. Well, okay.
+
+[35:54] So I mean the problem with fish and low temp cooking is that usually for most fish, uh you cook 'em for a long time and but they don't get better. They just get kind of mushy. So they don't get yeah, they don't get tenderer. In other words, like the hardness is still there, but it's just also mushy. There are a couple fish that can stand long t cooking times, like stripers.
+
+[36:15] I know stripers can take long cooking times in circulators, and uh and they're one of the few fish that I think tastes okay at higher temperatures, like fifty-seven Celsius, which is like hundred thirty-five. So, like, you know, like that's the kind of fish that usually I'll cook a long time. It's also luckily the fish that I usually get in larger sizes, like thirty-six, forty inch stripers. And uh I cook them whole and you need to cook them a long time because they're tough. You know, uh not sorry.
+
+[36:42] No, you need to cook them a long time because they're large. Yeah, right. Yeah, because they're large. Uh they also tend to get tough when they're big, but it's good because you're not overcooking them. Uh so if you're cutting something into fillets, I don't think there's any reason to cook it for a long time.
+
+[36:56] Well, you cook it through and you should be done. Now prove me wrong. Like, please, you know, cook cook it, but I find that most fish, when cooked for a long time, tends to degrade uh rather rapidly. Like, I don't really like salmon. It's cooked more than like 20 minutes or so.
+
+[37:12] Uh you know, even you know, in a circle if I'm doing like a higher thing, like if I'm doing like 50 50 uh and change for like a cold poached thing, you know what I mean? Where I'm gonna cool it back down, so I'm gonna cook it through. Uh I still don't, you know, like it cooked too too long. No. Unless you go all the way the other side and do can't be a fish and dead.
+
+[37:31] So I'm thinking maybe, you know, maybe it's more along the lines of the stripe. I'm thinking it's definitely more along the lines of the striper than it would be of a salmon. So I'll give it a shot and let you know. I'll tell you a striper can take two I've striper can take two and a half hours while you're waiting for the center to cook through. Like the larger ones that I cook take two and a half, three hours to cook through at fifty-seven, and they they don't they don't turn to crap.
+
+[37:56] They're fine. So if you need to cook it that long, yeah, yeah. So and you know, also I fry the outside. But like if I you know, if you know, uh they can take it, it will it will work. All right, cool.
+
+[38:07] I'll give it a shot. Thanks very much. Thank you. Take care. I love those experiments you did with Ike Jimmy last year.
+
+[38:13] They were awesome. Uh okay. So I think do we answer like Peter's question on the on the well before we before we go go uh back, like if you're from Minnesota and and you're interested in uh hunting, you gotta get the Bull Moose uh cookbook, which was a cookbook uh by Christian uh Herder back in way back in the day. He owned an outdoor shop and he had a couple of cookbooks. They are wildly inaccurate.
+
+[38:37] He was like crazy, probably probably a misogynist. I don't know. I know he had some very un choice things to say about Hollywood Starlets in his book, but his book is the craziest cookbook, one of the craziest cookbooks I've ever read. Complete nutbag and like interspersed with like how to uh how to uh you know get a tortoise to stick its uh head out when you cut its head off answer is of course to shove your finger and it's behind. But uh it's an interesting book to read if you are a hunter and from Minnesota 'cause it's part of your Minnesota hunting heritage.
+
+[39:09] Uh okay. So uh on to Lucas who now lives in Nairobi. Uh hey longtime listener from Australia who's l uh living in Nairobi at the moment. Stas you lived in Nairobi for a while, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[39:19] Yeah. How long were you there? A month. How long ago? Four years ago.
+
+[39:24] Yeah. Yeah. Never never been to Kenya. What? Right before you.
+
+[39:27] Yeah, never been to Kenya. Uh so I and uh okay. This brings up my first question. When I got over here a few people told me it's much harder to bake at altitude. Is this true?
+
+[39:37] Can you describe why altitude might cause difficulty in getting breads and or cakes to rise. Uh I've had little trouble, bread comes out different to at home uh but I put that down to different quality ingredients. The flower star is not the same. Uh so for me yeast risen items are fine and I haven't tried chemical rising agents yet. Okay, look.
+
+[39:54] Uh as far as I can tell Nairobi is at uh seventeen uh hundred and ninety five meters which is five thousand eight hundred and eighty nine feet. At that altitude water will boil at ninety-three seven Celsius or two hundred point seven Fahrenheit. Now listen that is true and so things uh that are boiled tend to cook longer but that's not the biggest deal. The fact of the matter is that uh also water is going to evaporate at a much more ferocious rate. So uh things just operate in in different ways.
+
+[40:22] Uh I would go to the um Colorado State dot EDU. They have a whole thing on altitude baking and what to do with it. And King Arthur Flour actually has an interesting thing because they're a flour company. But the the upshot is that gas bubbles are going to expand more quickly, so you generally use less leavening agent as you go up higher. Also, because uh things evaporate faster, right, uh in in the oven, they will, because the oven is the temperature the oven is and the humidity is lower, so the water inside is going to evaporate faster.
+
+[40:54] As that happens, it's going to create more steam much more quickly, right? So things tend to rise more and pop more. Uh it's also harder to get things to boil, etc. So, uh according to Colorado State, uh high altitude has its most pronounced effect on the rising time of bread. At high altitudes, the rising period is shortened since the development of a good flavor in bread partially depends on the length of the rising period.
+
+[41:15] It is well maintained that period. Punching down the dough twice gives the time for the flavor to develop, or perhaps just use less freaking yeast, right? Uh in addition, flours tend to be drier and thus absorb more liquid in high, dry climates. Therefore, less flour may be needed to make the dough a proper consistency, right? Just makes sense.
+
+[41:31] Secondly, uh I've really liker sugar uh in pretty much everything. If you're going to add sweetness, why not add flavor at the same time? Uh says Lucas. Uh and I I think so as well. I like some dark sugar.
+
+[41:41] Not always, sometimes. Uh if you're adding a darker sugar in place of more refined sugar, for example, fine muscovato in place of castor, are the sweetness levels the same or is more refined sugar sweeter per volume? Um keep up the uh keep up the good work, enjoy the show. Cheers, Lucas. All right.
+
+[41:57] Well, volume is a f so okay. So on a weight basis, brown sugars are dis technically a little bit less sweet than uh sugar because they have non-sucrose stuff in them, like ash and other things that are making them brown. Now, the most hardcore brown sugar you can get in uh the Codex Alimenters we looked up with with is still 88% straight sugar, right? That's like including the water that's in it and the most molassesy, most dark brown, and that's high. That's higher than any of the actual stats I've read on brands that I could find.
+
+[42:28] So you're looking at something that's roughly the same sweetness as sugar on a weight basis. Now, volume basis has a lot to do with density. Now, the brown sugar that you buy, you know, domino brand brown sugar that we buy here in the States is about the same uh one-to-one sweetness uh as regular refined uh granulated sugar on a volumetric basis, but it just packed brown sugar. But it just happens to be that way. If you were to have a sugar of a different density, it would be wildly different.
+
+[42:59] That's why I always recommend going on a weight basis with sugar, right? Weight basis. So the answer is yes and no. Okay. Uh Irene wrote in, same Irene, I think, uh uh Jack.
+
+[43:11] Right? From the uh May May, the May May Street Kitchen. There's in fact a May Ma restaurant outside of my house, and it's called the new May May Kitchen. And I'm assuming, Irene, that yours is of much higher quality than the one outside my house. Uh dear cookie issues crew, greeting from Irene, writing new from Boston.
+
+[43:26] I run a fruit truck called May May uh Street Kitchen with my brother Andy, sister Margaret, and the partner Max. Uh we do a bun, we do a bunch of local sourcing whole pigs and the like, and we're opening our restaurant later this summer and hope you can come visit us one day. Our staff loves the show uh and the blog, so thanks for being cool and teaching us lots of cool stuff. Also, congrats on the Kickstarter. We're eager eagerly awaiting our puff pack and are super happy for you guys.
+
+[43:47] So good supporter, right? Strong. Uh I'll be in Boston actually uh in uh early September for a little bit. Um I might have my dog with me though, so I don't know if you have outdoor seating. My question today is about MSG.
+
+[43:58] We don't use it in our food or at home, but we don't mind eating it, and it drives us nuts when people complain about it, like Nastasha, for instance. Uh the number one complainer is our mom who claims she gets headaches and can taste it in the cheap Chinese food we occasionally eat. She is both a doctor and of Chinese descent, so you can imagine that it is a trippy trick uh tricky topic around the house. We've considered just sneaking it into her food and then surprise attacking her with the truth, but I still live in her house, so that seems inadvisable. Do you know of any particularly legit or academic scientific work on the MSG myth that we can share with her?
+
+[44:28] She's read a few pop side articles and the stuff in Huff Poe and Salon, and they didn't really do it for her. Any help is much appreciated. All the best, Irene and May May Street Kitchen. P.S. Sometimes when we're having a bad day, we re-listen to your rant about raps.
+
+[44:41] Thanks for that. That was a good rant, actually. Okay, here's what you want, Irene. First of all, look up the article, The Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, an anecdote revisited in uh 1986, Food and Chemical Toxicology, where it describes the history of Chinese restaurant syndrome. In brief, in 1968, Dr.
+
+[44:59] Robert Ho Man Quok recounted a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine, his experience of a strain syndrome whenever he ate in a Chinese restaurant. He reported his experience one of numbness beginning at the back of the neck, radiating to the arms and back, and accompanied by weakness and palpitations. He suggested that the cause might be some component of the cooking wine, the high salt content of the northern Chinese food, or the monosodium glutamate that was used. This letter triggered a deluge of similar anecdotes and focused attention on MSG as the causative agent. However, back then it wasn't MSG, it was called Chinese restaurant syndrome.
+
+[45:31] And in fact, uh I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people who are eating stuff that wasn't uh used, they weren't used to, or if for instance, they go to a Chinese restaurant and pound all of the stuff without having any rice that's not salted, they're pounding a boatload of sodium. Just might do sense. But here's another interesting thing from that paper. When the study population was screened to identify uh those who claim to have heard of uh Chinese restaurant syndrome and believe that they knew what it was, it was found that those subjects had a rate of reporting CRS type symptoms that was ten times greater than the general population. And an equally greater rate of reporting non-specific syndrome is presumably from this group of dyspeptic individuals that the majority of Chinese restaurant syndrome anecdotes arise.
+
+[46:14] So the nice way of saying in your in your head. Now I'm not insulting your mom, but I'm it's I'm not insulting your mom here. Don't take it that way. Uh a lot of papers later that were really uh there's been a lot of papers. The papers that have found that there is a problem uh have a couple uh with with monosomial glutamate, have a couple of issues.
+
+[46:33] Uh a lot of them are that they don't successfully mask the taste of MSG in the studies that they do. Uh the best paper I know uh of from an earlier date that kind of disproves really kind of strong kaboom uh that there's no problem that proves that there's no problem with monosomial glutamate is from uh Dr. Terasoff in 1993, Motosodium L-glutamate, a double blind study and review, uh, which is like baller, they put the monosodium glutamate into gel caps, blew the gel caps off, did a double-blind controlled placebo thing, and showed in fact that there's nothing wrong with MSG. There's someone who wrote uh uh uh a criticism of their uh of that article, and then he came out, he or she, might I don't actually maybe it's a she, I don't know. Dr.
+
+[47:12] Tarasov came out and uh with uh with a with a rejoinder to that called Another Case of Glutamania in also in 1993. And I will just read it very quickly because it is intensely awesome. Uh because it's uh one of the, and I said it before the last time I went off an MSG, it's like you see the scientists like totally dropping the glove and just being like, listen, you D bags. Here's what here's what it is. And give this one to your mom, have her read it.
+
+[47:35] Uh, just look up, um, look up another case of glutamania by uh Dr. Tarasov, T-A-R-A-S-O-F-F. Uh, I think it was 93, although it might have been a year later or so. Okay. Another case of glutamania, and this is from the article.
+
+[47:49] MSG is an amino acid found in all foods and sometimes termed free glutamate or glutamate. All organs in the human body contain MSG as it is found in the bloodstream. Boom. Uh, but the boom is mine. Uh by far the highest levels are found in parts of the brain.
+
+[48:05] The brain is protected from the bloodstream by the blood-brain barrier, which is largely impervious to incoming MSG. The brain synthesizes its own glutamate from glucose. This is an excitatory neurotransmitter, namely, you need glutamate to think, a fact which is worthwhile pondering. Boom. Also mine.
+
+[48:24] Uh the brain eliminates its used glutamic acid by conversion to glutamine, which can cross the blood-brain barrier. That is, the brain is a net exporter of MSG. The notions of exogenous and endogenous MSG are only relevant around the blood-brain barrier. Outside, they are biologically equivalent. The turnover of MSG in the body is approximately five to ten grams per hour since it is readily tra um transaminated to alpha key uh ketoglutarate, which is used in the Krebs cycle for conversion to energy in several organs.
+
+[48:52] Zowie. When plasma levels are increased by huge doses of MSG in the absence of food, they return to basal levels in less than two hours. Unrealistically large doses can elicit mild transient sensations such as lightheadedness, stiffness, tightness, weakness of the limbs, and warmth, and burning of the skin, face or scalp in some subjects. It should be emphasized that such effects are caused by very fast consumption in several minutes in the absence of food and do not reflect a realistic eating situation. The World Health Organization lifted its numerical limits on the use of MSG in 1987, and more recently, the American Medical Association did not support labeling requirements for food containing uh uh free glutamine.
+
+[49:30] MSG, here's it, boom, boom, boom. MSG is ubiquitous in vegetable and meats as it is in the human body. To comprehend the issues, it is easiest to start by considering some foods which do not contain MSG, pure salt and white sugar. The crystalline MSG that is added to foods is made by a fermentation process which produces the identical optical isomer found in quote unquote natural foods. Chemically, it is the monohydrate of the sodium salt of R2 amino pentadia uh pentania I can't pronounce it.
+
+[49:58] Pentane dioic acid. The concentration in tomatoes can be as high as point three four percent. Foods containing fermented, autilized, or hydrolyzed proteins contain much higher concentrations of amino acids. These include parmesan cheese at equivalent of one point five percent MSG, soy sauce at an equivalent of one point three percent MSG. Uh so boomity boom, boom-edy boom, boom, mcboom.
+
+[50:18] I hope that helps with your mom. You think it's gonna help, Eddie? Yeah. It's pretty pretty hardcore stuff. Uh okay.
+
+[50:24] Uh do we have to we have time for a couple? A little bit? Wait, it's one. One? Well, what Jack, can we stay on for a couple minutes?
+
+[50:31] Or Joe? No one's there, so we could do whatever we want. Bang! Alex writes in about pressure cookers. My wife recently gave me a pressure cooker, which I have been delightedly using to make delicious recipes.
+
+[50:41] Actually, she claims uh uh to have been unduly influenced by an unboyed unborn child on the grounds that she would never deliberately give me more kitchen stuff. I've been thrilled with the results so far, but the cooker was, as we shall say, a thrifty purchase, and I'm somewhat dubious that it performs as well as a more robust model model like the Coon Recon. Specifically, I wonder whether it gets up to the full 15 PSI call for by the recipes. Is there any way for me to tell what kind of pressure it gets up to and how to modify these recipes to compensate uh for this? Thanks and keep up the good work, Alex.
+
+[51:08] Alright, Alex, you know. I feel you, man. You got the present from uh from the wife. So you can't ditch it and get the get the higher quality one. It's all right.
+
+[51:17] Listen. Uh unfortunately, there's no way easy. I don't know what brand you have. If uh you know, but you can do things like um go on uh cooking issues on our pressure cooker tests, and we do eggs at different temperatures for different lengths of time, and you can kind of gauge by the browning that you get, whether or not you're at a full 15 psi, or you could borrow someone's pressure cooker and cook like two, either two eggs in them, hard-boiled eggs in them, uh, for like an hour and check the pressure pressure differences, or uh sweetened condensed milk, you can see whether or not they they turn brown like Dulce de Leche at the same rate, but unless you want to tap into that sucker, I don't know that how you're gonna be able to test the pressure. One thing I'll say most pressure cookers uh that aren't the coon recon, they need to be venting act actively for them to be at pressure.
+
+[52:00] So it's not just that little yellow button popping up that indicates pressure, it's actual venting of steam that indicates pressure. But uh yeah, I know it's tough. It's it's tough. You got the present, you can't say, I love it, honey, but I wish I had the coon recon. It doesn't work.
+
+[52:12] You know what I mean? Doesn't work. Uh okay. James writes quickly about stretchy ice cream. Hey Dave, Nastasha and the booth crew.
+
+[52:19] I like that booth crew. Like that booth crew. We are the booth crew. You know that song. All right, uh, I've tried making Dave's stretchy potato ice cream.
+
+[52:26] When it works, it hits it out of the park. The stretchiness adds to the sensation of creaminess without becoming too sweet. However, anytime I vary the recipe, or even occasionally when I follow the cooking issues blog recipe, it fails to gain stretch. Have you done any more tests with this that haven't made it into the blog? Cheers, James.
+
+[52:39] Well, I I've tested it and I've uh no, I haven't. I've tested it and had it not work when I've used uh other than Idaho, uh, you know, other than like russet Burbank style potatoes. I've had it fail with uh mealy, like kind of uh potatoes from Columbia, these potato criollos. So I think uh, you know, I've had it fail when uh I let it store too long, or when the potato's been sitting around too long, or when the starch retrogrades too much. So I have had it fail, but I haven't done any more research.
+
+[53:07] But you know, but let me know exactly what happened because maybe we can work this in it. Maybe I can find someone who's uh I don't know who will work on the problem. Also, a good stretchy ice cream is uh guar and lo and um guar and uh flavor free guar and uh gel and that makes a nice stretchy ice cream, but it doesn't have the potato, which I like. I like the potato. I should do more work on it.
+
+[53:25] I'll tell you I'll tell you this. I wasn't able to make it with straight starch. I'll ask Piper. I'm sure Piper will think about this crap a lot, right? That's the kind of thing Piper's gonna sit around instead of doing the work that we're supposed to do, he'll do that kind of stuff.
+
+[53:36] Right? Okay. Lastly, we're gonna make it all the way through. Johnny writes in about eggs and the EC Whipper. Uh Dave, Nastasha, Joe and Jack, longtime listener, first time question asker.
+
+[53:45] I love the show, blog, and bar. Thanks. And look forward to each new episode. You guys do a tremendous job. Keep up the amazing work.
+
+[53:51] I'm an avid home cook, and no matter how many eggs I eat, and I eat a lot, me too. Eggs are good. Uh I can't seem to keep bits of shell uh consistently out of my eggs when I'm cracking them. Any tips on avoiding this? I've gotten better at fishing them out with a shell.
+
+[54:04] It's like a magnet, but would like to get good at cracking them without so much carnage. Uh also I know it's been covered over and over, but can you recommend a particular ISI ripper whipper for rapid infusion for a home cook? Alright, on eggs. You know what? I really don't know.
+
+[54:18] I haven't studied this very much. I will say that uh Jacques Papin, the famous uh French chef uh that you know we know, hung around with, uh we we, you know, I call him Jackie Peeps. I don't know why. Sometimes Jackie Peeps. So uh he always used to say that you want to crack your shells on a flat surface and not on the uh not on the edge of your bowl uh if you want to avoid uh shells.
+
+[54:39] I also notice that obviously my shell problem is worse when I'm not paying when I'm when I'm literally like bowl cracking one-handed and like breaking them open, that's when I I do it. I think a lot has to do, frankly, with the eggs themselves. Some eggs seem to uh seem to shell out and throw bits of shell a lot more uh than other ones do. But uh I don't know. I mean, what do you think?
+
+[54:58] I try the old table crack instead of the uh bowl crack. Yeah, table crack you can push it through like a china cap as well after you crack. I mean if you're doing like a scramble, but if you're doing a setting side up, you're kinda screwed. Yeah, you're kinda shafted. Yeah.
+
+[55:08] Yeah. Uh yeah, it's problematic. I mean, honestly, like the lower quality crappy eggs have that problem, and the really high quality thick egg problems have that for different reasons. One because the shell just disintegrates in your hand and like falls into the and the other one because the shell is so damn strong that sometimes a bit of the membrane it can come off and go in. I wish I had a good answer on that, but I do have a good one on the ISI for you.
+
+[55:30] So the ISI people themselves, or EC actually, who we've been dealing with, who make the whipped cream containers, uh, they they kind of think that you want to use a half uh liter whipper. And for home use, a half liter is probably good enough. For a bar, I use a liter. The problem is if you're gonna make a lot of whipped cream, kind of a liter is nice to have. Uh if you're doing infusion, rapid infusion recipes, um, you might have to use two chargers instead of one uh when you're doing in a liter versus a half liter if you're not changing the recipe to get the pressure up there, but I really don't think that's that big of a deal.
+
+[56:00] The tricky you might have to change a recipe written for a half liter to work in a one-liter, but you can definitely work it. And if you're at home, the cost of throwing in an extra charger every once in a while isn't big compared to the cost of being not as versatile if you need that one liter to do something, right? Uh so I mean if you're in a restaurant and you're doing it every day and you're banging out for service, those chargers add up quick. But Lee. But if you are uh doing it at home, it's not such a big deal.
+
+[56:24] So if I only could have one, I would probably have a one-liter guy. Now listen, uh I didn't mention this, came up with a new technique the other day for the ISI whipper. So, in a nutshell, rapid infusion uh rapid infusion works this way. Uh you put uh product in a liquid in an ISI at room temperature. You force the uh nitrous oxide and the nitrous oxide under pressure, forces the liquid into the product.
+
+[56:48] You shake it around. The pressure uh also increases the rate at which things come out of the food and into the porous object into your liquids. You then vent it violently after a couple of minutes and stuff boils out and brings the flavor with it. That's how rapid infusion works, rapid nitrous infusion in an EC. Okay.
+
+[57:05] Problem is you can't use an EC or couldn't use an EC to get the flavors into uh a product. So, for instance, like the cucumber martinis that I made like you know a billion years ago, like you know, when I was first starting out in this thing, where I used a vacuum machine to suck the air out of the cucumber and then uh having it underneath gin and and uh and um gin and and vermouth and a little bit of simple. And then when you let the air back in, boom, the the uh air slams the gin into the cucumber, making an awesome looking transparent uh kind of cucumber martini. That doesn't work in an ISI because the the stuff boiling back out of the cucumber makes it look not right and it doesn't have as much of an infusion. So you can't do nice uh flash pickling in the ISI and have those beautiful results.
+
+[57:48] I figured out a way to do it. Here's what you do. Here's the new technique. I'm calling we're calling I don't know what I'm gonna call it, like EC flash pickling or something like that. So, what you do is you put the cucumber and the gin vermouth, a little bit of simple salt, in a sandwich-sized Ziploc bag, right?
+
+[58:04] I cut them into planks, right? Then you roll, I roll three of those sandwich Ziploc bags with the uh with the alcohol in them, and I don't need much. So for 200 grams of uh planks or for 150 or 180 grams of cucumber planks, I use about uh 200 and change a mils of this mixture, right? In the Ziploc bags, you do it just like low temperature ziplocks. You put your finger in it, you dip it under the water to get the air out, so it's only cucumbers and gin mixture in the Ziploc bag.
+
+[58:30] Roll it up, stick it into your ISI, fill it up to the fill line with water, close it, put a charger on it, agitate it uh, you know, a little bit, just a little bit, you don't need to do it a lot, and then let it sit for two minutes like that. Now, slow. Now, what's happening is is that you've used the pressure from the from the nitrous or carbon dioxide, it doesn't matter in this case, to force the liquid that's in the bag into the pores of the cucumber, right? There's still a little bit little gas bubbles because they're crushed in there. So you're gonna lose some of the infusion uh when you vent, but not as much as you would if you were actually injecting nitrous into the cucumbers themselves.
+
+[59:04] You then want to slowly vent the thing up to up to atmosphere after about two minutes. Now, if you were gonna don't remove it, although if you did, you'd look at it, you'd see there's still air bubbles coming out of the cucumber just because the cucumber doesn't know what the hell's happened. So for the next five minutes or so, you're gonna see little tiny air bubbles coming up out of the cucumber into the gin liquid. So you're gonna let it sit in the in the uh in the whipper for five minutes. Then add one more charger, let it sit for another two minutes, vent very slowly, and when you take the stuff out, boom!
+
+[59:36] Flash pickled in an AC and an EC whipper. Cooking issues, yeah. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:00:03] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by TechServe, New York's original and still the best. Apple computer, iPod, and iPhone store and repair shop. For more information, visit TechServe.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, and who do we have in the studio today? We got Jack and Joe in the booth right now. How you guys doing?
+
+[0:46] We're doing great. Yeah, how you doing, Stas? Good. Great. Calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[0:51] That's 7184972128. And I'm back on food, people. Yeah, the lemonade diet is over, and God, that sucks. Man, it's just the worst. It it's like freaking terrible.
+
+[1:02] Like, so my wife, I complained about it last week, so I'm only gonna complain a little bit about it this week, right? But my wife was like, you know, uh, she was surprised, you know, because here's the thing. Like Nastasha you don't probably don't know me, right? But uh one of the things Nastasha hates about me is that uh she says I'm kind of like an animal, I'm kind of a machine, because I really just don't I don't care kind of like I don't know, it's things don't phase me, like pain, punishment, things like that, right? Yeah, hunger.
+
+[1:28] Yeah, hunger. So getting through it wasn't like uh like uh difficult from a willpower standpoint. It just sucked, and what sucked about it was is there was no point in it at all. You didn't learn anything about you don't look different either. No, no, no, no, no.
+
+[1:42] People are like, did you lose weight? I don't know, I didn't weigh myself beforehand. Why? Because this like it has no no meaning. And and all I realize is that you can, in fact, walk around with a sugar high for seven consecutive days without falling over.
+
+[1:57] I think we should just do a new uh diet stars this uh Stas will do this one. How about Stas. You want to go on the Sour Patch Kids diet? No. All you eat is uh just sour patch kids and wine.
+
+[2:08] Not at the same time. No, no. Like breakfast is sour patch kids, lunch is champagne, dinner is sour patch kids. No. You could do it for two days?
+
+[2:16] Yeah, probably two days. Yeah, you want to No, I don't want to do that. Maybe in the winter. Yeah, 'cause like minus the wine, like that's people are like, can you give a wine for seven yeah co of course. You know, you like your body is just this like physical thing that's there.
+
+[2:30] You know what I mean? Like who cares? Whether you're you know, right? Anyway, whatever. It was an irritant and I'm glad it's over.
+
+[2:35] So you learned nothing about yourself through that. Uh no. No. No. I learned that I mean I I really don't like the idea of detoxing.
+
+[2:47] I think it really doesn't make sense. I mean it is true you get rid of caffeine as I said last week, you know, and yeah, you know, your body is mildly dependent on caffeine if you consume it the quantities I did. And by the way, uh first thing I did when I woke up on my by the way, I broke my lemonade fast with uh falafel, I made falafel because a couple people have asked about it on the show and I hadn't made it in a long time. So I made uh falafel kind of a combination between Joe Nathan's recipe, you know, the famous uh writer on on um Jewish and Jewish American cooking, cooking in general, I guess, and uh this lady called uh the Shiksa Shiksa Kitchen. Anyway, uh who's uh a convert to Judaism actually, and you know, no one no one's a better zealot than a convert to anything.
+
+[3:27] So looked at her recipe and uh looked at uh Joe Nathan's recipe, made some good falafels. Fried them all up in the fryer. Did you talk on the show last week about how people should just get sick and throw up? Uh did we talk about that? I don't think so.
+
+[3:40] Well, uh, so the theory is this uh like so here's my f feeling, right? If what you really want to do is purge your body of everything, right? Uh like the best for me was the time I had that horrible gastrointestinal disease, right? And I I lost a ton of weight there because your body is like working overtime to try and fight this horrible disease that you have, and you're flushing your system of everything, and you can't take anything in, but your body doesn't go into horror shutdown mode because your brain is telling you not to eat or drink anything because it just shoots right out of you. So your metabolism stays fast and you're not taking any calories.
+
+[4:15] That's the genius thing. You know, that's that's what we need to do. That relates to my other business idea. Now, someone out there, please feel this. Here's the idea.
+
+[4:20] Ready for this? We're gonna get samples of contaminated water from around the world, right? And we're going to ship them to people who who live in places that don't have any sort of parasites in their water. And then you're gonna drink that water like maybe like two, three weeks. By the way, I'm not serious, this is satire.
+
+[4:38] Like two or three weeks before uh you go on a vacation to that country to that country, right? And then you have all of your horrible gastrointestinal problems at home in the comfort of your own home. You know, on the comfort of your own toilet, right? You know, I I'm I know some people that you know, Stas that could have used the comfort of their own toilet when they had some horrible GI problems on a trip last year. And they uh uh think about it.
+
+[5:00] And then um I mean, like, look, nothing's worse than going to an unfamiliar country where you don't speak the language and needing a toilet within 10 seconds, right? Yeah. I mean, that's rough even here in the States or wherever you live. Wherever you live, doesn't matter where you live, like you know your own toilet. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:16] Anyway, my point is is uh is that this would be uh a decent business. But you know, but stuff, all kidding aside, people used to take tapeworm pills. Really? Yeah. What years?
+
+[5:25] A long time ago. Really dumb. Really, really stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid stuff. But and then another thing, another million dollar business for you. Ready for this one?
+
+[5:32] There's this part. You didn't give the name of that business. Well, so like it was actually I was speaking to someone who is from uh India when when I when I came up with the idea, and because they were saying you don't want to go to Delhi and get this. You here's what you get when you drink the water there. They call it uh and this is from a native, so please don't don't write into me.
+
+[5:52] But uh Delibelli, which is the sweet name. So that was gonna be the name of the business, Delibelli. It sounds so friendly, doesn't it? Yes. Sounds awesome.
+
+[5:59] Anyways, so I was speaking to a doctor over the weekend, and we have another million dollar idea. Check this out. How much do you think like you know, some sort of rich Manhattan folk person would pay for this? Uh here's what we do. We give you you come into the clinic, it's a one-day super detox, right?
+
+[6:13] You come into the clinic, you drink this thing called a fasso soda. Fasso soda is like heavily phosphate salt laden uh soda, you have to chug it and literally it rolls through you like a freaking steam train and sprays out the other end, lickety split, cleans you out. One shot. So you do that. We also flush you from the other side just for good measure.
+
+[6:30] Then get here's the good part, Stas. Total dialysis. Right on the spot. Bam! Bam!
+
+[6:38] Oh my god. Oh my god. They would pay whatever. Yeah, whatever. $10,000.
+
+[6:45] Whatever. Show up, detox in a day. You know, we'll do your nails at the same time. You know what I mean? Little manicure.
+
+[6:52] We can get that Chinese lady we use to do their hair too. Oh, dude, you're giving away the secret. I didn't say where. You know, only the smart people know that that they should go to the like any place that has a Chinatown. If you go to the Chinese hair salon, this is a new this is in the States.
+
+[7:08] I don't know what it's like around the world because I don't I don't get my hair cut around the world. But the best head massages in the world for almost nothing. Yeah. Right, Sus? Yeah.
+
+[7:16] Eight dollars. Yeah, don't give away, don't give away all our secrets. We'll only give away the cooking secrets. Alright, now two actual cooking questions. First of all, before we get to cooking questions, I would like to say we have this in from uh Aaron Will.
+
+[7:27] Very uh, and uh we love this guy. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna just gonna read his note, right? To uh Nastasha et Ali, which I like. I like I know some people named Ali.
+
+[7:37] Anyway, I want to say congratulations to everyone. This is by the way about the Kickstarter, the uh puffing gun. Oh, we should talk about the puffing gun later if we have time about what we puffed. Yeah, that was awesome, by the way. Oh my god, you like that first of all, like those things exploding.
+
+[7:48] How how like loud and impressive is that explosion stuff. You know what? Give me a minute. Now I have a video on my phone, I'll patch it through to the board. Maybe it'll uh come through on radio.
+
+[7:57] Uh sweet. All right, cool. Um, so this is about the puffing gun thing. I would like to say congratulations to everyone who is involved in the project on reaching the goal. Thank you very kindly for the invitation to the Mofad Puff Party.
+
+[8:08] You see, because Aaron Will is a backer of our Kickstarter. Uh it makes me incredibly proud to be a part of something I so strongly believe in. I truly believe in the long-term applications and massive positive ramifications that such an entity can and most likely will create. In all honesty, I am poor I am a poor yet passionate cook out here in Oregon, but um only because the momentary circumstances allowed for the expenditure, I was able to donate my entire paycheck this last month to the Mofad Kickstarter. You hear that people?
+
+[8:35] Entire paycheck. As such, along with scheduling and staffing issues, I have no feasible way to monetarily fund a trip to join the festivities to follow this month on the 13th, because we're having a big puffing party on the 13th of August. I would, however, hate to see my invitation ticket and spot on the fire marshal's max person limit list to the event to go to waste. If there is any possible way to auction off or resell my ticket to again benefit the Mofad so that someone else could enjoy the experience, I would greatly appreciate it. Again, I truly regret I cannot join the amazing group of like-minded persons that is sure to converge for the event.
+
+[9:07] I hope to hear from you soon and that you all have an amazing time at the event, Aaron Will from Scratch Restaurant in Lake Aswego, Oregon. By the way, everyone go out and patronize the uh Scratch restaurant out there in Lake Aswego, Oregon. And also he says, P.S. Uh, if Dave and everyone wants to come out to the pair repository, still the invitation stands. I'd I I'd love to go, but it's right around now, and I got s we have so much stuff going on this fall.
+
+[9:28] It's like the worst fall ever in terms of stuff. Um but uh maybe if I finish my book while the pears are still on the on the vine, I can go. Stas has this look on her face like I want to stab your eye out. That's a look. But anyway, uh Aaron, listen.
+
+[9:42] Thanks. This is uh it was um we're we're very touched over here. Yes. Well, we should have someone get his ticket. Yeah, we'll think we'll think of something nice to do for you.
+
+[9:52] Yeah. As opposed to the ticket. Okay. Well, we got a caller. Uh oh.
+
+[9:55] But maybe before we take the call caller, we'll play this little clip of the puffing gun. Okay. We'll see how it sounds. All right, hold fire. Woo!
+
+[10:11] I guess it's better when you're looking at the video. Yeah, probably. Caller's on the line. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey man, how you doing?
+
+[10:19] Uh, this is uh Christian from Detroit. How are you, dude? Hey, doing all right. So got a question for you. I know you like to cook uh some weird things and whatnot.
+
+[10:28] Um was trying to uh make some mayonnaise this weekend with turkey eggs and made mayonnaise uh a hundred times and never had a problem. I was curious if different game eggs start to uh make creating mayonnaise difficult or or different. Huh, that's interesting. So you say you have done turkey eggs without a problem? No, I've never done turkey eggs uh before.
+
+[10:53] I've done you know, regular eggs and made mayonnaise of the hundred times. But I'm wondering if like wild game eggs or something like that has a like different protein comp uh makeup or something like that. Well they would yeah, I mean that that's a cool question. They I've never had a turkey egg. Do you actually have a stock of turkey eggs there?
+
+[11:14] I have a stock of turkeys which then produce the turkey eggs, so it's uh it's a good relationship. How do they taste as opposed to a chicken egg or duck egg or something? They're super custardy. So you know how a duck egg gets a little rich? This is like kind of custardy with and it's a little bit thicker, as you kind of would expect from like a bigger bird.
+
+[11:33] It's uh but it's super delicious, especially on top of like pasta and whatnot. Huh. And so and do they have you put them in a circulator? Do they cook at roughly the same uh temperatures? I haven't put them in a circulator, so I I couldn't tell you that one.
+
+[11:46] I would love to know that. So the well, the short answer is I don't know. But uh with regard to mayonnaise, but I do know that the different birds do have different protein fractions in their eggs and that they respond differently to certain treatments. For instance, uh, you know, one of the things that I have experimented with uh different um egg varieties uh is treating them with uh lye. Harold McGee and I used to do uh an alkaline egg where you soak it in lye and salt solution and then you cook it, and then even after you cook it, the egg uh remains translucent, right?
+
+[12:19] And so and then and then McGee and Nils and I used to you used to substitute that out. Uh instead, you know, loot fisk is the lye is the lye uh cured fish. So what we would do is use the egg as a loot fisk thing and then just s serve an actual smoked trout next to it along with some so it was good. Um but the um but the point is is that the uh duck eggs, chicken eggs, and quail eggs all responded differently to the treatment because the protein uh makeup is slightly different. So duck eggs responded really well to that treatment, uh, you know, uh, and uh so did quail, but uh chicken eggs were much more difficult to get to work with that because the proteins tended to fall apart more when they were treated with the lye, so they didn't gel up as nicely.
+
+[13:01] So I I know from that experience um that uh that yet yes the protein fractions are slightly different. Now, you know, mayonnaise is mostly concerned with the emulsification properties of the yolk, and I would assume that uh you know be because the yolk has so much more uh emulsification power in it than is necessary to make any sort of reasonable quantity of mayonnaise that unless there's some real unforeseen thing in a turkey egg that I can't, you know, fathom that uh there's no reason why it wouldn't f function um the same way in something like a mayonnaise. Is that make sense? Yeah, so maybe I just stink. Well well I mean like I have to uh yeah, I have to uh keep playing with it, but it was really weird.
+
+[13:50] I mean, no matter how much, you know, like a little bit of acid or the little bit of water, I just I couldn't get it to come together, so I'll have to mean you couldn't get it to you couldn't get it to start the emulsion? No. Yeah, I mean I've never researched the turkey. That's a really interesting question. You I I I'm trying to think of like what it could be that would not allow it to happen, but I you know, I can't.
+
+[14:11] But but so you so in other words, like you sit there, you make it with a chicken egg, no problem, and then you make it with the turkey egg and it's big problems. Yeah, it's it's super weird, and then you know, it like I've tried everything, like I let it sit in the fridge, let everything separate, pulled the yolks back out, tried to slowly add it back in, tried the cold method, tried room temp method, could not get it to come together. So I'll have to keep playing with it and see. Maybe there's something in it that's it's maybe there's something I've I've no I have no clue. But but maybe someone out there knows.
+
+[14:44] You know? Maybe I'll send you some turkey eggs and then we'll have to Oh, that'll be awesome. We'll play with it. That would be awesome. Also, like uh I wonder whether have you tried um so one way to find out whether there's something in the turkey egg that's shafting you is to m do like one to one turkey egg with uh chicken egg and see whether or not you can make that work.
+
+[15:04] Right? Yeah. I mean maybe there maybe there's some sort of crazy inhibitor, but I again like I just feel that like something just weird might be something weird might be going on, you know? Yeah, I I agree. I mean it it seemed weird to me.
+
+[15:15] I couldn't imagine that the emulsification would be that weird, but I or that different rather, but yeah, it was it's pretty strange. Huh. Yeah, well that's very interesting. So uh uh I would encourage you to keep us posted because I want to hear how this works out, or get us some turkey eggs and we'll mess around. Well we will make mayonnaise out of them.
+
+[15:33] Yes. Or and you can you can put them in the suit and see see how they do. No, yeah, it does. I want a sixty two. So you need to do is you need to do like you do the range.
+
+[15:42] So it's gonna set somewhere. I mean, obviously, you know, if you cook with a circulator, you know, ch uh chicken eggs set between 60, so they're runny of sixty two and they're set at sixty four Celsius. Yep. And so like, you know, I usually just run like that range to see whether like how things are relative to relative to the chicken, which is, you know, of course, the standard standard egg. Right.
+
+[15:59] Standard egg. Yeah. Cool. Alright, awesome. So I look for I look forward to the turkey and we'll uh we'll post back.
+
+[16:07] Yeah, sounds good. Thanks, man. Thank you. Alright. So what were we talking about beforehand?
+
+[16:12] We were talking about popping gun. Yeah, but no, there's something else. Something else we were talking about. I can't remember. Okay.
+
+[16:19] Uh Ryan writes in uh at cooking issues. How does the pressure pickle technique burst the vacuoles make sense with the chamber, but I'm a little confused with this. Referring to uh the the pressure uh rapid pressure pickling technique I put up on the cooking issues blog uh the other week uh and I think I described it last week on the air right how that works like you so they the idea is is that normally when you're infusing a liquid into a solid use a vacuum machine you suffer the air out using the vacuum machine you have it in a liquid air comes back in air s air smashes the liquid into where the air pockets used to be in the thing and you infuse it. So the problem with doing that in ISI is is that when you release the pressure uh all of the stuff that you infuse in boils back out again and you get almost like a net zero in terms of infusion. It doesn't look infused the way an awesome like you know vacuum infused thing looks so I solve that by putting the um products in Ziploc bags inside the ISI so that the soluble gas, CO2 or N2O doesn't get into the uh product and therefore won't boil out as violently.
+
+[17:24] So the question here is uh how does that uh burst the actual um air holes well I don't think in other words, like I think what what here's what I think is happening uh in in in this technique. In a vacuum, when you're using a vacuum machine to inject a liquid into into an air hole, what you're doing is you're removing almost all of the partial pressure of air on the inside of the air holes on the uh the pores on the inside of your liquid, right uh inside your solid. When uh when the air comes back in, you have a maximum uh external pressure of 60 of uh six sorry 15 roughly PSI pounds per square inch, forcing the liquid into those things. In an ISI, you're talking about sixty uh or more uh pounds per square inch, at least 60, 70, depending on how much you put in pounds per square inch pushing on it. And that is enough to crush uh air bubbles down to almost nothing.
+
+[18:16] So you've forced the liquid into it, right? Now you're not forcing anything solution like soluble uh gases in there. You're just making those air bubbles tiny and forcing liquid in. When you release it, right, those bubbles expand and leave your product, let's say cucumber, right? And take with it some of the liquid.
+
+[18:34] But they also, as they're leaving, they keep on then leaking out because you've made pathways for the liquid to get to them during the compress during the compression phase. The second time you hit it, right? This is why you pause for five minutes. The second time you hit it with a charger, you reinject that liquid into those uh into those uh gaps, right? And the second time you release it, very little gets sprayed back out, and so you have uh fundamentally uh an infused product.
+
+[18:58] That's why you need to hit it twice with that. I hope that makes sense. That makes any sense? Mm-hmm. All right, cool.
+
+[19:02] Uh all right. Uh let me see. Uh we have a bunch of you want to hit all the circulator crap now? Cell circulator, John? Or can you talk about what you what you emailed uh Barack Obama?
+
+[19:13] What? Oh, you know, do you guys look I look, I look. This is great. What? Dave answers no emails that of course if you send me an email, I'm not gonna answer it.
+
+[19:21] Have I answered an email for you ever, Jack? We've never had one email interaction, though. Yeah, no, no. Nah. And I've known you for how many years?
+
+[19:28] Like three or four years. Yeah, yeah. No, no emails. No, no. I hate email as a thing.
+
+[19:32] But but uh the the uh Obama machine emails emails me like three times a day. The formula. Like the, but they change the names to each person. So it'll say hi Dave. Yeah, where'd this come up?
+
+[19:46] What made you think it is? I was looking for his. Oh, you were looking for the questions I need. Yeah, so like anyway, so like I he's like I only respond to Barack and Michelle Obama's emails. And I never get responsible.
+
+[19:57] Oh, beyond Beyonce was on behalf of Barack Obama. Oh man. I was like, Beyonce, you never write anymore. So anyway, yesterday or two days ago was Barack's birthday. Right, yeah, happy birthday.
+
+[20:07] So what did you say? I was like, uh uh what did I say? I was like, oh a happy uh happy birthday, brother. Next time we go out, the beers are on me. No response.
+
+[20:18] No response. Anyway, I'm like, I personally am like uh I'm uh not a fan of the fake personal. You know what I mean? And he asked for money a couple weeks ago, and you told him I have this mopad thing that I have to give. Yeah, the fake personal emails are hilarious.
+
+[20:37] It's like I love it when an ATM machine thanks me as though it's not a machine. Yeah, ridiculous. No one made you think of that. All right. Let's take a really quick break.
+
+[20:45] All right, uh coming back with cooking issues. This special program was brought to you by TechServe, New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider, serving creative professionals at all levels from individual customers to Fortune 100 companies. TechServe has built a solid reputation in their expertise in technology, sales, and service. Visit them on the web at TechServe.com or in New York City at 119 West 23rd Street. Learn more about their in-store classes and incredible insider program.
+
+[21:39] Make stuff happen. We back? We're back. We're back. Uh Bob in Portland writes in regarding the uh egg uh the egg cracking uh thing we had uh last week.
+
+[21:51] By the way, you know, like someone like walked up to me a pastry chef that's everyone has an egg cracking thing. So uh Bob writes, hey Dave, Nastasha, and friends. What's up, friends? Hey. Hey.
+
+[22:01] Uh here's my nearly foolproof egg cracking tip. I hold the egg in the palm of one hand and begin wrapping it with the knuckle of the other hand, like I'm knocking on the door, gently at first and gradually increasing until the egg cracks. I then insert my thumbs and spread the shell apart. No egg white on the side of the bowl or the countertop, Bob in Portland. And uh, you know, it's me the you know the pastry chef was saying, you know, you get the the the tap very gently on the table at the at the at the widest part of the egg and put your finger in, open it so like let me tell you something.
+
+[22:31] Uh I am a freaking gorilla monster in the kitchen. Like if I spent more and it's people are like just to give you an idea, like of kind of like my way I am in in the thing, like uh I just I like to do everything extremely quickly. Right, Stasja shaking your head like like I can't like I can't like uh sp I should spend each time and give every egg the the respect it deserves as I crack it, but like, you know, I just crack the hell out of those eggs really quickly. You know what I mean? The only time I really pay any attention is when I'm separating eggs out.
+
+[23:05] And even then, I don't pay that much attention. And so for instance, when I'm crack when I'm separating eggs out, because I'm gonna like make like a Zabayon or I'm gonna make like a meringue or something like this, right? I never crack the damn yolks. You know what I mean? Like when I throw them into the pot, sometimes I crack them, but I don't really care.
+
+[23:22] You know what I mean? I never crack eggs when I uh egg yolks when I'm making fried eggs, right? Do you think you have that problem? And I'm a I'm a freaking gorilla. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:31] Like I'm I'm the worst person in the world. And so she was this patriot saying that like that's typical for someone who like hangs out with savory people all the time. That you know, like you know, you just crack the crap out of stuff and put it put it through a strainer to make sure that there's no pieces of shells in. She's like, you're a bad person. Who was that?
+
+[23:47] I forget who looked. But uh true though. Bad person. Bad person. Uh at least with regard to that.
+
+[23:54] Right. Um okay, now we got a whole bunch of stuff. We're having some sort of like circulator uh extravagance, all sorts of stuff coming in on circulators, right? Because we had a circulator question last week on the Seattle Food Geek thing, right? So first, before before we do circulators, Dave, are you coming to the party on Sunday?
+
+[24:09] Sunday? Yeah. I don't know. It might come I don't know. I actually I think I'm away this Sunday.
+
+[24:14] Ah. But should we announce the party? Are there still tickets? There are still tickets. Sunday!
+
+[24:19] Sunday, Sunday! That's what I was looking for. Yeah, it's not it's not monster trucks though, right? What do we have? There will be there will be monster trucks.
+
+[24:27] Holy crap, monster trucks? I'm confirming it right now. Oh my god. Are we gonna do this thing at Yonkers Raceway? Where are we gonna do this?
+
+[24:33] That's basically where the party is, yeah. No, it's in the back garden of Robert's. It'll be awesome. Whole hog roast, uh, cocktails, etc. etc.
+
+[24:38] So if you email us now and you confirm that you found out about the party by listening to the show, I'll give you a special discount code. Just uh ask for me. Yeah, what kind of discount they're gonna get? Uh, you know, it's flexible, flexible discount. Ooh, I like the flex discount.
+
+[24:51] Yeah. Yeah. So info at heritage radio network.org. And uh if you're not in New York, get a raffle ticket, win a trip to Seattle. Yeah.
+
+[24:59] By the way, I don't know whether you guys know this, which I'm sure you do. Like this radio station here, this is a 501c3 kind of an operation. And uh, you know, Jack, Joe, Eddie, these guys all need to, you know, Aaron, who comes on every once in a while. These guys all need to like eat, they need to purchase food. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:16] Like the we need uh we need to keep this place on the air. So it helps to uh it it it helps to uh go to these events, and guess what? It's a win-win because you're gonna have a good time, and we get to keep uh providing programming. Am I right about this? Yeah, we can get coffee in the morning.
+
+[25:30] It really helps. Yeah, please, these guys need their coffee in the morning. I think I've got Piper on the line. Ooh, Piper. Uh so Piper, let me uh Hello Piper.
+
+[25:38] Hey Dave. So uh Alvin Schultz, uh who uh did uh some time at Booker and Dax the bar, uh hanging out, figuring out the stuff, uh, and also uh longtime listener here, had a question for you looking for food recommendations. Uh you you went to like uh Ho Chi Minh, right? Oh, that's what I was telling you. Oh, you didn't?
+
+[25:57] Where do you uh yeah, you want to win? So never mind. So you don't have any recommendations for Alvin, huh? Well t well, where where'd you go good in Hunoi? In case he makes it up.
+
+[26:06] Uh uh street food, honestly. You know what you know. You know where he is? He's in he's in Puquet, and I want everyone like when I was when I was and S the exact same thing. You know how we pronounced it when we were adolescents, right?
+
+[26:18] Anyway, so wait, so what'd you have there? Street food. He didn't go to any restaurants? Uh no. He said he was missing in his hotel room.
+
+[26:27] What? Yeah. Because it was too hot to go outside. How hot was it? Is this true, Piper, that you spent all of your time in your hotel room and only went out after dark to get street food?
+
+[26:37] No, I spent from noon till like two in the hotel room. It was too hot. Man. Stas is shaking her head and and making the Piper your busted face, which is another face that none of you will ever get to see. Alright, well, I I apologize for making you call in when you have no useful recommendations for uh Alvin.
+
+[26:57] Sorry about that. That's my favorite call in the history of the show. Alright. Sorry, Piper. You know what?
+
+[27:06] This is why I love Piper, because you can call Piper up and like say something like that, like, you know, I don't know. Do that, and he's he's fine. Pipe inside he's crying. Oh, Piper, good man. Piper's a good man.
+
+[27:19] Okay. Alvin also writes in, do you have any info on the history of pachuga style mezcals? Uh no. But except for the fact that, you know, I've always told the same story that uh that they put basically in the distillation flask so that it kind of uh it it reflux uh distills on uh a piece of meat. So different places would use different kinds of meat, so pachuga obviously used the chicken breast, but other people threw other kinds of meat into the kind of vapor chamber above where the uh mezcal was distilling, and that's where that comes from.
+
+[27:50] But as to why you would do that, only God knows. I don't know this story. But you know, I know some people uh from uh Del Mague and some others, so like you know, uh Ryan Fitzgerald and all these guys. I can next time I speak to them, Alvin, I'll I'll get some uh some history uh on that stuff for you. All right.
+
+[28:06] Uh and Alvin's last question. Uh what does Rhodovap Collection Flask what? What does Rhodovap Collection Flask boil late in the run? How to fix? What does that mean, Stas?
+
+[28:19] You figure out what that means. Oh. Why does it? No, no, no. What what collects?
+
+[28:24] Alvin, I gotta say, I don't exact what? It's like a riddle. It is a riddle. It's a complete riddle. Hey, by the way, uh one last non-cooking related thing.
+
+[28:32] So I have I I I need um the next drink that I come up with at the bar that we don't have a name for. You ready for this one? So Tristan Willie is, you know, one of the bar manager at uh Booker Index. It's his last name is Willie, right? So here's my favorite tongue twister.
+
+[28:46] I'm gonna name the next drink this, ready? Willie's real rear wheel. Say that. Willie's real rear wheel. Wow.
+
+[28:57] You can't say it, it's impossible. So I'm gonna have that be the name of the drink. No, no, I saw it. So tongue twisters, because you know I have kids, and so we're doing tongue twisters. I looked it up.
+
+[29:04] Willie's real rear wheel. And so I'm gonna write that just as the drink name, and it doesn't look imposing. Write it. It looks completely harmless. Can't be can't be said.
+
+[29:13] And so like customers are gonna be like really we're too and they're on their third Willie's. Anyway, so that's my next plan. Okay. Uh back to cooking related questions. So uh circulators.
+
+[29:28] Uh okay. Matt writes in, hey Nastashian crew, I'm working on a new product that will hopefully make Sous V cooking not just cheaper, but also better than current immersion circulator technology. Ooh, coming on coming on strong against the uh against uh our boy P Preston and our uh our boy uh Wee Pop Soupy Pot. AKA Supapipot from NomiCoo. Okay.
+
+[29:47] Uh my question for you guys is what would you like to see improved about current immersion circulators? Are there any pain points or missing features you can think of? Also, where can I send a demo unit once I get one? As I'd love to get your feedback. Well, uh, the address for Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation, if anyone ever wants to send us free stuff, uh, is 54 Eldridge Street storefront.
+
+[30:08] Yes. One New York, New York 1000 2. Uh so anyway, uh, so I don't know, like that's a good question. Like, uh, what's a hassle about about circulators? I mean, there's a lot that's kind of a hassle about them.
+
+[30:23] But there's a lot that's great about them as well. I mean, probably the power be nicer to have more power sometimes. I don't know. I mean, I'm so used to them, so used to what's cleaning them could be a little easier, right, Stas? I hate cleaning them out.
+
+[30:36] You hate well, you Stas never cleans it out. She doesn't give a rat's ass. You have one at home. What? The new one is easier to clean than the old one.
+
+[30:43] What, the plastic one? Yeah. Yeah, because it's got less parts, but it's it's more it's harder to clean in some ways because there's just more parts that you can't see whether they're dirty because they're inside the machine as opposed to the stainless, which got filthy. But uh anyway, it's a good question. Better know.
+
+[30:56] Uh I'd like to hear from people out there what they don't like about their circulators and what they think need to be changed. Regarding also circulators, uh, we had up a Seattle food geek did a circulator build. So uh Chris Hale wrote in regarding Seattle Food Geek circulator build. By the way, for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, very quickly, the circulators, the thing that allows you to keep uh water and sometimes other liquids at very constant temperatures. Absolutely necessary to do low temperature cooking, which is the greatest innovation in cooking in the last 200 years, in my opinion.
+
+[31:23] Seattle Food Geek circulator build. I followed that build and shopping list and had good results, but bending acrylic sucks because we were talking about the box enclosure last week for the uh circulators. Drilling it is frustrating and cutting it as impossible. Then it is hard to clean, not very durable, and looks like crap after a few months. If you don't have a laser C and CNC machine handy, and nobody does but Seattle Food Geek, don't use acrylic.
+
+[31:44] I busted up my acrylic box last week and installed the whole thing in a black ABS. ABS is a kind of plastic that people use, but you know, remember ABS can't uh get too too hot. Uh ABS project uh project box from Radio Shack. For this project, I recommend at least four inches tall by eight inches deep. I put mine in a six by four by three, and I spent most of the weekend rewiring it because the space was too cramped.
+
+[32:04] Then there was one time I plugged it in and welded my AC supply line to the relay, but I'm sure you're smart enough to keep the metal backing of the relay away from the power connections. By the way, one note on this I notice a lot of these DIY things use relays. I hate I hate mechanical relays for this application. Spend the extra three bucks and get everyone, listen to me. Spend the extra three bucks and get a solid state relay.
+
+[32:26] I hate that click, click, click, click that relays make. And I also hate the fact that they have mechanical things in them that can fail because of arcing when things go bad. So just get yourself a solid state relay. They have an infinite lifetime, basically, compared to uh solid state relay. They're never gonna go south on you unless you fry them out.
+
+[32:45] And uh they don't go click. Hate the click. Alright, so back back back to uh Chris's point here. Um but I'm sure you're smart enough to keep the metal backing of the relay away from the power connections. Anyway, uh once you drill a hole in ABS, you can use a file or hacksaw blade to make the hole whatever shape and size you need.
+
+[33:02] It won't crack and it's easy to clean. With some properly sized grommets, the holes for the power cord and circulator pump will be vaportight. It's a good word vaportight. That'd be a good band, right? Yeah.
+
+[33:10] Vaportight. Uh, which was never possible with the acrylic rig. As for the clamp to hold it on the edge of your pan, acrylic is unsuitable for that too. That's true, that will crack. Uh, try a piece of sheet metal or half of a sturdy plastic box held to the project box with screws.
+
+[33:22] Then attach a couple of spring clamps. They're so much faster than some screws, thumb screws, even if they aren't as versatile. Uh, as far as what kind of container you can use them on. Good luck and happy circulating from Chris Hale. And also, uh Criptamp writes in for your question last week.
+
+[33:37] I use an aluminum bar bent with hands over a steel railing, not acrylic, uh, for uh mounting this the uh heater on. In fact, he has no housing at all, so he put the uh electronics for it on the on the outside, just attached by wires over on the other side of the thing. I will say, cryotamp or cryptamp, that uh your situation not exactly OSHA friendly because it looks like I could get zapped pretty good if I didn't pay attention, but I'm sure it will work. And when I made my own circulators and didn't care about getting zapped, I did get zapped all the time. Let's say, look.
+
+[34:07] Oh, is Piper giving us crap for calling him out? He hasn't mailed the torch yet. Um, whatever. Okay, uh we have in from uh Joe Blow. Joe Blow says, People say cooking squid or octopus either needs to be cooked for very long or very quickly.
+
+[34:28] Nothing in between. Why? What's the science behind this? And I gotta say, uh it's another one of those things that I just uh you know, it's just you take it for granted that you, you know, you don't know. And here's the other thing.
+
+[34:39] I read a bunch of scientific papers on uh squid uh and octopus, and uh most of the work on that stuff was done uh in the 80s, um uh and you know, around then in the mid 80s, and the people who were doing it had the typical problem of a lot of scientists when they're doing these kinds of papers, they just they didn't cook it properly. So there's no no one no one did the right experiment from a uh science paper standpoint saying like what exactly is going on in the muscles between a short cook, uh the medium, and the long cook, the toughness in between. However, you can kind of deduce based on uh what's going on that um what's happening. So the interesting thing is squid and octopus uh muscle is very different from uh vertebrate muscles, right? So, first of all, uh it there's uh the the protein compositions are different.
+
+[35:32] So there's much more uh myofibrillar protein, in other words, the actual muscle fiber protein uh in um in squid muscle, as opposed to the sarcoplasmic proteins, which are the ones kind of surrounding and in the cells that aren't the myofibral uh proteins. So those are the ones that actually cause the contraction. This is because squids some strong contraction that sucker, so they can go, right? So they have more of those uh myofibrillar proteins that are gonna cause toughness when they denature. Also, they uh they have pro they have uh fibers running in two different directions, around, right, so they can squeeze, and then also radially, so they can bend and do all sorts of stuff.
+
+[36:12] So they got this this kind of two-direction muscle fiber action going on. Also, the proteins are a little more soluble than they are, so they tend to swell up and bind together and shrink like a mother much more than uh like uh vertebrate proteins do, or even you know, fish yeah, well they're vertebrates duh. So the so here's what happens. My my feeling is that if you before you totally denature those things and they shrink up, which happens somewhere between 50 and 60 Celsius, uh, before that happens, or it happens really quickly, you're gonna have a tender product that you can get on the rare low side. Then as soon as you shrink those suckers, they're gonna be hard like like rubbery like rocks until you cook the ever-loving snot out of them and break those uh stuff.
+
+[36:56] They also have a fairly high pro portion of uh connective tissue in them too. That is giant octopus we cooked? That was awesome, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that one of the I said this like a million times, but like uh, you know, we got a giant uh octopus tentacle.
+
+[37:09] Every octopus tentacle, by the way, tastes a little different because some are more dominant than others, and the octopus tentacle tastes different from the from the tip to the uh to where it attaches to the animal. Uh the tip is a little more, I think, kind of like a little more gummy, a little more like, you know, and I like this stuff kind of in the middle, actually. But anyway, so uh that is what I think is uh going on. Some other interesting things about squid uh and octopus, there's a have a high level of uh pro uh um protein breaking down, protonase uh enzymes in them. And so I would think that prolonged heating, I haven't tested this, but I would think the prolonged heating in the 60-degree range before you ramp it up would also make it very tender.
+
+[37:48] But here's another interesting paper for you. Uh at least interesting to me. Is how gross is this? You ready for this, Doz? And I'll tell you why it's interesting.
+
+[37:55] Tenderization of squid, uh Loligo uh vulgaris, which is loligos are uh uh they're uh a genus of squid uh that are mainly kind of uh they live near the bottom of the ocean, right? Lolligos. And uh illex uh coin deal the ilux ones are the are the more fast swimming kind of ocean-e squids, um, with bromelain, which is a uh pro you know protein tenderizer, right? And you ready for this one? Bovine spleen lysosomal enriched extract.
+
+[38:26] How'd you like to sprinkle that all over your squid? Gross. Gross. But the but here's the here's the really interesting thing that I had never uh thought of before, and um something maybe for you guys to think about is usually when you're thinking about what's happening with protein extracts, uh what you're what you're thinking about is um that things get mushy, right? Because you're breaking down the structure of the proteins.
+
+[38:51] And for something like meat, when you break it down, that's good because it tenderizes, but usually in fish it makes it mushy. But things don't necessarily break down in kind of uh a very uniform way. So both of those things, the bovine spleen lysosome extract and the uh and the bromelane are protease enzymes, but the bromeline, and you can look at the in this paper, it's very interesting. The bromaline, when you treat it with it, makes the squid mushy, and people don't like it. It's more tender, whereas uh the the lysosome, this the spleen, the bovine spleen extract, uh tenderizes it in such a way that it just reduces the shear force the same in all of the parameters of the tasting of the squid.
+
+[39:33] So it reduces springiness by the same amount that it reduces hardness all the way around. It just makes it more tender, but still keeps the same textural properties of squid. So it looks like there's a whole world out there of uh protein breaking down of protein, you know, protonase enzymes out there that we could use to make things more tender without making them mushy, which is something I had never thought of before. Another interesting thing about uh endogenous, meaning inside of the tissue already, uh squid enzymes, is that they are active at alkaline pHs. So soaking in acidity you'd think would make the stuff harder, and there are some research that says that it does.
+
+[40:09] And another thing is is that treating squid with phosphate salts as a brine beforehand and salt in general, the phosphate salts, which I think they don't give a reason for it, but I think it's because it makes it more basic, more alkaline, will help the enzymes more rapidly break down the protein. So phosphate treatments of squid that take it into the slightly uh uh alkaline, like 7.4 range instead of like the slightly um uh acidic range, maybe help the squid get a little softer. Uh and wait, we have time for one time, one more thing. Yeah. Gun.
+
+[40:40] I thought I can talk about one more thing before you can get that thing today now. What thing? Oh, yeah, it's does I'm gonna pound some lunch. So I'm gonna have a giant calzone for for lunch. I'm just gonna eat this whole calzone just by myself.
+
+[40:52] I read this uh crazy paper on uh you ever notice how people uh when they write papers on uh on frying things, they always uh want to reduce the oil in things. That's all everyone ever cares about when they write papers on frying, they want to reduce the oil. So check this out. So when you're making um industrially, when you're making fried things uh for freezing, what you do is is you make your product, you throw in a bunch of gums and all this stuff, and then you f you pre-fry your product, right? And then after you pre-fry it to set the batter, then uh you freeze it, and then when you re-fry it, you cook the batter all the way through, right?
+
+[41:23] Mm-hmm. Make sense? Okay. So um so it's a well-known fact that if you add methyl cellulose to batters, you decrease the oil absorption of the batters because methylcellulose and you know hydroxypropomethylcellos, they have the interesting pro uh property that when they gel when they heat up. Okay.
+
+[41:39] So what's happening is uh you is in water, uh it a hot water, it forms a gel. And this is why it's used in pie filling so that the pie filling doesn't boil out of crust. It's used in barbecue sauces to increase adhesion when they're on the grill and being heated. It's used to make uh those noodles that set when you spray them into soups in in kind of modern cooking, and uh, you know, dumplings that don't bother, you know, the f all those kinds of things, methylcellulose. So, well known fact that if you put it into batters, it decreases oil absorption.
+
+[42:09] These guys dope the hell out of it. They've patented this, believe this or not, in two thousand I didn't know if you could patent stuff like this in two thousand and two. What they do is they make a really loose uh batter thing and then they boil their freaking chicken nuggets like dumplings with methylcellulose in it, then give you this kind of boiled nugget which you then fry later. Doesn't that sound weird? Yeah.
+
+[42:28] Gross, huh? But I kinda wanna try it and see what happens. These kind of boiled methyl cell batter dumplings and then fried. But I don't really see the advantage because I don't really believe that I want to decrease the amount of oil that's in uh my fried foods. Do you mean like you've had my fried foods?
+
+[42:43] They're good. Do you feel that you need to reduce the amount of oil in it? No. No. See, I see like oil is organoleptically delicious.
+
+[42:50] And so like the trick is you don't want your suc stuff to be greasy, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily want to reduce the oil that's on the inside of it. Lunacy. Alright, so the gun. So uh it's a puffing gun, you know, uh as I've said many times, I'll say one more time. Uh what what it is is uh is it's a chamber that you fill with kind of whatever you want, and then you it has the stuff that you fill it with has uh a water content somewhere between twelve and sixteen percent water.
+
+[43:19] You uh seal it tight, you heat it with uh about two hundred thousand BTUs of uh gas flame, you spin it so that it doesn't scorch anywhere, and it heats up to like three hundred and seventy degrees Fahrenheit and like a hundred and fifty to hundred and eighty Psi, and then you hit you hit the sucker with a giant stick, the door flies open, the stuff explodes uh in in puffs because the the water that's inside instantly turns to a steam paper. Well, so we were testing it because uh we had a bunch of people suggesting what we should test, and things that you would expect to work well, like rice, did work well. Although I couldn't taste it when we were making them last week. I tasted them this this week and they were kind of soft, right? I think we need to do some post-dehydration.
+
+[43:57] Were they soft when we were puffing them? Yeah. So we just need to do some post-dehydration before we serve them. They add a little bit of crunch to them. Yeah, but if you're gonna store them for any length of time, they need to be.
+
+[44:07] Yeah, okay. So we did sushi rice, delicious. I'm told. Actually, I tasted it. It tastes good, but the texture wasn't right when I had it.
+
+[44:14] Red basmati rice puffed very well. Popcorn's amazing because they puff into balls, which is pretty cool. Uh buckwheat was kind could be good, wasn't good when we did it, but could theoretically be good, right? Lentils. Okay, so then we tried uh so all the stuff that should have worked work.
+
+[44:30] Now, we have not had any luck with uh with I'm sorry, folks, to we have not had any luck with our weird and alternative stuff yet, right? So first thing we put we do, we were like, how about some red lentils? Red lentils, red lentils, right? Because Peter's like, I love red lentils, I love them. So, like, you know, he doesn't talk like that.
+
+[44:47] Mike kind of does. But anyway, so then like we load the sucker up with red lentils, and uh we heat it up, and I'm standing up there, and I hit it, and uh and we're up at like 160 PSI. Instantly, the entire heritage uh Heritage Foods USA warehouse is filled with lentil dust. The entire place is coated with burnt red lentil dust. The entire place smells like burnt red lentil dust.
+
+[45:13] My like my clothes were covered in in red lentil dust, everything was just red lentil dust. And I was like, I thought it was just a little bit, and I'm like, where is it? Every single lentil had been vaporized. Is that true, Stas? Yeah, that's crazy.
+
+[45:24] So I don't know how you did it that day on your cleanse when everyone eating, puffing things. Yeah, yeah, I know. Like, it's time to eat lunch, guys. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, everyone's like stuffing their face.
+
+[45:34] I'm sitting there working, like not eating anything, working like a demon. Yeah, on top of this like flaming gun. I'm sweating, I'm sweating, not eating anything, and then I can't get other people to like work because they're shoving sandwiches in their face. Lunchtime, Dave. I'm like, well, you know, it goes back to what Stas always says.
+
+[45:53] I'm an animal. Machine. Machine. Mule. Pack mule.
+
+[45:56] Machine. Idiot. Anyway. So uh then so we had this problem with uh we originally planned on the puffing gun to have glass uh around it, right? And then uh on our first Kickstarter test when we exploded our plexigl plexi, we're like, maybe we should switch to Lexan.
+
+[46:11] You know, maybe not a good idea to throw shards of glass into into into people's eyes during a thing. So then we put Lexan up and we realized that it steams up almost instantly and you can't see through it. So then we're like, okay, so we're gonna test a screen, right? So we go to Home Depot and we put uh like a literally like a window screen up, and then then after we put up the window screen, we decide to test chickpeas and soybeans, right? Let me tell you something.
+
+[46:35] Not only did that that not work, but the chickpeas and soybeans blasted through the netting and like hit us. Made holes. Made holes through the netting and hit us like like like like buckshot, like babies, right? So anyway, so we have no luck with chickpeas. We have no luck with soybeans, although I feel that we could get it right.
+
+[46:53] We did pasta. When pasta comes out of the puffing gun, as opposed to pasta that you you know puff using the traditional chef's technique of puffing pasta. Uh, when you puff it in the gun, it looks like describe it, Stas. It's like gnarled. Some sort of like weird asteroid, like gnarled craziness, deformed thing.
+
+[47:11] It's like it's like imagine it's puffing like in like a 300 mile an hour wind. You know why? Because it's puffing in a 300 mile an hour wind. You know what I mean? It's like this pasta, it's like, you know, what what even shape were those?
+
+[47:23] Were those like penne or something? Uh Chicilli, I think. We did like a couple, yeah. We had one with their lines in it, though. Yeah, we did it if we see it.
+
+[47:29] But imagine like that's puffing and flying out of the gun at a zillion miles an hour, and it just has this warped freakish look to it. It was weird. What do you think of that stuff? The taste. What the look of it?
+
+[47:41] The look was weird. Yeah, weird. Some people liked it because it looks like pasta chicha. Uh I want to do chicken skins and things like that. Anyway, so uh we will let you know as we test it out.
+
+[47:54] Uh what it's not next week, it's the week after the puff party, right? It's Tuesday. Next Tuesday is a puff party? Yeah. So I'll report back from the morning of the puff party next week.
+
+[48:04] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[48:35] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your hook of what? Your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a birth pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack and Joe in the engineering booth.
+
+[0:48] How's everyone doing? See what happens when you miss two weeks? Can't even do the intro. I didn't miss I miss one week. Oh yeah.
+
+[0:54] Well. But you know, of course you're gonna trip up on the word host. I scared literally, like these guys, like at the there's a table that sits right by the radio window, and they're like, what the what the and they're they're gone. Call negotiations to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:09] And I haven't said this in a while, but uh true. Uh remember, you can call us with pretty much any question, right, guys? I mean, it doesn't have to be technical. I mean, usually is, but uh Nastasha, speaking of technical right now, this is like a very meta Nastasha moment. She's reading, uh, as we say, we she noticed because she looks at things, believe it or not.
+
+[1:28] The uh they have a book that was shipped in to us, not us, but uh the radio, the radio station, called the Vegan Stoner Cookbook. So Nastasha is gonna have a definition of the vegan stoner, which is one who satisfies the munchies with resourceful creative, instinctive cooking without using animal products. Wait, say it again. One who satisfies the munchies with resourceful, creative, instinctive cooking without using animal products. Are you are you can you do instinctive things when you're stoned out of your mind?
+
+[1:59] Or is it pretty like I like look, I'm not I'm not a stoner, but mo most of my f friends who like who hit up quite a lot, uh they don't necessarily make their best cooking decisions when they're stoned out of their mind. Just saying. And all their fruits and vegetables are have a stoner face going on in this. Yeah. Well, you know, look, hopefully pretty soon.
+
+[2:20] Uh I mean, look, I have some friends who are kind of very deep into um cooking and making liquor products with uh with cannabis. And um, you know, maybe soon it'll be legal for me to work on those things as well. But uh I mean I I've never I've never really tried tried that stuff out. You uh she's looking at these vegetables are they like the vegetables in the book are quite they're they they look it's not Nastasha's vegan face, I'll tell you that. These guys are much different vegan face.
+
+[2:52] Much different vegan face. They're all their eyes are all at half mast. It's pretty yeah. I predict at least three write ins or call ins related to this subject now. Yeah, so we'll see.
+
+[3:01] Well, why don't you call out the uh authors of the book here who we don't know these guys? We got a call coming in right now, hold on. Hello, caller, you're on the air. This is John Doe calling in uh talk to me today. How are you doing?
+
+[3:14] It's me, it's Dave. What's up? Hey, what's up? Nothing online? Yeah, yeah, you were on air.
+
+[3:19] Uh by the way, uh John Doe, uh big help at the puff party uh event that we had last Tuesday. I thought well based success, didn't you think so? Yeah, it was awesome. It was uh really cool to be able to puff the stuff I brought as well. And yeah, you learned everything all about the puffing gun and the moisture tester and all that stuff.
+
+[3:37] It was a blast. Your mix of uh it was Teff, uh what was it, what was the th it was Teff, Tapioca, what was the third? And millet. Millet. Man, that was the I think the best puff we had uh of the evening.
+
+[3:50] Uh I thought that that stuff was delicious. Although later, by the way, for those who don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about an explosive puffing gun that the Museum of Food and Drink has as their first kind of temporary exhibit. And uh when we so uh you know, John Doe uh came and uh puffed a bunch of stuff with us, including that mix I just told you about. And it was the best, by far far and away the best. So then when we did the Saturday public event, we got some tapioca pearls and puffed them just on their own, and they turned into giant like like cumulus cloud styro balls.
+
+[4:25] It was the weirdest thing ever. It was not as good the tapioca when we did it without the full mix of stuff. Really interesting. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.
+
+[4:34] So um kind of wanted to call the follow-up and uh um give you guys the shout out, ex especially uh Piper and Nastasha for showing me such hospitality. And also uh headed over to uh BDX and got some rye drinks from Nick and uh he uh cooked me up some uh pretty amazing stuff. Nice. Nice. But uh I also had some questions.
+
+[4:53] Uh kind of wanted to follow up on uh suggestions for puffing. Um we had talked, um Piper and I kinda uh concocted some possibility of uh throwing some cocoa nibs in with um some rice uh to be able to make, you know, cocoa puffs, uh auto cocoa puffs. Um I was just wondering what your your thoughts are on our um on that. Well I mean my feeling is i it like when we put things in that are weird, like for instance the last puff of the day that we did on Saturday, we threw in uh almonds and um lobster and and uh what? Lobster shells.
+
+[5:30] No, that was on the party day. And then uh sunflower seeds and a bunch of stuff. Didn't puff. Uh I don't know that cocoa I I'd have to look up cocoa nibs. My f my strong feeling is something that high in oil will tend to melt out.
+
+[5:42] I mean I know maybe not though, in the present in the lack of water. I mean, we'll try it someday, but as you say, we'll try it in an absence of um i mean sorry, i i in with a multitude of other stuff so that it's the minor constituent. This way, if it goes horribly wrong, the horrible wrongness can be absorbed uh by the rest of the batch and not all over the inside of the gun. Like we notice that when we make mistakes, the mistakes tend to melt themselves onto the inside of the gun and then require require kind of a uh bit of a hardcore cleaning. That happened in one of our tapioca batches actually.
+
+[6:16] We had to run a clean uh mid event on Saturday because the tapioca completely melted itself to the inside. And once it when it's melted and open, it carburizes very quickly but doesn't solidify fast enough to flake it off, and so you get this kind of sludge in the gun. Which but but but more and uh again I couldn't find our c our green coffee because I know I want to puff green coffee uh as well. But a lot of that has to do with the starch content. I don't know if you know, but Sweet Maria's has a pretty cool site.
+
+[6:46] It it pretty much you know breaks everything down. It's it's a ridiculous information gathering site for anybody who wants to roast coffee. Yeah, I used to I used to buy my green beans from them. But back when I used to roast uh I used to roast my own all the time. Uh it was, you know, for years that was my ritual.
+
+[7:03] That I used to buy beans from them. Yeah. Okay, cool. Um I I just had a side question on a project I'm working on. I'm trying to make fish sauce bacon.
+
+[7:12] And, you know, basically I've been um, you know, doing the standard uh dry cure plus adding a little bit of fish sauce. I can't seem to get enough fish sauce bump into it. I mean I can kind of feel that there's extra umami, but I want to really juice it up and I was thinking about doing um, you know, basically uh boiling off the liquid and creating you know, uh creating a fish salt to do the curing process and add the nitrates afterwards. Right. And I'm wondering if I'm gonna lose anything in terms of flavor when I do that.
+
+[7:43] And obviously I don't have a rotary evaporator, but um what you had in terms of thoughts on that. Yeah, you're gonna lose a lot. I mean, like depend look, you're gonna lose a lot anyway on the cook off of the bacon, right? But I mean so much of uh so much of fish sauce, I mean look, fish sauce is a couple of different things. It's salty, right?
+
+[8:04] It's it's high in uh umami because of uh protein and lipid breakdown product. Well, not not um because of lipid but protein breakdown products, but it also got a lipid breakdown products in there, right? Uh and so but it has a huge volatile component as well. So my feeling is is you'll be able to get you know, a lot of the more stable stuff in there, but you're gonna lose a lot of the volatile um characteristics of it. I don't know what the salt content of a standard fish sauce is, but they're w they're widely variant depending on brand.
+
+[8:38] I remember that from my research years ago. Um but um you don't want to just you don't want the high liquids content. Is that the is that the problem? I would just Yeah, I mean I I l I like the fact that when you dry chur it stays flat and you don't lose a lot of liquid. I mean, I realized that I could do an injection method uh like they do in industry, so I could try that too, right?
+
+[8:59] Well, I mean what you could do is you could dry it, right, and then you could just have you you could sorry, you're right, inject it wet, but then just go through a little bit of a uh relatively high um a relatively high uh uh humidity dry down period in the fridge before you smoke it out. You know what I'm saying? Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Flash off some of the extra moisture that you put into it by injecting, but my my feeling is is that if you really want that flavor uh of fish sauce, which you know, every every you know uh some people they don't like the smell of it, but they're just mistaken. This you know the stuff is delicious.
+
+[9:38] Uh if you want that, then you know, I I would go with uh I would use very little else uh because my guess I mean it depends on the fish sauce you use, but it's probably pretty close to what you need, right? I mean uh I mean is it uh I I gotta remember the percentages of it, but then and and then just let a little bit of the moisture uh flash off under controlled uh conditions of temperature for a while prior to smoked down. Okay, sounds good. So just as a close out, uh I was wondering if you had a chance to try uh the IPA I dropped off at BDX. I haven't.
+
+[10:12] I'm going there I'm going there tonight. I'm gonna hopefully get a hold of it tonight and we'll give you a shout out next week. Awesome. Well, that's if it's well, let me know if it's good or bad. Um we thought it came out pretty good.
+
+[10:21] Alright, well, what was your uh what was your uh uh initial gravity on that? Alright, cheers. Wait, wait, wait, what was the OG on the IPA? Do you what would what was the uh what was the uh OG? What was the specific gravity on the wart?
+
+[10:34] Do you remember? Uh we didn't really um go through that whole process. We were kind of drinking and smoking things um in terms of meat. Right. Uh so we were just kind of doing uh uh quick brew, so we didn't pay attention too much to that's how smoking meats not smoking what the vegan stoner is smoking, presumably.
+
+[10:53] Exactly. All right. All right. Well uh we'll uh we'll we'll let you know what happens. All right, cheers.
+
+[10:59] Uh cheers, thanks for calling in. Uh okay. Oh, by the way, back to the vegan stoner thing. Did you see the uh did you were you watching the CNN Sanjay Gupta's weed thing? Oh yeah, I saw that.
+
+[11:09] You saw I thought I was really interested by that. Why don't you give a synopsis? Uh unless we did not watch it. Well the synopsis is that uh you know, remember when um remember when Peter Tosh said legalize marijuana in in a Jamaica. Remember this?
+
+[11:24] He has a song, he has several songs actually on the subject, but you know, it goes through the medicinal uh the medicinal benefits of uh marijuana and turns out that it's probably true. You know? Anyway. Uh so uh Landon Young writes uh writes in on the Twitter. He's at Food Geeky.
+
+[11:41] Uh cooking issues, planning a Vitamix versus the competition blend off. What tasks would show off slash reveal the blender's strengths and weaknesses. I like that it's uh Vitamix versus everybody else. Now listen. Listen, here's the deal.
+
+[11:56] There's a couple of things that that it are hard to judge. And and uh, you know, I remember I think it was I forget who it was, it was either Consumer Reports or um what's it what's the one that uh from Boston, the magazine from Boston. I I was an initial subscriber, uh Cooks Illustrated. Uh did a uh did a I was I was one of the I was a charter I had the charter issues of that. That's awesome.
+
+[12:16] Yeah, it's good it was yeah. Anyway, it's wrong. But the uh the point is is that people often do the wrong things with blenders and don't really show off why uh Vitaprep is such a piece of butt kicking machinery, right? Now uh for instance, w most of the time when people review it, they're like, Does it make a smoothie as fast as uh some of the other blenders? Is it smoothie?
+
+[12:40] Nobody cares. Uh in a kitchen, a professional kitchen, nobody cares about a smoothie, right? What was it? What? You have a collar.
+
+[12:46] Oh, all right. We'll get back to the blenders in a second. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave and everyone else. Um I just wanted to call in and ask um a little more information about Ikmay.
+
+[12:59] Oh nice um, which I understand a little bit about. I know it's the process of you know, killing fish and inserting rods into their spinal cord to prevent or I guess um kind of delay rigomortis. But right. What is the real reason people do it? Um I guess I heard like firmer flesh, but like what are the upsides and downsides?
+
+[13:25] And why not more people do? Okay. That uh excellent questions. By the way, you wanna do you wanna call out your name or no? Oh, hi, I'm Kate.
+
+[13:33] Hey Kate. So the uh f first of all, e ikajime in general is the whole battery of uh Japanese fish killing techniques, okay. And then the specific technique of uh destroying the spinal cord is uh they've told me is called uh uh Shinke Nuki, which means like no spine, I think, right? And it involves running uh a a wire up the spinal cord. So all the Japanese fish killing techniques are designed, whether or not you believe they work or not, are designed to uh increase the quality of the uh of the of the fish flesh.
+
+[14:10] I've noticed it most most pronounced in um in the firmness and the texture of of the fish although there are some taste differences we've noticed as well and uh also the you know we have found that the it's more it's makes more of a difference in raw prepped as opposed to cooked prepped although some people disagree with me but that this but so that that's what it is but the the idea is this it in an in a nutshell is that the standard Western style killing technique of just whacking it something over the head or bleeding it out while it's alive or letting it suffocate to death uh in a well of a boat uh is puts a lot of stress on the fish as it's dying and the stress from the the fish dying whether it's you know because of hypoxia because it doesn't have enough oxygen or whether it's uh you know blunt trauma and bleed out all this stuff or you know just uh what you know whatever's pumping through the fish's system as it's as it's in its fight or flight uh mode uh the all of those things have uh deleterious qualities on the quality of the flesh from an eating standpoint now the ekigime especially the spinal cord destruction right so equijime starts with uh severing the brain's connection to the rest of the of the fish right so you're shutting off all of the you're shutting off all of the transmissions from the brain to the muscles of the fish and presumably therefore shutting off the ability of the dying fish brain to make changes to its uh body chemistry now they so the the way that I was taught originally was just to sever the spinal cord, but on larger fish, I really think it's a better idea to, and they make these special curved knives, that you actually take out the brain of the fish prior to severing the spinal cord, right? Now, when you when you sever the spinal cord, this the spinal cord severing it both at the tail and at the front is also a bleeding technique because uh you know the belief in Japan, and I think you know, it's pretty much borne out that you want to get most of the blood out, and by severing the uh the arteries uh near the head and at the tail, you get a fairly efficient pump out of blood into water. So that's why you'll see in these techniques the fish will be cut and then bled in water often to get most of the salt water, usually isotonic, hopefully, to the fish's blood system, pump out the blood to get a well-bled fish. Okay. Now, so the then the real question is, and it seems fairly easy to understand that you're going to influence the quality of the fish flesh by uh quickly killing the brain or severing the spinal cord.
+
+[16:44] The interesting question is this extra step of shoving a wire up the spinal cord, well, what the hell can that accomplish, right? Right. Well, it turns out that uh the spinal cord continues to send electrical impulses to the muscles uh even in the absence of uh you know uh central nervous system control from the brain. So what what happens is is that uh if you don't destroy the spinal cord, especially in very uh kind of long swimming, like pelagic style fish like tuna, striped bass, these kinds of things, um, the the spinal cord will continue to send messages to the muscle to contract, and therefore the muscles will uh the muscles will use more ATP, which is the energy store of the muscle, uh, than they will if you destroy the spinal cord. And the faster the ATP is used up, the faster the fish goes into rigor mortise, and usually the harder the fish goes into rigor mortise.
+
+[17:42] And fish flesh is so delicate that hard rigor can actually do damage such that when it comes out of rigor mortise, that fish is um it starts having uh gaping in the in the in the in the flesh that the flesh is softer and not as firm as it would be had you delayed rigor mortise. And so that's kind of the the those are the overarching reasons for the techniques. Okay. Um and I guess is it primarily um I mean the texture but also like is it so people can keep the fish longer or something? Like can that I mean so so s what we used to call Western style fish killing when we did it was you know it it does deteriorate more quickly, but the interesting thing about Ikajima look fish actually isn't best the second you catch it, regardless of what you know anyone's going to tell you.
+
+[18:34] Very few preparations taste good with I mean there's a there's whole nations of people with billions of people that will disagree with me on this. But you know most of us in uh either a Japanese style preparation most Japanese style preparations or in a western style preparation prefer a fish that's come out of rigor mortise, right? And and everybody knows you have to either you have to either eat the fish before it goes into rigor, which means instantaneously after death you have to cook it or you have to wait for it to go through rigor. And even if you do it before rigor sets in, uh you know it's still going to be a lot firmer and almost crunchy for a lot of preparations and you can use that to your advantage. But um you really kind of want the fish to come out out of rigor.
+
+[19:15] So it's true that when you have something that has had the spinal cord destroyed, it takes longer for it to come out of rigor. So its optimum eating point usually happens after the optimum eating point of a standard Western style kill fish. But uh that fish at its best is usually for the ones where it responds well to this technique, uh, is usually at its its best is usually much better than the Western style variant, and the Western style variant will get softer and mushier much faster than the um than the spinal cord uh ablated one will. And as to your other question I didn't answer, which is why don't more people do it, well, part of it is education and part of it is is high cost. Um and the and the other thing is that you know if you if you take a fish and you um and you pull it on a boat and it's had a huge fight, right?
+
+[20:09] It's already gone through a lot of the problems that are going to cause it to, you know, it's it's exhausted most of its ATP. It's uh, you know, it's it's gone through a lot already, and so the benefits might be marginal at that point. You know, when you're when they're killing a very high value fish like tuna, uh, especially in farm situations, they will uh electrostun so the fish doesn't know anything that's happening, pull it up on deck and and put the spinal cord uh do the spinal cord ablation because they know that the market value of the fish is so high. Uh you know, there's also experiments in um there's experiments in uh Australia and New Zealand, not experiments, they're commercial, where uh in New Zealand you're allowed to use uh fish anesthetic aqueest, which is based on clove oil, isousinol, and they use that to anesthetize the fish prior to bleed out because they've seen that the uh a less afraid or less uh, you know, whatever you want to call, you know, what's going on in the fish's brain prior to slaughter, is that if there's less of that going on, that the quality is uh is better. And so those guys, it's not approved, or at least wasn't last time I looked here in the US, strangely, but uh it's an ongoing area of research, and most of it's driven by economics.
+
+[21:14] Cool. Um yeah, I guess I guess that explains it. I just heard the term recently and looked it up and thought I should call an ask. Yeah, well, please. Uh you know, I I love it.
+
+[21:32] I haven't had a uh I haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of experimenting with it uh recently. My hope was always that the more we bring attention to it as a technique, the more um you know, fish sellers will start to you know to demand this process both side and then uh demand a premium price for it. And then if you people start calling it out, then you'll see more of it in the marketplace, especially for things that we intend to eat as sushi grade. And so it's you know, the the idea isn't that most of us are ever going to practice it or that restaurant-wise, you should practice it because by the time a live fish makes it to a restaurant, it's been pretty abused, usually. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:10] Um the idea is is to uh have people um accept the general um ex accept the the benefits of the practice and pay more pay more for it, and then it'll happen more, I think. Great. Cool. All right. Well, thank you.
+
+[22:25] Thank you. Thanks for calling in. All right, so back to the Vita Prep. So about a quick break. Oh, all right.
+
+[22:30] Uh we'll take a quick break coming up. We had a shout out Chris Hubbing, who became a member, listener of cooking issues. Thanks for the support. Thank you. Thank you.
+
+[22:39] We're coming back with cooking issues. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org. The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef's Story.
+
+[23:54] Check out our ICC website at international culinary center dot com. Jack, is that your magical Zamphere stuff in the background? Oh, yeah. I like that. It's like you know, spa it's like a the uh space space center.
+
+[24:09] It's like it's like music NASA would play. Yeah, planetarium music, basically. Yeah. Yeah, like that. All right, good.
+
+[24:14] For vegan stoners. V Vegan Stoners Planetarium ICC music. Exactly. I would love to see Dorothy stoned out of her mind. Oh wow.
+
+[24:23] Oh uh did I say that on air? Anyway. All right. Uh apparently we have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hi, this is Patrick calling from Orient New York.
+
+[24:31] Where's Orient New York? I've been I think I've been there. Where is it? It's at the very, very tip of the North Fork of Long Island. Uh no, I haven't.
+
+[24:38] Right on there. I'm thinking of Maine. There's an Orient, Maine, I've been to. Go ahead. So I have a question about canning or really preserving fish in oil in jars.
+
+[24:49] I've sort of I've been trying it without fully curing a fish, just salting it lightly overnight in the refrigerator, then barely cooking it in water and then covering it in oil. And this way I know it's not fully cured, it's not really safe to have it at room temperature, but it seems to last like a week or two in the fridge without any ill effects. Right. Um and it tastes really, really good, even if you just use uh a neutral cooking oil. The question I have is now I have access to a huge amount of bluefish out here that I sort of would like to make a lot of this before the season ends, and I'm wondering if it's suicidal to to use this method, you know, without without doing the full, you know, boil for three hours, pressure tan, etc.
+
+[25:34] That's sort of the traditional uh fish preservation technique. Right. That's a very interesting question. And you know, uh I can't make any offhand uh I'll I'll say this. If you if you add nitrites to it, right?
+
+[25:50] I don't know if you want to, but you know look, everyone knows what we're talking about here. We're worried about botulism, right? Uh and and other kind of there are some other, especially in fish actually, some some uh some cold tolerant um spore forming pathogens, I'm pretty sure. I gotta it's been a while since I've looked up this this process. But fish keeping is is a whole science and of it of itself, and people definitely remember preserve things for long periods, think locks, uh in a frid in a fridge environment that haven't been cooked to hell.
+
+[26:22] Right? Uh but I believe you're gonna want to add there's a couple things you need to know. You need to know what the moisture content of it is and you need to know how much salt you're gonna add. And then you're gonna want to add I would guess for safety's sake s some nitrites to it. And if you um not AIDS ITS, but if and if you if you get the right combination of that and I'm sure this is look upable on the web, then as long as you aren't going to store it at room temperature, if you're gonna keep it refrigerated, you could probably uh make a safe product that's fairly close to what you're doing.
+
+[26:58] It's not going to be shelf stable. It's not canned. But you could probably make something that will inhibit uh the growth of the of the kind of really nasty uh stuff in the fridge. Uh but I'm I'm a hesitant to give you any actual numerical recommendations over the air without doing a lot of research first. But this is this is I was I was looking up traditional recipes and these sort of you know they have you cook the hell out of the fish for like you know for a long period and then can it that so I guess you know that that will destroy the texture of the fish.
+
+[27:31] I mean I'm not I don't have access to a canner where I am the first place. Right. It seems like that the best flavor on the small scale extern experiments I've done have been on stuff that's not it doesn't feel fully cured once it's once it's out you know out of the salt. It sort of it has it just has a texture slight texture still fresh fish. So it seems to be that that's what I'm sort of worried about is that the best flavor is not something that's gonna be safe at the cure level with the amount of salt and and like you said, adding adding adding nitrite to it as well.
+
+[28:03] Right. Well, remember the cooking itself isn't isn't obliterating the really dangerous stuff. It's obliterating the normal stuff. It's the canning that obliterates the normal stuff. And the reason that you probably have to cook the crap out of it first is because you're probably getting rid of water at that point.
+
+[28:19] You're lowering the water activity through a cooking. I mean, think about how uh confie works. You know? You're you you do a long cook on it, and the meat is salty and dry. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:30] In a good way. I mean, I happen to love confie. But but you know, you're you're like the cook step isn't just a cook step, it's also a water control measure. Um although you you could do a straight pressure can of the fish without the initial cook step after the curing and get a higher mush, but it's still gonna be cook you're gonna be cooking the hell out of it. I would I mean the the other the other thought I had is this something that once you cover it in oil and let it, you know, I don't know, it's a fl the flavor has pretty much been the same over you know one day versus 14 days in the fridge, so it seems to not really age that much after after the in the cure and the cooking.
+
+[29:10] Is this something that you could actually put in the freezer covered in oil and safely? Yeah, well if you come out intact. Uh intact-ish. You know, it like you're better off probably doing yeah, I mean, like doing it after the freezing it after the full step. Yeah, botulism shouldn't grow in the freezer.
+
+[29:33] Yeah you know what I mean? It it should not grow in in the freezer. Um I'm willing to take the you know the experimental loss of you know, a couple giant bluefish, you know, in the in the greater interest of flavor here, because they're just they're so cheap here. They're like two dollars a pound, for really? Yeah.
+
+[29:51] I mean an eight-pound fish. So I really love bluefish. Just grilled anything. I really love bluefish. Blue fish is really delicious.
+
+[29:58] Uh yeah, freezing, nothing should grow. Again, double check everything. Nothing of import should grow in uh in the freezer. Remember that I've never actually put a liquid oil pack in the freezer before. Most times when you age uh oil oil oil canned fish, they're aging for years.
+
+[30:19] You know what I mean? So like uh, you know, a lot of those changes, especially in the canned, you know, hermetically canned stuff, you're talking about years of changes, not you know, days or weeks. Uh you know, and and in comfy when you age it even, it's like you know, like a month or more when you age like a duck confie, which I love that aged duck confie flavor. But um I I yeah, I feel fairly comfortable that if you freeze it, you're gonna be in a safe zone. But I've never I've never frozen a packed product in a liquid fat before.
+
+[30:50] I've only frozen them in a solid pack. Remember when you freeze, freezing actually can accelerate um uh rancidity of of things. Uh because uh the water fraction that's there is more concentrated, and so you can have things go rancid uh pretty hardcore in the f in the freezer uh if there's any oxygen. So you're gonna want to really pack that stuff without any air at all. Mm-hmm.
+
+[31:14] I mean, obviously it's covered in oil, so it's gonna be less of a problem, but you want to get all the air out of the bag. Yeah. And you think just something like canola oil would f freeze it? I mean I've pre I I've frozen you know, like like you said, solid fat pretty well, but it just never you know, it never really comes up of of of freezing. Yeah.
+
+[31:32] Freezing liquid fat. I mean, most of your liquid fats have been winterized, so they're not gonna freeze at all. Do you know what I mean? In the in the freezer. I mean, like they s uh I would guess that canola is completely winterized and won't go solid, although I've never put it in the freezer.
+
+[31:44] I mean, olive oil gets sludgy, right? Yeah. Uh and and also tastes good, but the uh costs more. But the uh yeah, canola, and my guess is that canola will stay. I don't I don't I don't remember what temperature canola starts getting sludgy because it's been a long time since I've like you know tried to I've done cold oil certification of agar with something like grapeseed, but you know, so it's been a long time since I've tested the limits of sludginess of those oils.
+
+[32:14] But they're all winterized, so they shouldn't probably get too solid in the freezer. But it's still it's just the temperature and not and not the consistency that that matters from the food safety standpoint. Yes, that is my guess. All that is my that is my educated guess. Yes.
+
+[32:29] That is the temperature. I have all this I have this duck fat out there too that maybe I can put the fish in there. Without trying to really uh you know, combination of of of species experiments. I don't know, I like that. Remember like there's that famous uh the famous uh Chinese dish called happy family where it's like all different kinds of animals put together.
+
+[32:47] No is Arc with the translation of it. Yeah, well I would I've I'll I'll I'll I I'm gonna start this experiment. I'll report back. Yeah, please do. Let us know how it goes.
+
+[32:55] Thank you so much. All right, thank you. Okay, then bye bye. Orient New York, you ever been there, Stas? You've been out for the tip?
+
+[33:01] Yeah, no, we're not there though. Have you? No. Alright, listen, I'm gonna get through this Vitaprep thing now. All right.
+
+[33:05] Now uh we were talking about Vitapreps versus other blenders. There's two things. There's one, there's ultimate blending ability, right? And other blenders, the uh blend tech, for instance, have you know, very good blending capabilities. And there's another one I saw that's a lot cheaper than a Vitaprep that actually has, I think is is blade interchangeable with the Vitaprep called the Omni Blender, also has a three horsepower motor.
+
+[33:29] Omniblender. Anyway, it has a three horsepower motor and like a really kind of like a good looking blade, actually. In fact, it looks like the blade might be superior to Vitape's. I'm not sure. But uh, and it's a lot cheaper, but when you look at the controls for it, you realize that one of the reasons that cooks love vita preps is not based on, you know, uh making fruit smoothies.
+
+[33:51] It's the control mechanisms of Vitapeps are amazing. Two paddle switches and a knob. Very intuitive, very good for cooks. So any um any rating of professional quality blenders has to take into account what it's like to use them when you're cooking uh, you know, especially when you're cooking heavy duty in a kitchen over long periods and you need it to have a good touch, a good feel. And I think one of the reasons, other than blend blending ability that uh we all love the vita prep so much is the the way that it becomes an extension of your hands.
+
+[34:25] Uh the thing we hate about it is that if you lose the plunger, which cooks invariably lose the freaking plunger, you have to beat on it to get it to blend properly. Although they have new, they have a new picture that apparently is much better in that regard, closer to what the uh blend tech picture is like. Here are some things to test out. Can you blend a pound of bacon into a tomato sauce and have it be silky smooth? Right?
+
+[34:47] That's a good test. Um other things like that. I mean, that what's interesting about the Vitapep isn't that you can make a smoothie with it. What's interesting about it is that you no longer need to use a Tammy when you're making sauces because the Vitaprep can make things that smooth. So those are the things that you want to uh to test.
+
+[35:05] And then if you absolutely need to, you can see whether or not it makes a decent margarita. Right? Yeah. Although I do like myself a frozen margarita. Me too.
+
+[35:14] Stuff tastes taste good. I mean what so you know what the thing is, people like some stuff that you grew up with, yeah, it's day class A, stuff delicious, delicious. You know, it's like I'm I'm sick of people hating on things that are common if they taste good. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
+
+[35:27] Yeah, I'm sick with that. Anyway. Uh Aaron Morin from Edmonton, Canada. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, by the way. Calls in about cooling.
+
+[35:34] Hey all, just had a quick question about supercooling with a circulator. I soon remember Dave briefly touching on the topic using the circulator to speed along the chilling uh process post-cooking. This got me thinking, can I drop my water bath below freezing without destroying my wonderful circulator? I've noticed it goes below freezing, but I'm too scared to drop it down out of fear of destroying my baby. I think of putting uh unopened bottles of water in the bath for an hour or so.
+
+[35:56] Uh, should I put some ice or salt in there as well? I have an old school poly science 7306 model. That's this old stainless uh bottom one, the old uh one that's Daz's favorite. She had her happy face on there. Could I do it with other models?
+
+[36:08] Should I protect the bottles so they're not being knocked around in the icy bath? Thanks in advance. Aaron Marin from Edmonton, Alberta. P.S. Can you answer this on the next show?
+
+[36:15] Because I'm waiting to do this technique on a dinner party on Saturday. Okay, look it. Look at you. Look, I use this technique all the time with uh my circulator. Uh that circulator, uh, if my memory serves me, can go down to about minus 20 Celsius.
+
+[36:29] That's the lowest I've ever taken. I don't know if it goes below that. I meant to test it in the newer plastic one before I came in, but I forgot. I forgot to test it, uh, whether or not that thing can be set below zero. But uh, yeah, so here's what you do.
+
+[36:42] Uh and I do this all the time at events where I want to chill down large batches of cocktails, is one of my favorite cocktail chilling techniques for events because uh it's fairly accurate. You get a big uh tray, uh, you fill it with vodka, uh, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap vodka, and then you throw dry ice into it, and then you set the circulator in on high circulation and you set it to whatever you want your cocktail temperature to be, right? And then you just let it run, and what happens is as the um as the dry ice chills it below your set point, the heater will come on and will heat your the uh vodka back up to the temperature you want it to be, and then as you notice that uh the dry ice is almost gone, you break off a couple more chips of dry ice and you throw it in, and you can keep a very accurate temperature on drinks for hours. And this is my favorite way to do carbonated batch or to hold uh like large batch cocktails for long periods of time. And I've done it many, many, many, many times, and I've never hurt the circulator, not once.
+
+[37:45] You could probably also do it with salt water, be aware that uh you might eventually pit or corrode the 316 stainless uh that is on it with uh large amounts of salt. Uh but salt water bass can be controlled just on a uh on a salt ice basis. Um, you know, you might not need the circulator, you might need the circulator, but you might not need the heating effect. I typically use dry ice. Uh that's the way I do it.
+
+[38:12] Okay. Uh John Riper writes in about peaches. That's Apropos, right? The name Riper Peach is good, right? Yeah.
+
+[38:19] Uh Deer Cooking Issues Peace, Pacific Northwest food goo uh food guru. By the way, you like tongue twisters? No, go ahead and do it. Willie's No, you did it last time, actually. What?
+
+[38:29] I didn't set it, yeah. Uh yeah, anyway. I can't tongue twisters. Pacific Northwest food guru. John Rowley has always preached that getting great peaches.
+
+[38:37] This is John's giving us all preached grape peach. It's a tongue-twisting uh question we got here. Has always preached that getting great peaches means never having to say they've been refrigerated. But I've never heard why chilling picked peaches screws up their final ripening process. Can you explain it?
+
+[38:53] Also, I've heard different opinions about whether the sugar content in peaches goes up after they've been picked. What's the truth? John Riper in Seattle. Uh I don't really know much about John Riley, except I went to his uh website there, and he advocates using crappy white bread with tomato sandwiches so that the bread doesn't get in the way, and I wholeheartedly agree. I think you should use crappy white bread for like really good BLTs.
+
+[39:13] You? Mm-hmm. I freaking love BLTs, man. BLT is so delicious. I think that Martin's white bread is good, yeah.
+
+[39:19] The potato bread? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that's like kind of the c well, okay, okay. What what we mean is soft and gets out of the way fast. Yes.
+
+[39:25] And so Martin's is kind of the epitome of that style of soft and gets away, gets out of any whatever, okay. Uh okay, here it is. So um there is uh an interesting thing about this, and I read so I'm I read uh a bunch of things. Oh, by the way, uh a shout out to At Quantastic on the Twitter, uh AJ at Quantastic, who uh twitter tweeted tweeted me, tweeted to me. What do you say?
+
+[39:53] Oh yeah, she's stuzz. That's that's a curse, his family program. Uh a while back that uh he had some peaches that had what looked like some patrytis on them, the noble rot, and that they were amazingly delicious. I guess after some of the moisture had evaporated out after the patrol anyway, he's he's he really liked them. Uh and I found out that in fact botritis on peaches is an issue and they treat with uh fungicides.
+
+[40:15] I like that word. Fungicide. You like that word, Stuzz? No. Well, you hate, yeah, but anyway, fungic fungicide.
+
+[40:21] Anyway, so uh uh some articles you might want to look at about this whole thing is interactions among cooling fungicide and post-harvest ripening temperature on peaches, 1999, and the influence of cooling and temperature maintenance on the quality of California grown stone fruit, FG Mitchell, 1986. Uh so here's the deal. There's a whole series of things in peaches called chilling injuries. And what happens is peaches are typically, if you want to ripen a peach, you want a peach to ripen at roughly 20 degrees Celsius, right? And peaches will ripen after after they've picked.
+
+[40:53] I'm assuming that they don't ripen the same way uh when they're picked as they would if you let them sit on the tree. But the fact of the matter is if you let them completely ripen until they soften the tree, they can't be shipped at all. They're like one of the most fragile things that exist, right? So um so you can't you can't do it. So you can't commercially do that.
+
+[41:10] I mean, if you have your own tree, you can do it, but you can't commercially do it. So uh the tree, the fruits, once they're picked, they want to be ripened at at 20 degrees C. What's gonna happen is you're gonna get probably an increase in bricks, an increase in total dissolved solids, uh, and you get breakdown of the pectins because the fruit softens, and furthermore, there's probably a reduction in uh total acidity, right? And and and the creation of volatile flavor compounds for the ripening that you wouldn't get if you didn't let it ripen continue. Anyway, the problem is peaches are picked usually at like higher than 20 degrees Celsius because they're being picked out in the middle of an orchard in California when it's piss hot in the summertime, right?
+
+[41:45] Piss hot. And so what you need to do is chill they what commercially, what they do is they try to chill the peaches down very quickly when they get out of the orchard. Now, the and they need to do that because when they're warm and they're being handled and packed, they're much more uh apt to be bruised, destroyed, and the rot and fungus that come in out of the orchards and the different organisms, right? Uh work very rapidly at those high temperatures. So they try to get the temperatures down as quickly as possible, and then if they're going to employ a fungicide or something else, they put it on when they're cooling it.
+
+[42:17] Then after they've packed it and they're in a stable place where they've been packed, then prior to sale, they ripen them out at the higher temperatures, right? Let them go through their let them go through their business. Problem is that peaches, when they're held between at refrigeration temperature from or like four degrees Celsius to like ten degrees Celsius in that range. When they're held there uh for a long period of time, they have what's called a chill injury, such that they never ripen properly. And I tried to look through what causes this, and it's real it's relatively unclear to me what the actual cause is, but it monkey wrenches the ripening process so that it never happens even after the fruit's been warmed up.
+
+[42:55] Now, temporary chilling doesn't seem to have this uh effect. So that storage in the refrigerator for uh like a day or two, once you let it come back up, it might throw off the ripening, it might mess it up, but it's not going to prevent ripening from happening. Now, uh I alright, let me finish this and we'll take the collar. So the uh but the the the interestingly, if you take the peaches all the way down to zero, but don't let them freeze in that very narrow window, like zero to two degrees Celsius, they don't necessarily get those chill injuries. And also if you take your peaches and they do what's called intermittent warming, so they have them in cold storage, and every couple of days they bring the t ramp the temperature up to like uh you know to higher ripening temperature and then cool it back down again.
+
+[43:39] If you do that, you can also stop what's called uh chill injury. But it's a specific, it's a known thing with peaches, and they get what's called a woolly defect where there's almost no flavor, they don't soften right, and they taste kind of woolly and mealy. You like peaches that are woolly and mealy? Oh no, it's the worst, right? Is there anything worse?
+
+[43:55] This is why I always get nectarines instead of peaches, because the peaches we get here in New York, they suck. They suck. And when you touch it and it's kind of soft, and then you're like, this is gonna be good, but it's it never is. Where uh for some reason they do a much better job getting nectarines to us here in the market. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[44:13] Hi, Dave, this is Steven from Indianapolis again. I called about two weeks ago for the neutrophenic question. Oh, yeah. So what was the upshot? What happened?
+
+[44:21] Uh so um it ends up that the hospital has extremely strict rules, and no matter what I give her, I have to microwave it beforehand anyways. So uh, which I think is kind of crap, but uh I mean that's the way it goes. I got the yogurt answer though. Oh, what was it? Um so so uh a pathogen, uh so a pathogen in or a bacteria in your gut is different than a bacteria in your blood.
+
+[44:43] And if uh since we have a line of defense in our blood, which is our uh neutrophils, uh that that uh that bacteria uh will be you know, will the the immune response will take care of it, which she can't do. So I mean uh gut bacteria is not necessarily okay to have in your blood. So if if it can get into the into your blood. So that's the reason I got uh I also had another doctor tell me that they would give their patients yogurt if they could, uh, if the hospital would allow it. So I mean it's it's still kind of uh it seems like a gray area, but but uh that's the that's an answer that I received.
+
+[45:15] So what I what I'm feeling from what I'm feeling from what you're saying is is that hospital policy is super draconian to make sure nothing happens, but the doctor says that's yeah. The only problem with this, I think as we discussed last time, is that it turns out that uh patient outcome is better if they like the food that they're eating. Yeah, definitely. My my mom, uh for instance, my well, my mom is a person that's in the hospital, and she she just won't like she won't eat the hospital food. It's it's crap.
+
+[45:42] So we uh we end up cooking her soups and stuff that are that hold up well with the microwaving and and she eats that uh eats that well. Right. And by the way you're what you're pointing out is something that I think uh cooks a lot of institutional cooks and even cooks in general and you've hit the nail on the head with this is that if you have a set of parameters that are unvarying, right? I have to cook the crap out of this. Then only choose foods that survive that well.
+
+[46:09] Don't try to make things that can't have the crap cooked out of them and still taste good. Like like for instance, like I don't know whether you guys can deal with salt. I don't know what the salt issues are with the diet, but like confid would be great. Okay, yeah, definitely 'cause you can eat the hell out of that and it's fine. Yeah, you can beat the price I can say that on there.
+
+[46:27] No, that's fine, no, it's that's good. But yeah, but you can cook the ever loving, yeah, you can cook you can I mean it's meant to be cooked that way. So people often make the mistake of trying to cook things that can't be um cooked given a certain set of parameters and doing it well and and then serving that. Why? Why?
+
+[46:44] There are plenty of things out there that taste good when they've ha when they've been uh cooked to death, you know? Right. Well and it it seems like a lot of the parameters that are laid out by the hospital are for the average uh so for the average family that you know they're they don't have uh like a a family member that's super into the science behind cooking. So like shellfish is one of the things that they can't have and I believe that that's because of uh what you discussed a while ago and terotoxins that could be present in in uh seafood that's not treated well. Right.
+
+[47:13] Uh or something like that. So so they they pretty much just uh assume that that uh that the patients aren't gonna prepare it as well as they should. Is what I'm assuming. And so yeah, you're right, they're they're very hypersensitive to that. Right, but I mean, but that's the thing.
+
+[47:26] So that's when you have to put on kind of an engineer's mindset. You know, I got plenty of engineers in my family, so it's easy for me to do. You put on the engineer's mindset, you're like, well, let's not think about, you know, we have a set of givens. What are the set of givens? Now, what's the best we can do within that set of givens?
+
+[47:43] You know, rather than wishing that you could make something that you can't make within your set of givens. You know what I'm saying? And I think it's real it's actually very good practice for cooking in general because um every at every moment in your life, I guess no matter what you're doing, but I think mainly about the kitchen, you always have a you know, a set of limitations that you have to deal with and your ability to do the best possible job with the limitations you have determine how good you are as a cook. You know what I mean? Definitely.
+
+[48:16] I I completely agree. Uh I know you don't have a lot of time, so do you mind if I ask you the question real quick? Sure. But I I came on the air to to ask you another question. Uh so so I I was curious about the transglutaminates and the uh and the noodles that Wiley Dufrain makes.
+
+[48:31] Uh you said that he he does like transg transglutaminates and gelatin noodles. Yep. Uh I noticed when I was looking through uh the types of transglutaminates to get, because I know you do like Tiva RM most of the time. Uh w which has the casein, I believe, right? Yep.
+
+[48:45] Okay. Um one of them has gelatin in it. And I was curious if it did not crosslink or it did not solidify because the concentration of gelatin was so low that they're not actually interacting that well. Well, there's two at least last time I checked, there were two different trans transglutaminase is meat glue, by the way, for those that don't know what we're talking about. It's what you know bonds proteins together covalently, actually.
+
+[49:09] There's two different and and the enzyme is transglutaminase, and typically there's a helper protein in it that uh that is used kind of to bridge the gaps between what would otherwise be two pieces of meat that on a molecular level are fairly far apart. Okay. So uh in the one that's most commonly used by chefs is called Activa RM, and it's transglutaminase mixed with casein, milk protein. There are two, or were at least last time I checked, two different transglutaminases that had gelatin as a component. There was GB, which stands for greatest bond, and that's been around for a long time.
+
+[49:42] And a lot of the reason that uh you know Nils and I never recommended using that one is because it it kind of s sets up tachy pretty quickly and it's hard to reposition. So and we didn't necessarily need that huge bond strength that comes from the GB. The because it does cross link. The other one that we used, uh, and so I don't know anyone that keeps GB around. The other one is called GS, and GS is one that has gelatin in it that also has phosphates in it that's designed to sit on the counter as a slurry because the enzyme doesn't work until it's been painted on the meat, because the phosphates in it keep it uh too alkaline for the enzymes to work properly.
+
+[50:20] So, yeah, they will crosslink, but what you want, I don't know what the specific gelatin characteristics are of the ones that are in G B and GS. Uh Wiley's recipe, he says you can use RM, but I'm almost a hundred percent sure that he uses Activa Ti, which is just activa and uh maltodextrin with no helper protein in it. And the reason why is uh we've had failure of his recipe when we use RM because you actually don't want the gelatin bonding to anything but itself. Okay? So if there's casein protein, if there's casein in there uh or other proteins that the stuff's bonding to when you're making these uh these kind of vegetable-based gel gelatin noodles, uh we ended up not getting the awesome gelatin cross-linking because a lot of the gelatin was cross-linking to other things.
+
+[51:08] At least that's our theory. So we always had much better results with that his gelatin recipe when you uh use TI. So what he would do is he would hydrate the gelat, he would make this puree, very low moisture content pureees. He would then hydrate r you know regular gelatin, I don't know what he used, like nox or equivalent, nox is fairly high bloom strength. Uh, and then uh make the slurry, let that cool down a little bit, add the TI to that, and then make mix the whole thing together, spread it and let it set.
+
+[51:37] And that's you know, really what he's looking for is the cross-linking of gelatin there. Am I answering the question or no? No, you you're completely answering the question. Uh I won more one more part to it. I'm sure you're running out of time.
+
+[51:48] But uh do has you ever done time-based studies of uh like have you ever done time-based uh uh translutaminase reactions with with uh gelatin to see like the relative rates of cross-linkage to see like if it the melting point just uh increases over time or or is that I'm sure it does because ultimate strength increases over time, so you get like 75% of your bond strength in the first four hours. Um however you get a lot more if you let it sit overnight. And so I'm pretty sure Wiley does his. Yeah, right. And it's the same with a lot of hydrocolloids, actually.
+
+[52:25] Gel strength changes uh and it's not the same, but in hydrocolloids as well, gel strength changes over time, which is why uh they you know they make the um the pimento strips uh in the center of olives are made from alginate, and uh they age those for a day because their gel strength changes dramatically, and the whether or not they're gonna snap changes dramatically uh after they've been aged for a day. So a lot of these polymerization reactions have the majority of the thing happens fairly quickly, but then there are continued changes uh for a long period of time afterwards. Okay, um and and just just uh one more question. Is there any way that like maybe next time or whatever you could talk about like good articles and stuff to talk about uh like food polymerization reactions and relative like what I'm curious about is hydration rates to see uh how the gel is affected by different hydration uh hydration, you know. On gelatin in particular?
+
+[53:19] Uh I'm I'm I I'm actually interested in hydrocolors in general. Yeah, I'll come up with some good references uh and some that are like partially, and then we'll we'll give them a shout-out uh or uh or I'll tweet them out uh during the week or something like that. We'll give them a shout-out next week. If you can remember to send in the question about it um to like the email, then it'll it'll help us not forget. Perfect, I'll do that.
+
+[53:39] Thanks a lot. Cool, thank you. Uh Jason Bazant writes in uh pronounces you would Van Zant. So I guess Bizant. Bizant pronounces you would Van Zant.
+
+[53:47] I like that. Now I'm thinking of the E Street band. Okay. Jason Bazant uh writes in about high notes and cooking potatoes. Uh I'm your biggest fan.
+
+[53:53] I think I can make a good case for this assertion. More later. For now, I've heard you talk about the high notes and base notes, etc. when talking about flavor and various preparations. I love this analogy as I'm a musician, but I'm yet to fully appreciate what this means when it comes to putting a dish together.
+
+[54:05] Are you able to outline the origins of this type of thinking? I imagine it's ultimately a matter of balancing across the whole spectrum, acid, bitter, sweet, sour, etc. It sounds like it's more applicable to beverages than say dishes, but I'm not sure. I'm a savory guy when it comes to cooking. Can you talk about this, please?
+
+[54:20] Uh and second, I'll just mention both things and then we'll go into them. This way they I have to answer them both, right? Uh my wife cubed a bunch of potatoes and cooked it in the microwave with water until tender and then let it completely cool, much to my chagrin prior to mashing. Her idea was to make mash for our 18-month-old son. Now I know how to make a mashed potato.
+
+[54:39] Face punchably, so I guess he's punching himself in the face as his wife is doing this. I noticed her mashing the cold potato with a fork into a total gloop, hoping for a good result. I pointed out to her some starch basics. Bad idea. But it also obviously it's a bad idea.
+
+[54:56] When someone is doing something horrible in the kitchen, like unless you are literally their boss, it's like really a bad idea to tell them what they're doing is horrifying. You know what I'm saying? Because you can't hide it. You can't hide it. The look on your face of horror cannot be hid.
+
+[55:09] And then they asked. The worst is when you buy the food and take it to somebody's house and ruin it. Oh you know, here's the worst, because you hate it, you know how to do it. And then they look at you and they can tell that you want to kill you don't want to kill your wife. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[55:22] They can tell that you're upset. You know what I mean? And then they ask you, what's wrong? And you can't lie and say nothing's wrong because you're looking at them and like everything that you feel as a person says that what they're doing is horribly destructive to the quality of the food. That otherwise was cared for quite well until it reached their hands and was destroyed, right?
+
+[55:41] But it turns out that when you do that to your spouse, bad things happen. I know this is why my wife won't cook with me ever. She says I'm an a-hole in the in the kitchen. That her words. Uh, anyway.
+
+[55:51] So I pointed out there some starch basics, and she threw up her hands and said, You fix it then, and promptly went to bed. All I wanted to do was throw it out. But then I thought, I'll ask Dave. Obviously, this glooped-out mash deserves to be thrown away, but can you think of any reasonable culinary application for such a ridiculous preparation? Alright, we'll go in reverse.
+
+[56:08] By the way, can I go a little bit late today, guys? No. He doesn't hear you. No, alright, I gotta write this up. Okay.
+
+[56:15] Unfortunately. Alright, okay. So the uh so we'll we'll go in reverse. So the potatoes as mashed potatoes are pretty much ruined, right? They're done.
+
+[56:24] But uh you can mix them into things like croquettes if you're if you're frying things out, or we were just talking about it. Martin's potato bread. Potato bread is a good use for old uh old mashed potatoes, right, Stas? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I wouldn't do gnocchi, and gnocchi, I want I would want it fresh.
+
+[56:38] Wouldn't you want a fresh yonkee? But potato bread you could probably get away with. But here's another interesting point that you might wanna think about. Nils Norrin, uh, you know, uh used worked with for years at the French culinary, who's a monster cook. He used to make uh a mashed potato, like a glue on purpose.
+
+[56:53] And it's part of this whole thing that McGee talks about, I talk about, Nils talks about. If you push something that is a defect so far in the defect direction, sometimes it comes around to being good again. So he would overcook potatoes, then add extra liquid to them, if you can imagine this, then blend them in a vita prep to shatter all the starch granules and turn it into kind of a pasty glue, and then flavor it. And the idea was to accentuate that uh potato puree with that kind of interesting, kind of gluey texture, not try to have it be mashed potatoes at all. And I gotta say it's pretty good.
+
+[57:26] Now, your starch is probably retrograded somewhat, especially if it's old, so it's not going to maybe work the same way, but you could try just pushing the glue all the way, reheat the hell out of it, add extra liquid to turn it into a glue, or use it in the uh use it, use it that other way. Now, as to the high notes, um I'm getting I'm getting the high sign. I'm gonna have uh listen. Listen, I'm gonna answer this uh first thing on the next uh on the next program. I'm also gonna answer Jacob's question about burr grinders uh and coffee.
+
+[57:56] I'm gonna answer David's question about muffin style mixing, and I'm gonna talk to Dandy about recreating recipes from the Applebee's appetizer uh menu. Anyway, next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[58:32] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live from Alberta's Pizzeria in the back of. Yeah, and Bushwick, Brooklyn. Brooklyn! How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:41] Join as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Got a full crew today. We got uh Pedro here is new, sh uh filming the program today. We is Jack still over there or is he did he high tail it out? Nope, I'm here.
+
+[0:51] Hi, Jack, Joe, saw Eddie in the back of full uh full crew, right? Full crew. Full crew. Calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[1:01] Uh cooking questions, non-cooking questions, whatever. Right, Sus? You have a lot of questions. Yeah, I do. But before I do that, we have a theory in uh from at uh Leapers500 on Twitter.
+
+[1:14] A theory about uh Nastash's hate of everything. Wow. Yeah, right? And and by the way, uh I just have to warn you, uh, Leapers. I can't believe he's the 500th Leaper.
+
+[1:26] Is that possible? Anyway. I just have to warn you that you are about to start uh some sort of evil feud with Nastasha, not necessarily something you want to do, but the theory is she hates everything because secretly she wants the wonder of her universal hatred to keep people asking her what she likes. Nah. I think he's giving that way too much thought.
+
+[1:49] That's weird. Wow. Wow. Alright. So Nastasia hated that.
+
+[1:55] Alright, very good, very good. Alright. Uh I'm on uh last week's questions first, thanks. Well, we've got a special greeting too. We should probably do that.
+
+[2:04] Oh, that's right. That's right. Hold on. We well, you want let's do that right after the comment. You want to do it at the top?
+
+[2:09] Yeah. Alright, hold on a second. We don't know we don't know uh what uh which one though, right? No, we don't. All right.
+
+[2:17] A very special happy birthday to John Ripper out in Seattle. Happy birthday, brother. Uh thanks for listening to the show and contributing so many uh interesting questions, right? Yeah, we got a chance to meet him and his wife when they came up. You were in Senegal, but they were lovely and brought us all some nice little gifts.
+
+[2:38] I like gifts. Gifts are good. I'd say they're uh our our favorite listeners. Yeah, really? Uh for me.
+
+[2:44] Speak for myself here. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like I try try not to play favorites with our loyal loyal listeners. Uh okay, we have some questions from last week are gonna hit. Uh Jacob wrote in about burr grinders.
+
+[2:55] Hey, hope you're still the man to forward this on to. Uh the rest of the crew. I don't know who you've mailed it to. Was that Jack? Maybe.
+
+[3:01] Uh I'm looking for a good burr grinder at home, but we're talking about coffee people. Uh I make mostly pour over. Pour over is a horrible they need to think like I guess drip's also a bad word, but pour over sounds like comb over, doesn't it, Stuz? Like pour over coffee, comb over coffee. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[3:16] Uh but I make main mainly pour over and espresso. I was looking at the Breville BCG 800 XL Smart Grinder. What is your take? I'm hoping to find something that makes effing good coffee. Uh it's all bleeped out because he says, I know you're a family uh trying to make this a family show from Jacob.
+
+[3:33] Okay. Okay, so look, just so you guys know my take on this. Uh so everyone, not everyone, a lot of people they spend a lot of money on their espresso machine, right? I mean, it's just something people do. They spend a lot of money on their espresso machine.
+
+[3:44] And they always then don't well, not always, often don't spend enough money on the grinder. And it turns out that the grinder, in terms of the quality of your coffee, is almost an equal partner to your espresso machine. So if you don't get an espresso machine, I mean a grinder rather that's up to snuff for your espresso machine, then hey, what's the point? You know what I'm saying? Now, uh back when I bought my grinder, which was many, many, many, many, many moons ago, uh, I I got the Rancillo Rocky, which at the time was the best um option for you know semi-serious home folks.
+
+[4:23] Cost $350, and my wife made something akin to Nastasha's vegan face when she found out that I had purchased it. Because it seemed like a lot at the time. Um that does a good job. It's a flat grinder, right? It's it's okay.
+
+[4:37] And now, twelve years later, uh, I think twelve, maybe a couple more years later that I've had it, you know, it needs new set of burrs now, probably, uh, or needs sharpening. Uh the but a couple years after I got mine, everyone said, you know what, the one to get is the Mazer Mini, right? Now the Mazer Mini is functionally an es uh professional espresso grinder. You could find it, you know, if you it's small for an professional setup, but it functions in the same fashion as a full-size professional espresso grinder. It's 575 bucks.
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+[5:09] All right. Now it's really freaking expensive. It's 575 bucks. But the great thing about the Mazer Mini for Espresso is uh that it's got a very fine grind adjustment. It's got nice conical burrs that are fairly large, aren't going to warm up your coffee, fairly repeatable, and that is kind of the the standard by which all home possible uh grinders for espresso are rated.
+
+[5:29] Now, I'm not such a big I I don't really think too much about uh grind quality for uh pour over, but in essence, the problem you're gonna have is that you're gonna be doing a lot of adjusting between pour over and uh and not pour over. I mean, I leave mine tuned close to what I want for espresso and my Rocky, and then I never touch it. And then well, it's not true. I like whenever I'm doing a shot, I'll adjust it up or down based on how the shots are pouring today, which is I believe a lot, not just to do with the beans, but also the relative humidity anyway. Uh but but you know, it kind of wants to stay close to being dialed in.
+
+[6:08] It I don't like to move it around a lot. Now, you might want to consider getting an inexpensive grinder for your pour over and a really expensive one, or if you can afford it, a more expensive one for your um for your espresso. I've also heard good things about the La San Marco uh lower end professional one. I had one that was out of whack that I picked up used. I never got it to work right, so I don't want to really want to talk about it because I don't really want to talk about it.
+
+[6:32] Now, as to the one you're asking me about, the uh Breville BCG 800XL smart grinder, um I've never used it uh ever. Uh I went and looked at it. It's a lot cheaper than the Rocky, which is the one that I have, or it's a 150 bucks cheaper. It's 199 bucks, apparently. Uh I looked at a coffee geek, which, although they haven't had a lot of uh recent postings as far as I can tell, was the website that I used to go to all the time when I was in the coffee um purchasing and coffee thinking mode, more of a coffee thinking and purchasing mode.
+
+[7:03] And their gripe about it is that it's well, they say it's a good grinder, but they say that the uh the adjustment on it for the grind adjustment is not fine enough to really perfectly dial in an espresso shot. That's the gripe. And I heard that gripe from a couple of people who seemed relatively knowledgeable about what was going on. Not that it's a bad quality grinder, but just that the grind adjustment wasn't fine enough. And I don't know if that's something that can be hacked or tweaked.
+
+[7:27] But if it so, in other words, consistent, which is important, but not adjustable enough. So that's that's uh that's what it is. That what do you think? Good job. Enough?
+
+[7:37] Yeah, okay. Okay, I never tell whether I can whether I've said enough or too little or too much. Okay. David writes in about the muffin style. I like that.
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+[7:44] That should be a new dance. You're gonna make that dance up, Sus? Muffin style? No? No.
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+[7:48] Ragamuffin, you're not gonna do some sort of muffin dance? No? All right. Uh hey cooking issues. In the muffin method, sugar is treated as a wet ingredient.
+
+[7:56] I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves are readily in water. I want you people to think about muffins, and I'm gonna take this collar. Collar, you're on the air. Hi. Um, my name is Latima.
+
+[8:11] I was just I recently started eating only egg whites because I heard it was healthier. Is that true? I don't believe so. Who told you that? I've read it.
+
+[8:22] That there is more cholesterol and fat in the yolk. That's true. More protein in the white. That's true. But do you have high cholesterol?
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+[8:32] I don't think so, no. Uh but I don't want to have high cholesterol either. Yeah, well, you know, you so you look, you make you you make your own cholesterol. It here's the egg yolks are one of nature's miracles. They're amazing.
+
+[8:48] Like they taste delicious. I think you have to agree that when you eat only the egg white, that it does not taste anywhere near as delicious as when the egg yolk is in it. And I also don't think that the products that you make with it are going to be as satisfying, meaning you're probably going to have to eat more of it. Now I can see you know if you have um if you need for some reason just a whole boatload of uh protein for some reason that I can't understand. Then yeah I guess you could go with egg whites but the fact of the matter is there's not that many calories in a whole egg.
+
+[9:23] So it depends on how much I mean and there is there is quite a bit of uh you know fats, cholesterol, phospholipids, things like that. But you know a lot of that I I think is is good stuff. I mean it's supposed to be nourishing. It grows a chicken. You know so I think that you're much better off if you're really worried about the caloric intake just eating slightly less and enjoying the taste of real whole eggs in an omelet or scrambled format or any anything like that.
+
+[9:48] I mean there's plenty of places where I use egg whites like when I make angel cakes which I think are delicious although Staz disagrees that me she doesn't like aged food cake. But um you see but what what do you disagree with me or no? I think egg yolks are are really good but um the protein in egg is like super natural protein or something and like the protein that you get in meat or fish or whatever else isn't as good the quality of the protein isn't as good as the protein in the egg. Right. I mean I have to I have it's been a long time since I've looked up theoretical um completeness of proteins across the board but I mean egg egg is you know nature's miracle kind of f food.
+
+[10:32] You could grow a whole chicken from it. I'm I'm not a firm believer in I mean, like I say, there are proteins that are deficient. So for instance, you know, if you eat only uh, you know, certain grains, the proteins in them can be deficient and they need to be made up in other ways because they don't contain um the right balance of amino acids. But I don't know that the quality of protein from an egg is going to be fundamentally different in terms of what your body does with it from one in meat. It is a you know a a very uh high source of protein.
+
+[11:01] But like I said, most of us have most of us get mu much more protein than we need in this country, right? So you don't you have you have no need for an extremely concentrated protein source unless you're a bodybuilder, which I don't know, maybe you're a bodybuilder. Uh but you know the the my firm belief is that you should uh eat the f eat foods in the way that make them taste good, that that's gonna make you sated faster. You're not gonna necessarily eat as much or or be driven to eat as much if you just focus on trying to make products that you know that taste good. An egg is a nutritional marvel, you know, I uh uh with yolk or or not.
+
+[11:43] I mean, think about from a cooking standpoint, the yolks are a miracle because they have all sorts of emulsification properties aside from the fact that they're delicious. Um I would I would say that inlet that unless you have a specific need to get rid of uh the egg yolks, that you should keep on using them because they're delicious. So what am I losing by not eating the yolk? In in terms of taste? And in terms of nutritional value.
+
+[12:14] I'd have to look it up. I mean, there's I'd have to look up what's what's in it. Like what uh I'm sure that there's some sort of uh like awesome list of you know vitamins and minerals and whatnot that are in the yolk. I I don't I don't normally keep that stuff uh like rolling in the front of my head because I'm much more concerned with the yolk as a functional unit in cooking. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[12:29] Yeah. But in other words, my my f my feeling is that you know uh the chicken doesn't grow from the white alone. The chicken grows from the egg yolk and egg white. I mean the egg white is also a miracle because it's got like interesting an antibacterial properties. It's one of the only um it's one of the only things that we eat that uh comes naturally alkaline, you know, basic in nature as opposed to acidic, because uh so it's got me it's got some really interesting properties.
+
+[13:05] Um but you know, I would never uh you know, I would never break them I would never eat an egg white only omelet, for instance. Ever understood. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
+
+[13:19] Um all right. So what were we talking about? We were talking about uh Muffins. Muffins. Muffins.
+
+[13:25] In the muffin method, sugar is treated as a wet ingredient. I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves readily in water, but what's the actual benefit of doing that? Would there be any difference in the final product if I treated my sugar as a dry ingredient instead of a wet ingredient? Thanks from David. That's interesting.
+
+[13:42] I mean, um I I d I don't I don't know. I mean it's one of the reasons like as you say to put it in there is that it dissolves uh readily, whereas all of the things that are in the dry ingredient list aren't really soluble in the liquid. But I don't really know if there would be any difference in the final product if you do one way or the other. I doubt that you would hinder the hydration of um of your product too much. Perhaps if you used uh perhaps the sugar wouldn't dissolve as readily if there was other things competing and swelling with water, and so you actually want the sugar dissolved more.
+
+[14:21] But I think it might be six of one, half a dozen of the other. I I you know, I've never I've never really thought about it. They I would try it. I would make two batches of muffins and see whether they come out any differently. I mean, the the that method doesn't uh use any, for instance, whipping power of granulated sugar.
+
+[14:40] It's not like creaming or any of these other things where you're using the power of the sugar uh as an actual aerating agent. So I don't really think it would make that much of a difference. But I could be wrong. Maybe the sugar won't dissolve if you do it that way because it doesn't have enough setting time for it to dissolve out, and your flour won't hydrate the same way, and the whole thing will be a big massive crud with little sugar specks in it, maybe. I don't know.
+
+[15:02] What do you think, Stuzz? You ever you ever messed with uh the way you don't make muffins, do you? No. You're a muffin hater? You like muffins.
+
+[15:08] No, I just don't bake. Don't have time to bake. Don't have time to bake. Your whole life you've never had time to bake? I used to.
+
+[15:13] All right, so five years ago. Hey, it's my anniversary with you. Really? Okay. Yeah.
+
+[15:19] Well, what's that little secret? I you don't care. I didn't say that. Yeah, you did. No, you didn't.
+
+[15:23] You said you don't care. I saw you, so I listened to it. Four years. Oh, four years? All right.
+
+[15:28] So just so you know, uh, she says that working with a cooking guy has stopped her from having the time to bake. Right? Is that what you're fundamentally saying? Who is the one at work who will never step into the kitchen and actually do cooking work with us? Whenever I cook anything for lunch, you're like, what is that?
+
+[15:48] Uh she's talking about the last year where she brings in leftovers and like heats it up. I'm talking about like all the years at the French culinary where we're like, oh my god, we have all this stuff to do in the kitchen. She's like, Nope. Nope. And now she's saying that she doesn't have time to cook now that she was.
+
+[16:02] At home. Oh, I see. I see. All right. Dandy calls in from St.
+
+[16:07] Louis regarding Applebee's. Or as he puts it, crapplebees. You like that? Oh, that's what I used to call it. Yeah?
+
+[16:13] Yeah. I think a lot of people used to get it. I mean, it's kind of a sad, it's kind of like, I won't get into it, but like, can you believe that they named it chain restaurant Fudruckers? I mean, it's kind of a strange one. Anyway.
+
+[16:23] Uh, Dave Hammer et al. I've been asked to recreate an appetizer sampler platter. That's okay that's a tongue twister. Appetizer sampler platter based on the menu at Applebee's. The party hosts always think the food sounds good, but when it stinks, as it always does, they say they've been crapple bead.
+
+[16:38] I listen, this is not my opinions, by the way. This is Dan D from St. Louis, Missouri, talking here. Not not my opinion. I have not ever been to an Applebee's, so I can't.
+
+[16:46] Never? Never. Wow. Yeah. Uh after looking at the menu, uh, and they have propose they give a link to it, you can just go to Applebee's.com if you're interested in looking at their appetizer menu.
+
+[16:56] I decided to make Wontan tacos with Adobo style chicken. Uh presumably not like Filipino adoba, whatever. Uh, fried fish, uh, uh fried fresh mozzarella, and pretzels with beer cheese dip. That would be good. Pretzels with beer cheese dip.
+
+[17:12] I mean, I don't really do you like soft pretzels, Stas? Yeah? I like soft pretzels. I I do. Although I'm uh more of a hard pretzel aficionado, but I do like a good soft pretzel.
+
+[17:22] Uh I bought some sodium citrate from modernistpantry.com and used this recipe, HTTP W W D W Chow.com recipes, blah blah blah, perfectly melting cheese. Uh it's on chow. Uh setting aside the combination of cups, grams, and ounces in the recipe. It was far too thick for a portable cheese sauce. Should I just decrease the amount of cheese slash increase the liquid or the amount of sodium citrate?
+
+[17:44] Also, any suggestions for frying fresh fresh mozzarella? My thought was to do a standard double dip kind of fry and test the mozzarella at room temperature straight out of the fridge, but I wonder if I'm overlooking something. Love the show and I hate wraps as well, Dan D. Well, uh much as I don't know if I can co-sign on uh the um on the recreation of the Applebee's menu. The what what I would say on the sodium citrate on the cheese thing is is you have to assess the sodium citrate is going to increase the meltability and the flowability and the and the granularity of it.
+
+[18:18] So it's it's a melting salt that's gonna allow the casein to become smooth. So if your product is smooth, right, but just too thick, then I would add a liquid. If it's smooth as silk, but just too uh but but um sorry. If it's smooth as silk but too thick, add liquid. If it's clumpy or has some problem with uh texture other than actual viscosity, then you're having a problem with your uh emulsifying salt.
+
+[18:47] That makes sense, S. Yeah. Uh now on the mozzarella, whenever I make mozzarella, I do uh flour coat first in case to pick up any extra moisture, double dip, and then I fry it extremely cold so that I get a crust forming before the cheese starts melting out. Uh I have never tried any sort of much higher tech uh thing like dusting it in methyl cell or anything like that. Uh but you know, you lose what?
+
+[19:13] Like one in ten mozzarella steaks, one in fifteen mozzarella steaks when you fry them out. Another interesting thing you can fry is they make a uh, if you want to go a little off menu, there is um in South America, well, in in in in what is it, Middle East, I guess, they make something called Halumi, which is a uh um a grillable cheese, halumi good cheese, is I think it says on the package. And in uh in Latin America, they make something called queso para frier that you can fry. And that stuff, you can literally deep fry that sucker without a coating on it. It doesn't melt out, and it's delicious, except when it cools down, it gets squeaky like you're chewing on styrofoam.
+
+[19:49] So you gotta eat that sucker hot out of the fryer or hot off the grill. But I highly recommend trying queso uh queso pata fruit or halloumi. Uh it's really good with a little oil drizzled over the top, salt, pepper, grilled or fried. But back on your mozzarella, just coat that sucker like a demon, have it be cold, fry it till it's crisp, uh, and then if you need to, uh, you know, you can throw it in an oven to melt out the inside a little more. The problem with most frying setups is that that they batter the mozzarella around.
+
+[20:17] You want to be really gentle with it and not do a lot of manipulation because if you break the crust at any point, you're gonna get a leaker, and then you're toasted, right stuff? I hate don't you hate leaking mozzarella steaks? Do you like mozzarella sticks? Marinara sauce? Do you like fried uh kamari?
+
+[20:33] What was the way that idiot pronounced calamari that time? You don't want to anyway. Uh yeah, that's uh anyway, there you go. Connor Kerrigan writes in cooking issues. Have you ever made stock from freeze-dried protein?
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+[20:44] A la uh David Chang's mind of a chef. Can I easily find freeze-dried products? Yes, you can find freeze-dried products, but no, I have never made stock from freeze-dried stuff. Uh, I looked a little bit into it. I haven't spoken to Dave about this personally.
+
+[20:57] Uh I mean, I would I don't know the advantage of a freeze-dried stock uh product, except for the relative speed of extraction. In other words, I don't know what would go on in the freeze drying of it that would actually increase the uh ultimate total flavor extraction you could get from it. So I need to talk to him and see see what it is. But no, I've never tried. That was an easy one to answer, right?
+
+[21:14] Answer's no. Boom. Okay. Uh wait, shall we take what time is it? You want to take a break?
+
+[21:22] Let's go to our first commercial break, cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats.
+
+[22:36] Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surrefarms.com. And welcome back to cooking Issues. We have a caller.
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+[22:59] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how you doing? All right. This is uh Christian from Michigan. Got a uh question for you.
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+[23:07] Two well, actually two questions, seemingly unrelated. Um have you ever used the aero press as a means of being uh clarifier? So uh how you use the um cheesecloth. Uh could you use an aeropress to do the clarification? Okay, so uh what we're talking about, AeroPress is the uh relatively inexpensive coffee maker that uses a moderate amount of pressure.
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+[23:30] It looks like a giant modified syringe. Um accurate so far. And so when you're saying when you're saying clarification, I generally don't do uh I don't clarify via filtration. I use cheesecloth for only for um uh holding back solids in something let's say like an agar raft or in a gelatin raft. And most of that when you're doing it, you're not it's not the the pressure that's holding you back, it's the uh ultimate kind of leak rate you can get out of the raft, and when you increase the pressure too much, you actually can start forcing product through your filter medium.
+
+[24:11] What I actually use in those situations to increase the pressure just the right amount without causing uh problems, squeeze through or clogging, is I use a salad spinner. So I'll put stuff in like a in like a super bag or in like like a fine uh like uh like a linen napkin, and I'll tie the neck off like a sack, throw it in a salad spinner, and just spin it a bunch. And that and that works. Oh, that's pretty awesome. And then I'll free up the the mesh by picking it up and just rubbing gently the cloth together against itself to free the pores out and then spinning it again.
+
+[24:42] And you very rarely get any agar bleed through when you do that. Oh, okay. That's uh that's a much easier idea. I don't drink coffee, so I don't have an aeropress. Ah, there you go.
+
+[24:52] Well, save your save yourself the purchase. Although they do work well. Uh I I used to bring all sorts of complicated stuff, but now when I travel, I usually bring the aeropress with me just because it's easy to carry. Cool. Um so the second question is have you ever uh done a DIY project for making a uh like a deep freeze unit?
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+[25:11] Like how deep freeze. Like so taking like a commercial blower unit and making your own kind of uh I'm just looking to do like a rapid freeze unit without spending like four grand on a on a true commercial uh uh freezer unit to get meat down to temperature quickly. I hear my thoughts uh on that. So you're talking about prepared meats or pre or pre pre cooking or post-cooking? Uh pre-cooking.
+
+[25:40] In bags? So yep. Okay. I would definitely do this. Well uh uh ans to answer your question first.
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+[25:47] Uh I have not I've often thought about installing just like fan units inside my normal freezer to try and increase the rate of freezing a little bit because the air is stagnant in there and the freeze rates are abysmal. The problem is as opposed to a commercial blast freezer, I mean you wouldn't want a fan going in there all the time because it's gonna accelerate the drying effects that you're gonna have in there, right? But um commercial blast freezer not only has like a large amount of air circulation, large amount, but it also has a uh a huge cooling uh, you know, a huge cooling output to to match it. So, you know, your freezer is not pr is not freezing at its fastest possible rate because it doesn't have air circulation or very much air circulation, but there is a still a maximum rate at which your freezer can freeze because of the actual amount of cooling power that's being applied to the freezing box. And so that's the part that's kind of hard to get around, is the fact that it's only ever going to put a certain number of uh watts of cooling per hour into your product.
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+[26:51] You know what I'm saying? Or pull out of it. What I would do is put your product in zippies, ice and salt is very fast and can freeze down to you know, minus, I forget what it is off the top of my head, but something like minus 17 or something like that. You know, it can freeze ice cream rock solid. And so you can do a very rapid uh freezing in a concentrated salt water brine, and then and you could possibly even store that brine in your freezer.
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+[27:24] Like if you had a freezer you were going to dedicate to this, you could possibly store a saturated salt brine in the in the freezer, tune the freezer so it just wants to stay where it is, and then you're storing a boatload of energy in the partially crystallized ice and then the salt water brine, and that sucker would freeze your stuff very, very quickly. Yeah, so then that so then that salt water brine would bring down the ambient temperature in the freezer compartment as well, then too. Well, so what you would do is is you would use the you would you would use the freezer over time to to slowly add the energy, right, to make your to make your brine uh and then it would not fully freeze until it got well you uh you'd have to do some calculations on the tectic freezing point to get it to work just right. But the what you really want to do is store a bunch of ice at a temperature below freezing, have the freezer slowly input that energy over time such that when you throw your meat in bags into the brine, it can very rapidly uh cool it, right? And then you have the rest of the time to keep storing that energy again.
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+[28:29] Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense? Yeah, that's pretty cool. Sweet. Well, thanks for your help as usual.
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+[28:35] All right, well, good luck and uh let us know what happens. Sounds good, have a good one. All right, cool. Uh all right. Uh Colin writes in about popsicles in Britain.
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+[28:44] He says the Brits haven't heard from Colin in a while. Uh the Brits invented a curious concoction called the Jelly Babies Wobbly Lolly. Another tongue twister. Jelly jelly babies wobbly lolly. And by the way, he adds it's a popsicle or ice lolly.
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+[28:59] Uh they call them ice lollies, I guess, in in in UK. That's an absurd word. Yeah. Ice lolly. Would you ever say ice lolly, Pedro?
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+[29:07] I'd say ice lolly. Ice lolly? Maybe in reference like uh music video or something. Music oh, yeah. Well, there you go.
+
+[29:14] Uh it's an ice lolly that gets floppy when it melts thanks to guar and xanthan. Although uh I have to say in advance, reading the rest of this, I don't think it's well, we'll talk about it. You can look at it uh on this YouTube thing, which is going to be incomprehensible to you, but if it uh we'll we'll we'll get it out there on the on the web somehow. Uh you can imagine that there are many more, and what if you look at it, it's a little kid with uh uh like what amounts to some sort of fugical thing that wobbles around like uh like uh what are those things called that you make out of jello, the knox blocks, they call them jigglers, right? So it's kind of like a mix between a fudgecle and a jiggler, and he's sitting there wobbling it back and forth.
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+[29:49] But Colin, of course, points out what is probably obvious to you that you. You can imagine there are many more semi-obscene videos featuring young women eating these pops. Uh I will leave it at that. Here are the ingredients for lime flavor in honor of the limeys that created them. Water, sugar, fruit juice concentrate, 25%, straw uh strawberry and lime.
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+[30:10] Stabilizers, Xanthan gum, guar gum, hydrolyzed pea protein and salt, natural flavoring, acidity regulator, citric acid, and color, spinach extract. Spinach extract, chlorous chlorophyll. Stas put the vegan face on for that one. Does the hydrolyzed protein play a role in the wobble? I've seen it used as a protein supplement or to boost flavor via glutamic acid, but does it have a texture modifying properties as well?
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+[30:33] If you were to take a stab at a recipe to recreate these popsicles, what gum concentrations would you start with? Finally, uh have you made any other curiously textured frozen treats besides your world famous potato mox selept on derma? May the wobble be with you, Colin. First of all, uh yeah, the other one I've done also is sell-up ripoff, is a mixture of guar and uh gel an, low acyl gel an that sucker also has a snap to it. I really like, and that one you can light on fire, which is awesome, and it doesn't melt because you make a fluid gel from the uh gel-an, and so it doesn't melt down.
+
+[31:06] And that tons of chefs have made uh gel-an fluid gel ice creams. It's like, you know, meh, meh, I'm gonna make a fluid gel ice cream, man, meh, it's like a let it on fire, meh. But when you add the guar, that's when you get the weird textural properties, guar and gel-an, which I I still have only studied in frozen form. I don't really know why it works. We did it by accident, it happens.
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+[31:24] Anyway, what's going on here is it's not actually the Xanthan guar that's causing that. Xanthan LBG, which is a close relative of guar, will form a weird uh gel. But uh, as far as I know, Xanthan guar does not have that same synergism. What you're looking at here uh is actually, I believe, a synergism between guar gum and the hydrolyzed pea protein. Hydrolyzed pea protein is a pea pro is a protein that's used because it has relatively neutral flavor, it's relatively inexpensive, and can be subbed in for things that might otherwise have like kind of a nasty flavor or people might not want for like soy protein or other protein isolates, or like milk protein or dairy protein isolates.
+
+[32:04] So uh turns out I looked up on the interwebs, and uh there is a uh uh someone named Tamara uh Ranadhira had in uh year 2000 her master's thesis in uh Manitoba was enhanced gelation of field pea proteins through formation of multi-component systems using various polysaccharides, and guess which one had the most wobbly it's pea protein and ding ding ding guar. So it's the guar and the pea protein together that are doing what we need to do in this situation. I don't the xanthan's probably just there um I guess to add some more body. I don't know whether it's there from a stabilizing standpoint because I couldn't find really fast what the uh freeze thaw uh characteristics were of this. But and also the one thing I don't know is how how melt in your mouth these systems are.
+
+[32:53] But uh what you're looking at there is a pea protein guar thing, which I believe has to be heated for it to work before it's frozen, but I I don't know because I couldn't find out. But they these protein these pops, I'm surprised uh they weren't advertised as protein pops because most of the pea protein things that I've looked at were in the high range, like 10% or a little more protein. Uh so anyway, if anyone else has any information on these pea protein popsicles, pea protein popsicles. We have alliteration all day today. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[33:22] Uh give us a holler. Okay. Uh Patrick Chicone writes in on hey, you're a Italian pronounce that Chicone, right? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[33:29] Hey, look, I got something right. Uh, on uh muscles in mollusks. Dear cooking issues gangs. Thank you for your answer about preserving bluefish last week. I'll report back the results.
+
+[33:39] It got me to rereading the fish chapter in Harold McGee. Always a good idea, by the way, to reread any chapter in one of Harold McGee's books. I'm gonna see him soon. We're doing the Harvard lecture together. And uh a little bit of secret, it's not a secret.
+
+[33:51] You know, I think all of you know uh who have been following the Mofad and the Puffing Gun that we like the puffing gun. Well, we at Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation have purchased our own mini puffing gun so that we can do uh we can now do commercial puffing experiments. Although the Chinese one complete, you know, it's whatever, it just comes completely unsafe. There are no, when I say unsafe, there are no safeties in it. So like our puffing gun, even though it was designed in the museum's puffing gun, even though it was designed in the 40s, 39 actually, and made, you know, in the 50s, still has like all kinds of safety valves on it so that you don't die.
+
+[34:27] This sucker comes and it comes at stops. What'd that box look like? Terrible. It was like all beaten to hell, right? Like the stuff falling out, literally stuff falling out of it, like all crazy.
+
+[34:37] And they just expect you to like want this thing together and uh put it up to 180 PSI and then hit it with a big old stick with no protections at all and no safety. So we haven't fired it yet because we're busy constructing big massive safety cages and like blow-off valves and stuff like that. I don't even know why I was thinking that. Oh, because I'm hoping to take that to Harvard so that McGee and I can fire that for the Harvard class at the beginning of uh uh the school year. Anyway, we'll let you know.
+
+[35:01] Okay. Um, that was just because he said McGee. See what happens? See what kind of tangents I go on? Uh I noticed that in the shellfish section, McGee says it's possible to cook the catch muscles of shellfish, i.e., those knobby muscles left on the shell of a clam or oyster, and not typically eaten since they are so tough.
+
+[35:18] This is on page 224 of the 2004 edition in the subsession Tender Quick Tough Catch. So uh I could not I'll I'll tell you what it says there, also paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me. I could not find any references to cooking the catch muscles anywhere else besides McGee. I was wondering if cooking via prolonged low temperature method might transform them into something delicious. I know you always warn against fish turning into mush with this message method, but it's uh but this muscle seems unlike anything else in the fish world, at least in terms of toughness.
+
+[35:46] I'm always disappointed when I throw away what looks like a tiny scallop attached to the shell, and I'm now imagining this muscle transformed into something with real flavor and texture, a scallop with the flavor of a clam, for example. Also, congrats to the Mofad puffer launch. I'm sorry I missed the gun. I don't know if the museum is looking for a brick and mortar space anytime soon, but I have some ideas, so we should uh have Peter contact him. Anyway.
+
+[36:07] So, I reread it, uh, and in fact, it's quite interesting. Um, whenever you take, let's say, uh muscle or anything apart, there's always that little tough part attached to the shell. You know what we're talking about? Or when you shuck a clam, it's always that right. And so the adductor muscle, which is the main muscle in bivalves, i.e., two valves, i.e., two shells.
+
+[36:27] Um, the main muscle, the adductor, is broken up into a couple of different types. One is meant for quick closing, right? And that's the one that we normally eat. And scallops are really good at that because they flap their shells open and shoot themselves across the bottom of the ocean. So they have big, fast uh, you know, adductor muscles.
+
+[36:46] And then a portion of the adductor muscle is designed to do what's called catch. And what that is, is like when you walk up to a clam and you're like, oh yo, clam, and you try to open it, and it goes and closes, and then you can't pry that sucker open, and even though it's been sitting there for like hours or days, you can't pry it open. That is because of the specialized muscles that are called catch muscles. And they're extremely interesting and they're tough. And so McGee does in fact say that you can uh uh through long and slow cooking tenderize it.
+
+[37:17] And I haven't tested this and I couldn't find a lot of reference to it over the web, but it's worth trying. But I did do some more research on that. And it turns out that there's a lot of scientific study on catch muscles in uh in bivalves, mollusks, and other arthropods, because um they they they are able to maintain their rigidity, their contraction, even though they don't use a lot of energy for a long, long time. And so it turns out that there is uh a giant protein. So we have giant proteins in our muscles, they're called Titan, but with an I, not T I T A N T I T I N Titan, that is forms kind of a part of the elasticity of our muscle, and it's the actually the largest protein known.
+
+[38:00] And there's a there's a related protein in uh molluscs called um called twitching, believe it or not, and that protein, the state of that protein allows the muscle to lock shut without uh expending any extra energy over very, very long periods of time. And it's unique, kind of it's from invertebrate muscles, and it was just figured out in 1997. In fact, if you go on Wikipedia and you look up myosin, it still's it still says that uh that these muscles have their catch response based on um on paramyosin, which is an invertebrate-only myosin uh type, which is not true, it's just twitching stuff. I the article you might want to read, and I don't know if I have a link to it on my page to tell you uh on my uh paper here to tell you about, but go Google it, and because here's what's interesting. I can't figure out any references to how to disable that just by cooking, because it's not a standard kind of collagen breakdown problem.
+
+[38:57] But I gotta look at it. So it's very interesting, and when I see McGee, I'm gonna ask him more about it. Uh and sorry I didn't have a full answer, right? Anyway, so I was like, I don't really care. I don't care.
+
+[39:07] Uh Alex writes in oh, by the way, I have a couple of questions on induction. So I'm gonna I'm gonna combine them. All right. C wrote in about induction and Alex wrote in about induction. Um I'll do I'll do C's first.
+
+[39:21] Uh hey Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. Great show. After I discovered modernist cuisine at home, I found your show have been blasting through the archives. Been a home brewer for about five years, and chemistry of beer got me very interested in food. I converted my brew system, DIY style, to all electric a couple years ago and have not looked back.
+
+[39:37] I, you know, I stopped brewing eight years ago. Last time I brewed was uh just before Dax was born. Anyway, uh my second son. To all uh electrical beers haven't looked back. After learning about low temp cooking in Sous Vide in Modernist Cuisine, I built my first immersion circulator with spare parts I had laying around the brew house.
+
+[39:54] It worked great, but I wanted something insulated with a cover that was a little larger. Um I built my second immersion circulator for an arts fest party at Penn State where I live, Penn State Kitty Lions. I knew I'd never been there. I've always wanted to go to their dairy program over there. Here it's really good.
+
+[40:08] You ever been to Penn State? No. That's where my uh grandfather went. Yeah. Uh where I uh I retrofitted one of those Igloo Max Cold 150 quart coolers with a 5,500 watt water heater element and a Renko temp controller and backpack 30 pounds of ribs, each rack individually, of course, and cooked them at 143 Fahrenheit for 48 hours, then finished them on a really hot Weber charcoal grill with wood chips.
+
+[40:29] They were delicious, and I did indeed look like a rock star. I recently tossed out the Fry Daddy I bought in college. Good move. Fry Daddy, good starter. Not a good I mean, look, I'm not no insult to the Fried Daddy Corporation.
+
+[40:40] Not enough power in a Fry Daddy and inapply named. It should be called like, you know, Fry Junior or like Fry Baby. Fried baby. It should be called Fried Baby. It's very small.
+
+[40:50] It's in no way the daddy of deep friars. Uh I recently tossed out my Fry Daddy that I bought in college. I'm intrigued by your French fry process. My French fry process is a pain in in the butt. It like involves like enzymatic treatment, then blanching, then some drying, depending on what the size of the fry is, then freezing, then twice frying.
+
+[41:07] Anyway. Um I'm intrigued by your French fry process and want to also become the monk of the fryer whatever you call it. You've touched on induction cooktops uh cooktops in a couple of episodes. I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now.
+
+[41:24] Uh all right, so wait, I'm being told that I'm gonna take a caller and then come back and answer this question about induction. Sure. Do you say there's color? Yeah. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[41:33] Hey Dave, it's Brian uh in San Francisco. How are you doing? Doing well. Good. Good, good.
+
+[41:38] Um question. So over the weekend, I tried to make some um banana pudding. The flavors were delicious, but I you know, the recipe uh I used called for some cornstarch. Right. Um it ended up tasting a little bit, I guess, gritty.
+
+[41:55] Um all the the recipes I've seen for, you know, vanilla pudding or butterscotch pudding or banana, uh, a lot of them seem to call for um some kind of uh of starch mixed in. Um so you know, I made a a slurry before I I I mixed it in, and um there were no lumps, but it didn't have the kind of same smoothness that I really wanted. And one thing that I saw was that after you kind of finish and after it's sets, if you s continue to stir it too much, then that might uh cause some some grittiness. So I'm wondering a should I continue using um for my puddings of starch uh but like like corn starch or or tapioca starch or something? Um or what's uh what's a better method?
+
+[42:47] Huh. Well, you know, I don't do uh a lot of um I don't do a lot of puddings, but all the ones that I have done are with the cornstarch. I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna do, Stas. See if you can get Piper to call in and because he's worked on all those pudding stuff. What?
+
+[43:05] Oh, well, Piper's not around. Uh uh, I'll tell you what, I'll research, I'll research some pudding stuff for you, and we'll get back to you uh next week. Can you tweet it into me so I can drop it into my inbox for next week? I'll I'll tweet it into you reminding you about the puddings. All right, because I don't feel that I don't feel comfortable enough to answer you on uh puddings right off the top of my head.
+
+[43:23] I'm gonna look up some uh data on grittiness in it. But I all the ones I've made typically I do I do the old fashioned cornstarchy ones. So I'll I'll I'll look into it. Also tweet me the recipe that you used if you have it so we can uh troubleshoot that and I'll read it to you. Right, and send you the link.
+
+[43:40] Piper's my pudding man. Thanks so much. No problem. We'll get to it next week. Thanks so much.
+
+[43:44] Okay, back to induction. Uh I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now. The infomercial new wave one can be had for fifty dollars. Have you seen this infomercial?
+
+[43:57] New Wave is an oven that they make some sort of what I think I could tell from their advertising is a uh is a kind of a home impingement oven, like a like a fast air impingement oven. But they also make something called a PIC precision induction cooktop. But I you know, I I'm dubious of any of the of the infomercial stuff. Unless it's a Billy Mays product. God bless Billy May rest in peace, right?
+
+[44:19] You know I love Billy Mays. That's like his voice. I would buy anything. It's like it's like, you know, it's like Billy Mays. I would buy from him, I'd buy, you know, pretty much whatever Snoop Dogg tries to sell except for those awful malt liquor beverages that he repped.
+
+[44:30] Okay. Um the new infomercial new wave one can be had for like $50. Since you can supposedly control the temperature rather accurately with these things, could it supplant a dedicated fryer for the home kitchen? Is it no? Is it powerful enough to keep a decent volume of oil at 375?
+
+[44:46] Or is it just another piece of uh TV infomercial junk? Uh I don't know. I don't never used it. I don't know whether it's high quality. It does appear to have a bunch of nice functionality, but uh any attempt to use it well, we'll get into this.
+
+[44:59] Okay. Alternatively, can you recommend a model that you think would work for this application? Forgive me if you've already answered this question. Thanks. Keep up the good work, and I'll be visiting both Roberters and Booker and Dax next time I'm in the city.
+
+[45:09] Uh and another question on induction in from Alex. Great show, thanks for doing it. I was looking into getting started in induction cooking, but there seems to be a fair amount of incomplete or misinformation out there on the internet. I even noticed that modernist cuisine.com recommends a Max Burton model, but has a picture of a Mr. Induction at the top of the page.
+
+[45:27] I am confused. What kind of power size features will I want? As long as you're throwing out recommendations, is there any brand of pots and pans you particularly like on induction burners and burners? Is that the right word? Cooktops.
+
+[45:37] They don't know. Oh, by the way, in England, going back to the Ice Lolly folks, uh, they call them a hobs, but I don't know anyone in the U.S. that calls their burner a hob. Do you? Nope.
+
+[45:46] Would you like to be would does that sound gross to you, Hobb? Kind of. Yeah? Yeah, Stas doesn't like Hob. I would just keep calling it a burner, but if you're from the UK, you can call it an induction hub.
+
+[45:55] Like Thomas Hobbes? Well, no, no, one B. H O B like corn on the Hob. Okay. Corn on the Hob.
+
+[46:01] Yeah. Like throw the corn on the cob in the pan. That's on the hob. On the hob. Yeah.
+
+[46:06] Yeah, like that. Uh okay. Uh I will save my questions about the differences between a CVAP and a combi oven for another day. Thanks, Alex. Yes, because we will run out of time before I can get to that.
+
+[46:15] Uh although I guess we will. Anyway, whatever. Okay, so look. On all of your induction questions. First, uh Max Burton.
+
+[46:23] Interesting thing about the Max Burton. There is a I I own one. I haven't started using it yet. All of those kind of small induction things are, my guess, relatively the same. Meaning they all have relatively the same power output.
+
+[46:38] I think they're roughly 1,500 watts, 15 to 1800 watts. But you can't use a straight wattage output. And the reason that's why they are is because in the U.S. everything is designed to be run comfortably off of a 15 amp uh 120 volt uh wall socket. And so most companies are very loath to, on a consistent basis, pull more than about 1,500 watts out of the wall.
+
+[47:04] A little more. Uh you know, anything more than that, and you're gonna get into a commercial unit that uses 220 volts. And then you could start putting bigger wires in, and you're gonna have a much thicker cord, and then you can start pulling more wattage out. So if you were gonna get an induction range in your house to supplant having a regular gas or electric range, that's gonna have a much bigger uh set of wires going to it. And you can get a lot more power to it.
+
+[47:27] Now, you cannot equate you cannot equate the wattage directly to the wattage of an electric heater because it is boatloads more efficient, just tons more efficient. And so it's very hard. And you can't really equate it to gas because it's a lot more efficient than gas. Now, the a very, very high output home, sorry, a very, very high output commercial gas burner will boil faster than one of these Mr. Burton things.
+
+[47:56] But the average even semi pro home gas burner will not boil uh water as quickly as uh a decent home induction unit. And that's really the method, that's really what you want to test. How fast is it going to put heat into into my product? The other great thing about induction, and I've said this many times, that I love, is that it's not going to heat up your whole kitchen because it's only heating the pan. That said, you need to have pans that uh work well with the induction.
+
+[48:22] Uh and most pans you can tell whether they've worked well within the with induction. You know one second when you put it down or not whether it's going to work. But you know, a lot of new modern pans can work with induction, but you should check to make sure. I don't have any particular one that I love or don't love, but I will tell you this. The thing that sucks about cooking with induction is that whenever you put a pan down on an induction burner, the induction burner sits there and tries to figure out what's being put on it.
+
+[48:48] And it and so at first it makes this weird noise while it's trying to cycle through, figuring out what the exact uh kind of frequency it wants to hit your pan with to get the maximum uh you know heating out of it. And by the way, for those of you that are looking up heating, uh we so induction heating in general uh can be done on any metal, right? Because you're dealing with what's called I squared R loss, which is literally just like the power of resistance or heating it, but with an induction cooking on uh cooking, you're not just doing that. You're using what's called the hysteresis loss of ferromagnetic materials to uh to increase uh the effect of uh the induction thing going. So that's why it's really only pans that have that are special for induction that will work.
+
+[49:28] Whereas if you look up induction furnaces, you can easily do things like melt aluminum with them. So that's the that's the deal. But the the special effect of induction only works up till what's called the curie point of the metal. And that's why, for instance, I can't make or have not been able to make an induction version of my red hot poker yet, because the induction heating elements that you get will not heat things up to those levels. Just a little aside in case anyone gives a crap.
+
+[49:52] Now, uh back to induction heating. So the irritating thing about induction is is that it's constantly scanning for a pan, and if it doesn't find the pan, it goes ape on you. And so instead of just keeping the power there, it cycles off and on and gives you little weird error messages. So whenever you lift the pan to do a saute, it makes a little weird noises, and it's I uh it's irritating to get used to. Have you noticed that, Sas?
+
+[50:12] No. I haven't. You've never lifted the pan while you were cooking on it? You cook on induction every day? Oh, that thing, yeah.
+
+[50:18] Yeah, I don't like it. No. It also doesn't have very good feedback, but it's fantastic, especially in in pastry kitchens, and they're getting they're getting better and better. As for your Max Burton, the interesting thing about the Max Burton one is if you find these people on the webs called openschemes.com, they have ripped apart hacked and described the circuit of that particular Max Burton model, and it is particularly easy to tweak. Now don't, because it's dangerous.
+
+[50:42] I don't want to hear that you electrocuted yourself because Dave Arnold told you to tweak it. I want you to go read Open Scheme's website and blame them if you electrocute yourself. But I will say that they give uh detailed explanations of how to dork with that circuit. And so I have plenty of projects out there where I really want to mess with induction. And so if I'm going to do that, I'm going to do it with that Max Burton one.
+
+[51:04] But you have to get a very specific Max Burton one. Okay. Back to the question of frying on induction. Here's the issue. Temperature control is not the name of the game in frying.
+
+[51:14] It is temperature recovery. So what you need is not something that is going to, you know, keep a very accurate but high temperature, but one that as soon as the temperature drops just hits the oil with full force power until it gets back up and even maybe slightly above where you want to go. That's the hallmark of a good fryer, and that's why uh PID control is not a good way to control a fryer. Now, maybe these folks have figured out some awesome way to um to like program a fry cycle into their thing whereby it knows it's a fryer, so it goes into bang bang, i.e., off on control like a fryer does, and just hits the oil like a ton of bricks with full power as soon as it drops below their temperature. But I don't know.
+
+[51:57] You know, they're not they can't possibly be doing it the job that I want because they're measuring it through the pan through the oil, instead of measuring the oil, which is what I want you to do, they're measuring the temperature of the pan through the top of the heating element, which is not very fast. So they're not going to get very fast uh response time. So I'm guessing that they're not gonna be super uh aggressive with the oil, which is what you want. The other problem with cooking on a stovetop, and I've said this and I'll keep saying it: stovetop frying is never ever gonna be as good as commercial tube uh like a tube fryer frying because you don't have a cold zone. Whenever you are heating from the bottom, particles are falling off of your food, sinking to the bottom of the pan and scorching at the bottom and ruining the oil.
+
+[52:43] And also when you're heating from the bottom, you don't have a ton of surface area in contact with the oil, and so you have a lot of local overheating of the oil, and it's problematic. You really want if you really want to do frying right, you want to get yourself a tube fryer. And I've been uh and what happens there, the tubes have a huge surface area, and also there's what's called a cold zone underneath it. And I've been uh it's so that your particles fall through the hot zone into the cold zone and don't scorch out. And I've been no one makes a small one or a home one.
+
+[53:11] I don't really know why. I don't know why. Anyway. Uh hope that answers your question. We I looks like are we we out of time or we're good?
+
+[53:18] We have two minutes. We have two minutes. All right. Alex writes in Dear Cooking Issues team, thanks for your help on the pressure cooker question I sent a couple of weeks ago. I recently came across an article online that suggested dry salting poultry instead of brining it.
+
+[53:28] Obviously, you would lose the benefit of drawing more water into the meat, but really isn't it kind of equivalent to watering down your meat? Is dry salting an alternative? If so, how much salt should be used for giving weight of meat, poultry, and fish. Any ideas about how long it would take would also be much appreciated. Thanks, Alex.
+
+[53:42] Alright, look. I like look, here here's the deal. If you're gonna brine your meat, the reason to brine your meat is because you're gonna take the meat above the temperature, which is gonna start losing moisture, right? That's why we do it. One, two, to get salt into the meat.
+
+[53:55] Now, if you're not gonna overcook the meat, you don't necessarily need to add a lot of water to it. However, you will be drawing water out of it by salting it because the if you're doing a dry salting, you will pull liquid out and then the liquid will s will fall down, right? Whereas if you brine you know away from your product, unless it's brine, you know, bat bagged in there. If you're brining it, it will take up a little bit of extra water, but usually if you're gonna overcook your product, you're gonna lose too much water anyway. That's one of the reasons you brined, because the stuff wasn't moist enough when you can't when you were done with it, so you needed it to pick up that extra moisture.
+
+[54:25] Now, if you're not gonna overcook it, then sure, you're salting it just for flavor. But uh I you know I don't have a problem when I do a light brine for if it's a light brine for flavor. When you're brining a fish, you're also brining a fish because okay brining for flavor. There's brining for uh it be and brining for flavor you can do by salting on the outside. The problem with salting on the outside is it tends to be relatively concentrated on the outside.
+
+[54:49] So unless you wipe it off and then let it equilibrate for a long time you're gonna get an overly salty outside and under salted inside whereas the brine lets you be a little more gentle in your salt contact. Just saying and if you've ever tasted your brine that you've thrown your chicken into or your turkey afterwards, you know what it tastes like? Like salt water with a little bit of blood in it. You're not s like sucking a lot of flavor out of your product so your only real gripe is the water that you're putting into it right. So sure if you're flavoring if you're brining for flavor, sure dry salt it a little bit and then uh you know wipe it off let it equilibrate for a little while so it's not too salty on the outside and maybe you're gonna be in luck, right?
+
+[55:23] Or maybe not. Maybe it may be too salty on the outside. If you're brining because you're worried you're gonna overcook it, then you want to add the extra moisture to it as well as get the salt in there because the salted proteins hold on to moisture better than the unsalted ones do. Okay. So there it's i I mean whatever.
+
+[55:41] If you're gonna overcook it you want to add the moisture period. The third reason to brine something out on something like fish is because if you cook fish that hasn't been brined especially with low temperature you get too much of that white protein crap bubbling out of the fish and it spoils the appearance of the surface and a light brining will take care of that for you and stop that from happening. And sure you can do that by just salting the outside. If you're doing it just for flavor, I don't really have any ratios. I just go like this you're you you'd be if you were looking at me, you'd be seeing my hand sprinkling salt over.
+
+[56:09] I sprinkle a good coating of salt all around it and then let it sit, but I've never really measured it. You stuzz? No. Anyway, uh hope that helps. See you next week.
+
+[56:17] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[56:48] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:34] We're back from a two-week hiat. It's really uh unfortunate hiat. We didn't really mean to have it that way, right? I was in Austria one day. And then Harvard.
+
+[0:40] And then Harvard and Austria, I couldn't uh I couldn't call in because we were actually shooting uh whatever the thing I was I was in Austria for EC, the people that make the whipped cream makers. I was doing some rapid infusion stuff over there. And uh the whole crew was uh over in uh Harvard last week. We'll talk about that in a minute. Today, join as usual.
+
+[0:59] Nastash of the hammer little bit. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah. Just have uh, you know, Joe's holding down the fort in the booth over there.
+
+[1:04] How are you doing, Joe? Where's Jack? It's a little lonely. Yeah, I know it's like where's Jack? It's Jack, no love for us today, huh?
+
+[1:09] Yeah, yeah, I guess not. Uh he's just gone missing. I haven't seen him all day. Is he out like apple picking or something? At least very autumn yet.
+
+[1:15] It's night, it's apple picking weather right now. I don't know if the apples are ready yet, but it's apple picking weather. Certainly is. Speaking of, I hear this year's gonna be a good harvest for apples, so uh look for uh look for me to start screaming about how much I love certain apple varieties that they come in. Ash Meats kernel, my favorite.
+
+[1:31] Remember the Ash Meats Kernel drink? So good. We're gonna if I can get a good supply of uh Ash Mead's kernel from uh tell you what. After I locate my supply of Ash Meats Colonel and buy everything I'll need, I'll tell everyone else where they can go get the Ash Mead's kernel, because you know, we're allowed to hold a little bit back for ourselves, am I right? Yeah.
+
+[1:46] That's true. Yeah. Joe, what have you been up to? Anything good? No, I've uh, you know, I'm kind of like a very summer person, so I'm kind of just like mourning the loss of my favorite season.
+
+[1:57] Oh, really? Yeah, but I guess it will be nice to like go apple picking and stuff. Oh, yeah. That'll be great. Yeah, plus I hate the sun.
+
+[2:03] Ooh, I hate it. Oh, it's my enemy. Oh, I hate it so much. Without it, I kind of like turn into a a raisin, which would you think would be the opposite. Yeah.
+
+[2:10] Yeah. I just go from uh pasty to lobster and back and back and forth. It's my two speeds, pasty and lobster. So, uh calling questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[2:22] Oh, by the way, Stud, you want to tell them what happened in the Harvard? No, you. What? You you you have a good spin on it. I do?
+
+[2:28] Yes. Alright, so I think here's what happened. So, like uh every year for the past uh I think three years, I've been going up to uh Harvard, they have this like uh what's it what do you call it? Science and cooking, something like this? Yeah.
+
+[2:38] Science cooking. And uh do the first lecture with uh Harold McGee and kind of kick off this kind of science, you know, science cooking, you know, thing of a jig because they figure you know, most of the chefs are gonna bring in are gonna do actual chef demonstrations, and they get, you know, Harold and I doing some demo and some yapping to kind of kick it off and to start with the science aspect of it. Right? Right, okay. So this year Harold's like, hey Dave, why don't you he doesn't talk with this?
+
+[3:03] He's like, hey Dave, why don't you bring the puffing gun up and we'll, you know, we'll use the puffing gun. I was like, well, you know, Harold, the puffing gun is 3200 pounds. Uh well, okay well, okay. So some uh torches got packed. Well, what did that this people don't want to know?
+
+[3:17] This okay, so we're packing the car. First of all, first things first, bought a miniature puffing gun, which I think I might have talked about on the show. I'm not sure. We bought the same one that was used on the Mythbusters program. You can get it from Chinese Popcorn Cannon.com, I believe is what's called a Chinese Popcorn Gun.com.
+
+[3:33] I don't recommend you purchase this item unless you are well versed in adding safety gear because it comes with no safeties at all. Uh as we become apparent. So anyway, so we uh so Piper and I from you know Booker and Dax, we we built a huge safety cage for it so it's safe. We added some over pressure release valve so that we couldn't get, it wouldn't explode, and if it did, nothing bad would happen, etc. etc.
+
+[3:53] Lay out all this safety nonsense, and then we load this thing, which is only a couple hundred pound pounds really, in into uh my my Subaru route back. We drive it up to Harvard, but as we load this stuff in, we put a bunch of torches in, and we forgot to switch the torches into the full off position safety note for you guys. So all of a sudden we're about to pull out of the parking lot, we hear and then we we're like, what the I'm like, stop, stop! We start smelling the propane because the torches were on, right? Yeah.
+
+[4:21] So, and you know, Piper and Nastasha are like, you know, this is by the way, this is just boating ill for the whole trip, is what's happening now. So Piper opens the uh opens the uh this the you know the the case where we had packed the torches and jokes, which makes me believe he did this on purpose. He's like, heh heh heh. He doesn't talk like that either. What if I flash off this propane right now?
+
+[4:41] Wouldn't that be funny? And then he clicks the button and flashes the propane off. Piper doesn't have much of arm hair anymore. Right? And well, Stas, you enjoyed the ride.
+
+[4:50] You were right next to it, right? Yeah, it was awesome. Sweet, right? So anyway, so I'm like, well, we've had our we've had our our blooper moment, right? So we go up to Harvard, uh, you know, hot and heavy with this, with the well, not well, whatever.
+
+[5:02] We to with this puffing gun, we unload it, we set it up in this, in this now. For those of you that have never been to up to Harvard, they had this thing called the Science Center where everyone does the big science demonstrations, right? And we load it in there and it's a public lecture, so it's you know, it's not students necessarily, it's anyone from the community around Cambridge, Boston can come see it. I think it's free, right? It's free.
+
+[5:22] So they show up, it's you know, pretty full, pretty packed, you know, house, and uh we had fired the gun twice to test it beforehand to make sure that we had all the stuff down. So we go to fire it, and the freaking sealant around the inside of the puffing gun gave way, and the puffing gun started to unspin, which means now here's the thing. When you're a puffing gun relies on the fact that you're volatilizing the uh some of the moisture that's inherent inside of grain. So we start with rice, let's say, around 17% moisture. Uh 15%, I forget what the one we have was fairly high moisture, 17%.
+
+[5:55] We're using the shiki, I think. You start out with a relatively high moisture rice. You put it into uh the puffing gun, a small portion of that moisture is volatilized and used to pressurize the puffing gun. And the rest of the moisture that's in the in the rice is used to uh gelatinize the starch at very high temperatures, right? And then to flash off when you open the gun, expand and puff it.
+
+[6:15] So the moisture has two rolls there. If there's even a small leak in a puffing gun, a small leak, you uh vol like when you volatilize the liquid, it leaves, and then you keep sucking moisture out, and then eventually you don't have enough moisture left to puff or to build pressure, and so you just scorch your product into like tidal scorched pellets. So I notice that the pressure thing is fluctuating, and I'm like, oh no, there's a little leak. I look over, I see the sealant, pipe, and I can see that it's unspinning. So in kind of a last minute attempt to get it to work, I jacked the heat a little bit for a minute, realized I wasn't going to get the pressure up, but here's the problem.
+
+[6:49] You have to vent it anyway because the pressure's gonna keep going up, and you don't want the safety to go off, right? Right. So we knock the thing open, uh, it flies out. We we spray scorched uh we space we you know, Nastasha and I actually sewed a beautiful, we have this thing. If you look at the YouTube videos of these things in action in um in China, everyone fires into what we lovingly call the filthy sock.
+
+[7:11] There's like a filthy sock on the ground that they fire this stuff into that they then you know anyway. So Nastasha and I made our own filthy sock. I think the filthy sock is quite nice. Yeah. I broke my sewing machine on it, and Nastasha broke her sewing machine on it, so it's a two-sewing machine filthy so uh sock problem.
+
+[7:26] So, anyways, so we we little and we fire all these like burnt rice pellets into the filthy sock, and I think it's over, right? Only we set off the damned fire alarms, and the entire building had to be evacuated, and there was a bunch of like science science people in lab coats like sitting there moping, not being able to do their experiments on this on the sidewalk. So, all in all, a freaking nightmare. Right? My favorite was is that uh that it got picked up in in eater, and then the the comment was someone someone put a comment.
+
+[7:58] You didn't miss much. There's a there's a reason this guy's never had a chef's job. Right? That's a sweet comment. You like that?
+
+[8:05] Oh, haters. Anyway, uh so that's what we've been doing for the past week. Uh I'm gonna take some questions. Did I already tell them what number to call into? I did.
+
+[8:12] I don't yeah. 7184972 and tweet. 7184972 and tweet. Let's get some questions because we have a bunch. Gloria Goodwin writes uh Gloria Goodwin, uh uh and I'm gonna mispronounce your name, Gloria.
+
+[8:22] What do you think? Rahija? Reheija? Yeah. Rehea, what do you think?
+
+[8:27] Rahija. Rahija? Rahija. Sorry, I just butchered your name. Um, listen, people people who've written in more than once know that I'm gonna butcher your name, right?
+
+[8:35] So you might as well just give me a little pronunciation guide so that I don't butcher your name, which makes you feel bad and makes me feel stupid. It's a lose-lose situation, right? I hate butchering people's names. Um speaking of butchering names, uh uh Riper, John Riper, who who, by the way, told me how to pronounce his name, in other words, it's not Ripper, it's not repair, whatever, it's riper. Uh, thanks for the peaches, buddy.
+
+[8:57] Peaches were delicious. I ate some peaches. Uh quite tasty. Although I have to say, listen, here's my feeling on peaches. Sorry, Gloria, I'm gonna get to this thing in a second.
+
+[9:05] The the peaches, I am Nastash and I only really agree on one thing in life, right? And that is that the the best peach is actually a nectarine, right? That's that's the kind of the only fundamental thing that we agree on in terms of food. You like nectarines better, yes? Yes, I do.
+
+[9:23] Yeah, okay. But that but that's because we get in general kind of crappy peaches here in New York. You probably get got better ones when you were growing up in SoCal. But anyway. So, uh, but as peaches go, right?
+
+[9:36] So there are people who are adherents. So John sent us some of these donut style white peaches, and then some regular yellow, you know. I don't know the variety actually. Did he incentives variety? I don't know.
+
+[9:45] Anyway. No, there are lots of varieties. He sent me the breakdown. Oh, you but I didn't receive it, so I was just eating blind. Awesome, great.
+
+[9:53] I love that. Anyway, so like the white donut, what white peaches in general are so floral, but they lack the acid backbone. Does anyone know of a peach variety that has that floral characteristic that has the acid backbone to kind of back it up so that it has that kind of awesome peach flavor? What do you I've never had, what do you think? I don't like white peaches very much.
+
+[10:12] Because it's too floral? Yeah. Do you also not like do you know how remember how there's like some dessert varieties of apple that are extremely floral and that we we were having in our in our tastings? I can't forget which one comes to mind, but you know, some of the pearanes and stuff like this. You didn't like those either, right?
+
+[10:27] Not really. Yeah, because you like more of an acid acid kind of yeah. Yeah, Nastasha likes, you know, likes her mouth to be smacked around a little bit by by acid, by acid. I don't want to hear anything, people. Okay.
+
+[10:39] Gloria Goodwin, uh Rahija. On to Keila. Hello. In December of 2011, I made several bottles of this fabulous tequila sauce, and it's uh from a Sevara recipe for tequila hot sauce, uh that was uh posted in 2011. Uh I gave away uh several bottles as gifts and kept one for myself.
+
+[10:55] I used about half of mine, mainly on fish, and it's wonderful. I believe it's from Hill Country the recipe. I think I gotta go look it up. Anyway, uh and it's wonderful. Uh I then forgot about it and uh it got pushed to the back of a cupboard.
+
+[11:06] Do you think that it's still okay to use after all this time? Or would there be any risks? The chilies have lost all of their color now, and the patron silver is quite dark, but I would think that the alcohol would prevent bacterial growth. I just wanted to make sure before I use it, thanks, uh, Gloria Goodwin Rahija, professor of anthropology, which is an awesome job. Anthropology, cool subject.
+
+[11:24] Uh, at the University of Minnesota. Okay, you you are in good shape here. This is totally safe. Now the question is, um, what's gonna happen to the uh taste of it after all this time? And I and I don't know, right?
+
+[11:35] Because the taste is not gonna be a hundred percent stable, but uh you know, you've everything's pretty much at this point what we call reached equilibrium. So it's not that the uh it's not that um you know it's it's it's probably all all all the same, right? So the s some of the color was leap they didn't leech out all of their color. They leached out probably to the degree they're probably equal in color with the patron bottle. You know what I'm trying to say, Stas, right?
+
+[11:55] I don't know, fumbling over, but you know what I'm trying to say. The really only safety risks that you have with this sort of thing aren't with uh aren't with uh liquor like tequila, are with oils, right? So if you were packing an oil thing like this, then it would be uh, you know, fairly unsafe. But if you were gonna do a pepper in an oil situation, you'd have to guarantee the microbial's uh safety of the pepper before you put it into the oil, right? Um, either by increasing the salt content or increasing the acid content through fermentation or whatever.
+
+[12:21] In that situation, you have to be worried about safety. And if you did do something like that for the oil, the then the problem would be that you were um you'd be adding things that would cause the oil to break down faster, salts, acids, things like this. Uh which is why for oils, you usually want to add dry items, or you just don't store them that long, or you remove the high liquid items. Here, the high liquid item is very quickly being uh the liquid in it's being very quickly replaced by uh tequila. And even if you were to add a preposterous amount of chili to the tequila, you're never gonna reduce the alcohol content lower than I mean even if you used over half pepper, right?
+
+[12:58] To tequila, you're still only gonna probably drop the uh the proof down to you know a little above 20, uh 20% rather. And at 20% you're still golden, you know. So you're there's no safety, there's no safety issues at all. Like whether or not it still tastes exactly the way you want, different question, but use it away. And um you should make a note of how things taste.
+
+[13:18] And this is actually something that we do all the time when we make liquors, and it's a good practice whenever you're making liquors or infusions, is to not use the last little bit and save it for a long, long time and kind of see how uh the flavor drifts over time because it can be very interesting and instructive. Yes? Yes. Yes. Although, did I ever tell the story about the radish liquor?
+
+[13:36] No. So you know, I do lots of liquor infusions, this is one thing I do. And I don't know, like five, six years ago, I made a uh a uh I forget whether it was Western radish or daikon. I think it was Dicon, but it was like uh pinkish. It was pinkish, so it must have been regular anyway.
+
+[13:52] Uh I made a radish infusion uh into I think it was gin, and it tasted fantastic, right? Smelled like farts. Like straight up farts. So I was like, well, okay, I'm gonna stick this uh bottle on the shelf and I'm gonna taste it, you know, once a month for the next couple. And I tasted it.
+
+[14:12] I I I I didn't taste it every month after the first couple of months. I let it go, but over the course of like three or four years, I've waited for the fart to go away. Fart never went away. We didn't take that with us when we moved out of the no. Because like it turns out fart in a in a in a radish liquor.
+
+[14:28] Point minute. Okay. So I got two questions on uh fermentation today. I'm gonna hit them both kind of at the same time. Uh you know what we should get Dan Felder from the Momafuku lab because he's like a fermentation nut.
+
+[14:39] The guy spends all of his time thinking about fermentation, right? Uh we maybe if people want it, you tweet us in, maybe we'll try to get him to come in here and we'll have like a specific fermentation related. I think he charges now though. What the hell kind of thing is that to say charges? Charges for what?
+
+[14:57] Charges for his like time. Dave, do you know about the show on on uh on heritage that's called uh foment about it? It's a nice fermentation show and foment about it. Probably my favorite pun of all time. Yeah, has uh Dan Felder been on that one?
+
+[15:12] No, but I will recommend. Yeah, or I can have him here. I know Dan, and I believe that uh my help over the years with centrifuging things could probably get me a freebie of him coming on the cooking issues radio program styles. See, this is a little insight into see that thing where she says I think he charges. That's just her being mean.
+
+[15:28] I know it's that's just the stasha trying to be a vicious person. It's a little insight for you people into what I live with every day. Okay, uh Timothy writes in about uh about tomatoes. Um thanks for explaining what was going on in that Kowloon walled city spring roll rapper video. We saw.
+
+[15:46] Uh we talked about this, I don't know, a couple months ago, probably. This like amazing city that had no rules that was like all built up like in this weird kind of really crazy style, like really, you know, uh it's like a steampunk dream nightmare kind of. Anyway, no rules. I like uh do you like that? Would you like a no rule place?
+
+[16:01] No. No? No. Okay. Uh I found the recipe for those on Joe Pastry uh in uh in his uh article, Chinese Spring Roll Skin Recipe from 2012, and I'm going to give it a shot sometime soon.
+
+[16:11] A more pressing matter, I just started my second batch of hey uh pronounce this Italian head. Oh I'll have to pronounce it, and then she's just gonna laugh at me because uh my computer went crazy. Conserva crudo di Pamidoro. It's good. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:26] See, I learned this when I was in Austria. Uh I I took German in in college, right? And when I went to Austria, they they were like, hey, your your accent, but my German is horrible, but they're like, your accent is is so good. And it's because Arnold Schwarzenegger comes from uh comes from Austria. And so whenever I speak German, I just think about watching Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.
+
+[16:47] So instead of like, you know, so instead of saying like ausgezeichnet like a an American, I'm like Ausgezeichnet, like this, and they're like, ah, your pronunciation is perfect, and then uh and I was like, this is hilarious. It's like I've never been to Austria before. I was like, this is great. So when I do Italian, I just think about Cesare. Just think about Cesare, and then I'm Cesare, our good friend good friend of ours, Cesare Casella.
+
+[17:08] Uh amazing, amazing cook, nice host, too, right? Good, good, good person, good peoples. Uh okay. Uh I made my second batch of this stuff which I won't repronounce, following the instruction in Sandor Katz's uh that he printed in The Art of Fermentation, which I reread almost cover to cover last night. Good book.
+
+[17:21] You read that yet? No. Do you like fermentation? No. No.
+
+[17:24] No kidding. You don't like the you like the products, but you don't like the idea? Yeah? Mm-hmm. Uh okay.
+
+[17:32] Uh I follow uh so I followed the recipe to the letter uh last year, uh adding 20% salt by weight, which was unsurprisingly extremely salty. Uh, what role does a salt prey in preservation? Now remember, 20%. It's not a typo. I looked up the uh I looked up the technique in the book.
+
+[17:44] Uh, and so this is like not a typo that Timothy is sending us. This is actually what they add, 20%. The recipe says the finished paste uh was originally kept indefinitely at room temperature, a level of preservation I don't need. The fridge seems like an uh obvious place for it. I found a post from the Nordic food lab where they used 8% salt for the similar recipe, the same same recipe.
+
+[18:08] In fact, they also got the recipe from uh from the Art of Fermentation where they used 8% salt, but I'm curious if I can go even lower. The limit for how much salt I could use of the original batch was how salty I wanted my dish to be, and I'd love to get away from that, i.e. to use more of it. Keep up the great work, Timothy. Okay, yeah.
+
+[18:24] That is a fantastically high salt uh rate. And the way that this product is made, it's kind of strange, is you pulp tomatoes and you throw them in a bucket, and then you let them with nothing, nothing, and you let them ferment and bubble and let white mold grow on the top. So as I saw a picture of it with the white mold bubbling on top, she's making her her kind of it's like similar to a vegan face. And and you uh and you scoop the mold up off the top when you're done after it's fermenting, uh, and you pass the the liquid solids uh through uh like a you know the equivalent of you want to get the solids out, right? The liquid, uh he doesn't I don't really mention how to use, but the Nordic food lab people they like it, right?
+
+[19:02] So then you have the liquid, which apparently is very fruity and and and awesome smelling according to the Nordic uh food labs um you know description of it. And then you have this solid paste. You then knead salt into that paste until it becomes like a dough. And then that dough uh is like sticks around i i indefinitely, right? So that's the basic thing.
+
+[19:20] But 20% salt, you are basically turning it into a tomato paste salt situation. You are using it as salt, and yes, it will keep probably forever at that uh salt level, but you're right that you're only gonna be able to use a small amount of it, so you're never gonna be able to blast the tomato flavor out because you're adding such a small amount. Um what you know now the Nordic food labs, 8% salt is gonna be fine. I'm sure you could do 4% salt even and be okay because remember the water activity in that's already fairly low. You've gotten rid of most of the liquid, so you're dealing with almost uh you know it's already been um not dehydrated but forcibly had water removed from it, so it has a lower water content, and you're kneading salt into it uh more and you're packing it down.
+
+[20:04] So I would bet you could get away with four uh or you know, possibly even a little bit less. But the remember the thing is by adding salt, any further like the the level of salt that you add is going to change the uh what what bacteria and what other flora are gonna grow on it, right? So the different salt levels shift the speed at which fermentation takes place, any further fermentation past the the saltless in the giant bucket fermentation, and also uh shift the balance of what's gonna be growing on it. In a related question, Marty in Eagle Rock about uh pickled peppers, pickled peppers. Peter and Piper picked.
+
+[20:39] Yeah, so you know, anyway. You know, my my son, that that's not a hard tongue twister to say. Say it for me. Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers. Yeah.
+
+[20:48] How many, how many, how many pickled peppers did Peter Pepper pick? I don't know. A peck, you just told me a peck. You picked a peck. A peck is a half bushel, people.
+
+[20:57] It's a volumetric measurement. Get with your like fruit measurements here. A peck is a half bushel. Okay. Um dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe.
+
+[21:07] Uh, although Jack doesn't care enough about you, Marty, from Eagle Rock, to show up and listen to your question. Uh I'm just messing around. I'm making a lacto fermented pepper sauce using Tybird chilies, and uh recipes on the web suggest everything from 2.5% to 10% salt by weight. I went with 4% as that's the concentration I used for pickle brine. So to three kilograms of chili, I added 120 grams of salt as well as a liter of 4% brine.
+
+[21:30] But I got to thinking that because the chilies don't have much water weight in them, that this matches mash is way more salty than my pickle brine, so I'm afraid I might have screwed myself. I love that when people say stuff like that. I say that all the time. Because it's true most of the time. I have screwed myself.
+
+[21:44] Uh so my questions are what is the optimal salinity for lacto fermentation? How can you best measure it given that the various vegetables have their differing water contents? And how long would you age this stuff? The Maclehenny Company ages their stuff for three years, but I know the fermentation will be over in a couple of weeks. Well, best Marty and Eagle Rock.
+
+[22:01] Well, remember, there's done and then there's done, right? So things that are fundamentally done in a short amount of time still have aging effects that take place over long over longer periods of time. And the Maclehennies, apparently I've never been to uh Avery Island where they make Tabasco, but apparently the whole place reeks of freaking Tabasco. You ever been down there? No.
+
+[22:21] My my wife went uh and because you know she grew up uh part of her life in Louisiana, and she goes there, but like it's so weird, like the Maclehenny's like it's weird. I I'll go someday. Anyway, um, so the it's there is no such thing as the one optimum uh salinity, right? Different products have different um optimal salinities. I did look up this though.
+
+[22:42] Unless the Tybird chilies have fundamentally a lot less water than something like a bell pepper. I looked on cowpeppers.com and cowpeppers.com, which is kind of a good website, cowpepper, cowpepper.com, uh, cowpepper uh com and another uh uh article I looked that say that the solids content of uh pepper is f pretty low. So for 32 tons of uh 32.7 tons of jalapeno only contain 2.6 tons of dry matter, which means that the balance it's well over 90% uh water. Uh now now you could be having a lot of stems because they're Thai bird chilies. If it depends on whether you stemmed them or not, uh the stems are obviously gonna have a lower water content, but you're probably dealing with um something that has a fairly high water content.
+
+[23:29] So I wouldn't worry about it from that point. However, um, you know, you a lot of people will use a four or five percent brine without adding the extra salt to make up for it, and then what they're actually shooting for is like a two and a half percent brine once everything's done. So it's you know it's very confusing. Most recipes just give a brine strength and they don't do the calculations to figure out um what the actual finished salinity is going to be after everything done out. Now I do know that people pickling bell peppers prefer a higher if they're whole, if they're not going to be chopped up, but they they prefer a higher initial uh salt um uh uh level to kill or to prevent um endogenous, in other words, like uh occurring on the pepper already uh strains that they don't want from um proliferating before the fermentation really starts.
+
+[24:17] But you can get rid of that by just a quick blanch, right? And then going with a lower salt situation. But the Thai chilies aren't that big anyway. So I'm thinking you would probably wouldn't need um super high salt concentration, with the exception of if you don't break the skins at all, it's gonna be hard for it to penetrate the skins because the skins on those things can be kind of a pain in the butt sometimes. So yes or no?
+
+[24:36] Yeah. So uh my my I guess the long and short of it is yeah, you you didn't necessarily screw yourself, it's not absurdly high because those are so freaking hot that how much can you really eat anyway, you know, you know it's like you're not gonna be adding that much salt because how many Thai bird chilies can you sit there and just pound. I mean, I used to train myself to eat habaneros uh just to be a jerk until my wife could no longer kiss me when she came home from work because uh uh my lips would burn her mouth, right? So it's not like I'm saying that I can't take hot foods, although I haven't been trained in in it's been several decades since I really trained myself hardcore. Well, a little almost two decades.
+
+[25:09] Um but uh point being is that even in my prime, it's like you can eat uh you can eat Thai bird, you know, the the type, but you know, you're not gonna eat so much that you're gonna be like, man, that's salty. I can't have any more I can't stand it because of the salt. You know what I mean? As opposed to the capsecum. Um but anyway, uh I did also look up some other stuff and to more to your question, what is the optimum uh range?
+
+[25:32] And all the papers I looked at said there is no optimum range. It depends on what you want. So I looked up uh an article you can get on the internet from uh Geneva from Geneva's Agricultural Extension, which I love. I love they've done so many awesome things. Like uh someday, uh maybe we'll do uh well, I won't because we won't do it, but like a whole show on on the history of the Geneva Agricultural Extension and what they've done for um agriculture in the great state of New York.
+
+[25:54] But uh a guy named Carl S. Peterson in 1959 wrote an article aptly titled Sauerkraut. And in uh sauerkraut, you know, they they wanted to get very, very small uh like low, low salt con concentration. So they were they were dealing with between uh uh one and a half uh or or you know, it's not really supposed to have one and a half. Like uh the FDA in uh 1916, when they came out, they wanted uh sauerkraut to be between two percent and three percent uh NACL, right?
+
+[26:25] That was their rule, between 2 and three. Although um they studied in here ones that were lower and ones that were higher. The problem with uh low salt, if you go too low, there's a couple things that are wrong with uh too low. When you go too low, uh things tend to grow that can make vegetables mushy. And so you if you look at it, um you want a certain level of salt that makes things mushy uh that to prevent things from getting mushy, and you can also add things like calcium or you know, divalent the divalent uh cations to help that as well, or use salt that is high in calcium magnesium impurities.
+
+[26:57] Uh but uh you want to add a certain level of salt so that uh you know they don't go mushy on things like sauerkraut, but not so much salt that it's too salty to eat. Uh another article um called kinetic growth parameters of different uh amyloolytic and non-amylolytic lactobacillus strains under various salt and pH conditions by MS Rao said that uh four percent's a good number, all around number. But that's but sauerkraut that would be way too high. Four percent sauerkraut, people would be like, that's not sauerkraut, what are you crazy? What are you nuts?
+
+[27:28] Uh interesting fact. Uh when you're mixing sauerkraut in the old days, there was a phenomenon where they would they would take the kraut, salt it, and throw it into giant vats. And when they threw it into giant vats, somehow the actual compression of this cabbage hitting inside of the vat as it's packing in would cause there to be a low salt concentration in the middle and a high salt concentration on the outside. So in the low salt concentrations where there wasn't enough salt, uh you would get mushy sauerkraut. And when the salt concentration was too high, uh the the growth of the lactobacillus uh strains that they have in um in uh sauerkraut, which I forget what they are, some some Lucono stock thing, I think.
+
+[28:07] Uh they they don't grow fast enough to um outcompete or to cause the uh this yeast, this yeast that makes pink sauerkraut, right? The yeast from growing, it doesn't spoil it, so but you'll get this situation in these giant vats, like several tons of sauerkraut where the center of it's gonna be mushy and the outside's gonna be pink, but the overall salt level was uh right. You ever had pink kraut? No. By mistake.
+
+[28:29] I mean not mean like people make red kraut on purpose. Anyway. Uh so what do you think? Answer the question? Yes.
+
+[28:36] Okay. And you know, go read, you know, San Sandor Katz's book, I love it, but he's like he he's very much in the in the realm of eh, don't worry about it. You know what I mean? Like it's gonna work, just taste it and see how it's going it's going to work. The odds are, you know, if if as long as you are better than you know uh 2% salt, uh, you know, you're gonna be it's gonna be gravy.
+
+[28:56] It's just a question of then what organoleptically what's gonna happen and increase in the salt, slows your fermentation, and uh shifts the uh different species that are gonna be growing on it. Okay. Paul Yee writes in, I hope this is the correct email. It is. I have a lot of leftover food grade lye, sodium hydroxide beads from making pretzels.
+
+[29:14] And I was wondering if I could use these beads somehow to make ramen noodles. I've previously made alkali noodles using the recipe from Lucky Peach, and was thinking that I could substitute the baked soda, i.e. sodium carbonate, baked sodium bicarbonate, uh, with sodium hydroxide beads. I would normally just test this myself, but a lot of sources I've read online say that it is dangerous to consume sodium hydroxide. So I wanted to get a professional opinion.
+
+[29:35] Thanks, love the show, Paul Yee. Well, I have a checkered pass with the lie. Uh here's one I say, uh, I'm assuming you've already done this. Label the hell out of that container. Take label the top of the container, label the side of the container, and draw skull and crossbones all over the the container.
+
+[29:52] Um you know, I don't know whether I haven't talked told this in a long time, but uh there was a situation once where I was moving stuff out of uh the lab at the French culinary when we were moving from the FCI to our new place, and someone said, Hey, what's this? And showed me a quart container, right? And I was like, I don't know. And I dipped my finger in it to taste it, put it on my tongue, which I'll never do again, and it was lye because it was the one container stuff we keep around in the kitchen that is horrifically dangerous, and it melted a huge hole in my tongue, eventually grew back. Um so be careful with it.
+
+[30:27] But used uh I mean you ate it when it's in pretzels, and small amounts of lye are in fact fine to use. You just have to get the pH right. I didn't have time to look up the numbers to substitute uh the um how you know how much how many grams of uh of uh lye to add to get the same pH as you did with uh sodium carbonate. I I will say this. Um they both have the same cations, sodium, so you're not dealing with switching a cation out.
+
+[30:51] So it's not it's probably the the what I'm saying here is it's probably gonna work, right? Um that you know, most of the effects uh I think in um most of the effects in noodles from using can sue and other basic things are I believe strictly pH dependent. It's not uh this and and plus I I gotta remember to look up exactly what's in consway, which which bases are used. But if you're using um a sodium-based thing for a cation anyway, you're not gonna have any divalent uh cation, for instance, calcium effects like you would. Like it's important, it's not important, but there are different effects when you use calcium based um bases like uh like calcium hydroxide, you know, sli you know, li pickling lime, uh, when you're doing things like nixtimalization because the calcium has some effect on uh on certain structures depending on what you're doing.
+
+[31:43] But um but in this case, I think you're gonna be fine. It's just a question of making sure that you don't make it way too alkaline. I've can you know you consume sodium hydro, I mean you put it in pretzels, it's gonna you're gonna be fine. Just don't use too much and look up uh how to substitute to get the proper pH. Uh if I'd had time, I would have looked it up for you, but I didn't get a chance.
+
+[32:00] You want to take a break? Sure. And we're gonna go to our first commercial break. We'll be right back with cooking issues. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets.
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+[32:19] I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a feta compli for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit fairway market.com. And oh welcome back to Cooking Issue Joe.
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+[32:58] You got any uh radiocentric uh things to uh talk about? Any uh any any drives, any anything? Are we uh we're out of the fundraising season? What's going on here? I think fundraising season is over, but um just be on the lookout for some new pieces that we're gonna be putting out.
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+[33:13] Putting out like three to five minute segments, best of coming up soon. So, so you know, to check out the homepage, Heritage Radio Network.org. Now you want to tell our uh our our listeners who uh that uh about the whole new uh the whole new homepage is ja as Jack described this already? I don't know if Jack has described it. Um but it will be unveiled shortly and you're gonna see this whole new format with um different radio spots about you know health, pleasure.
+
+[33:41] So it's gonna be a little bit more newsy, but still with all the programs that you love. Sweet. All right. Uh Nick writes in, hey Dave, Nastashi, Jack and Joe, Nick from Seoul Korea again. When Dave touched on tofu in the past, he's talked about how uh there's good flavorful tofu and then there's the bland watery kind you come across in supermarkets.
+
+[33:59] It's mainly I think it's that they keep they A, they probably don't do a good job making it, and B, they just soak the hell out of it in water. I mean that's the for me the main trick is is that uh when I'm making to well let me finish the question. I don't believe Dave's mentioned how to go about making the good tofu. So how do you make good tofu and what are the primary differences? What are some helpful references, be it on the web or in print that you can recommend?
+
+[34:20] And also, do you know of any places one would go for some good tofu experience? Um, I don't I mean uh if you're in Korea, I'm sure you can get some amazing tofu. I really love uh kind of like you know, Korean kind of cloud tofu soups. So there's a place here in uh New York that does it that I like, but you know, uh you know, you're in the kind of the motherland of that of that kind of a situation, and that's really the only tofu restaurant I go to here in New York. Do you go to uh do you ever go to a tofu restaurant?
+
+[34:51] Um see I'm trying to remember. I've had good home tofu uh home homemade tofu in restaurants, but I'm trying to remember remember where. I mean to me the main the main thing is when you make it yourself, A, you get to choose what texture you want. But B, uh I never ever put it in water, right? So after it, you know, after you do the curds and you and you ladle them and you do whatever level of pressing or not pressing, depending on how soft you want it, uh, that's it for me, right?
+
+[35:15] So it still has some of the whey uh in there, which I like, uh, and it hasn't like all the the you know the flavors of soy, which I actually happen to like, haven't been leached out by having it in big buckets of water for a long time. Um you know, so uh to me like that's the main that's the main difference. Uh so you know the reference that I always give, it's kind of outdated. There's a book I want to get that I don't have uh called uh Asian Tofu, Discover the Best, uh Make Your Own and Cook It At Home by Andrea Nguyen. Uh I don't have this book.
+
+[35:47] It gets good ratings on Amazon, and it's definitely one of the books on my list of things to get. Um but you know, when I I I first started making tofu, I don't know, like, you know, 17 years ago or something like this. Uh maybe not that that far? Maybe 17 years from that, maybe not. Maybe 15, 15 years, maybe.
+
+[36:05] Uh and the book that uh I used was um kind of the only book at the time in English called The Book of Tofu by uh William uh Shirtleff and Akiko Ayagi, I think is how you pronounce her name. And then but the here's the like now uh this might be have been superseded, but at the time, and I've talked about you know these guys before, uh you know, their goal, and they have I think what's called like the Soy Institute or something like this in California, and they're they're still going strong, even though I think they wrote the book in like 1980 something, uh, is uh their goal is uh to save the world through better protein consumption. And you know, soy they wrote a book, a you know, famous book on soy, a famous book on miso, and I believe they have a couple other famous ones. Now here's the thing. You need to go buy their book because it's uh not that expensive, and you need to own it.
+
+[36:54] Uh but there's a bunch of different versions of it on the on the web to buy. I'm not sure if it's still in print or not. You want to make sure you don't get the mass market paperbacks because the mass market paperback is the recipes are hacked up in a weird way that makes it uh impossible. You want to get the larger format paperback is good, and the hardcover, including the hardcover one where they bound the book of Miso and the Book of Tofu together, is fine. The smaller mass market one, at least the edition that I own, and I've owned like four copies of this book.
+
+[37:26] I gave one to Nastasha. Have you ever used that book? But you know, the tofu book. I gave it to you, didn't you? Remember?
+
+[37:31] I hand it to you. Anyway, it got lost. It's gone. Somebody else named Nastasha. Okay.
+
+[37:36] They didn't, I swear I there would be no reason to give it to me. You did not. Well, who else would have asked for it? Mindy? I don't know.
+
+[37:42] Uh and then uh, you know, I own a cup. Whatever. Make sure you get the right one. Um, the other thing is that I you know I don't really follow his his tofu works like this. You make you get your soybeans, you soak them, you gotta soak them for the right amount of time.
+
+[37:57] Uh then you blend them uh with uh different amounts of hot water, and you change the temperature depending on how you want to do it. You blend the hell out of it, right? And then that's determining how thick your soy milk is. Uh change the thickness of soy milk, you know, depending on what you want. I don't remember my specific specs, but I use fundamentally the exact water specs that are in the tofu book, in Shirtleaf's tofu tofu book.
+
+[38:20] Uh then you boil it for a certain amount of time. Now remember, this is the messy part because it will boil over and cause problems because you have to inactivate uh certain anti-nutrients in the uh in the soy. Uh you then uh take it and you stir in a coagulant, right? Now, traditional Japanese coagulant would be nigari, which is the salts left over from or bittern is another word for it. It's the salts left over from the production of sea salt, so sea salt primarily sodium chloride, and then the bittern, the nigari left over, primarily magnesium and calcium oil's other salts.
+
+[38:53] Uh and those are the ones that uh you use for tofu. Now I uh you know at the time didn't have an ax uh supply of this crap, so I just went to the Dwayne Reed, which is our local pharmacy here, although Stas you hate Dwayne Reed or you hate CVS? I love C V S. You hate right aid. I don't hate all the rest.
+
+[39:08] I love CVS. Okay. Um you go and you buy Epsom salts, right? Uh and Epsom salts is what is that? That might be magnesium chloride.
+
+[39:16] I gotta look it up. But you don't want to use too much Epsom salts or it'll it'll make the tofu run through you if you know what I mean. Boop, boop, boop, because it's a laxative, you know what I'm saying? But uh a small amount of Epsom salts is stirred in. Um the the cations in the Epsom salt uh cause the tofu to coagulate break.
+
+[39:34] Uh you carefully move it around to get the to get the curves to coagulate without beating it up too much, and then you ladle the curds out extremely gently into a container and you either press it down with weights if you want it firm or not. Let it uh and that's that's it. So uh you know you can use gypsum, which is I believe calcium sulfate, but I gotta look it up because I didn't look it up beforehand. Uh you you know you can use a gypsum, which is Chinese uh kind of traditional. You can use nigari, which is kind of Japanese traditional.
+
+[40:00] He claims you can use seawater, although I've never had luck doing it. Uh and I know you can use Epsom salts because that's the one I use most often. But it very simple to do and definitely worthwhile. Um just don't soak the hell out of it in water, which is how you ruin that stuff. Um wait a minute.
+
+[40:16] Good. Alright. Um I want some of that tofu soup now. That stuff is so good. It's like never been pressed, it's just like the clouds of tofu after it's coagulate, it'll ladled out and put in the soup.
+
+[40:27] Uh-huh. I don't know what it's called in uh Korean though. I'll I'll figure it out. I'll ask I'll ask someone uh who knows. Okay.
+
+[40:35] Uh Matt writes in uh hey guys, I need to make a no sugar added sorbet. For instance, I'd like to make a sour lemon sorbet. How would I go about that? Some online research turned up some vague ideas like using gelatin, alcohol, guar gum, and some other things to stop it from freezing solid, but I haven't found anything concrete. Any ideas?
+
+[40:55] Okay. Yeah. So all of those things, yeah. None of those things are going to do exactly what you want sugar to do. So the question, Matt, is do you want to have no sugar for a flavor point, or is it because there is a dietary restriction involved?
+
+[41:13] See, alcohol is going to lower the freezing point of your of your of your product straight up. It will. But if you've ever tried to freeze high alcohol stuff, it doesn't um it doesn't modify the texture in the same way that uh sugar does. So the product it like is gonna it's not gonna have the same texture as if it was done with sugar. Now, if you used alcohol and then maybe added some something like a stabilizer and make it gummy, like a gelatin or a guar, then maybe you can get it approximating what a uh you know, a real real sorbet is gonna be, but it's never gonna be quite the same because sugar you know um has very good texturizing properties.
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+[41:55] Now what you can do if you want it to be very like fairly unsweet is to use a much lower uh sweetening power sugar. Okay. Now uh I haven't actually had uh I I I don't I haven't used that much. Paul Librand, I don't know if you still use it, used to use a product called Lightes. I don't even know if it's still available, but it's a sugar that has absolutely it's a sugar substitute, I forget how they make it, has absolutely no sweetness.
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+[42:21] It's dead unsweet. But you can get uh glucose syrups that are fairly low in sweetness, um very, very low sweetness, that have a high solids content and have good water binding capacity, which is what you want here. You want to jack the solids, you want to uh bind some of the water and you want to decrease the freezing point of the liquid. So if you if you were to use like some alcohol, maybe maybe add some jelly, but then use uh you know like a very uh low uh DE uh that's dexterous equivalent like uh like 42 or lower glucose syrup which has fairly low DE that's not sweet you can um get a very unsweet thing it's no one would recognize it as being sweet like a sweet um dessert thing but you you can um you know you can not not have some problems of having a bad texture so you know Nils used to do at Aka Viet a a goat cheese uh ice cream that was I believe he used like a 42 DE or glucose syrup uh in conjunction with a locust bean gum and then and then like those two things together could get the texture that you want even though the sugar level is somewhat reduced and that thing was not sweet at all. It tasted like uh like goat cheese.
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+[43:39] You know what I'm saying? So I think you want to go uh something something like that. But you're gonna need to jack the solids, especially on a sorbet where you don't have like milk proteins and things like that to to round it up. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[43:51] She's like, yeah, whatever, whatever. Don't care. Hey, were there any questions I need I missed from last time? No. I got them all?
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+[43:56] Yeah, it was only six. Really? Mm-hmm. Remember you commented, I was like, because it's Labor Day. Uh yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:59] All right. Um Christian from Michigan writes in. Uh I have a couple questions for you this week. I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me. You use low temperature cooking and sous vide as very different descriptions of cooking methods, and I'm curious as to how you make the distinction.
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+[44:17] Is it strictly that under vacuum constitutes sous vide while everything else is low temp? Yes. I mean, look, so very simply, Sous vide means uh uh in a vacuum. So Sous vide techniques include uh cooking techniques, they include preservation techniques, they include um you know infusion techniques, texture modification techniques. Anything that involves a vacuum uh is sous vide.
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+[44:44] It well we we not 100%. We really mean in vacuum bags or using a vacuum machine. So like vacuum distillation, they don't really consider a sous vide technique. But it means under a vacuum. Low temperature, right, is any time you're controlling the temperature that you're cooking with so accurately that you're that the cooking medium, whether it be oil or water or moist air, is very close to the temperature you want to cook to.
+
+[45:07] So low temperature requires um very accurate temperature control and an environment like oil, water, or uh you know, 100% humidity uh air that can accurately transmit um uh a temperature, right? So dry air doesn't work because you can't control the temperature of the products you're cooking because with dry air you get evaporative cooling, right? You can't control it, so you can't do low temperature cooking that way. Low temperature cooking is about temperature control. Um whereas in vacuum, you know, sous-vid cooking, you could use wild wildly unregulated heat source, right?
+
+[45:40] You could use boiling water, which is actually is regulated, but it's very high, or any temperature in between, you don't need to cook it to the temperature you want to cook your product to. So they're very, very different. Now, vacuum bagging sous- vide is very useful technique for doing low temperature cooking, but many things that you cook low temperature you don't cook in a vacuum bag. Eggs, for instance, are not cooked in a vacuum bag. You can do uh old style confie in a combi oven low temp and not, although I prefer com confid traditional temperatures, uh, without a vacuum bag.
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+[46:12] And the reason to separate the two is not just because they are different, is uh because there are, especially in professional um professional arenas, there are um uh rules that pertain to using modified atmosphere packaging because when you remove oxygen, you uh increase the risk for growing um uh anaerobic uh spore-forming bacteria like botulism and that that and prevent uh spoilage bacteria from letting you know things have gone south. So, in a professional environment, there's all kinds of rules when you're using modified atmosphere packaging and sous vide that don't attain when you're using um low temperature cooking. So I like to maintain a bright line just because you know, in the years that I was training chefs to use this thing, it was very important that they make that distinction because it could be a big problem when the health inspector comes in and they don't know how to accurately talk about the difference between modified atmosphere, which has the extra theoretically the extra risks of um of having no oxygen, versus low temperature, which doesn't necessarily have those risks. Uh so that you know that's very important. Um and the in and the other thing is is that is that they're just freaking different.
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+[47:20] Like why you should think of the you know you should think of the vacuum process as being the vacuum process and all the things that uh attain to the vacuum process, and you should think of the cooking process as the cooking process and all the things that attain from cooking. They're just not the same, you know. Um second question. Uh when we're uh talk about creating fat powders, we generally talk about liquid oils or at least rendered fats. Aside from using avocado oil, is there enough fat or a method of manipulation in an avocado to turn it into the powder from the fruit itself?
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+[47:49] Avocado oil lacks a lot of the richness and fruit flavor that I'm looking to achieve. Yes, it does. Uh thanks for giving me my nerd fix on my long commutes to and from work. I'm often taking notes illegally on my phone while driving. Don't do that.
+
+[48:00] Don't do that. Don't do that. Uh while the real gems of information pop up. Long live nerds. Christian from Michigan, PS.
+
+[48:07] I can relate to your travel stories with regards to knives and electronics. I've given a few workshops uh on Arduino in Canada and always end up at customs fighting deportation as I explain away microcontroller boards, wires, and X-Acto knives while covered in tattoos and looking scruffy. Fun times. Yeah, I've had some airport situations. Okay, avocados.
+
+[48:24] When you're making uh uh powders from um fats, you can use solid fats, solid fats or liquid fats, right? You're using what's called tapioca, uh a specific type of tapioca maltodextrin called ensorbit. Uh and sorbit, uh what is it, M or N my brain just fried. But uh ensorbit is made by the National Starch Corporation, and specifically it is a bulking agent, which has very, very low bulk density, right? Now all starches, I think, if I think about this, but starches uh have uh a helix form, and the outside of the starch is uh uh hydrophilic, and the inside of the starch helix is lipophilic, like fats, which means that fats can insert themselves on the inside of uh the uh of this helix, right?
+
+[49:08] So what happens is uh you take this thing that has an extremely low bulk density, the fat gets stored on the inside of the of these helices for the uh n-sorbit, and because there's no water in the system, the it maintains some of its higher bulk density, and you can make powders out of fats. That's how Nsorbit works. As soon as you add water to NZOBIT, so if I hand you a pound of Nzorbit, right, it's like a giant cube because it weighs almost nothing. So when you um and and even when you add oil, you reduce its its uh you increase its bulk density dramatically. You you know it decreases in size dramatically, the ends orbit.
+
+[49:45] The minute you add any liquid to end zorbit at all, it starts like watering out, right? I mean, you see it. It's like the whole point of it is that when you make these oil powders, you put it in your mouth, the endsorbit goes away, and you're left with the oil, right? So the the question is how much water is there in avocado? And I think there's a substantial amount of uh w water in an avocado, substantial amount of oil, but also substantial amount of water.
+
+[50:10] And so my feeling is that the water content of the avocado is going to be too high to uh uh is gonna be too high to make a powder with nsorbit unless you use a boat ton of it. Um but your results may may uh may vary. You've got to find out, uh we'll find out, you know, so someone will write and be like, I make avocado powder with enzorbit all the time. What are you talking about? Uh but it it I i i I would be I would be careful.
+
+[50:39] I would think that there's much too much water in an avocado get that happen. Speaking of modernist techniques, I forgot back on tofu. Back when I was experimenting with tofu, was prior to this explosion that took place like four or five years ago, where people started making tofu out of everything. Now I tested years ago trying to make like peanut tofu, which was okay, uh, kind of soft, uh different kind different kinds of tofu. But I believe in modernist cuisine there's a bunch of interesting different kinds of tofu like other legume curds.
+
+[51:06] So go look at that for tofu information for non-standard uh tofu information. Um they answered the fat powder thing? All right, all right. Uh see. Okay.
+
+[51:19] I got checking people, make sure I'm not going to miss any of your questions because I think I can actually get them all today. Yes. Alright, we got one last question coming in from James on uh from Bitterroot Montana on Sturgeon. And I'm liking this one. Ready for this?
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+[51:38] Sturgeon, by the way. Uh Stas, you you're you're the half of you that is Russo Ukrainian enjoys uh sturgeon. Yeah. Uh and like Stas, we have a personal story about this one. That they actually, not really, because we never did anything with it.
+
+[51:51] Anyway, Dave and Crew, big fan of the show. We got a sturgeon in yesterday. When I was butchering it, uh, I was looking at the spine and noticed how soft the tissue was inside. I cut off two chunks, split one open lengthwise, and left the other one whole. Salt, oil, and in a uh 450 degree oven, they went for 10 minutes.
+
+[52:07] When they came out, the one that had been split resembled a lobster tail bursting with soft white meat. Like that. You like that sound? Bursting with soft white meat. The texture was soft as a pillow and absolutely delicious.
+
+[52:18] I'm writing to ask if there are any health risks involved that you can think of for clients. I feel fine, but was thinking of anything uh long term. You can never really consume all that much of it. The yield was poor. Also, any ideas for other applications or experiments you could think of that would be fun to try with this ingredient.
+
+[52:34] Uh, James Roundy from Bitterroot, Montana. This is a great question. First of all, I had no idea. Okay, so sturgeon uh paddle fish and a group of other uh fish that are out there are kind of like living dinosaurs. They're there's an old, old style fish.
+
+[52:53] And in fact, they're uh, you know, one of the few few things out there that don't act have a normal spinal cord like most fish have, they have what's called a notochord, right? Because they're super primitive. Uh some people who fish for certain of these things, and I think I'll also like colacancer stuff. I don't know if you can fish for those, call them dino fish. So I had no inclination that there might be a possible problem with uh spinal cord.
+
+[53:19] Uh in fact, not only that, in in in Russia, there's a well where you know they they get the the sturgeon uh from the Caspian to make caviar, there's a well-known delicacy uh called uh Vesiga that is the dried um spinal cord of sturgeon, right? Or sp it's not a spinal cord, excuse me, notochord, right? The dried notochord of the sturgeon. So I read about this, I believe, in the Time Life books. I think I read about them uh in the Russian one, uh this delicacy I wanted to try it, and then Nastasha and I in vain tried to locate some.
+
+[53:53] We bought some sturgeon in hopes that we could get some spine out of it, and they'd already removed it, so we couldn't get anything out of it. Uh but this is a it was a huge delicacy. It was it was uh what they would do is squeeze all of the fluffy stuff out of the middle that you're talking about, and then they would dry it, and then they would chop it up, rec salt, dry it up, reconstitute it, and use it in fancy soups. And uh the one piece of information that's all over the internet about it now that wasn't when we researched it before, was that it was uh part of the last meal served on the Titanic. Uh one of the soups that's one of the last meals in first class had this uh had this ingredient in it.
+
+[54:25] If you want to read a little bit about of it, you can go to uh the animal food resource. This is a Google book. The Animal Food Resources of Different Nations with mentions of some of the special dainties of various people derived from the animal kingdom by Peter Lund Simmons uh from the 1880s. And it's available on the Google books. And at first I thought this is a really charming book because it also has a better description of um the rice bird, the bobble link and how it was used in the US and its similarity to Ordalon.
+
+[54:52] Best description I've read of it so far, including the Market Assistant, which is another great book I read from the 1800s, or the Carolina Rice Kitchen translation by Hess uh or not translation, but you know, reprint anyway. My point is uh interesting book until like until the first chapter is on cannibalism, and they're bust he's busting out so much hardcore racism. I know it's the 1800s and everything, but just makes it so hard. So it starts with saying that luckily for us, and when he says us, of course, he means you know uh uh white European stock. Luckily for us, cannibals don't find the flesh of whites tasty.
+
+[55:28] And I'm not I can't even bring myself to say like who who are esteemed as being the tasty ones, but it's just it's just uh it's uh it's horrible. Anyway, uh but uh good good description of things uh like the the visiga. Now, so yes, Sturgeon uh notocord is and by the way, Stas, we never got to see it because but now there's videos of it on YouTube, people pulling it out. Yeah, and it's like as big around as like uh what what what shape what what am I making here? Maybe it's like half inch across or something like this?
+
+[55:59] Like a jump rope. People use it like a jump rope. It's it's long, and uh here's here's how you get it out. Here's how you get the cord out. So, oh, oh, oh.
+
+[56:08] So the question is, why would you think that this is bad? But then you go online and everyone says that there's all these kind of like tales of how it's toxic, how if you cut it, it'll ruin the meat, and all this other stuff. I found a very old, and I forgot to put the link on a very old uh uh article from um a university on closely related fish, the paddlefish and cleaning it. The issue is this uh in sturgeon meat and in paddlefish meat, you want the white part of the meat and the blood, anything that has blood on it, anything that is connected with the kind of the yellowish stuff around the spine or the blood that's close to the skin surface, anything that's not that white meat is detested by the fishermen that get it because they say it tastes incredibly fishy and that no one will like it. So there's every attempt is made to bleed out a sturgeon or a paddle fish as soon as it's humanly possible and to get as much of the blood out.
+
+[57:02] And the old school people don't say that the stuff is toxic. What they say is that you remove the spinal cord to allow the fish to bleed more effectively and to get more of the blood to drain out. And here's how you do it: you take the tail and you cut around the tail, right? So you cut around the tail without cutting through this notocord, which is like this hard rope, right? Cut almost all the way around it through it.
+
+[57:25] Then uh some people disagree on whether or not you also need to make a mark uh a mark to cut at the head to sever it up the top. People disagree on this. Here's the part that Stas gonna like. You grab the whole fish, which are huge because sturgeons are big, and you grab the tail and you go crack, uh, crack, uh you turn it like 90 degrees each way, and you crack the connections, and then you use the tail as a handle and you pull on it, and you can see the notal cord ripping out of the back of the fish, and it comes out like this weird like piece of intestine with little like bl-da blith blith bl. But it comes out white, so it doesn't have the the blood in it, although I saw a guy do it on a paddle fish and it was a bloody mess.
+
+[57:59] But you pull it out, right, and that was done to uh increase the s the speed at which you get the blood out. The modern uh sturgeon filleting technique that I saw from these guys in Oregon, they're super fast and they they don't deal with the spinal cord at all. In fact, they this one guy doesn't even end up gutting it, he just cuts the fillets off without ever gutting it, and then just throws the whole head and the tail in. But he's missing out on taking the this spinal cord. Now, again, I don't know about the goop in the in the middle, and there are some people who are using um uh extracts of sturgeon notochord for medical purposes, but I didn't get a chance to wade through the patents on that.
+
+[58:38] But spinal cord is used in the past as a very high-end food stuff. Uh, and everything I can read says that the removal of the spinal cord was just a uh a technique to make sure that you get the blood out to increase the quality of the meat because nobody likes fishy tasting sturgeon. And I encourage everyone to go look at the crazy videos of people pulling the now. Listen, I don't want to hear anything. There are varieties of sturgeon out there that can be responsibly farmed, they're controlled by fisheries.
+
+[59:03] So I'm not advocating taking uh you know a beautiful amazing fish that's close to extinction and overfishing it anymore. That but I'm not, but but go look at some of these crazy videos of people pulling the notocords out of paddle paddle fish and uh and sturgeons, it's it's bananas. Anyway, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:39] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org with thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in the back of uh no, well, we're in the back of Roberta's. We're in Bushwick. Kind of the back of Bushwick, too, though, right? Pretty much. Kind of like the butt end of Bushwick.
+
+[0:47] Oh, really? You think that this is the front end of Bushwick? I think people who actually live in Bushwick might disagree. I don't know. I live here.
+
+[0:54] You live in industrial Bushwick or you live in Bushwick Bushwick. I live in Bushwick Bushwick, like by the park. Yeah, but I mean This is like East Industrial Williamsburg Park. Stuff. Yeah.
+
+[1:06] Well, Bushwick sounds a little more catchy than that, right? Bushwick. Uh joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lupit. How are you doing, Styles? Good.
+
+[1:13] Yeah. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey guys. How's the wine? Great.
+
+[1:17] Uh it's good. You want to tell us what uh what you've gave uh given us to drink? I wish I could. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[1:23] Well, it's some form of oxidized wine that Nastasha, by the way, here's something for all you people that she actually enjoys. She likes uh various varieties of oxidized wine products. Hey, look at that. I didn't even know. Like, are you a big sherry fan?
+
+[1:35] Not not really. I didn't I think it has something to do with the color. I like the orange color. I like the the weird taste. That sounds like you.
+
+[1:43] Alright. So uh listen, this is a actually, uh, a real coincidence. I don't want people to think that uh I'm shilling out for uh sponsors here, because I had no idea Underground meats was uh is this the first time they're sponsoring us? Uh first or second. I think maybe once or twice before, but he was here recently.
+
+[1:58] Cool dude. Nice. Well, anyway, turns out the guys from uh Underground Meets in uh Mad Town, as I guess they like to call it, the cheesehead, cheesehead folks. Uh you know, Pete have you ever met you know you ever hung out with people from uh Madison, Wisconsin? I mean, just Johnny Hunter from Underground Meets.
+
+[2:14] But like in here's the thing about Madison, Wisconsin. I've uh I've I think I went once when I was a little kid because I used to go to uh Oshkosh for the fly-in, you know, the with the EAA flying. Yeah. But uh people from Madison freaking love it. Like everyone that went to school up there, everyone they just they freaking love it.
+
+[2:29] You ever meet someone from Madison who's like, yeah, man, Madison. Everybody I know from Madison is obsessed with a card game called Sheep's Head. Like Sheep's Head Bay, but not Sheep's Head Bay. It's a card game. And whenever Madison people get together, they play Sheep's Head.
+
+[2:46] What's it based on? Is it a trick-based game? No, I can't even really ex describe it because I always lose because I don't know how to play because I'm not from Madison. Does it involve cheese or beer? Well, I'm sure.
+
+[2:56] Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, uh so uh back to what we were talking about. Turns out the Underground uh Meets, by the way, which is part of a larger thing of Majig called the Underground Food Collective that's going on there in uh in Madison, right? They have a Kickstarter, and I read about it, it's actually quite uh an interesting Kickstarter, so uh just uh talk about here.
+
+[3:15] First you want to search on uh go on and go to Kickstarter.com or anywhere, I guess, the Google, uh and uh search for uh underground uh underground meets and then Kickstarter and you'll you'll get it right away. And uh it's very interesting. Here's the thing. They have a um they have a uh the right to sell their cured meats and charcuterie on a state level, right? They have Wisconsin state approval, but they want to get USDA approval so that they can sell across state lines, so they can get approved to sell across state lines.
+
+[3:44] In order to do that, you need to have what's called a validated HACC plans. Now, for you guys that uh don't know what a HACC plan is, HACCP stands for hazard analysis critical control points. And it's the fundamental core. Oh, by the way, calling your questions two, 7184972128, that's 74972128 back to HACCP. So HACCP is uh it's the core of food safety in uh the United States and actually in other countries as well.
+
+[4:09] And it was originally designed um for the space program, at least this is my my interpretation of it. You know, the space program, they when they were doing that, they realized that uh, you know, if an astronaut got food poisoned in space, it could be it could have some serious, serious, serious consequences. So, you know, you don't want the astronauts to get the runs in space because how you gonna hold that stuff in? Just kidding, that's not really why. But they still wanted to be sick in space.
+
+[4:32] So they wanted to have a zero tolerance policy on uh foodborne uh illness in in space, and so they applied a lot of the same uh verification and checking techniques uh to the food that was going into the space program as was going into the individual components, the switches, the wires, the you know, the materials that were in the spacecraft themselves. So large companies figured out a way to uh in essence, as best you can guarantee food safety. So big, big companies were involved in this program, ones like Pillsbury, uh, but it just became the over overarching way that we uh do food safety in the US. And what it stands for is hazard analysis. You first have to analyze the hazards, and a hazard can be anything from maybe some person was uh picking fruit in a field somewhere and their ring fell off.
+
+[5:20] And their ring fell off into uh this has happened to me. Not while I was picking fruit, but while I was washing a dishes one. Your ring falls off, and then it ends up in the basket of uh of fruit and the thing, and then it ends up in your equipment, and then somehow ends up in your food, and then you chew on the ring, and you know, lo and behold, you crack your tooth. Well, that's a hazard, right? So you've analyzed that hazard.
+
+[5:40] Uh and those hazards can be anything from things like actual foreign object damage, stuff like that, foreign objects, to uh adult like deliberate adulteration by things like terrorists, which is why a lot of the hassle also got a big boost in terms of uh traceability uh after 9-11. Uh to uh destroying uh pathogens to ensuring the cold train, all of these things are analyzing where there can be possible hazards within uh this the the food chain all the way from the where the raw ingredient was produced until the consumer puts it in their mouth. Uh right? Okay. Now the the that's only the first part.
+
+[6:16] You have to analyze the hazards, hazard analysis. Now you have what's called critical control point. You say, okay, I know there's a hazard. You know, person might drop their ring into the basket of fruit that they're picking. Now you have to have a control point.
+
+[6:28] Well, so how am I going to control to make sure that uh the ring doesn't make it into the apple pie? Well, uh, let's say I put a metal detector at the front of the uh factory. When the apples come in, all the apples go through a metal detector, and if there's any metal, we make sure we take it out. That's a control point. Now, I guess they wanted a catchy thing, so they called it HACCP because there's actually a third and very important part to HACCP, and that's verification.
+
+[6:51] You have to have log books and you have to be able to verify that you've checked and verify that your control points are adequately monitoring uh uh your products to ensure that they're safe. Hazard analysis, critical control point, and verification, right? HACCP. Now, uh, you know, it's these are things that are done, for instance, modified HACCP plans, simple HACCP plans are put in place all the time. And restaurants, for instance, here in New York, uh, for uh sous vide cooking, but also it's used in a much more kind of uh screwed down, tightened down, buttoned-down way industrially by everyone who's a commercial food producer now.
+
+[7:24] The issue if you're gonna get a USDA approval to do something like charcuterie is you need what's called a validated Hasset plan, right? And what a validated Hasset plan is not only that you shown in theory that you have uh analyzed all the hazards and that you have chosen the correct critical control points and that you are verifying properly. You have to then prove it with an outside third-party source, and that costs money. Now, let me just show you something. Uh, there's uh there's an article, Jonathan Hunter from uh from the uh Underground Food Collective, did an interview on foodsafety news.com uh about this Kickstarter they're doing.
+
+[7:58] So what these guys are trying to do is they're trying to raise 40 grand, right? If they raise the 40 grand, they can hire the outside sources to do the microbiology and to do all the things to prove that the techniques that they're writing down uh for curing meats do in fact kill pathogens, right? They're gonna, I'm presumably they're gonna measure uh the salt content, the pH. I don't know if they're gonna measure water activity or what, but they're gonna they're gonna verify that the techniques and tools that they use to verify safety for the salumi products that they're making, they're gonna verify that those things are in fact safe. And then they have to you pay someone to verify that for them.
+
+[8:29] So here's a comment by by someone named JT on the internet uh on the article on food safety. And I'm mentioning this because it's like classic people who make comments on the internet, presumably in their pajamas late at night while they're while they're sipping on on their on their last glass of wine before they hit the bed or while they're watching Cherry Springer, they think that they can make a comment that it is useful. So here's what JT said, and I'm only saying this because I want people to know uh kind of where this kind of comment goes wrong, so that you don't think the same way. Because what these guys are doing, they're asking for 40 grand, they're going to have their own uh validated HACCP plan, but then I forgot to mention this, I should have said this right at the outset. What they're gonna do is take this HACCP plan and then publish it so that anyone who uses the same procedures and same equipment can then use that same HACCP plan without having to shell out 40 grand.
+
+[9:14] They're trying to make an open source kind of uh validated HACCP plan. That's the concept. Okay, look. So JT writes in incorrectly. If you understand, this is about like why like I'll paraphrase JT.
+
+[9:25] What do you need a what do you need 40 grand for a HACC plan to hire someone else to do a HACCP plan for? That's how I imagine JT talks. Because he says, if you understand your processes and how to make them safe and clean, then you should really be able to develop your own HACCP plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist. See already a like a lack of understanding. Yeah, you could have a template for a theoretical HACCP plan, but you need a verified HACCP plan for specific procedures, especially something like Salumi, where you're dealing with multifactorial barriers to killing uh uh bacteria and pathogens, like uh water activity, salt content, pH, all intertwined and time, whatever.
+
+[10:00] Anyway, so uh you should really be able to develop your own HACC plan based on the numerous guys and templates that already exist. If you need to hire a third party to develop your HACC plan, forget that you need to, because you need to prove it. Not only do you need to provide the actual scientific, you can go anyone who cares to can go on the FSIS, which is whatever it is, food safety inspection services, whatever website, and read what's required to get a validated HACCP plan. Because it's right there on the thing. Uh and uh, you know, it's the URL is too long to read, but they they have it there.
+
+[10:29] It's first you have to get your own uh scientific uh bolstering facts, right, from actual scientific literature literature. And if that doesn't exist, which thankfully it does in this case, but if that doesn't exist, you have to provide it. And then you have to do that and in practice prove that your tech specific techniques work. Anyway, so uh if you need to hire a third party to develop your HACC plan, then you probably should not be in the business you're in because that means you are highly ignorant about how to safely produce your products, or JT, you were highly ignorant about regulation. Uh so please go check out uh their Kickstarter.
+
+[11:01] And remember, if you enjoy uh the ability for small producers who cannot afford to have a validated hasset plan, if you would enjoy to have more of those people around in our country making delicious products or at least making products that they believe in. If you support people doing what they believe in, then you should go take a look at this Kickstarter. What do you think? Good. Yeah.
+
+[11:21] Okay. Was he talking about that on the on the on the program, Jack? Uh yeah, we did. We did a short piece with him that I think will debut soon on the whole issue of breaking down HACCP and everything. Yeah, I mean, I hope well, I hope uh what I just said put uh jives what he said because that kind of said off the top of my head.
+
+[11:38] But remember, you only got 22 days to donate to that Kickstarter. And they send you salami if you do. Cool. Anyways. Okay.
+
+[11:45] Uh got some questions in. Um now, Steven, Steven Benziger wrote in uh earlier and he says that, hey, I asked you called last week about transglutaminase and hydrocolloid polymerization resources to post, but I can't remember for the life of me what I said I was gonna post. Can anyone remember what the heck I said I was gonna post? Someone like Stephen, tweet in to me and tell me exactly what I said I was gonna post, and I'll make sure that I do it. Because you gotta remember, like my mind uh totally like goes blank, Fritz's and runs with me.
+
+[12:15] You sure it wasn't from two weeks ago? It was many weeks ago if this because this email was lost, so it was many weeks ago. No, there were no calls last week. Oh, who's Dino. Yeah.
+
+[12:24] All right. Uh anyway, so Steven was also curious about some foods that he can circulate and refrigerate for long periods of time. Being a medical student, uh, he says, I like to cook on week, hope to cook on weekends and reheat them before or at school. Thanks. Uh okay, well, there are a lot of products that you can in fact, like one of the main benefits of uh now let's go sous vide in particular, of sous vide cooking is you can pre-circulate a lot of your stuff and then just uh re-therm it.
+
+[12:51] You know, remember you can't this is another one of the bizarre things. You can't say reheat because reheat is a technical term. You can say it at home, it doesn't matter. But like it in like in professionally, if you say reheat, you have to reheat it to a pathogen-killing uh temperature. Whereas if you've pasteurized your product and kept it uh you know properly cold during the thing, then you only have to re-thermalize it, which means you can heat up to any temperature you want.
+
+[13:14] Uh okay, so uh most things are possible to do this way. The only thing that you can't really do are things that you can't pasteurize. If you're gonna if you're gonna heat something in a bag, right, and in this in when you're doing this, you're gonna keep something for a long time. It's advisable to actually vacuum bag it because when you do things like zippies, there's some in it's some oxygen on the inside. And if you're doing uh foods that have or that are prone to oxidation, like meats, especially meats tend to oxidize on reheating.
+
+[13:42] It's called warmed over flavor. If you have uh problem thing, you know, products like that, it behooves you to get rid of the oxygen in there so that you don't have those sorts of issues on retherm, that you don't have kind of oxidized off flavors, not dangers, just off flavors. So you probably want to invest in a vacuum bag in a situation like that. And you want to make sure if you're gonna keep stuff for a long time that you pasteurize the products that you put in, right? Because if you don't pasteurize them, if you're just heating them to a point where uh, you know, maybe you like the way they taste, but you've left bacteria, you could be put in a situation where you actually have incubated a certain portion of the bacteria and cause it to be less safe.
+
+[14:17] Possible. I mean, not likely, but possible. So you want to choose things that you can pasteurize. What does that mean? Don't do fish.
+
+[14:23] Most fish can't be adequately pasteurized in a vacuum bag because you're gonna have to cook it for too high or for too long to get uh good pasteurization such that you can safely cool it and then retherm it again later. Almost anything, if you pasteurize it properly, can be kept in uh your fridge for a week and then eaten uh later with no ill effects. Now, uh commercially, there is data that some people have gotten things to grow uh in vacuum bags uh uh you know at temperatures um between 38 Fahrenheit and 40 Fahrenheit in that range. And so we actually have to keep uh, you know, if you're gonna store stuff for a week commercially, at least in New York, I don't know federally yet, uh, because it's been a while since I've read this stuff, you actually have to keep your products below 40 degrees. Uh I mean it's it's been a while, but I think the number is somewhere like 38 or uh or maybe even 34.
+
+[15:15] I gotta look it up. If you want to keep it for uh a full week, otherwise, you know, you have a shorter window to keep it. However, uh in the reality, if you do uh adequate pasteurization and you cool the stuff down uh rapidly enough, you know, you're not gonna get um you're not gonna get in in in most real-world situations any sort of bacterial growth on the inside of that bag within that one week time, you know, within the within the Monday to Friday window if you're cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and you're gonna eat it before uh a Monday or a Friday. Just make sure that you adequately pasteurize everything. That's all.
+
+[15:49] Yeah, yeah. She said it just so I just so I like so that I'll be quiet and move on to something. So they I know Stai, I know you so well. She's like, you just be quiet about the about the safety stuff. She says like, Sus doesn't care, Stoz.
+
+[15:59] Well uh you care about safety somewhat. I do. I do. Yeah. Not my safety.
+
+[16:04] No. No. No. Alright. And with that, why don't we take our first commercial break?
+
+[16:08] Coming back with cooking issues. Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While Underground Meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques.
+
+[16:51] The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and Mule Foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop dot underground food collective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And welcome back. What's up, Sas?
+
+[17:21] Oh, I thought they were gonna do another commercial. Nope, they're not. It's just us. Nice, right? Okay.
+
+[17:25] Uh although we don't we don't mind the commercials. We like we like commercials. Kinda, right? Okay. Um Lucas writes in who we met.
+
+[17:36] Pretty sure it's the same Lucas that we met at the uh at the at the we first met him at the Kickstarter launch party and then at the um at the puffing gun party that we had, which was a good party. Yeah. Good party. That was a good party. Okay.
+
+[17:44] Uh I believe I believe this is same Lucas, although I'm not sure. Hey hi Dave, Anastasia, Jack, and Joe. Uh I went to El Kalarkan Roca, but by the way, you know, was named, was it last year or a couple years ago, like the best restaurant in the world? Like, you know, it's the ro it's the Roca family. And I've never by who.
+
+[18:06] What? Who said it was the best? It's one of those pelegrin. You know, I hate first of all, like we say this again. I I'll say this again, although, you know, if if you've met me, I've you've heard me say this a million times.
+
+[18:14] The idea of the best restaurant's the most ridiculous thing in in the world. Yeah. I mean, there actually that's not true. There are more ridiculous things. Like, you know, I don't know, like the Syrian government didn't do that uh chemical attack.
+
+[18:26] That's more ridiculous. But like like bad, like like like best restaurant is just a silly concept. Because what does that mean? Do you want to go out to uh you know a three Michelin star meal every night? No.
+
+[18:38] No. Hell no, right? So like it the it's like the best restaurant on any particular night. I mean, I don't know. It's like but uh that said, uh it's one of the restaurants in the world, one of the, you know, I would say top three restaurants in the world that I want to go to that I haven't been to.
+
+[18:54] Okay. Hey guys, Piper's on the line. Oh, Piper? All right. Well, let me h make make them hold.
+
+[19:00] Boom. Boom. Oh, yeah. All right, now we'll take Piper now and we'll come back to El Kalar, Ken Rogan. I just wanted to be hey Piper.
+
+[19:09] Good. How you doing? Pretty good. So we had a question a couple of weeks ago, and I promised that I would get you uh on the line to talk about it. And it has to do with uh puddings.
+
+[19:21] And I know that you're a pudding head, and so uh you you know by the way, Piper works with us at uh Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation and uh worked for a while um doing research food research technical stuff for CP Kelco the manufacturers of such fine products as gelan and uh a lot of the high grade pectins that you buy and they also make uh what else they make like clear locust bean what do they make clear locust bean gum uh they do carrageenin's gants and gum yeah and uh they have locust bean gum yeah well they need the clear locust bean gum so that they can make their fake gelatin stuff with carrageenan because everyone if you want to do a uh uh a vegetarian uh fake gelatin like one of the classic ones is a mixture of kappa carry uh carragen well mostly kappa carragen and locust bean gum to kind of soften to soften the texture of a little bit so it's not so brittle but if you want to replace gelatin it has to be fairly clear so regular locust bean gum which is cloudy doesn't make a good gelatin replacer so CP coco has to make this expensive clear locust bean gum that would you say it's accurate? Yeah that's right yeah so um anywho so uh I forget who it was but uh gentleman called in a couple weeks ago and said he was having problems with the texture of his puddings and he was doing kind of classic cornstarch based puddings and I knew that you would be making the Piper version of the Nastasha vegan face for not using uh some sort of better pudding technology so what's and I said I would find out what Piper's favorite pudding technology is so go. Well I mean it really depends on what he has at hand to uh like we just had cornstarch you know what I like to do is uh an iota heavy iota kappa carragenin blend. Sorry, iota kappa and uh locust bean blend. So like depending on firmness, like 0.3 iota, 0.1 kappa, and then five locene gum, just for some resist.
+
+[21:20] All right, hold on a second. So you say point what on the uh iota? I like to do about 0.3. Right. Now do you now uh have you had any experience with the readily available uh carrageenan blends?
+
+[21:30] Because something something people don't really understand in general is that hydrocolloids like carrageenans are uh carrageenans are uh gotten from seaweeds, and all all of the carragenas are from the similar varieties of seaweeds, but there's no such thing as pure kappa or pure iota or pure lambda carrageenin. Carragenins, because of the result of uh kind of you know, refining and purifying a natural seaweed product, are all kind of shotgun mixtures, and each manufacturer standardizes a particular carrageenin blend for a particular uh application. So one iota is not the same as uh another iota, one kappa is not the same as another kappa, right? They may have a different blend of uh caragenins, they might have uh di uh hydrocolides come in differing uh polymerization lengths, how long the uh how long the actual polysaccharides are that are in them, and so they have different ranges. But have you found that like the various iodas that are available uh uh for people to purchase are roughly similar in their action here, or do you have a particular brand that you like to use that is available to humans?
+
+[22:30] The textures is is pretty pretty close to the to the most pure um blends that I've been using from CP Celco. Okay. So you use their iota and their kappa? And you well, you say it works fine, their iota and their kappa. All right.
+
+[22:50] And uh yeah, and terra works good too. Terra Spices, iota, and kappa work fine. Okay. So give those per give those percentages one more, Time? Uh well, this is for like uh cream brulee.
+
+[22:59] Right. Iota, 0.1% kappa, and then 0.05 locust bean gum. Okay. Now, uh folks, just so you know, locust bean gum has to be heated above what? About well, all of those things have to be heated above like 75 C or something like that, right?
+
+[23:21] Yeah. I don't yeah, I don't mind taking it to like eighty. Yeah. But then so you so if you're gonna add something that would otherwise uh not work well at those temperatures, proteins, eggs, stuff like that, you would prehydrate that stuff uh and then temper it back in, right? Because locust bean gum is never gonna set and the carrageenans aren't gonna set until it gets down into the probably like the one thirties Fahrenheit, one twenties Fahrenheit, right?
+
+[23:43] Yeah, and then I mean if you've got cornstarch, you can also I mean you can put that in and that could that would sort of soften the the gel up a little bit. It would interrupt the structure. Right. Well that's also why, you know, Wiley's cornstarches his egg yolks to stop them from setting uh in his uh in his Hollandaise sauce. But I believe that's what he does.
+
+[24:03] Well, he probably uses something more sophisticated, but that'll also stop that'll also buffer the proteins a bit if you add them to the proteins first, right? Yeah, I mean it'll yeah, it'll it'll do a couple of things. I mean it'll it'll also sop up some of your tineres not amazingly well. But what I like to do is do about 10% or maybe like 12% sugar, dry blend on my hydrocolides with that. Um disperse in fifty fifty cream and milk, and then uh eat that to you know roughly eighty five, and then put it in the blender and add uh about what like two egg yolks per 250 milliliters of liquid and then I add that at about like as it's cooling down it helps uh it just helps speed things up and then I just pour it into a setting pan.
+
+[25:01] All right. So now to translate some of the things that Piper just said, he dry blends the hydrocolloids with sugar. Why? Because the main problem uh with using hydrocolid, there's two things you need to do with hydrocolloid. Hydrocolloids swell and clump.
+
+[25:12] So if you want them to work, you have to prevent that. So dry blending with sugar helps to physically separate the particles of the hydrocolloids so that they can be dispersed, right? After he disperses them, he hydrates them by heating, right? And then hydrates them in the closest thing to pure water he has in this case, which is milk and whatever whatever else he's gonna do. And then afterwards, as it's cooling in the blender under high shear, adds things like egg yolks and then allows the product to set.
+
+[25:39] Now if you break down what he is using for the actual hydrocolloid base here, he's using iota carragenin. Iota caragin, and by the way, carrageenin, one of the main things about caragenin that's awesome is it has a synergistic effect with uh milk, meaning it takes a very very small amount of carrageenin to set uh uh milk uh and the advantage of of that is that the smaller amount of a hydrocolloid you use to create a gel the less masking you have of flavor well it's cheaper also but you know it for for most people at home that's not really a concern because the amounts you're using are so small but uh also there's a lot less flavor masking if you're using some much smaller amounts of of hydrocolloids. So iota carrageenin is a kind of rubbery, uh, if you use it a lot of it, kind of rubbery uh and kind of bouncy textured stuff. Uh, but you kind of you know, blowing blowing, blowing, blowing kind of texture, it has an interesting properties. Unlike most other hydrocolloids, it will reform a gel after it has been sheared, which is interesting, right?
+
+[26:40] But it's the soft uh one. Kappa is brittle, more like agar, uh it snaps when you break it in half. So he's doing a mix to uh between iota and kappa to get uh the kind of texture he wants, and then he's adding uh locust bean gum. The locust bean gum is going to do two things. It's gonna soften the kappa a bit, right?
+
+[27:01] And it's also going to stabilize any of the water that's not locked into the carrageenin gel matrix and prevent that water from weeping out. That's when he's saying synoresis. So when you have locust bean gum that you're adding, locust bean gum is preventing the weeping or the synoresis that you often get in gel systems or even in regular pudding systems, if you consider them a gel system. And in fact, that is why you have in most ice creams two stabilizers. It's not that they want to jack everything up, but they have one that's uh doing a mild gelling, right, to prevent crystallization, uh something like carrageenin, and then you have uh something to prevent uh what's called weighoff or synoresis, even at low temperature, of liquids out of the matrix of the ice cream, and that is something like a locust bean gum or a guar.
+
+[27:48] Yes or no? Yeah. All right. And also in physics, people use uh non-baker percentages because it would it would throw off the recipe. You say it say it again?
+
+[28:01] They shouldn't use the baker's percentages, it's um it's uh like absolute percentages. You're talking about when you say, well, so Piper, when Piper, because he worked for CP Cocoa, writes a recipe and he says a percent, he means that uh there is um there is one gram of hydrocolloid in ninety-nine grams of water, and that's one percent. Yeah, but you're talking less than a percent on everything. It's gonna be minimal for this. Well, I mean it it's gonna be minimal plus you've got ten to twelve percent sugar, you know.
+
+[28:33] I it it makes a it makes a difference. With the sugar it does, not with the hydrocolloid though. But the sugar is a as a percentage of the whole, your whole your liquid portion is smaller. I don't know. I'm sorry.
+
+[28:45] Well okay, so so what you're saying is what you're saying is they should figure out what their total weight of their batch is and then do your hydrocolloids based on that. Yeah. Because you haven't calculated a liquid a liquid basis only. Yeah. Well, we should calculate a liquid basis only because no one does that, you know?
+
+[29:05] No one uh I mean uh whenever I write a hydrocolloid recipe, I always try to write the numbers based on percent of water and then try to ignore the sugar stuff. But it it's a really it's a complicated thing and it's a problem. The fact of the matter is if you find a recipe that you like that works, as long as you are consistent in applying that recipe, you're gonna be okay. Piper's method, which is the actual method you use in the in the actual in in in business and industry commercially, is better because if you think about the hydrocolloid to liquid base as being or the hydrocolide to total base and how the sugar interacts with it, it's gonna make it easier for you to make a second and third recipe that don't contain sugar, right? That's the that's that's what you're saying.
+
+[29:47] But it makes it more difficult for someone at home to uh to figure out a like uh uh the recipe in general. Would you say that's accurate, Piper or no? That's true. And it also makes it easier for scaling. What your technique?
+
+[30:02] Yeah, my technique. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that must be a reason why everyone does it in the real world. But chefs just don't like it. They don't do it.
+
+[30:09] You know? Anyway. Yeah. All right, Pipes. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[30:13] I'll see you in a little bit. Yep, sir. All right. So back to Lucas's problem. Uh I went to El Calar uh Can Roca a couple of months ago and uh really enjoyed it.
+
+[30:23] The problem is that this place is in Spain and not exactly a budget meal. That's true. I hear it's quite expensive. Anyway, uh one of the most impressive things I had there was an oyster with a venison mayo. It was an intense uh an oyster with venison mayo.
+
+[30:37] It was an intense experience. I'm trying to reproduce it, but I have no idea how to infuse so much flavor into the mayo. I can make a quite a strong stock with a pressure cooking using multiple extraction. Typically, uh once you make mayo, you do not add much of any additional liquid. What happens is either I end up with not a very flavorful product or I break the mayo.
+
+[30:55] Do you think they somehow infuse the oil directly or do they make some ultra flavorful stock? I'm trying with duck rather than venison as I don't have venison, but I guess this is not an issue, regards Lucas. Okay. Uh okay, there are there's there's I have some guesses as how you do it. There's there's a couple of ways you can do this.
+
+[31:10] One, you could uh the simplest way, uh the kind of the most bonehead simple way, is to um make a fluid gel, like a gel-an-based fluid gel out of the stock. I know a stock already has gelatin in it, but you make a a fluid gel, right? And then you can mix the fluid gel into the mayonnaise without breaking the mayonnaise because you're not actually adding a liquid to it. You're adding a second solid that has the same consistency as the mayonnaise itself. So it shouldn't dork with the emulsion too much, right?
+
+[31:42] So you're gonna have a mayonnaise and then you're gonna fold into the mayonnaise something with the exact same texture uh as the mayonnaise, but just a fluid gel, okay? Now, uh that's one. Now, the more high-tech way to do it, okay. And if you were gonna do a the fluid gel and you're gonna do a mayonnaise, I'd say with gel and uh let's see, you could do an agar fluid gel, actually. Agar fluid gel will be easier to achieve in terms of stuff you could go out and buy at a store.
+
+[32:06] If you're gonna do an agar fluid gel, it would probably be on the order of 0.9% uh agar. Oh, oh, but agar and gelatin can cause problems sometimes. Hmm. I have to look at it, but gel and should work. But the the the real baller way to do it would be to uh take your venison stock, right, and then get an enzyme, and styles, we've got to find a source of this enzyme.
+
+[32:30] It's like one of my favorite enzymes of all time to use. It's called Coralase. So Coralase is an enzyme that breaks down gelatin. Uh and now the problem with like using, let's say, a meat tenderizer like uh papayan or one of these other things that you can buy uh a meat tenderizer. Meat tenderizer enzymes break down proteins, but they can often break down the proteins into uh bitter polypeptides, okay?
+
+[32:53] And also, I've tested it, they're not as effective as you would like in totally breaking all the gelatin down uh you know as as you want for the application I'm about to tell you. This enzyme Coralase, which breaks down gelatin, is specifically designed or specifically chosen because when it breaks down uh gelatin, it does it in a way that does not create any off-flavors at all. It creates only completely soluble, non-viscous, and tasteless polypeptides, right? So, and this stuff is a miracle. You could take cold st well, cold, I mean, if it's cold, it takes a little longer for it to work, but you could take jellied stock, drip a couple of drops in of coralase into it, and it completely melts the stock down to nothing.
+
+[33:36] So uh it has it has no more body in it, right? Once you destroy the gelatin, you can take uh that stock. You could take uh two liters of stock and reduce it down to a hundred milliliters, and then and it still will not set. It becomes you have to worry about not scorching because it has an incredibly s high solids level just from the uh you know from the from the the solids in it, but it but not gelatin. And so it allows you to get ridiculous reductions uh on that stuff, and then you can incorporate that as a liquid base into mayonnaise without having interfering effects from setting gelatin or any of these other problems or having to add too much, it's gonna break it.
+
+[34:16] And that's the way you know, when I when I had when I back when I had Coralase, when I had some of it, uh that's the way we would do like super strong beef flavored uh drinks. We would make we would break the uh or like very, very concentrated, very concentrated cold consumes that were liquid by breaking the gelatin and then hyper reducing it, and then that you know, you could then probably get a lot of flavor into a mayonnaise without having to resort to something like a fluid gel. But if you want to go out and do it tonight, I would go out and make uh a gel-an uh fluid gel with your venison stock. Uh, you know, first reduce it, make a gel and fluid gel, blend it, and then um and then fold it in. That should that should work.
+
+[34:56] What do you think, Seth? Good job. Again, she's like, I don't care. Just if he asked me, just tell him to stop talking. Hey Dave.
+
+[35:03] Yep. We've had a lot of people kind of tweeting and writing us about 3D printers and asking us to cover that. What do you know about 3D printers and food? Us meaning us or us meaning the greater us? The the greater us, this the station.
+
+[35:14] Uh well, that's an interesting question. Um so the 3D printing of food is something, you know, we we were uh, you know, a number of years ago we were, you know, dealing with uh Cornell with the Fab at home, which is uh uh basically extrusure uh an extruder, right? They were on the Rachel Ray program and we had to run over some syringes because their syringe didn't come through. We still had some syringes left over, so we we brought them over. But uh and Piper and Nastasha wanted to get uh into the studio audience.
+
+[35:45] We wanted to win a cruise. Did anyone that day win a cruise? We never saw the show. So you didn't even look to see whether or not you didn't win a cruise? So you're upset about a cruise that you may or may not have won?
+
+[35:53] Yeah. What? You don't want to know? I don't want to know. No.
+
+[35:57] You don't want to you wait, you don't want to know whether it's I would have fought harder. You take the genre, you're like, okay, here's a question before we get into the printing. So, like the question if you could take a genetic test to to know whether or not you're you're more likely to get a specific disease or not, right? Would you take it? Answer yes, because then you can prevent or do something.
+
+[36:13] So you want to know like the your possible future genetically, but you don't want to know whether or not the cruise was an actual issue? I would have fought harder. Like I paid for this genetic testing. I paid, you know, like I'm doing everything I can. I didn't do everything I could for the Rachel Ray show, possible cruise.
+
+[36:27] So I don't want to know if I could have won. Because you don't want to know that like possible personal weakness cause you to not get a cruise. Right. Fair. Thank you.
+
+[36:34] Fair. Uh so uh back to 3D printing. So we were getting this uh 3D printer uh to work with, and you know, they they the the the the goal, people have this thing in in their heads, and there was a New York Times article on it very recently on printing 3D food. And the goal out there is that somehow, you know, you're gonna print your table and then you're gonna print your your plate and then you're gonna print your food, and then you're just gonna sit down and someone's gonna email you this awesome recipe and it's gonna print out like along with everything. And uh I've never been a fan of this idea ever.
+
+[37:08] I've always thought it was kind of you know not um not what I think cooking is about and not what I think food is about. I think the idea of 3D printing uh architectural units is very interesting because it allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise do. The I the idea of 3D and we use 3D printers when we're designing equipment at Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation. We use 3D printers and we use 3D printing sources to do rapid prototypes. But food isn't about prototyping or about you know short runs of uh something like a facade for an architectural building that you can then create a concrete with a 3D printer in a way you couldn't otherwise do food is about the day in day out creation of something that um that you want to eat and in general like the 3D food technology that's out there right now is all about extruding paste and then setting that paste into something else and there's only so you know so far you can go with the extrusion of different types of paste.
+
+[38:08] I mean it's hard to get all the different textures you want uh hard to get all the different flavors you want I mean it's not I mean if someday they could you know scan a steak and then reproduce it exactly then I don't know maybe but it's just not what I think about when I think of food. I like to think about my food being uh produced I like to think about it growing or being raised I like to think about how it's harvested how it's treated, and none of these things as yet are reducible to pushing a button and printing it out and like not even close. I'm not saying that that won't happen someday, but it's not even in the realm. It's not even in the it's not even in the sphere of what's going on right now. Literally, what's going on right now is paste is being extruded out of tubes into shapes.
+
+[38:51] So it's the it's it's it's like, hey, look, the applications, the the brain dead, what you need applications. Do you want uh uh your scallop paste to look like Mickey Mouse or a space shuttle, or do you want like you know, your boyfriend's head, you know, in hot dog meat. If you want your boyfriend's head in hot dog meat, either to chop it to pieces with a samurai sword or to you know lovingly munch on it, then 3D printing, fantastic. You know what I mean? Because it is great at at reconstructing your boyfriend's head out of hot dog meat.
+
+[39:23] Fantastic at it. There's no better way because unless you're gonna hire an artist to make uh a sculpture, or unless you're gonna mold your boyfriend's head and then jam hot dog meat into it to make a uh a boyfriend uh hot dog head, you know. And by the way, uh, you know, that's assuming that you can stand a skinless wiener because you know I I prefer Frankfurter with a real skin on it. You know what I'm saying? Stas is making some weird faces now.
+
+[39:45] But the uh, because her mind works in in in gross ways. Boyfriend hot dog head face. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Oh, wiener face, oh geez.
+
+[39:54] Uh so the uh by the way, like that. I wish you could, I wish you could put this out there for everyone to know because I'm so sick of you getting these questions about 3D printing. Like we're gonna eat some phenomenal food out of a 3D printer. Which we're not. It's paste.
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+[40:08] It's paste. It's paste. Wow, I love Nastasha finally coming out of it. That's like the first time in three years, I think. So we've been doing this, you know, for four years, I think now.
+
+[40:18] Yeah. Yeah. And nobody has said that it's paste. It's paste. Yeah.
+
+[40:23] Yeah. Paste. And so like, here here's the thing. Here's the thing, right? So we did come up with one thing we liked, which was, you know, what is a novel thing you can do with a 3D printer uh with paste that is hard to otherwise do.
+
+[40:39] And it was this idea that uh, you know, uh Lipton came up with is with the stochastic printing where it's basic where you use you you hold the toothpaste tube, it's not toothpaste tube, but you hold the syringe up high and you let it form a squiggle almost like velcro, and you get these kind of masa squiggles that you know are you know that have they're good because you can fry them and the texture is different from what you would ordinarily get with masa, right? And so I always said that from very get-go. It's like I don't really want to use it unless there's some sort of new uh new texture we can produce or new flavor we can produce with paste. But uh uh another interesting fact, someone uh tweeted in uh maybe it was a couple weeks ago about this. You've you ever heard of you heard of this Beyond Eggs thing?
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+[41:22] No. No? So there's this product out there, and it was funded in part by Gates, it's some kind of silicone valley thing where it's a completely non-eg. It's all plant-based, and it fooled Bill Gates into like to say, oh, it's well, it's just as good as a real egg because it fooled Bill Gates. Now the qu I need to try this myself.
+
+[41:41] Please, someone from California, if you can find a Whole Foods thing, we we love at Booker and Dax to have a sample of Beyond Eggs to see whether or not it's just that Bill Gates has horrible taste buds for eggs or whether or not they were just overcooked or whatever, but apparently, Stas, you can make scrambled eggs out of these, it tastes l like the real legit deal. Since when's Bill Gates like the standard by which we judge these things? That's crazy. Well, because he's got the money to back it up. I see.
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+[42:07] Oh, color, you're on the air. Yeah, hi. I have a s uh sort of a two-part question about live poultry, live poultry markets. Um I recently uh bought a chicken at a live poultry market. It was a label roused chicken, so I think it was by the standards, it's supposed to be somewhat older than the the normal commercial breed.
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+[42:27] And I was just curious if there's just a different approach to d to dealing with live poultry. I'll tell you what I did with it. It was just a standard chicken roasting tech technique. But I after buying it, I assaulted it and then I had read on on the turkey post on cooking issues of the the rigor mortis. So I think I let it sit for about twenty-four hours in the fridge after it had been fairly heavily salted, and then I used the low temperature roasting at about 150 um for about you know two and a half hours to bring it up to about 135 and then finished it in a hot oven after resting to crisp it's crisp it up.
+
+[43:06] I think the the texture was actually a lot chewyer than I expected. And I didn't know if this was was r related to the age of the chicken or cooking techniques with somebody that's been that recently killed, or if you have any thoughts here on on the approach. Well, old old chick old chickens, I mean if it actually is old, like old chickens are they taste better, but they are never gonna be as tender as a young chicken, you know, never. And you know, so that's like you you know, when you go to, you know, other countries that you know, as their standard chicken and things like stews and whatnot have older uh older birds, they're just not tender. And you just have to like kind of get past the American ideal that chicken is supposed to be tender.
+
+[43:52] Now that said, uh when you c now we've when you before you cooked it, did you grab the legs and move them around? Had they had they loosened up? Had they limbered? You know, I cut off the legs w right when I got it home. So um but just I mean the the the feet, sorry.
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+[44:10] I think I I they wouldn't feel but the legs it didn't feel any any any different than I I'm used to. And most of the poultry I buy is in in Chinatown markets that presumably is you know somewhat more recently killed than stuff you have in the supermarket, but I'm not I'm not you know it didn't feel any different to me in that respect. Right. I mean I've purchased uh I've purchased poultry at the live market and then let it rest overnight and had it be tough as nails, right? On things like duck.
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+[44:40] But I think a lot was the you know, also the breed of duck that I uh I was getting. Um and you know, my the main reason I go to live poultry now isn't for chickens because I'll just get that there there are you know suppliers that I like and trust that have good chickens, but I'll go for the turkeys um, especially before I had the good contacts here at Heritage Foods, I would go for the turkeys um to get them, and I would let them rest a couple of days probably. Although, you know, supposedly overnight, but like uh you know, I I think it's probably a combination. I think maybe you could have gone a little bit longer. Um I also don't know, and this is an interesting question, uh I don't know the effects of salting during rigor as opposed to salting after rigor.
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+[45:25] I don't know, I have no idea. Like literally uh literally I have no concept of the this this this place has a uh buy ten chickens, get one free, so it sort of encourages you to do these sort of side by side experiments. Uh um the second question is is just related to the the the killing method. I was just was also reading about the Ikajime and I was just wondering has anyone done this sort of cr uh um flesh comparison with different chicken killing methods. I I I'm I I should I should should back up to say too I'm just looking at a Wikipedia entry for Mike the Headless Chicken and there was this chicken that in the 40s uh was decapitated but somehow survived for years.
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+[46:06] So it was reminding me of reading about Ikojima and wondering if you know there's there's there's a comparative uh study of of of killing methods on on on poultry. There's not to my knowledge. I am familiar with Mike the headless chicken which interesting story the guy chopped the head uh well thought he chopped the head off of the uh chicken, let it run around like a chicken with its head cut off, and then came back and the sucker was still moving like a long time later and then it turns out that he had left a certain portion of the brain stem in and he had would feed Mike by shoving shoving uh grain into its you know into its like open throat hole and the sucker lived for a while Mike the headless chicken so that basic you know what what started as an incompetent slaughter made this farmer like a good chunk of change. You can go but they you know what's disappointing about Mike the Headless Chicken is that there's no really really good photos of Mike the headless chicken, right? Yeah you notice that it's like there's some but there's nothing like no close ups of where the head used to whatever it's hard to tell from from the photo where how exactly it was decapitated.
+
+[47:12] Yeah I think the guy hit it at an angle because like you can see it's like a little bit higher up in the back, and like that's what allowed the portion of the brain stem that controls kind of the heart regulation and peristalsis in the system to keep going. But uh back to the actual question. I don't think that the studies have been um done on on that. It's been a long time since I've read up on um poultry slaughter. Most of the data out there on most animals shows that um uh pre-slaughter stress is bad for meat quality.
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+[47:39] But I've read more stuff on for you know, obviously in in pork it's a huge issue with pig slaughter and um cows, and I've obviously done a lot of work with fish on that. But the specific reasons why um fish tastes or i is has better texture as a result of the specialized um killing techniques is because hard rigor in a fish uh leads to c mushy uh fillets and to into bad texture, especially for um you know sushi sashimi applications. So I don't know uh, you know, whether I don't know what the effects are of, for instance, preserving the ATP reserves of chicken muscle. Now, you know, aside from that, you you know, there's probably all sorts of you know uh awful things that get injected into a chicken system if it's freaked out right before it gets um slaughtered, right? So there's certain things going on and you know, if for a number of years I have had in my head um different tests to be able to do on this, but it it gets it gets dicey when when you're doing slaughter tests on fish, people don't seem to mind as soon as you move to uh you know higher creatures like bird well what perceived higher creatures like birds, or even you know, God forbid, into the range of mammals that are eaten for food.
+
+[49:00] People people um people look at any sort of uh experiments like that as being somehow like horrible and when in fact you're just trying to make it more humane. You're just trying to do better. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think I think the the certified humane stuff that they they sell in in supermarkets they use they they knock them out first. I didn't I didn't have time to to look it up extensively.
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+[49:24] But you know that would definitely be different from a live poultry market where I think they're they're bleeding it out through the through the neck which you know not chopping its head off. Well I mean every lot every time I've been to the live poultry market what they do is they take especially big birds, they tie them by the feet and let them hang upside down alive, flapping freaked out to figure out how much they weigh then they take the bird, you know put it down, chop its head off and go. I mean that's pretty much that's you know that's how and I and I think that's pretty much you know the de regur method of doing it. Like uh and so yeah they're not doing any uh I mean at least the places I've been I you know I didn't see any electrostunning equipment let's put it that way. Um you know whereas I think it could probably commercially electrostunning is the is the way to go on uh on on chicken slaughter.
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+[50:11] Did you see any electrostunning w where you were I don't think that they do that at the at the live poultry joints. No this this place I think it was I got the head on too so it was Chinese style but I think they do all they much of their business is halal so I don't know the details of halal slaughter but it seemed to be that that that a lot of their meat was default halal unless you know you had some special method just because so much of their customer base was what were were were people seeking halal meat. Right. So that would and I think that's that that that is bleeding bleeding it out to the neck. So which sounds especially cruel now that I think about it well yeah, so if halal I mean I I uh I've never done a as much as I should research on halal techniques, but if my memory serves, kosher slaughter techniques would dictate that the animal is conscious, right?
+
+[50:56] To prove that it's all intact and everything, and then humanely slaughtered with a cli quick slice to the throat, which would mean that there is no stunning involved. 'Cause that would compromise the animal prior to the slaughter. So um my guess would be that yeah, there's no form of stunning involved there. Yeah, and then uh then f finally, I was just uh y with with uh Chinese dishes when you see fresh killed chicken and I think some Korean restaurants are you know, they're advertising this too. Do you think that that is is is pre-rigor flesh that they can actually 'cause uh apparently the place that I went to, which is in Bensonhurst supplies one of the places in in midtown, but I was thinking that, you know, the sub the it's it sets within it's within several hours, right?
+
+[51:40] So you you're s you is that texture actually a chicken in rigor or is it pre rigor or do you have any idea? No, I mean but that'd be super interesting, right? Just get the get the chicken, rush home and cook it right away. Uh you know, get you know, uh the the the interesting one would be to go in the morning, get a chicken, right, put it in your fridge, uh go in the evening, get the chicken, rush home or get you know, and then do one maybe the day before, two days before, and then like cook 'em all three at the same time, side by side in the same oven and test them out. That'd be fascinating.
+
+[52:14] Yeah, yeah. I might I might try that 'cause now now I'm curious, especially with salting as well. Because there's there's there's some way. I feel like the texture might change pretty radically by, you know, different different times and different uh salting just in that, you know, twenty twelve to you know, forty eight hours if you if you you did twelve hour intervals. Yeah, well, if you do it, please, you know, write write right in to us or you know, uh t let us know what's going on, 'cause this is the kind of information that uh we crave.
+
+[52:41] Okay, yeah, I'll certainly do it. I'll let you know. Thanks very much. All right, thank you. Peter Cook wrote in at cooking issues, what are your favorite uses for fish sauce?
+
+[52:50] And are there any good substitutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring? I like fish sauce in almost everything. Stas, you a fish sauce fan? Uh huh. Yeah, I love myself some fish sauce.
+
+[52:59] Um, so I mean, let's say you have someone it's just delicious. I mean, soups, delicious with fish sauce. Um I don't mean uh I it's you know it's one of those things that I would add to many things. Like uh let's say someone doesn't eat meat but they eat fish, right? Fish sauce, I put fish sauce in everything.
+
+[53:18] I also like anchovies a lot. I will throw anchovies into almost uh almost anything. Uh I really like salty uh fish flavored things. So it's like hard for me to say. You know, it's hard for me to say what my favorite is because I just like them so much.
+
+[53:33] Now now what I what I would recommend you do with fish sauce is there's no such thing as one as one fish sauce. Like my favorite brand that you can get kind of around is uh Tipperose. I like that one a lot. I think that one's from Thailand. But um go out and source yourself some like really interesting uh fish sauces uh like um ishiri from uh from uh Japan.
+
+[53:57] Um it's not really fish sauce, but go get some colatura anyway from Italy. That's good. Do you like that stuff? Like the anchovy juice? Yeah, it's good.
+
+[54:04] Uh so I don't know. Now, any good substitutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring. Now, nothing adds alcohol flavor quite like alcohol does, but for deglazing, really, you don't have to use uh alcohol. In fact, a lot of times the only real um the only real thing you need to have for a deglazing liquid is that it can't have so many solids in it that it scorches on the pan. You're using it to break the solids off of the pan and then reduce.
+
+[54:28] So anything that's flavorful that's not going to scorch during the uh time that you're deglazing, you can use it and often you're deglazing with uh you know with water or you know, if you're making you know good gravy or something something else. But the reason you add the alcohol first when you deglaze is so that you have more opportunity to uh cook the alcohol out before you add the bulk of your uh liquid. I mean, I think that's the reason why people add alcohol first and they're deglazing, not because it needs to be alcoholic. In other words, I don't think they're using the properties of the alcohol to dissolve the stuff on the bottom of the pan, if that makes sense. Does that make sense to us?
+
+[55:00] Okay. Uh this is a great name because I can't pronounce it. It's G with O with an O Umlaut R-A-N. So I'm gonna call it Gurin, Elden, Gurren. What do you think?
+
+[55:09] Gurren, I'm gonna go with Gurren. Uh cooking issues. I often use canola oil for frying. Good or bad. Many people use a lot of olive oil.
+
+[55:16] Isn't that a bad choice for hot applications? All right. Uh Gurren, here's the deal. Uh olive oil is not bad for hot applications. However, you aren't getting any awesome taste benefit if you heat the olive oil too much.
+
+[55:29] And we talked about this a while, I think maybe like a year ago or six months ago, uh, where we did a bunch, someone called in and we talked to McGee about it. We did some side-by-side taste tests of eggs cooked in in olive oil. And uh and Mark Ladner was here that day. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[55:42] And we were tasting eggs. Remember, we're tasting eggs? And um it turns out that it's fine. Uh cooking with uh olive oil is fine, but you know, all the awesome fruity notes and kind of the varietal characteristics and all the things you love about the taste of olive oil are wiped out by the cooking. It's not bad from uh uh a technical standpoint.
+
+[56:01] Now, um, though, anyway, so that's that. Uh now the other problem is is that a lot of olive oils will degrade quickly if you're frying, and so they're not a good choice for frying long term, or if you're frying a lot of stuff, or if you're gonna have a lot of particles sitting around in it. Uh, because um depending on which kind you get and what's going on, the smoke point can lower faster than some other oils. All right. Now, as whether canola oil is good or bad, um, I used to hate canola oil, hated it, hated it, really hated it.
+
+[56:29] Like in the 90s, like I hated it so much because the stuff that you would buy that was cheap just hadn't been properly deodorized, and so it tasted wretched, awful. But the canola oils that I've tried recently, and it took me many years to uh after I had done some initial frying tests with canola oil in the nineties, uh it took me many, many years. I talk in the early nineties too, like ninety-two, you know, nine ninety-two, ninety-three. It took me many years to go try canola oil. In fact, for you know, a decade or so, I was like, hell with canola oil, crap on it.
+
+[57:00] I don't care, it could be the healthiest thing on earth, it could save my life. I'm not going to use it for frying. And then uh I tried it again, you know, uh sometime in the 2000s, and I think they fixed that problem at the average deodorization of the canola oil is fine. Now, canola oil, canola is not a plant. Canola uh is a contraction, I think, of Canada and oil because it was originally developed up there from a variety of rape seed.
+
+[57:21] Talk about a crap name for a product. Uh rapeseed is from the mustard uh family, and so they developed a variety of rapeseed that had was particularly low in uh I don't even know how to pronounce it, but like uh Russic or the the the stuff that that that the the unsaturated fatty acid that's in uh mustard oil, which if you have it in large quantities, some people say it's bad for you, which is why you can't get the real deal mustard oil here in the U.S. easily unless it's labeled not for consumption, even though the studies are crap. So, anyway, so people are worried about that. But the canola oil that's out there has very low, less than two percent uh of that fatty acid in it, and so there's nothing out there that shows that that is a health problem.
+
+[58:01] There's some studies I couldn't read them because my internet was crapping out on me that the uh that that certain trans pufas that's awesome, trans poofa, polyunsaturated fatty acids, trans pufas are formed during the deodorization process. That I can't attest to because unfortunately I couldn't get to the data with my internet this morning. Uh but I don't have anything out there that says that um that I believe that I trust that says that the stuff is uh bad for you uh in any sense, and I know a lot of people say it's good for you. I don't believe that either, but uh I can say that I no longer believe that it tastes like crap, and it's probably good for frying because I believe the smoke point is fairly high. On the way out, because they're gonna kick me out of here.
+
+[58:43] I forgot last week to give a shout out to May May in Boston, uh May May Food Truck, and I guess uh I don't know if whether the kitchen, the non-food truck thing is is open yet, but they came to um the talk that we gave. You know, the whole crew came to the talk that we gave with uh with McGee, and then um you know I want to spend some time with them afterwards talking to them, and you know, I set off the freaking fire alarm, and so we got cleared out of the building, and you guys gave me a uh a set of pastries. You said this is the best pastry in all of uh all of Boston, and it got lost in the shuffle. So I didn't eat the f the pastry. It's horrible.
+
+[59:19] But I did get from those guys uh two bottles of liquor from Boston, and I really appreciate bringing kind of Boston uh, you know, Boston local products for me to taste when I'm in Boston or in Cambridge in this case. Although you didn't bring any of your own stuff, so next time I go up there, I want to try your own stuff. But they did bring two things: Grand 10, which is in uh Boston, distilling, Grand 10 distilling, angelica liqueur, which is like uh an angelica liqueur made in Boston, which we enjoyed. We might work that into a cocktail. Do you like did you try that one, Stuy?
+
+[59:46] Yeah, it's good. And, and this is what I'm gonna go out on, uh, Bully Boy Rum, which is uh Boston rum, and for those of you that don't know, uh Boston, Medford actually specifically, you know, if you're into the whole Medford thing, known back in the day, pre-prohibition for being a center of rum uh distillation since before the American Revolution. In fact, Paul Revere famously, as he's riding uh down the uh, you know, trying to warn, you know, I guess that the British were coming. Although that's a bunch of hocum. There's actually, you know, Revere, like got his horse taken from him, like, you know, like when he was in, I think Lexington, got his horse taken from him, and ended up sitting the rest of the night out.
+
+[1:00:24] And it was another dude that uh that didn't get caught, you know, that escaped with his horse that kept on riding out. The real freaking hero of the day, Paul Revere, you know, got caught, and yet they write the poem about Paul Revere because I can't I can't even remember the other guy's name, but apparently, you know, not so good for poetry. So Revere gets all the props, right? But anyway, so on the way out to get captured by the British and not really warn very many people because he got captured, you know, fairly early on in the thing. He uh so I'm gonna get some crap about that, I know I am.
+
+[1:00:54] He uh takes famously takes a swill of Medford rum, which was supposedly pretty good, and um, and you read about this in Wayne Curtis's book on rum, uh, and they reenact that to this day. People will ride fake ride past there, and they'll take a swig of rum, but no longer from Medford. And I'm hoping that the Medford ride people are now using the bully boy rum. We enjoy it. Now, one last thing about uh Medford and Boston and rum.
+
+[1:01:17] The Boston rum was produced from molasses, because guess what they can't grow in Boston? You guessed it. Sugar cane. They can't grow it. So they would take the molasses and they would ship it up there.
+
+[1:01:25] And so there were lots of stockpiles of molasses in Boston prior to Prohibition. And just prior to Prohibition, one of my favorite history crazy facts happened. Just prior to Prohibition, even though it wasn't actually for uh rum that it was, it was for industrial alcohol. So in 1919, a giant tank, like imagine, you know those those giant tanks of fuel that you see in Elizabeth, New Jersey as you're driving down the turnpike, those big kind of fuel tank stars, you know what I'm talking about? Imagine it filled with molasses.
+
+[1:01:57] All of a sudden, these people on the street, and there's like a like an elevated train, there's horses, there's all this 1919. They hear bing, bing, ping, boop, and all of a sudden, a 15-foot-high wall of molasses running 35 mile an hour, right? Exerting a pressure, according to one thing I read, of two tons per square foot, right? And just smacks into you. It knocked down like railroad cars, like horses just got in molasses, and like a bunch of people died.
+
+[1:02:24] A bunch of horses died, and a bunch of people died. Uh and can you imagine anything worse? You're drowning in molasses. You get smacked down tackled by molasses, and then you drown in molasses in Boston. And the and the story was that for decades, even into the 70s when I was a kid, which was I first read about it in Smithsonian Magazine, I can remember to this day reading about it because one of my great aunts from Medford, you know, these my stepfather had these like three maiden aunts who never got married and they're born.
+
+[1:02:50] Anyway, so I said they remembered it. They remembered it. Uh and uh and into the 70s, the streets of m of Boston when it got hot out still smelled like molasses in the area where the uh flood was. Uh cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org.
+
+[1:03:14] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Mood Magazine, a new international quarterly publication about music and food. For more information, visit Mood Music Food.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:31] It's Dave Morgan, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Tuesday, every Tuesday at 12. Well, not if we weren't here last week because we were embarrassing ourselves at Starchef's. Boom! Anyway, today we're here at Roberta's Peter in Bushwick, Brooklyn with Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, and as usual, Stas the Hammer Lopez here in the studio. How you guys doing?
+
+[0:50] Good. Good. I just told Nastasia I ran into Indy Jesus in the street. What'd you say? You say hey, Indy Jesus.
+
+[0:56] I didn't call him that, no. I said hey Dante. Oh, uh well. You didn't like have a glass of water and try to turn it to wine, anything awesome like that. Next time.
+
+[1:04] Next time. He's not here anymore, though. He left? He's gone. That's it.
+
+[1:10] All right, all right. So listen. Today we have a very special. Are they both gonna be on or is or is just one? Both.
+
+[1:17] Sweet. Both here? Sweet. We have uh we have the the you know, what do you call it? The the the unique group, ideas and food.
+
+[1:28] Um uh Aki Kamazawa and uh Alex Talbot, uh, you know, the kind of like the how you call them, the O the OG new tech food folk on the on the on the line on the internet, and they're they're today have released a new book called Maximum Flavor. Maximum. Recipes that will change the way you cook. Uh and if you go and order that thing right now, today's the first day, you can have a shiny fresh copy uh on your doorstep tomorrow, or if you still live in a place where there are real bookstores, you could probably go buy it right now. Uh welcome guys.
+
+[2:03] What's going on? What's going on with you? Uh it's good to chat. Yeah, so uh why don't you guys uh you know oh by the way, you can call in your questions to uh the ideas and food crew or us if you have any questions, you know, for for us shlumpy folks over here. Uh to 7184972128, that's 7184972128.
+
+[2:20] Before we start with uh some of the questions, I'm gonna actually one of them references you, so I'll hit you with that later. But um why don't you tell us a little bit about the book? I mean one thing I noticed when I looked at this book as opposed to the first book is this is a full color extravaganza of a book. Novel idea, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:36] So yeah, so why don't you talk about uh talk about it for a minute? Oh okay. Well decided that we needed to have photographs in this book because every time anyone opened the other book, they looked at us and went, Where are the pictures? Yeah. People are so people are so visual, the weasels, the weasels.
+
+[2:55] Well, what's what's really interesting, uh you know, from uh I guess from an outside perspective is that for um you know, for many years your blog was known uh for you know having being very photo heavy, having a lot of photos. So I guess it probably just was a surprise to people to see something come out that wasn't that way. Do you know what I'm saying? Certainly. I mean the the first book, the first book is really a handbook for the kitchen.
+
+[3:18] Um and without without pictures, people are gonna look, you know, we're looking for you know, what what's it supposed to look like? My am I on the right path? Uh and I think that's probably the the big the biggest hiccup we came across with ideas and food. Uh the book. Uh so this one we we we wanted to uh face that front on and and photograph the bejesus out of it.
+
+[3:40] And there's supposed to be only I think seventy five pictures in it, and I think we have probably double that. Yeah, no, it's it really helps tell the story. And it's like you know it's all all big color splashy stuff. I leaf through it. It looks great.
+
+[3:51] I didn't get a chance to read it because uh I saw you right before my ill-fated Starchefs demonstration uh which is where we you know where the cooking issues crew was last week instead of doing our real job of being here on the radio we were at Starchefs uh having things not go our way uh but uh you know uh that aside I got to flip through it it looks great I can't wait to get uh a hold of a copy but uh but it's true it's I looked at it this morning on Amazon and I don't are you guys pro Amazon or anti-Amazon or do you not want to come out for or against on the on you know in public. Yeah well no we we used to live in Colorado in the mountains in the middle of nowhere and we could not have gotten any books there if it were not for Amazon. So while we are pro indie bookstores we are also pro Amazon. Sometimes we just can't get things any other way. Alright and then you want to give a pitch for like if they already own the first book like what you know why should they go get this it's all new all different correct all new all different totally different um the the first book as we said was was one that it is is the house and wise it is the it is you know the the the the thing the reference material that you'll need and then recipes that support it.
+
+[5:02] Whereas this is recipes that you really want to eat there's a lot of information jammed into each one and then it's a lot of things to uh to really then extrapolate from so you know it's a great jumping off point, and then it's also just a great eating point. Alright, and for people, you know, who aren't necessarily super tech or equipment savvy, although I guess you know a lot of people who listen here are, like, there's still going to be a lot in for them, correct? There's fun. I think the whole point of this as we talk over each other. The the whole point of this book was we had a lot of fun with it, and the science is still there, but it's almost hidden.
+
+[5:41] So it's kind of scattered through the recipes and it's in the head notes and it's layered more into stories as opposed to the first book where the science was kind of front and center, and the recipes are behind that. Here we were more about like really, really delicious food and then explaining how we did it. Sweet. Well secondly, I can't wait to get uh a copy of it. I'm sure it's gonna do well.
+
+[6:02] Why don't we answer some questions for the folks? Uh we have we get writing questions beforehand. I have a little bit of a of an advantage over you guys that I got the questions this morning, so you know, I had a chance to look at it. But no, but that's it. We're we're all we'll all go for it here, okay?
+
+[6:15] So uh Aaron Will writes in. He said, Recently we've been making shrimp stock at our restaurant, Scratch. Uh and we've uh noticed that unfortunately when we let the stock come to a full boil, a stable form uh foam would form uh and it would boil over vigorously. This obviously has never happened to a fish, poultry, or land mammal stock that I've ever made before. And this leads me to hypothesize that there is some sort of stabilizer in the shrimp meat or shells that would cause this foam to form.
+
+[6:40] If there is, could there be a way to use this in an advantageous manner to suit the needs of somebody or some entity? Uh also I never got to thank you for giving us a shout out on the show a while back. Can't wait to get some mofad gear and represent Aaron Will. Well, I mean, I'll just put my two cents in really quickly. One thing I need to know beforehand on the foaming, I mean, is you guys, as anyone knows, if you cook uh whole uh crustaceans, especially things like lobsters, they foam like demons.
+
+[7:04] Uh and i'm the humolence. Yeah, right. Yeah, come I mean, it's my my presumption, right? So I would assume that you wouldn't get that much foaming for uh if you were buying headless shrimp do you know what I mean? But if you were buying whole body shrimp I would assume that you could get some decent foaming out of it because there's lots of um I'm reminded of a very old uh like uh dual language Chinese American cookbook that I have that one of the recipes uh calls for like foaming egg whites by hand and then putting it in front of the cooked crab on the plate and it's and it's called for crab spittle effect in English translation crab spittle effect.
+
+[7:43] And so you know it's right I mean it's it's well known that there's all kinds of protonaceous crap that you know sea creatures uh produce especially crustaceans. In fact when you have uh you know animals that produce uh waste nitrogenous products constantly in aquarium tanks you have protein skimmers to remove them because otherwise and the way that they work is by foaming the protein stuff that's there. So my guess is is that there's some sort of uh protein crap there that comes out the only other guess I have is that some of the you know the shrimp shells are made of a product called chitin which is one of the most common biopolymers in the world and it's um it's a nitrogen containing um kind of poly polysaccharide like thing uh that you know I use the broken down form of it called chitusan for um for clarification and and other things but that stuff foams so maybe you're getting some of that too. You guys ever had any any issue with uh this stock or anything to say on crustacean stocks uh I mean whole whole shrimp shells stock certainly foam same with lobster, but we do everything now in the pressure cooker, so for the most part, we're not getting any of that that boil. Uh and and we're doing it, you know, again, real fast to concentrate the flavor.
+
+[8:56] And again, the fresh cooker keeps the uh the foam, I would say, at bay. Um Right. I mean, you know, the thing also, uh as opposed to shrimp, let's let's just not on the not on topic really, but shrimp as opposed to lobster. So I think like you know, one of the common problems with uh I mean, shrimp shell, there's like uh look, an American like a a shrimp shell that we get from a farmed shrimp, like even if you cook the hell out of it, like there's only so much crap that's there, right? If you're just using the shell and not the head and all that stuff in terms of I mean it's so paper thin usually, and there's not much.
+
+[9:26] So I don't really find a lot of problems, not not foaming problems, taste problems. But I do find, and I'm curious about pressure cooking since I haven't pressure cooked this one. If you were to pressure cook like a hard shell lobster, you know how when you overcook a lobster stock to make a bisque, it gets the only thing I don't really know what it is 'cause I've never analyzed it, but what I consider to be kind of like a a shell taste, almost like a calcium-y taste to it. You ever notice that? It's it's funny you mention that.
+
+[9:52] We uh we haven't gotten it that way because all we use is the heads. So we just take the insides. Oh yeah, there you go. Because when you when you make when you're doing like, you know, uh an oil infusion or if you're making a stock of like from straight shells on lobster, like it's like good good up you roast them, right? And then you cook 'em up to a point, and then when you over extract them, you're like, this crap's done.
+
+[10:14] You know what I mean? It's like shells. Yeah, it tastes like shells. Yeah. Well, that's the but I mean, uh if you're making a shell oil, it it's it's great.
+
+[10:21] But if you're making lobster oil, you probably just want to use the you know, the the head part. Yeah, yeah. So back to your question, Aaron, they're well known that there are proteins in there. Uh try the pressure cooker. Um do you guys believe my story that your pressure cooker shouldn't vent or no?
+
+[10:36] I still believe it very very wholeheartedly. You don't want it to vent. Why why would you vent it? No, no, I mean, in other words, like I believe that the pressure cookers that constantly vent to regulate their pressure produce a lower quality stock than ones like the Coon Recon that don't, even though I just had terrible experience with a coon recon exploding in my kitchen. It was freaking nightmare.
+
+[10:55] Really? You haven't exploded? Well, here's what happens. There's a you know how like you know how you know how I'm lazy? You know me, I'm lazy.
+
+[11:03] So, like, you know, the the gas the gaskets deteriorate over time because they're silicone, they deteriorate, and um and so you know uh it's my personal pressure cooker. I brought into work because I needed to do something, and I'm you know, every day I'm like, oh I'll repr I'll replace the gaskets, I'll replace it, you know, next time I'll replace it next time, next time. And there's a little there's a little secondary pressure uh relief on the top of the pan next to the valve. And uh the silicone there wasn't sealing properly, so it was always spitting out a little steam. So Piper who works with me is like, hey Dave, it's steaming.
+
+[11:34] Don't you say that ruins the flavor this time? I'm like, all right. So I go over there to start fiddling with it, right? And then and then I'm trying to set the damn thing. So I think maybe there's like some grit in it or something.
+
+[11:43] So I'm trying to set it. I take a uh uh a butter knife, the back end of a butter knife, and I go pap pap on the top of the thing to seal it, and I blew it through the lid of the uh of the thing. Now this sucker was full, three quarters full of rendering like full chicken with the fat in it and everything, stock, at 15 PSI. Like I'm talking like uh like like five liters of chicken six liters of chicken stock at fifteen psi, and I all of a sudden I punch a quarter inch hole through it, and it was like old faithful. It's like a freaking geyser.
+
+[12:16] It flies up, hits the ceiling, chicken fat, like everywhere, and you know, Piper runs up, he's gonna put a uh a towel over I'm like Piper Man. That's like, you know, that's like whatever, urinating in the ocean to raise the tide. Like you're we're done here. And like, so we just have to sit there for a minute watching the damn pressure cooker vent chicken fat and chicken stock all over the entire lab coated with a fine mist of chicken products. My dog loved it.
+
+[12:42] The dog thought it was fantastic. Uh I I have since replaced the gaskets. Uh so anyway, okay. Uh next So it wasn't the pressure cooker that failed, it was more of a user error. Yeah, I'd have to go say I'd have to go user error with that.
+
+[12:56] Uh yeah. I mean, first of all, like, you know, just a note to Vene out there, you know, regularly replace the uh rubber parts in your uh in your pressure cooker because they do uh lose their ability to seal over over time. This is you know, this is not the first time I've had issues like this. Uh, you know, the main gasket around the around the rim. I'm always late in replacing that one.
+
+[13:17] And uh modern pressure cookers have a safety override where um if you look at the lid of a of a modern pressure cooker, there are uh there are gaps cut into it. And the reason those are there is so that if you build up too much pressure, it will literally extrude the main ceiling gasket out of these holes and then vent out of the thing. But if you don't replace your gasket, they just extrude under normal 15 psi pressures. I uh, you know, as Bell uh raised back, you know, at Starships when he was doing this stuff, I vented twice in one day coffee, pressure cooking coffee rye beans, uh rye berries, all over his Chef White's twice because I didn't replace the freaking gasket. Uh nice.
+
+[13:58] Yeah, okay. A little too much information for the folks out there. Alright, next question. Uh Johnny writes in about uh about fermentation and about beans. And uh I don't really have an answer for the beans, so I'm hoping you you will.
+
+[14:09] Um he goes, uh thanks for the egg advice a few shows back, cracking them on a flat surface, Jacques Papin style has reduced the amount of shell in my scrambled eggs. Uh I now have some questions about lacto fermenting vegetables and fruit lately. I've been getting some really kick-ass results. Well, kick butt will say kick butt results with simple countertop uh countertop ferments. Uh I did some experimenting and found that even crappy, low-quality, flavorless tomatoes, both canned and fresh, become delicious with some bubbling on the counter, uh fermenting bubbling.
+
+[14:36] Uh also puree chilies with a bit of salt left to ferment, turn into a dynamite hot sauce. That's true. And my underwhelming sauerkraut tastes delicious, fried up with some potatoes. Although there's no reason for sauerkraut to be underwhelming because sauerkraut's inherently delicious. Anyway.
+
+[15:16] Anyway, uh not so sure what ingredients or dishes it'd be good with or added to. Any ideas? Do you have any favorite lacto ferments? Uh well, sauerkraut actually literally is mine, but boring as that is. Um, can you uh use them like stocks?
+
+[15:28] Uh can you use them like stock, or does the acidity totally change? How do you uh how do you think about using them as an ingredient? Alright, so um I'm gonna it's a long, yeah, it's alright, complicated, but I'm gonna let you weigh in. The corn, by the way, uh I you know right now when anyone asks me a fermentation question, I literally just pick up my my copy of uh The Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz and just see what because the research in that is so thorough that you know I just yeah, there's no reason to reinvent the wheels sometimes. I just go because I'm sure he's researched it.
+
+[15:57] And in fact, he found um I don't know her personally but uh April McGregor has a a website called Farmer's Daughter and she doesn't sell those uh on the website but she sells uh fermented corn uh in her stand in North Carolina and she's like yeah they get really sour. Presumably you're using sweet corn sweet corn has a lot of sugar it will ferment very quickly and make very sour results. Um but as for salt you know that and I'm gonna let you guys w weigh in here because it's people ask me this all the time and I always say the same thing. You can do ferments without salt. The problem is that they're not can they're not going to be uh consistent and you know i the the short answer is that tastes good well yeah I mean look like uh you know McGee was telling me that there's these crazy amaranth ferments in China that's that smell like like the worst smell in the world but people you know eat it without dying.
+
+[16:47] You know um my feeling is is that it you know if it gets sour you're probably safe and if it doesn't get sour you're probably not gonna want to eat it because some crazy stuff's gonna be growing in there. Um you know you guys any any any thoughts there on this on the salt free sermon? Yeah go ahead. So so I mean I'll I'll kick in on I mean you don't need salt and again that's referencing one one Sandor Katz as well. But the salt the salt is certainly the flavoring agent.
+
+[17:18] So we we want it there to help peak everything. Fermentation certainly we found fermented foods just taste better. It you're you're developing flavors and the and and the the ingredients are broken down to release uh more aromatics. So you know, anything fermented is good for the most part. Anything ranched, that's a whole other story.
+
+[17:38] Salt levels? Yeah. It it ranges. I I mean we what was it? I I think we've seen as low as one point five percent, but we usually s have our salt brines and a way based brines or something like that.
+
+[17:49] Roughly around what five percent I say. Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty that's pretty standard like, you know, uh not not but you know all these things are crazy. It's like some people they they write in and they take into account their theoretical water base for their veg and some don't. The fact of the matter is is i I think only if you are gonna do this the same thing a lot, right? Like let's say you were gonna make uh fifty five gallons of uh sour pickles, right?
+
+[18:16] Well and then it behooves you to who's gonna do that at home. Right, right, exactly. But I'm saying but if you're gonna do it then it behooves you to get the stuff right. You know what I mean? And get get something to measure salinity and figure out exactly what's going on and measure the water where you can but i in you know in reality at home I think you know eyeballing it in general is okay.
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+[18:34] You know what I mean? I yeah I mean look anyone that's listening to this show, unless you have a very unless you have a specific dietary restriction, right, knows that I believe that salt is not it is not harmful to people that it's not harmful to, right? So you should probably put the salt level where it tastes good to you. Like that's my feeling. What do you guys think about this?
+
+[18:57] I would agree with that. I think that it depends on how long you want to keep your pickles too. If you're gonna eat them in you know relatively quickly then you don't have to worry as much about the bacteria levels. And I also think that with pickle making it's usually pretty obvious when things have gone wrong. And I think actually Sandor says that in his first book that you know, if it smells bad, if it looks bad, don't eat it.
+
+[19:17] Start over again. But you know, pickles are it's it's it's clear when things have gone awry. Things start growing and things get soft and mooshy, and as long as your texture's good and your flavor's good, you're you're good to go. Mmm soft and mushy. All right.
+
+[19:32] Uh his second question is submerging it though. Oh yeah, that was our biggest problem for the longest. If it doesn't matter, as long as you're underneath the brine. Well, that's why, like, you know, that's why the like the easiest way to do it if you don't if you know, is to just vac the crap down and then put it inside of a second vac a vac bag in case it blows and tie the second bag down. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:51] It's like boom, suck suckers insto submerged. Uh, you know, that's you know, it's like such an easy way to to get if you have a vac machine, it's such an easy way to get uh high quality uh I've never tried it just in zipping without a vac, but I'm sure it would work. But the zip bags will blow once it starts fermenting, is the only problem. You know, a a good vacu actually interestingly, a not so good vacuum bag that has slight gas permit, you know, uh that can diffuse a slight amount of gas through it. They they don't blow.
+
+[20:19] I've never really had one I've had them turn into really tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight pillows, but I've never had one explode on me. And uh and the the good news about that too is you get that nice little kind of petillon from the the CO2 that can't leave. Do you ever do that in the vacu do you like doing it in the vac bags? We actually don't. You don't like jars, weights, boom, done.
+
+[20:45] You don't like the vac? I don't I know I don't like the bubbles. Oh, I love the bubbles. You know, I like anything carbonated. If you know me, I like anything carbonated though.
+
+[20:52] Any any damn thing, carbonate any damn thing. Especially kimchi. I love kimchi with some carbonation in it. You have to like kimchi with some carbonation. You hate that?
+
+[21:00] I love that. I hate that. I chop it all up so that the bubbles dissipate. Really? So you're like you're like you're like you're like putting it throwing a vacuum down on it to pull any CO2 out of it right before service.
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+[21:10] You're like pull the CO2 out. All you have to do is slice it up, because you know, once you slice it up, it evaporates naturally. But yeah, I'm not I'm not a fan. Wow, this is i interesting point of difference. And this just goes to show this is why it's good to make your own crap because then you know, if you like it to bubbles, you can make it a bubbles.
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+[21:28] If you don't, you don't. Um then if you do make them you can always get rid of them. That's true. That's true. So uh Johnny's second question.
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+[21:34] Sometimes I cook uh dried beans and despite an overnight soak and long all capitals, so it must be very long cook time, several hours. I cannot get them to finish cooking with a soft interior. Now here's the kicker. I don't add salt or acid. Just cooking them at a boil and uh then at a simmer in water.
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+[21:50] I got them from a popular green market venue vendor that seems like they have a high turnover, so it's not like a five-year-old bean. Could the beans be so old that they just won't cook all the way through, or am I just doing it wrong? I don't have a pressure cooker and would that solve it? Well that's an interesting question. I don't know what would cause them to stay hard if you're not adding any acid to it.
+
+[22:08] Yeah, that's weird. No, I mean he needs is seaweed, combo. Yeah. You put at least a combo in your beans. It it helps tenderize, yeah.
+
+[22:16] Yeah. What's the agent? There's you know, I don't have it in front of me, but there's actually an enzyme in the combo that softens the skin of the beans. So you and helps them absorb water more more easily. So you put it in during the soak?
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+[22:30] You can put it in during the soap soak and leave it in during the cooking time, or if you have like grease soaked beans there, you can always just put it in during the cooking time. Right. It's like you know, a two inch square for every cup of dried beans. Right. Yeah, nice.
+
+[22:45] Go buy the book, go buy the book. But you know, my only question you know, um, the one thing I d I don't know where Johnny lives or what his water quality is like. I mean, most typically Yeah, that could have something to do with it. Right. I mean Oh yeah.
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+[22:57] If he lives in Plano, Texas, he's toast. Why? What's the what's the pH of uh water in Plano? No, the ki the calcium in the water that down there. Oh, they have a lot of c yeah, super hard water if you have calcium will strengthen the pectin and you're done.
+
+[23:09] You're done. You're done. That's gotta be it. It's gotta be the water he's using. It's always the water.
+
+[23:14] Yeah. So, you know. No, I that's right, yeah. Super hard water. We we were doing a demonstration down there a number of years ago.
+
+[23:21] And we were making a uh a pectin bath and didn't account for the calcium in the water because we didn't know about it. The stuff in instantly gelled. And it wasn't even sequestable, you couldn't even hit it with shimp? No, I uh we did afterwards. But at first we didn't even didn't cross our mind to sequester the uh the water and then.
+
+[23:39] Yeah. And then we Yeah. Johnny, I'm uh I'm gonna go ahead here and say that uh we've discovered your problem. You have uh hard water, and you're gonna want to uh use a water softener or get uh like a gallon jug of spring water or something like that. You think we got you think we got it?
+
+[23:55] Or s or at sodium hexametophosphate. Yes, that that would be another solution is to sequester your bean water. Although I've never that's interesting. This might be the first time any human being has ever said I'm going to sequester my bean water. Uh I've not done that yet, but I might have to try that now.
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+[24:09] What to go you get next time you're in Plano, you're gonna go get some water and add some shimp to it to cook beans? All right. Yeah. All right, sweet. Um should we take a commercial break and then come back?
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+[24:19] Yeah. We're gonna come back right back with ideas and food, cooking issues. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us.
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+[24:45] To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. What's Mood? Mood is a quarterly magazine about music and food. For its creators, not many things can beat a good record and a delicious meal. Maybe a well-written story or a gorgeous photo.
+
+[25:37] Well, that's all in Mood. The magazine looks at music and food in a cohesive and unique way, with a keen eye to design and high quality writing. Its contributors are located around the globe, and the stories span accordingly. Check it out today at Mood Music Food.com. That's Mood Music Food.com.
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+[26:01] And welcome back. So uh what is mood? Just kidding, I'm just messing with you, Jack. Anyway, uh, so uh we're back with ideas and food. Uh, you still have time to call in your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[26:12] That's 718497-2128. So the uh folks at uh May May Street Kitchen, uh, who we met when we uh or whom we met when we went up to Harvard, uh, wrote in a question. I think they must have sent it uh before, but I just got it. They said, hello from the crew at May May Street Kitchen. Uh, we are so amped up from watching Dave burn up a bunch of rice at the Harvard Lecture.
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+[26:30] I when I last time I puffed in a lecture, it's I shouldn't do this lecture wise anymore. We uh for those uh you know we we had an issue and we cleared out a science building at Harvard, uh, but it did make a big explosion, which was which was nice. Um anyway, uh we are so amped up from watching Dave burn up a bunch of rice at the Harvard Lecture that we had to write and say how much we love you guys, was very pleasant. The bar, the podcast, uh the blog, everything. It was so fun to see you in action in person, especially Nastasha sitting in the corner like a boss.
+
+[26:56] And honestly, we couldn't think of a better end of the night than watching Dave set off the fire alarm in a cloud of black brown smoke, and subsequently getting Harold McGee to sign our books while sitting on the lawn like a friendly and wise woodland creature. Seriously, we think of burn uh we think of burnt rice and it's great. You gonna be I've never heard of McGee described as a woodland creature before. Woodling creature. I'll have to talk to him about that.
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+[27:17] Uh so uh they have a question from two of uh uh their cooks, Emily and Caden, and uh uh the question is it started when we tried to figure out if the and this is one where they reference you guys specifically, so I'm gonna let you guys just take this sucker and run. You ready? Because they're referencing something that you that one of your techniques. Uh Emily Emily and Caden's question. It all started when we tried to figure out if the air in a fridge is wet or dry, and if a thing placed in that fridge will dry out or absorb moisture.
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+[27:43] We had a peanut brittle on the menu at the time, and we were trying to decide whether we should keep it in the fridge to avoid it melting. It gets hot on a food truck in August, or leave it out to avoid it absorbing moisture and becoming horribly disgusting and gummy. Uh we noted that if you're drying out the skin of something that you want to crisp, you can put it in the fridge, like Dave Chang does in the Momo Fried Chicken Recipe, or Heston does in his home cooked version of triple cooked chips. That's French fries for real people. Uh I'm kidding, British people.
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+[28:09] You know, whatever, we call them French fries. Uh other things that you put in the fridge so they absorb moisture, other things you put in the fridge so they absorb moisture, like on the ideas in food blog, Aki and Alex rehydrate uh dehydrated beets by putting them in the fridge. What gives? So now we're thinking about the relative humidity versus absolute humidity. I don't know what those things mean, but my staff does.
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+[28:29] And whether we should be thinking of the fridge as an open system or a closed system. I don't even know what our question is anymore, but maybe you can just wait you can just wax poetic about humidity and refrigerators and lila like for as long as you deem appropriate. All the best, and thanks again for coming to Boston, Irene and Max and Caden and Emily and Alex, Caitlin and uh Olivia and Peter. Okay. Uh so uh why don't you guys talk about that for a minute?
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+[28:54] All right. Okay. Um the the the bells. Yeah. So we we we pressure cook the beets until they're they're cooked at bejesus, then we dehydrate them until they concentrate and develop a s a nice dark skin.
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+[29:07] Then we we take them while they're still warm. We actually there's there's a missing point there. We put them in in the zip top bags. Well, the warm seal in the zip top bags and then throw them in the fridge. So they steam in the bag in the in the environment.
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+[29:19] So there's your your moisture. So you're just re-equilibrating, really. You're just re equilibrating. Exactly. Yeah.
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+[29:27] So one of the issues with all with all food cookery that involves surface phenomena. So that's frying, uh panning, grilling, uh, par dehydrating, anything, is that uh you develop uh a situation where the inside typically the inside of the food has a much higher moisture content than the outside of the food, right? And so sometimes, and uh, you know, I don't really um you know the inside outside your technique, you know, you'll tell me about tell me about but the sometimes you can form a uh a skin that skin is can be then permanent because the cells have collapsed but you can get moisture back so that they can equilibrate so that the texture changes back to something that you like just by letting the moisture come in from the outside correct or no bingo yeah bingo the uh you typically and this can be a very good thing for this kind of a technique very bad thing with fried chicken horrible with fried chicken right um but you know a a lot of what cooking is uh especially if you want things to last for a while after they're cooked is moisture control and moisture migration from the center of a product to the outside of a product and much time is thought about that especially on the on the pro level this is why people add so much to their tempura. This is why tinpura is actually not good a good product. This is why it actually is bad.
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+[30:48] Like t tenpura I've I've had like some of the supposedly best tenpura chefs in the world make tempura and I've eaten it and it was it wasn't bad. I mean it wasn't bad and that's that's very that's hyperbolic but it's not as awesome as as it could be because it's it's um the the the the the the moisture balance is shafted. I mean if you eat it directly as it comes out you know yeah it's good but I don't know I don't think I ever prefer it and it can't last the way that it's made what do you guys think on tempura? Well but they like to soak it in sauce. So it's sort of the combination of the crunchy and also the soggy.
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+[31:23] Yeah. It's not really only about the crisp. It's not my thing about peanut brittle oh no so what they're saying is is that they have a situation where where uh look i where they put stuff in the fridge and they're having uh they they want to know whether the the the environment in a fridge is adding is is adding moisture to or removing moisture from things. So you put it in a Ziploc bag so it's moisture neutral, but it it adds moisture to the skin by re-equilibrating. In general, fridges are a uh dehydr what?
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+[31:51] Yeah. I think they're moist. Yeah, freezers dehydrate, right? And fridges, you get a lot of recondensation of crap on them. You know, I th I because the thing is like I think if you it depends on the fan speed.
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+[32:03] Like I in in a in some of the pro fidge fridges I've used that have a fan speed that's too high on the circulation, you can get a real pellicle on the outside. I think a lot I think a lot depends on a lot. You know what I mean? Well, it depends on the ingredient too, I think. Because if you're you know, if you put chicken thighs on a rack, they're gonna dry out a little bit.
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+[32:20] The surface is gonna dry out in no matter the fridge. But if you throw peanut brittle in the fridge, the sugar's gonna absorb all the moisture in the air. Right. Well, you know, that's uh even like in the sealed they this is why like you're never supposed to store coffee and and chocolate and what this in in the fridge. There are several reasons, but but to me the reason isn't necessarily that the sucker's gonna get moist while it's in the fridge, it's that as soon as you pull it out, you're gonna get condensation from the air and you're toasted, unless you live in Arizona.
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+[32:47] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So that it makes that makes all the sense in the world. Yeah. No, no, but again, you know, you know, peanut brittle, yeah.
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+[32:59] I would I would use desiccant in a in in a closed container at you know room temperature or in the in the truck. No, a hundred percent. Yeah, desiccant's the way to go, or vac sealed. You know what I mean? Vac sealed in a hard container or you know, vac sealed in a uh in mason jars if you don't have access to a hard container that can hold a vacuum.
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+[33:18] Hey, here's another one for you on refrigerators and moisture content. If it's some uh of the hardcore, in fact, I think all the hardcore Japanese sushi chefs, I only talked to one of them, you know, when he was uh years ago when he came to the FCI. Uh, those guys all have commercial refrigerators and then they're they've never plugged them in, not one time. Uh they just throw giant block of ice into the bottom of the fridge and then keep their fish in there because they want to maintain the temperature, but they don't want the air circulation to mess with the water content at the surface. Presumably, I guess they don't want it to, I would say in the f in a case of fish with very high moisture product, you know, they want to dry and by the way, you know, now that we're now that we're talking about it, you're talking about peanut brittle, which has a moisture content below probably six percent, right?
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+[34:04] Like once it's cooked up, when you say it's like below six, and a fish which has a content probably above eighty or around eighty. You know what I mean? 75 to 80. So, you know, if the fridge is anywhere in between those things, it's gonna shaft both of them. That is true, but peanut butter brittle crusted fish is tasty.
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+[34:23] Yeah, is I've never tried it for real? So it was a made like a peanut brittle and put it on on on uh homachy and then baked it in place. Smoked peanut brittle. And does it does it form like a little snappy like uh you know, like crocante thing on the outside? Yeah, not not quite as crocante as you'd want, but you get that the nice texture of the uh the peanut brittle, the sh uh the the the second, you know, the caramelized the second time.
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+[34:46] You get the nice toasty notes, and then we we use smoke peanut brittle. So anything smoked tastes better. Uh smoked peanuts are in fact delicious. And while we're on the subject of peanuts, I just want to give a shout out to uh the Virginia peanut. Virginia peanut, and the uh you know, I don't get anything from the Virginia peanut people.
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+[35:03] But if you've never Virginia peanut, by the way, it's a variety. It's uh it's a type of peanut. And there's people from uh, you know, North Carolina and South Carolina will tell you that the that the Virginia peanuts that are grown there are just as good, if not better than the ones grown in Virginia. However, it is called a Virginia peanut. That's all I'm gonna say about that.
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+[35:19] But Virginia peanuts, you guys play with Virginia Peanuts at all. No, we have not that I know of. Holy crap. You need to go buy yourself a high quality bat batch of Virginia peanuts. Cause once you have a Virginia peanut, you're like, I can't believe I've been eating this other drek, no offense, planters.
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+[35:35] I can't believe I've been eating this other drek for so long. Virginia peanut is just a superior product. Taste, texture. You know how like a really good Frankfurter has that snap when you bite into it, and you're like, damn, that's what a good Frankfurter tastes like. You know what I'm saying?
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+[35:49] As soon as you bite into one of these giant Virginia peanuts, a good one that's properly roasted and everything, it's like pop, it snaps, it's so awesome. Virginia peanuts. Smoke those suckers. Yeah, get some Virginia peanuts. I got an easy one here for you.
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+[36:02] Uh Mike uh Chicheski, uh by the way, Mike, thank you for phonetically writing out your name. At first I thought it was like some strange name that I can say, oh, he's helping me with the phonetics, because he write Chachevsky. Mike Czecheski writes in about ham hocks. Hello everyone, question about cooking ham hocks. I usually braze uh in a typical uh mirapoi slash water stuff, uh my ham hocks so that the meat gets tender enough that I can pick it off the bone and shred it.
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+[36:26] However, I find that much of the smoky, salty pork flavor is too often leached into the breezing liquid. Do you have a recommended cooking method which will render the meat tender but not rob it of its characteristic uh smoke and flavor? Thanks, Mike Czecheski. Yes, put that sucker in a bag and cook it. Um you might want to add a little bit of liquid because it takes an unbelievably long time to uh render out collagen if there's not a little bit of excess moisture um in with the product.
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+[36:57] Uh but it does it does not take much. Uh and uh pressure steam it actually. So it'll be the fastest way. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah.
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+[37:04] So you put it uh the hawks into you know, a bowl inside your pressure cooker and then and do it then do it that way. You'll have them forty five minutes of perfectly broken down, tear the butches out of 'em, and you go from there. But they'd be salty. Bang. I mean this they have they they won't be salty.
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+[37:21] Yeah, but if you're gonna shred it and use it as an ingredient, it doesn't matter. You know what I'm saying? Do you remember when they used to sell I'm dating myself here, but they used to sell this plastic bag full of seasonings and you would like stick your pork chops and some liquid in them and tie the bag shut and bake them in the oven. Is that like sh not is that like shake and bake? Is it some sort of shake and bake very shake and bake, but it wasn't because it was sort of like this this brace and the bag would puff up in the oven and it would just anyway.
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+[37:48] That sounds fun. You know, when I when I was a kid, you know how like every twenty years or so there's a renaissance of paper bag cooking? Yeah, and I have paper bag uh cookbooks that date back to like the teens. Um, you know, Alexis Sawyer, the famous uh English uh chef, well, French English chef who wrote the gastronomic regenerator in the eighteen hundreds and was kind of like, you know, extremely well known. M FK Fisher loved his stuff.
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+[38:14] His grandson, I think it's in the teens, wrote a book on paper bag cooking that I own. So that comes back. So the only bag stuff I used to do is we used to do I used to do paper bag chicken like once a week. Like that was my jam. When I was a kid in the seventies, like that was like, you know, uh once a week, like I would handle dinner and I would bust out the paper bag chicken, you know, complete with you know all the 70s crap you had in here.
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+[38:35] I would rub it with the butter like you're supposed to, and put the you know, crappy, you know, curry powder from the from the Grand Union on top of it, and shove that sucker in a paper bag and go. You know? That was my stuff back then. And brownies. No one messes with my brownies, man.
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+[38:51] Those are the things I cooked when I was a kid. Um when are you gonna mix brownies? Well, here's the problem. Now that I'm older and I think more about it, it's like, you know, what kind of brownie do you want? Do you want the dense brownie?
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+[39:02] Are you a dense or a fluff? Right. Dense, chewy. I like chewy. Okay, are you a cocoa powder or a chocolate brownie?
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+[39:08] I'm a mix. I used to hate cocoa powder. I was a ch I was a full chocolate brownie because that was my my great grandma and my grandma's recipe was a chocolate brownie. And then I like cocoa. Yeah, right.
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+[39:18] That I learned later about the cocoa brownie. I don't like a hundred percent cocoa brownie because the texture is always weird to me on a hundred percent cocoa brownie. I guess I could just add more fat. Whatever. I don't know.
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+[39:27] So now I do a mix. Anyway. So you like the Rolo inclusion, actually, into the brownie. You like what? A Rolo inclusion.
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+[39:34] Rolo the brown. I have not heard the word or thought about Rollos in decades. Rolos. Do they still they still make rollos? They sure do we do damage to rollers in this house.
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+[39:49] Alright, listen, listen. Stas is a is a candy aficionado. What are your thoughts on Rollos? Yeah? Pro, you're pro Rolo?
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+[39:55] Oh my god. Ideas and food have found something that Nastasha enjoys. The Rolo. I might have to go out. Do you okay?
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+[40:01] Do you like the fro you like frozen candy? Remember the Charleston chew to used to freeze those suckers? Oh, you shatter it. Yeah. Have you powdered Charleston Chew with nitrogen?
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+[40:08] No. Good. Wouldn't that be awesome? That would be good. Well, now I'm thinking about Rolos.
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+[40:13] Would roll those be good frozen? Yeah, they'd be able to do that. Yeah, they are good. Yeah, that's where we're going to be able to do that. But they'll break your cheese.
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+[40:20] Yeah, well, you know, that's why that's why you can go to the dentist and get new ones. That's what Stas does all the time. She like put puts a dentist through uh kids through college every day. The kid the dentist can have a new kid every day and put it through college the way Stas gives that person money. Anyway.
+
+[40:30] Um we have another question in. Uh by the way, uh, thanks for that pressure cooker tip. I don't know why the hell I didn't think of that. We were just talking about pressure cookers and everything. I didn't think of pressure cooker.
+
+[40:42] This is why it's useful to have uh guests on the program. You know what I'm saying? I provide nothing. Uh what? Uh oh anyway.
+
+[40:49] So we have another question in. Uh Nick, who's writing in from Seoul Korea, uh, has a couple of questions, a couple of statements and then a question about halloumi. I actually like Halloumi, but you know, in my neighborhood, uh what we'll talk about in a second. Okay. Uh thanks for addressing my tofu questions a couple of weeks ago.
+
+[41:04] Uh the tofu soup which you uh suddenly developed a hankering for is uh Sundubu uh G guy. I cannot pronounce any uh words in any language except for German. Uh which I actually only Austrian German. I was uh did I tell this story on the air? I went to Austria uh a little while ago and I told I said this story on the air?
+
+[41:22] Anyway, yeah, so I can do Austrian accents because I listened to too many Arm Force Negro movies growing up. Anyway, uh Dubu is a Korean iteration for what is known in the West as tofu and uh J guy's umami rich soup, often made with feisty elements and served in boiling clay pots. By the way, I love myself. The clay pots aren't my favorite. I love the tollsot, the uh the the stone bowls.
+
+[41:43] I have nine of them. I have nine of them at my house. And they like if it wasn't for liability issues, every Applebee's in or TGI Fridays in the US would be serving everything in these hot stone bowls because hot stone bowl plus a little bit of oil, some rice, anything you have in your fridge and an egg on top is delicious. Delicious. Um I'm surprised that this thing's harmful.
+
+[42:05] Is there a brand of of hot stone bowls that you like? Well, there no I've never had a br I've never seen a brand on them. I just, you know, I go to the big bowl.com. Yeah, you go in there and you buy them. There's there's there's three fundamental sizes, and I have like some of each, like the big one, and you know, I've only ever had one fail on me, and it didn't 100% fail, but it's developed cracks.
+
+[42:27] I can still use it if I have to. But they develop an amazing kind of patina over time. Um I, you know, this my standard procedure, they're made of a rock that may or may not contain asbestos. Uh they call a I think serpentine or something like this. And uh, you know, you put it on your burner, and literally I put it right on my burner and I just shoot it with an IR until it hits uh 600, 615 Fahrenheit, then I kill all the burners and just ladle a little oil into them, smack the rice in, and done.
+
+[42:58] I mean, like literally, like if someone's if like a bunch of people are coming over and you know, I just need something to be good now. I do the quick cook on my rice cooker, 20 minutes out while that's cooking. I blast out like you know, whatever I have in my fridge, I'll cut it up, make some sort of quick sauce, bang, done. Like if everyone should own a set of the hot stone bowls, uh, in my opinion. Anyway, okay, so back to the question.
+
+[43:21] Um, but that technique with the burning rice doesn't work as well on the clay pots because the clay pots can't hold nearly as much uh energy as those stone bowls can. Um you don't get the crust. No. No, not with rice. I mean, look, they're great.
+
+[43:34] I like the I have a couple of the clay pots too, but I I thought I could get them because they're like a third of the price or less of the stone. And I thought that like I could get away doing, you know, the uh the rice trick in the clay pot, and it just wasn't the same. So then I was like, Well, I'll take the clay pot so that my guest can have the crunchy rice. I was like, you know, crap on it. I will just go buy more stone bowls.
+
+[43:53] And so that's what I've done. Um okay. So then he adds, I've just had uh landed uh Andrea and Wynn's book. Do you have that book on tofu? Is that good?
+
+[44:00] Yes, it's a good book. Okay. Uh and the book of tofu, the short leaf one, the famous shirt leaf one, uh, is en route. Once I get my basic tofu skill, uh tofu making skills down, I hope to experiment with mixing in some non-traditional flavors into the soy milk as well as working and some textual surprises. I also look forward to making tofu skins, which I've done.
+
+[44:16] That is great. I you know what I really the amazing thing about uh making um you know tofu skins, yuba, is uh is the difference in the first couple skins and that tasting them as they go down. I've never had to do it kind of uh on mask. I've never done it for an event. I just do it for myself at home, but like tasting the difference in the sheets as they come off, isn't that kind of like an like a fun, fun, awesome thing to do?
+
+[44:37] You guys you guys like that, right? That's awesome, no? I mean, there's no. So stuff's good. Well, we haven't yet.
+
+[44:48] We might have to do that. Yeah, you should do it. We won't be shortly, apparently. You should do it. Uh, like the first couple that come uh off are like a much darker color and they have a completely different flavor because of the first stuff, I guess it settles up to the top and then they change as they as they go down, and um, you know, just like you know, warm with some uh you know, some sort of salty crap put over the top of them, they're delicious.
+
+[45:10] Okay, anyway. Um I also look forward to making tofu skins, cut the way handmade soba slice, they'd make wonderful gluten-free noodles. Eh, I never thought about that. And I've never seen one chunk of tofu that's not stored in water here in Korea. I think every commercial, everywhere, every country people store it commercially in water.
+
+[45:26] I just happen to not like to not do that. I happen to make it right before I'm gonna eat it, and then I just eat it without ever leaching all of the stuff out with water. Uh my guess here is folks uh like their tofu mild and subtle. Uh I have another question for you today. So that was just a statement.
+
+[45:39] I have another question for you today. Can you explain the science behind grilling cheeses such as halloumi or finish and it's gonna kill me? Lipae giusto. Uh which I don't, I'm not familiar with that. I'm familiar with Halloumi.
+
+[45:44] And uh and oh, you might not be familiar with this because if you don't live in an area that has lots of Latin markets, uh queso queso potafrier is a version of uh queso blanco, which is firmer even than queso blanco, and you can deep fry that sucker without a crust. It's even more kind of resilient than uh Halloumi is. But anyway, uh what keeps them from melting with heated or or would it be possible to achieve this non-melting property with other cheeses? Thanks, Nick. Um so the the main the main thing about Halloumi is that uh they cook the ever-loving crap out of uh out of halloumi.
+
+[46:24] Um and so a lot of the water is out of it uh when it's done, and then they salt the hell out of it. So I think that's the main function of the stabilization of Halloumi, which I I happen, you know, I like I like it a lot. But first they they do um after they make uh the curd, the initial curd. So halloumi I believe is rented. That's what I could get off of the internet.
+
+[46:45] It's reneted, and then they cut the curd into small pieces, like you know, uh very s fairly small pieces, and then they cook it um to like uh 90, not like in the 90s Celsius, and then uh dump whey on top. They they heat the whey to pull the proteins out so they can make some ricotta-like thing, and then uh they heat it in in in this and press the crap out of it, like press the ever-loving crap out of it, heat it, and then put the blocks in salted whey. So, like all of those things are like hyper-stabilizing the cheese and giving it that kind of rubbery texture. Whereas queso blanco um is uh acid coagulated, but then also acid coagulated very hot and then salted while it's hot, which means that it's gonna be giving up a lot of its moisture. And I think that that's basically all there is to it.
+
+[47:29] I don't think there's any way to make an actual cheese unmeltable unless you've cooked the curds before you pressed it out. You guys ever made a cheese un well okay you could make a you could do it with gels. Mozzarella noodles. Right, you're using a but you're you're you're what you did it with regular mozzarella. Why don't you describe the process?
+
+[47:48] Yeah so we uh we uh we puree mozzarella with a little bit of ricotta and we add activa originally we started with yg uh which gives it a nice cheesy note to it again that's the addition of the yeast extract to the YG. Right. You can actually use TI and then we we we spread it thin on acetate sheets, let it set overnight and then you can cut the noodles and they you can boil them and you have these beautiful again you cut them you cut them like tagglatils. We make mozzarella tagliatail. So it's just as stable as uh as like the gelatin uh the gelatin noodles are the ones that are uh set with gelatin and and uh TI I would think so yeah I mean we we've again you're just you've got the they're they're they're they're awesome.
+
+[48:29] We've got a nice little authentic bite to them but it tastes just like mozzarella. Uh and then we did it with we did it with feta too and it made feta cubes. So we made you know and and we're able to you know saute you know big chunks of feta deep fry you know deep fry them stuff like that. Right so what they're talking about is uh an enzyme transglutaminase and transglutaminase has the property that it covalently binds uh proteins together in this case uh primarily I'm assuming you're using whole milk ricotta not the actual other stuff so there's a lot of casein present uh and the casein in fact, casein, the protein, casein from milk, is the protein that's added to uh most uh the the activa that that is most used uh in um in the biz is activa rm, which is a just a combination of activa, the ends uh or of transglutaminase the enzyme and of uh casein, milk protein. So it's just casein on casein action.
+
+[49:20] It should work. You said it does work with RM, right? It w it works only gen uh not as much. And uh we we use YG. Right designed for raw dairy applications, and then we s we in a pinch we did TI.
+
+[49:31] T I works as well, because again we're pureeing it in, so you don't need a protein bridge like you'd have in RM or even in the YG. I'm s I'm super surprised that uh the RM doesn't work 'cause it's just more casein. I wonder why. No, but that what it it doesn't work as well because there's half as much transglutaminase in the guy. Y G has a high level T I okay, so here's the deal.
+
+[49:49] T I is and I don't know if they still have a kosher app on it, because remember you can't have a kosher RM because it's milk, and so they assume that you it's milk protein, so they're assuming you're binding meat with it and you can't bind meat with milk. That would be a kosher no no. But they made T I which is just transglutaminase and maltodextrin. T I has a higher enzymatic activity per gram than RM does, but I did not know that YG also has a higher enzymatic activity. Yeah, it's it's uh it's a hundred uh parts per million as opposed to fifty.
+
+[50:21] Hmm for the w for the RM. And so and you don't want to double up on the RM because you start getting uh off off blah blahs or something, or or just then you No, I again I don't think it even crossed our mind really is what it was. I mean we st we s we so we summed across RM and we we saw we it started up years ago with we wanted to make flourless ricotta nudie or gnocchi. Uh and and we we were we're working with that and we you know called the folks at Achin Moto and chatting with them and said we're doing this. Uh we're gonna do try it with RM.
+
+[50:48] And they're like, Well, I well got this new product out there called YG. It was designed for dairy applications, blah, blah, blah. Right. I'm not very patient, so they they were gonna send us to YG, but I already had some RM, so we started playing with it. And the the RM sets up nicely, but the YG sets up a little bit more firmly.
+
+[51:06] Uh and it has a has a uh a more uh a fuller flavor. And that full flavor is actually coming from the yeast extract that's also part of the YG formulation that was designed for the dairy applications. Cool. Uh by the way, back to I don't recommend using RM, which is a casein uh protein helper on uh gelatin. I find it doesn't set as well when you're doing the gelatin noodle trick with the RM, presumably because you really just want to link gelatin to gelatin and not gelatin to casein.
+
+[51:33] Uh I don't know if you guys have also had that uh experience. We have uh actually not got not gone deep into the the gelatin noodle thing because I don't know why. I think we just uh we what we saw we saw it was done. It's going on two other hours. Right.
+
+[51:49] So not uh not Harold McGee, we have a question in for hard water, but uh William McGee at Los Neko writes in is listening and says, I live in Plano, uh Texas. Are there any are there any times cooking or using hard water is beneficial? Sure, making uh making alkaline noodles, uh it can be helpful, right? Yeah, that is there anything else? Cooking cooking cooking broccoli so it doesn't get mushy.
+
+[52:14] I mean I uh Yeah maybe you what else? Uh yeah, I don't know. Not much. I got nothing. Yeah.
+
+[52:20] I mean but it's Oh, unless you unless unless unless you're just encapsulating things and you're just dropping things right into it. Right. I mean, uh most hard water is probably fairly basic, right? So it may be good for I mean, I don't know. I mean, I know it's b it's alkaline and hard water that was the original well water used to make the noodles that were then substituted later for consway, but I don't really know the pH of the water in Plano.
+
+[52:43] I don't know. So it might not even be helpful for the for the noodles because the the noodles isn't a calcium thing. The noodles is really a pH thing. Uh so probably just stopping broccoli from getting mushy or something like that, right? Anyway.
+
+[52:58] Um, Aaron Will wrote in saying whole shrimp was used. We have induction only, so not a huge problem. Just curious. I'll push for a pressure cooker for many reasons, especially after you know, hearing the other tips about ham hocks and whatnot. Uh I got uh uh Nastash's giving the snack smack smack a smack up.
+
+[53:14] Um here's I got some questions in though that these guys are gonna want uh answered. Uh Chris McDaniel writes in uh any ideas for making caviar in quotes, i.e. the I guess the fake caviar with okra seeds. You guys ever done anything with ochra seeds? I guess maybe making them using the mucilage format.
+
+[53:30] Interesting. Yeah, I have not. We've never done it. I I mean I would imagine that you would soak it the way you I mean I wonder if you could take dried okra seeds and soak them the way you soak like basil seeds or something like that. Oh, and get them to puff up, get them to hydrate and puff up like that.
+
+[53:46] Get them to hydrate and give them a different flavor and kind of you know, or like mustard seeds, you'd make a but I think you probably have to start with dried seeds to start, you know, because how are you gonna That's interesting, we'll have to play with that. Yeah, yeah, we'll give it a the okra seeds they they uh I mean we've played around I mean you if you look at them years ago we we kind of cut okre up and looked at it and looks just like caviar. So you can kind of cook a a a stew of fresh ochra seeds, they get a little slimy and stuff like that. Again, it's just uh what kind of flavor do you want? Any way to kill the slime?
+
+[54:16] I exclusively eat okra, either fried, whole, or pickled. I never use it as a thickener. I'm not a big slime master. I don't have to big on the slime. I I could have sworn I saw you wearing that t-shirt.
+
+[54:28] The slime master? Well, different kinds. Different kind of slime. Xanthan. I like, you know, yeah, f hand me some Xanthan.
+
+[54:34] I'll snot up any s any sauce you got, I'll turn it to snot two seconds with Xanthan. That's my speciality. Um my goodness. Uh Jonathan Panzerman writes in, can you suggest a good stirred cocktail using blueberry for a large group, perhaps mostly advanced prep? Any tips?
+
+[54:47] Welcome. Stirred cocktail almost always you're gonna want to clarify them. So hopefully you have a uh an ability to clarify blueberry juice. Blueberries are usually fairly low on bricks and acid, so you're gonna need to do probably a pre-chill on it unless you uh dope it with so much sugar that you can use it as a simple syrup, but then you're not gonna have as much blueberry flavor in the finished product. We used to do one with uh mezcal uh lemon and uh I think it was lemon, mezcal lemon and uh blueberry, and a couple other things called melinche that was good.
+
+[55:16] But you guys ever done a stirred with blueberry? No, we've done we've had muddled, muddled with blueberry, which is you know, like a like a blueberry mash. So it's already been marinated up. Yeah. Another problem you're gonna have with blueberries is I hope you're not trying to get that dark blue color because sucker's gonna turn purple as soon as you go acid, uh, and you're gonna go acid because the blueberries already contain their own acid.
+
+[55:39] Um but you know, I would try, I mean, that's what we we used to do, uh a light, a lighter mezcal, uh mixed with tequila, blueberry, a little bit of sugar to augment because the bricks isn't so high on that, and that's it stirs very well, but it requires you to have a centrifuge. Otherwise, you could crush muddle strain. Um but you know, you in a stirred cocktail, the the big thing is you don't want it to be uh a soupy mess. You want it to be nice and uh clear um okay also uh christian uh spinilla wrote in have you guys been following uh you know they're gonna rip it rip me off the air in a minute, but you you know, you guys uh are familiar with the uh with the controversy over uh carrageenin and uh acid right you guys been I I get I get bothered about this quite a quite a bit you you know so for those of you listening out there there was some research uh and it's it's been around a long time that you don't want to uh use carrageenins in high acid systems that are heated uh for a long time and the reason being that the carrageenins can be degraded and that degraded carrageenin may be uh may cause uh may have some carcinogenic potential over time and may be an irritant to the stomach called degraded uh kerragena there's a more technical term but I don't forget it uh and then there's uh there's uh this this f it's group called cornucopia something that's been putting out all of these scientific papers I have a link to it which you can you know look on the tweets and tweeted it to me uh that you know there's a a new kind of push out against carrageenin and that you shouldn't use carrageenin and let me just say this uh the the work that was being put out there is kind of the the worst kind of scientific bunk I haven't had the time to figure out whether or not their actual points are right or wrong but the method of presentation is uh leads me to believe that the stuff i is wrong. They for instance use as scientific evidence that someone said I stopped eating carrageenin and then I stopped having the the fodding problems.
+
+[57:34] You know things like that. You know so kind of like post hoc ergopropter hoc arguments for the efficacy of removing carrageenin from your diet and they uh they focus almost exclusively on the research of a of a certain Dr. Tobachman who has had an axe to grind on carrageenin for a long, long, long, long time. And I think, you know, one of the things is that science is really, really like real science, not like, you know, like, you know, well, you know, what we, you know, what we, the people who are talking here, we you we use the results of science and you know we're voracious I'm I'm talking for you now, sorry. Voracious like consum consumers of this sort of thing.
+
+[58:11] But actual science is uh a lot different and you know it's extremely hard work and it's a lot of boring, boring, boring, boring keeping track of notes and and and really putting in the time to get your results right. And the key thing to being a really good scientist is to not start with uh with the feeling that your conclusions or your hypothesis is correct. You really have to test your hypothesis and all of the work that uh Dr. Tobachman uh has done that I've seen has led me to believe that she is completely colored by her uh her her her her mind is completely colored by her preconceived notions that carrageenan is this uh you know evil thing and let us not forget that most of the carrageenan we eat we eat in extremely small quantities in fact that is the reason carrageenin is used in dairy applications is because it can be used in extremely small quantities have you guys been following this sort of thing or heard any and like recent anti Carageenan rumblings and by the way it could be the worst thing in the world I just I I haven't had a chance to back it up. I just can say that the writing about it is is is poorly done and and it's done in a junk science way.
+
+[59:17] Why don't you why don't you guys have the last word on kerageenin and before you do it I'm gonna thank you for coming I really enjoyed having you I hope to have you again and I know the book is going to do extremely well go out and buy it everyone now your last words on carrageenan. Last words on carrageenan before I give that. Tomorrow we will actually be in New York City at the 92nd Street Y at seven o'clock with a cooking demo. So and book signing. So if people want to join us, they can come see us in person.
+
+[59:40] Where do they where do they get tickets? Tickets are on the YNTA's website, 92nd Street Y. Alright, so go to the go to 92nd Street Y. Shell out, shell out, whatever. What is it cost for them to go see it?
+
+[59:52] 25 bucks. I think it's $25. $25. That's like what it costs to go to a movie in popcorn now. Please go to the 92nd Street freaking Y, you know, and uh go see these guys uh uh tomorrow.
+
+[1:00:03] Okay, now Carrageenan. Carrageenan. Uh we just started seeing the rumblings of it. The the funny thing is is keragen and an acid really they don't get along at all. So I guess that's my my my biggest question there is is is why why are they mixing very often together?
+
+[1:00:18] Right. But yeah, but the well the point the point is the only time it could ever really be uh an issue if you if you know if the if the degraded carrageenan argument is right, is if you tried to make a high acid system with a boatload of carrageenin, and the only way to do that would be to overload it with carrageenin so that the carrageenin g doesn't get obliterated by the acid. Which you would never eat too much carrageenin anyway. Right, which you would never do. Which you which you would never do.
+
+[1:00:41] Right. You know, and the their other argument is that you know that the kerragen can get degraded in your stomach to become degraded carrageenin is bunk because uh the there's you know a very limited transit time and and bless you and and you and you need a certain amount of heat in order for the degradation to take place. You're not getting acid hydrolysis of carrageenin at body temperature, but i i in the transit time that it's in your in your stomach. But you know, that's that that don't that's just me reading the scientific literature. Don't take it to mean anything.
+
+[1:01:11] You know what I mean? Uh so when when you when you dive deep into this one, please let us know what the answer is. Alright, cool. Cool. Alright, thanks so much.
+
+[1:01:22] It's been a good time. Cooking issues. Thank you. Alrighty. We'll talk to you soon.
+
+[1:01:27] Alright, cool. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:01:46] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network dot org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:35] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. As always, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez joining me in the studio. How you doing? Yeah. And Jack and Joe in the Engineering Booth, how are you guys doing?
+
+[0:47] We're doing well. Yeah? Nice. So listen, how many uh how much longer do we have to go on the uh on the Kickstarter there on the HACCP Kickstarter, the underground uh collective's uh great question, I'll get right back to you. Yeah, let's figure that out.
+
+[1:00] Because remember, what they're trying to do here with this Kickstarter and uh is to create a HACCP plan. Now, not a HACCP plan for restaurants, although you could use it at a restaurant, but not not just for restaurants, which is a much simpler thing, but a verified HACCP um then verified HACC plan for doing cured meats. Uh and verified means that the uh protocol has been tested and verified by an independent lab and accepted such that uh anyone could use this HACCP plan for um uh rating themselves to do uh, you know, USDA approved uh curing of meats. And it's very expensive process, normally tens of thousands of dollars. And what they're doing is they're gonna pay for theirs, but then make it uh available for everyone to use on you know, everyone to use, and therefore kind of an open source HACC plan, which is a fantastic good idea.
+
+[1:52] So uh either Jack or Joe is gonna get back to us with how they're doing it. I'm ready. What do you got? It's passed. Successfully raised its goal three months ago.
+
+[1:59] Three days ago, sorry. Three days. How much longer do you still have to give them money? Zero seconds. Oh man.
+
+[2:05] Yeah, three days ago is an uh so they raised just just shy of 50,000 uh for their forty thousand dollar goal. So congratulations. All right, well, congratulations to them, and I'm sorry we didn't get to pump it once more, but uh I'm glad they made it. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[2:20] I missed it. I was gonna contribute and I missed it. Crap. Uh all right. We have some questions in.
+
+[2:25] Call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Had a good time last week with the ideas and food people, huh? Yeah, they were good. Yeah.
+
+[2:32] Uh what are we doing today? What why don't we tell them what what uh what our day is like today? What we're gonna do. Pizza. Yeah, we're gonna have a pizza.
+
+[2:39] I'm thinking we're gonna get the Robertus Greens uh related pizza, right? But I really meant more in terms of uh the Martha Stewart event. I know, I know. Well uh bar meeting. Okay, yes, we're having a bar meeting.
+
+[2:49] Yeah, okay, yeah, that's what I think people made products. Yeah. And it's kind of cool. Yeah. It's in Grand Central.
+
+[2:58] So we're doing a cocktail uh as usual, and uh we're using a particular apple called uh a Wixen, uh it's called a Wixen crab apple, even though I don't believe it's actually a crab apple. I believe it's a regular domestic apple. I'll have to look that up. Maybe you guys look that up for me. Uh Wixen apple.
+
+[3:13] Uh but it's very small, which is why it's called a crab. I believe it's originally from California, hence American made. Not just grown in America, but a real American apple, ooh. Except for that's right, California. Yeah, but which is unusual, actually.
+
+[3:27] Most of the apple varieties that, you know, the old or or it's not that old that this one, but a lot of the famous apple varieties are uh, you know, I don't yeah, all you know, apologies to folks from Washington and the Pacific Northwest who think they grow, you know, all the great apples. But most of the great apple varieties come from the East Coast and the North. And uh but Wixen is a fantastic little apple because it has a very, very high sugar content and a very, very high um acid content. And what that means, it's extremely friendly for cocktails. Uh so um, you know, much so you can use like much less of it, have a much higher uh flavor profile.
+
+[4:02] Another apple that does that that's not American is the Ashmead's kernel, which I hope to get very soon. You're gonna get some from John Riper. Yeah? Yeah, you're just Ash Mead's kernel from Out West. Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:11] Whoa. I've never had an Ash Mead's kernel from Out West. I've had them from England, I've had them from New York, I've had them from New Hampshire, but I've never had them from uh all right, so we'll try a Western Ash Mead's kernel. Ash Meats kernel was discovered sometime in the first decade of the uh 1700s in England. Also a very high sugar and acid a uh apple and just really just a real both the Wixen, the Wixen also has not just high acid and sugar, but a very nice flavor, a kind of spicy.
+
+[4:34] It makes a light, light, light, light pink juice that's really uh pretty. Ashmeads kernel makes uh a yellow juice, uh 'cause it's not a red fleshed apple, a red skinned apple, and uh just a fantastic juice. So we'll use that in a little bit. But the drink we're making with Wixen today is we're taking um well today we're using Micters, and we're making a similar drink tomorrow with maker's mark, but a whiskey. Uh is the Micters the rye or the bourbon that we're using?
+
+[4:57] Bourbon. So bourbon in both cases. And we're the problem with mixing a fantastic apple like Wixen, uh Wixen crab apple. The w uh the problem with mixing it with uh straight whiskey, uh, and then also the problem that if you're gonna carbonate it, which we are, uh the problem is that the oak, all of the oak extractives in the whiskey really just ride roughshod over the top of the apple variety, and they don't marry well, and it just becomes a big confusing mess, uh, or cordal you, as my son Booker puts it. He calls any kind of mess a cordile U after the uh I don't know if it's I don't want to get into it.
+
+[5:29] Anyway, so the uh so you what we do is we have to strip out some of that oak and we put it through a process we call detannining. And the way we do it is we add various charged um charged uh ingredients to the uh to the to the thing that agglomerate some of that oak and then we filter it out. The easiest one, the one we're doing for this, is we take chitosan. Uh kitosan is uh now now my brain's erased. Kitosan is positively charged, I think, hydrocolloid, uh derived from usually from shrimp shells, although within the next couple of years we'll have fungally available chitosans.
+
+[6:04] Uh I always forget which one's positive, which one's negative with my brain's gone. Anyway, so we add uh we add some of that to the uh to the uh bourbon, we let we shake it up, we let it sit around uh sit around a while. Then, now here's the trick. We want to suck out the chitosan and also suck out uh the uh tannins and the oak extractives that are bound to the chitosan. So I don't want to add something that is um that dissolves.
+
+[6:29] I want to add instead something that just swells a little bit but has a high surface area. So I add high acyl gel-in, that's calcal gel F, which is a hydrocolloid that is oppositely charged from chitosan, but won't dissolve in the liquor. And you just add it and shake it, and it turns milky, and you keep shaking it, and you shake it over the course of a couple of hours, three or four times, and when that stuff settles out, you don't even need a centrifuge. You just pour this stuff off, and you have uh whiskey that has been had some of uh the kind of harshness of it removed. And I have more aggressive techniques that use gelatin, but they're extremely aggressive.
+
+[7:02] Like it comes out, you know, you know, too neutral for my taste. We then take that, we mix it with Wixen, uh, a little bit of water, carbonate it, and bueno, right? Yeah, it's good, right? It's a good product. Anyway, that's what we're making today for it's not called Taste of Martha.
+
+[7:16] What's it called? American made. American made? Yeah, Taste of Martha. How many drinks are we making for that thing?
+
+[7:23] Uh eight bottles worth of Victor's bourbon. So what is this? This is the opening. It's the opening party for the there's some sort of festival or awards or some crap, right? Do we know anyone that's winning awards?
+
+[7:34] No, we don't. It's all like little small mom and pop vendors. We don't know any of those? I feel like we should know all of those. Like I saw a quilt maker when I was up there.
+
+[7:42] Oh, quilt. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know anything about quilts. Do you know anything about quilts? My mom quilts.
+
+[7:46] Too far I hate it. Strong. Okay. Uh got one in from Zach in Pittsburgh. Hey, Zach.
+
+[7:54] Uh how you're doing. Uh how yeah, I like that. How you're doing. Uh, what's the deal with canned black olives? Why are they terrible?
+
+[8:02] How come we live in a time when every grocery store has an olive bar with decent oil and salt cured olives? Many restaurants continue to put these black balls of disgusting on their salads. I like how it's a black just a black ball of disgusting. It's not even an olive, not a black ball of disgusting olive, just a black ball of disgusting. Uh Zach, you're forgetting the sliced discs of disgusting that go on top of the nachos.
+
+[8:25] Um how do we defeat the canned black olive menace? Thanks, Zach in Pittsburgh. So, first of all, I've never literally have never spoken to uh Nastasia about uh Nastasia, about uh this olive uh style. And since she is from California, land of the California uh style olives. So, what are your thoughts on canned black California olives?
+
+[8:47] I really don't like them, but I had them on pizza on Saturday, so I can eat them. You can eat them, but you I don't like it. Have you always not liked them? Yes. Yeah?
+
+[8:55] But you like olives. So you're not one of these people that just doesn't like olives. Yes. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[8:59] Well, for those of you like them? Uh okay. Okay. Listen, don't anyone get angry at me. They they they're they're they're bad product, right?
+
+[9:11] They're not a good product. Okay, let's just put it that way. Uh I don't mind them. You know what I mean? It's like, here's my feeling.
+
+[9:17] And Zach, stick with me here. Don't like switch off the radio and run screaming. If you think about them as if they were an olive, then they're horrible. You know what I mean? It's a horrible thing.
+
+[9:29] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. If all you're thinking about it is kind of like a squidgy, somewhat oily black texture blobule, right? Then I'd say it's better than a lot of the uh, you know, hydrocolloid tricks that people pull. And it's just it's just like a little textural thing.
+
+[9:50] It has like a like a slight flavor. Um, and so I I find them theoretically offensive, right? And I uh in in most applications, I would rather have a real olive, you know, but uh I don't I don't think that they're I don't think that well, maybe they are an abomination that should be erased, but I don't mind them somehow. You know what I'm saying? What are they are they olives?
+
+[10:15] Yeah, okay. So let's talk about how they're made. In fact, you can look up uh there's uh UC Davis put out I love UC Davis. I love I freaking love UC Davis. Uh they put out a uh a technical bulletin uh called Olives Safe Methods for Home Pickling that you can get a PDF of.
+
+[10:31] There's also uh an online PDF available called uh California Olives Processing the Crop that goes through the technical uh literature on how to um make California style black olives. But should you be a moron enough to want to make California style black olives with the olives that come off of your tree in your backyard? UC Davis tells you how to do it, which I freaking love, right? They also tell you how to make real olives. So the the deal with all olives when they come off the tree is they're very high in a substance called and I can't pronounce it, everyone who know who listens knows that I can't pronounce it a damn thing.
+
+[11:03] Is uh oleuropene, which is an extremely uh bitter uh compound that's in all in olives that is water soluble. So the trick of all curing techniques, right, is to leach out or get rid of a certain quality of that oleuropene, right, to make the uh olives palatable. So in a salt cured olive, traditional old school salt cured olive, you just take and pack the olives in salt, moisture leaches out as a result. The moisture carries with it a large amount of the oleeropine and it drips down in in the thing, and then boop, and you have to wait a long time, right? Oil cured uh salt cured olives.
+
+[11:39] Uh then you can rinse off the salt and pack them in oil, whatever you want. Uh brine cured olives, right? Typically, what you do even before you add the the brine, you'll crack the olive so that more you know because the skin is not so easy to penetrate. And then uh you'll put it in a water solution, and the water will leach out the oleuropine. And so what they'll do is they'll change the water like once a day for, you know, depending on how much bitterness you want to extract.
+
+[12:03] You want to leave some of it in, the more you extract, kind of not only bitterness but other flavors are gone, so you lose more flavor as you go, right? Then after you're done with that, you then uh can put it in a brine solution, a salt solution, and do a straight uh fermentation of it, make kind of a delicious fermented olive, or if you're puny, or if you like this, you can just add a vinegar solution to it, and that will prevent further fermentation, and you have more of a pickled olive, right? So those are kind of the things. Now, all of these things take time. And what do the California olive producers not want?
+
+[12:35] To take time. They don't want to take time. So they have this genius, well, genius, this technology called lye processing. So they're using lye, it's another use of lye in in the kitchen. So lye, uh the you know, the basic solution lye, breaks down uh the oleropine and makes it easy to extract.
+
+[12:52] So once the lye gets in there, it wipes it out in a couple of days. They can go through the entire procedure, right? Instead of weeks, they can do the entire procedure from uh you know harvest to uh in a can in like in like 10 days, like seven to ten days, right? And here's here's how it works. First of all, uh so they they don't have enough production facilities to um to do olives to do all the olives at harvest time.
+
+[13:19] And in fact, it doesn't make economic sense. They want to do harvesting throughout the year. So California olives, what happens is they're picked and they're put in uh vats, but they're not even put in salt brine vats anymore. They used to put them in salt brine vats to keep them static so that nothing happened to them. They didn't want them to ferment or change because it's not what they're looking for.
+
+[13:37] They're not looking for fermented and changed, they're looking for a bland neutral California black olive. So what they do, and by the way, they're not picked black, they're picked at what's called the green ripe stage, which is ripe, but it's it's green, it hasn't turned black yet, even though olives will turn black on the tree. Blackish purple. Fermenthocyan. It's actually our good buddy anzocyanins, or what's doing that.
+
+[13:55] So, anywho, so they're green and they're stored in this salt brine. But people are like, well, look, you know, people are getting mad at us because we're dumping all this salt into the earth, right? It's bad. So they now literally just store it in giant vats, tons, like 20 ton vats of uh a mix of lactic acid, acetic acid, which is vinegar, and uh benzoate and sorbate to keep any sort of yeast or bacteria from growing. It's so it's in a preservative brine, uh not even a brine, a preservative acid bath.
+
+[14:21] And it can stay there for like a freaking year for for a long time. Although apparently, according to the processing the crop PDF, premium quality California olives are usually processed before July. Now remember, that's freaking July. So they're sitting in a static bath since I don't know, when are they harvest? Like November or whatever, around then, right?
+
+[14:40] Okay. So you get them out of this brine thing, right? And then they put them, they used to do it as as a as a processing. Now they just have kind of like uh automatic tanks that can do it, big automatic tanks that can do it. So you dump it in a tank and you you flush it with lye, right?
+
+[14:53] Now, here's the trick. You need to keep give it like a bunch of different uh lye baths. So you drain off the lye and you add more lye, drain off the lye and add more lye. And in between, and during that process, you're bubbling air through it, right? And it's the air added to the uh olives along with the lye breaks stuff down, right, and makes more of the polyphenolic compounds in the olives available to kind of agglomerate, and you add air and the oxygen helps them oxidize, and that's what makes the black color of the olive, is the air.
+
+[15:22] So if you were to do a live treatment with no air, right, then you would not have a black olive. And in fact, the UC Davis uh document, when you're making, if you should ever want to go home and make the California black olives yourself, what you do is you put the lye in it and then you uh drain it and let it be exposed to air for a while, then add more lye. Pop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, b, bump. So you keep lying it and you cut them open and you look, and as soon as the lye hits the pit, you've leached out enough of the oleuropene. It's much faster than it is, much faster than any of the other techniques.
+
+[15:48] But it also uh gets rid of almost all of the old European, meaning it has almost no bitterness left, and uh as a side benefit, leaches out almost all the characteristic flavors of the olives, so you have the tasteless padlum left, right? Now it goes through a rinsing procedure to get rid of the uh to get rid of the lye, and they have accelerated mixing systems with air that blasts the stuff out. Now you got rid of the lye with water, they dump all that crap, then uh they do a light brine solution, and they have to brine it, they have to get the brine solution you know up in increments, otherwise the olive will shrivel, and then they can that sucker at a high, high, high pressure. Oh, uh it it it before canning, uh they add a little bit of I forget what it is, but it's some sort of iron compound. And the iron compound is there to fix the black color so the black color doesn't fade or change over time.
+
+[16:35] So uh on the internets they will falsely say that that that the uh this ferric thing is added, so ferrous thing is added so that to make the black color because they're not turning black naturally. That's not true. It's really just a preservative. Not that that's better, but I prefer accuracy to inaccurate uh statements. And so there you have your uh California uh black riped olives.
+
+[16:57] Thanks. Nice. Let's go to a commercial break. Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat.
+
+[17:30] The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and Mule Foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org.
+
+[18:01] Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back. How you doing? Good. Oh, I like I like that.
+
+[18:18] It's like, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the lead in again. Beep meep beep beanie. Like that actually was renamed Fishes Fishes Vodka, right? That's the real name of the song. Well, yeah, I mean, it's very closely related to the uh vicious vicious vodka, the Amos Milburn cut, which we you know, which we used to use.
+
+[18:36] Hey, we got a caller, Dave. Got a caller? Alright, caller. Caller on the air. Hello.
+
+[18:41] Howdy. Hi, Dave. Howdy. Uh I have a question for you about uh natural pickles. Okay.
+
+[18:50] I've done uh naturally fermented cucumbers with great success, but I just bought a bunch of uh bunch of different vegetables at the farmer's market, and I want to naturally ferment them all. I was wondering if uh if you have any pointers for other kinds of vegetables, uh what are good vegetables, what vegetables I shouldn't do. Is cooking vegetables going to screw up the process? Can I do any fruits? Just anything you can uh advise.
+
+[19:20] Do you own the Sandor Cats book, by the way? I've heard of it, but I don't have it. Yeah, you should you should get it. It's worth the money on this stuff, and I'll tell you why. Uh he has gone through a and even if you don't necessarily agree with uh everything he says, he has gone through and tested a huge variety of specific uh fruits and vegetables under specific curing regimens, right?
+
+[19:48] Now, so I highly recommend that you go and even actually, you know, if you want to cheat, if you do the Amazon look inside, you can look inside and like find like various tips on on various different things. The thing about cooking um vegetables or fruits beforehand, for instance, doing putting cucumbers in in a in a hot bath, right? It like a lot of what that's doing is trying to kill uh enzymes and bacteria in the or denatured enzymes and kill bacteria in the product that might soften the vegetable before the pickling process is complete or during the pickling process, right? So in cucumbers, uh, you know, that's the one one of the reasons you know that they'll do a a quick boil on them to to do on the outside. And a lot of vegetables are the same way, but like if you're doing something and you want it to stay extremely extremely crunchy, like raw crunchy on something that's hard, like let's say a carrot, you don't want to do it so long that you have a problem.
+
+[20:42] I don't really know if there's an advantage at all, frankly, to boiling a carrot before you pickle it, because I haven't tried. You know what I'm saying? But this is the kind of thing that Sandor cats would probably be great on for looking up. Um the other thing, uh, when you know, if you're dealing with something that has a tendency to soften, right, then you can add some sort of um positive uh uh, you know, uh uh positively charged uh ion to it, like uh calcium or something like this, and that's gonna strengthen the pectin in the cell walls and you know let you have a crunchier product over time. Um what vegetables do you have?
+
+[21:24] Uh I have carrots, Brussels sprouts, beets, onions, and uh broccoli. Yeah, I mean, all that stuff should pickle should pickle well. I've never I've only ever done vinegar pickling on onions, though. I don't know what a traditionally pickled onion. I'm sure it'd be delicious.
+
+[21:41] But all of these things are uh, you know, well, actually, you know, you have onions inside of kimchi, which I've done a million times. Anyway, but but like but these um these are all things that I like highly recommend that you that you just go get his book or do the Amazon look inside because I don't know specific recommendations, and there might be a particular trick for a particular vegetable that I would miss, and why why miss it when you can just look it up on his thing? Does that make sense or no? Yes. Uh you mentioned calcium.
+
+[22:13] What kind of calcium would you recommend? Uh that's a good question. So, you know, the calcium chloride tastes horrific, but you could use it in uh sm in small quantities. In fact, they add calcium chloride to uh canned um tomatoes. That's why canned tomatoes don't break down when you cook them the same way that tomatoes break down when you cook them.
+
+[22:34] Um and they're added usually at a low enough uh dosage rate that you you know you don't taste it with the rest of the stuff. Although, you know, I have a mental block about adding something that you know tastes horrific. But you know, you could add a little bit of uh calcium chloride, or you could uh do a uh dip uh in um pickling lime or add a small amount of pickling lime water, which is calcium hydroxide, uh, to it. Uh that'll increase the calcium and make things more crunchy. That also has a flavor, but you know you want to add a kind of minute quantities.
+
+[23:07] So it's calcium hydroxide, calcium chloride. Uh, and that's why it's called, by the way, pickling lime. You know, this it's the same thing that's used in um in nickstamilization, um, which is known as cal when you're in Mexico, but it's all it's all the same stuff, or Thai red lime paste, all the same product. Uh it's calcium hydroxide, which is basic and very, very dilute, very, very weakly uh uh soluble. So you could do a soak in in a pickling lime solution and then do pickling and that should ferment.
+
+[23:32] Um anything like that, calcium lactate, uh calcium lactate, gluconate is the least flavorful of the or least disgusting of the calciums, but also the um also the uh uh hardest to dissolve and the most expensive. Carrots actually have a high amount of calcium, and the modernist cuisine guys told me once that the inside of a carrot, the little pithy part in the middle, extremely high in calcium. So, I mean, I don't know if any of this stuff's gonna be necessary in something like a carrot, but might be helpful in broccoli, for instance. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[24:04] But uh yeah, but let look tweet us in at cooking issues and let us know uh how this stuff works out and whether you've figured out any good uh tips or tricks because uh I like to I like to hear these things. I will. Thank you very much. Cool, thank you. Uh okay.
+
+[24:18] So we have a uh uh question in from Joshua. He goes, Dear Nastasha, Jack, and Joe and me, Dave. Nice. Nice to be included. Should we answer the question in that order?
+
+[24:29] Uh well, you can. If you know the answer. It starts with Dave. No, but here's the thing. We should answer it in that order.
+
+[24:36] If any of you guys know the answer to this, I don't know, I'll give you some sort of prize. We'll jump in. Yeah? I was recently at Booker and Daxter in my first trip to New York. It was nothing short of incredible.
+
+[24:44] Welcome to New York. Come back again. We like we like tourists to come to New York. That's how we make our money in New York. What do you think this is?
+
+[24:50] What about your tourist lane? Well, back in the day, here's the thing. I used to live in uh in Times Square, right outside of Times Square in the Garment District. Stas, you live really close to it now, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[25:00] And this is not, I don't think this is my idea. I think this goes back to an old uh like New York Times magazine thing from decades ago. But the concept is that you have uh uh a tourist lane where you're allowed to kind of stop pivot, yeah, take pictures, do whatever it is that you do when you know you're in in the city for the first time, and then a kind of a commuter's walking lane, where if you if you s if you slow down at all, or if you swerve or move in any way other than to get out of the then yeah, then you get shouldered instantly. So you're like like viciously shouldered, and you're not upset about it because babe, it's my bad. I was in the commuting lane and I got viciously shouldered.
+
+[25:42] You know, kind of like bikers do on uh on the Brooklyn Bridge. Brooklyn Bridge, anyone's a biker out there and you bike on the Brooklyn Bridge, you're a freak show. You just like confrontation and you just you just hate mellow times because that that's what it would be like. It would be like that. If you put a tour if you put a commuter walking lane into Times Square, uh, you know, you would have the same situation with angry people that you have on the Brooklyn Bridge.
+
+[26:04] Uh and by the way, another oh maybe it wasn't the tourist lane that was the idea, but in the New York Times, they just they basically said that we should have these zones where uh people who live in Manhattan aren't allowed to go, and Times Square would be one of them. And we're we're just not allowed in there because we just get angry, and that's our freaking problem. Like that is not built for us. So that's not for us. Yeah, but they're not for us.
+
+[26:25] You know what I'm saying? It's like it's like it's like you like uh a a Manhattan person is not allowed to get angry at tourists in uh Times Square. That's unreasonable. Like it is there for them. You are just a chump who like happened to plan his commute through the like one of the busiest tourist places in in the world.
+
+[26:43] You're bad. Your fault. Anyway, um that had nothing to do with cooking. Here we go. Uh uh, I was recently at Booker Dax, my first trip to New York.
+
+[26:52] It was nothing short of incredible. The ham and pork bonds were both outstanding, but the drinks were out of this world. Well, thank you, Joshua. I appreciate it. Uh I would consider buying a centerfuge just to make the gin and juice again.
+
+[27:01] You can make without a centrifuge using uh agar clarification. Anyway, while there I tried some orange juice with a lime uh juice acid profile. I have done a literature search and can't find any standard acid amounts in citrus varieties except for citric acid. Any help or a recipe would be great. Also, I used to live in England and I love the English style bacon rashers that are in full English breakfast.
+
+[27:21] Do you know what cut specifically is used and where I might source it? The only butchers near me just repackage what they are sent, therefore no custom cuts. And if there is anything special about the cure, thank you for all of your help, Joshua. Okay. Um, well, so Jack and Joe, you want to try and hit that guy?
+
+[27:38] Uh I got nothing, Joe. I'm gonna take a stab at the bacon one and just say it's uh thickness thing, it's just pork belly. Okay, well, uh I I have to admit, Stas, you got anything on this? I have to admit, uh I've I was I locked in so much on the first part of your question that I forgot to even look into the second part of your question, which is horrible. However, I will say this.
+
+[27:59] Um, and you know, I I you know I like that stuff. Bacon, uh only in the US uh does bacon really mean um just the belly cut of the of the pig. And in fact, you used to in England have a whole uh the whole side of the pig, the flitch would be done uh cured in the stu in the manner of bacon. Uh and I presume that they do uh pump styles but also dry uh dry styles, and like one of the famous ones you look up is Wiltshire Cut or Wil Wiltshire style uh uh bacon, because that's one of the famous cures. I have the actual old, old techniques in a book uh by a guy named Nichols called Bacons and Ham.
+
+[28:38] And uh I did a short review of Bacons and Ham on uh cooking issues that books from 1917. It has a picture of the author Nichols dressed as a uh flitch of I love the word flitch of bacon, uh as a flitch of Wiltshi bacon, uh and it's got a fold out pig with all the parts in it. Uh and if if you remind me, if you send in a tweet next week, I will specifically look up uh how to do the Wilcher style, or maybe Jack and Joe can look it up. Like that's the classic English bacon style, the Wilcher Wilcher stuff. Oh, that's an amazing book.
+
+[29:09] You copied it. It's on the blog. Uh part of it's on the blog. Uh the last time I checked, which was three years ago, Google hadn't um uploaded it. But maybe you guys can see if uh they have uploaded bacons and hams.
+
+[29:19] Because it's one of the all-time great books. The guy has a real sense of humor about bacon, you know what I mean? And he was a producer, and it's just an awesome, awesome guy. Anywho, so as to your first question, um so you say you can only find citric acid, and the reason is is that most fruit juices are uh most fruit juices are specified in terms of the titratable acidity as expressed as grams of citric acid per 100 milliliters of product. That's how it's done, right?
+
+[29:47] And so it's expressed as an acidity percentage of citric acid. And luckily, or not luckily, you know, coincidentally, the majority of acid in uh orange juice is in fact citric acid. And it's usually somewhere in the in the range of 0.8 to uh like 1% in that range, 0.8 to 1% acid for a standard acidic uh orange juice that you have lying around. So I use 0.8. Now, what that means is that there are um eight grams of citric acid in a liter of um in a liter of orange juice, or there are 0.8 grams or close to a gram of citric acid in a hundred milliliters or uh of um of orange juice.
+
+[30:37] Now, lime juice, right? Uh lime juice and lemon juice are both roughly uh six percent acidity. So six percent like so there would be uh a lot more, right? And so uh so lemon juice is almost entirely citric acid. So if you wanted uh orange juice with the same acidity as uh lemon juice and the same f acid profile as lemon juice, you would add roughly uh five grams of citric acid to uh a hundred milliliters of of orange juice, and you'd have roughly lemon juice.
+
+[31:13] If you wanted to do lime juice, lime juice has uh a different acid profile. It is roughly uh it's also roughly six percent, but it's two parts of citric to one part malic. So uh to make lime juice acid out of water, you would take four grams of uh malic acid, sorry, four grams of citric acid and two grams of malic acid, uh, and also a pinch of succinic acid, which is the real thing that makes it taste like quality lime juice, but you know, that's just a secret between all of us. Anyway, uh cicinic acid, very difficult to get. The other two you can just get at a homebrew shops uh or wine supplies.
+
+[31:44] So you add that and you get it. So when you're trying to take orange juice up to lime juice uh acidity, assume that your hundred milliliters of uh orange juice already has in it one gram of uh citric acid. So you need to add another uh three grams of citric acid. Hmm, is that right? Three, four, yeah.
+
+[32:06] Add three grams of citric acid more and then two grams of malic, let it dissolve, and wemo, you have uh orange juice with the acid profile of lime. Yeah? Nice. Yeah. Uh and you needn't worry, by the way, and I'll go more into this uh if you buy, you know, in a year's time when my cocktail book comes out.
+
+[32:25] If you buy it, I'll go into excruciating detail about why uh it's useless to use pH meters to um measure the uh acidity of juices, and that really the the measurement that you want to use, the only thing that's important is the titratable as uh acidity uh as expressed in grams of citric acid per 100 mils. And even though different acids have different uh levels of acidity, that really is uh, you know, to a first order of magnitude, all you need to know because your mouth doesn't taste pH, your mouth tastes how many acid molecules are present. Now the different acids do have different profiles. So lemon juice, which is primarily citric, has a very fast citric attack and then decay, whereas malic acid has a longer, uh a longer resident time on your tongue, and so malic acid tends to uh tends to last for a longer amount of time, but have less of a punch, less of an attack. So they are slightly different, but there you have it.
+
+[33:17] What do you think? Good? Anyway. Uh do we take another break or no? We've got another question here.
+
+[33:22] Oh, what do you got? Some of your general rules of thumb for keeping leftovers and then subsequently reheating them. Well, it depends on the leftover, really. I mean, so like with meats, uh, with meats, you want to make sure that you don't let oxygen hit them so you don't get the warmed over flavor when you reheat them, right? Because that's an oxidative thing.
+
+[33:40] So if you have a meat with fat on it, the fat's exposed to air, you then reheat it, you can get uh oxidative damage to the uh um oils, and you get these kind of cardboard y off flavors, and it's known as warmed over flavor, and that's considered bad. So you want to store that stuff without without uh heat. But you know, if you have a you know, look, in the future, maybe everyone will have a circulator just like sitting around kind of running so they can they can reheat stuff. In general, uh I think an unfortunate thing that happens is we tend to, well, I at home I tend to store everything in quart containers, right? So you'll make a stew, you'll make a soup, you'll make whatever, you'll pack it into a quart container, and you'll put it in your fridge, or I don't know, if you don't have core containers, you pack it into it.
+
+[34:19] And those are relatively difficult to reheat because uh they're really they're thick. So let's say you were to make a stew or some sort of whatever, you know, whatever you want, and pack it in, and then you try to reheat that, well, it doesn't really work. And then you break out, you put it in a pan, and the stuff in the bottom of the pan starts to scorch, right? You've had this happen, right, Stas. And it's irritating.
+
+[34:38] And the only alternatives are to like sit there and nuke it a billion times and stir it while you nuke it to try, which is irritating, right? Uh here's a better solution, I think, is to put your stuff in Ziploc bags and then flatten them when you seal them. Now the entire package, the entire Ziploc package, is only, you know, uh, you know, like a set a couple centimeters thick, maybe, and then you can heat up some water to a simmer, turn it off, throw your packages in. You don't want to boil Ziploc bags because they can hit the sides of pans and break, and they reheat very quickly and very evenly. If you have a rice cooker that is induction fired with induction, right, and it's a grain product that you're trying to reheat, throwing a couple tablespoons of water into the bottom of your rice cooker and then just dumping the product in and breaking it up and hitting the reheat cook cycle is a fantastic mellow way to reheat stuff.
+
+[35:27] That'll work. I mean, should you have to reheat rice? That's the best way, even though I mean the best way is to make fried rice. Fry rice is delicious. Do you like fried rice?
+
+[35:33] Mm-hmm. Yeah, good. Oh man, good. Really? You like fried rice?
+
+[35:36] Thank God. We need a sound effect for when Nastasi likes something. Yeah. Fried rice is straight up delicious. I mean, I don't know.
+
+[35:41] I don't know how you could not like it. It's delicious. Anyways, uh, do you like the egg mixed in or the chunks of egg? Oh, egg mixed in. Really?
+
+[35:48] I kind of like both, so I mix some in and then I cut up, I make some like you know, some omelette style stuff and throw the chunks in as well. Oh, yeah, I like both. Yeah. Uh anywho, so but if you want to reheat it, normal style, rice like I use the Zoji Rushi, which is awesome piece of equipment, induction fuzzy, neurofuzzy rice cooker, 18 cup. And I tell you what, you look at the price tag and you're like 250 bucks for your rice cooker.
+
+[36:09] I use that sucker so freaking much. It is such a freaking machine. It does such a great job on rice. But anyway, also that can reheat things like lentils or drier things like beans that are more difficult to reheat. I mean things that are liquidy beans, you don't really need it.
+
+[36:23] Although I guess it could, I've never used it for that, but it's really gentle, and because it's induction uh heated and has a fairly accurate uh thermal uh control, it doesn't ever scorch. Never ever, never scorch. Never never scorch. Um the other alternative is to spread things very thick and then hit them with super high heat and crust them up. Like, do you like do you like to reheat pasta by like frying the bottom of it to get a real nice crust on it or not?
+
+[36:46] Depends. The problem is if you've overcooked the pasta at all, it mushes and then turns to crap. God, I hate that. I hate that. Do you hate that?
+
+[36:52] I hate that. Uh what do you think, Jack? These good suggestions or no? This is great. Alright.
+
+[36:56] Do we need any more? I think that's good for now. Alright. We need more reheat, reheat uh what what your tailgate would look like as it's kind of tailgate season right now. Oh man.
+
+[37:09] Uh doesn't like football or fantasy. I don't like fantasy. No offense. Like in general. You don't like fantasies in general?
+
+[37:17] Like in in in general. In general, I'm like, that's just a fantasy. No, that's not true. Like, I have an imagination. I'm not a fantasy football.
+
+[37:23] Uh I don't I don't dislike fantasy football. I feel that, you know, uh and look, you know, Star's bringing up personal stuff here. I just feel that we have enough work to do at Booker and Dax Equipment Company trying to get some of our projects off the ground that we don't need to fill the time with fantasy football. I do not want to go. Whoa!
+
+[37:43] I want everyone to see I want everyone to hear Nastasha Lopez saying she does not do fantasy football at work. That was you and Piper sitting together with some sort of stats up, discussing the relative merits of the Manning brothers, and discussing your fantasy football picks as though it was some sort of urgent problem that needed to be addressed. It was happening that it was Thursday. It's like Thursday is the day you need to be a little ready. Wait, which is it?
+
+[38:08] The Thursday's the day you need to be ready and it's really urgent and a big deal, or that you don't do it at work. Oh my god. Fantasy freaking football. Fantasy. I'm like, I'm like, we have real life projects that are going sour, and you're working on fantasy football.
+
+[38:23] Uh so my tailgate, if I was gonna do it, I mean I would bring a bunch of my Sears all so I can finish some stuff off. Uh are you allowed to run your car during the tailgate, or is that considered like really bad news? Bad news, right? That's ruining the environment. It's bad form, yeah.
+
+[38:37] Yeah. So what do you what do people do? Bring a bunch of batteries to run their circulators. I think they bound it off a generator. They run it off a generator?
+
+[38:46] I mean, look, I would probably do like some serious brats and burgers uh with either like a grill or searzole or both. And I would just crank out some super high quality uh products like that. I would take I would make a bunch of carbonated cocktails, and then I get a bunch of uh, you know, probably bottles, or do people prefer cans at the at these things? I I don't think you can bring glass in. So cans.
+
+[39:08] So we would do uh probably some bottle cocktails for me, uh, you know, in plastic bottles, right? Uh, you know, carbonated, because yeah. Although how many people are at tailgates are not driving? Oh, I think they're all driving. Well, hell, I'm not gonna serve in that crap.
+
+[39:23] Well, I think there's some that don't drive. Then they just come with the crew. All right. Well, for the people that can't drink, here's something. If you want beer and you can't drink, I do this hops tincture right now that you can add to seltzer water and it gives kind of a beery feeling to it, but it's a much higher quality product than like I just feel bad buying O'Dules.
+
+[39:39] It just seems weird, right? But anyway, I would probably do a salt, uh salt and ice chilled uh beer section where I get it really accurate and I get it just down to the freezing point of the beer. Just there. You know what I mean? Just right.
+
+[39:52] Super cold. The uh Wow. So the trick is American, like I don't want to hear anything from a beer aficionados saying, well, beer isn't supposed to be cold. American beer is supposed to be cold. It has no flavor.
+
+[40:09] So it's supposed to be really it has flavor, but it's supposed to be cold, right? Ice cold. Ice freaking cold. And actually, ice is only that's about zero. You want that thing slightly more than ice cold.
+
+[40:20] So a little salt and ice in there. Uh so that's how I would probably rock out the the tailgate. What do you think? That sounds good. Yeah, people would come to that, right?
+
+[40:28] Yeah. Burgers, brats. Bratz. Brats. You might hate fantasy football like Nastasia hates vegans.
+
+[40:37] Uh no, because I don't have anything against it when it doesn't intrude on work. I mean, it's not like vegans like knock on my window and say, hey, can you stop working so that we can talk about vegetables? It doesn't happen. Uh, you know. All right.
+
+[40:51] We got a caller. Uh caller, you're on the air. Hey, David Nathan from Richmond. Hey, how you doing? Good, man.
+
+[40:57] Um, I had a question about cooking meat from frozen. Okay. Um I wanted to know what happen what's happening when you're cooking meat from frozen. And is it ever um uh negative quality thing, like if you were cooking uh braise, for instance, like pork cheeks or maybe a pig's head braise. Would that be a good thing or like acceptable, or would you get a really mushy product?
+
+[41:19] All right. Well, I've never done a side by side. I have cooked from frozen on, you know, on occasions on several more than several occasions. Uh I have never done I've never done a side by side. Now there are people, of course, who always sear frozen, like they they freeze the product and then sear it.
+
+[41:39] Uh and there's some people, like the modernist cuisine uh recommendations where they just par freeze the outside with liquid nitrogen, or not parf hard freeze, but only on the surface with liquid nitrogen, then do their sear. And the theory there being that uh you're not gonna overcook the interior of the meat, right? Um, the results are actually slightly different. In fact, Ideas in Food now has a big frozen sear thing that they do, and I don't know if they cook direct from frozen or not. I think they do.
+
+[42:05] But I uh I, you know, there might repeat might be a difference in um what happens when you're cooking on a on a slow cook going you're you're talking in a bag slow, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Because in true you can't really do it traditionally at traditional temperatures because you'll overcook before you thaw, you know what I'm saying?
+
+[42:27] So you can't do it that time. Right. Right. But if you're doing we're talking low temp, good. So we're talking low temp.
+
+[42:31] Uh the only difference I can see is that in a standard piece of meat, a large portion, a standard unfrozen piece of meat that you're cooking low temperature, a large portion of the meat is in the range uh in kind of the middle temperature range between 40 uh 40 uh Fahrenheit, you know, uh fridge temperature and uh cooking temperature, let's just say 55 Celsius for the steak that I do, right? There's a good uh uh there's a good amount of meat in that range, and in that range when the meat is in there, different things can happen. The enzymes can uh help break uh down uh tissues and different reactions can take place. You won't have those reactions take place in a piece of meat that's going directly uh in the bath from freezing because there'll be a fairly fine line between the cook temperature place and the place where it's uh you know zero and very f not zero, but you know, zero Celsius, and very few of those reactions are taking place. So my feeling is and but the the real thing is I don't really know how much of a difference that'll make.
+
+[43:31] My guess is not that much. And if the product, if the product's already def already thawed anyway, now look, if you thaw a product out, so I always tell people they say, like, you know, how's my meat gonna be that's been frozen? I say, well, when you thaw it, look at how much drip is coming out. And a and meat that's been stored poorly or for too long with a lot of temperature cycling is gonna have a huge amount of drip loss out of their meat, right? Right.
+
+[43:55] Uh but frankly, you know, if if you're doing a braise, you're going to be cooking at high enough temperatures that you'd get an equivalent amount of drip loss out of the fresh thing anyway, because you'd be squeezing that crap out when you're when you're cooking it. Now my my only the only caveat with braises in general is that you want to hyper reduce any stock uh or any flavors or any sauces that go in the bag with the braids because otherwise it's going to taste poached when it comes out instead of braised. Not bad, just poached. Okay, and what about traditional? If you were going to do a traditional braise with one of the with you know, like a tougher cut, not in a bag from frozen.
+
+[44:53] Yeah, I don't know. I'm I'd be I'd be more loath to do it, and that but the the question is is how long how long is the window of awesomeness on the cook, right? That's the first thing you have to ask. And then uh then how thick are the pieces and how fast will they thaw out in the simmering water? That's the second, you know, in the in the in the bubbling water.
+
+[45:14] That's the second piece of the puzzle. So if the window of awesomeness, uh, let's say you're doing like, you know, you're getting a pork shoulder and you uh you're making, you know, I don't know, chili or something like this, and you're brazing it out. Uh, you know, it I wouldn't do a whole pork shoulder that way. That's crazy. Now, if you if the pieces if the pieces had already been cut down, you know, such that they you know they're only, you know, you know, centimeter or two centimeters thick, like I normally do when I'm gonna pressure cook, and then you know, you sear them off to get a little crust to have a fawn to reduce anyway, right?
+
+[45:44] That's pre-thawing them a little bit, and then you throw them in. Well, we all know that you know you you have quite a bit of time from the time it first becomes tender till the time it's crap for that to be done, and they'll probably thaw out pretty quickly, so probably not a big deal. You know what I'm saying? Uh yeah, totally. Yeah, so I think it a lot depends, uh, and you just have to kind of judge in your mind uh how long it's gonna take to thaw out and how big of a window you have.
+
+[46:13] Okay, cool. That's really helpful. All right. Good luck with it. Let's know how everything works out.
+
+[46:17] Absolutely. Thanks, Dave. Love the show. All right, thanks. Uh okay.
+
+[46:21] So we have two more quick ones to try to try to get in. We have from uh Parker Cook, who is at Gun Pistol Man. I wonder whether he knows uh Byron Ferguson. Yeah. Not Byron Ferguson.
+
+[46:33] Who's the other no Bob Munt Bob Mundan, the fasted he just died like a couple years ago, the fastest draw in the world? Got a freaking incredible. Died of a heart attack in his car when he was driving. Rough. You wouldn't think that like the fastest draw like to ever have lived, like the world's fastest gun, just in a car, heart attack.
+
+[46:51] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, it sucks. Sucks, right? Yeah.
+
+[46:54] I don't know. Maybe what I don't know, that has nothing to do with anything. Okay. He says, at cookie issues, what are your guys' guilty pleasures? I love making homemade uh sous vide burgers, but on occasion, love a burger from McDonald's.
+
+[47:05] What do you think? What do you got? Give me some good. I think uh economy candy candy. Just total binge.
+
+[47:12] Oh, Nastash is a candy feed. But she's also she also like has some weird hates. Like you hate what flavor of gummy bear do you hate? What color I should say? All except white.
+
+[47:24] You only love white? I can it can eat uh red and green. But you buy sacks of them just for the whites? Yeah, Paper gives me all the whites. Wait, so I've I've seen you you and Piper plow through sacks and sacks and gummy bears.
+
+[47:37] I know. And it's only for the whites. Sometimes the reds. And greens. And greens.
+
+[47:42] Strange. What's yours? Mine? Uh well, first of all, I, you know, for for many, many years I had uh not been to McDonald's, like two decades almost. Uh decade and a half.
+
+[47:56] And then uh I swear to God, once I have kids and I bought a car, and you're rocketing down I-95, or trying to, you're actually stopped in bumper to bumper traffic traffic on I-95, like one of the worst roads. It wasn't like that, you know, 20 years ago when I used to drive it every day. Now it's like just freaking the worst traffic mess in the world. So you're there and your kids are freaking hungry, and you don't want to get off and find something real, and so the McDonald's is there, so I have to admit I've gone to it a couple times recently, and you know what I've always loved at McDonald's is the fake milkshakes. Those fake shakes are freaking delicious.
+
+[48:28] I always feel bad after I drink them, like they make me feel kind of wrong. Not guilty, but wrong. Uh uh, but I love them. I love the texture. They're so I don't even know how they make those damn things.
+
+[48:40] They're made with milk. I know they're actually milk, but for some my whole life I've called them fake shakes. Vanilla, not the chocolate, chocolate weak. Vanilla, good. And uh, you know, or vanilla, the vanilla fake shake from McDonald's.
+
+[48:52] Do you like those things? I haven't had one in a very long time. What about you guys? You guys in the booth like the McDonald's fake shake? I like the McDonald's milkshake, but I heard a rumor, and this actually might be something to look into for next week, that the McFlurry at McDonald's is completely vegan if you get it with Oreos, because there's no real milk in it.
+
+[49:10] I d I do not know that. I will look it up. It's a rumor I've heard. I don't know. It could be completely false.
+
+[49:15] Uh yeah, I mean I uh I will look it up. Uh it you know, I know for a fact that uh the fake shake has milk in it because they they used to put the real symbol on it, the milk symbol, the real symbol. But okay. But uh I don't know about this McFlurry. Isn't Flurry owned by the so doesn't someone else own Fleurry?
+
+[49:29] Well, no, there's the blizzard, which is uh hardy. Oh no, dairy queen, yeah, yeah. Yeah, blizzard, dairy queen. Okay, so listen. So here's the real trick, uh uh Parker.
+
+[49:40] Like, I don't believe in feeling guilty about what you eat. And this is, I think, the primary this is the primary thing. I don't allow anyone to say the word uh to use the words junk food in my house. Uh and the reason is I think that thinking about food as something you do uh to make yourself guilty or not guilty or a as a as a uh a reward for being able to do something that you perceive as bad is fundamentally unhealthy way that we look at eating here in this country. I think that, you know, there is food that I don't allow my kids to eat all the time.
+
+[50:17] There's foods that I don't buy because they're low quality, like lunchables. I don't know, I don't know who the hell does the marketing on lunchables, right? But my kids ask for lunchables all the time. And Booker, my my oldest son, you know, he has he has some some specific issues. But we're going through uh the supermarket, he's like, Daddy, why won't you buy the lunchables?
+
+[50:36] Is it because they're low quality? I'm like, shh. He does the same thing like with they have low they have some low quality meats at my local kind of you know supermarket. And so they're like, why don't you buy the beef here, Daddy? Is it because it's low quality?
+
+[50:48] I'm like, shh. So I think that there's foods that are kind of low quality. They still have nutrients and they can still be eaten, and I don't buy those, but I don't believe in any category of food being junk. Just ones that you should probably eat more of and ones you should eat less of. But I think, you know, we as a nation would do better to think about um to to not think of food that way, right?
+
+[51:11] What do you think, Stuff? I mean, I feel bad when I eat a ton of candy. Yeah, because you're eating a ton of candy. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[51:19] That's like, you know what? When I went to Austin after I did my uh after I did my vegan purge, and I ate nothing but uh uh, you know, barbecued beef brisket and like pounds of it, like, you know, for 24 hours straight, I felt bad. Not because my body had just come off of a vegan purge and I was polluting it with meat, right? But because I ate too much freaking meat. I just ate huge piles of greasy, peppery, barbecued delicious meat.
+
+[51:47] But you know what I mean? So your body's not set up for that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, the the the binging thing and the worried about things. So my kids sit around worrying all the time about when they can get the stuff that's perceived as junk food.
+
+[51:59] So crap on it. I just don't use the term. You know what I mean? Like, Twinkie is not a well-made product. I love them.
+
+[52:05] Twinkies are good. Maybe that's one, but I like a Twinkie. So the maybe well, more accurately, what products are poorly made and I still like them. I like Twinkies, even though they're poorly made. And as an adult, I can taste that they're bad, poorly made, and I still like them, you know?
+
+[52:18] Uh maybe the same like I can deal with those black olives. They're poorly made, but I I still like them. There's plenty of products that are crap that I actually enjoy, you know? I feel that way about like processed cheese queso dip. That stuff is awesome.
+
+[52:33] Queso is freaking awesome. Anyone that doesn't like queso has uh issues. That stuff's straight up delicious on a chip. Come on. That stuff's delicious.
+
+[52:44] I like do you uh do you make your own? Do you buy Rotel? You can fake it with the jalapeno slices chopped up and they and just chopping your own tomatoes, but rotel's the way to go. Okay. Uh on the way out.
+
+[52:56] Uh Christian Spinello from at Eat the Pig. We received your copy that you gave us of uh The Curious Cook from uh Harold McGee. Thank you so much. We're gonna have him sign it uh when he comes in. He's gonna be in pretty soon.
+
+[53:09] End of the week, I think. And then maybe we should use it anyway. I because I have a copy at home. This is our lab copy now, but maybe we can get him to sign it and then maybe use it for fundraising, right? Yeah.
+
+[53:17] What do you think? Because everyone out there should go get a copy of The Curious Cook, his second book, uh, and the one that's unfortunately out of print, and I beat into his head every time I see him that he should put some of it available online because it really gives an insight into the mind of McGee. Uh and Christian also asked, Dave, a while back, you mentioned olive oil from Italy that you liked uh and it was a good deal. Uh Golufo, I believe, uh, with two L's and two S. Can you get it online?
+
+[53:40] I believe you can buy uh it's not sold under his name, but it's in uh DiPalo's DePalo's uh olive oil. Dipalo's is a cheese shop here in Manhattan. If you should come to Manhattan, please go to DiPalos and they will sell some of their delicious olive oils online. I happen to like a lot of olive oils from Sicily, specifically from uh Trapanese. Pronounced Trapponi or Trapani?
+
+[53:58] Trappani. Trapani. Uh and uh they have good salt around there, but they also have really good oils. I specifically like uh certain uh you know olive varieties of like a nutralard and you know things like that. But do you like do you like Sicilian olive oil or do you like other kind of olives?
+
+[54:12] Whatever. So my point is is that uh it depends year to year how the harvest is. So you really want to go to a supplier that has olive oils and we'll let you taste them. May I recommend DiPalos? Cooking issues.
+
+[54:29] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[54:56] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access. Regional Access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the Northeast. For more information, visit RegionalAccess. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in the back of Roberta's Patricia. I said Robert's already. Bushwick Brooklyn. Here as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:42] How you doing stuff? Yeah, we got Jack in the engineering booth. We got uh new new person in the engineering booth, never worked a show before, correct? No, Dedrick. First time.
+
+[0:51] Hey Dedrick, how are you doing? How's it going? Yeah? Longtime listener, first time engineer. Nice.
+
+[0:56] Sweet. So we're gonna have to get some questions and call out the Dedrick. Yeah. And we've got we've got a Piper on the line. Oh, Piper's called in.
+
+[1:03] Yeah, yeah. Alright. So uh well, handle first of all, call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh but Piper's on the line because uh, you know, a listener friend of ours, John Riper, not not Ripper, not repair, like the chef, Riper, as in the fruits we're about to talk about, shipped us a bunch of fall apples from the Washington, and Piper has a taste of it.
+
+[1:28] Piper, how are you doing? Pretty good. Pretty good? Just pretty good. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:33] Oh, real good. Yeah. Well, Piper's getting ready actually for a uh we're doing a uh a tasting of all the Booker and Dax products today at the lab. Is that true or false? True.
+
+[1:42] And we have a we have a big la uh what's it called? The bar meeting today, yeah? Yeah. Nice. I'm not doing any of that right now.
+
+[1:48] Wow. Wow. Anger on the air. I like that. I like that.
+
+[1:52] Sweet anger on the air. So anyway. What? Just salty. Yeah, salty.
+
+[1:56] Yeah, salty man. Yeah. Okay. The family, Piper, Piper's family came over on the Mayflower, and they still haven't kind of washed the salt out of themselves. It's only been like 400 years or something like this, you know, since they came over.
+
+[2:11] Right? Yeah, almost 400 years. No? Yeah, it's coming up big anniversary. Yes, you get he's like the family gonna get together in Vermont and celebrate the uh celebrate the subjugation of our great nation.
+
+[2:21] We're gonna go to the lighthouse, I think. Yeah, yeah. Well, for those of you that don't know, Piper is named after a uh an old relative of his whose only job, only job was to keep the lighthouse running, right? Got drunk. Right.
+
+[2:36] I'm not saying anything about Piper. Well, if we know he didn't flip flip the light on. So either he's completely incompetent or a drunkard or both. How do you not flick the light on? How do you not light a lighthouse?
+
+[2:49] It's your only job. Your only thing you need to do your whole life, flick the light switch uh on, or you know, light it, whatever they did back in the day, they had probably a big Fresnel lens, whatever. I'm not gonna get into it. Anyway, this is the relative that Piper's family chose to name him after, if this gives you any indication of uh of the family. Yeah, okay.
+
+[3:07] Right, yeah. All right. So uh so anywho, uh, we have like a whole bunch of uh apples that uh John sent in. It was something like 15 uh different apples, something like this. Uh some of them are my favorites, like Ash Mead's kernel, everyone knows that that's one of my well, no, if you've heard me yell about apples before Ash Mead's colonel, one of my favorite apples.
+
+[3:27] Um, but some varieties that we hadn't tried before. But one thing I will say, John, John did an excellent job. Now, everybody knows that apples uh they bruise, and when they bruise, uh the polyphenol oxidase enzymes inside the apples cause uh the apples to turn brown and oxidize, and it's no press. No one likes a bruised apple, right, Styes? No.
+
+[3:44] Even, well, of course, you would not like a bruised apple, but maybe perversely you would because you'd like something that's kind of blemished, but you hate blemishes. Anyway, it's too hard to figure out styles sometimes. But uh the point is, so wrap them very carefully individually in bubble wrap, overwrap them and label them, which is awesome. Except uh I think what happened is that the bubble wrap was very effective at keeping the ethylene from the apples inside uh, you know, in close contact with the apples. And so I think we got some accelerated ripening on the apples in the box in transit.
+
+[4:18] Um that means if you've ever uh picked a bunch of apples before, you'll notice that uh as apples are um you know, as apples are getting more and more ripe and tending towards overripe, the all of a sudden the the apples will start feeling greasy, and I think it's because of uh maybe an increase in wax production, but all these kind of when you pick them up, they had the kind of feel the feel of an apple that was a little bit overripe, and some of the texture had gone from not being um as crisp as I know some of the apple varieties is, and it's a lot of the apples that develop some of the kind of floral notes that uh an apple picks up in the later latter stages of ripening. Now, Piper and Nastasha are both um are are both uh what would you say, uh kind of uh ra you know, got me a little angry, right? Not angry, but disappointed, more more disappointed than angry because the they are two of the classic Americans who only like crunchy freaking apples. This is true or false. True.
+
+[5:14] Yeah. True. Yeah. So you only like crunchy apples, even though, like, why should every apple have to be crunchy? Like, like our reaction against non-crunchy apples is because most of the non-crunchy apples that we get in the supermarket are in fact bad quality apples.
+
+[5:29] They're apples that are meant to be crunchy, they're stored too long and they're mealy, or we're used to mealy, tasteless apples like uh Red Delicious, which are horrible. They, you know, mo 99% of the red delicious trees should be pulped instantly and turned into paper or burnt for smoking uh pork or something useful like this instead of producing the wretched quality fake apples that they not fake, but the crap apples. Hell, crap apples, that's a good one, right? Instead of crab apples, well, we'll use that one. Uh but the um anywho, the point is is that there is uh something that is not a mealy disgusting apple and is not a crunchy apple, and uh the term is crumbly.
+
+[6:05] And in fact, one of the ones that John sent was uh Cox Orange Pippin and uh, you know, which is the classic uh, you know, UK uh dessert variety apple, and it is supposed to have kind of a a bit of a crumbly texture in its later stage of ripening, which I thought was quite nice, but I couldn't get these two Giocomos here to uh you know to think outside of the of you know whatever box they grew up eating apples. And I'll tell you what the sad, sad effect of that is. If you go to a farmer's market in the U.S. and you buy one, if you go to a farmer's market here in New York, okay, uh nowadays you can find any time during apple season, which lasts from roughly July until October, you know, uh November, right? When they get on even later for the keeping apples, you can find 20 varieties easily, right?
+
+[6:49] The problem is most of the growers who uh bring the apples will always pick them under ripe because they want them to be crunchy because they know that even theoretically food-educated people like Nastasha and Piper are only gonna like those apples if they're freaking crunchy. And the fact is, if you pick an under-ripe apple, to me, often it's worse than an overripe apple because the flavors haven't developed yet. So a lot of times you get varieties and you're like, man, that tastes thin and acidic and kind of like just a bad version of a Granny Smith, which is a one note kind of pure apple, you know, thin acid flavored apple. And the fact of the matter is is that is that growers are just picking the suckers underripe because uh Americans can't taste around a non-crunchy apple. Okay, I'm done talking about that.
+
+[7:30] But some of the uh Piper's got the notes, which is why I have him on the line. I didn't we didn't call him in just so that I could berate him about his apple taste, right? Yeah, that's the added benefit. That's that's a side benefit that you get. So uh so the ones we got were like uh ambrosia, Arlay, Swiss gourmet.
+
+[7:47] What do we say about the Swiss gourmet? I don't remember what we thought because I hadn't had that one before. Let's see. The uh right now I guess that one does not have one. Which one?
+
+[7:57] Arlay. Arlay. Uh he has to sift through handwritten notes. So while he's doing that, I'll talk about one of the ones that uh I thought was good, but that uh, you know, that these guys had some issues with, and that is the uh the Rubenet, right? That's the one that I liked.
+
+[8:12] That that uh, you know, that according to the documents that we got from John is the the greatest apple ever produced. Is that is that true or false? Is that the one? Yeah, is that the one or not? Uh I believe.
+
+[8:25] No, no, no. A nova? That's what he said about it. He said it was the best apple ever. That's the one he was.
+
+[8:29] I liked it, but you didn't like it, right? No, yeah. He said it was the best tasting apple in the world. I mean, I guess I couldn't get over the texture. No, but you also thought the interesting thing about it was it was an extremely high acid, high flavor apple with some spiciness in it, right?
+
+[8:49] And so they had kind of a funkiness at the end that I didn't like. Right. But I'm wondering whether that was a function of the fact that it hit had um been around for a little while or whether or not like that's part of it. But I think that that stuff would be good juice. By the way, here's another thing that's great about cocktails for apples is if you're using uh an apple for cocktails, then um if you're using an apple for cocktails, texture doesn't matter anymore.
+
+[9:14] You all you have to care about is the acid, uh acid sugar balance, and uh beyond that, kind of whether there's any interesting spicy notes or other flavor notes uh in the apples. So I thought that Rubenette, I would definitely want to get a bunch more rubinette. Did you juice the ones we had yet, or we haven't had a chance yet to juice those? I'll juice them. Yeah, we'll juice the three that are left and and uh check it out.
+
+[9:35] And the Concord grapes we're gonna grab it. Oh wow, but Stas is giving you some extra stuff to do. Don't worry about it, you don't have enough to do. Okay. So anyway, uh anything else you want to say from the uh apple tasting there, or do you you like uh no?
+
+[9:47] No? You're good? Um let's see. Uh I mean artlet was uh is a big hit. I think overall, like um the profile acid and sweetness is really good.
+
+[9:57] Is that one of the ones that's a good keeper, therefore it stays crunchy for a long time, and that's why you liked it? The one we had wasn't so crunchy. No? Um the Mutsu, I think too sweet. Yeah, that's like a Japanese style.
+
+[10:11] The one we had was very high sweetness, almost like uh like uh Fuji with like a low bat, like not much of an acid backbone. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh alright. Well, anyway, thanks so much, John, for all those apples.
+
+[10:21] Super interesting. And we'll, I guess we'll talk more about them as the time goes. But I definitely want to get hold of some of those Rubenettes to juice them out, right? Yeah. Alright, thanks, Pipes.
+
+[10:30] All right, Tom Fisher writes in, Dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. I just made three gallons of aged eggnog. Well, Joe didn't want to show up today. Right. Yeah, he didn't like us.
+
+[10:39] Yeah. Anyway. Uh I just made three gallons of aged eggnog with the following recipe per gallon. Twelve egg yolks, two cups sugar, one half gallon whole milk, one cup heavy cream, one cup bourbon, one cup cognac, and one cup dark rum. Anyway, the mix seems very thin.
+
+[11:00] Will this thicken over time or is there a problem with the proportions? If it will not thicken on its own, what would be the best way to fix it? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Well, that sucker should uh that should uh thicken over time. I've never actually made eggnog because truth be told, I don't really like eggnog.
+
+[11:14] Stas, you like it? Uh-huh. All right, well, why don't we we'll make a batch at the lab and then uh, you know, I'll taste a little bit of it, and you and Piper can pound it as per usual. Just like pounding eggnog. Uh yeah, I'm not a big fan of uh most kind of milky drinks, so I've never worked on it.
+
+[11:29] However, uh I know for a fact uh I was consulted a couple of years ago. Uh someone was doing an article uh on the safety considerations when you're aging eggnog. Um and this is right around the time that Rockefeller you so one of the questions people have isn't necessarily about thickening, it's about safety because you're storing uh raw eggs. You don't cook this stuff. So you're storing raw eggs in the fridge for a long time.
+
+[11:52] Uh and in fact, the interesting thing um that this article that I don't even know if I was quoting it, but I was used as background on, that I was talking with this person at the Rockefeller University, which is a well-known, you know, uh place here that does a lot of uh interesting uh, you know, b bio and and uh microbiology work. Uh in their lab, every year they make uh aged eggnog, right? So they make it at Thanksgiving time and they drink it at Christmas. And no one had ever bothered to test to ensure whether or not it's safe. So they actually took a batch of eggnog, spiked it with salmonella, and then incubated it in the f in the fridge as you would normal eggnog and tested it to make sure that the salmonella was gonna be dead and sure shooting the salmonella is dead.
+
+[12:32] But you don't want to eat it, you don't want to drink it right away because in fact the salmonella is not killed immediately by the uh by the alcohol in it. But over time in the fridge, this becomes safer and safer because uh I think most of the recipes that for the eggnog, they come in when you're aging it at like roughly 20% or a little higher than 20% uh alcohol. And at those levels, uh you're stable from a bunch of things, right? Acetobacter is not really going to grow up there and turn your stuff to vinegar. You're not gonna get um a lot of fermentative action or from yeasts at that high alcohol level, and uh you're not gonna get any bacterial growth uh at that level.
+
+[13:10] In fact, you'll eventually be killing bacteria, which is why the longer that stuff sits, the safer it is. Now, there's still the possibility of a mold growing on top, so you just want to make sure that you know that doesn't happen. At least I'm pretty sure there's a possibility of mold growing on top. But you I'm not sure actually, but that's what I think. Uh now the other side of it is is that you have in that mix a bunch of different uh proteins, right?
+
+[13:31] So you have, I forget, did he use whole eggs or uh or just yolks? Let me see. Um use just yolks. Uh I think some recipes might call for a whole egg, but I'm not sure. Anyway, but you have proteins in the yolk, you have uh protein in the uh milk, uh, and protein in the cream.
+
+[13:49] All of these proteins are destabilized to a greater or lesser uh extent by the alcohol that's in there, and so over time are more likely to agglomerate with each other and thicken the beverage uh than they would in a normal aqueous solution, right? So over time, over slow time, uh at fridge temperatures, you should notice a thickening of uh the product. Now, I don't know whether there'll be ancillary thinning if you store it for you know, like two years or something like this. I don't know. But uh from everything I've read, you know, you will get uh a thickening that happens over the first three weeks, let's say.
+
+[14:22] Now, uh uh simultaneously with that, the products themselves are changing because they're not static, primarily probably due to um enzymatic reactions and just to different uh compounds in there combining with each other and altering their own flavors and knocking each other out. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Good job. So sh stuff should thicken.
+
+[14:38] If it doesn't thicken, give us a holler back and I'll tell you how to fake thicken it with something like uh, you know, a small amount of carrageenin or xanthan or some stuff, but you don't want to goop it up if you don't have to, right? You don't want to goop it up. Don't coop it up. Do you like do you like commercial eggnog? Mm-hmm.
+
+[14:52] See, this is what I love. Here's the thing, right? It's like here here we had this talk last week, right, about the Twinkies. It's like if you grow up liking some crap, then it doesn't matter whether it's high quality or not, right? Because that's what you grew up eating.
+
+[15:07] Is that how you feel about soda too, maybe? Soda? Uh see I okay. So I'm a little weird. I grew up drinking diet soda.
+
+[15:14] There was always diet soda in my house. I can't drink regular soda. It's like it's like drinking candy for me. But I can pound diet soda because there's like no no syrup. And I like I don't I don't I haven't drunk it in a long time, so now it tastes chemically to me.
+
+[15:28] So it's not it's it's not as awesome as it used to be. You know what I mean? Uh whereas I used to pound, pound, pound it, you know what I mean? Like back in the back in the saccharine days, I was pounding it, you know. Like uh I went through saccharine and then NutraSweet.
+
+[15:42] Uh I don't you know I never got used to the Splendor crap. And I won't drink stevia, that stuff's wretched. But I I mean now nowadays, you know, ever since college, when I went to college, okay, look, people who live in the East Coast, seltzer is freaking cheap, right? Like since since I've been a little kid, it's like two bottles for a dollar, vintage seltzers, two bottles for a dollar. It's not big on the West Coast.
+
+[16:02] I don't think Seltzer's big on the West Coast. I think it's an East Coast thing. Like out in the West Coast, they drink sparkling waters. Uh but uh here in the here in New York, we drink seltzer water, you know? And then you get on the airplane and you're like, I want seltzer, and they're like, club soda?
+
+[16:16] You know, you're like, no, I want like ripping New York seltzer water. It's not just New York, but you know what I mean. Uh, and uh that stuff is cheap as hell. So when I went to college, because I'm a I'm a cheap skin flint, some some you know what, right? And so I was like, I'm gonna train myself to like seltzer.
+
+[16:33] I hated seltzer when I was a little kid. Uh I only liked soda and and crystal light. Uh and if you uh cause I because I believe in me. And the uh they what I did is I just sat there and for like a week straight drank only seltzer, and then now ever since then I couldn't couldn't get enough. And then when I went to freegan uh college, which is why I trained myself, not only did they have soda and seltzer on tap, so I didn't need to train myself for the dining hall, not only that, but if you go to the freaking, because I never shopped at convenience stores before because I lived in the suburbs and we shopped at a supermarket, right?
+
+[17:07] So I go there and I find out that in a convenience store they rip you off equally for all kinds of soda, whether or not they put flavorings in it or not. And then when I'm showing up at a store and I have two bottles, right? One that contains just sparkling water, and the other one which contains sparkling water, flavor, color, and aspartame, I'm like, well, I'll be goddamned if I'm gonna pay Canada Dry the same amount of money for putting less crap in the bottle. And so even though I liked it less, I would buy the soda. That is how freaking cheap and demented I am.
+
+[17:36] You are cheaper. Yeah, you should take a commercial break? Sure. Alright, commercial break, coming back with cooking issues. Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access.
+
+[17:49] Regional Access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the Northeast. This community-oriented company was built on a vision of providing ecologically responsible and epically produced food to area consumers. During a typical week at the Regional Access Warehouse, they help move thousands of pounds of natural and grass-fed meat, gallons of farm fresh dairy, and tons of organic and specialty foods from producer to market. Having been in the distribution business for almost 25 years, Regal Access's experience and knowledge make them uniquely equipped to build out their region's food web. Up in the Finger Lakes, Regional Access will continue to champion the region's bounty and work toward a sustainable food system for the entire Northeast.
+
+[18:30] For more information, visit RegionalAccess.net. And we're back! Alright, so calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Got uh some hot sauce in from New Zealand.
+
+[18:54] Do you remember uh like I don't know, it was a while ago we had some questions in from New Zealand about hot sauces, about how to preserve them? Well, it it turns out that Rory M. the person who uh was making the sauce, having the questions from New Zealand, a place that I would love to go, uh, ever since uh when I was uh, you know, wat watching Xena Warrior Princess, great program. Were you more of a fan of Hercules or Xena Warrior Princess? I didn't watch either.
+
+[19:16] Really? Mm-hmm. Why? Because people liked it. Was it on cable, I think?
+
+[19:19] It wasn's not on cable. It was like channels, well, this is channel 11, I thought, yeah. Yeah, out here it's 11, yeah, PIX or whatever. Crap channel. Are you on crack?
+
+[19:27] Listen, like, you know, like Xena Warrior Princess and Hercules. That was the crap channel, dude. Did you be called the WB? Didn't he just be called something else? Yeah.
+
+[19:35] WB. Right. I can't believe that you're calling Xena and Hercules crap. That was that was like that. That was groundbreaking TV back then.
+
+[19:44] Xena, Xena was like, you know, one of those early, like, you know, Wonder Woman was, she was kind of like demure, like, you know, super heroine. Xena, like, was like kicking ass and taking names all the time. All the time. You have no appreciation for that? I do, but I don't care about that.
+
+[20:02] Yeah, I liked the idea of it more than the actual thing. Oh man. You guys are very depressing. Depressing name. Okay.
+
+[20:09] Anywho, uh, Rory dropped off some hot sauce, and we're gonna taste it here uh on uh the air. Uh it's called 90 Mile Mild Capsicum sauce from due north. Although due north, it's interesting. Is it like he's actually due south? He's in New Zealand, and the and the brand here is due north.
+
+[20:25] Weird. Is it due north or do oh north? I can't read very well. Anywho, uh, so the taste of it is mild, it's very peppery, and it reminds me kind of of a liquid form of I mean, I and I hope this is kind of what you're shooting for liquid form of you. You know, peppa do peppers, the ones that come from uh from South Africa, they bring them in there, they sell them in uh in in kind of uh high-end grocery stores of the sweet red peppers that are served in Bryan.
+
+[20:48] Nope. You really don't know what they're holding on? Maybe. I mean, if I saw it. I forgot if you saw it, and oh my god.
+
+[20:53] Okay. So we'll taste that in a minute. But meanwhile, here's the question. As promised to sample the sauce you and your listeners helped out with. All the way from New Zealand.
+
+[21:01] A question for the show. Well, here in New York, I bought one of those flexi mesh bread molds with the aim of cutting it in half so it will fit in a home oven. However, the salesman at JB Prince, I wonder who it was. I think it was Tim? He's not really on the floor that much.
+
+[21:13] Said that this would expose the fiberglass, which would then burn. How can I get around this? Is there any way to seal off the fibers once cut? Happy to try anything. Keep up the awesome work and excuse the Yeah, he says excuse the ghetto note, but I was told that you're not that you have to say budget now.
+
+[21:28] Oh, oh. Is that true? I don't know. Anyway. We've been on the road for five weeks now.
+
+[21:34] Regards, Rory M. Alright, Rory, listen. Fiberglass will not burn. Fiberglass will not burn. Fiberglass won't burn because it's glass.
+
+[21:42] However, uh there might be some problem of fraying at the edges. And it is true that on the edges I've seen, because you've seen Silpat Stas at the at this back at the school that are cut, and they always start getting really brittle and fraying around where they're cut. So there might be something else going on there, but fiberglass itself is glass and hence won't burn. If you want to seal it, because you don't want little fibers pulling out and getting brittle and it fracturing and breaking apart on you, which I have seen happen. Um it might be possible to uh get some adhesion of silicone on silicone and to actually just paint some silicone on it.
+
+[22:16] The problem is you have to make sure that you get food grade silicones. There are, and I don't know if all silicones are compatible with each other. You know what I mean, Stas? And then also you have to be sure that it is indeed silicone, uh, which I think they are. I'm pretty sure the one you're talking about are the ones at JB Prints are the thin brown ones that you can kind of see the mesh inside of.
+
+[22:36] Um but anyway, uh it might be possible. I don't know how there's Teflon tapes that can handle very high heats, but I d uh and they're meant for things like vacuum machines uh on the seal rod. And you might be able to take Teflon tape and put it over the thing, but I'd have to double check to see how high the adhesive temperature uh can take in those things. Uh because that's going to be your main uh your main problem is going to be uh the adhesive tape on the on those Teflon tapes going bad. But I can give a check and then uh give a shout out on the Twitter later because I just go to McMaster and look up the uh the temperature range on the adhesive.
+
+[23:11] Yeah, Stas? McMaster. McMaster. We got some spoons coming in in a minute, Rory, and we'll taste your sauce live on the air. Okay.
+
+[23:18] Um I have a Twitter question, if I can just fast track that through. Doug, go ahead. From Mark Hayes, and it says gluten-free ramen, alkaline rice noodles, possible. Looking for answers. The uh your the way you say that reminds me of this.
+
+[23:34] I don't know if I talked about this on the air. I was in Italy many years ago and they had a McDonald's thing. It was a McDonald's ad. And then in uh Italian underneath, it said, Mick resistid? Mick resist?
+
+[23:49] Anyway, uh it's stuck in my head for like forever. Um so you know, here's the deal. The wr with the ramen noodles, what you're doing is is you're trying to strengthen the gluten proteins, right? And so since there aren't those things in there, I don't think you're gonna get the firming effect because the firming effect from the alkaline uh stuff isn't due to a starch bolstering uh aspect, it's due to a protein bolstering aspect. Because gluten, uh the gluten network gets stronger as things become more alkaline.
+
+[24:22] Um, to a point. Uh now that said, I believe someone else asked about you should text uh pipe no a piper who is like our resident gluten-free expert because he himself is gluten-free and is good at researching things. By choice. Whoa, wow, I'm gonna have to tell him about that bus throw you just did there. But you know, uh because he uh is like that, you think he would work on it, but I'm like, Piper, have you thought of anything good with that?
+
+[24:48] He's like, no, it's all garbage. And then, but you know who uh you know who thanks, you know who is not gluten-free but thinks about this a lot is Mark Ladner from Del Posto. We could ask him to see what he's gonna do stuff or something. See if he's come up with anything, but he doesn't deal with uh with ramen style stuff. Right.
+
+[25:04] He thinks about it. I mean, specifically, like it's the buttons. I'll I'll think about it. I'll see if anyone has done uh any research. Stas, can you send me uh uh like an email to do some research today and then I'll email it back to you and next week we can talk about it.
+
+[25:16] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah? Okay. Uh righty.
+
+[25:20] Uh Josh from San Francisco writes in Hi Dave Nastasha, Jack and Joe. Recently set up my own home carbonation rig with a five-pound CO2 tank. After drinking gallons of soda water, I'd like to try my hand at carbonated cocktails. What are your recommendations for carbonated cocktails to make at home without a centrifuge? I know you mentioned on the last show that you can make your gin and juice recipe using only agar clarification, and I'd like to give that a try.
+
+[25:42] Is clarification absolutely necessary for these recipes? Any other good ones I can try, clarify it or not. Thanks and love the show, Josh from San Francisco. Well, looky. If you're gonna put juice into a carbonated cocktail and you want to get the kind of levels of carbonation that, you know, uh that I like, then you're gonna need to clarify because otherwise you're gonna get just loads and loads of foaming.
+
+[26:05] If you don't want to clarify it and you want to if if you really don't want to clarify, uh a simple agar clarification is not that difficult. It takes only like a half an hour. Stas hates it. Right? She won't do it.
+
+[26:17] It's one of the things that she refuses to do. You know that list grows every day. Every day, the list of stuff that Nastasha will review. I was emailing you about the gluten-free ramen. I was like, you hate clarifying agar clarification.
+
+[26:28] I hate agar clarification. I will not do that. Yeah, but like I'm saying that list keeps growing. You're like, you're like, I've done it. Uh I don't need to do it ever again.
+
+[26:36] Remember all that. She hates the like one time we had we had one time we had a problem, right? And we were doing an event for, I don't know, many hundreds of people. And we did freeze thaw and something messed up, like some somebody messed something up with the freeze thaw, and the freeze thaw was broken. So then we had to all set it and we needed it within like two hours.
+
+[26:57] That was a rancid, rancid day. Remember that? We got it done. Yes. We got it done.
+
+[27:02] It was just a just a damn nightmare. Uh anywho. So look, I mean, you can start out with carbonated cocktails just doing like simple things that aren't clarified. If you like whiskey soda, you can make whiskey soda. I don't happen to like whiskey soda very much, but you can make whiskey sodas.
+
+[27:17] That's not a problem. Just make sure you chill everything. You can then move to what I call fluffing existing cocktails. So just taking tonic and gin, chilling the hell out of them, and then carbonating that uh 42 PSI, if it's roughly minus seven or eight uh Celsius. Uh, but you know, like that's the first step without having to clarify.
+
+[27:37] Then add stuff like lime juice at the end. So if you're gonna do a clarified drink, and and even if you're gonna make your own tonic and or make your own mixers, if you're only adding a small amount of unclarified juice, let's say you're adding a half ounce of lime juice at the end, then just carbonate almost everything and then put the lime juice in at the end, and that's gonna be least damaging to your carbonation levels. Alternately, if you have to add something that you know is gonna foam, only put a small amount of uh product in your bottles and carbonate it like like instead of three times, which was normally what I do with carbonation three times, do it like five, six, seven, eight times and really blast all the air off the little nucleation sites that you have inside of the um of the lime juice or whatever juice you're using. You're never gonna get as low a foam amount as you would in, and therefore you're never gonna get as high a carbonation amount as you would if you um clarified it. But uh the more you get rid because there's there's surface active compounds in the lime juice that cause it to foam no matter what, uh, you will reduce somewhat the amount of foaming you'll get, and you'll get a better result with uh unclarified juice if you just carbonate many, many times.
+
+[28:45] What do you think? Mm-hmm. Yeah. She's like, but I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[28:48] Phil from Bristol, UK. By we have another question. We gotta get to Phil's question before the end. Wait, yeah. Right?
+
+[28:54] My Phil, right? Your Phil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Phil, but not not your Phil, different Phil.
+
+[29:00] Phil from Bristol writes in Hello to Dave, Nastasha, and the gang. A year or so ago I had a kick a kick, I can say kick-ass, can I? Because it's a movie. Mm-hmm. Did you like that movie?
+
+[29:11] I've never seen it. You gave me all the synopsis I needed. Yeah, I didn't see the second one. Uh I had a kick-ass piece of eggplant dengaku uh in uh Barcelona of all places. The miso topping, it's you know, it's the grilled uh grilled X, Y, or Z with the Miso stuff.
+
+[29:25] Dengaku. Um the miso topping itself was great, but what was truly draw jobing was the eggplant. The center was creamy but structurally intact. The skin retained its blue black color. I've been trying to recreate this.
+
+[29:38] So far, the closest I've come is by steaming the eggplant in a pressure cooker initially. This reproduces the cream texture, and the absence of physical agitation goes some way to maintaining the structure. The absence of cooking in oil also improves, in my opinion, uh eggplantiness of the eggplant. Off topic, this pressure steam precook is also great for fish fragrant eggplant, a recipe for which you can get in uh fuchsia Dunlop's um book. I forget which one it's in.
+
+[30:03] I don't think it's Landa Plenty. I think it's uh every grain of rice or whatever. The new anyway. Uh the uh fish fragrant eggplant. However, hitting the sweet spot between perfectly cooked and overdone is difficult because of course you're in a press cooker.
+
+[30:15] Uh and the skin still gets that tired. Okay. Tired, dull brown look. That's a good way to describe it. Like anyone like trying to describe some tired, tired, dull brown look.
+
+[30:25] Can you offer any advice? I know who looked tired. Who? Uh Meredith Viera last night at that award show. What award show?
+
+[30:32] At uh Autism Speaks. Oh, she was there? Yeah. Yeah. Tired.
+
+[30:36] Tired. Wow, that's rough. Why are you hating on Meredith Viera all of a sudden? Hating on Meredith Vieira. It brought to mind her face.
+
+[30:43] What the hell? Jack, you getting this? Are you there? Listening to this like just like hate down, like woman on woman, hate down for no reason. I was a woman.
+
+[30:50] I could tell you somebody else looked tired. That was a man. I'll think about it. Alright, you think about that and try to try to be, you know, equal opportunity with your tired. You know?
+
+[30:58] You know what I used to call? You know what I used to call people who who like look tired? I call them Merle, like Merle Haggard, because Haggard means haggard, but Merle is also haggard looking. You know I love Merle Haggard. Don't I want to hear anything?
+
+[31:09] I love Merle Haggard. Okay. Uh, okay. Uh off topic, this pressure steam pre cook, also great for fish fragrant eggplant, which contains no fish, by the way. It's just like in the sauce that you might also cook fish in.
+
+[31:20] Fish fragrant. Anyway. Uh, however, hitting the sweet spot between perfectly cooked and overdone is difficult, and the skin gets that tired, dull brown look that Meredith Viera might enjoy, according to Nastasha. Uh well, I'm just repeating what she said. I think that's a horrible thing to say and kind of you know inappropriate.
+
+[31:35] Okay. Uh so much so that I had to repeat it. Can you offer any advice? Would using peptin methylesterase or something similar be a way of cooking the eggplant without breaking it down? Would an alkaline solution applied to the skin mean that the anthocyanins maintained their uh would maintain their blueness?
+
+[31:50] And do you have any more advice for getting more eggplantiness out of the eggplant? Thanks for all the great advice down the years and best wishes. Phil from Bristol. Okay, well, listen. When anthocyanins go brown, it sounds like a like a like a like a PSA that you're about to.
+
+[32:04] When anthocyanins go brown. Uh when anthocyanins go brown, that's not usually a pH shift problem, right? pH shift problems with anthocyanins are blue to red. So in a in uh an alkaline situation, the anthocyanins are gonna be more blue, uh, and in uh acidic situations, anthocyanins are gonna be more red. Uh and in fact, uh what you were writing back and you know the Japanese prep that Denkaku made me think about in in Japan, they have, and I think I don't know because they didn't let me see it, but they these Tsukimono, these pickles, they had these, uh do you remember these?
+
+[32:34] Did you have them when we were there, or was it after you when we weren't together? They had those bright blue pickled eggplants at the breakfast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they were bright blue. And Megita's, I asked McGee, I was like, what the hell, Mickey?
+
+[32:46] How do they do this? But I think I was looking up the pH of rice bran pickles, which is I think how those are done, and they're only mildly uh they're only mildly acidic. Like they're fairly close to neutral, so the anthocyanin is gonna maintain their blueness. So these pickles are bright brew. I think McGee said that he thinks that they just add food color into it, they just cheat.
+
+[33:04] But uh those things are amazing, and it might be true that fermentation in that case is also helping to preserve some of the eggplant color with the anthocyanin. Okay, back to where we're back to what we're supposed to be talking about, which is uh the color. When stuff goes brown, it's usually a result of two things. Either you've cooked it to the point where it's brown, made it crispy, browned it, right? Or you have some sort of uh enzymatic issue.
+
+[33:26] And uh eggplant contains a whole bunch of, and we talked about it earlier in the show with apples, polyphenol oxidase enzymes. And that's why you get a lot of browning in eggplant. Typically, what I do when I pre-treat an eggplant, or when I do when I treat an eggplant, I'm gonna fry it or do anything to it, is I'll throw it, uh, and I like eggplants dense because usually I'm doing Italian style preps where I'm gonna bread them and fry them because if you don't like eggplant parm, there's something wrong with you, right? That stuff's delicious. Right?
+
+[33:56] Eggplant Parm. I make a good eggplant. Hey, listen, let me say uncooking issues. Like like like you want like you want like like through the hoop, like down to your arm slam dunk kind of a situation, like elbow slam with stas. Any any hearty Italian, any hearty Italian fare.
+
+[34:14] What do you think I was gonna say? Sour bench kids. Oh, yeah, but only certain colors. But I mean like any hearty Italian fare that's properly done, as long as you cook it right. Nastash has no patience for uh undercooked or overcooked pastas or results.
+
+[34:27] I don't like undercooked pasta. But not risotto. You don't like undercooked risotto. Undercooked risotto is an abomination. You like undercooked pasta?
+
+[34:35] You like the pearl in the center? Mm-hmm. You're a gross human. I thought we had this discussion. Are you serious?
+
+[34:41] That's the way Mark cooks his pasta. No, I've been to his restaurant many times. He cooks it until it just. You know what? I'm gonna give you a feedback and a bag of raw pasta.
+
+[35:03] Let's have him make what I like and let's see what you think. If it's if it's if it's okay. We can do an on-air pasta tasting, right? Yeah. He hates undercooked risotto, right?
+
+[35:12] If you undercook risotto, you should die. That's gross. Wow, that's strong. Well, I mean, we we're all gonna die. But I mean is when you when you die, you'll be held to task for it if there is an after.
+
+[35:22] You know what I mean? They'll be like, you undercooked risotto. That'll be like one of the things in the list. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[35:30] You stole that twinkie, you undercooked risotto. Uh anywho, so uh what were we talking about? I don't remember. What the hell are we talking about? Oh, eggplant palm.
+
+[35:40] Uh uh, eggplant. So anyway, so if you're like, I think the main problem is is that you need to uh cook the eggplant in an absence of oxygen and relatively quickly in order to preserve the color. This is my guess. I wasn't able to find any actual scientific literature on it, but that is my guess. So uh, you know, your pressure steaming, uh probably the issue is is that oxygen is getting to it as it's being as as the pressure, as the steam is coming up, uh oxygen's getting to it before this stuff.
+
+[36:07] I mean you might want to try doing a pre-plunge in boiling water before the thing is cooked, just to set the anthocyanins at the skin and destroy the polyphenol oxidase enzymes. The problem there is when you cut it, if you haven't inactivated the enzymes all the way through, my guess is that you uh you'd still have the issues because the enzymes, if any of the enzymes that aren't inactivated get to the skin, this that stuff will happen. I think. I have to do some tests. But anyways, uh what I was getting to is if you have a vacuum machine and you put and you s and you right before you're gonna do it, you just slice the eggplant, let's say, into kind of large pieces, like not grilling pieces, throw them in a vacuum bag, add some ascorbic acid to it, not a lot, you don't want it tart, but just to get rid of some uh to you know, have its antioxidant power be high before it didn't suck a vacuum on it, the flesh will condense and go bright green uh as it condenses, and the skin will maintain its color, and then if you blanch off in the bag, you should be able to maintain a perfect color on the eggplant.
+
+[36:59] Then you can cut it out of the bag and do any finished cooking you do. You will affirm the inside because you're gonna get rid of all of the um air that's on the inside. You will have if you salted it right when you threw it in the bag, you'll also have gotten some of the liquid out that makes it soggy. Uh and lastly but not leastly, because it's condensed, it will be more eggplanty. What do you think?
+
+[37:23] Good. Yeah? Is that an answer? Yeah? Eggplant palm?
+
+[37:27] It's a lot of work. We our vacuum machine works, right? Oh, you mean just vac it and then take it home and fry it off or whatever? Why? Do you have to cook dinner for someone?
+
+[37:34] No. Me. Well, good news about eggplant palm, sucker keeps. Oh, let's try uh before we get kicked off the air today, because we have to leave at strict one o'clock. Why don't we taste the uh 90 mile mile capsecum sauce from due north in New Zealand?
+
+[37:49] There we go. There, take now. Remember, it's on a sweeter side. It's not like a hot, it's not like a hot pepper sauce. It's like on the sweet side.
+
+[37:57] It's good. Really good. It's good, right? It's like an intense pepper flavor, but like some sweetness. It's really good.
+
+[38:04] I like it. Uh Rory, I think that you make a good product. That's a hat trick of things Nastasia likes too. Yeah, you want to hey Jack, you want to come in here and try it? Do you have you tried peppa do peppers before?
+
+[38:13] There's a definite note of that kind of peppa do kind of flavor. Let me try some. Yeah, there's a sugar. I don't know a ton. I don't know what the sugar ratio is.
+
+[38:19] It's a sweet, it's a sweet pepper sauce. Um but it's got like a next question. Mild heat at the end. Get to the what? Next question.
+
+[38:29] Keeping me on task. On task. Alright. Uh, wait. Oh my god, some of the questions are gone.
+
+[38:35] Oh, here they are. Okay. Um The Evening Bruise. What do you think, Jack? Pretty good.
+
+[38:40] Yeah? Yeah, nice. All right. Uh, the evening bruise writes in and says, How do you make your hop tincture and how do you use it? So uh we make a hop tincture, and all we do is we take a very high um uh an uh a hops with very high alpha acids, meaning very bitter, um uh roughly 13%.
+
+[38:57] It's called Simcoe. I also happen to like the aroma of it. We take 15 grams of that, half ounce, and we put it into shoot, I think it's 250 mils of uh vodka, 40% vodka. I put uh throw that in an ISI whipper, put two chargers on that, uh so it's a high pressure, shake the hell out of it and just let it sit for a half an hour, vent it off, and then pour it out. Now, here's what's interesting about it is that I was extremely nervous about this thing because it's so so hoppy uh about it getting skunked.
+
+[39:27] But the fact of the matter is it doesn't get skunked. Like I haven't had it skunk out. I'm gonna run one more test on it because I have another one to see whether the flavor is changed if I uh actually heat it in the ISI for a little bit. Maybe I can uh uh do some more like isomerization of the uh of the humulones in there and then maybe it would skunk out later. I don't know.
+
+[39:47] I'm gonna run some more tests. Uh but I also you know I I like it in in drinks and seltzer, it's good. I like it. It's good. It's a good product, right?
+
+[39:55] Okay, now uh Jason Molinari at cured meats puts in a comment about the refrigerator and humidity that we had before. Uh and he says, at cooking issues, fridges run about 30% relative humidity at 38 degrees Fahrenheit, which means it can hydrate or slash dehydrate depending on the item, as we had suspected on the air. Uh, you can dry panchetta in the fridge, but it will ruin Bridhole. Right? Yeah?
+
+[40:20] Don't care. Uh M. Nielsen writes in. Uh uh, he is at OS WebGuy. At OS WebGuy.
+
+[40:28] Uh, at cooking Issues, I noticed you keep mentioning Sandor Katz's art of fermentation. Do you have any other required readings? Thinking of gifts. I said I would think about it and get back to it. But here's the here's the issue.
+
+[40:39] Uh like a lot of the books that I keep going back to aren't necessarily recipe books. It's just books that I've fallen in love with for one reason or another. Uh, I think that for GIS, a really amazing gift, if someone has the bookshelf space for it, is to go on uh eBay or ABE books, because it's hard to buy them, they're expensive when you buy them as a complete set. There's I think 20 in change volumes. But the entire Time Life, uh, the Time Life Foods of the World series from the late 60s to early 70s is still one of the great achievements of uh kind of you know, back in the day, Time Life had all these libraries like Library of the Wild West, Library of the Air War in Europe, library of the blah blah.
+
+[41:23] You know what I mean? But this is really, really amazingly well done. And in and and I make it a habit, kind of a dumb habit. People are like, what the hell are you talking about? Anytime I meet someone from a country uh that uh where that's published on one of those books, I'm like, hey, you see the uh Time Life uh foods of the world about your uh by your homeland there.
+
+[41:41] Yeah? You like it? And they're always like, yeah, you know what I mean? They uh they always like it, which is a really good sign. It's got a lot of documentation, amazing pictures.
+
+[41:49] They hired amazing writers. It's not a recipe book, like the recipes are actually in a whole separate series of volumes that you have to get, little spiral bound guys, but just really fantastic cultural document, and I go back to that all the time. Another wacky one that's perverse is uh oh my god, the name of it just went out of my head. I always just call it Pella Peleprat. It's the uh art of modern French cooking or modern or art of whatever Pella Pratt is what everyone calls it.
+
+[42:12] And there's a bunch of different editions. The addition that's from uh I think like the late 70s or early 80s has like the most over the top weird color photographs in it of like just demented preparations. Love that sucker. I go back and look at that all the time at the pictures. And on that same note, because they came out by the same Engl American or English publisher, is um oh my gosh, what's it the heck's it called?
+
+[42:35] My brain just got erased. Is uh the international buffet book. It's the same thing, it's but it's like it's like all of the all of the highly touched food that no one likes anymore, like lobsters that are split open on the back, sliced, gelled with aspic, and like layered all over the uh lobster, but like just like you know that billions of tiny hands have touched tiny, I don't know why they're tiny, have touched like the the lobster uh everywhere and like like just aspics and gels everywhere. And I love looking at that just for like straight up crazy, crazy talk, right? Um I mean, obviously on the newer side for what you know I do for a living, modernist the modernist cuisine book, you kind of have to go get that, right?
+
+[43:11] I mean, if you don't have it already and if you have a lot of money. Um let me think. I'll think I'll think of some I'll think of some more of it. Like these are the ones that like whenever I want inspiration, I go and look at those time life books because I can basically you know cherry pick from around the world just by going to it. Then when I have like a you know, question a specific question on specific problem, like tofu, I haven't gotten the new one yet, so I go to shirtleaf.
+
+[43:33] Uh fermentation, I go hit cats. Uh oh, duh McGee's book. I'm assuming anyone that listens to this already has on food and cooking, right? You gotta have that. That's like the prime reference for most of the things uh that I do for hydrocolloids.
+
+[43:45] If you're you know, friend is a sciencey or nerd like that you want to get for uh handbook of hydrocolloids is pricey, and they have a newer edition of it, so I think it might be up to date. It wasn't up to date for a while, but I think they might have a new edition that's up to date. Um I'll try to think of some more. Maybe we'll give a couple book recommendations each time. That'd be fun, Stas.
+
+[43:59] Mm-hmm. Maybe you want to give like a like a mini like book, like just book review thing kind of like not review, but like books that are good to get. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[44:11] We'll do that. Uh anyway, hopefully that gets you uh started. Um Phil's question. Not yet. What?
+
+[44:17] No, I'll go to Phil's question because we're gonna get kicked off the air pretty soon. So why don't you why don't you give uh Phil's question for me since Phil's question is what can you substitute for tilapia because all other fish is so expensive? Yeah. Uh well, uh you can just substitute dirt. Or you can substitute, I mean, tilapia, okay.
+
+[44:38] Look. Uh everybody knows that everybody hates tilapia. Does anyone like tilapia? I don't think so. No, right.
+
+[44:47] Nobody likes it, right? Yeah. Jack, you like it? Nope. It's bad, right?
+
+[44:52] It's bad fish. It's bad fish. Here's the thing. You know how there's the you know how there's like this one you got from Taiwan. Remember that label I sent you?
+
+[44:58] Oh, I don't know. You know it's just garbage. Here's the deal. You know the old phrase they are you are what you eat. And in some ways that's true.
+
+[45:05] Like take take the pig, for instance, right? So depending on what a pig eats, right? The fatty acid uh component of the of the fat in a pig will change based on what it eats. So if it eats uh you know a lot of nuts, it'll have an oilier fat base in it in its meat, and the fat structure will change. If it eats a lot of, you know, uh grain or corn, it's gonna have a firmer fat, right?
+
+[45:28] Uh because in essence, uh in a way, uh it is what it eats. However, right, the pig is kind of uh is a gift from the heavens in that it takes garbage, right, and doesn't like make itself into garbage. It's not a pig is not a walking piece of garbage. A pig transforms uh garbage into amazing, delicious food, right? It's kind of like it it is an it is like the uh it's like an alchemist.
+
+[46:00] It touches lead and turns it to gold. It touches apples that are full of worms and have fallen on the ground and are useless and turns them into delicious pig flesh, right? It takes the whey slop that's left over from making parmesan and cheese and turns it into prosciutto uh deparma, right? It takes whatever crap you have lying around and turns it into pig meat. And I don't see how anyone can argue with that, right?
+
+[46:25] That's straight up delicious. Now take the tilapia on the other hand. The tilapia is the living, breathing, swimming embodiment of filth and garbage. It lives in filth and garbage and is filth and garbage. There is a uh a compound called giosmin, which tastes like dirt and is produced by the bacteria that live in the filthy, filthy, fresh, crappy pools where they grow this monstrosity of a fish.
+
+[47:00] The very best thing you can say about a tilapia is that it has no food no flavor at all. You're like, you're like, man, that was a good tilapia. I couldn't taste it at all. Right? The other thing you can do with tilapia, uh with anything that's it kind of contaminated with geosmine, like for instance, certain catfish, is if you acidify the hell out of it, right?
+
+[47:21] Then that kind of takes away some of that geosmind flavor. G geosmith, whatever you pronounce it, takes it away, right? Somewhat. Uh, you know, masks it actually chemically uh removes the smell of that stuff. Uh so people are like, tilapia is great in the fish taco.
+
+[47:36] Are you sure it wasn't all the freaking toppings that you put on the taco and you could have put anything like a human finger in the taco and you would have thought it was good. You know what I mean? Had nothing to do with the tilapia itself. It has to do with all the crazy toppings you put and this is an argument I have all the time. This is why people who make uh meat analogues that are poor quality.
+
+[47:55] I mean people are working on a high end meat analogs. I'm not ranking on them, but you know one of the arguments of uh people who uh make meat analogs is well people can't taste the meat anyway, right? So what they're shooting for is exactly the kind of person who is okay with the tilapia because they don't really care about the flavor of the product itself because they're just gonna sauce the beeg they're gonna overcook the hell out of it anyway. So any quality that's gonna be there is gonna be destroyed. And then they're gonna sauce the bejesus out of it so that it doesn't really matter what the substrate tastes like.
+
+[48:25] So yeah it might as well be texturized vegetable protein underneath it. Now it is now I've never had texturized vegetable protein with the exact uh texture of a fish but at least texturized vegetable protein doesn't taste like dirt. Uh another thing you could do is Jasmin is a uh or Jasmine however you pronounce it is uh is a uh a component in beets so if you want you could just grind up some beet puree don't peel it though because you want to get most of that dirty stuff in right puree that sum gunk you can cook it puree it dehydrate it to a powder and then just encrust the tilapia in more dirt beady flavor right? Right? Yeah, tilapia.
+
+[49:01] You know, here's the thing. You know what tilapia is gonna be good for? Like, here's the good thing. Tilapia, like the fact that it can grow in filth and garbage, uh, makes it really great for these like aquaponic culture things where the plants have their roots, and then they in the thing and they just feed garbage to tilapia. tilapia eats the garbage, produces tilapia, i.e.
+
+[49:24] garbage, and then poops, and the poop is eaten by bacteria, which then make the nitrogen from the from the tilapia poop into stuff that the plants can uh eat, right? And then the plants grow, and then they have like a uh a greenhouse over it, and they heat the whole sucker with compost so that you can live in Wisconsin somewhere and produce like like zillions of pounds of poor quality food in uh but you know, whatever. It's new nutrition-wise, it's not poor quality, just taste, in like a box without a lot of inputs. And that's very interesting. So it seems to me that tilapia will rule the world when we're colonizing space, and we're all living in kind of microgravity, like centripetal gravity uh uh space stations that are spinning to keep the water on the outside of the space station so that the tilapia can be spinning around.
+
+[50:08] And they need these kind of self like made systems. Like, you know, when you go to the museum in natural history and they have those giant glass spheres that have like three brine shrimp in it, and like the little plant, and they just it's a constant cycle. So when we're living like that, then tilapia is the way to go. Otherwise, substitute dirt fill cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org.
+
+[50:38] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[51:02] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:36] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Burner's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1, something like that. Hey Stas, how are you doing? I'm doing alright. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and the guys in the engineering booth. How you guys doing over there?
+
+[0:52] Just just Jack today. Just Jack. Old school. Old school. You know, you know, no offense to anyone else, but you know.
+
+[0:58] I like just Jack. Feels good to have the just Jack. Thanks, guys. Yeah, Jack Jack's the man. Jack Insley, aka the man.
+
+[1:05] You got anything uh good going on the Heritage Radio Networks that we need to know about? New website launch. Yeah, when is that gonna happen? It's up. It's it when did it go up?
+
+[1:13] Uh we had a little soft launch happen last week and it's up now. Uh we also have our own kind of like storefront in the iTunes store now. So you can see Heritage Radio Network has its own kind of channel. And right now on the front page, they're featuring our Alice Waters Evolutionaries, kind of Alice's life story, is on the front page of the iTunes Podcast Store. Oh, nice.
+
+[1:34] Now that's fun. Let me ask you a question. Do we sell anything other than us? Nope. No, all right.
+
+[1:38] That's why you should donate. Yes. Yes. Uh all right. Well, that's good news.
+
+[1:44] I'm gonna go check that out. And we did you already tell these guys like like like a little blurb on what they're gonna get out of the new website, what it's gonna do that they couldn't get before from the heritage radio netw department of in-house produced content. So we've got six sort of categories pleasure, health, news, opinion, business, science, and technology. And we're both from the programs weekly and then just from scratch in the office putting together in-house content. So kind of transitioning to more news, more reporting, um, stuff like that.
+
+[2:16] It's really good stuff. Nice. Uh all right then. Well, uh, let's take some questions. Call in your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[2:24] That's 784972128. And just so you guys know, I can't personally check my tweets during the uh show because I'm talking during the show. So if you have questions you want to tweet in, if you don't want to call in, tweet it to at Heritage Radio Network. Is that right, Jack? It's at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[2:40] Shows what the hell I know. Yeah. You know what? Close. How's it that I know nothing?
+
+[2:44] How long did it take me, Jack, to memorize our telephone numbers? Yeah, it's still a process. Took like a like a year and a half for me to memorize our telephone number. Well, whatever. So Devin Stone tweeted in uh at Cooking Issues, Trader Joe's sells most of their protein in vacuum bags, some clear, some black.
+
+[2:58] Are they low temperature safe? Devin, I wasn't able to find anything uh off the bat on the composition of the Trader Joe's uh bags, and I dreaded, but I will do during the next week, uh fighting my way up the corporate ladder to find a human being who knows what the hell's going on. But everyone knows what a pain in the butt it is to deal with corporations like that, right, Stas? But I will tell you something about Trader Joe's. Uh I you know, Stas, what are your feelings on Trader Joe's?
+
+[3:20] They're okay. They're well, what do you really think? I don't like their Hawaiian shirts. You don't like their Hawaiian shirts? Yeah.
+
+[3:26] Well, you know, I always kind of like I was fine with Trader Joe's. I had no problem with Trader Joe's uh until I found this out. You ready for this? Are you familiar with the Bread and Life? Uh Bread and Life is like uh they provide food for people that don't have it and they take donations.
+
+[3:38] They're they're here in Brooklyn, actually. Yeah, yeah, you know Bread Joe. Good friends of the station. Yeah, good friends of the station. Well, Jack, you might be interested to know this, and I'm not telling anyone to change their buying behavior based on this, but uh a lot of the big food purveyors uh around, like Whole Foods and whatnot, right?
+
+[3:53] They will give their uh like the day before their stuff is gonna expire, they'll they'll take it off the shelves and they'll give it to organizations like Bread and Life who will instantly cook with it so that they can get it out before the expiry date, right? And then they're not throwing away or wasting all this food, right? That makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:10] Trader Joe's doesn't because they think it's too much of a hassle. They specifically destroy the food, throw it out in dumpsters instead of giving it uh to Bread and Life because they think it's gonna be too much of a hassle. So that I know Yeah, so I know some of the the higher ups at Bread and Life uh you know have stopped buying at Trader Joe's, and uh, you know, my wife encourages me to stop buying a Trader Joe's. I haven't done enough research yet, but I mean I'm hoping this is just that's just like some sort of like corporate like brain uh w whatever you want to call it on the air, and that they maybe could change their policies. But if anyone who's listening knows anyone at Trader Joe's and wants to, I don't know, comment on that or have maybe figure out a way to change their policies, because literally they the Bread and Life people were told, it's just too much of a headache for us to give all this free food that we're gonna throw away to all the people who need it.
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+[4:56] It's terrible. That sucks, right, Jack? See, now with our in-house kind of production, I'm I'm thinking we're gonna have to call Trader Joe's and get a comment, follow up on this. Yeah, because that that's that's crap, right? We'll report back to you.
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+[5:07] That is crap. That's crap. I uh that that is what we here at the Heritage Radio Network like to refer to as a load of crap. Um, okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is John Doe.
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+[5:18] Hey, how you doing? I j I was gonna uh call out one of your tweets there that you uh let me see if let me find it here. There it is. Uh finally made fish sauce cured bacon, freaking delicious. I saw the picture, so uh uh tell us about it.
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+[5:30] So um basically uh Piper gave me the um base brine and uh I just replaced the the salt with fish sauce and it was actually around um eight percent. So then um I just boosted it a bit to get to the twelve and a half and then just added brown sugar and water uh to the appropriate percentages to to get the the brine. Then uh uh left it in the fridge, uh probably a little bit longer than I should have. So it was a little slightly oversalted, but I compensated by doing just like uh a couple stages of uh dilution and and just water. Um that's actually one of the questions I call I I've been calling you about, but uh so then uh, you know, tried it for a few days to build the pellicle and then just smoked it um for a couple hours with uh mesquite and it came out really awesome.
+
+[6:25] Um but the funny story is um when I had first cured it when I had disc when I had discovered that it was way too salty, I pretty much stunk out the whole house. Uh yeah uh people were pretty upset with me, but that was that was funny. It was still very good, but it was just really powerful and and um somewhat inconsumable, but I mean you could put it in stuff, but then I just did the dilution and that ended up working out. So actually my question is um is there some way to come up with like um a concentration such that you take care of you know the botulism, all the all the yeah, you know, all the bad things that come along with it without having to figure out the exact time, like basically leave it in there indefinitely uh without having to worry too much about you know it being under or over salted. Is there some sort of cross um basically a crossing between optimal flavor and um and handling all the the microbes that you don't want in there?
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+[7:30] Well sure. I mean you I mean the the things like botulism you're gonna take care of with uh nitrites. Did you add nitrites to it? Yes, I did. Yeah, okay.
+
+[7:38] So I mean like and the nitrite concentrations are small enough. You know, you don't have to use uh were you using what were using a prague powder or were you using like a salt with nitrites in it? I was using uh what's uh what's referred to as pink salt. So I think it was salt with all the nitrates in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[7:55] So in other words, you don't need to add enough uh uh s like that stuff's not gonna radically increase the saltiness of your of your product because you're not gonna be adding that much relative to the quantity of what would normally be regular white salt to it, right? Okay. So the you know, it's the pink salt that's gonna take care of the the beasties that you're really worried about, like you know, the uh the ones that are that uh will grow perhaps if you were gonna cold smoke or hold it, right? So you're you know, so like th that's gonna take care of that stuff. And you said you added extra salt to the fish sauce, right?
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+[8:24] Yeah, it was an eight percent, so I brought it up to twelve and a half, which is I believe to be the uh the the basic uh brine for a bacon. Yeah, well I mean you can do various different brine concentrations. I'd have to look up exactly kind of what the the minimums are, but you're not holding it for a long time. You know what I mean? Right.
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+[8:41] Uh so is I mean if the nitrite levels are are high enough to inhibit things like botulism and to get a good pink cure, which I saw the picture, sucker's pink, right? Yeah, yeah. So I mean like that's gonna take care of of of a lot of a lot of those problems. Another thing, um you're saying that the it was unbearable the salt or the aroma. Have you tried did you try precooking the fish sauce a little bit to blast off some of the volatiles?
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+[9:03] Um well what I had done was I just Yeah so what I had done was I I took it's you know once it came out of the brine I just took it out immediately to cook it just to taste how how much salt penetration was in it. So I think I had some excess it was still pretty wet. Right. So that that's why a lot of you know it it was pretty stinky so no I mean did you did you cook the did you like boil the fish sauce a little bit before you used it as a brine. Oh no I didn't I I just did it straight.
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+[9:32] Right that might mellow it a little bit um in terms of how it smells after it comes out. Uh I have never done any side by sides but it's always been my mental perception when I that heated fish sauce tastes very different or smells very different from unheated fish sauce. But that could just be because once it fills up the kitchen and it's combining with the ingredients that it just smells totally different once it's combined. I don't know. But you know it's always been my feeling that like something's volatilizing off of the fish sauce that kind of rounds it out and makes it um less offensive to the people around who might not love fish sauce as much as we do.
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+[10:10] That's a fair point. Yeah I would consider that yeah I mean it might be it might be hard to love fish sauce as much as I do uh I mean you know and be you know from the east coast of America because that stuff is just straight up delicious. What brand of fish sauce did you use? Um I forget what brand it was but I I found a I found a brand that um didn't have any of the uh uh the fake hydrogenated vegetable proteins. Yeah, I I can I can follow you I can uh shoot you a picture of it.
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+[10:38] I forget exactly which brand it was. I think it was the one with the baby on the front. Oh yeah, I forgot the name of that one. I've done a I did once uh like years ago, like four years ago or something, I did a side by side of a lot of the ones that were available in kind of the local markets around uh lower Manhattan where I live. And uh I mean as anyone who knows listen to me I've there's a lot of Japanese fish sauce out there that I love and there's one that's not really available here that's made with uh ishiri and there's a bunch of different ishiri's uh and one of them is called uh one of them's from squid solely from squid guts and that sucker is amazing because it's extremely meaty and that's the one that I think tastes as close to uh Sally Granger who's the um she's the fish the Garam Roman fish sauce expert and she's done a lot of recreations of uh recipes in large tanks as part of her PhD thesis uh on fish sauce and she's done a lot of work with a peachist and she and her husband did a translation slash adaptation of a pecious for uh you know I don't know maybe seven eight years ago that is I think the best one that's available in terms of uh historical accuracy of cooking because it starts from the it starts from the uh the premise that uh they actually meant what they said when they were writing as opposed to some of the earlier like the Dover publication who's I forget who's the translator on that just you know kind of plays fast and loose with it's assuming that we moderns know better about cooking than they did back then when it's always better to assume that someone who's writing about something is writing about it well you know but uh anywho so I tasted her fish sauce uh a number of years ago that was uh the garum sociarum which was made from uh mackerel guts in her case and aged for I think two or three years.
+
+[12:12] And that was very close to this one Japanese ishiri and the difference between it and normal fish sauce is it had much more of a kind of canned meat, hammy, bacon-y flavor than um than your standard fish sauces. But of the standard fish sauces, I mean the ones that a lot of people like, like for instance, like the three crabs or whatever it is, is like super doped with uh with uh you know isolates, protein isolates. Um the one that my favorite uh is uh Tarose, which isn't the one with the baby on the front, but that of the commercially easy ones to get, I like that one. I believe Tarose is out of Thailand, but I'm not sure. I never know.
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+[12:49] You know, ever every every everyone from uh you know from that area of the world argues about who's got the best fish sauce, you know. That of course when are you gonna do? Uh yeah, so I wouldn't I mean like we I can look it up, but I wouldn't worry about like uh it being unsafe with having just the eight percent on a on a on a brine like that. Uh and then you know, then you'll get you know relatively more fish sauce flavor versus salt flavoring, which might be good. And try I would just do a side by side where you just uh uh boil a small sample of fish sauce and then taste it versus the raw just side by side after they cool to see what happens.
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+[13:23] Okay. Um just one more quick question. On the you know how I did that ice cream cone with the microwave cake? Yes, also on my tweet, in case you guys ever follow my tweets. Um so the um the one question I had was we were trying to just uh draw patterns on a plate or be able to build you know little structures to be able to put other dessert things next to it.
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+[13:46] Um and I was wondering if some sort of holly hydrocolloid or some sort of thickener that could add to it that would still allow the the uh the boxing effect of microwaving um but hold more structure. Is there uh is is there a lot of dairy in the cake? Um no, it's actually just um I think it ends up being half a stick of butter, four tablespoons of butter. Right. Um it's mostly uh it's mostly egg and then um uh egg white powder.
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+[14:15] If you prehydrate methylcellulose uh from the either A or S G series, a fairly viscous one, if you prehydrate that in water to a fairly high degree, so it's kind of pasty, and then fold that into the mix, that will um that will gelatinize after so what but you you need to pre-foam that, right? So you pre-foam that uh, and then if you have egg white or Xanthan or something in there that's holding the structure, um see the the issue with with these is with these things is is that with cakes, uh there is you need to have structure beforehand, right? And that's what holds the bubbles as they grow, and then you need to have structure uh you need to have structure afterwards, which is the starch that sets. So uh, you know, years and years ago I was working with uh Johnny Azzini, and one of the things we did for a uh demonstration we were working on was a no-protein um, you know, cake, uh like angel food cake style, but without that kind of bite of egg protein, and we worked it out with um methylcellulose, and we would foam with an ISI cancer, EC canister into molds. We would foam uh a cake batter mix that had as a portion of it hydrated methylcellulose.
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+[15:26] The issue, and it worked, because the methyl cellulose, it was already foamed, the methylcellulose would gel as it heated. It gelled, it held the structure in the same way that a protein will hold the structure in a cake, uh, and then uh after it was cooked, the starch took over. Problem is is that it has bad interactions with dairy. Uh, you know, like methylcellulose doesn't necessarily um react well or work well in uh high dairy applications. Okay.
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+[15:51] I'll give it a go and let you know how it works out. Cool. Thanks a lot. And there we go. Thanks so much.
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+[15:55] Alright, talk to you soon. We got a tweet pink salt for bacon? Yeah, you don't use pink salt for bacon? That was a question mark? That's a question mark, yeah.
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+[16:02] Yeah. No? I mean, is someone that like eat like I okay, look. If you go to if you go to what's it called, if you go, you know, pink salt, by the way, for those who don't know, is that what they do is is they mix there's two different kinds of pink salt. Ones that have uh nitrites in them, which are the ones that we normally use, and ones that have nitrates.
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+[16:20] You only want to use nitrates for uh long cured things like uh country hams and whatnot, because nitrates break down uh over time into nitrites. Uh and so in a short cured thing like bacon, you're only supposed to use nitrites. And uh nitrites, I mean let and look look, this is all the top of my head, so it could be that like a huge portion of my brain was erased somehow and that like my data is totally wrong, which someone please tweet and tell me. But uh, you know, the when people like for instance, let's say you go to Whole Foods and you buy what's called uncured bacon, they should put giant ass quotes around giant quotes, I mean, around that, because what happens is is they use uh foodstuffs like celery that are very, very high in nitrites, and then they just uh purify, I guess remove the flavor and gr you know greatly purify uh concentrate the amount of nitrites that are in the celery itself, right, such that that is strong enough to cure the uh bacon. Bacon that is actually uncured looks like roast pork, right?
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+[17:17] And tastes like salted roast pork, which is not bad. Any bacon, you know what I mean? And I'm pretty sure that they add the pink color to the salts just so that you don't accidentally use it as salt. And I'm virtually certain, I would say 99.99% certain that uh, and I always forget they're called pre uh prague powders or insecure powders. I never remember whether it's number one or number two.
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+[17:39] I just can't remember because I just I choose not to. They uh they color it uh pink. Now, if you get nitrites in the form of tender quick, Morton's tender quick, that is NACL, regular salt mixed with uh sodium nitrite in in a dosage that's meant to be used straight, and that sucker is not pink. So if you're using uh tender quick or what's called you know, that kind of a curing salt on a bacon, then uh which is you know it can be recommended because there's no possibility really of error with it. But uh anyway, so someone tweet on in and tell me that you know my brain was erased because there's always a good chance.
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+[18:13] Uh alrighty. Uh should we take a break? No, keep it. Keep going? All right, Stas says keep going, so I'll keep going.
+
+[18:19] Uh Christian Spinelo at Eat the Pig uh tweeted in. Listened uh to a back show where you talked about octopus and was curious if there is an anesthesia uh shtep. Anesthesia step. Why is that so hard? Is that a tongue you try it?
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+[18:35] Anesthesia step. Yeah, uh Stas is good at that stuff because yeah, anyway. Uh or equim step for the Piper, by the way. Pipe Get Piper drunk. Not difficult.
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+[18:44] Says that says that uh tongue twisters are like he he hates tongue twisters, he won't say it. The poor man's uh pun. But to me, they're unrelated. Yeah. Like to the tongue twister is unrelated to a pun.
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+[18:56] I don't like who the hell knows what he was talking about, right? He was in the car, so he wasn't drunk. Well, yeah, well, well, who knows? Love you, Piper. Uh I'm sure he's listening, and now I'm gonna have to put up with that all day.
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+[19:10] He's he's never never listens except for today, he's gonna listen just so that he can hear that and then give me give me crap for being the bad person that I am, right? Give you pink salt. Oh, wow. Okay. So uh that is a very interesting uh question, uh, Christian, and one that I can't believe that we haven't thought about before.
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+[19:29] And part of the issue is that uh I've never purchased a live uh octopus at a at a market. Have either either of you guys ever had that live tiny octopus on a chopstick. It's not really I don't really want it's not that I wouldn't eat it if someone handed it to me. It's just not in my thing. You know what I mean?
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+[19:44] But uh the reason why uh it's super interesting is that you know, as I've said, you know, many times, cephalopods, um, you know, octopus uh and some squid in particular, but really octopus, are kind of the geniuses of the invertebrate world. They're extremely smart, but they they're they're very bizarre in that they their brains don't function the same way ours do. They're not put together the same way. Now, their uh neuron the you know, the neuron transmission works the same way because you know, nerves had already developed by that time, and so they function in similar pathways, but their nervous system and their way of cognition, however you want to put it, right? And and I think that the you know, I think we're we're all past this uh idea that um animals are somehow just machines that can be uh, you know, that you know have no sort of uh inner inner inner life or workings at all.
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+[20:35] I think we're you know we're kind of past that as a as a society. Don't you think so? I mean, very few people think that anymore. Uh I think, you know, there's a bunch of hardcore uh scientists who kind of believe that, but it's it's almost the equivalent of solipsism on an individual basis to believe that we are the only animals that have some sort of inner life. It just doesn't really make any sense.
+
+[20:56] But you know, the question is, you know, does a clam really think about a lot? Is there an inner life to a clam? I don't think so. But the closely related octopus, I mean, it can do some pretty complicated and amazing things and can learn some pretty complicated and amazing things. So I think it would be a little disingenuous to think that uh an octopus doesn't have some sort of inner life going on, whether or not they're they're aware of their own existence or not, whether, you know, that that's unclear.
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+[21:20] But uh it is very interesting to think about what anesthesia and particularly what ikojime uh might do to them. Now, ikojime is is is a you know a set of Japanese fish killing techniques, but in the larger sense, you know, uh we're not referring to any particular traditional or even newer Japanese killing technique when we're talking about this subject. We're talking about the um purposeful quick killing of an animal, in this case fish, because ikajime means you know fish killing, uh, in a in a way that increases their quality. And typically, when you think about fish, and and d I don't want to get stuck into arguments of, you know, hey, what is the fish actually feeling? The question is, is do things that seem like less stressful ways of killing the animal, right, from just from an anthropomorphic thing, let's not to even talk about being rigorous, do things that seem like they would make sense to reduce the stress of slaughter, like anesthesia, like taking the brain out right away.
+
+[22:15] Uh muscle stress in a sense, like destroying the spinal cord so that uh there's no more impulses coming from the spinal cord to the muscles to uh use up the ATP to cause rigor, which is why you want to destroy the spinal cord in some strong swimming fish like bass and tuna. So the question is is things like that that makes sense from a human perspective as reducing stress, do they have an effect in the taste? Now uh you don't even have to think about what's going on in the inner mind of the fish because you have a much more uh verifiable result. Things that look like they cause less stress cause the uh animal to taste better when you eat it. So there is there is an effect.
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+[22:54] So it's like humane, whatever that means, killing techniques somehow align in this case, and hopefully in as many cases as we can see, align with uh best practices from a food preparation standpoint. Now, in an octopus, I came across a site looking for it here, uh W W Nietzsche Nietzsche Refresh dot co.jp. Uh and they do octopus and they say some interesting stuff. They say their octop their octopi, but they say octopuses when they uh when they uh translate it, are caught one at a time using pot traps. It's said that only strong, healthy octopuses enter the pot traps uh while the shallow waters are still abundantly full with prey.
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+[23:36] This enables us to capture strong, firm limbed octopuses of the highest quality. Unlike the trawling method, this harvest method does not disturb the harvesting waters, and it also prevents over harvesting, making making it much better for the environment and for resource conservation. That's really interesting, just on a loan on that standpoint, because the idea that that you want to catch a good strong octopus and they and they those are the ones that go into pot traps, it kind of makes sense because you know they like to hide, right? So I mean I don't really know what an octopus pot trap looks like, but they might go in there thinking they're hiding and they get trapped, right? Whereas it's a well-known fact that as soon as a male octopus uh donates its sperm or whatever you want to call it to the female octopus, that it goes like it's called senility, it goes insane senescence, it goes crazy and just starts wandering around on the bottom of the ocean floor so that it can get picked apart by whatever uh prey you want.
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+[24:24] So then you're getting kind of crappy, yeah. Or uh and on the flip side, as soon as the uh female lays its eggs, it stops eating and sits in the cave, like blowing water over the eggs to keep things from growing on it and guarding them against uh you know predators, and then as soon as the uh the babies hatch, she wanders out to get picked apart, eaten, and died in senescence. So you want a nice, good tasting octopus that hasn't gone into sedescence already, you gotta get one that still has its its self-preservation instincts intact. Um so uh Stas is looking something up she can talk about in a minute because I don't have time to look at the picture right now. Uh but she's gonna what do you got a picture of there?
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+[25:02] This is a picture of a Japanese octopus pot trap. Yeah. With a calm hack happy octopus. And it does look a lot like a cave that an octopus might go, and it makes sense. And it literally says calm, happy octopus.
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+[25:14] And the name of the trap is Taco Isubo. Yeah. Tako isubo. Anyway, so I thought that was really interesting. And then here's uh the other thing uh that they say is they say then that they practice Ikajime on it to kill it very quickly.
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+[25:26] Now there's uh there's an article there uh that's available in the September, it's available September 2013 in the Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology called The Identification and Management of Pain, Suffering and Distress Encephalopods, including anesthesia, analgesia, uh analgesia, and uh humane killing. Uh and it's by Paul uh Andrews et al. Uh, and yes, it's fairly recent article. Uh and it's extremely uh interesting. So they it if for those of you that are interested, and it is an interesting subject, and we don't have time to go into it now, but they go over uh all of the markers that human beings would look in if in a supposedly non-anthropomorphic way, although it doesn't make sense to think of it really in a non-anthropomorphic way, of how you would judge whether or not something is experiencing pain to the degree that uh that animal should be protected in a research environment.
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+[26:19] And then it goes on to figure uh to try and figure out uh whether or not we can prevent uh those sorts of pain. Uh and pain, remember, is different from nociception. This is getting complicated for a radio show, but nociception is the idea that there is a noxious stimulus and animals uh go away from it. So you take a cockroach and you put fire next to the cockroach, cockroach moves away from the fire. Are they experiencing pain?
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+[26:44] I don't know. Or are they just responding to the heat uh in the way that uh a sensor, you know, uh uh a smoke detector sensor responds to smoke, right? So a response to what human would consider a noxious stimulus is nosyception. Pain is a consciousness state that has to do with whether or not the animal understands that something is going on and feels some sort of distress uh relative to that. So they go through a bunch of arguments about what that would mean, uh, and then they go into what is now the important part for us, which is uh, well, what regulates that.
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+[27:16] So the two main uh two of the anesthetics that they use, one of which is clove oil, which is the one that we use when we're anesthetizing fish, and there's a lot of data on using clove oil uh and uh its derivatives, usinol and isousionol, to um to anesthetise fish, right? And I've done it many times. I've anesthetized lobsters, which are an entirely different set of you know, animals, crustacean with uh eusinol, and I believe that there is an observable difference, and therefore I don't have to worry about whether or not we're actually what's going on in the mind of a lobster because I feel that they taste different if they're anesthetized beforehand and if they're killed quickly. Um the question is does it work encephalopods? Uh answer, yes, it appears to work in cephalopods.
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+[27:57] Uh but here's the interesting part: Magnesium chloride, which is a widely available salt, you can get it at the Dwayne Reed. Remember we got the magnesium chloride at the drain weed. Magnesium chloride added to uh the water that um uh invertebrates like mollusks and clams are living in, um, causes them to lose their uh their their muscle, it's a muscle relaxant, right? And so if you add the right amount of magnesium chloride uh to the solution, and here I have the numbers, it's approximately 0.5% uh weight, magnesium chloride, and volume, along with 1% ethanol, it will cause their muscles to completely relax. Now, what you don't know here, right?
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+[28:34] What you can't know is whether or not that is actually shutting their brain down or whether it's just shutting down the ability of their muscles to work. But large amounts of magnesium chloride uh stop down, uh stop respiration and cause the animal to die. So a humane killing technique, uh ecogemic style, might be to put a small amount of clove oil along with a small amount of ethanol and magnesium chloride to slow their muscles down and to put them into a state of anesthesia, right? And then to add more magnesium chloride to stop their respiration, and then you know, do whatever cut your brain out. The other hum uh, you know, and here's the issue problem with octopi is that they don't have a central brain.
+
+[29:11] They have a large kind of brain near the eye, so there's midline dissection where you take out the entire eye area and get rid of the brain section. But they have a bunch of other quote unquote brain sections, uh, unlike us, right? But that's one of the humane things, or complete decapitation of the octopus, immediate decapitation octopus, another good ecogemia weight. But are the brains in other parts of the body, or it's all the head? No, I think it's like a separate, like most of the neurons in an octopus are in their tentacles, not most, but those I haven't done the research in a long time, but a huge amount of the of the neurons in the octopus are in in the tentacles because like the for instance, it's it's very complicated.
+
+[29:44] But the the point is that nobody really understands what it means to knock out the uh consciousness of an octopus because nobody understands what octopus consciousness is. And one of the fascinating things about researching cephalopods is that their entire method of perception of the world is different than ours. So that like proprioception, like how you know where your body is in space, works entirely differently in cephalopods than it does in mammals. And so it's kind of hard to evaluate uh what's going on. But it's an extremely interesting subject.
+
+[30:12] And anyone out there who has uh access to live octopi, I'd be curious to run some tests on taste. You know what I'm saying? Because that's the only thing I know I can test is how that sucker tastes on my how that smart, awesome thing tastes once it gets in my mouth. Anyway. Let's take a break.
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+[30:25] Oh, we'll take a break. Come back with cooking issues. Every August for the past ten years, Heritage Foods USA has had the great honor of announcing the arrival of a new generation of Good Shepherd Ranch Heritage Turkeys and a new chapter in the history of an endangered species. You have to eat them to save them. While many farmers now use the term, Frank Greese and his team raised the truest example of the original heritage turkey.
+
+[31:11] According to the USTA, they remain the only farm allowed to use the name Heritage on their label. We hope you reserve your healthy, naturally mating, flying, standard bronze, bourbon red, white holland, slate, black, or narragans of turkey today. Let's do it again and support the brightest hope for the turkey. We guarantee these are the best tasting turkeys ever, or your money back. Prices start at $75 dollars.
+
+[31:37] For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. We've had some of those heritage turkeys. They were straight up delicious. I did I think I did a bionic turkey on Heritage Thing once.
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+[31:50] That was, I think, maybe the best one we ever did. We did a Bionic Heritage Turkey. Yeah. And Sucker was awesome. You know, the Bionic Turkey is where we rip out the skeleton, replace it with a skeleton an aluminum tube skeleton with holes cut in it so that we can pump heated oil through, cook it from the inside out so that it cooks quickly, and then flash fry it afterwards to get a crispy skin, which is delicious.
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+[32:09] Should we do that again this should we if we tell Jack uh if we tell uh rather Patrick that we're gonna do some sort of fancy thing, you think he'll hook us up, hook us up with a heritage turkey? Probably make that happen. Sweet. We don't we had a question come in too about um alternate proteins, like in the form of bugs, and if you think bugs will find their way on menus soon. Well, I mean, bugs have found their way on menus, you know, uh already.
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+[32:33] I mean, you know, everyone, you know, in you know, Mexico, you got those fried grasshoppers, which I just don't think taste good. That's the thing. I mean, they're crunchy, but a lot of things are crunchy. You know what I'm saying? You've had those, right, Stas?
+
+[32:43] I don't think so. And I don't like them. Then there's the ant eggs, uh, you know, Eskimole, which I haven't had, but I think those are extremely, you know, high priced. There's witchety grubs, uh, and you know, some grubs are apparently delicious tasting. I mean, there's no there's no reason not to eat them, you know, other than the the gross factor.
+
+[33:00] Um, and that they're fairly small, right? So, I don't know. I don't think there's any reason why they shouldn't. I mean, like obviously there's a grossness factor that a lot of people have to get over, but you know, then you know who uh was big into eating bugs is uh Dana Goodyear. Didn't she write about that in her new Eating Everything, eating Bugs?
+
+[33:18] And then the uh what's it called? The um what's it called? Natural History Museum had that big bite bug eating uh thing a couple of years back. You know who else? I bet you Paul Adams from Popular Science has eaten himself a lot of bugs.
+
+[33:29] But you see, bet you that guy's eaten himself a lot of bugs. Um we have this in on the Twitter. Uh Dan D at Eat the Fat. Uh at Cooking Issues, Trader Joe's in STL, which is St. Louis, we think, donate, right?
+
+[33:43] Yeah. St. Louis. Uh donates a lot of food to our local at campus kitchens. Maybe it's just an in-store decision.
+
+[33:51] Well, that's good to know that it's not Trader Joe's nationwide, and it just means hey, New York Trader Joes, step on up and give some food to bread and life. What? There's a lot of Trader Joe's here. I think there's three now. Yeah, but I'm sure they're probably all like run like low.
+
+[34:06] Hey, Jack, you want to say something nice about the bread and life friends of our station? All the good work they do. Well, yeah, they they work with Heritage Foods also. We give them a lot of hams, I believe, and then come Thanksgiving we work with them as well. They've also they were one of the sponsors at the Bushwick Block Party, so they're like always around here.
+
+[34:22] Also Anthony Butler's a great guy. I don't know if you met him. Yeah, no, yeah, I have. Uh I know some, you know, my wife's done some architecture work for them, and so has uh, you know, another couple of friends of mine. They they just happen to be really kind of good people, you know?
+
+[34:36] Yeah, exactly. Uh so you know Trader Joe's, just you know, give them the stuff that you're about to throw away. Why throw it away? Why have it go to waste? There's plenty of people, there's plenty of people here in New York that could use the food.
+
+[34:46] Am I right, Jack? Absolutely. Okay. Uh here's a question out to you guys. Tom Fisher, you asked us about the eggnog.
+
+[34:53] Did it work? Did it thicken? It's been like a week or two, right, since we answered that question. The eggnog should be thick now. Let us know.
+
+[34:59] Tweet on in. We need to do our own eggnogs, yeah. Oh, dang, yeah. Well, before Thanksgiving, we have to set our eggnog. Piper's gonna do something crazy with it, though, right?
+
+[35:06] He can't help it. No, let's do it. Correctly. So you and I are gonna do it. We won't tell them until afterwards.
+
+[35:11] Or you can do his own, geez. He does love the side by side. Uh another follow-up. Drew uh Drew Bushorn wrote in on Tempe. He had tweeted in and asked us about whether or not you could use microbial transglutaminase, which by the way, transglutaminase is what we call meat glue, and it's the enzyme that bonds proteins together.
+
+[35:29] It brought binds a um glutamine residue to which is an amino acid to a lysine residue uh in a covet res it's such a gross word. Why would I say residue when I'm talking about food? Residue. Glycine, I mean uh uh lysine residue. Anyway, uh the so anyway, so it bonds these things together and uh it comes from microbes.
+
+[35:48] It's called microbial transglutaminase, and it usually has uh various helper proteins. The question is, could you glue tempe together with it? And apparently the answer, and you could see it because he responded uh uh to the Twitter is yes, it does. Uh it glues it together, and he he says, um uh what did he say here? Thanks for putting together uh good program.
+
+[36:05] Long live the hammer. Fan of the hammer. Nice. There's gotta be one fan of the hammer. Oh I have a couple of things.
+
+[36:11] I know you do. Oh, come on, please. Everyone, everyone loves the hammer. Come on, please. Uh uh a few days back I tweeted Dave about using his favorite enzyme uh transglutaminase to make steam tempest solid enough to char uh to charburger style.
+
+[36:24] Since I know he's not a big veggie, but he might be amused by the results. I thought I'd report back. The upper half uh he shows the part that's not uh TG'd and it's just all broken apart. And the bottom, Patty, with a 1% by mass transglutaminase, which is a good number for something like that. Uh, it tasted pretty uh it worked well and tasted pretty good with lettuce and mayo.
+
+[36:40] Well, everything tastes good with lettuce and mayo, right? Lettuce and mayo tastes good. Man, add a good tomato, and you got let you got all you're almost all the way to a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich. And in fact, even if you're a vegetarian, I hate to say this, because baking lettuce and bacon lettuce tomato, and we're talking with Mark Ladner about this over the weekend because we did a an event at uh at the Discovery Center at the uh Thanksgiving farm, which we could talk about later. Center for discussion.
+
+[37:01] Sand for discovery, yeah. Uh Discovery Center or something else. That's like a science museum or something. Sandford Discovery. Uh you know me.
+
+[37:07] Anyway, so the point is that like that's kind of one of the great sandwiches. Mark thinks that the reason it's such a great sandwich is you can have it at any time of day, and it's good, but and I'm getting like I'm gonna get a lot of flack about this, but it's not as good a sandwich, but almost as good as as good a sandwich as just with just to toasted crappy white bread, mayo, an excellent tomato and lettuce. Yeah. I mean, right? Subbing bacon for the mayo, is everything?
+
+[37:31] No, you need mayo no matter what, Jack. Don't try to make a BLT without mayo. Do you eat BLTs without mayo, Jack? Is this a problem we're gonna have? No, no, no.
+
+[37:39] All right. All right. Um you can feel me swooling into. Yeah, headphones have been down. Bad bones, like you know, like the gloves come off and the hockey, boom, on the ice.
+
+[37:52] Anyway, uh okay. Uh so that was it. Uh just a good follow-up, thanks. And we like to hear uh follow-ups like that, right? We enjoy that stuff.
+
+[37:59] Um, we had a question in last week, but we forget who it came in from, right? I think it was a caller, asking about gluten-free ramen. Uh, and they specifically they want to know whether or not uh you could add consui, which is the uh kind of alkaline salts that are used to firm up uh alkaline noodles, uh, of which ramen is one of those. So you add uh to flour, you add uh consway, it raises the pH, makes it more alkaline, and raising the pH strengthens the gluten in it and causes the noodles to have more bite, more snap, more elasticity makes them firmer, right? Which is one of the reasons why uh people do alkaline noodles.
+
+[38:32] The other one is there's a specific alkaline taste that you like if you're accustomed to that. Um and we're accustomed to that uh in certain things, it's a slightly different alkaline taste, but for instance, in pretzels have an alkaline taste to them because they're boiled in alkaline water before they're um or dipped in alkaline uh bath before debaked, which is why they have that awesome color and that specific pretzel taste. Um back to this. So the other thing uh that the alkaline stuff does in uh in wheat flour is it turns it yellow, which is why you have those kind of bright yellow alkaline noodles, right? Now, with ramen, uh I think most of the time ramen is made in an alkaline noodle semi-alkaline noodle process, not a high high uh level of alkaline noodles from the data that I could get from you know the the internet's on the actual industrial production of ramen.
+
+[39:18] So, but the the classic ramen production is you make the noodle, probably with alkaline, uh with uh out of wheat flour, sometimes with the addition of potato starch or other very fast hydrating starches to allow the rehydration to take uh place much faster in the cup when you add the boiling you know water to it when you're making the ramen. You know, I haven't made ramen in so many years from the from the boy from the bags. Have you ever when was the last time you had one of those things? Three years ago. Oh no, you mean like that?
+
+[39:45] Yeah, like like you know, like the one that you actually buy the package, you break it open with the little flavor pack. Oh yeah, I know. Twenty years. Twenty? Dang.
+
+[39:54] I used to eat the hell out of those. Those are good and cheap. Anyway, so uh what happens is you uh make the noodles, they are steam. Oh, this is kind of cool. They have a conveyor belt, and the conveyor belt runs at two different speeds, right?
+
+[40:05] So it the a faster running conveyor belt loads onto a slower running conveyor belt, and that's how they get the wave in it. Oh yeah, by by the differential conveyor belts fed onto, and then they get the wave in it. When it's on after it goes on the slower conveyor belt that causes the wave, it goes through a steam tunnel. The steam tunnel cooks the starch out, right? It then goes, uh it's then cut, sometimes folded it.
+
+[40:27] It well, then they put it on another conveyor belt that stretches it out a little bit to separate the noodles after they've done that. This is all pretty cool, right? And then uh that's after the steam thing, and then it goes, it gets cut and sometimes folded into the full block. If you're gonna put it into a block form for like in packaging and plastic, then goes into a fryer. It fries to dehydrate it.
+
+[40:46] It's a fast dehydration step. It also, as opposed to regular dehydration, opens the pores in the noodles because it's boiling the water out. And that's why ramen uh rehydrates so quickly because it's got all these open pour structures from the frying. And that's also why you can eat ramen without cooking it, and it's got kind of a good crunchy texture because it's slightly it's slightly it's more porous than dried pasta. That's why it tastes better raw, raw-ish uh than uh pasta.
+
+[41:13] It's then further dehydrated a little more and packaged. That's how the ramen works. So then uh the question is uh so clearly adding consui to uh gluten-free uh um ramen isn't going to add the functional benefits of texture that you would get in um in wheat flour. However, there is a a new article out, I think it's brand new. I think it's like not even out until 2014.
+
+[41:37] I think it's one of those ones that's in pre-press right now, uh, in the uh journal Food Chemistry called Quality Improvement of Rice Noodle Restructured with Rice Protein Isolate and Transglutaminase by Yang Kim et al. And it's specifically looking at increasing the toothiness of rice noodles using transglutaminase. Uh and they talk specifically, I think, about uh ramen and how ramen might work. Okay. Um and so it what's interesting if you look this uh paper up is they have photos of uh scanning electron micrograph uh microscopy photos of uh what you know just plain rice looks like as a noodle, and like everyone knows is ever just made a rice noodle, it's like a bunch of babies.
+
+[42:14] It doesn't hold together well. There's no structure, there's no protein network uh like there would be in something that has gluten, which is why when you're making uh gluten-free things with rice, what you do is you cook off some of the rice first and then f uh and then add that cooked rice back to your raw rice flour because otherwise it has no structure, right? So they have that, then they have that just with transglutaminase added, and it doesn't join do that much joining back together because uh rice is fairly low in proteins that can be bonded uh bound together by transglutaminase. What they did, and then they said that look, one way to get around this is to add soy proteins and all these other things, but these guys did a study where they added rice protein back to it and transglutaminase, and you can see it, and the one on the the one that it has the added rice protein added back to it as well as transglutaminase added to bind it together, looks a lot more like a traditional dough structure than that. So maybe that's a way to increase in a gluten-free application the toothomeness of uh of it.
+
+[43:13] And you could probably also, if you can't get rice protein, you could probably do a little bit of cooked rice, soy protein, unless you're against it, that's hydrated along with the rice with transglutaminase and get more of a firm uh kind of snappy texture out of it. But go take a look at that uh article uh because you know it seems fairly interesting. The one the issue, only issue I have is that uh, you know, as as I've said, there were arguments, and I haven't had the time to do the research to really suss it out about whether or not adding transglutaminase to things that contain uh trace amounts of gluten, whether it makes that uh whether it makes the gluten fraction more reactive or less reactive uh for people who suffer from celiac. Uh and I've heard kind of arguments on both sides. However, I will say that this article is specifically addressing the issue of uh celiac.
+
+[44:00] And so, you know, they they're looking to make a gluten-free rice-only uh product that has good eating qualities, and they are interested in the ramen issues. So it's uh something to look at, and you know, it's current right now. That's two transglutaminates questions. Cool. Oh yeah, right.
+
+[44:19] Um next, we have in from uh you think it's pronounced Philippe? I think so. Philippe. Philippe Lament. It's kind of awesome to have a last name Lament.
+
+[44:28] I think it's a good name altogether. Philippe Lament. I bet you like I bet you like super happy though. If you haven't if you have a name like Lament, you you can't you can't like you can't be melancholy. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:38] Because you know, well, at least if it was Piper, you'd be like, I'm not living up to my name. I won't I won't. Anyway. Uh hello, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. It's Philippe Lament writing.
+
+[44:48] Love your show. I have a question about soft serve ice cream. Some of my good friends acquired a soft serve machine, amazingly, and I told them I'd be glad to make a ton of ice cream base for them for a party. Now I know how to make ice cream that is churned regularly, but soft serve is different, more overrun, right? What do I do to make a baller soft serve base?
+
+[45:05] Okay, this is a great question. Um here's the deal. So I once uh was the uh proud owner of a soft serve ice cream machine. Also, kind of strangely. I was walking down the street one day.
+
+[45:18] This is you know, uh, fifth 15, 12, 15 years ago. I was walking down the street uh in uh the Garment district where I used to live, and just literally someone had thrown out on the side of the street a giant, like uh, you know, two flavors and a twist, Taylor soft serve ice cream machine on wheels. And I was like, look, someone threw out an ice cream machine, and my wife's like, so what? I'm like, so what? It's coming back to our house.
+
+[45:42] And it weighs like, because you know, yeah, whatever. So, but the sucker weighs 900 pounds, and it's on these crappy little casters. I know it weighs 900 pounds because I looked up the cut sheet later on the sucker. And so anyway, it was on this, you know, those crappy little casters that machines are on that aren't really meant to. And if you've been to the garment district, the the only roads that are worse are the ones in lower Manhattan down where we are now.
+
+[46:01] But like the garment district has these like all bent, all the roads are messed up from heavy trucks ears just rolling over them all the time, right? So I'm rolling this thing back a couple blocks of my uh, you know, my loft where I lived at the time, and we roll it in, and you know, I spend the next day and a half blowing all the roaches out of it and like you know, completely nuking it such that there was nothing left alive in it, you know, making sure that I wasn't bringing a family of rats with me or anything like this. Disassemble the machine, put it back together. Unfortunately, the uh unfortunately the one of the compressors was shot. In fact, two of the compressors were shot.
+
+[46:35] So instead of two flavors and a twist, I had kind of one flavor where the cylinder compressor worked, and the actual refrigeration compressor that uh uh thing that keeps the base going didn't work at all. So I had to like pack that with ice uh to get it to work. And this was the first time I'd ever made a huge quantity of ice cream base. Uh and so what I'll say is this when you're making and this applies to anything, if you have low temperature, you're gonna want to go ahead and because you're gonna make gallons. If you have an ice soft serve ice cream machine, like uh I remember I was like, crap, I can't even fire this sucker up reasonably unless I'm making like four gallons.
+
+[47:09] So I tried to make a four gallon or five gallon batch of ice cream base in my turkey frying pot, right? Now, if you've never done this before, it is very difficult to get an even temp and stupidly, because I'm a jerk, I tried to make uh I tried to make the whole batch at once just by whisking really hard. And the bottom of it, obviously, I got a little overheated. I didn't move it fast, and so all of a sudden I see bloop, I see all of these, I see that the coagulated overcooked egg float to the top. I'm like, no.
+
+[47:40] So I tried filtering it out, right? Also, if you've met me, you know that I was very late and like I needed the ice cream on the table, right? Because I had it was family dinner, I needed to have this stuff out. You know, Stasza's shaking her head because she knows how I am. So I was like, oh no.
+
+[47:52] I didn't have the time to cool it down just by putting it in the in the case. So, first of all, I filtered it out. Sucker tastes like scrambled eggs. This is way prior to Heston Blumenthal making scrambled egg ice cream famous. I could have been like, well, I'm just doing Heston Blumenthal's recipe.
+
+[48:03] I'm just I'm just trying out this. Yeah, look, what do you mean? I meant to do this. This is what Heston does all the time. You know, listen, if you're not looking for scrambled egg ice cream, scrambled ice egg ice cream, no good.
+
+[48:13] And I haven't had Heston's, I'm sure it's delicious. I don't want to talk about that. So, anyway, I needed to cool this base down super quick, right? That I had made, and I had messed up part of it by curdling part of it. It was at the last minute, too.
+
+[48:23] It's always at the last minute that you ruined the base, which is why it's so horrible. I thankfully hadn't burnt it because that would be the real joker move, whatever. So it's all strained out, and I have it in the in a bus tub because I had lost the original thing in the bottom of the soft serve machine, and I threw dry ice into it to try and cool it down faster. And of course, it tasted lightly carbonated when it came out of the soft serve because the soft serve hadn't frozen out all the water in it. And so I had this kind of carbonated scrambled egg ice cream.
+
+[48:47] It was the worst ice cream I've ever made in my entire life. I then threw an ice cream uh party afterwards, and quite smartly at the time, although it's a cop-out, and we'll talk about ways not to cop out. Uh, I drove up to the Bronx to the Mr. Softy uh warehouse where the actual trucks for Mr. Softy go, and I said, Look it.
+
+[49:09] I'm not look, I'm not trying to horn in on Mr. Softy's business. I have this ice cream machine, my wife's gonna make me throw it away in about a week and a half. I'm gonna have a big party. I'll pay whatever you want.
+
+[49:14] Just let me buy like five gallons of Mr. Softy mix. And they did. They let me buy it wasn't that much. I mean the guy was not used to it to like a normal non-Mr.
+
+[49:28] Softy guy showing up at the window where the Mr. Softy trucks show up to buy their stuff and like kind of making this plea. And I and I guess uh he obviously looked at me and was like, this person does is not a professional person in any sort of way. And so he sold me the stuff. Party was insane.
+
+[49:42] Party was nuts. We went through so much soft serve ice cream on that. But that said, um, I'm sure you want to make it the right way. The first thing to do, if you've never made huge batches before, is make them in smaller batches so that you don't do the stupid stuff that I've did. Uh second, if you have an immersion circulator, I would just make it an immersion circulator in um kind of two liter two liters at a time and just build it up two, three to four liters at a time in bags and build up that way because you're much less likely to uh have a problem.
+
+[50:08] It'll take you a little bit longer, but it's easier to chill and easier to keep um keep done. That said, if you want to know about uh the actual formulation of soft serve, the problem overrun in a soft serve ice cream machine isn't achieved the same way that you achieve overrun in regular ice cream with the with the churning thing. The way that soft serve literally injects air into the freezing cylinder at the same time that it injects the mixture in. So you change the overrun uh based on the orifice. If you look in the soft serve machine, uh there is a pump.
+
+[50:36] The pump uh draws the base out of the of the at least the one I had, out of the bottom of the unit and injects it into the chamber through what what looks like you know a a MIG welding tip, a little orifice, and you change that orifice size to change the overrun. And so unscrupulous people who are making soft serve, what they'll do is they'll put an orifice in there that increases the overrun to like a hundred percent or more, so that you're getting more than you know, as more air than you are ice cream based in the finished product. Uh you know, conversely, you can do a s like a super premium one by reducing the overrun by changing the orifice in it, which is what companies like Carvel do. So Carvel, you know, used to, and you know, it's not super premium anymore by you know modern standards, but you know, back in the 70s, they had a very low overrun ice cream that was still soft served. That's why Carvel cakes, once they're hardened, they're dense as hell, because it's actually a very dense ice cream, which is why I like Carvel.
+
+[51:28] Uh and I, you know, whatever their flavoring is, I got you, you know, I learned to love it when I was a kid, so I have no idea whether it's actually good or not. Um right? You but you didn't grow up with Carvel. Do you like it? Uh it's okay.
+
+[51:39] Yeah, but you didn't grow up with it. So it's yeah, I mean it's like it's like black and white cookies. If you didn't grow up with a black and white cookie, you don't love a black and white cookie. Jack, you grew up with black and white. So we had this conversation last week.
+
+[51:46] Yeah. Yeah, black and white. Yeah. Okay. So anyw, uh, so the point is the overrun is controlled by the uh the overrun is controlled by the orifice.
+
+[51:56] So you can go buy a new orifice and they're fairly inexpensive. So whatever make you have, you can easily go by the orifice to produce the overrun you want. The trick with uh soft serve machines is is that you have to adjust uh you have to remember that they're gonna be served warmer than a hard slightly warmer than a hard ice cream. So sugar levels need to be a little bit different. And what you need to guard against is over whipping because this thing sits there churning the entire time, even when you're not drawing.
+
+[52:21] Uh at least I believe that they always churn even when they're not drawing. So there's the issue that something might be in the cylinder much longer than it would be in a normal machine, and so you need to add uh emulsifiers to it to prevent over whipping in the cylinder as it goes. Uh now, a good place to go for this kind of information if you just Google uh soft serve guelf, which is where the university is that does a lot of the good dairy science stuff that's available on the web and Goff, G-U-E-L-P-H, which is where the professor's name, there's a huge PDF that you can look at on the uh on the internet that deals very specifically with all of the different um all the different things that go into soft serve, including um the fact that you want a higher uh milk fat uh milk fats um you know uh milk sorry non-milk fat solids, milk fat's non-solid, that's what it is, in uh in ice cream um because you're not gonna have lactose crystallization problems over time and it increases the body of it. They talk about the fat content uh and they actually give some proportions uh that you might want to use, and then you're gonna go out and get some good emulsifiers. I mean I'm sure egg yolks are good enough to emulsify them to prevent the overturning.
+
+[53:28] Uh and they talk about fat contents and everything. So just go on to that, and they actually talk about um uh changing the wetness or dryness perception of the ice cream based on whether you add certain salts, and this is something I never thought about before that I'm gonna do more research for the next time we do ice cream work, uh adding sodium citrate uh or different calcium to either make it wetter or drier the ice cream. I had no idea, so that's something to look into. You gotta love guelf. You gotta love guelf.
+
+[53:51] Uh all right, so that's it. And uh shout out to John Riper who says uh Stas, sorry to hear the apples didn't arrive in the best of shape, but glad you could still go to uh tasting with them. Hey John, the chocolates are delicious. He sent us chocolates. Uh well, you see, and I you know, like and then I was told that I was throwing John under the bus saying that you know that they didn't get it's not that they didn't come in the best of shape.
+
+[54:11] I see you know you want to know exactly what our tasting stuff is, and I I for one, really appreciated it, and I thank you, John. Cooking issues, thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[54:53] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:04] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Alberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 here as usual with the hammer. How you doing? Good. And Jack in the booth, how you doing?
+
+[1:19] Hey. It's just it's just the it's the old school crew today. It's just uh the Stars and the Jack and the and the me. Nice, right? Stas likes it that way.
+
+[1:27] No offense to Joe. She just feels like she likes a like old school. Now you're now, Stas, you have a problem with Joe. Oh man. Yeah.
+
+[1:36] And uh started it. And uh uh interesting, we brought back the uh song by uh Joel Gargano because Joel has a question in today. Uh sensed it. You sensed it, you felt it. Did Stas.
+
+[1:48] Did Stars tip you off? No, she didn't. Really? Alright. Uh well before I go in, uh call in your questions to 718 497 2128.
+
+[1:55] That's 718-497-2128. Jack has some good news. Jack, uh, you have good news? Oh, right, yeah. Good news.
+
+[2:02] Um, I'm see I wouldn't share this kind of personal information on the show, but Nastasia is so happy that I'm leaving Brooklyn. I'm moving to New York City. Woo! Now, uh I I like well here's here's the thing that might interest. It will only actually interest people who are from New York.
+
+[2:18] Those uh other people just you know bear with us for a second. But so uh a quirk of New Yorkers is that it when you live in when you live outside of New York City and you ask someone from Brooklyn, you know, are you from New York City? They'll say yes. But when you're inside the city, the city is really just Manhattan. Stas back me up on this, right?
+
+[2:37] Yeah. And so even Jack, long time Brooklyn pusher, you know, not in the you know, not in that sense, but you know, like a booster. That's what I meant. Book Brooklyn booster, moving to Manhattan now admits he's moving to the city. Yeah.
+
+[2:51] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So what's the reason, Jack? Um, an opportunity has come up.
+
+[2:58] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're no longer gonna live in uh Bushwick? I mean, you know, I'll be here a lot, but my home will be the city.
+
+[3:07] That was my first home anyway when I moved to the city and went to NYU. So nice. Well, welcome back. Welcome back to our side of the river, Jack. This is stuff that only makes sense to like to uh to New Yorkers, though, right, Stas?
+
+[3:19] People, you know, you know what it pisses people off who don't uh you don't live in New York when uh you go to their city and then they say uh, you know, when when are you going back? You're going I'm going back to the city, and then you give the date that you're going back to New York, and you're like, what do you mean, the city? Like it's a city. Like, like I also live in a city, and you're like, no, no, no. I'm in LA now, I'm going back to the city next week.
+
+[3:40] You know what I mean? People hate that. Right? Yeah, yeah. My wife used to hate that.
+
+[3:45] In fact, she mentioned that to me uh when we were going out like 20 years ago. I'm like, what are you talking about? Uh and turns out it's true. I've paid attention. People do get upset.
+
+[3:53] Anyway, uh back to uh Joel's question. Hey crew. First off, I finally met Harold McGee at the Harvard uh lecture in September that you guys did. I didn't see him there. Did you see him?
+
+[4:03] No, I didn't. Maybe he was there for a separate lecture. Uh I think I creeped him out. Remember, I was that guy you read to live on the air. This is what Joel said to McGee.
+
+[4:11] Like imagine McGee standing there and Joel walking up and be like, hey, remember when you read that stuff on the air? And he's like, uh he's like, uh, oh yeah, and I wrote that song about you too. Uh I did get a sweet picture with Harold, uh though, after you smoked out the lecturer. No, so I guess it was the one we were at. Yeah.
+
+[4:25] I didn't see him. Anyway. Uh I'm sure I'm sure like McGee always just stands there and listens. Like, he probably didn't like wasn't creeped out. Carroll doesn't get creeped out by that kind of stuff.
+
+[4:33] No. No. Carol has a strong whatever it's called. All right. Uh, here are the questions.
+
+[4:39] Uh, how is vinegar powder made? And if I were to make my own, what would be the best approach without the flavor becoming muted by ridiculous amounts of endsorbit? Uh, is a tray of vinegar and a dehydrator the answer? Uh okay. So I'll I'll hit that one first.
+
+[4:51] Uh because it's two questions. No, no. The way vinegar powder is commercially made is uh through uh spray drying. So in spray drying, what you would do is you would mix see the problem with vinegar is vinegar is one of the very few uh you know acids that we eat that is volatile. That's why you can smell it so much.
+
+[5:07] Uh, you know, when you put your head over a thing of vinegar, it smells like vinegar, whereas you you know, put your head over a thing of lime juice and you're like, smells like lime juice, but it doesn't smell like acid, you know what I mean? Uh, and when you boil vinegar, you get that like aroma above it, you're like, whoa, you know what I'm talking about, but you don't get it with something like lime or lemon or or anything like that. Uh it's because those acids um, you know, boil at a high enough temperature that they're fundamentally non-volatile, whereas acetic acid isn't. So uh anyway, so you spray dry acetic acid uh vinegar by mixing it with uh a carrier, usually maltextrin, and then uh spraying it into a chamber very, you know, very the the higher the better at a high temperature, and as it goes down, the mist goes down in the chamber, it dries out and turns into a powder. Remember, we saw we went to David Michael, the the flavor house, and we saw their spray dryer units.
+
+[5:54] Pretty cool. Anyway, so that's how they make the the powdered vinegar. Now, powdered vinegar, and you can go on you know, modernist pantry or Lessincture anywhere, Terra Spice, uh Calustians if you're here in the city, and buy uh various different flavors of vinegar powder. Um the problem is that uh, like I say, vinegar itself is non-volatile. I mean, sorry, pfft, exact opposite.
+
+[6:14] Vinegar is volatile, so the acetic acid is so you have to uh it's not very acidic, so you need to then dope the vinegar the vinegar powder will have the flavor of whatever vinegar was there, uh uh malt, vinegar or you know anything like that, but it's not actually very tart. So you'll need to augment it with uh another acid to really get the tartness of the vinegar back. Now, uh I think you could probably freeze dry vinegar as well. And I don't know whether the acidity is maintained through the freeze-drying process because I don't know the uh I don't know how acetic acid works with sublimation and freeze drying is a sublimation procedure. Um the other thing, and I looked up and people have done it, is you can uh mix um you can make a sauce with vinegar in it and then dehydrate the entire sauce, right?
+
+[7:01] Because then there's enough structure of other stuff in the sauce that you can dehydrate. And I saw on the internets that somebody did that with like their their favorite buffalo wing sauce. They they poured the buffalo wing sauce in the dehydrator, dehydrator for two days and then powdered it. Uh I mean, I've never done it, but but you could do that. But don't use endsorbit.
+
+[7:17] Remember, Nsorbit uh is going to be an expensive carrier to use for uh this kind of thing. Ensorbit is a particular type of tapioca maltodextrin that is um made specifically to have very, very uh very low density, and it's used as a bulking agent, and it also is used to make powdered oils. And the reason it works is because the starch helix, right? The inside of the starch helix is relatively hydrophobic, and so fats and oils can go inside of that helix without gumming up the outside of it so that it remains bulky and powdery, but uh the oil is somehow stored on the inside. As soon as you add water, it breaks down and turns to, you know, it turns, you know, it debulks and turns uh like into nothing, which is how the ensorbit powdered oil trick works.
+
+[8:09] So you can't you can't do it with uh enzorbit, or at least it's not uh, you know, you get a cheaper form of maltodextrin to use as a bulking agent if you're gonna do the dehydration on it. But anyway, I hope that helps. Uh second question uh Joel had was um uh it's always been the kitchen rule to let Cambrosa's stocks cool with the lid off. The school of thought on this is twofold. It will cool faster because there's less insulation, and also the condensation built up on the lid uh if left on could promote bacterial growth.
+
+[8:37] I hate cooling stocks with no lids because it increases the potential for items to be dropped in them during the cooling process. Not a question about cooling techniques, but I want to know if there's any danger in slapping a lid on hot stock and cooling it in an ice bath, the room temp, and then putting it in the walk-in. Well, okay, I mean, look, it is there any danger. So if the product is way above the temperature that uh of bacteria, right, and the I don't think you're gonna have a problem with the lid. I'm in in terms of uh bacterial contamination.
+
+[9:07] If you slapped it on it when it was really hot and you know the the vapors coming up would be hot, it would hit it and everything would be okay and you know uh presumably that's not the real problem. The real problem is that it takes forever and a day to cool uh to cool stock uh with a lid on because um eva a huge amount of heat is lost through evaporative cooling. Uh so you know uh if you were to put a lid on on top of uh stock when it's cooling, uh it would super drastically increase the amount of time it takes the stock to get down to room temperature. Because um, you know, the the I mean is evaporative cooling is such a large percentage of of how how the stuff gets away. When you think about it, uh like radiation very low and conduction to the air very low in terms of uh uh way ways to get rid of heat.
+
+[9:58] Conduction even to ice water through a cambro is not super great because the cambro is not so great at heat transfer, right? Um, you know, a metal, a metal container uh in ice is good. Um, but that as long as there's hot vapor coming off, you're you know, very drastically cooling is setting up a temperature gradient, setting up convection so long as the stock is a thin thing and really increasing the rate at which it cools. So I really think it's all about uh rate of cooling there. Now, if you could guarantee a rate of cooling that's fast enough, then a totally sealed system would be fine, I would guess.
+
+[10:31] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, just as a note, uh, it really is the evaporative cooling. Uh I poured Piper and I ran some tests today.
+
+[10:38] We did uh a quart container of product, which is not the same as Camber, it's much smaller. We did a quart container of of water with and without a lid, drastically different cooling rates. And then also I poured uh like a teaspoon uh or a little bit of oil on top of of another a third one, and it's the same as putting a lid on it, drastically damp the uh rate because you can't get evaporation off the off the top if there's oil on top. I wonder whether that's why the guys in uh so you know in um you know in Tibet they put uh like uh melted yak butter on top of tea? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:09] Uh I wonder so a lot of it is because I was speaking to this uh guy, I think I mentioned this in it in the show previously, is that I had a little like an actual Sherpa as uh a driver, like his last name was Sherpa, and he was from uh Nepal. I think I talked about it, yeah. But and he was saying that uh the interesting thing about the food there is that if it doesn't have a lot of fat in it, people are like, what's wrong with you? I need uh the fat to survive, you know what I mean, because they need to burn a lot of calories, I guess, when they're up that high. But uh I wonder whether also you get a like wicked evaporative cooling up there because of the low pressures, and I'm wondering whether or not the butter is an insulation effect as well to keep the tea hotter longer.
+
+[11:43] Yeah, you're like, I don't care. I'm talking to your brother-in-law, so yeah, you're talking to my brother-in-law? Yeah. Right now, while we're doing the radio show. Uh got this in, a note from uh John Riper, friend of the show.
+
+[11:56] Uh Nastasha, another great show last week. Dave's quick riff on BLTs reminding me of an easy way to make them better. Uh hey, listen, John, don't get me started. BLT, you can make one different. I don't know if you're gonna make it better.
+
+[12:07] This is that's a tough way to open it. Yeah. I mean, look, in other words, like you can make a different sandwich. It's like here's what I have to say. Like, like, you know, you make a lot of bitters, like for cocktails, and it's like I can make a different, I can make a bitters that I like a lot, but I'm not gonna make a better angostura because how can you be better at being Angostura than Angostura is?
+
+[12:26] You know what I'm saying? Waiting to see what he's got. Yeah, okay, here we go. Uh junk white bread is of course the way to go. Yeah.
+
+[12:35] Uh back in the days when it helped to build strong bodies 12 ways, we'd take that's what they used to say uh about the junk white bread. We take uh wonder bread, I guess, right? Uh we'd take two pieces, slather on is wonder bread back yet, by the way. Twinkies are back. Yeah, it's back.
+
+[12:48] Really? And we did a little news piece on it. So thank God. The deal is So you like Wonder Bread then? That's not that I like it.
+
+[12:56] It has no, it has nothing to do with whether you like it or not. It's wonder bread. It like it needs to exist. You know what I'm saying? Like when a French person comes to the United States and you wanna and you want to like show them like what it meant to be a kid growing up, you get Welch's grape jelly, peanut butter of your choice.
+
+[13:14] Mine would be probably Skiffy, Skippy, because although my mom was quite cheesy, she did not choose JIF. Chunky though, right? Really? I like either. But it's an interesting choice.
+
+[13:22] You're only a chunky man. I'm only chunky. See, here's my feeling. Like, I like chunky, but I think if you want to go full American on someone, you gotta give them, I think you gotta start with the the creamy and move into the chunky. All right.
+
+[13:33] I don't know, I don't know. And it has to be Welch's grape jelly. Yeah. Right? And so you you get the Wonder Bread, the Welch's grape jelly, and the peanut butter, and then you hand it to them, and it and what you have to say is, and you gotta remember, French people don't like concord grapes, and they don't like peanut butter.
+
+[13:50] They're they're freaks about it. They don't like either one of those things. And they like good bread. And they love good bread, they hate wonder bread. And so uh, and so you hand them the the the the the this the sandwich, right?
+
+[14:00] Which is like that's like how many of those did you pound when you're growing up? Oh, too many. Stas, how about you? A lot. A lot, yeah.
+
+[14:06] Like, and you can't like kids these days, that's not America anymore because a lot of the schools you can't bring peanut butter to anymore. But uh that was that's the sandwich, and and you hand it to them, and what you say to them is, hey look, I don't expect you to like this, but if you don't if you can't wrap your mind around this sandwich, then you can't wrap your mind around America, period. And then you just walk away. You know what I mean? And then they eat it and they're like, this is deadable.
+
+[14:27] That's not a French accent. That's not even French. Zisi is uh Zizi is a horrible. There you go. That's a little better.
+
+[14:33] Okay. Uh so anyway. So back to uh back to back back to John. Okay. So back in the days when it helped build uh strong bodies 12 ways, we take two pieces of bread, wonder, slather on some mayo and a couple of tomato slices, add bacon, and then instead of lettuce, you see here's a instead of lettuce, we cook a sunny side up egg in the rendered bacon fat and slide it onto the bacon and tomatoes.
+
+[14:53] When you want a sandwich that's greater than the sum of the part uh of its parts, this is it. Now, I agree that that might be a good sandwich, maybe even a great sandwich. I don't know that it's gonna be, you know, I think it's just a different sandwich. Jack, what do you think? Yeah, it's that's much better.
+
+[15:07] That's much more like a bacon, egg and cheese variation. Whoa, like bacon egg. I like the words bacon, egg and cheese are like some of the greatest words in the world. Bacon, egg, and cheese. So it's like a bacon, egg, and cheese with with tomato.
+
+[15:18] On wonder bread. On wonder bread. Do you like uh speaking of wonder bread? Do you like a grilled cheese sandwich with a tomato on it? Yeah, actually, that's that's always what I get.
+
+[15:25] Yeah? I do, yeah. I like a tomato. Stas probably hates that. Yeah, I don't like it so much.
+
+[15:29] Really? Because why? Because it's wet? I just don't like it. But I mean, is it the wetness?
+
+[15:34] Like, I'm trying to analyze. I don't like the taste of a tomato on grilled cheese. Even like a dried tomato? Right. Don't like it.
+
+[15:40] Alright. All right. Uh Tom Fisher writes in, dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and Joe. Sorry for not updating you last week on the eggnog. Uh, you know, they so we had a question a couple weeks ago about a traditional eggnog that's made and then let to sit for you know several weeks.
+
+[15:55] We gotta make that soon, Stuz. I know. Yeah, Piper made that weird tiki one. That's terrible. Pipe yeah, I love Piper who works with us, you know.
+
+[16:03] But uh he puts freaking tiki bitters and everything and he wants to tiki fy everything. He made this eggnog, and he's like, This is really good, right? And Stas and I are both like, no, it's garbage. It's garbage, right? Yeah.
+
+[16:15] It's garbage. What do you what do you remember what was in it? Uh no. And you know, look. Oh, it's her terrible.
+
+[16:22] Oh, it looked terrible. Oh my gosh, so bad. Piper's come up with some really good ideas recently, though. Like Piper did a, I think I don't know if we talked about it. We did it at the uh event we did at the uh Center for Discovery.
+
+[16:33] Sour cream simple syrup, right? Which is like it's that's Piper's like genius invention of the of the recently. Concord grape and vodka. That's that's a good drink. It's good.
+
+[16:45] We're gonna make that one for uh with uh absolute for Purno Ricardo in a couple of days. That's a good drink. It's a good drink. But the the tiki eggnog, not so much. Although interestingly, I did enlist Piper's help to answer this question.
+
+[16:56] So let's let's get to it. As you recall, I made a large batch of aged, aged eggnog, but was concerned as it appeared to be very thin about the consistency of whole milk. The recipe calls for it to be aged for a minimum of 21 days. Now, on day 12, the eggnog is thickened slightly to the consistency of heavy cream. I'll check in again next week to let you know how it's going.
+
+[17:14] But just for the sake of discussion, if it did not thicken on its own, what would I do thanks Tom Fisher? Uh okay. So uh so I I talked to Piper, as you may know, Piper who works with us and who makes terrible tiki flavored eggnog. Uh I worked for CP Kelco, uh, which is the Carrageenan masters for a while. And so um, and right off the bat, you're gonna wanna you you know that that carrageen is gonna be the way to go to really fix uh a milk system up very well because carrageenin has synergistic effects with milk, so you you don't have to use very much of it.
+
+[17:46] Now there are so I wouldn't use things like Xanthan, even though Xanthan's really easy, it's gonna snot it up real quick. And eggnog's already got textural issues for me. And if you want something creamy and smooth, you don't want any of the you don't want any kind of snot rocket feel to it, right? Stasmos not rocket, hate the snot rocket. So uh you're gonna want uh carragen.
+
+[18:06] Now there's three different fundamental, well, there's more, but like the three carrageenions you're most likely to come in contact with are kappa carragenin, iota carragenin, and lambda caraghenin. Uh and actually in cooking, you're most often just gonna come up with kappa and iota. Kappa makes hard uh brittle gels. You're not gonna want that in this. Iota makes kind of softer gels and is used in things like yogurts uh to get because it also re the gel resets.
+
+[18:31] Now you're not looking to gel, you're looking to thicken. And the prime thickening carrageenan, the one that's used in chocolate milk, for instance, lambda carrageenin, or maybe small amounts, small, small, small amounts of iota, tiny amounts of iota. Uh now, Piper told me about the stuff that he used to use uh when he was working for CP Coco, and he stole I maybe bought some, I don't know, stole some. It's called Genuvisco. They have such crappy names, right?
+
+[18:56] Who wants to put something called Genu Visco into into the into their product? Anyway, Genuvisco CSM2, C like cold, S like soluble, M like milk. So it's cold soluble in milk, so it doesn't need to be heated. And the good news there is you can add it after you've made your product because it does need to be heated. So Genu Visco CSM2, and you're gonna want to use that in the ratio of between 0.1 uh and 0.25%.
+
+[19:24] So anywhere between uh one gram per liter and uh 2.5 grams per liter. And now the problem is that uh CP Coco has set up a um a thing with Le Sanctuaire in California. So Le Sanctuaire is a distributor of CP Celco products. Uh Piper checked, and uh they don't have the Genu Visco CSM2 on their website. Maybe they can get it for you.
+
+[19:47] The closest thing that they have is Genu Visco J D S, which you use even lower quantities, point zero.02, so two tenths of a gram per liter. And the problem with that, aside from the usage, is it's mainly iota, and I think you might have I don't think that's cold soluble in milk. So you can probably call CP Coco and get them to send you some as a sample or pester La Sanctuare, and maybe they'll get it for you, but that's how I would uh go. Uh, should we take our first commercial break? We'll come right back after this commercial break with cooking issues.
+
+[20:54] They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While Underground Meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and Mule Foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami.
+
+[21:23] To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org. Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back. Call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[21:40] Speaking of underground meats, had a question in uh from uh Brandon uh Hodkins saying, Hello, hammer and the nails. So I'm the nails, I guess. Yeah. Near the hammer. That means you're gonna hit me over the head.
+
+[21:51] Like you don't already. We had a caller quick if you want to grab that first. Oh yeah? Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hi, David.
+
+[21:58] This is Johnny Clark from Memphis, Tennessee. How are you doing? Alright, how you doing? I'm doing good. Great.
+
+[22:04] I I had a question about uh preserving lemon and using Morton's kosher salt with that. Alright. I know what I found was there's like a three percent uh sodium ferrocyanide, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um sodium chloride, of course. Um when you the sardine and parascyanide hit is uh meat and acid, it forms uh toxic gas.
+
+[22:40] Well, we're where like uh as far as I know, Morton's kosher salt is one hundred percent sodium chloride. Where that where's that other thing coming from? It's anti-caking. Let me s me let me do a quick uh it would definitely be much less than that amount, but let me let me just check up. In the kosher salt they add an anti-caking.
+
+[23:02] In Morton's kosher salt they have uh anti-caking agent. Let me look it up here for you real quick. Um I also have another question about um something but go ahead. No yeah yeah look uh ask me another question and I'm uh because you normally like I would think that they would use I mean I've never heard of using uh sodium ferrocyanide as a as a it's it lists that on the package no I I had the uh search through the um Morton the MSDS and it would not it it I found it after a long search that it contains three percent which uh I don't know which makes it affects gluten tolerance so I don't know about that either. No it would have to be much like if they were to put something like that in it would have to be much lower than that.
+
+[24:07] Um but I'm gonna look I'm definitely gonna look that up in fact the reason I'm pausing as I say this is I am in the process of trying to look it up as we speak. But anyway um what's your what's your second question while we're while we're while we're where we're looking it up. I have uh I'm trying to package uh anaerobically some um cured meats and you know to have to be sliced thin and I've done it just uh in the vacuum machine and they lose color after being sliced anything that could help them maintain color so you're doing a normal cure red native dark right and you're doing a normal cure with uh with uh nitrites vacuum packing it and then slicing it it's uh it is cured and it is brine I'm sorry and um then it is uh smoked and to internal of about 140 by 150 and then it's packaged after it cools. Right. So I mean color fade is a well known problem in cured meats um because of light and I years ago had done some research on how to ameliorate color fading of cured meats.
+
+[25:48] I mean obviously the the the main thing to do is not to expose them to light. Any nitrite cured meat is going to uh gray out on you if you if you expose it to light. That's why you know when you go to the store and you see the old bacon it's all gray. You know what I mean? Because you lose the color in light but um I'm gonna have to it's been many many years since I've read uh the papers on um any attempts to make the pigmentation in a cured meat light fast.
+
+[26:19] Um I mean, if you store it in darkness, it shouldn't fade on you at all. But I don't know of a way off the top of my head to preserve the color if you're gonna have it be exposed to light in a retail environment. Now I'm sure there is I remember reading about years ago this is a big problem that uh meat producers have, right? And so I'm sure it's been solved, but I'm gonna have to um I'm gonna have to put that one on the uh I'm gonna have to put that one on the on the on the side do some more research for you and and uh uh and talk about it maybe next week when we come back. Stas, you send an email to yourself for next week's read done.
+
+[26:57] All right. So I'll do some research because it's something that I read about years ago but I just don't have it on the tip of my uh uh uh head uh tip of my head doesn't make any sense anyway but I like I'm interested I I was able to find that it is used as an anti-caking agent but the pr but the uh it's gonna have to be the back to the sign I think it's gonna have to be at a super low level and I also see that it's added in um what do you mean super low? Uh I mean I I'm gonna have to look up I'm gonna I'm gonna have to look it up. Um E535 sodium ferrocyanide I don't know how much is in there but mom studies it was three percent. It c maybe maybe it's three percent of the anti-caking agent but it can't be three yeah so then the question is how what percentage of the salt is is anti caking agent.
+
+[27:50] You see what I'm saying? So like uh as I understood yeah it was it was ninety seven and three no it can't possibly three percent of sodi sodium ferrocyanide, which is prussic acid, like I think it's basically the same as prussic acid, would be it would be d death to us. Um has to be I mean especially when it interacts with the acid. Yeah, it's gonna I mean like it's gonna have to be a much much lower uh much much lower percent. Um but I I'll I'll look it up.
+
+[28:25] I'll look it up and I'll I'll tweet that one out and then I'll also talk about it next week when I come back. Okay, can I uh send you email of any things I find? Yeah, sure. Uh yeah, the best way for me to see it, you can send an email to the the regular radio email uh or just tweet tweet me at at cooking issues, and then I can I'm much faster because I see my tweets pretty much every day. Okay.
+
+[28:48] And uh email says Which one what do we use now, Stas? Just mine. We use uh what uh Lopez dot Nastasha Gmail.com? Lopez.nastasia at gmail.com. Yeah, shoot shoot it my way, and I I'll definitely take a look at it because uh I'm interested to know how much cyanide they're allowed to put into our salt.
+
+[29:08] All right. All right, you too. All right, back to Brandon uh Hawkins. He writes uh hammer and the nails. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for a really good salami maker.
+
+[29:19] Thank you, Brandon from Phoenix, Arizona. Now the question is what do you mean by good salami maker? Now, do you mean like the people that make salami, like a producer of salami? In which case I've never had that, you know. Jack, have you ever had anything from the underground meats collected?
+
+[29:32] Yeah, it's very good. Hey, thanks for sharing it, brother. Thanks. We'll get you some more. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:39] I've never tasted it. I'm sure it's good. I I'd like to try it. I'd like to try their award winning goat salami. Would you like to try their award winning?
+
+[29:46] Yeah, I would like that. But no, nothing for us. Anyway, all right. Uh I mean, I like here in New York, I like the Salamaria Bialase guys. I think they're really good.
+
+[29:55] And uh, I mean, I think they're excellent, in fact. And um, and I love their products. And uh they were they were some of the like early, they were really early in the wave of people in America trying to make actual high quality salumi. So a lot of people who, you know, in in the past decade or so have um started making um salumi owe a lot to them because a lot of people learned uh and a lot of people who like a lot of people who have taught other people have learned from them. And so, you know, they're they're one of the you know, I think one of the people who deserve a lot of credit for what's going on in the in the US today.
+
+[30:31] I mean, another early an early salami thing, although I haven't had his products was uh Bertoli Cooking by Hand, which is a book we talked about before, had a really interesting section on Salumi in it. Uh I think that's you know that cookbook. I don't know if people read that cookbook. Did people still read that cookbook? Does uh does Mark like that book?
+
+[30:46] I don't know. I don't know. I thought it was at the time it was a classic. I haven't read it uh in a while. Um uh the uh Chris Chris Casantino, our friend, uh Bocolone makes a good product out of uh San Francisco.
+
+[30:58] Armandito Batali, Mario's dad. Uh you've had his stuff, right, really? He has a salumi place in uh what's it called? What's that place called? Seattle.
+
+[31:07] And uh, you know, uh good products. I've had some of his stuff. So a lot of good, but if but if that's not what you mean, maybe you mean uh equipment to make salami, in which case for a curing box, I mean, the cheap way to go, you go to like Auburn Instruments, or anyone get like a PID control for your uh and they have a humidity controller for your uh for your fridge. Or maybe you mean the sausage stuffer. Sausage stuffer, I really don't think there's any need to spend like a boatload of money on a sausage stuffer.
+
+[31:33] I've used the really expensive ones that are like hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the five-pound press, and then I've used uh the you know eighty nine dollar one from uh Northern Tool or Grizzly or whoever happens to be selling them, like to hunters. And the build quality is maybe a little better on the ones that are really expensive, but they stuff sausages just the same, you know. And so like I wouldn't, I wouldn't, unless you're a pro and you're doing it every day. I mean, it's a little bit harder to sanitize uh the crappy hunters ones because the welds aren't as good, and so it's a little bit more difficult to sanitize, but otherwise I would just stick with the $89 sausage stuffer. What do you think, Stuz?
+
+[32:11] Sounds good. Answer the question? All right. Never mind. Um interesting thing in from Michael Natin, and this fits in.
+
+[32:20] This is like this, like three things kind of fit into this uh farm to toilet kind of movement that we're you know dealing with. The uh, or if you have a composting toilet, I guess toilet to farm to toilet, right? That was what we're gonna have like uh Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink was joking that we're gonna do the farm to toilet uh um show. We're not we're not gonna do that. And then I was joking with Jack that we need to start the farm to farm to toilet movement.
+
+[32:44] But anyway, I think it's started. The farm toilet movement? Yeah. When this morning, just kidding. Yeah, just now farm to toilet.
+
+[32:50] Okay. But Michael Nakin writes in, our our good friend, uh, and Nastash has bought like eight copies of his book. I did. Like you buy bought it for all your friends? And family, yeah.
+
+[32:59] Nice. All right. Uh he wrote in and he said, uh, what you know, what do you what do you make of this? And it was this go on Amazon.com and look up by Bernard Jensen, tissue cleaning like tissue, not like blow your nose tissue, but like your bodily tissues. Uh Stas hates the word tissue as it as it pertains to bodily parts, right?
+
+[33:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tissue cleansing through bowel management. Yeah, that's Stas is making the bowel face. Tissue cleansing through bowel management. Uh, and you gotta go, and you know, and Michael's basically it's like like it's like holy crap, take a look at this.
+
+[33:41] You gotta look at the cover. The cover of this map of this book uh is uh it's like a yin yang thing, right? One halves in color and one halves in black and white, and the center of the yin-yang goes through the back side of like what looks to be a 10-year-old naked boy's butt with like an image of the colon like you might have inside, like like right there at the center of the yin-yang thing. And on the left side, the black and white side, it's all industrial pollution and like airplanes and power plants and factories, and on the right side in color is like all apple trees and sunlight and boids and all sorts of nice stuff, right? And so, right off the bat, just like you look at this picture and you're like, this guy's gonna be uh a nut job.
+
+[34:27] And so uh the awesome thing about it is you can look at a lot of it in the Amazon look inside thing. And so here is a choice, a choice tidbit. And I appreciate uh, you know, Michael bringing this to my uh attention, because it shows like here's the thing, right? It's like uh it's like any one of a number of like like the master cleanse idiot that we spoke about before that there's all these people who follow these cleansing regimens, and they're written by lunatics who have this idea that one single problem is or one single issue is the reason uh and the solution to all of our problems. And it's part of this really, really pernicious magic bullet thinking.
+
+[35:05] This this like this this idea, which really, really honestly, dates back, you know, hundreds of years, but in the US, most prevalent since uh, you know Graham and uh and kind of like this uh and and then later the the sanitarian the and the uh the sanitarium movement and the um like the water cure movement and the uh prohibition movement all the temperance movement all of these kind of things stem from this uh like font of evil pernicious thinking that is modern humans have degenerated right and we've we've lost kind of touch with ourselves and our bodies right uh and so we need to get back to that by purging and cleansing ourselves of all these toxins and problems right and today that manifests itself in juice cleanses and other sort of BS detoxifying crap right that you that you hear all about you back in the day it manifests itself with uh eugenics and uh uh mass genocide uh you know what I mean but it's like it's all like the same problems that there's a degeneration of and by the way people are gonna say I'm being hyperbolic but it really comes from the same and if you read if you go back and you read uh where like a lot of these like super crazy things come from they spring from an idea that human beings have uh degenerated and that there is this higher earlier self and it's also unfortunately mixed in if you look at the history of it mixed in with uh good tinges of misogyny there's usually a good dose of anti-Semitism thrown in there like there's all sorts because uh you know back in the uh 1800s and early 1900s, prior to the prior to Nazis, when a lot of the like classic and in quote, but like well-known literature on degeneration was being written that has to go. And in fact, there's a guy, Nordau is the classic author of uh the book Degeneration, which is kind of like the cornerstone of uh semi-modern uh pseudo-scientific thinking on the degeneration of human beings, literally says things like uh literally says things like uh Impressionist painters, this because that's the era he was writing in. Impressionist painters, the reason they paint the way they do is that their eyes have degenerated and they can't see the world like you and I can see it. Like really stupidity on that level. And remember, this is the same time people were going around measuring people's skulls to try and prove that the uh northern European was uh vastly superior based on the geometry of their skull, right?
+
+[37:37] And their brain cavity, like all of these sorts of things, and that you could tell what a criminal uh was like by the bumps on their on their phrenology. But you know, all of these are part and parcel of this idea that there was this great old thing that we've degenerated to. And the like this current feeling of uh that right now that manifests itself in detoxing, right, has its roots in this same sort of demented uh thinking, right? And it's people just don't connect the dots of where their ideas come from. So here's a quote from uh and it he's not talking about you know eugenics here, although Kellogg, who was one of these guys that you know, the serial guy Kellogg, was a believer in eugenics, as were a lot of these uh uh early, like a lot of these early people.
+
+[38:20] Crazy. Anyway, here's the quote that I love. The bowel-wise person is a blessing and source of inspiration to family and associates. His cheerful disposition comes from having a vital, toxin-free body made possible by the efficient, regular and cleansing action of a loved and well-cared for bowel. Every person who desires the higher things in life must be aware of proper bowel management, what it is, how it works, and what is required.
+
+[38:49] In so doing, you will discover many secrets of life. That's a great quote. Yeah. So if you just get your pooper in order, like, you know, all that cancer problem you have, it gone. Anyway, uh, thanks, Michael, for that uh little bit of craziness.
+
+[39:04] Uh, I appreciate it. I encourage all of you to go look at that crazy cover that that person has. But on the subject of poop, got two good poop stories. One, Nils Noran got back from Bali recently and went to a Kopi Luwak farm. And I hadn't realized, so Kopi Luwak is the coffee that comes uh from uh Indonesia, and what they do is is these uh civets, right?
+
+[39:25] Which are these uh as they're called civic cats, but they're not cats. And as Piper reminded me this morning, they're weasels, they're weasels, they're weasels. Piper, like Piper is a s is a hater of many animal varieties, hates beavers, they're on in quotes the list, right? Hates weasels of any variety. Anyway, hates rodents too, as we know.
+
+[39:42] We were threatening to put a woodchuck in a car with him. Remember that? Anyways, do not threaten, or do not even joke with Piper about putting a a woodchuck or any form of rodent in a car that he happens to be in. He's no sense of humor about it, that guy. Anyways, so I didn't realize that Kopi so what happens is these civets they eat the uh they eat the ripest choicest coffee uh cherries, right?
+
+[40:05] And then uh the bean, it they digest the outer uh hull and they poop out the bean, and then you harvest the pooped out beans, and one, they only eat the ripe ones, which is good because that means you know you're only getting the ripest berries, and two, their digestive system is supposed to do something cool to the to the coffee. And there's been studies on it that show that in fact it is altered in certain ways by going through the digestive system. Anywho's. So they have farms now in Bali, and the one I think that Nils went to is a Bali Polina. And Nils brought back some Copi Luwak for us to roast because it's green coffee, not roasted, which is amazing.
+
+[40:45] But he brought me back the special one that they don't sell. They had a one lying around. This one, Stas, you saw it, right? No. Have you ever seen it yet?
+
+[40:53] I have a picture. I'll tweet it out. It's still in log form. Now, I don't know about anyone else listening to this program, but my hat's off to the civet for being able to like create a full-on log after eating all of that coffee. These little suckers are eating just coffee, straight coffee, and like pooping out what looks like um like popcorn ball logs of like coffee beans cemented together with very little else.
+
+[41:23] And you know that if you and I were to eat that much coffee, like we would be set on spray like indefinitely. There wouldn't be any any log action. So anyway, I'll tweet the picture of that out, and then uh I have to figure out. I don't have that much of it, and so I have to figure out what the best washing and roasting thing is, but we'll we'll run through it. Maybe we'll put some some stuff out.
+
+[41:41] But I'd never seen it in log form. So that's the second poop story. And for the third poop story in our farm to toilet uh edition of cooking issues, uh yesterday, uh Nastasha and Piper at the lab were making lunch, and I wasn't really paying much attention to what they were making from lunch. And uh as they're eating, as they're halfway through their lunch, I walk over and I notice that they both have giant plates of uh of greens and freaking Jerusalem artichokes, sunchokes, and I'm like, Holy crap. Are you guys for real?
+
+[42:17] And they're like, what? What? I was like, You really never read The Curious Cook, have you? They're like, Well, yeah, uh parts. I was like, uh you haven't read The Curious Cook, have you?
+
+[42:25] And they're like, no. Even though literally we have a copy of it in the office waiting for Harold McGee to come back and sign because we're going to uh we're gonna auction that off at the at one of the museum things, right? So uh as McGee points out in The Curious Cook, which is a book you should all go get, uh, sunchokes are the fartiest vegetable in the freaking world. They're like the fartiest vegetable. They are so so they store their carbohydrates in the form of inulin, which is, I believe, uh a complex chain of fructose.
+
+[43:02] But your body can't digest this stuff, all right? And it contains a bootload of it. It's like almost, I think like it's it's can be as much as like 40% undigestible inulin in these freaking things, right? And so when you pound it, so if you have a couple of pieces of Jerusalem artichoke in a salad, all right, that's not that much like indigestible stuff. But these guys are eating split a pound.
+
+[43:26] Yeah, you split, you eat a half a pound a piece of completely insoluble freaking inulin fiber, like the fart machines. We're just gonna do it in front of each other. Just gonna just gonna roll with it. Yeah, and I hey people, I was the beneficial beneficiary of all this, but as it says in uh in the introduction to chapter five of uh The Curious Cook, which I'll read from taking the wind out of the sun route. It is strange that among North America's meager handful of contributions to the modern table, two of them should prove to be of such mixed miss mixed blessings.
+
+[44:11] One is the persimmons, whose delights and shortcomings are described in chapter 9. I'll leave you have to go buy the book. Uh you get it on Bookfinder. McGee republished this sucker. Anyway.
+
+[44:23] Actually, the snappily crisp tuber of a sunflower. This vegetable does develop a mild flavor reminiscent of artichokes when it's cooked. After centuries of neglect, it's showing up again in the markets and being grown or growing itself in home gardens. Unfortunately, the Jerusalem artichoke surpasses even dry beans in its power to cause flatulence. Not all cookbooks point this out, and those that do offer few preventative tips.
+
+[44:45] I've tracked down a couple of simple procedures that tone down the Jerusalem artichoke significantly. I also found that the usual explanation for the vegetable's peculiar name was demolished decades ago. There's long been a plausible alternative, and the time has come to dust it off. Well, I won't spoil because you should go read what the gotta go read this section. So I won't spoil about all the history that McGee goes into.
+
+[45:06] But he says that, and it's interesting because did you know this, Jack? I don't know if you knew this. Uh well known fact though, if you if you know McGee, McGee's career as a food writer started with the beat with the farting bean problem. Did you know that? I did know that because we did an evolutionary's uh life story on him, and that's that's pretty much how it opened.
+
+[45:25] Yeah, all right. There you go. Fascinating. So McGee is a you know, he's uh he he was at uh Caltech, and then he went to Yale for uh for graduate in uh in literature, I guess, and he's looking to write something. He's right and uh someone asked him about like why do beans make you fart, and so he he researches that, and that that was the genesis of on food and cooking was that.
+
+[45:47] And then uh and then later in Curious Cook, he tackled the even fartier problem of Jerusalem artichokes. And if Nastasha and Piper had only read that section, they probably would have A, not eaten quite as much of it, and B, they would have followed McGee's suggestions to slice it thinly and boil it for 15 minutes. It's better we found out with each other, because I told Piper you can never make that for a girl for dinner and expect her to stay over. So what if he had done that? So it's good that it happened.
+
+[46:13] Holy crap. And I asked him whether it was a painful sort of farti, and he said it was a painful sort of farti. Because it blows you up like a balloon. Yeah. Anywho, so slice it thin and uh boil it for like fifteen minutes, McGee says that reduces it, or McGee says cook it for a very long time, like twenty-four hours in a very low oven, it turns black and sweet because the inulin's broken down into fructose and then it's digestible.
+
+[46:37] I sent McGee a text uh earlier today. Uh I haven't heard back yet, whether or not he's uh ever tested doing the Jerusalem artichoke in a circulator, but I haven't heard back, so we'll see. Farm toilet edition of cooking itches. Um before the show's up too, we were wondering uh at the station if you had to make a cocktail for a Thanksgiving dinner, what would you go with? Me?
+
+[47:00] You uh And nostassif for that matter. When well what point in the evening am I having it? This would be like uh the the the pre-dinner cocktail. Oh carbonated country. Ah carbonated cocktail.
+
+[47:10] Pre-dinner? I like something with bubbles. Like uh I mean, I don't want something really heavy that's gonna drag me down. I I I like starting with a carbonated beverage. What about you, Stas?
+
+[47:21] What would you I mean? She's like champagne, the best cocktail in the world, champagne. Uh but you're thinking about like seasonal stuff. Piper's got that red hot poker uh squash drink, but I wouldn't do that before the Thanksgiving meal. Uh yeah.
+
+[47:36] I mean, I'd probably go, I'm trying to think of something that would be seasonal at that time. I don't know. What do you think about it for next week? We have two weeks of Thanksgiving. Alright.
+
+[47:45] Oh, and by the way, speaking of, you still have time to order your heritage turkey from Heritage Meats. Our. What are they? What are what's our relationship to them? I mean, obviously, Patrick Martin's Our Found.
+
+[47:57] Our founder. So, but the meat company is our founder? Heritage Foods USA founded the radio station. Yeah. So our our founding fathers.
+
+[48:05] Yeah. There you go. All right. Um, I have something on cocktails I can get to in a minute. But first, uh, I got something in from Robert Lax Esquire.
+
+[48:15] About the uh about the uh Mr. Softy thing we were talking about last week. Um Dear Dave, uh Nastasha and gang, uh a sincere thank you for the fantastic show, which has introduced me to many great new techniques and has improved my cooking skills and enjoyment immeasurably. That's nice. Now, this is this guy knows what he's talking about because here's what he says.
+
+[48:32] As a former good humor man, he had a good he was a driver of a good humor truck, which is awesome. As a former good humor man and now an amateur ice cream maker and enthusiastic ice cream eater, I share your interest in Mr. Softy, which I consider to be a fantastic product. Although it is inexpensive and without pretense, it tastes delicious. And I prefer it to many of the more artisanal soft serve offerings now available.
+
+[48:53] When I drove a good humor truck 25 years ago while I was in college, the sound of the Mr. Softy truck meant I would have to find another neighborhood to pedal my wares that day. Good humor's offerings are simply no competition for the Mr. Softy. Boom.
+
+[49:07] That's strong. That's a guy's like, I was selling the good humor. And when the Mr. Softy truck came, but here's the problem. I have noticed that the problem of Mr.
+
+[49:17] Softy product variability. Oh, uh, anyway, as you noted last week, Mr. Softy machines allow for variable overrun and provide a way for unscrupulous Mr. Softie drivers to sometimes provide more air than ice cream. Through some investigation, he's a lawyer.
+
+[49:32] So he was like investigating this stuff, which I love. He's a fraud lawyer, which is amazing. I love this crap. I discovered that the actual problem of Mr. Softy variability has a different explanation and kind of more sinister.
+
+[49:44] So he's going around and he was noticing that some ones were really crappy. And it wasn't just that it was lighter, but that the texture was wrong, right? It was a bad texture thing. So he looks up that the he looks up the Mr. Softie's telephone number, right?
+
+[49:58] And he beats his weight, and as he notes, right? When I remember I told you I went to their to their warehouse, their their supply depot, and they're not used to human beings at all. Like, it's just not what they do. And somehow, like at the time I was, I don't know, I guess in my late 20s or something at the time, they were like, ah, the f and they just let me buy the Mr. Softie mix.
+
+[50:17] Uh so he similarly, like somehow like waited his uh way through it and got to the president of Mr. Softy, right? And um the guy knew about it. Like, so and like he made it through, I guess, because he was like, listen, I you know, I grew up eating my whole life, I love Mr. Softy.
+
+[50:35] I even used to be your competitor and I quit because your product is so much better than what I was selling. You know, so he gets through to the president, and the and Mr. Softie knows what the problem is. And here it is. Ready?
+
+[50:45] The president of Mr. Softy explained to me that the trucks are owned by franchisees, many of whom hire drivers to run them. The franchisees keep track of the cash receipts they expect to receive from those drivers by reference to the amount of Mr. Softie mix that is used. A given amount of mix makes an expected number of servings and an expected range of cash receipts.
+
+[51:06] The problem, he explained, is that some drivers try to hide cash from their bosses by stretching the Mr. Softy mix by cutting it with plain milk and then pocket the extra cash. The weasels! The result is a substandard product for the consumer, less cash for the franchisee, and less royalty for Mr. Softy.
+
+[51:25] He didn't elaborate, but he told me that they were taking measures to tackle this problem. Anyway, I thought you would find this interesting. I do, Robert. It's extremely interesting. I detest food fraud in any form, whether it's by messing with the over.
+
+[51:37] I factually I'd rather them mess with the overrun, because at least then I got a light product and I know that the guy shafted me. If they add milk, then you think, as you did, that Mr. Softy's quality is just going downhill. It's a huge problem. You know what I mean?
+
+[51:50] And like it's like it's so old school. It's so old school fraud. It's like, you know, watering vodka or or, you know, you know, adultering milk back in the old days. That's like that really pisses me off. That pisses me the hell off.
+
+[52:04] Uh I don't know how they're gonna fix that, but they should, you know, but I guess they have to change how they're struck. Whatever. Anyway. He also says, it would be great if you could send a shout out to my good friend and your former caller, Steve from Moscow, who turned me on to the show and which uh gives us weekly reason to keep in touch to discuss the wisdom we learn from each podcast. Thanks and best regards, Rob.
+
+[52:23] Well, thank you. And on the way out, I'll notice this a couple weeks ago, uh, we were talking about eggplants and uh how they are kept uh super blue in Japanese uh pickles. And I got a note in from Jens Genshin who says that they're blue because literally in Japan they put iron eggplants. Eggplants, little eggplant figures. Figures?
+
+[52:45] Little like eggplants made of iron into the pickling medium when they do it, and that's what causes them to uh stay blue. Thanks, Jen. Jens, rather. Iron eggplants, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[53:06] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Brooklyn Slate Company, a manufacturer of slate cheese boards, coasters, and other fine items. For more information, visit Brooklynslate.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a birthday's pizzeria every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from Tuesday from Tuesday. Well to Tuesday. From roughly 12 to roughly 1245. She is out. I don't know where she is right now.
+
+[0:49] But we do have in the studio with us today Piper Piper Piper Christianson, right? Yep. Yeah. Uh and we are joined in the studio by and maybe maybe Stas left because Joe is in the uh engineering booth today and not Jack. And there's this, you know, new beef that Stas started last week with between you know her.
+
+[1:07] I heard about this beef. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize, but you know, it's okay.
+
+[1:13] We'll have like a East West Coast rap battle thing go on or something like that. Something, yeah, something like that. But yeah, you know, so anyways, don't have Jack. We do have uh a newcomer in the engineering booth. Evan, how you doing, Evan?
+
+[1:25] Great, how are you? Doing all right. It's it's like so uh this is first time uh to cooking issue show, right? I believe so. All right, calling your questions to 718 497-2128.
+
+[1:34] That's 718497-2128. With any of your cooking related questions, we'll be here to answer your questions for the next 45 minutes or so. Uh okay. Uh this in from Tony uh Harrian uh from the uh mixing bar in Brazil. Um, you know, don't dealt with him over the years.
+
+[1:51] I've never been to his bar because I've never been to Brazil. I'd like to go to Brazil. You been? No. We should do that.
+
+[1:55] Yeah, but I mean, like they have like the great, like some of the greatest fruit in the world in Brazil. I have you know I have whole textbooks on the crazy different fruits of Brazil. In fact, I believe it's called it's not called Crazy Fruits Brazil, but it's called Fruits of Brazil. And it's it's got a kind of a weird, but I really love it because it's got a weird kind of like light blue cover, and all the pictures of the fruit are on this like weird grid system that's like light blue and like they're all crazy colors, and some things they look like fruits. I mean, like honestly, they're like they're it's you know, like uh if you were gonna come up with like an alien movie, you would look for the fruits in uh this Fruits of Brazil uh book.
+
+[2:33] And then the thing I really like about the book, love it about it, I mean, is that uh it's very hard to get actually. You can get it at the fruit and spice park in their gift shop in South Dade, and there's a couple of Hawaiian fruit uh tree suppliers that sell it. Uh but the uh it wasn't on the Amazon when I checked. Strange. Anyways, uh what's awesome is is that it has a section in the back called exotic fruits.
+
+[2:55] And you know what's in there, Piper? Stripper fruits? Uh no, no, uh, the apple. Oh. Because in Brazil, that that crap's exotic.
+
+[3:03] They're like, an apple? Wow. Apple. I think what they mean by exotic is not from Brazil. Right.
+
+[3:10] Although now I have a stripper fruit going to When you were a kid, were you well, you were you're younger, a lot younger, confused by the fact that Striper, which sounds like stripper, is a Christian band. I don't know the band. No, no, no. Too young. Joe, you Joe, you with me on this?
+
+[3:23] You know the history of rock anyway? Not the history of Christian rock, I don't think. I'm pretty sure Striper is a is a is a Christian heavy metal band. Now you'll miss someone will look it up for me. Uh okay, this in from Tony.
+
+[3:34] Uh hello, uh, Heritage Radio Network and Cooking Issues team. Hope all is well. I had a couple of questions for Dave about non-alcoholic cocktails for the next show. Uh Piper, you can chime in here too. Dave, what is your opinion about the importance of non-alcoholic drinks on bar menus?
+
+[3:47] In your view, what makes a great alcohol free drink and what just doesn't work? Can you give a few examples of interesting drinks that worked for you in the past at events or at Booker Index, either high or low tech? And what are a few solutions that you try to use to mimic slash substitute for the taste or flavor kick of booze in a non-alcoholic drink? Here's an example from Darcy O'Neal. So Darcy O'Neill is the author of uh the book Fix the Pumps and is kind of the, you know, I would say, you know, one of the leaders in the kind of soda soda jerk, soda pump uh uh what's it called, um, resurgence in the past couple of years.
+
+[4:21] And he's a chemist by trade. Uh he has uh uh an excellent blog called The Art of the Drink, which you should look up. And uh Fix the Pumps is kind of like the classic small work, I mean, small, in other words, it's not long, you can read it quickly. Uh, on not small in terms of small and importance, because I think it was extremely influential, uh, on um kind of reviving old soda fountain stuff. And uh so consequently, you know, he spends a lot of time because you know the soda fountain movement went hand in hand kind of with the temperance movement, and people wanted to go out and do things and kind of have fun, uh, you know, in an era where they weren't legally allowed to go pound booze.
+
+[4:54] Uh and so, you know, the the the golden age of the soda fountain is kind of the golden age of the non alcoholic uh mocktail kind of a situation, right? Uh so anyway, so I highly recommend that you go buy Fix the Pumps if you haven't already purchased it. Um and he has an interesting post uh that's pointing to just all you need to look up is cognac oil. And what it is is it's the steam distilled like wine leaves, I guess, from the fermentation that they do. And so and Darcy says that it's kind of like a really good uh thing to add to non-alcoholic cocktails to give some or non-mocktails or whatever.
+
+[5:27] It's really kind of a bad name, mocktail. I always hated saying I don't like saying mocktail. I don't like I don't like the term. I don't like that you're being mocked for not having the alcohol. It also implies that it's kind of an UrsaT drink.
+
+[5:38] Yeah. Yeah. It it implies its own BS nature. It's bad. It's like it's like not a good term.
+
+[5:43] Someone needs to come out. I mean, the per first person I'm sure who said mocktail was like, Mocktail, I'm so smart. Like a piper, who's the king of puns, by the way. I don't know if he's gonna bust any of these puns out uh during the show, but you know, Piper, kind of king of puns, uh you know, that's you know, that's that's beneath you, right? Yeah, that's a little pedestrian.
+
+[6:02] Yeah, mocktail. But I'm guaranteeing the first person who thought of it thought they were a freaking genius, and now it is de facto the term for a non-alcoholic cocktail. Because non-alcoholic cocktail sounds dumb too. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[6:14] All right. They're still cocktails. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, are they?
+
+[6:20] I mean, shrimp cocktails, still cocktail. Oh, good point. The shrimp cocktail. I haven't thought of a shrimp cocktail. Uh, by the way, uh, you know, no offense to the shrimp cocktail.
+
+[6:28] The shrimp cocktail holds a certain um kind of you know feeling, but the crappy, crappy peat pe you know, pre-packed shrimp cocktail, like horseradish ketchup mix like of crappy shrimp plastered into a parfait glass, is weak. Like I would much prefer to have a very you know, nicely made cocktail sauce and then dip a well-cooked chilled shrimp into it rather than have it all kind of pre-glombed into a into a into a crappy glass. Am I wrong? No, I agree. Yeah.
+
+[6:59] Alright, so again, shrimp cocktail maybe doesn't deserve the title either. And just letting the shrimp defrost on the plate. The cooked shrimp. Oh, you hate that. I hate that.
+
+[7:08] What do you what about when you bite into it and you have that little bit of graininess because it wasn't fully thawed? What about the one where they thought in too much water and it inflates with uh with uh fresh water and then starts dripping everywhere. Yeah, it bleaves everywhere. Is that your favorite? I like it with eggnog, I guess.
+
+[7:23] Oh, Piper referencing the fact that Nastasha and I do not like his eggnog. Uh yeah, yeah. Uh okay. So Nastash Nastasha back back in the studio, but still but dealing with whatever the the aftershocks were of the telephone call she had to deal with. Uh uh here, there's a mic over on that side.
+
+[7:41] How are you doing, Stas? Fine. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah?
+
+[7:43] Everything okay? Yes, relatively. Yes. Yeah, nice and sweet. I like I liking everything okay.
+
+[7:48] So here is Darcy's uh recipe uh for aromatic cognac syrup. Five ounces of dealcoholized, it's it's a weird word, right? Dealcoholized. Dealcoholized white wine. I like I like to pronounce the extra H.
+
+[8:02] I don't know why. When I when it's wine, white wine. I like to add the I don't know why. Because I'm stupid. I think that's why.
+
+[8:09] Uh four tablespoons of wine jelly, uh, four tablespoons sugar, seven drops cognac oil, which you can get on the Amazon, by the way. I don't know the quality or not. Uh three drops of chamomile essential oil, three drops uh green peppercorn essential oil, and two teaspoons glycerin for texture. So Darcy in his poster he talks about cognac ale, and I recommend looking into it. Is it you know it's all about trying to mimic the mouthfeel, uh, the aromas that make you think that there's alcohol in there, and then uh some of the biting bracing nature.
+
+[8:36] Now I haven't gone that far into it. I mean uh Nastasha will remember we did a we used to we were doing a skull project with uh Nils Norrin years ago. We gotta we gotta start that up again. Yeah. I'm not gonna do that in my cocktail book, but Stas Stas thinks that when I mean start something up that I mean like today.
+
+[8:51] This is a this is the people out there, this is the classic stuff that uh this is the reason why I yell at Nastasha on air sometimes, and it makes me look like a bad guy. Because she'll sit here and make an uh face like I'm uh like a taskmaster ogre saying that we should maybe at some point revisit starting an incredibly fun project. So, yeah, so that makes me the jerk. Anyway, uh so the yeah, big jerk. Yeah, yeah, fun, big jerk.
+
+[9:16] Anyway, so uh skull project, and uh we had some the idea of the Skull Project is is that you know we we take pictures of people doing this uh Scandinavian ritual of the skull where they do a cheers uh with uh Aka Vit, or any Schnapps, any drink drink really, they do the shot, and you look in someone's eyes, you take the drink, and then you look back. And so we did these triptych pictures and it was fun. It was a fun project. Uh but we had some people we wanted to skull who uh didn't drink alcohol, and so then one of our problems was well, how do we mimic that? And our m our mimicked ones were kind of bad.
+
+[9:46] We wanted them to taste like aqua vite, so it was caraway infusions. Uh and then to make that like kind of like ah doing a shot of Aquavite, we added menthol to it, like menthol crystals. Remember a couple years ago when everyone was puttment menthol crystals in everyone? Yeah. Everything?
+
+[10:02] We were we were some of those people's menthol everywhere. Man, the people who took that shot, they made that kind of menthol face. You know, that menthol face. I don't know. I didn't like it.
+
+[10:14] But uh so when when we're designing uh in fact we don't have but Piper and I have done some non-alcoholic drinks that we want to put on the on the menu. There's a couple of things that you need for a non-alcoholic drink. Uh it can't be as sweet as soda. If it's as sweet as a soda, uh people tend to feel that they're getting a soda. Um sodas are generally in the range of about 10% sugar by weight, around 10 bricks, somewhere between nine and a half and twelve, right?
+
+[10:40] Twelve's like a toothache, but if it there's a lot of bitterness and flavors going on, it can be that high. Um so uh what you need to sometimes do is tone back the sweetness because most cocktails uh like they are in fact less sweet than that if they're carbonated. Now a non-carbonated cocktail can be that sweet, but it's counteracted by the fact that there's uh alcohol in it, which is going to cut some of the sensation of the sweetness. Um so the issue is is you want to do things on the dry side. That's why tonic water is so fantastic because the quinine in tonic water cuts the sweetness perception.
+
+[11:12] Tonic water is typically a little less sweet than than it's on the less sweet side of uh of mixers anyway, rocking around 9.5% sugar by weight, 9.5 bricks for all you techno techno freaks out there. Uh so I think adding bitterness back. Uh the other thing is if you can make something incredibly fresh, even if it would necess kind of be conceived of as a soda, if it doesn't feel like a soda because it's entirely new and different from anything anyone's had before, and you can dial back the sweetness a little bit. I'll give you an example. Piper and I uh clarified some uh watermelon juice um a while back, and uh we made a very kind of light and then we added lime to it, uh and with the peel in it, the peel adds the kind of the essential oils of a fresh peel, which takes it less out of the soda realm and into kind of the cocktail and did a carbonated watermelon soda that would have been good as a um as a non-alcoholic drink.
+
+[12:02] We I make a strawberry soda with freshly clarified strawberry juice that it has a huge punchy flavors, but it's not overly sweet. No one would confuse that for a you know a commercially made soda, and so they would appreciate that the care and time have been made in, you know, put into it for um for it to be kind of registered as something that's like a uh worthy of the the same feelings as an alcoholic drink. The other thing is if you if you can tolerate small amounts of alcohol, like if if you're doing it just because you don't want to drink and drive, then you know you can add all kinds of bitters uh which have alcohol in it uh to like we make uh hops bitters, a hops tincture actually, that you can add that adds like the real feeling that you're having kind of a beery thing to it without having a uh a beer. If you are it if you if you don't want anything at all alcoholic that makes it a little more difficult, then you can only do things like bittering agents and spices and not actual bitters and tinctures that are made with ethanol. But I mean, it's only if you're being very strict because the actual amount of alcohol you're consumed is less than you would consume from eating, for instance, anything that are fermented.
+
+[13:03] Um what do you think? Anything else, Piper, that I'm missing here? Well, I don't really drink soda, but I like sand bitter. So would there be a way to like it? Well, that's because the bitterness syrup.
+
+[13:13] Yeah, well, that's the thing. I mean, so like, you know, like uh so it's the bitter base of compari uh with uh it's a it's the bittering agent. You know what you do is is if you have the sweetness there and you add bitter to it, and all of a sudden it becomes more adult, and you know, it's a bitter lemon's a good one. It's kind of like a uh, you know, it's kind of like tonic but with uh more oils dispersed in it, so it's cloudy, but it's got bitterness and it's more grown up. It's slightly less sweet, it would be more grown up.
+
+[13:40] Uh yeah, so anything like that, like a sand bitters or you know, make would be uh kind of a good, I think a good choice. Yeah. Uh also if you just want a light, more lightly alcoholic drink, then go carbonate yourself some comparian soda, because that is delicious. All right. Uh next question.
+
+[13:58] Oh, by the way, uh if you're looking for cooling things other than menthol, we haven't done a lot of experiments, but you're gonna want with if you actually want to simulate alcohol, you're gonna need to s to stimulate the trigeminal uh senses, kind of. And I am not a fan of uh Sichuan buttons or things like that to do it, but there are like sugar alcohols that can be somewhat cooling on the palate that you might want to use, and uh things like cubebs have a cooling effect. There's also like you know, certain herbs like tarragon can have kind of trigeminal sense kind of uh but you you want to mess with that stuff back there to give people the sense that there's something's going going on. Yeah, okay. Um Eddie Shepherd writes in he has a new vegetarian uh book that he uh that on uh on the iTunes.
+
+[14:38] And uh do you have the uh title of it, Stas? I don't have the title of it. No. I don't have the title of it. Oh, here it is.
+
+[14:44] Uh it is a new digital cookbook on the iTunes called Vibrant Vegetarian. So I'll check that out. I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Uh see what's see what's going on. Vibrant a vegetarian.
+
+[14:53] I am I'm a fan of alliteration. Piper, do you like alliteration? Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Everyone likes alliteration.
+
+[14:58] Do you know that in the old days, uh, you know, before um, you know, English was polluted by the Norman conquest in 1066, uh, you know, English poetry, old English poetry, was a strictly alliterative and non-rhyming uh you know thing based on a kind of a very complex structure of meter and alliteration, like old school Beowulf is you it's it it's completely unintelligible, but it makes you pine for the days when alliteration was kind of the way to go, and we still have that sense of alliteration in our language. That's why rap in Amer in English sounds so awesome, you know, especially American English with all kind of our flat our flat pronunciation of everything. That's why rap is so amazing here in America, and when you ship it, I mean, no offense to MC Solar, but I mean, you know, French French no offense to French rap, but you know, you're not, you know. Anyone with me here? I agree.
+
+[15:52] Yeah, all right. What about you, Joe? You you with me on this? Can't say I really listen to much French rap. Yeah.
+
+[15:59] Maybe uh you can make me a mixtape or something. Uh yeah, look, look, like, you know, MC Solar Galactica, it's all it's all good, but whatever. It's not as cool. It's not that it's not as cool. It's like alliteration.
+
+[16:11] It's like it's why bail will sound so awesome. Like, what we got a day and I and you got a diagram. You know, it's like very visceral. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like anyway.
+
+[16:18] Okay. Uh I I think that's the first line available. If I can't remember, it's been it's been twenty-five years. Okay. Uh I don't know what the hell else.
+
+[16:25] How'd I get on that? Oh, vibrant vegetarian. Oh, here we go. Uh the question I wanted to ask is about dry ice. I use dry ice for a number of culinary applications.
+
+[16:33] For fast freezing, carrying aroma, etc. I also don't currently have access to liquid nitrogen. Pity. Pity. Pity.
+
+[16:43] But in the UK, it's not all that easy to get hold of dry ice. It isn't widely uh available, so generally you have to order it in reasonably large amounts, at least 10 kilograms at a time. That's uh 22 pounds for you US folks out there. Uh, which is inconvenient and quite expensive. Get this Piper.
+
+[17:00] 80 bucks for 10 kilograms. 80 bucks. 80 pounds or 80 bucks. He says bucks. I'm sure he I'm sure if he's in the UK, he has a little key set for pounds, so he could do it.
+
+[17:09] He must have done the conversion for us. Yeah, that's nice. Thanks. Nice. Uh especially if you are cooking for small numbers of people at a time.
+
+[17:15] I wondered if you had any experience with producing your own dry ice for culinary uses. I've seen online that some equipment is available for making dry ice. These basically seem to be simple things which attach to CO2 tanks. Do you think these might be a good route for making small amounts of dry ice around a kilogram at a time in a more affordable and convenient way? Also, do you think something like these bits of equipment could uh be made at home rather than bought?
+
+[17:37] I know Dave is both very handy with this kind of DIY stuff, and also self-proclaimed cheapskate, so I'm hoping he'll have some tips on this. All the best, Eddie Shepard. Okay. So what you're looking for here yes I have, yes, I have done this. You're looking for something that works on something called the Joule Thompson effect.
+
+[17:56] And the Joule Thompson effect fundamentally is that most gases will uh most real gases when they expand you know rapidly and don't uh give off don't have the time to give off heat to the environment will chill. Uh and in fact um it's so much so that you can convert uh CO2 at room temperature to uh dry ice because remember dry ice doesn't want to exist as a liquid in at atmospheric temperatures uh at atmospheric pressures rather doesn't want to exist as a liquid okay so uh here here here's how here's how it works. Now there are plenty of people on the internet who say that you can make dry ice by taking a CO2 fire extinguisher and putting a bag over it and then squeezing the trigger for a while and then chilling the stuff off and you probably can make some dry ice this way. However this is extremely inefficient process right so that what the what what the items are what you need first of all is a siphon tank. So in the US they're sold as 50 pound CO2 cylinders with a siphon.
+
+[18:58] And what that means is there's a tube extending from the top of the tank all the way down to the bottom so that the pressure on the top from the gas is forcing the uh liquid through the tube and you're actually spraying until it depressurizes you're spraying liquor up liquor liquid CO2 out of the uh out of the tank. So that's the first thing you need is a siphon tank. Siphon tanks are also good if you're gonna fill a lot of your own CO2 tanks. Uh you know, it's good to have a siphon tank because it's easier to fill out of a siphon tank, trust me. Uh the other thing you're gonna want to do is well then then the the commercial ones, you screw a brass valve on it that can handle the high pressures, right?
+
+[19:35] And then that brass valve is designed to more efficiently uh expand the CO2 and convert the maximum possible amount of it into dry ice. There's then a sack attached to that which allows the extra uh gas to shoot out and then collects the dry ice as a snow in that sack. Now there's various, you know, and that's the cheapest one. That's like a hundred bucks that one. And then there's various kind of levels above that that you and you can make it yourself from the valve once you own the valve, and you possibly could make the valve yourself, but I don't know.
+
+[20:05] I don't want to I haven't done it, so I don't want to get into it. But then they they kind of route it through a wooden box or a plastic box, and then the dry ice impacts into the box and compresses itself into a brick, and then you can make a brick that way. I'm sure that once you have the the Jewel Thompson valve scenario thing that you could modify it from a sack collector, because the snow is kind of a pain in the butt, it goes away quickly, to a brick maker. Now, here's the downside. This is an inherently uh inefficient procedure.
+
+[20:34] So uh first of all, uh you know, if you look frigid mat from Bell Art in the US makes uh these makers, and they caution you that it's re you're really only converting the liquid. Once once you're out of liquid, you're not really converting that much more uh into dry ice. And the amount of liquid in your tank is not the same as the weight. So at atmospheric uh a normal cylinder uh at you know at um regular room temperature, only like two-thirds of that or a little more, 70% of that is probably liquid, and the rest is is a form of compressed gas on top. So already out of a 50-pound cylinder, your yield is down to you know 70% of that.
+
+[21:11] Now, take into that that on your on a usage base usage basis, the best you're ever going to get is about 45, 46% of the weight of the CO2 that you spray out of it as dry ice. So that's of that 70, less than 50% of it's gonna turn into dry ice, right? The other thing is sucker's loud. Let me put this, let me say this again. Sucker is not quiet.
+
+[21:32] You know what I mean? Because you're you're opening a tank and spraying it out as fast as you can. It's loud. I mean, you've done that before, Piper. It's loud.
+
+[21:38] Yeah, it's loud. It's loud. It's irritating. You don't want to do it at a bar. No.
+
+[21:42] Or in your living room at night. No, it feels dangerous. Yeah, it's no, it's not the fun. Anyway, I mean it is fun, but it's not fun for other people who don't think that kind of thing is fun. Um and certain ones are much less efficient than others.
+
+[21:56] So the thing is you gotta figure out how much is it gonna cost. Usually on a 50-pound cylinder, you don't buy it, you rent it. And so you have a rental fee on the cylinder, and then let's say it's a 50-pound cylinder, uh, let's say that 70, let's say you get a third of 70 is like what's 70 divided by three piperts like 20, like 25%. Let's let's say you get 25%. So a quarter of 50 pounds, you're gonna get like 12, 12 and a half pounds of uh dry ice out of a 50-pound cylinder.
+
+[22:26] So then the question is how much are you paying for the cylinder? If you're if you're paying the good news about the cylinder is is that you could keep it there for eight years, not eight years because you need to rehydro test, but you could keep it there forever and then make the dry ice when you need it, and there's no sublimation of the dry ice when you know you make it when you need it. So there's no loss that way, but you have to figure out like what your overall cost would be to buy more than you need, have it sublimate, use it, and then have it go away, versus, you know, you know you're gonna get 12 pounds of of uh CO2 out of this tank and uh this dry ice out of this tank, and then is it cost effective? And I just don't know. I haven't done the math in a while, but uh I remember when I when I broke my uh dry ice maker I didn't buy another one if that's any indication.
+
+[23:08] Uh and but you know of course I had liquid nitrogen so there's not as much m need. Here's another thing. If you have a walk in free uh uh fridge uh you should before you make the dry ice the colder your cylinder is the higher the yield you're gonna get out of it because the more uh of the product will be liquid. Yeah yeah you have a caller. Oh caller you're on the air.
+
+[23:29] Uh hey Dave uh Dan Seattle two questions. Well actually one's a comment. Um you were talking about fish sauce last weekend. Yep. Have you ever had the uh red boat fish sauce that became available from Vietnam in like the last 18 months or so?
+
+[23:42] Yeah I like it a lot. Okay. I mean I think it's much better than anything else out there that deserved one. Yeah no here's the problem and it thank you for calling in and the reason is is because the taste test that I had done was before that stuff was available and then so when I thought taste test I just went back into my mind to the old taste test and it wasn't in that lineup because it wasn't available yet. But yeah that stuff's excellent.
+
+[24:04] Alright I was just curious about that. Um and then um my actual question I made the full modernist uh chicken soccer week or three ago and it came out fantastic but it took me a hundred years to actually fry all the ground chicken for the amount of stock I was making. Because I actu I actually deep fried it was my interpretation of what the recipe says to do. Yeah that's a I forget who originally I mean uh I remember Wiley told me uh that about that, and that was a protocol based on some for that's like a ten-year or twelve-year old protocol from someone out of Europe grinding and deep frying, but I forget who originally came up with the I forget who originally came up with the idea, but yeah, okay, go ahead. Okay, so it came out fantastic, but on a home stove, and I've got a pretty good home stove, the time to actually deep fry several pounds of ground chicken, I mean it went on forever.
+
+[24:53] If it if I put the ground chicken, if I spread it flat on a sheet pan in the oven, can I get somewhat close to the same effect? And how much oil and time and uh your first guess at time and temp? Yeah, well I wouldn't I wouldn't sp spread it flat so much. I think like the whole uh the the benefit of the deep fry on the grind is that you're getting maximum surface area of stuff that's browned. Uh and so I would kind of leave it fluff as fluffy as you can.
+
+[25:22] Uh and then I would put them on uh on like as many pans as you can fit in your oven and just pan them in. Uh and I would do like whatever you know you don't want you the the trick is you don't want to scorch it. So I would I would probably do somewhere in the range of 375, 400 Fahrenheit. Sorry, Europe, I turned my oven in Fahrenheit. Uh but like uh somewhere in that range and let the let the stuff roast off like you would a normal bone.
+
+[25:46] I don't think it's gonna require that much higher. Although you probably could go higher because it's so small that I mean the grind, but I I would still stick in that range just because I don't think it's gonna be necessarily beneficial to crank it to 500 or 550, and there's no reason to go lower. So I would I would be somewhere in that 375 to 425 range. If you have a convection, that'll help blow some of the moisture off and get it browning faster. Um but I would definitely leave it kind of fluffed up because the whole concept of that recipe is to uh is to get browning on the maximum possible surface area of uh of product.
+
+[26:21] I will give that a shot on my next go. Thank you very much. And uh do me a favor, tweet me in at at cooking Issues and t tell me how it worked. I will, I will. Thank you so much.
+
+[26:32] Thank you. Bye. Hey, hey, you want you guys want to go to our first commercial break? We're gonna come back for the first commercial break. Calling questions 27184972128 Cooking Issues.
+
+[26:51] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network.org today. Slate quarry in upstate New York in the spring of 2009.
+
+[28:03] The two grabbed a few pieces for use as all purpose boards back home in Brooklyn. They found a number of purposes for the slate and began gifting pieces to friends. The response was so overwhelmingly positive that the two struck out to produce a line of slate products. They now make regular trips to the family quarry in upstate New York to hand pick their favorite pieces of black and red slate. Some of the slate is sourced from the quarry graveyard, a collection of odd shaped pieces that were ultimately destined to be ground for use as road cover or baseball diamonds.
+
+[28:34] They then transport the pieces to their studio in Red Hook, Brooklyn, where they do additional cutting and clean the stone to be food slate. Every single piece of packaging that comes with their products from the envelope to the burlap bag, can be repurposed for other uses. The end result is a product completely unique in cut, shape, color, and overall presentation. For more information and to order, visit Brooklyn Slate.com. Now through December, enjoy 10% off your purchase at Brooklyn Slate.com with discount code Heritage.
+
+[29:05] And we're back! I like the Brooklyn Slate people. We actually accidentally shafted them. They donated a bunch of stuff to the museum a couple of years ago, and then we had to tell them that that you know we didn't have our 501c3 status in order, so we love them and thank them and are sorry about that. I think we told them they're invited to any event that they want to.
+
+[29:24] Yeah. They're good people. They make they make they make good good. I like slate. Slate is a good product.
+
+[29:30] Yeah. I mean, of course, Piper thinks so he's from Vermont. Uh Vermont. It's the New Hampshire of next door. Whoa.
+
+[29:39] I don't know whether you guys know this. People who people who like, you know, aren't from the Northeast of the United States might not know that you'd think that Vermont and New Hampshire, which are basically identical structures, like flipped and then stuck next to each other, like they look identical to each other, just kind of flipped end for end and glued together. That these guys they don't like each other so much. It's kind of like it's kind of like they don't like each other. We're from different parts of Pangaea.
+
+[30:02] It's not it's not the same place at all. I mean, like physically that they look the same, just flipped. Right? I mean, Vermont looks like an upside-down New Hampshire. Yeah.
+
+[30:10] Or vice versa. Right. Yeah, and they're both literally right next to each other. Right. Like a doppelganger.
+
+[30:16] Yeah, but New Hampshire has no laws. Seat laws. They have no seatbelt. You don't have to have insurance in New Hampshire, you know that? I didn't know.
+
+[30:23] I don't live free or die, right? Yeah, live free or or die. Turns out that whether or not you live free, you eventually will die. Uh anyway. Uh interesting.
+
+[30:31] Michael Nakin writes in, uh, he was enjoying the farm to toilet uh discussion we had yesterday last week. And he goes, Dave, love the c uh tissue cleansing through bowel management rant. You exceeded my fondest expectations. Well, well, well, thank you. Uh Nastasha and Piper.
+
+[30:46] This is regarding their uh overindulgence in Jerusalem artichokes last week. Uh, which, you know, if case you, you know, well, of course, you know, if you didn't hear last week, Jerusalem artichokes contain uh a very, very large quantity of a non-digestible polysaccharide called inulin. And uh when you eat a large quantity of inulin, you you have painful bloating tooting phenomena going on for a good long time. And I I was laughing because had they just read The Curious Cook, they would have known this beforehand, and both Piper and Nastasha for lunch decided to just inulin themselves like straight up the wazoo. Anyway, so uh Michael writes in, uh Nasasha and Piper, may I suggest you read Undaunted Courage?
+
+[31:31] Uh, if I'm remembering it right, Lewis and Clark had to overwint in uh overwinton, overwinter with uh uh Mondan Indians for two years in a row in the frigid Minnesota winters. They were stuck inside the teepee's for months at a time, and guess what? The main source of food was? Yep, Jerusalem artichokes. Can you imagine the aroma?
+
+[31:49] Compared to that, the two of you are probably like a field of daisies. So you can tell Dave to quit his whining. Michael Nakin. Nice. Nice.
+
+[31:58] He's a good guy. Yeah, yeah, that's a good guy. Good guy. Strong. Uh another thing before we go any further, uh, we are going to announce that Booker and Dax is going to have the Kickstarter launch for the Sears All.
+
+[32:10] Sears all Sears All on Black Friday. That's right. For those of you that aren't from the United States, Black Friday is the day after Thanksgiving when everybody is supposed to go out and consume like wild people here in the U.S. for the Christmas season. And we have decided to put our Kickstarter on air for the Sears All on Black Friday.
+
+[32:29] You want you guys want to talk about this a little bit? Yeah, well, we're launching at uh actually midnight on Thanksgiving. Well, it's not Thanksgiving anymore, if it's midnight. Piper's the guy that came in. Maybe this is a Vermont thing.
+
+[32:39] He's like, So midnight is that is that AM or PM? I'm like, it's A, it's the next freaking day. It's the next freaking day. Mom listens to the show. Uh I'm sure your mom knows that it's the next day.
+
+[32:52] I'm just breaking on you. Anyway, whenever I say anything, Piper's like my mom listens to the show. That's that's what he always says, what? It's still gonna feel like Thanksgiving at midnight on I agree. I agree.
+
+[33:02] You know, as far as the human body is concerned, it's not the next day till you wake up. That's why if you pull in all nighter you'd like your calendar gets messed. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, though uh from from a feeling standpoint, you're right.
+
+[33:11] Regardless, we're launching it on midnight on Black Friday. Yeah. So the uh so anyway, and we're gonna have it up. We haven't decided yet whether we're gonna run it uh to Jan 1 or whether we're gonna kill it on uh the 26th of December. Have we decided?
+
+[33:26] Twenty fourth was what we're gonna say. Midnight on Christmas. Why would you do that? I don't know. No, I said we should have it run through.
+
+[33:35] Okay. Anyway, it'll be on Kickstarter. So here's what here's what the here's the story with it. So, you know, for those of you that uh, you know, I don't know, uh don't know. Uh here's the problem.
+
+[33:47] When you're at home, uh often you don't have access to very, very high intensity heat source to do things like finish low temperature meats or any anything like that. So normally a lot what a lot of people do, which I think is a horrible idea, is they use a torch. And when you use a torch, you create all sorts of off flavors in uh in the food that they're we call it we call it uh torch taste. Torch taste. Torch taste.
+
+[34:11] And it smells like uh products of combustion, and indeed uh, you know, Ariel at UC Davis did some GC mass spec for us and showed that in fact you are creating kind of secondary compounds from the super high intensity high uh heat flame from a torch uh that cause these kind of off flavors. So we developed and have a patent pending on this little device that turns uh the heat from a torch into a three-inch uh like infrared uh radiant or not radiant infrared broiler kind of uh that you can hold in your hand. Uh and so it makes kind of very quick work of that. It's also you know, reheat pizzas, whatever, do whatever you want. Uh melt, you know, gr Piper likes to grill cheese with it.
+
+[34:49] I like to finish steaks. It does great work on scallops. It's the only way I would ever cook foie gras ever again. I would never cook foie gras any other way ever. It's actually a higher heat intensity than uh a salamander, it's more similar to a deck broiler.
+
+[35:02] Um but anyway, so we're gonna launch this guy, and I also like it because like let's say it in a restaurant, it's not really for like very like heavy duty use in a restaurant because it's small and you have to hold it while you're working. We're we you know, years we have a patent on the on the technology, so like we could build a huge one that would be like the world's most insane uh, you know, grill if we wanted to, but that's down the line. Anyway, but in a restaurant, like if something comes out and it's not totally finished right, you could finish it, like you know, spot finish things, or if you're on Gaudranger and you have like one particular thing you want to do, you don't want to like ha be near a hotline, you can finish something right there. Or if you're doing catering events, or you know, you're out at a picnic and you want to, you know, just have something you can carry around and just put like a nice flame on some kind of smaller things. It's kind of a good tool for that, right?
+
+[35:45] Yeah. Do you agree? Um, you know, and I like it better for things I don't like it, like it's first of all, it's more powerful than a heat gun. Like the t it it plu literally plugs on a torch. So it's converting a torch to this other thing, and you could take it off and use your torch as normal, or you can put this on and and use it like a Searzole.
+
+[36:01] Um I like it better than it's more powerful than something like a heat gun. Torch you don't want to use because it makes bad taste. Heat gun would be okay, but heat gun is much more kind of focused and smaller, and uh it's not as not as powerful. And the big thing I don't like about the heat gun is got a t uh got a cord on it. I hate having to have cords on stuff when I'm using it in in a kitchen.
+
+[36:21] It's really irritating. Uh anyway, so we're gonna kick start that thing. And have we agreed on the on the kind of what we think it's we should not talk about price or anything like that, right? Not yet. Still hammering it out.
+
+[36:32] Because the the deal is is that we need uh pretty good insurance uh for this. So we have the insurance and we're gonna have to go um and get it manufactured. Right now, Piper and I go down into the basement of Booker and Dak's lab and weld all these suckers by hand. And uh we don't intend to do that. No.
+
+[36:47] We want to have the best product made that we can. So we're still working on figuring that out. But yeah, so anyway, so we hope you all come by it. Uh and this you won't have to tweet me anymore and ask me when we're finally going to kickstart it because we're we're gonna do it. You can see it on Al Jazeero America.
+
+[37:03] I don't even know was it on that? Was it actually on yeah? Did it look okay? Did you see that? I haven't seen it yet.
+
+[37:08] Yeah. Anyway, okay. Oh, and we started a uh Twitter for the Booker Index Lab. Oh yeah, what is it? At Booker Index Lab.
+
+[37:16] And we'll be uh posting some photos of the Sears all and the stuff we do there. Ooh, follow antics. Follow, follow, follow, follow the follow the at Booker Index Lab. Follow us. Yeah.
+
+[37:24] Uh what are you saying? What's going on? Hey, so Dave, I have a I have a question in that's uh basically what does the trans fat ban mean for the mass marketers of things like sweets and candy and all everything that has lots of trans fats in them. Uh it'll probably just make it a little more expensive. You can remove trans fats, like there's uh you know, like you can go into the store right now and buy trans fat free Crisco.
+
+[37:46] Uh it's just uh probably it's probably gonna be a uh cost increase. I mean I would say that's uh that's about it. There's no in other words, the transness of the fat doesn't uh change the functionality of the fat. The transness of the so it's what w the the deal is is that um when you um you know when you r remake and break double bonds, you can do it in in a in a way where uh where they the depending on cis and trans has to do with what side of uh of a you know a double bond they the substituted chains are on, cis meaning it's on the same side, and trans meaning it's on the opposite side. Uh and so um the cisness or transness doesn't affect really things like the temperature at which the fat melts or anything like that.
+
+[38:34] Uh it affects more the um it affects more how your body reacts to it. And so the it's in the manufacturing of fats that they produce um you know of uh things like Crisco and other shorties that they produce these trans fats. So all you have to do is then get rid of the trans fats or do another process to isomerize them to trans. And so all I can foresee really is a price uh maybe a a price increment and not a functionality increment. Does that make sense?
+
+[39:05] Yeah it makes completely sense. Okay. Um got a question in from we talk enough about the uh Sears all there. Mm-hmm that's good. What about what is it called Booker and Dax Lab?
+
+[39:16] At Booker Indax Lab. At Booker Index Lab who runs that you run that Piper? We co-run it the hammer and Piper. So if you need if you don't want to if like you look Nastash's Twitter handle is hammer uh at hammer BDX. I don't think she ever looks at it.
+
+[39:28] I do. Yeah. Every day. Yeah. And and Piper I think has Piper BDX or something like this, right?
+
+[39:34] Yeah, not getting a lot of action these days. No. Nice. Alright. But anyway, uh follow those guys and for all the what's a who's anyway.
+
+[39:41] Uh Alex writes in hello Dave Hammer and the revolving cast of others. Jack or whomever else there may be there this day. Oh what's up, whomever? Joe. Oh hello.
+
+[39:52] Yeah. Uh excellent show your efforts are greatly appreciated. I've convinced my wife that a kitchen update is a good idea. Strong. Uh I am stealthily trying to put some more precise slash modern tools into the plan.
+
+[40:03] We have a six burner gas range and I want to expand my options. My wife is reluctant to give up the storage or the counter space, but she is open to a flat top perhaps even a 24 inch accu steam griddle if I can find one in good shape. Uh accu steam griddle for those of you that don't know is a is like a sandwich layer stainless steel griddle that has water on the inside and it has an extremely fast recovery rate. Everyone that has it in a short order situation loves it because the recovery rate is almost instant and everybody respects them and thinks they're great. The only downside of them is that uh they they can fail because they're a pressure vessel and need repair, and repair on an accu steam is expensive.
+
+[40:39] So if you talk to people who don't make, you know, people other griddle suppliers, and you're like, what about accu steam? They're like, oh yeah, yeah, it's it's great. The only thing that we can say is that it might break, and then you're at SOL. Anyway, that's just my my two my two cents, but they are good products. Uh while they look fun, uh, and then can release my uh inner short order cook, that's the AccuStream.
+
+[40:57] I don't know how much use it would get in a world where uh a fry pan or two will usually do. You know what? Another good thing to get any sort of like the problem with most griddles is they don't have a super, they're not really high heat enough and they and they don't heat up quickly enough. In my house, I have a uh an actual gas fire, the electric ones are garbage. A gas-fired uh crampus crepe maker, which is how wide is this, 18 inches my hands?
+
+[41:20] 24. Yeah, it's somewhere between 18 and 24 inches, uh cast iron top. Heats up to if I need it to 615, can throttle down to um you know, down to uh low enough temperature to do pancakes and even lower, and it's super fast and it's fairly compact and it's on the counter, gas fired. This thing is awesome. They're hard to find here in the US, but next time you're in France, they're not that expensive in France.
+
+[41:43] And you can get them here in the US, they just cost twice as much as they should. Anyway, uh I do not know how much I would get to use a griddle where a fry pan or two would usually do. Instead, I want to push, I'll tell you what's good on that uh crepe maker is uh razor clams. Oh, razor clams, plancha style. Razor clams.
+
+[42:00] Uh instead, I want to push for a 20 to 35 pound uh tube deep fryer. I've been okay with frying on the range top, though the small batches and consistently adjusting the temperature, recover them, and then not overheat them can be a pain. So a better solution is sought. I've heard you mention that to become a master of the fry, you need a real fryer. True.
+
+[42:18] True. My wife's concern is the safety, maintenance, slash cleaning requirements, and how big it should be to be useful. Assuming I use a quality fry oil, and you should get commercial fry oil, by the way, uh commercial. Uh what kind of life can I expect out of the oil? How often is it filtered or replaced?
+
+[42:33] How should it be stored? Besides a type K fire extinguisher, are there any other safety precautions you recommend? Any features I should seek? Any other advice on whether or not a fryer is a good idea? Thank you, keep up with good work.
+
+[42:42] Well, look, from a cooking standpoint, there's no question that a deep fryer is a good idea. It's unquestionable. From a cooking standpoint, let me put it this way there is no question. Um lasts in a home environment for a tremendously long time. Uh if you, you know, you f you fit filter it regularly.
+
+[42:57] Uh I just keep it in the fryer and cover it completely so that it's not exposed to air or light so that you're not getting light-based oxidation or a lot of oxygen uh oxidation on the top of it, and it lasts for a long, long time. And you can just test it uh in between fries with a with like a piece of bread to taste to see whether the oil is starting to get that cardboardy rancid taste. But because you're using a tube fryer and all the stuff sinks to the bottom, it's gonna last a long time. Get it, you know, a stainless steel uh pot and you're good. Like the old the iron ones aren't as good for keeping anyway.
+
+[43:26] Here's the thing, your wife is 100% right. These are completely uh not necessarily safe in a home environment, they're not rated for a home environment, and let me put it this way this might uh void your homeowner's uh insurance. If you have a fire based on having a deep fat fryer in your house, a commercial deep fat fryer in your house, your uh homeowner's insurance might be void. Let me say that again. Your homeowner's insurance might be void.
+
+[43:47] Uh also if you're not set up to battle a fire from a fryer or you don't know how to use a fryer or you're gonna freak out if there's a fire, this is a dangerous proposition. I I will point you at these YouTube things. Look up Mythbusters water on oil fire, right? And uh they have awesome slow-mo images of them dumping a cup of oil into uh an oil fire and showing what happens. This is by the way, why you don't ever have a deep fryer next to a stove, because you might spill oil into something, and then what happens is is that the water instantly vaporizes, and if oil is let's say you're when you're using a fryer, you should never leave it ever.
+
+[44:25] But you should never leave it unattended because you can see if it's starting to go over over hot on you. If it goes over hot, if in other words a thermostat breaks and it goes into runaway, thermal runaway, once the oil auto ignites, and then if something like water hits it after it's auto ignited, then you're misting it if the water hitting it will cause tiny oil droplets to be at you know sprayed into the atmosphere like a f like a like a like an aerosol. That aerosol will ignite into a fireball, right? Here's the other problem about fire extinguishing an oil fire. If you fire extinguish an oil fire on, if you have oil that just spills out of the fryer and hits a heating element and ignites, sure, then you can uh you can hit it with a with a type K fire extinguisher, and it's not gonna be a big problem.
+
+[45:09] If you have thermal runaway and your entire batch, 30 pounds of oil, is at auto ignition temperature, and you spray it, what you're doing is you're spraying oil with the with the with the extinguisher, you're spraying oil at its auto ignition temperature all over your kitchen, where it will then again ignite as soon as you release the uh fire extinguisher, unless you have enough fire extinguishing power to uh like kill it completely and cool it down, which is why they have ansel systems and in an Ansel system, the goop that they spray out of your ancil system uh especially saponifies the fat so that it doesn't uh reignite after it stops, and it puts a suppression blanket on top of your fryer for like twenty seconds please look up pyrochem kitchen night two fire test demonstration and for an extremely uh boring uh i they're boring but you go through them and Ansel R-102 suppression system versus dry chemical extinguisher on YouTube especially that second one Ansel R102 suppression system versus dry chem extinguisher and you can they it's really boring go to the interesting parts you can see a firefighter spraying a dry chemical extinguisher on uh on a on a thermal runaway auto ignition oil temperature fire from a fryer and the disastrous results contained also for a good laugh look up William Shatner turkey fry because William Shatner has a safe he's like I love fried turkey it's the taste it's my taste I love it I fried turkeys but then he has like the safety thing where they show like an entire like garage melting down from uh someone putting uh uh a poorly thawed and or too much oil in it. So check that stuff out. Um but anyway, yes from a cooking standpoint they're the best. Amazing fair? Fair.
+
+[46:43] Fair okay um caller you're on the air. Hey Dave it's Nathan from Richmond. Hey how you doing? Good man um I've been reading this book called uh Pulmonary Reactions by Simon Clownfield. Maybe you've read it before.
+
+[46:57] Uh I don't have do you have that Piper? No. Nope, go ahead. Okay. So he's talking about turkey and he wants to cook his turkey at a a relatively low temperature um 96 C for a long time in the oven.
+
+[47:12] Right. But initially he rinse the bird with hydrogen peroxide, and I've never heard of anyone doing this. Huh? I wondered. Why does he bleach the turkey?
+
+[47:23] Because he says he's gonna cook it at a low temp, so he wants to completely remove the chance of any like uh bacterial growth. Especially bauxulism, since uh hydrogen peroxide will break down into oxygen and help help keep botulism from growing. Alright, Piper, like all right. Like tweet me the tweet me the name of the book and the protocol. I'm gonna look that sucker up and we'll talk about it.
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+[47:48] We still have time before Thanksgiving next week, right? Cool, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'll look that up. Hydrogen peroxide on the bird.
+
+[47:55] You heard of that, Piper? Is it a is it a base? Hype peroxide? I'd say it's an oxidizer. It just kills things.
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+[48:01] It's a it doesn't work based on acidity, it works based on like literally like ripping things apart. Yeah. Have you ever poured hydrogen peroxide on your on a cut, Piper? They don't have that up in Vermont. Spit.
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+[48:14] Ah, nice, nice. Yeah, so we'll uh I'll I'll look that up and and uh and we'll we'll we'll try to see if we can figure out what's going on. I mean, I would prep I would prefer to use kind of a slightly nitrated salt and get that cured taste rather than use a uh hydro peroxide. But I don't know, I'll go buy some hydrogen peroxide, we'll dump it on at I don't know if I have time because we're working on the Kickstarter, but I'll I'll definitely at least research it. Piper will have me research it and we'll get back to you next week.
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+[48:36] Okay, awesome. Thanks, Dave. Alright, thank you. Um Toronto writes in Dear Cooking Issues team, uh, any uh recipes involving powder gelatin, consistently ask that first be hydrated, then heat it up. Two questions.
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+[48:47] As long as there's enough water, won't the gelatin hydrate as it heats up anyway? And two, to what temperature uh must one heat the mixture in order to melt the said gelatin? And thanks and keep up the good work, Alex in Toronto. Actually, they don't tell you to add uh to the cold water to hydrate it. They're they're putting you in to swell it so that it can disperse easily before you hydrate it.
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+[49:05] What they're worried about is that you add the gelatin powder to a hot liquid and it forms clumps that then take a lot longer to dissolve. The reason that doesn't happen in jello powder is because there's so much sugar separating the gelatin that uh it easily disperses in uh hot water, okay? Um but the blooming, as it's called, is not a hydration. Any hydrocolloid uh that you use, and gelatin, even though it's a protein is classified as a hydrocolloid, is usually a two-step process. Disperse, which is what you're doing with the blooming process, getting them swollen but yet not glued together, uh, and then hydration by heating.
+
+[49:40] And uh gelatin hydrates what, like what 140, something like that? Fahrenheit? Somewhere like that? It's pretty low. Something like that.
+
+[49:46] I just do it by eye. I've never actually measured it, and probably depends on the gelatin. I just do it by eye. Yeah. Anyway, there that's your answer.
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+[49:52] Uh Patrick uh Patrick writes in on ham. Dear cooking issues, gang. I'm thinking of trying to cure ham in a location upstate New York whose low and sometimes high temperatures dip below the freezing point for one quarter to one third of the year. This excludes a completely ambient curing and aging process, but I'm thinking of providing just enough heat to keep the temperature above freezing to do a semi ambient ham and then let it age for a long time, at least over two summers, where the temperatures are still still relatively mild. I don't have a desire to produce a facsimile of another place's ham, but instead want to do something that stands on its own.
+
+[50:20] Do you think in general this is an okay idea? Or is it that simply not a good idea to do a semi ambient ham, most likely unsmoked, outside of the traditional ham belt climate zone you described before? Completely ambient seems out of the question. Also, are there any detailed references in English you would suggest for ham cure uh curing? I have a copy of Fidel Tolders' dry cured meat on the way, and Paul Bertoli's cooking by hand has a really good description of his own prosciutto method.
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+[50:41] Not looking to replicate other processes, but make a country ham that tastes like its own unique climate and geography. All the best, Patrick. Okay, listen, look this up. Uh dry curing Virginia style ham, Virginia Cooperative Extension by Norman Marriott. It's about Virginia ham, but it talks about the general procedure, how to pick out a ham properly for curing, uh although, you know, I don't necessarily agree with all of his trimming procedures, but it goes into salt levels and things like this.
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+[50:59] And he actually is an advocate of the bag style cure. And it's probably good for curing small amounts of ham rather than the box cure where you're layering lots of hams on top of each other. The bag cure, you add the specific amount of salt you need to the particular ham, wrap it, and then you know you overhaul it a couple of times, but it's you know uh easier to get to get right. I think that you have a good idea. I don't think it's gonna be a problem uh as long as you keep it from freezing if you have it in a semi-controlled place.
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+[51:30] And you've got to remember a lot of the smoked hams uh that you know we have you know over time come from more northerly places where freezing is a possibility, and so things were hung near fires to keep them from uh freezing, among other things. Uh and so I think that should that should work great. And I'm looking, you know, I'd I'd love to try an upstate New York style ham semi-ambient semi-ambient ham. Yeah, but remember, your your aging temperatures, like the reason that the country hams, my feeling is taste the way they do, southern country hams is the very high humidity, uh high uh temperatures that they experience in the summertime. Uh and most of your aging, uh most of the kind of funkiness from aging is going to happen during uh the uh summertims.
+
+[52:10] Okay, uh last week we had in uh a caller asking about sodium ferrocyanide in salt. Uh and uh Elliot Papanell wrote in with the uh with the uh actual sheet from Morton saying that there can indeed be there. But it's not gonna hurt you. First of all, sodium ferrocyanide, it's not 2%. It's uh 20 milligrams per kilo of salt is the maximum allowable amount in uh in the European standards anyway, which is like oh, I have to do the math, but it's like 0.0002% uh of of uh sodium uh ferrocyanide.
+
+[52:46] And sodium uh ferrocyanide, ferrocyanide is a si is a bunch of cyanides glued around a an iron uh atom, and the iron bonds so well with the cyanide that it takes an acid stronger than stomach acid to release hydrogen cyanide gas. And so sodium ferrocyanide is relatively non-uh toxic. You need to consume a whole bunch of it for uh for it to hurt you, and there is not, and it's you know, and there's not that much of it in there anyway, but indeed it is there. So it's remember it's not two percent, it's 20 milligrams per kilo, which is very very, very low. Um Chris uh Chris Kohler uh writes in uh well is pronounced it's written like collar, like holler, like Chris Kala, but it's co but it's Kohler.
+
+[53:27] Anyway, uh two questions pertaining to bread and proofing dough. I've been making Levan style bread for about six months now and continually amazed with how long it lasts. Uh last being quantified in days without drying out, molding, or showing significant drops in quality. My first assumption was uh that this bread is 77% hydrated and that uh that's playing a role in lasting longer. I recently did a uh side-by-side of 77% Levain bread and 77 per hydrated no-need bread with commercial yeast and a traditional kneaded bread at 77% hydration with commercial yeast.
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+[53:55] All three breads were made in a standard country style loaf. The bread made with the Levan was a clear winner and lasted a week with a slow decline in quality. The kneaded bread lasted for four days, and then no-knead bread was shot after two. Any thoughts on what's going on? And uh as a follow-up, I recently got a wood-fired oven and I'm trying to convert a mini fridge into a proofing chamber so I can hold pizza dough at 65 Fahrenheit for extended uh periods of time.
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+[54:16] I can't imagine this being too difficult, but the scope of my scientific knowledge is i in the world of medicine, not engineering. Thusly, I'm often intimidated by the smallest electrical projects. Thanks for the help, Chris uh Kohler. Uh, so uh as far as uh the first thing, yes, a sourdough technique, especially on whole grain breads like Levan's, it uh is has a um a radical uh effect in a positive way on the staling properties of um of doughs. I point you to this article in uh food microbiology from 2007 called The Impact of Sourdough on the texture of bread.
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+[54:51] And uh there's a couple things going on. Uh the acidity from a sourdough starting is uh causing directly causing some of the anti-staling uh things by uh how it uh affects the way enzymes are breaking down starches during the fermentation process, and also probably due to their effect on the gluten in general, which they say can affect staling, although I'm not exactly sure how, I'd have to go reread the whole article. The other thing is is that the lactic acid bacteria uh that are growing in a sourdough starter make their own extracellular cellular polysaccharides, which can lead towards uh can lead towards anti-staling effects and also break down other things like proteins and other things that are more present in uh whole grain breads. And so a sourdough plus a whole grain bread is probably vastly superior from a staling technology, but uh just go read the impact of sourdough on the texture of bread. Um I went to go look for uh my copy of the bread builders, which I think also, even though it might be out of date, is a very good book on that style of bread, but it's already been packed because I'm moving very soon.
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+[55:49] Um anyway, I hope that helps. Uh John writes in, and I guess this will have to be our last one, right? Because we're getting we're getting kicked off the air in a second. Uh John writes in, uh Hey Dave, Nastasha and the crew. I had a question about ginkgo, specifically the evil female tree.
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+[56:04] For a while, my wife and I have had a ginkgo on our block and did collect the seeds for a brief moment to dry out the seeds for a Chinese dish we wanted to try, but unfortunately, soon after the process of separating the softer flesh of the seed from the inner seed, we found during the process that the fruits contain uh you're I can't pronounce it, I can't pronounce anything, ureusurol, the stuff from from uh well from from uh poison ivy. Uh urecial. I can't pronounce it. Anyway, uh contains that uh which made for very unpleasant few days following. That tree is long gone, but I do see a lot of the trees dropping their stink seeds around New York City uh now, and was wondering if I was brave or crazy enough to brave the stench and collect them again.
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+[56:42] Is there a way to neutralize uh the uh the you know the dermatologically uh impaired product, which I will not try to pronounce again, before trying to get the seeds to avoid getting poison oak side effects again. While the fresh seeds were good, I am not sure the risk or effort involved is better than the ones you pick up in a Chinatown, aside from knowing their origin and processing uh and processing them yourself compared to the industrial variety. Thanks. Hope all is well, John. Okay, look.
+
+[57:04] So, in fact, uh look, uh urichurol, however you pronounce it, is actually that technical thing is only from that family, the Anacardius anacardacy, which is like mangoes and poison ivy and and and whatever. I looked this up and I didn't know that this is in ginkgo, and again, my my book on uh poison ivy problems, which I have a couple actually, but they're already because I'm fascinated with trees and put stuff now, uh, have been uh packed away already for the moose, so I couldn't go look look that up. But it turns out that ginkgo uh has a related uh compound in it um that can cause dermatitis, but doesn't necessarily cause it for everyone. So, in other words, some people who were because I'm highly allergic to poison ivy, but I've smashed ginkgo seeds this year, in fact, and haven't gotten any any problems. Here's the other problem.
+
+[57:50] Something you mentioned. First of all, ginkgos are unrelated to any other living extant tree. They are they're they are kind of they're alone in their group. They're usually classified with the conifers, but they're kind of like a living fossil. And they're only really wild in China, but they were brought over and extensively cultivated in other places, including here in New York City.
+
+[58:10] Trees are either male or female, unlike many trees which have male and female parts on the same tree. And the female trees produce stinky, stinky, stinky, stinky ginkgo nuts, which is why most people who cultivate them only cultivate the males. But you can here in New York City, I can verify this from my own personal experience. Fine, in fact, there's one right outside of MoFat Offices. There's a female tree that was dropping its nuts.
+
+[58:32] These nuts. And and uh you pick it up, and it's not really a seed anywho. But you break it and it you smell homeless. Uh and you can't wash the homeless smell after because of the intense concentration of butyric acid on it. Now, I did not know that it also contained an irritant, but in fact it it does.
+
+[58:50] Uh and so uh I will uh did I write it down? I there's a I will try to look more into whether or not there's any way to actually stop yourself other than gloves. Uh I mean gloves, right? Gloves. But I I don't think of any I haven't found anything that specifically inactivates it.
+
+[59:06] I was reading an article on the uh preventing of occupationally related contact dermatitis, but and that came up when I searched for ginkgo, but I wasn't able to find the specific ginkgo reference that kind of had to work around it. But man, if you can brave that stench, first of all, the fact that you put that stuff on your hands with the smell because it's so hard to wash out of your hands. I was sitting there washing for like so long to get the stink out. Uh there are things called barrier creams that uh are given to forest rangers and people who trek out that are supposed to stop uh poison ivy from penetrating the skin, and maybe that would work here. But man, I mean, I would collect and then you know, maybe they use some sort of fermentation to get the pulp off instead of pulping it by hand.
+
+[59:46] I will look it up. I will look it up uh and tell you, John, because it's I'm kind of curious about it. Oh, it's too late in the season for us to collect ginkgo. Can you imagine if I brought all those ginkgo nuts back to the lab and was stinking up that lab with butyric acid, like smelling like vomity vomit, vomit, vomity vomit. I can't imagine what that would be like.
+
+[1:00:03] I think it's I think there's other stinky stuff in there because it smells worse than just vomit. It's like vomit plus not wash. It's like unwashed vomit. It's like it's like it's like you didn't wash for a week, you spent your first 20 bucks on the cheapest liquor you could get, drank it and then puked it on yourself, and then just fell asleep dozing in the hot sun. That's what it smells like to me.
+
+[1:00:21] Anyway, uh we'll look it up and we'll get back to you cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:00:54] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:32] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Reverse Pizzeria in Bushwig Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly twelve to twelve forty five. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasha The Hammer. Lopez, how you doing? Good. That pizza's called the Slammer.
+
+[0:46] Really? Mm-hmm. The hammer and the slammer? Yeah. So what's what's on this pizza from Roberto?
+
+[0:50] By the way, we uh today we have to go shoot at uh food and wine. Maybe we'll talk about it later. And so we have to take our lunch during our commercial breaks today. Boohoo. So what's on this pizza, the slammer?
+
+[1:02] It's collard greens and prosciutto, I think. Yeah? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[1:07] Uh Joe, what do we got on this pizza here? I don't think you know. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not a restaurant, I'm not actually working in the restaurant, I just bring the pizza. Yeah, but I know.
+
+[1:17] I don't know. It's my fault. I should have read it more closely. All I saw was greens on top. See uh Roberta's they have these pizzas with greens on them, and Stas and I love the pizzas with greens on 'em, and then whenever we want one, they're like, nah, not today.
+
+[1:28] Yeah. No greens today. I love greens on pizza, by the way. I like 'em when they're when they're uh cooked down as these appear to be. And I like them when they're not cooked down.
+
+[1:36] Yeah, I like 'em. I like them both ways. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a good product.
+
+[1:39] Greens on a pizza. Uh didn't mean to put you on the spot there, uh, Joe, how are you doing? I'm doing great, thanks. A little red in the face now. But uh as you said, you don't work at the restaurant, it's not your job to know.
+
+[1:51] I just thought maybe you would had it and you would know you know, you know, taking note of it. I'm gonna start up my own pizza blog for all the cooking issues listeners about all the Roberto's pizzas, maybe someday. Oh, I just stuck the headphone cord and the pizza is such a party foul. Uh so while we're on the topic here, Nastasha You said to bring it up. Okay, all right, we can do it.
+
+[2:11] Yeah, so uh Nastash Nastasha and I have a uh uh an ongoing kind of feud battle. Accurate? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I One of many.
+
+[2:20] Well well, one of many, but one we're willing to share. And so uh, you know, uh some of you may know, I have uh two kids and a wife, right? And uh so you know, I've kind of been through this whole scenario in New York, by the way. And not so easy being uh a mom in New York if you want to like go outside. You know, it's you can't like lock yourself away in your uh in your tiny apartment all day, you go freaking bananas.
+
+[2:45] And so I am not in the least bothered by uh any sort of public display of feeding your babies if you get my drift. Breastfeeding. Yes, breastfeeding the babies. And Stas here uh is uh is bothered by it. You want to talk about that?
+
+[2:59] Well, it's just that Roberta's especially is uh a breeding ground for these women who take their entire breast out and don't cover it up. But just don't look at it. I don't know. Just don't look why. It's so easy just not to look at people.
+
+[3:12] Like, why don't you just cover it with like a nice thing? They make stuff like that. You could get a nice scarf to put over like you know, like why do you need to show it? I just don't think that there's not that it's not about you. You see, you see you're you're looking at it like it's about you.
+
+[3:26] No. If you're eating in a restaurant and a woman has her breast out, it's it's always at Roberta's. It's you have pizza in front of you, you have cheeses, you have, you know. What the heck does the pizza and the cheese have to do with it? Oh my goodness.
+
+[3:40] And then there's the lady next to you with her breast out. Uh Joe, you want to weigh in on this? Yeah, Joe, what do you think? Um I see it from I see it from both ways. I my thought is that Yeah, you can just avert your eyes, but as soon as you started going about the cheese, I don't know.
+
+[3:58] That was a little much for me. Well, that's just because she's got a demented mind. Like she makes connections that don't exist. I want I want writers or callers or listeners or whatever to weigh in on it. Hey, you know what I want?
+
+[4:09] I want uh I want mothers to be able to go out and eat whenever they should do it when you know obviously they have to do it when their baby's hungry, but cut like cover it up in a public place. That is painful. If you do not feed when I under I'm not telling them not to, I'm saying cover it up. Cover it up. All right, whatever.
+
+[4:26] I you know, I just I just don't I don't see why it's would you like to let's say that a man had to do it with a different appendage. That is crazy. That is crazy. That is a crazy, crazy, crazy statement. I cannot believe I cannot believe that you have said this on the air.
+
+[4:43] Now I want you people out there. This is a little taste of what it's like. A little bit of a taste. Somebody had to say it. No, no, no.
+
+[4:51] Nobody had to say that. Nobody had to say that. Call in, call in your responses to Nastasha or any other questions, cooking or otherwise. Two 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[5:03] Longtime listener and supporter of MoFad, by the way. Uh Lucas wrote in uh and uh says that um a long time listener of the show. You know, he was a uh he's now a finance guy, but he used to be involved in super low temperature physics. Cool. Which is kind of interesting.
+
+[5:18] I think he was saying he was uh dealing with uh what do they called? Like um Einstein Einstein kind of what is it uh kind of condensate? Super, super hyper low temperature uh physics. Anyways, so uh he has a deal for us. He says he shot a doe yesterday, you know, the dough a deer female deer.
+
+[5:35] Uh he shot a doe yesterday. He was hunting with a friend. He has half the meat, and we'll be happy to donate some of this in the name of the progress of science in terms of us cooking uh uh game meats low temperature. And I hope it's you know, some point I hope to go hunting too. But yes, please, uh please send us some.
+
+[5:50] He says, unfortunately, the conditions of the deal uh with his friend were that all the awful from the first deer goes to his dogs, which is so weird. Your dog doesn't give a crap. Oh, my dog really only likes the deer that I hunt. My dog will eat any damn thing. You know what he likes the best now?
+
+[6:05] Dehydrate what jackets. Oh shit. Again, again with the nudging. Uh dehydrated uh lamb lung is seems his current favorite thing. You can't go can't get enough dehydrated and bread.
+
+[6:15] Anyway, uh unfortunately the conditions of uh of the deal are that all the awful from the first deer goes to his dogs, but I have all the other cuts. Now, because I'm stupid, I butchered this myself, and since this is my first deer, it looks uh a little better than the first sushi I made, uh, but you know, it's kind of beat up. But certainly edible. Let me know if uh you guys are interested. Regards, Lucas.
+
+[6:33] Yes, we are interested. Wouldn't you like that? Yeah. You like you like deer, right? I don't think I've ever had it.
+
+[6:38] Come on, really? We'll cook the hell out of that, Lucas. Santa was scary. Well, is it frozen? Yeah, like we're pretty much like in a Khole right now.
+
+[6:47] Like uh at home, you know. Well, we'll get into this later, but like, you know, I haven't been able to test any recipes. Um, you know, uh Chris Kohler sent us the uh the tofu book by uh by Nguyen. Thanks so much. We're uh super excited.
+
+[7:02] I was reading through it, and then I realized, hey, you know what? I want to make tofu right now, but guess what? I have no kitchen. I literally moving. I'm moving.
+
+[7:10] Yeah, yeah, I mean, not permanently, but like uh it's because my wife heard my rant about fryers last week. No, I'm kidding. She doesn't listen to the show. Uh but the uh more on that later. But the no, what happened was uh we're moving across the street, and the people who are buying my new apartment, they don't want my you know, commercial fryer, my commercial hood and my commercial range and all that stuff, so I had to rip it out of the wall.
+
+[7:32] The people I don't want to call out who it is, you know. Yeah, they're they are relatives of mine. That's not the point. They don't want the they don't want it. And so uh so I had to rip it out with my bare hands.
+
+[7:42] So now I'm I'm back down to dorm room skills. I got a uh a toaster oven, but I also have a search all. Oh, yeah. So can I see her only something? Can I can I see her most things?
+
+[7:56] What can I see her? Everything. No, stuff stuff. You gotta gotta get into the I know it's gotta get into the Christmas spirit. She's already in the freaking Christmas spirit.
+
+[8:04] It's not even Thanksgiving experience. And she's cracking out the Michael Booblay, like it's like the end of the world is coming with the booblies. Now, yeah, okay, whatever. I encourage it, because whatever. But like I'm saying, like, you know, like we're doing something exciting and you came out like whatever.
+
+[8:19] Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. Again, of course. Now people, now you know.
+
+[8:23] Now you know. A lot of stuff. Now you know. Uh okay. Uh John Stewart wrote in uh two cooking issues uh about a serious eats uh and I couldn't figure out when the serious eats uh post was, but it was uh it was a Kenji Alt uh post.
+
+[8:39] Uh and he says um question one. This is a what it is, is it's I forget what they called it. They called it something. What'd they call it? Like a Turk knuck nuk nut what'd they call it?
+
+[8:48] Like a turk? Yeah. Turk cheddar or something like that. Yeah. It's a it's a rolled turkey, but it's basically a rolled turkey.
+
+[8:54] Turkey breast, rolled with the skin. Uh I can't, I I didn't see the original recipe to see whether he had meat glued it or not. But you know, I've I've been cooking rolled up poultry for since, you know. Actually, you know what? Like, even before I had meat glue, Jacques Papin back in the day used to do uh ballotines of uh chicken that were stuffed with kind of like a uh a dried fruit stuffing.
+
+[9:16] And I used to make those things constantly, like in my twenties. Like that was my go-to. I used to love making that. This is slightly different. I think this meat glued.
+
+[9:25] But Nils, you know, Nils Norrin, for formerly the FCI, good, you know, good friend of mine. Uh he back when he was at Aquavete would turn any meat into a tube. Any, any meat. You hand him a meat, he'd turn it into a tube. He would take, you know, lobsters, turn them into tubes, salmon, tubes, chicken, tube, turduckin, tube, beef, tube.
+
+[9:46] And so, like, and the reason is that Nils liked the tube so much is that it cooks very evenly across it. And so, you know, Nils had a very good uh meat gluing and rolling technique, and it was actually his formation of tubes that caused him to be kind of like oh like like one of the top two. They went back and forth, Wiley and Nils on who was using the most meat glue in New York City way back in the day. Anywho, so you know, after I started cooking with Nils a lot, I too, I too took up the the the tubes of meat uh as a as a thing, and so we used to turn, you know, just tubes constantly. Anywho, so uh that's what we're talking about.
+
+[10:22] So Kenji does a spiced on the inside, rolled up turkey breast with the skin around it that you low temp cook and then deep fry, which is kind of the classical low temp classic bulb. It's it's the low temp way to cook uh a bird like that in the in a simple fashion as opposed to the skeletonized turkey nonsense that we do every once in a while. I don't I can't I I can't do that this year. I don't have a kitchen. Crazy.
+
+[10:45] Sucks. We can't do that at the lab. We're not really set up for that at the lab. No. No.
+
+[10:44] So I was like, please don't do it at the lab. The last time I think I told I told this story of it. The last time I I did a major poultry project at the lab. Actually, we did one yesterday. Yeah.
+
+[10:57] But the time before that, I blew up a pressure cooker and sprayed uh not the way you think. No, no, no. I well, I exploded the safety valve, and it's it's it it was old faithful of chicken grease everywhere. I can picture that as I can smell it and picture it right now. Anyway, uh so the questions.
+
+[11:14] The recipe calls, this is Kenji's recipe, calls for 60 degrees Celsius uh for four to five hours and then deep fry. For most tender cuts like chicken breasts and tenderloins, I think you, you mean me, recommend keeping the time shorter to prevent mushing. It's thoughts on this, and what would you use for the time temperature on a turkey breast? I'll just go through all the questions first and I'll answer them uh, you know, in whatever order my tangents allow me to. Uh question two the recipe calls for slashing the inside of the meat, rubbing with spices, then rolling it and binding it with twine.
+
+[11:42] Would this be a good application for meat glue transglutaminase to bind it together better? If so, how would you otherwise change the technique? Still rub it, still rub in the spices, then dust with T G and roll, or would the spices interfere and or just be weird embedded in the meat? And question three if using transglutaminase, which one would you use? I see R M, G S T I and Y G, oh my.
+
+[12:02] I like that. It's a good rhyme there. Uh available uh from John Stewart. Okay. So uh, or is he didn't he call himself the other John Stewart once?
+
+[12:10] The other John Stewart. Well, you know, since I don't know, again, like I say, since I don't know the the John Stewart that you're referencing is that well, whatever, whatever. You're our John Stewart, John. Anyway, uh, yeah, I would use uh meat glue on this. I mean, obviously you don't have to use meat glue.
+
+[12:22] Um, but then if you don't use meat glue, you don't have to tie it, right? I mean, there you go. Uh, and then you can just roll it in uh make sure you get a you know a uh you know a polyethylene only plastic wrap if you're gonna use uh if you're gonna make the uh rolls with plastic wrap. And they're still on the cooking issues blog in the low temperature section, there's a whole whole pictorial blah blah who's it on how to roll uh I think I do a chicken there and also a salmon, show how to roll it. Um make sure that you use a non-PVC one uh and smell the poly smell your plastic wrap to make sure it doesn't smell all stanky and nasty.
+
+[12:57] But the technique is all there and it's you know fairly simple to do. Uh I would put the uh meat glue, I don't think it really matters as long as you're not coating it with so much spices that the meat can't touch meat, I don't think it's gonna really matter. Uh you can use RM. Uh RM is what I usually use, it's a powder and you sprinkle it on uh because I don't know, Nils would always say he hated the ones that were made into paste because he didn't want to add a lot of water to the inside. But if you have a lot of spices, uh you can use the uh GS, which is a slurry and you paint it on, and you could paint it on, but don't paint too much.
+
+[13:29] I mean that's the problem. You don't want to add a lot of moisture in there, and then sprinkle the spices into the uh into the slurry and then roll it up and you'll be you'll be good to go. Uh and with something like this, you could actually uh you wouldn't even actually actually have to wait for it to set. Normally you would wait for something to set, but as long as you're not cooking too high, four hours or so or overnight, as long as you're uh cooking down here in the 60 degrees Celsius range, you could very easily uh just heat set it, put it in the bath, and as it cooks through, it will set. It won't be as strong as it would be if you let it set in the fridge overnight, but it'll be strong enough for the application that you have here, and then you won't have any twine marks around it, right?
+
+[14:04] So that takes care of questions two and three, right? Now, as to question one. Alright, look. I'm sure Kenji has access to all the same programs and databases that you know that I have. And so his four to five cooking uh four to five hour cooking time at 60 degrees is probably based on what looked to be uh roughly four-inch uh diameter cylinder, right?
+
+[14:28] Uh and so the the issue is is that he is trying to get up to the actual temperature 60 in the center uh of a four-inch diameter tube, and that does take uh four to five hours. However, right, if you look at his recipe, so I'll say I'll give you the recipe here for those of you that are interested. You can just look it up. I mean, you know, serious heats, it's right there. But uh preheat sous-vide water bath to 140 Fahrenheit, that's 60 for you folks who cook in Celsius land.
+
+[14:55] Uh add a turkey and cook for four to five hours. Remove and run under a cool uh running water or transfer to an ice bath to chill for five minutes. That's again old standard technique we used to do to not overcook the the meats. Uh remove from a bag and and add any congealed juices to the gravy, rinse carefully and thoroughly pat dry with paper towels, trim ends for a more cylindrical shape if desired, although I would trim after you fry, after you fry, unless there's a lot of skin on the outside. Heat oil to 400 degrees.
+
+[15:19] Uh it's hot in a large walk or Dutch oven. Do not fill more than one third of the way in order to allow for bubbling and displacement. He's overheating the oil here because he's gonna get a large temperature drop as he puts it in. Um carefully slide the turkey into the oil using spatula and tongs. It will not be fully submerged.
+
+[15:33] Cover and cook, uh shaking the pan occasionally until the sputtering dies a bit. I would just ladle over the top or roll it in the thing instead of having to like uh I mean, I don't know, whatever. But that this is just these are just semantics, you know, choice of cook. Anyway, uh about two minutes, adjust the flame to a consistent 350, and then using a large metal ladle, spoon the hot oil. There you go, over the exposed portions of the roast continuously until the bottom half is cooked and crisp, about five minutes.
+
+[15:56] Carefully flip and cook on the second side, basting the whole time. So I guess he's covering it to get the temperature of the oil up faster by not having as much steam escape. That must be what he's doing here. But you're looking at a total cook time of seven minutes at 350 degrees. And that is going to push the internal temperature of that.
+
+[16:13] It's going to make a nice crispy skin, but it's going to push the interior temperature of the bird uh up considerably, which is why he's only cooking to 140 degrees. Now, 140 degrees is too dangerous, it's cooked properly, but 140 degrees, 60 degrees Celsius is too dang low for 99% of the people who are going to eat turkey breast. It's still going to have some of that weird translucent y kind of hue to it. And you wouldn't want to eat that, would you, Steph? No.
+
+[16:40] No. Like the minimum you want to cook a turkey breast to in the real world in real life is about 63 degrees. Or even some people prefer 64. Dark meats, you're looking at like 65 is the lowest, really, 66. Some people prefer.
+
+[16:56] If you do low temperature cooking and you're careful and you've brined it, you can cook the white meat up that high, but you know, whatever. These are the general numbers of what you want to cook turkey to. Now, in my opinion, uh turkey meat that is cooked for longer than about two hours low temperature. Uh, it's not that it goes bad, it's that it gets what I think it the texture is not as good if if you taste it side by side with meat that was cooked to the same temperature at a shorter period of time. When you bite into it, it has a little bit of stringiness, mushiness, it releases its water in in a way that uh uh I don't find as pleasant as I find ones that haven't been cooked for as long.
+
+[17:33] Now, some people like that texture, because we've done a bunch of side-by-side uh taste tests back when I was, you know, teaching low temperature cooking back at the FCI. But it's just not it's just not uh what what I like. What I would do, and and if you were to get one of these things like Sous Vash or uh you know Polyscien's Sous V dashboard, whatever it's called now, one of these programs that allows you to check it, if you were to just increase the temperature of the cooking water by a mere three degrees, you would chop the time down to uh around under three hours. If you were to then reduce the cylinder size from four inches to three inches, you'd chop it down to like two and two and a fraction uh hours to get it cooked up to this temperature in the center, right? And that it seems to me is uh a good way to do it.
+
+[18:17] What I would do is do that and then ramp down the cooking temperature aggressively or put it in ice water a little bit longer so that you're not going to get an overcook when you put it in into the fryer. It's gonna be easier to drop that temperature a couple of degrees uh than it is to raise it without overcooking. Does that make sense to us? Because anyway, so that's what I would do. I would cook it to a higher temperature and then drop it harder and then and then fry it without overcooking it.
+
+[18:42] And I think that's gonna be uh better. It's especially you want to make it for a quick crust development. So I wouldn't actually cool it in the bag or in the um I mean I wouldn't cool it in ice water in the bag. What I would do is cool it down to I would drop the temperature aggressively to like 50 or 52, pull it out hot and let the steam flash off of the uh the the moisture flash off of the uh the bird, maybe even hit it with a with a fan or a hairdryer to put a pellicle on the outside. Do not use a used hairdryer on uh on food, by the way, because you'll notice that it throws little pieces of burnt hair.
+
+[19:16] What happens when people are blow drying their hair is uh hair particles get sucked into the intake, and then uh some of them make it in and then they get kind of slightly incinerated, and then when you when you fire it again, occasionally it will fire out these little bits of half-burnt hair particle crap. That's how women get split in. What? Over blow drying the hair. I hate blow dryers.
+
+[19:36] Uh, in terms of I like I like they should just call them like you know, kind of food food dryers. They're awesome at that, like French fries and everything. But like people try to put a blow dryer on my head, I'm like, what the hell are you doing? My hair will dry. My hair will dry.
+
+[19:48] Like, I'm not gonna get a cold going outside. Uh like, do not blow dry my hair. Yep. Do you use blow dryer? Nope.
+
+[19:54] That's one of the reasons I like you stuff. No offense to all you blow dry people out there. They smell bad. They smell like burnt hair. Yeah, I guess for that reason.
+
+[20:01] Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you're with me, right? Blow dryer, no good, right? No way. No, good on food though. They're good for that.
+
+[20:07] That's good to know. But don't use a used one. Anyway, so uh that's what I I had something else to add to this, but I forget what it is. Uh, who knows? Uh I'll think of it.
+
+[20:16] I'll think of it somewhere. You want to go to a break? Yeah. Alright, we'll go to a commercial break, come right back with cooking issues. This is Chris Howell from Kane Vineyard and Winery.
+
+[20:57] Calling in from Spring Mountain above the Napa Valley. Thank you for listening to this show. In our industrial world of highly processed food and wine, we support the values of Heritage Radio Network. All of us at Cain encourage you to seek out individuality and beauty in everything you eat and drink. To learn more about us, go to Kanefine.com.
+
+[21:46] And we're back. Calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497 2128. You want to you know I'm uh one of the reasons why I'm a bad person? Why?
+
+[21:56] Everyone else loves it. I hate Napa. I hate it. Napa Napa Valley. Oh, so do I.
+
+[22:01] Yeah. Yeah. I hate it. I mean, look, I like the people. I like the wineries.
+
+[22:05] I like wine. But just that beating freaking sun. You know what I mean? Yeah. What do you hate about it?
+
+[22:14] I don't like it. Stas went to school at Stanford, so you know, so she's probably exposed to it more than I am. Yeah, I don't like their they're really like clean, clean vineyards, you know, like very lines. I don't know how to explain it. Yeah.
+
+[22:27] I like the wine though. I like the wine. I don't know. It's also like so expensive over there, right? What the hell are we talking?
+
+[22:33] We live in New York. Please. Anyway, now I'm gonna get someone to be like, if you hate Napa, I hate you. What are you gonna do? I gotta be honest sometimes.
+
+[22:41] You know what I'm saying? Gotta be honest sometimes. At Clef's wrote in uh on uh the Twitter said, uh cooking issues, any advice or techniques for roasting raw peanuts uh to then be milled into peanut butter uh and uh with temperatures and stuff. Well, okay. So the thing about peanuts, the thing about peanuts.
+
+[22:59] This is another one of this one of those uh D nuts questions. I love like anytime like I wish every week we would have some sort of like nut-related uh question, right? Yeah, nuts. Okay. Uh with and you know what?
+
+[23:15] Like, that's probably the best one of the best songs. That's not like there's some make good songs on that album, but Stas, you're not a big fan of that whole genre. No. Even though you're from that area. Yeah.
+
+[23:23] Is that why you don't like it? No, I just don't like it. Just don't like it. Not my kind of music. None of none of those, none of them?
+
+[23:29] No Dre, no Snoop, no, nothing. You're not but you're also not an East Coast rap person either. I don't like rap. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[23:36] Wow. I don't know how the heck we hang out. Okay. Uh so the issue with uh making peanut butter is you're gonna want a fairly high oil um nut. Right?
+
+[23:46] So that leaves out the absolute uh royalty of peanuts, God's peanut, which is the Virginia peanut, which is a variety. And I've said this before on the show. If you have not gone out and purchased high-quality roasted, salted, please get the salted. Please, for God's sakes, get the salted. Salted.
+
+[24:04] Don't get any flavors on it, though. These guys who make these Virginia peanuts, a lot of them they make all these ones with flavors because they think that you need to flavor it. But Virginia peanut, the texture of a Virginia peanut and the size and the way it explodes in your mouth when you bite it, does not require any sort of crazy flavoring. It requires simply salt and your mouth to eat and uh and a fist to shovel them into your face, because that's what you're gonna want to do with them. But Virginia peanut, uh, even though it is the best possible peanut that I've ever had.
+
+[24:32] Like by far, like so far and away above any other uh variety. It's a variety. They can be grown elsewhere other than uh Virginia, but they're just called Virginia Peanuts, and you know, that's where I get where I get most of them. I don't know where most of them are grown. But it just I mean, below blows the rest.
+
+[24:44] They cost more and they're worth it. You're gonna here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna go on the I hope you're gonna go on the internets. I feel like you've talked about it. I have, but like, but some people they don't know.
+
+[24:55] They don't know. Go on the internets, you're gonna look at it, and you're gonna say, why the hell does this peanut cost so much? And then you're gonna get it and you're gonna say, It's oh. That's gonna be it, right? That's what I did.
+
+[25:05] Oh, okay. So anyway, so don't get those for uh peanut butter because that's a waste anyway, of the amazing texture. And the Virginia uh peanut, I think doesn't have its kind of a high oil um content. Uh, if you're gonna want uh something higher, like a Spanish peanut or something like that in oil, uh, I would recommend roasting it. You if you're gonna make peanut butter, you can put the salt in later, so it's not uh not a problem.
+
+[25:25] Um but everyone seems to say to roast it at 350 Fahrenheit, which oh man, I should have converted that to Celsius because uh at Clefs is in uh Japan, I think. Anyway, um should uh for like 15 or 20 minutes. Um as opposed to in the shell, the you know, the peanut board and all that recommends going for 30 to 35 minutes at the same temperature 350. However, they don't tell you the real secret of roasting a peanut in shell. This doesn't apply at Cless for peanut butter.
+
+[25:52] Oh, and by the way, if you have a uh a peanut that doesn't have as much oil, it's a simple matter when you're grinding uh nut butters to add a little bit of oil to it. And we used to do it all the time when we were doing, for instance, we would get um uh California almonds, and no offense, because I've had some good ones. Wyeth, you know, uh from labor, his his uh grandpa's an almond farmer, and he got some really good good nuts, good nuts. But the thing is that majority of the California almonds that you get are some variety that has a very low oil content, because I guess they think that's what Americans want. Like as opposed to marconas where you can see the freaking like oil on them.
+
+[26:26] So delicious. But they so that those nuts that the uh, you know, the average nuts? Those and uh that's the uh the average California uh almond there uh is almost worthless to make uh butters out of because it has so l low oil unless you add back a lot. Even pecans, which are fairly high oil, we would have to add some oil. Remember that when we were making all that stuff, we'd have to add some back to it.
+
+[26:46] We would save a little bit of the last batch and make it kind of like a trying to get a perpetual motion nut machine out of it. And we used to pre-grind it and then put it in a santa to get a really which is you know a melee kind of take, oh you know, or idly idly, uh, you know, like a doll idly thing. Anyway, from uh from uh uh India. And uh we used to get really good, really, really good textured nut butters, and then we would spin them in the center fuse and get even better awesome textured uh nut butters. Uh we used to roast them all uh beforehand.
+
+[27:12] But anyway, so but none of that uh is gonna help you if you want to put salt uh uh like do you like eating peanuts in the shell? I don't like nuts so much. I don't like peanuts. Oh my freaking God. What about you guys in the engineering booth over there?
+
+[27:28] Are you a fan of the uh shell the in shell peanut? Oh definitely. Yeah, baseball style, you know, out there shelling it in the n the freaking nutshells are everywhere. I like anything where you're supposed to make a mess and there's chaff everywhere, right? Yeah.
+
+[27:41] Yeah. But you I don't like when people eat the peanuts on the subway like that, though. No, no, they should be shot in the face. Yeah, right. I I don't mean they could a lot of violent things.
+
+[27:48] I shouldn't say that. Uh that's a a turn of phrase I use, not on the air typically. But what I mean is is they're bad people. They're not b bad. They're just they're they're rude.
+
+[27:55] They're not thoughtful people. I take that back. What I said, that's not right. Anyway, but my point is is that you should not I don't like people eating any freaking thing on the subway at all. No.
+
+[28:05] I don't want to see people. I mean, look, if you need to take a sip of water, no problem. But I don't want like, I don't know, I don't want a baby that needs to breastfeed. You know what, Stas? You're such a freak.
+
+[28:16] See what I'm saying, people? Anyways, my point is I don't like I don't like to I don't like, you know what I really hate? I hate the I hate like the like the takeout food container open in the subway and the entire subway smells like this. So gross. Yeah, it's always like the high like vinegar sauces and stuff.
+
+[28:34] You can smell the fried goods, you can smell all over the thing or like subway sandwiches, I see that a lot. They're freaking messy. They're messy people. Anyways. Uh just don't do it.
+
+[28:45] Right, Joe? Just don't do it. No way. How do we even get it? Oh, wait.
+
+[28:48] Wait five minutes. Yeah, wait. But when you're when you're outside or sitting at a picnic bench outside, like like the the peanuts in the shell. Anyway, the worst though is when someone hands you one and they're not salted. Don't you hate that?
+
+[29:00] Hate that. Yeah. Want salt on those sucker flames. Yeah, definitely. So here's how you do it.
+
+[29:05] If you want to salt the nuts uh before you roast them, uh the simple kind of bone-headed way without technology is to just soak it in a salt brine for uh a long time and then you know rinse them off a little bit and roast them, right? That'll work. But oh sorry, dehydrate first uh below roasting temperature because if you don't get the moisture back out before you roast it, uh you're not gonna be able to get all the moisture out before it gets too brown, right? So you need to take them back down to a normal kind of ambient moisture content at a low non-roasting temperature. Either in a dehydrator or on a super low oven with the with the lid with the door open with a with a towel, you know how you do if you don't have a dehydrator, and let them really dry out before you roast it proper at like 350.
+
+[29:46] But the baller, really bitty biddly, biddly baller way to do it, is to throw the peanuts and a brine and whatever other flavors you want into your vacuum machine and do rapid infusion into the peanuts, and you can infuse them almost instantly. So you don't have to wait for the stuff to soak through like you would with a normal brine that we have to wait hours for the for the brine to make it through. So then you could do you can make your brine, uh suck a huge vacuum, uh let the air back in, boosh, the brine will be pushed into the peanut, dehydrate uh you know in a low oven until you break one open field, make sure it's dehydrated, and then roast it off and you're good. Uh oh, we have a caller. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[30:24] Mr. Dave Arnold. Howdy. Hey. Doing well.
+
+[30:30] How's uh how's it down in Miami land? Uh it's a balmy 81 degrees. Nice, nice. What's up? Uh just called the chat.
+
+[30:40] Nice. When can I get my hands on one of those Sears all, sir? Well, so we are still making them by hand in the basement uh of uh the lab at 54 Eldritch. So right now teeny teeny little elves with with glasses and tweezers are assembling them as we see. Uh I like to think of Piper as an elves with glasses and tweezers.
+
+[31:02] But yeah, so literally that's what we're that's what we're doing. So right now we're we right now we we only have a couple, we only have a couple that we're using for shooting because we're we're doing the we're finishing the Kickstarter shoot on Thursday, and it's gonna go up on uh on Black Friday. Black Friday. But uh Mr. Bullfrog, you are definitely on the list.
+
+[31:23] You are on the So what you're s what you're saying is I have to send Santa Claus a letter and proclaim my love for for all things that heat stuff up very hot. Yes, yes, yes, that's true. Uh and no, and also like the well, here's a a good question. So um, technically, in a food truck, you're allowed to have the the uh handheld propane tanks? Technically.
+
+[31:43] Is are you asking me or are you telling me 'cause I sure as hell don't know. I was asking. Yeah, I was asking. Uh uh you know, I don't know. But the um yeah, so we're what Sas what when are we looking at delivery on this thing?
+
+[31:54] April. We're gonna try to get April? Yeah. So we're the Kickstarter'll be over right around the Christmas time and then we're looking for hopefully and really that soon, huh? Wow, we're gonna be busy.
+
+[32:05] Uh but the ones that we make now, you know, the proto ones are literally they're all welded by hand in the basement and so they're uh a s what's the what's the the PC term now? Budget. Their budget. Um the not the materials, just the you know the workmanship. Uh and that but we're gonna get them actually made, you know, for real in um we don't know where.
+
+[32:25] We're we're we have a couple factories we're looking at, but uh we're gonna get them made for we use for so for what you're saying is for real for real they're being made in China in some basement by teeny little Chinese elves. Uh yeah could possibly be made uh in India by small Indian elves as well. It's not sure because both both China I mean India for many years was kind of the stainless it really issue is is that you know I we can get fairly competitive price on like the high the high tech stuff like the like the insulation and the and the um and the mesh that we use but um stainless fabrication is just com you're completely priced out of existence in uh in the US for this kind of a thing. And so we're you know that's the kind of stuff that traditionally you would get a lot and like a lot of the barware is made in India but over the past decade or so China has really uh kind of rocketed forward uh to challenge and I think they've superseded India in terms of their stainless manufacturing, at least in terms of what's imported into the US and the cookware department. So it's it's a question of which which one um you're gonna go to, but it's just phenomenally you know, the tooling costs and everything are phenomenally expensive, and since we don't know that we can make enough of them to afford the initial kill on the uh the initial uh cost on the tooling for a US operation on that, we just don't know if we can do it.
+
+[33:44] We're looking to hopefully assemble here though. It's just gonna go bonkers. I mean you're gonna put that thing up and it's just gonna exceed anything that I think you ever could have imagined, you know? Well, from your lips to God's ears, brother. From your lips to God's ears.
+
+[33:57] But don't worry, you if you want look, look, you know, you Jeremiah ol old friend of uh before like old friend of the the bl back in the blog days, uh, you know, at the French Culinary Institute. So, you know I I believe I I believe I scald with with you guys uh up in the lab at one point. You did, and also uh if you remember you were the one that made us test out whether or not agave syrup was indeed uh did indeed make a difference in uh margaritas. Uh yeah, I I secretly just wanted to drink margaritas that day. I was a little hungover and I was like, let me just throw this out there.
+
+[34:31] Well I'll be drinking margaritas. It's gonna just, you know, it's gonna turn this class up a notch. Yeah, it's true. Did I ever tell you that I found out that figured out the science behind uh why they're so different? Um I believe we were having cocktails uh during ICC and um you you did um you did lay that theory on and uh I'm gonna touch it out on my own.
+
+[34:52] I I'm I'm a big margarita fan. Yeah. Well the I'll do I'll do my own research and we'll we'll compare notes. Alright, well I'll tell I'll tell you what I think, just for the benefit of the folks out there. The uh agave is extremely high in fructose.
+
+[35:05] And uh fructose is interesting as opposed to sucrose in that its sweetness hits you right away and then leaves very quickly. Uh so um what if you use agave uh you're using something that's very high in fructose. So when you drink the margarita, you get a real uh hit of sweet right away, but it doesn't linger, whereas the lime lingers. So you're not left with a cloying sweetness, you're left with this kind of lingering lime flavor in the margarita. There's still some backbone of sucrose there from the uh quantro, but like the initial kapow hit of the uh of the sugar that you've added is in a fructose form, which uh seems what we thought seemed to work well in uh the margaritas back in the day.
+
+[35:46] That's my theory. Welcome to it. All right. All right, well, you're on the list. We'll we'll be telling you when you get it.
+
+[35:57] And um, after the show, just eat that for me. So I feel like I'm part of the crew. Uh we well, I'll tell you what, we're going to do a food and wine shoot, but next week I will I will you will be an official in absentia uh crew member here, and we will order a margarita pizza. I'll pound it for you. Thank you, sir.
+
+[36:12] All right, brother. Bye. Take care, guys. Thank you. All right, cool.
+
+[36:17] Talk to you soon. All right, now, what are we talking about? I don't know who the hell knows what I'm talking about. Alex wrote in uh last week about fryers, and I gave a long spiel about how uh you know they might void the the insurance in your house and that they they could have safety issues and go. And apparently, uh I mean I don't frankly I don't frighten myself.
+
+[36:38] You convinced yourself, yeah. I mean I'd already purchased my new deep fryer for my you know my house because but look, but like it's kind of like who I am. It's like, you know, like that's, you know, whatever. Anyway, so here's what he wrote back. Hello, Dave.
+
+[36:50] So last week you answered my email about fryers, and my wife skipped past your comment that a fryer is a good idea for cooking. Shouldn't skip that part, you know what I mean? Uh, and leaped on the burning down the house prospects. Valid point. Your wife has valid point.
+
+[36:59] Uh so a large deep fryer in the home no longer appears to be a viable option. As I've never seen a countertop deep fryer with recovery times useful for frying, it looks like I'm back to stockpots and Dutch ovens. While the thermal mass of cast iron is appealing, I've seen some sources online that iron will react with the oil, degrading the quality or imparting off flavors. Is there any truth to this? Yes.
+
+[37:20] Also, what is the chemistry uh beyond oxidation going on in the fry oil that makes it break down and turn? Alex, okay, look. Uh before I before I get into it, let me uh let me just say uh I looked around and there is I forget whether or not you said you lived in an apartment or you live in a house, right? Because what uh one of the things I've always maintained is that if you live in a house with an outdoor space, like that's where you should put your fryer, right? And there's a company uh from Homer, Louisiana.
+
+[37:52] These guys are crazy. They're crazy. They're called R and V, R and V, like R V, like recreational vehicle, but not recreational vehicle, like R and Ampersand V works uh in Homer, Louisiana. Their website is Cajun Fryer.com. So you already know it's gonna be good.
+
+[38:06] Their website, website like Cajun Fryer, how could that be bad? And uh these guys sell, it's intended for home, right? Which means it's not gonna avoid your your homeowner's warranty because it's intended for home. A real, honest to God, uh outdoor, so it's got a cover on it, uh propane fired tube uh uh deep fryer with a cold zone. It's freaking nuts.
+
+[38:31] It's awesome. It's not even that expensive compared to other commercial stuff, and it's meant for home. So you're good to go. You just have to fire it up, not inside. It's not meant to go inside.
+
+[38:41] These guys also have some insane uh grills. They also make a like crazy pressure smoker that looks like a giant autoclave and uses like berbelline percolated water. I don't think the pressure's that high. I I couldn't figure out from their documentation because they don't tell you how high the pressure is, uh how high it is. And I could have calculated if I knew exactly the height of the water that they're pushing through to generate the pressure, but I couldn't.
+
+[39:00] Hey, whatever, I couldn't do it. But those guys are genuine uh nut jobs making those fryers, and so I I would go to them. Another thing I should tell you is that um I also forget whether or not you said that you you're good with building things or not. Do you remember? I don't remember stuff.
+
+[39:16] I don't remember. Um what you can do is um what you can do is build your own fryer. And I I've done this. So what you here's some here's some basic basic math for you. My fryer, uh, or the one I just threw it out, but the fryer that I had and the fryer that I'm gonna get approximately 90,000 BTUs for about um five gallons of oil, about 35, 40 pounds of oil.
+
+[39:44] Uh and what that means is you're looking at around 18,000 uh BTUs per uh gallon, and that equals about 5.2 kilowatts. That is a freaking lot. Out of a, and you know, as you rightly say, home fryers, they don't have really the ability to heat that much because you're looking at roughly 1500 watts max, 1.5 kilowatts. If you have a 220 circuit, then you can uh you could probably boost that to about three kilowatts. Now you're getting close to the amount of power you need to heat a full gallon of oil.
+
+[40:16] So here's what you could do if you're handy. You could buy a temperature controller, buy two, right? You want uh you don't need PID, you don't want PID. You want what's called a bang bang controller. Something that turns the heater on and then turns the heater off when you're done.
+
+[40:29] Okay. Strap uh one of the uh strap a control uh bulb or a uh uh uh sorry thermocouple directly to a heating arm. Oh, go on uh McMaster.com and get the longest, you're gonna need 220 for this, not 110, 220. Get the longest uh bendable immersion heater that you can get uh at the highest uh power that your 220 circuit can deliver, right? Now you want to bend, you gotta get a pot, you want a pot that's tall, fairly tall uh for its uh for its size, right?
+
+[41:01] And then you're gonna put a uh a grate, a rack in it. You're gonna want to bend uh like special legs for the rack so that the rack sits fairly high in the pot, right? Below that's gonna be your cold zone, right? And then uh, you know, a couple inches, give yourself. Then you're gonna rest the tube heater, the longest one you can do, you bend it into uh something that fits into the pan.
+
+[41:22] The reason why you want it long is you want the longest surface, the biggest surface area possible. If you really have skills, you can put fins on it, but don't worry about it. Bend it up out. You have a thermocouple that measures the oil temperature, and then a safety one strapped onto it to shut the thing off. Um make sure it's bang bang.
+
+[41:39] As soon as the oil the temperature drops, you want it to go on full force. You don't want any PID action because it's gonna slow down your recovery rate. Then you can do things like measure before you start frying with it, how you've got to be careful. If you're if you're worried about electrocuting yourself, don't do this. I mean, this is not safe.
+
+[41:53] This is just something you can do at home. Anyways, uh I've done it before, and you can make a relatively decent uh deep fryer if you have with a cold zone, if you have uh if you're handy, if you're not worried about things, and well, of course you are though, because if your wife doesn't want you to have defryer, she probably also doesn't want you to be bending tubular immersion heaters and uh and hooking them up on your stuff. But whatever, it's a good project. What do you stash is style is shaking your head and saying that I'm a jerk? Okay, uh back on to uh the pots.
+
+[42:21] Um the in if you have dings in the enamel, you're gonna have some iron. Iron is reactive, it's not nearly as bad as copper, copper is like the ultimate enemy. I mean, if you think about it, what happens uh old commercial deep fryers were uh regular steel and not stainless, and you would get a layer of polymerized oil on the steel that would just never go away, and then that would um that would kind of protect it from further degradation. But in general, you're gonna want to go stainless. Enamel should work fine.
+
+[42:48] Uh you don't really care about how much heat it's gonna build up because you're using the thermal mass of the oil, you're not really storing so much energy in the cast iron. So I wouldn't worry about that um too much. So I would also recommend going online, it's a little bit outdated, and getting a PDF copy of the Egan Press, which is put out by the American Association of Serial Chemists uh fats and oils books. It's extremely readable, and they have a whole section on uh deep frying. So uh you know basically from them, what's going on is uh hydrolysis in the fat oil, so water is coming out of the fat oil, and the water, especially at those high temperatures, is uh is causing breakdown of the fat into free fatty acids, uh, you know, which are you know then cause oil breakdown.
+
+[43:32] Uh and so you know, hydrolysis from water is one of your enemies, oxidation uh is one of your uh enemies, and this stuff's accelerated at higher all the stuff's accelerated at higher temperature. Polymerization of the oil molecules is another uh enemy, and then also as you fry more, especially at higher temperatures on a pan, you're gonna have food particles falling to uh in a pot rather, you're gonna have food particles falling to the bottom. Since you are supplying the heat from the bottom, the hottest part of the oil is exactly where you don't want it to be, where all the settled crap is and so uh typically what happens is is you'll get very fast oil breakdown. You also because you don't have a high enough power to uh recover fast enough your oil you're gonna be constantly overheating it and the even minimal overheating of oil is incredibly bad for um for the life and the taste of the oil that you're using for frying. So you know that that's just kind of a a general range of kind of what's going on and how you're getting uh shafted.
+
+[44:31] Uh like I said please like I said uh the best way around uh you know the best way to help yourself even in a home frying situation is to go to a commercial supplier go to someone who supplies restaurants and get commercial grade frying oil where they've added uh they've added antioxidants to it they've removed um the fatty acid components that are the most likely to degrade quickly and they also um they sometimes add anti-foaming agents which also prevent the oil from breaking down and so though that professional fry oil is so much better than this than the stuff you can get at the supermarket that uh that that Stas and I have considered actually just buying a bunch of it and selling it to people like like we know what we're doing because it's so much better. You have to buy it in uh five gallon increments. So if you're using it you know relatively quickly stored away from light uh it shouldn't be a problem. They come in plastic cube, they come in like square cardboard. Everyone's seen these on the street when you pass a uh like a like a fry joint, you know, like or you know, whatever, a place that uses a lot of fryers.
+
+[45:40] You'll see them on the on the curb there there. There's those cardboard cubes with the with the plastic cube taner in the middle of them. And uh that stuff's just fantastic. So if you get a hold of that, you're gonna your fry game's gonna go up uh immensely uh right away. What do you think, Stuzz?
+
+[45:55] Yeah. You shall say, I don't care. I don't care. She's watching two more babies. She just says, Oh, Sto's is thinking about the breastfeeding.
+
+[46:02] And and people, I want you to know this lady has a scarf over the baby's face. So Nastasha needs to step back. But uh the uh the uh so we're uh today, by the way, I'll just say this as we're going out. Today we uh we're gonna go to the food and wine and we're doing a Thanksgiving shoot with the Searz all, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[46:20] We're gonna do some sort of fancy tech uh I won't I guess I'm not supposed to spoil it, right? But it's a similar technique to the one that I did back in the day for the uh hamburger with the exploding ketchup in the middle. Remember that with the shot where it's like gabling uh for eater way back in the day. But I'll give a little bit of a secret. What we did is we made Parker House rolls that are filled with stuffing.
+
+[46:40] So it's just a thin layer of Parker House roll with stuffing on the inside. Those are pretty good, right, Sas? Yeah, they were really good. They were good. And remember, oh, did we get another Thanksgiving question I didn't get?
+
+[46:48] Oh, I looked up the turkey. The one that Piper gave you last night. Yeah. So we had a question last week about using hydrogen peroxide, uh H2O2, to disinfect the turkey that was being cooked at low temperature from uh it was uh based on a blog post by uh Simon Quellen Field. And uh I looked it up and the guy coats his entire turkey with baky bacon, by the way.
+
+[47:08] Entire freaking turkey is like uh is like uh you know like a pie is like a lattice. Yep. This is like a lattice of bacon. Uh-huh. Uh and it's extremely low temperature.
+
+[47:16] He put in the H2O two. I was not able to find uh find any references to whether or not that would affect the flavor of the meat in any way. It's used in water uh and it presumably it'll all, you know, it'll react and you won't get it, but I don't know whether the uh like the extreme oxidation reactions are gonna do anything to the flavor of the skin or anything like that. I wasn't able to find any references. And since I don't have a kitchen, I wasn't able to just soak a piece of chicken or something in H2O2 and then cook it off and see whether there's any residual effects.
+
+[47:44] But rest assured, we will try this uh at uh at some point. I feel like we got one more question in Stas. Do we have we have a couple seconds? Wait, well. We have one in from at Raider Nicole.
+
+[47:55] That was the one. Cooking issues. How do you prevent warmed over flavors and reheated chicken? Uh and then it's just as marinade baked or pan-fried as questions. Uh what you do is is store uh store the product uh away from oxygen.
+
+[48:08] It's uh it's oxidation, uh it's oxidative rancidia that's causing the warmed over flavors. So you can reheat uh gently in uh in zippies, ziplocks that you uh have gotten all the oxygen out of uh and then just hit it with high heat to crisp off or do do whatever you want. But you're the enemy there is storing it, allowing it to cool and rest uh in um in uh contact with uh oxygen in the air. And remember to get your Thanksgiving questions in because next week is last cooking issues before Thanksgiving. Cooking issues.
+
+[48:52] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[49:17] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed and grass-finished beef. For more information, visit HearstRanch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Happy Thanksgiving episode. Join in the studio today with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and Piper from Booker and Dax Lab. How you guys doing? Good.
+
+[0:42] Good. Yeah, we got Joe over in the uh engineering booth. Joe, how are you uh how are you doing? I'm doing well. What are you gonna do for the Thanksgiving?
+
+[0:48] Oh, I'm just gonna go back to Baltimore to visit the family. Nice, quiet Thanksgiving. Yeah? Yeah, I'm excited though. You say that's your excited voice?
+
+[0:58] I'm excited though, yeah. Just like that. Yeah, yeah. Alright, nice, nice. And uh uh Piper, you're doing what?
+
+[1:03] What are you doing? You're gonna go to Vermont? Vermont. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[1:06] I've heard that they have no internet and telephone in Vermont, is that true? No. No paved roads either. No, no? No.
+
+[1:12] You gotta go to New Hampshire for paved roads? Oh. Yeah. Yeah, for those of you that uh you know haven't tuned in before, and Piper's on uh, you know, they got a kind of a uh hate hate thing going on between uh Vermont and uh New Hampshire. What's the only thing that they can uh agree on there?
+
+[1:28] Maine. Yeah, and and what about Maine? It's a dark wilderness. I actually like Maine quite a quite a lot. I I I enjoyed Maine.
+
+[1:37] But uh I don't come from up there, so I don't have to worry about it. Stas, uh, what are you gonna do? Parents are here. Oh, wow. We'll just leave it at that.
+
+[1:44] Parents are here. They rented a house where? Uh near New Haven. And who's gonna make the turkey? Mother.
+
+[1:51] And how is your mom's turkey? I'm not gonna talk about it every year. I'm not gonna talk about it. It's great. What do you what's it the lie?
+
+[1:58] Everyone knows, everyone knows it, dude. It's a little dry. Yes. A little dry. What's my next band name?
+
+[2:06] A little dry. Uh calling your questions. Two 7184972128. That's 7184972128. I'm actually going to a uh a potluck family Thanksgiving thing.
+
+[2:18] So I have no idea what the food will be like at all. But I do know one thing. I am driving there and driving home again from it, which means I will not be having any wine at Thanksgiving. That sucks. Yeah, that's the best part.
+
+[2:33] What are you bringing as part of your potluck? I have no freaking idea. I have no idea. I've just put like like people. I have like Thanksgiving, uh as it should be for a food person, is one of my all-time favorite holidays.
+
+[2:46] I love myself some Thanksgiving. Uh and this year I have not had any time to devote to it at at all. But uh what I do have is one of Patrick Martin's Heritage Birds that I'm gonna cook as soon as I get home. So uh hopefully maybe before next time I can talk about the the home cook. But I'm a big believer if you go to somebody else's house for Thanksgiving and you don't necessarily get the the turkey you want, that's all about the fellowship, but you should still try to bust out one good turkey a year just as a proof of you know, proof of schiz.
+
+[3:16] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, right. Uh the three of us, we didn't talk about it, right? We didn't talk about the photo shoot we did it at Food and Wine, did we?
+
+[3:23] Mm mm. Yeah, we did we uh did we did the little turkey with the uh with the gravy packet on the inside where we took the gravy packet, made the gravy packet, uh with gelatin. Yeah, well, extra gelatin, duh, and then uh and calcium, uh, cut it, it was set it, cut it into blocks, uh, threw it into Alginette to p put a heat proof uh like thin layer around it, and then did the very finely pounded uh white meat turkey uh right around the with meat glue, right around the uh gravy packet, then we did the dark meat turkey, then we did the skin, we did the cook off, we then we dried off the skin, we hit it with the Sears all. Sears all, Sears all, Searz all. And then we uh oh this this is the fun part.
+
+[4:05] Stas made uh Parker House roll uh dough, and uh I made my mom stuffing, and we packed the stuffing and we put the Parker House roll around it, and then we uh cooked our stuff off. It tastes pretty good. I mean, Piper couldn't tell because he's not allowed to, you know. Yeah, I could eat the crannies. Oh, Piper made cranets, which do registered trademark.
+
+[4:22] Uh Pat and Penny. Not really, not really Pat and Penny. Not really registered trademark either. But uh that's it was simple. We stuffed that stuff.
+
+[4:29] Uh that stuff was simple. You just mixed uh the we made the cranberry sauce, strained out the solids, and mixed it with uh mayonnaise, right? No. What? No.
+
+[4:37] What do you do? Uh uh I strained out the the solids from the cranberry sauce and when when it was uh not set but still a little bit warm and put the yolk in there. Oh, you made it from screach scratch. You didn't mix mayonnaise, you made it old school. Is it because I yelled at you that the guy that uh bow made it the chocolate mayonnaise back in the day and made you feel bad about it?
+
+[4:55] Uh I mean you set that as sort of a precedent. Yeah. Yeah, I thought Piper took it the easy way out, but it turns out Piper, uh Piper did me proud and did not take the easy way out. And it was uh delicious. It was good.
+
+[5:07] Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. I'm gonna do it for my family, I think. Yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[5:11] Why don't you uh can you fit the recipe into uh Twitter? Can you get it that short? Mm-mm. I I did a whole thing for steak once in Twitter. Stas like no, just look at it.
+
+[5:21] Look at now. Uh you could do like two tweets. No, I bet Piper can't do it in one tweet, that's what I'm saying. Ooh. You don't think Piper can do it in one tweet?
+
+[5:28] We we're struggling with tweets right now. What if I just wrote it down and then took a photo of it? That's a weak tweet. That's weak tweet. Weak tweet.
+
+[5:37] The whole point of the tweet is to try to get within the medium, which is the character. Well, no, he's gonna try to work on outside of it. It'll be on the splatter. Piper's gonna send out this damn recipe one way or other. And in order to get it, I'm not gonna put it on the cooking issues uh tweeting uh feed.
+
+[5:50] You're gonna have to go follow Booker and Dak's lab, uh, which is where the Sears all thing is uh is gonna be going up in two days. Well, two days in like five hours, six two days in like eight hours, whatever it is. Midnight. Midnight. Two days and twelve hours.
+
+[6:06] Thurs Friday. Thurs Friday, Black Friday. So you want to talk about uh what's going on with that? I mean, uh if you're following us on Twitter, you already know that we've got a lot of uh big names using the Sears All, loving the Sears All. Um we're gonna launch it.
+
+[6:21] The video's coming together, the pages coming together, it looks great. I'm excited. Yeah. You want to tell them about our our sushi chef friend? Uhsuke Nakazawa.
+
+[6:30] Yeah. Famous for the. Uh he worked at Jiro. He was the guy who made the omelet. By the way, uh Stas and I have eaten at Jiro.
+
+[6:37] The omelet, the tomato there is in fact different from any other one and delicious. Remember, it was kind of fluffy and like uh almost like a cake. Remember that thing? Mm-hmm. That was actually one of my favorite things about Jiro was the tomato.
+
+[6:48] Delicious. And now the uh the the developer, I guess, the master of my favorite tomato, now uses the Searzel. Yeah. Loves. He's got a restaurant uh somewhere in the West Village, huh?
+
+[7:01] Yeah, but here it's hard to get into though, right? Yeah. Hard to find. It's on Commerce. Oh my god.
+
+[7:05] They look, look, people see here's the problem. Like, you people are you telling inside jokes on the radio. They were in a taxi cab with a famous chef who is known for having a bit of a temper, and the taxi driver was unable to find uh a Nakazawa sushi restaurant. And so uh there was uh hilarity ensued, right? Yeah.
+
+[7:25] And by hilarity I mean anger. And fear. But uh he loves uh Nakazawa loves the the Searzole. Uh doesn't put any taste on the salmon skin that he crisps up with it. Uh it's awesome.
+
+[7:36] Well, maybe someday we can go eat some. See how that see how that works out for us. I'd love to. Um all right. So hey, real quick before we we move on.
+
+[7:44] I just want for our first time listeners, I want to jump in and say, Okay, so what is the Searsol? Why do we want it? Etc. I love the idea that we might have a first-time listener. I feel like we had like we had a certain peak and then we just yeah, and then we just lose them all.
+
+[7:58] So somebody wandered in here. Yeah, right, yeah. It's like, so what is this? Uh so a Searsol, uh it's a good point, uh uh good point, Jalen. Thanks so much.
+
+[8:07] The um Searsol is an attachment that fits on a torch. So for years, right, if you're doing low temperature sous vide cooking, uh, especially at home, the way I used it, honestly, the way I used to finish uh a steak or anything, fish, uh, poultry, anything that I would do sous vide, deep fry. Only way, deep fry, deep fry, deep fry, right? And that's crispy and delicious. Love the deep fryer.
+
+[8:30] Uh problem is not everyone has a commercial deep fryer in their house. I mean, I guess because of like what I said before a couple episodes ago about insurance reasons and whatnot. Some people don't like the idea of uh frying uh things, finished frying things for CV. They're wrong, it's delicious, but you know, whatever. Um, and most people don't have power output enough to heat up a pan sufficiently.
+
+[8:53] Uh so really charcoal grill is a good option, but you know, a lot of people can't do a charcoal grill right away, or they don't have one, or they're in an apartment or something like this. So a lot of people turn to the blowtorch. The problem with blowtorch is uh it creates uh what we call uh torch taste on the meat, which is very very characteristic torchy fuel taste that uh you know our friend Arielle at UC Davis did some uh work uh for us, thank thing you know, thank you, uh, where she showed that in fact it's not the fuel itself that's causing it, but the intense heat of the flame is creating combustion uh flavors on the meat itself. So we have this item called the Searsol, which plugs onto a torch. We recommend the Burntonatic TS 8000, TS8000, because it's 12,000 BTUs.
+
+[9:38] It plugs on this thing and it turns it into a mini handheld uh IR broiler, basically. What do you think? Yeah, that's about right. Yeah? Yeah?
+
+[9:46] Okay. Now for some questions. Rory right's right saying about juice. Hey, to the cooking issues too. My wife just bought a juicer, not the auger type, but the type with the fine spinning blade.
+
+[9:56] My question is how can I preserve the juice for longer than a few hours? I've tried searching the Google, but I get a lot of mumbo jumbo about how you shouldn't try to preserve it because of its magical life-giving nutritional properties are so fleeting. However, I only drink the juice because it tastes good. Is that not reason enough? So, what are my options to get it to last, say, one week?
+
+[10:13] I have ascorbic acid on hand, although I have no idea what sort of percentages to use it in. And I also have a sous vide and no qualms about heating the fruit juice uh heating the fruit prior to juicing, or in fact the resulting juice. I'm keen to make bulk uh lots of tasty fruit, apple, orange, and or veggie juice, whatever's cheap at the market on the weekend to last a week. Love the show as always. Keep it up, regards, Rory Mearns.
+
+[10:33] Okay, uh oh, and then uh PS. I'm gonna read the PS before I answer the question because I love it. PS on these nuts. Because we happen to be listening to the episode with the rant about Virginia peanuts while driving through Virginia on our U.S. road trip holiday.
+
+[10:44] I want to take a U.S. road trip holiday with my kids, but my kids would never be into it. Like I want to do all that crap. My well maybe in a year. Maybe in a year.
+
+[10:51] Did you guys do that when you were kids? Taking the road trip around the country? I've done it recently, but not as a kid. Not as a kid. So oh I'll get into it later if I have time.
+
+[11:01] Like all I'm saying is that I used to do it, and I appreciate that I did it now, but it's boring as hell to sit in the back of the car and watch a bunch of stuff go by. So like when we drive with the kids, the kids like they have their faces buried in iPhones and iPads, and like my wife and her, like, what the hell? Look around at the scenery. Look at this, look. And then they don't really care.
+
+[11:17] And then, like, I remember back, and I'm like, yo, Jen, that's my wife. I was like, yo, uh, Jen, I mean, I remember not giving a crap when I was a kid. Right? But you guys don't have this experience to share with me because you didn't do that. Nope.
+
+[11:30] No. Maybe. Joe, did you do that stuff? And then he's away. Um, you know, not really like cross-country road trips, but you know, we drove a couple hours here and there.
+
+[11:39] And were you bored as crap in the back? Oh, it depends. I also got car sick, so that's kind of my main memory. Feeling feeling nauseous. Sweet.
+
+[11:47] Sweet. Great times. Driving and puking. That was that great Southern Rock band. Remember that?
+
+[11:50] Driving and puking? Yeah. Or was it driving and crying? I think it was driving and crying. Yeah.
+
+[11:54] Should have been driving and puking. Good band. Uh. Okay. We happen to be listening to the episode with the rant about Virginia Peanuts while driving through Virginia on our U.S.
+
+[12:01] road trip holiday. My wife said, Yeah, right. How good can the peanuts really be? I don't know that your wife speaks that way, but that's just my voice when I imitate people. And exact it's exactly what my uh reaction was.
+
+[12:11] Within 10 minutes of that, we stopped at some tired-looking roadside shop and picked up a can of the goods. Wow, we were both blown away. They were so insanely good. And just as you described, with an unfamiliar but satisfying snap to them. Virginia Peanuts, these nuts.
+
+[12:26] Okay, now back to your question. So, um, just one note on juices. You mentioned orange, and obviously orange, you're going to juice it in a different way. The juice will bitter over time. So you just, you know, just test a couple, and it's it's variety dependent.
+
+[12:55] You, you know, uh you just test it, and if after a couple of hours it hasn't gone bitter, you're probably uh you're probably okay. But it's just something to note on uh some citrus fruits, is some will uh undergo post um post juice bittering. Uh some tangerines, uh I don't know whether Clementines do. I think some Clementines do. A lot of navels do.
+
+[13:15] Anyway, just nothing to be aware of. Um Ascorbic acid is gonna be your lifesaver on uh a lot of these things. I wouldn't do uh a pre, I wouldn't do a pre uh juicing uh heat step on it because I don't, you know, you're not gonna get uh mold growth that quickly on your juice in the fridge or in the freezer, as long as it's not moldy to begin with. You wash, you you know, you wash it thoroughly. If you want to do a sanitized step, if you have a non flavor thing of like one of those fruit sandy fruit, what are those things called?
+
+[13:43] You ever seen those things? Those fruit sandy, I never use them. I've never seen them. Uh they have them, they're like solutions you can dip like salad and stuff into if you're pregnant, and then it doesn't like but uh I've never used it. Some people even use like a weak chlorine, dip it in and then let it air out.
+
+[13:56] I've never done it. I never done it. Anyways, but you can do it. Uh and and and juice it, uh, then uh I usually way overdose on ascorbic acid. Like, way overdose on ascorbic acid, like to the tune of about a teaspoon per liter, right?
+
+[14:13] Would you say that's about what we do, pipes? Yeah, it's a lot. It doesn't add too much flavor. It doesn't add too much flavor, but it you know, it does juice you up on vitamin C so you can, you know, pee yellow and maybe live forever. Although Linus Pauling did not live forever.
+
+[14:24] Linus Pauling was the famous two-time Nobel laureate scientist who well, the second one he won was a peace prize, but he thought you could uh greatly increase uh longevity and reduce uh disease by just mega dosing on vitamin C. You know what happened to him? He peed out a bunch of vitamin C and then died? Uh that's pretty accurate. Although he did live to a ripe old age and was, you know, one of the smartest scientists of the twentieth century.
+
+[14:47] Anyway, uh so there you go, Linus Pauling. Uh so anyways, so uh I usually add uh uh about a teaspoon per liter and stir it in. And uh if you want to keep it for a long time, I would say cold, vac bag it, and then freeze it. When you when you do it, the best way to freeze it is to uh vac bag the juice and then lay it on a sheet tray and freeze it flat in a sheet, uh and that way they stack very well in your freezer. And also when it comes time to thaw them, you're only thawing through, you know, like I don't know, like three eighths of an inch to uh you know, three-eighths of an inch roughly is what we usually do them at.
+
+[15:23] Three-eighths of an inch of stuff that you have to thaw out in uh in uh running water in order to get the juice usable again. So that's what I recommend. And juice lasts a good uh week uh in in the in the fridge. Depends on the juice, too. I mean like grapefruit juice, uh what do you think?
+
+[15:38] Weak piper? Nah. Orange juice, a couple days, grapefruit. Freeze it. Freeze it.
+
+[15:44] Yeah, freeze it. Flat and vax. Yeah. You're good. Apple juice would last a good week.
+
+[15:50] Oh, yeah. It's not I don't think you're gonna get mold. Piper would add uh what would you add to as a preservative if you really want to keep that sucker? Um sodium benzoate. Potassium sorbate.
+
+[16:00] It's small amounts. Super micro amount, like uh one hundredth. Yeah, but you only need a small bit because you're really only preventing the slightest look, you're not trying to keep this sucker uh, you know, yeast proof in a shelf stable application over like a zillion years. You're talking about keeping this sucker in the fridge for a week. So the amount of stabilization you you know you need is minimal.
+
+[16:23] I wouldn't I mean if you're doing it for a week, I wouldn't put anything in. But if you were gonna have it on a shelf, I mean you want to prevent against microbial growth. And uh remember, there's also but uh they're not carbonating it. So like when you're doing benzoit in a soda application, which is what Piper's done most of the research on, you know, the the carbon dioxide is also a huge inhibitor. Right.
+
+[16:41] But anyway, and so is the actual the uh the uh asorbic acid is a huge inhibitor too. It's really gonna protect it. Yeah, but it doesn't last. But it'll last a week. Yeah.
+
+[16:50] Ascorbic acid uh doesn't last over time. It gets it gets uh used uh and then it's it's over. But uh I also agree that uh I think you know you're right on point. I only drink the juice because it tastes good. That is reason enough.
+
+[17:01] I don't believe in any magical life-giving nutritional properties. Although I was teaching a bunch of uh kids at Dax's uh third grade class, and this one kid he asked me, he's like, Do they make any machines that uh use juice as a fuel? I was like, You are a machine that uses juice as a fuel, my friend. Third graders are awesome. Anyway, I was explaining steam engines.
+
+[17:20] I love it when they learn about food. Yeah young. Yeah, young juice. Okay. Uh next was that was that an okay answer, Stas?
+
+[17:29] Yeah. Yeah. You're just like, I really I don't care. I don't care. Matt from Chicago writes in also about nuts.
+
+[17:37] Not of not not these, but just it's some nuts. Uh hello, Dave, and all the people who can, unlike Dave, occasionally be absent without thereby causing the whole show to skip a week. Ouch. Wow. Oh, the stats.
+
+[17:48] Have you ever missed one? Have we? Have you ever missed one? No. I think I feel like I've done it once without you.
+
+[17:54] I think I don't know. We'll have to look it up. Okay. You mentioned on this week's episode a desire for a nut question every week. You're probably being facetious, but nevertheless, I'm here to do my part.
+
+[18:02] Now I like nut questions, right, Bass? Yeah. And we got another one after this, too. Awesome. Two more nut questions if we get to them.
+
+[18:08] Awesome. Anyway. I seen remember in one of your early episodes a brief reference to a book which covered methods for making not merely actual tofu but very tofu-like products uh from things other than soy, such as nuts. Speaking of someone who's allergic to soy and all emanations thereof, but nevertheless interested in experimenting with tofu-esque ingredients in the kitchen. I've searched through the archives, it's been unable to identify which episode this was, let alone which book, so I'll just come out and ask.
+
+[18:30] Um, what information sources would you recommend for someone in my situation? Am I merely hallucinating this discussion from the show's past? Is there any consumer intelligent home cook oriented literature which provide a useful guide to the production of faux foo? I like faux foo as a term. Uh Matt from Chicago-ish.
+
+[18:44] P.S. I feel sorry for whatever poor deluded, misguided persons wanted to remove your pro gear from your old apartment kitchen. I, for one, would happily pay a premium for such a kitchen. Stas is like, you preach you need to convert it over here. Okay.
+
+[18:55] So the uh so here here's the thing, Matt. Uh I did talk about that, and m my thought was that it's in modernist cuisine, in the you know, the massive tone that is modernist cuisine. Here is the problem. Uh as I spoke last week, uh we m I moved apartments and all of my books are still in boxes. So I didn't get a chance to uh to go to the book and search it.
+
+[19:20] But my recollection is that Modernist Cuisine has a section not merely on reforming tofu tofu with transglutaminase, but also on making alternative tofus from other legumes and uh other things like that. Now, it's extremely obvious that you can get tofu like textures uh from almost anything you want, any nut milk you want by setting it with the appropriate agents. Um but I assume that's not what you're talking about. I assume you're talking about making an actual tofu like product that uses a coagulation as a as the technique. Now, I myself have uh experimented with uh peanuts and the result was delicious, but the texture was crap.
+
+[20:04] It was worthless, useless. Like I would I tried it only one time. It also clogged, it wouldn't coagulate hard enough, so it clogged my draining uh my you know my draining tiles. Um so and also my Nguyen tofu book also packs. Um all my tofu references are packed.
+
+[20:19] Actually, I found shirt leaf, but he doesn't believe in any of that stuff anyway. Um so uh next week, hopefully I have the the books unpacked and I can uh address it again with the tofu. But uh my guess is is that if you took uh protein like something like uh peanuts and tried to make a peanut fu and you added transglutaminates when I was doing my experiments was well before I had started working with transglutaminase. This is like 2000, this is like 2000, you know, when I was doing this stuff. And like, you know, 12, 13 years ago or something.
+
+[20:46] So uh I need to re revisit it maybe with transglutaminase. I'm sure you could get peanuts to set harder with if you use TG. Wouldn't you think, Pipes? Yeah. I've gotten milk to set with it in the centrifuge.
+
+[20:58] I'm assuming I don't know, Matt, whether you have a centrifuge or not, but we'll I don't I'm sorry. Piper's like, just put in your citifuge. What are you? Jerk. What are you?
+
+[21:07] Man. Piper. Piper. Okay. Uh take a break.
+
+[21:12] Really? Mm-hmm. Alright. We'll come back from the break with more cooking issues. Like what you hear so far?
+
+[22:24] Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit Heritage Radio Network dot org today. Pasture raised on a hundred and fifty thousand acres in Central California. Sustainably produced.
+
+[22:56] Humane. The authentic flavor of the American West. Hell yes! Cooking issues! Love that song.
+
+[23:17] Love that song. Hurst Grinch fed beef. Love that stuff. You know what? But people you don't know this guy yet.
+
+[23:23] Maybe you've heard Nastasha speak about him, but Phil Bravo, uh friend of ours, kind of a friend of the show, not really a friend of the show. Friend, friend of Nastash's. Uh the person that uh that Nastash, you know, currently an enemy of the show, uh, Nastashian Piper uh fed Drew some arch jokes too to mess with his insides. Um he has possibly one of the great radio voices of all times. And he was supposed to come in to the um show today and read the questions for Thanksgiving.
+
+[23:52] His voice, when he wants it to be, is a dead ringer for uh Thoral Ravencroft, who you might know as the voice of Tony the Tiger. In fact, yesterday Phil did a their great, which was I almost fell over. And uh I've heard that he does uh, you know, uh like a life-changing uh Mr. Grinch uh rendition. By the way, I don't want anyone calling in and saying that the Grinch is uh is Boris Karloff.
+
+[24:15] Look, the voice of the Grinch is Boris Karloff, right? Right? But Thor Ravencroft is the song, right? And that's why it sounds different. That's why the song sounds different from the voice.
+
+[24:27] Well, the song is in second person, and the Grinch is typically in first person. Whoa, with the analysis, correct. From creative writing major Piper Christensen. Anyway, so like I can't wait for uh the extremely short Christmas season this year so that I can hear Phil Bravo do his rendition of you're a foul one, Mr. Grinch.
+
+[24:48] Uh but uh I would love the reason I brought that up is because I would love to hear Phil's rendition of her French grass fred beef. Yeah. The authentic taste of the American West, right? Isn't that what it is? I believe it's the authentic taste of the American West.
+
+[25:00] Is that true? As authentic as it gets. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Oh, speaking of which, uh, another one of our uh sponsors, the uh uh I have a uh from Underground Meats.
+
+[25:10] I have something in. This is from uh Brandon Hopkins in Phoenix, Arizona. Hey all. Thanks for the salami recommendations a few weeks ago. I ordered the Tuscan salami super sata.
+
+[25:19] I'll call this. You know what I'm from here, so I'll call it super side. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right? But how do you pronounce it, Stas?
+
+[25:24] How's the actual Italian thing? Soprasata. Soprasata. Uh super sad. Alright.
+
+[25:30] Uh uh Fenochiona, right? Is that right? Mm-hmm. Fennel sausage is which uh salami and the Spanish chorizo from underground meats. Underground meats.
+
+[25:39] Underground meats. Uh everyone that tried them thought they were delicious. The Spanish chorizo was particularly tasty, which I served with Manchego and Quince paste on some toasted baguettes. You were all right, Piper, until he busted out the baguettes. You were all good until he busted out the you like Membrio?
+
+[25:53] I love membrio. Yeah, nice. Why don't you point the mic towards your face when you talk about it? It's because he's shoving his face with food. That's alright.
+
+[26:00] Don't worry about it. Anyway, uh, I like membrio as well. Uh quince paste on some toasted baguettes. All the sausages were far superior to anything I have had in the store. I thought you'd be happy to know how awesome the show's sponsor is.
+
+[26:14] Not only was all their sausage delicious, but their delivery was very fast. I would recommend any sausage fans give underground meats a try. Thanks for the suggestion, Brandon Hopkins. That's a good uh that's good testimonial, right? Yeah, good people, good people there.
+
+[26:28] Anyway. Uh, uh and while we're on the subject of meats, Lucas, friend of the show, writes in, and friend of Mofad came to the Mofad party. Uh, he's gonna give us the deer meat. He also had uh a comment on the uh on the breastfeeding. We have two comments on the breastfeeding uh thing.
+
+[26:43] And uh surprisingly, most people look before we get into this, like I'm not saying that someone should like shove their shove the the the stuff in your face necessarily. I'm just saying, you know, don't be hating, don't be hating, right? That's my point. No? No.
+
+[26:59] All right. All right. So Lucas wants to give us some of his deer meat, which we desperately want. We're gonna like 54 Eldritch is our lab, by the way, on Elder Street between Canal and uh and Hester. Like, we're not available though until after Thanksgiving.
+
+[27:13] So we'll have to get the deer meat some point after Thanksgiving. I already told him. But he writes, uh, for the record, I think women should be able to breastfeed however they want, albeit the usage of the scarf should be a m is a matter of good taste rather than of policy, right? I think that's the point. It's not making a policy, but it is, I guess, good taste, right?
+
+[27:30] I think we can agree. I saw a lady in a business meeting, though. Breast bare breastfeeding. So then Lucas adds, however, as you sit in the center of Hipsteropolis, which is a good word, uh, I don't think you can demand uh too much good taste. Whoa!
+
+[27:47] That is true. Oh. And uh while we're on it, uh, we had another comment in uh on that. Might as well go to that. Dr.
+
+[27:53] Bob writes in. Hi, Anastasia. For some of us, the female body is the pinnacle of creation and should be treated with the utmost respect. When I examine a breast in an emergency uh department exam room, it's done only with a female staffer in attendance. When it's not being examined, the breast is kept uh respectfully tucked away in the exam gown, even though the patient is in a private room.
+
+[28:12] I realize cultural norms vary around the world, but in a New York restaurant with a wide variety of public in attendance, I agree that the respectful thing, particularly for the woman in question, is to keep the breast covered. The awe and mystery of the female form is worthy of preservation, Dr. Bob. Thanks, Dr. Bob.
+
+[28:28] Well, that's the first time. I love the way you said that, Stas. It's awkward. Well, you know you're the one that brought it up. You can't you can't bring something like that up and then No, I know, I appreciate it.
+
+[28:39] It's still awkward. All right. Awkward, right? That's like uh same. Alex from Santa Barbara writes in hello, Dave and Nastasha, and I guess Piper, even though you know Alex didn't include you.
+
+[28:49] Nobody knew it's implied. The implied piper. Is that that's uh that's the next thing, the implied piper? I will skip the fryer talk, because we would talk about fryers. And ask about Thanksgiving.
+
+[28:59] I've been working on a pecan pie. Pecan or pecan? What do you get? Pecan. Are you a pecan or a pecan?
+
+[29:03] Pecan. Pecan? But I think everyone down there goes pecan, right? Pecan? What about Baltimore?
+
+[29:08] You're on the dividing line between the North and the South. What do you say? I say pecan. Yeah? P can sounds like two can.
+
+[29:15] Ooh, two can Sam. Yeah. You know what really ticks me off? They have a new Fruit Loops thing that has this like weird center goop in it. I haven't tried it.
+
+[29:22] My kids have been pestering me, but it hasn't gone on sale yet, so I have we're talking about Fruit Loops, is what we're talking about, Piper. I don't eat cereal. I come from Vermont. So the uh like they have this new Fruit Loops, and the the old advertisement for Fruit Loops was follow your nose, it always knows. And like the two can Sam goes around.
+
+[29:37] Uh but this new one, they're using freaking metal detectors to find the fruit loops. Two can Sam is there where there's two can minions and a freaking metal detector. Why do you need a metal detector to find fruit loops? Follow your nose, Sam. It always knows.
+
+[29:52] Gosh. What's with the fruit goop in the center? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know, man.
+
+[29:58] They're finding the treasure chest. I don't know what the hell's going on with it. First of all, it's a fruit loop, not a fruit pillow. And second of all, the freaking toucan with his giant nose and all the colored stripes is supposed to be able to smell any dang fruit loop product from a mile away. And the fact that maybe he's so old, his nose is shot, he has to use a metal detector to find it.
+
+[30:18] Get your advertising straight. That irritated the heck out of me. And then, even worse, my kids saw that and then they still wanted it because they didn't realize what a slap in the face it was to two cans everywhere, that they had to use uh uh some sort of electronic gimmicry to find the fruit loops. Jerks. Okay.
+
+[30:37] Uh I will skip the fire talking uh back to Alex. And that's about Thanksgiving. I've been working on a pecan pie inspired uh dessert for Thanksgiving, kind of like a peanut butter cup, but with pecans. Uh the flavors are great once sugar oil and molasses are added, but the texture is off. I can't get the crumbly moist, dense texture that the mad scientists at uh Reese's pull off.
+
+[30:56] Any ideas? Listen, uh Alex from Santa Barbara. So the the the trick with when you're trying to imitate somebody else's texture, the best thing to do is to figure out kind of how they how they make it, right? Now I know I've mentioned on the uh on the show before that one of the key notes in a real Reese's peanut butter cup is um is rancidity. Is you know, oxidative rancidity of the uh peanut butter.
+
+[31:22] And uh I believe I mentioned I know I mentioned at some point, I don't know how long ago, that I spoke to someone from a company that does uh oxygen scavenging packaging that prevents rancidity uh in packaged goods, and they did a test run of Reese's peanut butter cups with the uh with the oxygen scavengers in them, and nobody liked them because they missed the taste of rancidity, right? So, anyway, so you might want to let the pecans go rancid before you make it. If you really want it, if you really want to hit that Reese's note right on the button. But what I recommend you do is uh go look up a copycat recipe for uh Reese's. Now uh uh Nastasha looked up there's a well-known uh copycat recipe uh dude named Todd Wilbur.
+
+[32:02] He has YouTube videos, I think, and he has his uh show and he has a couple books on copycat recipes. He tackled um Reese's and um and what he uh uses his trick supposedly is to use reduced fat peanut butter uh and powdered sugar. So he like he's using fundamentally reduced fat peanut butter and powdered sugar. Now, luckily for you, the pecans that you get in general uh have uh my guess is from having ground a lot of pecan butter over the years. Remember, Stas, we used to have to grind pecan butter constantly.
+
+[32:33] Stas is Stas has got that that thank Christ that part of my life is over smile on her face, right? Yeah, yeah. We hated that. I hated doing that. We had to do it all the time.
+
+[32:42] We did we used to just do pecans constantly pecan oil, pecan butter, pecan soups, all in the center fuses, pecans, pecans, pecans. Now, Stas is gonna be reliving that nightmare with hickory nuts! When are we gonna get those things in? Super soon. Okay.
+
+[32:56] So they uh and and we're gonna test butternuts too. But I don't know whether from Home Depot. We found a guy in Home Depot, literally, we're in the plant section. Nastash is in the plant section because it's like I'm I'm gonna go get some bulbs from my house. I'm like, what the and then she's there and she's like, come here, come here.
+
+[33:11] And like this guy is over in the corner talking about, I got all these hickory nuts in the in my in my yacht, and uh, I hear there's some people on the internet, they like these things, so I collected them. And I'm thinking out of selling them, but I don't really know how. And stuff's like, we can buy them. We can buy a lot of the hickory nuts. Right?
+
+[33:26] Isn't that what you said? Yeah, well, you wouldn't talk, but you forced him to but it was you you you both overheard him heard him I guess that's when we were picking up our freeze dryer from ideas and food ideas and food we have a freeze dryer from that we haven't had a chance to fire it up yet I've been working on the uh working on the Sears all so I haven't had a chance to fire up the uh freeze dryer after Thanksgiving we'll fire up the freeze dryer and give you guys reports anyways hey Dave I gotta jump in here for a second so a listener just sent in to info at heritage radio network dot org a picture of crusty o's from the Simpsons that comes with a free jagged metal crustio inside and saying that maybe two can Sam is looking for crustyos. Maybe you mean that's why he because he can't he needs the metal he needs the the metal detector to find the jaggedy metal one. Yeah exactly and I was just impressed at the speed at which that came in I guess it's live radio right I guess yeah we're live we're live when I say coming to you live I'm not messing around. No way.
+
+[34:20] No we're we're actually here real human beings coming to you live. Okay so his secret is uh is to use the reduced fat peanut butter my guess from grinding a lot of pecans over the years is that uh because we would typically to get a good oil uh yield out of the pecans we would add some oil back to it remember that styles because uh they would um they're not as dry as almonds but they're more dry than probably peanuts definitely peanut butter that has oil added to it so if you grind uh straight pecans or I guess you're maybe you're using pecan butter and uh then you gotta get your uh molasses and whatever you else you do to the texture of a powdered sugar. I mean that's gonna be the issue. They don't make a uh how would you do that? Just use brown sugar and powder it, right?
+
+[35:02] So you don't have the extra moisture content. Just powderized brown sugar in a in a RoboCoo with uh some other dry stuff. Freeze and powder it? Like, how are you gonna powder brown sugar? Oh, get the get the free running, get the free running brown.
+
+[35:15] What's gonna gum up? Get the free running brown, maybe? Oh, Demarnara. Yeah. And then powderize it in in a blender.
+
+[35:22] And then uh maybe add some cornstarch to it, because they that cornstarch that's into powder sugar might be helping out a little bit. You don't know what the ratio of cornstarch in in uh powder sugar is, do you? No, it's not huge though. No, it's like a couple percent, right? Yeah.
+
+[35:33] Yeah. So the cornstarch is probably helping with the texture a little bit, right? Because it's you know making it giving it that pasty, la da, right? And then uh powderize the uh brown sugar substitute, uh, and then just make sure the fat content of your pecans aren't too high. And that should be getting the texture you want.
+
+[35:51] And then if you want, check out uh Todd Wilbur's um uh Todd Wilbur's whatever his website. But it looks like you're gonna reduce the oil. And uh, yeah, what do you think? Give it tell me whether it works. I'm interested to hear the result because until I found hickory nuts, my feeling was pecans were God's nut.
+
+[36:07] But now I think hickory nuts are God's nut. Right? God nut. Uh okay. Uh Philippe Lament writes in about possibly, possibly poisoned bread.
+
+[36:19] Uh hello, Dave, Nastasha, Jack and Joe, and Madam Piper. Uh this is Philippe Lament writing in. Thanks for the advice on the soft serve machine. I recently went on vacation and ate at a spectacular restaurant called Amass in Copenhagen. I've never been.
+
+[36:33] I've never been. I was in Copenhagen for like 13 minutes, and I took a train to uh to Sweden, got to hell out. I've never been to any of those restaurants. Amass is in Copenhagen, yeah? Yeah, it's a Copenhagen.
+
+[36:41] Yeah. Anyway. Uh there we were served a bread made with one-third fermented cooked potato. We were told I like the word potato. Potato.
+
+[36:51] Uh we were told uh that the potatoes were cooked, mashed, and put in cryovac bags and fermented in a warm room. The bread was amazing, but wouldn't this anaerobic and warm environment create a poison? What's up? Thank you. Well, yes, it it most likely could.
+
+[37:06] So this is very similar to um uh salt rising bread, uh sometimes made with a potato starter. There's a lot of anaerobic fermentation of uh potatoes in um in uh Andean cooking where you know where the potato comes from. Uh some of the their freeze-dried chunyo potatoes are kept in water and fermented, and there's also something called uh tokash or togash, which is like you literally you bury the potatoes in water for you know, I don't know, like months, and then you dig it up and then it well, I think they say that they use running water, so it it takes the bacteria away, but you and I both know that that's not the case. So uh so yeah, so what's gonna grow in there? So the two main uh things that you're gonna get growing, and in fact, salt rising bread, the actual rising is not done by a yeast, it's done by uh your good buddy Clostridium perfyngens.
+
+[37:55] And uh that that is not good. You do not want to get a uh pornens infection, especially if you're like you know, a soldier in battle, because that causes gas gangrene, which is bad, bad. Uh and it also creates um uh an enterotoxin, which uh, you know, can you know get you sick. Uh so all in all, bad. The uh but the good news is is that when you cook bread, you're cooking it up to uh the boiling point of water, typically to 12 or higher, right?
+
+[38:25] Because it's getting at least at least a 180 Fahrenheit, usually up higher, up closer to the boiling point. And uh well before that happens, the uh toxins from the the bacteria themselves are uh killed. The spores can't germinate because the moisture activity of the bread is not high enough when it's done. And the uh because you might not be killing the spores, remember, because that takes a much higher temperature than that for a long period of time, uh, because Clostridium perfingens is a spore-forming bacteria. But the toxins are neutralized, the vegetative cells are killed, and the spores cannot germinate uh in the environment of the cooked bread.
+
+[39:00] So uh salt risen salt rising bread, safe. Uh also interesting, I read some papers on the line on the internets that say that uh well the other and the other problem, and this you can get this from a poorly stored baked potato, botulism, right? Botulism can grow, and there's been cases of poorly stored uh, you know, people eating baked potatoes uh that have botulism and can cause problems. So uh the good news is that if you're specifically growing clostridium, clostridium perfyngens will uh outcompete the botulism, and there's been studies showing that botulism, clostridium, uh the botulism uh clostridium will not grow in the presence of a thriving uh perfynge uh colony. So that will take care of that.
+
+[39:41] And the other good news is let's say you should grow a uh boatload of botulism, the uh toxin, the botulin uh botulism toxin is also heat labile and will be destroyed by the cooking. So in general, the uh you know, the it seems that you're not gonna die from uh eating um the properly made uh stuff. And my experience from making salt rising bread and from having um clostridium uh fermented um uh what was it, cassava in uh in Senegal was that um it has a very characteristic smell to it, and so you kinda know whether or not it's got the right bacterial mix in there when you're when you're eating it, uh, when you're making it rather. And so hopefully that stuff should guarantee that you're uh not gonna die, and apparently you did not because you wrote us a question, right? What do you think?
+
+[40:29] Yeah, yeah. Solved. Good, it's a good but you know, again, you know, with all of the BS, uh, you know, I am not uh I am not a food safety, blah blah blah. Like, don't don't do this at home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay.
+
+[40:43] Um, we had a question in from uh Joe Blow. Uh Joe Blow 667, uh Joe Blow 67. I can't believe there's only 67. He must have been an early Joe Blow. Because like that's like one of the first ones you're gonna check, right?
+
+[40:57] I'm sure it's like up to like Joe Blow 8,925,326. Anyway, uh any ideas for what you can do with peanut shells. Seems like a giant ways to eat the internet and throw the rest out. Well, you should just throw it on the floor. Yeah, like a uh Western bar.
+
+[41:11] Yeah, yeah, right? Because like that like totally adds to the uh to the what's it called, right? The ambiance. Yeah, ambiance. The ambience.
+
+[41:19] The ambience of the bar. Uh no, but uh uh, you know, take this seriously, like they don't taste good, right? But I don't know, okay. So you guys are like a little bit younger than I am. So when I say peanut, you say like name a person, name a person who's worked with peanuts.
+
+[41:33] I'm gonna see if they it was only when I was a kid that they were teaching this stuff. People feed elephants? No, George Washington Carver, man. When I was a kid, look when I was a kid, if you said if you said the word carver or George Washington Carver, you're peanut, peanut, you know what I mean? If you said peanuts, you're like George and Carver, billion ways to use a peanut.
+
+[41:53] You know what I mean? So George Washington Carver was like, at least in the 70s, we were like like like taught constantly about there was this guy who his life's work was he's gonna figure out how to like squeeze every last piece of uh utility out of the freaking peanut. Turns out the guy also worked on um a sweet potatoes and a bunch of other stuff. He was the he was the head of the agricultural department at uh the Tuskegee Institute for uh many years, starting at the beginning of the 1900s, all the way through, I think, until I think until his death. Uh and uh he he did write a book that you can get online, uh portions of it at least, called uh How to Grow the Peanut and 105 Ways of Preparing It for Human Consumption.
+
+[42:39] And this is not about the hulls, but you should go check it, check it out. He also he did a lot of patent work on like different ways to use peanuts, like making textiles out of peanuts, and that's where the hull comes in, making like ointments out of peanuts, medicines out of peanuts, oils out of peanuts, like like you know, he like people say George Washington cover invented peanut butter. That's a load of that's a load of crap. That is not the case. Although he might have done a lot to popularize peanut butter here in the US of A.
+
+[43:04] And again, the French hate peanut butter. Maybe it's because they have something against George Washington Carver. Weasels. But uh uh very interesting story. You should go read about George Washington Carver.
+
+[43:13] Born uh born a slave, uh became uh, you know, uh uh an eminent um scientist. Anyway, so the one that I like of his is, and then I'll answer your question. The one uh here's a weird ones. Number 43 in the peanut uses is peanut and cheese roast. Right for this?
+
+[43:31] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I I want someone to make this. Like maybe Piper, someday after the Kickstarter is done, you can make this right. One cup grated cheese.
+
+[43:38] No freaking specification of what kind of cheese. Now, this is like 1910 or whatever, so you know, whatever. Maybe we'll have to figure out kind of what kind of cheese they would have had, like just lying around. Okay, you you you will use cheddar and tell us. Okay, one cup bread crumbs, you have to substitute gluten free breadcrumbs, right?
+
+[43:53] So you got your one cup grated cheese, your one cup of breadcrumbs, your teaspoon of chopped onion, your one cup of finely ground peanuts, tablespoon butter, juice of half of a lemon. This is a weird recipe, right? Salt to taste. Cook the onion in the butter and a little water until it's tender. That's random right there.
+
+[44:11] Like adding water to sweat the onion out before the butt that's random stiff stuff right there. Random. Yeah. Uh mix the other ingredients and moisten with water, more water. Using the water in which the onion has been cooked, pour into a shallow baking dish and brown in the oven.
+
+[44:26] That is a weird, weird recipe. Sounds like a dip. No, he says it's a roast. I mean says it sets into a block. He doesn't say whether to serve it hot or serve it cold.
+
+[44:38] I mean, that's crazy recipe. He says cook onion in butter and water. So why add the butter then? And why not just add the butter later? And then mix breadcrumbs, peanuts, lemon, and cheese together with the water and onion stuff and bake it.
+
+[44:59] That's weird. Yeah. It's strange. But I you know what? You know, George Wash.
+
+[45:04] Yeah, we're gonna try it. I'm gonna give George Russian and Carver a try. But to answer your question, well, the only thing I can think of that's useful from a food perspective is you can make charcoal from peanuts. So uh shells. So you take the peanut shells, pack them into uh a chimney starter, light them up, and then to make charcoal, you have to cut off the entire oxygen supply.
+
+[45:20] Once the stuff starts burning, you cut off the oxygen supply. Uh they should go to charcoal. Most people, when they're actually using it for fuel, then compress them into briquettes, and you can look up online how to do this. Uh I wonder whether there's a use for the really fine charcoal, maybe as a really quick way to start charcoal, right? I mean it's gonna burn really quickly or burn really hot, or maybe throw it on top of charcoal to give an extra burst of heat.
+
+[45:41] I don't know. But it's the only thing I can think of from a food perspective. Uh fuel for a smoker, maybe? Just not charcoal, but like regular shells. I don't know.
+
+[45:43] I don't know what their smoke tastes like. I don't know, but that's a good point, Piper. I like the way you think. I like the way you think. They were there's a lot of people who are considering using it in places that don't have a lot of wood and that you know can't afford other things.
+
+[46:02] You know what I mean? Although it's an awful lot of peanuts to be cooking from the hulls. But anyway, so maybe someone will give it a uh try and test it out. Okay. Uh Tristan Catcher writes in uh making a Chev uh sorbet cream cheese and Chev uh and syrup, churning it as normal.
+
+[46:18] It's freezing smooth uh when it's fresh, but overnight it goes solid. How should I stabilize it? I don't think you're adding enough sugar. Uh you need to increase the sugar level on it. Uh what I would do if you don't want it to be sweet is to use a low sugar uh sweetener like uh glucose syrup, uh, which has a DE of like what?
+
+[46:35] It's like 40. I think it's like 43. 40, yeah, 40 something, like low DE, low DE glucose syrup, uh, which is gonna have uh very low sweetness level. There are even less sweet things out there, but that are gonna give you the bodying effect you need and the softening effect you need. Uh if it's an actual stabilization problem, I like LBG locust bean gum for that kind of an application.
+
+[46:57] So you just cook the whole thing out with the add the LBG coal, disperse into uh into uh hopefully water or whatever, and then and then cook it, cook it out above about 85, bring it back down. If you add eggs, I guess you didn't, and then it's a sorbet. So anyway, so then and then uh that that should stabilize it and prevent any stabilization problems you have from a texture, but solidity is almost always a uh a sugar balance problem. Would you agree on that? Yeah.
+
+[47:20] If you don't want to add more sugar, another thing you could do, some people do they add alcohol to soften it. I don't actually like to do that because the the um it melts weirdly when you add a lot of alcohol to a sorbet, like it's like holding together and then all of a sudden it's not holding together anymore. It doesn't have the same meltdown that you get from kind of the sugar inhibition melting. At least that's been my experience in life. What about you, Pipes?
+
+[47:43] Do you feel the same way or no? Uh I haven't had too many uh alcohol. Do you have a color? Oh, we have a color? Color, you're on the air.
+
+[47:51] Hey Dave, how's it going? It's JD. Hey, what are we doing? All right, what's up? Hey, I'm doing all right.
+
+[47:55] Uh I just have some questions in terms of um I'm actually uh helping the uh May May Street Kitchen folks. They recently um opened their restaurant. Oh yeah, how's it how's it doing? Like those people. How's it going?
+
+[48:06] Yeah, it's doing pretty well. I'm actually uh trying to help them with some uh uh a circulator issue they have in terms of uh being able to do some 60 64 degrees C eggs in 60 minutes. Uh and I was wondering uh in terms of uh capacity of being able to say run one circulator, and um I'm wondering how many eggs you could run to be able to meet that 60 minute limit if we do the preheat. You're doing a 64? Yeah.
+
+[48:37] Okay. I mean the good news on 64 is it's a lot easier to hit 64 than it is to hit uh 63, right? So the the two easy the two e like the easiest one is sixty-two, because you don't need to ever get the center up to sixty-two. Sixty-four, you need to get it at sixty-four, but if it goes a little bit over, like two tenths, three tenths, it's not a not a big deal. Um but w what why do you only have one hour to do it?
+
+[49:05] Um in terms of just being able to understand the uh the turn time and and be able to prep for service, and that's typically what they're used to. So I guess um the better question would be, you know, trying to maximize the amount of eggs for one circulator uh in a certain duration. So yeah, go ahead. So I I guess that's kind of basically I want to be able to maximize the amount of egg throughput of eggs in a set amount of time. Right.
+
+[49:36] So what I had noticed is that you know they were doing they were trying to do a 60 minute eggs, and they were doing um and they were telling me that it would t it was taking a little bit longer than they expected, and basically what I determined is that uh they weren't preheating the water uh higher than than so what would happen is that they'd have to wait um for 60 eggs, they had to wait 20 minutes for recovery to get back to 64. Yeah, and 64 you need to be at 64 to get a 64. So I mean, a trick that you you know uh that a lot of people do is uh especially if you're doing something like a creme anglaise, it's really high temperature for a circulator, like you know, eighty, eighty-two. Uh they they they'll set it to eighty-five, drop the stuff in, and within a couple of seconds it it drops down. So you can o like over overheat the water, you have to figure out kind of you have to do a lot of you have to do some some checking, some math.
+
+[50:33] I mean, it doesn't take that long to overcook the white on the inside, so it's can be a little problematic, you know, ramping the temperature high enough to really get back fast enough. Another thing you can do is uh well first of all when you're cooking eggs to a specific temperature like sixty four. Um it's again, that's harder than sixty-two, but easier than sixty-three uh in terms of difficulty, not in terms of texture. Um you have to make sure that the eggs aren't piled uh such that the the eggs in the very center aren't getting proper uh water circulation around them uh or it it's just not going to be cooked right so one of the things that's gonna limit the amount of eggs that you can cook is how many layers you can fit where you get water circulation between all the layers of eggs. Like so that's critical, right?
+
+[51:18] Uh to get water circulation between all the layers of eggs if you want them all to cook at the same rate. The second thing you can do and this is I've done this before is you um just keep a pot of bu boiling water near the eggs and then you just add boiling water by the you know by the um you know like you know panful until because that will level out right away and you can get a sense for kind of how long it takes you to get uh back up and you can bale water out and then if you go over you can throw a couple of ice cubes in and you should be able to stabilize the temperature within like three four minutes. You know what I mean? If you have uh boiling water you should be able to get a fairly stable temperature within three four minutes. Now as to how many I've ever done at once with one circulator usually what I'll what I'll do is I mean I've I've done 62s in very non-ideal circumstances where I've done like a hundred you know or more in one shot.
+
+[52:14] It's not ideal but with sixty two you can get away with it. With sixty four I don't know if you can really get away with that. I mean I would probably say maybe maybe see a flat is what thirty six in a flat? Yeah. Is that right?
+
+[52:26] No twenty what's in a flat? Six by six six by six thirty six? One, two, three flats. Yeah, you could probably do three flats. Probably.
+
+[52:36] But you know, the the um the other thing you can really do, and it makes could make your life a lot easier, is to uh just you know run a cycle and then chill them down, run a cycle, chill them down, and then just re-therm them all at service temps. Reserve you know, retherm them at like 50, 55, 50, 56, and then you can just keep them around. There's no need to cook them all at once. If you if you actually have the time, you can cook them beforehand and then therm them up for service. And they only need like 30, 35, 40 minutes at 55 to re-therm enough for service, and then they can hold at a temperature that low at like 55, 56, even up to 57, really, they can hold for uh you know hours and hours and hours and hours, and they're not gonna they're not gonna change their texture at that temperature.
+
+[53:28] You know what I mean? And that that might be a good solution for them. Okay. Um so I had kind of a follow-up question because in terms of the circulation. I was thinking about building uh, say a custom basket to be able to get the circulation you need.
+
+[53:42] You know, basically like wire stacks. And I was wondering um, you know, how effective do you think that would be, as well as um what do I keep need to keep in mind um in terms of you know keeping it um food safe and not, you know, if I wanted to get materials, you know, what would you suggest that would best suit that? Well, I mean, you're gonna make it out of what? Out of out of metal, out of stainless? Yeah, I was thinking stainless.
+
+[54:08] Um you know, I'm not sure. I was gonna maybe try to, you know, maybe throw some fire baskets in, something of that nature, and stack some um, you know, wire racks in between somehow. Fryer baskets rust like a demon. Uh in my in my uh experience, uh they're not as stainless as you would like them to be. I think a lot of them are actually just chromed over.
+
+[54:30] You know what I mean? And so like they they tend to rust. And even most uh cooking grates that are supposedly stainless, like they rust out in the circ over a long period of time. Uh but you know uh you know, they might last uh a while. If I was gonna do full custom job, I would do I would do stainless or I mean I would do stainless.
+
+[54:53] The other alternative would be uh acrylic or polycarb because you're not cooking at that high a temperature and you're not using alcohol. I mean, if you're not if you're not a believer in polycarb because you're worried about um things leaching out if someone cooks if someone cleans it with detergents and starts breaking down the polycarbonate, you could go with acrylic. Acrylic's easy because you can laser cut acrylic. So if you can build something that way, but it's gonna be heavier and more fragile. I mean, stainless is kind of ideal, like wire work stainless, but then you have to find someone who could do the wire work stainless for you.
+
+[55:21] You could make something with fryer baskets, but when people load eggs into fryer baskets, they tend to glom together in the middle and then the ones in the middle are gonna have problems. What no one's really built that would be super sweet is something that mimics a flat of eggs, but it's just made out of like empty wire and then holds the eggs and then has a way to stack the next flat on top of it so that the every egg is in its own little cage. That would be freaking genius. Like I would buy that. Like if you made that, I would buy that.
+
+[55:47] In fact, I should make that if you don't make it. If you're not gonna make it, I'll make that. I won't because I don't have time, but I'm saying like I would buy that. Wouldn't you buy that, Piper? Yeah, we'll get some coat hangers and rubber bands and like the but the the thing is like like uh you want to fit it into you know like you don't want to be d f using a full size Lexan for that.
+
+[56:04] You want to fit it in the half size uh Lexan, right? Because i you know, any time you cook uh enough eggs where you need a full size Lexan, your recovery time is gonna be ridiculous. So I would build something to maximize the um the tall half the half lexans is what I would go for. Yeah, is is Teflon something that you can use or no? Teflon?
+
+[56:22] Good luck. Teflon is first of all extremely expensive. Uh, you know, it it's kind of flexible, it it's impossible to join. Uh so you have to do everything with uh screw fasteners and like I've never machined Teflon, but I don't know how easy it is to machine. It's really expensive, man.
+
+[56:41] Really. Yeah, I would I wouldn't I wouldn't play the Teflon game. Okay, and then in terms of uh just a quick final one. Um, in terms of watching circulation, I I posted you about putting glitter in the in the water, and you said that was a pain in the ass to clean. Is it doable?
+
+[56:57] Yeah. Do you have other suggestions to be able to watch circulation and make sure that it's working properly? I mean, you like you can just throw one or two floaty craps into it and just watch them go around. You know what I mean? Like and because you that all that always happens anyway.
+
+[57:13] In fact, like I'm always like, what the hell found in my in the in the in this bath? And then you have to like kind of scoop it out, and you can get a good feeling for for what's going on. But literally, like one or two little thingamajigs in there is enough to see kind of how the flow works. You can dump, I mean, like Piper, what would you want to dump in if you were gonna dump something that you had to recover later? It's gotta be big enough so it's not gonna get sucked into your circulator.
+
+[57:35] Or small enough that it can get sucked through without a problem. I'll never forget the time that I uh didn't cheese cloth my circulator and I did uh like uh a like I threw the wood chips in to do the wood chip circulator to get the the flavor of the wood chip. Oh my goodness. Oh my god, it's such a nightmare. Oh, such a freaking nightmare.
+
+[57:55] But the oil was good. I mean, that's a good technique, circulating uh uh charred uh charred wood chips in oil for an oil poach. I mean it's good technique. But uh yeah, but it's uh but it was a pain to clean out, let me tell you. Right.
+
+[58:09] Okay, well um that answers all my questions. Thanks for everything and keep up the good work. Uh thanks. Happy Thanksgiving. All right, we uh actually we have to we have to go out now, but uh Elliot Elliot Pappanell wrote in uh on the Twitter uh can you debunk some stock mythology?
+
+[58:25] Because the New York Times just did something on uh on turkey stock. I don't have time to go into all of it now because they're gonna kick us off. Maybe we'll do some of it on the Twitter uh later on, but turkey stock is was that the only Thanksgiving question we've had? Mm-hmm. Well, anyway.
+
+[58:37] Uh should you cook we'll we'll just handle this one. Should you cook your stock uh covered or uncovered? And I'm gonna go ahead and say that uh the only reason to cook a stock uncovered is so that you don't have the problem of it going to a rolling boil without you noticing it, right? Otherwise you would want to keep it covered because that's gonna keep the aromatics in more. Piper, agree or disagree.
+
+[59:01] Agree. Yeah. So like once you get the thing set and you can ensure that you're not gonna get a rolling boil in it, there's no dang point. Well, the other thing is like a lot of people when we're when you're when you t when you let's say you were at the French Culinary Institute, which you were Piper, right? So when they taught you how to make stocks at the French Culinary Institute, what did they do that I hate?
+
+[59:19] Well, uh, I mean, they made an enormous amount at a time. Yeah, and they and and they they're the bones, the bones and meat to water ratio was in my opinion, way the hell off, right? They they made a weak stock. I don't think I can come out on the radio and say that. No, no, I don't mean it in a bad way.
+
+[59:36] They would then reduce it later. Yeah, they would always make a uh higher water volume and then uh reduce it later. Yeah, I'm much more from the James Peterson school. Great did people still read that stuff? He's a great cookbook writer.
+
+[59:48] From his school, which is, you know, don't overwater it to begin with to minimize the amount of reduction you have to do later. And that's the kind of the school of thought I'm in. So if you're you starting with a high water content and you're doing a stock where you're cooking it for a long time, and I I frankly I don't think turkey stock needs to be cooked that long like you do, like the old ones. I just don't. I think a lot of people spend way too much time cooking their poultry stocks.
+
+[1:00:10] Um you should really use a pressure cooker anyway. Uh so they I think they overwater it and then let it reduce some as it's cooking in the pop. I think that's useless, unnecessary. Just add the amount of water that you want and then cover it and sure it doesn't go to a roiling boil. And the reason you don't want a rolling boil is you don't want to emulsify the oils into it as it as it's going and cause it to get cloudier, which doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you're gonna make a gravy out of it, frankly.
+
+[1:00:32] Right. Right. But they also let it rip overnight too. So they yeah, so they want yeah, which you're not gonna do at home. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:38] Whatever. I don't I think you can cover it. That's my feeling. Cover it and then reduce it later if you want to. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:45] Anyway. Happy Thanksgiving. Cooking your shoes! Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:01:07] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage Radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:34] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a birth pizzeria in Brooklyn. Bookwick, Bookwick. I wish it was Bookwick, that would be awesome. Imagine if this is just all bookstores out here. Yeah.
+
+[0:43] But it would all be hipster books. Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. No Piper today. Piper is working on the Sears All Project, which is fully funded.
+
+[1:01] Joined also uh although listen, people, I gotta be honest with you. Like that's the that's the goal we set. But uh Stas, tell them tell them the sad truth. If we only make our goal, what happens? We barely break even.
+
+[1:13] Not even yet. Yeah, it's not about breaking even though, it's about getting Sears all to people. But uh we got some exciting news uh on the Sears All. Talk uh a little bit uh later about some things that we're gonna add to stretch goals maybe later today, some ideas that we're working on for it in case you people care. For those of you that don't know about the Sears All, the Sears All is now definitely gonna happen because our Kickstarter was funded.
+
+[1:32] Go on Kickstarter and look at it if you haven't already. It uh it's an attachment that turns an ordinary torch into a powerful handheld broiler that can finish all kinds of low temperature. In fact, I will go so far as to say that, especially if you're at home and you don't own a deck broiler. If you own a uh a circulator, you should probably own a Sears all, right? When you see that Joined in the studio with Jack and Joe today.
+
+[1:54] How are you guys doing? We're good. We got Evan here too, new engineer. Hey Evan, how are you doing? How you how are you enjoying the show so far?
+
+[2:00] Oh, it's fantastic. It's nice. See, it's like stuff, you know, like if Nastasha was an engineer, she'd be like, I don't really know. I don't I'm not paying attention, I don't really care. That's what she would say, right?
+
+[2:10] Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. I guess that's why she doesn't have that job though. Well, he's in the honeymoon period, so great. Okay.
+
+[2:22] Uh a little update uh quick from uh Tom Fisher's uh the ongoing saga of Tom Fisher's eggnog that's been aging. By the way, Stas, our eggnog's been aging, right? Yeah, we tried it yesterday. Oh hey, thanks for letting me have a taste. But listen, there uh in fact I was you could have given me a taste when we were loading out.
+
+[2:39] Anyway, uh the uh I I'm also I probably ruined the eggnog because I said I was gonna bring in nutmeg and I didn't. It's okay. Yeah? Yeah. Why are you not a huge fan of like?
+
+[2:48] No, no, no, we can do it later. Yeah, but do you like a lot of nutmeg or no? Yeah, I do. So how was how was your uh stuff? It was good.
+
+[2:54] Just a little skin coat. It was good. Was you no, was yours better or Piper's better? We threw his out. Oh boom.
+
+[3:02] As soon as Piper's like away working, you like talk about his eggnog like it's garbage. He said, I s we had a clean out of the fridge yesterday. And I said, What about this? And he said, It's garbage about his own negative. Yeah.
+
+[3:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we can't talk crap about uh Piper on the show because as he says, my mom listens to this show, which I don't think she does. At least they don't have internet TV and the stuff. He's just trying to make us feel better.
+
+[3:25] It's like classic like salty sailor piper talk there, right? That might be true. Makes no sense. It might be a good show on Heritage Radio, Salty Sailor Piper Talk. Yeah, except for the fact is is like he would just stare the microphone down.
+
+[3:37] Like you have to talk into it, Piper, because the people on the other side can't see you just staring, glaring at the microphone. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Anyways. Uh so anyway.
+
+[3:48] So back to Tom Fisher's. Uh for those of you that uh didn't hear the other episode. Do you want to talk about the Mo Fat event first? Well, let me finish the Tom Fisher thing. I can't believe like I'm actually trying to be on task for once, and you're like trying to pull me a tangents.
+
+[4:00] We'll do that in a second. Um, and by the way, we have in the Nice, now I'm now in my brain. It's on a tangent. Thanks. We have some actual underground meats in the studio with us today that uh Stas and I are gonna start tasting during the break and then continue tasting after the break and talk about it.
+
+[4:16] So very excited about that. Uh anyway, back to Tom Fisher's eggnog. For those of you that don't remember, uh Tom Fisher was making an egg uh an aged eggnog, and we talked about the safety of it and then whether or not it would thicken up. In fact, it has thickened. An update on the aged eggnog from a few weeks back.
+
+[4:30] As the recipe indicated, it has thickened and turned from an off white to a slightly beige color. Was yours also beige? Yeah, it was beige. Uh you know, Booker, my son, has to wear a uniform to school every day. Like, and it's this year it's maroon and khakis.
+
+[4:43] And if you don't wear a uniform, he you get detention, right? Which it frightens him because he like he takes a bus home and he's worried he's gonna miss the bus. And he's like extremely nervous about this sort of thing. Uh anywho, so he he calls khakis kahakis. He's like, are these kahakkies?
+
+[4:59] I don't want detention. I'm like, yes, yes, Booker, those are kahakes. Anyway, so slightly beige color. However, milk fat is separated from the eggnog and floated to the surface. It looks and acts and tastes very much like uh like the thickened cheese like milk fat that rises to the top of unhomogenized milk.
+
+[5:15] Should I strain it off and move on? Or is there something nasty going on here? There are no odd smells or tastes. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, Tom Fisher. Uh Tom, dude, don't strain that sucker off.
+
+[5:26] Whisk that fat back in, baby. You want the fat and the egg, no, you like did you get a uh crap on top? No. Well, if you had, wouldn't you whisked it back in? Yeah, you they uh you missed the you missed the important third choice there, Tom.
+
+[5:38] Stir that stuff back in. Uh, you know, it's interesting. I don't know why it destabilized, uh whatever. Just stir it back in. I'm sure it's delicious.
+
+[5:45] Uh I did have an okay thing. Is this our first one thing since Thanksgiving? Yeah. Wow, it seems like so long ago. How was your Thanksgiving stuff?
+
+[5:50] Good. It was good. I saw you posted uh like the entire family searing on the Sears. Yeah? Yeah, they really loved it.
+
+[5:55] Yeah, I like that there's a picture that Nastasha sent me of her mom using the Searzole, and then the the caption, which not shareable in public, of what she was shouting while she was using, unrelated to the cerezol, by the way. Like completely like like a diet tribe completely unrelated to the actual series. No, it was because my dad was like, you need to hold it close. You need to hold it close. And then she was like She like went off.
+
+[6:15] I love it. Like, can you can you share any of it with us? No. No, you know what she said. She did her famous F you speech.
+
+[6:24] You know, uh the uh the apple doesn't fall far from the tree on this one. And one thing I've learned that Piper somehow is not for years working with you is like when you're using the Sears all, like trying to give you pointers, I'm like, Piper, are you dunce? Like you don't t you don't tell Nastasha how to use the Sears all while she's using it, right? That's a non-start. Right.
+
+[6:41] It's a non-starting, non-starting thing. Uh by the way, do we have Pierre on the phone yet? Yes. We do? Oh, awesome.
+
+[6:48] So listen here. So uh let's get Pierre on the phone. Uh we're joined uh via phone today. A good friend of ours, Pierre Cham, who is uh uh a chef here in New York and also uh, you know, from originally from Senegal, has what I think is the only at least the only, you know, one that I know of that's you know, good uh Senegalese cookbook in English uh on the market here in uh in the US it's an excellent book it's also beautiful the pictures are beautiful and having gone to Sen he he was the the chef who sponsored the trip that we went over to Senegal uh which was uh fantastic trip um and anyway Pierre uh uh glad to have you on the show how you doing hey Dave I'm well yeah good good I by the way uh you know I was reading uh I had a qu the reason I called you today is uh we had a a question regarding um TB gen coming in and so I figured which by the way for those of you that don't know like it's kind of the national dish of Senegal wouldn't you say Pierre? It is the national dish.
+
+[7:49] You wanna you want to describe it really quickly for the folks? Uh Chebujan is a wall of wood that translates simply rice and fish but it's a little more complex than that. It's um I would say it's kind of a version of a paella you know if you go to the north of Senegal that's where you see some other seafood involved with it. But the simple Chebujin is really a a fish a firm white flesh fish could be a grouper could be a snapper sometimes blue fish you know it depends. And it's stuffed with a parsley mixture.
+
+[8:26] The fish is stuffed with a parsley mixture and it's cooked in a broth that has tomatoes and all the vegetables that are cooked that comes with a chewin must be root vegetables yucca sweet potatoes cabbage and um okra and then the that same broth we cook rice in it. So the rice is cooked in that slow red tomato broth and it comes with the uh the the rice comes out right bright red. That's why I was making the connection with fire. So um that's basically what it is. You have a rice, red rice, a fish that's stuffed with parsley, uh parsley mixture, and the broth that has uh cooked first all the uh root vegetables and the fish and it finishes with uh a a ta such a tamarind actually.
+
+[9:13] So it has a uh uh uh uh a sweet and sour end to the to the whole to the whole dish. Right, but they also like the the the characteristic like when you go to Senegal, right? Or the the what's amazing is the different kinds of uh fermented products. Yes, absolutely. Right.
+
+[9:33] So I mean the geg with without the geg you don't have yourself a t bajin, right? No, no, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. You you're getting deep there, but you're right, the geg is a a big component of the chewujan. When you cook that broth, you add the geg to it, and um and uh the the geg is in the in the in the the tomato broth that I mentioned and uh the yet as well, another uh fermented conch. The geg is a fermented fish and the yet is a fermented conch.
+
+[10:03] And both of these add that umami flavor to the chewujan, and that's very, very important. You just put a a small portion of the get because it's very very potent and very very strong. So that's that's what uh makes that uh fermented flavor to the chewujan. Right, it's potent and strong, and for people who aren't used to it, it's you know, they're like a little freaked out by the aroma, but it's the stuff is straight up delicious. The yet, especially, I mean the geg you I guess you can eat the chunks straight a lot, but the yet I can eat that after it's been like braised, I can just eat it a lot of it.
+
+[10:35] It's good. I love it. It's it's uh it's an acquired taste for some people, but I mean you and I, we we really are adventurous, and I love the gadget. The yet the yet is like, you know, it's it's has that chewiness, but it's also fermented, so it breaks quite quite easy. If it's cooked for a long time, it it it breaks and digests pretty easily.
+
+[10:53] It's delicious. I love it. Yeah, I mean, uh another but before we get to the actual question, since you know we have you on the phone, we don't get to have you on the phone very often. There's a lot of spices over there that I think have uh so I mean obviously uh you know, yet and geg are not uh vegetarian, but there's a lot of fermented products in uh in Senegalese food that are really, really, really good for vegetarian cooking that have not become popular with chefs over here. And I think the one that strikes pops right into my head right away is netutu.
+
+[11:29] Yes, absolutely. Netetu is actually it's a locust uh uh from a tree, right? It's not a a locust uh an animal. Yeah, it's like a legume uh pod from a tree, yeah. Exactly, yeah.
+
+[11:42] Uh we call it netetu, but the fruit itself is called nere. And after the fermentation process, that becomes metetu. Um and uh and also it's uh it's it's it's uh it adds an amazing flavor. It's very popular throughout West Africa, it's not only in Senegal, but you see it in in in Mali, in Guinea, even in Nigeria, and that's uh you know, it comes with different names, but that's the same exact uh uh um legume, fermented legume, and it's good for vegetarian. There's no no no no no animal in it.
+
+[12:13] Yeah, and uh I mean in rice dishes, in broths, it can all of a sudden you know how like a lot of times a vegetarian rice dish, it's sometimes difficult to get the kind of power of flavor and umami you want. Nettitude, bang. Delicious, right? Um uh it's amazing. You know, even you know, the uh one one way to prepare the netitude that I particularly like is in the south of Senegal in Casamas, which next time we definitely have to make it to that part of Senegal, Dave, next time you go to Senegal.
+
+[12:38] But you know how they cook it? They cook the rice, you know, uh just a simple rice, white rice, let's say, and at the end of the cooking process, when the water has evaporated, you open your pot, you the the cover, the cover of the rice, and you you dig a hole in the middle of the rice, and that nettetu, which you have uh mixed with onion to make it uh, you know, uh grated onion to make it into a bowl, a liquid uh uh uh uh a thick paste, and that thick paste is just buried in inside the rice, and you just close it back and you allow it to sit there for like ten minutes. No fire, just ten minutes. The the rice steaming with that nettetu, that nettetu bowl. I do you picture the the the what I'm trying to say?
+
+[13:24] Yeah, yeah. It's very it's very simple. But does it perfume the whole thing? Pardon? Does it perfume the whole thing?
+
+[13:31] It perfumes it perfumes the whole thing. It's uh and the netatou bowl itself has that uh a very, very flavorful rice slash cement. It's just an amazing I it's really difficult to describe. You have to taste it, but it's it's delicious. Could you could you do it in a rice cooker?
+
+[13:49] Oh yes, absolutely, you can do it in the rice cooker. Again, once the water has evaporated, you just dig a hole in the rice, in the middle of the rice, and you put that bowl of netatou that you mix with with onion, just simply knit it to an onion, you can add some chili pepper to bring some heat to it. But you make a small bowl, you know, the size of a less than a half of a fist, and you put it in the middle of the rice in and you close it back. Do you use the uh the powdered netted too, the seeds or the whole pods? The the powdered nitty too is fine, the whole pot is fine, but the powdered nitty too, which is easier to have here in New York, you know, in the African market, and that's all you use, the powdered nitty, and that's why you add the onion, because the onions bring that the the the the juice of the onion would make it into a paste into uh you know and the and the paste you can for for shape it into a bowl, and that little bowl is the what you what you put into the rice.
+
+[14:40] Right. For people who go out, and I hope they do go to you know fine local African markets and buy the netitude. Do not judge, do not judge what's gonna happen to the food you cook based on the initial dry smell of the netitu. It's totally different once it's cooked. Completely, completely.
+
+[14:58] Yeah, that would I would not I mean don't smell it, I guess. That would turn you off. You know, it's very strong, like I say, it's very, very potent. But David, you tasted it and uh you know the difference. It's uh it's a drastic difference.
+
+[15:11] It brings so much flavor to any dish, any dish, vegetarian dishes, you'll feel like you know you you haven't had anything vegetarian before because it's strictly vegetarian, but it's so much so much flavor again, so much taste. And another thing over there that I thought was really interesting was uh they eat I don't even know the name of it, but these fermented onion balls, these dried fermented onion balls that are like they look like kind of crushed, they look like just chopped up onions in balls and fermented. We we bought them in a in a market. Yeah, and they they you know what they that's the one they add some nitty to it. They fermented are you are we talking about the one with it's already shaped, right?
+
+[15:52] Yeah, in a bowl or it's it's yeah, it's already shaped in a ball and dried, so it's very similar to what you're saying, just a dried version of it? Uh uh exactly, yes, yes, yes, exactly. Those are delicious. It's great. It's delicious.
+
+[16:03] Yes. I'm glad you remember those. Yeah. They they they're amazing. They're really amazing.
+
+[16:07] I didn't know they had the net too in it already. Yeah, that stuff is great. Uh it's amazing. Another another spice that you don't get over here very often that's more specialized for the cafe tuba. Although I'm I'm thinking I'm trying to get that on the menu at uh at Booker and Dax at the bar is the uh here's another thing.
+
+[16:21] Like Wolof words are impossible for uh English, you know, American English people to pronounce. I literally sat there for about 10 minutes with the seller, if you remember this, trying to pronounce the spice, and I would think I was saying exactly what he was saying, but I wasn't. Jar. I can't pronounce it. So like I don't how do you how do you say it in real life?
+
+[16:43] Jar. Jar. Yeah. Jar. Jar.
+
+[16:45] Yeah, and no, they're like jar. He's like, no, no, no, jar. I'm like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't get it.
+
+[16:51] It's impossible to get. It's funny. Yeah, you should you should I I can definitely taste your cocktails at the book and that's with that spice, is jar. I mean, uh, I need her. Remember Anita, she came to the festival with us.
+
+[17:06] Yeah, we're talking about Anita Lowe, by the way, folks. Uh, really amazing uh chef here in New York. Go ahead. Yeah, she had a special uh with the jar at her restaurant for for quite some time. It was very popular, and she made a salad with it, with beets and goat cheese.
+
+[17:20] Uh very, very creative. And cocoa, cocoa powder too. I I I was amazed by by the flavor. Well, the the interesting thing about it is it's got a lot of notes of it's got some peppery notes, but it also has some more resin notes and s almost some like a kind of uh almost I don't know, cardamomine notes and resin notes, but it's right but it's not at all like and people confuse it, it's not at all like what we call uh Balinese long peppers totally different totally different flavor it's not um and and I I I read in in English that uh the translation into English is get this one Pierre grains of Salim. But I don't know if that's true or false because you know what?
+
+[18:01] I that's the first time I heard about it at Anita actually she she mentioned that when she was trying to translate it on her menu. She did say grain of Salim but I didn't know that. You know I really didn't know and just I didn't know that's what it was called in English. But I you know it's called that in English maybe but no one uses it in English speaking countries so there's no point. I think it's much better to try and use the Woloff word.
+
+[18:23] The problem is none of us can pronounce it properly uh but you know they they use it there in the in the in the cafe tuba which is a great you know a great and very distinctive kind of Senegalese uh drink f uh the Morides uh you know the this Sufi brotherhood which by the way they're extremely uh they they're like why don't you you want to talk about the man it's not really food but give me give me a couple words on the Morides. Oh me oh you're talking about about the Mouri the Morides are like um a a Sufi brotherhood like you say Senegalese Muslims are mostly from two two families and they're all Sufis. Um you don't really have the traditional strictly Sunnis in Senegal and that's also one of the reasons why the the country is very tolerant because uh you know they they transcend the the strictly orthodox uh type of Islam as you you probably noticed they when you're in Senegal, you know, it's pretty you know, i it doesn't strike to you strike to you as like it's strict Muslim country. It's a it's it's it's a ninety percent Muslim country, but most of them are Sufis, you know, so they they are very tolerant of all the religions, you know, uh you know, it's uh it's also uh uh uh a lake country, it's not an Islamic country per se. So you can you have your drinks, you can have your you know, the the any the bars are open, you know.
+
+[19:45] Uh to make a long story short, the Murids are following uh uh uh a man called Amadou Bamba who who came to Senegal during the colonial time and he had a pacific type of resistance could be compared to mu uh to Gandhi in India, for instance. And uh and uh they they they they're growing, they're becoming they probably are right now the the largest uh Sufi group in the country. They're very powerful, they're self-reliable, they they they're very entrepreneurial. You know, you see a lot of Murids traveling the world. You see many of the people you'd see, the Senegalese you'd see selling in the streets of of New York City or Hong Kong or Paris are mostly Moorids and they they you know they they they uh that's uh like I said, entrepreneurial group and this coffee that uh we're talking about the drink that we're talking about, is called Cafe Tuba and Tuba is the name of the the holy city of the Murid.
+
+[20:43] You know, that's a city that's a couple hours from Dakar. The Murids believe that Tuba is uh is going to Tuba is as good as going to to the to Mecca, you know, the Murids go to Tuba, they don't go to Mecca in pilgrimage for instance. Um so basically that's uh you know, in two minutes, that's what the Murids are. Alright. And uh our question, by the way, uh to get back to the question if someone answered, the reason that we're on the uh on the phone together, uh they're gonna be talking about rice.
+
+[21:11] Now we yeah, as we said, Tibijan is rice and fish, rice incredibly important to it. Usually typically would have been made back in the day with broken rice, right? To thicken it up more than that. Oh, it is still make made in with broken rice in Senegal, but you can make it with with uh you know, with with regular jadmin rice or that's not the rice. But in Senegal, uh the the two Chebugen is with broken rice, yes.
+
+[21:33] Right. So that's gonna release some of the starch in while it's cooking, which is going to be important for the thing that's coming up. But before I get into the question, um, so for those of you that don't know kind of Senegalese geography at all, Tacazamans is in the south, right? And uh and you know what Pierre was saying, the kind of the heart of Tibou Gen is in uh San Luis, which is in the very north on the river, right? Yes, all right.
+
+[21:57] So uh or not the n or it's well it's in the northern part anyway, right? San Luis is north. Yeah, yeah, it is by the river, you're right. So um so the the point is is that in Casamance, what a lot of people don't uh think about is that the original rice of Casamance is not Asian rice. The original rice of Casimans is uh is Glaberima rice, which was uh actually domesticated um in Africa, and I think probably in Senegal and Gambia at the s right?
+
+[22:30] I mean that's originally where it comes from. Uh that's right. Now, those rices have been even locally, except for in small areas, completely uh replaced, unfortunately, and that's with uh with Asian rice, correct or not correct? That's correct, yes. Now would Thibu Gen originally have been made with the Glaberima, or would or is that uh in other words, do they would they also have had the Glabarima up in San Louis, or would it always there have been made with uh the Asian rice?
+
+[22:58] No, no, no. It was always the Glabarina until until colonial time until we started to import rice that originally came from the other part of the French colonial empire, like the whole Vietnam region, and now our rice is unfortunately imported. I think unfortunately because people prefer to import rice rather than using the local and it's in for imported from from Indonesia and you know Southeast Asia. But uh originally no the rice came from from Cazamas, from the the same region 'cause it wasn't only Cazamat and Gambia, but you know, you had the Glaberima is also in Guinea, in Sierra Leone, in in Liberia. It was the African rice, you know, and that rice is as ancient as far as uh you know um anthropologists are concerned, is as ancient as the Asian rice.
+
+[23:46] So, you know, so we have two families, two major families of rice, the the the African rice and the in the Southeast Asian rice. Right that came about the same time. You know, I don't remember because we didn't look at we didn't get to go to Casmans when I went there, but I don't know that we even had Glabarema when we're over there, did we? I I thought we probably didn't know. We didn't have Glabarima because again, like I said, the whole northern part of Senegal is is is i is eating imported rice.
+
+[24:15] Remember one of the reasons why we we we had this event is to we just pro promote local cuisine and to and to to to showcase what we really have and and and and and to change the the the the the people ways of thinking that when it comes from elsewhere it's better than what we have at home and that's unfortunately the case in in in in many of the cities in Africa, you know, we import a lot of our food and and and the local goods are eaten by the in the country by the by the r you know the rural area but in the urban areas people think it's best to order to import food from from from elsewhere and uh and the the Asian rice is still very very popular in the northern part of Senegal in Seneca in St. Louis in Dhaka and it's competing with the the tradition of the glaberima that because the Glabarima is still being grown in a very artisanal way. So it's not industrial it just comes a few months out of the year like a couple months when the harvest comes and then you know it's it's finished. But it's it's uh you know it's changing gradually now it's people are people are realizing that not only glabarema is healthier rice but it has a another flavor that you unfortunately you you didn't get to to experience when we were there. I'm trying to find a way to bring some glab arema here in New York and we will definitely have a taste of it.
+
+[25:41] Yeah sure you know get New Yorkers like uh like me that pay uh a premium for it and then maybe it'll get more respected where where it comes from except for then you might have the uh whatever when I was over there everyone was talking about the quinoa problem. You make something that's popular and then all of a sudden the people who make it and r rely on it can no longer afford it. So it's it's very hard to win. You know what I mean? It has it's hard to win but you know that's a good problem to have hopefully the quinoa experience will help us deal with you know with that problem before it it it it occurs.
+
+[26:12] But uh it's really something we need to to to to work on because that would be so unfortunate to to have you know cities like this disappear because of you know competition. They they great cities. Alright, so listen, we have a caller who's we're gonna we're gonna take them together, Pierre, whatever the caller's gonna ask. But uh then after that, before we go to break, we're gonna get to the question, which is about the crispy rice at the bottom of the T Bougen. Someone wants to know how to make it, and so I figure the best way is to get uh official Senegalese cook on the on the rib.
+
+[26:45] But LaCaller, you're on the air. Hello. Hey. Yeah, I have a couple questions on low time cooking. Oh sure.
+
+[26:54] Specifically I have a few friends that are pregnant, and I'm wondering uh about trade-offs and cooking to pasteurizer or being safe when cooking for people that are pregnant. Um and you know, balancing for like fish, beef and chicken against you know, texture and quality. Yeah. Um, and then also wondering about you know, storage guidelines for uh low temp cooking, so without a vacuum. Right.
+
+[27:18] So when I'm cooking for uh pregnant people with a circulator, which I have a lot, um when you're cooking eggs for Benedicts, just cook them at 62 for a full hour and they're good. You're safe. Um when you're doing any other meat cuts, I go to pasteurization temperatures. So like for a 55 degree steak, you're gonna want to let it go for probably uh I mean it's it's overkill, but once the core reaches uh the temperature, like a hundred and twenty minutes or something like that, that's actually overkill, but I like to overkill when I'm dealing with this because you don't want it to be your fault. So it's gonna take you sear the you sear the outside, uh, you know, you you and then you cook it.
+
+[28:00] Um it'll you know, a normal size rib steak will probably start its uh kill uh kill stuff within uh at the center it'll start killing within probably thirty you know, forty minutes or so, and then uh after it reaches that killing stage, you hold it for the hundred and twenty. For this kind of a thing, I really recommend getting one of the uh iPhone or iPad apps like Sous V dashboard or the you know the poly science one because they're good at uh just figuring out exactly based on the thickness, like how long it's gonna take to get to a temperature. When it comes to fish, fish is kind of a pain in the butt. It's impossible to pasteurize most fishes and still have them taste good. Uh fish is fish.
+
+[28:38] Uh and uh so uh ones that can tolerate it are the firm flesh white fish. So stripers are good. Um because you can cook a striper, you know, at 55, 56, 57. It's firm, it may be firmer than you normally like to cook it, but it's still it hasn't gone dry. And the meteor white fish like that are better when they're overcooked as opposed to uh, you know, overcooked uh, you know, tuna is wretched, or you know, overcooked salmon even at those temperatures is pretty wretched.
+
+[29:07] But a striper can kind of put up with that sort of uh thing. So those things can be um those things can be done. The if you don't have a vacuum, the question you know, you putting it in a ziploc, uh I you know uh it's hard for me to give actual guidelines for uh storage times. I've I'm always like when I'm cooking for someone, I'm kind of like just hyper about it. Uh when I'm cooking for either pregnant or someone who's, you know, i h hospitalized or sick.
+
+[29:33] So I tend not to store things for a long time unless I have to, because I'm the only person that can cook for them and I only see them once a week, and you should be okay for that, especially if they're doing a retherm. And if they do a re-therm, they can do like a temporary retherm in uh in like a really hot bath before they bring it up slowly to temperature, and you should be all right. Does that uh answer the questions? Um yeah, thank you. And and I'm in for a few dollars.
+
+[29:57] And what? Oh, really cool, awesome. Yeah. Uh sweet, sweet. Well, uh enjoy it.
+
+[29:59] Enjoy it. We're gonna we'll talk more about it either later or uh next next week about kind of some new uses we found and where we are in the uh in the thing. But thanks so much for backing us. Have a good one. All right, thanks.
+
+[30:11] Alright, Pierre, here we are, back on the back on the rice in the Tibu gen. Okay, so this word, which is wall off, which uh I will not uh will not attempt to pronounce X O O and then N with the N on it. How do you say that? The r crispy rice at the bottom. Horn.
+
+[30:36] It's cl close to the Spanish uh jota, you know. Oh man, that's that's that's impossible. It's that's impossible here. So to backtrack in case you know you're just joining in. So Tiva Gen, you take your rice, uh you take your fish, you slice it, you stuff it with uh like a herb mixture, you cook it a little bit with oil and onions, then you uh make a broth, and then you put the rice in you cook with tomato, you cook it with the broth and the root vegetables, the the rice soaks up the liquid, but in the bottom of the pot you get this crispy say that again?
+
+[31:13] And and for many people this is their favorite part, yes? Oh yes, it's uh it's a must. You know, perfect kibujen, you have to have that golden crust, golden brown crust from the bottom of the pot when you cook the chibujan, it comes on the side. And uh, and that that's really is a great way to enjoy your your chubby and it adds texture to it, it. It has that crispy texture to the to the to the moist rice, and um I I love it.
+
+[31:41] I really love it. That's so much flavor to it. So give me the secrets. Is it the the pot, the heat, the combination of the heat in the pot? Is it the oil that goes in the bottom?
+
+[31:44] I mean, I'm sure the oil has something to do with it, but just tell us like the secrets to get a good one. Absolutely, the oil, the oil and the pot. You know, when you when you cook it first, you start when you start the chubby and you start with the oil and the tomatoes. Right? You cook the oil and the tomatoes, allow it to cook slowly until the tomatoes are cooked.
+
+[32:10] You know, you could use tomato and tomato paste actually. And you allow it to cook slowly, slowly until the tomato goes from red to like really dark red, almost black. But you don't want to burn it. You don't want to burn it. But as you cook it, if you see that it's starting to burn, add water a little bit at a time, like a tablespoon to two tablespoons at a time.
+
+[32:32] But slowly, you know, that's before you add your water that's going to cook the rice and the vegetables and everything else. You have to cook only oil and tomato. Am I making sense here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So once you cook it to that point where the tomatoes are cooked and the sugar is released, because you should release sugar.
+
+[32:52] You realize you realize there's a caramelization that's happening. That's why the tomatoes going from red to almost black, but not black. You don't want it to be burnt again. But that sugar is going to that sugar combination of the sugar and the oil are going to be the the the the agent that will crisp your rice. Yeah.
+
+[33:15] And you know, there's there's uh like a lot of cultures have this love of the crispy bottom of the of the thing. In uh Iranian cooking, you have the you know you know, they have the crispy stuff at the at the bottom. Uh, you know, I think they they use binders like egg and yogurt in theirs, right? They cook it and then they do the egg and the yogurt. I forget, it's been a long time since I've looked up the recipes for that stuff.
+
+[33:36] And then also in South South Carol, you know, cooking of South Carolina, on the old style, which probably is all from uh West Africa anyway, uh, you know, though they have these crispy, uh crispy casserole rice dishes. The difference is Tibou Gen is not turned out like a like a like a casserole dish. It's like it's uh it's scooped out of the pot and then the crust is served separately, right? It's presented on a platter, yeah. It is served separately, exactly.
+
+[34:02] So separately, or if you eat around in a bowl like we eat traditionally, it's served on the corner of the bowl, you know. It's it's it comes on a platter, but uh you know they put it on the corner to to the people who will be eating the crust. Because not everyone eats the crust, you know. We try to like take it for, you know, the the mature people. You don't give it to the kids, you give it to the older kids.
+
+[34:22] So it's just the whole the whole cultural thing behind behind you know who's allowed to have part of that crust. Another interesting thing about the crust I'm wondering is is that you know, one of the strange things about uh about uh Senegalese cooking right now that I you know I just heard from you know listening to the we went to a seminar about it, uh is that people are using more and more oil, not for the taste, but just as a sign of being able to use the more oil in it. And do you think that's affecting the way that the the crust is being formed in general in the average Tibu Jan or affecting cooking in general in Senegal and the way things taste now versus the way they would have tasted uh you know eighty, a hundred years ago? It it is affecting it is it's affecting the way people, yeah, the way people are eating. It's for some reason it is seen seen as a sign of of um of wealth.
+
+[35:12] You know, it's the more oil you use, the more uh affluent you are. Um that's something that came up, I believe, also again in colonial times, and gradually when peanut oil arrives, you know, peanut oil at first it was palm oil for us, you know, traditional palm food oil was our our oil of choice. And uh and peanut oil became something uh pretty pretty popular with less year, you know, the French factories came and they made peanut oil, and peanut was also one of those uh you know crops that was uh people don't realize that peanut was was imported to Senegal. It was not uh a traditional Senegalese crop. You know, it came from the Americas as a matter of fact.
+
+[35:57] We had we had something similar to peanut groundnuts, you know, but uh it wasn't it wasn't as uh it wasn't used the way peanut oil is used right now. So anyway, it became a sign of affluence because again, you know, we want it to be like the colonials, so you know, as the colonials use that oil we use, the more we use, the more affluent we are. And it it can it came into our our recipes too, and now you see people using more peanut oil into their rice. And uh it came it also it also brought some some some diseases. Unfortunately, some diseases got imported with it.
+
+[36:34] You see um diabetes, for instance, which wasn't part of our you know of the illnesses that existed in Senegal. It's something that's very popular now because of that change of diet, you know, and uh the excess of sodium, all those things uh uh are uh ch uh affecting the the the the population uh unfortunately due to the change of diet again. But um the to get back to your question with the honey the crust and the oil, that's really the the oil is very important to it, but it doesn't have to be uh in excess, you know, it's important to have the first step to when you prepare that rice. The oil and the tomato starting the cooking process have enough oil but it shouldn't be uh, you know, more than uh a couple of tablespoons of oil, you know, for uh a a nice part of rice. And you cook it slowly, again cook it slowly before you add once the tomatoes are cooked and nicely caramelized, then you add your water, allow the water to boil and then you add the rice.
+
+[37:39] And you cook and you close the rice at that stage and you just close it and lower the the the heat, you know, to a similar just like you would cook regular rice. And you forget about it. Now don't touch that part until all the water, all the juice, that tomato broth has evaporated. Once it has evaporated, still allow it to sit for a moment and uh then you fluff your rice, you redistribute the tomato, you have your bright red rice and you realize at the bottom of that pot that crust, that cone that we're talking about has formed, you know. So you pull out the rice and with the spoon, you know, you just take out the crust, you know with you know it takes some some other strength to it but you pull out the crust with the and just rake the bottom of that part.
+
+[38:31] And that's how you get the crust, you know, just allow it to cook slowly. First of all, just again, and let the tomato cook and caramelize before you add the rice. And then do not touch it, do not stir it. Let the let the crust form in the bottom. Very, very, very, very simple process, actually.
+
+[38:50] Alright, well, beautiful, Pierre. Pierre's book has a recipe for Tibujan in it. Is Yolele, right? Yolele is still available right now on Amazon. It's got means it's the only one available, right?
+
+[39:01] It's the only one in English available, yes. And uh, yeah. And uh as a matter of fact, there's another book coming up next for we're working on it. Still uh uh the uh working title Senegal from the source to the table. You'll hear about it, baby.
+
+[39:16] All right, well, come come on the show and we'll push it. Absolutely will. All right, thanks, Pierre. Thanks for talking. Uh talking crust.
+
+[39:25] I can't pronounce that. All right, we're gonna take a commercial break and we'll be right back. Thanks, Pierre. Thanks, Dave. Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin.
+
+[39:58] They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, berkshirs, and mule Foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami.
+
+[40:28] To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org. Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back. Welcome to Cooking Issues, or welcome back to Cooking Issues. So we're tasting the underground meats, and uh let me get this straight.
+
+[41:00] The ones that they sent us are all they're all goat, you said? Pretty sure it's all goat salami, right? Yeah. Salumi. Goat goat loomy.
+
+[41:09] And so we're tasting what are we tasting here, Stas? That one is Pinocchio. You just had pepper. These things are good. These things are good.
+
+[41:18] Now, for those of you that don't know, Underground Meats recently had a Kickstarter of their own. Uh, and they have successfully funded it, and they are now gonna work on a hasset plan uh so that they can get Hassb certification, they can do challenge uh studies again, and then everyone can use it. So look for these guys to help anyone listening to create a hassle plan that's gonna allow them to um make their own salami business without having to go through all the expense. Which one's this one, Stu? That one is goat salami, just goat salami.
+
+[41:54] And then this one is sacion sec. That goat salami is good business. What do you think? I haven't had any yet. She had to take out take out her gum.
+
+[42:07] It's really good. Really good stuff. Alright. So I mean the obvious thing tasting it, I'm not gonna like torture you guys with sitting here eating. I'll wait until we're off mic torch and just sitting here eating uh delicious salumi.
+
+[42:26] Uh but you gave the web address, undergroundmeats.com. What undergroundmeats.com. Is that good? Yeah. So anyway, so the point is that um you taste it.
+
+[42:37] It's um, you know, most of them anyway, the ones that are intended are um a low acid product, which means a lot of times when you're having uh salumi or someone produces, they just try to uh they jack the acidity right away to kill off anything that's in it. And it also kind of covers up faults in the meat and faults in the curum, but from a very high acid kind of salami. You've had that happen before, Stas, right? When you eat someone's salami plate, it's just super high acid, lactic acid is. Uh and uh these um, you know, at least a lot of them from the ones I've tasted so far, don't taste like super high acid.
+
+[43:08] They're really taking a lot of care uh in it. Uh and you can you could tell that they really care about what they're doing. It's a delicious product. Stas is no longer gonna be listening because she's just pounding something. All right, all right.
+
+[43:20] All right, okay. Uh oh, we should talk about uh we should talk we have only a couple minutes left, I guess. We should talk about um the MoFad event. So MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink, uh is doing its so we have the puffing gun, which is kind of going underground right now, but they're uh we're rejiggering it again to be able to take it to schools, hopefully after the um winter break. They call it winter break now, it's winter break.
+
+[43:44] Oh, by the way, if you're out there, uh, we don't actually have a way to send you a uh do you know I was realizing this on the Sears all uh on the thing that we're doing? That um we said we were gonna send people cards for Christmas. We don't have their email addresses. They don't Kickstarter doesn't give you the email addresses until the Kickstarter is over. So I don't know how the heck we're gonna do that we gotta we gotta figure that out.
+
+[44:03] I was gonna say we could send you you know, you still have a couple days left to purchase a future Sears All as a as a Hanukkah present for somebody, so if you want to but we can't say we can't send you a card saying blah blah, we can put one up that people can print out. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[44:19] Well, this is a holiday card. Holiday card. Well, well, if someone buys it for Hanukkah, it's not a holiday card, it's a freaking Hanukkah card. If someone buys it for Christmas, it's a it's a and if someone has a generic holiday, then we will send them a generic holiday card. No?
+
+[44:30] Sure. No? Anyway. I mean, if you can be specific, be specific. If you cannot be specific, be generic.
+
+[44:37] No? Mm-hmm. Is that is that a bad thing? No, I well, we can do that. Okay.
+
+[44:42] Uh so uh we have uh we have a question. Oh museum. Museum food and drink. On Thursday, we have our first ever forum that we're running. Uh I'm gonna be the moderator.
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+[44:53] So uh, you know, Peter Kim, the uh director of the museum there specifically tells me that I'm not supposed to interject any actual personal opinions into this, which is gonna be f it's gonna be very difficult. I'm not used to not interjecting personal opinions. But uh the whole point is is that we are um we're trying to have a debates wi about food where we actually get both sides of the argument in and not just freak show hacks, but uh, you know, uh paper tigers and whatnot to fight each other, but real as smart uh uh smart as and as good a people as we can get from either side of a debate to come together in a moderated discussion uh in front of people that we're gonna record and then um later make available to everyone who can't be there. And the first and one that we're gonna tackle is the soda van. And do you have the information for that, Steph?
+
+[45:39] Yeah, I do. So it's this Thursday, uh December fifth at 6 30 p.m. at the CUNY School of Public Health. It's free online if you go to roundtable.mofad.org. And it's hosted by Dave, and there's um Joel Berg from the NYC Coalition Against Hunter Hunger, Nicholas Freudenberg from the NYC Food Policy Center, some guy named Park Wilde from Tufts University.
+
+[46:04] Some guy. Well, I mean it's Justin Wilson for the Center for Consumer Freedom and Lisa Young from NYU. So it should be a spirited uh debate and uh, you know, it uh some guy. Some guy, some place, tufts. Some guy.
+
+[46:21] It doesn't say his position. Yeah, alright, alright. Anyway, so that should be fun, and we'll report back uh and tell you how to uh tune in to listen to the thing that's covering it. Yeah, I'm gonna be there. Sweet.
+
+[46:32] So uh you excited, Joe? I am. I'm really excited. Should I should I get all frothy at the mouth and like uh like we have to ch I've never moderated, I have to choose a moderation style. Do I want to be like the total like mellow moderator?
+
+[46:44] Do I do I go like Tim Russell? I don't think you can be mellow in this situation. But I mean, what do you do? Tim Russert style? You remember Tim Russert?
+
+[46:51] Be like um Charlie Rose. Yeah, that'd be good. What about what about Piers Morgan? No, he gets involved. But yeah, but like that's the thing.
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+[47:00] Like that's that's about as least involved as I could get. It's probably kind of like a Piers Morgan kind of a situation. I would like to see you really try to not like people won't know either. You know what? Stas doesn't care about the actual quality of the event.
+
+[47:12] She only wants to see me squirm and not interject my opinion. That's the only thing she really cares. I know your opinion. Oh. I think you should show up in like an umpire baseball umpire uniform.
+
+[47:22] I take that route. I thought you were gonna say a yellow unitard. Well, that that would also be interesting. I don't dress in unitards anymore. Uh okay.
+
+[47:29] So uh we have that going on, and then we have to take a question in because uh I don't want to run out of time before we do it. Um here's the question uh from Zach in Pittsburgh. Uh I know you love stock. Please help me out. Some places say use roasted bones for a tasty stock.
+
+[47:46] Other places say use raw ingredients for a tasty stock. Obviously, they both can't be done at the same time, or can they? What's your take on the issue? Have a good one, Zach from Pittsburgh. Well, okay, look.
+
+[47:57] To me, they're just uh there's totally different, right? So if you uh a roasted uh meat, I mean white if you're making a white stock, you want to have uh I mean you need like maybe some bones in there for collagen, but you need some more meat to kind of uh bolster it. And by the way, on a non roasted uh bone thing, I consider if you cook a chicken, let's say, or or whatever, and you take the carcass from that cooked chicken and you throw that into a pot, that might as well be a white so a white stock as far as I'm concerned, non roasted, because you're not having any uh kind of brown on it. Now, in general, I don't know that I agree with this. I mean, they taste very different, but people tend to say that uh, well, look, it's obvious the browned ones, the roasted ones, have that brown roasted flavor to it, so you have that you know that flavor.
+
+[48:46] If that's the flavor you're looking for, then you need the roasted bones. Period. Uh now, if what you want is just clean meat flavor and you don't want all those browning things, then you can go for a uh for a white stock. I will say this. Most of the meat that we buy with before it's cooked is pretty flavorless.
+
+[49:06] And the reason it's flavorless is because it's usually well, it's not cooked. Uh, and it's also very kind of young. If you want to do a white stock, let's say a uh white broth of chicken, you're gonna want to get an old hen, a stewing hen, because that sucker, even if you don't roast it, is gonna have a delicious flavor. If I had a really delicious hen that you know was old, had been laying eggs its whole life and then stopped, you know, laying eggs so they popped it, and then you know, you have that thing to to cook. That guy, I probably wouldn't roast it because I would rather have the pure flavor of the chicken coming through.
+
+[49:41] If you're having a broiler chicken that's only a couple of weeks old and you have a bunch of carcasses of it, right, because you've used the meat for some other purpose because the meat's very tender because it's really too young and hasn't developed a lot of flavor, well then I would roast the hell out of those things because the fact of the matter is there's not much flavor going on in there. If you have uh, you know, you know, most veal we're roasting off all the veal stuff because veal really hasn't, I mean, I love veal, but veal really hasn't developed that much flavor yet. So you roast it and you get a lot kind of more flavor. If you have something that you don't necessarily if you're making a stock like pork, pork, you better cook that sucker. Like a raw pork stock smells kind of like raw.
+
+[50:18] Do you like a raw smell of raw raw pork stock stuff? I don't think it's we well really porky, but not necessarily in the way that like pleasing. Yeah. You know how there's like good porky and there's bad porky? And it never used to bother me except for when we went through remember we went through that period where we were boiling all those pork skins for making chicharolums and like all we smelled for days was the boiling pig skins.
+
+[50:42] So anything that reminds me of boiling pig skins, uh like anything that reminds me of like kind of also like I love tripe, but tripe before you prepare, like anything that kind of you know how they kind of have that bleachy weird thing from when they prepare like uh I love tripe though. But anyway, my point is is that like usually for a pork stuff, I'm gonna uh roast it off. Uh chicken, like young chickens roasted off. Old animals that have a lot of flavor, they can get away with being more purely the meat flavor. Now, yeah, you can always have the best of or the worst, depending on how you look at it, uh, of both worlds.
+
+[51:13] If you have if you have a like a really meaty uh meat, you can you can kind of mix and match, or you could get something in between. You could get the cleanliness of a white, uh a white stock, an unroasted stock, and then also uh get some of the brown stuff, just mix the two together. In general, if it is a bolstering effect you want, uh then I would use uh roasted. If it's a kind of meaty palette that you want to draw over and you don't want the extra notes of the roast, well then hell, don't roast it. Uh that's uh that's your choice.
+
+[51:48] Um anyway, I think you can do both. Uh especially here's one for you. If you want to do uh remi, so you what you do is you do an initial roasted stock uh in a in a pressure cooker quick and then do uh not a remi, sorry, a second stock. Uh then you could redo the stock with fresh meat, like you would for a classic kind of consume thing, only with more meat than you would for a classic consume, and then get the freshness of that meat out of it. That might be a good way to get the boast of both best of both worlds.
+
+[52:14] All right, listen, they're gonna kick me off the air, but on my way out, we got some good stuff coming up on the Sears all. If you tune into the Kickstarter, we're gonna put some stretch goals in. I think we're gonna give some extra screens as a stretch goal. Maybe we're talking about trying to include one of the clamps. We're gonna see if we can make it work.
+
+[52:28] We're gonna be talking about uh for all you Iwitani lovers out there, which is a type of torch, whether or not we're gonna be able to support the Iwatani uh in time for the Kickstarter to be over, maybe some European torches. Uh one more thing, I need your help. Tweet me in. I'm looking for a source for anyone who's from South America. Kamukamu, which is a delicious fruit that unfortunately also has a lot of antioxidant power, so everyone sells it as powdered kamukamu, which is gross.
+
+[52:53] I need kamukamu puree here in the U.S. If anyone has a source, let me know at Cooking Issues. Kamu Kamu Pure has to be red, has to be delicious, has to be puree cooking issues.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[53:31] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access. Regional Access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the Northeast. For more information, visit RegionalAccess.net. On behalf of our family of hosts, staff, and the millions of listeners who have tuned in since 2009, we want to wish you happy holidays and ask for your support as we launch our daily in house news coverage. Please consider making us a part of your end of year giving in 2013.
+
+[0:28] Your membership donation is tax deductible, and the best way to show you believe in our work and the importance of a free food focused media resource. Consider donating today at heritageradio network.org by clicking the donate button. Thanks for your support and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in the back of Well, no, I'm reverse P3.
+
+[1:00] I'm in the back of Robert's. In Bushwick, Brooklyn on a very snowy, snowy day here in New York joined uh with Joe in the booth. Hey Joe, how are you doing? I'm doing okay. How's it going, Dave?
+
+[1:08] I'm doing alright. Nastasha, the hammer lopez not here yet because uh well, Joe, is there a polite way of saying what the the name of that website is where you can check on the L train? Um is the L Train F dot com. Oh, there you go. It's the L TrainF.com.
+
+[1:22] If you go to that website, you'll find that yes, in fact it is, which is the train she takes. For those of you that have never been to the New York area and taken our lovely subways, uh the F train travels between kind of the hipster portions of Brooklyn and uh 14th Street in Manhattan, and that's what uh it's often F'd, right, Joe? It is pretty often F'd. It's highly trafficked, but there's only one line, so it gets pretty F'd. Yeah, it gets F'd up in the in the in the snow.
+
+[1:49] Although why would it get messed up in the snow? It's all underground. What the hell? Yeah. It's underground until you get to like East New York, so.
+
+[1:54] Oh, that's where it got messed up? I I I can only assume. Hey, look, I took an above ground train to get here and ain't no problems on the J line. The J is the most reliable train in New York, apparently. Wow.
+
+[2:05] Chill. You're just a font of knowledge. Uh uh MTA knowledge. They uh if they want to start putting me on the payroll, you know. You should get together with my son Booker.
+
+[2:14] He you know, he's uh uh a similar font of knowledge on MT, although very opinionated man hate the kid he hates the that's great. He hates the I don't know why he hates the day. He takes particular dislikes to certain trains based on uh the actual motors, the actual manufacturer of the motors used to propel them. He can tell by the sound of a subway car. He's like, that's Alston propulsion in that.
+
+[2:33] And he's like, I don't like that one so much. And he's like, that's it, you know? And it's like a sign of the cross. I think it's over, it's done. Uh so while we're waiting for uh Nastasia to show up and see how her day has been going.
+
+[2:44] Uh we got uh some uh folks here. We're doing a a a well why don't you why don't you go go go around the room here and we'll we'll ever introduce themselves and t tell them what we're doing today. Hi everybody. Um I'm Lara and I have an app called Days, which allows you to share a day's worth of photos and gifts at a time. It's a visual diary.
+
+[3:03] Not dazed like dazed and confused, like days like days of our lives. Like days of the week, days of our lives. Yeah. So this is uh project called Days in the Life, in which um I follow around and photograph a creative visionary like yourself, Dave, for a day of their life, just a normal Tuesday, and then we share that out with everyone. You'll be able to see a day in Dave's life.
+
+[3:25] Nice. Yeah. Rebecca, you want to introduce yourself here? Uh I'm Rebecca. I work with Dave and Nastasia uh over at Momofufuku and Booker and Docks.
+
+[3:34] So just hanging out for the day. Nice. Yeah, you can't come in. Hey Stas. Hello.
+
+[3:38] L train messed up, huh? And the no A C E messed up. Really? Yeah. That's weird.
+
+[3:43] Alright, so Nastasha's here and we're ready to begin in earnest. Calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128 for all your cooking and non-related cooking questions. And we're wait next Tuesday is what? Here Stas, you can climb over me.
+
+[3:56] Uh Christmas Eve. Ooh. Are we in town? I'm not are you? Well I mean uh Saskia in all fairness I told her to do it.
+
+[4:07] So uh the question is is is this our last show before uh the Christmas? Yeah. So we're not gonna do the Christmas Eve show? Unless you want to do it by yourself. Wow.
+
+[4:14] I don't think you can Dave. Oh we're shut down? We're shut down. All right. This is the Christmas Eve show.
+
+[4:20] This is the Christmas show. All right. So uh Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. And that means this is our last opportunity on the Cooking Issue show to uh to plug the Sears all.
+
+[4:31] Sears all. Go to Kickstarter dot com. Search Sears all and for sixty five dollars you too can be one of the first people to own this magnificent handheld broiler that we're making, right? How's that going? Good.
+
+[4:43] We're gonna send out the uh holiday cards right and what's it gonna say? Sears and greetings. That's how Piper is and for for those of you that tuned in before you know that Piper Christian king of puns uh has done the holiday card uh verbiage not the not the art but the verbiage and it's Sears and Sears's greetings. And we're mailing those out when? Today?
+
+[5:04] Tomorrow? Tomorrow morning yeah that's we all right so to some questions uh from uh Brad Spahn we got in on the Twitter uh recommendations for a first low temperature book books that have some veg recipes especially are appreciated for ours is a mixed household. It's tough. I mean, um, there's really only pub in published book land that's you know dedicated, there's uh I mean the only one I can really think of is the under pressure, the um the one that was put out by Keller and Ruhlman, and there's a some good veg recipes in there, but you know, modernist cuisine, uh, I'm sure their at home one has some, but that's kind of a more of a hefty tone. Uh look, the recipes are gonna be fine in the in the under pressure thing.
+
+[5:44] I disagree with uh some of their points, specifically with some of their safety standpoints, but there's a lot of stuff online uh as well, and it's just ever increasing the amount of uh amount of stuff. You guys seen any newer low temperature uh by the way, the reason I everyone Rebecca was like, I don't know how to introduce myself. I was like, everyone who's in the studio, boom, like you're here, I'm gonna call you out. So you guys do you guys know any like uh good we haven't done like does Lucky Peach done anything on that? It's just as it comes, right?
+
+[6:09] Most of the stuff that you know I work with, it's kind of as it comes, not specifically um, you know, low temp or not. I'm trying to think of another one. There's I mean, first book. So I'm assuming you don't want to spend like 158 dollars. Like, you know, the one Roka one is still a classic, which came out although Bruno Gusseau, the kind of grandfather of uh low temp one of the grandfathers of low temp cooking, detests that book because he says the temperatures are too low.
+
+[6:30] In fact, he says that it that it's a book that attempts to poison people. Uh it's a great chef's book. But I would get the under pressure. Um, you know, I have done the ideas in food book have a lot of low temp in it? I don't know.
+
+[6:41] I don't know. And you know what? And go to chefsteps.com where they can put a lot of content online. It's not in the form of a cookbook, but they have a lot of content online uh for you to check out. That's uh put out by uh our good friends like Michael Mackin, Chris Young, and uh who else is on that one?
+
+[6:56] Grant, right? Anyway. Um, and obviously chefs who use a lot of low temperature work like Grant and stuff, I'm you know, I'm sure they have a lot of stuff in their books on it. Anyway, sorry, I could not be of more help. Is that not very I feel like I wasn't very helpful.
+
+[7:08] Yeah, like Style's like, like I don't care. I don't give a I don't give a rat's ass interesting. Okay. Uh also we got in uh do you remember those uh you remember those um uh those uh cocktail university things we did? Those videos we did?
+
+[7:14] So uh uh delete uh Delip Rao uh Leapers 500 wrote in and says the saxophone during the cocktail university segment sounds like Michelle Pfeiffer and Sean Connery stopped off for a drink in the Russia house. Be like, I mean, like I that's good, I guess, right? I mean, like, I wouldn't mind if Sean Connery and Michelle Pfeiffer came and stopped by. I would make them a drink. That's great.
+
+[7:40] I want to be there. Yeah, I like those guys. I mean, I don't really I don't know them. I like the theory of them. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:46] Yeah, I mean, I've never met, I mean, like Sean Connery kind of like Can we find that? Can you find that, Joe? The saxophone and the whatever one. Yeah, I'll be able to do that. I'll do a little searching around.
+
+[7:55] Joe, speaking of, uh, I didn't bring it up before because we always waiting for Stas, so I was a little pre you know uh preoccupied, but what's up with Jack and the porn music? You're trying to get people to donate money for the holiday seasons to the Heritage Radio Network using fundamentally porn music. Well, sometimes you have to appeal to not people's like hearts and minds, but to you know, their senses and in other ways if you really want them to give you what they want, right? Yeah, but I mean like it's marketing. I mean like but eight yeah, okay.
+
+[8:21] So like it's a known thing's like we're going to like use uh we're gonna use 70s style porn music. No, I think it's just that's that's Jack's personal taste. Um there was really no marketing scheme here. Um, but I will pass the review along to Jack. I don't know, I'm not saying it in a negative way, by the way.
+
+[8:38] Can we play it again real quick? Because Stas didn't get to hear it. Can we play the Okay, yeah, let me boot that up. Yeah, let's play. Well, like it'll just come on in in in a minute here.
+
+[8:45] Well, he's gonna be a little bit more than a little bit. On behalf of our family of hosts, staff, and the millions of listeners who have tuned in since 2009. We want to win. It's got a little bit more of a hip-hop vibe. Please consider making us a part of your end.
+
+[9:01] It sounds like the intro to a very white song. Maybe that's what I was thinking. Not like an actual berry white song, but like the intro to a very white song. Something you'd do. Yeah, it's gonna go in to slow your roll after that or something like that.
+
+[9:15] Yeah, Jack should have recorded that with all of his vocals pitched down so he sounds like Barry White. Oh my god. Holy crap, can we do that? Then we would have had the money rolling in. Oh my god.
+
+[9:24] Well, if Phil Bravo, if he would ever come in here and do it, like he could do the Barry White voice. A little goofier than Barry White. Yeah, Barry White, rest in peace with your magnificent voice. Okay. Um, you know, did a uh a presentation at the Food and Wine uh thing for all of Annex publishing.
+
+[9:42] We'll talk about it a little bit, right? Because it's kind of interesting. So uh if for those of you that, you know, I don't know, I don't know, have heard me spiel about this before. Uh I spent a lot of time thinking about um cocktails that other people don't spend a lot of time necessarily thinking about or didn't gin and tonic. Apparently everyone's thinking about gin and tonics quite a lot now.
+
+[9:58] Like it's a huge, huge thing would take. But I've been working fairly consistently on the gin and tonic for, you know, almost a decade now. Uh and actually it figures in the co like the last chapter of the cocktail book is all just gin and tonic and kind of you know, like full riff on the gin and tonic. And what's that? That's actual people.
+
+[10:15] That's actual children laughing at it. I thought that was like some sort of special effect that uh that uh they're playing. Anyway, so uh the concept is what do you do after you do the normal uh gin and tonic? And the and the my new idea, and this is what we were presenting at food and wine, is to make a gin and tonic that doesn't have uh tonic in it, right? It just hits the same flavor notes as a gin and tonic.
+
+[10:34] So uh, and in fact, we made one that doesn't even have gin in it, but it tastes kind of like a gin and tonic with a little bit of a more of a holiday note, a little peppery note. Stas hates it because she hates junipery flavors, and then this has a definite juniper flavor in it. So uh, so what are the notes we have to hit? You have to get the resin y pine from the juniper and the gin, plus you know, some other botanicals that are in it. You need uh uh acidity, you need uh bitterness, right?
+
+[10:57] I add a little salt, uh, and so and you need sugar, right? For the tongue. So we have almost all that we in one ingredient, schizandra, which is the five-flavor berry. Oh, they also make omiji tea out of it in Korea. So it's Korean, Chinese, uh, and also to a certain extent, uh Rush Russian, where they call it limonique.
+
+[11:14] Limonique, or something like that. Say it with a crazy accent. Come on, Stas. Well, why do you never you never hook me up with the accent? Because I can't do it.
+
+[11:20] What do you mean? I've heard you do it a million times. Stas is half Russian. I have never done it. Uh oh, yeah?
+
+[11:26] How does your mom how does your mom call it? Oh, I'm not gonna say anything. Alright, so you're lying to me. Wait, here's the sex. Thank God.
+
+[11:37] Oh yeah. Hey, I'm Dave Arnold from Booker. You are Dave Arnold, aren't you? I am Dave Arnold from Booker and Dax. Alright.
+
+[11:45] Uh, but like I feel like if I had known they're gonna play that, I wouldn't have gone to such like a high-pitched squeal going in. I would have I would have started, you know, you know, started a little lower. They're like, hi, I'm Dave Arnold. Uh okay. So uh so we use this uh schizandra berry, which uh you can you you have to order it uh if you order it online, we got it on Amazon, and it's kind of fresher if you like the local spice shop sell it, it's really desiccated, it's hard to get good flavor out of it.
+
+[12:08] But it has all of those notes. It is itself sour, and they call it five flavor berry because it has you know it's is a little bit salty, it's pungent, it's uh it's aromatic. I mean, they they it's got it's got all of those flavors in it. So what we did is we and it's the easiest drink in the world to make. We blended uh a small amount of schizandra berry with vodka because it brings its own gin flavors to it.
+
+[12:28] Uh then to augment the acidity and tone down the uh the kind of juniper notes on it. We also uh made some straight in water and then combine those two to produce this cassandra. So we didn't add any acid, we didn't add any gin, we didn't add any quinine for bitterness, it was all right there in you know, in that one thing. We did have to add a little sugar, and then we carbonated. It's also a cool kind of pink color.
+
+[12:50] You like the color anyway, right? So yeah, it's a good color. I mean, if you liked gin, you think you would have liked it? Yeah. Yeah, but it's like gin.
+
+[12:56] The only thing it's not in a normal gin and tonic that is here is it's a little more Christmassy because it's got a little more of a of a of a pine note to it, even though it's not a pine tree. Uh it's not a conifer at all, Scassandra. It's uh it's uh although it is very early to it's a it's from a basal angiosperm line, so it's closer to the whatever anyway. Uh but uh it uh yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. So anyway, schizandra, that's what we were doing this week, right?
+
+[13:17] Is that pretty much all we did is interesting, other than work on the Searsol, Searsol, Searsol. Yeah, I think so. Yeah? Yeah, all right. We're also making a Santa.
+
+[13:25] Oh Jesus. So Stas and Piper have a side business going on uh with vomiting wine zombies, right? So uh I did you buy winezombie.com yet? It's taken, it's actual wine company. Called Wine Zombie?
+
+[13:39] Did you buy pukingsanta.com? So the wine zombie sits there and vomits, and for two years this is all Stas and Piper. Literally, like you think they're sitting around thinking about cooking problems? No, it's like every day, it's a zombie, zombie, zombie. It's like I know that like you know how like like like in some people's head, like there's like a like one when I look one of the first car, the first car I ever bought was uh was a 76 Pontiac Bonneville, right?
+
+[14:01] And uh a James Brown tape got stuck in the tape deck because it's back in the tape deck days, you know, in the 90s, and it was just James Brown all the time. So whenever I was driving, all I would listen to is James Brown constantly. And I feel that you and Piper, your mind is like that, but instead of James Brown, it's wine zombie. You're like wine zombie, wine. The people are you and and Piper.
+
+[14:23] I want one too. Thank you. Oh, geez. Oh my god. So the wine zombie is a zombie mask with a pump in it that pukes wine uh on a you know, continually puke continuously pukes wine like a fountain.
+
+[14:35] And it's just sitting there like you know, puking. And so then t this year, for they're like, you know what the problem is the wine zombie is really only uh it's a Halloween thing. How do we stretch this? How do we stretch the wine zombie? How do we do it?
+
+[14:48] How do we make some more money off this off this the best idea we ever had, the wine zombie? And here's how. You buy a five-foot, by the way, five foot Santa's are creepy. Let me just tell you something. Five foot Santa is creepy.
+
+[14:58] You buy a five-foot Santa, what is it? Puppet? What is it? What is that thing? It's like a like it's a Santa Matronic.
+
+[15:05] Oh, so strong! Santa Matronic. Oh, it's so strong. Oh my god. Did you make that up or did they say that in the box?
+
+[15:13] Oh my gosh, such strength. Such strength of punning. Uh so you buy this thing, and then you stick the same pump that you have in the wine zombie into the Santa, and you have Santa puking, and then you get your friend Phil Bravo to be like, Ho hoo with the little with the little voice box that's in Santa. Right. The problem is is that they're not really willing to take it far enough.
+
+[15:35] So Santa is standing upright and the pump, he dribbles like wine all over his beard, which is freaking gross. No one wants to. And so instead of, and I want your two feedback on this, instead of doing like the right thing, the honorable thing, and make Santa bend over while he's puking so that the poor guy can not spill the stuff all over his beard. And by the way, a puke on beard is nasty. I don't want to no one wants to drink that stuff.
+
+[15:56] They're having it come out of his pipe. And it's like if it comes out of his pipe, first of all, I don't really know that it's ethical to have a smoking Santa anymore, like at all. Like, but like secondly, like, you know, if you're if if it's coming out of his pipe, it's not puked. Nobody pukes out of their pipe. Nobody pukes out of their pipe.
+
+[16:13] It's a small one. And they're like, and they're like, what and they're like, what about Popeye? I'm like, when's the last time you saw Popeye puke at all? I already gave the party that were giving it to the circumference of Santa, so he can't. No, you bend his legs back sleek and pop it.
+
+[16:26] No, it like a fountain. No one's gonna understand the puking. They're gonna be, oh, Santa is a Santa fountain. It's not like a projectile situation, though. It's like no, but no, but my point is my point is that no, look, look, if you just had the Santa with the pipe, it's not gonna be right.
+
+[16:42] Yeah, you're a liar liar. It is water. Yeah, they have their own whatever. You mean water-based. You mean non-alcoholic.
+
+[16:49] Or waterholic. Yeah. Or water. Water. Can you drink the fake vomit?
+
+[16:53] Yeah, it's all food grade. So you could just put like a bunch of glasses near there. Yeah, it's a good thing. That's the way that they did it with the wine zombie. Yeah.
+
+[17:00] That's the way they did it with the wine zombie. Like imagine a chocolate fountain, but instead of puking zombie, or in this case Santa, but I'm saying you just bend his butt back, tilt him forward so he pukes down into the bowl so there's no beard hit. Because if you if you see a pipe, if you see liquid coming out of your pipe, your first thought is it puke. But then you have Phil Bravo's voice making puking noises, and anybody that's ever puked knows that the pipe is popping out of the mouth. No, not even Popeye is keeping the pipe in his mouth as he's puking.
+
+[17:26] How do you clench your teeth around a pipe and keep the pipe in your mouth while you're blowing chunks out? I think you should have done some research during SantaCon. You could have really like found some good models. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:36] Yeah. You know what? Uh and this is a thing, I mean, no offense to the SantaCon people, but you know, I have two kids, and like one of them is still a believer. I'm gonna have. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:44] And it's not cool to have Santa puking on the ground. It's not even a what is it? I'll send the video. We'll watch it at lunch. Alright, alright.
+
+[17:56] So anyway, you can call in or tweet in with your thoughts on puking Santa. But Phil's Bravo, Phil Bravo's voice is quite good. It's quite good. Maybe can you just make can you call in and do the voice? Yeah, let's see if you can.
+
+[18:07] Let's get calling and do the voice. Alright, cool. Now we have uh an actual normal question in. Uh from M. Uh Deer cooking issues.
+
+[18:14] I am a lover of most all foods. I am a size 12 plus model. So eating is really a part of my job. Because of health reasons, I've really had to cut out a ton of foods. I get really bad heartburn, which has been tearing up the lining of my esophagus.
+
+[18:28] Uh I need to c uh basically cut out all spicy, citric, high fat, and carbonated food and beverages out of my diet. Rough. That's rough, right? That's that so she says the the the worst things are any kind of pepper, which I recently have just grown to love using, chocolate, that s sucks to give that up. Citric fruits, uh or basically any fruits other than apples.
+
+[18:48] Although why not apples? Apples are can be highly acidic. Well we'll get into this in a minute. Acidic vegetables such as tomatoes, onions, etc. High fat meats.
+
+[18:55] I've been eating a lot of wild salmon, although wild salmon very high in fat. It it's interesting. I I've done some research and uh chicken breasts. I mean, that's why wild sal that's why salmon that's why people like salmon. Salmon in general is a high fat fish.
+
+[19:04] You can get leaner cuts of salmon, but usually the more money you spend on salmon, the higher the fat uh content is. That's why people like the like a lot of the cold water salmons that are caught in the you know in the rivers up there in Alaska and Canada and all that, because they're fairly high fat. Um in fact, like the you can literally just look at the price range of salmons, wild caught salmons, and they correlate with either with marketing like copper, uh whatever, but but a lot of times it'll correlate with fat content. Anyways, um and you have to look at smoked salmon. That's some fatty stuff.
+
+[19:33] And I'm saying this in a great way. It's a good way. Fat, you know, good product. I like fat a lot. Anyway, uh spices like curry or anything that is intense in flavor.
+
+[19:41] Uh I now eat a lot of easy to process grains like couscous and quinoa and brown rice. Quinoa, like uh I still can't wrap my head around the word quinoa. Anyone else have a problem with that? That's impossible to spell. Yeah, right?
+
+[19:54] Virtually impossible. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right? It's not just me. If you go on YouTube, they do uh these pronunciation videos and they do one for quinoa and they call it Kenokanoa, which is my Kano Kanoa.
+
+[20:05] I just pronounced everything wrong. I tell you, if you called it canocanoa, like that's like that sounds like some sort of like awesome Samoan thing. Canoca Noah. Conocanoa. Or like, or like monola macadamia's monala, macadamia nut.
+
+[20:16] I love that uh I mean that's I don't really know what the accent is over there. But like but like mono monolae is like an awesome word. So cooking cooking, say it again? That's so much better than Kokomo. Remember that crappy Beach Boy song?
+
+[20:29] Stas a lot harder to pronounce if it was canocanoa within the Kokomo song. Yeah. Cano Kanoa. Right? Stas once hung out with the Beach Boys lawyers at uh she was at uh she was at in Nathan Miravold's lab uh for the modernist because one of the monitorers' cuisine dinners with Mark Ladner, and they were sitting next to the lawyer for the Beach Boys.
+
+[20:49] Apparently, like they they aren't like happy go lucky fellows. We were also sitting next to the more interesting that Google founder who cheated on his wife with a small Asian woman who worked with him. I feel that this is not maybe safe for well. This is now grilled to me. The uh the uh opinions of Nastasha are Nastasha's alone and do not represent cooking issues or the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[21:12] Uh the uh so but you said he was also wearing the glasses. For the first time, yeah. It was early. It was like a couple of years ago, it was before anyone else had the glasses. It was a prototype.
+
+[21:21] And what was your thoughts on the glasses? Stupid. That's why we call it the hammer. That's why we call it a hammer. So it's like, well, better or worse than a segue.
+
+[21:31] Oh, way better. Better, yeah. I don't know. I love a good segue. I've never been on one, but I'm not a good one.
+
+[21:38] Do you like seeing the tours, the segue tours? People with hold like the head segue goes like this and all the other segue stuff. I get irritated when I see people wearing Google glasses, but not when I see people on a segue. You ever seen you ever seen someone double up? No.
+
+[21:50] I feel like that would be the perfect combination. I feel like they do that at the Google office. Yeah. They Google up and segue up. Yeah.
+
+[21:56] No, Google at the Google office I did a demo at Google and they have these kind of awesome Google colored bikes, and the idea is that no one's gonna steal the Google Google colored bike. I was like, I want a Google colored bike. And like they like you can just bike around all over the campus there. The Google campus is in I never been to the one here in uh in the New York, but the one um in California is freaking amazing. Yeah.
+
+[22:15] It's like it's like it's like pre-bust awesome, like volleyball courts and like food and everything. I've been to the one here. Google's one of our investors. We love you, Google. Yeah.
+
+[22:25] How's the how's the campus here? It's good. So I think you you should really go there. That's some of like some of the best features, I think, are are the food programs that they have there. Like they have like five.
+
+[22:35] What? They want any demos. Yeah, I mean they have like five um, what is it called? The like food carts and like trucks inside. They're parked inside of Google.
+
+[22:44] Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I have a friend who works there, and I'm trying to get invited to lunch. So I've I've eaten at the Google one in uh in and I spoke to their head chef, and uh they have an very interesting program. It's pretty cool. I mean, I mean, they should have interesting stuff.
+
+[22:57] They got more money than God. Okay. Uh anyway, back to M's question. I now eat a lot of easy to Okay, uh, like couscous and quinoa and brown rice. I loved using Near East uh boxes, and for those of you that don't know, Neriast is a brand of uh like boxed um Middle East.
+
+[23:11] Middle East green, like couscous, blue brown rice, little with little flavor flavors. Flavor, flavor packets. And uh I loved using them, but they have a lot of garlic and citric acid and fats. Now, uh Em, I we looked at some of the labels for the uh for that and then and we didn't have uh Joe, we got a caller, but let me let me finish at least the question before I go to the answer. Yeah, does it?
+
+[23:35] Is it Phil? Um, I'm not sure. Let's find out if it's Phil. Okay. So uh now I looked at the labels for these and they don't like they didn't seem that high in uh the ones I looked at didn't aren't high in citric acid.
+
+[23:46] You gotta remember also, we'll get we'll get into pH in it in a in a minute. I'm also looking for an alternative cooking fat as opposed to olive oil. And it we're all like, do you not like olive oil? If you don't like olive oil, if you don't want the flavor, I mean just go with something that has a high smoke point like uh, you know, um like grapeseed or uh, you know, uh or canola, uh or something like that. Although I I at home almost I gotta be honest, I exclusively use olive oil.
+
+[24:09] I use olive oil and then I have uh like real honest to god fry fat from my deep fried fryer. But I I I don't stock a lot of different oils except for flavoring oils. You can keep a lot of different flavoring oils around. You got what do you use to cook with stuff? Olive oil.
+
+[24:21] Exclusively? Or butter. Butter. Butter. Uh I eat uh uh I want to buy it.
+
+[24:28] Can we get the website polyunsaturated a hole? I want that. Anyway, uh I'm also looking for okay. Uh I eat a lot of different beans because they're good for my heartburn, but I don't want to translate this all into gas, which I've never had a problem with before, so I'm looking for an alternative for a non-meat uh protein uh that has a uh low pH. Presumably you mean low low acid, so high pH.
+
+[24:52] Now let me tell you something. Also, if you increase the gas you have, I was doing some research on GERD, gastroesophageal reflux uh disease, and uh apparently downstream gas can actually cause a your esophagus uh to open up a little bit. So you definitely don't want to add gassiness to the problem because it can it might uh potentially increase your symptoms. Anyway, my questions are what kind of mild spices are there to flavor rice, grains, chicken, and fish? I I use dill a lot and turmeric and cumin.
+
+[25:19] You know, dill is delicious. Nils Norrin, uh you know, my my sweetest chef friend, he loves the dill because he's Swedish, and if you don't love dill, that they put you on the top of the mountain and let you freeze to death. Uh Wile Dufresne hates the dill. Did you know that? No.
+
+[25:31] That's a little secret that I probably shouldn't have told you. Wiley Dufrein does not like dill. You heard it here first, unless you are wily. Uh uh also I was heard uh uh okay, uh alternative cooking fats, uh the alternative cooking fats without being processed, blah, blah, blah. Okay, and good marinades for meat uh and hates soy sauce.
+
+[25:47] How do you hate on soy sauce? How do you hate on soy sauce? What about miso? We were having this conversation before. If you hate soy sauce, does that mean you necessarily hate miso?
+
+[25:55] No, because I don't care for soy sauce particularly. As a marinade, it works for me, but like I don't use it in when I eat sushi even. And I like miso. Right. So miso makes an excellent marinade and curing device, right?
+
+[26:06] You have miso and uh some other liquids, preferably probably for you, not too acidic uh liquids, and um and uh and you know, some sugar, maybe in there to like counter the saltiness of it. But miso might be a good thing. We'll we'll get into this in a second. I'm gonna go through your question and then I'll answer it after the caller. Uh I like to keep natural and organic.
+
+[26:24] I know that uh low-fat diet is gonna make me lose weight, but I need to retain my curves by eating a good amount of mild food. I feel like I just haven't been eating enough because I don't know how to uh what to do to make it taste good uh or eating and effing up my diet by getting too much fat on the plate because fat can increase it the uh symptoms of uh uh GERD gastrointest uh gastroesophageal reflux. Help M. Alright, so we're gonna get to the answers. And I love that someone's like, I can't eat enough anymore because I can't eat the foods that I want.
+
+[26:50] This is like an interesting question. We never had a question like this before. But right now, caller, you're on the air. Boom. Hi Dave.
+
+[26:55] How you doing? Uh this is Benzinger from Indianapolis. How you doing? Doing okay. How about yourself?
+
+[27:01] All right. Uh I just got back on a uh from a three-month trip to the country of Lebanon. Oh, nice. And uh and um I ran into something that I was curious about. They they store this stuff in the fridge.
+
+[27:14] You know how like uh garlic oil is not good because of botulism. Sure. They have a spread called tum, which is uh the Arabic word for garlic. And it's literally raw garlic, oil, salt, pepper, and lemon juice. Why is that safe?
+
+[27:27] Is it because of solids content or is it because of something else that I'm not sure of? Because they store it in the fridge for like weeks, two weeks. Is it a puree? It is. Okay.
+
+[27:38] So and how much uh salt and how much lemon juice? Uh salt of flavor, lemon juice to turn it white. It's uh it's uh it's a yellowish color. You add this uh you add the lemon juice and it turns it a a nice white color. Right.
+
+[27:50] So both the flavor. But both the acidity and the salt are gonna inhibit the botulism, right? So I mean the the issue with uh with uh garlic oil specifically is and is it heated or not heated? It's not heated. Right.
+
+[28:07] So when you garlic grows in the ground. So, you know, um botulism is ubiquitous and uh meaning it it's everywhere, and it it gets on the garlic, and you can't kill botulism by normal heating. So, you know, the the idea that you that you put garlic into oil, like a whole clove or something, and then maybe even heat the oil, killing all the other competitive bacteria that are on the garlic, uh like lactic acid bacteria or things like this, uh, and but not killing the spores for things like botulism, and then you have it sealed from the air by the oil, but it locally the garlic is still has a fairly high water activity because the garlic cloves are entire or the pieces of garlic are entire. And so you can have uh botulism growth on the actual garlic. Like that's the issue, right?
+
+[28:50] So uh if you were to um add if you were to make a puree with acidity and with salt, assuming the levels were high enough, you would um be you would be um inhibiting the growth of botulism. Secondly, if you're not heating it, there are probably other bacteria like lactic acid bacteria that are good competitors against things like botulism, causing uh it did it taste as uh did you notice any kind of lactic flavor? Was there any fermentation going on in it? I d I didn't notice any, no. It's uh because usually they make it fresh, but if there's any extra left over, they they put it in the fridge.
+
+[29:25] Right. Um so botulism is gonna grow very slowly in the fridge anyway, and if there are other bacteria present that haven't been killed by a pasteurization step, then they probably provide good um competition for the for the botulism so that it doesn't grow, plus the salt and the uh fact that it and the lemon juice and the fact that it's been pureeed so that the acidity and the salt are in uh fun you know close contact with all the water-bearing parts of the stuff, because they're not gonna be in the oil because they don't like to live with oil. So all of the lemon juice and all the salt are gonna be chilling out with the with the garlic, which is the water phase stuff anyway. And so you probably get the maximum preservation from all three of those things, making it you know, not making it not kill you. Right, okay.
+
+[30:07] Now I don't know what the exact levels are to have it not kill you, but like all of those things are are very helpful. If you were gonna make it at home, you could probably put pink salt in if you really want to make sure botulism is not gonna grow. Okay. Would that affect the flavor quite a bit though? Pink salt?
+
+[30:21] No. Yeah. No, I mean the the flavor from uh curing on pink salt is more a reaction, I think, with the meat. I don't think it's gonna uh uh I don't think it'll affect, but like you uh I mean it's it's uh I'm always a little loath to give out recommendations that are safety recommendations without like actually researching the the the documents on it to make sure that I have the levels right. But um you also gotta remember botulism grows really slowly in the in the fridge.
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+[30:48] And it is it usually is it is it like put on bread raw or is it or is it used in cooking? It's put on bread raw. I mean I the it's uh it's a really good product. I'll I'll mix it into salad dressings and things like that if I have extra. But uh usually what they do is they just put it on with like pickles and tomatoes and sort of uh and and have sandwiches with it.
+
+[31:10] Yeah. Yeah. So uh I mean that that's also the reason oil and garlic is so bad uh normally is because typically people won't use it quickly because it's not like a spread, you know what I mean? So it'll be sitting on the shelf for a long time. Right.
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+[31:23] That's smooth thing. Yeah. So it takes uh how how long does it typically take for uh uh garlic oil to become dangerous? I don't know. I don't I don't trust like there there's some research out there, and if you talk to the food safety experts there, there they they lead you to believe that the growth of botulism can be much faster than you think.
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+[31:38] So uh if something is inherently unsafe, it's like I'll just use it fresh or or not, you know what I mean? Because who wants to mess around with that? The good thing about botulism, if there is a good thing about botulism, uh, is that uh you know, is that you can destroy it with heat. So if you're using something that is possible possibly contaminated with botulism, but you heat it thoroughly, the uh the toxin um from uh botulism is um is heat labile, so it will break down. Um typically the way people die is they'll eat a bunch of uh home canned mushrooms, which are a low acid food.
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+[32:11] You know what I mean? Uh you know, they're not getting it from tomatoes or you know, things like this that have a high acidity. So the acidity and the salt are really helping you out here. Okay, thanks a lot, dude. All right, good luck with the tomb.
+
+[32:23] All right, thank you. All right. So uh back to this. So uh uh M, look, good news for you, good news for you on the carbonated beverage front. I looked up uh an article called the effects of carbonated andor caffeinated beverages on acid and non-acid reflux and symptomatic perception among different phenotypes of GERD by Jose Remis uh Trochi and uh Amyra A.
+
+[32:43] Azimar uh Jacome from when is this from? 2012 from Gastroentwa uh gastroenterology uh volume 142, issue five, uh May 2012. So here's a here's an interesting thing. Uh caffeine does in fact increase the amount of time that your esophagus spends at a pH below four. So it does increase uh the damage that's gonna happen to your esophagus based on that.
+
+[33:07] But carbonation, although it does increase uh your burping, and so you think that it's actually going to cause an increase in acid uh in your esophagus, their research indicates that in fact it has no effect. So unless you know that you are specifically have a problem with it, uh, and there's all different kinds of uh of GERD, but uh carbonation, you might not have to give it up, which be I would be very thankful to not have to give up carbonation. And remember, like, yes, it does form an acid, CO2 is forms carbonic acid, but it's not very, very acidic, right? Then another thing on another it's interesting articles I was looking up, the effects of dietary fat and calorie density on esophageal acid exposure and reflux symptoms from 2006. What's interesting is, uh, and you might not uh know this, uh, but when they're doing the research on it, um, it shows that increasing the fat content increases the symptoms that you feel, right?
+
+[34:05] But they did not the actual damage, the actual it's actual caloric density that is determining uh like how much uh the actual uh pH of your uh of your of your esophagus is gonna go down. Whereas your sim your your mental symptomatic uh perception of it is going to increase with fat, which I thought was really interesting. Of course, unfortunately, fat and cal and and calorie density go kind of uh hand in hand. Uh I also uh looked up um the issue with the capsacation. Uh I assume you meant spicy peppers, not black pepper, although I don't know.
+
+[34:40] Uh and yeah, that looks like that's gonna be a problem. I was hoping that I could get some data for you that shows that maybe you have a way out that you can eat some of these foods, but other than carbonation, I don't really have any good news there for you. Um on the so let's go backwards on your questions. Uh on the marinades for meats, I would try miso. Um it's it's gonna be good.
+
+[34:59] The problem here really fundamentally is that most marinades, it depends on why you're marinating a meat. If you're marinating meat for flavor, then what's up? Okay, one more second. If you're marinating feet for flavor, uh, that's one thing, but acids and marinades are actually there to break down proteins, things like buttermilk. And so uh that you're not going to get that kind of tenderizing effect.
+
+[35:20] But what I would suggest, if you want to just marinate for flavor, then you could do things like misos, like salts uh that don't have so much of a tenderization effect, but just go get yourself uh an immersion circulator so you can do low temperature cooking. If you do low temperature cooking on that stuff, you can get the textures that you like or that you you know feel are enhanced by marinades without having to actually fundamentally alter the muscle structure uh of the meats that you're cooking. Uh all right, hold on, and then we'll get back to um we'll get back to some alternate stuff in a your uh the other questions in a minute. But caller, you're on the air. Hi, this is uh Patrick calling from Brooklyn.
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+[35:53] Hey Patrick, how you doing? Good, good. I have a question, a sort of a another sort of food safety question that um I cook about eight lobsters, uh parsing them in September. Uh froze everything. I've eaten everything, including the stock, but what I I took out the tamale from the eight lobsters, mixed it, whipped it with butter, and then froze it.
+
+[36:19] And it's but it's a pretty amazing food stuff. It sort of tastes like monk fish liver or uh sea urchin, you know, together with the butter. Right. It's been so good that I've been uh waiting to use it for the right occasion, and I'm starting to become paranoid that keeping something like a uh parcook lobster liver mixed with butter in the freezer may not be safe over the long term. Well, it's in the freezer.
+
+[36:44] It's safe. The question is, what's the quality gonna be like? And so when you have uh water in contact, remember, butter already butter keeps well in the freezer, but butter's water content is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20, but it it they're kind of like kind of locked in um in my cells there. So but when you have uh a you know uh a fat and a um and a product there, especially one that contains its own enzymes and whatnot, assuming you haven't wiped them all out, is that uh you could get rancidity. So rancidity is not gonna hurt anybody, but it might be a quality issue.
+
+[37:20] And a lot of a lot of like how rancid it's gonna go depends on um depends on, and that's why a lot of times things like frozen cured pork becomes an issue because there's a salt in it already, right? But and and you freezing it and you expect it to stay good, but in fact the quality goes down, right? Because unless you're freezing at extremely low temperatures, what ends up happening is is that all of the water soluble stuff becomes concentrated in a in a very concentrated water phase in the unfrozen part of your food and enzymatic reactions and rancidity and all those kinds of things still going on. None of these are safety issues, okay. Yeah, just flavor.
+
+[37:58] So what I would do is I would I would like uh I would unwrap uh uh uh you know, before you have the big party where you're gonna bust out the awesomeness, right? Do you have a vac how do you how do you pack this stuff in zips and vac? What do you have? I have it in a crop that's in then it's in a uh a ziploc that I basically took all the water, uh, the air out of with the uh the we with your with the with the dunking method. So it's basically here, there's very little contact with air.
+
+[38:25] That's very good, right? So you have a very good chance that it's still good, right? Because air is your mortal enemy with these sorts of things for a variety of reasons. You want contact of the bag to prevent freezer burn. Not that it's as huge an issue with you because you're gonna probably break it all down anyway.
+
+[38:39] But what I would do is I would crack the I would take out the zippy, I wouldn't I would just crack a piece off of the edge of it. And the worst of it's going to be uh uh where the air interface is on the zippy anyway. So like the rest of the quality is going to be higher than that. If you chip off a little piece of it and taste it, you know, you know, in the like the woo the week before you're going to use it, you know, and and then keep the other stuff frozen solid, then you should get a good uh indicator of the quality. You don't want to bring it up and down a bunch of times because that's going to ruin the quality the more you freeze thaw, freeze thaw, freeze thaw but that should you know as long as you just pull it out crack off a little piece with like a you know a knife, you know, just don't cut yourself.
+
+[39:16] And uh you should be able to get a firm indicator of quality. But from a safety point I would not worry. Okay, great. Well that I mean this is a pretty awesome ingredient. So I'm just I've been I've been waiting waiting for the right chance to use it.
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+[39:29] And how long has it been since summer? So it's been like five months, six months? It's been I over Labor Day I took uh uh eight lobsters on the plane I actually used your the uh the uh clove oil method to uh oh yeah nice and how it worked well for you yeah it worked pretty well I think the concentration was it would I I want to try it again you know because it was a it was it was a preliminary method but it definitely seemed to um affect the lobster's flavor in in a positive way and I I I sort of I have this grand vision of going back up the main returning with more trying again and and crazy I maybe a a pot possible idea of making fish sauce with with with lobster lobster uh carcasses. Well these I haven't seen that done before. The interesting thing about um I you know I have a new I have a new technique for lobster that I use um yeah the lobster, the reason lobster taste good in Maine is because well, if you talk to a main person, it's because they have hard bottom, whereas like cape lobsters, like there's a mud bottom, and so like you know, fit the the lobster the lobster folks from Maine are like, I would never eat one of those mud bugs from the cape.
+
+[40:33] And then you're like, oh come on, man. Honestly, they do have some good tasting lobsters in Maine, but lobsters start deteriorat deteriorating the minute they're pulled out, right? So and like so when they're sitting in tanks for a long time, they deteriorate. That's why, like, you know, if you if you get the guy from the lobster boat, you'll that's why the lobster plus also obviously, depending on the time of year, whether you like a shedder or what, depending on how long ago the lobster molted, that can also obvious it's an obvious effect of quality. But they, you know, you want the lobster to be as fresh as possible.
+
+[40:59] This was why they probably tasted good. You flew them back and cooked them right away. But uh that wasn't a total aside, you know, because I I go on tangents. But the the I have a new lobster technique uh from maybe like a year ago or something that I do. Uh if you don't want to do clove oil, you could try that try this one out.
+
+[41:15] Um what I do is I uh I spike the I put the lobster in a in a uh baking tray, right? Uh glass baking, I don't have to use glass, but uh I use it because it's non-reactive. A glass baking tray with like a little like wood block under its carapace, and then I uh I cut through the uh carapace, like destroying all of the uh you know, most of the uh ganglia that are uh around there. You basically just bisect the head, right? So now you've wiped out the head, and then uh I uh I uh break it apart, and then I take the shells and I make the shells into a uh lobster stock, and then I add the meat from the lobster back to the lobster stock and then uh poach it off that way so you don't lose any uh of the flavor.
+
+[42:03] And I've been ha getting good results with it. Mm-hmm. Anyway, there's a different thing to try sometime if you want. But uh Yeah, I'll be I'll be I'll be sure to try it. I'll I'll let you know how the uh the lobster tamale butter tastes.
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+[42:14] Yeah, so yeah send that send send us a link to the uh Twitter account so uh at cooking issues so I so you know how it tastes. Okay, great. Thanks so much. Alright cool thank you. Caller you're on the air.
+
+[42:24] Hello? Hello? Hi it's Brian how are you guys hey doing all right how you doing? I'm alright uh doing okay in the snow yeah yeah um I gotta all this conversation about botulism has made me paranoid about this um pressed eggplant pickle um that I've that I made um uh a couple months ago when the weather was was nice and we had lots of eggplants. Um so what I did is I I pressed I I sliced the eggplant thin and then I salted it and then um basically I I I I drained it and then I added a a bunch of vinegar to it.
+
+[42:59] I mean this is a traditional sort of Italian recipe and then you take um and then you put some um uh some olive oil and some garlic and some pepper over it and then you uh and then you you cover it. Um and I've also seen it done with mushrooms as well. Um so basically there's not much there's not really any water uh or very little water in there. Should I be worried about botulism? I mean I put them in cans but I haven't done a a heat pack.
+
+[43:28] I didn't do a heat pack process because it was a cold process. Right. Uh well I mean I have a jar of those eggplants in my uh fridge right now. They're delicious. You know I mean I have a commer a commercial variety but uh they're Italian they're delicious.
+
+[43:41] But um they're acidic, you know uh so like I mean the main the main thing there is you know your your your two main saviors there are their salty and they're acidic. Uh and so that's what's making them safe. I mean the the the real problem is like uh in mushrooms where people don't add acidity and they do it you know low acid or they don't add enough acid and or enough acid and salt uh and then they get rid of um competitive uh bacteria. Did you do a cook step at all? Did you cook it at all or no?
+
+[44:14] There was no cooking. Right. So again, like you know, as I said before, that's probably actually helping you because if there was if you didn't add enough salt to prevent any sort of uh growth or enough acid to really prevent uh growth, then probably you would get lactic acid bacteria growing in there and it would function more like a traditional pick. Remember, when you're pickling vegetables in water, they're essentially in anaerobic uh like sauerkraut and kimchi are essentially anaerobic uh activities. And things like botulism are being um prevented by uh combinations of com of uh competition from lactic acid bacteria because they haven't been destroyed and uh and uh through salt and through uh the acidity, either added acidity in your case from vinegar or the acidity that's produced by lactic acid bacteria.
+
+[44:59] Uh and you know, I don't want to really go on the record saying what's safe and what's not because uh you know, like uh I can't, but the fact of the matter is is that a lot of your problems are gonna happen if you destroy the competitive bacteria through heat processing, because the heat processing typically that you're gonna do, unless you're doing retort canning, is not enough to kill the spores of things like botulism. You know what I'm saying? I hear that. But even even with this one, um because it's covered with olive oil, does that make it more prone to um uh to uh you know nasty bacteria? Well, the olive oil covering it like instantly now you're in an anaerobic uh you're in in an inner an anaerobic uh environment without right?
+
+[45:42] But but the so the question is what's gonna grow in that anaerobic environment so you're you know there are nasty things that grow in an anaer anaerobic uh environment perfingens uh you know botulism you know some spore forming nasties like that uh there's microaerobic things that can grow in those environments like listeria and so then the question is but there's also good things that grow in that environment like lactic acid bacteria which is all you know all the great lactic pickles in the world are based on so then the the question is how do you favor the growth of lactic acid bacteria and disfavor the growth of the other nasty ones and salt right uh acidity and not killing the because unfortunately it's fairly easy to kill the good ones because they don't form they they're not spore forming. Lactic acid bacteria you wipe them out and they're wiped out. So if you're not wiping them out to begin with they're still there. So you and and even just like having even if you cook something if you expose it to oxygen and then put it to the air and put it back in there's more lactic acid bacteria hitting it because again they're ubiquitous but it's it's this kind of pasteurization in place in oil phase with low acid and low salt that are really favoring nasty things like botulism um porfringas all these other things. So I you know I don't want to say a hundred percent 'cause I don't know how much salt and how much vinegar there, but if it if it tastes acidic and salty, you know, and you've gotten rid of some of the water through pressing and you know uh you know it seems like fairly I mean especially if you're following a traditional procedure it seems like you're probably pretty safe.
+
+[47:15] A lot of times the safety issues happen when you take a traditional preservation method, let's say confite, and you you know, uh I'm making quote marks in the air, modernize it, right? And uh so typically what modernizing it means is like on a confie is cooking it less, meaning you have a higher water activity because you're not cooking a lot of the water out, or B reducing the salt or reducing the cure time on it, and so like uh or or taking the herbs away because the herbs also have some bacteriostatic effects that are in Confi. So by removing all these hurdles, you can take what is traditionally a safe product and make it an unsafe product. So but if you're following a traditional method, you're not trying to go hyperlow salt and you're not trying to do a bunch of other things like that. Um you know, there there are there are safety uh there are safety methods built into centuries old techniques because when they did it other ways they would die.
+
+[48:09] Yeah, this is an old school m method, and um but if if the can had some um some gas coming out, does the botulism release gas? Oh hell yeah. Not always. That's the thing. Like so, some bot some some forms of botulism are going to release gas.
+
+[48:24] So that's why you're always told not to open uh not to eat cans that produce gas. Uh some but that but uh gas is not a guarantee of uh no botulism. I mean I mean sorry, lack of gas is not a guarantee of no botulism because there are botulism uh strains that will uh not make gas. Uh but if there's gas, also lactic acid bacteria can make gas. So uh you know it it's um like surstroming, the the crazy sweetish fish that like you know you're not allowed to bring on airplanes, although I did uh like you know, that stuff, the cans are bulging, and when you put the can opener into it, the can like explodes with with some foul smelling gunk.
+
+[49:04] So there's other things that make gas other than botulism, but uh, you know, that's why, but you know, if if if a can bloats and you don't know why, you pitch it. Because cans are supposed to be sterilized. So if you're gonna can something commercially sterilized, so if you can something, you're expecting a no-bloat situation. You know what I'm saying? Right.
+
+[49:22] Right. Okay. Uh so like a pickle, like when you pack a pickle, right? Let's say you make a pickle and you pack a pickle, uh, even like a lactic pickle, and then you're gonna can it after it's done, right? So there what you're doing is you're killing the lactic acid bacteria.
+
+[49:36] So there should be no more bloat. And then even if you if you if you get bloat on that, the assumption is it's something nasty that you didn't kill, like botulism, and it's no good. You see what I'm saying? See the difference? Right, I got it.
+
+[49:46] Yeah. Um another pickle related question. So it I've I've read that you can use whey to kick start uh a uh um a p a pickle um and kind of keep it keep it going that way. Um but that seems to me kind of counterintuitive because that is a sounds like a different process, which would create an environment that wouldn't be friendly for lactic acid bacteria. Well, uh I mean like remember, like cheese is grown, I mean cheese like cheese is fundamentally like a lot of the ripening in cheese is uh are lactic acid bacteria and uh and other things.
+
+[50:21] Uh I mean it depends on on what kind of cheese you're making, but no, they the whey is a good substrate to grow uh bacteria. Yeah. Oh, okay. So I can use my uh the from my yog away from my yogurt uh as a as a kind of kickstarter for my pickle and it'll buy it. Yeah, yeah, it's full it's full of lactic acid bacteria already.
+
+[50:39] You know what I mean? Especially if it if it's whey from yogurt, you know, and you haven't eaten it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's already pre-cultured. It might not know whether or not the particular strains that you have are necessarily the ones you want in in pickles, but yeah, you've already got a you already got a raging lactic acid colony there.
+
+[50:55] So already you've kickstarted it and you have it you have the inhibition of uh neck negative uh bacteria like uh like um uh botulism or or or papyring's would it be possible to tickle uh with using whey uh as a as a as a starter and so you don't have to add salt or I don't have to add as much salt. I don't know. I don't want to, I'm not gonna, I don't I can't wanna go there. I don't want to go there. I don't want to co-sign on uh on that.
+
+[51:23] Although there's a lot of people that do very low salt fermentations, but uh I've never done a lot of uh research on on their actual like absolute safety. Okay, great. Thanks for all the help. Um I think I'll be eating the eggplant pitfall. All right.
+
+[51:39] Yeah, if you're if your vision goes double, go to the hospital. That's blurred vision, is one of the problems with botulism. I'm just not I'm just kidding, but but I'm not. I'm kidding, but I'm not. All right.
+
+[51:48] Have a good one. All right. So uh let me rip through the rest of M's questions because I got a couple other questions I gotta go to, and they're gonna pull me off the air pretty soon, I think. Okay. So uh on the meat.
+
+[51:57] Look, do you not like soy? Soy, uh I just you know I forgot who who sent us the uh the tofu book, Andrea Nguyen's tofu book. I just finished reading it, and now I'm at Stas's now, she's she's she's gonna make the face because I'm gonna go on a tofu cake in the new year because it's been many years since I've made tofu regularly, and I realized how much I love fresh tofu. And M, if you like to cook fresh tofu, making your own tofu. I've never found a tofu supplier here in the they're they're here, but I've never looked them up that that I really, really love.
+
+[52:26] I love tofu that you make, like that you make. It's awesome. Like, go ahead and make that. And you can put a whole bunch of things other than soy, which you hate on tofu. And fresh tofu is amazing.
+
+[52:38] And it's also not high in acids, and it doesn't cause the bloat-out that you, you know, that you're you would get from the other things. It's fun to make. Then you can go, you can morph from that. Make, you know what I'm saying? I've only made it a couple times years ago, but I loved it.
+
+[52:44] It was Yuba. You ever made fresh Yuba? Anyone here? Yuba, fresh Yuba, you know, which is the tofu skins, is not the same thing as the dried stuff. It's just not the same stuff.
+
+[53:01] The stuff that's never been that you just make fresh and you eat fresh is just phenomenal product. So I would go that, or you know, try something like uh tempeh or something something like that. Uh, or if you want like hard protein, like I'm not as such of a Satan guy, but you guys like Satan? No. Not such a Setan fellow.
+
+[53:17] But you could you could try it out. But give give those uh give those a shot. And also I wouldn't worry about the uh amount of garlic unless it's actually bothering you, or the acidity of those uh of those peel off products. They're probably just adding a small amount for flavor. And uh, you know, I I wouldn't worry so much uh uh uh about that.
+
+[53:35] And if I have some time, we'll go back and we'll talk about some more spices. Mike, you got you guys got any good spices? I like the ones that you were mentioning. I like turmeric, I like cumin a lot. I use a lot of cumin.
+
+[53:43] I put like boatloads of cumin in my like in my guacamole, although apparently I'm told I'm not. In fact, Stas and Piper made a chili and it didn't have cumin in it. I'm like, well, then it ain't chili. It's not chili, it's some sort of Vermont meat stew. You liked it, right?
+
+[53:57] Yeah. Stas like, I don't want to hear about the chili. All right, let me let me catch some other questions real quick before they uh before they rip me off here. Uh let's start with uh Sam. Sam writes in, hey Dave, what are your thoughts on storing chicken eggs at room temperature?
+
+[54:11] Does the type grocery store eggs, farmers market eggs, uh, blah, blah, blah, just falling out of the chicken. Oh, falling out of the chicken. I don't like that. I thought you like that thoughts, Dot. Bloop.
+
+[54:20] Uh Stas hate. That image is gonna be in her head now. And our previous storage conditions matter. I have no problem storing eggs in the fridge. I just think they look badass in a tray on the counter.
+
+[54:28] Sam, okay, listen. Sam, the issue with storing eggs at room temperature is not one of safety. Uh, it's one of quality. Uh, and it depends on how long you're going to store them. If you're only going to have them for a couple of days, then it's not going to make that big of a difference.
+
+[54:41] You're going to want to look up the haw unit. The hall unit is a measurement of how high the egg yolk sits up on the egg white. And it's a determinant of the quality of thick white versus thin white. And what happens at higher temperatures like uh storage temperatures out on the on the counter is that the thick white breaks down, and you also have a lot more transpiration uh at the higher temperatures and loss of moisture through the uh through the egg. So you're gonna get more weight loss at room temperature through the pores in the eggshell, and you're also gonna get more degradation of the thick white into thin white when it's sitting at uh room temperature.
+
+[55:13] So if you're gonna use them right away, no, it doesn't matter. If you're not gonna use them right away, then please uh keep them in the fridge because you're just gonna be losing more and more of your uh thick uh white. That makes sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[55:25] And they uh I read an article called comparing uh comparative proteomic analysis of egg white proteins under various storage temperatures. And what they think uh it's going on is that you're getting uh an excess acceleration of the breakdown of uh ovalbumin at higher temperatures, possibly due to um enzymatic reactions. Okay. Uh got a question on uh someone who just got their nomiku, but I don't have the name of who asked it, which is unfortunate. Uh dear Dave, Nastasha, and crew.
+
+[55:49] I've recently reviewed, uh received my brand new Nomiku circulator, which made by Weepop, Weepop Sip. Uh Bam. Uh, and I'm extremely happy with the few things I've cooked in it. 63 degree egg, 55 uh degree strip steak, and 60 degree sausages. Those are all good, although cook the rib.
+
+[56:03] I like the rib much better than the strip, but that's just me. For Christmas, this is very important. We have to get to this question. For Christmas, I've ordered a two-rib aged prime rib from my small family, and of course I'm planning to circulate it. I've heard Dave talk about this dish a few times, but I cannot piece together all the advice from different shows.
+
+[56:18] So I'd be very grateful if he could give a best practices for low temperature prime rib. I'm planning to do 55 for about four hours with the meat sliced into two steaks. I think this is enough to pasteurize it for my pregnant wife and two year old son. Uh you're correct, it is. And then we don't have your name, which sucks.
+
+[57:27] Uh, but you send it into us. So here's the deal. So on a dry age prime rib, uh smell the bone. Usually when you're dry aging a piece of meat, a lot of the kind of dry age smell uh is on the on the like silver skin and and like stuff right around that bone. If you cook in a bag with the bone, sometimes that flavor can permeate all of the meat, and some people like that, and some people hate that.
+
+[57:49] So if you are a huge flavor, uh uh uh fan rather of the look of the dry age funk that comes from a long age thing, just smell that bone and realize that that smell is gonna be throughout the piece of meat if you cook that way. If you don't want it that hardcore, and if your wife is pregnant, let me just tell you, having gone through uh cooking for a pregnant wife twice, same wife, two different pregnancies, uh you uh certain smells like that can really be triggers uh uh for uh people who are pregnant. And so you might not want to have of making them not want to eat it. You know what I'm saying? So uh if I were you and uh uh and I was cooking for my wife when she was pregnant, I would cut the bone off before I cooked it.
+
+[58:30] Now, what to do with that bone? Chop that bone up, roast it off, uh make any sort of gravy, render the fat out of it, do whatever you can, and make a Yorkshire pudding to go with your prime rib that can be done at the same time that things done. Because Yorkshire pudding is one of God's gifts of food. You just want to render out enough flavor and cracklings and fat so that when you whip up the Yorkshire pudding, make sure and pour it into the hot uh you know, into the into the roasting pan that you get that awesome beef flavor. And typically that's what I'll do when I make a prime rib, I'll trim it all out for I I leave fat on because I like fat, but I'll trim off uh you know some of the fat and the bones and I'll roast them off, and I can have a Yorkshire pudding ready as soon as the steak is ready instead of waiting for 20 minutes while the rib is resting during normal cook to make your Yorkshire pudding.
+
+[59:11] So I got you covered on that bone. That's definitely what you should do. Now, what you really need to also be careful of is that you don't want to low temp cook the rib entire and then serve it that way because with prime rib, you want a little bit of the overcooked parts around the edges, right? So if you're gonna serve it as a standing rib, which you're not, then what I what I do is I would cook the cook it uh low temp and then roast it in a high oven after out you let the temperature come all you know way down, and then you roast it in a in a in a hot oven to get that kind of prime rib feel. If you're gonna stake it, then I would sear it, I would stake it before you cook it, right?
+
+[59:45] This way uh you're gonna have some searing around the edges. It's not just one big field of same colored meat. I would stake it before you sear it, uh before you s uh circulate it. Then I would do your pre-sear just like you did, bag it. I would cook it at that 55 for like you say, like four hours is good.
+
+[1:00:01] It'll be nice and tender. Then I would drop it to 50 for about a half hour. Uh, you know, I would ice cube drop it. Just throw I set your circuit 50, throw ice cubes in, the temperature will drop down to 50, hold it there for a half hour. You're not limiting the safety because you're gonna eat it right away.
+
+[1:00:17] Then I would sear it in uh in a super hot, I would get like cast iron uh thing screaming hot. Don't use a torch on it. Cast iron pan screaming hot. Uh open your windows, turn on the hoods, it's gonna make uh uh an immense amount of smoke. It's gonna be a nightmare.
+
+[1:00:31] Then uh after they're screaming hot, put you know enough oil to make sure that you hit all the sides of the uh steaks. I would do two pots at uh two pans at once, and then do like a minute and a half, two minutes on each side to sear it off and serve it with the Yorkshire pudding, and I think you're gonna be happy with that. Yeah? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:46] Alright. Good luck with that. Let us know how it goes. Uh now, if we do we have time? No, we're five, six past.
+
+[1:00:52] Do we have we have time for one more quick one or no? No. We need to do some promo stuff. But so I got I got okay. Why don't we well David Gabois wrote in about foie gras cooking an Arzak egg.
+
+[1:01:02] All right. Our our callers should only ask one question. That's the problem. What? Wow, well, we're here, we're here.
+
+[1:01:08] All right, well, why don't you do the promo stuff and if they rip us off the air, they rip us off the air. And then I'll talk about at the end well. All right, Rebecca, go ahead. You guys should do it. Well, what are we talking about?
+
+[1:01:16] Oh, the Reddit tonight. You guys are Dave's doing uh Reddit AMA. I'm doing an Ask Me Anything, right? That's what it's AM. Yeah, I don't really understand how it works, but apparently I'm gonna be uh at a computer terminal between six and 8 p.m.
+
+[1:01:26] tonight. Six thirty. Six thirty and 8 p.m. tonight, uh answering any questions. And they showed me an example, and some uh a uh nuclear scientist was uh like there, like some sort of like, you know, anti or I guess he's anti nuclear proliferation, something like that.
+
+[1:01:42] And uh and someone asked him how to cook lamb low temp. I'm like, holy crap. I hope first of all, he was totally wrong, by the way. Do not put garlic powder on your low temp lamb. And I uh this has been circulating that you should put garlic powder in the bag for variety of reasons.
+
+[1:01:54] Don't do it. But uh, because it tastes kind of burnt and I don't like it. But but but but then I was like, I hope no one asks me questions about nuclear proliferation because that's not my specialty, and it says ask me anything. But Rebecca said, Don't worry, it's not answer anything, it's ask me anything. I can be like, yo, I don't know anything about it.
+
+[1:02:10] I don't know squat about that. I don't know anything about. I mean, I do know something about that. It's true. If you don't know the answer to it, you can say you don't know the answer to that.
+
+[1:02:16] I think you know that's the smartest thing you could ever say. Like my favorite thing to say, uh I if I don't know the answer, I don't know. So what other promotional stuff do we gotta do? I think that's it pretty much. Alright, okay.
+
+[1:02:24] So, like, until they they're gonna turn me off the air when I do it, but I'm gonna read uh David's question on uh Foie. First of all, uh and and R Zat gag, I'm gonna do the Rzak gig first. First of all, I'm a Sears All Kickstarter Kickstarter supporter, so I'll be looking forward to having my very own Sears all in June. Also, the wife and I uh had a great time at Booker and Dax in June. Uh we chatted with you very briefly about the centerfuge I had just bought off of eBay, uh finished our librations and headed off to WD50 for dinner.
+
+[1:02:48] Good choices. Booker and Dax, WD50, like both of those places. Uh we really need to make it back to NYC soon and see what new stuff you guys are cooking up there. Uh we've got a big dinner coming up, and we and we want to wow the three couples of my wife and I are inviting. I have two separate questions relating to this, but if you only have time for one, then the first one is more important.
+
+[1:03:04] I'm serving seared foie gras, but I don't have a Sears all yet on the side for you because the Sears all is the best way to do this. So, how should I cook and sear it? I'm getting a dozen 2.5 ounce prepackaged slices of foie and don't want to render too much fat out from each slice. Also, these guys are sensitive, so I can't serve it rare. It really needs to be pasteurized.
+
+[1:03:21] With this in mind, I was going to cook the slices sous vide at 131 for 20 to 30 minutes and then steer one side only. I know that each step I would lose precious foie fat. Well, bagging the foie slices with some fat, either clarified butter or pre-rendering the foisse from previous previous applications, reduce the amount of fat each slice loses in the water bath. For searing, how about pan searing with generous amount of fat already in the pan? Maybe a full on shallow fry or even deep fry.
+
+[1:03:45] Since my oven broiler really sucks and my toast more torch mostly sucks, the only other option is to throw them onto a gridiron and get my charcoal weber blazing hot. I'm not afraid to do this even in the winter, but it will not be fun. Alright, here's some answers on this. The extra fat is not gonna help you. And if you're rendering 20 30 minutes at 131 F is not actually enough to pasteurize it.
+
+[1:04:08] So the question when I say sensitive is are they sensitive to the fact that it hasn't been cooked, or are they sensitive in the sense that they might have an immune compromised immune system, right? Uh if it's just that they're sensitive about whether or not it's cooked or not, if you're doing a torchon traditionally, you just do a rapid uh like like 90 second dip in like simmering water, and I think you're probably gonna get less fat loss that way than trying to pasteurize it at like a higher temp for a longer period of time. I think you're gonna get a better texture. Then you could cool it down again in the bag, and then um and then from there I would do I would just do like a screaming hot on a dry pan. You're gonna do much better uh because you're gonna get a faster crust, you're gonna get less bleed out from the edges.
+
+[1:04:50] Remember, if you put it in deep fat, you're heating the edges too, so you're gonna get more bleed out all over all over everything. I would put it in a dry pan. I've always been taught to put it in a dry pan. I would get it hot and put it in uh a dry pan. If the hottest thing you own is your Weber, you can put your pan on the Weber and get it to go, but then do a quick sear off like that.
+
+[1:05:06] Just be careful with it. Also, uh, since you got a dozen 2.5 uh pre-packaged slices, what I would do, and I did this when I was testing out, I had to do the first time I cooked it with the Sears all even. I did this a test. I got like an extra slice, and I just tested that sucker first. So I would take your pre-packed slices, they come in vac bags, although they're probably not cooked vac bags, and then I would just do like uh like a 30 or 30 or 40 second dunk in uh in simmering water, put it directly in ice water after that to stop the cookout on it.
+
+[1:05:36] Then after it's cold, I would cut it open, I would hit the one side and then put it on a serving tray in like a in like a warm place so that the center of it can warm up to temperature. I would try it with one. And then if you can get it done with one, then you're gonna get it to work with all of them. Uh, but let me know how it works out. Okay, two.
+
+[1:05:53] And then this is the last one I can do because but since it's for a Christmas holiday, since it's for a holiday dinner stars, I have to do it. Uh I'm uh doing my own version of an Arzac egg. So uh Arzak, you know, their uh famous uh father uh daughter chef team, the Arzak's in Spain. Uh, and they do this egg where what they do is is they uh they put uh uh they put uh plastic wrap into a ramekin and then they put like nice flavored fats like duck fat. It was actually in one of the early Lucky Peaches in the ramen thing, uh and uh in the ramen episode of the they call them episodes, issues of the uh of uh Lucky Peach.
+
+[1:06:24] Uh and uh they use I think duck fat, olive oil, and I think truffle oil in it. And then but they so they paint the plastic wrap with this and add a little oil to crack the egg in, but they also can put in salt, pepper, and uh spices, which is why it's I guess an interesting technique as opposed to let's say just cooking low temp in shell, which is what I normally do, or poaching in shell. Uh, and then you tie a string around the plastic wrap uh to in case the egg, and then you can poach the egg at traditional temperatures in water, but it's never touched the water uh and it's already pre kind of oiled and spiced. So it's an interesting technique, uh Arzac egg. Anyway, uh so just so you people, if you want to know what Arzac egg is, that was the explanation.
+
+[1:07:00] So here's the question. As far as I can tell, no one else has tried uh what I'm about to tell you, uh, and this might be my very first culinary invention, I think. Instead of using cling film uh for the Arzac egg, uh you put the egg into a spherical ice mold. You can see these uh on uh Amazon.com. Uh close up the mold and then inject additional egg white through the hatch on the top with a syringe until the mold is completely filled.
+
+[1:07:22] Uh, then uh sous vide at 190 F, then with question mark. I've tried doing this for different time intervals and can't seem to get the egg whites to set properly so the egg hold its shape and doesn't fall apart and the yolk is somewhat runny. Do you have any thoughts on strategies I can pursue to make this work? Thanks for any advice you can give uh David Gabwal. Okay, here's what I would do.
+
+[1:07:40] One, uh make sure you're oiling the inside of your stuff so you get good release. Uh injecting it might be breaking up the structure of the egg white. Like, remember in the original Arzac egg, they're not breaking up the structure of the egg white, they're leaving it entire, which is why I kind of poach it together that way. Uh so uh, you know, I would try to see whether you can get away with not doing that. Add a fat to it instead of adding extra egg white and do it in a way that doesn't disrupt the egg white.
+
+[1:08:02] Uh the other thing I'd be careful of is that I looked up the website that you sent me, and they say that it's top rack dishwasher safe, meaning maybe not bottom rack. Find out what kind of plastic that sucker is. Uh, because something like polyethylene is not going to be able to hold up that well. It's totally food safe, but it's not gonna be able to hold up that well at simmering temperatures. If it's polypropylene, you're probably gonna be okay.
+
+[1:08:22] Uh so just make sure that the temperature is gonna be uh alright, and then I wouldn't even try, I wouldn't even use a circuit on that. I would just simmer it the way the Rzak A guys do because you're going to want a very fast, rapid set of the egg white proteins in order to get a nice uh surface and to get it to uh release properly from the mold. And with that, they're gonna kick me off the air. Happy holidays! Cooking issues.
+
+[1:08:51] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[1:09:16] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] Today's program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwardson Sons, producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage using 100% pasture raised, certified humane Berkshire cuts. For more information, visit Edwards Vaham.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:03] Hello, happy new year, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Hatches coming to you live from a Burton's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one, right? One o'clock. Uh on the Tuesdays, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[1:19] Good, how are you? Alright, we got Jack and the Oh, sorry. Oh, we do not have we have no Jack. Jack hates us. We have Joe in the booth today.
+
+[1:26] I got you confused because you have a new haircut, Joe. Yeah, actually I've been called Jack several times now because I have short hair. Really? Yeah, a couple times. You know, uh I shouldn't say this, but since uh Jack's not here and I know I know he's not listening to the program because uh he's totally sick of us.
+
+[1:40] Every time uh uh Nastasha sees someone with the like the roughly Jack facial hair and like that kind of like you know he has like a He wears a beanie thing. Yeah, like a beanie ski cap kind of a thing with Jake. Whenever she sees that look, which is becoming ever more common, he's like, Yo, is that Jack? I'm like, I'm like, you're so you're so racist against and he's a Manhattan guy now. Yeah.
+
+[2:02] So you know you can't be you can't call him a the Brooklyn, like I don't know the Brooklyn cool hipster look anymore because like he's now from Manhattan. Yeah. And since I feel like he's like, you know, like Jack is the model for all that look, like, you know, once he switches to Manhattan, like it's over. It's now it's now it's a Manhattan look. Yeah, soon everyone in Manhattan is gonna be dressing like Jack.
+
+[2:22] Yeah, right. Scraggly little beard and everything. Whoa, scraggly. No, I mean that I don't mean that in a bad way. It really works for him.
+
+[2:30] It really does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Alright. So calling to questions two, 7184972128.
+
+[2:36] That's 784972028. Nah, Joel. Come on, man. I'm gonna get fired. Scraggly.
+
+[2:40] Jack's listening. That's my my that's that should be your next band. Like when you do a side project, it should be called Scraggly in a good way. Maybe that's the album. Jack's listening.
+
+[2:47] The album's. Jack should be here, right? Like Jack's not listening. Yeah, exactly. The last one.
+
+[2:52] I'm hoping Jack calls in from the office. This would just be great. Wow. So uh what uh what happened we haven't been back in in a long time because we hit on Christmas and then we hit on the New Year's. So uh what's been going on, Stas?
+
+[3:03] How was uh where were you in the California? California for Christmas, Connecticut for New Year's. Yeah, how was that? It was okay. Yeah?
+
+[3:09] Mm-hmm. It's okay. Yeah, how was yours? Good. Uh, you know, I made uh oh, we haven't spoken.
+
+[3:13] Have we spoken to people since the Sears Hall thing is done or no? Uh no. No. No, yeah, well, our Sears All thing is over. Uh for those of you that uh I don't know, don't, you know, first time listening to something.
+
+[3:22] We we made a uh a product called the Sears All, and uh Nastasha hates this, so I'm gonna make her do it. Stas, do you does it search? Does it sear only some things? No. Most things?
+
+[3:33] No. Everything? Yeah. All? Yes.
+
+[3:36] Sears all? Sears all. Anyway, so uh we had a Kickstarter for this, and uh we we sold like something on in the on the order of like uh 2,800 of them. Uh and it was actually uh the eighth, we looked this up yesterday, the eighth largest food kickstarter of all times. Food Kickstarter.
+
+[3:56] Uh Jack would have um hit the applause button. Yeah, yeah. Oh right. Damn, no game, no game. And uh yeah, so we did we did well, and uh and you know I'm especially proud of uh what we raised considering that the individual donations, it only costs like sixty-five dollars to do it.
+
+[4:15] So stuff for those of you that missed it, uh Nastasha has set up a an online shop where you can buy it called uh so the shop starter or something like this. We'll announce it in a couple days. Uh all right, whatever. So it didn't happen. I was made that crap.
+
+[4:27] No, no, it's ready to go. Yeah, all right, whatever. So anyway, so here's the thing. So uh I did the prime rib for uh for the for the Christmas. My mom, right, and I've said this before, I love my mom.
+
+[4:37] Mom's a great cook. My mom's the reason why, you know, I cook. Duh. Everyone's mom is the reason why they exist. She's also the reason, kind of, you know, why uh uh I think I like to cook so much.
+
+[4:48] Um, but uh her kitchen is extremely poorly outfitted. Like, so I mean, and this is gonna sound like I'm a complete like jackwad. She has no low temperature cooking, which is not part of the poor outfitting. Stas is giving me the Euro jerk jerk look. Uh, but like she shouldn't have a low temperature thing, so I tell you, so I brought my low temperature rig, which is a half-lexan.
+
+[5:09] I brought oh by the way, we got the Nomiku in on the break. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet. Anyway, so we we got the low temperature rig. Oh, I cooked some deer the other day, low temperature. Oh.
+
+[5:17] I don't have it. This New Year's resolution and not beyond tangent. Well we'll we'll talk about deer in a minute. Anywho, so I uh so I did the the prime rib. My mom bought the entire freaking prime rib, which was so big it wouldn't fit in a half lexan.
+
+[5:30] Wow. So I had to, and you know, the the butcher did that thing where they cut the bones off, then they roll the individual they roll the prime rib and then retie it to the bones. You know what I'm talking about? Whatever. Old school technique.
+
+[5:41] So uh anywho, I pulled, I I cut, I took, I disassembled the butcher's work, cut the bone into three plates, cut two of the rib sections off of the prime rib, bagged them separately, bagged the whole thing in one of those. You know those ziplocks that are intended for and uh not food gray, please, no calls on this. You know the ones that are meant to like roll up comforters and and stuff for like camping? That's the only thing she had big enough to hold this giant prime rib, and I wanted to present it basically whole. So I did the whole sucker at 55 for like five hours, uh five or six hours, then dropped it, then cooled it off, cooled it off, then threw it in a 500 degree oven to overcook the outside a little bit and give it that, and then finished off with dual searzals.
+
+[6:20] So Stas, I put that, I put that picture up. You it'll be up on the site where you can buy the Zeers all in a couple of things. The dual seers alling. Gotta go, gotta go, you know, dingling ding ding ding ding ding ding. Dueling Sears all, you know?
+
+[6:30] Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Um stupid. Yeah, big dumb. Oh, I also did some low temperature deer. Uh, not the one Lucas sent, because that one is uh at the at the headquarters there.
+
+[6:40] But uh we will. Do you know what cut he gave us? Do you remember? Thigh, I think. Thigh?
+
+[6:44] Yeah, I did loin, which is tough, but I did it uh low temperature. It worked uh worked great. So like these uh these two friends of uh Dax's girlfriend were you know, we're over he's he's eight. Anyway, so they were over and they're the cousins. So this 12 year old, it's it's her and her and her sister are there eating.
+
+[7:01] And so we thought that dad had shot the deer. They brought it from Illinois. They're from Southern Illinois, like near the border down there. And uh, so like halfway through the meal, they're like, So, you know, uh, so who sh who shot this deer? She's like, I did.
+
+[7:13] I was like, Whoa! Like this like like 13-year-old, like you know, girl shot this deer. I was like, that's awesome. I was like, how how you know what size would she like? Six-pointer.
+
+[7:23] I was like, Whoa! I love that. Love that. Anyway, uh, we should we gotta get on some questions. We're never gonna finish this stuff on time.
+
+[7:30] Although I have to say, I I I don't know what made me think of this, because Stas, you were over yesterday because it was cold and you didn't want to open the gate to the uh the lab by yourself. So you're over at my house because I live near where I work, thank God. Uh I hate commutes, I hate them. Anyway, me too. Yeah, the commute's well, hey, look, your choice.
+
+[7:46] Nastashi used to live down near where we worked, and she was like, I hate it down here. I'm moving back to Hell's Kitchen. So, two words, your choice. Your choice. Your choice.
+
+[7:55] Uh, anywho. So uh I moved apartments, and I'm gonna talk later about it because someone asked about a kitchen. But uh I moved and uh I used to have black floors and I have a black lab dog. So I didn't think the dog shed so much. I'm moving to a place with gray floors, and I was like, oh my god, dog shed so much.
+
+[8:11] And so like I bought a robotic vacuum cleaner and uh the the room, but the new one, which is pretty sweet. And like here's the thing, right? Everyone's like, oh, maybe that's ridiculous, whatever. I love this damn thing. I love this robotic vacuum cleaner.
+
+[8:21] It's a little loud. No, it's much less loud than a normal vacuum cleaner. And you have to run it longer. Well, but yeah, but you can program it to run when you're not there. Anywho, it runs around the house and it it plugs itself back in when it's done, and so it gets rid of all the dog hair, and I love it.
+
+[8:34] And I was thinking, you know what? What reminded me of it, and the reason I'm bringing it up today, is that uh you know how we always get these questions about and we whatever out damn because we do uh we do technology and food, right? What about 3D printing food? What's the future of food? Future this, future that, right?
+
+[8:49] You know what I'm saying? Right? Stash. Stas is like, hey, future this! Come on.
+
+[8:54] It's uh that Stas is doing the point, the jersey point. But the uh, oh, so uh she said, um, you know, it's like everyone always asks us these questions, and you know what they fundamentally don't get is even though we use a lot of new techniques and technologies, like you know, we like cooking, right? You know, we like human beings that make food that they think is delicious, that they are proud to serve to either their customers or their guests, or they're proud to make that they've created something. It's a pr it's a product that comes from themselves, and that's you know why good cooks like to cook, right? I mean, that's that's really the the impetus.
+
+[9:32] Is it you can make something that's high quality, you get to do it every day, you can constantly hone your skills, and it and it gives a little bit of of yourself to someone else, right? Isn't that why we like to do it? So obviously, you don't want a robot making your freaking food. Like, I mean, whatever, fast food, yes, yes, whatever, fine, industrial food, yes, great. Yes, we all love Twinkies.
+
+[9:50] But but like what I'm saying, you don't want a robot making your food on a daily basis. I was thinking, but like the vacuum robot is perfect, and here's exact the crux of it. And this is why I don't want my food 3D printed regularly. I mean, there are applications, right? But the vacuum cleaner is a good idea.
+
+[10:05] It's no one says this. That thing does vacuuming just like my mom used to do. If I could only find someone that can vacuum in the same way that my mom used to vacuum, then life would be great. You know what I'm saying? It's a freaking vacuum.
+
+[10:22] Nobody cares. They just want it to run, they want it to get underneath the damn thing. You know what I mean? Anyways. Uh, not a clapping day.
+
+[10:30] Yeah, not for our stellar Kickstarter. Uh Christian from Denmark writes in on vacuum reduction. Hello, Nastasha. I hope this is the right place to send questions for cooking issues. It was, because here it is.
+
+[10:44] If so, uh tell the whole crew from yet another fan from Denmark. Well, we are another friend from Denmark. We are Legion by Danish standards anyway. I've never been to Denmark. I was supposed to go to Denmark too, O'Denn's, like uh home of the home of the uh Marzipan, which by the way, Marzipan, delicious.
+
+[10:59] Delicious. Do you like Marzipan? I don't really like it right now. Why? I don't like almond paste.
+
+[11:03] Caller. What? Alright, we'll get back to this question. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, my name is Johnny.
+
+[11:08] I'm from Madison. How you doing? Um Wisconsin? Yeah, where Madison is there. Oh, yeah.
+
+[11:14] How cold is that right now? Uh it's only like 14 below right now. It was 23 yesterday, though. See, here's what I love, right? Like here in New York, we're like griping about this, like, you know, whatever it is, like five cell five Fahrenheit or whatever.
+
+[11:26] And you guys would be laughing at us like fake northern people, as like a real northern person if you weren't getting slammed so hard right now yourself. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I definitely uh there's not much else to concentrate on. Um Do you have good winter gear? I was once in uh Sweden, and although I was uh wrecked, I was above the Arctic Circle, the dog sled lady who was running the sh the musher, she said there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad coats.
+
+[11:52] Oh I was like, very Zen. I I I do I think there is like once you've lived here for a while, there's definitely that opinion. Like you just like don't complain, just get a better setup. Yeah, nice. All right.
+
+[12:03] So what are you cooking today up there? Well, I I you we actually interacted on Twitter because I sent you the picture to the broken centrifuge. Oh, that's you, holy crap! How much do so for those of you that obviously if like uh I have this Twitter account at cooking issues if you want to go to it, and uh got uh got a question in, like, you know, like well, not really a question, more just like a photo. I bought a centrifuge and the buckets broke, and the inside of the thing got hosed.
+
+[12:29] So I was I wanted to know what the damage was so give us a little bit of background on what's going on here. So I um there was a second photo that I sent you had the the the inside of the centrifuge but uh yeah so basically got a centrifuge through the university pretty cheap uh had to check out it was a a Beckman one a little bit older and had a glass had a glass cover which was awesome because you could see inside uh also terrifying um but uh anyway so I uh I got actually I ordered a new rotor uh that I that I was using but I was using the the old buckets right and uh the the bucket broke and it flew into the side and stopped the centrifuge right away. I I bet. I bet I've never were you in the room when it happened uh I wasn't but there was someone else in there and like he said it scared the living crap out of them. I bet like how loud was it did did they say?
+
+[13:30] Yeah they said the dishwasher was like 30 feet away and he said he felt the felt it move. Wow and it moved it moved three feet. Wow and it was do it was doing about four thousand RPMs so yeah so for those of you that don't know we're talking about a little background so we're we're dealing with um we're dealing with uh uh bench top desktop centrifuge th I think like some that with the Beckman Coulter with the with the plexi top is somewhere in the somewhere in the three liter range right it holds roughly three liters. Yep, three liters. Yeah.
+
+[14:02] Swinging bucket centrifuge. Uh, and I've never dealt with a rotor failure, uh, or even really seen pictures of rotor failures on the swinging buckets, but my point of contention has always been that these units, even when they fail, are much safer than the larger, faster ones because the G forces involved are are comparatively low. So it's just very interesting for me to hear now. The buckets that actually interestingly, your buckets were not aluminum, right? Doesn't the Beckman Coulter have stainless steel uh press buckets or no?
+
+[14:32] Yeah, these ones were stainless steel. I actually have aluminum as well. Right. Um so I mean aluminum buckets, aluminum when you're in so a centrifuge, uh, again, for those of you I don't know, it uh they spin and they separate things based on density. However, usually the in a swinging bucket rotor, the buckets they're they swing and they're buckets, hence swinging bucket rotor.
+
+[14:50] And this is what we use mostly in the kitchen because they have a much larger capacity for their size than uh what's called a fixed angle rotor, which normally uses tubes or bottles. And um the problem is most buckets are made out of aluminum, and aluminum uh tends to fatigue over time with flex, and so you get cracks and then they can c catastrophically fail. And when they do, so uh think of this. If you have a uh a swinging bucket rotor, each rotor has its own each bucket has its own weight plus an extra uh you know, seven hundred and fifty grams of product in it. That's 750 grams, if you're doing 4,000 G's, i it is has the equivalent weight of of like three thousand uh uh kilos or something like this.
+
+[15:31] So it's it's no joke. So when that thing flies off, it's it's really no joke. I'm very surprised uh that the Beckman Coulter stainless steel buckets broke because they don't typically show fatigue failures the way aluminum does. What was the failure mode of the bucket? Do you know?
+
+[15:48] I uh I can't it's like seven thousand, eight thousand. I I have to look at it, but I I remember just taking a peek at it. But no, but what did what happen how did the bucket actually break? Like what part of it broke. Oh at the top, right?
+
+[15:59] I mean, exactly where you would think it is. It's kind of like at the point where you latch it onto the rotor. Right. So yeah, so in a normal in a in a normal aluminum bucket, it's I it's probably machined, right? And then there's these two like big things where these pins, these fat pins from the rotor fit in, and the buckets slip onto 'em.
+
+[16:21] And in the stainless one, it looks like it's made out of sheet metal, right? I've never used the stainless ones. I I'm frankly, i is it possible that those the stainless ones are meant to only work with inserts and that they kind of flexed in under the force and popped out? I mean, that can be the only thing I could think of. Did it actually tear at the pin or did it flex and pop out at the pin?
+
+[16:44] I have no idea. It's probably too many, yeah. Literally like it like broke off. I'll send you another photo, but yeah, get a close up. I'd like to see a close-up of where you think the failure started.
+
+[16:53] So I can figure out on to your question. Enough enough of peppering you with questions. What's your what's your question? Well, okay, so I I had a bunch of questions. I mean we started using it and it it's been pretty useful and I figured out quite a bit.
+
+[17:05] But yeah, I was one of the questions was you know what we talked about right now, is like do different buckets need to use the inserts, you know? So maybe we don't know. Yeah, I mean I've never used this the one of the reasons I stayed away from the Beckman Coulters specifically is that the insides of their buckets uh are uh square. Right? Is that uh no, these are round.
+
+[17:28] Oh, they're round insides? Okay, so some of them have the square buckets, and I don't like square uh I don't like square buckets without inserts. The reason being that if you if you were to if you were to take a uh a tack, a strobe tack, which you can buy, I've done it with mine, which is a terrible idea, and you but you put a uh because I don't have a glass top on mine uh and you um put a in fact I think with someone beckling coulter somebody makes one that's meant to do this, and you just fire a strobe tack at it, you can you can get it to fire correctly either by tuning it by hand with it with a strobe tack or by uh putting a little reflective piece of tape on to trigger the attack and um uh with an external signal, you can freeze it, and when you freeze it, you'll see that as the thing is spinning, the liquids inside are rotating and scouring on the inside of the bucket. So my feeling has always been that in a square bucket where you have those uh side seams, that as it slows down, rather than settling, any like kind of less well-formed parts of the puck at the bottom of the of the thing are gonna are gonna get refluffed up to the top. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[18:34] Mm-hmm. So that's why I've always thought round bottoms were good. But anyway, so go ahead. Yeah. Um but mostly what I questions were is just about using clarifying components.
+
+[18:43] Like obviously the pectin's is pretty useful, but do you find that if stuff sits for a day that it goes cloudy again or stuff like that? I thought like I did banana juice and onion juice, and it both got cloudy. Right. So here's what happens. So you use the pectin X, and typically, especially on onion juice, I've noticed this, you you like we'll we'll do like a double spin on it because uh it doesn't knock out the pectin X doesn't get rid, and I I don't even know frankly whether it's all pectin or there's other kind of suspended uh hydrocolloids there.
+
+[19:13] But what you'll do is you'll do an initial clarification run and the sucker will look clear. The same thing happens, by the way, when you do uh quick agar clarification and things like this. So it looks pretty clear, and then you let it sit in the fridge, and then all of a sudden it kind of gets these wispy things and sometimes even goes full cloudy, or sometimes you get a precipitate or settle out. And what's happening is is that over time uh you know the the these things that are are soluble are in solution and therefore not making it cloudy, will agglomerate together, uh coalesce, and then become large enough to partially drop out of solution and make it cloudy again. So the solution there is just to uh or the answer I should say is to uh re-spin.
+
+[19:57] And uh we do we I do that uh a lot, and uh what I what I don't know, because I've never done uh a lot of testing on it because I just haven't had the time to really sit out and do it, is it's like, okay, if you do the onion juice and you just let it sit for two days before you do your first spin, would you still need to do a second spin? I don't know. You know, I don't know whether or not like removing all of that massive stuff is what allows these other things to that or that other pectins, whatever to to uh agglomerate together, or whether or not you would get a better or a simpler result if you just let it sit for a couple days before you spun it out. I I don't know. But it's a fairly common phenomenon to get some flock out and have to do a respin.
+
+[20:35] Okay, so it if I re-spin it, I'm not gonna see the cloudy again. No, you're done. Yeah. And so I noticed that you do it for about 15 minutes normally on a lot of stuff. Is there a benefit to do it longer or shorter or uh well I mean the longer you go, so again, when you turn on if if you were to if you were to get a strobe tack, which I would if I were you, that by the way, if what I'm talking about, guys, is a uh it's a strobe light that's that you can uh adjust how the rate of firing, and it allows you to freeze things like centrifuge buckets, like visually freeze them so you can see what's going on.
+
+[21:06] And if you were to if you fire up the centrifuge and you look at it with a strobe, you uh what you see is is that the the juice clarifies very very quickly. And then um once you once it's settling out. Now there are some things that take a long time to clarify out, and you have to spin for a long, long time. But in general, most of the products that we use are clarifying relatively quickly. But what you need to do is run it long enough to compress the puck so that it doesn't resuspend as it starts uh coming back uh as the as the speed starts slowing back down.
+
+[21:40] So, you know, a lot of times I'm doing um, you know, for events we're doing a lot of product, and so I try to get my spin times down as as low as possible without compromising quality. And so usually 15 is good enough, and so I don't try to go longer. Sometimes if I'm really in a bind, I'll I'll you know, I'll cut it to 10. Anything below 10, and I have a lot of times I'll have a lot of resuspension problems. I mean, some things are easier than others.
+
+[22:04] Bananas drop like a rock, you know what I mean? Like once you hit them with pectanex, banana pulp just like slams to the bottom of your of your thing, and it's you know not not a problem, whereas other things, you know, they they take a little more spinning. Like tomato usually throws a flock. And you know, if you want to also reduce your problems with that de aeration before you spin, makes it settle a lot faster because you don't have as many problems with air bubbles having to pop before it goes down. Surprising fact, you know, four 4,000 G is not enough to pop like kind of the micro air bubbles, and that's why a lot of times you'll get, especially on something like tomatoes, where you're blending it in a blender and it it it traps so much pulp, you'll get a mat on the top.
+
+[22:40] And I don't think that mat is caused by things that are inherently less dense, like oil. I'm pretty sure that that mat is just a trapped air mat. Do you cook the bananas first or do you uh to do that? Yeah, no cooker. No cook, but you have to make sure to use um ripe bananas, because raw bananas contain starch and the starch will not settle out on a centrifuge to get us to in our centrifuges anyway.
+
+[22:59] Like to get it to settle out, you need to you know you just wait a long, long time, and the starch will eventually settle out, or you could probably eat the starch with enamylase. But the issue is uh I I'm not sure whether the amylase starch can it withstand the alcohol environment that we do in a typical kind of banana Houstino situation. You know what I mean? Um I I pressure cooked them first with uh some baking soda and like caramelize them, and it turned out really good. I was that was my favorite thing.
+
+[23:29] Nice. Nice. Um and then just I uh I I I picked up two centrifuges because they might contact the university had it. But the other one is uh pretty is not quite as fast as about 2,000 G's. Right.
+
+[23:43] Is there much I can do with that or you're gonna have to probably is it fixed angle or swinging bucket? Uh fixed angle. Okay. So the good news for you is that fixed angle uh fixed angle rotors uh tend to get uh a better uh level of clarification at uh lower G forces and a swinging bucket does. So you can get good results with a uh a fixed angle running at 2,000 G's.
+
+[24:10] You're gonna probably have to spin a little longer, and obviously, you know, you probably don't have the same capacity in it. But if you look at a fixed angle rotor, a fixed angle rotor is holding uh the tubes at a relatively steep angle. And what that means is is that the average particle that you need to clarify out of solution needs to only travel a very short distance before it hits the uh side of the tube. And then it's scoured down towards the bottom where it pellets and forms a puck, but they have very strong pelleting uh capabilities, which means that you can do the kind of work that we're doing at relatively lower speeds and still get good results. So I'd say it should work for a lot of the recipes, not all of them.
+
+[24:53] Um I noticed you use the wine clarifying um uh chemicals as well. Do you is that helpful or is it I mean obviously helpful, but like how helpful? Oh, incredibly helpful. Like so, you know, when I'm doing lime juice or grapefruit juice, I usually use it on citrus products. Um you know, it uh it the stuff almost auto clarifies.
+
+[25:17] If you let lime juice sit around and you do the Kiesel salt and chitasan, which are the two wine finding agents I use in in conjunction with SPL, it'll settle just like apple juice will. And the only reason I centrifuge it is to increase my yield. I mean, I'd probably only get a without a centrifuge, I'd only and someone asked me this question later, I'm gonna get to it, hopefully, but you only get a yield of about 50%. Whereas uh, you know, with a centrifuge, I get something like 98% yield off of lime juice. Oh, very good.
+
+[25:44] Alright, well, I think the thing I I'm glad that it broke in some ways because now I know like your worst case scenario. That is the worst you you have experienced the worst case scenario. It's all uphill from here, my friend. But great. All right, well, thanks so much.
+
+[26:00] Alright, thank you. Stay warm. Alright. So back to Christian Hall from Denmark. Um thanks so much for your hugely inspirational radio show and blog.
+
+[26:10] Very nice. We like to hear comments, right, Stas. Uh I have university background in philosophy and literature. Well, I have philosophy. You have literature.
+
+[26:17] Yep. Yeah. Me, I don't read fiction because I'm a jerk. I miss fiction. I'm gonna start reading it again.
+
+[26:22] Yeah. You know, my my wife, who is editing, edited my uh, you know, well, I have an editor, Maria Gorna Shelley, but who like my wife is like, you know, read, and is the reason why I'm considered a writer is because my wife reads all this stuff. She goes, Dave, you need to read fiction so that your writing doesn't suck so much. Ah, that's what you're doing. She's so hard.
+
+[26:37] My wife's so hardcore. Uh anyway, uh, philosophy and literature and learning about the analytical approach to cooking that's at the center of the modernist movement, viewing a dish as a series of problems to be understood and solved was what convinced me there might be a point to putting my 30-year-old self through cooking school. And today, four years later, I'm running my own catering company. We've got versions of your gel and ice cream on the menu at least once a week, and are running our centrifuge based on your recommendations every day. Nice.
+
+[27:02] I like that. And you know, oh, I like I said before, I've never been to Denmark. Someday. Actually, it's not true. I flew into Denmark to go to Sweden, but we didn't stay.
+
+[27:09] Doesn't count. That's like saying I was in blah blah, I was in the airport. No, you weren't there. All right. Uh here are my questions.
+
+[27:15] For a while now, I've been experimenting with vacuum reductions using the aspirator slash stirring hot plate method outlined in modernist cuisine. But I'm finding that running the aspirator is too much of a hassle for us to really start making proper use of it. Could I switch to a diaphragm pump instead? And if so, what would some of the advantages and disadvantages be? I've also been toying with the idea of adding a cold finger.
+
+[27:35] Cold finger. I love that word cold finger, don't you? Cold finger. Cold finger condenser and uh receiving flask in between the boiling flask and the pump to try out distillations. Would this work even remotely well, or should I just hold off until we can afford a proper road of app, aka rotary evaporator?
+
+[27:51] Keep up the great work. Looking forward to getting my Sears all. Thanks. Christian Hall. Okay.
+
+[27:56] So for those of you that have no idea what we're just talking about, uh, here's the thing. So uh when you want to do uh reductions of things, let's just say port wine, because everyone wants to reduce port wine, right? Don't you like a port wine reduction? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, shut up.
+
+[28:09] Uh see uh so it the problem doing normal reductions is obviously they happen at high temperature. So what by putting something under under a vacuum, like in a rotary evaporator or a vacuum still, you can do reductions at um low temperatures. So you get very, very fresh, punchy flavors that haven't been altered by high, high heat. Now, the average bartender, so in a rotary evaporator, that's one of the things you can do. So the average bartender cares mostly about the distillate, right?
+
+[28:35] And so this aspirator thing that we're talking about, which I'll explain in a second, doesn't really help help with that. Uh but the average uh cook cares mostly about the reductions, what's in the reduction flask. And so for that is the aspirator. So Chris Young and Nathan Miravold, you know, and uh Maxine, when they were writing the miners cuisine, one of the things they said, hey, look, it's not just for rich people is they bought an aspirator. An aspirator is uh uses a kind of like a venturi effect.
+
+[28:59] You blow water, it doesn't have to be water actually, it could be anything else, but they use water, uh, out of a faucet uh as it goes through uh that entrains air and blasts it down and it creates a vacuum. And this is how uh you know, in high school, you used to make a vacu well, at least me, I didn't because I didn't do it in college. You know, this is how you'd make a vacuum in the lab. You'd have these water aspirators and you'd run, they'd run water into the sink. And now that and they'd work.
+
+[29:22] Now, the advantage of this kind of a pump, and so then what he did is he he hooked this up to an Erlenmeyer flask, which is a square uh you know, uh uh flat bottom flask uh with a neck. The neck went to the aspirator pump, uh, and then uh you know you have your product in there, you have a stir plate to keep it stirred so it doesn't bubble over, and you heat it a little bit because if you don't heat it at all, it'll just get colder and colder as stuff evaporates. It's evaporative cooling. So you have to heat it, even if you're doing room temperature distillation, and you suck the vacuum, and there you go. You get your reductions at low temperature.
+
+[29:53] Now, theoretically, this is gonna work. However, aspirators uh have two fundamental problems. First problem, they don't suck a very good vacuum, period. Because the amount of vacuum you can suck is dependent upon the vapor pressure of water at whatever temperature you're using. So if you're heating your product up, right, uh, you know, up to a reasonable level, then you have a good deal of difference between the boiling point of your product and the current vapor pressure of water at your cold water temp.
+
+[30:23] One of the ways to solve that is to recirculate the water in the aspirator and put ice into it. This lowers the vapor pressure of the water and allows you to get uh higher vacuums. The other disadvantage of aspirators is they have abysmal, abysmal pump rates. So you can, you know, pump very little uh actual volume of air, regardless of how good your um your you know the the ultimate vacuum you can attain is. Now, one way to get around this is to gang multiple aspirators together, like and I you know I've said this many times, but you know, you know, I don't know, ten years ago when I was first looking into or whatever, eight years, whatever it is, looking into doing vacuum distillation.
+
+[30:59] I turned to whoever, you know, the people who uh you know need vacuum distillation and can't go to normal channels and don't have money. Meth producers. And so meth producers online, they used to, I don't know whether they still have them, had a bunch of websites on how to basically you know set up a meth meth labs at home. And one of the things they're concerned with is vacuum, uh uh vacuum distillation. And so they would take what's called a float, they would go to Home Depot, they would buy a flowjet garden pump, which is like, you know, like to pump water, and they would pump it through multiple gang aspirators hooked up to PVC piping.
+
+[31:32] And I tried it, and it worked. I wasn't making meth. I was not making meth. Uh, and uh, but they, you know, it worked okay, but still it chokes up. It's not the best thing for it uh for doing a vacuum reduction.
+
+[31:44] So I really, you know, if you're gonna be doing a lot of it, I think you could play around with the aspirator, but Matt. Uh now, if you're gonna switch to a diaphragm pump, diaphragm, so the the two main pumps, once you throw the aspirator out, the two main pumps that you're gonna be dealing with are either uh a rotary vein pump, oil pump, and the only really affordable ones you can get are the styles for refrigeration. So Robin Air, uh, you know, yellow jacket, um, things like the JB. These are refrigeration pumps, and they make a boatload of them because every refrigeration tech in the country, probably in the world, I'm sure it's done the same way everywhere. Um, they take this uh refrigeration pumps and they pump the old uh refrigerant out of your of your refrigerator, and they have to suck like an amazing vacuum to completely dry down and get all the contaminants out of your refrigeration system before they recharge it.
+
+[32:30] So there's a lot of them out there, and they're relatively inexpensive. And they have a relatively high pump rate, and they have a relatively good ultimate vacuum uh down in the you know, like you know, a couple of millibars you can get down to, which is pretty damn good. Uh more than you need. Um they also have a fairly decent uh toleration of uh entrained moisture. Now, your problem, now if you're good at the diaphragm pumps, they don't get nearly as good uh uh a vacuum.
+
+[33:01] They're a lot more expensive, but they don't uh volatilize uh or put oil or smells into your kitchen, and they're a lot cleaner than and they're a lot quieter than uh the rotary vein pumps. So that's that's the kind of the trade-offs. Neither one of them is designed to handle large quantities of vapor. That's the only advantage of the aspirator, is that the aspirator can handle as much vapor as it can pump out, it can handle because it's not getting contaminated by the vapor. It's just shooting the vapor out into whatever, you know, whatever the trough is that you're putting it into.
+
+[33:35] So, in order to use either a diaphragm pump or a rotary vein pump, you will need a cold trap of some sort. So, in order to do this at all, this is a long answer to your question, you're gonna need the cold finger to uh condense your product back because the secret of distillation, which is what you're doing, whether or not you think of it as reduction or not, what you're actually doing in a closed system, which is what you're gonna need to do to get your vacuum to not choke on you, is to do uh actual distillation, and you need to supply as much cooling power to recondense your vapor as you supplied to um to boil it off in the first place. And there are pumps, uh, you know, like BOC Edwards makes a dry vein pump that I'm I hear can handle large amounts of vapor, but you're talking like three, four, three, four thousand, you know, bucks. Uh so is it worth trying to do distillations that way before you get a roto vap? Let me put it this way.
+
+[34:29] Uh I did it. Uh I got products I thought tasted good, and but all it did was wet my appetite to buy a rotovap, which I eventually did. And so I think it's kind of uh, you know, it's worth doing as a gateway, and as soon as you start playing around with it, you're gonna say to yourself, damn, I need to go buy myself a rotovap. And you probably will. Let me know.
+
+[34:53] Anyway, what do you think, stuff? Is that the reasonable answer to the answer the question? Yeah. Alright, let's go to a commercial break on cooking issues. The following program was brought to you by S.
+
+[37:36] Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than four hundred days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty.
+
+[38:06] For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham.com. Wow. Wow. Yeah, I think we've been using that one a little bit, but maybe it's a new mix. Jack had to make a never associated uh Sam Edwards' hams with uh Harmonica stands out a little bit more.
+
+[38:34] But I guess now now I will. Yeah. Uh yeah, all right. Well, yeah, we like we like their we like their product. Make they make an excellent product.
+
+[38:42] But you have to eat it to enjoy it. Am I right? Yeah. Oh, a caller. We have a caller.
+
+[38:47] Color you're on the air. Hey Dave and Sasha, happy new year. Happy New Year. Um I have a question about Koji. And um I bought some of the Cold Mountain Koji and I used it to uh make my own uh shio koji and uh make amazake successfully.
+
+[39:05] And um how was it? Now I want to experiment and get into making some miso and and and some other things. But instead of you know buying the tubs of the of the cold mountain or one from online, what I want to do is make my own um uh you know, Koji sport. So if I let the rice um uh go to spore, I was reading that there might be some risk of creating some um some toxins if it goes too far. So I'm wondering if you have any advice on on on doing this at home and uh how to how to get a good result so then I can culture all kinds of things that aren't are aren't uh aren't just rice.
+
+[39:45] Right. Okay, so uh first of all, how was the amazake? Was it good? Oh, it's delicious, really sweet. You can take it, put it it actually makes a great ice cream.
+
+[39:53] Really? I've been at the Yeah, yeah. It's already thick and and and uh just just blend it up and uh in in the blender and stick it in the freezer. It's got great texture. That's really an amazing idea.
+
+[40:04] I don't know why I never thought of that. That's a good idea. I might try that. Uh if we should if it's a good idea today. So uh not not today.
+
+[40:11] Uh although you can just walk outside with it right now, just like turn on the the blender and make it. Just kidding. Exactly. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, uh Koji uh is uh fundamentally you you you you have an aspergillus, I forget which which aspergillus, it's an aspergillus mold that's grown on uh uh on things like rice, uh, and uh you use that to instead of uh a malting thing as a base to break down carbohydrates for then further fermentation, right? And so you start with a koji base for things like sake for amazake for uh or for things like uh misos or uh other fermented things like this.
+
+[40:51] And it it's uh the problem being, and this is you know the question here, is there are asparagillus strains that are that do produce toxins. Uh I unfortunately, you know, the real guys to ask on this are the uh Mamafuku uh the Momofuku lab guys, because they you know they're the ones doing all of their own kind of misos and they do all their own koji work and all their own spirulation. If you were to take a something that you had that was already uh inoculated and then just keep that one and keep re-inoculating based on that, I would think your odds of contamination with something that's nasty is pretty low, but I don't have enough experience for me to um go out on on a limb. And so, you know, I ask like having me say something, I would just be respouting stuff from Shirtleaf's Miso book and from Sandra Katz's fermentation book. So I you know I hesitate to give you my own kind of advice on it, you know.
+
+[41:53] Okay. Um I guess I'll I'll have a I'll I'll send an email to the Mobafuku lab guys and um if I get a response. Yeah, like Ryan over there, right? You know, I I I can ask him. I mean when I when I see him, so you know, fundamentally you just want to know like how to how to tell if something bad has happened.
+
+[42:12] Well, I want to make my own, you know, what they call Kochi Kin, right? Which is the it's the spores themselves. So then you can sprinkle that stuff on on pretty much anything and then you know, go to town and experiment. Um you can order some spores online, but then you know, you have a finite amount. Right.
+
+[42:30] Or you can take or I can buy, you know, like the cold mountain um Koji, which is already rice, grow it, and then harvest off the um some of the uh uh some of the spores from from that. Uh you know, so that's that's really that's really the question. Yeah, I mean I don't know that they do it so you so in other words you want something that you can like do once, then save as a dry form for a long time and then do again and like be guaranteed of good results. Exactly. Yeah.
+
+[43:00] I'll look into it and and and and uh I'll I'll uh because your feeling is if you just save some and just kind of dehigh it, grind it up and then powder that back in that you won't necessarily have the efficacy that you need. That's that's the that's a worry. Or you know, or will that work, I guess is the question. I mean, I think that probably will propagate it. I mean, I probably yeah, all right.
+
+[43:25] I I'll uh look this is something I should know, and I'm embarrassed for not knowing off the top of my head, so I'll look into it and Stas, write write uh write an email to yourself so that we have it for next week. And next week I'll get the answer for you because if I don't I'm about to able to fan uh answer it, I'll just ask the Momo lab guys myself and we'll we'll we'll get to the bottom of it for you for next week. Thank you kindly. Alrighty, talk to you so uh Joe from Chicago uh writes in about kitchen design. Hey Dave and Cooking Issues Crew.
+
+[43:53] I currently live in downtown Chicago. Also cold there. Some cold over there. I currently live in downtown Chicago and have plans to move out of the city in the next year or two. In the meantime, I've been obsessing over designing the perfect kitchen.
+
+[44:07] And given your recent move, I figured I'd ask you the following questions. What's most important to you when establishing uh yourself in a new kitchen space in terms of organization, placement of appliances, maximizing efficiency, etc. I would love to hear a rant on your approach to kitchen design and how will your approach change if you weren't crammed into a tiny NYC space. Alright, well, after the second section of that, how would how would my approach change if I wasn't crammed into a tiny space? I would definitely I would just have more freaking equipment.
+
+[44:35] It's not even just the space, it's also my power limitations. I live in an apartment and uh, you know, I have relatively unlimited supplies of gas, but I have very limited supplies of electricity, uh, which means that you know my ovens have to fire on gas. Uh I can only have a single group espresso machine. Whoa, pity me, mom. Uh douche.
+
+[44:59] Uh but the uh I'm a dish. Big douche, big douche, big douche. So uh, you know, so for me in an apartment, space management is a key issue, power management also an issue. Ventilation also an issue. Very hard to get good ventilation in a uh, you know, in a New York City apartment because it's hard to compromise window space and you're not allowed to punch a whole lot of holes in your wall.
+
+[45:19] Uh, even regular home ventilation that most people get just sucks. It's just so bad. I mean, the thing that I would do, the first thing that I would invest in when you invest in a new kitchen is invest in proper ventilation and makeup air so that you can run your kitchen without smoking it. And when I say run it, I mean beat it hard. You want to fire up all your burners.
+
+[45:43] You want to be cooking something at a billion degrees in your oven if you want to, and you know, grilling something, and you don't want to have the rest of your family run in there and be like, the house is full of smoke, it's full of smoke, it hurts my eyes. You know what I mean? This is not what you want to have happen. You want to be able to beat on your kitchen and have the smoke go away. And I've said this for a long time.
+
+[46:04] I think in kitchens, like I hope that in the next 10 years, one of the things people focus on more is air quality in the in the kitchen in terms of ventilation as being a major problem to be dealt with in the average home kitchen. And I don't really know whether it's just because people don't cook enough at home anymore or what, but people aren't concerned enough about ventilation, except for when you're about to cook, and then everyone's concerned about are we gonna set up the smoke detectors? Are you gonna set up the smoke detectors? And so people actually cook in a crappy fashion at home because they haven't bothered. There are people that out there who have like $5,000, $6,000 stoves, right?
+
+[46:43] And they won't use them to their maximum capability because they're worried about setting off the freaking smoke detectors in their house because they haven't invested in proper ventilation to use their cooking equipment properly, right? Now, second rant about uh cooking equipment is that I use uh exclusively professional uh ranges at home, even though I'm not supposed to. Uh and I'll tell you why. Home ranges don't have the power. They I looked at them like the average like professional style, and you can see my hands making those dumb quote things, but like professional style home ranges, they cost a lot of money, and the burners just don't have the oomph.
+
+[47:24] They're just not powerful enough to do what I want them to do. Um, you know, so you know, I I prefer, and I don't always use it, but I prefer to have a burner in the you know, I don't need it like mega, I don't need a 35 uh K BTU uh burner, but I like to have a burner that can, if you want to pump up to like in the and I and I know when I say this many times, measuring something based on BTUs alone is dumb because it's a measure of how much energy it uses, not a measure of how much energy it puts into the pan. A good induction unit can beat a uh you know, a 30,000 BTU burner any day. But that said, I'm I'm a mainly a gas person for the reasons I said earlier. Uh and the 30,000 in that range is where I kind of need to be to really get the power I want.
+
+[48:08] But you want to choose a burner that throttles down appropriately and that has a flame pattern that can accommodate both large pans and small pans without uh uh too much difficulty. Alright. If you're gonna invest, I would invest also in if you can get an electric oven, preferably convection, I would do that. I mean, so the ultimate in terms of unless you're gonna go full induction and go really nice and get used to it, which I've never done, you know, you're gonna want gas range and electric uh of it with good ventilation, right? Uh back in the day when I had space when I lived in a loft and power, you know, it was like three phase power because it was a sweatshop that it used to be before I moved in there.
+
+[48:46] I had a uh I had uh a blogged commercial convection oven, and that thing was a cookie machine. That thing I could blast out cookies and uh you know, non hearth bread bread styles, like nobody's business. Six pan, uh a six pan commercial uh convection oven, like the baking things, they're monsters. I would definitely recommend one of those. Now, in terms of I would get a commercial espresso machine, but that's me, and a seltzer rig, which you asked about, and I'll talk about in a minute.
+
+[49:14] I mean, that's kind of you know just stuff that I that I would want. But like once you have an espresso machine that's plumbed, you're never gonna want to go back to something that's not plumbed. Another thing, foot pedals. Put foot pedals on your sink. Let me just say this again.
+
+[49:24] Put foot pedals on your sink. People don't really know how to install them, so you're gonna have to learn to either get a plumber who's willing to work with you or learn to do a little bit of the plumbing yourself. TNS Brass sells a couple of ones that can have I don't want only foot pedals, I want foot pedals and uh wrist action handles uh as well. Here's something that uh I want you to consider. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the kitchen?
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+[49:51] I'm gonna repeat this. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the kitchen when you could just use a foot pedal? My right stuff? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, she said I don't care.
+
+[50:00] But foot pedals, everyone that's ever used them is like, everyone who's like, I talked about like that's ridiculous. Why do you need the foot pedals? And then uh when you when they actually use it, they're like, why have why does everyone not have the foot pedals? Everyone loves the foot pedals. The only problem with the foot pedals is uh cleaning around them can be a difficulty.
+
+[50:15] They make ones that are mounted high so you can clean under them easier, but I didn't have the capability to put that in. Another thing, unusual, but I think is rec uh a nice thing to have is if you can afford uh a six a standard kick is like three and a half inches, like the two by four on its side uh for things. If you can afford six inches and lift everything off the ground, really nice to clean under. And by the way, the Roomba can get underneath a six-inch thing. So it cleans underneath all of my all of my uh uh stuff, which is nice in the kitchen to be able to clean all the way uh underneath everything.
+
+[50:43] Another thing in the kitchen you're gonna want to look out for is uh your movement. I unfortunately now have to be in a galley kitchen. Oh, and light. Just tons of light. If you can, uh uh, I used to, in my old place, my kitchen was uh, you know, not was almost a part of my living room, and I had I put uh strong lights with barn doors on them so that I could shield the light from going into the living room and spilling over.
+
+[51:05] But uh kitchen without light is just it's just stupid. It's just dumb, right? Uh, in organization on it, I mean the way I had it before in my old place, I liked a lot better because it wasn't uh linear right now. Like I said, I'm in a galley. So right now my oven is next to my sink.
+
+[51:20] If you can arrange it so that two people can fit, if you can have like a good four feet uh you know clear space, have the long sink. I had a long I have a long sink with cutting boards that mount in my sink so I can go directly into the dispose all with cuttings, which makes it nice for like you know, speed. But then you can you can cut and prep and wash and then turn around and be at your stove. I like that a lot. I like that a lot.
+
+[51:42] Now, another thing on organization that I would say uh here's my cardinal rule, and it got messed up over time. Uh, but now that I'm back in a new place, I'm able to like exert more control over it. Only ever stack like on like. Never stack like on dislike things. What do I mean by this?
+
+[52:02] I detest nesting bowls where you have a little bowl and a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly, and they're all made of heavy glass, and so I want that one in the middle, bah! And I gotta like get it, and then I gotta root around, or you have baking pants. It's ridiculous. You don't need that many sizes of bowl. You really only need, I have let me look in my head.
+
+[52:21] One, two, three, I have four size of stainless steel bowl. I have the thin, crappy ones that aren't presentation bowls, and I can stack ten of them, and that only takes up like an extra inch and a half of room because they stack so closely together. I have a tiny one I use for tiny mise en plus and for things like olive pits. I have a slightly larger one, a little bit larger one, and a big one that I use for uh salad prep and things like this and and and any time someone puts one inside of the other it's the wrong size I lose my I lose my freaking mind. You know what I mean?
+
+[52:53] I have uh two different sizes of Pyrex measuring uh cups that I use and they're stacked only like on like I have Bay and Marie's I have two sizes they stack like on like and here's another one for you when you're designing consider putting in a speed rack you know uh a you know a tray sheet tray pan right because what do you whenever you why is it that when you make I don't know what you celebrate right but why is it that when you make Christmas cookies or whatever why is it your kitchen gets so hosed? It's because or when you're making pizzas it's because you have no place to put the freaking things when they're done or when they're coming out or why is it that everything gets so ruined is because you have no place in your kitchen to put all this stuff as you're cooking. A speed rack is like it lets you uh you know store sheet trays either halves or fulls um in in in like a tall thing with food on them so then you can have I did you know a couple days ago I made Christmas cookies late because I didn't get to make my mom's well they're my mom's they're actually my great great grandma's bonbon cookies that I like so I made them after Christmas and I just put them in my speed rack blep blep blep blep and I was able to put you know eight dozen cookies into the speed rack and I had to go. So those are what do you think? Some good recommendations?
+
+[54:00] Yes. Now you had one more question and it's regarding seltzer you want to do a seltzer uh rig and use you link to something called soda soda isp so no soda dispenserdepot.com as a turnkey thing. The system they have looks like it will work. I recommend the only valve I recommend currently uh are CM Becker valves for soda. Most valves I don't like, even the style that looked like they emulate the old bash and blessing styles.
+
+[54:28] Most people don't make a decent one. Go to Fox Equipment, FOXX equipment, and look up their number one two C03-208 Ibis 1 faucet tower. That's the one I have, and it is the balls. I love that thing. It really makes very high quality, it dispenses high quality seltzer, and it's got a really nice compensator mechanism so you can adjust the flow rate, and I lose very, very few bubbles off of it.
+
+[54:53] I use a McCann carbonator that I put through a coal plate. I use a Manitowoc ice machine. I have their their business, their business luncheon room one that you can shut off the thing when you want and makes really nice ice cubes. I drilled holes in the side, put a coal plate in, goes through the McCann carbonator, which I run at 100 PSI with a 20-pound CO2 tank. I can post pictures later.
+
+[55:13] But anyway, so that's that's what I use. Kenneth Ing Wait, are we gonna get kicked off the air? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's been a couple weeks since we've been on.
+
+[55:21] So I so next week I have to talk about uh uh uh chip and his egg machine. I have a question from Dave Kleiman regarding gummy bears. I have a question on cooking uh spiny lobsters from Josh and Antigua versus uh versus uh uh our lobsters, which you know I haven't actually I could talk a lot about cooking lobsters, but I haven't cooked a lot of spiny lobster. Uh Matt in Akron asked me about lime juice and how to clarify it without a centrifuge. I have answers, but I won't be able to get it to it.
+
+[55:49] Uh today, Matt McCarrari, your free saw question on gelatin I will get to. Uh and John on a sand bitter and spice question. Uh maybe I'll answer some of these on Twitter if I can do it shortly, or maybe we will get to them next time. But Kenneth Ingber, we'll leave on this. Uh longtime listener and also supporter of the museum, uh, says this.
+
+[56:06] Uh I was just thinking about the Sears all and came up with this question. Is there any danger associated with the angle of the canister? That is, there's gas phase in the upper portion of the canister and liquid phase in the bottom. When you tip the canister, the liquid could be delivered to the head rather than the gas. Does this pose a safety issue?
+
+[56:22] Winter backpackers and cold garage tinkerers deal with this issue because propane and butane are not very good in cold weather. I think it's because of not enough uh gas phase pressure in coal weather is true. That's why you have to change the orifice size if you know you're gonna be working in the cold. So the strategy is to sometimes tip the canister and deliver liquid phase. Sometimes this is an effective strategy, and sometimes you see a warning that this can be very dangerous.
+
+[56:43] Sometimes you see people complaining that the torch flame goes out. I saw in one place that the Burnsomatic talks about needing to use a pressure regulated canister if you're gonna turn it upside down. The literature for the TS 8000 says during use, hold hand torches upright to prevent flare-ups or flashes. So I'm asking about how this might be uh how this issue might affect the sears all. Clearly, burns onatic torches do not regularly explode under common issues.
+
+[57:04] However, the very high temperature and size the sears all head could pose a special danger. I think I remember Dave saying he recommends using the TS 8000 head, but what if you don't use it and just find that whatever your handy neighbor has in his garage? And this being a consumer product, your average user is not going to dependably take any special precautions. Best wishes to Dave, the crew, and you, Nastasha, for a happy new year, Ken. Alright, so the issue here is delivering liquid out of the uh thing and and some torches, the Burns Matic actually has uh some precautions to uh prevent you from dispensing liquid out of it, which is one of the reasons I like the 4000 and the 8,000.
+
+[57:38] If you turn them all the way upside down, yeah, they don't work they don't work as well, but they're meant to work fairly well in as a multi multiple position torch, even if they're not recommended. Iwatani, one of the reasons that the Iwitani is such a pain in the butt is they go through very great um uh pains to have and that's why if you look in a newitani torch, they have a thin tube running through that all the butane runs through to pre-volatilize and it warms it before it gets to where the uh orifice is so that it's always going to be a gas when it comes out, no matter what orientation you hold the torch. Now the issue is not so much one of uh safety. When it flames out, it's gonna flame out. But that's why the reason why the if you look at one of the searsols, the reason why it's angled, why it looks like a you know an old like 60s car front is because um we noticed that uh in our first production and our first uh prototypes that had a flat face.
+
+[58:28] When you turn the torch, the torches we were using all the way uh so that the face was uh parallel to meat or you know, parallel to a table surface, that you would start uh deli would start having problems with liquid delivery, especially when uh not a safety problem, but a problem with the actual flame. And you would get this noise, and you would get a fluttering, and this is especially exacerbated by the fact that you get a lot of um air uh and hot vapor coming back up off of the torch head directly back up in line with the torch. And that's why we angled the searsol head such that the torch would always be slightly inclined, even when the searzole itself was uh perpendicular to or sorry, parallel to uh your work surface. So that's why we did that. Uh it's not prime it it's irritating like like uh those flame mounts and stuff are irritating, but I don't think they particularly pose uh a safety issue.
+
+[59:19] Now, uh torches that don't have this kind of uh nice dispensing feature, they're not really gonna be high enough power anyway to do what you want with a searzole. I really highly recommend uh and I think pretty for the most part, anyone that's buying one kind of uh and we'll go into paints. Eventually we want to make our own torch or you or like link it with a torch sale. But you know, we we couldn't really for that for the first one around. But um, and if I was going to do one, I would definitely make it possible to fire it in any direction uh uh possible.
+
+[59:44] But anyway, that's that's my answer on that. So that's is something we think about quite a bit, and that's why the front head of the Sears All is angled. And we'll get those next questions. I'll either answer some of them on Twitter or we'll get them on next week on Cooking Issues, Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:00:11] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:35] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. For more information, visit Hearstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Users.
+
+[1:01] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Users coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwood Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to around one or so, uh here in the studio as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. I'm I'm multi-computer today.
+
+[1:16] I've got my iPad and my iPhone in one hand and my computer in the other, because it's a little bit of a a research cordal you this morning, which Cordal U is uh my son Booker's uh term for anything that's uh cluster beep. He calls it a Cordelieu named after the I don't think it's after the famous surveyor or the uh the politician who is related to the surveyor, but I think it's after the actual stop on the subway. Yeah. But it's one of those few words that Stas and I, you've you and I both use Cordalie to mean professional email. Yeah, to mean cluster, you know what, and nobody ever questions it.
+
+[1:49] No one ever questions it, so it must be one of those like it's not that it's an on omatopoeia. That's not exactly right, but I think it's like a vocab word they think they didn't study for a test. Right. They're like, oh what's something I don't know. Right, but if so accurately describes, you know, like complete cluster feed that you know that it's like, oh Corlia.
+
+[2:08] And so you know what I mean? Because it sounds like it's all tied up and messed up, you know what I mean? Like we're kinda spread it. Cortel you. We want people to use it, so use it.
+
+[2:18] Use it, use it, use it, and uh, you know, when you do, think of Booker. Uh his birthday today, did I say that? And Dax. Dax and birthday. Uh, Dax and Booker's birthday today, Booker and Dax.
+
+[2:28] Uh three years separated, same birthday, because I'm just that efficient. No, it's uh or I should say my wife, I guess, is that efficient. She's like, we're having babies exactly one day. And that's it. No, but uh yeah, both uh both born same day, three years apart.
+
+[2:46] Uh fun. Fun times. And like they get in arguments about like uh am I am I gonna have the birthday party separate this year, am I not? Uh well it turns out they were not gonna have their birthday parties together, but now they are again. But uh I used to have I used to every year I don't have my s my amazing pizza oven, although I could probably still you know fix my new oven in time to do pizza, but for every year it's been make your own pizzas, but you know, I've had the eight hundred and fifty degree Fahrenheit pizza oven.
+
+[3:11] I I can my there's still a couple days left I can modify, you know, for the but they're like I want I want crappy commercial when I when I say my kids like crappy commercial pizza, I'm not referring to like other fine pizza makers. Like for instance the folks at Robertis who make a delicious fine pizza that I would be proud to have at a birthday party that my kids were were I mean, they like the lowest of the low. I'm not gonna call any particular people out as making a low quality pizza. But whatever. It's it's depressing.
+
+[3:39] They're like, I prefer a low quality pizza. But how do they have that low quality pizza? They got who first I don't know how they got we live near uh we ni live near a major national chain uh chain of low quality pizza purveyors and uh I don't know, they somehow they saw it and then it got hooked up. Who knows how the hell hi kids get hooked into things, you know what I mean? But now they would actually prefer it.
+
+[3:59] And I I mean I I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm not saying I make the best pizza in the world, but uh it's a whole h hell of a lot better than uh this crap that they request. You know, it's got the those commercial pizza, the crust is always terrible. Sauce is always wasted. Well now you're you're giving a chance, uh you're giving a little hook into what they what uh the i look if their ingredients are better that begs the question better than what?
+
+[4:24] What was it before? Yeah, what was it before? Like if this is your better ingredient, like if this is like this is like, you know, this is your you know, the top of your line there, you know, like what are you do like you know, whatever. I'm not even gonna get into it. I'm not I'm not even gonna start.
+
+[4:37] Call your questions to 7184972 eight, that's 7184972128. Joined in the engineering booth. Do we have both of you guys over there now? We have uh Jack and Evan. We have Jack and Evan, yeah.
+
+[4:47] Hi, huh? Hey guys. Happy New Year, Dave. Happy, happy new year. Yeah.
+
+[4:50] Well, I forget we called you out l uh about New Year's last time on the last show, right? But I forget what Stas said something kind of. Well, you know, Nastasha now, whenever she sees someone in Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. Well now you live in Manhattan.
+
+[5:00] How you like in the Manhattan? It's awesome. Everyone who lives in Brooklyn is like I love it here in Brooklyn. Until they move to Manhattan, they're like, Oh. Yeah.
+
+[5:08] Yeah. Oh. Where are you exactly? Not exactly that. Yeah, I'm not giving the exact address here, but uh like uh right on First Street.
+
+[5:16] Uh actually second street, first half. Oh, so you're right right still still near the near the L. Can't give up on the L, right? I'm close enough. No, because that'd be the 14th.
+
+[5:24] He's got the first and you walk up to 14th, it's not that bad. I mean, I walked there from twenty-ninth, whatever today. Uh, not that anybody cares. Okay, we got some questions in from last week that I didn't get a chance to take care of, so let's take care of some of them first. John writes in, hey Dave, Hammer and crew.
+
+[5:39] Uh slowly but surely making my way through the back episodes, which uh make the subway rides go by pretty quickly. Although I do get strange looks when I burst out laughing from something you said. Uh well, I you know, I appreciate that. Hopefully, it was actually intended to be funny and not like the semi-serious things I occasionally say. Uh just became a heritage radio donor uh uh to keep the great program coming.
+
+[5:59] Yay! Thank you. Uh have two quick questions. In a previous podcast, you ended the show talking about sand bitter and alluded to a recipe to reproduce it, but of course ran out of time. Would love to know your thoughts on how to reproduce that.
+
+[6:11] Well, of course, uh, you know, the cooking issues crew loves anything compari uh or apparol related, and sand bitter is the uh small, I think it's made by Pellegrino, right? Sand bitter? I'm not sure. Yeah, I think so. It sounds right.
+
+[6:26] Yeah, but it's red like Kampari, and it has the same basic kind of flavor component. I know it's not the same, please don't send any any nasty things in. But it's got the uh the same thing. So the question is then uh how to make that uh flavor yourself. And uh so, you know, I didn't have an actual recipe recipe, just an I idea for it, but we tested out some um some ideas yesterday.
+
+[6:48] So Kampari and therefore also sand bitter. The bitterness uh is mainly from uh wormwood, right? I mean the worm the like if you if you were to just taste a straight uh decoction of wormwood, uh you would notice that the um that the bitterness of it, that particular bitterness note is the bitterness note from the end of uh compari, right? So there you have it. Uh there's also, I think, some gention in it, which is another uh bittering agent.
+
+[7:18] Uh, and of course, the citrus peels. Now, I believe Kampari and sandbitter use a um use a uh like a bitter orange peel like a quinotto or something like that, which I didn't have available to me when I was testing. Uh now, of course, there's also all sorts of other flavors that they layer on top as top notes, but the base notes are the citrus uh peels, the uh wormwood, and possibly I think gention. We added it to the recipe we tested. So uh now without alcohol, how do you do it?
+
+[7:48] The best way is a heat steep. Now I could get into more kind of technical stuff trying out the ISI infusions and whatnot, but I figured for a first guess, let's try to do just a straight old-fashioned heated teas, right? And you can heat it fairly. You're not gonna maybe you're gonna affect the aromatics somewhat as opposed to a long steep, but doing it in water, uh I figured it would be a good first approximation. So uh we did five grams of each of those three, uh, each of those four flavors, grapefruit peel, orange peel, sweet oranges from uh the U.S.
+
+[8:15] that we didn't have the good uh, you know, stuff. We got it at the what's called the dual specialty shop, which is similar to a Calustian's here in uh in New York. Uh wormwood, F and Genchin, all at five grams per 200 mils. Uh we nuked them in the microwave so we wouldn't get too much boil off, and then let them steep under mild agitation for five minutes. And then we made mixtures of those uh together.
+
+[8:38] And we used a hundred mils of the grapefruit, a hundred mils of the orange, fifteen mils of the wormwood decoction, five mils of the gention. To that we added 20 grams of sugar to take it to about a uh 10 and a half bricks uh solution. Um a pinch of salt to round it out. Chilled it and carbonated it. Now it's it's a it's a it's a golden brown.
+
+[8:59] It's a reach golden brown. What commercial used to they used to say golden brown all the time? But it's in my head since I was a little kid. Like I can't say golden brown. I have to say a golden brown.
+
+[9:12] But the um someone will remind me what commercial that was. Uh but so that tasted pretty much like sand bitter. Now what you it like compari, uh compari when they make it comes out light brown. Uh so you know, they color it with color. They used to use uh Cochinillo like squished up bug stuff, but they don't use the squished up bug stuff anymore.
+
+[9:32] So uh then we tried though, interestingly, I need I feel felt that it needed more uh grapefruit than that, and more and more orange than that. So we tried just doing a straight base of uh 220 grams water, 20 grams of sugar, uh one point.125 grams of gention, point three seven five grams of wormwood, uh 3.75 grams of orange and five grams of grapefruit peel uh for you know five minutes deep on a heat tea, and it was good, but it didn't taste quite as much like sand bitter as the other one. We that needed uh it was maybe a little too much grapefruit and and then it needed a little more wormwood than that, but just so you know, uh that's what we tried out. And so, John, you can give that a test for your sand bitter alternative. And of course, like I say, you can add the top notes and stuff, but that's pretty much the base.
+
+[10:20] I think even Stas had she been there because she was she was not there when we tested it, she was at the Stanford, what is it called? Stanford Alumni Women New York Network Board. Say that again. Yeah. Uh Stanford Women Network New York Board meeting.
+
+[10:38] Young. Young. No, not young, not young. Not young. Well, they think they're old, but well, and and uh so they had a uh what was what they call it?
+
+[10:44] Board meeting. But it was like also a a mixer, right? Yeah, a mixer with with icebreaker or something. Icebreaker, that's what they call it. Icebreaker.
+
+[10:55] And what did what did they serve for their icebreaker? Ice water. Whoa! Whoa. Stas.
+
+[11:03] Yeah. Stash. It's rough. Just uh. If you're gonna be on the board and you're gonna have something like you have an icebreaker, you know, ice water does not an icebreaker make.
+
+[11:16] You gotta take that thing over. You gotta you just gotta take that thing over. All right. Uh second question, John had in regards to spice storage for home use. What is your current system?
+
+[11:25] I have been using four or six ounce round paint or cream jarls jars, jarls from uh Pearl Paint and storing them in a drawer, which serves a dual purpose of keeping out light and away from heat. However, I'm running out of drawer space and now looking for more options. Uh hope all's well. Uh John. So the b the the problem with spice storage is I mean, a lot of times it's good to keep it away from uh light.
+
+[11:47] Some some spices are light sensitive. For me, the big problem is you need to see what's where spices are. Like I have a bunch of stuff and then you end up not using the spices you have because you don't know where they are. My old kitchen, which I just left, I had a bunch of um knife magnets that I mounted under my cabinet in a strip. Like I had like six feet of or five feet of knife magnets, and then I bought jars with um metal tops and just smacked them up so that you could have a line of spices.
+
+[12:16] Uh in I haven't done that in my new kitchen yet. We're still figuring out exactly how. Right now I'm not so happy with my spice storage. I have a very narrow shelf pantry on one side with uh four-inch shelves that go all the way up and it's nowhere near a window, so I don't worry about light. And I'm gonna have spices there, but the problem is it's not dense enough.
+
+[12:34] The shelves are bottle height right now and need to make them shorter so I can go. But I usually put them into small, uh small containers as small as they will uh will go, unless it's something that I use a lot of at a time, like coriander, because I do a lot of infusions with coriander and those things I keep in quart containers. Um but I don't have as good a solution as I had in my old kitchen yet with the knife knife uh you know what I'm talking about with the magnetic knife things, right? They make fantastic spice storage things. People used to come and be like, where'd you get that?
+
+[13:00] I'm like, it's a knife rack, you jerk, you jerk. I didn't say that because why would I say that? It's not they're not jerks just because they didn't know how I did it, right? Okay. Uh Matt Mikari wrote in uh because I don't think I answered this about uh gelatin, did I?
+
+[13:12] I think you did. Did I? You can go over guys. Oh no, I won't. If I answered it, we'll figure out over the break whether I answered about freestyle and gelatin.
+
+[13:19] And if if I did, then you know, uh, whatever. Uh Matt Nacron wrote in about clarifying lime juice. I watched a couple of videos on the web where you talk about clarifying lime juice. You mentioned that Petanex ultra SPL doesn't work because the pH is too low. My question is could you raise the pH enough for it to work without significantly impacting the flavor?
+
+[13:36] Maybe using sodium citrate or something like that. Is that a dumb idea? I'd like to there are no dumb ideas, just dumb people. Uh I'd like to be able to clarify lime juice without a centrifuge, and I'm not very good at massaging the bag. Well, uh, not very many people, uh, Matt, are very good at massaging the bag.
+
+[13:54] A good way actually around massaging the bag, if you if you don't mind doing the agar, but um don't aren't good at at getting a good yield out of it, is use a salad spinner. And that's what I teach a lot of people to do, is is yeah, you have to make sure that whatever your draining cloth is that you tie off at the top into like a Santa's Christmas sack or use like a uh that's gross or like a nut milk bag or something like that and tie it off with that stuff like that Nastasha gets an image the nut milk bag nut milk bag tie it off at the top throw it into a salad spinner and give it a good spin and uh that's a good way to ensure that you don't uh for over uh squeeze a bag when you're trying to do uh quick agar clarification now if you uh I wouldn't try raising the uh the pH uh on it I don't don't think you're gonna have satisfactory results if you don't mind losing a lot of product it also depends on how clear you need it if you just need it to be clear because you're carbonating and you don't need it to be crystal clear here here's how it works. So my normal centrifuge uh technique is I add pectinex ultra spl even though it doesn't work a hundred percent it does help uh in clarifying lime juice which is you know very acidic I add pectinx ultra spl and um Keselsaw right so Kesel saw is a wine finding agent and they call it D1. It's part of a two uh two part system right so you add the SPL and the Kiesel saw together you can get it any homebrew shop Keselsaw and chitasan together. So I add um two grams per liter you don't want to add more and you don't want to add less.
+
+[15:26] When you're working with uh charged things like that if you're way over or way under you can um you can reduce the efficacy or even like make it anti-effective you can stabilize things if you add too much. So you want to add two grams per liter of that you want to stir it thoroughly wait 15 minutes and then you want to add uh two grams of kitasan which is from uh shrimp shells. It's a polysaccharide solution to that same thing and stir it. Now, if you let that settle, that will will clarify. It will settle out, it will still be slightly cloudy.
+
+[15:57] Slightly cloudy. If you then add and you let it sit for an hour or two, it will settle out and be slightly cloudy. If you add, after another 15 minutes uh after you add the chitosan, another two grams per mil of Kesel Sol, stir it and let it sit for an hour or two. The stuff on the top will be crystal clear, right? But the problem is your yield will be very low.
+
+[16:21] It will not settle nearly as much as the uh one that you only did the Kiesel Sol and Kita San to. But the stuff that's at the very top will be crystal clear. Expect yields on the order of 30%, though, of crystal clear stuff. And you can just pour it off the top. Make sure you do it in a round container.
+
+[16:37] So if it's if you just want to test that, it's very easy to test, and maybe just the uh the the you know um not perfect clarification of Kesel Sol and Kita San, which gets very good yields on the order of like 60 to 75%. Maybe that's clear enough for you. But give it a shot. Uh let me know how it goes. Um Josh from uh Coolidge Antigua wrote in uh what a guan.
+
+[17:03] That's what you said for like what's going on. Uh was wondering what uh what weird no, I mean it's Antigua, man. Uh uh was wondering if you can explain any differences in low temperature cooking between North Atlantic lobster and spiny rock lobster. Also, uh, would you explain um the butter poaching that I did? How do you kill the lobster?
+
+[17:21] And finally, what's up with using dry lupini uh beans? They take forever to get the alkaloid taste out. How do you cook them? I don't have an answer on the lupini beans yet. I gotta I gotta work on that.
+
+[17:31] Also, I might add, I don't have a firm answer we had before on the question about making your own koji from uh from uh what's it called? Uh homemade, you know, from wild products instead of using uh somebody else's uh starter. I was supposed to get in touch with the guys at Mamafuku Labs who do this all the time, but uh we kept cross crossing paths. I haven't gotten in touch with them, and I haven't been able to find anything definitive other than people who didn't seem like they could make authoritative statements, making authoritative statements online. So I'm gonna hold off on that.
+
+[17:58] I apologize on the Koji thing, and we'll get back to the Lupiti beans. Now, on the lobster, I'm gonna be also unhelpful. I don't we you know, here up in in the in these uh northern areas, though we only get live um, you know, mm you know, Canadian Maine lobster, you know, Homaris, you know, the American style uh lobster. We don't get any of the spiny or rock lobster types live typically to cook with up here. Uh that's a long way of saying I don't have a lot of experience um cooking them.
+
+[18:29] Uh I will say uh this. Uh because you know, I've had I've cooked them not live, and I find most of the time and and I've also cooked uh you know regular, you know, American style lobsters not live. And I've never really liked cooking with uh frozen um lobster. Use does you ever had a good frozen lobster that you liked? No.
+
+[18:50] In fact, in fact, I did uh I remember once I did a uh uh uh um a class at the French culinary and I was doing lobster, low temp lobster, and they you know, I could only get the frozen for some reason because I had to teach it that day, and I've never had a worse low temperature product in my life than the than the the frozen lobster. So anything I've done with the with uh the the rock lobster slash spiny lobster is not I'm just gonna go ahead and say that it's not uh you know not necessarily applicable. Now I will also say this about regular lobster is that I tend to not like the low temperature, I tend to not like low temperature cooking on on lobster in general I used to try to do it at like 60 degrees Celsius you want to keep lobster cooking times and this is going to be true by the way even though you don't the uh lobster like the like the the northern lobster like the you know the clawed lobster and the non-clawed spiny lobster they're not actually that closely related did you know that no they're not really that closely related I mean they're both crustaceans but they're fairly separate like the spiny lobsters are the ones that you see on the internet that they they march in long lines and it whereas like like the American lobsters much like Nastasha and myself like to keep themselves don't like to really congregate with others of their type so yeah so they're they're they're not like hyper closely related but uh all crustaceans share certain cooking uh axioms that need to be um axioms that needs to be um need to be looked at so for instance the exception of shrimp which I think actually freezes pretty well although sweet shrimp fresh sweet shrimp is pretty damn good right you ever had those the live sh the live shrimp they're cooked right away they mostly they eat them raw that's why maybe but they're good uh but the um you know the the lobsters any of those things I I wouldn't like I say eat eat frozen but if you cook them for too long even especially at low temperature but if you cook them too long in general uh they get incredibly mushy and unpalatable. So when you're doing any sort of low temperature work with with these creatures you're gonna want to um you're gonna want to keep the cooking time under uh 15 uh minutes I'd say 15 20 minutes so when I do large, large lobsters, and I've cooked lobsters up to about 25 pounds, like you know, northern lobsters, what what I'll do is I'll do a a steam, I used to do uh a pressure steam kill, then would cut it for a couple of minutes, cut it open, and then cook all the parts separately, keeping cutting it and keeping each cooking time underneath that kind of like you know, 10-15-minute uh time window for creating mushiness. Now, what I do now, my typical technique now is uh because the studies I've shown, now there's people that are interested in crustaceans and whether or not crustaceans feel pain in the sense of pain as opposed to just no seception.
+
+[21:36] No cception is things that no no cception means that when uh there is something that we would consider a noxious stimulus, let's say heat or uh or you know, someone punching you in the face, you avoid it, right? That's no cception, the ability to avoid what is that what we would consider see as not noxious or dangerous or harmful stimuli, right? No cception. This is different from pain. So pain is a mental state um relating to your feelings, right?
+
+[22:08] So you can feel pain. So that so for instance, I can create a uh a robot with um you know sensors that can avoid heat, and that is kind of a nociceptive sensor system, but the lot the robot doesn't feel pain. So the question is do uh crustaceans feel pain, right? And um, or is there avoidance of noxious things just uh you know, no seception? And there's a lot of there's a lot of heavy-duty work being done by people on either side of this, uh saying that yes, they can, no, they can't, and a lot of it's based on whether the research is being done, is based on whether hermit crabs um you know, can make choices about what shells they go into, depending on what level of pain they have to endure, or what level of noxious stimuli, whatever, it's it's complicated.
+
+[22:53] But the fact of the matter is, whether whether they feel pain or not, when you boil it, this is a long way of getting to it, um, every crustacean that I've cooked live and tested, if you administer anesthesia to it before you kill it, it tastes better, right? And so then the thing is whether or not they feel pain, if you remove their ability to sense noxious stimuli before you kill them, they taste better. And so uh and and similarly, if you kill them quickly by knifing them through now, they don't have a centralized brain like we do, they have a series of ganglion that go around. But if you sever the uh you know, both the the ganglia in the top and the and the esophageal ganglion underneath, you sever those with a knife, um, they also taste better than if you don't. The problem is is that as you know, um crustaceans don't have, and I've tested with crabs uh on the anesthesia.
+
+[23:44] I've tested crabs, I've tested uh you know lobsters a bunch of times, um, several varieties of crab. The um uh the problem is is that the the blood system of the animal and the fl and a lot of some of the flavor is contained i in an open circulatory system. It's called the hemolhemolynth, hemolith, whatever it, whatever it is, hemolymph. I can never pronounce it. I never eh, I'm terrible.
+
+[24:05] You know how bad I am at pronouncing that kind of crap, especially if it's not right in front of me. Anyways, uh, and so you don't want to lose that flavor. So what I do typically it nowadays is I I cut through the ganglion over a closed uh thing, save those juices, then I uh take out the meat uh as much as I can without mangling it, and I take the shell that you can remove, remove the gills because they're nasty, remove anything that I think is gonna be nasty, cook down the shells uh uh with um uh oil, butter, and then I combine that with the juices, put them in Ziploc bags, and do a quick poach out in high temperature because I actually prefer high temperature uh cooking, like you know, simmer like 80 uh for crustaceans for under 10 minutes because I have the pieces cut small enough for it to do it, and I'm sure that will work on a rock or spiny uh spiny as well as it will work on a regular lobster. That was a long way answering that, huh? What was that gross thing that we had on the sushi at Jiro?
+
+[25:01] That was like a shrimp. Okay, so uh not to call out Jiro who dreams of sushi all the time, uh, but yeah, so he did squilla uh like mantis shrimp, you know, a mantis shrimp. And man, that was that was some mushy business, right? Yeah. I'm you know, I look, I have to be honest, like those things don't taste very good uh, you know, cooked like that.
+
+[25:25] The thing was a mush bag. That was like the worst. I mean, I I think a mantis shrimp is difficult anyway to cook. But you know what's interesting is that uh the rock lobster much more closely related to a mantis shrimp than it is to a lobster. My memory serves.
+
+[25:39] Because it's like it things uh go into I have to I have to go look at there's there's like where the crustacean kind of families break down, but I believe that slipper lobsters and mantis shrimp are more closely related to spinies than uh than our, you know, yeah, northern robbers are. Uh okay. Um what break? Yeah, 1230. All right, commercial break.
+
+[26:02] We'll be right back with cooking issues. Today's Hurst Ranch Grass fed beef. Pasture raised on a hundred and fifty thousand acres in central California. Hearst ranch grass fed beef, free range, sustainably produced. Humane.
+
+[27:34] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, there's really nothing like hearing you scream through the glass when that commercial plays. One day I'm gonna send Brian Kenny, who is our awesome pal over at Hearst Ranch, a video of that. You guys don't even tape the uh when like the host reaction to the Hearst Ranch Grassfed.
+
+[27:55] I might have to start doing that. Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I mean that it's a good tune. It's a tune, yeah. I mean you you actually you actually saw it live.
+
+[28:04] You were one of the few people that got to see that song. Oh, yeah. Yeah performed live. Yeah. Well you gotta go live with the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef.
+
+[28:11] That's right. Yeah. I remember Joel Gargano, I think did a cover of that song for us once. Yeah. Uh screaming metal cover, yeah.
+
+[28:18] That was nice. Do we have do we have that? Uh I have to look for it. Maybe play it on the uh on the outro. We will play it on the out, yeah.
+
+[28:24] Yeah. Uh so Dave Kleiman wrote in last week. Uh I don't think I answered this about gummy bears, did I? No. Um he has a follow-up question.
+
+[28:32] Because remember I did the kitchen talk about like uh kitchen design. I talked about the foot pedals. So he has this new faucet that he wants to um um put foot pedals on. The brand of foot pedals I use, I use TNS brass, but Chicago Faucet also makes several brands. The problem with um faucets, if you want to adapt them, you have to choose a faucet where the mixing valve, the mixing valves are separate from the actual spout.
+
+[29:00] So if you can if you can get to where the spout is like so like I also have TNS as my faucets, and I chose uh from them a uh specifically a faucet where uh the mi the mixing valve got put into a T into the spout underneath the deck of my sink. And so what you do there is you just add um because it had a sprayer, right? So here's a here's a here's a way to look at it. So most sprayers that you have attached to, you know, non commercial, not TNS like a spray valve one, but sprayers um have a diverter valve in them such that when you open the sprayer, then all of a sudden the sprayer is connected to uh you know it it it stops the flow to the to the spout. The one that I have doesn't work that way.
+
+[29:45] It's got a manual off and on for the sprayer, so I could tee in underneath at the spout and supply water where they meant to push water out to the sprayer. So I put an extra tee underneath my deck and attached my um my foot petals, and the I use a hot and cold foot pedal that the mixing is done there, so there's only one output for my foot pedals, and plumbed it directly into the spout via the extra tea I added. So that's how that's how I did it. But every faucet is different. You need some way to get to the um to the spout of your faucet that doesn't um that you know, before you have to open or you know, in other words, it's independent of the actual mixing valve that you have on top of your deck with the faucet.
+
+[30:29] Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yes. Kind of okay. Um and he also wrote in last week. I want to make gummy bears with only centrifuged fruit fruit juices and gelatins.
+
+[30:39] Can I do it with no sugar? How? Yeah, sure. It's reduced the hell out of the uh fruit juices until the bricks is where you need it to be, so that you don't need to add any um any extra uh sugars. Um you have to so typically I was looking up some commercial uh gelatin stuff, I forget where I got it, got it from, but um, you're looking at for a commercial recipe, seven to eight kilograms of 250 bloom gelatin, which is I think roughly where Knox is in that area, uh dissolved in uh 14 to 16 liters of water with uh 37 kilograms of um sucrose and 45 kilograms of glucose uh plus acid, sugar, and flavor.
+
+[31:20] So you're looking like now it's very important there, especially if you choose fruit juices, that you don't have one that has too much invert in it, right? So there's juices that have a high sucrose percentage, and there's juices that have uh already broken down into invert, which would mean that it's uh fructose and uh glucose instead of sucrose. Now that you want some uh inversion, you want some, you know, glucose and fructose in there uh because it's gonna help with uh modifying the texture and uh preventing you know crystallization. But if you have too much of that and not enough sucrose in the mix, then you're gonna get a kind of weeping, it's gonna be sticky and tacky. So these guys for their recipe use 45 grams of glucose syrup, which isn't really glucose.
+
+[32:05] I don't know how much sugar that is, and 37 of so let's say that's I don't know how much percentage that's actually glucose and how much of it is something else. But you're looking at least in the realm, at least in the realm of of a liquid that is I'm gonna want to say like 66 or something like that. I have to look up what kind of bricks of liquid you would need to get it to work, but I think it's somewhere in that area, like 66 bricks, which means you're gonna need to do a lot of reduction. I'll do some more calculations. Maybe someone else is uh who listens is a commercial candy, you know, blah blah blah, and we'll figure it out.
+
+[32:40] Now it's pretty easy to do a reduction of a fruit juice down to those levels. Uh but um if you don't want to alter the flavor at those levels, you're gonna need to do it under a vacuum. And I've done it, I've taken strawberry under vacuum down to I think almost 70 uh bricks, and it was delicious, but you know, you need a roto vap for it, which is a pain in the butt, right? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[33:03] Yeah. Uh okay, and did anyone figure out whether I answered that freeze thought question? I think I think you did. C. Gelatin in the write-up.
+
+[33:11] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, if uh if I did not, then uh call us out. Yeah, call call us out, you know. Call call us for the you know, call us out for the uh jerks that we are.
+
+[33:23] Uh right? We are jerks. Yeah, known fact. Hey Dave, what do you think of the uh someone wrote us in about canned soup sucking? Yeah, give me the uh let me know.
+
+[33:32] What was the exact uh what was the exact thing about it? What is what does this make sense? Why does it need so much salt? Why does it taste worse than soup served in other ways, containers or bags? What makes canned soup worse?
+
+[33:45] I don't know. I've never done uh a lot of uh side by sides. Do you find canned soups to be bad stuff? I don't really use canned soups. I like them if I need them, if I'm sick or whatever.
+
+[33:54] If you need them if you're sick, if you don't want to cook your own soup. Right, it takes a long time. Um I think look, I think frankly, the the reason why people add salt to soups is not preservative. There's no need to add salt to a canned soup, excuse me, canned soup to preserve it, because uh they can that sucker. Maybe also I don't think they need to go under I mean a lot of problems with soups in general, and I've never done a bag soup tasting, but um, you know, they have to cook the they have to cook the snot out of them.
+
+[34:23] You know what I mean? And so certain things are not gonna be I mean certain things are delicious pressure cooked, in which case they'd probably be even better under those high temperature regimes, but certain ones um aren't. But the salt is not there as a preservative in a canned soup. The salt's there because people like salt in their soup. Like Stas, can you imagine tomato soup without salt?
+
+[34:41] How gross would tomato soup be without salt? Really gross. Right? Are you imagining tomate tomato soup with a grilled cheese sandwich? And then and then you're like, oh my god, it's gonna be awesome, and then there's no salt.
+
+[34:53] That hurts, right? Yeah. It hurts. I guess part of the question here, Dave is uh wondering if like bags are gonna be the new way to serve soup, if like you know, Campbells might shift to bags instead of cans, if that would make any difference. Well, I don't know.
+
+[35:07] I mean, like, for instance, like it could be uh in other words the the the question here is do is the can imparting a flavor, and when people say that things taste tinned, what does that mean, right? So, like, what is that actually causing the flavor? You know how like everyone always says, once you open your can, you can't store you can't store the stuff in the can anymore. It's gonna taste canned. You ever heard of that?
+
+[35:28] No. You never heard that? Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, you've heard that. Yeah.
+
+[35:31] Uh and like maybe it's true, maybe it's not. The can doesn't in remember, the cans that we buy are coated with crap on the inside of it. It's not typically supposed to be in most of these things touching the can. It's touching this weird film that I don't really remember what it's made out of on the inside of the can. Uh look, I can look into it if I can remember to look into it.
+
+[35:49] Someone sends me a text, I can look into whether anyone's done an actual hardcore study on taste of cans uh versus uh not. If it's if there is a a soup that doesn't respond well to being cooked at extremely high temperatures, right, because it's gonna degrade the vegetables or whatever other thing is a problem with it, it's gonna be thing, then you could put it in a bag and you could do um you could do pasteurization using uh high hydrostatic pressure. So if there is a soup that doesn't want to go through the processing that goes through canning to get if it's an actual processing problem versus the can itself, then there's the possibility of using a bag to do something like high hydrostatic pressure as a pasteurization technique that might have some sort of benefit. But again, I don't know because it's off the top of my head. Do you think soda tastes different in cans?
+
+[36:36] See, I do, but I don't know if that's mental or not. Most people who have cans of things for sodas and beers think that the stuff tastes better in a can. Yeah, same. That's that's how I feel usually. I think like a 20-ounce, you know, bottle of coke versus a can of coke, the can always tastes better to me.
+
+[36:53] I don't know why. Well, I know why, because bottles like plastic bottles suck for uh oxygen permeability, I mean or for carbon dioxide permeability. So they, you know, like the the a 20-ounce bottle, if you were to walk into a coke plant or Pepsi, I'm not saying Coke, you know what I mean? Although Coke. If you were to walk into uh one of the no no offense, I like Pepsi.
+
+[37:13] Actually, I only drink okay. When I drink for Pepsi. When I drink sodas, I drink diet sodas, and I think even the people from Pepsi would have to admit that diet Coke is a better diet soda than Diet Pepsi. Right? And you don't drink diet, so you don't know.
+
+[37:27] I don't know, whatever. I mean, maybe they probably would not. Oh my god, it probably just pissed someone off. Anyway, uh Stas prefers Pepsi. Mm-hmm.
+
+[37:35] There you have it. Uh and I don't drink sugarful sodas much, so I don't know. Anyway, uh if you were to taste one right off the line, right? Dr. Pepper, we both enjoy Dr.
+
+[37:44] Pepper. Yeah. Uh the if you were to if you were to uh get one right off the line, they would taste probably identical, Jack. But if you uh let it sit for any length of time, the bottle's gonna start losing carbonation much faster than the can. Cans also easier to chill down than a bottle, so often you'll get under-chilled uh under-chilled sodas in bottles.
+
+[38:05] And the same holds true for beers. Also, cans are a hundred percent light tight. And so, you know, if you were to have someone that were to choose uh a bottle that wasn't good at uh non-skunking, and then they were to use um real hops instead of those weird extracts that don't skunk, then um, you know, you'd have those issues as well. So can light tight, can gastight, can easy to chill, and plus when you're done with a can, you can crush it and hurl it. You know, if you if you grew up doing that sort of thing.
+
+[38:39] Maybe I did. Maybe I didn't. Uh right? What do you think? Yeah?
+
+[38:44] Yeah. Um. We have a question in. Hello, Dave, Jack, Nastasha, and company. Uh, I have some questions for you.
+
+[38:53] I think this is from Mark, but he's got an interesting name, uh spelling of the name, right? Mark with the C and the K. Is that yeah, anyway. Uh I have some questions for you. Uh I'm listening to your backlog.
+
+[39:04] Uh but I'm living in Italy and calling is a bit difficult. Can you guys call in on Skype or V I don't know what Viber is. Must be Italian. Italian Skype. So Jack, can people call in via Skype?
+
+[39:16] You know, we never take calls via Skype because they usually sound horrible, but in this case, maybe next week we'll try to get one of these computers to I'll have to look into that. Skype ended up. Oh yeah. Uh we gotta get the the Friday night. But the the uh the nah that song's going through my head, I'm not gonna be able to think.
+
+[39:33] Uh uh, but the um yeah, but I mean like we have we have a good number of international uh folk. Maybe we could set up a Skype thing for them, no? Yeah, we'll look into that. Is it it always sounds bad? Even if you just do voice-only Skype and not the not the Not the video, that might help.
+
+[39:50] We could always do the phone Skype too. Yeah, because I think I think it's the video Skype is the one that always hangs up, right? Yeah. And I don't mean hangs up like I mean hangs up like a bad anyway, so but it's a possibility. Okay.
+
+[40:05] So I wondered about the following. When you cut up an onion in a kitchen machine, which I think means for us like a Roboku or a or a cuisinar or something like this, but I'm gonna start calling it a kitchen machine. That could be anything. No, I like no, but that's the thing. That's what I love.
+
+[40:17] Like, I like any sort of thing that holds things, I'm like, uh, it's a bucket. You know what I mean? Like, uh, get the bucket, you know what I mean? But now I'm gonna call everything the kitchen machine. I freaking love that.
+
+[40:25] Like that, like if I got nothing else out of today's show, I got kitchen machine. So uh anyways, uh, whenever you cut up an onion in a kitchen machine, it starts to taste weird. I'd say oxidized, uh, is that what happens? If you make a sauce with those onions or a meat patties with it, you'll still taste it. I don't mind chopping by hand, but machines can be handy when stressed for time.
+
+[40:45] Uh staying with alliums, do you ha also have an idea that lots of garlic has an off-tast. I once read it was a fungal infection. Anything that you can do about it. I grew my own garlic and never had any problems. Uh maybe that's because uh it was gone in no time.
+
+[40:58] Um here's another question, but I'm gonna get these to these first. So the second question with the fungal infection, I haven't been able to find anything yet uh on on that, but I didn't get a chance to go look at my uh uh you know alliums book by uh Eric Block, which is kind of the book on that. So if there was an off taste due to uh fungal uh stuff, then there would be that. Garlic ages drastically and changes in flavor over time as it's held. And as you know, because you grow your own garlic, you've got to cure the garlic for it to be optimum, but then I think past that curing point, it can change over time, and God knows how long the garlic in a regular supermarket's been sitting there and just desiccating and turning to garbage, garbage.
+
+[41:40] Well, you don't like most of the garlic you get in the uh in the supermarketto, right? No, no, no. Yeah. So you know that that could be it too. But I'm gonna I'll do some researching on fungal infections in garlic.
+
+[41:50] That sounds gross, right? So gross. Yeah, because Saz does hates a fungus. Yeah. I'm not even looking what I just saw, the face she made.
+
+[41:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you know a Nastasha at all and and you know, plant fungus, and you like, yeah. Like if you show her a leaf that has those weird things coming up out of it, the like a fungus gets on the leaf and you get those weird leaf things that pop up, those bumps. I have chills right now. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:11] What was the word? Spores, right? Spores. Spool. Yeah, yeah, she hates she hates a spore.
+
+[42:14] Spoo. Spo you know what she hates even more than spore? Sporulate. But uh the process of making spores. Sporulation.
+
+[42:28] Okay. Yeah. Uh but regards the onion. So onions and any allium, actually, now they all have different uh, you know, whether you're using uh an onion, a leek, a garlic, uh, or you know, elephant garlic, any one of these things, they all have sulfur compounds in them that start out being relatively uh, you know, uh odorless and tasteless, but then when they are crushed, react when the cells are crushed, react with enzymes to create the classic kind of pungent uh alum garlic onion flavors that we know, and most of us, you know, if you have a soul, love. Uh I think there's all these people, I don't like onions, and then they're like every literal I was like literally everything I've ever cooked for you in your whole freaking life has onions in it.
+
+[43:10] You know what I'm saying? Like can't you can't cook without onions. Can't I mean you can. Chainists don't believe in using onions because they inflame the passions. So they use they use as a feterna instead, which is fundamentally a substitute for the allium that apparently doesn't inflame the passions the way an onion you ever feel inflamed by an onion?
+
+[43:26] No. By a cooked onion? Yeah, me neither. But uh, you know, but that's because we're so saturated with uh with inflamed passions in our culture. You know, on every billboard there's inflamed passions, and so you know, onion is like, you know, peeing in the ocean to raise the tide compared to the inflamed passions we get here over here.
+
+[43:42] You know, imagine if like if that was your main problem in life is like the fact that the onions were getting you all hot and bothered. Yeah, that'd be kind of cool. I yeah, I guess. I don't know. Anywho, uh I don't know where I I don't know what I got into that.
+
+[43:55] But anyway, so like it pretty much, I mean my wife doesn't like and she gets so like thanks for she doesn't listen. She won't get mad at me. She doesn't like raw onions. Me neither. Really?
+
+[43:59] Yeah, they give me nightmares. Nightmares? You mean once you eat them, you have nightmares? Mm-hmm. Or thinking about eating them gives you nightmares.
+
+[44:11] Once eaten, I have nightmares. Once eaten, then nightmares. So they inflame your inflame your passions. Stas is a genus. She's gonna put a thing over her face so she hasn't eaten any bugs and sweep the ground before, man.
+
+[44:22] It's a whole new this is a conversion for Stas. It's amazing. Uh anyway, so both Nastasha and my wife, not huge fans of raw onions, but burgers and raw onions. No? I like the idea a lot.
+
+[44:34] I do, but I just it doesn't agree with me. What about when we slice them really thin and and uh flash pickle them with uh vinegar? Yeah, I like that. Alright, okay. So okay, that then I don't have to go crazy because I think it's just like the intense fli like to me the bracing nature of a raw onion on like a burger or on a bagel, like with locks and tomato, like it's that bracing thing that cuts through the fattiness of the rest of it.
+
+[45:00] Yeah. Like a raw onion cuts through a fatty flavor like nobody's business. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, so we're we're off topic. So when you when you when you crush uh them, they taste uh fundamentally different because more of the cells are ruptured and more of those reactions take place.
+
+[45:18] Now, uh if you look Harold McGee, friend of the show, and friend of ours, not just a show. I mean, like, you know, he's a legit friend, he's good man. Uh he did a Curious Cook back when he was writing that that thing for the uh not the book, but when he was writing the New York Times um uh column called Curious Cook, he did one on this subject, and in fact, it's a review as well of Eric Bloch's book, Allium. So if you can go online, you can read the whole thing online and it explains it. Remember when Harold McGee almost slipped on a banana peel?
+
+[45:46] Whoa, so we were at Harvard one day and we're walking down the thing, and you know, Harold McGee, if you never met Harold, he's like, you know, he's like pretty tall guy, right? He's like thin, he's like super dignified looking, right? But Harold's a dignified looking dude. You know what I'm saying? He usually has on like some form of like, you know, jacket.
+
+[46:04] You know what I mean? The patches on the elbow. Like, you know, he's like looks like he he looks like you would think Harold McGee would look, like a dignified, like nice guy. You know what I'm saying? And so we're walking in the in the Harvard Square, and swear to swear to God, he stepped on and did the did the leg in the air.
+
+[46:21] He the McGee is a runner, by the way, so he has good balance, and like, you know, he's like, you know, very fit because he's uh he runs like quite a bit. So but the leg actually went up, but he caught himself, he didn't go down. Look down, swear to god it was a banana peel. He like McGee almost went down on the ground, like McGill of Gorilla style on a freaking banana peel. And we were both and I were like, oh my god, did Harold McGee almost get taken out by like the oldest food joke cartoon trick in the book?
+
+[46:52] It's nuts, right? I don't know. Midi, what made you think of that? You said Harold McGee. I said Harold McGee, so you thought of banana peels?
+
+[47:00] No, I remember that. That is what reminds me of Harold McGee. The banana peel incident. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[47:06] That's not most people's association. Anywho, so you can go read that, and uh Stas hates anyhow, so that's why I'm gonna use it every every few years. Oh, only on business emails. Oh, in business emails. So uh also more reactions, secondary reactions take place.
+
+[47:19] So if you crush something before you cook it, the longer it sits, the more it's gonna build up those kinds of harsher uh flavors that you are responding to when you cut it in the kitchen machine. So uh you're causing a lot of reactions to take place quickly because it's mashing the heck out of them. Uh and secondly, they're probably sitting around because you're doing a lot of prep steps in larger cooking if you're going to use the kitchen machine. And so if you don't want those flavors, you're gonna want to slice with a very fine knife, do as little damage as possible. And a lot of the people, I think like Cooks Illustrated, and I don't know whether it was back in the days Kenji was working for them or not, but it sounds like a Kenji thing.
+
+[47:51] Kenji all Lopez. Uh, you know, if you do the test of slicing an onion across ways versus uh pole to pole, and whenever pull the pole, now I have that uh you can dance song going through my head. Oh geez. Uh but you know, you rupture less tissue that way, and so you get less of those aromas. So you could do do that test.
+
+[48:09] But yeah, it's really it's unavoidable. You could pre uh blanch them before you put them in, and you'll get less of that of those reactions happening. Uh so you could try that if you really still want to do that. Or uh if you coarse chop them before you um before you go hardcore and then dip those things briefly in boiling water or or simmering water and do a soak and then chop them up, you'll blunt some of the uh some of it because you'll leave leave some of it out. If you I mean, interestingly, on garlic, if you uh cook garlic, not a pressure cooker, pressure cooker wipes out the uh ability to create these flavors later.
+
+[48:45] Um I've run this test, or can if you cook it for a long period of time. But if you just boil garlic uh enough to um enough to prevent the enzymes from working to destroy the enzymes and then crush that garlic, it won't get that crushed garlic flavor. If, on the other hand, you then mix in a small amount of fresh garlic to that garlic puree, the enzymes in the fresh garlic are enough to convert the chemicals in the uh cooked garlic puree and the whole thing will go stank on you. Uh but it doesn't happen if you pressure cook it. Anyway, this is semi-interesting for me.
+
+[49:17] All right, so uh I mean it's interesting for me, but probably not for so many other folks. Anyway, uh last but not least, uh Mark wants to know in a restaurant I was served a uh a roulette of guinea fowl the other day, and it tasted reheated. Uh I recall uh if I recall correctly, you once talked about a special type of oxidation. Uh how does one present this taste? Vacuum and reheat, or I'll say it vacuum and reheating water bath.
+
+[49:41] Right? That's uh that's uh how that's my question question. Uh does it matter if you store the bird uh cooked but unvacked in the fridge first? I know the restaurant has one of those steamer combi ovens. I tend to find that those can give a rather stale, uh dirty oven taste of food.
+
+[49:54] Which brings me to the question can one clean those ovens well enough to prevent the taste from getting in on the food? Uh thanks be well, Grazzi Mark. Uh so uh because he's Italian, so he says Grazzi. Uh I was like, Dave, don't ever speak Italian. Uh you say Grazzi.
+
+[50:09] No. Come on. No, I'm bad at speaking. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, it's so weak.
+
+[50:13] Everyone's weird. I've lost it. I lost my Italian. The same way you lost your Spanish? Yeah, it's going that way.
+
+[50:18] The only the only half Mexican Los Angeles girl I've ever met who can't speak a lick of Spanish. No, I can. I just you're getting it back? As you lose your Italian to get your Spanish back? Mm-hmm.
+
+[50:30] Crazy. Well, you should talk to my kids. I tell you my kids speak Spanish. No, they're really good. No, man, they're they have they're they're really good.
+
+[50:36] They you know they won't speak Spanish to me. They will not they will never speak Spanish to me. I'm like, why don't you help me learn Spanish? You should listen to this radio station in New York, they speak kind of Spanish, kind of English, often on the whole station. It'll help you learn.
+
+[50:49] I thought about it in the cab the other day. Really? But do they I only really know kitchen words? Do they teach, do they speak in kitchen? Did they speak they speak the news in English Spanish in a really colloquial way.
+
+[50:59] Would I be able to get some of it? Yeah, yeah. I think you should. I'll have to buy radio then. Uh I only listen to internet radio and I only listen to the heritage radio.
+
+[51:09] You're not kidding. Uh I'm not kidding. Uh uh I'm not. Um wait, so what were we talking about before that? Oh, so the warmed over flavor.
+
+[51:17] So uh on the combi ovens, cleaning the combi ovens, if you reheat in a combi oven something that has been cooked already that has fat in it, like birds, you are very likely to get that warmed over taste, which is um an oxidation phenomenon. I believe I I haven't had time to uh to look into it again, but I believe that storing it in an oxygen free environment uh is a good idea even before you reheat it, but definitely when you're reheating it, you want to keep oxygen uh away from it. I would assume that put uh uh you know keeping oxygen away from it even when you're storing it is also gonna be an excellent idea. But I can't remember off the top of my head whether the warmed over flavor uh is directly from oxygen during the reheat or whether it's a conversion uh oxidation that takes place uh based on kind of precursors or ox oxygen that was already in it. In other words, if you were to store something open in a fridge and then vac it down and reheat it, would that prevent the warmed over flavor as effectively as vacing it immediately and then storing it in the fridge and then my I tend to think not because there's gonna be a lot of oxidation rancid development in the fridge anyway.
+
+[52:24] So anyway, so I I would tend to think that's what's uh that's what's going on. I haven't had guinea fowl in a long time. Do you like guinea fellowl? I haven't had it. They eat a lot in Italy, didn't you?
+
+[52:33] No. You can buy them at the at the local uh Pollo Vivo shops up uh, you know, up at in the Is it called pigeon in Italy? No, no, they're bigger. No. Derek, do you were you with us when we went to the uh live uh the live poultry place years ago?
+
+[52:47] No. And uh it's it's like the ones that are still being run, they're fundamentally run for halal reasons. But like the uh they always happen to be in predominantly Spanish neighborhoods in New York. And so we brought someone in there to sp that you like, we brought Fabulous with us, and he kept on trying to speak to the guy in Spanish. The guy's like, I don't speak Spanish.
+
+[53:03] Remember that? What did he speak? But Fabulous kept on trying to speak to him in Spanish. He speaks English. Oh.
+
+[53:09] Like uh anyway, whatever. Uh hello. I had a question for the radio show. Uh this is from uh Peter Dale. Uh online you can purchase Japanese uh tabletop grill, and it's my understanding that they're generally used indoors with a special type of expensive charcoal that burns clean.
+
+[53:25] That charcoal, by the way, is uh bingoton, and it is extremely expensive. Um understandably they all come with disclosure saying they're not to be used inside, and I'm trying to figure out how much of that is uh justifiable fear of being sued versus actual health and safety risk. Is there an overwhelming risk of carbon monoxide being generated by using it, say on a windowsill or in front of a windowsill with a box uh fan uh Peter Dale. Okay, so here's the dealy. Uh burning coal, burning anything inside, really, generates uh carbon monoxide.
+
+[53:57] I don't know specifically whether or not uh the binchotan is supposed to burn cleaner. Uh however, clean is a relative thing. You know, carbon monoxide is odorless, carbon monoxide is colorless, and carbon monoxide isn't smoky looking or smelling at all. That's why it's so deadly. Um my general feeling is I am not well most people I know are incredibly worried about carbon monoxide, but I mean, I I live in, you know, if for instance, like here's how you're gonna die from carbon monoxide.
+
+[54:30] If you fall asleep in your garage with the door shut in your car on, right? Because you're generating carbon monoxide, and there's no way for the air to get in. If you in fact, there has been there's a the famous case of someone using charcoal grills to um kill themselves was the lead singer of Boston. Yeah. Stash, you're right on that one.
+
+[54:51] Boston. Uh he used a bunch of, but I don't know whether it was that go there, Dave. Boston. Uh yeah. So I was like, you always gotta go to Boston.
+
+[54:59] But the uh the uh but I don't remember whether or not there was other things or whether it was the actual monoxide that did it, but he did something like No, he had two different like get a backup plan, too. Yeah, but he had like three different charcoal burners, I think, going in his bedroom and he locked. We had a well anyway, it was in a closed thing. And he he plugged up the the the what's what am I what's the whatever? Yeah, under the door, yeah.
+
+[55:22] He plugged that up and he closed all the windows. The reason he wanted to commit seven. This is not that kind of show. This is not that kind of show. I'm just saying Boston is one of David my favorite bands.
+
+[55:34] One of many. Oh, I like him. Yeah, but this kind of soured us on whatever, whatever. Uh this is not that kind of charcoal. I know, what's saying what?
+
+[55:42] I'm just saying. I brought it up because I'm trying to say that charcoal can be dangerous, but if you're in a sealed freaking room, like, you know, and you light three charcoal things, this is like a little charcoal uh thing of a jig. You know what I mean? And he's gonna put it near a windowsill, and I'm gonna say you're fine. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[56:00] That's that's what I'm gonna say. Go ahead and say you're fine with it. But uh, you know, whatever. It's yeah, whatever. Uh do you mostly like classic rock?
+
+[56:14] Yeah. Yeah? Well, it's not just classic rock, it's Boston, dude. Yeah. You know.
+
+[56:21] Sorry, generalizing here. And you know what? When you look at the old uh album covers from Boston, this is the thing I always thought, like Delp, who's the singer, right? Like, I always thought he was really short because of the album covers, but it's really just that everyone else in Boston is like super tall, or as they'd say wicked tall. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:39] Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't want to get sued here, really. That's true. That's true.
+
+[56:50] Man, especially with the subject that we were talking about. Yeah. I I hear that they're not necessarily they weren't like the friendliest of folk. You know, they're geniuses, whatever. I'll leave it at that.
+
+[56:58] Uh okay. So on the way out. Uh I recently discovered the show last year and I've become devoted listener from over here in tropical Glasgow, Scotland. Love Glasgow. You've never been to Scotland, guys.
+
+[57:09] The Glaswegians are an interesting group. They're Glaswegians. I didn't know that. They're they are. They're an interesting group of folk.
+
+[57:14] And by the way, uh it's just this Luke from from Glasgow. Uh I myself am also a fan of the buckfist wine. So next time you're coming to New York, bring some buckfist uh with you, and we'll go. We'll get that's the kind of glass that's Glasgow Crump juice, even though it's not made in Glasgow. It's like it's like the it's like the thunderbird of Glasgow.
+
+[57:35] And so like everyone says that like Glaswegians like pound uh like this buckfist, and then they go ape. I was at 69 Colbrook Row with my good friend uh Tony C. And uh I think it was David Broom, the Scotch uh expert who brought some buckfist and we rodo vapped it, and we made like a buckfist syrup, and then we had like an O de Buckfist V, which was whatever. Come on. Anyway, okay, okay, whatever.
+
+[57:59] So anyway, uh I cook a lot with miso, but I've read conflicting information online about the right temperature to cook it. Uh have I have read that you shouldn't let the miso get above 60 degrees Celsius, but this is rarely mentioned, so I'm wondering if there's any scientific basis for it. Um I don't I was not able to find any scientific basis for it. 60, I mean I've done a lot of work, not in Miso, uh, but you know, so like let's let's just backtrack here. Some people online with the with with the miso cooking, they're worried about destroying the probiotics, right?
+
+[58:31] And so they don't want you to heat it too high because you're destroying the probiotics. Me, I don't so much care about that. And I like on more on many, many, many occasions have heated miso well above that temperature, both in soup applications, because who the hell serves a soup at 60 C S. You're gonna bring by the time you bring by the time you bring it to the table, it's weak. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[58:52] Jack, do you want a soup that's below 60 degrees Celsius? Definitely not. Hell no. No. Hell no.
+
+[58:58] Uh so anyway, that's that's my feeling like stir miso in at the end. Now I like miso straight out of the box. In fact, this like this morning, I had some cheddar cheese. I I don't know, I I'm a dumbass. It's because it's so salty.
+
+[59:09] But I whip uh I put uh Akamiso just directly on cheddar cheese and eat it. Isn't that weird? Mm-hmm. It's weird, right? Anyway, I use miso a lot, but I have no qualms about boiling it.
+
+[59:19] Uh it changes the flavor, but I don't think it destroys it or it doesn't turn it into poison. So if you like the flavor of it when it goes above that temperature, and I haven't read anything or found anything that there's a direct like once you reach over 60 degrees, a certain uh certain uh flavor compound is destroyed, or another thing has been generated that is an off-flavor, but I'm gonna keep my eye out for it. But I will say this on 60 degrees, the one thing where 60 degrees is a relevant number is uh on kambu. So if you're looking at uh making kambu, which is the seaweed, not the miso part of it, but kambu dashi. Uh when you do the kambu, the temperature of steeping is important uh for the flavor, and we go back on the cooking issues.
+
+[59:58] I think you can still get it on the line. Uh we did a bunch of temperature tests, 60, 70, uh, and then up near the boil. And I forget whether we like 60 or 70 best, but it's in that range of 60 or 70, and that we verify by side-by-side taste test. Now we could do, I don't really not really set up for it right now, but someday if I can, I'll I'll I can try to do the side by side of taking miso, vac bagging it, and then putting it under three different temperature regimes in a vac bag and seeing whether or not they're altered or how they taste. That'd actually be an interesting test, or maybe someone out there in cooking issues uh listening land can um run that test for me and uh figure out what they say.
+
+[1:00:32] Well, most miso we get is crap anyway, but I'm assuming that you're getting high quality miso. Uh because your second question is do you have any tips for making udon noodles? I've just started making my own and they're coming out beige rather than uh translucent white. I've been making them with a white bread flour for the high gluten content and some tapioca starch for dusting. Any tips for making killer noodles would be much appreciated.
+
+[1:00:52] Thanks to the whole crew for a great show on Heritage and the amazing blog podcasts. Uh one quick note, final note. I was watching Diana Kennedy's presentation at the Mad conference, which is that uh Denmark thing, uh last year, and she talked about the problem of waste plastic from vacuum ceiling for sous vide cooking. Is it impossible or just inconvenient to create reusable vacuum bags? Uh well, let's go backwards, right?
+
+[1:01:14] Well, I'll go to the Udon first. So my preliminary not being a I've done a lot more work with Soba than I have with uh Udon. And so I don't have a lot of uh firsthand knowledge on udon, but uh I did uh some preliminary research on the technical literature of U for Udon and uh higher protein flowers in Udon correlate with um uh darker color. So I'm trying to figure out whether there uh is some work around, and of course Udon's not supposed to be as hard and snappy as some of the other things, but I'm gonna try to see, and I started reading a document called uh uh Japanese Noodle Makers Preferences for uh flower types, but I didn't get a chance to finish it before it goes on. So hopefully I can uh get some more information and go back on that.
+
+[1:01:56] But on the on the vac bags, it is not really feasible to do a washout on the on the vac bags. I mean, it is, I mean, I have done it, but it sucks, and you just always get cross-contamination and it gets wrinkly, you know what I'm saying? And then it's hard to seal right, and also every time you seal the bag, you lose like that sealing area, and then the next time you put it on, you have to put a couple uh inches over the seal bar and you keep going, keep going, keep going. And so the bags get used up over time. What I think is feasible and will happen someday is they will develop a biodegradable bag that can be in fact they have biodegradable bags, they're sealable now.
+
+[1:02:35] It's just they're not really used for cooking. I think it's like the whole system was built around this non-biodegradable thing. And I know I like I feel I feel her pain uh uh, but I don't really think about it with sous vide bags. I think the primary problem first is shopping bags, but like I I I hate plastic shopping bags now. I said ever since I went and took that trip to uh Senegal and I saw like all these beautiful landscapes totally marred by plastic uh trash bags.
+
+[1:03:00] I've been trying to kick the plastic trash bag habit um entirely. Uh with Sous vide, um I think there's the real possibility for biodegradable bags. It's just the technology needs to be upped a little better. Um there's some issues with some of the uh bags out there now. Like, for instance, like a lot of times if you ask for a completely biodegradable packaging on bags, um, they have problems with the resins that they can form them fine, but then they don't necessarily um adapt well to further forming later on down the road because of moisture absorption and other problems like that.
+
+[1:03:30] They might not also be good for industry because they're not going to be as shelf stable over a long period of time in a food application. But that wouldn't be a big deal for a cook. So I just don't know whether there's a big enough market for someone to have developed it yet, but maybe there is. The other thing you could do is you could do a completely uh like dishwasher, and people have these silicones. You've seen these people have now silicone bags that um you can reseal and you can use them as storage and wash them out a bunch of times.
+
+[1:03:56] The issue there is that the vacuum machines that are currently on the market, the chamber vaccines in particular, aren't designed to work with those. But they definitely could be. In a current chamber vacuum machine, what happens is uh you suck the air out of the chamber, then when the vacuum cycle is over, a rubber bar pushes up into a heat ceiling bar, and the heat sealing bar turns on the electricity and seals the bag. Then the air is let back in. But just as easily, you could have it instead of pushing up into a heat seal bar, you could have it push up into a ziploc.
+
+[1:04:28] Uh Johnson's family company. You could have it uh push up into a Ziploc closure and have that pressure bar uh close as close it like a zippy without using a heat seal, and then you could presumably use a like a silicone bag like that over and over again, but you'd have to have the equipment designed around it, and that just hasn't happened yet. So I think the future for the ability to do low temperature cooking in a sealed and bag like environment in a way that's more sustainable, is could be bright. I don't know whether anyone's working on the problem yet, but my two cents. Oh, uh, I already talked about Udon.
+
+[1:04:59] And uh that's a wrap. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:05:27] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a non profit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products first hand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home dot com.
+
+[0:29] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:00] It's a Dave Vernon, your host of Kiki. Cooking what? Cooking issues? I got issues with my voice today. Maybe it's because my voice buds are frozen.
+
+[1:07] Do we have voice buds? Voice box. Frozen. It is snowing, I could beam in out, but I'm still coming to you live. A little late because the subway was shafting me.
+
+[1:15] I usually I'm late and it's my own fault, right, Stuas? Yep. Because I'm disorganized and a bad person all around. Today I'm actually gonna blame the weather. Although I noticed that uh Jack man here on time, as did Nastasha, so maybe and they're both coming from Manhattan.
+
+[1:29] That's right. Now I come from Manhattan. In fact, farther away. Were you guys on the L train today? Yes.
+
+[1:34] Uh no. Well, yes, Ftel. F Tell F Tel. A, yeah. Uh just uh whatever.
+
+[1:41] People don't care. Calling your questions live to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Um, so we haven't actually have an event tonight, right, Stas? Do you think I think that thing's gonna go on?
+
+[1:52] Yeah. Really? Yeah. I talked to her. And she's like, we're gonna do it?
+
+[1:55] Oh, yeah. She's excited about a hot drink. Everything. We don't have a hot drink. I told her we were gonna work on one.
+
+[1:59] So let's do that. Yeah, we're like so we're doing this event tonight at a place called Feel, NYC. Uh and you know, one of the partners uh food. Feel food. Yeah.
+
+[2:11] But what's funny is is that our friend who's you know, one of the partners there, Galen Quinn, who runs uh the Bogota Food and Wine Festival, or wine and food festival, I can never keep it straight. She uh she's from Columbia and she calls it Phil Food, like Phil, like our friend Phil Bravo. Right. And she can't, like literally cannot hear the difference between the words fill and feel. So we were bust we were busting her chops yesterday on the Phil Feel phenomenon, fill phenomenon, film phil nominal.
+
+[2:36] Anyway, uh, but so I can't believe we're gonna do an event with cocktails with people like arriving as it's like going bu dumping buckets of snow on us. But hey, that's life. That's how it's cut. We agree to do it, so we do what? We do it.
+
+[2:50] We do it. All right. So we got uh some questions in on knives. Um Deer Cooking Issues team, I have a simple I have a simple knife question. Although it's not so simple, as it turns out most things are not so simple, right?
+
+[3:03] Uh on a whim, I recently bought a 10-inch uh knife blank. The listing claimed it was a 100-year-old sabatier blank. You know, sabbatier is like the French uh like the French knives. Yes. You familiar with those?
+
+[3:15] Uh sabotier blank, you know, French the French knife pattern, the like the old sabatier pattern, is um different from the kind of standard German chef's knives that we all kind of grow up with. Like, you know, in the US, you know, if you you know, if you're my age, um, you know, when you were younger, no one really had the Japanese or the Japanese Western stuff. They weren't very popular, I don't think, until probably the 90s, you know, like uh, you know, some somewhere in the late 90s, somewhere around there, with the US people. So, you know, in the in the early 90s and the late 80s and early 90s, everyone wanted their their hankles and their Vustoffs, right? And if you were gonna get, you know, uh a Japanese chest knife to do Western style work, most likely you'd get um like a Mac.
+
+[4:02] You know what I mean? Well the Macs that you would get, like were semi in you know, in kind of the newer style Japanese Western pattern, but more you know, akin to um Japanese takes on Western knives. These are the ones I was kind of grew up being exposed to. But you know, most of us uh or most people I knew didn't really have a set of uh French pattern knives. And the French pattern, the the knife actual the the handle style and the and the shape of the knife a little bit different from the German style.
+
+[4:31] I actually quite like it. So I so I in fact my favorite knife that I have that's a Western knife is uh because I have my favorite Japanese knives, but my favorite uh Western knife is in fact a 10-inch sabetier uh knife, old, really freaking old, carbon steel, that I found at a uh a flea market for two bucks. And it was you know, it was rusty but not like too rusty on the blade section, so it didn't have didn't have any real wasting or loss of metal in the actual edge. There was some pitting in the in the belly of the blade itself, but nothing on the edge, and so I was able to take it and that thing, that thing's a demon, except for people keep picking it up, using it without my permission and then leaving it wet, which really makes me want to if people do not first of all, don't use other people's knives, right? Like don't like unless you ask, don't use somebody else's knife.
+
+[5:23] Yeah. Straight up. Like, remember w at the FCI, I had a set of Japanese knives, also carbon steel, so they rusted. And uh some and I had a new Suba, which is uh you know the vegetable carving knife. It's got a very like flat uh blade.
+
+[5:37] It's it's meant for like turning daikons and stuff into those sheets. And you know I bought it at a time when the yen was not quite as good as it is against the dollar now, so it wasn't ridiculously expensive. But still I think it set me back like a hundred and something bucks and and now it's like a hundred and fifty or a hundred and eighty five dollar knife or something like that. And uh some some jackwad picked it up, thought it was I guess I don't know what the hell they thought it was a cleaver and they hit it into bones and took giant scallop marks out of it and made it entirely useless and then left it wet. So I came back to my knife kit.
+
+[6:13] They were kind enough to put it away but they put it away and left it ruined, completely ruined. I've never been so angry about something that's happened in a kitchen to my equipment ever. I was like why would anyone ever pick up somebody else's knife? But so this is the problem about having nice stuff in a communal environment. And you know my home now because you know people come through it amounts in some ways to a communal environment.
+
+[6:33] So anyway it's hard to keep sometimes carbon knife uh in good shape which is w you know why you should I don't know be protective about it. Does it make any sense? It's not really the question but you ever had a carbon knife? No. The advantages of the carbon steel knives are they're uh ridiculously easy to sharpen.
+
+[6:49] They take you know they they don't uh the they're a pain in terms of you know uh taking care of them. Like whenever I use mine I wipe it down after use and I put a thin coat of oil on it, you know, at the end of the night. Uh I wipe it after each use, and then at the end of the night I put a thin coat of oil on and put away, and it's been fine for years, but uh it's just a little more use, but it takes an edge uh extremely uh well. I don't I don't think the edge lasts longer than I mean the new the new steels, the edge the new steels that they have are crazy, you know. Uh and so you know, I'm sure from an actual performance standpoint, but the fact that it takes an edge so easy so easily means that you you know you can a couple swipes on my on my uh on my stone, and the sucker is you know like a like a like a slicing machine.
+
+[7:31] That's my favorite thing to slice steaks with. Stakes. Anyway, uh okay. So uh I bought a 10-inch knife blank and the listing claimed it was a 100-year-old sabotier blank recently discovered in a warehouse, warehouse in how do you think you pronounce uh like I I should know because it's French, right? But uh Thiers, you mean it's Thiers?
+
+[7:50] Pronounced written in English Thiers. But I think it's probably T A. How is it how's it spelled? Thiers. Like F-E-A-R-S?
+
+[7:57] No, like T-H-I-E. Yeah. But I would guess it's like Thiers or something like that. Tier. I don't know.
+
+[8:03] But you never know with them, right? Yeah. Could they could be like douche, you're supposed to pronounce the R S on that one. You're like, uh course they don't understand douche. That's some my favorite thing about French people is that they don't understand the douche insult.
+
+[8:14] They're like shallow, shall we sack of us? You know, uh I'm not going into German. Anyway, I have problems. I've got the pronunciation here. What is it?
+
+[8:21] Thiers. Thiers. Thiers. There you go. That was pretty close.
+
+[8:24] Yeah. Uh and made from virgin steel, not used today. With this story, I couldn't pass it up, but I've been having trouble finding someone willing to transform the blank into a functioning knife. I was rebuffed. I like that.
+
+[8:36] Rebuff's a good word. I was rebuffed by one custom Brooklyn knife maker, and he could not point me to any other knife makers who would be willing to do the job. And he suggested that this require heat rather than just sharpening as well. Uh I really have a good eight-inch Chef's knife at home that I keep sharp with a DMT system. Those are the diamond uh anyway.
+
+[8:54] Uh I like them, DMT. But uh system. So this is uh not an especially urgent task. However, just holding the blank makes my current knife feel like safety scissors against X caliber. So who and where do I go to turn this blank into a real knife?
+
+[9:08] Preferably here in New York, but maybe this task is not as simple as I had originally thought. Uh and then uh this pat from Patrick. And um he did he put in the description from uh from the eBay. And by the way, for those of you interested in this problem, the uh the person who he bought it from, if you uh you if you look sabatier blank, there are some eBay auctions currently from the same guy, still up. You can still go buy one of these if this is something that uh interests you.
+
+[9:35] Um yeah, it's not as simple as you thought. If you if you go look if you guys look it up and you go on eBay and see what you what what we have here is you have a uh a blank just after the forging step, right? So it's uh it's a whole you know blank with the the metal entire, but it it it uh it looks like it's only gone through the first step. So what happens after you forge it is you have to do something called annealing. And uh the annealing is to make it soft to work and get rid of some of the stresses.
+
+[10:01] So you're gonna anneal it and annealing it, you're gonna take it up to a fairly high temperature, like uh somewhere like 1450 or so Fahrenheit, and you're gonna hold it there for a while and you're gonna cool it very, very, very slowly. And what that's gonna do is it's going to bring the metal into a very soft state that's easily worked. And I think it also gets rid of some of the stress. And that is so that you can do the kind of the uh grinding and to get it down to almost finished, except for the actual edge itself, you want to get it down. Because if you look at the picture that you have of the blank, it has like a lot of forging marks in it that you can still see in the in the in the picture.
+
+[10:39] After you do that, right, now you have to harden the guy. So you have to, you're gonna you're gonna anneal it, then you're gonna do uh kind of whatever uh work you're gonna do on it, then you might do something called uh normalization, which is another thing similar to annealing, but not quite as uh not quite as slow a cooling. The reason you cool it slowly is when you heat the steel up to a high temperature, uh you change the state of the metal. It goes from being you know a mix of whatever it happens to be in whatever state it is, partially probably hardened from working, partially not, in uh into kind of an ostentitic state, which is the non-magnetic state. And then if you cool it very slowly, it forms into uh you know a very soft structure, whereas if you cool it very quickly, you know, a portion of it, hopefully a large portion of it, turns to martensite, which is a lot harder, which is what you know, harden steel.
+
+[11:30] So uh so anywho, so you want to cool it uh not as slowly as annealing, but uh relatively slowly uh to kind of uh you know produce a finer grain structure and get rid of any um kind of imperfections in it that might cause problems with the with the um with the hardening which you're about to do. Now I don't know whether that step's fully necessary or not, but a lot of people seem to recommend it. Then you're going to uh heat it up again to that same high temperature and then quench it like a mother in oil very quickly so that uh the metal does not have the time to uh to go into its softer state, instead frozen in the harder martensitic state, right? Does that make sense? Then it's really shattering, like it's gonna be shatter brittle like glass, so then you need to take it and heat it up again to a tempering stage, which is a lower temperature.
+
+[12:14] That you know is much easier to accomplish because the other temperatures are like 1450, that kind of thing. You need a real like a kind of a forge or a kiln to do that, right? The other one is a little bit lower, is a tempering thing. That can be done kind of more reasonable uh uh steps. So you do that to kind of make it not as brittle.
+
+[12:30] And so you temper it maybe once, maybe twice, depending on who you listen to, uh, and there you have your blade. After you temper it, then you have to put uh uh scales on it, right? You know, um wooden parts, right? You don't have to use wood, you could use whatever you want. Like a lot of people use uh uh like phenolic compounds, bone or whatever you want, and rivet it down, sand down the uh sand down the uh handle so it's nice, and then put your final uh polish and your uh edge on it.
+
+[12:57] So, in other words, to to put it in, you know, to put it this way, it's a lot of freaking work. And to have someone do a one-off custom job on something like this is gonna cost a lot of money, like much more than just going and buying a high quality old sabbatier uh chest knife. At least I would charge a lot, you know, if I was gonna do something like that. And that's probably one of the reasons why the custom knife maker that you uh that you dealt with was like, why would I do that? I'm a custom knife maker, I want to make my own knives, I don't want to do that to this other knife.
+
+[13:29] Now they're probably being a little bit of a jerk about it because everyone's look everyone who does something like that for a living, like including myself, like when someone's like wants someone comes to me and wants me to make somebody else's cocktail, I'm like, why would I do that? That's ridiculous. You know what I mean? But so everyone who does this stuff for a living, like they're kind of jerks, but and they're kind of not understanding towards someone who's not directly on the inside of their business, but that's just the nature of someone who cares about what they do. I mean, the problem is it's gonna be hard to find someone who cares about what they do who is willing to do it for a reasonable price and who doesn't care about the whole process in general.
+
+[13:57] Does that make sense to us? So, anyway, so I think you've bitten off quite a bit, but I think it's a really interesting project. If you go on Kitchen knife forums, uh, there's a guy there named Devin Thomas, who's a very famous maker. I've never touched one of his knives, but they're, you know, a chef's knife from Devin Thomas is upwards of like $1,500 bucks. If you can get it because they're made one off, they're custom.
+
+[14:17] And he's a maker of crazy, crazy pattern Damascus style steels that he makes himself, both stainless and carbon Damascus steels. And uh he wrote in that he bought one like 20 years ago from the same guy and made a night uh knife with it. And this is what he says to do, should you find someone who's willing to do it. Um he says uh anneal at 1450 for uh one hour, drop the temperature to 1275 for four hours, and then cool in the furnace. Uh to harden it, soak uh at roughly uh 1500 degrees Fahrenheit for uh 10 minutes and then quench in oil and then temper immediately for one hour uh between 350 and 400 degrees uh Fahrenheit, uh one or two times.
+
+[15:01] Uh one time for more toughness, sorry, one one uh two times for more toughness and one hour for more wear resistance, i.e., longer keeping edge. Uh but that is not something that the average person, I think, could do. Uh although I have to say, I love the oldest sabotier knives. I love them. Anyway, does that make sense?
+
+[15:20] Devin Thomas. You should go take a look at his knives, by the way. I mean, I I looked, he you can't even, you can't buy them, it's crazy. Like I just don't I think maybe Matt from uh from uh Chef Matt from uh uh Sambar might have one because he's kind of a knife nut. Anyway, all right.
+
+[15:34] Uh should we take a uh quick break? Sure. All right, let's take a quick break, come back with more cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com.
+
+[16:33] And we're back. Yeah. I didn't know we were the largest um distributor of heritage uh pigs and turkeys. Heritage breed, yeah. But are we we are not the distributor of the largest breeds of pigs and turkeys as far as I know.
+
+[16:54] No. The opposite. Yeah, the turkey the turkeys are delicious. Anyone who's had one knows this, but they're not like the the jacked up like you know, super like gym going birds that they're athletic birds. They fly.
+
+[17:10] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, uh, I forget how much they weigh. That what styles? How much did they weigh at Thanksgiving time?
+
+[17:15] You remember? No, I don't remember. They were like they were like on the more like on the 15-pound side, right? Yeah, that's more common. Yeah, not on like the 25 pound like mo mon like monster turkey.
+
+[17:28] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we should figure out like how to get the like I'm sure they could grow some sort of like a giant mega heritage breed turkey if they wanted to. Wow.
+
+[17:37] Only only you could find out. Yeah, we can do it. We know of course the heritage breed pigs will grow bigger, you know, if you let them live longer. You know the advantage of letting the pigs live longer? Well, it depends on what you want, right?
+
+[17:47] I mean, like, we slaughter our animals so young, uh, typically here in the US, which is one of the reasons. If you go back and you read uh dry cured meat products by Fidel Toldra, which by the way, I don't recommend. It's not a very scintillating read. I mean, it's good from an informational standpoint. I'm sure it's horribly out of date.
+
+[18:02] And Fidel Toldra's written other books since this one, which was written, I think, in the in the late 90s. I own it, it's like technical book. Boring. I mean, it's not boring. It's it's boring.
+
+[18:12] I mean, like Stas, you would find it intensely boring. But it has information in it that I'm glad I have in my head now. One of those pieces of information is that the uh muscular enzyme uh makeup of an animal is dependent on its age. And that for dry cured, long age dry cured meat products, the uh enzyme balance or the enzyme makeup, rather, in uh older hogs is more conducive to uh creating a higher quality long age product. In addition, the meat from uh older hogs or older animals in general tastes incredibly different.
+
+[18:47] Now, uh Jeffrey Steingart, who by the way, like wants to get in touch with us, but then I he w didn't call us back. I haven't talked to Jeffrey in a long time. But Jeffrey, so here's two different styles, right, of thought. So you got your Harold McGee and your Jeffrey Steingarden, both of whom went to Spain to uh taste very old meats. Like, so there's a bunch of restaurants in Spain that specialize in uh, you know, you know, cooking older animals, like seven year old cows, things like this, uh, you know, older things that we don't get here in the US, I think, and I think even older, you know, mutton, very aged mutton, things like this.
+
+[19:18] So, McGee, this is like Stas knows, McGee is like just explaining like kind of how awesome it is, and like maybe I can, you know, how can I get it? Blah, blah, blah. And Steingard's just rubbing in my face that he got to have this awesome stuff that I can't have. You know what I'm saying? Steingard loves that loves.
+
+[19:29] It's like Steingarden, you know, was invited to uh one of the Ordelon dinners that they had uh maybe maybe they did, maybe they didn't have it at uh I think at La Circa and also maybe once at Danielle back in like the 90s and rubs in my face all the time that he's had the order on I'm like how was he? He's like delicious because he doesn't care that I can't have it. You know what I mean? Or I shouldn't say he doesn't care. He revels in the fact that I want it and I can't have it I think.
+
+[19:57] Which is not to say he's mean he just likes a good he likes a good nose rub. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway, I owe him a call.
+
+[20:03] Anywho okay uh what was what was I talking about? Oh Fidel Toldra. So the age of the animal also not only from the enzyme standpoint but the actual flavor of the muscle is going to be different. I don't have any personal experience uh on that uh but all the data shows uh that or at least the data from the late 90s shows that um older pigs equal better pigs from a ham standpoint I'm talking about curing hams long long term age products I don't know whatever that's neither here nor there okay uh hi Dave this is from Sam hi Dave can you talk a little bit about your philosophy of dishes and flatware I don't think you've ever talked in depth about the subject on the air uh Sam well that's interesting you know uh most chefs who um cook food for a living they care extremely uh deeply about their both the the plates I think mostly about the plates right uh oh not not just plates, plates, all service wear. And then probably uh after that about the um about the the flatware.
+
+[21:07] And I think that there's kind of you know at home it's a lot it's a lot different. If you're gonna go uh professional, right, especially in like a super high end restaurant, a low end restaurant, you just need something that's gonna show off the show off the food well, right? So you go with something simple. But a lot of high end restaurants, like you know, what like Mark has how many different kinds of uh things at Del Posto? Yeah, but but you know the thing is like the cost investment, because you it at a high-end restaurant, the the the service the the plates that you have need to be of a quality that you're like you're not like man, this is thick and crappy.
+
+[21:42] I could have this in my own house and it's not a big you know what I mean? Like it needs to have a certain level of kind of quality and and panache, but it needs to be tough enough to not get totally banged up, or else the costs are gonna go through the roof because each one of these plates cost you remember he was saying how much some of those plates cost. Like those ones we shattered at our event. We shattered at the MoFat event a couple years ago, we shattered probably how many? Like 15.
+
+[22:06] 15 or 20, and they're probably like 75 plates or something like that. Yeah, anyway. Um, so you know, if you're gonna have something for a long time, you have it, but then you you know, bringing a new plate in, you have to think about how many different dishes am I gonna get out of this plate, right? So, like I've been to restaurants and I won't name any names, but they're like, I really like this weird plate, right? And then because they invested in this weird plate, I get this plate three or four times during the meal on a large course-down meal on a tasting plate, uh, you know, a tasting menu, and you're like, enough with the crazy plate.
+
+[22:36] You know what I mean? Enough, you know what I'm saying, Saz? Have you ever had that happen? Where like someone like they buy that, like, I don't know, it's shaped like a wave or like some sort of a crazy oval, and then they bust it out like three and four times because they kind of need to. Yeah, no, I haven't had that.
+
+[22:49] Yeah. I mean, the flip side of this is if you have a tasting, uh, you look, so you can either go on a tasting, some people do the almost entirely one plate, right? And then the plate's blank canvas, and then you have to choose a plate that you like that fits your style, typically white, thin, beautiful, right? And then you're gonna need another one that is um slightly dished, like maybe you get a charger that's slightly dished that way. If you serve something that's not a full-on soup but is brothy, and you don't want with a wide lip that something can go into it, right?
+
+[23:18] Then you need some form of soup. Usually, you know, I I would go for a wide soup because you go wide soup, you can do a lot more than you can do thin. It's more elegant to have like a wide soup than a thin soup, right? Wouldn't you say, Stas? And then if you want to salt and pepper it, that's when you pull out the like the cheap dish.
+
+[23:35] That's where you go to Chinatown, you go and you buy like you know, the less expensive stuff in the pretty colors, like the ceramics that don't cost an arm and a leg, and you can kind of buy on a lark and switch out for uh a plating thing here or there, or switch up if you have something weird into sake cups and other things that are uh you know that are less uh you know, less expensive. So I mean, if you had to, and even at home, I would say, and this is what I've done is you invest in you invest in a good, uh very kind of neutral but you know, beautiful, like basic set that allows you to do chargers that allows you to do normal plated stuff, smaller stuff like bread and butters, you know, B and B plates, and uh, you know, maybe like uh, you know, a more wide flat soup and then uh a regular soup bowl, and then just buy a bunch of weird, weird stuff that you do for one-offs, like for events and parties and stuff. What do you think? You agree with that? On the on the I mean, like, you know, the the exact opposite extreme of this is Grand AK It's at a Linia.
+
+[24:32] If you've ever eaten at a linea, you ever eat there? No. I've eaten there a couple times, and it's like all customized hyper stuff, uh, you know, hyper customized different things, but you know, I think that's very difficult for the average person to A pay for and B to support in their in their kind of restaurant. I mean, like he has dishes, he has dishes that are built for dishes, if that makes sense. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:51] Does that make sense what I'm saying? Dishes built for dishes for specific dishes. Pieces of ceramic things to eat dishes off. Anyway, you know what I'm saying. Um flatware, you know, I love uh I love flatware.
+
+[25:06] Uh but I don't I you know I don't think about having like lots of tons of different kinds of flatware. I'm not a giant fan. I am when I go to the old school like French places. Do you like going to old school French restaurants? I love it.
+
+[25:17] You know, if there was a time when I, you know, I don't know, I went to a bunch of them in a row, and I was like, but then and I, you know, I kind of lost the kind of love for it. But then, you know, I remember once uh years and years ago, I hadn't been to an old school French restaurant in a long time, and I went to Danielle, uh, and I had the like the whole full-on old school Danielle French, like nothing new, like nothing that had been kind of invented as a technique, you know, after Escophier. Like they just busted out all except for it was Dominique Encel was the pastry chef at the time, so there was some newer stuff there, but I mean like really old school French stuff. And I was like, this is awesome. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:52] This is like super awesome. And then they bring out the fish fork. You like the fish fork with the little notch in it? So for that kind of stuff, I like that. And normally I'm like, you know, I just want some normal, like good quality flatware.
+
+[26:06] I don't like a lot of weird handles. I hate the weird handle. I hate anything that feels weird in my hand. I like I want the I want the fork and the knife to be like a sensual extension of my body, and I don't want any sort of weirdness there. What about you, Stuzz?
+
+[26:20] I like you, fancy flatware. No, but do you like weird handle? Oh, yeah. Really? I hate a weird handle.
+
+[26:27] I hate a thin handle. If you're doing a thing. Well, if you're doing a thing. I mean, what like what kind of a thing? Like French thing or yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:34] But still, like, you know, a high quality hand. Like, you don't want you ever been have one of those things where someone makes like a handle and it's like a like a wire almost, and it's like this weird created handle, and you're like when you're holding it, it doesn't feel substantial. No. So my wife designed flatware for a while, and uh this uh one of these like salt, you know how there's like every every business has these salty old guys? He was like, they we got the prototypes back, and Jen was looking at him, the guy was like, Hey, yeah, uh, those are nice, but they're never gonna sell.
+
+[27:01] And Jim was like, Why not? He's like, they're just not heavy enough. It doesn't even he's like literally, he's like, it doesn't matter what it looks like. Put the sucker on a scale, and if the knife and fork don't weigh X amount, they will not sell. Like, so you know, she just beefed it up a little bit so that the weight was right.
+
+[27:16] But if you hold something thin or light in your hands, you're like, this is not a satisfying uh implement. So, you know, I think, and ever since then, I was like, you know, damn, this crusty old dude's right. And you know, I feel for heft in my hand. So I th I like a good heft in my flatware. Now, drinkware, it like, you know, also at the bar, if you've ever been to Booker and Dax, we don't really stock uh lots of like loony, loony toonie uh glassware, you know.
+
+[27:48] Um I'm a kind of a believer in getting a relatively small number of glasses and and you know just going that way. But you know, but it bar is a little bit different. So you could invest in a boatload of different weird things, but in general, all of the drinks are designed around certain volumes anyway. And so, unless you bring in a whole new category of drinks, like when we brought in the red hot poker drinks, well, we're like, okay, now we need a coffee cup. We don't stock like five different coffee cups for each different kind of um drink.
+
+[28:18] You know what I mean? Or each different um red-hot poker drink. Or, you know, most shaken drinks fit in either a coupe glass or the two-thirds coupe glass. And so that's all we have. You know, and uh it hasn't really served uh a purpose for us to have a zillion.
+
+[28:33] In fact, we don't even have highball glasses because we don't do that kind of drink. I kept I keep on telling the bartenders though, I'll buy the highball glasses if they can make a drink that's uh that forces me to buy them. You like high balls? Mm-hmm. Yeah, me too.
+
+[28:44] What do you think of like the cocktail and a mason jar thing? What do I think of the cocktail and a mason jar thing? Uh look, I'm gonna piss some people off. Mason jars are not particularly pleasant to drink out of because the lip of them is really, really thick. Uh and the only really reason to have a thick rimmed glass is like a coffee mug or something like that that you kind of want your lips to be around and you want the mass of the of the of the glass to provide some sort of either cooling and or warming property to it.
+
+[29:14] Uh in general, I favor glasses with thin rims. So, you know, coupes have thin rims, um, you know, old-fashioned glasses have thin rims. And in fact, the thinner the rim, the more I enjoy drinking out of it, as long as the glass itself has enough weight. So I like, you know, like on an old-fashioned, I think it's nice to have uh, you know, not a preposterously thick bottom, but a fairly thick bottom and a fairly thin uh lip. So mason jars have screw lids on the top, and so are always uh beefy.
+
+[29:46] Um they also I think tend to kind of obscure kind of the cocktail on the inside. Now, for a theme event, I think they're fine. Or like, you know, for like uh if you're gonna have a lot of ice in it in a in a drink, I think it's kind of okay as long as you pre-chill it but I never I never reach for them that makes sense what do you think Stuz I I agree what do you think Jack you disagree with me I can't stand them actually wow I mean like if it's a cold lemonade with a lot of ice and a straw maybe I guess but I agree with you it's not a pleasant thing to drink out of yeah you're putting this in a you're putting us in a tough spot don't they use those here at Roberta's uh I wasn't gonna make mention of that yeah see I thought you were just trying to get me in trouble over here I wasn't gonna mention that yeah but I mean you know think of like a pint glass versus a mason jar for a beer I'd rather have a p I'd rather a pint any every time yeah I actually I like pint glasses there that's like the thickest rim that I like drinking something out of is a pint glass and I like them because they're sturdy and when you put a pint glass down you're not like I'm afraid I'm gonna break this sucker you know what I'm saying? Yeah but you're also not like why am I why am I you know drinking out of uh out of an iPad you know what I mean like you know mason jar is like so thick it's like the thickness of a freaking iPad. I wasn't meant to be a dig in any one place.
+
+[31:02] I mean you know a lot of places do that. I know uh you know and then like the worst of all I'm really gonna get in trouble. Look here's the thing like any one of you out here out there if you'd use it I'm sure you can do something to pull it off right I mean like anything can be pulled off like stuff that normally I would hate how many times have you heard me say man I thought I was gonna hate that crap but it was good a lot. A lot right because I'm opinionated guy and I go but like have you seen these people who like put mason jars on stems oh man, yeah, I've seen that. Why the hell would you do that?
+
+[31:32] I don't know. Why would you do that? Here's another thing. Like, let's say you had a drink that you uh were somehow, I don't know, gonna gonna package and sell to somebody. Then maybe it'd be fun to have a jelly jar or like a or a mason jar because you could actually like it would look like a canned thing that you could buy, and you could buy it in a store.
+
+[31:50] That might be fun. You know what I mean? I don't know, whatever. You're getting me in trouble, Jack. Jesus.
+
+[31:55] No. Jesus. All right. Uh dear Dave et al. I was intrigued by your recipe for pressure cooked eggs, which I found on the Cooking Issues blog, but I've had some trouble actually making it.
+
+[32:05] When I squeeze the egg whites out in uh into the ramekin, some of the yolks float up to the top. Instead of uh neatly divided muffin as you seem uh to do to get, I get a spongy mass with pockets of egg white in it. Any ideas uh what I might be doing wrong? Also, should I be putting uh in some water at the bottom of the pressure cooker or not? Thanks and keep it the good work, uh good work, Alex.
+
+[32:26] Okay, Alex. When I press there's a couple different pressure cooking tricks I do uh with eggs. The the ones where they turn uh brown, where it's like a Hamin egg, the uh which you should all, by the way, anyone who's listening to this, they've they own on food of cooking, right? Pretty much? Anyone, right?
+
+[32:44] If not, if you don't, I'm not calling you out. You shouldn't like feel embarrassed. You should just go on uh uh to your local bookstore, or if you don't go to your local bookstore, go to Amazon and purchase Harold McGee's book on food and cooking, right? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[32:57] Uh and uh in that book, uh he describes uh something called a hammeen egg. And a Hamin egg uh is an egg, so like uh, you know, I've described this on the show a couple times, but I'll do it again. Uh let's say uh you're you're you can't let's say that you uh observe kosher laws, you're not allowed to uh cook uh on the Sabbath, so you have a large oven in the in a in a village environment, let's say, and the oven has retained heat, so you put all of your stuff in there the night before, uh including eggs into a stew, and it cooks for uh you know for a long, long period of time uh at a relatively you know decent temperature and as it cools off it goes out. Now those eggs, so-called Hamene eggs, they turn brown not simply from absorbing flavors, but because uh egg whites are alkaline, and the more alkaline you make something, the lower temperature uh you need for myard reactions to take place. So even at the you know, at boiling water temperatures, you can get myard reactions in an egg white if you cook it for a long time.
+
+[34:00] What's a long time? Twelve, uh, you know, eighteen, twenty-four, forty-eight hours. So I've cooked eggs at uh you know at simmer and boiling temperatures for that length of time, and indeed they do turn brown. Uh, and not only do they turn brown, they get uh interesting kind of brown flavors, biscuit y notes and stuff like that. So uh, you know, back when uh Nils and I were at the French culinary, you know, one of the things we said, well, why don't we accelerate this with a pressure cooker?
+
+[34:24] And and you cook the eggs and you put them in a pressure cooker, and they come out within an hour, they're like a nut brown, and the egg yolks smell like kind of chicken livers and the and the whites are brown. You gotta be care uh but but here's the trick, and I think here's the here's the thing. When I do that kind of an egg, I do not uh crack them before I cook them. I cook them in the shell. And not only do I cook them in the shell, but I cook them uh at a simmer for a good uh six, seven minutes before I put the pressure lid on and take the pressure up to um to full pressure.
+
+[34:59] And the reason is is that uh I want that if if I do it the other way, uh I get too many ruptured uh eggs, right? So you want them to set before you uh before you take the pressure way up. Now the other thing is is that if uh uh one of these eggs, the shell does break, it leaches the brown color and the flavor out of the egg into the water because those Maillard products are water soluble. And so you you want to make sure you keep the shell on when you do that. You cook it for about 45, I mean sorry, yeah, 45 minutes to an hour uh at second ring, which is 15 psi, and then you let it cool slowly.
+
+[35:33] Don't uncap it all of a sudden because then you the eggs will blow up on the inside, right? So you let it cool down, you open it, and then uh you have your your hamine eggs and they're great. Now, the other kinds of eggs that uh I do when I'm doing in the pressure cooker, I separate them before uh I do them, right? So I do um I can do egg yolks in the in the in the pressure cooker, and I can do egg whites in the pressure cooker, but I never cook them at the same time together. I separate them.
+
+[36:02] Now the yolks, I was trying I can never get the yolks uh by themselves in the pressure cooker to taste the way that they do in uh a Hamine pressure cooked egg. They never get that chicken giblet flavor. But the trick that I do have with it when I made those muffin things is that by adding a small amount of baking powder, which is again a mistake. I wanted to add soda to it because I wanted to make it more alkaline so that it would have some of those same flavors that it gets when it cooks in the egg itself. But uh the person I told to go run the test for me put in a powder instead.
+
+[36:34] And the actual yolk turns into that muffin thing, which is one of the things I did on the blog. And then I later found out, and that's in modernist cuisine as well. I later found out that uh you don't even need the pressure cooker. You can just mix egg yolks, sugar for flavor, and baking powder, and then steam it in a regular oven, and it turns into a bun. And the amount of baking powder you add changes the texture from something that's very kind of dense and cakey to something that's very kind of hamburger bunny.
+
+[36:59] And um they're they're good. Like they you need to get it just right. Like I like it when there's a little bit of soy and a little bit of sugar in it. Uh but some people really like them and some people really don't like them, those things. Uh and then the whites will brown, you know, you make the brown, but you I've never, as far as I know, I gotta go back and look at the cooking issues blog, but I don't think I ever cook them together, and there's no way I could ever get a yolk to float in the middle of it.
+
+[37:22] That just wouldn't work, right? Right. Right. Okay. Does that answer that question?
+
+[37:27] Pressure cooked eggs. We haven't done that in a while, have we? Not that I remember. No. It's just I was like, but on the other hand, I wouldn't remember because I don't care.
+
+[37:37] You know. You know as well as I do. No, but I know it's the thing like I mean, I think I've done it at home a couple times, but we've never done it for never done it, I haven't done it in event in a long time. People haven't asked us to do a lot of cooking events, but people have mainly asked for cocktail events now. Didn't we do a cooking event recently?
+
+[37:50] Or we did a cooking demo recently. With the Sears all, now that the Cerzo is coming out, hopefully people are gonna ask for more cooking demos again. Yeah. What do you like better? The cooking demos or the cocktail demos?
+
+[38:00] Cocktail demos. Why? Because they're easier? Mm-hmm. Wow.
+
+[38:03] Alright, well, that's honest anyway. I miss doing the cooking demos. You know what I mean? Gotta keep your chopping. Well, because in cooking demos, I'm usually doing like 18 different recipes and pissing everybody off, adding things at the end where with cocktails there's only a certain amount of work you can add.
+
+[38:18] Right? Uh Wow. And that was uh I can't believe we just got through we got through all the questions. Well, actually, we got a we got a question in on uh Twitter, fan of Albert, not Fat Albert, which is one of my kids' favorite shows. Do you like Fat Albert?
+
+[38:32] Mm-hmm. Really? I can't imagine you watching Fat Albert. Well, not anymore. But when you were a kid you did?
+
+[38:36] Yeah. Who's your favorite character? I don't remember. You don't remember the characters? Do you like mushmouth?
+
+[38:42] Yeah. Yeah? Mubbish Mouth. Yeah, he was good, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[38:46] Yeah. Anyway, the movie, uh, I like some of the actors in it. The movie terrible. You see it? Oh, I'm sure.
+
+[38:51] No. Terrible. Terrible. Anyway. So fan of Albert, not Fat Albert, uh, wanted to know why there's not a problem when you freeze French fries before you cook them.
+
+[39:01] Because he's saying, doesn't when you freeze them, wouldn't you get a lot of retrogradation in the French fry, and and that would ruin it, right? Uh and then saying, well, maybe increased water loss for increased crunchiness is why it's why it's good. Well, let me just let me put some stuff out on the table here from the straight thing. So, first of all, starch retrogradation is what happens. So when you cook a starch out, right, uh, it loses its crystalline form and turns into uh what do you know what they call an amorphous form, right?
+
+[39:30] And then, and that's a cooked starch product. Bread, pasta, whatever, right? Right? And that's how it goes from being a crystallized thing to a not crystallizing, loses its crystal structure. Retrogradation is what happens when over time the uh starch recrystallizes, and that's one of the pri and also at the same time gives up water.
+
+[39:50] So recrystallizes and gives up water. And though that is the primary mechanism for bread going stale, right? And for all kind of starch things staling staling, things going stale that way, like potatoes going stale, starch retrogradation. You hate that, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[40:05] Yeah. So uh starch retrogradation is actually halted by not halted, but drastically slowed by freezing. However, so it you're not retrograding when you're at at a tremendous rate, when you're in the freezer. Here's the trick. As you so starch retrogradation is fastest, right, at refrigerator temperature.
+
+[40:30] That's why if anyone ever puts uh bread in the fridge, you uh you should I mean I wouldn't smack them hard. Don't hurt them, but make them understand that you know that bread in the fridge is a horrible idea. Do you ever put bread in the fridge, Daz? No. Are you saying that because you don't want me to get angry?
+
+[40:48] No. I have friends that do it though. What why do you do to them? Nothing. Nothing?
+
+[40:53] They do a lot of things bad, but I don't know. Like what? Give me some more. They don't take the bones out of fish. They shop for food at Walmart.
+
+[40:58] All kinds of stuff. Wow. You need some new friends. I mean, I like most of your friends, but like why don't you yell at them? Because I don't like being that person that brings their job into their friendship.
+
+[41:09] That's not job, that's like life. Like people tell me about like classical music or fashion or all the things that they do. We just leave it out. We leave our life. I don't know.
+
+[41:17] I don't know. Like we at least have some people comment on this. Like, if someone does something that is like a straight up destructor of quality that's easily solved. Like if someone if someone throws tomatoes in the fridge, right? Fresh tomatoes in the fridge, you're not like, hey, it doesn't really you wouldn't look here's how I i i if they're cooking now, or if they've already brought you the tomato that they refrigerated, there's not much you can say.
+
+[41:38] Because you don't want to insult them, right? But if like you see the tomato in the fridge and they're not gonna cook it that night anyway, you take it and be like, you know what? You're you know, you spent good money on this tomato and you're kind of like hosing it by putting it in the in the fridge. Just thought you might want to know. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:54] No, you wouldn't do that? I wouldn't do it. But you're making them better. You're not hurting their feelings, you're not being a jackass. Jack, what do you think about this?
+
+[42:00] Is it okay left? He left. Is it okay to help someone out? It's not okay to help someone out. You're like, hey, you your bread'll keep longer if you take it out of the fridge.
+
+[42:09] No, I had that happen last night. I the girl brought the bread out of the fridge. Oh, Jesus, how bad was it? She uh toasted it. Ah, well, that's the good news.
+
+[42:18] So if you have bread that's staled, you can toast it. Uh, and as it warms, uh the it will get better again. But then as soon as it's cold, it's death. It's a nightmare. It's only good then for breadcrumbs or for rusks.
+
+[42:31] Do you like the word rusk? I surprised. I like the word rusk too. Anyway, so um starch retrogradation happens uh most rapidly uh at fridge temperatures and slightly below fridge temperatures, but uh not at freezer temperatures, right? So freeze freezer temperature is going to be somewhere around minus 20 Celsius, around minus four Fahrenheit.
+
+[42:51] At those places it's pretty uh pretty slowed. But the freezing rate is uh incredibly uh important. So if it takes you a billion years to freeze something, right, then uh then you get a lot of retrogradation during the freezing process. You also get a lot of retrogradation during the thawing process, which is why if you're gonna make French fries that are frozen, right, you want to freeze them relatively quickly, right? And by not super quickly, if you freeze it with liquid nitrogen quickly, you're not gonna get the dehydration phenomenon.
+
+[43:22] So one of the reasons, and this you alluded to this in your question, that French fries, when they're frozen are crunchy, is because freezing is a uh cellular uh can be looked at as a cellular dehydration process because the ice crystals aren't forming on the inside typically of the cells of the plants or or meats that you're freezing. The water is extracted from the cells and frozen extracellularly, the vast majority of it, unless you freeze with liquid nitrogen super quickly, and you can get like, you know, uh very quick uh nucleation of of crystals inside the cell. But that typically doesn't happen. So what happening is is that the water is getting squeezed out, and then when you fry it, right? That water is more easily uh liberated from the French fry, hence crunchier fry.
+
+[44:02] However, you're also getting rid of a lot so you can get a kind of what we call a hollow inside. Do you like the hollow? You don't like french fries, whatever. I'm not gonna talk to you. But like a hollow inside or a hollow core, which I don't really like.
+
+[44:13] I don't really like hollow core fries. I like I like the ins My goal is to have the inside of the fry be like a mashed potato and the outside of the fry be crunchy but not hard. That's what I'm looking for. So freezing a fry has a similar effects to drying the fry before you do your initial uh so you blanch in boiling water or simmering water, you know, boiling water salted, and then you typically dry it and then first fry, second fry. Freezing has a similar effect to drying, however, the uh freezing uh does uh kind of more all the way through the fry instead of like drying, which is more of a surface phenomenon.
+
+[44:50] That makes sense. Anyways, point being that uh if you are going to uh I'm no I'm jumping all over the map here, but from a bread standpoint, the general rule of thumb is that uh every freeze cycle and thaw cycle that you put it through is equal to uh uh assuming you do it relatively quickly, and bread freezes relatively quickly because there's not that much water in it, right? So it it does freeze relatively quickly, it just doesn't have that high of a thermal mass, right? French fries have a higher thermal mass because they have more residual water in them before the second fry. Make sense?
+
+[45:22] Anyways. So uh the rule of thumb that I've read is that every freeze thaw cycle that you put it through is like an entire day of staling. So if you're gonna freeze bread, freeze it right now. Like as soon as you say, as soon as you bring the bread home and you're like, damn, I'm not gonna use this thing in time, freeze it right now because the freeze thaw cycle just by itself is like eating it the next day. Right?
+
+[45:45] Does that make sense? So uh and this is why, and you're losing on both sides, on both the thawing side and the freezing side. You're losing as the bread is spending time in that hyper retrogradation uh retrograding stage of just below fridge temp to just above fringe temp. The rule of thumb that I read is about minus eight to about my to about plus eight Fahrenheit uh Celsius in that region, right? So uh you want to minimize the amount of time that your uh products stay in that zone, which is why the cardinal rule with French fries done this way is fry from frozen.
+
+[46:21] Right? Fry those suckers from frozen and don't go through repeated freeze thaw cycles. If you go through repeated freeze thaw cycles, you're an enemy of quality. And that's all we got this week. If you uh live here in uh New York, stay safe.
+
+[46:36] Don't slip on the way home, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org.
+
+[47:08] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you late, but live on uh what is it, Tuesday? Like every Tuesday. Uh uh Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128.
+
+[0:50] Got Joe running the show in the engineering booth today. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How's it going, Dave? Yeah, all right.
+
+[0:56] All right. Got Stas, the Hammer Lopez, as usual, trying to find some extra questions on the Twitter. Actually using her phone and computer for radio related things today. Is that true? As opposed to business related, yes.
+
+[1:08] Yeah, yeah. Well, uh well, I will. Alright, wait, I'm looking on your Twitter. Well, we're trying to find I think it was uh, you know, uh uh our friend and also museum uh supporter uh I always pronounce it Gene Doe. It's a Jondo like John Doe, but Gene like Doe and Doe like bread.
+
+[1:23] Anyway, I think he was I think he made the egg thing for the circulator because someone said wanted me to comment on it. But we gotta find it. I gotta find the pictures that were sent. I believe it's Shondo's uh thing. Anyway.
+
+[1:34] So uh before you do that, Stas, why don't we talk about some of the fun things we did last week? We did uh on Friday we did an event. Turns out that was a fundraiser for the drawing center, right? Yeah. And uh it was Fran uh Adrias from uh El Bully, the bully, was uh was uh having a show of his sketchbooks, and we had to make cocktails for it.
+
+[1:54] But apparently we'll talk about that in a minute because we have a caller, caller you're on the air. Hi. Uh this is Kellen from Sweden. Wow. I am calling because I've been making tofu and after making tofu for a while, I wanted to make some soy milk, but it tastes awful.
+
+[2:11] It tastes really beanie and gross. Right. Have you had soy milk that you like before by itself? Yeah, definitely. I'm I I'm a vegan, so I eat a lot of soy milk and a lot of it is shit, but uh some of it's alright.
+
+[2:25] Huh. So your question then presumably is how to get rid of the beaniness. Correct. Well, are you making a a thin like how many uh sorry to go uh American units on you, but like roughly like how many um cups of uh soy or how many uh what's your ratio of water to soybean? Uh I think it's about one to like five, like one one cup of beans to five cups of water or something like that.
+
+[2:53] One cup dry to five? Uh soaked. Soaked? Okay. Yeah.
+
+[2:59] So that's kind of medium, right? It's not too thick, it's not too thin. I'm wondering. I'm wondering whether or not you should maybe go thinner to get rid of and you're cooking the heck out of it, right? You're you're straining it and then cooking the heck out of it, yeah?
+
+[3:11] Correct. I've even tried like shocking it. That was a suggestion someone to have on the internet was to shock the beans and then cook them after that, but it didn't seem to make a difference. You mean what do you mean, sho like shock like after you uh they wanted they they were supposedly supposedly the beanie taste is in the skins somewhere, so you were supposed to uh uh shock them in boiling water and then uh cook them again after that, which didn't really make any sense to me, but I gave it a try anyway. And and it didn't work.
+
+[3:38] No. And uh you're not using the soaking water, right? No, correct. Yeah. Uh shoot.
+
+[3:46] And they're soaked all the way through, presumably. Yeah. I wonder so the theory on the internet is that the beanie taste is water soluble and but and can be removed from the whole area. Yeah. I read something about people actually shelling soybeans mechanically somehow, but um that's not really possible at home.
+
+[4:05] Yeah, no. Uh I mean, like obviously when you're doing it s you know, the the outsides will slip off from time to time, but it's not something that you could do in any sort of repeatable way. Um this is interesting, 'cause I I only ever make tofu. I've never tried to make just the milk for the milk's sake. I mean, I've made Yuba and I've made, you know, various kinds of tofu, but I've never uh never tried to focus on just the milk by itself.
+
+[4:31] I'm wondering, you know how like um one of the interesting things about um soy is that you know everyone says that you know it's hard to over soak it, and then some people say, well, you can over soak it, but nobody really says what over soaking means. My theory is that if you've ever let the soybeans soak for a long time, that they start to ferment, and it's kind of the ferment that they're not liking and not any actual sort of over soaking of the bean. I'm wondering if there is something water soluble that's extractable from uh in in a beanie way, whether or not multiple soaks uh with a change of water might help. Uh or or um see, I don't think you'd be wise to do like a pre boil of it before you grind, because I I don't know that's that'll probably affect yield, wouldn't you think so? I I have no clue.
+
+[5:20] Yeah. This is something I'm sure that people have worried about quite extensively because people who buy the stuff commercially probably don't want the beanie taste. And I know that other um you know other foods that have bad beanie taste to them, like guar, for instance, um, you know, commercially they extract the beanie taste from them, charge a premium, but because they don't want the the the beanie the beanie taste. So I'm gonna have to do some research because I've never tried to reduce the beaniness of soy. But it's a huge problem because remember, people dope um all kinds of products with soy all the time, and the and the main uh gripe that they you have with it is the beanie flavor.
+
+[6:00] For instance, and that even the best ones are kind of beanie. Yeah, well, and so like for instance, you know, when you try to like one of the reasons to use soy in in snack foods is to increase uh kind of crunchiness without having to dope with gluten, right? Or to add the protein fraction to things without but beaniness is a constant problem. And the beaniness, the higher temperature that you put something to, the more prevalent that beanie flavor is. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:26] Like really like in terms of uh in terms of like high high high high pressure and temperature uh snack foods, for instance. So um so this is something that people worry about quite a bit, but I I haven't tried to address it. But I've you know, I've had a bunch of tofu questions recently, and I've started, you know, after a couple year hiatus, you know, making tofu on a regular basis again at home. So, you know, I over the next you know a couple of weeks, I'm sure I'll be making a couple of batches of of soy milk. And I feel really dumb.
+
+[6:57] I have not even tasted the soy milk. I just don't even taste it. I look at it to see what it's like, and then I hit it with uh with the coagulant. So I'll look into it and I'll see if I can figure out anything, and then you know, I'll re I'll report back uh on the show. And if anyone out there listening has any ideas, please tweet it in and then we'll have some sort of Twitter exchange about it.
+
+[7:20] Alrighty? Sorry, I couldn't be more direct help. No, that's great. Thank you. All right, cool.
+
+[7:24] Uh we'll we'll work on that. That's an interesting part. You like tofu stas? Or is that one of the things you actually like it? Mm-hmm.
+
+[7:29] Wow, surprisingly. Surprisingly, Stas comes out on the right side of the of the taste uh thing this time. Anyways. So uh before we go into the uh questions that we have, um we're gonna have another caller. All right.
+
+[7:42] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Uh love the show. I found the podcast a little while ago. Uh and I can't stop listening to it.
+
+[7:50] Oh, thanks. I've got a question for you about Sue B brisket. Okay. It's a second cup brisket. Um, and you know, the more research you do online, the fewer answers you find, and the more questions you have.
+
+[8:03] Right. So um what I wanted to do is I've got this stove top smoker. I wanted to throw it in there for about 15 minutes, get some smoke on it, then um, you know, vac it up and put it in for say 72 hours, let it go. Right. I my problem though is um, you know, with the second cup rippy, you've got a lot of collagen in there.
+
+[8:28] So I'm concerned that if I do it at a low temperature, say 140 uh Fahrenheit, then I'm gonna be, you know, it's not gonna melt, and I'm gonna be left with all that collagen in there. Right. So have you done a you've done a lot of low temp long term low temperature cooking already, or no? I wouldn't say a lot. I got myself the ANOVA 2V cooker a couple months ago.
+
+[8:51] Right. And I should say I I love it. Good. I I haven't used that one, so you like it? Yeah, I think it's great.
+
+[8:58] Nice. Alright. And it's cheap. It's 200 bucks. 200 bucks.
+
+[9:01] Can't beat that. Yeah. Um okay, but have you done a lot of long, long time low temp work? Like have you done like, for instance, like short ribs or any of those things? I did.
+
+[9:10] I did short ribs and they were fantastic. What what uh time temperature did you use for the short ribs? For the short ribs, I did I think let's see, 137, I think I did. So that's like 58 Celsius or something like that? Yeah, okay.
+
+[9:26] Yeah. And uh I actually did two bags. I did one with nothing in it, and one I poured some barbecue sauce in. And I actually preferred the one with the barbecue sauce. Okay.
+
+[9:36] Yeah, you need to remember when you're doing long cooks like that though, with sauce, barbecue sauce is quite thick as it is. But one of the mistakes people make when they're bagging this stuff is they uh they put a s uh a sauce in that has a too high of a water content, and then when the meat gives up its liquid as it cooks in the bag, as you notice the other, you know, the other one gave up, you know, its liquid, like it ends up having so much liquid in the bag that it tastes more poached, you know. And so when we did a lot of uh short ribs with more of a French sauce on it at the French culinary, uh, you know, like the comparison we always made is it stops tasting like a braise and more like a pot de feu. You know what I mean? So it's uh yeah, that that that's something to look out for.
+
+[10:12] But so you're cooking like 58 for about how long? I did almost 72 hours. Okay. So here's the here's the here's how it how it works with low temperature. And for brisket specifically, specifically for smoked and barbecue style briskets, you're gonna want to look at uh modernist cuisine and um, you know, Chris Young, because he's a bit of a barbecue fanatic, and so he spent a lot of time worrying about uh kind of smoking and temperatures.
+
+[10:37] But in general, to answer your question, um, the collagen will never render out. The collagen will get soft and it will get uh the everything will get moist, but neither the fat nor the collagen will render. So uh if you look into like one of the benefits of a low temperature, um low temperature uh meat cooked for a long term like this, is that as opposed to a braise, uh it has very high sliceability, right? But very little collagen rendering. Now the difference is in a in a traditional like uh Texas style barbecue, you know, where it's cooked for a long brisket where it's cooked for a long period of time, right?
+
+[11:17] You do get some of that coll you get that some of that collagen rendering, but you also still have sliceability, right? Because it's a different kind of cooking than a braise where everything gets busted up, right? Right. In a low temperature cooking, the temperatures are never high enough for the collagen to melt out of its out of its location once it converts to gelatin. So you end up having very soft, and you know, you still have an uncuous mouthfeel, but it hasn't totally you know imbued the entire piece of meat with that melted collagen.
+
+[11:42] Now, the reason you don't need that when you're doing low temperature work is that you've never overcooked the protein to the point where it requires a lot of extra liquid for uh for it to be palatable again, right? So in a traditional uh long cook, you go from a period of kind of dry, tough meat, all of a sudden it gets good again, right? And you know, it's one of those things you learn when you're doing long temperature uh, you know, like traditional braises or or or or you know, barbecue things like that. Um and low temperature cooking never works that way because you the the trick is is that you never take that first step of overcooking the protein, and then you're just waiting for a long time for the collagen to break down into gelatin, but still it never renders out. The one thing that I will say that bothers people is the fat that never renders out.
+
+[12:28] So, like fat caps and stuff, I tend to trim more in uh when I'm doing low temp meats than I do uh when um you know when I'm doing a traditional where I don't have to worry about it because it's going to render out and go into the sauce anyway. Does that make sense? Yeah that makes sense uh so you the collagen isn't going to have a like I I've never eaten you know unrendered collagen um it's not going to have like a bad taste or mouthfeel no it's gonna be great no the the like the only thing it's not going to break down are you know are are actual you know pieces of grizzle like a lot you know elastin and that kind of stuff won't break down but collagen will break down just fine it just won't melt out of its place. So you'll still see you'll still see it but it it will be soft you know um one thing here's another thing when you're when you're taking into account uh how how things go is that uh and I have a lot more experience with long cooks of short ribs because I have to I used to have to do it incessantly when I was teaching right and so what you notice is is that you choose your you choose how you want the meat to be done right and then you have to choose the time based on the texture that you want. And so what happens is is that um because it you're not overcooking it uh with temperature wise it never is dry and so what happens is it just goes from being tough to progressively more tender and eventually to being mushy okay and and the because the temperatures or that you're cooking with are so low um a couple of degrees makes a big difference in how long you need to cook something to get uh a particular um texture.
+
+[14:07] So for instance, if you cook a short rib uh at fifty-seven degrees uh uh Fahrenheit, uh sorry, fifty-seven degrees Celsius, which is roughly 135 uh degrees Fahrenheit, and you cook that for 24 hours, like pretty much on the on the nose, the that will have the texture of skirt steak. Okay. And I like that. People don't expect it in a short rib, so people usually don't prefer it. But I know a couple of restaurants, I think Roberta's, I think, you know, Carlo used to use a similar number uh uh as that and and sell it almost like it's a steak.
+
+[14:40] It cut eats like a steak. Now if you're doing that way, you don't want any salt or anything on it because it's going to affect the texture and make the texture more cured, right? If you cook that same uh one for 48 to 5 to 56 hours, then you start being in the traditional softness of a short rib, right? And then if you cook that for 72 hours, in my t in my feeling, it's a little too soft. And and what happens when something gets too soft, in my in my opinion, is when you bite in it, the fibers break up too easily and give up their juice kind of too easily.
+
+[15:10] It loses too much of its structure. Now, if you were to do Michelle Richard and and sh and uh uh and uh Bruno Gusot, when they were doing some of their like early kind of you know virtuoso this is what low temperature stuff can do, they were doing short ribs down at like 54.4 degrees Celsius, right? Which is you know, rare, rare. And there they needed they needed a full 72 just to get it to normal uh short rib range, right? Now if you go all the way up to 60, and I think and we've done a lot of tests of you know, 57 is kind of an interesting, which is 135, is really is interesting in that kind of meat because people aren't used to having it that rare.
+
+[15:49] It's like in a mead rare state. Uh, but uh it's still, you know, not so rare that people are like, 'cause some old timers, if you give them a rare, uh a rare brisket like that or a rare short rib, they'll they don't understand it. They're like, What are you doing to me? Are you poisoning me? What's going on?
+
+[16:04] You know what I mean? Uh but I think most people end up preferring uh closer to 60, which is 140, which is you know what the kind of the other numbers that you you've been dealing with. So I think that's a good like 140, and I think at 140, you probably don't need to go more than like 48. So I would test one at like 48 hours, and I think a pre-limb smoke isn't gonna hurt anything from a taste standpoint. But I you know, I wouldn't necessarily expect the awesome smoke ring that you would get out of a traditional thing, although you can have it happen with uh I used to get it by accident sometimes when I you know used curing salts and for like exactly the wrong amount of time I would get it just right, but I've never been the master of the of the smoke ring.
+
+[16:46] But Chris Young has uh detailed this stuff extensively. And I'm sure if you go to Chef Steps.com, Chef Steps.com, I'm sure that they uh will, you know, have like if if they don't have a specific uh um protocol for you that they'll they'll provide one. Right. Yeah, I love Chef Steps. And you actually touched on one follow-up item I wanted to ask about, which was uh salting before putting it in.
+
+[17:10] Right. Um I had read somewhere someone suggested salting uh put some salt and cracked uh pepper on it for and put it in the fridge for about two hours and then get started. Um I've read your rundown on sulfuring steaks before cooking so bead. Right. Um but I wasn't sure how that would apply to say uh a brisket.
+
+[17:32] Well, it it all depends on what you want. So you just have to you have to pay attention. So if you if like the results are pretty clear that if you salt meat before you cook it, and this actually t ties into a question I have to answer uh later today about kosher meats. If you salt meat before cooking kosher too. Oh yeah?
+
+[17:51] All right. Well so there's a the inter you know so like you know you'll hopefully hear later on I have a question on uh you know this the person says I think that kosher meats uh beef specifically you know uh isn't as good or I hear it's not as good he he can't tell because he only eats kosher so he can't do side buys right that's funny that's same with me. Yeah so uh but well well it might as well I'll get into it now and then I'll address anything I miss uh later. So um the issue is if you salt beforehand it changes the texture of the meat. So traditional uh you know steak texture is looser than I don't know any better way to say it but it's looser than not necessarily more tender just looser than meat that's been salted right and you know if you and you could tell the difference even between something that is salted you know and meant to be is sitting around for a while versus something that's even fresh salted w when you're doing koshering on it right now I've read and that's just and this is why you know for you know even you know folks that were non you know kosher right uh back in the day but you know before you know we all forget everyone brines now but I'm pretty sure that you know the the people who were the the the folks that made brining what it is today in the community in in um poultry is uh cooks illustrated.
+
+[19:12] So whether you love them or whether you hate them, I mean I know that's how I got into brining uh and I think most of us, you know, you know, decades ago that's how they got into brining in the early days of Cooks Illustrated in the 90s, early 90s, right? Uh and you know, one of the observations everyone used to make was that, hey, look at uh kosher uh kosher chicken is typically better than um better than a regular chicken when you're cooking it, you know, in a traditional fashion. And the reason is is because it's been salted, right? I mean, uh that mean that's the that is the reason. And so, you know, I think a lot of the the lot of the reason, except for a lot of times they're smaller producers and you can get a higher quality out of it, a lot of the reason to specifically look for a kosher bird once you start brining, uh, you know, is is not there.
+
+[19:57] Now m meats, beef, is not the is not the same. So beef, because you're not cooking it to those higher uh temperatures, you don't really necessarily need the protection that the salting gives you from drying out of the meat when you're cooking it. Because you know, fundamentally the reason to brine uh uh poultry when you're doing it is one for flavor, right? I mean if if it's not for if it's not to get rid of the right for you, one of the primary reasons is to get rid of the blood so that you can, you know, comply with the kosher laws. But uh, you know, the other reasons are to to uh season the meat and to uh have the the salt um alter the conformation to the protein such that they hold on to their water better and respond better to overcooking without drying out.
+
+[20:40] Now in a steak that's going to be cooked rare, that's not an issue because you um you're you're cooking it rare, you're not gonna overcook the the the meat. And so you don't want the salt in there because the altered uh proteins aren't don't taste the same. They don't have the same texture as an unsalted piece of uh rare steak does. They're not bad, they're just different. So um, you know, one of the things that I was wondering is is that I know it's allowed.
+
+[21:11] I went on uh kind of the you know, the the hardest core uh group that I could find was uh you know the uh Shabbat Loblovishers and I looked at their koshering thing and apparently you can get um you know properly slaughtered meat that has not yet been uh salted and salt it yourself at home and if you look at the numbers uh right so to properly kosher a uh a steak you're gonna need to uh soak it for uh I think it's like a half hour I have the numbers in the iPad but it's you know it's gone to sleep right now it's like a half hour or an hour or something like that in water. And that's gonna be fine. That's not going to do uh too much uh damage to it. It'll take on some water but that's not a big deal from a textural standpoint, right? And then you rinse off anything uh you know uh any clots or anything that are on the outside and now you salt it for a half hour right and and that salting for a half hour and then you required uh a you know a triple rinse after that my feeling is if you have a good thick steak and you do that that and you cook it right away that the meat is going to have a very similar texture to uh an unkoshered piece of meat uh from um from a protein standpoint texture so if you know if you can get away with that if you could swing that to do a s then I would do a side by side on that versus one that's uh had the salting done at the butcher shop because from my reading apparently both are allowed and that will allow you to have kind of a side by side on what the you know what the difference would be between something that would salted a long time before and something that hadn't.
+
+[22:44] Now the other thing is, depends on how thorough their rinsing of the salt off is as well, uh, you know, or how thick the piece of meat is. I mean, I don't know what the laws are on how thick a piece of meat you're allowed to kosher that way with it with a simple half hour uh salting. Um but I know this. If you salt a steak and you cook it in uh in a bath for uh an hour, it still tastes like uh a normal steak. If you salt it and you cook it for an hour and a half, you know, uh it still tastes like a normal steak.
+
+[23:14] Th two hours, three hours, then you start having more of the texture of a cured steak even when it's rare. Now, luckily for you, on a brisket, it you know, you're cooking it above that rare temperature anyway, and so you're not gonna have those same issues. Is that make sense? Yeah, so you're saying that it it shouldn't really matter. Not at not at those temperatures.
+
+[23:37] Uh, my feeling is is that once you're above uh like 135 uh or thereabouts, like the difference between uh the salted and the unsalted is not gonna make that much, not gonna make as much of a difference. Uh and if I'm starting with a kosher piece of meat anyway, then there isn't really any sense to salting at home again. Well, I don't know. I mean the question is like, you know, if you cook it and it it I mean again, I don't know how much of the salt is in it and then stays in it after the triple rinse, because remember, you're triple rinsing it after you salt it, it's to get the surface salt off, but I don't know how much is still in the meat, because it's only been sitting a half hour, so a lot's gonna depend on how thick the meat is. Uh, you know, uh a salting beforehand might still make a big difference.
+
+[24:23] Because you remember when you're when you're salting a steak uh to sear it, typically you're putting a boat ton of salt on it. You know what I mean? You grind a lot of pepper on it and you put a good salting on the outside. And now that sucker's sitting in a bag at high temperature for a long time. And so you're getting a lot more salt penetration than you would out of, let's say, a you know, out of a piece of meat that's being koshered for the minimum half an hour salt time on each side.
+
+[24:49] Does that make sense? So it it might still be an issue. I've never done a side-by-side, for instance, on going to a uh coach or busher shop and ordering two different thicknesses of the same cut that have both been salted after they're cut to see whether or not there's a big difference in texture between those low temperature cooked. That'd be an interesting test to run, you know. Um I just don't know.
+
+[25:13] Right. Um I'll put it in a plug if you want to find some kosher meat. My buddy uh runs this company, Grow and Behold in Brooklyn, uh, where you can get some good kosher meat. It's called Grow and Behold? Yeah.
+
+[25:29] Alright. I'll check it out. They do a good job. Yeah, I think so. Alright.
+
+[25:33] And uh just before I go, maybe if you have any uh modernist Super Bowl ideas for next week. Ooh, well, that's more of a stashing. I was gonna ask her what she's doing for the Super Bowl. You're gonna Sears all some stuff? Are you are you having the party at your house or someone else's house?
+
+[25:46] Phil's house. Oh, Phil's house. Nastasha's friends hate food. Is that true or false? It's true.
+
+[25:51] They love food, they just don't care. Phil Phil Br Phil Bravo, who I'm allowed to make fun of because he was supposed to come on the show and like do some announcing for us and never did. Like uh, you know, he's his his like signature dish is bone in overcooked tilapia. So like I doubt they're gonna have any modernist stuff at the Nastasha stuff for you know for Super Bowl. I don't I don't even know if I mean I'm sure I'll have it on because I have a TV this year for the first time in a long time.
+
+[26:15] But you know, like if I was gonna do uh I mean, my here's the other issue. My wife doesn't really like wings. I know this sounds bad, but my wife doesn't like wings because she doesn't like the bones. I like nachos a lot. Maybe I'll make maybe I'll make a boatload of nachos, in which case I'll just be using the Searsol to do a uh to do a uh you know a cheese toast on that.
+
+[26:29] I gotta think about it. We didn't really do any good a good job with thinking the Super Bowl stuff for the uh program, did we, Stuz? No. Because you're the only one that cares, but you don't care about coming up with stuff for the show. So I did the tailgate.
+
+[26:43] Oh yeah, stuzz you well, what do you do with the tailgate? We use it for everything. We grilled sausages, we uh boiled beans by holding it under the pot. We made s'mores. You did the the broth stone, right?
+
+[26:57] Yeah, brass. Yeah, so they did the sausage, they did like the classic like the 140 cook off of the sausage and then uh sear off with the with the cerezal. By the way, like it's not necessarily like it's not really modernist, but the pre-cook of a sausage in uh, you know, whatever kind of sausage you want, your case beef obviously, uh or lamb. Lamb sausage, delicious. Um, you know, pre-cooking it at uh 60, 140, and then doing a like a uh like a flash finish on the outside, it's such a technically superior way to cook a sausage that it surprises me that you would ever cook a sausage a different way unless you know you needed to cook one right now and you didn't want to bust out of circular.
+
+[27:35] But if you had a circulator, I wouldn't see any reason to cook a sausage any different way. Uh so bring it up to tamper at 60. Doesn't matter how long. I let it ride for a while. I usually put it I usually put the the the sausages in uh Ziplocks with uh with a little bit of uh oil and uh I let 'em ride for uh a while, a couple hours usually at sixty.
+
+[27:58] And here here's the reason is that uh in a sausage, um you you're using the the grinder to break up typically tough pieces of meat and uh and the tenurization is a mechanical one, right? Grinding. And then you have fat to lubricate the meat because you're gonna overcook the meat, right? So you know you're gonna overcook the meat and you know that it's tough. So you have a lot of fat and you grind the hell out of it, you put it into a casing sausage.
+
+[28:23] Right. Now, if you uh if you say, Okay, look, I'm gonna go low temp, so I'm not gonna overcook the meat, right? That's one benefit right there. But also remember, each individual grain in the sausage is still from a tougher piece of meat, right? So if you cook it for longer than you normally would, it's gonna tenderize.
+
+[28:40] Now you don't need to cook it for you know, you know, a zillion years, but you know, I let 'em just sit there at at you know uh 140 at 60 for a long time until they're ready to go, and then I let 'em cool down a uh a little bit and then I do a quick sear off. And people love those sausages. They really do. Cool. Gotta give it a try.
+
+[29:00] Yeah. Yeah. I've done any low temperature wings because that would be a home thing, and like I say, my wife doesn't love it. But like I guarantee you you could do a low like here, like a low temperature wing. Here's the problem with a low temperature wing, I gotta say, is that when you um when you're doing um bone in chicken low temp, uh you tend to never lose uh uh that little bit of a uh there's a little bit of a bloodline on the uh on the bone that's very hard to get rid of, so you get this persistent pinking.
+
+[29:29] And if you do it in a vacuum bag, it gets even worse because the sucking the vacuum on uh the chicken bones pulls some of the the pink stuff from the interior of the bone almost, at least that's what I think, to the outside of the meat. And it just those colors never go away when you're doing low temperature cooking. And that's why like uh pretty much a hundred percent of the chicken that I do low temperature, I bone it out first. Uh and so it's not really good for for wings, you know? Yeah.
+
+[29:57] I actually blog has a recipe for uh low temperature chicken wings that I tried and I was not terribly impressed. Yeah, do you remember what their specs were? I don't. This was a few months ago. Yeah, I mean, like I do low temperature chicken all the time, and I think a lot of the problem with low temperature chicken, well, here's what I do.
+
+[30:16] I typically cook the I cook the dark meat boned out, uh, I salt it, and then I cook it in uh in salted milk for about 45 minutes at uh 66 uh or 665, depending on how I feel, and I cook the breast meat at around sixty-four and a half to sixty-five for the same amount of time. Uh and then I pull it out of the bag, flash it, uh flash it dry uh by by letting it air out when it's hot, then I do my uh my breading and and I fry them. And the advantage of doing low temperature uh stuff that way at like a party, let's say, for instance, with Super Bowls, if you have other fried stuff like rings or fries, that you can fry everything at the same high temperature because you don't need to worry about cooking the chicken, it's already cooked. Whereas if you're doing uh like a large fried item like a fried chicken, you would normally have to drastically reduce the temperature of the fry oil or you would never get it cooked all the way through before you burnt the outside. So the pre cook on that I do more from a um more from a workflow um benefit because if you want to do it without doing the traditional pre you know step, you have to do tenders.
+
+[31:28] That's why chicken tenders are such a good idea from a workflow standpoint. Uh not them yeah, and also it's using that crappy piece of meat. But you know what I'm saying, it's like it's like making it small enough so it can cook uh all the way through. Whereas if you have it pre cooked, you don't need to worry about it. Right.
+
+[31:42] All right, very cool. Thank you. All right, well, have a good Super Bowl. Thank you. All right.
+
+[31:44] All right, bye. And so just a shout out to the question who the person who wrote in the original question, uh, June Malka wrote in and said, we we answered it mostly. My question for you today is regarding kosher meat, which you may or may not have experience working with. I've heard numerous times from people who tried both that the quality of kosher steaks they have eaten at kosher restaurants is significantly worse than what is offered at your average non-kosher steakhouse. The discrepancy is blamed on the koshering process that the meat goes through post slaughter.
+
+[32:12] Being that I can't do a side by side uh because I only eat kosher, I wonder if you explain from a theoretical standpoint why this may be the case. I think it has more to do with the actual quality of the meat that's being served rather than the koshering process, but I could very well be wrong. Um my understanding is that meat that is labeled kosher does not have uh to have the USDA grading uh as being primer choice. From my own kosher shopping experiences, I find it very difficult to find the same consistently good looking cuts, similar to what I noticed even in your average grocery butcher's case, and I wonder if this is where the difference lies. Um so anyway, uh I don't know, so that could also be an issue that you don't have access to the high I have a really kind of weird you want to hear a weird one?
+
+[32:47] We have nine minutes. Nine minutes. Um you want to still want to hear a weird one? So okay, so a family member of mine uh, you know, or it used to be a butcher, and they were butchers for uh generations. Right.
+
+[33:02] About the kosher? No, about the So well the way you don't know what story I'm gonna tell. So so hush it. So anyway, so f he was uh a butcher in Boston for many years, and their specialty was lamb. And one of the things that they used to do uh was they would um they would supply the kosher market, right?
+
+[33:19] Because there weren't that many people who were doing their own lamb slaughtering because they would go, you know, up north of Boston and get their own lambs, and then they would uh you know they would do the slaughtering. And they would hire, they'd have, you know, they'd have the uh you know the rabbi there who would do the inspection on the carcasses to make sure that they uh you know were kosher, that there was no blemishes, no problems. Now, here's the problem. They paid the rabbi a specific amount of money to uh check the lamb. Now, the rabbi got paid whether or not the animal passed or not, right?
+
+[33:54] So whether or not they got the kosher stamp on the sucker, uh they had to pay whatever the whatever the inspection charge was. So here's how they used to get around it. There's like, you know, like old sch old school uh like Boston thievery kind of stuff. They would they looked for a long time on what the rabbi would do. And one of the things he would do is he would stick his hand inside of the lamb and uh check to make sure that the lining, the pleura, the uh where the lungs were was not attached, that it was free all the way around.
+
+[34:24] And that was, you know, the main check they would do to make sure that the that the animal wasn't sick or had a problem. So what these guys used to do is they would shove uh uh a knife into a small incision like up north of where the uh the rabbi would check and they would shove their fingers in and separate the pleura from the um uh from the from the you know the thing so it looked clean, and then when they made the when when you know when the rabbi came to make the check and check, then he would give it a kosher whether it was kosher or not. Can you believe that? It's a crazy story. Here's another thing I didn't realize is that you can kosher something with uh with fire as well by broiling it.
+
+[35:01] And in fact, according to uh you know the labovature site I went on, that's really the only way to do liver because you can't apparently salt the blood out of liver, but I had no idea that uh like like real koshered like chicken livers had been broiled till they were half done before they were then cooked again. Did you know that? I did not know that. Did not know. Uh anyway, that was from uh Judah Malka.
+
+[35:23] Uh and so hopefully that uh answered that question. Okay. Um Joshua writes in about uh oh before we get to to that question we got a uh a thing in from Aaron about pedal valves and he said your listeners might like to look up pedalvalve.com uh and because as everyone who who's heard me say it knows I love foot pedals on a sink uh but it's kind of difficult to hook up pedals the way I have them. So Aaron points us to pedalvalve.com which uh you know has residential foot pedals that you can install into they say into any regular sink. Here's the issue though I looked at that website and that'll work.
+
+[35:59] And but for what they want to do you could get almost any mixing pedal valve, for instance TNS brass, and hook it up the way that they want to, although they might they give you the adapters and whatnot. They the the issue on that website is that those foot pedals uh you are required to keep your sink in the on position at all times in order to have the uh foot pedal operate and I don't know whether you can operate them independently. I have to read more right whereas mine the handles the wrist handles are completely independent of the foot. So if you want to operate my sink like a normal sink with handles you can. If you want to operate it with foot pedals you can or any combination thereof.
+
+[36:39] You could have the hot water on with the wrist handle and then I could hit the cold water with the foot pedal to moderate the temperature, I can do anything I want. So that's the real trick that I don't think that the pedal valve uh guys are uh addressing because they're they're not looking to integrate into a particular faucet. They're looking to integrate into most of the uh single mixing uh two uh faucets. Anyway, uh my thoughts on that. Um Joshua writes in about nitro stout and bottles.
+
+[37:07] Uh Dave, Nasasha, Jack, and Joe. Not Jack, he doesn't like us. No. No. Anyway.
+
+[37:12] Uh I've been playing around with beer gas, which uh is a nitrogen and CO2 blend to carbonate different beverages in order to get the creamy carbonated mouthfeel of a nitrostout. I started with clarified fruit juices and got nothing. Uh I added various amounts of gelatin to fruit juice because head retention in beers is protein related and got about 60 seconds of that mouthfeel I wanted before it disappeared. So, what is responsible for the properties that nitro stout has, and how can I alter other beverages to have that same akarimi carbonated mouthfeel for as long as possible. I was just in New York on business and made a beeline for Sambar and Booker and Dax.
+
+[37:44] Booker and Dax always manages to hit it out of the park, so thank you. I also love the apothecary type glass bottles you use. I would love to find uh similar. Where could I get them? Thanks for the great show and for helping my culinary education.
+
+[37:54] Joshua, okay. First of all, on our bottles, uh the small ones, you you know, I looked around, you can get them um online. Best bottles.com has some, they're fancier, uh, and they're like six dollars a piece. I looked on W dot saveoncrafts.com, and they do like weddings and stuff, and they had them on like uh eight-ounce cork top uh clear glass apothecary bottles, like a 12 count case for not that much for like 18 bucks. That's the way I go.
+
+[38:21] The larger ones we use are actually espalon, tequila espalon bottles, uh that they look just like those apothecary bottles but larger uh in 750 size. So we use those. Now, on the uh milk nitrous stuff, um uh here's the deal. Uh beer gas is nitrogen and carbon dioxide, as you say. And the point of beer gas is so that you can have a high pressure on the keg to drive the product through without having a lot of carbonation, right?
+
+[38:51] That's the idea on beer gas. You can have fairly low volumes of carbonation and a fairly high pushing pressure. So the nitrogen is there really to not dissolve into your um not dissolve into your your product that much. Now, on a widget, right, in a Guinness, for instance, like it's there to push through and to create small bubbles that lift up to the top and create that head, right? They're releasing it, they're releasing it that way.
+
+[39:15] Now, these nitro guys don't have a widget in there, right? It's left hand brewing company are the ones that are making this, like the nitro stout. And uh I I can't get I can't speak to what they do, but here's what I think. They said we considered putting a patent, literally they said in 2010, I think, we considered putting a patent on the process, but didn't want our competitors to know how we do it. And here's a little another little secret nitrogen is not very soluble in uh in liquids.
+
+[39:42] And that's really the point of why they're using it in uh beer gas to begin with. Uh my feeling is they're not using nitrogen. My feeling is they're using nitrous oxide, which is what I use all the time to put creamy uh mouthfeel into carbonated beverages and have been doing for a long, long, long time. And that's what like AW Root beer uh did and Sunkiss, they used to have uh um uh creamy sodas that had nitrous in them. Nitrous oxide is completely soluble in gas, doesn't get uh in in liquid, doesn't give a prickly mouthfeel, uh, and create and gives you that that exact thing.
+
+[40:17] So what you can do as a first approximation if you don't have uh if you don't have a source of nitrous, like I have it in the bottles, and I I've, you know, for years I've had a mixing system where I can mix however much nitrous I want in with my carbon dioxide. Is you can uh like kind of precarbonate uh something, then put it into an ISI bottle, right? Uh, and then hit it with some nitrous. Uh, and that'll put nitrous into it, and it'll see whether or not that is kind of the thing that you're looking for. But since you can't make nitrogen dissolve uh effectively in a bottle without a mechanical widget in it, my guess is that uh and again uh I'd be happy to have someone tell me I'm completely wrong, but my guess is that those nitro guys are saying nitrogen but using nitrous, which contains nitrogen, so it's not strictly speaking a lie.
+
+[41:05] But that that is my uh that is my feeling. What'd you say before, Stas? What? Zero minutes now. Wait, they're not gonna let me answer any more questions?
+
+[41:12] How many more do you have? I have a bunch. Here's the thing. I got a I got a question in uh from Sam about parchment paper. I'll deal with that one uh next week.
+
+[41:21] I got another question from Josh in uh Antigua uh about quinoa and about Lupini beans. I did a lot of research actually on the Lupini beans, and I got some information for you, Josh, but I guess we'll have to get to that uh next a week. Uh and with that, that's the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[41:57] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking is the show in your questions to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Albertus Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly twelve to roughly one o'clock. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stuff? I'm sick.
+
+[1:13] Yeah. On the mend or not? You were really sick yesterday. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:17] A little bit better? A little bit better. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jack, you over there?
+
+[1:22] I'm here. You wanted to before we get going, Jack wanted us to plug some of the new stuff. For those of you, uh I don't know whether how people listen to this, whether they're listening to it on the Heritage Radio Network, which we encourage, or uh whether you're getting this off the iTunes or whatnot, but uh at the Heritage Radio Network, we have a fairly new uh format on our website that allows you to pull up kind of little blips and bleeps and blobs of what we think are newsworthy uh things from our various programs. Uh organized by subject along with some s you know special presented and curated things by uh Jack and the crew over there. So why don't you why don't you give people a little uh little little taste of what's going on over there?
+
+[2:01] So what you want to do is just go visit the homepage every day and click one of the pieces. Should we listen to it to a one minute or two minute piece of you here? Well, I mean, they're about to listen to a whole you know. I guess they're about to hear you, right? Yeah.
+
+[2:13] Yeah. Well you got someone that's not me that we can show them a little clip of. Oh, someone that's not you. Yeah, we'll get that after the break, maybe. Let's kick into the show first.
+
+[2:21] All right, we'll do the show. Call in your questions to 7184972128, that's 718497. A 21, a two-eight. Uh, by the way, last week I was told that uh uh I never got to this story with where we're doing the thing with Faron Adria. Oh, yeah.
+
+[2:37] So he's doing this show at the at the drawing center, and they were doing a fundraiser for the drawing center. And I think it was uh, you know, uh images, sketches of foods and ideas and plates and stuff from uh his notebooks, right? I know I didn't see it. Did you see it? Nope.
+
+[2:50] Anywho, Farron was there. I didn't really say I didn't say hello. Uh not because me because it's he doesn't give a rat's too. Anyways, I didn't say hello, but it was like uh Thomas Keller, uh Daniel Balud, uh Dan Barber, uh who who else? I'm missing I'm missing uh whatever.
+
+[3:08] Oh Dominique Ansel? Yeah, anyway. Uh a whole, you know, oh uh Mario Batali, our buddy. Uh so that was uh you know a whole casting crew of uh folks there cooking this uh fundraising meal. Five thousand dollars a plate.
+
+[3:21] Five thousand dollars a plate. Uh and we make cocktails. Uh so anyway, two of the cocktails that uh we put there they're from my book actually, my upcoming book. Which I think I think the title is set now. It's got I think it's called Liquid Intelligence.
+
+[3:35] Not my title idea, my publisher's idea. Yeah, tell me what you guys think. Although liquid intelligence is actually a technical term for a kind of what I don't want to get into it. Anyway, so the um, so I do two, I do this is where the story comes in. So we're sitting there, we're doing that was Piper's Last Day as well.
+
+[3:50] Mm-hmm. Yeah, Piper. No, no longer with the company. Uh we wish him, wish him well. Yeah.
+
+[3:57] Uh so anyway, so it's our our last uh event with Piper. We're sitting there. Thomas Keller comes up, he's like, you know, we're we're plossing, we're busy, you know what I mean? Uh we're not really plossing, just you know, prepping, whatever. Uh and he goes, uh, so you guys, is this gonna be good?
+
+[4:11] He goes like, well, I don't know. I never know whether something's gonna be good or not. You know, I hope. I plan, I try to make everything as good as possible. He's like, Well, you've done all these drinks before, right?
+
+[4:20] He's like, Well, you know, two of the ones are one, you know, drinks off the bar menu, uh, and two are you know, ones that I've never served in public before. He's like, Well, that's really st that's really stupid. That was your mistake. He's like, you know, never go to an event and and uh do something that you haven't done a bunch of times before. I was like, damn, I just got called out as an idiot by Thomas Keller.
+
+[4:43] So I was pretty psyched. I mean, like you could do worse than we get called out uh as an idiot by uh Thomas Keller, am I right? Mm-hmm. You weren't even like Stas was too busy prepping, so she didn't even I don't even think she was paying attention to that. Right?
+
+[4:54] No. No? No. And then right after that, we did an event at our friend Gayland Quinn, who's the person who shifts me to Columbia every now and again, that the country, not the university, which by the way, as everyone knows, you spell Columbia with an O. It's not spelled like Columbia University or like Columbus the guy.
+
+[5:10] It's Columbia. For some reason, Americans, maybe is it New Yorkers or all Americans that can't get that right? I don't know. I have no idea. On the menu of Booker and Dax at one point, because we had a drink called the French Columbian, they put it up as like the French went to Columbia for university.
+
+[5:28] Strange, right? Anyway, strange. I don't get it. Anyway, I don't know where. Oh, yeah.
+
+[5:31] So we were doing an event at uh, you know, uh that restaurant, uh Feel Food, right? Not Phil Bravo food, feel food, and uh Phil Bravo, by the way, who none of you have heard, but someday he will he will regale us, uh, regale us with his mellifulous uh voice and his uh thorough Ravencroft impressions. By the way, those of you who don't know Thor Ravencroft, Thor Ravencroft, uh, not only the uh song in the Grinch, uh Boris Carloff, the voice of the Grinch, but Thor Ravencroft, the uh song. The also the same guy who was uh did the Monster Mash voice and wait for it, Tony the Tiger. And Phil Bravo does an unbelievable Tony the Tiger, and you know, he's just a too much of a jerk to come on and do it for us.
+
+[6:16] Because I want him to come on and do the they're great, but the sad they're great. Phil Bravo doing a sad Tony the Tiger, they're great, is like, you know, life-changing experience. They're great. But he doesn't with like this like the super low, whatever. I don't know how that how the hell they gave me this.
+
+[6:30] So we're doing at Field Food, right? Oh yeah, I remember. So they go to us, hey, look, we're getting these products in from South America, these fruit pureees that like we want you to use cashew fruit puree. Like, all right, I like cashew fruit puree. So we made a drink with it.
+
+[6:42] Uh the problem with cashew fruit uh puree, cashew fruit in general, is it has what I always call kind of a phenolic y note to it, kind of like a plasticky nose to it. Tastes good, but has a pl we mixed it with gin, and then uh uh and then we covered it up with with this chuncho amargo, which is a Peruvian bitters, right? And we liked that drink, we thought it was good. And you even liked it, even though it had gin in it. And Stas, I'm not gonna call her out on this.
+
+[7:04] In other words, oh, I am calling her out right now, is not a fan of gin, but I'm not gonna berate her for it. I'll call you out, but I won't berate you. Like other things, like biscuits, for Christ's sakes. But the uh, but then the other one, they're like, we want you to use one of our nut milks, right? So, like, but they're not like nut milks like that we make, which are like straight ahead, like, you know, nut like milk.
+
+[7:25] Hemp, what was it? Sunflower seed and hemp. Like fresh, cold pressed, like nut milk stuff with no stabilizers, by the way. So we made a drink with that with rum, what was it? Rum, coconut water, and that nut milk.
+
+[7:39] And it's pretty good. And like some simple syrup and and uh lemon juice, right? Lemon juice. So Stas and I are like, Stas and I are like, we're gonna kick this gin instantly. Because they were it was done in a blender and it was like all slushy, it's good.
+
+[7:52] We're gonna kick this thing instantly, and we're gonna sell maybe two of these nut milk drinks, which is how it would happen if we did the event with our normal crew. Those health food folks sucked down that hemp milk like it was I don't know. I don't know what. Stas has a hemp milk face on it. Wow.
+
+[8:11] That well, that was you. I I served no pregnant lady. Stas was like, Stas was like, hey, look it's whatever. Yeah. And she was an English speaker.
+
+[8:23] Yeah. I said it very clear. Yeah. And what what how did you describe the ingredient list? It's not safe.
+
+[8:29] It's not safe for work. Oh, if you could only read Nastasha's lips right now, people, we would no longer have a show. Uh the uh, okay, so uh we have some questions in. Uh oh, by the way, we had a question, remember last week, uh call-in question on uh tofu milk, uh soy milk and beaniness. And I said I would uh research it, and I did.
+
+[8:50] Uh and very interesting. I had a we had a um a uh a tweet in pointing out now, listen, uh person's name is fun, and I'm gonna get in trouble. I'm gonna get in trouble even saying this person's Twitter handle. I will say it because it's not technically a curse but I want you to know senor or senorita fun as the case might be uh you're putting me in a bind. It's inshallah six six six so this is theoretically could be an offensive Twitter handle, right?
+
+[9:19] I don't know. It's like a mix of like of inshallah and six six six what's insular. You know like God you know God willing. I'm gonna do X God willing. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:27] Yeah. Uh so anyway. Stas is not offended. Stats doesn't care. Stas doesn't care.
+
+[9:33] She's like you know Stas is the queen of not giving a rat's like she's like uh what's like the queen and sense insensitiva. That's her like completely yeah she's whatever. But I don't even want to don't even get me started, please. Don't get me started. Anyway uh fun.
+
+[9:50] Thank you for calling out uh the uh shirtleaf as I've mentioned like a zillion times I you know have uh you know um their tofu book that's you know the famous tofu book but uh they came out with a second one called um oh man what the hell is it called it's called Tofu and Soy Milk Production a technical guide and it's much harder to get I don't have it but they sent me information according to shirtleaf now this is like nineteen seventy nine nineteen eighty but I'm sure the research probably still stands the beaniness is primarily caused by uh fat oxidation right uh lipoxygenase enzymes I believe right and the answer to there's several ways you can get around uh hat so what happens is is that the you you you take soybeans and they're fine. And then you blend them and all of a sudden oxygen and broken cell walls and broken cells and you know b the blending of the bean puts the enzyme which formerly was not in contact with either oxygen with neither oxygen nor uh fat gets put into contact with oxygen and fat and very quickly creates those beanie notes that you get in soy milk. Alright. So now someone said you can take the hulls off their parents took the hulls off and indeed it's it seems likely from looking at the composition of uh soybean that that would actually help decrease the the flavor some uh the beanie flavor somewhat uh also using defatted soy meal although that's this is not the point like the like if you're asking me how to make it you're probably not going to be using defatted soy meal right which you know you probably want to use whole soybeans which is what I want to use. So that's one option because if you remove the fat there's no substrate for the uh for the uh lipid oxidation enzymes to work on and therefore no no beanie flavor right third option is to keep the is to grind hot so uh what shirtle says in the book is that if you if you are grinding the soybeans and the temperature of the of the water in the blender never goes below eighty degrees Celsius right then and you can and you maintain that 80 degrees for I forget it's like five to ten minutes then the you will destroy denature the uh the lipid oxidation enzymes but you uh with i and that's it boom without affecting the um yield of the tofu or or the flavor of the or the you know the or the soy milk you won't affect the yield or the texture of it.
+
+[12:16] Whereas, if you were to just cook the soybeans beforehand in simmering water at 80 degrees long enough to deactivate the um enzymes before you blend them, it can adversely affect the texture of the soy milk. It can make it gritty or chalky because you're um swelling uh the the cells and the components, and it's not gonna break up the same way as if you grinded them before they had been cooked. Does this make sense, Daz? Okay. So what do you do?
+
+[12:44] The trick is is to use boiling water and in your blender and to not add any more soy to it than what would require to drop the temperature down below boil. So as long a below 80. So as long as you are adding small amounts, right? So normally when I'm making soy milk stas, I blend the soybeans in a relatively small amount of water in the blender so I don't have to blend too many batches, and then I dump it into a relatively large amount of hot water, right? And remember the reaction takes very place very quickly, so you can't grind quickly and then dump into boiling water, it doesn't work.
+
+[13:15] So it seems to me that the best way to do it, now the the problem though is is to take larger amounts of water, have two boiling pots of water, and do smaller batches with higher amounts of boiling water, and then dump them into your into your boiling pot and keep the thing above 80 for the 10 minutes. The only downside here is um that it might be hard to get good particle size if there's too much water to soybean ratio because there's not as m much solids for your blender blades to act on if it's too uh liquid of a slurry when you're blending. You know what I'm saying, Stas? So it's gonna take some uh some experimentation. But I had some other ideas.
+
+[13:54] I don't know whether I mentioned this uh on the air, but uh it's I had a couple of tofu questions a couple uh months back, and then someone sent me the uh Andrea uh Nguyen uh tofu book, and I read that I started making tofu again, which I hadn't done in a long time. And one of the things that she said that was really interesting was that I never thought about is that you could soak your soybeans and then you could save them for for a couple of days, like a week in the fridge, right, without grinding them or anything. Because the the real pain in the butt about uh you know soybeans, uh tofu is the soak time beforehand. So if you want to make tofu, you know, it's like an hour and a half commitment or something like that. Uh, you know, not working all the time, but it's like an hour and a half.
+
+[14:31] But it but you have to know like eight to ten hours in advance, right? And you can accelerate the soak time somewhat by using warm water, but whatever, there's a limit, you know. Um but then I was uh I read this article uh that says if you soak the soybeans and then freeze them, right, before you grind them with water, uh then you uh you can actually uh increase the firmness of the tofu and get a better they they say that in their texture test that people like it better. Now it's denser, it's more uniform, it coagulates harder and faster with a slightly lower yield because it's got it's denser. Whether you like that more or less is up to you, right?
+
+[15:11] But it's interesting that you can freeze it and get a different textural effect than if you hadn't, and the reason is is that it changes the conformations of the protein slightly. And they froze it in the article that I read. They froze it prior to grinding. So they soaked the beans and then froze the soaked beans and then just thawed the beans with the water in the blender and proceeded as normal. Now, this won't solve your if you're trying to make non-beanie tasting soy milk, this won't solve your problem.
+
+[15:34] In fact, it might exacerbate the problem. But it led me to think that what you you could do is soak your beans, then vac bag them and freeze them for a long period of time, and then just have frozen vac bag soybeans soaked, ready to go for soy milk, which might be awesome. It also might be possible, and I have to look up the numbers, I don't know, to inactivate these uh these enzymes, these um lipoxygenase enzymes, uh, at lower temperatures for longer periods of time in a vac bag, in it you're cooking in a vac bag or even in the soak water. So let's say you had a circulator. Maybe it's possible to um to cook it at a lower temperature, let's say 60, 65 Celsius, before the cell wall is getting too damaged, uh before the the beans are getting too damaged before you're doing too much to the to the beans, and then uh just do that for a long time, wipe out the enzymes, then maybe freeze and process as normal.
+
+[16:27] I'm gonna test like when I have a spare minute, which won't be for a couple of weeks, I'll be testing these things in drips and drabs, and I'll get back to you as I test them because that kind of stuff's uh uh seems interesting. Anyway, long-winded answer to the soy problem. But whatever, I like soy. You know, there's a bunch of people on the interwebs who are anti-soy. I think people are so nutty.
+
+[16:47] There's a there's an article that came out uh recently. I'll try to try to read a few guys for next week. If you guys can tweet in to me what you think about it, uh there's a couple of new studies on sugar. More sugar is the devil kind of studies that are out. Like, you know, like mark of the be sugar is like the mark of the beast.
+
+[17:04] And then and like, you know, the the commentators on the TV. I haven't read the article yet. I didn't get a chance to read it, but the commentators on the TV are are just as rabid as they are normally, like saying that, you know, trying to make some sort of differentiation between uh sugar and fruit and sugar and sugar. Like, and uh, you know, more more like magic bullet, we would all just be okay if we didn't have sugar. But I want to read the actual article, and if anyone could uh see what they see what they think and tweet their uh feelings on it uh into me to help guide me uh as I hopefully have time to uh investigate that for next week's show.
+
+[17:36] Uh okay. Oh, by the way, Stas. Someone wrote in uh uh Richard uh Kokovich wrote in regarding uh you not talking to uh you know telling your friends that they were sticking their tomatoes in the fridge and all this other stuff I talked to them this weekend about it. You did? And what happened?
+
+[17:54] No, I said isn't it funny how I don't tell you guys what to do with your food and they said yeah because we all have really strong personalities and wouldn't stand for it. And I was like that's really weak. Hi I have a really strong personality so I'm gonna ruin everything. I walk around with my underwear over my head and you won't tell me because my personality's so strong I have a giant herb sticking out of my nose and you won't tell me because my personality is strong. That's weak.
+
+[18:20] Personality is strong. I'll let them all know. Uh you should let them know that it is not a a sign of strength to be an idiot with expensive food products and to treat them like crap for no freaking reason. I'm group texting it right now. And Richard agrees with me and he says it's perfectly okay to call out enemies of quality.
+
+[18:39] Recently did so to a friend over uh because of oversteeping his French press coffee. Boom. What do you guys think? I get killed for this all the time. I can't even open my mouth around my friends.
+
+[18:51] Yeah but you know what? You know what? Suck it. If someone like I if someone were to say to you uh you know if you were to do something like just like it's not like okay look if someone is has some sort of horrible like thing that they can't help right then don't bring it up. That's that's being a jackass, right?
+
+[19:14] If someone uh you know can't do any better because they're limited in some way, or they have bad knife skills. You don't walk up to someone who has bad knife skills and man, man, you suck with a knife. You know what I mean? Because that's just being a jerk. And they can't help it because they don't have practice, right?
+
+[19:31] But obliterating an ingredient for no reason when it's just as easy to not obliterate it. It takes no extra effort. In fact, it takes less effort to just leave the tomato on the freaking counter. You know what I mean? It's not, it's it's not the same thing.
+
+[19:48] It's not the same. I won't throw the person under the bus, but I uh tried to tell somebody that there was cooking time on a box of pasta, and they they called me you know pretentious or so, yeah. What's that all about? Wait, you're pretentious to cook pasta for what? Yeah, they're like, I just cook it by feel.
+
+[20:02] That doesn't matter. Well, I tend to disagree, but look, this is a separate subject. I tend to disagree often with the cooking times on the boxes. Stas, of course, who likes to, you know, basically crunch on raw pasta like like she's a rodent breaking into the box in the middle of the night, it also likes a less cooked pasta. True?
+
+[20:20] I like less cooked pasta. I don't know about the rodent thing. Yeah, well, she hates rodents, that's why I compare her to one. She detests all rodents. True or false?
+
+[20:27] Like you don't even like to eat rabbit because you don't like rodents. But the fact of the matter is, it's not pretentious to want your food cooked properly, Jack. Uh it's just not. It's pretentious to tell someone that their food is bad because they didn't spend a lot on it, right? That's pretentious.
+
+[20:42] Yeah. Like, or thinking that you automatically know better than somebody else because you think about it a lot. Pretentious. You know what I mean? Whatever.
+
+[20:53] You know, if someone said to me, you know what, Dave? Uh no, you know what? I actually like the tomatoes in uh the fridge because I like to go to the farmer's market and spend $4 a pound on a tomato and then convert it to texture to a bunch of mealy pulpy paste. I like it, because I like that mealy pulpy paste texture. I'd be like, Phew, alright, sweet.
+
+[21:14] Just like my grandpa used to like be able to choose. If you handed him like a nice wine and like giant jug wines, blind, he would always pick out the jug wine. Not really, I don't think because he liked it, because I think he liked being a jerk and picking out the jug wine. So he could distinguish them. So anyway, it's like if it's an actual personal preference, it's one.
+
+[21:31] If somebody's cooking for you at their house, like why are you gonna bring it to what they're like enjoy the party? Enjoy talking to people about other stuff. Why are you gonna go nitpick in their kitchen? Uh, excuse me, the presumption is not that you're sitting at a table, you walk into the kitchen as though it's a restaurant kitchen, open their fridge, and determine that they've stored their tomatoes in the fridge. It's you're cooking in the kitchen with them.
+
+[21:56] And I believe when we had the original discussion. You just see it from afar. Like you're like a tiny little apartment. How do you see into their fridge? I lived in I lived, by the way, people think back.
+
+[22:14] People, people, people, people. I lived in an 800 square foot apartment with me, my wife, my two kids, a dog, and two hamsters. We're talking like old school, like overcrowding situation, and like 10 years of crap. Recently, I moved into what would be like still a small apartment anywhere else in the world, but a relatively large apartment for Manhattan. Yeah, but you still couldn't see into your fridge in the old apartment from the table.
+
+[22:42] So I'm saying like apartments where the table is like. You can't ever see into the fridge when you're sitting at the table. Maybe there's one seat, and you could see into it from the table where I was. Where have you been? I mean, where have I been?
+
+[22:53] All my friends' apartments. The living room is the kitchen. Jack. Yeah. Jack.
+
+[22:58] Let me ask you a question. Is your fridge oriented in such a way that when you go in? So if someone's sitting and actually having a leisurely conversation, this is stuff this is classic Nastasha just coming up with BS argument. Or that I have that have refrigerators in the same room where the table is. I I defy you to go into your fridge the next time you have people over, get casually get something out of it, close it, and then ask anyone at the table what was in your fridge.
+
+[23:28] Okay. Who hadn't helped you cook, they hadn't been there, and say, hey, how much milk do I have in my fridge? Oh yeah, geez, I have no idea because I'm not looking in your fridge. I'm having a casual conversation with my friends, not about food or being nitpicking. Boom!
+
+[23:43] Boom. Stas actually lives in her fridge, so she's got a little bit of a different kind of a situation. Uh okay. Uh Josh writes in from Antigua. He doesn't think, you know, it's like the point is also, and you try to make it you whenever we have an argument like this, you try to make it into meat, you always bend it towards me doing something jerky.
+
+[24:05] If someone is cooking tomatoes for your meal and they've already ruined them, then yes, you don't say anything because you don't want to point out that they've ruined something that they're gonna serve you because hopefully they're proud and happy to serve you food. If the tomatoes are in the fridge and they're incidental and they're not being cooked, that is when it's okay to talk to them about it. You don't tell someone ever that something that they're serving you is bad or degraded or inferior in any way because that is jerky. Okay. I'm over.
+
+[24:33] You're over what? I'm like, I'm not angry. Uh yeah, I'm angry because you're purposely trying to get me angry by trying to make you angry. Yeah, people you have no. You can't have a conversation unless you win.
+
+[24:43] What? No, I have look. When I'm wrong, what do I say? Barely anything. Say I'm wrong.
+
+[24:44] Okay. You're never wrong, though. I can't think of a time when you're wrong. Hey, you said it, not me. I say it all the time.
+
+[24:58] In fact, like my favorite times are when I'm dead wrong about cooking, recipes, anything. You know why? Because being wrong is the only way you really learn. Uh we learned here to keep those tomatoes out of the fridge. Just keep them out of the damn fridge.
+
+[25:15] I mean, look. Whatever, I don't know if you get into it. Look, a tomato that, like, certain tomatoes can withstand it much better than others. Those little grape tomatoes are fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:26] Uh, but here's the other thing, Stas. Like, who has a like a ton of extra room? If you actually cook, you don't have a lot of room in your fridge anyway. Fridge is always full of stuff if you actually cook, like leftovers, ingredients, all this other stuff. So really anything you can leave out of your fridge is a bonus because fridge space is extremely limited.
+
+[25:47] So it's counter space, though. Well, but you're cooking, it's food, presumably. And once something's shoved into the fridge and you jam it in, you're much more likely to have it spoil and go bad because you don't even see it. I cook with things because I know that I own them. That's why I hate it when people come to my house and wrap stuff in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge, because you might as well just throw it away.
+
+[26:05] If you wrap something in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge, throw that thing away. Because I don't know what's in there. I don't know what's in that aluminum foil. Do you think that the people who come over and they put the stuff away after dinner, you think they label that crap? No.
+
+[26:16] You know what I mean? Do you use aluminum foil for wrapping? Yeah, but we usually know what's in there and we cook it in the next frill break. I have like four people in my house, and it's very hard to keep track of all the stuff that's in there, and like a lot of times I'm having seven, eight, nine people over with like tons of dishes, and they get put away. So in my house, if it goes in there with aluminum foil, it it's done.
+
+[26:36] You know, um that's why like I, you know, I I much prefer like uh quartz and pints because they're like in the eight ounces, like you keep them, they stack really easily for your small. Apparently, you know, I no longer know what it's like to be in a small kitchen. But like uh, but like they stack very well and they uh they take up less space in the fridge and they're completely reusable and microwaveable, although the lids are not. Do you use those things in your house? Mm-hmm.
+
+[27:00] They're good, right? Do you have all three sizes? No. Just quartz? Or just pints?
+
+[27:06] Like, yeah, just quartz. Yeah, I have all three. But uh I was brought to my attention recently that in like places like San Francisco, very few people use them because they perceive them as un-green, I guess because they're plastic. Do you think they perceive them as un-green if we if they knew that they were used over and over and over and over again? I don't know.
+
+[27:24] I mean, do you perceive them as ungreen? I never thought about it. What about you, Jack? You're a relatively green guy. What are your thoughts on the core containers?
+
+[27:31] That's green enough for me. Yeah? Yeah, I use them. Yeah, I love them. And all like, but uh they like outside of New York, a lot of times you don't, or you know, like you like San Francisco, I had a lot of problems, like people telling me that they wouldn't use them.
+
+[27:43] What's that? I mean, like, I use them, especially if I get like, you know, some kind of soup delivered, maybe like some Chinese soup, and you use that same quart container and use it for other leftovers. Yeah, yeah. That's green. All the time.
+
+[27:53] Yeah, well, but uh, but we buy them, and you know, like they get many, many, many uses unless they break or something bad happens to them and they're polypropylene. They can be recycled, whatever. Uh Josh writes in from Antigua. Uh, thanks for your help with my previous question on lobster cookery. I was wondering if you learned anything new about dry lupini beans, as I still have a bunch taking up room in my larder.
+
+[28:13] And next to those beans are a few bags of quinoa. Do you like quinoa sauce? You cook it? No. What about you, Jack?
+
+[28:20] Well, you know, what I've been hearing is that we there are some other better local grains we could be using than quinoa. Well, are you upset because the the the like there was the rush on the quinoa and then the people who used to use it for sustenance couldn't afford it anymore? Right. Yeah. This is the problem always with things like this is that it's like, you know, there's people with nothing, and then all of a sudden somebody wants it, and then a couple of people get something who used to have nothing, and then a bunch of people get shafted.
+
+[28:46] Like it's a lot of like like no-win situations. But us let's presume that you can grow quinoa, you know. Let's let's presume that like you know, you're growing it in America or whatever, right? I mean, if you like the flavor of it. I I like it, but I haven't cooked it that much.
+
+[29:00] We puffed it in the puffing gun. I would imagine that Stas wouldn't like it that much because it's got that weird curly cue look on it. And the curly cue is not your style. It's not. You know, I mean, like I I know you well enough to know even because we've never discussed it before, but that curly cue, and for me, it's reminiscent of a sprout curly cue.
+
+[29:19] It doesn't taste anything like a sprout, but visually it reminds me of sprouts. Uh, and as we all know, I hate sprouts. Uh except except cooked mongue bean sprouts. Okay, so the um unfortunately uh the quinoa uh hasn't been used because I find that no matter how much I rinse the grains, I always have several bites of cooked quinoa that contain grit. I am new to cooking it.
+
+[29:41] Is there something I can do to fix it? Okay, so on the quinoa first. It's interesting. I looked up um a bunch of references because I've only cooked it a couple times, did not have that problem. Uh but there are tons of references uh on online, tons of things.
+
+[29:54] For instance, www.veggieboards.com. Help me cook quinoa without the crunchy bits, which is a very long thread in 210 about it. And the solutions run the gamut from it being a brand by brand difference. Now there definitely are some brands that appear to be much worse than others. But then some people said, you know, get the uh Rob's uh whatever it's Bob's red mill stuff, right?
+
+[30:17] And then someone else is like, I've never had a grit in that one. Then someone else was like, no, I've had grit in that one, uh, back and forth. There's one person on one of these things uh who uh claimed that it's actually oxalate crystals because uh calcium oxalate, which is you know um the same stuff that kidney stones made of, uh accumulates in the leaves of uh of quinoa, and someone said that it is that, but I wasn't able to actually verify that at all. I just someone made reference to it. Um then another person said to not just rinse, but to do a wash with like a slurry, like you're rinsing rice, and then pour the quinoa uh, you know, pour the stuff off the top, and eventually after multiple rinsings, you will get uh you will enrich the quinoa layer at the top uh and the the bottom layer will contain all of the grit.
+
+[31:06] Um possible. Uh I would try uh cooking for a very long, very long time in excess water and draining and seeing if the problem goes away, because it might be possible that you're just not uh uh hydrating all of the things equally and you're having an actual piece of uncooked quinoa, which someone else suggested, but that's easy to test because if you just cook in excess water, then you're gonna uh you're gonna find out whether you were having a lack of hydration and you're getting crunchy uncooked quinoa, or whether or not you actually have excess grit. Um so, anywho, uh, you know, and the problem with rinsing it out, obviously, is that the grains are so freaking small that it's hard to rinse out the grit because how you gonna you can't like have it just fall through, right, Styles? So this other person, uh Geo Cook in one of the things, uh, he he or she actually gold panned it because they're a gold paner, so they sat there and gold pan the quinoa so that all the grit would fall to the bottom. So I saw I couldn't be more help on that.
+
+[32:03] But on the lupini beans, so lupini beans uh contain uh toxins, uh bitter alkaloid toxins that you need to uh leach out. Uh and the fact of the matter is is that they make ones that are sweet that don't have the alkaloids, but apparently people who like the lupini beans, uh do you like lupini beans? You ever eat those things? Well, they usually serve them like cold, like in a pickle or in vinegar, like on the table in oil. Uh anyway.
+
+[32:27] So uh so the steps, and I've looked up a bunch of the things, you really don't want to take any shortcuts on it, and I've tried desperately to look for shortcuts on it. Uh, and I haven't done it myself, but I plan on doing it because I want to try it. Is you you soak the beans overnight in uh in uh excess water, right? And so what you're doing here is uh partially hydrating the beans, just like you would soaking a bean for cooking. Then you dump that water, and then you cook it in water, right?
+
+[32:57] Uh, and they say uh with salt. Now the cooking here is uh softening uh the bean, cooking it so that water can get in and out of it, and leaching out some of the evil poisons. Then you keep, you drain them, put them back in water, and then change the water a bunch of times to slowly over the co course of uh days uh and days, uh could be like a week or more, uh, in water to leech out the alkaloids, and then you can literally just taste them, and when they're no longer bitter, or when they're bitter to your preference, then uh you you pull them out and you and you do whatever you you want with them. But that's that's how you do them. I want to try it.
+
+[33:29] I kinda wanna try it. But that's how that's how that's how you do. But I it's kind of unbelievable to me that they sell them uh and with like no warning on them that you can't just cook this like a bean. But the good news is is that the reason you don't have too much Lupini bean poisoning is that uh apparently if you don't treat them right, they're horribly bitter. So it's not like you would be like, man, there's delicious.
+
+[33:58] I'm gonna eat a whole bunch of this and then die from the die from the poison. Although there there have been cases of uh people who uh were hospitalized due to uh lupini toxicity. Yeah? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[34:08] Hey Dave, we had something really quick come in. Yeah, what's that? About kind of t uh, you know, apps and and techie stuff for food. Uh uh people at TechServe showed us they've got a chef stand for the iPad and this eye grill thing where like you can connect via Bluetooth and see what temperature something's cooking in from another room. Do you have any other sort of like techie apps like that that you like look like using in the kitchen?
+
+[34:30] I use the internets. Yeah. Uh no, I don't know. I don't really know. I mean, I use uh I haven't used any like the digital thermometers.
+
+[34:38] I occasionally use like the Sous V Dash, the one the poly science and those guys uh did together with um with those, but no, I don't I mean I use I use like decent calculators, you know, like pretty decent calculators when I'm doing calculations for things. And I have my own stuff that I've written when I'm when I'm doing uh recipe development, but that's more on a computer, not on an iPad. But I'll think about it. No apps. No, no apps.
+
+[35:02] Uh look, I'll think about it. All right. I'll think about it. Hey, you want to go to a super quick break so we can do that thing before we have to go? Yeah, let's do it.
+
+[35:07] All right. And we're back. I thought you were going to do the thing. Yeah, we're gonna play one right now. It's kind of cheeky.
+
+[35:50] It's called Field of Compost Dreams. And it's a short little news report from Heritage Radio. In Tabbertin.com. HeritageRadio Network.org. Business.
+
+[36:02] Two thousand thirteen was a pretty good year for recycling legislation in New York City. The New York City Council approved legislation banning food service expanded polystreens or EPS or styrofoam. And also approved a bill that would require large restaurants and food manufacturers to compost. That's right. Require large restaurants and food manufacturers in New York City to compost.
+
+[36:23] Sound too good to be true? Well, that's pretty much the case. Our recycling expert and founder of Plastic Bag Laws.com, Jenny Romer, explains the piece of legislation. Commercial composting legislation requires that all large restaurants and food manufacturers compost. And that doesn't take effect until the commissioner finds that there are enough facilities within 100 miles of New York City that will cost effectively take composting.
+
+[36:54] So what that means is the city will force these food establishments to compost when they have somewhere to send the compost to. Makes sense? It's a field of dreams type thing where if you build it, they will come. It's creating a market for compost. Because right now there are companies that make these kind of facilities that aren't going to build them near New York City if there's no market for compost.
+
+[37:17] But if there's a market developed, then they'll create them and then restaurants will have somewhere local or somewhat local within the region to actually compare. Yeah, and so you get like these like curated little thingamajigs, right? On various subjects. By the way, I don't know this, so I'm testing stuff not the the not the process, the word compost, give me some thoughts. It's okay.
+
+[37:43] It's okay. Even though it's like says like compost. Yeah. Alright. Interesting.
+
+[37:48] Uh and so what was her plastic bag thing, by the way? Because as you know, I'm trying to kick the habit. I'm uh I'm Oh, are you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a whole other piece we did.
+
+[37:55] She runs plasticbaglaws.org pushing for plastic la uh bags to be banned in New York City. Um I think what what's gonna happen first would be like a ten cent surcharge to the place, you know, using the plastic bags. So I I I think that would actually get passed on to you. So if you buy something at a bodega, it would be ten cents more for the bigger bigger. Right.
+
+[38:15] Yeah. But I mean, you know, who needs plastic bags? Well, I mean, I'm trying to kick it. So, like, you know, like uh places that encourage you to have your own bags, right? It's easy to uh not to not use them because they push it.
+
+[38:29] Some places like they auto put them into bags, like you know, my local fine fare um supermarket. Um but you know, the other issue is on plastic in general for this kind of stuff, uh like it's very difficult to put your house waste like I'm in an apartment, I have to use these small bags because they things have to fit in my trash chute. And uh what you look up is it's the supply of actual, for instance, completely compostable bags to use as trash bags at home, minimal. You know what I mean? It's like the stuff that they're selling, and that's why I don't even know whether the poop bags I use for the dog, like what like how like real because a lot of these guys they what they do is they make plastic that just breaks up into smaller pieces over time, doesn't really go away, it just turns into like plastic dust, which isn't the same thing as actually going back to the earth.
+
+[39:22] You know, it's that it it's it's a difficult problem because we haven't like none of our systems are developed to um to completely do away with uh with the bags, and sometimes um you know, especially when you're sh you know shopping large quantities, I don't carry those damn carts around me. I hate those freaking things. You know what I mean? Like I'd much rather, and if you've ever seen me shop, I'll carry like 15 heavy bags home and look like I'm lumbering like an elephant home rather than push one of those damn carts. Are you a cart lady?
+
+[39:52] No. What about you, Jack? You a cartman? No cart. Um, you know, 15 bags.
+
+[39:56] I actually like that, you know. Right. How many can I carry? Right. But the issue there is sometimes you don't know how much you're gonna shop for.
+
+[40:02] So like I always said my my actual shoulder bag is quite large. So like I can and I can unflap one of the flaps and turn it into a massive tent to tent stuff underneath it. But if all of a sudden you go over that and the place doesn't carry paper that's decent, then you're in plastic land again. Or if um, you know, like uh you know, Whole Foods, they'll put stuff in paper for you, but you better hope it doesn't rain on the way home. Oh, that's happened to me, yeah.
+
+[40:29] It's bad. Your host. Because what are you gonna do when 'cause I walk home, right? Which is green, or walk or bike home, but then if something rips when you're on a walk, you're done. It's it.
+
+[40:39] You know what I mean? Uh so of course plastic rips often as well, but so Dave, I've got two callers. Let's take the first one first. Alrighty caller, you're on the air. Hey David Nathan from uh Virginia.
+
+[40:50] Hey, how you doing? Good. Um I had a question about uh articles, academic food articles. You mentioned them a lot and I was wondering if you could point uh us to place to look them up. Okay, so here's the problem.
+
+[41:03] Uh m most of the uh scholarly articles online uh are you have to have like a username and password you have to be associated with a university. Okay. Uh I st I may or may not poach somebody else's access to uh a university server to get on it. Uh a lot of what I I use uh primarily I use the search engine called Science Direct which is um um a compilation of El Sevier or uh El Sev I can't put El Sevier j journals but they have a lot of them or I'll use uh some like Wiley or I used to use Blackwell Synergy a lot and they're they're large aggregators of journal uh files and then if you're in a university setting you can also usually do cross database searches for particular things. So it allows you to hone in very quickly on it and then the the really great thing about these sites, because they're built for researchers is that you can cross ref, cross ref.
+
+[42:02] You you know, you can look at their references and sometimes just link through directly. Sometimes, if you have a really good public library, they'll have access to it uh in-house, but they won't let you do it at home because they're all paid service. So some of these things, for instance, in New York, I can get at the NYPL, uh New York Public Library. But you know, s some you can't. But what I recommend is finding a friend, acquaintance, or uh relative who is a professor at a major university, and beg, borrow, and steal from them their online access codes to get into the uh servers.
+
+[42:41] And then you can get all all this stuff. Awesome. Okay, thanks. Hopefully I wasn't giving away to my my uh getting my my connection in trouble. That's why I didn't mention who it is.
+
+[42:51] Caller number two. Caller, you're on the air. Uh yes, I've I've been doing some sous vide, and I've gotten one inch pork chops, put them into a vacuum bag with prunes and dried prunes and dried apricots a hundred and forty-five degrees for six hours. The prunes are wonderful. They're nice and soft and mushy.
+
+[43:13] I bet. Apricots are not. Huh. Why is that? And they're both they're both how is the pork?
+
+[43:22] Oh, the pork's great. Oh, good. Uh huh. So the apricots you're saying got m got mushy and the prunes. No, the prunes got mushy, but the apricots are still, you know, very hard like they're like not tough, but you know, it's not the same mushiness that uh the prunes are.
+
+[43:41] Right. But uh what kind of uh apricots are you using, just out of curiosity. Um dried apricots. But like uh like uh like the the smaller ones or like the big flat, like the Blenheims, are the really sour ones or the not really sour ones? They're not really sour.
+
+[43:56] I guess they're probably about an inch big. Yeah, I know the ones you you can forget. Uh so my you know, my only guess is that um I think the prunes probably have a higher moisture content to begin with, and so they probably break up easier and faster. Uh and if you were to do like a light pre-boil on the apricots, they might they might uh come out, but I don't know. I'd have to run some tests.
+
+[44:21] I don't think in other words, I don't think they're being treated to um I don't think they're being treated to strengthen the pectin any, right? So you could pre-treat an apricot such that the um pectin would degrade much less over time. But at the temperatures that you're cooking, you're not really going to be degrading the pectin anyway. You're gonna be um dealing with the kind of na natural mushiness and plums, I think inherently could probably higher sugar and probably gonna be mushier, and the apric a apricots might benefit from some higher thermal temperatures like above eighty-five or so. That's really gonna break down uh Celsius, gonna break down you know, uh the structure, the pectin structure, if that's what's that's what's holding it together.
+
+[45:03] So you might try like a little pre-treatment on the uh apricot, maybe not even in like a like maybe just a little bit of water in a separate bag, you know, just simmer it for like 15-20 minutes, pull it out, and then add them to your recipe and see whether that helps, although it's an extra step. But uh step. I I've been sort of playing around with it. I've been soaking and I you know preheated some apricots, but I don't know what the sweet spot is, so I'm still trying to figure this out. And I thought I got it pre-done enough, but then my my prunes were wonderful, but my apricots were not, and my son suggested I give you a call.
+
+[45:42] And he he he thought pectin, pectin breakdown, so that probably is it. Yeah, I mean you could try to the problem is that let's say you were to cut the one of the things on the apricots that the kind that you're getting are whole apricots, right? Skin on both sides. So you might want to cut them in half such that you're have access to the center more readily, so you're not trying to rehydrate only through the skin. You could try like a pectin degrading enzyme in there, but I think it's just gonna get mushy.
+
+[46:12] I don't think it's gonna make the texture nice. I think it's just gonna like kind of create a mushy layer around the outside. That's my guess. Um when you say you pre-treated the ap the uh apricots, like what do you just like put them in like uh like boiling water for like five minutes, let them soak up like in a teacup or something like that? Yes.
+
+[46:28] Yeah, and that didn't help it? Uh it helped a little bit, but not enough. Yeah. So and I'm trying so I'm trying to determine what I really should be doing, what the sweet spot is. And they're not chopped, you leave them whole?
+
+[46:40] Um, I cut them in half. Yeah, you already cut them in half. Jeez. All right, well, you know what? Let's see whether anyone out there has any experience with this.
+
+[46:49] Uh, and then, you know, if we hear anything back on Twitter, it's so someone sends to act cooking issues on Twitter like their experience. Because a lot of times I'll get people, they listen, they have a solution, they'll they'll you know, tweet in, and then I can talk about it on on the next show. But off the top of my head, you're doing what I would do. I would pre-treat in hot water, uh, maybe even pre-cook in a bag, cut them in half. Uh, those are all good good steps.
+
+[47:13] You know what you could do that's not that uh hard is put uh cut them in half, put them in the vac bag, right? That you're gonna use for the uh for the pork with a little bit of liquid. Remember, it doesn't there's not gonna break down that well without liquid to help break down the pectin. It takes a much higher temperature to break down the structure of the uh apricot when it's dry than when it's moist. So you whatever liquid you're gonna put in the bag, which shouldn't be too much because it's gonna taste poach, but put them in just with the apricots into the bag, and then immerse the bag in simmering water.
+
+[47:46] Just make sure you don't melt it, right? You can do a light seal on it, whatever, and then just cut open that first seal after it cools down, just cut open that first seal and then put your pork and prunes directly into the bag with the apricots. You don't have to futz around with a bunch of different bags. Vac and reseal and then cook that. Sounds good.
+
+[48:02] I will try it. Alright, and then uh if you can tweet to at cooking issues and tell me what the results were so I can figure out whether any of this stuff works. Okay, terrific. We'll do. Thanks a lot.
+
+[48:11] Thank you. So, Paul, quickly, Paul Paul wrote in and said, Hey, I was thinking about getting myself a second copy of uh Harold McGee's The Curious Cook, but saw two different looking versions on Amazon, Amazon UK actually. Uh uh see the screenshot below. Do you know if they're actually the same and if they're different, which would you recommend? Thanks, Paul.
+
+[48:29] I was gonna get uh Harold to come on, but he couldn't. He's in meetings all morning to say it. But one says, The Curious Cook taking the lid off kitchen facts and fallacies. Uh and that one has a non standard cover on it, and that one's from 1992. The original, The Curious Cook More Kitchen Science and Lore by Harold McGee, November 1990, is the only one I own.
+
+[48:50] That's the original. The other one's probably a British uh kind of uh uh printing of it that was done a couple years after the original. I'm gonna try to uh ask Harold exactly what the difference is between them, but I would go for the good old fashioned, honest to good one that's just the black cover with the yellow thing that says the curious cook. More kitchen and science lore. That's the one I would go with.
+
+[49:12] Uh are they gonna they're gonna cut us off? We got a second. Yep, we're cutting you off. Alright, William McGee, not the other. Diver McGee, I'm gonna get your French fry stuff.
+
+[49:19] And Rodney, I'm gonna get your coconut flower next time. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[49:47] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening to the
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA dot com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:29] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly twelve to roughly twelve forty-five. Call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Joined in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[0:49] Good. Jack, the headphones are really loud. Well Maybe just yours. Oh, actually I'm not, I think mine are too, but normally I don't complain. I just suck it up.
+
+[0:58] I just suck it up. I wonder who was here before you. Someone Someone who's deep? Is that better, guys? Yeah.
+
+[1:04] So listen, uh, Jack, you uh well, you don't are not from Brooklyn anymore, but you still you know the Bushwick news, right? So uh I'm I asked. Oh the chickens? Yeah, so here's the thing. I want you guys to know Heritage Heritage uh Meets, whose offices are right here in Bushwick over on Siegel Street, not involved with the largest cockfighting ring in New York history that was just broken up, uh was it yesterday, the day before you read about this does?
+
+[1:28] They uh the biggest cock writing thing what do you know about it, Jack? I mean, I used to live near some of those places, so I'd see all the live poultry markets kind of walk by, but I didn't realize those live poultry markets were also, you know, underground cockfighting rings. Yeah, yeah. And they they busted a farm in upstate. Oof.
+
+[1:45] And you know, that was uh that was a uh a component of the farm bill that passed, actually, included some some language and legislation on uh being tougher on on animal fighting circuits. So maybe that has something to do with that. Really? I I didn't I did not know that. Yeah.
+
+[2:01] Do you have do we have any good uh references for people to go to on our website for uh our feelings as a as a network on uh the farm bill and what's going on? Absolutely. Yeah. Uh tomorrow on our front page we're gonna run a piece that has opinions from Marion Nessel, uh, Michel Nishon, the folks over at Just Food and a few others. So we kind of sourced a whole bunch of opinions and broke down the farm bill.
+
+[2:24] So check the home page tomorrow. That would be Wednesday. Nice. February twelfth. Nice, good leading.
+
+[2:30] Am I right? Yeah, nice. Nice strong. Okay, uh so we had a question in on the Twitter from uh Matt Schuster saying, uh at Cooking Users, hey Dave, any suggestions for a food dehydrator with a timer for a small fifty-seat restaurant. I want to de-moist things.
+
+[2:48] Well, okay. Uh I don't really have any like m the one I use, I use almost exclusively is uh the Xcaliber, uh which, you know, uh m most restaurant folks that I kn know also use the X caliber. But the question is, how much stuff are you gonna dehydrate uh and and on what kind of a consistent basis? Now the Xcaliber doesn't have a timer on it, but like I say, I haven't used ones with a timer. My main experience comes from either using the Xcaliber or the crappy round ones.
+
+[3:19] Now the Excalibur just beats the pants off of the crappy round ones. Uh and the reason is because it can hold a lot more than the crappy round ones can. And because the way the airflow works in it, it's not coming up through the center, it's kind of passed along all the racks from the back, it's a lot more even rack to rack. But and and the Excalibur is good because it's relatively small for the amount of stuff it can dehydrate. So you know you can dehydrate you know a in the small excaliber, which is when I have you can dehydrate like two pounds of pasta, right?
+
+[3:50] In in one go, uh or you know things like that. Now back w the the kind of kings and queens of dehydration that I have met are the folks at uh pure uh at Pure Food uh and wine, Sarma Mel and Gaius's joint. Uh and back in the day they used to run did you visit that kitchen with me, Stuzz? No. They r they ran the entire kitchen was it was like a library of excaliburs, like excaliburs stocked on X calibers, like w like whole walls of excaliburs.
+
+[4:21] And that I was joking with her when I visited years ago that it was the hottest kitchen I had ever been in in my life, even though it was like raw raw cooking and they didn't have anything because of all those freegan dehydrators running all the time. Excalibur I believe I haven't had time to check it because I just got the tweet in, but Excalibur makes a uh much larger uh version now. Uh and I know some people that have used the Cabela's the Cabela's uh dehydrator, you know, Cabela's the folks that uh you know they sell outdoor gear. Although I hear that I I've never been to a Cabela store. I hear that they that they used to be like the life changing sports store, but now Stas has a new one that we need to go to what's it called?
+
+[4:56] Big bass fishing or something's like in the most amazing store you've ever been in, right? The one in Foxboro. Where's Foxboro? In the stadium, Gillette Stadium. Where what state?
+
+[5:06] Massachusetts. Massachusetts, yeah. And you said it was like the greatest store you've ever visited in your life, right? It is. It had like what what it had that you could get mauled by a bear or something if you wanted it or something.
+
+[5:15] They had shooting, fishing. They had shooting in the store. But w one of those like where you hit the target with the with the not the crappy ones from the uh from the carnival where you they shoot all in different directions and you can't actually knock the star out. No. This was yeah, it was really cool.
+
+[5:31] I took Booker and Dax uh last summer to one of those things and they had to try they wanted to try and shoot that pellet. You know those horrible pellet guns at the Carney things? And like there's one little bit of star left and they don't get the prize. I'm like, kids, that's how it works. You're not supposed to win.
+
+[5:44] This is like learn like kids don't learn. I I still have a twins that I want to do those kinds of things. Did you used to play carnival games as a kid? Because your parents didn't let you, or because you just like even back then, you're like, I hate the garnival games. I don't know, I just never did.
+
+[5:57] No? So anyway, so uh ask yourself why you need uh Matt a timer on your uh dehydrator. Here's what I typically do when I'm dehydrating. And um I'm sorry that my my uh recommendations can't I don't have any personal use of larger ones. You know what I always want to do for really large stuff?
+
+[6:17] Now 5060 seats if you're only doing a couple garnishes, excalibur is great. And then even up to the point of buying two excaliburs, I would do it that way, and here's why. You can have two different excaliburs set to two different drying regimens, uh, and you don't then need to um the brain just turned off. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, that happens sometimes, huh?
+
+[6:35] The brain off. You don't need uh to worry about whether or not two things are different. You can have two things that want to go at different temperatures going at the same time if you just have two excaliburs. Um I've always wanted to someone to do large scale stuff, and I believe the guys uh at uh Pure Food did this. Also Feel Food, uh, you know, Galen and Fernando's place down uh that we did that event at they had uh they have like a bunch of dehydrators.
+
+[6:59] I think they had the larger excaliburs, right? Did you notice back in the kitchen? Yeah. Um, so the what I would do is get a couple of those. When you're using a dehydrator, I don't know that a timer is strictly speaking so necessary.
+
+[7:12] What I tend to do is I start my dehydrators fairly high because uh there's a huge temperature gradient that forms as you 'cause as you're evaporating liquid off of your foods at the get go when they're still fairly high water, uh, you get a lot of evaporative cooling around the surface of your product. And so to speed dehydration, I always start the dehydrator uh at a higher uh temperature. And then I turn it down. So a lot of times when I'm doing puff snacks, uh the main problem is you don't want to over dehydrate because then you don't have enough moisture left in the in the stuff to puff properly. So what I'll do is is I'll I'll jack it to like a hundred and thirty-five, uh, which I don't know what that is in Celsius, but like 135 Fahrenheit uh for a couple of hours, and then I'll just turn it down to low, down to like a hundred or something like this, uh, and then let it ride overnight.
+
+[8:01] Now when the fans are going, it's not gonna pick up a lot of moisture unless it's extremely humid in your kitchen. And it'll slowly equilibrate and come down. And then in the morning, if it's still a little bit too soft, it won't be too dry at this point, but if it's still a little bit too soft, then I can jack the temperature for another hour or so. But I just leave them running on low overnight, is typically what I do. But you have to really low so you don't uh overdry uh your products.
+
+[8:24] If you wanted a project, the Excalibur is a fairly good case, except the plastic on it tends to break, is the only issue with it. You could put a PID on it. I've never done it, but you could get uh uh like you could get some way of measuring humidity at those low temperatures and kind of measure the humidity in the box, or maybe even uh if possible, you could I guess do it on liquid and then drive it with uh with a PID controller so that it would ramp itself down. I haven't done it, uh, but it's technically feasible, and I'd say you could probably do it for under 200 bucks, uh, even with the weird stuff you'd be measuring. Uh trivially less if you just want to put it on a a timer and ramp soak, you can go to uh Albert Instruments or anything like that and buy a uh a controller that you could put on a timer and ramp soak the temperature uh if you didn't care about external measurements, and that would be a trivial problem.
+
+[9:10] That would cost you like on the order of like 45 bucks to do. And you know, if you've never done one before, it would take you probably a couple hours to figure it out. But I always wanted to do that with a bread with a bread proofer. We were gonna do that. Remember years ago we were gonna do that?
+
+[9:22] We never did it. We're gonna convert a giant bread proofer into a dehydrator. I think someone probably does that commercially because it's a good idea and it makes sense. Anyway, uh so much for dehydrators. I was doing a bunch of what was I doing on my dehydrator?
+
+[9:33] Bell pasta recently I was doing. Yeah. Hey, we got a caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, everyone, it's Brian.
+
+[9:41] How you doing? Doing well. Yourself? Good. Um, so two things.
+
+[9:47] One is I have a question about uh bread, but uh first is that uh never heard heard the final answer about making my own koji from the uh the other week. I know, dude. I have not gotten a hold of Ryan yet, is the reason why you haven't gotten the information yet. I need to get a hold of those guys. I've like they've been kind th they haven't been MIA, I've been MIA, which is why you don't have the final answer yet.
+
+[10:10] So we'll start with the other one, and I still owe you that answer. Well, thank you very much. Uh I'll hold on for that. Um but this one has to do with with with bread baking at home. So um I don't have a deck oven uh here, you know, so um I have no possibility of um, you know, injecting steam into into into my oven, you know, through the oven it itself.
+
+[10:32] And so my question is, you know, I've been doing a little bit of reading and I'm looking at uh a couple different books, and one is uh the tartine bread book, which says um uh they they use a um a combo cooker uh it's kind of like a Dutch oven basically um in which the kind of the smaller part um they they kind of bake essentially on the lid um so it's basically like a a Dutch oven um as a way of kind of capturing the steam and then the other one You mean like like la like Leahy style? Lake Leahy style exactly all right so uh except that if you use what's called a combo cooker it makes it easier to to to not burn yourself. Um and then the other other thing and they're made by loads by the way and then the other thing I'm looking at is the Bouchon Bakery um uh a cookbook from um Thomas Keller and Sebastian Ruxell and they're saying basically um take a ridiculous amount of um river stones and chain and put it in in the in the bottom of the of the oven as a way of of catching all the heat and then take a super soaker and inject a huge amount of water into the oven so it all kind of uh turns to turns to steam and I'm kind of wondering what's the best way to get steam into the oven. Which of these two methods would be most effective for bread baking. Okay now your oven is under fired gas oven?
+
+[12:02] Yeah. Okay. It's a standard standard home gas oven. Right but the the heat comes from then from below. Correct.
+
+[12:09] Yeah because you can't pull that like if you have like a an electric oven with uh upper elements and stuff like that you can't pull that lower chain the reason that the chains and whatnot on the bottom of the oven is because that's where the heat is most intense. So that's like an old school uh, you know, bread baker's way to kind of um you know, do you know, clutch uh having not having, you know, real steam injection. And it works the way that it obviously sounds it's gonna work, by um literally you s you put a bunch of you know, st stuff in the bottom with thermal mass, let it heat up, right? And then and the the use I look stones I'd be a little bit wary of because I everyone says like river stones aren't gonna break. I've put stones that I thought were pretty smooth in fires and had them blow up before.
+
+[12:54] Now the ovens probably maybe not be violent enough to blow a stone apart, but I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Uh you know, I've I've put I've put many stones on fires before for various reasons and had them explode, kind of expectacularly explode. Now it's inside of an oven, but you wouldn't want to be lowering your oven and putting your face in there when you're loading something to you know, just to have something explode on you, you know what I mean? Um so I don't know.
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+[13:24] I think that's the super soaker where you could do it from a distance. Yeah, oh yeah, good idea, super soaker. I forgot super so when you said super soaker, you know I was in my head I was thinking spray bottle because that's what I'm used to. Uh so super soaker, interesting. My my kids would love it if I had to bring a super soaker home to cook with.
+
+[13:39] They would absolutely love it. Um but the um so I mean that works, right? Um the you know, I've never done a lot of the like Leahy style, by the way, that thing you call a combo cooker, is that like their camp oven? Is that the Loge camp oven? Like their old school Dutch camp oven.
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+[13:59] So basically it's um it it's got uh like what the lid would have a handle and I think you can cook on it separately. It's kind of like the lid would be the skillet and then you put the the pot kind of right over it is is the is the technique. Yeah. Um in in in this case. Oh inverted.
+
+[14:17] Inverted, yeah. Gotcha. You're not having to like try to jam the your dough into a hot Dutch oven. Yeah, I think that's like the old camp cookers that you could flip the lids on and do stuff like that. They're pretty cool.
+
+[14:30] Is do you like it? I don't have one. I'm I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should get one or if um you know I should go with the with the the Bouchon method. Well do you like the leahy st it do you like that Leahy style, like the no need kind of very loose like uh large internal or regular bubble stuff cooked in a Dutch oven. Do you like it?
+
+[14:52] Um I've I've tried it in a in a Dutch oven at a friend's house and the dough and it tasted fine but the problem is is you gotta shape it into a bowl. Yeah. Right. So you can't have other shapes of bread. Well I mean that dough so loose anyway that you're gonna ha it's gonna be problematic I think to do I mean at least the recipes of it I've tried is very loose.
+
+[15:12] I would try that the But it doesn't matter what you know what the what the dough is necessarily. It's a I guess my question has to do with the method. Right. And and and I guess the other problem with that is that you know does it in addition to what it does in terms of capturing steam, how does it change the temperature of of the bread? Because then you have this kind of radiating heat source around around the bread in addition to the oven.
+
+[15:38] Right. Well I mean I think of it mainly I I haven't thought about the second aspect of it. I've really sp spent most of my kind of the mental energy on thinking about those things about the actual ability of the closed but still vented container to deliver steam to the crust over the initial portion of the bacon before the initial dehydration hits it, right? Right. Um and look it's effective I look I I tend to, you know you know, when I was doing it, I used I didn't use river stones.
+
+[16:09] I had a lot of masonry at the bottom of my oven and I would throw water on it to cause kind of you know violent steam eruptions whenever you know when when I loaded and when I when I didn't and I always had good luck with doing it that way. Uh I never did the chains because I had a lot of masonry. The reason why a lot of people don't recommend and this is the you know the flip side putting a lot of masonry or you know uh or stones or chains or stuff in chains aren't going to affect the thermal mass of your oven as much because metal heats up fairly quickly. Uh but you know in the my the the first one I did which had a boatload of fire brick in it, it would take uh like an hour and a half to heat up all the way. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:51] And you know I solved that in the last oven. I haven't modified my current well I did a little bit but I haven't fully modified my current oven. In my last modified oven I did that I put uh secondary heating elements into into my s into my oven and the secondary heating elements allowed me to heat up a mass of masonry fairly fairly quickly. Uh it which now I'm thinking I'm using less masonry as well more nimbly with with the heating elements in it. So you know if you could get away if you like the results by doing the kind of chain uh and steam method the thing I like about that is it g leaves you a lot more open with loading your oven and futzing around because you're not worried about having to fit inside of some sort of Dutch oven or or skillet thing.
+
+[17:40] You can just have your stone or if you're a a steel person if you if you you know buy the modernist uh uh cooking story and switch to steel instead of stone for your your bottom it gives you much more uh ability to load things in different ways that make sense yeah yeah I mean it just uh it it enables you to to make different shapes I can make baguettes and and things that doesn't have to be round and fit into the into the into the Dutch oven. But as far as steam injection you're not sure which is going to be most effective. No kind of stimulating that okay no but you know look I've had some people say to me hey you know the steam dissipates very quickly when you just put steam in the you know the other thing people used to do is they'd load ice cubes in uh on sheet trays right on the bottom of the hot oven and then they would vaporize fairly quickly because a lot of people complain that the a toss of water on the steam dissipates so quickly that you're not getting the full effect that you would want. That's the argument for the Dutch oven being the better technology because it's going to contain more steam around the bread longer than just throwing the thing in. And that's why some people used to do like kind of ice cubes on the bottom instead of um instead of water because it was guaranteeing like a longer delivery of uh moisture to the to the to the product.
+
+[18:54] I don't necessarily know I believe that I'll tell you what I'm actually gonna do uh but I don't know how how you know much you're allowed to mod up modify your oven. I'm I'm planning on getting um like uh uh there's a most ovens on the side where the control stuff is have a place uh where you can drill a small hole and I'm gonna I was gonna drill a small hole in into it and then uh have a copper tube feeding up out of it with uh uh like a bottle that you could set like an IV drip and just have it drip uh water in and you could change whatever rate you want and actually add water to the oven with the door closed. And that's what I'm gonna do uh you know fairly soon. Like the my just handed my book manuscript in again, the the copy written, so I have a little more time, so hopefully I'm gonna do that in the next couple of weeks. The other thing, have you bought for for loading, have you bought a super peel yet?
+
+[19:47] No, I haven't. You've seen it though? I've seen it. It's like uh you kind of pull it and then the um the canvas kind of rolls down. Yeah, it's freaking awesome.
+
+[19:57] I I haven't got a chance to use it that much, but it's freaking awesome. I got I bought it for my for my kids' birthday party when I was gonna do a bunch of pizza and uh Dag Nabit, it's like I used to style, do you ever do that kind of baking bread and that kind of stuff? I like detest loading stuff off and on peels. So much so that when I used to do pizza, I would make the pizzas on uh parchment paper and then cut the parchment paper out and then just load all of my racks with uh with uh pizza loaded on parchment and then cook them on the parchment paper because it's so easy to load parchment off and on. But the super peel, I like it so far.
+
+[20:33] Check it out. Um it sounds like it's probably really good for really flat dose. Oh yeah. I mean, you because you're not touching, you're not moving it around. If you look, if you've done it done any bread loading on peels before, put the pros always make it look easy, but I don't bake bread that often, you know, and I hate having to to shake it, and then I hate over over, you know, uh overflowering or over whatever you add, whatever your you know proclivities are.
+
+[20:56] On the bottom. On the bottom, I hate that. And then you get that little extra crap of like, you know, either flowery or like burn on the butt. I hate it. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:03] I hate it. And I I hate the thought of it sticking. I hate sitting down there and and scootying around with it near my oven. I hate it. I hate it all.
+
+[21:10] But the super peel, uh, you know, that's a pretty cool little uh piece of uh kit. You can get it on Amazon now by the way. Yeah. Look into it. What do you think about those baking steals that modernist cuisine recommends?
+
+[21:22] You think that just getting the river rocks and uh and the um and the chain is is just as good well the the the River Rocks and the chain is not to bake right on top of. That's for literally just for the steam aspect of it. Right? So it's not meant to replace uh it's not meant to replace the way in which uh heat energy is delivered to the bottom of the crust uh on and you know on initial bake in um in breads. And so the old school way of doing it which was based literally on trying to convert your oven into an you know an old masonry oven you know so if you go and you read like the bread builders by um oh my gosh it's by uh Dove and Wing Scott I think I for I forget the names of the authors, but the bread builders which was one of the first, you know, you know decades ago or whatever a couple decade ago like one of the first kind of really cool like here's how to build a bread oven book for folks like us.
+
+[22:15] And uh you know it's like mimicking a bread oven inside and that's the the baking stone right now the thing about a stone is is that they store heat for a long time but they're very slow kind of at releasing it. It's kind of retained heat kind of technology. Whereas the guys at Modernist Cuisine and I've spoken at length with Chris Young about this who's now running chef steps and I you know I think this was you know in part like his doing uh well at least at least one third in part right because he was you know the second author on that book is you don't need to store up the energy for a long time. Uh you just need to deliver it fairly quickly at the beginning, and so you need a thick enough piece of metal such that it can store enough heat to deliver that heat wall up to your crust. And that is the idea of the steel as opposed to the stone, right?
+
+[23:02] And clearly it's more versatile, but I've just haven't really had an opportunity to use it because by the time that had come out I'd already invested in a bunch of stone and it cooked a bunch of it. But I I have one now. I haven't really used it yet. I'm gonna see whether or not I like it when I fire up my oven neck next time. But you know, they they did a lot of testing and they have a lot of testimonials around it and people are now selling those uh those metal uh things at the at the houseware store.
+
+[23:30] So, you know, clearly clearly it must have some e efficacy. Yeah. Um sounds like it, but I'm wondering if it's too much for it. Sounds good for pizza where you want it want it quick and and and band to to deliver all that heat, but I'm wondering if for bread it might be too much and it would uh w would char the bottom, do you think? I don't know.
+
+[23:50] You know, I don't think it'll char the bottom because it's never gonna reheat up over the top of your initial of your oven temperature. So, you know, if you're if you have uh, you know, depending on how you cook, how you bake, you know, if you uh you know, w if if if you use a ramping temperature, so if you're one of those people that starts a little bit higher and then ramps down a little bit, they the stone will never I mean the uh metal will never heat above your oven temperature. Do you know what I'm saying? What what it will do is deliver that initial oven temperature for uh longer to the bottom of your crust than any other technique will. Uh a stone will deliver a more uh will deliver heat for longer, but once it's depleted will not heat back up to oven temperatures as as quickly or at all.
+
+[24:37] You know what I mean? Right, right. Okay, this has been really, really helpful. Um I'll I'll let you know what I end up going going with and and see what happens. Alright, cool.
+
+[24:47] Let us know. All right. All right. Thanks for a good week. Bye.
+
+[24:49] All right you too. Bye. Uh Thomas Vowe wrote in at cooking issues clarifying with Agar. Agar, my favorite clarification seaweed. You ever notice agar is like the one thing where like we say agar, but like a lot of people technically say agar agar.
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+[25:03] Like they say it twice. Mm-hmm the hydrocolloids so nice they named it twice. Agar agar. Stas hates working with agar, don't you? I do.
+
+[25:12] I do. Remember that time we had to do all that grapefruit and we d did a freestyle on it and then it didn't work and so then we had to do we had to we had to do like quick agar on like gallons and gallons and gallons and gallons of grapefruit. And then we were spinning that sucker in the centrifuge and trying to pour it off and then we kept on having to re spin it to get yield because our yield wasn't good enough and we needed to get that crap out and we had that event. Yeah. And you remember what do you say to me?
+
+[25:37] I'm never doing this again. Yeah I believe that's a stuff. No. It's like three years ago. Yeah you're like I'm never doing this again.
+
+[25:44] Yeah. Yeah. You're like, as for clarification, Dave, not me. I won't do it. You don't mind SPL though.
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+[25:50] You would do Hustino. Yeah, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Uh okay. Uh clarifying with Agar.
+
+[25:56] Juice has a funny medicinal taste post clarify. Is this normal from Agar? Any brand name recommendations? Thanks. Well, I only use telephone brand Agar.
+
+[26:06] Actually that's true. I do only use telephone brand Agar. Uh but that's because you can buy telephone brand Agar from uh grocery stores like uh Asian grocery stores. Now I have that, oh my gosh, I have that Spotify the news thing going away. Asian grocery store.
+
+[26:20] Anyways, so the uh but the thing is uh, you know, you can use any agar as long as you get used to it. I wouldn't use the prehydrated ones or the ones that don't require boiling because although I haven't used them, I know friends of mine who have had bad luck with them. The I've never had an off taste from agar, to be honest. What I would do is taste your literally taste the agar powder and see whether or not you're getting uh any any sort of off taste. What I think is happening is this.
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+[26:47] Uh the taste of juices changes sometimes quite radically when you clarify them. So what's most likely happening, uh, because you you don't specify what kind of juice that you're using, uh, is that um there are some flavor that the this medicinal flavor was present already in the juice, but was being masked by another flavor that was removed by uh uh clearly a a better flavor than was removed that was removed by the agar. So uh just to give you an idea, when you agar clarify orange juice, the remaining orange juice tastes the clarified stuff tastes like sunny D, right? So if you like sunny D, then I guess that's good, but you know, most people want orange juice to taste like orange juice and not like I haven't decided. I think it tastes more like sunny D than like Tang.
+
+[27:36] Have you tasted as does? No. Do you did you drink Tang growing up? No. What about Sunny D?
+
+[27:40] Yeah. D do you like sunny D? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because you grew up with it.
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+[27:44] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh so, anyways, so it uh that's my feeling. So when you clarify grapefruit juice with agar, um it appears to get much sweeter. It's not actually getting sweeter, it's just an Orangeon and some of the bitter components have been stripped from it by the agar.
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+[27:59] So my guess is that it's not the brand of agar you're using, it's the fact that there's flavors getting stripped out of it. But I could be wrong. Taste taste the agar. I'm a big believer in tasting a lot of these things at least once to see kind of what's going on. And some hydrocolloids definitely do add a flavor to it.
+
+[28:16] But think about it. When you're clarifying with agar, you're adding two grams per liter. That's two-tenths of one percent of agar. Uh and you could add you know two graph two grams of straight acid, for instance, wouldn't change uh wouldn't make a liter of product that acidic. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:38] Lime juice for reference is around six percent acidity, and this is two-tenths of one percent or ten times thirty times less acid that's in in lime juice. It's the equivalent of putting uh an umce of lime juice into a liter of of liquid. Anyway, uh so I doubt that, and that's a very strong acid. So I'm doubting that you're getting the flavor transfer off of it, but I could be wrong. Things like methylcel, you st you tend to tend to start tasting once the percentages get you know up into the one percent range, things like this, you know, eight eight tenths of a percent or one percent.
+
+[29:10] Things like uh guar, which can have a very beanie taste, guar if you don't get the good one. Uh fracking guar. Uh it it you know, that can have a beanie taste that you can taste when you get over about half a percent, but um not agar, I haven't had a problem with it. Oh, unless you're using those weird, like unpurified like agar flakelets, which might have god knows what kind of like seaweed residue left in them. You bet you like just make sure you're buying the powder, the powder.
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+[29:38] Uh white powder. Uh should we take a break? Sure. We'll take a break, come back back with cooking issues, Heritage Foods USA is proud to announce our Heritage Rare Breed Chicken Rotation. We've partnered with Frank Reese, the country's preeminent poultry farmer, to create an alternative market for non-industry bred chicken and show our customers what real chicken tastes like.
+
+[30:53] Frank's chickens look and taste different from commodity poultry. They've not been genetically manipulated or pumped with antibiotics to increase their growth rate. Frank breeds and hatches his own birds so he can guarantee the finest animal welfare from start to finish. Order today at Heritage Foods USA dot com. Fine yellow fat.
+
+[31:41] Back with cooking issues. That one excited you, huh? Yeah. Well, good. Anytime you got banjo music, banjo music's the best.
+
+[31:47] I thought it was the chickens that excited you. Well, it's chickens plus banjos. How do you beat chickens plus banjos, especially coming off of a cock fighting bust? Impossible. Hey, Dave, by the way, uh, we were at the Eat Drink Bloody Mary competition again this year.
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+[32:00] Oh, yeah. And I I enjoyed the Booker index uh kind of what was it? Pineapple curry. Did you like it? That's uh I liked it.
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+[32:08] Our bartender, our bartender Austin, that uh that was his uh creation. Only thing uh I uh helped them with is they were having some problem in the uh mid palette, so I hadn't put a little tomato paste in to round out the mid palette. But uh yeah. It did not win. I I heard it did not win.
+
+[32:25] Who won? Uh the the judge's choice went to Dover and then the people's choice went to extra fancy, which was like it's funny. The people's choice went to the the most classic standard Bloody Mary. And I was like where does the line sit? You know, like w when does what you're making cease to be a Bloody Mary, or for that matter any classic cocktail, right?
+
+[32:46] Like look, like like the thing is is that anything that you do, this if you're gonna do classic, you know, you're gonna you're gonna do classic. When people want the crap that they're that they're used to. That's why like every year, like last year, you know, we did the we did the tomato soup with the with this grilled cheese sandwich um for uh for the Bloody Mary. Uh people in general want you know, they want what they want, but they what they what they're used to. It's kinda sad.
+
+[33:12] But like unless they're specifically going someplace to have it reinvented, people in general just kind of want uh the stuff. Well, the one that won, the judge's choice, was it wildly different? It was pretty different. What was it? Uh it had some kind of weird spices in it.
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+[33:27] I I don't re there were a lot to taste. I remember it being one of the funkier ones, though. But I mean it's like, is it even a Bloody Mary anymore at that point? You know? Well, I mean, these contests, right?
+
+[33:38] Like, here's the thing. Look, let's say you were gonna make a contest. People in general, they like a good story. This is a contest now. They like a good story, and you have to reinvent it.
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+[33:50] Otherwise, what's the point? Like, it's not about let's get let's get five people in the room, we'll all make the same daiquiri specs and you'll see who makes the best daiquy. You know what I mean? Uh Bloody Mary is a good one for people because everyone has their own, it's kind of like barbecue sauce. Everyone has like, they're like, Well, my barbecue sauce, exactly how much brown sugar and and uh you know other stuff in it do I put in it, you know, whatever, molasses or whatever, vinegar.
+
+[34:15] It's like because they're all roughly the same, but people are like people are like you know, violently proud of their particular mix of the same ingredients that the next fella uses. Or they're like, I add this one special ingredient that makes mine radically different. It's not really radically different, they're all fairly similar. You know what I mean? Uh and so uh when in contests like that, the there's kind of different ways you can go.
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+[34:37] In a Bloody Mary contest, there's the radical difference idea, and then there's, you know, where you take, hey, I'm doing a spicy tomato based cocktail, now where can I go with that that's totally different, you know? Or you could say, I'm gonna go, you know, with a very similar concept, but then I'm gonna add like my special pickle to it. I'm making a little quotes fingers. And that's another way to, you know, that's another way to kind of handle these contests. In general, someone who does something that has a flavor profile fairly similar to uh what people are used to tends to win.
+
+[35:10] Uh you know, if you have like a little bit of like, you know, flair added to it, like great. But um at least that's been my been my experience. Yeah, funny to see like I don't like Bloody Mary, so all the ones that I was voting for were the ones that didn't taste like Bloody Marys. Wow. You don't like Bloody Mary's what do you have against a Bloody Mary?
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+[35:28] I don't know. It's uh too me it's like a meal. Like a meal. Yeah. S you like Bloody Mary's not really.
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+[35:36] Right? For real? Mm-hmm. What did I my phone won't up to what don't you like about them? It's like a meal.
+
+[35:44] It's heavy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I hate most kind of gloopy uh gloopy drinks, but that's the one that gets a pass for me. I don't like uh I'm part of this new th new thing that we're all starting where you don't have to eat them at uh night.
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+[35:59] I don't think you necessarily need to have the the the mean sorry in the in the morning. I think you can have one at night even though we started the bar with uh with a a drink called um Lady of the night which was a Bloody Mary that was clarified so that you could drink it at night. I think you could drink it during the day. Let's not forget someone asked me this the other day and uh you know I remember when I was a kid you weren't supposed to have gin and tonics in the wintertime. It was summertime only it was the equivalent of where which is the which is the uh holiday that that ends the uh summer stuff um is it labor or labor day labor day you know how you're not supposed to wear white after labor day anyone remember this yeah yeah so uh it was the same way with gin and tonics you weren't supposed to order a gin and tonic after labor day either it's kind of when you can wear white is when you can also order gin gin and tonic, right?
+
+[36:47] I mean, I never wear white, but but the the that's the point. But that taboo is gone. I mean, uh no one has a stigma now walking into a bar and ordering a gin and tonic any time of year. People don't even think of it as a seasonal drink anymore. Uh and so I think the Bloody Mary might be going that way where it's not only seen as you know, kind of a uh a morning thing.
+
+[37:07] I mean, think when you think about it, people can order a Corpse Revivor whenever they want. A Corpse Revivor is meant to uh be a little hair of the dog that bit you for like heavily alcohol infused people in the morning. Anyway. Uh wait, Jack, we got a caller? We do.
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+[37:20] Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, it's me, Don Lee. Hey, Don Lee. I'm calling in to remind you that you are bar backing for us on Sunday at a MoFed fundraiser at the Golden Cadillac. I uh that is uh that is true.
+
+[37:32] That is true. From what time? 5 p.m. to 5 p.m. until 7 p.m.
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+[37:36] We're gonna do $8 cocktails courtesy of Perno Ricard, and all proceeds will be going to uh the Museum of Food and Drink. Are we getting uh are we getting Missy Elliott to recut uh get your freak on with get your drink on for that, or is that later? Uh I think that's gonna be the next fundraiser. Next fundraiser, get your drink on. Get your drink on.
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+[37:54] That'd be great though, right? Yeah, this time you get to come uh harass me and John Daragon bartending together for the first time in three years. And uh he's gonna make some Malibu drinks. I'm gonna make some Kalua drinks, and we're gonna you know, we're gonna apply molecules to make uh bad cocktails taste good. Oh, sweet, sweet.
+
+[38:08] Well, you know, I hate molecules. I don't like them because I don't like matter. I don't like existence, so I detest all forms of molecules. But uh what was the last time you what was the three years ago? What did you guys do three years ago?
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+[38:18] We were at uh PDT. We opened PDT together. That was only three years ago? That was no we opened PDP five years ago. That was only five years ago?
+
+[38:25] Yeah, yeah. Can you believe that? That was only five years ago? It seems like eight lifetimes ago. Yep.
+
+[38:30] So yeah, Don Lee and uh John Darragon were the opening team at PDT. And brought you such drinks as the Bentons, what was it, Bentons? What'd you call that drink? The Bentons old fashioned. Yeah, with the with the fat washed uh the fat washed uh with the fat wash bourbon, uh Benton's bacon into four roses yellow label.
+
+[38:50] And uh and for the record, you're allowed to totally do bacon infuse whatever you want. I'm not gonna give you a shit about that. No, but I'm not uh I will never do it. I won't. Like you guys own that.
+
+[38:59] It's like in fact, in the cocktail book, like the the Maria made me put a fat washed uh that's my editor, maybe put a fat wash drink in. And so I did a take on do you remember um to you know Tona uh Palomino who was a WD50 is now uh doing bar in uh in uh Chicago? He had a drink on the menu at WD called uh old school back in like oh seven. And old school was fat washed uh um what's it called? What's that stuff called?
+
+[39:26] Peanut butter. But it was uh he did it on flourage style. He would like spread a thin layer of peanut butter on the bottom of a hotel pan and then pour the stuff on top, and then they would let it sit in the fridge forever because he was gonna carbonate it. So he couldn't uh he couldn't mix it in because peanut butter has a lot of stuff that dissolves into the liquid and doesn't doesn't cap out the way bacon does, right? Right.
+
+[39:47] And so uh yeah, so he did that and then he would mix in uh Welch's grape jelly and then carbonate it, which is awesome, right? So I did I did a take on on that one because I figure, you know, PB and J. And so many other people have ripped on the on the bacon thing that like, you know, I could I couldn't add like another there was there was no places left on the page to tear. I couldn't rip on it anymore. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:08] Uh so anyway, but yeah, so the for those of you uh you know, you should come and the re teamed original PDT team, OG P D T, right? Don Lee, for those of you that uh don't keep track of Don Lee's career, as I'm sure most of you do, uh, is now uh doing the bar program. With is it cocktail kingdom, uh, but is now doing the bar program. Is that temporary or is that permanent? It's permanent.
+
+[40:33] And so I'm still at Cocktail Kingdom, and then I'm also doing Golden Cadillac. No, I'm at Golden Cadillac. That's permanent bar program or that's temporary? Permanent bar program. Okay.
+
+[40:40] So Don Lee is now running the bar program at Golden Cadillac, which is a fine bar on first and first here in uh it's the easiest address to remember in the world. First and first. I couldn't remember what the street was. First and first. Uh Golden Cadillac.
+
+[40:53] And uh you got the awesome menus with like the with the really poorly done 70 style cutouts of the drinks on the back. I like that. We're trying to keep it classy. It it's totally, totally classy. You can go there and get an overproof daiquari with tell them the garnish done.
+
+[41:07] A disco ball. It's the disco daiquiri. Yeah, I have I have a couple of those. They're a little the you shouldn't can you like in the future, they're I think they're key rings, right? Can you get them instead with um with like those uh those cheap earring settings on them so that so that the people can wear them as earrings on the way out?
+
+[41:24] Well, we're gonna get the new uh instead of being the regular key ring, we're getting the key ring that's more like a carabiner, so it'll just clip on the side, so you can clip it on to whatever you want. Oh, nice. All right. Well, I'll have to come back and get some more uh get some more stuff. So come to the Golden Cadillac on first and first on Sunday, Sunday Sunday, where I will be applying my bar back skills between 5 and 7 p.m.
+
+[41:45] for the Museum of Food and Drink, bar backing for the great John Darragon and Don Lee. Right? Sounds great. Alright, dude. Alright, brother.
+
+[41:54] Anything else or just doing some business? Uh I got I got one uh thing to chime in on last week's uh podcast or uh show that you guys did. Uh since you give away all your great secrets, I'll give you one of my secrets. For the person who wanted to know how to get to the the different science resources in the on the internet that are behind a paywall. Oh, yeah, okay, good.
+
+[42:12] I want to know, yeah, okay, good. So if you are part of a uh major city library system like the New York Public Library or you know, Los Angeles Public Library, any of these big city ones, they usually have a sharing system with the university library. So you can usually request a book from a university library and they'll just send it to your local library so you can borrow it for some fixed amount of time. However, if there is a reference book that the library that's at the university does not lend out, they will give you a one-time, one-day pass to go into the university library to see the reference book. So most science um journals are considered a reference book, and so they're not lent out.
+
+[42:49] But if you look up uh on any university library system, you know, let's say NYU or Columbia, for example, here in New York City, through the New York public library system, they will carry all the journals. Probably not even physical form, probably in digital form. But if you get the one time pass, once you're in the library, now you're behind the paywall. Now you can do whatever you want. You know, what I do is just go in for a day, scrape every article I can, follow all the links, all the different uh references, and then I'll just read them in my spare time later.
+
+[43:17] Strong advice from Don Lee. Also, by the way, uh Don and well, even John in his current life are kind of uh like date computer data nerds. Am I right about this? Uh, he's pulling me back in. Pulling you back in.
+
+[43:32] But that's why that's why you should well I'm I'm I'm giving that as a reason why they should know the tip. And by the way, Don Lee, a tip from Don Lee is a guarantee because the man always like whenever whenever there's a question and like you need some sort of hookup, you just ask Don because he's already figured the hookup. Am I right? You know, I'm prepared for the zombie apocalypse. Yeah, dude.
+
+[43:54] This is one of the things that you guys have to know about Don Lee. If I could give you one piece of advice on this podcast is make friends with Don Lee. Seriously. Alright, Don. I'll see you on Sunday, brother.
+
+[44:04] See you soon. All right. Okay. So we had a question in from Paris, France. Two or three weeks ago, you had two separate questions on one vegetable canned soup that has to be heated for a lot of pasteurization, which affects the flavor.
+
+[44:17] And two, how beer and soda cans are better at keeping the carbonation than plastic bottles are. But doesn't soda canning uh require both cold temperatures to preserve carbonations and the same level of hygiene pasteurization as soup. I didn't do that answer this question already? No. Okay.
+
+[44:31] Uh in that case, uh, it would it be possible to can vegetable soup at a low enough temperature so that we don't kill the flavors and uh respect appropriate food safety procedures. Do I miss some fundamental differences in the two type of processes? Best and keep up the good works, stand B. Yeah, this is very, very different. Here's the deal.
+
+[44:49] So um when you are when you have uh uh beer uh and and soda, right, in a can, there you st any time you have uh soda, uh the carbonation in the soda is acting to do the vast majority of the work when it comes to um when it comes to killing off bacteria because carbon dioxide is extremely bacteriostatic, right? So in addition to that, a lot of times old school sodas that can't be pasteurized at all have uh benz a little bit of sodium benzoate added to it, uh sometimes potassium sorbate. And they're added as preservatives, primarily not to stop dangerous things from growing, because ain't nothing dangerous going to grow inside of that uh because of the carbon dioxide, but to prevent yeast from growing and converting the sugar uh to alcohol and ha and causing the flavors of the of the thing to go off, right? That's the primary function, and that's why you pasteurize uh products uh like sodas and whatnot. But you don't have to do a sterilization on soda uh or on a beer, uh the same way you would have to, so you don't have to go to the same high pressures or temperatures, which are related to pressure, you don't have to go to the same high temperatures on a beer because it's enough to kill the yeast, right?
+
+[46:11] Because you're not really worried about the bacteria, but to kill the yeast and any vegetative stuff, because no spores are gonna generate inside of the product now spores, the spools. But on the other hand, if you have soup, right, you need to heat it to a high enough temperature, canning temperatures, so that you can get everything in there dead because you're gonna keep it at uh on shelf uh shelf temperature uh for God knows how long, and you can't have nasty anaerobic things growing inside of there like botulism, which could cause the cans to blow up and whatnot and kill you. Yeah, they can blown up. That's what I'm worried about first. The camp blowing up.
+
+[46:47] No, it'll kill you. Uh so in general, sodas are acidic, which is gonna prevent things like that from happening, and um fill with carbon dioxide, which definitely is gonna prevent things like that happening. So they're fundamentally um they're fundamentally uh different for uh pasteurization problem from uh the soup. Yeah? Yep.
+
+[47:06] Yeah. All right, I was like, I got some more questions in on of the Twitter. Uh where is it? Where is it? Oh, so this is from uh EC North America.
+
+[47:18] By the way, they now go just by EC, not EC or ISI. They just launched the uh rapid infusion kit that uh they say they say new EC rapid infusion kit just launched, inspired by the creator brainchild of rapid infusion at cooking issues. And they sent a Twitter feed out of it, see what it looks like. You want to see what it looks like? Nah, nah, don't really care.
+
+[47:39] No. No. Inspired. Oh look oh my gosh. You're gonna you're gonna think the look of it, look at take a look at Stas.
+
+[47:44] You can't see it on the line, but we could post a picture of it. Is that does the little rubber thing freak you out a little bit? Yeah. I mean you know I love the I love the EC, but it's looking a little bit like a sex toy there. Yeah.
+
+[47:54] Jack, you gotta look at look that up and throw that up on on our thing. Uh last week we had a question, and for some reason I can't find my uh old uh questions, but we had a question on um parchment paper and talking about parchment paper and kind of what it is and what's the difference between all the different kinds of uh parchment paper. So I'll talk a little bit about that now. Uh the the thing about parchment papers is a lot of people and uh no one probably who no one will know that remember that that was uh no one will know that's uh psychic friends network. But who did that?
+
+[48:25] That was Jay Moore who did the Psychic Friends Network pretending to be Christopher Walken. And Travis, my brother-in-law, is shooting the the you know the cocktail book. He uh he's started saying that to me over and over again. So now like whenever anyone says that, we we we I love like how many times in my life do we i imitate the fake imitation of somebody else, right? So I I'm not even doing Christopher Walken, I'm doing Jay Moore doing Christopher Walking, Christopher Walken.
+
+[48:50] Todd Bridges can be at your house in your driveway, no one will know. Uh the theory of that w was that a bunch of whack jobs Todd Bridges actually was a nice guy. I met him. Uh when remember when we did that show that time? They're having me doing about safety or something like this and and low temperament, meat glue and safety.
+
+[49:07] Remember when they're the big thing was going around and everyone was worried about it, and we did some show, so Fox or something like this, and Todd Bridges was on? Sweet dude. Sweet dude. Todd Bridges Willis, by the way, for those of you that don't remember uh the good the uh the different strokes. Do you watch different strokes?
+
+[49:22] No. Really? Mm-hmm. Not at all? No.
+
+[49:25] What about you, Jack? Uh sorry, no, I don't. What the hell? Like, like I feel like you guys had entirely different childhoods from the than the one I uh I had. Anyway, so uh parchment.
+
+[49:37] So a lot of people mistake uh wax paper for parchment. You you guys don't make that mistake. You would never make that mistake, right? If I asked you for parchment paper, you'd never show up with wax paper, right? Right.
+
+[49:47] Because it's coated with what? Wax. Wax. Parchment paper is meant to cook with. Wax paper is great.
+
+[49:52] I love wax paper, but I can't tell you how many people confuse wax paper and parchment, which is ridiculous. The other one, you know what people do? People are like, tonic water doesn't have any sugar in it because it's like salsa, right? Wrong. Tonic water has as much sugar in it as a regular soda does.
+
+[50:08] As much. It's around 10% sugar. You ever make that mistake, Style? You never made that mistake. Nope.
+
+[50:13] Jack, would you ever make that mistake? No. No. They're like, uh I'm not gonna say it. I don't like the uh they said I don't want to deal with it.
+
+[50:19] So uh most parchment paper that you buy nowadays, and and by that I mean I buy Reynolds brand typically, uh, is coated with silicone. And that's really where a lot of a lot of the non-stickness of it comes from. Now, what I don't know about parchment paper, I wasn't able to do anything uh kind of big on it, is that I I would use parchment paper on my pizzas all the time. The only issue is is that my pizza oven would get well above the decomposition temperatures of silicone, and so I'm wondering whether or not it was actually kind of a bad idea to put the parchment paper into a place where it's gonna get you know fundamentally incinerated. It used to be if I didn't cut, I would have to cut the parchment paper all around the pizza dough and load it in because the stuff around the sides would catch on fire otherwise.
+
+[51:02] You know, the stuff right underneath the pizza had the pizza protected, so it's not gonna get burnt and it separates great. But the separate separates great. What am I speaking English? Separates well. But the it's great.
+
+[51:12] Uh but the uh uh so it's the silicone, the silicone impregnated silicone that that it has it work. All the parchment papers that I use have that silicone. There's a new parchment paper out there that has uh aluminum bonded to one side of it, so it's aluminum foil on one side and parchment on the other, and it's sold as baking pan liners, and the theoretical advantage of it is it lays a lot flatter than parchment paper does, but I can't really tell you whether whether you know how awesome it is. I used it and all I noted was that it was a lot more expensive than uh the other stuff. But in general, I'm a big fan of parchment paper, and I hope that helps a little a bit.
+
+[51:49] Um, I found my other questions from last week. William McGee wrote in. I didn't answer about French fry cutters, did I? No. William McGee wrote in and said, Do you have any recommendations for French fry cutters for home use?
+
+[52:00] I've seen models both horizontal and vertical. Also on the Kickstarter for the Sears All, you had a recipe book available to higher level backers. Will you have this recipe book available separately at a later date for purchase? Thanks, William McGee. Stas, will we?
+
+[52:13] Yes. You've made that up. Yes. Yes. Uh okay.
+
+[52:19] So French fry cutters. I here's the deal. Uh avoid any plastic French fry cutter. Just avoid them. Because why?
+
+[52:26] They're gonna break. They're useless, right? Uh I the French fry cutter that I use uh looks hor looks is is the one that's kind of vertically mounted. I use it horizontally unmounted because I haven't had a place to uh mount my French fry cutter in in years. Um but I like that I like that style, the vertical mounted style with the with the thing in the front that looks like uh what does it look like?
+
+[52:44] It's hard to describe. It's got like a swoopy handle. You've seen my French fry cutter, right, son? It's got a swoopy handle, and it's made of that's made of cast metal, and then the whole thing's bolted together with I think three eighths inch screws and holds the uh cutting plate in the front, and there's uh like a V sa V-shaped um uh like kind of sliding chute and then uh a plunger on it, and the plunger actually engages the blades, right? And you need to replace the blades every once in a while because they get they get dull.
+
+[53:17] But I use that thing and I can slam through fifty, I can slam through 10 pounds of potatoes with it in like two and a half, three minutes, like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Now, the best, the best is to have it mounted on a wall, right? Here's what you do you have it mounted on a wall, and then you have your peeled potatoes in one container, like a hotel pan full of water, and then you have a hotel pan of water directly underneath the French fry cutter. And this is why the wall-mounted one is great. You have it directly underneath it, and then you load the potatoes and you cut them directly into the water.
+
+[53:53] Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, and it stops you from getting a lot of discoloration, right? In between the cutting time, or if you're gonna do a soak before you cook them, between the cutting time and the and the and and doing the initial water blanch, assuming you do a water blanch. I'm assuming you do. Uh and you know, also they make different size cutters, but I've never used a shoestring one. I I use uh three eighths uh or slightly larger half inch cutting rings for mine.
+
+[54:18] I have two plates for mine. Anyways, so uh cutting into water like that is fantastic and it's so neat. It means there's so little mess, right? So typical my whole French fry production for the cutting standpoint is uh put the put them in the sink, fill the sink with water, throw the potatoes in, stir them around with my hands, knock off all of the uh loose dirt, you know, roll them around in there, pull pull the pull the plug, get a hotel pan, peel uh, you know, peel over uh a bowl uh with some with uh some running water, rinse it off, throw them into water. Now they're peeled, and you've made sure you've gotten all of the the reason to peel your fries, by the way, two reasons.
+
+[54:53] I know it's nutritionally a bad idea to peel fries. Do you peel your stuff before you make fries? You don't like fries, forget you. Do you like baked potatoes? Mm-hmm.
+
+[55:00] Anyway, so I like the taste of the skin, right? But uh when you're doing French fries, the skin kind of never gets as crunchy as the rest of the stuff. I mean, I like but I like them jacketed fries, but meh, I like potato skins that have been cooked super crunchy. The other problem is is that potatoes, I don't know about the potatoes you guys get, but the potatoes I get potatoes. The potatoes that I get always have some uh like some bad spots underneath that you can't see.
+
+[55:26] And commercially, they what they do is they spray potatoes with high pressure water and it eats away all the soft parts. Uh, but I hate getting those. So when you peel them, you can see them. Jack, what's your feeling? Skin on or skin off this right?
+
+[55:37] Nah, man. Sorry. Jesus. Uh but why? Because you like the taste of the skins.
+
+[55:42] You know they're not as crunchy. You realize they're not as crunchy. And that's okay. You're okay with that. Yeah, I like the tastes.
+
+[55:47] Yeah? Yeah. Prove me wrong. The taste, the taste. No, I I understand why you do that.
+
+[55:52] By the way, I'm doing today's show in chaps. Chaps, chaps. I'm wearing cow chaps. I'm gonna steal these suckers, Jack. Yeah, I I think you should.
+
+[56:00] Yeah. So anyway, so uh you take the potatoes and you uh now you have them in water in a hotel pan, and they're not turning to crap, they're not turning anything because they're in water, and it's getting the last, it's getting the starch off the outside, and it's getting the last of the dirt off and sinking to the bottom. Then your next hotel pan, bat, bat, bap, bap, bap, cut them right into it and you get going that way. Otherwise, it gets messy and things get everywhere, and it's a pain in the butt. That's the best way to do it.
+
+[56:22] So I would go with the one that's meant to be mounted uh vertically. If you cannot mount it for some reason, like you don't have the space, I still use that style, but you have to develop a certain uh there's a certain skill to using that thing uh when it's not mounted because it's a pain in the butt. You it it involves like holding the handle and then holding the base in such a way that you don't crip yourself and jerking forward and back at the same time and pounding the potatoes out. And I've gotten so used to it that it doesn't really slow me down to not have it mounted, but you know, I'm hoping to mount it in my new my new joint. I haven't mounted it yet.
+
+[56:58] Still, it's still in the drawer, but I love it. I love cutting French fries, and I love french fries. You know what's not of all the things, biscuits and whatnot, French fries might be the weirdest thing that you don't like. You know? That's true.
+
+[57:09] Uh I already answered Paul's question on which curious cook one to buy, right? Yep. All right. Let's see whether I well, actually, I'm about to get kicked off the Yeah. Hey, before we close the show, I want to put an open call out for another theme song.
+
+[57:19] Oh, yeah, yeah. Think about that time. Yeah. All right. It's been a while.
+
+[57:23] Did I answer last week Rodney's question on coconut flour or not? I don't think so. Do I have time or not? Not really. Oh man.
+
+[57:32] Unless you can get to it in two minutes. Alright, I'm gonna do it in two minutes. Rodney, Rodney, here you go. This is Rodney from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. In a low carb period of my life, I purchased a bunch of coconut flour.
+
+[57:40] It's not really flour, and I'm glad you're done with your low carb period. I've been trying for a while to make crepes with it, but I've not succeeded so far. Crepe batter with 50% wheat flour and 50% coconut flour works, but anything over that fails. The coconut flour simply can't hold together, and I'm unable to even flip it without tearing the crepe. I'd like to make crapes with just a coconut flour.
+
+[57:57] The composition of the coconut flour is as follows. And then you give me the moisture 3.6, ash 3.1, fat 10.9, protein 12.1, and then the balance uh carbs. So it contains almost no gluten and almost no starch, plus it absorbs very large amounts of water. My theory is that the carbohydrator protein network cannot be formed because there's too little starch and no gluten at all. So I'm trying adding pure gluten, xanthan gum, and more eggs, not all at the same time, but to no avail.
+
+[58:20] Do you have any theories? Thanks a lot. Uh yeah, coconut flour doesn't work the same way uh normal coconut flour does coconut does. I would, if you want to cook with coconut flours, uh, there's a bunch of books available specifically for coconut flour. I don't own them, but you can check out cooking with coconut flour, a delicious low-carb gluten-free alternative to wheat, a paperback by Bruce Fife, that you can get on the Amazon.
+
+[58:39] And he's like the he's the head of like the Coconut Institute. He does everything with coconut. But I looked up a bunch of, and you look on Rob's uh Bob's Red Mill, what's it called? You know what I'm talking about. Bob's Red Mill.
+
+[58:50] Uh, he has a bunch of coconut flour recipes uh and a video on coconut flour recipe, but having looked up a bunch of them on the thing, stuff just doesn't hold together. So they recommend normally only subbing in about 20% uh to a normal recipe. If you want to go ahead and use only coconut flour, what they're fundamentally doing is making things that are eggs. It's just eggs. It's like set egg loafs, and the coconut flour is just there to make it not taste like eggs and to give it the feeling that it's made like a normal baked good.
+
+[59:15] So if you want to do crepes or crepe style thing, what I would do is this I would whip up egg whites into a meringue, fold the coconut flour into it, and then if you or and then if you need to, or maybe do this. If you want it a little bit denser, I would uh mix the egg yolks in with the coconut flour, whip the egg whites to soft peaks, stir them in quickly, and then pour them out uh and bake them like that and see if it works. Because everything that I've read relies on ridiculous amounts of eggs. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[59:54] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:33] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Bushwick Brooklyn at Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly twelve to roughly one o'clock. Sas, how you doing? Good. You like that better? Don't care.
+
+[0:50] Don't care? No. We didn't get any new submissions for songs, Jack? Jack? I know.
+
+[0:56] Jack and Joe in the in the engineering booth, both, by the way, accomplished musicians. Whoa, oh well. There it is. The call's been open. So I mean, let's put it at the top of the show here.
+
+[1:06] Maybe maybe people pay attention more. We need a new theme song. Listen, we like what we got. We want to keep all the theme songs. We want some more.
+
+[1:13] Yeah, I mean, so what what were you what were you thinking? I was thinking maybe like a so we have like cocktail jazz, like that, you know, the Vicious Vicious vodka kind of re redo, right? The Ficious Fishes vodka. That's you know from the cocktail jazz kind of, you know, theory of operation, like Amos Millburn, that kind of stuff. And then, you know, we have uh kind of a uh a hardcore y version, right?
+
+[1:35] Right? Yep. So so what do we what do we make? We don't have country. We don't have a twangy country theme.
+
+[1:40] We could use that. We could use maybe like uh a hip hop beat theme. Oh hell yeah. Right? Oh yeah.
+
+[1:45] Yeah. Oh, oh hell yes. Oh yeah. But it had to be good hip hop. I know.
+
+[1:49] Either good hip hop or like dumb in a really good way. Right. Like uh Lonely Island, good dumb, you know what I mean? Or like or like actually good dumb. Or actually good.
+
+[1:59] Which is so hard, man. It's so hard to get hip hop that's like most hip hop's in between, you know what I mean? It's t it's tough. What about like a club a club theme song? Mean like uh like like what era?
+
+[2:10] Like uh like house, like eighties house. Yeah? Or like or like nineties like like nineties ass and stuff like James Brown is dead, like who's that? That was LA style. Remember LA style?
+
+[2:21] I don't. James Brown is dead. We could do something like that. But the uh problem with them is that they came out with that song when James Brown was still alive. What we really need is like a Hall and Oates type theme.
+
+[2:33] Oh stino, that would be amazing. I you know, Stas at any given moment, Stas and I might just break into a Holland Oat song at any given any given second, it might happen. You know what I mean? Maybe instead of playing break songs, you guys can just sing Holland Oates songs on the break. All right, it's a that's not allowed, right?
+
+[2:51] With your Well, I don't know. It's also a little known fact that I kind of uh I ha I have singing to rets in that I uh kind of involuntarily insert curse words into the middle of songs as I sing them. Mostly the C word. No, I never use in songs? Yeah I use the F bomb in songs.
+
+[3:10] You're a d you're just you almost just cursed. It was close. Anyway, it's uh it's a bad habit. I'm trying to trying to break it. Uh but you know, that's that's uh that's what it is.
+
+[3:22] But if someone's gonna do country, like uh I mean personally, Stas doesn't like country. You know why, Jack and Joe? Why? Because uh because she doesn't like stories. No, it's just a swear to God, Stas, am I lying about that?
+
+[3:39] It's only since I started working with you. Because you taught like you'll play he'll play a country song. The same country song over and over, and he'll be like, Can you believe that he left his wife or his dog? And I mean, why would he do that? And same, same breakdown.
+
+[3:54] He analyzes these songs. Same songs. First of all, like is that not true? I think some of these songs merit attention. They merit deep reading.
+
+[4:05] Merits attention. What? That's not true. That's not true. I hope someone's writing a story theme song for us right now.
+
+[4:12] I hope so too. Look, and you know what? You know, Stas didn't grow up watching TV, so like, you know, we're good. Oh, yeah? How do you not like a story song if you grew up watching Gilligan's Island?
+
+[4:22] Gilligan's Island. Look, here look, okay, so analyze it. So this is not country. Yes, because it's like the same analyzation every single time. Analysis, not even a word.
+
+[4:31] Not even a word. Analysis every single time. Not even a word. How can I trust anything you say if you bust out non-words on me? You know?
+
+[4:41] But like like s certain injustices, Jack and Joe, like they they hit me, so I have to mention them every time. So not country, but TV themed songs. You familiar with the Gilligan's Island theme song? Oh, of course. Yeah.
+
+[4:52] You're familiar with the first season of Gilligan's Island? Um probably. I used to watch a lot of reruns as a child of Gilligan's Island. Right, Gilligan was like one of my best friends growing up. I watched that stuff constantly.
+
+[5:03] Yeah, I bought a Gilligan hat because I liked him so much. Nice, nice. But anyway, so the first season was in black and white, right? And their song, which we all know, you know, at the end, The Millionaire and His Wife, the movie star, the Professor and Mary Ann, you know, here on Gilligan's Isle, right? Right?
+
+[5:20] We all know this. The original season it was uh was Gilligan, the Skipper Two, The Millionaire, and his wife, the movie star, and the rest. And the rest and the rest? The rest? There's only two of them.
+
+[5:29] Two people. Yeah, yeah, like the time it takes you to say the professor and Mary Ann, you could have just said, you know, and the rest, it's like the same thing. They changed it. They changed it, but I mean, I don't know. It just seems like crappy.
+
+[5:46] Everyone knows Marianne's the hot one. So why didn't she get on it? You know what I mean? Anyways. I like story songs.
+
+[5:52] I like to think about the stories and songs and why people made particular choices. You know? I like Merle Haggard. Um, how do we get on this? It's all because of the theme song.
+
+[6:02] Alright, okay. So, uh calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128 P.S. Someone, I'm gonna I'm not gonna go into the full rant because I you know what, uh, my my veins will purst uh burst. I was up uh uh last night uh quite late writing.
+
+[6:18] So uh Mike uh uh F Stradi uh what Mike, you got a name I can't I can't you know I can't pronounce names, Mike. Mike Fratiadis. That's kind of a nice name. Estradiadis. I hope I got that right.
+
+[6:32] Uh says, hey Dave, I was wondering about MSG. Is it safe? What's with all the gloomy posts about it? Mike, Mike, how do you do this to me? How do you make me go back and listen to old shows?
+
+[6:43] No, it starts. That's that's an absurd heritage what I say and look for MSG specific shows. Um then it's not a Mary you rant. It's not really. Okay, I'm not gonna go into the full rant, Mike.
+
+[6:55] Let me just say it tell you this. I'll give you a couple brief bullet points to use against people uh who talk about MSG. Uh most arguments against MSG either rely on a number of really turdbasket studies about um the actual purported effects on people, and then there's a lot of hoo ha hocum bad science about um excitatory uh neurotoxins uh because if you it turns out if you inject a lot you know msg into your brain it's not a good idea don't inject anything into your brain by the way uh but you know uh there's a bunch of research that neonatal primates can get brain damage if you give them large amounts of msg um you know without anything else and it's because uh you know um it can cross the blood brain barrier in primates but not in in in humans in fact your body produces msg your body produces msg uh not msg but it's because it's not monosodium but it produces um uh it produces glutamic acid in your in your head it's used as a as a uh um neurotransmitter it's then converted to glutamine and transported back across your blood brain barrier to be extremed so you're a net producer of it uh there's no credible decent evidence uh that it's uh bad for you um you don't consume enough of it for it to cause your blood levels to spike in any way unless you were to eat it pure and a large amount of it uh and the only decent studies done are uh double blind uh control studies where the actual MSG was administered in gel caps uh that couldn't possibly be detected by taste and all of those show that there's uh no problem and yet despite all this Nastasha continues to believe that she it has some sort of reaction to it. True or false does nope I just don't eat it anymore. What kind of a what kind of a coarse crap is that trying to get out of uh of of saying you're I just don't need it.
+
+[8:50] I eat it in your snacks. We don't use MSG in the snacks for consumption. We use it in our tests. Oh you only use it in tests. No brains.
+
+[9:01] No brains. Stas, no brains. No, we use it like I use uh MSG. Piper when he was with us, uh brought a lot of MSG. We we did it to test snacks.
+
+[9:10] Because what you do is when you're testing snacks out, you want to test how much kind of umami punch you need to add to the snacks in order to get kind of the flavor level where you want. And then the the hard part is is that to sell snacks to people, because people are irrational about this, you have to have them be MSG free. So then you have to go back and you have to punch that umami the same amount without using MSG. So typically, if you don't want it to taste like um uh combu or dashi, you uh you add things like uh yeast extracts or you know other broken down uh protein uh products. Anyways.
+
+[9:46] So there you have it, Mike. My non rant version of uh MSG. But I I'm sure that Jack uh can find when I went off on it before. Oh, yeah, that was like the unplugged. Uh well, you mean because I was so loud you had to like Yeah, last time you were really getting in.
+
+[10:00] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, so I think you can't you can't do the same thing. But this is what I want to go off on. Someone has to explain this to me. Are you guys shoppers uh at Subway, the uh the store that sells uh submarine sandwiches with that bread with that that's really bad.
+
+[10:12] Yeah, but do you go? My kids I haven't been in years. I told you my kids love it, right? Because they get to customize their sandwich. I told you that.
+
+[10:18] They tell you their new, their new craziness, the new thing. Oh, sriracha. Oh, they have sriracha? No, I didn't know that. I mean, everyone's got sriracha.
+
+[10:25] You know, there's a sriracha, there's a sriracha uh documentary, but I haven't seen it yet because you have to buy it. So I have to buy it, and look, it's like a half-inch documentary on a sriracha, and they interview the guy, and he's like, Everybody loves my product. I can't help it. If people stop loving my product, maybe I'll stop making it. But everybody loves it.
+
+[10:41] But he doesn't have that accent. Great story. Yeah, it is. It's a good story, right? Uh and uh one of the uh PAs gets his eye sprayed with Sriracha and in the outtakes, which is hilarious.
+
+[10:44] Uh but anyway, no, not a sriracha. So here's what happens. I guarantee you'cause I know how ideation stuff happens in these corporations, because you know, we've done it a couple of times for people, so they're like, they're like, listen, guys, this is like this is the subway, the the boardroom or whatever. They're sitting around the ideation room. They're like, hey, hey guys, listen.
+
+[11:07] Uh we want to sell pizza, but really we're a sandwich company, right? So we don't really have the, you know, we don't really have the wherewithal to sell pizza to people, right? Because we're a sandwich shop, yeah? So we have to like show, we have to demonstrate something's wrong with a regular pizza or some point of difference so that people will buy our subway style pizzas instead of a real pizza that they could get across the street, right? Right?
+
+[11:29] Okay, so guys, come on. Uh, what's wrong with pizzas? Wait, what do you got? Hey, Larry, what what do you got? Uh I don't know, man.
+
+[11:36] Too greasy. Yeah, it's a good one. Too greasy, too greasy. Hey, half, half. What do you got?
+
+[11:40] Pizzas are too three-dimensional, boss. They're too three-dimensional. That's it. We're gonna make a flat pizza. So swear to swear to God, Subway has a new product called flat pizza because they perceived that the problem with pizzas is that they're too three-dimensional and need to be flattened out.
+
+[12:00] What kind of dope were those dudes smoking when they came up with that idea? Who thinks that a problem with pizza is that it's too freaking flat? And by the way, the image that they have on their freaking advertisements is like a deep dish freaking thing. It's the least flat pizza. You know, they have no mechanism to actually make a flat pizza.
+
+[12:19] They can't make like a cracker crust. They can't do what is this fire bake style. F what does that even mean? What does that mean? It has no meaning for me.
+
+[12:32] Flat pizza. And it doesn't trip off the tongue. It's the worst word for a product. And people, they're millions of dollars involved in this decision. Like, like many dozens, hundreds of people had to had look what kind of ogre runs that company such that no one underneath was like, boss, this idea sucks the royal root.
+
+[12:55] This makes no freaking sense, boss. No one checked them on that. It's Ilios, though, basically. I don't even know what's an Ilios. Oh, you don't know what that is?
+
+[13:02] The frozen flat pizzas? But what do you mean flat? Pizzas are by their nature flat. There's like it was like, I'm not like, oh, oh, uh, you know what? I'm so sick of these kind of like three-dimensional globe-shaped puzzle pizzas that I've been getting recently at the local pizzeria.
+
+[13:20] The thing about flat pizza is that it's the same amount of syllables as flat pizza. It doesn't save you any time. The name is bad. Yeah, but you know what? They're like, hey, boss, we can't trademark flat pizza.
+
+[13:32] Because it's just the word flat and the word pizza, and everybody already knows pizza is flat. Well, we can trademark flat pizza. This is genius. The more I think about it. But you know what?
+
+[13:43] How is it that people make millions of dollars doing this? Like, how is this how is this like how how is this possible? I don't re I don't understand it. Someone explained to me an actual valid marketing scheme behind this. Like, I I like, as uh was it with Barnum said that no one uh no one uh lost money uh underestimating the stupidity of the American public?
+
+[14:04] Is that what that Barnum? I don't agree with that. I agree that we're a good uh natured people and that we can be uh reasoned with prove him wrong. Don't buy a flat pizza. Maybe maybe it tastes delicious.
+
+[14:16] In which case, I don't know. But uh Jack doesn't think Jack doesn't like their product, so he doesn't think it tastes delicious. Yeah, I like their cookies. Oh, you like their cookies? Why the cookies?
+
+[14:26] I don't know. You have the option to get like chips or a cookie with your sandwich, and I I've enjoyed those cookies. Yeah? They're kind of like uh gooey. Yeah?
+
+[14:35] Yeah. You never had you never had a Subway cookie sauce? You ever had a subway sandwich? Mm-hmm. Yeah?
+
+[14:40] Yeah. Yeah. I had I had one literally the other day because uh my kids are like, we're gonna go to Subway, Dad. I'm like, uh great. Okay.
+
+[14:48] Uh Timothy Helmuth uh writes in uh uh regarding apricots. Hello, Dave Nastasha et al. I've been drawing a lot of delicious sun-dried apricots lately, the really sour ones, so presumably the Blenheims, right? Because those are the ones you get that are sour. Uh, and got to thinking they'd make a great flavor for a soda.
+
+[15:03] They probably would. Any tips on how to extract the flavor of the apricots, ideally without using alcohol. I hope to share the finished product with some teetotalers. I'd love to hear your thoughts, practical or otherwise. Thanks, Timothy.
+
+[15:14] Okay, listen. Uh so the the main question obviously is do you have a centrifuge, right? So let's just assume you don't have a centrifuge. You're gonna want to go to modernistpantry.com, modernistpantry.com, and get yourself some uh pectanex ultra spl if you don't already have it. And you because what we're gonna do is we're going to break down the pectin in the apricot.
+
+[15:37] If you don't, it's gonna be uh like a nightmare. Also, apricots take a long time to rehydrate. I think you remember there was a caller who called in before because they were doing prunes and apricots in in a bag and the apricots wouldn't hydrate and the prunes would. It takes a while. And my experience has been making alcoholic products with apricots in a centrifuge that I literally have to blend it, spin it, and then blend it again and spin it again to get like the full flavor of the apricot out just because it's so resistant sometimes to rehydration.
+
+[16:05] So what I would do is I would mix uh the apricots like um like uh maybe start with like four to one in water, so like 100 to 400. You might have to go a little more. You might have to go 100 apricots, 500 water. Uh get warm water, right? It could even be it can be make it warm.
+
+[16:23] I take that back, make it warm. Uh, you know, like uh body temp or thereabouts. Add some enzyme, uh add like more than I would normally add. Add like four grams per liter of pectinex ultra SPL and blend the hell out of it. So what you're doing here is that the pectinx is going to start breaking down the uh internal uh, you know, the the the actual structure of the apricot and allow you to extract more of the flavor.
+
+[16:48] It's also going to break down some of the soluble pectin. You don't want to cook it beforehand because then it makes it more resistant. My feeling is I don't have improved it, but I think it makes it more resistant to the uh pectinx. So you're gonna be breaking down the products. Then you're gonna want to strain that, right, through through like a like a fine strainer.
+
+[17:03] Don't go sheen, don't go um uh what's it what's what the word I'm looking for? Yeah, coffee filter on it yet, because it's just gonna be frustrating. Then re blend the pulp that's left with um pectinex again and uh and some more water and let it sit for a while to really break down and blend it again, let it break down, strain it out, then put that sucker through a coffee filter, and it should uh you should be able to get a product that's clear enough to make uh a soda out of. If not, you could probably let it settle overnight. Once you've added the pectin X and strained it out, you should be able to let it settle overnight uh and then rack uh the stuff uh off the top.
+
+[17:43] But I mean, I know I've done it with center fusions and it's delicious, but it's just your yields aren't very high on those apricots uh unless you do unless you do that second re-wetting, which which I call remouillage after the French stock technique of rewetting the bones. Yeah? Rewriting the bones. Should we take a break? Sure.
+
+[18:03] Take a commercial break, come right back with cooking issues. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years. So it's a feta complet for us to support Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[18:42] And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com. Hey guys. We on? Yeah.
+
+[18:58] Hey guys, what what's Steve Jenkins? He sounds like some voiceover actor. That's because he was a voiceover actor. Come on. I'm serious.
+
+[19:06] For real. For real. He spent some time doing voiceover work. Maybe I don't know. I'll have to look up his like his credits.
+
+[19:11] Maybe you heard him somewhere. Or maybe it's just like that voice is like, you know, the man's got a golden voice. Golden. Does he do a cheese show for you guys? We profiled him on Evolutionaries, which is that really awesome thing we do where we do like radio documentaries on people's lives and tell their stories.
+
+[19:26] He was episode number one, so I recommend that. I remember that time, and in fact, he used to get really, really angry, really angry, whenever someone in the media would point out that New York City mean like virulently angry when people in the media would point out that cheesemongers in uh New York were bringing in illegal cheeses because he didn't want the tap to stop flowing. You know what I mean? So he was nervous about it and he was like, Can't can't you just shut up and like let me bring in the cheese, you know what I'm saying? That was in the old days.
+
+[20:10] So he doesn't do that anymore. He's too uh too big, been too uh too out it or what I can't speak to that. Uh I don't know. Yeah, yeah. But apparently everything was fake back before him.
+
+[20:20] Like even when they were selling things, they called Canabare or whatever. It wasn't actually that some Right. Well, you know, look that that I mean it's hard for it's hard for people to remember unless they unless they you know think back to it. So I first started shopping for with you know at Fairway for his cheese stuff in uh I don't know, like the early nineties or mid n mid nineties, I guess, when they moved the fairway uh when they first created the uptown fairway over in Harlem, where my studio was at the time. And uh yeah, it was like a revelation 'cause I you know you've been shopping at places that you thought like had decent cheeses for years, like Zaybars and um, you know, those kind of joints, and then uh they they really they really upped the game.
+
+[20:59] You know, it's like people uh I get people forget it was kind of um a groundbreaking place to to buy cheese. I didn't live down near uh, you know, the downtown cheese shop, so my expo my early exposure to that that kind of level of cheese stuff was uptown at the uh at the fairway. So, yeah, kudos. But he's not like the voice is not quite, it's not Casey Caseum, it's like it's a mix like where is it? It's like in the voiceover world.
+
+[21:25] I gotta figure out where it is. Anyway. Uh and you're gonna look up his uh his credits. Yeah, I'll see if I can find I can dig it. We'll see.
+
+[21:32] Yeah. All right. Uh Paul writes in regarding benzuit. So we're on preservatives and uh and other stuff today, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[21:41] Sodium benzoit. Uh it's a good word, isn't it? I would like to hear Alec Baldwin say benzoit. I bet he'd be awesome at it. Uh hi all.
+
+[21:48] I've just been listening to episode 149. Yes, I'm a few weeks behind. You were answering a question about stabilizing fruit juices, uh, and I think I understood that Piper uses benzoate. Piper. I think that Piper uses benzoate to prevent microbial growth.
+
+[22:01] I don't recommend doing this because a few years ago it was shown that benzoit can convert to benzene over time. Benzene nasty, by the way, in case you guys don't remember your chemistry. Uh can convert to benzene over time, especially in acidic environments, and especially in the presence of vitamin C. I think Piper was aware of that. I don't know how much benzoid he used in this, whatever.
+
+[22:20] Uh, I know this because I was working at the time at a company that produces food supplements, including a berry extract. And due to regulatory changes, we had to change the preservative that we were using. I was researching alternatives and came across this issue. If my memory serves me correctly, I'm sure it does. The major soft drink manufacturers removed benzoit from their products when this problem was identified.
+
+[22:40] I did some accelerated tests incubating at warm temperatures and found that benzene did in fact form when we added benzoit to the product, the berry product they were making. Uh in the end, we chose sorbate, uh which uh uh chose sorbate, which also avoided the problem that a small proportion of people can taste benzoit. I recommend that benzuid not be used in fruit juice applications, or if it is used, that you send samples away for testing so you can determine if benzene does form over the duration that you keep your products. Keep up the great work, Paul. Thanks.
+
+[23:10] I love that kind of follow-up. So that's good information. People can take, you know, it's good stuff. Um we got a Sam writes in, hey Stas. He says, hey Nastasha, because that's what you should say.
+
+[23:23] Uh thanks for answering my questions on the radio show. I now have a request. Dave uh is an undoubted ninja of kitchen ergonomics. I don't know about that. Uh, and layout.
+
+[23:33] Could you see if he will post an in-depth photo tour of his home kitchen? Thanks, Sam. It's not quite done yet, Sam. When I actually get my uh when I get my oven customized, maybe when I get my oven customized. You like my new kitchen better.
+
+[23:46] Yeah. It's really clean. Yeah, but it's like it's galley. Yeah. But all my equipment's new.
+
+[23:51] That's why you like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Won't be new for long.
+
+[23:55] I'm sure I'll ruin it. Alright, so Sam, when once I get it done, uh I'll do that. We're getting so I'm still still changing it. Um not quite. It's not quite photo ready yet.
+
+[24:05] Uh Brian writes in from San Diego about Koji, which has been uh the topic that I've been remiss in uh getting the information on we've had a lot about. Hey cooking issues crew, long time listener. I don't have a question, but was listening to your show and also wondering about how to make uh aspergillus. I can never pronounce it uh like orizia, you know, the right, the rice based one, the one that they use for Koji, aspergillus spores to make koji. Uh in case the Mama Fu uh Fuku uh whoa, really?
+
+[24:28] I can't say Mamafuku now. In case the Momofuku people don't get back to you, Dave, I found a couple of resources on the web, which you may or may not already know about. It seems publicly available information on this topic is scarce. Uh one is uh um uh Taylor Taylor made uh aka.org uh growing koji for home brewing sake. Uh and the other one is of course well known the Nordicfoodlab.org, their blog uh and their thing Koji history and process.
+
+[24:53] And the Nordic Food Lab, for all of you that don't know, is a great resource. Like, you know, they they do a great job. They they document everything they do, and they're very open source about information, they don't hide information, and they do a lot of work with uh Koji and they publish it. So I actually went to the uh tab you sent me and it it's uh it's it's good. And of course, uh Shirtleaf, who, you know, as we anyone who's heard me say knows that I learned uh you know most of what I know about tofu from uh shirtleaf, even though he uh you know basically called me a jerk for asking whether I could use edamame to make uh tofu.
+
+[25:25] He was like, Why would you do that? Are you you you're evil? He thinks I'm an evil well, in the one phone conversation you had with me, he basically he intimated that he wouldn't want to uh have dinner with me and that he uh thought I was a bad human being. I mean, he didn't come out and say it like that, but that's just a vibe I got over the phone. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:42] He's like, why is this Eastern son of a whatever? He doesn't say he doesn't talk that way. He's like all peace and love and whatever. Uh but anyway, uh his website, WWF.soyinfocenter.com uh books forward slash one five four history of koji um is there. But I looked up uh an interesting article um because the the issue is this look, everyone knows you can make koji you can buy the you can buy the you know the koji can the seeds for it and and do it.
+
+[26:09] The question we had a while back was how do you know if it's safe? And the problem is is that uh some strains of uh aspergillus, right? Um like flavis and whatnot can produce uh aflatoxin. And aflatoxin, you know, for those of you that you know pay attention to this sort of thing, you want to stay away from because even minute quantities, it's one of those no known safe kind of exposure things because minute quantities can be like viciously carcinogenic. And so this is why we screen things like peanuts, which can grow aflatoxin for um you know, for for the growth of it and and whatnot.
+
+[26:42] So the the question is, why uh don't people get poisoned all the time from um things that are done made with koji because they're all done with different uh aspargilla strains? And how is it that you can select for the safe ones uh in i in an in a non in a in a in a either home, wild or pre you know industrial setting, how do you choose to and make sure that you only get the ones that don't produce aflatoxin? So there's a and a lot of people have taken done studies and shown that the um that aflatoxin uh is not present in products commercially that are produced with uh koji molds, right? So thing, you know, soy's and misos and things like that. And then a couple of ones have shown that that miso uh miso itself is not hospitable for uh the production of aflatoxin, but it's aged for a long time.
+
+[27:37] So the question you want to know is how can I guarantee that the mold that I'm growing right now on my koji is safe to use right now, not necessarily in an aged product, uh not necessarily in in a secondary product, but how do I guarantee that it's safe in all points of its uh existence? And it's an interesting problem. And as of 2001, which is the last article uh that I have on it, uh they hadn't really a hundred percent solved it, but the the most interesting article I saw on it was called uh aflatoxin genes uh and the uh aflatoxinogenic potential. That's a good word, right? Aflot I can't say I gotta try that twice.
+
+[28:14] Afflatoxidogen, whatever, of Koji molds by um oh my god, I can't read my writing on it, what the uh person's name was. Uh broke, it was a it was the last name, B R Oh no, Vanderbroke, Vanderbrooke, P. Vanderbroke, uh, 2001. Uh, and it was interesting. So, what they said was is look, they analyzed a bunch of um strains of aspergillus that they found in various products that have been produced, some uh kind of artisanal wild fermentation types and some commercial types.
+
+[28:46] They found in uh that it in that they found some uh strains of normal asperg aspargillus oaks. I can't pronounce that. I can't I don't know why it's got a mental block on it, I can't do it. Uh that actually had the genes encoded in them to uh some of the genes encoded in them to that to produce aflatoxin, but did not in fact produce aflatoxin, which is difficult if you want to make a rapid assay to make sure that there's no aflatoxin in it, right? Uh they also found um certain uh aspergillus flavus uh uh molds in there that that were aflatoxin producing strains, but they didn't find any aflatoxin.
+
+[29:23] Now, the Nordic uh food lab has a couple of points on this where they say, look at uh, you know, the the um aflatoxin when it's produced, those strains that produce that tend to inhibit yeast growth. And so people that are doing things like brewing sake, where you have a lot of alcohol involved, over time uh the only aspergillus strains that don't produce aflatoxin are selected out, and so that's how the safety goes. But we're not talking about that because we're not talking about maintaining a culture for you know generations. We're talking about uh a wild thing and how to prove it's safe. So here's what's interesting.
+
+[29:55] These guys said, look, we we we made a bunch of koji and uh it didn't produce uh aflatoxin, right? So they said, okay, uh, I'm gonna take a uh a strain of aspergillus that's known to produce aflatoxin, like one that we bought specifically to produce aflatoxin. And they because they their their thing was, well, maybe this because like uh koji fermentation is solid state fermentation under very particular circumstances for fairly short periods of time. So they said, okay, look it. We're gonna put the uh we're gonna we're gonna put this known aflatoxin generator into uh typical koji production, and lo and behold, it produced m like zero almost like hyper trace amounts of aflatoxin.
+
+[30:38] So they're like, hey, that's pretty safe. So they're like, well, maybe it's something about the the actual substrate that they're we're growing it on that's stopping it produced. So instead of running it for 24 hours, they ran it for like a week or something like this. And after a week of incubation or a week and a half, then there were measurable and meaningful amounts of aflatoxin present. So uh their conclusion, which I think is interesting, is that uh m these strains that can produce aflatoxin take longer to start producing the aflatoxin in the solid state fermentation that we do in Koji, uh take longer to produce the aflatoxin than typically they would have to produce it w when you're making the koji.
+
+[31:15] So if you're gonna use a wild fermentation of Koji, then I wouldn't let that aspect of the fermentation go on longer than you know, like you know, the day or so it it takes to do it. Uh and I would read that article because it made for interesting reading, but that's the closest I could get for an answer on how can you guarantee without having uh you know uh a a microbiology lab present, how can you guarantee the safety of any given wild uh koju that you're making? Do you think that's a good final answer on that? I think that's great. You don't care.
+
+[31:46] Whatever. Uh you you know what you know you know that you need that feedback. And you know what you guys you know what you guys don't get? You don't get the look on Stas's face. It's like it's like uh someday I'll be able to describe it.
+
+[31:58] She's like, Yeah, great. Uh I know you need the feedback. Yeah, so it was great. Kyle Kleeburg, I like that name Kleeberg. Kleberg, because I like Stan Freeberg.
+
+[32:08] Have you ever heard of Stan Freeberg? No. No comedian? No. From the 50s.
+
+[32:11] He was an advertising guy, like uh kind of I guess pre-mad maybe pre-madmen, yeah, pre-madmen era advertising guy who uh he did a bunch of radio shows. Anyway. For those of you who are uh history of advertising buffs and like uh 50s comedians, Stan Freeberg's the man. Anyway, uh Kyle Kleeburg says, Hey there, I've got a question for the cooking issues. Our restaurant recently acquired 100 pounds, 100 pounds of high quality spot prawns, and it just so spot prawns.
+
+[32:39] You like spot prawns? You ever have that? It's West Coast, but it's northern. You never hang out up there, right? Like BC and all that stuff.
+
+[32:45] Uh they're supposedly good. Like I, you know, we don't get them here. You know, like at least I don't get them here. Uh, of high quality spot prawns, and as it just so happens about two-thirds of them were carrying eggs. Well, discussing a plan, my chef in his infinite wisdom took a ninth pan full of roe and tossed it into the vita prep with a healthy dose of neutral oil to make shrimp oil.
+
+[33:07] As you can imagine, we ended up with about six cups of shrimp aioli. Yes, because it has eggs. They will emulsify the hell out of stuff. Anyways, uh, so I came to you guys with questions hoping you can help me write this. First, would the eggs of prawns be called roe or coral?
+
+[33:24] And secondly, is there a way to purposely break this emotion? Break this emotion. Take these broken wings and learn to fly again. Yeah, that learn to live so free. Yeah, the deal is that.
+
+[33:39] No. Is that learn to flag and learn to live so free? Really? I think so. No, no, that's different.
+
+[33:44] It's different. Jack will know. Jack or Joe will know. Anyway. And second, is there a way to purposely break this emulsion and turn it back to an oil of some sort while maintaining the flavor of the raw eggs?
+
+[33:54] If this is a lost cause, I still think uh I still have some reserve to make the compound butter, which I hope will be a better plan. However, if I've learned a thing from listening to cooking issues, it's the things are not always as simple as they seem. Thanks, Kyle Kleberg, uh the police in uh I what's ID I wondered. Washington, I understand. Maybe Idaho.
+
+[34:14] Really? Like on the border? Really? I don't know. Uh okay, so listen, first of all, when you say carrying eggs, I'm presuming you meaning on the outside on their swimmerettes.
+
+[34:23] Uh so here's the deal. So decapod uh you know, crustaceans, the way that they the way that they do their the way that they do their business. First of all, interesting, spot prawns. Uh if you want a little uh thing about uh spot prawns, and I got some of this information from it. W W dot organicocean.com.
+
+[34:39] It's brought pawn, and I can't remember because it's been a long, long time since I've done my uh I me I I I went through a kick where I read a lot of lobster biology stuff because I was thinking about writing an article for the New York Times and they they they wanted me to prove that uh whether or not lobsters could feel pain. I was like, I can't I can't do that. That's not possible. Anyway, uh so I can't remember whether lobsters do this, but uh spa prawns are cool because uh they're big and delicious, apparently, but they uh they change sex. Then they become females, then they do their eggs, and then and that this when they're changing their sex, they're called trannies.
+
+[35:13] How awesome is that? That's what it says according to the website. Anyway, um so anyway, in decapod crustaceans, when the females are gonna lay the eggs. Typically, when you have uh a lobster and you have what's called the coral. Do you like that?
+
+[35:24] The red stuff when it's cooked out? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh when you have the coral as opposed to the tamale, which is like kind of the guts. Do you like the tamale?
+
+[35:31] But you like the coral. Okay. Uh good to know. Uh so I don't really like uh okay, you uh I'll lay it out on you. I'm not a huge fan of the tamale, like I can eat a little bit of it, but I don't want to pound that stuff.
+
+[35:43] You know what I mean? You know? No. Anyways, so uh the coral is the eggs on the inside of the lobster, right? No one, at least not on this coast, eats the and a when I say when you when you say that the shrimps are carrying eggs, I think you mean on the outside of the shrimp, right?
+
+[36:00] So what happens is is uh the lobster, or in this case the shrimp, passes the egg from the inside of its body to the outside, and as it gets passed to the outside, that's when it gets fertilized, and then it glues it to the underside of its body. So when you get a lobster out, a female lobster out of the uh out of the water, you look at the bottom of, yeah, no, lobsters stay females. They stay freaking females. They don't do this weird tranny stuff. Anyways, uh what am I thinking?
+
+[36:24] So they turn it over and they're called buried, right? They're not like buried like in the ground, like not like gravad locks lobster, but like buried like knots berry farm. And uh, because they put the eggs all on the underside of their body. Now, lobster folk, when they get uh buried lobsters, are supposed to uh throw them back, like notch the tail and throw them back because they know that's a producing female, right? And you want to leave the producing females in the water so that they make more lobsters because that's your bread and butter, right?
+
+[36:55] You know? So you so you never get buried, you get females, but you never get ones that are buried because they throw them back. So um so, anyways, so I wouldn't I would not call it coral because as far as I know, coral is only when it's on the inside of the animal. And since these have made it to the outside and are fertilized, right, presumably they I don't know whether the fertilization makes them change uh flavor or texture or what. I have no idea because I uh you know I don't have uh any uh experience with it.
+
+[37:24] But uh interesting, uh, these guys at Organic Ocean said don't uh they said some spot prawns are brought in from the United States where they are caught sooner, smaller, and often buried, i.e. before spawning and with eggs attached. Uh one Asian grocer is selling live uh British Columbia spot prawns, which uh would have to have been for the United States. The BC season opens later when the prawns have grown to full size and are about to die naturally. So buyer beware.
+
+[37:52] So organic ocean believes that you uh they that you know they I I guess they lay eggs and then and then uh and then they croak, right? Because it says uh they say that while BC spot prawns are hermaphroditic, born as males, the female sex organs on their tails become more pronounced at about two years of age, at which point they refer to as transitioning prawns or trannies, uh, with the final two years of their four-year lifespan sent as females. So they do their spawning and then and then they're ready to ready to die, so you should take it afterwards. So that's just on whether to call it coral or whether they call it um roe. I would call it row or eggs.
+
+[38:27] Now, on the breaking of it, you've you have very few people who want to break uh this kind of uh egg emulsion, and uh I wasn't able to find anything offhand that would break it. The only easy thing that I thought you could you could do two things. One, you can add so much oil to it that it um that it breaks, right? Because that's one way to break a mayonnaise is to is to ext is to stop adding water and to just add enough oil, like you know, 95%, so that you actually start breaking the emulsion and you get oil coalescence. That should work, but the problem with that is you will be adding so much uh uh oil to it that you probably won't have the flavor transfer.
+
+[39:10] The other thing, and you might have already tried this, um, is you might it because you said I I don't know whether I read it, but you know, you intimated that you didn't want to heat it because you didn't want to change the flavor, right? Didn't he say that? Did he say that? Yeah. Um I would uh freeze it.
+
+[39:25] I would freeze it and then thaw it and then freeze it and then thaw it and then freeze it and you thaw. Each time you freeze thaw, you should be destabilizing um that emulsion. And hopefully, after one or two freeze uh thaw cycles, because you haven't added any stabilizers other than the stabilizers naturally present in the uh prawn eggs, hopefully uh uh it'll break, and then you'll be able to get uh, you know, and if you have a centrifuge, obviously I would freeze thaw and then try the centrifuge. But that that should work. And the and you know, I would stop it from I would not let it get exposed to oxygen while you're doing all that freestyling.
+
+[40:00] Uh, but you know, so like put it in a vac bag or in a zippy and then freeze thaw a couple times and see whether it works. But if you try it, please uh send me the answer because I want to know whether whether it worked, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh okay, Kurt writes in.
+
+[40:14] Hello, everybody. Uh I've just recently become head bartender of a restaurant in Cambridge, Massachusetts, right next to the MIT campus. The building complex that we are in hosts the Cambridge Science Festival every year. I bet you that's a pretty good science festival. Yeah.
+
+[40:27] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and has asked if we would like to be a part of it. I've been using a handful of modern techniques behind the bar, pectin X slash agar clarification, carbonation, EC infusions, uh, and the like.
+
+[40:41] I added the at the like, it wasn't in there. Uh so the chef decided I'd be the best candidate for the job. I made an off the cuff comment about how cool it would be to have a rotovap and centrifuge to play around with for this presentation. And a day later I got an email uh asking exactly what I needed for equipment. These guys have a lot of lab connections.
+
+[41:00] I've attached the email I've received with some questions about equipment. Also, also, I'll be giving a presentation to 75 to 100 people, which I've not done before, and was wondering if you might have any general advice on giving demos to an audience like that. I clearly plan on ignoring that gem of advice that Thomas Keller gave you last week where he called me an idiot. Uh thanks, Kurt. Okay.
+
+[41:21] Uh and uh the attached questions are uh regarding the centrifugion rotovap, uh I have a few ideas on who to ask, but a few questions for you. What size centrifuge? Do you need tubes? What size rotovap? I assume you need a vacuum for the rotovap.
+
+[41:35] And what about the cleanliness of a rotovap? Um typically the flasks are used are clean in a glass cleaner and autoclay, but is this okay for food? Uh especially if they've previously been used with dangerous chemicals, um, etc. etc. Okay, so look it.
+
+[41:48] So a lot depends. Uh let's start with the centrifuge. Let's start with the presentation, right? When you're gonna do a technique, uh when you're gonna do a demo for a lot of people with modern techniques, people like to see rotovaps run, right? Stas, we've done that a bunch of times.
+
+[42:02] That's very true. Yeah, they like to see it run. Here's the issue. If you aren't really good at running a rotovap, uh you it's gonna take you a while to set the sucker up, and it's gonna take you when you're first setting up a roadovap, assuming you haven't played with one before, uh, and you put food products in, it's gonna boil over. I'm just telling you that right now.
+
+[42:23] It's gonna boil over. And uh that's a nightmare. And let me tell you from experience, you don't want to boil over in front of a big audience because it makes you feel really stupid, right? Right? The other thing that happens is when you're talking during a demo, here's what people don't like.
+
+[42:37] They don't like to sit and have you sit there and stare at the machine for like half an hour while it's distilling, right? So you're gonna have to bring someone with you that after you, you know, wave your hands over it and do the magical touches on it and everything like that and get the sucker running, right? And during that time when you get the sucker running, you can't be talking or doing anything because you're gonna have to make sure the sucker doesn't boil over on you unless, you know, unless you don't want to do a good job. Right. There's always that, right?
+
+[43:00] But uh then you don't want to sit there staring at it, so someone's someone's gotta run it. The other problem with a rotor app is is that rotov apps uh take a long time to produce appreciable amounts of product. So what I would do is choose a product in a roadov app that you can make that uh you can give relatively small tastes of, like really small, like less like quarter ounce, like little skim shot coats, like really strong flavored stuff that you can give small amounts of. I would stay away and and you're gonna want to make them beforehand. So even though things like fresh herbs are the best things to do in roto vap, or one of the best things to do in a roadovap, you don't want to do that because then you can't make that sucker the night before, which brings me to my next point.
+
+[43:39] Never demonstrate a rotor app that you haven't fired up before and run for at least a couple of hours. You're gonna need this rotov app well in advance so that you can A make the product that you're gonna hand out at the event, and B get the hang of using it, right? You're also gonna need a vacuum pump, obviously. You're gonna want as good a vacuum pump as you want. The chem folks don't need a particularly good vacuum pump because they're not worried about getting good recovery of flavor, right?
+
+[44:06] Ideally, what you would like to have is a bunch of liquid nitrogen and a uh and a cold finger, right? Because otherwise you're gonna need a chiller. Because chem folks, they're like, well, just chill it with tap water. Just chill it with tap water. No, that's crap.
+
+[44:19] That's crap flavor. You just that's that's not that's not right. You can't just chill your condenser with uh tap water and expect to get a decent flavor out of it because then first of all, you're gonna need to run your bath at 60 degrees Celsius, right? 140. So like why bother?
+
+[44:33] Then you're you're dealing with we're dealing with 60, then you're dealing with 40 and change as the temperature of your uh of the actual product in there that's being distilled, and you're dealing with 20 degrees, give or take, is the temperature of the tap water that you're running off of circulating through your condenser, and you have a very small temperature difference between your product like and your uh and and and your uh what's it called? Your your chiller. I like to have like very large temperature differences, right? And I like to keep my stuff as cold as possible. So like when I'm running a condenser, a regular condenser, I run it, I'm doing alcohol, which is illegal, but hey, at like minus twenty degrees Celsius, um, and you need a chiller for that.
+
+[45:13] And then and then when you when you bring a chiller into the into the fact, you can run a rotor vap with a water bath and a vacuum pump off of a single socket. You can't reliably run a rotovap with uh a chiller off of one socket. I've seen them blow in demos all the time. All the time. Here's another thing.
+
+[45:33] People are gonna so so I if you can't get the liquid nitrogen, get it. If not, get a chiller or find something that you can do hotter and it's not gonna hurt it like chocolate, you know, like like cocoa nibs or something like that, but they they they boil over. Another thing get the biggest freaking distillation flask that you can get, right? They now everyone's always gonna be like, here's a liter flask, and they're gonna give you one with the tiny little freaking uh what's what's the thing I'm looking for? Um holding up tiny, what's this what's this word, Stas?
+
+[46:00] Neck. Neck, tiny neck. Uh and and the problem is it's hard to load stuff in and out of it, and they tend to boil over more violently with the thing when they boil over. So you want a big as a flask as possible. Never fill it more than a quarterful, especially when you're learning, otherwise you're gonna have boilover problems, right?
+
+[46:16] Get the biggest around, it's called vapor duct, which is how they the actual vapor gets transferred into the condenser area. The biggest one uh you can. They chem folks always mess up, they always give you the small thing. Why? Because they're very rarely doing rotary evaporation in quantity, they're doing it for uh more like for analysis, and so it's not they don't they don't deal usually in the in like kind of this large style quantities that we're dealing with.
+
+[46:39] Um, are some of the recommendations. They also like there's inherent problems with most roto vaps in that the stuff that's being distilled down isn't getting chilled properly, so you're gonna want to chill the receiver uh so that you don't redistill off of it too many times. Um on centrifuges, you know, i it if if they're gonna let you use one, uh yeah, get new buckets. I mean, uh I almost exclusively use three-liter bench top centrifuges, uh swinging bucket centrifuges, and they're great for cocktails, great, along with pectanex. Um, but you know, if you if they have a 500mm fixed liter rotor that you know has uh you know uh uh those the tubes in it and a handle f you know, you just do a couple more spins in those.
+
+[47:19] They usually do higher G's anyway, and some of those things, you know, I wouldn't use it for everyday restaurant service, but for a demo, you can get a couple extra spins out of it. I once uh in Columbia did a demo for a hundred more than a hundred people using uh that tiny two hundred dollar centrifuge we got on Amazon. I just had to sit there for four hours spinning, you know, tiny tube after tiny tube. So you can get uh an any of that uh you know that you that you need. Um oh so for size on the rotovap, the size itself of the rotovap's not so important.
+
+[47:47] You want a three liter uh flask uh and probably like a like a one liter receiver. Uh if you can get a uh um an LN um a cold finger condenser for it uh do that. On the cleaning I'd be a little careful. I don't know what kind of chem presumably the people who have it know what kind of chemicals have been put into it. If you can get new glassware get new glassware.
+
+[48:09] Um there there can be some persistent nasties that get into uh into stuff especially well anyway but I mean they they try to make them nice 'cause they're glass and they're you know non absorptive things like Teflon and what whatnot but you know be be cautious. The other thing is is uh try to get um certain brands of rotary evaporator are horrible. Uh you know I use uh Bukey Hideolf is good. Uh you want to get glassware that's coated in uh plastic. It's called plast glass.
+
+[48:36] And when you look at it you can see that it's got a coating on it because it's a little bit wavy. Uh and uh if it doesn't have that you need to wear safety goggles at all times because uh if it's really clear looking glass it means it hasn't been coated and uh those could implode at any minute and send shards of glass flying around uh into your into your eyes. Which uh doesn't make uh for a good demo. Turns out it makes for a for a bad demo. Uh but whenever you're doing technology, be sure to have your products done beforehand because I've had anything and everything go wrong on stage, right?
+
+[49:10] And so luckily, because everybody knows that I'm kind of uh discombobulated and disorganized anyway, I can just kind of smile and shake my head and it all seems to go away, at least most of the time, right, Stas? True. True. But that only works if you have the product beforehand to make sure that uh no one's leaving empty-handed. I'm also uh whenever anyone's uh demonstrating new techniques, and for any of you out there, uh, and uh hopefully you all do, you know, use uh some of these um new techniques, when you go demonstrate them.
+
+[49:43] Uh I really believe that you should hand out tastes of things whenever possible from what you're doing. And uh the reason is it's really easy to get a piece of fancy equipment and put it up on stage and have people be like, wow, that's really that's cool, that's awesome. Uh but what the the real challenge is is showing people that they're not just like weird science tricks or gimmicks, that they actually can produce delicious products. And so you know it's uh I I've always been a fan of uh handing people things to taste at the demos to prove that what you're showing them on stage isn't just some BS that you're doing for a gimmick. And that's that cooking issues.
+
+[50:29] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radium Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[50:53] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:46] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Aberna's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from around 12 to around one o'clock. Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, a little bit late to the studio today, a victim, I think, of the New York City subway system. But call your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[1:06] And uh don't worry. Who's the program brought to who's doing it today? It's uh S. Wallace Edwards and Son. Oh, yeah!
+
+[1:34] S. Wallace Edwards, home of one of my favorite American country hams. Now, uh, you know, Sam Edwards, who is, I don't know, like billionth generation uh ham carrying guy. He uh, you know, he he and I have this one disagreement, and every time I mention him on the air, and every time I see him in person, I say this. He markets his uh one of his excellent um, you know, uh at least one year old age kind of you know, not not semi ambient cured uh hams, meaning that uh they're refrigerated um during the curing, the actual curing process so that they don't spoil, but then are allowed to age ambiently, you know, for upwards of a month, uh, which I think are you know delicious.
+
+[2:12] Uh and and he makes them actually with Heritage uh foods, uh uh what's the word I'm looking for? Heritage Breed Pork. And they're delicious, but he markets those as Surianos, Surrey being the county in Virginia where they are, you know, uh, you know, kind of the classic, you know, one of the classic places for American country hams. By the way, all American country hams, almost all American country hams, are fundamentally derived from the culture of uh uh Tywater, Virginia, because uh it started there and then, you know, rem remember like everything or everything from there over, like through Kentucky was V Virginia back in the day. And most of these, you know, a lot of these families have curing roots that date back to um at or prior to the uh American Revolution.
+
+[2:55] So I mean it's there's a long history of it there. I don't know where that could start with. So anyway, so he's calling it Suriano as like Serrano and uh and Surrey because, you know, well over a decade ago, gosh, it's gotta be we well over a decade ago, you know, uh, you know, he decided that uh the kind of hams that he was producing in America uh were not receiving their just due and thought they were most like uh some of the ham mountain hams. Serrano just means mountain ham, you know, uh in uh in Spain, and so kind of you know was kind of joining the idea of this American ham with kind of this quality of mountain ham that he had had in in Spain. And uh, you know, my feeling has always been uh American ham is an American ham, sell it as an American ham, and Sam Edwards uh, you know, as much as I love and respect uh his products and he you know he's a good guy, just call it American.
+
+[3:48] What do you think? Anyone? Anyone? No, not anyone cares. Only me.
+
+[3:52] Uh but anyways, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about what were we talking about? We were talking about uh oh, Steve Jenkins last week from Fairway, who is our sponsor last week, and uh we'd had a bit uh a little discussion uh about like what voiceover actor uh he sounded like, and so the other John Stewart writes in uh regarding Steve Jenkins from Fairway and who does he sound like to me, he sounds like Alec Baldwin, who does lots of voiceover work, which is weird because you mentioned Alec Baldwin only minutes later, uh, and it didn't make and I did and didn't make the connection. So perhaps you disagree. I threw audio of the two into this link, pretty similar, but perhaps not who Dave was thinking of.
+
+[4:30] And then uh there's a lake, which maybe we can play later with playing uh, you know, Steve Jenkins side by side with Alec Baldwin, or maybe we can just call that up somehow. And you know what, uh John, you're dead on, man. Those that's exactly what it is. It's Alec Baldwin, but it's kind of one of those things. Voiceovers freak me out a little bit.
+
+[4:46] Like uh, you know, I was watching this stuff and uh, you know, commercial commercials come on because I have a TV now and the kids watch it. I watch it. Come on, come on, please. Uh but the um commercials come on, I'm like, oh my god, is that Magnum P.I. is Tom Selleck doing voiceover work?
+
+[4:58] I mean, it's not like it's there's you know it and Morgan Freeman, by the way. I don't know if any of you guys watch the Olympics, Morgan Freeman literally like I think he was like sitting around on call waiting for people to win medals because he would congratulate them on the medal that they won like 10 seconds after, or did he record every permutation of every American winning every medal? He's like, Congratulations on your bronze. You know what? Anyway, whatever.
+
+[5:19] Voiceovers. Amazing. So, uh, John, you're totally right. Alec Baldwin is uh the call. Alec Baldwin, of course, whose voice is amazing.
+
+[5:27] Uh, but uh John also has a question. I've been bagging all of my low temp food using your Ziploc method for years. The food saver uh vacuum never looked like it had much advantage over the Ziploc technique and doesn't really seem to pull a hard vacuum. Therefore, it never seemed useful for bagging where you want to uh uh use a vacuum to pull your marinade into a product, for example. But I just ran across the Thrifty Vac, uh, which you can see on uh the YouTube.
+
+[5:50] It's a thrifty vac, I think one word and vac is VAC. Thrifty is spelled thrifty as in someone who is thrifty. Uh, and it's cheap. It's on the Amazon.com, uh, and you can look at it's like 22 bucks. Uh what fundamentally, uh, well, I'll finish the question.
+
+[6:05] And it looks like this might be able to pull a harder vacuum uh than uh he's saying, I guess presumably than a food saver. Do you think this looks useful as a uh poor person's vacuum chamber, or is it not likely to pull a hard enough vacuum to be any better than the Ziploc method, thanks the other John Stewart. Yeah, okay. So I took a look at this uh device, and for those of you out there uh who you know haven't seen it or you know aren't on the internets right now, though, although how you listen to us if you're not on the internets, um, the what it is is is it's a one-way valve and a little kind of like a like a boxy piece of plastic and a one-way valve that you put onto uh a large bag, you know, Ziploc or other, uh, and it punctures the bag and then it comes with a little little uh you know like uh sucking device, almost like a larger version of a vacuvan uh pulling thing. And you stick a a ziploc inside of the other bag that's f almost seals.
+
+[7:00] So it's the same as the as the the technique, the dun the water technique, by the way, which is what I use at home because I don't have a vacuum machine at home, is I seal almost entirely seal a vacuum uh ziploc bag. Ziploc, by the way, when you buy a Ziploc bag, first of all, like GLAD bags work, I'll admit, but like I always buy the brand name bags because off brands suck. Never get the ones that have two layers of plastic, get the single layer. Get also the freezer uh ones because they're much better gas barriers than the regular ones, and never get the ones with the slidey doodles. I do not trust the sealing capability of the sliding doodles.
+
+[7:31] Get the ones that have the old school just zipper, you know, the just the you not a zipper, but like just you know the the seal without the slide doodle, right? So you seal it almost all the way up uh and then you just leave the very corner unsealed. You put your finger in it, lift it by that corner, it now forms a diamond, and you immerse it under the water. As you immerse underwater slowly, you kind of you know force the air out from around it, and and presumably your product is surrounded by some form of liquid on the inside of the bag, oil, sauce, whatever. And uh and the air, once excluded, never comes back in because the water, the pressure of the water excludes it, and then at right as the tip of the bag goes underneath, you seal it with your with your uh you pinch it sealed, and it's done.
+
+[8:11] And this is the way I do almost everything. It makes a fantastic seal. It doesn't create a vacuum, but it does exclude air, which is 99% of what we want to do when we're doing low temperature cooking, unless you're doing a vacuum effect. Okay. So what this thing does is it allows you to put a ziploc inside of uh another bag with a one-way valve.
+
+[8:31] Uh, but in other in other ways, it's similar. You leave a little corner of the ziploc un unpressed, you pull the vacuum, you push the uh seal shut while it's inside of another bag, and then you pull it out and it's sealed. Uh it's not really that kind of a vacuum pump that they're using, that piston vacuum pump is never gonna pull a uh a decent um vacuum. Anyway, so we have a caller. I'm gonna get the caller and then I come back and talk more about uh the the the this vacuum machine and kind of what I think it's good for and what what it doesn't do.
+
+[8:58] Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Hello, this is Martin from Vienna calling. Oh, hey, how you doing? Um I'm fine, thank you. How are you?
+
+[9:07] Doing well, I love Vienna. I've only been to your town for a couple of days, but it seemed very nice when I was there. Uh yeah, it is. Have you been to a Wurstelstand? Uh did you dict uh the famous cheese sausage?
+
+[9:20] No. No. The only so I was there literally, I was there for uh EC, the company. I was doing work with them with uh Rapid Infusion and uh I was only there for uh I was only there for like literally like a day and a half, not even two full days. The only thing I got to do, we went to we had a uh we had a you know Schnitzel at the what what's the name of the place that's uh it's a couple blocks from the it's a couple blocks from the opera house.
+
+[9:45] It's like famous for its uh schnitzel. What the heck's the name of it? Like Oapfair something. Uh there is the Fiegelmüller where you get the huge ones. Yeah, I don't think it was that.
+
+[9:55] Or uh the other one is the Plachuta. I have to remember. But it was good, you know, with the lemon wedge and everything. I enjoyed the Viennese potato salad. I did get to visit the market, that long outdoor market that you guys have.
+
+[10:06] What's that called? This mark. Yeah, Nash Mart. That was really cool. And like there's a lot of people there selling uh because I only wanted Austrian products because why would I buy a different product when I'm in Austria, right?
+
+[10:18] So I went through there searching various different kinds of uh uh cured meats and uh cheeses and and different products and thought it was uh it was really nice, but no, I did not get to have the cheese sausage next time. Well no, I did get to have no I didn't. Yeah, yeah. I know we had a sauce. No, I did because when I showed up at lunch for the first day, I showed up and like had to go right to work from the airplane, and they were like, What do you want for lunch?
+
+[10:42] I was like, Wurst, and so they brought a bunch of one. I think one of them was cheese. It was good, but I can't recall the name because they just put it in front of me. They didn't tell me what I was eating. But there was one with cheese in it.
+
+[10:50] What's the name of the what's the name of it? Kesekreiner. Oh yeah, case Krainer. Yeah. Vaspitoid Kraina.
+
+[10:58] Yeah. What does Kriner mean? Well uh Kreiner uh it means it means a sausage coming from Krain, which is uh in Slovenia called Krantska Goda. So that's where where the the the original sausage is coming from. And then the Austrian added the cheese to it and uh made it a Kesekrainer so cheese Krainer, cheese sausage.
+
+[11:21] Well my if my memory serves me that was uh it was a good call adding the adding the case. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so what's your question? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:29] But I have a I have a question about uh uh hydrocholy is about gelatin actually uh because I'm trying to do uh kind of uh uh vodka panakota right and uh I have problems to to get it like stiff freely so and then and no of course that that uh adding alcohol to gelatin uh decreases the the stability of the gel you have in the end but uh I just when I when I when I get it lower uh and the the gelatin sets really nicely uh you cannot taste the vodka anymore so and uh my one uh my question is about how uh high can I get that uh still if you have like a ratio that uh I can still have a a set gelatin with uh with vodka. Well most um most sources that you read usually for uh and and I it's not really based in any sort of reality right they they put they put the upper it's based on kind of rules of thumb they base the upper limit for most um alcohol sensitive hydrocolloids and most of them are because remember it's not water right and the hydrocollides require water to do their work um they usually place the upper limit for normal function somewhere in the range of twenty percent somewhere in that range uh so in general when you're using and that would be like the pure pure alcohol uh range or or or the vodka like twenty percent uh pure pure but but that's but that that's like the upper limit but like the more alcohol that you add to any system right the more uh it depends on the hydrocolloid too the more hydrocolloid that you're you're gonna have to add to get the the same um result so like what give give me your give me your recipe how much uh how much vodka was in there as a percentage of the total uh there was about like uh I I took uh two two parts cream and one part uh part uh vodka so so one third was vodka which would be like one sixth a bit less though almost something like twenty percent uh uh uh alcohol I guess in the end so that should be fine well remember those cream isn't all water either right so you got you got cream which is not all water although it's not it's the it shouldn't affect it the same way but um what and and what percentage more than the normal gelatin did you use? Uh I I just like uh I I use the the the kind of sheets that I would normally use, like uh uh I don't know, uh six teats on on half a liter. No So I mean I would just I mean if you haven't tried up like and and it was too it was too soft, right? Or did it not set at all?
+
+[14:24] Yeah. Did was it with the it it was too soft because my my idea is that in the end I I put uh a liquid shell of uh of cough in it. So basically it's a reconstruction of uh of a white Russian. Uh and and uh whenever I try to get uh the liquid shell in it, uh eventually it would break uh because it's just not brittle enough. Uh so that or not not stiff enough.
+
+[14:50] Right. A couple of things you can do. You can up the gelatin concentration, right? I mean that's the first obvious thing to up the gelatin concentration. Yeah.
+
+[14:57] Uh by like I wouldn't, you know, don't do anything drastic like double it because you don't have that much alcohol in it. So I would up it, I would up it like um I would up it like maybe twenty-five percent or something like this, and see whether or not that adds enough. Were you close to getting it? Was it close to the right texture or not? Uh it it I mean it's not bad.
+
+[15:21] It is it is stiff, it is it is like uh a set gel, but it's it's just it's it's not easy to handle in in like when I try to put in the the liquid gel itself. So uh I just it it would eventually it would I I have like a failure of almost fifty percent of pieces when I cut in in cubes that would fall apart. Right. So and that uh just it's just not stiff enough. Maybe maybe just to raise uh the the gelatin would would help or then I gelatin's good that way in that erasing it doesn't so like a lot of other hydrocolloids when you raise their percentages uh you get a lot of nasty kind of textural effects and you get a lot of nasty kind of taste effects when you up them uh to the point where you get their like the functionality right, whereas gelatin is pretty friendly that way.
+
+[16:11] I mean, if it they mean once you start getting very high percentages on uh any hydrocolloid, you get a lot of flavor masking because you know a lot of the water which is delivering the like you know, some of the water b you know the water-based section of the flavor component is locked up in uh in a hydrocolloid matrix. And so you tend to get very poor flavor release. And the reason why gelatin is so good and why it's used in these is not just because its texture is awesome, but because it tends to mount melt at uh mouth temperature and um you know and thereby you know, r release and s almost get like a hundred you know, hundred percent flavor release. The only other ones that have kind of such excellent flavor release are ones that are used in kind of very in very low um quantities, like gel-an, right? But if you were going to switch to a different gelling medium for this like gel-an, the problem you're gonna run into is you have to um you have to ensure that um you you know you're gonna have to uh you're gonna have to heat it to a high temperature and then get your alcohol in before it gets down at set temperature, right?
+
+[17:12] Because the gel-an's like a snap set, but the other problem is is that at really high temperatures that you need to hydrate things like gel- and you can't get alcohol that high. Now you can get around it. I've made alcohol fluid gels all the time with both agar and with and you know, an agar might be another thing too, because you can make agar you can make agar um a lot softer if you put uh locust bean gum in it or some some a modifier like that. And you can you can get um you know, or a kapac capacaraginin L B G is the classic one that people use to do gelatin analogs, and you might be able to harden that one up more and have you know uh and it you know you'll definitely know faster because it sets a lot faster than gelatin does. And I've done plenty of agar gels at twenty percent alcohol, plenty.
+
+[17:56] Uh because I used to do, you know, as for for demos, I used to do um I used to do like fluid like alcoholic fluid gels, you know, all the time that were you know right around twenty percent. So I know that I know that that system works well, but I think the gelatin will probably work well for you if you just up the percentage slightly. And uh well, slightly like 20, 20 try twenty percent and see whether or not you get because you what you really want is you want it to be just at the failure point, right? You want it to hold itself, you want to be able to handle it, move it around and plate it, but you don't really want any more than that, right? And then that's what gelatin's so good at, it's is its seeming delicacy uh when it's you know, you know, there.
+
+[18:35] But the yeah, but then you you run into the other issues if it's breaking and and then if your kitchen's hot or whatnot, I don't know how well a control you have over the temperature in the kitchen, but you know, when gelatin gets close uh to being too soft and then it gets warm, it's like you know, you're done, you're you're done. You know, it's and you're never gonna be able to handle the product. But I think you should be able to do it by just by increasing at those levels. If you were saying that you were going to do straight vodka, I'm saying, well that's you know, problematic. But you know, I've done plenty of uh you know, up to 15% alcohol with gelatin just by upping the gelatin, even ones that have to withstand fairly uh you know rigorous you know conditions, like uh I've done carbonated alcohol uh gel regular gelatin gels up at those percentages.
+
+[19:19] Uh at least 14 because I've done you know pretty high high uh alcohol wines that way. Uh just but but by jacking the gelatin somewhat. Yeah. Uh by the way, when when I when I would like put the cream, the uh with gelatin and and and vodka and everything like still warm into uh ISI and then spray it like to make like whipped cream, would the gelatin hold the shape or or would it be uh well so I mean gelatin by the way also like with cream if you get well like anything over about 20% the cream's gonna start being in danger of breaking. Like that's kind of like the magic place of cream uh cream liquors without any sort of added protecting uh things in it.
+
+[20:04] You could protect the cream, obviously, uh, you know, with various agents to stop it from breaking, but uh including gelatin, that's what the Kemique thing is made out of. But anyway, uh gel yeah, gelatin can be used as the foaming agent in an ISI with that. However, like if you want it to hold, if you want to do like a if you want to make this recipe in an ISI and have it hold indefinitely, really dense, cre like dense, dense, dense texture. Um what percentage cream is it to the to the fluid gel? I mean to the gel?
+
+[20:34] Is it like you'd say a third? The uh full uh uh what percentage cream is it a third you said to the vodka you mean? Or yeah, no, it's like it's like three parts, three parts, uh two parts vodka mix, one part cream. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[20:50] No, two parts cream and one part vodka. Oh, yeah, okay, no problem. So what I would do is I would lower, I would lower the this should be fine. Like you you're down, you're down more like you know, fifteen percent or something like this. You should be okay just by upping the jet.
+
+[21:03] But try this, right? Yeah. Take your take the the vodka, do uh make a I think it should work at around one one one percent. Take let I'll just give you some random numbers to try. Take uh 500 mils of water, uh yeah, do 500 mils of water and then um uh 10 10 grams of don't you don't have to make the full recipe, I'm just giving you numbers that are easy to remember.
+
+[21:28] 500 grams of water, 10 uh 10 grams of agar, uh cold, obviously, hydrate the the the agar, you know, whisk it in cold, bring it up to heat, simmer it for two minutes, temper in 500 mils of uh vodka, right? Uh let it set into a uh 1% uh gel. It should be fairly firm, even at that, even at that 20%. If it's not, you can uh try it at a slightly higher agar percentage, right? Now blend it in a blender.
+
+[21:56] So now you have a vodka fluid gel. Now that's only 50% vodka, right? But instead of doing two cream to one, lean it make it a little leaner and do one to one cream with that vodka stuff in an ISI. And as long as the fluid gel worked, which I'd have to test it to make sure that it exactly at 20 that the agar works, that is going to be dense, dense, dense. So a lot of times when I'm trying to do very dense ISI foams, I do fluid gel reinforced uh cream bases, and they work they work really well.
+
+[22:24] And in fact, you can do things that would normally curdle cream, like you can do lemon juice and eventually it'll curdle, but because a lot of the lemon juice is locked up inside of a fluid gel, it doesn't break the the cream right away, and the stuff that's foamed out lasts like a long, long, long time. But the one thing I will say is that when you're putting a fluid gel into an ISI, um you you remember it's a fluid gel. So when you when you point the ISI down, it doesn't naturally run down to the bottom of the ISI and dispense. You have every time you dispense it, you have to put your finger over the uh over the dispensing um uh tip and and flick the canister down so that you're sure that you have all the fluid gel packed against the head so that when you dispense it, it's actually there. But it's a fantastic way to do uh reinforced creams.
+
+[23:10] And I like I do reinforced creams with like very high acid fruits all the time that way, and I'm pretty sure it would work with an alcohol fluid gel as well. Okay, thank you very much. No problem. Uh I am by By the way, I I won I won uh ISI uh um siphon by mentioning you really um because they had they had like this this uh thing before Christmas, they would give out like free ISI uh uh siphons. Just you have to write them why you want to use it.
+
+[23:41] And I mentioned uh because I like the ignor uh Dave Arnold's uh quick infusion tank and I would like to use it, and that's how I won my ISI. Oh beautiful. I just had another uh idea by the way. You might be able to hydrate the agar in uh in like milk or cream uh and then uh put the vodka into it and dope it, and that way you wouldn't have to have all that water, but you'd have to play around with it to make sure it would work. But I think that might also be a solution that'll stop you from having to uh add the extra water.
+
+[24:13] But give it a shot, try it. Okay. Yeah, thank you very much. Alright, have fun with the whipper. Thank you.
+
+[24:21] I will. Uh okay, now back to Stas Stasis like oh yeah, we would we'll come back with cooking issues and Nastasia Lopez. Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than four hundred days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color.
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+[25:46] The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit WWW dot Surre Farms. Oh man, you guys, you freaking guys. Although, uh, you missed uh I went on a thing about the whole Surriano thing and how I feel about it, but now I can talk about the fact that I'm a guessing, and I've never had this conversation, so I'm just guessing.
+
+[26:28] Nastash, do you hate the harmonica? No, I don't. Really? I would think you hate it because you hate things that tell stories, and it's like an inherently storytelling kind of an instrument. It like, you know, kind of it speaks from the soul.
+
+[26:39] You're like, yeah, no, I hate it. No, I don't need it though. Yeah. Yeah. So how are you doing, Stas?
+
+[26:43] Good. Yeah? Mm-hmm. And uh, Jack? Doing well.
+
+[26:46] Yeah. So, Jack, you had a question you were going to ask us, right? Yeah, we want we wanted to know your kind of thoughts on some of these new apps coming out that are catered towards um restaurant eaters. Like, for instance, there's one called No Wait, right? And you you you can you can get on a restaurant waiting line at home with the app.
+
+[27:02] I love well, I mean, I'd love I love that. Yeah? Except for the you know, my f my my the problem I I don't know how it works because I've never used it. As a as a user, I would like that. Imagine if you could just not so I live like two blocks from uh or three blocks from uh Mission Chinese, right?
+
+[27:18] Uh which is Danny Baum's restaurant. And uh, you know, they don't take the the reservations. Uh and the way it's like a billion years, but uh you know it would be no problem for me to just sit at home, you know, uh, you know, my the wife and I drinking ourselves silly and then waiting for you know them to say you've got ten minutes to to hightail it over here and I can hightail it over there. And yes, that would be a fantastic boon to someone like like me. I don't know how they operate it as a you know as an operator, you know.
+
+[27:44] I know at the bar that a lot of times when people are on a list, they don't necessarily come back, you know, and so it's um do they have some mechanism to ensure that you're gonna come back? We're interviewing them later today, so we'll find out. Yeah, I mean, so I mean it's the kind of thing that obviously is a boon to uh the to the consumer. Uh the question is, how hard is it gonna hose um how hard is it gonna hose the restaurants that use it? Or do they have some anti-hosing mechanism in the application?
+
+[28:11] I think all apps need an anti-hosing mechanism. Oh, yeah, definitely I mean so I mean just to let you know you know we we have a lot of situations at the bar where you know we we people come in we're like okay we're full because we you know we only have seats for like 32 or whatever uh and uh we say okay uh you know party of you know five or whatever it is you know we'll we'll text you when um it's free then we text them we put a reserve sign on the seat now we have five seats empty and it's not it's not just that there's five seats empty that we're not turning money around on although that does hurt me deeply the uh the real problem is is then people come in and they see the empty seats and they get pissed off that they can't get seated. You know what I mean? So it's uh it's tricky. It's a kind of a fine dance uh on how to do it.
+
+[28:59] Bigger places it's easier to deal with because they have more turnover but I wonder how it works in smaller places. Like when you only have like 30 seats, you know it's like it's it's it's hard to ride that line properly. You know what I mean? Yep totally. But um interested to hear what they say I'm interested to hear what the anti-hosing uh mechanism is.
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+[29:15] Uh yeah right what do you got going today Stas? Anything good? No? Absolutely not no absolutely not nope. Nothing you know it came in yesterday.
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+[29:25] What do you mean? We got the Sears all t-shirts in yesterday. Yes, that's great. They look although Stas couldn't uh didn't get a chance to see them she had to go run an errand before they showed up. The extra large is I'm glad because I'm nervous.
+
+[29:40] We have most of our T shirt buyers are extra large. You could you could sail a tugboat into the shirt that I picked up. Good. Do we have XXLs? Are they just XLs?
+
+[29:48] No, just XLs. Man. Dax, you know, Da, so Booker and Dax named after my kids, Booker and Dax. Dax, the small one who only wears a Luchar mask. Although he forgot it this morning on the w on walking the dog.
+
+[29:58] I think because I kicked him out of bed because my wife was gone, so like both kids had to come out with me to walk the dog this morning. And uh forgot his luchador mask for the first it's the first time I've seen him outside of the house without a luchador mask on in months. Like months. Weird, huh? Mm-hmm I wonder whether maybe he's giving up the Luchador phase.
+
+[30:18] I hope not because I haven't uh you know he hasn't had his mask yet his custom mask. How do we get into this? What were you talking about? Shirts. Oh shirts.
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+[30:26] Uh so he was like I want a Sears all shirt. I was like Dax I guarantee you we didn't order any kid sizes. Am I right? There's only smalls. I mean the price would have been a lot higher if we had kid sizes so just thinking about the company.
+
+[30:38] What? I see Stas always tries to make it seem like I'm being an ogre for no reason. First of all, people, people, people. I was never once consulted on this and I would have said, you know, yeah no we're not going to order kid sizes because it's fundamentally not something we want kids to play with. Small is not like Dax is like he's nine.
+
+[30:56] He's not like he's not like a teenager. Booker could wear a small no no Dax wants to wear it around Dax wants to wear it like a washer in the dryer. Are you now you're saying that the ones we bought are going to shrink? No like there's a way to shrink shirts on purpose right? Eh I don't know I don't do that kind of thing.
+
+[31:13] I don't I don't I don't try to buy normal shirts and then shrink them down to clubware because I don't go to clubs. Um okay no no offense no problem clubs so back to John Stewart's the other John Stewart's question. So uh for those of you that don't remember because it seemed like it was a long time ago uh the the issue is is will this new thing, this thrifty VAC uh work um to pull a real vacuum on something as opposed to just using a Ziploc? My feeling is is it's is that it's not going to suck any more uh hardcore of a vacuum than uh a vacuvan thing can suck, and that it's not it's probably useful if you want to, without having a big water bucket around to put things in a ziploc, but I don't think it's going to achieve much more than uh you can do just water dunking in a Ziploc. Um so there you have it.
+
+[31:59] But it's cheap, and so if you want to do a lot of dry bagging work of stuff in Ziploc bags, you know, maybe it would be useful. But most of the people uh I looked on Amazon, it's got a lot of very positive reviews. Uh, but uh if you actually burrow into the reviews on Amazon, almost everyone who was familiar with the uh the water dunk method of ziplocking was like, I don't really understand the advantages over a water dunk method on ziplocking. So I don't think it's gonna it's not gonna be there, it's not gonna be you know an alternative for kind of vacuum infusion, I don't think. And by the way, the uh you know, a couple of the the one of the people who did a review of it on YouTube that you sent us a link to said that um you know that it's kind of turns it into a chamber vacuum machine, and it does not turn it into a chamber vacuum machine because the minute you displace the air out of the bag, air from the outside pushes on top of the bag.
+
+[32:48] In fact, that's kind of the MO. It's using the bag to push on the bag, uh, and that that's how it's working. Chamber vacuum machine works entirely differently in that it just removes the air and there's no physical uh compression on the item uh until the air is allowed back in, right? And so that's kind of like that is the that that is how a chamber works. This works much more in the fashion that a food saver works, except for instead of using a food saver bag, they enclose this thing in an outside bag.
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+[33:16] Now, what I do think it would be really good at probably is if you wanted to make castings, like if you wanted to do or not castings out, uh I don't know what my my brain is shot today. If you want to do like fiberglass work and you wanted to do or pre-preg work with uh like fibers and stuff, you could uh you know you know, because the one of the problems of doing uh let's say you wanted to make something out of fiberglass uh and resin, right? And you want to put it over a mold, well the question is how do you get it to stick nicely to the mold? And you know, a good way to do it is using uh kind of a vac bag system where you put the entire you you put the the impregnated uh resin impregnated fiberglass, carbon fiber, Kevlar, whatever in the hell you're using, over your mold, you put it into a vacuum machine, suck it, uh suck it. I think this might be a good way to do that if you're but but that doesn't come up very often in the kitchen, does it?
+
+[34:02] I mean I used to remember remember that remember the Mokumagani thing I did back in the day with the I used vacuum bag molding for that. Um but um that was where you know we took different colors of fish, layered them up with uh transglutaminase, uh, and then par froze them on a mold uh in like a wavy shape and then sliced it on uh on the um Hobart model uh what is it, 3000 or 2000 uh meat slicer so that it looked like wood grained fish. That was a fun trick. Haven't done that in a while. You know why?
+
+[34:30] Because they gave me that freaking meat slicer and I let stupidly let left it at the FCI because it felt it had been there so long that they kind of like stupid. I should have taken that sucker with me. Yeah, right. Yeah, okay, like that would work. Uh anyway, uh so.
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+[34:45] Didn't we have something we're gonna talk about, Sas? We had something we're gonna talk about. I forget. Anyway, uh Joshua writes in from Switzerland regarding ice cream. Hi, Dave and Nastasha, greetings from Switzerland.
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+[34:55] I'm a big fan of your show, and Stas is a big fan of Switzerland, as it turns out, right? She loves it a Swiss. She loves it a Swiss. Um, but he doesn't say which Switzerland he's from. Like Switzerland.
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+[35:07] I only like the Italian parts, so. Really? Mm-hmm. Like, but how f how like cleanly divided are the different parts of Switzerland? Um they all hang out in like the big cities, they all hang out, right?
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+[35:18] So you get everyone in the big cities, right? The Italians don't really they don't move from area, yeah. No. Oh, the German and French do move everywhere. They move everywhere.
+
+[35:25] So like Geneva, there's no Italian people in Geneva? Not a lot. Not that I saw. None. Not one.
+
+[35:33] Yeah. Not one Italian speaker. They're like they're Italians. They don't leave their mother's house. Wow.
+
+[35:41] Wow. All right. Uh we'll talk about that later on. Uh Greens for Switzerland. I'm a big fan of your show.
+
+[35:46] Lately I've been obsessed with ice cream. I own an ice cream maker which is able to cool to negative 35 Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit. I I didn't do the calculation, but uh just for you for your edification, the one I always remember, minus 20 uh Celsius is minus four Fahrenheit. So you're well into the minus range.
+
+[36:05] Uh well, well into the minus range, probably around minus 20 uh Fahrenheit, something pretty hardcore. Uh anyway. A couple of days ago I made a whiskey ice cream on a recipe by Heston Blumenthal, which by the way, I looked up uh the Blumenthal recipe. So that what what's about to happen isn't a uh like whatever is about to happen, the the results um that Joshua had that he's not gonna be happy with, he's gonna describe it in a minute, aren't due to uh high alcohol content in the whiskey ice cream because what I saw on the internets uh of Heston Blumenthal, he uh burns the whiskey first to get rid of a a lot of the alcohol. So we're not dealing with the softness uh based on a high alcohol content.
+
+[36:40] Let's just get that out. I don't want anyone thinking that while I'm reading this question because that's not what's going on, right? Were you thinking that, Stas? No. Alright.
+
+[36:47] Uh I let the ice cream maker uh okay, so um on a recipe with Heston Blumenthal and sage ice cream with egg, sugar, and milk custard. I let the ice cream maker pre-cool to approximately negative 25 Celsius and then poured the ice cream base and let it churn. And here's the thing. Here's what should stick in your head. I let it churn for approximately 30 minutes.
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+[37:06] After that, I store the ice cream overnight in a freezer. A taste test the next morning left me unsatisfied. The ice cream was tasty, but it seemed that two large ice crystals had formed because it had an unpleasant mouthfeel and didn't feel smooth. Therefore, my questions How does the churning time influence the development of ice crystals? Or is there a minimum time which you would suggest?
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+[37:27] Do you see any flaws in my ice cream making? And can you recommend any good literature on ice cream making and theoretical base? I've read the chapter on ice cream in the book, The Kitchen as a Laboratory, but need more. Thank you in advance for your help, Joshua's. By the way, the word laboratory brings up I have so Travis Huggett, who uh did the photography on my cocktail book, uh, and and I we were in the subway the other day, and uh when I say other day, I mean yesterday, and we had like seriously the idea that could make us like like the new like Angetty slash uh uh what's his name, Wegman, the Weimaraner thing.
+
+[37:59] But since we're never gonna do it, I'm gonna give this idea out there to somebody. Uh now you're gonna think this is really stupid, but the more you think about it, right? The more you think about it, the better it gets. Ready? The the this could be the hottest wall and desk calendar of 2015.
+
+[38:18] Labs in labs. We're talking labrador retrievers in laboratory situations with lab coats on. Labs in labs. Now you're like, that's dumb, right? But look at this.
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+[38:33] I think it's dumb, even though I came up with the idea, and yet, if I saw that thing on Amazon for 15 bucks, I would own it right now. I would buy it. I would pre-order that sucker right the hell now. Labs in labs. Come on.
+
+[38:46] Somebody do it. Here's what I want. Travis and I, we need some cut. That's all. Like all I want, or like maybe even a mention, a cut.
+
+[38:52] You know, when when they come with the barrels of money and drop them off at your house for having done this labs in lab calendar, we like when you're swimming through money, just remember that as you're bailing the boat out so that you don't drown in your own money. Just put one of those buckets of money, you know, our way. That's all I'm saying, right? That's all that's all I that's all I need. Labs and labs.
+
+[39:11] Uh so uh here's the deal. Uh ice cream, the longer, okay. Ice crystals, uh the faster you freeze something, the smaller the ice crystals are, right? And the reason is is because you uh with rapid freezing, you get many s nucleation sites, right? So ice crystals don't ice crystals l prefer to form on other ice crystals.
+
+[39:34] In other words, ice crystals prefer to grow rather than than to form entirely new ice crystals, right? It's more energetically favored. So the slower something freezes, the larger the ice crystals are. The more rapidly something freezes, the more different nucleation sites you get, and the smaller the ice crystals are because they don't have time to grow into larger uh ice crystals. So there's a direct relationship between the size of the ice crystals that are formed in in a freezing process and the rate of freezing.
+
+[40:04] Now, um there are other factors as well. Uh, you know, uh the composition of it, but but for a given ice cream composition, the crystal size is directly related to uh the freeze time. Now here's another thing. Uh typically, when you're freezing the ice cream, remember you're never freezing ice cream until it's a total solid. A good amount of the product uh uh of the ice cream is still in a a liquid state, right?
+
+[40:29] And um and how much of it is liquid is dependent on what the freezing point of the ice cream is, and that's dependent on things like the sugar content, uh, and you know, and the fat content, things like this. Well, not really the fat content, but the sugar content, right? So you know you're you're looking at there's a lot of liquid water in there. So when you draw out of a machine, you've been churning for 30 minutes, you draw out of the machine, there's still a lot of liquid in it. You already have kind of large seed uh crystals in there because of the long freezing time, 30 minutes.
+
+[40:57] You then put it in the freezer to harden overnight, and what happens? Those crystals get bigger and bigger overnight as it gets colder and colder. So let's say you have a draw temperature. So forget what the freezing temperature of the of the uh forget what the the minimum possible condenser temperature is in your ice cream uh maker, right? Forget it, because that's not what's important.
+
+[41:15] What's important is what the temperature, how fast it can put the energy into uh the ice cream, right? So a commercial ice cream machine, even if it's only uh, you know, if it's running at a higher temperature than yours, has enough has enough ability to chill, enough chilling power that it can freeze the ice cream to its draw temperature of somewhere around, I don't know, 20 Fahrenheit, let's say, or 18, what is it between 15 and 20? I forget exactly Fahrenheit, the draw temperature, it can do that in uh 10 minutes or less, right? So the uh LB100, which a lot of people use at Taylor's, depending on the batch size that you put in, you can get down to like a seven minute batch time, right? Anything below like a seven to ten minute freeze time, the the fact that your crystals are smaller, don't doesn't make a damn bit of difference because you can't taste ice crystals that uh like your tongue can't distinguish the texture of ice crystals that are any smaller than that.
+
+[42:08] So while some people say the texture of liquid nitrogen ice cream is superior to the texture of ice cream that's frozen in a regular machine, because it theoretically has smaller uh you know crystals, that's horse hockey because your tongue can't distinguish anything. But you can very easily tell the difference between an ice cream that took 30 minutes to freeze and an ice cream that only took seven uh or eight minutes to freeze. Now, the flip side is is if you were to take um so so what to do. Um, one thing is is look at the power requirements on the on the back of uh your your machine, and you can kind of get an idea of how much, and you can't really, because things get much less efficient as they get colder in terms of how much uh they can effectively apply to the ice cream when you're when you're making it. But almost all machines are underpowered to actually freeze the stuff in in a relatively quick fashion.
+
+[42:57] One thing you can do, obviously start with extremely cold mix. Second thing you can do is use less mix. Now, the problem with using less mix is that a lot of machines, if you underfill the machine, it has too much overrun, i.e., too much air gets whipped into it. So this is something you're gonna have to uh address or uh or worry about. The third thing is is if you are gonna have a freeze time of let's say 20 to 30 minutes, then I would recommend only doing it right before you're about to serve it and not try to harden it.
+
+[43:29] Since since um machines that have like a 20 to 30 minute freeze time, the texture of the ice cream is usually pretty good right out of the machine, but once hardened, then it all starts going to hell in a handbasket uh pretty quickly. Um I don't know, does that seem to answer that that part of that question? Uh as regards references, the best online reference, and it and it really gets you a long way before you buy any books, is um go to uh Google this dairy education series at the University, and I can never know how it's actually pronounced this town. Uh Guelph, you think it's Gel for Guelph. Gelf Guelph, yeah, Canadian, who knows.
+
+[44:06] But the the professor who wrote that is H. Douglas Goff. And it's a fantastic uh resource, and I use it as my quick and ready resource and have for uh years. Uh and it's a fantastic website with a lot of information. Now, as for books, um the classic, the classic uh in uh ice cream book is called uh, you know, makes sense, uh ice cream.
+
+[44:30] That's what it's called. Uh and it came out in the 60s. It was released by uh company called AVI Press. AVI Press in the 60s and 70s put out kind of the best food technology book series. It was so awesome.
+
+[44:43] I used to go to the New York Public Library and read them constantly, and zero I would literally Xerox them. Uh, you know, this is like you know, 20 years ago. I'll go Xerox them so I could have them because I couldn't uh afford them. Now they've been superseded somewhat, and AVI is no longer out of business. But uh they uh that that book was called Ice Cream by R Buckle, and Rbuckle was it.
+
+[45:02] Like the in like in everyone was like Arbuckle ice cream. In fact, they didn't even call it ice cream anymore, they just called it our buckle, and everyone knew that they were talking about the ice cream book. No relation to Fatty Arbuckle, the uh silent film star who may or may not have been wrongly accused of doing that, whatever. I don't want to get into it. But the um Arbuckle Ice Cream.
+
+[45:21] So uh you familiar with uh Fatty Arbuckle and Silent Film Star stuff? Yeah, I think he did it. Really? Do you think he did it? Um I need to reread it.
+
+[45:29] I don't remember what I said what I thought. My last impression was I think he was falsely accused. This isn't so off topic. Uh so uh so here's uh what happened. When it got bought, uh they did uh uh a redo of it, right, with a new author, uh Robert T.
+
+[45:44] Marshall and W. S. R. Buckle, right? That's the fifth edition from 2000, right?
+
+[45:50] Now already they've they've changed the authorship on it. And then in 2003, they took uh they took our buckle off the book entirely, and then it was Robert Marshall Douglas Goff, right? You know, good guy, and uh Richard uh Hartell, who's not at Guelph like Goff is, he's at Mad Town. He's the ice cream scientist at at uh University of Wisconsin Mad in Madison. Uh anyways, so then our buckle came off.
+
+[46:15] I got really pissed. I don't really like it when something's like a standard like that, and then they rewrite it, and then they just like they take the original author off. They should have called it our buckle's ice cream with the new authors on it, right? Uh and uh and then now they released it uh in 2013. They just released it as ice cream by H.
+
+[46:31] Douglas Goff and uh Richard Hartell. So whatever. I don't appreciate the loss of the lineage of like such a a well-known book, but there you have it. That's the ice cream book to get. The other one is called uh by C.
+
+[46:41] Clark, it's called The Science of Ice Cream. Uh, and it's uh 2004 from the Royal Society of Chemistry. Uh little bits of of it is available on Google Books and on Amazon, and so I looked through it, and it also looks uh pretty good. Cover, there's two covers I saw. Cover looked like crap, it was like scooped out colored lard.
+
+[46:58] Like, why do people do that when they're shooting ice cream? Just shoot real ice cream and shoot it fast. You know, do you like lard looking ice cream for fake you hate that, right? Mm-hmm. Like I know it, like you know, you're selling you science of ice cream, and then you have l the other one was just a series of tubes.
+
+[47:11] It's a series of tubes. I didn't really I didn't get that, but I like the tube cover better. Anyway, but that's another alternative. Alright. So uh that's good on that, on on that.
+
+[47:19] Yeah. Yeah, four minutes. Four minutes? Oh my god. Yeah.
+
+[47:23] Well, this listen. So Sam wrote in about uh homemade pasta sheets for uh lasagna, and I have my thoughts on it, but I'm gonna try to wait. Uh we we we were gonna try to get uh Mark Ladner on because you know he makes he they make the pasta for that billion layer lasagna, right? It's not a billion layers. How many layers is it?
+
+[47:40] Hundred. Hundred. So I wanted to get uh kind of his feelings um on it, uh especially on like whole egg versus egg yolk and various things in pasta, and also his feelings on gluten-free pasta and bite and stuff like that, because he knows a lot, so maybe we can get them next week. So uh so Sam, I'm gonna put off your question on that uh till next week. Uh and let's go up to oh and I you know, by the way, I'm sorry, uh Twitter folks, uh it doesn't look like I'm gonna get a chance to any Twitter questions, but I'm gonna tabulate them all.
+
+[48:08] I'll try to answer some of them on Twitter, and then ones I can't answer on Twitter I'll postpone until next week. Jeff Mays writes in uh just curious if you or Dave were ever able to figure out how best to cook candle nuts so that they're safe to eat. I have a pressure cooker and a circulator, and not sure if there's a foolproof way to parcook so I can keep them in the house without having to worry about them being poisonous. I called uh in a while ago about the question, but I haven't heard the answer yet. Okay, I've only been able to find the stupid stuff on not stupid, whatever, but the stuff on Wikipedia that say that it contains saponin and four ball, and everyone just quotes that as a block text out of that.
+
+[48:39] Uh, but I haven't found the references on uh relative heat stability, just that they're just that it's inactivated by by cooking, not necessarily in a pressure cooker. Typically, these guys are roasting it. So uh you brought it back to my attention. I haven't answered it, and I'm gonna come back and do some more research on it. But you have a second question, which I can hit a little harder.
+
+[48:57] Uh, for low temperature fried chicken, if you pre-cook at 64 degrees white meat uh for 45 minutes, the chicken chill, then refrigerate. What is the best fry temperature to ensure that I don't overcook the chicken but still get a delicious crispy crust? I Brian using the ad hoc, you know, Tech Keller's book recipe, then low temp cook, chill, then refrigerate, then remove and fry. I'm using flour, buttermilk, uh, uh I'm using a flour, buttermilk, flour procedure for frying, which is what I use, but I put egg in the buttermilk. Anyway, when I last did this at 365 uh 360 degrees in grapeseed oil, that's Fahrenheit, uh, the white meat was not as juicy as when I didn't pre-cook low temp and did all the frying at 325.
+
+[49:33] Or is there a different temp I should use for low temperature? I really want to do the chicken quickly so that I can have it fresh out of the fryer for guests shortly after they arrive and don't have to spend a dinner party in front of a fry station. Thanks again for the show every week. Jeff Mays. Okay, here's a couple of questions for you, or a couple of issues.
+
+[49:47] So typically uh what what may be going on is that you're cooking it brined uh and then allowing it to uh to refrigerate and sit. And I'm wondering if it's firming up a little bit, the way that most salted meats really firm up when they're being cooked, and whether or not when you say it's not as juicy, is it there's a couple of things it could be. Is it that it's not as juicy, but it's still clearly not overcooked? Does it taste firmer, i.e. more cured?
+
+[50:16] In which case, if you're going to pre-cook it a long time before, maybe omit the brining or do a uh a lighter brine so it doesn't taste as as firm or cured. That's I'm not sure. I'd have to test it. I don't have this problem, I'll tell you why. I don't refrigerate my uh my chicken.
+
+[50:35] When I'm doing low temp chicken, I do it uh fairly soon before the meat is going to be served. I remove it from the ziplocks uh where it's brine. I cook it in the brine, frankly, and then I pull it out and I pull it out hot. And the reason I pull it out hot is so that the skin flashes off and gets tacky so that I get good adhesion of my battery right. Now I know there's a whole pies and thighs, Roberta's uh theory of you know not drying the chicken at all before you batter it, but whatever, I don't do that.
+
+[51:04] And so and then I fry it uh in the limit of food safety time. So it ne I never chill it down and I never re and I fry it at 360, right? So you know that's kind of how I do it. And what my feeling is is that you're probably uh you're probably getting a uh a lack of the feeling you getting out of a fresh cooked chicken because it was cooked, brined and cooked uh and allowed to sit in the salt uh you know in its own salt for so long and it's pulling on that kind of texture. But I'm not sure.
+
+[51:38] I have to maybe I could put a call into a couple of people and uh see what I'm working on, or maybe do a side-by-side test. But I would try to do it fresh, uh, i.e. you could still do it so your dinner guests don't get hosed, right? You could do it a couple hours before they show up. But try doing it kind of alimute because 360 is what you should uh do.
+
+[51:54] I wouldn't do it from cold though, by the way. Uh that might be another problem you're having. You might be trying to warm up the center of the chicken by doing a 360-degree cook. If you try to do that, you're gonna overcook the hell out of the outside of the chicken and and you'll also burn the burn the crust. The optimum thing is to have the chicken be, you know, somewhere, you know, like above room temperature, at or above room temperature, so that when you fry it, you're literally just focused on the crust and everything else is secondary.
+
+[52:22] Here's here's something you might want to do to uh to to try that as a problem is uh pull your stuff if you're gonna leave it in the bag and refrigerate it, try this. Pull it out of the fridge if it if it's not the salt problem, pull it out of the fridge and circ it for like you know, 25 minutes at like uh 50 Celsius, and then uh pull it out hot, uh let it flash off for a little bit, or even 55 Celsius, let and let it heat up, flash it off for a couple of minutes, then bread it, then fry it, and see whether that solves your problem. Maybe you're just going from too cold and spending too long in the fryer. Anyway, those are my thoughts. We got Peter Kim who shows up late or as last week, never.
+
+[53:02] Whoa. From the actually, what's interesting is he actually was here in Robertas, but he was at the bar. But that makes sense. That makes sense. Peter Kim, what do you got for us?
+
+[53:11] Yo, he is president, uh, what are you, president, director, emperor, Emperor of the Museum of Galactic Emperor of the Museum of Food and Drink? Exactly. Nice. All right, what do you got for us? Well, I just wanted to give a shout out to the Golden Cadillac, uh, to Don Lee, the Asian man with the best hair in New York City.
+
+[53:29] Well, and you know, there's a t-shirt of all the various incarnations of uh Don Lee's hair, and I think his hair deserves the actual legal technical term of incarnation. I believe it has agency. Absolutely, absolutely has a soul. Yeah. And uh I've got the calendar of his hair.
+
+[53:43] And uh also to uh cocktail superstar John Darragon. The two of them uh put together a great event for Mofad uh a couple weeks ago at Golden Cadillac, and uh yeah, good turnout. Dave, you were there in a mask and a cape. The blue diamond, yeah. Yeah, syringes of jello shots into people's mouths.
+
+[54:01] Don Lee's jello shots, by the way. They were Don Lee's yellow shots. I take no credit, yeah. I take no blame. I was merely the bar back, the server, the waitron.
+
+[54:10] Yeah, Patrick was there too, Patrick Martins. And uh what was his quote? Give me give give you Patrick Martin's quote as he self-injected himself with with uh Pina Calada. What was the quote? Give it to me.
+
+[54:19] I blocked it from my own. Oh, come on, don't wait. Dave, I don't I I don't remember anything. What is it? No, he's like calling him out.
+
+[54:26] It's not calling him out, it was awesome. It's not calling him out. Hey, how about those flat pizzas that they've got at Subway? Uh don't get me started. Don't get me started.
+
+[54:34] Don't get me started. We don't have time to get me started. I have a question about MSG though. Oh, geez. Yeah, Peter, Peter.
+
+[54:40] So why don't you instead why don't you spend the the in you know the few minutes we have left? And that reminded me for now I have called the personality going through my head. But uh for those of you that remember Living Color uh Cultural Personality song? Do you remember that? Yeah.
+
+[54:52] Good song. Anyway, so what do we got going to the museum soon? Well, actually, so on the Golden Catholic thing, we're gonna make that a monthly thing, and uh so keep an eye out for that. And then we've got a debate coming up on GMOs on I think Sunday, April 27 at the Food Book Fair. And we've got a big MoFed fundraiser coming up in May, and the Stasi and I are putting it together.
+
+[55:10] It's gonna be amazing. We've got some great chefs lined up for that. Uh May 7 is our tentative date, but we'll be sending out a state of date as soon as we get the details. Are we doing any particular what particular aspect of GMOs are we gonna tackle? Man, I mean, I think one of the first questions is is just gonna be about defining GMOs and what those are and how they differ from conventionally grown crops, if at all.
+
+[55:31] Why is that really contentious? The actual definition? Yeah, it is. The definition is contentious? Yeah.
+
+[55:36] All right. Well, I will uh am I gonna moderate this one? Uh yeah. I we'll have you moderate it. Why is the definition oh, I mean how you define it legally in terms of hey hey Stas.
+
+[55:46] Stas is worried because she's got something else to do. One second. No, it's true, it's fine. I won't discuss what it is. But they the point is is that the the the the I guess the definition of what you actually count as a GMO modified food is quite important as it relates to whether or not you could sell it in Whole Foods in five years when they come in.
+
+[56:03] Right? That is that what you mean? No one really no one really no one really argues about what what the process of using genetic modification is. It's just whether or not a particular food stuff is labeled as GMO free or not, right? That's what's contentious.
+
+[56:16] That's true, yeah. And also for regulation purposes, too. Right, sure. Sure. Alright.
+
+[56:20] So uh yes, a giant thanks uh to the Golden Cadillac, uh John Deragon, Don Lee, Greg Bohm, all those uh guys. They did a uh a real solid service with that. Uh and uh maybe we should have uh, you know, occasionally we should have you come in and just give us a MoFAD update. Yeah, sure. Yeah?
+
+[56:36] You like that? Yeah. All right. And I'll stand you up. Yeah, nice.
+
+[56:39] All right. Uh well that was it. Cooking issues, labs in labs. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[56:54] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a non profit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[57:19] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit WhiteOakPastures.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, joined as usual with Nastasha The Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. And we got Evan in the control group today, right?
+
+[1:16] How are you doing, Evan? Good, how are you? You ever uh you don't talk much on the air? I guess. No, I'm uh been a quiet guy.
+
+[1:21] Yeah, quite guy. So are we saying, Stas when I rudely interrupted you as is my want? Nothing. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[1:27] Anything good going on? No, I was I was just looking up the A classic recipe that that uh I asked you to look up the uh oh and you're looking through. We got the uh for those of you that have uh never written a book before, which was me until like a month ago, uh the publisher comes out with this thing called a blad. A book layout and design thing. So we're just looking at just came in the Blads for the new cocktail book coming out in November.
+
+[1:51] November! November. You know who else's books are coming out in November? I don't know. For those of you that don't know the like it takes forever to get uh a book uh out because they like even though it's already done, they they go through a bunch of revisions and copy editing and then they send it overseas to get printed, and then it has to get shipped back, and they need to have it in the country for a little while before they ship it out, ba boop ba beep ba ba.
+
+[2:12] So when you're going through kind of traditional publishing route, it sure does take a long time. Doesn't it seem like it takes longer than you than you'd think it would stuff? Yeah, definitely. Especially because it's like it's done now. You're we're done with it, we're done.
+
+[2:22] And then now you like we just want it to come out. But uh we have some good friends with books coming out in November. I can't even remember all of them, like a bunch of good ones. Like uh Brooks, his book is coming out in uh October, November, the same publisher. Got the hip pressure cooking book coming out, bunch of good stuff coming up.
+
+[2:37] Anyways, uh anything good happened uh past couple days? Anything anything horrible? No. No? That's good.
+
+[2:43] Nothing good, nothing horrible. Uh I got this one off of uh the Twitter, sent in uh it's not a question, it's more just a hey, check this out. Uh, from uh at Jim Guarnieri writes to us, uh, and I haven't told you about this yet, Stas, because I want to get your direct uh reaction. So uh it's it's from uh I don't know whether it's Live Science or Live Science is the name of the website, and the reporter is Charles Choi, and writes about this baby poop bacteria help make healthy sausages. And the tag the tag the title line of the article Pooperoni.
+
+[3:16] It's a pooperoni. Because what they're doing is some scientists in England were trying to get uh the most kind of uh probiotic. So, you know, when you ferment sausages, right? One of the things you're looking for, well, the primary thing you're looking for is uh a drop in pH so that you can uh inhibit unhealthy things from growing in it by having uh the pH low enough that they won't grow. Uh so typically you get lactic acid bacteria, uh, and they also produce that awesome kind of lactic acid flavor.
+
+[3:42] And then the question as a as a sausage maker is where do you fall? Do you like a more acidic sausage? A lot of Americans tend to do kind of hardcore uh like really hard pH dropped uh fermented stuff I think 'cause they like the tang and also because you know it's definitely helps enhance food safety whereas you know I knew a lot of people who also like a really kind of mild, less tangy sausage, but they have to play more with, you know, making sure that they're on the safe side. What do you like better? Tangy or not tangy on a fermented sausage?
+
+[4:08] Um I don't think I care. I like most all sausages. You like them both? I don't like it when it gets so so tangy that the meat kind of gets granular and breaks up weird. Yeah.
+
+[4:15] You know what I'm talking about? Although sometimes I like it. There's some like citrus, some citrus dried sausages with like that have like like noticeable acid flavor to them other than just lactic. And those I kind of like even though they're crumbly. Whatever, anyway, that's not what I'm talking about here.
+
+[4:28] So the point is that these researchers in uh in the UK, I think it was UK, say, well, listen, we've growing bacteria they don't talk like that there. They're like, listen, we've growing bacteria inside these sausages anyway, so what if we doped it with some probiotic stuff so that we could say that it helps your intestines, you know, helps you pooper out while you're doing it, right? And so they figured who's got a lot of those uh you know probiotic stuff without a lot of pathogens? Babies, and so they uh they I guess like took a bunch of baby diapers and cultured stuff out and found some bacteria from the baby diapers that they thought were good and they started inoculating it into it making the uh pooperoni. What are your thoughts just reading this I mean that what do you well you know now that you like with a first blush would you have you wouldn't have a problem with pooperoni would you have been cultured so many times.
+
+[5:11] Yeah I'd be fine with it. Yeah I mean San Francisco sourdough like you know one of them one of s one of the main um uh back when they did testing which was decades ago uh they tested for strains of uh bacteria in the uh in the sourdough starters and one of them was you know the its main substrate is uh the gums of people with periodontal disease. Yeah so yeah I have a problem with that. That's even grosser, right? You'd like to rather poperoni.
+
+[5:35] You'd rather poperoni than the periodontal disease. Like you know sometimes. Yeah why? I don't know like why is it like that? Oh uh well I mean look it's so far removed anyway and like you know the like the most shocking the most kind of disturbing passage in modernist cuisine for those of you that have it is the one where they uh describe the s the experiment done in the submarine where uh they take all the sailors in the submarine and they they give them a uh a check in the you know a butt a butt check I said we can say that on air they check their butts and they uh they put a uh a phosphorescent powder in on their behinds right and didn't tell them about it and then a day later they took a a black light and walked around the sub uh submarine whole freaking submarine lit up like like a freaking club with the black light like showing the phosphorescent dust all the time used to eating that I'm saying you are so thoroughly coated with like all kind of like nastiness people touching their face, people touching their mouth, people touching their butt, people touching the ground and then wiping it all over every surface and then you touch that surface.
+
+[6:42] I mean my thing is like look I got mental issues like uh not just cooking issues people I have some mental issues on like for instance public restrooms like I can't use it but I know that it's irrational. I know that my fear and disgust of public restrooms and of touching uh faucets and knobs uh in in public restrooms and areas like that. I know that it's illogical because I know that that stuff is everywhere, but I just can't kick it, you know? I don't know. Mm-hmm.
+
+[7:07] What about you? You don't like a public restroom either. Nobody likes a public restroom. If you like a like, I don't know, someone can call it. Maybe they're like oh, by the way, if you do have a question related to cooking, call it in two 718-497-2128.
+
+[7:19] That's 7184972128. Oh, well, so the tagline is the baby poop helps actually make the sausage more healthy, more healthy. It also reminds me of the interesting case. Do you remember that article that McGee sent us about the uh salt risen bread and the clostridium porfringans and the guys in the right after World War I, they had saved some culture from a soldier who had died from gas gangrene, this like Clostridium that like, you know, like ate this guy's leg and like blew it up with gas and stuff like that, and they made bread with it. Whoa.
+
+[7:45] And they ate it. And they didn't die, apparently. Well, I mean, they're dead now. Now they're dead. Uh at Cless wrote in uh last week, not in time for the last thing.
+
+[7:54] He says, uh, at cooking issues, if you could read a list of microplane uses that you could think of in the style of John Mashita that would be great. You remember him? I can't I can't do it. I can't I mean look, if if I had a script and I memorized it, maybe I could talk as fast as he can, but he's the guy in the FedEx commercial who's like, you know, got it good, got a good deal deal. Remember this?
+
+[8:12] Yeah. No, you're too young. Oh, anyway, like for any of you that were alive in the 80s and remember these FedEx commercials. He was like a super fast talking guy on a telephone who would just nonstop like stream of craziness. They're awesome commercials.
+
+[8:23] I just watched them this morning on the YouTube to get a refresher on it, and they're still good. I like a commercial, it's still good. No? You don't care. Yeah, no, yeah, I'm at some.
+
+[8:31] Alright, so here are some uh here are some uh uses uh at Clef's, and they and these aren't my own uses, these are just you know obvious uses for uh microplane. So by the way, when you buy a microplane, before I get into it, you know, it there's various different sizes of uh they're not just physical sizes of the microplane unit itself, but actual uh differences in the way that the cutting teeth are arranged. They have ribbon slicers, they have coarse slicer, uh, you know, coarse graters, they have fine graters, they have ultra fine for spices and stuff like that. I tend to use mainly just uh the the normal fine one, which I use for for zests in that. But I mean obviously there's a lot more uses if you're getting some of the coarser ones, if you want to grate things like apples and carrots and stuff.
+
+[9:09] But I don't I don't do that much. You use a lot of microplane? No. Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:13] Like you're against it, or doesn't come out. No, I actually use it for parmesan cheese. But that's about it. That's it. Okay.
+
+[9:19] So uh file like most of these things under uh under I didn't come up with any like killer ones that I hadn't already known about. I'm sorry about that at cla at Clefs. But anyway, uh or should I just if someone's at Clef, should I just call them Clefs? Yeah. Yeah, Clef's.
+
+[9:33] Yeah, all right. Uh so obviously spices, right? So you got your uh your nutmeg, your cinnamon, your balinese long pepper, your grains of salim, or as they say in in uh Wolof jark. Like what other hard spices you got? Probably a lot of hard spec.
+
+[9:45] Any hard spice that's big enough to hold in your hand, you could do, right? I mean pretty much. Uh I wonder whether cola nuts would be good. I don't really like cola nuts, but I bet you you could grate them. Anyways, uh obviously any hard product, uh fatty hard product like chocolate or hard cheese, duh, zest, uh any c uh any kind of zest.
+
+[10:01] I mean duh uh horseradish, if you want a real fluffy horseradish. Although I wouldn't do it with with sabi because I don't think it can grate it fine enough. However, if you have another mortar and pestle thing, but you don't have like the like the good old shark skin thing to grade into a fine paste for wasabi, a good approximation is to take the wasabi, grate it first in a microplane and then grind it in a regular mortar and pestle because it breaks down the fibers to the extent that you can get a good paste grind afterwards. Most people don't think about this, but very, very, very few um uh grinding technologies or blending technologies are good at reducing something from a very large particle size to a very small particle size, the whole range of particle sizes. So sometimes a dual uh a dual action thing like that is necessary.
+
+[10:44] Now the shark skins guys are good because they fundamentally abrade it like sandpaper, but make it easy enough to get the stuff out after it's done. So it's ideal for that. But if you don't have that, you could probably do a pretty good job by microplaning first and then mortar and pestling it with a standard uh Western style mortar and pestle. I wouldn't you I mean like at home, I don't really use standard mortar and pencils. I have a moca hete I use for things like guacamole and garlic and stuff like that, but it'd be too coarse.
+
+[11:07] I'd lose so much wasabi and the price would make me so angry. But anyway, uh horseradish, uh other hard stuff like coconuts, but not if you need too much. Can you imagine having to grate all that all that stuff on the chink shing shit? They have the rotary one, but I don't I don't have it, I don't use it. Anyway, uh also nut nuts, like larger nuts that you give you want like a little bit of grated uh walnut, grated almonds, things like this.
+
+[11:25] Obviously, things like ginger, fantastic, peel it first, uh, and anything related to ginger, any rhizome related to ginger. So you got your turmeric, you got your galangal, which uh, you know, people don't use enough fresh galangle. They really don't. Turmeric, we just did a bunch of demos with it. I can understand why you wouldn't want to use fresh turmeric because it stains the hell out of everything.
+
+[11:42] Although I used some and it didn't have as much uh you know what I didn't realize this people? Turmeric, uh, the amount of flavor seems kind of directly related to the color intensity. So we had a batch that had a very low color intensity and it had much less flavor per gram than uh than the ones with the higher color intensity. I hadn't realized that. Maybe someone else has some experience with this and they can tell me.
+
+[12:02] Uh a lot of people do garlic. I don't. You ever garlic, you ever garlic micro microplane? Um I've never done it. I mean, I'm sure it would work.
+
+[12:10] But yeah, I you know what I secretly I hate chopping garlic. I do too. I hate it. I hate it. I just hate it.
+
+[12:15] I like handing it off to somebody. I hate it. You know what uh you know what I hate? I hate that I hate that that weird sugary sticky paper sticks to you and the paper sticks to the knife after you smash it. I just don't like it.
+
+[12:25] I hate it. I don't like smashing it. I don't like I still I still don't like dealing with it. I really don't. I mean I love the flavor of it, but you know, and maybe I'll try this other thing.
+
+[12:34] Okay. I've never tried Katsu Bushi, but I'm sure it would work. You know, obviously not for what you normally use it for in Dashi, but if you wanted to like grate a little bit of Katsu Bushi over the top of something, I'm sure that'd be great. That's dried bonito for you other folks out there. Uh I have tried it with uh dried uh Chinese scallops and it's fantastic for that as a finishing thing.
+
+[12:50] I've tried it with botarga, which is great because batarga is so freaking expensive that you want something really accurate, like a microplane that you can make a like a fine grating of the botar over the uh over the you like potaga? I do. Both like the mullet and the tuna, you like them both. I don't know the difference. Right, it's mullet and tuna the two, right?
+
+[13:07] That they do. I know it's mullet and I think the other one is tuna. I think it is. Uh it's I don't buy it anymore, but the price look, when I was uh like like fifteen, sixteen years ago, I could go to the international grocery on on 40th Street and buy it for uh like I don't know, I could buy like a whole row sack. It's not can't be tuna because it's so small.
+
+[13:26] But I buy like a whole row sack for like uh I want to say like twenty bucks or something like that. You know what I mean? And it's like so expensive now. It's just so damned expensive. It's like a hundred, it's like over a hundred dollars a pound that stuff.
+
+[13:38] Wow. It's crazy. I like it though. Uh so then you got uh some cool thing cool things like at Co, they open when they open, they had that frozen foie gras where they froze the lobe and then they microplane the uh frozen foie gras over the top of stuff. That's a good use.
+
+[13:51] You got your uh Faron uh Adria did his uh cauliflower couscous with a microplane where he grates just the tips of the florets off and they look like uh couscous. Uh people seem to enjoy that. I've never done it. Wiley used to microplane, uh he used to take gel-an and set it like re gelin, you know, the hydrocolloid. He would gel it at really high percentages, like three percent, which by the way, if you're not a hydrocolloid head, freaking unheard of.
+
+[14:13] Like dance, dance, dance, dance. But he used to then grate it like batarga. He would like make different flavors of this. Like soup. I don't know if he still does it, but it's a technique he used for quite a while.
+
+[14:23] Also, frozen meats or fish. If you want like a little bit of that flavor over, you want to incorporate it in, that you can just grate with the microplane. And America's Test Kitchen recommends uh using it to get the burn off of cookies if you burn a little bit of the cookies to grate it off. And uh, you know, you could try that on, I guess you could try it on like bread and toast. Don't you hate it when you get a little bit of the I just use the sharp, I just like flat scrape blade my uh knife across the top of toast when it gets burnt.
+
+[14:46] You ever do that? You try to save it and then you give yourself that piece, you give everyone else the good piece, and you get yours looks all stupid and scraped with the little chatter marks because you chattered when you scrape the thing across it and you feel like a D-bag for wasting the bread, but you didn't buy enough extra, so you can't just like throw it away or feed it to the dog or something. Happens all the time, right? I hate that. God, I hate that.
+
+[15:04] Uh and as usual, the microplane can be used for its intended purpose, woodworking. And just a great uh uh gross does out, microplanes, they sell them for personal use, and by that it means shaving the uh the dead skin off the bottom of your feet. Yeah. There's a guy at 54 Eldritch, which is where our lab is, and uh, we call the man Coconut Feet because he sits outside with a freaking paring knife and carves the calluses off of his feet, and it looks like shavings of coconut on the on the side of the street, right? We never learned his actual name.
+
+[15:33] We just call him coconut foot, right? And the wind picks up. Oh, Jesus. Now you're killing me. Now you're killing me.
+
+[15:40] Uh let's see. Okay. Uh Travis Hawkins wrote in uh on the Twitter love uh the crap you give Nastasha for her friends tomatoes in the fridge. Uh yeah, yeah, nice, right? Nice.
+
+[15:50] Uh he's just now Sasha's like, great, here comes more punishment. No, no, no punishment for you. Uh could you do a show on other common kitchen uh oh I thought you said kit kitchen football. I thought you said refrigerator faux pas. Yeah we could probably do a whole show on kitchen faux pas.
+
+[16:00] But I was just thinking you mean refrigerator. Don't put like don't go to get mozzarella here, I'll just do some refrigerator stuff for you. Don't go to uh don't go to the the you know buy your fresh mozzarella and then put it in the fridge unless you really are an enemy of quality. Like uh do you don't put fresh mozzarella in the fridge do you? No.
+
+[16:18] Because you're gonna eat it that day anyway. I mean and you can leave it out the whole damn day. It's gonna change a little bit but the texture is better. I'd rather have it take on a little bit of a tang than have it get its texture ruined by being in in in the fridge. Now theoretically if you let that giant ball of mozzarella temper out all the way through to room temperature it will they say get back to where it was but I don't believe it and I've done side by side taste tests and the refrigerator just ruins it.
+
+[16:41] So don't put that there. I actually um if you okay now here's where Nastasha's like Maddie daddy mom. If you happen to have a uh a wine cooler or a place of that temperature I store usually all of my cheese that way instead of storing it in the fridge because it's much faster and I hate it when someone takes a nice piece of cheese and they leave it in the fridge and they forget to pull it out. You know you're gonna forget to pull it out. Like if you're me, like I'll pull that crap out hours beforehand.
+
+[17:09] Like like at lunchtime if I know I have nice cheese and it's been in the fridge I'm like I'm gonna pull that sucker out like around lunchtime so that like right before dinner when we want to eat the cheese do you are you before cheese uh before dinner cheese or after dinner cheese? Really? I when I'm out when I like when I'm home I like dinner of the cheese beforehand. When I'm out I really like a cheese plate at the end of the meal. And also I obviously like stilton at the end of the meal because that's when I want my port.
+
+[17:31] I want my port at the end of the meal and port and stilton I hey, look, I know it's tripe, but that is one of the that is one of the few straight up delicious food pairings in the world where uh food wine pairings. Like most food and wine pairings, people are like, eh, mm-hmm. No, that one is really actually good. Do you like port and stilton? It's it's good.
+
+[17:46] Walnuts, port, stilton. Okay. Uh so cheese. Uh avocados, do not store them in the fridge until they are ripe. Once they're ripe, you may store them in the fridge.
+
+[17:55] But do not put a freaking baseball uh hard avocado in the fridge. Nastasha has a California girl, can appreciate this. Uh well, you probably like swimming in avocados. Yeah, we had a huge tree. Yeah.
+
+[18:08] You know, like, so you never had the situation happen like you do here where you're like, I need one tonight and they're all hard. And they're all well, I don't buy I don't I don't shop into a fancy five dollar avocado neighborhoods. Down by you? You gotta go to Styles, Farmers. No, no, even those like you they can be when they're out of season.
+
+[18:25] Yeah, well, like luckily I live in a neighborhood that plows through avocados like the end of the world is coming, so there's a huge amount of competition for the consumers' avocado dollars in my neighborhood. And so I never pay more than uh like at tops, like at the worst of times, $250 for the Haas, you know, and sometimes much, much less, like 99 cents. Anyway, whatever. I'm sure yeah, you California people are like laughing. Like, they're free for me.
+
+[18:48] I live in California or in Florida, you know what I mean? Whatever. You know, we have our advantages out here. Hey, you you moved out here. You feel more like a New Yorker.
+
+[18:55] Yeah, yeah, I know I know. I mean right now I don't know what our advantages are. Well, we don't have weather advantages. I mean, like, you know, it's whatever. I don't know.
+
+[19:02] I've never I mean I I have lived in California, but I was too young to remember it. Uh coffee. Do not store coffee in the uh fridge. Uh that I don't mean the beverage. I mean, you know, the the product.
+
+[19:13] You're gonna get condensation as it comes in and out of the fridge or in the freezer, and the water is gonna do you damage. Don't do that. Uh do not, do not store bread in the fridge. Holy crap. How many times have you seen people do this?
+
+[19:26] Why would you put bread in the fridge? It's like it's, it's refrigeration is the like retrogradation of starch is vastly, vastly sped up by refrigeration. And I've said it before on the show a couple of times, so general rule of thumb is is that freezing of bread, right, it is uh you need to do it rapidly because just the just the amount of time that it stays in the unfrozen zone before it freezes in that horrible retrogradation like heavy zone right around refrigeration temperatures, the amount of time it spends there just as it's freezing and thawing out again is equivalent to uh roughly a full day's of staling uh sitting on your counter. So do not store breads unless they're so jacked with like you know emulsifiers and anti-staling agents like Wonder Bread that it doesn't really freaking matter. That's that doesn't really matter.
+
+[20:14] I mean that's more of like a miracle of chemistry than bread right potatoes do not store potatoes in the fridge unless you don't mind the fact that they're going to increase their sugar content and so then if you're going to fry them or something like that they'll get overly brown. If you don't care about that do whatever you like. It's a waste of freaking space to store uh you know I don't know I don't know which of you people out there have so much freaking space that you can just throw five pound bags of potatoes into your fridge without breaking a sweat but if you're that person and you're not going to fry them and you're not worried about the extra sugar content and you're an enemy of quality go ahead and do it. Many herbs should not be stored in the refrigerator if you're going to do long term storage. I do this because I don't know because I'm a jerk but you know you get the herbs you bring them home you put them in a plastic bag you throw them in the thing and two days later what happens?
+
+[20:58] They get that weird glossy gross look they smell like a swamp, and uh you've got tissue damage where they get all waterlogged. You know what I'm talking about, styles, right? Better to do what Nastasha does at 54 Eldritch, which is she puts a glass of water and she sticks the herb into it and it sits there for you know a bazillion years. Now, she has the unfortunate habit of then never using the freaking herb. You smell bad for throwing it out.
+
+[21:18] Yeah, well, kudos to that. That's actually a good instinct. Uh onion, I don't like storing onions in the in the fridge. I'm just worried it's going to transfer. I don't know.
+
+[21:27] I just don't do it. I don't know that it's actually bad, although some people say it is. I've never had a nightmare happen, and people have stored onions in my fridge, but I don't do it. Um here's a reverse faux pas, stuff you should store in your fridge, but maybe don't. Apples, store your apples in the fridge.
+
+[21:43] As soon as you get apples home, store them in the fridge. If you pick apples, store them in the fridge. Apples, as when they're at room temperature, they're respiring. Do I hate that word? I kind of like it, respire.
+
+[21:56] They're uh and what's happening is is they're um losing malic acid, right? Uh and uh and and changing and ripening on the thing. So, like if you if you want to you know have it go, if you want to lose your texture, if you want it to go uh overripe on you, if you want to lose the acid, and and very few cooks want to lose acid in an apple, then by all means, uh, you know, don't put it in the fridge. But if you want it, if you want to keep those flavors, it's like we had those ash meets kernels in, those really expensive apples, and they got left out of the walk-in because someone was like, Oh, you don't need to refrigerate those apples because they're not gonna go bad. And in fact, we took you know a lot of money in a very fancy apple, and in short order, we erased a lot of its awesome characteristics because it went from being kind of at peak with its good acid content to being lower in acid than I liked and a little overripe.
+
+[22:49] And as you know, like apples, when they get overripe, they get uh a little bit floral. They end up tasting not necessarily in a good way, but more like a Fuji. You know how Fuji's have that kind of floral sugary taste? They tend to go in that kind of direction, and of course they get mealier, which doesn't matter to me because I'm gonna juice the hell out of them anyway. But it's amazing to me how otherwise trained food professionals can't taste around the texture of an apple.
+
+[23:09] Uh it's inherently bad. Citrus. Citrus, you can keep it outside of the fridge, but the quality of it stays better if it's in the fridge. Now, if you have cases of lime sitting around, it's not reasonable to put them in the fridge, fine. But if you have a very expensive uh, you know, setsuma or something like this, and you want to maintain its quality, uh, I would keep it in the fridge just to maintain its quality.
+
+[23:29] Uh the grapefruit, especially, I think, needs to be refrigerated to maintain its quality, otherwise the flavor starts to go. At least I've read about it. I don't have as much. And uh, sweet corn, especially older style sweet corns that aren't like have like all the super sweet genes in them, the colder they are, the better they'll keep their sweetness. The best thing to do is not stir those suckers at all, is to just to buy those suckers and cook them right away.
+
+[23:46] That's the best thing, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I was like, I don't care. Okay.
+
+[23:50] Uh all right. Shall we take a uh break? Yeah. Let's go to commercial break, come right back with the cooking issues. Is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse, and it's USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slaughterhouse.
+
+[24:27] We partner with whole foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humanium animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, Whiteoak Pastures.com. Oh, yeah.
+
+[25:00] I love the way he says abattoir. Abatois. Uh speaking of uh abattoir, uh the what do you like? Do you like slaughterhouse better or you like abattoir? I'm slaughterhouse.
+
+[25:11] Really? Yeah. I love the that's one of the things I like about style. She's like, give me the blunt stuff. Go blunt.
+
+[25:18] You know what I mean? Like, much better to go blunt. And speaking of blunt, there was uh on Sunday a I don't know whether it's a piece. What is it? It's not an opinion piece, it's just a an article in the New York Times about uh a slaughterhouse in San Francisco.
+
+[25:34] Uh, and uh her first name just went out of my head. It's Nyman, one of the owners of Nyman Ranch. Christoph? No, no, no. This is like a blog.
+
+[25:43] No, no, anyway. I'll I'll figure it out. Anyway, she wrote uh an article on it because the slaughterhouse that they use was affected, and there was a recall on all the meat that was slaughtered in 2013 at this slaughterhouse in the Bay Area, and uh because uh there was some there was some uh unsound uh cows that had been slaughtered in that place. And so the USDA response was to initiate a facility wide recall, even though, right, that the the cows that Nyman Ranch had slaughtered there are, you know, were totally fine, and we're under a lot of uh of scrutiny. And she was saying how ineffective our uh legislation is uh at dealing with situations like this.
+
+[26:26] So I'm not gonna get into the details of it, but I encourage you to go to the New York Times, as I think it was on Sunday, and uh look it up and check out kind of what's going on with uh with regulations and the way that it's uh harming small-scale producers who are trying to do uh the right thing by producing uh humane sustainable meat. Caller, you're on the air. Uh yeah, Dave, Dan, Seattle. Um couple of questions, uh both related to ramen. Okay.
+
+[26:51] Um, first of all, are you familiar with Yuzu Kashu, the Japanese citrus pepper paste? Uh yes. I mean, I I I I don't use it much myself, but yeah, I'm familiar with it. Okay. I've just I've gone crazy for the stuff, and I'm using a ton of it.
+
+[27:07] And I mostly use it, I mostly souvita sou v pork with it, which if you haven't never tried that, I recommend it. But the stuff is crushingly expensive in the quantities that I'm using it in. And when you cook the heck out of it for 24, 36 hours, I'm thinking that some subtlety gets lost anyway. Do you off the top of your head have an idea about how to go about faking this from iron juice rind and whatever? Well, that's the thing.
+
+[27:33] Yuzu has a very particular flavor, and it, you know, uh, and it has to do with uh the you know, not just the f the fruit itself, but the oils that are in the rind, right? So there are other citruses that are available, and on the West Coast, I mean there are people who produce Yuzu commercially, and it would probably be I mean it's still fantastically expensive. I've at the last time uh we bought some, I I forget what it was some unconscionable amount of money, like a couple dollars per fruit or something like that. But um, it's definitely that would be uh a cheaper way, but I I've never found I found other citrus, like weird citrus. Gene Lester is a fine, you know, a collector of citrus in California in Watsonville, and you know, Nastasha and Harold McGee and I went over to his ranch and we tasted a bunch of stuff.
+
+[28:23] And they um he had some citrus that like that like was he had Yuzu, which was delicious, he had bergamot, which was great, but he also had like weird citrus that I've never had before that had some of these like strange oils in them that would make a good substitute. But I can't think of uh anything offhand. I am sure though, that this is one of those things that hope hopefully one of our listeners will uh tweet on in something, some recommendation that they have to to get it done. Um but you know, it might be cheaper, like how much do they charge for it? It it's two or three dollars an ounce in the and the three ounce things that they'll sell little jars that they'll sell it to you in.
+
+[29:03] And it's a it's a blend of Yuzu, to uh Togurachi and um salt. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you could fake it. Uh you know what? We'll figure out how to fake.
+
+[29:11] I'm sure uh if you can find a supply of the Yuzu, it might actually be cheaper just to just to to make it, you know. Uh uh, because they're definitely upselling you on it. You know where they make it? Do they make it stateside or they ship it in? I believe the stuff I'm buying is from Japan.
+
+[29:26] I mean, it's you you can't find an English letter on the box, hardly. Yeah, so you're you mean look, you're you're just getting ruined by like everything there, like the cost of producing Yuzu over there, like how crappy our dollar is versus uh the yen in terms of buying power over there and the shipping. You're just getting it every which way on that. So if you could find like a California producer of Yuzu, uh, you know, I'm sure that there's someone that that ships the fruit up there, you could probably adjust the flavor to however you want. You know what I mean?
+
+[29:54] And you could probably come in way under the line on that. I just never done it, so I you know, I hesitate to give you any recommendations right off the bat, you know what I mean? Uh so but but you think it would be a lot if I can figure out where to buy an entire case of Yuzu, it would you think it will be quite a bit cheaper? Uh oh, a case of Yuzu is gonna set you back. One time, uh I forget some Japanese chef was doing Star Chefs, and Nils and I, he ordered two use he ordered he ordered two Yuzu, and they gave him two cases instead.
+
+[30:21] And Nils and I just took that thing and we made clarified like fresh clarified yuzu and uh did carbonated cocktails with it. But I mean, I'm pretty sure we blasted through a couple hundred dollars of Yuzu in that on that day. I mean, you're gonna I mean you're still probably gonna be buying them by the by the piece. I don't know that I don't know you're gonna want to invest in a caseload yet, but you know, like uh look out here you can buy uh Yuzu by the piece for a couple bucks a piece at um at some of the Japanese uh markets. The Japanese markets will have, you know, even ones that just do prepared foods that that serve that sell any kind of uh Japanese products for cooking away, usually you'll have one or two sitting around, maybe even if you're lucky, some Sudachi to mess around with, which are also expensive and delicious.
+
+[31:04] Uh thank you very much. Um uh that's certainly enough to start on on that one. Um related question. Um I'm trying to figure out f fresh ramen noodles. Um, and I've got a couple of decent recipes for I mean the actual, you know, how much uh how much flour, how much lime water, how much gluten, yada yada.
+
+[31:27] Right. But I've got a brand new meat grinder that comes with the larger whole disc is about the right size. Do you have an opinion whether the pressures to push dough through that would just blow the thing apart? Yeah, I am I I am very skeptical that that will work just because I've never seen anyone do pasta in the the meat grinder and I know that the pasta extruder attachment for the Kitchen aids doesn't really do much of anything at all. Uh I I've had that unfortunate experience, yes.
+
+[32:05] Yeah, I know. It's no it's no good. I mean every you know everyone wishes we had the you know what the ideas and food guys have, which is that arco Bellino or similar uh extruder. Um the ram what what's the hydration on the ramen noodle recipe that you have? I would ha I would have to look it up, but it's fairly high.
+
+[32:24] I mean it's there's there's quite a bit of water in it. Yeah and my my br my like uh my brain is a erased now is it is it steam or boil before fry or fry and then steam? I always forget and then dry. I think it's I think it's I think it's quick steam or f or boil, then fry, then dry, I think. My brain is totally erased on this though.
+
+[32:43] Um well the the recipe I have, which is actually off an excellent blog called Tessa's Japanese Kitchen or something close to that. Right. Um she makes the noodles fresh and just boils them. But I mean I mean I don't think itself a mild simplification of the full deal. Yeah you need a fry step.
+
+[33:02] Well I guess maybe not like if you're gonna make it fresh, what am I talking about? Like I guess not. Like but we know the commercial one they're like the ramen noodle that you know we grow up with they're fried to expel the water and get a little grease in so that they absorb a lot of the water from whatever they're placed in. You know what I mean? Yes.
+
+[33:18] Uh so they have a fry step involved with it, but perhap you know perhaps uh you know this is something I would I would defer to someone with actual uh cultural experience as opposed to you know just you know an American's experience of what ramen is like um so I don't know maybe that's the case maybe a fry step is not required but I know commercially that's what's done. And whatnot. But um all right so but regardless the meat grinder thing is unlikely to work. Hey look I don't think you're gonna ruin the meat grinder I just think it's not gonna work. Okay so you think it would just it would just not make noodles.
+
+[33:53] Yeah well what do you what are you attaching the meat grinder to what kind is it is it standalone with a big powerful motor? Yes it it's a standalone half okay I've I had one KitchenAid tack on meat grinder and it lasted like four or five years. It was great I mean it wasn't great but it was perfectly adequate. It finally died I literally wore the bearings out the bushings out in it. Yeah well what I but but oh sh calm down Captain but then the new one um cracks in a in a month.
+
+[34:24] They changed it cheapened at something Cabella's half horsepower and um I mean if it bogs down I mean here's my here's my thing. If the motor starts bogging down and heating up then obviously I'd I'd hold back on it. But I think you're gonna be alright you know it's alright to test it. I don't think you're gonna shatter it mean as long as the gears in it uh assuming it's geared down which it has to be otherwise it would go crazy assuming the gears are of some sort of uh metal uh and you don't crush it hard fast you know what I mean like you you you kind of sneak up on it a little bit. I think you're gonna be alright.
+
+[35:03] I mean, most of the time when you know gears break in mechanisms like that, it's because of a hard stop, you know. Alright, so you don't. It's not likely, but you don't think it will result in metal parts flying across the road. Uh, do not think it will. I mean, uh I won't hold you to that.
+
+[35:18] All right, very good. And you're gonna obviously want to uh you're gonna need some method to space it that allows you to remove the uh the cutting blade from the from the inside of the grinder. Yeah, um, I I can surely find something to stick with stainless steel something to stick in there for that. Yeah, or double you could double plate it. Uh no, because it'll rotate.
+
+[35:40] Well, I mean I can do that I think I can just use stainless steel washers. Yeah, all right. Yeah, just you know, you don't want the blade in there because obviously that's gonna be hacking the stuff right when you want it to be whole. Got it. Yep.
+
+[35:51] Thank you very much. Alrighty, good luck with it. All righty. Uh we have a question in from Lucas. Like Lucas.
+
+[36:02] Yes, we do need to cook his meat. Yeah. We we certain we most certainly we should do that soon. Mm-hmm. We we we just got a lot of stuff off our plate.
+
+[36:08] We can do that soon. As soon as we as soon as we get the prototype approved for the Sears all, it's gonna be a load off my mind. I can start uh thinking about cooking again. You know what I mean? Doing some real cooking.
+
+[36:17] Uh hi, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe, and Evan now. Uh as you know, I love the show. Long time listener. I heard about Dave's restaurant quality espresso machine he bought from a uh from an Italian mobster while fighting rat infestation. True story, but uh what I don't what I don't think I mentioned is that the guy that I paid to take it home in my car was a a guy who had just gotten out of Rikers for dealing crack and was setting up a uh a food truck downtown, and I accidentally he was like a weird guy.
+
+[36:46] He he w refused to refer to me as anything but white boy. And like the and I don't know, I paid him 20 bucks to take it home because when you buy stuff at an auction, it's as is where is, right? You don't get to choose, you know, you it it you know you gotta get that thing out of there right now. And I accidentally left the pump. Uh the act, you know, the actual like uh you know, the um uh it's a rotary vein pump that they use in espresso machines, real ones, and uh I left it in his freaking car.
+
+[37:09] So I had to go out there to his house, which was craziness, craziness to get it. But you know, he actually he's a nice guy. I mean, look, I mean, uh uh other than the other than the doing time for dealing crack, he seemed like a and calling me white boy incessantly. Did you have to call him and say this is white boy? I left my I liter I literally did.
+
+[37:29] Like, I I forget like why I even had the guy's number or was able to find him. But because he, I don't know, he was like, you know, look up my food truck or whatever, like this, but like I was like, hey, remember white boy with the espresso machine? I was like, which is it's uh yeah, it's an uncomfortable thing to have to refer to yourself as in the therapy. Hey, whatever anyway. Uh okay, well, fighting rat infestation.
+
+[37:51] I recently bought a house outside of the village and suddenly found myself in need of making coffee. I drink exclusively espresso and wanted to follow in Dave's steps and buy something used, possibly cheap. The question I have is most of the machines I saw are advertising 450 watts of power consumption. I assume this is during the heating process, uh, not once it's uh just kept on standing alone. Basically, how much power does this thing need on a regular basis?
+
+[38:16] Uh, and did you uh change the water tank to a smaller one? Do you keep it on all the time? Can you use it to mu uh uh can you uh use it to modify it to operate it without access to um uh water, you know, fresh fresh water on on tap. I would love to have it in the living or dining room rather than the kitchen. The second completely unrelated question I want is to work on my Indian cooking.
+
+[38:36] Where do you buy good quality spices in the city? I know of Le Boit in Midtown, but this is already uh mixed spices, and part of the fun of Indian cooking is mixing them yourself, kind of regards Lucas. Let's go in reverse order here. So for spices, I don't really have a source of like the super highest quality stuff. You know, I end up buying most of my spices at dual specialty shop on First Avenue and like around six or something like that or seventh, and Calustians, and then there's a uh there's another couple of spice shops that are right around Calustian's, you know, in the 20s on uh Lex.
+
+[39:06] But uh, you know, it look I love those stores, and I you know, I'm I'm not saying anything negative about them, but sometimes they you know, this stuff's been sitting around a lot. And you know, Piper and I used to joke around that everything has like the Calustean smell, which is not look, it's not an insult, it's just like they got a lot of spices hanging around there, and not all the product moves all the time. But if you're buying whole products there, a lot of times you can get really you know high high quality stuff. And for instance, I know dual specialty sometimes has the uh assafetida, the hang in kind of these block chunks, and I find and you might hey microplane, there's another microplane thing, acetata, the the chunks of hang. Uh when it's in that chunk form, even though I think they still have it mixed with fenigreek and all that crap, it's just much less accurate and better in that format.
+
+[39:48] Now, on to the coffee machines. Here is here's the thing. Uh it uses a boatload of power. They're they're all of those, so you're looking at a two group or three group machine. Uh you can get a single group espresso machine.
+
+[40:03] Now, the old the the newer ones are, you know, they're fantastically expensive, like the Lammar Tsoko single groups. The single group espresso machines, by and large, you can run those things off of a hundred and twenty volts single phase, and they're gonna pull somewhere in the area of 1500 watts or something like that, right? So doable uh off of a normal plug. They think they want you to use a 20 amp plug off of 120, but it's not 100% necessary. Uh once you're in a two-group or uh situation uh or more, you're gonna need uh you're gonna need 240.
+
+[40:34] And I think maybe even some of the bigger ones might need 208, but I'm not sure. The one that I had, which is a dual group ranchillo, required uh you know, two two twenty slash whatever, two forty regular, you know, uh regular power, not three phase or anything like this. Now the the thing is you have to the advantage of these large machines is that uh they have a much more stable uh temperature profile in the shot than a smaller machine. And the reason is that the way uh a traditional heat exchanger, commercial espresso machine, the way it regulates itself is by having a very, very large thermal mass. And so they dump a lot a lot of heat into it and they radiate a lot of heat out of it.
+
+[41:19] And so that and and that's the the way the way it does it. And the bigger the ship, like the the less it steers around with little changes, like pulling a shot here or there. So in a in a in a in an old style um espresso machine, in other words, old style, meaning like a heat exchange espresso machine, and not like some PID dual boiler, blah blah blah blah blah. Although I have to say I've had shots out of some of those, and I still think that I like the the bigger machines end up being better. But if you were to taste the same barista, the same make of machine, the same everything, except for uh the barista was pulling one shot out of a single group and uh one shot out of a two-group, odds are the shot out of the two group is gonna be more consistent and better.
+
+[42:02] That's just the way it is. I don't think you get that much of an advantage if you're really only pulling one shot at a time out of a three-group or more. I think that once you get up to a two-group espresso machine, the stability the temperature stability is just a lot better. Now but it does throw a lot of heat out. In my experience from a two group from the 80s, which is what I was using, uh I had around a 15 minute heat up time.
+
+[42:25] Now everyone's going to disagree and says that it takes longer for it to get stable and all this, but whatever. Give yourself a half hour, put it on a timer, have it set to turn on a half hour before you get up in the morning and ha and have it have it go on. And if you you know you shoot hot water through it you can heat the heads up you know relatively quickly. You don't have to sit there and wait for everything to stabilize because you can pump water through it. Now I'm about to discourage you from having it in your living room and here's why.
+
+[42:50] It's messy. So you you need a knockbox and you have those grinds everywhere you're going to want a source of water to wipe down the grinds and to get all that stuff out and to rinse out the uh to rinse out your your your um the porta filter uh and all and all this other stuff. So I you know unless you can run a small amount of water near the machine like I've I always want it near the sink so I can you know rinse the parts when they're done I can scrub underneath with a scotch brite when it when it's done it's just much more convenient to have it in a kitchen setting. And having that sucker plumbed into the water supply through a filter is life changingly awesome. Now you can get around that you can take and you could install uh fundamentally what's like a water cooler with a gravity feed into a uh pump you know or from a corny keg into the uh rotary vein pump that those machines use and you can run it off a gravity feed with filtered water in uh you know, in a living room, but then you have to figure out a way to get rid of the wastewater as well because every time you pull a shot, when the uh when the three-way the solenoid kicks in, you're shooting a little bit of water out.
+
+[43:56] Every time you clean it, you're shooting water out. When you're putting the blind in to clean it and do all that stuff, you're shooting water out. So it tends to dump a bunch of water, and you need some place for that to go. And so you either have some sort of a like a improvised larger drip tray, or you have it plumbed into so like wherever your dishwasher goes in, I have a separate takeoff where my dishwasher goes in. I have a condensate pump that sits on the floor of my kitchen underneath the sink.
+
+[44:20] The espresso machine gravity feeds into the condensate pump, and then the condensate pump pops it through a check valve so I don't get backsplashing into the drain line right next to where my washing machine drains into the uh tap. And that's how I do it. Uh that's what I'd recommend. I don't know technically, because it's been a long time, so I couldn't, I know I I now have one that runs on 120 because I don't have uh, you know, I don't have 220 in my in my apartment. So I couldn't throw an ammeter across my old uh guy, but they do suck power at the get-go.
+
+[44:48] I don't know what their steady state usage is, but once they're heated up, they don't use as much. You can you can feel when it clicks in and when it doesn't, you can see there's a pressure stat. And the way that the espresso those espresso machines work is is that they they come on when uh the pressure stat shows that the boiler pressures drop below a certain specified pressure. Anyways, so uh good luck with that. Um is that alright?
+
+[45:11] Yeah, you have like five minutes. Five? What time is it? 49. 49.
+
+[45:15] So I got like six minutes. So I got I got I got ten, but you're gonna give me five because you know I'm gonna go for ten anyway. It's 55 afterwards. No, jeebus. Alright, so I'm gonna have to go fast.
+
+[45:24] Uh hi, uh Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. Uh I asked the questions uh a couple weeks back about the off taste in Agar. I went back to telephone brand. Flavor gone. Good.
+
+[45:35] Uh using the same juice. I was using uh uh molecu the brand he he wrote R Molecule, but literally the brand is molecule R. Get it? Molecular brand before because uh they sold in bulk. I tasted the Agar alone and it's nasty stuff.
+
+[45:55] Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Actually, the same brand my mom used when I was a kid. Go figure. Hey, telephone, generation to generation. Telephone's the best.
+
+[46:03] Call up your friends. Use a telephone. You know what? Like, I don't even like do you like uh do you like that package? Like, I'm so used to that package.
+
+[46:10] Everyone likes it. Oh, I love it. I love telephone. I I just like the I like uh, you know, it's it's more expensive, I guess, than buying it in bulk, but whatever, telephone. Uh anyways, I have a few questions about Pectinx and adding body to low alcohol drinks.
+
+[46:22] As a brewer, I've been using uh generic powdered pectic enzyme from the homebrew store. Is there any benefit to using Pectonex Ultra SPL or are all pectinases created equal? No, they are not. Uh Thomas, this is Thomas from uh San Francisco. They are not created equal.
+
+[46:40] So the one you're using in brewing is probably optimized fine for whatever it's for uh there. But the the enzyme that I use, the ultra SPL, is very broad-based. It's not a single enzyme, in other words. What what they are is they're a group of enzymes that are produced by a particular strain of, I believe Aspergillus that uh that the good folks at Novozyme have isolated that produces a rather uh uh non-specific broad range uh pectinase and hemicellulase and some not much cellulase activity. So it's much more of a like an enzymatic baseball bat to use the SPL.
+
+[47:22] So when I called up Novazymes years ago when I was trying to figure out kind of what enzymes to use, because we had been using something called Pectinx uh Smash, XXL, which is uh optimized for the apple uh industry to increase the yield out of apple pumice when they're pressing to get juice and it's optimized for that. And she look literally, she said to me, Look, you know, if you're only going to use one enzyme, just use the SPL. That does everything that anything else is going to do. Uh it's just like it just it just takes care of it all. It's not optimized for any one industry, and so perhaps it's possibly more expensive on a per liter basis, but you're not using that much of it.
+
+[47:57] It's non-industrial, and it works on everything. So they use that in like olives to increase yield out of uh olives. Uh they use that in uh you could use it in apples, I use it in apples all the time. It's just really broad range stuff. And so, no, they're not all the same with amylases, like a lot of people uh you know use amylase to to break things down uh and they're not all the same either.
+
+[48:18] Uh, you know, just talk to the folks who convert uh potatoes into into vodka without doing you know using any sort of match and stuff. It's all just with it with the right choice of enzymes to get um you know as complete conversion as humanly possible. Okay. Secondly, do you have any recommendations for way to uh uh ways to add body to low uh alcohol by volume drinks, i.e. back sweetening ciders, etc.
+
+[48:41] I'm looking for something with high body effects but low sweetening. So far, I've been using beet sugar with good results, but wanted to see if you had any thoughts on the subject. Uh uh, thanks for all the work you do, Thomas from uh San Francisco. Okay, so the uh the issue here is that um the issue is that if you're adding sugar, you can use sugar, but it's gonna make it sweeter. You want it less sweet.
+
+[49:01] Also, if you're gonna store something for a long time that has live yeast in it, obviously the sugar is gonna ferment. Uh and so, you know, a lot of times people want to add for botting for sweetness now, for sweetness in body. They add a non-fermentable sugar like xylitol. Too much xylitol, and it runs through you like well, like crap through a tin goose, or it's crap through a goose. That's what Patton said, right?
+
+[49:18] We're gonna run through them like crap through a goose. Isn't that what he said? Something like that. Anyways, and oh crap does run through geese. Man, I hate geese.
+
+[49:26] Anyway, uh they're good eat. But the um point is that uh you want it non-sweet. So what you're gonna want to do, I think, is find something like glucose syrup. Now, glucose syrup uh is actually uh it has some glucose in it, which is sweet, but it's also got a lot of uh dextrins in it. Things like you know, uh like higher order polysaccharides that are roughly tasteless but add a lot of body and under society benefit, they're not very fermentable.
+
+[49:50] So a lot of times when I want to make something very dense, like a liquid very dense, without using without making it sweet, I'll put in glucose syrup. Uh and you look at you want like a very low DE, the dextrose equivalent on the glucose syrup, because that means that it, you know, very little of it's been converted all the way to glucose, and you have a lot of uh, you know, larger chain polysaccharides that are gonna add a lot of body but aren't gonna add any sweetness at all. Glucose syrup is you know very dully sweet, very, very dully sweet. And you can buy it at uh you know um pastry supply houses. Um, uh Tony, you asked me a question about soda and cocktails.
+
+[50:27] I don't know if I'm gonna have time to get to it. Uh so I'm gonna get you next time uh and I'll get you some more information about value. Tony from Brazil, our friend from Brazil, wrote in to ask about uh carbonated cocktails on tap, and it's gonna take me too long to go into the rant on carbonated cocktails to to deal with here. Nastash is like shuddering, just thinking about it. So put it on next week's uh topic and we'll talk about it.
+
+[50:47] But Sam, I've missed you uh two uh weeks uh in uh uh a row, uh, and I thought I was gonna be able to get Mark Ladner on to uh discuss it, but uh I I couldn't make it work. So I'm gonna just read your question and I'll give you some brief thoughts right now. What's the best approach for homemade pasta sheets in uh lasagna bolognese? How do you like that? Bologna.
+
+[51:05] Say it with me, says. No. Come on. All right. Uh Marcella Hazan has you pre-blanch and rinse the pasta beforehand to combat sogginess.
+
+[51:12] Is this necessary compared to classic pasta dough recipe of one-ish cups of flour for about one egg? How do other pasta doughs compare? Like Keller's uh 12 egg yolk pasta, or I've read seven, or gluten dough pasta found in Modern Scuisina home. Thanks, Sam. Uh here's the deal.
+
+[51:27] Uh yeah, you want to pre cook that to form the uh to form the uh the structure. I should say I've never done it without cooking it, but I've always cooked lasagna before I've uh, you know, fresh lasagna before I've uh put it into because you want the protein to set and you want to uh have it bind and coagulate so that it doesn't get all uh trying to think of a non uh word I can use without non-cursing word. Anyway, shid yard. You know what I mean? Like you want it to be okay.
+
+[51:54] So but uh I don't know that for a fact. That's a question like maybe Stas can just ask Mark and repeat report back next week. But the thing on uh egg yolks versus eggs, I did a lot of research uh on this one, and there's some interesting articles on it. So if you look on the internet, most people will tell you that aside from the flavor and the color that you that you get in egg yolks, a lot of people say that if you do egg, I've always, by the way, this is just you know, for me, just so you know where I'm coming from. I was always a uh a whole egg guy.
+
+[52:20] I never I never did egg yolks uh and I never did egg whites. I always use whole eggs, always. And I would typically use one egg uh for every cup of whole of flour, and then I would add enough water to get the hydration where I wanted. That's just what I've always done, you know, since since I've started, you know, making pasta in my twenties. So the uh but it's a very interesting thing.
+
+[52:42] Now, if you look on the internet, a lot of people who are, you know, cooking, you know, practically cooking will tell you that the um the egg yolk one is harder, right? Uh and like you know, harder to knead and and chewyer and stuff like this. But I think they're making a fundamental uh mental error, and that is this. Egg yolk is uh has much less water in it than an egg white does. Like the water content of an egg yolk is only like somewhere close to uh you know a f the solids are high.
+
+[53:12] The solids are in the 50% range, when you include the fats and proteins and everything like that, there's not nearly as much water in an egg yolk as there is in an egg white. So in a study of um in a study that you can uh go read, I'm trying to get it to you before uh they rip the microphone off of me. If you go to uh modeling of fresh egg pasta characteristics for egg content and albumin to yolk ratio by uh Christina Alampreci, uh from this was in the Juno Journal of Food Engineering in 2009. And another good uh one is uh getting the name of it for you, uh for cooking of it is the influence of hydrothermal treatment on rheological and cooking characteristics of fresh egg pasta by a uh nuviari. Um but if you go to that first egg one, they say that actually if you adjust for the amount of water that's in the egg product that you're doing, that adding egg uh increases the uh the structure of the dough, something like fresh pasta, because you're increasing the protein content.
+
+[54:17] And in fact, the protein content, the most important one of them is from the white, is the ovalbumin, and that's what's forming the structure that's causing it to be firmer and have that firmer feeling of an of an egg pasta. Now, uh the homemade rather egg pasta, right? Uh so if you account for the water, the more egg yolk that you add, right, the um the less firm it is uh and uh the less firm it is when it's cooked, the softer it is, and the radically higher the fat content is. My feeling is is that is that people who say it's harder are making a lower hydration dough than they would normally make by using egg yolks and taking advantage of the plasticizing effect and the lubricating effect of the fat in the egg yolk, and it's allowing them to make what they can uh uh a more workable dough that is firmer because it's gonna have a fundamentally lower moisture content, and that's my feeling, but I'm gonna try to do a little more research on it and get back to it uh on next week, or maybe if we can get Mark. And on the way out, uh we had a uh final call, and we actually someone sent us this on the Twitter beforehand, but um Don't tell them why, just tell them to call it.
+
+[55:23] All right. Oh, yeah. I'm not gonna tell you, but uh I'm not gonna tell you uh why to why to do this, all right? But Damon Sisko wants you to call. Uh where's the number, Stas?
+
+[55:32] Do you have it on the thing? But the number got erased off my phone. Oh, no, you might have it. Hold on. Just a minute.
+
+[55:37] All right, Stas is gonna tell you to dial this number. It's not, it's not unpleasant, it's not, it's not pornographic, it's not gonna charge you any money. Doesn't cost any money. Nastasha's about to read you a telephone number, and when she reads it, I want you to write this number down, and then I want you to call it. 719 266 2837.
+
+[55:55] One more time. 719 266 2837. Have a good week, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[56:21] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwardson Sons, third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. I'm Michael Lameko from Food Talk. You're listening to Herdage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network on Roberta's Pizzery in Bushwig, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. A little bit late today, kind of as normal. Join the studio with uh Nastasha uh the hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:48] How are you doing, Stas? Good. Good. And uh who do we got there in the engineering? We got Jack.
+
+[0:52] And Evan. Hey, Evan. I rushed in so quickly because I was late that uh a lot of you know uh the weather must be changing because I saw a lot of signs of illicit love on the streets walking over here in Bushwick. Do you really? Do you miss do you miss the uh the overnight detritus on the streets of Bushwick now that you've moved to Manhattan?
+
+[1:11] You're moving back to Bushwick? No, bed style. Oh. Well, I noticed that you didn't change your uh your uh Twitter whatever in the hell it's called. Whatever in the hell it's still says Bushwick?
+
+[1:21] Still says Bushwick. Sub slow. But wait, what's illicit love in the streets? Uh well, I'm just assuming that if you have to throw your spence away on the streets that you're not uh, you know, you're not doing anything. Oh, I can.
+
+[1:32] Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Gross. Yeah, real gross.
+
+[1:36] Gross. Uh anything anything good going on, Nastasha? Nope. Anything bad going on? Yeah, nice.
+
+[1:42] Well, nothing to report here. Okay. Uh calling a question is two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Uh Johnny Kirk wrote in.
+
+[1:52] Uh, hey Dave. Uh he called, I guess, last week, uh, Jack, and we just missed him. Uh sorry, just missed the opportunity to call into cooking issues today. My question is about curing bellies for bacon. What is your take on vacuum packaging pork bellies in a dry cure situation?
+
+[2:06] Should I pull a full vacuum on a multi-vax style uh chamber machine? Do anaerobic conditions speed the osmosis and denaturation process? What are the pros and cons? And he gives you uh his cure mix here is uh two pounds of uh kosher salt, uh 16 ounces for that, so I guess two pounds kosher salt, one pound of uh brown sugar, and two ounces of sodium nitrite is his cure mix. Uh thanks for any advice.
+
+[2:35] Okay. So look, uh the the article that I, you know, you there's there's a couple of articles to look at. Okay. One, there's an interesting series of articles on um Spanish uh I you know I uh Iberico style and and other Spanish cured hams uh written by uh Barat, spanning uh the last name Barat, I don't know if it's a man or woman, uh spanning from roughly 2002 to fairly recently, like 2010, 2011, on uh a technique um where they directly thaw frozen uh ham. So a lot of these guys buy frozen product.
+
+[3:10] Uh I guess not for the really expensive stuff, but you know, that there's uh obviously an economic advantage to buying uh frozen product, for instance. Uh you can do it any time of uh year, independent of slaughter. You can um get equal uh weights of hams together, especially if you're uh like a lower quantity producer, you can store them uh until you have uh a batch of similar properties to cure together, etc. etc. Uh and so there's a lot of testing of thawing uh in a brine as opposed to thawing in a fridge and then brining.
+
+[3:39] Uh and you know the results as usual, you know, kind of mixed, but they also test vacuum pulsing. But the one I think you should look at, the article I think you should look at is called Development of a Modified Dry Curing Process for Beef by Hayes, and this is sometime in the in the early uh early 2000s. I think it's like 2004, 2005, something like that. I don't have the year written down. But uh what Hayes tested, Hayes et al.
+
+[4:03] tested uh was um taking uh beef, lean beef mussels to do dry cures on. This is another European study, uh, and uh I think it's UK. Uh and they tested normal dry curing, so so salt. They tested uh salt in a vacuum bag, they tested salt, uh, they tell tested salt in a vacuum tumble operation, and they tested, I shouldn't say vacuum bag, it's not vacuum bag, uh, vacuum tumble and tumble only. Now the interesting thing is is that all of the papers uh on this subject uh cite a bunch of literature saying that vacuum uh the application of vacuum or what they call pulsed vacuum increases the rate of cure penetration or increases the speed.
+
+[4:47] There's a couple things to look at. There's speed, there's also uh evenness, right, of cure throughout the thing. Uh so these, and also they they test things like tenderness, drip loss, all this stuff. Anyway, so uh bunch of studies on this. However, these these folks are are focused primarily on pulse vacuum.
+
+[5:06] And what that means is what they're they're the what they expect to be the uh reason that things happen is that when you apply a vacuum, the meat expands for a variety of reasons. The moisture inside uh starts to vaporize and pushes it apart, and also any air trapped on the inside of the meat will start expanding and push apart uh any veins uh or any any any vessels, I should say, or any air gaps. Now anyone that's used a vacuum machine knows that if you vacuum meat that's warm it it blows up just like a marshmallow does. I've seen you know fish rip themselves apart. I've seen stakes like inflate to you know 50% of their of their size right so then the theory being now that when you uh apply a vacuum like that and the meat expands to whatever degree it does or the air inside expands to whatever degree it does the the insides of the meat are somehow more available to the outside when the air comes back in and the pressure is reapplied that the uh whatever is outside right the exogenous stuff gets injected in now these guys uh who are uh in the beef one are testing a dry cure so not a not a brine and I don't know whether or not their results they they showed not that great a result for uh in terms of increase in uh amount of salt reaching the interior and you know by you know by by association also nitrites because they're also very diffusible uh things um trites not trades and the um so they showed not that uh big of a difference or not not a lot of benefit to doing what they call vacuum pulse alone however uh they're using a dry uh a dry thing and my feeling is is that maybe uh you know it maybe in other words maybe in a wet wet cure application it has more of a more of uh an advantage they showed that tumbling increases any sort of tumbling tumbling and vacuum tumbling increase substantially the uh the rates of penetration and you know the evenness of the cure and whatnot.
+
+[7:01] Now, my feeling is is that what they're saying, their proposed mechanism for why the vacuum works, right? And the reason, by the way, that the things I I said, things expand, A, because they're probably if the meat's not fully chilled, there's going to be uh moisture vaporization because when you apply a vacuum to something, it decreases the boiling temperature, you get a lot of vaporization. You know, you can boil water at room temperature in a vacuum. Anyone that has a vacuum machine knows this. Anyone that doesn't is always shocked and you're like, well, we need boil water.
+
+[7:25] Well, you know, you would you reduce the pressure. As you reduce the pressure, uh, it's easier for water molecules to flash off, to vaporize, and so they do, and so it boils at a lower temperature, and that can cause the expansion of the meat. Anyways, if the actual thing that's going on is that the real benefit of the penetration is only at the moment that the vacuum presses the stuff into it, then a vacuum pulse on a dry cured product is not going to have too much of an effect until a localized brine layer exists on the surface of the meat. Now, this is just speculation on my part. But my feeling is is that A, uh, like until that liquid kind of forms in the dry cure scenario, you're not going to get that much of a benefit from the uh vacuum.
+
+[8:05] Uh but you know, I myself actually have noticed like quite a benefit in in wet and semi-wet th things, right? But uh as the article points out, most of the benefits they're not done by scientific studies, they're done empirically, and that's kind of a way of saying that cooks and you know RD uh folks at at plants know how much vacuum to apply and the fact that it increases or uh you know the the rate of curing it from an empirical standpoint instead of from studies. They just know because they know. Uh so uh my feeling is maybe once it becomes a liquid uh that you know that it's gonna help a lot more. And another thing that's interesting that I hadn't uh thought about in the past is this.
+
+[8:41] Um if it's the pulse that's important, most of the procedures that I saw that these folks were using were single pulsed things. In other words, they're only pulsing the vacuum one time. They're applying they're they're sucking a vacuum, and just by the way, the protocols uh that they're sucking is a 90% vacuum. They're removing I and I don't know whether or not that's for um, they think that's a better vacuum to suck versus what we normally suck in in a chamber vacuum, which is much higher, you know, 98, 99, 99, 9. Uh in other words, so uh, and you know, by the way, just so you know, like old like an old timer set sale uh seller of uh vacuum tumblers I spoke to years ago, like seven, eight years ago, you know, I told him kind of the the vacuums that we were applying uh in in you know in kitchens, and he's like, no, no, no, no.
+
+[9:25] He's like, you need to apply much less vacuum. He he said, uh again, probably not backed up with science from the empirical thing, that if you suck uh too strong a vacuum, that in in in his words, the pull is close back up again. Uh at the time I was like, I don't I don't really understand what the hell, I really don't understand what the hell you're saying. Uh but um and to this day I still really understand what the hell he's saying. But it made sense to him.
+
+[9:49] And what he's really trying to say is, regardless of any studies, he finds that vacuum tumbling works best at um not intense vacuum levels, like in in on the order of 90% of the uh uh air being removed, right? So 10% residual. Uh and that is in fact what these studies uh all run at, a single pulse uh where they maintain 90% uh vacuum, so 10% air remaining, they they maintain that for a period of time and then release back to atmosphere. But if it's the pulsing that does it, why just do it once? When we're doing vacuum infusion of fruits, right?
+
+[10:25] We put it in the bag and then we we suck a vacuum on it, bam, we infuse it, then we suck it, we leave it in the bag because you don't want to volatilize a lot of aroma off, please people. Don't ruin your pri whatever. Anyway. So then you apply another vacuum to the bag, right? And as you do that, uh the bag expands.
+
+[10:39] Why? Because I told you that uh water vapor is going to be formed as the pressure uh reduces. Water vapor forms, the bag inflates again, then you can let the air back in. BAM! You can do it again and again and again.
+
+[10:51] So why pulse just once, Stars? Why just pulse just once? She's like, uh, not only do I not know, I really don't care. I really just don't give a crap. Anyway, but the um, so that's my feeling.
+
+[11:02] So maybe, maybe a multiple pulse uh situation, but go take a look at that article, and I'm I'm still gonna do a little more research to see whether I can figure out whether or not there is um uh a benefit or a lot of articles uh on the uh dry, on on drop pulsed vacuum for dry versus pulse vacuum for wet. Um but you you specifically care about dry, so it's interesting, you know, for for that standpoint. But I didn't get a chance, unfortunately, to go back and read the references. If you go to that paper that I mentioned, which is uh development of modified dry curing process for beef by haze, you can see uh that they um they have a bunch of references for people that do think that vacuuming helps quite a bit, and so you can uh check those out. I didn't have a uh I didn't have time.
+
+[11:45] But I'll read you a little chunk of this uh article just so you have a flavor for the kind of crap I read for you people. Uh the salt content, table one, between the core and outer regions differed with a P of less than 0.001 for all treatments, with the exception of the tumble only treatment, which had similar salt content uh content in the outer and core regions. This result indicated that for the tumble only treatment, there was a more even distribution of cure ingredients in the meat. Comparing core regions only, the salt content for vacuum tumble and tumble only treatments were found to be different to the control. Vacuum tumble and tumble only treatments had the highest salt content for the core region of 3.3 and 3.1%, compared to 2.1% for the control.
+
+[12:22] This result indicated the potential of vacuum tumbling and tumbling only treatments in accelerating the curing process, i.e., rate of diffusion of curing ingredients to the core of the muscle. So the uh oh, and then oh, here you go. Vacuum is known to increase core absorption. Here's a paper you can look up. Solomon et al.
+
+[12:36] from 1980, as well as extraction of salt-soluble proteins, Sharma, Kumar, Nana, and Kumar, two Kumars in one paper, 2002. This is interesting, you know, that in my in Dax's class, right? He's in third grade now. Uh I like Kumar and Kumar. That's my next band.
+
+[12:50] Kumar and Kumar, 2002. Uh so uh he has two, two Sophia uh Lee's in his class. And check this out. You ready for this? They go by, I'm not kidding here.
+
+[13:03] Sophia Lee one and Sophia Lee two. Who the hell wants to be Sophia Lee number two, like player two all the time. It's not like they switch up. It's not like they're like, this week I'm Sophia Lee one, and this time I'm Sophia Lee too. And here's what you want to know in more messed up, Stas?
+
+[13:19] You ready for this? They're not the only two Sophia's in the class. There's a Sophia, uh there's uh another Sophia in the class, so they can't even just go by Sophia one and Sophia two, because there's a Sophia three if you just use the first name. I forget what the what the third Sophia's last name is. But that's a boatload of Sophia's in one.
+
+[13:39] I mean, it's not like it's not like Dax is in a class of 300 kids, and there's like, you know, three Sophia's and two of them miraculously, by the way, unrelated, happen to be Sophia Lee. Uh, you know, at least unrelated far back as Adam. Uh and Eve. Eve, more importantly, I guess. Well, who knows, me?
+
+[13:54] Well, whatever. You know, my you get my point. Not not closely related. So, what the hell? Did you know Sophia was such a popular name right now?
+
+[14:01] No. No, no. Or whatever it is, nine years ago, there was such a popular. No. I don't think I've ever known a Sophia.
+
+[14:06] Have we? No? No. Yeah, maybe I have. I don't know.
+
+[14:08] Uh so anyway, where did that come from? Kumar and Kumar? Oh, God only knows what the hell's wrong with my brain. So uh anyway, so the vacuum tumbling, by the way, if you want to know the uh what's going on there, the theory is is that the beating the crap out of the meat uh well chain not only speeds the penetration of the uh cure to the core, but uh actually um like ridges around and creates more extractable protein, and that's part of what's going on there, so it also affects texture. So, anyway, uh mildly interesting for people that find that sort of thing interesting, I guess.
+
+[14:40] Uh at Clef's wrote in, uh, which I guess hopefully everyone that's listening because that's the kind of crap we talk about all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Stuff's like, uh, I know. Uh at Clef's wrote in, uh, at cooking issues, what is the useful range uh in microliters for micropipettes when doing cocktail work?
+
+[14:55] I know you've mentioned it before, but I can't find it. Okay, so there's a there's a bunch of different so micropipette, as I've said a billion times here, uh you know, in cocktail work, it's one of the few times when weighing by volume is what we do uh as opposed to by weight. I mean, kitchens almost always run on weight b weight basis, you know, if you're normal. Uh they run on weight basis measurements, but in um, you know, typically only water is the thing that translates easily back and forth between weight and volume. Um but in cocktail work, we almost exclusively work on uh on a volume basis for a number of reasons.
+
+[15:29] One, because the most important thing in a cocktail is where the uh where the wash line hits, where the actual drink hits in the side of the glass. You know, I did a I judged a contest once, and the the bartender who was doing the contest, and it was just somewhere else, not in the US, and and the bartender had radically different wash lines. So the two drinks they the guy poured were totally different in the glass. Like one was higher and one was lower. And I was like, holy crap, the wash lines aren't the same.
+
+[15:55] And the guy sitting next to me, who is also from you know, not from here, was like, so what? You believe that? I remember you telling me this a couple of times. Yeah, but I still can't believe it. What would you feel like if you got the short glass and and uh and you know your your whoever you were out with drinking with got the tall glass?
+
+[16:12] They're not good. Yeah, especially if it was champagne, am I right? If you got the short glass of champagne, and that happened to me the other day. I got the short glass of champagne. I was like, what the what?
+
+[16:20] Especially when you pay by the glass, you don't want the short. How much do you hate it when you're paying by the glass and you get the short glass? You're like, go, God. And then you feel obliged to order another one just so you catch up because you know you're splitting the check. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[16:33] Mm-hmm. Anyways, I don't know what the hell got me on that. So the wash lines are different. So that's why you like a lot of things we do, we do by volume. Um also it gets complicated with weights because the densities of our stuff is you know very different, and really what we care about is volume.
+
+[16:46] Also, it's uh, you know, inconvenient uh if you need to measure small volumes to do it by uh weight because you typically lose a lot. So what a micropipette does is it allows you to very accurately, very quickly and very repeatably measure out small volumes of liquids. So, where does this come up? One, it comes up in recipe development, especially when you're working with things that are uh small in quantity, so bitters, tinctures, salt solutions, uh sometimes acids, depending on on what you what you do. But whenever you're doing centrifugation and you're using wine finding agents to um to do clarif to be clarification aids, which is what you know we do.
+
+[17:26] We typically use uh PectinX Ultra SPL, which is almost completely dose insensitive. You can just splash it in by eye, and it doesn't matter as long as you don't add so much that it affects the flavor or the concentration or anything like this. It's it's really fairly dose insensitive. You it's hard to OD on SPL unless you go crazy. SPL is the enzyme that I use to break down the cell walls of fruits and vegetables and olives and whatever.
+
+[17:44] So uh so well, so sell everything. Breaks down pectin, breaks down hemicellulose, breaks down. I don't know, it has some cellulase activity as well, not a lot. Doesn't do lignin, you know, anyway, whatever. So the um so you know that one I don't necessarily need the micropipette for, although some people use it.
+
+[18:04] What I use it for uh every day is um uh Keselsaw and chitosan because wine finding agents that work on um electrostatic charge is their basis for function, right? They're they're they're causing the uh flocking, the agglomeration of uh chart uh opposite charged things, right? Those, if you overdose or underdose, it's useless. You've just ruined everything. So you really want to get an accurate repeatable dose, and you're dealing uh with quantities like two uh grams, two milliliters rather per liter of product.
+
+[18:32] And so uh you need something that can measure in that range. Now, there are different kinds of uh micropipettes and pipettes with uh various degrees of difficulty of use. The ones I use are uh autopipetters that are adjustable. So you can sometimes you get them and they're just a single range. And so you you put, boop, boop, boop, boop, you can only do one thing.
+
+[18:52] The adjustable ones, and the ones I use are by psychologic, uh psylogics, I believe is the name, uh, are pretty awesome, and you buy them in uh a range of things. So the one that I use, and they're specified in microliters, right? The one I use is uh 1,000 microliters, which is one milliliter, all the way up to 5,000 uh microliters, which is five milliliters. Now I found that I very rarely need less than that, less than one mil per pop, and it's extremely accurate there. However, it says explicitly in in the instructions to never turn the adjustment knob, and I think I paid under $100 for the one I have.
+
+[19:29] Or around there. Never turn the adjustment knob past what they want because it's going to ruin the calibration. And also it gets less accurate because the way it works is there's a piston that's very finely graduated. And you you push down until you feel the first stop. That pushes the piston down a measurable amount, and the amount that it's pushed down is dependent upon how you set it.
+
+[19:49] There's a twist where it goes click, click, click, click, click, and you set in exactly how much you want. And it's got one of those old school like speedometer click click click things, which is pretty awesome, or like a tally counter. You push down until you feel the first detente, you stick it into the liquid, you lit release on the knob, it sucks up what you want. You put it uh into the vessel you're gonna push into, you go push down to the detent position, and then boom, past it, and it has an over travel that pushes out the extra, so you don't have anything left, and that's how it gets very high accuracy. Anyways, they specifically say do not turn this sucker below one milliliter or over five uh milliliters.
+
+[20:22] Now I've never turned it over, I've never turned it over five. I have, well, I shouldn't say I did, a bartender once crank this sucker down to half a milliliter, and I was like, oh, you've ruined it, and they didn't. I tested it, I turned it back up to where it was supposed to be, up to like two mils, and it was accurate, pop, boop, boop, boop, boop, and now it goes down to boop, boop, boop, now it goes down to half a milliliter, so it works. But that's the size I recommend. And if you need a different one, if you do very highly accurate work, you can also get one uh that does like I think uh two hundred uh microliters to a thousand, and that'll get almost everything uh you need.
+
+[20:57] I very rarely use the second digit. I really care about milliliters and decimal milliliters, and so you know, the last the last digit, I pffff, you know, I'm I'm basically ignoring it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[21:11] Okay, because it mine reads uh the a single digit for the thousands and then uh of microliters, then uh um a tens digit for tenths uh of well for hundreds rather, and then uh uh another digit for tens. It doesn't read the third digit, at least I don't think it does. I can't in my head it doesn't. And I don't really care if it does anyway. Right?
+
+[21:29] You wanna take a break? Sure. Take a break, come right back with cooking issues. And this one's a song by my friend Herbert Spilington. Today's program has been brought to you by S.
+
+[22:33] Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than four hundred days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty.
+
+[23:02] For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. And oh, welcome back to the cooking issues. So we had a note in from uh, and this it makes sense. Let me see here. Uh at a squiddy.com, and the name of it was a cephalopod.
+
+[23:22] But you know, but cephalopods, for those of you that you know aren't hip to your nomenclature, cephalopods, which means foothead, uh, are uh uh the kind of most advanced molluscs in the world. So we got your you got your squid, you got your uh you know, squids are awesome, right? You got your your octopus, octopi, my personal favorites, by the way, the giant Pacific octopus, baller. Love the giant Pacific octopus. I've said many times, I will say it again, uh the the well, okay.
+
+[23:52] You got your you got your chambered nautilus, you got your cuttlefish, master of camouflage. They're all really good at camouflage. They're like endlessly fascinating uh and and for the most part delicious creatures. I've never had a nautilus. I don't really know what the hell it tastes like or anything.
+
+[24:06] Uh and they're kind of the most, you know, the nautilus in the most primitive kind because they still have their shell and they sit there like, you know, blah blah blah. You like nautiluses? Mm-hmm. They're kind of floating around in that weird shell that's upside down. But um, yeah, the trick is is that uh so cephalopods, extraordinarily smart, but in a way that uh is very hard for us to get uh a grip on because uh their sort of um brain power developed entirely differently from you know i it's entirely different from looking at the way our brain works, for instance, versus the way uh a dog's brain works, because we're you know infinitely closer related right you gotta remember that you know uh you know we split off from uh molluscs uh you know back before the spinal cord was invented you know what I'm saying and so uh you know we're talking about these guys evolved from the same kind of crew that are like clams and things like this right so it's uh you know i.e like almost all of them are big big dumb you know what i mean like I think very few of us have a problem thinking mechanistically about uh clams and muscles whereas you should have a problem thinking mechanistically about the kind of uh brain functioning of or the neural functioning whatever you want to call it of the uh of uh octo an octopus uh anyway and as I've said a zillion times before and we'll say again this time I'll actually get to it before I go off on a tangent uh the problem with them um is that they don't live very long at all.
+
+[25:39] Uh as a group uh cephalopods are short-lived creatures so even you know uh Arctuthis or have you pronounced it the giant squid that uh that they've recently captured on camera you know you're talking uh then you're talking something that is freaking big a freaking big squid is only living for you know couple couple of years like five six years you know what I mean like a uh giant Pacific octopus I think it gets like three to five years out uh you know out of its life and then because as soon as like the woman or whatever you know the the female as soon as she uh lays her eggs and they hatch she goes senile and dies and then uh and doesn't eat by the way the entire time that the that she's fanning her eggs there. And then the uh male, uh, as soon as it does its its its business with the with the ladies, just starts wandering around on the floor of the ocean until it gets eaten apart, goes goes uh it goes senile. Uh so it's uh they're interesting. So th in other words, like the only thing stopping them from either uh killing us and taking over the world, or else uh us uh you know, using them as uh as you know, butlers in little aquariums that can like wheel around uh with joysticks is the fact that they don't they don't live very long. So uh you know clearly uh at Squiddy, a cephalopod has an interest in this because of the Twitter name, but uh he says uh or she.
+
+[26:55] I don't know, because we don't know whether it's uh uh whether anyway. We do have a caller, I just want to let the caller know we'll get uh we should finish this. Alright, we'll get there, we'll get there right there. Okay, so uh he writes lobsters feel pain or something. There's a Washington Post article uh out that just came out uh about it, and it details a lot of the research that's being done uh that I've mentioned a lot of times on pain and no cception, what the difference between pain and no seception is.
+
+[27:17] In other words, how can you measure that an animal feels pain versus just response to noxious stimulus, uh noxious stimuli. And a lot of the work was done in uh hermit crabs and decapod crustaceans, which were completely unrelated to uh cephalopods, but uh the research is being extended into cephalopods, and it's an interesting thing to uh look at. So go take a look at that. Thanks to uh Squiddy for that. Uh caller, you're on the air.
+
+[27:37] Yeah, I've got a question. Um hi to everybody. I've I'm just a new listener, but um I've got a question. I found some old uh corny cigs uh that a farmer had that were like 20 years old. Right.
+
+[27:48] And some of them had one of them was like three quarters full of Mountain Dew. And and it it still held pressure and everything. And I mean I had to blow the pressure off. And so I tasted it and it tasted like Mountain Dew, and I was you know, uh wild hare try to make just a little bit of wine out of this out of this old Mountain Dew, right? So um but but my yeast die.
+
+[28:08] So I was wondering if you knew of any way to remove sodium benzoate from a solution. Yeah, so that's your problem, right there, is that there is yeah, no, I don't know of any way to unpoison the Mountain Dew. Uh I mean specifically that's what they were worried about. You know what I'm saying? Right.
+
+[28:27] Like so yeah, that's the specifically they they had a sugary product and they knew yeast was gonna grow in it, and so they put you know, some preservative probably at that time benzoid into it. So I don't know of any way to thwart that. I can tr I can try to look it up, but I don't know. Well I saw I I I did look it up and I saw that HCl will but then that'll just make it inedible again, right? I mean You mean hydrochloric acid?
+
+[28:53] Well uh wow, that's kinda well how much did they say to add? Well, uh they didn't. They didn't. That was kind of the problem. They said, you know, you can you can precipitate it out with uh with HCL, it should turn to what a salt, I guess, because it's already a salt.
+
+[29:06] But um So you would get so I mean I just don't know I don't know that process. I just didn't know if maybe you you would ever come across something like that. You so you're putting in H C L so presumably you're getting NACL and then uh and then whatever hydrogen benzoid is, right? I don't even know what that is. Are they saying it turns into a gas and floats off?
+
+[29:27] Are they saying it what are they I don't I have no I have I have no clue because uh it was just on a couple homebrew websites and they were like, you know, how do I get rid of sodium benzoate and and the guy just said H C L and you know it did nothing else. So I just yeah, I don't even know what benzoate it is. You know what I mean? I I don't know I don't know the structure of it. Um so you so it and on the website they said that it precipitates out, huh?
+
+[29:52] My guess is that it's it's that the Benzwit is something fairly large compared to normal things, you know what I'm saying? Right. But clearly it's soluble, you know. Right. Right.
+
+[30:04] Yeah I just you know it was just one of those question I I got the kegs last fall and I just I worked with it a little bit with these little one gallon batches and it just never nothing ever took off with it. So I I knew what it was it just was trying to see if I could get around that. Well look if it's if it's HCL right the if HCL it's there's two things that could be going on right it's an acid attack or it's some sort of like you say some sort of precipitation it's going on you're somehow causing you know something Benzwood to precipitate out although I don't really I don't really I don't know the chemistry of it right. If it's an acid attack and you're just and you're just you know destroying the sucker with acid then you can just dope back uh NAOH and you know it'll have a saltier version of and I've done that with uh I've done that with um stocks before now I had problems because I made soap you know what I mean uh with the fats that were in the so stocks but you know you you're not getting any problems with um with excess uh HCL on board you know if you have the ability to to do that but if it's a precipitation thing I don't know it's someone has to know or I can you know I have um I have a bunch of old soda references from uh the the 70s and um seventies and eighties from the old AVI tech series maybe they mentioned something about it and I can I can try to do something. It's an interesting problem um it's an interesting problem how to get rid of the the the Benzwit huh yeah and and uh you know, I'm not even I I don't even know that Mountain Dew wine would be that good.
+
+[31:33] It was just a kind of a curious type thing, you know. Well how's it taste? Well the Mountain Dew tastes fine. It just you know, it just never never started never started working. Has it changed at all?
+
+[31:43] Not r not really. I mean, I couldn't tell that it changed at all. And the guy put it in there in like nineteen ninety four is when he got those kegs. Dang. I know.
+
+[31:52] I it blew my mind that they were still even holding pressure that the uh that that the O rings hadn't gone. Yeah, well they're pretty good. I mean, like probably good. I would bet that I would bet that you should change those O rings. Uh sure.
+
+[32:04] No, no, no. But yeah, yeah, I just kept some of the stuff back, you know. I just I just I just siphoned it out and kept some of it out, you know. Those corny kegs are great, you know what I mean? Oh, they're awesome.
+
+[32:14] Yeah. I bought ten of them, and I mean they're they're they're just super. Do you rem wh how long ago did you buy 'em? Uh last fall, um, like October. Yeah, you know, like it's like been a couple of years now, but like, you know, five, eight, well, tell me how ten years ago when I was buying a lot of them, they were free.
+
+[32:30] You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh during the changeover from premix. And I think a lot depends on what part of the country you're in because uh, you know, the the pre mix post mix happen at different times depending on you know, obviously if your local water is really bad, you tended to stay with uh pre mix a lot of the time. But um or you know, not bad, but not you know, not tasting good, you know.
+
+[32:51] So uh they're they're much more expensive than they than they used to be. It's crazy. Well, I I had heard something, this is just a little aside that that India still uses the corny kegs a whole lot and that the demand over there was pulling was putting the price up. Oh, really? Well, well, first of all, you know, all the home brewers are buying 'em.
+
+[33:10] A lot of the cocktail folks who are doing uh kegging are buying 'em, and I guess, you know, they're being shipped over. But uh it got so bad that I think that they're making them again. So in other words, like the ones that you a lot of the ones that people are buying now aren't actually surplus, you know? They're right, they're new. Yeah.
+
+[33:23] Yeah, you can yeah, you can you can still buy the new ones. I mean, they're they're a whole lot higher, you know. I think I paid like twenty bucks a piece for these things, and you know, I I bought every one that I could. Oh, yeah. And it used to be, you know, the I I I uh I shop uh for a lot of my soda gear at uh Mark Power in Guntersville, Alabama, and uh they used to have them like almost for nothing, just for the price of and they would recondition them.
+
+[33:43] I don't even know how the heck that they were able to sell them, but they stopped selling them a number of years ago, but they're yeah, they're awesome. I've never played around a lot of chefs um nowadays are buying, I think the smaller ones they're really expensive, the three gallon guys because they're doing smaller batches and stuff, but yeah. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask. Was the color changed at all on the Mountain Dew? Well it changed a little bit, but but not really.
+
+[34:03] I mean, you know, not not as much as you would think. And there's actually two kegs that I didn't clean yet, and they're about half full, but I don't know what they're full of. One says one has a tag for uh Pepsi and it's pre-mixed, which I didn't understand. I didn't understand why they would have uh kegged a pre-mix, you know, and shipped it all over the place, you know, with just five gallons worth of with it worth of Pepsi. Well, I mean they probably oh, you mean why they shipped it to you that way instead of venting it?
+
+[34:28] Well no, no, no. Well uh well why it didn't come as as as concentrate and then mixed into the water, but your your comment earlier makes more sense that the water probably is not great and and they wanted to control the water. Yeah, I mean I think a lot of the I mean I I've never you know I never actually worked commercially with pre-mix, but I think that a lot of the houses would show up with the kegs and swap them out. I don't know how much mixing was done in-house, or you know what I'm saying? I think people would bring the five gallon charge stuff and then uh uh and then put it down.
+
+[34:58] I had one more question for you about the Mountain Dew, but it's since left my head. Anyway, well, I'll try and look up for that, and if I can find anything, I'll uh I'll uh I'll we'll talk about uh getting rid of Benzwit and making Mountain Dew wine. That's a that's a hilarious idea. I have to say, it's just just the wild, you know, just came to me, you know. But yeah, I appreciate you answering my question.
+
+[35:18] Uh uh I love the show. I'm just trying to work through the backlog. So thanks for calling in. Dr. You too.
+
+[35:24] That was awesome. Yeah, right? Mountain Dew wine. That's that's like well, you know, uh uh I know what I meant to say. Like uh the what's interesting is sugar sodas are fairly stable, but you guys ever doesn't ever drink diet soda, so she doesn't know.
+
+[35:37] But if you have diet soda, the aspartame can break down into salts and uh it loses its sweetness. So if you've ever had uh even canned soda that's stored at extremely high uh temperatures, like you know, in a in a laundry room uh for a long time, like it can taste weird and salty. So like if you made the wine, it would be very it would be weird because it would be all the sugar would be gone. Interesting idea. Uh speaking of soda, uh Tony Harrien from Brazil.
+
+[36:06] Real quick though, just to finish up the cephalopod stuff. Yeah. On the cephalopodpage.org, you can buy an a lot like a crazy amount of cephalopods as a hobbyist. You mean like uh you mean like different uh like octopus varieties and stuff? Yeah.
+
+[36:22] They're rather difficult to keep, I think. Uh it's crazy. Just this list is insane. Some of them say like deadly, not recommended, but apparently you can still buy it. Well, one of the deadliest uh creatures on a uh on a on a weight basis is the blue ringed octopus.
+
+[36:37] Uh yeah, you know, and they're really pretty. I mean, like look they're they're freaking amazing. Like, you know, they like they change colors. They mean they're awesome. That's the one here.
+
+[36:45] It says one of the most dangerous creatures on earth. Yeah, man. You know? It's like uh but they're very rare to get uh to get stuck by you know, we or you know, hit with one of those. They first of all, they flash, they flash at you when they're pissed.
+
+[36:58] You know what I mean? So that it's not like it's not like you're shaking hands with a blue ring octopus and it and you know all of a sudden it zaps you. But you know, I've I've read a bunch of books on cephalopod behavior because I said like I I like them, and all the researchers, all the octopus researchers, uh will say that they definitely have a like a sense when you're dealing with them that they're dealing with an intelligence, right? That's that the cephalopod, when it when it looks at you is actually looking at you and not just you know some sort of like dumb gaze. And they can perform amazing tasks, uh like you know, so solving uh solving puzzles, doing things, get reaching out of the tank, leave you know to get things, uh undoing jars to get inside of them, things like this.
+
+[37:41] But what's strange is the stuff that they can't do. This is what like when you when you research them, it's uh you it's amazing because they have such intense abilities in some in some ways. Like they're they're like a lot a lot of their neurons have to do with the coloring and texture of their skin. Uh their skin is much more highly tweaked than ours is much more. Uh, but uh they don't have certain things that we would think i uh are completely normal, like uh like the ability to know exactly where their tentacle is in space, because I guess they're they don't have a structure like we have, internal structure, and so they don't have the same proprioception uh kind of uh things that we do.
+
+[38:19] So things that we take for granted, uh they they they have very difficult abilities with things that we would never think that they could do, they can do with these. So it's uh they're yeah, they're fascinating. Love myself some cephalopod. All right. So Tony Harrien wrote in from Brazil.
+
+[38:31] Hello, cooking issues, and the HRN team. Um by the way, uh this fits in nicely with the Mountain Dew because it's a question about soda and premix specifically. Hope everyone is doing well. I've got a question for Dave concerning two very beloved subjects of ours soda and cocktails. I'm designing a cocktails on tap system and was wondering about the tap valves.
+
+[38:49] Dave has mentioned a couple of times about the Ibis Tower slash Becker, which is CM Becker, a corporation valve he uses for uh his soda system. That is true. Uh they can get it from Fox equipment here in the U.S. That is what I was aiming for to dispense the drinks, at least until I looked up the price tag for that tower. Almost $400 for the two faucet tower and $350 for the single on Fox 2X's like Red Fox.
+
+[39:12] Remember Red Fox? Remember Sanford and Sun? Mm-hmm. One of the great theme songs of all time. All right, all right.
+
+[39:18] Uh Fox I'm being told that I can't talk about how awesome the Sanford and Sun theme song is, even though that is an amazing theme song. Uh FoxEquipment 2X's dot com. Wow. Uh that wow is about the price. In fact, my biggest surprise was how much you guys love your soda even more than I do.
+
+[39:33] Or was it eBay Kung Fu? Your no duct tape New Year's resolution from a while back must be tremendously effective. Jokes aside, in my case, uh throwing 95% import tax and shipping to Brazil. You know that? Like people in Brazil when they order stuff from here have to pay like double.
+
+[39:46] Like the tax is like some intense, intense stuff. I don't know how they're allowed to get away with that. Because we don't tax the crap out of Brazilian stuff when it comes here, do we? I don't know. I don't know about it.
+
+[39:55] Uh I could almost buy two thousand two hundred liters of outstanding bottled sparkling water around here. Instead, I was recommended the Perlick 545 PC flow control faucet for much less to help control foaming. Uh and uh you link a homebrew thing here, right? I assume from pictures and schematics that the compensator mechanism is pretty different from the two. Do you believe that the pearlic will fit well for cocktails dispensed from a corny keg system?
+
+[40:19] Could the Ibis really do that much different for this application? And what alternatives could you recommend? Uh, my main concerns, as it they should be, are excessive foaming and loss of carbonation. I appreciate your insights. Keep up the good work, Tony Harrion.
+
+[40:29] Okay, here's the deal. The Ibis Tower with the Becker pre mix on it is expensive because they're taking a pre-mix valve, a nice one, and they're retrofitting it onto a beer tower, and they're charging you an exorbitant rate, and it looks really nice. So you're paying for a lot of chrome, you're paying for the fact that nobody uses these damn things anymore. By the way, the tower is nice because it's got a chilling line in it as well to chill the tower. Uh, because it's you know similar to like a cobra head, but it's called Ibis because it's thinner than the Cobraheads.
+
+[40:58] Anyways, uh it's expensive because of all the chrome and because nobody wants it, right? The problem with soda is uh everybody knows that the um that the soda guns, the ones that they use in uh post mix, suck. We all know they suck, right? The Wonder Bar and all their variants. We all know that they uh they totally rob you of carbonation, that that in general they're not clean enough and they make horrible tasting stuff.
+
+[41:24] Everybody knows this, right? Uh but whenever anyone tries to go back to a single valve dispensing, because that's the way to do it, they always go to the beer style valves, like the one that you recommend. And the problem is this beer is put through a much lower pressure than any of the stuff we're dealing with because it has a lower alcohol content than cocktails do, and it also has less carbonation than either soda does or that cocktails do. So you're never gonna get good results out of a beer uh system with uh well, you're never gonna get very highly carbonated results without foaming out of a beer system. The only choice you have is to get a soda, a pre-mixed soda thing, because they are designed to compensate much larger pressure differences than you can get through uh than or can be compensated through a beer style valve.
+
+[42:12] The good news for you is you don't have to buy the expensive stuff if you don't need the tower. You can go to CM Becker, that's Charles Mary Becker, is the corporation. And by the way, the people who pick up the phone there don't know a freaking thing about it because they happen to make these things. They don't care about it because it's not really good business anymore, but you can go on their website and look up pre-mix valves. And the standard wall mount valves that can be mounted on a piece of stainless steel, right?
+
+[42:38] With a with and they just have a hose attachment on the back, and you take it down to like a quarter or a three-eighths hose and put it through your cold plate, those things will work just as well as the fancy one that I have. They just don't look nice coming out of a deck mounted, sink deck mounted application. For my home application, I require that A, it looked nice because my wife's an architect. B, I'm not using duct tape anymore, remember. And uh C, I need I couldn't wall mount like I had before.
+
+[43:04] I needed to deck mount it. And so to get to have all of that, I needed to go with that expensive system. If you can wall mount, you can get them much less expensive on the order of I think they're like 30 bucks maybe for one of these pre-mix valves and just mount it into the wall, and you can get two, three, four of them uh and and and line them up and they work great. The other thing that you need to realize with cocktails, cocktails foam a lot more, a lot more than soda does. A lot more.
+
+[43:29] Uh, and it's because alcohol has a lower surface tension uh than uh water does, and also it it has uh a higher viscosity. So you're look dealing with a higher viscosity to hold bubbles and a lower surface tension, which it which increases the rate of bubble formation uh in the liquid, and what you have therefore is a nightmare. Also, you have typically for a given level of carbonation uh feeling in your mouth more CO2 in uh alcoholic products, and cocktails are more alcoholic than beer, and then a lot of wines, and so therefore you have excess foaming as well. Uh couple that with the fact that you can never get stuff that cold with a cold plate uh because you're only going down to ice temperatures, and I'm typically serving a good five, six degrees below that when I'm serving cocktails, problems, problems, problems. But to get around it, you want a very long flow so that as something comes out of your keg system, it has a long time to calm down before it comes through the compensator and out of the uh tap, right?
+
+[44:19] And you're not getting as much pressure because you get a pressure uh bigger pressure drop along a long line. But uh also you're gonna want to run through two channels of your cold plate, not one, two channels of your cold plate, so that it has a longer time, it can get colder and it's a lot colder, a good five degrees colder typically, if you run through two versus through one. Running through more than two doesn't really give you an advantage. Another thing you might want to take a look at if you're only running cocktail through it and not regular liquids, is using uh, and it's gonna ruin anything but stainless. Uh it'll ruin the aluminum that most cold plates is made out of eventually.
+
+[44:51] But you could look at using a salt solution, eutectic solution, usually potassium chloride, something like this, depending on the alcohol content you're running through, you might be able to get hyper cold stuff. If you calculate it wrong, you'll freeze your line solid, and you know, it it won't burst the uh at least it has never when I've missed made mistakes, burst my cold plate, but it does suck. And then you have to thaw out the cold plate to get it to work. So, anyways, uh uh because we're we have to get off, right? Well, anyway, so uh hopefully that uh gave you uh some information.
+
+[45:19] Uh next week, uh I was gonna get to uh Kenji had uh written uh on the Twitter about shrimp and baking soda. Maybe we'll have time to talk about that next week. One more question. Oh, yeah, what's that? Because me and Nastasia were talking about this before the show.
+
+[45:31] We were admiring some of the thinly sliced potato chips on the somebody's plate that was eating at Roberta's and we're wondering what your preferences are on potato chips. I like I like thicker. Like my my my thing is my favorite potato She's right. She said Dave's not gonna like those. I know look, I appreciate any well-made product.
+
+[45:49] So, like a thin potato chip that's nicely made, I enjoy. But just for comparison, my favorite potato chips that I've ever had, ever, are the like the actual original Maui ones that you they've never shipped off the island that like when people go to Hawaii and they bring them back in bags. Now, granted, I first had these like twenty years ago, so I don't know whether or not I would still think they're the best things on earth, but my memory of those thick, like you know, Maui kettle, you know, kettle cooked thick potato chips was that they were kind of God's gift to potato chip world, at least at that time of what things I've had. Uh I prefer a thick normal to a ridge, although I like the fact that rid that a poorly done ridgie is better than a poorly done thin chip. You agree with me on this one?
+
+[46:32] I'll agree with you there. Yeah. I think a thin chip is hard to do, so a really good thin chip is probably a thing of beauty. Oh, and by the way, next week I hope to have time to uh discuss Travis Hawkins from last week's actual question, which is pet peeves and faux pas in the kitchen. So tweet on in to at cooking issues or to the Heritage Radio Network for next week's show, your favorite kitchen faux pas, and we will talk to them, for instance, using someone's knife without permission, and we will talk about them on next week's cooking issues.
+
+[47:02] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[47:27] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you late! Late in Bushwick, Brooklyn, but still live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday around noon. Around noon, right? Somewhere around there.
+
+[0:43] We got uh we got What if primetime TV was like at noonish? At noonish. Well, there's a reason that we're never nominated for beard awards. Maybe it's because maybe it's my tardiness. I don't know.
+
+[0:59] Nastash's usually here on time. Jack, you're usually here on time. Just me. It's just me. Just me, you know.
+
+[1:06] J Train sucks. Well, J Train sucks, and what you know, look, not that there's an excuse, but I'm trying to get as much kind of work on thinking about the questions and whatnot beforehand as I can get in uh, you know, beforehand. So I'm pushing it always to the last second. So then if there's any problem with the train at all, I'm root dupe super late like I am today. Uh but we're gonna be joined on the phone, correct?
+
+[1:29] I am with uh yeah, Chris Young of Chef Steps. He was gonna be here in person, but due to a scheduling Cortal U, remember, uh listeners of the show will know that my son Booker take took the word CORTLU, which is a station here on our uh fine subway system, and uh uh repurposed the word to mean cluster, beep beep. And it it suits that purpose quite well, I think, Stas, right? Chris, how are you? I'm doing well.
+
+[1:53] How are you doing this morning, Dave? Doing all right, and I'm kinda uh lucky. You know, another reason I'm late, I spent uh myself uh time armoring this morning and I'm glad you're not in the studio because I heard today is national smack a cook in the groin with a spoon day. That's uh that's an official holiday or just one you made up? Well, I did just make it up, but I imagine that it could be like an official day.
+
+[2:13] It's a back of the spoon, people, not the front. Don't be animals about it. Uh oh, it's yeah, it's an old honored tradition of cooks walking around with a cooking spoon, not one that you're cooking with, and you smack another cook in the with the back of the spoon in the groin. Not hard, people. I find it actually incredibly unpleasant, and yet it happens all the time.
+
+[2:33] You know? Chris, back me up on this. Uh uh I'm I'm actually completely befuddled. What kitchens have you been hanging on? Are you you liars?
+
+[2:43] Liars! You could get fired for that. Uh well, I told you, I don't practice it. I don't practice that. And and you know, it's not it no, it's not really, it's I mean, why?
+
+[2:54] Because it's assault? Yeah, and sexual harassment. Uh oh, it's usually it's yeah, it's not, I don't know. Yeah. As I said, this is why I spent extra time armoring, because I find it unpleasant.
+
+[3:09] I don't like getting capped in the groin. I I re I really want to see a video of a day in the life of uh of Dave Arnold. I think that would be very popular. Oh, I don't know. There is one online.
+
+[3:21] I can't remember who. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, if most of that you'll most anyone saw what Stas and I did uh most days, they'd be like, oh. My life isn't so bad. Alright.
+
+[3:36] Excuse me. Call your questions for Chris Young in two 718497, 2128. That's 718497 2128. But Chris, before we get too serious, actually, you want to do some serious technical crap first? Because uh I had a bunch of people um you know tweet in their kitchen peeves this morning, and I might have some more in uh during the break.
+
+[3:53] I don't know. We'll go over those. Maybe we should hit some questions first, some stuff that I think you might be especially uh good at. Um we had a question in uh from uh here we go. Will Freeman, and if you if you haven't researched this, just tell me.
+
+[4:09] Uh at Rebel Cat underscore one. Uh I want to make a creamer for hot and cold beverages based on oil emulsified with egg and no dairy. How to prevent it breaking? And I I don't know whether they mean by breaking like uh keeping it liquid and stopping it from breaking there, or they mean feathering, you know, what the creamers feather when they go out into uh into uh into coffees and whatnot. Um I will say before I turn you loose on this, uh Chris, I mean you might not have anything to say about it, I don't know, is that it seems to me from like just very preliminary uh research that the secret actually lies into something that I know you Chris work on quite a bit, which is um which is uh salts like citrates and phosphates, uh, which uh because typically these creamers are doped with casein.
+
+[4:55] Uh to to add the and so presumably because they have the casein in them, they need uh the emulsifying salts or whatever you want to call them, melting salts, whatever, citrates, polyphosphates, whatever, uh to keep them from feathering out when they go into sewage. But if it's gonna be literally no dairy, in other words, no casein, then we need to figure out some other kind of creamy looking bulking agent to put into it to give it that uh you know that that milkiness, along with maybe some additional stabilizers other than the less thin and the and the uh and the other uh phospholipid crabs that are in the the egg yolk any thoughts yeah so you know obviously casein would be the go to emulsi I mean what you what you really need here is a good emulsifier system uh you know cream and milk is a bunch of of of butter fat droplets coated in in casein proteins which do a pretty nice job of uh of keeping that emulsion suspended so I'm guessing when he's talking about breaking we're really talking about preventing phase separation while it's liquid remember though he's not he doesn't want any dairy in it at all so we need another substitute for milk potato so if we so you know if you if you can't use caseing um you know my instinct would be to go to a combination you're gonna need some emulsifiers and you're gonna need a homogenizer to to do this and and what I would be looking for are I'd probably go to like sucrocesters. Um I think those will do a pretty in my experience those will do a pretty good job of coating most plant oils and so the way I would do it is I I disperse um some sucrocesters uh which I think the El Boole makes a textural line those are probably readily avail available sucro yeah. Yeah and so that's probably a blend of of different ones. Which is a dumbass name for sucroesters by the way I'm I'm I'm gonna make no comment about uh about El Boole's naming scheme uh on a on a radio show but um I love him I love that I'm just saying that's a dumb name especially in English it sounds like too many other things.
+
+[6:55] Look my my big complaint with any of those products is they don't tell you what exactly is in them. But you know so it's not that they're bad products people. We're not saying anything about the products or the people. I just don't like the name. So I I would start off by taking your your your your oil, whatever you're gonna use, and I would emulsify I would disperse some something like a sucrocester in that.
+
+[7:14] And then I would, under really high shear, or if you have a homogenizer, that would be great. I'd emulsify that into uh your your liquid uh to to form an emulsion. And I wouldn't I don't think lecithin or glyce or some of the other ones would work terribly well. But when I've done uh uh I've done some constructed creams, if we go back to the to the work we did at Modernist Cuisine, uh stuff that didn't get published, there was a lot of good work with sucroesters for constructed cream. So I think that'd be a pretty productive direction to go.
+
+[7:43] If you can use casing, I you your life will be much easier because getting sodium caseinate is much easier than sort of tracking down sucroesters. Right. And so just to kind of uh just to kind of parse out what's going on here for people that you know don't play this kind of game regularly, if you go and just research patent literature on uh creamers, you'll see that in fact they do have mono and diglycerides in them as one of the main um things that's added. How along with less than however they have also casein in their formulation and mono and diglycerides mooy mooy mooy cheaper than sucroester. And so, you know, sucrose sucrocesters are not by any stretch the cheapest of ingredients to use, and that's why in general in food industry they're only used in situations where they're really necessary, not necessarily in in in every situation where they might kick some serious uh butt.
+
+[8:39] Correct me if I'm wrong on that, Chris. Yeah, no, sucroesters are are high end and and and fairly expensive, but they work really well. So um I I can probably be a little more specific here since I'm actually pulling up some of I I I see I was sensible, I put my laptop in front of me. Um and I would be saying you're looking for something like a sucroester with uh what's called an HLB value of around ten, and you're probably looking at about five percent by weight. Um but if you don't have that, something like uh a blend of monoglycerides and less often mm maybe like point two and point two percent uh of both of those blended into your oil, that'll do a pretty good job of stabilizing the mixture.
+
+[9:19] Right. But remember everyone, well we have a caller we're gonna get to when we get back, maybe a short word, because we got a lot to get to on what uh HLB is the balance uh and also on the fact that you know not all less than is made the same. But for right now, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave and Gang and Chris. Um I didn't know Chris would be uh on the show today, and it's a really good surprise.
+
+[9:38] Um I just had a few questions I hope uh to to bust out. Uh my first question is about ultrasonic bath. I just recently picked up a Branson 5510, and it is a dirty, dirty used ultrasonic bath. And I know that Chris does some work with cavitation french fries and stuff, and I wanted to kind of get up to that and I was uh wondering what I would need to uh maybe clean it, uh maybe neutralize some of the nasties. I I love that the ultrasonic bath is dirty.
+
+[10:03] That's the most hilarious thing ever. Yeah. Yeah, Dusty, I picked it up from a shop uh from a specialist who makes dry diaphragm pumps, and he just is a really small niche in California here just doing that. So uh yeah, it's it's super used and dirty. So I was wondering if um what I would see.
+
+[10:23] Uh ultrasonic bath uh used for cleaning things and for other operations that you guys are gonna talk about in a minute. Um the smaller ones that you can buy inexpensively are jewelry cleaners, typically they're sold at. Uh, you know, to home folks. Branson is a manufacturer uh of ones that are in industry and in life sciences, and they also build much larger, more powerful ultrasounds for welding. Tell them how many liters this one's holds so we have an idea of what size.
+
+[10:48] Uh this one's like two and a half gallons, so it's actually kind of big, bigger than the ones that I've seen before, but um still kind of small, I guess. Alright, go. Okay, so you know, so this so this came from somebody just doing like um probably metal cleaning or some sort of parts. You're not gonna have to worry about like getting the Geiger counter out and making sure this this wasn't used for some sort of nefarious radioactive purpose. Um okay.
+
+[11:11] Yeah, that that that that's good news. Um usually what I would do for cleaning this is probably start out uh if you can get some some lye, uh essentially a drain cleaner, I would disperse some of that in water and start off with an alkaline wash, which will help uh which will help uh get some of the what I'm guessing are sort of metal filings and fines off it, and then I would drain that out, switch over to uh an acid, something like myriadic acid, which you can get at Home Depot would be a good choice. And then after that, just wash really well with the detergent. And by the way, lye, if there is some sort of biological contaminant in there, lye will eat it. Yep.
+
+[11:52] Awesome. And so you can you can you can get both of those at at Home Depot, and so you just want to start off with a with a good alkaline wash, then then drain it out, neutralize it with some uh or just just wash it with some water, then go to an acid wash, and after that just detergent. Be careful when you make lie solutions. Um you want to do this one, Dave? No, no, you you go go ahead.
+
+[12:14] Go ahead. Really important order of addition, really, really important. Do not dump your water onto a giant pile of lye. Yeah. It l it gets very hot.
+
+[12:23] Uh also lye like label the hell out of it. I've gotten really badly damaged by unlabeled lye. And um, you know, I like having ly right. If you can get some food grade and you know, do some of the amazing work that you can do with lye in the kitchen as well. Yeah.
+
+[12:41] Uh one thing I'll add, just in case, because I like to kill everything, I finish everything off with a good bleach rinse, let it sit and and then uh and then blast out. You're gonna have a little more is this one of the ones with uh the metal outside or the uh molded plastic outside? It's like the molded, it looks like polypropylene uh cooler kind of material or something. Yeah, that can be a painting. Good bleach wash on that.
+
+[13:03] Yeah. Oh, okay. Also, like if there's weird and crusty stuff, at least mine can be completely disassembled, including removing the seal that seals between the plastic and the stainless steel uh thing that's uh holding it together. You just want to be careful to not dump a bunch of at least the one I have has the uh transducers bonded to the inside of a stainless steel tank on the inside that's then sealed to the underside of the plastic lip, and all of that can be gotten into if there's anything really nasty, but I'd avoid doing that unless you really like doing that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:36] Um awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for that question. Um hopefully I can blow through just another one real quickly. Uh another thing I'll be cleaning in my ultrasonic bath will be uh glassware. And um for the uh a rotovap I was recently able to piece together in the last couple months.
+
+[13:50] It's great for that, by the way. Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna ask, so what detergent, um do you do you buy those detergents that they use uh with the uh ultrasonic bath or do you do you just do like hot water and cavitate it for like you know, twenty, thirty minutes? If you can get some phosphate solutions into the water with a little b uh a little bit of detergent, uh you will get very clean glassware, you know. You know, duh one of the one of the unfortunate things or fortunate depending on how environmentally conscious you are, is we removed phosphates from from dishwasher detergent uh a couple of years back, and uh uh unfortunately phosphates are really good at at uh sort of removing hard water stains and letting the glassware drain and dry very, very clear.
+
+[14:31] So literally some tripolyphosphate, maybe like half a percent dissolved in water is gonna do wonders for cleaning your glassware. Alcanox still has it, doesn't it? Uh probably yeah, there's almost certainly commercial. Uh commercial ones are going to have it. Uh actually espresso cleaner uh essentially will have a good mixture of of citric acid and phosphates.
+
+[14:50] So those would be good choices. But if you just go get like a uh a a consumer dishwashing detergent, it's gone. Awesome. Um thank you. Uh also I recently read head to tail um the article of head to tail dis distillation by Dave, and um I was really intrigued of how he was able to set up his manifold system um and how he had a coil condenser.
+
+[15:09] My question is real quick, is it do is it necessary for me um to get a coil condenser for that setup with the peristaltic pump? What do you have what do you have now? Do you have a cold finger con I mean do you have a cold finger condenser? Yeah, I went with the cold spinger because it was a little cheaper and a little easier with dry ice. Um and I've noticed that the distillant does kind of freeze a little bit um initially, and I think that's what the problem was, right?
+
+[15:29] Is that it it wouldn't drip drip down at like uh at a good rate. I started off life with a uh with a coil condenser and then moved to a cold finger condenser, not for reasons of economy, but for reasons uh that I I couldn't distill alcohol in uh in a commercial environment uh without endangering you know my partner's liquor license, which is kind of not right. And I I wanted a way to do it legally and to to effectively distill some of the flavors that we want uh in water and not have them get totally you know just ripped out with the vacuum, even before you can taste it the first time, you need to have an extremely high temperature delta between the distillation temperature and the condensing temperature. And so I moved to the cold finger so that I could do that. Dry ice is really dry ice is so powerful that one of the problems that you're gonna note when you're using dry ice in a cold finger condenser is really thick.
+
+[16:25] Yeah, and uh you you're gonna like the the actual uh vacuum, the vacuum takeoff area tends to get uh clogged with ice crystals more than when you use, let's say, liquid nitrogen. So I found that actually distillation using dry ice as the cooling source is vastly cheaper uh and more efficient than using liquid nitrogen because liquid nitrogen is relatively uh has relatively low amount of chilling power compared to dry ice on a pound per pound basis. But um I find that it's vastly easier uh to use because once your uh vacuum um once your vacuum column freezes, once you no longer can suck a vacuum because of ice crystal occlusion in the lines, you're done. Uh and so uh I found that happened a lot. So you need to be really careful when you're starting a distillation with dry ice that before you add dry ice to your uh condenser, that you suck a partial vacuum on the cold finger.
+
+[17:22] And you do that so that you don't have a lot of moisture from the atmosphere condensing up near the the top of the condenser, which is where the the vacuum takeoff port is, which gets clogged very easily. So you want to suck a partial vacuum, not enough to do any major distillation, right? Then you want to add uh your dry ice and your alcohol, let it cool down. Then you want to start your your actual hardcore primary distillation. And you need to be sure that you don't boil over because if you boil over and you have to break your system to clean it before you continue your distillation, then all hell breaks loose, especially with the with the dry ice.
+
+[17:57] Takes forever to warm the condenser back up, and it's a huge pain in the butt. Now you can get around that by using a bump flask. Now none of this is none of this has answered your actual or fritted. I actually think fritted is better than a bump flask, but very few people use the fritted uh inserts between the uh in the um in the what's it called in the vapor duct. But can you can you use a bump strap on your uh the beaker flask that you have?
+
+[18:17] Because I actually picked up that same beaker flask, but the whole thing seems super long rotating and it it's wobbling a little bit. Yeah, the beaker flask has issues, you have to be extremely careful with the beaker beaker flask. Uh they're prone to failure. So what we're talking about here, folks, is there's a uh the fla a beaker flask allows you to open and close a beaker so that you can uh literally put your fist inside of where the product is, and it's fantastic if you're gonna dry something out and makes it a lot easier to clean. The issues with the beaker flask are uh that um they are relatively slow to ramp up and down temperature-wise, because the glass is thicker, and the seal where the beaker itself is tends to get wonky with time.
+
+[18:54] So you want to make sure you want to run a really good vacuum test dry before you do anything to make sure that you can get the sucker down to the vacuum levels you need. Um but j just to answer your and yes, you can use a bump flask with that, it'll all hold itself together, but it becomes more precarious if some knucklehead walks up and goes, what's this and hits it with their hand, you know what I mean? Uh which it happens, believe me. Uh but what you um your at to your first question, you can do some fractionation um when you have a system like that, but a large amount of stuff is frozen onto the side of your condenser, and so you can't really do accurate fractionation with uh that kind of a setup. What you can do, it's a huge pain in the ass, but you can use a eutectic uh salt mixture and you can you can hit a temperature somewhere closer to like minus twenty C, something there, and there you can do some really hardcore good fractionation, but it's just a lot more difficult to maintain uh temperatures, uh, especially because the actual volume of that uh condenser is quite low.
+
+[19:59] So you'd be better off uh maintaining something. You can buy a and you have to run a condenser colder for a given level of separation because the surface area is not as great as a coil. All right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can buy slash jerry rig uh something that allows you to just pump cold stuff into your cold finger and siphon it out.
+
+[20:19] So you can sit there and just with a thermometer or a circulator, keep a uh uh an alcohol bath uh or a glycol bath at like minus twenty and then use a pump siphon system to constantly refresh the cold finger. And you can do that for like thirty bucks. Especially if you already have a circulator. Wow, that's good news. Uh that is great.
+
+[20:40] That's great. Uh then my sorry, my next question is the the the con condensation, is that on the outside of the condenser? Because remember it's important for it to be two thirds up the way the condenser, and I can't really see it on the cold finger. Um are you looking for the condensation on the outside of the condenser if I do? Yeah, well, you look for both.
+
+[20:55] It depends on what you're doing. In a in a in a in a in a cold finger, uh it most of the time when you're doing distillation, it's much easier to see a uh water vapor line than an alcohol vapor line, but you're looking for uh condensation on the glass itself on the outside, and in a coil condenser, you're looking for the drip lines where the drips are starting on the coil coming down. And you can kind of see where the melt zones are in a uh in a in a coal finger condenser to find out if you're melting very high up, it means you're losing temperature and you're and you're just in your your condensation line is too high. You'll just get a feel for it uh over time. Another really good way, this is why dry ice is problematic because it tends to freeze everything up and make it things difficult to see.
+
+[21:38] But uh if you just put the like the two back the back of your fingers against or the back of your hand against the um uh against the outside glass and feel up and down, you can get a feel for where the line is by temp. That makes sense. Yeah. If if the condenser itself gets too hot, I've noticed it it seems like it's redistilling near the vapor duct, and a little puddle is forming. I don't think I'm bumping.
+
+[22:00] I might I might be bumping a little bit, but um, I think it is that possible for if like the outside of the condenser feels too warm, then you'll get um um that problem. Well, you should melt off the tip. The tip of the cold finger on the inside should be liquid at all times when you're distilling. Oh, okay. Um and to do that, would you have to use like 200 truth alcohol by chance?
+
+[22:21] No, water. And it the fact of the matter is is that you're you're it takes so much energy, so much energy to recondense steam that almost no there's no coolant that is powerful enough at full distillation rates to keep solid ice at the tip of a coal finger that I've used. Oh, I see. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
+
+[22:42] Well, thanks so much. Sorry for hogging up the time. Uh I really love Chef's Depths and you're doing some great work, Chris. Um Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you guys so much.
+
+[22:49] Thanks. Fantastic, thank you. Uh all right, so back really quickly, uh before we take a break, which we should do. Uh let's just give 'em a quick thing on uh hydrophobic, uh lipophobic uh or philical how are balance and uh the difference in less less lessithins go. Uh the the simple idea is a hydrophobic lipophilic balance is just a measurement of how much more a particular emulsifier prefers to be in what we'll call the oil phase versus the water phase or the aqueous phase.
+
+[23:18] And depending on what you're trying to emulsify, you often wanted emulsifier to be more in oil or more in water. And there are two forms of lecithin. You're usually deoiled and oiled lecithin, and they have very, very different uh hydrophobic lipophilic balances. Um trying to remember the numbers off my head, you you might you seem to you seem to retain numbers much better than I do. Uh no, because I tend not to I mean like I tend not to use them so much, so I never really grain them into my into my head, but any supplier of repute will tell you the number.
+
+[23:50] Yeah, and and what uh within it, if you start really calling around, you'll find out that they can be custom tailored a lot. In fact, I believe there's a whole thread uh on HLB values and lecithin on the Chef Steps Forum, um, which is a much better and and more reliable source of information than than my brain off the top of my head. The main thing to know is that not all lecithins are created equal and assuming that you can substitute them from one recipe to another uh isn't necessarily gonna work if you don't really have a good idea of what the HLB value was of the particular lecithin being used. And that goes for any of these kind of ingredients that are I don't know, there there's not really a good word for these ingredients. I'm gonna call them highly tweaked ingredients.
+
+[24:32] Sure, technical ingredients. Yeah, technical, that's a good one. Technical ingredients. Any one of these technical ingredients tends to be highly tweaked out, and one, just because they share the same name as another doesn't mean they perform in the same way as another. And the the analogy I always used to use is that yeah pretty much like flowers will all kind of work the same when you're thickening a sauce because you're using really blunt blunt instrument type of functionality when you're doing that.
+
+[24:58] But most of the work that we're doing with these technical ingredients, much more like scalpel work. And for that you really need to know exactly what is going on. Sure and and I suppose I should actually be a little more useful as I think about this. So I sort of skipped over this but you know the HLB range runs from zero to eighteen. And if you're doing a water dispersed into oil emulsion you're generally going to be looking for an emuls uh emulsifier with an HLB value of something like four to maybe five or six and if you're trying to do an oil and water emulsion you really want something that's more like eight to eighteen.
+
+[25:30] And so lecithins uh your your your oiled lecithins tend to have uh an HLB value of I think it's like nine is is a pretty common one and that makes it a pretty good for oil and water emulsion but not very good for a water and oil emulsion. If you were to use a de-oiled lecithin you'd probably find one with an HLB of five. Yeah I mean that that's what's interesting about lecithins and why they really don't uh work one to the other to substitute back and forth because they straddle the line and they could be on either side of that line which is uh and you know it's like it's like uh for those of you that care about this stuff it's like low acyl and high acyl gel and they're both gel-in but they couldn't have radic they couldn't have more different textures I mean you could not have two more different textures in high acyl and low acyl gel in anyway let's take let's take a quick commercial break. We're right back with Chris Young from Chef Stops. Today's program has been brought to you by S.
+
+[26:51] Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty.
+
+[27:21] For more information, visit www.surrifarms.com. Oh yeah, back with cooking issues and Chris Young. Chris, we got another caller with a question. Caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, this is uh Judah from Maryland.
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+[27:33] How are you? Doing all right. Hi, Judah. Uh so I actually have a very quick and probably simple question uh about pressure cooker mechanics. Uh and and I didn't realize Chris was gonna be on the show today, but it's about one of the recipes from uh Myers Cuisine at home.
+
+[27:47] The uh so I will say that uh I I was not involved in the recipe development for Mono's cuisine at home. I'd left to start Chef Steps by then, but go on. Oh okay. All right. Well, uh, I'm sure you probably help anyways.
+
+[27:59] Um so a big crowd favorite is the uh the buffalo wings, the uh chicken wings with the buffalo oil. Or the buffalo sauce, I'm sorry. And um in that recipe, so there's two variations. Either you could do it in a pressure cooker, you know, in tanning jars, or they say you could just simmer it uh all the ingredients on a stove um in oil for about half an hour. So the differential is they they say uh full pressure uh at ten minutes for ten minutes uh in the in the jars, or on the stove top, you know, for a half hour.
+
+[28:32] So I it just got me wondering like you're cooking the oil on the stove. Um I'm sure that the the temperature is probably close to around two fifty at low, you know, low heat on the stove. Um so what's going on in inside the pressure cooker that's actually shortening would be shortening. Oh Chris, I know you're itching to answer this one. I can feel you over the phone.
+
+[28:52] Oh, I I'm I'm I'm gonna try not to crawl out of my skin. Um so there's there's a few things. The first thing to realize is it really doesn't matter very much what your oil temperature is on the stove. Uh presuming you're at reasonable atmospheric pressure around sea level, your food's filled with a bunch of water, those chicken wings, and so it can't be hotter than two hundred and twelve degrees Fahrenheit, a hundred degrees Celsius, uh at normal atmospheric pressure, because until all the water is gone, you're stuck at the boiling point. The hotter the oil, the faster the water will be evaporated from the food, but that's all that changes is the core temperature doesn't get any hotter.
+
+[29:28] Pressure cookers allow you to raise the boiling point of the water, which means you can actually get the core temperature of the food higher because as you raise the pressure, boiling point goes up, just like as you decrease pressure, boiling point goes down. And so the the basic rule of thumb I tend to carry around is you're trying to convert collagen into tender gelatin. And let me let me just uh correct you real quick. So this is for the for the um the spiced oil that goes into the the buffalo sauce, not for the actual wings. Oh, not for the actual problem, not for the actual thing.
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+[29:58] Okay, so what in any if there's any liquid in the products at all, the only way to alter the temperature on the inside of that product to accelerate any processes is by applying pressure. Right. So it's a lot of onion and a lot of garlic. So um there's there's a reasonable amount of water in those. Wait, do they change the amount of onion and garlic based on which technique you use?
+
+[30:18] No, no, no. They just change the time. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah.
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+[30:26] So I've tried it both ways. I mean, it's it's a similar product uh both times, but you would you suggest like bumping up the onion when you're doing the pressure cooker? I mean, like the problem with bulking onion is you bulk the problem with bulking onion in a pressure cooked recipe, which I do on a regular basis, is that you're adding a lot of extra water to it because you're not getting rid of the water in a pressure cooking situation, but pressure cooking radically uh lessens the characteristic flavors of onion and leaves more of the of a kind of standard sweet root vegetable flavor to them. Is that your experience as well, Chris? Yeah, that tends to be that's a pretty good description of it.
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+[31:04] Yeah. Which I like for some things. Like I I make a pizza sauce, it's half garlic, half oil, and I do it by pressure cooking. Um, you know, um and I, you know, but I found that for instance, I you know, I I I like combinations of pressure cooked onions to for bulk and regular cooked onions when I actually want onion flavors like, for instance, onion soup. Um, uh there's there's going to be another difference you ha you have going on here.
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+[31:34] So uh I I don't think there's a terribly simple explanation. I think uh I so I uh now that I understand the question, you're sort of it'd be nice if there was a s a simple answer. I think one of the factors that's going on is inside a pressure cooker you're in a semi sealed environment. That means some of your volatiles are not being vented as rapidly as they would be on a stove top, and you're going to tend to retain more of those in the oil uh than you than you would in a in a stovetop. So that would be certainly one of the reasons I think you get to a similar product faster.
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+[32:05] Uh Dave, you have any y you're the you're the distillation expert. I felt I was like I was listening to Walter White a few minutes ago. Uh yeah. Well I should end so well as Walter White, just kidding. I just saw the last one.
+
+[32:16] Whatever. Anyway, don't want to I don't want to ruin that for anyone. But um the uh uh yeah, and I mean look, for years I've also worried about pressure cookers that vent. Presumably there's no real reason other than uh volatiles could could be why uh the venting's an issue, which is why I thought, you know, your original idea, Chris, of putting things in jars was kind of a genius idea. Mm-hmm.
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+[32:37] Aside from the just the preservation standpoint. Yeah, so and and so you know, there's no question you're retaining more volatiles when you open the pressure cooker, I imagine you get a really a really potent sulfurous aroma. Well, no, you that stuff is really destroyed in pressure cooking. And I I emailed uh Block, the guy who wrote the garlic and alliums book, and he you know, about this and about like what's kind of going on and there is some research on it, but he referred me to someone who could actually do the the the the a chemical analysis of it. But they wanted to do it for money and I didn't really have the money.
+
+[33:10] They were gonna do it on a per sample basis. Because in in normal cooking, right, you inactivate the uh the enzymatic pathway to convert um, you know, the non pungent precursors to the pungent uh, you know volatile stuff. Yeah, sure. Uh and I forget which it is, Alicinda, Alan, whatever it is. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:30] Uh uh and they're all they're different for the different alliums. And but if you do a normal cook on something and then blend in uncooked allium, those enzymes will still act on the precursors that are still there and create pungency. Whereas in pressure cooked products, that's not the case. In pressure cooked product, addition of fresh enzyme doesn't convert all of the stuff to the pungent. So there's something, and sulfur chemistry is incredibly complicated anyway.
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+[33:56] And so there's something going on there that I think is only uh empirically understood, let's say. That means like cooks know it, but they're but I don't know that anyone knows exactly what's getting busted into what in a pressure cooker with um with onions and garlic and leeks. I just know that it's it's complicated and that the that the rate and nature of the change is not necessarily linear with time. So I know if I want to completely obliterate those things, I push them for 20 minutes. So maybe 10 minutes is the upper limit where you can retain some of the original character of the of the of the alliums.
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+[34:29] I don't know, you know. It's actually an interesting question. The way that recipe would have been developed literally was just very empirical. Try things and and and see what sort of gives a close approximation. Okay.
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+[34:44] Okay, sorry we don't have a better answer. No, uh it's mainly just about the cooking times, but uh yeah, it was uh interesting to hear about onions as well. Cool. All right, thanks, guys. Thanks a lot.
+
+[34:54] Chris, I got another one for you. J.E. Con writes in on the Twitter I want to give my hot sauce a real fermented sauce, by the way, not just a pepper puree, uh, some heft. Should I use modified starch or xanthan and why? Or something else.
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+[35:09] Uh I added that. Or something else, Dave added. Um it it depends on how much heft. If it's just a little bit more body, it's hard to beat Xanthan for convenience. Um I'm generally not a big fan of a lot of modified starches.
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+[35:22] They tend to really sort of dull and round out the flare flavor. My personal preference would be go to a gel an based fluid gel because you can really change the the the body to and dial it into whatever you want without making it sort of gloopy or slimy or or cloying, um, which tends to be a problem with xanthan or and starch. You you agree with that, Dave? You've you've done a lot of this. Yeah, yeah.
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+[35:43] The only issue you gotta remember with uh gel an, you'll probably have to make the like a stiff gel-an fluid gel like water based. I've had difficulty getting gel an to set in extremely high uh uh like ionic situations like kimchi, for instance. I tried a bunch of different kimchies and I couldn't get it to set right. So have you been able to do it with Agar? Which usually is a little more tolerant?
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+[36:07] Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I was I was developing it for uh a gel an recipe, which is why I kept on trying it with gel-an. Uh so I never tried it with with Agar. Probably Agar would be a lot more tolerant. I don't know about the long term stability of an agar fluid gel versus gel-an, though.
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+[36:22] I would I would guess that gel an would be more stable in the long run. Gel-d be better, and I I suspect you could mean you're right, especially when you have lots of salts around things can get complicated, but usually not something that you can't solve with a little bit of sodium hexametaphosphate. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
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+[36:39] That would be my voice, my choice. But if if you just need a little bit more body uh Xanthan, it's easy. All right. I'm gonna here's what we're gonna have to do because we're gonna run out of time. I'm gonna rip through this next question, and then we're gonna should we do the pet peeves first?
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+[36:52] Pet peeves first? Sure. I like pet peeves. Alright, pet peace. I asked uh last week, someone asked us last week about pet peeves, right?
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+[36:58] And oh, before that, I want to give a shout out. Aaron Morgan wrote in about last week what's going on to get we had a qua a caller in last week who had a bunch of Mountain Dew that was like 20 years old, wanted to make it into Mountain Dew wine, needed to get rid of the benzoate uh and was told to add HCL to it to get rid of it, but I didn't know what the reaction was. And Aaron Morgan wrote in on the Twitter HCL plus sodium benzoate equals NACL plus benzoic acid, which is a solid at room temperature, it can be filtered out on filter paper. Thanks, Aaron, for that. Uh and then uh we had a question what are some good kitchen peeves?
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+[37:27] And so these are the ones we'll wrote in uh that were written in uh this morning and before, and we'll just go over them Chris, see what we think here. Uh Joshua Galliano, uh the cooking kid, writes in uh towels on shoulders of cooks, not courtesy wiping bottles after use, especially of honey or molasses. What do you think? Uh uh misuse of kitchen side towels just completely drives me nuts. They're they're filthy.
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+[37:49] They should be banned from the kitchen. Yeah, well, well, so date David uh Shopik wrote in, why all the hate for the towels? And then Joshua wrote back, if the towel's dirty, a guest can see it instantly. If they're plating food, filth from the towel, filth from the towel can get in the food. Accurate.
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+[38:04] Uh Brandon uh um Baltzley wrote in, I think my biggest one is when cooks try to show other cooks who has a bigger peep in very passive aggressive ways. What do you think about that? Um, those don't tend to be the kinds of kitchens I do well in. Yeah, yeah. And he also uh added, uh hire someone with clean fingernails and no resume before someone with dirty ones that has done a season at El Bully, the bully.
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+[38:26] Uh yeah, what do you think? Agree? Uh always also added, uh, does not appreciate people drinking out of delis. I think he means what I call quartz. Uh calling people you work with closely, chef, and wearing aprons to the washroom.
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+[38:39] Never wear freaking a aprons to the washroom, but I have to say that I uh even at home sometimes I drink out of quartz. But I don't know. What what are your thoughts on the hating of drinking out of quartz? Uh I I'm I I'll use whatever vessel suits the purpose. So deli cups are fine by me.
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+[38:53] I mean, what what I always heard was the reason uh to drink out of quart containers is that you could tell the DOH when they showed up that you that that was a cooking ingredient and that they weren't drinking anything. Oh, that's interesting. No, I've never I've never heard that one before. I mean, that's what I was always told is that you know, if you have a cup on the counter, you're obviously drinking in the kitchen. If you have something that's there that's in something that is a cooking storage vessel, then perhaps you are not drinking it.
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+[39:20] Uh that I'll buy that. That's plausible. Yeah. Deborah Reed wrote in seeing a cook in whites on public transmit tra uh public transit. Oh my goodness, don't ever do that.
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+[39:30] I hate seeing people outside of the kitchen wearing their cooking stuff. It's the same as seeing somebody on the streets in scrubs from a hospital. Like what are you doing? The whole point I was just gonna say this. I drive past the University of Washington hospital every day on my way to Chef Steps, and chef step chef whites are bad enough, but to see people like going to work in their scrubs outside is just like mind-boggling.
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+[39:53] No, yeah. These are professional uniforms of cleanliness. To have them outside where it's known filthy, I don't even care whether it's real filth or not. This is a game of perception, people. Perception.
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+[40:06] Which is why you also shouldn't be smoking outside uh in your in your uniform or any of that stuff. In my in my opinion. My opinion. Uh John Rivet writes in, not covering a pot of sauce that is clearly spattering all over the stove and then leaving the mess. That sucks.
+
+[40:21] Right? Yeah, no, no, no. You're gonna become a hated person if you do that. Oh, yeah, to completely hate it. Well, so some of these are like pro kitchen and some are home kitchen.
+
+[40:30] I think that applies to any anything, right? Yeah, I just think I just think clean up as you go and don't leave a mess for somebody else. That's just that's just good etiquette. Yeah. You know, you weren't raised by a pack of wolves, people.
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+[40:39] Well, maybe. We don't know. Uh Brian Garrick writes in one following recipes blindly without any thought, unless your chef tells you to. Uh and read it through, people, uh, read it through people and think before cooking. Two, pre-ground pepper.
+
+[40:51] Uh, you know what? I had to use pre-ground pepper in a demo once because I needed pepper and it's the only thing they had, and someone saw that it was pre-ground pepper and called me freaking out on it. I'm still embarrassed to this day because I detest pre-ground pepper. Well, so i i when I was at the Fat Duck, we had to right before service because Heston wanted wanted ground pepper of different sizes. It all had to be ground fresh.
+
+[41:13] Uh, this was on my station, and I had to fill ramkins with fine sifted, medium, coarse, all had to be ground fresh, and they had to be changed every hour uh, you know, through throughout service. What a complete nightmare, but it makes a massive difference. Old pepper just tastes old. Yeah, old pepper. That's my next band.
+
+[41:29] Uh Matt Wood write in tongs or any other dirty utensil hanging off apron strings, a la Wyatt ERP. And I think that fits in uh a lot with the with the side towels, right? What is it, a utility belt? Yeah. Oh, I like that idea though.
+
+[41:41] Oh my god. Have you ever seen anyone in the real life wearing that butcher belt with the knife holders in it? I have actually in Portland, but then it's Portland, right? Oh, I'm I'm not gonna touch that one. Uh Seattle versus Portland.
+
+[41:56] Hashtag whatever you call that crap. Uh Omeed uh Tavale writes in anyone who steps into the kitchen wearing cologne or perfume and going for a smoke break in apron whites. We already hit that that, but yeah, don't like how are you supposed to smell food if you yourself smell like flowers and like whatever else, musk. Just think about some sort. It's basically just chemical weapon assault by your colleagues.
+
+[42:18] Yeah, I hate it. And i I don't even I like salmon and bacon, but I don't really like handling it that much and cooking with I don't like the act of cooking with it because I know that it's gonna be hard to get that off my hands, and I'm gonna think that everything else has that scent in it for a couple of hours, no matter how much I scrub. Yeah, well, worry about I I I don't know, I don't get perfume in the kitchen. Uh Stas hates that super big, right, Stas? Yes.
+
+[42:38] Yes. Uh Scott Malloy writes in leaving labels on deli containers. Uh that sucks. Cooks afraid to wash their own dishes, and people uh who go down because they're afraid to ask for help. Going down, by the way, meaning uh you're in the weeds, you're cooking a lot, and your station crashes because you're afraid to ask for help because you were just too damn proud or too damn afraid.
+
+[42:57] What do you think about that? Why would you do that to everyone? You know, the i i you know, this is a this has always been a big mantra. You know, cooking at a professional level is all about teamwork. So, you know, either somebody on the team or or they have no business being in that kitchen.
+
+[43:11] Right. Because if you're proud and you let yourself crash because you're too proud to ask for help, it shafts every single person. It only takes one person to mess up the whole meal, which is one of the weird things about cooking. Uh Henry Prontniki writes in, uh, how about those that make the rules and are supposed to enforce them being the first to break them? Ooh.
+
+[43:30] Nobody likes that. Uh Ian Bowden wrote in, whistling drives me nuts. It's just it's as distracting as hell, and there's an old French superstition about it as well. A long time ago, my mentor would smack me in the back of the head for whistling or anything for that matter. What do you think about the whistling?
+
+[43:44] Uh so my co founder, Grant Curly is a world class whistler, so uh we we've become quite taken with that actually. So it's more like a soundtrack. Yeah, it's just it's uh sort of just cadence for the day. And we need to get Ian and Grant in a room and have this like ha we need to have this out. We need it this needs to be had out.
+
+[44:01] Uh as long as we broadcast that I'm I'm on board. Sure. Sarah uh Sarah Balzac writes in when someone uh tastes your food and tells you it should be something uh other than what you made it that would change it entirely. Like, why don't you make your hard candy more chewy? Or you should make the medium well steak more well done.
+
+[44:15] You hate that stuff? I hate that. I hate that stuff. It's like, yeah, that's bad. I mean, like that's obviously bad.
+
+[44:20] Uh Shuna Leiden wrote in disorganized chefs, cavalier cooks, smoking outside in whites, aprons in the toilet. Ooh, I hate that. Uh CDP without prep lists and not labeling to good list, pro kitchen list, right? Yeah. Jeremiah Bullfrog uh wrote in wet salt.
+
+[44:36] I also hate the wet salt, which is why I use saline solution at the bar. And ideas and food chimed in also dirty salt in response. What are your thoughts on the uh on the salt getting wet and dirty there? Um I'm I'm actually sort of wondering what they mean by dirty salt, like you know, filthy salt from just handling that. Yeah, I think like Schmutz.
+
+[44:53] You know how like you know you were you were you were sprinkling on meat and then flipping the meat and that little particle of meat on your finger got in the salt and it's sitting there in the kosher salt. Look, this is easy. Dirty is dirty. Yeah, yeah. And bad.
+
+[45:05] It's bad. Uh John uh John Derragon wrote in not having cold food on cold plates, hot food on hot plates, unlabeled food containers in the fridge, and not turning pot handles sideways so that you bump into them when you walk past, and people who store knives in drawers with other things. Hate? Duh. Yeah, all right, okay.
+
+[45:22] Uh Landon McDowell writes in cold ketchup. Yeah, why put your you're just wasting fridge space with your cold ketchup? Ketchup don't go bad. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
+
+[45:30] I hadn't thought of that. I don't like cold maple syrup either, although I understand the merits of keeping it in the fridge to stop mold growth. Although mine never grows mold because I use it that fast. Yeah, but that's why we have microwaves, so we can warm it up. Right.
+
+[45:41] Uh but yeah, exactly. Uh Elliot Papanau wrote in, I do not like the crust between the handle and blade of a spatula. I don't like dirty faucet knots, which is why I use foot pedals. And I don't like containers that are put away that are not fully dry. I'll add to that, I don't like it when people use containers without smelling them first, or any vessel you put food in, smell it first.
+
+[45:59] I hate that when people don't do that. You know how much good food and and liquor is ruined by not sniffing the freaking container before you use it? Uh Jack the horse, brushing crumbs on the floor and not replacing that damn thing you emptied. What do you think? Obviously.
+
+[46:14] You hate that. Yeah, yeah, that's it just that's just being an ass. Yeah. B. Ross right in.
+
+[46:18] Any stainless steel on cutting boards, it freaks me out thanks to at Chef Keller and my uh friends uh at my stage at Per se. What's the thing with uh stainless on cutting boards? You know about that one? No, I've never heard that one. That that's a thing.
+
+[46:29] All right, B. Ross, send me more information. I must know what this is all about. Uh and kitchen l not having kitchen labels. Label everything.
+
+[46:36] Use just enough tape and not too much pound tape abuse. Uh Pat Sheeran wrote in uh pots on cutting boards. Hates that. Cooks who are late, uh barely organ uh barely on time, un an unorganized dish area, uh, and uh uh uh non condensed cooler. This is uh I I didn't get the uh paragraphination in here, unfortunately.
+
+[46:56] Non condensed cooler, uh also no notes in their notebooks. Hates that. Pat Sheeran, good man out in Chicago. Well uh so I'm I I got one there. He had the pots on the cutting board.
+
+[47:05] You know, you know what I see a lot, especially home cooks, uh grocery bags on the cutting board. That's filthy. Yeah, you put them in the you put them in your car, you drive them around, then you come home and put them right on the cutting board. Yeah. Well, and the pots also like leave vis visible filth.
+
+[47:21] Visible filth. And you know, and they burn them. People, people, yeah, you know what they used to do at the SCI? They used to stick because the students didn't use the flat tops that often. They would stick plastic bottles of ingredients, sometimes oil, on flat tops.
+
+[47:29] On flat tops. What is that? An IQ test? Flat tops. Hey, while I was working there, it happened more than three times.
+
+[47:42] Caught fire more than twice. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And uh Brandon uh Balsley wrote in one more time.
+
+[47:52] Uh I'm guilty of at least at least three of these things that have been mentioned at all times. Uh we're gonna have to uh head out. Thanks so much uh uh for uh Chris uh at cooking uh cooking issues at Chef Steps. Uh we love you. Come back uh whenever uh to be on the show.
+
+[48:07] Can I give a can I give a quick plug, Dave? Uh yeah, but before you do, I want people to know that Howard, I need every Howard is traveling, uh, who right wrote it uh wrote in is traveling to Europe uh in about a month, Western Europe, and he wants uh to take in the sight sound and the food. He's having a hard time deciding where he's going, so he wants everyone, uh, you know, you know, listeners here to tell him uh where to go for the best culinary pilgrimages, pilgrimages, epigurean experiences, must-try dishes or equipment shops in Western Europe. So that's broad, but let's get that uh information in. Uh Jeff Stenjem, I'm gonna answer your question on plastic wrap on Twitter.
+
+[48:44] Uh, I got an answer for you, and if not, I'll answer it again next week when we come back. Uh so go do your plug. Okay, uh, check out chefsteps.com. We've got a new course that we uh we created. It's basically what every first-year line cook should know, and every home enthusiast should know about cooking tender cuts of meat and seafood, steak to salmon, how to cook meats like a pro.
+
+[49:03] Sweet. Go check it out. Chris Young, thank you. Thank you, Dave. All right, this has been Cooking Issues.
+
+[49:13] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[49:39] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network dot org for thousands more. Cooking issues, showing your questions to Cooking Issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly twelve to roughly twelve forty-five. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Styles? Good.
+
+[1:16] And Jack in the uh engineering booth, Jack. And special guest today, my son Booker. Booker, how are you doing? I'm doing great. How do you do?
+
+[1:26] Uh I'm uh doing all right. Yeah, Booker's here at the show today. I took him out of school because we had to go look at another school. It's one of those parenting things. Did you enjoy the new school you were looking at?
+
+[1:35] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You got anything else to say to the uh radio folk out there? They were very nice to me.
+
+[1:42] They were? Are you looking forward to the pizza that we're gonna have after the uh radio show? Yes. Oh, good. All right.
+
+[1:47] Alright, nice. It's extremely polite book, Booker. This is like a whole new booker. You you know, maybe, maybe, you know, in a couple of years you can have your own radio show. You seem so nice on the on the radio.
+
+[1:56] Very cool. I hope so. Yeah. Good mic technique too. Nice.
+
+[2:00] Right? Right? Very pro. Better than us. Uh all right.
+
+[2:04] So uh I just have to make note that today uh is the first time in a very long time that Dave beat Nastasia to the studio. Yeah, that's true. Well, I would have been here even earlier, but apparently there's so many hipsters in this neighborhood now that it's actually difficult to park. What what? Hipsters don't drive, though.
+
+[2:21] Uh yeah, they do. They drive their parents' cars with the with the dancing bears on the back when they when they drive in from Westchester to hang out with their hipster buddies that got that cool apartment in Bushwick. Haven't you met those people? Yes. Yes, you have.
+
+[2:35] Yes, I have. And I may or may not drive my grandma's car. What you what kind of sweet ride does your grandma have? It's a 95 Nissan Central. Wow.
+
+[2:45] It's a beater. No, I like a beater. Uh okay. So uh let me get to some of the questions. I'm having some uh technical difficulties, so uh Booker's gonna be uh the only reason he's here uh is because uh I promised that he could use my computer throughout the entirety of the uh episode.
+
+[3:03] So the part of Nastasha will be played today by my son Booker, who will be on the computer the entire time. But uh I'm not able to get um off my headphones. Uh he's he's putting on his the computer headphones. But Booker, I'm actually gonna have you use the iPad instead, alright? To plug in, plug into that.
+
+[3:18] I'm gonna have to use my computer. Alright. Yeah, see? All right. Alright, nice.
+
+[3:22] So so malleable. I love it. Uh all right. Daddy. Uh uh, yes, Booker.
+
+[3:29] I'm doing a radio show here. Um We're leaving out one about one? Uh yeah, we're about one. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[3:36] Sennheiser. That's at the headphones saying them. Uh Booker is enjoying the uh the products here. Okay, now listen. Last week, when I uh when I ran out of time with Chris Young, that's fun, right?
+
+[3:47] Yeah. That was kind of fun. Uh it would have been even more fun if he were live in the studio, but he had to hang out in uh Providence, a place that Nastasha was actually supposed to be at the same time, and for some reason, even though I didn't know how I was preventing her from doing it, was lording it over my head. Did they uh have a good event up there or no? Yeah, we had a great time.
+
+[4:02] Yeah? Uh you know, I've never been to uh that's uh Johnson Wales up there, right? Mm-hmm. I've never been. Apparently they have uh like an intensely good cooking library.
+
+[4:10] Did you know that? Yeah, they do. Yeah. Wow. I'm surprised that nice.
+
+[4:15] I'm surprised you care. Surprised, and my heart's a little gladder. Yeah. Okay, but I promise that I'll go over some of the cooking peeves that I missed, kit kitchen peeves that I missed getting to on last week's show. Hopefully I don't repeat any, but uh a bunch came in while I was on the uh while we were on the air, and for some reason we're not technically sophisticated enough to be able to get stuff live.
+
+[4:35] Like you know what I mean? We're no we're no lair or low paid or anything like that. We can't yeah. All right. Uh Josh Schwanson wrote it.
+
+[4:43] You've got a couple. Using lids with holes in them to quote cover a product. Yeah, that sucks, right? Here's the thing though, there's different kinds of the like the like the holes issue. Like there's like giant holes, that's clearly problematic.
+
+[4:58] Then there's like the moron that punches a hole in the in the lid. But then, right, there's the I'm reusing the deli container that they punctured with like a uh a pen point so that the sucker doesn't blow up from the steam. But those suck when you're trying to transport stuff. How many times have we had core containers go crap on us? And that's why even Nastasha, who generally doesn't care about such things, wraps the hell out of core containers with plastic wrap afterwards if we're gonna transport them for a long distance, and hence has saved many a uh uh a bag.
+
+[5:26] Even though we're morons for carrying core containers in our bags, but we do it anyway because why? Because well, actually we haven't done it this year. This is our non duct tape year. Yeah. Remember?
+
+[5:36] Yeah. Uh you know what else I hate though? Here's another pet peeve crappy core containers. You ever like like you're like, meh, how much worse can the bag core container be? And the guy buys a whole bunch of bag core containers and they show up and the lids crack instantly, and you're like, oh, and then quart container after quart container cracks and spills the stuff all over everything.
+
+[5:58] It's just like the worst. Remember, we bought a bad batch once, but it wasn't like we were being cheap. They just sent us the bad freaking batch. And a good core container is is a joy and a pleasure. And you can like reuse it again and again, uh, you know, as long as you clean the onions out of it, and you know, they're awesome.
+
+[6:16] You know, I don't you know, and and and I had said this before on the show, I don't think they're any less green than anything else, because literally I'll use core containers for years, right? Unless they crack on first use, and then they're the worst things in the world. Uh Josh also wrote in, oh, by the way, it turns out your laptop doesn't work like an iPad. I'm sitting here trying to scroll my scroll my laptop screen. Uh using the last of an item and then not adding it to a list of stuff to order.
+
+[6:40] Now, this is one that sucks at home and uh at work. How many times does happen someone uses the last of a staple? You assume you have it, no one's like, oh uh, yeah, I used the last of the rice. Oh. How do you it's not how do you use the last rice and not and another way that pi pisses me off major in like professional scenario is hey, look, we have a menu item, right?
+
+[7:04] We have a menu item. We make it all the damn time, right? We're always making the menu item, right? You know that it requires this this product. I'm I'll make it up, malic acid, that you know is two days a week.
+
+[7:15] Malic acid also lasts forever, is not expensive, and doesn't take up that much space. Why would you ever run out? Why would you ever run out? Like, you're down to one pound. Order two.
+
+[7:29] You're not gonna take the stuff off, and we're always gonna be using the malic acid. Why would you ever run out? Should you ever run out, Stas? We ran out a lot. Uh yeah, well, uh, but not without me getting uh quite uh uh angry about it, right?
+
+[7:42] Anyway, okay. Uh third, Josh writes in Josh does not enjoy the bag inside of a secondary bag. But the question is why here? Because it's lazy. Sometimes I will put a bag in a bag when the bag sucks, but I want to maintain the label on the other bag temporarily.
+
+[7:57] But that's more of a home kitchen thing. That's not a uh a pr a pro thing. And a pro thing, you definitely don't want bags inside of bags. You definitely don't want this one where you have a bag inside of a bag, and then you pull out the crappy bag, and then that crappy bag is leaking, and then as you pull the crappy bag out of the outer bag, it sprays all over the place because you can't get the stuff out of the bag on the inside without spilling stuff. Sucks, right?
+
+[8:18] Mm-hmm. Sucks. Uh Jimmy Crib, uh, whose uh Twitter handle is at Val Kilmerson. That's good. Are you a Val Kilmer Kilmer fan?
+
+[8:28] Don't really have an opinion. In one way or the other, you didn't like uh Top Secret? I didn't see it. All right. Uh when the front of house asks for a towel and takes two.
+
+[8:37] Oh, but what so what do you think, Stas? Do you think that the front of house, back of house hatred is like mellowing over time or about the same? You think it's gonna change ever or no? I don't know. You're like, that I don't care about.
+
+[8:47] Okay, uh, R. Osler and Kay Zoker from at Gypsy Kitchen wrote in uh cell phones in the kitchen. Yeah, that kind of blows. Uh changing the oven temp when other things are st are still baking. Who does that?
+
+[8:58] Anyone who does that should get like I don't know, some sort of non-lethal but like uh instant and uh uh memorable punishment. Like, why would you do that? Why would you ever do that? Why would you anyway? Uh and improper wrapping.
+
+[9:14] Now here's the thing. Improper wrapping, so like at the French Culinary Institute, they're big advocates of like the major heavy duty hotel rap over, under sideways, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, right? And this is very good in situations where uh you know that eighteen people are gonna touch a product, it's going into a a shared refrigerator, it's gonna get jostled and moved, and what you need it to be is completely bulletproof, right? But then you have the people who hotel wrap in any circumstance, and so dump 18 layers of plastic, for instance, on something when you're about to do a demo, and what you really want to do is be able to get into the product without looking like a fool and like and like unwrapping it like it's a freaking Christmas present. So I think proper wrapping is a matter of context, but improper wrapping always irritating.
+
+[10:03] Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh Don Lee wrote in improper shoes, showing up in slippers, sandals, or heels, and if you do that, I'm gonna send you home. Yeah, it's true, especially when we work with liquid nitrogen or you know what?
+
+[10:17] It's like uh I had a guy once who you know, his one of his things, and like he had to stop himself from doing constantly, is literally po pouring boiling hot sauces on people when they wore open toed shoes. He's like, he's like, Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had real shoes on. I'm sorry that your foot is scalded and burnt off. But you really have no business like wearing open-toed anything in uh in in a kitchen. True.
+
+[10:41] You know? True. Or things that are slippery. You know what I'm saying? Uh because you know, if you bust your head, like that sucks for everyone, not just for you.
+
+[10:51] Like you made a bad decision and wore bad shoes. But now you've slipped and broken your head. You've probably ruined some decent food. Probably. You definitely are shutting down that that kitchen for a while while they scrape you off the ground and like figure out what's going on.
+
+[11:05] There might be a lawsuit. Everybody feels bad. You know, bad shoes, bad idea. Uh, which is not to mean I'm not feeling for the person that gets hurt. I'm just saying they shouldn't do that.
+
+[11:16] Make everyone's life easier. Uh Jay Schroeder uh wrote in, that guy who says hot behind every time he's moving around, and uh, I guess presumably, even though the stuff's not hot, keep crying, wolf, buddy. That's what uh Jay says. And like that's why Stas and I are always joking, lukewarm behind, like, you know, tepid behind, behind, a little bit like, you know, like I don't know, like bathwater temp behind, you know what I mean? Because most of the time people screaming behind.
+
+[11:44] I'm all for letting people know behind, but there is a certain level of screamage that I mean look, uh on the other hand, it's a total safety thing. So like at Somme, if you don't scream behind, you know, then you know, you get your behind handed to you. But you know, it doesn't need to be that yeah, you don't need to overplay the hot. It's like the same thing, it's like how many of you guys actually enjoy it when the uh when the Way Tron tells you that uh the plate is extremely hot, especially if you're a cook, you're like, that plate's not freaking hot. It's not freaking hot.
+
+[12:13] It's like w warm, maybe. When was the last time you had a a plate that really actually hurt your hand, Stuzz? I don't know. Like I serve Korean stone bowls, toll sots. They come out to the table at six hundred and fifteen degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[12:26] Plate hot. Your plate hot. But I think that's why a lot of people don't use those things because otherwise, if it wasn't for the fact that customers would burn their hands off all the time, there would be Korean stone bowls, the tollsots in every Apple Bee's in America. Why? Because all you need to do is pour a little bit of oil in the bottom, add rice, any other crap, any other crap.
+
+[12:47] Some sauce, an egg on top, delicious. Boop. You know what I mean? It's the easiest. Like you could do an Applebee's, it's just Tulsot Applebee's.
+
+[12:56] Except for the fact that you'd be burning too many people and then you get in trouble. Alright. A couple more of the peeves. Uh bh buh bub bup bub. Sam Breslaw, the bacon life, wrote in oversized knives on the line and punching holes through the crystal wrap rather than removing all of it.
+
+[13:13] In other words, like punching a hole through the top and then trying to take the stuff out because you didn't want to undo the hotel wrap that someone did when they were over-eager and wrapped the ever-loving crap out of something. It's true. Although what's an oversized knife on the line? That's the question. Like I literally, like anything over 10?
+
+[13:29] Do you consider a 10 too much? I love a 10-inch chest knife. I just like the way they feel, right? And I could deal with uh an eight, but I don't want anything smaller than an eight when I'm doing chopping. Do you mean like if someone's like busting out like like a super long, like a like a tuna knife?
+
+[13:43] Like what are we talking about? Like, what's too long? You what do you think is too long for a knife? I have no idea. At what point do you think it's more of a you know a judge of your of your nether regions as some sort of a stand-in?
+
+[13:52] I have no idea. I don't know, it's an interesting question. Uh Buck Carter writes in, not checking fridges and your section properly. First order comes and you're back to the fridge to get something. So not getting all your me's out and having to travel back and forth to the fridge all the time.
+
+[14:05] That's just weak thinking. It's weak thinking. Uh Adam Shearl writes in total lack of comprehending anything about surface area. Presumably, yeah, I hate that too. But like that's like a real meta kitchen peeve, you know what I mean?
+
+[14:14] But yeah, not understanding how food cooking works. And two, burnt black smoking oil that tastes and smells like gasoline. Usually, to me, it like smells of like rotting fish and rancid nasty. I hate that too. I freaking hate bad o a bad oil smell.
+
+[14:35] Don't you hate you hate a bad oil smell. In fact, I remember when we used to teach the uh Sous Vide Low Temp course, uh, we would uh do a fry off on a bunch of stuff, and a bunch of times the uh oil went over temp, and now the combination of short ribs and over temped oil, I can still just thinking about it makes makes me uh a little little nauseated a little bit. You know what I mean? I can I can anyone ever ha else have that? They have like specific things because I was also food poisoned when I did that class.
+
+[15:01] I was really sick. Remember that? And so I had to come in and teach the class even though I was food poisoned and like, you know, couldn't even like really concentrate or see straight. And so like that assault of that smell on my system while I was already completely damaged has impregnated it in my head and ruined me on that. I can't tolerate it anymore.
+
+[15:21] Weird, right? Yeah. It's weird how your body works that way. Uh okay. And Jimmy Criv again, back with when servers say it's so hot, uh it's so hot back here after only 30 seconds near the line.
+
+[15:35] He's like, You're making the tips. That's just weak. That's just weak that you get so so busy. If you can't stay Jimmy is saying, if you can't stand the heat, you you might as well want to get out of the kitchen. Uh and last but not least, he writes in, filling quart containers or lexans to the brim.
+
+[15:50] Oh, I hate that. Because when you open the quart container, the stuff pours all out. You can't help it. Like, unless unless you really have the fortitude to be like, oh crap. And put the quirk container inside of a cambro to open it so that you catch the spillage.
+
+[16:01] That's just dumb. That's just dumb. I hate that. And portioning out proteins before they're cool. I mean, I'm presumably mean cutting it so that they dry out and turn nasty.
+
+[16:11] Also, I'll leave one. When people pre-s when the people slice for portions before they go out, way the hell too early. Like for like if you're gonna send out like sliced meats or like a duck breast and you and you and then they crisp it off and they do a great job. They put it out to rest, and then they slice it like for like five minutes, ten minutes before that sucker's gonna go out to the customer, and it looks all old and nasty. I don't think people do that more than a day.
+
+[16:34] We used to see that all the time in the final exams for the students. But if you did that for more than a day at a restaurant, you'd be like beaten senseless, which you can't do at the FCI. The FCI weren't allowed to beat students senseless, as it turns out. Because it's a strange thing. They were customers as well as as as like workers, so it's like weird thing.
+
+[16:50] That's actually the hardest thing Stas had to wrap her head around. I was like, you know, you're not allowed to go uh ape tastical on these people, Stas, because they're also your customer. She's like, I don't get it. I don't get it. Is there an internet here?
+
+[17:00] Uh wait, hold on. Uh uh. Yeah, we'll get you uh internet on the break books. Uh okay, here's some peeves that I have. Wrapping, I think I've said some of these on the air, wrapping things in aluminum foil that aren't labeled and putting them in a fridge.
+
+[17:13] I'm gonna do a bunch of home ones because we got mainly pro stuff. I hate that. Once you wrap something in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge, you might as well have thrown that sucker in the freaking garbage, especially if you wrapped it and you're only at my house for an hour and you wrap it and you put it, or whatever, three hours, four hours eating. You put it in the fridge, and then I I don't know what it is and it's garbage. I'm getting hot.
+
+[17:32] Uh Booker, you should take off your coat. Uh uh Wasn't that one of the pet peeves right there? Yeah. Well, yeah, he's a he's a he's in the kitchen here for like 30 minutes. Jeez.
+
+[17:40] Oh my god. My own son. Uh putting kitchen equipment away when you don't know where it goes. So that the guy who lives in the kitchen and works in the kitchen all the time can't find it and has to spend half an hour finding the peeler. This is why I have four freaking identical Coon Recon Y peelers in my kitchen, so that three separate people can shaft me and put the freaking peeler away in a place that I don't know where it is, and I still have one left.
+
+[18:10] And yet still, time and again, I occasionally will have to spend 15 minutes looking for a peeler. I hate this. That's the problem because your maid keeps hiding them. I don't have a maid. Or whatever you call her.
+
+[18:21] I don't have a maid. Stas is like a classic on like not caring about people at all. She doesn't care about their maid. Whatever. What do you want to do?
+
+[18:29] What do you go? Using my knives without asking. Or anyone's knives. I would never walk into somebody's kitchen and like pick you know pick up their like chef's knife and just start using it without asking whether that's the knife I should use. And very similar thing, cutting on top of surfaces without asking whether it's okay to cut on top of the surface.
+
+[18:45] How many times does this happen to you, Stas? People just come and they take your knife and then they start chopping on top of something they shouldn't be chopping on top of. No, it doesn't happen. Why? Because you killed him first?
+
+[18:54] I thought you said you had bad friends. Oh. I think Stasza said no. I don't care. I don't know to every single one of these.
+
+[19:01] Yeah, yeah. Not smelling boards or containers for things like onions. Uh pros who come to your house and mease out all of your stuff when you only need a little bit for a recipe. Like I need some potatoes, and so they peel and cut every potato you have in the house, the entire five-pound sack. That ever happened to you?
+
+[19:18] Mm-mm. What do you do for a living? Uh not sitting down when I tell you to sit down at the table for eating. I hate that, right? And not having the table set when I've told you half an hour in advance that the dinner's gonna be ready in a half an hour.
+
+[19:32] I hate that. That never happens to you either. No, they get things done. For as bad as they are, they get things done. Your friends do?
+
+[19:38] Nice. Messing with food in a pan for no freaking reason. The stuff's just sitting there, it's sauteing, or it's crisping up on the bottom, or it's rendering its fat, it's minding its own business. Don't dork with the food. I hate that.
+
+[19:53] Do you not do you not care about that one either, or does that one bother you? Only Claire does that. And does it bother you? Mm-hmm. I tell her.
+
+[19:59] Oh, you do tell her. Alright, nice. Uh worry. Oh, here's one Stas gonna be mad at me before. Worrying about your personal comfort while you're cooking.
+
+[20:06] It's too late. You're cooking. Now the only thing that matters is the food. If you cared about your personal comfort, the time to care about it was before you started cooking. But Stas hates that about me because I never take my personal comfort into consideration in any circumstance whatsoever.
+
+[20:19] I don't get that one though. Like, oh, uh, I'm gonna go change, or oh, I need to pee. No, no. You should have peed beforehand. Like the clothes that you're now cooking with, you're now finishing.
+
+[20:30] It's not time to go worry about other crap. Your own comfort or something that you forgot to do during the day. Now comes the time in the day where we care about the food. And the food is the only thing that matters. Like, oh, my hand's a little burnt.
+
+[20:41] Okay, if it's majorly burnt, that's one thing. If it's a little bit burnt, you suck it up and you care for it after the food comes out. That's it. It's like when you're there, when you're cooking, you are not a person with your own thoughts and desires. What you are is a machine to make the best possible food that you can make.
+
+[20:57] That's it. Everything else is BS, in my, in my opinion. Uh alright. So that's good for the peeves. Uh, Jeff, right?
+
+[21:04] Yeah? Anything else? Do you have any peeves that you hate? No. You just don't want to call them out?
+
+[21:08] No, I don't. Nice. Alright. Well, uh, I'll take one more. Uh, Jeff, this is not a peeve.
+
+[21:14] Uh Jeff Stengem told me how to pronounce it by the way. Apparently pronouncing it incorrectly, but it's as close as an American's gonna be able to get uh Jeff Stengem. Writes in Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe, and hello Chris. Although I'm sorry we missed Chris. We talked about it a little bit because it's Chris's recipe, but we mentioned it last week.
+
+[21:28] Uh and I'll give you the shout out for Booker as well. Uh hey Dave, I contacted you about 18-inch non-PVC pr plastic wrap on Twitter the other day. So plastic wrap for those of you that know, uh typically home plastic wraps now are made of polyethylene, which is generally considered uh food safe, doesn't have plasticizers in it. It can still have solvents in it that haven't flashed off if it's done uh poorly, but the it's generally considered fairly inert, whereas the other, although it's uh poor gas barrier, uh the other one uh that's in common use is PVC, uh better gas barrier actually, uh however has the possible nasty effect of uh having uh estrogenic or some compounds in it that you don't want. Nasties, right?
+
+[22:12] Uh and there's a lot of research out there and a lot of back and forth, but uh I in general tend to avoid PVC for food contact. Um I've been making this is back to the question. I've been making Chef Steph's version of a chicken roulade with meat glue uh transglutaminase, which is a great technique. You know, I've been plastic wrapping, you know. Nils first showed me how to do Nils Noran uh showed me how to do uh the plastic wrap tubes because back at uh Akavy, you know, years and years ago, uh he would shape every meat into a tube.
+
+[22:40] We I used we used to joke with Nils that like, you know, uh that if in Nils's world, if Nils were God, all animals would just grow in the shape of a tube so that they could be cooked evenly and portioned evenly and served out. He might like he would have in his mind, fish swim through the oceans as perfect tubes, and uh shrimp, you know, flap around as perfect tubes, cows are perfect tubes, small perfect tubes. Anyway, um and he's very good at making perfect tubes with plastic wrap. Uh chicken roulade with meat glue. I wanted to try it with larger cuts of meat, uh, making the 12-inch wrap that I uh use a challenge to tie off.
+
+[23:15] You suggested trying uh a supermarket. Unfortunately, the supermarket brands stop making wider wrap, which is the source of my problem. I've looked at every restaurant supply store and uh food wholesale market in Seattle, and I've searched online and cannot find any 18-inch wrap without PVC that doesn't sound worthless. Uh I've read Chris's plastic safety article at the Modernist site and Chef Steps and uh made me rethink my use of PVC and the possible estrogenic effects. For myself, I don't really care.
+
+[23:43] Uh sounds like use does. Uh, but I have a daughter that visits in the summer and we like to experiment. I also regularly cook for people with children. I was researching and found an article that interviewed Harold McGee uh and he mentioned cryovac bags. He said that because the layer in contact with the food is polyethylene, uh, it lowered his concern about the PVC and outer layers.
+
+[24:01] Real cryovac bags are multi-layered and yeah, usually have some sort of polyethylene or similar inert layer on the inner side. Uh since it looks like I'm stuck with PVC, I was wondering if wrapping a layer of 12-inch polyethylene around the meat and then using the PVC uh to form and tighten the package would effectively prevent plasticizers from migrating to the roulette. It's tough to say. Uh it depends on how porous they are, and uh things in plastics tend to migrate back and forth uh with each other. And uh yeah, I mean depending on how they're made, and you know, and also especially the th these things are typically more lipophilic.
+
+[24:33] The answer to that question is I don't know. Um Although it depends also on how long the contact's gonna be. Presumably it's not gonna be that long the contact. I haven't been able to find data on this, but don't have access to journals. I was not able to find data on that either.
+
+[24:45] What do you think about this idea, the dual use? If you don't have a clue, do you have any suggestions about where I could go next with research? Should everyone that uses this technique uh place uh um uh ask people like PolyScience to carry wider, safe plastic wrap with their bags. I want to thank all of you, Cooking Issues, Heritage Radio and Shestes for everything that you do. Getting entertained by Dave in the Hammer every week makes learning a joy, and Chris's site is a daily part of my life.
+
+[25:08] Looking forward to the arrival of my Sears all. Thanks again, Jess Denjam. Uh okay, so listen. Here's the here's the secret. Uh you don't need to have the length of plastic wrap.
+
+[25:21] Uh okay, so I want you all to picture what's going on in in in your head here. You're taking a work surface. I like going directly on the stainless. Don't do it on a cutting board. The reason why is the cutting board will slip around uh as you work, even if you have uh, you know, the wet paper towel under the uh under the thing.
+
+[25:38] Use directly your work surface, get a uh like a damp towel and put a line of moisture, right, on the on your work surface, and then spread out a piece of plastic wrap so the moisture's at the top, and then you can pull uh a little bit on the plastic wrap to get a nice taut flat sheet of plastic wrap on your work surface. Now, the the width as you're looking at the width, right, which is what uh which is what Jess's talking about here, needs to be wide enough such that your entire roulade or tube, whatever you're gonna make into a tube, the entire thing fits with you have enough place to hold on the end and wrap back and forth like a rolling pin, pull it, you know, to form the tube. So it forms a tube much like a sausage tube, right? It needs to be wide enough for that to happen. But here's what I think that you're missing, uh Jeff, that you that's gonna help you out, is that you can use see you what you're using is you're using the width of the plastic wrap, right, as the as the width of the roulade, and then cutting the plastic wrap such that the you know you're you're you're doing the length front to back.
+
+[26:41] No, no, no, no, no. When you do very large roulades or even normal size ones if you only have small plastic wrap, what you do is you have the width of the plastic wrap line up front to back, and you just tear off larger pieces, right? And so you're doing it 90 degrees to the way that you're doing it. Now you can make the the roulade as long as you want. And it turns out that if you layer the plastic wrap, right, one, and then you you leave an inch and a half, excuse me, an inch and a half or two inches of overlap between the first piece and the next piece that you layer over it, right?
+
+[27:16] That you're not gonna get leakage, especially because you're gonna be pull you're rolling it into a tube and you're gonna put multiple layers on anyway. So, what I would recommend is doing it that way. Uh cutting going the wide way, making it as wide as you want, putting one layer, start always as far away from you as possible, make it taut, put the next one on, overlap like two, maybe even three inches, and pull it down, and then you should be able to uh do your roulade that way. It'll roll up, it'll roll up nicely, and when you put the second layer on, because I always recommend doing two layers when you pull it, wrap it tight once, fold the uh pigtails under, and then wrap again, you will not get leakage through that uh through that section. So that's how I recommend.
+
+[27:59] And you can take any size plastic wrap you have within reason and do any size uh roulade within within reason. I mean, we used to do very big ones uh for demonstrations at the uh FCI, and that's how we do it. So hopefully that helps. Uh let's take our first commercial break. Before we go to a break, Dave.
+
+[28:14] Yes. I just got a message from a listener named Wyatt who says, with no nothing else, I would buy a shirt that says enemy of quality with Dave's face on it, FYI. Yeah? Yeah. So just something to think about.
+
+[28:27] All righty. All right. Nice. Whoa. All right, cool.
+
+[28:32] We'll be right back. Since 2001, Heritage Foods USA has sold pasture-raised antibiotic-free heritage meats to restaurants and homes around the country. Our farmers raise their animals with care using traditional methods guaranteed to produce the very best tasting meat. Our pork breeds include Berkshire, Red Waddle, Durok, Gloucester Old Spot, Large Black, and Tamworth. And our beef comes from Piedmontese, Angus, Akiyushi, Belgian Blue, Highland, Cimental, and Belted Galloway Cattle.
+
+[29:06] We also carry rotation of twenty-four rare breeds of heritage chicken, seasonal specialties like lamb, goat, geese, and of course, Heritage Turkeys. Visit us online at www.heritagefoods USA dot com. Or give us a call at 718-389-0985 to place your order today. And we're back. And we're so who's we who's who brought us the show today?
+
+[29:33] Heritage Foods USA. HeritageFoods USA.com. Yeah? Do you have anything nice too? You like those guys?
+
+[29:38] Yeah, they're good people. Yeah, I hear they've got some good stuff. So uh Jack, you want to talk hot sauce? Yeah, I do. We're uh we're participating in a hot sauce expo with our pal Jimmy Carbone.
+
+[29:48] And uh had a few listeners kind of wondering what your thoughts on the extreme hot sauce people, you know. Did do you like really, really hot hot sauce? Is that ridiculous to you? Well, okay. Where do you stand?
+
+[29:59] So here's the thing. There are ex there are it depends on how hot is hot, right? So let's just before we get into sauces, let's talk peppers, right? Uh habaneros are delicious, for instance, right? And you know, when I was uh, you know, uh uh a 20-year-old, the habanero was the hottest pepper that you could get.
+
+[30:22] They were still relatively difficult to source in s regular supermarkets at the time. You had to go to a specialty place, and they were hot, but everybody realized that habaneros had a reason for existence, right? They they tasted really good. They had uh this kind of amazing like floral uh fruity aroma that you know other most other peppers didn't have, and kind of a real uh nice character to the spiciness. And so there were some extreme hot sauces that had habanero as the base, and they tasted really good because they tasted like habanero, but you had to use them sparingly because they were very hot.
+
+[30:59] Uh now let's let's ramp up to current hot peppers, hot hot peppers, the Naga Jalochia, the ghost pepper. You know what? That thing tastes like like nothing. It doesn't taste interesting, it's not interesting, it's just damagingly hot. Uh and so, you know, prior to that, back when I was uh, you know, when I I think I've mentioned this on the show before, when I was uh when I got out of college, I didn't really have a decent job.
+
+[31:23] I was, you know, uh waiting to start up work as a paralegal, and my my wife had a really good job working for Caesar Pellies as a you know uh a very famous architect, especially at the time, uh, in New Haven. And so I sat around with a fried daddy training myself to eat hot peppers by uh by frying deep frying habanero chili rellenos and just eating them one after the other until I was completely inured to capsation, right? So I said to myself, okay, I can take this. And uh so what's the next step? At the time, the next step after um, this is before super like in Dave's insanity sauce and stuff was out, at least it was before I knew about it.
+
+[31:57] And uh, although there was uh at the time, like the the whole hot and salsa thing was taking off kind of great guns. This is in ninety ninety-two, ninety-three, around that that time. And uh, you know, I I kind of realized there was a market for just, you know, who could who can, you know, i what's a polite way of saying this? It's like, you know, just kind of like proving your manhood by by eating hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter things, right? And then subsequently proving that, you know, women can eat as hot of a thing as it as a D-bag guy can eat, and things just got hotter and hotter and hotter.
+
+[32:32] And I and I was caught up in that, I guess because I was young and dumb. And so I sourced uh a bunch of the oleo resin, which is the stuff that you use to just add pure heat, the stuff that comes with like legit warning labels of bad things happening to you if you eat it. I sourced it from an industrial supply, you know, way back in the day. And I realized this stuff just doesn't have any good taste. And so then a lot of the hyper hot sauces that have come out, uh, to me, taste of that oleo resin, which is fundamentally pure spice and the dregs of what maybe at one time was a decent chili, but is now just uh just about spice.
+
+[33:08] And so there's very little flavor in those things, and you know, and I I'm not trained anymore, so like I don't like things as super hot, although I can still take it better than most people can. Um so my my my point is if it if it helps the flavor, then I'm all all for it, you know. And if it's just done as a stunt, I think it's kind of uh a crappy idea. I think it's especially a bad idea to put intensely hot things uh all over like otherwise nuanced foods because you're just gonna ride over the top. I don't care how good you are, even at the height of my training with with eating hot stuff, I would have to have admitted that you know it's gonna be very difficult to tell, you know, uh I mean you could tell texture is fine, but like the actual kind of um you know, base note flavors and stuff is just so much going on in your mouth that it just it's hard to tell what the hell's going on.
+
+[34:00] It's you know, it's there's a fine line to it, but there's definitely a place where I think even the biggest spicophile will realize that the line's been crossed. And you know, that's why you know, at the bar we've had a bunch of spicy drinks, and uh, you know, my point is, yeah, I can take it and I I like the spice even, but are we still balanced? Are we still in the business of doing something that's balanced or not? Is this making sense, Jack, or no? Sorry, I was distracted, Dave.
+
+[34:24] Yeah, all right. You asked me the question, I don't even know whether I answered it right. Alright, whatever. We had a guest come in. Yeah, alright.
+
+[34:29] Well, anyway, so my point is uh my point is, you know, I'm fine with the super hot sauces. I like I used to like the ones that uh have a lot of flavor. In fact, the most interesting one we had was called uh it wasn't spicy at all. It was a pepper sauce made by uh Dune North in New Zealand was sent to us by a listener and was uh uh a completely non spicy pepper sauce that had such a rich pepper flavor. I love that.
+
+[34:54] You know what I mean? I love it. Uh they left it somewhere. Uh uh luckily they sent me two bottles, and so uh we lost one because I think we lost it at Roberta's. We brought it to the table and we're eating it and then it got busted away or something, we lost it, but we you know, I was able to to keep the other one.
+
+[35:08] So someday they will ship it to uh the US of A. Alright. Uh Jack's like, I don't know, I don't care. Uh did we talk last week about vacuum marinating in a in a in a uh in a in a I in a ISI whipper? Not that I can recall.
+
+[35:22] All right. Well, clearly it's not vacuum marinating, but Brendan Lee wrote in and said, uh, can you talk about vacuum marination uh of meat in a uh siphon? Uh well, okay, so look. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, is in vacuum marination, what you're doing is pulling a vacuum on a uh piece of uh meat, and thereby oh, we have talked about this over the past couple of weeks of trying to accelerate the rate at which cure or brine uh goes in. This actually dovetails with uh something that was written in uh by Harry that we're gonna deal with in a in a in a minute.
+
+[35:52] He he says, uh, hey Dave, uh have you seen um uh physicist Greg Blonder, B L O N D E R's website, uh which is W W W dot genuine ideas.com. Uh have you seen uh his website where he plays around with cooking? Uh you might be interested in uh this investigation he did about dye. So if you go to uh if you look up dye, uh you know, Greg Blonder and like food dye, I'd seen some of his research, but this article is really awesome. It talks about rate of diffusion of different uh molecules into uh different meats at different rates and and how they work.
+
+[36:28] So it'd be interesting to to combine that with uh vacuum stuff, because I don't think he did that yet, but it's fantastic read. I I recommend everyone uh who hears this goes to check out uh that that page because it's just really I think it's really good work. Uh but so we when you're doing uh vacuum marination, that that's one thing. In in the ISI bottle in a siphon, you're doing the opposite. You're trying to use pressure to force um to force under pressure liquid into meats.
+
+[36:55] And in fact, uh I thought of uh the the reason I thought of rapid infusion uh at all was a guy named Mr. Fizz was using his carbonation system to pressure inject marinades into meats. So it definitely works. Uh I would recommend doing uh a double a double pressure. So um I I I don't know whether I I did publish it actually, or I should say Paul published it uh on cooking issues.
+
+[37:21] Uh you can do uh infusion in an ISI uh just like you can in a vacuum where you you pressurize the stuff in under pressure. The question is you want to release it slowly. Here's why. When you pressurize uh when you pressurize a product into a piece of meat, let's say, you're also injecting in air, you're compressing any air that's in there, you're compressing it down very small. When you release the pressure, that air will re-expand again.
+
+[37:46] It will tend to leave and will also tend to generate uh pores within it that allow further penetration on the next go-around, but you definitely want to put two different pressure cycles on it. But it definitely works, and if you look at Mr. Fizz's old uh stuff back in the day, you can see him, it's really gross actually, because he's doing in a plastic bottle, and you can see chicken getting injected with uh brine uh under pressure. But I definitely recommend two pressure pushes, not one. And you can also do it if you if you happen to have a uh if you happen to have like a corny keg and and uh like a larger system, you can you can do it in a corny keg as well.
+
+[38:23] I have not done um I have not done it with CO2, which is what you would probably use in a larger corny keg because you probably don't have a nitrous tank like I do. But I've had people uh try it and tell me that when they cook the meat afterwards, presuming that you cook it properly. Uh well, when I say properly, I mean uh, you know, all the way through to a warm temperature, that there will be uh no more residual CO2 taste, but I cannot vouch for this because I have not tried it. But you should be able to do like you know, a whole suckling pig that way in a in a well, no. I mean you have to be able to fit it through the lid of the corny keg, but as long as you put it in the corny cake.
+
+[38:57] There's uh there's other things, by the way. You can get what's called a pressure pot, if you don't want a corny keg, uh, that they use for spray painting, and that you could fit like a whole uh turkey into. You can get them at like uh what's that what's that tool store? Harbor Harbor Freight. You can get them at like Harbor Freight.
+
+[39:13] Just be careful because the insides of them aren't necessarily food grade, so you're gonna want to put stuff in a plastic bag. And I bought one once that smelled like petroleum for forever, and I wasn't able to get the petroleum smell out. I wasn't using it for food, so please I don't want to hear it. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[39:25] All right. Okay. Howard, what? Oh, geez, what? Sound bad?
+
+[39:30] Right. Uh Howard wrote in, uh, let me see if I get it. Uh uh no, Harry. I got Harry. Harry was chatting with the pastry chef I work with, and we had a quick question.
+
+[39:39] We've been doing an aerated chocolate, uh, tempered chocolate, I aside into a container and then placed in a vacuum machine uh as a mingel diz, mingel dizzy. You like that French word? You like little petty four things, little small things? That's like I don't give a crap. Uh and we're curious if there's any way to dispense some of the chocolate into the container, then layer a denser thing, perhaps a praline paste, and then more of the chocolate with the idea that when the mixture goes into the vacuum, the denser material will fill all the holes that are created in the aerated chocolate.
+
+[40:08] Thanks, Harry. Now listen, uh I don't think so. I'm just gonna go ahead and say I don't think so. Uh now I'm always wrong, but my feeling is this when you're aerating chocolate, you're the what's happening is is that there are already, remember I said before, there's minute air, air bubbles and pockets uh inside of your product, right? Especially when you ISI it, it's not really air, there is some air, but it's nitrous oxide and small stuff.
+
+[40:29] When you're putting it in the vacuum machine, what's happening is you are uh inflating that. Uh you're inflating that and then setting it. But uh there's not uh migration of that air out or that nitrous out. If there was, you would lose the structure because the chocolate can't hold its own structure that way until after it's set into a solid. And so my feeling is you're gonna have a closed cell foam.
+
+[40:57] And in a closed cell foam where there's no actual continuous path between the uh different uh pockets, the different, you know, uh whatever you want to call them, air cells, uh nitrous cells, there's no way to infuse stuff into them. Now, what it would be possible to do is to um is to make a uh some sort of like beady sauce, and then uh like a like emulsifier mix that in and then do it that way, even maybe with a possible also uh secondary aeration, so it was a little less hard than it would otherwise be. But I don't see any way to do it directly the way you're saying you could get it to layer, but you wouldn't be able to get those uh those holes filled with something else. But as I say, I have been wrong many, many, many times. So it might be a situation where you could aerate the block, cut the block open, and then there might be some open uh passageways through it, and then you could post infuse a product into it once it's solid.
+
+[41:58] Uh, but you know, then you're gonna have uh you're gonna have other difficulties. But I think it's very gonna be a very difficult, uh, very difficult proposition. Um okay. So Howard wrote in last week, and I did not get any tweets uh in on on this, uh, and you know, Stas didn't give me any good ideas of where you should go in Europe, even though she does nothing but wishes she could go back to Switzerland. But he wrote in last week.
+
+[42:21] Uh big fan, uh longtime listener. Um planning my first trip to Europe with my brother in about a month, now a little less than a month. Uh while I'm there, I want to take in sight sound and most importantly the food. I'll be sticking to Western Europe for this trip, but I'm having a hard time deciding where to go. I was hoping I could pick your brain uh and the brains of the folks at the Heritage Radio Network for ideas on cul culinary pilgrimages, pilgrimages, epicurean experiences and must-try dishes or go to equipment shops.
+
+[42:43] Keep up the amazing work. Howard. All right, look. Howard, here's the thing. No one's writing in uh on this, even though I asked them to.
+
+[42:50] It's all right, it's all right, it's all right. Uh, but here's how I go about this sort of thing. If I haven't been to a place before, right, uh, I will sometimes ask people, you know, like where you know where we should go. So for instance, if you're going to London, you need to go to Neil's Yard Dairy and have the cheese, right? Uh you should go to my friend Tony's bar.
+
+[43:09] You should go to, I mean, if you have the time, obviously you should go to the fat. All these things. Like, there's, you know, there's there's great restaurants. I can give you a list of great restaurants. If you're gonna be anywhere near uh Kent, you should go to Favisham and go to the farm.
+
+[43:21] If you're gonna go to Paris, you know, and you want to go to a good shop. I you know, I I can't even pronounce it, but that there's that awesome old shop. It's called like the Hilarin or something like that. And it's amazing, 200-year-old uh shop filled with a bunch of curmudgeons that you need to go to, or like Bertalome, which is I think on the Rue de Grenouille, which is like you know, my favorite cheese shop, and you gotta go to the Mad Lane joint uh, you know, you gotta go get uh macarons up in like you know near the Rue Mad Lane, you gotta go to Fouchon, you gotta do all that stuff. But you know, if you're you know, what you should do, what I highly recommend anytime I'm going someplace, what I do first is I go and believe it or not, Wikipedia, and I just go uh ballistic on reading whatever the local crap is that they have that no one else has.
+
+[44:01] One. Right. So and and by the way, every place that I've ever been in Europe has really interesting things to eat and interesting things to see from a food standpoint. And any place you go, you should always find out when and where the best markets are where hardcore people shop, right? And you need to go there early enough in the day so that you get an idea of what's going on, and then you should ask them for only products that are from around that region or that are peculiarly peculiar or typical to that region.
+
+[44:31] So that's the first thing. Whenever I'm going to another place, I make sure that whoever is hosting me or who wherever I'm going or whatever I'm doing, I have time to visit local markets and see what's going on. That's where I learn that the most. I also like to go to a local supermarket to figure out what like the average person is shopping at a supermarket, figure that out, although that's maybe not exactly what you're talking about. Uh and then uh I just do a lot of research searching and finding out what the local uh local fabulous dishes are, or at least the ones that are only uh available there and not available uh anywhere else.
+
+[45:04] And that's really and I just do like a boat ton of reading beforehand. Um but I you know always make sure that I get I I hit those, I hit those things. At this point in my life, I have so much kitchen crap that I rarely go to sho I rarely buy hard goods anymore. I'm mainly interested in foods that I can't bring home and can't have uh otherwise. And if you got the money for it and the time, and you know, I recommend like once in a vacation going to like a really like butt-kicking, like a like a three-star, you know what I mean?
+
+[45:36] But I'll I would only do it like once or so. I think otherwise you get kind of palate fatigue, try to figure it out. Uh you know, which one you want to go to, but it's always a good experience to do. Yeah. Helpful advice?
+
+[45:45] I know. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. Just like don't care. You get to go to Europe soon.
+
+[45:44] I I am going. I'm going to actually I'm bringing Booker does not want to go to Paris. He will not go, he will not. Hey Booker. Yes.
+
+[45:58] Do you want do you are why do you not want to go to Paris with me? Because I hate leaving the country. Hmm. Alright. Hates leaving the country.
+
+[46:06] Nice. Alright. Why? Why? Okay, Booker, why do you hate leaving the country?
+
+[46:10] Because I really love home. And I'm worried that if we get caught in a foreign country, we would get lost. Just like in Japan, once you got lost. I did uh but am I back? Yes.
+
+[46:25] When did you get lost? I didn't get lost. It's in his mind that he thinks I got lost. I never got we never Astas. Nastasha was with me in Japan.
+
+[46:31] We didn't get lost. Anyway, he doesn't want to go. And you know what I said to him? I said, Booker, someday you're gonna regret not going. And what did you say?
+
+[46:39] I'll never regret. I hate leaving USA and I will never leave my home. Wow. Real patriot like his father. Well, well, no, I like I like traveling places.
+
+[46:48] Anyways, Dax is gonna go to Paris with us, and so I'm gonna take him, hopefully. Although it's not my favorite time of year for cheese in in France, like like uh the Vachan Mondor that I you get at Bartholomew is pfft one of my favorite things on on earth. Anyway, okay, look. Steve Crandall writes in, hello, love your show. It's very informative and entertaining.
+
+[47:03] I would like to know how you make your pizza sauce and what cheeses do you use on your pizza? Uh, what can I do to my blodget 981 oven to make it reach very high temperatures like you did your home oven? Uh although remember, my oven at home was uh was a garland. My new one is uh a wolf, which is the same thing as uh a Vulcan. I listened to an earlier episode where someone was having trouble with lumpy shrinking dough.
+
+[47:25] When I have dough like that, I put it back in the fridge for another day or two, and then it's very easy to work with. Also, uh this is a separate question. If I brine my chicken uh wings, will that make their uncooked shelf life longer? If so, how long would you hold them before cooking? Alright, I'll answer that one first.
+
+[47:38] Uh you'll probably uh this is from that was from Pat in Old Forge. Wait, that's from Pat. It says from Pat, but then up top it says that it's from uh Steve Crandall. Which one is it? Steve Crandall.
+
+[47:50] All right. Well, I'm sorry, one of you, I'm shafting one of you. Anyway, uh so you're gonna yeah, you're gonna get some extension in shelf life whenever you uh salt something out, or at least you will slow the microbial growth, but a lot depends on exactly what brine strength you're talking about. And uh in general, I wouldn't use that as a as like a hold safe technology, do you know? Although I've had fermented chicken uh and and uh spare ribs that were held for a long time because they had to ferment.
+
+[48:17] Andy, you know, used to do those, they're delicious. Andy Ricker does a fermented spare rib thing, which I think is really awesome. Anyway, so back to your other question. Blodget 981 oven, uh, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, is a uh deck oven, a commercial deck oven. Uh uh the one that I saw online is gas fired.
+
+[48:34] Uh and it only goes up to 500 degrees, which is not very good. Uh now here's what you here's here's what I'm gonna tell you. Anything you do to this oven could potentially render what that was Pat. All right. Pat, I don't know what was Steve then.
+
+[48:47] Did I miss his question? You must it must be up. Whatever. Is it above the page? I don't know.
+
+[48:51] Uh so uh sorry Pat, this is your question. So here you are. So anything you do could potentially be unsafe. Uh could put and will cause the outside of the oven to get much hotter than a normal commercial oven normally gets because they don't have as good insulation. You might cause other ancillary bad things to happen.
+
+[49:10] I'm just letting you know. Uh now, there are two things. What I did in my oven was my original oven was I use the existing gas delivery system, right? And in the old garlands, when you crank the thermometer up all the thermostat all the way, it actually goes into runaway mode, would mean that it's no longer thermostatically controlled. And when it's in runaway mode and not thermostatically controlled anymore, uh the maximum temperature that oven can get to on its own is roughly 560, 570 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[49:41] Uh now, so what can you do? Well, you can add more power. Duh. So I put uh I put in uh two electrical heating elements to boost the power, and that's what allowed me to get up to uh eight hundred and fifty or change degrees because I added extra electrical heating elements. Now you have to be very careful.
+
+[49:59] You have to get what's called oven wire, or actually even heavier duty wire than oven wire, where the insulation can withstand those kinds of temperatures. You want to put them through ceramic grommets on the way through the uh oven so that when they go out and you want to put extra insulation there so that you don't zorch or zap yourself, right? Now in your deck oven, that's probably gonna be more uh difficult. What I would do for you is uh I looked it up and it actually has just a plain thermostat in it. So the two things you can do is increase the BTUs of that unit, right, by uh adjusting the actual burner elements that are in it, and two replace the thermostat.
+
+[50:32] I looked up, and in fact, you can just go buy a stock thermostat for that blodget, the FDTH thermostat, they will take it up to 650 degrees uh Fahrenheit. Now, on my oven, right, where I can put, in fact, have already my new oven, my wolf slash Vulcan where commercial again, where I've put the two heating elements in. The problem is that that thermostat's not in runaway. So another thing you can do is you can put the, you can leave your old thermostat in. I'm not recommending you do this.
+
+[50:58] Please don't do this. I'm not recommending you do this. It's physically possible to put a T in. Never bypass the safety valve, the baso. Never bypass the bezo safety valve.
+
+[51:09] But you can safely, if you are trained in doing gas piping, bypass the thermostat so that you can put the entire oven into runaway without replacing it. Then once the oven's in runaway, then you need a thermocouple to measure how hot it's getting in runaway. If when you put the thing in, by the way, runaway just means full-on gas. If when the thing's in runaway, it's getting hot enough for you, then you're done. If not, then you can think about augmenting the burner, putting a secondary uh maybe electrical unit in the top to boost the power a little bit.
+
+[51:40] And it doesn't take much. It doesn't take much. But those are things that I would uh look at. There's also a steam injection kit for that, which would be pretty cool. I think blodgets are good.
+
+[51:48] I used to have a blogger electric convection oven, and I had to get rid of it because I don't have the power anymore. But I love that damn thing. Oh uh we're out out of time. Our next guest is unfortunately. All right, so listen, I asked uh on the Twitter today for um for people to send me bad Yelp reviews, reviews of Yelp that were like crappy.
+
+[52:09] And apparently I'm not gonna have time to go into my uh rant slash musings on Yelp, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and the stupidity of some people that um that yelp out at you. So we'll have to do the Yelp next week, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore Radio.
+
+[52:44] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening to the
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinary center.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:23] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Isers coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushway! Right?
+
+[1:18] Mm-hmm. I think so. Calling your questions to you. 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:25] A little bit of a sad note uh on the program today. Joe from the engineering booth has left us. Has left us. But we have Evan in the booth today, am I right? Is that we do?
+
+[1:36] Yeah. You're there, good. So, uh yeah, so we'll be seeing uh we'll hear more of uh of Evan, I guess as time goes on. We know what uh what Joe's moved on to? Uh more band stuff, big ups.
+
+[1:48] Nice. Awesome. So uh, you know, uh, as you may or may not know, Joe is the front man in a band. What's the band name again? Big ups.
+
+[1:55] Oh, big ups. I thought you were giving him big ups. I thought uh big ups for Joe moving on in the thing. Now that band's name is Big Ups, and we can give Joe uh big ups. I'm sure he has something on the iTunes.
+
+[2:06] He does indeed. Yeah, yeah, and follow him on the on the Twitter. We wish him well. We like some we like ourselves in Joe. Mm-hmm.
+
+[2:11] Yeah, right? Nice. All right. Uh Stas, how are you doing? You were you were in the week in the California, yeah?
+
+[2:16] Yep. She went to California and her hair went more California while she was gone. She she's lost some of her it only takes one week, apparently, for Nastasia Lopez to lose her New York edge and to turn back into a California person. You don't think so? No.
+
+[2:31] You get you've you've already gotten most of your New York anger back, you think? Yeah, yeah, this morning I did. Yeah. So you guys can't see this there at uh at home, but I brought and this has been in my fridge now for about two months. I have a uh what can only be described as a lady lemon.
+
+[2:46] You want to describe this thing, Nastasha? It looks like a labia. Wow, that was more graphic than I expected. And I uh what what are we gonna name this thing? Lululemon?
+
+[2:55] It's the most graphic lemon I've ever seen in my entire life. I don't know. If we maybe if people ask us, we could they could tweet out. Again, it's getting a little it's getting a little old. It's got a little uh some blemishes.
+
+[3:06] It didn't have this little herpy thing before. But um, yeah, if anyone is interested in seeing Lululemon here, we can uh we can definitely tweet that out. Uh I hear we have a caller, caller, you are on the air. Hey, how's it going? Going all right.
+
+[3:22] What is your question? Okay, sorry, uh there's a little bit of a delay on my end. Yeah, we're still here. Yeah. Question is that I have both my mother and sister claim that they have an intolerance to MSG.
+
+[3:39] And I had read Nathan Mirable's uh book and I'd always heard you speak on the topic. I don't know what um what experiment I should do to basically demonstrate that they don't have an intolerance to it. Well okay. So here's what you depends on are are they game for a good test or no? Pardon me?
+
+[4:02] Are they are they are they like good sports or no? Uh yeah, they'd be open to it. All right. Here's what you do. Uh go out to uh a supermarket or like you know, uh GNC or someplace that sells vitamins, whole foods sell these things, right?
+
+[4:19] And or Amazon and buy empty uh gel caps or vegetarian gel caps if they don't eat uh the the meat. Uh and then um get a predetermined amount of MSG, choose something reasonable, you know what I mean? Something that you might add to uh a recipe. Then uh bulk it up to you know whatever it takes to fill the gel cap, then fill the other gel cap, right, with the equivalent amount of sodium, a half and then other the same inert filler that you do. I have to do my math, but I think msg has I think roughly half the sodium by weight.
+
+[4:53] I gotta look it up. It's it's something like that, uh as salt, right? So that way you're accounting for any actual difference in sodium intake that they're getting uh from uh the MSG in the pill that's gonna affect them. Then once you have the pills, you wanna you want to keep them separate, obviously, the ones that don't have MSG from the ones that do. You want to take like uh an like an air like a like a a light mist of air or you know, something uh you know, like one of those uh keyboard dusters, and you're gonna want to blow any excess powder.
+
+[5:23] You want to be sure to try to get any powder off of the outside of the capsules uh you can. But then blow it a little bit with one of those dusters to to get to get rid of them the the pills need to look identical right and then what you do is you um feed them to them in random orders that only you can tell what's going on right and you take it but better yet even is to is to put them in pouches that are numbered have a third party hand it to them so that there's a that who doesn't know what's in each one so there's absolutely no way that there can be any sort of visual cues as to what they're going. If they swallow these pills without breaking them there is absolutely no way for them to taste the characteristic notes that are in MSG right then i if they have a reaction to uh if they have and you have to run this trial many times right so it's like a coin flip. It's possible to flip a coin for five six times and get the right answer five times in a row. So if you do this over the course and you know you can do it either with meals or empty whatever, but you're gonna want to do it the same way each time, right?
+
+[6:23] Uh and then if you if you do this course of study over a long enough period of time you will notice that if there is a reaction it is random and not correlated to whether or not there's MSG in the gel cap or not. Almost all the studies that showed an actual effect uh with MSG um showed it uh an effect when the MSG was added to things like uh orange flavored beverages because whoever set up the experiments at the time thought that they would be able to mask the flavor of the MSG with a with a very you know high flavored I guess tang equivalent or something like this. You can't do that because remember MSG is not just a like a flavor, but like salt, it's a pot it's a flavor potentiator. So you can tell kind of, in other words, like you like sub-threshold, before you can say there's MSG in there, you can taste that something's different, something that's going on. So you're gonna, you know, you want to make sure that they can't taste it at all.
+
+[7:12] And the, and I don't have it in my head, but the study that was the the kind of gold standard study for this showing that that you know they that the reactivity to MSG was a load of nonsense, that's how they did it. They did it with gel caps. Uh, and so, you know, that's that's definitely what I would recommend. Now, just on the actual science of it, as you know, aside from running an actual test, um, all of this like there's there's uh there's several different uh arguments against MSG. One of them is that uh it has to do with something called uh uh excitotoxicity.
+
+[7:42] So they're saying it's like it's like uh a neurotransmitter that can cause toxicity in the brain. This is a load uh it's a load of crap because you the frankly, because the MSG that you take in doesn't cross a blood-brain barrier at all. In fact, your brain uh synthesizes its own MSG uh and then uh not MSG uh glutamic acid, then converts it to glutamine to export back back across the blood brain uh blood brain barrier. Um and so remember you're it like glutamic acid is an entirely uh you know normally naturally occurring, in fact, necessary to life. Without without uh you know glutamic acid, you are hosed and your brain won't work properly.
+
+[8:21] Aside from the fact that you know it's in you know protein in general, without it, you're you know, your brain doesn't work right. So to say that, you know, it it is true that in certain situations, an an excess level of it in your brain is indicative of things going wrong, but it has nothing to do with uh the stuff that you're taking in. The studies that show damage from actually consuming large amounts of free glutamic acid were done on uh neonatal monkeys that whose blood brain barrier hadn't been set up properly, or on rodents who don't work the same way that we do regarding this. Now, another thing to to note is that a lot of the studies where people say they've had reactions, they're taking just straight MSG without uh a lot of uh food. Turns out that if you were to take a bunch of MSG and it not you know, don't do this, but a bunch, yeah, you can spike your the levels of uh you know glutamic acid in your blood.
+
+[9:11] Sure. You know what I mean? However, those spikes do not happen when MSG is consumed, even in fairly decent quantities with food. So, you know, pretty much all of the things that um are you know possibly could be wrong with it are just a load of malarkey. And you know, it turns out that if you look, there's a very good paper, and I don't have it at the tip of my tongue, but it's fairly easy to search for.
+
+[9:34] There's a good, and I think it was put out in the eighties or nineties, history of the entire MSG kind of phenomenon and how it kind of started as a lark about like what's going wrong with these people who were eating at Chinese restaurants in you know, uh, you know, a long time ago, and then trying to hone in on what the component is at you know, MSG. Whereas for me, my assumption is, and people have done studies on because you know, one of the things that you know, people like me who's always said that MSG is fine, we said no, it's really like anyone that has a reaction, it's it's probably the sodium, the same way that if you eat a boatload of uh you know cheese and and red wine, the next day you have a headache, or you know, you can you know, because you've consumed like eight eight tons of salt and alcohol, so you're dehydrated. And so uh, you know, the what I always say is that a lot of people they order a bunch of incredibly uh you know spiced and salty kind of uh Chinese food entrees, and they don't eat any rice, which would be the equivalent of walking into a McDonald's and just pounding the bottle of ketchup and not eating the hamburger. You know what I'm saying? Uh and so it's not really a uh a valid comparison.
+
+[10:36] Uh and plus a lot of people, if they think I mean, I'm actually reading a bunch of interesting uh books now on the effect of the mind, not only on how you feel uh how you feel from a kind of mental, uh like emotional physical state, but actually like how your body responds. Uh and so what what people think about MSG can have radically uh important effects on how their body reacts to things that contain it, especially if they can taste it, which is why going back to the uh the gel cap. So if you want to look at um kind of differential uh ways the body absorbs nutrients or reacts or metabolism slows up or speeds down, you can look at the work of uh Mattis, M A T uh M A T T E S out of uh uh Purdue, and then he links to a bunch of the old like the classic studies of like Swedish women versus uh Thai women and how their bodies differentially absorb food that they like or don't like. So there's a lot of interesting uh work like that out there, but it all adds up to don't worry about the MSG. Thanks very much.
+
+[11:36] Hey, no problem. Hope that helps. And uh tweet tweet on into at cooking issues and let me know if you were able to convince them because I like to hear I like to hear both sides. I like to hear whether or not they were convinced or whether they remained unconvinced. Yeah, as soon as I perform the test and and set it all up, I'll I'll definitely tweet that.
+
+[11:52] Super, thanks a lot. Thank you very much. So should we should you tweet out the Lululemon or no? Yeah. Are we allowed to call it Lululemon?
+
+[11:58] Do you think it's a good thing? No? Because we're gonna get we'll get that guy, that guy is already getting sued himself. He has more to worry about than whether we're calling the stuff Lululemon, right? What did he do that was so terrible again?
+
+[12:08] See-through yoga pants accidentally? How do you accidentally make a pair of see-through pants? It doesn't seem like you could do that by accident. Do you like do you like the phrase on accident? As opposed to the standard by accident?
+
+[12:23] Okay. Um Alright, now uh Evan, I got a question for you. We got a we got a uh response in, remember someone asked about uh what to do when they're in uh Europe, and we got this amazing uh answer in from uh San Stan B. Uh but it's like so long that I don't know that I can read it. Can we put it up on the uh like with the podcast on if I give you the text of the response and I can just read clips from it?
+
+[12:50] Yeah, I think we could do that. Alright. So this is like, and in fact, I'm going to gonna be in Paris for a couple of days. I'm gonna hit up some of this stuff uh uh too. Um so I'll read some of it, right?
+
+[13:00] In fact, I'll start with the end because uh I think Stan knew that it that I might not have time to read the whole thing. So he said at the end, if you do not read the whole thing on the show, see he knew. He knew. Uh, I'd appreciate a plug for Nicolas Bernardet. He is truly good and deserves recognition.
+
+[13:17] So right there we're gonna say, uh, you know, do that. But in the parts that I do read, here's what I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear any complaints about my French pronunciation, right? Because uh it's known that I suck, and it's also known that one of the reasons why uh I was sucked at French in high school was because of the pronunciation and how how I'm just bad at it. Anyway, okay.
+
+[13:39] Um here are a few pointers for Paris and France, regardless of cost, however. So I hope I don't know if regardless of cost. Yeah, so he starts right out with Tyvon, right? Uh Tavon and uh Le Cerre are both two Michelin stars, uh, and they serve uh top notch 21st century classic French cuisine. Go there if you uh want to understand what French food is supposed to be about.
+
+[13:56] Tavon has one of the most extraordinary wine cellars in France. Uh Claire Heitzler at Le Cerre got elected pastry chef of the year by her peers in 2012. Uh go check out the roast chicken at La Miloui, uh the bistrofaire of Le Comtois de Relais. I don't have to pronounce this stuff, the Comptoir de Relais, uh and the egg mayonnaise of Le Voltaire. The roasted duck of La Tour d'Argent.
+
+[14:17] I actually want to have that. You know what that? That's the ro that's the pressed duck. That's the famous pressed duck. Mm-hmm.
+
+[14:21] And they number it. I have no idea whether it tastes good or not, but they give you like a little certificate with the number like you ate pressed duck bubble butt. You know how they make the pressed duck? Yeah, we did it together. I can't remember whether you were with with us when we did that.
+
+[14:31] Yeah, but I would like to have the official I wonder how far in advance you have to sign up for that. Should do it now. Do you think Dax would like that? Dax is going to Paris at me. Dax will probably like that.
+
+[14:40] The squishing with the bones and like the stuff coming out. Well, check it out. I'm sure it's gonna be extremely expensive. Anyway, uh most dishes, uh oh, but apparently also Le Tour d'Argent has one of the best uh views of Paris. Most dishes at Le Bascu, uh, lots of uh by the glass wines at Tavon, etc.
+
+[14:55] etc. And then he's calling out Lyon to go to Bokusa's restaurant. Uh and I'm gonna put most of this stuff on just because it's like, you know, Gagnier, go to Gagnier in Paris. Uh I'm gonna go to the one he actually wants me to get out. He also says that quite a few Japanese chefs have opened excellent French uh based Japanese influenced uh restaurants in Paris.
+
+[15:12] Passage 53, uh Kai Hiramatsu, Stella Marie, a few others. Uh and then there's a huge long list of awesome uh sweets uh recommendations. So apparently Stan's real heart here is in uh the uh suites. And I'll add the one thing you want me to say. I'll shamelessly plug a recommendation for a personal favorite.
+
+[15:30] Do book a pastry class at Nicolas Bernardet's. Bernardet is a mayor of Rio defense, uh former teacher at the Cordon Blue, and his Saturday afternoon classes are the best value for money pastry teachings I could find. They tell me they speak English, e.g., they have foreign students doing internships and they all manage by speaking English. Not sure how it would work for a class, though. They are super nice, so just ask.
+
+[15:50] Classes at Le Notre School are more expensive, not as good humored, not taught by an MOF, but have the brand name and English can be guaranteed. Um for shopping, uh there's uh uh a bookstore in Paris called uh Library Gourmand, which I don't know about, but I wonder whether they have English books. My French sucks so hard. Um Getu will stock almost all the ingredients you could think of. Uh and Israel next to the Paris Town Hall is a bazaar of exotic food products.
+
+[16:16] Uh he recommends I recommended Bartolomey as a cheese shop. He recommends uh Marie Catrum, which I've actually been to, which is an amazing place. Uh and then etc. etc. So we're gonna put that entire uh recommendation list on El website, right?
+
+[16:27] Mm-hmm. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Still thinking about the Lady Lemon. Uh Dave Hammer and Jack.
+
+[16:34] No Jack today, though. So I'm gonna say Dave Hammer and Evan, because Jack, Jack is like so sad, maybe from Jolie, and he just won't stop by the studio. I don't know. Uh love your show, learned so much, and I'm almost caught up after tearing through the archives in the past few months. I have a preserving question.
+
+[16:48] I'm trying to replicate this Bulgarian pumpkin preserve that I had once when visiting friends uh in the Peace Corps in Bulgaria. This woman made a preserve that kept the shape uh that the slices of pumpkin have, but were soft and giving when you bite into them. They were preserved in sugar syrup. When I asked her how she did this, she said she had cured them in lime, pickling lime. Uh at the time I had no idea what she meant by this, but from listening to your show, I've gathered that she used pickling lime or some variation of that product.
+
+[17:14] I bought some pickling lime uh on Amazon and attempted it. The flavor was good, but the texture of mine was too crunchy. I soaked the pumpkin overnight in a fairly concentrated solution of lime. Two questions. One, if I shorten the soap time and dilute the solution, do you think it will get me closer to the desired texture?
+
+[17:30] And two, how long will this last? Even though I'm storing it in the fridge, I'm worried about being hazardous because of the low pH. I'm assuming you mean the high pH. You mean it's not acid enough, is what I'm assuming you're saying. My last batch seemed to last for over a month without problems, but am I playing with fire?
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+[17:44] Would adding citric acid to it change the flavor too much. Thanks and uh keep up the good work, uh Joe Anchovich. Now, a couple of things here. Um on the lime, what you want to do, first of all, for those of you that don't know, or you know, I don't know, whatever pickling lime uh is uh calcium hydroxide. Uh and you you can't really use uh like a lower uh you know lower concentration of it because pickling lime, calcium hydroxide is not very soluble in water at all.
+
+[18:13] In fact, when you buy lime paste uh Thai style, you buy this like lime paste, you just add it to water, you shake it, and you let all the stuff settle out, and what you're left with is a saturated lime solution, which is typically what you use. Now, when you are doing pickles, here's what's happening. So when you're doing um nystamization with this stuff, you're not only using you're using the calcium, you're using uh the fact that it's basic, right? That it's alkaline, has a high pH. Uh, and that's helping uh to mess with the uh this the you know the outside of the corn and allowing it to grind easier and a lot of other awesome effects.
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+[18:49] Just you know, go on the blog, it's still there and look up nyxtimalization. The when you're using it for firming things, you're not really using the um basicity so much. I mean, you you are in in one sense, because if you're gonna cook something, like if you were gonna cook the pumpkin uh after you've done it, the uh the basic uh the alkaline uh will will help it to stay uh the exact opposite, I guess. That's the exact opposite. Uh erase the last, just ignore the last couple of sentences I said.
+
+[19:18] But uh what you're looking for when you're cooking for firming things is the um is you're looking for the uh calcium, right? So when you the calcium in the calcium hydroxide will uh help crosslink the uh pectins and create a firmer thing and so that's how you know um that's how like a lot of the chefs do these kind of what they say ossified vegetables or you know we used to do all the time at the French culinary bananas that were soaked in uh in pickling uh lime and calcium hydroxide and they stay firm and so you can do bananas and you can sit there and you can cook them and they don't break you could like you could brutalize them and they don't break as opposed to normal bananas when you when you're you know making like a foster or something they fall apart. Now here's the issue uh this is pickling limes you know classically used in western preps for pickles and things like cucumbers uh because it firms up the cucumbers and uh you know you should still also by the way when you're doing uh you know cucumbers cut off the blossom and in case there's that you know the enzymes in there can cause softening but anyway so uh pickling lime uh causes uh the the calcium in there causes it to firm up now you can use other things like uh you can use uh you can use um uh calcium chloride and stuff like that as well but pickling lime classic now what you want to do though is uh soak it in water anytime you do a pickle uh and you firm the pickle with uh lime you first soak it in the lime solution and I don't think you need to soak it as long as you're soaking it frankly uh you have to soak it in water because you want to remove all the excess calcium hydroxide uh from the thing you don't want it to stay in there for a number of reasons one it's gonna keep getting harder the texture is gonna change it's gonna get weird I've had that happen I soaked cucumbers in it overnight once cut cucumbers in it overnight, they were gross, gross. Also, because it's alkaline, you're gonna be shifting. If you're making a pickle with vinegar, you can possibly shift the pH into a a region that's unsafe um and you know, because it's it's it's neutralizing some of the effects of the acidity, right?
+
+[21:15] So what they do typically is they'll soak the pickles in pure, they'll rinse them, then they'll soak them in pure water for a couple of hours, and then they'll do that soak like once, twice, three times sometimes to make sure that they've leached out all the excess calcium. And then you can go by uh go do your normal pickle recipe and you will have um you will have you know kept that um you will have kept it uh you know what was the word about firm without going too firm of being another thing people do is they do uh sometimes a light heat process on it to kill uh bacteria and to denature enzymes that might cause softening. And uh the pickle people, like you know, it recommends something in the range of 180 Fahrenheit. Uh I don't know, that's for cucumbers. Uh I don't know uh, and they keep it there for about like a like like 30 minutes or something.
+
+[22:04] I don't know what that's gonna do on pumpkin, whether pumpkin can withstand those kind of temperatures, because that's very close to the temperatures where the pectin starts breaking down up at like 185, something like that. But maybe a little lime in combination with that will work for you. Now that as to the other side, uh what's gonna grow in it, uh, you know, I need to see the recipe. Uh you know, I would be slightly nervous about um uh about keeping the stuff in there it without it having uh like some acidity uh to keep it low enough for for botulism to to not grow, because there's there's two things you gotta worry about, right? Is like is is botulism gonna grow in the uh actual liquid of the pickling thing.
+
+[22:46] Now, for instance, like if you have a very high sugar content, the the water activity is gonna be extremely low. If the water activity is extremely low, then no botulism can grow, it's not a problem. Uh if somehow the the pumpkin uh has enough uh syrup suffused into it such that it's water activity is low enough, then no botulism will grow in it. However, there are many situations where the pickling liquid itself does not support the growth of uh pathogens like botulism, but the inside of the product does. So there was a case where someone made um eggs, pickled eggs, in 1997, I think.
+
+[23:18] I looked it up on the CDC website, and they did uh pickled eggs, and the the solution itself um didn't uh support uh the growth of botulism uh but or I mean it I don't think it did, but the inside of the egg yolk uh was not at a point where it it was preventing botulism growth. And they had done the classic thing where you prick it with a toothpick to get the stuff to go in, but they hadn't gotten enough penetration of the vinegar apparently, or it wasn't strong enough, typical beet pickled egg, and there was a boatload of botulism uh toxin on the inside of the egg yolk, and it didn't kill the guy though. But anyway, so uh if you want, send us the actual recipe, and I could try to see whether it's safe or I could pass it off to a food safety expert and see whether they know where the actual recipe that you have is safe. We see the procedures, but that's how you use the pickling line. What do you think?
+
+[24:04] Good? Yeah, uh good. Also, do you really want citric acid as the flavor? I mean, it depends on the pickle. Like most pickl, I don't think of most pickles have as having kind of a citric flavor.
+
+[24:14] I associates them either with lactic flavor on a natural fermentation, like a lactic acid bacteria, or with a vinegar. I haven't had any pickles that are done solely with uh citric acid. Well, I guess like like preserved lemons, I guess you could kind of think of as a fermentation that's done in a salt solution, which citric acid is the preventative. I don't know. Interesting.
+
+[24:35] Um Hey Bushwick crew, I have a cocktail issue that I was hoping you could help me with. Uh this is from Brandon Johnson in Charlotte, North Carolina. Uh, what is the general shelf life of clarified lime juice? I am trying to pre-batch gin and tonics from my wedding in corny kegs, and I'm wondering how long in advance I can make it without compromising the quality. Well, ascorbic acid helped me.
+
+[24:55] I was also considering rapid infusing the gin with lime zest to replace the clarified juice, but that doesn't seem ideal. Any other tips or warnings on pre-batch kegging gin and tonics would be much appreciated. Brandon Johnson, Charlotte, North Carolina. Alright, listen. Listen, listen.
+
+[25:11] Lime juice doesn't last. Lime juice, it does not last. It lasts not at all. Like one day. Well, let me let me give you first of all, congratulations on the on the wedding.
+
+[25:21] And as a married man myself, uh, let me say this. Uh your uh spouse to be is not gonna be overly psyched if you're clarifying a bunch of lime juice the day before your wedding, right? Because honestly, you could probably use less yesterday's clarity lime today, right? But like they're not gonna be happy. I know this because the day before my wedding, I was welding the cake stand that we use for the cake the day before the wedding, and like I was all covered in filth, and this is not this is not ideal.
+
+[25:50] You know what I mean? Like uh, but uh another way to go, and I would start testing now. I don't know how long you have, is you know, lime juice goes through kind of instead of doing a straight old school gin and tonic with fresh lime flavor, you might want to consider doing kind of a cordial. And I think Tony uh Canollaro in his book has his lime cordial recipe. And so if you want it, then it's gonna be like a much better version of like a rose's lime juice, but that stuff has already gone through an aging procedure, and so it is what it is.
+
+[26:20] It's not the taste of fresh lime, but it is a good taste of lime, right? And you might find that you like it. And there's also um some tonic recipes out there, most notably the um the kind of uh you know, Morgenthaler style, Portland style uh tonics uh that have a kind of a cordial y flavor in them if you if you follow their syrup recipes. And you go that way. I would not recommend, however, using uh unless you have like a good centrifuge thing using the bark because that is gonna foam.
+
+[26:51] Uh when I made uh when I made uh quinine syrup using actual conchona bark, uh the there's a lot more bubble holding capacity in the simple syrup than there was when I used quinine sulfate USP as the uh base for the tonic, right? And if you're gonna keg these things and pump them out, you're gonna have some serious, serious foaming problems, right? And I think I said this before, it's like you know, like most times when people are kegging kegging uh cocktails and putting them out, they lose a bul a bunch of carbonation for of a variety of reasons. But before I get on that, let's finish off on the I'll get on that in a sec. Before we do that, let's get back on the on the lime for a second.
+
+[27:28] So it seems to me here are your choices. One, you use something that you have someone else clarify the lime juice for you the day of, like a buddy, right? Then you have the cocktail on the keg and it has everything but the lime juice, and then someone just pours a little bit of clarified lime juice in at the very end. This is how we do it at the bar, by the way. We don't do it in kegs, obviously, we do it in bottles, but that's how the bar handles it.
+
+[27:51] So the gin and tonic without the lime lasts almost indefinitely, right? If it's kept properly, uh, it's carbonated uh and nothing in it breaks down. The sugar is fine, the you know, quinine's fine, the gin is fine, the water's fine, and it just rides. Um, then um you just add a little clarity at the end, and if you have someone that's willing to make it for you, like the day of, then you know, that's good. And it doesn't take that much lime, especially if you're on the drier side, right?
+
+[28:14] Um, but then you have to trust your catering people to like pour it in properly, etc. etc. Uh, but it's a way one way to go. Uh another way to go is to do the cordial thing, like I said, like like construct a tonic recipe that has more of a lime cordial flavor instead of a fresh lime flavor, and then just put a wedge of lime with the actual drink such that people can squeeze fresh lime into the cordial flavor and get that brightness that you get from fresh lime. That's a very good solution.
+
+[28:43] By the way, the lime thing, you know how like limes like you know how uh like limes are ridiculously expensive now? Hopefully, your wedding is after May. I'm being told that the lime market's gonna kind of untighten a little bit after May when the next kind of crop comes in. You know, lime I was reading that lime uh a tractor trailer of limes is now over a hundred thousand dollars, like in Mexico, worth over a hundred thousand dollars in Mexico, so that's why like lime trucks are you know, people are like, you know, have armed escorts with their lime trucks now. Freaky.
+
+[29:10] Anyway, uh and the limes we're getting now just so crappy, so crappy, so crappy. Anyway, um, where was I? So uh yeah, so hopefully you're getting married after the lime crunch is over. Um so then uh those are the first two choices. The last choice, and now I know you're not gonna like this probably, but hear me out, is to make uh uh uh lime acid, right?
+
+[29:32] And lime acid, so lime juice is roughly this gives you just a like a uh you know rough gauge. Lime juice is roughly 6% acidity. Of that six percent acidity, it is roughly uh uh four percent, so four grams uh out of uh every hundred grams of it uh are uh citric acid and two grams of it are malic acid, right? Citric and malic. Like that's it.
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+[29:58] Now that makes kind of a lime soda acidity. It's nice. And you and some people don't add the malic, but they're kind of dufoids because the the thing about malic acid, aside from the fact that it tastes different from citric acid, and if you don't have the malloc, it doesn't taste like lime, is that malic acid has a different uh uh attack and decay profile from citric acid. So the acidity from citric acid is present very quickly and uh and fades fairly quickly. The acidity from malic acid uh hits a little bit later and lingers longer.
+
+[30:25] So you to really get anything like the taste of lime, a profile of lime and an acid, you need that blend. Two part citric to one part uh mallet, six percent solution pours just like uh lime juice. A little, it's a little more acidic, but it's in that range. It pours similar to lime juice. Now, if you really want this sucker to taste authentic without actually having any lime in it, you need to buy, and it's not expensive, but you know, a lifetime supply doesn't cost that much because you only need a tiny tiny bit, is succinic acid.
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+[30:53] Uh S U C C I can't spell out loud. Succinic acid. And succinic acid taste it on its own, tastes like you like bit into your tongue of bloody, nasty, bitter, metallic, horrible. But a couple of grains, it's a tiny bit, like just minute minute uh amounts of succinic acid into this acid blend. And I've done these taste tests time and time again.
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+[31:14] Minute amounts of that added to it will increase the authenticity of a straight acid blend in terms of its lime flavor, like inordinately. And again, those acids, which except for the succinic acid, which you have to source at a chemical supply house like Spectrum, make sure you get USP, which is you know the grade that is, you know, the pharmaceutical grade stuff. Um, um you know, with the exception of that, you can get the rest of the stuff at a homebrew shop. And then that again can be supplemented with a lime wedge and it'll last forever. Uh, ascorbic acid is not gonna help.
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+[31:43] I think you asked about this, I have to remember back. Uh it's not gonna help uh keep the lime juice from lasting for longer. So I either say, have a buddy make it go fresh, go cordial with a lime wedge as a garnish, or do the acids and uh let it ride. When you're going to keg, however, here's the key with kegging. Um cocktails foam a lot more than beer and a lot more than soda.
+
+[32:06] Why? First of all, alcohol, alcoholic products foam a lot more than uh non-alcoholic products do because alcohol lowers the surface tension and increases the viscosity of the liquids, which causes boatloads of foaming. What you want to do, uh so that's a problem, and gin and tonics are typically higher in alcohol and have more carbonation in them than something like a beer. So a beer, right, like a setup that will cause, you know, a minor amount of foaming on a beer will cause a huge amount of foaming on a cocktail because the cocktail has more CO2 in it, and a cocktail uh has uh more alcohol in it. So you're shafted two times right there.
+
+[32:47] Uh so foaming is really going to be an issue. You're gonna need to get your cocktail as cold as is humanly possible, right? And you're gonna want to make sure that it's completely and utterly clear that there's nothing in it that's going to cause any sort of foaming at all, which is why I don't recommend using uh like actual kinchona bark in this situation, because I think it's gonna cause a lot of foaming on you. When you are uh dispensing out of the corny keg, I'm assuming you have a coal plate in ice, you're gonna want to go through two separate circuits of the cold plate. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, cold plate is a length of stainless steel tube that is cast into a block of aluminum that's kept in ice.
+
+[33:24] And that's how things are chilled down at bars. You go from a like a room temperature, uh, like just sticking the keg in ice water is not going to be good enough. But you stick the keg in uh, you know, you you pass it through this aluminum tube, it's in ice, and you can get it down. The problem is cold plate circuits aren't long enough to uh get the product as cold, they don't have as big a delta C temperature drop as you want. So, you what you want to do, delta T rather, what you want to do is put it through two circuits that also gives you more room because remember, cocktails are going to be at a higher pressure than beer is because they have more CO2 in them, right?
+
+[33:57] And so, because of that, they need a longer space with more drag to slow down as they come out so that you're not spraying out of the end of your gun. So, two circuits, it's gonna give you a longer line, which is gonna give you colder, and it's also going to uh give you uh kind of less foaming on the outside. You also need to get something better than a picnic tap. You need to get a pre-mix valve, which is ideal, or the what's called a beer gun valve from CM Becker, that's just called a squeeze valve. Those are obtainable, not as good as an actual pre-mix valve.
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+[34:26] Uh, but those two things together will help. And you if you salt your ice, you want to measure the temperature. Don't get it so cold that you freeze out the stuff, but you can get it like below zero by salting your ice and measuring the temperature at the cold plate and getting it right. But make sure you get a buddy to do that because do not be measuring the temperature of your cold plate on your wedding. But should we take a break?
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+[34:48] Sure. Let's take a commercial break. Right back with cooking issues. It's not really a commercial break though. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org.
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+[35:49] The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. And oh welcome back.
+
+[36:14] Um okay, so we have a question in. Let me scroll down to it. Uh Deer Cooking Issues Posse. Uh just got back from Tokyo and had some great food. I want to go back to Tokyo.
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+[36:28] Don't you? Sure. Sure. Where would you like if you were gonna go back to one of the places we've gone to where would it be? Um I guess the only one I went to with you is Tokyo.
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+[36:39] No, we went to London, we went to I later for London. We went we went on that event, remember? Oh, the other one, yeah. Um so I guess it's just London or Tokyo. So or like, you know, a lot of places, New Orleans.
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+[36:52] No. Uh speaking of which, uh going up to Williams to do a talk tomorrow, right? Yes. Doing a talk tomorrow and on Thursday. Uh talking to the cooking and science class up there.
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+[37:05] Trying to figure out what we're gonna do, but if you happen to be in the uh area of the Williams College, uh we will be there uh talking, doing stuff, cooking stuff, doing things, cooking issues. Um just got back from Tokyo, had some great food. Went to the Skiji fish market on the day they were closed. Oh, that sucks, huh? Sakiji was uh uh look, Matt.
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+[37:26] I hate to I hate to do this to you, but man, Sukiji is awesome. Awesome. Mark Ladner was uh having a good time at Sakiji too. A lot of styrofoam, though. Amazing amount of styrofoam.
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+[37:35] Uh even you like you enjoyed Tsakiji, right, Sus? Yeah. Crazy fish. Uh amazing market, just amazing. Um went to Sakichi Fish Market on the day they were closed.
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+[37:43] Also went to an Ito-style sushi bar that has been in business for 147 years and is still in the same family. Effing amazing. Uh anyway, I love me some ramen and I've made several attempts to make it from scratch. I am un un I uh I am unable to get the great texture you get with the real stuff. And I'm wondering if you had any suggestions of good ramen cookbooks and or websites.
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+[38:02] When I searched the webs, I found a bunch of books about uses for instant ramen, but I'm looking for the real deal. I have Chang's book, and while this broth is great, uh its noodles leave something to be desired. No disrespect to the man. I would also like to explore more styles of broth. Tokyo Hokkaido.
+
+[38:17] Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matt. Okay. Uh Matt, first of all, uh I'm I don't know why I didn't do this. I went on the internet.
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+[38:25] I didn't go get my my book to see what uh noodle recipe is in the book. But they've done a lot of work since the book uh on um consway, right? So the the the the trick with with those kind of ramen noodles, which uh, you know, the good ones are a subset of uh alkaline noodles, is consway. Consui is, you know, the the alkaline um the alkaline salt mix that you can get, or you could use other alkaline things as well to get the same um kind of effect. So, you know, McGee uh wrote an article in the New York Times uh back when he was still doing the Curious Cook column, you know, a couple of years back on taking baking soda, which is not strong enough, that's sodium bicarbonate, uh, which is not strong enough to really make a kind of good uh alkaline kind of consui thing.
+
+[39:11] Uh and so some of the recipes on on the lines use the the baking soda, which is kind of you know not useful, or they make like an egg pasta, which is also not the same. Uh and uh he takes and makes uh uh bakes the bicarbonate in an oven. He has specs for it, and I forget what they are, thereby turning it into sodium carbonate, which is uh relatively much more basic and can be used to make a uh a consue uh uh uh or to use make an alkaline noodle. So now what happens when you're adding the base to the noodle, uh, you know, the alkaline uh substance to the to the flour, is that it's gonna turn yellow, and the the turning yellow isn't kind of what you care about, although you know, for people that eat yellow alkaline noodles, and then that's what they're called, Y A N yellow alkaline noodles, and there's a bunch of papers on the internet about it uh you know in the scholarly literature. Um the yellow is an indication of quality, but the yellow isn't really what's the most important thing.
+
+[40:08] The most important thing about it is the textural changes because uh switching the pH of the dough radically affects the way the gluten works in it, right? So uh by shifting the pH into the more alkaline range, you're uh making the gluten much more elastic. And that's really what you're looking for in uh in the ramen, right? You need to keep that gluten nice and elastic and bouncy because you're gonna be serving the noodle in a hot broth and so it can get overcooked almost instantly, right? I mean, that's what everyone says.
+
+[40:41] You have to slurp up those noodles as fast as you can uh because otherwise the noodle's gonna go uh mushy on you. Uh and you want it bouncy and springy. So the conway is gonna be the thing. So I don't know if that's the the problem you were having is uh you know the the lack of the consue. Things like egg aren't gonna help you out with that as much.
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+[40:57] I think you have to use the alkaline noodle. Any good uh like Chinese grocery will have uh con sue uh it's labeled a bunch of different things, but you can see it. It's uh you know, it's got the it comes as a water already made. Uh and you know, uh I think Kenji Alt Lopez posts a did he know he doesn't post the recipe because he says that all of his ramen attempts have sucked making ramen noodles. I think he goes a lot into the broths and stuff, but he says that the noodles that he's made uh uh he doesn't like them.
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+[41:23] Anyway, um I don't have any good uh information because I've never made uh the ramen style ones myself on the actual technique of making the noodles. So it's not like other noodle styles that I've worked on, like you know, the uh pulled noodles that you that you know, or the soba cutting, which I have worked on, I could talk more about. So I don't really know much about the physical production of the noodles, but in my kind of wrong opinion, I I mean I think the the recipe the recipe is gonna be much more important. Let's like, for instance, on soba, right? Like good cutting is amazing, but the actual hard part isn't, I mean, the cutting is hard to get it right and to make it nice, but really the important part of getting sober right is getting the moisture, getting the dough texture right by manipulating the dough such that the moisture and the texture come together at the same time to create that kind of perfect soba dough.
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+[42:18] So then even if you're a complete dill weed and your knife skills suck and your noodles are ugly and they don't uh aren't the right shape, they will still be delicious because you've gotten the dough right. So the actual fabrication of it isn't necessarily as important as getting the texture of the dough right. But since I haven't made a lot of ramen myself, I can't really help you there, just other than to say that you're gonna want to go into uh consui into yellow alkaline noodles. And you can look that up and and I'm sure you'll be able to find lots of recipes that uh tell you how to use it. I will say this other thing.
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+[42:52] Everyone hates on the fried noodles, but I like I'm not saying they're the same, they're not authentic, whatever, but I actually happen to like noodles that have been like defridrated or whatever they call it. Do you like those things? Styles, you know, the noodles like instant noodles, you like them or no? Mm-hmm. I think I like them.
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+[43:07] I'm they're not the same. I'm not saying that they're they're as good or anything like that, but I think they have their place, and everyone hates on them all the time. All the time. I'm gonna work on it. I uh I don't have any time right now, but when I get a minute's time, I'm gonna work on some high-end like fried dehydrated noodles, like not like BS fried dehydrated noodles that you get in the ramen packets.
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+[43:28] But uh I'm gonna I'm gonna work on the I guarantee you there's a really good application for it. I'm gonna I'll be back on that at some point. Uh okay. Um I would also like to explore oh, also I would also like to explore more styles of broth, Tokyo Hokkaido. Any suggestions would be gra greatly appreciated.
+
+[43:44] Uh Kenji Alt Lopez on the Sirius Eats has like 18 or 19 posts on different ramen styles and like a very lengthy kind of uh pork, you know, uh uh one, you know, from the South uh listing, and also some links to some other websites that are specifically about Ram and different styles. So rather than kind of list that stuff out now, I would just go to the Serious Eats and look up Kenji's posts on ramen. Because the other thing good thing about the post that Kenji's uh doing on the on the thing is that um, you know, kind of he kind of lays out what all his assumptions are and kind of what he likes and what he doesn't like. Uh and so you know, you can kind of tell whether, you know, whether or not you agree or disagree, which is always a good thing to do in recipes. If people let you know ahead of time kind of what your predilections are, like I tell you what I think a good French fry is, then you know which one of my instructions are good or bad based on what I'm aiming at, right?
+
+[44:42] Because there's no there's no perfect ramen, there's no perfect anything. There is what I am shooting for or what you want to have, and then how good are you at achieving that goal, right? That's really all there is. Anyway, uh hopefully uh that helps. So uh a little while ago, uh a couple weeks ago, I asked for people to write in uh their worst kind of Yelp uh Yelp situations.
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+[45:08] And uh I got a lot of uh people who were hating on the on the on the Yelp. Um but here's what here's how how it happened. I was looking up uh a restaurant that you know uh some friends of mine had, and this is the this is the thing that pissed me off. And here's a particular thing that pisses me off. By the way, I think Yelp is extremely useful, right?
+
+[45:28] I think like I uh don't worry, it's Saz is where I'm gonna go. I'm gonna talk like two minutes on it. So, like, like I think Yelp is extremely uh kind of useful uh for certain things and helpful and you know, uh but here's the kind of thing that that that I wish that there was some sort of like uh something for people that owned restaurants where they could go and and bitch out specific Yelp users. Listen to this Yelp review from February of this year uh uh of a restaurant. The burger was phenomenal, right?
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+[45:59] Uh but the ambiance and the staff are just too hipster for my flavor. Get this. Staff was friendly and was willing to go above and beyond to accommodate my friends' kosher dietary limitations. I will give this place another try for the bar scene, and we'll definitely come back for the burger and possibly try some of the other dishes. Alright.
+
+[46:21] So, burger phenomenal. Staff was friendly, willing to go above and beyond to accommodate the friends' uh dietary limitations, but two hipster, so I I forget it was either two or like two or three stars. It's ridiculous. This is what is wrong with the world. Like some moron can go and admit that this restaurant had was like bending over backwards to help them out, and then they knock them on something like that.
+
+[46:46] Um so I got a lot of people like like I say, straight up hate it hating on on the Yelp. In fact, there's uh someone sent me uh a website that was like uh what was it? It's called uh spelled out fuelpertumbler.com. I don't think they update that uh anymore. Uh but a bunch of people have sent me in really, really crappy, uh really, really crappy Yelp reviews.
+
+[47:10] But I think you know, people who are in the business, like we need to get over the complete hatred of the Yelp because it you know, it's important for the customers to have some sort of venue to go do this thing. There's gotta be some better way for us to not let it like because you know, you read a bad Yelp about your place and it kind of rips your heart out. I think people don't really understand the Yelp these Yelpers who are kind of sitting around in their chonis and typing things. I don't really think that they understand that they are uh like kind of hurting real people. First of all, that they're actually like hurting businesses and that they're hurting real live people.
+
+[47:48] So I'm gonna think more on this and see whether I can come up with an actual decent thesis uh on the Yelp that that makes any sense. But I I welcome more kind of feedback on the Twitter on Yelp, and we'll talk more about it next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[48:25] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hello, do it yourself. Ever thought about gardening? If you can build that window box, you can build a raised bed in your backyard. Bonnie veggie and herb plants in raised beds make a fast weekend project with a big payback. Fresh, grow them yourself tomatoes and peppers, kale, basil, and thyme, and so much more.
+
+[0:21] Bonnie plants are healthy and strong and help jumpstart your garden. So get growing. Plans and how-tos at BonniePlants.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:48] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave On, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn! Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual by Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:02] Good. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Got Jack in the booth today.
+
+[1:05] Hey. Good old fashioned, good old-fashioned uh cooking issues. Last week my tires blew out in my car. For real? Yeah, that's actually why I wasn't here.
+
+[1:13] For real, your tires blew out. For real. Like while you were driving? Yeah, I was kind of flat, two of them, and I was like, let me drive to the gas station and fill them up, and then you know. Was it like uh was it like kaplow?
+
+[1:25] Or was it kind of yeah. Well, did were you able to keep control of the car? Yeah, I I I made it into a repair shop and got it replaced. Yeah, I had a little bit of a car corridor today. My uh old school, like you don't think of this happening anymore with uh your car, but battery dead.
+
+[1:41] Battery dead. Is that way you're late? Dead. Yeah. We're I was going to work on the puffing gun, which we'll talk about in a minute, but the battery was completely uh muerto.
+
+[1:50] And so I haven't had to have a jump since I was in like high school, you know? Uh, but yeah, it works. Turns out I still know how to jumpstart a car. Uh also joined in the studio today. Emma Boast.
+
+[2:05] Emma Boast from the Museum of Food and Drink. Hey, what's uh so what's your title there at the museum? I am the program director, so I work with uh Peter, who's the executive director of MoFed and uh a whole slew of amazing volunteers. Yeah, yeah, nice. So uh so Emma's here today.
+
+[2:20] Uh actually I forced her to come on because uh I'm a little bit late because what we're doing this morning, as some of you might know, uh last summer we uh got a kick we had did a Kickstarter and uh we paid for this uh puffing gun. Now puffing gun is uh an ex explosive puffing device that uh was used to make breakfast cereals, one of the big I like to call it the big three of the initial breakfast cereals, right? So you your initial big three were uh your flaking rollers, right? Three, right? No, two, three.
+
+[2:53] Well, I guess you had your your crumbled, your granula kind of granola-esque cereals. Right, that's the or that's the or cereal, right? The or cereal, and uh by the way, remember, started by uh kind of uh religious uh health zealots. That's a fair term. Zealots, yeah.
+
+[3:11] Uh so that meant to kind of taste uh bad and be dry and just kind of you know one of the original cereals names was uh Pablum. Pablum. I've got a caller. Oh, caller. Well, we'll get back to the puffing gun in a minute.
+
+[3:24] Caller, you're on the air. Hey David and crew, how y'all doing? Doing all right. Howdy. Very well.
+
+[3:29] Cool. I had uh uh two part questions. Um one of them was I had recently seen a video that Jose Andres had done, and he had made a mimosa with Clementine air, he said. And he did it with uh soylectin. Yeah, he loves that stuff.
+
+[3:44] Yeah, and uh I tried to do it at home and I just modified it by doing it with blood orange. Right. But since we didn't have any fresh blood oranges I used, uh just regular um like it was it was already pastures. I got it from Whole Foods, but it was blood orange juice, and for some reason I just couldn't make uh the air the same way that he does it ended up being real goopy. Yeah, what was he what was he using?
+
+[4:10] Uh well give me give me his whole technique because I haven't seen the video. Yeah, it was uh he was making kava and then he used fresh squeezed uh clementine juice, and I don't know if that's why one of the effects that mine didn't work at all. Yeah, I mean what was he what he what what was the procedure with the soy lessine? He was making mimosas. No, what was the procedure with the soy lecithin?
+
+[4:30] So he used the immersion uh not the immersion circuit the uh like a stick blender? Yes, the stick blender. Right. And uh he just put like about a spoonful or so of uh soy lectin inside of the uh clementine juice and just made like an air. Right.
+
+[4:46] Like an air out of the clementine juice. Okay, so put that on top of it. And what did and uh and he was using presumably the powdered stuff, right? Because there's also the granular stuff and there's the powder stuff. Powder stuff much better.
+
+[4:57] Hopefully you had the powder stuff. Uh okay. So you can add almost any kind of uh kind of uh you know he he added no extra whipping agent, right? Just the uh he added just the soy lecithin to uh to for the for the bubbling effect, right? No, no whipping agent.
+
+[5:14] All right. Yeah, yeah, just that. And and you've had luck using this uh the stick blender technique in the past, or do you need some pointers on the stick blender technique in general? I mean, probably a new techniques altogether because I definitely just tried it bad. Like I I just tried to attempt it on a brunch and it was it was not as a year just off of looking.
+
+[5:33] It didn't look as hard as it wasn't clearly was. Right, okay. So there's a trick. It's possible. I'm not a huge fan.
+
+[5:44] I'm not I've never I've never like been like a soy uh less than guy. But what you should do is practice on something that foams naturally. Like I was wondering if you've used this kind of technique in the past, like carrot juice is a natural foamer. You don't need to do anything to it at all. Just use carrot juice, you know, juice carrots and and do it.
+
+[6:02] But the trick with uh with any of those kind of uh foam ups uh with a stick blender is you want to uh have not like you you like a uh you know a s qu small quantity in the bottom of a container, stick the stick blender in it, and then you go on a and here's the key that I don't know whether they tell you about in the video or not, but you need to turn the entire thing at an angle such that a portion of the stick blender's blades come out of the liquid on every revolution. And then when you're holding it at that angle, you turn it on high, and as it flips up and out of the thing, it's gonna be whipping air and creating a froth that will rise above the surface. So that's why when they're doing that technique, you'll see them all the time, and it's not just because they want to look jaunty, they need to have that that container. I usually do it in quartz or whatever, on on uh on uh an angle, usually pretty steep, like 45 or better, so that the blades can whip in and out. But you did that or no?
+
+[7:02] No, definitely didn't do that. I just held it directly in there. Almost like a reverse blender as it usually is, you know. So I definitely didn't get any air into it. Right.
+
+[7:11] So the trick with with any of those foam things is he's adding a little bit of the soy less than to stabilize the bubbles a little bit. You're praying that there's a kind of enough uh solids in the in the in the juice to kind of hold those bubbles once they're formed with with with that. And then you just tilt it at an angle. You give it a try. Carrot juice is a good one to do it with.
+
+[7:30] Tills it at an angle and you hold it and it'll it'll make like a froth on the top. And then you pull out the stick blender and I'm sure you saw this part on the thing is he then they take a spoon usually and they harvest the stuff off the top of the liquid and then you can do that a bunch because there's extra stuff in there before it's really depleted of the surface act the stuff needed to make a foam. So they'll sit there and they'll just rehit it almost to order and then harvest each time the it'll settle down after a while and then you can just zit zitz zit hit it again. But if you look if you look at the video I'm pretty sure you'll see uh him holding that thing at an angle. Okay.
+
+[8:06] Yeah I'll definitely check that out I'm kind of surprised though that they didn't uh I'm kind of surprised didn't uh uh mention that 'cause it's kind of key aspect of the technique. The you know other things you might want to try um is uh it be but it depends. If like so those kinds of foams are usually extremely airy like extremely airy right if you want something a little bit uh denser um a methyl cell F50 uh is really cool that makes more of like a shaving cream or a Guinness y kind of head and you're gonna want to use like 0.8% so like eight grams per liter and then you you blend that in in like a in a blender to hydrate it. Let it hydrate for a long time. Sometimes it takes a while to hydrate.
+
+[8:51] And then you can whip that thing in a kitchen aid and it and it foams up. Now you need to have enough solids to get it to work right. So if you don't, you can add some um maltodextrin, uh, you know, not like a crazy one, like enzorbit, just something like a bulking agent or uh or a whipping agent like that. You can get the like an orange juice to to come up into like almost like a shaving cream, but it'll be a little bit denser than uh but much more persistent than the one that you were um dealing with with there. You know, what like a good one for that would be actually do they make pureees of that?
+
+[9:23] They do make purees of that, but I don't know how dense they are. You need a little bit of pect and a little bit of structure in uh in the with the methyl cell to get it to work. Oh, well. And then I mean that's that's great. I'll definitely try that for next time.
+
+[9:36] And the other one that I had, the other question was I am trying to make a healthier, I guess, ice cream for my parents. They I really have a sweet tooth, obviously. And uh the one that I was trying to make was out of a coconut milk. Right. Instead.
+
+[9:52] And the issue that I had is everything flavor-wise came up comes up good, but when I put it inside the fridge, it gets really hard. And I'm trying to see whatever commercial techniques because any regular uh ice cream you put inside there will stay uh still airy and fluffy, and I don't know if it's a combination of gums that it should put in there. Or what I mean, it's it's just coconut water substituting I'm sorry, coconut milk substituting traditional milk or whipping milk. Right. But so but it's substituting for both the cream and the milk, right?
+
+[10:24] Yeah. Right. So a couple of things. Probably your your fat concentration is probably a little low. Uh and um, but you know, you can obviously sorbet's work, right?
+
+[10:34] So the other thing is probably your sugar level might be a little bit low. Is it is it is it a lot less sweet than uh typical ice cream? Uh I would say per quart uh uh I put about a cup typically as a sweetener and sugar. Now I have to do some math here. Uh so like I I can't I can't think of it in terms of see quarter cup.
+
+[10:56] A cup well weighs roughly eight ounces, and so a quart is four. So four sorry, I'm doing some stuff in my head, right? So you're so you're saying you're putting in eight ounces of uh sugar into um thirty-two ounces of product. That gives you a total weight of forty and eight. Yeah, so that's like sixteen.
+
+[11:22] That should be sweet enough, right? Right? That ta it tastes sweet enough then, right? Yeah. Huh.
+
+[11:27] Because usually like overly solid things are due and like textural problems like that are due to um lack of sugar, uh or you know, especially if it's good when it's soft, it means it's free. It's you know you say it's good when it's soft, right? Yeah, yeah. Definitely taste wise before I I make it hard, it tastes great. Yeah, but in other words, when you initially churn it before you before it turns hard, that it it tastes fine when it's before it's been aged, right?
+
+[11:55] Exactly, yes. Yeah. Okay. So t typically o overly hard on storage is going to be uh just uh it's get getting too solid and you control the solids by controlling the meltdown rate, and you control the meltdown rate by how much sugar is in it. So I mean um I I guess it's hard for me to do the numbers on the fly.
+
+[12:16] Uh I got to I have to go back and remember exactly what my target bricks for is for a sorbet. You want to treat it like a sorbet basically. Uh even though it has the addition of the 'cause it's easier to calculate. Uh that's how I calculate. I do my s all my sorbets with coconut milk.
+
+[12:30] Um but uh I usually they're fairly sweet, right? So I tend to use coconut cream because it's got uh sugar in it, and I it's so easy for me. Like I can just buy like a package of puree and then like a package of coconut uh I mean a can of coconut cream. I know this sounds like real, like like I'm not working, but it you know, but it's easy for me because I do it at home for the kids and uh mix them together and it works fantastically well. Um I think may I just have to recalculate.
+
+[13:00] Do the recalculation on the sugar uh and go uh look up because I don't have it off the top of my head, like the uh target bricks for like a sorbet. Ignore the fat content of the um the fat content of the coconut milk to start with because it's not gonna hurt it's not gonna hurt you in terms of your calculations, and figure out a target bricks for it and then see whether or not you're going a little bit too low on the sugar. Uh, because did it taste kind of less sweet than normal? Good but less sweet than normal. No, I mean it tastes like everything was good.
+
+[13:31] It's usually more so, like you said, just in the age and it gets too hard inside the fridge, or nothing for it as a uh commercialized kind of now. Yeah. And it will still go soft. But I mean you could add some whipping agents to it to try and uh increase the uh increase the air. Um commercial coconut milk already has some uh usual usually has some some product in it to stop it from breaking because regular coconut milk will break when you heat it, and canned stuff usually typically doesn't.
+
+[14:01] I don't know if you're making it yourself or not. Um but if you're using canned that typically will have some stuff in it. But you could add um some sort of a uh thickener like uh locust bean or or or a flavor free guar to it and see whether that uh helps you helps you out a little bit. But if this sucker tastes good um uh when it's soft, it's probably not an overrun problem. So like if it's overly dense when it gets hard and and but it it doesn't temper out nicely either, like it doesn't when you pull it out of the freezer for a little while, does it scoop nicely eventually and get back to good texture, or does it just turn like a rock and stays a rock until it's melted?
+
+[14:41] No, I mean it densely goes back to a nice texture, you can definitely scoop it again. Right, so it could it could be density. It could be density, in which case you might want to up the solid. So it's coconut milk and what? Coconut milk, I definitely put the coconut cream in too, like you're saying, and I do use the can.
+
+[14:58] Right. And then um every once in a while I'll throw some liqueur in there as well, depending on what flavor I'm doing. Right. That'll make it softer. But I wonder whether you need a higher solids content, whether it's not it's just not uh churning enough.
+
+[15:11] You know what I'm saying? Like you might want to sometimes I'll put in like um I'll put in coconut nectar to hopefully make like a what it's definitely nectar, like a syrup instead of actual sugar. I don't know if that could be a problem, perhaps. No, I mean like if you added too much sugar, it would get too soft, right? And it wouldn't freeze properly, it wouldn't get too hard.
+
+[15:31] So if this stuff does come back to being uh kind of in good temper again and it's sweet enough, then it could be that you're just not getting enough overrun, and so you need to add some um something that's gonna increase the uh the actual overrun, the whi the the whipping ability of it, in which case that would be more solids probably. Um and then maybe something uh that aerates it more. You know what? Like if anyone's listening that has a good kind of uh uh a breakdown on this, because usually when I'm doing uh coconut milk it's not straight coconut milk it's coconut milk and a fruit puree and the pectins that are in the fruit purees are helping me with um with solids with body and I think maybe that's what you know what's going on if you see whether or not you have the same problem when you do um when you do like um a flavor that has more solids like I've done uh really good uh coconut milk uh sorbet style stuff is with uh chocolate like chocolate coconut milk sorbet is is fantastic so you take like coconut milk uh and andor cream and uh you know melt chocolate into it and I usually also add uh cocoa powder because I want really dense kind of chocolate flavor and that texture comes out pretty pretty nicely so you might want to um see whether or not it's just a solids issue whether you just don't have enough actual solids in it. For sure excellent I'll I'll definitely try that out.
+
+[16:57] But again this is off the top of my head so hopefully I'm not off base and people like that guy does not know what the hell he's talking about. No not at all. I mean as a matter of fact I was just gonna say that I've listened to as many of your previous podcasts that you've done have become neutral and you'll be a fan that's all I've I've watched two hardware talk and uh I can't wait for the the cocktail books to come out and then your shears all donated a few times over waiting for for the millin to come out. Cool well appreciate well it's uh we're uh we're actually talking to our suppliers right now uh styles right we're looking we're looking we're hopefully gonna be on time we might be a couple weeks late right a couple I hope not we'll we'll we're gonna we're gonna update more as we go but I'll tell you something I won't be talking out of my behind in the cocktail book that thing has been thoroughly vetted thoroughly vetted uh in fact like you know what the one of the weird things that we had uh uh uh recipe change on was um with the comparian soda like so we have on the bar now we have a a recipe that's the Booker and DAX take on comparian soda and um you know the the benefit is you can carbonate the whole thing so although you know Nastasha here likes any comparian soda variant right no matter regardless of like how uh well or poorly it is carbonated uh you know at Booker Index we like to carbonate everything right and uh we're also kind of people rib us because uh our drinks tend to be like everyone claims that our drinks are high in alcohol even though they're the same amount of alcohol that you have in any in any beverage so we do the uh compare and soda and we use uh champagne acid so champagne acid is a mixture of lactic acid and um tartaric and the reason is is because although the grapes have a balance of tartaric and malic acid most champagnes one of the notable exceptions is Krug did you do you are you you like Krug you ever yeah so you notice how Krug Stas is shaking her head she's think so happy thinking about champagne that she can't like words can't even come to her mouth. But she uh uh Krug has a kind of uh an appley note on it when you kind of like a green fresh appley note on it and that's because of the malic acid because Krug does not go through malolactic fermentation whereas um most champagnes do and when they go through malolactic uh fermentation the acids turn from malic to lactic, and so the champagne acid we use is a blend of uh lactic and tartaric.
+
+[19:20] But the weird, here's where it gets weird. So we add that instead of a tw uh squeeze of lime, we add that to, and and we did this by the way, before the lime craziness where the lime prices are so high now. Uh, but um, we do it because so that the the compari uh and soda alike drinks more like uh a wine and less like a cocktail. Uh crazy thing is it turns out that if you bottle the stuff, add the acid, carbonate it, and let it sit overnight, that the bitterness, the inherent bitterness of the campari, is amplified like greatly. So it tastes delicious when you make it, and then the next day it's kind of unpalatably bitter.
+
+[19:57] And it's not unpalatably bitter in that it's like so bitter, it's like it's like the bitterness lingers, just lingers. And uh, and we did a test, we did a test with adding it before, you know, we we we ran a test in putting Aperol in, because Aperol is you know less bitter, and Aperol also gets you know, Aperol for those of you that don't drink Aperol, Aperol is like Campari's slightly sweeter, slightly less alcoholic cousin, and um we did it with uh Aperol, Aperol also got bitter. So it now, and we don't know why. I have no idea why, but we tested it without the acid in it, and it was fine, it was stable. So something about storing diluted campari or aparol in the presence, and I don't know whether it's any acid because we didn't test it with um you know malik or like a lime acid blend.
+
+[20:45] We tested it just with uh lactic and tartaric, the champagne acid, but something about it causes the liquor to change overnight. It's very odd. I wanna I have no idea why. I just know it empirically to be the case. Um so that's a recipe that was in the book that now I'm gonna have to add a little footnote because once we had tested it for stability in the bar, we'd noticed this phenomena that we completely didn't um anticipate.
+
+[21:09] Because the acid itself, unlike uh lime juice or lemon juice, which is known to go bad over time, you know, uh it's not the acids that go bad and it's not the product, it's the actual juice that goes bad. So I had not expected that in a uh in a compari situation. Uh so should we take our first commercial break? Come back to some cooking issues? Yes.
+
+[21:30] Let's do it. Hello, do it yourself or ever thought about gardening? If you can build that window box, you can build a raised bed in your backyard. Bonnie veggie and herb plants in raised beds make a fast weekend project with a big payback. Fresh, grow 'em yourself tomatoes and peppers, kale, basil and thyme, and so much more.
+
+[22:16] Bonnie plants are healthy and strong and help jumpstart your garden. So get growing. Plans and how-tos at Bonnie Plants dot com. Are we back? And we're back.
+
+[22:30] And we're back with cooking issues. I never can I never can tell. Like sometimes like it ends abruptly, sometimes we we you know kinda keep you on your toes. I know it. I know it.
+
+[22:39] Even though we're sitting on our duffs here. You mentioned the lime shortage thing before it's crazy. I was reading all these articles people like yeah I'm just gonna sub lemons. I mean, that's crazy, you know? Yeah, that won't work.
+
+[22:49] That won't work. So, you know, just you know, well, I mean, if you don't care, if you're an enemy of quality, you know, then it won't it won't matter. Then, you know, it's fine. You can do whatever you want. You could substitute, you know, I don't know, swill.
+
+[23:01] I don't matter. But if you want it the stuff that like lemons and limes don't taste any they don't taste the same, they don't function the same way. And strangely, you can tell more once a drink is made that you like so some people make the mistake of tasting just lime juice and just lemon juice and thinking like it's yeah, you know, it's like because it something that's that acidic, like those the differences between the two are only gonna come out more as when they're used in a in a drink. We ran a test. So both uh lime juice and so much more than Jack was hoping for.
+
+[23:31] Uh we ran a test with uh lemon juice and uh lime lemon juice and lime juice are roughly six percent acidity. Uh lemon juice, the the acid, uh predominantly just forget the vitamin C because the scorpic acid doesn't really affect the flavor of it that much. Uh is is uh citric. That's the the bulk of the acid in in a lemon and in a in a lime, it's uh instead of six percent citric, it's more like and it's a give or take, right? It's uh like four percent citric and two percent malloc.
+
+[24:01] And it's that citric malloc blend that creates the natural acidity of um lime. Now the the trick is you know, uh we wanted to do uh we wanted a fake uh we want we tried to do a fake thing where we took lemon and then doped it with malic acid and water so that it was still six percent, uh, but it had the correct blend and it wasn't quite uh right. Part of the thing when you're shaking most of the time when you're using uh a citrus like a lemon or lime, you're shaking a cocktail. When you're shaking a cocktail, it's not just the acidity you need, you actually need the the the the surface active properties of the of the juice itself, the the pectins, whatever else is in it, that cause uh um the shaking cocktails to hold air better, right? And become you know, kind of better shaking cocktails.
+
+[24:48] So I don't know whether it just tasted not as good or whether or not you know we could just tell because it didn't have that kind of peel note that's in lime juice. Of course, that I could have faked it by adding a little bit of succinic acid, which is the secret ingredient in lime acid, uh, and also hard to source. But we weren't able to get a good thing, even when we were specifically trying to do a sub out. So during the shortage, we have um we have mo less uh lime juice shaking cocktails and more of our lemon juice shaking cocktails on the menu. Well, luckily we are not uh you know forced to use one uh or the other.
+
+[25:20] But I you know the the thing about it is, Jack, is that even though limes are ridiculously expensive now, like a factor of four, I think. I forget what the recent numbers are. It's crazy like that. Yeah, it's well, and and you're so you're you pay by the case, which is a certain case count, but the the amount of juice that's in the ones we're getting now is nothing. So it's like you know, we're in that time of year anyway, where when you juice the lime, like two drops of juice come out of the lime, and so they're expensive and useless.
+
+[25:47] So the actual price difference isn't even enough of a factor to factor in how bad they are. Um but still, relative to expensive liquor, it's still, you know, and relative to the use rate, you know, you can kind of you can kind of uh afford it. Although the issue is just you know, you don't want to order too much because we throw it away at the end of the night. So it gets expensive if you make a lot extra and then you have to throw it away at the end of the night, or s we don't we don't actually throw it away. We give it to the kitchen because the kitchen can use it in cooking applications that uh you know we can't use it for in drinks anymore.
+
+[26:22] But yeah, it's a pain in the butt. It'll hopefully I'm told uh that all of that nonsense will be over in May. At the at the end, well, at the end of May. What's the uh the definite? There'll be another crop coming in.
+
+[26:33] Um this one would is shafted by a number of things, so everyone says it's the cartels. I like to say it's the cartels, but you know, they had a uh uh a spot of weather, as we say. Uh it's the cartels, come on. All right. Well, I mean, like I want it to be the cartels, right?
+
+[26:48] That's what we all want. A better story. Yeah, you know. It's like but but but if it was the cartels, right? Avocados come from a similar area, don't they?
+
+[26:55] Like avocado prices haven't spiked as much as limes. Of course, you don't need armed guards for uh I mean like you for your I mean lime trucks now require armed guards. I think the last time I read an article and it's good I'm again I'm talking out of my behind, so I could be wrong, but what I you know, the article I read was that a tractor trailer limes had like, you know, a value of uh street value of over a hundred thousand dollars now. So it's like you know. I mean, not it's a lot of freaking limes, but you gotta remember, like, you know, I'm used to limes being like, you know, seven eight for a dollar, you know, at the Essex Street Market where I buy limes and cheap avocados and Anne's delicious but not inexpensive cheese.
+
+[27:34] Uh and it's that would be Anne Saxoby. Uh but um isn't that weird that market they have like like like people who are selling the cheapest possible avocados in bulk and then like Anne Sax will be. It's a strange market setup, right? It's a cool market. Yeah.
+
+[27:51] That's wonderful. Unfortunately it's only gonna be more of the latter going forward, I think. More of which one? Which one's the latter? Of the delicious but not inexpensive items.
+
+[28:00] I don't know. The th I think that they're obliged to keep the avocado vendors there. I mean, there's like five or six I mean the reason is there's five or six people that sell uh very similar styles of produce there, and so they're beaten uh their prices get beaten down pretty pretty hardcore. Anytime someone who's there who has something that isn't duplicated three and four times, the price tends to rise a little bit. But I don't know.
+
+[28:24] Jack, you used to work there every once in a while, right? At the market? No, but I mean the heritage meat shop's there, so I've spent some time there. I just I just saw you when you hung out at the you 'cause you used to hang out occasionally at the Heritage Meat Shop in the market. Yeah, totally.
+
+[28:36] Yeah. It's a great spot. Yeah. Someday someone will tell so Heritage Meat, there you well, whatever we won't get won't get won't get in, won't talk. If you're in New York, go to the Essex Street Market and get a heritage pork chop and some sacks will be cheese.
+
+[28:47] How about that? There you go. And you can eat I've never eaten at Shopson's. You eaten there? Oh, I haven't, but he's uh apparently a crazy guy.
+
+[28:53] Yeah, again, we're just a little like an in inside inside ball for uh for New Yorkers, but there's a lunatic there at Shopson's. That's his second location, right? You ever eaten there, Emma? No, I haven't. He's a l he's like an old school lunatic.
+
+[29:05] He's like the soup Nazi for breakfast. Is that accurate? I mean, we have we had the menu in our office for a while, just as a kind of piece on its own on the wall to look at occasionally. He has a book, right? He won't serve you if he doesn't like you, right?
+
+[29:17] That's how I've heard. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't wanna I don't want to have to be judged. I just want to eat breakfast and then go in peace.
+
+[29:25] Stu what about you, Stas? What do you think? Do you like being judged when you're having breakfast? You just want to eat? Mm-hmm.
+
+[29:30] Yeah. Do you like judging while you eat breakfast? Stas, do you like judging while you eat breakfast? I don't usually eat breakfast out. I don't eat breakfast actually.
+
+[29:39] Really? Mm-hmm. Really? Mm-hmm. M most most important meal of the day.
+
+[29:44] Which brings us back to cereal. Yes, which brings us back to uh cereal. But she does judge when she we both judge when we eat. Like we're both pretty rough. Like we're both pretty neat.
+
+[29:54] What are you really rough? What? Especially to women, you're really rough. How am I rough to women? That's a lie.
+
+[30:00] I'm I'm first of all, I'm way rougher on men than on women. Emma, back me up on this. You hung out with me before. I'm not sure I've had enough meals with you. Certainly I've eaten here.
+
+[30:09] What women am I rough on? Oh my god. Besides you. Like any woman that he sees online, like instant in like anything, like a Twitter follower or like anything that you see on your computer that's a woman, you're like, look at her. She's busted.
+
+[30:26] What? Are you kidding me? That is not true at all. That i that is a straight first of all, not only is that like I am actually offended, that is a freaking lie. That's a freaking lie.
+
+[30:38] I what I show you is when people on Twitter follow me who aren't real, who clearly are not real people, who are out there trolling to get men to look at at them to like trade some sort of pictures. It's the fake people that I point out. I don't point out any real people. Okay. People that I think are fake people.
+
+[30:58] Okay. You know what I'm talking about. Jack, you know what I'm talking about on the Twitter, right? Yeah, I look at him like that that's not real. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:06] Like they you know, and then they're like, you know, email me for the picture. I'm not gonna email you for pictures. What do I need with your picture for? I don't need picture. Well, we've got a call.
+
+[31:15] Caller, you're on the air. Hey. Um so since you're Mofad person is here, I was gonna ask you, is there any update on the boom serial? Are you guys gonna be able to make that? Oh, on the actual serial.
+
+[31:31] Alright, Emma, why don't you say what we're uh what we're up to? What a segue. So indeed, yeah, we were actually just at the machine today, and uh it was kind of in hibernation over the winter and uh needed a little bit of of care after the the long rough winter that we had in New York. Um but the gun is in beautiful working order and we've been puffing a lot of rice and kind of trying to perfect the recipe on on that front. Uh I think we may also be testing out some various wheat varieties.
+
+[31:57] We had stayed away from wheat and and gluten-containing grains initially, but I think uh there might be a possibility to try those out actually after all. Uh sorry to everyone who is celiac, but there's just too many, too many possibilities out there. So um I think we should be able to get those bags of puffs to everyone probably by the end of the summer. I know it's a year later, but uh there was just a lot of downtime uh when we couldn't use the gun over the winter, so that's that's fine. That's going to be very exciting.
+
+[32:30] We're gonna fire the gun at our nave. What do you say? Uh I got a question for you. Uh a few weeks back, uh you were talking about the merits of Vitamixes, and you mentioned something about blending a pound of bacon into pasta sauce or tomato sauce or something. Oh yeah.
+
+[32:47] Is there a recipe behind that? No, it's just what happened. And um luckily my wife does not listen to this show because she hates when I tell this story. Um but the um I I hate it when people pick things out of food. I hate it.
+
+[33:04] You know what I mean? Like, unless you're actually allergic to it, like I detest when things get picked out of things. I don't like when sandwiches get picked apart, like when someone gets a sandwich and they rip it open and they take all the guts out. And my kids do it all the time. It's like a constant source of irritation to me.
+
+[33:19] But I I uh it just gets to me. So I used to make sauces, right? And then with bacon, right? And then at the end of the night, there'd be a little pile of bacon in the in the bottom of the bowl because the bacon had been, yeah, I don't know, picked around or whatever. And it's not because my my wife is not one of these people, by the way, who is you know afraid of eating fat.
+
+[33:43] You know, in fact, one of the reasons I knew that she was the woman for me was because we once went to a Popeye's fried chicken and she wasn't paying attention to what was going on. She took a whole bucket down by herself. I mean, this lady knows how to eat. Uh so it's not that, but it was just something about it. And I was just like, uh, and so then I got the vita prep, and instead of having the bacon maintained in the so it was a visible thing, I was like to hell with it.
+
+[34:06] After, you know, you normally I would cook out the bacon, remove the bacon, sweat out the uh whatever alliums I'm using in the bacon fat, add the add the tomato, whatever else, cook down, blend, uh, add bacon back at the end for crunch and texture, and um, and then you know, one day I was like to hell with it, and I just blended it into the sauce, and it was so smooth, so smooth. And uh so there was no way possibly to pull the bacon out anymore. I was like, when I've I've noticed that I have that problem when I'm making like pots and sauces with bacon that I can't incorporate the bacon. It it tends to stir out, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:47] And uh ends up at the bottom of the bowl when you're tossing. It ends up at the bottom of the bowl when you're tossing is what you're saying with separating out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, the the bacon is is a fun part. I I don't know how much we would lose in texture by doing it that way, but uh I I I'm gonna give it a try anyway.
+
+[35:07] Yeah, here's what you should do. Blend blend it in for flavor and then maybe save some and then sprinkle over top uh like a service. Yeah, like garnish bacon, but then most of the bacon will be multified bacon. Yeah, that's the way to go. Yeah.
+
+[35:24] All right, thank you very much. All right, tweet tweet on in, let me let tell me how it tastes. Cool. Cool, thanks a lot. All right, so going back to the the gun for a minute, uh, and then I got a uh a question on the thing I have to hit before we go.
+
+[35:36] But okay, so we're we're at the gun today, and it's gonna be it's actually gonna be at our benefit, right? Yes. So you want to talk about the benefit for a second? May 7th. Right.
+
+[35:45] It's gonna be here in New York at a awesome place called the Foundry, which is in Long Island City. And one great perk of this venue that we found, it's an industrial area, so we can drive up the puffing gun, unlike you know, some sort of gala hall in Manhattan where you know space is limited. So we're gonna pull up the puffing gun and uh hopefully do uh a couple of preview shots for people. Um so that's why we were there today. Uh the benefit is um gonna be a huge, huge affair.
+
+[36:14] I mean, we've got eight of these amazing chefs lined up, each of whom is tackling a different museum-themed course. So for example, uh I was recently uh emailing back and forth a little bit with Amanda Cohen of Dirt Candy, a vegetable-centric restaurant in the East Village. Uh and her theme is Korea before the chili, i.e. uh pre-Columbian Korean cuisine. Um and for that matter, you could do that with a number of uh South Asian or Southeast Asian cuisines that rely heavily on chilies.
+
+[36:44] So uh I think she said she's making a few different kinds of kimchi that are chili free. The old the old white ones. Yes, yeah, I think so. Nice. Yeah, sounds good.
+
+[36:53] What else we got? Why don't you tell them why don't you tell them who's and you can still buy tickets if you've got the cash. Uh you should go to mofad dot com uh or dot org, right? Yeah, benefit.mofad.org is the place for tickets. So uh we've got individual tickets and then also if you got a group of buddies or colleagues, you can buy a table.
+
+[37:11] So why don't you run through the uh chefs and what they're doing? So we've also got uh Franklin Becker of the Little Beat who has what Masaswap brought to Thanksgiving. Now this is a bit controversial because uh the idea of a first Thanksgiving is pretty contentious historically. I think most food historians would say there probably was no first Thanksgiving in the way that we have idealized it here in the US. That being said, there is a primary source uh one or two letters that mention that this one pinag chief Masaswa brought five deer to a gathering with colonists in Plymouth.
+
+[37:48] So deer taste good. Um would be in keeping with the Native American cuisine theme. What else we got? Let's see. Uh oh, Wiley Dufrain, WD 50, uh long time supporter of Mofad, is tackling the four humors.
+
+[38:12] So the sort of extremely outdated notion that uh human physiology is based on these four substances. The black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood, I believe are they that's not true. Not sure when it was debunked, but it was quite a while ago. So he's gonna be uh kind of exploring this theme of food as medicine, the intersection between food and health through this theme. Right.
+
+[38:38] Uh I'm not exactly sure what his what his uh what he's gonna do. It's an i it was an incredibly influential view in um medieval cookery. And so uh, you know, a lot of medieval cookery is based around um you know, the the idea was is you want to center yourself not too not too phlegmatic uh or moist and you know cold, not too hot, not too dry. So yeah, you're you're phlegmatic and you're cold, you're hot and you're dry, and you gotta get and it as represented by the different actual bodily humors, the biles and whatnot. Uh but as it's a very interesting and demented uh every food had its own uh sort of rating, and every cooking method had its own sort of rating.
+
+[39:16] So roasting would be hot and dry. Uh, you know, and there's all different and so like kind of balancing all that um interesting idea. Who else we got? Uh let's see. Also uh I'm really excited about this one personally.
+
+[39:28] Dominique Anzel of of Cronet Fame, although I'm sure he hates to be cast in that light, uh, is taking on uh food on the battlefield. And apparently he used to actually for a short time was a cook for the French military. Um and so uh he's got some actual hands-on experience uh doing this kind of food. Um and I think he's he's gonna be doing a a pastry course as far as I know. Um and I think the presentation will be will be very interesting there.
+
+[39:54] I don't want to give away the the secret entirely, but we we got uh we got uh Brooks Headley's doing um food of future past, right? Yes, so a more conceptual theme. Um I haven't checked in with him, so again, not sure what that course is like in terms of its development. Michael Anthony got TV dinners. Yes, another one where the presentation is gonna be critical.
+
+[40:15] And the idea there is we'll do a uh short video pitch on Mofad, um, since we're gonna be announcing some big plans for the coming years, uh, along with Michael Anthony's TV dinner. Nice, which is hilarious. Uh that's everyone, right? Uh no, we've also got Nils Nurren. Oh, Nils, yeah, what's Nils?
+
+[40:32] Nils, oh my god, the best. He's doing ital cuisine. Rastafarian Ital cuisine. Oh, I love Nils. Nils is a huge reggae fan.
+
+[40:39] What else we got who else we got? Let's see. And that's it. Sweet. Oh, and then on the I'm gonna hit this question real quick.
+
+[40:48] Uh also uh we've got uh Sean Gray of Momofuku Co. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See the thing is whenever you're listening at things out of order, it's better to list things in order. What's his topic?
+
+[40:56] He's got Pennsylvania Dutch food. He actually hails from uh Pennsylvania, as I think. Right, right. So this will be hitting close to home for him in some way. Sweet.
+
+[41:05] All right. And that's everyone, right? Yes. You got everyone now? All right, nice.
+
+[41:08] All right. If we have a second on the way out, we're gonna do a pitch for the round table too. Mofad round table. But uh we got a question in from Alex in Santa Barbara. Um Dave, Nasasha, Jack, and maybe.
+
+[41:22] He gave you a maybe, Jack, right? Maybe, wow. Wow. And everyone else that's there today. Once again, thanks for the programs.
+
+[41:27] Greatly appreciate it. The question is a bit long, so please feel free to edit for your show. Uh I believe we all do uneconomical things in or for the kitchen. For example, last summer I grew $25 tomatoes because I only managed to grow four of them. The it uh so spent a hundred dollars total, got four tomatoes, twenty-five bucks.
+
+[41:44] Uh the year before I was giving them away and figured I could repeat my success, but it didn't work out. I would have been much better off uh buying farmers market tomatoes uh for ten bucks and saving ninety bucks. The only reason I tried to grow them was because the tomatoes the year before were very good and very plentiful. Uh this came up because my friend was just getting into home brewing. I immediately thought back to my tomatoes and figured he was about to spend a lot of money, time and effort to produce a product far inferior to what he could purchase easily.
+
+[42:09] I understand the journey is part of the fun, but sometimes the cost isn't worth it. I do not brew my own soy sauce, roast my own coffee beans, smoke my own bacon, or keep a sourdough starter. The time, energy, and cost are not worth it compared to what is readily available. On the other hand, I never order something at a restaurant that I can pull off almost as well, if not far better at home. A New York strip steak is a great example.
+
+[42:31] Instead, I try to order something which takes much more time and energy at home. Additionally, I never purchased a half quart container of diced onions or jar of crushed garlic. That crushed garlic is gross. Uh no offense to who people who make it. Uh, I cannot believe those products sell well enough for the stores to stock them.
+
+[42:45] I refuse to believe I'm alone in thinking this way. Like I said above, I can understand the journey and the experience as part of the fun. That said, what do you think uh are the uneconomical efforts put forth at home? More more importantly, what are the products that should never be purchased because the cost quality effort are such that making them at home is the uh is the uh uh should never be purchased because uh because the cost quality effort are such that making them at home uh is is a bad idea. I think I I I went ahead of my brain.
+
+[43:10] Uh hopefully the spirit of the question came through this email. Some of the things off the top of my head, uh peanut butter, right? He only buys it and he has friends that object. I buy peanut butter because commercial peanut butter is delicious, and you don't have a mill. Nine I guarantee you don't have a mill that can produce peanut butter with the same texture as the stuff uh that you you ever had any natural like home ground peanut butter you thought was really good?
+
+[43:31] No. I know people who like that kind of texture. I'm not one of them. I like good old-fashioned emulsified emulsified sweetened, sweetened U.S. peanut butter.
+
+[43:40] Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That stuff's good. Uh hot sauce, I always buy it. I think uh here's the thing.
+
+[43:45] I'm gonna answer in general and then I'm gonna go over some of these things. So, for instance, learning how to do everything, like being a brewer for a while, if not for your whole life. If you like brewing, you should keep doing it because it's rewarding if you do it right. It is a pain in the butt to do all grain brick grain brewing. But I think doing anything once or twice is worthwhile if you want to know how things work, even if you're not going to make the kind of best product.
+
+[44:11] The only thing that I haven't done really in this list, I mean I haven't done soy sauce, but uh wines, because I can't like you don't have really control over the raw ingredients to even get kind of usually a reasonable expectation of the highest quality on wine. So one reason I haven't hit it yet, because I don't have a lock on the really high quality inputs. But like beer, you can get extremely high quality inputs and you can make good beer. So do I brew beer anymore? No.
+
+[44:35] After my second son was born, I don't do anymore because it was a huge mess, but I I did it for a while. Uh, same with roasting coffee. I used to roast all my own coffee beans, and I think it's really good. Uh other people can do as good a job or a better job than I can do, but uh I enjoyed learning about it, and I feel like I know much more about coffee for having done it. Uh ditto sourdough starters.
+
+[44:56] I, you know, I'd no longer maintain one, but I maintained one for uh a long time, and I think it was worthwhile uh to kind of feel what it's like to have something um on a continuous basis that you have to take care of in your kitchen that made delicious bread. So I think that there's it's often worthwhile to go through the effort to do it, but not necessarily worth the effort to maintain it for your whole life. Does that make sense? Make sense? All right, let's go over these one by one.
+
+[45:19] Style's like, I don't care. Uh tofu. Uh you said you liked uh yours homemade, but I read up on the process and now testing out everything the local Japanese market has to offer because I can't see myself going through all that effort. Here's another thing. Tofu is only hard the first four times you make it.
+
+[45:33] As soon as your kitchen is streamlined and you have all the stuff ready and you've gone through the procedure, so you're not wondering what's going on, it's actually not that difficult to make uh to make tofu. Uh you just have to remember to soak the stuff uh beforehand is the only is the only big whoopty crap. So a lot of these things that are difficult are only difficult because we don't do them often. Uh cheese. I always buy, but I'm starting to think I should try my hand at my own ricotta at the very least with McGee's book in hand.
+
+[45:57] What about you, Emma? You make your own cheese? No, actually, I think I've only done you know simple kind of fresh cheeses, paneer, things of that sort. Yeah, and I'm not very good at it. What about you stuff?
+
+[46:05] Do you ever make your own mozzarella or anything? See, I think there's a huge art to making something like a mozzarella. Ricotta I could try. But like real whey wakata or like the whole milk recotta one mix. I don't know.
+
+[46:14] I don't know about that. Puff pastry dough. I buy the frozen sheets. I've made it in the past and cannot tell the difference, which might say more about my pastry skills than it does about the quality of the frozen sheets. I make my own puff paste, but I like making it.
+
+[46:24] I enj I enjoy the process of making it. Yeah, I like laminated doughs. They're um they're time consuming, but they don't actually take a lot of effort. You just need to be able to take it out of the freezer, you know, over the course of a day, ten times. I would say mine's probably worse than the stuff you can buy, but I enjoy making it.
+
+[46:39] What about you, sir? You ever do laminated doughs like that? No, not your jammy. Yeah, are you much of a baker or more of a cook? You don't like to bake much, right?
+
+[46:47] No. Even cookies? No. No. Especially cookies.
+
+[46:50] Uh cake mix. This one's a tough call because uh the the box is so very easy, but I like to think from scratch cakes are better. I don't like cake mixes. I never use cake mixes. I think it's an insult because it's literally like the stuff that they put in that box you can just buy and measure out.
+
+[47:04] Same with pancake mix. I don't get it. Uh I don't like that hyper uniform texture that they provide. I never I never use them ever. Yeah, well, and particularly when you read about the history of the development of cake mixes and how they initially had made them so it was really almost just add water, and then found that through kind of consumer research, uh housewives were um didn't really enjoy the the process of making these cakes.
+
+[47:26] There was there was too little to do. So they reformulated them, so you had to add egg and add a little bit of, you know. Yeah. But in a tiny bit of effort. So yeah, so what the hell?
+
+[47:35] It's like I also I don't use bisquick, no offense to bisquick. I don't use self-rising flour because I know how baking powder works. You know. Uh tortillas. I buy them, have made them both corn and flour, but the local shop makes a fine product.
+
+[47:49] I think it's very look, it's a huge pain in the ass to make uh tortillas, but I still think I'd rather have I use the uh store-bought ones like in a pinch, like for us for a normal weekday meal uh and heat them up. Uh if I don't have time, it's been a while since I've done the full nixtimalization. I think it's definitely a worthwhile road to go down, but it's a pain. But like if I if I'm really in a hurry, my seca is not that much slower. So you buy maseka to do the the tortillas.
+
+[48:16] Dried pasta. I've made my own pasta, but fresh is definitely different than dried, not necessarily better depending on the shape for things like spaghetti, the dried is preferred. Yeah, dried pasta is delicious. I like dried pasta. I like making fresh pasta, but to make fresh pasta well, you need to mean uh, you know, uh efficiently to have it not be a pain in the butt, you need to have your kitchen set up to do it.
+
+[48:34] So I used to always have my pasta uh my rollers clamped onto my work surface and everything was there, and by the time water was boiling, I could almost have fresh pasta done because I didn't do what you were supposed to do. I didn't give it the rest periods you're supposed to give it and all this, and it still tasted good, you know. Uh and so I used e I used to make fresh pasta two, three times a week. Uh my kitchen's not really set up for it uh right now. And then finally, mayonnaise.
+
+[48:58] This one's a tough call. If I'm gonna make a dressing such as ranch or blue cheese, oh my god, Dax looks ranch dressing. Uh then I will put forth the effort, but for sandwiches and the like, I go with the jar, though lately I've been enjoying the Hamptons Food Alternative. I think you get the idea. I'm looking forward to your information on the things I could I could buy, uh, but shouldn't.
+
+[49:13] I'll have to come back next week with other ideas, and I'll think about this, but I'll tell you this. I I like mayonnaise in a jar. I like jarred mayonnaise. I enjoy commercial mayonnaise. I think that stuff is delicious.
+
+[49:25] Now I still know how to make mayonnaise, and I make mayonnaise from time to time. But I like mayonnaise in a jar. Jack, you? I actually mayonnaise one of the few things I don't like, so at all? Yeah.
+
+[49:35] Weird, right? It is weird. Yeah. I mean, if it's on something, I'll take it, but I'm never like I don't know. Never reaching for the mayo.
+
+[49:42] Stas, what's your net what's your mayo thoughts? I like it. But do you like it from a jar or you like fresh? Anyway. Yeah, I mean they're two.
+
+[49:49] Pretty different things, I think. But I I mean I'm pretty partial to QP myself. But oh, Cupie is delicious. They yeah, yeah, the uh yeah, you get that in the in the Asian marks, Cupie in the little thing. Well, I wish uh I got such a high note with the anyway.
+
+[50:02] I wish we were still allowed to use commercial music, then we could leave on any way you want it. That's the way, you know, the uh the journey song. You like that one, or is that one of the ones you don't like? I like it. Yeah.
+
+[50:10] All right. So anyway, we'll come back with more things that you should or should not make at home next week on cooking issues. This is Chris. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[50:34] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadion Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Petri in Brussels, Brooklyn! Every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from eh, well, a little late today.
+
+[0:32] To uh we have to we're at the end on time today, Stas. 1155. Uh I'll tell you what happened to me. It's my fault, obviously, but uh for those of you that live in New York City and take the subways and don't have your uh your Metro card automatically renewed for you. Here's what happens when you go to the machine.
+
+[0:46] You put the card, you put your card in the first it says, what do you want to do? Duh, I want a Metro card, right? Right? Stas, you're with me on this. And then it says, okay, uh, you know, what do you want to do?
+
+[0:58] I want to refill this card. It can't you can't just put the card in. You know what I mean? So you put the card in eventually after like 18 key presses, and it's like, well, um, what do you want to do to this card? I want to put money on it, I want to go in the freaking subway.
+
+[1:09] You know what I mean? And it asks you a billion questions, and it's like, you sure? Are you sure? You sure you want to go on the subway? And then, like, you have to enter a billion times.
+
+[1:16] You know how I never read the credit card on the first swipe? So Stas and I are our classic joke is is that the uh person programming it should have just put a thing as like, have you missed your train yet? Have you missed your train yet? How about now? Now?
+
+[1:26] Now have you missed it? So then finally it spits the damn thing out, and I see the uh there's one specific subway that will get me here on time, and I saw I saw it go bing bong as I ran up the stairs because I run up the backside, and how they closed the the front and then the back, and then they I got bing bonged. Anyway, my fault, but the best is when the machine's like, we only accept nickels today. Yeah! Like, I just don't I I like I don't get this crap at all.
+
+[1:50] Like it it doesn't take a a rocket scientist. You see, everyone, no offense if the person who programs these machines happens to like hear this at some point, but look, uh, here's a guess. If dude or a lady, I guess a person, Dewey's kind of gender neutral for me, right? Shoves uh a metro card into the machine, odds are they want to do something to it, right? You don't have to wait to ask them.
+
+[2:12] Like if they try to shove a metro card in, just accept it. Just accept it. And then be like, oh, oh, wait a minute. This Metro card is a metro card that has money on it. So he must want to add some freaking money to this damn thing.
+
+[2:24] You know what I mean? I'm not making a joke, but yours you're you have the only subway station that's uh upstairs both ways. Like Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I live uh yeah, I live in an awesome environment where it's like the old uphill in the snow both ways. It's true that you're yeah.
+
+[2:40] Yeah, Stas loves it because she has to go there because it's also the subway stop for Booker and Dax. No, I go to Grand. You go to Essex. No, I mean when we leave the radio station. Let me go when we go from here.
+
+[2:50] The radio station. Jack, how you doing? I'm good. Yeah? What happened at uh Williams College?
+
+[2:56] I heard something went down there. Uh well, maybe we could talk about that later. Um Should we save that for after the break? No, I mean, alright. So I went to go.
+
+[3:05] Are you talking about like the thing that made Nastasha actually happy for once in the past five years? Nastasha's been happy exactly two times in the entire five years or three, four years that we've been working together. What? What was the first time? When you got us booked on Jimmy Fallon the first time, you were genuinely happy.
+
+[3:23] And um I'm I'm talking about not ha well, this I guess counts for happy for someone else's pain. I've seen her happy for other people's pain on more than one occasion. And this one. So this is entirely my fault. I go to Williams, and I actually really like Williams a lot.
+
+[3:35] So we're going to Williams. I'd never been to Williams College before. And uh the interesting thing about uh Jack, you ever go to Williams College? You ever hang out there? You ever go?
+
+[3:43] He's not there. Uh the uh it's a college, not a university, right? And so the cool thing about it is that the students who are there, uh the undergrads get to do a lot of stuff that you know, if you go to a university, like I'm sure at Stanford, right? Same thing. You go to Stanford, the professors care most about the graduate students, right?
+
+[4:01] That's just the way it works at a university. I mean, they care about you when you're in the class, obviously, but you know, the graduate students are more important than the undergrads from this point of view of the professors at the time. But if you go to a college, there are no graduate students, so the professors care about the undergrads. So those undergrads got to do some pretty cool stuff. Anyways, so I did a uh we did a uh uh lecture there and a sociology thing.
+
+[4:21] So here's a story that uh Nastasha, I guess, primed Jack to have me tell. And that is I'm driving for like three hours, and I don't know what the hell. I you know, we we're with Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. By the way, are there still tickets available for that event? No, not that event, the one this weekend.
+
+[4:37] Yeah, both. Okay, so uh it's the New York uh it's the New York Food Book Festival or whatever it's called, Festival of Food Books, Book and Food Festival Fair. Food Book Fair, there you have it. Uh uh this weekend in in some brooklyn, yeah? At the White Hotel.
+
+[4:52] At the White Hotel. I'll be there recording the Mofad panel. Oh, there you go. And uh the uh Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink, is having the second of its round table panels. Well you know what time it is, Jack?
+
+[5:02] Since you're recording noon, yeah, I do know. It's at the noontime, and and the subject is genetically modified organisms and uh uh their place in food. For those of you that don't know, uh do we charge for this thing, Jack? Or no? I don't know.
+
+[5:15] I don't know. No, I don't uh MoFads might be a little bit just go on Mofad.org. MoFad.org. Yeah, and they the anyway, we're we're doing these series of round tables, and I'm moderating but not giving any opinions, which is so hard for me, so hard for me. Uh the uh we did the last one on the soda ban, and this one is on um genetic like generally on genetically modified uh organisms in the uh food chain, and I am so sorry that I cannot throw my two cents in.
+
+[5:41] The difficult thing, uh surprisingly, is it was more difficult for us to get we thought it was gonna be extremely easy for us to get um kind of anti-GMO people on, but we have only really one kind of hardcore anti-GMO person, uh, and then you know, kind of like a couple, two that are vehemently pro and one that's just kind of more in the in the neutral zone. But we're hoping to get uh we have some questions in from you know outside folk that are you know that are very anti because we will the whole idea is we want to have in these round tables uh a reasoned debate on both sides, not just uh you know, show one side or the other. Do the do people at this radio station are they anti-genetically modified organism, Jack in general? I mean, generally I'd say so, but we're trying to keep more of an open mind around it because it's not so you know black and white. Well, well, hold on a second, it's not it's not it's not it's not just that it's not black and white.
+
+[6:32] It's like I don't even think that they that the argument is framed properly. Right. I don't think people know what they're supporting or against necessarily. For instance, like here's something that people don't don't think they're sp they're they're focusing specifically on like transgenic like additions of genes from uh different species or even different, you know, whole categories of thing into something for a specific trait. So for instance, the ability to um the ability to resist roundup, right?
+
+[7:02] So you have roundup ready things, right? Which is a nervous side. Or uh the ability to uh create its own pest resistance without the need for pesticides, which seems to me to be kind of an inherent good, right? Um whatever. Or increased yield, or theoretically you could increase the nutritional value of things, like the uh you know, golden rice that has a higher beta carotene level.
+
+[7:22] There's there's a wide variety of things for doing this. But it seems to me that there's a bunch of different arguments for the harm of it, and other than the moral arguments, like the actual safety, there's also economic arguments, right? I'm not gonna get into those. But uh, if your argument is against the safety of it, right? There are things that we do to plants that are much more dangerous from a standpoint of uh creating possible allergens, right, in the food system.
+
+[7:48] So, you know, forced mutation through the uh application of ionizing radiation, right? Which is like, you know, has been since the atomic age, has been, you know, uh a method for inducing rapid uh change in things like corn, for instance, right? You radiate a boatload of seeds, some of them have mutations, some of them are useful, or very few of them are useful, the rest get thrown away, and you can get new things this way. Much higher potential, according to the studies I've read for possible new allergens and weird crap happening with that sort of mutation than when you're taking a targeted gene that you know what it does already and injecting it in. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[8:27] Anyway, but like that requires no labeling. No one's saying that we should go label those kinds of seeds. There's no it's not even on the table. It's not even considered in the genetically modified uh, you know, in the rubric of genetically modified organisms. So it just seems to me that like to frame all of GMO as kind of one thing under one tent that's done for one reason with one set of goods and one set of harms is kind of silly.
+
+[8:49] No, Jack, you with me on this? Anyways. I like how you're like squeezing in all your opinions because you can't give them as you're moderating the panel. You like that? Yeah.
+
+[8:57] Do you like that? Alright, so back to Williams. So I'm at the Williams College. And I don't know why Nastasha was because Nastasha enjoys uh embarrassment. Once she brings it up, I have to say it.
+
+[9:06] So I I go into my room, I forget my luggage is. My luggage is is filled with uh crap for demos like CO2 and your clothing. No, my clothing was in my shoulder bag. You said you still well, whatever. Anyway, my clothing was in my shoulder bag.
+
+[9:20] Uh and uh because who cares about my clothing? I shove that in my shoulder bag. Um the important stuff, the demo goes in my in my in my luggage. So I'm wheeling the luggage, uh, and we didn't do it old school Piper where we had an open can of propane in it that was left on and nearly burned his hair off. Remember that?
+
+[9:33] Yes. That was awesome. Um wasn't really awesome. So Peter has so anyway, so he has my luggage because I don't know, for some I always carry everything. I always carry everything.
+
+[9:42] Stas, am I right? I carry every freaking thing. So like Peter for some reason thinks he's gonna help me out, so he starts wheeling my luggage, so I forget I have it because my clothes aren't in it, you know what I mean? And I'm not carrying it. So it doesn't exist, right?
+
+[9:56] So I go to my room. I've been driving for like three and a half hours. We're about to leave, so I I go and I forget to shut my door behind me. It's a giant room, by the way. William set up some of these giant rooms.
+
+[10:06] And uh I forget to shut the door behind me. I don't know, I assume it auto-closes or something, and I go into the bathroom and I don't shut that door either because I'm alone in my room. And then Peter and Stas come to bring my luggage, which they didn't need to bring to me because I was gonna take it to the demo anyway, because all the stuff in the demo is in it. And then I I see them out and they're like, Dave, what's up? I'm like, oh my god, I realize the door's open because they're calling in.
+
+[10:25] I'm like, leave the luggage and shut the door. And then so Peter starts wheeling the luggage in. Into the bathroom. He starts wheeling it into the well into the into the into the there's a there's a hallway, a foyer, right? And I can see that the move the kind of movement in the mirror.
+
+[10:42] I'm like, ah, nah. I'm like, so I say, I say close it, meaning the door, because clearly the luggage is already inside because I can see the movement of the hand. But here's what Peter hears. Closer. Closer?
+
+[10:54] Why would I say closer? That's crazy. So he starts, alright. So I see him moving in closer with the luggage, and I'm like, get out! Get out!
+
+[11:04] What's wrong with you? Shut the door. Although I had some expletives that were like mixed in. But I guess from their standpoint, they're like, why is this guy leaving the door open? And maybe something's wrong with him.
+
+[11:12] Maybe he's dead. I don't know. Maybe he went back inside or whatever. And they hear. Leave the luggage and close the door.
+
+[11:21] Closer. Anyways, so and that that little just to give you an idea of Nastasha, that little uh because you don't understand Dave's biggest fear in life is either being naked or being on the toilet and having anyone hear him or see him. Yeah, or I I don't like, I don't like, first of all, I like I only like my restroom in my house, which right now is buried in the very back corner of the house, and like, you know, my wife and I, we have our own. I don't know if the kids share it, nothing. It's like, you know, it's like my little castle area.
+
+[11:51] I don't want to be bothered, irritated, spoken to. And then you close your hotel room door. Well, I uh look, I made one error and then completely compounded out of all reason. Nuts. Calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[12:06] That's 7184972128. Nice segue. You like that? Uh yeah. So anyways, so you can go on the line and uh go and see the uh GMO Thing of Majig at the uh at the book festival.
+
+[12:17] And I recommend checking out because you know what I like me some books about? Food. Like me some food books. Daz, you like some food books? Yeah.
+
+[12:25] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Well, do you do you like uh do you like Grupo Pizza?
+
+[12:29] It's totally random. You don't know? I don't know what it is. It's that super thin cracker crust pizza. Oh no, I like deep dish.
+
+[12:29] What the fu what? I really love deep dish. Deep dish? Where did this come from? I just love Chicago style pizza.
+
+[12:41] W when was it? I had it in San Francisco last time I was there. So how so have you been to Chicago and had it? Uh-huh. When were you in Chicago?
+
+[12:48] Years, like ten years ago. How is it that we've like been together this long? I have no idea that you like this kind of pizza. I love it. Which by the way, in Chicago, when you go there and you're like, yo, gee, I want to try some of this Chicago, they're like, nah.
+
+[13:01] They're like, nah, you don't really want to do that. Really? I don't know. They're like ashamed of it there. Like the people I've spoken to there, the locals, they're like ashamed.
+
+[13:08] I guess because they think look, first of all, like when I was a kid, people used to say, Oh, New York pizza. Oh, New York style pizza. You have New York style pizza. New pizza in New York until about ten years ago sucked. Sucked hard.
+
+[13:20] It was bad. You know what I mean? There was like four or five places that made really, really good versions of like old school American New York pizza that I liked. You know what I mean? Like uh I like, you know, I like Grimaldi's, I like Lombardi's, I like all that stuff.
+
+[13:34] You know, uh, I guess Arturas. I'm forgetting a bunch of people, I'm sure. But like, you know, like us actually kicking any sort of butt in the pizza world really is only the past ten years, you know. But it I've never heard someone say that, you know, they're like, you know what I really like? None of this crap.
+
+[13:50] I really, you know, you know, DOP and the you know the n none of that crap that I like? Deep dish. You know, if I had to get like a non a non restaurant or artisanal pizza or whatever, I'd probably go to a pizzeria Uno too. Yeah. I've never you know, I've never been to Pizzeria Uno.
+
+[14:05] Is that similar to a Pizza Hut style? No, it's like it's you know, their whole thing is like Chicago style deep dish. But I guess uh it's a level above the Pizza Huts of the world. Well, I mean, y I would guess. Like I mean, like yeah, uh too hard.
+
+[14:17] Yeah, but no offense to Pizza Hut. No offense. Offense, it's terrible. Or offense. Yeah.
+
+[14:23] Yeah, yeah. You know, uh, someone sent me, you know, because everyone here who's heard the past couple of episodes knows what I feel about Subway and their new flat pizza crap. Someone sent me that there's a new chain that's gonna come out with a pizza cake. Yeah, I saw that's like eight layers of pizza. It looks like deep dish.
+
+[14:40] But it's like deep cr I mean, like first of all, people listen, people, people, people. Deep dish pizza works for one reason only. It's not like a crust, it's bread. It's freaking bread, right? Right?
+
+[14:53] And when you make a deep dish pizza, and I know this because even though I'm not a consumer of deep dish pizza, I did deliver Domino's pizza for a whole summer. Driver. The summer, yeah, yeah. Uh I drove my mom's car with empty plates on it. So it was, you know, I I was 60 miles an hour all the time.
+
+[15:06] This was back when they used to actually still guarantee the delivery times. And like they would tell the drivers, listen, don't speed, don't break any traffic regulations. But on the other hand, get the freaking pizza there on time. Get it there on time. And they would give you like three pizzas to do in one run.
+
+[15:22] I was never late. This is I mean, like you know, you this is why they should not let teenagers drive. Anyways, uh so you pre bake those suckers and that's how you get them to work by pre baking the deep dish thing and then adding the stuff so you get a layer of baked bread so you don't have that nasty soggy nonsense in the uh where the topping, you know, meets the meets the pizza. Now, 'cause otherwise it would be a nightmare. Imagine.
+
+[15:44] Imagine, Stas, that you have like sauce against a thick thing that wasn't pre-baked at all. That's a that's a nightmare. Mm-hmm. Right. So do you like the grease spray that they put on the bottom of those pans to get the deep dish stuff?
+
+[15:55] Did they do that in Chicago? They have like the layer of grease. It's is it baked in a pan? Yeah, but I really don't remember eating. Yeah.
+
+[16:02] Anywho, uh, so the point is that if you're doing it in a big cake format, how the hell are you gonna get to cook right unless you cook them all individually? Like flash cook them, then layer them and then recook them at the end. But even like an old school, like an Italian, like a pasticcio, like a pasticcio allepre or something like a like la rabbit pie with like the raised sides on it and stuff, like in Bujali's old book. Like, I don't think that has lots of paid, you know, dough layers in the middle of it, does it? I don't know.
+
+[16:30] I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's a I think it's a nightmare of an idea. But we'll see. I mean, I'm willing to try a thin slice.
+
+[16:36] I mean, who first of all, who wants pizza in that format? Who wants to eat pizza with a fork except Bill De Blasio? Yeah. You know? All right.
+
+[16:45] Um, okay. So uh also I was researching somebody's uh question. What do we did? I miss something. No, oh yes.
+
+[16:51] Uh Mofed is having its second blowout benefit on Wednesdays, the seventh seventh, which is a Wednesday. Yeah. Uh May 7th. And uh we have an incredible uh series of chefs coming in, and there are still tickets available. Go to Mofed.org.
+
+[17:10] Uh, because they have a link directly off the thing now, right? Yeah. It's expensive. You guys wish you had gone to the original one that Nastasha and I threw and stupidly only charged $250 for it, which is crazy. Yeah.
+
+[17:22] Like you could not buy that meal anywhere near $250. That was nuts. Like the value on that was crazy. We're the dumbest two people that there, at least that are sitting in this radio station right now. Oh, by the way, speaking of speaking of dumb, uh, did you notice that uh now that the weather's nice, Roberta's finally put up a freaking awning outside?
+
+[17:37] Oh, I was like, wait, what the hell? Does that make any goddamn sense? No. It had to happen sometime. It's it's the one day you don't need a freaking awning is right now.
+
+[17:47] And there it is. And there it is. It's not an awning, it's uh like a it's a winter door, a winter. It's like a winter vestibule thing. Yeah, not an awning.
+
+[17:54] It's like a winter vestibule. It may rain a lot. That's but there's a there's the inside thing, uh it's just a nightmare. And you know what? They put the thing up, but don't they still have the ratty curtain or do they get rid of the ratty curtain?
+
+[18:05] They have the ratty curtain. So, like the thing about Robert is, right, is that everything is kind of like, and I say this with love complete love, Jack. Right. I don't know about it. No, but I'm saying, I just so you know, I want you to vouch for this.
+
+[18:16] Everything's put together with kind of like with duct tape spit and bubblegum. Yes. Rap. And they're kind of like, hey, we want a dining room, I'll just get some tinker toys and glue this crap together, and we'll have a dining room, and somehow it works for them, and it's great, right? So, like uh typical Roberta style, when you walk in to prevent the wind from like killing everyone at the front, they have a ratty curtain, which you know, it was nice probably when it started, but it turned ratty and they kept it, and that was kind of the charm.
+
+[18:41] And so they kept the ratty curtain and added the vestibule. What's up with that? Any thoughts, Jack? All I can say is when it's busy here at night, that the spillover, maybe maybe it'll help the waiting people waiting. Who the hell wants to wait in a vestibule?
+
+[18:54] I hate waiting in a vestibule. A warm summer night, you want to be in a vestibule. Yeah, cramped in a vestibule with a bunch of hipsters. Nice for winter. By the way, Mike Booker and Dax were like, Dad, what's a hippie?
+
+[19:05] Oh. Ooh. Did you see there was a Jesus contest on Sunday? No. Yeah.
+
+[19:11] Well, we're running a little far afield here. Okay. So uh so I was researching a question that I'm gonna read you in a second. Should we ever get to questions here on the show? And uh I came across uh this uh this paper, which I will just read you the abstract of because if you're like me, you read a lot of uh abstracts of articles, and and I like abstracts of review articles, but somehow this one captured my attention, so I'm gonna read it to you.
+
+[19:33] Applications and function of food grade phosphates by uh Lucina Lampila, the Department of Food Science in the Louisiana Sea Grant College program, LSU Ag Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. LSU, that's for Pat. Yeah? Yeah. Go Pat.
+
+[19:48] That's uh not Pat the Patriots, that's Pat uh Nastasha's friend. Uh food grade phosphates are used in the production of foods to function as buffers, sequestrants, acidulants, bases, flavors, cryoprotectants, gel accelerants, dispersants, nutrients, precipitants, and as free flow, anti-caking or ion exchange agents. The actions of phosphates affect the chemical leavening of cakes, cookies, pancakes, muffins, and donuts, the even melt of processed cheese, the structure of a frankfurter, the bind and hydration of delicatessen meats, the fluidity of evaporated milk, the distinctive flavor of cola beverages, the free flow of spice blends, the mineral content of isotonic beverages, and the light color of par fried potato strips. Hell yeah! That is an article I want to read about me.
+
+[20:33] Some phosphates. That's selling the phosphates. Am I right, Jack? Yeah, it sounds pretty good. Hell yeah.
+
+[20:38] I'm like, phosphates. What? And they use phosphates to make them uh more acidic, to make them more basic. It's like phosphates and everything. And this article starts from like mining rocks out of the ground to like all of those kind of things.
+
+[20:50] So if you like a review article like I like a review article, go check out Lucina Lampila's applications and functions of food grade phosphates. Available at any, you know, major uh academic library near you. You know, this could be like a regular segment on the show. You review a paper like that, you know? Yeah?
+
+[21:08] Yeah, that was a pretty good review right there. Yeah, well, check this one out. This one, the paper's not so interesting, but uh it this has to have lost something in translation. So if I were to ask you uh what a spent chicken is, Stas and Jack, what do you think a spent chicken is? Overdone or the remains of I I don't know.
+
+[21:28] Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought it was like they had a bunch of like, you know, like part like partially defatted fatty meat product or like mechanically deboned. Like that's what I thought they meant spent chicken was. No, no. A spent chicken is a chicken that's been laying eggs for like, you know, its entire like laying lifetime, however many months they allow it before it stops laying eggs effectively.
+
+[21:48] That's what they mean is a spent chicken. So they're tougher, right? And like they're really good for things like soups and stews, but I guess these guys are trying to find uh you know other uses for it. So here's this article. I'll just gonna read the title for you and tell you what they did.
+
+[22:02] It's by uh Anchor Das and uh Dilip Ron John et al. Uh Dilip Ron John Nath et al. And it's uh studies on certain quality attributes of meat pickle prepared from spent chicken. Wow. You know what they do?
+
+[22:16] They pressure cook and then they pressure cook in vinegar and deep fry with spices, chicken until it has so little moisture and and like so high acidity that it can just sit out on a shelf for 90 days without anything happening to it. But you like when was the last time you uh hankered for a spent chicken pickle? And in the article they call them spent chicken pickle, which is I think a really good band name. What do you think, Jack? You can start a band called Spent Chicken Pickle?
+
+[22:40] I'll have to talk to Joe about that. Yeah. Speaking of which, what was that music we had at the beginning? Oh, it's a band called Snow Mine. Yeah, it's a strange combination of weepy and optimistic at the same time.
+
+[22:50] Can I disclose something funny on the air very quickly? The um the bassist in that band, the drummer rather, was my my butt, my orientation palette, NYU. And he was dating at the time a girl named Stephanie Germinata, who was one of our classmates. Yeah, exactly. She went on to be Lady Gaga.
+
+[23:05] Oh, really? Yeah. Her name is Germanato? Germinata. Stephanie Germanata.
+
+[23:10] Yeah, so any skinny on that? I mean, I didn't like her band in college. Whoa! Jack's like, well, you know, I I heard her band in college. I wasn't a fan.
+
+[23:19] I wasn't. I wasn't. I just wasn't a fan. I just didn't, you know. I thought it was derivative work.
+
+[23:24] Kind of. Oh, musicians. Dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack et al. Thank you for your assistance with my last question on Sou Vied fried chicken. I haven't tried it since then, but your description of the problem with my process seems spot on.
+
+[23:37] Uh and this is the question, by the way, that I was researching and found phosphates and all sorts of other things. I did fried chicken for for Easter. Yeah, I told you about that lady at the Right Aid, right? No, maybe. I'm at the I'm at the right aid, like, you know, in February, and like they had Easter crap out.
+
+[23:52] She's like, Easter, ain't even Valentine's Over yet. Not Valentine's Day. Valentine, like it's a time of day. Ain't even Valentine's Over yet. Anyway, uh, I did fried chicken for Easter.
+
+[24:03] So whenever I say Easter now, I have to say fo Easter. Uh, and attempted to deep fry some bread and butter pickle chips to snack on. Bread and butter pickle chips. You like the bread and butter pickle, does? Uh no.
+
+[24:15] Really? Do you like any pickles? Uh yeah, I like really hard ones. But you don't like sweet pickles? Yeah.
+
+[24:21] But not bread and butter chips. No, no. No chips. Do you like so what type of sweet pickle do you like? The thin, small, crunchy suckers?
+
+[24:28] Small, crunchy. What are your thoughts on the bread and butter pickle, Jack? Sorry, I got distracted. Bread and butter pickle? Like 'em?
+
+[24:34] Hate 'em? Yeah, I like them. Yeah. Relish, you like relish? Nope.
+
+[24:37] No? No? Really? What about tartar sauce? No.
+
+[24:41] What? Really? What do you put on your on your fried uh on your like, you know, New England style fried seafood platters? I don't get that. You don't like fried seafood platters?
+
+[24:51] Let me tell you something, people. If you go to like the average, you know, clam shack on the in the ocean, like I like lambjacks. I don't like the food. Okay. But if you go to them, right, with the exception of like real East Coast lobster roll, which is decent, right?
+
+[25:07] If you're given a choice, they always have some crap called like the Admiral platter or something like this. You know what I mean? Always get it fried. The broiled is a huge mistake. Huge.
+
+[25:18] You don't like fried clams? Even with bellies on, the fresh ones? I don't like I don't like seafood. What do you like seafood? I mean, I like seafood fried seafood or cooked seafood.
+
+[25:30] I like a lobster roll. I don't like lobster. What the hell? See, fried seafood for me, I'd rather do like lemon on it than uh tartar sauce. Really?
+
+[25:40] Yeah, isn't that weird? Like just lemon? Yeah. Do you like mayonnaise on your french fries? Nope.
+
+[25:45] What the mean? Stas does. Well, you don't like french fries, freak show. Uh okay. Uh I used a flour, buttermilk, flour process, which is similar to the one I use for uh for chicken, and found that the flour generally rubs off quite a bit from the pickles after the buttermilk dip, leaving them partially unbreaded.
+
+[26:03] Still delicious, but I think they'd be better with evenly adhered breading. Do you have a surefire way to get good even breading adhesion for fried pickles? Thank you for your help, and I can't wait for my Searzal, Jeff Mays, Los Angeles, California. What are yours, does? Los Angeles.
+
+[26:17] So, um, here's the uh here's the deal. So uh I cheat. So look the old school like low-tech weight. The problem you're having is uh the high moisture content is creating like a lack of adhesion of the uh batter. So you're getting some sloth off probably right at the beginning.
+
+[26:36] I I I don't know whether you patted the pickle chips uh really, really dry before you started, uh before you did your first uh pre-dust. But I'll typically do that to to dry because I've done a bunch of uh I I used to do uh a lot of uh fried pickles, you know, uh, and I would dry them off a little bit. If that's not enough, you might even want to try letting them sit on a rack for a little while just to flash off some of their extra moisture, because what you're most likely dealing with here is a moisture control problem. Now, because every you know, all I've ever learned about batter adhesion tells me that you want uh the surface to be you know tacky and dry when you start. Now, of course, you know, going against that is the style that they do here and the pot pies and thighs style of fried chicken where they literally take it out of the brine and throw it right into the flour.
+
+[27:20] But you know, I've never I've never tested everything I've learned has said that in high moisture situations there's adhesion problems and also problems when you're frying of what's called blow off, where chunks of the batter will will pop off during the cooking or sloth off or not adhere properly to the food. Okay, so if if it's not adhering beforehand, there are a couple things you can do. You can add uh special I don't do this, but you can add uh specialty starches to the uh mix. So uh like a batter bind or uh there's another one that's uh used that's actually not sold by Modernist Pantry and not made by National Starch, it's made by the other corporation. Uh its name slips my mind right now.
+
+[27:59] But that you can add that will um and they're usually I think they use some form of oxidized starch because they're uh I think they're pre-I think they're pre-done oxidized starches, are usually what they're used in the in the uh batter adhesion ones. Uh but I don't really remember why. I just remember they're oxidized starches. And um those will increase adhesion uh dramatically. And so, you know, I was looking last night at some um at some microscope uh microscopy and also just cross-sectional uh things of different uh pre-dusts containing either nothing, control flour as a pre-dust, uh containing um uh methylcellulose uh and containing um oxidized starch, and the oxidized starch, sure enough, were like they were awesome uh in terms of adhesion.
+
+[28:44] So you can try adding a modified product like that to it, uh, or you can do the really old-fashioned way if you don't mind having a heavy batter coating on it. A lot of times for difficult things like okra, which tends to slip off a lot, like okra, even though it's got hair on the you like fried okra styles? Uh I haven't had it, I don't think. Oh my god. Jack, what about fried okra?
+
+[29:02] One of the few things I don't love, but I'll eat it. It's a little slimy. Oh, I'm not talking okra chopped up in a gumbo, I'm talking fried whole okra pods. You had it? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:11] I not fried. I've had whole okra pods, but not fried. All right, listen. Uh slimy. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.
+
+[29:20] When you're when you're like okay, you need to come over. We need to make you some fried whole okra because they're not they're only slimy when the stuff on the inside kind of escapes. When it stays on the inside of its own pod, right, when you're frying it, it I mean it still is what it is, but it doesn't have the feeling of sliminess because if the outside is like super crunchy, the fried, the fried okra on the outside, and you want to you want like a thick, crunchy breading layer on this. The outside and the inside is like melting and soft, but does not come off as slimy at all. And they're great.
+
+[29:57] The trick with it is is again, do not cut them at all. Leave them whole. And make sure when you're shopping for okra pods in the store, assuming that you don't have your own okra uh plants, um, you wanna a lot of times, especially where I live, they pre-package the okra in like little styro packs. You want to feel the uh okra pods because uh they start at a certain point the okra pods start getting woody on the outside uh and then you can feel them. You can feel the ones that are tender and the ones that are less tender, and just stay away from the ones that are less tender because you're not gonna be cooking them a long time like in a in a gumbo or a soup.
+
+[30:32] You're just gonna be frying them really quickly, so you want them to cook really quickly. So make sure you're starting with tender okra pods, bread those things and fry them, and that is some delicious stuff. And I've never had even I've had people who hate okra, and I've never had someone come back and say, you know what, like uh crap on that, that's not delicious, because that stuff's inherently delicious. But back to what I was saying, surprisingly, you would think that okra would have good adhesion, but it doesn't because it doesn't pick up pre-dusts well. Like the f the flour pre-dust that you put uh in a typical I mean uh everything depends on what kind of uh batter technology you're using.
+
+[31:06] So there's people who do pre-dust and then in a liquid flour batter, I don't do that. I do pre-dust into liquid, uh, then into a solid again. That's typically what I do. Um, but if if you're the pre-dust does not adhere at all to okra. So what you do is you do a pre-dust, a marginal amount of sticks, then you do your wet, then you do your solid, and it picks up some but still isn't coated, and then you do a quick rewet and then a quick quick solid again, at which point you have a nice thick, thick batter coating.
+
+[31:33] And if you don't mind having that thick of a coating, the double do on it always makes it stick to all to any damn thing. You're never gonna get it. And that's what I do on, especially on products that have a high uh high rate of melt outs like mozzarella sticks. Do you like fried mozzarella sticks at least? No.
+
+[31:48] Jesus. Jack, fried mozzarella sticks? Yes. Okay. Come on.
+
+[31:53] What the hell's wrong with these people? Um not you, Jack. You just saved yourself with that one. Fried mozzarella sticks. Do you like um do you like uh grilling cheese like uh queso parfouriera or halloumi?
+
+[32:03] No. Grilled. You had it? Really? I don't think I've had it.
+
+[32:07] No, I know I've had it. I don't have an opinion on it. You don't like grilled cheese? Like grilled cheese delicious hot and it turns squeaky when it gets cold. I hate squeaky cheese.
+
+[32:14] Yes, yes, yes. Well, that's why you gotta eat it when it's hot. That's why you eat it when it's hot. Eat it while it's hot, eat it while it's hot. So the um anywho, so uh I would I would use that.
+
+[32:23] I would do that. So if you don't want to do the double dip, which is inherently going to get it, then the the you know the next thing to do uh in terms of ease is uh partial uh pat down of them beforehand and dehydrate not your pat pat down and uh partial dehydration. Uh not not not so that they lose their crunchiness, just so that they're a little bit you know dry, a little bit pellicle formed on the outside. And then the next step up from that in technological difficulty is to add uh some modified starch to the uh pre-dust or to use a modified starch as the pre-dust. Uh and one of those things should help you out.
+
+[32:55] Yeah? Yeah. Uh okay. Um that make sense. Yep.
+
+[33:02] I love frying. Do you know that I have to I had to decommission my fryer? Did I tell you that? Did I say that in the air? Well, it wasn't a leak.
+
+[33:10] Did I tell us on the air? Did I talk about this? Uh I have to get around it. I have to get around it. You only have yeah, today's a short one.
+
+[33:18] I don't, yeah, my god. Okay. Uh question uh I don't have who the question is from. I hate that. Okay, uh, hey Dave, Nastasha, Jack et al.
+
+[33:27] I'm a big fan of the show. Finally caught up with all the back episodes a few weeks ago. Question number one. My wife and one of my daughters have a gluten intolerance after much gluten-free baking experimentation. My wife has found the most success using recipes for baking mixes from the gluten free on a shoestring blog.
+
+[33:43] HDTP, glutenfree on a shoestring.com. All purpose gluten-free flour recipes forward slash. Uh one of the keys for a palatable texture in baked goods is using uh these mi uh in uh baked good using these mixes is a super fine uh brown rice flour and a super fine white rice flour. Buying the super fine version of either of these flours is rather expensive. The best super fine rices uh we have found are from authenticfoods uh com.
+
+[34:10] But a regular rice flour results in a gritty product. Yeah, regular rice flour kind of sucks. Um we have tried using both our crappy blender uh and our food processor to grind a regular version of these rice flours to a finer consistency, but are not happy with the results. Uh Vitamix is already at the top of my kitchen wish list. Uh is that gonna be the best tool to use?
+
+[34:28] Would some kind of mill uh be better? Um that's Chip Smith. What's Chipsmith? That's his name of the Oh, hey Chipsmith. Uh I was like, I was like, I was like, that sounds awesome.
+
+[34:39] Shout out, Jackson, so we're not in the commercial. Shout out to John Riper. Oh, yeah. Just because do you want to do it? Like, do you want me to answer this question?
+
+[34:45] You want to do the quick commercial so that we get our get our bizzles paid? And then all right, let's do it. Why don't pass is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse. And it's own USDA inspected poultry abattoir, a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey.
+
+[35:13] One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oak Pastures.com. And we're back. Hey Jack, I had a question for you.
+
+[35:33] Yeah. Do you know of any farm that has its own USDA inspected uh red meat abattoir? Yeah, they also happen to have uh one of the best voiceover talents in the game working there. I know that like that guy like owns that. He owns it.
+
+[35:45] He owns it. Will Harris. We have our own red meat abattoir. I would buy I would buy red meat from that man. Yeah, right.
+
+[35:53] It's available at Whole Foods. They're the only five plus star-rated uh poultry at Whole Foods. They don't they don't have it at My Whole Foods. What Whole Foods do they have it at? I'll have to get back to you on that, but but check.
+
+[36:03] Because my son, Booker, the older one, is obsessed with animal welfare ratings. That's awesome. He's upset. So he's like, he like the Whole Food the Here's the mistake the Whole Foods made, right? So those of you that don't shop at Whole Foods, uh, if you go to the Whole Foods, uh they in their meat counters and in the in the cases on the side, not on processed goods, usually like Salumi, like LaQuerch, and all that stuff that they carry, which whatever we won't talk about that.
+
+[36:26] But the um on all of their kind of fresh meat goods, they put animal welfare ratings on it. The problem is this they start at one and then go to five plus, with one being the lowest grade that Whole Foods accepts, but it's still, you know, from an animal welfare standpoint, better than nothing. Right. You know what I'm saying? So they what they made him like the tactical error, I think, is that they and a lot of the stuff they have is ones.
+
+[36:53] A lot of it. You know what I mean? Like the majority is ones. And like, don't you think they should have like made it from like a one to like seven? Yeah.
+
+[36:59] And then not and then not bought one and two. And being like, Whole Foods only buys three, four, five, six, and seven. Yo. You know what I'm saying? Three will be the new one.
+
+[37:10] Well, they they work with it. We've done some cool coverage on this actually. Um and they work with the producers to kind of get them from one to five plus. So it's like by bringing them on board, they're like, okay, you're good enough, you're a one, we can sell you, and we're gonna help you get to a five plus. Right.
+
+[37:24] I mean, because yeah, there's like you know, there's different reasons to get into different aspects of um of um you know uh sustainable and or small farming, right? And one is that one is that you just don't like the way animals are treated in large farms, right? Right? They don't like the way they're treated, you don't like the way they're slaughtered. Regardless of taste, whether it tastes better or not, uh regardless of uh, you know, whatever, you're willing to pay more to have an animal that has been kind of treated well.
+
+[37:54] And uh yeah, five plus is the highest, and I believe that means that not only is it like animal centered, pasture centered, but it lives its whole life on the one farm, right? And is never taken off. And that's why they're probably the only people can do it, because they never have to ship their animals off site. I think he's done. Right.
+
+[38:12] He's like, I don't care anymore. No, sorry, somebody walked in. Oh yeah. You know, I think that's why though. Anyway, uh all right, they're gonna kick us off.
+
+[38:17] So let me answer this question uh soon. Uh Vitamix, uh I don't like grinding flour in uh a Vitamix. Because I'll tell you why. It's a huge mess and it like throws particles up in the inside, and then when you open the thing, you're inhaling rice flour particles. I've done it.
+
+[38:31] Food processors uh don't work as as you say. Uh I do not recommend, I don't know if you asked it. The only mill I've ever owned it uh like grinding mill is uh the KitchenAid makes a um a uh grain mill that you can attach to um to a Kitchen aid and it grinds things but I can't I'd love to recommend it and I really want it to be awesome but it's not uh like it's just not it's not doesn't cr produce a very very fine flour it's extremely slow it tends to heat things up um and I have I myself have never used a mill that I uh liked especially if you're gonna be grinding large quantities uh of something I've also tried using coffee mills to do uh grinding with uh not too much success so far I tried using you know those hand cranked um oh what's the Japanese name I forget uh anyway the one that we all have to do manual grinding I tried to grind a bunch of bean flour in that and that was a ruddy mess too so um I'm sorry to say that uh I you know there are ones out there and I'm but I I hesitate to recommend any of them because I haven't used them but go look for a high quality uh grain mill I would say don't get the KitchenAid uh grain mill for this application KitchenAid grain mill works great for and of course you don't care because you're doing gluten-free stuff but like when I was doing uh all grain brewing to break up uh to break up barley it's great for coarser things it's great but like if you're doing a especially if you're gonna do a lot of grains other than rice anything that has a high oil content the KitchenAid's gonna uh seize up on you so I'll try to look in more and get uh more recommendations for you for uh the next time around or if anyone please wants to send me some um grain mill recommendations into at cooking issues on the Twitter. I will gladly pass them on. Not next week's show, because next week I will be in uh I will be flying uh to France.
+
+[40:26] I'm gonna visit the Carthusian monks who make one of my favorite beverages, a chartreuse. Um You're not gonna be here next week? No, I'm not gonna be in France. But I'm not but I'm not gonna be usually when I'm in when I'm in another country I can call in and say something, but the You'll be on a plane. I'll be on a plane.
+
+[40:42] Uh and I think I'll be on a plane. I'll have to look up where I am because unfortunately my travel both times is on a Tuesday. So if I can do it next week, I will call in because I don't want to miss two weeks. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[40:54] Um but I had one more thing on grain before. Oh, uh for inexpensive supply of very fine grain rice flour, go to Asian markets. Don't go to your standard uh, you know, uh, you know, Western supermarket. You can get really, really inexpensive, extremely fine-grained rice flours at uh Asian supermarkets. So if you live anywhere near one, um you can go get it and you can get I mean, obviously they sell what's called glutinous rice flour.
+
+[41:21] It doesn't really have gluten in it because it's rice flour, and they sell various grades and types of rice flours along with many other gluten-free uh like strange flours, like yam flowers and whatnot. And they're dirt cheap. They're on the level of price of AP flour. But I do uh think that you know you should look into getting a mill of your own. I just don't happen to have a decent recipe.
+
+[41:41] So uh I will answer your next question. Uh the next time we are on, and it's an interesting one, Stas. I want you to think about this. Uh I'll read the question, but then since we don't have the time, I will not answer it. Uh I'm a big fan of pasta putinesca.
+
+[41:54] You like that? Even though it has a name that you don't like, or do you it's okay? But you don't like the name. No, you don't like the name. Nastas doesn't like names like that.
+
+[42:02] Uh, I usually make more than uh what I will eat at one meal because I like having it the next day as cold pasta. Do you like colpaza? No. At all? What about like American pasta style?
+
+[42:13] Even though it's got mayonnaise on it? All right. Uh Jack, you don't like the pasta salad because it's got the mayonnaise. I feel a mayonnaise. That's right.
+
+[42:19] I do like cold pasta though. Yeah. Generally, yeah. What about like what about how do you guys feel about like cold sesame noodles? Those things are delicious.
+
+[42:24] Oh, yeah, delicious. No, no. She's like, no, no. She's like, she's it's not the vegan face. It's like the head pressed as far back into her neck as possible, head rapidly shaking back and forth.
+
+[42:34] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh something I've noticed about eating it the next day when it is cold or at room temperature, I need to add salt. What's the deal? Is the colder temperature changing how I perceive the flavors that much? Thanks.
+
+[42:46] Well, that is an interesting and I think more complicated than uh you would think. Um question. So we'll get to it next time, but the hints are that your perception of all flavors, most flavors, change uh with temperature. How they relate to each other change with temperature, but also the food itself might be changing due to adsorption of salt absorption of salt into the pasta over the course of the night. So we'll talk about these various effects the next time on cooking issues.
+
+[43:18] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[43:43] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five generation Georgia based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit Whiteoak Pastures dot com. I'm Grace Bonnie of After the Jump, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. And we are back.
+
+[0:34] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie coming to you live, but not from Roberta's Jack. Jack, you there? I'm here. Jack is in Roberta's Pizzeria hanging out at the radio station.
+
+[0:44] Unfortunately, I uh I have to call in. But I didn't want to miss again. Nastasha's also calling in. Hey Staz. Hey, how are you?
+
+[0:51] All right, where are you? You're in uh midtown somewhere. They're over there in the old kitchen, uh, the layer of N. Nastasha tried moving downtown once and she couldn't handle the downtown air and she can't basically survive anywhere other than in Hell's Kitchen. It's pretty much true, Stas.
+
+[1:04] Very true. Yeah. Yeah. So how are you doing? How am I drinking?
+
+[1:09] Well, I'm not so eh, meh. I'll be all right. Uh but uh yeah, next time we'll do it in in the in the in the radio in the radio show. It's been a crazy couple of weeks. The first two weeks, uh I was like literally flying on Tuesday and Tuesday, and so you know, we couldn't do the radio show.
+
+[1:29] Uh and then uh the week after that, last week, I was uh doing foie gras, which we can talk about uh I was shooting a foie gras thing for vice. We were talking about the um Floie Gras ban in California that uh was passed a long time ago, but just went into uh effect about a year and a half ago. And so they were doing a uh kind of a documentary on uh government intervention in food in foodstuffs, uh focused mainly on we're focused a hundred percent on the on the foie gras thing. But I actually got to visit when I was in France a foie gras uh farm where they were doing the gavage on geese. Yeah, saw the force feeding.
+
+[2:05] The lady would not f attempt to force feed me. She would I asked. I specifically said, Hey, can you stick that tube down my throat and do it? She's like, No. No, she wouldn't do it.
+
+[2:14] Can you believe that stuff? You would have done it. Yeah. You totally would have shoved that tube down my throat. Yeah.
+
+[2:22] Yeah. Yeah. Um but anyway, uh anyone out there with a question? Call in your question. It's 27184972128.
+
+[2:28] That's 7184972128, which is exactly what I just did. I just called my question in to you. Seven one well, I can't remember I can't remember the number. It's been so damn long since we've done it. But anyway, uh I could we could not miss another week.
+
+[2:39] It's been too too long. So let me get to some of the questions that we had written in for uh last week. Brandon Byrd wrote in on uh vacuum. Maybe later we could talk about foie gras. You want to talk about foie gras later on?
+
+[2:51] Sure. All right. Anything else? Anything else been happening? Anything good, anything bad?
+
+[2:56] Um no. Nothing. Nothing we should talk about on the radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not meant to sound ominous, people.
+
+[3:03] Anyway, uh Brandon Byrd wrote in, not like Brendan Byrne Arena, Brandon Byrd uh wrote in uh about vacuum uh mach uh vacuum machines, uh searing, uh, and Jack, you might want to take note. I'll I'll tell you the last thing he wrote. He said, please ask Jack to play Seltzer by Bluto. It's one of my favorites, someone who actually likes the seltzer song, Jack. Wow, you're gonna have to give it to me.
+
+[3:26] I don't have the Master Bluetooth copy. No. Oh, yeah, that's right. You played it off my phone that time, right? Yeah, we gotta get that in the rotation.
+
+[3:33] Yeah. Wow. First real Bluetooth real Pluto super fan. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, you know, that's the whole theory of that song is that and I don't have that problem anymore because for it like this is why like the song is no longer current.
+
+[3:46] I mean, I wrote I wrote those those lyrics uh along with our band in like nineteen uh ninety or something, uh ninety ninety no no, like ninety one, ninety two, something like that. And so uh the deal was back then that you know you had to buy your seltzer in bottles and then you have the bottle that's left in the fridge. I don't know if we look, I'm sure many many people who listen here probably drink seltzer, right? I mean, that's probably fair that a lot of us drink bubbly water uh because you know, if you like me, you probably like bubbly water. Except my mom doesn't.
+
+[4:16] My mom doesn't like bubbly water. But anyways, point being that back in the day, for those of you that are old enough to not have a soda stream or uh or a carbonation unit, you had to buy bottles of seltzer. And the problem always was is that you had and in Jack, do you like seltzer? Of course. Yeah.
+
+[4:33] Stas, I know you like seltzer. You buy it in what? How many liters bottle do you buy it in? Liter. One liter.
+
+[4:39] Why don't you buy a two-liter bottle of seltzer? Yeah, because it goes freaking flat. Unless I know I'm gonna make a lot of it. But uh seltzer, even though you drink vastly more seltzer than you drink soda, you always buy it in one liter bottles, and that's because it it does taste horrible when it goes when it goes flat. But this is so the whole song is crafted around this idea.
+
+[5:07] And I remember like I would buy cases of seltzer, and then someone would come over and they're like, Can I have some seltzer I just line a little bit? And I would all be always pissed because as soon as I crack that bottle, that bottle's ruined. You know, it's over. You know what I mean? It's like it's done.
+
+[5:19] And so uh yeah, so that song was basically about that the whole phenomenon of of uh seltzer going to crap in your fridge. Dave, if this all goes well, can we host the Bluetooth reunion conversation? I have to find all the I mean, I know I know uh where I know where two out of the three other folks in Bluto are. Uh one of them is still in New Haven. Uh one of them is uh a lawyer here, and uh I've got to find the third person.
+
+[5:47] He was a classics uh student at the time, and for all I know he's a classics professor now. He could find him. Well, if the listener demand goes up enough, we might just have to make it happen. Yeah, yeah. RuPa plays Seltzer Live.
+
+[5:59] Be awesome. Um that was just our one food related song. It was actually we had another song with a slightly food related thing called uh Weekend at Count Sporculas. Because sporks are awesome, as everyone knows. Anyway, uh they're actually not awesome, like you love the like sports are one of those things where everyone loves the idea of the spork, but the spork itself is always disappointing.
+
+[6:19] Have you noticed that? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like gin and tonics where like the idea is so awesome, but most of them suck. Someone's gonna come up with a good spork someday.
+
+[6:27] Anyways, um back to uh Brandon Bird's question. Uh thanks so much for your hard work over the years on the show. I've been a reader of the blog for a while, but only recently took it upon myself to listen to the podcast. I had no idea what I've been missing. So that's like I do.
+
+[6:39] I've had to listen to every damn podcast live. Like it's even worse. Like she can't even although she does try to zone out, it's like much more difficult when you're actually sitting next to me. Am I right, Stuz? That's very true.
+
+[6:48] Yeah. Uh I've managed to listen to your first a hundred episodes over the past couple of months, which has some dedication right there. That is some dedication. Well, going on long walks with my dog, and it's been a tremendously rewarding and entertaining experience. I've learned more than I've ever imagined from your show, so please keep up the good work.
+
+[7:02] I've got a few questions for you guys. I recently acquired a chamber vacuum sealer, a Vacmaster VP 112, which by the way, uh is one of the machines, like the uh lower cost machines a lot of people ask me about. They have I've we've had stuff. How many people have asked me about that a lot, right? But I haven't used it, so I can't, you know, I I I can't I can't comment.
+
+[7:18] Anyway. And the first thing I did was buy some fruit and some booze to experiment with vacuum infusion. Good, good man. Uh I was extremely happy with the results, but was surprised by how much flavor from the fruit was transferred into the surplus liquor in the bag. I've done rapid infusions in an Easy canister, you know, the whipped cream canisters, but the results in the chamber vac seem to work comparably well to the EC infusions, though I didn't do a controlled test.
+
+[7:41] Have you done any experiments to see how these two techniques compare to each other in terms of flavor extraction? Do either offer advantages that the other lacks, and have you ever tried uh doing a pressure infusion in an ISI and then immediately transferring to a chamber of ac to get further extraction? Um, so let's handle that one first. So they are a little bit different. Uh and, you know, come November time when my book comes out, I've written like extremely long-winded uh uh, you know, um chapter on the difference between between the two of them, but you can get comparative comparable results.
+
+[8:14] And in fact, I came up with the the pressure infusion uh idea as a result of thinking about the mechanics of vacuum infusion. Here's the difference. When you're using a vacuum machine to infuse, you're putting uh a fruit or whatever into your booze, you're sucking a vacuum, and the infusion hasn't started happening yet, right? What you're doing is sucking the air out of the fruit. So the fruit's got all these air holes in it, you suck the air out, right?
+
+[8:38] But no infusion has happened. You might be now at some point you're boiling, probably, unless it's really cold, you're boiling some liquid out from the fruit onto the surface. So you're getting probably some transfer of literal fruit juice into the liquor at that point, like right at the get-go, right? But you're not infusing anything into the fruit yet. All of a sudden, you let the air back in and wham, the the air pressure comes in, obviously it hits liquid, liquid is incompressible, so the liquid gets forced into what used to be air holes in the uh fruit, and now you have liquid booze inside your fruit, right?
+
+[9:13] So now you have fruit that has uh some booze in it. Now, maybe some flavor uh in the in the liquor at this point, probably not that much. If you suck a second vacuum, you reboil that liquid out of the fruit, and now you have uh both a fruit that's infused and a liquor that's infused, right? And yes, this is similar to what you get in uh in an EC, but the issue is is that the pressure differential in a vacuum machine is only ever about 15 pounds per square inch. Whereas the pressure that you can use to force things in and actually increase the rate of uh of diffusion and uh the rate of things moving around is much higher in in in an EC bottle, right?
+
+[9:52] And they what I've noted is that the higher the pressure when I increase the pressure in an EC, the higher the pressure, the kind of more rapid the effects of infusion are. So you're getting a more rapid effect. So I would say that the EC is a lot more flexible because you have a wider pressure range you can work on. And it's also easier to do longer term things in an EC because you can keep it under pressure for uh a long time. And also uh you tend uh I would guess that you can do multiple EC things without losing as many volatiles as you would if you were sucking a constant vacuum on things, which can cause uh loss of volatiles through distillation.
+
+[10:28] So I think there's different, but they can be used uh they can be used similarly. Also, EC you can do warm, whereas a vacuum you can't. So you can speed infusions by doing things warm or even hot. And and another thing that they mean the dis the main disadvantage of the EC, right? There's two.
+
+[10:44] The two main disadvantages of the EC are one, you're limited in volume. You can only do what your uh canister will hold, right? That's the main one. And the second one is you have to spend money every time you do the infusion because you have to buy the cartridges. So those are the two main disadvantages.
+
+[11:03] The main disadvantage but for instance, if you're getting a comparable result in your EC to your vacuum, I would say, and you want more infusion, I would say, add an extra cartridge. Bang, you're gonna get more infusion. I normally do all of my infusions with two cartridges, all of them. Sometimes I do three, but they don't let me say that. And then uh uh you know, after that, I can also, instead of letting it go one, two, two minutes, I can let it go three, four, five minutes and really ramp up the the uh the infusion.
+
+[11:32] The reason I don't is most of the time when I'm doing a rapid infusion, I'm doing it specifically for the effect that it has, which means that what the rapid infusion does as opposed to traditional infusion is it uh it can pull out flavors uh in in different ways. It's hard to explain. So for instance, in uh in a hot pepper, uh you have the flavor of the pepper and then you have the heat from the pepper. In a long term infusion, you get a lot of the heat, and the heat a lot of times can drown out the flavor of the pepper, right? In a shorter infusion time, you get more kind of equal levels of heat and uh and pepper flavor, right?
+
+[12:10] So now I can do one of two things with the rapid infusion now. I can either uh let the rapid infusion go longer, and then it's more like a traditional infusion, which means it's gonna have more heat in it, right, uh as opposed to pepper flavor. So the heat will rise in relation to the pepper flavor, or I could just add a ridiculous amount of pepper and keep the time the same. And that's in general what I do. So when I'm trying to do rapid infusions, I'm usually trying to take advantage of some sort of uh differential infusion that happens over short time scales.
+
+[12:41] And so instead of increasing the time, um I increase the amount of ingredient that I'm infusing. So when you're tasting uh two things, you shouldn't just taste for the strength of the overall infusion, right, which can depend on a number of variables, but you should taste on the balance of the infusion as well. But uh vacuum and EC are doing somewhat similar if turned on their head kind of thing. Does that make that make sense, Doug? Yeah, that does.
+
+[13:06] All right. All right. Uh now, uh I have another question on vacuum sealing, garlic and botulism. This is a good one because we've gotten this one a couple times too. I usually do low temp sou v cooking for immediate service at home, but since I got a chamber vac, I've wanted to do cook chill freeze cooking for economy and deliciousness.
+
+[13:22] And time saving, my friend, time saving. Uh when my chamber vac arrived, I stocked up on chicken breasts that were on sale and cooked them at low temp at 62 for one hour with garlic, olive oil, and some oids. That's herbs that I like to pronounce it oids. Uh that's my standard technique for uh cook serve low temp chicken. I let them rest for 20 minutes at room temp and submerge them in cold tap water for 20, and then show them in ice water for 30 before moving to the freezer.
+
+[13:46] Man, somebody's really like read up on their faux gousot. That's the full gousot chilling technique, by the way. So for those of you that aren't like a hip to uh cooling curves on uh low temp work, uh you know, you and I thought this was a load of horse crap, but uh, you know, years ago when uh Bruno Gusot, who's uh the you know the chief one of the chief guys at uh cuisine solutions there and kind of the you know one of the uh grandfathers of uh low temp cooking, you know, he told me that you don't want to chill meat incredibly quickly when it comes out of the bath because you want it to reabsorb the liquids uh more that you want it to chill slowly because if it chills slowly it reabsorbs more of the cooking liquids that it exudes as it uh as it you know uh as it cooks it exudes liquids if it cools more slowly then it will put it back in and so he has this ramped cooling thing and Nils and I were like ah it's crap it's this crap and then we ran the test and it turns out to work. But anyway, so you've been doing your homework on the cooling. But anyway, uh it was only a few days later that I realized that there's a botulism risk cooking with garlic in a vacuum I'm reasonably sure that these are safe to heat but appreciate any clarifications you you could offer on the relationship between botulism temperature and vacuum levels.
+
+[14:52] Okay. I'm gonna say this before I get into a long-winded explanation uh so that someone might like lose track of what I'm saying it's fine. This is not a problem. The problem with uh bot botrulism will not grow in the freezer. Botulism will not grow at uh 60 degrees uh Celsius right so in when you're cooking the the problem with botulism is that uh botulism isn't botulism isn't destroyed by uh either freezing or by uh cooking at normal temperatures right so it it it won't you know you can kill the vegetative uh let me be more clear there's two things that happen uh there's vegetative cells active bacteria and then the reason that botulism is such a tricky little weasel to work with is that it also forms spores.
+
+[15:44] So whenever you start killing off botulism cells, uh botulism bacteria, rather. Whenever you start killing off botulism bacteria, uh some of them turn into spores. And those spores are extremely resistant to uh being uh destroyed by heat. You have to pressure cook to get rid of them. And that's why when you pressure cook something, all of a sudden it's shelf stable, right?
+
+[16:06] Okay, so uh and you're not gonna do that. So the the issue is is that uh as long as you uh heat it, right, you're not causing anything dangerous because you're cooking and destroying vegetative cells, and as long as you uh cool it and then keep it frozen and you did it a reasonable amount of time, there's no way for those spores to regerminate into vegetative cells, and then go from that stage to reproducing and producing uh toxin, right? So the long and the short of it is you're okay. The dangerous, the really dangerous thing would be to cook garlic. And the reason why everyone picks on garlic is because uh people a lot of times will throw garlic into oil.
+
+[16:50] Garlic has a fairly high water uh activity uh and it comes from the soil, so it's you know, and botulism is ubiquitous, means it's everywhere, but a lot of times in the soil you throw it into oil, the oil environment seals it off from oxygen, you have botulism growing on the garlic, and you know, you're done. Uh well, you could be done. That's why that's why it's always garlic and botulism, because it's common, you want to do it, it doesn't look dangerous, uh, etc. etc. Um so as long as you're doing this what you're saying, you're fine.
+
+[17:18] Now, if you were to uh store those suckers at room temperature, well, you could get hosed. You know what I mean? That's incredibly dangerous. But you can store there's there's nothing inherently dangerous about garlic in oil, as long as you're keeping everything at safe uh holding and storage temperatures. Make sense, Doug?
+
+[17:38] Yep. Alright. Uh okay. Um see. And final question.
+
+[17:43] I know that you like to sear low-tep meats in a scorching, scary hot pan. I've heard you mention the standard consumer range won't get quite hot enough to produce the level of sear that you prefer. True. Uh until my sear's all uh time my citers all arrives, I'm left searing a cast iron pan over either my grasp gas range or my gas grill, a Weber Genesis E330, uh, which I haven't used that one. Today I tried searing ribeyes, which is always a good call.
+
+[18:05] I love a rib, it's a good steak. That I brushed with clarified butter in a cast iron pan that I preheated on the grill for 20 minutes. My infrared gun style thermometer indicated the pan was 820 Fahrenheit when I put the steaks in. Immediately they smoked up like a bastard. It was intense.
+
+[18:19] What lipid, if any, do you coat your meat steaks with before searing? And do you have a preferred temperature range that you aim for? Thanks for the show and best witches, uh, Brandon Byrd. Okay. Uh yeah, it's gonna smoke like a bastard.
+
+[18:29] This is why like I, you know, like my wife uh gets angry sometimes, like when I like uh I'm not even gonna get it. One time I I bought a uh I think I told us on the show once, Stas. I tell us one on the show once where she like you did, yeah. Yeah. Well I was good, I'll do it really quickly.
+
+[18:44] It was her birthday, and uh I wanted to make some really good steaks, so I bought a charcoal, uh like a mini charcoal hibachi with stas. Did I ever end up giving that to you or is that one too burnt out? No, I think you no, yeah, yeah, I have it. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[18:57] And but Order, I maybe that's a different one. You got the you've got the little Joe that we got for the school. We tried to do the same thing at the school, remember? Right, yes. And everyone was all pissy about the smoke.
+
+[19:07] Why does everyone get so pissy about smoke? It's like everyone wants to be all like, you know, tough and like. As soon as there's a little bit of smoke, people get all whiny. You know what I mean? Very true.
+
+[19:17] That's so ridiculous. You know what I mean? It's like uh I don't know, don't think start it. I mean, look, I under look, I'm a firm believer in like air quality in general, and you know, some issues with uh I remember we I've talked about it a bunch of times, like that preliminary research years ago on uh cooking fumes uh from walks and women in China and increase uh levels of cancer cancer. But um whatever.
+
+[19:38] I'm not talking about that. I just I don't know why everyone is as soon as there's any smoke, people are like, it's smoky, it's smoky in the kitchen. How many times have you heard that in your life, Stas? So many. But then the fire extinct the fire or whatever thing goes off, you know.
+
+[19:50] Yeah, but why does everyone get so worried? And then like once the fire thing goes off, people get creepy and set off the fire alarm. Oh, you set off the smoke alarm. And he says he can cook. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[20:05] It was so freaking irritating. I was like, this is why your food tastes bad, because you're not willing to set off the damn smoke detector when you're cooking something. You know what I mean? See, I would rather take the hit and set off the smoke detector and have the steak taste good. So that's where my priorities are, right?
+
+[20:22] My priorities aren't with the the look, the uh uh okay, okay, I'm gonna backpedal a little bit. You can't piss off the people who are gonna eat so much that they're not gonna enjoy the food because then you're shooting yourself in the foot. It's all about the enjoyment of the food. But I just get so irritated that people can't people can't just yeah, I don't know, you know what I mean? It's just uh it's a constant source of irritation.
+
+[20:41] Jack, what do you think about this? I'm still tripped up on spores in that nostasia didn't really. Wait, what happened oh spoo spoo Yeah, Nastasha hates a spore. Anyway, uh so here's my thing. Yes, it's gonna smoke like a bastard.
+
+[20:57] That's just a fact of life. Uh you can't really measure the surface of your pan and get an accurate uh temperature of what's gonna happen because the temperature of the pan will probably drop fairly quickly once you put the meat on it. As for uh butt, it's good, it's a good it's good. I mean, uh mine usually are rocking somewhere around uh six fifty or higher. See, it depends.
+
+[21:18] Like cast iron at like seven hundred is thin, uh you're gonna get more char out of like a uh a giant stone rock at eight hundred. I mean, all depends on how fast it can it can uh deliver this stuff. So cast iron, I don't know. It that that should be fine. In other words, like that temperature should be fine, but it's gonna smoke, and you're gonna need more oil than you think.
+
+[21:38] What I typically do, I typically use olive oil, by the way. And what I will do is I'll uh put the pan on, I'll get it hot, I'll pour oil literally into the pan. It will immediately start smoking. Uh and you just want to be careful because it might ignite here. Carefully put the steak into the oil.
+
+[21:56] The reason is a pre-cooked steak, uh, it doesn't conform to the surface of a pan like a raw one does. So if you just brush with oil, you're liable to have blonde spots, whereas if you had like a good, you know, eighth inch or something in the bottom of your pan, you'll hit all of the points and you'll brown all the way across the thing. But uh just be aware it will catch on fire. Uh there will be flame and there will be smoke, and you should just tell whoever's looking at you and calling you incompetent to shut the hell up and sit down and get ready to eat the steak. That's just my feeling.
+
+[22:25] You know what I mean? Yep. Um you'll take a quick all right, we're gonna take a quick break, gonna be right back with some more cooking issues. Um is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse. And it's um USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slower house.
+
+[23:00] We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oak Pastures.com. Oh yeah.
+
+[23:30] Abattoir. The way that man says abattoir makes me want to go get something slaughtered. You know what I'm saying? Seriously. That is awesome.
+
+[23:39] White Oak Pastures. Love that guy. All right. Uh Dana writes in about PID controller. So uh for those of you, I don't know, maybe this is the first time you've tuned in or whatever, uh, PID is uh is the type of controller, it stands for uh I think uh proportional uh integrative and uh derivative, I think, or something like this.
+
+[23:57] Uh controller that's used to do all of the uh immersion circulators, and because what they do is instead of the temperature like going up and then uh overshooting the mark like a standard thermostat and then going down and up and but purpoising back and forth, they like ramp up and then they stay solid on on the uh they stay solid on the temperature that you want. That's PID controller, and that's what we all use for our immersion circulators. Common mistake people do is they think they want to add like a PID controller to things like a deep fryer, which you don't. The reason is a deep fryer you want to go as fast as possible. It's all about recovery time.
+
+[24:30] PIDs aren't about recovery time. They're about accuracy. So you s always remember when you ask for PID to make sure that you actually want one. That said, you often want one. Okay.
+
+[24:39] Uh to Dana's question. Uh and it's always had this problem. You think Dana's a man or a woman? Why? P I D.
+
+[24:49] I feel like it's mostly men to ask, but you know what? Like you're probably freaking right, but it just pisses me off so much. This goes back to that article that that lady wrote years ago. Were you working with me? Or Mindy Mindy was working with me, I think it's time.
+
+[25:00] Were you working with me when the Times wrote that article? Was saying about like like technology in the kitchen, like about boys and their toys. Mm-hmm. I was like, it's ridiculous. It's so crazy.
+
+[25:09] Like, you know what I mean? It's like, why is it why is it that why is it it's associated with men? It doesn't, you know, you know, uh, whatever. Uh I want to build an electric kettle for brewing beer, uh brew in a bag style. Brew in a bag.
+
+[25:23] I think brewing a bag came out uh after I had stopped uh my home brewing, but fundamentally what you do is you put the I guess you put the you put your your grains in a in a fat ass sack, as Ludacris would say, and then put it into the kettle that you're eventually going to use, and then you can pull it out instead of having to have multiple containers to do it in. Uh yes, here it says brewing bag eliminates the traditional three vessel system and uses the kettle as the mash ton and boil kettle. Uh you like ludicrous styles or no? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[25:51] Yeah, he's pretty funny. I don't like uh some of this stuff's good. Some like some of the stuff I think is really good, and then some of the stuff when it's too I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I like it when he's got some more of a sense of humor about himself, you know what I mean?
+
+[26:02] Yeah. Uh I'm going to use an old keg as the kettle, and I'd like to use a 240 volt 5,500 watt heater element to heat up uh the 10 gallons of water. And by the way, Dana, I didn't have the time to do the calculations, but I'm sure you already have. There's plenty of uh Google calculators out there where you can calculate the um the heating rate, uh, you know, you assume a certain efficiency for the heater, but you can calculate the heating rate uh for a particular volume of water with a particular wattage of heaters. So I'm presenting that you've already checked that, but that sounds good.
+
+[26:32] Uh I'd also like to use a PID controller so I can accurately hold the water at mash temp for 90 minutes, then raise it to mash out temp, mash out so when you're mashing uh when you make a beer, you take the grain, uh the grain has uh been uh the barley has been uh malted, the malting means that it started to germinate, the enzymes are there, therefore to break the carbohydrate in the barley down to sugar, right? Uh and then uh so you know that's that's how that works. But you have to what you have to do is eventually raise the temperature enough to kill the uh enzymes, and killing the uh enzymes off is called mashing out so that you don't necessarily get uh at least that's my memory. It's been a million years since I've had to do this stuff. Uh so anyway, uh back to the question.
+
+[27:19] Uh see, then boiled in. That was a long way around my actual question, so I've been listening to Dave a bit too much. Yes, so again, he's saying that his question, we're presuming it's a heat, is so long that he's been listening to me because I do the same thing. Fair. Uh I know there's a lot of info in the forums about electric brewing, but uh all the info seems to assume is the reader possesses some electrical knowledge, of which I have little.
+
+[27:40] Not none, but little. So I assume it goes like this. Uh well, and then he he has a uh like a directional kind of diagram here, which I'm not gonna go into. I'm just gonna tell you the right way to do it. So a heating element, it's it involves the heating element, the PID controller, the solid state relay, and the plug into into an outlet, right?
+
+[27:59] Now, here's the issue. You're using a 240 volt uh uh thing, so you're gonna want to be careful. 110 is not inherently safe, but it's more safe than 200 and uh 220 or 240 or whatever you want to call it. So you just want to be a little bit careful when you're using voltages like that. Uh especially because you're going to be switching the you're going to be switching that that kind of a high voltage, so it's going to be present near where you're working.
+
+[28:24] Heaters are dumb elements, right? So all the heater wants to be uh have happened is to get plugged directly into a wall, right? And so what you want to think about it is is that the PID controller and the solid state relay, all they are is uh a switch that is going between the the wall current and the heater. So here's how it works. First of all, make sure you have a PID controller that can run off the 240.
+
+[28:48] Otherwise, if you need to, you can run off two circuits. You can run the PID off of a wall socket and you can run the heater off of a 240, but it's not necessary. Many PID controllers can handle the direct uh 220 slash 240. Most of them run at like 120 to 240 and between 50 and 60 cycles, so you could take it to Europe if you need to. Anyways, but just read the specs on it.
+
+[29:09] So then you take uh an extension cord. Now remember, this is not the advice of a trained electrician. Electrocute yourself at your own peril. This is just how it works. So then you take the um, and depending on how you use it.
+
+[29:22] So for instance, in a normal 110 line, you have a power and then you have a return. And the power has got the full 110 on it, right? Or 125, whatever you want to call it, 120, uh wiggling up and down, AC, uh alternating current, and then the other line is basically dead. It's a return that you send the power back to to ground on to the circuit thing. So you could touch on an AC, regular 110 AC line, 120, you could touch uh the neutral and you know, lick your don't do this.
+
+[29:54] Lick your finger, touch the neutral, and touch something, and you won't get shocked, right? Now, uh standard household 220, that's not the case. Uh both lines will be hot all the time, but they'll be going opposite of each other, right? So you'll have 110 on or 120, let's say, on each line, but because remember, AC is a wave, it goes up and down, so they go opposite each other, so it goes all the way up to you get 120 plus 120 to 40. So you there's no safe, there's no safe line, right?
+
+[30:25] So you're gonna have to do it a little bit differently than you would with with a 110 line, but it's fundamentally the same. So you need to apply power to your PID controller. Then the PID controller has uh, let me see, one, two, maybe this three, four. It has these. It has it has power, right?
+
+[30:43] Which is gonna be your AC power lines that you've got to attach to it from the plug from the wall. It's then gonna have uh a thermocouple input, right, which has two connectors on it. Make sure you hook it up because especially if you're using a K-type thermocouple, it's very easy to reverse them. Um because the the red one, and I always get it uh uh messed up, I have to remember it. The red one, which you think is positive, is actually the negative, but I have to I have to go and look at it again.
+
+[31:07] But I'm pretty sure that's true. Uh and then you have uh usually a relay. Well, you usually there's a small solid state relay in the PID controller itself, but that relay is not intended to handle the power of switching something big like a 5,000 watt heater, right? So that's why you need, and sometimes it just says it puts 5 volts out or whatever, which is fine, or 12 or whatever. Fine.
+
+[31:32] Uh that's why you need the solid state relay. Now, the reason you want a solid state relay and not a regular relay is I hate that clicking, first of all, like they're they're fairly cheap now. And the real relays, they sit there and they click. And also uh real relay, especially a big power rela relay like that, doesn't like to be turned off and on very rapidly. Whereas solid state relay, there's no actual moving parts, it doesn't matter.
+
+[31:57] It can turn off and on as much as it wants. So like your PID controller if it's sitting there pulsing the the heater off and on, it's not gonna bother, you're not gonna hear a click, it's not gonna have a mechanical issue. That's why a solid state relay. So what you do is is you have the power the wall power goes to your uh the wall power goes to your PID controller. Uh your thermocouple goes to your PID controller.
+
+[32:19] Uh one wire uh your the the in and the out go to the low voltage side of your solid state relay and then uh on the other side of your solid state relay you have um one side of power from the wall going to one side of the heater and then on the other side of the heater coming out of it you have it go to uh one of the the output of the solid state relay and then the input of the high voltage side of the solid state relay then goes uh to uh to back to to to the wall. Does this make any sense, Doz? Yeah. No? Yeah I mean what what's happening is is that you're putting power to the P I D controller.
+
+[33:01] The P I D controller is sending a low voltage signal to the solid state relay and this and the solid state relay is in effect like just uh flipping a switch uh that is opening and closing a circuit between one of the two wires in the high voltage circuit that is the heater. See what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Does that make more sense a little bit? It's very hard to explain on the radio.
+
+[33:24] Very easy with a picture. Very hard to explain on the radio. Maybe you should draw a picture and then tweet it or something. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Are there any safety features you would want to add since I have friends that would like me to build one for them?
+
+[33:36] So I want to make sure it's completely safe, you know, as and not burn their houses down. Yeah, just make sure that you uh let me ask, I haven't I have to have an architect in the room with me. Do they have 240 volt uh GFI? Uh we should I would look. I would make sure that you get you uh have a GFI socket.
+
+[33:53] I don't have never worked with 240 uh with PID, so I mean all of my knowledge is on 120, and in 120 I just make sure everything's in GFI. I put uh fuses and everything and just make sure you're totally safe. But I will uh I will I will draw a picture and tweet it, Stas. You have a good uh you have a good uh good idea there. Thanks.
+
+[34:11] Uh in conclusion, uh yeah. I tell you in bold the podcast, so that's good. Dana says that's give me a big all yeah on the podcast. I've listened to the entire back catalog twice. Keep them good working.
+
+[34:24] I can't imagine that. No, I can't What's up? I said they can't imagine that. No, not me neither. Uh Nick writes in about Doritos.
+
+[34:34] Uh hey, uh Nastasha, Dave, and Jack. I like making popcorn as a snack. That's a good statement. Right there, right? I mean, I like popcorn as a snack.
+
+[34:41] You guys? It's the best. Yeah, popcorn, good product. I like making popcorn as a snack, and lately I've been playing around with flavorings. I'm trying to recreate the flavor of zesty cheese Doritos available in Canada because they are delicious.
+
+[34:55] This is also a good reason to do something. I've never had a zesty cheese Dorito, uh, but you know, because it's Canadian, uh, you know, um I got a picture of it here from Nick, and they have to write it in French as well. And zesty cheese in French sounds terrible. Fromage melodon, like mordant. That doesn't sound delicious.
+
+[35:14] Why are there so many flavors of Doritos now? Oh, that's an extra interesting question. So, like one of the things, uh, one of the reasons why you have so many flavors is any company that's looking, any company that has like a product, let's say Doritos, right? And there's a bunch of other snacks out there that you can go for, right? How do they make sure that you buy Doritos?
+
+[35:34] Well, they can put eight billion different flavors of Doritos in there so that just more of the stuff that you see is Dorito, right? And plus you already like Doritos. And so if you see some other snack that you don't know, and then Doritos, which you're apt to like anyway, you look at and you're like, oh, Zeffy cheese, that's a new Dorito. I would try that. See what I mean?
+
+[35:54] Yeah. Yeah. And so like that's like over the past, you know, I don't know how many years, like, like that's one of the big that's why you see like eight billion different new Oreos out there, too. It's because like, you know, they're they're they're leveraging on the Dorito name, creating all these line extensions to just kind of like, you know, increase the Dorito profile across the board. Doesn't mean that they don't love the original Dorito.
+
+[36:15] You know what I mean? Yep. Anyway. Uh back to Nick's question. Um I adapted the ingredient list to what I had available at home, mixed it in a spice grinder, and got something that tasted pretty good, but not much like Doritos.
+
+[36:30] I used nutritional yeast, cheap and provides a cheesy, cheese, cheese ish flavor, salt, onion powder, and uh garlic powder, which by the way, I detest onion powder and garlic powder. I know that people like it. I hate it. Stas, what do you think about it? I don't like it at all.
+
+[36:45] Jack, your feelings on onion powder, garlic powder. No, not a fan. Yeah, do you think that's a good one? I never like garlic powder on cheese. We might have had this discussion on the radio before, but I don't mind it in like that the fl the kind of like burnt flavor that like garlic bagels have.
+
+[36:57] But I don't even like garlic bagels, but I like that flavor in an everything bagel. Like that's the only time I like that flavor is its presence in an everything bagel. I used to put it on pizza garlic powder when I was younger. Yeah, but like like not like last week. We're talking like a billion years ago, right?
+
+[37:11] A million years ago. Before I knew anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[37:16] Uh uh, how much how much would I uh like next week when we're back, uh when I'm but we're all together at the at the show, should I bring a thing of garlic powder in and start sprinkling it over the pizza and see what they say, Robert's? I dare you. That'll be sweet, right? Or what's worse, like garlic salt. I'll bring garlic salt a big container of garlic salt, and I'll start shaking that stuff on the thing, I'll be like, what, what?
+
+[37:37] Um just put it on all the tables at Roberta's and see how the management responds. Holy shit. Just don't say anything about it. Just like as you walk past, just like put it down. A little bit.
+
+[37:50] Eh, minimal. Could we well? Is Indy Jesus still work there? No. No, he's gone.
+
+[37:56] No, he can't straighten it out with us then. He could just his benevolence would fix everything. Anyways, uh use nutritional yeast, salt, onion powder, garlic powder. I only recently got some MSG and citric acid, which is uh one of the reasons also why the yeast stuff is in there, because it's uh any sort of protein breakdown powder to get that kind of umami crap in there. And citric acid, uh and I'm curious to see how adding those will get me closer to the right flavor.
+
+[38:20] Um then he included my issues. The spice mix does not adhere to the popcorn well if it is added after cooking. Uh yes, this is true. A lot of the spice mix just falls to the bottom of the bowl. When I'm only using finely ground salt, I add it to the pot with the kernels and it sticks great.
+
+[38:33] If I do this with other spices, they just burn. Yes, because spices burn where salt doesn't. What can I do to get a nice coat of seasoning on the popcorn? I got an answer for you on that one, Nick. That's not a problem.
+
+[38:42] And do you think it's realistic to get close to a commercial flavor without a bunch of industrial ingredients? And close, or you can make a good flavor. Uh FYI, I pop my kernels in a pot with coconut oil on an electric range. He then sends me the Zefdy cheese details. Here is the list of ingredients.
+
+[38:58] Corn maltodextrin, which is just a uh bulking edge. So we're talking about the powder and how you this is the seasoning ingredient list. So uh maltodextrin, whey powder, salt, MSG, onion powder, sugar, cheddar uh and parmesan cheeses, corn syrup solids, natural and artificial flavors, carler, garlic powder, citric acid, sodium caseinate, autilized yeast extract, disodium uh uh I sinus I can't pronounce it, uh I can't pronounce it. And uh uh disodium guanolate. So, like the autilized yeast extract and the uh and all that other stuff uh is there so that they don't have to add as much MSG as as they as as they want to add.
+
+[39:36] That stuff's creating that kind of stuff. The cheese flavors from the sodium caseinate, the whey powder, uh, the parmesan cheese and the cheddar. So you can just jack the actual cheese powders that you have in it instead of doing that, uh probably to similar effect. The maltodextrin is in there to bulk up the spice powder so that uh so that it's you know kind of bulked better. Um the onion, the sugar, uh, the corn syrup solids, maybe that's there for water handling, but I don't think so, and the natural artificial flavors, which is where you can put the spices in, right?
+
+[40:08] And the citric acid, that's all there for the flavors that you're looking for. So you could probably mix something like that. You just gotta make sure you get the MSG, right. The secret that you don't have is that what they do, and this is what's gonna blow your mind, what they do is they mix that spice mix into an oil mixture, and then spray that oil mixture onto the Doritos. And that's how you do it.
+
+[40:29] And that's how you do it on popcorn too. So the reason that movie theater popcorn is so incredibly caloric, right? Is that you um is that they pop it and then they spray or pump the butter mixture on top of it that has that flavor, right? So they're adding a bunch of extra oil. And you're gonna have to do the same.
+
+[40:50] You don't have to add that much oil, but what you do is you mix the spice into a slurry, right, so that it's like, you know, not a paste. It has to be runny enough to coat. Then you can stick the uh you can stick the popcorn that want it to be hot and you want the oil to be hot, but not burning like it's gonna burn the spices, and then like swirl it over and then put it between two bowls and shake the hell out of it so that it coats all around. Look and see if you have enough, you can add some more and do it. You you can actually, if you have a tumbler, you can spray it in uh you can spray it in while it's tumbling, is the best way to do it, but very few people uh very few people uh can do that.
+
+[41:25] Let me see what you said, how you pop it again. Um you pop it on an electric range. Yeah, so if you have a whirly pop, you might be able to turn the popcorn machine off and spin it a little bit, but I don't know how much you're really gonna need to get a lot of good agitation. But the secret is oil slurry. Yeah?
+
+[41:39] What do you think, Stas? Good. Good job. All right. Paul Yee writes in, hey Dave and Nastasha, no love for Jack.
+
+[41:45] Uh I've been making my own almond nut milk for a few months and have recently noticed that the milk will separate a lot when I add kosher salt, separate a little bit when I omit salt, and stay together when I add Celtic gray salt. Uh my suspicion is this is because the kosher salt is acidic while the gray salt is more basic. Do you have any guess why this might happen? Paul Yee. I have a guess, but I don't have an answer.
+
+[42:04] Uh I was trying to do some research, I didn't have time uh to do the research on it, but I can try to look for it next time. I think the issue here is that you have uh the almond milk might be, the almond milk might be um susceptible to certain uh to certain ions and not to others. So kosher salt is exclusively pretty much uh sodium chloride, NACL. Uh whereas uh keltic gray salt is probably has a lot more of the other impurities that are present in seawater, like magnesium uh or calcium. And it's these kind of divalent uh, these kind of divalent ions that can sometimes do things like clot tofu and other things like this.
+
+[42:49] And so I don't know, because I haven't done a test to see whether almond milk is sensitive to uh divalent uh positive ions, but that is my guess. Uh but I was going to do some research on almond milk, but I didn't get a chance. But do some research on that, poke it around. I'm pretty sure that's the I'm pretty sure that's the answer, but I don't know. Pretty sure though.
+
+[43:08] Uh Steve from Miami writes in Hey Nastasha, Dave, and Jack. I was wondering if Dave could dive into a few tortilla nixtimalization questions. So for those of you who don't remember, nixtimalization is the process by which you uh boil and soak uh grain, typically corn, uh, in a an alkaline mixture, typically made of calcium hydroxide, uh, and then uh you let that soak for a while. It does a number of awesome things like break down the sea coat, make it easier to grind, partially uh cook some of the starch out so that it uh it forms a coherent dough and turns the outside seed coat of the corn uh into like a hydrocolloid mass that helps to bind masa into the awesome stuff that we know as tortillas. It's the reason why tortillas are tortillas and not just cornmeal pancakes.
+
+[43:52] Um, uh, could you recommend a good source of corn readily available in the U.S.? I came across www.rovseed.com. Stas, isn't that the one we use? Didn't we use RoVy? Stas.
+
+[44:09] Uh-oh. You guys there? Stas. Stas lost the line. Yeah, Stas's phone got disconnected.
+
+[44:19] I think Rovi is the one that we used, and then Rove was recommended to us by the Torteria Nixtamal, which is the tortilla, the only one for a while that was doing it here in New York, was doing the their own niximalization. So I think those are the guys that we use. The problem is that it costs almost as much to buy from, to ship this 50 pound sack as it does to, you know, if you're only doing it a little bit, as it does to just uh uh the corn. In fact, the shipping was more than the corn. Um so I think you know, any local, unless you're going to buy 50 pound sacks, in which case, yeah, go to them.
+
+[44:53] But um, you know, I know that um uh Danny Danny Bowen said he was using Anton Mills, but that stuff's super pricey. But if you're interested in kind of super pricey heirloom corns, that's another place you might want to go. And then uh do you have any experience with the anixtomatic grinder mill or any other equivalent to grind mill fresh Nixtamal into Massa? No, I wish I did. That the Nixamatic is the one that the um oh my god, then his name just went out of my head.
+
+[45:18] The guy from the uh the famous bean place in California. Anyways, uh Rancho Rancho Gordo Beans, he has one. He says they're awesome, and you can get them in Mexico, but as far as I know, they're not available here. You looked awesome. But no, I've only ever used the Corona.
+
+[45:31] I've used Matate Manos. That was a pain in the ass. I'd not recommend doing that, which is the traditional way to do it. I've used uh food processor. Again, not recommended.
+
+[45:41] The reason is is that you have to add too much liquid to it to get it to grind properly that way. And I've used the Corona hand uh mill, which is made in Colombia but is used for this sort of stuff, and it works, but it's a pain. Yes. Um it's just really a pain to do. So uh but everyone who I know that's using Extomatics says it's awesome.
+
+[46:02] And then the next question, how long would fresh masa last in the fridge, vacuum sealed or not? I think fresh masa oh here look here's the and then I'll just rant round out of the stuff. Could you freeze fresh made tortillas without a huge loss on quality, or are there some best practices to hold uh fresh tortillas? PS can't wait for the cereal to arrive. Thank you and cheers.
+
+[46:18] Uh Steve. All right. Let's I'll handle all those those last two questions at once. Here's the thing. Once you make a tort once you make masa, I think the masa I think it's better to hold masa than it is to hold tortillas.
+
+[46:31] Uh once you uh take a tortilla and heat it and then it kind of cool and you you know you cook it, you do it to initial cook. I don't think it's ever the same again, ever. I think it's kinda like, you know, it's kinda like, you know, when you go and they make crepes and then they reheat the crepes and they're not quite as good as when they made them fresh. I think it's much more so with a tortilla. I think a tortilla really wants to be eaten right after it's made.
+
+[46:55] You know, maybe reheat it a little bit like it was made a couple of minutes ago or like you know, an hour ago, but I think a tortilla is like on a downward spiral right after it's made. Massa, on the other hand, I think uh can hold a day in the fridge better than a tortilla can. So if you're going to hold one, I would hold masa. Um so I mean that's just that's just my feeling. Here here here's my level, here's my level, my quality levels.
+
+[47:20] I would say I would take a so maseka is the is the flour that you use when you're not making your own masa, it's like the it's like you know, instant masa basically. Uh I would say the height of the tortilla is a nicely made fresh masa uh tortilla fresh. Then the next level down from that is m masa that was made yesterday, made into a tort, and maybe even frozen. I don't know if masa will freeze. I've never tried it.
+
+[47:46] Massa was made into a tortilla uh mate masa that was made yesterday, made into a tortilla today, fresh, bing. Then I would say the next down on the list, farther much farther down the list would be maseca tortilla made today. Then after that would be uh y yesterday's fresh masa tortilla, and then further down from that, uh yesterday's maseca tortilla. But that's pretty much how it goes. That makes sense, Jack.
+
+[48:12] Yeah. Stad, you're back. Oh, did you say something? I was looking at my email. Yeah, sorry.
+
+[48:18] Yeah, it's just like the real life. Yeah, I was asking you questions about where we got our corn from. That was literally when I pulled the phone away from my head and looked at the email that just came in. That's so funny. Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious.
+
+[48:29] Uh do you remember was it Roe v seed? I think it was. Uh yeah, it was. Yeah. Blue stuff or whatever.
+
+[48:35] Yeah, the blue stuff, yeah. Yeah. Drew writes in, great show, makes my commute every day. Uh I recently got a couple of vacuum pumps and a microcentrifuge at a state university surplus sale. Both of the vacuum pumps came from the food science department.
+
+[48:46] Uh would you say where? Just said State University, doesn't say what state. Um, and is it precision scientific Vac Tor Direct Drive 100, uh, which you purchased for 40 dollars. I can't seem to find much about this model at all. Well, I found a little bit of something, uh, Drew.
+
+[49:01] And that sucker, the only thing I was able to find on that model is that it is uh I have a picture of some sort of like 1970s looking woman holding it up in some sort of like super, it's really weird styles. You would groove on this lady's outfit. It's like long johns with like uh haltered top lawn john over the long long johns. I love long dogs. I know.
+
+[49:23] If you're like freaking Long John Silver, just for you to buy Stas something for like a gift, Long Johns. Um and it looks to be a vacuum pump, uh as you know, uh, that an oil vein guy uh oh, by the way, just so you guys know, um the questions that we're gonna be using what he bought another pump too. Would either of these pumps be worth trying to use for DIY rotor rotary evaporator, chamber vac or the like. Uh that guy looks uh good for uh that guy looks good for a rotor vap, no problem. Uh I don't know if it's gonna be good for a chamber vac because I don't think it'll evacuate fast enough, but you just gotta make sure that it's still uh in good working order because it it but it's definitely strong enough.
+
+[50:05] And the other pump you had was a Fisher Scientific Maxima D8A, similarly a rotary vein oil-based vacuum pump. Just make sure that if uh you know that it works right. Uh both of those pumps work fine. The uh Fisher Scientific one only does seven cubic feet per minute, which is similar to the refrigeration vacuum pumps that I buy on eBay when I'm doing my DIY stuff. Uh and you can do a chamber vacuum machine with them, but they're not as nearly as fast and as powerful as the big ones.
+
+[50:35] But they will work. Uh but you just need to make sure that you keep them clean. Um but anyway, so yes, they those would be useful for those things. Uh remember Daniel at Harvard Stas? Mm-hmm.
+
+[50:45] Yeah. He said that you the one thing you don't want to do uh is run those things for a long, long time unless you have an oil filter on them because they uh they can uh heat up and uh put out silicone uh oil mist, which he says is not so good to breathe. I don't know if that's true or not, but I kinda tend to trust Daniel. Uh Drew also writes, I've got an Eppendorf, I also got an Eppendorf 5412 micro centrifuge, five bucks from the nineteen seventies. No lid, but a chunk of no lid.
+
+[51:14] That's the story of our life, right, Stas? Uh but a chu but uh by the way, did our centrifuge ever get working or no? Um I have a they use the one upstairs. I think the downstairs one is is done. Yeah.
+
+[51:25] It's not done. They just don't know how to fix one of the centrifuges at the bar is acting up. But uh we need to get that fixed. The one downstairs is better. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[51:32] No lid, but a chunk of acrylic seems to be doing the trick. It works, but it looks like it only has twelve by one point five millimeter milliliter capacity, i.e., not very much. That's uh what's twelve times one, eighteen mils total. So is it worth using for culinary applications? In other words, should I invest the ten dollars for tubes or just put it up on eBay for sale?
+
+[51:49] Thanks, Drew. Well, it's not really useful, no. Except if you want to experiment with it, you don't have another centrifuge lying around. If you were gonna experiment with something like that, what it'd be useful for is doing some um I forget the name of it. It's called like centrivap or something like this, and what you do is you hook up one of your vacuum pumps to the trunk you put a seal.
+
+[52:06] I looked at this centrifuge online, and it's small enough that I bet you it's crush proof under a vacuum. So if you just put a little seal on your chunk of acrylic and a vacuum tube to it, you could suck a vacuum. And the idea is is that liquids in the tubes won't boil out of the tubes because they're under centrifugal force, which will pop the bubbles as they're formed when you're boiling. And so you can do relatively rapid uh evaporation, and so you could probably uh low t low temp evaporate uh products in it pretty well. So you might want to try it for a centrivap application.
+
+[52:35] Uh but for actual centrifuging, nah, that sucker's too small to be useful. Uh okay, and we got one last question. We got time styles or no? Yeah, we have two minutes. Uh yeah, we gotta wrap it up, guys.
+
+[52:44] All right, there's a long question in two minutes. Chris, you asked some question about like uh I'll have to get back to Chris's question uh next time. Uh he had a question about um making uh you like baccalau stuff? No, I just I talked to Mark about it this morning. I said that sounds gross, and he said that sounds delicious.
+
+[53:05] So you don't yeah, well, first of all, like what bacalau foam, uh the whole thing sounded gross to me. Well, do you like brandad? I don't even know what that is. Brandad is like baccala and and potatoes and like cream. It's like a French thing.
+
+[53:21] It's delicious, brand, but it's not foamed usually. Chris had a question on baccalaura foam. He wants to do a baccalaura foam. Well, we'll deal with we'll deal with it next time. But uh anything, anything else?
+
+[53:31] Anything else going on before we head out, guys? Uh no, but I'll call you after. All right, so Chris, I'm sorry, I'll get to your question next time. I'm trying to stabilize your your uh your kind of brand foam there. Uh good to be back.
+
+[53:44] Be with you next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[54:05] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere.
+
+[0:27] Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first step father. Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone.
+
+[0:41] Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com.
+
+[1:00] Today's show is brought to you by Searsucker Brooklyn. For more information, visit Searsucker Brooklyn.com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:25] Cooking issues. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to the live from Roberta's Pizzery in Bushwig Brooklyn Finally back in Bushwick. How you doing, Stas?
+
+[2:07] Good. Yeah, Stas back in the studio. It's been about it's been a full month since we've been uh live in the studio. Jack, uh, how you doing over there? Yeah, I've been lonely, let me tell you.
+
+[2:15] Oh, now you're just making me feel good. You know how sad it was to do cooking issues just with you and Stas on the phone? Well, uh see no what else I heard, like we used up all of the uh all of the phone lines. Someone tried to call in. I heard later that someone tried to call in and they couldn't because of the whole, you know, we were just sucking up the phone.
+
+[2:34] Hogging up the phone bandwidth. Just sucking that crap up. All right. Well, listen. Uh so we also have with us in the studio today, Moses.
+
+[2:42] What's your last name, Moses? Moses Jarena. Moses what? Moses Jarena. Jarena?
+
+[2:47] Here, I'll get yourself a mic, Blossom. So no one gets to hang out here without me pestering them. So what is it that what is it that you do here at the Heritage Radio? I just take care of the social media stuff. Yeah?
+
+[2:57] Yeah. Yeah, so you like what does that what does that mean? Well, like live tweeting during the shows, taking pictures, you know, general PR stuff. Yeah. I saw well and you're you're on the at Heritage Radio?
+
+[3:07] Yeah. All right, so listen. Let's say you have a job. I don't know, but you're listening to this on earphones or something. Why don't you instead of live tweeting your questions in, you can tweet a question to Moses at at Heritage Radio.
+
+[3:19] What's a what's our full handle there? At Heritage Radio? Heritage underscore radio. At heritage underscore radio. You tweet that in, and that's as good as calling, because I don't know, maybe you can't call.
+
+[3:28] Maybe you're somewhere where you can't call, but you want to tweet in a question. You can live tweet in a question, and Moses will read it uh to me on the air, and then we'll uh we'll go from there. Or you can call in your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Uh so how you been, Stas?
+
+[3:43] Good. Yeah? Anything anything good or bad happening? Nope. Nothing?
+
+[3:46] Nope. Nothing? All right. How about you? Well Yeah, what happened to you?
+
+[3:50] Uh okay, so I've been gone for a number of reasons, but the reason we weren't in the studio last week is I was recovering from a minor minor bout of this surgery. It all happens to us as we uh as we get older. Uh but the good thing about well, the bad thing about the recovering from uh this particular surgery is that uh I was kind of laid up for a number of days and I couldn't really do anything. And I, you know, you're you know how like your mind is kind of scrambled when you're recovering, so it's not like I could do real work. But what I could do is watch Netflix.
+
+[4:16] And so uh what what I ended up watching, Columbo. I watched like an insane amount of Columbo, and there's there's an insane amount of Columbo actually on on Netflix for you to watch. Stas, you ever watch Columbo? No. No?
+
+[4:27] It's in LA. Do you Rockford Files? No. Do you watch any of the LA based? Do you care about anything?
+
+[4:32] Like what did you what LA Stas, by the way, from the LA area. So this is like not what what LA based TV shows did you watch, if any? Uh Melrose Place. I never watched that kind of crap. Columbo, Columbo's amazing.
+
+[4:45] Jack, Columbo? No, sorry. Jesus. Moses? Wasn't that during like the 40s or something?
+
+[4:50] The 40s! The 40s! I have heard of it though. Oh my god. First of all, okay, for those of you out there, it's a little bit slower than modern kind of mystery things because you know, back then people could they had what what do they call that thing?
+
+[5:04] Attention span. People had attention spans back in the uh 70s. But uh Columbo is like the greatest character ever by one of my favorite actors of all time, Peter Falk, sadly dead. Uh, but Peter Falk, you glass eye. I love any actor with a glass eye.
+
+[5:19] Stuz, you know I love a glass eye. Love a glass eye. Anywho, Peter Falk has a glass eye, and by the way, he used to he like, he was hilarious with it. He got his glass eye when he was a kid. I think it was an accident, and one of the things he used to do was uh he would play baseball, and like if he didn't like the call, he would literally pop his glass eye out and hand it to the ump.
+
+[5:34] How sweet is that? It's so sweet. Anyway, uh, so Columbo, what's awesome about it is Columbo is like a study in 1970s kind of class warfare. So Columbo is this detective who's like, he's wrong, he's rumpled, he's got the he's got the coat on, he drives a really crappy Peugeot that like no one else drives. It's like all beat up and mangled, and he never and he has a really crappy dog that won't do anything that he says.
+
+[5:58] Uh and so he has this kind of real rumpled mess thing going on, and all of the murderers that Columbo deals with are kind of rich, either rich, really rich, really smart, really snooty, some combination of like upper crust, and he sits there and kind of systematically takes them down with his like insane like logic. He's like the detective version of a Socrates, who's also an ugly man, by the way, Socrates. Ugly man and kind of you know, like kind of weird look weird. Anyway, so Columbo, amazing show, amazing, but uh there's kind of there's one that I really want to focus on, the reason I'm bringing it up on cooking issues, uh, because otherwise why would I be talking about Columbo, right? Is uh in season seven, I made it all the way through seven seasons.
+
+[6:38] Season seven, which is the last one on Netflix, 1978, there's an episode called Murder Under Glass. Now, if you're a cook, you got to watch Murder. Well, if you're a cook who cares about like old-style, uh old-style cooking, you have to watch Murder Under Glass. My pri like, you have yeah, do we have have we talked about Who's Killing the Great Chefs of Europe? No.
+
+[6:57] All right, who's killing anyone seen Who's Killing the Great Chefs of Europe? No. Another great 70. That's a movie, a great movie from the 70s, where uh the shtick is that this guy, I'm not gonna ruin it for you about why, but like all of these the great chefs of Europe, duh, are getting murdered. But here's the awesome part.
+
+[7:14] They're getting murdered uh using the techniques that uh that are used to make their signature dishes, right? So I'll give you I'll give you one of the signature dishes, pressed duck. I'll leave it there, pressed duck. Uh I'll give you another one. Ice cream bomb.
+
+[7:29] Great, great, great. Anyway, but like, so that's one of my favorite movies for like seeing uh a particular style of food manufactured that you don't necessarily get to see anymore because they're putting it in in movie format. Now, the common movies that we look at to to see kind of crazy over the top food stuff would be what? Like Le Grand Beauf, which has uh my man Marcel Mastriani, where they're all eating each each other to death, they eat to they eat themselves to death. But it's not really I mean, it's not so interesting from a gastronomic standpoint, like what they're what they're what they're eating necessarily.
+
+[7:58] The Bad Bats Feast, obviously, classic Cook Thief Wife Lover, but I'm not so into seeing someone like you know, uh the Peter Eaters, which is I guess how you describe the end of that movie. You've seen Cook Thief Wife Lover, right? Do you like that movie? I don't remember it well. You don't remember how can you not remember you seen this thing, Moses?
+
+[8:12] No, I have Jack? Sorry, we were striking out too. Anywho. We don't have a lot of time. Oh, oh yeah.
+
+[8:19] Oh, don't have a lot of time. You didn't have a lot of time when you were when you were 12 with to watch a movie. I mean, what the hell are you talking about? I didn't have a lot of time the entire time I've been alive. Give me that crap.
+
+[8:28] That's okay. I don't have I hate that crap. That's such New York crap. I don't have the time to go watch a movie. This movie's been out since before you were freaking born, Stas.
+
+[8:37] You had all of your freaking life to watch it. I choose not to watch. All right, you choose not to watch it. Not that I don't have time. I choose not to watch it.
+
+[8:44] That's much more reasonable. Anyway. The awesome thing about this Columbo. Oh, I watched Melrose Place. I have the time for freaking Melrose Place.
+
+[8:52] Not time for freaking, you know, like uh like whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. But the uh Melrose Place, really time worthy pursuit right there. Anyways. If anybody wants to sponsor a viewing party, we can maybe facilitate this. I would love to do that.
+
+[9:05] You know, uh, like I was going to I have to do this thing in Toronto Film Festival, uh, where the movie that I'm a food-based movie, and like all the good ones that like Willy Wonka, which is like one of my all-time, or Charlie Chuck, I can never remember the not the depth one, the other one, although I love depth. Like uh the Gene Wilder, which you've seen that one, right? Yeah, definitely, yeah. One of God's great movies. That's an amazing movie.
+
+[9:27] Life-changing movie. Chocolate, dwarfs, amazing. Uh has everything. Yeah, everything, everything you can want. It has.
+
+[9:33] It has like kids turning into blueberries. I mean, it's classic, you know. Uh it's got Gene. I know you love Gene Wilder styles. She's shaking her head up and down.
+
+[9:40] She's giving the happy stars face, which is rarely seen, but Gene Wilder, I mean, come on now. Gene Wilder? I mean, Gene Wilder. Anyway. So uh that was taken.
+
+[9:47] I got stuck with Soylent Green, which I like Charlton Heston, right? But I mean, I don't know, Soylent Green. You seen that movie? It's made of people. You familiar with the It's Made of People line?
+
+[9:55] You've seen Saturday Night Live. No, yes, I I I'm familiar with that line. All right, yeah, it's made of yes, because Soil and Green, the the I don't know why I'm getting into this. But Soil Green is like the idea is that everyone's eating this food and it's made it's made of people, and uh so they're crushing people up in this kind of futuristic thing and then turning them into food to feed other people. Hello, it's called perpetual motion machine that can't work, that can't work.
+
+[10:15] It's like Ponzi, it's pyramid scheme. You can't crush people to feed people because like you know, it all of like almost right away you would run out of people. Think of how much food you eat every day, you know what I mean, over the course of a year. I mean, like it's unsustainable, even a couple of years. What?
+
+[10:30] He said it wouldn't work. Wouldn't work. Not even for a couple of years, it wouldn't work. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, as a supplement, maybe, right?
+
+[10:36] I mean, as a don't waste, as is, you know, as a as a you know, as a don't waste the the meat policy, maybe, but not as an actual, like, you know, regular staple component of your diet. It doesn't make sense. That's like when you see gerbils and you have too many gerbils in a cage and they start eating each other, no one makes it out alive. It's not a situation where you know it's like, oh, you know, I'll I'll eat you will all ten of us will eat one gerbil today and then tomorrow we'll quit. No, it doesn't work that way.
+
+[10:59] Anyway, back to Colombo. So in this murder under glass, the the the murderer is a restaurant critic in San Francisco in LA, I guess, uh, in the um in the 70s, in the late 70s, 1978. And Columbo is like uh because he's solving the murder of one of the great chefs uh of the of the community there, all the other chefs feed him amazing food, and the entire episode is one amazing long kind of food porn from the 70s, and it's kind of food that you don't see uh, you know, nowadays for the for the most part. And uh what's really awesome about it was is just like the breadth of crazy stuff. For instance, they had fugu in it.
+
+[11:39] Now who was thinking of Fugu back? You know, Fugu's the poison puffer fish from uh from uh you know in Japanese food. And who the hell in the 70s in the US was thinking about fugu? Uh puffer fish? But not only did they talk about it, not only did they have a puffer fish there, but uh they served a full-on uh fugu course at uh at this dinner that they had, and it was done right.
+
+[11:59] I don't know if you have you guys ever seen a plate of fugu? I've seen it on the Simpsons, actually. And did they do it right? It's like they look like feathers almost like the fugu. So puffer fish is kind of stretchy, right?
+
+[12:09] And so they sli slice it thin and it's almost like these kind of like feathered out, it's like on a on like a large kind of circular plate, and it's feathered out in almost like a like a like a like a dahlia kind of effect or like a peacock kind of effect where like the pieces are kind of overleafed on each other and feathered up. And damn it, they did it like dead on. They did it like dead. In fact, Fugu poison was the the the poison of choice in this uh in this Colombo episode but then they they had like this amazing looking pantone they had like a bunch of foie gras stuff which back in the 70s was rare in the US like uh but then he goes to a dinner at a French restaurant and they bust out all of the sick like present presentation stuff from like some of my favorite books. So uh and this is what kind of they for instance like they do a rock lobster that's been eviscerated cooked and then the meat layered in aspect and decorated all the down the down the back of it with the pr sick presentations like salmon uh you know on I speak with truffles like all like all the old school all the old school stuff so you have to watch it just for that but what it made me think of is old books and uh have we done a lot of old book talking on here on the on uh some like like what what have we talked about I don't know you don't know because you're reading another book right now another old book right now if we could talk about it instead of paying attention even when Nastashi doesn't bring her computer she cannot be bothered to pay attention to what's going on in the show she's literally reading a book that I was reading on the subway on the way over here right now instead of paying attention what's going on.
+
+[13:30] We got a caller. Oh all right well we'll get back to the old books on a minute caller you're on the air hey Dave how you doing doing all right very well uh my name is Antoine just on in from Boca Tone Florida. Nice boca I I'm in fact wearing Florida uh garb right now I have on a uh linen guayaba yeah no way yeah hell yeah hell yeah I got my I got my uh my Spanish uh boss hog my El Jefe de Cerdo outfit on I have a Panama hat I was walking over here with my linen guayabera I'm all set what's up yeah, I was gonna ask actually to a previous episode you had done where you had mentioned you went to uh Boca and I just wanted to see if there's any places you ever recommended here. That's one question. The second is I always like making sushi at home, but I don't like purchasing like expensive sushi grade tuna.
+
+[14:14] And I was wondering what level of contamination you think there is if I was to go to Whole Foods and just buy their fish and make it with that. Well, I mean, I'm sure like if you see a piece of tuna that I mean, look, let me put it this way. The sushi tuna the the tuna that is used, the high-end tuna that's used out there for for sushi, it it it has as much or more mercury as anything else that you're you're gonna get, right? Because um they're all kind of unsustainably captured and um so the f the first question is is like we're talking like real tuna like blue like bluefin, the first question is whether or not you want to actually deal in the market with that because it's seriously, seriously, seriously overfished right now. But uh in terms of the mercury, like the the issue with any sort of top chain predator fish like a like a tuna is that um as long as they're eating stuff in the wild, that they're bioaccumulators.
+
+[15:08] So the the bigger they are and the older they are, the more mercury they're gonna have in them. And that's why if you see these kind of low mercury or mercury-free tuna in cans, all they're really doing is they're getting younger tuna that haven't had the time to bioaccumulate uh as much mercury. So there's that on the on the mercury contamination. Now, as far as bacterial contamination, also this shouldn't be too much of an issue with a whole muscle fish because uh bacteria is only gonna get into the inside of a fish where it's been jabbed or or poked. So now you got two remaining uh questions, and that is the quality of the fish in general, and then uh the second thing is the actual kind of taste quality.
+
+[15:46] So what happens to fish as it gets too old is that it um you know it starts oxidizing, it starts losing its textural properties. And that's where it's kind of like in terms of uh in terms of the the muscle quality, uh the actual taste, muscle quality, texture, and the kind of oxidative stress that the muscle's gone through. That's where the really expensive tuna is gonna start breaking free from the less expensive tuna, right? So, like a really, really fancy uh piece of tuna, not only is it like a high high quality muscle, but it's been treated right. For instance, like tuna that's is just destined to become sushi, they uh usually they're in uh a farm which is a misnomer, it's not really farmed.
+
+[16:26] What they do is they capture wild tuna and then they uh fatten them up in pens. Uh but they what they do is they send divers out every day to dive around in the pools, at least they used to. I haven't researched it in a couple of years. They send divers to swim around in the pools with harpoons all all day every day so that these tuna get used to seeing these human divers like going around. And then when it comes time to harvest one, actually I they use yeah, they're electric stun harpoons.
+
+[16:51] They would they would hit them with the thing, which gives them uh uh an electric jolt. The electric jolt is very finely tuned to not snap the spine, because if it snaps the spine uh or you know is too violent uh on the convulsions, you can get blood spots in the meat, and that kind of ruins uh that section of the meat in terms of its uh marketability. Then they bring the sh uh fish on board and they perform eachime where they put the needle through the spine, they do the bleed out and they put the needle through the spine. So all of those effects tend to increase the muscle quality greatly, but they also tend to increase the price. So they're only gonna do that kind of work on tuna that's destined for a high-end kind of a sushi operation.
+
+[17:25] So right away the f the texture of the flesh is gonna be a lot better in that situation. Also, when you're dealing with tuna, especially the fattier portions, which are, you know, kind of f you know, uh like underneath and forward on the tuna. Like those those pieces, uh, you want to leave them whole uh as long as possible because any time they're exposed to oxygen, they go under oxidative stress. So if you have someone in Whole Foods who's planking the stakes out like, you know, like uh, you know, the day before or something like that, then all of a sudden you get a lot more oxidation on that surface of the fish and it's not the oils aren't gonna taste as good. Not as big of a deal in like the leaner cuts of tuna, but a much bigger deal in the fattier cuts of tuna.
+
+[18:02] Is that makes sense? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you can definitely do it, but another thing to do is to just, you know, find whatever kind of like local speci like so many species of fish are actually good for uh sashimi and for sushi, but they're just you know, they're not used uh so widely because maybe they're not available in Japan. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:23] And so like y they just maybe haven't been used to uh to great effect yet because there's not a a culture of it. So, you know, I don't know what what's coming in right now in uh in Florida that's considered like you know uh good and and sustainable, but I would find something that comes in off of uh, you know, a day boat there that you know is kept like on ice the entire time and then Yeah, we we typically get grouper here, like that's a really good cut. Uh I love I love grouper, but if there's have they start are they start I love grouper, but have they started getting grouper that they actually feel is like sustainable to harvest or no? Uh well I mean like they do all wild cog here, so no, it's not quite sustainable yet. Right.
+
+[19:05] But I mean it is our freshest catch that we get here often. And what was the other one? Um, no, that was the other one I was just saying, I I usually take on a like I I'm usually more concerned about the contamination part. So like I'll often do like uh prouvi and cevicha, you know, and then put that inside of a roll instead so that I cooks it more than anything else. Right.
+
+[19:28] I mean uh look, you know, if you if you I would just find like a fish like a fish uh monger that you you trust, especially if you can see the whole fish. Look, if you can see the whole fish before they before they uh chop it up, I mean like you know, it's what they what they always taught me, and I I still believe it is that you know you can if you if you can look at the gills and the eyes, then you can trust a fish. You know what I'm saying? So if you yeah, so it's like c clear eyes and and bright gills. Once the gills start going, like that's when you know that you're you know you're not dealing with you're dealing with something that's been uh sitting around uh a while.
+
+[20:05] So um, you know, although I mean that that's generally what what I look for. So if you if you have the ability to check out the gills and the and the and the eyes, you know, then uh you know, and obviously see whether or not you you could tell also, like I see a lot of fish that uh even though it's fresh, it got the hell beat out of it on the boat. You know what I mean? And so you can see that the body is like mangled and like you can see like like damage from like literal impact damage on the sides of the fish. And you know, uh the that fish will be fresh, but it won't necessarily the muscle in that area won't necessarily be as good, and it's also indicative of other stress the fish probably went through during uh catch and slaughter that might lead to uh deterioration of qualities.
+
+[20:48] Is that make sense? Yeah, for sure. So that's that was excellent. I also was wondering if you recommend any places to eat when you're in bulk or the South Florida region. You know, uh we didn't I didn't really uh eat out much.
+
+[21:01] I was uh I I last time I was there I did a dinner with um or like an event with Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog, who's awesome. Uh so you know, obviously I I like I like him. Uh but we we spent most of I spent most of my time uh just eating as much kind of rare fruit as is humanly possible. And so, you know, down in South Dade I was going to um I mean the fruit and spice park, which I think is amazing. And then also trying to go to the fair child to eat as much of the mango stuff that they had a as they had uh possible.
+
+[21:31] And you know, I even went to uh what's that place called Stars Roberts? Remember that fruit fruit stand we went to Robert's new I saw it the other day um I can't remember. Yeah, which is like it's really expensive but they have like all the cool all the cool kind of fruit down there. So like literally I was just soaking in uh fruit and then like my actual meals 'cause my family went down with me is like, you know, the my wife, like when I'm especially when my kids are there, when they're there, like I don't really go out to any kind of f fancy stuff. I go to what's easy for for the kids and then spend most of my kind of research time on uh on like the rare fruits that you can't get.
+
+[22:07] You know what I mean? Totally. Well with that being said I've I've called in before twice and you've always been very helpful and you've given me such great free knowledge. I'd love to return the favor. So I mean if there's something I I have my family in Peru, I'd love to send you other something from there or from here.
+
+[22:23] Just give me a quest, I'd love to send it. Nice whether it be beer or whatever. That's awesome. I mean someday I'll someday I'll get to go to Peru. It's like you know one of the obviously great culinary uh it's like one of the great culinary stops in the world these days and uh you know it's just I've haven't been able to go yet.
+
+[22:41] Someday I'll go. I mean apparently it's just uh you know everyone tells me that it's amazing and just getting better and better. I mean if you'll you listen to it. I would love to recommend my family just started one of the first craft breweries over there. Really?
+
+[22:55] Well, shoot shoot uh shoot me over a tweet at Cooking Issues and uh so you know, so I have your handle and we'll uh we'll stay in touch on that. Please, uh like I said, I'd love to send you something. It's the least I can do for all the knowledge you've given me and everyone else, and it's the least I could do from one food to another. Alright, well, I appreciate it, brother. Thanks so much.
+
+[23:12] You guys have a great one. Thank you. That sounds like a great idea. Alright, we'll be right back with more cooking issues. We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member, Seersucker.
+
+[23:41] Seersucker is a 40-seat neighborhood spot inspired by the food and hospitality of the South. Chef owner Robert Newton, who hails from Arkansas, has crafted a cuisine inspired equally by his childhood favorites and the Carroll Street green market across the street. He relies upon small local farms and indie purveyors for many of his ingredients. So the menu changes frequently based on what's available and in season. Searsucker's beer, wine, and spirits list is all American with an emphasis on New York State.
+
+[24:06] Learn more by visiting their website, Searsucker Brooklyn.com. To learn more about becoming a business member, email us. Info at heritage radio network.org. Hey, see, Jack, now I thought Seersucker, I was gonna like go buy some Seersucker suits, and that's why I was even more grooving on the whole boss hog thing when I was wearing like, you know, the the guy vera, because I thought we were gonna like all of a sudden we're like all gonna be dressed in seersucker suits. We could go to Searsucker dressed in seersuckers.
+
+[24:34] You want to? I think we should. I mean, my most of my Sears I have two Seersucker jackets, both of which were ruined. When you so for those of you that go to Tales of the Cocktail, which is kind of the New Orleans, like, you know, booze soaked debauched cocktail thing that you know we all have to go to every year if you're in the business. Uh like one of the things you're supposed to eventually do is wear a seersucker.
+
+[24:53] It's happened to me twice that someone has poured a freaking like staining cocktail on me during that during that event. Week. Week. So both my both my both my seersucker jackets are uh they're kind of kind of ruined. Stas won't let me wear them.
+
+[25:07] Was that the one Stas where you said I thought we agreed that you weren't going to wear that anymore? I don't remember. Remember I had one jacket that had been too stained that I really loved. And you're like, I wore it to some shoot, and Stas is like, I thought we had agreed that you would not wear that anymore. Alright.
+
+[25:24] Actually, so I was gonna get into some books. Oh, I do have one request, though. It's not Peruvian. If anyone out there, you guys familiar with the sweet gum tree? Sweetgum?
+
+[25:32] Anyone? No. Jack, where'd you grow up again? New York. Sweetgum tree, dude.
+
+[25:38] Come on. Sweet, you know sweet crum tree? Okay, it's the one that it's the one that drops the little balls that look like they came from minesweeper. I'm looking at this, yep. Yeah, okay.
+
+[25:47] It's got a leaf that looks a little bit like a maple, but not, and it drops the little minesweeper balls on the ground. Yeah, there's a lot of those sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the tree, the sweet gum tree, uh Dax loves sweet gum trees because he sucks on the uh on the leaves.
+
+[26:02] He's like, it has a taste, it has a flavor. Would you like some flavor? Have a sweet gum leaf. And he starts eating them. He doesn't really talk like that because he's a little, so he didn't you know his voice is a little more, but it's kind of like that.
+
+[26:10] You've heard Dax, he talks like that. Anyways. So the sweet gum tree, uh, which everyone knows I can't pronounce things, so in uh it's uh liqu liquid umbar uh styracophlua is the uh is the uh name of that thing. But uh you can harvest resin from the sweet gum tree that's supposed to be sweet and like good to kind of chew, but I I don't have the ability to harvest any of it because I don't have land with my own trees that I can kind of you can you kind of you know you cut away a section of the bark you let it drip and then you harvest it and it dries out I think it turns into this kind of uh sweet thing but if anyone who can hear the sound of my voice has access to some uh sweet gum resin I will gladly buy some because I'm dying to try it and uh it should have already happened by now because I think they probably do it in May uh you know March April May although who knows what the season that we've had now but it it should be similar season I would guess to when um to when maple to when maple uh flow is although I don't know because I've never made it but you know or if you have access to it you know call me and like you know call in and tell me like how you make it because I just want more information. It's one of those like weird ingredients that uh that I really just have a Jones thing to try the same that like I did with hickory nuts you know a couple years ago which I still love oh hickory nuts.
+
+[27:23] And um you know and some other like you know I've never had an actual American persimmon. You ever had one? I don't think so. The wild American persimmon I would anyone that has access I would like some I will pay for them. Another one is a I don't know if there are any but I'd love to try uh like an actual American chestnut.
+
+[27:38] You familiar with the chestnut uh the the destruction of the chestnut tree? No. Did you know that the chestnut American chestnut was favored over all other chestnuts in terms of uh in terms of uh its taste and uh the wood they it's one was one of the most common forest trees in all of uh in all of the United States and in the span of uh 30 years both the chestnut and uh the uh the elm, the American elm, which was the most common street tree in the in the United States, were wiped out due to imported diseases from um you know from uh across, you know, from either China or or Europe or some combination of China and Europe. And so the American chestnut tree is wiped out. I mean wiped, because the funk what the fungus would do is the fungus would attack the tree and then girdle it.
+
+[28:21] So like the fungus would literally like go underneath the top bark layer around to where the the growing and the and the fluid transportation was in the xylem, grow all the way around it, plug the tree up so the tree couldn't get food anymore, and then die out. Now, chestnut trees are interesting because they ground sprout a lot. So what you'd happen is is that the main tree would die, then you'd get little trees that would come up, they would survive for 10, 15 years or something like this, and then they would die, and that would happen again and again and again. So there are American chestnut trees, but now they're kind of an understory uh tree instead of a real one. But I don't know if any of those produce nuts.
+
+[28:53] So if anyone has access to an American chestnut, I will gladly pay you for it. Also, butternuts, American but it's not the season. When it comes to being nuts season, we'll talk more about the nuts. Anyway, I don't know what I was talking about. But it but if you have the liquid an bar, if you have the sweet gum, please uh let me know.
+
+[29:06] So before we uh talk about the uh books, which because who knows whether I'll have time. You know how I get, S. You know how I get. Uh why don't we get to some of the uh questions? Chris wrote in, uh I tried fitting the uh Moses, we got anything on the Twitter yet?
+
+[29:20] Man, these people. These people. Uh I tried fitting this uh query into a tweet, but could not provide enough info. So I called in, but it turns out you're on travel today, so I'll try an email. Uh I'm hosting a Scandinavian dinner and trying to channel some inner red Zeppy.
+
+[29:34] Uh I do a 10% brine for this is the one I missed last week. Remember? Yes. Uh I I do a 10% brine first for texture and to prevent protein ooze, wrap it in birch bark seats. Uh then uh uh boiled to soften and kill the nasties and the birch bark, then sous vita 50 seed for thirty minutes and makes a nice presentation when served on the unwrapped bark and adds a little earthy note.
+
+[29:53] Um and I I'm guessing it's cod. Uh because he says he wants to double down on the cod. So, anyways. Um I want to double down on the cod, so I'm gonna create a buccal cream. This is where we left off last week because turns out stas.
+
+[30:06] What is it that you hate? Warm fish food foams? Warm fish foams? What about what about like a like a seafood, like like canel of seafood mousse? Who seafood mousse like a canela seafood mousse?
+
+[30:20] Like, what could be more delicious? What about a seafood sausage? No. Holy crap. You mean if I t if I took it?
+
+[30:27] Yeah, I'd eat it. I didn't think it's a fish. No, I would eat it because I don't wouldn't want to hear it from you, but I wouldn't like it. You've had it before. Yeah, you don't like it.
+
+[30:35] Yeah, yeah. I don't like it. Like a poached fish mousse. Yes. What does Mark say about you not liking poached fish mousse?
+
+[30:41] How is it that you don't like it? What is he doing? Seriously, what is it you don't like about it? I don't like cooked fish very much. And I don't like it whipped, and I don't like it hot.
+
+[30:52] Uh-huh. You don't like cooked fish very much. But you like cooked fish as an ingredient like anchovies. Mm-hmm. Alright.
+
+[30:59] Well, so salt cod, can you think of salt cod as more of an ingredient? Yeah, I guess so. So have you had the fritters, the bacalaitos, fritters? I haven't had those. It's like salt cod dumplings that are fried.
+
+[31:11] It's good. Real good. Stuff delicious. So you might be willing to try that because the fish is more of an ingredient and less of a main thing. So you might also be okay then with like a brandad, where the salt cod is like mixed into wait.
+
+[31:26] You're not like my son Booker and you don't like mashed potatoes, are you? I do, I do. For real? I like mashed potatoes. Okay.
+
+[31:32] So you might also be okay with like a brand where the salt cod is mixed into the mashed potatoes, but it's not about being fish. It's about being like an ingredient. Mm-hmm. Alright, so now we're getting a little more reasonable here. Now, a fish mousse, you're feeling that it's gonna be too much like a cooked fish.
+
+[31:48] Yeah. But you've had it before. Yeah. Alright, so we'll we'll we'll I'll I'll leave it there. How the hell did it even come up?
+
+[31:55] How do you how does that come up that you don't like cooked fish? What about what about fish sticks? No. Wait, you don't like fish sticks? No.
+
+[32:02] Did you ever like fish sticks? Yeah, as a kid. And then what made you stop? At what point? They're gross.
+
+[32:07] They're they're they're not gross. You can make them gross. There can be gross fish sticks, but like fried, uh delicious fried battered fish done well is like a revelation. It's one of God's great foodstuffs, battered fried fish. I mean, Moses, Jack?
+
+[32:23] Yeah, we're just saying in here there's not much better than like fried fish. It's pretty easy. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's damn simple. I'm not talking like, yeah, yeah, maybe you don't like fried tilapia because tilapia is garbage, it's swimming garbage. You know, or maybe you know, you've had like a bad fried catfish that tastes like dirt.
+
+[32:39] I can't tell, but like uh like a well-done, like battered and fried, I don't know, pick your white fish, like you know, like uh like you know, cod or place from this no? No. Because you think it's des class? No. But you used to like it when you were a kid.
+
+[32:55] Yeah, I just don't like fried fish. Oh, Jesus. Alright, okay. Back to the question. The show's over.
+
+[33:02] Yeah, it's like I'm just too depressed to go on. I'm too I'm too depressed to continue the show. I mean, I don't even understand that. Like, how do you think? Erica Wides is in here and she doesn't really like any kind of product like that, but she even likes fried fish.
+
+[33:14] Of course. I mean, everybody. And fish sticks, too. Yeah, because f all they are is a not quite as good version of a fried fish, right? So you can knock it on a quality basis, but not conceptually.
+
+[33:24] Do you know what I'm saying? But look, what I don't understand is how do you grow up liking something and then all of a sudden not like it anymore? Like did a fried fish beat the crap out of your boyfriend at prom? What the hell happened? You know what I mean?
+
+[33:37] It's like, how do you stop liking fried fish? It's not that she's a vegetarian, my friends, because that would I I could say, okay, she just gave up fish altogether. But this lady pounds sushi and crude o like like she could take the whole freaking ocean down if she wanted to. So it's not a question of that. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:54] I don't get it. Back to the question. I want to double down on the cod. So create a bacalau cream, 250 mils of heavy cream, 250 grams salt cod, rehydrated and chopped, 250 grams rrrissit potatoes, cooked, blend in Vitamix and strain well. Uh you better strain well if you're gonna put it through an EC because uh anything can clog an EC, even like little like you know, too much vanilla seeds can you know, if you get it clumped can clog an easy.
+
+[34:18] For service, I want hot whipped cream texture from this, so I strain into an EC and charge with N2O. I hold it at 50 degrees Celsius or 70, no change in texture. It comes out well enough and attractive foam, somewhere between shaving foam. I like that word. You like that word, Sas?
+
+[34:31] Shaving foam. Shaving foam. Shaving foam and whipped cream. Uh likes it when I put a bunch of H's in them. Whi whipped uh whipped cream, but rather quickly defades into an uninspiring blob.
+
+[34:43] Stas hates blobs, right? What do you hate more? An uninspiring blob or a leaf fungus? Oh god, you know. Uh leaf fungus.
+
+[34:50] Uh if I dispense from the EC at cool room temperature, it holds its shape well. So the heat is causing the foam matrix to destabilize and collapse. Any suggestions how to stabilize this? I expect gelatin will be too soft at 50 to 70. How about agar agar?
+
+[35:03] I've also got Xanthan, but that's the extent of any of my monitor's pantry. Thanks, Chris. Either one will work. If you're gonna do the agar, what I recommend you do is you make a fluid gel of the agar just a little bit in water, do a one percent fluid gel in water and uh dope that in. You're only going to need a little bit to stabilize what what you're doing, uh, most likely.
+
+[35:20] Or if you want, you can make an agar fluid gel with the whip with the cream itself, but don't make it too stiff in that case. You want it like kind of a l like a lighter fluid gel somewhere in the in the in the range of like uh oh like uh yeah seven tenths of a percent, six tenths of a percent, something like this. Yeah, not even, maybe like ha because it's already holding, right? So you only need a little bit of holding power. So I would say maybe like five grams per liter on the cream, five to seven grams per liter.
+
+[35:48] Try somewhere in there of agar agar. Uh Xanthan will also do it. You can also do a light fluid gel on the agar and then add a little Xanthan uh to it to firm it up. You just want to the here's the big issue. Whenever you're doing uh an ISI with a fluid gel, remember that uh it will hold itself in the ISI.
+
+[36:04] So first of all, whenever you do a fluid gel, blend the crap out of it in the Vita prep because it needs to be smooth. Otherwise, it's not a fluid gel, it's just a bunch of little shards of crystals that don't look good. Also, put your finger over the uh uh over the EC whip, over the dispenser on the EC whip every time you're gonna dispense. Flick down, and that'll make sure that all of the fluid gel gets slapped down to where the dispensing nozzle is so that you can dispense properly. Otherwise, kind of no love.
+
+[36:29] But either of those two things uh should work uh without without too much uh trouble because all you're looking to do is hot stabilize and and uh agar will hot stabilize easily up to 70 degrees Celsius. I wouldn't go much higher because the agar is gonna start to melt in around the 85 in the 80 range, but like if you literally are using a circulator to hold it at 70, it's gonna be no problem. So that uh should work. Yeah? Like that says?
+
+[36:53] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good answer. She doesn't care. Uh Alex in Toronto writes in, dear Dave, Nastasha, and Jack.
+
+[36:59] And now Moses. I stumbled across this video, uh, which there's a link, which you can't see because you're listening to this on the radio, but maybe we'll put it on the uh we'll put it on the thing. I stumbled across, I'll say a video, how about that? I stumbled across a video which describes making a rapid infusion sangria using a cheap uh using the cheap vacuum wine savers. Trade name VacuVan.
+
+[37:21] Uh I would assume this will never suck a vacuum powerful enough to compare with the machines you are used to, but I was wondering if you could give me some sense of how this technique could be used by an extremely frugal home cook. The video claims to create an infusion in about five minutes similar to a 24 hour infusion at atmospheric pressure. If this is true, this would be only slightly slower than E uh EC rapid infusion. Any insights, thoughts or ideas? And here is the link and this will be useless to you.
+
+[37:45] H T P H T T P colon forward forward U2 dot boo forward slash E D L P U L B M U J W. Well it turns out I watched this video and Stas, you will not believe who uh did the video. It's our boy Clifford Endo Gulliber who's awesome. I love that guy. He's like he's like our he's uh he's our giant Palauan friend.
+
+[38:08] Uh and he works now for the Food Network. So if you look up uh food network um food network like you know I don't know Vacuvan Sangria Clifford you should be able to to find this video. And Clifford uh actually was one of our interns back at the French Culinary Institute and uh even though Stas was incredibly mean to him when when he started to uh I believe Stas's exact words when when the because about like three or four people came that first day when he was there, right? And Cl Cliff like loves to, and by the way, Cliff is mentioned in the cocktail book because the Cliff old fashioned is you know was his idea to use that coriander syrup to do the old fashioned. And so he's actually in the cocktail book because we have the Cliff Old Fashion in the cocktail book.
+
+[38:50] Anyway, Stas was like uh Stas was like just like my grandma, we're letting everybody in. Literally, what you said. First of all, why are you calling really bad about what I said about saying you feel bad for Cliff or you feel bad for your grandma? Cliff. Whoa!
+
+[39:08] So like still still throwing some still throwing some slut down on your grandma. No, that wasn't it's no, no. She would like take people in and help, you know, help poor people and stuff. Oh, that wasn't the implication that you gave at the time. You gave the implication that like any guy shows up and it's community chess grandma.
+
+[39:23] That's what you that's that's the way Cliff took it. That's why Cliff was like double horrified. Oh jeez, no. Cliff was like double horrified because his first time he's meeting you, and it's like, I can't believe that this lady's dogging her grandma this way. And which I frankly couldn't believe either.
+
+[39:38] And then at the same time, like being so mean to him before, and by the way, Cliff, extremely awesome guy, like you know, artist, and like, you know. For the first like three months, we just had him move boxes. That is not the case. That is not the case. Anyways, so yes, so the uh the uh using the vacuvan as an infusion technique is a technique developed a long time ago at the French culinary, and but Clifford is using it to good effect to make a sangria, and he actually I looked at the video, he's got some uh elaborations on the technique that uh I don't know.
+
+[40:07] I I like his style because similar to like the way I I was saying things, like if he won if he see the average person like doesn't pay attention, right? Right? Obviously, like Stas is not paying attention right now. Like, literally, right now, Stas is not paying attention. That is the biggest crap.
+
+[40:23] Oh, I hate that argument that people say they can multitask. You can't multitask. That's why, like, that's why last week when on the radio, I was like, Hey, Studz, you're like, oh, I don't know, I didn't hear you because I was trying to do an email. You don't, you're not multitasking. I know that's you're null tasking.
+
+[40:35] People who multitask actually null task. They're getting nothing done. They're called called zero tasking. It's a new thing that I want people to be aware of in the world nowadays, where people try to do so many damn things that they actually do nothing. Like the fact that people are buried in their freaking phones, which I hate.
+
+[40:49] They're buried in their freaking phones. And when you're buried in your phone, right? I guarantee you that the person that you're now texting, when you're with them, you're buried in your phone texting me. It makes no damn sense. Null tasking.
+
+[41:01] Do some damn work. This is why people get frustrated with me. They hate me because uh I don't ever answer emails, I don't return telephone calls or any of this stuff. And the reason is is because when I'm with you, I'm with you. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[41:13] Anyways, it's because I'm old. It's because I'm freaking old. Uh back to Clifford. So uh so he does a sangria where he puts the uh the wine and some fruit juice and some sugar back in the wine bottle. Uh and the the trick, the whole trick when you're using the vacuvan uh to infuse things is to chop things small enough so that they can fit into the wine bottle and so you can shake them back out again.
+
+[41:34] And then he then, what I like about it is he he ba he basically beats you over the head, which I think is wise because as I said, people aren't paying attention. So he tells you to suck, suck some more, suck, suck some more, suck some more, and then you know, you know, with the vacuum. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what am I talking about?
+
+[41:49] Vacuum, sucking the wine in it. Alright, right. So, like uh sucking uh have to test her like this, like a little child, like like my 10-year-old. Uh so you're sucking out suck some more, and then he says, and when you're done sucking, suck some more, which I appreciate. This is good advice from Clifford.
+
+[42:03] But then he has this uh technique where he says to lay it on its side to infuse. Now, what you're doing there, by the way, with the vacuvan, is you're just uh it vacuuman is not very good at sucking a vacuum, like in terms of the actual absolute level of vacuum that it can suck, but the advantage that you have if you suck for minutes at a time time on it, is that you're constantly drawing air out of the fruit. In this case, he put apples into the sangria. You're constantly drawing air out the entire time you're doing it. And uh so even though you never get a very good vacuum, you're constantly removing air from the bottle, and therefore you're sucking more and more air out.
+
+[42:33] This is what's allowing the infusion to happen, is the fact that you let the air out. So then he rests it on its side. And I don't really know why. After the next time I talked to Clifford, I don't know why he tells you to rest the bottle on its side. That's kind of like the elaboration that I didn't I I hadn't thought about before.
+
+[42:46] I don't really know why he did it. We used to agitate it, shaking back and forth, but I don't know why he laid it outside. Anyways, I'm sure he's got a good reason. It has to be maybe he tested it maybe, or that's better for surface area contact ratio, something like this. Too many warning.
+
+[42:58] All right. So then he pop then he you pop it, which he didn't show. When you pop it, that's when the actual sangria stuff is getting injected in. Uh and then if you want, you can actually suck another round on it. But I guess the food network didn't want to do that because there's too much instruction, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[43:11] But anyway, yes, that is a technique you can use. No, it's not quite as good as a uh commercial vacuum machine, but it sure beats nothing. And uh it's not also quite the same as ISI, which you can use. In fact, we did a sangria uh being a vacuum machine, we didn't, but uh Mara from Booker and Dax did it at the uh NRA, not the gun version, the uh National Restaurant Association show. But I'm sure at the at the Rifle Association, they would also appreciate a vacuum-infused sangria, right?
+
+[43:36] Because what goes better with shooting guns than some sangria, right? I guess beer. I guess like your first choice is beer, but then in the summer, if you didn't want a beer, like if you'd already had a beer or you wanted something else and you were gonna shoot guns, sangria might be a nice choice. Jack, what do you think about guns and sangria? Are you for it?
+
+[43:50] I'm not a huge sangria guy. Really? Or a gun guy. Yeah. You don't like sh you're wait.
+
+[43:55] Wait. Well, after that shooting that happened this weekend, I don't really think we should talk about that. Wow. Stas. Jesus Christ.
+
+[44:02] That's a whole nother show. That's a whole nother show. That's another show. Like the fact of the matter is is that I'm not going to get into it now because now Stas is trying to make me feel bad. But we will talk about it later.
+
+[44:14] They like the fact of the matter is is that target shooting is fun. No? I've just never done it. Yeah, it sounds fun. Yeah.
+
+[44:21] Moses. Never done it. I would want to if I had a chance. Yeah. Um, but again, I hadn't even thought about that because I haven't been watching the news, so probably a bad time to talk about it.
+
+[44:32] Um, in the uh one minute I have left, uh, the books that I was talking about that the Colombo episode reminded me of were uh the modern French Culinary Art, which is a uh version of the Pella Pratt book. Pella Pratt was one of the was one of the great cookbooks. Uh he was the guy who started the Court and Blue cooking school in the 1800s, and he wrote this book, which I think came out in the 20s or 30s at the end of his career, and it's kind of one of the key kind of cookbooks. It's awesome. In fact, Jacques Popin uh listed that as one of his favorite possessions was his Pella Pratt when he was an apprentice in his book The Apprentice.
+
+[45:04] It's an amazing cookbook, fantastic. And the best edition for English speakers that I've ever seen is the one that was put out in the 70s by Virtue and Co. Uh, and I bought it back in the day at the Strand. Strand uh bookstore, you know, like like 15, 20 years ago, wasn't air conditioned, and so you walked in there and everyone was viciously mean to you. And but there also wasn't a lot, like things were really cheap.
+
+[45:25] They were like half price off the cover, and there wasn't a lot of searching about and trying to figure out the true value of a book, unless it was a real collector's book. So you could get things ridiculously cheap, ridiculously cheap. And so I was there looking for uh LaRoos Gastronomique was one of my one of the cookbooks that everyone coveted back then, or books that everyone coveted back then. So I would go to the strand and search out good editions of LaRoos, because all the editions are different. And I bought, without really knowing, Peleprat uh and this this issue this uh edition from Virtue, and it is freaking amazing.
+
+[45:53] It's got all of those pictures in it, and all those pictures were shot in the 70s, and so it's kind of this amazing window into this book that was written in the 30s, 20s and 30s, with like all of the color pictures that you get from a book that was put in the 70s, but it hadn't been mangled very much because it was not it it hadn't bent to the will of like Nouvelle Cuisine or any of the other stuff that it you know was had or was going on. So it's an amazing uh record of that time. I then saw their other books, buffets and receptions, which is oh my god, ridiculous. And some of the stuff in Colombo also in that is like uh you have to see this book from the 70s, uh, and then uh The New International Confectioner. These are the three kind of books uh from them, and they're still ridiculously cheap.
+
+[46:32] I recommend going out and buying them. And then in advance of this, I went out and bought uh just this morning because these books aren't most of these books aren't collectible yet. So they're uh still extremely cheap. They're fat, fat, fat books. And if you love looking at old, like awesome, like like continental and French books, which you should if you like anything that's kind of interesting because they're just sick records.
+
+[46:54] Meat dishes meat dishes in the international cuisine. I just bought that for two bucks, cost me 11 dollars to ship it from England. Garnishing and decoration. I don't know if that one's uh as good, but I bought it. Uh Fish and Shellfish, the complete book of meat, and the only one that's so far is collectible, Herring's Dictionary of Classical and Modern Cookery, which you can still get cheaply.
+
+[47:11] For Virtue and Go, this is Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[47:38] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This special program was brought to you by the Dairy Farm Families of Wisconsin, the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board. Did you know that today Wisconsin produces more than 600 varieties, types, and styles of American, international style, and original cheeses that win more awards than any other state or country? To learn more, visit Eat Wisconsin Cheese dot com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:29] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday from late, really late today, huh? Son of a gun.
+
+[0:53] Well, supposed to be around 12 to about uh 1245. Speaking of uh or 1250, I don't know. What what time 1250, Jack? Yep, 50. Well, we got uh 50 fifty-five.
+
+[1:02] 5055. We got uh we got our boy uh the uh fearless leader of our uh of our network, Patrick Martins, has a book coming out soon. Yeah. And he's uh he's coming in to talk about it around twelve forty or so, right? Around twelve forty.
+
+[1:15] So we'll round out the uh we'll round out the program with a little bit of discussion of the uh of Patrick's new book. So I'll do that for later. Also, uh we're being we're being brought to us by uh Wisconsin Cheese right now. Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board, yeah. Wisconsin You know, like I was thinking about if you were to actually count all the cheese heads as like a separate cheese variety, you'd have hundreds of thousands of varieties of cheese in Wisconsin.
+
+[1:36] You know what I'm saying? That's right. Yeah, sweet cheese heads. Everyone loves it. You know, I used to have a cheese head hat.
+
+[1:41] I don't know what the hell happened to it. Remember that we used to have the cheese head hat at at uh FCI? It was originally Jeremy's, who was from Wisconsin, Chef Jeremy, who then like kind of donated it to us, and then somehow I think someone stole the cheese head hat. You can't keep one around. People love the cheese head hats so much, even though they're viciously uncomfortable because foam rubber hats are just like so uncomfortable.
+
+[1:59] You ever wear a foam rubber hat for any length of time? You want to take that on as uh something you're gonna do, like wear the foam rubber hat for a long time? Yeah. We shouldn't spend too much time on it, but I did learn recently that cheesehead is a racial slur toward the Dutch. Ooh, well they make some Dutch they make some Dutch style cheeses in uh in Wisconsin, so maybe that's I don't know.
+
+[2:16] But uh in Wisconsin it's no parts racial slur. Who said it was a racial slur against the Dutch? The internet. The internet. And did was there any actual like angry Dutch person somewhere?
+
+[2:26] I mean, I'm sure somewhere, yeah. It's just you know, there's like a database of racial slurs and it was listed. I mean like uh German soldiers used to call the Dutch cheese heads. Well in in in German uh Kazakulpf. Oh, we got a caller.
+
+[2:41] Yeah, all right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh it's David from California. How you doing? Got a Yeah, good. I I got a question about pressure cookers.
+
+[2:50] Um I'm up at altitude and uh I can't use uh I really can't use an electric pressure cooker, so is there some way that uh is there some way that I can uh get a setup without getting too DIY uh that I can uh I can sort of have a setup that I can walk away from that I can, you know, set for um uh my my my pressure that I need and then walk away from it uh but have that extended uh pressure that I need at my altitude. Right. So first thing you have to do, so I mean, so obviously at altitude, you can use even like an electric pressure cooker to get to the temperatures that we can down here on our on our you know low altitude setting, right? The first thing you need to do is you need to calculate the uh the pressure difference between where you are and uh and sea level, right? I mean what you need to what you need to do is you need to figure out how many how much excess PSI you need to get to that same temperature.
+
+[3:57] What? Three PSI. Three? So you so you need to pull about eighteen, you need to do about eighteen PSI, uh relative PSI to be getting to my to my atmospheric levels down here where I am. Yeah.
+
+[4:09] Okay. Now there's a couple of ways uh you can do this. Um all of them are obviously not recommended uh by the manufacturers, right? So on the electric pressure cookers like uh the Cuisinart, you can they're not actually sensing uh pressure, they're sensing uh temperature, so you can mess with it, right? And I I posted an article on that once.
+
+[4:35] I don't necessarily recommend you go and do that because you know risk of danger, etc. etc. Yeah, I've I've seen that article and uh that's it's that's above my head anyway. So then the the next two, like like depending on I I don't know of a good way to alter the uh Fagor style uh pressure cookers that have the little twist knob on them. I don't know, I don't have a good way to modify those.
+
+[4:58] But if you use uh old-style jiggler weight pressure cooker, so Iwatani used to make them, uh, American pressure canner still makes them, right? American pressure canner is interesting, like the problem with it is it's aluminum, and so if you're gonna do a lot of acidic work, uh some people don't don't like it, some people don't like cooking in aluminum, and also like a lot of them are very big. But uh the American pressure cooker canner corp corporation, they're the only people that have a gauge that I really trust, right? Now they're an old jiggler style, which means that it's gonna be venting, which is not ideal, right? Because you know, if you've read my stuff on pressure cooking I don't really like pressure cookers that vent if you're gonna do things like stock that said that said what you can do on any sort of jiggler style is just um what they're fundamentally doing is they have an orifice of known size and then they put a weight a certain weight on it and and by doing that they know kind of at what pressure the steam is going to force the weight off the top and then have it sprayed down right so what you can do is increase the weight.
+
+[5:57] So if you're gonna have like an American pressure canner situation you can just you know add weights to their jiggler weight and in fact the American pressure canner is nice because uh the jiggler weight has like three different uh holes that you can use and they have three different weight settings depending on kind of uh you know how hard it needs to push that to go up so you take the highest one and then you add enough weight has to be down low so it's not off center or anything and then you look at the gauge when it starts venting and you can set it to since you only need three pit psi over pressure right you can do that because none of the safeties on a pressure cooker are going to start engaging until well over three PSI over their limits. Alright? Yeah. Now you yeah you've talked about the the the pressure sterilizer before and I I was looking at that um is it have you ever tried to control that uh with a uh with uh an induction burner um yes but not I didn't try very hard right so yeah you can you can uh put a pressure cooker in uh in a in a in a temperature controlled oil bath on an induction burner and you can do it, right? So the question is is if your if your induction burner is is good, is pretty good, right?
+
+[7:13] Then you, you know, let's say it can with you know it can maintain you know plus or minus four or five degrees, then you could just use uh the sterilizer uh or even uh you know like a like a heavily modded uh regular one with the jiggler and just uh yeah and have it just go to that temperature and you can verify that it's reaching the the temperature you need by looking at the gauge. And I have had I would say moderate success. I was using it because I wanted very even heat transfer when I was doing custards on uh I was trying to do pressure cooked uh durian custard, and I was never able to succeed and remake the one batch that I made by accident one day, which is still a lifelong disappointment for me. But um, yeah, you can do it, but I think you know you're gonna be easier um like on a repeated basis just being able to try and do it on a stove top uh by modifying that that jiggler weight. Now, if you if you're moving to something like a coon recon, right, in a coon recon the uh the pressure is determined by the um spring.
+
+[8:16] There's a there's a spring that um there's a spring that force it that you push down, right? Uh sorry, there's a spring that pushes the uh the valve down, and as it as the pressure increases, it pushes from the inside against the spring up up, and you see first ring, and then you see second ring, and then after the second ring, you still have more pressure, and then after another you know amount of time, then psh the coon recon starts to vent out through that valve, right? My guess is that that venting doesn't happen until around three PSI over pressure over the 15. So I'm guessing you could probably get 18 out of a coon recon before it starts venting, although I'm not sure. Now here's where things get hinky, right?
+
+[9:01] You could uh you could put a stiffer spring into that coon recon thing, or and I'm not saying I recommend this, you could perhaps stretch that spring to give it a little bit of a permanent set so it's a little bit bigger so that you have to put more compression on it to get it uh to the uh right pressure levels. But unless you have some adequate way of measuring, let's say using an oil bath for measuring purposes beforehand, right? Then if you had an oil bath to measure beforehand, you could set it to a temperature that you knew was 18 PSI, which I I forget, the number's gonna be somewhere around 250 something Fahrenheit, right? Uh you could see where it hits, you could stretch the spring out a little bit, reassemble it, and then uh put it at 250 and see where it hits on the valve and figure out roughly how much you've adjusted the pressure that way. Is that make sense?
+
+[9:51] Yeah. Okay. I mean, I don't not I can't recommend any of this crap, but if you have a good induction burner, I would set it to about uh do you remember, do you happen to remember offhand what the temperature is for uh atmospheric for sorry for uh 15 PSI at uh at uh sea level, it's like two fifty something, right? Yeah, it should be two fifty pretty much on the dot, right? Yeah, somewhere around there.
+
+[10:13] So I would say if you have something like let's say you even have a s uh well you hard you could do with a circulator actually, set it to just don't do it in plastic, right? Set it to uh two, don't mean if you have an old metal circulator, I should say, uh set it to two fifty Fahrenheit and uh you know put the thing in the oil bath and just wait a while and see. Well, well, let me start this way. What kind of pressure cooker do you have? Uh I have a coon recon.
+
+[10:35] Okay, good. So set it uh set it, you know, in in that bathroom. If you have an induction burner that can do a pretty accurate two fifty, set it uh with you know, with like you know, it's not a lot of water because you don't want it to take a long time to heat up, you know, like you know, like you know, a finger or so of water. Wait for it to heat up and see where the where the pressure thing hits. And if it hasn't made it to vent level yet, if it's just like you know, it's it's it's over the second ring but not quite venting yet, then you can kind of figure out where you are, then obviously let it cool down and do your modifications.
+
+[11:04] The good news is if you hose it, you can buy that spring and it's not that expensive. Like that spring you can buy it from Coon Recon. I I've had to buy parts from them. I forget whether you have to email them directly or not. But you know, an interesting thing, you know, we maybe we should ask someone like Coon Recon to make a special spring for people who cook at altitude.
+
+[11:22] You know what I'm saying? Because for them it would cost nothing. You know, that would be that would be nice. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you'd be able to tweak it.
+
+[11:30] But um, why don't you give that a shot? And if you could call back with uh with your results, I'd appreciate it because I like to know whether things like this work. Yeah, I I I'd like my Coon Recon to work. I uh you know, I I'd be willing to get the all American uh sterilizer uh i if I need to. But they're a little harder, they're a little harder to work with.
+
+[11:51] I mean, uh honestly I've only used the really, really giant one and I use it because it's really giant, but it's not nearly as you know, it's it's a lot more of a pain in the butt because it doesn't have any gaskets or gasket lists, which is good for some things, but not necessarily good for ease of just using a pressure cooker all the time because it it's got these little uh screw dads that you screw down. It looks like you're like a submarine bulkhead or something like this with these like screw dads that you have to screw all the way around. You have to make sure that they're sealing, because if you don't, you know, do it like you do a tire lug nut. If you don't like go across in a star pattern, you can like torque the the lid of it. Um and you know, they are aluminum.
+
+[12:27] I mean, they're really good at what they're good at, and the gauges are really good, but I don't cook with mine. I use I use it for experiments. So if you can get your Coon Recon to do what you want it to do, I would get your Coon Recon to do it what you want. You might want to buy a spring first and then dork with that spring so that you're not like high and dry in case you do something horrible. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:47] Yeah. Um it's not an expense. And also, if I don't know if like, you know, I often disassemble my Coon Recon uh for cleaning, so it's pretty easy to get to the my memory is it's pretty easy to get to the spring. You just unscrew the unscrew it from the bottom, hold on to the thing, unscrew it from the bottom, and you should be able to pop the entire assembly out for cleaning. And there's just no way of taking a direct temperature measurement in the Coon Recon.
+
+[13:11] There is, but it requires drilling a hole through it. Okay. You know, the other the or temporarily disabling one of one of its safeties. So like there's a there's a rubber safety plug in the side of a Coon Recon. It's a little blue uh silicone uh rubber plug.
+
+[13:26] You need to replace it every once in a while anyway. Mine blew out. That's what I knocked knocked in at the lab like a year ago and like sprayed chicken grease all of a sudden. Remember that stuff? Remember it well, right?
+
+[13:35] Uh so if you get an extra one of those plugs, you can drill under like drill that plug, but under, like only a little bit, and then shove a thermocouple through that plug down into your product and do a direct measure of temperature. But then you're gonna want to throw that plug away and put a fresh plug in when you're done. I mean, that's a I wouldn't run it all the time that way, but it's a temporary way to get it exactly where you want it. And again, those plugs aren't that expensive. So if you get a rebuild kit from Coon Recon, they'll send you the the if you tell them what you need, they'll send you that plug.
+
+[14:04] Uh and again, I would I would drill out your old one because it's always nice to have a fresh plug. Then you know they'll probably send you a new gasket at the same time. I forget exactly what I got, but I got a complete rebuild, including the the stem assembly with a spring. I got the uh the plug and everything. Or you could just get a new plug and measure the temperature right before it starts to vent, so that you could, you know, do it without any spring modification at all.
+
+[14:27] You might be able to get the temperature you need with no modification, you know. Okay. But you see, you know what I'm saying? Do you understand what I'm saying about that plug? That little that little blue plug underneath the if you pull up the uh the coon recons come with a plate that fits over the top, a little like little rattling plate that's meant to deflect steam down, should all crap go wrong.
+
+[14:46] I lost mine years ago, so I don't have one of those plates, but then you know, on that little thing on the inside is a blue is a blue silicone plug that is uh removable from uh it's removable by popping it out. Okay. Alrighty, let me know how what yeah, I I I know exactly what you're talking about. So okay. All right, let me know how it goes.
+
+[15:07] Okay, thanks, Dave. Appreciate it. All right, cool. Um Alexander, oh wait, we were talking what were we talking about, Sash? Uh nothing.
+
+[15:15] We're talking about cheese heads, but cheese heads. Oh, yeah. I think we're done. Uh anyway, my point is my point is is that like it I would like any Dutch person to call to call in and say whether or not they're actually offended by uh by TCS. That's a challenge.
+
+[15:27] That is a challenge. I want I want someone who's actually legitimately offended by this to call in because I don't think that such person exists. We have a caller and he's in studio with a book. Yeah, all right, hold on a sec. We have Patrick Martin's in the studio.
+
+[15:40] Hey, what's up? Nothing, and he's uh he's here uh hawking the Carnivores Manifesto, the new book by Patrick Martins, uh with uh with Mike Edison, who, by the way, was the editor in chief, I believe, of High Times. Yes, he was. Yeah, and uh, but then also did a bunch of he'd done a bunch of other good books with right, like uh he wrote uh Joe Bastyanich's Restaurant Man with him, which is the New York Times bestseller. Yeah.
+
+[16:05] It was about the underbelly of the restaurant world and what it's like to open restaurants, and uh it was a fun book for him to write. He also told me that uh Hugh Hefner hates women. Hugh Efner hates women and he hates Hugh Hefner. Uh he's worked with all of them. Who's the guy from Hustler?
+
+[16:18] I forgot Larry Flint. He loves him, he loves all those guys, but he never liked Hugh Hefner. Well, he said that you know, for whatever else you think about Larry Flint, right? When there's many things you could think about Larry Flint, he said that Larry Flint legitimately not uh when I say likes women, I mean I don't I mean uh I'm not gonna try to portray Hustler as you know uh a paradigm of uh I'm gonna put it this way Larry Flint enjoys the company of women. That's what I mean to say, not likes them in sort of a you know reasonable way.
+
+[16:43] I see what you mean. Yeah. Well, yeah, he uh he's really been on that dark, uh dark underbelly of uh of food, uh uh of life, of culture, and that's why I thought he was a great guy to partner with for the book, because I was not looking to do a traditional, oh, this is sustainability, and these are labels that you need to be looking for at the supermarket. There are basic truths out there. Uh, you know, gastronomy, Carlo Petrini always said uh gastronomy is not a strictly opinion thing.
+
+[17:09] There are facts in gastronomy, some things, you know, that's why 95% of all cheese people think Parmigiano Reggiano is the number one cheese in the world, because there's certain agreement about that. Yeah, although that's although you know that's something that's been cited so many damn times, and I don't You don't believe it. I I don't understand it. The best cheese for what? It's not the best cheese to s to to like to like you know put on a piece of bread when you're eating it.
+
+[17:31] Right, true. I mean, Parmigiano is an amazing, amazing cheese. I love it. I you know, but I hate all sorts of best, best this or that. Like if you were gonna I mean, what's the best cheese to have with a glass of port?
+
+[17:42] It's still like I think everyone agrees that the best cheese they have with a glass of port is still well, I do agree that uh certain best top things are bad, but like uh you know, I don't like top ten lists where there if you do top ten restaurants in New York City, the top ten should always that should be the same list every year, with rare exception that someone gets bumped on or comes on or bumped off. And uh so I I do know what you mean about picking the best, but I like to know what's the best terroir for wine in America. We should start ranking those things because if we're ever gonna see ourselves like France does them and Italy does them, we have to look at ourselves as a gastronomic mosaic around the USA and and recognize expertise where it exists. Georgia makes the best peaches, as does Western Michigan, as does OHI. But New Jersey, that's not the best peach.
+
+[18:32] And by the way, for all the talk about the best tomatoes coming from New Jersey, I don't know if they actually taste it. Whoa. Now you're you're telling me that you've had a better tomato than either the Aunt Ruby's German green or the German uh or the German stripes from uh from Stokes. Is that New Jersey? Yeah.
+
+[18:53] Um well that's a good question. I I can see I crossed the line here, but I mean I think that's better because it's local, although I do have a chapter in my book that says eat the best, not the local to hell with local. I mean, I think I agree with you, like on like on one level I agree with you in that I think what Europe has done really well is say, look, here is a product that has certain characteristics, and let's let's like enumerate and preserve these quality characteristics, right? So in other words, like prosciutto the you know department, they like we can all agree what the best prosciutto de Parma is in stylistic terms, and let's protect that and like give it a label that makes sense, right? It's not saying it's the best ham in the world.
+
+[19:35] It's just saying, you know within Parma, there is a hierarchy. Or there is a particular style, it comes from here, we're the best at it, you can't make it. You know what I mean? Is that I mean I think that maybe we're agreeing. Yeah, yeah, maybe we do agree.
+
+[19:47] I think we agree on most things. So uh and so yeah, so yeah, I think you'll agree when I wrote one chapter was called Alphabet Soup, and it was about your museum of food and drink. And I my last line our museum. Our museum, thanks for making me the vice president. Um I did say it's a giant leap for mankind, and it really is.
+
+[20:06] Because I was saying uh at the fundraiser the other day, you know, if you had said it was sixteen hundred and two guys like you and me were sitting around and be like, let's do a museum that involves animals and all that. Like, what should we do? Wild animals from Africa, and is that the future? Do you think food museums is the future? Back then, almost everybody would have said food museums is the future.
+
+[20:25] And yet, not only has it not been the future, there is not one food museum in the world. That can maintain itself, right? That doesn't matter. And there is a natural history museum in every major city in the world. So it's just funny how it's a hundred percent to zero.
+
+[20:37] There is not one food museum that's like a real big picture food museum. So that's it's a travesty. It is a it's it's crazy. Who would have ever bet their money that there would not be one food museum? But that was just one chapter in the So let's let's talk a little bit about the uh the Carnivores Manifesto.
+
+[20:54] Is it is it out right now? It comes out on June 10th, and unfortunately you cannot buy it on Amazon because my publisher hatchet is out of our with Bezos. Oh, you're uh just worst time every it's gonna be over soon. Uh it was last time. They you never know, but either way, you can buy it on Barnes and Nobles.com, or most importantly, you could support your local bookseller.
+
+[21:13] Or pay you can you buy it from Heritage Radio? Uh yes, it will have copies for Heritage Radio, of course. The profit, yes, that's true. That'll be uh huge, huge uh financial So let's but let's talk about this. I'm presuming that this Amazon thing's gonna blow over because that's bad for both Amazon and the publisher.
+
+[21:32] Well, Hatchet is put down the hatchet. They say we will not tolerate this type of price uh pressure anymore. And so they are, you know, this sounds like one that could last a little longer than the last time. So you're telling me they're mad as well and they're not gonna take it anymore? Yeah, they're just not gonna take it.
+
+[21:46] So let's uh let's look at uh one of the chapters. You mentioned it a little bit, but when you were writing the book, we were talking, and this is kind of the one that's gonna generate the most heat for you personally, is uh is a third chapter to hell with local, eat the best. And so uh that's my my imitation of the case. That's good, thank you. Uh so I mean this is a really interesting thing because usually people and this is something I I hate uh kind of about all commentary of all subjects everywhere, uh, is uh someone who thinks about you and thinks about uh kind of heritage uh foods in general, is gonna they paint they're gonna paint you with the same brush that they paint everyone uh who is involved in the kind of or was like the for instance the one of the founders of Slow Food USA, which you were, right?
+
+[22:30] Paint you all with the same brush. That is you're all local, you all believe you you all have a unified uh you all have a unified view of what uh good food is and what's important and you know what we should be doing. Not the case. I think the average person like this person here that's uh drinking some sort of some of uh ice coffee outside the studio, if I were to ask them whether or not you or someone like you would be a uh like a confirmed local or they would say yes, but in fact, no. Slow food was never about eating local.
+
+[22:58] Carl Pugini founded SoFood if the best anchovies came from Sicily and the best lentils came from Puy France and the best uh, you know, whatever. I mean, he would go anywhere around the world to get the best meal he could. And whereas he always wanted to reward local terroir and local gastronomy. In fact, he was probably the major reason that Barbaresco and Barolo's became so powerful in the mid-80s, early eighties, they were terrible wines, late 70s. He was a big proponent.
+
+[23:29] So you should always try to reward and improve your local terroir, but by saying that uh, you know, no offense, New Jersey has the best tomatoes when perhaps another region, or let's say peaches, it's just not the case. Um you're actually propping up a third-rate product. You're hurting the farmer, you're hurting your own gastro gastronomic experience, and I just think it's important to be the best and to recognize that each region of this country makes certain things. I mean, uh, would you eat I know pigs that wouldn't even hunt for local truffles in Oregon. You know, they would refuse to hunt for them because they're not very tasty.
+
+[24:04] Listen, I'm not gonna get in the in the in the throw down on uh on Oregon uh truffle. They're not the same, clearly. It doesn't mean that they're bad. There's not the same. But you shouldn't eat a Loreg Oregon truffle and be like, this is a fantastic truffle, shave these and use them like you would truffles because it's local.
+
+[24:19] That's ridiculous. They they have a long way to go, and maybe they shouldn't even be focusing on truffles, they should be focusing on other things that the climate is adapted for. Strong words. You know, and I just think uh local is a distance, it's not a guest gastronomic term. Local is just a distance.
+
+[24:35] So is there any moral problem to buying stuff at a distance if you can afford to pay for it? Well, you know, I mean, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I think uh, you know, money is a big thing. I have a thing, uh, one of my chapters is the 140 dollar turkey. I was gonna ask you about that.
+
+[24:52] It to claim uh, you know, uh the the 140 dollar turkey, well, let's say the $10 turkey, the two dollar a pound turkey, it a genetically it's been m manipulated. And the most important chapter in this book is called survival of the fattest. These uh big corporations they breed for genetic misfits if it leads to more profit. So they suffer on that level. They are so sick from their bad genetics, they're forced to grow so fast, so much faster than they can that they need antibiotics pumped into their feed just to survive.
+
+[25:27] Um that's an unhealthy turkey. People shouldn't eat that. And whereas we're not perfect and we know it's always a slow turning of the wheel and it's not an overnight thing. To tell a poor person that they should eat an unhealthy turkey is classist and borders on racism, even. I mean, it's uh it's a classist thing.
+
+[25:47] The poor person should be told the same thing that the rich person is told. You will be unhealthy if you eat that turkey. Now, everyone eats uh a BLT with bad bacon in it that comes from a cure system. We're not a utopic uh book that you know we understand about reality, but the rich person should be told the same as the poor. You don't have a dual standard for what you tell them.
+
+[26:09] And if that one that turkey is a sick turkey and is unhealthy for you, that goes for rich and poor. We might have to eat less meat in this country. That's an answer, but we certainly should never make a different argument to someone because of how much money they have in their bank account. An unhealthy m animal is an unhealthy animal. I mean, this is a long and tough argument, which we should have against them.
+
+[26:28] You should come back on again to have an argument about this because it's hugely, and this is like one of the museum topics in general, it's like hugely difficult. But on more personal level, I mean I think right now, I mean, I think it's it's obvious that you know the average person, you know, where everyone in the family, if there's more than one adult in the family, has to work, you know, uh uh more than they would have uh, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, for less money, and they want to put food on their table, there's a huge disincentive to spend um just culturally. I'm just talking about meat. This is the carnivore. Is that we have, you know, the meat on the table.
+
+[27:18] You get the chicken when you want it, you can have the the the beef when you need it. I mean, this is like this is still like the cultural uh, you know, I you know, ideal of what it means to be a semi-prosperous American. So it's very difficult to tell someone that they shouldn't go buy a product that makes them and their family feel like they're doing well or doing okay. You know what I mean? Well, I think it's more important the way you are inside, the health of your body.
+
+[27:44] I mean, Temple Grandin just came out with the statement that said uh eighty percent of all uh between twenty and eighty percent of all chickens arrive to the slaughterhouse already injured because of how unhealthy their bodies are. Those very same companies dump a lot of the industrial waste from those farms into rivers. So if a poor person eats that chicken, they are complicit in a crime, a crime that I commit too all the time, but they need to know, and everyone needs to kill that elitist argument because we should all strive for the good chicken. And to tell everybody, anybody that they shouldn't. Now I understand you should also strive for meat on your table to be part of the American thing, but we also can't uh unwittingly shield the robber barons from criticism.
+
+[28:28] The Goldman Sachs's of the world and the Purdues. I mean, look, the problem is that I think nobody argues that there's a whole bunch of externalities that don't show up on the price tag at Walmart. You know what I mean? Uh to producing a chicken, let's say. Uh there's a but the you know the issue is is that I think it's very hard to it's very hard to get people to change uh if the price if the price tag remains the way it is and the externalities to producing the crappy chicken or crappy turkey uh don't like make their way down to the price tag, I think it's a hard problem to solve.
+
+[29:00] Well, it is a hard problem. I mean, I personally think pasta is, and we we said uh there's a chapter in there, these are all 52-page essays. So, you know, they're very short essays, and uh the meatball shop, they do it. That uh dinner at the meatball shop competes with the dinner at McDonald's if you order one of their value menus, you know, like six six fifty, five ninety-five. Uh meatball shop.
+
+[29:21] Also, what about pasta with ragoo on it? You're using two amount of meat. Yeah, no, it's yeah, definitely. That's the truth. That's where we have to get.
+
+[29:28] In fact, I write in the Vegetarians You have Blood on Your Hands chapter that this might be the greatest manifesto for vegetarianism ever written because of how critical we are of fast food. Do you know Temple Grandon works for McDonald's? I know, and in fact, I think that now to be fair to Temple, uh McDonald's has co-opted Temple's good work at the slaughterhouse. And by the way, all those animals are killed very well at McDonald's, but they co-opt her good image to uh give the impression that everything they do is good. When in reality the her real effect is on those last few minutes of the animals, and that's hugely important.
+
+[30:06] But the rest of the time they're deforesting, uh they're deforesting at the Amazon, they do all these terrible things. Those animals are pushed to grow faster than they can, uh than they should, and naturally that's why they're cardiovascular, skeletal, respiratory systems cannot grow that fast. I've heard stats that a chicken at slaughter weight is the equivalent of a 349-pound human. When we start doing that to our livestock, and that's a lot of the percentage of the meat we eat in this country, 90 percent, 95 percent, something like that. That's a fact, and survival of the fattest, not the fittest, is a real uh issue that I think this book brings up.
+
+[30:47] And I in fact learned it from Frank Reese, our poultry guy, who was doing this from an ethical perspective, and he's chosen to fight that fight by growing chickens that are not compromised genetically for profit. There's a difference between genetic engineering and you know what farmers do. Farmers breed for certain things too, but they're looking for a balanced animal, one that could survive in nature and reproduce. So this argues for that market. It also does not try to deny the fact that we eat 11 billion livestock.
+
+[31:17] Uh we eat 11 billion livestock in this country, so we should start thinking about how those animals are raised. So uh to ask you one more quickie before we go. So, you know, one of the reasons that uh you know that the meat that you know you you sell at a heritage costs m more than um than you know cra crap crap meat, not only uh is it is the i the this scale on which it's done. Do you believe that fifteen uh twenty years from now it's it will be cheaper it's yeah not as cheap as not as cheap as the crap meat but do you think it will be cheaper per pound because you'll be able to have bet like better distribution routes things like this things that make that kind of thing more economical no no I don't think it will be I think there might be some efficiencies that come up that bring the cost down but um I learned that from Carlo Petrini he says no to raise fifty pigs they grow slower that's one so that means they live longer that's too so you have to feed them more and just so you know a turkey is normally a very discriminating discriminating eater. So what do they do on the corporate farms?
+
+[32:25] They cut off its beak so it can't pick. So all it can do is use its beak as a shovel and they keep the lights on on the indoors it never sees the outdoors they're all artificially inseminated so no sex is ever happening on this farm. So they have turned their face in unelective surgery into disconfigured shovel so that it can shovel their antibiotic ridden this is an animal so sick that they need medicine in their food just to survive their life and they arrived at the solderhouse injured. No it will never be that cheap. That is too cheap.
+
+[32:59] That is plain God that is pushing it like the Nazis did that's a Nazi like thing and I hate to say that word but it's true. Go and go and Hitler on well I mean Purdue and stuff like that and they never say no antibiotics because they can't. Those animals would die in their little uh barns there before they got to weight. So you don't even think it will ever become cheaper. I'm not saying cheap ass.
+
+[33:19] You don't even think it will be cheaper. No, cheaper, yes. I said some efficiencies would happen, and I hope that uh, you know, uh people get into this idea of buying whole lamb. You know, uh you can't get the best lamb in this country and order it in pieces. You pretty much have to commit to a half lamb, cut into pieces, but you commit to the whole lamb.
+
+[33:37] So you know what I mean? Yes, uh, it's it's still an uphill battle, although I s uh I don't think it'll ever be as cheap. I do think it will be a little bit cheaper, and you can save money by I say cooking pastas, buying whole animals. And by the way, I think corporate things, I mean uh McDonald's, that's still a six, seven dollar meal. A pasta is a half that price.
+
+[33:58] So I know that's one's going out and one's eating home. Yeah, but still it's not as much as a depends on whether you how much you know, do you buy the good oil, do you buy the Parmigiano Reggiano price uppity up, uppity, uppity up, you know? No, I mean I just say for meat. So I understand now if I was making the argument that food should be more expensive all around so that we don't do this and that, that would be a problem, and I would be wrong. But I think when it comes to meat, this country just has to eat a little bit less meat.
+
+[34:24] But the pr the way to do that is to embrace the fact that we eat a lot of meat. Not to try to uh first question at any sustainable meat conference, should we eat meat? We do. Eleven billion livestock. Come on, let's get with the program.
+
+[34:39] I'm one example. But since heritage food started in 2004, I see dozens of butcher shops and other distribution systems. The answer is starting to push at the gates. And uh I'm gonna I sense that things will be cheaper and uh but never never that cheap. Cheaper but never cheaper.
+
+[34:55] You will never be cutting off the beaks of turkeys so that they get fat in a third the time as they are intended in nature. That's one of my things. Sex cells. Another thing people forget. Sex, animals that have sex, turkeys are only available for eating in November.
+
+[35:10] Ducks and geese. How come everyone in Charles Dickens book was always eating a duck and a goose in Christmas? Because that's when cycles of the earth, Earth orbiting around the sun, that's when nature gives us those animals. But we artificially inseminate everybody, and that AI, artificial insemination, is how they're able to control and grow these kind of freaks, is because they find a chicken so disfigured, they pull his genetic, pull them from the flock. Not to remove them from the flock, but to artificially inseminate the next generation with his genetics.
+
+[35:39] Maybe that's how I was made. And they bred him with another genius. Okay, well, take the caller, but Pat Patrick, one of the things that you mentioned with quickly is that each like this is a pow pow pow pow book. It's like two page essays. 50 page 50 essays, two page, powder.
+
+[36:00] Middleweight fight. Which is very much like Patrick himself. Why don't you stay around here for because we have a caller we're going to take really quickly? Caller, you're on the air. Thanks, dude.
+
+[36:07] Hey Dave. Uh it's Brandon from Chicago. Hey, how are you doing? Um, thanks. Uh I've got a question about Suzy, barbecue, and cold smoking.
+
+[36:17] Alrighty. Um, so I would like to make some smoked products, uh, and I don't have an actual smoker. I do have a smoker box that burns pellets, and it kicks it out pretty well. Like I'm I'm pretty pleased with it. Uh, but I don't really have an environment where I can use that and also keep the heat below, say, 215 because I'm using my gas grill as sort of the uh you know place where all the smoking happens.
+
+[36:43] So wait, so you have a box that attaches to the grill, like uh like a bron like a whatever they are, Brunson or whatever, that attaches to the side of the grill via via like a port? No, it's uh it's a little tube. Uh it's made by uh Mason products. I don't know if you've heard about them before, but uh you just it's like a drilled out box basically that you you put the pellets in and you just sit it under the grill brakes and uh and just let it go. Right.
+
+[37:08] Um so it does a pretty good job. So uh my dilemma is that I'm either left to sort of cold smoking at sort of ambient temperatures or going above 200 degrees and getting uh you know outside of uh sort of temperature range where I'd like to get if I'm gonna smoke sous vide meats. So I was wondering if you were gonna do some like sous vide smoked pork belly or like a soa'd pork shoulder, first would you smoke it before you put it in the bag or afterwards? Uh and then if you were gonna do it before, how do you deal with having raw meat sitting around uh for hours just you know, kind of at ambient temperatures doing cold smoking. How long is the cold how long is your uh how much smoke do you want to put on?
+
+[37:56] How long do you need to have it in the cold smoker? And are these commodity meats or heritage meats? Like four to six hours maybe. I don't know. I like a lot of smoke on it.
+
+[38:05] Yeah, I mean you could like what some people do is they'll they'll they'll put the meat on like uh, you know, like or over a bed of like uh ice almost to keep it like even below ambient. Like they'll put like a uh a rack over a sheet tray with ice and then let the smoke go around it, and then uh, you know, the ice isn't directly touching the food, but you can actually keep the temperatures down like to where it's you know fairly safe. Um that's one way to do it. Or, you know, uh but the thing is that if you're gonna smoke cold, I would definitely do a a nitrate or you know, nitrite based cure so that you would inhibit any possibility of botulism uh happening um during a cold smoking procedure. Anytime you're gonna cold smoke uh for any length of time, you want to ensure that you're not gonna have um botulism problems.
+
+[38:50] Now, if you're gonna do sous vide afterwards, even if you had caused some you know uh some botulism growth on it, you're gonna you're gonna, you know, if you cook it properly sous vide, you're going to destroy the toxins and destroy the vegetative cells. You obviously won't destroy the spores because d you can't do that with sous vide, but that you know that that's one one way around it. But if you actually want the full sous- vide texture of it, then I would do I would do it before and cold. Now, if you if you want to sous vide it all the way through and you can do a hot smoking fairly quickly, right, then you can you'll overcook the outer sections of the meat, but you can get a good smoke on in a very in a shorter amount of time. If you do if you start uh if you do a a s like a sous vide, cool it all the way down, you can have it almost at you know fridge or below temps, pull it out, let it, you know, let it dry off in the fridge so that it gets a little bit of a pellicle in the fridge instead of the smoker, right?
+
+[39:41] And then throw it in your smoker cold, and then you can throw a hot smoke on it pretty quickly without overcooking through, and then do the rest of the retherm in uh you know in in a lower temp environment and do it that way. So it's all a question of how long you need to smoke it and how cold you can you can keep it. But if you're gonna do any appreciable cold smoking, I would definitely uh nitr nitrate it or nitrite it first. Nitrite it, right? Uh would you do that in a uh so I usually brine stuff before I uh do this and I put in about a gram of uh insecure number one per kilogram?
+
+[40:14] Uh do you think that'd be enough to to you know kick out the the botulism in the nasty, or should I up the in the brine, should I have the percentage? Uh the the insecure insecure one is the one that's n that's uh it's not mixed. You're using the pink stuff, right? I forget what the I forget what the I forget what the ratios are, but like any one of the charcuterie books has like brine levels, and I would just use the same amount of instacure that you would use in like a bacon-based brine recipe. Um, I unfortunately, like I do it so rarely that I don't have the numbers in my head, but like I would just consult any you know fundamental charcuterie manual.
+
+[40:51] Don't obviously consult the ones that are advocating nitr nitrate nitr nitrite free stuff because they're probably not then gonna do something like a cold smoke on it. But anyone that has you know uh a brine recipe with instacure should give you like a decent ratio, and I would just stick with that. Yeah, I wouldn't, especially, you know, if you're doing it um, you know, if you're doing yourself, I wouldn't worry about going like a little bit over. It's not gonna not gonna kill you as much as botulism will. All right, well, thanks.
+
+[41:18] Uh I appreciate it. All right, thanks. Uh let us know, uh, you know, tweet us or call us and let us know how it worked out for you. That's what I was gonna say. All right, well, do you think that's a good thing?
+
+[41:24] I was gonna answer just like you did. Really? All right, cool. We have the same answer. All right, so listen, we're gonna have to go now, but I will say what I didn't answer that I will answer.
+
+[41:31] Uh Rob Trapaz uh called about fiddlehead ferns and ostrich ferns. Actually, very interesting, like uh potential poisoning problems with ostrich ferns uh that are undercooked. I've done some research on it, and I'll get to you next time. Nigel Osin, uh Nigel Olson called in. He's gonna do some gluten-free, uh gluten-free like shoe pastry.
+
+[41:48] And guess who we have on next week, Stas? Lena Clock. Yeah, who is the founder and the chief uh everything officer of Cup for Cup, the uh gluten-free uh flour that is uh that Thomas Keller is also uh selling that their company's called Cup for Cup, and she will be on the show next week. No one will ever call her a quack. So I'll uh I will I will uh I will wait uh to answer your question until then.
+
+[42:12] And Ken and Gramercy talked about Chewy Crust in his pizza. I have a lot of stuff to say about that, but I'm gonna also try to get either maybe I'll try to get uh Jeff Steingarden to call in on that. What do you think? Because he's the master of the Chewy Crust. All right.
+
+[42:25] So those are the questions that I didn't get to that I will get to next week. And Alexander Saunders on the way out wants to know what is a word meaning a soul-wrenching need to sear something, but frustration at the inability to do so. Perhaps something German, tweeting your results, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[42:59] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:37] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marn, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you pre-taped. Pre-taped, right? Stas coming to you pre-taped on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you happen to have gotten our message that we're pre-taping today, you can still call in your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[0:52] That's 718497-2128. Uh today we have a very special uh guest in the studio. We have uh Lena Quak, who is the founder of Cup4Cup. Uh gluten-free, like kind of like the best known, like so for years. For those of you who have celiac, or perhaps you are one of those people that for some reason I don't understand just reduces your gluten intake even though you have no problem with it.
+
+[1:18] Um you know, one of the issues has been that there's been no very good kind of uh straight replacement for wheat flour that works in you know a variety of different recipes. And one of the reasons is because wheat flour is kind of a miracle. So uh, you know, uh Lena was at uh well I'll let her tell the story. Uh welcome to the show. Hi, everyone.
+
+[1:42] Hey, how you doing? And of course we got Stasy here, and we got we got uh Jack over in the booth, and we have Lindsay actually, Linda's uh publicist. So why don't you tell me a little story about uh how Cup for Cup came to exist? And correct me if I'm wrong, it's like the only decent one on the market, right? I don't know if I'd say that, but uh we definitely focus on quality control.
+
+[1:59] So give me give me a little bit of the story. So I actually interned at the French Laundry uh right out of culinary school, and uh one of the things that I noticed was that the chefs work about fourteen to twelve hours a shift, and so these are really creative creature uh creative individuals and um they had no time to experiment with all of their innovative thoughts. And so I wrote out a proposal at the end of my internship to uh create a position, RD chef at the French laundry. And the chef at the time, Corey Lee, he actually uh took this concept and took it to Thomas and I was accepted as the RD chef. And from there I did a lot of dietary restrictions for uh diabetic uh dishes and then also gluten-free and vegans and with the one dish that really resonated well with the chefs were the gluten-free bread.
+
+[2:56] And so from there, uh we started developing products because people were coming in and crying over pieces of bread uh because they haven't had it for seven years. And uh with about a year and a half we dove into this project and started developing a gluten-free flour line. Nice. So now I think something that people might not understand, uh I mean probably listeners to this show understand, but like how much care um you know restaurants, you know, at this level take with people who have everyone knows the chefs hate when people have restrictions, dietary restrictions. Every chef hates it when someone has a dietary restriction, right?
+
+[3:30] They hate it. They hate it, but you know, it's one of these things, there's a there's a divide with chefs. I feel like they are the chefs who, you know, it is it is their style and their as artists, you know, they feel so passionate about what they serve, they want to change anything because it is their piece of work. However, there are other group of chefs who understand also there's it's an experience, you know. And everyone has a preference as an individual.
+
+[3:51] So who are you to also tell an individual how to eat something? You know, and so there's two schools, thought I don't believe one or is better than the other. However, you know, for Thomas, it's really about how a guest takes in that experience. And he wants to make it everything. He doesn't want to dilute anything just because you may have a restriction.
+
+[4:12] Uh so he wants to elevate that whole experience for you. Right. I mean, I think one of the reasons why a lot of chefs hate people with not hate people, this is very it's very badly put. One of the one of the reasons that they they they get all hot and bothered when someone has a dietary restriction is and this is what I think people don't understand is that they are worried. It's not as I mean sometimes it's just ego.
+
+[4:32] But uh a lot of times I think the chef is worried that the person's gonna it's the same as when someone asks for their steak well done. The chef just worries that this person is actually not gonna have a good experience at the restaurant because now the chef has to cook something that the chef doesn't like or chef doesn't respect, or chef doesn't know whether the quality is the same, and they want the quality to be as good uh no matter what they put out. They want to be proud of what they put out and they want all the customers to have, you know, the best possible experience. And I think it's the nervousness that they're not gonna be able to do that in the face of certain dietary restrictions that gets a lot of a lot of chefs bent like a pretzel. But the you know, the fact of the matter is is that the in the more kind of high-end, more expensive restaurants are, the more typically they'll bend over backwards to try to accommodate this stuff if they can.
+
+[5:18] Absolutely. And you know, I think I I completely understand how chefs take this as they want to guide someone's experience to the level that they understand as experts what's going to be the best way to present one dish. But at the same time, those people who have certain, you know, specific needs or you know, they don't particularly like certain things, they're not gonna allow themselves experience that the way maybe a chef would like. And so rather than fighting that, I think it's just give people what they want. You know, they're coming in to have a certain level of expectation.
+
+[5:50] When they sit down, you know, they're paying for their meal, and I really believe that you know you have to accommodate people as they come in because they are your guests, you know. Now, when you're when you're trying to develop something that is uh gluten-free flour that uh works for uh kind of any application, right? I mean, w there's a there's a lot of issues with that because a lot of recipes, right, use one aspect of wheat flour, and a lot of recipes use different aspects of wheat flour. And uh very few, very few things uh you know act like like wheat flour in every kind of situation. So, how did you how did you go about taking up this kind of you know how how did you approach this kind of a problem?
+
+[6:35] God, I'm so glad you brought this up. I can give you a hug because it's so hard to really explain to people, you know, that flour is such a complex single ingredient. You know, if anything, because of my research development through this, I've had such a deeper um appreciation for flour and its performance. But yes, there are different types of wheat flour that people don't really always consider. People always call in about cup for a cup.
+
+[6:59] Can it make bread? And and and yes, you could formulate you know a recipe using that ingredient, but it's not gonna perform the best. Bread flour will because it has higher gluten content. And even all-purpose flour is different from bread flour. And and so I think it's very hard for people to understand that there are there are different applications for just regular flour that you know with cup for cup what I really focused on was what were people missing the most from baking was cookies, quick breads, um pies, biscuits.
+
+[7:32] I felt like that was what the home cook is looking for. So I really needed to develop something that was more like pastry flour if anything however able to perform in different recipes. Right. As a multipurpose. Right because none of those applications rely heavily on gluten.
+
+[7:46] In fact a lot of those a lot of those applications people try to shunt out the gluten in you know in in a lot of ways. So you know those are kind of good good applications but um even frying also it works better with uh like tempura batters because there's no gluten that's going to cause it to be a soggy fry battery do you like tempura? I I don't me personally I don't like to eat a lot of fried but uh I definitely like uh crispy yeah I mean that's the thing I think uh tempura I'm gonna get yelled at by somebody but like it's one of those things that I think that you know every everyone thinks it's the most like many like uh very tweaked out Japanese techniques people think that it's kind of the height of the fry and I just I don't think that's necessarily the case. I mean I think that I think that you know I've had some very good tempuro chefs make stuff for me and I'm like yes this is good do I think this is the height of fried no I like the shattered like light fry if sometimes I don't even like a batter actually I like it when that it really is a very thin, shattered fry. If you're talking about specific frying methods.
+
+[8:51] Yeah so tempura is not my favorite because it might be a little thicker, but I've had a wonderful tempura before. Yeah, yeah, it's good, but then it's like also like you need to eat it instantaneously. They under fry it so it's so freaking blonde, and it's like, you know, it's well, whatever. I don't want to uh that don't don't give me a start, don't give me start. So the uh no, but the so but like a lot of the the applications that you say, and I think this is the way to hit things that people miss the most, because a lot of people they're gonna bring up bread the most difficult.
+
+[9:16] I mean the most difficult. But even bread, you know, it's one of those things that uh it takes such technique and years of experience to make good bread, you know. Um and I again it's not something that we're not working on. It's it's gonna be a lot more work than just pastry flour. Right.
+
+[9:34] Now, aside from the gluten, the actual starches, like in other words, wheat starch works differently from other kinds of starches and f for many reasons, right? One is because um of the different kind of the the actual texture of the flour when it's ground, the gran granule structure, right? And then there's how the how the actual structure it is. Now the reason you can't, let's say, just do all rice flour is because it acts totally differently and it will be like a rice bun or a rice noodle, which is not what people are looking for, correct? It's completely different.
+
+[10:04] You know, and I I'll walk through the ingredients. So we have cornstarch, which really acts as r uh when you think about flour and its performance in a recipe, it's a filler. You know, it really is the body of um the body of the recipe in a baking uh formula. And then you have rice flours that is gonna provide more of a textural difference because cornstarch is just too fluffy. And then the other ingredients are really for elasticity purposes, you know.
+
+[10:30] How do you bind? Because that's what flour does as well. It binds and it will be able to, within the baking process, how steam and everything works, hold its shape. And so that's really how the formula goes. So what are the what are the other ones?
+
+[10:43] You have cornstarch, you have rice. What else you got in here? We've got um tapioca, potato starch, xanthom gum, and milk powder, which is another thing that is really important to point out. It adds tenderness. A lot of other gluten-free flours, they have eliminated dairy because they want to it's a larger market when you do dairy-free, gluten-free, everything free, you know.
+
+[11:03] But for for us, when we decided this, if I took out the milk powder, it was gonna be uh less performing flour and milk solids, right? So there's no la lactose in it. No, there is. It's uh it's uh skim milk powder, you know, and um it's very crucial to the baking process. It will create a tender crumb.
+
+[11:22] No, milk proteins are awesome. Yeah, they really are. Um but okay, so you have the the potato, which swells fast, right? Yes. And then you had uh what was the other one?
+
+[11:32] Tapioca. Tapioca's weird. You ever cook with straight tapioca? That's a strange. It is, but it does give that.
+
+[11:38] Showing, showing, foing yeah. It's just no joke. No joke. I mean, have you ever had that uh Brazilian cheese bread? No, I've had Portuguese like corn cheese bread, like broa.
+
+[11:49] No, it's uh blanking out what it's called, but uh it's this it's made with the cassava roots, so tapioca. Oh, yeah, I've had that stuff. And um it's delicious, but it's fried and it's all chewy inside. Yeah, no, that stuff's good. I used to have to, when I was doing uh work on uh puffed stuff, you know, years ago for the blog, I was doing a lot of tapioca doughs and man they're a pain.
+
+[12:09] Especially like they're just like really a pain. They're really pain because you also have to heat them up and then you're working with like galop and then well, so heating up, you bring a good point. So when you're doing um when you're doing a dough that doesn't have any uh gluten in it, I mean one of the things that you know we always used to do is just pre-cook some of the starch because uh you know, when you're working without the gluten, things tend to be kind of like a sandy agglomeration of things. They don't tend to dough up on you. Um they just don't.
+
+[12:36] So like the question is is do you have some precooked in here as well without telling me like how it works, or is it we're able to do it without any pre cooked stuff? No precooked. Because one of the things that was difficult with this process is because uh when we developed the French laundry, you know, French laundry really source from smaller, you know, farmers, um just our resources are more you know, local. And for us to go out to a market and provide nationally, we really need to start uh digging into resources that we could find large volumes for. And so pre pre cooked starches, it's we don't work with that.
+
+[13:14] Yeah, because they're easier to work with, right? They are easier to work with and they're a little more stable, however, the volume of it is just not there. Now I see you have one here called wholesome that says it's dairy-free, uh is a dairy-free product. What do you have in uh in to make up for the dairy in that sucker? So the wholesome flour is actually our first um response back to the public.
+
+[13:36] People are really looking for non GMO. And what we found was it's really in the category, they're missing whole wheat flour. And so this is a solution for the whole wheat flour, nutrient dense performing. Um so no milk powder, but what we did add was ground flax seeds. And so flax seeds, you know, with a little bit more fat, it adds a little texture and also creates that um I guess textural difference in the quick breads and pastries.
+
+[14:03] Right. It does absorb a little bit more water like whole wheat flour does. So oh a flaxseed likes to absorb water. That's that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, flaxseed.
+
+[14:13] Uh I did a well man, I don't even want to get into flaxseed. I mean, presumably it's not like a lot a lot of flaxseed, right? No, but it definitely has its share. So it has equal parts of uh fiber as whole wheat, and then also has uh omega fatty acids contributed by the flax seeds and uh rice bran as well. Did you know that some people like soak and grind up flax seeds and eat that gummy, pulpy stuff on purpose, just like as is.
+
+[14:37] Did you know that? So I was going through a week of like healthy after after uh eating too much and I was gonna grind up some. I was like, ah, I'll just throw in flax seeds into my smoothie. Uh don't ever do any more than uh two tablespoons. No, I mean it's just freaking like it's a freaking gummy nightmare.
+
+[14:54] I mean, it's a it's a natural, yes, yes, fiber, hydrocolloids, it's all great and stuff, which is man. That is some oh man. So now how many how many uh how many flowers do you have in the line now? You have uh So we have the uh cup for cup original line. So it has a pancake waffle, pizza, chocolate brownie, and then our wholesome line, which is actually in stores now at Wayne Sonoma.
+
+[15:18] It is we're gonna look to extend it and release two other products behind it. Okay. Now, you just came last night from uh Del Posto, Mark Ladner is a big f fan of being able to make all of his pastas gluten free. And he uses cup for cup. Which one does he use?
+
+[15:34] The OG? Yes, the OG. Yeah, he uses the OG stuff. Now he actually tasted you out last night on all of all the pastas, right? It was amazing.
+
+[15:41] And I you know, I had heard about Del Posto about a year and a half, and just all of the press they've received with the gluten free pastas. You know, I've I hadn't had a chance to meet Mark and you know, I ran into you guys uh last weekend uh out of you know coincidence. Yeah, by the way, we judged a pie. I think we talked about it we judged a piece we judged we didn't talk about it no no so uh nastasha and I went out to uh UCLA and we were judging a not a pie eating contest a pie making contest right pie making contest two people I should we're not gonna say I'm not gonna say anything positive or negative about the pies because you know just in case nobody just in case well but yeah either like school does like school year's over these these kids they're like freshman sophomores they're not listening to this crap they don't know but like uh so we had to eat like something like twenty two pies and you know 22 pies twenty twenty-two pies you know and you know thankfully like you can have gluten if you if you you know you you happen to have created that like the one kind of gluten free like you know replacement flour but you actually can consume the gluten so we were eating these pies and uh for some reason we didn't like the like the bet like one of the best pie crusts there like I don't know like I was my face was buried in I don't know what the hell happened but you know you had advocated for this I stuck up for them I totally did and I got chewed out but I think it was total you're totally right and then later you were like I can't believe and I was like what what? And then this Nastasha never is gonna freaking let me forget the fact that I let first of all here's what happened.
+
+[17:07] Like okay okay okay okay. So they have this class what's the name of the class at UCLA do you remember? Uh well I I know the event was the food and science but I don't know what the name of the class was. Yeah it's Professor Robot out there she has a class and she teaches it and so you know one of the things she does is she know you're supposed to like learn some science like come up with an experiment and it's based around making apple pie. Right?
+
+[17:29] Which is great. It gets the kids, you know, really excited about making pies. It's the first time diving into it. Yeah, but all of these freaking kids, like not enough salt in the crust. Oh my Jesus.
+
+[17:41] Not enough salt in the crust. People, when you make pie, put salt in the freaking crust. I was like, how much unsalted like crust did you have to eat? Because I think like it's like I think this is the I was yelling at someone else, like all the chefs, we were talking about this before. All the chefs are like, nah, man, use unsalted butter, right?
+
+[17:56] Unsalted butter, mm-hmm. But the problem is is then like people who like maybe like they use a recipe that was was written for salted butter. They don't taste the crust or whatever. It doesn't have any salt in it. I really think someone has to publish an article about how a chef's pinch technically is, I think about a tablespoon.
+
+[18:14] If you if you think about it, and that's why people always, when they say a pinch, they take maybe half a teaspoon and they they throw it in. See, that's the thing. People just need to taste the sun bit the thing and see whether or not like it tastes good. People don't know. Here's another thing.
+
+[18:28] Like uh I you know, as m any of you know, like the I read that book recently, Sugar Salt Fat, and I have some huge issues with that book. Huge issues with that book. Written by Moss, right? Because one of the things is he's like, D do you know that do you know that corporations try to make their food taste good? You know what I mean?
+
+[18:46] I'm like, what? What? And my point is is that especially I think he falls flat in the anti-salt stuff, because you cannot make decent baked goods or decent ice creams without salt. And like people don't know how much salt is in a decent dough. Like when I was growing up, McGee told me there's a there's a famous uh bread book writer who used to cook at one of the schools and was at one of the bakeries out in San Francisco.
+
+[19:12] I forget his name. He came out with a book maybe four years ago. And he says that over the past maybe even twelve to fifteen years, like salt levels have gone up in all of the artisan breads, at least in the West Coast. Because I used to, you know, do like maybe like a percent and a half. People are closer to two percent on bread.
+
+[19:28] Really? Yeah. Dry weight basis. Dryweight based, flower weight basis. You know, and so, you know, I'm still you know, bat back at Weasley one and a half, but you don't need that much in a pie crust, but something, some salt.
+
+[19:38] Well, you have to think about you know, flavors is it's the same thing as com composing music. If you were to only use one note, how flat would that be? But if you add different beats to it, it's really gonna accent like accentuate the sound of it and really focus. And the same thing with flavor. So I actually had a double post, so this great um it was a dried apricot sorbet, and he had he had dusted it with a little salt on top, and it just brightens everything.
+
+[20:04] So you really need that offset flavor to really highlight the dish. Yeah, like unless unless you have salt sensitive hypertension, like salt's your good buddy for flavor. You know what I mean? So anyway, so like they under salted their crust, they undercooked their crust in general, right? They did, but you know, I will have to say it was a really fair stab at everything.
+
+[20:25] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so what happened is this one grandma story. This yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah. I was like, tell the grandma story. So like I rooted for you guys, I just want to let you know.
+
+[20:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's what happens. So this one this one crew was working on uh on the cooking the apples. That was their shtick. The thickness of the apple slice, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:42] Yeah, cooking with calipers was the name of their their shtickamajig there, right? And so they're like, okay. So they um they're like, well, our project wasn't about the crust. So for the crust, I just did grandma's crust. I called my grandma, like a real I asked, is this a real live grandma or is this some sort of bull crap you're trying to tell tell me?
+
+[20:59] He's like, no, this is a real live grandma. And I had the crust. I was like, damn, if that crust ain't good. Like that's a crust I want to eat because they had they had like they had coated the top right, it had a little bit of sugar. They crusted, it was beautiful, like it was cooked all the way through, it was actually flaky, it was like I think that was the only pie I gave a five out of five.
+
+[21:16] When on the chart that we had to say where you were like, would you give this to someone with no like questions asked? I said the pie crust, yes. Yeah, yeah. Those guys got hosed. They got nothing.
+
+[21:27] They got they got rippity doodle. They didn't even they got honorable nothing. They got hosed. Mainly because I was sitting there trying to sift through my freaking papers when it was going on, and like we were confused over who, you know, which team was. I'm sorry, grandma's pie people cooking with calipers.
+
+[21:43] My fault. My fault. My fault. All right. So uh let's go on to a quick question we had last week from a reader about gluten-free.
+
+[21:50] Nigel Olson wrote in, hey Dave and Nastasha, because he didn't know you were gonna be on. Uh I love your show. I've been a listener since day one here in Napier, New Zealand, North Island, East Coast, right by the Pacific Ocean, and I've been an avid follower of your work. Um you guys seem the logical people to ask. Could you help me come up with a gluten uh free uh issue?
+
+[22:07] I guess I mean solution. Solution, right? Not the issue. Yeah, solution. I plan on making perfiderols, cream proof clers, that sort of thing, for sale at our local farmers market.
+
+[22:16] I'd like to have a gluten-free option available, but I'm not sure what flour alternative would have the gluten type strength to sustain the shoe pastry's expansion during baking. Now, shoe pastry is interesting because it's pre-cooked, yes, and so you get to you get to mess around a lot more with stuff with the shoe pastry than you would otherwise, right? Uh are you in New Zealand? No, we're not. But you know what really works with the shoe pastry is if you use a blend of different rice flowers.
+
+[22:39] So you're gonna have to use a blend of brown rice and also white glutinous rice to kind of get that um sticky dough. Um I would say probably the same thing though, like like cook butter and then beat the egg. Blend in your rice flowers. I would probably test around fifty percent of both r white and brown rice and then um and use it as weight with a para shoe pastry uh recipe that's what I would say. And it's gonna be okay.
+
+[23:12] It's not gonna have that weird like look see through rice thing? It will, but you know I'm just thinking off the top my head without going into you know di the the formulation of cup for cup too heavily if if it is just for pastry flour, I have seen rice flour blends work well because you're able to cook it and then it it has enough um of that starch quality will it'll roll into a ball and because there is enough steam it will steam up and you you want that hollow center. So I would say rice flour would be the best but for the easiest, you know you'd have to try it out but I'm sure that I'm sure like people who write into this show they don't want easy. If you're gonna do difficult would your stuff work well in a shoe pastry application? Absolutely.
+
+[23:53] Actually if you look up cup for cup um shoe pastry people have done several different variations of recipes using this. Right. So but your stuff not New Zealand. No sorry no um well anywho so yes it can be done and what and the you know one of the things that you like the benefit the benefits you have is like one of the m more difficult things I'm told about working with uh you know non wheat flours is the is the fact that the doughs don't cook here so well but because you're gonna cook the crap out of it beforehand you win. Yeah I think shoe pastry will be a it's gonna be an easier one to figure out with rice flowers, definitely.
+
+[24:32] What would you add to it to have it not be so ricey? That's the thing. Yeah, you're right. Um, you know, I would definitely add a little bit of cornstarch to give it but more of that filler, you know, but you're gonna need the most of it as the body is gonna be the rice. Now when people are doing the stuff at home, do they they try to add stuff that's got like a little more of that nuttiness, right?
+
+[24:53] But then what do they add? They add like buckwheat or something, but buckwheat doesn't act right, right? No, buckwheat doesn't act right. You know what uh uh I like to do a lot too is to toast the flour. You really are able to taste that that nutty flavor from it.
+
+[25:06] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So dope in a little bit of the corn. He's not gonna need any of this other stuff like tapio.
+
+[25:12] He's not gonna need that stuff. No, just because you're gonna cook the starches and it's gonna be already such a hard like glob, you know, you're gonna you're gonna be able to get that without having to use tapioca, potato, anything else that's gonna cause it to retract. Right. Yeah, potatoes super swell. Uh the now, the the other thing is for the for the rice flowers, can you just get brown rice flour?
+
+[25:35] The so this is the difficult part. Um when it comes to gluten-free flowers or flowers in general, there are so many different variations of one type of brown rice. You know, you could get pre-gelatinized, you can get certain different grains, you know. The the starch structure, you know, from crop to crop, it will change, you know, and so you that's that's what's gonna be really difficult sourcing, you know. And um it's gonna be it's hard for me to say like one specific is gonna be better than the other right now.
+
+[26:06] Right. Well, also like you know, for instance, like not harping on them, but like Bob's Red Mills, uh like like their their rice flour. I think I've had a package of that once, and it feels totally different from the stuff I buy, you know, in Chinatown, which is like a powder. It's almost like rice, it's almost like starch, it's so powdery. Well, what I noticed is so that was one of the flowers that we tested with, um, cuffer cup originally, and the Asian flowers, they go through a different process.
+
+[26:29] So they soak the grains and then they mill it. So that really produces um a definitely a different flour that has a little more moisture content and it performs completely differently. From like American starches, because we don't go through that process here. Yeah, because also like I've had terrible luck with rice, like grinding your own rice, but oh my god, it's horrible. Like it's just you actually do it?
+
+[26:59] I try it, yeah. Look back when I we, you know, back when I, you know, people, you know, whatever. I try anything once. But like grinding that stuff, it's just like it's like little pelatus nightmares. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:09] Like it doesn't, it's not uh I've actually haven't had any good luck milling my own uh wheat flour either. I mean I have a I have a you know a grain mill, but it's I don't really like it very much. And like the really coarse, the really coarse uh like whole wheat, it's like it's like just a killer. Yeah, you need that. I mean, you need that intense equipment to be able to support that grind.
+
+[27:34] Yeah, I mean, um, yeah, I mean, I love whole wheat flour, but I'm not the stuff that I make. No offense to me. No offense to me. Um wait, so Jack is telling me we're already hosed. We're done.
+
+[27:44] We're already hosed? Yep. Oh. Oh man. All right, well, listen.
+
+[27:49] Uh we were pre-taped this week, so I swear, Rob, next week I will talk. Do you like fiddleheads, ferns? Yes. Did you know this is very strange? But so the fiddlehead fern that we eat is ostrich ferns, right?
+
+[28:01] So we don't eat bracken. Although apparently in Asia, many people eat bracken, and people have eaten bracken in in the US for millennia, you know, Native Americans have eaten bra bracket different kind of fern. So that's like, don't care. Uh but like the uh but the fact of the matter is is that you know, bracken has some well known um has some well known carcinogens in it, like the most well known is I can't pronounce it, but it's like taquilicide from something like this, right? And in fact, some people think that this may like the consumption high consumption of bracken fern might be the reason why there is everyone's looking to figure out why more people get esophageal and stomach cancer in Korea, let's say, or it you know, places around there.
+
+[28:40] And uh so a lot of you know, some people have pegged it on like the inordinate amount of kimchi that's consumed. But then some people are like, hey, how about the bracken? Like we all know that bracken c you know has cancer causing agents in it. But I don't think it's that readily eaten that much in high volume where it would affect it. I don't know.
+
+[28:57] Because I I heard it was because like the stomach cancer rate was a lot to do with alcohol consumption. You think? Yeah, because um I think it's the population 80% aren't able to consume uh they don't have the enzyme to break down alcohol, and so they still consume it, and that's also contributing to the high rate. Right. So the pain the the pain about it is right that that that there you get two copies of the gene, right?
+
+[29:19] So like most uh Caucasian stuff folk like myself have two copies of the stuff that you know for the alcohol dehydrogenase and can break down alcohol like nobody's business, right? Then you have like a whole uh you know, a a whole like a Asian consort of people who have no copies, they're the ones that are gonna go bright red when they're drinking, right? And then you have people who have one copy that don't go bright red. This is the research I've read. They don't go bright red, so they consume alcohol, but they're more likely to get damaged, like having cancers and stuff.
+
+[29:50] So it's like that middle ground where you have one copy where it's like dangerville. I wonder if it's the same because also the Irish population also, because it's the dilation of your your capillaries, where that's why you're turning red. But um, I wonder if it affects different cultures as well. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[30:07] But uh I will try to research more of the Bracken stuff, but uh the ostrich fern, strangely, just in the past ten years, people have had these weird food poisonings happen from undercooked fiddleheads, uh real ones, ostrich ferns, but nobody knows why. And so uh the good news, Rob, is is it is that if you were gonna get poisoned, it's not a cancer thing, you would have gotten poisoned within about twelve hours. But uh so you're good. Uh but yeah, you we people do recommend that you cook your fiddleheads uh like overcooked them, in fact, like way overcooked them. But I'm gonna look into it more, and I have a lot more information I can get to you next week on.
+
+[30:42] And uh and unfortunately I thought we would have t uh time to get to get Kenan Grammarcy because he had a chewy crust problem with his pizzas. And we could talk about that because I think you know, one of the issues I think people you know, do you know like when when I was growing up, everyone uh all they worried about with with flour was protein content, right? No one was worried about the the way it was milled, the milling fractions of it, and like how the hydration is affected by how the flour is milled. But anyway, we're gonna have to. So important for uh bread flour.
+
+[31:07] But you know what's a quick solution? Go buy cup for cup pizza. Oh, boom! And with that we'll have to leave it. Cooking issues.
+
+[31:20] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
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+[0:00] From simple to gourmet, nothing's fresher or tastier in recipes than homegrown fine ripened veggies and savory herbs. Do you grow your own? With Bonnie Plants, a kitchen garden at your back door or in containers can produce an amazing harvest for cooking and for sharing. Find how-tos, plans, and more at BonniePlants.com. Your recipes might not change, but your results sure will.
+
+[0:25] Fresh, healthy Bonnie veggies and herbs. Get growing. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwig Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:50] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Ashley coming to you live from a birth 33 in Bushwig Brrrrpled on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, something like that. Guess who we have in the engineering booth with us today, Stas? Joe. Hello. Joe, how you doing?
+
+[1:07] I'm doing great. So it's so filling in for Jack today. Joe coming back for a guest slot in the engineering booth. Turns out we thought that he just hated us, and that's why he left. But turns out maybe that's not the case.
+
+[1:18] Yeah, I'm here to say I'm sorry. That's what I'm here for. Oh nice. How's the the you know Joe's uh Joe's front man for a band Big Ups? How's Big Ups doing?
+
+[1:25] Good, good. That was part of the reason why I was gone. I was on tour for a whole month in Europe, and uh it was great. But uh so now I'm now I'm here. Tours over and I'm I'm back where I started.
+
+[1:36] So hello everyone. Where's the uh where where in Europe did you tour? Um it was UK for a week and then the Netherlands and Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Belgium, yeah, all over the place. Oh, so a couple things. One, were the Dutch as tall as there as everyone says they are.
+
+[1:52] There were a few very tall, slender Dutch men that I met, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they it's one of the things they're known for. That the wooden shoes, the licorice. Yes.
+
+[1:59] Um actually probably the best food also that I ate. Really? Yeah, surprisingly. They actually uh most of the countries we went, they didn't really eat green things at all. So uh so that was good to get some nice fresh vegetables.
+
+[2:17] All right, now when you played in uh in Belgium, did you cover Bedlam in Belgium? No, unfortunately. Yeah, next time. We're going back. So yeah, that's that uh I think uh for all you A C D C fans, I believe Bedlam in Belgium might be what is that?
+
+[2:32] Is that on flick of the switch? What's that on? I don't know. Anyway, it's not one of the better loved or better known AC D C songs, but I love any like anything where, you know, AC D C is like crap on the cops in Bel in Belgium stopping me from playing a show. Yeah, they they wrote a whole song about it.
+
+[2:49] So Bedlam in Belgi and they don't pronounce it Belgium they're like Bedlam in Belgium. Unfortunately we're not allowed to play that for you since we don't play copyrighted material anymore, but for you AC DC fans out there. You know, uh a lot of people give A C D C crap because like a lot of their music sounds the same. I mean, assuming, you know, all right, Bon Scott, the original singer died, and then you got your you know, your Brian Johnson afterwards, right? But aside from that, like we're just like, Whoa, all the music sounds the same, but then you know, Angus, who's you know, you know, uh, you know, their guitarist there, and you know, one of the guys that's been there the whole time, he's like, Well, if it sounded different, it wouldn't be an A C D C song, would it?
+
+[3:25] You know what I mean? Yeah, it's what do you what do you want from A C D C besides A C D C Yeah? I don't want I mean I don't need A C D C to do a Neil Young song or a Neil Diamond song for that matter. Neither of those things needs to happen. A C D C can just be A C D C all the time, and I think that that's uh, you know, that's kind of good enough, don't you think?
+
+[3:44] I agree. Yeah. Uh all right. So uh calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[3:52] Oh, hey, I didn't say hi to Stas yet. Hi. How you doing? Good. What's going on?
+
+[3:55] Nothing. That's a lie. I was just uh doing our expenses and I saw the smoke detector expense. Oh yeah, we had to in order to get insured as a company, even though it's just Stas and I work in there, and really no one cares if we go up in a puff of smoke or not, but uh in order for an insurance company to uh to you know rate us, we had to put uh smoke detectors in our in our space, right? And unfortunately well, fortunately, our ceilings are like what, like twelve feet t tall or something.
+
+[4:22] They're tall, you know. I mean it's typical New York, like, you know, tall storefront kind of situation. And uh so I was like, oh this is gonna end poorly. So I install one downstairs, it has like a three foot ceiling, and then upstairs where you have a twelve foot ceiling, I put one in. And like literally the very I'm not twelve feet tall, by the way.
+
+[4:38] I'm not a slender Dutchman. That's not how it works. But uh so literally the very first thing we tried to cook, right? Like I turned on the Searzol was like ten seconds into putting a sear down on a steak. Weep beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
+
+[4:53] Stas and I're like, yeah, yeah. Cooking detector, freaking cooking detector. So we we smashed it off the ceiling in about two seconds. We put it back on. If an insurance company is listening, we put it back.
+
+[5:02] Yeah. We did. Ish. Ish, ish. I'm telling you, what what needs to happen is uh i there needs to be some we've had this discussion many times on the radio before, but I think one of the main uh one of the things okay, here's why a lot of people don't cook, right?
+
+[5:19] Uh especially apartments here in the city, right? One, uh they don't know, they're busy or they don't know how to cook, right? That's one. Two, they don't know how to shop in a way that makes it effective or easy to cook, right? I guess maybe that's changing with the whole uh you know online delivery stuff.
+
+[5:33] Do you use that stuff? No. Just for parties? No, I don't. I don't use it at all.
+
+[5:37] I thought you used Fresh Direct. No, I don't use it. Yeah, it's like an eight hour window. Like, uh I I buy what I need. I I'm very efficient when I shop time wise.
+
+[5:46] Like I know exactly where all the stuff is in all the markets that I buy. I know like how to, you know. Mm-hmm. Hmm, sh efficient shopping. Anyway, so they don't know how to shop efficiently and cook efficiently.
+
+[5:55] But uh also there's no ventilation really in most in most uh most apartments here, and even most houses, the ventilation is bad, but and and that leads to smoke and that leads to the fact that smoke detectors go off and people freak out about the smoke detectors. They freak out about it, like that the smoke detector's gonna go off. They flip. There has to be some legal way that you can push like a duration button, right? Like a button that says, for the next two hours I'm gonna be awake and cooking.
+
+[6:23] So shut up. You know what I mean? And then it automatically goes back into like full vigilance mode, you know, so that when you're sleeping, you don't burn up in you know in your sleep. You know what I mean? It's gotta be a way.
+
+[6:34] Uh but I was talking about for new things, Mark's Kickstarter, which you can talk about in a minute. Maybe we can get him on next week. Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh hey Nastasha, everybody. Um got a question.
+
+[6:45] Uh this is Drew from Virginia. Um I got a question about um you you talk about adding calcium to uh to like pickles and different things you want to keep crisp. What kind of calcium are you adding? I mean, just calcium chloride or there are other types? Right.
+
+[6:59] So calcium chloride, as you know, tastes bad, but it's the cheapest form of calcium and also the most available form of calcium. So I think a lot depends on on what you're what you're gonna do. So if you're gonna do like uh a calcium uh like a calcium treatment, um you can you can do uh calcium chloride for uh soak it along with let's say an enzyme like Novo Shape, which is the pectin methylesterase, the strengthening enzyme. You could do a soak for you know, like a day or two and then take it out of that, right? Or just add a small amount of chloride.
+
+[7:34] If you want to add more, you can add the calcium lactate gluconate, but you're gonna run into solubility issues, but it has no taste. Whoops. Well, well I'll I'll answer his question, maybe he'll call back. Um so you want to switch to, I mean, most of the time industrially they're using chloride. It's a you know very small, it penetrates quickly like salt.
+
+[7:53] You can leach it back out, which is what they do uh when they, you know, when they're when they're doing those things, they they they set things in a very high solution of calcium or they strengthen things in a very high calcium chloride solution, and then they take it down to a much lower calcium solution for uh maintenance on uh on things. Um so you can add a small amount of calcium that way in form of calcium chloride, but it does taste terrible. Um you can also use pickling lime, calcium and pickling lime is picklin is uh calcium hydroxide. Uh also you want you wanna do what they do with that one is they add a small amount of it. Uh, you know, well, they actually you add excess because it's not very soluble, it's self limiting.
+
+[8:29] You soak the uh the cucumbers in it for a while, and then you rinse it in um in in in fresh water and then put it in fresh water, let it soak, then put it in fresh water again, let it soak, and then put it again probably in fresh water and let it soak to get rid of the excess calcium uh and calcium hydroxide because they turn really if you're just soak uh cucumbers in uh excess calcium hydroxide solution, pickling lime solution for like a day or two, they're just really gross, just really nasty. Remember, did you taste that that time we did that or did you refuse after the look on my face? Because of the look on my face. See I I I believe you should taste everything even if it's bad, just so you know how bad it is. But Stas doesn't play that game.
+
+[9:09] She's like, no, I don't care. I just don't care. I don't care. I don't need to know how bad it tastes. It tastes bad.
+
+[9:13] So uh yeah so anyway so like uh in pickles if you're gonna use uh they add if you're gonna cook something you can add like a chloride because then as you cook it the the uh the actual natural um enzymes the um the uh pectin methylesterase enzymes that are natural in the in the fruit will activate along with the chloride as it warms up so that's that what they do in I don't believe they add extra enzymes to uh tomatoes. I think they just peel them and then can them with a little bit of calcium chloride and that's why tomatoes are so firm in canned tomatoes. That's why they don't break down the way who are we talking to Stas someone who didn't like canned tomatoes because they didn't like the fact that they didn't break down. I don't know. It was someone I forget who it was it was someone who got all bent bent.
+
+[9:55] All bent. Bent. Anyways Oh you're back? Good hey so uh did you hear that? Were you able to hear what I was saying when uh we were talking or no?
+
+[10:03] Well I'm gonna I I'm not I'm not I w I'm not listening live so I'm gonna catch up with it um on the on the archive which is cool. Yeah what I said was uh you know uh i i chloride I'd use chloride if you're gonna put use like an enzyme uh um uh you know additive like uh like a novo shape or something like that or you could use uh pickling lime calcium hydroxide which you would soak it uh for a for a while. Um I think it's there's a bunch of procedures on the web for it. And then you soak it for a little while in that, but then you soak it for a couple of fresh changes of water to leach out the excess um calcium hydroxide, the cal excess calcium. The good thing about calcium hydroxide is that um it's not very soluble and so it releases calcium into the solution as it's being used by the uh as it's being used by the the pickles so it kind of like self-regulates that way and then you just rinse out the rinse off the excess when when you're done.
+
+[10:58] So that's why I think you know pickling lime is fairly easy to work with. But if you're going to switch to uh you know a less crappy tasting calcium like lactate or lactate glucanate you'd obviously you're gonna have to use more of it. Okay. All right. All right um I have one more question if you got time.
+
+[11:14] Sure. Um I've got some uh I I rented my low lard in the fall and this this year was kind of screwy and I and I've got some leaf lard that's in the freezer and it it's not vacuum sealed so I'm kind of wondering whether it might be rancid or not. But I didn't know if the lard rendering process would wouldn't would just remove the rancidity or was is it just done. I mean it's just over. Yeah no it's uh if it's rancid uh it's over unless but well but look it's only going to go rancid where it's in contact with oxygen right so like I don't know how you packed it down.
+
+[11:49] How'd you pack it down? Well I just put it in uh Ziploc bags and I just tried to squeeze as much air out as possible and as I say it's been there since probably middle of December so it's been there for a solid five months. So yeah in the freezer yeah in the freezer yeah so I mean the good news is there's probably in the in the leaf lard there's probably very little moisture uh so and and you got rid of most of the oxygen so there's a good chance that um you know that it's not rancid but obviously the you you'll know when you open the package and and it comes up to temp whether or not it's it's rancid and if you're lucky it's only you know going to be uh have you know i it won't have traveled you know uh a long distance and m what I would do is just trim out if you see that some of it's rancid or you smell that kind of r you know 'cause everyone, you know, if you cook with lard, you know what rancid lard smells like. If you if you if you have like a some of it, I think you're gonna probably be able to trim away because it was in a big frozen block and the air probably didn't get into you know, you squished it down. The air's not gonna get everywhere.
+
+[12:49] You'll be able to trim out the places where the air got to it. And as long as it was fairly low moisture to begin with and you know like there's not a lot of like uh you know trimming stuff on it right 'cause it's leaf. It's not like, you know, it's not trimmings, right? So uh right, so it's meat free, right? Right.
+
+[13:05] Yeah, well i I mean it was the full pieces and then I and then I kinda cut them down. I was gonna process it in the middle of and Christmas got in the way and it just kinda everything got put off. So I just put it in the freezer so it is chopped up so it but but you're you're pretty much saying that if it's rancid I will know it when I smell it. Oh yeah, hell yeah. Yeah.
+
+[13:23] And then you could trim on and you like if you're lucky you can trim off the same way that you know I mean it's it's a in a liquid the whole thing's gonna go rancid, you know, but in a in a solid like that you have a good chance that uh you have a good chance that the it didn't you know travel all the way through it so that you can probably do some localized trimming. But you'll definitely know, you know, it's that cardboardy have that cardboardy rancid you know off. I don't know that I've ever smelled rancid big pork fat or you know so so I mean I'm just not sure but I the way I'm hearing it is I'll know when I smell it. Alright, so you you know how like okay so you know how like uh when you like cook bacon fat, right? And then you and then you pour the bacon fat off and then you keep saving it, but you d you don't use it fast and it sits and it takes on that smell that's not just an overheated smell.
+
+[14:13] It's that extra added smell, that like kind of off kind of cardboard y kind of smell. Like that's the rancidity in it. You know what I mean? Right, okay. And so if you if you you get that sort of or like you know how you know, if you uh corn oil is a real good one to tell rancidity on.
+
+[14:28] You know how when you get like corn oil and you uh and you you use it once and then you pour it back in the bottle and then it sits there and it's only half, you know, full, and then you open it a couple months later and you smell it, it's got that s that smell, that kind of dusty, cardboard y kind of thing. Like that's the rancidity on that. And so uh you know, you're not gonna get, you know, even if there were a bunch of meat stuff in there when it's frozen, it's not gonna go bad on you. It's not gonna go, you know, it's not gonna be and it's not gonna get that funky, it's not gonna get that funky age smell that you get off of like aged fat either. It's gonna it's just gonna be uh, you know, it's either gonna be fresh or it's gonna have that kind of rancid uh, you know, kind of uh aroma and and taste.
+
+[15:10] And you know what you could do also is just take a 'cause it's gonna be a lot easier to tell on a uh 'cause a little bit of rancidity is good on like a cured meat, you know what I mean? Like we're used to it. So I would I would you know trim off anything that obviously looks kind of discolored or messed up and then uh cut off a small piece, render it out, and then the best way I can tell for measuring oil is uh get a piece of not flavorful like white bread and soak up the oil with the white bread liquid, you know, a little bit warm and taste it, and if it tastes fresh, you're good to go. Okay, good. All right, thanks a bunch.
+
+[15:46] Alright, good luck with it. Alright, thanks, Bye. So Stas, Mark uh Mark Lanner just came out with his uh Kickstarter. Kickstarter. Yeah.
+
+[15:54] How's he doing so far? Good. Yeah? Yeah. What's he asking for?
+
+[15:57] He's asking for eighty five and he has 35. Yeah, what does he really want though? Uh 85. Oh come on. I think he wants I think eighty-five is fine.
+
+[16:09] What he really wants is, you know, a lot. But yeah, here's the thing people don't know about the Kickstarter is like when when people do when we do so when you do a Kickstarter, you know, as we know because we did it we and by the way, not for nothing. We're getting close to getting the stuff shipped in. It's gonna be we're very close to getting the Searsols uh on the water. We're gonna give big updates on the Sears all when they actually uh are on the water, uh which should be very, very soon.
+
+[16:33] Um but uh that's not what I was talking about. When you're doing a Kickstarter, you you like the the worst thing to happen is that you don't reach it. So you have to set your goals low enough so that you know you can reach it, right? And it's also like somehow like in terms of the the mentality of it, people really like uh people really like it when you go way over. So you actually like you know, we were trying to choose a number that we thought we could beat rather handily, you know what I mean?
+
+[16:58] Uh but then it's like this weird thing where you won't choose a number so low that people are like, oh they they got already, I don't need to go on. It's like a really weird psychology with Kickstarter. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[17:07] So you want to tell do you want to have him on? How long is the Kickstarter? It's till July fourth or fourth. Does he want to come on and uh do a talk about it? Maybe.
+
+[17:16] But you can see it at Pastafly.com. Pastafly.com. Pastafly. This is the most difficult Kickstarter I've ever seen. What do you mean?
+
+[17:23] Well it's like 'cause it's a concept. Ours was really good because it was a uh thing, you know, like an actual product. And this is so what's it's like content? Well, the concept is gluten free pasta quick served. Like the the like almost truck style, right?
+
+[17:39] Well, yeah, almost truck style. I think. But are they gonna be standalone locations again it will be someday but he's gonna do pop-ups first in colleges around the northeast so gluten free pasta for college kids that is of high quality yeah because his argument is that pasta most pasta sucks right yes yeah yeah and but it's like it has like some old grandma right yes is it the grandma of those of those kids from UCLA that we insulted I hope not. Yes. Yeah well Dave I've well Dave that's my lark voice will Dave up I found the grandma of those pie kids that you insulted.
+
+[18:16] Yeah. But it's not that grandma. No. Is it his grandma? No I think he based it off Cesare's mother so who is a grandma.
+
+[18:24] Who is a grandma, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah so yes fair fair fair. My my grandma not such a good pasta cooker. Okay. What?
+
+[18:33] Is it okay? Yeah. I mean okay. Rob uh Traws wrote in about fiddleheads we're finally getting to it. Uh from Portland not Portland over in uh Beardland, Portland, Maine.
+
+[18:44] Not that you can't grow a beard in Portland, Maine, but it's a different kind and probably it's more although they're both kind of lumberjacky, right? Portland, Maine and Portland uh you know in in Oregon both kind of lumberjacky. Yeah oh speaking of before I get into this question, Rob, I'm getting to your question in a minute. But uh Port when I think of Portland uh Oregon I think uh uh oh by the way Jeffrey Morgenthaler bar out there just came out with a cocktail book you gotta check it out you know Portland. But uh you know Andy Ricker of uh Pacpock who uh you know was before he became also a New York guy Portland guy uh I was just thinking of him because I was thinking of Thailand uh and it came to my attention last week.
+
+[19:23] If you go to the Guardian in UK, Guardian dot UK they did some research. Came to my last uh attention that the largest uh farmed shrimp producer in Thailand who ships all over the world, including to U.S. at like Walmarts and Costco's and you know, all the big box joints like that, and like I think in the UK and like Tesco, all the big places in there, that they um unbelievably use slave labor, literal slave labor. Now they don't directly hire them so that they you know they can't get necessarily caught. But here's how it works.
+
+[19:56] And I was completely shocked. You can go watch an 18-minute video online. And I I didn't even, you know, you think about a lot of stuff when you buy food, you think about sustainability. You like some people think about you know, um, you know, that like whether it's local or not. You know, I remember uh you know Patrick came on saying, don't think about local, local's not important.
+
+[20:15] That's what Patrick Martin was saying uh the other day uh here, uh Martin's. But the uh, you know, people think about that, they think we think about the health, we think about um economics. We tend not to think that our food is made by slaves. You know what I mean? We just tend not to think about you tend not to think that, hey, maybe my food's made by slaves.
+
+[20:33] So what happens is is uh like human uh smugglers, traffickers, uh they go to Burma and they convince people that they're gonna get a job in Thailand because the unemployment in Thailand is very low, right? So, and you know, in Burma not not so low. So they they go, they find people and they're like, hey, we're gonna take you over to Thailand where you're gonna get a good job, right? And they smuggle them into Thailand, and when they get to Thailand, instead of actually giving them a good job. They sell these people to uh ship captains, boat captains, fishing boat captains.
+
+[21:07] And uh what they said in the Guardian was it's like 400 pounds or 450, you know, British pounds. Because British. So like I think I think it was pounds, not dollars, but something like that. So uh a ship captain, this is these are real, this is real, literal, thousands and thousands of people are literally being purchased for like four hundred pounds sterling, right? And then they're on these boats uh and they theoretically have to work until it's paid back.
+
+[21:31] But since they're not paid anything on the boat, they can't ever get it, it never gets paid back. And so they sit there and they are they are treated like slaves in that they are beaten, and if they try to escape, they are beaten and sometimes shot, beat to death, worked uh, you know, every day, seven days, like you know, uh sometimes up to you know 20 hours a day. Uh if they you know uh horrible conditions. They're underfed because they you know they just work them until until basically until they escape or they die. And uh they f they catch trash fish on these boats, and the fish is then uh taken ashore and sold and converted to fish meal, and that fish meal is what's sold to the uh shrimp farms uh and fed to shrimp.
+
+[22:17] So, you know, the the entire industry, the shrimp farming industry is supported on the catch of these trash fish, and a lot of the boats that supply that are uh slave labor. And the and the big the big folks, the you know uh the the the big producer there, I think it's CP, I think I forget, uh, is the doesn't really care one way or the other where the fish meal comes from. So if it comes from you know the sweat of slaves, then so be it. So I encourage all of you to go online, the guardian.uk and look at uh their expose on that. And I did some research, it's not anything completely new.
+
+[22:53] In other words, it's not it's not horse crap, it's real. Like a couple other people have reported on the same thing. Uh and I was just kind of shocked, you know. Kind of shocked uh that that kind of stuff still goes on. Anyway, so uh Dave, we have a caller on the line right now.
+
+[23:08] Okay. Yeah, sure. Caller, you're on the air. Hi. Hey.
+
+[23:14] Um, so hard to follow up on that conversation, but I have a more benign question about uh kitchen ventilation. Okay. As you mentioned earlier. I was wondering I have a about a 90 square foot apartment kitchen. It's separated from the rest of the apartment.
+
+[23:30] Uh and there's a window in it. So the natural ventilation as these things go isn't awful, but obviously it's exit air. It's still a problem. What is is there a cheap solution just to just be getting a exhaust, you know, building an exhaust van and then opening the window and you can intake air when it's operational, or is this sort of system a lot more complicated than you know than just getting an exhaust fan? Okay.
+
+[23:57] So here so I have some experience with this because in my new in my old kitchen, I actually installed an illegal restaurant hood, right? Uh and and piped it directly out of my window. And that worked great because the then in my current kitchen I have uh I j I have a an extremely powerful window fan. Extremely powerful, uh like a huge blower that I have uh you know attached with a register right at my window so that the window, in other words, it looks like a big block is coming out of the top of my window and the window's always a little bit open because the fan is permanently installed there, right? Uh but you can't see it because it looks like Louvers.
+
+[24:33] But it's it's easily twice as powerful as my old as my old fan. Um and quiet. Because when you're when you're buying a fan for ventilation, uh the mistake people make is they get little fans, and little fans spit have to spin very, very quickly to uh get the exhaust flow out. And the faster that a fan spins, the more irritating and loud typically the uh the motor is, right? So you want if you can to figure out a way to get a larger s like a larger fan with uh slower moving um uh blades, and also they like every decent fan is rated on the decibel level, so like they can do a lot of stuff with the geometry of the blades uh to get uh fans that have a lot lower noise rating, and believe me, it's worth spending twice as much on a fan with a lower noise rating because you're gonna be running it for hours and hours and trying to hold normal conversations in the kitchen, and you know, like a bad fan is irritating even like way outside of the kitchen.
+
+[25:33] Then beyond that, you can insulate fans to try and get them, but that's a whole separate thing. So your question was specifically can I just put a window fan in? Here's the issue. Is you where is your stove in relation to the f window? Uh stove is about uh six feet, six, seven feet from the window.
+
+[25:49] Right. So the the issue is is that in a in a hood, you have uh it's a hood over the stuff that's crew that's creating the smoke. Smoke tends to go up, right? And then because the suction is directly over that hood, it tends to gather, suck, and shoot it out the window. So you actually are only evacuating a fairly small amount of space, right?
+
+[26:10] So when you're trying to when you're trying to do a whole room, even if it's contained, you now have to contend with the fact that the you have to evacuate that entire room. So that the capacity, the airflow that you need to get is all of a sudden a lot bigger. So here's how you can help it, right? You can get a fan directly in a window, right? That's going to create some movement away.
+
+[26:31] But the issue is that the smoke is going to go up, and then it's only going to evacuate at the rate that it can evacuate, and then it's going to roll over into the other areas of the house, just because the fan in the window is not sufficient to create an actual movement of air across out of your window. The other problem is that you're going to have is that houses have or apartments have a natural kind of draw to them. So for instance, you need to check to see whether it like like an apartment can either naturally be kind of uh be sucking air out of the hallway or pushing air into the hallway depending on how the airflow in the building works. Also, you know, if you have cross ventilation depending on how the layout of your apartment, you could have cross-ventilation that naturally wants to go one way or naturally wants to go the other way. So you kind of need to figure out what wants to happen in your apartment naturally.
+
+[27:22] So but once you decide to install a window fan, then you need to get air moving out of that window. You need to figure out how to get the best breeze that's floating from the one side of your kitchen towards the window and out. So one way you can do that is install a secondary fan, like a ceiling fan pointed towards uh your vent fan, and that's gonna help create movement such that the entire mass of air wants to move out of your window. Uh or you know, you might be lucky and have a natural draw out of your window, uh your kitchen window anyway, in which case you go into into a different room like the bathroom and open a bunch of windows, anything that's gonna get good cross-ventilation out, and that's gonna assist it out. But it's easy to tell, just make some smoke, open that window, make some smoke and see where it goes, right?
+
+[28:09] And then try to figure out a way to get it just moving out the window in an efficient uh fashion because uh it's harder when you're just putting something in the window versus installing a fake hood. Now you can install a fake hood, and the reason why it's illegal though is because um well, first of all, it's a big pain in the in the butt to do it, but it's illegal because uh uh you know, in a hood, you get a lot of grease going into the hood, and you could have a fire, and they're worried about you ejecting a fire through a vent duct out into the uh into in you know, and that's gonna catch fire, go up and catch the apartment above you on fire. With a window fan, that's not an issue because it there's not a ducting system that they have to worry about. And that's so there's no rules when you have a window fan versus uh a hood. You see what I'm saying?
+
+[28:54] Yeah, yeah. I mean I thought one one other one other thing to consider, and it's you know, it's in favor of the window fan is that it might go stuff like it's one of the apartment really low output gas though. Right. So thinking of getting an induction, you know, one induction burner at least, but that's portable enough that you could place it closer to the window, if not next to the window, and have a shorter path to the exhaust. Does that make sense?
+
+[29:18] Is that you know you could build lock battle cooking or steering on that closer to the X. Do you have 220 in your apartment? No, it's pretty primitive wiring, actually. There's only a couple outlets in the whole mission. Yeah, so uh, you know, even like a decent induction burner that runs off of a standard 120 circuit puts out uh you know enough power to be better than most uh than uh than a crappy home range, right?
+
+[29:46] So yeah, you could win that way having a burner under there. Uh you know, but one thing you could do is, and you could even make it, you know, you know, non permanent if you want, is just uh, you know, put like a, you know, above your window, because you don't want to get rid of light for good, you know, for God's sakes, but you could have like a like almost like a little hood thing over the window that's going to help suck up and out the window. It in other words, yes, cooking right under the window is going to be helpful. And then if you have that fan going there, like uh having like like a bonnet over the top that captures the the the smoke as it goes up and helps funnel the air out the window might also be helpful. You know, otherwise otherwise if it doesn't directly get sucked out by the fan, it'll hit your ceiling and then roll in both directions and then you know down and you're gonna lose some.
+
+[30:29] You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So you could try that and that'd be uh fairly fairly easy. Um you know you're still going to run into problems when you're using the oven as opposed to the the you know the the range. I mean in the fan this sort of fan you're looking at something that an industrial and not a consumer you know what's what is there a best you know place to look for something like this for a apartment window.
+
+[30:55] Well also a lot depends I mean if if it's your only source of light in the kitchen, natural light, you have to always uh you know it's a it's a you don't want to take up too much of the window because then you've taken up a lot of the window. But then if you have to do a lot of rigmarole like install the fan every time you want to use it well then you're never going to use it, right? So what I would say is that um you know the the best uh benefit ratio benefit to losing window ratio might be um I don't know how wide your window is but a lot of times you can fit something like two eight inch fans in and then you just want to get the quietest eight-inch fans that you can. Uh, and sometimes they even make ones that are like double fans, and you'll see them in a lot of uh like restaurants will get them uh and they kind of fake use them as ventilation, you know, like uh you know, especially like down in my neighborhood, like in Chinatown. They make fairly small ones.
+
+[31:47] They're not quiet, but they're kind of industrial, and they're on shock mounts so that they're not vibrating like lunatics, and they're just big enough that they're don't have that irritating jet jet engine noise that like the little hood fans do. Uh you know what I'm talking about? Like they have like they look like almost like the one of those things called those oscillating fans that you have on your desks, like that size fan, but the the two of them are mounted on like uh on like a steel on a like a steel plate, and you mount that steel plate in the top of your window and you kick those suckers on and they move some air. That's it, that seems like the best. I mean, I've I've dealt with you know, I've had like plastic versions of those that are pretty limpy.
+
+[32:26] Yeah. And frankly, it's sort of like there's not it's only with like steering and lock hooking where the smoke is actually a huge problem. So I feel like it's you know, it's not like there's you know, the fire on the whole time than just creating smoke constantly when cooking most things. So it's also that's good, like like in early in like late spring, early summer, like when you just need to get some airflow in the house, you like open the you know, it depends on your apartment, but you open the bathroom window and then you open this guy, turn this on, and you suck the stuff through, and you can get a good breeze through the house. You can build up an airflow if it's getting stagnant.
+
+[33:00] So I use my hood for that sometimes too. Yeah, and it it's it's in the there's a smoke detector outside the kitchen on the other side of the wall, but it seems to be sealed enough that you know the smoke detector never goes off, even if the kitchen is you know completely full of smoke, even though the smoke detector's working. So it seems to be a pretty, you know, it it has good cross ventilation through the bathroom, but it's you know, reasonably here, it's like the rest of the apartment. They're just getting a mild amount of exhaust. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[33:27] If that's the case, then yeah, I mean, uh I would just you want um for sound like for a given uh number of CFMs, uh the smaller the blades that you use to get that level of CFMs, the louder it's gonna be. So it's it but uh the bigger the blade that you use, the more window space you take up. And so that's that's kind of the bargain you're gonna have to drive with yourself. Um you know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[33:51] Well, this is it this is super helpful. All right, alrighty. Good luck with this. And uh and when you when you install it, give us a call back and uh let us know uh how it worked out. Okay, thank cool.
+
+[34:01] Uh okay, Rob, I'm getting back to your question. So, fiddleheads from Portland, Maine, right? And I'm not gonna get lost in a tangent on Thailand and slave shrimp. You ever used listen to a public enemy? No, you said you were gonna get into it too.
+
+[34:14] Yeah. They have a song about slave ships, and it's like shick slave ships. And now all I can think of is slave shrimp. Um that song, the public enemy song is going in my head with with sl uh with uh uh slave shrimp. And then you don't know that song?
+
+[34:29] Tangent fiddlehead. Fiddleheads, oh my god. Joe, you listen to Public Enemy? Oh my god. No, you don't have to.
+
+[34:37] I I do, but that's all I'm gonna say. Thank you, Joe. Maybe later we can get into it. Okay, I'm not gonna get into it. Great album, though.
+
+[34:47] Okay. Uh I was recently up in Portland, Maine at one of my favorite restaurants and was presented with lightly uh pickled fiddleheads as a garnish to my sandwich board of charcuterie. It was awesome. I was always under the impression that fiddleheads were to be cooked for ten minutes. There was no way this little uh violin was cooked for more than two minutes before being shocked.
+
+[35:05] The fern was bright green, crisp, and appeared to be an ostrich fern. Was definitely not a bracken. Is it safe to eat ostrich-filled heads lightly blanched? Does pickling or pH play a role? I would love to be able to eat ostrich fiddleheads blanched or is crisp refrigerator pickle where the fresh flavor and texture predominates.
+
+[35:23] It seems the bracken fern gave the whole lot of fiddleheads some bad press, resulting in overcooked ferns across the board, but there's little information that I could find on the internet. P.S. can't wait for my pair of Sears alls to arrive, regards Rob Trapas. Uh who, by the way, Rob always very good at providing the pronunciation for his name, which I would uh I would not be able to pronounce uh otherwise. There, you know, I try to appreciate because everyone knows that I cannot pronunciate uh uh pronoun pronunciate.
+
+[35:48] Did I just say pronunciate? Okay. So the issue is this uh a lot of ferns when they're coming when fur you know, the a lot of ferns when they're growing, when the uh fronds first uh come out of the ground in the springtime, they are curled up and they look like uh fiddleheads. You like fiddle studs? Mm-hmm.
+
+[36:03] Okay. So uh so the one like the most common fern in the U in the US, and maybe I don't know, around the world, I have no idea, is uh a bracken fern, right? Bracken ferns um have been eaten for since forever. Like Native Americans eat it. They you know it's eaten a lot in Asia, it's eaten all over the world, bracken ferns, right?
+
+[36:24] But bracken ferns contain uh a uh uh poison, and there's uh you know, uh several of them. Uh and the one that they you know is most prominent is called uh taquilicide, right? And so then there's a huge question of, you know, and and different bracken fern populations, and maybe even plant to plant within a given population have wildly different uh amounts of these poisons in them. They are somewhat water soluble, so they leach out. They can actually leach into groundwater.
+
+[36:52] It's well known that animals that feed on bracken ferns um can have problems, you know, pr you know, pretty bad uh problems. Um, you know, uh blood, anemia problems, things like this. I believe it's also carcinogenic, although I'm not sure. So, but you know, there are a lot of people eat it uh all the time, and so there's a lot of question as to whether or not that's a problem. Now, ostrich ferns are different from bracken.
+
+[37:16] So uh the way you can tell an ostrich fern is uh a fiddlehead is that there's a U, there's a deep U-shaped groove in an ostrich fern. So if you think about fiddlehead stars, when you buy them in the store, like if you imagine them in your head, the inside uh curve of it has like a deep U channel in it, right? So you can obviously tell when you get an ostrich fern, because it's like that. Also, ostrich uh fern fiddleheads aren't hairy, and if you're picking them, there's like a little scaly thing of majig over the curly doodle part of the uh of the fiddlehead, right? So it's pretty easy to tell whether you have an ostrich fern or a bracken when you're when you're getting it.
+
+[37:49] Now, for many, many years, no one had problems with ostrich ferns, uh, or at least not that anyone knew of. And then there was a case in uh in in I think it was either upstate New York or or in Canada, where in 1994 of an actual poisoning incident that happened, food poisoning incident that happened with um ostrich ferns. So uh this is from the um from the I believe this is a CDC, yeah. This is a CDC talking about this original 1994, which was the first time I was able to find any records, and everyone points back to 1994 as the first time there's any problem with fiddleheads, and it goes like this. Fiddleheads, cruisers, of the ostrich fern are a seasonal delicacy, we know this already, uh uh harvested commercially in the northeastern United States and coastal provinces in Canada.
+
+[38:39] Although some common ferns may be poisonous or carcinogenic, this species has been considered to be non-toxic. However, in May 1994, outbreaks of food poisoning were associated with eating raw or lightly cooked fiddlehead ferns in New York and Western Canada. This report summarizes the investigation. So what happened is in 1994, a restaurant in Steuben County, New York uh had uh an illness among 20 people who had eaten at the restaurant, and they determined that it was the people who had eaten these lightly cooked fiddleheads. They were, I think, steamed for a couple of minutes or sauteed and then and then sent out.
+
+[39:11] And the vast majority of people that ate these fiddleheads got sick. And peep no one who hadn't eaten the fiddleheads really at the restaurant got got sick at all. So it was pretty clear that it was this. And it wasn't a bacterial problem, right? Uh, and it was very uh like the the on the there's the good news.
+
+[39:30] The onset of the illness was uh fast, very fast, uh, I think within a day, and also it only lasted for a day and and no nobody died, right? Uh then the same thing happened uh in Quebec in 1999 and in Anchorage, Alaska in 2010, right? So what it appears, what everyone seems to say in the literature is there is some sort of um there is some sort of toxin that's being produced uh by some fiddleheads, some ostrich ferns, right? Not all, but they don't know what it is yet. They know that if you cook the hell out of the ostrich fern, that you're not gonna have a problem.
+
+[40:14] If you cook it for 10 minutes, they know you're not gonna have a problem. They have no other way, since they don't know what it is in the ostrich fern that causes this thing, they don't know how to get rid of it, right? Other than by cooking. They don't know how to test for it. They don't know any of this.
+
+[40:28] All they know is that most of the time a raw ostrich fern is not going to hurt you. And then occasionally you'll get a batch of ostrich ferns that if you eat them undercooked lead to a short-lived but nasty case of gastroenteritis, but not, you know, cancer or you know, some sort of like, you know, uh actual poisoning where you where you know you you die or anything like that. So it looks like, you know, uh you're kind of on your own there. Like if you want to eat them raw or lightly cooked or pickled, you probably won't uh have a problem, i.e. you didn't when you had it in Portland, Maine, but you just never know when you're when you're gonna get a batch that might cause uh this kind of an outbreak.
+
+[41:10] And they like I say, it's not as far as they know, it's not bacterial in nature, so you can't like you know uh use some other technique to get rid of bacteria. Uh so it's interesting problem. And if any of you uh I looked at the most that was the most current research I could find was from 2010, and still nobody seems seems to know what the hell's going on with it, so there you have it. Um they're gonna kick us off pretty soon, right? Yep.
+
+[41:34] So do you have uh do you have your email? I had the question from all right, let me get let me get this up. We had a question in uh from uh long time a listener, uh um Ellie Nasser, right? And saying, Hello, Dave and crew. I was hoping you might be able uh to save me some bucks.
+
+[41:50] I would be and I spoke to him on the Twitter a little bit about this, but I figured I'd read it on here. Uh I would be eternally grateful to you and the cooking issues crew, my poly science immersion circulator, the creative series. Which one's creative series? You remember? Is that the original one?
+
+[42:01] Anyway. Stopped heating the water. It's only about a year and a half old. It only has one year warranty, of course. And poly science wants eighty, of course.
+
+[42:09] That's like something your mom would say. One year, of course. And poly science wants, she doesn't talk like that. Uh poly science wants $85 to look at it plus shipping. The circulator powers up, the pump works perfectly, and the icon for heating, which looked like wave, shows up as if it should be heating the water, but the heater is definitely not actually coming on and heating the water.
+
+[42:27] Any ideas of what I could look for to make it work? Maybe a burnt fuse or something, or should I go ahead and ship it and eat the cost? Well, since it he did that. What I said to him was let's open it, look at it, and seeing, you know, see whether or not you see anything loose or broken. Uh he opened it, and what he saw was that there is the wire or that connects to the heater element was kind of fried and gross looking.
+
+[42:47] And so what I said to him, which is true, is that a lot of circulators, I haven't seen this problem on a modern circulator, like you know, when I say modern, like you know, less than like eight, nine years old. But a lot of the old circulators have a lot of mechanical connections in them between wires and things like heaters, right? Where the the wire is crimped around the heater. Here's what happens in a high moisture environment. So if you store your circulator in a very moist or humid environment, or if you if your kitchen is extremely humid, or you run your circulators in a closet, even though there are fans that try to keep moisture and air outside of the inside of the circulator when it's running, you can get a high moisture environment on the inside of the circulator.
+
+[43:26] What happens then is that the metal contacts uh between, let's say the heater and the uh and the and the heater wire. I've seen it happen in fuse connectors where the fuses pop in because that's a physical connection that's not soldered, uh, those things can corrode. When they corrode, they become a resistor, right? And what resistors do when electricity passes through them is they heat up. And so what you can get is very, very, very hot, locally hot uh spots, and they can be hot enough some places to uh I've had them melt fuses, uh, I've had them uh burn through wires eventually, melt, uh, melt uh you know the insulation around it.
+
+[44:04] And so what you need to do in a situation like that is first of all, like take stock of what happened and try to figure out what like why how it got so humid on the inside of a circulator, but you have to cut off the section of the wire where it is uh is is oxidized because that part's ruined. You don't want because it's hard to solder to it if it's completely ruined like that. Cut that part off, strip a new section, take the old end of the heater where it was all burnt and mangled, take a nail file and cover everything else up because the last thing you want to do is get a metal filing dust in the inside of your circulator. You need to completely cover everything so that filings cannot get into your circulator. And you want to take uh a like a nail file and file or sandpaper the end of the heater so it's bright and clean.
+
+[44:47] Then you can get uh soldering iron and solder because that and that part of the heater doesn't get that hot, and you can solder onto the spade terminal, which is on the end of the heater, you can solder the wire onto it and then wrap some electrical tape or a little heat shrink around it and put it down. And once you solder it, it will not corrode because you've now made an actual connection that air cannot get into no matter what happens, and you're good to go. Um so that is how I would solve uh that problem. And on the way out, we had a question from uh at Clef's on the Twitter, and it was let me find you, Cliffs. Uh cooking issues.
+
+[45:25] Have you tried pulling a vac a vacuum on a Vitamix while it is blending? Is it worth it? Interested in reducing oxitation, oxidation, and cavitation. Uh also good because a lot of things that you blend, like hydrocolloids, and this is why I originally did it years ago, is that when you're blending a hydrocolloid, you whip air into it, and then you either have to suck a vacuum on it or do a lot of stuff to get rid of the air that you blended in, right? So, yes, I've tried to suck a vacuum on a Vitapep, and here's why it doesn't work, Clefs.
+
+[45:51] The bearings in a Vitapep are not completely airtight under pressure. They're airtight under normal circumstances. But when you suck a vacuum on it, which is roughly 15 PSI, you suck air and also like whatever nasty crap is in your bearing up through the bottom of the bearing and into the unit. So it's not possible to suck a good vacuum on uh the Vitapep. If you wanted to, you'd have to install a special sealed bearing on the Vitapep bottom or buy what's called a vacuum whip or vacuum mix, I forget vacuum, which is a dental tool that's used to mix and whip plaster for dental molds without introducing any air into it.
+
+[46:28] But unfortunately they're small now, but it's maybe something we can work on. It's something I've always wanted. And that's it for this week. Cooking shoes.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[46:53] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined again with uh Jack. How you doing, Jack? I'm great.
+
+[0:48] Yeah, you're back. Where were you? Where were you on the vacation? Where were we? I vacation.
+
+[0:51] I was I was working. I was performing at Bonroo. Ah, performing, but like for the Heritage Radio or for your band? For my DJ performance collective, we are called full service. So there's full service 16 of us.
+
+[1:05] Are you in fact a full service DJ collective? Yeah. Let me ask you a question, Jack. Now, you know, just based on what you're what you play here, you don't like, you know, spin like wedding hits, right? That's not your own.
+
+[1:16] No, it's not really our gig. Yeah. Okay. But let me ask you a question. Yeah, you can sure.
+
+[1:21] Let me ask you a question. This thing that people do now nowadays at parties where they play like 30 seconds of a song that I really love, and then they throw it into some other song that I may or may not like, but then it's it's only ever like 30 seconds at a time of a song. What what what's with that? What is that? Well, I mean, I guess that's you know, if you're looking for a professional DJ, right, or if someone's making a career as a DJ, you have to do something that sets yourself apart from somebody that might just have Spotify.
+
+[1:49] Because anybody with Spotify could just play a song that everybody knows. Yeah, but to keep up in other words to keep a room grooving, how many of these people, when they're switching this stuff up, keep people's asses pumping the entire time? They don't. They always f flub it. It's always messed.
+
+[2:02] I guess it depends on where you are. And do I really want to hear 30 seconds of hypnotize, or do I want Biggie Smalls to like, you know, bash me all the way through on that thing? Fair point. Yeah. I mean, it's not, you know, I just don't I just don't get it.
+
+[2:14] I just I just don't get it. Like old school DJs, right? They weave stuff in and out, but they're really just kind of like you you lay down a long, a long, long, long track that you can just keep grooving to fundamentally all night, right? And then you can layer tunes in and out of that, but it's not like they're literally playing the tune for 30 seconds and then just doing the crossfade, right? Which is what I feel people are doing now.
+
+[2:35] Or a lot of remixes and stuff. Weak. Alright. Uh so uh I mean, I don't know, do you think it's not weak? Tell me why it's not weak.
+
+[2:43] Why it's not weak? Why would I just describe like 30 seconds of hypnotize and then crossfade into some other song it doesn't even necessarily have the way you're describing that doesn't sound so good. You'd think that these DJs, when they're doing this, would notice everyone's leaving the dance floor. Well, that's your answer. If people are leaving the dance floor, then you're failing.
+
+[3:03] Yeah. Another thing, if any of you are getting married out there, enough with the brown eyed girl. Seriously. Jack, can you dance to brown eye girl at at a wedding? No.
+
+[3:12] I don't really dance at weddings. There you go, DJ. What about you? What have you used to us? I haven't been to a wedding in a while.
+
+[3:17] Yeah, but when you go out dancing, what do you like when they play like those like those songs that are good songs, but they're like you want songs everyone's butt can gyrate to, right? Mm-hmm. And that's pretty much it. Good gyrating beat, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, enough water on the sidelines so people don't die. You can like finger snap to brown eyed girl, I guess.
+
+[3:33] Yeah, but everyone, look, unless you are freaking Fred Astaire, you're not gonna stand around in front of uh, you know, your friends, family, and god forbid someone that you're trying to get in bed with and snap your fingers. Probably not. Yeah. All right. Listen, we have more time later on this, Jack.
+
+[3:48] Do you have uh Chris on the phone? Uh no, we can get him on the phone right now. Yeah, well, I'll read I'll I'll uh talk about the question a bit and then uh while you're getting him on the phone, we'll try to do this here. So uh I got a question, actually it was into the uh into the Twitter, uh by uh Chuck Schneider asking um about a recipe that was published on uh Chef Steps for Mi Kui. You know, partially cooked?
+
+[4:09] Mikwi. You like that word or don't like it says? You don't like it? Why? What does it sound like to you?
+
+[4:14] Anyway, well, I can't. Chris is not on the phone yet. I thought you're gonna talk about it. Well, I mean, he has to hear the question, so I'm not gonna anyway. So it's about Mikwi uh sandwiches, like, you know, partially cooked.
+
+[4:22] And the question I've got Chris on the line. Hey Chris, how you doing? I'm doing well, how are you, Dave? All right, so uh got a question about one of your Chef Step uh recipes. Uh and I'm I'm presuming it's yours because when someone asked a question, you commented.
+
+[4:36] So I'm assuming that means it's probably your recipe. It's for uh the meek yeah, the Mikwi salmon. And the question was from uh Chuck Schneider. It was uh dear folks, I love the flavor texture of this, meaning your recipe, but curious how it compares to both raw or traditional cooked product, safety-wise. Now, uh just for you know, uh, you want to like give me give me like the 30-second like rundown.
+
+[5:03] The the difference between this low temperature salmon and the one that was the ones that are popularized by like the Roka style cooking that was uh you know came into vogue, I don't know, around 2001, 2002, is that this one is uh cooked, well, cooked in quotes. I'm putt making air quotes around the microphone, and then uh refrigerated afterwards, and actually kept, which is non not the way the uh, you know, the early low temp and sous vide jockeys were doing. So, with that in mind, why don't you give us the like 30 second rundown of the recipe? Sure. Well, the important thing to recognize that it's not only cooked or par cooked, but it's also lightly cured with salt, and so you have two factors improving the safety.
+
+[5:42] You've got a bit of salt that in combination with the heating is more effective at uh at uh providing a margin of safety than heat alone. And for uh for various reasons, we actually tested this recipe with an independent food research laboratory where it was challenge tested uh for a two-week period. And we we actually showed that although the the heating temperature alone wouldn't ensure adequate uh uh margins of safety, the combination of the salt and the heat together uh showed that the recipe was actually quite safe against uh the usual pathogens. Um so we feel pretty confident in recommending it. Uh it was only 40 degrees C, though, right?
+
+[6:21] 40 seconds rundown. Sorry? The cooking temperature was only 40 degrees C, right? That's right. 104.
+
+[6:28] Yeah. So 104 fair enough. Like, in fact, for many bacteria, that's so people let's just let's just get this straight straight straight off the top. Chris, uh no, for those of you that don't know, I don't know how the hell you would be listening to this if you don't know who Chris Young is, but Chris Young is uh one of the founders of Chef Steps, and if you haven't gone to that website yet, I recommend you go right away. Or I would wait 35 minutes and then go.
+
+[6:50] Uh the other uh, you know, also uh, you know, uh one of the authors of Modernist Cuisine, the greatest cookbook achievement of all times. And uh and so there's there's a bunch of things when you're when you're doing food safety, and you know, Chris will we'll chime in in a second. Uh and there's a lot of interesting, interesting words about uh how the health departments across the country and nationally handle food safety in modernist cuisine if you haven't had a chance to read those sections yet. Um I especially like the submarine thing. You like that?
+
+[7:20] It's not really food safety, but that submarine thing changed my life. They I we'll talk about it later, because I don't know Chris is limited on time. But someone remind me to talk about the submarine thing if I haven't already. Is that everyone's favorite section of modernist cuisine or not, Chris? With the with the the butt die.
+
+[7:35] Uh uh it's probably not. Maybe yours. Oh, it's definitely one of mine. I mean, like, I mean, that's like crazy. Uh I have to get into it.
+
+[7:43] I'm sorry. So the the thing is is you know how how how mu how much are like uh germs, let's just call them, uh, on people really spread about, you know. And uh this doctor, a naval doctor on board a submarine, gave uh exams to the sailors and then said that he was testing their their their nether regions, their behinds, uh for something, and instead put uh a phosphorescent powder dye uh uh in their butts, and then uh like a day later walked around the submarine with a UV lamp and the entire freaking sub lit up from the phosphorescent stuff. Is it pretty much accurate? Yeah.
+
+[8:21] And I was like I I yeah, I the funny thing is I don't think it's mentioned who that story came from, but the person, the the sailor in question who told uh us that story was the the the renowned Craig Vintner, uh the decoder of the human genome during his time in the Navy. So he's actually the source of that. So so presumably reputable. Uh I think so. Nice.
+
+[8:42] I like that. That's strong. Strong. So you you heard it here first, folks. Okay.
+
+[8:46] Back to back to what we're saying here. So here's some true statements. Uh the the any food safety uh organization in the world, their job isn't to uh figure out the minimum possible thing that's safe from a bacteria or whatever standpoint uh for a particular recipe. Their job is to provide bulletproof uh uh you know guidelines such that no one can mess things up and no one's gonna get food poisoning such. All of the rules are always overkill, 100% of the time.
+
+[9:18] 100% of the time. Um, the uh but here's the here's the thing. There's a little magical thing in the and the two magic words, because I was going to get in an argument with Chris about like you know the levels, blah, blah, blah. He he said the two magic words which which were challenge study. Now, if if you what a challenge study is is you you you actually usually incubate whatever you're going to cook with the pathogen of choice, and then uh you do your procedure to it, and then they test it uh you know with a certain number of uh uh iterations to prove that that the bacteria of interest doesn't grow.
+
+[9:51] And if your procedure does that, then it's safe. Accurate or no? Yep. Yeah. And and so that that that's that's exactly the approach we we took.
+
+[10:01] We were working with a a food retailer who was interested in this recipe, and and so they they funded this, and uh that recipe was actually put put to the test. And and certainly heating alone as a control would fail. And and if you're if your salmon was unsafe, um you would increase the risk slightly. Although, in my opinion, uh you know what we found from that is it's probably not any safer, even if you skip the salting steps than eating than eating most sushi. Um but if you add the salt in combination with heating, and you start out with a reasonable, you know, obviously you shouldn't have a horrible, nasty product, but if you start out with reasonably fresh salmon, you know, something you get it at a typically a reputable supermarket or fishmonger, and the combination of the salt and the low heating, followed by the chilling in refrigeration was adequate to provide an appropriate margin of safety.
+
+[10:52] Now would you would you avoid pre-butchered fillets? Well, uh in general, we prefer, you know, it's always the less processing your ingredients have had, generally speaking, the safer they're they're going to be because there's less opportunity for surface contamination. So it depends on how concerned you are. If you're very, very risk averse, um, then you know, maybe that you know, maybe you you do want to basically have everything as pristine and handled as little as possible. But you know what?
+
+[11:20] I eat salmon sushi in Seattle, and there was a study that said that one out of four pieces of salmon sushi have viable anti saccid worms. So you know, we we all do that pretty regularly. You know, most of the time, you know, we take some risk and it doesn't hurt us. Right, right. But I mean these are really minor risks.
+
+[11:39] Well, so here's the here are the the two bacteria I'm gonna ask you about, because I'm sure these are the ones that people one of the some of the concerned was botulism and listeria, right? So both of those were tested in the challenge? Uh no, we didn't do that because we were gonna have adequate refrigeration. Um and and you were not gonna have so with botulism, you have to undergo undergo spore outgrowth, and and our process does not allow nearly enough time to basically trigger spore uh spore germination and outgrowth. So botulism out.
+
+[12:11] So you so you're saying that the soak and the pack time prior to cook isn't enough to cause any germination? No. No. I mean, the the whole for the whole process is salt the salt the salt the fillets in a brine, you cook you you vacuum seal them and cook them for an hour, and then they're rapidly brought down to refrigeration temperature. So so you're only in the danger zone about forty five minutes to an hour depending on the sizes of your piece of of salmon, maybe an hour and fifteen minutes including the cool down time.
+
+[12:40] Right. That's just not a very long time for for for bacterial growth. Uh now obviously if you load it up with with with with with viable uh botulinum um uh bacteria rather than the spores or if you load it up with uh listeria bacteria but those are fairly fairly rare and they shouldn't have grown too large numbers to begin with. So really what you're gonna be concerned with are are are is fecal contamination in the form of coliforms and salmonella. And you generally want to look at it at salmonella because if you're killing the salmonella, it's a very very good bet that you're you're killing the other uh other potential uh illness causing bacteria.
+
+[13:16] I mean it would seem to me that like salmonella doesn't grow so well in the it seemed to me that salmonella doesn't grow so well in the fridge but like your your hope is that you're not going to get a listeria growth your hope is that you get it rid of enough listeria or that you inhibit its growth with the salt combo enough that it doesn't grow in the fridge because that's the only one that right but but the other reason is is we're we're looking at refrigeration temperatures of two to three degrees Celsius and so provided uh you know provided you you respect that and you provided you only have a two week shelf life um listeria is a a minor concern. I w you know you you can't say that this is going to be a product that's good for for a month or six weeks because now even at refrigerator temperatures listeria would start to become a concern. So you always you have to keep in mind um what time scale are you talking about too. If if you're gonna basically cook it and uh chill it down and serve it within one to two days, right, uh it this just isn't a very risky procedure. If on the other hand you're a retailer and this might be in your your supply chain for for a week, you really want to know you have you have a a larger margin of safety during refrigerated storage.
+
+[14:21] Okay, so also people should label their bags. Everyone should label their bags, but I think people at home don't do it very much. Label your bags and do you recommend an ice chill down or no? I mean, people at home do weird things with their their fridge. For for starters, you know, just realize that you know any almost anybody's home fridge that I've ever seen would be condemned by a health department.
+
+[14:40] Uh uh fair point, Dave? Yeah, fair point. Uh and then the the other side of it is I read a really weird thing. Like something like 25% of the population changes the temperature of their refrigerator uh seasonally based on how warm or cold it is outside. Why would they do that?
+
+[14:57] I have no idea. I like my brain melted a little bit when when when when I when I read that finding for a large appliance manufacturer. And so, you know, this this was a recipe that was you know meant for chefs and meant for enthusiastic home cooks who are going to be knowledgeable about food safety and be reasonable. And so as long as you know you use high quality ingredients, as long as you do salting and cooking for for relatively short amounts of time, and then as long as you chill it down and keep it in a cold refrigerator, as long as you consume it within a week, this is a very, very safe recipe. Okay, so here's here here's what I'm gonna say, because in case people don't look at the recipe right away, your brine percent was ten percent.
+
+[15:36] So stuff's not gonna be growing in that brine during the brining procedure and the brinding procedure done cold, correct? Yes. Okay. Once you take it out, don't let it sit on the counter in the bag, do your cook step and re-chill it uh, you know, lickety splits so that you stay in the in the evil window as shortest time as possible, correct? Yep.
+
+[15:53] And label the bag and keep it in the coldest part of your uh fridge, or you know, if you can, maybe even on like an ice pack in the fridge. Good point or not good point. Uh exactly. Good point. And but challenge study done and proven safe or proven proven does not decrease the safety level of the fish that you started with appreciably.
+
+[16:13] Proven that it ha proven that it was adequately safe at two weeks. Right. Now, people bear in mind that safety levels are done for different uh things. So there's like uh what we're talking about here is something that doesn't appreciably uh add to uh risks as opposed to completely eliminating risks that are R. So don't dip your salmon in poop and do this recipe.
+
+[16:34] That's right. You need a different recipe if you're gonna dip your salmon in poop beforehand. I I don't want to see that recipe. Hey, but that no, but but like all kidding aside, I mean like a lot of the recipes out there, a lot of the the rules out there where they make you hammer everything are done with the with the fact in mind that you might be horribly contaminated with you know, quite literally with poop. Yeah, and and you know, the the funny thing is we we worry about the risk of say a salmon me quee or a rare uh uh uh a piece of chicken that's still slightly pink, but the inconsistency is we all eat salads with foraged ingredients and and you know we've all had grit in our salad.
+
+[17:14] I mean, that's not just dirt, there's other things mixed in there. So one of the one of the things is you really have to, you know, look at a recipe and say, well, what level of risk am I really taking from that? And where we think what we tend to think is risky is cooked, uh, is often not the riskiest thing we do. Yeah, yeah. Do you have to uh high tail it or can I uh bring up another thing with you real quick?
+
+[17:36] Yeah, I've got a few minutes, so go ahead. All right. So uh I had another question in. Uh this is from uh John Riper in Seattle, and he's actually got another question. I'll take later that uh Chris doesn't need to stay on for but uh I saw also I don't know who's over there is doing it but I know you've done a lot of work with uh cheese and he had a question about his cheese curds.
+
+[17:53] Uh he said the sources I've seen uh for cheese you know cheese curds and cheese uh all use calcium chloride when they want to fortify the calcium levels of milk for firmer curds presume by the way people what happens is is uh during uh the uh pasteurizing and storage process of uh milk that you buy in the store you know um some of the calcium is rendered no longer available you need the calcium there for the binding of the you know it's a it's a it's a uh divalent uh cation you need it there to bind the uh curds together if it's not there you won't get a firm curd and so people add sometimes calcium if they're gonna use store bought milk uh to uh increase the firmness of their curds and his question is why are aren't they using calcium lactate or calcium gluconate is there a good reason or is it just price almost certainly just price in that you're adding very small concentrations so that you don't tend to notice the slight bitterness. Right I mean even I who hate uh calcium chloride I mean the recipes I saw they're using like a hundredth of a percent you know something t tiny so no one's gonna taste that no you know and then you know that that's that's such a minor level of bitterness that uh um you know even super tasters who are people who are hypersensitive to to bitter um I would be surprised if they're really picking up any substantial uh bitterness from that and then the other thing uh yeah so that's that's my opinion is I think it's mostly just the price and convenience factor calcium lactate on a commercial scale is just a lot more expensive than uh calcium uh chloride and and it's also less readily available. Right. So point oh one percent. I mean, I'm that's actually that's gotta be too low.
+
+[19:25] That's a tenth of a gram in a liter. Right? Yeah. That's a tenth of a gram in a liter. So the the one of the things to recognize is you're really just fortifying.
+
+[19:38] Yeah. I would and I would say that that is almost an order of magnitude below the taste threshold. I I would suspect that's pretty near or below. I haven't actually seen uh uh uh any studies on what the threshold is. I mean I'm just saying bitterness.
+
+[20:03] Uh apparent. You're doing ten times less than that. You're doing a gram into ten liters of of first of all, not water, of milk. And a lot of the whey, which is gonna have a lot of that stuff is going to be expelled as well. So you're not going to I mean the calcium's gonna be bound up in the free calcium chloride, a lot of it will be expelled.
+
+[20:23] I mean, uh non-tastable. And another reason to use it is that it you ha can use a lot less than you use of the other ones, and it is extremely soluble, so you don't have any issues where you might have uh I don't know, some piece of grit left over that didn't get dissolved because you didn't agitate it enough and it got strained out or some sort of nightmare situation like that. So I would just stick with the calcium chloride. Uh easier to, you know, easier to purchase, cheaper, and definitely not gonna taste it at that at that level. Right?
+
+[20:51] Okay. Oh, yeah, quite hold on. Can we have them both on? Yeah. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[20:59] Maybe not. Hey there. Hey. Hey Dennis, it's uh Colin down in DC. How you doing?
+
+[21:04] Doing all right. How's it live? Hi, Colin. Uh I don't know if you know this, Colin, whether you're listening, but Chris Young's also on the air with us. So it sounds like uh the last guy was asking something about calcium, but I just had a uh was making some caramelized onions, and you know, I've seen people, you know, uh tendu asalt and uh chymos, all those folks are into using a little baking soda to kind of help it along because of the basicity of it, you know, speeds up the browning.
+
+[21:37] Right. But also, you know, the I tried that and wasn't very impressed because it does make it really mushy because of the it breaks down the pectin, right? Uh but I guess the thinking helps helps. Uh yeah. If you use calcium hydroxide, would that give you the enhanced browning but also keep the pectin firm?
+
+[21:58] Well you're not gonna brow the calcium hydroxide is not so soluble, so you don't want to use it as your yeah, you like you don't want to use it for that application. No. Yeah, okay. But alkaline conditions also speed the the the dissolving of the cell wall. So it really doesn't matter what salt you use to raise the pH, whether you use calcium, whether you use baking soda or calcium hydroxide.
+
+[22:30] But calculation calcium in the the interesting thing about calcium hydroxide, and I have done tests on this, but not with browning because they were done aqueous. Yeah, I see. So using the calcium ions to try to cross link the the the cell the the pectin in the cell wall. Yeah, that works, but but it won't work for your application because calcium hydroxide, you d what you would need to do is a pre-soak in a calcium bath, get the calcium into the vegetables, then lower the pH for the browning. You see what I'm saying?
+
+[22:58] See what I'm saying, Chris? Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay, so so so you basically do what uh what ticklers often do where they they infuse uh some calcium salts to keep to keep the pickles crunchier after after retorting.
+
+[23:11] Sure, yeah. Or pressure canning. Right. So you can, for instance, you can do you can do the calcium uh yeah, the you know, you can do the calcium hydroxide in a boil a little bit to do to to prevent uh to prevent the browning of broccoli, let's say, and still keep it crunchy. Mm-hmm.
+
+[23:31] Yeah, yeah. I mean it's we've used it to a lot of other beneficial applications. It just seemed like a place where, you know, it has the it had the hydroxide and it had the calcium all in one spot. Right, but if you if you're just curious if it would kind of kill two birds of one stone, but it wouldn't it would not it would not do the browning kind of stuff that you would get out of like the uh what was it you guys did in the modernist cuisine? Was that butternut squash that you added to the pressure cooker or was it uh uh uh can the the the we did it with certain squash, we do it with banana.
+
+[24:01] We we did it to just about anything we could we could catch. Yeah. But remember they're pressure cooking, so they're gonna make it soft. I don't know that even cross-linked pectin. I mean, look, look at look at uh canned tomatoes.
+
+[24:12] They keep their structure and they've been canned. So it is possible to use calcium to cross link the pectin to keep it uh somewhat intact at retort retort temps. But that's that's a good point, Dave. Yeah, two parts, two part process, or let's go back to the thing we were just talking about, Chris, uh the calcium a little bit of calcium chloride, because I don't think it's gonna take much. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:35] Yeah, I and you uh again I think uh in in with the complex sort of uh mired flavors, I don't think bitterness. I mean you have other things that are gonna be slightly bitter too so I I think that'll just fit the flavor profile so yeah maybe maybe taking your onion slices and and if you have a chamber sealer just do a do a vacuum infusion of of of some uh some calcium water. Yeah hard water. Yeah. Uh and on one last note uh similarly so you know calcium's your divalent ions at least like will crosslink some different uh different types of stuff we use and have you seen that uh with guar gum much do you see much of a effect of calcium and other stuff in the viscosity?
+
+[25:24] I've never seen any I've never seen any uh any ion interactivity with guar. Have you Chris? I mean it's not no and I and I haven't worked with guar as much as I have locus bean gum but no I'm not I I'm I'm just trying to think this too and I don't I wouldn't expect much. I mean lo locus bean gum and guarante I I was kind of curious since uh you know I do a lot of like energy research and what I was looking at you know uh just water water impacts of hydraulic fracturing and of course you use tons of guar gum there and one of their problems in reusing the water is that you know you get an effect of all these geological salts like calcium chlorides and everything that's underground causing stuff in their fluids to crosslink and get thicker and get all messed up. Well don't they use it sound familiar from kitchen stuff, but right.
+
+[26:19] Don't they in fracking fracking isn't it borated? Don't they put use boron? Yeah, boron as well. But uh, you know, it seems like like blonde, zirconium, those those are things will add, but that's not present in a large amount in the geological formations. Whereas the calcium, there's tons of it.
+
+[26:40] So that'll actually end up in uh, you know, it can be like uh, you know, ten percent salinity just of calcium salts in some cases. Right. I mean, I was kind of curious. I won't say I remember it back on to the calcium levels that high. Yeah.
+
+[26:57] I mean, I don't know. I'll look it up. It's interesting to me. Uh I don't know that much about fracking. I know that guar is used because you can rapidly shift the viscosity of it.
+
+[27:04] That's the gimmic, that's the gig, right? I don't know uh how that happens, but I know that whenever you use guar, uh we use guar as a thickener and we ignore calcium and I use guar in dairy and non- Although you know what's interesting. So like no one of my old recipes was uh guar gelan, low acyl gel an mix, and there's definitely a synergy between uh loacyl gelan and guar that doesn't exist with locust being gum. I don't but I was only doing that in a milk-based system and I never tried it in a non-dairy system. So maybe there is some sort of weak calcium uh reactivity that just I've never been a aware of.
+
+[27:39] I can look it up, but it's not my memory. I'll go check the uh handbook of Hydro College, the uh Nusovich Classic, unless there's some newer book I need to look at, but I'll check it out. Okay, well great. Thanks for thanks for silling a bunch of stuff. All right, thank you.
+
+[27:52] Cool. Thanks. Dave. Uh yeah, Chris. For having me on.
+
+[27:56] I I do need to run now. All right, cool. Thanks, Chris. And uh, you know, hopefully uh this is this is good. This is a good part about knowing people is that when someone asks a question that relates to them, we can just call them.
+
+[28:04] Yeah. Always appreciate it. Good to talk to you. Alright, thanks, Chris, and we'll take a break and come back with more cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market.
+
+[28:26] Seeing a need to help people sort through all the misinformation about healthy eating, Whole Foods Market added a seventh core value to promote the health of our stakeholders through healthy eating education. In our stores, we give you the tools you need for choosing the most nutritious foods and healthy recipes, as well as offering classes with nutritionists and cooking coaches to help inspire good health and well-being. Stop by your local store today and learn more about our Health Starts Here program and wellness clubs, or online at Wholefoodsmarket.com slash health starts here. And oh welcome back to Cooking Issues. That was fun, right?
+
+[29:09] Having Chris on the phone. Yeah. Yeah. Call her. By the way.
+
+[29:12] Stas, what did you think of that? What? What, Jack? What'd you think of the phone, the phone and phone? Two phoners at the same time.
+
+[29:19] It's hard because they can't see each other. You know what I mean? I'm not answering that, Jack. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[29:23] She's not answering that because she didn't even hear the question. No, no, no. People, people, she didn't even have her headphones on. No, no. Like that's how important her text session was.
+
+[29:31] That she didn't even have her headphones on. Alright, let's uh Yeah. I had a quick, like fun little summer question for you. All right. Roasting marshmallows.
+
+[29:40] Yes. What's your technique? I use a Searzel. Come on, though. But I mean, yeah, come on.
+
+[29:47] Yes. No campfire technique. Uh well, look, here's my feeling on marshmallows. There are there are a couple schools of thought. I can think of three.
+
+[29:56] There's the I don't give a crap school of thought, right? In which case they just do it. And then there's on the either end, there's the lightly toasted, puffed, golden brown marshmallow lovers, right? And then there's the burnt crust, gooey inside like charcoal kind of lovers. Which one are you?
+
+[30:14] Uh I I I don't know. I'd say probably the first. Yeah. But you know, it's nice to kind of give it a quick zap in there and then you just kind of peel off that burned layer. Yeah.
+
+[30:22] And then you can kind of go again. You know? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Stasza, do you do you are you are you one of those freaks that doesn't like toasted marshmallows?
+
+[30:29] I do. Okay. What do you which which kind do you like? We just did it on a campfire last week. That's not what I'm asking.
+
+[30:35] I said between the two things that you weren't listening to that I was talking about, which one do you prefer? Um I don't know. Do you prefer it lightly toasted or do you prefer a char? Both. I think it's a lot of things.
+
+[30:47] Do you see people? People, do you see? Do you see what I'm dealing with? There's no wrong. There's no wrong.
+
+[30:52] It's a chit choice. So the uh I think it's d the difficulty with the lightly toasted one is that um a lot of times when you're doing it that way, you don't get like a gooey enough inside. Now, some people might want the inside to be totally raw to have that kind of chew to it, but I think that often when people do that, they're gonna under they're gonna under do the inside. So to do that one really right, it takes more patience than most of us can muster because you have to hold it fairly high above the flame. You have to rotate it constantly and make sure that you don't have any one section too, you know, too burnt.
+
+[31:25] Um, and just who has that kind of patience, especially if you're using a four edge stick that's a pain to turn around, you know what I mean? I was cheating. I kind of I put a stick in the ground uh over the weekend and just kind of kept it sort of close to the fire and kept it there for like 15 minutes, so it really slowly cooked. And how was it? It was great.
+
+[31:42] See, that's the thing. I think that's probably a good that's a good technique. It just who has that kind of you know, that's that's more patience than I can move. If I want a s'more or a toasted marshmallow, I want that sucker like now. Enter the search all.
+
+[31:53] Enter the Searzol. Although you still have to be careful with the Searsol because uh although it does it quickly and it's more even, you can still, you know, uh very quickly set the outside of a marshmallow on fire. Because you know, the thing with the marshmallow is it's dry. There's not a lot uh a lot of water there. So once it starts going brown, it can then go black and then ignite fairly quickly.
+
+[32:10] So you have to, you know, you have to be you have to, you know, be gentle with it. So it's like it's either either you risk the burn or you take your time. Those those are the two choices. I like them charcoaled, to be honest. Although I like a toasted one every now and again, but I don't know, I love that outside kind of charcoal overcooked action too.
+
+[32:30] You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right. So John Riper's other question, which I'll get before I get to the other question.
+
+[32:36] By the way, uh, should you have any questions in the next couple of minutes? Call them 2718497-2128. That's 7184972128. Oh, yeah, Jack, your question. I think it's tough with two people on the phone because they can't see when the other one's gonna talk.
+
+[32:48] Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[32:51] Uh Jack's set uh John's uh separate uh second question. What are your thoughts on equipment to create a cheese aging environment at home? Wine cooling units seem to have good temperature control, but they don't cu control humidity or aim for a uh lower relative humidity than or they aim for a lower relative humidity than cheeses need. Is DIY the only way to go, or is there a V ISA meaning spending money from your credit card? Alternative, John Riper in Seattle.
+
+[33:15] Well, okay. Uh actually, you know what I've gotten a lot of questions on recently is this uh I have Jesus, I can't remember the name. It's called the steak locker. Have you been getting questions about this recently? Have you been seeing Mark been asking you about this?
+
+[33:25] It's like a Kickstarter thing, it's available right now where it's um it's kind of like a wine cooler, but it's it's tweaked out for uh dry aging stakes, so it's got humidity and temperature control for dry aging stakes, and like you know, a light bulb so you can see what's on, you can put a salt slab in there if that's your jammy. Uh anyways. So uh that's got temperature and humidity control. However, it uh it's gonna be putting it at a lower relative humidity than you want. So that's probably not gonna work for you.
+
+[33:52] Here's what you're gonna want to do. You're gonna want to go uh the only one I could that I know of offhand, and I've never used it, so I don't um I don't really know how awesome it is, but the only kind of semi-off the shelf, so that it's not a hundred percent DIY, but it's not a hundred percent, you know, like plug and play. Uh Aubur Instruments, who uh you know is a leader in incredibly cheap uh temperature control stuff, uh has the TH210 temperature and humidity controller for curing fridge uh and high relative humidity, right? So that's the key that it can do high relative humidity. And that's a hundred and ninety a hundred and nineteen bucks from uh Albur Instruments, and you just set your fridge on coldest, plug the fridge into the temperature plug on this thing, and then uh whatever you're gonna use to control the humidity.
+
+[34:35] So, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily recommend like a pan with a small heater to increase the humidity in the in the fridge, but you or you could get a small humidifier that sits in the fridge, uh, presuming that the fridge maintains a relative lower relative humidity than you need, and then you just plug those two things in, set it, and you can walk away and it should work. So you buy a fridge or you know, a working fridge, one of these units for 119 bucks, and some form of uh humidifier that you like and plug it in and go. Yeah? Yeah, all right. Um now we had a question in that uh we missed before.
+
+[35:09] Tom Fisher writes, where's he where does he live anyway? Do you know? Do you remember? Shoot, I don't remember where he lives. See if we can find it.
+
+[35:15] Dear Dave and Nastasha and Jack. I have a logistics problem. I've fallen in love with hot lobster rolls. Hot lobster roll sounds uh like vaguely kind of uh vaguely kind of dirty, right? Hot lobster roll.
+
+[35:26] Doesn't it sound like some sort of like I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I like them. I like they're delicious, but something sounds like hot hot and roll, it's hot and roll together, I think, right? Anyway, uh, and I'd like to make them at home. The problem is the lobster meat.
+
+[35:39] It seems it seems way too expensive in both time and dollars to buy live lobster just to steam them to get the meat. Frozen lobster meat would work, but the affordable sources only have it in two-pound packages. I need single serving sizes of four to eight ounces, and I don't want to resort to canned lobster. Any ideas? Uh okay.
+
+[35:58] Well, I mean, look, uh, in a lobster roll, it probably doesn't make uh much difference. The only frozen lobster experience I've ever had was with uh Whole Foods. Uh one day I had to do a low temperature uh demonstration, and I went to Whole Foods to buy lobster, not knowing that they somehow think that it's inhumane for you to kill a lobster at home, but it is humane to have some dude in a factory in Canada kill the crap out of the lobster and then freeze it for you. Does that make any damn sense to you, Stas? Makes no damn sense, right?
+
+[36:28] What are Canadians inherently less cruel as people towards lobsters than Americans? I don't know. Jack, do you have any thoughts on the relative cruelty of Canadian lobster killers and Americans? I think it's even. Even Steven, right?
+
+[36:38] Yeah. Yeah. And I would bet that in a commercial environment, like I don't know, I bet it's even rougher. At home, you know, people are like, oh, sorry, buddy, you know, and they throw it into the pot. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[36:49] It is true that commercially uh they use uh high pressure when they're doing uh steam, so it probably maybe kills them a little bit faster. I don't know. But I've already done plenty of work on lobster killing, so I'm not gonna talk about it now. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get into it because I don't have time. But uh here's what I would say.
+
+[36:59] If if you can buy a two-pound block of lobster meat that you like. By the way, also, if you train yourself in ripping a lobster apart, there's almost no time in breaking a lobster down. Like, I I remember I was uh uh Bobby Flay opened this place called Bar American. I don't know if it's still open, like a million years ago, right? I went to the opening party and they had this giant lobster out there, and it was crowded, so crowded.
+
+[37:26] And uh, you know, for anyone that's grown up on the Cape or grown up around the Cape or on the East Coast and like eating a lot of lobster, I mean, we know how to break lobsters down fast. You know what I'm saying? Now it's true. If you want to get 100% yield out of a lobster, you gotta rip it open, like break open the bodies, get this, get the meat out, but in a small lobster, that's not such a big thing anyway. And getting the meat out of the claws is a little bit of a little bit of a hassle sometimes.
+
+[37:46] But the guy goes, I say, uh, you know, they didn't have enough horse dervis because they had more people than they thought, right? So they had that, you know how like when they're opening a restaurant, they have like the raw bar out that no one's really eating off of, it's just there for display. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? You've seen that a million times, right? So they had this like big old lobster, like a three-pounder or something there, or you know, a two and a half, three-pounder something, you know, medium size for for you know, for people who get really big lobsters, but big for you know being served on a plate.
+
+[38:11] And I say to the guy, uh, you know, one of the, I was like, hey, uh, can I eat that? He goes, if you can get the meat out. I was like, I literally, as soon as he said, if you can get the meat out, within within maybe 10 seconds, I had the tail meat completely out of the lobster and I was eating it. And the guy had that, what the look on his face, because anyone that's grown up eating lobster knows how to get the tail out of a lobster with no equipment and like almost instantly, you know? You know how to do it, right, size, you know how to break a lobster.
+
+[38:40] I mean you go to Rhode Island enough. Anyways. My point being that uh you can get the the majority of the lobster meat out in well under a minute. Now it's then it it's it's minutes and minutes if you want to get the rest. The advantage then is if you want to make like a like uh if you want to use the bodies and the insides to make some sort of a soup or stock, you can and then freeze that out.
+
+[39:01] But if you don't want, if you want to buy the frozen meat, fine. Let's talk about the frozen meat. Which I can't vouch for the texture of it, but in a lobster roll, it'll probably be okay. The texture of this stuff I got at Whole Foods, maybe if I had uh done a high temp traditional cook, it would have been okay, but low temp, it just fell apart on me. I couldn't get it to work right.
+
+[39:16] Anywho, uh, I would go and purchase a uh a meat or a brand either a brand new stainless steel hacksaw or a uh meat uh uh you know saw and uh have it around anyway. It's gonna be useful for hams and whatnot. And then you can just saw the uh get really cold, get everything really cold, and saw the two-pound block of meat into portions, and then uh either uh ziplock and get rid of the air, or better yet, vacuum pack the individual portions in the fridge, and then when it comes time to to cook them, just throw the individual servings of meat into uh into you know water inside the bag, they'll thaw out fairly quickly, and then you can uh cook as uh desired uh and make into a lobster roll. What do you think? Sounds good.
+
+[40:01] Yeah, yeah. Stas is like, sounds good. I eat, don't care. I eat don't care. Uh okay.
+
+[40:06] Now, we got some more questions. Um I had it takes me longer to get in my iPad now that I had to change the password because my kids figured it out. Don't you hate that? You don't hate that, you don't know you don't know what I'm talking about. But like the kids, they they break into your into your iPad all the time and play stupid games that rot their mind, etc.
+
+[40:21] etc. Anyway. Um, um okay. Wyatt Burns from Brooklyn, New York. Brooklyn, writes in, hey, a Jack, Dave, and Nastasha.
+
+[40:29] I currently make seltzer in my apartment with the liter soda bottle technique. So that's using a liter soda bottle, a 25 or 10 pound CO2 tank, and a carbonator cap. We go through it pretty quickly in the summer, so I'd like to upgrade to a carbonator system. I listened to the episode where you explain your home system, and I would like to implement something similar, but I have a few questions. Okay.
+
+[40:50] So we're talking about uh people's is instead of having a system where you have to constantly make seltzer like a chump, so that would be either the bottle system or soda stream or similar, right? Which is like well, well above the super chump, which is going to the store and buying seltzer, which is if you live in New York City and you have our awesome tap water, you know, and you buy case after case of seltzer, you're pretty much a chump. Am I right? Chump. Yeah, okay, okay.
+
+[41:17] Um you said you have a McCann carbonator, but which model would be appropriate for our light non-industrial use? Would the big bat big Mac be fine or overkill? Also, how loud are these things and do they run constantly or only when seltzer is being dispensed? Okay, so so when you're when you're buy buying a uh a professional carbonator, people, uh what what you have is you have a little rotary vane uh pump. It's the same pump that similar pump, same company, uh Procon, that's used in uh commercial espresso machines, right?
+
+[41:48] And uh they what because what happens is is the carbonator is a tank, it's fundamentally a tank. Uh and the tank is hooked up to high pressure CO2. Now remember, you're carbonating water in a carbonator at like a hundred psi. And the reason is is that you're doing it at root with room temperature water, and so you need a much higher pressure than you would use if you were going to carbonate in a bottle, let's say, right? Okay.
+
+[42:10] So uh so here you have you have a high pressure tank, and your water, even if you have a very high pressure water system, uh, which some people in the city do, depending on kind of how high their building is and where they are in the building, you're still not going to really top out much higher than like 60 psi. So what you need is you need a motor that can uh pump rather that can force under pressure the water through and into that tank, and it sprays the water into the CO2 tank so that it carbonates instantly. Then you have a hose that comes off uh and you dispense. You need a good dispenser for it, really good dispenser. That people always chinse on the dispenser, and that's where they ruin their seltzer of the chumps.
+
+[42:46] There's also a very there's a special way to uh to hook up a carbonator for the first time to get it to work. And if you know if anyone buys one and they want me to come on and tell them how to hook it up, I'll I'll tell them how to hook it up on the air. It's not difficult, but it'll take a couple minutes, longer than I have right now. Okay. So the the choices you had, the motors are all the same, and you already have the tank.
+
+[43:05] So the difference in carbonators is the size of the reservoir that the seltzer is in. And I would get the big Mac because it's gonna turn on less. Uh and you know that that's what I use. I used to have a smaller one and it just turned on a lot more often. So I would just get the big Mac because if you're gonna have a dinner party and someone's gonna pull a picture of seltzer out of it, then you're gonna wish you had the Big Mac.
+
+[43:23] Just saying, go for the Big Mac. Okay. Um, how loud are they and do they run constantly? They don't run constantly. They what they there's a little uh a float, like in a toilet, but not with toilet water.
+
+[43:35] There's a float that uh judges when the water is below a certain level, uh, and when that happens, it kicks on, it fills it uh up, you know, to its final fill level and then turns off. So I'd say that you know it cycles on every gallon or so of seltzer that you pull. Like every like something like three quarters or a gallon, somewhere in that in that range. Uh and how loud are they? How loud they are depends entirely on the rate of water flow into the carbonator.
+
+[43:59] So you need to filter the water that goes into the carbonator. Even New York City tap water, which is famously you know uh clean tasting and good a lot of times some there there can be chlorine in if they if they have an upstream problem with uh something they'll dose chlorine into the water and that makes seltzer taste like poison so you gotta get rid of that. Also your pipes uh sometimes like throw sediment and other things into the water that can affect because even minor taste defects in in in tap water uh get incredibly magnified by um by uh cells the seltzer making process so you need a filter the problem is is that most filters when you when people when they hook them up they hook them up with a really crappy water supply line such that they use some sort of three eighths flex cable into the filter instead of like a half inch uh you know full water sub copper water supply line and what happens there is is that when the seltzer is trying to pump in it chokes up and when it chokes up you get a very small flow of water through your filter. So you actually want the coarsest filter you can that has the you know the the uh that that provides the the taste that you want. So you don't want like a super heavy duty like remove cyst removes lead.
+
+[45:12] You just want an odor and taste and chlorine removing filter. Alright so it chokes up and once it chokes up it starts cavitating. When it cavitates it gets really really really loud and then when it comes you'll know when it's time to change your filter because all of a sudden your carbonator will get really really loud. When you have a fresh filter it's fairly quiet if you keep it under the counter and keep the door closed in the cabinet that it's in. Um another caveat when you install a new system, there's flux and crap in the uh in the uh in your copper lines uh from the soldering and just residue and stuff, you want to put that stuff through a filter.
+
+[45:47] You don't want that getting into your carbonator because then the c water is gonna taste like poison for a while. And also your first filter is gonna clog within like a week or less. And don't worry about it. Just the second filter you have in there is gonna last uh a lot lot longer. So, anyway, there you go.
+
+[46:01] Uh two, I don't have an ice maker and really don't want to use the traditional ice chest for the cold plate. Shit, you're telling me, man. I did that for 10 years. I had a uh an ice bucket with my cold plate in it and I had to fill it every day with ice, but you know, it's a hassle. It's it's a hassle.
+
+[46:13] But I did it for 10 years. Are there any other techniques for chilling a water line that don't require ice? I'm considering modding a cheap mini freezer to directly chill a water bath that the cold plate is submerged in, but maybe I'm overthinking this. That won't work so well. Um you need ice because what's happening is is it's the actual melting of the ice that is um it's the melting of the ice that is providing the quick hit to make it cold.
+
+[46:35] And so you really need uh melting ice. You could theoretically um you know use only carbonate cold water and keep the carbonator in in a in a mini fridge and the water in a mini fridge, and then as long as your draw wasn't too low, you could do it, but it's kind of a pain. I'd really I would recommend if you have the money. I can I currently have an under-counter manitawok ice machine that is freaking amazing. The cold plate fits right in the bottom of the ice maker, and now I have fresh ice for drinks for cocktails or whatever else, and it just it it automatically drains.
+
+[47:10] That that mini minute wok under counter ice machine is I have the the boardroom model that's really home friendly. I would look at it. Um otherwise I'll have to think more. If none of these work, you have to ask me again, I'll think more. And also, in your rig, do you run the cold plate before or after the carbonator?
+
+[47:23] I imagine I could get away with lower CO2 pressure if the water line is already cold going into the carbonator, correct? Not really, because you're it's not it's not a system where it carbonates the water now, but you're not drinking that water for a long time. So if you were to if you were to keep the carbonator in the fridge, then yeah, you could have a cold plate and you could uh and you could use a lower pressure and push it through the cold plate first to chill it down, carbonate it and put it in. But 99%, if you mean most people can't store the carbonator in the fridge because it's rather large. So what they do is is they carbonate room temperature water, which is why you need it to be a hundred PSI, and then uh they chill it through the cold plate and then dispense.
+
+[47:59] But anyway, if you have any more questions, uh Wyatt, uh give uh you know, shout them back to me. And he says, love the show, and shouts to gunwash, Jack. Shouts to gunwash. Wow, it's a first time on this show. Yeah?
+
+[48:09] Yeah. Yeah. All right. I got one more question that I have to uh get to today. Do I have a couple minutes, uh, Jack?
+
+[48:15] Or no? A couple minutes? Sorry, not really. Oh my god, Jesper in Sweden, there's an auction that's gonna end today. Like three minutes?
+
+[48:21] Okay, go. Okay. I previously bought an old Bukey rotary evaporator, so I'm not gonna have time to explain to everyone what a rotor evaporator is, it's vacuum still. Uh on an auction, included was the base system uh and the condenser and all this and the boiling flask and receiving flask and all that. Look up rotary evaporator on the cooking issues you want to know.
+
+[48:36] Where I live, i.e. in Sweden, it's not that common to be able to get a cheap to be able to get cheap laboratory equipment on auctions, at least not what I've experienced. Moreover, Bukey is a pretty expensive brand, and in it's Swiss, that's why. And in hindsight, maybe I should have opted for a new complete IK uh IKA ICA uh system instead. Don't.
+
+[48:54] They suck. Remember when we had to use that system and it sucked, it sucked, it sucked, it leaked. I hated it. Remember that? And a leaky rotovap is bad flavor right there.
+
+[49:02] Anyway, however, now I have the R210 base, and my questions are related to kitting the system to have it operational. At the same time, one of those rare lab auctions are now taking place in my neighborhood, which closed its door in a week on Wednesday, June 25th, Jack, which is why I had to get to it. So it would be great if you could answer my question before that. My first choice is regards to vacuum pumps. Well, would uh would like to have a diaphragm one together with a vacuum controller, but the auctions do not have those.
+
+[49:23] Instead, they have a couple of rotary vein pumps. Now, all the ones that you mentioned are Edwards brand. Edwards are extremely, extremely high quality vacuum pumps. However, they are way overkill for the rotary evaporator application that you need. If you can get them cheaply, get them, they're awesome, but it's again way overkill.
+
+[49:39] Are any of the uh especially the like the E1 M18 and 28 because they handle vapor very well and they have a ballast in them? So then your question is, are any of those rotary vein pumps a good choice in regards to your opinion? My main concerns is the vapor and contamination. Should I uh buy a rotary vane pump and add some kind of inlet condenser or coal trap? You can, but that's a hassle.
+
+[49:56] It's a real hassle. It'll be easier for you to find a diaphragm pump that's gonna do what you want. Uh I use just a re regular refrigerator pump, which is a couple hundred dollars, a refrigerator vacuum pump, but it's not ideal either. Do I need something extra apart from the gas ballast valve uh open? No, not really.
+
+[50:09] And you're gonna have to close the gas valve valve if you're doing really super low temperature stuff. Another important topic related to the vacuum pump is how important is the vacuum controller? They're pretty expensive and they do not uh have them at the auction. If you're not using a vacuum controller, how do you control the vacuum? You put a bleeder valve on the line so that you can control like a very like a like a like a multi-turn needle valve to bleed air out on a T in the in the in line with the vacuum line.
+
+[50:29] That's how you do it, but it's a hassle because you have to control it. You have to sit there and constantly control it, and it's constantly pumping, which is also not ideal because you're because you're constantly pumping, you're sucking uh flavor out of your system. So I don't I mean, I've done it, that's how I used to do it, but I don't highly rec highly recommend it. You also uh mentioned a recirculating cooler that you use for your chiller. Uh, here's the thing.
+
+[50:49] Uh that'll work, but if I looked at the specs on it and at minus 10 C, which is what you're gonna want to run at least, it only does 120 watts of cooling. The main mistake people make with condensers is they do not have enough power to condense all the stuff that they uh can put that they can uh boil because the the heater is at like a thousand watts, and your condenser now is only providing 120 watts of cooling. What that means is your condenser is going to warm up significantly until it gets up to about 20 C. Um I can give you more input on that next week uh because those auctions are over. That's my feedback on the auction uh items that you have.
+
+[51:21] In other words, if you can get that pump cheap, I would get one of those pumps cheap, but it's not the same thing. And I can also work more on a vacuum controller. But the circulator, it's convenient to have around, but don't expect it to do high volumes. You're only doing 120 watts at minus 10 C. So don't expect to do high volumes of rotary evaporator work around it.
+
+[51:38] And Jesper, I'll get to the rest of your questions next week after the auction is over. This has been Cooking Issues.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[52:12] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center. Offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit International Culinary Center dot com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy.
+
+[0:20] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming together from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Jack in the booth, but today, special guest, Mark Ladner from Del Posto Restaurant in the studio today.
+
+[0:58] How are you doing, Mark? Pretty well, Dave. Listen, he's here actually to push his Kickstarter. However, since we have him trapped here, call in all of your Mark Ladner related questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:10] That's the last of my energy. I biked here today, gentle peoples. And let me tell you something. It is hot as hell out there right now. Although, Nastasha, I broke my usual rule of uh not biking the wrong way down the street, just to avoid that one street with the cement.
+
+[1:24] What always happens when I bike here is I bike down, I forget the name of it. It's like Johnson or White or something like that. There's a giant cement factory on it, and I inhale cement dust on the way here every day. I come, and that's why I'm like, I'm in the first section. That's why I could do the intro, because I went the wrong way down the street.
+
+[1:42] Uh hey Mark, how you doing? I'm doing well, dude. So uh before we get into the uh general cooking issues related uh questions, uh why don't you uh tell us a little bit about your Kickstarter? Well, um, yeah, so we have I think uh this is three days left on our Kickstarter campaign. We're trying to raise some money to do a uh pop-up for a quick service gluten-free pasta bowl concept, and we're hoping to visit some uh northeastern college campuses in the fall, uh hopefully most of the month of October.
+
+[2:18] And we're looking for some donations to get this truck so we can uh make some visits and get some people excited about gluten-free pasta. Okay, a couple of things. Let's just break this down a couple of things at a time, okay. Let's forget the gluten-free for one minute. Yes, dude.
+
+[2:31] Pasta bowl, right? Now explain the idea, the the genesis of the idea and why it's a necessary uh thing to have Italian style pasta done for lack of a better word, ramen style. In our speed, ramen speed, not style taste-wise, ramen speed. Well, um in my uh extensive uh experience traveling um the US and a lot of Italy, I've never really found a precedent for quick service Italian style pasta, and I found that to be uh frustrating and disappointing. Um when, for example, you and I, Dave, went to Tokyo, and uh the hammer as well.
+
+[3:11] The hammer was there too. Um we we had a lot of examples of really great fast food that was ramen that was a nourishing meal as well as a quick uh snack, and there's no precedent for that in America. Um obviously you've seen there has been quite a bit of uh momentum in the ramen um space as of late. Sure. Um with m Momofuku, for example.
+
+[3:38] Um but there is no sort of precedent for for pasta done that way, and I don't really understand why. Now is it is more of a mental problem or a technical problem or both? No, it's mental. It's purely mental. I don't think there's any technical problems at all.
+
+[3:51] Because you're dealing with uh fresh fresh pasta. It's gonna be fresh style pastas, not dried style pastas, right? Are you gonna parcook? It's dried pasta. Straight dried?
+
+[3:59] It's made from fresh but it's dry. So but semi so in other words has to cook quickly though, right? Or are you gonna cooks quickly. Like how many so it's not like fully dry. It's not fully dried then.
+
+[4:07] Or is it like air dried but it's porous so it picks up the water really quickly not to give away too much. Cooked and then dried. Okay, so it rehydrates like super fast. Yeah. And uh explain to us the gluten free.
+
+[4:19] Um well this uh the gluten free aspect uh started for two reasons. One because we s found obviously um dealing with dietary restriction and preference in the restaurant that it was becoming an increasing trend. Uh we're currently at probably around thirty percent of our guests prefer gluten-free, the gluten-free lifestyle today, whether it will remain that way is obviously in question. But um we realized with so many people uh demanding gluten-free uh pasta that we would need to have two inventories a gluten and a non-glu gluten. If you're mixing the two then you can't have a certified non-gluten so you're not really doing much of a service to the gluten free people.
+
+[5:00] Plus you need different boiling water. Right exactly and and some say different machines depending upon whether you want to be certified or not. So we decided to focus all our energy on just making the absolute best gluten free pasta, which I feel is as good as regular gluten pasta at this point. Well, I know you're a big side-by-side tasting uh fellow, as am I, and you've done many side by sides at at your restaurant Del Post and what and what are the results uh been? Um It's hard to say.
+
+[5:27] I mean, it's non-gluten, so um it has a lot to do with the saucing, you know. Um if you have a delicious, flavorful sauce, it's harder to uh taste the difference. Um so I'm going primarily for texture. And you feel you get the cup of it. I feel that I've been able to um uh simulate an al dente texture, which is very unusual in gluten-free pasta because there's no gluten.
+
+[5:49] And currently you're you're using the uh the cup for cup. I'm currently using cup for cup. I like it a lot. But in volume, it's not it's it's it's it's affordable in volume. Considering what you considering the amount that goes per serving, you're saying it's reasonable.
+
+[6:03] Absolutely. Now, uh by the way, for those of you that don't see here's the thing that maybe people don't know. Maybe they've never been to Del Posto, maybe they don't realize kind of what uh like a bonker's lunatic you are for pasta texture. Yes. But uh, you know, uh I mean, unlike Nastasha who will eat like uh pasta freaking sludge soup, if it's handed to her uh cooked by students, she still will eat like a a paste, a a pureed, a uh a rebolito of pasta, uh you might say, uh that's just her style.
+
+[6:34] I don't know. But like Mark. That's not entirely true. No, she prefers it done. She prefers it done properly.
+
+[6:41] She will eat slop. Slop pasta. If you were to cook pasta to the point that I was gonna dehydrate it and puff it, she would still eat it as a cooked pasta if I threw some crappy marnara on it. That's just gross. It's wrong.
+
+[6:54] It's just wrong. But I love it about her because it shows that she has some inherent like weird crap that you couldn't predict because she does appreciate like nicely cooked pasta. You on the other hand, Mark, detest poorly cooked pasta. I do detest poorly cooked pasta. So one thing I can guarantee, uh, if you were to stop by uh this uh this this quick serve pasta concept is that you will uh appreciate the texture that Mark is able to get.
+
+[7:14] Now here's another thing. Who's this who's this non a chick? Who's that? I'm kidding. You say it's non a style, right?
+
+[7:25] What does that mean? Oh no no no no, no, no, no, no. It's our matriarchal uh avatar. Yeah, if you will. And so apparently she knows how to make the the pot do you like her style of pizza that they now sell in New York or not?
+
+[7:38] And and whose grandmother makes that kind of pizza anyways. I I don't know. One other thing I just wanted to say really quickly, Dave, is that um it's important to mention that I would probably consider myself to be a better pasta cooker than a pasta maker, and I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of the cooking aspect of pasta. Yeah. That's how that texture is achieved.
+
+[8:00] Are you uh are you a believer in the uh undercook even more and then hot sauce, put it together, let it soak? Yes. Isn't everyone who knows who Yeah, but I don't use the water, I don't believe in that technique. No, you use the you make the sauce a little thinner, right? Or what?
+
+[8:14] Yeah, I make the sauce center, but I I don't use the pasta water because I oversalt my water. So I just use tap water. Yeah, what's up, oversalt? That's right. Well, because you can't you can't once you reduce salty water, it becomes an edible.
+
+[8:25] So and then if you're combining it with other really salty things like rendered cured pork product or uh sheep's milk cheeses that are aged and things like that, it becomes compounded to the point where you can't I've never uh eat it. You know the uh the commercial uh pasta cookers that are like redone fryers with this dark skimmer on the top? You use those things? Yes. How do you keep the salt level constant that you have to keep tasting it?
+
+[8:47] And that's it's really not a big deal, but yes, you have to keep tasting it. Yeah. Alright. I've never I've never really used one. They suck.
+
+[8:52] Really? Yeah. Is there a better system out there? There is not. Yeah, it's really it's it's uh it's really frustrating.
+
+[8:59] They've been uh decreasing the quality of steel uh a little bit every year over the past fifteen years to the point where if you get one to last three months, it's a miracle. Really? It's that bad. Does it go at the weld joints or where does it go? Or does it just start throwing rust into the water or what?
+
+[9:15] Um yeah, it's the joints. They're they they blow out. Or or it's just it's just really cheap fabricated steel, and also um they'll actually tell you that uh they prefer that you don't use salt. That's a good one, right? Why not just say that why not just say that you prefer that you not cook pasta in the pasta cooker?
+
+[9:33] That would be easier. You know what I think it is? A lot of times, any time there is um one of the problems with stainless steel, 304 and 316, which I think they mainly make these things out of 304 and 316, is that if there's any non-stainless uh stuff in it, it will migrate and shaft the stainless. So if they use any non-stainless stuff in it at all, this is like if you look up it for people if you care about this stuff, like look up the dangers of using non-stainless screws in stainless fabrication when it's exposed to corrosive environments. And there is no other environment as corrosive as well, there are, but I mean no cooking environment as corrosive as hot salted water.
+
+[10:12] Yeah, exactly. You know, so I don't know whether it's maybe like even just cooks using non stainless, but like you know how those fake stainless racks, when you throw them in an immersion circulator, they rust out in like a day. Yep. Yeah, we've had you know five thousand dollar machines that have pitted out and in in three days. I wonder whether it's the rack inserts they're shafting it.
+
+[10:31] Like whether it's just poor quality. I mean, there's something in there is shafting it. Like if they use the real stuff, it should last longer than that. In the past it has. They've just they've just chose to use cheaper and cheaper steel.
+
+[10:43] Right. Yeah, but I wonder whether it's the I wonder if they cheaped out on one particular thing, it's ruining everything. Like maybe they're maybe they're saving, because I'm having this problem manufacturing uh in China now. Maybe it's maybe they're saving a nickel and costing you five grand. Yeah.
+
+[10:55] You know what I mean? No, no, no. It seems like it could be true. It's like for five thousand bucks, I'll give you this pasta cooker's gonna last for a month and a half. For five thousand and two dollars, it'll last for three years.
+
+[11:05] You know what I'm saying? So one last thing, one last thing before we just start that uh dealing with regular questions. Uh so like let's say I was to go on the website and and and donate some money. Yes. Yes.
+
+[11:16] Well, you could get everything from we've been working, Dave, on an instant pasta bowl, because this pasta that we've created can actually be cooked in one minute. So um, as I know you are a huge fan of microwave cooking, I also am a proponent of uh of the magic of the microwave. Yeah, people just haven't thought enough about it. Um so this this pasta's actually cooked in a microwave. You mean the like you mean the one that you're gonna the instant one?
+
+[11:43] Both. And you're gonna and so if I pay are you gonna send me some of this stuff? Is that how okay? So then listen here. Are you it's only for ten bucks, Dave?
+
+[11:50] That's a freaking bargain. You should charge uh uh more or like let people buy. Here's the problem with Kickstarters. Can someone go buy a case of this crap and give you a hundred bucks instead? Absolutely not.
+
+[11:59] Freaking Kickstarter. Uh you know that. I know Dave, how many kicks are campaigns? Ah, hey, hey, yo, well, my point is is that like why don't they let you consider like a 10 box of this stuff like a different skew from like or uh hey, hey, if it was a different flavor, you could do it. We're also selling uh kilo bag.
+
+[12:20] Sweet. Of the instant stuff? On the on the on the now, I'm not saying, but you know what I've always wanted to own? I've always wanted to own one of those things that can seal the top of a bowl or a cup with a little thing. Yeah.
+
+[12:29] Do you have that? Are you gonna get the or are you gonna bottom it? I don't know where to get one. I'm I I mean I've I've gone to the packaging fairs. I don't know how much they cost, but wouldn't that be sick if you had the little you could literally make the my kids love hearty chicken?
+
+[12:41] They don't like the the actual Asian versions, but the the really crappy hardy chicken noodle one, because it doesn't have any vegetables, that's why. They love that that fake that fake soup stuff there. It's good stuff. They have new ones that are like perforated secondary skin lids so you can like drain out the the cooking water, which is pretty cool. Sauce, is that your favorite new word?
+
+[13:00] Skin lid? She's got the look, she's got the lip. I think. I will go cook at your house for a phenomenal fee. How much does that cost?
+
+[13:11] How much stuff? Five grand, I think. Five grand. And and how many people will you cook for? Twelve.
+
+[13:15] Twelve? Ten or twelve. Oh do the math. What is that? It's a lot.
+
+[13:19] No, I mean it's not that much. How much is that? Well, it would be five hundred dollars. Let me put it in. It's roughly the cost of going to Del Posto.
+
+[13:28] We bring all the food and some nice bottles of Chianti. It's it's look it's roughly the cost uh for you to go out to have a dinner at Del Posto, and instead, Mark Latin will come to your house, which is sure to impress your buddies. Yeah. It would impress my buddies. And we could we could we could enjoy some gluten free pasta or some gluten pasta.
+
+[13:47] Yeah, we can cook that too. Are you gonna make any will you make any of your like famous like billion layer lasagna code? Sure, why not? Love that stuff. Is the billion layer lasagna working?
+
+[13:55] Is it working in no uh in a no gluten form very well? It does very well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's good on a stick too, Dave, which I figured you'd appreciate.
+
+[14:03] You could probably eat it on your bike. Well, geez, if you're gonna put it on a stick, do you s di well you chill it, skewer it? Exactly. And then uh, but then the question is, can you make it such that you I mean, will it stick together enough once it's re-turned? No.
+
+[14:15] So we gotta coat it with something and then fry it. We prefer to serve it cold with hot sauce. Mmm, cold with hot sauce. That sounds like some sort of like a revenge-based like metaphor. Stas will figure that out, I'm sure.
+
+[14:30] In the Queen of Revenge. Alright, okay, so let's look at some questions. You've got a live caller. Oh, live caller. Live caller, you're on the air.
+
+[14:40] Hello, hello, Dave. I uh I have a question for you. I recently bought some uh carbon steel pans. Okay. Uh and I I seasoned them what I thought was properly at the time, but I think I used a little bit too much oil.
+
+[14:53] I was wondering if you knew a good way to kind of set them back to factory without, and I prefer not to use anything like uh electrolysis. Okay. So uh the way to tell if you have too much oil when you're seasoning it, is you'll have A, you'll have drip marks on the inside, like little bumps, and you'll have kind of a stickiness in the uh in the bottom of the pan, right, Mark? Yes. Is that is that is that what you're noticing?
+
+[15:16] Yeah. How hot does your oven get? Do you have a self-clean? Do you have a self-clean cycle in your oven? Uh I uh I'm using pans in a professional setting, so.
+
+[15:28] Oh. I mean, if you have someone with access to a self-cleaning oven, just remove any any any plastic handles and throw the pans in on self-clean, and it'll incinerate all of the stuff that's on it, and then you're starting from scratch. Um the the I mean you can do it, you can do it on your s on like a commercial range top. The problem is, is it's really gonna smoke out the kitchen, and you have uh uh a real you're like unless you're really careful with it, you're gonna warp the bottom of your pan. Uh neither of which is things you want.
+
+[16:02] You want you much prefer the even heat of an oven, but a standard commercial oven in runaway is only going to get up to about 550, and you need to get you need to get over six and six, I would say six fifty-six and change to burn that stuff off. If you have access to like a wood fired oven, you can do that, or if you have access to like a real pizza, you know, oven, you that'll probably get hot enough to burn the sucker off. Um what do you think, Mark? Oh, I do have access to a wood fire oven. Oh, yeah, cool.
+
+[16:29] Then fire the hell out of it. Like fire the ever loving hell out of it. Then brush the stuff to the sides, throw the pan in, and uh just you know, stand back, let the smoke, it'll it'll smoke off. Uh it might take it a while. You you can tell because it'll look like steel again.
+
+[16:43] It'll never look fresh. It's gonna look kind of black, but it won't have the coating on it, and then just I would like I would like just give it a scotch bright-y and then uh and then re-season, but you know, obviously be careful about not dripping too much oil in it next time. You know what I usually do? I usually put the oil uh I put a little in the bottom, I run it around, and then I quickly just take a uh uh like a pa the problem with paper towels, I use them, but is they can throw lint into it and leave little linty jobbies in the thing, so you have to be kind of careful. They make specific kind of like brushes and things like this.
+
+[17:15] If you get like the crepe making people have like oiling pads that don't throw lint off, but then I just wipe it around the pan, like let it drip, wipe it off to get the excess out, and then throw it in the oven. I do that like five, six times, and then uh it builds up enough of a coat so that you can build from there, you know. Do you have a better thing other than paper towels, Mark, to use for that? I mean, I mean, I do, but it sucks. Issues like um like kitchen side towels or white balls.
+
+[17:39] I like white balls. What's a which is the witches of white balls? Is that the Japanese sport towel? What is that? Yeah, I believe it is.
+
+[17:45] Yeah, you know what I'm talking about, those Japanese sushi sport towels. They're so expensive, man. Yeah, they're good. Yeah, but like the only issue with paper to side towels and paper towels, hey, you know, you could probably you you'd ruin it, and so the the front of house is gonna get pissed, but you could use a polishing cloth. They would hate you.
+
+[17:59] Those work great. Yeah, they would hate you though. But whatever. I mean, the thing is if you throw it away, you can blame the front of house for having lost it, right? I'm kidding.
+
+[18:08] Don't do that to your front of house. Anyway, uh let's go on to a question. We have a question. Uh oh, is that good? Is that good?
+
+[18:15] You happy with that? Let us know how it works. Perfect. Thank you very much. Alright, cool.
+
+[18:19] Uh okay. Alex in Toronto wrote in. Uh, and we'll take this question and then we'll go to a break. Uh a few weeks ago, I sent in a question about fond. I think you'll like this one, Mark.
+
+[18:28] Not not f like fond, like fond of you, like fond in the bottom of a pan when you're making the meat. Uh, and uh one about an upcoming event you mentioned. I was wondering if you had chosen not to answer, or maybe it got lost in the shuffle of the last few weeks. Uh I totally understand if this sort of thing is limited interest. But if it did simply get forgotten, here are the questions I sent before.
+
+[18:45] Alex, we do not ignore questions. If we missed it, it means we missed it. So please, anyone, if they send a question and we don't get to it, it means it got lost in the shuffle. Like maybe it got put on my iPad and then like I didn't see it because I didn't bold face it or whatever. But no, we don't we don't ever purposely have we ever purposely ignored a question?
+
+[19:03] No. No. No, no. We take anything. Wow.
+
+[19:06] Just like remember, like my grandma. Just like my grandma. That's his most famous, I think, saying back at the uh SCI about uh our intern uh Cliff Gilbert. Now we're gonna do an hour. Anyway, okay.
+
+[19:18] Uh let's take the second one first. Uh last week you started talking about an upcoming trip to Toronto. I'm a huge fan of cooking issues, and on the one occasion I was able to go, I love Booker and Dax. Will this Toronto event be something that is possible for a regular schlub like myself to get tickets to? Best Alex.
+
+[19:29] Well, uh being a schlub myself, I will be there. Uh but what am I doing? I'm actually tending bar in uh which which which restaurant over there. Um you're gonna look it up like I remember your first. I don't why would I why would the people on the air want to know about my flights?
+
+[19:49] I thought it was a personal thing. No, it was not a personal thing. Right at it. Okay, we'll look it up and we'll figure it out. But I believe that uh, you know, anyone in the restaurant that night uh can order cocktails that I will theoretically be making.
+
+[20:00] That's on the 10th. On the 10th. And then the other thing is uh there's a Toronto Film Festival, and I'm going to be discussing the relative merits or demerits of soil. And you're gonna say fire in a movie theater. Check this out, people.
+
+[20:14] Did I mention this on air already? Okay. So they want me to do a Sears all demonstration in a movie theater. Let me repeat this. They want me to do a Searsol demonstration involving torches and fire in a movie theater.
+
+[20:33] Now, I like fire more than the next guy. In fact, yesterday, my wife Jen was like, Dave, you're a freaking pyro. Like the theme that runs through your whole life is that you're a freaking pyro. From the time you're a kid. Whatever.
+
+[20:46] I'm building more rockets with Dax. I got like a I got like a five foot rocket called G Force that uses a G scale motor and flight, you know, huge, like crazy. The last time I made one, we had a problem with the ejection charge, and the thing burrowed like a foot into the ground. Would have gone through any car that hit crazy. Anyway, so so she's like, You're a pyro, you're you're imprinting the pyro on the children, whatever.
+
+[21:07] So I'm just saying, I like fire. Uh uh, I'm a cook. I think most cooks like fire. Mark? Love it.
+
+[21:14] Yeah, you love it, right? If you didn't like fire and you were a cook, that's kind of like a doctor who's a full afraid of blood. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean questionable character.
+
+[21:22] Yeah. It's like yeah, go into raw food then. You could be you could be a raw food preparationist if you if you don't like the fire. Anywho, uh I think it's unwise to do a fire demo in a movie theater. It's like the classic that you don't yell fire in a crowded theater.
+
+[21:41] You know what the corollary to that is, math people? You don't make a fire in a crowded movie theater. You know? I'm gonna cry fire. I'm gonna make the I'm gonna turn on the series all and then go, fire!
+
+[21:54] Just kidding. No, I mean it's a ridiculous idea. Uh, you know what? Thank God it's not my movie theater. And you know what?
+
+[21:59] Anyone in Canada listening, are your rules different in Canada? Are you allowed to light fires in movie theaters in Canada? Maybe. Where I come from, movie theaters are made like a fabric and crap, and like, you know, like it's easy to have people get jammed in the doors and trampled to death. So we tend not to light fires in movie theaters here in this country.
+
+[22:14] You said the movie was soiling green, right? And that your demo is based off Soylent Green. Are you saying I'm supposed to cook people? Did you see that there's a we talked about this already on air that there's a a person marketing something called Soylent? Yeah, no, you were supposed to do something with it, remember?
+
+[22:28] No, that was a different Soylent. Oh, okay. So this this soylent, like that one was the one that's supposed to like that like a uh television personality who shall remain nameless, said, Will you do something with this product soylent, which was meant to uh kind of simulate milt, as the guy said, the milt. For those of you that are up on your uh fish fish bodily product terminology. I won't say the other, I won't say the human analogy on the air, but uh so I guess that would be made from proto people.
+
+[22:56] But this soylent is uh how far can we stretch that? But the this soylent is literally the this this person who's an engineering person says, Don't you hate how you spend all this time wondering what you're gonna eat and whether or not you're gonna enjoy it? Why not just take all the enjoyment out? Here's all of the nutrients you need that they currently know about mixed into a paste that you can squeeze into your mouth or drink. Takes two minutes and you can prepare a week's worth of meals and you could just drink it on the go.
+
+[23:22] You don't no longer have to worry about like whether you enjoy your life. More time for kickboxing and other crap that makes you not live any longer. You know what I mean? Let's say you if look look, when you're looking I love kickboxing, I love kickboxing, I think it's really awesome. Because it was on the it was on the damn uh like video for it.
+
+[23:39] Like they show this person who's like here's the thing about overly healthy people, right? Like, I think like crazy kung fu people that can do amazing stuff are freaking amazing. Like I love that they exist, I love it that they exist. But like the idea that we all need to be like hyper-cut, hyper fit, like somehow that's part of what it means to be like an acty, active, healthy, like urban person in today's environment. I think it's just it's just gross.
+
+[24:05] It's it's it's it's like instead of like your car expense of every other joy in life. Expense of every other joy in life, and at considerable actual monetary expense. It's like it's it's the current version of having a really sweet car. And I think in a way, it's just as gross as like I think like being fit and healthy is awesome. I think like the hyper fit, healthy, polished thing, it's just it's it's another like modern craziness, no?
+
+[24:30] Mm-hmm. Espe especially if it means that you're not, if you're if you're eating this. Here's a note to here's how you can tell whether you fall on the right side or the wrong side of like health. If you're buying soylent, you're on the wrong side. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[24:41] Like, that's it. That's the marker right there. If you if you are purchasing uh soylent because you spend too much of your time enjoying your life and not enough time uh uh with more kickboxing, problems. So did you want to know your plates? Uh no, I don't.
+
+[24:57] I want to know. I mean, eventually, but not right now. Okay, so the second question Alex had was uh hang tight on the second question. I have an enthusiastic caller on the line right now. All right, caller, you were on the air.
+
+[25:08] Hi, uh this is Matt from Milwaukee. I have a question about making an alcoholic squat eat. Okay. So we purchased uh uh our restaurant operates four nights a week, and then on Fridays and Saturdays, starting at eleven thirty, we kind of switch it to an underground ramen shop and just flying ramen and beers and stuff. We thought it'd be awesome to buy a slushy machine and make boozy flushies.
+
+[25:35] Uh and we were just wondering is there any special formulation that we're gonna have to do to make certain cocktails in this flushy mode? I know Parsons, chicken and fish in Chicago does Negroni fleshies, and that was when we learned of that, we were like, oh, light bulb. Okay. Oh, nice, nice uh nice uh despicable me reference. I appreciate that.
+
+[25:57] Uh the uh so here's the trick. Negronies are the the reason why, first of all, as we all know, Negronies are delicious and hugely popular in uh in the food service sector for the past um you know long time and recently have become kind of popularly popular in like kind of general general uh issue. But uh one of the amazing things about Negroni, one of the reasons you see it in so many different guises, is that that sucker is bulletproof. So it's it's good uh too cold. It's not really it's the one thing it's not good, is it's not really good too warm, but it's good too cold, it's good uh over diluted, it's good uh carbonated.
+
+[26:37] Very few drinks are as malleable as the uh Negronias, which is why it lends itself to a lot of things. Um so it's not a surprise that someone uh made a good tasting Negroni in a slushy format. It's a little trickier when you're dealing with um with other uh products. What you have to realize is that a slushy is in general going to be more diluted than uh a regular cocktail. So the first mistake people make with it with a s with a slushy based um with a slushy based drink is uh getting the alcohol level too high.
+
+[27:10] You need to pull the uh alcohol level uh uh lower. Also, Negroni is interesting because it doesn't contain other than the acidity from the vermouth, there's not um a lot of added acidity unless you're adding juices, and so you don't have to worry as much about the uh acid balance in uh in a negroni that's watered down as you do in a um in a cocktail that contains acidity, for instance, a margarita. When you're gonna dilute and chill something more than normal, what you need to do is slightly reduce the acidity and slightly increase the uh the ratios, sugar. In general, so so I'm not saying make it sweeter on a volume basis, because you don't want to do that, but I'm saying you're gonna want to uh uh decrease the acid to sugar ratio slightly. Uh and you'll you'll notice this as you dilute uh drinks down, drinks that um uh you you'll you'll you'll you'll know it, you'll just notice this.
+
+[28:07] That uh that that that's the way your kind of palate works. For a general guideline, I would look up uh I I have a published uh blender drink that works in a slushy machine that's done using a freezer in the New York Times magazine a couple months ago called the Italiana Stalliana, which is a take on a Harvey Wallbanger. And that that recipe is tweaked to work uh either in a fridge or in a uh in a slushy machine. And if you follow those ratios of liquid to alcohol, you should be in the right range. And uh, you know, I you know, if I had it with me, I don't have it with me.
+
+[28:42] I have a bunch of recipes with those specs, and actually I have the percentages in my cocktail book, which is coming out in November. Uh liquid intelligence from WW Norton. Uh, but so those have the specs. But I would start right around there. Does that make sense?
+
+[28:56] Yes, it does. Thanks. Thanks. We're uh we're always it has like cute slots in it. So we're always gonna have like a Wisconsin old fashioned in one of them with the brandy.
+
+[29:07] And then the other one, we actually want to have like stuff from around town and and cocktail guys from around town come by and do like whatever the hell they want for a week and just kind of have that as like a special mark. So one of the one of the things in my cocktail book that is kind of uh you know, relatively new for the cocktail books, as far as I can tell, is uh I have a chapter in it called Cocktail Calculus. And in cocktail calculus, what what I've done is I've uh looked at uh you know the standard ingredients that we use in our battery de cocktail. And uh I've knocked I've like I've broken them down by percentage acidity and percentage sugar, uh, and then looked at uh like alcohol, sugar, and dilution uh numbers for something like uh I think like uh I forget what it was, like 50 or 60 kind of classic cocktails, and then all of the recipes that I've ever created. And what I noticed stunningly is that uh the ranges for different styles of cocktail are fairly limited in terms of their uh acid to sugar ratios, and then in terms of how those acid to sugar ratios mix with um mix with ethanol levels for various styles of drinks.
+
+[30:19] And so now you can calculate all the stuff. So if you look up the numbers that are in uh that Italiano Stellano and you try to hit those numbers for sugar, and you know if you if you email me in a question and I can get you the actual numbers, you're looking for percentage ethanol, percentage sugar, percentage acid, I could talk about it next week. But that's ostensibly one of the interesting things about my cocktail book is this kind of new system where you're just looking at overall sugar acid and um ethanol percentages for different styles of drinks. But I have those numbers for blender drinks, and what I do for carbonated drinks at the bar is literally when I'm developing it, I just have those numbers and I just move the ingredients around until I hit the proper numbers and then it's a go from there. Excellent.
+
+[30:59] That's exact that's exactly what we're kind of looking for. Just to see if we could just formulate something like a sorbet. So if someone tells us like a day out, like, hey, will this work in the machine, then we can then we can do that to be ready for go time instead of wasting a bunch of hammer time without having a good product. All right, well, I'll give you some of the numbers if you email in a question, but you still have to go out and buy my book, deal. Uh absolutely.
+
+[31:23] You're gonna have like eight guys with this restaurant by your button. Cool, thanks. We're big we're big fans. I've been a listener since day one. Oh, I appreciate it.
+
+[31:30] Well, you know, I I am uh uh I cannot believe that people have listened to us for that long, but thank you so much. I appreciate it. Louise is still there? No. No, he's gone.
+
+[31:42] All right. Uh, we're gonna come to a break, come back with more uh cooking issues. Hi, I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. This summer, Heritage Radio Network is turning five years old. Since our launch in 2009, we've continued to bring you food and culture content like no one else.
+
+[32:12] And we need, absolutely need your help. HeritageRadio Network.org is a passionate, grassroots, action-oriented, nonprofit organization. That means we depend on the support from listeners like you to keep us alive. If you love what you hear on Heritage Radio Network, visit your website and become a member today. Thanks for listening, and thanks for your support.org.
+
+[33:13] The ICC with locations in New York and California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Cann Hamilton from Chef's Story. Check out our ICC website at International Culinary Center.com. And we're back.
+
+[33:37] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. You still have time to call any questions to Mark Ladner at 7184972128. That's 7184972128. But before we get back to Alex's question about fund. Yeah.
+
+[33:56] And you have some other fundraiser you want to talk about. Why don't you uh describe it? Well, it's our five did you know it's our five-year anniversary this summer? I did not. Five years.
+
+[34:04] Five, five, five, five, four. We've been on it for what, four? Yeah. Three? Four?
+
+[34:08] It's been a long time. Yeah. Somewhere in that range. So what do we got for five years? So we're doing a summer fundraiser, and John Riper, thank you for donating.
+
+[34:17] And we hope the other Cooking Issues listeners might consider supporting the network for all of the programming we offer for free. And we are listener supported, nonprofit organizations, so any amount helps. It's HeritageRadio Network.org. And you can click the donate button. Jack, let me ask you a question.
+
+[34:34] Yeah. So, this programming on this show here, we provide this for what? How much do we charge for this? Zero. Wait, but is it free for us to make this?
+
+[34:42] Oh, it's not free for us to make, no. It's free for you to listen to. Wait, so there are costs that come along with uh running an internet radio station. So like all this stuff, this is not free yet. We do not charge for the product.
+
+[34:55] Correct. So this is a bad business model. It's a kind business model. Right. Yeah.
+
+[35:02] So in other words, what you guys out there need to do is support our bad business model by giving poor Jack some money so that he can by the way, uh Jack, the intro music today, was that was that you with like the kind of almost newsy ding needling in the back? No, no, the only people who hear that are the ones tuning in live. That was before the actual show started, and those are friends of the network who also give us music for free. So, you know. Yeah, oh, by the way, Jack, the not you, Jack, Jack the uh bar back at uh Booker and Dax, who's also in the NYU food program.
+
+[35:33] You know what? You know what he saw the other day uh talking about a friend of ours. He saw big ups in concert, Joe's band. He said, Joe, you know, Joe, also, you know, engineer here, wasn't it here? Uh, those of you that listen uh back in the day, uh, or when you were on uh the break, said he was an amazing frontman.
+
+[35:49] Said it was an awesome show. He's unreal. He's really, really good. Maybe we should all go see a big up show sometime. You remember Carlos?
+
+[35:55] Yeah. He's in big ups also. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Nice.
+
+[35:58] Well, apparently big ups to big ups. Yeah. I but like I heard that Joe like like strangles himself with the mic cord. He does, yeah, it's true. He like rips his face apart on stage.
+
+[36:08] It's insane. He likes stares at the ground sullenly for a minute, then wraps the mic cord around himself, chokes himself, and then goes crazy or something like this. You would never guess if you met the guy. No, he seems like a nice fellow. He's insane on stage.
+
+[36:19] So he's not like Alien Jorgensen. He doesn't cut himself, does he? No. Yeah. Well, I hope not, because Alien Jorgensen, I mean, God love him.
+
+[36:26] I can't believe he's still alive. But uh, not from cutting himself, but just all the freaking heroin. You know what I mean? So much heroin. I mean, I like old ministry.
+
+[36:34] You like old ministry, Mark and Jack or Styles? Yeah, right. Jesus built my hot rod. Not the version on the album, which I think is not as good, but the version on the EP that had the giant uh motor on the front of it, was a song that's gotten me through many problems in my life, many late nights. Jesus built my car.
+
+[36:50] You know that song, Jack? I don't. Oh my goodness! He can't play it either, because we need to get off those eight. Do you think we can get Alien Jorgensen?
+
+[36:58] You know who sings the uh lyrics on that is the guy from um the butthole surfers. Yeah. Anyways. That is a good song. And now it's going through my head, so I don't know if I'm gonna be able to answer these questions.
+
+[37:09] Uh I mean to talk about edible schools. Oh yeah, Stas. You know, our good friends at Edible School Yard, before we go back into the question. And then we'll just go do questions like rapid fire on the way out. So uh, you know, our good friends at the Edible Schoolyard who, you know, they just they just help kids like you know grow things and understand where their food comes from and make them appreciate things like you know, fresh vegetables.
+
+[37:28] I mean, really terrible idea, right? It's terrible. Terrible, terrible idea. Anyway, great. Uh so uh they are having a uh a fundraising event as well, and so Stas, why don't you talk about it?
+
+[37:39] It's to uh benefit their a new school in Harlem or a new edible schoolyard in in Harlem, and uh it'll if you donate, you'll go toward vital infrastructure improvements. So they have one where it's in Brooklyn, right? The current one? Yeah. So this one's going to be a good one.
+
+[37:55] So they they want to do one in Harlem, and people, this is a good project to support. Where do they go? Crowdrise.com. I think just look for Edible Schoolyard within it. Edible School Year of CrowdRise.
+
+[38:05] My son, uh actually Booker is no longer gonna be uh his school's no longer gonna be up in Harlem, but he's he's uh going um uh downtown next year. But he's been going to school in Harlem for the past six six years or so, and like you know, like a lot of the schools up there, they could use this sort of program. It'd be really helpful, useful, awesome, and uh worthwhile for your extra nickels. Now, you can't get Mark Ladner to come cook for you in that. But how do they get to uh before we before we don't forget, we didn't say where the Kickstarter is to find your thing.
+
+[38:34] You can go to www.pastaflyer.com. Pastaflyer.com. You also get to hear the voice of Phil Bravo, right? Yeah. Phil Bravo.
+
+[38:42] Phil Bravo. The mean cameo. Yeah, but giant D bag for not coming and announcing on our show. Mean I'm just gonna say huge D-bag. That's why we couldn't get them personal car service or something.
+
+[38:52] This is such a D bag. I don't know what that is. It doesn't work for free, Dave. Well, it doesn't work at all. Hey, how many times has has Phil mooched like liquor and or food off of some event that we've been a part of?
+
+[39:03] Tons. Yeah, think about it. Don't have enough fingers for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one has enough fingers.
+
+[39:08] Even if you had a genetic genetic anomaly and you were born with like quadruple fingers, you wouldn't have enough fingers and toes to make up for the number of times Phil has mooched food and booze off of us. And like, you know, I'm just saying, all I wanted in return was a little bit of his sweet, sweet, thorough Ravencroft esque voice, uh doing his Tony the Tiger action. You've not lived until you've heard Phil Bravo do uh a sad Tony the Tiger, saying they're great in a really mopey voice. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:34] I mean, you know, Mark, you have quite a sonorous resonant voice, but even you would have to admit Phil Bravo has like the takes the cake. He's like a satin kerchief, uh Phil Bravo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to Alex's question before I get kicked off the air.
+
+[39:48] Uh a few weeks ago I sent in a question about fond. I was wondering uh uh I was let's get to the question. I make many recipes from Cooks Illustrated which rely on searing meat to create a fond, which is then used as a base for a sauce or a gravy. Do you like the word gravy styles? Mezzometsa?
+
+[40:03] Okay. Uh what about you know, Mark, I know that you're not from there, but like you know, you hang out in Rhode Island, right? Sure. Are they like Boston where they call sauce gravy when it's on macaroni real times? With do they call it macaroni and gravy like they do in Boston?
+
+[40:15] Sure. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, in Boston, they get that one.
+
+[40:19] Well, you're in New Haven, Dave. Do they do that? I didn't hang out with uh real like a t Italian Americans there. Uh I used to go to a place actually called the Marcagana Club, which was real, but I didn't talk to the cooks. It was all cops, nuns, dirty linoleum floor, and soap operas.
+
+[40:32] And it was like you had to have a key, and you went in and it was just like the weird, like the weird like salad bar, and you know, it's like the whole real deal. And you know, but you know what they say about people from Marque to better to have a death in the family than a Mark Jana at the door. You know what I'm saying? Yeah? Yeah, nice.
+
+[40:49] Anyway, no offense to people from Marque. Anyway, so the uh uh you know, tax collectors. Anyways, um uh I make many recipes from Cooks Illustrated, which rely on serum meat to create a font, which is then used as a base for a sauce or gravy. I was wondering if you could give me some tips about how to do this more effectively and efficiently. I sometimes have trouble getting a font to form at all, and often it takes a long time to form when I do succeed.
+
+[41:11] It does take a long time. I mean that's the idea. If it I mean there's no way you can't not have it take a long time because the idea is to create those those brown bits without burning it. I mean, there's no You need some BTUs too. I mean you can't do it.
+
+[41:23] Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyway, let's so uh when I do succeed, uh much longer than the recipe descriptions would indicate. Maybe underpowered stove. Yeah. Um I'd say so.
+
+[41:34] Yeah. Also, it seems that the delicious brown particles that are created end up suspended in the oil, much of which much beats discarded to avoid making the recipe greasy. Uh I think a lot of people use too much oil when they're trying to do something like this anyway. I mean, like it think about it this way. Well, we'll get into it.
+
+[41:47] It seems to me that several other uh several factors affect this process, including the amount of oil in the pan, yes. The temperature of the pan when the meat hits the metal, maybe more like the amount of heat you can deliver to it, really. You know what I mean? Um how high the element is turned, and probably oh element is turned. See, I'm thinking now that you have an electric range, which I've never had a good result with an electric range, right?
+
+[42:10] Have you marked? I mean induction, yes, but like like a regular like electric when whenever anyone says whenever anyone says the uh element is turned makes me think they have one of those old school electric ranges, which of they're like they have bad. I mean, I don't I mean look, you can work with it. You who like those things? Jane's beard.
+
+[42:28] Weird, right? Also, Jane's beard did not like fresh sardines, liked canned sardines, which I also like, but they're not the same product. Why would you even compare them? They're not the same. Anyway.
+
+[42:39] Um probably the temperature and the dryness of the meat itself. What are the optimal conditions for creating a delicious myard tastic fond? And what is my best bet for doing so, either quickly or uh efficiently in the home kitchen. Okay, so uh here's the thing. What do you think Mark Mark, you I think like a lot of people, they put they're gonna put too much oil in the pan, right?
+
+[42:57] I completely agree with that. Yeah. You want a little bit so that you get good contact, but you don't want some think about it this way. No fond develops on the inside of your deep fry pan. And the reason is is because the meat is not sticking to the side of your deep fryer.
+
+[43:10] If the meat don't stick, then you must it quit or whatever, however the uh OJ reference for it works. If the meat don't stick, there's no fond, which is why you can't create a good fond in a nonstick pan. Agree with me here, Mark? Yes, that's true. So a little bit of oil in there and you drop the meat in and and don't move it, let it sit, develop the color.
+
+[43:29] Stuff needs to stick to the pan. Stuff don't stick, remember the OJ, there's no font. You know what I'm saying? Uh I think the other thing is is that usually when I'm doing it, uh I'm doing a bunch of meat in the pan and like and and in the same pan, and the first couple of pieces aren't ever as good as like the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, you know, when you're when you're doing multi, let's say you're doing a braise and you're doing the first couple are never gonna be uh as uh as good. Um I'm not I mean it needs to be hot enough to create uh the it needs to be hot enough to actually create the myard products that stick to the thing so in that sense if you overcrowd your pan and it never gets up to those temperatures then you're just gonna be you know steaming your meat and you're not gonna get a good fond but I mean I'm I'm also not one of these people who like puts like one little piece in and then because if if you underfill your pan then you're gonna burn the fond on the edges that have already been created.
+
+[44:23] So it's a it's a this is why like you need to start out hot once it's actually in steering mode you can torque back on it a little bit. And if you overcrowd your pan you you're not going to create a fond at all and if you undercrowd your pan you're gonna get burning of the especially around the edges of the pan if your flame is if you have a flame, if it's licking up or over on the sides. And burnt fond is nasty fond, am I right? That is true. Yeah.
+
+[44:45] So uh I always do it in this order I do uh meat first then uh then the onion product right do you always do the same way onions yeah but like after the meat right first then and then you can increase the oil a little bit and do the onions. If but if you're doing a meat only if you don't have that much oil you're not gonna get that problem with uh losing it all all the particles in the oil and and the second thing is is that don't scrape your pan when you're doing this stuff because you're trying to get the stuff to stick to the pan. So you shouldn't have too much stuff floating in the in the oil right or no? Yeah I think the main problem is using too much oil. The the main purpose of the the fat is just so that the meat doesn't stick.
+
+[45:27] Yeah yeah and I've never thought about uh I've never thought about I always salt beforehand when I'm doing these because it's always in braces, but do you think that affects it at all? The salting? I mean, I think it would pull protein to the it would pull protein to the surface and maybe get more protonaceous stuff onto the pan, which is going to make more fun. But I don't know for sure. Maybe someone out there knows.
+
+[45:47] What about cold? Do you do temper your meat or do you start it cold like right out of the refrigerator? I mean, it's interesting. I've never done a side-by-side, uh, but um, I mean, you and I both know that usually what happens is is you get the stuff out, you're doing your pre prep work, and then you sear on it. So it's never fridge cold by the time it gets into the pan, because I'm never that if I'm gonna be searing it, unless I'm doing low temp work, which sometimes I am, but I'm doing low temp work, then I'm very careful about keeping it cold while I'm doing my initial sear.
+
+[46:16] But if I'm doing a standard braise, I mean that stuff warms up. I don't even give a crap because I know I'm in fact I you know, like I'm throwing them in and out of the same buckets where I'm like seared, you know, the seared versus unseared stuff because it just doesn't freaking matter to me. Are you the same way or no? No, I keep it separate. You keep it totally separate?
+
+[46:33] Yeah. Even though you're gonna braise the hell out of it? Compartmentalized it. I know. Well, you know what?
+
+[46:38] That's the difference between like an actual pro and someone who came at being uh a semi-pro from the back end. You know what I mean? This is why people yell at me. So uh I'm told that I have to uh get the hell off of the air. So I have some questions.
+
+[46:50] Um I have one uh some interesting stuff actually uh about um soy, how to how to get a soy sauce flavor without soy that I'm gonna get to uh next week. Uh some low temperature bags, and also uh I have one uh maybe I can do I have like 30 seconds? Not really. Uh all right, so uh I'll also get to the uh care for non stick pans, how to clean them out. Hint Scotchbrite makes a non-scratch version that you can use in your Teflon in your uh nonstick pants.
+
+[47:16] And about Teflon in general next week on cooking Issues. Thanks to listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org.
+
+[47:43] Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family-run, eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit Rollin Press.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is your guest radio announcer, Phil Bravo here, live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. And now, Dave Arnold. Whoa, yeah!
+
+[0:49] Yeah, Phil. That's right. Joined not only by the inimitable voice of Phil Bru. His body, who cares? The brain.
+
+[0:56] Doesn't matter. The voice. The voice of Phil Bravo. Exactly. What is that?
+
+[1:06] A combination of humpback whale and Godzilla? What is that? It's an air horn. Well, Phil Phil's a huge gator fan. I'm sure he has stock in an air horn company.
+
+[1:16] I I absolutely do, and Vuvozela's exclusively. What's a is that at the brand of Airhorn to Beat? No, the Vuvuzela. It's the thing from uh South Africa from the World Cup. Yeah, too much.
+
+[1:24] Oh, that irritated the crap out of everyone? That's the one. Yeah, yeah. What kind of noise does that make? Uh it's like more like a kind of thing.
+
+[1:31] Uh Phil, by the way, teaches recorder to small children. Uh, and works at uh at the Hall of Carne car Hall of Carnegie, right? Yeah, well it's Carnegie, though. Carn Carnegie and uh Well, you know how Booker pronounces it, right? I know.
+
+[1:43] Carnegie. Carnegie. Carnegie. Which I think is fitting for what the guy did. You know, he's a robber baron, so Carnegie.
+
+[1:49] But then he gave it away. He invented philanthropy. Well, kind of Carnage Hall. Kind of. It's like, you know, uh I mean, we all like libraries and stuff, but I don't know that it's like I don't know it's okay to like kill ten people to give a third, you know, uh 11th person a book.
+
+[2:04] Hey, you know, it's uh you know uh whatever we call that. Yeah, carnage. Yeah. Uh but the uh look, I love the Robert Baron era, I do. I love it.
+
+[2:13] Uh also joined in the studio by uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Can you say the hammer in Phil voice? Oh, I can do a Nastasio the hammer Lopez. Oh yeah, and Jack in the engineering booth. Jack, you loving this announcement stuff?
+
+[2:26] Yeah, this is awesome. It's awesome. I mean, Phil, Phil, I'm not gonna make any insults about you personally. Your voice, though, built for radio. It's true, yeah.
+
+[2:34] I feel like I'm just here to like dance for you, Dave. Uh well, you well, one last dance before we get into some questions. And uh obviously, I don't know if you know this, uh, Phil, because Phil being a friend of uh Nastasha does not listen to this program ever. Sometimes I he listened. When we call him out, she fast forwards to the part where we're calling him out, and then you know, we've said some choice things about Phil in the past.
+
+[2:54] Uh but as you know, uh when you're on the show, like you're expected to chime in at various points, you know, no silent even announcing bystanders. Uh but before we uh before we go any further, can I please have sad Tony the Tiger? Oh no, see, this is the thing. You said sad Tony the Tiger. I could do happy Tony the Tiger.
+
+[3:13] No, you no, you'd have the best sad Tony the Tiger. You can do like a like you did this awesome one before. Ava Nastasia. They're great. I mean, you can do that.
+
+[3:25] Do the do the real Tony Tiger. Well, you have like what do you what do you want? Like, do you enjoy Frosted Flakes? I do. Frosty Flakes.
+
+[3:31] They're great. See what I'm talking about? You know what I'm saying? They're fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:41] That's a, by the way, uh, for those of you, and I'm not gonna make him do this because he only does this when he's way drunk at the Christmas time. But the voice of Tony the Tiger, the late great Thurl or Ravencroft, who uh was one of the lead uh uh kind of like novelty voices for Spike Jones, not the movie maker, the original musician, because Spike Jones, right? Who did, yeah. And uh also the voice, often misrepresented. The the Grinch, the real one, the cartoon one, not that BS Jim Carrey, you know, nonsense.
+
+[4:11] The voice was of course Boris Carloff of The Grinch. Everyone thinks Boris sang the song. Nope. Nope. That would be incorrect.
+
+[4:21] That would be Thurl Ravencroft. He also had a band, but I forget the name of it. I'm sure it was awesome. Wasn't he also the voice in Monster Mash? Uh that I don't know.
+
+[4:28] I think he was the It Happened in the Lab Late One Night guy. It would make some sense. Have you ever done that song in karaoke? I haven't yet, but now I know it's uh it'll I'll add it to the list. October's not that far away, Phil.
+
+[4:38] The band is the Melloman. The Mellow Mellon. Can you do me a favor, Jack, and check to see whether my man Thurl did uh the uh it was working in the lab late one night when when his eyes beheld a scary sight. I will look that up. Yeah, nice.
+
+[4:52] But it doesn't seem like it. You don't think so? I would think it's a good one. I'm searching, it doesn't seem like it. But the thing is it's not a question of whether or not because he was a he was a serious like session guy back then.
+
+[5:00] So his voice was used in a in a bunch of stuff, like commercials. I mean, a lot of the guys in uh, you know, in that business back then, they were just like, yo, Thurrell, we need someone with the low voice. Why don't you come and record something for me? You know what I mean? And that's yeah, I'm trying to basically uh fill fill that role.
+
+[5:14] So if anybody wants to want to call it Phil Bravo, that role. And the other thing, you know, like people like uh like some of the great music from the 70s, and I'm not just talking or like 80s, I'm not talking like, you know, the different strokes theme, which is fine as far as it goes, but I'm talking like Sanford and Sun. That's musically great stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. And you know, it's just like a bunch of like session dudes just showed up in the place when they're like burn, burn, burn, br, burn, br.
+
+[5:38] You know what I mean? And then that's it. That stuff was awesome. Rockford Files, intensely good tune. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:44] Session guys in the 70s laid down pretty much uh ton of good music, didn't get paid for. Yeah, we're about in this in the 60s. You got your mission impossible. That's in five, isn't it? Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
+
+[5:55] Yeah, awesome stuff. Although the new movie, they changed it to four. Yeah, because those D-bag remixing douches couldn't sorry, it's family program. By the way, Phil, it's a family program. Family program.
+
+[6:04] They're like, no one, no one can move the butts in in five. We've got to put it in four four. Gotta let it be in four four so the butts can move. It's Mission Impossible. Your butt's not supposed to move.
+
+[6:13] You're supposed to be on the edge of your seat wondering whether these guys are gonna get their faces blown off. Or ripped off as the case might be in uh in Mission Impossible. Exactly. Anyway, a lot of questions to get to. However, you can call into questions to 7184972128.
+
+[6:26] That's 71849728. Trying to try a little bit of the fill, but I can't go with low fill. I'm more like 7849. That's my my normal radio voice. That's a good Dave impression.
+
+[6:35] Yeah, squeaky, squeaky, squeaky McGigan. Uh okay. Uh got a call in from Philippe. Lately I've been making fruit juice meringues in the style of El Bully, which translates roughly to the bully. I'm kidding, it doesn't.
+
+[6:49] Uh El Bully's meat uh beat meat meringue. That'd be kind of awesome. Stars had an I've I for once wanted to be vegan face. That's the only time you've ever had the for once I want it to be vegan face. But you would like a beef broth meringue, right?
+
+[7:01] Uh in a savory pres. Like you have a savory presentation and like a little puff of like F fifteen? No, no. No? Mm-mm.
+
+[7:08] I mean, I've had Nori. You like Nori, right? Norian. I don't like the I don't like meringues. I really like You don't like sugar meringues?
+
+[7:15] I just don't like the texture. I never liked your F50 things. But you don't like also regular egg meringues? No, not really. What about like uh meringue on a soft meringue on a pie?
+
+[7:26] No. Don't like pies. You don't like pie? You don't like pie? I don't really like pies though.
+
+[7:35] You don't like freaking pie? I don't like hot fruit. Uh lemon meringue pie is served how jack? Not hot. Not hot.
+
+[7:42] Phil, what do they serve that? What's that other word I'm looking for? Cold. I'm gonna go for cold. Cold.
+
+[7:46] I'm gonna go for cold. I'll say fria. Yeah. What about key lime pie? It's not hot fruit.
+
+[7:51] What the hell? It's not hot fruit, it doesn't mean to be hot. You don't need to heat a pie. You know I don't like puff pastry. Uh what is wrong with you?
+
+[8:01] Yeah. I I'll eat it. I just don't like it. Well, uh chalk it up on the list of things. Like the only thing that Nastasha really enjoys sour catch goods.
+
+[8:09] Uh human pain. And pasta. And pasta. Yeah, but how do you not like pie? How do you like pie?
+
+[8:16] I'll eat it. But like a when you mention key lime pie, does it your key lime pie with a either a meringue or uh a whip topping? That's correct. So although I can eat it, I like it straight. I'm not just I can eat it.
+
+[8:28] I enjoy almost any form of key lime pie. I prefer not to have the fake green coloring in it. Uh oh, but by the way, uh Phil Florida. Florida. We were trying to get him here the day that Lenny was here because she hates all people from Florida, so we thought it might be awesome.
+
+[8:41] Yeah, we wanted we wanted not to tell her you were from Florida to see if she hated you. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna surprise. Oh, uh, you shouldn't. If you're from Florida, she doesn't really hate Florida people, you should still buy her product.
+
+[8:54] Uh I'll be actually in Key West in two weeks. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, living the dissolute lifestyle. Exactly.
+
+[9:00] What's that one song? Uh Largo. No, that's key largo. Montigo, yeah. No, no, you're she's thinking of uh it does say and the Florida keys.
+
+[9:07] No, no, she's thinking of uh we had it all just like Bogey and Bacall. Yeah, different. Yeah, you know, down where the tray winds blow. Say away to Key Largo. Key Largo, yeah.
+
+[9:15] Say it away to Keelago, don't get it through my head. My god. Nastasha hung out with the son of that singer. Apparently does not like references to that song. No, it gets angry.
+
+[9:24] By the way, Bacall's still having it all, not dead yet, which is awesome. I saw her on the street, like maybe she is now, but I saw her on the street like two years ago. It's like Laura McCall. Did you say hi to her? Of course not.
+
+[9:33] She she saw the look on my face and started shuffling a little faster. Get the hell out of my way. You know what I mean? Lauren Bacall, awesome. Okay, wait a minute.
+
+[9:40] We're back to the question here. Uh but uh again, I w you know, why don't we get any callers in? Oh, but say say Nastasha, what the hell? How do you not like pie or biscuits or puff pastry? Callers are scared of her, that's why.
+
+[9:52] Well, I guess with a nickname like the hammer. Right. You know, how can you not be scared? Um, okay. Um, in the style of the El Bullies beet meringue.
+
+[10:01] I don't think I'd like beet meringue, though. I think most beet juice products taste dirty to me. Like like Jasmine, like dirt. I am using centrifuged strawberry juice. First of all, I would say when you're making a meringue, what you really want is the uh see, because we I'll finish the question first.
+
+[10:19] I blend it with a s with uh isomalt and uh albumin powder. That's egg white powder for all of you people who don't speak albumin, and isomalt which acts like sugar but is not as sweet. So it's a semi sweet. But if you eat enough, it sure gives you the runzo because you can't digest it. But everyone's like, oh, I ate the ice malt and I poop my brains out.
+
+[10:38] And they're full of crap. They ate a little bit of isomalt and they think they're gonna poop their brains out. It's like the same thing with I ate two Olestra potato chips and my body was stripped of vitamin D and I was pooping all day. No, that's not how it works. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:44] But uh, anyways. Um having done these tests myself. Uh now, uh, I let that hydrate overnight, which is a good idea. Egg white uh powder needs to rehydrate for a long time. A lot of times people have trouble uh whipping the egg white powder, they just haven't let it hydrate long enough.
+
+[11:05] Uh and then I whip it. Give it some whip. Whip. Come on, Stas. I know you like that right now.
+
+[11:11] Whip. Uh whipped it to stiff peaks. I pipe little kisses. Do you hate that even more? Kisses.
+
+[11:16] Little kisses. Stas has her I hate kisses face on. Uh onto a dehydrate, dehydrate, dehydrator tray, and dehydrate. They are crisp within three hours. Do you like the word crisp?
+
+[11:27] Crisp. Uh they're crisp within three hours and they're nice and airy. Except as soon as I take them out, they go soft quickly. I realize this could be Oh! Oh, family program.
+
+[11:40] Family program. I realize this could be a humidity issue. Whenever anyone says humidity, I think of uh lethal weapon three where the guy goes diplomatic immunity and I say diplomatic humidity. And then like I imagine myself getting shot by uh with that glover, right? Uh no, no, it wasn't a Gibson that shot him.
+
+[11:55] Was it Gibbs in the shot? Someone will tell us. Um I could realize this could be a humidity issue. I keep them in a deli container with a silica pack. What can I do to keep what else can I do to keep them crisp?
+
+[12:06] Uh well, uh, you can just leave them in the dehydrator for as long as you want during service. So during service, what I would typically do is leave them in a dehydrator. But you're gonna want to turn your dehydrator way down. Way down. So, like if you're dehydrating, it, let's how do you say way down?
+
+[12:20] Say way down for me. Way down. Yeah. Uh so like uh if you're normally rocking somewhere between 135 Fahrenheit to 125 Fahrenheit, uh in that range, up to maybe 140, uh, you're gonna really blast them out if you let them go that long. But if you turn it down to like 100, 110, assuming your kitchen's not 110, you'll drive off, you'll keep the stuff uh from uh sucking up too much extra humidity, and you can just keep them for service in the dehigh.
+
+[12:44] Barring that, what I used to do is get uh mason jars and uh not the not the ones with the little crappy thin lids, the ones with the actual thick rubber seals, and I would put them in uh I would put the the products in mason jars in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum, and the lid gets sucked down when the air comes back in. Just make sure that the air coming back in doesn't puff the lid off the top, which you'll see what I mean when you do it. And they stay forever in those mason jars, and they don't require the silica packs, and you just open them as you go if you're gonna use a bunch for service. But if you need them to keep going during service, you can use a silica packs or the best way is to just have a dehydrator that you keep out there for service. Yeah?
+
+[13:18] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Try the F50 instead of the meringue. Try the F 50. But I wouldn't centrifuge the uh see.
+
+[13:24] Here's what's happening. Uh you're you're using the egg white powder to add the protein that you and and the structure that you you took out all the structure when you clarified the juice. So now it's just sugar with some flavor. And so you're adding the egg white powder so that it has the actual like structure that an egg white foam would have, because it literally is an egg white foam. And the sugar to add the bodying uh and the you know the kind of textural effects of the meringue.
+
+[13:47] If you just you if you just keep it uncle uh if you don't clarify the strawberries, you have all that pectin in there, and that pectin can help provide structure for the uh meringue itself. And then you could just use something like F50, and you wouldn't have to add any extra sugar if you wanted to keep them uh like less sweeter. Do whatever you want. I'm just saying there's alternate ways to do there's alternate ways to do everything, and then it's vegan, but not natural because metal cell ain't natural, baby, it doesn't come in the in the real life in the nature. Okay.
+
+[14:17] Uh a collar. A color. You're on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Johnny from Memphis. How you doing?
+
+[14:24] Doing all right. Um, I have a question about uh circulators. Uh-huh. Um after you cure an item, pork belly or whatever, and you wash the salt off. Um will it damage the circulator to like fill it up with the cured item with like cold water, 70 degrees or so, and put the circulator on like 90 Fahrenheit and let it rise up uh to 90 with the uh post-cured item in there.
+
+[14:57] Wait, see, see wait, so we're gonna get this straight before we go on. You want to you want to keep the item in water, not in a bag, and just have the actual thing circulating like kind of commando style in the in the bath? Correct. Like instead of uh rinsing the item, you know, after transition after the cure. I get you instead of like running water over it for a couple hours.
+
+[15:19] I get you um, you know, just bring it up to 90 degrees, change the water out, fill it up with cold water again, maybe two or three times. Right. What's your what brand of circulator do you have? Uh a polyfile, I believe it's a classic, just like the first one that came out. Metal?
+
+[15:37] Yeah. No problem. Here's what you do. Uh you're gonna want to wrap the cage in uh cheesecloth so that uh things like uh, you know, whatever you have in there, mustard seed or whatever, doesn't get sucked into the thing, because that can be a pain in the butt. Uh I've done it before I've circulated wood chips, I've circulated lobster shells and butter, I've circulated everything.
+
+[15:58] The the only thing you don't want to do is suck particulate matter in through the bottom of the bell because it clogs up quickly. I mean you you'll know when it gets clogged. Uh I've even done it with you know the new plastic guys, they're just a little bit harder to you know clean out. Um but yeah, I would I would go ahead. Because once you once the stuff gets into the bell, then you need to disassemble the bell.
+
+[16:22] If if if it stops, if you actually put enough particulates into the bell to stop the impeller from running, then you gotta open up the belt. Not the end of the world, but you know, you don't necessarily want it to happen. So I would just you you know make sure that uh you know that you normally if I'm gonna circulate spices in a bath like this, I stick the item in a cloth. And you can actually do that in this case. You can just take the cured thing, wrap it in cheesecloth, tie it, and you'll still get good circulation through, and you'll rinse you won't rinse off solids, but you'll rinse out um soluble items.
+
+[16:50] You know what I mean? Um but the the other alternative is to wrap the actual circulator itself so that nothing gets stuck in now you you you you don't want to wrap it such that you don't get good flow anymore. That's the that's the the flip side of it. Right. All right.
+
+[17:03] Thank you. No, also remember if if you want everything to rinse evenly, make sure to keep all of the pieces of meat slightly separate so that water can get in between them. As long as water can get even a little bit in between all of your stuff, you it's everything's gonna even out pretty well. But as soon as two blocks of meat get stuck next to each other, the parts that are stuck together might as well be the thickness of of the both things put together. There's no there's no action happening on them.
+
+[17:25] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I'll do it. All right, very good. Good luck. Let us let's know how it works out.
+
+[17:31] All right, appreciate it. Cool. Thanks. All right. Um wait so Stars, what's this question here?
+
+[17:36] What am I supposed to do? Uh don't worry about number one. So why'd you put it on the thing? Why do you tell you? What?
+
+[17:40] I was gonna tell you. Okay. All right, but you didn't. Alright. Thanks, all right.
+
+[17:45] We got uh this is from uh Brian Garrick. Do we know where you remember where Brian lives? No. No? Good job.
+
+[17:44] All right. Uh do you know where I could find a three to seven? I sorry it's not from Brian. This is uh this is from uh our boy B. Muncasey.
+
+[17:58] But where does he live? They don't say. They used to, and then we've Some do, some don't. Anyway, long time question asked. They put it on there, I put it on there.
+
+[18:06] Yeah, anyway, whatever. Do you know where we could find a three to seven day vacation cooking school to learn modernist techniques? Well, I mean, I used to teach those kind of classes. Uh the FCI or the ICC now, the International Culinary Center, might still teach those classes. Do they still teach us?
+
+[18:23] Does anyone know whether they still teach those classes? I don't know. Jack, do you know? Because Dorothy was on. Yeah.
+
+[18:28] I don't. I've kind of fallen out of that kind of you know, the cooking school world. But I'm sure Chef Steps probably does something. I don't know whether they do they do live classes. Do we know?
+
+[18:37] They probably do some sort of live classes, or if they don't, they'll probably would set them up. But the ICC, I'm sure still runs the low temperature cooking class that uh, you know, we used to teach. They may run still the hydrocolloids class that we used to teach. I know they don't do the Harold McGee class that that we used to teach because then he would call me and say that he was doing that class. And the but the other the other alternative is of course uh see what they got on the chef steps, right?
+
+[19:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Uh okay, and three, what would be uh appropriate streamlined scientific approach to figure out the best in quotes sous vide technique for bull peanuts? Do you uh coming from Florida? Do you like bull peanuts?
+
+[19:15] I love a boiled peanut. Yeah. I'm telling you. And it's more Georgia. Yeah, but like you ever if you ever go to Northern Florida, that's Georgia.
+
+[19:21] That's yeah, no, no, absolutely. Gainesville. Yeah, give me give me some give me some southern give me a bull peanut. No, I bull boiled peanut. Yeah, it's not boiled peanuts.
+
+[19:28] Bald. Bald peanut. I'm like, what the hell is it? Aren't all peanuts bald? I mean, they're kind of sure, no, no, sound boiled peanut, boiled peanut.
+
+[19:36] And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? The first time, by the way, that you've had a boil a boiled peanut, you're if you're from the north, uh, like I am, uh, you're like, this is gross. And then, you know what I mean? Do you like boiled peanuts? I don't think I've had one.
+
+[19:51] Magical. Yeah. So, but like, the first time you have it, you think it's gross, and it's part of the classic American uh not really American, it's kind of worldwide problem of people have expectations, and if something doesn't exactly meet their expectations, like, yeah, it's gross. You know what I mean? Uh, because we're like, peanuts are supposed to be crunchy.
+
+[20:09] You know what I mean? No, boiled peanut is not supposed to be crunchy. We forget that the peanut legume, peanut legume, and can be cooked uh as such. Boiled peanut tastes not like a peanut. So don't walk in.
+
+[20:21] If they just called them boiled sack of goodness, you'd be like, oh, those are really good. It's still sold by a guy out of a pickup truck on the side of the road, though. I think it still has the same issue. Well, I mean, in other words, like your two choices down there are those sausages that are soaked in that red goop with a red goop's gun on, like half the way through it, and the boiled peanut. I'd say the boiled peanut's the safer route.
+
+[20:44] Gonna go with you. Yeah, at least it's boiling. It's not in some vat with like a bunch of weird floaties that who the hell knows what it is. You're like, I think that floaties an onion piece. I'm not sure.
+
+[20:54] And he's like, Jig it out. I threw some uh boiled eggs in with the sausage vat. You're like, nah, nah. Nah. What's that called?
+
+[21:03] God knows. God knows. Like, you know what I'm talking about, though, Phil. Boiled vat. Yeah.
+
+[21:07] You know what I'm talking about. Uh, anywho, uh, the best scientific approach for a sous vide boiled peanut. Well, the first thing you gotta do is you have to decide exactly what constitutes a good boiled peanut for you. First thing I would do is is get a bunch of different kinds of peanuts to do it on. And you're gonna want to get like a good uh uh raw peanut variety.
+
+[21:23] I mean, obviously I'm partial, although who knows? Like, who knows whether Virginians are the best for boiled peanuts? I don't know, I haven't done the extensive study because you don't need them to be crunchy because they're not gonna be crunchy. But the Virginia peanuts are huge, and so they'll probably be good for boiled peanuts, right? So your first thing is they're gonna be gonna get a good set of uh a good a good supply of the peanuts.
+
+[21:41] Like that's gonna be your first thing. I mean, I'm sure like when you go to our Chinatown and you get the raw peanuts, they're still in shell, but they've been sitting there for like eight billion million years. Like, just like you know, growing that sweet, sweet aflatoxin. I'm sure that that's not gonna make the best boiled peanut, right? So then you figure out like, okay, okay, I got a good source of peanuts, and then you gotta, well, what do I want out of a boiled peanut?
+
+[22:02] What is it about a regular boiled peanut? Boiled, what is it about it that you didn't like? You know what I mean? And uh my guess, and you know, I've done this a long time. My guess, not boiled peanuts, but I mean cooking, uh low temp, is that the temperature control on the peanuts is not gonna be that important.
+
+[22:21] So the advantages you're gonna get out of going sous vide aren't gonna be from a temperature standpoint, they're gonna be from a flavor concentration standpoint because you're gonna be cooking them in substantially less water. Uh I don't think you're ever gonna want to do an out-of-the-shell boiled peanut because God didn't want boiled peanuts to be eaten that way. God wanted you to shell the weird kind of papery wet shell and then put them in that little bowl or throw them out the window of your car. Or just eat them. You eat the shell?
+
+[22:50] I eat the shell. Wow. Real southerner. I love that. That's where the salt is.
+
+[22:55] Wow. Alright. So, anyways, my point being figure out what it is you like about a boiled peanut. And then I wouldn't worry about temperature control. What I would do is figure on water level first.
+
+[23:04] I would choose I would choose without any spices at all. Three different uh water to peanut ratios in a bag. Uh I would uh do it uh at three different vacuum levels, one in a ziploc bag, and then oh actually, you know what? No, don't do plain water. Do salt so you can figure out salt penetration on this, get two tests out at once.
+
+[23:21] Choose the same salt level on uh for your brine, do three different brine ratios on the peanut and then three different vacuum levels on each brine ratio. Start with Ziploc bags, then a you know relatively full vacuum, like 99%, let's call it like 15 millibar, and then one where you suck the living crap out of it and then inject as much in almost like you were doing uh vacuum infusion. Cook those um those nine bags in at in simmering water at the same time for the same amount of time. Uh pull them out and test them and see whether you can see any difference between them in terms of salt penetration and in terms of peanut flavor. And from there on out, you're gonna start honing in on which of the columns and rows, you know, vacuum level and brine level that you like the most, and you can start honing in on uh kind of where you want it to be.
+
+[24:07] Once you've done that, then if you want to add spices, you can add them at that point to see how much kind of penetration you get through the shell. Then, yeah, fair? Mm-hmm. Take a break. Uh I can't I can't say it.
+
+[24:19] Guess announcer has to take us to a break. Uh and now we'll be taking a break. You're supposed to say coming right back with cooking issues. Oh, sorry. Uh we'll be right back with cooking issues, hi everybody.
+
+[24:50] I'm Phil Calicchio, the host of the Business of the Business here on the Heritage Radio Network. And this summer we are turning five. The Heritage Radio Network is five years old. Since our launch in 2009, we've continued to bring you food and culture content like nobody else in this business. And we need, and when I say need, I mean need your help.
+
+[25:12] HeritageRadio Network.org is a passionate, grassroots, action-oriented non-profit organization. And that means we depend upon the support of listeners like you to keep us alive. If you love what you hear on this radio station, the Heritage Radio Network, please visit our website and become a member today. Thanks for listening. Thanks for your support.
+
+[25:34] You gotta be economically sustainable. Help us out. Thanks. Bye. Today's program was brought to you by Rolling Press.
+
+[25:48] Rolling Press is a family-run digital and offset printhouse that brings together eco-friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service. Using environmentally responsible papers, non-toxic inks, and wind power, rolling press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and mindful sustainability. Rolling Press offers advice on reducing paper waste and energy consumption, helping you save money and minimize your carbon footprint. For more information, visit Rolling Press.com. Hi, I'm Reggie Watson.
+
+[26:16] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org. Welcome back to Cooking Issues with Dave Arnold and Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hey, Reggie Reggie Watts, got nothing on you. I love him. I mean, he knows how to.
+
+[26:28] I can't, you know, my favorite song I can't do on the air because this is a family program, but it's a sugar honey iced tea and then other kind of stack. This has not been a family program thus far, as promised. It is a family program. So uh Phil had a Phil, of course, saves his best story for during the break. So I give it a give a little 30 second uh shout out to your uh to your boy peanut friend.
+
+[26:48] Oh no, so I have uh I just have a very good friend who had a uh in this is in northern South Florida, kind of West Palm area, but would always drive home every day, and there was both the boiled peanut person who was also doubled as the shrimp guy, and he so he would have like shrimp just in the back of his pickup truck, and so it was always the internal debate of is it a bald also bull and bald peanuts. Yeah, but the shrimp also the shrimp were on i know the shrimp were on ice. They were just raw shrimp that you were buying to like bring home. Like he was just like your shrimp monger. So, like, is it okay to buy shrimp from the back of a truck on a random road outside of like Okeechobee?
+
+[27:20] I don't know. But it turns out Oh, it was great. Yeah. Like after a it was a long Facebook debate, and uh everyone everyone uh was on both sides of the fence. So the new the New York version of that is we used to have a mini meat packing district up at like about 125th Street near where the fairway is now on the west side.
+
+[27:36] And uh so when you used to come off the west side highway there, there would be dudes in white, not talking like 70s, 80s, I think maybe as late as the 90s, but I don't remember it when I was actually up there in the 90s for grad school. So it's like 70s, 80s kind of thing. Dudes would literally just be on the street, you'd pull off the West Side Highway and 125th Street. This we're talking about by the 24 hour McDonald's for any of you guys who know the neighborhood over there, and just standing out there with meat in their hands. Like meat, like a steak, like a raw steak, like on 125th Street, and you're like, I ain'm gonna buy a steak.
+
+[28:08] This is what Madonna was talking about when she said New York in the 80s, uh, you know, had more danger. And you know, it was the meat gong and meat guys at 125th. Well, the awesome thing is is like that's like the safest thing you could be doing is buying street steaks, uh, you know, at that at that time. Uh I miss the street steak. You know, it's like I don't like what I never knew was I never knew whether the guy was like, hey, oh Eddie, go out and sell some of these uh steaks.
+
+[28:32] They didn't pick up the order, they're gonna go bad. Or whether it was, I'm stealing these steaks, I'm gonna sell them because the boss is so drunk, he's not gonna notice. Yeah, right. I mean, I used to have a guy that that kind of happened like with uh parts for sculptures that I was building. So I would go to this place, and I I won't I won't call out who it is, but I would go to this place, and he used to basically, I'd be like, I need like um, I need like some bearings and some sprock, and I would get all this stuff, and you'd be like, Yeah, you come back in like uh half hour, meet me outside, but you know, um cash.
+
+[29:07] And then like he would give me these great discounts on like uh bearings and stuff. That's that's the way New York used to run. We were so much more like, you know, not like now. Yeah. It's like uh you need bearings?
+
+[29:19] I got a bearing guy. Yeah, I got a bearing guy. I got a guy that can fix that. But you know what? You're gonna want to bring some cash.
+
+[29:25] You know what I mean? And uh we're not gonna mention this. Um anyways. So uh let's get some of the questions I missed from last week, yeah? I'm gonna rip them out.
+
+[29:33] Pierre writes in, hey Dave, Nastasha and crew, and if you knew you were gonna be here, Phil, Pierre would have called you out as well. Thanks, Pierre. Uh thanks for all the great show so far. I'm just about ready to take the plunge and buy an immersion circulator from my home kitchen. Uh I don't even need to, I don't need to explain that anymore for our audience, right?
+
+[29:48] You know, they they cook things at a very accurate temperature, you know, most important, like culinary advance in the past, you know, couple hundred years, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh one thing I haven't decided on yet is the packaging method. After reading your Sous vide, it seems that the simplest way to get started uh would be with a Ziploc freezer bags. You are correct, sir. Uh however, I'm not sure how I feel about going through that much plastic in the long run.
+
+[30:13] Are there any decent reusable options out there? I've heard of people using mason jars for smaller items, but that hardly sounds practical for things like steak, unless you want them to be jar stakes. You know what I mean? I'd notice I didn't say Stas has the don't say tube steak look on her face. Oh, yeah.
+
+[30:30] Yeah, you did have the look. I don't know whether that's what you're thinking. But that hardly sounds practical or desirable. Not just practical, not desirable for things like steak. The only other option I've come across so far is the and how do you pronounce that Lek U thing?
+
+[30:43] The Lek you, whatever, uh silicon bag. Uh reviewers weren't too thrilled about the seal and the size, though. Any thoughts? Uh thanks, Pierre. Yeah, there are no good answers to your question uh yet.
+
+[30:53] I mean, if you're gonna there'sn't just no good answers to your question yet. I mean, I think people are working on it. Uh I know people are working on it, uh, but no one's come up with it yet. I don't like the the the resealable silicone, that's just gross. That's it's just gross.
+
+[31:08] Like having reused like uh zippies before, which is what we call the ziplocks and the trade, we call them zippies, go get me zippy. Remember when you're buying the ziploc bags. Do not buy buy the freezer bags, the storage bags are uh weak in the technical sense of the term. They're weak. Uh and uh not just in the they are puny and don't do a good enough job.
+
+[31:26] I mean, they are physically weaker than the uh freezer bags. Do not buy the ones that have the double layer of film. They suck. Also, do not buy the ones with the little uh zippy-doodle thing across the top, that little zippy-doodle, that that that slot racing zippy-doodle across the top. That's for people that what can't seal a bag like a human being.
+
+[31:46] And they don't hold uh uh a seal as well. So stay away from all of those things. Uh and you know, you could try those those resealable silicone jaws, but they're also thicker, so it's gonna take a little bit longer to get your heat transfer through them, yada yada. The people are working, let me just say people are working on it. Like in the next six years, there will be.
+
+[32:03] Here's my prediction. My prediction is this. Uh, and maybe I can get Phil to say it. In the next six years there'll be a biodegradable sous e bag. In the next six years, there will be a biodegradable Su V bag.
+
+[32:17] There you go. And so while we're waiting, if I were you, I would just stick with the uh with the polyethylene uh zippies, and don't worry, we will get around to saving the world in the next six years, right? Yeah, all right. Uh okay. Let's get some more of these uh questions that I missed from before.
+
+[32:33] We get some short ones, so I'm making a good I always you know what sucks is when I miss the short ones because like I sit around yapping for everyone and then uh you know, whatever. Uh hello everyone. Uh this is from uh Mildred Cady in Albany, New York. Uh I like when people tell me where they're from in a thing. You know, don't you like that, Phil?
+
+[32:49] The number people are from. I like that. If only Anastasia would uh would put that in there for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless it's unless it's Lena who doesn't want to know that you're from Florida.
+
+[32:58] Although she loves people who like gluten-free products from Florida. Those are the those those are the good kind of Floridines. They're the good ones. Uh I've been enjoying the show. This is uh this is uh Mildred actually.
+
+[33:09] She she she didn't enjoy the show, she had a uh a different question. Um I think wait now I'm getting all confused okay. Okay, I'm a new listener, but I've been avidly progressing through the back catalog of my daily commute. Uh I already love the show. I've been spreading the good word to others, so thank you for doing what you do.
+
+[33:22] I love eggs. I didn't answer this question alright, did I? Okay. Uh I love eggs and eat them near every morning. Good call.
+
+[33:28] The Incredible. Edible egg. There you go. I have a Volrath Steelcoat X3, 7-inch nonstick pan. They're starting to get a buildup of materials that don't seem to come off with dish soap.
+
+[33:40] And oh, this is not this is not Mildred's question. Shaq. This is uh Michael's question. I get all confused. You know why people?
+
+[33:47] Because I'm stupid. Uh this is Michael's question. Um with soap and hot water. Do you know what I could use to get it nice and clean again and still retain its nonstick properties? Uh or could you recommend a better nonstick pan for eggs?
+
+[34:01] So the question is like, I guess for eggs. Uh do you even like nonstick pans, Michael? Uh P.S. I saw the patty melt video uh that I did recently, and all of the home kitchen. I don't have that kitchen anymore.
+
+[34:10] Styles like my new kitchen better. Uh and your zero compromise approach. Uh Stas definitely hates my zero compromise approach. Um okay. So the deal with nonstick pans is um they have uh a coating on them, and what you don't want to do is uh scratch the coating because that's that's the kind of what you don't want to do.
+
+[34:25] So uh I mean, quick and simple, like just go buy Scotch Bright pads. Uh let the pan soak for a little if you have deposits on it. Like certain things are gonna stick to a nonstick pan. So, for instance, like the the one thing that I have that is completely nonstick, and I I don't I have one regular nonstick pan, one. It was a scan pan, I've beaten the crap out of it, and it's useless now.
+
+[34:47] I use it only to cook things that I don't care about. Like, this is gonna sound bad. Like bacon. I don't really care how bacon cooks because I don't cook tilapi I don't cook tilapia at all. I cook that using my garbage can.
+
+[34:58] Like, that's the best way to cook tilapias with the garbage can. But the um the uh, you know, speaking of tilapia, uh I am going to be at uh Toron in Toronto tomorrow, uh doing the Toronto International Food and Film Festival or something like this. TIFF, not TIFF, the uh the graphics format, but TIF the Toronto International Food and Film Festival. And so like is this hilarious? Uh so the person who set it up that like they're like you could they're gonna ask you why you chose the movie.
+
+[35:24] I'm like I didn't chose you chose the movie for me. Don't you remember? But no anytime you do something you have to pretend that you chose the movie. So the movie I'm doing is Soil and green. And so what I'm just gonna say is that tilapia is like right it's one of the soilants.
+
+[35:35] You know how there's multiple soilants there's like soil and red, soylent you know soylent whatever and soylent green. It's green by the way I don't want to spoil the movie for you. It's made of people it's the only one that's made of people apparently well who knows we don't ever figure out what the other soylants were made of. Tuesday is a Soil and green day by the way in the movie. Like you get the different soylents on different days.
+
+[35:54] Oh okay anyways. It's like a six minute warning. Oh Jesus uh tilapia right up there. Um right up there. Uh okay uh so uh but the one thing that you do need to have non stick is your waffle iron.
+
+[36:08] So like I have a boatload of cast iron sizzles that I use sizzles like uh you know little sizzle pans that I've used for you know well over a decade and right now like I use them exclusively for eggs but they've been uh you know I seasoned them well the first time around and I use them constantly and I keep them in good shape and so you know they're amazing for eggs. Uh but you know your waffle iron uh the amount of time it takes to get it properly seasoned so that a waffle actually releases from them is longer than I have patience to do. And so uh I've tried using cast iron waffle irons and they suck this by the way do you know that's why waffles have such a high fat content in the old recipes, is they were built for uh old school cast iron waffle irons, and so they need uh a uh an abundance of oil to release properly. And a modern waffle recipe doesn't need qu nearly as much uh oil in it just for organolectic properties to get it to uh to work. And so you can, you know, that's one little known fact about waffle recipes.
+
+[37:07] I don't cut the fat down because I don't care. Uh but anyway, so like uh but those like if you make the mistake of putting blueberries in I mean, not taste mistake, they're delicious. Although he's not gonna like waffles, right? No, I do. Uh whoa.
+
+[37:19] Uh put blueberries in your waffles, they will burn onto the non stick because the sugar will stick and burn onto the nonstick, and that is a business to get off of that uh thing. So I I feel where you're coming from. So, what you want to do is like soak it in water a little bit, buy the specific Scotchbrite pads that are made uh to be non-stick. I mean, sorry, to be non-scuffing. They make specific non-scratch scotch bright pads that are made for non-stick pans.
+
+[37:43] Don't believe anything anyone says about it's okay to use metal utensils. The particular one you have has steel uh particles mixed in with the non-uh stick coating, and the idea being that when you're scraping a spatula across it, it won't get damaged as much because the steel on steel will resist, and so that's why they do that. They also have one that's one level above yours, where instead of steel particles they use slightly more expensive ceramic particles, and everyone now is moving away from Teflon so that uh because because apparently it can release uh PFOA or periphlo perfluorooctinoic acid, and people are worried it's gonna cause cancer. So people are moving away voluntarily from using Teflon in their pants. Hopefully, by 2015, they're supposed to have uh people are supposed to voluntarily have taken it away.
+
+[38:24] But anyway, uh there you have it. Is that a good good answer? Semi-good answer. Okay. Uh now on to Mildred's actual question.
+
+[38:31] Uh I'm gonna have to do it quickly. I've been enjoying the show and working through the back episodes uh because I've been enjoying it so much. I'm writing because I have a dilemma. I'm currently living with my two best friends, conveniently they're married to each other. He's half Korean and cooks like it, and she's allergic to soy sauce and other forms of soy.
+
+[38:45] Uh soy. By the way, soy lent, supposed to be a mixture. I I heard of soy and lentils. Soy lent. Uh not soy that you eat in Lenten times.
+
+[38:55] Um he has a Korean BBQ sauce marin uh uh marinade. That's three-quarters soy sauce that we all miss him being able to make. So I'm looking for a soy sauce substitute that can be made in bulk. She doesn't like fish sauce, which is one of the more common Asian umami sources after sources after soy sauce. She barely tolerates Worcester sauce because she can tell it has anchovies in it.
+
+[39:15] Yes, you can. One thing you could do is get wheature sauce, spin it in a centerfuge, and the anchovy drops to the bottom. But you need a centrifuge for that. Uh we tried Vegemite slash marmeat since it's another fermented grain condiment, but it's so thick we've had problems thinning it enough for a sauce because uh we lose the umami tone. Do you have any suggestions?
+
+[39:31] Or did I already kill the other options? Thanks for your time and keep it uh awesome. Mildred Katie from Albany, New York. Okay, here's some quick things because Jack's gonna rip us off the air in a couple minutes. Uh if you have money to spend, uh coconut aminos, which you can get in uh the Whole Foods are pretty good, and they're like some sort of like fermented coconut product, and they don't contain soy.
+
+[39:51] Uh I believe Bragg's uh liquid aminos do contain soy, so you have to stay away from those. Um another thing is make some of the old school fermented mushroom uh sauces. So if you go look up any of the old uh like like catch ketchup like recipes, like from uh from like George Washington Times, uh you they have like mushroom ketchup recipes that uh you can look up, and those um can be fermented, and you can and you can get them to you because mushrooms already have a lot of umami, so then when they when they're cooked and then uh allowed to steep and do their own business, you know, you you you can get that much out of it. You could you could also use them as a fermentation source to make your own Worcestershire sauce as opposed to something like anchovies and fish look Worcestershire sauce is the modern equivalent of a fish sauce for British tastes they also have a really other one could called uh the gentleman's relish pipperums whatever it's like it's like anchovies and butter and pepper mixed up in a little tin. Can say gentleman's relish for me please it's a gentleman's relish.
+
+[40:50] Oh yeah but I let my wife have it anyway stuff's good uh so uh try one of those things and you know anything that has some form of substrate uh with proteins that uh breaks down over long fermentation period you're gonna be able to get those nice uh umami things but think mushrooms uh think coconut aminos uh and uh you know work with it and those things are a good although you know what you gotta get is is it I forget is it is it the it's the wife that doesn't like the the that can't have the soy and doesn't like the fish right I think so yeah I would just do like a little bit of fish sauce every day and just work her up to that sucker because fish sauce is yo delicious and you can also look for this uh Japanese fish sauce called ishiri the ones made not don't tell her made exclusively of squid guts that stuff tastes like liquid meat oh another thing people sorry not to blast your ears out uh another thing uh people do is they make soy substitutes by using concentrated uh broth like bullion if it doesn't taste the same but you know uh what they're really doing there is jacking the MSG so it's like another thing you could do just saying is add something like like that has a little bit of that protein amino action and then a little bit of the MSG. But Nastasha is one of the people that think she's allergic to MSG. By the way, you know, I have a capsule uh remember we yeah, we got the cap we got this let's write in if you give a crap about this. But they have the we we bought a gelatin capsule packer or or vegetarian, you don't have to be gelatin' uh for the event we did in uh at UCLA. And uh we were thinking of actually doing a double blind radio, like male uh double blind placebo controlled uh MSG study with our own packed gel caps where like I would pack them with numbers on the packets, Stas would mail them out to people, and then we get reports back on the radio.
+
+[42:33] And I know it's not scientific because I can't control whether you guys are liars or not, but I feel that our radio listeners are good people and they won't cheat, right? And then we could have like a uh it's not legal also because I'm not allowed to do research, but if we're just having fun, then we're just having fun. Do we have the insurance for this, Shaq? Uh yeah, sure. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[42:52] So what I'm saying is is like if if if there's if there's interest in this, we could run a uh controlled uh thingamajig. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't have three minutes?
+
+[43:00] No. I don't have three minutes. All right, so let me just go over the list of questions that I didn't answer and we'll have to answer next time. Oh, jeebus. No, jeebus.
+
+[43:09] This is how we're gonna end the shows from now on. Simon, Simon, I s I swear on several stacks of Bibles. Your question on um your question on carbonation will be the very Simon from the UK. Well I might be there in November for the book. Okay.
+
+[43:23] I don't know. Uh will be the very first question that I'm gonna answer uh next time. Nastash hopefully will remember to tell me that. And we had uh two qu uh a couple questions we didn't get to today. One on shad berries.
+
+[43:34] They had a question on mulberries. Uh listen, the trick with mulberries is uh I'll say really quickly, I'll do it more in in depth next time. I'm gonna get to the ice cream question uh that that's also here that I didn't get to. Uh but on mulberries, uh when you're looking for mulberries, uh the problem with mulberries is the black mulberry and the white mulberry hybridize very readily between each other. So a lot of the mulberries you see on the street here are combinations of the two different mulberry varieties because they so readily hybridize, and the taste is radically different from tree to tree.
+
+[43:59] Sometimes even within a tree itself, you'll get tasteless mulberries and mulberries that have a good acid balance. So what you need to do is wander around the city, and stars and I did this one year. Uh we wander around the city, and whenever you see a mulberry tree, taste one. If you like that mulberry tree, go back there next year. Get everything you can, and then go back uh next year.
+
+[44:16] But you cannot judge a mulberry tree by the first even five trees that you taste. And that is Phil Cooking Issues with Dave Arnold. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[44:44] You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:19] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Kicking Issues, coming to your live reverse pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, mostly every Tuesday. We missed last Tuesday because I was teaching oh, from 12 to 12 uh 45 ish. Anyways, calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:55] That's 718-497-2128. So Stas, while I'm calling up today's questions, why don't you tell them what we did last week? We did uh we you taught a uh class on carbonation with Shibis uh at the Nomad Hotel. Which is a nice place. Yeah.
+
+[1:10] And Stas does what she does best in these uh situations, which is sit in the background and just shake her head disapprovingly the entire time. She's like, listen, I've heard she doesn't talk like this. She's right next to me. You can hear her talk. Well, I've seen you do this demo eight thousand freaking times, and everything new you had is wrong.
+
+[1:29] Right? Is that pretty much what that's how you feel, right? No. It's the same anecdotes that you talk about. Like what?
+
+[1:35] Oh, like just your trials with carbon. Like, well, I have to tell them specifically, but I just on the radio, I try not to repeat. But like if you have a specific thing to say that illustrates how not to carbonate, right, then uh what's the matter? You got a bug bite or something? Right now.
+
+[1:53] Like jump down. What's up? Heritage Radio Network. I don't believe you. Uh it is true.
+
+[1:59] There have any of you been to Nogales, Mexico? Like, it's like we're a warehouse for Nogales, Mexico blankets right now. Like Mustaza City. Nogales is uh unfortunately, no offense to Galas, but it's the only place in Mexico that I've ever been, and I'm trying to rectify that as soon as possible. Go to what I would consider real Mexico.
+
+[2:18] It's like, what's fake, what's fake US? Like, if someone were to come to the US and they're like, this is all they saw, you'd say, Yeah, you haven't been to the US. What would that be? Hmm. Newark?
+
+[2:27] No offense to Newark. Like, what if you landed in what if you flew into Newark Airport? What if you flew into Newark Airport? No offense, Newark. You know, I used to live in Jersey holding on whatever.
+
+[2:37] But what if you landed in Newark Airport and we're like, okay, I'm here. And it's got the closest hotel to Newark Airport, and that's where you stayed the whole time. Sounds like a fun trip. Jack, tell Dave about what email you got today. All right, what'd you do?
+
+[2:49] Oh, yeah, I got a promotional email from like Orbits or something. And it was like, hey Jack, pack your bags. You're going to New York. Oh, geez. Hey, here's a here's an interesting fact that may or may not be true about packing your bags.
+
+[3:02] Uh I see that that is what we call bad uh cookie editing, bad kind of data sifting to try and give you a trip. Tell me about it. All expenses paid uh on the L train, huh? Pig who $2.50. A little bit of a discount if you have the Metro card.
+
+[3:16] Anyways. So uh you familiar with the private browsing thing? I'm sure you are, Stas, because your whole family's paranoid about being tracked. No, I don't know. So on your Mac and other things, you can hit a button that basically says that your browser is no longer going to store cookies.
+
+[3:31] And like, you know, nine out of ten people, they use it for the porn, so they their porn can't be tracked. Right, Jack, you're familiar with this, right? Yeah, yes. Not the porn necessarily. Well, I mean, not necessarily.
+
+[3:42] The incognito window. Yeah, so I don't know if this is true. I'd like to hear something from any uh any SEO folks out there. But uh apparently, if you uh go to look up uh an airplane flight to Mazadlan or Acapulco, something that's talking about if you go look up a flight to there, and you're like, nah, I'm not gonna buy it right now, and you go back like five days later to look at it. On no, no, no, on your regular computer, yeah, the prices are higher.
+
+[4:06] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, no, I haven't seen that. It's because they're tracking you and they know you want to go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you log in with private browsers, browsers for money, browse what you want me to browse, then they give you the old price again.
+
+[4:17] That's crazy. That's disappointing about the world. That's so used car salesman. No offense to people who sell used cars. There's many honest ones.
+
+[4:25] But it's like, you know, why are you shafting me? Because see, this is why everyone's like, I'm gonna keep looking at the prices because they think that that's like a good thing to do. And they're looking at you looking at the prices and hosing you as a result. So we got a cool uh auction here to uh help benefit uh Heritage Radio Network. This programming uh is free for you, but not free for us to produce.
+
+[4:46] So we have uh bid to win a day at the Modernist Cuisine Cooking Lab in Bellevue, Washington, with Nathan Mirvold and the Modernist Cooking Crew, one of the most visionary food technology and business leaders of our time. This is a once in a lifetime chance to experiment in the kitchen yourself with Nathan Mirvold and his team of chefs, chemists, physicists, and machinists. Peruse new cooking innovations, ask all of your burning questions and questions about burning, and bring home a signed copy of the photography of modernist cuisine. Place your bid on this package on charitybuzz.com now. Let's get to some of last week's questions.
+
+[5:20] Brian Garrick wrote in about shad berries and ice cream. Hello, cooking it's use team. Hope you're staying cool and dry. I am not. I am a big pile of sweat, although I was telling styles.
+
+[5:28] I made it in re I mean late as usual, but record time for me. I made it. You ready for this? Not door to door, computer to radio. Computer to radio in 15 minutes from my house.
+
+[5:39] So you left at 11 55. 53. Yeah, yeah. How'd you do that? Uh well, I've I I feel like I'm I'm melting like the wicked witch of the west right now.
+
+[5:51] But I just I just like I made sure that I was putting just as much power into the upstroke because I got straps on my on my bike uh as I did into my downstroke, and it's like I felt like people on the bridge were standing still because I was so anxious because of how late I was. But you know, I was I I've been cooking all morning. I was cooking all morning and doing the radio questions. Wow. So give me a give me a break.
+
+[6:10] Give me a freaking break. Made a lot of cocktails this morning. Not to drink. Not to drink. I wasn't drinking.
+
+[6:16] I was like, ah no, but I made uh some of the cocktails from uh the book actually for this thing I have to do tonight. And uh did you ever have the vermouth in the freezer cocktails, the vermouth blender cocktails? So I'll give you the basic outline. You have to buy my book for the exact recipe. Ooh, no, um so you take I've it's called ebony and ivory, and I got I got a Dolan Blanc from Mouth, which is you know the semi-sweet white Dolan, and uh I mix that one with a little bit of vodka up to proof, water, and lime juice, pinch of salt, right?
+
+[6:47] And you get the alcohol level right so that when you put it in zip, just like the Italiano styliana, when you put it in a Ziploc bag and throw it in the freezer, it turns into like a slushy drink in your freezer without you having to do anything. And then the other one, that's that would be the ivory. And the ebony is carpano, a little bit of vodka and uh water, pinch of salt. And you'd say you serve them mix it. No, no, no, you serve them side by side in perfect harmony.
+
+[7:08] Yeah. Paul and uh what's his name? What do you mean, what's his name? I can't remember. Stevie Freakin' Wonder.
+
+[7:14] Oh, yeah. I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna get into it. Stevie Wonder, one of the Jack, one of the greatest modern musicians like that ever, right? I mean Stevie? Yeah.
+
+[7:23] Oh yeah. I mean, you know what people get all pissed because uh, you know, kind of like the jungle fever and plus era of his life. But if anyone that I'd ever met had come up with any one album when he was in his prime, any one of those songs, like Boogie on Reggae Woman, if you come up, if it's almost like you were one hit wonder, you're like, yeah, but it was it was Boogie on Reggae Woman. You'd be like, alright. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:48] Because that's that stuff's just so awesome. Anyway, Brian Garrick, Shadberies. Uh oh, yeah. God, I go on tangent. Do you want to take a caller first before jumping in there?
+
+[7:57] Sure, sure, okay. Callers on the line. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Uh, thanks for taking my call.
+
+[8:02] This is Garrett in uh San Diego. Oh, nice, what's up? Um, I was just um I was thinking the other day, I am a fan of cottage cheese. I like cottage cheese, and I also like goat cheese, and I looked to see if they make a goat cottage cheese, and I couldn't find anything. Um have you ever heard of this?
+
+[8:21] Or is it even possible? And what are the differences between, I guess, goat milk and whatever they use in cottage cheese? I guess cow, maybe sheep's milk? Huh. You know, I like I mean, I eat a lot of cheese, but I'm not really an expert uh on the manufacture of cheese.
+
+[8:39] Um, you know, my guess is that you could probably do a mixed milk one, because there's a lot of mixed milk cheeses that uh have um curds that work like uh curds that work somewhat like cow's milk. Uh but I mean, just my experience with fresh goat cheese is that it's got a very different kind of paste and that you have to age it for a long time. But I could be totally wrong. You know what I mean? But I would guess that if you fortified it with cow milk, you could get it to work.
+
+[9:11] This is something that you know what we should what we should do, honestly. Jack, are you listening to this? I'm here. We should get can can you post a question in to uh uh cutting the curd? Absolutely.
+
+[9:23] And then we'll we'll we'll get their response and then we'll read it back uh on the on the air next week. That'd be awesome. You want to do that? Yep. You alright with that?
+
+[9:30] Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. I'd really appreciate it.
+
+[9:33] I mean, you're right. The only fresh goat cheese that I know of has a much more chalky texture. Not really cottage cheeky, but so what I mean, like if you had uh like all the delicious mixed milk cheeses from uh Italy. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:48] So those mixed milk cheeses can have like textures that are in between any of those, you know. And I've had very aged uh goat cheeses that have so only goat that have a fairly solid texture. But I've never had a fresh goat cheese that has a cottage cheesy like texture. And so I don't know whether it's possible. But what we'll do is I'll do a little bit of research.
+
+[10:07] Well, Jack's gonna get a response this week. He's gonna email it to me, and then uh uh once I get that I'll do a little separate research on the all the technical literature that I uh steal access to, and then we'll reconvene next week with the answer. Sound good? Yeah, right on, that'd be great. And um, if you have a quick second, I have one more non food related question.
+
+[10:25] Uh oh, what do you got? Uh what what kind of bike do you ride? Oh, okay. So uh I used uh I ride here's the thing. Uh in New York City, you know, we have to have those giant kryptonite chain locks or your bike gets stolen.
+
+[10:39] Oh, yeah. So the lock weighs roughly what my bike would weigh, right? Plus, you have to carry the the keys, and then you have to sit there and you have to string the the chain through all of the stuff. So I made a decision uh long time ago that I was not gonna ever lock my bike ever. And so the answer therefore is that you need to get a folding bike.
+
+[11:02] So I bought a uh a folding bike called a down tube, which is really cheap because you I'm a cheap bastard, stuff, right or wrong. Oh right. So cheap. Uh I'm a cheap bass. So I bought this down tube, it got fairly good ratings.
+
+[11:12] Uh and uh I proceeded because I would throw it in my closet when I got home to uh completely uh destroy the derailler every day. So I was throwing my chain like you know, three times a day, and I got so irritated that uh you know, I was like, crap on this. I'm ripping all of the gears out, and uh I'm gonna make it into a single speed. But then I was like, you know what, the hell with it, because it's gonna be crazy anyway. I'm just gonna go full stupid, and I made it uh fixed fixed gear folder on 20s.
+
+[11:42] It's riding 20 inch wheels, which by the way, people don't look into the physics of it. In a New York City ride, if you're doing a lot of stop and starts, the 20s are as fast or faster than unless you're gonna buy really high-end uh full size jobs. Anywho, so I was like, ah, I'll turn it into a fix, because why not? Because I can I can do it. And then I got kind of addicted to the fixing, but I leave the brakes on because I'm not one of those guys, right?
+
+[12:03] The brakes and uh and then uh the problem with the down tube is is that the the uh you know the steering is so high up on a cantilever that because you're fixed you start really, really, really hard. And so I snapped on going down to Williamsburg, I snapped the uh steering off and then had to negotiate going down the Williamsburg Bridge with it with a sta snapped uh uh column there. And so and then I so I was like, uh I got another one of that because it was under warranty, snapped it again. So I was like, crap on this, and now I ride uh Azuter Swift, which has a guaranteed for life frame. Uh I used to ride really thin Schwabies uh on the on the I ride regular, like they're custom wheels, but they're not real, they're like regular velo rims, and then with uh I ride Schwabi Schwabby uh uh big apples just because uh I used to ride thin and I was a little bit faster, but you know, I've seen too many people wipe out on those thin guys if any if any crap gets on the road that I was like the hell with this, especially with the with the 20s.
+
+[13:00] It's really easy to wipe out, so crap on I got wider things. But it's still, and I have those I have that weird butt-friendly seat. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[13:09] So that's what I it's still it's modified. It's modified beyond being fake, whatever, but yeah, that's what I read. Cool. Thanks very much. I uh I figured you'd have a pretty interesting bike.
+
+[13:19] Yeah, it's weird. I mean, if the bike the bike snob would have a field day with my bike, I'm sure, but uh if any of you guys read the the bike's not, but anyway. All right, thanks again for taking my call. All right, thanks. All right, so back to uh Brian uh uh and shad berries and ice cream.
+
+[13:32] Okay. Uh noticed that you tweeted a recipe for a drink special that contains shad berries. Uh it's fruit picking time around here, and I've never had one. Where can I find them and how can I identify them? Uh also there are tons of mulberries around New York that are ripe for picking.
+
+[13:43] It's a little old. The shad berries are gone now next year though. I'm also I think they're the same as June berries, but I'm not sure if I think people might call service berries something else. Look, they're on a tree. I can recognize it when I see it, but it's hard to describe.
+
+[13:54] Uh once you identify it, you're gonna identify it uh forever. So they're purple, they're go red to dark purple when they're ripe, berries. They're on a tree that bears alternate leaves, of course, um you know, nine tenths of trees, other than you know, maples, ashes, and uh you know a couple others, uh dogwoods, uh are alternate, so yeah, that's not much of a help. It's the finely serrated kind of elliptical leaves, also not very much of a help. If you look at the berries, they look a little bit like a blueberry, and they have that I guess it's a calyx thing coming off of it.
+
+[14:25] But if you just look up in a couple of books, um you can see the variance of it. And once you see it, you like once you see it once, you like you get it, and that's it. Uh and there's uh a patch of them on Eldritch Street near the uh the short like housing buildings there uh in the in the lower east side, if you want to see them, but the berries are all gone on those anyway. And they have an astringent uh kind of uh acidic taste that I like because if you mash them and let them sit on the skins a while before you spin them off, they pull up uh a little bit more tannin than uh like a blueberry, a little bit more musky, but not probably as tannic as cassis. Uh they're good.
+
+[15:01] I like them. You've had them before, right, Sass. Anyway, uh so mulberries. Um any favorite spot to get some mulberries, any good techniques for picking them. They're so fragile.
+
+[15:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh a technique is to get someone else to pick them for you or wear gloves, but don't, because that looks dumb. If you're walking around the city picking berries with gloves, what do you think about it? If you see it, if you see a dude picking berries with gloves in the street, what do you say about it? I don't know.
+
+[15:20] I've never seen it. I don't know. I I mean, I don't know. We'd be like, what the hell is that guy doing, right? Yeah.
+
+[15:26] I don't know. Skip it. Well, it does stay in the hell out of you. Um, I spotted a few peach trees uh and sour cherry trees. I would I can't have the sour cherries.
+
+[15:35] I'm eager to pick them too. What's the best way? I don't have a fruit picker. Any way to make when it works. That's an interesting question.
+
+[15:40] Probably for things like uh peaches, you could you know get like uh like they they make fruit picking basket things, but then you have to fix it to the end of an extendable pole. That I wouldn't mind looking like a lunatic around. Hey, whoa, whoa what are you doing up there? Oh, I'm picking peaches. What's wrong with you?
+
+[15:55] Uh the mulberries, uh, a good place to pick them that's pleasant to go to is uh uh in the park that's off of 158th Street and Riverside Drive. You go over to the river on the west side and you walk up, and there's a bunch of they have a sh boatload. I was about to curse, they have a boatload of uh of Juneberry Shabberries there, but then they also have a bunch of mulberry trees up in that area, and there's a bunch just scattered around the city. There's some in the parks that are up Allen Street, uh, or is that Christie? You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[16:20] It's Christy. It's Christy Forsyth, right? Uh and we found a good one near what restaurant we always used to go to where we found one where we used to eat with Maria. There was a really nice one there. Oh, yeah.
+
+[16:31] Can't remember. Anyway, my recommendation, like I said before, is to pick, and I'm too stupid to do this, but you gotta have a long view on this. So pick a couple of berries this year and then mark the tree. Like take a picture and geotag it or whatever. Like, oh, this is the good one, and then you can go back and get it the next year because uh they I mentioned this uh last week when I started talking about your question.
+
+[16:53] Uh that mulberry trees are extremely variable in fruit quality. Uh so anyway, so that's what that's what that's what I would say. Ice cream question. Jenny Bauer from Jenny Splendid Ice Creams uses uh a milk filtration technique. Uh, and then this is a paraphrasing of it.
+
+[17:08] Uh start with raw, grass-fed, uh, grass pasture milk from the cows right at the dairy. Milk comes in and we separate it uh into a center uh in a center fusion to heavy cream and skim milk, as per usual. The cream goes into a tank. Uh when I go to the dairy, that's the first place I go. I take a ladle and sip it, foamy, like slightly whipped cream.
+
+[17:25] Okay. Uh the skim milk then goes through a nanofiltration system, uh, which is uh this is uh quoting I think Jenny Bauer in Food and Wine. Food and wine did uh uh an article called Lessons from Jenny Brittenbauer, and this is the quoted from that. Uh and this is really cool where old technique makes modern. The filtration system runs the milk across a membrane multiple times to remove about 60% of the water.
+
+[17:46] Water's not good in ice cream because it makes it icy. Removing water also concentrates the proteins to give it more body and texture. We're working with two proteins, the casein uh and whey proteins, which gives great smoothness. So then we take the concentrated skim milk containing proteins and uh lactose and mix it back with the cream to give us a base of about 15% butter fat, perfect for ice cream. It's still raw and not been cooked, so then we add sugar and batch pasteurize at 175 degrees.
+
+[18:09] Uh ultra pasteurized milks are heated to 300 plus, and they shoot them through a tiny pipe, which strips a lot of the flavor out. And uh anyway, batch pasteurization gives the milk a nice cooked custody flavor and bonds the water to the proteins, butter, fat, and sugar. I don't know if I believe that, but I don't know. I don't know exactly what she means by it. Uh then we shoot it through a homogenizer while it's still hot.
+
+[18:26] So if the butter fat is melted and looser, we homogenize it to make the butter fat molecules. I think she means like you know, the my cells the same size as all the other ones. Uh and if we didn't, all those big butter fat molecules would find each other and make butter. The homogenizer shoots it through, uh blah, blah, blah, blah, yaky schmackity. Uh yakity yakkity yakity.
+
+[18:44] Um, and then she she spins it and then they pack it all by hand thousands a week. And she says there are machines for packing, but they uh require a much thinner ice cream, so it never freezes up the same way that ours do. Okay, so now back to the question part of it. This is not the quote anymore. She recommends that at home we should boil the milk for ice cream base for four minutes.
+
+[19:02] The boiling is key. It evaporates excess water like our nanofiltration system, like pasteurization, it bonds uh sugar and fat to the water and it denatures the whey proteins to make them smooth. Uh then you add uh cream cheese to mimic the thickening of homogenization to bulk up the body, and then they Food and Wine did an article where they tested it. Uh, isn't it just easier to add, and then your question is isn't it easier to add powdered milk to the base? What's in cream cheese other than stabilizers?
+
+[19:25] The powdered milk doesn't have well you know, other than stabilizers, there's a boat ton of stabilizers in cream cheese. That's why it's so smooth. If we've ever had non-stabilized cream cheese, it's really kind of grainy, which I actually like. The best uh cream cheese that I've ever purchased is uh bought at Russ and Daughters, and it's completely non-stabilized cream cheese, so it only lasts a couple of days, and it's kind of grainy, but it has such kind of amazing texture. No offense to Philly.
+
+[19:47] In fact, Booker, Stas, you appreciate this. Booker hates the high-quality cream cheese, and he's like, I prefer Philadelphia brand cream cheese. And then so he makes me buy the most expensive salmons like in the world, fundamentally, at Russ and Daughters. And and and wants the the you know, the uh the mass market cream cheese. That's a nice way of saying it, right?
+
+[20:08] Mass market. Hey, look, I eat Philly, anyways. Um isn't it easier to add powdered milk to the base? Do you have any thoughts on the science behind what's going on here? Well, I mean, you know, what I typically do is add just add more cream to the milk to get the butterfather up, and then yes, I add powdered milk to the base.
+
+[20:29] A lot of powdered milk doesn't taste very good, so I can see boiling down your milk to remove some of the water, but and then but you're still adding less cream. Look, I would spend more time worrying about the quality of the cream that you use. Nine tenths of the cream that you buy in the supermarket is um uh you know ultra-pasteurized because that it's sitting around for a long time and they want it to last forever. So, like if you're sourcing like a super nice cream that hasn't been completely whacked out of whack by the uh, you know, by the by the homogenation by boiling it. I mean, I think it's a little interesting that she's into the raw thing and the other thing and a low temperature pasteurizing, but then you're boiling out your your your milk to get, well, at least the skin portion of it to get I mean, in other words, I don't I don't know about this.
+
+[21:11] I don't I mean, uh but the thing is, I'm sure they tested it, it's sure it's delicious. And the cream cheese is gonna add some acidity to which I don't know that you necessarily want. Like when I'm doing it, I uh I would add uh I mean remember also she's doing Philly style, so she's not adding any eggs to it. I almost always make egg style. When I make Philly style, I add stabilizers to it.
+
+[21:29] Uh like I used to use flavor-free guar. Uh you could also use locust bean gum. Uh gel-an makes a super duper awesome stabilizer because it's like hyper creamy and in small amounts, like a fluid gel. It's ridiculous. Uh and then you can also light it on fire.
+
+[21:46] Um don't add guar and gel and because then it gets stretchy like selept on derma. Um so anyway, I add stabilizers. I just up my cream component, and if I want to bulk out the proteins more, I add powder, but it is true that some powders don't taste good. Right? Hmm.
+
+[22:00] Is that a good answer? I've never had her ice cream, but all of the little doodads in the Yelp for I think she's Ohio or something, all the little doodads are like awesome, best, awesome, best. I don't know. We've got another collar. Color, you're on the air.
+
+[22:14] Hello, Dave. Um, so uh my name's Anthony. I'm from DC. Um I've been working on a fish sausage uh for the fish shop that I work for. Mm-hmm.
+
+[22:25] Uh we're looking to make a basically a sausage with the texture and the snap of a hot dog, but emulsified. Um our first attempt was just a uh you know, traditional moussoline that was too soft. Yeah. Uh so we made a couple batches, um, and we're using the myths of like probably 50, 50% white fish, and then the rest of scallop and uh shrimp. Yep.
+
+[22:51] Um puree and fruit processor. Uh I've tried egg whites, uh gelatin, um, uh milk powder and tapioca starch, so I have different variations of those. Uh tapioca starch, and I'm assuming potato starch, anything else would be it's very pasty and starchy tasting that was almost inedible. Um I wanted to give your thoughts on what you might use to give it a little bit more of that uh firmness, that kind of bite to it. All right, cool.
+
+[23:23] You're packing them into lamb casings? Um right now we've just been packing them. Um that's the plan. It's gonna be lamb casings, but right now we've just been wrapping them in plastic and poaching them off to try it out. You're obviously gonna get more snap in the lamb casing, but you're not getting the texture you want out of it.
+
+[23:40] You want more of the texture of a traditional uh emulsified sausage. And you know, most seafood sausages have that very light kind of almost dumpling like texture to them. Stas, by the way, I don't know if I mentioned this on air, whether this came up on air, did it? She hates seafood sausage. Can you believe it?
+
+[23:56] Can you believe this lady? Anyways, so uh uh very simple thing for you. Now here's the deal. You're gonna be able to get anything in between where you are right now and surimi just by using meat glue. I mean, I wouldn't go all the way to Curimi if I was you, but you know, you're gonna be able to get anything in between.
+
+[24:13] Now, meat glue is gonna bind the proteins together. And I have myself made uh like bound uh sausages. Uh I think I've done them with n with seafood, but I've done definitely done them before where they're like ping pong balls. So you can definitely go over. So you're never ever gonna want to go over one percent of meat glue.
+
+[24:34] Don't but don't even start near that high. And also, uh the how much the meat glue is going to make it into a ping pong ball is gonna be dependent on how much salt is present and then how much uh you know how much food processing or grinding you get after you put the meat glue in. And remember, you have to pump the uh sausages out within after you add the meat glue within about five to ten minutes because it's going to start setting up. So I would start with somewhere like a quarter percent, and I would wait, I would take it to taste to get it just where you want, and then I would at the last minute blitz in a one quarter of one percent of uh Activa RM, and then which you can get at modernistpantry.com, and then uh I would you know blend that in and then pipe it right away or just roll it in plastic for your tests, and then uh, you know, if you want to do it, you can you can poach them off at 55 uh Celsius to do a quick set on them so that you don't have to wait forever in a day, and then you can do your regular cook off wherever you were, you know, at whatever you want, or you can let it sit in the fridge for four hours to overnight to set up, and then you should be able to get a judge. It will remember though, if you're gonna hold these things overnight, 70 to 80 percent of the texture will develop over that four hour period, but then it's gonna get a little springier overnight as it continues to bond if it's sitting in your fridge without getting touched.
+
+[26:02] So our our game plan is to pre-poach them. So we're using um we only sell, you know, fish that's been fileted for a couple of days, maybe. So we're using the sweats and the fillets that we haven't sold. Um, and they're still perfectly edible, but they don't look you know the fresh that's possible. So we're pre-poaching them uh so we can sell without um you know without worrying about the customer taking them out the next day and you know those turns after a day or two rather than sure you know four days.
+
+[26:35] Um once you poet once you poach it, the the enzyme's gonna get deactivated, it's not gonna get any stiffer. So if you're gonna if you know you're gonna poach them off, then I recommend uh I recommend like like doing a uh uh an initial poach off, like if you're gonna do lamb casing size, an initial poach off at like fifty-five Celsius for like for like ten minutes and uh you know, ten, fifteen minutes, that should set it, and then you can put them in whatever temperature you want to cook them to. Cook them, you know, whatever you're gonna do to you know do the bacteria kill step and then uh take them out and you're ready to rock and roll. And then the good thing about that is you can run through a couple of cycles with the meat glue to figure out how much you want to add. Gotcha.
+
+[27:20] And I could probably also time it so that I get just the right amount of set on the meat glue to texture that we want, correct? To wait, I say that last part of that sentence again. The right amount of set to do what we have to time just time out when we poach them or when we do the 55 Celsius uh water bath to the tester that we want. So where it's like two hours or three or four hours, we can almost fine-tune it to test it, correct? Yeah, you yes, but the f the 55 sets it.
+
+[27:49] Like the like the enzyme is still working, so you don't have to wait even like you can wait like 15 minutes or 10 and set it at a 55 degree bath. That's how Wiley used to make his shrimp noodles. Or I guess still does make his shrimp noodles. Uh I mean you could go a little lower, like fifty, fifty-two, fifty-three. If you're gonna cook it right away, you know, you could even do fifty, and that'll set it right away.
+
+[28:12] But I usually do fifty-five because it's a nice safe number um you know and you're not growing any bacteria in the bath itself so uh I usually do 55. But then you don't you don't have to wait at all. So what you then is you you make them you you stuff them you poach them off and then you know you're you're good. And then I would just base the amount of meat glue based on that. Gotcha and um I was one other thought I had on it was that the protein you know the protein uh percentage in fish is a lot lower than meat wood um adding uh a protein powder like uh soy protein uh isolate would that help maybe give a firmer texture as well or and is that just gonna be a waste of time.
+
+[28:52] Uh with the meat glue I wouldn't it already has casein in it which is helper and if you if you have customers that don't want the casein you can get one without casein. And it but rem fish remember how soluble like fish uh think of how sticky fish gets yeah because like a lot of the proteins are actually soluble so once you add meat glue to it sucker like that's what the like the the fact that the protein comes out is why we do uh a brine step before you're gonna do low temp otherwise you get that white albumin bloom on the outside which looks nasty. So I don't think you're gonna have a problem with uh I don't think you're gonna have a problem with the um with the meat glue on its own rather than having to add like a separate thing because that's just another thing and then you know the meat glue is in such small percentage and that you I don't even know me technically I don't know what you're labeling but I don't know it's I think it's better than having to add like a another another thing, you know. Exactly. And I should add the uh meat glue and powder, or should I make the paste with it and then add it to a mix.
+
+[29:54] I would add it to the mix in powder form unless you're having trouble, like unless it's such a big batch that you're worried it's not going to get in, in which case, but remember when you're doing that, you're adding water. So as long as you're okay with that, you could do it that way. But also every just the key thing, everything quick. Yes. Okay.
+
+[30:10] Alrighty? All right, thank you. Let us know how it works. Good luck with it. No problem.
+
+[30:15] Super quick break. Alright. Come right back. The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons.
+
+[30:29] Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham.com.
+
+[31:03] Nice. We back. Sam wrote in about uh I wonder whether it's the same Sam. Interesting. Uh I have another quick question for Dave.
+
+[31:10] The old school poly science blue and white circulator has two pump speeds, slow and fast. Uh, does heating the water up uh in the fast pump speed help the circulator heat up faster, Sam? Uh no, here's the deal. The old circulators had a low and a high pump speed for this reason and this reason only. Uh a lot of laboratory approcesses uh take place very close to ambient temperature.
+
+[31:39] And on the high pump speed, you add a lot of friction to the system, and so you can heat the water just because the pump speed is higher. This is according to Philip Preston. This is not, I don't want to someone calling me back and saying there's not enough friction. Listen, I don't want to hear about it. I'm like, this is like from the mouth of the designer of the piece of equipment.
+
+[31:58] And so the low pump speed is there just so that you're not dumping a lot of extra energy in in case you're doing ambient or subambient cooling, like with an ice bath or something like this, right? Uh so uh in a cooking uh in a cooking scenario, you should always use high. Always. Unless you have something that's extremely fragile that's getting knocked around, like for instance, let's say you put eggs in the circulator and you didn't take the care to make sure that they're not rattling around like I'm not gonna name names, but I saw a four, like a three Michelin star chef have uh in a demo. I think I told us before, but the eggs is rattling around the freaking circulator bin.
+
+[32:31] I was like, oh my god, why do you hate eggs so much? Why are you doing a demo if you hate eggs? Uh so in that case, maybe you can put it on low, but always keep it on high, always keep it on high. Um, and I don't know because I don't know which Sam you are, but there another Sam that wrote in saying on food storage. Can you ask Dave this question on the radio show?
+
+[32:49] Do you know any book or resource dedicated to optimal food storage? For example, how best to store celery. Thanks, Sam. Uh, I don't, uh, except for Harold. I didn't have a chance to go peruse my copy, but Harold McGee's uh third, well, fourth, if you count the uh if you count the second edition of On Food and Cooking as a different book, which I think you should.
+
+[33:08] Like so many chapters are rewritten. So we'll call it his fourth book, uh, The Keys to Good Cooking. In that he has a lot of tips for uh optimum storage of things. So uh and that's like one of the because that book, see, like a what a lot of people don't get about that book is meant to be like go-to kitchen reference on stuff like storage. So I need to go reread it, but I think that's got a lot of stuff like that, and I would welcome anyone tweeting on in books they have on that on that subject.
+
+[33:34] Uh, you know, because mostly I read kind of technical crap on this on this sort of thing. Uh and Eric Michael Morris from Little Rock wrote in uh this question on sugar-free gelato. Uh, and uh and I'm what I'm gonna have to do is punt this to next week because I need some more information from you, uh Eric. Sorry uh if this has been addressed before. I love the show, but haven't listened to them all.
+
+[33:55] Like if you have the problems. Uh uh I uh I'm the GM of a wood oven southern Italian style pizza and salad place in Little Rock, Arkansas. We make our own gelato fresh daily. I was curious about making a sugar-free uh gelato slash sorbetto. What do you think of that word says?
+
+[34:11] Fine. You like that word? Because you like anything Italian or Swiss. How it like except for the people. You don't like I thought you love the people.
+
+[34:18] No, I don't like the people. Where in Switzerland or Italy? Both. You don't like Northern Italians or Southern Italians? I hate all Italians.
+
+[34:25] You heard it here first. What the hell? She likes the language, likes the culture, food, food, landscape. Landscape. But the people, eh.
+
+[34:36] Ah, wipe them off. Uh she's just like people. I just want you to like I work with a ball of hate. Just a straight up ball of hate. I I want to do um Jack, can you do like a ball of confusion cover, like somehow referencing like ball of ball of hatred for a stars or something?
+
+[34:55] Yeah. Uh I was curious about making a sugar-free gelato slash sorbetto. The owner was trying to explain inverted sugars and crap to me that is over my head. Any advice on uh making outstander sugar-free gelato? Thanks, Eric Michael Morris.
+
+[35:09] Okay, here's here's the questions that I have for you, Eric. So the question straight up off the bat is why do you want it to be sugar free? In other words, are you trying to make it savory or is it for uh diabetic application, or is it just that you want to have no added sugar, but you're okay with the sugar in fruits, right? Because sugar is a, you know, the sugar is there as a uh as a texture agent, right? So you can, and you know, invert sugar, so sugar, sucrose is a disaccharide, it's like joined together and it tends to crystallize and have other things.
+
+[35:46] And invert sugar tends to make things uh the it has a certain amount of freezing point depression to it, right? And if you were to break that same molecule, sucrose into its two constituent parts, which are glucose and fructose, all of a sudden it depresses the freezing point even more. So adding a certain amount like uh decreases the freezing point uh more, etc. etc. But that's not the that's not the the the point here.
+
+[36:08] The point is is that why do you want to do what you're doing? Um if you want it to taste the same as an ice cream or uh gelato, unless you're gonna add artificial sweeteners to it, don't add stevia. I hate stevia stash. Come on with me. You hate stevia?
+
+[36:20] Jack, you hate stevia? Yeah, obviously. Yeah, I hate stevia. I have no I have no problem with people who like it, except for what that means is that you like something that tastes bad. I mean, it's possible that some people can't taste that awful poisonous metallic bitter taste at the end of stevia.
+
+[36:36] It's possible. But it's just wretched. Anyways, so the question is do you want to add an artificial sweetener? In which case you need to bulk it up with a sweetener uh that is uh if if you're looking for calories, it's non-caloric and uh has the same sort of uh freezing point depression uh and texturizing properties. Uh in which case I'd have to look up what I think the best kind of uh, you know, but that the other thing is when you move to a high bulk uh uh sugars like that like isomalt then you increase the poop pensity of the ice cream because you're not digesting the stuff anything you don't digest increases the poop potential of what you're working on which is why everyone worries about isomalt even though you really don't eat that much of isomalt you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[37:15] Yep yeah anywho uh if you're just looking to use like natural fruit juice then get yourself a refractometer and boil your you know boil your fruit juice down until it's basically sugar and then uh add it back to it and measure the measure you know measure with the fractometer what your sugar level is um have I hit any other ones anyway write me back and tell me like exactly what you want this sucker to taste like versus what you're tasting like now and I can uh get you a better answer as to as to what you're doing. But the sugar is doing three things. It's providing a taste which you may or may not want it's uh depressing the freezing point which you definitely want otherwise it's hard like a rock and even aside from that it adds uh texturizing properties to it. So three things. Uh and I'm sure many many others.
+
+[38:01] Four minute warning. Okay. Um okay so is there anyone I promised I'd get to let me get back to the to the top of this. I'm gonna get the bone marrow next week because I'm gonna ask Nils about that uh because he's Chris May writes in I think you've touched on this topic before but I'm interested in using my soon to arrive Kickstarter Anova water circulator to temper a ginger decoctions. What do you think about decoction as it would fine yeah uh in a pot.
+
+[38:25] I make ginger beer often and typically make my primary decoction by boiling blended ginger for the last eight minutes of a 15 minute boil. Recently I've started supplementing cold pressed ginger juice and water in my batches after the initial boil. However, raw cold pressed ginger juice is way too astringent and aggressive. In my initial experiments, I found that even microwaving the ginger juice to as low as 120 uh Fahrenheit softens the jagged edges of the raw ginger and makes it pop. Uh but I would like uh precision control of the ginger decoction temperature for future recipes, keeping it as raw or strong as possible.
+
+[38:53] My question is this is a water circulator uh like the Nova an acceptable precision tool to heat the two to four cups of my ginger decoction. My primary concerns are cleaning the circulator adequately and harming the circulator somehow. Here's what you do put it in a Ziploc bag and then put the Ziploc bag in the water. Bang, done, right? Boom, ch boom.
+
+[39:09] Or yeah, just do that. And then if you want it to flash off, you can leave the Ziploc bag open and clip it to the sides of your circulator. I've done that a million times. Boom, done. Hooked you up on that.
+
+[39:18] Second question Can you describe the effects of heat on an aromatic such as ginger? I assume it's not denaturing the ginger since there's no protein. There are proteins, but uh there are no proteins that are on or retangling, but I'd love to get some kind of theoretical insight into the transformation from raw ginger to the warm transcendent melange that's uh just a bit of heat provides. Many thanks and keep it up, Chris May. Okay.
+
+[39:36] So um ginger has uh a bunch of stuff going on. They're uh volatile aromatics. These things uh dissipate on heating, even low heating, such that dried ginger, which is rarely heated above 40 degrees Celsius, often loses a huge percentage of its volatiles over time. So what you're doing when you do that is you're losing your citrus notes and things like this. Uh then the non volatile side, which we'll call the pungent side, uh, primarily in the raw ginger, you have these things called gingerols.
+
+[40:01] And the gingerols are changed even with mild heat over prolonged times or with higher heats for longer times into these things called shogels and uh zingerones. And those are less pungent. So like as you change, you change the flavor and the pungency. And there are some kinetics. You can look online.
+
+[40:20] Um I I've just downloaded a book called Spice Chemistry, and I'm gonna read it a little bit more. But even low temperatures like you're describing will one, drive off the volatiles and radically change what's going on. And B, will uh we'll denature if you hold not denature, but we'll will uh hydrolyze uh ginger all to its other components. Now, if you're at like ADC, like you know, by the time you've gone for like five hours at ADC, you've you've already you know hydrolyzed like half of the ginger all that's present. So and also a lot depends on what varietal you're starting with.
+
+[40:51] You're starting with the Jamaican ginger, African ginger, an Asian ginger, how old was it when it was picked, etc. etc. Because the longer it grows underground, the more fibrous it gets and kind of uh the harsher it gets. Anyway, uh so that was uh that that was that. I'm about to get kicked off, so I'll just say that the other questions uh I will answer next week.
+
+[41:08] I had some uh questions on the Twitter about putting oysters. Remember the old oyster trick I used to do? Uh remind me to talk about that next week. Uh and we'll come back next week with the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org.
+
+[41:25] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[41:49] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort.
+
+[0:24] The biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble response. Muckle Shoot. Today's program has been brought to you by S.
+
+[0:32] Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. This is Mitchell Davis, host of Taste Matters. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you'd like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live, actually at 12 this time. 12 o'clock. I was here at 12. Whoa!
+
+[1:10] On Heritage Radio Network in Bashwick, Brooklyn. Call your questions live to 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you?
+
+[1:24] Good. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack?
+
+[1:26] I'm doing great. Yeah? Yeah. Uh, we're gonna uh well to plan, we're gonna have a special guest caller after the break, Nils Norin, formerly of the French Culinary Institute, now heading up uh Marcus Samuelson's restaurant group, and we'll ask him how many restaurants he's opened this week because like whenever you're like Oh I'm you know, I actually well we used to just do fake Austrians, so I can't really imitate the actual Nils accent, so I won't even try. But anywho, he's like every time you call him, he's like, Yeah, I'm headed off to somewhere crazy to open like 13 restaurants.
+
+[1:58] I'll be back in like a month, right? That's true. Yeah. I think that he he and you were guests together the first time you came on Heritage on Patrick Show, like years and years ago. That is entirely possible.
+
+[2:10] Yeah. That is that is. I mean, I'm not gonna say uh plus or minus whether that's the case, but he he's gonna come on actually to talk to us about bone marrow to answer Justin's pressing questions on bone marrow. Because you know what? I've uh I I used to like yeah, I'll talk about a little bit now.
+
+[2:25] I you know I've cooked plenty of bone marrow in my life, but it's always just been kind of home style in Asibuco. You know, you like usbuco right, stuff? Finally, something we like together. Jeez. You know, Asabuko when I was a kid was cheap.
+
+[2:38] It wasn't expensive back in the day. So, anyways, uh I used to cook it anyway, and then I'd take out the bone marrow and put it on my risotto. But you know, that's about the extent. I've never I've never cooked at restaurant Estelle. So uh, you know, for service.
+
+[2:52] So anyway, so Nils are gonna come on because the man is uh cooked more bone marrow than uh I care to eat. Okay, so uh let's answer some other questions. By the way, Dave uh Kleiman had a question a long time ago. He is at I am fractal on the uh on the Twitter, and he says, uh dear at cooking issues, reminding uh reminding you to talk about infusing clams slash oysters. And then he says sous V tricks, but I don't really know any sous vide well flavor tricks I know.
+
+[3:19] Sous V tricks I don't know for for oysters. You know any C V tricks for Oysters? No. I mean, I'm sure that like uh I believe the Rokas have like a razor clam recipe. I think I'm sure but although you know what?
+
+[3:29] Like you know who's got a really good low temperature recipe is the modernist cuisine recipe for gooey duck. For those of you that have never had the gooey duck before, I mean, for those of you that don't know what gooey duck looks like. Yeah, I feel like Stas will hate this. I mean, do you like gooey duck sauce? I don't think I've ever I've had it at Mirabold thing.
+
+[3:44] It's sp it's spelled geoduck for those of you that don't. So who the hell knows why it's pronounced gooey duck? And um uh what's his name? Yule Gibbons in stalking the blue-eyed scallop, which is a classic of foraging, by the way. Uh he you know, he does stalk in the wild asparagus, stalking the blue-eyed scallop, a couple other books.
+
+[4:04] Anywho, like he talks about going to get it like at the super low, low tide, like running out on the on the Pacific coast and getting I don't I don't know whether it's true or false, but he you know he has a uh an article on it. Anywho. It is um let's just say it's suggestive as a as an animal. Am I right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:23] Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's uh imagine you took uh like uh like a a steamer's shells, inflated them huge, then spread them open, and then and then went on the set of a porn movie with it and used it used it as a some sort of anyway, uh it's it it's horrific sight and even more so when you prepare it because you have to peel the outer skin off, which is possibly the most suggestive thing I've ever done in a kitchen. Like, hands down, you know, taking the skin off of uh off of a gooey duck outside is like banana rams. But uh so then it's it's very tough.
+
+[5:01] That you know, that siphon we'll call it, is very tough. And so, you know, one of the things you can do is just slice it really, really thin on a bias and and sauce it and then eat it like that. It's got kind of a nice crunch to it. Uh or or but Nathan and uh Chris and uh you know uh Maxime, these guys in the modernist cuisine, I don't really know whose recipe it was. They put it in a in a in a CVAP and cooked it very quickly, very low.
+
+[5:26] And it was the most tender gooey duck I've ever had in my life. It's delicious. You had it. You liked it, right? That's good.
+
+[5:30] I've only had it like crude, I think. Yeah, crude, where it's kind of crunchy. It's nice. But anyways, so on to flavor infusion. So here's uh Wait, really quick.
+
+[5:38] I just have to add this. The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. Yeah. Their school mascots, the gooey duck. You're lying to me.
+
+[5:45] I'm not lying to you. I'll show you uh I'll show you over the break. Who the hell would do that? They call it Speedy the J the Gooey Duck. Well, I'm sorry that he's so speedy.
+
+[5:54] Goodye the gooey duck. Yeah, so you yeah, speedy. That's what she said. Anyway, what college? Uh it's it's uh Evergreen State College.
+
+[6:03] And they couldn't have chosen like something out of their like amazing temperate rainforest up there. They had to choose the gooey duck? There's a gooey duck fight song. Uh-huh. I'm not kidding.
+
+[6:12] There's a whole yeah, how does the mascot look? Like like a gooey duck. Well, what direction is the siphon point in? Uh oh Jesus. God.
+
+[6:23] Like, what what kind of asexual dean and or president of the university allowed this to happen? Either that or what kind of just nut job would be like, if that's what the kids want, if that's what the kids want, gooey duck it is. You'll have to live with it, kids. I don't. I don't go to the football games.
+
+[6:40] You know what I mean? Is that gotta be how it happened? Oh man, this can't be real. The fight song lyrics. I don't even know if I can.
+
+[6:47] Alright, Jack, yeah, you give me some of your musician skills. Give me the fight song lying. I'm not gonna sing it, but I'll say goo. I can't even do that. Do it!
+
+[6:53] It it's gotta be family-oriented, it's a college fight song. Go gooey ducks go through the mud and the sand. Let's go. Siphon high, squirt it out, swivel all about, let it all hang out. Oh.
+
+[7:04] This is real. Oh my Washington State. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god.
+
+[7:11] I'm sorry. That is horrific. It's bad. It's terrible. Oh my God.
+
+[7:17] You you have defiled Washington. What is it? Washington, what is it? Washington State. Washington State.
+
+[7:22] Evergreen State College. Evergreen State College. You have defiled a delicious animal with your innuendo. Anyways, so on to flavoring oysters. Actually, the by the way, I'm just gonna say this up front.
+
+[7:35] Uh this is news to Nastasha as well as myself, because I just thought of it just now. Uh flavoring oysters using uh flavored uh seawater analogs was the very, very first post on cookingissues.com. Uh it was uh in fact I came up with that trick, and then I'm like, we should have a blog to write this stuff down. So it's the very, very first post on the cooking issues. And you know what I realized, Stas just now?
+
+[8:02] And I'll talk about a second thing, but it's like um I'm never going to have the time again in my life to write cooking issue style posts. It's just not gonna happen. How many times have I said I want to try and do it? And I can't, because all those posts are like two and three thousand words, right? And more sometimes, four or five thousand.
+
+[8:23] And they're all like I you know, we had to do extent extensive research, and really I was only capable of doing that when my job was to come up with that kind of stuff at the French Culinary Institute. So, you know, nowadays I don't really have the time to um to devote to just writing that length of even if I were to come up with the idea, writing that length of dialogue on stuff. So I shouldn't pretend that I am. We should just close cooking issues, like archive it, never pretend that it's gonna go live again. It was what it was, and you know, we have the content, it's there, the content will stay up.
+
+[8:56] And then if ever, you know, I decide to have some sort of online presence other than the radio show and uh and Twitter, then we'll do some some new concept, some new new format, because we won't be able to do the cooking issues, and rather than change what that was, just kind of leave it as uh a document. What do you think? Sounds good. So all right, R.I.P. Cooking Issues blog.
+
+[9:21] Well, Paul can Paul can continue it, but I think like if Paul Paul Adams, by the way, who's uh uh the our good friend who is the uh I guess he's the head like like chief online editor, I don't know what his title is. I don't know, popular science. He runs he runs their web presence fundamentally. And uh he's a really good guy. You know, maybe we'll do something someday, me, you know, with with uh with Paul, because he he's a good guy.
+
+[9:42] But I think we should change the format. You know? Something less, something more spontaneous, less less. We tried that. It didn't work.
+
+[9:50] No, I mean, not as cooking issues. Just like, you know, just like a random thoughts thing that anyone that's working with us can put stuff up or something like this. Something I don't need to devote. I mean, I it's whatever. Anyway, I think we should just have it be what it was, and that's it.
+
+[10:03] Yeah. You know what I mean? Cooking issues lives on in the radio show, Jack. Did you know that? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[10:09] Okay, so back to oysters. It was the very first post uh on uh Oh, that used to be my iPad. It was the very first post on uh cooking issues. And the concept was this. I read uh somewhere that oysters don't I I was reading about the physiology of oysters, because that's the kind of crap I do, and uh, you know, it it came to my attention that oysters won't feed in a refrigerator, it's just too cold.
+
+[10:30] That you need to be in a uh kind of a mid-range uh temperature for it to feed, but you also don't want it to feed over, I forget what the number is, I'm gonna make it up. Let's somewhere in the fifth sixties, 50s or 60s, because then you start having uh problems of growing Vibrio toxin it, right? So it's this middle line thing. And then I realized, well, look, look, if I can get oysters to feed at a temperature that's just above refrigeration temperature, I can maintain that temperature with a with with uh either a circulate or just a standing bath. And it turns out you don't need the circulator, but you can maintain it, right?
+
+[11:00] And I was like, well, what do they feed on? They feed on seawater, so I can get aquarium salt, because at the time I had a uh a saltwater aquarium and I had a bunch of aquarium salt, and you could just mix up, you could take whatever you want, and the the thing we settled on was carrots and cardamom, like carrot juice and cardamom. Uh and I you have to put it through a very fine filter because if you clog, if you clog an oyster's uh gills with particles, and it's a small particle size, it's some some I forget exactly what it is, but it's somewhere in the range of 10 microns, 10, 15 microns, something like this. And a vitapre's not going to get anything below about 20 microns in that range. I don't know what a champion sieves juicer plate is at, but anyway, we I have a rotor stator homogenizer, so I use that to get the particle size down really low.
+
+[11:43] You could probably just do a decent filter on it and get it through, then added uh aquarium salt to get it up to the base salinity that I wanted, and then you place the oysters in it and you let them feed for a couple of hours, and then uh you ice them down again. You don't want to uh keep them in the bath for too long because even it's possible, and I spoke to an oyster physiologist about this, it's possible for the oyster to grow bacteria that are not harmful to it, so the oyster will still appear healthy, but could be harmful to you. For instance, you know, vibrio, but that's not gonna grow in the conditions that that we that we we have here. Anyways, so uh so we chose that and we did it also with clams. Uh we did what do we do, size?
+
+[12:23] Bacon, onion or something like that. We did like a bacon, onion and clams. And uh once you practice, you practice a bunch, you can get to the point where like 75% of your oysters are eating the stuff. And you want to spread them out in a layer and you don't want to disturb them because if you disturb them they shut up like like a clam or an oyster does. Yeah.
+
+[12:39] That's what they're that's what they do. And then what you do is you wash them off, right? And then you pack them on ice and then when you shuck them they're bright orange on the inside which is awesome. And a couple other people have tried this. I don't know if anyone's ever done it for service in a restaurant but it was like kind of my first uh trick not my first trick cooking trick obviously but the first one we wrote up on the blog.
+
+[12:57] So you can go look at it on the cooking issues which is now uh archived yeah so anything good happening this week Stas um are we doing anything huge no I feel like we did a bunch of stuff last week was I away last week did I go somewhere last week no we were here we did some event I know we did some event I can't remember though we uh we got some I I don't want to say this but I feel like I have to or people are going to start getting pretzels I think it was all about that all Sears all the time oh no because last week this is the week I got back from uh Tails right I got back on the Sunday or the Saturday and then last week I feel I feel like we had a big event we always have like it's not like whatever we can't have a week without having a big event we came back from Tales. Yeah anyway my point is is that uh we got word from our factory that they will complete the production now I'm not guaranteeing this this is what they say complete production on the 15th of August of August and we're shipping by air, so it's gonna get here super fast. Well you had your book party last week. Oh yes. Oh, that's true.
+
+[14:05] My book, uh by the way, uh I've seen the the color stuff. They're pre-printed in China, and I should have advanced color copies in uh in like a month. It arrives in October and then sells in November. Should be fun, right? Well, not really.
+
+[14:19] It's never nothing's fun. That's exciting. It's exciting. I'll give you exciting. I hear croissant being eaten.
+
+[14:25] Jack is a croissant. Now you know what it's like, Stas to have you sitting there and do stuff guilty as croissanted. Like uh so Stas, what are your thoughts on Cuisson? I like chocolate-filled croissants. That's it.
+
+[14:36] You don't like a regular croissant? What? I don't know. What we what do you have against flakers? And all that is just uh plain.
+
+[14:45] Plain. You might actually be the first person I've ever met that doesn't like a regular croissant. Chocolate filled and PS. P.S. nothing like a biscuit.
+
+[14:55] If you if your croissant, if your croissant is like a biscuit. No, just like the white flaky thing. You know. So how do you work with me if you don't like white flaky things? Boom!
+
+[15:09] Burn. Burn. Uh okay. So we got some questions in uh from Sam, whose questions we ask uh answered some of last week. Uh can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed uh vegetables?
+
+[15:25] What kind of sauteed vegetables do you like? Most. Most? I was about to say, first tip: don't try to saute zucchini. Boom!
+
+[15:33] Because that stuff sucks. If you want the like the the best way to cook zucchini is to not cook it at all. Throw it out. Yeah, the uh yeah, that's that's my favorite cooking technique for the zucchini. I think if you hollow it out, keep it whole, hollow it out, and stuff it with meat ground beef, yeah.
+
+[15:49] Oh, that's good. That's good. And then you roast it. Yeah. You don't saute that sucker.
+
+[15:52] You roast it. That sounds good. Alright. Another way you can do it is if you uh like like dehydrate that thing so that the water's out of it, like cut it thin, par dehydrate that sucker. Uh, but then if you soak, if you saute it in too much oil, suck it's gonna absorb oil like a spiz nunge, and then it's gonna suck.
+
+[16:11] You know what I mean? So you have to like uh yeah, cr crush it. You know what? I'll talk saute because I know Nils is gonna go crazy on sauteed vegetables. I'll save saute vegetables when we're talking to Nils about the uh about the bone marrow, because that'll be fun to engage him on some sauteed vegetable stuff.
+
+[16:26] Also, people have different things, like uh another one of the cooking issues posts, like sauteing mushrooms, right? Everyone, like the old sort of, you know, uh I forget who it was, whether it was Robouchon or one of those guys, uh Gagnier, one of those dudes, one of those fancy famous French dudes, was like, the ultimate would be to saute a single mushroom at the time, right? Because everyone's like, everyone's like, you know, look, if you saute the the mushrooms, they're gonna sweat and they're not gonna get uh a nice uh crust. Bull crap. That's crap.
+
+[16:53] What you want to do is you want to swamp those mushrooms when you're cooking them so that they get rid of their water and they're boiling the water out, getting rid of the water and not absorbing oil. If you saute mushrooms wide open in a pan, they get rid of uh uh the water, sure, but then they're still relatively porous from the water expelling when they start drying out and they soak up a lot more oil. Not that soaking up oil is bad, but most people don't want like a greasy, a greasy mushroom sponge. Do you want a greasy mushroom sponge? No, you don't.
+
+[17:23] So uh what you do that you know, there is you saute them in a huge in a huge amount, they boil off all the water, and then after they start getting down to the bottom, then they can really color up without getting rid of any water at all, and without absorbing that much oil because they've already densified, which is another trick. Vegetables that are porous that you don't want to absorb too much oil, right? You want to get them fairly pre-densified before you do your saute on them because otherwise they're going to absorb oil as you as you uh saute them. But we'll talk to we'll talk more with uh with Nils as he comes in. Your second question, though, is uh interesting because it's about uh something that Stas hates and then something that both Stas and I hate, and I hope all of you hate as well.
+
+[18:03] Uh are beets not the tilapia of the vegetable world. Uh how uh what am I doing wrong, or what's a good cooking method for for beets? And uh Stas, what are your thoughts on the beets? I don't like them, you know that. I I do.
+
+[18:19] That's the only time I haven't seen you finish an entire I'm not gonna call out whose beets they were. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because that's not what's important here. I did have a I did have a say the way that they were served, though. It was like pull it out of the ground, right?
+
+[18:34] Yeah, wash it off, yeah. And oven for like 15 minutes. You know what I mean? And then like and then like quarters. Yeah.
+
+[18:45] Not a small beat. Big Stas. Were they beefs the size of like a uh like a supermarket radish? No, no. No.
+
+[18:52] No. It was like uh like a a large one of those large plastic baseballs. Like a wiffle ball. Like a whip, yeah. It was like and quarter wiffle balls, quarter wiffle balls, no salt, no salt, no salt.
+
+[19:04] Oh my god. And uh let me just say that it was not good. I've never seen you not finish it. I was like, man, well, here's the weird thing, because beets for me are like beets for me, like I can deal with a crunchy beet and an al dente beet, but like soft on the outside and hard on the inside with that dirt flavor, which is what we're about to talk about, right? So the problem with beets have several problems, but the main problem is that uh dirt, that dirt earth, dirt earth flavor.
+
+[19:35] Actually, I like beets. I like pickled beets. Yeah. Well yeah. And and I like a fully roasted beet.
+
+[19:41] And uh I like uh like apples soaked in beet juice. You know, those red old steakhouse apples. Jack, you know I'm talking about the old yeah, good, right? Anyways, uh I like all that stuff. Um prefer, you know, all the pastry chefs prefer cane sugar.
+
+[19:58] Did you know that? No. They say that the beet sugar, whatever however they produce it, I don't know whether it's true or false, but they say that it's not as good for candy making. Could be uh horse crab. Probably is.
+
+[20:07] Anyway, uh, but that's not what I'm talking about. So uh the thing in beets that is probably off-putting to you, other than the fact that it stains your hands if you're using the red ones. It's a horrible stain your hands, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[20:19] Not as bad as turmeric. Mm-hmm. Which is I'm I could I made that last week at the house and I stained some stuff and my you know, uh Jen was like, my wife was like, uh, you weren't kidding. You stained our you stained the cutting board. I was like, yes, I did.
+
+[20:33] I was like, I d and whatever. And I did it at the I told did I talk about that already? I did the turmeric drink at the Mont Leon at the tails of the cocktail because all that room at the Mont Leon was a rental. Did we talk about me almost getting arrested at the Mont Leon? No.
+
+[20:47] Well, if we have time, we'll talk about me almost getting arrested at the Montaleone. Okay, anyway, the chemical in beets is uh geosmin. It's the same chemical, which is apt why you say it that grows in tilapia or that's present in tilapia that makes it taste muddy and some catfish. However, in uh when it comes in fish, it's the product of uh bacteria that the uh it's a it's a bacterial byproduct that they that they eat produced by uh well by bacteria. Beets.
+
+[21:14] It was not known until very recently whether or not beets produce their own geosmin, or whether or not uh or is it geosmin or geosmin? Who cares? Uh you guys know I can't pronounce anything. It wasn't known until recently whether beets produce it on their own or whether there's bacteria that grow around beets that's causing it to have that flavor. But uh Lou uh et al.
+
+[21:32] in 2003 in the paper, biosynthetic origin of geosmin and red beets, proved that uh it is produced endogenous endogenously, meaning that the beets actually produce their own geosmin. And here is the first clue for you on how to make beets not suck so dang hard. The geosmin concentration is six times higher in the peel than in the pulp. So when you get rid of the skins, whether you well, if you're roasting, you're probably gonna do it afterwards, right? But when you're getting rid of the skins, get rid of the skins.
+
+[22:01] Don't just like take a little bit of layer off the outside. Get rid of enough skin to get rid of most of the geosmin. Here's another thing. Do you think there's a reason why beets are often served in acidic sauces or in acidic uh pickles or in things like that? Do you ever think about that, Stas?
+
+[22:17] The reason is is because geosmin breaks down in the presence of acidity, and which is why you add it to tilapia. Well, it's just to add some flavor to that muddy piece of crap trash. But uh, but anyway, so geosmin if it's heated in acidity will break down. So acidity is gonna help if you want to do like a post-finish with uh like a sucky in a uh in an acid kind of environment, that should help. And also the acidity probably helps cover up the smell of that stanky earth thing.
+
+[22:47] But the best beat I've ever had was made by uh friend of mine, Mike Sheeran, who uh is a chef out in Chicago, and I don't know whether it was originally his idea or an ideas and food idea or whatever, but he par dehydrated the beets, then sauced them, and then uh roasted them. And they had a kind of a chewy, meaty texture, and that was the best damn beat I've ever had in my life. That's the first time in my life. I like beets fine, you know, when they're prepared properly, not like quarter wiffle balls, you know, like flash, flash cooked quarter whiffle balls. But like this was the first time uh where someone served me like a beet salad, and I was like, holy crap, I could eat as much of this beet salad as they have in the house.
+
+[23:28] Still waiting for that moment for me. Yeah, but you know how you like like you know, you have to have eaten with me, but like I get in these modes where like I go ape ape list on things, like you know, I've been known to eat like I don't know, like 20 grapefruit. You know what I mean? It's like if I'm like, man, this grapefruit is delicious, like I can just keep eating it. Uh and I felt that way about this beet salad.
+
+[23:49] Anyway, uh and one more quick question he has, and then we're gonna go to the uh We do have a caller. We have a caller? Yes. All right, caller, you were on the air. Hello, Dave.
+
+[23:57] How are you? Doing well, how you doing? Doing all right. This is Steve from Indiana and Indianapolis. And I had a few quick questions for you about uh technology.
+
+[24:06] Sure. Uh one being the VACMaster VP112. Uh do you think it's worthwhile to purchase out if I'm not gonna be doing retexturizations and things? I just want something that I can vacuum uh liquids with the meat or whatever in and sous vide cook at. How much does it cost?
+
+[24:24] It was five oh nine. I mean, it's just a dry pump. Yeah. It just seems to me to be an in-between cost. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:31] Like, I've never used it. Someday I'll get a hold of one and I'll use it. Hervay, that I, you know, who the who I used to work with at the French Culinary Institute, they sent the FCI one or the ICC, whatever they're called now. And um they sent him one and he seems to like it. I've never used it.
+
+[24:47] I mean, by all accounts, it's better than the food saver, but it's just in that for me in that uncomfortable in-between price zone. You know what I'm saying? Like, isn't the comfortable price zone like 2500 for like a decent uh like something that can actually pull 99% plus vacuum? No, closer to 15, I think if you get the if you get the right deal. I haven't shopped one for in a long time, but you can get one, I think, with a decent pump for closer to 15.
+
+[25:11] So in other words, it's like 99 bucks, 500 bucks, or 1500 bucks. Like those are your choices. Right. And like so for me, but maybe it's closer to two. I don't know.
+
+[25:21] I have to look at uh, you know, like depends on what kind of deal you can get. Uh and you know, Philip Preston has a new one out, uh, new as of last year, but I still haven't tested it yet. Um that is not the mini pack that he also sells. I have a mini pack and I like it, the small mini pack. Um, but you know, Philip Preston uh he released a uh I think a sub $1000 unit or one that's right around a thousand bucks, but I have never used it.
+
+[25:46] I I don't know. The question is, why do you want it? If it's just for cooking, right, most things can be done in zips. If it's for preservation, then sure, fine. They're you know, they're gonna be fine.
+
+[26:00] Like what like why is it you specifically want a vacuum? Well, okay. So um I got uh one of the Santa uh immersion circulators. I used to work at uh at a kitchen shop. Uh and so I got a I I pretty much abused my discount there and got a bunch of kitchen gadgets.
+
+[26:16] Um and now I'm going into medical school. So I really want something that I can have in the fridge, uh just ready to go and drop into a bath. Additionally, um my brother and my dad had some of the food that I had cooked. Like I did 48 hour or 48, 72 hour short ribs, spare ribs that I you know then grilled and things like that, and they were just fascinated by how convenient it was. But when I went over to my dad's house, I got him one, uh a sansare.
+
+[26:43] He was uh cooking uh like each steak in like a cup and a half of oil. Uh and so I really wanna like I want to get him something that I could just give him the meat and have 'em drop it in and and not waste like I think he went through uh a half liter of oil that day. Yeah, yeah yeah. I mean people tend to overestimate how much oil you need in the zippy by like a good amount. Like you need And I told him Yeah.
+
+[27:11] You only need enough to make up the best. What do you say? I told him about the wash well I showed them water submersion technique and he still did the like massive amounts of oil. But go ahead, sorry. Yeah no I'm saying like you know one thing to do is cut it down but in the yeah in those circumstances I've heard that that that that that that VP whatever it is works fine.
+
+[27:29] Um I've never had any personal experience with it. But I you know as a kind of a mid range vacuum I hear it's a lot better than the food saver. Let's put it that way. Okay. Um but I don't I like I can't you know I won't recommend anything I haven't used personally.
+
+[27:43] Do you know what I'm saying? But if I'm gonna eventually upgrade to something that I can actually do retexturizations and and and uh things like that, infusions, whatever, I I might as well just go all the way. Yeah, or you could get this one and then give it to your dad. Yeah that's true. That's true.
+
+[27:57] You know, cut your teeth on this one and then give it to your dad when uh when the you know or I mean I don't know I don't know what your butt your budgets are, but you know um what I find in life is that if I really want a piece of equipment and then I buy the lesser version of that piece of equipment, I'm never happy and I end up always I always always end up getting the good one in the end and then the question is will you be kicking yourself for having also purchased the lesser one? That's what you have to tell yourself. If you're anything like me that that's what will happen to you. That makes sense yeah. Oh okay so uh uh do you have a little bit more time sorry sure what's up okay um I was looking into cryo milling technique because um my girlfriend's gluten free and we were trying to figure out good ways to do super fine flowers without spending an hour you know it's uh like uh tossing an arm or like and so uh I I don't in Indianapolis it's very hard to source liquid nitrogen.
+
+[28:49] Uh I'm a chemist and I have access to doors and things like that so that's fine. But sourcing the actual liquid nitrogen and not stealing it from work is another uh is another uh situation. So um can I do the same thing with dry ice or am I gonna run into a problem with the moisture content actually contained in dry ice. Well I mean the problem with dry ice as opposed to liquid nitrogen is that you know it's not very good at contact uh you know because you can't just submerge something in dry ice. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[29:19] So you can get the stuff cold by putting it in a box but then you have the additional problem of you you tend to get a lot of condensation unless the dry ice is unless unless you storing something in a box with desiccant and then throwing a chunk of dry ice in and then letting it chill all the way down and then and then milling it you tend to get a lot of condensation from the air onto anything that's freezing that hard that's not submerged. Do you know what I'm saying? Right, right. Which is one of the reasons why I don't really like using dry ice even for like distillation runs because I tend to condense a lot of stuff out of the air, whereas liquid nitrogen ends up being pretty clean for me that way. Uh, because you can do total submersion.
+
+[29:57] But the my my real question is is where are you trying to so like why is it hard to source where you are? Because that's something of general interest to me is uh ease or lack of ease of sourcing liquid nitrogen. You tried the welding shops won't won't help you out. I actually uh don't know I guess I don't know where to start. Like I I looked online and I typed in uh liquid nitrogen Indianapolis, whatever.
+
+[30:20] I mean that's probably not a good way to do it. Yeah, no, no. And I was looking for uh for food grade dry ice, because uh actually at work, uh when we when I use dry ice on my cold finger, my rotovap, uh there's just a bunch of stuff left behind. So you definitely need uh I mean I think that that dry ice is kind of an exception. Uh well liquid nitrogen I think is pretty pure uh regardless from a welding shop.
+
+[30:43] But I I just um yeah, I need to I need to go and and and investigate a little further, I think. Yeah, welding shop. Welding shop. And by the way, like so, you know, the classic dry ice, uh dry ice acetone bath for rotovaps, I don't particularly like them because um especially in the kind of work that I'm doing, there's a lot of uh water phase in the in in the stuff that I'm distilling. And um the dry ice is so cold that unless I suck a partial vacuum before I chill down the cold finger, I get massive amounts of condensation in because the way that the Bukey cold finger is designed, the vacuum takeoff line is right next to the uh condenser finger.
+
+[31:29] And so it unless you have a unless if you chill it before you suck a vacuum, I c I get a lot of crystallization in the ta in the takeoff from my vac line, and then I occlude my vacuum, and then once that happens, all hell breaks loose loose with your distillation, and it's very hard to get back on track without losing flavor if you're doing it for food, not for lab work. You know what I mean? Right, right. And so liquid nitrogen, because it is actually somewhat less powerful, even though it's uh a lot colder than dry ice, I find to be uh easier and if I make a mistake I can rectify it quickly and it's just not as messy. I've never I've never liked working with dry ice in my roto vap um very much.
+
+[32:08] Um but yeah so I would go to a welding shop and this the secret is that uh you know at least around here the welding shops also sell to medical places. So they have you know theoretically for instance they have different grades of nitrous. So like m the my local welding shop sells nitrous to doctors. Uh and and a a lot of it isn't really the purity of the supplied gas it's the care with which they purge the tanks and make sure that the lines that they use for transfer aren't contaminated with things like oils or or or other nasty things. Okay.
+
+[32:41] So a lot of these guys will supply hospitals and clinics and things like this and so you know I wouldn't worry I wouldn't worry overly much in every single chef in in New York City gets from one of two welding shops, McKinney or TW Smith, one of those two that I know of. Okay. Excellent. Oh I'll I'll check into it and if I hear anything uh about where you can get good liquid nitrogen in Indianapolis I'll I'll tweet it to you or something so that so that people other people who listen to you in Indianapolis can know. Cool.
+
+[33:10] Um and and the last thing is you said that you were a home brewer at one point. Oh, a long time ago, yeah. Um did you ever do water adjustments? Uh what do you mean? So like you would start with RO water and then you would water adjust based on uh oh no, like Burton salts and stuff like that?
+
+[33:30] No, I mean uh like I like uh most of the stuff, most experiments that I was doing, uh I I was you know, I kind of drew a base level of what I was gonna like deal with. And so like I um my assumption was New York City tap water. And then um I was working mainly on um on uh mash temperatures times and um and like you know the the the grain bill that went into it and you know messing with OG and yeast and things like that like I never I never got to the point where I was messing with the uh with like the salts and the chemistry of the of the water. I was just using uh filtered, you know, de obviously declorinated, filtered New York City tap. But I never I never deionized it or removed our water is very, very soft here.
+
+[34:17] Um so you know, maybe it maybe it wasn't ideal, I don't know. But then, you know, that would have been something I probably would eventually have gotten into, but I I you know, but by the when my second son Dax was born, it was just like you know, it was just too much to obliterate the house because I was doing all grain stuff and it really wipes an apartment out. I was in a very small apartment at the time. Really makes a mess in the apartment. Well, and see, I have I have half a garage that I have for brewing equipment, and it it fills like the entire half a garage.
+
+[34:42] So yeah, I completely understand. So I was just curious if you ever heard of anybody using modernist salts in it, like the calcium lactate and calcium lactate glucanate instead of the calcium chloride that people are using. But someone uh someone uh, you know, call or tweet in and we'll uh we'll talk about it, even though it's a little outside of my depth. Excellent. Sounds great.
+
+[35:03] Thanks, Dave. Alrighty, talk to you soon. Bye-bye. All right, let's go to our first commercial break. Back with Nils Norin.
+
+[36:18] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than four hundred days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire pork.
+
+[36:42] Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham dot com. Jack, that's like the music from like when like the couple in that, like in that like kind of southern country show, like they're just about to get together, they're headed towards the barn, but nothing kind of raunchy's happening yet. That's what that music is. The pre-love music.
+
+[37:08] Yeah, it's it's the it's the country western TV, like movie pre-love music. Well, let me give a shout out. That's a band called the Hollows. They're local. They're uh friends of the network.
+
+[37:18] And all the music we play here is is local and and you know, sourced from friends. So if you're a listener of the show and you have a band or a music project, email us. And submit your music. Especially if you need some pre-love. If you have a barn within about like a uh 200 meter radius of you with like a hay loft, like that's the music to crank.
+
+[37:39] You know what I mean? It's gonna happen. That's the that's the reignition of being near a barn. Isn't it? Doesn't it hurt in hay though?
+
+[37:49] I I don't know. Don't you think? I I didn't want to get that it, you know, I'm gonna guess yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are different qualities of hay.
+
+[37:58] Probably. But it's it's the proverbial role in the hay. That's where you're hiding away from the the farmer. Dad. Definitely dad.
+
+[38:10] Well, presumably, you know, back in the day if we're talking stereotypes. Alright. Uh so do we have uh do we have Nils? Yeah, we do. Alright.
+
+[38:19] Nils! Hey, how are you doing? Going well. So this is uh Nils Norin, uh, you know, who uh did uh some of my best work with Nils Norrin. Now uh running uh the uh Marcus Samuelson restaurant group.
+
+[38:32] Is that your official title? Running the Marcus Samuelson restaurant group? What is it? Like what's your official title over there? Yeah, official title is uh VP of restaurant operations.
+
+[38:41] Yeah. And so how many how many restaurants did you open this week? That was the question we had earlier. But this week, but uh this month, about uh three. For real?
+
+[38:54] Yeah. How many different countries? Uh two. Oh, no, actually, actually three. Uh Muda, Sweden and Norway.
+
+[39:06] So, which one weren't you counting before? Norway. Norway. Uh Norway, yeah. Oh, Norway.
+
+[39:16] Uh, you know, for those of you that I don't know, you know, Nils is a Swede, so they have that Swedish Norwegian stuff. Give me the give me give me the Norwegian pronunciation of Mirvold. Uh Mirvold? Yeah. Oh, man.
+
+[39:31] All right. So Nils, I'm gonna read this question and then we're gonna talk about it. But uh, and then afterwards we'll talk a little bit about sauteed vegetables, because I know you're very opinionated about the saute vegetables as well. Here's the question from Justin. Um I have a question about bone marrow, specifically regarding preparation for service.
+
+[39:46] I've just taken charge of the kitchen following the resignation of our executive chef. Resignation, huh? Yeah. Yeah, whatever. Nils, we know how that goes, right?
+
+[39:55] Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the resignation of our executive chef, and have been tasked with creating a bar menu. I want to include roasted marrow bones, but don't have a ton of experience with them, and neither do I. That's why we're calling Nils.
+
+[40:06] Now, Nils, your big prep, you used to uh you used to serve a lot where you would like uh slow braise them out and then use the fat in things, right? That was your favorite thing to do? Yeah. Yeah. It's delicious.
+
+[40:17] Yeah. Uh well what we I forget what you used to mix it in with when you were done. Oh, tons of things. Uh I mean, bone marrow in pure, it's delicious. Yeah, you used to w what w it was what was it?
+
+[40:29] It wasn't the celery root, was it? What do you used to add as uh sunchoke? Sun choke and bone marrow, yeah. You know, um this is hilarious. Uh Nastasha and Piper back in Piper was working with us.
+
+[40:40] They did a a slow cook on sunchokes and ate all of the sun chokes slow co uh quickly cooked. They only cooked it for like fifteen minutes and they ate like half a pound each. How hilarious is their gastrointestinal distress? Yeah. That's not the great idea.
+
+[40:57] Yeah, so Nils would like render out the marrow. Now I remember, and he would submerge the sun chokes and cook cook them low and slow long time to turn the stuff into inulin so that it's not a huge fart bomb. But you know, Stas never asked me before she cooked the stuff out, whatever. And then Nils, I don't know if I told you this. But she then did the same thing on purpose and served it to a friend and his girlfriend at a picnic, and she and Piper did not eat it and just watched them eat all the sun chokes while they ate around them.
+
+[41:23] They did a beef and sunchoke like cold picnic salad and did it to them and didn't warn them, I think that's kind of not cool. What do you think? So they I guess they're not friends anymore. No, they are. Yeah, I mean, they're also kind of low quality people, so anyway.
+
+[41:39] Okay. So uh uh anyway, uh I've this so we're back to the bone marrow question. I follow the general rule of soaking the bone marrow and uh the bones in cold salt water with multiple water changes, but most recipes I found and do you agree with that? The multiple soak? Yeah, I mean, you definitely get the blood off, right?
+
+[41:57] Because it's gross. That's why. Yeah. Uh but I you know like how long do you have to do it to get 'em like really creamy? To get them to roast them?
+
+[42:07] No, no, no. They to get all the blood out. Like how long do you usually let 'em I mean, I don't know. It's a couple of hours usually is enough. Yeah.
+
+[42:14] That's what I figured. Uh but most recipes I found suggest roasting the bones for around 20 minutes at 450 uh in the Fahrenheit, which is what is that? That's like 220 or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:26] Uh however, I need a much quicker pickup. Uh is this something I can safely par cook with good results? Or do you know any techniques for a faster pickup? I'm planning on using three inch bones split lengthwise, and uh would like to be able to send them out in under 10 minutes. I do have a circulator and I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my cerez all, thanks for all you do.
+
+[42:43] Keep it coming. I mean, I would probably pop them, separate them, use the I mean d are you a believer in like bones for plating versus the bones they come in, or would you leave them in the bones? Or would you p pop them out and then cook them separately and then lay them in the bones for service? No, I would I would keep them in the bones. Why why add an extra set when you don't need to?
+
+[43:01] That's true. That's true. So what would you do for the par cook? I was just thinking because the bones, you can't really vac a that kind of a bone down because they're so porous, you know what I mean? Or would you just cook keep them in like a CVAP?
+
+[43:13] Like what would you what would you do for par cooking on that thing? So th to see scenarios, uh if I would do that rooster, which I have at CVAP, I would keep them next to my fried chicken in the CVAP. And then and they're I think they're gonna be perfect. That's what, 140? And then put them in the salamander or your your your turbo uh torch.
+
+[43:33] Uh or if you do them in a ziploc bag in in the circulator, that probably works well too. And you just use them in some rendered in some rendered keep keep the marrow and rendered marrow and just reuse it a bunch? Yeah. I mean keep the put the whole bone, right? Right.
+
+[43:51] Figure out what the right temperature is, which I'm not sure. But if you're gonna do it next to the chicken, what do you keep your chicken at? Sixty? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[44:00] Uh a little over. Uh like what is keep at. Oh, you you oh you keep it at the cook temperature? Yeah, okay. So you you you hot hold it at the cook temperature.
+
+[44:09] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So um yeah, but that that that's gonna be fine. It's not gonna it's I don't think it's gonna break the structure down at those temperatures.
+
+[44:18] I think you have to get it hotter to break the structure down, don't you? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean I think it's gonna hold. I think it's gonna be fine. And then like a quick flash off on the with the hottest thing that you own, and I think it's gonna be good.
+
+[44:30] It won't have the look of a roasted bone on the outside though. If just on the top where you sear it off. You think that's a problem or no? No, I don't no, I mean you could. But I mean, no, I think it's fine if you do it on the top.
+
+[44:42] What does it matter? What does the other roasting do? Well it's it smells good. Yeah, and it also dep it depends on how clean you've gotten the bone beforehand. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:51] Yeah. Like if i so like you can do a worse job cleaning the bone if you're gonna roast the hell out of it, because no one minds a little piece of like like skin or a silver skin or meat stuck to a bone that's if it's roasted to hell. But nobody wants like a blonde looking piece of junk stuck to the outside of their bone. You know what I mean? No, that's true.
+
+[45:12] So you clean, you gotta clean it. Yeah, but if you clean it, but you pick up it's gonna be fast. Oh, you're a minute. Two minutes and it's out. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[45:20] And like, you know, for something like that, like hopefully you have like a deck broiler or a sally. I think a sally is good because you're not worried about overcooking it so much. And so, like, even better than a sears all or something like that, I think is gonna be I mean, I don't think it's gonna bleed out too much on a sally if you have it it right in the sweet spot. Searz all work, obviously. No.
+
+[45:38] But I don't think it's gonna bleed out too much in a sally. You know what I mean? No, I don't think so. Yeah. I think it'd be fine.
+
+[45:44] And uh all right, so then uh, and it probably a bone, I'm I'm looking at my hands at the bone, what uh I think it'll probably be ready to serve within like four zero minutes. Don't you think? Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you might as well put it in an hour before because nothing's gonna happen once it's time pressure in that. Yeah, but I'm saying like minimum forty minutes, I would say.
+
+[46:10] Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Because remember it's only cooking through the one side because the it's not gonna heat up that fast through the bone. But I think once it's in there, it could stay in there like probably all of service. I mean, I've never done it, but I think it could probably stay in there all of service.
+
+[46:25] I I would bet it can. Yeah. The only thing I'd be worried about is if you cool it and reheat it, it might get like oxidized. I wouldn't necessarily do that unless it's in a bag enclosed. But um Yeah, because but whatever.
+
+[46:38] I think it would work. Um what I like on my bone marrow? I like parsley on my bone marrow. You like chopped up parsley on your bone marrow, Nils? Parsley is delicious.
+
+[46:48] And salt. And yeah, and I I also like a little bit of lemon zest, but that's me. Uh okay. So then we had another question. Uh can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed uh vegetables?
+
+[46:58] And our first tip was don't saute zucchini. Yeah. Because it's horrible. Yeah. I mean, the the only way you're gonna do it is if you gorge them, right?
+
+[47:12] Take some of the uh the uh water out of it. Right. Then then it can be okay. Yeah, yeah. But let me ask you this.
+
+[47:20] If you could have a sauteed carrot or a sauteed uh or a sauteed piece of zucchini, would you ever choose a zucchini? Nope. No, you wouldn't. I mean it's like straight up. You know, I think look, I think by and large, and we already talked about uh you know before you were on, we talked about you know what we used to do with the with the mushrooms.
+
+[47:44] Mushrooms are a special case because they're not uh a veg they're not a vegetable, they're a fungus. They break down differently. So they they maintain their structure even over a long cooking period which is why you can cook them nicely uh in a in a saute without without them losing structure and you can get a nice crust on the outside and you can get the water balance right very difficult to do this with spongy vegetables in general right when you say so Nils like zucchini it is eggplant that's that's why carrot works great. Yeah but the zucchini doesn't no I mean but like also like I'm not a huge fan of like a sauteed eggplant you no the only way I like my eggplant if they're really cooked through if they're not cooked through it tastes like a piece of meat talking about hay before but not in a good way. Tastes like a what your phone fuzz for a second yeah but it it tastes like hay if they're not cooked through.
+
+[48:42] So again if you want to gorge them you know in density and it might work. Yeah or like we used to do in the vacuum or like people who microwave them but the issue is is the water con see zucchini and eggplant both suffer from the problem like a two part problem. They're spongy, like right out of the gate, they're spongy. So they're gonna absorb oil. And then most people when they're sauteing, they're so worried about the temperature dropping too low that they overheat the oil and the oil takes on those fishy burnt aromas, which I hate, right?
+
+[49:14] Like unless you're doing wok cooking and you like really do it right, like the overcooked oil on a saute, I think s smells nasty. What do you think, Nills? Well, yeah, I think you know what I think. Yeah, all right. I couldn't agree more.
+
+[49:25] Yeah. Right, right. So it's spongy to get go and then also anything that's not sponge is water. So it's like it's you can't win. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:39] Like they have very little structure. So, I mean, I think those things are much better. All those things are much better roasted where you can sit there and let the w like vapor, although not zucchini, but eggplant, better, you know, l let let all let all the water get out of it or whatever. But so those are my tips. Choose the right vegetables.
+
+[49:57] Do you have any like big tips for like sauteing? I I think like if you're sauteing a carrot, just don't do don't do a bad job. You know, I think is like the big tip. I always cheat. I always throw uh a little bit of water in uh I always cheat, throw the water in the pan, let it let it flash off, par cook, and then saute after the water evaporates.
+
+[50:16] But is that considered a uh like a a jerks technique? I mean in a restaurant you wouldn't do that, but I mean at home. No, I mean you can, or you just saute them until you have the right color, and then they're finishing up them in the oven. No, yeah, they could do that too. That's probably better because you're not absorbing any water.
+
+[50:33] You probably keep a more dense, uh you know, you probably keep them more you get get a more dense flavor, saute them for color and then finish them in a not too hot oven, like three fifty or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just throw the pan in the oven. Right?
+
+[50:47] Just saute it till you get the color you like, throw the pan in the oven and walk away. Just beware that you might take a while for it to finish off in the oven. Yeah, it might, depending on how big they are. It's gonna be fine on that end. You can't then you can park with them and finishing it off later.
+
+[51:04] Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Um, all right. So uh I think uh Jack's gonna kick us off the off the radio pretty soon.
+
+[51:12] I have a couple of questions. By the way, Eric Michael Morris was wrote in last week about sugar free gelato. Didn't didn't clarify what he wants, so we can't uh answer that. Uh and then the rest of stuff we can get to next time. So anything uh anything good going on, Nils in the cooking world?
+
+[51:25] Come up with any new uh new flavors, new ideas you want to talk about on the radio show. Uh nothing that comes to mind yet. But I'm gonna have some soon, though. I'm actually working on some stuff, but it's too too early. Yeah.
+
+[51:40] Disclose some. All right. Well, well, why why don't you come back in person sometime and hang out on the radio show? You ever you ever uh free on the Tuesdays around 12? Yeah, for sure.
+
+[51:50] Alright, cool. And uh Jack, by the way, tells me that we might be switching our times uh next next season, wherever a season is. I have no idea what a season is. But uh we might be switching our times up a little bit. But Nils, thanks for coming and answering all of our bone marrow questions.
+
+[52:02] We'll see you all next time on Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[52:30] Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 non-profit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, a third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the Food Scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:18] Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on Robertus Pizzeria and Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and Jack Insley in the engineering booth. How you doing, guys?
+
+[0:46] Good. Ooh, how'd you have that much breath in you after riding your bike here? I don't know. You know what? Uh, well, before I get into the bike, uh, calling your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[0:54] That's 718497-2128. And now back to your question, Jack. You know, you know that everyone who bikes in this neighborhood, they know that there is a gi like a block and a half from here is a giant cement factory. You know this, Jack? The giant cement.
+
+[1:08] And something I mean, I hate driving past it because whenever I drive past it, like even although I'm breathing through my nose, like, you know, I'm inhaling concrete dust, and it always like I'm fine all the way here, up and down the bridge. I could get off and do the radio show at Admiral's Noah's. Bike past that concrete factory, and it's like all of a sudden my mouth is totally shafted. They're just spraying Portland cement dust into the atmosphere at a ferocious rate. But I realized something else.
+
+[1:33] You know, uh, you know, for those of you that are fans of Neil Diamond, you know the Brooklyn Roads song. We mentioned on the show before, Brooklyn Roads. Anyway, you know that you know this song, right, Estas? Neil Diamond? I thought it was oh yeah, okay.
+
+[1:44] Jack, you know you're Neil Diamond fan. Not a Neil Diamond. The hell's wrong. It's not Brooklyn Roads. Brooklyn Roads.
+
+[1:50] Brooklyn Roads. You're thinking of uh uh LA's fine some of the time. Yeah, no. This is Brooklyn Roads. It's an entirely different song, not as popular.
+
+[1:59] But uh, so I always thought it was laughable because we would ride but Stas won't ride our bike here anymore because she took a tumble on Bushwick Avenue once. And Bushwick Avenue, and I've mentioned this before, is like kind of like a slalom course. But then like it's like look, seriously, it's like it's the it's totally like moguled out, it potholed out, moguled out, and then there's giant blobs of concrete just on in the middle of the bike lane, right? Yeah. And then uh like a month and a half ago, Jack, I don't know if you were biking around here.
+
+[2:27] You bike, right? I um I have a car. Yeah, so do I, but I bike, whatever, anyway. I'm on the back. And you have to move it every morning for alternate side parking anyway.
+
+[2:36] No, I know. All right. Yeah. So, anyways, very green. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:40] Well, is it a partial zero emissions vehicle here? Not at all. Have you heard of this partial zero emissions vehicle? It's not zero emissions. My I'm my Subaru is it says P I see, partial P Z E V.
+
+[2:53] Partial zero emissions vehicle. Hey, listen, people, every car is zero emissions when you have it turned off. What the hell is a partial zero partial zero? Smart. You know?
+
+[3:01] I'm part, you know, what does it make any sense? Does that make any sense to you at all? No. No. No.
+
+[3:07] Partial, partial, my butt. Anyways, so about a month ago, maybe you did notice this, even though you were on a car, maybe two months ago now, they totally repaved the stretch of uh Bushwick that's near us. It was like totally sweet. New blacktop. No potholes, no life ending potholes, no nothing.
+
+[3:23] And I was like, man, all right, I'm gonna stop making fun of Brooklyn Roads. And then like the next week, the big turds, like like copper light dinosaur turd fossilized chunks of concrete on the thing, and I realized it was those damn cement trucks. Had extra cement in those freaking chutes. The freaking chutes are pointed to the freaking right, right? Uh, you know, so that they're not pointed into the center of traffic.
+
+[3:44] They're on the right, and they're blopping concrete right into the freaking bike lane. And that's why there's always blobs of concrete in the freaking bike lane around here. Someone needs to someone needs to teach those weasels a lesson. You know what I'm saying? Jack doesn't care.
+
+[3:57] He's driving next to it with his car, laughing at the people flying over their handlebars next to him. I didn't even door them, and here they are over their handlebars. I've never doored anybody. It's never too late, Jack. It's never too late to door someone.
+
+[4:11] I've thankfully never. Is that true? No, I did stop I did pull an abrupt UE stopped and the guy hit me. So that's that's adoring. That's I consider that a dooring.
+
+[4:18] I did door this poor son of it. That was a long time ago, though. I was much younger, and I have been doored, so it's like I guess I paid it forward. Uh in a kind of reverse pay forward. Steal forward?
+
+[4:28] What is it? I don't know. Uh good day, Nastasha, Dave, and Jack. Greetings from France. Uh hope you uh me that is enjoyed my stay in Paris a few weeks back and you had the opportunity to visit a few of the places I had recommended in previous email.
+
+[4:39] I didn't get a chance to go to too many food things because I was with uh Dax, who doesn't really care much. Although he's not a crepe fan. Did you know that, Stuzz? No. He loves crepes.
+
+[4:47] You know, I had that crepe maker for years. He never asked for crepes, and now he's like, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, jelly. We couldn't get him interested in crepesle with you know the ham and the cheese in it. You like that crap, right? Especially you're a Griere fan, right?
+
+[5:01] Yeah. Because Nastacha's a fondue fondue fiend. She loves fondue. If if well it's not gonna happen, but like that's like if someone was gonna ask Sastaz out on a date back in the day, and they're like, you know, uh, I know it's cheesy and everything, but you know, you would you want to go to a fondue restaurant? Should be like, finally, somebody's asking me to a fondue joint.
+
+[5:18] There's not many fine fondue places here. There used to be in the 70s when fondue was popular. Back, you know, whatever anyways. So that's another thing that Stas likes. You can put that on the list of four things.
+
+[5:28] Stas likes fondue. Um anyway, I went to Pierre May and uh I think a couple of the cheese joints, but I didn't get a chance to eat out at any fancy restaurants who mainly sat outside so that if there was any screaming and wailing, we could just kind of cut ourselves away. Dax is old, he doesn't scream and wail, but you know, kids like they're not like always restaurant friendly. Although Dax is Dax is very good. Anyway, um back to the question.
+
+[5:51] Uh imagine I want to add caramel flavor into a sweet recipe. I can imagine that. Can you imagine that? Jack, you have have you do you have it imagined? I have it.
+
+[5:59] Okay. Uh could I take the original amount of sugar in the recipe, cook it to a caramel, let it cool, reduce it to a powder, and then follow the recipe instructions. Uh I am particularly interested in the effect on structure. For example, sugar gives cookies a nice uh snap and uh and provides structure to egg white uh egg whites and meringues. Would pure caramel work the same?
+
+[6:21] Also, it seems that caramel binds with water differently than sugar does. It becomes sticky after a while. Would a cake or cookie become soggy? In general, would you recommend I cook all the sugar into a caramel or only part of it? And how do the many components of caramel compare to table sugar, uh i.e.
+
+[6:35] sucrose for sweetness. Uh the first try uh will be a simple caramel flavored meringue. I'll let you know if it works. Um, so here's the thing, right? So it when you're taking uh sugar, sucrose, which is you know, one uh glucose and one fructose molecule bound together, and you cook it uh on its own or with a little bit of water until the water evaporates, until it turns brown uh and starts uh breaking down.
+
+[7:00] You get a number of things uh that happen to it. Uh well, first is you're literally breaking the sugar apart and changing it into something else. So the darker your caramel is, the more sugar you have uh broken down. And you know, uh I don't really understand uh what all those breakdown components uh are, but they're certainly not going to be as sweet. So anytime that you caramelize uh sugar, you are reducing uh its overall sweetness.
+
+[7:28] However, the other thing that you're doing when you're when you're doing this is you're also hydrolyzing some of the sugar into fructose and uh glucose. You're breaking that uh you're breaking that that bond and you're turning it into monosaccharides. Now, the difference is uh between uh between the invert, you're basically adding invert sugar to your recipe. So if you're taking what is amounts to pure sucrose, which we know the properties of, you're converting a portion of it into invert sugar, fructose and glucose, and then you're break further breaking down those uh inverted sugar portions into non-sugar sugar breakdown products. Okay, now to the extent that you have residual invert sugar in your uh in your sugar batch, that stuff is much more uh hygroscopic.
+
+[8:12] It's gonna pull uh pull up water more. So it's gonna have the same effect as adding corn syrup to something like a cookie or a cake, i.e. it's going to increase its ability to pull uh water in. So you probably won't have uh as much uh snap there, or you'll need to use other things to control uh the water ape uh uptake. Um now the other thing I have to say is that if you look online at people that have made uh caramel powder, and the typical way that they do it is they'll uh just cook sugar uh and then they'll uh pour it into onto a sheet.
+
+[8:45] Uh that you know, they'll cook it to a specific brown note, they'll pour it onto a sheet, and remember the sugar will be sweetness will be reduced, and it will probably be more hygroscopic. Uh, and then they pulse it in a RoboCo until it's a powder, and then you have to use that right away or it starts sticking up. However, if you look at some of the com uh comments on recipes like that on the on the interwebs, because I haven't uh I haven't really uh I've never had an occasion to to actually do this myself. But if you look at a lot of the com uh comments, people are like, it tasted kind of good, but it didn't really add that caramel flavor that I wanted to the recipes I was looking at. And then it dawned on me that uh when you say when one says caramel, and since you're in France, maybe you don't have this problem, but if it in America, when you say caramel to someone, they don't really think caramelized sugar unless they're talking about uh something on top of a creme brulee.
+
+[9:37] Typically, when an American says caramel, they mean caramel candy, which is kind of like a toffee-like candy that we eat, like craft brand caramels. Do you like those, Stas? Because they're delicious, right? Jack, fan of the caramels? I am.
+
+[9:49] You know what Stas and I actually both like? Uh, and we tried to imitate once, and we've miserable failure. Remember this? So uh Gets, it's pronounced Getz, but it's spelled GERTS, G-O-E-U-T-Z. You know, but it's pronounced Getz, so I don't want to hear anyone tell me that I don't know how to pronounce OE or Oma because it's their name and they can pronounce it how they want, and I happen to be pronouncing it correctly.
+
+[10:08] So suck on that. Uh but anyway, so Gets makes uh like my all-time, all-time favorite candy. Like I can eat so many of these things. And Stas, the miracle thing is that she also likes them, which is you know, kind of odd. Uh for the both of us to like the same thing, it's like, you know, pfft, I don't know.
+
+[10:28] It doesn't happen. Uh so it's called they're called caramel creams, and what they are is they're like a caramel, they're a caramel uh outside ring and a center like bullseye of like this condensed milk sugar stuff. Yeah, they're so good. They're so good, right, Jack? Yeah.
+
+[10:43] They're so freaking good. And they're like the size of a little bit bigger than a quarter, but smaller than a half dollar, and they're cut, you know, into pieces that are maybe oh I don't know, like a quarter inch steak or something like that. God, I could eat a ton of those. They're so delicious. So Stas and I, we wanted to do it where we we were gonna replace the bullseye with coconut flavor because we thought that would be good.
+
+[11:06] And we were just we sucked at it. Yeah, which it was terrible. It's good, right? Yeah. That would be good.
+
+[11:11] And we were gonna whole totally redo it and then do a whole bunch of these, but then we just never did. Um, probably because we're lazy, lazy. Anyway. So if you're looking to mimic the flavor of caramel, like a caramel uh, and they use for some reason I believe they use wheat flour in their recipe, which is weird. But if they they craft caramel, it's not caramelized sugar really that's doing that to you.
+
+[11:31] What you're dealing with there is the browned milk proteins because there is butter and cream typically in at least in a homemade kind of soft caramel. And the temperatures that you're taking those um those things to are more of a firm ball kind of a stage, so kind of a low on the candy thermometer scale, because they're supposed to be soft, right? And so the texture of them is coming a lot from the fat uh and from the uh milk protein, and then milk protein, you're getting almost like a dulce uh dulce de leche kind of uh a flavor, but mixed with a high high proportion of sugar into a stiffer thing. So that's where a lot of people when a lot of people say caramel flavor, they're associating it more with a browned milk butter and a small amount of sugar caramelization, like you would get in a dulce de leche. Uh and so if you're looking to imitate something like that, what you need to do is uh powderize caramel.
+
+[12:26] And to do that, you'd probably need to use something that it would absorb some of that butter fat so that you could incorporate it as a solid powder. And for that you could use something like Ensorbit brand tapioca multixtrin, but you wouldn't want to let this stuff get totally uh solidified in until you're done. I think there's some people online who have who have done it um hopefully with with some success. So uh I I would do it uh that way, but I would I don't know, I would ex I would experiment. Another way is you could probably um I mean it'd be difficult to get the milk do they did they make a they don't make a browned milk powder that I know.
+
+[13:01] Anyway, but I would try I would try doing that. So the question is are you trying to get the flavor of caramelai sugar or are you trying to get the flavor of caramels? Uh and your second question was uh I got a collar here if you want to jump into that first. Alright, call collar you were on the air. How are you doing?
+
+[13:17] I'm doing all right, how you do? Good. It's Antoine Collin from Boca Rifle Florida. Nice. How's it going?
+
+[13:23] How's it down there? Is it is it hot as hell? Always man. Yeah. And humid?
+
+[13:29] Always humid. I always align with you on how gross it is on here, but we'll do them. Well luckily for you it's pretty gross up here today too. At least uh if it probably wasn't that bad but the bike over in Brooklyn Nova anyway. So go ahead, you had a question.
+
+[13:43] Yeah. Um basically I always wanted to get your idea and thoughts on um just health and nutrition more than anything else. Like I like to eat, but I'm not so fond of working it off or I want to know what sort of things you uh believe as far as like health claims as to whether to reduce uh and any of the claims whether it's reducing complex carbohydrates or sugars, um, what things do you believe in as far as keeping a good balanced health. I mean, I like to eat a little bit of everything, you know, but some things obviously taste better than others. Right.
+
+[14:17] Uh I don't uh I don't believe in any really uh health claims. I mean um to be honest, I sometimes believe that specific things uh that have you know good studies in them actually cause harm. You know, like I do kind of believe that if you consume large amounts of coffee grounds that you'll you it's possible that your cholesterol might spike because I believe they've done studies on that, you know, controlled kind of studies on it. But most of the nutritional uh guidelines are uh problematic. I think people are getting better at it over the years, you know, you know, better now than they were, let's say ten, twenty years ago.
+
+[14:58] But if you were to go back and follow uh strictly follow the kind of theoretical underpinnings of nutritional science from fifteen years ago, you would be almost completely at odds with what the uh with what people are saying uh now, uh other than the strict adherence, you know, to variety in moderation, which you know hasn't changed, right? Eating a reasonable amount of food in wide variety has not changed, you know, ever really. Uh and and but like all of the specific things, like it's it's fat fat is your enemy twenty years ago as fat was your enemy, right? And then it's oh car you know, carbohydrates are your are your enemy and you can eat as much fat and protein as you want, and then it shifts around to well now it's a specific kind of carbohydrate or now it's a specific kind of fat. And while you know it for instance it may be true that trans fats specifically are are are bad, most people now don't believe that um fats are bad.
+
+[15:51] Now, the the problem here, so yeah, everyone on their sugar, on their sugar cakes and all this other the problem here is that it's very hard because if you just you can't just throw away everything that people tell you uh from a nutrition standpoint because you're still falling back, I think, onto kind of a poisoned mindset for what uh you know proper uh proper nutrition is. I think, and you know, I actually wrote something, we didn't submit it yet because someone thought it was too preachy, but maybe we'll submit it uh to eater, where it's like, you know, I think the the main point is that we have a poisoned relationship towards our food in general here in the US, and I think it um it alters um it alters our consumption patterns. Our our our ideas towards food alter our consumption patterns. So instead of instead of like over the course of uh you know a month or a year or two years, kind of trying to reset like what we think is uh sating and good and delicious, so you know uh we we try to take moral attitudes towards our food, like our this food is good, this food is bad, this food is junk, this food is healthy, and the healthy food we kind of crave to eat it for moral reasons, but in general, things that are cooked specifically to be healthy tend to suck and not be as sating, so we eat more of it, and then we cheat and we eat things that we think are junk because we crave them. And this whole sort of poisoned attitude uh towards food, along with a healthy, healthy dose of kind of the magic bullet thinking that we get from um you know, quack doctors like Dr.
+
+[17:17] Oz, who tell you that this or that raspberry ketone or this or that uh you know, X, Y, or Z micronutrient from somewhere in South America is gonna save us all from the fact that we haven't controlled or had a good thoughts about our diet in, you know, basically our whole lives. And so this kind of thinking of how we're gonna get around the problems we have, I think, is a lot of the problem that we have. So, you know, in general, like if you were to say, okay, I'm not gonna limit what I'm gonna eat and I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna eat whatever I want just because it tastes good uh the problem is is that when you first start doing that you're gonna gravitate towards the stuff that you've been denying yourself and you're gonna overeat binge on it and so yeah it's gonna be unhealthy after a while so I don't know the question how do we how do we get ourselves back on track where we can say okay I'm gonna cook to make stuff taste good and then I'm just not gonna eat so freaking much of it you know and I think that's really kind of the the the way to go to it. I mean uh to me like the classic snack wells problem is is that someone's like well I'm buying these snack wells and they're healthy but you know I I can't just eat one or two of them and you know because A I can't just eat one or two of them because I'm not sated and B somehow I think they're healthier for me so I can pound the hell out of them. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:26] It's just a poison relationship. And so rather than think about the particular health or nutrient basis, especially the nutrient basis I think you know we're so we have so much over nutrition nine tenths of us in this country not nine tenths but like those of us with money have so much of an o over nutrition problem that um you know that to worry about whether you're getting this much vitamin C or this much whatever I mean it really just doesn't come up. I mean most of us aren't deficient in anything. I'm deficient in vitamin D because I avoid the sun as though I was a a vampire but uh you know I'm kind of odd that way. So it's I don't know if this is making any sense but I mean really what I think you know we should now think it can be difficult.
+
+[19:07] So for instance if you go to a supermarket and you and you happen to live in a supermarket that is in in live near a supermarket that's in kind of a shitty area, it tends to be hard to shop because all the stuff that, you know, like when I like, you know, when you go to like a a a really good supermarket or a farmer's market, like you see things that, you know, the average, uh the average health jackwad would say is healthy, and you're like, damn, that looks delicious. That's a delicious looking tomato. That's a delicious looking X, Y, and Z. And that stuff just doesn't look so delicious or satisfying at a crappy supermarket. And so you tend to gravitate towards the stuff that's uh you know shelf stable and and c and just bad quality and so that you end up eating, you know, a lot of that and I think that throws uh things off.
+
+[19:47] So it's it's a complicated problem. Uh and I guess my feelings on it are rather complicated. No, it's funny because uh I used to work at a raw juice bar and um right during that time that I was working there I was listening to your whole segment on the uh raw foods and obviously I I enjoy cooked food but you know I had to make a living and as I did that I started turning on them a little bit of listening to certain things I was like you guys are full of it a little bit. Plus we also had five guys in front of us footers and I started eating there more frequently for whatever reason. Well yeah I mean that makes look I think that the I that is a great point.
+
+[20:30] I mean I love this. Jack we should put that on our uh on our on our whatever you put things on. But the uh the thing we put things on yeah I don't even I don't know what it's called you know somewhere out there. But the you know I think it's really a good point. I think and I wrote this in the in the thing that I that you know that we may or may not uh publish it's like a little 500 word essay.
+
+[20:48] I'm like look don't eat don't I think I specifically said don't go eat blended kale blueberries and spirulina. Don't drink that stuff because uh you think you drank too much last night. You know what I mean? Like, drink it, drink it if you like it. Right.
+
+[21:05] Buy buy stuff that you like. And if you drank too much last night, don't drink as much tomorrow. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like that's the better solution, you know. Uh oh my God, I walked into a juice bar the other day with you know, bartenders, by the way, I don't know if you know this, bartenders love uh these raw juice bars because they're perpetually thinking that they're which they are damaging themselves with their lifestyle.
+
+[21:25] I mean, let's be honest. A lot of these, a lot of these folks really, you know, they look they live kind of rough lives. You know, I mean, if you look at, you know, rock stars, which is much rougher version, I mean, they don't age well. You know what I'm saying? Keep it.
+
+[21:36] I mean, in all in all fairness, I actually went from working as a bartender to the raw juice bar. So yeah, well, there you have it. So I go to with with one of my bartenders to uh Liquiteria, which is a raw juice bar here, and and uh this is not really apropos, it's just I thought it was so hilarious. I walk in there and uh, you know, I'm not gonna buy uh I'm not gonna buy like a blended. I I like to eat fruit a lot.
+
+[21:58] I could eat as much fruit as in is in a smoothie in fruit form because I'm a weird guy that way. I you've seen me eat like three quarts of blueberries in a row, right, stuff in solid form, but but I like blueberries a lot. But anyways, so I go in there and I'm like, uh, do you have any seltzer water? And the guy says, because you know, you know, my bartender friend was having some sort of liquid monstrosity, and I said, um, seltzer, and he goes, No, have you tried coconut water? I was like, what the f I was like, is your coconut water carbonated?
+
+[22:29] And he goes, No. And I'm like, what the hell? You know? Have you tried, you know, have you tried getting, you know, I'd like some seltzer water. Have you tried me punching you in the face?
+
+[22:38] I mean, they're just totally unrelated. I mean, they both happen to be liquids, but you know, beyond liquid form, I guess he thought I just wanted a non-flavored or light liquid. It's like, no, I want a carbonated liquid without sugar in it. Thanks. But uh anyway.
+
+[22:51] So uh I appreciate the feedback you gave me, and I'm glad I pegged you uh without knowing so, as a former bartender, turned juice person, turned five guys customer. So I think you're I think you're approaching I think you're approaching some sort of balance. I think you're like, you know, you're going through the balance, uh you're going through hopefully the sinusoidal waves uh like mellow out and then you you know you get to a point where you just have like a a steady, steady diet of delicious stuff in moderation. Wow, call it the sine wave diet. Yeah.
+
+[23:21] Yeah, well the the the uh the damped sine wave, right? It has to go down towards it has to go down towards a f the flat value. Right, right. Yeah, it's like a square wave. Yeah, you don't want to you don't want wait no, you don't want to be sinusoidal, but you don't want it to like be amplified over time and spool off into into into trauma at the end, you know.
+
+[23:39] Uh you know, then you end up being like a f fruitarian, you don't even which is like like a or or jane or jane's have you has anyone ever met a Jane, a true Jainist? Yeah, we had one on the on the radio station. He was in a band. Like he's in a band? Yeah.
+
+[23:53] How do you play an instrument that doesn't harm a bug? Tough. Yeah, I mean, like I I kind of have an appreciation for anyone who's like, I don't eat onions because they inflame the passions too much. How what kind of music do you play if you're a Jane? Like it's like world music, I think.
+
+[24:09] But it can't like incite the passions anyway, right? It's all about like, ooh, like nothing, right? Did he have the he or she have the the the bug mask on? No. So it's kind of like I don't think it was I don't think it was so extreme, but oh, so didn't sweep didn't sweep the ground uh ahead of him or her?
+
+[24:25] Not quite. His name is Sonny Sonny Jane, actually. Yeah. Alright. Sonny Jane.
+
+[24:31] From Red Barat, which is they call themselves party music. I don't think Jane's party. If if you can't eat an onion on a moral basis, I don't think you can party. But we'll look it up. I mean, I'm not a j an expert on Jainism by any stretch.
+
+[24:44] But anyway, thank you so much for your call and uh keep calling back, especially if you uh say funny stuff about working at juice bars. Alright, bye. Uh Jack, should we go to a commercial break? Yeah, I'm also vitamin uh D deficient, by the way. Oh yeah?
+
+[24:58] Yeah, they had to give me like prescription uh, you know, extra strength pills. I called them sun pills. Recently? Um, no, a few years ago. Really?
+
+[25:05] Do you dip yourself in SPF two billion? No. See, I I don't I don't either, but I I wear hats and like long sleeve like me too. Yeah, Sas, have you ever you've seen pictures of like my wife has sent uh uh of me on the beach in long pants, long shirt, hat, sunglasses. Yeah, that's me too.
+
+[25:22] Yep. Vampire coming back with cooking issues. The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color.
+
+[25:57] The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham dot com. Man, I think we're all lucky there's not a barn nearby, because you know that's the if there's a barn nearby with that music going, it's all over.
+
+[26:29] Right? Right, Jack? Isn't that what we said? It's the uh it's the pre it's the it's the country music pre-Levin Tunes. There's like a shed in the back.
+
+[26:36] I don't know. Uh now you're ruining it for us. Now we have to like, you know, everyone needs to chain ourselves down so that we don't all run in the back by the shed. It's not a real shed, it's a Brooklyn shed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:47] It's not real, it's not romantic. Well, it is for that. Is that is that uh puffy legged bird still there? I haven't seen them in a while. There was a there's a hipster dove who lived at uh at uh Roberta's and then uh and then we saw another dove there, pigeon really, not dove, pigeon.
+
+[27:03] Anyway, like the pigeon mysteriously disappeared right around the same time, Indy Jesus. Coincidence? Wow, you think it just flew off? I don't know. Like a white winged dove.
+
+[27:13] Um a second question on Italian meringue. Uh, as the macaron recipe I have calls for it. I'd rather not move around, I'd rather not move around the cesiup. Uh, by the way, you know Italian meringue, right? You you whip the egg whites and then you cook the hell out of the syrup, you pour the syrup in super hot, and you whip it into the kitchen aid or whatever you happen to have when the syrup's hot.
+
+[27:31] I'd rather not move around the syrup when it's very hot. Close to 120 on the Celsius. Uh could I make the syrup first and let it cool to a more reasonable 60 or 70 C before I pour into the egg whites. I understand the Caesarup helps cook the whites, but I was never told the benefit of that. French meringues is made with all the ingredients at room temperature and Swiss meringues are heated to 50 or 60 C.
+
+[27:50] Many thanks and keep up the good work, Stan B. Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. So there is a cooking, but obviously uh, you know, I don't know what the finished temperature is when it all balances out. The issue is, and I don't know, again, I don't know, because when I've done these uh recipes before, I've only ever just followed the recipes.
+
+[28:07] But uh one thing that is true is if you're pouring uh sugar syrup that's at 120 C into uh egg whites, you're gonna lose a lot more, you're gonna lose a lot more uh moisture from like sudden evaporation into the in as steam into uh the kitchen and away from your meringues than you would if you uh if you didn't. So my guess is that um my guess is that if you let it cool, you'll have a higher liquid content in your uh finished meringue than you would, aside from any cooking. Let's erase any cooking issues from it, huh? Because uh because theoretically you're you're gonna cook these this meringue anyway. But my guess is that you'd be messing with the water balance.
+
+[28:55] I don't know uh what the high temperature there is doing to the proteins more or less than it than it would at a lower temperature. Let's even say 80 C or something like this, something that's well above the temperature that would set the egg whites. So I don't know, but it could be the water balance might be a problem. I'd appreciate anyone sending in a tweet or a comment who has more experience uh, you know, uh maybe our favorite uh uh you know macaron blog uh blogger, you know who you are, uh could write in uh and tell us uh what she thinks about it. Anyway, uh many thanks, keep up the good work, stand B.
+
+[29:27] We have a question in from Jean-Pierre that I'm gonna have to ask for some clarification for next time. Uh my question is that uh we wrote a blog about tortillas, and I want to know why when I cook my white corn to make tortillas, they come out brown instead of white or yellow. What am I doing wrong? I'm using field corn. It's not burnt just a brown natural color.
+
+[29:47] That's very odd. You know, why I don't know. Like, why would so because we gotta make sure that you're I mean, I I I need to see it. Like I'd need to know exactly what your procedures are and what you're adding, uh, Jean-Pierre, because I g I can't imagine why they would turn brown brown. I mean, um, maybe s you know, some coloration on them, but I'm not familiar with any um corn corn uh like pre pre colors or color um color precursors that are gonna go brown uh under the treatment uh under nixtimalization, but uh I could be wrong and I've seen and I've done white corn and it comes out pretty white.
+
+[30:27] I mean, maybe a little bit beige, but not brown. So, you know, there must be something with uh the technique that you're doing. So just tell me, like send me uh an email with uh, you know, for the question and I'll answer it next week with kind of exactly like step by step what you're doing in the recipe so that I can help uh troubleshoot. Like the more steps the better, because you know, you'll maybe include the step where it's where I can figure out what's going on. Okay.
+
+[30:53] Uh hi Dave and Nastasha and uh the gentleman or the gentleman in the booth. Hello. Hello. Uh I'm wondering if you have any advice on diluting 35% cream with water to make something close to 3.25% milk. I tried it once using a blend tech HP3A.
+
+[31:09] That's a blender. Uh cream and water, and it didn't really taste like milk, and I think the fat did not emulsify. Do you have any advice? I want to do this because I'd rather carry a liter of cream home from a grocery store than four liters of milk. And if it works well, it would be potentially a bit cheaper too.
+
+[31:24] Michael from uh Toronto. P.S. thanks for hanging out at Dice uh with the hangout at Dyshow uh after uh Soylent Green. Did we talk about that? I did the I did the uh remember that?
+
+[31:34] I did the a uh it's made of people. Do you know there was someone in the audience who was there who claimed to not know that that soil and green was made of people beforehand? It's PayPal, that's really great. Did you watch the movie? You've seen it?
+
+[31:46] Jack, you a fan of the Soil and Green? I haven't seen the movie, but I'm familiar with the story. It's not a bad movie, and it's it's Ever G. Robinson's last movie, and uh, you know, and it's got the Charlton Heston in it. And regardless of what you think about prying guns out of his cold dead, you know, fingers, he was a good actor, you know what I'm saying?
+
+[32:05] Apparently he was kind of a a sweet dude. I mean, not a not a not a jerk, is what I hear. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I mean, like it some people are complete jerks and you still like their stuff, right? Like Michael Stipe.
+
+[32:15] Jerk, music good. You like REM? No. You don't like R.E.M. Yeah, we've talked about it.
+
+[32:20] Why? What about you, Jack? Yeah. No, I mean they're good. You don't like Don't Go Back to Rockville?
+
+[32:26] That's a good tune. It's a little, it's like a it's just like just before my time, you know. I remember losing my religion liking that song as a kid. Yeah, but I mean, like a lot of things are before your time, you still like it. Like Stas pretends to like the Beatles, even though she hates over half of their catalog.
+
+[32:41] I would've guessed you hate the Beatles. Well, she hates all the songs you like. Oh, right. She's like, it like, you know, if there's some sort of song that you like or that anyone listens to on a regular basis at the Beatles of the Club. I think all their songs are great.
+
+[32:54] I just think that a lot of them are radio played, and they have so many great songs that the radio chooses the same ones over and over. So I don't feel like listening to those ones anymore. That's fair. See, when I, you know, as I got older, like I had more tolerance for the songs that were overplayed on the radio as I was a kid. Really?
+
+[33:17] Oh yeah. Like I couldn't, when I was or like overplayed by like the kids in in the in the smoking section. Like I there was a there was a chunk of time when I couldn't listen to Led Zeppelin because it's all that got played next to me. It was like Led Zeppelin. I'm like I'm done.
+
+[33:29] And then I was like, you know what? Led Zeppelin is there's a reason why those kids were listening to it so much because it's great stuff. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You like Led Zeppelin, right?
+
+[33:39] Finally something. You don't like Led Zeppelin Jack? You know, I I I have a problem with the the not crediting the source material. They they took a lot of those songs from older blues musicians and yeah but I mean they're good. I like the records.
+
+[33:55] They're okay musicians. But I mean his voice okay bottom yeah medium drummer. Yeah plant got some pipes man. Nah do whereas do you like uh do you like uh uh what's his name Steve Miller because he does credit people Steve Miller is it because I'll take Zeppelin over Miller is it Abercadabra that did it to you? Come on dude Steve Miller Stas had this argument I had this argument with Nastasha like a couple years ago she's like what kind of hits does Steve Miller have like no like really he had like what seven eight no he had like like 10 or 12 mega hits.
+
+[34:46] No I bet it's I bet it's ever eight an eagle? Yeah look up how many we'll let your spirit carry you to the list of of songs they have done that's like well the reason I was saying that uh you know for Jack's benefit, is because he did not write big old jet airliner, but ended up in an era when people didn't give a lot of money back, even though I think the person who wrote it didn't really have access to his own publishing rights or something like this, ended up uh giving that guy a lot of money, and was the reason that guy didn't die in poverty was because of Steve Miller's version of Big Old Jet Airliner. Please don't carry me too far away. And uh well, I almost did that with the Casey Caseon. Rest in peace, Casey Kasem.
+
+[35:27] You know, do you like Casey Casum Jackson? I listen to Casey Casey. Oh my god. Okay, so I'm sorry we're going far afield cooking issues, people, but like back in the in the I think it was late 80s or early 90s, Casey Kasem had an outtake where uh he was doing an introduction to someone's dog that died, and the dog's name was I forget what it was, something like Fluffy or Snuggle Snuggles, it was Snuggles. And uh he was introducing U2 and like to commemorate the fact that uh that this dog Snuggles had died, and he was doing his typical thing, and then he kind of flubbed the uh he flubbed the thing and he was like and he starts cursing and screaming at at the engineer for having him like go do this downer, like he's like, and his dog died, and and then he starts he has to talk about you too, and he's like, These guys are English, and who gives it?
+
+[36:16] And he's like going like off on it, and then so they have like uh I forget what tune it was, like Unforgettable Fire or something like this, and Flatland, the the you know, kind of concept band, did uh a thing where they had somehow stolen those outtakes and just have Casey Caseon cursing and screaming about you two being English, which is hilarious. And and uh, yeah, mmm, strong concept music. Anyway, uh back in the day. Uh okay. Hello everyone, it's Mildred from Albany, New York.
+
+[36:43] I'm still working through the backlog of up to episode 137 right now, but I skipped ahead to get Dave's suggestion on soy sauce replacements. Thanks so much for the suggestions and for getting my last name right. I haven't had a chance to try any of the suggestions yet, but mushroom ketchup was something I'd already wanted to try due to my uh interest in historical food. I have two follow-up questions for Dave and any guess that you may have here. Like moach m the like most ketchup recipes, there is a reduced to one half or two-thirds or more of the original volume step.
+
+[37:08] Could I change that to one third or one quarter to keep the consistency more liquid and closer to soy sauce uh for the marinade we're trying to recreate? Uh you mentioned that I could ferment uh you two, you meant yeah, probably, but the thing is if you don't reduce, the two things are happening when you reduce. One, you're getting rid of uh liquids, right? Duh. And so you're gonna have a more concentrated flavor if you uh reduce more.
+
+[37:31] Second, uh you are boiling off uh some volatiles. So, for instance, if there are volatiles in there that taste better after they've been boiled a while, they won't taste the same after they've been uh reduced. Secondly, if you reduce enough until things start getting paste-like or start losing a lot of their liquid nature, then you can start getting uh effects due to higher temperatures when you're working. And so you can get more kind of roasty toasty flavors. You just gotta make sure you don't scorch.
+
+[38:00] So in those cases, you'd actually be better off reducing it to its original volume, like they said, and then watering it back a little bit with water or with something else that has flavor in it to try and get that liquid back in. But you have to run a test on your particular recipe to see what tastes better. Then it's easy, just take a small amount of it. Um, and then when you're at the you know, when you're at the point where you, you know, you've reduced it how much you want to for the texture you have in the finished recipe, pull out a little bit, then continue to reduce the rest down to um to you know what the original recipe says to, right? Then take a portion of that, dilute it back to the same texture as the one you pulled out earlier, taste it and see which one you like better, right?
+
+[38:38] I mean, that's that's what I would do. Um and you can um get a feel for whether or not the reduction is actually doing anything beneficial it might do something uh non-beneficial it might actually harm the flavor who knows uh but uh give it a give it a try and then uh two you mentioned I could for m ferment the mushroom ketchup I've never done fermenting like this so I uh would I introduce yeast or something else and should I do this before the reduction phase uh what source resources do you recommend mind you I may not get a chance to do this step the soy soy allergic best friend won't let her husband or I make kimchi in the house so I'm not sure that this will be allowed either. That's why they make garages. Like if you have a house like I don't I don't you know I don't have a house. I have an apartment so like I don't really have any place that I can carry out crazy uh experiments.
+
+[39:21] Uh in other words I can't do anything that's gonna smell bad because I I would hear about it and my dog would probably eat it. But uh actually we could do it at a lab. You hear like styles like yeah thanks. Uh but um I don't know uh frankly uh how uh how you know bad it would smell if you have a vacuum machine fermentation in vacuum bags is always um is always an option you have to make sure that your salt levels are high enough such that everything is uh safe I wouldn't add uh yeast and you're not really gonna probably be doing yeast fermentations with this you're gonna be doing uh mostly lactic acid uh fermentations mostly anaerobic stuff so um what I would do is first pick up a copy of Sandor Katz's book on fermentation because it's extremely uh accessible and uh that dude has fermented almost any damn thing that you can think of and if he hasn't fermented that thing that you can think of, he has found some crazy person somewhere in the world who has fermented said thing, and he has really awesome guidelines. And so he might have guidelines already for this there.
+
+[40:28] I didn't get a chance to look at the book before I before I did, but I would definitely go there. If you have access to a vacuum bag, uh you could try uh doing it under vacuum so that it doesn't smell. Another thing you can do, by the way, is if you don't have a vacuum machine but you have a sealer, you can put it in a ziploc bag, get rid of most of the air in the Ziploc bag. Uh and you know, following similar instructions to what I say in cooking issues for doing a steak in a Ziploc bag, and then put that inside of another bag that you seal. Uh or alternatively, uh put it inside of a larger Ziploc bag.
+
+[41:00] The reason for that second thing, and then inside of the containers, should you have an explosion uh due to gas, because there will be gas, uh most likely there will be gas produced by the fermentation. Um when that happens, if a bag blows, man, right? But if it blows inside of another bag that's sealed, well then it's still contained in that outer bag, right? Right. That's the last time we did uh sauerkraut at the lab.
+
+[41:24] I did it in bags, and you couldn't smell anything until I opened it. And then I stank up the place. Yeah. All right. Anyway, uh, thanks for your time and keep it delicious, Mildred.
+
+[41:33] Okay. Um, all right. Last question, so we're getting close. Do we do we have any good things on Twitter? Yeah, but I I don't know if we have time for that.
+
+[41:41] Well, well, well, you can you can mention them and then we'll we'll we can get it. Woo! All right, so we answer the last one of the question here. Martin from Sweden here. Thanks for a fantastic show.
+
+[41:50] I am a biology biologist, biologist, biologist is gross, right? I'm a biologist and engineer uh who's gotten a lot of enjoyment and learning out of listening to your musings on food and cooking. I'm also one of those annoying a-hole vegetarians. Wow, calling himself an a-hole. I I love vegetarians, I love them.
+
+[42:06] I just don't happen to be one. Vegans, that's tougher. You know what I'm saying? Like if you don't make milk and eggs, I still like you, but I find it harder to cook for you. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:14] Looking to improve my cooking techniques. As you can imagine, I'm having a lot of fun with pressure cooking, hydrocolloids, and infusions. True. A lot of those things work great onto the vegetables. My question though is whether there is any value in applying low temperature cooking to mostly plant-based ingredients.
+
+[42:32] Are there any cool applications or should I simply avoid wasting money on a temperature-controlled water bath? Thanks in advance, Martin. Okay, listen, first of all, Michael Natkin, if you're out there, let me see you dance. Uh for those of you who uh listen to Princess Black album, or if not, uh Michael Lenakin, if you're there, please uh tweet on in some really good applications for circulators uh and um and vegetables from you know from the perspective of an actual honest to God vegetarian. I'll say from my standpoint, it is true that most of the time that I'm cooking veg, even if I'm using vacuum techniques, which I think are very good for uh vegetables, uh I tend to do them uh just in simmering water rather than you know, ways to circulate or bath on it because most vegetables, when you're trying to cook them, you're cooking them uh above eighty-five Celsius anyway, because what you're trying to do is um break down the pectin.
+
+[43:28] And in order to break down the pectin structure and to get a vegetable to be soft, you have to get uh above 85. And there's not a lot of advantage to going much higher than 85. And then once you cook something in a bag as opposed to in boiling water, you don't really get mushy vegetables like you do when you're boiling in water and you overboiled. So there's not a huge advantage to the control when you're doing standard vegetables like that. There's a huge advantage to vacuum bagging, uh, et cetera, etc., but not a huge uh advantage to temperature control.
+
+[43:57] Now, that aside, there are some kind of special things that are done with vegetables that uh are very um useful to have temperature control on. So uh things like heat setting uh like transglutamin A stuff on soy products, that's one. Uh having uh making kombudashi, like kombu dashi, like the taste of kombu dashi is very dependent on the temperatures that are used when you're making said dashi. And so when I make kambudashi, I use temperature control bath because I'm trying to hit around 70 degrees Celsius when I'm using the kombu. Uh I think higher than that the taste is not as good, and lower than that the taste is not as good.
+
+[44:34] So that's a good application for circulator uh with vegetables. Um another is um another is certain things like carrots can have like a uh like a raw taste of a raw crunch of a carrot, but you can get sweetness intensification in a carrot by bagging it and cooking it below its softening temperature, so like 70 C, like overnight. You can get some interesting effects on vegetables like carrots that way. Uh and I also believe that the effects of vacuum in impregnation of flavors, that's gross vacuum impregnation, uh in of flavors into vegetables is accelerated uh under temperature in things like and the useful thing to have a water bath is you can do it without cooking them. You can cook it just below the softening temperature of uh of the vegetable.
+
+[45:21] So you could cook it at like uh, you know, like I say, like 70 or something like this. Um another thing you can do with fruits and vegetables if you have controlled water bath, is you can do uh enzyme related things. So you can do um, you know, Steingarden's uh famous mashed potatoes that were then taken up by Joel Robichon and by Wiley Dufrey and all these, where he does an intermediate step, an intermediate cook step where he uh strengthens the uh granules by um uh I believe it's a pectin methylesterase thing, causing the you know, the starch gri I believe that's what he's doing. I believe he that he's setting the structure of it more. I don't remember the exact chemistry of it, but he he takes it to an intermediate step, enzymatic step that sets the starch granules in place so that they don't uh break when you doing it.
+
+[46:09] And that's his famous kind of potato. And you can also do that in french fries. I don't particularly like it in french fries, but you can do it. And for that, he used to do it on the stove top, just trying to get very accurate temperature, but it's a lot easier if you have a circulator to do things like that. Um so there are uh special techniques.
+
+[46:25] Um there are special techniques like that that um you know are good for veg or for uh soy. Uh and obviously if you eat eggs, eggs alone are a reason enough to buy a circulator. So if you don't eat eggs, if you you know, that's a whole a whole separate ball of wax. But just for egg cookery alone, I think a circulator is uh worth it. So um, but hopefully Michael will uh write in uh and you know, or tweet in and tell us some other great applications that maybe are more widely applicable to uh the vegetarian community.
+
+[46:59] All right. In the five minutes we got left, Stas going to go over some uh some sweet tweets that we got in, because I didn't get a chance to go over uh last week's uh tweets. So what do we got? You have uh ratio we can who's it from the vendor sagal. Did you go over this?
+
+[47:15] Make air out of liquid by adding lecogen powder. Oh, the ratio? Yeah. Jeez, I don't know. It's like under, I think it's under, I I always tend to add kind of like under uh under a percent.
+
+[47:25] The trick with lecithin is that usually you want to heat a little bit, you want to get the powdered lecithin. Um and the the real trick with it, I don't ever do it. I haven't done it since I taught it. And so I forget the the exact ratios I use. But they're widely findable in like just go to Martin Larish's uh textures uh thingamak thingamajig on the on the uh chymos thing and look up any one of the number of the lecithin uh foam things.
+
+[47:49] The real trick to doing it isn't the percentage, the real trick is how you hold your stick blender. So you take your quart container, you stick your stick blender in it, and the bell housing of the stick blender has to go above the level of the liquid. So you have to tilt the quart container or tilt whatever cupper you have it in, and then like at a 45 degree angle or even a little more, and stick the blender in such that the blender, the blades are going out and going back into the liquid. And once you do that, you're frothing and whipping the air into it, and then you can blend it and pull back on it to get the foam, scoop that stuff off and go. And you can keep doing that over the course of the evening uh as you're doing service.
+
+[48:26] And so that's the real trick to lecithin. It's not the actual ratios. That's not the important thing. Okay, Roshan Gunsul Corale says, Dave, do you have any suggestions on Blood Torch in UK for Sears Alburn's dramatic not sell sold here? Unhappy face.
+
+[48:42] Oh, the unhappy face. That's like every Stas face is an unhappy face. Uh so she's making your face for you. But uh we don't know for sure. I hope to go to uh uh England maybe when the book comes out in November.
+
+[48:56] We think that Rothenberger makes a torch. I forget the name of it. We think that Rothenberger makes a torch that's a good uh substitute. Here's what you need in a torch to have it be good for a Searzol. A, it needs to have uh a high heat output, uh, you know, no higher than the Burnsomatic T S uh 8000, but no lower than the TS 4000.
+
+[49:17] So that's about uh somewhere between uh anything between about seven, I forget what the 4000 is, but somewhere between like 7,000 BTUs uh per hour and like 12,000 BTUs per hour in that range. It needs to have uh it in the tip where the tip is, it needs to be the right diameter, which I don't have in my head, but it's not, you know, it's uh somewhere near five eighths of an inch. And the important thing is that the that tip has to have a um little fins of metal on the inside. Uh they create a twisting motion that mixes the air so it's pre-mixed. And uh, think those are called vortex burners or something like this.
+
+[49:51] Everyone has their own different thing, they call that turbo, whatever. Needs to have that. It also uh very key needs to have a uh needs to be not pointed any uh further than uh I forget whether it's 30 or 45 degrees the burn somatic is because otherwise you're gonna be off center when you have the uh torch on it and it becomes an issue of falling over and it becomes a safety hazard in terms of its stability if the torch head is pointed too far down. Next, it needs to have a trigger start on it so that when you press the trigger, not only does it ignite the piezo so that it ignites the flame, but it also when you release the trigger, the uh torch has to turn off. And that's one of the key reasons why we never bothered developing the Iwatani to its final stage, because you had to turn the gas on with one knob and then press the trigger to ignite it, but when you release the trigger, the torch stayed on, and we felt that that was not good for a searsol.
+
+[50:41] That's just not safe for searsol. Uh and uh last but not least, the piezo element should be located uh relatively far down the gas delivery tube so that it doesn't overheat. That's another problem the Iwatani had is that the piezos would burn out after a while because the way they're designed, there is some cherry red around the uh tip of the of the torch tip, even in normal circumstances. And just the little bit hotter that it got when uh when it was on a Searzol was enough to uh ruin the piezos after a couple of hours of firing. And so, you know, anyway, so those are the main things.
+
+[51:15] From the way we look at it on the interwebs, the Rothenberger, I think it's called Surefire 2 or something, I guess I forget. Uh seems to be uh seems to look like it would function with those things, but I can't recommend it until I actually use one. But the next time I'm in the EU, I'm gonna buy one and see whether it works. Uh wait, could we have uh we're we're well, anyways. We'll try to go over the uh Jack.
+
+[51:38] We're done, right? We're done. We're done. All right, so that's it for cooking issues. We'll try to get more of the tweets next time.
+
+[51:43] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[52:06] Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairway market.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:01] Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. Whoa, coming to your funky! Coming to your funky.
+
+[1:09] What was that, Jack? Oh, that's funny. We should play that real quick. It's like two seconds long. Oh yeah.
+
+[1:18] Cheese. Oh, cheese, cooking issues. Is that like a new theme song for us? It's for cutting the card. Let me get that one more time now.
+
+[1:27] We'll bring up the Come on. Uh, come on. Cheese. Sounds like it could have been a Bluetooth song, maybe. Yeah, that's all-style Bluetooth stuff.
+
+[1:39] Yeah, maybe. Sweet. Uh we joined as uh usual Jack and uh Nastasha the Hammer. However, do we still have a collar on the air? Yeah, I do have a caller.
+
+[1:46] Why don't we do a show with a caller? Yeah, why don't we do that and then we'll get back to our little uh niceties and pleasantries and what that. Caller, you are on the air. Hi, Dave, how are you? Alright, how are you doing?
+
+[1:55] Good, thanks. I was wondering, um, how well something like a champion juicer would do for making uh like pistachio paste and kind of nut butters and uh if it works for kind of making desserts for something like that. Well, I as it so happens, Nastasia and I have a lot of experience using the champion juicer for exactly that task. Uh so the first thing you did, do you own one already? Sorry?
+
+[2:23] Do you already own a champion juicer? No, I'm I'm thinking about getting one, and I think that would kind of be the uh a kind of tipping point that would make me go out and get one. Yeah, it works well. Here's the deal it heats it up. So if you're one of these believers that everything has to say hyper cold as you're doing it, that ain't gonna happen because there's a lot of friction generated in inside of the champion.
+
+[2:44] But uh but Saz, how many, how many like how many zillion pounds of nuts have we put through champion juicers before? So many. I think we had an event, right? For one, and we well huge amount of people. We went through that that kick where I was doing all nut milks in the centrifuge and I was making nut butters uh and spinning and making nut oils.
+
+[3:02] Remember that? Yeah. And we were just making like we would have to make like like a gallon of of uh of uh uh of like uh uh what was it, cashew no pecan oil that we would go then? We would go through all those tins of pecans from uh those nuts. Oh my god.
+
+[3:18] So the short story is it works. Um you might need to add uh like you might need to grind it a couple of times. What we used to do is we used to we used to put it through the champion for the first pass, and then we would put it into a uh into a stone grinder to get it down like hyper fine, like commercial peanut butter fine. Um but yeah, sucker works. It also grinds cocoa nibs quite well for the for the initial grind, you're gonna need to put it into like a stone mill to get it down to actual chocolate grind stuff.
+
+[3:47] Uh the one uh thing that uh you gotta watch out for is after you grind the second five pounds in a row without stopping, the um it it heats up rather severely and uh champion juicer will heat itself up to the point where it melts the uh it melts the safety interlocks and that the motor is hot enough to boil water. So I mean uh yeah, you should give at least the ones that I've used. So you should give it a rest before it asks for it, because it's not gonna ask for a rest. It's just gonna keep on going until a until I don't know, until a fire starts or something. Do you ever have one of those things actually kick out on you?
+
+[4:21] I don't know that it has a thermal stuff. Remember that time that we put all the towels in the water and put on the back and it was like a sauna because it was like boiling the water off of the towels. Um another thing is is that uh every professional chef who buys a champion juicer, and there are many, uh, instantly loses the blind plate. So the bottom of the champion juicer either has a mesh screen that you use for juices or a blind plate that you're supposed to use for things like frozen bananas if you're a believer in that sort of thing. Or nuts.
+
+[4:49] And so you don't want to you don't want to lose that. But uh yeah, it works. Oh, I think we might have lost it. I heard a click clack. Anyways, uh he heard most of what was important anyway, right?
+
+[4:58] He got it. He he got it. He's got that. Anyway, so uh now for the intro and pleasantry. So later than normal had a flat tire today.
+
+[5:07] Flat tire on the Williamsburg Bridge, which I love. Going up, but here's it was kind of a miracle, like the my bike wanted me to be late, but he didn't want me to be too late because I no longer carry with me the stuff to fix flat tires. I should just start carrying that. The patch is so small. It's just, I don't know, somehow like I started swatching bags back and forth, and so then I I just don't have the bike repair kit with me anymore.
+
+[5:27] But I do have a pump on me, thank Christ. Thank God I mean I mean thank goodness. Uh bleep bleep bleep bleep. Uh so I'm going up to Williamsburg, right? But still too late to turn back, because you know you can't get a taxi in my neighborhood like anywhere near as noon.
+
+[5:41] So I hear you know that noise? Mm-hmm. And so I'm like, oh crap. So I looked down, sure enough, my front tires going, and uh, but some miracle it stopped deflating before I was down on the rim. So I was like, what am I gonna do?
+
+[6:02] So I just pumped it up to like two-thirds of its rated pressure, and I slowly leaked all the way here. I made it all the way here with a slow leak. I even passed some dingleberry on a freaking like mini moped thing. Styles wants to beat you so for those of you that live in New York City, like there's these dudes riding around these uh it's almost always dudes, right? It's only delivery people, which are mostly mostly dudes, yeah.
+
+[6:28] And they're on these damned electric bikes, and it's like they're not electric though, that's just like an attachment, right? Well, they they like someone somewhere designed, they took a normal bike that a crappy normal bike and they bolted a battery pack and like a little motor to it. So yeah, they mean like they're they're designed to be that way. Okay-ish. But every delivery you've seen these jack, right?
+
+[6:52] I have, yeah. What are your thoughts on I don't really I don't know. They're like cars. He's like Jack's like, I own one. But uh no, we all know that Jack doesn't drive bikes because he drives cars.
+
+[7:04] That's right. As we all know, they're mutually exclusive. Captain Sustainability, Jack Inslee over there. That's me. Yeah.
+
+[7:10] Uh by the way, when we come out of commercial break, we should hear the uh cheese song again because it'll be like that, huh? Did you write the cheese song? I didn't, no. Who wrote the cheese song? Uh I'll find out, but Diane Stempel is the uh the host who who brought us that song.
+
+[7:23] I think it was a friend of hers. Cheese. I do have a caller whenever we're Oh, yeah, caller, you're on the air. Hey, how's it going? Dave Nastasha and Jack.
+
+[7:31] Nice. Love you guys' music. It's the best, always, man. Especially now that we have a cheese song. Cheese.
+
+[7:38] I didn't get to hear that one today, but in the reruns. Anyways, it's uh Antoine from Bulk Rook Tone just calling back. Oh, hey, hang on. We were talking about we were talking about health and bartending. Exactly, yeah.
+
+[7:51] And how they may not be related or mutually exclusive. Exactly. Uh yeah, I had a few questions this week. Um one of them was your thoughts and comments about this uh potential ban on raw milk cheeses. What do you mean?
+
+[8:07] I mean uh oh, uh they are they trying to ban uh even older than sixty days? Yeah. Oh that's their uh I was banned. My girlfriend works at Whole Foods for the uh specialty department, and they were saying recently that that they want to ban all raw milk cheeses even over 60 days. Yeah, I saw some like uh blips and bleeps about that a couple of months ago on one of the cheese blogs.
+
+[8:33] Like it was like pushed to my Twitter account. Somebody was like, Oh my cheese, and then I haven't heard anything about it since Jack. Have you guys talked about this at all in any of the cheese programs we have? I will I'll shoot them a line and ask. I mean, what make i if anyone were to actually push something through like that, I mean, I think that's a that's absolutely preposterous.
+
+[8:49] I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's an absurdity. I mean, what do you know what the proposed reason for it is? I mean, as as far as I've heard, I mean, it's it's been a huge game of telephone for me because one person heard from another person, but as far as I know, they want to ban any cheeses that are raw milk cheeses. So your air forward Parmesan Parmigiano Reggiano Barmagiano Region is made with raw milk, is it not?
+
+[9:17] It is, right? Exactly, yeah. I mean it's a it's preposterous. I mean uh the current regulation I think is even uh too obviously too stringent. Um I did hear some rumblings about it but I don't know.
+
+[9:28] I mean if someone's proposing it's an absolute absurdity. I mean my feeling was from the get go and you know I s I spoke years ago to some uh food safety people about it. I mean you gotta remember the way food safety I don't know I don't think this is a food safety concern. I mean I don't know when the last time somebody got poisoned from Parmigiano Reggiano is oh wait I know when it was it was never because it's never happened. But the um the issue is is that uh food safety people write laws because um for instance you're allowed to have sushi even though it goes through procedures you're allowed to have steak tartare or rare steak because the assumption is is that when you order that you know the risks that you're taking on and what the raw milk stuff with cheeses is because the they you know uh they they figure that the average consumer wants everything to be as safe as like a hyper pasteurized like American cheese product is right and that and that the customers don't know that they might be assuming a uh uh uh a risk of pathogens that they don't they're not aware of if they consume a raw milk cheese that's young that's their theory anyway and so my feeling was like put a label on it.
+
+[10:31] I'm allowed to I'm allowed to smoke, you know, so like why can't I have a ra a raw milk cheese as long as it says on it like like raw milk may kill you. The same way that like you know, when you serve someone a raw egg at a restaurant, you say, This is a raw egg, this might kill you, and if that scares you, please order something else, you know. Uh I mean I always thought that was a better kind of a I mean like I think people would buy it more if it had a big parental advisory, do not eat will kill you label on it. I mean, think of how much more of that they'd sell, you know. Totally, you know.
+
+[11:01] Uh so yeah, so I I'll look into it because uh I remember I heard some rumblings and then I it totally fell. But Jack, are you gonna you're gonna write a note to yourself to follow up with this? I'm writing a note to myself to come up with the parental advisory food line, because I think that'll that'll really work out. I mean it works for music, right? Yeah, I mean like sells a lot of music, right?
+
+[11:21] Yeah. I mean, I mean, look it, I mean, a lot of that early stuff would have sold without the label because it was like so over the top, you know, like and NWA and stuff. I mean, that stuff was so over the top that you know it didn't really require a label for kids to know. Yeah, Tipper Gore didn't need to come out and tell me that that stuff was kind of like a little bit over the top. But uh, you know, some of this stuff, the milder stuff with the parental guidance of you know, you go to the store and you're like, which one of these things is gonna piss my parents off the most, and you just search out for the labels.
+
+[11:49] Could be the same thing with cheese, you know. Same thing with like the hot peppers. There's tr you heard about this Trinidad Scorpion pepper that's like like one and a half times hotter than the Naga Joloki pepper. What's the point in that? Does anyone know what the point is?
+
+[12:00] Are you a hot pepper eater? I love all anything that makes me hurt, I love the most. Have you tried the Trinidad Scorpion? No, no, I haven't. Yeah, so like it's there's a whole like you know what you know what I'm talking about, though.
+
+[12:12] It's like a vicious, evil looking little pepper. Paul Adams from Proper Science has some, but he had some dry, but like have you tried the ghost pepper? As far as I can discern, the ghost pepper has no good taste to it. It's not like a habanero. Well, if you use it like like a little bit of it in a big pot of something, I think that's how it works best.
+
+[12:28] Because I love Sri Lankan food, and apparently they use ghost peppers. Yeah, but why not just use more of a pepper with more flavor? By the way, two dudes sitting at the table outside of the studio here pounding shots. Just really shots away, dude. Like uh, well, it's it's you know, it's 5 p.m.
+
+[12:42] somewhere. These guys are you know banging these things back like they're in Europe. It's like they got transported from Europe. They are in European. It is August.
+
+[12:49] Yeah, and they probably like we're being we're being overrun with Europeans with excess money in their pockets. Please come here and burn your money in New York City and add to our tourism business. We need it. Am I right, Jack? Yes.
+
+[12:59] Yeah. Uh any other things? Because I gotta look that one up. Yeah, uh, I also I sent you a tweet uh last week that I uh have issues with drinking coffee. I love the taste of it, but uh I didn't know what it was.
+
+[13:13] I I isolated by having just caffeine by itself. Yeah, I told you. I told you to have the no dose, right? Yeah, I uh I can handle that, so I don't know. I can usually handle high acid things, but I don't know what it is in coffee that might be getting at me.
+
+[13:29] And you try and you tried decaf coffee and decaf coffee does it to you as well, right? I haven't tried decaf coffee because I never saw the point. Yeah, well, no, but you try it just as a test, the same way that there's not that much of a point in no dose, because I mean that gives me a spinning headache. But like what you here's what you do you try the you try the decaffeinated coffee. So then so if decaffeinated coffee is fine and caffeinated coffee is not, then it you know it could it has to be it's not the caffeine because you've tested that, so it's something else that's washed away in the process, and so then you would have to test to see whether or not supercritical CO2 decaffeinated coffee works, but the water decaffeinated coffee doesn't, you have to do some tests.
+
+[14:05] Now, if decaf uh my suspicion is is that decaf coffee I'll do it to you the same way that uh caffeinated coffee uh will. And you say it's a stomachache, right? And this is regular this is a regular coffee, not espresso, right? Uh I've done both. Right.
+
+[14:19] So when you say stomach ache, do you mean you need to go to the bathroom really quickly? Like it gets your motor running or do you mean just like a stomach ache? No, no. I mean it does both. It but uh going to the bathroom is fine.
+
+[14:30] That that's a desired effect. That's why that's one of the reasons why I drink the coffee in the morning. Yes, but go ahead. But no I get uh an actual like stomach aching afterwards like usually three or four years afterwards. Two or four what?
+
+[14:43] Like three to four hours afterwards. I was like what? Uh the uh I mean that's that's a long memory like I had a cup of coffee three years ago and man I stomach hurts now. That's some serious post hoc ergo propter hoc right there. Um but the uh well so the thing is is there's a lot of stuff in coffee and maybe one of the maybe it's not the actual pH maybe it's one of the um you know maybe one of the particular organic acids in the coffee like like upsets you somehow could you know it could could be something other than just because your stomach's acid enough as it is you know so it I I don't know I'll look into um I'll look into um Jack write this down Jack can you keep a list and then send me like the day before I can look up some of that I'm actually gonna do this.
+
+[15:30] Alright cool. Um I'll try to look up uh because I have like a bunch of books on this subject on coffee about uh things in it that might cause uh stomach aches you know I'll look up uh Andrea Ily's book the um espresso the chemistry of quality and look up the list and see whether there's anything like I can find and peruse the scientific literature. But you've done the first step, which is uh you've tested uh no does and I hate that stuff. Did you did you used to take the I did you ever take that stuff in college, Sas? The no-dos?
+
+[15:56] I you know, I think Is that like five-hour energy shot, same kind of thing? Well it gets around the middle middleman. It's just straight caffeine at a pill. You know what I mean? It's like you know, it doesn't have any of this like fake, like, you know, oh it's gonna blah blah blah.
+
+[16:08] It's just like here's caffeine to freaking like slam your system open. But I used to just pound, pound, pound mountain dues. That's what I would do. Diet do. I would just pound mountain you know, diet mountain dew because I used to pull all nighters like once at least once a week.
+
+[16:21] You know what I mean? At least, because I didn't do any work until it was too late. You know what I mean? Uh anyways. Uh so yeah, so I'm gonna try I'll look into it and next week uh we'll try to get back.
+
+[16:30] Jack's gonna send me this stuff, but try that decaf thing and see whether or not that hooks you up, all right? Yeah, for sure. And then um next week, I'm uh I'm sorry, not next week, next month. I'm gonna try to go to uh WD50 because I just heard the recent bad news that they're closing. So something ends, something new will begin.
+
+[16:48] Although I don't think he's planned it yet exactly what he's gonna do. But I mean, I wouldn't expect uh I wouldn't expect him to be down to one restaurant for too long, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. Uh but I'm definitely gonna try to head there. I don't know how hard it is to get a reservation.
+
+[17:01] I don't know, I haven't looked, but I bet hard. I'm gonna go once again before it closes, but I bet you it ain't so easy. Yeah. You know, I'm gonna try to do that pretty hard, and then I'm definitely gonna check out the newest, coolest great bar Poker and Back. Yeah, sweet.
+
+[17:14] Well, let us know. Let us know before you before you go, and if I'm not around, hopefully I'm around. If not, uh tell us how it was. Sure it will. Thank you very much.
+
+[17:23] Alright, have a good one. Uh Jack, you want to take our quick uh commercial and come back and blast through the rest of cooking issues? Uh that sounds like a plan. Alrighty, brother. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets.
+
+[17:49] I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years. So it's a feta complé for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com.
+
+[18:18] Wow. You like that meditation music? See, I have much more on the give me the other cheese song in contradistinction to uh Steve Jenkins' cheese song. Yeah, I hear you. Hey, Nastasia, this will bother you.
+
+[18:30] You know the the guy's name that made that song on the break? No. Jerome L O L. Like laughing out loud? Correct.
+
+[18:37] Oh, you also got a gift. I did? Yeah. What is Dave got a gift? Oh, it is.
+
+[18:41] Alright, we'll look at it in a minute. Let me let me blast through some questions because we never got any questions. Stas is gonna unpack this, which he didn't already do, so I don't know what it is. Oh, because you have so much problem opening my packages normally. Stas opens letters much like my much like my son does by just like flapping it open to see whether money falls out.
+
+[19:00] That's how she all. Yeah, I learned it from watching you. Okay, uh seriously, let's get some questions. So, uh, I had a question in that says, hello. Uh, I think Dave missed my question.
+
+[19:13] Um, because uh apparently like I got it in a this in a Twitter format. This is from uh uh Rodney Guthman, and uh he's like he started he's like he started like off on a tangent and forgot my question. So we're not gonna do any tangents. So don't talk to me about this the this gift until I finish this. Anyway, uh the question we read last week was is it possible to uh buy cream and then dump water into it to make milk at home so as to save on weight and stuff like this?
+
+[19:36] And answer, no, for two reasons. Here are the two reasons why. And also, did I answer the I won't go off on this tangent, but did I answer the uh beer ice cream question a while ago, or did I also tangent fly off on that? We'll do that real quick too. Okay, so here's why.
+
+[19:50] So uh when you have yourself some uh some whole milk, when I say whole milk, I don't mean whole milk like in a in a store. I mean like you get your milk out of a cow, right? What you have is is you have a a a water phase with uh fat droplets in it, right? When you let it sit, the fat droplets rise to the top, and you have your your quick cream enriched stuff at the top and you have your milk at the bottom. However, the water phase is relatively similar throughout, right?
+
+[20:17] You with me here, Stas? Water phase relatively similar throughout. She's not paying attention, she's looking at the gift, which is good because she has to describe it to me in a minute. Uh so anywho, the here's what happens. When you're taking cream and then you water it down with water, you're watering it down with water and you're not watering it down with uh milk proteins and all of that other uh good stuff, whey proteins, all this other great nonsense, right?
+
+[20:40] Uh and everything else that's in the in the water phase of the milk. Like you could water cream down with skim milk, but then that that that that misses the point because you haven't gotten I mean then you have to still carry the uh the the skim milk home with you, so you're not saving anything. You could water it down with powdered skim milk, and that would save you some weight, but you're gonna have that like off flavor that comes from powdered skim milk. Powdered skin milk, believe it or not, tastes even if you ever tasted it, tastes even worse. I thought you were the one that like, we didn't have a TV.
+
+[21:09] We had to glue together two automobiles. What? No. Anyway, skin milk is uh powdered skin milk. It's good as a as an ingredient in things like uh like English muffins, but not so much to drink.
+
+[21:21] Uh Jack, you ever had the powdered skin milk? No way. It's nasty. Sounds horrible. Yeah, I mean, look, it's something you drink because you can't necessarily afford to have the like real milk around or like you know, you before parmelot came out and you have it in your cupboard for 8,000 years or whatever.
+
+[21:35] Anywho, uh, so you could do something like that, but again, that that stuff's nasty. Here's the second reason why you shouldn't do it. Ninety-nine point nine percent of the cream that you purchase in a supermarket has been ultra high temperature pasteurized. And the reason for this is cream doesn't sell nearly as quickly as milk sells, and cream doesn't get used nearly as quick quickly as milk does, even once it gets home. And so they assume, they mean the dairy weasels, assume that the cream is gonna be on the shelf for a long, long time, and so it has a much longer window shell of shelf life that's required for it.
+
+[22:08] And so they pasteurize it to a much higher temperature for for a higher time so that they can assure that they kill enough of the stuff in there such that it lasts a lot longer, but that makes more of a cook taste. And if you can ever go find yourself some I mean raw, forget it, but if you can ever go find yourself some regular pasteurized even cream as opposed and do a side-by-side of that with ultra-high pasteurized uh cream, like it is a world of freaking difference, like almost as much difference as there is between, let's say, regular milk and parmelot. Although you know a bunch of Europeans like that box milk. You ever hang out with the the Swiss Swiss weasels that you hang out with? But they like it over there, right?
+
+[22:44] Some people actually enjoy that crap. Well, it's with the weasels today. I don't know. Weasels, they're like ferrets, you know. Like uh, you know, you remember Giuliani, we ever talked about that in the show, how Giuliani hated ferrets, and so he made them illegal because he's like, and then he got in arguments with people on his radio show.
+
+[22:57] This guy called in and was like, You're why do you hate the ferret lovers? You ever heard this? Go like yeah, do a search for the the radio episode where Giuliani literally berates a constituent, by the way, a New York City resident, who says, you know, why do you what do you have against ferrets? Because Giuliani, towards the end of his career here, like really kind of went off of his nut in terms of like arresting homeless people, doing all sorts of things. I mean, I was forward a lot of the quality of life stuff here, but like then he's like, you know what?
+
+[23:23] One of the big problems in New York is people keeping ferrets, ferrets. They should be illegal. And so he made it, he like made him push through like ferrets relegal. He's like, Sir, you raise weasels, they're weasels. And he starts screaming at this guy about how his ferrets are weasels.
+
+[23:37] But like, why does Giuliani care whether some other dude has a a weasel or a ferret? I don't know. It's weird. But anyway, cheese weasels, dairy weasels. Uh so that was my answer on that.
+
+[23:46] Now on the beer ice cream, because Jack, I didn't talk about the beer ice cream, right? Sorry, no. Yeah, so somebody uh a couple weeks ago asked about making beer ice cream, and I do have any thoughts on it. Yeah, I like beer and dairy things. Here's the dealy deal.
+
+[23:58] Beer doesn't have a lot of uh alcohol in it anyway, so you're probably gonna be uh okay on the alcohol level, but beer has a lot of water in it. So if you want to get rid of some of the alcohol, and you want to get rid uh because you know, alcohol will soften your your recipe uh, you know, versus what it normally was. So if you want it a little softer, then leave the alcohol and if you don't. But what you need to do is get rid of some of that water. So what you want I would boil uh I would boil the beer off a little bit.
+
+[24:22] I would also make sure that you choose a fairly non hoppy beer. And this is the same thing like when we do um when I do cocktails like the with beer, uh, most often I'm choosing very low hop beers, uh, so that they don't interfere too much with uh the flavor. So I would choose like a low hop, uh low hop like beer. Like, don't go get like dogfish heads, like you know, 120 minute IPA to do this stuff. Uh you know, we do like uh like Abbeys and Saisons and stuff like this, like low like low mellow stuff, and boil off some of the water and then add enough milk powder to it, back to milk powder, add enough milk powder to it, or boil some milk and add it to it such that your level of milk stays the same in your recipe.
+
+[25:05] So typically I would add like liter cream or five hundred mils cream, five hundred mils milk, uh 170 grams of sugar, and uh ten egg yolks and uh salt, right? Plus flavoring. So, you know, if you wanted to take that entire half liter and have it be beer, that's a lot of beer. But you know, I would I would uh boil some of the water out of the beer, uh, take it down and then milk powder it up to the same level as it would be if you used uh half a liter of milk, stir it into your cream, pasteurize, and go. Yeah?
+
+[25:34] Yep. Yeah. Okay. Uh so uh what's the what's the presence now? Uh this is from Dorothy from Health Glen.com.
+
+[25:42] Oh, yeah. I remember she wrote a question in a while back. It's been a while though. Nice. She's a farmer from Minnesota and she gave you some syrups.
+
+[25:49] Oh, nice. What do we got here? We got some a rasuberry tarragon shrub and what else? Uh smoked cherry shrub stas. You'll have to drink this one.
+
+[25:59] Unless it's cooked. Is it cooked? I'm sure it's cooked. Okay, I'll try it. I'll try it and if I fall down.
+
+[26:05] Oh, tonight? All right. Well, we'll uh this isn't poisoned, so you can well, not poison from normal people, but as you know, I'm allergic to cherries. Yeah. But but if it's cooked, it should be all right.
+
+[26:14] Then we got some some some lime some li ginger lime cordial, and what's the jelly? It's uh lime and green tea marmalade. Marmalade. Do you what do you think about people who say it? Marmalade.
+
+[26:23] You like that or no? You ever watch cheese and chong movies? No. No? Jack, you ever watch cheese and chong movies?
+
+[26:29] Yeah, but I don't remember. Eggs and bacon marmalade. You ever see the one where the they they whatever. No, you would think that people would still watch, you know, Cheech, very smart guy. You know, Chong sent to jail for no apparent reason because someone used his name to sell drug paraphylay.
+
+[26:44] He had to go to jail for it. Ridiculous. What's wrong with us in this country? Okay. Uh some more questions.
+
+[26:49] Um I know you guys like to focus on what makes food delicious, but my question is more at the opposite end of the spectrum. It's this why are the pizza crusts from all the major pizza delivery chains so relentlessly disgusting? I know that sounds harsh, but if you know how to make pizza dough and have an even basic oven, uh, it's actually kind of hard to make uh pizza disgusting, and yet in my opinion, the big chains managed to make a pizza that's mostly pretty inedible. Certainly to anyone that knows what pizza should taste like, do the big chains face some special challenges in making our cooking pizza that are not obvious. Thanks for your uh advice on this, Simon from Cambridge.
+
+[27:22] Well, um, I worked at Domino's uh when I was in college, and everyone knows that Domino's pizza is, as you say, relentlessly disgusting. Except for, you know, like and like like no offense to the Papa John's Corporation. I love Papa John's. No, I detest Papa John's. My kids love it.
+
+[27:38] My like my kids think that well, Dax doesn't, but Booker thinks that Papa John's is like the highest quality pizza in the world. In fact, he can he likes it better than any other pizza that you can get. I don't know why. I don't know why. I think it's to make me angry, to make me like very, very angry.
+
+[27:53] But I can tell you why Domino's pizza was bad. Domino's pizza was bad. First of all, the sauce was bad because it contained a lot of sugar. It was l low quality stuff. And uh and the ingredients were crappy and had been sliced up in a factory like 18 years before they were put on the pizza.
+
+[28:07] The beside that, what the cr the crust, the way the crust was made in this, and I'm sure it's the same in all these chain situations, is the dough is not made in-house. It's made somewhere else uh and then retarded and then um put on pallets and left to proof. And so even had they used a good dough um they you know like trying to get it when it was at the optimal level of proof like you you just never you never would and then I'm pretty sure that they weren't using very good uh flour right and and also I just think they're cheap. I just think they're cheap. They don't want to like go through the time.
+
+[28:40] I mean you would think that they could go through the time to do like an actual long leavening process. Like you know when you're when I make pizza dough it's like a 24 hour kind of a of a thing, right? You know, twenty at least 24 hours before start and I let it go a long time and make it and then a lot of the people I know who make good pizza this is the way they do the crust. But uh and you would think that Domino's knows 24 hours in advance like how long it's going to take for them to you know how many pizzas they're gonna make tomorrow roughly and so that they could they could do a long rise dough if they wanted to. I don't know.
+
+[29:10] But the other thing is is their ovens really do suck. Uh Domino's uh can Domino's uses a conveyor oven and their conveyor ovens don't run at an extremely um they don't run at a temperature conducive to making good pizza and uh the way that the heat delivery in them is is provided is not conducive to making a good pizza and so consequently they do not make a good pizza and I think the average thing in most chains uh is is that they like uh kind of a breadier style and that I think that's also difficult to do. I actually misread your question this morning I thought you said why frozen pizza is so crappy. So I was going to get into that but maybe if someone else cares about frozen pizza being crappy we can get into that because I gotta get some more questions before we get kicked off of the air. Am I right stuff?
+
+[29:50] Yep. By the way, did uh we hear anything from uh I didn't see anything. Okay. So here we go. We got a question, or not a question so much as a as a statement based on last week.
+
+[29:59] I asked for vegetarian uses for the um mergen circulators. So Eddie Shepherd, you know, who wrote the vegetarian cookbook and his uh his uh a vegetarian cookbook. Uh it's uh www.vegiechef.co.uk is uh his website. So he wrote in blah ba-buh ba-bum bum bum. Uh Eddie Shepard writing from the UK.
+
+[30:25] Enjoy the show. Uh and heard uh Martin from Sweden's question at the end of last week's episode regarding Sous-Vide low temperature vegetarian cooking. Um I know you prompted the excellent Michael Natkin to write in, which will be great. I'm a big fan of his blog and chef steps, of course. As another vegetarian chef myself working a lot with Sous-Vide, I thought I might be able to add some helpful suggestions as well.
+
+[30:43] Firstly, uh the application of poach eggs and ice cream, etc. are of course well documented, fantastic vegetarian uses of sous vide. And for making lemon lime curd or any other flavor curd you fancy, it's also very handy. Fancy sounds like a very English word, right? Fancy, but cat fancy, even though that's not English.
+
+[30:57] Do you like that magazine? Cat fancy? Yeah, I know you would. Uh and Dave uh already went through a lot of the benefits of cooking a range of fruits and vegetables sous-vide for uh flavor, precision, texture, as well as the benefits of making dashi in the water of ass. What do you think about vegetables instead of vegetables?
+
+[31:12] Why would you say vegetables? I don't know. Alice liked the word vegetable. What do you buy you, Jack? Neh.
+
+[31:19] Uh then I also use CV for a number of other applications covered below. Low temp halloumi. We talked about Halloumi on the show before, right? Halloumi, the cheese from Cyprus that can be grilled. Halloumi good cheese.
+
+[31:30] They actually literally, that was their advertisement. They're like, it's Halloomigood cheese. I'm like, really? That's what you got. That's what you got.
+
+[31:36] So Halloumi Halloumi Cheese, similar to queso parfrier, similar to a bunch of things. It's a it's a it's a cheese that's made uh without acidifying the curd. So it's a directly rent uh rennet coagulated, and apparently having the relatively neutral pH of a non-acid, uh non-acidified cheese uh prevents uh it from melting uh substantially. I know it does because I've used it, and then also they cook they they make like a ricotta style thing out of the way when they're done by acidifying it, and then they cook the uh the cheese, curds, pressed cheese curds in the way, which solidifies them even more, and then you get your halloumi cheese or your frying cheese, which you can slice and then you can grill, and it doesn't melt, but then and it gets it's squeaky, but then when it cools off, it's nasty squeaky. Anyways, uh I like halloumi, I like all I like queso parfrier, I like all that stuff.
+
+[32:23] Anyway, so uh Eddie Shepard writes in and says, Halloumi cooked at 64 Celsius for for 1.5 hours with butter, fresh mint and lemon zest is delicious and benefits from infused flavors well as having a lovely soft texture. I haven't been able to achieve by any other cooking method. It can also be pre-seared to get the lovely browned flavors. Um he also wrote uh for transglutaminase use for uh the vegetables. I use sous vide for some vegetarian applications of transglutaminase, including a pressed mushroom technique, uh, which uh Michael and Chef Step took inspiration from as well for their own technique for these are like mushrooms and or like kind of mushroom blocks instead of meat.
+
+[32:58] And so I'll I'll just tell you what what he what they do. They uh he Eddie slices and dehydrates uh the vegetable, which the mushrooms, which is porous, and then uh makes a slurry of soy protein isolate uh and um flavor and then mixes in transglutaminase and presses it flat and then a block and then and then cooks it off later. Let's it sit for four hours and puts it off later. Now the interesting thing is is that he uses an extraordinarily high percentage of transglutaminase in this, five percent. So it's an typical typical meat style thing, it's like one percent.
+
+[33:28] Uh and this is like five. So it must need a lot to bond it together to uh to you know his satisfaction. Chef Steps uses uh instead of soy protein, uses sodium caseinate, and then uh uses three three and a quarter percent transcontaminase or thereabouts in their prep. They also used ground mushrooms instead of mushroom slices and make more of a burger. Uh but those look good.
+
+[33:47] They look good. Um and Eddie also says he uses uh Sou vide making his uh Halloumi uh at home because uh that's how you're not supposed to boil the way that you put it in, you're supposed to keep it like uh he keeps it at 90 C, which is about right. I think it's 195 Fahrenheit is how much they cook it. So he says it takes a lot less diligence than the normal thing, it doesn't get scorching. Uh he also uses it for uh putting white chocolate in a uh in a vacuum bag and cooking it at uh 90 C for like uh 24 hours and it gets like a dulce lay shape brown.
+
+[34:16] You know, you've ever seen those things like the like the white chocolate that I actually make taste good by cooking it for a long time. No, no, I haven't seen it, plus I don't want to talk about it. Um anyway. Um, and also he says that uh he ordered a TS uh 8000 Burnsmatic TS8000, which is the one we use on the Searzol in the UK through the eBay, costing $60 total, which is more or less what he would cost to get a Rottenburger. But the question is, and I'd love to hear back from you, Eddie, is do the propane tanks in the UK fit, or do you have to make a special adapter?
+
+[34:42] Uh anyway, I hope that's some some help. And if you do across to the ULK when your book launches, try to get up north as well. There's lots of great food and cocktails happening in the Manchester. And if you've not visited before, it's a great city. I have not.
+
+[34:52] Have you, Stas? No. Uh okay. And so uh they're gonna kick they're gonna kick us off. So I have like oh no, I have like five like five four minutes, right?
+
+[35:00] Four minutes. I have like four minutes. And I just want to give a shout out to Co. Miles for supporting the network. Oh, I love Co.
+
+[35:05] Miles. Yeah, he's the man. Co. Miles is a good man. Thank you for supporting Co Miles.
+
+[35:09] He supported us with the uh Mars Cuisine book, which I really enjoy. He's uh great guy. And and some interesting stories, which I will not share. But uh, well, he he shared with me when he took the Sous V class, I think it was Sue Vide, uh, some like some funky stories. Anyways, um okay, so we're ripping through.
+
+[35:25] Uh this is Sam from Guysville. Where's Guysville? Anyway. Uh for a chamber vacuum sealer, is getting water oil on the inside of a vacuum bag where the ceiling element presses affect its sealing ability, thanks, Sam from Guysville. Yes and no.
+
+[35:37] A small amount of liquid is not going to hurt too much because the temperature is such that it'll boil it off and then seal fine. However, large amounts of liquid can cause problems. Also, uh, if your liquid has any crap in it, like spices or whatnot, this can inhibit the seal because it's physically a particle and it prevents the bags from touching it together. So I've had many things go wrong. Where am I from?
+
+[35:57] Wrong. I've had many things go wrong when you have stuff like pepper or stuff get in spices. Uh I've also had a problem with lots and lots of uh liquid there because I I don't know why. I guess when as it's boiling out, it creates a little channels and stuff, but a small amount of liquid's not going to be too much of a problem, so don't worry about it. Um and then finally, although I think I I know I missed one.
+
+[36:16] I missed one. I'm uh I'll tell you who I missed. I'll tell you who I missed because I'll get you next week. Uh and we'll get to the Twitter questions next week. Next week we're starting a section.
+
+[36:23] What's it called, uh, Jack? What? The section of things you haven't answered? No, the set well, we have that, but we're gonna have Nastas and I'm gonna be on time next week. Uh uh, yeah, next week because I'm on I'm not around the week after that.
+
+[36:33] No, is it Nastasha reading the tweets? What did you say I was gonna go? Oh, yeah, we gotta re I I gotta come up with a name for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We gotta we gotta do uh I'm not gonna be able to answer uh Brandon Johnson's questions on carbonation.
+
+[36:44] Uh but I'll get that next time. And we have another question on one on um well, I'll do the bag and box because I can do that in two minutes. So there's also a carbonation quite uh uh question why it burns from Bush Week Brooklyn writes in about bagging box syrup. Hey Dave, uh Jack and Nastasia, I was wondering if you've had experiment uh experimented with making your own bag and box soda concentrates for use in a commercial beverage system. I'm really interested in experimenting with a frozen carbonated beverage machine for cocktails, and since these machines are under pressure, i.e.
+
+[37:10] they don't have a hopper you can pour a mix into. I think the only way to get my ingredients inside would be through the concentrate line. I've never used a bag and box system before. Do the syrup pumps just pull the liquid out, or is there some sort of magic going on with the bags? I could theoretically just cut off the BIB container and stick it into a container of my drink ingredients.
+
+[37:25] What sort of ingredient ratios we'd be looking for to do a carbed alcoholic slushy concentrate. Okay, it's a good question. Yeah, bag and box, they just have a uh usually a pump. The pumps that are manufactured typically by SureFlo here, they're run off of carbon dioxide, and they pull the uh liquid from the bag. You need to make sure you get rid of the air in the bag because that can mess with the bricks, and then they push it through an orifice that's set for a certain pressure, and that's how they meter out the uh syrup into a typical Wunderbar uh bar gun.
+
+[37:50] Um and then you adjust with a little screw exactly what the bricks is. So I'm assuming that there's a similar sort of mechanism uh going on in one of these machines, although I've never used it. Now, here's the here's the story. Here's what you need to look at. When you're looking to make a carbon uh when you're looking to make an alcoholic slushie, right?
+
+[38:04] The first thing you need to shoot for is the right alcohol level. The right alcohol level is between about 14 and 14.4% alcohol by volume. Don't go any higher than that, or you're not going to get it very slushy. And if you go too much lower than that, it's gonna get pretty hard in the machine, right? You're gonna look for roughly eight bricks, so around eight percent sugar.
+
+[38:24] So do your calculations uh based on that. Now, to go any other way, you're gonna have to calculate eight bricks means eight percent sugar by weight. So in a you know, if you weigh uh a liter uh or weigh a kilogram of uh product, then you know, roughly eight uh eighty grams of it should be sugar. Anyway, um here's what I'll give you here here's a uh typical typical soda like is a roughly a five to one ratio, so five parts water, one part syrup, which is a total of six parts. Okay.
+
+[38:54] So six parts, let's say we're gonna do six ounces out of thirty mil ounce, because I use thirty millimetric ounces, right? That's 180 milliliters. I'm just doing this calculation for you. You're gonna have to go back and do your own. So one ounce of that syrup, right, is about 30 milliliters.
+
+[39:07] And at a if you're gonna use a simple syrup like a bar syrup, which is about 50 bricks, that's 1.23 grams per milliliter, which is the density of a 50 bricks uh syrup. One ounce of that's gonna weigh 36.9 grams. Uh, and then so remember it's 50 bricks, so half of that weight, half of that 36.9 grams is gonna be sugar. That's 18.5 uh 45 grams. So soda made with a fifty with a 50 bricks syrup, which is one to one simple syrup, will have a bricks of uh and a parts, five parts soda to one part, uh one part syrup, will have a bricks of 10.25 or slightly less sweet than the Coca-Cola, and use those rough things to make your own bricks calculations, and we'll get back next week with cooking issues.
+
+[39:50] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit.
+
+[40:14] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere.
+
+[0:27] Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first step father. Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone.
+
+[0:41] Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com.
+
+[1:00] Cooking issues starts now. Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five-generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit WhiteoakPastures.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:20] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Rebirth Pizzeria on the Air Journey Network in Bushwick. Every 12, 30, 12, what are we? What are we, 12, 10.
+
+[1:45] I know. No. We have to say we start at 12 10. I know. Let's make it 12.
+
+[1:49] Alright. We're king we're going track. You know, listen, peoples. It is true that I leave my house late, but it's because I'm hard at work on the questions that you guys have submitted. But for some reason I always seem to think that I can make it a little bit faster than I can.
+
+[2:02] Today, I didn't stop, but my bike had the same problem. I took my tire off, my uh and my tube, no leaks. It's the Schrader valve. That's right, bike people. I'm an American, I use Schrader valves and not these Euro pretentious presta sung guns that you guys you bike enthusiasts favor.
+
+[2:20] So I was like, I don't know, I mean I don't even know. You're a bike rider. Mm-hmm. But you use uh I don't bike the way you do. What is that supposed to mean?
+
+[2:27] Like you go like car speed, like anger, you know. I well, that's the reason I like biking. I like biking because you can if you were to go all out on the street, like walking or running, with like an angry look on your face, like all your stuff on your back in your work clothes, people would they would think that you were uh they would call the cops, they would think you're crazy. If you're in your work clothes and you're going a billion miles an hour on a bicycle with all your stuff, people might think that you're a weirdo, but they're not gonna call the cops and be like crazy bikers, but that's about it. I I can deal with that.
+
+[3:07] Can't do it in your car either. No, like bike is the only place that you can really get your kind of New York. There's too many damn people here rage out. Yeah. You know, my wife, my wife was like, I was complaining to my wife.
+
+[3:19] She's like, Dave, you're you know, you're becoming a crotchy old jerk in your in your old age. Uh, because you know how they have the bike weekends in in Manhattan where they like turn streets into bike. Yeah, they turn like Lafayette and like stretches of like real streets into bike bike and like what was that thing? Rollerblading? It's for summer streets, isn't it?
+
+[3:41] Yeah, yeah. It's the worst time to bike, it is the absolute worst time to bike. It's like families riding like four abreast at like two miles an hour. I'm like, brothers, sisters, I've got fantastically expensive tomatoes in my bag. I build a special support structure for my bag when I'm gonna carry tomatoes, and then I line said support because you don't want the bag crushing in on it, right?
+
+[4:04] So I basically turn it into a hard box on my back that I then line with with uh with tablecloths that are fluffed up. Then I lay the tomatoes carefully in, and then I stand on my bike the entire way home to provide the extra shock absorbing power of my legs. And and unlike my normal riding posture, which is kind of forward leaning angry, I'm I'm riding fully erect, like uh like some sort of a Dutch person. And uh it and I'm hindered by these people like all of a sudden like making me like slam on the brakes. Like I'm just trying to get my tomatoes home.
+
+[4:40] I'm not having fun. This is not fun. I'm not out here, like you know what? It's like no one drives anymore. Just hey, I'm gonna take a leisurely drive out in the mountains.
+
+[4:49] At least not the here, you know what I mean? You're riding fully erect. You know, you know, listen, gooey duck face. Like uh, you know, you love the innuendo on the show, but I mean I'm just trying to uh you know, you're making us all picture this. I'm just trying to get straight.
+
+[5:02] Whatever. Uh calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497-2128. Uh so we can hear your cooking or other questions here live on the Cooking Issues Radio program. We're joined as usual with Jack in the engineering booth.
+
+[5:16] You've already heard from Nastasha Hammer Lopez. But we've already got, we've also got uh Eliza, Eliza, right? Eliza from by the way, Double duty lady, does Mofad work as well. Yeah. Has uh you did the did you you did one or two of the puffing guns, right?
+
+[5:29] And you also did the uh round tables. You only did the round tables, you never went you never came to the. We did two or three three. We did three, right? We did three.
+
+[5:41] I did two. Did two? Yeah. Which ones? The first and the second.
+
+[5:45] So that would be GMOs. GMOs and soda. Oh, soda. Soda's a good one. Soda.
+
+[5:49] You know, I really I whatever the last one was, I'm trying to remember what it was. It was good. Oh, big business. It was big business and food. Fit business, food.
+
+[5:57] Big business. Big business. Spin and cheese. Alright, so we got uh you know, that'd be that'd be better. Like that's how you like it, like as much as I listen to like all the old school rap stuff, and how much I love it.
+
+[6:09] Like, the older I get, I've had this discussion on the air, man. I won't go too deep into it, but p pimping, being a pimp is disgusting. It's like freaking vile. It's like the worst thing you can do is to be a pimp, and yet, you know, how many years have you walk around and being like big pimping spin and cheese? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[6:27] It's like it's ridiculous. Like women will walk around using the word pimp like it's okay. What do you think about this, Jack? It's not okay. Pimp pimping not okay.
+
+[6:35] Pimping not okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pimping ain't easy, like being hoarded out, not easy. Yeah, really. Where'd you get to that?
+
+[6:43] What? Oh, because you said big business, and then I said big big business spin and cheese, like on B L A D's up in NYC. Which, you know, I don't I don't think that's his finest song, by the way. No. No.
+
+[6:56] No. 99 Problems. Also questionable, but like amazing song. Nine nine problems, amazing song. Anyways.
+
+[7:04] Stas is more up on the Beyonce breakup, the potential Beyonce breakup. You watch that stuff constantly, Stas? The Beyonce breakup? Or she your mom hasn't called you about that yet? No.
+
+[7:13] No. Guys. Alright, food, food, food. We're better than this. I know.
+
+[7:17] Better than better than Beyonce? I highly doubt it. Yes. What about early Beyonce? What about Destiny's Child Beyoncé?
+
+[7:24] I don't know about that. We have nine questions. Alright, geez. Nine or nine questions. And be honest.
+
+[7:29] Beyonce ain't one. Oh, boom. Boom. Dear Dave Anastasia, this is from Mark, spelled CK. I like the CK.
+
+[7:39] It's not like Mark with a C, not Mark with a K. You got both. You can afford both of those letters at the end of your name, Mark. Like Merc Index, right? Isn't that how they spell it?
+
+[7:47] Merc? Anyways. When I make sauces slash soups in a blender and there are onions in there, I get a weird metallic slash, I'm using the slash, whatever. Metallic slash bitter taste. It's like the taste you get when you chop onions in a food processor.
+
+[8:01] I forgot about it, but then I tasted the same thing in a restaurant. On the internets, I found that tomato seeds might be the problem. Can you tell me why that why that happens? And is there anything uh one can do about it? Kind regards, Mark.
+
+[8:13] Well, uh, in typical mental tangent form, this is just to show you people. I want you guys to know this. That the tangents don't just happen when I'm here talking. The tangents happen when I'm literally reading your question because uh reading it aloud, I just realized I uh um didn't see the tomato seed thing. I only saw the first portion of your question.
+
+[8:37] Uh, and so that's all I can respond to because it is something that I know that uh chopping onions with, for instance, carbon steel blades, and we've talked about this in our show, I think it was a couple years ago. That when you when you chop onions with uh carbon steel knives, you get this kind of horrendous metallic taste. And the reason is well known fact, well known, that um it's a well-known fact that uh alliums, onion uh being an allium, uh, have lots of things that react with uh iron and other metallic uh they form complexes with iron and other metals. Uh which is why, and I think we talked about this. Remember, they sell those deodorizers, some cigons that those stainless steel hand deodorizer things.
+
+[9:20] I don't think they sell them anymore because I don't think they really work because those are made of stainless steel. Stainless steel, not nearly uh as effective at complexing with uh alum compounds as good old fashioned carbon steel because it's been passivated with a you know an anti-corrosion layer on the front. But this is why I was saying that like if you're trying to get onion smell off of your hands, things like steel wool, things that rust might be a good a good thing to try. Um I think that's what I said. It's been it's been a couple of years since we did.
+
+[9:45] Anyways, uh so my assumption is that you're getting some sort of a uh thing of a crap with the um with the carbon steel. Uh and by the way, you know, there are lots of things, and I don't know whether this is related to the flavor, but because uh alliums, onions, garlic are extremely complex. Uh and so you know, one of the things that provides that kind of off-color is a um a series of uh of pigments called uh anthoxanthins, not anthocyanins, anthozanthins. And they're also the things that make uh potatoes turn dark when you cut them. You know when you cut a potato and uh and you don't soak it in water because you're low quality person and you let it sit out there and and it and it turns like pink and and then and then brown, and then that brown color doesn't go away when you cook it.
+
+[10:29] So when anyone ever looks at your potato, they can be, oh, this person is a jerk. They don't care about the food they're serving me. They don't care about quality, and they can't observe day-to-day things, and they don't learn from existence. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.
+
+[10:41] I mean, it's okay if if I saw that at someone's house and be like, wow, so you've never cooked a potato before. You know what I mean? Like because like it's obvious. Jack, you've sliced a potato, am I right? I mean, yeah.
+
+[10:50] Not well, but well, I mean, look, there's it's one thing to have bad knife skills. This is entirely acceptable. It's another thing to not notice that potatoes turn into crap when you let them sit out. When they're cut. Whatever.
+
+[11:05] That's obvious. Yeah. Duh. Uh so anywho's. So uh tomato seeds, the only thing I can think of off hand, and this is probably wrong because I think offhand, maybe you can search.
+
+[11:14] You want to search some tomato seeds? Um, is that the uh increased acidity is uh causing more reaction with the uh with the blades because uh my feeling is is that a lot of those blades are made out of like 304, which is you know slightly rustable. Uh I think uh they're not really made of really high quality. You'd think they'd be made of some sort of like wizard steel, but they're not. I think they're mainly made out of 316 and 304.
+
+[11:39] But I don't know. We'll look into it, Mark. Uh anyway. Now, we got a follow-up question. EMM wrote in uh a while back on making sugar-free ice cream, and what I said was, I don't why do you want it to be sugar free?
+
+[11:50] Do you want it to taste sugar free? Or do you merely want it to be sugar free? And for what reason do you want it to be sugar free? Well, okay. So uh he or she wrote back because I can't remember, and EMM is completely genderless, right?
+
+[12:02] Mm-hmm. Unless it's Emma. It's not Emma. EMM. All capitals.
+
+[12:08] Thanks for addressing my question on the air. The reason I asked is once or twice a week, I get requests for sugar free desserts, mostly from diabetics. Uh, Stas, can you do a Wilfred Brimley imitation? No. No?
+
+[12:19] I don't know the name. Wilfred Brimley, anyone, Jack? Wilfred Brimley? Nope. You know what I'm talking about, though.
+
+[12:23] No, I don't. I'm Wilfred Brindley, and I got diabetes. He's the guy who he's like the spokesperson. Yeah, no, I know the commercial. Yeah, he's he's like the spokesperson for like taking care of your diabetes, but he doesn't pronounce it diabetes.
+
+[12:34] He pronounced it diabetes. Yeah, with the mustache. Yeah, but the giant mustache. Okay. I'm Wilfred Brimley and I've got diabetes.
+
+[12:41] And so, like, we used to walk around, like, we still do at Booker and Dax every once in a while and just go, Bittis, bitus. Because like uh I forget who it was. It wasn't Nick. It was someone I know. Oh, Leo Robichek from Nomad.
+
+[12:54] We were hanging around at uh at uh Nomad and EMP and you know, fantastic barman. We like he got served a drink once that had way too much sugar at Tales of the Cocktail. He just tastes like and goes, diabetes. And that's all he said. That is diabetes.
+
+[13:10] That's what he said. Anywho. Uh I'm not sure about uh uh okay, wait. Uh I'm I know having a pan of sugar-free gelato uh would not sell much out of the display case, but we offer catering gallon sizes. I'd like to see someone tuck into a gallon-sized container of gelato.
+
+[13:25] That's rough, man. Think about that. A gallon. A gallon. That would be that's not that's not four pints.
+
+[13:33] That's four freaking quarts. That's eight pint containers of ice cream, folks. That is a boat ton of ice cream. Let me tell you something, people with diabetes ordering this catering size gallon of ice cream. You do not have the ability as an individual human being to consume a gallon of ice cream before it goes bad.
+
+[13:49] If you do, you got issues. What if it's for a party? That's fine. I'm just saying, that's a lot of ice cream. You people like down a half gallon, probably.
+
+[13:58] What? Before it goes bad? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. I think the maximum quantity of ice cream you should buy is probably a half gallon for home use in a normal situation because you want to store ice cream in your freezer as little as possible.
+
+[14:11] Most home freezers, like they open and close a lot and they go through defrost cycles and all these kinds of things. So that they're not good for the long-term storage of ice cream. You know, plus people put things that aren't frozen in them, which drops the temperature of the freezer, and then you get recrystallization problems. And so I mean you can always get incredibly highly stabilized ice cream. Like, did you guys notice recently that Briar's ice cream, past like five years has started putting stabilizers in their ice cream because everyone realized that Briars was good if you live right near Philadelphia and you could get the Briars like right when it was made, and then like a week later it sucked, and that once you opened it in your fridge, it turned into like Briar's ice crystals instead of Briar's ice cream.
+
+[14:45] And so back when I was a kid, they used to have advertisements like little kids with lisps. I don't know why people think that like kids with lisps are like the you know the sinequan non of purity in American Americana, but they were like, this kid's reading off like nothing wrong with lisp. I'm just saying, like, why it has to be. It always has to be a kid with a lisp, you know what I mean? And uh, and so he's reading off the ingredients, and he can pronounce them, and then he's reading off the ingredients in another ice cream, and he's like, Carrie, I don't remember exactly, but it's like reading off like carrageen and aguarol scrap, and like Briars doesn't have any of this stuff.
+
+[15:13] And secretly they added all that crap to it because you know what makes the ice cream better. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about. Okay, uh I'm not sure uh about diabetics and the sugars naturally found in fruit. I did a quick search and read on the American uh Diabetes Association website that yes, diabetics should eat fruit, but did not specify how much or what kinds are safe, slash not safe. Uh I guess I would like to accommodate these requests one day with an artificially sweetened vanilla flavor, not using our Madagascar vanilla extract as sugar as an ingredient or maybe chocolate.
+
+[15:39] Some information. We use a Carpajani LB202. I've never used that one. I've used a smaller, the LB100 batch freezer, uh pre-gel base and stabilizers, whole milk, sugar and corn syrup, plus as many local fruits as we can get our hands on throughout the seasons. Thanks again, cheers, EMM.
+
+[15:54] Okay, look it. First of all, uh I think a lot depends on a lot depends on who you're dealing with, right? So, like uh an actual like person who is like diabetic who knows uh about you know what's going on, is not gonna if you eat fruit P.S. you're eating sugar, duh, right? And fruits have all of the same sugars in them that we normally associate with sugary things.
+
+[16:20] So they have fructose, they have glucose, and they also have sucrose in them, right? It's just a question of how much. So, like someone who has uh like the the trick with uh with uh diabetes, and I don't really know that much because uh, you know, I don't have anyone in my family that's diabetic and I'm not diabetic, but uh as far as I can tell, the trick isn't eliminating all sugar, the trick is managing the amount of sugar you get so that you don't uh have a spike in your blood sugar level, which is why uh people focus on the glycemic index of certain foods, including carbohydrates, what can spike your blood sugar uh levels of glucose uh quickly, or what causes it to spike, because that's what's gonna cause problems uh for diabetics. That said, uh so for instance, you could uh up the fructose, which is sweeter than sucrose, right? Uh and also have not only is it sweeter than glucose, uh uh sucrose rather, but it also has a lower glycemic index.
+
+[17:17] So you can radically lower the glycemic index of something like an ice cream by sweetening it primarily with fructose as opposed to sucrose. Um and we'll go into that in a second, but the point is that you can do that. Now, the the flip side of that is is that you can't, no one writes, like no one writes on on a uh uh on a label, right? This food has a glycemic index of 23. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:41] Like no one writes that on it. Right? Instead, they just write sugar free or whatever. And so, and then like someone who actually cares about this stuff has to base their their information on whether something is sugar free. So you could have an ice cream that would be fine for someone uh who has diabetes to have a moderate amount of, not a gallon, but uh, you know, a moderate amount of that is uh flavored uh with fructose, but then you couldn't write sugar-free on it.
+
+[18:04] You could write sucrose-free, right? That's kind of weaselly, right? So then what people do uh other the when they don't do that is they'll add a texturizing agent, and then they'll add some sort of fake sugar like Splenda. You know, that's like also you said you can't use the real vanilla because it's got sugar in it, even though you're using probably a fairly small amount of that vanilla, right? And and it contains, it's not, I would guess it's not the main uh amount of sugar that's in your recipe is coming from the vanilla.
+
+[18:33] I bet you don't have to alter the sugar balance of your recipe that much based on the vanilla you're using. I could be wrong, because I don't know that the the vanilla that you're using. My point is that you run into a situation a lot where in order to do the right thing by a customer, you have to do the wrong thing by a customer. In order to try and help the customer by giving something that they can enjoy, you have to actually ruin it by turning it into crap by using ingredients that are bad, even though there could be some sort of middle-based thing that they could, you know, have instead. So uh that said, what I recommend that you do, because remember, you're p you're you're playing with a couple of variables here.
+
+[19:05] You're playing with the taste, which is the the the sugar, right? Uh with sweetness rather. You're dealing with the glycemic index, which is how much the product is going to spike blood sugar levels. And then you're and by the way, you can add things that are not sugars, for instance, sugar alcohols and other things like this that do have an effect on people's glyc could possibly have an effect on people's glycemic index, although I don't think much actually, I don't think sugar alcohols have that much of an effect on a glycemic index. I'm not sure.
+
+[19:30] They can make give you the runs. Whatever, anyways. And you're also uh working with the texture because uh sugars uh lower the freezing point depression of uh ice cream base, and that's how they do things like that. That's that's one of the reasons why ice cream has the right textures. If you increase your sugar, uh then you decrease uh you increase the softness of an ice cream at a particular dipping temperature.
+
+[19:52] And if you uh decrease the sugar, you make it uh consequently harder. So the the ultimate website to go to on this is www.dairy science.info, which is uh the University of Guelph's run by uh uh Professor Douglas Goff, his uh his website on dairy science. Specifically, I would look at two articles. One is called The Science of Gold in quotes, Goldilocks ice cream, and that's I guess you know, just right. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:19] And they have they go into how to calculate freezing point depression, right? So then you're gonna need to go and uh look on any there's a number of websites that'll give you uh glycemic indexes to things, but you want to shoot for a specific freezing point depression, uh, and then shoot for a specific glycemic index. And uh things you can use other than sugar to depress. So if you're using Splenda and you're using uh maybe one of the sugar alcohols that uh and you can read up its uh its specific freezing point depression ratio compared with sugar, right? So if you know that you want a sweetness relative to let's say uh 14 to 15 percent by weight in a batch of sugar, that's a sweetness level you're shooting for.
+
+[20:56] You're looking for a sweetness index similar to that, right? And then you're looking for uh and then you rate that also as a freezing point of one sugar, right? Uh then you're looking to find other ingredients that add up to that. And they the instructions and equations are all on uh University of Guelph's website. So you can add alcohol, which lowers the freezing point, uh, in addition to some sugar alcohols, and then an artificial sweetener like Splenda, should you have to do that, although I highly recommend fructose.
+
+[21:20] Problem with fructose, by the way, people. Aside from the fact that it is an actual sugar and that you would have to write it on the label as such, and that some people who are uh you know, in uh advocacy for diet diabetics don't uh advocate fructose because they believe it has other problems, even though they all recognize that it has a much lower glycemic index and therefore it's better from that standpoint. And there's a bunch of studies and the research isn't exactly clear yet. Uh uh, what I don't even know what I was saying. So uh fructose, uh alcohol, a little bit of salt, so alcohol can be used to balance out the um whatever freezing point depression you don't get when you're adding uh fructose, you can get with uh alcohol.
+
+[21:55] Anywho, uh that's my eighteen cents on that. Good Goldilocks, by the way. Yeah? Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, nice.
+
+[22:00] Well, I don't know. Oh, color, yes, colour, you're on the air. Hello there, dude. Howdy. Hey, uh uh Sean from Palo Elto.
+
+[22:09] Oh, how you doing? Uh I'm doing good. Um I just had a question about I'm trying to make some Zabillon in uh ISI, right? Um and uh doesn't really work. And I was wondering if you had any pointers.
+
+[22:22] Uh maybe I'm doing something wrong. So let me see whether I know what's happening. It looks foamy and then it breaks after like three minutes and turns into like a very liquidy soup in the bottom of your bowl. Yeah, correct. Yeah.
+
+[22:35] Uh you haven't heated it enough. So one of the things with uh Zabayon is that and I've never made it in the in the EC. I always do it on a stovetop like old school, you know, like sugar, the egg yolks, white wine, whip it, you know, cook it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so you're sitting there and you're whipping it with a whisk, right?
+
+[22:50] And you think it's fluffy, and you're incredibly worried that you're gonna curdle it and you're gonna make it taste bad because you're gonna you're gonna overheat the egg yolks. And so you you you get uh you what happens is it starts building texture based on the aeration that you're giving it with the whisk, not based on the fact that you've cooked the egg yolk enough, and then as soon as it cools down, it loses its structure and turns back into a liquid again, you've lost the texture. The problem is you haven't heated it enough. So you you can uh you can heat it cremong glazed style in a zippy with a circulator. I'm assuming since you live in Palo Alto, you have ten immersion circulators.
+
+[23:23] Are you one of the I do have I do have one? Yeah, all right. That's it. So, you know, like unless what's the what's the there's East Palo Alto and Palo Alto, right, Stas? Uh yeah, I don't remember.
+
+[23:33] You don't remember? Isn't East Palo She went to Stanford, that's right. Yeah, she went to Stanford, but she I guess never left Kansas. I have no connection with that place anymore. That place anymore.
+
+[23:43] Wow. But people who went to Stanford generally just forget about East Palo Alto anyway. So anyways. But so my my impression of people who live in in the in the non-eastern section of Palo Alto is that they all have kind of uh immersion circulators. But anyways, the um uh you know, yeah, well, I mean, you know, whatever, it's a stereotyping people based on the tech industry, I guess.
+
+[24:05] But uh so you could do the do you do it in immersion circulator? And what temperature do you use? So I I did it at 65. Oh, yeah, way too late. Way too low.
+
+[24:15] That's too low. Way too low because uh when you add sugar to an egg yolk or liquids like uh wine or acids to an egg yolk or salt to an egg yolk, you uh radically increase the temperature at which uh it starts thickening. So uh I don't have a particular temperature for Zabayon, but uh just for an FYI, creme anglaise. Now, admittedly, there's uh a lot of liquid in a creme anglaise, more so than in probably in a Zabayon. So, like my my and I've given it before, but my specific creme anglaise recipe, just as in FYI, is 500 milk, 500 cream, 10 extra large egg yolks, 170 gram sugar plus flavoring like vanilla and salt.
+
+[24:55] So that cooks at 82 Celsius for like for like 15 minutes. So though, and and by the way, once you reach a temperature at which egg yolks are going to start to thicken, they they tend to continue to thicken in custardy and on gla in anglazy and and Zabayon style basis. They tend to continue to thicken over time, but beyond they won't break as long as they don't go higher than whatever the full setting temperature of the protein is at that dilution at that uh and that ion level. But uh they will take on egg y notes as they cook longer. So like a creme anglaise that is cooked for 10 to 15 minutes at 82 is great.
+
+[25:33] Uh one that's cooked for 20 starts having a little bit of an egggy aroma, especially when it's warm. Uh so I would experiment with much higher temperatures, something like somewhere like I again, I don't know how much wine you're adding, but you could try 82 for 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes. Remember, it's in a bag, make sure it's agitated so that it stirs itself and then um see whether that is enough, or if it's too much, if it starts tasting curdled and you start getting little like curds in it, then you drop the temperature. Let me tell you one thing. This is a secret I learned from many years ago from uh Juan and uh Juan uh Rocus' book, uh Sous vide, the you know the original one, the one from Spanish that was translated into English in like like 2001 or whatever it is.
+
+[26:14] Uh when you pull the uh anglaise mix from the circulator, it will look lumpy. Throw it onto a counter and smack it around with your hands so that it breaks it up and it will be smooth as silk, no problems. The other thing is is that you can as long if you have a vacuum machine, this is actually uh really good. If you don't have a vacuum machine, do it lightly. You can blend it such that you don't have to worry about the halaza as well.
+
+[26:39] Because otherwise you would normally have to strain uh the Zavillon to get rid of any trace of uh halaza before you served it. But if you if you quickly pulse it in a vita prep, you can uh or pulse it in the vitaprep just like I do with an on glazed base. As long as you don't over whip it, you can break up the halaza and you don't need to uh strain it to get rid of any other particles. And I don't know how Palo Alto you are, but that means you also have a vita prep to go into the circulator. Not that well, well someday we'll all be that Palo Alto.
+
+[27:08] But uh uh but anyway, so but like uh a light blending can help uh get rid of that. The only issue is if you don't have a vacuum machine, um a lot of excess air in the bag can lead to I think off flavors. So for instance, I I you know most things I say are as good in a ziploc as they are in a vacuum bag. Creme on glaze is not one of them. It's still good in a Ziploc.
+
+[27:29] And if I had never had it in a vacuum, it's like side by side tasted like an on glaze done in a in a ziploc versus on glaze done in a vacuum bag, I'd probably say that they're identical, but they're they're just not. They're the one in the vacuum bag's a little bit better, and I think that's because there's no air involved in it. So if you if you you could then not use a you could put all the ingredients in a zippy, exclude the air without using a blender, like kind of smash it up on the counter by hand, make sure it's fully mixed and distributed, maybe give the uh the yolks like a little bit of a forking to break them all up before you add it. Uh and then you could strain it afterwards, and that would probably be uh and then or you know, strain it and whip it, you know, afterwards to get the kind of texture that you want. Um anyway, some combination of those things should work, but I believe it's the temperature that was your problem.
+
+[28:13] Okay, and then it I could also probably sort of like cold after, assuming that works, like in the whipper. Oh yeah. Any problem with that? Oh no. Like once you function once you once you get the egg yolks to the right temperature, they're they're good.
+
+[28:25] Then, you know, as long as they're not too thick, you should be able to put it out through your uh through your whipper. Like depends on how how thick you've gone, but usually it stays into a light portable consistency. And then the only trick is I usually when I'm doing things that are thick or if I'm doing fluid gels, I just put my finger over the tip of the uh whipper and snap it down towards the uh the head before I dispense just to make sure that I'm not you know just blasting nitrous out without getting the product out. You know what I mean? But it should work.
+
+[28:52] Yeah, definitely. It should refined it, it should hold a lot better. Oh yeah, definitely. Thanks. Hey, no problem.
+
+[28:57] Oh, also wait. If you mix it if you mix the stuff beforehand, right? You should be able to pressurize it in the ISI and just cook it in the circulator at the ISI, swirling it occasionally. Not gonna guarantee it, but it should work. You mean pressurize the ISI then then put it in the bath?
+
+[29:16] Yeah. You don't have to pressurize it beforehand. You could probably do it unpressurized and then pressurize it after you chill it. But it should work. In other words, you might be able to get around not having the bag by doing it in the ISI.
+
+[29:27] It's a fine. I like that idea. Yeah, give it a shot, Liz, as long as you don't have a thermal whip. Yeah, let us know how it works out. Okay, cool.
+
+[29:33] That's uh yeah, we'll do it. Thanks a lot. No problem. I have a second collar. All right, cool.
+
+[29:38] Squeeze it before the break. Yeah, squeezy. Squeeze. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave Arnold.
+
+[29:44] This is uh Martin from Peoria, Illinois. Well, how are you doing? Uh pretty good. So what I've been thinking about is I'm trying to find a way to infuse my basting butter. Right.
+
+[29:57] Uh what I wanted to see is is there a possible temperature that I could keep butter in a circulator with aromatics without the butter separating? To therefore potentially in the kitchen have a different basting butter for each protein. Oh would there not be flavor temperature? Would it break? Yeah.
+
+[30:17] Yeah. Uh yeah, they're gonna break. So you want to you want to do like a compound butter using a circulator but never have it melt? To not separate the milk solids so when I'm basting with it, I can still keep the solids and I can still form the carbohydrate flavors later, but also to um not have the chunks of just making a straight up compound butter, which could potentially burn in the pan. Yeah.
+
+[30:45] That's an interesting problem. Let me see. I just moved, so I haven't gotten a chance to experiment it all yet, but so I'm calling an asking. Yeah, that's a good problem. Let me think about this.
+
+[30:57] You know what I would do? I would I and I see if I this can be done. So the question is the question is can you re-functionalize the milk proteins? So like the interesting thing to do would be to to to to clarify the butter, right? Save the milk solids, right?
+
+[31:18] Measure how much water you've boiled off during the clarification process. All right, flavor the butter, flavor the butter, the butter fat, strain it, and then somehow recreate the butter from that. So the qu I don't know if that's possible. Here's how here uh here's a way that it's possible. If you made your own butter, you could just save the uh no, it's not gonna have all of it because it's gonna be.
+
+[31:46] I don't know whether that whether I mean I'm sure it's possible. Yeah. I've turned melted butter back into cream before using an ultrasonic homogenizer. So I know that I know it's possible to turn uh butter back to cream. Uh has a little bit of an off flavor, but uh not a lot.
+
+[32:09] Hmm. And I don't know, I don't know that first. I I don't know, for instance, that keeping butter in a bag in a circulator. Okay, so here's another thing. You could put like a circulator in a walk.
+
+[32:22] I used to do this with oysters. You put a circulator and a walk-in, you set it at 60. You know what I mean? Or 65. Something that's not quite hot enough to melt butter in the bag, and maybe you get better penetration, like maybe you keep enough uh uh enough solidity so that the butter holds its shape and doesn't break, but that you get better penetration of the flavors.
+
+[32:41] That's a that's another way to do it. Or like a wine cooler, you know, if you have a wine cooler or a wine fridge, is to vacuum bag it with the butter in a wine fridge, uh, or like I say, in a circulator underwater at a fixed temperature in a walk-in, which works very well. I mean, it's kind of a little wasteful, but uh works very well. Just keep it below the the temperature at which the butter is fully gonna break and melt out, uh, you know, like in a soft temperature range, like maybe in like what do you think, 70, something like this? Uh and Fahrenheit.
+
+[33:09] And then um, and then cold chill it to resolidify it so you know totally and then peel off the aromatics or scrape them off of the outside. It might be worth a shot. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna work on it, and if I figure anything out, I'll send you a tweet or something. Yeah, please do.
+
+[33:25] Alright, thank you. Alright, good luck with it. And let's take a break and come right back with cooking issues. White Oak Pastures is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey.
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+[34:07] One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, Whiteoak Pastures.com. You know, Jack, uh, I'm always so enamored of the way he says abattoil that like I haven't listened to the rest of it, but he's like from Miami, alright. That's like the end of the country going south.
+
+[34:38] All the way to Princeton. Princeton? Yeah. Hello? That's South here.
+
+[34:43] What are we, in the freaking Arctic? Like he's like, New York, no, crap on them. They don't deserve the products of my USDA inspected abattoir. It's it's a pretty good voice. White oak pastures.
+
+[34:53] I mean, that's that's good. Say I I like I love the way like I would eat any kind of poultry that man sells based on the way he says poultry. Give us some poultry. When you can cue it up. I know it's like Yeah, yeah.
+
+[35:03] Well, we'll maybe we'll surprise you later. Yeah, just like poultry. Poetry. I love that. But uh now I'm now I feel insulted.
+
+[35:09] He hates New Yorkers. He's like, Princeton, okay. New York, crap on those people, right? Anyways. Red meat abattoir.
+
+[35:21] It's so strong. That's so strong. Uh okay. Uh hey, and we had a another butter. Well, let me get me do Michael Natin.
+
+[35:28] Michael Knacken wrote in about the uh the question of using using the uh the Suze Vide and the circulator with um remember that guy that we uh had in the class and he would only pronounce it Suz Vide? And he was all he cared about was was uh pickled onions, the onions, the onions. Remember this? Oh my god, Suze Vide. I swear to God.
+
+[35:48] He's in a class with Mills and I for like two or three days straight. And like he hears us saying Sous vide, like 200, 300 times a day. You know what I mean? The difference between Sous vide and low temperature, sous vide, sous vide meat vacuum, sous vide, this sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, up until the very end of the class. Uh okay.
+
+[36:09] Uh this is from Michael Knacken. Uh one of our favorite vegetarian cooks, when you say you know, Eddie Shepherd, Michael Knacken. Does anyone else write in with the vegetarian? These are the people that we know. Anyway, one in the UK, one in the US.
+
+[36:21] And like very far separated, right? So you got your West Coast, Michael Knacken. He's West Coast, he's not Boston, right? He's in his isn't he over there in the Seattle area? Mm-hmm.
+
+[36:28] Anyways. So it's like, you know, they're kind of antipodal vegetarian chefs then. Right. Right? Okay.
+
+[36:34] Uh just heard Eddie Shepard's call. Here's an updated version of my note on uh sous vide and uh vegetables and uh circulators and vegetables. Um, by the way, he says, sorry I missed a question a couple of weeks ago about sous vegetables. I got hooked on a 28-episode Yale lecture series about the Civil War. Oh, better now.
+
+[36:51] Now you shafted me, Michael. Stas, like always says that I'm gonna like throw away all this food stuff and just go to do a civil war. Like so, because like freaking David Wundrich made me read Shelby Foote's, you know, eight billion word, like three-volume thing on uh on the Civil War, which took you know forever, like so many visits to the hopper to read that Shelby Foote thing, so much hopper reading. And uh now you got me hooked on it. I'm assuming you're referring to Professor Blight's Civil War 28 lecture series, because I had to look it up when I saw this, and now I'm sure I'm gonna go down to like a 28-lecture K-hole, thanks to you, and Stas is gonna have to like again torture me about civil war forever.
+
+[37:27] You know, we we were gonna buy a grist mill in Herndon, Virginia that that was for sale that was like totally falling apart. It was so cheap. Because like my my dream is to like whenever like New York's getting me down, is to like leave it all behind and just have my own water wheel, and just like whenever anyone pisses me off, it's just chuff, chuff, chff, chuff, chff, chff, chuff, chuff, chff of the water wheel. You know what I mean? Like someone calls me with some irritating thing and she's all I got flick on the water to like open the open the raceway and put grind some stuff.
+
+[37:56] You know what I mean? Anyways, grist mills. They sold the grist mill, and then someone was selling a grist mill in Virginia. You're not on it because you don't really want it. Well, well, that's not the case.
+
+[38:05] It's true. That's not the case. Stas looks at me the other day, because we we I sent the guy an email, him and a guy in Vermont. I said, Have you sold your grist mills yet? And and they said yes, and Stas looks at me without missing a beat and goes, Some other dude is living your life for you.
+
+[38:20] It's like, Stas, eh, that's not right. Anyways. Uh okay, uh back to Michael Naken. I think that the uh list you made of vegetarian applications for sous vide was pretty amazing, and I agree. Well, thank you.
+
+[38:32] Uh I agree with you that eggs alone are a good enough reason to own a circulator. And by the way, have you seen the C Ved egg calculator that Doug Baldwin and I built on the www.chefess. Chefsteps.com. That's chefsteps.com. Yes, I've seen it.
+
+[38:44] It's good. I like it. And I love what Eddie Shepard said too. Those mushroom burgers are baller. I can tell you from personal experience.
+
+[38:52] I agree with you that in general, precise temperature control isn't that necessary with typical vegetables. And that bagging to retain or add flavor is the bigger advantage. Although the kitchen team at Chef Steps has done some work that shows that 85 Celsius gives you better color than 95 Celsius for things like asparagus. So there's some upside in uh there and not having to manage a stove top simmer too carefully. That said, I don't bust out the circulator for veg on a daily basis.
+
+[39:16] Actually, I'm more likely to use the microwave in many cases. But besides all the ideas you mentioned, some other vegetarian uh uses I uh I enjoy is uh kanji. There's a kanji recipe. Uh so he does the kanji in the bag. Also, by the way, beans.
+
+[39:28] I never got it right, but beans in the bag, I don't know if I mentioned this, is similar to like how do you say flask in Italian, Stas? Have you forgotten your Italian already? Yeah. It's something like like fiasco. It's something like beans alla fiasco, like fagioli alla fiasco or something like that.
+
+[39:41] I love it because it sounds like it's a fiasco. But that's where you put the beans and the oil and if you're a cheserate fiasco? Yeah, and like see? Uh and the rosemary and whatever in the in the bottle, you put it in the oven, you cook it, blah. Good.
+
+[39:55] And you have to shake the beans out of the bottle. No one knows what I'm talking about here, C or C. Okay. And uh that would be a good application, but you gotta get the you gotta get the water level right, and the water level for a bean depends a lot on how old the beans are and how dry they are, and what kind of bean it is, which is why it's a difficult recipe. But, anyways, uh Michael's got a recipe for um a uh kanji there.
+
+[40:16] I love kanji. Who doesn't love kanji? Do you like kanji stas? Yeah. Whoa.
+
+[40:22] Surprise. Good. Uh for a shiitake kanji and a challenge uh on uh on the Herbivaracious site. And also where uh Michael wants to infuse a lot of flavor, as in his Sichuan cauliflower, also on uh herbivoraceous.com from 2013. Sichuan spicy cauliflower recipe dot H T M L.
+
+[40:42] Um, there you go. Ready? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh now, let's get some questions.
+
+[40:49] Andrew Hunter wrote in. Uh, I have a question for cooking issues about pigments. You like that word pigment? Not really. No?
+
+[40:55] But you don't hate it like you hate fungus or spore. Uh I have a question about I think pigment sounds gross. Pigment. I like pigs. Anyway, uh in wine.
+
+[41:05] For an event, I want to figure out a way to serve clear wine. Is there any way I could possibly remove pigments from wine without substantially altering the taste slash mouthfeel? I don't know a ton about the relevant chemistry, but my preliminary research on the Wikipedia suggests a lot of uh a lot of the same phenols, the color of the wine also provide wine-like flavors. So I'm pretty doubtful that this is feasible, but I figured I'd ask. Failing that, is there a good way?
+
+[41:28] I could fake it. Flavor isolates that aren't colored, plus watered down neutral spirits. The quality of the final product doesn't have to be particularly great. If I essentially get two buck chuck that looks like water, by the way, you see the two buck chuck article? Uh there's an article on, I think it's on the Huffington Post about like how nasty, I think it is, on like how nasty two buck chuck is in terms of like that there's like mice that they just scrape up everything, including like mice and like rodents and rats and whatever and bugs and spiders, and just throw them all in the fermenting vats because that's how it's two bucks because they just like you know, everything gets fermented.
+
+[41:59] And as and and like they were like horrified by it. I'm like, yeah, that's how that that's how that rolls. That's two dollar wine. That's two dollar wine. You've purchased wine that is two dollars.
+
+[42:08] And there's no like transfer of bacteria or anything. You're fermenting it. You're fermenting the hell out of it. And then they filter it. There's no hair or anything.
+
+[42:15] It's like, this is like it's it's two dollar wine. Anyway. Uh two buck chuck. Uh if I essentially get two buck chuck that looks like water, uh, I can work with that. He also bought unusable land because the quality of the grapes isn't high.
+
+[42:31] So he's just like growing like super high yield land that just is like mega yield of grapes. Guy's name is I think Shaw. Forget. And he just has like eight billion acres of this like incredibly high yield land that produces shitty grapes and also produces, I guess, rats and mice. And it scrapes them into a fermentation bucket and says, Go!
+
+[42:46] Ferment two buck two buck miracle. And he and it's all vertically integrated, so he doesn't have to pay anyone, you know what I mean? And then I was like, you know what though? Like, people where is the land? Somewhere in California.
+
+[43:00] Somewhere in Cal like somewhere in California. Uh, and it's uh, but it's it's like people like have no problem drinking really crappy beer, but they're horrified at the practices of the two buck chuck. Wood oval. Two buck chuck. Um, I can work with that.
+
+[43:15] Just has to be drinkable and make people say that's wine. Uh seems like a long shot, but I figured I'd ask. P.S. few years ago I randomly walked into Booker and Dax looking for a quick cocktail with a friend. I'd never heard of the bar before and no idea what I was getting into.
+
+[43:27] It was one of the best surprises I've ever had. Thanks so much for the great drinks. I particularly loved the Thai basil daiquiri. Well, thank you. Uh, Mr.
+
+[43:34] Hunter. So here's what I have to say. Uh, yeah, you're not gonna be able to get uh an actual good flavor without stripping a lot of the uh a lot of the you know, a lot of the characteristics of the wine. If you don't care that you're gonna be ruining the wine, you can look into activated carbon. Uh so listen, uh activated carbon is an incredibly complicated subject, right?
+
+[43:56] So for a primer, like a fairly opinionated primer, but just for a quick primer on uh how activated uh charcoals and carbons are made and what the differences between them uh are. Go to uh www.homedistiller.org uh and look for activated carbon for purification of alcohol by Gert Strand uh from Malamo, Sweden, who does not want you to reproduce uh his his uh his what do you think, Gert? Don't know. His her work in uh in any form. It's all copyright.
+
+[44:26] Whatever. Uh but it it talks about it because like uh there's various ways you can make uh the activated uh carbon. You you can use heat, you can use um like uh this chemical process, there's steam process, and they have different structures, and then depending on what the substrate was coconut husks or whatever, they make it out of the properties are very different. It all has to do with the surface area, the theoretical surface area uh of of the uh carbon, how it's been ground or milled down, and whether it contains mainly macro pores, mesopores, or micropores, because what you're filtering out has to have a s smaller size, uh sorry, the pores have to be you know the same size or larger as the ones, but not too much as the stuff you're trying to filter out. So there's billions of different, not billions, there's many kinds of uh activated carbon for different things.
+
+[45:10] I suggest going to Norit. Uh that's uh I don't have the website here, but Norit is a brand of activated uh uh charcoal. In fact, someone sent a tweet to me on this, and there's them actually decolorizing wine. There's literally a photo on the internet or a video on the internet of Norrit, N-O-R-I-T, brand, one of the Norrit brands of activated carbon being stirred into wine and then filtered through coffee, regular filter papers, slash that you know, that's a coffee filter. Uh fancy coffee filter, to pull out all of the uh uh carbon and stuff's clear.
+
+[45:40] Went from red wine to white wine, no problem. It's completely non-toxic. It's gonna strip a lot of aroma is the problem, but it will still probably taste uh like wine. So you see if you can get a sample. A lot of big companies will send out a sample, or you could try other brands of activated carbon.
+
+[45:54] You just gotta try to find whatever is similar to that so that it has it, or just experiment with it. Because remember, this is also the way the color is removed from aged rum. So most a lot of white rums are aged. Uh most white rums are I mean, not Ray and Nephew, but like most white rums are aged and then stripped of color using a charcoal filtration technique. Now, if you want to go really ball baller on it, I'm not saying you do, but if you want to go really baller on it, what I would do is put the wine in a rotary evaporator, distill all the alcohol and volatiles off of it, save it, then decolorize the water base with an activated charcoal because that's gonna pull mainly color, but won't strip a lot of volatiles, then re-add them and dilute them back to proof.
+
+[46:29] But that's a pain in the if you're willing to use two buck chuck for this, then I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna make a little leap and say that you don't need to go and use a roto vap to do this kind of a thing. What do you think, Stuff? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, okay. So try that.
+
+[46:40] Uh I wouldn't try using uh like uh if you if you shift the acidity of it, because they're anthocyanin pigments, you can make it colorless by adding a bunch of sodium hydroxide to it, but in no case should you drink that. Yeah. Okay. Ah my uh geez, come on, really. Well, you know.
+
+[46:57] Ah man. Alright. Uh I'll I mean it's I'll give a little shout out to the things that I didn't talk about today. Ruben wrote in about cherry pit liqueur. Uh, and I'm glad I didn't have a chance to talk about this because I didn't find a satisfactory answer yet.
+
+[47:11] A lot of conflicting information about uh like how to figure out how much cyanide or cycanogenic compounds are gonna be in a stone fruit liqueur. Uh although there's an awesome uh web post, I forget who did it. It's called Yes or Noyo for using stone fruit liqueurs. Awesome. And then uh Brian wrote in about cultured butter and how to make a better cultured butter.
+
+[47:33] And I'm shit really sad because I did a lot of research on this. And uh and it contains the word uh leukonostock meserentoroides. And whenever anyone says Lucanostock styles, what song do I think about? I don't know. I said on the show, Lucanostat, it's Lucanbach, Texas.
+
+[47:48] You know the song, Lucanbach, Texas? But it's Lucano stock. And so now, like the entire time over, when I was biking, I was like, Lucano stock, Texas. You know that song? With Willie and Whelan and the boys.
+
+[47:59] You know the song? Yeah, Wayland Jennings? Jesus, come on, people, get some culture. Uh so I'll get to that. Although next week we're not here.
+
+[48:05] Next week I'm in California in the Redwoods. And I won't have cell service. I won't be able to call in. So we're gonna be gone next week, but I'll get this when I come back. Chris Chris Collar, it's also it's collar like Holler, right?
+
+[48:14] Wrote in about Lao Sang Suchong, whether the smoke is carcinogenic. Maybe, but I wouldn't worry about it. Uh and I'll research it. And also, uh, I got uh I had a blender question with blender stuff. Uh I'm gonna from Michael uh I'm gonna get that next next time.
+
+[48:30] And tomatoes in the fridge, and we'll leave with this tomatoes in the fridge, and we'll come back in two weeks. Uh the question was from uh why Heston Blumenthal can put peeled tomatoes into ice water so that they don't continue cooking after they've been blanched and it doesn't ruin the texture. Whereas, as we all know, only enemies of quality put tomatoes in the fridge. And the reason is the mealiness in tomatoes doesn't uh develop immediately just regarding being chilled, the way that you can chill some things and it destroys the texture immediately. Instead, it is storage at low temperatures that causes tomatoes to turn mealy.
+
+[48:59] So as long as they're in and out of the ice water in a relatively short amount of time, your tomatoes won't go mealy. And if you really want to get kung fu about it, think about this. Why can you store cherry why can cherry tomatoes and grape tomatoes be stored in the fridge successfully without them turning bad? And it's because they're mostly seed and gel. And the seed and gel portion does not turn mealy, only the fleshy parts.
+
+[49:18] So in tomatoes that have very small amounts of fleshiness to them, like cherry tomatoes, they can be stored fairly successfully in the fridge without them turning too crappy, but don't let anyone know that I said that. Cooking issues.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[49:59] Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:35] Hello, and we're back after a one week week uh hiatus on Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Berth's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. Hey does that. And uh we have uh Jack in the engineering booth and also for the first time in the engineering booth, uh Wyatt.
+
+[0:55] How are you guys doing? We're great. Yeah, so why what is it that you uh that you do here at the Heritage Radio Network? Hmm, nice. Sweet.
+
+[1:04] Awesome. And do we by the way, Jack, did we ever get uh did we ever get uh cutting the curd uh scheduled to call in and have a cutting the cooking issues uh yeah, hopefully he's gonna come on the second half today. Oh, nice. All right, so yeah. All right.
+
+[1:17] So uh this last week I was gone because I was in uh Nastasia's home state. Actually, my home state. Yeah. But we moved out, you know, I moved out when I was uh three, and uh Nastasia had to stay in Covina long enough to see the filming of Goodburger before she came out uh to the sweet sweet East Coast. I had no idea that Goodburger was uh filmed in uh your hometown.
+
+[1:37] Yeah. So for like years did you walk around going buggity buggedity buggedity buggedity buggity boogity? Or no? No, I think it was when it was in elementary school. So it's like ninety-six, right?
+
+[1:47] 97? Yeah. Yeah. Freshman. Classic, Sinbad.
+
+[1:50] Do you remember the movie at all? Sinbad. Sinbad is uh in, I think it's a relatively late role for Sinbad, but uh he is the uh teacher who's a little bit crazy who gets hit by like hit by uh the the car by Dexter's car. And he's got these heat lapels and a sweet, sweet fro in that movie. Uh my kids are now obsessed with Goodburger.
+
+[2:14] White points out George Clinton also in that movie. George Clinton was one of the dancing crazies in the uh in the institution. Uh yeah, you're like, holy crap, that's the actual yeah. The movie has like like lots of like little kind of classic nuggets in it, you know. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:33] Classic, classic uh good good Goodburger style movie there. But my the problem is I can't get my kids to stop imitating and repeating portions of it. There's a good burger like in Union Square or something, right? They're not related, really. They're not really they must be somehow related.
+
+[2:49] I mean, I don't know. I I mean I don't know. The movie must have come first. Oh, yeah. Right.
+
+[2:54] Yeah. But the question is, is like, you know, can you start a restaurant called Good Burger and like not worry about infringing on Goodburger the movie? I mean, obviously it's helping you. If if people assume that you have Ed's special secret sauce, you know, in your burger, then I assume you are ripping off some of the IP of the movie, and you know, you should kind of be punished for that. We have to do some research on that.
+
+[3:17] Yeah, yeah. Someone check into this for us and tell us whether Goodburger, the restaurant. I mean, uh I mean, I don't know that I want to be associated with a restaurant where you know one of the employees takes a bath in the running strawberry milkshake machine, and I also uh don't uh really get the wisdom of having strawberry be your only flavor of milkshake. I mean, for for years, uh, you know, Wendy had the had the frosty in only one flavor, chocolate, and I'm always a vanilla shake kind of kind of a guy. But you ever had the frosty stuff?
+
+[3:47] No. Jack? Wyatt, ever had the Wendy Stross. Yeah, here's the deal. Why the hell do they give you a straw with that thing at all?
+
+[3:53] Oh, I know. It doesn't work. Never, never, never, never. I mean spoon. Yeah, spoon meal.
+
+[3:59] Those of you that have seen me in like uh like a full like spitting red-faced rant know that I have lungs. And like I can suck strong enough to completely collapse the straws under the force of vacuum from when I'm sucking on them. Even a perfectly round one that I haven't mashed with any sort of pre-anger, I can just like take a perfectly round straw, like even if it had a protective casing on it, and suck that sucker flat in a frosty. And what this means to me is that the frosty should just be served in an open cup with a spoon. Yeah.
+
+[4:26] You know? Anyways, but uh I'm told now that they have vanilla frosties. I mean, I don't know what that's all about. Like they have extra space in a Wendy's restaurant now, or they that they just have an extra flavor of frosty. I don't know.
+
+[4:38] I don't know. But if you guys were gonna pick one flavor of shake, would it be strawberry? No. I mean, not as your personal flavor, but as like you have to sell to customers. No.
+
+[4:47] No. And this is why Mondo Burger almost took Good Burger out of business. I mean, because they just think about stuff like that. Whereas, you know, all those other guys have is Abe Vagoda. By the way, I would go to any restaurant.
+
+[4:56] Is Abe Vagoda still alive? Oh, it's a good question. That's a look. I kinda love me some Abe Vagoda. Even back then in the 90s, they were saying that he was about to die, which is kind of rough to say to your fry cook.
+
+[5:06] But anyway, good good times. Do people in Covina talk like that, Stas? I I don't know. I haven't seen the movie. Fast food!
+
+[5:14] Abe Good is still alive. Sweet. He's 93. I love Abe. I love me some Ape Vagoda.
+
+[5:22] You know who Avigota is, right, Styles? Do you love Abe Vagoda? Abe Vagoda, one of the one of the people name checked in uh, I think was it Hello Nasty that the BC's uh checked Abe Vagoda? I don't know. Anyway.
+
+[5:29] Love me some Abe Vagoda. Okay. So uh, oh, but yeah, so where was I? I was in California, and it turns out I went to some places in California that I visited when I was like a very, very small boy, the coastal redwoods, which are sick amazing. And by the way, that's where they filmed uh Return of the Jedi.
+
+[5:48] Like the Ewok Forest. So if you've never been to the coastal Redwoods before, don't worry, the forest moon of whatever it is. What is it? Endor? Endor?
+
+[5:54] Ewoks, anyone? Anyway, so if you look at Return of the Jedi, where they're flying through on the speeders and smashing into the trees and crap, like that's where they filmed it. And these trees are I mean, I'm my wife took all the good pictures because she's got the iPhone 5 and I'm on like a like a flat four with like a like a cracked out camera. But like I saw I'll put some pictures up, but uh holy crap, they are some impressive sons of guns. They're I live in a 20-story building, and these these trees are uh almost twice as tall as my building.
+
+[6:20] The tallest tree I saw was like topped like 375 for the Redwoods, and it makes like these awesome Douglas firs that are only like 300 feet tall look like puning tins. You know what I mean? Meanwhile, any tree here would look like a shrub compared to the ones you have over there. I also visited the Sequoyas in Yosemite. Yosemite amazing, obviously.
+
+[6:38] But what I didn't know is kind of how awesome the kind of Sierras are. I went to and also we went to Lawson Volcanic Park, which is a national park in California that nobody knows about, and nobody was there. Like nobody. Nobody. Like we like saw like maybe one car, two cars in the hour and a half drive we were driving to get to where we were going in Lawson State Park.
+
+[6:56] And when I told the person at Lawson, I was like, oh, you know, my friend McGee told me I should, you know, come and check this out. She's like, You didn't know about Lawson? I was like, no. She's like, it's a national park. I was like, but I don't live in California.
+
+[7:07] She's like, it's a national park, we're a national park. I was like, oh my god, they have such a chip on their shoulder. If you go to Lawson, which is in like uh like upper uh upper east of California, do not mention that you're going to Yosemite. Because I went to Yosemite. The uh the the lady at the at the visitor center was like, I was like, Yeah, yeah, we just got from Lasin Lassen.
+
+[7:25] She's like, Lassen? I was like, it's a national park. She's like, nope, doesn't ring a bell. I'm like, it's in California. Nope.
+
+[7:31] Like say, like Lassen is like the forgotten state park. But it's pretty cool for those of you that are in that area. And uh I was just uh really, you know, surprised and amazed at the variation in beauty in California, especially your coniferous forests. Anyways, so uh that's what I was doing. Uh oh, I cooked some good stuff on the camp, by the way.
+
+[7:51] I cooked a crap ton of stuff with the sears all. Boat ton of stuff with the sears all. Made pizza with the searsol, because I was in one camp uh for two days, so I did a 24-hour uh rise on the dough and then flashed it off with the searsol, and I had with me some some schmortza, some smoked schmorza, and you know, instead of mozzarella and some uh parmigiano and some tomato paste and anchovies, some oil, crushed it all up, and the next day, Stas, the ultimate camp food, by the way. Uh risotto a la a la a la uh with porcinis. Wait, so risotta alfungi.
+
+[8:18] And so I had like the super expensive dried porcinis, which are like, you know, super expensive but super lightweight. Some Parmigiano, which doesn't need to be refrigerated, obviously. Uh I bought the you'd be happy, Stas, the Italian Brodo cubes, like the little like, you know, stock cubes that I normally won't use, but for camping are great. And it's just busted that crap out. The kids didn't like it because I don't really like mushroom risotto, but to hell with them.
+
+[8:42] You know what I mean? I made them like leftover grilled cheese sandwiches. By the way, was on the did a picnic with the Searzol only. Did grilled cheese sandwiches on the banks of the Smith River with a Searsol. Sweet.
+
+[8:51] And now you know how on the first night when you go camping, you have ice, so you have that's when you have your steak. Or whatever. Yeah, I see some sweet steaks. See steaks. Sweet sweet steaks.
+
+[8:59] Anyway, okay. Two uh what'd you do this last week? How are this? How are the sears all doing? Are they in the air?
+
+[9:08] Yeah, they are. They're in the air. Alright, so that's uh that's the that's the current update. They are in the air from China on the way to the good old Eta'uniz here. Uh anyway, let's get some questions.
+
+[9:20] Uh Nick Mallon writes in. Uh, and thank you, Nick, for providing the name Mal in. I like that. M-A-L-I-N. Uh he spells his name like Fallon, but writes it like the Anyway, whatever.
+
+[9:34] Uh about green meat. Hey Dave. Uh uh, I'm writing on behalf of sh a Chef Steps Forum question that is seemingly gone unanswered. After 72 hours in a circulated water bath at 54 degrees Celsius, and what is 54? I can never remember what 54 is.
+
+[9:51] It's like 129, 130 or something like that. Somewhere in there. Uh the vacuum-sealed short ribs were green on the outside. No smell, no funk, just the color was off. I did not add any uh salt or oil to the bag pre-cooking.
+
+[10:05] I simply had dried off the shorties before bagging them. Then uh after I sealed them, I place them in simmering water for a few seconds to rid any surface bacteria that can cause funkiness uh with long cooking times, and that was it. I gave them a quick sear, which I will assume be doing with my sears all and enjoyed them. People in the forum have suggested air leakage or pre-salting effect, but uh like I said, I added nothing to the bag and there was no leak, so uh would love to hear from you. Thanks, uh Nick.
+
+[10:29] Uh P.S. Thanks for hating wraps as much uh as I do. Eat a damn sandwich, people. Alright, this is an interesting question. And uh I will start by saying uh that I have some links to point to, but I don't have a definite answer, but I will say this.
+
+[10:44] Uh in the many, many years that I cooked uh boat tons of uh short ribs, uh suns sauce and with sauce uh sous vide, because that was one of the standard things that we would uh cook in the uh low temperature uh class, we would cook short ribs eight billion different ways and sear them off because it's kind of a it's one of the classic low temperature things and whatever. Anyways. And also, not just with short ribs, but with uh steaks and other whole whole pieces of meat, whole cups like this, is they often do take a greenish tinge, uh take on a greenish tinge on the very outside of the meat uh that goes away when you sear it the second time. And it looks really, really bad. In fact, you know, one of the arguments that I always uh would say to people, because you know it used to be a big argument, do you sear before or do you do you sear after?
+
+[11:35] And you know, the answer I always have is of course both, but if you had to choose one, you choose sear after because uh the surface of the meat not only doesn't look like it has a nice crust, but often looks discolored and messed up, and it gets fixed by like a quick sear, because as you say, uh like that coloration is not uh necessarily come along with any sort of off-flavor or funky flavor. Now, when you when you cook something low temp for a long time, especially when you get as low as 54 in that range, you often have the problem of super funky blue cheese nasty meat stank, uh, which comes from uh lactic acid bacteria and their relatives that are growing and often cause blow off in the bag if you get floaters. But as you say, you might want to go more than a few seconds, but a dunk in simmering water does a lot to a kickstart the temperature right at the surface of the meat and to stop any bacteria that are at the surface from kind of pen penetrating in. Now, uh when you describe green, you also have to describe kind of what color of green you mean. Because there's also, and I don't think this is what you're talking about, there's the phenomenon of iridescence in cooked meats, specifically cured cooked meats, but it could be in non-cured meats as well.
+
+[12:40] And this is a physical structural phenomenon that you get. You often see it in deli meats. You've seen that before, stuff, right? Like that's not uh something to kind of worry about, although some people don't like the look of it because they think it means it's spurled, but it's not spurled, it's just iridescent meat. And there's a lot of literature actually on iridescent meat.
+
+[12:56] But that's not what you're talking about. I'm assuming what you're talking about, it's not um bright green, it's more of like an army blackish green. You've seen that before on the surface of the shorter, right? It looks disgusting. Yeah.
+
+[13:08] Uh and so then the question is, well, what causes that? Short answer, I don't know. But I did some initial research. There's uh most of the greening in meats is, and I I'll send you to a couple of articles that are available on meat color in general. This one doesn't have so much about greening, but uh you look it up.
+
+[13:24] It's uh it on Purdue.edu's uh uh site, they have uh a meat color PDF that is pretty uh good review on meat color. And unlike the reviews that I've been using from like four four years ago or whatever, which is the last time I seriously investigated meat colors, this one's available free online. So if you go to uh www.cfs.purdue.edu and search for their a meat color PDF, uh you can you can take a look at that. Um another good resource to look at is uh look up uh the meat industry services. Can you believe that's a corporation?
+
+[14:00] Meat industry services. They have a uh they have a uh uh thing called color defects in meat. Uh and it's an update uh and it's a good PDF, and you you want to read about that. Because I think you typically it looks like greening colors in meats are due usually to sulfur and uh so sulf sulf myoglobin. Uh and either sulfur or hydrogen peroxide are the two kind of things, both of which uh are usually present as the result of um bacteria that are that are there on uh on the meat.
+
+[14:35] Now uh some of the bacteria are things like uh Ycella viridescens, which is uh you can look to there's uh an article called uh I guess it's Y cella, maybe it's Vicella. Anyway, um if it's German, it'll be Vicella Vessens in meat products, uh a review by uh Marta Descova, uh which is out in 2012, which talks about it, which causes like kind of very vivid greens um in in meats. Um but and there's also uh uh a specific greening in meats that has a high pH. So I don't know if you had a particular uh piece of meat, for instance, meats that are high have a high pH, i.e. are not uh acidic enough and cooked in and that are stored in vacuum environments, have a known situation where they can have uh greening take place on the on the on the surface, but it can also happen in uh in other environments if bacteria are there and apparently it doesn't take very much sulfur present.
+
+[15:30] So they form like I guess they form hydrogen sulfide or they break some sulfur off of sulfur containing amino acids in uh in the proteins. That's where the that's where the sulfur's coming from from the from protein breakdown on the surface. Um, and I don't think it's been studied that much in long long-term uh low temperature cooking, but some of these bacteria, uh greening bacteria, if that's it, it is what it is, uh, you know, take a long time to kill, uh, even at relatively elevated temperatures and actually can be strengthened by uh an initial heat shock. So it could be something there. I don't know.
+
+[16:03] But I know that searing makes it go away. Just check out those articles, and anyone who else who can get back to me and give me a better answer, please ado. Got a caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave.
+
+[16:13] A huge, huge fan of the show. Uh this is Ray, formerly DC now living in Crown Heights. Oh, Crown Heights. I just had a comment. Uh I enjoyed last week when you were talking about raw onions.
+
+[16:24] I think an emailer called about getting a metallic taste. And I'm not sure if this is uh relevant to what they were doing. But I know Rick Bayless of uh Mexican Cuisine Fame talks about rinsing the the onions after he uh cuts them and serves them raw. And I've noticed a big difference uh in doing that. Well, I would presume that's true because uh, you know, the the the kind of harshness in onions, especially okay, so look, right?
+
+[16:51] So there's some there's some chefs like uh like you know, um Michael Palambino who's like I remember I saw him like go ape ape crap on someone because they cut their onions beforehand, right? Because you know, the longer an onion sits after it's cut, like the more this kind of problem happens. But the you know truth of the matter is a lot of us have to cut onions beforehand for me's or for whatever, or if you're gonna serve it like in a salsa or it's gonna be cut and served fresh and not cooked again. And um, you know, the like I think m almost all of the stuff that's happening in an onion happens after the tissues are broken, right? And so it's a reaction between um what's going on in the broken tissues and juices and in this case, carbon knives, uh carbon steel knives, or any sort of like non-passivated kind of steel surface or other metal ions for that matter.
+
+[17:37] And so, yeah, I would bet rinsing helps out because I think it probably gets rid of a lot of the free surface crap that's been kind of liberated. Probably even like a light soak. I mean, the problem is onions are so porous that if you soak them too long, they'll just soak up uh they'll soak up you know, water, which I don't think is what you want, but yeah, I would bet that works. I mean, like Yeah, I usually just give them a quick rinse, and that seems to uh that seems to do it, especially for salsa or anything. Yeah, anything wrong.
+
+[18:02] Yeah, nice. Nice. Awesome. So uh love the show, and I like all the the side notes, and I don't know, uh I think it's been on the internet for a little while, but the James Brown Miso Soup commercial. Think you might like it if you haven't seen it.
+
+[18:14] Wait, James, like so someone took which James Brown song did they take? Uh which one? I think it was the one you guys used to use on your commercial breaks a long time ago. I don't know which one it is. They kind of remix it, and it's it's a Japanese commercial, and it's it's it's bizarre, but it's uh highly entertaining.
+
+[18:31] And it and it makes it sound like James Brown is a huge fan of Miso Soup, not that he wasn't, I have no idea. Oh no, it's him. It's it's him. Hey Dave. Dave, I'm gonna break the rules real quick and just run this.
+
+[18:42] You used to this. Oh man. How did they I wonder what it sounds like he's saying Liz Khalifa? Yeah, maybe he is. I don't know.
+
+[19:06] That is awesome. Uh yeah, that's uh that's uh sex machine. By the way, you know who's playing bass on that is Bootsy Collins. Uh Bootsy Collins was a very uh young uh guy on the tour bus when uh James Brown was working on that, and he ended up that was kind of one of his like big early base gigs, was a sex machine, which is maybe why it's got such a s I mean look, all of James Brown's bases were awesome, but I mean I have a special love in my heart for Bootsy, but that is a classic. I would love to like figure out, like by listening, if I can figure out what clips of his voice they took to make him say miso soup.
+
+[19:39] And I like how it's not really doesn't sound like it was really mixed by a native English speaker, because not exactly how I would have imagined James Brown screaming me so. That's perfect though. I like it. It makes it even better. Jack, you already knew about this and didn't tell me?
+
+[19:54] I I did not know about this. Alright, well, you've just I'm now gonna probably waste several hours of Nastasha's life once we get back to the lab, like like playing that and then and then figuring out in my head exactly where they chopped it up. So thank you. Thank you for throwing away several of Nastasha's precious. As she bows her head down.
+
+[20:15] Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. And uh keep going. Rock on, guys. Love it.
+
+[20:19] All right, Jack, should we take a commercial break? Um, yeah, give me one second here. All right, we'll come right back with some cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a local?
+
+[20:40] Our Northeast regional forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their products sold at our stores. Whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution methods, she's helping some of the area's best new products reach Savvy shoppers at Whole Foods Market stores. Today, New York.
+
+[21:10] Tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. And we are uh back. Let me get a couple of questions from at Harvard next week. Oh yeah.
+
+[21:32] Going with uh McGee and I are doing the uh Harvard uh lecture next week. We're gonna do the class lecture, which I normally are you going up this town, Stas? I think so. I'm doing the class lecture, which uh you know McGee and I have done for the past what, like three years now? Four years, three years?
+
+[21:46] Three? Like for the initial one, like uh, and uh this year we're not gonna blow anything up. Right? I'm not gonna I'm not gonna cause the entire uh Harvard science center to be evacuated. The d remember the depressed looks on those, like on those undergrads fa or grads wherever they were in their lab jackets with like staring at the ground in and like in the dark and cold when we evacuated them from that building.
+
+[22:11] Yeah. Yeah, good times. Not and uh the um anyway, so I'm gonna do that, which is the normal class we're gonna do. I'm gonna do some pro hopefully some new demos, but I think it's just gonna be rapidly slap you know, demos, so it shouldn't cause too many problems like I normally do. Uh hopefully they're fun.
+
+[22:28] We got a couple of demos that are are really good for that kind of thing. Like um maybe I won't spoil it if you think anyone's no one's listening is now it's gonna be at Harvard. I don't know, we'll talk about it afterwards. But I have a couple of demos that I really enjoy. Like when you do demos, like the good like the bad thing about doing demos over and over again is that Nastasha tells you that you say the same crap over and over again.
+
+[22:46] Then no, the same anecdotes. I don't know. I it's not true. It's not true. It depends.
+
+[22:52] Like certain things, like our. So here's what here's where I'm going with this. So like the deal is is that, you know, uh, you know, when you've been teaching a while, you come up with demos and you see kind of what really demonstrates uh something. And so, like a lot of the things that you think are going to demonstrate stuff, they don't really work, but then other ones that you don't know, they do, like the oil and water. That's such a good demo, the oil and water, heated oil and water.
+
+[23:13] Anyways, and so uh, you know, like the good news is you with teaching is you come up with these demos that you know you really like people really stick in people's heads, and if you do them for long enough or enough times, you really get to uh get a feel for what it is that sticks in people's heads about it, so you can really kind of like you know, jigger the pedagogy around that crap. Um and so anyway, we're building up we we're building up a list of demos and we're I'm gonna bust some of them out at the at the Harvard gonna be good. But then for the public lecture, McGee and I are gonna do a lecture we've never done before. It's gonna be, although you probably heard some of the same crap because it's the stuff I rant about all the time. So if you're in the if you're in the uh Cambridge area, I think that one's on Monday.
+
+[23:54] Yeah, Monday, Monday evening. We're doing a public lecture, and the subject of the public lecture is gonna be what the hell's been going on the past kind of 20 years, like what's really going on. You know what I mean? And so it's gonna talk about how um you know the uh use of science is not just related to kind of these new technical and modern cooking things. It's gonna be kind of how you know we don't think that what uh everyone's doing the same, kind of you know, analyzing the difference between kind of like what Wiley does, what Grant does at a Linia, or what what other huckster things are like kind of where this movement is gone and kind of what it means and what people are actually trying to do when they do it, as well as talk about kind of what's different in food now in terms of who's going into it as is going into it before.
+
+[24:34] So this kind of a discussion. And I'm sure I'll make some digs at my favorite targets like Airvati's and and and whatnot. And I think we've got to find I'm gonna replay that video I did at Portland of the remember the stuff that we that video we made with Piper on like the crappiest cocktail of all time using all like the weak, weak, weak molecular gastronomy techniques that I have no problem labeling as that because I think they're just P.T. Barnum Huckster crap. And just making so I did a uh a lecture at Portland Cocktail, what was that, two years ago?
+
+[25:01] Year and a half? Two years. Two tears. And uh we did a video that was like all of the crappiest things you could think of, like to do to a cocktail, like just the worst, worst cocktail. And uh and so we went through this whole two-minute video.
+
+[25:14] I can't remember whether there's music or not. There might have been music. Uh if not, I'll put music on it. Because it needs some sort of stupid demo music in it. And then uh and then at the end, like literally we just flash up this sucks.
+
+[25:27] This sucks. Remember that? This sucks. This is terrible. This is everything that's wrong with cooking and cocktails.
+
+[25:33] This is the worst thing in the world. And uh literally after the demo someone asked me for the recipe. It was the worst. Worst one of the worst moments of my life. It's like it's like I always tell people um and should any of you out there who can hear my voice have to do a demonstration uh for a camera that where where someone has the ability to edit you afterwards.
+
+[25:57] Never show them what not to do because you think you're helping. So like when someone's co showing me in person, like I appreciate it when they specifically do something wrong and show me how to do it wrong so that I know not to do it that way. So like so I show someone how to do it right or what I think is right and then I show someone actually I I'll I'll F it up. I'll make it wrong on purpose so that they can see it happening wrong. And then hopefully let them taste and see how screwed up it is when they do it wrong.
+
+[26:23] Inevitably editors use the wrong thing and put it up without explanation in video clips. Inevitably. It's just inevitable. So if you are ever in a situation where someone can edit you and you're not in the editing room, never demonstrate what not to do. You've seen how many times have you seen that says?
+
+[26:40] Yeah. A bunch. And then you're like, no one knows any way to shut up, Dave. That's what you say. You say, eh, I freak out about it, and you're like, nobody gives a crap.
+
+[26:47] Nobody knows. Anyway. Ruben wrote in about cherry pits. Dear shipping container occupants. I scored some delicious sour cherries this summer and have a couple of questions on putting them to use.
+
+[26:57] One, I'm planning to make a sorbet with the cherries, puree, sweeten the 28 bricks, chill spin. Sounds good. Any thoughts on what sugar will ensure a good texture? I understand the mechanics of freezing point depression, and I normally experiment but don't have enough fruit left. I've got dextrose, fructose, liquid glucose, etc.
+
+[27:12] I would just look. I would just look up like a recipe. I don't have kind of the ratios in in my head. I would just uh I I forgot to look this aspect of it up. But uh obviously you can um make something more sweet and make it softer, or use invert and have it be softer uh because of the increased um freezing point depression.
+
+[27:35] I would just look up somebody else's recipe and see kind of what they add. I wouldn't add, I wouldn't add too much. Uh I'm sorry I forgot to look up the numbers now because that's stuff that I I wouldn't want to quote out of my head. I just don't do it enough. But two, here we go.
+
+[27:48] Here's what I actually looked into for you. I have a lot of leftover pits. Any tips on working with them to safely make uh how do you even think you pronounce it? Noyo, right? Noyo pit.
+
+[27:57] Noyo or uh or ice cream. I'd like to extract the most flavor, but I have no idea how to dose them to avoid cyanide toxicity and can't find any seemingly reliable information. I've seen some comments that roasting the pits eliminates the risk, but not much in the way of justification. Uh can't say how much I enjoy the show every week. Thanks you all, Ruben.
+
+[28:15] So what we're worried about here is that any of the stone fruit, uh, and it's really the kernel, you know what I mean, not the not the not the meat, well, not the meat and not the not the roughly crap. You know what I'm talking about? Mm-hmm. The roughly crap on the pit. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:29] The kernel. So the when you taste them, and this is like uh, you know, any stone fruit, apple, you know, pips, um, all that stuff. Uh what the problem with it is is that it contains uh amygdalin. Amygdalin, when you chew on it, uh enzymes can uh convert uh the amygdalin into sweet, sweet cyanide, which is poisonous, uh, but also benzaldehyde, which is the aroma we get from um from like you know that all almond extract, benzaldehyde, which is what we like in in an amaredo cookie or something like this. Now, if you're just throwing a couple of uh apricot kernels, which is typically what you buy here in the in the States, uh into a batch of almond cookies, then you know it's not gonna be a problem.
+
+[29:13] But when you're doing uh a boat ton of uh apricot pits, in fact, the cyanide level can, or whatever, what are we using again? You're using cherries. You can get uh enough uh problematic crap, cyanide, to uh cause problems. So uh man, and there is not a lot of information out there. So I I will defer to uh, you know, uh chemistry drink meister Darcy O'Neill.
+
+[29:38] So if you're not familiar with uh Art of the Drink uh uh blog, you know, Darcy is a chemist and kind of drink person. He's the person who wrote Fix the Pumps, which is kind of the game-changing book on uh bringing back the art of the soda jerk. Uh and um fix the pumps is uh a sl old slang, soda jerk slang for check out the stacked lady at the uh bar. Fix the pumps. Uh I think that's what it is.
+
+[29:59] That's my memory. Uh so he in August uh 31st, 2011, put a big post up on uh cherry, specifically I think cherries, uh, but any sort of stone fruit and um cyanide in liquor specifically, and goes through this different steps you can do, and he's a second post on how to get rid of it. His take on it, because he did some calculations based on the number of milligrams per milliliter cyanide in in standard pits that he was able to get off the internet uh and like the amount that's there. That yes, it is possible to um have a dangerous level and that he wouldn't necessarily keep it around and recommend consuming it, even though people have done it for a long time. Here is what he said uh though in the second part where he says how to mitigate the uh problems.
+
+[30:45] One, if you leave the stuff a long time. So here's what he says. I'll just I'll just read his quote. Uh because he talks about how to get rid of it via distillation, which is possible. He also, by the way, just says buy uh you know, oil of almonds, we always benzaldehyde in it and just have it done with.
+
+[31:00] But because he's thinking that someone is trying to make that flavor, not that someone has a product that they want to get the best use of, right? I mean, I think the reason that you're not going and buying crap to make that flavor is because you have this product, it has other flavors in it besides the benzaldehyde and you want to use these things. So, you know, whatever. So you can't just go buy uh the flavor and have done with it. But here's what it here's what it goes.
+
+[31:19] Um since distillation method isn't practical for the average person, here's another though much slower method. Think months. Hydrogen cyanide can be hydrolyzed to formic acid and ammonia. Yes, formic acid, the same stuff that fire ants use to piss you off. Hydrolyzation is done in the presence of water.
+
+[31:35] So if you just infuse apricot kernels in vodka, some of the hydrogen cyanide will decompose. But the process is very slow. Heat will help. It should also be noted that formic acid has a fruity mustard aroma. So aging it for a long time.
+
+[31:48] Okay, and this is still Darcy. Okay, I understand you're impatient. So here's one more method. A number of sources have indicated that roasting the kernels at 176 degrees Celsius for 10 to 15 minutes will drive off the hydrogen cyanide. This could work, but you have to make sure all the kernels are free from the shell and ground coarsely.
+
+[32:02] I'd recommend adding enough water to make a wet mass and set aside for an hour or more to ensure that the amygdalene and beta D glucosidase, which is the enzymes that make the sweet smell, uh, can react. Afterwards, spread the mixture on a baking sheet and heat until dry. There is no guarantee that this method will remove all of the cyanide, but it should remove some. Dry roasting is not effective since amygdale is stable at that temperature. Also, the boiling point of benzaldehyde, which is the aroma you want, is 178 degrees Celsius, which is just two degrees higher than the cooking temperature.
+
+[32:32] So you will most likely drive off some of the flavor component you are trying to capture. So uh so there you have, you know what he says about it. I'll also add that you could probably heat it. The problem is that I don't know, it's an interesting thing. I if I was doing it, I would just age it for like a year.
+
+[32:48] Do it and age it for a year and kind of see what happens. You know, if you're Darcy, you're lucky enough to have the uh equipment. You could actually test whether or not you've gotten rid of it or not. You guys can't. Uh anyway, so I hope that answered uh some of your uh questions uh on that.
+
+[33:05] Um right, let's see where we are here. Stan B right wrote in uh we talked about his caramel. So greeting from France. We talked about caramel what, two weeks ago, three years ago? Uh three or four weeks ago, I asked a question about replacing sugar in a recipe with caramel, i.e., the same amount of cooked to a brownness sugar.
+
+[33:23] Uh I tried to also make meringues with it, and the result is interesting. Um, and to go through the recipe, I I make a dry caramel uh with about 200 grams of table sugar and poured it uh well hot uh on uh 100 grams of egg whites being whipped, almost the same as Italian meringue. After shaping the meringue, I cooked them for two hours at 120 C. Quite a bit of the liquid caramel turned solid when pouring into the egg whites, it got a bit scary scary with caramel bits making the strong clingity cling sound from the electric whip. Maybe a better technique would be add a bit of water into the caramel to turn it into a syrup closer to an actual Italian meringue.
+
+[33:52] That should lower the amount of recrystallization before the caramel gets mixed into the egg whites or other prep. The taste was good, not great, but good and close to expectations. But soon after baking and once cooled, the meringues had a very brittle texture with a bit of crunch before turning to powder. However, after five or six hours, the meringues turn very soft, almost marshmallow-like. As you had mentioned on the show, the inverted sugar sugar uh the inverted sugars and caramel do suck in moisture.
+
+[34:15] I would advise to serve quickly or keep in your dehydrator. Um there you go. Update on uh whether or not what we say makes any sense. Uh he also says, I appreciate your thoughts that caramel taste can come from cooked milk salads. It might get some milk powder and toast and brown it or cook it in the oven in butter, as per uh ideas in food blog post from 2008 on that and then see how it goes.
+
+[34:34] Uh and then as a side note, he gives us an article on uh on like the scientific article on pizza cheese. What do you what are your needs in a pizza cheese? Do you like blistered bubbles on your pizza cheese? Is it important to you? No.
+
+[34:45] Apparently it's very important. If you look up, here is the recipe for perfectly brown pizza cheese as established by science. It's good interesting, it's really interesting reading for those of you out there that are interested in uh why certain cheeses uh you know bubble and boil not, and I'll give you the short answer. It has to have some fat, but not that much, and fairly high moisture as well as being elastic and cohesive. AKA mozzarella.
+
+[35:07] But you know, hit you know, Stan's question was: could you use like a modernist cuisine style emulsifying salt technique to make a cheese that acted like that that had a different flavor? And I think quite certainly the answer is yes. Just have to get the fat content right. And in fact, they hint at this in the article, get the fat content right, increase the the stretchiness of it by with proper emulsifying salts, but not enough to make it like melt out totally. And then uh and then just make sure you have enough water multiple should work.
+
+[35:32] Yes? Yes? So we have one caller that we can squeeze in before the show ends. All right, caller. Well, we have more than one that we can't squeeze in?
+
+[35:39] No, but I don't think we have time for one call. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Brian here in New York. How are you? Doing all right, what's up?
+
+[35:47] Good. Um I just want to say thanks for all your uh information on ice cream recently, but I haven't had a chance to implement it. Um in part because um I recently got an allergic reaction and had to go through battery of all kinds of allergy tests. Oh my god, did they do the did they do the armprick? If you look at a pancake syndrome, which is dust mite.
+
+[36:13] Dust mites getting into flower flowery, powdery substances if if uh if if it's got uh heat or or um humidity. So, you know, here in the New York weather that that might be a cause. So now uh based on this, and the reason it's called pancake syndrome is those people who, you know, put some uh pancake mix in the back of their cupboard and every you know uh every six months bring it out to make pancakes, you know, sometimes come down with the allergic reaction in which they've digested dust mites uh unknowingly and uh therefore um come down with the reaction. So um one of the things is is um got rid of lots of my flowers and now the recommendation from the doctor is to keep it all in the fridge or the freezer. And so what I'm wondering is uh with flowers and sort of powdery stuff, is there any consequence to keeping these items in the um in the cold in the fridge or the freezer?
+
+[37:16] Okay, I got some answers for you on this. But here's here let me ask you a couple questions first. The test that they did were they were they uh were they bioassays or do they do skin prick tests? Both. I freaking hate skin prick tests.
+
+[37:29] Let me tell you something. Like, I am like, you know, a pasty white, like northern European mutt, right? And so like for those of you that aren't pasty white, like, you know, pasty white people have very sensitive skin. And so it looked like I was allergic to every dang thing on the skin test just because that little like that little freaking thing that they scrape into your arm, like that gives me a freaking reaction. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:54] I hate that test. I think it's completely inaccurate and crappy. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I mean I'm I I'm I'm I'm I'm not as tasty as you, but uh I definitely got some bumps and stuff from from all that.
+
+[38:09] But then they they verified it with like an actual kind of like bioassay. They yeah, they drew some blood, so yeah. That I believe. Like those things I believe. But back when I developed my cherry allergy, they didn't really have all that crap yet.
+
+[38:22] So like literally they were like, oh, you're allergic to lobster, you're allergic to I'm like, n what? I'm allergic to getting jabbed in the freaking arm, lady. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, okay. And I love the story about the the pancake things, uh, pan pancake syndrome.
+
+[38:36] Stas, do you ever got pancake syndrome? Yeah, yeah, look it up, pancake syndrome. And my other question before I answer uh your question is is it that the that you're directly allergic to the mites, or is it that the mites trigger a reaction that now you can have even without the mites? It's the that you're directly allergic to the mites. Possibly.
+
+[38:54] It's it's the it's the m the mites, you know. But it it it's that you know, if you if you it's one thing if you know you're breathing it and they you know might be uh might be you know on your bed or something like that or around your house. But if they're getting into something that you eat and then you're eating them, then it's a higher concentration. Uh and and and that's uh that's the problem. All right, so I lied, I have some more questions.
+
+[39:19] Yeah, no, it's it's smoking pot versus uh, you know, eating it. Or or oh no, I thought you were gonna say Bill Clintoning it, like but they're not inhaling. But the uh so here's my other here's my my other question which just came into my head. What about cheese mites or like the mites on meat like uh on like ha ham mites and stuff like that? Are those do they do those cross over or is it only flour mites?
+
+[39:41] I have no idea. I didn't even I didn't they they told me dust mites, uh the the allergist, but you know, I don't know if they can test for all those kind of uh uh different different variables. You know, they can't test for everything. Right. But how bad's the reaction?
+
+[39:57] Is it hospital reaction? I mean they said it was severe reaction, yeah. So it's hospital. So like what I would do is like the next time you go into uh talk to the allergist, I would stop by, you know, a cheese shop like Murray's or something and get or whatever, and get like a like a like a really mighty cheese that has you know some rind on it. Don't eat it on your own.
+
+[40:19] You know what I mean? But like when you're in a challenge test situation with your doctor, just or unless they know. Like you do a search of literature and they say no, cheese mites aren't a problem. But uh, you know, get get some of that to you know just so that you can know for a fact whether that's gonna be a problem or not. Because I'm just curious.
+
+[40:34] You know, I mean this is probably a known thing, but I just wonder how kind of how specific it is to a sp specific kind of mite. And also, you know, if you've ever stored um hams, uh you know, dry aged hams, which we're doing ham tasting next week, um the uh they also can have uh mites and you'll see like a dusty powderiness that's underneath the hams if you've been hanging them depending on kind of what's around. You want to make sure that you're not allergic to to that kind of stuff too if you like you know long cured meat products or if you like like cheeses. Just something just something to check out. Um I've also found that a you know a lot of times you know uh a doctor won't necessarily like think to tell you that they might know it or they might not know it, but either way I would check uh before you have to stab yourself in an epi pen and go to the hospital just for eating something.
+
+[41:18] You know what I mean? Um Yeah I gotta carry that epic epi pen now. No I know it sucks. And y you know they expire every whatever it is and you have to get a new one and you know what the thing is though dude I don't know how bad uh off you are but uh a lot of times I've had kind of mild reactions start and I always carry with me Benadryl. And so uh and you know I don't know if they still make it but the last time I bought it they uh they used to make like Benadryl and like Listerine strips it gets into your system extremely quickly.
+
+[41:43] Unfortunately you can't do it if you have to drive home or whatever because it knock you know it makes you super drowsy and knocks you out. And I also feel very strongly that Benadryl destroys my sense of taste for hours. So you know you don't want to have to take it. You know it's I don't take it lightly but it's a lot you know because once you stab yourself at the epi pen, you have to go to the hospital. I mean that's basically it.
+
+[42:03] But if you uh you know if you just uh slight you know if if you if all you're doing is taking Benadryl and you self-monitor for a little while as long as there's someone there with you, you know, uh I don't feel the need to you know go to the ER it you know because you can start well I don't know what you have but with me my throat closes up and so you can kind of feel when the reaction is happening. Anyways uh now to answer your question do not store it in the fridge and the reason not because you don't that you don't want to store it in the fridge is there's a a boatload of condensation that can happen especially if the thing or freezer. Yeah freezer yes so that's what I was gonna store it in the fridge store it in the freezer. So I buy uh quite often a couple of brands of uh shapati flour and other kind of like uh whole grain soft uh uh Indian flowers because I like them uh in pancakes actually uh and in biscuits because of the flavor that they have but the brands that I buy almost always have uh larva in them that hatch and so eventually they'll get buggy and if you've seen like a flower that has that kind of stuff it gets kind of little ropey threads in it and then if you look closely you can see kind of stuff that's there and then you have to sift everything sucks. And uh so for years like uh and I don't do it with you know gold brand or anything like you know I use heckers actually but you know uh with those because I've never had a problem with those but I store uh all of those kinds of specialty flowers in the freezer always and um and they're fine they're fine uh you know I I what I do is I wrap them I put them in zips and I get rid of all of the uh air in the zip so that there's not a lot of you know um uh you know when if moisture does get in the fridge it doesn't condense an ice cleform on the flour I've never had a problem with it clumping uh I've never had any uh degradation of the quality you you know it's it's been it's been fine.
+
+[43:46] So zippies zippies work, not like mason jars that are that are fully sealed. Well you actually in a mason jar you s you have more air because you can't compress them down. I usually keep them in their sack and then put the sack in a zippy, roll the sa and then compress it down and then get rid of it. Because you actually can get more air out of it that way. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[44:07] Now but here's here's the uh I had I had a caveat. Oh yeah. One caveat to remember is that it like I don't know what you're making with it, but it's gonna throw off all of your temperatures. So you know if you're used to things hydrating in a specific amount of time or if you're doing um you know mixing of breads or anything like this, just be aware that you're you know it's not that it has that much thermal energy compared to the water that you're adding or milk or whatever. But if you have a recipe it's uh that where the temperature of the batter uh or whatever or in in yeast on a bread is is uh is critical that you might just need to adjust it a little bit or let the stuff that you're gonna use come up to temperature.
+
+[44:48] But I haven't had any problems and but you know like I say that stuff I mainly use for biscuits and pancakes so I hope that helps. Great. Great yeah yeah yeah I'm I'm I'm I think by I I might need to get another freezer because uh I don't I don't have enough room for everything that a lot of stick in there you know I gotta put my my Mothra in there I gotta put my uh I gotta put all my my my baking flours I gotta put uh you know all the different uh you know different stuff in there yeah well I mean the thing is if you're gonna if you're gonna use the stuff right away if you're gonna use the stuff I mean it depends on how long you're gonna store the stuff too right here's another thing that is true. Once you get, and I know this for a fact with with uh hams, right? Once you get uh m like a mite there, I mean, like for most of us it's totally harmless, and it's like they're just there.
+
+[45:41] It's not because it's not like a hygiene thing, whatever. You know what I'm saying? It's just they're there. But once they're there, like I know with ham, like you cannot have a ham for like it seems like eight billion years, and then all of a sudden you get another ham in and all of a sudden they're back. So I don't know whether you're gonna have a problem where you need to kind of de decontaminate your pantry somehow, and I don't really know how to do that to kill them all.
+
+[46:03] But I mean it might be a situation where you only have to store your long held stuff. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? You also might be able to if it's freezer space is an option, most of these things probably can't grow in a hardcore vacuum atmosphere. So then if you want to go to a uh food saver situation, you might be able to vacuum pack your flowers, uh, not in a bag because that'll compress the hell out of them and a lot of sifting work for you to do.
+
+[46:32] But like in a hard container, like a vacuum pack, might be able to uh reduce their ability to uh re to reproduce. I don't know. I'm just I'm just saying this is a possibility that I'm thinking of off the top of my head, and it might be easier for you to do dry storage of you know vacuumed containers. You just have to make sure that the vacuum is being maintained maintained over over a long period of time. Or you could just take small samples and vacuum down hard in bags and then just deal with the sifting.
+
+[47:01] Because I've done that before on on certain things, but just be careful when you're vacuuming uh powders, if you use a strong vacuum to vacuum powders, you can uh I don't know, it's like I've like when you're when you're dumping powders into bags, you can aspirate them, and if you're having a problem, if there's already some mites present, you don't want to be aspirating a lot of this stuff when you're baking or cooking. That's another point I might want to make is that your allergist might not be a cook, and so they might not think about the difference between uh cooking with something and and consuming it. So you you might want to be extra special careful when you're working with flowers not to not to cause a lot of you know uh aspirated particles. Like you like we've all done it where we fire up the kitchen aid a little bit too fast and it goes whap whap whap and throws a floof of flour up in the air. That might be a little more hardcore for you at this point than it would have been like a year ago.
+
+[47:53] And so you might want to also take care when you're doing that just to minimize your exposure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, uh gotta get that other freezer because you know, I got my I gotta put the hydrocolloids in there, and I'm not sure, you know, what's gonna grow in in in what for sure. Or or you know, paprika and you know, uh, you know, ground spices.
+
+[48:19] I mean, I try to grind as much from fresh, but uh you know. Yeah, well, I don't know. Do they grow in that stuff? Well, again, you're gonna have to experiment, but like why don't you get back to us and let us know uh let us know what happened because I'm interested to uh to hear uh what happens, especially Ari the cheese and stuff like that. Alrighty?
+
+[48:36] Yeah, sounds good. Alrighty, good luck with it. All right, so Jack is ripped gonna rip me off the air uh in a second. So here are the questions I didn't get to, and I'll get to them. Adam Rogers, the uh uh the author of Proof, good book, uh wants to know uh like how high I have to pour liquid nitrogen above your head to to have it uh you know evaporate before it kills you.
+
+[48:56] Maybe we'll get to that next time. Have a question about fennel from uh Michael wants to know uh if we can make it taste more well anyway, we'll deal with that next week. Uh on uh Keel Clayburgh wrote in about custard. Uh I have answers on that, but we'll have to wait for next week. And also uh a request that we get uh one of the Mamafuku uh uh what's it called fermentation experts in on the show.
+
+[49:19] We should do that sometime. All right. And a question which would have been perfect after this flower thing from Sam on the uh Autolise uh step of uh of bread baking by uh you know which popularized by Raymond Calvell, famous bread guy. Again, we'll have to get to that next week. This has been Cooking Issues.
+
+[49:38] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit.
+
+[50:02] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:28] Lady me and baby dogs playing to the call, the cops call us the California honey drops. A little young a little whole with a little bit of soul. Here's a little something you ain't heard before. We played on the street, we made a little coin, built the time machine, and picked up Mr. Boyne.
+
+[0:46] Everybody's having fun, and we only just begun, we gon' party till the morning come. Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Wilma Jean restaurant, serving delicious fried chicken and other Southern Comfort Food Classics, plus great burgers located at 345 Smith Street. For more information, visit Wilma Gene 345.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:29] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. A little bit later. As later as we can push it, you see, we get kicked out of here because you know, we got people coming in. They gotta get ready for their program, all this other stuff, so we get Heidi Hoed out. Sometime around 1250, somewhere in that.
+
+[2:03] In that general region, calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[2:13] Yeah, I haven't seen you a while because I was in the Chicago. Mm-hmm. Yeah, nice. How you been? Fine.
+
+[2:17] Oh, I that was not the You didn't see it. You know how like when someone asks you something and you're about to say something and your lips close and your mouth inflates like you're about to say something, and then you're like she's about to say not fine. Yeah, shake shake it off. And then say fine. Like yeah, fine.
+
+[2:34] That's what that's a yeah, just for you if you can get that visual image. And Jack Insley, Insley, Insley in the booth. How you doing? I'm great. That was awesome.
+
+[2:44] Um how did you like the hams? Oh, the hands are delicious. Yeah, we did a handsome. It was Wednesday, it was the Wednesday. Uh so you know, last week we were at Harvard, uh, which is why we didn't do the show, unfortunately.
+
+[2:56] We wanted to, but the problem is it's scheduled for right before, and uh so I couldn't. Anyways. Uh so uh Sam Edwards, who, as well as Edwards and Sons, is uh sometime sponsor of our program, uh, and of the radio show radio uh network in general is a is a you know a well-known uh sponsor. Uh set up along with Patrick uh Martins the uh uh a ham tasting, which is actually like a very expanded new version of you know something that I think he's done a couple of times, and I did once in 2004, showcasing American uh country hams tasted side by side with uh their European uh counterparts. I had a lot of interesting people there.
+
+[3:35] How many did we taste, Jack? Like 14 or something? I think it was like 20. Twenty. It was a lot.
+
+[3:39] It was a lot of things. I made it to about fourteen or fifteen. I ate m I f ate fistfuls of ham more than other people did because that's just how I rolled. But the next day, I was like, uh I was like, oh that's my I need water. That night, that night is that was like that.
+
+[3:57] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my god. Oh my geez. And uh some interesting uh Virginia apple cider from uh that was good.
+
+[4:04] But anyway, but so is there a write-up of this whole thing somewhere on the on the uh Heritage Radio uh archive? I'll I'll post it on Twitter. Uh some information. I don't know. Yeah, but go check it out just because like I I could sit here and go, you know, blow by blow, but you know, I think Stas, you were there.
+
+[4:17] What do you think? Uh I thought it was good. I didn't say a woman of many woods. It was good. Yeah, anyways.
+
+[4:25] Uh a lot of interesting hams, including one of the interesting developments over the past oh eight, nine, ten years is uh American uh ham producers using uh controlling the feed of the animals. So we had some uh acorn fed uh American not acorn fed uh peanut fed American uh hogs and some other interesting stuff. So uh very interesting tasting. Uh I have Michael Macken on the line too as well. Oh, yeah?
+
+[4:49] All right, hey Michael, what's up? Hey Dave. Can you hear me? Yeah, what's going on? Awesome, man.
+
+[4:55] Hey, uh called to give you a hard time. Uh okay. Let me guess. Okay, so uh, you know the person who had the dust mite allergy, and you were talking to them about how uh when you start to feel a reaction coming out, a lot of times you'll just take some Benadryl and see what happens. At least for me, that's true.
+
+[5:10] Yeah, yeah. So I I have some experience with this too much, in fact, because my wife has an anaphlactic reaction to peanuts and tree nuts, and I I've been to the ER with her probably 15 times in the past ten years. Because restaurants are really shitty about knowing what they have nuts in, unfortunately. Right, right. But uh she's been this sort of the same advanced.
+
+[5:30] Like she's been having these reactions since she was a little kid and she's gotten pretty casual about 'em and would often just take some Benadryl and kind of wait and see what happens, and you know, maybe we'll go in and maybe we alone. And then uh just last year there was a uh 13-year-old girl at a camp that it was in New Jersey or something like that, who did exactly that. She's been having reactions her whole life. She kind of knew how strong they were or weren't. I had a rice crispy bar that turned out to have peanuts in it, took some Benadryl, thought she was fine, went to bed, and never woke up.
+
+[5:56] Oh my God. So it's it really is as tempting as it is to become casual about it. What can actually it it like one reaction can just get out of control and you don't even know, and it's not even necessarily dose specific or whatever. So you really should just always use that epithet and go in. Sucks.
+
+[6:13] Yeah, it does. Yeah, that sucks. Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess that's true, and s my reactions could get worse, and I guess I wouldn't know it either. I mean, I've never had luckily for me, it's simply that my throat closes up.
+
+[6:24] It's not that um it's not that I go into full body shutdown, you know, or uh or you know, but yeah, no, that's ex ac excellent, excellent advice and very sobering. Any good news to give me, Michael? Good news, uh yeah, we're having all types of fun back here in Seattle. Yeah, come see us. Oh, next time uh, you know, I need some reason.
+
+[6:45] Maybe maybe the book tour will send me out that way. Who knows? That's right, yeah. I ordered my book and also Lorraine, the uh social media person here at Chef Steps has told me she ordered a book for our in-house library. So we are excited to see the cocktail book, man.
+
+[6:57] Oh, nice. Hey, speaking of in-house library, did you hear that food arts closed? Sad. Sid, you know, you know food close food arts Magazine, which was kind of like, you know, uh, it's actually my first yeah, my what made you think of it was in-house library. This morning, when I heard they closed down, like they had a huge because they were sent every advanced cookbook, you know, advanced copies of cookbooks for reviews for the past probably, yeah, for the past like thirty years.
+
+[7:20] And uh I used to go into their uh their conference room was uh the library where all their stuff was, and this morning I've been thinking about how kind of sad it was because Michael Batterbury, you know, and Ariane, the two founders of it, uh they got me my first job in food. And um uh and they've been very helpful for you know, millions of people, not millions, but many people like Patrick, for instance. And uh, and I was just thinking this morning when I got up, I was like, I wonder what's happened to all those books. I hope they're donating them to some, you know, library or culinary school or something like that, because it's an amazing connection I had, yeah. Maybe you better get over there.
+
+[7:52] You could put a you know library wallet booker and docs. Well, I would feel I would feel a little bit mercenary being like, oh hey, and your books, you know what I mean? That's something that's that's something that Nastasha would accuse me of doing, right? She like Nastasia likes to think of me as this kind of just evil person, so she would that's how she would hope that I would do. She like thinks of me that way, right, Stas?
+
+[8:11] Yes. Well, you you distract them and Nastasha can make off of the books on the dollar. Wow, now Michael's calling you uh Stas is like the sneak thief. That's kind of right though. I guess the more you know her, the more she's a sneak thief.
+
+[8:21] Well, anyway, well, thanks for that word of caution, because I definitely don't want to be responsible for someone not going into the hospital when they should. And it is true that these things, your severity can change at any time, correct? Yeah, that that seems to be the truth. Sad the truth. Yeah, someday the doctors will figure this out and kick we'll kick the whole dang thing.
+
+[8:42] You know, they're doing a lot of really interesting work on where they sensitized you with absolutely microdoses over a long period of time, and and they can at least get you to the point where you don't die. Yeah, I mean, McGee's gonna keeps on saying he's gonna work on that with because he's shellfish allergies, and he's gonna he's keeps on saying he's gonna work on it. I mean, mine are so you know specific and mild that I don't think it's worth you know messing with. Um but if I had something as pervasive and dangerous as a nut allergy, maybe I'd give it a shot. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:09] Yeah, I suppose you don't really run into cherries randomly being in things, huh? Yeah, no, not so much. I mean, at certain times of year I do, and then if they're cooked, it's fine, unlike you know, peanuts, which don't appear to be destroyed by the processing. No, not at all. Yeah, like a c I've had cooked cherries and not died, you know, so so that's uh that's good.
+
+[9:27] And again, like I say, for me it's like a you know, it's fairly mild, it's just like the throat closing, which is only not mild because you can't breathe anymore and you need the oxygen, but it's not the you know what I'm saying. It's like you need the oxygen, but other than that, I'm fine. Yeah, to me the the throat closing doesn't sound mild. I'd be I'd be upset if my throat was closed, but uh I I hear you that you you feel comfortable, so that's good. Yeah, well people would think it's people think it's hilarious because I have like a sweet, sweet Donald Duck voice when it happens.
+
+[9:52] I sound just like Donald Duck until just before it starts to fully close up. So it's it's an amusing way to go for other people. Well, uh let's uh let's keep you around for a few more years if possible. All right, thanks, brother. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[10:06] All right, buddy. Take care. Thanks. Hey, Jack, do you have a reverb button over there? Yes.
+
+[10:11] Sweet, keep it on for a second. We're doing a new session called Cooking Issue Shout outs. Uh yes, uh, that's it. That's all I needed. Uh we have some shout-outs that we have to do.
+
+[10:20] Uh we gotta use that more often. We gotta do like a monster. Can we announce like a monster truck rally? Yeah, yeah, just give me the heads up. And we'll do the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday for all of those who do they have those stuff, do they have Sunday, Sunday, Sunday in California?
+
+[10:32] I don't remember. I mean, and it's been too long. You don't well, you would remember. I would remember me. Sunday.
+
+[10:38] We gotta do it. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. No, no, you don't remember that? No. Jack, you remember that, right?
+
+[10:45] Yeah, of course. Yeah, okay. Uh anyway, that's when monster truck rallies always are. They're on Sundays. Yeah, I'm saying I've heard them.
+
+[10:51] I don't think that they were in California. You know, there's two kinds of monster truck rallies. Well, there's probably a billion now, but when I was a kid, there's there's two kinds. I went to the wrong kind. Like there's the one with the monster trucks that drive over things and crush things, and that's what everyone wants to see, right?
+
+[11:06] And then there's ones where they just pull crap. And that's the one I went to. And then there's also the demolition derbies where a bunch of beat up crappy cars just like crash into each other. Do you know I've never seen one and it's kind of like a dream. Really?
+
+[11:17] I would love to see. I mean, they just they still do the same thing that I knew I used to know about. They used to f they fill the doors with concrete and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So sweet, so sweet.
+
+[11:32] Anyway, uh, okay. So uh our shout out back to our shout outs. Our good buddy Daniel Rosenberg, who uh you know, I don't know his exact title over there. I don't know. He's at the Harvard, and he's in the there's a building over there called the Science Center, which is kind of cool because they have all the sciences are in there and they have a demonstration services thing, and Daniel's the guy there, you know, and so we're we go there all the time, and he has control over all the sweet, sweet, sweet demos that all of the science classes have uh at Harvard.
+
+[12:02] There's like one or two like you know, moron programs at Harvard that don't use the science building, and I'm sure they feel incredibly weak and stupid because they don't have Daniel doing their sweet sweet demos because he can set up he can set up anything. You're like, hey, I want to throw some uh some sodium into some water and like you know, have it explode. He's like, gotcha covered. Remember that when he did that for us? Oh so sweet, so awesome.
+
+[12:24] Uh he was a little mad at us last year when we didn't give him the information for the demo we were gonna do, and then set off the fire alarm and cleared out the building. But he's over it now. He's he's he's not angry with us anymore about that, right, Stas? Not angry with you anymore. Anyway, uh, so saw him last week at the at the Harvard, and he wanted to give us a shout out because he's working with the uh with the Ig Nobel, you know, familiar with the Ig Nobel Prizes?
+
+[12:46] It's like Nobel but ignoble. Yeah, yeah. So the Ig Nobel Prize ceremony. Uh he's involved with it this year, and it's kind of cool. Like they give they give out awards to kind of non-consequential but cool science kind of things or cool and like so.
+
+[12:58] What you want to do is go see and he this year it's food theme. He has some food theme stuff. So he's doing some like crazy dumb s'more stuff on the uh on this uh promo video, which you should watch, and uh and you should watch the uh live uh webcast that they're gonna have because this uh I don't know the day. Jack, could you look up the date? September 18th.
+
+[13:18] It's September 18th. There's a live uh webcast. Uh it is the 24th first international Ig Nobel Prize ceremony. Every year it's always the first, like it's the 20th, whatever, like 27th. Anyway, uh go look at it on Improbable.com.
+
+[13:33] Uh check out his 30-second promo for the Ig Nobel Prize ceremony and check it out. One of the things they have that you might find interesting, they have these things called 24-7 lectures, where they get very eminent uh scientists, they come in and the the thing is they have to explain in technical terms, explain, give a full technical explanation of their field in 24 seconds. Yeah. And then a seven word summary of what they do uh that is understandable by any uh layperson. Completely understandable by any lay person.
+
+[14:03] So what this actually boils down to is people start trying to explain what's going on, and in 27 seconds they get to blow a very loud like coach whistle in the ear of extremely eminent scientists, and then but sometimes they come up with like really amazing definitions. Like I forget what her name uh was, but uh uh some well known biologist came up with like the most awesome uh definition of biology ever, and it goes like this. If it gets infected, it's biology. There it is, biology, seven words. Sweet.
+
+[14:31] Anyways, uh second shout out. Uh Greg Mueller, uh, I guess it's Mueller, right? Because M U, like Mueller, like with an umlaut, but I don't know if once you're in America whether they just go with Muller. What do you think? Mueller.
+
+[14:42] Anyway, uh wrote in. Uh how about a shout out? We are doing an event in Lyon in January uh with uh chef George Castaneda, and it's called the Catering Cup, uh, International Catering Cup, another ICC, another freaking ICC, International Culinary Center, International Chef Conference, uh, International Culinary Cup, uh catering cup. Anyways, uh, it's kind of cool. It's uh it's a competition, and this is the first year, it's every two years, I think, and this is the first year that the uh Americans are competing.
+
+[15:11] In fact, so new that the Weasels up at International Catering Cup.com uh didn't put the American team on their page yet, but we're there, America. We're going. So you should uh check it out and support it. Uh catering cup.com forward slash English. And the the shtick is this each team must prepare the same dishes.
+
+[15:30] Uh this year it's 100% duck pate en cruit uh and exotic fruit chutney, a whole stuffed uh whole trout stuffed with cod and scallops with a cold emulsion sauce, an item made from three types of pork that's so much less specific than the other ones. Hey, I want you I want a freaking I want a trout stuffed with cod and scallops, and then uh you know, three kinds of pork. Like, what is that? That's nuts, French. Uh, and a dessert using dark chocolate tartlets, Victoria pineapple.
+
+[15:55] What is a Victoria pineapple? Don't know. Don't know. Uh, coconut and lime. So uh check out uh catering cup.com forward slash English.
+
+[16:05] And if you happen to be, it's not slash English, slash E N. And if you happen to be American, vote for us. And you can't really vote. It's like one of those things where they where they test you on like like uh first of all taste and second of all presentation. I don't know which one's first.
+
+[16:18] Hopefully it's taste. And then like, you know, cleanliness and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know whether they judge you on your spiel or not. That's the way cocktail uh competitions are they just judge you on spiels. Spiels.
+
+[16:27] Speaking of uh cocktails, just got back from uh the uh from Chicago, like I said, was doing um mod Mex with uh Rick Bayless who set up this thing called Mod Max, which is I guess modern Mexican, where they get some Mexicans, some people Americans doing Mexican stuff, and then just some knuckleheads like me going over there and working with Mexican ingredients and kind of talking about how these ingredients and or techniques have place in modern um you know, modern kitchens. Interesting, not modern necessarily meaning kind of like what we do, but just kind of like contemporary. Uh had uh some really interesting stuff over there, was at Frontera and uh Topolobambo and had uh delicious banana leaf ice cream. It's good. It's like almost like it was delicious anyway.
+
+[17:06] Uh I don't know, oh, and I also got to go to Aviary, but I don't really have time to talk about uh going to Aviary uh had a lot of cocktails. I'm not able to finish them all because of just so many cocktails. And it's and it's a sign, I think, of how adult I've become that did not even attempt to finish all the cocktails. Well that's Damon Bolti's like number one piece of advice when you go to a cocktail event. He said, never ever finish a cocktail.
+
+[17:27] Even Damon Bolti says that. Yeah, I mean, those of you who don't personally know Damon Bolti, let me just say the man knows how to squirrel away some liquor inside of himself. So uh, right? Mm-hmm. Right?
+
+[17:40] And and he's one of those freaking like culinary twins here in uh what is his brother Deuce does? Rolling Stone or Spin Magazine? Writer? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, so he's at least at least only one half of the twins are in uh culinary stuff here, but there's like so many culinary twins, and then when you see like the one and you don't know it's the other here, I can think of like four or five sets of twins here in uh in the New York area.
+
+[18:07] It freaks me out. I mean, whatever, it's not his fault. Right? Anyway. Uh okay.
+
+[18:12] Uh Kyle Payton wrote in, says, Can I get more information on the bottle style carbonation setup you have for home seltzer? Uh oh or not, I I have I have an actual inline carbonator. Well, Rudy Tutie for me. But uh if you want to do bottle style carbonation, which in the end is much more um what's the word I'm looking for? Much uh m more economical than using a soda stream, right?
+
+[18:35] I mean it's a little more of a pain in the butt, but it's much more uh economical. It you what you need is you need a a CO2 tank. Now it depends on how your counters are. Some people can fit a full 20-pound CO2 tank under their uh counter. Uh if you can't, right, like I can't because mine goes underneath where my sink is, and so it just doesn't clear.
+
+[18:54] But most of you can if you have a full cabinet depth that you can fit it in. Remember to strap it down, you don't want to have it fall over it. Don't keep a lot of CO2 tanks because if one breaks, you don't want it to asphyxiate you by opening the stuff up, but yada yada yada yada yada. Anyways, you can get a twenty pounder, you can get a uh a five pounder, which is a lot smaller, but there's a little known uh and little used uh ten pound unit. So what I recommend is going to Mark Powers, uh who they're in Guntersville, Alabama, and they can sell you, they have the best price on like the regulators, the hoses, and the fittings.
+
+[19:23] So all you need is a and they'll sell you an empty tank and you get it refilled at a welding supply shop in your area. And you can usually just drive if you you live in the suburbs, you can drive your uh in the trunk, put your in a trunk drive in and swap them out and it's relatively inexpensive. You know, it everything depends on where you live, but a 20 pound CO2 tank can do like 400 gallons of seltzer and cost less than 20 dollars okay to swap out. So you get your empty tank, you own a high pressure regulator, one that they because the lower pressure ones that are made for beer don't go quite high enough, especially if you're going to use things like cocktails. You need to also buy you don't need it but I would highly recommend buying what's called a regulator cage and it's a metal thing that goes around your regulator so that the gauges don't get smashed.
+
+[20:04] You can buy very expensive gauges uh that they kind of don't get smashed but in general they're hundreds of dollars whereas the regulator I buy is more like thirty dollars it's a tap right and it's very cheap because it's made to you know be used by every person who has like a brew uh you know a beer set up in their in their restaurant so they sell eight bajillion of them and they're consequently fairly cheap. They're not quite as accurate maybe but you probably don't care. What you do care is that they're not they're fairly fragile. So I would get those cages uh that you just bolt onto the back I would also buy uh an extra plastic washer for the high pressure CO2 washer and the reason the tank washer and the reason is there's a little um there's a usually a little rubber thingamajiggy on the regulator that seals with the high pressure on the CO2 uh tank but sometimes this can degrade and if you have one of the plastic white things zip tied to your regulator at all times then no matter what happens you are able to seal your tank properly and you're good. So I'll get one of those and then uh use a a bunch of uh flex hose.
+
+[21:02] I use one quarter uh beverage hose, which is um re-it's like braided reinforced polyethylene hosing. That stuff never breaks. Uh the stuff that people will sell that's more flexible, they consider better for carbonating because it's not as stiff. I've seen break a bunch of times, the unreinforced stuff, like the red specifically uh tubing that people sell, so I'd stay away from that. And there's a hose barb uh fitting that goes on, and you want there's a little uh flare, it's a flare fitting, uh flare CO2 washer, and then I would take it directly to a barbed uh uh gas fitting, which is great, the gray fitting from a beverage uh from a ball lock connector or the old stuff, and you can get this all from Mark Power.
+
+[21:38] Uh and you want some clamps that clamp down on it. You can use a little hand hose clamps that screw down, but I hate them. I hate them. I don't use them. I use uh what we're called Odoker clamps, which are little uh little things that crimp down and have ears and they never come off and they don't cut my hands, and I don't hate them like I hate the other ones.
+
+[21:54] But if you're only making one rig, just use the ones that I hate that have a little screw, but man, I hate them. And uh after that, that's everything you need except for the carbonator cap, which you can get on Amazon.com. It's called liquid bread, is the corporation that makes it the carbonator cap, and some soda bottles, which you can save. Make sure that the uh liquid is extremely cold. Uh you can even throw a couple, smash a couple small chunks of ice into the bottle when you're carbonating, because carbonating raises the temperature of the uh of the stuff slightly.
+
+[22:18] Uh makes so it's ice cold. You can even have some ice in the bottle. Uh fill it two-thirds to three quarters with water three-quarters of the way through, fill, squeeze uh all the air out, screw the carbonator cap on, carbonate it at like 35, depending on 40 psi. Don't turn it upside down because there's no check valve in this system. You don't want water rolling in.
+
+[22:36] Shake it, vent it once, shake it again, throw it in your fridge, and sell surf for days. What do you think? Yeah. Okay. Uh about a quick break.
+
+[22:45] Yeah. Ooh, okay, quick break. Coming back with cooking issues. So today's episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by the restaurant Wilma Jean, serving delicious fried chicken and other Southern Food Comfort Classics. Great burgers, too.
+
+[23:38] They're located at 345 Smith Street. And these are the people behind Searsucker and Nightingale Nine. So again, that's Wilma Jean. Wilma Jean345.com. One more announcement.
+
+[23:55] We've got a great event, The Silver Snail, 25 Years of Slow Food, will be hosted by Slow Food USA Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizza. It's been 25 years since Carlo Petrini and a group of activists launched a peaceful revolution to defend regional traditions, good food, gastronomic pleasure, and a slow pace of life. The Slow Food Movement has since evolved into a comprehensive approach to food that recognizes the strong connections between plate, planet, people, politics, and culture. Today this movement involves thousands of projects and millions of people in more than 160 countries worldwide. Join us for a dialogue between Slow Foods founder Carlo Petrini and Locavore activist Alice Waters as they reflect on the evolution of the food movement and all things slow.
+
+[24:39] That's Friday, October 3rd, from 11 30 to 2 30 p.m. at Roberta's. You know what's weak, Jack? You have all those peas, and then you had to throw in culture. I know.
+
+[24:44] You had all those freaking peas. Give me those give me the peas again. Plate, planet, people, politics, and culture. Yeah, what the hell? There's no word for culture to start with a P.
+
+[25:01] I mean, you should either change some of the other ones so you don't have all the P's, and then you're like, oh, sweet, this dude's only using Ps. You know what I mean? And then it's like I mean, I would even like I would even just be like, and Pulture. Planet, people, politics, and Petrini. Oh, yeah, you got Petrini working with people, planets, what people, planets, plates, politics.
+
+[25:20] Culture. Pulture. Right? I mean, just do it. See what people say.
+
+[25:25] I mean, like, you need to see. It's like this, I mean you need the P. The C just is not working for you, bro. I don't know. Anyway, maybe I'm wrong.
+
+[25:32] I could be wrong. I've got a caller on the line. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. How you doing?
+
+[25:39] Good. How are you? All right. I have a question about the fears all and changing my shipping address because I'm moving um to a new address since I since I funded on the Kickstarter. Okay, where are you in the US or you abroad?
+
+[25:52] Yeah, US. Okay. Amazon already has all of the addresses. We've shipped all the addresses like to Amazon. Uh we might be able to still change it though, is that true?
+
+[26:04] Yeah, we can change it. Yeah, but Amazon already has all the addresses and all of the all of the Sears alls have been built. There might still be time if you e email uh the cooking issues, uh email like I'll just email Sears all at BookerInDAX.com. If it goes to your old address, does that mean you're never gonna see it, or is this just more convenient? Um if it goes to the old address in the next two weeks, we're okay.
+
+[26:27] If it if it goes after that, then I'll never see it.com uh and uh and we'll push through email today and we'll push through the change uh with uh Amazon and we'll s we'll send confirmation out because we're gonna send a confirmation email on shipping along with the address. Amazon does. Amazon sends and Amazon's gonna send you an email based, but not everyone s sent us their email. Make sure you we have the email with it so that we can uh add the email to the um not everyone gave us their is that true or is everyone have an email? Everyone has an email, so put it there uh and I can go out, but hurry because they already have all of the all the shipping information.
+
+[27:03] Perfect, and that's Booker and dash A and D. Yeah, A N D D A X. And you know, and again, like they're I'm probably the uh actually Nastasia's probably the most frustrated. Yeah. Yeah, I'm second most frustrated, and then maybe Drew, our partner's third most frustrated.
+
+[27:19] Uh uh but the Sears alls have all been built. And uh I can't I mean I I'm supposed to not really but they they're literally just waiting for a reapproved uh instruction sheet. Uh uh so anyways. Uh they are they're all built and rest assured they are in fact I personally have seen a thousand of them. There's a thousand of them sitting in Booker and Dac's uh lab right now.
+
+[27:46] Anyways, what do you what you st you don't want me to talk about, Stan? Well I'm sure all the New Yorkers will come tear down the walls if they know they're sitting in the lab. Well, don't do that. Uh but anyway, so uh that's the story, and it's uh still possible. And then after everyone gets their everyone gets their fulfillment off of Kickstarter and Shopstarter, because obviously they come first, then the remainder from this shipment are gonna go on to Amazon.
+
+[28:09] Uh but are we good? We can't because it's uh it's media only gets pre-order status. We're not media. Okay. Cool.
+
+[28:17] But anyway, as soon as uh as soon as Amazon then starts shipping them out to uh the fulfillment stuff, then go on Amazon. Hey Hey David, is the book gonna be out at Starchefs, by the way? When when is Starchefs this year? What's that? When is Starchefs?
+
+[28:34] Book comes out uh like first week of November or like November 8th or November 9th. Uh I think it's first week of November, like November 3rd. So if Starchefs is after that, then the book will be out. But I don't know. Oh, it's like the week before.
+
+[28:44] It's like the last week of October. Ow, busted. Come on. I don't know. I'll see I'll see I'll see.
+
+[28:50] They'll they will exist in the in the country, but I don't know whether or not they're allowed to do maybe they are. I'll talk to the publishers. If they're publishers are allowed to do it. Um you know. Yeah, because last year uh Alex Panaki had they look out a week early.
+
+[29:02] Really? Well, uh I know that I don't that might not have been with Norton. I know currently they're doing some work with Norton, which is my publisher, but I don't know whether that book was with Norton. But I'll I'll talk to them because that would be fun, right? Be fun.
+
+[29:14] I'll pick one, I'll pick one up from the bar for you. Uh yeah, yeah. All right, well so we'll see. We'll s I'll I'll see. I'll I'll uh I'll look into it.
+
+[29:19] I'll definitely look into it. Okay, cool. All right, thanks. Thanks a lot. Uh okay.
+
+[29:26] Now, uh had a question in from Andrea. Uh hi there. Um I'm from Germany and listen to your show uh regularly. I have a question regarding baking without eggs. I am not a vegan, but I don't tolerate eggs, and all my attempts at baking cakes have been awful.
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+[29:42] Bunt and sponge cakes turn out extremely moist and heavy and not light and fluffy at all. This might be okay in a fudgy, a fudgy brownie light cake, but I'm looking for a sponge slash siffan cake. It is usually just made with eggs, flour, sugar, and baking powder, uh, and all that can be used for layering cakes with uh and all that can be used for layering cakes with whipping cream or switch rolls, kind of or angel food cake, but with uh the yolks also being used. I've tried various egg replacers, but they don't work well either. Do you have uh any idea and a good recipe for that?
+
+[30:08] Thanks for your help. Uh Andrea, okay. Well, I mean, there's a number of things that eggs do, right? Uh so the yolks provide so if you're looking for like the the tenderness like provision that you get out of things like yolks, right? Then you can add uh, I guess you can just supplement the fat for the fat that's in the egg yolks, and you could probably add some uh emulsifiers like soilethis and something like this, and probably get some of those uh effects.
+
+[30:32] Um but um the other thing that the eggs have in them is protein, which provides uh structure for things like uh angel food cakes and sponge cakes uh as their setting. So it aerates, right, because it can hold air, and then it sits there holding its structure until it's baked, at which point you form an actual interlocked cooked starch and protein network that holds the structure of the cake, you know, until you eat it, right? So the question is how do you uh get around this? So some people try to make uh if you look on the on the internet, which I'm not gonna endorse any of these recipes because I've never made one, but if you look on the internet, some people used uh sweetened condensed milk in uh their uh flourless, I mean sorry, flour uh egless uh sponge cake stuff, presumably because the super uh thick uh structure of that allows the batter to hold uh its uh leavening and structure better as it's baking. So there's what they're fundamentally doing, I would guess, is just increasing the viscosity of their um of their of their batter.
+
+[31:29] There might also be something because of the extra milk protein that's in it. I don't know. They're also jacking the sugar in it, but but whatever. I guess they're reducing the sugar for the rest of the stuff. But that's probably presumably that's an increased viscosity effect, maybe an effect from the protein in the milk, I don't know.
+
+[31:42] Um if you're using an egg replacer, egg replacers, uh, I think I have to look up specifically what kind of egg replacer you're using. There, by the way, is the there's these folks in uh California who are working, and I think there's two separate companies, one of which already has one product, I think, in Whole Foods, but they're working on direct uh egg replacers that that satisfy kind of all of the culinary functions of eggs. I again have never used it, but I know Bill Gates is sponsoring one to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. So you have to wait for that guy to come out. But a lot of times what they're doing is A, they're adding viscosity.
+
+[32:16] Sometimes they're gonna add protein, but probably not usually, and then they're gonna add some sort of holding uh capacity for structure with something like Xanthan, something that forms kind of a um something that can form kind of a a little bit of a uh a gel, like a weak gel, uh, but it's not gonna be like too crazy with uh binding and messing with water. So you can add these kinds of things like heavy xanthan makes it snotty for an egg replacer. But as you say, you haven't had a lot of uh luck with that. I have used in the past, Johnny Azini and I years ago developed a um like a sp like a sponge cake, eggless, uh actually like angel food cake almost, but it ended up being more like a sponge cake that used a product called methylcel uh the methyl cell, which is a uh I think we were using there's two different varieties we were testing, the SG, which is a super gelling series, and the A series. I don't know if we published it.
+
+[33:02] I have to look online for like and he might have published it uh on his own later, but it was uh methyl cell-based uh kind of eggless uh angel food batter that we put through an IS through an EC through a siphon to for aeration. And the main the main thing sh you know shtick with that was is that methyl cell, when you heat it, it sets. It's like one of the few hydrocolloids that as you heat it, it forms a gel uh because it actually loses its ability to be uh to use its loses its solubility and gels out as it's heated. So we would spray it out of an out of an uh an EC whipper of the batter, we'd spray it out into a pan, uh it would be pre-airated, you throw it in an oven, and the heat of the oven, instead of expanding and popping uh uh, you know, the gel, which is what would normally happen in an oven, actually sets the gel. And so you would have these cakes that were set, and then as they cooked, the actual starch in there would be enough to hold this thing together, and then it would um and then it would be fine.
+
+[33:55] The problem with it is is that methyl cell responds poorly to milk. So you want to do a non uh non-mil-based uh recipe if you're gonna if you're gonna do that. Another thing you might want to do, and I've never tried it before, but you take the whatever the water base of the eggs would be for whipping, right, and uh make a a gel and fluid gel with it. The reason I use gel-an is it it doesn't uh break so much. So you then use a gel-an fluid gel, you blend it so it's uh I would do it relatively thick, and then that structure, if you whip it or you know, you have some way to whip it or aerate it beforehand, or even with that will hold its structure as it's as it bakes and won't break.
+
+[34:31] I haven't tried it again, but that's something you might want to try. Another thing thing is you could uh add extra thickening power to it in the form of other viscosity building agents. Um I don't I don't know exactly which one you want to use or what you have access to, but you know, that's in general what people are trying to do. Sorry, I don't have anything more specific. What do you think, Steph?
+
+[34:48] Good. Yeah, all right. Uh boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Um Philip Wolf Right in uh he saw us at the lecture uh last week at the Harvard he wrote in. But uh he had actually interesting thing, one of the things we talked about was that uh McGee and I had and Nils actually had uh done a course where we were cooking octopus after octopus after octopus, and we were trying to disprove the fact that a cork and an octopus makes a difference.
+
+[35:11] But the fact of the matter is is that if you use enough corks, we actually did repeatably get a difference between cork and non-cork cooked octopus, and we didn't know why. Uh and Philip had some interesting things where he had said that he had read something and done some tests where um change in temperature during cooking also affects the texture of octopus. So it's something to look at. But he had some questions. Um, uh, what's the best thing you've ever put uh putting into and gotten out of a rotovap?
+
+[35:38] I think the best thing I've ever done. Um did you ever have the cheese course does? No. The best thing I've ever done uh isn't really a distillation, isn't really about like some fancy distillation. But the best thing was uh we took um port, nice port uh Ruby, and uh distilled it into a port brandy and then threw away the water and then distilled it down to a port syrup that had never been heated.
+
+[36:02] And port syrup that's never been heated is ridiculous, ridiculous, and down to the like like down to about 66 uh bricks, so like maple syrup style, all done, you know, kind of room temperature. We then did the same thing to a um a Madeira, Malmse Madeira, and that syrup also stupid, stupid good. Uh, and then we did it to a bum de Venice, you know, uh dessert wine. Like amazing syrups and and brandies all. Uh, and then took three small glass chilled the brandies, did not well kind of room temp, little little coal, like like white wine temp.
+
+[36:33] Three the three brandies in small tasting cups, and then uh cheese courses. So we did with the um with the uh port, we did stilton cause duh. But then with the stilton syrup, and I forget what we what I paired. We we did a uh garnish as well, but I forget what we did with the garnish on that one. And then we did cheddar, uh, like a really nice like Montgomery was at the time Montgomery was the best cheddar you can get.
+
+[36:58] I don't know if it still is, but it was Montgomery's cheddar uh with the uh momsey uh Madeira, and then that one and the and the syrup, and that one we did with uh flash pickled um flash pickled onions, like red onions, which made cheddar and onions, duh, duh, right? Duh. And then uh we did uh the Bum de Venise. I wish I could remember all the garnishes. One of the garnishes we did, and this might have been with the port, was we did um we did uh pressure cooked uh pars press pressure cooked uh barley with uh coffee.
+
+[37:31] I think it was with that one, maybe anyway. And then with the um bomb de Venise, we did uh a really delicious uh pecorino uh Toscano uh and this syrup, but I forget what the garnish is. We'll have to look it up. But that was good. That was the best thing I ever done in rota vap.
+
+[37:46] And then, you know, other ones are just all kinds of random distillations that that I like. Uh habanero, like doing habanero in the rotovap was always good because it got rid of the uh spice and it was kind of a thing a unique thing that you couldn't really do any other way. So I also like that. That was good. Um two.
+
+[38:01] Have you ever used uh liquid nitrogen uh liquid nitrogen gel technique to put shard uh shards of gels into a foie gras torchant? If not, it's super cool, especially different herb gels, pretty cool uh with uh and chemo too. So here's the what we're talking about. At the lecture, I was talking about how I think Sam Mason is like an ice cream genius, because it's true. And at Oddfellows, he kind of did this in Brooklyn.
+
+[38:22] He did this technique where he took things like jellies and other things, froze them with liquid nitrogen, and then shattered them and folded them into his ice creams as they were being made. So instead of having swirls of crap, you would have like discrete pockets of crap inside the ice cream, because then as it tempers out, right? Of course, it turns to its normal jelly consistency, which is pretty cool. Uh but apparently you can do it in other things as well. And when are you opening a booker and Dax Cambridge outpost?
+
+[38:47] Well, sadly, I don't know. I don't know if we're ever gonna are we ever gonna open another one, Stas? It would be great if we could have put one there. I don't know, yeah. But I like it actually in the Boston Cambridge area.
+
+[38:55] You like it over there? Mm-hmm. Yeah? She's like, whatever, I don't care. I hate it everywhere.
+
+[38:59] I'm an equal opportunity hater. But where do you not hate it? Where do you not hate it about Cambridge? Yeah. Where do you where do you not where do you not hate it?
+
+[39:06] What's the name of place you don't hate? I I like a lot of places. Okay. Yeah. That wasn't an answer though.
+
+[39:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not an answer. Uh okay, and on a similar vein, Adrian Blackpool wrote in, hey hammer, only writes to you. Don't care about me. Uh I didn't I didn't order the first generation of Searsol after the first run.
+
+[39:25] Is there a second one planned already? Uh yeah, we're just gonna keep making them as long as people keep buying them. The problem is, uh, if you're in the UK, which it says you are, we're only gonna sell them in the future on uh Amazon.us. So you're gonna have to figure out some way to uh get them to like drop ship it o overseas because right? Yeah.
+
+[39:43] Yeah. But yes, the answer is yes. And could you speak to my second book? I don't even know what my second book is gonna be about, but you know, my editor Maria Guarna Shelley is anxious for us to figure out when did I tell her I was gonna figure that out? First week of October.
+
+[39:55] You think that's gonna happen? No. No, no, hell no. Uh and is there anything else in the Booker and Dax pipeline? Answer yes, but I don't want to talk about anything future until we get these Searsols out the door.
+
+[40:05] I have nothing, nothing publicly is on my mind until the Sears alls are out the door, right? Yeah. And finally, could you give any warning for UK dates uh so I can plan uh sick leave? Uh because I presume you're uh any dates you're gonna be are in London, uh, because they're in Lancashire, UK. Yeah, I mean I hope to come to uh London sometime for the for the book thing because we can write it off, right?
+
+[40:25] Uh and the last question how do I clean a rotovap? Uh I think I answered someone else on this, or I don't know, maybe you were writing in. Uh rotary evaporator, for those of you that don't know, is a piece of equipment uh to do it's a lab piece of equipment that does uh distillation under vacuum, so that allows you to do very gentle distillations. When you're cooking, it allows you to do uh distillations at very low temperature and without oxygen, which means that you can do very gentle, awesome things. However, they're expensive, and so people buy them used, and if you buy them used, you have the problem that really, really disgusting things have gone through them.
+
+[40:54] So the a short answer is is I can never guarantee that your roto vac will be safe. However, you need to clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, and clean some more. I would boil it a couple of times. The all the glassware, I would put it through an ultrasonic bath if you have it. I would clean it with uh as many solvents as you can get, starting with the least like food grade and working towards like you know, like pure ethanol if you can, and then water.
+
+[41:19] I would then do some distillation runs through it. But the whole thing, all the grease, everything off of it, do some whole uh do some distillation runs with it to further get into every nook and cranny that you might somehow have missed and just clean, clean, clean, you know, like beyond the fact beyond the point when there's no smell anymore. You just have no idea what they put through it. You know what I'm saying, Stez? Sure.
+
+[41:38] You have no idea. Unless they tell you. Uh okay. Um we have Lucas wrote in. Lucas, love Lucas.
+
+[41:47] Uh hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Wyatt. Although Wyatt doesn't hasn't come back, doesn't like us. Uh Wyatt's right here. Oh, hey, why you weren't here earlier? Nope.
+
+[41:55] He was late. All right. Like somebody else. Well, there you go. Hey, oh, well, Lucas gave you a shout out.
+
+[42:00] So howdy, anyway. Anyway, my all-time favorite food is bully bays. Julia Child, that's an I like bully base. You like it? What do you like better?
+
+[42:08] Boulia bays, or you like like San Francisco Chapino style? I I don't know. Chapino, the Capino's got the spicy sausage and stuff. Oh. And they they serve with the garlic bread next to it.
+
+[42:17] I think I like Chapino better, although I like bully base. Anyway, my all-time favorite food is bully bays. Julia Child advocates making stock by simmering less expensive parts of fish but never boiling it. This got me thinking of lobster stock, which when done in pressure cooker is unpalatable. Could these two things be related?
+
+[42:31] And shall I make my fish stocks in a water bath well below 100 C. Okay. I think it's two separate things. The reason I don't think she wants you to boil the fish is because uh she doesn't want it to get like too clouded up with like weird like bull crap from the bones and less expensive parts. I think that's the thing against the boiling uh with uh the fish.
+
+[42:50] But whereas lobster, if you do lobster stock, i.e. with the bone with the shells, uh in a pressure cooker, you just get too much of that calcium shell note out. I think any time with lobster, I think a lot of people overcook their uh lobster uh stuff when they're using shells to get flavors out of because there's a certain point at which you're not extracting flavor and just extracting that just shell note, and I hate that. So I think that that's what what that is. I don't know that um I mean I've never taken have I ever tested doing I don't think I've ever tested uh temperatures on fish stocks before in a circular.
+
+[43:21] I mean, obviously I've done a lot of tests with combuh, but not with fish. There's probably a difference, um, but I don't know. I don't know that uh give it a try. Let me know. I don't know, but I think that those two things are not necessarily uh related.
+
+[43:35] Um and what I do with the bully bays anyway is I always I always buy like usually whole fish, fillet them out, and then use all this all the all the bones and crap for the stock. And then I usually do my I don't usually do any of that stuff traditionally. What I'll do is I'll take uh, for instance, like uh all my I'll take first I'll take all of my uh I'll sweat the onions, then I'll do the wine, then I'll do all of my uh like hard like clams and whatnot, uh steam them open, get the juices out, pull the shells out, and then shuck and and reserve because I don't really like throwing the shells in. Do you like throwing you don't like throwing the shells in, right? I reserve, and then I and then I'll usually um I usually like quickly to cook the fillets and steam like over that and then remove and then throw the bones and make the stock out of that reserve and then add all the meat together at the last second after I cook the veg out, but whatever.
+
+[44:23] Um that's a little different. Each time I used to go to Booker and Dacks, my girlfriend, I pointed at the doer in the front of the bar and told her we need to buy one at home because I cannot keep one in my Manhattan apartment. No, tell her that we need to buy a home to have the liquid nitrogen. Good reason to have liquid nitrogen because I can't uh have one in my Manhattan apartment. Uh now I have a home and a couple of questions.
+
+[44:40] How large a doer should I get? I imagine using it daily for the first two months and then probably once or twice a week afterwards. If I can get a large one, how much will I lose to evaporation per week? Well, first of all, I mean, I know you, so like you're gonna look up the safety stuff because he's like a you know low temperature physicist or was you know before he's doing what he does now. Um so I looked up on Taylor Wharton, which manufactures most of the doers, and a 180 liter doer uh loses about 1.25% a day, which amounts to about 2.25 liters.
+
+[45:07] Uh then what they mean is 1.25% of total capacity, not of the current capacity. So it because otherwise it would be like radioactive decay and it would never go dry, which is not the way it works. Um 2.25 liters. And a hundred and sixty liter doer loses 1.3% a day, which is roughly two liters. Uh so you can see that they last, as we like to say, a good long time.
+
+[45:27] Uh and I looked up on the website, and by the way, don't believe any of these. When you get those 180s and 160s, you're in this essence renting them for like $30 a month from the uh from the welding company that has them. If you buy, and they the the good thing is is that when you get liquid nitrogen in that large quantity, it's relatively inexpensive. Anytime you own the doer and then have them refill it, usually they're gonna charge you more. I know that's the case if they come out and do it.
+
+[45:52] Now, maybe if you're out uh and you have a house, you can drive, obviously, putting it in the trunk and not having it in the car with you. If you can drive there, you might be able to get a reasonable per liter price on a smaller doer, like a 50, a 35 or something like this. And if you can get roughly similar prices, because we're only paying like a dollar a liter when you're getting like 180 or 200 liters or something like this. Um so if you can get a roughly equivalent price, so it's only costing you like 50 bucks to fill a 50 liter doer, they can also be uh relatively economic from a holding standpoint. So they say, for instance, one of the companies I looked up has a what's called a static hold time of 125 liters, which is 0.4 liters a day.
+
+[46:26] I think that's in general a lie. I think they radically underestimate how much you're gonna lose out, especially losing out on pouring when you're pouring and all and all this other stuff. And the other thing to remember about a doer is that um as soon as they age, they start losing more, and when they get damaged at all, they start and if you lose the vacuum, then you're done because uh it it'll like lose its stuff in less than a day. So, you know, the good thing about not owning the doer, having the welding company own the doer, is that uh then if it starts having a problem, it's their problem and uh not your problem. Uh you also asked why are all diners horrible.
+
+[46:58] I don't have time to answer that now, so we'll try to get to that. Try to remember that next uh week. They're not well, whatever, we'll talk about it. Uh and then uh lastly, a while back you spoke about Columbo. Do you think he is actually married?
+
+[47:08] He always talks about his wife, but she is never there. I think he is just making her up. I grew up beyond the Iron Curtain. I imagine because it's quite critical uh of American class society, we were allowed to watch it. Uh it was um by far my father's favorite show.
+
+[47:20] Uh usually followed with my parents arguing whether Columbia's actually married Colombo's actually married or not. Look at this guy. There is no way he is married, by the way. And then he wanted to know if he could come to the ham tasting. I didn't get this until now.
+
+[47:29] I would have tried to sneak you in because I totally could have snuck you in maybe but uh but right Jack I could snuck him in. Anyways um so I like the fact that like this like in this paranoid Iron Curtain plus it's the only thing you could watch behind the iron curtain and somehow see Columbo what's hilarious is that he is critical of class society but to me he's like quintessential America because he wins you know what I mean in the end. But as to whether or not he is married uh please look up uh www dot columbo dash slight dot free uk dot com uh for a whole thing on uh Mrs. Columbo indeed I think she does exist and although I love the idea that there's a conspiracy that she hasn't existed and this she's just some sort of prop that he uses to like kind of beat the criminals there are a couple episodes in particular the one where he's on a cruise ship where uh Mrs. Columbo is seen by other characters in the thing so they would have to be part of the larger conspiracy.
+
+[48:19] Now I know there are many places around the world that think Americans are capable of such kind of intense conspiracies but I think it's only because they overestimate the general competence of people trying to do conspiracy. That's the problem that people I mean when people have conspiracy theories right the assumption is is that somehow there are this number large number of people out there who are a competent to uh make a conspiracy happen and B can then keep it secret which is almost never the case because people are both talkative and incompetent in general true anyway. You're like oh yeah. It's about that time. Oh man all right so I have a lot of stuff uh that I missed I'm gonna list the stuff that I'm missing and then I will get to uh for uh the next time, all right?
+
+[49:02] We're gonna keep track of it too. And we're gonna keep track of it. Uh thanks Wyatt. But we're not well we're not taking, we're not anyway. So we had a question on uh re giving my uh thing for how to do sausages in an immersion uh blender from the Hashi Food Truck.
+
+[49:15] We'll get to it. I don't think we got to uh Sam's uh auto life step, or maybe we did last week, uh two weeks ago. I don't know. Uh we gotta figure it out. Um, but most importantly, Christoph had a question on cooking bass, not striped bass, but uh black bass.
+
+[49:30] So we'll get to that uh next week. Uh Alex wrote in, and everyone wanted to hear about this, so it's a shame. Sirius Eats, our friend at Dan uh at Sirius Eats, Daniel Gritzer. Uh is he still a food and wine too, right? Food and wine, but he wrote for Sirius Heats this article uh about quality and tomatoes and refrigeration, which uh, you know, er I got about 30 tweets saying what's up about this, and I have responses, but don't have the time to get into it now.
+
+[49:56] Maybe we can even have Daniel on. You want to try to see if we can get him on? We'll get him on. Anyway, Daniel's a good man, and I agree with some of his points and disagree with others of them, so we can uh we'll get him on and we'll talk about it. And Sam Geiger asked me about my ideal salad nichoirs, and we'll get to that uh next week.
+
+[50:12] If I didn't mention it, it means that uh somehow we don't know that we didn't answer your question, so send it back in. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[50:42] Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills.
+
+[51:12] It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort. The biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over.
+
+[51:24] Please gamble response.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Wilma Jean, Delicious Fried Chicken and Other Southern Comfort Food Classics Great Burgers 2, located at 345 Smith Street in Brooklyn. Wilma Jean 345 for more information. Hi, this is Celia Cutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:39] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined with uh usual Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, fresh off another trip to uh the Harvard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. We like that place.
+
+[0:54] Yeah, no, I like it a lot. I like uh also joined, well, first in engineering. Who do we got? You got Jack, as usual, Inslee, and a full crew back here today. Who do you got over there?
+
+[1:04] We've got G Paul, who's here, uh training to engineer. Uh Wyatt Burns, who's been with us for the past few weeks. Wyatt, yeah, I'm familiar with the word. Who for the first time provided you with a list of unanswered questions. Isn't that groundbreaking?
+
+[1:16] Sweet. But the are they okay, listen, I don't want anyone to get ticked off here, but we have in-house Daniel Gritzer, formerly of the the Fantastic Magazine Food and Wine, now at Sirius Seats. What's your do you have a title over there or just like, you know? They're calling me culinary director. Wow, that's fucking that's a that's a high title.
+
+[1:35] I didn't drop I didn't I I didn't actually drop an F bomb, just careful. I said Frr. Frr is what what I got to. Fantastic, fantastic. That's a that's a it's uh high title there.
+
+[1:48] Yeah. So are you're running that thing? What does that mean? No, I'm not running things. I work with uh you know Jake Kenji Lopez all.
+
+[1:54] Sure. Yeah. Go ahead. He he has his title is Chief Creative Officer, right? He was.
+
+[1:58] He when I came on board, I think they finally decided to make things a little bit more official. So he's now managing culinary director. So he and I think that mean we usually managing means they handle the ad side in magazine. Uh no, like you can have like a managing editor. But doesn't managing editor handle the like the integration of ad side into edit?
+
+[2:16] Well, yeah, okay. In print magazines it's true. The managing editor does often straddle those lines a little bit. Um here it just means there's uh just making up titles, aren't you? Making make it crap up.
+
+[2:28] He you know, he's he manages the the culinary portion of the or the recipe portion, the cooking portion of the website. Where do isn't he moving to like Botswana or something crazy? Where is he moving? If uh if San Francisco is Botswana, yeah. I've never been to Botswana, so I can't say.
+
+[2:46] I have been to San Francisco. Yeah, no, he moved out, he moved out to the West Coast. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
+
+[2:51] I like San Francisco. San Francisco's a good town, right? Mm-hmm. And it's a good place to visit the Redwoods, which are some of my favorite places in the world. That's true.
+
+[2:59] Yeah. Yeah. And like basically all of us here in Nevada is crazy towns full of like crazy craziness and like wildfires and stuff. Really cool. I like that stuff.
+
+[3:07] But that's not why we brought you here. Let me first of all, why don't we tackle it? We'll tackle tomatoes like midway through. You want to get what? No, you have to say what slow food means to you.
+
+[3:16] Oh, yeah, there's a cool announcement here. So at Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Friday, we're having Alice Waters and Carlo Petrini here to celebrate uh 25 years of slow food. It's pretty cool, right? Yeah, it's a long time. Right?
+
+[3:28] Yeah. I mean, what do you think slow foods meant for food over 25 years? I mean, look, l uh, what year was it, 25 years ago? Uh what's that? Uh geez.
+
+[3:38] 89. No, no. We're we're a decade. 89. 90, 90.
+
+[3:45] Wait. 1989, right? 1989. 89, yeah. 89.
+
+[3:50] The year I the year I graduated. 89, you're right. 89. Uh, okay, so let's all look back to what food was like in 1989. I mean, let's look at like where the high end, where where like people who cared about ingredients and stuff, where where we were as uh a culture in 1989 versus where we are now.
+
+[4:10] And I think what's uh what's interesting about it is is uh you know, even in the early 90s, like the concept of um kind of caring about where food came from was much more advanced in Italy where slow food was was born. Uh much, much, much more than it was here in the U.S. at that time. But uh, you know, you look at the influence of groups like Slow Foods uh America. Let's give a shout out to Patrick, who is, you know, Martin's one of the founders of that.
+
+[4:37] Uh, you know, and I think it's done, it's done a lot. It's hard to say, you know, uh they were there kind of at the beginning, so I think a you know, a big player. What do you think, Daniel? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so many people who can be given credit for so much that's happened in the food world in the past 25 or 30 years uh from Alice Waters who will be here.
+
+[4:58] Um but the slow food movement, I think if you look at if you look at the state of the the food world today and the things that people talk about and even the the trends that some people now get annoyed with um in terms of them being marketing lines or give me some annoying. Oh, you know, every everything's farmed to table, and then people say, okay, well what everything's farmed to table because every everything comes from you know that kind of thing. Well, you know, it like you know we extended that, right? It's farm to toilet now. Farm to toilet.
+
+[5:24] Yeah. That's gonna be the new back page of the the national glossy. Yeah, you know, remember that's mine, farm to toilet. Like other people, I've given it to other people, but farm to toilet, that's that's all me. I and you know, that actually fits in with like the great, you know, like American, like American th uh thinking about uh diet and like the problems with American diet and food.
+
+[5:44] Like one of the early people who was uh interested in that was uh the Reverend Sylvester Graham, like you know, would not have actually enjoyed graham crackers, but was very interested in stopping us from masturbating and having excess sex uh sex. And he thought he could do this by reducing our meat consumption to almost nil and having us eat only kind of whole uh you know whole grain breads like cooked without like external leavenings, uh kind of like really what we would consider like poorly made products. And and so like you know, he thought that this would like de-inflame our passions, get rid of like the national problem at the time, which was dyspepsia. So he, you know, his his conception, this is Jacksonian America now, is that dyspepsia is one of the great problems. It leads to things like adultery, masturbation, things like this, things that he sees as actually kind of morally reprehensible.
+
+[6:27] And remember that dieting in general and and uh detoxing and uh and and I I've written about this, although I've never published it, it's all tied in with body hate. Uh uh and moralism about kind of what we what we do and what we eat and and hatred of of the body and of a physical self. Um that I'm talking to you uh detox people. And um and so uh, you know, that way he was very much interested in pooping. Uh-huh.
+
+[6:53] You know what I mean? And so like f like the early times it was farm to toilet. So I think over the past, you know, 25 years with this farm to table stuff, we've really been ignoring the toilet part. It's yeah, it is definitely the one part of the process that's generally ignored in the food coverage. Only it's only it's not.
+
+[7:09] If you talk to someone and they go to a restaurant. How was it? It was good, but in the morning, oh you know what I mean? So I mean, people actually treat the farm to toilet movement. I think though that the toilet thing started in Italy too.
+
+[7:22] Like they talk about pooping and how it feels and what the food it like's part of everyday conversation. I agree with that, but you also don't hang out with Germans. Do Italians have the shelf in the toilet? Oh, the toilet shelf. The toilet shelf.
+
+[7:36] It's for inspection. Is that what it's for? Yeah, yeah. I have like this to avoid backsplash. No, there's a famous book put out by a guy named Alan Daldus uh Dundas, who's now dead, who did a study of uh kind of uh uh fecal expressions and and uh fascination with uh toiletries in in German uh in German folklore and in in you know culture.
+
+[7:58] It's a fascinating book, and it's called Life is Like a Chicken Coop Ladder. Uh which you know comes from an old German expression that I won't uh get into here. But um Yeah, it's how do they inspect it once it's on the shelf? Well, that you know have you ever had like that style of toilet, and you're like, who designed this freaking thing? It's it's like a skid machine, it's like a skidmaster 5,000 who designed this thing, and it's because some people like to inspect the business after it's done.
+
+[8:24] Uh-huh. It's just a terrible idea. Americans, we want the stuff to go away. There's actually another famous book, what's it called? Oh my goodness, it came out of I think out of Cornell, I forget the author's name.
+
+[8:34] Uh Rem Kulhaus, the famous architect, along with the graduate school of design, uh, recently uh participated in the uh architectural biennale for the uh and one of the things they did is they had a bunch of small books, each on a room of of the house, and the one that my wife bought me, of course, was the bathroom, because I have an intense fear of public restrooms. Uh I detest them. Uh I especially hate. Listen, anyone out there who owns a restaurant or any sort of public place, put a trash can near the door and make sure there are towels there, not just those hand dryers, because I'm going to use a towel to open the doorknob in your door, and I wish to throw that towel in a trash can because I have a mental problem that I can't touch the doorknob in in a public restroom. I'll I'll be locked in that restroom until somebody else comes in.
+
+[9:19] If there's not a source of paper towels nearby, or if I don't happen to have a receipt in my pocket, probably too much information. You can use toilet paper. Yeah, yeah, you can, but you're like there have been a situation, there's just situations. I just don't like it. Just put a towels and and a trash can by the door.
+
+[9:32] You with me, Daniel on this? I'm with you. I think that they need to facilitate that for anyone who wants to use a uh a paper towel to open the door. Yeah. That's a common, common thing.
+
+[9:41] Especially because I'm about to go cook your food. You know what I mean? Or I'm about to go. Wouldn't you prefer that I didn't touch that doorknob? Right.
+
+[9:48] Wouldn't you prefer that? Yeah, you would. Uh now the So anyway, Rem Koolhouse did this thing, and in you know, uh along with some other people, and you know, their point is that um Americans they're focusing on, but Westerners in general, like we do everything uh, well, to back ass words. So we poop into water and wipe with dry things instead of pooping into a dry hole and wiping with wetness. And there's a fantastic book from the 70s uh that was redone, I think, or maybe it's late 60s and redone in the 70s, called uh, you know, the bathroom, and it's a complete ergonomic study of like how different cultures, like with angles, diagrams, pictures.
+
+[10:26] One of our good friends, all of our good friends in the food industry, is using the squatty potty and loves it. You know that really? Yeah. Like the kind they had in Japan? Well, because it's better for your better for your muscles.
+
+[10:39] Put you in a squat position even when you're on a Western toilet. Right. First of all, how do first of all, who is it? I can't. And his girlfriend made him throw it out because she was embarrassed by it.
+
+[10:46] Why? What who cares? No, no, it's just like it's like a stool on either side of your thingamaji. And your legs are like up here. Hey, look, it's a well known fact to anyone that's been to my fam my family's house that I'm a believer in the in the wet on wet, full waste of water, because I have the Japanese toilet seats, which are I think the highest are the dream.
+
+[11:05] They're the apogee of toilet technology. I don't know why we've allowed ourselves to fall behind. I've discussed this on the show many times. I wish I knew who was using this squat toilet, because that's interesting information. And how do we get on?
+
+[11:14] Oh, farm the toilet. Okay. So uh the right. Right, so the the contribution of Carlo Petrini and Alice Waters is Daniel, welcome to the tangential radio hour where we just go off on tangents for no apparent reason. I just want to point out that I think that's the most Nastasia's ever chimed in.
+
+[11:32] No. Oh, well come on. No, willingly. Willingly. She loves some poop talk.
+
+[11:36] I do love some poop talk. Yeah, come on. Like because you know why? She okay, Nastashia's in the food business, right? So she actually I'm gonna give a little secret that you're not gonna be mad about.
+
+[11:46] You're not gonna you're not gonna be mad about this. I'm not like this is nothing you wouldn't be willing to say on air. What do you not like when you go out after work? Oh, going out with food people who want to talk about food. Yeah.
+
+[11:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's you know, now she gets to exercise the other subject. Poop. She doesn't care about religion or politics.
+
+[12:02] So you got your poop and you got your reading. Right? Yeah. And then there's, you know, other less polite things. But well you know, whatever.
+
+[12:09] Uh okay. So uh here's what I figure. Like I think we should get now the reason we have Daniel here today is because as uh we've said many I've said many times, is that tomatoes, refrigeration, with the exception of I think like grape tomatoes and whatnot, which I don't really care about because I don't think it really degrades the taste of the seed section so much, but and there's very little pulp in one of those grape tomatoes. And so like I've always stored those in the fridge because why the hell not? But uh I've always said storing tomatoes in the fridge, uh enemy of quality, and uh Daniel came out with a series of the articles on uh on serious seeds, basically telling me to not me personally, but people like me to shove it.
+
+[12:48] And but it's more nuanced than that. So we're gonna get into the great tomato smackdown. We gotta get some uh reverb on that next time. When we come back out of the we come back out of minute. The great tomato smackdown.
+
+[13:01] Yeah. Tuesday. Anyway, uh maybe we'll do that after the first break. You know what I'm saying? And so I feel that like, you know, I read all all your posts on it, so we'll get into a little bit now.
+
+[13:11] And this is gonna give you time during the 30-second commercial break to read all 6,000 words or whatever it is of uh tomato technology that you have. What is it, like 5,000 words? I don't even know. You didn't even look. I didn't even see it.
+
+[13:25] People kept asking for more. Niagara Falls tomato. Well, yeah, because they kept telling me I was wrong. Yeah, well, look, look, they listen. There's two things I'll just say this as a spoiler, is that I I after reading it, I you know, like some of the stuff is very hard to dispute, and I think people that could just call people out as wrong, you need to learn this.
+
+[13:44] This is the greatest thing you can learn in in life, I think, is the best thing in the world that you can ever do is to be proven wrong, learn from it, and grow. You know what I mean? It's like I've learned the best things when I was wrong, you know, uh especially because I've tried you try to be right, you try to do as right as you can, and then when you're proven wrong, it means that you've grown, so that's a win. But I think there's room for both of us at this tomato table because you're you're people another thing I hate about people is they read something like you we wrote a lot of words, yeah, and they come back with one with one overarching statement that encapsulates everything. That's not the case.
+
+[14:21] That's not the I mean, like for instance, we have to talk about what types of tomatoes, right, how long, right, what you're doing, what your house is like, blah blue, ble, blah blah blah. Exactly. I mean, that's really the thing is there's so many variables. And really what all I mean I started where you were. I was a don't put the tomatoes in the refrigerator guy.
+
+[14:40] Because you're not an enemy of quality. That's right. I like quality. Yeah. Um I like good tomatoes.
+
+[14:45] Uh, and that's what I had always been taught, and uh it seemed that that made sense to me, and it sort of fit with my anecdotal experience. But I'd never tested it. So, you know, we decided, well, let's put it to the test. Let's see what actually happened. So all summer long I was uh I was buying tomatoes of different types and different quality levels and putting half in the fridge and half on the counter, and just keeping track of and then and then tasting them uh uh blind and keeping track of what the results were, and it started to emerge that this thing wasn't really holding up in my tests as much as the rule to never refrigerate tomatoes suggested it should have.
+
+[15:25] And I couldn't ignore that. So, yeah, so then I wrote wrote about it, and uh I think there are a fair number of people simply didn't want to let go of the rule or consider the possibility that the rule may not hold as much as they think it does. Right. People wake up, learn, and pay attention to what people are doing, especially if they're being rigorous about it. So uh I've had m like so many people tweet at me about your articles, and I've had people write in about it.
+
+[15:49] And so, by the way, we're gonna get into it in depth after the uh after the first break, but call in your questions for Daniel regarding tomatoes or anything else. Two seven one eight four nine. Now, uh before we get into that, so where do you live? Now I live in Queens in Jackson Heights. Remember they bought a house?
+
+[16:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But where's your farmer's market? Where are you buying your tomatoes? Oh, well, a lot of them I bought at the Jack and Jackson Heights farmers market. Which is run by Green Market.
+
+[16:22] Well, it's a lot of the same Stokes there? It's a l uh Stokes is not there, but I did get I did get a big random tomatoes from Stokes. Which ones? Uh I got uh flat of mixed heirlooms and I got a flat of their red, uh they're like regular red tomatoes. The the two tomatoes from Stokes that are to me are the only ones that I ever they're only tomatoes I buy, other than just crap tomatoes.
+
+[16:42] Are you gonna say those small yellow ones? No, I buy uh the German stripes, which are large and kind of mottled yellow and red, and the Ant Ruby's German green, which are green, relatively large, and then get a pinkish red blush that goes around them. And I've been buying these these exact two tomatoes from them for you know, it's over it's gotta be, I don't know, like ten years or something, like nine, ten years. So like I wait for them every year. I know exactly what they look like when they're the way I want them to be, and like how long it's gonna take them to get them where I want them to be.
+
+[17:19] Yeah. You know what I mean? So like for me, it's like this. A lot of heirlooms, and we can get this in discussion later, aren't very good to begin with. That's true, yeah.
+
+[17:28] Yeah. But anyway, so we'll we'll talk about all this, and then we'll also talk about the implications for the. Remember growing up those like those uh rectangular plastic boxes of the clamshells of the case. Yeah, with well the well, the the rectangular like mesh boxes long, they had four three or four really kind of sallow looking tomatoes, and then they were overwrapped with plastic, and then they had like an image of like a nice tomato on the plastic wrap. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[17:54] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like that's what I grew up with as a tomato, or like a the diner tomato. Which is that. Right.
+
+[18:02] You know, those those things are the size of like uh, well, I don't know, you can't see my hands. Like a handball. They're like small, crappy, medium, small. They're size of like a little larger than a compari tomato. Yeah.
+
+[18:14] Which I think are a fine supermarket tomato. It tastes good. Yeah. Yeah. Um people hate on those things, but they actually they taste good.
+
+[18:22] And they're year-round. They're not bad to eat. They're not all that bad. No. Okay.
+
+[18:26] So let's get to some questions though. And Daniel, please uh feel free to uh chime in. I have some, you know, technical qu technical cooking questions I got to get to, otherwise I'll I'll hear clamorings. So Jesper writes in from Sweden regarding roto vaps and vacuums. Now, if uh you might recall Jesper's written in a couple times about rotovap problems.
+
+[18:43] Uh he's uh making uh building a roto vap setup. For those of you that don't know what a rotovap is, a rotary evaporator is a vacuum still that allows you to do uh like uh distillation of flavors at very uh low temperatures and under vacuum, which means there's no oxidation and there's almost no heat damage to the flavors. Very pure flavors. And you can do it with a, you know, it you can do it with a normal condenser, it's a piece of laboratory equipment. If you buy them used, you have to be very careful to clean them, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[19:08] I use them at Booker Index, the bar. I have to use a very much more complicated way of doing it because I can't distill with alcohol, so in order to keep the flavors intact, I need to use liquid nitrogen and special kind of condensers, so yada yada. So uh that said, that is what a roto vap is. They ain't cheap if you, you know, they ain't cheap. I first saw one uh the first time I I wait, I I when I first started working at the French culinary, even when I was part-time there, you know, we were researching all equipment, and I knew I wanted to do some um some vacuum distillation, so I built a really crappy one, you know, like out of parts that I found around uh found around, and it really kind of sucked, but it gave me like a taste for it.
+
+[19:46] And then I saw the Rokas do a uh uh demonstration at Madrid Fusion where they did the oyster thing. It's the first time I ever seen the distilled uh dirt going in uh distilled dirt water that they put on oysters, they're surfing turf. I was like, must get real one. Okay, so uh Jesper writes in. I previously sent a question that is still unanswered.
+
+[20:02] I apologize. Uh consequently, I would appreciate if Dave uh can have uh his expertise and opinions on this question, namely in regards to selecting a vacuum pump for a roto vap, uh though I'm already in the process of buying one. So now Jesper's got looking at okay. So you need a vacuum to run a vacuum still. This is obvious, right?
+
+[20:19] That seems apparent, yeah. Right, because when you lower the when you lower the uh the pressure, when you lower the the pressure inside of a system, you you decrease the temperature at which things boil, just like going up to the top of a mountain. You decrease the temperature at which things boil, things boil at a lower temperature, therefore you can shift the distillation point down to a lower temperature. That's the whole principle of what's going on here. Now, the deal is you need a vacuum pump that can one get to a low enough uh vacuum pressure that you can um really reduce the boiling point, especially if you're gonna do cooking with it.
+
+[20:48] You need very good vacuums because uh if you're gonna try to make things like syrups and you don't want them to get too hot, they have a very high boiling point. Think of when you're boiling candy down, you're boiling down uh the temperature goes up and up, you need a better and better vacuum to be able to maintain this low temperature, right? So the other thing you need is you need a uh a vacuum that can one tolerate some moisture because you're gonna mess up and you're gonna you're gonna accidentally suck some moisture up into your vacuum pump, so it needs to tolerate some moisture. And uh three, you need it to be powerful enough that it uh can um suck the vacuum uh fast enough. So a lot of people make a mistake.
+
+[21:20] They try to get uh either these little things called aspirators, which run off of uh faucets, and they um they're kind of weak. They don't have, they don't, they're not strong enough. They can't suck enough of a vacuum fast enough to really be useful for what we're doing. And then other people go the other way, they get a really uh vacuum that sucks a lot but can't get to a low enough vacuum level. So, like a vacuum cleaner or a hood has a huge amount of exhaust you know, can exhaust a huge amount, but it can't do it to a very low vacuum.
+
+[21:46] So these are the problems. So uh Jasper is looking at buying either the uh Bukey V700 or V710 pump, which is their standard laboratory vacuum pump. I have the V700, it's nice, it can get down to around 10 millibar, so stay atmospheric pressure is about 16 uh 1600, you know, uh no, 1000, sorry, 1,065 millibar. So it gets down pretty low, but it can't really get that all the time. It can really get to about 20, especially if your rotovap is leaking and it's kind of a pain in the ass.
+
+[22:13] Leaky rotovap, by the way, for those of you that don't know, leaky rotovap, key cause of flavor loss in a distillation, leaky roto vap, because your air is sucking in through the leak and stripping flavor up and out through your pump. In real life, when you're using a vacuum pump in a di in a rotary evaporator uh evaporator distillation, your pump should run down to its pressure and then never turn on again. That's the best of all possible worlds. And then you're losing no flavor. Think about it.
+
+[22:36] You're evacuating it down to a to a certain level, you're supposed to boil everything off and then recondense it in the condenser. You're not supposed to have to suck a vacuum again. It's supposed to be like closed loop, but it doesn't work that way. So the pump always has to run a little bit, but it shouldn't ever run that much. Uh but uh the more much more expensive pump, the pump I have is the one that you know he's saying the 700, the cheaper one.
+
+[22:57] Um and do you know how to make this? Um by the way, I'm running the show for the first time off of my new iPhone 6 Plus. Fabulous. Oh, check that out. But unlike the my iPad, it keeps turning off on me.
+
+[23:09] Do you know how to go into settings and make this thing not automatically turn off? Because I keep looking down and then I have to use my finger to sign in. Oh, it's only finger sign in now? No, yeah, I still have a password on it, but like it's irritating. Every time I go to look at the question, I say something, I go down and I see my my lock screen, it's no fun.
+
+[23:24] So, anyways, so uh the 7710 is a much bigger pump. If you could afford it, uh I would go for it. Uh, if you could afford the you know footprint, I would go for it because it's gonna be better for things like syrups because it can get down to a much lower vacuum pressure. It has another level of uh pump on it. Both of the and it also you there's a thing in vacuum pumps.
+
+[23:42] Daniel, I'm sorry about the you have to listen to vacuum pump technology, but there's a one of the problems when you're doing a vacuum is is that you suck how long is it gonna stay on now? Forever. Really? It says Woo! Uh so there's a thing in a vacuum where if you get moisture inside of your vacuum system, right?
+
+[23:58] And you're not pumping a lot, you can't get down to a low level. So they have this thing called a gas ballast that after your vacuum system lets a little bit of air in, so the sucker can pump all the time, draw dry air with it and expel out your uh your your moisture. Get it? Okay, I think so. Yeah.
+
+[24:15] So when you're running a gas ballast to get the moisture out of your vacuum pump, the bigger vacuum pump can still reach a lower vacuum pressure, right? It's just put it this way, it's got more balls. Sounds good, yeah. All right. So if you can afford it, take it.
+
+[24:27] The other question is you need a vacuum controller, and he wants to know whether he should get the uh V850, which is the one we have, which is basically just a standard vacuum controller, it hits a set point and stops, or the V855, which that's automatic distillation. Listen, I have no idea. I would always wanted to have the uh 855, and if you know someone at Bukey, let me tell you, it's the same freaking unit. All they gotta do is like flip some switches and like do a firmware update, and they can convert. They won't.
+
+[24:52] They won't do it. But it's just a software difference, just the same piece of hardware. Isn't that isn't that just a kicker? That sounds like Apple. Yeah, right?
+
+[24:59] They're just crippling products. They cripple why? Yeah, why? Still, still no USB on this damn thing. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[25:05] Caller on the line. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. How's it going? Going alright, what's up?
+
+[25:11] Hey, I had a couple of equipment questions. I hope you could help me with. Alrighty. Um, I'm I'm curious in a cheap uh home ice cream maker. I think I've heard you say before you like the rock salt one.
+
+[25:22] The which one? Um the rock salt. Yep, yep, rock salt and ice, yep. Is there any particular model you like or what should I look for? All right.
+
+[25:31] So I'll tell you that this the sad truth is I want to love the whatever it's called, the White Mountain, which is the kind of the White Mountain, that's the name of it, right? I can't remember. Yeah, I saw I saw that on uh I think Chev Dubs like Route or something. Yeah, it's good. I have one, right?
+
+[25:46] Uh it's really good, it's expensive, right? But it's like right it's it's oldie timey, and the scrapers that it uses are wooden. Okay. Now I had a thrift store, like I forget the name of it, like Revco or something like this. A thrift store motorized.
+
+[26:04] I also I was stupid. I thought my kids would want to get into ice cream making with me and crank that thing. And so I bought the hand crank crank. Probably. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:12] I th I bought the hand crank one thinking that oh, we would sit around the table and crank ice cream. Hell no, you can't get around the table by yourself. Yeah, hell no, hell no. I see I sit there by myself cranking on that thing. So, like, if I could go back, I would definitely get the motorized one because I have better things to do with my life than watch my kids watch me crank an ice cream machine.
+
+[26:31] But the uh so aside from that though, uh like the white mountain is really good, but the old crappy Revco, I think Revco, I don't even remember, one that I had had uh plastic like scraper dashers on it that actually did I think a better job of getting the ice cream off the side of the freezing tin. And so I think that so one of the problems with uh rock salt and ice uh um ice cream freezers, right? Is you need to be able to effectively scrape the crystals off the side of the uh metal container, or you get like weird like chunky crystal problems in it. And that's why those companies who make those things don't recommend that you salt the hell out of your ice. They they give you a like a assault recommendation and they give you a freezing window that's actually a lot longer than I like.
+
+[27:19] Now, with my old Revco with the plastic scraper blades, until that sucker died, like I could churn out like easy like 12-15 minute batch times on that thing and still get good scrapage on the sides. Whereas my feeling is with the with the scraper dasher things that they have on the White Mountain, that if you were to push the times that fast by salting the hell out of it, that it would lose its scraping efficiency. So I've never been, but I again like you know, I haven't played with the White Mountain as much because you know, years ago I would make ice cream like like two times a week in my old Revco one. I paid I think three bucks for that ice cream maker on the thrift shop. I'm so sad that thing died.
+
+[27:56] And um, and so I used to do it uh all the time. I I also bought the really big white mountain, so I don't know whether I would have had better results if I had used the smaller one. Uh, because when I go, I go big usually, uh, unless I'm buying something from a thrift shop. It's just, you know, it's in my nature. I can't help it.
+
+[28:12] Um so anyway, so that's that's my thoughts. What did am I answering any sort of question or am I just saying things? I can't tell. No, no, I think uh I think that's helpful. Um I I I know what you're talking about with a scraper.
+
+[28:24] My my parents had an old kind of crappy one too, and uh uh I I know what you're talking about with the weird chunky kind of crystal thing. Yeah. Yeah, although I think you can modify a white mountain. Yeah, that's you retrofit. The other thing uh I want to ask you about is I was reading blog posts from a while ago about the um the little tidy centrifuge.
+
+[28:44] Yep. Uh um what do you think about that now that you've had a chance to use it more? Can it do much and how does how is the yield gonna compare to like I love uh your guys who's pinotechnique. I've been doing a lot of uh trying like outdoor clarification. I wonder how the yield gonna be.
+
+[29:01] Can you use it for much more than clarification? And then just what are your current thoughts on that machine now? Uh well, it's not good for anything that where you care about the solids because it's very hard. So most of the time when I work with solids in a centrifuge, you're actually dealing with kind of a stratification of layers, and you're not going to want all of those layers, and so it's useful to have large buckets so you can scrape the different layers off. So, like let's say you're making like pecan you know, you grind up pecans.
+
+[29:30] You can get the oil layer, then you can get the fine nut layer, and then you can get the like this like the the outer, you know, skinny layer at the bottom. And it's very hard with a machine like this. It's first of all, it's not gonna do nut separation so well, but it's very hard with a machine like this to do any real separation. So it's really only useful for things where you want the liquid on top. Uh and you have to spin it a lot.
+
+[29:52] I did do a Houstino once of uh uh for a large group of people, and I was uh it's back when Tristan was the bar manager at Booker and Dax, and we were in a basement in Bogota spinning for hours and hours and hours and hours. Oh god and hours. But if you want to do something like lime juice where you only need like you know, a couple ounces and you're good. You know, right? Yeah.
+
+[30:21] Yeah. We did it for Hurricane Sandy, too, remember? For the Today Show. Oh, really? Oh my god, that was a nightmare.
+
+[30:27] Uh yeah, yes. I I I've never like I've never been so like visibly like just not in a good mood on a on a T on a TV appearance ever. Right? Like visibly just like making Halloween drinks in a not good mood. Uh but anyway, it's not that big of an investment.
+
+[30:46] Um, you know, if you want to jump in and get it, you know, I'm sure, you know, sooner or later there'll be a much better alternative, but um it's not a horrible thing to play around with for things like lime juice or small amounts of grapefruit juice and things like that. Yeah, okay, great. Thanks. Uh thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
+
+[31:05] Uh the insight. Hey, cool, no problem. Thanks for calling. Okay. New tagline.
+
+[31:09] Am I answering questions or am I just saying things? It's hard to know. I don't know. I can't tell. Uh so anyway, uh back to break time.
+
+[31:19] Well, wait, let me finish Jesper's question first. Then we'll go to break. So uh look, the 855, the key thing with that is automatic distillation. Uh, it depends on how they run the autumn. See, for those of you that don't, when you're when you're doing a distillation, just like when you're making candy, I tell you the boiling point goes up as you're as you're boiling stuff off, as there's less water in the product or less alcohol, depending on what kind of distillation you're doing.
+
+[31:38] Especially when you're doing alcohol distillation, which is what you're gonna be doing, let's be honest, is uh the the boiling point is constantly changing. And because the boiling point is constantly changing, you need to sit there and keep and adjust constantly the boiling point of the you know the the vacuum pressure that you're running the distillation at in order to keep a constant level of distillation. That's how you have to do it. Now the 855 claims to have automatic uh distillation algorithms that make it so you can walk away from it. I've never used it, I don't know if I trust it to make the best possible flavor.
+
+[32:09] Maybe it does. It would in which case it'll save you. I mean, like I have to sit in front of every liter of product I want. I or someone who is trained has to sit in front of the rotor vap for an hour. Okay?
+
+[32:20] So it's like if you could just, you know, Ronco, you know, Ron Popeel it, set it and forget it, you know, then maybe it would be worth almost untold amounts of money if you were gonna do this kind of thing a lot. One last thing you said you had uh, and this I'm gonna get into just really quickly, Jack, before we go to the break, is uh you're using for your chiller, remember, when you're doing distillation, what's the key, what's the key thing you have to remember distillation, moonshiners? Anyone? Anyone? Cutting off the tails.
+
+[32:44] Well, the uh in terms of taste, yes, but in terms of physics, in terms of physics, everything that you boil, you have to condense, right? You have to in other words, you have to have as much chilling power as you have heating power, or you'll saturate your condenser, right? So the way moonshiners do this is they always moonshine near a creek or a well and they just put it through a boat ton of water, right? Uh through long tubes and a lot of water, but they're not doing it at a very low temperature. In rotary evaporation, you're doing your your um your chilling, you're condensing, usually at a lower temperature, much lower than tap water.
+
+[33:18] Chemists use tap water at 20 degrees Celsius because they're doing their distillations higher, like 60 degrees Celsius, and they just dump, dump, dump tap water through the condenser. But they're not getting a very large temperature delta between their distillation and their condensing, which means they're not getting a lot of fine resolution of flavors. They're just not doing it. They're losing a lot of stuff through their through their vacuum stack. Okay.
+
+[33:39] So you need a low temperature, but you need to have a low temperature and a lot of power. So your piece of equipment that you own, which is a Julabo FE500 recirculating cooler, only has 120 watts of cooling power at minus 10 Celsius, right? You're gonna want to set it at minus 20, minus 23, start your distillation, and then it's gonna that temperature is gonna creep up through your distillation runs. So you're gonna have to do smaller distillation runs so that your temperature doesn't get too high before you get too far in, or you're not gonna be able to maintain your chilling. You need if I was you and if it's gonna spend money on something, I would spend it on more chilling power.
+
+[34:13] Alright, let's go to break. Today's program has been brought to you by Wilma Jean from the team behind Nightingale 9. Delicious fried chicken and other Southern Comfort Food Classics, awesome burgers too, located at 345 Smith Street in Brooklyn. That's Wilma Jean. Wilma Jean 345.com.
+
+[35:11] And a welcome back. Alright, listen, Stas is like, we're only gonna have time for the tomatoes. Let me like here, Jack. We're gonna have to have some sort of a catch-up show at some point. Yeah, that sounds great.
+
+[35:14] Like, because I have I have so many questions. A whole show dedicated to it? Because I have like nine. Yeah, look, I got I got I got Should we put the freeze on right now? The new question freeze?
+
+[35:32] What I have like I have to go, I have like I have a bunch of questions from Lucas. I have Sam's like autolysse for bread, I have cooking black bass, I have salad nichois, I have salt and penetration. Oh well, I have poo. I have brine penetration and I have salt uh like uh assaulting, I have aegless cooking, I have I have how to make a foam that doesn't break. None of these things seem that they need it right away.
+
+[35:58] Liquid smoke, uh ISI versus soda screen. We're gonna need to do we're gonna need to do a ketchup show. A special ketchup show. Special ketchup show. How we gonna do that?
+
+[36:10] Oh, that would be sick. You know, Stas, as you remember, we learned on this show, does not care about what brand of ketchup she uses. Actually, no, that's not true. When I was away this past week. Are you using crappy ketchup?
+
+[36:20] Someone gave like a Sir Kensington, and I was like, and you were like, Where's my freaking hines? Well, if you read Patrick's book, he you know, we've he he uh firm believer in the Heinz being better than all of their ketchup. Yeah, you know something interesting about the Heinz Corporation? They figured out a process for making ketchup relatively early on that uh meant they didn't have to use benzoate, uh sodium benzoate in their as a preservative in the in their stuff. So they were trying to push through a benzoit brand a ban early along with uh some governmental people so that they could squash everybody else who still had to use benzoid.
+
+[36:55] That's some sweet business. They're like, this stuff that we figured out how not to use is dangerous. But then everyone else figured it out, so it wasn't so imperative that they put the band through. Hey, and we're back on tomatoes. Hey, hey.
+
+[36:59] Yeah. You know what? Look, you know, Ron O'Reagan taught me as a child ketchup, that's a straight-up veggie. That's a straight-up serving of veggie. Sure is.
+
+[37:16] Anyone, anyone old enough to remember this? Tomato ketchup was considered like in school lunches. They'll talk about what what slow foods and that kind of thinking is done, Alice Waters and whatnot. Like, you know, back then, tomatoes were a vegetable. Think about that.
+
+[37:29] Oh, yeah, pizza. I mean, not tomatoes. Uh, ketchup was a vegetable. Tomatoes are a fruit. My son's like, they're the vegetable, no, they're fruit, but they are used as vegetable.
+
+[37:36] I mean, ketchup vegetable, which is nuts. Okay. So, uh, Jack, when are we gonna have this ketchup show? Uh, how about two weeks from now? I'm gonna I'm out next week, so maybe the following week.
+
+[37:46] We come in early and do a double episode. You want to do that? Wait, but you're not here next week. Yeah, but we'll have somebody here. We have Liz will be here.
+
+[37:54] We have a really interesting Don Lee. Next week, Don Lee and uh Paul Adams are gonna come in and we're gonna eat Icelandic fermented shark on air. No way. The one week I leave. Yeah, you can come back.
+
+[38:07] Kind of like try that. Who who do you not like at all, Jack? Because they should be running the station then. Can't say on air. Oh, well, we'll find out next week when we show up.
+
+[38:18] Well, we got 10 minutes, so let's all right so we so we we either do a double show next week. Oh, because Jack's gone. We kind of need Jack. For the early one? If we do a double?
+
+[38:29] Well, I'll tweet out what our answer is. But we'll do a show where there's no new questions, where we just do ketchup on these questions that we've missed. Not catch up, catch catch up. Catching up to our questions. Alright, so people, I have not missed your questions.
+
+[38:43] I have them, but right now we must talk tomatoes. And that's actually one of the questions. So why don't you talk about your studies here real quick? Okay, so it started out, let's see, over the summer, I was actually down in Florida and I knew I wanted to visiting visiting my mom. By definition, not a mistake.
+
+[39:03] Um I knew I wanted to get started on these. What the hell are you doing visiting Florida in the summer? Unless you're coming to a mango tasting. Alright. Um so I didn't have access down there to really good, you know, let's say farmers market tomatoes.
+
+[39:21] Um but I figured people buy a lot of tomatoes at the supermarket, so let me start this test with these. So that was the first round. And what kind were they? They were your they were, it was I got three kinds. I got a sort of your standard red sandwich tomato, um, uh plum tomatoes, and then some smaller, yeah, like cherry tomatoes basically.
+
+[39:42] And half in the fridge, half on the counter. I always brought the ones from the fridge back up to room temperature before tasting just so that tasters couldn't easily identify which was which by temperature. And uh the first day, after the first overnight, um the the countertop tomatoes, the room temperature tomatoes, were clearly better than the refrigerated ones. Uh and at that point I was still expecting the refrigerated tomatoes to just be terrible across the board, because I was operating under the same assumption that everyone else has been. Um on the second day, with the so the tomatoes had sat at the counter for two days at that point and had been in the fridge for two days at that point, uh things flipped.
+
+[40:26] And suddenly the counter tomatoes tasted kind of dull. And whereas the refrigerated tomatoes still maintained a vibrancy, I would say. Yeah, I mean exactly. The bar was low. By the way, when you said suddenly the song Suddenly Seymour came into my head, which is an amazing song.
+
+[40:50] Suddenly Seymour. Awesome, Daniel. I love it. Yeah. It's right there.
+
+[40:54] It's right there with it. Right there. Oh yeah. Alright, let's continue before we get kicked off the air. So uh not for not because of suddenly Seymour, but because of our time.
+
+[41:04] Yeah. So right. Uh okay, so let's see, to make this quick. So that surprised me. Um I started to wonder, well, okay, it it it looks like there's a point at which sitting out in warmer temperatures can actually be potentially more detrimental to the flavor of a tomato than a refrigerated one.
+
+[41:21] But and I and I wrote a thing about that, uh, but that left a lot of questions because these were your your really generic uh big ag tomatoes shipped from state to state, picked green, the whole thing. Sure, crap tanks. Crap tanks. So how does this does this really apply to better tomatoes? So for the rest of the summer I was doing tests where I was buying tomatoes pretty much at the rate that I could consume them and uh refrigerating half of each kind and putting the other half in the counter.
+
+[41:50] And it and it continued to bear out uh in in my blind tastings, the findings. Now my my apartment is hot uh in the summer because I don't have air conditioning. Mistake. Yeah, I know. I I pat myself on the back for it for environmental reasons, but it's actually actually really stupid.
+
+[42:10] Um so that's I started to s home in on this on this theory that a lot of the studies that had been done, the the ones that I found, I I haven't done an exhaustive search of all of the literature on tomato storage, but what I did find across the board, all the tomatoes that were tested were tested in cooler temperatures. So room temperature was defined as being below 70 degrees Fahrenheit and then compared to refrigeration temperatures. And I was finding that in my room temperature, which was well over 80 degrees Fahrenheit, um the ripe the so angry sweating too while he's writing. Yeah. Can't sleep, face against the pillow.
+
+[42:52] Oh man. Yeah. I've done all sorts of crazy things to deal with deal with the the heat in my place, including sleeping on wet sheets. Um anyway, uh it it continued to it continued to look like at the very least in warm temperatures, once you have a nice ripe tomato, uh it actually seems to do better more often than not in the fridge than being left out uh to kind of wilt in the heat. Um a lot of people were still not happy with those results.
+
+[43:25] They wanted more quantitative data because this was mostly just qualitative, you know, I do blind tastings and say, well, I like this one because of X and that one because of Y, and sort of see where the see where everything uh everything ended up. So then for the third round, I did uh I tried to quantify it by doing uh a pretty large blind tasting in my office. I had people rate the tomatoes on a scale of uh zero to ten on criteria like overall preference, texture, flavor, aroma. Uh had different tomatoes. I averaged them all out um to see to see where things were.
+
+[44:01] I also did many rounds of triangle tests because one of the things that I was finding was that in many cases it was hard to actually even distinguish between the counter tomatoes and the refrigerated tomatoes. So a triangle test, for those of you that don't know, it's uh two things that are the same, one thing's different, and you see if they can pick out the different one. Right. Um and I did an early round of triangle tests, uh just sort of a test run with a colleague, and he was about 50% uh correct in identifying the counter tomatoes, um, which is better than what you'd expect um if he were guessing at random. Right.
+
+[44:37] Uh but not not great. Right. Not great success in differentiating. And then I did a a full, a much bigger round with multiple tasters, triangle tests. It was 24 rounds, I think, and in that case they got uh n uh nine out of the 24 rounds correct, which puts it just about in the zone of guessing at random.
+
+[44:59] Did you correct for where in the tomato they were tasting? I tried to, you know, admit it like my tests were not absolutely sound and and and uh you know scientifically perfect in their in how I designed them, but I did try to select cross-sections that had similar representations of uh seed quantity and uh the pulpy part. So I tried not to give someone a cross-section that was mostly pulp with one and mostly seed with another. Right. I mean the the issue one of the interesting things about tomatoes is that the flavor profile changes radically from the stem end to the tip.
+
+[45:35] Yes. Well, that's I would say that you that's there's I was seeing much more variation within the batches, whether refrigerated or countertop than between refrigerated and countertop. Sure. Like when I know when I'm serving tomatoes in the summer I'll take a the I'll take off the the end right by the stem, taste it. If that one's flavorless, I'll take off a few more slices until I get to the flavor I like and then I'll reserve those for another use and then put the awesome like other side up for service.
+
+[46:05] Exactly. Yeah there's tremendous variation even within one piece of fruit. And in fact even in the s when I had my the tasters blind tasting the t the the big batch of tomatoes and scoring them, I had scores for every single individual piece of fruit and I was seeing huge spreads of scores which is partly there's a level of arbitrariness when somebody decides what's a five or what's a set you know people tend to be somewhat consistent within their own scoring numbers but some people just tend to score low and some tend to score high. But even with that I could see variations were happening even within a piece of fruit that suggests exactly what you're saying which is that you have tremendous variation within a piece of fruit let alone yeah I mean I'd I would say I saw much more variation from fruit to fruit and within a fruit than between refrigerated and countertop. And actually the one thing I didn't mention is my latest my last round of testing it had actually gotten cool in New York City at that point and so those tomatoes were sitting out in average temperatures of about 65 to 70 degrees which I had never my whole theory was okay well if it's really warm the refrigerator is arguably the better place to go.
+
+[47:14] Exactly yeah there's just accelerated aging is happening, and so you're gonna have degradation at the end. Once they've hit their sweet spot, they're just going downhill. So it's just a race to the bottom. What's amazing is that what I was finding was that even in the around 70 degrees it was not as drastic drastic. The countertop was did better, but at the r it's still I wasn't seeing this dramatic refrigerated tomatoes are absolutely horrible and re and tomatoes stored at room temperature are great spread.
+
+[47:49] Oh sweet, I love that. Well maybe he stored some with his wet sheets. But the uh some in the shower. So after after reading some on the toilet shelf. Oh yeah, sweet, sweet.
+
+[47:59] Uh inside the toilet in the water on the shelf for inspection. So let me I mean let me just 'cause after reading it, let me just give you my thoughts on reading it. Yeah. And then uh you tell me what you think about my thoughts, and then they're gonna kick us off the air. Okay.
+
+[48:11] Okay. Um kind of like my initial hatred of the refrigerating tomatoes comes from, you know, uh like childhood days of you people would buy a tomato, a crappy tomato, it's underripe anyway, has you know, very little flavor to begin with, and then they would store it in the fridge for like a week and a half. Right. And then, you know, after a week and a half they would slice it and it had just turned into a now it's not as long as it tasteless, it's also mealy and disgusting. Yeah.
+
+[48:40] So it's mainly this mealiness that happens after long refrigerated storage, this tissue damage that happens after long refrigerated storage to these tomatoes, that you know, that that happens. You know what I mean? But so I think that you know, on reading it, I'm like, look it. So over a couple of days, you're not getting that kind of a damage to a tomato by storing it in the fridge, probably, right? Exactly.
+
+[49:04] And so what the fridge is doing is the fridge is saying stop. Stop ripening. Right. So if you get it to your perfect place, then maybe the fridge is a good place to put it as long as you let it warm thoroughly the hell up afterwards, right? Right.
+
+[49:21] And I think for things that don't get mealy, like grape tomatoes, I store them in the fridge for doesn't matter. I mean they lose quality, but they're not getting mealy on me. Right. It's mainly mealiness that I hate. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:33] And the uh and and I think some tomato varieties like uh are more susceptible to that. Or more prone to that. Yeah, more and I hate that. And the qual and the general quality level. I I did see some mealiness developing.
+
+[49:45] You know, for for for some of the tests, like the big the big tasting I did in my office, I knew which was which. Um so I was able to just do my own um tastes, and I could see that for the tomatoes that I perceive to be lower quality to begin with, uh, the mealiness was more of a problem in the refrigerator. Um tasters still had a harder time differentiating when they when they were blind. Um so I knew that I was I knew what to look for and I could I could see it to some degree. Um so there, you know, at the end of the day, there's no argument that the refrigerator is a great place to put tomatoes.
+
+[50:18] Um by the way, also I sh uh in case anyone wonders if they haven't read the stuff yet, he was storing them right on the counter, i.e. stem side down. Stem side down. Uh it's the only way to store a tomato on your counter. Please don't store it the other way.
+
+[50:32] Uh especially with an expensive tomato. So yeah, there we there but here here's my thing. The other thing I took away from it is that look at like I told you before, I buy these two tomatoes every year. The German stripes and the Ant Rubies. I know by color and feel exactly how I want them to be.
+
+[50:51] Yeah. So typically I'll buy them, I'll buy some that I'm gonna eat today. Right. And I'll buy some I'm gonna eat tomorrow, and then I'm gonna buy some that I'm gonna eat the day after that. And I leave them out on the counter, and they come perfect exactly when I want them to, like an avocado does.
+
+[51:08] Like, yeah. Like you're buying just like avocados. You're buying some ready to eat, some that are have a day left in them, and some that need a couple days. Right. And so I would never put those suckers in the fridge because I need them to get to their perfect spot.
+
+[51:18] Exactly. But if you have something that's at its perfect spot, I guess I might have to concede that it deges less in the fridge. Wow. That's what that's what I found. It degrades less.
+
+[51:31] It's less of an encrapping than having it ripened past its perfect point. Interesting, interesting stuff. You know I hate to do this, Dave. Yes, we have to go. Thank you, Daniel.
+
+[51:42] Maybe you can come back for some fermented shark. Can I really? Yeah. Yeah. All right, fermented shark next week, plus maybe a catch-up episode, cooking go juice.
+
+[51:52] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit.
+
+[52:16] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwardson Sons, third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. Hi, this is Celia Cutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Well, Nastasha the Hammer Lopez is uh later than me today, which is unusual. Unusual. She's on the L train.
+
+[0:52] Uh, I'm sure you guys all know the fabulous website. Is the L train F'd, but you know, spelled out, right? And apparently if you go on that right now, it would probably say They spell it L-A-T-E train. Really? They spell it out.
+
+[1:05] Yeah, L. I think it's just is the L train, you know, not French Connection UK, but properly uh spelled. Anyways. But while we're waiting for Nastasha, we have a new person in the engineering booth today. Liz, right?
+
+[1:22] Yes. Hello. Hello, how are you doing? How are you enjoying the uh engineering stuff while Jack's away? Oh, you know what they say with the with a cat's away, the mice will play, right?
+
+[1:30] Uh I guess, I guess, I guess. And uh um before we get too into it, we have two special guests with us today. We might actually, a third person might be coming. Uh, we got Don Lee, the fabulous Don Lee of uh what's the new bar called? Uh Boilermaker.
+
+[1:45] Boilermaker. But you don't drop the shot glasses into the you don't actually drop the boilermaker shot glass into the into the pine glass. You can if you want. There's no right or wrong way to do it. You can just, you know, bear in a shot next to each other.
+
+[1:57] You can pour it in, you can drop the shot. But do you you don't encourage this though? We encourage fun. So if you're having fun, do what you want. Do you leave enough volume in the pint glass to do a to drop a proper, or do you have to take a sip first?
+
+[2:07] You gotta take a sip first. We don't want to stiff you if you want to, you know, a good beer. Not an exact line, but you know, it should be to the top. British people. You know?
+
+[2:18] Like, don't get me stuck. I love you. I love you, Brits, but you and your obsession over your pour lines in your beers is a little bananas because like the c the the price, and we're also joined by the way, Paul Adams, the uh head honcho of uh uh popular sciences uh web press. Is that true? Was that your title, Head Honcho?
+
+[2:36] Senior Editor. Is that the same thing? I prefer Hancho. Okay, yeah, head honcho. And and and uh Stinky Fish Enthusiast.
+
+[2:45] Yes. Yes, which we're gonna get to in a minute. Because it's it's it's it's stinky fish Tuesday on cooking issues. As you might know, uh we are actually going to get to my backlog of questions. We're gonna record a special ketchup show.
+
+[2:58] And maybe I can even uh do a ketchup tasting for that for Nest Nastasha, who for years had said that the brand of ketchup that you use doesn't matter until Yeah, until recently she went away and someone gave her some off brand ketchup, but she's like, uh oh, I thought it didn't matter because I had just been eating, you know, eating heints this whole time. So we could do a comparative ketchup tasting, maybe some fancy ketchups, and some crappier supermarket ketchups. But I mean it's kind of like everything's rated against heints, wouldn't you say? Right, but are you gonna do the Steingarten, you know, McDonald's French fries the medium, or what are you gonna use? Okay, look, I love Jeffrey.
+
+[3:28] In fact, I saw him recently for the first time in a long time. Uh for those of you that don't know, Jeffrey is like, in you know, for me, one of the most influential food writers ever eat up. He ate. Although, you know what? I can never get the name of his book right because I confuse his book name with uh I'd said this in the air before with uh Oliver Sachs's book name, so it's like the man who who ate his wife with everything or something.
+
+[3:47] He mistook his wife for something to eat. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Something like this. But it's actually The Man Who Ate Everything, uh is his first book. Um and it's just, you know, I think it's one of the it's like of its style, like the seminal book.
+
+[4:00] Anyway, amazing. Uh amazing book. Anyways, uh, he's dead wrong. McDonald's French fries suck. In fact, that uh that style of French fries sucks.
+
+[4:08] It's like right in between like a shoestring fry, uh cooked to the point where it's basically a potato chip. I mean, I can kind of appreciate this. Um uh even a soggy, crappy thinner fry, but the fries that taste good for 13.5 seconds when they come out of the fryer and then turn to like uh hollow pieces of cardboard, which is kind of like how McDonald's French fries work, they suck. I hate them. So, what would be your uh medium for testing different kinds of ketchup then?
+
+[4:33] Well, okay, look. But what do you think about McDonald's fries? I mean, McDonald's fries are McDonald's fries. If you're on a road trip, you know, it's uh it's something you can, you know, count on. I mean, look, I can get first of all on a road trip, they're they get cold so fast because you're driving and you can't just like pound them.
+
+[4:48] You have to sit there and like the person in the passenger seat is holding the fries over and you're missing and you're dipping. I I would say you have to taste them straight and then taste them on uh hmm. I don't know, Nastasha, what is the you're looking well today? I'm gonna go see Fleetwood Mac. Oh, she's dressed up to see Fleetwood Mac.
+
+[5:05] Uh Nastasia, one of the largest Fleetwood Mac fans, hates Stevie Nicks. I don't hate it. I prefer the other one. Can you make more crinkling noises as you pass the mic, please? Because it's your dry ice.
+
+[5:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we we're doing an event at for the low line tomorrow, and uh we need dry ice. There's a low line now. Well, yes. Uh it's uh some abandoned like tunnel area in the lower east side, and they're uh having a uh a fundraiser tomorrow.
+
+[5:29] And we're one of the drink makers for it. So I'm gonna do um our our version. Don has his own version of the uh uh Harvey Wallbanger. We're gonna do our frozen version to the Italiano Esteliano uh name tip of the hat to Piper. That was one of his uh final punks for us before he moved on to uh, you know.
+
+[5:50] That's true. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh so we were about to eat some stinky fish and I got sidetracked. Uh we have a caller on the air and we were talking about boiler makers. Why don't I take the caller first so he's not sitting there all the whole time.
+
+[5:59] Caller, are you still there? Yes. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing good, how are you? Doing well, doing well.
+
+[6:05] What's your what is your question? Um, okay, so I actually have asked this already on America's Test Kitchen Radio, but um Chris and Bridget were not able to question uh out. You're cutting in and out a little bit. Try to try to rearrange your head in relation to the phone and and uh start again. I couldn't hear that last sentence.
+
+[6:25] Um I have actually already asked uh Chris and Bridget of America's Test Kitchen about this question and they actually weren't able to answer it, so I'm hoping you could help me out. Ooh, well we got we got four heads here plus plus Liz a separate head in the engineering room, so maybe we got maybe we got your answer here. All right. Um so um about two years ago I was in a lab um for biology and uh one of the experiments is where we took salivary amylase and um tested its effect on a dish of agar jelly. And the idea is that the enzyme can actually break down the starch into sugars.
+
+[6:59] And um I was wondering if you can have that same effect with like an egg yolk on fruit, because I know egg yolks contain amylase. So I'm wondering, can you buy like a really crappy piece of supermarket fruit that's totally unripe and put the egg yolk on it and have it like magically ripen um artificially. My understanding of it is that while there are some enzymes in uh egg yolk, and I guess those are the ones that make custards uh turn to crap if you don't cook them through enough, right? Um that's my memory, it's been a long time. Yeah, that they're relatively uh low in activity compared to um compared to commercial preparations or for instance saliva.
+
+[7:40] Um better off spitting on it. Better off spitting on it, uh, aside from the fact that you'd have uh egg yolk on it. But the the more interesting thing that you bring up is that uh ripeness isn't just a function of uh sugar. So ripeness is oft times a uh an increase in sugar, but concomitant with lots of other changes. For instance, sometimes a reduction in acid, sometimes acid is stable, it depends.
+
+[8:04] Like apples, the acid in apples will slowly decrease over time as it ripens. Um the creation of uh volatiles, especially kind of like higher uh flowery and esterine notes, things like this, are created during the ripening process. So it's not all starch to sugar conversion. However, liquor companies make a very good business out of taking things like potatoes and converting the starch in them into sugar without having to go through any consume you know time consuming step like fermentation. So they just dump amylases into it.
+
+[8:35] But remember, uh enzyme. There's alpha uh amylases and there's beta amylases, and there's different ones that are uh meant to operate at various different um uh points. But if you have like, for instance, a puree of unripe uh product, I would recommend add and you but you just wanted to sugar it up. Let's say you're doing like potatoes or something, right? If you have a lot of pectin, I would I would add a pectin uh pectonase enzyme to thin it out so that your other enzymes can work more effectively.
+
+[8:59] And then uh usually they do a two-step process, two different enzymes when they're doing conversions for things or more, like shotgun enzyme approaches. I call them when they're doing things like fermentation for potatoes. I forget the names of the enzymes that they use, but uh uh novozymes makes a bunch of them gusmer is the place. But I don't think any I've tried using just straight amylase from a brew shop, and uh I think they're cr they're I was very underwhelmed. Very underwhelmed by it.
+
+[9:29] Um also remember that uh for your amylases to work properly, they have to have access to the starch in the in granules. So unless you like let's say you take an underripe apple. So when you taste an underripe apple, one of the characteristic nodes of an underripe apple is a starchy flavor, and you can see almost feel it when you cut it with a knife, it goes shunk and it cleaves because it's starchy. The only starch is really if you lick that apple instead of eating it, you can actually get that kind of starchy taste from it. And uh the um the that starch can be is available to be converted by uh an amylase.
+
+[10:01] Uh however, the starch uh intact starch is typically not. So you would need to uh functionalize the starch, aka cook it, and which is what they do when they're doing uh when they're mashing out or something like this. Usually you'll you'll you'll bring the ward up so you can hydrate the starch and then it's more available. Back me up on this, Don Paul. Yeah.
+
+[10:21] So uh so I would recommend you gotta do all those, but chewing and spitting out is a time honored way of increasing the sugar content of uh starchy products, although it's it people find it gross. But if you're doing it for yourself, or if you're doing it. I don't really want to spit on my fruit, so I don't think I'm gonna do that. Well, you're not gonna sp spin on it, you're just gonna chew it and spit it out. And then ferment it.
+
+[10:41] But even if you just keep it in your mouth, you keep chewing it, you'll feel it change over time in on your tongue. I really I've never done it. Like to a potato I've definitely done it with rice. So like even just like the the plainest of white rices, if you just you know keep it in your mouth, keep chewing on it, wait a like you know 30 seconds to a minute, it'll become sweeter. Hey Stas, you ever seen me chew something for a full minute stuff?
+
+[10:59] No. I like full like millisecond more like I'm like I'm like I almost I I almost got kicked out of a Michelin starred restaurant in s in Spain because the guys couldn't come to the table fast enough to explain what the hell they were doing. It was already gone. And like the actual the chef came out and was angry with me I'm like well you know just don't talk so goddamn much so excuse me don't talk so much family show uh and let me have my food and eat it right or or serve everyone else and then wait or like put a cloche over mine or something you know something. Because I eat very quickly real quick I know this is your ketchup show but if you have time I've got two more quick questions to ask all right go go quick while Don is setting up our fish products.
+
+[11:40] Okay. Um so I've got two uh all clad Teflon pans and the finish has been totally ruined on them from like use and abuse and scratching them on accident stuff like that. Um I don't want to ditch two really nice pans um I feel like the metal underneath is fine so um I actually have access to a lot of like stainless working equipment like polishing and stuff. Right. Is there any way to the Teflon finish off the pan and functionalize the pan into a standard uh stainless non uh regular sticking pan like normal yeah sure I mean uh yeah usually it's Teflon over uh aluminum though.
+
+[12:15] You're sure it's uh the the undersurface of it is stainless, right below the Teflon. Usually it's it's it's like the old school like V3 pan, so I think it's a sandwich of stainless aluminum stainless. That's a good point. I didn't think about the fact that it might just be aluminum and then Teflon. Yeah, but uh Teflon, uh, as abrasion uh resistant as it is, uh, is no match for a uh a very quickly spinning wire brush attached to a four and a half inch angle grinder.
+
+[12:41] But uh, you know, then you're gonna have to polish and and buff out, and you want to make sure you get all the uh Teflon particles off because uh it's gonna be more apt to uh you keeping those things straight, Don? Which one's which? Yeah, you're more apt to uh you know have uh you know little Teflon particles and people are more and more worried about like burned little Teflon particles every every five minutes. I see them. I hear more people upset about uh P what P F O what is it P F O A's that perfluorinated something or others?
+
+[13:11] Anyway, okay, what's your what's your next one? Um what is the deal on the Searsol? How can I get one? Are you gonna offer them for sale on Amazon? We are.
+
+[13:20] There's not that many left. In fact, I'm glad you asked this will be the update uh for the Sears all for right now. Uh the international ones are going out tomorrow. Oh tomorrow? They're shipping tomorrow, and all we're doing is waiting on the uh the handoff from our importer into Amazon, and then they'll ship out.
+
+[13:39] So literally, in order to give something to Amazon, you need to have an appointment, uh, believe it or not. And so they're making that appointment, but we hope it happens this week. As soon as I get confirmation that everyone from Shop Starter and Kickstarter has been uh had their product sent to them, I will then mail the residual Sears all, of which there are gonna be how many styles? Like 300? 350, probably.
+
+[14:00] 300. Uh I'll mail them mail them to Amazon and they'll just go up on Amazon Prime ready ready to to go. Awesome. Awesome. Good deal.
+
+[14:09] Okay. Um if I miss out, I'm probably gonna have to like hack my iron or something out of a Boston Shaker or whatever. But yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't obviously I can't recommend infringing uh our patent or uh doing things that are unsafe, but you know, but it is a fun project. All right, fair enough.
+
+[14:26] Alrighty, thanks so much. All right, Don, back to you for a second with the boilermaker. Yes, sir. Uh I forget we were we're talking about boilermakers and and and the drop and the drop and it's sip. Oh, and the freaking, yeah, the British with their pores.
+
+[14:40] Here's the thing the price is arbitrary, so why does the pour have to be exact? Same with the Germans, the little wine glass with the line etched in it. You ever seen those? Well, so you know, historically there's the fact that it was uh something that was mandated so that you subs that it was trying to protect the customer. So the government would say that you have to have this line so people know that this is what it is.
+
+[14:58] And in in in England, they take the weights and measures very sp uh very seriously. So even jiggers, if you're producing a 2550 milliliter jigger, you can't first of all you can't make a uh 3060, it has to be 2550, because that's what is uh recognized by the weights and measures, and then it has to be certified by them. So they're they just are obsessive about uh making sure that everything is right for the for the folks. And then after that, it's really just perception. At this point, people have an expectation of what it's gonna be.
+
+[15:24] And if you, you know, it's like even if you order a cocktail today, if you uh go to like a hotel and they give you an absurdly large uh VSTEM glass and they give you a martini to the top, like no one wants to drink that all the way to the bottom. It'll just be warm by the time it's the bottom. But if you give them the the right amount of drink, you know, that uh in in a large glass, people feel like they're at that they've been chips. I'm familiar with this problem, that's why you use a smaller glass. Exactly.
+
+[15:44] But the fact of the matter is it's all it's all perception and not actual kind of mandates and these weird There's another caller. Alright, uh okay. After this, we gotta we gotta eat some we gotta eat some fish. Caller, you're on the air. Hi David, good afternoon.
+
+[15:57] Uh really uh enjoy the show and also I'm really looking forward to uh your book coming out. Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Pretty soon.
+
+[16:04] Pretty soon, very soon. Yeah, terrific. Oh, I had a couple recipe questions. I hope uh you could help me with. Um I've heard you talk about um making onion ice cream.
+
+[16:13] Sure. Um I was wondering um how you did that. Uh do you caramelize the onions? Do you pressure cook them? Or how do you how do you do that?
+
+[16:21] Well, um you could I guess we we never caramelize them first. You could caramelize them first, I guess, or afterwards. Uh but we we pressure cook them in milk and then blend it for like 20 minutes uh and then uh blend and then use strain and then use that as the uh milk base with the with the cream. So um and it that works. If you want more of a frankly, I would actually just if you wanted to get more of a brown note, I would just add brown sugar rather than caramelized, because my the only issue you might have is that you might develop some stable Usually when I pressure cook, I pressure cooked uncooked onions, and I don't know whether you'll develop some more stable, sulfury stuff if you pre-saute and kind of set the flavor of the onion before you pressure cook it.
+
+[17:07] Usually I slice it into rings very quickly, throw it in milk and pressure cook it right away. So I don't let it sit around all the time and develop that kind of stale onion flavor or any of any of that kind of any of that kind of jazz. Uh but yeah, it's a legit, it's a legit ice cream. I mean, it's on the savory side, but it's legitimately an ice cream. Have you guys ever been to the demos when we've done that?
+
+[17:25] Uh no, I've never tried your version of it, but have you ever tried it with uh the Maui onions? I've heard they're like much sweeter to begin with. Really? We still gotta pressure cook those suckers. No.
+
+[17:32] Stasia, you've had the onion ice cream, right? Yeah. Did you like it? Mm-hmm. Wow.
+
+[17:36] And now Nastasha likes it. You know that it has to be a legit product because she there's nothing. Booker and Nastasia are the two people that love to hate the stuff that I do the most. And that's kind of why I like keeping them around. I mean, Booker, because he's my son, but Nastasha, because, you know, she's a good one.
+
+[17:50] It's a vital role. Yeah, what? It's a vital role. It is a vital role. The hater.
+
+[17:53] Yes. Yeah. We gotta write a song. Is there a song called The Hater? There's a Joker.
+
+[17:57] Can we do a new version called The Hater and You're the Star? Sure. Sweet. Alright. Cool.
+
+[18:02] Alright, well, thanks. Alright, so on to fish. If you don't mind, I was also trying to um make your um first aid cocktail at home. Will that work with agar clarification? No.
+
+[18:15] I mean, look, you can clarify with Agar, but uh I found that uh drinks that are traditionally meant to be uh kind of Houstinos or really thin when they're agar, especially because remember you have to add water when you're doing an agar-based thing anyway. And so it just it never bec uh becomes kind of uh awesome. Here's what I recommend you do, because first date lasts forever. So here's what you should do. You should get the dates, you should get whichever spirit you're gonna make the first date into because we've made it with various different ones, blend it uh a high speed with SPL, and then just put it in a cabinet for like a month and uh and then rack it off.
+
+[18:51] And you know, you might not get like a hundred percent, but you're gonna get a lot of settling, and you're gonna get excuse me, a significant amount of clear stuff on the top of it. Oh, nice. No, that's what I recommend. But it takes a while, but it's fine because first date doesn't go bad. That's the method known as God centrifuge.
+
+[19:09] Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I guess that's true. Yeah, thank you very much.
+
+[19:14] Appreciate it. I appreciate your help. Alright, cool, thanks. Hey, Paul, you have these kind of contacts. Can we get into one of those NASA uh AstroNath centrifuges and just hold the bottle of uh it's only a couple G's, though, it's probably not enough to do much.
+
+[19:25] I think they go up to seven G's. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean uh well, we're doing a couple thousand G's, but I wonder whether you could visibly see settling in a bottle of Houstino if you're holding it in your hand. Probably.
+
+[19:36] In a in an astronaut centrifuge. Insofar as you can see anything at seven G's. Well, because your eyes are peeled back. Yeah, well, you know, Paula's been on the vomit comet. Did you know that?
+
+[19:44] I think we might be on the vomit comet in about 20 minutes here when we're eating the hotel. So why don't we talk about the fish that we have first? But we have some non-spinky fish that was mailed to us uh by a longtime listener, John Riper. Right? Yep.
+
+[19:57] Yeah. Uh thank you, John. So he did he fish these he fished these, right? I think he fished these. He's fish these?
+
+[20:02] Mm-hmm. All right. So uh where are they from? What river? Do you know?
+
+[20:05] Yeah, I can tell you in a second. Alright. So uh for those of you that I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what your background is because I'm not talking to you. You're you're listening to a podcast. But um so salmon, right?
+
+[20:17] Uh there's a bunch of different variables with a salmon. We're not talking about the latter variables like uh harvesting or any of this other nonsense. But aside from your standard kind of farmed or uh or uh wild, right? You have uh which run they're from and then which species they're from. Bo the species obviously affects what species it is and the waters it come from are gonna affect things like uh fat content based on how cold the waters are, etc.
+
+[20:42] etc. This is what he said. He has two different wild Pacific salmon. The Lewis and Clark expedition ate a ton of salmon when they ventured out to my corner of the globe. Most of it was dried and they came to hate it.
+
+[20:51] But Mary Weather Lewis later wrote that the fresh king salmon he ate here was the finest fish he ever tasted. I wouldn't argue with that, although some people think Coho salmon is just as good as Chinook. I'm sending you some of both so you can compare for yourself. But I'm not sending them as fresh fish. I've smoked them instead.
+
+[21:07] But they're not the hard, dry chunks that commercially smoked salmon tend to be. They are dry cured and cherry wood smoked, but both the curing and smoking are a lot lighter than you typically find. So these fillets are still perishable, but they are a lot less delicate than raw fish. Well, I'm not gonna say I'm anti-coho, but uh, you know, I don't fly around in uh coho helicopters, right? Like it's chinook is the freaking helicopter.
+
+[21:28] I saw two Chinook helicopters out my window in Manhattan yesterday. Yeah. I don't know why there were military troop transport helicopters in Chelsea. Is it flee? Is it Fleet Week?
+
+[21:37] No. Well, you know, they're a lot of helicopters. Oh damn, strength! Strength, Paul. Strength.
+
+[21:44] This is why, you know, Paul just can't be beefy. Alright, so let's taste this before we get to our our crazy uh craziness. So okay, which one's which? So the one on the right is the the coho and the tasteless. Why are you sitting here not eating?
+
+[21:56] You guys are making me angry. Um I think salmon's a delicious product. Do you like salmon? Mm-hmm. Are you literally eating bubblegum right before you taste the salmon?
+
+[22:05] No. No, yes. Do a quick uh shot of Brennan. Oh, was it? Why don't you just why don't you describe what we're gonna be uh drinking here?
+
+[22:14] Uh we have some uh Icelandic schnaps here. It's uh it's like aqua vete from Iceland. Uh Paul was uh kind enough to uh hook us up with the the the the US importer of uh Brennan. Who contacted me on Twitter when he heard we were going to be eating fermented shark today. And by the way, by the way, John, who's a stickler for details, which I appreciate, um, took pictures of the actual fish they came from and took both um fillet pieces from the same section of fish and labeled them with marks.
+
+[22:43] Yeah. Which is so that's fantastic. That's fantastic, right? Uh this is also a really delicious fish. I think I prefer the one on the left, but I'm a f I'm a fat ear dude.
+
+[22:52] Like, what do you what do you do? What do you do? What do you prefer? Which one's the one on the left? I wasn't paying attention.
+
+[22:57] The left was the uh the chinook. Well, there you go. It's called it's called the King for a reason, people. I think the other one's also delicious. Yeah.
+
+[22:59] But it's a different product. I mean, like, you know, I've come to expect delicious kind of I mean, I've come to expect like fatty being positive. Whereas now a lot of people like the leaner uh salmons because um they still haven't gotten over this uh stupid hatred of fat. Let's save that for another show. Okay, so what uh uh so we're drinking uh uh what's the how do you say skull in uh in uh do they have a special pronunciation of skull there?
+
+[23:27] Don went. Iceland, no idea. So though they we're gonna go Scandinavian style. You know, uh old Iceland Icelandic, the most uh conservative Norse language, and therefore uh people in Iceland can actually read the uh sagas because it's the closest language to Old Norse. And so uh respecting that, I will not clink glasses.
+
+[23:45] We will just look at each other and skull properly. Skull. Skull skull. Oh, that's good. That's good.
+
+[23:55] They don't wussy out. They don't wussy out on the uh on the caraway flavor. Caraway forward. Yeah, which I appreciate. I don't like sissy, sissy Akavitz with no uh speaking of sissies.
+
+[24:07] What are our glass levels? Oh I know. The the the bartender and the man of experimental eating prowess are the ones who haven't pounded their uh now Don. Don just came back from Iceland and was not involved in any sort of eruption. Why don't you tell us what you brought back?
+
+[24:21] Uh brought back some uh fermented shark. Uh well, so you and I did. We went on a trip to Sweden together, and you uh made the poor decision to try to bring back uh sastrami in your luggage. Managed to bring it back. Yeah, no, so Sir Strami, why don't you want to explain what surstramen is.
+
+[24:35] Surstrami is uh intentionally miscanned is it's herring? I believe. Yeah. Yeah. So the uh you know how you're not supposed to eat a bulging can if you buy can uh fruit?
+
+[24:44] It's it's it's a bulging can of uh fish that's gone dead. And uh it was quite horrendous. Paul joined us for tasting that. And I figured, you know, I'm at another uh Scandinavian place with something that's supposedly terrible. I figure I should share the the terrible with you.
+
+[24:58] So uh for those of you uh we talked about it on the air, and Paul uh blog blogged it, right, for Popular Science. I did. There's a video of Dave and McGee enjoying it. Yeah, so it was uh for those of you that uh I don't know, just were born today and don't know Harold McGee. Uh Harold McGee had possibly the greatest quote of all time as we were eating the surf stroming.
+
+[25:19] So surf stromming, what they do is is they they don't add enough salt to it, so it ferments in the can. And for some reason it always ferments in a way that doesn't pr uh produce any sort of uh botulism, but it does make some for some stinky stuff. And when you open it on a day when you see nothing, instantly everything's coated in flies. Everything's coated in flies, like your face, the surstrom, everything coated in flies, and the smell irradiates out from you know far and wide. And McGee, uh, who had had it maybe two or three times prior, was like this one is missing uh the vomit note.
+
+[25:51] I miss the vomit note. And I was like, wow, Harold, that's strong. Strength. Strength. Uh remember that?
+
+[25:58] That was crazy. And then Paul, Paul was the only guy standing next to McGee and just like pounding chunk after chunk. Like I had like three or four because I wanted to see if I could acquire a taste over this like you know, small amount of time. But Paul, I don't even remember this, Stas. Yeah, took a cab?
+
+[26:13] Took a cab home with it. But then what happened? Paul, the window wouldn't go down. I took a cab home with the leftover surstromming because we couldn't finish the can. And I was in a cab with where the windows wouldn't open.
+
+[26:25] What did the cabby say? He didn't say anything, but he looked very unhappy. I love that the cabbie had seen so much worse that he doesn't mention surstromming in the cab. Anyway, totally illegal to bring back. Is this stuff also illegal to bring back?
+
+[26:38] Not to my knowledge. Uh it's sold everywhere. I saw some vacuum pack, some uh but they're all kind of frozen. Uh there were no warnings in the airport like uh in Sweden where it said specifically not to put this in your in your luggage. Right.
+
+[26:49] All right. Well, okay, so so Hackerl, as it's called, uh Icelandic delicacy. Turns out that they have a boatload of these green land sharks off the coast of their waters, right? Right. And they catch them from time to time.
+
+[27:01] But the level of trimethylamine, I believe, I I I wasn't able to look up my scholarly stuff today, but TMA, I think it's TMA, trimethylamine. I don't think it's straight ammonia, is so high that the uh flesh is actually toxic to eat. Yes. And uh so get what's called shark sick. Well, I like that.
+
+[27:18] Uh you know, but there's also a lot of squids that are high in well, I guess that's more iodine, huh? Anyway, but like dogs apparently don't aren't offended by the smell, and they can get uh some sort of like uh TMA narcosis from eating too much of this of red. Yeah, which is kind of awesome. Humans can't I believe they also have Brenavin with it. Uh yeah, the dogs.
+
+[27:37] Yeah, yeah. Well, but the thing is like we're so repulsed by the smell that we can't eat enough of it to actually have it be toxic. That's one of the few things that's you know, kind of like that. Uh, you know, where but we're gonna try. But we're gonna try.
+
+[27:47] Well, no, but so then they what they do is they they uh bury it. They just bury it, bury the sucker in the ground, and some portion of you know, I I love how people figure things out. This is why people are so resourceful or dumb or both, a combination of resource dumb. Yeah. So they bury the shark for however long it freezes and thaws because you know, because it does.
+
+[28:04] They they pull it out of the ground and someone's like, This stinks, but differently than before. Yes. I'm gonna eat this thing. And then they actually hang it up for a couple more weeks to dry it out. Yeah, they gotta dry it out.
+
+[28:15] Well, the guy like probably tasted a piece, didn't die. He's like, well, I'm gonna hang it up for later and see what see what happens. This is how all this kind of crap happens. You know what I'm saying? Because you're starving, and it's either eat your eat your dead brother or eat this rotting shark, and you go for the rotting shark first, and the brother's kind of like a second call.
+
+[28:31] I mean, that's usually how this thing works, right? Yeah, okay. So the line between fermented and rotten is sort of a hazy one. It's a matter of opinion. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[28:42] I mean, like in a fine place, and uh they're you know, you know, it we've kind of lost it, but like when you travel to other places and you see cultures that still have a complete continuum from fresh to fermented in everything they eat, including grains and and uh you know main starches and stuff. We very rarely eat, you know, anyway, whatever. Uh so uh it's uh hung up to dry they smoke it as well, they smoke it, right? Isn't there a fire in there? I don't think there's a smoking, just uh just a dry hanger from what from at least what wikit Wikipedia tells me.
+
+[29:10] So the guy didn't use his uh his brother to smoke the fish instead of eating the brother use it as a as a as smoking fuel. Well, yeah, unfortunately there aren't very many trees in Iceland, so apparently the uh the primarily uh they use um sheep dung. So there is in fact a sheepdung beer that you can get in Iceland. How was it? Uh it was uh smoking.
+
+[29:28] Uh Don Lee, if you uh ever visit Don Lee uh as a very, very you have to be a very special guest, but if you visit him at the Cocktail Kingdom, he will serve you uh uh hor horse pizzle uh horse pizzle booze. Yeah, that was uh courtesy of uh Tin Ho who brought it back from Vietnam for me. Sweet. The label was amazing. Yeah, it was uh we will we we've been conquering awards for the past 20 years, and we will continue to conquer more.
+
+[29:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean 24 hour hotline if you have any questions. Yeah, I mean horse, you know, horse is uh you know uh you know a a uh a well endowed creature yeah yeah I don't what's that called what's that thing called it's uh it's a classic thing I have flew out of my head right now where you think you become something by eating something of like that like Jinseng looks like a a dude with a thing so you're gonna become a dude with a thing if you eat it or like you know what's that called that's it's a it's like there's Daniel Gritzer. Oh Daniel Gritzer is come back why don't you cut him some why don't you cut him some non stink first I'll I could use some more too we're gonna need to uh yeah I lost track of which salmon was which well the one in the package the Chinook is the Chinook and the other one's a coach. No I mean I think he means on the plate on the plate which you were eating it.
+
+[30:42] The Chinook one was the one that was a little bit more briny. And I think the fatty might have been whether it was the top or the bottom the belly side was a little bit fattier than the top. I think you're a little more briny Daniel you're just in time my brother pull up this uh weird white chair. You don't get a cushy seat because you're late how about that okay Daniel Gritzer from Serious Eats. So we have now uh the like uh the brains here oh by the way uh cocktail kingdom popular science serious eats and then like the two jokers from cooking issues here to tell we have a five heads are clearly better than uh none for uh tasting this uh stuff you want to you want a taste of this stuff before we crack open the hot girl yeah this looks like salmon isn't that yeah looks are not deceiving this is uh so this is the Chinook and this is the Koho.
+
+[31:32] Chinook and Koho. Well, it's tasty. Same same river, same smoking process. And take from the same piece, take the same piece as you go down, like belly versus belly. So you have to test versus that piece.
+
+[31:43] Oh, and you needs a shotgun. Alright. I mean, yes. I'm sorry, I'm eating on the air. Okay, here we go.
+
+[31:59] Drum roll. Open the hockerel. Oh. It's already hot. Ektahockerl.
+
+[32:12] It's only a hundred grams uh nut. We could pound this. Oh, oh, it's it gets got on me. Oh, geez. I hate these plastic containers.
+
+[32:24] Alright. That's nothing. That smells like that's nothing. People, people out there, Gordon Ramsey, Gordon Ramsay, I'm calling you out. You are a sissy.
+
+[32:34] Isn't this what he isn't this what he ate and he puked? You were a free. You were a freaking sissy. Yeah. I figured, you know, if anyone can take it, it would be us.
+
+[32:42] You know, the number of times we clean down stuff at the end of the night using uh just a windex, it's like ammonia city. Yeah, it's just ammonia. It's not it's not death. Like surstroming is the smell, you're smelling your own decay and rot. You're smelling like liquefied version of that dude on the subway who clears out the subway.
+
+[33:01] You know what I'm talking about? You're you're like this the stuff that's kind of dripping like from him, like that is what you uh get from Surstroming with an additional note of some other nastiness, plus ammonia. Plus ammonia, right? This just smells like you spilled a little ammonia on your on your fish. Pass this around, let's get our impressions.
+
+[33:23] It's also supposed to have plenty of urea. Uh yeah, yeah, yes. Oh, okay. So let's. Well, we can't do a break.
+
+[33:31] We're about to taste it. We'll do a break in a minute. We'll come. What we'll do is we'll do a tasting and then we'll go do a break and we'll come back. But I am I'm telling you that anyone.
+
+[33:40] Who's it to say a bunch of people have said this is the worst thing they've ever eaten, right? Anthony Burdain said it was the worst thing he's had. Listen, I've met that guy. It didn't seem like a cis. Did his sister try it?
+
+[33:50] Maybe that's who tried it. Anthony Burdain. Or what is it called? Uh like uh Tony Reichel. What's his like mash up?
+
+[33:58] Yeah, Don knows. Uh yeah, it's uh Ruth Reichel uh Anthony Burdain. I can't remember. It's a Twitter. Yeah.
+
+[34:04] Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not saying that first of all, obviously men don't have a stronger constitution than women do, but I just like calling people sissies. Right? That's okay, that's fair, right? Totally.
+
+[34:14] Alright, take a piece, everyone. And then we're gonna seers all it to see what that does to the ammonia, because ammonia is volatile. And then we also have some lemon here to see whether we can uh cut some of the stuff with the lemon, but I don't even think it's gonna need it. Yep. Oh, I mean this.
+
+[34:27] I eat stinkier stuff than this on a regular basis. Eat that tastes good. That tastes good. It's kind of salty. Very chewy.
+
+[34:41] Oh you're all you're all you're all you're all complete wusses. Good as stretching it. No, it's got a good thing. I could say it tastes good. Yeah, it's got a good texture.
+
+[34:51] It's got a little ammonia. Here, give me a f give me a f give me a fork and let's put the sears all together. Here, hand me the cerez all. We should take a break now. Alright, let's take a break and we'll come back with some more uh hackeral issues here on cooking issues.
+
+[35:20] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Pork.
+
+[35:44] Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham.com. Hi, how are you? My name is Andrew WK. They say when things are very delicious, it must be Heritage Radio.
+
+[36:03] Wait, we have Andrew WK on uh as our one of our people saying stuff. For some reason he really likes food. Come on, really? Yeah. Does that mean he's gonna allow us to say uh he's gonna allow us to play party hard?
+
+[36:17] Oh my god, that's awesome. You you don't you know him, right? You know who he is. Yeah, awesome. I appreciate that.
+
+[36:22] My son loves Dax loves the show that he had on Cartoon Network called Destroy Build Destroy. Where like teams of like usually a parent versus like it's usually like it can be jocks versus uh cheerleaders or parents versus sons or whatever, parents versus kids, and they they blow up a bunch of crap and then they recombine it and do challenges with the recombined stuff. But like everyone hated it because they're like, it's not a cartoon, and I can't wrap my head around Cartoon Network doing something that's not a cartoon. People are weird. People are weird.
+
+[36:50] Okay, look. So I got some hot girl here, and I got uh what's this called? A Searsol, and uh here we go. I'm gonna try to search all technical difficulty. So it's toasted up nice.
+
+[37:03] Alright. Shark is not a fatty fish. No, not at all. Well, that looks lovely. Well, taste it, then.
+
+[37:11] Whoa. You don't want the first bite? No, I mean I look, you know. Host. Host.
+
+[37:16] Host with most. Yeah, all right. So what do you think? Better or worse, same. Maybe better.
+
+[37:26] Better? I like it better. Yeah. You got a little more texture on that or? Well, the the the you know, like I say, ammonia is quite volatile, so I should be able to drive off at least a lot of the ammonia that's on the surface just by uh twisting it up a little bit.
+
+[37:46] It's dumbly triangle. Oh, this actually well, just to give the uh the listeners what uh what I'm looking at here, it is uh slightly bubbling on the outside, so some of the oil the oil has come to the surface. A little light charring on the side. It looks delicious, uh let's give it a try. Yeah, no noticeful ammonia on the outside.
+
+[38:00] It has the smell of cooked fish. Yeah. Looks sort of like a chunk of pork valley from here. Yeah. Yeah, the the ammonia's a little more tame.
+
+[38:08] And you have yeah, you don't have that also that's sort of that cured. It's not quite a raw fish texture, but it's somewhere between round cooked when you don't when it wasn't search all, and here it's got a full uncooked texture. And by the way, the searzole living up to its name and uh serum all. Stas, what do you think of the first piece you had? Did you like it or no?
+
+[38:35] No, I didn't like it. Did you hate it or just not like it? No, I just didn't like it. Alright, so you try this one. Wait, no, and that Hall do it.
+
+[38:40] Paul loves it. Paul and I have to use the fork last because we're a little bit sick. Oh. Really? There's more fork.
+
+[38:48] There's more forks? Yeah, okay. Paul. You use my fork. This is my fork.
+
+[38:52] Here, Paul, you talk while I search. Now, are both these identical ones? Smells toasted. Uh yes, they're both uh two containers. Paul wants to take one home.
+
+[39:11] Oh. They're telling us to wrap it up. What? They're telling us to wrap it up. Oh, they all right.
+
+[39:19] We gotta clear one more piece from Stasha, one for me. You want to show what else we're eating here? Yeah, what's the bread, buddy? We have some uh finished rye crisps and some uh just some German uh rye bread. It's just what I could find locally.
+
+[39:30] Here, cut the cut the lemon, see what the lemon does, and Paul do we have to do simultaneous testing because they're cutting us off. And the ketchup show, when is the ketchup show, Stas? The ketchup show we can we can pre-record on it. Yeah, but when is it gonna be? So people know when to expect it.
+
+[39:42] Next week. We're gonna do it next week. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[39:45] So uh here, let me have one of those uh what are those? What are they what do they call these? Oh, it's not like a specialized land egg crisp, it's like the standard kind of rye crisp. It's a fin crisp from Finland. Fins, the fins.
+
+[39:55] Alright, listen. Uh this has been uh stinky fish. We heard a report from Stinky Fishland that uh it's it's not uh it's not that not as stinky as advertised. Not not as stinky as advertised. So uh if anyone there is from Iceland, if anyone can hear our voices and you're from Iceland, I'm calling you out.
+
+[40:12] Like this stuff is is completely tolerable. Uh I don't know what the heck you guys are are uh you know complaining about or thinking that you have some sort of like you know, I like a hardcore poise is as ammoniated as this, if it's gone over the hill, and I'll eat that anyway because I've already spent the money, even though I know it's not supposed to necessarily be that way. Yep. And uh I'm gonna say about that. What's the where country is it?
+
+[40:35] Is it is it uh Greenland or Iceland that has the seal stuffed with puffins? I didn't see any steel seal stuff with puffin. I saw a seal and puffin. Uh I did eat I think twelve animals in one day uh while driving around Iceland. So I like that.
+
+[40:47] How was the puffin? Puffin uh was uh had great puffin and had terrible puffin. Uh but puffin was a lot better than whale. The smoked puffin was delicious. I wish they they sold a puffin jerky, that'd be great.
+
+[40:57] Really? Yeah, I wish they did. Tell me, what's the puffin taste like? Uh it it again, it was just like uh almost like a uh uh like a duck jerky. It was uh had that kind of uh that gameiness the duck has, not quite like a like a white meat uh chicken, but uh it was it was delicious.
+
+[41:14] You know, it tastes like puffin. It doesn't taste fishy. It did not taste fishy at all. What about the bad puffin? The bad puffin was just uh it wasn't uh smoked long enough, so it was just kind of squishy in the center, didn't have that that smoke flavor all the way through.
+
+[41:27] It just looked like a bad smoking chip. So just poorly prepared. It wasn't the puffin that was bad, it was the cook. I blame the chef. Yeah, as usual.
+
+[41:34] It's usually usually that's the that's the way. Okay, so listen, thank you. Let's give it a shout out to John Riperg and I was about to say that, and you made me look like I was gonna forget. Thanks to John Riper for the delicious uh chinook and co-ho salmon. It's delicious.
+
+[41:48] We will eat more of that uh at the lunchtime here. Thanks to uh Don for bringing uh this uh hot roll to us and showing that uh it's not as difficult to consume as people make it out to be. Although if you're from Iceland and you and you think that the uh ECTA brand is somehow less uh hardcore than some brand that you have in you know, buried in your in your backyard somewhere, then fine. We'll try your backyard buried hot girl if you can get it to us. And I'm sure we'll get the same crew back to taste it.
+
+[42:16] Thanks to Paul coming in. Uh thanks to uh Daniel Gritzer, and this has been Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[42:44] You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. I'm Erica Whites, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to the catch up edition of Cooking Issues coming to you pre-taped. Actually, we're live right now, but we're not streaming live, right now, Jack? I mean, yeah, like technically we're always live. I mean, we're not dead. Like we're here.
+
+[0:43] Yeah. Well, I mean, like, but the thing is like, that never mean what is what does that even mean then? What does live mean? Like, if we're not streaming live, right? Right.
+
+[0:51] You can't really say it's live, because live implies that, you know, no no opportunity for I guess live implies no opportunity for editing. Right. Right? Although there's always an opportunity. Yeah, but be yeah, there is always an opportunity for editing.
+
+[1:05] Uh most importantly, self-editing. Uh but the yeah, I mean, I guess it's not like we have time to edit these things anyway, right, Jack? So not really. So it might so as good as live, because we're not gonna edit it. Anything we say is just gonna show up on the screen.
+
+[1:18] But don't don't bother uh picking up your telephones and calling because we're not at the studio right now. If you're listening to this, we're not here. Right? I mean, maybe we are and if you listen to this next Tuesday at at uh if you really want to get into it, uh I'm sure that most of the time when people listen to cooking issues, we're not here either. When we're podcasting us, you know.
+
+[1:34] Right. Yeah, but hang you know, but people do call in. It's like it's like, you know, live-ish. Yeah. You know.
+
+[1:40] Heritage Radio Network, live-ish. Yeah. Well, and like radio quotes. Right. Right?
+
+[1:46] I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. What do you think about this, does? I don't know.
+
+[1:51] I don't want to get into it. Alright, so listen, uh, we are, though, uh, as usual, joined with Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, and Jack back from uh back from where were you, Jack? I was in Louisville, Kentucky. And how was that? It was awesome.
+
+[1:59] Yeah, where were you doing? Cool town. I spoke on a panel called Mastering the Media. And did you in fact master the media? I was supposed to help others master the media.
+
+[2:11] I told them that podcasts are the wild west, and they seem to like that. Yeah? Yeah. Alright. And so, wow.
+
+[2:19] So, like rate actual radio is like Eastern Capitalist bankers, and this is like 18. We're all in an episode of Hell on Wheels right now. Yep. Like, I definitely don't get to be Colin Bohan and somebody else, somebody else gets to be Colin Bohan and not me. Um you watch that show, Stas?
+
+[2:36] No. I like that show. You ever been to Louisville, though? It's a cool town. It's a good town.
+
+[2:39] Yeah, it really is. It's uh, you know, uh, they got things that I like a lot. They got uh your whiskey. Whiskey is delicious. They have a lot of it.
+
+[2:46] Oh, you know what else they have? You'll appreciate this. I went and uh visited the Flavor Man. They develop all the soda flavors. It's like a lab, a flavor science lab.
+
+[2:55] And is it actually one man? Well, the flavor man is one man. His name is Dave, but he's got a pretty big team working for him. Like uh it's kind of a good title. Hi, I'm Dave.
+
+[3:05] The flavor man. Yeah. Right? It's a really cool place. I'll show you photos after the show, though.
+
+[3:09] Are the were you allowed to take photos? Yeah. Yeah. They've developed, I mean, they can like some they can disclose and some they can't. They didn't grind up your camera.
+
+[3:16] Do they tell you who uh who you like do they tell you who who the clients are? They can't tell me all the clients. He's like, listen, I do all of the polar brands of soda. Oh god. Yeah.
+
+[3:27] Hey, you know what up, you know what really ticks me off, Jack, about sodas? And Stas will back me up on this. Everyone drinks these not everyone. A lot of people drink these like flavored seltzer waters. You know what I'm talking about, Jack?
+
+[3:40] It started with that, you know, rancid lemon, fake lemon lime flavor that tastes like you dripped pledge into your into your water by accident. And then it was like raspberry and black cherry. Yeah, black cherry, yeah, yeah. So here's the thing, right? I'm all for people drinking things that they like to drink.
+
+[3:56] But the smaller bottlers, and now here's what really ticks, I think Stas off, right? Yeah. You hate this. Yeah. Some of the like larger brand names like Canada Dry, uh hire independent bottlers, right, to do their their bottling.
+
+[4:10] And these people run seltzer, God's seltzer, unflavored seltzer water, right? Soda water or you know, sparkling water for those of you that have never been, you know, near New York or whatever, because some people don't know what seltzer is. Do you know that? Weird. Weird.
+
+[4:26] Um they run it through the machines that have had these rancid flavors in them, and they poison so like it's always raspberry with us, right? You crack it open and you get these like raspberry note off your seltzer, and it ruins it. It makes it taste like it's like first of all, it makes you think, oh, they're not clean, they're unclean people. And then it also it's just no good, right? Stas, what are your thoughts on this?
+
+[4:47] Terrible. Have you no have you noticed this, Jack? Yeah. What the heck is wrong with people? You know what?
+
+[4:52] I've never had uh well, look, I don't buy seltzer outside anymore unless I have to, because I you know, I make my own. But uh have you ever had that problem with vintage? Vintage. No. Uh no.
+
+[5:04] No, actually, I haven't. No, God bless a vintage seltzer corporation. Yeah, what's your seltzer of choice if you have to buy it? Oh, I mean, I'm a New Yorker, so vintage. Okay.
+
+[5:12] Because vintage was the always, it was always uh two bottles for a dollar, right? And any real seltzer drinker only buys one liter bottles because anything less is a waste because you're gonna drink uh a full liter of it, and anything more is gonna go flat. And if your friend comes over to try and drink some and they drink out of the bottle, then you have to throw away two liters because I don't want the friend drinks out of the bottle. Oh my god, you know how it is, or at a party, or they'll crack open a two-liter at the end of the night and they'll pour one small glass and then the whole thing sucks. It's like it's look, any real seltzer drinker will tell you, right?
+
+[5:45] That first of all, you you you have to drink everything you buy within about a week because you know, you want you want first of all, you want to buy it at a place that has high turnover. So the place where there's dust on top of the bottles of vintage, just ignore because plastic bottles don't hold CO2 that well and they don't last that long, right? So go to a pla you know a place that gets a good turnover of vintage, buy buy a case of one liters. Like that's the way to do it, right, Stas? Yep, yeah.
+
+[6:08] Yeah. Uh I like how we're never going to catch up because we're not gonna answer any of the questions. Well, one more thing, by the way, Sears all's are shipping now. Uh we got the notice, actually, two of them shipped on Tuesday when we did our non-catch up show. One day, or we're doing a show on Tuesday, we can talk about that then, right?
+
+[6:24] What about Peter and Emma are gonna be? Yeah, they're gonna come. But anyway, but they're shipping, but uh like we've gotten a lot of flack on the uh Kickstarter over over the how long it's taken us to get the product out. Although we're three months, we're three months late. We're three months late, which in the Kickstarter terms is like not that big of a deal.
+
+[6:41] And I guess people think because there's not a lot of moving parts that there's not a lot that can go wrong when you're trying to make a uh something like uh like the Sears All. But you're incorrect. You know? You know what happened today, Jack? Somebody said on a on the Kickstarter, they said uh uh what'd they say, S what's gonna happen next?
+
+[6:58] Uh tape on the Amazon boxes won't hold. Oh. Just lame trolling. Like, you know what? Put your pants on.
+
+[7:05] Get out of your underwear. Get out of your parents' basement. Get out of your parents' basement, go to, you know, just go outside. You know, like if you're like me and you burn, wear a hat. But get outside, walk around.
+
+[7:17] You clearly have too much time to troll me. And I, you know, I wish everyone happy searing who ordered a Searsol. Yeah. And I hope I like really all we really want is for people to enjoy the product. That's all we really want.
+
+[7:28] Is it for people to have a good product they can enjoy? We don't want it to get ruined, right? Which was, you know, we just want people to, you know, we want it to be good for people. Uh except that guy. No, and I have another one.
+
+[7:41] I hope that I hope that, you know, the tape does fall off. His Amazon tape. That's right. I hope that box is a problem though, then after that. No, once once Amazon is, yeah, I guess what's still until it's in their hands, hopefully with with tape, hopefully a tapeless box arrives mangled, but still with a pristine Searz all inside to this person's house.
+
+[8:00] And you know what? I still hope they enjoy the Sears All. Of course. I hope they enjoy it. Uh Sear in good in good health.
+
+[8:07] And with good. Oh, oh no. And then he he he or she, I don't really know. Appended uh worst Kickstarter ever. Which me makes us worse than the people.
+
+[8:17] He's a comic book guy, then. Yeah, well, makes us makes us worse than uh people who actually never delivered uh a product. You know, I was I was compared uh on Twitter. This is by someone who actually just wants a Sears all, so it's not bad. They were just getting the some agile.
+
+[8:33] They were getting some agenda, right? Bernie madoff of cooking equipment. Bernie Madoff, I mean, correct me, but more of a Ponzi scheme, right? So if it was a Bernie Madoff kind of a situation, first of all, right, I mean, like, we would have scammed first like something a lot bigger than like a sixty five sixty five dollars, Searz all. But it would work more like this: listen.
+
+[8:57] Listen. Uh you send me one screen, and then I'm gonna get two people to send you screens, and we're just gonna keep doing this forever. Right? Two Sears all screens. That's how it would have worked.
+
+[9:10] That's if I was the Bernie Madoff of Sears all. It's a pyramid. It's a pyramid, sweet pyramid scheme. You know, pyramid schemes, like it never like ceases to amaze me how much uh people continue to love a uh pyramid scheme. You know there's a show, I don't know what network it's on.
+
+[9:26] It's called American Greed. You heard about this? I think Stacy Keach is the uh is the what's it called, the narrator for it. Remember Stacy Keach? The uh actor?
+
+[9:34] I I don't. I think it's him. He's he's played detective. He played like like Mike Hammer. Uh, you know, your namesake.
+
+[9:40] And um and so he narrates this thing on American Greed, and it's all about swindlers who have ripped people off with like things that are too good to be true, and it turns out they are too good to be true, and it's always like it's always like someone in Hoboken or Spokane that's like lost their life savings and now like they have to work at a gas station even though they're 85 and like you know, you know, incapacity. You know, it's horrible stuff. But then the commercials in it are literally like the commercials that I saw were to invest in what are clearly schemes. Like pyramid schemes. Like this one lady comes on, she's like, she's like, hey, and like I swear to God, I swear to God, that what they were talking about on the show was uh this guy who said, Listen, uh, I'm gonna guarantee you uh, you know, 12% a year off my real estate investments, and was buying just bunk like real estate that was worthless, and then taking all the new subscriptions and just spending it and paying the dividends out to people.
+
+[10:35] It's classic made-off style stuff, right? Needed to keep getting new people in because he wasn't making any money because he wasn't actually investing in anything worthwhile, right? Literally during that segment, there was a lady in a commercial who was like guaranteed returns on real estate investments. Can't lose. You know, just blah blah blah.
+
+[10:53] I was like, holy crap. I mean, like, the world is a weird place. Shame on you, CNBC. Oh, it is CNBC? CNBC.
+
+[11:00] Shame on you. Shame on you. CNBC with your money reporting. Uh okay, some questions. Finally, people's questions.
+
+[11:11] Oh my goodness. I just punched up the wrong thing. I punched up st oh, stop playing stereo lab. Hold a sec. My iPhone.
+
+[11:18] We're gonna get sued because we're not paying our BMI uh ass caps. It's okay if it's through an iPhone speaker through a microphone. I think then all rule all bets are off. Well, somehow, somehow I looked up drop uh dropbox to get my the cooking issues up, but instead it picked up uh stereo lab blips drips uh so let me get the actual uh questions up here. Oh, maybe I should switch back to the iPad.
+
+[11:40] I'm having some severe bad luck when I'm when I try to iPhone this thing, even with my new Fablet. Fablet. Oh, you're using that word. I know it's a terrible word. Why is it fab?
+
+[11:52] He is phone tablet. Fab, but it sounds gross. It says gross. Yeah, I don't like it. I only I only use it to be kind of like a jerk because it's it's terrible word.
+
+[12:01] Okay. Brandon Bird uh writes in it's not Brendan Byrne Arena, it's Brandon Byrd, very close. I would love for him to go to a concert at do they still call it the Brendan Byrne Arena? I don't know. Where did you see Fleetwood Mac?
+
+[12:14] Stas just saw Fleetwood Mac. You saw Fleetwood Magdalene? That's awesome. She said they played for four freaking hours. Three, three.
+
+[12:19] They played for twelve hours. They were they were their own opening band. Oh my god. Yeah. And and by the way, Stas, well known, uh, disliker of uh Stevie Nicks before, but now not disliked, just did not like her.
+
+[12:36] Compared compared to Christine McVeigh. Right. But now you more respect. She's the best. Yeah, that voice is really good.
+
+[12:44] Oh, don't go that far. Yeah. Still like Christine McCain. But you know, just now she has a presence on stage. Wow.
+
+[12:53] Ooh, Stevie Nickes? Yeah. Uh, you know who I saw, like uh actually, I guess a little bit later era in uh was uh Ann Ann Wilson from Hartch. Right? Ann Wilson, right?
+
+[13:04] She kicked from serious behind. It's awesome. She just tore up the stage uh when I was at Tales of the Cocktail. Oh. Yes, tore it up.
+
+[13:11] Love to see that. Okay. Uh Brandon Bird uh from Chicago writes in Hello, Hammer Dave and Jack, or whoever's working the boot this time. By the way, I fired up a Sears all last week, and uh she uh what was her name, Elizabeth? Yeah.
+
+[13:22] She was like, oh my god, the boards are breaking, and she just cut the she's cut the cut all the mics out. Oh wow. Because she heard anyway. Uh don't worry, we got Jack. Nice first day on cooking issues for poor Liz.
+
+[13:35] Yeah. There was lots of shark meat. Oh, all this check all this like fermented shark meat. Great. Yeah.
+
+[13:41] A few questions for you. I recently used my pressure cooker to render some ground beef fat inside mason jars, and I noticed a curious phenomenon. After cooking for two hours and cooling the jars down to room temperature, they still bubbled and boiled. Bubbled and boiled. Do you like the word boiled?
+
+[13:55] Or is it sound too much like like spore or Multiple? No, no, no. Boiled this fine. Boiled boiled. Uh somewhat vigorously, even after the jars were cooled to the touch.
+
+[14:05] What is up with that? Uh okay. So uh answer that first. So assuming you're doing the pressure cooking in uh in the jars, uh a la Modernist Cuisine has a section on rendering out lard in the pressure cooker because the good news about rendering lard in the pressure cooker is that uh okay, okay, look. Let's go through it.
+
+[14:24] When you're rendering not lard in this case, fat. When you're rendering fat, you need to get the temperature uh above, you want to get the temperature above boiling because uh not all the fat's gonna render out at a hundred. Anyway, so you and you need to uh you need to heat the fat up, not just enough to melt the fat, but to break it loose from its uh the connective tissue where it is and render it out and you get the cracklings and you get the well it depends, with pork, you get the crackless and you get the whatever else, right? You with me, Stas, kind of. The good news about a pressure cooker is that you can't uh you're not gonna boil off all of the water that's in it.
+
+[14:57] So you're gonna get basically a constant 200 and uh in Fahrenheit, constant like 250 something degrees Fahrenheit uh until you've actually steamed all of the water out. So it's a good way to regulate the temperature of the stuff that you're rendering so that it's not gonna get any burns in it, it's not gonna brown now, it's clear and beautiful and stuff like this, right? Still has a lot of the water in it though, so you have to then separate the water out or like solidify it. So this is like the the premise. Now, another thing that uh people do is they add baking soda to um to the fat when it's rendering, supposedly makes it uh whiter in color.
+
+[15:34] Baking soda is alkaline, so it's probably shifting, making sure that it's not too acidic. It's probably also reducing the uh you know the amount of uh free fatty acids. I don't really know, but it's like a a known thing to add some baking soda to it. Uh and uh and the monitor's cuisine guys do exactly that. So here is what I think is happening.
+
+[15:52] Uh baking soda uh starts to uh degrade uh at temperatures, even without so typically when you're using baking soda, right? You take baking soda and you add an as acid to it, uh, and then uh you get a reaction where you're uh you you are forming uh carbon dioxide, right? And that's how the the leavening works. However, baking soda, even not in the presence of an acid, will start to decompose and form carbon dioxide, uh, and it'll do that at temperatures inside of a pressure cooker. So my guess about what's happening, and I asked Chris Young about it too, uh asked him about it.
+
+[16:27] My guess is that um when you're heating up the stuff in the jar, right? You're decomposing some of the um you're decomposing some of the baking soda that's forming carbon dioxide. The carbon dioxide is then going into solution in the water, might also be in oil. I don't know about the solubility of CO2 into oil. I mean, I know N N2O is very soluble in oil, that's why we use it in whipped cream.
+
+[16:49] I presume CO2 is somewhat soluble in oil, but I really don't know. But uh there's also still water phase in there, remember. So what you're doing is is you're putting a large amount of uh CO2, or not large amount, but an amount of CO2 into um the uh liquid at a relatively uh high pressure, and I'm presuming that um when it cools off as the pressure decreases, the CO2 is bubbling out, or maybe it's still producing CO2. I don't know. It's to me it's gotta be a CO2 effect.
+
+[17:15] I can't think of anything else reason why after it's cooled to the touch it would continue to bubble unless it's continued production of CO2. That's all I can think about. And then as the pressure reduces, more stuff will bubble out. But on the other hand, as it cools, it becomes more soluble. So who knows?
+
+[17:28] It's a crapshoot. But this is the only thing I could think of, and Chris seemed like it seemed reasonable. But I don't know. It's an interesting phenomenon. Anyone else who knows, please uh write in and tell us.
+
+[17:36] Oh, and here's some here's some stuff. Uh this also, by the way, uh, he is a fan of these flavors. Really? Of these seltzer flavors. Like you, I'm a big fan of bubbles.
+
+[17:46] Hello, seltzer, and quite enjoy mixing carbonated water from my soda stream with fresh citrus juice. Do you like that word? Yeah. Uh I also quite enjoy citrus flavor carbonated beverages from brands like strong. That sound, man.
+
+[18:02] Yeah, like the can we can we just have that as like our like yeah, I gotta get that on the sound effects board. Yeah. Her flavored seltzer noise. Uh like Lacroix, Lacroix. How do you pronounce?
+
+[18:13] How do you think that like Americans pronounce this thing? La croix. I guess. The cro the crocs. LaCroix.
+
+[18:20] LaCroix, I guess. Americans? Yeah, LaCroix. Uh, do you have any insight as to how beverages like that are produced? Is it simply a matter of dosing carbonated water with essential oils or is there something else involved?
+
+[18:30] Okay. First of all, uh no, no, not essential oils. Essential, when you're using oils, oils have to be suspended in an emulsion. They're typically not clear. When you add them to the classic one of this is citrus beverages like uh sunkis, which aren't clear, they are a little bit cloudy, and it's because they have emulsified oils in them.
+
+[18:49] Those emulsified oils need to be stabilized. And so for short stabilization periods, you can act if you want to do this, you can do this. You can get essential oils and you can emulsify them with gum arabic uh and very strong into kind of uh uh a water slash uh or alcohol slash uh oil emulsion with gum arabic water. I would do water and then add stabilized with alcohol if you need to put it anyway. Boom.
+
+[19:11] So you have this like essential oil that's emulsified, it's gonna be cloudy looking, like white, cloudy, like chalky water. That you can then add to soda and you can drink it like that. It's fine. And because the the the emulsion size is very, very small, so you're not gonna get a lot of excess bubbling. It's not like adding like uh lemon juice to it or something like this.
+
+[19:29] You're not gonna get a huge amount of bubbling out, you're gonna be okay because the particles are too really small to cause a lot of nucleation, presuming you do it right. Right? So you you should be okay there. Uh in the business though, uh the gum arabic isn't stable enough to have it uh suspend for a long, long time. So what they do, what they used to do is they would use brominated vegetable oil.
+
+[19:53] And uh the bromine makes the oil, remember, oil's lighter than water. So the bromine that they add to the essential oil makes the basic oil droplet uh heavier because uh part of it is the essential oil and part of it is brominated vegetable oil. And that has a weight that's heavier than water. So when you add the oils together into the droplets, they get a relatively neutral buoyancy and they don't want to float out. And by adding brominated vegetable oils, you can get uh a citrus beverage that's gonna be stable through the next ice age, roughly.
+
+[20:22] But uh you know, that order of magnitude, or you know, till we have a nuclear war, whatever, whatever it is. Nuclear war, ice age, whichever comes first, uh, whatever. Um however, people don't like brominated vegetable oil anymore because uh there might be some health risk, etc. etc. And so people have moved away from it, and now uh like one of the replacements that they're using is uh something called sucrose uh acetoisobuterate or SAIB for not as crazy, which apparently is non-toxic, but I really know relatively little about it because I don't do that, I don't really do that kind of stuff for a living, right?
+
+[20:55] So I was gonna do that. But the way they make the clear beverages is they use uh um uh extracts, right? So uh the extracts are only stuff that are soluble in uh water and and alcohol, usually. Some of them will cloud when they're dissolved, depending on how they do it, but usually they'll compound those flavors such that they uh don't cloud up when they're diluted and they work. So the flavors aren't gonna be the same.
+
+[21:21] That's why these things don't really taste like uh real like you're losing whole parts of the of the citrus when they're doing that because they're adding only compounds that are uh that you know are gonna be soluble in water and stay clear. And there's specific people that make that. So you you you're gonna buy uh you're just gonna buy the extract that that's right for that. And by the way, just because the flavor is natural, I don't people do people know this in general. Just because the flavor is natural, flavor man, uh doesn't mean that it's the flavor that you are buying.
+
+[21:55] Yeah, we talked about this. Yeah. So usually if you say something has natural lemon flavor, right? And you don't want to say uh on it, although lemon's uh whatever, but you don't want to say on it uh natural lemon flavor with other added weirdness, right? What you do is you say the lemon flavor, it has to have some component from a lemon in it, right?
+
+[22:17] And then wamph. Wamp. Which W O N F with other natural flavors. And all it means is is they make purified chemical uh flavors from natural sources and then dope it back in. So there's really no I mean, in my estimation, no advantage really.
+
+[22:37] That's why like natural flavor versus artificial flavor, uh, like unless someone literally is doping something with a poisonous flavor, really means nothing to me. You know what I mean? It's like I I don't really care. Like I care, does it taste the way I want it to taste? You know what I mean?
+
+[22:53] That's all I'm saying. Yeah, he was saying nothing that's labeled cherry would ever have cherry in it. It's all benzaldehyde. Yeah, but it just depends on where they get it. If they get it from a natural source, then it's a natural flavor.
+
+[23:03] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then if there's like one molecule from a cherry somewhere in there, then you're good. You know, it's like it's it's it's an absurd thing. It's an absurdity.
+
+[23:12] That like, you know, we focus on it's because um as soon as you have something with uh a label, and then there's a rule for that label, then companies will figure out how to work around that label to make the product uh in a way that's good for the company to make that product that fits the letter of the of the law for the label. That's it, you know? Yeah, whatever. But anyway, I have no problem with with flavors as long as they taste good. Do you like apple jacks, Doz?
+
+[23:43] The cereal? Yeah, I love that. Right? But they they but what do they not taste like? Apples.
+
+[23:48] Yeah, they taste that's why I like it though. Yeah, well, there was uh we've talked about this on the air before, I think, but there was a commercial a number of years ago where these uh the kids were like, these don't taste like apples, and then Stas was on saying, but I still love them, right? Because in what in 87? Something like that. I don't know.
+
+[24:04] But like but the thing you were on the commercial? No, I don't know. Might as well have been. That's awesome. Uh might as well have been stuzz.
+
+[24:11] But like the the the thing is, the point is of all this, is that uh people like apple jacks because they taste like apple jacks, not because they taste like apples. And like whether the flavor is real or not, you know, artificial or natural, uh, you know, you you know, is not an if what you care about is not having stuff that's been dorked and mucked with, then real or natural is not the label you should be looking for, right? Whatever. Uh but's clearly doesn't care about that because she just wants her apple jacks to taste like apple jacks. Right?
+
+[24:43] Anyways. Fruity rings. Stas, uh, for a minute, I've if I can for a minute. The flavors of gummy bears that you like versus the flavors you don't like are which ones? I like the white ones.
+
+[24:56] And that's it? I I can deal with the red and the green, but the rest can go. Which are the ones you specifically don't like? Yellow and orange. Well, most people don't like yellow and orange of anything.
+
+[25:05] Jack, what are your thoughts on this? Is that true? She she's a believer that most people are not a fan of the yellow and the why? The yellow you get too much of a lemon pledge flavor? I mean, it depends.
+
+[25:14] As a kid, when you got a bunch of yellow and oranges of anything, and they it was always the majority. Oh, yeah. I used to buy the red is what everyone knows. Red ones, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[25:23] I used to buy the you know how Tic Tacs used to come in dual flavor packs, like they would mix, maybe they still do. You know what I'm talking about? Two colors in one? I used to love the yellow orange pack. Of course.
+
+[25:33] Oh, the orange Tic Tacs are good. Yeah, like those. Oh no. What about the Tangerine Lifesavers? No, I don't like orange flavored uh candies.
+
+[25:41] Really? Yeah. Do you like orange uh Sherbert or Sorbet? Yeah, I can yeah, but I wouldn't say. Do you like cream stickles?
+
+[25:48] Yeah, cream stickles good. Alright, because otherwise, we would have had a fist fight right here. I would have lost. But we would have had no, you know, you have the simian crease. I have the simian crease, but like I don't have like a high enough level of anger right now.
+
+[26:00] That's true. You know, it's like, yeah, so I have a I have a simian crease. Tell them what it means. What it means is is that you know how what are those two lines? Anyone a palm reader here?
+
+[26:09] No, but if you have multiple lines in your palm, everyone has multiple lines in their palm. Yeah, and you usually have one that's like coming around your thumb and curving down, and then you have one that curves up coming over from your pinky, right? Yeah. I don't. I got one line that goes straight across.
+
+[26:22] That means it's a simian crease. So either I'm a monkey, hence the same. Then certain certain, you know, people with genetic dispositions towards mental retardation also have it. But Wee Pop, you know, who I now feel for deeply because he had his Kickstarter uh delays with uh Nomiku from Thailand. Uh came he's like, Oh, in Thailand, that means that you're going to murder someone by accident.
+
+[26:47] I was like, what the hell? Who the hell has like this specific A like uh palm reading thing? Well, I think like after autopsy stuff, probably they were like, oh, that man has it, and that man has it, and then they all murdered somebody by accident. Yeah, but it was by accident. It was specifically by accident.
+
+[27:06] It was specifically they did it, but they were doing it by accident. Which seems like I got in a fist fight. Oh, well, he didn't say fist fight, you're just adding this now. You're just gonna be able to do that. No, no, I'm saying that's probably what happened.
+
+[27:17] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. All right, last question from Brandon Bird. Also, a couple weeks back, you answered a question about storing flowers and other powdered starch products in a freezer uh uh from someone who had an allergen concern.
+
+[27:28] We have another question. That was who had the allergy because it was it, Sam? Anyway, I'll look it up. Uh you mentioned you regularly store high-end flowers in the freezer that you haven't noticed any appreciable decline in quality. I'm wondering why that's so, considering that you advise against storing baked starch products like bread in the freezer because of the negative effects caused by starch retrogradeation.
+
+[27:44] Best uh Brandon Bird. First of all, freezing bread is okay. Freezing it. The problem is uh refrigeration storage is in bread. So, and the general rule of thumb in the uh in the is literature, the industrial literature, I don't want to say scientific, it's more industrial literature, on bread baking and bread storage, is that uh a single freeze thaw cycle that you go through, uh, and by the way, you want to freeze it quickly and you want to thaw it quickly, but uh that single freeze uh uh thaw cycle is worth about a day's worth of storage in terms of staling at room temperature, which is why if you're gonna but once it's frozen, you don't lose anything.
+
+[28:21] So if you're going to freeze bread, right, and you're freezing it today, right? Then it's like when you thaw it to eat it right away, it's like you're eating it tomorrow night, right? But if you wait till tomorrow night to freeze it, it's like you you're you're losing another day after that. Does that make sense to us? So it's the if freezing itself isn't the problem, it's as it goes in and out of freezing.
+
+[28:44] The the real problem is is refrigeration temperatures. Okay. The other thing is that the flowers don't fit those rules at all because starch retrogradation only applies to starches that have been cooked, right? And and you know, hydrated with water, and then over time, those um the starches like uh recrystallize, right? And so then the water becomes a mound that goes stale.
+
+[29:08] So starch retrogradation is only a problem in starches that have been uh cooked already, and where you don't want to have them uh recrystallize. Yeah? Make sense? Okay. Uh oh, and he also adds uh P.S.
+
+[29:23] going through your back episodes. I noticed that you solicited names for the product that became the Searsol. Being late to the game, I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring in hopes that you come out with a larger format tabletop broiler in the future. My suggestion, the Hellbender. Hellbenders are monstrous amphibians, the largest salamanders native to North America.
+
+[29:37] They look scary and have a sweet name. I know you like salamander puns. Piper really used to like salamander puns. And Hellbender sounds much better than Sally Hander, sorry, pipes, or uh Sally Mattock, no offense. He says no offense to Piper.
+
+[29:50] Nummy, don't worry. Uh looking for Piper, whatever. I don't know. I don't if I see him, I'll ask him. Uh looking forward to getting my all-searing eyes sometime soon.
+
+[29:57] Cheers, Brandon Bird. Okay. Uh Michael writes in. Hello, Dave and Nastasha, and all mother masters of sound. Ooh, I like how you like that, Jack.
+
+[30:04] Master of sound. Is that what you said? Yeah. No, and all masters of sound. Okay.
+
+[30:12] I like Master of Sound, though. I like Mother Master of Sound. That's my next band. Mother Masters of Sound. I like that.
+
+[30:18] Sweet. Someone make that band. Like just do some garage, what's it called called? Garage Band on your new iPhones. Oh, wait, do you want to tell them about the new baby Jesus here?
+
+[30:27] No, I don't want to talk about that. We don't have a name for him yet. Okay. There well, although Daniel Gritzer, who is here on Tuesday, came up with a sweet name. What was it?
+
+[30:35] Um Santa's Little Hipster. Oh, yeah. Santa's little hipster. You know who we're talking about, Jack? No.
+
+[30:42] He's new. Oh, I know who you're talking about. The new indie Jesus. Yeah, yeah. But he's not, he's not Jesus related, but he is he is Christmas related.
+
+[30:51] He's Santa's little hipster. Is awesome. And I don't want anyone, he's not a dwarf. Don't come back and say that we're he just looks like an elf with like hipster elf. There's a reason for this nickname, yeah.
+
+[31:03] Yeah, yeah. And it has nothing to do with his height, so don't write in and say that we're bad people. Okay. Uh how much salt do you add to food when cooking, not brinding? Is it possible to calculate?
+
+[31:13] Is it based at all on water content in food? Also, uh, does perception of salt really change when it is added at different stages of cooking? Also, can one calculate how much of a spice or herb to add when cooking? And ratios of one spice to another overall, are there universal constants? No.
+
+[31:28] Uh I don't think so. I mean, I always there's certain recipes that you know what's going to happen, and so you add definite percentages. So breads. Uh, you typically add uh percentage, and every baker knows what percentage they are gonna add of salt, and you typically then you're salting on flour basis, not on flour and water basis, because after it's all said and done when you bake, you really care about the the quantity of salt in the final product, not in the uh not in the in the dough, and usually your hydrations level out when you bake, right? I mean, let's be honest.
+
+[32:00] Uh unless it's like something really really dry. Um and so typically for a given recipe uh style, like a cookie or a bread, you'll use a particular percentage. And I used to use, you know, McGee told me about this uh writer, bread writer in San Francisco who's uh apparently well known, used to work, I think at Acme, and he uh I forget his name, and uh, you know, he wrote that in the old days we would use like a percent uh a percent to a percent and a half of salt, which is what I typically would have used in bread back in the day, bread and pizza dough, things like this. He says modern people are pushing up like over two uh percent on salt, which it seems high, but you know, uh anyway. But the point is that salt levels I guess have been rising up in uh a lot of these artisan breads over the past uh couple of decades.
+
+[32:44] But yeah, so that has a definite percentage. Uh and I think you can do the same thing with other things made a noise, didn't mean to. Uh with other things that are kind of uh uniform. So you know when rice comes in, like that doesn't have salt in it, and so you could calculate. I haven't done it, but you could calculate a percentage that you're gonna add uh of salt to a rice before you cook it.
+
+[33:04] What I would do if oh I did, I would take the rice that you make, I would take a batch, uh, make a batch, weigh it, and then you know exactly what the weight is of a of uh particular rice after you cook it, and then do a percentage basis on that, like a percent or so, probably percent, percent two, whatever. Uh but when you're dealing with things, uh other things, especially things that have some their own inherent salt in them, you never know how much salt you're gonna need to add because you don't know what the flavor of the original thing was, and certain things require more salt than others based on uh the levels of other flavors that are present in them. You know, does that make sense to us? And as to whether you should add it before or after, I think a lot makes a difference. If you add salt to bread afterwards, then you're a the then you're a nasty Tuscan person, and we all know Tuscan bread is terrible.
+
+[33:50] Uh it just tastes awful because they don't put salt in. So you have to clearly uh with bread add it, uh add it um uh uh before, before you make it, when you're making the dough. Uh it can also make a difference, for instance, in bread when you add it, um, because it also changes uh how fast the yeast uh works. When you're soaking beans uh in salted water, the salt can change the rate of the absorption of the water into the beans. So, like in certain cases it makes a functional difference when you add the salt.
+
+[34:15] But in other cases, I think it almost always makes sense to add salt as you're cooking. Oh, another one, meat. If you add salt to meat before you cook it, if you add it a long time before you cook it, then it can change the texture of the meat, right? So that's why if I'm doing a long cook of something like a steak and I want it to taste like a fresh, like a like a broiled steak, I won't add the salt if I'm gonna cook it for a long time because I don't want the texture of the meat to taste more like a cured texture of meat, which it will if the salt's there for a long time. Well, especially when it's cooking for a long time.
+
+[34:44] Okay. So there you have it uh uh on that. But it other than that, or for instance, I'm sorry, if you're gonna make a stock, you don't add the salt now because you don't know what form you're gonna use the stock and you're gonna reduce it, and then your salt levels are all wrong. However, when you're using ingredients and you know that the ingredients that you're preparing it into its final state. Like for instance, I'm making a sauce, and this sauce is gonna go on something else, right?
+
+[35:07] I want the sauce to taste uh the right level of salt, so I'll salt the sauce while I make it. I also want the meat that I'm putting the sauce on to have the right level of salt, so I'll have the meat taste good if you were to taste it without the sauce. I think in general, if you follow the rule, have everything taste good on its own in terms of its salt level. When you combine them, they'll still taste good. I'm not such a fan of saying I'm gonna make one bland piece of crap and then I'm gonna put something really salty on top of it because then the two things are unbalanced on their own.
+
+[35:32] And what if someone takes a bite of one and not the other? Or what if you have a piece of potato that you didn't salt the water because for some reason you don't like to salt water? I don't know what's wrong with you. I don't know why you didn't salt your potato water, but if you did that, right, and some guy got a big chunk of potato with a little bit of salt on the outside, well, that potato's gonna be bland because the interior of that potato is not gonna have any freaking flavor, right? Whereas a person has a small piece of potato, they're not gonna have too much salt because they have relatively more sauce on it.
+
+[35:55] So in that situation, I would say add the salt all at once. You know what I mean? Okay. Uh would that make any uh any sense? Yeah.
+
+[36:02] All right. All right, okay. What do you think, Jack? Is that that that okay? Yeah, I think you got it.
+
+[36:07] Yeah. Uh oh, and same thing with spices. First of all, spices are even worse, like spices and herbs, because the relative uh pungency or power of the given spice or herb is wildly dependent on how old it is, where it was sourced, uh, the variety it is, etc. etc. So there's really no rules.
+
+[36:22] That's why when people ask for recipes and you give them a recipe and like, you know, it's got like I don't know, time in it. Well, I don't know how much time you need to add. Why don't you just chop up the time and then when it tastes right, you're done. You know what I mean? But you're not allowed to write a recipe that says add the amount that makes it taste good.
+
+[36:39] You know what I'm saying? People hate when you write recipes like that. But I'm I'm like I'm famous for uh with with lanterns. I was well known for always just saying, make it taste right, sucker, right? Anyways.
+
+[36:51] Uh okay. I just fast blasted you something. We had a question from Andrea in Germany that has gone unanswered for a while. Just put it in. You sure we didn't answer that one?
+
+[37:00] Because I have that one here, right here. Like it's the next one on the thing. But we sure we didn't we didn't get to that one? Yeah, he's sent me a few emails here this week. So Andrea with eggs.
+
+[37:10] Hi there. I have a question for Dave on uh cooking issues. Uh I'm a judge uh I'm from Germany and listen to your uh show regularly. I have a question regarding baking without eggs. I am not a vegan, but don't tolerate eggs, and all my attempts at baking cakes have been awful.
+
+[37:24] Uh bunt. I like that word, bunt. Uh bunt and sponge cakes turned out extremely moist and heavy, not light and fluffy at all. This might be okay in a fudgy brownie, uh in fudgy brownie like cakes, but I am looking for a sponge uh chiffon cake. I like you don't like sponge, right?
+
+[37:40] The word. No. No. Uh sponge chiffon cake that is usually just made with eggs, flour, sugar, and baking powder. Uh and that can be used for layering cakes with whipped cream, as for stress uh Swiss rolls, kind of like an angel food cake, but with the yolks also being used.
+
+[37:53] I've tried various egg replacers, but they don't work well either. Do you have any idea and a good recipe for that? Thanks for your help. Andrea, okay. Well, uh eggs are uh a miracle, right?
+
+[38:07] And so like they have various different uh functions, and uh in different cakes they they do various things. Um obviously they add uh structure in the form of uh protein. Let me see whether I actually uh anything. They add structure in the form of protein, uh or uh in angel food cakes, they add um in ancient food cakes, they add uh actual foam, right? So you whip them into a foam and and and you beat it in.
+
+[38:31] So there's usually not a single egg, and also there are emulsifiers, right? Because when you're adding egg yolks or something, you and fat. You add fat and emulsifiers, which can also, you know, uh improve the texture of cakes. So I don't think you're gonna find any one single egg replacer that's going to replace all of the um, you know, all of the different functions that eggs can perform even within a cake. That said, there are people working on this problem right now.
+
+[38:55] Uh notably Bill Gates is a big uh investor in uh a company that's doing there's two, I think, main fake egg companies in, they're both in California, of course. And uh one of them is uh already come out with a non-egonnaise, a mayonnaise, right? What's that? You don't do Jack, do you know what this is called? Maybe you could do a quick search for me.
+
+[39:15] Uh and there's another um company that's working on eggs that can literally uh be scrambled and eaten as though they were an egg. So they're looking to get the color right, the texture, and I guess also somewhat the flavor. Wait, so it's a non-egg product that can be scrambled? That's right. Okay.
+
+[39:32] And I've seen it. And here's the thing, right? Uh uh and I talked to Harold McGee about this, and I think Nathan Mirvold was actually uh was pimped out for one of the uh one of the products where like they cooked it at his place and served it to someone else, and that's someone else who's by no means an egg expert, was like, tastes like an egg to me. Here's the thing like when you're when you're like this is like a classic vegetarian argument against meat, is that you can just make a meat replacer, and that most people can't tell the difference. Well, most people can't tell the difference between a piece of meat that's been uh cooked to death and uh you know a meat replacer that's been cooked to death because once it turns into a piece of shoe leather, who the hell cares whether it came from an animal or from a vegetable?
+
+[40:18] You know what I'm saying? There is no one on God's green earth that can take and make something yet that I'm like, that tastes exactly like a medium rare rib steak. You know what I mean? That has the same freaking texture as a medium rare ribsteak. You ever had that happen to you, Jack?
+
+[40:34] No, of course not. No, no. They're like But like if you want to, you know, serve like good mushrooms or something. I don't know. They're delicious.
+
+[40:40] They're delicious. But like the meat replacing people are like, when I make an overly spiced chili that would have had overcooked, particalized crappy hamburger meat in it, you can barely tell that you don't have the particalized crappy hamburger meat. Well, that's not really a fair judge of whether or not you're making a good meat replacer. Brooks' hamburgers are pretty good. They're not hamburgers, they're good.
+
+[41:00] They're a good patty product. They're a good patty product. I would eat it on a bun, and in fact, have many times. By the way, how's this for a word? It's the veg.
+
+[41:09] The veg? The 100% plant-based egg yolk replacement. Oh, veg with two E's. Yeah. Two G's, rather.
+
+[41:18] Veg. Yeah. I don't know. I think with, you know, when you got Gates money behind you, you can't do better than Veg. I don't know if that's the one that you can.
+
+[41:27] Or maybe it's veg. Veg. Veg. No, but it's like supposed to be like the incredible edible veg. Veg?
+
+[41:35] Anyway. But the point is, is that uh I'm sure that you can make something that approximates a really poorly cooked, uh, overcooked scrambled egg, especially if you're going to dump a bunch of Tabasco sauce onto it and eat it with hash browns. Then yeah, you probably could. But uh replacing an actual egg, whatever. What am I talking about?
+
+[41:53] It's talking about cakes. So typically when you're doing a cake, uh, it depends on what you want to replace. You need to leaven somewhat, so you're gonna need some way to uh aerate it. You can typically, you could do that with uh commercial leaveners, but in order to get that um spongy chiffani like thing, uh you might want to um uh you're gonna need to add some sort of uh protein to it. Uh not protein, sorry.
+
+[42:14] Uh some although you could add some protein to it actually as well. That'll mimic some of the stuff. But you're gonna want to add uh something that stabilizes the bubbles in it while it's forming because you're not gonna have the uh egg structure to hold it together while it's baking. So what typically what you'll do in an egg replacer is you'll add some form of thickener uh like some hydrocolide thickener and uh xanthan gum, and xanthan gum will uh hold uh the structure while you are uh while you're baking. But there are some alternatives that uh uh that you could try.
+
+[42:46] I'll give you some. So Johnny Azini and I, years ago, and I think he actually published this recipe, so you can go uh look for it somewhere. I think he published it. We're working uh we wanted to do an angel food cake style thing that didn't have any egg whites in it. And the reason is we didn't want to have that kind of uh protein uh feeling from the egg whites that you get from uh egg whites in an angel food cake.
+
+[43:06] So uh we used uh ISIA or EC whippers, uh you know whipped cream whippers to produce the um the foam texture, and we used uh methylcellulose. So methylcellulose, but not actually methyl cellulose, methylcel, which is a Dow brand of sometimes methylcellulose, sometimes hydroxypropo methyl cellulose, blah blah blah. But they have the interesting property that they gel when you heat them, right? So we added, I believe it was methyl gel uh the SG uh I think it was S G A 7 C. It's been a long time, but I think he published it.
+
+[43:38] I can't remember exactly, it's been a long time. But anyway, so you add this methyl cell to your battery put the m batter in in an EC whipper, you charge it with a bunch of N2O, you foam it into the pan, and you throw it in the oven. The bubbles are formed already from the from the foaming in the in the EC whip, and then uh as it heats, it sets very quickly in um into a gel. The gel holds the shape of the angel food of the angel food cake like thing while it bakes, and then when it cools off, the starch holds it together, so you don't need the egg anymore. So that was one way to do it.
+
+[44:07] Another way you could probably do it is by making a uh a fluid gel, which I'm gonna talk about a little bit later for a different question that comes in. You can make a fluid gel with um uh you wouldn't want to use agar, because agar will break in the oven at those temperatures, but you use low acyl gel and which is a hydrocolloid. You can make a light uh, you know, uh pretty you can make a pretty thick fluid gel, actually, and use that for the water base of the cake. You could even do it milk-based if you wanted. Uh use that as the water base of the cake, and that will provide some structure such that after it aerates, the bubbles won't pop.
+
+[44:37] But you might need to pre-aerate, or you could probably maybe get away with just the aeration from creaming. I don't know. Depends on what kind of cake you're gonna make. If you're gonna make one with fat or if you're gonna make one that needs to be aerated by uh by whipped egg whites. If you're gonna do something that needs something like whipped egg whites, you could use uh VersaWhip to whip together um uh a liquid base and then set that with Xanthan or some form of fluid gel so that it doesn't break.
+
+[44:58] There's a bunch of different things you could uh go through, or you could just try a commercial egg replacer. Does this make any sense? Uh-huh. Anyway. Uh anyway, if that's if you need more information, uh, you know, give me give me a holler.
+
+[45:08] I don't have any recipes off the top of my head, but again, look, Johnny Azini might have published that recipe we did. It was years and years ago, like six years ago or something like that. Um Chris Shedon writes in on brine penetration. Howdy, Dave, the hammer. Uh oh, you could Joe in the tools.
+
+[45:21] Well, Joe, you know, Jack. Joe did come back that one week though. Yeah, Joe's around sometimes. Yeah. He's pretty famous.
+
+[45:26] Yeah, my man Joe. Yeah. Uh we've been brining our chickens, uh, if non-kosher, since the oldie Cooks Illustrated article popularized it. We also brine fish to present uh to prevent protein bleed out. Typically for chicken or pork, we do a five percent solution for twelve hours or so.
+
+[45:42] Works fine, no problems there, and we like the results. We believe we understand the process, osmotic pressure, higher or lower salt concentrations, etc. But we've seen a number of brines that include non-water soluble flavorings. Thomas Keller's chicken brine, for example, has honey. Okay, that's water soluble.
+
+[45:56] But uh also bay leaves, garlic, peppercorn, rosemary, lemon, onion, times, parsley, etc. Since these herbs and spices are not water soluble, uh, can they actually penetrate the protein and flavor the meat? Even if they can, can they penetrate more than the surface layer of the fresh flesh fresh, fresh flesh. Even uh if so, which earth spices would imbue more flavor more successfully, and what's the mechanism? Thanks for all the uh great info on cooking issues.
+
+[46:17] Chris Shelton, uh Shenton, rather. Uh okay, here's the here's the thing. Uh well, eat like a lot of that stuff is water soluble, but the most larger molecules, uh, salt is a relatively small molecule. And also the interesting thing about salt is that salt as well as acids uh radically affect uh kind of how proteins in the muscles act. And so they can have a very big uh effect.
+
+[46:40] And uh then the question is whether or not like they penetrate the surface or whether they don't. Most spices are really on the surface. Salt, uh, there's some arguments on how much penetration you get uh on salt, but I'm gonna refer all of you, rather than having a discussion of it myself, I'm gonna refer to you to what a couple of years ago was not uh that widely read a blog as far as I can tell, but everyone should go take a look at it. It's uh genuine ideas.com. It's a guy, I think he's uh he's some sort of scientist, his last name is Blonder.
+
+[47:09] Genuine ideas.com has done the best work on brining uh ever because he did a bunch, cooked a bunch of stuff, and here's what's cool. He cooked a bunch of stuff, and then um after he cooked it and sliced it, soaked it in salt revealing dyes that could actually show the penetration of salt of an actual cooking, not marking uh penetration based on dye penetr dye penetration, but actual on s salt penetration on the cut surfaces of meat. So I just rather than going into it, I recommend you all read that, and then if we want to have some discussion about his section on brining, uh, you know, then we can, but it's it's excellent. So go take a look at that. Um Matt Maroon writes in on foam.
+
+[47:49] Hey guys, I made an awesome hot toddy using mulled apple cider, angostura uh bitters, dark rum, uh angostura, yeah, dark rum, uh fat wash with brown butter and maple syrup. I topped it with uh La Bernardan's carib uh caramel foam. By the way, when you say La Bernadette, it means Michael Lasconis is formerly a La Bernadette, uh good you know, great, great well-known pastry chef. Uh caramel foam, uh, and then uh give me a link to the recipe. And the recipe is uh quarter cup sugar, tablespoon water, two large egg yolks, uh three quarters cup heavy cream, uh three tablespoons uh plus uh teaspoon of whole milk and a half sheet, uh half half of a two-gram sheet of of gelatin.
+
+[48:28] So basically you're making a gelatin stabilized whipped cream in the ISI. It was done in ISI, foamed out, bop. Okay. Uh okay, that's how Lasconus did it. One person who drank it noted that if you drink too slowly, the foam melts and leaves an unappealing mess floating on the cider.
+
+[48:42] You know what? It's like, you know, your friends can't just accept the freaking drink you gave them. They have to like complain about the unappealing mess on the service. It's typical, right? Yeah, typical.
+
+[48:50] You know what? It's like it's like I was like, uh uh okay, so like when the iPhone was coming out, right? Uh the like they were having problems with the store because I happened to be up. I was working, actually, interestingly, on Searzol stuff, I was working on stuff when the when they went on sale, 3 a.m. my time, right?
+
+[49:08] So I go on and the Apple store is not working. I'm like, these guys didn't get their store up on time. I was like, oh, yeah, people make mistakes. You know? Your friends should get people make mistakes.
+
+[49:18] You know? I'm so much more forgiving now. Uh, but like uh after I've had to do after I've had to go through it, I'm much more forgiving of when things go wrong, you know. Uh so you're you know, your friend needs to give you a b a big bad break on that. But anyway, yes, we're gonna solve your problem anyway.
+
+[49:32] Uh the foam melts and leaves an unappealing uh mess floating on the cider. Is there anything I could do to slow that down, like methyl cellulose or something? The foam uh already has gel in it. Three of the four of us drank it too quickly to be an issue, but I thought there might be uh nice to slow down the melting a little uh if it were possible. So three of the four of you were reasonable.
+
+[49:50] You just drank that sucker, right? Uh I'm gonna go back to what I said before. You're gonna want to use some form of a fluid gel. So reinforced creams. So forget the gelatin.
+
+[50:01] Throw the throw the gel, bah, gone, right? Get rid of it. Uh you're also about to go vegetarian. Uh well, yes, but not vegan, because you have egg yolks in it if you want. Whatever you want.
+
+[50:10] Uh, what you're gonna do is uh you're going to take um the water uh and the milk. Uh and that might be enough, actually. Now you might need to take a portion of the cream as well, and you're going to set it in a 1% uh as a 1% agar gel. You're then gonna blend that gel. Now you have to have enough of it.
+
+[50:33] You have to make like 300 grams or more of this uh of this agar gel. Uh and then you gotta you could do like you could do uh actually, you know what? 1%'s kind of high. You could do yeah, you can do 1%, and then just add enough cream back to it to get the texture way you want. So you're gonna uh make an agar gel with this stuff, then blend the hell out of it.
+
+[50:50] Then uh you're gonna mix it with the cream and the egg yolks, you're gonna shake it, right? And then remember, this is a fluid gel, okay? So you're gonna need and by the way, when you blend it, if it looks like little shards, then it's not blended enough. It has to look creamy. Uh so then you put it in the whipped cream container, you flick the whipped cream, put your finger over the tip.
+
+[51:10] First time doesn't matter, second, third time it does. Flick down, right? To make sure that all the product is slammed against the head of it, then dispense. And the agar fluid gel will prevent meltdown. I do this all the I do this all the time.
+
+[51:22] Two minutes, but I'm not done with all the ketchup questions. I have a lot of questions this week for uh yeah, so you can still writes in on ISI and soda streams. Hello, everyone at Cooking Issues. This is Mildred from Albany, New York, with a completely different question that I'm gonna try the first batch of mushroom ketchup that we talked about before this weekend. I want to pick up an uh EC whipper so I can try rapid infusions, but my housemates are more interested in picking up a soda stream who just posted a big loss.
+
+[51:45] Their stock went way through the floor. Hopefully they can pick themselves back up. Uh as a trial. I know that CO2 isn't strong enough to do decent infusions, but uh, but are we doomed to multiple devices? Can one use a CO2 cartridge is one of the types of EC whippers for soda, and then an NO2 uh N2O cartridge for infusion or foam?
+
+[52:02] If so, are there any specific accessories I can get to make it work? And what additional care and maintenance steps do I take to make sure I don't mess up with the whipper? Thanks in advance, and keep it tasty, Mildred. Unfortunately, you will need multiple things. It's completely un you you will spend more uh if you make uh any reasonable amount of seltzer, you will spend more uh trying to do seltzer in the uh in the whipper than you will just doing it in the soda screen.
+
+[52:25] The soda stream is much more convenient for making uh things like seltzer and then keep the uh whipper for whipped cream and infusions and stuff like that. You won't regret having them. They're they're they're different, but you can't really get one to do the thing for the for the for the other. I thought you said I had two more minutes. We're done.
+
+[52:42] You can do more ketchup on Tuesday's show, though. Alright, listen, I have to talk about I did all this research on Christoph and his and cooking bass. Still in your head. And I did all, you know, talk about liquid smoke. What else am I gonna talk about?
+
+[52:57] We're gonna talk about uh the way we cook brats with the food truck. We're finally gonna get to the autolife step with Calvel and bread, custards, oh my god, fennel, oh my god. All this stuff. All right, so we'll get to it next week, the almost catch up show, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[53:24] You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:47] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five generation Georgia based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit WhiteoakPastures.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the food scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Dissues coming to you live from Robertus P3 in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined not with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. She is not doing well today. So instead, not as a not not as a consolation prize, but you know, in your own rights and as awesome folks, we have a Peter Kim and Emma Bose from the Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[0:54] Yo, so hey, uh by the way, I need to provide a visual for what we just saw. When when Dave does that intro thing, he has like sweat beating on his forehead. And do you know that scene in Total Recall when Arnold Schwarzenegger goes out on Mars and his eyes start like bugging out? I was gonna hope I got I got to be Quattle. I'm just gonna get to be Arnold Schwarzenegger with his eyes bugging out me.
+
+[1:12] Quattle is the guy to be. I'm like in buried in someone else's chest. I thought No, no, no. This is this is more like your your eyes are bugging out like Arnold Schwarzenegger in total recall. But that's the image that I saw when you were doing that opening thing.
+
+[1:25] Do you know I've used that reference uh like countless dozens of times teaching uh Sue Vid and vacuum work. Like the whenever like I try to talk about what happens to a piece of meat when you put it in a vacuum machine and it's warm, for instance, close to body temperature, even room temperature. I always try to bring up uh the total recall where Schwarzenegger's eyes are pupp puffing out, but can do do you remember the noises he was making? No. He's holding his he's going back and forth.
+
+[1:52] It's like halfway between a person and a pig. And it sounds very unlike the uh the Schwarzenegger that we all know and love. By the way, I had a weird Schwarzenegger dream like two nights ago. I was hanging out with him and I was totally surprised that he in the dream also uses all of his own catchphrases like at random, just at random times. He would just say, get to the chopper.
+
+[2:13] Like randomly. So we're I bet you I wonder in real life whether he does that or not. I think my favorite source of uh Schwarzenegger quotes is from kindergarten cop. Oh, not a tumor? Yeah, not a tumor.
+
+[2:24] Um I can't remember else there's uh uh well I mean that's the the best one, not a tumor. Who is your daddy? What does he do? Yeah. That's not a good one.
+
+[2:33] Uh who is your daddy, what does he do? All right. Um joined in the engineering booth by Jack Insley and why why what's your last name? It's Wyatt Burns. Whyot Burns.
+
+[2:45] Like why whenever I hear Burns, I think Mr. Burns. Do you get that a lot? You don't look like him. I don't know why I would think of that.
+
+[2:50] Uh Emma can do a great Mr. Burns impression, actually. Uh I wouldn't say the whole impression, more just the kind of uh shudder. Oh yeah. I see that.
+
+[2:58] I see that. Uh all right, so why don't we uh Yeah, I've got a c a caller right out the gate. Alright, call her right out the gate, you're on the air. Hey, what's up, how are you, Dave? Doing all right.
+
+[3:08] Uh I got a question about um backtofer for salami curing. Sure. Um I'm using uh I think FRM. I mean I started with uh Paul Steen's book. I think he recommends FRM 52.
+
+[3:20] I don't recall off the top of my head, but basically, as you I'm sure I already know, it it calls for uh like a twelve or so hour incubation period. Uh right now what I'm doing is I actually have a a light bulb on a timer that I close in my oven door with all the salumies that goes on like X amount of minutes per hour. I keep between eighty and a hundred. But my question is, um, is there any reason I can't um put it in a water bath sealed up to do that? Or d uh does it need to kinda have that drying out as well?
+
+[3:54] Well, it's not just a drying out, is that uh Huh. I've never had anyone ask me that before. Uh I mean, you're trying to you want the pH to drop. Now the lacto the lactic acid bacteria are anaerobic, so you shouldn't need the oxygen. Maybe the thing is to stop the ox maybe the thing is to stop the exterior uh bacteria that are not um that are aerobic from uh growing during the initial period of drying out.
+
+[4:24] You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, I was worried about the moist environment inside the bag somehow being a safety issue, but I don't know how if it would be that much different than being inside the dry oven or hanging in a in a warm box, like a proofing box or something. Well, I mean remember it's it's more it's it's inside the bag is not only is it uh, you know, not drying and out. Remember, your humidity at the beginning of this stuff is super high anyway. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[4:54] Like so at at the beginning, you know, uh if especially if you're doing it like in in a in a converted fridge thing, your humidities are I mean, it's been it's been years since I've looked up the numbers, but your humidities are in the nineties, uh, when you're doing your initial uh fermentation. But if you put it in a bag, you've shifted it from the exterior being uh uh an aerobic environment to an anaerobic environment. And I don't know uh I mean, you know, you you might be putting yourself uh at risk for various things that way, but uh I mean I can suspend it over the water on a rack oh that's at least and then cover it with a towel right I mean that would definitely work but you'd be putting yourself then in a hundred percent humidity environment now whether or not that's a problem or not I don't know I mean like it look I'll tell you what Peter next week we're going out to hang out in Madison that's right aren't we gonna next week are we gonna meet with the uh curing folks in Madison when we're out there the guys yeah I'll ask them how about I ask them when I see them you know maybe they have some experience I mean obviously I've never heard of me obvious look obviously there are some lactic acid uh things that take place entirely aerobically underwater i.e almost every pickle and every sauerkraut um why not do why not do it in a bag uh for sausages I frankly don't I don't I don't know what I'm doing is working but I just figured it's as a matter of convenience and absolutely stable temperature for a very specific amount of time I just figure you know I just got the circular I'm trying to use it for every thinking thing I can think of as you as you know how that goes. Yeah I mean look if you bag it you're definitely gonna get blow off in that time because uh you know and that's another interesting uh point is that uh but of course you're putting you're putting a uh a culture in it so I don't know I mean I've had very very very unpleasant fermentations take place in vacuum bags uh you know uh in the mid to in the low fifties Celsius overnight like hyper unpleasant uh smells uh in in uh specifically in uh pork so you know we used to do uh whole pork shoulders in fat and I remember because fat uh fat you know is not obviously it's thicker than water so it doesn't circulate as well it's also not as good of a uh uh conductor uh you know uh it doesn't have as high a specific heat so it doesn't you know s put as much energy out so if you circulate fat you have to be really super careful that you get really good circulation all the way around and I had some stagnant points in my uh fat bath that I had these pork shoulders in and not only that the pork shoulders were uh touching each other in a couple places and so there was total uh not only a dead spot but you had something that was roughly the size of a Chevy engine that you know is trying to get warm and then you know couple that with the fact that even when it was regulating temperature right it was only at 57 which is just a a mere like like six degrees above or seven degrees above like kind of growth for this and so I had a 10 degree temperature delta over the over the you know the span of this bath and the next day it walked in it was like someone had taken like like a really bad blue cheese and just you know put it into a pressure washer and sprayed the whole room with it. I mean it stank to high heaven and while I love the smell of blue cheese with the rare exception of some uh of a child of a Chinese ham that I had once and the uh and I think the really good like uh Colonel Newsom's ham some blue cheese is not usually a note you're shooting for in meat and when it when it when it commingles with like that slight kind of putrescence that you get out of some fermentations like unless you're eating Scandinavian fish and I'm talking to you Sir Stroming not to the hockerel which we all know did not smell that rotten from last week I think you can I mean I know for a fact that unpleasant things happen in that.
+
+[8:42] But if you're just using a starter culture, I don't know. I'd have to just talk to some some uh people who have more than theoretical ideas about it. You know what I mean? Yeah, man, I'd love it if you could get to get to the bottom of that for me. That'd be awesome.
+
+[8:54] Sure, no problem. And also, uh that email about the uh turkey uh porchettas from meat too. So I hope you guys get the chance to address that today. That'd be sweet. Did that just come in?
+
+[9:04] Because Nastasha is like I say, she's not she's not here, so I didn't get there's apparently I had three questions, but from uh this past couple of days, but I didn't get it. You want to just tell me the question now? Well, I was already told there's only one question for caller. I will I will tell you anyway. All right.
+
+[9:21] Um uh Kenji, you know, Kenji, he had uh uh experiment he did where he b and and I did this with a chicken, not with a turkey, and I'll make it break. Basically break it down, brind the breasts, pound them out, grind all the dark meat in the sausage, roll it up into a perfect torpedo, you know, with saran wrap, um, and then uh wrap it in the skin, souve it or whatever, and then um and then deep fry the whole thing and then serve slices of it, which sounds amazing. I I used to do that like all day, every day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:55] So uh my question is that uh since I'm gonna be serving it at a different home other than I'm preparing it in, is it gonna suck if I fry it at my house and then try to rewarm it? I mean, I'm not too sure about the the properties of skin that's been low temp and then fried, if it's gonna hold a crisp like the uh like the Korean wings do with it. No, it won't. No, absolutely it will not. It will not.
+
+[10:21] Okay, so it's gonna suck. Uh no, it's not gonna suck. It's just not gonna be like that. I mean, first of all, uh usually when I do it, I I couldn't can't remember exactly what you do. Usually I put the dark meat around the outside, because it's the most then you don't even need to brine the the the white.
+
+[10:34] Usually, I mean, I do the opposite. Look, when you think about it, right, tech from a technical standpoint, you want the dark meat to cook to a higher temperature than the white meat, right? I mean, it's just fact. By about two degrees. So usually what I'll do is I'll pound out the dark.
+
+[10:44] I can't remember which way you said it, and then I'll put the white on the inside. I you look, I used it as one of my as my standard demo. Nils and I used to do like a uh what's it called? Turduck in this way, right? The way that you're describing with the skin on the outside.
+
+[10:58] But one of my standard demos was to bone out a whole chicken, put the breast in the center, pound out the dark meat, uh wrap it in the skin with meat glue, roll it into and by the way, there's a skill and an art to uh doing torchons with plastic wrap, and you know, I learned it from Nils Norin, and I'm not saying that like it's a good way to learn, but cooking issues in the low-temp primer, cookingissues.com, which we're not updating anymore, but still exists, has a like a like a good visual thing on how to wrap a nice uh stiff torchant, which you which should uh by the way sink. That's how you know you've done it right. If the sucker floats up at the top, I'm gonna have to check that out because mine are a little sketchy. I keep going back and forth between the freezer just to keep everything where it's supposed to be, you know. Yeah, if you use the look, Nils Norin may will make any any anything into a tube.
+
+[11:45] I've seen him make the least tube-like things into tubes. And uh so you know, I learned his technique and it's really good. And then Hervé, also from the French culinary, his magical secret sauce was he would um after you put the normally what would be the last wrap of plastic around the torchon, he would do one more thin layer of plastic and get this with a couple of butter knives rolled into it, and the butter knives just sink the torchon straight to the bottom of of the uh circulator, which is a sweet trick, right? All right, sweet trick. Uh now, but back to your your other thing.
+
+[12:14] Um super crispy skin either happens from long frying, right? Or uh, you know, like double frying, typically in a in a in the Korean thing, usually in the presence of uh extra starchy crap that can because it's all the water management. Like crispy skin is all about managing the water, right? So in in some of the in like the in what I think is like the super awesome Korean drum stri stick technique, because really I could give uh rats behind about the rest of the rest of it. Like for me, like that, like the old style, like whatever you want to call it, kyoshan style, banchan style, whatever you want to call it.
+
+[12:47] You know, Peter, what do you like to call it? Which style do you would you you don't care? He's what? Speak. Korean fried style.
+
+[12:53] But uh but the the one the one that for the one that forms like a maraca with the meat, like that's about like setting the skin at the right temperature. The meat kind of drifts away from the skin, which maintains this thing, and then you have awesome water balance. So and then they put it with that kind of uh sugary craft, it also helps it keep kind of crunchy because it's like it's basically like uh, you know, a candied shell of awesomeness. I think that stuff's fantastic. But in a low temperature environment where you've meat glued the skin to it and you're getting all of your texture off the final fry, it's never going to be that crispy unless you batter it and deep fry it.
+
+[13:27] Now, if you batter it and deep fry it, then you might have some uh good luck, but you're still you're then you're relying on the fact that you have a thick crust to deal with the moisture management problem. Because when you're doing low temp, you're never overcooking the meat, and because you're never overcooking the meat, you're always having something moist in contact with the skin, and so it never lasts that long. However, like these torchons can be really good even as a cold prep for a buffet, and the skin looks nice because you stirred it once. And I I did that once for uh, you know, my wife had to throw a baby shower for someone, and I wasn't allowed to be there because I'm a dude, and apparently, like some people like they don't let dudes at their baby shower. I wouldn't complain.
+
+[13:59] If you've ever been to a baby shower, you're not missing out. Uh, all right, good. Well, uh, so anyway, so like she didn't want to do much cooking, and I wasn't allowed to be there to finish stuff off. So I did a bunch of cold prep with uh chicken and turkey, which is fantastic because no one's used to having a cold prep that doesn't suck. All right, I'll agree with that.
+
+[14:14] Yeah. Yeah, actually, one of the uh one way I do uh roast chicken at home is I sort of dry out the chicken over a few different days for over three days, so it becomes this like mummy-like appearance. Yeah, actually. And then when it's super dry and looks almost desiccated, then I roast it and you get a super crispy skin out of it. Right, and that's a good point.
+
+[14:35] Like when I do low temperature on turkey for Thanksgiving, I'll do the low temperature and then I'll just leave it uncovered in the in the fridge for a while to flash off. And if you pull it out of the torchant when it's hot, you'll get more flash off on the skin and you're liable to get crispier skin anyway. But I don't think you're ever gonna make it to Korean fried chicken land with that. Well, no, I was just using that as an example, but I mean I could always just low temp it and then refrigerate it and then finish it in like a 500 degree oven, like right before I mean I'm sure I can get some oven space. They have like three ovens at the time.
+
+[15:04] Oh, that's uh that's always a good call. That's always a good call because then you're doing what I always call uh low temperature cooking for insurance purposes, meaning the sucker's cooked through, so you don't need to worry about it. It's gonna get kind of mildly warm in the middle, so nothing really matters. And then you cook it like you were gonna normally cook it in somebody's crappy oven, but you no longer have to sweat it because the inside's already cooked. I mean, that's a genius move.
+
+[15:23] That's like then you then you don't have to like ask them for anything fancy, you don't have to fry, you don't have to look like you're high maintenance, you just throw it in their oven and it comes out and they're like, why can't I cook like this? And it's because well, because you're not thinking straight. That's why you can't cook like this. And then I'll I'll be the hero of Thanksgiving. Exactly.
+
+[15:38] Hero of Thanksgiving. That's what I like to hear. Dave, I love the fact that on the one hand, you are no longer a high maintenance guest. On the other hand, you're telling them the host of your the host of they're not thinking straight. So no, that's only if they ask.
+
+[15:50] It's only if they ask. Yeah, no, you know what? The thing is also, like, if you're bringing something kind of like that major to the to the event, like they're seeding, like they're seeding anything to you. You know what I'm saying? Like they're like, I'll make some sides, and then you're gonna have like the big old turkey thing.
+
+[16:07] It's like, look, you get to save basically whatever you want, but it still is mega cool to walk in there and not mess with the fact that they are still rushing around to get their mashed potatoes done, walk into the kitchen for about 25 seconds, throw the thing in and come back like like 35 minutes later and pull out something delicious. They're like, no, man. You don't even have to talk to them about it. You know what I mean? It's just like drop the mic.
+
+[16:29] Did I tell you about that business idea I had? Check this out. I'm never gonna do this, so someone do this. Here's what I want to do. Someone do this.
+
+[16:34] I want to make disposable, like really like like inexpensive, recyclable, maybe, disposable microphone things with just a simple accelerometer in it. You just keep them in your pocket, and they have a little speaker in them, right? And then when you do something, you just you pull it out of your pocket, no one knows it's there, you drop it, and it goes and you walk away from it. And you buy like a pack of five of these, like drop the mics, and then you know you just always have one with you for when it's time to drop the mic and walk away. I think I hear your new Kickstarter, dude.
+
+[17:05] I know. Well, someone, you know, look, uh it's like before. It's like, look, I've just handed someone like a like a small, like a wheelbarrow full of money. Just like send us something. That's all I'm saying.
+
+[17:14] Here's the thing, Dave. In order to properly pitch the idea, you need to have the mic to drop at the end of your pitch. Well, that's what I'm saying. Someone who has it, someone has the time to go make someone who has the time to go make the mic. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
+
+[17:25] Like, they should just make it. And I'm just saying, send us something, that's all. You know, I'm a generous dude. I don't I don't have time to to it's not, it's not in my it's not in my uh, you know, the range of things that we work on, Booker and DAX. I can't really devote the time to it that it deserves, that it merits.
+
+[17:42] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, good luck with the turkey. Yo, thanks for your help guys. All right cool.
+
+[17:47] I got another caller. Sweet caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how are you doing? Doing all right, what's up? I work at a manufacturing company and recently they tasked me with uh designing like a full service kitchen for all the guys that work on our shop floor.
+
+[18:04] Sweet. And um and the owner of the company um I presented my initial layout to him and he thought it was great. I'm actually making use of some sous vide machines and stuff. And uh but he wants me to uh reuse some old equipment that we have lying around which makes complete sense. He's got like two or three three comp uh three compartment sinks that he wants to uh use for a sous vide.
+
+[18:30] Right. Um I I told him just to use polycarbonate bins because I know they're cheap and it's versatile you can stow them and stuff. I was just curious how would you like how would you mount the controller to a three comp sink and have like one per compartment and plus you got like like water baths that are sharing you know walls in the sink and stuff like transmitting heat between different temperature baths um like what are your thoughts on that? I mean his thought is that you can actually drain the sink when you're done with your sous vide and you're not dumping out a big bin of water and all that. Sure.
+
+[19:01] Well I mean like okay so um Girard uh Philip Preston from PolyScience built one of built something very much like that for uh Girard Bertelon from Cuisine Solutions and and he loves it right so you know it's obviously feasible. The thing is you're gonna be dealing typically with the sink, you're gonna be dealing with a much larger uh water um water situation than you would be with a with a regular circulator which tops out at around so a regular thousand watt heater and a circulator tops out at around 28 liters worth of water. So you need to measure kind of how much your your big your sink is and and kind of figure from there how much power you're going to need. Secondly it a lot depends on how you're going to mount the heating head. So some people have done it uh where they mount they like mount a standard circulator into a uh into a sink and if you're going to do that what you have to be careful of is that you get full circulation from top to bottom right so a lot of people just worry about you know is the pump above the water and is the heater above the water but that is you because think about it this way this the pump typically circulates straight out and cold colder water tends to sink so if you have um something that's circulating over at the top you can have stagnation at the bottom and all the cooler water is floating to the bottom so you're never heating all the way down to the bottom of your tank especially if you have product in there.
+
+[20:24] So typically if you're gonna have something if you're gonna do something like let's say weld what kind of shop do you guys metal plastic what do you do we do everything we need metal wood plastic I mean like a ton of different things. So you're good to go so what you what I would do is like have like weld like a bracket so that you could put the circulator pump in the sink if you need to this is the simplest way. You can go much more complicated and really internal so you can mount a controller and a circulator and you could like weld a pump into it so that you never have to have something on the outside. Depends how much you want to put into it but um you know I have seen people weld brackets and then have the circulator fit in that way if there's a problem you're not ripping a controller that's built in out of the sink. It's less work you have to do.
+
+[21:03] It's a little more not as built in, so it's a little bit bigger of the pain in the butt, but it's also easier to sanitize because you can remove all of the units. You don't have to worry about a flow-through pump. Now, back to the sink itself. Usually in a depends on what kind of three compartment sink that you have, but most of the time it's not like an actual partition, in other words, just a piece of metal. Typically, uh, you know, you'll have is it, or is it like three uh things that are sunk into it and you have like a good like half, three quarters of an inch uh lip in between the compartments?
+
+[21:33] Uh I don't think there's an air gap. I think it's just metal and then it's just a metal divider or something. Right. Um I don't think it's actually like uh like a U-shape or anything. Right.
+
+[21:41] Well you then you could always just make, if you want, uh like an insulated metal kind of saddle that you can mount the two circulators to that'll slip over the panel and that'll provide enough insulation to stop too much crosstalk between the two and provide an easy way to drop two circulators into the sink without modifying the sink. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like a almost and that you know, that's gonna be maybe the easiest way because it doesn't require any kind of actual modification of the sink unit itself. It can stay where it is, and like everything else can be done in the shop. What I would recommend is putting some spray insulation on the inside under the other parts of the sink so that you're not losing too much through the bottom of the cabinet.
+
+[22:18] Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And then for evaporation, just do some custom lids with a cutout for the controller. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't use those ping-pong balls.
+
+[22:26] I think they're a pain in the butt. I've never met anyone who's been like, you know what, I'm really glad I used those ping-pong balls. Uh you know. I think like those, like uh, I think were sold as a bill of goods to chefs as something that was good. I think that's really awesome when you're doing stuff that like is really nasty with really nasty volatiles, like if you're electroplating or something, fantastic.
+
+[22:44] But for cooking, no. Like a like a, you know, just like a modified like Lexan uh lid. And you know, depending on how fancy you want to go, uh you can, you know, like I've seen people make little like hinged portions of it, so you could go in and get portion by portion. Uh, you know. But the nice thing about sinks is you can drain some water and then you can just pitch ice into it and and uh and uh drop the temp down, or you can uh you know, what you should typically do is uh is drain the water, let it sit for a couple minutes, add uh regular room temperature tap water to it, let it sit for a couple of minutes and then ice it down.
+
+[23:16] You can do all of that under circulation, which makes it a lot more uh efficient. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm actually really stoked about it. So that's that's really good uh helpful information.
+
+[23:27] I just found out too that we have like an endless supply of liquid nitrogen, so I'm gonna check with our supplier, make sure it's food grid, and then go to town with that too. Yeah, you know, most of it it like uh uh most of the people who supply it supply it also to kind of medical places. So the product itself is all good. It's a question of the filling apparatus and the tank they put it into is usually what the what the dealio is. But most of the time you're actually okay because it'd be harder for them to you know give you something that's ruined than not.
+
+[23:55] In most cases, not always, always check with them. They they don't usually call it food grade, they call it medical grade. Okay, all right, awesome. Thanks so much. Super.
+
+[24:04] Uh let us know how it works. All right. So I have another call. All right, all right. Well we'll take the well caller, you're on the air.
+
+[24:11] Hi Dave, how's it going? Going all right. Hey, um, I'm looking to try and uh make the the duck prosciutto in Roman's book. Sure. And I think it calls for you know hanging it somewhere between fifty and six feet.
+
+[24:24] Uh where the heck would you do that in New York apartment? The fridge is gonna be way too cold. I feel like the rest of my apartment's way too hot. Um can I can I try it either way, or what what would you suggest? Try it.
+
+[24:36] What do you have access to? Right? What do you have access to equipment-wise? Um a circulator. Um I think that's kind of the main thing.
+
+[24:49] But yeah, just in terms of the hanging, I guess. Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't actually frankly know how uh how um what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know how sensitive uh it's gonna be to the temperature.
+
+[25:04] Like so you know, a lot of times what'll happen when you're doing when you're hanging something is that or when you're f fermenting or curing or any anything you're doing, right, is that uh a number of things are going on. You're drying the product out. In some cases there's bacterial fermentation going on, but there's also a lot of enzymatic activity that's going on. And in in any of those situations, you're gonna be affected by both the heat and the humidity, and it can affect not only the length of time, but also the flavor that's going to come out of it, which is why American country hams, where we're talking about a lot of enzymatic activity in the meat along with the drying, you the higher temperature products are gonna have a kind of a different, you know, more robust, kind of more American uh flavor. Now, uh so point is you'll probably be able to get it done at at a lower temperature, but it might not be the same.
+
+[25:48] Also you won't uh you know what humidity does he recommend, do you know? Sorry? What humidity does he recommend? Do you know do you do I forget I don't remember and I'm not sure if if it's even noted, to be honest. Yeah.
+
+[26:01] So I mean, depending on how, you know, I mean uh I I feel you probably don't have the space to get a wine cooler and use it for uh and use it for curing meats, although it works quite well. Like uh like one of those little vino tub kind of things or yeah, like you know, one of the ones that hold like I I have one that holds, I think like, I don't know, like fifteen, sixteen bottles, and I use it like I use it f I never have that much. Actually, maybe it's two cases. I don't know. I never have that much wine in my house because I don't collect like expensive wines, but I also use it to store my cheeses when they come in, because I don't like to refrigerate my cheeses.
+
+[26:36] Uh, and I'll use it for uh meats that I'm you know holding. Um and you so you could use something like that. You might be able to literally just uh like throw some ice in the bottom. How long do you have to do it? How long do you have to keep it?
+
+[26:54] Uh I think they'd say about a week or so. Maybe maybe two. I mean you could build something. Depends also on how handy you are. Like you could build easily build like with a Pell T, like a thermoelectric, because you don't need to move that much energy out, right?
+
+[27:07] So you could probably pretty easily build something that would hold the right temperature inside of like a cooler or even something you made out of styro. It's just a question of like where you would keep it. Like would you like hide it in a closet somewhere? But it it would be you know, it wouldn't be that difficult for it wouldn't be that difficult for you to do. Uh I'm trying to think of a way that doesn't shaft I mean you could easily do it if you shaft your fridge, but then you can't keep anything else.
+
+[27:33] That's not really a valid solution. Uh I wonder if there is any commercial enterprise that you could sort of tip them tip money their way to be able to use a little corner of their like walk-in or something. The problem is is you can't put as something that they don't nah, the the laws are all are all nutty. Yeah, if you have the space for it, like that's a great way to go, uh, Elliot. The like you know, you get one of those little fridges, it's not gonna hold that much.
+
+[28:01] But then from Alberinstruments.com, you can get really cheap kind of humidity and temperature control stuff and just kind of keep it but you know, you'd be putting it in the cooling phase rather than the warming phase. So you wouldn't have a heater on it, you'd have a uh cooler on it. Then if you you know are really slick, like if you wanted to raise the temperature above ambient later, you could throw a heater into it as well. But like, yeah, that would that I mean that would clearly work if you have the space for it. Like the thing is dedicating a closet to it.
+
+[28:26] You know, uh it's not gonna be going on that often, so you might be able to get away with it in the closet. The closet's not gonna get too hot. I mean, I know that for a fact with the wine cooler, because I've kept a wine cooler in a closet for you know over a decade and it worked fine. Yeah, I mean, I think it I think the question just comes down to how much am I gonna be doing this? Am I gonna get really into it where there's something that I'm gonna you know constantly be doing, and then it's like, oh yeah, just buy the fridge, that's no problem.
+
+[28:52] But yeah, I mean that's a good point that you can store cheeses and and other stuff in it to um that might kind of make it worth the the space. Also, fall's coming on. So what I would do is do it like fairly close to a place, maybe you can crack a window. If you're anything like most people in New York apartments, it gets hot as heck because they have those radiators and the radiators can't be adjusted, and so like you have to open your windows in the middle of the winter. Are you like that?
+
+[29:14] That's exactly the problem, yeah. Yeah. So the good news about that is you can find a place in your place that's cold enough by putting it close enough to a window, like you know, in a box with some screen over it, really cheaply, and figure out kind of whether you like it or not, or whether this is something you're gonna do, and then before it gets like really hot again, then you can invest in a uh in a uh you know, in in a more permanent like dorm fridge, rig. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[29:41] I think that's that's a good idea. Yeah. Always good to test the waters, but or go the other way. The other way, the other way, and I've done this many times, is just jump right the heck in, spend all the cash, and you're like, Well, I gotta do it now. Cause I've I devoted all this time and energy to it.
+
+[29:54] I got I gotta do it now. That's how I learned to play bass guitar. Like, you know. Oh, yeah. I've done spent the money.
+
+[29:59] Of course, that was back when I couldn't afford to like lose that kind of money, so it was like, you know, you know, it's like to be a sufficient gamble kind of thing. Yeah, you have to make a big enough investment in time and or uh and or money that it's it it's a personal failure and embarrassment if you don't actually see it through, you know. So Dave's advice is to take a high interest loan or pawn off some very valuable uh you know family duels and then take it up so that the stakes are so high that you must go through with it. Well, I mean that's that's actually interestingly that Peter uh interpreted my uh my uh advice that way because that's exactly what he did with the Museum of Food and Drink, basically, is a He took an extremely uh like huge gamble and like quit a fine lawyering job uh with you know kind of good benefits and salary to uh start the museum of food and drink with absolutely no guarantees, which I forever appreciate. So he did exact he he actually did take my advice that way, and here's here's where he is today, right?
+
+[30:57] True? Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. All right, thank you. All right, well with that, before we go to break, why don't we uh discuss why uh Peter and uh Emma are here.
+
+[31:07] So you uh em you Emma, you want to talk? Yeah, sure. I mean I think given all the discussions of sausages and turkeys and turduckins, this is actually a great segue to quickly plug our upcoming event this Thursday here in New York, Mofad Roundtable, uh the future of meat. Uh we're bringing together four panelists uh who represent a wide variety of views on meat eating and uh whether we should eat meat, how we should produce meat in the future. We've got uh Peter Singer.
+
+[31:31] Or whether we should produce meat in the future. That too. Yeah. Uh we've got Peter Singer, the eminent philosopher and author of Animal Liberation, among many other publications. Uh another philosopher named Mark Budolfsson, who uh is currently working on a volume on food ethics to be published by Oxford University Press.
+
+[31:44] Uh Isha Datar, who runs a nonprofit called New Harvest. They advocate for cultured meat and various uh varieties of so-called in vitro meat and think about sort of the possibilities of meat futures. And then finally, uh Heritage's own Patrick Martins, who recently published the Carnivores Manifesto and also runs Heritage Foods USA, which is a purveyor of ethically and sustainably raised meats. So And don't forget there's some smuck moderating the whole thing. Oh yeah, this guy who's sitting right next to me, Dave will be there as well.
+
+[32:18] So if you are in New York or the area, we would love it if you could come. Uh tickets are at meat.mofad.org. And again, it's this Thursday, the sixteenth. Meet like get together or meet like the stuff. Meet like the uh what Jack said.
+
+[32:33] Yeah. M-E-A-T.mofad.org. Yeah. Uh unfortunately Peter is gonna do the introduction, so I can't go Peter Peter Peter Singer, vegetarian philosopher. Right?
+
+[32:44] Because he's like he's never probably been introduced that way in his life. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think you should do it. Yeah, no, it's your job, man.
+
+[32:53] All right, fair. Yeah. But uh Peter Singer, interesting. Uh yeah, he against eating meat on the grounds that if you don't believe in uh racism, then you also shouldn't believe in eating meat. I mean, it boils down to like you can't distinguish between uh animal suffering.
+
+[33:12] In other words, suffering is the thing. You can't distinguish between uh the suffering of um animals and of people in terms of value judgments, and then says, Well, back in the day we used to make differences between different groups of people and and we don't do that anymore, so blah blah blah. It's kind of a utilitarian plus bludgeoning you with your own sensibilities kind of argument about uh not eating uh meat, which is accurate or inaccurate. Yeah, I would say so. Interestingly, he doesn't argue that uh the suffering that animals and humans experience is necessarily the same, but he does argue for equal consideration of suffering for living beings.
+
+[33:49] So it's not that the pain that a human might experience who knows that there's a future to be lived uh upon the knowledge that he or she might be killed is the same as the pain that an animal might experience uh because perhaps the level of sentience differs there, but there's still, he argues, a fundamental interest in life that all living things share. Yeah, sure. And it yeah, definitely not in a not equating the two, right? The animal suffering and the human suffering, but denying us as people the right to draw uh lines of distinction and treatment on when we recognize suffering is occurring, right? Pretty much.
+
+[34:28] And then, but you know, then he's interesting, he's like, you know, and they're like clearly probably not a food dude, just saying this because, like at a couple of the references in the book, he's like, especially for something as you know not important as eating the animal, you can kill it. You know what I mean? Like he almost seems in some places, it's been years since I've read it, but you know, some places like we're not talking like you know, leather shoes. I can see even more than eating it. I don't know what the guy sounds like.
+
+[34:51] He probably doesn't sound like that. Probably not. He's Australian for one thing. Oh, jeez, I can't do an Australian accent. Well, I just do it the same way I do New York.
+
+[34:58] Anyway, it doesn't matter. But it should be an interesting. When Patrick on the panel, this will be great. Oh my god, what if Patrick's Patrick's gonna be like, meat's so delicious? Like so he's gonna say the whole thing.
+
+[35:07] That's your Patrick impression. No, Peter does the Patrick impression. Peter, do your Patrick Peter, do your Patrick impression. Well, no, he's just saying, like, if you go over to the stake check, you see the big line of people waiting for the hamburgers. You know, I can tell them to stop eating meat.
+
+[35:18] It's just not possible. That's pretty good. It wasn't bad. Yeah, Peter's Peter's got that. Peter's got the uh let's take a break so we can squeeze in some more uh questions.
+
+[35:26] Alright, we'll come right back with more cooking issues. White Oak Pastures is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship.
+
+[36:39] For more information, please visit our website, Whiteoop Pastures.com. How how much do you love that commercial? Ten. And I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that dude not to use his abattoir. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[36:55] I'd like to see that happen. I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that guy not to not to not to do his beef and poultry. Well, we're hoping some farmers will will come to the debate. So that guy's voice, I would buy like I told you the only thing I don't like about that is why only up to Princeton. What's what are we?
+
+[37:10] Dirt? What are we dirt? Anyways. Alright, we have a caller. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[37:16] Uh yeah, Dave. Two or three weeks ago, you very briefly mentioned your recipe for doing Kambu Dashi in a circulator. Could you give me the actual recipe? Oh, yeah. I mean, look, uh, I would look at the um the key thing with Kambu, there's a couple of key things with Kanbu.
+
+[37:32] One is obviously the uh the variety you get, because they are very like extremely widely in terms of not just uh the amount of umami they deliver but the the flavor they deliver. Second thing is um the second thing, I mean obviously how it's how it's cut up. I did studies on that as well, but uh temperature and time. So um you have a circulator? Yeah.
+
+[37:54] Okay. So the best uh I mean the best results I got were in the bag, uh circulated, um, although you could probably do it without the bag circulating. You just gotta make sure that you don't get little pieces sucked up into the circulator. It was it was either sixty or seventy C. I'd have to go back and look at my uh at my numbers, but it was sixty or seventy C, I think, for like in the area of an hour.
+
+[38:17] I did longer, I did shorter, I did higher, I did lower. But go back on cooking issues and just search for uh combo. Those were the numbers I got that uh and like it wasn't like by a little bit, it was by uh a lot. And we went through also all the different um varieties that we could source here in New York, but my memory is too thin to give you the uh the exact uh the exact stuff on it. But it was uh we have I have like two or three posts on da on Kambu Dashi, all with um numbers and photos so you can kind of see how it looks and then obviously afterwards website you're talking about yeah on cooking issue it's still up there like I like I say we have we haven't like it's all archived so it's you know it's not a living document anymore but it's still there and if it's not there I can go research it just give us a give me a tweet back and I'll go uh figure out the the the exact magic numbers again all right and then yeah I think you just sort of hinted at my second question but what's uh what's your play favorite place at the store is wildly expensive Asian ingredients and have some idea of getting what you're paying for.
+
+[39:16] Uh well I mean uh for for Japanese stuff for food I mean I used to source well I was getting that stuff directly from kind of uh true worlds who was my seafood supplier so now I you know I don't have any more like a super fantastic uh Japanese source I guess you know for foods I I tend to go to the same markets that we all kind of go to here in uh New York but um I don't know you mean online or in in the city I know if you go out to where do you go for stuff uh Emma Emma lived in Japan for how long a couple of years where do you go I've gone to Mitsuha in New Jersey once or twice and I mean selection is is great there. It feels very much like a grocery store in Japan. But often I don't make it out there so I usually just go to sunrise in the East Village. Yeah but the you know again like what's weird about that if you don't speak like they don't necessarily think that you really care and so they're not really gonna like like worry about whether you get the best this or that. Like I've never purchased a a good uh uh solid, you know, Katsu Bushi here ever.
+
+[40:21] You know what I mean? Uh you can I've gotten some decent meetos. I've gotten I've never gotten a NATO that I thought was worth spit here in uh in in New York as opposed to the one I had when I was over in Tokyo. You have any good web sources though? I no, I actually don't really buy Japanese food online.
+
+[40:36] I can look into it, I'm sure there'll be a lot of things. Now why don't you look into it and then tweet tweet uh what you should do is follow also at Mofad, which is uh our Twitter account for the museum, and Emma will tweet out for you a good source for that stuff. We'll maybe or we'll find someone who knows and we'll tweet it out. But please follow at MoFad so that you can see Emma's uh response, right? Yes, please do.
+
+[40:55] Yeah, all right, so we'll look into it for you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh okay. So uh Peter, uh Emma, why don't you plug what you came to plug before we get ripped off the Oh by the way, before you do, uh we did a catch-up show last week on a Friday, and it's now up, right, Jack?
+
+[41:10] Sorry, yes, it is. And we might have to do another catch up show. We might need another ketchup show, which is fine. You know what though? I I would prefer to do catch-up shows on the questions that are written in and like always always handle the live caller.
+
+[41:21] I like having live callers. Yeah, I would I would prefer to do a catch-up show with a catch-up sponsor. That's just me. Well, did you do we have a catch-up sponsor? We we don't yet.
+
+[41:29] Nothing has come through. I know some people. Uh you know, I just did a side-by-side of uh Hunts versus Heinz yesterday. Oh yeah? Yeah.
+
+[41:38] What what was the takeaway? Uh well uh the hunts clearly the texture not as good as the heinz. The flavor was okay. But have you had Sir Kensington's? I just met with one of the founders of that company.
+
+[41:46] Have uh so have you? Uh yes. How was it? Yeah, it's good. You know, I mean I have to admit, I think you know.
+
+[41:51] Does he wear a monocle? Yes. Wait, guys, I just I I I have to do this real quick. All right. You the lad.
+
+[41:59] What are we listening to? No, it's a trade network, sir. Very good. I'm Sir Kensington, and you'll listen to the Heritage Radio Network. That's total monocle man.
+
+[42:09] That's total monocle right there. That's him, he was here. D and did he wear a monocle? Of course. Sweet.
+
+[42:16] I kind of like I kind of like it. Although it seems like. Did you know, Jack? Because I know these two know it, that in Spanish, the word for Wisheshire sauce is English sauce. What?
+
+[42:25] Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
+
+[42:28] Inglesi. Yeah. I was like, what the hell is sauce inglese? They're like, oh, Wisheshire sauce. Well, and in front, the French sauce, sauce Espanyol, is just called that because there's a tomato in it.
+
+[42:38] Or there's some tomato in it. Like tomatoes come from Spain? For them, apparently at the time, yeah. French. But you know, the thing is, uh, that like does Kensington's have like a a a dose of Wisheshire like flavors or anchovy in it?
+
+[42:52] Um I can't remember. Because you know, the the characteristic note in Worcestershire sauce is anchovy. Yeah. Which is just delicious. It is amazing stuff.
+
+[43:00] You know what I do not like fake Wish like why like the W Wishurette or whatever they want to call the fake one that doesn't have the anchovy in it, like has some of the notes of Worcester sauce, but it ain't real deal homie stuff. You know what I'm saying? Doesn't it isn't there like a tamarind a strong tamarind note in Worcester 2? I feel like I think so. Yeah.
+
+[43:17] Look, it's a really interestingly complex condiment to be a mainstay in the American pantry. But you know, but that's but people give us a bad rap. You ever have the um the gentleman's relish, the pepper? It's basically uh a compound butter of anchovies, black pepper, and butter. That's a an English thing.
+
+[43:33] People give the English a bad rap, but they look they love their chutneys. I'm not talking prior to like this whole like kind of you know revitalization of British food over the past, you know, 15, 20 years. I'm talking like old school. Like, even with all the crappy stuff. They still had the the the chutneys, the the sauces, the relishes.
+
+[43:49] I mean, you know, great sauces put on their crappy food. Wow. Well, that's what you're saying. That's no, that's what you're saying. I'm I'm interpreting.
+
+[43:56] No, see, this is like this is the same thing that caused you to quit your job. You like you take like three steps beyond like what I'm actually saying. So why don't you talk before they kick us off the air, which is going to be very soon, why don't you tell us like what uh Yeah? So uh for any listeners that are in the Midwest, uh I'm a Midwesterner myself. We've we're going to Madison, Wisconsin next week.
+
+[44:14] And uh we've got we're doing a fundraiser for MoFad out in Madison uh with two James Beard award winning chefs and the Underground Food Collective, and that's uh October 23rd. Dave will be making cocktails, doing a demo. So if y'all are anywhere near Madison, Wisconsin, um you should definitely get tickets. Uh you can get them at Mofad Fundraiser.eventbrite.com. Uh and you can also go on our Facebook, we put a post up on that.
+
+[44:37] So at the MoFad Facebook page. All right. And speaking of uh Wisconsin and Bratz, I'm gonna do one quick one on the way out, and then we're gonna have to catch the rest of the ones that I still owe you guys answers on in either a ketchup show, probably we'll have to do a catch up show. But this one goes out to the Hashi Food Truck uh at cooking issues. Remember an issue where you covered brats or sausages in an immersion circulator with beer.
+
+[44:56] Can you share the tips again? Yes. So uh what you do is uh you can do it in beer, but remember if you're gonna do it in beer, the first couple of ones you're gonna come out aren't gonna taste as bratty as the rest would because you have to get the whole thing tasting like brats. You know what I'm saying? So you want like maximum brat and minimum beer at least at the beginning, so you can get and I've I I don't know if you know this, and uh at Clef's wrote in also about New York hot dog carts.
+
+[45:19] I've drunk the hot dog water from a New York hot dog cart before, and the sucker tastes more like a hot dog than a hot dog does. And I'm pretty sure they reuse the water day in and day out. And don't worry, it's hot, it's not bad. It's kind of like you know, the like the secret uh, you know, Chinese stocks that are made for hundreds of years because the flavor is like you know, they keep on like reinforcing it with fresh meat. I think that's one of the keys.
+
+[45:38] And so uh you're not leaching any flavor out. So you have it in the circulator at like 140, right? So now you're not overcooking the the stuff in the brats, you have it go in there 140, pull it out, and put it over a flaming hot grill to put the crust over it, and it's never gonna be overcooking me delicious and beer brats and forever and awesome. It's really good. Yeah.
+
+[45:57] Yeah, yeah, right. We made it for you once at a museum event. Yeah. Yeah. That was some tasty stuff.
+
+[46:02] Right. And uh, we also had a question in uh that I know I owe you. Don't worry, I know I owe you. I gotta talk about uh fermentation in the bag, and maybe we'll talk about that more when we get more information on meat fermentation in the bag, which I've never done. Uh, next time on cooking issues.
+
+[46:19] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit.
+
+[46:43] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Rackiton opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics, pet supplies, kids' stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is with Rackiton, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental.
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+[0:43] Take a trip. Find that perfect hotel. Book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain. Wherever you want to go, go with Racketton. Join today for free.
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+[0:53] Go to Rackiton.com or get the app. That's R A K-U-T-E-N. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit WholeFoodsmarket.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot.
+
+[1:15] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in Roberta Pizzeria on Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick Brhooklin. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:42] And uh we got Jack over there at the engineer booth. Do we not? Yeah, we do. Wyatt there? I thought it was a white.
+
+[1:46] Wyatt's here. Goodwight, how you doing? How are you guys doing? We're good. Yeah.
+
+[1:50] So I have something for you, Nastasia. Uh wait, is this mine? Yeah. Oh. I signed it.
+
+[1:57] Everything. On the blue page. I'm handing her, for those of you that can't see because this is the radio. Oh, that's so nice. I'm handing her uh her personal copy of uh Liquid Intelligence, the new book, which is not officially out, but will be out soon.
+
+[2:10] We're gonna we're gonna do a signing tomorrow at uh or the day after tomorrow in Madison because we're going to Madison, Wisconsin. You want to talk about what we're doing over there? Uh fundraiser for MoFad, and you're doing a lecture on food science. Doing a lecture on food science. Uh and uh we have another book signing at Starship, which is next week.
+
+[2:27] Can you believe it? Yeah, can you believe it? No, Starshif is here. Oh. You're she's messing with somebody else.
+
+[2:33] Yeah, pay no attention, Nastasha. Nastasha loves like the so inside joke that it's not funny for anyone else. Yeah, oh, just for me. All right, so by the way, uh I don't know whether you guys know this, but I'm sure you do. Like uh here at the radio show, Nastasia is uh the hammer, right?
+
+[2:49] But her official like job description is uh she keeps the wheels on the bus at Booker and Dax. Now I was thinking about this, right? How is because that to me that always implied that you were the bus driver, right? So then I was like, well, how is it mechanic? Well well, yeah, but I just assumed you were also driving it, which I was always wondering like how is it that you end up underneath the bus so often?
+
+[3:10] And I think it's because the bus uh, you know, is so rickety, the wheels are always falling off the dang bus, and you have to go underneath. You're under fixing it, and then as soon as you get the wheel on. Yeah, the jack flies out. Yeah, or there's like, oh, wheel seems to be working now. Boom, boom, boom.
+
+[3:26] Oh, what was that? I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's fine. Right? Yeah.
+
+[3:30] And I'm starting about that, like, you know, on the way over. I was like, that's how that's how this stuff happens. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
+
+[3:36] So listen, I'm gonna tackle some of the questions from uh last week, and then we'll get some of the questions from uh this week. Uh we did we didn't do liquid smoke, did we? I wasn't here for the I don't think we did liquid smoke. I don't think so either. Yeah.
+
+[3:49] Brian wrote in about liquid smoke. Hey y'all, hack happy October. Because he said happy October, I had to get it now before it's not October anymore. You know what I mean? Oh, by the way, next week, the uh the book signing is during the radio show.
+
+[4:01] So we either have to like we either have to do a live uh from Starchefs and then like you know, pipe it in like beforehand, maybe, or or postpone. It's up to you. We could probably get in there and do Star Chefs if you want to do it from Starchefs showing. Man, it's too bad we couldn't do the book signing here at the radio show. Well, uh you could like answer questions and sign books at the same time.
+
+[4:21] Yeah, I mean Star Chefs is like it's with Kitchen Arts and Letters, which as everybody who's been there knows is like the most awesome food bookstore like ever. Uh and every year they have a booth at Starchefs, and so they do book signings there. So I'm gonna do in there, but you have you guys ever gone to Starchefs? Mm-hmm. I've actually never been.
+
+[4:39] No, but I mean, has the radio show been there? I mean, not our radio show, but the radio should be a bunch of our hosts have, yeah. Yeah, next week. It's the uh International Chefs Conference, which is unfortunate that it's the same as ICC, which is International Culinary Center. Always some problem.
+
+[4:54] Always some problem. Always gotta be some problem. Brian writes, thanks for all your tips on helping me prevent another allergic reaction. Uh do you sure we didn't do this? Anyway, uh shout out to Michael Nakkin for underscoring the severity of allergies.
+
+[5:06] So far, so good for me. I'm keeping my flour in the freezer, but I have another question. You did this. I did this? Yeah.
+
+[5:11] Yeah, you did the week before that. Yeah. About liquid smoke? Yep. Well, for those of you that didn't listen to the last here, I'll give you the five second redux on liquid smoke.
+
+[5:20] Liquid smoke is an actual honest to God uh product. It's been around uh a long time. There's a lot of places you can look up uh on how to make your own liquid smoke. The problem with the liquid smoke that you buy in the store is most of it is just like kind of monotonic and and not that good, but it is derived from uh real smoke, and they most of the time uh ri uh remove a lot of the carcinogenic uh stuff. So uh are you sure?
+
+[5:44] Yeah, I'm right, because I remember that intro. Yeah, we think it's from like three weeks ago. Really? Yeah. Wow.
+
+[5:50] Well, did that talk about uh salad nichois? Yeah. If I discuss what my ideal salad nichoise is? You know, the weird thing is like so stuzz, do you like salad nichois or things? I do, I do.
+
+[6:00] So so when you think about it, like what do you think of most? Like, what's the first thing you think of when you think of tuna, right? So, and if you go to the uh, you know, Wikipedia, which you know, are they thinking have they got their money yet? Are you allowed to go with them without them pitching money, or is it still always like give us money, give us money? I think that's over.
+
+[6:16] Okay. Uh so if you go to the Wikipedia, uh, it says that a salad nichoise is composed of tomatoes, tuna, hard-boiled eggs, nichoes duh, uh niche uh and anchovies dressed with a vinaigrette is served variously on a plate, platter, and a bowl with or without a bed of lettuce. The tuna may be cooked or canned. Uh, and then a bunch of other stuff. The salad may include raw red peppers.
+
+[6:37] No. No, it may not. Raw red peppers? No. First of all, the beans in there?
+
+[6:43] Where are the beans? It needs beans. Anyway, may include uh shallots and artichoke hearts. Uh, but according to many sources, excludes cooked vegetables except for green beans and potatoes, which I think have to be there. The boiled potatoes and the green beans have to be there.
+
+[6:57] If it's not, like what the hell? Like, first of all, you need the potato to go with uh with the anchovy and the tuna and the hard boiled anyway, whatever. It needs the potato and the green beans, all that other stuff, artichoke hearts. Listen, I love artichoke hearts, but don't be putting the artichoke cart in the in the nichoise. But anyway, I figured, what the hell do I know?
+
+[7:12] I just know what I like, right? I don't know, like, you know, like it's an actual thing that you can go kind of try to figure out what it is. So I went to Escoffier, right? Escoffier. And then uh Escoffier, interesting, I have all these pictures in my phone.
+
+[7:23] Let's see whether I can get to. I just literally, like, on the way over here, took pictures of the uh recipes. So let's see what uh what my man uh Escoffier wrote. Now, Escoffier says uh that it is uh equal quantities of string beans, potato dice, uh, and uh something with tomatoes. Decorate, I can't see because it got cut off because I'm an I'm a jerk.
+
+[7:44] Uh oh, there is uh and quartered tomatoes, which I don't know, whatever. Decorate with capers, small pitted olives. Small pitted olives, what the hell kind of translation is small pitted olives? I mean, like we're such brutes that we can't like get the actual kind of olive. Like, first of all, like this was translated in the 70s, I think.
+
+[8:00] This is a really old copy I have. So that I like, you know, whatever. Like, you know, we were a different country back in the 70s. But if you uh first of all, pitted olives, have you ever had pitted olives in a nicho's? You ever had someone pit out the nichoise olives for you?
+
+[8:14] No. Me neither. Do people how do you I I I wouldn't want to go I feel that you would mutilate a nichois olive by pitting it, right? Anyway, uh pitted olives. And first of all, back in the 70s, like you'd be like, we got the two kinds of olives.
+
+[8:30] We got the green ones with the pimento, and we got the black ones. Which one? Once you're gonna say small, you might as well just call out the olive. Because back then it was the same amount of impossible, same impossible anyway. Uh and anchovy fillets, uh, seasoned with oil and vinegar.
+
+[8:48] What's that recipe missing? Uh fish. Tuna. Yeah. There's no tuna in that, right?
+
+[8:54] Also, I don't see the was a hard boiled egg in there. I don't see the hard boiled egg. Right, which so I was like, first of all, I was like, this made me doubt everything else in this book. I was like, this book is is a load of malarkey. Like, you need we need to throw this book away.
+
+[9:06] I need to burn it and go buy a new copy of a scope, right? So then where did I go next? I went to uh Pella Pratt, which is one of my favorite uh old school um books. And in Pella Prat, you got uh string beans, potatoes, tomatoes, hard boiled eggs, anchovy fillets, green pitted olives, green, I don't consider nichois green, do you? I consider them like kind of grayish.
+
+[9:30] Kind of grayish brownish, maybe greenish, grayish, brownish, and vinaigrette dressing, right? Peel the potatoes cooked in their jackets, cut them into small dice. Okay, whatever. They're not doing the nice little footballs. Do you like the footballs?
+
+[9:41] Boiled footballs? You like the football shape? Like I think at the FCI they used to do the football shape. You know, they used to turn the potatoes. Anyway, cut the beans in squares.
+
+[9:48] I don't really know what that means. Cut a bean in a square. Anyway. Uh cook them in salted boiling water, uh, cool and drained, mixed vegetables, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Guess what?
+
+[9:57] No freaking oh, wait. And then it said, if like, if liked, neat chunks of tiny fish preserved in oil. So that's like, like, that's like putting it as like a uh, what's it called? As, you know, a uh, you know, maybe you can have it, maybe it maybe you can't. I then looked in Herring's Dictionary of Classical Modern Cookery, another old school one that has a lot of French stuff, and there as well, although they call it Nice salad, like why would you translate the town?
+
+[10:22] Oh, whatever. Um that's like that's like uh like Milanese translating it as Milan. Yeah. Who the hell would do that? Uh anyway, it's like uh uh French beans, quarters of peeled tomatoes, and fancy fancy shaped potatoes.
+
+[10:37] So they have the turned potatoes, by the way. That's what fancy shaped potatoes means. You know what I'm talking about? The footballs? No.
+
+[10:42] I like football. You do like football. You like football? Well, you know, if you actually went through the FCI, like you spend the first week just turning potatoes into like little footballs, and they make you go home and like like convert like 50 pounds of potatoes into little footballs. I hope they still do that because that was the whole point of going to the schools making the footballs.
+
+[10:59] Uh garnished with anchovy fillets, olives, capers, uh, and original French dressing, whatever the hell that means, right? That's some sort of OG French dressing. No tuna. And finally, I went to the source, uh, LaRous Gastronomique, and uh there they also have no freaking tuna. But they say sprinkle with chopped chervil and tarragon, which sounds nice.
+
+[11:21] I like shovel and tarragon together. So there you have it, like all these old school stuff from the 60s, like some of it closely related to the fresh that coming out, with tuna at most uh an optional thing. So I wonder at what point nichoise became a tuna heavy thing. Or you prefer fresh tuna like seared, or do you prefer the canned tuna? Uh either.
+
+[11:40] I think I like the canned with hard boiled eggs. I think with hard-boiled eggs, I like the canned. Yeah, that's true. With eggs canned. And uh do you go for that fancy, the flot stuff, the Italian stuff?
+
+[11:51] Yeah, yeah, that stuff's good. Do you spend the extra money on like Ventresca or do you not you're not that kind of a spending spell? But you know, like the one yeah, yeah, it's good stuff. But anyway, I also like it with fresh tuna, but apparently they're both bastardizations. Yeah.
+
+[12:05] Strange, huh? Weird, weird, weird. Okay. Uh enough about nichois. Uh let's see what else.
+
+[12:12] Okay, Christopher Bass, uh Christ Christoph wrote in his name's not bass, about bass. Uh, and I don't think we talked about this. We've been cooking uh black bass fresh from the lake for two hours at 128 Fahrenheit, which by the way, for you Celsius folks out there is 53.333. Uh it turns out more tender, delicious. Uh it turns out tender, delicious, and cooked to perfection.
+
+[12:30] I did not realize that some fish benefit from longer cook times. Usually fish doesn't hold up well to long cook times, even at lower temperatures. I would add, especially at lower temperatures. Uh here are my questions. Uh I'm not sure what to call this effect that happens there.
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+[12:44] Uh tenderization, or is it just not getting mushy for some reason? I mean, I think that's it. But the problem is when you're cooking fish, here's the thing that like, you know, uh when you cook meats, you're looking to make them more tender. Fish starts out tender, and what you're looking to do is have it not go mushy and not go dry, right? So fish, there's kind of two things that can happen to it.
+
+[13:06] It can stay moist but turn mushy, that stinks, or it can uh go dry. Oh, I hate dry fish. Stas, what do you think about like overcooked swordfish? Not look, I know you're not supposed to, whatever, you're not supposed to have any more, but back when I was a kid, everything was swordfish steak this, swordfish steak that we didn't care if like you know, giant worms came by. I didn't give we didn't give it rat's ass.
+
+[13:25] Everyone rats patoot rather. Uh we didn't care. Everyone had this swordfish, but you know, you would douse that sucker in oil and cook the hell out of it. Just cook the hell out of it. Like sometimes like in a freaking oven.
+
+[13:36] Just cook the hell. Remember how like you used to have all these recipes for fish that you would cook in an oven? Just throw the fish in a freaking oven. Uh, and and uh just like stringy blah, like like hardcore, overcooked sword fish, so many memories. And then and then they're like, well, if we're gonna overcook it, why not overcook shark?
+
+[13:55] Remember when everyone used to eat shark? They like back in like the eighties, like like shark steaks, like overcooked freaking shark steaks. They were good because you salted the hell out of them. But they were otherwise. Do you remember the night well you you were too young, but do you remember the 1980s pork chop?
+
+[14:12] Uh the thin overcooked dry pork chop. My mom did those. Did you call it like the new white meat, right? Yeah, it was the new it was the new white meat, the new crap meat. Like everyone like always like this overcooked swordfish, over whatever.
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+[14:24] I don't know how I got out of this. But so the point is is that you're always in this race. When you're doing low temperature, you don't have to overcook it so that it gets uh dry, but the problem is it can get mushy and it can also get squeaky. So like overcooked uh swordfish is not only dry, well I don't know why I'm talking about swordfish. I don't I haven't had a swordfish in like years.
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+[14:42] You're not supposed to eat it anymore, right? I don't know. I didn't know that. I don't know, Jack, is that on the uh do not eat list? I mean I've I'll go check Monterey Bay and see what they say.
+
+[14:49] Yeah, I mean I haven't eaten it in years, so I don't worry about it. I do avoid tuna when I'm out. I do uh avoid the bluefin, though I love it. Does everyone avoid the bluefin now when they go out? I don't know.
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+[14:59] When you eat sushi, do you avoid the bluefin? Uh I haven't, no. I mean if someone orders it and it shows up, like I'll eat it, but I would never order it, even though I love it. Why can't you shouldn't you eat it? 'Cause it's gonna be extinct.
+
+[15:10] I mean they're they're ruining, it's ruined. Like, you know, it's it's it's you know but the whole like the all the fish are gonna get the the Japanese What? The Kindai people? No, the um the the radiation anyway, so you know. Stas just saying might as well eat it now because I think that's going a little bit overboard.
+
+[15:30] I mean, uh like hopefully we'll get some sort of Godzilla tuna that will uh you know, come on land and eat us all, breathe fire, some sort of giant Godzilla tuna. It's kind of like weird, isn't it? I hadn't thought about it that the monster films like are predicated on like this excess radiation, like after Yeah, well, it's all like these things come out of Japan, you know, after you know, we dropped the atomic bomb and they're kind of obsessed with you radi radiation. Godzilla is a product of radiation. And so, you know, now they have actual other kind of sources of radiation over there.
+
+[15:59] I wonder whether it's going to spur some sort of you know gamera of the sea. Swordfish is okay, by the way, unless you're getting longline caught imported swordfish. You don't want that. Yeah, or unless you overcook it. You definitely don't want to want that.
+
+[16:13] Definitely, definitely don't want that. Anyway, so back to Christoph and his best. This is a this is a lake fish, so I don't even know what what the heck we're talking about all these. Anyway, so uh or is it just uh not getting mushy for some reason? So a lot like look, uh I don't have a lot of experience with uh with uh freshwater fish uh sous vide, uh with the exception of trout.
+
+[16:33] Uh but you know I I know that certain fish get really crappy when they're cooked for a long time and certain don't. And uh, you know, you referenced um I think you referenced the blog post where I did the uh stripers and stripers can stand for a long time. I think it's maybe because they're relatively firm so they don't go mushy on you. Like they they are relatively firm fish, which is why I think when they're overcooked, they're like even stripers when they're do you like it? You like stripers, right, Stuz?
+
+[16:58] But when they're overcooked, they're a little hard, right? That's why I think like it can stand up to it. It's got a little more structure to it because it's a strong freaking fish. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, so uh and I tried to look up for you because there's two things that go wrong.
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+[17:11] One, there's connective tissue that gets broken down overcooking, right? And two, there are uh enzymes in uh in fish that uh break down the flesh, which is why some things like shellfish, for instance, goes super mushy when you cook at low temperature. So those are the two things that you're uh that you're you're looking at, but I wasn't able to find any actual um any listing of fish. What you're looking for is uh the the the two proteases that are in it are uh cat uh Cathepsins, which I can't pronounce in cow pain, I can't pronounce it, but like uh these are what's breaking down um the fish. And I couldn't find any listing of which ones have more enzymes in them and which ones don't.
+
+[17:51] I think McGee might have just a ready reference of which ones get mushier in on food and cooking. I should have looked there, but stupidly uh I did not. Anyway, um so that's uh so that's that that's it. What do you think? Anything, right?
+
+[18:03] It's hard to know. You just have to know. So if you know that that the black bass is uh can take a long time without going mushy, then that's good to know. Just watch out for squeakiness. Man, I hate squeakiness.
+
+[18:13] Um, uh also, by the way, I was while I was researching that question, I found an interesting uh article that you guys might be interested in. Um called see if I was stupid enough to I was too stupid to write it down. But it's uh there's a a table I found called Slaughter Conditions on the Glycate uh glycogen concentration three minutes uh postmortem in chicken breast muscle, which is a fantastic looking article because they anesthetized they they did anesthetizing of the chicken, stunning of the chicken, a struggling chicken, and it's adapted from an article I wasn't able to find by uh person named Defremy in 1966. But it's the only reference I have to anesthetized slaughtering practices in a chicken. So if anyone can find that article and sent to me, I'd be I'd be super happy.
+
+[18:57] I think I found that in uh in maybe I found that in the biochemistry of foods, which is uh the Shahiti's 2013 version of the code. I can't believe you didn't explain Hustino. It was just like, and I came with up with the name. Stas is reading the book Liquid Intelligence. Here's why.
+
+[19:10] So like the technique is called Houstino, it's where we blend uh you know, we blend a product, like most often like a fruit or sometimes a dried fruit, sometimes vegetable, Nick Bennett does mushrooms, into a liquor with uh pectin X Ultra SPL. We spin it in a center fusion, it goes clear again, and you get these like awesome liquors. So we call them Hustino. And I originally in the book wrote the whole story about how fabulous, and we were running around screaming Justino at the top of our lungs, which is actually just a bastardization of a chef we knew named Justin. And so we just used to walk around the kitchen going, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, stino, like this.
+
+[19:45] Let's running around. This reporter calls and asks for, because we're stupid. And this reporter comes and says, What's the name of this drink? This banana drink that you did, you know, because we need to write about it. And we were like, banana, banana, banana, woo-hoo!
+
+[19:58] Hustino. Whoo! Stino. And then, like, they printed it, and then that was it. It was called Houstino, and it was too late to go back.
+
+[20:08] But then when I wrote this story, Jen's like, this is the dumbest freaking story in the world. This is so freaking stupid. Like, you can't put this in the book because A, it like there's no context to it. Like the rest of the book isn't about you running around like an idiot. It's about you running around like trying to figure out how to make things better.
+
+[20:27] And it's just it's coming out of out of nowhere. And so it's better just to be like called Hustino. I don't know why. I don't know why it's called Hustino. I see.
+
+[20:36] Okay. See? Yeah. All right. Fair?
+
+[20:38] I guess. Fair. Uh okay. Uh we already did the uh do we did the Hashi Food Truck one, right? With the sausage.
+
+[20:45] Did we do it briefly last week? Hashi Food Truck wrote in and said, Remember an issue where you covered brats or sausages uh immersion with beer? Can you share tips again? We did that one, right? I wasn't here last week, Jack.
+
+[20:54] I think we did that. Wait, you keep saying you're not here this week. How am I supposed to remember that? How am I supposed to remember that from one from one second to the next? Oh, yeah, you were waiting, hacking up lungs last week or something?
+
+[21:03] You're like, you're like hacking your lungs up all over the floor. Nice. That stuff's going around. Sam wrote in this one. I know I haven't gotten to.
+
+[21:09] Can you discuss the merits of an auto-lyce step uh in bread making? I find it much easier to mix the salt in with the flour initially uh rather than mixing into the dough after an autolysse step. Thanks, Sam. Okay, so autolyser. Autolisa, or however you're pronounced autolisa.
+
+[21:27] Is that is it French? Anyway, lice meaning breaking up. And so the the original this comes from uh a dude, dead dude, by the way, died in 2005, named uh Raymond Calvel, uh, who was kind of one of the best known kind of teachers and authors uh of about bread in his era. I mean, like everyone kind of read uh you know his book. Um and uh I think according to the my reference, he was a professor of baking.
+
+[21:54] That's pretty sweet. Professor of baking. I kind of want to be a uh not really, but I mean it's a good title. Would you take that title? Mm-hmm.
+
+[22:00] I mean you don't even do you like to bake? No, I hate it. But you still would take it, right? Professor of baking. Yeah.
+
+[22:06] You could be like on the on the anti-side. You could be like, you could be like that uh divinity professor that's in atheist. Yeah, she'd be radical professor of baking. Yeah, right, right. Like she'd be the one that everyone kind of moved away from at the at the at the baking professor conferences.
+
+[22:20] Um anyways, yeah, you know that person. You've seen them. It's does. Um so anyway, he taught uh Julia Child and Simone Beck. So there's a good pedigree, right?
+
+[22:30] Anyway, dude came up with this idea of an autolysse step. And so what he thought was happening, so oh, what is it? What are we talking about? Okay, so uh you mix together uh like the water and the yeast and the flour, not the salt, and you do an initial mix, right? And you let it sit around before you need it, right?
+
+[22:48] So you don't need it right away, right? With a K, need with a K. Uh and uh so what he thought was happening there was that um, and I forget, maybe it's done as a higher hydration. I can't I can't remember whether it's done as a higher hydration because I actually uh let me see. Uh well we'll we'll look at it anyway.
+
+[23:05] So uh what you're he thinks is happening is that amylase enzymes in the uh starch are breaking uh in the uh flour are breaking down some of the starch into sugars for food for the yeast, right? I think that's why it's called auto-lease. The thing is, like performing like uh lice means to break apart, right? So things are being broken down in it on its own, and then you need it and then you let it go. But uh, I mean, I I think that's the the origin of the term, but I don't think anybody really uh does that anymore, right?
+
+[23:38] I don't think that's the reason why people do uh that rest anymore. So it should probably come up with a different name. I think what's happening, what most people say they're doing when they do it is they let it rest, and by the way, the reason you don't put the salt in and you let it rest without the salt is you're giving the yeast and the other stuff a chance to get started in a zero salt environment because the salt is a yeast inhibitor, right? Now remember, this autolysse step is not being done on breads typically that are you know, like a lot of people now when they're doing their breads, especially like higher hydration stuff, are doing some some version of less or no need lahey style, like with uh although remember Chas already said that's my style. Remember that?
+
+[24:16] Yeah, anyway, uh no, you know, no need or or less need super long fermented breads. And for those, I mean I think it's probably ideal to put the salt in at the beginning because you're trying to prevent the yeast from working right away. Anywho, whatever. So you uh are doing it without the salt, and these things are happening, and then uh and then you go. But the the advantages I think are really beyond uh any sort of enzymatic action that's happening there.
+
+[24:40] The advantages are um you have a period of hydration that's taking place without uh kneading, right? There's also some jump starting of the yeast, but even if you were to add the salt and let it rest, right? What what you're getting there is a period of hydration. And you know, a lot of studies are that the gluten formation is really a function just of hydration, which is why you, if you're letting the dough sit for a long, long time, you like like like many, many, many hours, you don't need to need it, or you need much less kneading because the gluten will in fact form without all of that beating about, right, just by sitting around, especially if the hydration is high enough. So this step is allowing you to get some hydration into it so that you don't need to do as much kneading.
+
+[25:21] And the and the benefit of not having to do as much kneading is things like less oxidation and other things. So I think that's the reason people uh do it uh now. But I wish we had talked about it um, you know, like a month and a half ago when the question came in and when I was more freshly uh thinking about uh what's going on. But anyway, that's my feeling on it. Um you want to take a can we take a super quick break or are we totally shafted?
+
+[25:45] We're totally shafted, aren't we? We can take a super quick break. Let's do let's do a super quick break. Let's see if I can do that real quick here. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market.
+
+[26:02] Are you a local? Our Northeast regional forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their products sold at our stores, whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution methods, she's helping some of the areas's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods Market stores. Today, New York.
+
+[26:29] Tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit WholeFoodsmarket.com. All right. So here's the here I guess is probably the last one we're gonna have time for, right? Uh we're gonna have to do another freaking ketchup.
+
+[26:45] Like whether or not we do it at Star Chefs, we're gonna have to do it give you till 1 p.m. on the dot, and then the buzzer goes off. Like that? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[26:54] Uh Josh Swanson wrote in at cooking issues. Could you please give a basic intro into uh vacuum bag fermentation, pickling safety on this week's show? Uh carbonated, and then uh hashtag mmm carbonated kimchi. So um good question. So the the question look, whenever you're doing something like sauerkraut or kimchi, right, you're automatically in an anaerobic fermentation situation, right?
+
+[27:23] So from a safety standpoint, you shouldn't be any different whether or not that anaerobic uh fermentation is happening uh in uh the bottom of your pickle jar or your sauerkraut jar or whatever your you know, your kimchi jar, or whether or not it's uh happening inside of a vacuum bag. So things like uh, you know, this most of the spore forming uh bacteria they're gonna grow uh, you know, in a in a in a bad kind of a fermentation uh situation, um are going to like they they they're not gonna compete so well if you have a whole bunch of lactic acid bacteria growing in there at the same time because the pH is gonna drop and the um and the salt level is going to uh you're adding salt typically. I mean I wouldn't necessarily do it with super low salt uh just because I don't know and I'm not not that comfortable with it but um so you're you're you're putting salt in and then uh your your the lactic acid bacteria are making a lower pH and this is what's preventing the nasty stuff from growing in there. So the first thing to kind of realize is that there's fundamentally not that much of a difference between doing it the old school way and doing it in a vacuum bag. Now when you're doing um one of the disadvantages of doing it the old school way is that most people let's say you're salting cabbage when you're salting cabbage a lot of people add water because they don't have enough water from the cabbage itself to you know make a nice kraut or whatever.
+
+[29:02] Now I know I was talking to Lucas actually you know listener uh who uh friend of ours and he like beats the crap out of the cabbage with the salt so that it starts leaking enough liquid so that it can immerse itself in liquid right away so it doesn't have to worry about it. But you know or like I know like if you're making kimchi you're rubbing the salt in and letting it sit for a while it kind of pre-weeps and you have enough liquid to repack into it. So that's one way to to get around it but literally you just throw the stuff in vacuum bags and you suck a vacuum on it and shaboom first of all you've injected uh the liquid and the salt into the uh into the product which obviates the need to beat the crap out of it because you've you're crushing some of the you know you're getting the stuff into the into the pores anyway as it is and uh the other cool thing is is that they're super neat little tidy packages right you don't need to have that giant croc that you push down you don't have to worry about the giant croc that you push down. And it's just really clean and neat the problem with um the vacuum bags when you're doing it is that um they blow up I mean and they can explode so what I always do is I bag it in one I throw it in uh to uh another bag and I lightly bag that one I don't like bother uh you know sucking a huge vacuum on it and so that way and it's a larger bag that that way if the b if the smaller bag on the uh uh on the inside inflates to the point where it blows up it just blows up into your bag not into you know another now this this is conducive to um if you need to do a bunch of portions and have them uh you know like you want to have like you know like a quart at a time the coming out not as conducive if you're doing like 55 gallon barrels because there it's much more efficient to just beat the stuff down put it in a giant 55 gallon barrel and let it rock and roll. Even like a gallon I would say just do it in a normal way.
+
+[30:54] But if you're doing like a you know a head of cabbage or two I would say uh vacuum bag is uh a really really uh good way to go and totally safe and uh I've uh done it many many times. Now it will not allow the CO2 to escape as much so it will get lightly carbonated and we spoke to Alex Nackkey from Ideas and Food. They detest it. I love it. Do you like a little carbonation in your uh in your in your pickles or in your or in your uh kimchi?
+
+[31:19] Do you like kimchi? No I don't choose to eat it. Well that cyber yeah I like Jack. Jack's like really come on. Kimchi.
+
+[31:25] I see a pizza with salad on top. Do you not like kimchi because everyone loves it? Or do you actually just not like it up? Choose to eat it. I don't mind kimchi.
+
+[31:34] I just never order it. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. All right.
+
+[31:39] So uh I had something we had something else that we were doing like right now that I needed to talk that we needed to talk on air about. That's it. Some people. Uh okay, so listen. Are they almost all done?
+
+[31:51] How many? Yeah. We have uh three that are shipping. Sears all. Okay, we're talking about the Sears Alls on the way out.
+
+[31:58] So, first of all, uh, you know, we would like to apologize for how long it took us to get this the stuff out in general. Uh and like Stas and I are talking about the Sears all uh which have shipped. Uh I frankly am shocked at at I I am like so shocked. Like I am beyond shocked and angered at at Amazon how long it took them to fulfill the orders, how long they had those Sears alls in their warehouse and shipping it out. And what's really depressing is that no one believes us.
+
+[32:30] Yeah. You know what I mean? They're like, it's Amazon. They ship it the next day. And then remember, like, so like we sent them the stuff we they we had some errors in our uh in our addresses, so we gave them an updated address list for, and then date Amazon decided last week to then start suddenly start selling them live.
+
+[32:46] Live before all of our Kickstarter and Stop Starter people have gotten their orders in, and then Stas like calls me like while I'm working on something like freaks out, and we like losing our minds, and then when we tell people this is this mistake, there's people who don't believe us. Like, why would we want to why would we want to not fulfill the thing? And I said, So Stas very quickly called Amazon, had it pulled, had all those orders uh cancelled. The good news is as as many as she could, some had already been shipped out, but not a lot. Uh the good news is is that all but you said three?
+
+[33:24] Yeah, three. All but three, do we have the names of the people um or do you not want to read them out really want to read them out we don't want to read them out all but three of you have gotten uh your Sears all notification most of you have it in the mail already we've been checking oh yeah and the internationals you know obviously are gonna take longer because of custom so they've all been shipped the internationals were shipped long ago yeah but it's gonna yeah it has to go through custom service but every everything but these last three Sears alls these three lonely Sears all have been shipped out so we're super excited uh we're gonna have the steak decorator coming uh in soon I hope the proto that we're gonna approve and if you haven't gotten yours or any confirmation email Searsbookerindex.com. Yeah if you have if you have not gotten an email saying you're gonna receive your Sears all like we think you have that's not like that like zero email at all zero from anything GPS U S P S Amazon whatever. Whatever if you have heard nothing email that address. Yeah but I'm also super happy that uh people seem to be enjoying it that have it.
+
+[34:28] So I'm very gratified uh I love all the Twitter stuff that you guys are sending with the uh with the Sears all's coming in one thing I will say on the way out people are like there's some flame coming out of the front is this normal hell yeah right yes oh yeah doesn't sear some Sears all cooking issues thanks to listening to this program on heritage radio network dot org you can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio network is a five oh one C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[35:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit WholeFoodsmarket.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:01] Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Music. What was that music? Oh, that was the next song on the playlist.
+
+[1:10] Seriously, seriously. Oh, you know what that is. Um, the cheese song. All cheese. Oh yeah.
+
+[1:24] All cheese all day here on the Heritage Radio Network with the cheese song. Hey, speaking of, uh, you know, I met the guy who co-wrote uh George Clinton's new autobiography. Wouldn't that be sweet if we like what like what would it take to get George Clinton to show up at the Heritage Radio Network? Oh man. I I don't know if I should say.
+
+[1:45] I mean, I don't know. I mean I would pretty much do anything to get George Clinton here in the studio. We'll work on it. You know what I'm saying? I mean, can you think of anything?
+
+[1:53] I mean, like, that would be like the most amazing coup ever, right, Stas? Yeah. But he would hate it because I would just sit there and like freak out the whole time and be like, I love you, I love you. You know what I mean? It'd be embarrassing.
+
+[2:02] It's kind of bad when I meet people like that, actually. Yeah. I should probably not meet them. No. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[2:09] You got Jack over there in the engineering booth. And uh we were missed last week because I was at the Star Chiefs, so we didn't get a chance to send a special thanking shout out to uh Johnny and all the guys at the Underground Food Collective at uh University of Madison. We haven't been on the air since that, right? Yeah. Seems like a billion years ago, doesn't it?
+
+[2:25] Yeah. Seems like a long, long time. Uh those guys are great. We had a fantastic time in Madison. You?
+
+[2:30] Do you like it? They got those two lakes. What are they called? Don't remember. They're named after the Judge sisters, right?
+
+[2:35] Like Winona and something like this. No, it's uh Mendota and Mendona, I think are the two lakes. Really pretty up there. Yeah. Nice place.
+
+[2:43] People are nice. Okay. Milwaukee, nice too. Oh my Milwaukee, Stas, Stas and I and Peter from the Museum of Food and Drink, we were all up there doing a, you know, a museum of food and drink thing. So Stas is like, I'm not driving.
+
+[2:55] We drove from Chicago. Why? We didn't fly into Milwaukee, only God knows. We drove from Chicago to University of Madison because, you know, I've missed demos before where I have like eight billion connector flights, and like the one that we could take, like there was like, I don't know, some some ping pong of flights that we needed to take, you know, via Omaha or some crap to make it to Madison. And I was like, I'm gonna miss a demo.
+
+[3:16] So, no. So we drove we flew to Chicago and then we drove up. Stas is like, I'm not driving through Milwaukee without having some bratwurst. I'm not doing it. Isn't that pretty much what you said?
+
+[3:26] Yeah. Pretty much just like that. So we found this crazy place. What was it called? The old German beer hall or something like that.
+
+[3:32] It's modeled on the uh Hofbräu house in in uh in Munich. And um, holy crap, what a great place, right? Yeah. Usinger sausage or whatever it is. And they have this game that we played that Stas, you like this game as much.
+
+[3:46] It's called Hammer the Nail or something like this. I guess so. Like hit the nail. It's called like something like hit the nail. Anyways, for 50 cents, first of all, you go in there and you dr you s and uh you know, the the waitress who's very nice didn't understand why I didn't understand this concept.
+
+[4:01] But if you were to buy a bratwurst with one side, right, that's six bucks, six dollars, right? If you order a beer for five dollars, the bratwurst comes free. With a side, right, with a side. And so I said to the lady, I was like, is it the same Brattwurst inside, or like some sort of factory seconds or some sort of miniature bratwurst that comes with the with the with the beer or soda? But only root beer, not seltzer.
+
+[4:29] How nuts is that? So the lady ended up giving me a root because I was driving, giving me a root beer that I gave to you or Peter, and then also a seltzer for free. But she's like, No, it's the same exact. It's a f it's but it's cheaper than free. It's negative money.
+
+[4:42] It's negative money. And it made no damn sense to me. But she she thought that I was crazy for not understanding it. But anyways, back to this hit the nail thing. So they have a giant stump.
+
+[4:51] What do you think, Stas? Like three feet across, three and a half feet, maybe across, giant stump at like, you know, uh kind of like chest height, a little bit lower, like you know, work surface height, like counter counter height stump, big stump. And you buy for 50 cents a cut nail, an old fashioned, like you know, triangular shaped cut nail, and then they have a steel hammer, like like you know, Thor style hammer chained to this freaking stump, and then you have to go around each taking a turn whacking at the nail, and whoever sinks it last, they uh, you know, they buy the next round. Well, or so, you know, so we told Peter. I don't know, he didn't he wasn't believing the story I'm not saying anything about Peter.
+
+[5:29] I'm not saying that he lost twice Peter to us. I'm not saying that but he did. But the interesting thing about it is is that like in New Can you imagine this in New York like how many times did we hit the nail wrong and it went flying across the room. Yeah. It's like a bunch of eyeless people but apparently like you know those folks with their giant moss beers they have Stein clubs where you can buy the Stein and have it sta sit in the club there.
+
+[5:54] Sweet. Anyway, those guys can apparently hit that sucker in one whack. Anyway Milwaukee. Hey before we jump in um just wanted to maybe hear your thoughts on um you know the guy from Car Talk passed away this week. I didn't know that.
+
+[6:07] Yeah like when? Um yesterday. Oh yeah because I just heard him on Sunday or whatever or was Saturday, whatever whenever it's on the NPR. Yeah were you a fan? I mean I w you know I'm I'm uh I mean I really respect what they did.
+
+[6:19] I wasn't like a longtime listener but I you know my stepfather was who can't like who can't you know barely you know work a mechanical pencil. He used to like listening to it. I mean like uh I definitely enjoyed do we cheat 'em and how right which is like their their I guess fictional but maybe now real law firm do we cheat him and how because you know they had a c you've listened to Card Talk before right Seth you never listened to it once? Mm-hmm. Oh my god they were on for like twenty five years or something like that, weren't they?
+
+[6:45] Yeah. Wow. That's too bad. It's funny because sometimes I call cooking issues like the car talk for food. I wish I wish.
+
+[6:53] Now we need to get like snappier like you know things at the end and I don't know. Wish you know we have to have our listeners only ask one question on the phone. Well, what is but the car talk guys, they talk to they talk to like one person for like eight years and then they just the thing is is like the thing about them is that they can do really well or you know did really well is like completely make fun of the listener, right? We don't do that. We don't make fun of our listeners the way they did.
+
+[7:14] But it's good natured what they were doing. But they're basically called everyone incompetent who called in, right? I mean, pretty much that's what they did. You big fan, Jack? Um yeah, I was a fan.
+
+[7:26] I mean, absolutely. I mean, we do make fun of maybe like Roberta staff members, though, right? Yeah. You mean you're talking talking about Santa's little hipster? And and heesus.
+
+[7:37] Speaking of which, you know, we have a question in today, Jack, on uh maybe we can get it during the break on Roberta's pizza dough. Cool. And uh we need to find whoever like the current, like not when I mean current, like all time, but like the actual this second, like resident expert on the pizza dough. We'll get somebody on the line. Yeah, because I want to like I want to answer this question properly.
+
+[7:56] I think I have the answer, but you know, it's since I'm in Roberta's freaking pizzeria and the guy calls to ask me about uh you know Roberta's pizza dough, it would be dumb for me to, you know, speculate, right? Yeah. All right. I do have a caller on the line that's probably not gonna ask about Roberta's pizza. You never know.
+
+[8:12] You never never know. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how you doing? Doing well. Hey, um, I have a question about making uh homemade soda and actually bottling it in glass bottles with one one of those wing style cappers.
+
+[8:26] Sure. Um I I want it to be shelf stable at room temp, preferably with no benzoate or any additives or anything. Not that I'm against using that. I just it's kind of my stick. I want it to just be water flavoring since CO2.
+
+[8:40] Um so how do you recommend going about doing that? Is it even practical without some crazy equipment? Um yeah. Well, you're pretty much hosed. Um how many do you need to make?
+
+[8:54] Uh I would like to make a bunch, like for the holidays. So like how much is it? A good good size run, like probably upwards of a hundred bottles. Yeah, and how much here's the thing, right? Um you need to kill yeast on the inside of that thing.
+
+[9:11] Right. And uh it's been a long time since I've researched it, but you know, your two main problems, there are some, I think there's nothing dangerous that will grow in it, but uh, you know, there are um certain um there are certain yeasts that will grow in it and will ferment the sugar out, or that will there, I think there's also I forget it's been a long time since I've researched it because I've I've had to research self-stability in sodas before. Um, you know, there's uh I think there's some bacteria that not nothing dangerous, but stuff that's gonna ruin the flavor of the soda and also make it not clear anymore, uh assuming that it's clear. So like all of these things are gonna cause you uh problems, right? Um so there's a couple ways around this.
+
+[9:49] I don't remember what the percentage is, but you could probably hit it. I mean, well, of course they're not sodas anymore. I mean you could hit it with alcohol to stabilize it, but you need a relatively large amount of alcohol, like so it's nowhere near soda anymore. You know what I mean, to try and stabilize it. Or you could attempt to pasteurize it.
+
+[10:05] Now, I don't know what the increase so for instance, if you were to heat to pasteurize on the inside of a bottle, uh, you're gonna get extremely high internal pressures on the inside of that bottle, like very high pressures on the inside of that bottle. So, I mean, so one of the limitations when you're gonna pasteurize a soda is you'll notice that a lot of the you'll notice if you go to like uh let's say you go to a supermarket like Whole Foods, it only sells sodas that don't contain uh preservatives, right? Okay. Right. So you go to one of these places and you buy a a soda there, you'll probably notice that most of those natural sodas are relatively um undercarbonated compared to let's say coke or 7 up, right?
+
+[10:52] Sure. And um one of the reasons is is because it's more difficult for them to um pasteurize the higher the level of CO2 that's in the bottle, the more difficult the pasteurization becomes. So, you know, you could try you could try, I mean, I don't know what temperatures you need to reach, but you could put the suckers inside of a pressure cooker and like see if they blow. You know what I mean? Um are you doing bottle conditioned or not bottle conditioned?
+
+[11:20] What's that? Are you bottle conditioning it or are you force carbonating it? Uh it would it would be coming out of like a uh liquid bread setup, you know, two liter. I'd just be throwing it through a funnel into a cold bottle. Right, so you don't need the yeast to be alive or anything like that.
+
+[11:35] Okay. So yeah, I mean there are some other natural uh it's been again, it's been like over a year since I've had to research, I don't remember, but there are other like uh natural slash preservatives that kind of dissipate inside the bottle over time. Uh, you know what I was looking at actually recently, uh, but I haven't, is it but it affects the flavor of it is uh uh Rowan berries, which are mountain ash, uh, are used in liqueurs and they're astringent and red. Uh they contain naturally sorbic acid, and sorbic acid is a preservator, a preservative with antimicrobial and I believe anti yeast uh activity that you could just say that you made roanberry flavor. And then if you, you know, and then I I don't know whether there's enough levels in a standard decoction of this stuff to actually um prevent yeast growth but I mean it's at least it's from a fruit but it contains the actual stuff that's you used as a a preservative just in natural form so that you can just say I use row and berry.
+
+[12:42] I don't know if that's helpful. Right, yeah I mean well I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that if I sterilize all the equipment and then uh purge the bottles of CO2, fill them really quickly and then cap them immediately, presumably there's really no oxygen in the bottle. I mean is is that correct? Um is that a good way to handle it or just are you going to give people the liquid bread carbonator cap? No.
+
+[13:06] Yeah. Because one way to do it is to um you basically you would fill the bottles hot so that the yeast would be dead. You'd heat the you'd heat the um yeah I see you'd heat the the product right pasteurize it beforehand and then carbonate it once it's been pasteurized so that you don't have to worry about pressure problems. And you could do that in the soda bottle. Now presumably everything that's inside of the bottle is pasteurized but you know no matter how hard you work there probably be some yeast columns.
+
+[13:38] Will it last a lot longer? Yeah probably in other words it'll probably make it sta the answer is it's probably going to be a lot more stable if you do it that way. If you if you put the stuff into the plastic bottles that you're going to carbonate with with liquid bread, you like totally you know you know sterilize the you know uh sanitize the bejesus out of the glass bottle, store them upside down uh and then uh you know with a cap over them or whatever or upright set up with a cap over 'em pasteurize the stuff in the plastic bottle, chill it, then carbonate it without opening it to the atmosphere and decant it in. I mean, that's probably your best bet, but it's not a guarantee. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[14:12] Okay. Yeah, yeah. Does does benzo weight just remove that hassle? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[14:19] All right. Fair enough. But a lot of a lot of people don't like it, but you're only using it in like a small amount. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:26] Okay. All right. Thanks so much. All right, thank you. Good luck with it.
+
+[14:30] All right. All right, thanks. Bye. All right. Uh, and speaking of uh carbonated stuff, we got a couple of carbonated questions in my as well take them, right?
+
+[14:37] Uh did we deal with the pear cider last time? Jim? Can't remember. It's been so long. Uh hey, Dave.
+
+[14:43] Yeah. I do have Anthony Falco, the head pizza guy from Roberta's on the line if you want to do that. Sweet, let's do that. Yeah. All right.
+
+[14:49] You there, Falco? Hey, yeah, how's it done? Hey, thanks for thanks for talking to us. I'm just gonna scroll down in my questions and find the Roberta's related question. Kevin is using your uh recipe from the book here.
+
+[15:01] And here's here's what uh Kevin says. Uh I have a question on sourdough starter and pizza. I currently use Roberta's sourdough starter pizza dough recipe from the book, presumably, with a kettle pizza wood charcoal burning pizza oven. For those of you don't know, it's like a it's like a ring that converts like a Weber style grill into like a uh into a pizza oven that you can load in and out of without lifting the top. Um and I don't get the same oven spring with that as the crust as I as I do with a regular yeast dough recipe.
+
+[15:29] So he's saying that what he's getting is a fairly flat, dense crust, and he says that he's feeding a sourdough starter only weekly with 45 grams of AP and 35 grams of water. And both recipes are two-day cold ferments, and he brings them up before baking them, blah, blah, blah. My my feeling is is it is that it's too acid, right? It's like he's he's he's allowing a starter to get too acid, so it's going slack because uh of too much acid. Because remember, is that you think that's it?
+
+[15:54] Yeah, I mean, you c the if you're feeding your uh flour or sourdough starter weekly, it's not it's not um gonna do anything. Um he's gonna need to I mean it's fine to speed your sourdough weekly. Uh to keep it alive. That's like uh life support. If you want it to be awake to like actually, you know, do the heavy lifting of the of the leavening of your of your bread, which it sounds like it's not doing, is he's gonna need to feed it um a couple days twice a day a couple days before um he he makes the pizza and and the way he'll know it's ready to go is it will be like bubbly and frothy and light.
+
+[16:46] You know, if it looks like just soupy wet flour, then you know, it's it's somewhere dormant inside that uh mixture is is the the ye the combination of the yeast and the bacteria that he needs to to leaven it go. But unless it's actually, you know, there's a the percentage of those yeast and bacteria that are awake and ready to fucking rock and roll are excuse me, sorry, um is is gonna be really low. And so he needs to bring that percentage up by feeding them, you know, multi waking them up. Because if he's I'm assuming he's if he's feeding it weekly, he's keeping it as a refrigerator. That's what I feel he doesn't say, but I assume and and like I'm super glad I'm talking to you because I didn't even think that the sucker wasn't rising at all.
+
+[17:35] Like it was like not active enough. I thought it was probably inactive because they were dying and his dough is too acidic, so the gluten was was not uh, you know, was not as uh extensible. It was losing some power out of that. You know how like when sourdough goes too sour, it like, you know, it it it can flatten out and the c but then the crust would also be too would be too white, right? It wouldn't look right if he was actually going too acidic on it.
+
+[17:58] Yeah, I mean it would just a lot of things would be off. Um but to me if it's when he says dense and and lack of spring, I mean I you know, I'm assuming that he's cutting it open and there's no crumb, you know, when he says it's dense, but it's like and the crumb would be the those little holes in the indication that like fermentation is happening. Yeah. Um I think it's exactly what are your thoughts for someone like this who's not gonna you're not you know, probing, doing it feeding it once a week and keeping a relatively small amount. What are your thoughts on keeping it at a higher hydration level so that it kinda wakes up faster and then like doing like the uh yeah, his his his he's retarding his yeast.
+
+[18:38] If he's putting it in the refrigerator, he's retarding it. So, you know, if you were following our dough instruction, um we are are mixing and resting and mixing and then we're retarding the dough for for a long s uh fermentation overnight. Um but if it's already retarded, then the whole thing is just gonna be too retarded to work. Yeah. It's I know I know it's all bread baking terminology, but it just sounds funny when you say it that way.
+
+[19:07] Yeah. Um so he you know, he's got he's gotta get it awake. So he's gotta bring it out to room temperature and it's really a visual thing, you know, and and and y and you can smell it too. So it's a visual and olfactory uh indications are gonna be there before you put your sourdough in. It should be like literally like you know foaming like bubbling up and like you know you can see all the little holes in the top.
+
+[19:36] When you shake it it's like light and and and like the consistency of foam. It's actually a foam that is is what it is because it's it's a you know a liquid with a lot of uh you know uh air gapped in it so it is a foam and so you know if it's if it's dense and and like a slurry of just flour and water it's just not the yeast and you know they're in there it's just not awake and in my experience as a sourdough starter if I wanted to use it after having it uh in the refrigerator for a week I would give myself two days I would bring it out like you know three days before I was going to start in the morning and you know I would feed it and then and at night and leave it in a warm place like you know preferably 75 degrees 75 to 80 degrees and then uh and then that night I would feed again and then the next day I would feed again and then I that that last seeding that night before I would expect to see some some activity and a lot of like e boozy smell coming out of it by the end of the night. Right. No way to cheat it in one day though back to life out of the fridge. No I I you know I like so you know you're cry like when I use commercial yeast I I'm crossing my fingers you know every time it's like you don't it's you're dealing with these living creatures you know and you're trying to convince them to do something for you on a m you know microbiological scale.
+
+[21:04] So you know it's a sourdough is is you know it's very tricky and and uh you know I tell people this in uh in my pizza class I'm like just you gotta get you gotta really become familiar with this process with the just commercial yeast before you start playing with sourdough and then once you start playing with sourdough I mean everyone's is going to be different so you really got to get to know yours. Um so yeah I mean that's that would be that would be my guess. I mean if he has uh you know if any of this is wrong if I've just speculated way too much then he should email me at Anthony at Roberta's pizza dot com. And I would love to continue to get him get going on the right path. Well we really appreciate it.
+
+[21:48] And also uh did Millennium Falco pizza made by you or named for you or both it was it was a uh invention of mine uh from the early days in the pizza kitchen um and it's an homage to my uh Sicilian uh great grandmother who used to make pizza from scratch and she used to make it similar to that you know but not in a round you know kind of neo neo neapolitan kind of way but she used to do it in a pan like a like a thicker crust. But it was like that she put the breadcrumbs and the onion sauce and you know that's that's the way she would make uh pizza. So it's kind of a kind of an homage to that. Nice. Listen, we really appreciate you coming on and uh straightening this out for Kevin.
+
+[22:36] Hopefully he can get his uh stuff in order. Maybe he can come up with a schedule so that if he's gonna do it every week he could bring it out a couple days before feed it up use it put it in the fridge you know it's not that much harder. No, absolutely not. I mean, he just needs to bring it out. I that's what that's just based on the information I have is bring it out a little early and just get it, get it woken up.
+
+[22:55] You know, it's a little retarded, get it a little, you know, a little more a little more ready to rock. All right. Well, thanks so much. Let's go to a break. We'll come back with more commercial uh more commercial, more cooking issues.
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+[23:06] More commercial Hey, and also if uh, you know, if if listeners want to listen every Tuesday at 7 p.m., Roberta's Radio. They have their own show, Roberta's Radio. You can hear a lot more from Falco. And uh with that being said, we'll be right back. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market.
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+[23:42] Are you a local? Our Northeast regional forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their products sold at our stores. Whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution methods, she's helping some of the area's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods Market stores.
+
+[24:12] Today, New York. Tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Hey, my name is Sam KB. I just moved to New York, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[24:35] You recognize that voice? No, who's that? From Underground Meets. Oh, yes, Johnny. Sam.
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+[24:40] Sam. Oh, nice. I wouldn't l I wasn't listening. He did say my name is Sam. I wasn't listening.
+
+[24:43] I was looking at the things. Jeez. Sorry, Sam. I wasn't listening. Now I know what it's like to be Stas.
+
+[24:52] Boom! Wow. Boom. Boom. Oh my God.
+
+[24:57] Except you weren't shopping for shoes. I wasn't shopping for shoes. I was looking at the next question. I go to pay less. So that does not require online shopping.
+
+[25:04] So John Stewart from Madison met us when we were out there and said that he thought that it was at times shocking how mean I am to Nastasia. But let me just say in my defense, you gotta know her. I don't know if that's a defense. I'm just saying that, like, you know, the people are only only hearing what they hear on the radio. Like, you know, like she, you know, when it's like, you know, they can't see that she might be sitting there with like a needle like poking me the entire time.
+
+[25:36] You know what I mean? Not happening. Not it not a literal needle. No, you people. Everyone, everyone's out.
+
+[25:43] Anyway. Uh now Stas is giving me the head wag back and forth. Okay. Kevin Scott writes in about freeze dryers. Hey, have you guys played around with the harvest right freeze dryer or heard from anyone who has?
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+[25:59] It looks like a reasonable alternative to lab freeze dryer, but it's difficult to tell how well the thing is built and how consistent it will be over time. Uh, thanks, Kevin Scott. Now, uh, Kevin, so I someone asked me once uh before on the uh uh on Twitter, I think actually, and I was a big Twitter, like, you know, back and forth about it. Uh I you know, I have not used it. I did uh look at their website.
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+[26:25] This was what was that stuff? It's like a year ago or something. It was like a year ago. I looked at their website. And the layout of the machine is fundamentally fairly similar to the old uh Virtus uh freeze dryers with the with the door that opens up.
+
+[26:41] Um, you know, and I the things that I was researching at the time were you know, the in any freeze dryer, like some of the important um things you have to look for are the uh how many liters uh the cold trap is, right? Because in order to freeze dry, you need to be able to remove the water from the product. And if you if you can't thaw out your cold trap in the middle of your freeze drying run, it's just you can't do it. So, you know, you're limited, the quantity of product that you uh can freeze dry is not just limited by the size of the chamber that you're freeze drying in, it's also limited by the size of your cold trap. Uh so that's one thing to look at.
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+[27:19] And another thing in terms of quality is the uh quality of the product is the temperature of the cold trap. And you know, from everything I've read, colder is better. Now the ideas and food guys, Alex and Aki, uh gave us a a food uh um a freeze dryer, you know, uh before they moved, uh, but we haven't had time to play with it yet because there's a problem with the um there's a problem with the vacuum gauge. So I need to get get that working. So I don't have a lot of practical experience with it, but from what I can look from a purely specification level, the uh the uh harvest rights seems like uh a good deal.
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+[27:54] And I'd you know, because it's only I think like maybe three or four grand or something compared to like 20 for a regular one. So if anyone has any experience with it, I'd appreciate a tweet in or a call in uh, you know, to let uh let them know what uh what's going on, right? Yeah. Okay. Uh now Jim wrote in a while ago.
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+[28:15] This is for one of the older shows that we're trying to catch up to. Uh tell us if we've done this already. Had a bumper crop of pears this year, so I made a batch of pear cider. Wanted some sparkle in the bottle, so I added a little sugar to each, capped it, and left it alone. One month later I opened the first bottle and it sprayed everywhere.
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+[28:31] Spend an hour cleaning the kitchen. That's a lot of spray. I don't want pear. I mean, a pair thing, you know, thank hey. Listen, you weren't making cherry cherry wine, but that would have sucked, right?
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+[28:40] Maybe you did add cherries to the pear and it's bright. I don't know. Well, probably not, right? Probably not. Okay.
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+[28:45] Uh clearly I added too much sugar, and now they're all too carbonated. Any way to get the rest of these bottles open without an explosion, or are all 20 bottles lost. There is clearly yeast sediment at the bottom of each bottle uh that creates many nucleation sites for uh carbonation to explode. So I wonder if I should try disgorging it first, freeze a neck in cold salt water, etc. Any advice greatly appreciated.
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+[29:07] And for what it's worth, what little was left did taste good. Peaceful thoughts, Jim in Durham, North Carolina. Now, uh that's a good question. I've never done uh disgorgment before, but I mean it's been it people do it for hundreds and hundreds of years, so presumably you can uh you can do it. Um, you know, with the salt and ice bottles upside down, you have to rack, but you're gonna have to rack the settlement, you know, you're gonna have to keep the bottles pointed uh, you know, at the angle, and you can look at pictures of where they do it in champagne for reference, and then just keep rotating them uh, you know, over the course of I don't know how however long it takes to get the sediment down in the bottom of the bottle and then do your freeze off and cap and blast it out.
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+[29:48] Um and assuming that you have a long enough neck in it to hold all the sediment, you should sediment, you should be able to do it. Um, you know, another way is you the problem is you want to keep, you know, kind of oxygen away from another way to do it is to literally open these things inside of uh inside of a giant plastic bag inside of a bucket, uh, and then um you know, cap it so that you're not so that you know the CO2 is gonna come off, it's gonna form a CO2 layer, uh, and then let it settle over the course of a couple days in a plastic bucket or a carboy, right? Uh, and then um rack the stuff off the top and then force carbonate it instead of bottle instead of like uh instead of conditioning it, bottle conditioning it, force carbonate it back to level it was. And if you're lucky, you know, you're not gonna have uh too much oxidation over that uh period. But that should also work if you don't want to go through the disgorgement.
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+[30:44] And that's probably what I would do because I would be so angry and I would want to do it right away that this thought of sitting there and rotating them day after day would like drive me nuts. So I would probably just stick them inside of a plastic bag and go spray. Make sure your plastic bag doesn't smell bad. A lot of plastic bags have weird kind of you ever smell inside of a plastic bag? Yeah.
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+[31:00] Yeah. I mean Stas and I do it because we're like, who are you to tell me not to put my face inside of a plastic bag, right? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow.
+
+[31:11] Wow. You know, her oven very small. So I don't even have an oven. Oh come on, you don't have an oven anymore. Yeah.
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+[31:19] Well whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How do I how am I just figuring this out right now? Your most recent apartment has a door person, but not a microwave convection. Microwave confection? How's that?
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+[31:30] Not good. I put a pumpkin in and the ceramic cracked. What do you mean? What what's ceramic? The whatever the the microwave has as a base.
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+[31:39] Oh the power. Oh, and the powder plate. That's so weak. I don't know. Is it yours or is it the landlord's?
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+[31:44] The owners. I need to get a new one. I need to ask her for a new one. Look, I are you even allowed to rent uh space in New York that doesn't have like cooking appliances in it? Yeah, that's weird.
+
+[31:54] Yeah, yeah, you are. I've seen like just a hot plate in some apartments, you know. You mean like a dorm? No. No.
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+[32:02] Is there a space for an oven that's now filled with some other stuff? Dishwasher, which is crazy. Why do you need to wash dishes if you don't ever cook? Yeah. I mean I cook a lot.
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+[32:12] I found a way to get around the convection. What's that? No, like smaller smaller trays and stuff. So this person was like a raw foodist. No most apartments in the building have this thing.
+
+[32:26] But yet they pay for a doorman. Yeah. That's very odd. All right. Uh I'm just gonna I'm gonna just ignore ignore it because my brain is uh fried.
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+[32:36] So a c a couple of weeks ago we had a uh a couple of people uh give advice on why they we had this issue where this uh you know, I forget who it was, but they were rendering fat using kind of the modernist cuisine uh technique of putting the uh fat in in a jar and then uh rendering it in the pressure cooker with a little baking uh soda, right? Remember that? Mm-hmm. And then I had a speculation and Chris Young said yeah, he didn't know why. Um but then I had a couple other people write in.
+
+[33:02] But I don't think we've ever figured it out yet. Eric Eric, uh I don't get it, you know, get his last name, uh a lot of interesting uh ideas and some links to some articles about um sp he was specifically focusing on the uh how the uh how a change in temperature can change the um the solubility of gases o over time. Uh but uh you know, and then uh Dave Kleiman wrote in and says when he when he does confit in a jar that it bubbles for hours even after you take it out. So one of the you know what the the thing we're gonna have to figure out if if we can't even figure out is is the stuff actually cold when it's still bubbling or not because that means something you know other than that and and the assumption is is that it's sealed inside of the jar and it's bubbling inside of a sealed jar. Those are the two assumptions.
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+[33:44] So I don't think we've gotten to the bottom of it yet. But you know if I ever have enough time on the radio I could read Eric's entire response but I can't because Stas gives me the the the a finger wag. Do you know that you think Stas like you should just mark your finger wag. You know anyway. Andrea Perodi writes in regarding uh sous vide cooking and celepton derma.
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+[34:07] Uh I just got my very first immersion circulator an ANOVA in the mail and I'm excited but I don't have a vacuum machine. That's fine. You don't need a vacuum machine to uh do most of the stuff. 90% of the stuff you do I like to say it's my favorite phrase 90% of the stuff you uh you can do with a circulator you don't need a vacuum machine for. Uh can you please recommend some of your favorite must cook as soon as you get a circulator food foods uh thank you very much for the work and knowledge you share on the radio I wish learning stuff could always be as fun as listening to cooking issues.
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+[34:32] Well that's very nice. Very nice Stas is giving me I doubt that face. I wish you guys we need like you know what uh can you guys capture some of these faces and then we can just like flash them onto the onto the internet I'd be more interested to see like an artist interpretation you know someone that just listens to the show. Oh yeah. I know that's why it'd be fun yeah who knows what they'd make you look like anyways uh let me eggs right so specifically like you know banging out like a hundred sixty two degree eggs for like a party or a sixty-three degree egg Celsius of course is like the miracle creamy egg that uh you can't otherwise do and then steaks for parties I think is pretty you know a pretty good one uh that it you know I would do like a thick rib steak at at like 55 Celsius uh cool it down to 50 and then well I would hit it with a C resolve.
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+[35:21] But uh you know you can finish however you want on a super hot um thing. What Sties you have a circle what are your favorite things to do in the circle use it. Why? What's wrong with it? What the hell's wrong with you?
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+[35:32] Brain damage. It's the new one and I just don't like it. You know you you wish you had gotten one of the old ones? Mm-hmm. All right well we'll work on that.
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+[35:40] Um so uh those I mean those are like right up there then like reheating like or keeping mashed potatoes warm is a fantastic uh application of it. Uh all depends on what you like to cook. I mean the first thing you know the most people the first thing out of the box that they do with it is proteins or eggs I would say. Right? Some something something like that.
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+[36:01] Uh and uh writes PS just came back from Turkey managed to get my hands on a couple hundred grams of Celep the one to make Donderma not the uh less than 10% Celep hot drink mix. I don't know yeah that that hot drink makes it says it's Celep no relation. Like maybe it has some in it but it says it tastes like some sort of a grainy beverage. Isn't that sound gross grainy beverage? Grainy beverage.
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+[36:23] For those of you that don't know what we're talking about Celep is the orchid uh the orchid uh bulb powder that is used to make the stretchy Turkish ice cream uh and then wants to know would we like to play with it? Sure, I love playing with it. Uh you know the person who um did the most work on Celep so I first heard of uh Celep from Harold McGee when he was uh doing uh work with us at the French Culinary Institute on alternate uh ice cream textures. So Celep was one and the French pins and Needles ice cream was another one. Uh and uh so he first talked about it, and then Kent Kirshenbaum at the Experimental cuisine collective at NYU did a lot of work on it uh back in the day.
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+[37:00] Um so he's actually characterized a lot of the polymers that are in it. He's a polymer chemist. So you might want to look up, he might have published uh something on it, I'm not sure, but you know, he's always happy to talk celep, so you can talk to him about I love it because I haven't had it in a while. I actually just like I like using it, right? So that he so they uh substitute now uh um conjac, which is uh I think it's conjac they use, which is you know another glucamanin.
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+[37:23] Uh but anyways, uh yeah, I mean I always love to love to play with some. Anyway, um Stas is giving me the the the Stas, people don't wear watches anymore. Why is that still a valid thing to do? Taps. Who knows what it means?
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+[37:34] I know, but like what if you did that to a kid? Would they have any idea what that means? No, I don't think so. Right? They wouldn't know.
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+[37:40] That's weird, but true. Yeah. Uh Jay Travis writes in, hey guys, sorry this is a long one. I've tried my hand on doing a bird porchetta uh on uh in the kit uh on chicken with great results, and this year I am attempting to do a showstopping turkey version for Thanksgiving, inspired by Kenji Lopez's uh my version goes like this. Disassemble the and I haven't seen Kenji's post on this, but I have a lot of experience rolling birds.
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+[38:00] Um a lot of experience rolling birds. Uh disassemble bird, brine breast meat, uh grind dark meat into a loose sausage, roll the breasts around the ground sausage and fashion into a roll with cling wrap, then into the freezer. Take it out, wrap it up in the skin. Uh what? Tie off and seal into the bath at dark uh at the dark meat temp.
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+[38:21] Take out when done, refrigerate because he's not using TG, right? Not using transglutaminase. I always use TG in this. I would use TG. T G better.
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+[38:28] Uh take out when done, refrigerate before opening, reserve pouch juices and fry up to crisp the skin. It's amazing. But my question is to these. When I get to my aunt's house for Thanksgiving, I cannot deep fry this thing in her bustling kitchen. Uh, how much am I going to sacrifice this great skin if I tent it and then gently reheat it uh with uh you know on with roasting it at her house, would it benefit for me to drop the alkalinity uh in the cooking bag a little, maybe serve it chilled with aioli and greens instead, help Jay Travis.
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+[38:54] Well, first of all, you can't serve a Thanksgiving turkey uh cold. Sorry, you can't. You know what I mean? You're already pushing your luck by not serving it in whole bird format, right, Stas? Yep.
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+[39:04] Right. Now I have done uh tubed uh Thanksgiving rolls with stuffing in them, and they're good. And by the way, this is a good way to get uh actual stuffing on the inside of the bird if you should like that, which I do. It tastes delicious, even if it's microbiologically unsafe because you can roll hot stuffing in and then do a cook right. Not with this protocol.
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+[39:23] You there's safe ways to do it. I've you know, and I've done it, I don't have time to get get into it now. But I think your main problem here if you're gonna do a roast off, is that you're gonna overcook the breast meat. This is why there's the fundamental inversion in this technique that you see also in Turduckins and any situation like this. Dark meat should go on the outside.
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+[39:43] So instead of sausaging it, right, I would uh I would pound out the dark meat into a thin layer and then roll the uh breast meat on the inside of it. That way, even if you're brining it, right? You don't if if you're gonna do a roast off step, which by the way, by the way, other than frying, roasting is gonna give you, yeah, roasting's gonna give you good uh good skin. So, but you're gonna need to roast it for a lot longer and you're gonna overcook the breast meat. I mean, pretty much.
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+[40:14] That's it. Right. Another thing you can do is you well, you could wrap a layer of pork sausage around the outside and then the skin around it. But I would use T G. But I would swap it up and I would have the dark meat on the outside because it can withstand the roasting comparatively better than the uh breast meat can.
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+[40:28] Does that make sense, though? Yeah. Okay. And um what? We already have to end?
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+[40:34] Yep. Oh man, it's not even 50 yet. Well, what time do we have to leave? What time what time do we have to leave? Jack.
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+[40:42] God five minutes. Five minutes? All right. Now four. I'm gonna rip through them.
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+[40:47] Brett wrote in about MSG. Hey, Dave Estasa Jack and everyone else who's there today. I have a question regarding MSG, but not the typical one worrying about bogus health concerns. Rather, I'm curious how to make the best use of it. Do you have any general tips or guidelines when it comes to cooking with MSG?
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+[41:00] Is MSG a universal augmenter of flavor? Or are there particular types of foods and dishes where it really shines and others where it should be left off? How should I go about balancing it with the salt being used to season the dish? I look forward to your insight. Thanks.
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+[41:10] Love the show. Brett from Portland, Oregon. Okay. I typically, the thing with MSG is if you add too much MSG, it's the same kind of feeling you get as when you add too much like seaweed or dashi. Everything to me, and I've said this before on the show, starts taking on kind of a dashy kind of a note.
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+[41:28] I've used it in cocktails before, but really only in savory cocktails, and I found that it adds it adds a savoriness to certain cocktails that you're like, wow, that's nah, it's not good, right? But we did I did a bittermelon cocktail that wanted a savory note, and the MSG was good in it. That's what we did that thing that uh somebody dubbed uh Doritos bitters at the uh Mofat event like a year ago. So in things like cocktails, I mean I think it has relatively limited application for things that are savory. In foods, I mean, you just have to be careful that you don't want it to become a prevalent flavor.
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+[42:00] If it becomes a prevalent flavor, then you're overdoing it. I tend not to use it in the kitchen except for when I'm making things like snack foods, but uh because they really, really need it. They need to get punched up by by a little MSG. Uh I mean, naturally, you probably could reduce the salt level a little when you add MSG, which is why everyone's rushing to add like like good labeled MSG uh substitutes when they're making low salt things. But like I said, I once had an Alfredo that was low sodium Alfredo, and it had uh other, you know, uh MSG-like things, not sodium versions of it, obviously, because they're trying to reduce the sodium.
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+[42:35] And to me, it tasted Asian, it tasted like dashi. So I just be careful of it that way. But uh don't be afraid to use it. You know, I would add small amounts of it because you don't want it to become noticeable or overwhelming. Noticeable MSG, I think is more offensive than noticeable salt, right?
+
+[42:48] What do you think, Stas? Yeah. Stas still thinks she's allergic to MSG. Are you over that now? I'm over it.
+
+[42:53] Good, thank God. Jacob Farkas writes in about citron. My name is Jacob Farkas. I emailed you last year about a molecular gastronomy class I was teaching at the school I work for. You know how I feel about the term, that's fine, we're not gonna get into it because I don't have time.
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+[43:04] I was hoping to have the students uh visit Dave, but you mentioned that his lab was not a place for high school students, definitely not, right, Stas? Or anyone, really, at this point. Uh in any event, I have a question about infusing vodka with citron using the uh nitrogen cavitation method. Although remember, it doesn't use nitrogen, it uses nitrous oxide and the shifting solubilities of nitrous oxide, which is really relatively soluble gas at relatively lower pressures. So I really prefer if you people call it nitrous rather than uh nitrogen cavitation, which is a different kind of lab technique for rupturing cells.
+
+[43:33] Anyways, and I you know I had someone that kind of misunderstood the technique and was actually trying to measure cell rupture as a function of uh effectiveness in infusion. I'm like, it's not it's not the same. Anyway, nitrous. Uh uh, I have a one-liter whipping siphon. I would like to make a half uh to one liter of infused vodka.
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+[43:49] Can I use the method and what ratio of citron to vodka and for how long should I let it infuse? Well, I haven't actually done that infusion uh before, so I can't give you uh specifics, but if you have a standard recipe that you like, in general, when you're doing rapid infusion, what what's happening is is um you're trying to pull less of the kind of bitter and detergent-y notes out of the um out of peel, specifically in citrus, uh, like less of those kind of notes out. And so what you're gonna do is add a lot more than you would normally, and then use the rapid infusion to pull a lot of the top notes out. So I would say that if you have a typical infusion that's gonna last, you know, a week or two weeks uh in a bottle, I would do 50% more of um 50 to 100% more of the citron, and then I would do a rapid infusion with two or three chargers, and I would do it for like four or five minutes, see how it is, and if it needs to go, if if it's not strong enough yet, then I would do another four to five minutes. Now, if it's too strong, then you're gonna want to do like one minute, two minutes.
+
+[44:58] A lot of my recipes are one or two minutes, especially on things that are extremely bitter, like uh coffee or chocolate. But the you know the thing with uh with citrus is you want to get ride that edge of where it takes on that ugly detergenty note. Now bear in mind I am not a fan of such beverages as lemoncello, and also bear in mind that every commercially available citron flavored vodka you have is flavored with essences and not with straight peels, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:24] So give it a shot. So what I would do is make a small batch, remembering that you can't scale up and down. So you but you can, of course, add more. So you could do a test batch with a small amount and then add more to that batch and rehit it again without without stuff. But if you you know, what I typically will do is I'll I'll make a smaller test batch and then I'll scale it up once, and that'll get me close enough to what I'm doing that I can make a recipe that I can make again and again and again.
+
+[45:44] Uh okay. Uh Philippe Lament uh wrote in uh book is finally coming out. So stoked. I have a sticky question for you. I'm trying to make an alcoholic ice cream for a Paco Jet.
+
+[45:56] I want to retain the raw alcohol taste. I've been using cognac and calvados. Do you have any suggestions on ratios or stabilizers I can use to have a nice consistency? All right, so you're gonna have to make a fluid gel with something like a gel an to pump up the consistency of it because you're not gonna get it frozen hard enough. Uh typically for ice creams uh that have a good uh that don't melt down very much when they're warm, i.e.
+
+[46:15] are gonna have uh you know properties that you like. I like to do a half a percent, one half of one percent, z five grams into a liter of something like Kelka gel F. And that is going that'll stabilize it. But remember, don't heat it with your alcohol because you want the raw alcohol taste. Make a separate fluid gel and then mix your alcohol in, and hopefully that's gonna work for you.
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+[46:32] Uh John Cherney uh painted his uh has a Searzole and he says it looks great because he painted his propane bottle gold because he hated uh the green on the uh search. He dislikes the camping green color. So he sent us his pimped out gold uh Searzol, right, S. Uh and then uh LA Nassar, by the way, who said thank you, rhymes with NASCAR, right? Wants to know about carbonating opal vine.
+
+[46:56] So opal vine is like the higher alcohol version of apple cider where you dope with sugar to get the alcohol content of it higher. Wants to know whether or not uh I've done it. I haven't, but what I would recommend, instead he he was gonna do priming sugar, right, and bottle condition it. Uh Ellie, what I would do is just get the liquid bread set up or use a soda stream, carbonate a small amount of it on on your own right now. Don't any, and then taste it and see whether you like it.
+
+[47:19] If you do, then you could try the sugar stuff to carbonate it, or you could just force carbonate it and call it uh call it a day. Um Ross. Ooh, that's gonna do it. Ross, I'm gonna read your story about Aruba next time because it goes also with King Inbert uh Ken's story about uh about how there's not enough good information for safety on Sou V, which is an important thing. I can't rush through it, so we'll get it next time.
+
+[47:43] Uh, along with Daniel's questions from San Jose about rose petals, and that was cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[48:18] Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit to donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Deer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:37] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you late! LATE! On Roberta at Roberta's Pizzeria, the editorial network in Bushwick Brooklyn. Call in your questions to 718497.
+
+[0:51] What is it? That's it. 784972128. We can't be nice today. No niceties.
+
+[1:04] But we do have a caller who has been patiently waiting. Oh geez. Uh caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, it's Michael Nathan. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[1:14] I'm doing fantastic. How are you? All right. I hear you're running late today. Yes.
+
+[1:19] Yes, I am. But I'm sure you know that well enough to call in late and only have to wait a couple of minutes. Right. I I I I've got the whole schedule figured out. No problem.
+
+[1:28] Sweet. I just wanted to let you know. I I I just got this uh cocktail book. I I don't know if you've heard about it yet, called Liquid Intelligence. Oh, I have heard of that.
+
+[1:36] I hear it's terrible. Okay. I I'm actually I'm learning a lot from this book. It's fantastic. Yeah, there are, as uh I think you point out a couple other people, there are a couple of typos in it that we're gonna fix for the next printing.
+
+[1:49] There's just so many. There's so yeah, there's so many data points in it that um you know, for those of you that are listening, uh like one of the Manhattan recipes, I think Michael, you might have pointed this out along with a c along with a couple other people, like a one just got dropped, so it says a fat three quarters of vermouth instead of one and three quarters, right? Is that you that pointing that out? Yeah. I did notice that.
+
+[2:09] But uh, you know what? I uh my book has a millionaires, and you wouldn't believe the erotiction from our cuisine, so you know don't go down. Yeah, also we had a weird thing where the the when they did the layout on one of the charts, like a bunch of the acid percentages got switched into just weird numbers. But don't worry, people we'll get it all fixed. But but in spite of that, uh you know, forget a little details, man.
+
+[2:31] This is a great book. I'm really, really enjoying it. I'm learning so much about like the details of how things chill and different kinds of textures and the different acid ratios and everything. My uh I've always been a kind of a seat of the pants cocktail maker, and I can see this is gonna up my game considerably. Nice, I appreciate it.
+
+[2:45] Yeah. Yeah, just wanted just wanted to say that because uh yeah, I'm really looking forward to working my way through the whole thing. All right, sweet. And uh, you know, one of the things in the book that um uh you know uh address in in the f in the future is that uh currently our lime uh clarification technique that I use, you know, you wouldn't use it at home. You wouldn't use it if you didn't have a centrifuge.
+
+[3:08] Or if you had a really good centrifuge, like you know, when I say good, I mean you know, upwards of uh 40,000 Gs or something like this. Um, you know, you could clarify lime juice without any of the clarification aids that I use. But I think one of the things for research, maybe maybe you can look into it, uh, is uh this uh fungal chitasan. The because uh the one thing that we use that's not uh vegetarian is this chitisan, which is derived from Frimp cells. It's non-allergenic.
+
+[3:35] I'm not worried about it from a seafood allergy standpoint. Uh and it is spun out, so it's not in the product that people are consuming, but it is a processing aid that we're using that's of animal origin and I'd like to be able to get rid of it. So that's like one of the that's you know 'cause I I think I might mention somewhere in the I can't remember because it's a long book but uh and I've said it on the air many times is that I think it's entirely fair for you know a vegetarian to assume that they can not worry about the cocktail menu unless you know unless it obviously states something of animal origin, you know. Right, right, right. Although isn't that the case with some wine finding agents too?
+
+[4:11] Oh yeah. But the the issue with wine finding agents that no one tells you what they're using. So you know chitosan is used as a wine finding agent. Right. You know there's I've I've always put this in the category of things I'm not gonna worry about too much.
+
+[4:24] But you're right, I probably wouldn't use it myself so right. That's the thing. So there's a f you know it's like I've always said like everyone's drawing a line, right? I mean you pay taxes to people that that eat meat all the time. We you know we pay tax I'm sure like many of the people that you know we hire in the government are you know not just meat eaters but like actual bad people like you know torturers, murderers of people, like you know, mutilators of animals, all kinds of horrible stuff.
+
+[4:47] So it's like a question of like well yeah it's a question of where's the line, you know what I mean? And like what but you know uh it's I think it's always good to push uh I think it's always good to push as far as you can in you know in a direction uh eh you always learn more you push the more you learn. That makes sense to me so do you have any ideas of things that can be used in the photosan for the lime? Well there is in the U in the uh in the EU there is a um a fungally derived kitosan and we got a sample of it at the bar, but it was one of those things where I didn't have time to run the test myself and it it fell through the cracks. Like no one was able to come up with a good protocol for it.
+
+[5:24] It comes in powdered form. And you know, everyone was used to using the solution, the chitasan solution. So, you know, I and I I don't know that it's you know fully available here in in the US, but there's no reason why chitosan can't be uh fungally produced, and I think that you know, with the increasing uh number of people that want, you know, full disclosure of the processing aids that are used in things that you'll see more of a switch towards it. Because I think just in general, regardless of, you know, uh regardless of anything, people are like, ah, shrimp shells, you know what I mean? Right, well, and uh that latest uh Lucky Peach pointed out the shrimp industry is uh royal mess, so you know, getting away from that would be good anyhow.
+
+[6:04] Oh, were they talking about the slavery in Thailand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, uh, you know, that at first came to my attention, I don't know, a couple of months ago, and I was like, I can't believe it.
+
+[6:14] I can't I can't I can't believe it, you know? Uh it's disgusting. Yeah. Well, it just goes to show the more the more you investigate, the worse things are in general, right? This is true.
+
+[6:25] Sometimes you don't want to know. Yeah. Is the uh clarified lime juice freeze well? No. No.
+
+[6:31] What about in uh cryogenic freeze? No. Oh. I've never tried. Like uh, like actually like completely immobilize it, like subutectic uh freezing.
+
+[6:41] Yeah, yeah, we have a ridiculous freezer here. Why don't you try it and tell me? Okay. Yeah, we'll do it. We got the we got a big bad centrifuge and a nice freezer.
+
+[6:49] So yeah, I'll see I'll I'll give that a shot. I would freeze it as rapidly as possible so you don't have um so you don't have uh increased concentration effects as it's freezing down. Uh right, right. If we put stuff uh flat in a bag and throw it in that freezer, man, it freezes very rapidly. Yeah, let me know.
+
+[7:06] So what I typically do, uh or now I've just started doing it with the leftover Clary Lime because we have a lot of it, is uh I sugar it and heat it with a little uh lime peel and turn just turn it into a cordial. And then it's delicious. Oh, that sounds good too. Yeah. And so it's a you know, it's a cordial that like is already clarified and so you can use it in uh, you know, st stir drinks for a cordial flavor.
+
+[7:28] And it's quite good because you know, once you heat it and you know, once you take old lime juice or sugar and you heat it, then it goes from being that awful old lime juice to being something different, you know? Right, right, right. Sounds amazing. Well listen, I want to take up your whole show, but uh great talking to you. Congrats on the book, right?
+
+[7:44] Thanks a lot. Hope uh well, next time you're out uh on this coast, stop by and see us. I would never miss a chance. All right. Okay.
+
+[7:51] All right, thanks. Uh so we do have one more caller that was waiting. All right. All right, sweet sweet. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[7:57] Hey David Suda from Silver Spring, Maryland. How are you? Hey, doing all right, what's up? Well, first of all, I want to, you know, just echo the uh the last caller. Book is fantastic.
+
+[8:06] Uh, you know, went through it pretty quickly. Uh just a wealth of information there. And it was just I think one of the things that surprised me the most was just how well, you know, your voice, uh which I know from from the radio show came through just amazingly through the book. Like I was I found myself bursting out laughing in disinfections. So just uh Hopefully it wasn't a serious section.
+
+[8:25] Hopefully it wasn't like the section where you were laughing at how like poorly the recipe was going, but some of that, some of that. But one one complaint that I do have is that you really did tease us with the red hot poker and then you're like, Well, I'm not gonna tell you how to do it. Well, I mean, look. I mean the issue with the I mean i I I c I you know, I can tell anyone how how to make it. You know, I can I could I don't have it at my fingertips right now, but you know, I'm never gonna sell them.
+
+[8:53] So I have no problem telling people how they're made except for it's you know inherently you know, you y you if you can weld, you know, and if you can, you know, purchase stuff with a credit card off McMaster Car, you can buy everything. Everything that you need for it, you can buy on McMaster Car's website. Uh other than I just yeah, I just figured it was it was some crazy uh you know legal liability to to put those instructions in the book as well. Well and I mean, you know, there's th it's already a hundred thousand words as it is. And like, you know, I you know, I'm I I don't what I do explain, I don't pull any punches on it.
+
+[9:28] So like if I was gonna go into like a full detail, there'd be, you know, I'd have to tell you like, you know, what to look out for when you're welding, like, you know, what wattages to look out for, like, you know, issues I have with different kind of cartridge heaters. Um, because it's it's basically just a high temperature cartridge heater and I've tried, you know, many dozens of different wattages and and lengths and and diameters and I've come up with the one that, you know, can uh run f you know, without blowing itself out in the open air, because every every any time you use a heater that's powerful enough uh to burn itself out and try to control it, the control invariably fails with all the thermal cycling and when the control fails, it always over f it always fails in the direction of getting too hot and then the thing burns out. Uh sometimes spectacularly. So, you know. Yeah, so you know, I I you know I can give all this stuff, but then also there's like, you know, there's the tr you know, you gotta insulate it right when you're wrapping it, you gotta weld it right, grind it down.
+
+[10:29] I mean it's not none of it's rocket science, you know. Like I c you know, back when Pipe. It's a lot more work than you kinda mentioned in the book. So we can reset that, I guess. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[10:38] I mean, look, uh uh again, if someone wants it, you know, like next week, someone if you, you know, put put the question in or whatever, I can I can give you the part numbers. Uh and in fact, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be making a batch. You know, someone stole our welder, and as soon as we get uh a welder back in in uh in the shop, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to make a batch for this year's red hot poker. Maybe I'll take some pictures of the process. That'd be cool.
+
+[11:01] So I had some actual questions though, uh just uh on a couple of things. Um I was gonna ask uh, you know, similarly about the kitesan. I do keep kosher, so you know you you mentioned the fungal in the book, but I heard your answers, it seems like there's really not a good um alternative at this point. What I was just thinking right now is that I would reach out to maybe some kosher winemakers and see what they use for wine finding agents. Yeah.
+
+[11:22] Um and uh, you know, come up with that. Um the other thing for the uh the clarified grapefruit juice. I bought a uh home carbonation rig, I'm gonna be making the gin and juice this weekend. How long I know you mentioned with the lime juice, it doesn't really keep very well. You you find the same thing with the grapefruit juice as well.
+
+[11:38] No, I would just say it's like the maximum storage time. Yeah, clarified grapefruit juice it keeps fairly well. So, you know, I think you you know, a couple of days is not gonna be a problem. Okay. Are you gonna do agar or freeze thaw?
+
+[11:52] Uh agar. Okay. I mean, but agar f uh what I meant is quick quick agar or freeze thaw. Well, which would you recommend? I could do either one.
+
+[12:00] I if you're gonna use it right away, you can do quick, but Nastasia hates doing the quick, right? You she hates it. It's like one of the things that she refuses to ever do again. Uh you know, if you're practice with quick, the good thing about quick is it's quick. I typically reserve quick clarification for things like lime and lemon that can't sit around, or if I only need a small amount.
+
+[12:20] Like if you only need like you know, half a liter, then you know, quick is fine. And you because if you lose 250 mils, it's not a big deal. If you're trying to make like two gallons of it, you know what I mean? Then quick agar becomes a a bit of a little bit of a pain in the butt and then I would move to freeze thaw with freeze thaw you're gonna have uh a high you know probably a higher yield less overall work time even though it takes longer to do uh and um there was another oh yes and the the quick one will eventually well the next day will throw a cloud off so usually if you're gonna do quick do it the day you're gonna use it you know what I mean you can you can resettle out the cloud but you know the there will be some agar that's left in the uh in the in the liquid that'll then kind of stick together uh overnight to form kind of cloudiness so you know I would say that but but remember the freeze thaw takes a couple of days so you have to start you know soon. Okay yeah no because uh doing for a dinner on Sunday so actually now the sounds like a freeze thaw is a better method.
+
+[13:21] Yeah um if I can ask you one more question it's uh um the you had a little sidebar in there about eutectic freezing and try as I might understand you know the the principal behind it actually asked uh my brother who's uh a chemical engineer and brother in law so and uh we weren't really sure what was going on there. I don't know if you can take a minute to kind of expound on that. Sure. So um the there's a a concentration for uh you know all salts in in water where um they it kind of thaws like a um like a unitary substance like water, right? And so it's the point at which uh you know the point at which that happens and the temperature at which that happens.
+
+[14:07] So typically when you're using a eutectictic freezing plate, they'll choose the temperature of the plate based on the um the salts that they put into it, right? And then it freezes and thaws at that concentration. So if you if you have uh if you have less salt let's say of whatever salt you're gonna choose in your liquid what'll happen is you'll start crystallizing pure water out right you'll then kind of reach the uh a eutectic solution and then it'll start freezing as a as a solid there. I think that's how it'll work and then it'll thaw out whereas if you start with the percentage uh you know with that kind of like you know magic percentage of um of salts in it uh it will stay liquid and then freeze at its at whatever its temper eutectic freezing temperature is and then s freeze solid and then as it thaws it will do the same at the same temperature so there won't be any temperature drift during the uh during the freezing and thawing cycle. So it'll see so it's all about the uniformity of the uh of the solution kind of as it's freezing into into one thing.
+
+[15:11] Right. So you what you don't want to have happen is you don't want to uh you don't you don't want so normally if you just use salt and ice right eventually as the salt st as the as it starts diluting down the temperature's gonna start rising right or conversely sometimes you know if the brine concentration increases because more salt dissolves into it your temperature can drop. So by using this kind of like you know these magic ratios you can have it act like a a pure substance tip typically the the specific uh the uh heat of fusion is not as great, I think. I'd have to look back, it's not as great as it would be in a pure water solution, but you still have that uh kind of constant temperature um and this is used commercially all the time for things like trucks, where they'll throw like large plates into a huge, you know, walk-in freezer for several days, then throw the plates into a truck or into like a you know an ice cream cooler case, and then they'll go around and they can keep it uh you know at perfect dipping temperature or storage temperature, whatever they want. I gotcha, I gotcha.
+
+[16:16] Okay, that makes a lot more sense. All right, all right, thank thanks a lot, Dave. All right, thank you. Hey Jack, I know we only have five minutes. You want you want to do the you want to whoever's paid for this episode, you want them to put it up real quick?
+
+[16:28] What's that? Oh, we got we we can keep going. We'll put that in later. Oh, I like that. We it's like to the live listeners to be like, nah, whatever, we'll put it in later.
+
+[16:34] Yeah. Uh by the way, Stas, you want to announce what's gonna happen with Amazon later? No, I don't really want to. Okay, because someone called in uh um Quinn DuPont. I was supposed to talk about uh searing techniques with the Sears on the radio show.
+
+[16:50] So uh searing techniques with the Searsol. Uh uh, I think you know, uh in reading the your views of people that are using it, I think the prime thing if you think that it's too slow, right? You want to get the Sears all much closer to the surface of uh what you're doing. Uh the exceptions are things things that are dry, like breads go from like kind of you know, uh totally blonde and they can start burning very quickly because there's not a lot of liquids to moderate it. So those things you have to be a little more careful with.
+
+[17:20] Uh and so typically breads I'll hold what you say this is. What was that, like two and a half inches, three inches? Mm-hmm. But about that far away. And and I'll move it around.
+
+[17:29] And you can actually, I mean, I I shouldn't say this. You can actually like hold things and like manipulate it. It's you know, it's very you don't have to kind of worry about it. But things like uh steaks, uh cheese also usually okay. I'll give you this because I'm gonna have to go to another another question.
+
+[17:44] Here's what I usually do. I get it down fairly close and I do tiny little circles, and I wait for uh to to start seeing sizzle or bubble or or movement, and then I'll move away from it and I'll start it in another zone. And by the time I start it getting bubbling in a second zone, I could start moving it back and forth like a welder, kind of creating a uh a puddle, not like a puddle, but like kind of creating a zone of searing, just like a welder can when you're moving a MIG welder or an arc welder back and forth by you know, melting the rod in and forming a puddle. And by doing that, you can keep a re relatively large area in kind of fine searing fashion. So uh, and it's a lot more effective than like hitting and stopping and you know, move you know, moving too quickly, for instance.
+
+[18:28] So uh the general rule of thumb is is that for something the size of like a rib steak, you're gonna want to do about a minute, uh minute, minute and a half per side. Uh cheese, typically I'll go really close till it starts bubbling, I'll pull back a little bit, zip around, and let's say I'm doing like five burgers, I'll hit one really hard go, hit the next one, and then like start moving around until I'm moving around, and I'm constantly hitting each one for you know, a couple of seconds until they're until they're all cooked. You're gonna get a better crust in terms of like tack, tack, tack, tack crust uh on something uh by hitting it a couple times and letting it rest a little bit in between. So if you're doing like three or four steaks, it's a good idea to kind of not do one all the way to the finish and then do the next one all the way to finish, but keep them all little, you know, you know, don't have them to stop entirely, but hit and then come back to you know the same one at at least uh twice. I find that's the kind of gonna give the best crush.
+
+[19:25] Yes? Mm-hmm. Yeah, all right. And I can give more, you know, uh more what's it called, if anyone uh wants to know. Okay.
+
+[19:32] Uh Philippe Lament wrote in, uh, your book is finally coming out, so stoked. Thank you. Uh I have a sticky question for you. I'm trying to make an alcoholic ice cream for a Paco Jet. I want to retain the raw alcohol taste.
+
+[19:43] I've been using cognac and calvados. Uh do you like Calvados or Calvados? How do you pronounce it? So I was like, I don't care, I don't drink that stuff. Do you like that stuff?
+
+[19:51] I don't think I've ever had it. No? You know the apple brandy? Oh, yeah. No.
+
+[19:56] Okay. Yeah. She's like, they don't make it in Italy or Switzerland, so I don't drink. I don't drink it. I don't drink it.
+
+[20:02] Uh so anyway. Um, do you have any suggestions on ratios or stabilizers I can use to have a nice consistency? Thank you. Uh okay. So what I would do is uh I would do what I always do when I want something to not I mean, obviously for those of you that like, I don't know, you're zoning out because I'm speaking too quickly or whatever.
+
+[20:20] The problem here is obviously you add too much liquor, you affect the texture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh you don't wanna like one solution, which is the wrong solution, and you can't do it in a pocket anyway, so it doesn't matter. I guess you could, is to freeze it much colder than you normally would in a pocket, but that's not gonna work because when alcoholic stuff melts out, it typically melts out in a weird way. So unlike typical sorbets, they have relatively nice melt profile over alcohol sorbets are like they just blast out on you, you know what I mean?
+
+[20:45] You've seen that happen, right? It's not not nice. So what I would do is cheat in the same way that I always cheat, and I would make a gel-an fluid gel with uh the alcohol. So I would make a portion of the sorbet base kind of normal and then create uh a gel-an fluid gel uh that and you want, I would say total sorbet. Total sorbet.
+
+[21:04] I would go uh in the ratio of like no more than half a percent. And that will never melt. So you can spin it and it'll stay like the texture of I mean it won't melt. It'll stay like the texture of uh just melted sorbet on the surface of the sorbet, but it'll hold its shape. It so in other words, like whatever it is, whatever your liquid base is in it, don't forget forget the salads because my recipe doesn't work on that.
+
+[21:29] But whatever the liquid base is, half a percent. Remember, you're gonna have to boil that and then you can temper stuff into it, let it chill into and then blend it into a fluid gel and then spin it in the Paco Jet, and that should work. And it'll be super creamy. You might have to up your flavors a little bit because half a percent of Calco Gel F, which is low acyl gel-an, is quite a lot and uh will mask the flavor somewhat, but it'll be smooth and creamy. Right?
+
+[21:52] Stas, you hate do you like things that are smooth and creamy? Yeah, but you don't like when people describe them as smooth and creamy. Come on, dude. All right, right, right. Uh okay, got a story in from uh Ross and Aruba.
+
+[22:05] Uh, and I wanted us to read this uh on the air. And I might have to read it quickly because you know I'm late. Um thanks for your help. I look forward to getting the two Sears all. I hope you better already have them.
+
+[22:16] He does. All right, good. Uh as a home cook, I've been coming, and by the way, I like home cook. Cook, cook, a lot of honor in cooking, cook, cook a cook. Uh, as a home cook, I've become enthralled with sous vide cooking uh in an ANOVA circulator, low temperature, I'm sure.
+
+[22:29] I'm amazed with its ease and convenience. Uh at last, chicken steaks and other meats cooked to desired level of doneness. Uh yes, that is a word, by the way. Uh, without fail. Uh, we've become so attached to sous vide cooking that we took the Anova circulator on a budget vacation to Aruba.
+
+[22:43] Uh bought a five dollar plastic bucket at a local grocery store, and we were cooking. We took zippies with us because we weren't sure about their availability. By the way, were they available? Could you get the Ziplocks? Uh and remember, people, don't buy the cheap Ziplocks because remember, Stas, we had that problem with the cheap Ziplocks?
+
+[22:58] Do not buy the freezer ones, the freezer ones. We were doing an event the other day and they were leaking and how put your angry face on. Alright. Anyway. Because we weren't sure about their availability.
+
+[23:09] We had steaks that uh could complete uh that could compete with those available at Aruba's high-end restaurants. Before we went to the beach or bar, we'd pop the meat in the uh in the bags and they'd be ready when we got back to our apartment. More importantly, if we want to do some more snorkeling or have another drink, we could. We didn't have to rush back and tend to the cooking, which is a good point. If you're snorkeling, by the way, I don't know about the safety of snorkeling and drinking.
+
+[23:31] I'm sure you're drinking responsibly while you're snorkeling. Uh but yes, uh definitely, you know, if you're under the water and that you know, looking around at all the awesome sea life and you lose track of time. A normal steak would be ruined, right? Right, yeah. Uh anyway, we didn't have to rush back to tend to the cooking.
+
+[23:49] The food stayed fine and didn't overcook in the circulator. Now we want to try the Sears all at home, not on vacation. Airline security folks may have qualms about such a device. Thank you for your help. Uh regards uh Ross.
+
+[24:00] Now listen, Ross, I bring the Sears all with me all the time, all the time on the airport. And occasionally people are like, What is this? And I go, um it is a cooking device. And they're like, Oh. But I unscrew it from the torch and I bring the torch separately, and they look they look at it a couple times look at it.
+
+[24:19] I also bring red hot pokers with me. I always bring those things, you can bring them in checked luggage, obviously, uh, but then they're gonna search your luggage. Uh uh, but I bring them in my carry-on because I never bring checked luggage to demos because I've had them not show up, and then you don't have a demo. So I plan demos around being able to bring stuff in my carry-on. Uh, so you can do it.
+
+[24:37] But uh good luck with the home use of the series. I'll let's know how it works. And then uh, how many minutes we got, Jack? Uh under five. Under five.
+
+[24:45] Okay. Uh all right, let me let me let me hit this quick. We what is next week Thanksgiving or the week after? Uh week after. Okay.
+
+[24:54] So Antoine, I'm gonna get your brining question on birds because I'm assuming that's for uh that's for Thanksgiving. I'm gonna get that next week, as well as Lee Lee Crawford's uh explanation of uh, by the way, wrote in about uh Julia Child and went back and watched her old black and white uh shows. That was from Jean. Uh G N or G-E-A-N-N-E. How do you say that?
+
+[25:15] GN? Gene? Anyways, from Jean, not from Lee. Anyway, I went back and watched that episode, which is one of the reasons I'm a little bit late because I'll do anything. Holy crap.
+
+[25:24] I you know, you forget what a badass Julia Child is. You know what I mean? You forget and then you watch it. She might have been a little drunk. I'm not sure.
+
+[25:31] I mean, I know that's like whatever, that's the uh stereo, you know, that's her like, you know, that's her shtick. Like she did that way before Hoda and Kathy Lee. You know what I'm saying? Uh or I know, maybe the same time as Dean Martin did the kind of like, you know, kind of a little bit tipsy thing. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:44] Uh, but such just is such an intense badass. Uh, I'm gonna go back and now now you've ruined me. I have to go back and uh and you know, read all those. So we'll get that. I'm gonna hit really quickly.
+
+[25:55] Um Daniel from San Jose wrote about it rose petals. Uh I've been making candy rose petals the classic way by coating the rose petals in a thin layer of egg white, dipping them in sugar, and then leaving them out to dry. My problem I was be able to finally chop them uh for use in a plated dessert, but the egg white sugar uh always flakes apart from the dried rose petal when it's chopped. Is there any way I can modify the prep so I can drop the candy rose petals without them flaking apart? Thanks.
+
+[26:18] You know, I've never tried it, but uh uh, you know, the problem is you don't want to heat them. That's the issue. Uh, you know, Johnny Zini uh used to do a thing where he would dip them in simple sh uh syrup and lay them out on a paper towel to drive after he dusted them with sugar. But I think the key is maybe let them half uh the egg white is gonna be a problem because the proteins are gonna are gonna, you know, kind of crunch up on you. But I think if you let them go demise, as they say, you know, like half dry and then chop them and then let them finish out after after that, if you can stop them from the problem is you they're gonna gum up.
+
+[26:47] So you have to sit there and individually chop each rose petal like into a you know you can't even do a shift knot because you can't roll it, it'll stick, right? I don't know. It's a problematic. But uh, I don't know. I I tried to think of a surefire whatever.
+
+[27:00] Maybe try Johnny's uh way instead of with the egg white, maybe it'll work. Now, um, as for other things I'm not gonna get to in time. Let me see. Uh Uriel and your milk powder. Uh he's talking about milk powder and my art for browning and meats.
+
+[27:12] I'm gonna cut that later. And also Alex's bear. We didn't like our bear, but I'm gonna research more about bear. If you have a young bear, then it's uh it's you're gonna be better off. Um but I'll I'll I'll look more into cooking bear.
+
+[27:24] The one time that we cooked bear, did you even taste it, Sas? No, I don't think I tasted the bear. It is it is terrible. Uh but uh again, uh young young one is young bear is uh good. Also, uh David with your lemon sorbet question, I'll catch you next time because it is uh it's not a problem.
+
+[27:40] I I can do it. And and I just have too many questions to answer, but I'm gonna I I I missed Ken uh I miss Ken Ken Ingber's uh uh would you call it a diatribe? All right, I think he would I think he would fairly call it a diatribe. So I'll read that really quickly and then we can discuss it later if people have uh more questions on it. Okay.
+
+[28:00] Um Dave and the hammer by extension, if not conspiracy, have been champions of low temperature and sous vide cooking. When you started this campaign on the radio, this was still pretty exotic, requiring either relatively expensive equipment or internet hacks that only a small cadre of enthusiasts would employ. That has changed. Not only because of the promotion of low temp and sous vide by uh us and others, but because Sous vide Supreme was successful in the mainstream, and the cost of an immersion circulator has come way down. I back the Nomi Coup, which works well.
+
+[28:26] I assume Ben uh this is harsh. I assume BAM's Venture, BAM is Weepop Soupy Pot, uh who, you know, one of the founders of uh I assume BAM's Venture will not survive because since they've started, uh poly science has come down in price, and both the Sansera and Anova are better rated and available for $200. By the way, there's a new NomiCoup coming out, so you know I I don't I don't, you know, I don't what's it called? I don't play favorites in the in the circulator market because I'm friends with a lot of these folks. But don't count anyone out yet.
+
+[28:52] Uh and he goes, bad news for BAM, but great news for consumers. Ouch. Uh an emergent circulator is now uh a little pricey for an impulse purchase, but clearly inexpensive enough to be a regular consumer product. But the information and education provided by cooking issues and the like are not as available as the products are. Take me as an example.
+
+[29:08] I am not a typical consumer. I listen uh to cooking issues. I have books by McGee and Keller on my night table. On your night table, I'm gonna tell tell Harold about that. Uh and do plenty of research.
+
+[29:17] Hell, I have even read a Hasset plan. Yet with all my attention and devotion, I understand the safety issues that are uh I understand the safety issues that are so widely mentioned very poorly. For various reasons, mostly in abundance of caution. I've almost invariably prepared low temperature meals by reaching pasteurization, and I use the quick chill method for storing. But even I don't really understand this.
+
+[29:34] If I am researching pasteurization temp and time, how could this be a big danger I keep hearing about? With conventional cooking, you leave food in pots while you eat, you leave it out on the counter to cool, and you put it in the fridge, all the while in the danger zone. If the contents of the low temp bag are pasteurized, why isn't that close to canning? Uh it's not close to canning. It's not, because you're not killing the spores.
+
+[29:51] But anyway, why isn't that close to canning giving me a much wide rider margin of safety than ordinary prepared food? It is, but you know, I'm not gonna have time to discuss it, but it is. Anyway, if the bag's contents are pasteurized, I would find it plausible to conclude that it would be perfectly safe to throw it in the fridge without a quick chill ice bath. This was asked by someone on the air quite a while ago. Dave, in my opinion, did not catch the drift of the question and did not answer it.
+
+[30:11] This came uh to a head with considering fish. Chef's deaths uh promoted a combination of salting in the danger zone and cooking for salmon that was declared safe. Uh and Chris Young did a challenge test on it, which is how they figured out it was safe. Fine for that specific chef step preparation, but you see plenty of examples of cooking fish well below 130 degrees Fahrenheit. Even the amusing hot water tap method.
+
+[30:30] I don't want to cook all fish to pasteurization all the time. In fact, I never do, me personally, Dave. Uh and I want to experiment with textures and the like. How safe is that? What about killing fish parasites?
+
+[30:39] Um, look it. And he says, it seems to me the availability of low-temp equipment is far outpacing consumer understanding and capability. If there's really a serious danger associated with low temperature and sous V cooking, as I've heard repeatedly, then I would say there'd be a whole lot of illness arising from this technique at home in the coming years. Best regards, Ken. Look, this is complicated, and part of the fact is that we're never going to come out and tell we I like no one is gonna come out and say with a relatively new thing, something that, you know, might get someone sick, even though we all know that people get sick from cooking all of the time.
+
+[31:10] So next time when I get back, I'm gonna just have Stas and I, maybe if she wants to, she won't, she doesn't want to uh we'll have just have like a discussion. Maybe we can get someone on. I don't know, let's see if we can get someone on. And we'll just hash out the food safety stuff, my opinion as a cook versus uh someone who's more, you know, into food safety, their opinion as a as a food safety expert. Because we're coming from different points of view.
+
+[31:32] We have different acceptable levels of risk, and the acceptable level of risk, typically in pasteurization levels, is one of supermarket morons walking home with a product uh in an abused situation, not as someone who's like cooking for their own uh use at home who has more control over their raw ingredients. So I think like there are there are different standards of risk, different standards of what we think the inputs into the cooking are, and those are leading to a lot of confusion. But maybe we can get someone on next week and hash it out. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[31:58] Yeah? Uh nice. All right, we'll try and get them, and that'll be next week on the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[32:18] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. This is Mitchell Davis, host of Taste Matters. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you'd like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:35] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live and relatively on time. Robert's Pizzeria and the Heritage Radio Network in Bush. We have a barackland. So proud of you, man.
+
+[0:47] It's actually 12 on the dot when you walked in. Right? I mean, I know we're supposed to start at 12, which means, you know, I should be here like, you know, like 11 55 and stuff. But come on. Baby steps, baby.
+
+[0:55] Baby steps. We just made the table who's sitting by the window. Get up and move. They weren't ready to leave. They heard the scream and they're going to be.
+
+[1:01] They heard the scream and they're like, you know, I think they're practicing some sort of musical vibe out there anyway because I saw some air air strummage. Well, there's some air strummage. And so maybe I was like harshing their mellow when they were talking about whatever kind of folk hipster rock they were working on over there. Not that I'm against folk uh hipster rock. White, are you a fan of folk uh folk hip hipster rock?
+
+[1:19] Totally, yeah. Yeah, see? Well, you know, gotta be around here. So totally. Yeah.
+
+[1:23] It's just I mean, look, come on. That's it. It's a good genre, it's a good genre. But listen, we have Douglas Baldwin, mathematics professor and the man behind the uh sous vide kill curves in uh modernist cuisine. Uh is gonna call in uh what do you say, around noon fifteen, says?
+
+[1:37] Stas, you still have your coat on. I know it's freezing here, but it's not had h it's not like cold in the studio. Aren't you gonna start sweating? Maybe. Don't you sweat?
+
+[1:45] Do you not sweat? Do you have not have pullers? Dave, don't you remember the days where Stas had like five space heaters pointed at her in her seat in the studio? That's true. But it's not like that here, is it?
+
+[1:55] Never warm enough. But you know, I feel that like, you know, we've we've overcome that and that it's, you know, fine in the studio here. There's not a problem. Anyways. All right.
+
+[1:59] So listen, stay tuned for the uh I mean in other words, like don't if you happen to be listening live, don't uh, you know, tune out and be like nothing interesting is gonna happen on this because we're gonna have like discussions of food safety. This is all relating, by the way, to King uh Ken uh why do I say Kang? Ken Ingber's qu uh kind of not a question really, but kind of a statement that there's a lot of conflicting and not really kind of useful information out there about uh safety and low temperature cooking. And you know, I have my theories, but why don't we have a discussion with Douglas Baldwin, right? Yep.
+
+[2:29] Right. Okay. Uh all right, I'll hit right in with some questions before that happens. Antoine wrote in uh a couple of weeks ago. Who knows?
+
+[2:35] I can't keep track because we're so far behind on questions about brining. Hello, and Nastasia, Dave, and Jack and why I'm gonna throw white into that. I'm not gonna throw them under the bus, I'm gonna throw them into the mix. Uh it's Antoine from Boca Raton, Florida. Uh, craft beer bartender, turn cold press juice bartender.
+
+[2:51] Remember that discussion? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cold pressed juice.
+
+[2:55] All right. Uh by the way, I've never used a Norwalk. I'm not going to get into it. Stop. Anyway, I just wanted uh to let you know that I went to Booker and Dacks about a month ago, and it blew my mind.
+
+[3:03] Nice. Uh I also managed to get a table at WD 50 while it was there that night and came up to our table, and I was starstruck and incapable of speaking with him. Well, you know, if you have anything you want me to relay to him, you know, just tell me I'll I'll relay it next time I see him. Uh just wanted to let you know I greatly enjoy myself and I was glad I got to go to both of those establishments. You know, WD is coming into its last month.
+
+[3:22] I'm going on the 30th. Uh is that the last day? We're going on the last day. Yeah. I don't know.
+
+[3:27] I don't know when the last day. Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be a blast. Well, though, you know, the cool thing is that Wiley's book is gonna be a WD 50 book. We have to eat that tonight, right? Well, yeah, but you know, most people here aren't gonna really care where like we have to go to dinner tonight.
+
+[3:41] I mean, it's okay, not germane. Like, I apologize, people, you were not invited to the same thing. It's true. We never go up on tangents. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:48] Well, there's tangents, Nastasia, and then there's tangents that relate to things that other people can they can't relate to where we're gonna go to dinner. That doesn't make any sense. Anyways. Uh okay, my question is I'm going to deep fry my Thanksgiving turkey. You ever see uh the uh public service messages where people ignite their houses when they're deep frying the turkey?
+
+[4:05] No. Yeah, so what happens is that you you uh you heat up a giant thing of oil, right? On this giant fryer, and then you stick something that has too much water into it, the water instantly boils, volatilizes a uh uh a bunch of uh oil droplets, right? So you put your turkey with too much water on it in there, the oil has been overheated, instantly it goes pfft and vol like water boils out, sprays a fine mist of oil droplets in the air that are very close to the ignition temperature of the oil, and then a flame licking up over the sides ignites one or two of those and you have a giant turkey fireball. Which, you know, not recommended procedure.
+
+[4:42] But Antoine's not gonna do that. Anyway, uh I wanted to brine uh my turkey with a beer brine beforehand. However, the recipe calls for submerging it in a brine bath. Instead, I wish to inject it as I've been told it is a superior form of brining. My conundrum is that I don't know what ratio of salt I should include or how I should alter it.
+
+[5:01] I've attached the recipe. I'm probably going to be doing an eleven point five to thirteen point five kilogram turkey. And by the way, turkeys, being an American bird, should only be roasted in pounds, my friend. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
+
+[5:13] You know, you do whatever you want. I'm normally thinking kilograms too, but right, turkeys, turkeys are never spec'd in kilograms because they're not European, right? Right. Yeah. I don't know.
+
+[5:21] What do you think, Jack? Yeah, I'm gonna have to support you on that one. Yeah, yeah. Uh no offense to the European listeners. Or not European, worldwide listeners.
+
+[5:29] Uh no offense to everyone other than us. But would that would the same go for like a European animal, I guess? Or no, I'm just saying it's like it's like we dress for the weather here in the US, even though I cook in Celsius, like with low temperature stuff, when I'm doing oven work or deep frying work, I cook in Fahrenheit and I dress based on Fahrenheit. I don't like, hey, it's 20 Celsius outside. What does that mean?
+
+[5:54] It means nothing. You know what I mean? It means nothing to me. Whereas, you know, give me the exact temperature in Fahrenheit. I'm like, oh, I get it.
+
+[5:59] I got it. You know what I mean? So I don't know. It's just something when something is very American, like a turkey, I like, you know, I revert to my kind of old school, brought up American ways. That's all.
+
+[6:10] Fair. Yeah. Um, I would also like to hear your recommendations for any other brine solutions you liked or thought were noteworthy. Uh happy Thanksgiving, shalom, adios, and keep on rocking in the free world. Uh okay, well, the re I unfortunately I accidentally didn't paste and copy the paste the recipe in, but I'll tell you roughly how I do it.
+
+[6:29] So when you're soaking uh a bird, or if you're uh dry salting it, right, you typically make uh a concentrated salt solution, and some of it's absorbed in and most of it's not, and you throw the rest away. When you're doing a brine pump, right, and by the way, that's the only way the flavor of the things like beer is gonna really permeate, because otherwise it would just be on the surface of the bird anyway. Um I had an interesting phenomenon the other day, I was roasting a chicken. You know how when you roast a chicken, you stuff the cavity with herbs and like maybe like a citrus, like a couple lemon wedges or lime wedge, and the whole damn thing, like taste of the herb and the lime wedge. Like, why is that?
+
+[7:05] Well, when you're brining with it, that's not the case. But when you cook it, somehow it like you know what I'm talking about though? Mm-hmm. And uh then my wife asked me, she's like, How does that work? I was like, you know what?
+
+[7:14] I have no idea. I have no idea why that works. Weird, right? Anyway. So, anyways, uh, and again, I refer you uh for brining to the Genuine Ideas blog, which is uh done by uh what's his name, Greg Blonder, and he's done to the best of my uh sleuthing the kind of greatest body of work on the specifics of brine penetration.
+
+[7:36] Uh it's kind of a gross word. Um anyway, when you're injecting, it's a totally different game. When you're injecting, what you do is this you calculate what percentage salt you want in the finished thing, right? Then you calculate what percent well, first actually, you calculate what percentage you're gonna pump to. So, like, for instance, like you could pump anywhere between like, you know, five and fifteen percent of the weight of an item with uh a brine, right?
+
+[8:06] So you choose kind of what how much like liquid you're gonna jack into this sucker, right? And so a lot of people like Kenji Alt Lopez doesn't like brining because he figures that you're injecting kind of non-flavorful things and blah blah blah, and it's gonna leak out anyway. But what you know, if you're gonna inject a flavorful thing, there you go. So usually um, you know, it doesn't make too much sense to pump it over the capac over the increased water holding capacity of the thing, anyway. So you know you're not pumping it because you want to sell a higher weight product, you're pumping for flavors, so you might want to be on the lower end of the pumping spectrum, somewhere like five, eight percent of the weight, maybe ten, up to maybe up to ten.
+
+[8:40] I wouldn't go over ten, anyways. So then you calculate what like what what percentage of the of the animal bird in this case weight you're gonna inject into it. Then you calculate what you want the finished salt content of the uh bird to be. So let's say you want uh like a percent salt in the thing. Well, then you calculate the weight of the liquid you're going to inject into it plus the weight of the bird, subtract out some sort of like idea for the weight of the bones, because you're not going to count that stuff, add that much salt to the weight of liquid that you're going to put in uh and make that liquid whatever you want, uh if you're gonna add sugar or whatnot, and then inject it, try to inject it all around the bird to get it, you know, roughly everywhere, then let it sit for a while to equilibrate, and there you have it, right?
+
+[9:23] Uh and so you know that's not going to be exact, but that's really how you figure it out. So you have to figure out how much salt you want in there, but uh uh I'm trying to think. I I would guess it's somewhere I wouldn't go over a percent, right? Maybe like I wouldn't go over a percent, maybe like a percent. I don't know.
+
+[9:40] That's a what do you think, Sas? Like a percent? I don't know, somewhere around there. But look up, uh look around the internet for like kind of what what percentage you want, but I I think it's about right. Oh, and do a test beforehand.
+
+[9:49] Like whenever you're gonna do something like this, go buy a fresh turkey breast, right? And a leg. And then uh just in follow what I've just said, inject them with the relative percentages, let them sit for you know overnight in zippies or you know, for a couple of hours in zippies in your fridge, cook them out and taste them. That's the best way. What do you think, Sas?
+
+[10:09] Yeah. That's what I would that's literally what I would do. I think everyone makes a mistake. They they don't do a test for us, especially when it's so easy. Thanksgiving bird, very important.
+
+[10:15] You don't want to have it like you don't want to f it up. You know what I'm saying? By the way, you think it's okay to say F instead of the F word. Yeah. So it's like an exact replacement, so you might as well be saying the F word, no?
+
+[10:26] I feel like the F word's not that bad. Hey Dave, I do have Doug on the line. He's just hanging out. Alright, cool. Let's uh let's get him on the air.
+
+[10:32] We'll start, we'll start talking about this stuff now. Still there, Doug? Yeah. What? Hey, Dr.
+
+[10:38] Baldwin, Dave Arnold here. How are you doing? Hello. I'm doing very well. Good.
+
+[10:42] Long time no see. I think the last time I saw you was when uh Nils and I did that uh thing in in Denver many, many moons ago. Yeah. That's been quite a few years. It's a lot of fun.
+
+[10:54] Yeah, yeah. So uh so what do you what do you have going on? Anything you want to pitch or plug before we get into the nitty-gritty here? Yeah, sure. On uh Black Friday, uh a new Sueweed course is coming out on Chef that's uh I worked with uh everyone on, so that's gonna be exciting.
+
+[11:09] Nice. Which one's Black Black oh the one right after Thanksgiving. See, I like you. You know why? Because like I'm dealing with people that are like, you don't want to hit the Black Friday, you want to hit the Cyber Monday.
+
+[11:18] Cyber Monday's a load of horse crap. It's just an opportunity for people to look first of all, Black Friday is just an opportunity for people to overspend for no apparent reason, just because like they feel that Christmas season is open and they can spend a lot of money now. But like why do we need to add other like full of crap opportunities? Just stick with the original, stick with the Black Friday. You know, it's your nod to American consumerism and just let it go with that.
+
+[11:40] You know? Yeah. Makes sense to me, but yeah, me too. You know, I'm hoping another reason is that you know we have this next batch of Sears all's coming in, and we're hoping to get them in the stores by uh in stores in Amazon by Black Friday. But you know, there's always a question because uh, you know, it it might get held up at customs because we're riding right on that line, in which case we might have to wait till Cyber Monday.
+
+[12:02] And if that happens, Nastasia and I will pretend that that was our intent. Right, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, nice.
+
+[12:09] Uh and so the why don't you describe the the course really quickly? Oh, so uh it's uh they already came out with a sort of uh beginning course that covers how would you do it without a circulator. And then the uh new course beyond uh the basics assumes you already have a water bath to be screaming a circulator or whatever, and then I cover oh theory about how meat changes with temperature, how what part of the body on the animal relates to how it cooks. I have we have a really cool map that's uh log time and different temperatures and has little islands for tough cuts and tender cuts, things like this. It's uh I think people will really like it.
+
+[12:55] And it has a nice food safety section uh as well. Nice. Well, I appreciate a nice food safety section. So I'm gonna give you the quick background for those of you that I don't know, like haven't listened to this before, don't know the players involved. Uh about eight billion years ago, which means I think like two thousand and eight or two thousand and seven or something like this, um there were some questions posted on e-gullet uh about um many questions about Suviet in general.
+
+[13:24] And at that time there was uh, you know, I think you, Douglas, were already working with it when you were a PhD student, right? Is that true? Or or when you were postdoctors, right? Uh and you were working on it, and then on e-gullet, uh there is uh Nathan M who was kind of like in these, you know, reading the Eagle to Post and posting to it. I mean, not the the average person at that point didn't know that Nathan Meervold was a guy who was interested in cooking and also was gonna release monitor squeezing.
+
+[13:50] It was kind of unknown at that time. He was c you know, he was known to people, but not kind of the way he is now. Uh in the food world that is. Um people start posting questions, and then somehow you two got together, and he I don't know, he somehow convinced you to actually do the math to figure this stuff out. Is that is that about right?
+
+[14:10] 'Cause you're a mathematics professor, which people might also not know. Yeah. So I I kept reading all these things about you know uh different recipes, and I thought that doesn't sound very safe. So I went ahead and did the calculations of the well, how long would it take to pasteurize while it eats up? And well, I'm a researcher, so I just went research y all over sous vide cooking.
+
+[14:34] Wrote up my web guide and then came out with my sous-view for the home cook cookbook. Now I've joined Chef Step, so it's uh it's been an interesting trajectory. Nice. All right. So we now I know you and I personally have had this kind of argument before, and so we're gonna have it now.
+
+[14:50] Not an argument, but discussion. Uh and so what what prompted this is that um one of our listeners uh for a long time, uh Ken Ken Ingber, wrote in and said, Hey, listen, there's a lot of conflicting stuff out of the uh you know coming out there about what's safe and what isn't, and is this technique dangerous, is it not, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, now and I think there is a lot of uh kind of horse crap around it. My opinion, why is because people aren't actually s like talking about the same things. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:25] Like people aren't actually dis like they're talking, and and I'll explain to the listener, and then you tell me whether you agree, and then we'll talk about like what we think about this. So uh there's first of all, there's safe, and then there's safe. So uh you know, the the there's most cooking is relatively unsafe, like as a process, unless it's very well controlled, right? There's lots of potentials for bad things to happen, for bad things to get on your food, and for them to to get into your body and to and to cause illness. This is why people get food poisoning all the time, why they get sick.
+
+[15:59] Yep. As a whole, right, low temperature cooking, vastly, because it's more controlled, vastly more safe than uh uncontrolled home regular cooking. Vastly. You know what I'm saying? Uh uh and without much more predictable.
+
+[16:21] Exactly. Exactly. Right. So someone, you know, does something wrong when they're cooking at home, then you know they're much more likely to make a mistake that's going to get them sick not by using like traditional cooking methods. Caveat here.
+
+[16:38] Now, so but when you're cooking in a restaurant, professionally, uh, in fact, we also do unsafe things all the time, but there are food codes that try to prevent us from doing those unsafe things. And if we are going to do those unsafe things, it try to get us to tell our customers that we're doing something unsafe, like not cooking their hamburgers all the way. Right? Yeah. Which is why we are theoretically obligated to do things like put thermometers into the center of things to test whether or not the temperature has gotten up to a uh a high enough point that bacteria are killed so quickly that there's no question that uh this product is going to be safe.
+
+[17:15] And in general, that's why uh quick serve and fast food restaurants hammer the hell out of your food, and in general, why their food can't possibly be as good as a restaurant where they take the care to try and do it right. We agree so far? Yeah. Okay. Now, uh the fact of the matter is that safety when it comes to writing a HACCP plan, and safety when it comes to dealing with someone who might be immunocompromised or in a hospital, or when you're dealing with packaged foods that have to go out to a consumer where you have no further control, have a much, much higher standard of safety than stuff that you cook at home on a normal basis.
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+[17:56] Like you go, ah, it doesn't smell quite right, it's not quite as good. Because you're not writing a code that has to be followed by everyone. And here I think is the crux that we can talk about to really get into it. Nine tenths of the stuff that I make at home is not pasteurized. Period.
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+[18:10] It's not. You know what I mean? I don't pasteurize fish, I don't pasteurize uh many meats, and I don't worry about it because, and we've had this discussion before, I'm dealing typically with whole muscle cuts. And I am you know fairly certain that they haven't been stabbed to death by someone who had a bunch of E. coli on a knife, and I'm willing to take the risk.
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+[18:34] So why with that kind of in mind, why don't you talk about this to talk about the whole McGillas since I've just been talking for such long and and we, you know, got have you you're the guest, so you tell me what you think. Yeah. Well, I think really the question is safe for whom. If you're a healthy individual with a good immune system, uh most foods have a low enough uh pathogenic load that you could eat them raw and you wouldn't get sick. So if you just do the minimal cooking where you cook it for a little bit until the texture's right, or you hear the outside quickly, it's going to be safe to eat.
+
+[19:14] The real problem is for the people who are immune-compromised, uh they require very few uh pathogens to get sick. So if you're immunocompetent, I absolutely agree. You don't need to pasteurize almost any of the food that you eat. What's much more important is not having cross-contamination uh in your kitchen. I mean, that will cause many more problems than not pasteurizing your food.
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+[19:44] Right. Now, if you are one of these immune compromised people, and one study showed that 15 to 20 percent of the US and UK population is at higher risk of foodborne illness, then you do certain need to pasteurize because even uh say intact chicken breasts, 10% of them still would have enough pathogens inside them that someone who's immunocompromised would have to be pretty worried. Right, right. Do you think also this whole thing is comp uh complicated by the fact that even and I I'm guilty of this as well. People call in and they ask me a question, right?
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+[20:31] And I can't come out, and I'm gonna have one later on the show, you know, if we have time. Uh they come out, they're like, is this safe? Now, uh, you know, what they should ask me is would you cook, would you do this in service to your family? Because it's a different question. Do you know what I'm saying?
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+[20:47] Like, is this safe? I don't really know the context that you're gonna do it uh in. I don't know, you know, your personal history. I haven't delved into the specific science. We'll talk about this in a minute, on every particular uh uh, you know, combination of cooking techniques uh that are possible.
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+[21:05] The only thing that I can really comment on, and maybe this is what I should start doing from now on, is saying, would I serve this to my family or not? Uh because I'll always a hundred percent of the time, like tell you that I can't guarantee that something is safe if I can't, you know. Yeah. And if you were trying to eliminate all risk, all your food would probably taste horrible. Because you can't eliminate all the risk.
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+[21:31] I mean, there's risks from, oh, did you go through and check to make sure there's no rocks in your lentils? I mean, that's a big risk for someone hurting their teeth, or uh how often have you been served food that's too hot that burns your mouth? I mean, that's another safety risk. So there's always all kinds of different risks and trying to eliminate all of them. Uh take for example, uh shellfish.
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+[21:56] You never cook that to eliminate any viruses that are in it. You wouldn't cook shrimp at ninety degrees Celsius for you know, twelve minutes to eliminate uh viruses. Oh hell no. You would instead make sure people wash their hands before they're going to work with the shellfish. Right.
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+[22:16] Right. Which will eliminate much more of the risk and produce something that's still is edible. So I I I absolutely agree. I mean, it's all about you have to balance your risk. And if you're really worried about things, like a lot of food safety experts won't eat sprouts.
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+[22:35] Because they taste bad. They can choose not to eat sprouts. Well they just because that's a higher risk. They also taste terrible. Yeah.
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+[22:43] They taste awful. I didn't hear that too. Yeah. Uh I I would wouldn't mind giving up sprouts myself. I don't think my life would be uh, you know, much worse without them.
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+[22:54] Yeah, especially like raw I mean, they taste like they're poisoning you. Do you know? Right? Yeah. I mean, look, I don't want to hear it from some people.
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+[23:03] There are some decent sprouts out there, you know, like uh saute sauteed uh mung bean sprouts are good, you know what I mean? But like the average sprout that sounds good. Yeah, it's good. The average sprout is an abomination. Horrible.
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+[23:15] Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right. But I like your idea of would I serve this to my family because that's a good rule of thumb. Right.
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+[23:24] Right. And then there's stuff that I haven't thought about enough uh to know. Like, but there's still then it goes down to the question, would I put this in front of my wife and kids? Which I think is like says a lot about kind of where your gut is on something, without you know, coming out and saying this is safe, so that should someone get sick, they come back and they're like, Well, you could you said it was safe. You know, which is not, you know, not necessarily uh, you know, a good idea.
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+[23:49] Well, let me take this a little further. You know, I've had this discussion before with uh, you know, food safety experts, um, you know, people, you know, part of the people who work on the codes for it. And uh you know, their point is that um the average person who doesn't cook for a living or isn't, you know, schooled, doesn't necessarily know what risks they're taking on when they're when they're eating something, and that it's the goal of the food safety rules to make sure that there are no unknown risks that people are assuming, right? So, you know, if you were to warn people and stuff that, you know, hey, listen, uh, you know, I'm cooking this fish and uh I'm there might be increased histamine levels because of the way that I've prepared it, low temperature. Are you cool with that?
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+[24:37] You know what I mean? That then they're cool with it, but they don't want a situation where someone's thrown into a situation without them knowing. And so they write kind of draconian codes. You know what do you what do you think about that? What do you think about that uh problem well yeah I mean in some sense that's uh uh like an idea of universal accessibility if uh someone say immune compromise and goes into a restaurant and orders something that doesn't fit at high risk you would hope that they would feel safe doing that so I can certainly see the perspective of airing on the side of caution.
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+[25:17] So long as we can have that caveat of well yes this is of higher risk let's pretend that you understand what those risks are and have this delicious food. Right. So uh you know another uh uh listener wrote in once and asked about the um chef steps uh procedure I think it was chef steps did it procedure for yeah because I spoke to Chris about uh fish and the fish is not being cooked to a level that is uh you know the it's in any thermal death curve that's widely available but it's a series of hurdles that make it safe and they did the challenge test to prove that it's safe. So clear clearly that's uh safe but in general you know I mean and and that's the that's the other thing a lot of recipes this is Bruno Gusseau's one of his main points is that a lot of traditional recipes have a lot of hurdles in them that you know when you start removing some of the traditional aspects like for instance the pre-salt on a confit or the herbs in a confit like you like reduce some of the hurdles to uh bacterial growth and then um and then therefore uh make it make it more dangerous but you know what about the fact that there are all these things that are safe but we can't prove them because very few of us have the opportunity to do a challenge test yeah it's true I mean uh as you said a lot of traditional techniques have additional hurdles things that make it more difficult for the pathogens to multiply and grow and over time often kill them I mean pickline and things like this where the acid slowly goes through the meat and then destroys the pathogens uh are much safer than you would be led to think from the current food code that just says oh you need to cook it to this temperature to for it to be safe. Now how do we know which of these we can eliminate and which ones we need to eat well the science hasn't really caught enough to uh give us those answers yet so uh are you using a blowtorch in the background I love that no I'm not I'm not sure what the signal is it sounded like a it sounded like a like a blowtorch which I like uh all right so the um but do you think that there is any possibility in the future of of developing b based on worst case scenarios right saying okay we're gonna take these let's say five proteins at their various respective fat levels and uh and actually create a calculator that says this much salt this many of like you know this kind of and then like have some sort of hurdles calculator is that even a possibility and how much would it cost?
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+[28:01] Absolutely. Uh it will take a little bit of uh funding of the science, but that's certainly something even I would like to do in the coming decade or so is uh have much more advanced calculators like the uh A calculator use some step to step site. I would love to make more calculators like that that get into things like oh uh if you want to make a modern uh version of a traditional recipe, what things do you really need to make it safe and delicious for our modern palate? I think that's very doable and something that I want to do. But is that like a a two hundred thousand dollar problem, like a half a million dollar problem or a million dollar problem?
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+[28:44] Uh I don't know. It depends on how cheaply undergraduates work. But that seems like something you could get funding for. See, the interesting thing that's going on now, right, is that there are people out there who are interested in data, hard data that has to do with delicious instead of hard data that has to do with uh straight safety. And so it's it seems that like, you know, now there's more and more ability to get funding for uh for this kind of work, you know, whether it be on uh Kickstarter like the guys, the Underground Food Collective, you know, they're working on their open source HACCP or or something else.
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+[29:21] It seems like, you know, if we got everyone to chip in a couple of bucks, if we knew how much it was going to cost to do all the challenge studies and to, you know, make all the all the uh worst case uh, you know, uh curves for these things, this is something that you know people would be willing to pony up for without even having to go to you know the feds for grant money, you know. Yeah, it would be nice. I mean, some other countries are a little more uh willing to do these uh experiments and uh be a little more flexible with traditional recipes. I was rather surprised when uh uh New South Wales called me up and wanted my help in making a uh guidelines for their restaurant with me for sous vide cooking. They were much more willing to uh come to the science instead of just sticking to the traditional uh equivalent of their food code.
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+[30:16] Right. I mean the you know, part of the problem with that here, especially in New York, is that once once the government takes a stand on it, it's very hard to back off. You know what I'm saying? Uh especially when safety is involved, it's it's much easier to be reasonable if you haven't already taken a stance. Uh very true.
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+[30:36] And so uh you know, s as sad as that is, you know, that's why I think New York really got punished by being the the first jurisdiction to kind of enter the fray. You know, no one really thinks that that happened in a good way, but you know, once you're out there, you're out there and that's it. Um so anyway, and so you know, there you have that. So let me just uh one other thing. Do you know of any curves?
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+[31:00] Because I couldn't find any uh death curves for uh parasites in in fish other than freezing death curves. I couldn't find any any thermal death curves for worms and you know nematodes and all this other stuff in in fish. Are those things available? Have you seen them? Uh none come to mind, but I do have hundreds upon hundreds of research articles, and it's hard to remember all of them.
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+[31:25] Uh I'll look into that and uh shoot you an email and you can mention it some other time. Yeah, I mean 'cause my you know, my feeling is is that fish that you're gonna eat uh raw, and this includes fish that you're going to uh low tempsa that's fundamentally raw, if you're eating a variety of fish that is uh that possi that has a worm that might possibly uh you know uh be hosted in a human, uh you should freeze that sucker at the you know, you should get it actually, you know, done by the process or frozen as if it was gonna be s uh served for sushi, and that's just a safe way to go. Yeah. You know me. Oh, I absolutely agree.
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+[32:00] And it's a much easier way of uh solving the problem. Sure, sure. But like for instance, like some stuff that's not necessarily pre-frozen, but you know, that you might want to cook not too hard, cod for instance, right? But do those worms I can't remember I think it's possible for there to be things in cod that can transmit, but but anyway, so things like it nobody likes it, nobody likes to butcher a cod and see those worms come out. You ever done that, Stas?
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+[32:27] Oh scores. So little worms popping up out of the fish. Yeah. It's disgusting. But uh, you know, I mean that you know, that's one of the few things I can see where you know you're buying a fish that's not necessarily, you know, frozen for sushi because no one's eating that that way that you might cook a little under but I again like that but the uh the reason that you I don't think I could find the curves is I don't think anyone's bothered to do the thermal death curves on those things, you know.
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+[32:53] Yeah, I think you're probably right on that. Yeah, because when you fry a cod, man, those things are dead. You know, when you batter and fry a cod, and you know, and that's the way Gorton's was doing it back before the cod got too uh high priced and had to buy other, you know, fish that they could batter and fry. Almost any white fish will taste good battery. No, I mean if you've pasteurized it for any of the bacteria, you've definitely killed all of the larger organisms.
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+[33:18] Yeah. Yeah. All the worms. So yeah, the question I think that's why most people don't put money into it because almost all the money is going into uh listeria, almonilla, E. coli, desk curves, and of course things like uh botulism spores.
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+[33:35] Right. Things like that. So let's let's get into that. Right. And there might be something else that's gonna crop up and and and wipe us out.
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+[33:42] Who knows? Uh but the uh let's talk about botulism from another, because another thing with Sue V is everyone is worried, I think, kind of incorrectly, about uh well, not incorrect to worry about, they should obviously worry about it, but i they incorrectly uh crazily worried about um the anaerobic bacteria like botulism. Uh and and yes, it's true, uh you know, they grow in in these environments, and yes, it's true, you don't um you're you know, you don't kill the spores, and so it's very easy for them to kind of regenerate. But what's not true, I think, is like the kind of level of paranoia people have about it, because if see, I think it becomes an issue when you're pushing the boundaries of what's good practice. I think that if you treat the food that's in a bag the way you would treat any other decent food product that you care about, that you're not gonna be in harm's way, you know, keep it refrigerated.
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+[34:38] Although, you know, there have been studies, and I'm sure you've read them that people have gotten uh botulism spores to uh generate and reproduce, you know, in fridge when the temperature fluctuates even slightly above, you know, i even at 40. But I I haven't actually read the data myself, but I'm really not worried about it. You no, I I like to uh compare it with canning. If you are going to be canning at home, then you need to worry a lot about botulism and how it's stored and how it's processed up. But if you're just making up uh vegetables for that dinner tonight, then you don't have to worry about botulism at all.
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+[35:14] And I think it's the same way with UV cooking. If you're preparing it for tonight or tomorrow or even the next day, there just isn't any worry about or you shouldn't be worried about botulism. It's only if you want to use it for extended storage that you have to worry about it at all. And so long as you have a good cold refrigerator, which if you're you know serving people in a restaurant setting or commercial setting, you're going to know what temperature fridge is. Right.
+
+[35:48] It's the people at home who don't have a thermometer in their fridge. I think if they would just sit a thermometer in and say, oh yeah, we're hovering around you know 45 Fahrenheit, then yeah, maybe we need to not store this for so long, that would be good. Right. And one one last thing before we I think we need to do like a summary of like you know summary of this so people you know uh one thing that that low temperature cooking does do is you do have the possibility whereas you don't with many other cooking techniques of actually rendering something absolutely safe for people to consume. And I think that's another that's another thing where you know uh this goes uh awry is that we give people data to pasteurize you know a rare steak such that you know you could serve it at a hospital or you could serve it to someone who's you know uh you know really whose immune system has been ravaged by whatever and it would be totally safe and so when you give those numbers, it implies that anything less than that is not safe for the average person to consume, which is n not the case.
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+[36:53] It just goes to show that there's such an increased level of safety that's possible with this technique. What what do you think about that? No, I agree. It's a common misconception that just because you can process a safe, if you don't process that extreme doesn't mean it's unsafe. It's uh the old logic, A implies B, you need not be implies not A, not something else.
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+[37:17] So uh no, I think uh the point that you can make food much safer than with traditional methods and still have say a medium rare done this is a huge advantage. I think that's what you're trying to say. Yeah. So here's so here's I think the like the the summary, right? If you don't feel comfortable cooking it in a particular way because you don't, then don't do it.
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+[37:42] One, right? Uh then two, if someone has a uh recipe that has a series of very specific like hurdle type instructions, this level of salt, this level of acid, this level of time, this cooking thing, then probably, and it's been tested, don't deviate from it because that's the only thing we can guarantee that's safe if safety is your primary concern, right? Absolutely. And and then beyond that, that that you know, really most of the time we don't cook to pasteurize because we're not cooking to eliminate all of the risks that are involved because we're not dealing typically, a lot of us, with uh people that are apt to get sick from that sort of thing. And secondly, uh, even in those cases, it's a good idea to do general things like a kill step uh on the surface of something where most of the contamination is going to take place, and that's going to kill most of the stuff that's gonna go on.
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+[38:46] And that's really kind of the answer to it. And if you just do those two things, then cooking with these kinds of techniques, presum presuming that you're not trying to store things for a long time or not trying to get away with things that you wouldn't otherwise do in your kitchen, isn't really introducing a lot of excess risk. What do you do you agree or no? Absolutely agree on all of those points. Yes, you know, you guys, do you guys have like a manifesto of this up or something like this?
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+[39:13] Someone needs to put something up, because I don't really I don't blog anymore or do much more internet stuff. Someone needs to just write like, hey, look it. Like, here's what's really going on. Do you think you guys could like put something up like that or no? Uh probably.
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+[39:26] I mean, we certainly have some in our next class coming up. Uh but maybe we can do up a good blog post that might uh help explain this better for everyone. Yeah, well, uh, you know, listen, I appreciate it. I think uh hopefully, you know, Ken's happy. Hopefully, we know we cleared up a bunch of uh misconceptions, I think that that uh people have, uh especially when they hear people that sound like they're disagreeing but really aren't, you know, in terms of what's safe and what's not.
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+[39:52] Uh and I hope everyone on Black Friday goes to Chef Steps. What's the name of the course? Uh Sue V Cooking Beyond the Basics. Sue V cooking beyond the basis, uh Beyond the Basics with uh Douglas Baldwin. Let's take a quick commercial and come back.
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+[40:06] Thanks so much, Douglas. This is Chris Howell from Kane Vineyard and Winery. Calling in from Spring Mountain above the Napa Valley. Thank you for listening to this show. In our industrial world of highly processed food and wine, we support the values of Heritage Radio Network.
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+[40:52] All of us at Cain encourage you to seek out individuality and beauty in everything you eat and drink. To learn more about us, go to Kane5.com. All right, we're back. We have a caller on the line and time for one question from that caller. Hello.
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+[41:15] Hello. Uh JD. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing well. Nice.
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+[41:20] Nice. Uh well, what are you what are you trying to make? So for those of you that don't know, uh grinding things is uh difficult and most grinding machines don't uh they have a very specific range of particle sizes that they're good at taking from one to the other. So very few things are capable of taking whole items and then reducing them down to very, very, very tiny particles. Things are good in a range.
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+[41:59] Uh one grinder that's relatively well, not really extremely old school, but uh and is capable over long periods of time of fairly fine particle sizes and also good distribution and mixing is uh a wet grinder. Uh and the kind of uh it's you know the chocolate grinders are based on this, uh, you know, um uh agave grinders for uh production of uh tequila traditional ones are are you know, or any agave spirit are like this. And also in uh India for grinding things like uh idli and other and other kind of wet uh doughs, and they're called wet grinders, and it's fundamentally a rock or two rocks that spin in uh over another flat rock, and they just keep spinning, and as it spins, it grinds, grinds, and grinds and grinds. Now the lucky thing is that it's uh a common enough home product that in uh in India they make home appliances to do this. And those are the ones that most people are using.
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+[42:59] The uh and I bought one years ago. The only one that was available at the time was the uh Santha, you know, S-A-N-T-H-A. Uh it was how much was this? Like 300 bucks or something like that? And it's awesome.
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+[43:10] It broke because some knucklehead dropped it and shattered the rock. Remember that? Jerks. Uh, and uh and so I no longer have one, but I think they're great at what they're great at. There's some other uh ones that I haven't tried.
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+[43:23] So the Santha has uh two kind of uh regular cylindrical stones. There's ones that have cone-shaped stones that roll around. Uh I've never used them. I liked the Santha. Uh, you know, its limitations are fundamentally its size and the fact that if you don't have the right texture in the stuff that you're grinding, it it has a hard time processing it.
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+[43:45] So we would use it to make like stupid smooth nut uh nut pastes and and uh like so much better than so much better than what people make when they make they're like you taste my nut butter. I'm like, eh. And then we used to like, right? Remember that? Like stupid smooth.
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+[44:00] But we would first put them through a champion uh or like do a like a rough grind in a food processor, and then we would throw it in the Santa and have it go. But the trick is you have to get the liquid level right or it doesn't process right. So we would always dope back in, like, you know, no offense to California almonds, but they're low in oil, so we would add oil to something like that when we were processing of you know, of something that had more oil in it, we've processed better, do it that way. Same with chocolate. So we would use it to do like a simultaneous conch and and grind of of and you know, and grinding of chocolate, but the issue there is you have to go for relatively long periods to get the texture right, like on the order of two days or something like this.
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+[44:37] Um anyway, but am I answering the question or no? Yeah, because um I was looking to to do my own conching as well as I wanted to do um kind of an experiment on you know, taking uh the everything popping on bagels and making a butter out of that. Oh yeah? Well, including the garlic and everything. Yeah, I don't know how well it'll liquefy.
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+[44:57] You just you might need to add some uh oil to it, and I would definitely recommend uh taking everything to a fine dust in a uh in like you know, uh a vita prep or a food processor or something like this, or you know, sesame and all that, if you're gonna grind them in poppies in some form of grinder first, because you're not gonna be able to put that stuff into a Santha and just walk away from it. It's not gonna work. You know what I mean? It needs to the Santa needs to start with something that's already some form of paste. And then once it's already some form of paste, it'll just keep on rocking.
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+[45:31] You know what I mean? Now I have that song going through my head. Oh my gosh. It was already in my head because it got referenced before, but now keep on rocking in the free world is not gonna leave my head. Okay, go ahead.
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+[45:42] Um that was pretty much it. Uh thanks for coming into Namade Street Kitchen the other day. Oh yeah, delicious. Delicious. Yeah.
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+[45:50] Had a good time. You guys, like I I obvious, even though that was theoretically lunch, I obviously couldn't eat dinner that night because uh we had so much, but it was all delicious, and I encourage you all to visit uh May May Kitchen. You guys still run the food truck as well, though, right? Yes. Yep.
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+[46:05] We also have the food truck. Yeah. And they're in uh so what what what do you call that neighborhood in Boston? Um it's uh South BU campus area. Yeah.
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+[46:14] It's uh the St. Mary's stop off the green line. Nice. All right. So for those of those of you that go to Boston regularly.
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+[46:20] Although you know what? I wish I had taken public transportation. Your city is a nightmare to drive around. I know that everyone always tells you this, but it's crazy. It's a crazy city to drive in.
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+[46:32] Oh wow, I think we lost JD, but yeah. We gotta get to this last question before the show ends. All right, well, I'm gonna bust through a bunch of stuff. I'm gonna get to as much as you'll let me before you pull the plug. So, uh Austin writes in about fireball whiskey.
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+[46:44] Uh quick summary fireball whiskey has been recalled, some fireball whiskey, has been recalled in Norway, Sweden, and Finland after uh the North American formula, which contains propylene glycol was shipped to Europe. Europe has a ban on propylene glycol, and as a result, fireball whiskey creates two different formulas for North America and Europe, one with PG, the other without. Propylene glycol is an ingredient that has a concentrated industrial level uh at a concentrated industrial level is found in things like antifreeze. Uh on a pharmaceutical or food grade level, it is used as liquid sweetener and things like soda, toothpaste, and tobacco. The USDA has declared it safe at this less concentrated food grade level.
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+[47:16] Uh and then the question is, well, why is it uh banned in the Europe but not in the US? And considering that it's used in things like e-cigarettes, toothpaste, makeup, and soda, is this recall retrieve uh receiving undue attention and scrutiny, or is this justified? And how pissed off should we be you uh that this ingredient use is used in fireball? You should be more pissed off that you're drinking fireball. Yeah.
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+[47:35] I mean, the stuff is like like rancid, like overly sweet, like fake uh cinnamon-based uh liquor, and it should be banned everywhere. That's the concern. That's the main concern. Yeah. You know, it the stuff is uh like from a tastemaking standpoint poisonous, much more so than if you were to drink straight propylene glycol, right?
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+[47:56] And so that's that's my feeling. But inherent in the summary are a couple of things that aren't exactly uh true. So when people put this stuff on the uh you know on the internet and it runs rampant, like and it's like, you know, like people did this with Twinkies. There's a whole book about it, like, oh my oh my god, it's got anti-freeze in it. Right?
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+[48:13] Well, no. Let me bang this out. Uh propylene glycol is used as uh as an ingredient in food uh food application antifreezes because it's non-toxic and it doesn't freeze, and uh it's also unlike things like ethanol, which is also used in food grade antifreeze formulations, propylene glycol water solutions have a uh better heat transferring uh capability in in cooling systems than does uh alcohol water uh solutions, and so they're just better typically uh they're just better to use as antifreeze in things like ethanol and water, and they're used in food grade systems, unlike propylene glycol's cousin, ethylene glycol, which is what's most typically used in car antifreezes, because ethylene glycol is relatively toxic compared to propylene glycol, which is not. Now, ethylene glycol, first of all, you should know that propylene glycol is not good to feed to cats. Now, ethylene glycol kill cats.
+
+[49:13] That's why, like antifreeze, that's why people who hate neighborhood cats like put out puddles of antifreeze because the stuff is sweet, and cats go and lap that stuff up and it wipes them out. Uh propylene glycol, also not good for cats because it messes uh with their red blood cells and can cause uh this thing called Heinz bodies, no relation to the ketchup, even though it's in the red blood cells. No relation to the ketchup, heinz bodies, uh, and can be very uh bad for cats, but that appears to be something that is really typically only in cats. Now, let's head to uh and propylene glycol, by the way, other than the fact that it doesn't uh freeze uh you know readily, and so it's used in antifreeze things, is used for a number of other properties. It's a very good solvent because it combine with polar and nonpolar things.
+
+[49:55] It uh it's not really, I mean, it's slightly I've tasted it. It's like I don't really like it. It's like tight, it's like like, you know, I wouldn't call it sweet, it's like marginally there, but it also like absorbs moisture out of the air, it has a lot of different uh purposes. Uh anyways, uh it is not banned in the EU. The EU has a very specific uh uh quantity that they allow you to have.
+
+[50:18] Now, this is might have been superseded, but I looked up the uh you know the circa 1996 EU rules, and they said that the uh the present uh 25 milligrams per kilogram body weight uh uh daily allowance of uh drinking propylene glycol is based on the no adverse effect level in long-term rat studies, in which, however, the maximum tolerated dose has not been reached. And furthermore, this is direct quotes from the EU uh documents, a safety factor of 100 was used to establish this uh uh AD1 on the basis of the metabolism of propylene glycol, its total toxicity profile, and the large human experience with oral and uh parental pharmaceutical preparations, uh no, parenteril, much I don't even know that word pharmaceutical preparations containing propylene glycol as a vehicle. In other words, they based a level, they're like, Well, we couldn't really kill rats with this stuff, and so we took these other things and then we multiplied that by a hundred and figured that was a safe amount, but they don't talk that way because it's European. We figured that was safe, you know, and so that's what they did. Whereas in the US, propylene glycol has a GRAS generally regarded as safe rating, meaning uh it doesn't have the same limitations.
+
+[51:29] Furthermore, the recipe for fireball did contain propylene glycol in Europe, but just not as much propylene glycol. And so they shipped a U.S. formulation which had a slightly higher amount. So I have a lot uh more to get to, but we're not gonna get to it because I'm being ripped off the air, and this was Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[51:55] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit to donate and become a member. Visit our website today.
+
+[52:20] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Today's program is brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques in culinary, pastry, and bread making to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit Culinary Center.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadion Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Thanksgiving Day week on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah?
+
+[0:53] Mm-hmm. In the studio as usual. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack White in the booth over there. Who else we got in there?
+
+[0:59] We're Vanessa who's trailing us today, food studies student. Hey, yeah, food studies where? Uh NYU. NYU, huh? What style of food studies?
+
+[1:06] What style of food are you studying? I'm actually also a dietetic intern at Bestia University in Seattle. Oh. Wow, so you're like bi coastal person there. Yes.
+
+[1:14] Yeah. So, okay, so are you you're then focusing on nutrition here in NYU or? Nutrition and food studies. So the connection between people, food, and the environment. Yeah.
+
+[1:26] You're uh you're for that connection or against it? Definitely for it. Nice. All right, very good. Alright, well, welcome to the uh program.
+
+[1:32] Uh Stas, anything uh good going on? No, we should probably start. Yeah, well well first tell them where you're going for the uh for the Thanksgiving. Uh going to Ohio. All right.
+
+[1:42] Now that discuss your role. I don't want to. No, all right. You don't have to. Uh I, for the first time in my life, am having Thanksgiving at my house.
+
+[1:49] You know? First time ever. First time ever. First time ever. I was like, you know, crap on it.
+
+[1:54] You guys come to our place uh for a change, so I'm gonna do I mean, look, many years I've cooked the bird no matter where I was going. In fact, I think for the last I don't know how many years in a row I've cooked the bird. By the way, uh Jack, what are you doing? Uh my I'm gonna be at my dad's house, and for the first time I'm contributing sides, so that's nice. Sides, you're not gonna do is there a heritage bird involved?
+
+[2:13] There's not. No heritage bird. No. Uh, you know, sadly, I don't have one either because I didn't ask in time to get one. I'm sure now it's too late.
+
+[2:20] Wyatt has one. I don't know, he beat us. Why? You got yourself a heritage bird? Oh yeah.
+
+[2:24] How many pounds is that sucker? Uh twenty. Yeah. What are you gonna do to it? What's that?
+
+[2:31] Don't say cook it. What are you gonna do to it? Brine it. Yeah. Well, you know that well, no one asked any bird questions this year.
+
+[2:37] There are some uh actually we had a couple couple of weeks ago. You know, there's some uh various uh different ideas about you're gonna brine and roast, right? That's that's fine. I just saw what's his name? Um at Sirius Seats.
+
+[2:46] Kenji. Um Lopez, he said never brine. Yeah, uh I know he said that. Yeah, why? Well, look, anti-briners, and I count, you know, many friends uh among them.
+
+[2:57] For instance, uh Harold McGee is not big on uh all over brining for certain th certain of these things. Their theory is is that uh the liquid that you're adding isn't necessarily helpful for uh the flavor, and also brining can be difficult, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Uh me, I brine. Uh I do but I tend to do kind of a these days I tend to actually do more of what Kenji says, which is just kind of rub salt into the parts that I want to get salty and then kind of wait. Also you gotta remember it's much easier for me to brine a bird, since usually I rip all the bones out of it anyway, and so it looks like a sack of skin, like a like a men in black, you know, Edgar suit slash, you know, sort of like kind of sack of turkey.
+
+[3:38] Uh, and then I reconstruct it when I'm gonna cook it, so it looks like a whole bird again. Um I mean it is a whole bird. I don't cut the skin. I just rip all the bones out like some sort of alien creature. So uh so it's you know I can do kind of things with it that you otherwise can't.
+
+[3:52] I'm thinking of of uh injection brining this year actually. Ooh. You know, yeah we'll figure it out. It'll be easy because I won't have to transport it a hundred miles like I usually do. But your advice for the the regular uh home cook who's not deep owning would be to brine.
+
+[4:05] Or you know at least salt the salt the breast meat. I know look I would go for the injection brining frankly, which is what I'm gonna be doing uh this year. I don't think I'm gonna do the full exoskeleton 'cause I just am so swamped with with uh work, you know. You know, it takes you have to have the the exoskeleton be part of your work or ha I don't know. I don't know what, but I I don't have time to do the exoskeleton this year.
+
+[4:24] Although it is probably the best turkey I've ever made and I've done it like three times. It's always the best, but no, I don't think I'll be doing exoskeleton this year. Did you like the exoskeleton turkey? Yep. That's good, right?
+
+[4:32] All right. Do you guys like turkey? I love turkey. But I prefer turkey the next day. Stas, you a turkey fan?
+
+[4:39] I like it the next day too. Sandwiches? Mm-hmm. What do you like on your sandwich? Um they like a mayonnaise green stuff.
+
+[4:47] What's the mixture with cranberry sauce? What kind of green I don't know what kind of green. I don't remember. Stuff your mom makes green stuff. That sounds good.
+
+[4:55] I I am not a cranberry on my on my uh on my turkey thing. I'm mayonnaise uh mayonnaise uh tomato lettuce salt and pepper and maybe some mustard and pretty much uh that's it. Jack, your your turkey sandwiches? Yeah. I'm alright on turkey, so so.
+
+[5:10] Well cranberry or no? Oh cranberry I'll go fishing cranberry yeah. What? Yeah that's a yes from whyatt, too. Yeah, and what about the bicoastal over there?
+
+[5:17] Cran cranberry or no cranberry on the turkey sandwiches. Yeah, definitely. Yes. I'm the only one who doesn't I it's I I love cranberry. I have my cranberry next to it.
+
+[5:26] Also, like it's the stuffing is the big thing. I mean, uh really, the turkey is there so that you have a large caveat for stuffing. Although you're uh uh you're not allowed to put stuffing in. Don't I don't want to hear any crap about how I'm gonna get someone some food poisoning. The way I cook the bird, you can in fact put the stuffing in because I preheat the I pre pasteurize the stuffing in an immersion circulator before I stuff it in at a temperature lower than it takes to set the egg whites and then stick it in for the So I don't want to hear anything about how I'm gonna poison people because I'm not.
+
+[5:51] Alright, Jack, I don't want to hear anything. Got it. Alright. Uh let's get us some questions. Start.
+
+[5:56] Oh, by the way, should you have a Thanksgiving uh based question? Uh call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh Alex Rodan Deere, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and company. Um my wife recently returned from a visit with her college roommate with some frozen packages.
+
+[6:11] Mark simply bear roast. Did I do this one yet, did I? The uh the bear currently occupies a prominent place on their wall, I guess, you know, the body of it, uh, or the head of it, and I was hoping you could suggest some ideas for how to prepare the meat. Many of my fellow cooking issues fans probably remember your previous experiments with bear, raccoon, and beaver, but I was wondering what you would suggest I do with the meat in light of your experience. I have access to a circulator and a pressure cooker, but that's about it on the tech side.
+
+[6:35] Please advise. Also, someday when you have some time, I have another question. Earlier summer, I attended an event in Toronto uh where Dave spoke uh I was in fact there, where uh I spoke uh after the screening of Soylent Green. At that event, somebody asked a question about GMO foods, uh, one of the issues people often worry about when they worry about food. Uh uh, I gave uh an interesting and nuanced uh answer, and I've heard in similarly allay people's fears about industrial foods, food additives, and many of their um other common food fears, as well as dietary concerns like MSG and salt sodium.
+
+[7:02] I also appreciated Patrick Martin's critique of blind enthusiasm for local foods. Dave, what issues should we worry about when we worry about food and food production? Biodiversity and the health of the ocean seems like an obvious and important one, but what other food issues should we actually be concerned about? Alex. Huh.
+
+[7:16] Well, uh, Alex, that second one, like I could go on for like three days and three nights. I should probably shouldn't even. I mean, I think there's plenty to worry about. Uh maybe that should be the subject of my next book. My next book's not going to be cocktails.
+
+[7:29] Stas is waiting for me to actually choose a subject for my next book so she just won't have to hear me wonder aloud. Yeah, but what are the odds? What are the odds? Zero. Like probably less than zero.
+
+[7:40] Like it let's say I were to actually hand in a book in October, like what would you do? No, just the subject was due. No, the subject was due last last October. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:50] The book is due in October. But so if I actually handed in the book in October, would you would you jump off of a bridge or something? I don't know. I just know it never happened. It's like it's like saying what would it's like saying what would happen if like this table were to suddenly disappear?
+
+[8:02] Yeah without David Copperfield being here. Okay. Uh well, about the bear. Here's the issue. Uh the bear we had sucked.
+
+[8:07] Remember that bear stuff? Yeah. It's terrible. Tasted like uh, well, that was the one that tasted like iron nails, right? Yeah.
+
+[8:13] Wasn't as bad as the raccoon. No. Raccoon was the worst. The worst. But here's what I'm going to tell you.
+
+[8:19] I have spoken to many hunters on this issue, and they swear on stacks of whatever book you choose wholly, that uh that young bear is delicious, delicious, delicious stuff. Uh I've never had it, so I don't know. I will say this that different animal, this is like Rosemary's baby. Every pregnancy is different. Every animal uh that is kind of a wild animal is gonna cook, I think, a little bit differently.
+
+[8:41] It's gonna taste a little bit different depending on how old it is, uh, what it was eating. You know, it's definitely gonna affect the flavor of the meat and the fat that's in it. Uh, you know, what condition the animal was in when it died, uh, how long the meat's been around, and then what kind of cut of meat you have. So certain cuts of meat you know what's going to happen because you've cooked them a lot, like you know, s certain cuts of deer and whatnot, elk, all this kind of stuff. Uh but with something like a bear, now did you say he said it was frozen, right?
+
+[9:11] I think he said it was frozen. It's been a while. I gotta look back. Yeah, frozen. So first thing you have to do is when you're gonna cook them, choose when you're gonna cook, and then kind of let it uh defrost and check your drip loss.
+
+[9:21] That's always what you want to do when you have a frozen piece of something and you don't really know how good the freezer was it was in or how it was frozen. Let the sucker thaw out and see what kind of uh drip loss you get out of it. If you get like huge like a huge sack of like, you know, like pinkish liquid, then it's it's been subjected to some some uh mechanical damage in the freezer from freeze thaw cycles, and then that's gonna limit what you can do in terms of whether it's gonna make a delicious whole muscle cut of meat or not, right? That's your first thing to assess. Second, take a piece of the meat off uh of the outside, assuming it's not freezer burner or anything, take a piece of meat off the outside small, and then just uh cook it in a frying pan and then assess the flavor of it and see where it is, right?
+
+[10:05] After you do that, look at the piece uh all over, right? And then if you think that it could be a tender cut, right, then slice off a small piece of it, throw it in a bag, and determine kind of where you want it. Do you want it to be like pork? Now remember, bear, wild bear can have trichinosis, so you don't want to eat it raw. Uh you know, see whether you want to uh take it like on the steak side, like 57, or whether you want it a little bit like uh more like on the pork side, like 60, 61, 62 Celsius.
+
+[10:34] Let it cook for only like an hour or so, then cut off a piece of it and taste it and see the texture. Now, if it's really tough and you feel that that toughness is from connective tissue, then uh let it ride for a day and then taste it. If it's getting better, let it ride a second day, and then if it's good. And that's how I figure out with a very small piece of meat, kind of what's going on, and you're not gonna get a lot with flavor because with a small piece of meat, you're not gonna be able to test. But then you'll be able to see what's kind of going on, and you should be able to accomplish this before the piece that you've thawed that you want to cook in its entirety goes bad.
+
+[11:05] And that's really if you have an unknown quantity and you haven't cooked a lot of the animal before, that's really how I would uh proceed. Make sense? Yeah, okay. Got a caller on line six. Line six caller, you're on we actually have a line six?
+
+[11:17] No. Oh. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how you doing? Doing all right.
+
+[11:23] That's good. Uh just a real quick question for you. Uh I recently got some ultra spurse M, and I'm familiar with uh ultra spurse three. Uh that's what I've always been using, but I have a supplier in town here who could get me M for super cheap, and I could get way more of it. Is there any major differences or setbacks as far as three and M go?
+
+[11:44] Well, my understanding of them, and and bear in mind that I haven't used them a lot side by side, right? Is uh both of them are spurses. So any sp any spurse-based starch is pre-cooked and also uh agglomerated so that it's easy to mix into it won't clump up when you try to mix it in. All right. So that's so right there you know what kind of family it is.
+
+[12:05] Now I think that the difference between the three and the M, I think one of them is potato, and I think one of them is tapioca based, right? Or no, one of them's corn and one of them's tapioca. It's one of those things. Yeah. Yeah, the uh the three is tapioca and the M.
+
+[12:22] Okay. So when you're looking at uh tapioca starch versus so the the the difference in functionality, I think you're mainly gonna notice because one might have more or less thickening power than the other. And I can never remember which one thickens more, corn or uh or tapioca, right? But this is easy to look up. So the fundamental difference between the two of them is is fundamentally going to be the difference between corn starch and tapioca starch.
+
+[12:47] So I would guess that the tapioca one in higher concentrations is probably going to be more elastic. Also, a lot depends uh on um if you're gonna do a lot of cook after you put the spurse in, if you're gonna do a lot of extra cooking, some starches, and again, I haven't looked at the table, so I can't remember which is which, but some starches will thin out faster if you cook them a long time, especially in the presence of acid. So I think the big difference is you're gonna notice is one might take a little more thickening, one might take a little more to thicken than the other. Could be substantial. I don't know, I have to look at the curves.
+
+[13:17] And the other thing that uh to bear in mind is that one might be more process stable than uh another. But other than that, I think you know, if you're just doing it to add a little bit of thickness to a sauce, I think you're gonna be all right. Okay, so since you're saying that basically you can kind of compare it side by side with the tapioca and the corn, do you think that the corn one would have some weeping in it? Uh well, that's interesting. I mean more than tapioca.
+
+[13:44] Uh I don't know. I mean, like if you're having weeping with I've never I've never used tapioca in uh I mean I don't stock it in my house like cooking like tapioca starch for cooking. So I don't really have a lot of experience on whether you get less sineresis with the tapioca than with not. Um and uh you know what? I would look up and see.
+
+[14:04] If you want to know about like weeping, I would look up which one they recommend for pie fillings. Because if you know, like one of the good things for these things is you can s you can mix it in with uh, you know, with your fruit, you won't get any clumping, and then when you cook it up, it'll thicken out on you, but you don't need to worry about functionalizing it and cooking it out. Um I don't know. I don't know whether it'll have less weeping. I'll try I could try to look it up.
+
+[14:25] Uh if you if I someone tweeted at me that was this you tweeted me a while ago the difference. But I gotta look up the curves and see what whether or not one has less sineresis than the other. But I think like a simple search on like uh ultra spurse, you know, M and then Cineresis or Weeping, and they'll tell you which one's best at kind of holding it back. Okay, yeah, I'll do that for sure. Thanks a lot, Dave.
+
+[14:47] Alrighty, have a good one. All right, let me see. Go back to my phone's back in that mode, Stas where it wants to turn off every 10 seconds. Okay. Uh we have a question in from David uh on lemon sorbet.
+
+[14:59] With an eon, and it's David, right? I guess so. Not like unless it's Italian, in which case it's Davide. Right. Like Scabine.
+
+[15:08] Ah, man, what a jerk I am. First of all, Dave, I would like to say that I just plowed through liquid intelligence, and it's brilliant. Oh thanks. The only problem is that I told uh too many bartender friends about it, and they all suggested I give them a copy as a present. This Christmas, I'm gonna be bankrupt.
+
+[15:21] Please bankrupt yourself by buying my book. I'm just kidding. That's not nice, right? No, I'm just kidding. You know, I'm kidding.
+
+[15:26] Uh okay. Uh, my question is about juicing lemons and lemon sorbet. I developed a recipe for lemon sorbet, I'm pretty happy about. I'm microplane lemon zest into simple syrup, uh, which I assume is 50-50. There's a uh yeah, it's 50 water and 50 various sugars and stabilizers, suclose.
+
+[15:41] Well, this is a complicated simple syrup. This is not actually simple syrup. What you call simple syrup is sucrose, glucose, uh syrup powder, dextrose, maltodextrin, inulin. Heh, to give Stas the the toots. Inulin's what's in sweet sweet sunchok.
+
+[15:55] Uh inulin Xanthan and Guargum. So that's kind of we you should call that complicated sugar. Uh where am I? That's good. Good, right?
+
+[16:03] Uh let it infuse at fridge tent for 24 hours, then filter, add freshly squeezed and filtered lemon juice plus water, and churn in a batch freezer. I like that the well makes sense because it's not for a it's not for uh it's not for cocktails, it's for sorbet. You know what I'm saying? Uh I like that the extra lemon flavor and slight bitter aftertaste the zest gives, and I try to squeeze the lemons at the very last possible moment to reduce oxidation. It served me well until a few days ago when I noticed that my lemons were noticeably funky.
+
+[16:31] Like that's a I just read George Clinton's memoir, so noticeably funky to me sounds like a compliment because I just, you know, went through 250 pages of like the funkiest man ever. How was it? George Clinton's memoir? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's interesting.
+
+[16:43] I mean, you know, it it it goes like the first two thirds of it are well the f like it, you know, when it's going through all the stuff that's like super famous, you know, like like Funkadelic and Funkadelic in Parliament, it's kind of awesome to kind of see what was going on, where they're just like, well, we want to see if we could like do an album where we're high on acid, or you know, talking about like the weird like back and forth between the bands and how trying to keep everything together and how he started with doo-wop and ended up with kind of funk and and he's very, very frank about kind of uh the commercialism of it and trying to like hit like what people wanted at the same time as trying to plow your own way. Really interesting. And then, you know, also interesting when it gets into stuff where I kind of lost track, like the you know, after post atomic dog stuff. Um but the last section is just a diatribe against the music, basically the way that uh music industry is like full of crooks and thieves, uh and stuff like that. And you know, it ends with all the people in P Funk uh in the P Funk family that have died, you know, you know, because you know they're getting old and plus they lived hard.
+
+[17:40] Now you got Alice and Alice and my fancies going through my head, it's all in play into my head. Anyway, all right, gotta go back. Funky here, not a good thing. So we're not talking about good funk. Uh blah blah blah blah, gotta get back to the question.
+
+[17:51] Notably funky. I always start by remember we're talking about sorbet hairstyles. Uh I always started by squeezing the zested lemons to avoid wasting them, but um, then squeeze the fresh ones to reach the amount of juice I need. This time the juice from the naked lemons, i.e. the ones that are peeled, uh, was terrible.
+
+[18:05] Uh terrible, terrible. Depending on how hard I was pressing while juicing, I had various off-flavors ranging from oversteeped chamomile tea. Do you like chamomile or chamomile? Doesn't matter. You don't care?
+
+[18:14] What about you, Jack? Are you a meal or a mile? I usually say chamomile. Meal? Yeah, I'm a meal man myself.
+
+[18:19] I wonder whether that's a regional thing. Uh to heated strawberry, uh, which would be good. To uh rotten eggs, which is not good. Uh the dependence on pressure seems to indicate that they were rotting or oxidizing from the outside in. I ended up throwing it all away and juicing fresh ones.
+
+[18:33] My questions are were the lemons bad in the first place, or did the 24 hours in the fridge with no peel on them somehow ruin them. I have peeled and grated lemons in the fridge all the time, and I like to think that I would have noticed if it had happened before, but I can't be sure, can I? Uh if leaving peeled lemons in the fridge is a bad idea, is there a way to zest them and juice in the same day? Should I uh force and fuse the syrup with nitrous to be able to finish the sorbet the same day? If I juice the lemons and backpack the juice, will it oxidize in 24 hours?
+
+[18:56] Can I freeze the juice if I plan on using it in sorbet and uh where I would refreeze it without heating? Any other thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, and uh keep rocking David. Okay, here's a couple of things. One.
+
+[19:07] If you're gonna serve the sorbet right away, then you know, by all means use like super fresh uh lemon juice, right? If it's gonna sit for a couple of days anyway, then I think you might want to actually do the technique where you take the lemons from fresh through evil back to a different but good again. And what I mean by that is like uh the same way you do with lime juice, where you do like a cordial where you actually take the juice and cook it with the sugar and the zest. So I know this sounds weird. You cook it, right?
+
+[19:37] And then when you cook it, it goes through being that evil detergent into something that still has some of those detergent notes, but it's good again because it's more of a cordial, and cordials we like, even though they're not fresh lemons, but it's not gonna have the fresh uh lemon flavor. If you want fresh lemons, you kind of have to do it uh the day of. I don't know that you're gonna have that much luck. You can do it with the nitrous, but I think what you're gonna want to do is just keep doing it the way you're doing with this proviso. Lemons are so like a lot of times we'll get lemons, and like I know what a batch of lemons smells like when one or two of them is about to go bad, if they're not stored in in the walk-in, right?
+
+[20:12] So, or or in in the fridge. So you might have had some lemons that were about to go off anyway. So if you were zesting them and you notice that they were noticeably soft, then I would just not I would just either like juice that lemon right away or throw it away. Also, uh, like they're really kind of perishable once they're um once they're zested, right? Because they're now super porous.
+
+[20:33] So if they're totally dry, like if you let them dry out a little bit before you put them in the fridge, then they should be okay overnight. But if they're wet and tacky and then they're in a big box and they're kind of packed together, and it takes a long time for them to kind of cool down, or if you're not cooling them at all, like I have seen ones get noticeably effed up and funky, and it's usually from the outside. So what you do is you smell your lemons before you do it. I don't think that the inside of the lemon is rotting out. So I think you just got like a confluence of bad events and got unlucky.
+
+[21:01] What do you think, Stuff? Good job. Yeah, alright. She's like, she just stopped talking about it, stopped talking about it. Uh okay.
+
+[21:07] Um we do? Probably in a second. All right. Uh this is just a uh a comment from something uh we talked about before about ramen noodles. This is from uh Michael Mother, Masters of Sound Ramen question.
+
+[21:14] Michael Mother's masters of sound. I like that. Uh hello, shipping container wizards. I agree that instant ramen is delicious. I really like the results from rehydrating instant ramen noodles, then pan frying it in oil with the contents of the seasoning pack.
+
+[21:32] Optionally, a beaten egg can be poured in if you let the noodles set again into a disc rather than moving them around. Keep on moving on. Michael Mother, Masters of Sound. Right, Roman, like why hate on the instant ramen noodles? They're the feet.
+
+[21:45] Yeah. Yeah, right. I love it. Since when are you on board? She's just fucking messing with me.
+
+[21:51] No, no, I think they are. Yeah, all right. I almost almost I was so unused to Stas agreeing with me on anything that like I almost I almost lost the family show. Okay. Uh Joe calls in.
+
+[22:02] Uh hey Dave, hammer and cooking. We should get this uh live caller. Oh, got a caller, caller. Line seven. Line seven, caller.
+
+[22:08] You're on the air. Hey, is that me? Yeah. Cool. We actually we actually only have one line.
+
+[22:14] We actually have one line, but we like to make it say that we're three. All right, all right. Yeah, anyway. Sorry, you're on the air. All right.
+
+[22:19] Hey, how are you doing, Dave? You guys are all great. I just want to tell you. Um I can hear it echo too. I guess that's normal.
+
+[22:25] Yeah. Um, it's my first time calling in. Um, so my question is kind of cooking related for Thanksgiving. Um, I've got some really cool uh heavy cage stainless steel drums. 55 gallon.
+
+[22:39] I'm looking to make a smoker out of them. Okay. I was thinking if I lined it with some kind of stone that might help uh with the heat capacity. Anything I need to know about looking at what kind of stones to use. Also probably down the road at some point I'll need to make a pizza oven out in the backyard.
+
+[22:55] Mm-hmm. So what do I need to know about stones? Is there a preference heat capacity cook worthy? You know, can I use concrete pavers? Should I get clay?
+
+[22:59] What are your thoughts? Don't use concrete pavers. It's an excellent question. I actually am going to research this again in the next couple of months for the spring because I'm going to be building a bread oven in the spring because I'm finally going to get a piece of dirt outside the city where I can do whatever the hell I want, which is good. But the last time I researched in this in earnest, well this is the second part of your question was unfortunately like seven fifteen or so or so years ago.
+
+[23:29] And uh the uh book was by uh the two authors were last name wing last name Scott and it was called the Bread Builder's Something right and in that book is and I'm sure it's outdated but how outdated can a bread oven be right a a a stone bread oven. That book, and uh maybe Jack can look up the exact title of it while I'm here is um fantastic and it takes you kind of soup to nuts on like what to buy and how to build uh uh a stone bread oven or pizza oven and and it's was and like I said I'm sure there's like newer references out there but was kind of an an awesome book and an eye opener for me in general and it also is fun because it highlights a bunch of people that have built them or that are using them uh commercially and so I think it's a good read. Uh again I haven't read in a long time and I'm sure it's outdated but that was like the book back then. So I would definitely take a look at it. It's not too expensive.
+
+[24:23] It's the bread builders hearthlo hearth loaves and masonry ovens it still like liked on Amazon does it have positive stars on it Jack? Yeah, four and a half. Yeah, all right. Well, I'm sure there's a newer book. Now, when it comes to lining a 55 gallon drum, that's something that I've done more recently.
+
+[24:38] Well, not 55 gallon, but drum more recently. Here's what you got to look out for. One, I would burn the hell out of it beforehand to get rid of any paint or anything on it. Is it naked? Oh, it's it's a stainless steel pharmaceutical food grade and it's clean, and I had it clean before I took it, so it's good.
+
+[24:53] Okay, cool. Uh now there's a couple different things. If you don't want to go super permanent, you're gonna want to always get uh kind of bricks that are meant to be heated, refractory style bricks, right? And so for that, you're gonna want uh fire bricks because they're super easy. You can uh score them and break them with a chisel when you want to uh put them in, and they're super cheap, right?
+
+[25:16] And so you can do a layup with those things and then pack in between them with uh refractory uh cement, and then you know you're kind of good to go. You can put a hole in the bottom of it for uh an air vent and put it in and and you know you're set. Whereas the last time I did it, I didn't have time to do anything. We were uh uh Nastasia and uh and uh some of the uh was it Cliff and Piper and I, we all we built a tandoor in uh at the FCI and we did it with uh with uh uh like a big flower pot. And the problem with using something like that is they're gonna shatter.
+
+[25:47] Even if they can take the heat, they're gonna shatter eventually. So the fire bricks are gonna give you a little bit of uh with like a layer of refractory cement, is gonna give you a little bit more leeway. Other ways you could go is you could build uh like a form like pour a bottom, cast a bottom, drill a hole, right? You with with refract by make sure it's always refractory, like refractory cement. Uh pour it in.
+
+[26:06] You don't really care if that cracks very much, and then you can build a formwork, and you can even put some insul uh you could put some uh you know wire mesh on you know on the inside to hold it uh and then pour almost like you're pouring formwork concrete uh with a tube in it. I've done that as well, but I think you might want to just do something simpler like fire bricks to start to make sure that it's cooking the way you want, because that you could break down and reorganize if you didn't like it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah I like that idea that's good. Yeah and then you can cast uh a lid if you want you could just cast like a lid out of uh or you could buy a you could buy uh you know a round uh uh around pizza stone if you want and uh you know masonry drill through it to to make like a lift for it or something like this and you could have a lid for it that way.
+
+[26:51] Cool. All right thanks a lot I appreciate I'll go ahead and get that book. Another quick note for you guys just real quick I heard uh on your last uh catch up uh episode I've listened to all of your episodes and I've listened to this is my second one live so just you know there's a lot of fans that don't talk to you live I'm usually about a week or two behind my community's a lot shorter now. Alright good well I'm glad you I'm glad you're listening live. Oh one more thing I forgot to mention.
+
+[27:15] You're gonna want to test with the fire bricks on the if you're gonna use fire bricks or any sort of insulation you're gonna want to test to see how long it takes for the outside of the barrel to get too hot for you to be comfortable with and adjust like the thickness that you're gonna want to go. So fire brick you know uh transmits heat at a certain kind of rate and you might want to do like a uh you know sometimes you'll like on the Sears all we use a very very light light uh insulation all the way around it so that uh it doesn't transmit uh heat nearly as so the denser something is typically uh for a given uh amount of heat conductance that a material has typically the denser it is the fa the stronger it'll be but the faster it'll transmit the heat through so you just want to make sure that you uh that you're you know that you're um it's not transmitting so much heat to the outside that it ends up being a problem. So you gotta figure out whether it's you're talking about one layer, two layers, or maybe a lighter refractory layer around the inside before you put the the fire brick down. Okay. Great.
+
+[28:13] Hey, thanks for the info. Yeah. All righty. Then and uh happy Thanksgiving. Hey, you too.
+
+[28:18] All right. Uh okay. Joe wro uh wrote in uh he says, I make pretzels quite a bit, which is good because pretzels are delicious. I like pretzels quite a bit. Uh uh there they are like, you know, they're kind of like you can't be an Arnold without liking pretzels.
+
+[28:32] It's a kind of a thing. It's like Booker, my you know, my older son came back, he's like, Dad, I don't like pretzels anymore. I was like, uh that's a lie. You're lying to me because we're uh we're like related. Like, you know, you look like me, like we have the same DNA, therefore you like pretzels.
+
+[28:45] I was like, I I you you know, you like pretzels, I like pretzels, my dad like pretzels, my grandpa liked pretzels, my great uncle Luke worked in a pretzel factory during the depression. They come from Pennsylvania. We eat pretzels. That's what we do. You're Arnold, you eat pretzels.
+
+[28:59] Okay. Uh I make pretzels quite a bit, but I find that the pretzel salt will absorb into the bread over the course of the day, leaving the bread with that uh uh leaving the bread without that pleasant salt crunch and considerably less attractive. You're talking about soft pretzels here. Uh you know, you you ever by the way, I love New York City, right? I love it.
+
+[29:18] We are kind of known for having our pretzels on the street. They universally suck. They are universally wretched. You know what I mean? Like the standard pretzel.
+
+[29:26] Yeah, but if you're hungry in Central Park, something you're like, oh, it's some mustard. Oh well, mustard, yes. But they're like they're the they're the gin and tonic of street foods because uh a street dog, whether it's filthy or not, is delicious. It just is. You know what I mean?
+
+[29:41] Uh you know, whether the guy, whether he wiped his hands or washed himself before he served you the hot dog, the hot dog tastes good. Pretzels, one of two things happens. They're all they they they pack them into those little boxes sometime in the morning, right? And they have no way to properly store a pretzel the way that they do a hot dog. They store the hot dog in hot dog water.
+
+[29:59] And the hot dog water keeps the hot dog at optimum temperature, optimum moisture, and optimum hot dog flavor, basically from now until the next ice age. They're good. The buns aren't hot, and so they're fine. You know what I mean? Pretzels, they keep them hot, but they're either completely desiccated, in which case, like they're this awful in-between thing.
+
+[30:20] They're not a crunchy pretzel, and they're not a soft pretzel. There's some sort of uh uh that just they make me sad. Like uh they make me just so sad that uh they and use you know, you it's not even the three bucks. You know they cost three bucks now some places? Really?
+
+[30:34] Yeah, but if you go to a museum, anywhere near a museum, they're like three bucks now. Well, Madison Square Garden, they're probably like four fifty. Yeah, what a well my god. By the way, you know I was at Mass, I was at Penn Station by Madison Square Garden yesterday, and uh these this couple was like, you know, do taking all these like tourist photos. I was like, you're standing in front of the ugliest building in all of Manhattan.
+
+[30:53] You could have picked any building in Manhattan other than this one to do your tourist like antics. Like, why the hell would it be that one? Which one? Right outside of Penn Station. Oh, okay.
+
+[31:01] By Mass's, oh, uh like across the street from the Kmart. They would have been better off shooting them from front of the Kmart than shooting in front of Penn Station. And there they are, like, and like the taxi guy and I were just laughing, like, what the hell is wrong with these people? Anyway, pretzels, I'm sure they're four dollars there. I don't know.
+
+[31:18] The other extreme is this thing that you describe, and it's also a problem with salt bagels, which is why salt bagel, you can really only order the morning it's made, take it home and eat it right away. Is that if the bread still has any moisture left to it, it will uh get absorbed by the salt, the salt will weep out, and you'll get that really ugly, wrinkled, like remember the old guy from Poltergeist? That sort of look on the outside of your pretzel, which is a nightmare. Uh so now to the question. Uh I'm using uh Jeffrey uh Hallman's recipe uh with a coarse pretzel salt that's applied to the bread uh immediately after the lie dip, which is at a four percent.
+
+[31:51] Remember, uh you gotta do alkaline with pretzels so to get that darkness, otherwise it just tastes like bagels, which is a mistake. Although does anyone make a pretzel bagel? I'm sure they do. That'd be delicious. They make pretzel buns now, but a pretzel bagel?
+
+[32:02] Mm-hmm. Take note, folks. Uh money dripping from dripping from the microphone. Uh uh Lie dip, which is a four percent concentration. Is there anything I can do to avoid this without impacting the taste texture, look of it, or perhaps there would be a way to apply the salt right before service.
+
+[32:18] I plan to make a batch early in the morning and serve for Thanksgiving dinner eight to twelve hours later. Thanks, Joe. Okay. Uh look, here's the deal. I went to a place, it was Washington, DC, where they have uh like the worst art for their food trucks.
+
+[32:31] And they're all made by the same terrible person, and they're not a bad human, but bad artist, and they look terrible. And everyone there stores their pretzels saltless and then wipes it with some sort of a mixture and then into the salt. And it was terrible. But that's what I would recommend doing anyway, even though it's horrible. Here's what I would do.
+
+[32:49] If you don't mind kind of messing with the outside a little bit, I what I would do is I would take the pretzels, and I do this when I do uh like uh Kumal and Vec, like you know, the uh the buffalo, like the beef on Vec, the not cook you with the caraway seeds and salt. What I would do is take the pretzels, make sure that they stay nice and moist, don't let them dry out, right? And then um, like a little more than even normal. Don't let them kind of flash off a little bit because you're gonna heat them again. Then I know this is cheating, someone's gonna get mad at me.
+
+[33:17] I don't care really. I would do like an egg wash, like uh like a like like 50-50 egg white uh uh water, beat it up, then brush it on the pretzels at the last minutes, put the salt back over top, just enough to wet the top, throw it back in the oven, fairly high heat for just a couple of minutes to flash off the the moisture from the egg and to get it all set. The pretzel will uh the salt will stick. I know this because I've done it before. Uh it's gonna work for you, and I think that's the best way to keep everything together.
+
+[33:44] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh Paul Peterson wrote in about tempeh. Do you like tempeh or tempeh?
+
+[33:50] I say tempe. Tempe? Tempe. Jack? A or E.
+
+[33:54] Tempe's Arizona, I guess. I see. I say tempeh, and Alison's here and says the same. Tempe. Tempe.
+
+[33:59] All right. Uh tempeh. I had a few questions on vegetarian proteins, though I realize it's short notice for today's episode. But it's actually from two weeks ago, so it's no problem. Um rush.
+
+[34:09] Uh uh, I was curious if there's any advantage to sous vide for producing Ceitan. Typical Seton recipes involve mixing high gluten flour with water, uh, flavor additives. We have to get all the starch out first. Anyway, whatever. And then either boiling uh for about an hour in water broth or roasting basting for the same amount of time.
+
+[34:24] I'm wondering if the protein set up at a lower temperature and a Satan could then be bagged with some broth and cooked with a circulator for longer times. I don't think there's gonna be that much of an advantage really to using um a circulator. I don't mean uh look, someone write in. I tried to look on uh Herbivaracious and see whether he's done a lot of work with it. I don't know whether uh Eddie Shepard's done a lot of work with it.
+
+[34:42] Uh I don't see that the temperature control is gonna be a big advantage here. However, vacuum bagging could be a big advantage because you can use smaller quantities of things to do boils and you can keep flavors more concentrated, also you can lock volatiles in without boiling them off. So I could see a situation here where vacuum bagging would be a big advantage, but I don't know if you're gonna get a big advantage from actual temperature control. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[35:04] Uh but I don't know. And I'm willing to be told otherwise by someone who actually makes that a lot. Okay, next. I'm wanting to produce my own tempeh, but all the recipes I can find require adding a tempeh culture, but I never discuss how to reuse or grow one's own culture from scratch or from a small amount of starter culture. Well, there are but there are some things on the web on how to uh use a small amount to do it.
+
+[35:24] So I'm not gonna get in that, I'm gonna start with the other one. Are there food safety issues issues such that growing my own culture could potentially be dangerous, or uh is it just too much of a hassle and it's easier, quicker to continually buy used tempeh culture? Thanks, Paul Peterson. Okay. So first thing you gotta know is that uh so you you've had tempeh, right?
+
+[35:45] So tempeh, what it is is you take the you what? What are you looking at? Are we are we getting kicked off? What? We got a couple minutes.
+
+[35:51] A minute, yeah. Uh a minute? Oh, this is gonna take longer than a minute. A long minute. All right.
+
+[35:55] Uh so uh the what's happening with tempeh is that you're getting growth in the uh in the beans that it and it's actually the mycelium growth that you're eating, and the um the organism that's responsible, uh, and I can never uh pronounce anything, and all you all know this, is uh a rhizopus, and I forget which rhizopus it is, but it's a it's this uh all these rhizopus as you know species of uh uh of things that are that are growing. And the question is, how do you get from a wild starter these things just uh growing? And then the question is because there are rhizopus strains that can make uh nasty, nasty things, right? Um so what do you do? Well, it turns out that uh, and if you look up uh the book, the book that I would look up is from microbiology, uh it's microbiology and technology of fermented foods, 2006.
+
+[36:47] Uh Robert Hutkins, I guess is the editor of it. Uh, and basically asked whether or not wild fermentation is dangerous, uh, given the fact that there are uh various uh rhizopus strains that uh are that do make uh enterotoxins and things that are bad. Uh this is the direct quote. As is the case with other mold fermented foods, e.g., soy sauce and miso, the wild or pure culture strains used for tempeh production do not produce mycotoxins. And so uh like it's just you know shown here that no, they just don't seem uh to do it.
+
+[37:21] And there's also uh there are new world strains of it. But the question is how do you get it? Well, it turns out that uh traditionally when people are making these things, they uh take hibiscus flowers, and specifically in Indonesia, this in uh this Indonesian hibiscus, and the leaves of the hibiscus have a preferential culture of these uh rhizopus uh uh strains, so that they literally wrap the leaves around uh the bean, let it grow that way, and that's how they get the culture. So if you have a uh a hold of hibiscus leaves, maybe you uh a tropical U.S. based hibiscus leaves will give you the same sorts of results.
+
+[37:56] You can try it, and apparently uh it won't, according to this book, remember not me saying it, I don't know. Uh according to this book, when you're doing it the uh, you know, according to the recipes, typically ones that don't kill you are the things that grow. So if you can get something that looks like tempeh from wrapping it with a hibiscus leaf, and you can find online, I would look up in that in that book uh how to do it, um you probably won't uh probably won't die. Right? Yeah?
+
+[38:22] Although it sounds like it's gonna be a lot easier just to make it. All right, listen, they're gonna kick me off here. So uh I have more questions I gotta get to. I gotta get to Jasper and his clarification. I gotta talk to Ken about Ken and his response to our uh safety thing.
+
+[38:35] Uh we got a bunch of other things, but we're gonna have to get to him after Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving, happy turkeys. Happy Thanksgiving. Woo! Those Nastasia cheering.
+
+[38:46] Oh, and listen in. I think on Friday we're gonna be on All Things Considered doing demonstrations. I don't think it's today. I think it's on Friday. Did you mention the radio show?
+
+[38:54] I don't know what they're gonna do. I don't know what. They're their own radio show. I don't think they're in the business of pumping us. I don't think they like us.
+
+[39:00] Oh well. Anyway. All right. Well, check it out. Cooking issues.
+
+[39:15] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit.
+
+[39:42] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Crooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1250 on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer, uh Lopez, Jack in the booth, and special guest star on today's show, Nick Wong. How you doing, Nick? You have to talk into the microphone.
+
+[0:55] He's just gonna sit there and he's gonna shake his head. So Nick's special mode of being guests is just gonna be to lean back and go, you can't see it, but imagine someone looking back and closing their eyes almost. Almost, not 100%, just back and forth now. No. No, no.
+
+[1:12] Anyways, uh so Nick was uh originally we met him at the French Culinary Institute. He was one of the uh tech interns, then go went to work at Som. How long do you work at Sombar? Before the first time. Nick is killing my brother.
+
+[1:29] Two years. And then for some reason, he decided where do you go in grammarcy or something like this? And then he went out uh where the hell do you go? You went to Chris Constantino's place, uh uh in Canto. The no longer no longer extant in Kanto.
+
+[1:42] Chris has a new restaurant. And now for some reason that uh escapes us, he's back at Songbar. Right? Right, Stas? Uh-huh.
+
+[1:49] Yeah. Listeners have no way of knowing if this guy's really in the studio. Yeah, no, he's being a good one. You could be making him up. It's like an imaginary friend, you know.
+
+[1:55] You know what? He's gonna have an imaginary lunch after this. Imaginary pizza. And then he will then become my imaginary friend. The imaginary pie here is not that good, also.
+
+[2:09] Oh, calling out their imaginary pie. I am. What uh what varieties of imaginary pie do they have here? Uh there's there are a few. Yeah.
+
+[2:18] Yeah. They have pecan pie. Or a pecan. We already went through this on the air. Pecan or pecan?
+
+[2:24] Oh, pecan. Pecan, which we're northerners. I think if you're from the south, isn't it pecan if you're from the No. Or is it the other way around? Is it peacan if you're from the north and pecan if you're from the south?
+
+[2:32] But we've had this discussion and I'll have it till the day I die. Goop or nuts. Goop or nuts. Jack, goop or nuts. I don't even know what that question is.
+
+[2:41] What the hell? Do you not eat pecan pie? Stas? Oh, goop or nuts. Oh, nuts.
+
+[2:45] Nuts? I don't like it. Any variety of pecan pie? You don't like any variety of pecan pie? No.
+
+[2:52] Is it because you don't like pies? Because you don't like crust? Because you don't like biscuits? Because you're bad? Yeah.
+
+[2:56] What about just a filling? Do you like pie filling? Uh I don't like nuts a lot. So I don't like pecans. D D's nuts?
+
+[3:06] There it is. D's nuts. Uh I have to get that in. Do you know that there is a well, there is a company. First of all, our bar manager D is making a drink, I think, with nuts, and it's gonna be called D's nuts.
+
+[3:19] And there is a uh nut company, a legit nut company out of Louisville, Kentucky. And I saw them on Twitter a couple weeks ago, and their their Twitter their their thing is these nuts. Because it's you know, they're D. And they sell nuts. Apostrophe S, nuts.
+
+[3:38] So it's very similar except for the Z. Of course, you know, whole groups of people enjoy using a uh a Z instead of an S. Jack, I I would imagine you might occasionally I'm not a Z guy. Come on, Jack. Back in the day?
+
+[3:44] Yeah, for sure. When you were downloading when you were downloading uh programs, were they wears anywhere? Wow. Yeah. Wow, what a reference.
+
+[4:00] Yeah. Yeah, straight. Try to keep current on stuff from like ten years past. Like I'm I'm very current on what was going on ten years ago. So, uh, this is our first time back from Thanksgiving.
+
+[4:11] Uh so Stas actually had a question. I don't know if I was supposed to say it's from her or not, but this is the first time Nastasha's ever written a question into the true. This is big. Oh, well, maybe she was around the case. And just not told me?
+
+[4:23] Yeah. Maybe you just ignored her. Like who Nick's talking? So here's uh the first that I know of question from Nastasia. When your friend is overcooking a turkey at his house, his house, remember, can you tell him to take it out of the oven or give him any type of direction, especially if he thinks the turkey needs another hour?
+
+[4:49] Well, it's an etiquette question. We've answered etiquette questions before here on the radio, like regarding whether or not you're allowed to mess with people's tomatoes, and then we got Daniel in as a result. So here's the thing. First of all, uh it's a tough it's a tough call. I think a lot depends on how much gravy they're making.
+
+[5:04] How much gravy were they making? Uh a lot. Three three boats worth. Okay, and were they giving you sharp knives? No.
+
+[5:11] Oh. Well, were there mashed potatoes? Yeah. So you could conceivably take each piece of shoe leather, slice it into tiny little niblets, surround the niblets with mashed potatoes, and then drench it in gravy and choke down one slice and you're out. And you don't have to deal with the leftovers because they're not in your kitchen, right?
+
+[5:30] So it's not your sandwiches that he's ruining. Right. So nah, I don't think you can take anything to him. I think maybe you can be like. I think you're allowed one of these.
+
+[5:37] Shoulders go up, head goes aside a little bit. Yeah, maybe maybe it's done. I think you're I think you're allowed one of those, you know. I think maybe you know. I think maybe it's done.
+
+[5:48] Because and then, like, if you're really good friend, you're allowed to say, listen, you know that little bit of the meat near the thigh that you're worried about is not cooked? That's really not that big a deal. We can slice that off and just pan it later. Really, you don't want to overcook the whole breast and the thigh and the rest of the leg and stuff like that for the sake of that one little piece of meat down by the thigh that we all know, worse comes to worse. I just cut it off and throw it in the microwave for about a minute and a half, and that little that little nugget of meat is done.
+
+[6:14] Right? No one ever gets down to that part of the turkey anyway. Except for my house. Oh, yeah. But but my point is that uh that you're allowed to say.
+
+[6:23] Then if they're like, ah, then you all right. Yeah, that's it. Another hour. And just, you know, although I heard you got busted because I asked you about this. I was like, well, the one good thing about a badly overcooked turkey is usually the skin's pretty good.
+
+[6:36] Right, but I didn't get any skin. Oh do you know Johnny Hunter from uh from the yeah, the uh the underground uh food and meats collective in Madison, Wisconsin, we visited a while ago. Great folks. Uh he did the bionic turkey. Sweet, the bionic turkey lives on.
+
+[6:52] He uh Nick, if he was to ever speak, did that once with us, I think maybe twice. You did it with us twice or once. I don't think you did it. Just once? You didn't come to do it at my house with me?
+
+[7:01] No. You were in San Francisco at the time. You I think you brought it in just to do this to circulate at FCI, but no. Anyway. So I've done the Bionic Turkey, I think, three times now.
+
+[7:11] But Johnny did it, and I was awesome. So he posted on Twitter, so go look on uh Johnny Hunter's uh Twitter account for his bionic turkey, or I retweeted it if you have my Twitter uh at Cooking Issues. I did not do the Bionic Turkey this year because I wanted to go super simple this year for me, super simple. So what I did was I went to the uh Pollo Vivo place up 117th Street between like Far to 2nd Avenue, picked out my live turkey. They didn't have the wild turkey of reasonable size this time, that you know the the you know the Wajalote style, they only had the little ones.
+
+[7:39] And I wasn't gonna feed all those people with like a like a 15-pound turkey live. That's like 12 pound turkey in the real life. That's like it's like me. I can eat that. Anyway, so I got the live turkey, let it rest a day, right?
+
+[7:51] This is I suggest people do this. This is the easy, the easy hype, the easy complicated way. This is the easiest complicated turkey I've ever done. Then you know how when you teach you to bone out birds, you bone out, like you cut down the breast and you bone out so that you then roll it back up, but uh usually you don't cut the you don't cut down the back of the animal. You know what I'm saying, Nick?
+
+[8:08] Right. So anyway, so this one I boned out by cutting down the back of the turkey, ripped out the carcass, ripped out the thigh bones, left in the legs. Are you a believer in taking out the wishbone before you bone out a bird or not? Jackie Peeps, that's Jacques Papin for all of you out there. Jackie Peeps always takes the wishbone out of the bird before he does the uh which I think makes sense if you're gonna carve the breast off of it, because then you don't lose that little bit like where your knife goes around.
+
+[8:32] Nils never used to take the bone out. I can't decide whether I like taking the bone out or not. Now it's just a habit. You take the bone out or not, which I'm too lazy to take the the bone out. So you lose that little nugget of meat.
+
+[8:42] You can you can put the knife in the other set, yeah. You can kind of come at it with the knife in a different angle. Yeah. My kids for the first time this year did the wishbone. Booker lost.
+
+[8:50] Dax was super happy. Because Dax knows the grip up high and like Yank hard trick and has snapped it off and left Booker with this little stub of wishbone. And Dax was like, Yeah! Like running around the house with the wishbone. I was like, you're not gonna get like they both wish for crap you're not gonna get.
+
+[9:04] Neither of them were like, you know, I want like, you know, a candy bar or some crap that like I might actually get them. I bet Booker wanted something you're gonna get for him for Christmas. No, they both wanted like a thousand dollars a day. Or something like, you know, something stupid that you're not gonna get out of it. People need to like, is it that I'm all for dreaming big, but don't dream stupid.
+
+[9:24] You know what I mean? What if you just wish to win the wishbone competition? For next time, you mean? Or like a like a retroactive wish. You're like, you won as you pull it, you've won.
+
+[9:34] Exactly. See, that's why I like Nick. Yeah, sweet. I love that. Alright, done.
+
+[9:38] Done. I won. Done and granted. One, granted. Anyway.
+
+[9:43] Uh the Simul win grant. I like that. Uh so, anyways, so uh had the turkey, so now you have the bones. The great thing about boning out of turkey, I say this a billion times, say one more time. You have the bones to make the stock.
+
+[9:52] So you bone that sucker out, so dry salt it, stick it in a ziploc bag. Now the turkey fits in your fridge, no problem. No problem. In a ziploc with no bones, big turkey fits in the fridge in the little crisper drawer. Anyways, salted, sitting overnight, take the bones, roast them off, bought extra bones because that's how I am.
+
+[10:07] Made the stock in the pressure cooker, duh, coon recon, no venting. Uh, let it come down. Then the next day, when I made the I injected the stock into the I I salted, took some of the stock, boiled it down, salted it up, injected the stock into the into the breast meat and the legs and stuff, not water stock, then with a meat injector, then made the stuffing plug, right? The giant stuffing plug, carcass shaped stuffing plug. Circulated that at like 80 Celsius to heat the whole stuffing plug up, like sterilize it pretty you know, pasteurize it pretty quickly and uh and uh heat it through.
+
+[10:41] Then used that as an inside heater, draped the turkey around the stuffing plug, like basted boat ton of butter on it, and then threw it in the oven so it was cooking from both sides at once using the stuffing plug as my heat reservoir. Turkey. And and other advantage, it's because the skin is wrapped around the side, really you're cheating and you're putting the skin that is underneath right on the bottom at the outside, all the skin crisp. All the skin crisp, crisp and delicious. Yeah.
+
+[11:13] Anyway. Uh as opposed to Stas's turkey and Jack's turkey. Did you have uh which they sucked? Uh Nick, uh, how is uh actually Jen liked this even better than Bionic Turkey? I don't know whether it's just because there wasn't the headache of me frying or what?
+
+[11:27] Probably. Yeah. No, that's definitely the reason. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[11:31] Yeah. Yeah. Nick, what did you do a turkey? I did not do turkey. What'd you do?
+
+[11:36] I went over to Mindy's place for Thanksgiving dinner. Oh, Mindy, who ran the intern program for a long time. Uh uh how is Mindy's turkey? It's good. Yeah?
+
+[11:47] What'd she do? Straight regular roast. I didn't have to tell her that it was overcooking because she knows better. Right, then to that mean because she did but she did not overcook it? Nope.
+
+[11:59] Turkey was good? Yes. Gravy? I made the gravy, so yes. Was that you roasting bones and song?
+
+[12:07] And the day a couple days before Thanksgiving, it smelled awesome like turkey stock and song. That's probably because we're making boatloads of turkey gravy. Strong. All right. So enough of Thanksgiving.
+
+[12:18] Uh I don't think I have any other Thanksgiving things to report. Anything else uh good or bad on Thanksgiving? Anything to report? Is that the end of Thanksgiving? We can't talk about Thanksgiving now until next year.
+
+[12:27] We could talk about it. Jack, what do you want to talk about? You want to talk about Thanksgiving? No, I got nothing. Thanksgiving Thursday.
+
+[12:34] Yeah, yeah. So uh another thing, I want to say, you guys seen the movie The Jerk? No. Yeah. Yeah, you seen The Jerk?
+
+[12:41] Yeah. So Stas, I like for some reason Nastasia like likes to claim that she's never seen any movie prior to like 1995. She's like, that's old. Like, meanwhile, like I've seen like, you know, movies from the 20s, 30s, teens. So, like, it like, especially any comedy movie in like the 70s or 80s, she's like, no.
+
+[13:00] That's not true. What's stripes? Who's Bill Murray? They're great movies. And like I've seen them all.
+
+[13:07] Oh, you have seen them. I can't believe this. One of my favorite movies is Young Frankenstein, and you know that. It's a great movie. I am really angry right now.
+
+[13:15] You sound you sounded. Because I feel like I am enraged. You sound like Mike Dukakis. You sound like Mike Dukakis. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:21] Yeah. Anyways, but you haven't seen The Jerk? No. Alright. So you'll enjoy this, Stas.
+
+[13:28] Fake silent, imaginary silent. For a change. Yeah. Oh. Wow.
+
+[13:34] Whoa, she just gave them oh harsh. Anyways. So in The Jerk, and I'll tell you why I feel this way. Nastash will enjoy this. In The Jerk, there's a famous section where uh the Steve Martin is the lead character in The Jerk.
+
+[13:46] And he's an idiot. He's not just a jerk, he's an idiot, right? So at one point he's working in a gas station and the phone book comes. He's like, The phone book, my name in print, the phone book finally. Like, like great stuff's gonna happen to me.
+
+[13:58] My name's in print. I'm in the phone book. And the guy's like, what the hell? You're in the phone book. And then, like, literally the next scene is like a psycho sniper who opens the phone book at a random page and goes like, Naven R.
+
+[14:10] Johnson, typical bastard. And then, like, go drives out in a truck and tries to kill Steve Martin at the gas station with like a sniper rifle, right? And so it's like, you know, a classic, like, guy thinks he's getting somewhere, but really it's stupid because who cares about where they're in the phone book, but that random thing does happen to shaft him in life. And so that's what I'm living right now with Amazon. So like uh, what's happening with Amazon?
+
+[14:31] So, like, I'm like, oh, we're in Amazon, my name's in the phone book. And like, uh, because we have the Sears All supposedly on sale. Amazon hosed us how hard it which by the way, Sears all is on sale on Amazon, right? But they are like, they like no one understands what the hell's going on. Whenever we have something going wrong with Amazon and the Sears All, like, everyone is like, it can't be Amazon.
+
+[14:51] Amazon is a well-run large company, and it must be you guys who are incompetent and stupid. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. People, right, Stas, people just don't get how crazy instinct. Well, that's also true. But like the like the fact that is like, it's like, oh my god, I can't even get into it.
+
+[15:07] Then, so Amazon hoses us, and they say they're not gonna sell the Sears Alls on Black Friday, even though we swore in a stack of Bibles that they were in stock, which they are, they were at Amazon's warehouse. Stas and I are up there at midnight, you know, Thanksgiving, like, well, she was, I don't know, what an hour early or some crap, 11 because Ohio's on our time zone. Anyways, so she's like, she's there, and like, we're like, and what? And like they wouldn't let us sell live. That was it.
+
+[15:31] And like people start some idiots like sent us in, like, so what they're they're asleep at the too much turkey. They meanwhile, Nastasia are up at like midnight, trying like they thought we fell asleep, and we're sitting there like, what the hell? What the hell? And Amazon, even though all of their customer service is not in the United States of America. Maybe they have like five guys in Washington who are in the United States of America, right?
+
+[15:51] But they have a boat ton of people who are customer service who have nothing to do with the United States of America, right? Yet those guys also get Thanksgiving off. What the hell is that about? No customer service on the Thanksgiving, trying to get the stuff selling. By that time it was Black Friday, though, which you would think Amazon would be on top of.
+
+[15:59] Yeah. Right? So, so they're like, well, you you can't. And then like all of a sudden, Sears all gets flagged as a hazmat device. Meaning that it's hazardous material because in the it uses the word torch, I guess, or gas or something in the text.
+
+[16:21] So the computer, because they have some sort of like dumb NSA algorithm like searching it for like terror and hazmat crap. It's like, uh, yeah, this might be hazmat, so maybe we shouldn't sell this thing. So bang. And then it says, could take maybe 42 out 48 hours for us to look at it, maybe longer. So we're like, what the what?
+
+[16:38] Remember this? So I get a I get a guy on the phone at eight when they opened up in the morning next morning, and he's like, uh, yeah, you're you're pretty much shafted. He's like, you have one option. He's like, I was like, they're all in your warehouse. He's like, yeah, so here's what we're gonna do.
+
+[16:49] We're gonna put it on sale on the Amazon website, but really you're selling it, not us. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, you're selling it, not us. I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, well, it means that you have to ship it.
+
+[16:59] I was like, yeah, but you have all of our Seersols. And the guy's like, yeah, I know. So what then you'll have to do is you'll then have to make your own separate order to ship out from our warehouse as your own self to these customers. So we're like, I was like, what? I was like, then if you're gonna if you're gonna accept an order, and then you're gonna let me ship the order from your warehouse, why don't you just take the order and ship the order?
+
+[17:23] And they're like, no. No. And there is no, this is what people aren't gonna believe. They're not gonna believe this. There is no way on the computer to say, hey, Amazon, this chunk of 300 orders that you got in, right?
+
+[17:38] This chunk, right? Like, really those are your orders. Can you just ship them out and track them? No. And when you when we use Amazon to ship, I'm sorry this is boring people, but I have to get it off my chest.
+
+[17:49] When you use Amazon to ship as like a as we're a seller, they don't guarantee they're gonna ship it out in a reasonable um amount of time. Even when you pay expediting, which I did for all of the series all that got ordered, I pay the extra expediting, I got totally hosed because I didn't want people to not have it prime speed, right? They don't guarantee that. However, the orders that they took in your name and gave to you, they expect to get out in a reasonable amount of time and you get dinged if you don't get them out. What?
+
+[18:17] I hate them. And then in the middle of this, and this is where the the jerk really came to my mind in the phone book. They also ran out of stock on liquid intelligence for no reason. Even though I called my publisher and it's been sitting in the warehouse waiting for their pickup for like a week and a half. They had copies of liquid intelligence.
+
+[18:32] Oh, did they not get an interview? Was that the thing? They didn't do the interview. They're a publisher. They should know how to get a book to the whatever.
+
+[18:38] Anyway, so yeah, for some reason, like I got I got I got randomly selected in the phone book for like singling out by Amazon.com. I'm I'm Bezos' random whipping boy of the day. Enough of that. Uh so anyways, um we got some questions in other than Nastasha's turkey question. So let's up, you know, I'm gonna do in reverse.
+
+[18:59] Crap on that. I'm not gonna do yet last week's now because they're not on my phone now. I'm gonna do this week's, and then I'm gonna go back to. I like the first question. You like the first question?
+
+[19:06] Alright, so I'll do it. So now you get to know what uh Nastasia likes because she apparently likes this question. From Jeff Moore in Jersey City. It's here at Jersey. Anything for Jersey?
+
+[19:14] No love for Jersey City? Jack, any love for Jersey City? Jesus. Wow. Wow.
+
+[19:20] He's he's like won't even pick up the mic for Jersey City. I think maybe he's in the bathroom. I'm here. Oh, there's no love for Jersey City. I'm gonna give some love out to Jersey City.
+
+[19:29] Why? What's all the hate on Jersey City? Mr. Love. Wow.
+
+[19:33] Damn. Damn. Alright. I've been enjoying the Liquid Intelligence book, but I was wondering. Oh, this is why.
+
+[19:39] Saz, you're such an evil person. This is gonna give an idea of how evil Nastasia is, people. She just loves to break them. Like, like, she loves to break them. If she had them, she would break her own because she loves to break them so much.
+
+[19:55] Uh I've been enjoying the liquid intelligence book, but I was wondering if there's a published errata list, so I can mark up my book with any corrections which have accumulated so far. I haven't been able to find one at the publisher site or at cookingissues.com, nor have my attempts at Google Foo found it. Google Foo. That she knows she used to work at uh at uh Soundbar and a PDT. Karen Foo is her name, not Google Foo, but now Google Foo is a thing.
+
+[20:18] Uh found it for me. Thanks. And keep doing what you do, Jeff Moore. Alright, Stas. You evil person, you uh only likes it.
+
+[20:25] You remember that song? Remember that uh group uh Garbage? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm only happy when it rains.
+
+[20:31] That's a good song. Yeah, that is Nastasia. That is that is Nastas. She's only happy when it's complicated, you know? Yeah, she feels so good, feels so bad.
+
+[20:40] She's only happy when it rains. Um, what was the question again? Uh published errata. Okay, there is not. I am thinking of printing up a sheet though to carry around with me.
+
+[20:51] Uh and maybe give it to the publisher. Um the the basic there, there's nothing the only thing in there that I know of that actually would affect a recipe is in the Manhattans for two. Uh the vermouth is written down as a fat three-quarters of an ounce, and I think it's a fat one and three-quarters, I think is the thing. I have to look at exactly what the thing is, but the milliliter number is right. So if you follow the milliliter number there, but go look at the Manhattans for two, and that number is wrong.
+
+[21:19] The other main uh issue, uh the issues that I found is that in the uh classics cocktail section at the end with the where you have the chart of all the things, they they well some somehow they the the acid numbers got messed up in the before, but not in the after. So it's not gonna affect uh the recipes, except for the vermouth listing in the in the double Manhattan experiments. I haven't seen any uh like errata that actually mess up the um mess up the recipes. I will say in the in the reprint, I'm probably gonna lower the uh froze the frozen daiquiries. I might I'm gonna lower the lime juice a little bit, little bits, little bits in retrospect.
+
+[22:02] I might lower it a little bits. So there's nowhere he can go. I I just gave it to him. If he's listening, I just gave him the answer. And then like in the next one, it's like there's no printed sheet yet.
+
+[22:14] Oh, you know what? I think you should call Nastasia. I'll give her your cell number over the next radio program, and you can call her for the errata list. How about that? Does that sound Nick?
+
+[22:21] Sound like a good idea? That's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. I give you a hint.
+
+[22:25] It's in California, so it's like she still has like a like she still has this first cell phone she got when she was like like 12 from Covina, California. She still has the the area code. My first cell phone is in New York City, so I still have like an honest to God New York City cell phone and a half cents. You know what Booker actually wants a three, four, whatever it is, instead of he has a nine one? He has a nine one seven.
+
+[22:45] I have a two and two. Yeah. On your cell phone. How the hell do you do that? Uh someplace in Queens.
+
+[22:51] Like what do you mean? It's like you go there and you're like, yo, give me the two one two. I was young. I don't know. They were just like, you want two and two?
+
+[22:56] And I was like, Yeah, I'll take it. Of course you do. You can you pretend to be Manhattan forever. That's right. Yeah.
+
+[23:01] Yeah. Anyways. Also, I've never been to Jersey City, really. I'm sure it's a great place. Have you been to the Hoboken?
+
+[22:59] Not really. I don't spend much time in Jersey. I was once I had to go to Hoboken. I mozzarella is great there, by the way. We talked about it on a show.
+
+[23:12] Yeah, mozzarella there is great and worth going to. Read anything that Josh Ozersky wrote about Mozzarella and to find uh suggestions there. But the only real time I've spent there, other than that, was uh back when I used to work at the lawyer's office. Uh, this is how little work that we did. They this is before Powerball was in New York.
+
+[23:29] They literally put me on a train to go buy the office's Powerball tickets in Hoboken. Wow. Keep in mind, I was their computer consultant. So I was like theoretically making a decent wage. You know, more much more decent than I have made since.
+
+[23:42] And yet I like I was put on a on a train over to Hoboken to buy lottery tickets. We didn't win. Which we didn't win. I don't know whether you didn't aware of that fact. Okay.
+
+[23:54] Can we take our 60-second spot very quickly so we have more time? All right. Okay, here we go. It is so exciting to have this new medium. Hosting after the dump has been a huge part of me transitioning from being a blogger to somebody who has sort of real important conversations with people in real life.
+
+[24:18] My show, I I kind of describe it as an audio trade magazine. I learned a ton from the guests every week, whether it's it's restaurants, bars, all the hosts at Heritage all come from different perspectives. Everyone should be listening to this if you're interested in conservation and practical approach to renewable food sources. You know, not this big industry. Whether it's history, uh laws, social policies of food.
+
+[24:45] I think people now take food seriously, and hopefully what's on their plate will become something very special. And I feel that podcasting has a future. Giving people information in a format they can really use on the go. We need your support to keep these conversations going. To donate, visit heritageradio network.org backslash donate.
+
+[25:08] We need your support. Give us your support. Right? Yeah, that was it. Support.
+
+[25:13] That's uh you don't talk like that though. See it? Like you can never judge what someone actually sounds like based on my invitation. Because that's my like 80-year-old lady from like the outer boroughs. And your Jack Insley impression.
+
+[25:23] Yeah, well, I don't know. I just like no, it's like I don't know. I don't know. No, my normal Jack impression is using my normal voice. I don't really have a you.
+
+[25:30] I don't have like you you sound normal to me, so I don't have like a real impression for you. You know, well, it's giving Tuesday, so if any cooking issues listeners want to donate, um that would be awesome. Show your support if you like the show. Is tomorrow giving Wednesday? No, actually, Nick decided what tomorrow was.
+
+[25:46] What's tomorrow? You can't say it. I can't say it. Oh, can't say it on the radio. It's S E Wednesday.
+
+[25:52] SA Wednesday? No, S not SA. Yes. We can come up with another word, maybe dash Y Wednesday. I don't know.
+
+[25:59] I don't even. I'm too uh uh you'll tell me afterwards. Okay. By the way, I know what I forgot to talk about, people. Uh WD50 closed.
+
+[26:07] I went on Sunday to the final uh the final meal, and they had like a family meal party yesterday. They already taken down the neon sign, end of an era. End. Yeah. Sad.
+
+[26:19] But he's ending on a high like at first. I was like, you know, because I, you know, I talked to some people about it. I was like, oh well, he's ending on a really high note. There's no better reason to have to end a restaurant than they're gonna knock the building down and they paid you, you know, money to get out. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:30] They're like, they paid you a bunch of money to give up a successful business so they could knock the building down and build like an ugly, stupid high-rise, right? It's about the best way to leave a restaurant. Uh, you know, and uh, but still, when you're there and then you were like, oh my god, it's a restaurant, like all these people now need to hide have find new jobs. I spoke to a lot of people, and like, you know, I think a lot of the folks there have uh you know found other good places to go. But you know, I I hope they all have wish wish everyone from WD uh good feature.
+
+[27:00] Um great restaurant, end of an era. Um okay. Hello, Dave and Hammer, emailing you live from Putin's new Byzantium, Moscow, Russia. Do you do they have like like imagine like uh they should have announcing like that over there, do they? I don't know.
+
+[27:14] I'm not gonna do it in my Russian accent though. I have an okay fake Russian accent. Anyway, uh congrats on the new well, he's not the guy's writing's not Russian though. Uh he's English. Anyway, uh 80s name.
+
+[27:25] Uh, congratulations on the book. As I read it, I can hear Dave's disembodied voice in my head, which worries this Englishman. Yeah, right. It worries Nick too. Nick's got like a like a Dave voice face, which is similar to Nastasia's vegan face on right now.
+
+[27:37] You've reignated my reignited my need for a fuse. That's centerfuge to those of you not in the know. On this post below, you mentioned that the size of the Zhuan three-liter rotor affects the G's pulled versus the lighter champion E-34. So the E34, I thought it was an E33, but maybe it's E34 now. You know, things get better.
+
+[27:54] So the uh the the deal is both of them uh I think actually the Arjouan goes at around 4,000 RPM, and the little guy goes at like 3,000 and change because it's run off of an induction motor, and that's just the speed that it runs. Um so here's the deal. Like uh you can't, the rotor size does make a difference. Well, let me finish your question. Uh, however, how can I or where can I uh look up and work out what a 1.2 liter 4,000 RPM Juan bench top uh fuge does.
+
+[28:22] Is there a simple equation between mass uh RPM and time that I need to know? Uh well, mass doesn't matter. Mass doesn't matter. Mass irrelevant. The only things you need to know are the radius of your rotor and the speed at which the rotor goes in RPM.
+
+[28:35] And yeah, you look up, uh just look up on the Wikipedia RCF. That's uh R like Richard C like C F like F. Uh and it stands for relative centrifugal force. And uh basically you need to know the mean rotor, whatever they're gonna take is the rotor uh diameter or radius, depending you have to look at it, uh usually in millimeters, and then the speed in RPMs, and it'll calculate the relative centrifugal force for you. And there's c there's like JavaScript calculators all over everywhere because this is stuff that people have to do every day.
+
+[29:02] So then you just need to know the radius of your rotor, which is easily findable on any one of the websites and the thing. But here's what I'm here to tell you. Well for a given bucket, for a given rotor, uh the speed of the centrifuge is super important because it's the number of G's that are going to determine what the separating power of the centrifuge is. However, it's not the only number that's important. So on a spinning bucket rotor, right, you need a relative, which is what we have with the with the with the Zhuan with the big one that I use.
+
+[29:33] You need a relatively high number of G's, not to clarify, right? Uh the you need a relatively high number of G's to compact all of the crap into the bottom of the bucket and have it so that when the center fuge uh stops, it doesn't refloat up back into the stuff. That's what you need all the extra G's for over the first like, you know, 2,000, right? The extra 2,000 G's that you need in that are really just to smash the pellet tough so that it doesn't resuspend when you spin down. And that's also why you need to spin it for like 10-15 minutes and not for five minutes, because the stuff is really clear inside of like three to five minutes, but it's just not densely packed in the bottom.
+
+[30:12] Now, uh, like how well it packs is dependent upon uh a couple of things. One is uh the the you know the speed of the centrifuge, the number the amount of G forces it has, but also how far the pellets need to tra the particles need to travel through the liquid before they smash. And for a spinning bucket rotor, they need to travel a relatively long distance, and they're getting forced directly into a big flat plate, so they need a relatively large amount of force to smash them down into a pellet, into a puck. Uh in a in a fixed angle rotor where they where the sides of the rotor are at an angle and the liquid hits them, and then the pellet the the particles hit the sides and then slide down. Those things kind of grind the particles into a pellet faster, and so they can work with uh lower G's.
+
+[30:56] So a fixed angle rotor is going to give you easier clarification at lower G's than a swinging bucket, but the swinging buckets typically gonna have a higher uh capacity. Does that make any sense? Yeah, hope that helps. Uh uh iPhone thinks I want to take a picture instead of uh helping you guys with your questions. It's wrong.
+
+[31:15] It's wrong. Um okay, that that's it for this. We're gonna go on to last week's questions, uh, which I'm gonna uh call up. You uh you you want to say anything, Nick, while I'm looking up last week's questions? You the answer better be yes, or I'm gonna I'm going to do terrible things to your pizza.
+
+[31:31] Just terrible things. Nothing. You're a bad person. You're never invited on the radio program again. Uh never.
+
+[31:39] Never. Uh okay. So uh the last question we asked was was uh the pretzel one, right? We did we did we talked about tempeh last week? Or two weeks ago?
+
+[31:51] Yeah, yeah, we did. All right. Uh and we talked about uh can man maybe we got maybe we got everything. I doubt it. No, it's like we mean I know we missed a whole bunch.
+
+[32:02] Oh, I know what happened. They never made it onto Dropbox. I had to send them into the uh into the into the email thing. Hmm. Hmm.
+
+[32:11] All right. All right, people. I apologize. And since Nick is such a low quality human being. You know what?
+
+[32:17] Before we came on, when I came in late because of my bike, he thinks it's freaking hilarious. I'm gonna hit him with I'm gonna hit him with a lead pipe as soon as this is over. But uh he was telling all kinds of stories back from the uh yeah, yeah. All kinds of stories about like, you know, uh me hitting him with lead pipes, how much I could hit him wish I could hit him with a lead pipe. Um here we go.
+
+[32:42] Uh okay, so we got the lemon sorbet question, and we got the ramen, we got the salt, we got the tempeh. We did not get to freezing, right? Did we? Did we talk about freezing? Depends on what it is about to gin and juice with the freezing?
+
+[32:57] No. Okay. Uh another Dave here from the UK. Love your show. Only stumbled across it a few months ago and wish I'd found it years ago.
+
+[33:03] I've been working through the archives, uh, and they make great listening whilst I'm pottering about in the kitchen. Pottering. I never heard that in a long time. What do you think, Steves? You pro?
+
+[33:11] No. Pro not pro pottering? No. Puttering. I'm sure whilst he's puttering and well no, maybe it's in the UK.
+
+[33:18] I don't know. Maybe you potter in the UK. Maybe you potter. I don't know. I don't spend much time over there.
+
+[33:24] Uh I've already heard a ton of useful information, but he spells the English ton. Are you for the English ton? Two Ns and an E? No. No?
+
+[33:32] No. Of useful information from listening to you, which inspires me to try new things in the kitchen. I feel I've learned so much that I thought I'd uh better do the decent thing and help support the show. So I signed up and became a Heritage Radio Network member the other week. Keep up the good work.
+
+[33:45] Sweet. This is from Dave W. Um I have a quick question. I bought your book and started off by making a gin and juice. I wrote a blog post about it.
+
+[33:53] I saw that actually. You say what you obviously saw is you made a comment on it. Thank you. So the agar clarification process for the grapefruit is very straightforward and works very well, but it takes about three days. That's not really helpful if you suddenly have an urge for a spontaneous cocktail.
+
+[34:04] I was wondering if I can make up a larger batch of clarified juice and freeze it in smaller portions, enough for a couple of drinks. How well would it keep in the freezer? Would it lose anything over time? It's already been frozen once during the process, so I figure it's worth trying. I just wondered if you had an opinion.
+
+[34:17] Thanks, Dave W. Uh, yeah, you could totally freeze it. So grapefruit juice freezes quite well. Uh clarified grapefruit juice freezes quite well. Uh clarified apple juice freezes quite well.
+
+[34:26] Uh clarified uh lime and lemon juice, no, not so much. Uh they still taste like poison. Not as much. You know, I did a study uh of uh pre mixed drinks that were frozen for a long time versus kept at room temperature, and the room temperature ones did taste more poisonous with the lemon and lime juice in them than the one in the freezer, but uh the one in the freezer still tasted poisonous to me. And you know what I'm saying when I'm saying poisonous, right?
+
+[34:51] Like not actually like poison, but you know that like poisonous taste, that detergent, poisonous, like real lemon, like fake, like crap hole, like 70s supermarket flavor. Familiar with it? You might know it from such things as like the skinny like margarita, that skinny, like lady margarita, like her. That tastes like poison to me. You ever had one of those things?
+
+[35:11] Poisonous. It tastes poisonous, right? Why have you had one of those? I've done events where it's there and then they made remember we went to an event and they made your drink and they used like stuff like that? Yeah, oh my god.
+
+[35:23] No, remember when we threw it away and we had to go get new? And I've had also, I was I remember we were at one of these shows, I think it was called the Fancy Food Show. I think it was that one in in uh in Javits, and this person's like, I make I make you know frozen lime juice, concentrate lime juice. And I was like, I hate it. He's like, No, ours is really good.
+
+[35:41] I'm like, but buddy, I hate it. Like, like he's like, No, try it. I'm like, okay. And the best I could give him was it's not as terrible as the rest of the poisonous stuff that I'm used to tasting. Which is true.
+
+[35:52] Which is true. Actually, this is strange. You know how I think lemoncello tastes poisonous. I actually had uh a really a good lemoncello the other day. Nice.
+
+[36:00] I'm gonna be using a Tales of the Cocktail, it's at the bar. Do you like lemoncello? Depends if it's really good. Yeah. Yeah, doesn't most of it taste like poison?
+
+[36:07] Like detergent, like pledge. Nick feels the same way. What about Jack? You lemon cello guy? Yeah, it's either that pledgy taste or like too sweet.
+
+[36:14] It's hard to find in between. I like it when it's got both the lemon pledge flavor and the too sweet. Yeah. That's that's the best. That's the best.
+
+[36:22] Uh anyways, uh I don't know what the hell I was talking about. So yeah, those things taste like poison. So don't do that. But grapefruit juice, all that stuff is fine. Uh what I would do is if you're gonna freeze it, there's a couple ways to freeze it.
+
+[36:34] Uh Ziploc bag, freezer ziploc bags. If you uh put like however much you want and then lay them flat on uh, you know, lay them like close them like you were gonna bag uh a steak for a low temp, put your finger in it and then like let the air out slowly on a flat counter, pinch it at the end so there's no air bubbles in it, and then uh just put them on a sheet tray in your freezer until they freeze in a flat configuration. That's the best way. And then you can like stack a lot of them in the freezer, you don't have to worry about it, and they freeze relatively quickly, and because they're flat, they unfreeze relatively quickly, which is also good. Uh and if you're in a good Ziploc bag like that, you can throw it into a pan of water and just run warm water on it and thaw it out without like overheating or anything super quickly.
+
+[37:17] If you freeze it in core containers, it takes forever for them to thaw out, and it's a huge pain in the butt. Uh and plus also when you drop a core can when you drop a frozen core container, it cracks. And there's always like a it'll here's what always happens. You pull it out of the freezer, you drop it a little bit, or it cracks, or someone throws something into the freezer and it cracks the core container, you pull the core container out, you don't know it's cracked until it starts thawing and the stuff starts leaking out all over. Here's the real problem with that.
+
+[37:41] Not only that, but the stuff that thaws out first is all the sugar and flavor, and so all the sugar and flavor leach out, and you're left with a crappy ice cube, and then you're still gonna try and use it for a drink because it's all you've got and you feel bad because you've wasted all this product, you spend all this time on. So, what I'm telling you is don't use the core container. Uh another alternative, if you know you're only gonna make a really like couple couple of drinks at a time, it's not as ideal from a storage standpoint, but you freeze the stuff down in ice cube trays, they're never gonna get as firm as a real ice cube because of the sugar and whatnot. But then pop them, don't leave them in the ice cube trays, that's a rookie move, pop them out of the ice cube trays, put them in a ziploc container in the fridge, and then you can pull them out cube by cube. Just make sure you measure beforehand the volume of your ice cube trays so you know how much juice is is in each cube, and you'll find that if you're decent at it, like your your cubes are gonna be pretty accurate to within like you know, way less than a quarter of an ounce per cube, and so you'll be able to accurately judge how much juice you're gonna add just by throwing certain number of cubes in.
+
+[38:38] Then you can do stuff like the juice shake from the book. Anyway, whatever. What if he wants to use a liter container? Instead instead of a because he's English? Hearty Hardy.
+
+[38:44] Actually, in fact, you know, I found out that most people over the world don't have core containers. Like we're like, like even when I say most people all over the world, like San Francisco doesn't use core containers. They find them to be ungreen. That's a lie. Well, maybe it in Kanto they used them, but how many restaurants did you go to?
+
+[39:00] Did you like your friends you went to, and you're like, where's the core container? And they're like, what is that? Is it green and made of bamboo? Right? Come on now.
+
+[39:06] We worked a bunch of events at Stas in San Francisco, and we can never get freaking core containers over there. I think they're green because you use them over and over and over again. I've had the same core containers for years. Do you do you find them to be bad for the environment? If you don't throw them away.
+
+[39:21] Yeah, they're fine. They're fine, right? Yeah. Alright, anyways. Uh liter containers.
+
+[39:26] So they don't have a ton with a two ends in an E. So what about the what what what what size Ziploc bags do they have over there? A four-liter Ziploc? Yeah. Instead of a gallon?
+
+[39:36] A liter a liter bag. Yeah, but what like a gallon bag is the one we use. That's the baller size. So, like what like what are those? Four liters?
+
+[39:44] A two-liter bag? Four-liter bag? What do they have? We don't even have a two-liter bag here. I don't know.
+
+[39:52] Okay. Uh did we do the thing on clarification? No, I don't think so. Jesper called in about clarification. I know you have a backlog already, which I heard in the last episode had some questions in regards to the liquid intelligence book, which I've had for three weeks and in uh three weeks and enjoy, so now like five weeks.
+
+[40:06] Uh but I'll anyway push uh push you some more uh questions into the FIFO list. I understand there's some known typos. Alright, we took care of this one. I'm not gonna get into that one again. Not gonna get into that again.
+
+[40:17] Not gonna get into it. Not gonna happen. Oh, Stas, you're so you're so evil. You know, Stas won't read the book, which I don't blame her, by the way, because she has to work with me every day. But here's what she said.
+
+[40:28] I don't even consider it a book. I actually used it on Sunday as a separator. A separator of what? Between two hot things to carry the sun. Wow.
+
+[40:40] Wow. Yeah. She can't even look at it as a book. It's like an object. It does contain words.
+
+[40:46] Like she like will admit that, that like there are words. So, you know. My name's in the phone book. Uh okay. My main question, which I guess you may be tired of, is on the topic of clarifying lime juice.
+
+[40:59] I followed the steps in the book, but could not identify any noticeable differences between the steps uh uh that that you're doing, I guess, apart from the last one after uh I ran the centrifuge. My question. By the way, so Mike Lime Clarification, the way it works in the center fuge is you you juice the limes, you add uh enzyme, and you add something called kesel salt to it, which is suspended silicosol. You wait fifteen, and what that's doing is the the the um the enzyme is breaking down the pectin. It's called pectinic ul pectin's ultra spl, but you can't use it by itself because the lime juice is too acidic.
+
+[41:30] So at the same time you add kesel salt, which is a charged uh silicosol. It attracts the charged particles in it, which a lot of the turbid particles are, most of them are. Almost all of them are attracts it to it. Nick was trying to say that I'm a turbid particle, which is true. Uh attracts it to it, then you add the uh then you wait 15 minutes for that reaction, then you add the keysel saw uh the chitosan, which is the opposite charge, and it bloms them together again, wait 15 minutes, add the Keselsaw again, re-glom and spin because that's what it is.
+
+[41:58] Anyway, uh after you add the Keselsaw the second time, so this is the last step. Uh, how long should you wait prior to running the fuse? 15 minutes in the previous steps? That I'm adding that question. In the previous steps?
+
+[42:09] Uh, or can you go ahead and run the fuse immediately as implicitly implied in the book? You can pretty much run it immediately. Like, like you know, I would wait a couple minutes, but you can pretty much run it right away. My centrifuge has cooling. What temperature do you recommend when spinning?
+
+[42:14] Run it as cold as you can, but not without freezing it. Like I run it, run it at like run it at like, you know, zero or like set four. I can think we keep ours at like four. When it's when the when the refrigerator is working, that is, we keep it at four. Uh should the final clarified juice, apart from being transparent, also be colorless?
+
+[42:36] No. No. No. No. Clarified strawberry juice is bright red, thank God.
+
+[42:41] Imagine if like your strawberry remember, so like the the Rokas, right? Like Juan Roca, Jordi Roca, those guys and El Calar Can Roca, like uh, they used to do clear desserts where they would actually rotovap things and make them colorless because they were doing distillation. Distillation is the only real way, I mean, other than like, you know, stripping color with charcoal to make something, because that's how they do it with uh rum, by the way. You know, they age rum and then they strip the color out with uh charcoal. Does it don't care?
+
+[43:08] Uh the uh so usually like that's the only way to get rid of color. So like remember that clear is different from colorless. So like strawberry juice, if you can read a newspaper through it, it's clarified. Uh but the newsprint's not necessarily gonna mean it's not necessarily gonna look white. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:26] It's gonna it's gonna look like the color. So lime juice should be kind of like a very light green. Very light green. Anyway, uh, thanks for the program and support. Jesper from Sweden.
+
+[43:38] Uh okay, and we have some more cocktail questions. Uh first, well, we're what? Just so you know, we're running out of time. Uh uh. Okay, so we will get to the uh Punch regency Punch question on the next time.
+
+[43:54] I have a whole bunch on Regency Punch. So whoever wrote in uh on fat washing and Regency Punch, I think it's BJD. We'll get to you next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[44:19] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Rackiton opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics, pet supplies, kids' stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is with Rackaton, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental.
+
+[0:20] Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, Booking.com, Viator, Verbo, Hotels.com, IHG, and more. Save on cruises, vacation packages, and experiences as well. And don't worry, cash back can be earned on top of your credit card points and with many loyalty programs. Because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead.
+
+[0:43] Take a trip. Find that perfect hotel. Book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain. Wherever you want to go, go with Rackaton. Join today for free.
+
+[0:53] Go to Rackiton.com or get the app. That's R A K-U-T-E-N. Today's program is brought to you by Brooklyn Slate Company, a manufacturer of slate cheese boards, coasters, and other fine items. For more information, visit Brooklyn Slate.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio.
+
+[1:12] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn! At Roberta's Pizzeria, joined as usual with Nastasia.
+
+[1:40] The Hammer Lopez is used and Jack in the engineering booth. Yes. We're just running with the old school crew right now. Old school. Old school crew.
+
+[1:48] Streamlined. Yeah. Call in your questions to a 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Uh and uh Jack's told me to read this at the beginning because we have an auction.
+
+[1:59] It's gone live. Join uh me, Dave Arnold, and the Hammer are my co-host, Nastasia Lopez and the Heritage Radio Network executive producer Jack Insley. All three of us in the same place at the same time, join us in the studio as a special guest on an episode of Cooking Issues, the weekly radio show on the latest innovative techniques, equipment, and ingredients in the food world. Well, presumably they know what show it is, because they're listening to it. If not, if you somehow tuned in here by mistake, I am truly sorry.
+
+[2:30] Uh a I I'm not gonna read this about myself, Jack. You have to read this. I'm not gonna read a crap about myself. That's crazy. That's what I wanted to see what would happen.
+
+[2:37] Yeah, I'm not gonna read that like you know, all right. You read this crap, Jack. Well, it's it's basically uh it's on charitybuzz.com if you search Heritage Radio Network, and uh as as you may have gathered, you get a chance to sit in on the show, be a guest on the show. We will take you to lunch here at Roberta's, the the famous lunch that Dave always enjoys after his show. Now, listen, just so you guys know, the lunch that we normally get, Stas and I, when we're here, like what we get is she gets a lemonade, I get a Dai Coke, because I don't think they have seltzer, otherwise I'll get Seltsair.
+
+[3:06] They have seltzer. They have seltzer. I like Seltzer better. Anyway, like she gets a lemonade, I will now be getting a seltzer. We get a pizza and a salad.
+
+[3:14] That's what happens. Uh right, but this lunch would be, you know. Yeah, this is like more of this is more tricked out, right? Yeah, yeah. This is all the fireworks.
+
+[3:21] Yeah, yeah. And if you are lucky, if you are lucky, maybe, maybe Santa's little hipster will be your waiter. But we can't guarantee that as part of the maybe Indy Jesus would be making a return surprise visit. I don't know. Do you think we can get an DC Stas sees him in Manhattan now all the time.
+
+[3:38] Resurrection. Oh my god, Indy Jesus Christ. You're gonna get me in some big big trouble. Uh yeah, so anyway, and then uh well, we're gonna go, you might have to sit and listen to a bar meeting for a while, or else you can entertain yourselves for a couple of hours while I do real business, and then you can join us at five for a couple of drinks when Booker and Dax opens up and uh we'll hang out. I'm sure Nastasia will make fun of me, and you you get to see uh behind the scenes how she daily attempts to drive me banana ramas.
+
+[4:06] If you're lucky, Nastasia will make fun of you also. Well, it depends. Listen, yeah, like she's not kidding. You really have to kind of watch your step because she'll just she'll just like razor blade you without you even not physical razor blade. I mean, she's not you know that won't happen.
+
+[4:19] That won't happen. She's not a physically violent person, right, Stas? She's giving me the mezzo mezzo hands. She knows she gave the mezzo mezzo hands. She's like, you know, would it be fair to say that to a random person you would not be violent?
+
+[4:31] Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:33] Yeah. We'll just leave it at that. Speaking of, I know that this is supposed to be a cooking related st uh show, but I have to bring up uh uh a story of holiday cheer at at the beginning. And I asked Nastasia's permission on this, so I'm not talking out out of school here. Nastasia, I'm not gonna say she stole her Christmas tree this year, because that would be true.
+
+[4:54] But like she like right on the border, you want to tell this story, Stas? Uh no, you do it. The quick way that you did at the bar, that was good. Oh, okay. So for those of you that have never been to New York City, here's the way it works.
+
+[5:04] People like from Canada or Minnesota, right? Who I don't know what the hell they do the rest of the year. Do you have any idea? No. They pile they they rent a flatbed truck and they pile it full of trees from where the trees grow, way up north.
+
+[5:17] And then they're basically like circus carnies for Christmas trees. No offense if you this is what you do for a living. And then they drive down, and for the holiday season, they pretty much camp out in front of like some sort of hurricane fence or parking lot somewhere, and they just have all their trees leaning against the fence, right? Because we can't just go to Home Depot or Lowe's or like standard Christmas tree operations here in New York, like nurseries and this kind of stuff. You can't do it, right?
+
+[5:42] And there's a host of these guys that totally overcharge. So Stas goes to this guy in the in Hell's Kitchen, which is you know where she lives, and it's in a parking lot. She walks up, she goes, talks to the parking lot. Where the hell's the guy? Where the hell is the guy?
+
+[5:55] I want to get a Christmas tree. Because listen, when you're gonna buy a Christmas tree in New York, you're set up to buy a Christmas tree. You're not like I could buy it now or I could buy it later. You're like, you're gonna go out, you're gonna buy the freaking tree. It's a huge hassle.
+
+[6:06] You're either gonna pay your your like someone or a friend or something, you're gonna cart a freaking tree home on your shoulders, and you're gonna lug it, and Stas now has an elevator, but she still has like those memories of of like and I do as well of trucking those trees up the stairs and down the stairs on the shoulder with people looking and laughing. This is what New York Christmas trees are like happy freaking holidays. So you don't go out unless you're gonna get the tree. So she's like, Where's the freaking guy? And the parking lot tenant's like, hey, hey, I don't know.
+
+[6:34] Just you know, he's like, Yeah, he's in a car over there or something. I don't know, just shake a tree, he'll come. So Stas goes over. She starts, you know, she's just not even probably looking at the tree. She's probably giving it like the you know her irritated, bored face, and just starts shaking this random tree.
+
+[6:48] No guy. She looks over at the parking lot tenant, guy goes, Meh, you know what it doesn't meh. And so she starts shaking the tree even harder, like this anger shake. I don't know if you can feel it in my voice, the anger shake of the tree. Nothing.
+
+[7:00] So then she picks the tree up and she starts doing the where you like hammer the tree on the ground and kind of see how it shakes out. You know what I mean? Nothing, not a zip. So she's like, hey, hey, hey, boom, walks away with it. She's like, I'm gonna get 10 feet away.
+
+[7:15] The guy's gonna be like come out of his car. Nothing. She, so like one block later, two blocks later, three blocks later. Home. A home, tree.
+
+[7:23] Wow. Now they have a sign on those trees when I walked here that says, You're being watched. Uh there's a camera surveillance on you. Call this number if you want a tree. Oh, come on.
+
+[7:35] That is not that is not. I gotta put this one on them, you know? Yeah. Well, yes and no. I mean, Stas did steal a Christmas tree.
+
+[7:45] Right. But I had $42 pocket. Miracle on 41st Street. Hey, listen, listen, here's the thing, right? She like, she thinks that because she had the money in her pocket to pay, that she didn't steal it.
+
+[7:58] Yeah, I had every intention of paying. Yeah. But I was going there. You know what you should do? You should pin a 20 on one of the trees and walk away.
+
+[8:09] Somebody's gonna see that on the video tape. Yeah, it's on the video. It's a pizza crap. So you think the whole thing's like a big lie. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:20] There's no And I must not have been the only one. That's all they would have sign on the other. Clearly, if the guy f first of all, now Nastasia to make herself feel better. Nastasia makers it's like, I think he stole those trees anyway. No, Mark said that.
+
+[8:33] Oh, all right. Well, he's just trying to make it feel better. Whoa! I have no problem, by the way, someone stealing a stolen tree. That's fair.
+
+[8:42] Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Right? But uh yeah, you have no evidence that that tree is stolen, just that the guy's an idiot.
+
+[8:48] You have very, very strong evidence that the guy is uh like either an idiot or he's unprepared. Right. Here's the thing, right? Let's see And there's no tree stump cutter air area. Oh, yeah, no, weak, weak.
+
+[8:58] No bailer, no tree stump thing. Here's the thing, right? Like either you have to have like a bladder of steel to do this job, or you have to have a helper that checks in on you once every two, three hours so you can go relieve yourself. You know, I don't care if you're cold, if you're bored, this is your job. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:13] Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, whatever. It's like the crossing guard has to stand in the street because if the kid gets run over when this person's not in the crossing lane, then that you know, it doesn't matter that you need it to pee. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:23] You're guarding the trees. That's your job, that's your livelihood. And and considering how bad this presumably fellow, most of these people are are dudes. By the way, there are occasionally women tree sellers. I had one at Lowe's, so she was quite good.
+
+[9:35] Uh and uh because I got mine at Lowe's and carry my heavy, heavy tree home on the subway like uh dingus. Anyway, the um my car someone. My point being that it's kind of, you know, uh it couldn't have just been one tree because I don't think this guy has such an accurate inventory if he just leaves the stuff lying around 43rd Street. Right. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[9:54] Mm-hmm. Yeah, all right. Well, if you want to steal Christmas trees with Nastasia, head to charity buzz.com and just you know Is that thing gonna be over in time for her to steal a tree? I don't know. It's like next year, right?
+
+[10:06] What, the auction? No, the the getting of the prize. Oh yeah. Well, yeah, sure. There'll be no more trees.
+
+[10:11] We'll have to get something else. You know what though? She'll give you tips, tips and pointers from next year on how to steal various various things that are supposed to be symbols of giving and love and compassion. So there's 14 days on this, so uh listeners, you know, get in there. Yeah.
+
+[10:26] All right. Now before I start in, uh uh I'm gonna do a couple of rants. I get very angry. I read reviews of things, and not just my own book, by the way. Other people's books, other people's restaurants, and I get like virulently angry at people's reviews.
+
+[10:39] So I'm gonna read the first uh a couple of the reviews I got, like kind of takes me off a little bit. I got one review on liquid Intelligence that pissed me off, and so I'm gonna read it. Uh but I'm first gonna read uh a review of Death and Company's book because like we often get reviewed at the same time, because they came out roughly similar time, and it turns out they're both about cocktails. So anyway, this is by Craig, who is not smart enough to have his own last name on Amazon. Uh and he wrote this review of uh of Death Co.'s book.
+
+[11:04] One star. First of all, idiot. Why would you get idiot? Why would you give Death Co's book one star? Idiot.
+
+[11:10] And then here's what he wrote. I think this I'm this is Craig's voice now. He sounds a lot like me. I think it is important for everyone considering purchasing this book to understand that the authors completely omit vodka from the book. No drink recipes with vodka.
+
+[11:27] It's like having the definitive book on fashion and omitting the color black. Oh man. First of all, Death Co. never said, right? The authors never said, hey, you know what I'm gonna give you?
+
+[11:39] I'm gonna give you the definitive all-time book on cocktails. No, it's the definitive book on Death Co's cocktails, and what Death Co. thinks about cocktails, and guess what, buddy? They don't serve the vodka the thing. And now if you had bought, like, you know, like Mr.
+
+[11:53] Boston's guide to like how to make every cocktail in the world, and it wasn't like shellacked with vodka recipes, you'd have a point. But as is, no freaking point. What do you think about this, Jack? It's irritating, right? That's crazy.
+
+[12:05] A person's an idiot. And yet you like, you know, that that review has been sticking in my craw for a long time. And but yet you don't have a way to erase it. Like this idiot is sitting there knocking on on their on their totals. Like, thank God it doesn't knock it a lot, but whatever.
+
+[12:20] Irritating. That's why you have to read the one-star reviews. You know? You have to read all of it, but like the thing is like, how is it like that they learn to type? How can they tie their shoes if they're that stupid?
+
+[12:32] Now here's one from my book, Liquid Intelligence. Three stars, which is not horrible. I don't like it. I mean, I don't like it. Um, it pisses me off, to be honest, but whatever.
+
+[12:40] By Robert Boyle, not the famous dead scientist, right? Uh Robert Boyle, here's what he wrote. I swear to God, this is what this is what it said. A little too, first of all, first of all, one-o in two. A little to deep.
+
+[12:55] One-o, huh? Yeah. Wow. Deep, not really a verb here. I think what they meant is too too deep as in T-O-O-D.
+
+[13:01] Whatever. A little to deep. Not many home micxologists will be buying liquid nitro for their guests, no apostrophe drinks. Now, here here's my point. First of all, forget the grammar.
+
+[13:17] Don't care. You know what I mean? Don't care about that. Because if they had said nice things, I would have forgiven their grammar. For all I know, even though his name sounds as English speaking as the day is long, the guy's, you know, native language could be some like you know completely different language.
+
+[13:29] I don't know. You know what I mean? So I don't judge people's like, you know, writing skills on this. However, what they're saying is is that I gave them too much freaking information in the book. I bend over backwards in the book, telling everyone how they can do all of these techniques and ideas without the fancy equipment if they want to.
+
+[13:45] And then I also tell them how to do the fancy stuff if they want to, and I'm getting hammered on it. To me, I was telling Stas before, it's the equivalent of saying, you know what? You know what? This encyclopedia Britannica kind of sucks. Why do they have this section on trigonometry?
+
+[13:59] I'm never gonna read it. They could have gotten rid of all those pages, and these this freaking encyclopedia would not have taken so much room on my shelf. Jerk. Anyway, whatever. That's my rant.
+
+[14:08] We should just pick, like, not my book in general, but like other people's like, we should pick some bad reviews and like rank on the reviewers every once in a while. Because it just it just bugs me that people can write. You know, here's the thing. Most people I think that write reviews like this have probably never done a damn thing that they've put out there for other people to enjoy. This is why I have problems with it, not problems with because I'm friends with a lot of critics, but the problem my problem with criticism in general, uh, whether it's like Yelp or whatever, is that most of the people who are making criticisms, and it can be valid or not, is just that they don't they wouldn't do it if what they did for a living was try to put something out there for someone else to enjoy.
+
+[14:48] You know what I mean? And then all of a sudden get smacked back on stuff like you wouldn't take it so lightly. If you actually wrote books or had a bar, or you know, did anything like that, you made clothes, whatever. You would not write flip reviews of other people's work. You would take it seriously, wouldn't you, Stas?
+
+[15:08] Yeah. Whatever. Speaking of beautiful day here in New York, huh? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:13] You know what? It's rainy, it's raining. It's not the rain. The rain's not so bad. It's the freaking wind.
+
+[15:17] But guess what? Booker and Dax has a buyout, so it's a perfect night for a buyout. Because we're not gonna have any foot traffic anyway. Awesome. Awesome.
+
+[15:25] Anyway, Jack, now that we've uh done the uh preliminaries. Yes, uh oh Stas, we have a contest. You want to announce that or no? You're not gonna announce that? Yeah, we're having people send in their cool Sears all tricks, techniques, practices, application videos.
+
+[15:40] Um send it to Sears all at Booker and Dax.com. We're gonna choose ten. The ten will all get a burnsomatic TS TS 8,000, and then the winner will get a Sears All signed by Dave. Lock signed by Dave. Do the people who get the TS8000 also get another Sears all or just a torch?
+
+[15:56] Just the torch. Okay, so every like everyone who wins is gonna get a TS8000, and then one of them's gonna get an additional Sears All on top of the 8W. You sounded really excited. I'm kidding. I can't wait to see your videos.
+
+[16:08] Jack, did you believe her excitement? I did, yeah. I bought it. Yeah? You bought it?
+
+[16:13] I'm I'm so excited. So we're looking for, look, here's the the basic deal. We know what we use it for, but like every day, you know, I have like different things that I come up with it for because it's sitting there all the time in my house. So I use it for different things. So we're looking for new things that we haven't thought of or tips and tricks that we can put videos up.
+
+[16:31] And we're looking to steal your good ideas, and in return, we will give you a sweet new Burns Matic TSA. And by the way, donated by Burnsmatic. Yeah. Yeah. Because they they they're friendly with us.
+
+[16:42] They're they're good people. Uh okay. Got some questions in. Uh BJD wrote in a while ago, and I didn't get this. Uh, first of all, searching a cooking issue site for an email address, and I love that I missed this because now I get to smack it back on Stas.
+
+[16:56] Stas used to have a little blog called uh well, little in the technical sense. It's about being little. Five foot kitchen. Long time ago. Long time ago.
+
+[17:05] Uh where she was like, you know, sh she had this like tiny, tiny, apparently five feet long kitchen where she would cook and she would like, you know, try to, you know, have like meals for like I don't know, 20 people or something out of this five. That was the that was the the conceit of the blog. Correct? Okay. First, while searching the cooking issue site for an email address, I stumbled across five foot kitchen, and it appears now to be a porn site.
+
+[17:29] Not judging, but in case it's a mistake, I thought I'd let you know. Not a mistake. Wow. Wow. So it's not five foot kitchen dot wordpress.com?
+
+[17:40] I don't know what it I mean, it used to be. Oh, really? It got taken over, I guess, of the porn site, but it's not really an appropriate foreign title. I mean, like, there's no like five, not a particularly porny number. Oh, no.
+
+[17:57] Yeah, it's still there. All right. Well, it must have gotten temporarily taken over, but I I like that idea. Now, uh the onto the questions. Does proof affect the flavor extraction while fat washing?
+
+[18:09] I believe PDT uses four roses yellow label. If I use bonded bourbon ice, something with higher proof than the four roses yellow, will I pull out more bacon flavor? Okay, that's an excellent question. Uh I would say that the proof most definitely affects uh the flavor you get with fat washing. Now you gotta remember PDT is using uh Benton's bacon fat, and Benton's is the smokiest damn bacon in in that I've ever had.
+
+[18:36] It's I mean like I can't say, you know, whether they're or not smokier. It is by far, however, the smokiest bacon I've ever had. So uh they don't necessarily need to get the maximum amount of extraction out. So they're just picking a whiskey that they like. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:52] And so I think in certain situations, like uh at the bar, for some reason, I don't know, God knows why, uh, they they wanted to make uh uh a booker and dacks smearing off ice so that they could ice some bartender at some event in some other city, right? But they want to do it booker and dact style. So they said to me, hey Dave, hey Dave, we want to make a smearing off ice style thing. What are we gonna do? Now the key thing with the smearing off ice, right, is it I mean, I think that's not clear, right?
+
+[19:17] It's white, it's milky, yeah? And y yeah, the way to do that is to put citrus oils in, but they didn't want to get citrus oils and buy it and do all that stuff, so what I told them to do was take super high proof. We use stuff called uh industry standard technical reserve, which is ninety-five five, soak a bunch of citrus peels in it, that's gonna extract the oil. Then you're gonna make a a water base that you're going to put uh some uh gum arabic into, then you're gonna add the two together, it's gonna loosh out, and then when it looses out, you're gonna get a smearing off ice colored thing, which is what they did, and it worked. Now here's the thing, right?
+
+[19:48] So for that, I needed very high proof. Why? Because I really wanted it to loosh, so I was sucking a lot of stuff out, right? Now, let's say you weren't, or you didn't want it to loosh, or you had a different set of criteria, then you know that high proof would be a detriment because it would cause uh looshing when you diluted your drink down. Um so yeah, you'll probably extract more, but more isn't even the right way.
+
+[20:12] Probably different uh different ratios of uh flavors will come out and just different overall things. So I don't think there's a better or a worse. I think there's just kind of what you like. What do you think? Good.
+
+[20:22] Yeah, whatever. She isn't care. Okay. Also got a caller. Oh, okay, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[20:27] Hey Dave, how's it going? It's Antoine from Bokwertone. Hey, how you doing? Hope you're not hope you're not back on any juice cleanses for the holidays. You know how I feel about that.
+
+[20:37] Exactly, man. I uh I didn't explode the turkey, so everything came out alright. We didn't we didn't die with the deep front of the turkey. Nice. You still have a house or garage or wherever you did it.
+
+[20:47] Nice. Everything's all intact. Sweet, sweet. Uh my question is we're I'm actually gonna be opening up a restaurant zone at a very small cafe, about 1300 feet. Um my partners really want to hold off from putting in a a hood just inside there.
+
+[21:06] And because of the expansion of the amount of time that's going out. One of the solutions that I thought I could go around is perhaps offering the Searsol, because I wanna I still wanna put something, some sort of cook on everything without having the whole small place mellow up like that. I don't know if you had any other recommendations outside of that as well, or what you thought. Well, I mean, look, the sear the Searsol is not intended to be the primary heating device for a you know, f in a commercial application, just 'cause like it just gonna take a long time to do a bunch of covers. If you're doing like a Well I I I did wanna do I was definitely gonna do like uh a partial cook, like I was definitely gonna do C V just a finish anything on it.
+
+[21:47] Yeah, I mean look, you could do like a finish or like, you know, uh you know, I've done I've done so I just put a video up to show people kind of, you know, what it's like and but you're talking so when I did the four stakes on the second finish around, you're looking at like five minutes, but excuse me, that's not five minutes that you get to like do other stuff. That's five minutes of you just searing the stakes. So I mean I think it would be a little tough to do something like that. I mean, like, you know, one way to get around this also is like, you know, you could kinda go like induction portable and then do something that's not tech I can't believe I'm recommending this, but not technically illegal, like in terms of like no like you need to have a hood if you have certain kind of cooking stuff, right? You just need to from a code standpoint.
+
+[22:32] However, if you just have a non hood uh ventilation in a window with a fan, you know, that's not technically uh you know, ventilation for what you're doing, but then if you had a small induction unit that you can move around, people might not gripe on you so hard, and then you could use that in conjunction with some spot work on a searzole. Sears all still gonna th throw off smoke though. You know what I mean? But you know, you you could do something like that, but I wouldn't wanna rely on doing I mean look, if you were in a catering situation or like a one off thing, or if you had like just a couple of things that you wanted to hit, but you know, you you're gonna be talking that if you're just cranking covers out with that thing, you're gonna have someone on it, you know, all the time. Now, you know, eventually I'd like to make one that's you know kind of holds itself there almost like a broiler that's bigger, in which case it'd be golden for that.
+
+[23:22] But you know, in in this application, um are you is it multiple story building? Pardon me? Is it a multiple story building or single story building? Single. They should put the hood in.
+
+[23:34] Yeah, I I I want them to, but uh trying to crank everything out as quickly as possible, and then also they're trying to do it with minimal cost as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know what the costs are to do, like a uh, you know, but uh uh a hood down there, but there's that outfit out of Georgia that that sells really cheap hoods and like in uh up, you know, uh up blast blowers. I just I don't know what it would cost to actually get an install down there. Uh but you know, you're in a good situation because you have only one story.
+
+[24:04] And you know, can you fake around not having a hood? Sure, but then you know you're gonna be limiting your menu quite a bit based on what you can do. Um, you know, I just I don't I don't like seeing anyone kind of go into a situation where you know it they're setting themselves up for problems later on, you know what I mean? And that's that's pretty much what I see right now, too. I'm I'm trying to see what options I can go down.
+
+[24:26] Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I would do a lot of tests. Is it relatively open the place? I mean, are the is it like how open is the space? Um the actual cooking area is fairly closed off, but it's it's probably gonna be endless being around 500 square feet. Right, but I mean can you open the cooking space to the outside?
+
+[24:45] The problem is that in the summertime you're gonna need to AC that thing, otherwise, like, you know, I mean, you know, you're in Florida. You can't mess around with that. You know what I'm saying? So it's not like you're gonna be able to, you know, but you have you you have like you have a what you have like four or five months of decent weather in front of you before you get totally hosed on the heat, you know, and maybe they'll install uh a hood by then. But you know, the question is, yeah, can you get around stuff?
+
+[25:08] Sure. You know, you you work around having minimal amounts of sear you uh on things, you can spot do things with a searzole, or you know, you can get um there are these uh like cast iron griddles that you can heat up on uh that you know Kenji Alt Lopez has one on this, they're not available yet that you could heat on induction until it's ripping, and then do stuff like that. So there are ways around this kind of a thing. Um, you know, you're gonna have to like you're gonna have to add texture in other ways, like other crunchy stuff that you can add to it, you know, and then you can do a minimal amount of sear down on stuff, or things like fish that are primarily on the on the more uh you know raw side where you're just hitting it with something for a little bit to like get it out. Um you know, shift your menu towards that kind of stuff until you can go serious on on the on the hot side, but you're not gonna want to choke yourself out and put yourself in a situation where you can't crank the stuff out in a reasonable amount of time.
+
+[26:01] You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. It's just yeah, it's it's a huge predicament that I've been thinking about for a while. Here's the here's the thing, right? Uh here here's how I would approach it.
+
+[26:12] I approach any situation. So say, look it, okay, you're gonna have a Searzole or two, you're gonna have like some induction burners, I don't know, maybe you're gonna have an electric oven, whatever. Look at what you have, right? What you're gonna be able to get. And then just like forget forget whatever it is that you think you want to make, right?
+
+[26:29] Just forget it. Because you know, it maybe it do maybe that's not what this kitchen wants to make. But you have a certain battery of you know to cuisine there, and you have a certain refrigerator and freezer storage space, and you have a certain amount of ventilation. So now just like build build a re use it as an exercise in menu design and just build the menu around your your battery, you know, to cuisine. And that's it.
+
+[27:00] And that way, you know, don't you know don't do like the big old hard seared X, Y or Z because you know you're not gonna be able to get rid of this smoke. But like, you know, a little item here with a small amount of sear to give that brown flavor, and then maybe, you know, a bunch of other stuff that you can do on on like a coal prep or uh, you know, uh, you know something that's like hot but not smoky, like on a stove and induction on a pot or you know, in a in a in a in a warmer. So just bu build what you do around what you have, and I think you're gonna be like a lot happier than trying to crush something you want into a space that you can't produce it. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure.
+
+[27:37] For sure, for sure. Excellent. So when are you gonna open up? It's gonna it's actually gonna be uh it's still gonna be uh juice file, but for cocktails this time. Oh, nice.
+
+[27:49] All right. Well, good. So like like I mean, unfortunately w you know, as I as we all know, if it's gonna be mainly cocktail, what I what I want to eat is fried food, but that you definitely need a hood for. Ain't no, I really wanted to put in a fry. That was the initial thing.
+
+[28:03] I initially tried looking at the oilless fryers, but I don't know if that was possible or not. Yeah, you know, look, there are uh hoodless fryers, and apparently they're pretty good because um, you know, like they have them in Penn Station, right? So like they can't like, but I think those things are pricey. In other words, by the time you get, and I don't know this, I'm just talking out of out of, I'm not talking out of the proper hole when I'm saying this, but you know, the uh my feeling is is that if you're gonna invest in uh a hoodless fryer system, then you know for I mean, because you don't have a particularly difficult install job on a hood. So, you know, those are typically I think sold to people because it's gonna cost a lot to make to do a hood.
+
+[28:47] So you're looking at you could have had like an eight hundred dollar fryer and then like a five hundred dollar hood and like you know, a thousand dollar blower installed for an extra thousand dollars, or you could buy a four thousand dollar hoodless fryer and still have and still not have a hood. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, another option, I don't know whether it's legal or not, but you know, I don't know if you could fry outside, but you know, then if it you know, with that with like a with like uh what's it called, with like a uh cover or something. I don't know if it's legal or not, but it's you know, you could do that.
+
+[29:16] I mean uh you know my next fryer is probably gonna be, you know, outside, semi-covered, so I don't have to worry about ventilating it. Very good. Yeah. Well thank you once again, man. All right, let us know.
+
+[29:27] Let us know how it goes. Let us uh, you know, you know, uh take a picture of your uh menu and uh send it over to the uh cooking issues Twitter so we can see what you came up with. We'll do. Alrighty. And uh Jack, do you want us to take our first break?
+
+[29:38] Let's do it. Alrighty, uh Today's program brought to you by Brooklyn Slate. We're so proud to count Brooklyn Slate as a business member of Heritage Radio Network. Brooklyn Slate Company is a collaborative effort from Brooklyn graphic designer Sean Tice and Parsons graduate student Christy Hideka. After visiting Christie's family slate quarry in upstate New York in the spring of 2009, the two grabbed a few pieces to use as all-purpose boards back home in Brooklyn and began gifting pieces to friends.
+
+[30:36] The response was so overwhelmingly positive that the two struck out to produce a line of slate products. We encourage you to visit Brooklyn Slate.com to learn more. You can also get your own Brooklyn Slate Care package by becoming a super fan member of Heritage Radio Network. Visit us at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate for more. And we are back.
+
+[31:02] By the way, those Brooklyn Slate people, good people. Great people, yeah. Yeah. You know, they they donated uh slates to our very first uh fundraiser at Del Posto years ago, early supporters of MoFed. They're nice slates, too.
+
+[31:15] Yeah, very nice. I wonder whether I wonder like, are they like uh I know what those slates look like, but I wonder whether they do like slate for pool tables too. Not them, but the family. You know what I mean? Or whether they do slate for like more like like uh shingles, like slate roofs and stuff like that.
+
+[31:28] Yeah, not sure. I don't know. Do you know, Stas, that if you try to move a slate pool table, you'll totally ruin it? Oh, really? I did not know that either.
+
+[31:37] I thought it was the kind of thing where you could just get a bunch of knuckleheads, like buy the used pool table, pick the sucker up, you know, because you know, I'll I'll pick any. It's not that I'm I'm weak. I'm physically weak, but I have so much internal, kind of like deep seated simmering rage that I can pretty much lift anything. You know what I mean? Even though I myself am physically weak.
+
+[31:55] So I just thought I could get, you know, a couple people like that and like throw it in something and drive it around, but apparently just picking one up will totally hose it. Like the slate, like slates in like three pieces, and it'll break and it'll never be the same again. So when a pool table is moved, it's completely disassembled and then reassembled, including the felt and everything. Or it's not really felt cloth, you know what I mean? You can move the Brooklyn slate pieces though, pretty pretty easily.
+
+[32:19] Yeah, in in contradistinction to uh pool tables, right? Uh Brooklyn slate pieces are easy to move unless you're moving a couple hundred of them around to a mofed uh thing. Remember that? We're like, oh yeah, that's slate. That that box is heavy.
+
+[32:35] Uh anyway, so uh back to some questions. The Aviary did a cool Martinez variant about a year ago with a maraschino liqueur ice balls that gently melted. Uh gently melted. Uh what song am I thinking of? Gently melted.
+
+[32:50] Gently. Silently. I'm thinking of silently sleep. That's like uh Simon Garfunkel. Somehow gently melted makes me think of Simon and Garfunkel.
+
+[33:01] Which you're pro, right? Surprisingly. You like the garfunkel in the Simon, me too. Uh altering the drink and adding to my overall enjoyment of the cocktail as it dried out. Um I wonder when you dried out.
+
+[33:12] Melted out, probably. Anyway. Uh, any idea uh and how this might have been done and any way to replicate it without liquid nitrogen? Well, I happen to have gone to Aviary, and I'm pretty sure that they don't use liquid nitrogen for this trick. The way that you used to get kind of hollow spheres of stuff is you would take uh water and you would put it, you would well, you would blow up a balloon partially and then you'd put water in it, and then you'd throw that balloon into LN or whatever, and you'd spin the balloon and you'd spit it fast because it's gonna shrink because the the water.
+
+[33:40] Although maybe they just do it full. I don't know. Maybe they don't have air in it, in which case it won't shrink. Smart. Maybe.
+
+[33:45] I don't know. Anyway, probably. Anyway. So you spin it, right? And then you're getting a layer of ice all the way around the balloon, and you know how long you're gonna spin it, and you spin it, and you spin it, you spin it.
+
+[33:53] Uh, and then uh what you do is you take the pop the balloon off of it, and now you have a sphere of uh ice and the inside's still liquid. Then what you do is you take an ice pick or whatever, and then you go. That was my noise, and then you blick-lick-lick-blick-like, you pour the water out of the inside. While my guitar gently leaves. Oh, that's it, that's it.
+
+[34:15] While my guitar, while my guitar gently melts. Yeah, anyway, so you stick the uh stick the ice pick in, glick click look it out, and now you can fill it with whatever you want. There are some caveats because it's gonna melt the stuff out of the inside, so storage is an issue. I would do it, you know, relatively quickly. They then refreeze a plug over the hole and do it.
+
+[34:33] I'm pretty sure this is how they do it, right? Um but uh they don't do it with liquid nitrogen. Last time I was at Aviary, they do it with uh poly science uh a circulating chiller that uh chills uh liquid down to I don't I didn't see, I didn't notice what temperature they were running their circulator at, but that's what they do. What you could do at home is crush ice very fine and then add a not a little bit of salt, a lot of salt, like on the order of a quarter of the weight of the ice in salt, like salt. But you want it also to be kind of uh liquidy, right?
+
+[35:05] You don't want it to be chunky solids, that's why you want crushed ice, uh, water, and uh boat well, but don't add water right away because you know you're gonna get some meltdown, and a boat ton of salt. You just stir it up and it's gonna get preposterously cold, and then you could probably do the balloon with water spin. It will freeze, it's gonna take you a little bit longer, but you'll be able to do it if you immerse the balloon in it and spin it around so it stays nice and uh, you know, evenly, whatever, and you should be able to do it that way. Third, every year I make several batches of Regent's punch for my holiday party. I was thinking of adding a spherification technique in an attempt to add a festive flavor.
+
+[35:40] I don't know. I wouldn't add a spherification festive flavor, I'd go straight, but I'm still gonna answer this question. Uh I was thinking of something like slightly diluted Angostura syrup balls. Like people know I don't like the I don't like the little balls. You know, Stas?
+
+[35:53] I know. I don't like the little balls. Uh, what technique would you suggest to mineral minimize flavor thievery and maximize stability? Uh first of all, Regent's punch. So uh here uh this is by the way, I'm giving you um uh David Wonderich's recipe for Regent's Punch off of uh an Esquire article he wrote.
+
+[36:10] Thin cut the rinds of four lemons, one pint tea, twelve ounces super fine sugar, six ounces lemon juice, uh, one and a half cups orange juice, uh one cup pineapple juice, one pint brandy, one half pint dark rum, two bottles of brute champagne. Stas just perked up champagne. Uh slices of orange and slices of pineapples. Uh put the lemon rinds into the tea while the latter is still hot, allowing them to steep together, add the sugar, set aside to cool when cooled, add the fruit juices and the liquor, uh liqueur, uh, or liquor, actually. Uh place in a punch bowl with one or two large chunks of ice, uh, adding the champagne immediately before serving, garnish with orange and pineapple slices.
+
+[36:48] Now, this is Dave Wonderich's note on the official recipe. If you were to cut the brandy in half, lose the rum and pineapple juice, and pitch in a bottle of Madeira, your fellow creatures would not turn up their snouts. I think that's probably a good addition. Now, what you want to do here is you're trying to throw angostura balls into this, right? So if you want the angostura, it's a punch.
+
+[37:10] First of all, it's a punch. We mentioned this? Mm-hmm. Punch. So that means if you're going to do it traditional, it's going to sit around.
+
+[37:16] It's going to sit, right? So now you have a couple of choices. If you do standard spherification, the angostura balls are going to go solid. And that's going to suck. There's going to be little balls that are not going to have any flavor if you use algin and go forward, right?
+
+[37:29] Even if you were to, you could do like uh gel an very light. Excuse me. Very I'm coughing like a lunatic today. Uh it's the sweet weather we're having. Uh, you could do like a very light gel-an gel, and they would still have some flavor and go a little bit larger.
+
+[37:43] You could drop them, but again, and we're talking light, like, you know, a quarter of a percent or less of uh low acyl gel and so you get that nice brittle and the flavor release, but they're gonna melt their flavor out relatively quickly. By the way, if you're gonna make the balls beforehand, you're gonna want to store them in the ango syrup themselves so that they don't leach flavor out. Um but you're gonna be looking at at that kind of a problem. It's still gonna be solid. If you want it to stay liquid, right, then you're gonna have to do some form of reverse alginate.
+
+[38:11] And to do reverse alginate, you're gonna need to add, I would presumably you need to add um calcium to the angostura, thicken it quite a bit uh with sugar or whatever else, and then drop it into a relatively thin alginate bath, let it sit long enough, pull it out, and then put it through a calcium water bath to rinse off the rinse off and slash set the uh algin on the outside. You don't have to add calcium in the first bath. Although I usually rinse off in water and then in calcium. But if the balls stick together, then you're SOL. But this way, these balls will last forever.
+
+[38:40] Um if you store them in Angostora with a little bit of calcium in it, you can keep these things forever. And they will stay liquid on the inside forever. But here is your problem. One of two things is going to happen, depending on the density you choose for it. They are either going to sink to the bottom of your bowl or they're going to float to the top of your bowl.
+
+[38:59] Neither of which is necessarily what you want, right? So how are you going to remedy this? Well, you can't unless you want to make a gel-an fluid gel out of the punch. And now you've you've gone beyond where I'm going to even co-sign even temporarily on this on this stuff. Because like by making a fluid gel out of the punch, the whole thing's gonna shake like a bowl full of jelly, like Santa's belly from that uh night before Christmas uh thing.
+
+[39:22] You used to read that when you're a kid? Mm-hmm. You like that poem? I used to have it memorized. I don't have it anymore.
+
+[39:26] I just remember their sashes. Remember, he throws open the sash. Oh, yeah. Yeah. At the time I didn't know what a sash was.
+
+[39:33] That's why I've stuck in my head. I would say it every year, and I was like, I have no idea. But you know what? Too lazy to look it up. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[39:40] It's like my son Dax. He's like, what does this mean? I'm like, go look it up. He's like, no. Anyway.
+
+[39:45] Uh P.S. Some friends of mine were traveling from our home in St. Louis to New York and visited Booker and Dax on my recommendation. They loved it. I don't usually recommend places.
+
+[39:53] I've myself not visited, but I felt confident you would deliver. Uh thank you, BJD. Thank you. That's very nice. I appreciate that.
+
+[40:00] Um now we got some more these are actually new questions. We got new questions in. How much time do I have? Uh 10 minutes. Yeah, 10 minutes.
+
+[40:09] Alex writes in, Hello, Jack, Anastasia, and Dave. Hey, yeah, right. Nice. Uh thank you for the show and everything else. I've listened to just about every back episode over the past two years and have heard your comments about pressure cookers that don't leak any steam as being better, but I cannot recall ever hearing why.
+
+[40:24] I have some guesses, but I would rather hear your reason. Um he says, and if it's a slow day and you have time for another question, we spoke uh about ultra spurse M versus 3. Um I'm unfamiliar with them besides being pre-gelatinized starch, but how are they different from Wondra? And what am I missing out by not using them? Well, I'll get into that one next time.
+
+[40:44] If uh Jack, if you can have someone remind me to get to get that question uh next week, I'll I'll get that one next week. But as a results of the pressure cooker, the interesting answer is I have no idea. I have no freaking idea why it makes a difference whether the pressure cooker is emitting steam or not. Uh and s uh, you know, I just don't know. You know, because it's gonna be like, well, it's um you know, the volatiles are coming out with the steam, and that's what's ruining it, right?
+
+[41:10] That's what you would think. No, Stas, is that what you would think if you actually care to think about it? Yeah, probably yeah, right. Yeah, probably if I care to think about it. But um, interestingly, uh this the pressure cookers that let off steam fared worse in side-by-side stock tests, and this is just stock, by the way.
+
+[41:27] And by the way, I think I did veal and chicken. Um, they fared worse than an like an open standard stock pot. Now, you know, that thing is open and the volatiles are leaving all of the time, right? So if it's the fact that it's volatiles leaving, then why should an open pot be better than a pressure cooker pot? Unless it's a different kind of better that you know, like it goes loses so many volatiles that it comes back through.
+
+[41:53] But that wasn't my impression. So, what happened was is that for years I'd been making stock in in my pressure cooker, which is a coon recon, which doesn't uh which has a spring and doesn't make steam. And I was like, this is a better way of making stock. And then uh, you know, I went to go write the blog post about how years ago uh, you know, I went to go write, you know, my blog post about how awesome pressure cookers are and how they're so much better for stocks because the stocks are browner and faster, and they just taste inherently better because there's more extraction and more meaty flavor and more and more better, blah blah blah. And I used uh the FCI's crappy pressure cookers, their crappy $60 pressure cookers that were blowing steam off the entire time they were doing it.
+
+[42:36] And this was by the way, just a formality, because in my head I'd already the pressure cooker was already better, blah, blah, blah. So I made a traditional stock and I made the pressure cooker stock, and I tasted them side by side, and I was like, what? What? What? The traditional one was better, like by a good margin.
+
+[42:53] The the pressure cooker one was darker, but the you know, traditional one had like a much better flavor, everyone agreed, and it wasn't just because onion is uh really softened, for instance, in a pressure cooker, or sweetness of carrots magnified. It just wasn't as good. And I was like, what the what? Like my entire world was like kind of like thrown upside down for a couple of days. Uh so I did it again and again, the traditional one.
+
+[43:21] And then I was like, you know what? You know what? I'm bringing my pressure cooker in to work. So I brought my pressure cooker into work, and then I did three. I did traditional, I did my pressure cooker that doesn't vent, and I did their crappy pressure cooker that vented.
+
+[43:36] I'm not gonna say it was a fagor, but it was. And then uh, no offense to them, but it's steams, whatever. Anyway, so like uh I did the test, and then uh I was like, my pressure cooker easily beat, easily beat traditional and way, way, way, way beat the um the venting pressure cooker. And I ran the test a couple of times, and we always got the same kind of results. And so uh and I also ran it in a different kind of sealing pressure cooker, the American canner, which also seals.
+
+[44:08] Uh because it's basically a bomb with you know with a little overpressure valve on it. So whatever. So you know, it's just something that, you know, I discovered empirically, and I haven't ever really made a good reason for it because I don't really know the answer. Um but you know, that's the good thing about not having to know the why necessarily in the kitchen, just knowing the what. But you can't know the what unless you do the kind of careful uh observation of of what you're doing.
+
+[44:43] So I have no I I still have no clue. I'd like to hear someone tell me why. Um I'd like to hear someone tell me why. But I think for other things it doesn't make so much of a difference. Like uh, you know, I haven't noticed a difference in eggs, pressure cooked eggs, for instance, between a venting and a and a and a non venting.
+
+[45:02] Um so I don't know. Interesting question. I'd love to hear uh other people's ideas, but I never like to give explanations that I just don't have any idea. You know, Stas? Yes.
+
+[45:12] Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. Uh so uh let me see. We have uh now this now Uriel wrote in, right, uh a couple of times.
+
+[45:22] Oh wait, we have Paul Paul said because Uriel, listen, you wrote in about uh milk powder, and I don't have a good answer for you because I haven't had the chance to try to cook with the milk powder yet. I'm gonna try uh to do a test with the milk powder to see kind of what happens. So, you know, the question that he had was um there's a couple of questions, but the the important one is about, and I read it once on the air about Heston Blumenthal and how he you adds milk powder to chicken wings when he's uh roasting them off and then he's gonna make a stock. And uh Uriel's not a able to get because the reason being that you get uh kind of mired reactions because you know, milk has both milk powder has both proteins and reducing sugars in them. And the browning in milk is really like a myard, like uh like in um I believe it is, like in Dulce de Leche and things like this.
+
+[46:08] And so um, you know, getting those extra kind of flavors by adding the you know, milk powder to the to the chicken wings. But um, and Uriel wasn't making stock, but he said that this really doesn't have a kind of a good result. But uh I um I don't I I don't really know the answer to like how to get it to use it for searing because I have me for browning on on something cooked, so I haven't tried. So I'd love to get other people's responses into this, and I'm gonna try to do it myself, because I do have some milk powder uh lying around. Um okay, so we're gonna hold that one off again, and hopefully someone can write in or you know, tweet me or whatever and give me some uh guidance or advice, and hopefully I have time to run some experiments myself.
+
+[46:47] Uh but we have Paul writing in. I guess it's gonna have to be the last question, huh? Yeah. Yep. All right.
+
+[46:52] Uh hi Dave. Uh I was wondering if you had any experience or advice using a coffee siphon brewer. So we're talking about a vacuum pot. And he drew a really nice picture. You like that picture, is that?
+
+[47:02] Yeah. By the way, you know, people, I appreciate I can't show them on the air, but I appreciate that in the nice little picture, you know. Uh in fact, instead of reading it, I am looking at the nice little picture. He's he drew a Japanese style one, those really kind of expensive Japanese ones that you get with the little ball underneath and the thingamajig. Um anyway.
+
+[47:20] I was wondering if you had any experience or advice using a coffee siphon brewer with hot cocktails. A bartender friend of mine was thinking of doing something with gin, see attached sketch. Oh, there's a recipe there. I can't see that small. Stas, can you blow it up on your computer to see what the recipe is?
+
+[47:34] Uh bartender friend of mine was thinking of doing something with gin, see attached sketch, and while I have seen hot cocktails prepared this way at the aviary here in Chicago, I didn't know what considerations need to be made with ratios, etc. I'd also heard the method brings down the ABV. Is this considerably? Is this true and anything that could be done to counter that? What do you want to know?
+
+[47:52] Well, what what what was the recipe? Cinnamon, anise, allspice, clothes, orange peel, gin, gin cider. Gin cider? Well, I mean, that's the arrow there. Oh.
+
+[48:02] Okay. So a couple of questions here. One, do you have to adjust ratios? Absolutely. Two, do you uh lose ABV?
+
+[48:13] Absolutely. Three, uh, what does the siphon do to it? Uh, and the answer to that is I have no idea. I've never used uh this uh I've never used a siphon for uh infusion for cocktails. I've had coffee with it, but I've never used it for kind of infusion because uh a bunch of people uh kind of had already done it.
+
+[48:33] And uh and so like you know, I we don't do kind of table side infusions of booker and dacks, so I don't have a lot of personal experience with it. But I do have a lot of experience balancing hot drinks uh and getting rid of alcohol. And the truth of the matter is is that losing alcohol is not a bad thing. When you have a hot drink, you need to have an ex like a much, much lower alcohol content in that drink uh than you would in uh any other kind of cocktail. You also need to serve in a wide, not like in a bowl, because if you if it's in a huge bowl, then you have to put your face over it like you're a dog looking out of a bowl and you'll get overwhelmed by the fumes.
+
+[49:07] But if you have a smaller glass, like a normal cocktail glass, when you bring your uh it up to your nostrils, you'll you'll get a focused hit of hot alcohol, and it'll it'll even if the drink is balanced, you won't be able to drink it. So what we use is kind of you know, uh T slash coffee cups when we're doing it. So the what the vessel you drink out of is extremely important when you're doing a hot alcohol drink like this. Also, bear in mind when you're serving hot drinks to people, it's nice to give them a cup with a handle on it. There's a reason coffee cups have handles on them, uh, and teacups have handles on them.
+
+[49:41] Now, so getting rid of the uh some of the alcohol is not bad. In fact, when I do the red hot pokers, which we're gonna fire up again in about a week or so at Booker and Dax, um, because we have our new welder coming in. Uh when you when I do hot drinks, I literally burn excess alcohol off because when you're um if if I want to include uh like a lot of a flavor of the base spirit, right? I I need to include uh enough liquor for you to really taste the liquor, but that amount of liquor, if you didn't get rid of some of the alcohol, would be too strong in the aroma of alcohol in the finished drink. So getting rid of ABV is actually your friend in this situation, not your friend from a cost standpoint, but it's definitely your friend from a flavor standpoint.
+
+[50:23] Um and as regards mixing, uh, if you're gonna add, was there any was there any acid in that? I know I heard there was orange. Was there any acid at all in that? You want to really scale the acid back to very low. And then um, you know, you you're gonna need to taste it hot because the your perception of the sugar is gonna change radically, and your perception of the alcohol is gonna change radically.
+
+[50:44] So what I would do is I would make the drink and then just add in hot water until you get the kind of dilution you want in terms of the alcohol nose and the flavor of the spirit, you'll get that. Then back s back substitute in your other base flavors. By that I mean your sweetness and any acid that you're going to do. Then, then worry about your botanicals and infusions because those things you're going to be able to nail pretty easily because they work just like tea. And tea is something you're used to.
+
+[51:13] The parameters that you're going to have to work with that you're not used to working with are hot alcohol, hot acid, and hot sugar in terms of how they relate and balancing a cocktail. There's a section called Red Hot Poker Drinks and Liquid Intelligence that you could probably do Amazon search inside without even buying the book and just check out and see kind of what the parameters are there. Because I write down my alcohol levels, theoretical, uh, you know, and whatnot, and talk about this in kind of greater detail. And with that, we're out of here cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[51:47] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[52:11] Thanks for listening. Mm-hmm.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn Live usually with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Are we having a show next week?
+
+[0:56] What day? What what what day is that? What what what month day is that? Um I don't know, but I don't I know we're not having a show. We're not doing this is our Christmas show?
+
+[1:06] Sure. What you're gone, is that what you're telling me? Or mine? I think. I think we're both gone.
+
+[1:10] Jack, what day what I'll be here, but I mean You'll be here? Yeah. Gee, should we do a hammerless show? Why are you still gonna be here, Dave? I'm always here.
+
+[1:20] Yeah, you know. It's not it's not it's not me, actually. My wife is uh an architect, and you know, she's like hyper hyper busy. I don't think she's gonna be able to leave until Christmas. Until Christmas.
+
+[1:32] God bless us, everyone. She's gonna be like She'll be there all the earlier the next morning. It's like she's her own screw. She's her own Scrooge and her own uh uh Bob Crabit. So you're okay.
+
+[1:42] I don't know. I don't know what day it is. We'll figure it out. Well, this may or may not then be our uh Christmas uh our Christmas show. We can still make it a Christmas show.
+
+[1:52] This show? This show right now. Christmas slash home. Oh, yeah, no. That's the twenty-fourth.
+
+[1:57] Oh, wait, the Tuesday's the twenty fourth? Yeah. Come on. Twenty third. Oh twenty third.
+
+[2:01] Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. We'll talk about it. I'll tweet it out if we're gonna do it. Yeah?
+
+[2:05] Yeah. Okay. I know one person who will not be here. Who? You.
+
+[2:08] I don't know. I really don't know. I don't remember when I'm leaving. Where are you going? You going somewhere nice?
+
+[2:13] No, I'd already told you. Yeah, but they don't know where you're going. Do you not want to talk to us? Staying here. So you're not going any well, you're going to Connecticut.
+
+[2:21] Yeah, but I don't know what day. I will also be in Connecticut people. But thankfully we will not be together because we need our alone time. Am I right? Am I right?
+
+[2:29] Yeah. Tell me about it. So you want to talk about our uh twelve by the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Got Jack in the booth today.
+
+[2:39] Who else we got over there? I didn't look when I ran in. Why it's here. Hey, why what's up? Uh can I just jump right before the show starts?
+
+[2:46] It's uh I I I hate to keep doing this, but it's the big fundraising drive. We're almost done, end of the year. Um and this week we have a generous donor who's gonna match donations. So it's like double bucks. Double bucks?
+
+[2:59] Yeah, it's a fairway market. It's gonna match donations. I heard that they were like no other market. Is that true? That's absolutely true.
+
+[3:04] Yeah? Yeah. Stas true, like no other market. She's like, what do I know? I don't live anywhere near a fairway.
+
+[3:09] I'm in the Hills Kitchen. I don't make it to the upper west side. Might as well be in Venus. Right. Right?
+
+[3:13] Anyways. Uh wait, but I had a question for I don't forget whether it was for Jack or for Nastasi. Now I forget what the the question was. Maybe I should just answer like, you know, real people's questions. Yes.
+
+[3:22] Oh, I know. Before I do that, uh Stas, you wanna are we we're doing our twelve days of searing. You want to explain the twelve days of series? Oh, yeah, we're calling it Sears and Greetings. Yeah?
+
+[3:30] Yeah, not twelve days of hearing. But um you send in your videos of you and and your Sears all searing something. And we may post it online. And then the prizes if you're gonna get uh Burnsmatic T S eight thousand for ten people and then grand prize winner gets one of those with a signed stairs all by you. And we're figuring out a way to post them before the thing ends, right?
+
+[3:51] There's that's there's one up right now. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah, nice. I'll I will check it out.
+
+[3:55] You can go to Searsall dot tumbler dot com. Net dot splat.org. We don't exist.me dot yeah. Do you know I own nobody likes dot me. I don't know if you still own it.
+
+[4:06] Oh, I didn't pay? Yeah. Nobody likes me. There you go. Okay.
+
+[4:10] Uh these questions in. Uh this is from uh BJD. May I have a rundown of the full Gousot for optimum cooling and storage of vacuum bags sous vide meats. By the way, Bruno Gousseau is like the so you know, Gousseau and Joel Robouch, no sorry, not Joel Robichon. Like Gusot worked with Joel Robouchon for um uh you know, to come up with the first kind of uh kind of widespread application of Sous vide at the SNCF, which is the railway in France.
+
+[4:39] Anyway, so that's kind of how he got into like the low temperature sous vide on the high end cuisine side of it, although it was for a mass market application of high end cuisine with the Joel Robichon. But Bruno Gusseau uh was kind of the uh he's kind of the granddaddy of low temperature cooking, whereas if you actually talk about sous vide, you're talking about Georges Pralu's the charcuterie who did the uh the foie gras for the uh Trogra brothers back in France. So it's like you know, they they compete, they're both, you know, like I I don't really know Pralu, I've met him once or twice, but I know Gousot pretty well. And so like, you know, he I think they kind of maybe they give each other a good natured ribbing, but I think they actually uh they might actually dislike each other. I don't know.
+
+[5:17] What do you think? I don't know. You know, anyway, they're both like like, you know, hardcore like French dudes. I love I love Gousseau, though. He runs uh he runs a company or it's you know big part of the company called Cuisine Solutions, uh, which they work here in the U.S.
+
+[5:29] Anyway, Gousot. So Gousseau has this theory. Well, I'll finish the question first. Okay. Uh I've listened to the back catalog twice, but don't recall the exact process of the full Gousot.
+
+[5:38] Uh my A Nova circulator I shipped, and I'm uh particularly worried about the safety of my toddler and pregnant wife. Uh and then have you finished the low temp primer? No. And believe me, I'm not. I'm not gonna do it.
+
+[5:50] But I will answer any questions regarding it. You know, someday what I should do, you know what I should do, Stas? I should just do a because I'm not gonna I don't have the time to write down this stuff. But what I could do someday if people actually wanted it, is I could do like a low temp primer podcast where I literally just talk you through all of the aspects of low temperature cooking that there would be in a you know on the primer if I had time to write it. Um and then we could you know update it as necessary, switch in or out.
+
+[6:22] But if there's any if anyone wants the equivalent of like books on tape of the uh the what what do they call those things now that they're not on tapes anymore? Audio books, audio books. If anyone wants audio books. If anyone wants the equivalent of a it'll be more like this because I'll be off the top of my head and I'll be like, you know, going on tangents constantly, but I could do a hey, would you record it, Jack? And then maybe somebody could do a slideshow to it, you know.
+
+[6:44] Yeah, somebody, yeah, somebody with a YouTube video. YouTube. Anyway, uh I got a caller on the line whenever you're ready. Oh, okay, okay. Let me let me sure okay.
+
+[6:53] Listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna come back, I'm gonna talk about the full Gousot. Let me just get this caller and then uh we'll come back. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh David from California. How you doing?
+
+[7:03] Yeah, good. Hey, uh I wanted to get some strategies from you uh on infusing French fries. French fries with flavor. Okay. What flavor?
+
+[7:14] I've done the exact opposite recently, by the way. I finally made French fry liquor and it was delicious, but it went stale the same way. So like after it was stored for a while in the refrigerator, when it came out, it it like you know that you know that cold stored potato smell after it's been cooked? Like you know how like when you get the fr the person's like, Do you want to take the French fries home? And you're like, I don't really want to, but I don't really want to have them have to distinguish between the leftovers, the rest of the leftovers in the plate and the French fries are on the plate, so you stick it all in that styro and you're tired when you get home, because whatever.
+
+[7:45] So you throw it in the fridge and the next day you smell the french fries. We all know what we're what I'm talking about here. I that happened to the liquor, so I'm working on trying to get rid of that. But anyway, go ahead. So you want to you want to do the opposite.
+
+[7:54] You want to infuse some sort of liquid flavor into a french fry, right? Yeah, well I I make uh a baked potato stock that I uh use with mashed potatoes, and I wanted to get something like that into a French fry, give it that real roast potato taste. Okay, do you own a vacuum machine? No, I I just a food saver. See the vacuum machine would have been the easy cause I I I've done that uh, you know, a lot with different flavors like uh most notably uh vinegar, which also does a lot to change the texture of the fry because the uh it it delays the um softening of the potatoes, so they they're a little harder.
+
+[8:32] But and so if you had a vacuum machine, you would just uh cut the potatoes off, I would and uh throw them directly into the stock, not into water, because they'll absorb a lot uh of water there and that's like stealing part you like some of your flavor, right? So um i the one downside of course of this, you might want to what I would hmm okay, let's think about this. Because you don't want the starch, you want to do the wash of the starch. So what I would do, probably is cut them, do a quick rinse in water, uh, and then like salad spin them dry to get them as dry as possible. That way you wash that initial layer of starch off the outside.
+
+[9:08] And then and then I would stick them uh directly into the stock and let them and let them kind of soak. Now, that way though you're also gonna, you know, because they're underwater on our stock, you're not gonna have uh the oxidation, you're gonna be okay. Now, what I would do is then suck a vacuum on these things, like a pretty hard vacuum. Um, and that would kind of allow me to um that would that would instantly infuse the uh infuse the flavor into the French fries. Now, I would say that you could do an ISI variant, but think of how many ISI cartridges you have to go through to infuse a reasonable number of French fries.
+
+[9:44] Too many. Um so what I would do is probably uh uh get one of the um you know your food saver bags, how you can you can get them uh on a roll so you can make your own length? Oh yeah, I got that. Yeah, I would make a really long one and stick the potatoes in the bottom, and now the the thing is is that you're gonna have to figure out uh uh you know, you're gonna need some sort of um anti-crush thing in there so that it doesn't think it's reached a vacuum before it has, because that's what typically happens in one of these in one of these situations is that you're it's very hard to get a good vacuum on liquids in one of these bags. But I'm trying to think of what you could stick into it that would prevent it from kind of instantly self-sealing as soon as the l first little bit of liquid starts sucking up into those little straws.
+
+[10:34] I don't know, you're gonna have to play around with it. And then I would just cut it and suck it, cut it and suck it, cut it and suck it, cut it and suck it and keep on trying to get the flavor in, even though you know I've said up a million times that the that the food saver is not really ideal for vacuum infusion. It's really kind of the only it's kind of the only thing you've got here. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
+
+[10:44] Yeah. Well, I guess I could buy the machine then. Uh-huh. Well, that's kind of pricey. Unless you can return it.
+
+[10:57] Or you know what you could do is uh it the cheapest way if you want to do infusions, if you want to do a bunch of these things, is to get a refrigeration vacuum machine, uh vacuum pump, like uh the equivalent of like a Robinair, one of the kind of larger ones, or you know, uh there's a bunch of different companies that make them. And uh then you can just put a hose, you know, crush proof uh hose uh you know onto a piece of uh uh uh uh you know like Lexan or or or even acrylic, really, because you're not gonna be doing alcohol in this situation, and then seal it over a round Bane Marie with uh like a sheet of rubber, suck a hard vacuum on it, and that thing is as good as uh it works as well as uh as a pro vacuum machine. I mean the vacuum's pump's not as robust and it's not as fast, but it will suck a serious vacuum, and you can do it on like a three or four five gallon Bain Marie all at the same time, which is pretty awesome. And then you're only looking at like, you know, you can get one of those on eBay for like 150 bucks, brand new. So the the short answer is that vacuum infusion is the way to go with with French fries.
+
+[11:58] Yeah, because they're porous, and so then what you do, right, is the flavor gets in, right? And then you of course, you know, you boil it in the stock, not in water when you're gonna do your initial uh boil, and then as you dry, the moisture will evaporate out and they'll leave all that excess flavor in. Uh and so yeah, you should get it a good result. Maybe the other way to do it is to drink you know, dry completely desiccate the stock out and then make a spice powder out of it, but that's a real pain in the butt. Yeah, that was the other strategy I thought might work, but I didn't I didn't know if you played around with that sort of stuff much.
+
+[12:30] Uh no, I haven't. But you the trick is remember to boil it in the flavor that you want it to taste like. And also, and that might actually, frankly, why you know, before you go off and get all crazy, since you're going to be cooking these potatoes until they're kind of uh falling apart anyway, right? Because when you're making French fries, you do your initial uh you do your initial uh blanch. Uh you're really looking to uh you know cook them until they're dead, you know.
+
+[12:56] Uh just you don't want them to shatter apart because you want them to stay whole while you fry them, but you don't want them al dente. You know what I mean? That's not how you're gonna get the best texture out of it. And if you make a really rich stock and boil the potatoes in a very rich stock, maybe, you know, the French fries, maybe that's enough. Maybe you don't need to infuse it all.
+
+[13:13] So what I would do is take a little bit of your stock and just cook a couple of uh French fries in it, you know, and see whether or not uh you get a good enough result. And if you do there, then you're done, then you don't have to spend any money at all. Okay. Because potatoes are pretty dang porous. That's why when you boil them in salty, salty water, they get salty, salty, salty.
+
+[13:32] But of course, salt, salt is a tiny molecule, so maybe the stock stuff doesn't make it through. I don't know, run a test. Okay, that's enough for me to run with. Alrighty, good luck with it. Let us know how it works.
+
+[13:44] All right, thanks, Dave. Appreciate it. No problem. Okay, so we're back to the gousot. Now remember, where we last left off, Bruno Gusseau, like the you know, the granddaddy of uh low temperature cooking, as opposed to Pralu, kind of granddaddy of sous viv.
+
+[13:56] So Gusot is working on this stuff now. Learned many years ago, probably well, you know, many, many, many years ago, uh, like the first time that he did a presentation at uh WD-50, and this is I think this is before I was working at the French culinary. I don't know. Gousot uh did a presentation where uh you know he he basically said, Hey, look at when you're cooking um a protein uh most most proteins I think he's talking about like muscle meats and more specifically you know kind of mammal muscle meats and also birds but not s I don't I don't know how he feels about fish although he probably says he's specifically like you know weird cuts like foie gras he doesn't you know discuss. But anyways in fact says won't help doesn't matter.
+
+[14:34] But uh when you're cooking it you bring it up at a you ramp up the temperature and then the way he explains it to chefs is more of like this kind of holistic uh business where he's like and you want to ramp it down at the same temperature as though that as though that makes a difference to me as though I care about that. Really the real argument if you talk to him uh you know you just kind of accost him about it is that uh the slower the ramp rate of uh chilling when you're working the um more liquids are reabsorbed by the meat uh as it cools so there's an in Gousot's opinion or Gousseau's uh research he's seen that there is a kind of an optimal temperature of the meat for reabsorbing uh any liquids that have been expelled during the cooking process and that optimum uh temperature is lower than the cook temperature but higher than a chill temperature. So if you rapidly rapidly chill a piece of meat then uh you're uh not giving that meat the opportunity to reabsorb some of the liquids that it expelled and you'll have a less juicy piece of meat. That's the Gousot theory. And so what Gousot wants to do is have a more gradual cool down but still get it cool within the time parameters of safety.
+
+[15:44] All right now this is not going to make a difference for things like eggs, for things like foie gras for anything like that. For those things, you can just chill them, you know, whatever you want. But we used to run tests where we would, and so here's what Gousseau says. Gousseau says just pull your product out of the bath and leave it on the table, depending on the thickness. Let's say it's like you know, an inch and a half, you know, or an inch and a quarter rib steak or something like this.
+
+[16:08] Leave it on the counter for uh you you choose it's like depending on the thickness, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I think up to, I think he says you can go up to 20. I never do 20, but like that's what you can go up to. Leave it on the counter, right? Uh, and that's gonna slowly let the temperature go down, right?
+
+[16:25] Because the air is a very bad conductor of heat. Now I actually put it on racks so that it's getting air all around it, right? So that's the first section. Then this next step that you do is you put the meat, uh the bags into uh tap water. So tap water isn't refrigerator temperature, it's usually somewhere close to room temperature in the you know, in the in uh in the 20s somewhere, like 20 uh or like 65, you know, if you're in Fahrenheit land, and uh you want to put them in the tap water and you can let it run slowly so it stays at that, and that's gonna rapidly bring them down to room temperature, and that's the second part of the curve.
+
+[16:59] And then the third part of the curve is to throw them directly into ice water. And uh and the ice water, uh, you know, agitated ice water is going to rapidly, rapidly drop the suckers down to uh down to you know safe fridge storage temperatures. Much okay, now that's how he does it, and it guarantees uh, you know, for reasonably th you know sized cuts of meat, it guarantees that the inside core is gonna get um uh cold enough fast enough, but it does the initial ramp down in a way that allows it to uh chill. So typically you do like 15, 15, 15, so 15 on the counter, 15 in tap water, and 15 in ice water. Now, you know, could you do like 20 on the counter and then ice water?
+
+[17:43] Probably, but any time you ramp it, he's gonna say you're gonna increase the uh you're gonna increase the amount of moisture that's reabsorbed. And we I used to laugh at it, but then we ran tests and and uh you know it turns out like you know side by side mo most people pick full good so in terms of uh the taste and that's why we call it a full gousot. Um another way to do things is if you just throw it in the fridge it's gonna ramp down slowly because in a fridge you have very low uh you know heat you know transfer because of the it's just air but there's a bunch of problems there. A, you're shafting everything else in your fridge because you put a hot load in your fridge and B, there's no guarantee really that the stuff's gonna get down to refrigerator temperature in a reasonable amount of time. You know, there's just not especially if you're stacking bags on top of bags.
+
+[18:25] So if you're really worried about safety, I wouldn't worry about doing the full gousot in terms of uh like whether it's going to get safe in time. I think that's gonna be a lot safer than it is just throwing the bags in the fridge and and having done with it. Good. Yeah. Uh okay now uh he also he also writes um thanks for answering my questions last week I did not put any angostura turd balls in my punch bowl.
+
+[18:48] Remember we were talking about like yeah so he did not do any turd balls. Um he's and then he says as my other question I feel I wasn't clear enough on my aviary and uh maraschino ice question remember there was a maraschino liqueur ice question that we had um I think Dave thought I meant the drink that comes in a hollow ice balloon I did think that uh though a cool presentation it wasn't what I was after the Martinez I had came with pebble ice which seemed to be made from marischino liqueur when this ice melts it dries the drink out as it makes it taste driver, I guess from marischino. Would Dave happen to know how they freeze the liqueur? And is that in fact what they're doing? Well, you could look, you can freeze, you can freeze any dang thing.
+
+[19:23] It's just uh it's not going to you know, it's gonna melt unlike a normal ice and it's gonna be really cold. I haven't seen this presentation, so I don't know what they do. But you know, obviously the more you water down uh a liquor or liqueur, the more you are, you know, the the less you have to overcome the you know the the fact that it doesn't want to freeze. So, you know, you can use any combination of cryogens to uh chill um liqueur down to the point where it's frozen, you know, LN. It's possible to do it with dry ice, but it's a real pain in the butt.
+
+[19:58] Um so you could you do it? Yeah, you could do it, but um I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to see someone will have to email me a picture of the uh of the presentation. So I have to see how it looks. If I saw how it looked, I could determine how they did it because I can see how kind of how the melt melting down worked, but I don't I don't know specifically.
+
+[20:17] Anyway, uh next question we have in from Chris at the UNC School of Medicine. Can I use dry ice to cruddle uh cryo mudd if I don't have access to liquid nitrogen? Well, if you are at the school of medicine, I would say go steal yourself some liquid nitrogen instead of trying to use some dry ice. Um right, wouldn't you say? I mean, here's my problem with dry ice.
+
+[20:39] First of all, I love having dry ice, and I love putting dry ice into stainless steel containers because it makes this horrible death squeal that drives uh Nastasia completely bonkers. Remember that that that death squeal? So you s you stick the dry ice into the container and it goes like a like a like sticking a like sticking a thousand pigs. It's like that squeal of that horrible but with metallic, it's crazy, it's awful. Love it.
+
+[21:05] Because I can barely hear it. You know what I mean? Like for me, it's like, you know, I mean, it's not like I would sign up to have someone play that at a concert. You know what I mean? But, you know, like the high register stuff doesn't make me cringe anymore.
+
+[21:14] Uh, you know, it's too damn old and I've abused my ears too much with uh with the with the loud music. But um anyways, so there's that. There's that awful noise. And then there's the so and then there's the fact that it's very difficult to um it's very difficult to freeze things with dry ice because dry ice is not a liquid. So you don't get complete surrounding of your of your leaves, of your of your leaves with uh cryogen, right?
+
+[21:45] So here's how you can do it if you really uh in other words, I'm not necessarily I'm not recommending it, is what I'm saying. But if you were gonna do it, here's how I would do it. Uh if you absolutely had to do it, I would uh take uh dry ice, I would get nugget form because it breaks easier, uh, as opposed to the blocks, which are really hard. I would shove a nugget into the bottom of your of your tin and I would smash the hell out of it to a powder with a um with a muddler. Then you're gonna add spirit to that.
+
+[22:14] Uh and it has to be pretty high-proof spirit, so it doesn't um in fact you'd have to get like 95%. Like you need something that's not going to to solidify with the dry ice. So you need like, you know, almost technically pure liquor there. Then once that's at super cold freezing temp, then you could use the liquid alcohol as the cryogen. Then you could stick the herbs in, and then assuming you didn't have too much liquid in there, they'd probably be brittle enough to shatter, right?
+
+[22:42] Uh, at which point you could at which point you could go, you could go ahead. Another way you might be able to try it is to uh pellet ice straight. Now you could probably use 40%, you know, like regular like liquor. Uh just turn it into a slushy, and you could use a blender for this, right? Turn it into a slushy with the dry ice, right?
+
+[22:59] So now it's really, really, really, really, really cold. Uh then you could immerse the herbs in it, wait a second for them to freeze, and then blender muddle, and it'll probably be close probably be better than than room temp blender muddling, maybe not quite as good as actual um uh nitro muddling, then you're gonna have to add your other ingredients and warm it back up to room temp to shake, otherwise you're gonna get your dilutions all messed up. But these are all things you can try. Um, but remember, blender model like room temperature blender modeling is not that bad. It's just not as good.
+
+[23:36] But do it side by side and tell me what you think. Anyway, uh two, any reason I could not or should not attempt to fat wash a bourbon with brown butter? Absolutely not. I've had delicious uh uh brown butter uh fat washed things. It takes a lot though.
+
+[23:50] It's a lot, right? It takes a lot. And uh I think you're gonna want contact with uh those milk solids, right? The kind of brown nutty milk solids. So you know, I would brown it and then I would put the entire thing, including the solids together with it, and then uh and then work it.
+
+[24:06] Didn't Piper used to do make that all the time? Or just regular butter? I don't know. You can do it. I've done it, it works.
+
+[24:12] Um three, can you talk more about milk washing tea, vodka, and if it's possible to do in the home setting? Uh oh, sure. So milk washing is a technique I have in liquid intelligence, the art and science, and the perfect cocktail. Although, you know, I I hate the subtitle. I know they like it, but I don't like the subtitle.
+
+[24:30] Shit about it. But you know how I am. There's what I care about, and there's what I don't care about, or there's what I care about right now, and then there's what I end up caring about later. But like we all know that I don't believe anything is perfect. Right.
+
+[24:42] Right? And so, like, even though, like, you know, uh that's like Cooks Illustrated, right? I mean, like the one of the gripes I have with Cooks Illustrated, although like back when it came out in 93, like you know, I had the all that original charter stuff because I used to reading it back in, you know, back then. Amazing kind of game-changing magazine, obviously. Uh, you know, but like the one gripe I always have with them is they're always like the best this, the blah, this.
+
+[25:03] And what they really mean is a really well-researched X, Y, or Z that tackles certain problems that we which I really appreciate. I love that, but I just don't like calling it the best. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Caller.
+
+[25:16] Uh sure. Uh I haven't talked about the milk washing yet, right? So I have to I have to talk to that after I talk about the collar, right? Okay. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[25:24] Hey, David, it's Andy from Chicago. How are you doing? Doing alright, how you doing? I'm doing great, thanks. Uh kind of sticking to the cocktail theme.
+
+[25:31] Uh, we're hosting a little holiday party this weekend, and I wanted to get some ideas from you, maybe on a little cocktail holiday punch kind of thing. Uh got your book, haven't read it yet. I'm keeping it stored away high up in a closet so my uh girlfriend doesn't see it, but uh giving it to her for Christmas. Oh, nice. I thought you'd meant because you didn't, you're like, I just don't want to make any of the recipes.
+
+[25:51] That's what I think. Yeah, exactly. So I just haven't seen anything yet. But um I had one when I was in uh this great cocktail bar in Austin had kind of like a flamed rosemary. I think it also had some gin and cherry, which would be good, but just kind of wanted to pick your brain about a good uh holiday party cocktail.
+
+[26:07] Okay, so but you're looking to do you're looking to do like large format. I think so, just for the sake of ease of service. Um I would be willing to do something visual, you know, but I don't want to spend all my time behind the bar. I don't want to be able to hang out myself a little bit. What do you what do you have for equipment?
+
+[26:28] Uh no, no liquid nitrogen, nothing like that. Pretty standard bar equipment, but uh a good a good variety. Do you have a circulator? I do, yeah. All right.
+
+[26:38] So this doesn't okay. So first of all, like I don't really in the book, so you're you're not missing anything for this application. In the book, I don't have any really kind of large format drinks there. Um like typically, like when I do large format, I'm doing more like uh figuring out how to do like pitcher at a time stirred drinks, which is like super easy, right? You just put your you put the the undiluted um mix in in uh in soda bottles in like you know, one liter soda bottles, and you squeeze all the air.
+
+[27:10] Let's say we're gonna do Manhattan's, right? You squeeze out all of the air, uh, and then uh you know, close them off, and then you throw them in your in your freezer, you know, like the day before or two days before, whatever, and then they just chill down, and you just have to figure out the ratios beforehand. I'm pretty sure you can get it from the look inside on Amazon. Uh, and then uh because the the recipe is there, and then uh you just have a like a big picture of ice water, and then you pull out your you pull out your your mixing picture at the last minute, and you're like blam, and now you have like you know, uh a liter and a half of uh Manhattan's that someone can pour out instantly, right? So that's you know one way to do it where you're you know basically you know you're not spending any time mixing drinks, but you're busting stuff out that's at a high caliber like a Manhattan.
+
+[27:55] But I don't think that's what you're looking to do. I think you're looking to get a bowl that anyone can serve themselves uh stuff. So I don't really have any large format recipes that I make mainly because I had a bunch of friends who were doing it, and so I I didn't like I don't know, I just didn't do it. I I should have done it. So what I would do is read uh David Wonderwich's book on punch to figure out kind of what flavor profiles you want to make, and then I would worry about the problem of chilling, which I could help you out with.
+
+[28:20] So one of the things that uh you know Nastasia and Backman Piper used to work is uh with us is they used to do this thing called uh the wine zombie, and they also had like other different kinds of zombies, and they had a Santa Claus uh that puked up uh holiday uh holiday beverage. So there's a if you have circuit if you have a circulator, right? So what they would do is we they would take a circulator and they would shove a pipe onto the outlet of the circulator and have it either coming out of a zombie's mouth, in which case it would be puking some sort of red cocktail or you know, blood stuff, or they would stick it into uh, you know, have it coming out of Santa's mouth, and then it would be like Santa puking up all the eggnog because he ate too many cookies, right? I mean, this is the theory of operation. So you don't need to go through all of that of having like a Santa head.
+
+[29:04] Am I accurate, Stas? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Puking Santa. And you actually recorded uh your friend uh Phil uh doing like kind of deep like Grinch-like Santa vomiting noises. I'm not recommending you do this for your holiday party, by the way.
+
+[29:17] Anyways, but uh this is a technique we use all the time to keep things cold without diluting. So what you do is is you take uh your circulator, you drop it into the bucket with a couple chunks of dry ice, and then you set the circulator at whatever temperature you want the cocktail to be, and it will just keep it at that temperature. It won't get too cold and it won't get too hot, and you can just keep your punch at the accurate level that you want it to have. Now, if you really want to go through it, you could have a bowl with a drain and you can have it coming like a fountain, so someone could put a cup under it, and then they wouldn't necessarily see the dry ice or any of that. It wouldn't look all high-tech or anything like this, right?
+
+[29:52] So that's that's a technique you can do. Um, or another good thing is if you want to do a hot beverage, like if you want to do like a mulled wine, right? It's cold in Chicago, right? So circulator is great for a mulled wine. So, you know, you just do like a like a glug, right?
+
+[30:08] So there you can take like, and it's great for parties. You take uh uh you take your red wine. I think we usually use like something that's pretty dry, like a cab, uh, and you and you know, and port, right? So you're mixing port and something like a cab, uh, and you throw all your spices in. If you want it to taste sweetish, make sure that you that make sure that along with the allspice and cinnamon and clove, make sure and and orange peels and all that, make sure you throw in a hell hefty dose of cardamom, right?
+
+[30:33] Otherwise, you know, what the hell's wrong with you? You know what I'm saying? So you cook that, you cook that stuff down, uh, and then you know, you you boil it, and then you re-fortify it afterwards with you let it sit overnight, and then you re-fortify it with Aqua Vete or with, you know, vodka if you're so inclined, uh, and that and then you correct for salt and any kind of sugar balances that you want. Uh, and then that is great, you know, with a circulator just keeping it hot, uh and and just you know keep keeps it going, and that that's a that's another good one. These are any of these uh good suggestions, I can't tell.
+
+[31:04] Yeah, sure. Any uh the the sort of medium format was good. I hadn't thought about yeah, yeah, medium format's great because then you know they'll stay actually pretty good. The Manhattans will stay pretty good, especially it depends on how nice you want the service to be. You can you can make large format Manhattans out of your freezer like that and then pour them into Stanley thermoses and they'll stay pretty close to service temperature.
+
+[31:29] Uh if you've pre-chilled the Stanley, that is. You know what I mean? Like they'll stay pretty close to service temperature for a long time. So if you have a couple of Stanley pitchers there, you can have like thermoses of Manhattan that stay at pretty much the correct Manhattan temperature for a good while. Yep.
+
+[31:46] Yep. I didn't even mention that in the book, but I should have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[31:50] Another good one? Give you one last good one. Here's another good one. If you're gonna do something like uh bottled drinks, right? So you can bottle a drink that's not necessarily uh punch, right?
+
+[31:59] And then um, like you know, cap it like you would a and this is also means you don't have to have as much glassware if you're will willing to let people drink it out of the bottle. Depends on you, right? And then uh you have like individual cap bottles and you uh do salt and the ice, right? Don't do too much or you'll freeze them, right? So you have to like you know, kind of measure it out or do a test beforehand, and then just throw all the bottles into the salted ice like they were beer, and then people pull the cocktails and and then they're great.
+
+[32:25] You know what I mean? That's cool. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.
+
+[32:33] Cool. Well, uh, you know, tweet on out. Let us know what happened. Let us know how it worked out. Thanks, Block.
+
+[32:38] Appreciate it. Nice. I wish we were having a uh wish we were having a holiday party. We could. You are the boss.
+
+[32:45] Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the boss. Not really. Heritage Radio is having a holiday party.
+
+[32:51] Oh. Just rub it in. Why not? Oh, we're having our holiday party with Peter next Monday. Yeah, we were supposed to have a holiday party, right?
+
+[32:57] Which is kind of partially Booker and DAX, partially museum of food and drink, and like one third of the party was like, I have a meeting, crap on you. That's our life. That's our life. Can I promote the heritage one? It's uh this it's tomorrow, actually, at a place called Tandem Bar in Bushwick.
+
+[33:12] Open to the public too. So if anybody wants to come meet the hosts. Tandem? Yeah, no, it's free. Um yeah, tandem.
+
+[33:18] It's called Tandem Bar. Like one in front of the other. Right. Are there in fact two bars, one in front of the other? Uh no.
+
+[33:25] Okay. And did you notice how Stas immediately went to negative and was assuming that you were charging people? No, I thought it was for the fundamental holiday fund. No, this is the Oh man, I was going to make a joke. It's the fundraiser.
+
+[33:36] Oh what's up? We got a new punster. We got a new punster out there. That's good. Yeah.
+
+[33:42] Oh, by the way. Yeah, okay. I'm not gonna get it. So it's in Bushwick, Tandem Bar. Uh we'll be there from 6 PM until the very bitter end of the night.
+
+[33:49] Whoa. Yeah, we've got DJs and all kinds of stuff. So at what point does it shift like to 100% hipsters? Uh that'd be like 10 PM. Okay, cool.
+
+[33:58] So if you want the pre scheduled. Yeah, if you want to if you want to do the if you want to like, you know, miss the hipster rush, come early, right? That's right. That's what you're saying. All right.
+
+[34:06] Hipster. Are you gonna get your uh I everyone who's listened to the past couple episodes knows that uh there's a new per there's always someone at Roberta's that look, when we're doing this show, basically we're in a shipping container that has been covered with wood to look like you're in a wood cabin on the inside of it. Jack, accurate or not? Accurate. Okay.
+
+[34:25] Outside, corrugated metal shipping container. Inside, you know, it looks like we could be at that USDA inspected abattoir. Because it's like uh, you know, a totally wood cabin on the inside. Um but there's a giant window that faces directly onto I'm looking at Roberta's Eaters now, and like right now there's you know, there's this date going on, the guy's chewing his thumbnail, and the lady's got her chin on, you know, on her chin, you know, hand, so we're trying to try to figure out I think it's going well, no? He's trying to look like he's paying attention to what she's saying.
+
+[34:55] They know each other. Yeah, anyways, this is what we like so when we're doing the radio show, like this is what's happening. So we obviously make comments about the people that we see, and especially like, you know, returned people, which are usually the Roberta staff, right? Hitler's little elf or whatever he's called. Well, that's kind of a rough.
+
+[35:10] So that's we call him Santa's hipster. Oh, right, yeah, wow. Santa's little hipster. Yeah. Hitler's elf.
+
+[35:16] That's crazy. What's wrong with you? You're brain damaged. Nastasia. This is where you probably guys get some some knowledge from what we're dealing with here.
+
+[35:23] Nastasia is a deeply damaged person. You just don't get to hear what Dave says off air. What? Uh-huh. No, I said he he might look like he's like got some sort of like whatever.
+
+[35:37] Whatever. He whatever. I'm not going to get into it. He's got a multicolored beard. He does have a multicolored beard, but he looks, he looks like he's out of the Rudolph, like the red nosed reindeer set.
+
+[35:48] He kind of looks like Hermy. Yo, he does. A little more Teutonic, which is where Stas is getting that from. A lot more Teutonic. And like, because his beard is very, very neat, but it's dyed.
+
+[35:58] Santa's little hipster. Anyway. Do you know him, Jack? No. Okay.
+
+[36:02] I mean, you know, I say hi every day, but. I feel bad. We're talking about him like he's not even a human being. Here he is working. Whatever.
+
+[36:09] Can you talk more about milk washing tea vodka and if it's possible to do it in the home setting? Cheers, Chris. Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
+
+[36:16] So if you go to the uh, it's totally easy to do at home. So let's say let's go super home, right? Take your tea, put it into the vodka, let it steep for a long time until it's nice and dark, then add it to the milk, just like it has in the recipe. The milk is going to um bind with some of the polyphenols in the tea and remove some of the astringency, right? Let it sit there for a minute.
+
+[36:37] Then I add citric acid, right? 15% citric acid solution, but you can add, so I add about uh uh I think it's uh about 15 um 15 uh milliliters of that to a liter uh of uh vodka or to seven fifty, you know, whatever I'm doing, about about 15 mils. So you could get away then with instead of 15 mils of that, you could get away with an ounce, right? Right out of a jigger of lemon juice. And it won't be quite as much acid, but it'll be pretty close.
+
+[37:06] Make sure you strain it beforehand. Um really strain it. And then uh so you stir, remember always to stir the uh vodka into the milk, otherwise it'll curdle if you do it the other way around. And then remember to wait a wait a little bit and then add the um add the lemon juice, stir it. It should break, you'll see it curdle up, and then just cover it uh and let it sit for like an hour.
+
+[37:29] And oh, remember in the book I show you to like take the spoon and slowly move the this is a key step that I think people um don't do, and it's not as important if you have a centrifuge, but if you don't, this is super key. Take uh a spoon after you've added after it started curdled and just kind of move, don't stir it like a lunatic, just move the curds around. And what's happening is is it you're sweeping the curds through the liquid, and the curds are agglomerating together and getting bigger and bigger, and you're kind of mopping up the casein that's kind of left and hasn't agglomerated into big particles yet. So just kind of move it, wait a couple of minutes, move it around again, say, move everything together slowly, and then do that for you know every couple of minutes for a little while, and then let it sit. And you'll notice that uh you're gonna start getting a lot of very clear liquid, and you're gonna be getting curds.
+
+[38:19] At that point, you can just strain it through a paper towel. I wouldn't strain it through uh I wouldn't strain it through uh a coffee filter at the first go because it's just gonna take for freaking ever. I would strain it through either very fine uh you know uh linen napkin or a uh a paper a regular paper towel uh because they're a lot coarser. And then if you want to get it clearer, you can go through a coffee filter. But you're not even gonna lose that much, it works fine.
+
+[38:44] It's a little more complicated than using a centrifuge, but not really. I actually did it at the last demo I did live just to show people that it wasn't that hard. Anyway, okay, there you go. Um Stasia, Dave, Jack, and the rest. How do you like that one?
+
+[39:02] The rest. The rest. The rest. Uh this is from Brandon Bird in Chicago. Uh this year I did uh an injection brine on our Thanksgiving turkey, and it turned out great.
+
+[39:11] I know that some folks out there, e.g. J. Kenji Alt Lopez, uh Lopez Alt, uh, are anti-brine because it just adds water. Uh but I was intrigued by Dave's technique of injecting turkey stock rather than just salty water. My question is whether or not Dave uses a high gelatin uh pressure cooked stock or a lighter, more watery version.
+
+[39:30] I keep lots of gelatinous stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting a bird with the equivalent of a salty turkey jello, salty turkey jello, or if you want to sell it, if you want to sell salty turkey jello, call it aspic. Although no American, but if you want to sell it in France, you're gonna you sell it as aspic, right? Because but in American, no one wants something that has the word ass and pick together that they're gonna eat. You know what I mean? Ass pick.
+
+[39:54] Sounds nasty. And you also have to clarify it. Hmm, hmm, aspic. And also in France, I don't know that they'd be eating a turkey aspic. They're like, Dandon, as pique to denton.
+
+[40:04] I don't think they would buy that. You know what I'm saying? Isn't Dandon turkey in French? I don't know. No, no, someone will tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure I am.
+
+[40:11] Anyway, um, I keep lots of gelatinous stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting the bird with the coconut salty turkey jello would negatively impact the texture or brine absorption of the meat. Best Brandon Bird Chicago. Well, I don't know. Uh I did, I used a gelatinous hardcore uh pressure cooked stock with like a boat ton of wings, the entire carcass of the of the bird. Um and I started with I start with chicken stock.
+
+[40:37] I might have started I think I started with water. I started with water. Um but yeah, it was gelatinous, in other words, it's self-set. But I injected it, um I injected it at room temp, right? So I did it uh, or even a little warm.
+
+[40:51] I did it right, did I do it right before? I did it very soon before I did the cook, right? So I salted the meat uh beforehand, and then I didn't super salty the um the stock. I just salted it a little more than regular stock, which is completely unsalted, right? Uh, and so I injected it and then cooked it very, very soon thereafter.
+
+[41:17] So I don't know if you did it like days before what would happen, but no one noticed any sort of jellowness to the to the meat, you know, and it tasted delicious. Everyone's I mean, people they liked that injected flavor better than they liked it when I did it all low temp, you know, with the um with the uh what do we call that one? What do we call the exoskeleton bird? Bionic turkey. Yeah, bionic turkey.
+
+[41:44] So anyway. So I don't know. I don't know technically, but I know my results were good, and I did use a gelatinous stock. Oh, we've never taken a break, have we? No, we're reaching the end.
+
+[41:53] You want to take a quick break or do you want to blast through? We'll blast through. Let's blast through. Okay. Uh Jeremy writes in Hi, my parents have sent us a giant rib roost for Christmas dinner, but I'm stressed about cooking such a big and expensive piece of meat.
+
+[42:07] I'm curious if it makes sense to cook it low temp. Uh the center would be done perfectly, but how would the crust be with only a short blast in the oven? I have a circulator, a cerezal, and a normal residential oven. In short, how would you cook it? Thanks very much, Jeremy.
+
+[42:21] Alright, well, here's what I would do. Um I would. I've told this story a bunch, but one time I did uh a low temp on a on a rib roast and then um just did a quick finish off on the outside, and it was terrible because it's a huge, the huge interior of the meat is all the same doneness, and it turns out that you want you like rib roast, right, Sus? And what's your favorite part? I don't know.
+
+[42:49] You don't know, Jack, do you like rib roast? Sure. What's your favorite part? But the favorite part would be though. I know mine.
+
+[42:54] You know the outside part part of it. So like, you know, the rib, there's the eye, and then there's that layer of like fatty, like layered like decaly stuff that goes around it. You know what I'm talking about? Can you picture a rib in your in your mind? There's the the bone, then there's the eye that's attached directly to the bone, and then there's that thing that wraps around it.
+
+[43:12] Yeah, right. That part, when it's overcooked and all crunchy on the outside, and the fat's all crunchy, that's my favorite part of it. That's good, you're right. It's my favorite part. Is it properly cooked?
+
+[43:21] No, it's overcooked. Is it my favorite part? Yeah. So, you know, you don't want and a rib roast, you kind of need that, but what you don't want is to lose the ends of the rib because they're overcooked, and you don't want the main eye to be overcooked. In fact, you don't want that eye to be overcooked at all.
+
+[43:37] So here is what I would do. This is the technique I would use. I would um, and in fact, this is what I do do. I uh usually cut the um cut the roast off of the bone, right? Then I low temp the entire rib roast, and then I I cook the bones down.
+
+[43:58] Then I uh kind of but you don't have to remove the bone, but I do just because it's I uh the last time I did it, I couldn't fit it all in. Then normally what I'll do is I'll take the low temp cooked uh rib roast and I'll tie it back to the bone, right, after it's cooled down. Now you have the center of the rib totally nicely done. And now I'm not talking a short blast in the oven, just you can turn the oven higher than you normally would, and then you throw the rib roast in there, tied back to the bone, and then you get uh you so it's adds protection. Then you get the roasted flavor of the of the of the rib bones, which all you know, all bone gnars love, right?
+
+[44:37] Are you a bone gnar stuzz? No, Jack Bone Gnar. Uh yes. Well, I mean, you know, if it's good stuff. Yeah, and also if it's dry aged, you know, you don't want to necessarily like low temp it with the bone on because it's gonna really infuse too much kind of dry edge flavor.
+
+[44:51] Okay. So then you're looking at just doing instead of cooking it for hours and hours, you're looking at like a 45 or you know, minute or hour at a high temperature. And yeah, you're overcooking the outside of the meat, but that's kind of what you want. And that's what I would do. And then I would pull it out, and if you have any places that don't have a good looking crust on it, when it's all said and done, uh just hit it with the cerez all just to like crust up the outside and and you're done.
+
+[45:11] What do you think stuff? That's how I would do it. And in fact, how I have done it. Um okay. Uh boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.
+
+[45:20] Next question. Hammer and the nails. Not sure if this is still the right email to use, but I was listening to the recent episode on making stock in the venting slash non venting pressure cookers versus a stock pot, where we had said that uh, you know, I don't know why the venting pressure cookers um so you know the theory is you know, in my experience, if you use a pressure cooker like Coon Recon that doesn't vent, that it makes a superior stock to traditional stock in an open kettle. Uh, and that if you use a venting pressure cooker, i.e. one that like sprays out uh steam as it goes, that in fact it makes a stock that tastes inferior to even an open kettle and vastly inferior to the Coon Recon style.
+
+[45:59] Anyway, um I think the answer lies in the higher temperature and the venting pressure cooker, increasing the volatilization of aromatic chemicals, preferably over the rest. In other words, like more than the the getting rid of the nice aromatics more than the other ones. Since by their nature, they tend to have a fairly low boiling points, leading to the flavor venting off to the room. I'm also guessing if you captured the steam and condensed it out, you'd find a rather larger set of flavor-causing aromatics than you would get from the stock pot due to that effect. Anyway, love the show.
+
+[46:27] Hope you make it back out to Seattle sometime. Mike, I don't know. Don't know. Don't know. Someone will have to run the test and tell me.
+
+[46:33] All right. Got two questions in from the Twitter that I said I would answer. Here we go. Uh at said walking drunk wrote me and said, Do you have a time temperature recommendation for low temperature lamb hearts? I don't, but I'll tell you uh, you know, I don't cook enough uh mammal hearts, although I love, you know, my I love a chicken heart, does you like chicken hearts?
+
+[46:53] Jack, chicken hearts? Yeah, actually I I tried them and they're really good. Like on a skewer. Yeah, they are like like, okay, so it like like in terms of parts of a chicken, right? You got in my in my estimation, you got the skins and the hearts are right up there, and then you got like the meat afterwards.
+
+[47:13] You know what I mean? First the dark meat, then the light meat. Light meat's like down, down. They got the chicken feet somewhere in there near the near the light meat. Anyway, um I love chicken hearts.
+
+[47:24] But anyway, lamb hearts. Um so here's the issue, right? M heart muscle is n is chewy, right? And that's kind of what I like about chicken hearts because the size of them and duck hearts, the size of them is very nice. So when you eat one, you can get a kind of a crusty thing on the outside and it's chewy.
+
+[47:44] And it's that chewiness, that very chewiness that I enjoy. Right? So question is like what are you trying to do? You're trying to make it unchewy or not? Because it's gonna be chewy if you low temp it.
+
+[47:58] So your only choice then is to low temp it for so long that you're actually getting protein breakdown uh in in the muscle. So you're gonna have to cook it for days. You know days to get it to and then it might not taste good anymore because it might not taste chewy. From a temperature standpoint, I think you could cook it at whatever you would normally cook uh you know that stuff at so like anywhere between 55 and 57 depending on how you want it to be I would uh I would probably probably go somewhere like 55 56 for that but you're talking now you're gonna have to I would I do is I would take I would take three bags four bags five bags and I would cook uh one for 24 hours I would cook one for 48 hours one for 72 hours and then one maybe even for whatever four days is in hours and then uh pull them uh chill them and then uh deep fry them all because or roast them because you still need a crust on the outside you know what I'm saying Jack you want you want an an uncrusted uh heart no no but for testing I wouldn't do that. For testing I would just re-therm them and taste the meat to see what the texture taste is like before you make them all taste good by by crusting them up.
+
+[49:09] But I I would I would I would test that uh and see kind of uh whether or not you get a good result. And if you do do that, I would definitely tweet in and tell me what happened so that I can figure out whether or not it was um whether or not it was good or it was bad. I was gonna say too duck heart, maybe one of the most delicious things I've ever had too. Yeah, you like it the duck heart? Yeah.
+
+[49:28] Duck heart is duck heart is good. Well I got one more quick one. All right. Uh at Zhang Road in cooking issues. Any tips for keeping buffon cut from getting soggy bottom.
+
+[49:40] Soggy bottom's gross word, right? Yep. Yeah. Uh venting doesn't seem to help venting the the pastry. So we're talking about beef wrapped in uh in a crust.
+
+[49:49] Uh cooking issues, uh I I also won't have a circulator with me to avoid moisture loss from the meat. And the duck cells, the duck cells is you know the mixed kind of uh mushroom cooked mushroomslash uh you know shallot or whatever mixture cooked chopped up that you put with these things or with like you know with a beef wellington or with uh you know buffon cut or something like this. Uh the duck sells are cooked as dry as possible. All right. Here are my recommendations for it.
+
+[50:12] Uh I really would, if you could do a uh pre-cook on the meat uh so that you're not getting as much drip loss. Like that's really the only thing that's gonna save you here is preventing the drip loss out of the meat, which is causing the bottom of the crust to be soggy. So obviously if I had a circulator, I would uh sear the hell out of the outside of the meat. I would then circulate it till it was done, cool it down, wrap it in puff pastry, and then stick that puff pastry in a really, really hot oven just to or not really really hot, but h like like hot enough to cook the puff pastry without really cooking the meat that much, and that way you're gonna get a nicely cooked puff pastry. 'Cause even no matter what, even if you don't get a lot of moisture loss, you're gonna get a little bit of gumminess around it.
+
+[50:55] Now the duck cells is there to provide a barrier so that you don't have that much problem, right? And it's a thermal barrier. So, like a lot of dry duck cells around is gonna cause is gonna help you. However, they're not that absorbent. So you're not you're still as the juices drip out of a raw piece of meat down into the into the bed of the puff pastry, it's gonna get soggy and no amount of venting is gonna happen help that.
+
+[51:19] I'm presuming you're saying soggy, you said soggy on the bottom, yeah. Soggy bottoms. Now, this is not traditional and might not even taste good, but if you were to line the bottom underneath it with dry rusks. You like the word rusk? Sure.
+
+[51:34] Rusks. Like some sort of like dried uh biscuit or bread. It could maybe act like a sponge and a thermal barrier, right? So you could get good cook off of your pastry so it's not soggy, so it's uh starts out life nicely, and then also that could absorb some of the like bloody juices as they come in. Maybe it's texturally good, maybe it's textually bad, but that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head because that Twitter just came in.
+
+[51:57] Uh let us know whether you like these ideas or what's going on. Uh do the 12 days of steering, uh join Heritage Radio Network. If I don't talk to you, happy the holidays cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[52:21] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C three nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. It's Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Bushwig Brooklyn and the Heritage Radio Network, Roberta's Pizzeria. Happy New Year. And we got, as usual, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[0:43] Good. And uh just Jack in the booth today. Just Jack. Wow. I didn't mean it like that, Jack.
+
+[0:49] I meant it like that. Just Jack. Um well, happy new year to everyone. Uh and uh this is the first time we've been together. Actually, I haven't seen you, Nastasia, since I saw you briefly.
+
+[1:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you know, not really so uh we gotta talk about uh Jack, let's start with you. What do you what do you do for the uh food wise for the uh for all the various uh holidays? Food wise, well, let's see. I I can't really say anything great about the holiday meals I had, but I did have an awesome meal at North End Grill with my girlfriend and had some really delicious ramen.
+
+[1:21] Went to Hai Chen, the place by Toto. Yeah. That was really good. Toto the toilet manufacturer. Yeah.
+
+[1:27] They make ramen now too. Nice. Pretty good. Toto does make fine toilets though. Different people.
+
+[1:32] Yeah, different people. Toto, the world's finest toilet seats, in my estimation. Stasy That's true. Yeah, right? It's good stuff.
+
+[1:39] I think by the way, for those of you that don't know, Japanese toilets are by far and away the greatest toilets that I've ever used in my life. Light years ahead of uh of our American toilets. And uh, you know, as a farm to toilet devotee, I think we often in our cooking endeavors don't pay enough attention to the toilet aspect of it. And yeah, and I am and I've said this I think before on the air. You did.
+
+[2:03] This was your response to the slow food uh event we had. Right. But I'm personally ashamed as an American that we don't have native toilet seat technology that anywhere approaches what they have in Japan. It's just it's just uh an embarrassment. Speaking of Japan, I have to say I got a bottle of the Yamazaki scotch.
+
+[2:23] Oh, that is a delicious product. It's damn good, yeah. Delicious. Not much smoke, but I don't mind. It was really good.
+
+[2:28] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh yeah, I love the Yamazaki. I love which one did you get? The twelve.
+
+[2:34] Yeah. The Habiki also all those. Do you know that those guys bought Jim Beam? Isn't that weird? Yeah.
+
+[2:39] Weird, right? Weird world is weird. What about you, Stas? What what about how's your uh holiday food stuff? It's friends and family, so they don't care about food.
+
+[2:46] Wow. Nothing spectacular. Like what do you have on the Christmas? Nastasi was in Connecticut for Christmas. What'd you have?
+
+[2:52] For Christmas. Uh I don't know. It was that on the Oh no, it was steak. Yeah. Overcoat.
+
+[3:00] Yeah. Uh yeah. Dr. Oh, I have to shout out. No, no, no.
+
+[3:03] It was actually okay. Yeah. Yeah. Uh where's your shout out, Jack? Greenpoint fish and lobster.
+
+[3:07] I forgot. I went and bought oysters and rainbow trout for my dad's Christmas Eve. And it was really good. Nice. How do you do the rainbow trout?
+
+[3:15] Um broiled. Yeah? Good? Yeah, it was it was pretty it was good. Hard to mess up.
+
+[3:20] It was a good good piece of fish. Jack, was it dry? It wasn't. It wasn't that dry. Look, trout is one of those things that um, like for instance, the taste of smoked trout, love.
+
+[3:33] Love, love taste of smoked trout. Always too dry. Even with the oil that's in it, whatever. And let me handle it with uh Peter. Where at Russian place?
+
+[3:42] Was that trout? I don't I don't know. I couldn't remember what it was. Was it dry? No, I don't think it was dry.
+
+[3:47] Smoked trout is is often dry, but you didn't smoke it, you just broiled it. I love trout. Trout's good. It's like one of the few kind of uh freshwatery kind of fishes that uh I enjoy. Jack, what's my least favorite freshwater fish?
+
+[3:58] Oh yeah. Yes. Salmon, right? No, tilap first of all, yeah, yeah. Yeah, first of all.
+
+[4:03] But you don't even eat that, so you can't. It's not like well, I it's like you know, it's the worst, as we all know. You know, I look forward my New Year's resolution is to stop other people from eating tilapia. There's gotta be some other like crap fish that they can grow in its own filth for almost nothing that tastes better, right? There's gotta be something.
+
+[4:26] Something. I don't know. Uh okay. Uh what did I have? Well, uh I had uh I bought two I bought an extremely large uh standing rib roast uh and I did my normal like uh took it off the bone, low tempted, chilled it, and then did a roast off.
+
+[4:42] And that was good. But then uh there was too many like everyone in my family was sick, like on both sides, everyone sick. So I cut it in half because there wasn't as many people eating it before I did the retherm on it, and then the second half I staked off into like ooh, I don't know, how big is this does? Is that like an inch and a half, inch and a half, somewhere around there, inch and a half between an inch and a half and two inches. I staked off the second half of the uh of the rib roast 'cause I got the full, you know, rib, right?
+
+[5:09] Uh and I actually you know what I have to say no matter what I like it better when it's staked off and seared each steak seared individually and then sliced the other way. I just think it's a lot better than eating the big slices of prime rib. As much as I loved the 70s and 80s, going to those crappy steakhouses and getting the big slice of prime rib, it's just always a little too cold in the center by the time you get to it. There's too much of that stuff. And then what are what are your thoughts on this?
+
+[5:36] Steak or staked off or or the whole prime rib? Staked off, I think. Steaked off? Definitely. Yeah, except for for sandwiches.
+
+[5:44] For sandwiches served cold, you want sta you want like the whole thing and then sliced very, very thinly. But you wouldn't really do that with a standing rib roast, because that's a freaking waste. You know what I'm saying? For a roast beef sandwich? Waste.
+
+[5:57] I don't know. Uh so anyway, but here's what one you like, Stas, because even though it's actually French, it's like close to Swiss. I guess maybe it could be Swiss too. You like roclettes? Mm-hmm.
+
+[6:06] So I did a I did a cheat, cheating and it's a good Sears all app, actually. I did a cheating uh roclet. But so you know how like roclette you got like the cornichon, right? And then you got the the boiled taters and whatever else you got, and then you melt the cheese on a broiler and then you scrape the crap off and then you put it on the stuff, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[6:24] But do you really want the potatoes to be boiled? Or do you would you prefer if they're roasted? Rested, I guess. Yeah, right. So I so I took the I I did uh what could I get a hold of?
+
+[6:32] I got a hold of the Yukons, uh, you know, planked them out, then roasted those suckers in the oven, drained off all the extra oil because roclets got its own, and then in and then so I then I put those out in the dish, grated the rocklet, and don't get angry, but I grated the roclette, right? Shredded rather, and then uh here's the thing: instead of the corny shelly, ready for it? Ready for it? Cocktail onions. The vinegared cocktail onions, because onions and taters, good, but I wanted something crunchy and kind of vinegary to offset the fact that I was about to dump like a boatload of like super heavy, like you know, full fat cheese on top of that some gun.
+
+[7:04] So I did the roasted taters, then the uh the uh cocktail onions, rocklet, sears all, bueno, bueno, muy bueno. You could have done it in the oven if you didn't have a Sears all, but Cerez all just toasted up the cheese, ness and ness. I think that's about it. I don't think I did anything. Oh, New Year's I did the Zampone.
+
+[7:23] You know Zampone from from Modena, which is the whole pig's foot. Like uh you gouge out all the meat in the pig's foot, then you stuff it with the same sausage mix that you would have uh cotaquino in, and then uh did that with lentils. That was nice, and then on New Year's proper, right? I got first of all in the fine I shopped at the fine fair, which is my local kind of I don't know, I'm not I I've been shopping there for a long time, so I'm not gonna say anything negative about the fine fair people, but it ain't no fairway, it ain't no what is their motto again? Like no other market anyway.
+
+[7:51] It's like no other market, like no other market. That's you the story about like maybe 15 years ago when the fairway first moved it into uh West Harlem over there by the uh that's where my art studio used to be when I was in school, and more than 15 years ago, almost 18, 19 year anyway. So I'm there and there's this guy wandering around, literally wandering around fairway, going, not so special, not so special. Like like right on the border of homeless, that border right between homeless and not homeless. Not so special.
+
+[8:24] That's my memory of the homeless. Like uh at the time, like that was kind of a game-changing market. I'm like, well, dude, what does it take? Like, what does it take for you to think a market is special? They have like an indoor, like walk-in meat, and it wasn't like the the one I'm remembering like we have some kind of rough indoor refrigerated meat markets here in New York, like big apple down by you, rough, right?
+
+[8:45] Uh Western beef has that, right? Anyway, it's kind of awesome. So saying not so special, weird. Anyway, where I don't know where I was going with that. Oh, yeah.
+
+[8:52] So at my Fine Fair, I got the last bag of black-eyed peas in the whole place. The last, the very last one. To make what? You know what you Hopping John. You like Hopping John?
+
+[9:03] I don't know what that is. Oh my god. You take like your ham hocks or whatever, pork neck bones, whatever, smoked. Tarstrings. Uh yes.
+
+[9:10] Nastasia has the complete collection of Rudolph, the red nosed reindeer. The guys in the mail. The bumble. The bumble. Well, you have to buy all four.
+
+[9:18] So the four figurines are Santa Claus, uh Harmie, uh Rudolph, and just not happy in my work, I guess. That's well, you guys gotta know the show anyway. And uh Hermie Yukon Cornelius, yeah, and uh Santa, who's the weakest because he's such a jerk in that. Yeah, he really is. Yeah, until the end, right?
+
+[9:37] And then he's okay. He's like, No, Rudolph! You know what I mean? At the end, he's like fine, but like in the beginning, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, not really nice to the elves when they're singing to him. Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:47] You know. And then needs work. I have to go, right? Then he leaves, and then it's like he's just a jerk the whole time until the very end. Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:54] Anyway, but anyway, you buy all four figures, and then you send away and you get the bumble, which is the abominable snowman. And Stas has the entire entire bumble was shipping and handling though. Which is five. Yeah, it probably costs them two ninety-five to make, so they're breaking even. Mm-hmm.
+
+[10:09] Slick. Mm-hmm. Slick. Anyways. But wait, wait, we're talking oh, Hopping John.
+
+[10:12] So Hopping John is a traditional New Year's Day thing, and it's uh so you know, anyway, it's like ham hocks, I use pork neck bones, whatever. Uh, and you know, black eyed peas, and you you simmer that. I use I use both I use peppers, I use red and green peppers, and you just simmer the heck out of that, and then you you eat you know onions, obviously. I had a little garlic, I don't know if you're supposed to. I added a little thyme, I don't know if you're supposed to.
+
+[10:37] Um and just you know, simmer that until that's done, and the cornbread and the collard greens. That was good. Delicious. Collard greens, money, hop and John, I think also money or luck, and then the cornbread gold. New year, right?
+
+[10:50] That's why the day before with the Zampone, right? You supposed to the classic accompaniment for that in it for the Italian would be lentils. Lentils also, little coins. Mm-hmm. Money.
+
+[11:02] Money. Money. Okay. Uh I have a caller who's been patiently waiting. Well, what do you tell me?
+
+[11:08] Caller, you're on the air. Hey, I have a question for you about the spears all. Okay. Um, I have been loving mine so far. I've taken it camping.
+
+[11:17] I use it in my office, make like eggs and where do you live? A little bit of burnout on the screen. Okay. Where do you where do you where do you live, first of all? What's that?
+
+[11:26] Where do you live? Uh Jacksonville, Florida. Oh, nice. Okay. Um, and so I was wondering if it's possible to I mean, I know it'll avoid me warranty or whatever, but if I switch the metal screens out for like molybdenum mesh or something, if that will mitigate the um the bulging and burnout.
+
+[11:46] Okay, on the rear screen. Uh I don't know, either or. Well, the front screen, if the rear screen doesn't have a problem, the front screen's never gonna have a problem. Okay. I mean, that's that's just like that's like the truth.
+
+[12:00] There's a r I forget why. There is a reason that we don't use um molybdenum. I forget what it is, why we don't use it. Um I researched a a bunch of met I guess this is as good a time to say as we're looking into the possibility of the metal you want to use in in to plate. First of all, you don't want to make an entire screen out of uh one of the different metals because most of them don't have the strength to uh stand up to stuff, you know, things the the way that um you know, like a conthal or a or a 693 is going to.
+
+[12:40] But um, you know, what you're really looking to do is plate with a metal typically. And so what we're looking at is uh palladium. Palladium is what you want to use. Uh for its um it's high high but high temperature and um food safe because you know they they use like that series of metals in um in things like dental work. So you like you want something like that.
+
+[13:08] And so we're looking into um we're looking into the possibility of making uh palladium-coated rear screens uh that would be just a straight swap out in the Searsol. So, you know, if you happen to know a metal uh plater, they could plate your rear screen in palladium for you if you can't wait for us to do it. And if the rear screens coated in palladium, um then nothing else is ever gonna happen to it. It won't cook any different, obviously. But um anyway, so that's kind of like long and short what we're looking what we're looking at um doing is doing that, and then you know, we anticipate that you would never have to replace the um uh the rears.
+
+[13:54] And the fronts you would only have to replace if you smashed them into something or something like this. Now, uh you know, if you were plating one or two, you know, you might as well just plate the front and rear because why the heck not? It's gonna cost you I doubt they're gonna charge you any more for plating two screens than they do one, because I'm sure most of the cost is gonna be the setup time. But that's what I would that's what I would do. The crucial thing with the rear screens or the front and the rear screens is getting the spacing somewhat correct.
+
+[14:24] So if you were to get a rear screen out of uh you know some other uh mesh, but you didn't have the same kind of percentage of open area, or you didn't have you know the that fundamental kind of uh relationship correct, then it would um it would cause problems. I wouldn't worry about the warranty too much, you know what I mean. Right, okay. Is it making any sense? I forget why off the top of my head why I ruled out molybdenum.
+
+[14:52] I I mean because I looked into all of those. I forget why. Um but yeah, I mean the one to go for is uh palladium. Okay. Can you can you just get solid palladium screen somewhere, or do you have to get a plate at the same time?
+
+[15:07] Only if you're constructed out of money. I don't think any I don't I don't know of any I don't know of anyone that makes palladium wire. Uh I'm sure maybe somebody does, but um I don't know anyone that makes it, but it the cost would be intense. You know what I mean? Maybe again, not for one screen.
+
+[15:24] Like if you can get someone to send you a sample, then maybe fine, but like there's no way that I could of like there's no way that I could ever afford to make like solid plate like the palladium screen, that one screen would cost more, probably as much or more than the rest of the Sears all combined. You know what I'm saying? Um you know, as is, 693 is kind of spendy, and then it's like 693 costs a lot more than Conthal does, which is the which is the metal that the mo m most of the screens are made out of. Um yeah, and I you know I looked into just the per pound cost on palladium, and it's just bananas. And then furthermore, you'd have to get it probably have to get custom wire made and then a custom cloth woven out of it and then making the screens out of it.
+
+[16:10] So it's just really expensive. Whereas like plating, you you're you know, you're paying for the setup cost and then for the thickness of palladium that's coated onto your onto your screens, which is you know not that much. Okay. And palladium is very, very, very corrosion resistant. And uh very high, very high temperature and you know, uh rated, fairly easy.
+
+[16:33] Uh doesn't um you know I've done scratch tests on it and all this other stuff, and it's it's uh it it's it's pretty it's pretty good. Again, it doesn't change the cooking of it at all. It's just gonna protect that rear screen from um having too much deformation, and if the rear screen gets deformed too much, that's when you start seeing problems with your front screen. Okay, I gotcha, cool. All right.
+
+[16:59] That was that's the perfect answer. Thank you. All right, thank you. All right. Um what are we talking about for guitar strings?
+
+[17:09] Yeah, no, I think you're going into the questions. Oh, we were about to go into the questions? Yeah. Oh, nice. All right, cool.
+
+[17:13] Uh well, you know what? Today, it's not mainly questions, it's people giving us feedback on stuff that that you know, which I like. It's like new year feedback, which I appreciate. Um this in from uh James uh Nazaroff. Um, I think.
+
+[17:31] Um, hey Dave, uh Nastasia, and wow, insert names here. Well, it's just Jack today. Just Jack. Uh I just wanted to uh uh write a follow-up to my Twitter question last week on how to keep the bottom of a buffan cruit from getting soggy. Remember that?
+
+[17:46] He was doing the uh the the beef tenderloin wrapped in the in the in the pastry and then cooking in soggy bottoms, which is like soggy bottoms. You hate is that was that the name of George Clooney's group in that in that movie, Ho Brother, Where Art Thou? Soggy Bottoms. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[18:01] He doesn't strike me as a Cohen Brothers kind of a. I don't know. Jack doesn't strike me as a Cohen Brothers. He's more of a Corn Brothers character, less of a Corn Brothers watcher. Yeah.
+
+[18:07] No, I'm a huge Cohn Brothers fan. Yeah? What were the name of those guys? Soggy Bottom Boys? Soggy Bottom Boys, yeah.
+
+[18:12] Yeah. Anyway. That wasn't my favorite. I like that movie a lot, but it's not my favorite. You didn't like all the like the you didn't like the allegory aspect of it.
+
+[18:18] You did. No, I really haven't done a film I don't like, but I really like a serious man. No one else loves that, but I like that. Which one's that one? Um there weren't too many known actors.
+
+[18:27] Just kind of uh, and there's no real plot. I guess that's why people didn't like it. When was it? It was probably like four years ago. Oh yeah.
+
+[18:35] See, that's I haven't like, you know, you gotta go way further back for me to know I've seen them all. You know what I'm saying? Like okay. Uh the challenges posed were thus. There was a six-hour drive ahead of us.
+
+[18:46] I was unable to bring equipment, namely my circulator. And the tenderloin to be cooked was at the final destination already. This is an interesting problem. Although, you can always actually bring your circulator. I've done it.
+
+[18:58] Although maybe it's maybe they don't want. Maybe like you maybe you're dealing with someone like my stepfather Gerard who's like, uh, the mishigash, what the heck? You know what I mean? Stas knows these people. Your family's like that, right?
+
+[19:07] They give you problems. Problems. All right, I understand that. Uh the home kitchen I was to be using had limited equipment and the absolute worst electric range ever. And by worst, I mean it's 40 years old, has hot spots all over the oven, and only two burners seem to be able to draw any power if the oven is on.
+
+[19:24] That does suck. That's crap. And I suppose they didn't have enough ventilation for you to just throw logs into the freaking oven and light them on fire. That would be sweet. Anyway, um, don't do that ever.
+
+[19:34] Anyway, uh, I have made the uh buffon croot for several Christmases running, each being uh each being progressively made from larger portions of tenderloin. Last year was two-thirds of the muscle, and this year was the whole dang thing. I added dang. Dan was me. Uh despite using the same method, the the larger the cut, it seemed the softer and wetter the bottom had become.
+
+[19:51] That's because that's interesting. I wonder why. I wonder who I. Um soft and wetter the bottom had become. I didn't want to go to the root of cheating uh that so many recipes for Wellington suggests, and adding a layer of crepes between the pastry and the other ingredients.
+
+[20:06] Your suggestion of a layer of rusk didn't sound overly appealing either. I wanted to keep the flavor simple and knew the range I was to use would fight against me as much as possible. I took your advice and pre-cooked the tenderloin entirely. With an uneven oven, a lack of circulator, or large pieces of cookware to brown on. I browned the tenderloin carefully under the broiler, then brought it up uh to 130 uh in the core in a 300 degree oven, let it rest for 15 minutes, and then chilled it for four hours.
+
+[20:30] Alright, that's good. That's a good pre-cook, right? Pre-cook. She'd done. Uh the mushrooms and shallots were puree raw, which is interesting, and cooked long and slow in butta.
+
+[20:40] The rationale being uh that cooked dry as possible meant little moisture could escape and exacerbate the the uh sogginess problem. I cooked under the brink of being dry and crumbly. My culinary school instructors would have a kitten over that. Uh despite not wanting to use rusks, I ran with your idea of an absorbent. I this is an interesting idea here.
+
+[20:56] You might like this because you like uh Italian. Well, you don't really like Italian. It's northern Italian though. I don't like them. The be like the food.
+
+[21:02] Mm-hmm. And the place. Yeah. Um, although Nils would come back and say that this is actually a Swedish thing. Anyway.
+
+[21:10] Uh I blitzed some dry porcini mushrooms into powder. Right. Uh when it came time to wrap the pastry around the tenderloin, I spread out the duck cells on the pastry, then lightly sprinkled the porcini powder on top of the duck cells, layering uh extra on the part of the pastry that would be the bottom. So I was using the the using that as like uh the sponge, the porcini powder sponge. Interesting idea.
+
+[21:30] Uh the wrapped tenderloin was decorated, heavily vented, egg washed and chilled for two hours. The result turned out fabulous. It was baked at 450 for 10 minutes and then uh turned down to 325 until the core was reheated up to 120. While the hot spots that led to some overbrowning uh uh hot spots of the oven led to some overbrowning on the top. This I also believe caused the uneven leavening uh and or minor tearing of the pastry near the venting.
+
+[21:50] The result was otherwise spot on. No juices escaped beyond the mushrooms, and the pastry was crisp all the way around, only some minor butter leakage was to be found. Butter leakage. That's butter leakage. Stas is making her butter leakage face.
+
+[22:01] Uh on the sheet pan afterwards, the tenderloin was succulent and juicy, and the duck cells were moistened by any escaping juices, thus leaving the pastry dry on the bottom. Thanks again, James. See, I think the key there, excellent work. Uh excellent work. I think the key there is the pre-cook on it.
+
+[22:15] You're getting rid of a lot of those juices that would be flowing out and getting into the pastry. And it's not like it's on the initial cook is when you're losing most of those juices into your pastry anyway. And it's not like those juices are making the meat any juicier, they're just making your pastry soggier. So I think that's a good way to go. Uh and then we got a next question in.
+
+[22:33] Hello, uh, New York. I finally got an emergency. This is a question, not a comment, I think. No. You want the comments first and then the question?
+
+[22:39] You don't care. Are you yeah. Are you doing the joke one too? No. No.
+
+[22:45] I'm offended that you don't think I read them and you're like, Alright, so we I got a question. Someone sent someone who You saw it over the break, too. I I know. Someone Look. Someone who is challenged in the arts of writing emails requesting things in English, requested something from Booker and Dax the Bar.
+
+[22:59] I'm not gonna read it. What if they hear and then like they hear that we're insulting what they wrote? But it was the craziest request for an email ever. Although a delicious sounding dinner, I might say. You don't think it'd be good?
+
+[23:15] No. No? Nope. You don't want like a side of one in the no. No.
+
+[23:23] Alright. It's not like I'm putting it this way. It's not like the one that I tweeted out. It's not it's not spaghetti and potatoes, like the one that I got tweeted out that my son was uh. Ow.
+
+[23:34] A starch and a meat. Starch meat. But that meat would never go with that starch. No. Nope.
+
+[23:43] Whatever. Whatever. I I can't tell you guys what we're talking about because I don't want to insult anyone. But whatever. Crazy email.
+
+[23:52] Crazy email. Crazy. Anyway. Okay. I finally got an immersion circulator.
+
+[23:57] I'm now in my messing around stage. Messing around stage. That sounds like a weird like kind of relationship time. My messing around stage. I'm in my messing around stage.
+
+[24:05] I bought a sirloin tip and dice it into fairly large one and a half to two inch cubes. I cooked everything for about eight hours and the meat became a dot dot dot dense. Dense. Not dry or tough, but certainly not melt in your mouth tender. I'm wondering since sirloin is comparatively lean cut, will it ever become as tender as, say, um rip steak or filet?
+
+[24:25] Now listen. Listen. Filet is only tender because it's got no connective tissue in it, right? Uh filet, you're if you cooked filet for a long time. I'm saying this right now, so everybody knows.
+
+[24:36] If you cook a fillet for a long time, low temp, what happens is it turns to paste, turns to like mush because it has no connective tissue to hold it together, and it has nothing to render out and get and get gelatinous, right? Um to me, like you know, the the one that can tenderize a little bit is like a rib steak you can tenderize by long cooking, or anything else that has more connective tissue in it where the underlying meat itself is still tender. So skirt steak, you can cook for um you know, like 24 hours, and it'll just get more and more and more tender, right? Uh what is it? What's the other one I'm looking at?
+
+[25:14] Uh no, no, you want to cook skirt steak for 24 hours, like eight hours. Stupid, stupid, what am I stupid? What I meant to say is you take like a short rib and you cook it for like 24 hours, it'll have the texture of skirt skirt steak, and if you cook it for another 24 hours after that, then it'll start having the texture of steak. So it's it's it's all about the breakdown of uh connective tissue there. But you would never typically want to do any longer cooking on like a tenderloin.
+
+[25:38] In fact, I never pasteurize tenderloins because I don't like to cook them longer than about 45 uh minutes to an hour or something like that. Anyway, um okay. At the moment I can't recall the mouthfeel of conventionally braised sirloin beef stew vexing. Also, Vexing. I like that.
+
+[25:54] I like anything with an X in it. That's why Dax is named Dax. Three letters with an X. That's how we chose his name. Anyway.
+
+[25:59] And we didn't want Rex, because Rex, my wife says sounds like a dog, even though that's my great grandpa's name. Do you think it sounds like a dog? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah? What's the long of Rex?
+
+[26:09] It's not. Oh. That's why I liked it, because I didn't want something that was uh shorter for something else. And Rex was the only one I could think of that's because it means king. It's short for nothing.
+
+[26:18] In what language? Rex? Latin. Oh. Yeah.
+
+[26:21] Anyway. Uh I guess it does sound like I guess the guys at Night of the Museum 3 thought it sounded like a dog because that's what they named. Uh Tyrannosaurus Rex. Yeah. Rex and what a jerk I am.
+
+[26:31] What a moron. There's a name Rexford. Rexford? Yeah. Or Rexler.
+
+[26:37] Isn't that like a college? What's Rexford as a person's name? Seems like it, yeah. It can be a first name. Well, kudos to all you Rexfords out there.
+
+[26:45] You don't sound doesn't sound like a dog to me. I like the name. Anyways. This is why you should never tell other people the names that you're thinking of having for your kids. You ever notice?
+
+[26:53] Like, if if if if someone's pregnant that you know, don't ask them what they're thinking of naming their kid. Because then if they tell you, you're gonna ruin it. Your face. Your face. Well, not just your face.
+
+[27:04] Like, I'll make a wise crack. I'll like literally ruin it. You know what I mean? And if if once a kid is named and someone says something like wisecrack about the name, then you just want to kill that person. You punch them in the face.
+
+[27:14] You're like, wait, you making fun of my kid's name? You're you should die, right? But before you've had the kid, it puts little seeds of doubt. They're like, I knew a guy named that once. Oh, I hated that freaking guy, right?
+
+[27:25] And like you know people that you hate. I know some names that you will never choose should you have kids. Yeah, right? So then but you don't want anyone else giving you that information either. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[27:34] Whatever. Whatever. Okay. Uh okay, here we go. Also, since I was basically messing around, there are likely flaws in my method.
+
+[27:41] Here is what uh here's what was done to the uh sirloin. Okay, this is Michael from Toronto saying this, by the way. Uh, I think. Yes. Um salted and seared the cubes.
+
+[27:52] First of all, on a long cook, you're cooking for eight hours. A lot of the density is gonna be due to the fact that you pre salted the cubes. If you salt those cubes, especially something that small, the salt's gonna get good penetration as you're cooking. If you're salting those things out, they're going to become dense. There's just no way around it.
+
+[28:08] Alright. So that's your first thing you need to do is not salt those dang uh cubes beforehand, salt them afterwards. Then allowed to cool slightly before bagging with lightly cooked, salted and sliced onions, carrots, and leeks. Okay, now listen. When you're putting um cooked like mirapoix or when you're putting mirepoix or veg in um in the in the thing with it, you want to cook it all the way through till it's done because two reasons.
+
+[28:37] One, you're gonna leach water out of it when you cook if you cook it high enough. And secondly, you're never going to get any more cooking texture-wise on those vegetables until they hit about 82 to you know, between 82 and 85 uh Celsius, right? So they're never like I've put uh carrots in a bag as a demo when I was teaching back when I used to teach this stuff. I put carrots in a bag and let them circulate for a week uh and at like you know in in the in the high 50s or or low sixties Celsius, and they're just they're still crunchy when you take them out of the bag. So they're not gonna cook anymore.
+
+[29:11] So you want to take uh your veg in a in a meat in meat in bag situation. You want to take them all the way to done uh before you put them in the bag. Okay. Um then did the zippy ziplock 63C 63 Celsius for five hours. That's another like thing right there.
+
+[29:29] I would not have gone for that high temp for five hours because what you're doing there is you're raising you're you're basically cooking all of the protein to uh to 60 to 63. There's no point then in because then for another one hour you did 56 and then uh 58 for two hours, and then prends you write it clearly messing around with temps. Once you've cooked at 63 for five hours, you're never gonna undo what happened there at uh at 63. So there's no point in going back uh low. If you want something that tastes like a traditional, you don't want it like rare, uh you know, 62, 60, somewhere in there, 60 to 62 is good.
+
+[30:13] Um, you know, a lot of people like their kind of short ribby stuff, somewhere between 57 and 60, uh, and sometimes 62. Anything over that, and it's really getting into the kind of like I used to say denser, kind of chewier uh ranges. Um so on something like a sirline, I wouldn't go that high. I would stay somewhere in the area of like 57. Highest I'd go is like 60, but uh on a sirline.
+
+[30:39] I mean, on a short riby kind of a thing, people sometimes like it a little higher because they like to take like it to taste a little more traditional. But and and also remember when you're doing low temp, even if you were to cook it for a long, long time, it's not gonna shred out like a traditional braise will. It'll stay uh intact, anyways. Uh and then post sear and butter. Will it ever be a tender stew?
+
+[30:57] Well, I think you're looking the a couple of the problems you're looking at is the pre-salt on it. I would omit the salt until uh until the end for that kind of cooking. I think 63 is a little bit too high. Um, and if the meat would be tender as soon as it's cooked through, if the sirline you have, it means tip, I guess. I haven't done a lot of cooking with that uh particular cut.
+
+[31:17] Uh but if it's if it's gonna be tender right from the get-go, then just keep it. I would keep it low, like in the in the high 50s for a long time. Uh, and then that will do any tenderization, but won't cause it to be dense. But it'll end up being more like uh it'll be good. That's what I would do.
+
+[31:34] Anyway. Um, um also, thanks for your tips about carbonation. I put together a five-pound rig at home now because of you, and I can fulfill my daily seltzer quota, life-changing. Uh, and a slightly related follow-up, I added roasted turnips to my stew, uh, as I was afraid they might somehow overpower the stew with their cruci cruciferous, you know, cruciform vegetables. Uh, notes, i.e., farti smells.
+
+[31:57] Can we just say this? Farty smells. Uh, sulfur farty smells. Uh, if left in a bag with everything else, is that even a possibility? I don't know.
+
+[32:03] You know, I've never done uh I've never done turnips in the bag. You ever done turnips in the bag anyone? No, I was like, no. Well, you have Mark uh done turnips in the bag? No.
+
+[32:11] Do you like mashed do you like turnips? Yeah. Yeah? I bet you know, I bet Rutabages would go farty in a bag. I don't think turnips are gonna go.
+
+[32:20] I don't think so. You like haggis, neeps and tatties? I haven't had it, yeah. You haven't had haggis? Oh my god, haggis is so delicious.
+
+[32:26] We should just do, you know what we should do? Like, if we ever get in a situation where we have time again and we can do normal cook like cooking stuff like for a living. I don't really I don't get to cook so much for a living anymore. It's like my cooking now is like I'm back to being a basically a private cook. Um, because you know, I'm focusing on bar and the booker and axe and stuff like that.
+
+[32:44] We should do like just like those like kind of weird presentation. Remember when we did that haggis back at the FCI? I don't think I was with you. You weren't? We did, I did a haggis, I did a high-end haggis.
+
+[32:54] Good, good. And a high-end uh scrapple. I love all those things. Anyways. Um so the answer there is I don't know.
+
+[33:02] Is that even a possibility? Also, are low temp mushrooms good? I cook those separately as well. Well, again, as I said before, mushrooms are not going to uh cook at those temperatures, but uh mushrooms that are infused in a bag for a long period of time with flavors and then sautéed afterwards, delicious. Done that many, many times.
+
+[33:20] Okay. You want to take a break, Jack? Uh well. Yeah, right? Take a break?
+
+[33:24] Yeah. You want to take a quick break? Nah, I don't think. Nah. Alright.
+
+[33:28] Dear Dave, Anastasia, Jack, and White. But why didn't want to come today, so he doesn't like us anymore. Is that true, Jack? He hates us now? No, he's home listening.
+
+[33:37] Oh, okay. I like that. That's wrong. A few weeks ago, I wrote in to ask your advice on cooking bear. I followed your suggestions and I'm happy to report that bear is in fact delicious.
+
+[33:47] Well, it gotta be better than the one we had, right? Remember how awful that was? Tasted like you were chewing on a on a nail. Tasted like iron supplements. Yeah.
+
+[33:53] I hate iron supplements. Uh I've never had to take iron supplements, but like I told you, I when Dax had to take them when he was a little baby, like I ate them to see what I was feeding him, and they're terrible. You ever had the iron supplements? Yeah. Terrible.
+
+[34:04] Anyway. We had two pieces, one with some ribs still attached to it and a fair bit of fat, and one that was very lean, possibly a tenderloin or whatever the ursine equivalent is. After various uh lengths in the circulator, uh simplest turned out to be best for the tenderloin, and since the other piece was much smaller, I decided to treat it the same way. I pre-seared both pieces and popped them in the circulator for about four to five hours, let them cool down a bit, and gave them the final sear and sliced them up. I made a jus out of this scraps and bones, seasoned with a little soy and fish sauce, uh, and thickened with uh 0.25% Xanthan gum.
+
+[34:36] Delicious. The lean piece was medium tender, very slightly gamey in a good way. The other piece was a bit chewy, but still very tasty. I'm hoping to get my hands on some more next year so I can experiment further. If I can get some stewing meat out of it, I can live the dream and make beer braised bear or brown butter basted bear.
+
+[34:52] Good, right? The question is how old was the bear? That's what I was told. I was told that the bear that we ate was too old by a hunter who had experienced, I guess, young bear and old bear, and said that that my problem was that we had old bear. Um he also wants this is Alex Matrano, wants to know uh more about like you know, what I think's important to pay attention to in the food in the food system.
+
+[35:16] I don't have time to do that now. We gotta do that some other time. Some other time. Okay. Uh Cooking Issues team.
+
+[35:21] Uh love the show, been listening for a long time, learned a ton. Recently, I've started carbonating drinks, and finally I have a question to send in. I've built a CO2. This is uh this is from John, by the way. Um recently I started carbonating drinks, have a question that want to send in.
+
+[35:33] I built a CO2 sink set up for carbonating, but I'm getting disappointing results. Oh, sad. I hate disappointing carbonation. Lord knows I hate disappointing carbonation. Uh I've been forced, uh, I've been forced carbonating cold water, roughly 32 Fahrenheit at about 45 to 48 PSI.
+
+[35:49] And when I open the seal, it foams like crazy and goes flat within a minute or two. This occurs even if I let it settle for some time. I don't have a proper attachment, like the liquid bread carbonator yet. I'm using a Schrader valve. Schrader valves are like the valves on like bicycle tires and car tires, right?
+
+[36:03] And there's a famous old website where a guy builds uh carbonator caps out of Schrader valves. It's like the first ever like carbonate in bottle site is out there since way before anyone was thinking about anything. I can't remember the guy's site right now, but it's old and venerable uh as websites go. Uh because of this, my technique is basically gas in, disconnect, shake about 20 seconds, and repeat until water stops absorbing CO2. About five cycles or so.
+
+[36:26] Here is the mistake you were making right off the bat. Here is a mistake you're making. You need to keep the pressure on that thing while you're shaking it. Five cycles of like hit and shake is never gonna be enough, and you're not venting out the the regular gas before you get rid of it. What you need, I mean, what you need to do is you need to get rid of all of the air in there first.
+
+[36:49] You can either do that by doing a full carbonation uh session, opening it, letting it spray off, or you can do it by squeezing out the bottle first, right? That is like first off, you need to get rid of the air. I don't see in your in your um in your list here where you're not uh getting the where you're getting the air out of it because if you don't have air if you don't get rid of the air that's in there beforehand uh and carbonate with pure CO2 in the head space um you're always going to get massive amounts of foaming when you open it because that you're gonna have small amounts of gas that are inside of the inside of there and they're gonna uh inflate form nucleation sites for for CO2 because it's basically unsoluble and bang you're gonna get you're gonna lose all your CO2 right from the get go. Also um 45 PSI 45 to 48 is quite high for water. So you're gonna get a lot of foam out.
+
+[37:38] If your water is actually at around 32 you're gonna uh 40 is m like more than sufficient psi you're also gonna want to maybe throw an ice cube chip or two in so that you're not warming up as you're as you're shaking. Just a little bit even though it adds nucleation sites it tends to keep it because as you carbonate you're going to be increasing the temperature of the water because as CO2 dissolves in the the water uh gets uh warmed um so like I think that's your main that's your main uh thing uh with the Schrader you know I can't I obviously I can't see your setup uh but if you you know I'm picturing it there I have had situations where I had to shake while I used my hands to hold valves down in place and it's possible it sucks but it's possible to do so what I would do is make sure you get all of the air out beforehand keep it cold uh whether or not your water is filtered, it shouldn't make that much of a difference if you can't see anything in the water, it's probably good enough from a um from a carbonation standpoint in terms of clarity. The one thing that is true is if it's very highly mineralized, you won't it won't taste as carbonated. Okay. Um but anyways, squeeze the air out first, first thing to do.
+
+[38:48] Then if you can't squeeze the air out, then do a full carbonation run and vent it, let it foam up and then carbonate it again. Also, when you're shaking, shake while you're applying gas because uh it takes a good bit of shaking while under gas pressure, not just the pressure from the head space, but the full pressure of the tank onto it to get a good carbonation results, and that should uh work. Also, if you have time, could you describe your sink pedal setup? I know you use TNS brass, but I remember hearing on an older show that you had rigged it so you could continue to use the sink normally. Did you install a latch for this or something that could bypass the pedals entirely?
+
+[39:21] Okay, no, here's the problem. So foot pedals, uh, everyone should have foot pedals uh in their sink. It's just the truth. Um they're awesome because why would I want to touch a faucet when uh you know, or need a hand to touch a faucet? Why would you do that?
+
+[39:32] And you end up wasting less water if like when you're washing veg, if you just hit the pedal when you want to wash the veg. They're great, right? The problem is is that there are very few sinks that are designed to use um the uh regular top valves and uh and also a foot pedal valve. So what you need to do is buy a sink, buy a faucet setup where the input to the spout, right, uh comes isn't integrated with the two uh the two mixing valves that you have up top. There's plenty of setups like this.
+
+[40:02] And then what you do is you just install a T valve in between the uh gooseneck and um the uh two like hot and cold water mixing valves, right? And then you also have your uh foot valves, foot pedal valves, and you wi those things together and put them into the input, the T input into uh your um into your main sink. And make sure you put check valves on everything so you don't have any backflow. The best way to do this is if you buy a faucet that has a uh setup for a sprayer right uh it depends on how it's on how it's laid out but the one that I have which is also from TNS brass I can undo uh where the sprayer is and interpose a T you know a uh a plumbing T in between where the sprayer comes out and where the valve for that particular sprayer is so you have to make sure that you don't have some of the ones like um some of the sprayers if you press the sprayer it automatically uh turns off the the flow to the um to the to the spout you can't use that kind but if you have one where you can run both at the same time you interpose a T there which is where I've done it and then put the input directly into that and you're good to go make sense okay uh how are we doing? That's the end.
+
+[41:16] Uh all right next time we will talk about Bryce's results using Novo Shape in his uh in his uh Steep Fruit uh and uh we'll talk more about series shout out to Co Miles for supporting us during the fundraising drive I love Co Miles Co Miles engineer down in uh down in Houston. He's the man he is the man co miles here's to you happy new year cooking issues thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network dot org you can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio you can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[42:10] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This piece was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, SurreyFarms.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Deer Assassins Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:24] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network at Roberta's Pizzeria, where in Bushwick, Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah?
+
+[0:40] Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, Stas has been busy these days working on marketing stuff for this. All's it going there, Stas? Fine.
+
+[0:50] Fine? Yeah. It's doing alright, actually, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[0:53] Should be getting another shipment in hopefully like March, right? Yeah, March. I hope so. And uh hopefully, no promises, because I can't promise anything because I'm not building the stuff myself. Like Stas and I don't have the ability to build them ourselves, which is why we can't promise dates.
+
+[1:08] But hopefully in that shipment will also come the steak decorators people, for those of you that we owe steak decorators to, so I'm very excited about that. Um anyways. We also are joined with our master blaster of engineering, Jack Insley. Hello. Oh, nice.
+
+[1:24] You see, when you're actually running it, you can put the reverb on whenever you want. How are you doing, Jack? Yeah, I can. I'm feeling a little under the weather, but I'm all right. Yeah?
+
+[1:30] Is that why you need the reverb? You need the reverb to get yourself uh pumped up there? I can do a lot of things with my voice on here. Did you know that? No, let's see somebody.
+
+[1:38] What the what? Wait, do that again. Hello. Whoa. Oh man.
+
+[1:45] Yeah, yeah, I got some tricks left. Wait, now so like what's interesting about that one is it's not temporally shifted. It's just pitch shifted. So it's not like what they used to do with it like Funkadelic, where they actually would just speed the track up by like one or two. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:00] Right, right, right. Oh man. Can you can you go the other way? Can you go helium? Or can do it while I talk.
+
+[2:07] Well my God, you can be the Yonkers raceway guy now. That's true. Oh my God. We're gonna need to uh okay, we're not gonna do this to you people, like live while you're listening, but we're gonna come up with a choreography of craziness that we're gonna we're gonna start uh you know cooking issues. We're just gonna do like like up and down, like oh my god, we can do all sorts of parliament arrangements.
+
+[2:28] Mm-hmm. Oh god. We have to come up with our own kind of peafunk style mythology. Like, you know, Stas is like vegan face devoid of funk. Devoid of funk.
+
+[2:40] Uh so anyway, uh all right. So uh this week, what do we have? Do we have anything s we don't have anything special going on this week? It's Melbourne Week. Nice.
+
+[2:47] Although uh I am gonna be asking uh requests for people because over the next couple of months before the spring, I am going to be finally, finally, after like twenty years, I'm finally gonna be building an outdoor kitchen. Ooh. Yeah, right. So I need some I need well, first of all, there's gonna be a deep fryer out there 'cause I I put my fryer where my mouth is. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[3:10] I tell other people to put an outdoor fryer and I am gonna put an outdoor fryer in. But I think that might be the only gas fired thing I have out there. I'm gonna maybe put a gas assist on the fire pit, but check out what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna have a uh I'm gonna have a a fi a standard fire pit, right? But I also want integrated into this big thing, a tandoor.
+
+[3:29] You know, Lucas, longtime listener, Lucas, a museum supporter, he's building a tandoor right now. And a uh and a bread oven. Maybe, as much as I rib them, maybe Quebecois style bread oven. So a bread oven, you know, masonry, w retained heat, masonry oven, fire pit, tandor, and here's the last one. This is the unusual one because everyone's a everyone builds a tandoor outside.
+
+[3:51] I'm gonna put a curticula in that son of a gun. So a curticula is the Roman uh kind of cooking platform. So that what it's weird, it's outdoors, it looks like a fireplace, right? So it's like looks like uh like a mantle, like a flat thing, and underneath it is a is an arch-shaped thing that looks like a fireplace, right? Right?
+
+[4:09] So it's like it's like imagine like a little mini arc de triomphe with like a flat tabletop on top without all the you know little ornamentation and crap, right? But here's the weird Roman thing is that they don't build a fire in the arch and cook in the arch. They store wood in the arch and they build the fire directly on top of the table surface. And they cook on this table surface. And um years ago, Johnny Azini and I did a uh um like a v video shoot where we were imitating Roman cooking and we built one, like a curticula, and we were cooking on top of it.
+
+[4:41] And I actually really liked it. It's kind of fun because you know, like instead of like uh reaching into a fire pit or reaching into an oven, it's like the fire is literally right there and you can move around it and like all the way around it, and you can like shift stuff around in kind of a cool way. So I kind of liked it. So I'm gonna do that. Because you know what?
+
+[4:58] Because I can. And another thing I'm doing, uh, we talk about uh before I get to the questions. Oh, by the way, should you have questions, you can always call them in too 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So I like espresso.
+
+[5:17] Um I love espresso, espresso is good. You do you like espresso styles or but do you drink it straight? No, you drink like lattes or you drink like macchiato? What do you drink? I drink from the Mr.
+
+[5:26] Coffee. No, no, espresso. You said espresso. When you're gonna have an espresso beverage. But do you like straight espresso?
+
+[5:29] Okay. So anyway, I don't really like uh uh it's not that I don't like it. I'm not I don't go out of my way for like super drip or like you know, pour overs or pour over sounds like homeover to me. I know it's like super popular now. We had a good one at that uh Japanese style coffee place.
+
+[5:49] Yeahs gave a pfft because it just took forever. It took for freaking ever, but I'm fine with that. You know, I enjoy all this stuff and I enjoy, but really my heart's in espresso. Uh but I haven't had a chance to update my espresso game in many, many years because I had a spending kibosh dropped on me, you know, and because I already had a fairly decent setup. So now I'm also, and you guys will I'll regale you with the stories.
+
+[6:11] When it happens, um I'm updating my espr my espresso rig. Now the trick with espresso, the mistake that people make, right? Espresso, and I've said this a billion times, is all about uh control and repeatability of a fairly small range of variables, but it turns out it's more difficult than you'd think to control them all uh very well. Um so I updated my uh my roasting setup because you know how I roast coffee styles? You know I'm trying to save money now, so I went back to roasting my own coffee and uh I use what's called a whirly pop.
+
+[6:41] So you know the you know the popcorn maker that you put on the stove and you twist it and it goes and it pops and it's this aluminum whirly pop thing. So a lot of people I went I used to pop with air popcorn poppers, I had dedicated air roasters, and I burnt out every single one that I ever had, every single one I burnt out. The whirly pop, it don't ever burn out. It just doesn't burn out. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:01] And they've they've superseded that, you know, you know, with home roasters now. They have home roasters now that almost act like mini drum machines. They're awesome, but I can't afford them. Whirly pop is like 15 bucks, right? But you know what I hate about the whirly pop?
+
+[7:12] The whirly pop, you have to crank it all the time. So, like let's say all of a sudden your nose starts to run. Can you go get a Kleenex? No. No.
+
+[7:24] Because you have to turn it all the time. Because if you don't turn it all the time, it's gonna burn. If something else happens, if the phone rings, can you answer the phone? No. No, you can't.
+
+[7:33] Because if you do, it'll burn. Can you make a cup of coffee while you're doing it? No. Like can you take the last of the stuff that you had while you're roasting the new stuff and make no, right? Which sucks.
+
+[7:42] It's it's terrible. And and and it's like 10 or 12 minutes of time when you can sit there and do nothing else, and then another couple of minutes cooling it down afterwards, like putting the beans back and forth after you roast them. So uh I took, you know, Stas and I have a an Ultimaker for Booker and Dax for prototyping. So I probably should I went off the reservation. I mean I didn't really use it for work in this application, but I printed out uh a little housing, I chopped off the end of the whirly pop thing, left a little little bit of the handle that you crank on it.
+
+[8:08] Uh it chopped off enough so I could get a straight piece, you know, because the handle's bent, if you could picture it in your head. Chopped it off, and then I put a little like 12 volt DC motor I got on Amazon for like six bucks and put it on there, printed a like a case that fit around and held it onto the handle so it wouldn't spin. Now that sucker's electric. Oh yeah. So now like for like eight bucks or something, I have an electric whirly pop, and now I can, you know, you listen, never roast, never roast coffee on a stove and leave it unattended.
+
+[8:37] I'm not saying you do that, but I can now blow my nose, make a cup of coffee, move around, like get a drink of water while I'm doing it. It's just so much more civilized. I can't believe it. It took me years to do this, but it's all because you know how you know how you don't do anything for a long time, you stay in say stasis, right? And then all of a sudden you get a kick in the butt and you just do everything all at once.
+
+[8:59] Well, it's like that with the coffee. So because I'm getting this new place, I need a new coffee grinder, right? Now the coffee grinder I have is called the Ranchillio Rocky, and it's like at the time it was, you know, I couldn't believe I was spending that kind of money on a on a grinder. It was like 300 bucks or 350 or something. And it was the highest kind of level grinder that any home jockey was getting, because this was like 12 years ago, 10, 12 years ago, something like this.
+
+[9:20] Uh make 12 maybe. And um, maybe more. Jeez. Hmm. I might have gotten it before Booker was born.
+
+[9:27] I don't remember. Anyways, it was kind of like it, you know. Uh, but now people are getting much kind of higher level grinders, but no one is well, that's not true. There's plenty of rich people out there, but not very many people now are buying the highest level of grinder, like the Titan series are called grinders, like the very large ones with the very large burrs in them. And it turns out they make uh just you know, everyone who uses them says they make superior espresso.
+
+[9:54] They're all they're huge and they're expensive, like thousands of dollars, right? So am I gonna buy that? I don't know. No, I'm not gonna buy that. What am I crazy?
+
+[10:01] I'm gonna buy, but it, you know, everyone spends all their money on the espresso machine, but not on the grinder, which is a huge, huge error because the world's greatest espresso machine with a crappy grinder, you're very limited in what you're gonna produce in terms of quality espresso. So it turns out that there is this lunatic company called Orphan Espresso out of Idaho, right? And it's a husband and wife team, I think they're husband and wife, and they just make these crazy grinders that have really high quality burr sets in hand grinders. So they make unfortunately it's always out of stock because they don't really give a crap. It's called the Ferro's, and I can't get one right now because they're out of stock, and what happens is is that they get the parts in for like 40 or 50 of them.
+
+[10:47] They put it on and they sell out like like this, and then when they're gone, it's like you, and they never tell you it's gonna happen. And people, I understand that because you know what? They probably hate doing customer service. I'm with them. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[10:58] So I don't I'm not blaming them. It's just I wish I could get one, you know. So they have a grinder set. First of all, this grinder called the the Ferro's, the Orphan Espresso Ferros, it's only $245, which seems like, oh, that's a lot. But the group the I can't buy just the burrs, because I looked into DIYing one.
+
+[11:14] I can't buy the burrs for less than like 150. So I don't know how they're building the whole grinder for two 245 dollars, because they're building a grinder that has the same burr set in it. It's called the Coney is the name of the grinder, Maser Coney. And it's it's like uh I think it's like a $4,000 grinder or something like this, and for $245, you can get that same grind quality, it just put a little elbow grease into it. I got their next down in line one because that one's always in stock called the Leto 2, and I have to say my espresso quality has jumped up.
+
+[11:43] I might have to get one from my home rig. Anyway, uh later I'll talk about because I'm finally gonna pimp out the uh Ranchillo Silvia, which is you know, the the kind of um it's kind of the 39 Merc of espresso machines in that everybody um you know, everyone kind of tricks out the the Sylvia because it's really easy to trick out. So everyone's done PID, which is you know the temperature control loops, and people have done everything to it. So I'm never I'm not gonna be treading on any new water in it, but I'll go through the kind of modifications that I've done to the Sylvia and I'll report back as it happens. But that's probably gonna take a couple of months because I'm only gonna be doing it in drips and drabs here and there.
+
+[12:17] Anyway, so that's my coffee report and my uh my other report. Should we get on to some acquestiones? Yeah. Okay. Uh Steven Hoppy, he says last name pronounced hope, if you care to know, which I do.
+
+[12:31] I like that. Hoppy. But like hop like with a capital E, which which I also like. Like because if it's H O PE, that the capital E means it's pronounced E like easy E, right? Hoppy.
+
+[12:44] Anyway. Uh from Chicago. Uh writes in about centrifuges. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and anyone else who might be present. No one.
+
+[12:51] Only got the hard course. Hard course. Uh I'm hoping to purchase a centrifuge that I hope to use in a bar I'm in the process of developing and found what looks to be a decent one for sale at a good price. It's uh for those of you that know, it's a uh made by Fisher, and it's uh you know, there's Fisher is really a catalog, they don't really make anything. Um I don't I think that's my impression of them, but um it's about a thousand bucks, which for a three-liter centrifuge is pretty good.
+
+[13:17] Anyway, so here's here's the question. There are a couple of things about this model that give me pause. For one, as you can see if you follow the link, you can't because you're on the radio. And and I'm not gonna give you guys the link because if I give you the link, then maybe someone else would buy it out from underneath Stephen, and that would not be fair. Would that be fair?
+
+[13:31] Would not be fair. Uh it only does 3,000 times the force of gravity, and I know that you use a centrifuge that gets to 4,000. On top of that, this model is not refrigerated. I think that the lower G force will just mean the product will take more time to form a puck, but I don't know how much longer and if this will be a problem. If purchased, this will be used in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
+
+[13:50] Never been. You ever been? Mm-mm. I'd like to go. Wouldn't you like to go?
+
+[13:53] Someone I know it was just in Puerto Rico. Hyper. I didn't know he was in Puerto Rico. When was he in Puerto Rico? When he worked with us.
+
+[14:00] No, no, but I mean I know someone who just like literally just got back from Puerto Rico. Um someone in Book Garden Tex, maybe. Anyway. And I have a slight concern about the product heating up too much uh in Puerto Rico. I get you.
+
+[14:11] Uh if it's going to take uh much longer for a puck formation in a hot, humid environment. Does this seem like too large a caveat to make the purchase? Thanks for the help and for everything else you do, listening to cooking issues has inspired and emboldened me to give up cabinetry and take on bar management. Well, cabin, I think cabinetry is a great profession. I mean, I'm not saying you should go back to it, but a lot of honor in doing good woodwork.
+
+[14:32] You know what I mean? Yeah. I like good woodwork. Uh cheers, Steven from Chicago. Although I guess in the future, shortly, you know, we'll be in San Juan.
+
+[14:40] So here's my thoughts. Um so for those of you out there that don't have the link. This is a spinning bucket centrifuge. Remember, centrifuge is separating um products based on density. It spins around really quickly, and um the denser stuff goes to the outside of the spinning rotor, and the lighter stuff gets pushed up to the inner side of the spinning rotor where the forces of gravity uh well, the centripetal force is less, right?
+
+[15:04] Now, there's what you need to to know. First of all, on refrigeration, the spinning from the rotor does generate a significant amount of heat. So if you're gonna be spinning, things get pretty warm. Now, that said, I know plenty of people like Wiley Dufrein, his centrifuge is not refrigerated, and he's had good luck with it, but you do need to do a couple of things. You need to uh chill your buckets down beforehand.
+
+[15:27] So sometimes I would put ice water in them when I used a non refrigerated centrifuge um and just get everything cold beforehand. You can store a little don't don't ever put anything into the um into the cabinet while it's spinning because it can get kicked up and just it's a nightmare. Don't ever do that. But you can put um you can put ice into the uh like bags of ice into the centrifuge cabinet while it's not spinning to get it nice and cold beforehand, and that can help a little bit. So if you buckets start cold and your product starts cold and your centrifuge starts cold, and you might not need to do all of those things, you have a a good chance of having the stuff not get too hot.
+
+[16:06] But I'll just give you an idea when something spins for like fifteen or twenty minutes without a refrigerator and it starts everything starts out at room temperature, you can get, you know, up above, slightly above body temp, um, you know, up into like yeast proofing temperatures when you um spin. So that the the temperature rise is appreciable, and though the longer it stays in, obviously, the higher the temperature is gonna go. So that's you know what you're dealing with if you if you're talking about um uh talking about not having a refrigerator. It's not insurmountable. It's not something that uh, you know, I would w if I could choose refrigeration, would I have it?
+
+[16:41] Yeah. Uh you know, would I not buy a centrifuge because it didn't have a fridge? No. And the advantage of not having a fridge is the centrifuges with fridges are a lot heavier, they cost more, uh, and they're a lot bigger. They take up a lot more space and they take more power.
+
+[16:56] So these are you know three things that aren't necessary, and they throw more heat off into your kitchen because remember, uh any refrigerator in your kitchen is throwing off heat. That's how it's making things cold on the inside. Okay. Um so that's that. Um and if you're a real DIY moder, um I'm not gonna recommend that you modify a centrifuge.
+
+[17:13] What the crazy? What am I? What am I crazy? Nuts? Dave said I could modify the centrifuge and it blew up and killed everyone in my restaurant, you know?
+
+[17:20] Yeah. See now that I deal with these corporate weasels all the time, like I I I have to think like a corporate weasel sometimes, which is kind of depressing. Stas is like, who who are you? I don't even know you anymore. I can't believe you moderated something you were gonna say based on corporate weasel think.
+
+[17:34] Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, we all get worse as we get older, I think. You know, we're not like fine wines as it happens. So the other question is about the uh the G forces involved. Okay, here's the thing.
+
+[17:46] On a spinning bucket centrifuge, um I find that you need a higher G force than you do in a fixed angle rotor. So a fixed angle rotor is one where you have tubes or vials or whatever, and they're kept at a fixed angle, right? Duh, fixed angle uh rotor. And what happens is is at that fixed angle, uh particles that are um that are getting uh spun out of uh the solution, they're not in solution, but getting uh desuspended, let's say, and turn into a puck, they hit that side wall of the fixed angle rotor, and then they scour themselves down that angle and compact into a nice pellet, right? So fixed angle rotors can form a nice pellet uh at fairly low G forces.
+
+[18:33] Whereas a spinning butt and there's typically less distance that um that the particles have to travel before they hit that wall, so it spins out faster. Spinning bucket rotors, um, they can separate fairly quickly, but they don't compact as hard when they're hitting because they're they're basically just settling onto a flat thing and then they have to push. There's no kind of scouring action down into it. So when a spinning bucket rotor slows down, which is when the problems happen, they tend to kick stuff back up into the um product and they tend to cloud. So back when you know when my centrifuges are running closer to 3,000 G's, like when the bearings are getting shot, things tend to be a little cloudier.
+
+[19:13] Is it still gonna work? Yes. Do you can you still carbonate with it? Yes. Does it make me super happy?
+
+[19:18] Do I wake up with a big smile on my face thinking about a centrifuge that can only run at 3,000 G's? No. You know what I mean? But that said, uh, you know, it's definitely going to be worthwhile. Um, and certain things are going to clarify at 3,000 G's no problem, like Banana Houstino, which is a clarification monster.
+
+[19:34] But other things that are on the verge of not clarifying or that have very fine sediment that tends to kick up, you might have some problems, and spinning longer might solve them or it might not. But you know, it seems like it's a fairly small centrifuge and it's you know might be worth the money if you can get it for a thousand dollars. The ones that I used to get uh for really cheap um DeJuans don't seem to be as available as they as they used to be. But here's the other thing I'm gonna recommend. If you're going to buy a used centrifuge for a bar program, uh don't count on it to survive.
+
+[20:04] You must get a backup unit, okay? Uh you must get a backup unit, or you must train your bar staff to be able to do alternate techniques like agar clarification. But agar clarification is not going to work if you're doing things like Houstino. So, you know, a new centrifuge, is it gonna break? Probably not.
+
+[20:23] It's eight grand, right? That's just that's just facts. But uh a used centrifuge, don't think you can get away with a $1,000 one use centrifuge because that sucker will break. I'm telling you from experience, it will break. And the odds that someone at the bar, if you're not there, it is able to fix it themselves, is low for two reasons.
+
+[20:48] Not that many people are trained in fixing centrifuges, or have the kind of kind of mechanical, I'm just gonna freaking do this thing and fix it. And even if they did, what are the odds that someone who's working for you feels comfortable ripping apart your centrifuge? Because what if they mess it up? You know what I'm saying? So it's very hard to get someone at the bar to be able to do something like fix a centrifuge for you.
+
+[21:09] So if you're not willing to fix it or you're not able to get there instantly to fix it if it goes down, or if you don't have some sort of, you know, way that you don't need those menu items on a regular basis, then get it back up. Yeah? Did you fix it yesterday? Yes. We had one that was broken yesterday.
+
+[21:25] The brushes, it was the brushes that went bad. And I might have need to replace it again, but I was able to get it to run, no problem. Look, there's a it's the kind of thing, it's like, you know, I know that Stas and I said that we weren't gonna be, you know, you know, duct tape and bubblegum. Is that when it was like balancing on two things and you had it like it was underneath? It's still like that.
+
+[21:44] Yeah. Well, this is like on the sheet tray, yeah. That did it didn't fit on. Right. Yeah.
+
+[21:50] This one, it's like I mean, look, uh, if you guys knew the kind of like real dumb way that we have to do things nine times out of time. The funniest thing ever happened, I forget who it was, somebody once like said that they accused us of like having all this like awesome equipment and like like cushy everything. And while that thing came in, I think I was literally lifting a centrifuge by myself, like up to a place over my head so I could go underneath it and work on the motor. Remember that day? Oh my god.
+
+[22:23] Anyway, you know, uh again, like we're not as duct tape as we were before, though, right? Styles were getting a little better. Yeah. Yeah, but whatever. It's like it's like uh it's like Jack, you know how you we've had this conversation a billion times, but it's always worth having again.
+
+[22:37] You know how in a band you keep on saying that someday someone else is gonna move your equipment for you? Yeah. Does that ever happen? Yes. Okay, you have other people moving your equipment now?
+
+[22:46] No, I mean, not fully, but sometimes in some gigs, you know. Really? Yeah. Man, I was all about that it was like, is it I I'm gonna get to the point in my life where someone's gonna carry my bass rig around. No, you won't.
+
+[22:59] No, you won't. You know, and it's the same thing with our crap. Uh same thing with the cooking crap. You just never get there. Okay.
+
+[23:05] Brian Haggerty writes in from Minneapolis. And by the way, he says at the end that uh we were wondering about it once that the abbreviation for Minneapolis M P L S. Did you know that? I saw that. Yeah.
+
+[23:18] See, it doesn't make sense. I don't I don't get Minneapolis. NYC you get. NYC you get New York City. But many.
+
+[23:27] M N wait M N P S No M P L S. N P L S. M like Minnesota or Minneapolis. Oh, gotcha. P like political science.
+
+[23:38] Yeah. L like latrine. S like sandwich. Got it. Mipples.
+
+[23:44] But like the thing is, is like, like, I don't know, like M I P S or something. MIPS. I don't know. Like mini Mipples? There's no N.
+
+[23:54] To me in Minneapolis is about the ends, right? Minneapolis. Min. This is just Mipples. How about an M N PNP or M N P S?
+
+[24:05] Minnipus. Minpus. I don't know. I don't know, dude. How about just Minneapolis?
+
+[24:09] Yeah. I'm looking at the word Minneapolis next to Mipples, and I'm not. I'm not feeling it. You feeling it? No.
+
+[24:17] It's just not. No. No. No. Right?
+
+[24:21] No. No. No. No. No.
+
+[24:23] At first I thought it was like some sort of contraction of like Minneapolis, St. Paul, like a kind of Twin City thing. But it's not. It's literally just Minneapolis. Crap on those St.
+
+[24:32] Paul people. It's not even in there. You know what I mean? Whatever. Mipples.
+
+[24:36] I kind of now I kind of like it. Now I have in my uh in my head, um, you know, like at the beginning of a lot of rap songs, they'll be like mipples, Mipples, Mipples, Mipples. You know what I mean? Like uh like Public Enemy used to do that all, but they wouldn't say mipples, they'd be like uh uh uh what's that song? Here come the drums.
+
+[24:55] It's off uh I'll look it up anyway. But uh that's what I have it going through my head. I have someone like mipping mipping mip. Oh, I know. It's that uh never mind, I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[25:03] It's off of uh uh 91 the uh the what is it the 91 the The Enemy Strikes Black or The Empire Strikes Black? I don't know. Remember that album, Jack? Anyway. Uh Brian Haggerty writes in regarding chia.
+
+[25:17] I recently discovered your show and I'm loving it. I'm wondering if you had any well, thank you. Uh I'm wondering if you had any thoughts about the usefulness of chia seeds. Daz, can you do the chia song for me? No.
+
+[25:28] Come on. Jack, can you do the chia song? Am I gonna have to do it? I don't want to do it. You're gonna have to do it.
+
+[25:33] Okay, uh you you did you used to do those things when you were a kid? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know what the most recently I had a new old stock, uh, this is maybe 10 years ago, uh, Mr. T Chia head.
+
+[25:42] It's awesome. His mohawk is perfect because it's got the ridges in it to hold the chia seeds. Did you do chia pets when you were a kid, Jack? Why not? What the hell's wrong with that?
+
+[25:52] I don't know. You don't like cheese? Stas, do you like a classic chia pet? Or do you like some weird chia pets? No, classic.
+
+[25:59] I had the classic. Not like some sort of Homer Simpson growing hair thing. No, classic. I imagine it seems like a very California thing. They have chia seeds in uh disgusting stuff now.
+
+[26:10] Like in juices. Well, that's what we're about to talk about. Do you well do you prefer basil seeds? I I had my first one two days ago, and I thought it was disgusting. The texture.
+
+[26:20] Have you had it? It's it's like mucilage. It's gross. In a beverage. People like it.
+
+[26:25] I thought it was gonna be like because it was raspberry flavored, that it would be. I like raspberry seeds, you know, so I could like crunch. Yeah, but raspberry seeds, and we're about to talk about this, are very different from chia seeds. I know. I didn't know that.
+
+[26:29] So hugely different. Gross. Gross. Gross. What are your actual thoughts?
+
+[26:41] Gross, gross. Are you gonna have a new face just for chia seeds? It's still sitting in my fridge. Still sitting in your fridge. You couldn't convince uh anyone to drink that?
+
+[26:50] No. No. How like how Xanthan looking is it? Not very Xanthan looking, but the texture is very. Yeah, very Xanthan.
+
+[27:01] So we'll get into it. So anyway, I recently uh okay, but as you know, okay. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the usefulness of chia seeds backing up so people know because obviously I went off on a tangent because I cannot help myself. Uh as I'm sure you know, they absorb a ton of water and form a weird gel. Would you say that's accurate, Styles?
+
+[27:20] Weird gel. She's got her weird gel face on, her chia gel face. Her trying to keep it down in her mind face on. Various vegan folks suggest, I like that. Various vegan folks.
+
+[27:31] It's got a good ring to it. You have uh you have good uh alliterative uh prose, Brian. Uh various vegan folks suggest using a slurry of ground seeds, ground chia seeds, and water. One tablespoon of ground seeds to three tablespoons of water in place of an egg. Yeah?
+
+[27:50] Okay. Uh I have used chia seeds in turkey meatloaf to good effect. America's Test Kitchen has a turkey burger recipe that calls for gelatin to offset the dryness of the turkey. Or you could just not overcook the freaking turkey, America's Test Kitchen. This is why turkey burgers suck so hard.
+
+[28:06] They're always are over freaking cooked. Why do people do this? It's like salmon burgers. Like someone serves you a salmon burger and they overcook the piss out of it because if they salmon burgers, like theoretically, a salmon burger is a good idea, right? Except for they always make it too far in advance.
+
+[28:22] The sucker oxidizes, you get that oxidized salmon flavor, and it's overcooked into a dry puck. And they do the same thing with the turkey burger. So when they order the turkey burger out, I'm like, don't order the turkey burger. Don't do it. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:37] Anyways. But you can make a good turkey burger without using chia seeds or gelatin if you just take care. Whatever. I'm not going to get into that. We're not talking about that right now.
+
+[28:49] Okay. I have used back to the question. I have used chia seeds and turkey meatloaf to good effect. America's Test Kitchen has a turkey burger recipe that calls for gelatin to offset the dryness of the turkey. So I figured I'd use chia slurry.
+
+[29:01] How do you like that word? Chia slurry. Instead of gelatin. I also uh mixed in um ground dry chia seeds on the theory that as the meat cooked and released its juices, juices, those juices might be captured by the chia seeds and thus uh be retained in the loaf. I don't know if this mechanism, this mechanism functioned, but I do know the finished product was juicy and delicious.
+
+[29:23] Awesome. Awesome. That's good. Uh I used chia seeds in crepe batter in place of eggs to weird effect. The seeds thickened the batter like crazy, so I added a ton of water plus some oil to thin it down, and it cooked up strangely with lots of holes that developed as the water evaporated.
+
+[29:41] The taste was not bad, but it wasn't much like a crepe. Yeah. So remember, you know, you don't want a lot of like, you know, big like injera style bubbles in a crepe. And uh this kind of xanthan-y effect is gonna have a different water hold. So you should think of chia like a xanthan because it forms a mucilaginous uh slime.
+
+[29:59] And literally, like technically, they're like it forms a mucilaginous slime, much like Xanthan does. So you're gonna get, you know how like you remember when we used to foam Xanthan foams for demo styles? You get those big holes in them because of the way it holds. I don't know if it technically forms um, I don't know if the gel, because of what I was reading, uh has what's called a yield point, which we'll get to in a minute. But um, so things like Xanthan have a yield point, so they actually act like a solid uh up, you know, a gel up to a particular amount of force being applied, and then they shear thin rapidly.
+
+[30:33] I know that chia from the research I was doing is rapidly shear thinning, but I don't know kind of how much of a yield point it has. Anyway, yield point is really good for things like eggs. So I'm imagining it does have a yield uh point, uh, because that's why Xanthan is so good at replacing eggs, because it's not a protein, but it has a yield point, so it can hold things uh pretty well. Uh anyways, um so the taste was not bad, but it wasn't much like a crepe. Anyway, anyway, modernist cuisine, uh modernist cooking uses all kinds of weird gelling agents, but I haven't seen very much about chia gel in the modernist cooking related stuff I've read so far.
+
+[31:06] Uh for instance, uh Science Fair, which is like Naveen and Kevin and those guys, you know, the the the Harvard or X-Harbard guys. Because they're not that hard anymore, right? Yeah. They're gone. Uh they have a long list of hydrocolor and hydrocolor enablers, but chia seeds not on the list.
+
+[31:19] I'm interested in your thoughts, Brian Haggerty. Okay, so the you know, look, the interesting thing is, oh, by the way, before I get started, uh just take a look at this um document. It's open source, so you can get it on the internet. The International Journal of Food Science, Volume uh 2014, uh article 241053. It's called Chemical and Functional Properties of Chia Seed, Salvia Hispanica Gum by Myra Ruby Segura Campos et al.
+
+[31:51] It's available online. It's a good read. And interestingly, you know, what uh what they said that I find found interesting is that uh it was used in Aztec ceremonies, chia seeds, for a long time. And their argument, and I haven't researched the history of it enough, is that it's literally because it had religious significance that when the conquistadors came in and wiped out all traces of um religious ceremony that chia was kind of expunged, and that's why it wasn't used uh very much uh in that kind of stuff for for a long time, even though it remained a traditional food stuff. But that chia seeds was an incredibly important uh food stuff.
+
+[32:28] Like in the words of the article, less than corn, less important than corn, but more important than amaranth. Um interesting. Um all hydrocolloids, almost all hydrocolloids are natural things that are extracted either from um fermentation like xanthan or gel an. So, you know, a bacteria or a fungus is making a slime, and uh that slime is then you know purified and turned into a gum, um, or from things like seeds. Um guar seed, um, you know, the locust bean seed.
+
+[33:04] Uh so the you know, this that's how we come up with hydrocolors. But the the interesting thing is that there are a lot of seeds out there that have hydrocolloid properties in them that have just never been really researched from an industrial standpoint. Sometimes it's because they're there's not enough production out there, and sometimes it's just an oversight. And so uh this article is saying that they believe that chia seeds do have the ability to have some commercialization in terms of their use because they can be grown in places where other things don't aren't necessarily going to grow very well. Uh, and they have some interesting properties.
+
+[33:35] So, what are those properties? Chia seed forms a slimy uh gel at very low concentrations, as Nastasia knows from her raspberry drink. Um, but also what's interesting about chia seeds is chia seeds were an important dietary uh item because they're very high in oil. So it's a very uh like they're 39% oil, very high uh oil percentage. And if you soak the chia seeds or grind them and you get this mucilaginous sludge, this mucilaginous sludge is mainly formed by a polysaccharide, as all hydrocolloids are, but it also has a large protein component in it, the way that gum arabic does, and a very high oil component in it.
+
+[34:14] And that combination, that kind of triple threat of uh oil and um you know, oil and polysaccharide and protein means that it not only can hold and absorb water, but it can hold and absorb oil, and they think because of the protein also can uh emulsify. So you can use it as an emulsifier, hence it's a good maybe good replacer for something like eggs. I haven't experimented with this. This is all just this article, but I'm pretty interesting interested in it. Unfortunately, to get the pure um hydrocolloid, and by the way, the yield of this gum is fairly high, like on the order of 10, 11% by weight of the chia seed, right?
+
+[34:52] So like a good bit of it is functional, then the rest of it you have to deal with is the seed and all that other stuff. Most of the, they think that most of these properties are concentrated in the outer coat uh, you know, near the edge of the seed. Anyways, unfortunately, to produce it the way they produced it in the article, you have to uh soak the seeds, blend them, then you know, then you have to like heat it at 50 C, and then you have to spin it at ten thousand times the force of gravity for like three or four hours to get the to you know separate the seeds out from the gum and then you can dry it and have the gum. So, you know, interesting, but I've never I've never used it. But it is very interesting.
+
+[35:25] Maybe uh 'cause th they suggest maybe making mayonnaise with it or anything that needs emulsifying or oil holding, but you don't want to use um things like eggs. Anyway. Uh so we got a quick uh quick two questions in. Uh Jared writes in about uh ISIs. With respect to flavor extraction into alcohol and oil, how do chamber vacuums and uh EC uh whippers, ISI EC whippers differ and if you can start with only one, which is preferred, or is there a better option than either of them, especially for long term shelf life uh of the flavor.
+
+[35:59] Does alcohol percentage or oil type matter? What else should be considered? Thanks very much. Okay. Uh I'm not I'm not he not gonna push my book except for I go into like excruciating detail in the book on this kind of stuff.
+
+[36:13] And so I'm like I'm not gonna be able to go as in depth here. I will say this, yes, alcohol percentage matters. Uh I mean uh th higher or lower alcohol isn't necessarily better or worse, but higher alcohol is going to extract things quicker, right? So it all depends on what kind of a flavor. It's it's like it's like anything else.
+
+[36:30] There's no better, there is no good guys, there is no bad guys. Just you and me stuzz and we just disagree. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. She's boffing to that one.
+
+[36:39] We all know that's a good tune. Anyway, um oil type I don't think is gonna matter as much except for I guess obviously if something's a solid fat or liquid fat. So maybe i it does matter. I don't have as much experience with that. I usually use neutrals or uh an oil whose flavor I particularly like, something like uh olive oil.
+
+[36:56] With respect to vacuum machine versus EC, um there the fundamental the fundamental point is this the EC is has is a lot more flexible, it has a lot more power to do infusions because the pressure differentials are a lot wider. Uh and you know, you can do things like heat it in the in the EC, you can you know put a much higher pressure differential, it's easier to deal with. That said, um, if you can deal with the lower pressure differentials that you're working on in a vacuum machine, which is only like 15 psi, the advantage that a vacuum machine has is you can do a huge quantity at once, like you know, depends on the size of your vacuum machine. But I've done like gallons at once. Uh that's you know, four liters in units of four liters for eumetric types.
+
+[37:41] And uh, you know, so it can do that kind of a thing. And to be able to do that with pressure, you would move away from uh an EC and you would get a five gallon Cornelius keg and you'd hook it up to a um nitrous tank or in a pinch of CO2 tank if you had time to let it vent off, and you could do it that way. But um, if you could do it in an EC and you could afford the chargers, then I'd say it's a superior technique to using a vacuum. Uh but and it's a lot easier to experiment with the EC because the the unit quantities are much smaller. So anyway, that's my feelings on it.
+
+[38:17] But uh I, you know, again, in the in the book I wrote so many, I can't even I like I can't even think about it anymore because of all the words I wrote in that freaking book. Stas won't even look at the book. As you all know, she uses it as kind of a McDLT hot food separator. Like that's she can't doesn't want to open it. I think she might have it taped shut so that she never has to see anything on the inside of it.
+
+[38:37] And but she says it's just thick enough to make sure that you never get the hot side mixing with the cold side. So it's you know, at least it's pretty flat, right? Yeah. Doesn't bend too much. So, you know, I've done a good job right there.
+
+[38:44] That's that's all I can hope for. Last in, Alvin Schultz, our good friend Alvin Schultz writes in about eggnog. Hi, Dave. Hammer, Jack, Indie Jesus, Santis Hipster, and friends. I've been inspired by Booker and Dax's Nick Bennett.
+
+[39:03] And haven't we all been inspired by Nick Bennett to make some aged eggnog for next year and years to come. Uh Bennett just did a tasting recently of like three-year-old eggnog or something like this. I recently had a one-year-old eggnog from Hailpail in PDX. It was delicious, and I didn't die. Good news.
+
+[39:17] I'm glad you're not dead, Alvin. Dave, what's your thoughts on the safety of the two recipes listed below? Uh, particularly are my final ABV calculations correct, and should the mix be sterile and safe to drink after a year plus if it's sealed in mason jars, not canned or cooked um and stored and wrapped in foil at room temp. I wouldn't keep it in room temp, I'd keep it in the fridge. I keep it in the fridge.
+
+[39:36] Wouldn't you, Costaz? Why do they have to be room temp, Alvin? I don't know about room temp because all those studies I think were in fridge. Although I have to ask Bennett how he stored it. I don't know.
+
+[39:44] I I didn't read that when I was reading it. And also, Alvin, your your ABVs didn't come in. Um, but Nick said he shook his a couple of times a month to keep it homogenized. I also plan on shaking it every so often. If it matters, I'll be using farm eggs on pasteurized.
+
+[39:57] I don't think it matters. The whole point is if it's safe, it's safe no matter what kind of an egg you used. The guys at Rockefeller University who famously did the study, I think in 2008, I think it was 2008, of the eggnogs that they have been making for 65 years based on a recipe that was handed down to them from someone who was born in like 1890 and she got it from her like grandma or something like that. That recipe, um, you know, that recipe they tested by inoculating the eggs and the whole batch with salmonella and seeing if it killed it. So the whole point is is that if it's safe, it's gonna be safe no matter what kind of an egg you use.
+
+[40:29] Um anyway, if it matters, I'll be using farm eggs and high quality dairy products from a local creamery. I'm also uh at high risk. I'm not at high risk for illnessy, uh illness and or pregnancy. Uh and the two recipes I'll be mixing are Michael Rumens and George Washington's. Yeah, the George Washington.
+
+[40:45] Washington's recipe omits number of eggs used, so I calculated what Ruman's yolk ratio was and insert it into Washington's booze dairy mix. All right, so I couldn't look at your calculations. They didn't come through on the email album. But what I would look up is Dr. Rebecca Lancefield's eggnog recipe.
+
+[40:58] That's the one that was tested by Rockefeller University. That recipe is a dozen eggs, uh, whole eggs, not yolks, whole eggs, a quart of heavy cream, one quart light cream, one pint bourbon, one quart rum, nutmeg, and a half pound to three quarter of a pound of sugar. So what you're looking at here, sugar is going to reduce the water activity and make it a little bit safer. Uh, and the eggs water activity is what it is. But in terms of the other things, you're looking at uh a quart of heavy cream and a quart of light cream, which has a lot of fat in it.
+
+[41:26] So there's actually like, you know, a good deal of not water in that too. But you're looking at for that ratio, a pint of bourbon and a quart of rum. Okay. So a quart and a half of liquid for that level. George Washington's recipe is one quart of cream, one quart of milk, but who the hell knows what that means?
+
+[41:43] Because that's like 1700 cream. Who the who the hell knows? You know what I mean? It wasn't getting it from the store. One dozen tablespoon sugar, which is like uh, what is that?
+
+[41:52] A dozen tablespoons. It's like not quite a cup. What is that? I don't know. Well, it's eight tablespoons in a stick of butter, and that's a half cup, right?
+
+[42:00] Mm-hmm. So not quite a cup. Anyway, one pint, here's where we get the important part. One part, one pint brandy, one half pint rye whiskey, one half pint Jamaica rum. So now we're at pint, half pint, half pint, full pint, quart, uh, and one quarter pint sherry.
+
+[42:17] Then you mix that and you separate the yolks and the whites, which is interesting, and you beat in the yolks and then whip the egg whites up and fold them in. So you're looking at Washington's recipe is a little less alcoholic than the other one. And he also only lets it sit for a couple of days, tasting frequently. So uh I mean, I don't know whether Washington's recipe as written is safe. It's clearly a little less alcoholic than uh Dr.
+
+[42:40] Rebecca Lancefield's eggnog, which is guaranteed safe because they ran a challenge test on it. But it's not that much less alcoholic. So you might meh, I mean, might be safe. I don't know. Uh and then Ruman's 12 egg yolks, two cups granulated sugar, a liter of bourbon, only four cups milk and one cup heavy cream, and plus three quarters of a cup of cognac and a half cup of Myers dark rum and a pinch of salt.
+
+[43:03] A that's like super higher in alcohol content than the other one. So I'm gonna go ahead and say that uh Ruhman's recipe is a hundred percent uh guarantee. Uh obviously Lansfield's recipe is a guarantee because they tested that sucker, and George Washington. I can't vouch for it, but probably if you let it sit around long enough, it you know it's gonna be safe. But I'm not gonna guarantee it.
+
+[43:24] But good old George Washington, he didn't die. Cooking it, well, he did, but not on that. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[43:43] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C three nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a five-generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria. We're in Bushwick! Brooklyn! Hello.
+
+[0:45] Hey. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack and we got we've got Wyatt. I'm gonna speak for both of us. We're great.
+
+[0:56] You're like, I'm not gonna let uh why talk because what if he's non-doable? Well, then what? Then what? How about you, Stas? I'm okay.
+
+[1:02] Yeah? You got good stuff going on? No. Stas is like the best I can hope for is to not have crap going on. Good stuff is like, you know, way too far.
+
+[1:13] So apparently tomorrow, V Vice, the Vice, the the network slash never heard of it. Never, never, never heard of that. You've heard of Vice, the actual, you know, like sin, right? Yeah, that I've heard of. And you've heard of the of the uh Black Crow song Virtue and Vice, right?
+
+[1:31] That I've heard of too. They have this they have this network that's based on that, on that principle. And uh they have a show called The Munchies, and apparently they're gonna air the Foie Gras thing that uh I worked on with them a number of months ago based on the California ban on Foie Gras, but that's not what I want to talk about. Uh what I want to talk about was I had to go do like some last-minute voiceovers last week at their offices in Brooklyn. They're uh they're over in Williamsburg, uh, Jack, by the way.
+
+[1:57] Green point, I think, no? Uh no, I mean I think it's still Williamsburg. It's like uh the border. Williams Point. Anyway.
+
+[1:59] That's good. Yeah, I biked over there, and for the first time in like five years, my pant leg came untucked from my sock without me knowing, and it just ripped the bottom half of my pants off. It was awesome. I looked like uh I don't know, I looked like that guy I remember from the Grateful Dead concert. You probably looked like somebody who works at Vice.
+
+[2:21] Well, there you go. Uh they actually seem like very nice folks. But I was there in the in the voiceover booth, and I they had you know uh Snoop Dogg's reincarnation where he's now you Snoop Lion and he's like smokes a lot of pot in in uh in Jamaica. Anyways, so they had a big poster for that. I was like, oh, you guys did that?
+
+[2:37] Like, yeah, Snoop Dogg did voiceovers in this room. I was like, what? I was doing some voiceovers in this and I told them I was like, the only reason that uh we started Booker and Dax the Bar was in hopes of getting Snoop Dogg to come in and have some gin and juice, and we're unsuccessful, so maybe they're gonna maybe they're gonna work on that. Yeah. You think?
+
+[2:56] That'd be awesome. That's awesome. Right? That's good. Also, I have to shout out.
+
+[2:59] I'm just being uh a jerk, but Helen Holliman runs Munchie. She's awesome. She used to have a show here called You Look Hungry. So did you in fact look hungry at that time? Um I didn't.
+
+[3:09] Maybe she did. No, I guess I did. Yeah. I looked a little hungrier back then. Like now it's just who cares anymore.
+
+[3:17] Right. No longer hungry. Uh got another uh interesting story. By the way, should you have questions, cooking uh related or otherwise, why don't you write the uh call them in too uh 718-497-2128. That's 718, 497-2128.
+
+[3:33] 718, what's the new Brooklyn uh exchange, by the way? Does anyone know? No, it's not just 718 anymore, right? I think there's a 646. No, that's but that's everywhere.
+
+[3:41] That's oh, there's a new Brooklyn? I don't know, I'm asking because I have no idea. Like back in the day, right? You had your Manhattan, which was your 212. Which is I have a 212 cell phone somehow.
+
+[3:44] We know. We know. Fancy man. And then you had 718 was everybody else. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:58] And then, you know, 917 came, we had our cell phones, but now it's just it's all over the freaking map. Even Jack, a Brooklyn resident, can get a 212 on his cell phone. The hell's that all about? What a joke. Yeah, pff, yeah.
+
+[4:10] Numbers don't mean anything anymore, you know? Used to mean like, you know, you could tell something about someone by that by their telephone number. Not anymore. Now it's wasted. So this morning, by the way, you you were familiar with wasabi oil, Stas?
+
+[4:22] No. Jack, wasabi oil? It's like real wasabi. Well, it's not re no, that's the thing. It's like real wasabi in the way that truffle oil is real truffles.
+
+[4:29] It's not, you know. So what it what it typically is is um some form of neutral oil carrier with uh mustard oil in it, the spicy stuff, not the unspicy stuff, and then a couple of other flavorings that are added to make it approximate wasabi, right? And even though it's not real, I love it. I think it's good stuff. But but it's were you there that time I had that like half hour or hour long argument with Dave Chang about Wasabi mashed potatoes?
+
+[4:55] No. Yeah, whatever. I don't want to get into it. But the uh he hates them. He thinks that you cannot make a good mashed potato with any flavoring of wasabi in it.
+
+[5:04] And I disagree. I think that a potato, I'm not saying that it's not like used or spent, or that like, you know, I don't know, maybe Applebee's had it on their menu at some time or whatever, or I'm not saying it's not like ridiculously cross-cultural in some sort of way, but there's nothing wrong. Like if you were to have if someone, if you were having like mashed potatoes, and somebody dropped a little wasabi in from the sushi that they were eating, and you tasted it, and they were really creamy mashed potatoes, you wouldn't be like, this sucks. Right. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:33] Right. But I couldn't get that, couldn't get the three. You know another thing that's good? Miso cream miso soup, also good. Is it traditional?
+
+[5:38] No. Does it taste good? Yeah. Yeah, it tastes good. Anyway, well, I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[5:42] I happen to like wasabi oil for various applications. So I have some in my house. Now, wasabi oil is earth-shatteringly um pungent in the way horseradish is, right? To your nose and your eyes, right? So Dax wakes up this morning and he goes to the the pantry, and kids, right?
+
+[6:03] He's 10, he just turned 10. Totally, they don't care where their body is. They knock stuff over, they're used to it. They're like, it's an accident. I'm like, so it's I mean, it is an accident, and the fact that you didn't intend to do it, but on the other hand, it's not an accident and that you didn't arrange your life such that you wouldn't happen.
+
+[6:17] You know what I mean? Like, that's that's but what I try to tell him all the time. You know, it's like, so anyways, so he reaches in, grabs something, pulls out, knocks over the freaking bottle of wasabi oil. It does like a triple somersault, opens and pours wasabi oil all over our uh our roomba, our robotic vacuum system, uh, all over the floor, all over Dax's hands. I'm like, oh my god.
+
+[6:45] Jen Lake, so she hears me saying, oh my god, because it's like the worst thing that could ever happen. And then all of a sudden, Dax, I think he touched his face with his hands, and he starts calling, my eyes! My eyes! And he's running around, we're like flushing him, and I literally, in the pantry, which is closed, couldn't stay in there for longer than five seconds at a time while we were cleaning up all this wasabi oil. He's like, Daddy, you should not have that stuff in the house.
+
+[7:10] And I'm like, Nah, you should not spill that stuff, Dax. Kind of true. What do you mean? Well, it's cooking. Where they can't up high.
+
+[7:19] Where they can't. Yeah, I guess, but you know, he climbs on top of chairs and whatever. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, nightmare.
+
+[7:27] You gotta call her? I do. Alright, call her. Call her you're on the air. Hi, can you hear me?
+
+[7:31] Yeah, sure. So I have a question about immersion circulators and making stock less broth. I I got a uh one of the uh the fans airstick for for Christmas and I've been fooling around with it. And I was wondering if there's any any reason that you would want to cook in water to make a perfectly cooked meat and make the broth that extracts the liquid. I don't know if you know if if this is you know make a less flavored broth than you would if you just cook it at higher temperatures.
+
+[8:03] But I sort of like the idea of it of having the meat usable and having the broth flavored, and I guess Indiana would like to see if there's any way to make a per up like a bolito meat soap perfectly cooked with all the meats together, but that's sort of the long term game. Right. I kind of understand what you mean. Here here here are the issues, right? So when you're doing uh a low temp work with uh a stock, you're never gonna get the kind of uh gelatin extraction that you would get um because the temperatures aren't so it's gonna take you know f forever and and whatnot.
+
+[8:37] But you are on to something, um and I I use this kind of technique uh a lot or used to, uh, for a number of reasons. Okay, so what are they? Typically, when you're when you're cooking a uh a stock, you need a ra relatively large quantity of whatever you're gonna flavor the stock with to make um and you you need a relatively large quantity of water, right? And so this can be anth antithetical to the meat tasting good and to how you're going to make your stock, or you just simply might not have enough of your product around. So the classic one that we always did back at the FCI was uh squab.
+
+[9:14] You know, you want to make a very strong tasting squab like uh roast bones squab stock, but you you know you don't have that many squab bones, so what do you do? So what we would do then is take an already made stock, pack a not that much, you know, not that high amount of it in into a bag and circulate it, and then you can extract that flavor out of the relatively small quantity of meat and bones that you have and get a really squabby kind of a stock that would be difficult to do in a pot just because you don't have that many of them around, right? So that's that's one kind of an uh an application. But the other thing is is that you you have the ability to do full wet cooking, like you know, like a like a uh a poach, but in a much smaller amount of liquid. So if you start with a cooking liquid that is uh equal to uh or higher in flavor than the meat that you're using, then you will not leach uh you know huge amounts of flavor out of your meat.
+
+[10:16] You might transfer, like they might equalize in flavor somehow, but you're not gonna leach a huge amount of flavor out. If you add a bunch of water to the to the meat, then obviously you're gonna be leaching some of the flavor out, but a lot of times that's okay because we kind of like the flavor of like a mild poach thing when it's kind of in a stock, or if you're doing like a pot of feur or something like this, you're used to having the meat itself not be as flavorful because it's been leached out somewhat by the stock, but you can create a uh you know, because you're not using as much water, you can have it more intensely uh flavored. However, you're not going to have that much reduction. So you have to take into account the fact that there's no reduction and decrease proportionally the amount of liquid that you're gonna put in. The um other thing is is that usually when you're in a bag at low temperature, uh I mean you can go very high temperature, you could boil it, in which case that's not the case.
+
+[11:06] But at lower temperature, uh even though you're gonna extract flavors out as you cook in in a in a broth, you're never going to get that shredded consistency that you would get from the higher temperatures because it just doesn't happen in in the bag uh at those low temperatures. Now you could just put the bag in and boil it, which is what we would do, not boil it but simmer it, which is what we would do for squab stocks, because really we're trying to get maximum flavor extraction out. We're not trying to keep the meat uh of that stock at a at a kind of a nice eating texture, right? Because it's hard to get it kind of both ways there. Um the other caveat I would add is any veg that you're gonna put in, you gotta pre-cook because unless you're going to do very high temps, uh like traditional temps, in which case it'll all taste traditional, but if you're not gonna do traditional temps, you're not gonna cook the veg at the same temperature you can cook the meat.
+
+[11:51] Is this being helpful at all or no? Yeah, no, I think I think it's uh a matter of experimentation too. Because I you know, I don't really have that much experience with the bag cooking. Period. Yeah.
+
+[12:01] So I think it's just figuring out what works and and what doesn't. I mean, I think that I don't have a pressure cooker, but I'm also thinking that I should get one to combine the method to make a really intense stock and then combine it with meat cooked in bag and then sort of combine them at the end and maybe something, you know, in I I I imagine it could have, you know, more flavor of both elements than than doing uh just boiling in the in the liquid. If that makes sense. Right, sure. Well, there's I mean, well, okay, well, I'll break it down to you there in terms of kind of how to think when you're running your experiments.
+
+[12:34] And once you start thinking in terms of what the bag does uh versus what your normal cooking does, it's you know, it's it's pretty pretty simple. You got to break the bag down into two different components. You either A, use the bag b well, there's you a use the bag because you want to cook low temperature, right? In which case, now you're talking about uh temperature control phenomenon, right? And that's what you're aiming to work at.
+
+[12:58] Or two, you're using the bag because you um don't want to have to use a lot of liquid, and the bag is going to keep your liquid in contact with your product, right? So those are the two kind of reasons you you would choose it. The third is you're not gonna lose volatiles out of the bag, the way that you would lose when you're cooking, uh, and that's good for certain kinds of flavors that tend to change a lot because they uh volatilize as you cook. But you have to add to that the fact that there is no reduction in the bag. I mean, that's the primary that's the primary thing that people fail to wrap their heads around.
+
+[13:36] All other cooking techniques that aren't in the bag, even in some pressure cookers, although pressure if you're used to pressure cookers, you'll notice that you get much less reduction in the pressure cooker, even a venting pressure cooker, non-venting pressure cooker is almost like a bag in that you get almost no reduction, but that's very hard to kind of wrap your head around because when you're doing traditional cooking that's not sealed, right? You're used to at least getting even if it doesn't look like it's reducing that much, remember, as a meat cooks, it gives off juices. And as it gives off juices, those dilute the juices that are in the in the bag or in the pressure cooker, which is why do you do you think let's just say if for an experiment, what's just filled bottle with water, have a you know, a chicken in it, cook it without the bag? Is it you're not gonna get enough gelatin extraction to make have the stock have a body, and you're also just cooking it too low of a temperature to get flavor into the water? Removing it from the the the bag of the equation entirely.
+
+[14:34] Oh, uh yeah, I mean, look, uh uh uh a lot depends. If you like I used to do before I had the like Jacques Popin had a book that came out in the eighties that was kind of his two-volume set of how to cook the color one, not the black and white one that was great. And he had a uh uh a recipe for chicken salad that uh that was Danny Kay's original recipe. Uh, you know, the composer and actor and uh and uh conductor, actually, I don't know if he was a composer, a conductor and actor. And uh his old recipe for cooking the chicken was to load it into a pot, just barely cover it with water, bring it up to a simmer, and then cover it and let it ride, the same way that you know a lot of people do with uh in fact the way I do it, with boiled eggs, when you're doing a lot of hard boiled eggs.
+
+[15:18] You know, bring it up to a simmer and let it ride, because it's not gonna overcook that much as it cools down, but you're in that window of cooking temperature long enough that yeah. And uh I used to do that all the time, and I would always, you know, even if I was gonna take out the breasts, hack them up and pack them down, as long as your water to meat ratio is relatively low, the broth tastes pretty dang good. It does not gonna have the gelatin extraction, it's never gonna have the body that a fully cooked stock was, but it tastes quite delicious. Yeah. And so just to finish up, would if you're doing it going back to the bag with a minimum amount of liquid, do you want the liquid w what do you want to do with seasoning beforehand?
+
+[15:57] You want the liquid fully seasoned beforehand? And then salt the meat, or is that is it different with with a lot of liquid versus the minimal amount of liquid, or is it again you have to experiment to figure out what tastes right? I mean you you have to do some experimenting, but just know that that when you put raw meat into a bag with a liquid, the quantity of liquid is going to increase drastically when you cook, right? And so in general um you I kind of have to over-reduce. It doesn't necessarily mean over spice, but it just means kind of over-reduce.
+
+[16:37] Um and in in general, like it's hard to say with the specific recipe you're going to use. In general, when you're putting something into a bag, vacuum sealing it in a bag, a rule of thumb is if the seasoning in question has an aroma, right, then you decrease it, the amount that's going in. And if you have something that's no aroma, which really what we're talking about here is salt, right, then you keep the level the same because the bag tends to intensify flavors that um are very high in aromatics, think rosemary, think sage, and also like those herbs can, if they're in direct contact with uh meat in a bag, uh actually imprint themselves and make a little kind of like green spot and kind of like a weird funky flavor right at the point of contact if there's a hard vacuum sucked against an herb without any sort of liquid in there. So it as a general rule of thumb, I would uh salt everything as per normal. If the meat has the right amount of salt on it and even your hyper reduced stock has the right right amount of salt in it as it's reduced, then when they all come together, they should be okay.
+
+[17:47] Um and other things, you know, you decrease in order. Like I don't decrease pepper on the outside of my steak when I'm going to put it in the bag, but I do decrease things like rosemary. You know. Yeah, well, again, it's like another thing is remember if you what I typically what you what I'll do when I'm doing work in in the bag is there's certain things that I know I'm not gonna eat that are only for like uh a stock, right? And they're not gonna be for the final service.
+
+[18:24] And so those things I'll pressure cook and make a pre-pressure cooked stock that's like done, and then that one you'll at you'll reduce and add in as a base in your bag, and then you can get that nice kind of like poached flavor out with a much more intense flavor in the bag without overcooking the meat. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes perfect sense, 'cause that's a you know, some of these you know, something like turkey wings and bealbone and stuff like that that you're not gonna serve anyway as a meat. Yeah, roast them and pressure cook 'em. You know, hack 'em up, roast 'em, pressure cook 'em.
+
+[18:57] Remember when you're pressure cooking, you have to um one of two one of two problems will happen. Uh you either need to add a lot more uh alliums, like things like onion or garlic, um, because the the flavors of those things are very highly muted. So you need to add a a bunch of it. The the flip side of that is all of a sudden your stock becomes a lot sweeter. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:20] Or you can freshen it with a little bit of um like sauteed, whatever you like, you know, leeks, shallots, onions, whatever you like. You know what I mean? But you can freshen it up after the pressure cook with that. Or I mean I've come to really like that kind of muted sweet flavor, but I just like easily double or triple the amount of onion that I would add to a normal stock when I'm doing it. But it does come out a bit sweeter, is the one caveat I'll have to give you.
+
+[19:45] Okay. Well, looks like I have to invest in the pressure cooker. Oh, definitely. Definitely. This is super helpful.
+
+[19:53] I'll let you know, okay. All right, thanks for calling in. Uh all right, so wait, break. You want to take a break and come back with some more cooking issues? Mm-hmm.
+
+[20:00] All right, Jack. Hey, wait, Dave. How do you uh how do you pronounce pho? Oh, I'm terrible at that. I don't know that.
+
+[20:07] Yeah, a good one there. Yeah. I forget how you said it, but it was uh I never heard it quite like that. Well, there would I even mention Vietnamese? I thought so.
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+[20:15] I don't know. I think it now I was probably saying something else, man. Oh no, pata pho. Oh French. Oh.
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+[20:22] Yeah. Oh, my bad. Pata fe. We'll be right back. Special break song today by a band called Mamarazzi.
+
+[20:42] This is cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. White Oak Pastures is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse. And it's um USDA inspected poultry abattoir or slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years.
+
+[21:19] Full circle return to sustainable land stewardship. You may need animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oak Pastures.com. Okay, Jack. When did you change the background to that to like porn ribian music?
+
+[21:38] I did that just for you today. Yeah? Nice. I like that. It's like, you know, he used to have like the, you know, does he know that his like well, no, it's an ad, he his ad is without music.
+
+[21:49] So whatever the break song is, that's what we play underneath his ad. So, you know, it's uh you never know what you're gonna get. Wow, yeah. I like that. Yeah.
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+[21:59] Spices it up, you know. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Uh we by the way, we have a question that you're gonna have to answer later that came in uh that you know, hopefully, hopefully uh we get to. Cool.
+
+[22:09] Uh here's an update from uh Bryce J D on his rumtoff. You remember we were talking about keeping fruits firm uh as they're soaking in liquor over many months. So we have our uh several month later um update. I wanted to inform Dave of my results on dosing rum tough with Novo Shape. Novo shape is the enzyme, it's a uh pectin methylesterase enzyme that uh helps fruits stay firm.
+
+[22:34] Oh, or anything with pectin, it really stay firm. Like you could use it with cucumbers and you're doing just pickles, but you know, you could do things like soak it, uh soak uh you need calcium with it, but you can soak uh like raspberries with it and then boil the hell out of them, and nothing happens to them. Anyway, the fruit firmed up nicely. I started my batch in June and added fruit and rum throughout the summer. I was unable to use the fruit though, as it took on a nasty brown color.
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+[23:00] Look at Mustazes. Oh, yeah, she I saw her. Her lip just went nasty brown colored lip because in her mind I think it's associated with fungus and spools, and we all know how she feels about that. Uh I strained out the solids and was left with a clear pinkish liqueur. The liqueur is quite nice, floral, fruity, and not overly sweet.
+
+[23:20] I was wondering if Dave may know why the fruit turned brown. It would have been nice to have the fruit for a short bread or ice cream topping. You could have baked it into something, though. You could have blended that stuff up, right? And made some, right?
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+[23:31] Even if it's maybe we could have colored cover up the color somehow. Right? Mm-hmm. I don't know. It's gone now.
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+[23:37] It's over now. Fruit's gone now. Uh it would have been nice to have had the fruit for a short bread or ice cream topping. Also, was the liqueur clear because the Novo shape allowed the fruit to maintain its structure and not transfer solids into the liqueur. Uh respectfully sent for my iPhone, Bryce JD.
+
+[23:54] Well, I guess that's probably a good point. I hadn't thought about that before, but that's probably true. It didn't break down, so the liquor remained clear, right? That makes sense. But as for the browning, uh what you're dealing with here is a um a kind of long, long-term browning effect.
+
+[24:11] You need to add some antioxidants to that sucker, right? So when you're doing it, you're gonna either have to add uh some escarbic acid to it, right? Although remember, that's gonna lose its antioxidant potential over time. Uh, but I prefer it, you know. Like, I don't like the sodium metabisulfates and all those things.
+
+[24:28] But you're gonna need to add some form of uh anti-u-oxidant to it, and that should inhibit the browning. Most likely what you're looking at there is some form of uh oxidative browning that takes course over a long period of time, even in under the influence of uh heavy alcohol, whether it's enzymatic in nature, even though that those enzymes are like mostly denatured or or destroyed by the um by the booze, or whether you're dealing with the fact that um you know the enzyme is just catalyzing some uh catalyzing something that would take place over a long period of time anyway, so you just need to prevent the oxidation from happening any way you know how. High booze, one way, and um antioxidant, another way. And so I would definitely add some antioxidants to it next time and see whether that helps. But anyone that has experience with uh that I encourage them to uh write in.
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+[25:17] Let us know. Okay? All right. Um Joshua writes in about equipment. Greetings from Switzerland.
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+[25:25] Yeah, Stas had her happy face on. She likes the Swiss. Well, she doesn't like the Swiss. She likes the country, Switzerland, and she appreciates their fondue and their cheese. I see, it's a fondue thing.
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+[25:36] She loves fondue. Stas loves fondue. I was thinking of doing a fondue party next year for the kids. What do you think? That's good.
+
+[25:42] I think they like it. Yeah, I do. Chocolate, but I wanted to do also the boiling oil, old school, but but Jim was like, meh, boiling oil enough. Kids, yeah, maybe. I don't know.
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+[25:52] Remember, my ten-year-old just threw wasabi oil all over the house today, so you know, that was a knockback in that in that direction. This year was sushi. That is an expensive party to throw. The sushi party. Jesus.
+
+[26:04] I bought the super fancy uh rice too, everything. Full on. Yeah. And man, those kids don't know how to roll. That's pretty hard though.
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+[26:12] And then they want me to cut it right away, so like you know, I'm having to wipe my knife in between each cut because the grains are sticking to it. And so the kids just start eating it like it's a freaking tube. Like it's a fruit roll. In fact, he said it's a burrito, and I told Dax, I was like, Dax, who the hell taught you to make a burrito like this? It's like if you made a burrito in this fashion I would be I mean I said that I would I would become violently angry if you didn't fold the edges in I mean it it's not a burrito it's like a taquito it's and a taquito is fried you know what I mean I was saying so like I was so pretzeled by that whole thing and then like you know you have to dip your hand in the vinegared water but they're dipping their hand in the vinegared water and then touching the nori I'm like ah you know what I mean like it's like ruining the crunchiness on the nori and so why'd I spend all the money on the good nori I'm getting the nicest darkest densest crunchiest Nori flaming it with a Sears all to crisp it up.
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+[27:04] That's what happens when you throw a sushi party for kids. Well they specifically asked for it but I tell you what Booker Jen likes a fine fair sushi oh god well first of all they're not talking about that on on air by the way if any of you ever meet Dax don't mention that I'm talked about the uh uh wasabi oil because he's embarrassed by it but Jen my wife Jen and I used to laugh at fine fair as our local supermarket and we're like I was like did that tell talk about us in the air already I probably shouldn't gonna get in trouble. Thanks Stas but now I have to tell people what it is. No but if someone's gonna who knows you never know anyway so we're all like hey fine fair sushi who's gonna eat fine fair sushi that's ridiculous. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:42] And lo and behold one day she wasn't thinking she buys the freaking fine fair sushi and wow I had to go pick her up like she was like on the curb she was on the curb couldn't move anymore and called me and I had to go go get her because she just got debilitated by the by the sweet, sweet, sweet, fine fair sushi. Just don't order, don't order a sushi from a like uh don't buy the the sitting out sushi at the at the supermarket. Don't do that. Jack, do you do that? No.
+
+[28:14] But listen, my wife is like a very not just educated, talented, but educated food wise. You know what I mean? So she knows it was crazy, so I don't want to hear anyone telling that I don't want to hear this story getting back there that you brought this up on the air because it's not her proudest moment. It's right up there with me licking lye by mistake. Yeah, yeah, you remember that one.
+
+[28:35] Anyway, how the hell did we get on that? Oh, Switzerland. Sushi. Sushi, sushi party. No, Switzerland, because next year I was saying we could do a fondue party.
+
+[28:42] Because fondue is a good product. The kids would enjoy that. But it's not really make your own in the same way that pizza and sushi is, though. Maybe it is. Whatever.
+
+[28:50] Uh okay. My question, this is Joshua from Switzerland. My question relates to kitchen equipment. I'm a proud owner of an immersion circulator and an even prouder owner of a poly science 300 chamber vacuum sealer, which currently doesn't work, but that's another story. Um I would like to know what else I should get to uh experiment in my kitchen.
+
+[29:10] I would like something that is versatile. I can't read what you actually wrote because it's a lot of little boxes and squares and doodles. Like, you know how that happens sometimes? Like this, see it? See it?
+
+[29:20] It's like all the boxes and doodles and squiggles, like like Linus when he talks, like Linus from Peanuts. You know they're having a new peanuts movie coming out? And they're changing well, whatever. I'm withholding judgment. I would like to have something that is versatile and which I can use to experiment with various foodstuffs.
+
+[29:34] My first thought was a centrifuge. Okay, so listen, if your first thought is a centrifuge, I'm gonna assume that you have like you know, a decent well, I assume if you're Swiss, you have a Kun Ricon pressure cooker, right? Because don't they give it. This is Swiss German though? And I'm sure this guy's Switch German.
+
+[29:49] There's no Italian Swiss person. Well, I was saying, like, when you're born, maybe in Switzerland, they give you a Kuhn Recon pressure cooker the same way that when you're born in Sweden, they give you a copy of the ABBA album so that it can still be like a hugely selling album, right? Um anyway. Um first thought was a centrifuge. Would you agree on that or would you look into something else?
+
+[30:09] And if you agree on the centrifuge, what do you think about the Beckman Coulter Allegra series? Thanks for your help. Cheers, Joshua. Well, I think a centrifuge is fantastic. I love it, but I mean, all depends on how much cash you have.
+
+[30:19] The Allegra costs. I mean, if you're gonna spend six six thousand bucks or six thousand euros on the next piece of kitchen equipment and and you're not blinking when you do that, then I think a centrifuge is a great thing to buy, right? Um, because it's extremely versatile, you can do uh a lot of different things with it. I looked briefly at the Beckman Coulter Allegra ones. Um their spinning bucket rotors look like they re only get up to about there's a bunch of different series, so you have to look at what you get.
+
+[30:46] Um their swinging bucket ones look like they can do three liters, but they look like they only get to roughly 3700 G's somewhere in there, which is like on the verge of what I think is kind of good for that price range. Uh, most of the people that I know who uh get new centrifuges for the restaurant or bar get headach, which is also available in I think it's German. Uh and it's also available in Europe. Wiley Dufresne uses a headache. Um, and uh Tony Canayaro in uh London uses a headache, and I think he also might have one in Paris as barber, I'm not sure.
+
+[31:20] So I would look at the headches, they have pretty good numbers and uh they work well. But I looked at the Allegra, it should work. If you can get one that'll swinging bucket that'll do 4,000 G's, then you know, all the better. But um it's a good question. Like, if you're gonna spend eight grand, there's a lot of stuff you could buy for eight grand, right?
+
+[31:36] Like a couple extra circulators, which I would definitely buy, or um what else? I mean, a Paco Jet. I would love to have a Paco Jet. What do you buy first, uh? What do you think I would get first?
+
+[31:44] A Paco Jet or a centrifuge? Centerfuge. Probably. For me though, but I do a lot of bar work. I mean, I think a lot of chefs would prefer a Paco jet.
+
+[31:52] I mean, if you look around, more there's more Paco jets than there are centrifuges around. Um good coffee setup is another thing, but it's not necessarily versatile. You know what I mean? I mean, if you could do a lot of bar, if you're not gonna do a lot of bar work, I don't know that you're gonna spend like that much time with your with your centerfuge. It's a good question, though.
+
+[32:07] Anyway. Um Derek writes in regarding ice. Hi Dave, I followed the procedure for making clear ice in the freezer from liquid intelligence, that's the book, by pouring hot water into a cooler. I left it outside uh um, as it says approximately oh outside outside. 35 Fahrenheit, so you live in the northeast somewhere or north somewhere, for a few hours to cool down, then put it in the freezer.
+
+[32:30] The next morning I opened it uh to add some stock cubes to an existing stash, and there were ice crystals all over the lid and walls of the freezer. If I were to fasten a piece of plastic wrap over the cooler the next time, would that prevent crystal formation in my freezer or or would it end, or would it mess up the ice block formation? Thanks, Derek. Um well it might mess up the ice block formation. What I would say is put the plastic wrap over it.
+
+[32:54] That will definitely stop uh some of the you know steam and crap from coming up, and then just remove it right as the ice is starting to form. Uh I would don't leave it on, you're not you you definitely want to get rid of any insulating layer between the ice formation and uh the ice formation front and the freezer as it's freezing, but I don't think it's gonna hurt the ice block formation to have uh plastic wrap over it in the initial couple of hours as it's cooling down, and that should greatly reduce the amount of crystallization you get all over the inside of your um freezer yeah yeah yeah okay um I mean what I typically do is I throw um I throw ice I use hot water put it right in throw ice cubes in and get it down to basically below room temperature and as the ice cubes are melting out and I just don't stir it and I put it in which is another thing but you have to have cu clear smaller ice cubes uh sitting around for seeds which is what what I what I do not really seeds don't think of it as seeds they're not seeds take back that take back the word I said seeds okay look who's here what who's here who's here Johnny Johnny Zini no from Madison Johnny Hunter Really come on in nice we are joined in the studio now unexpectedly uh Johnny Hunter from the uh from the Underground Food Collective in uh Madison Wisconsin how you doing I'm doing pretty well how are you sorry I I just heard recently that you did a pop-up in the Brooklyn yeah we uh we did two days at uh Fitzcaraldo so how was it it was great I have to say we've done pop-ups in Manhattan and the kitchen size is a little bit better in Brooklyn we found out uh yeah yeah I would say that that's true the the benefits were really nice so yeah it was super fun um friend runs the restaurant so we just I was like I had to come out here anyway so we we always try to like line it up between doing events and also other things we have to come out for. So what what did you what did what did you make anything? It was mostly an exploration of like fermented turnips. Yeah.
+
+[35:01] Um yeah, I don't know. It's like for us, winter is like Wisconsin, so much of our food. So I think it's our it's w we we really try to go big time with like fresh flavors with winter vegetables. That was the whole thing. And then we had a bunch of beef that was we called it old beef, so we aged it out for about six months.
+
+[35:14] And then we just served that raw. Um what else do we do? By the way, how frozen up is Mad Town right now? Is it's actually really nice. It's like 35.
+
+[35:30] It was there was like two weeks there where it was like negative twenty. But are people skating on the lakes yet or no? Yep. Yeah. That's the best part.
+
+[35:37] Uh the if you if you can be active, your life is much better there. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean like uh well, maybe it's probably not smart to visit in the wintertime for a non-person from there, right? Uh I think the first two weeks of January generally have these days that are just like people just don't know how to deal with it. It's like, you know, you get in and it's like really cold, and there are things you really need to be recognizing of like, you know, layering and just like having hats and good gloves and and making sure that you're not, you know, you don't have your kids out in like the the the harsh wet elements.
+
+[36:13] But the thing is is like people are just really industrious about it and like it's just a reality. Yeah, yeah, well. Yeah, you know, us us wussies here from New York, you know, we look down on the people from the south who can't handle the code, but we're like, you know, we're nothing. We're we're we're jack odds to you guys. I'm glad you're here actually, because I have a uh coffee, uh not coffee, a centerfuge uh another centrifuge question in, and I would like to talk about your story.
+
+[36:38] Your centerfuck story, if possible. Uh okay. So we got a question in last week from Steven uh Hoppy from Chicago. Uh and he said that contact he he wanted to know whether or not he should buy the centerfuge, and I said, Meh meh. I think that's what I said, roughly.
+
+[36:53] Meh. What was did it was it because of the brand or because of whether or not he should get it? Uh I couldn't see on the inside. There was a lot of like issues and it didn't get to a high enough. There's a lot of issues.
+
+[37:03] Anyway, I contacted a seller and he said they don't have a rotor for the unit. That's a parchfuge. You know? Yeah, I mean our maybe I just explain our experience with centrifuges because we have the University of Wisconsin there. Yeah, right.
+
+[37:22] And so they l we get about we I have like 15 now. You should go into business selling these suckers. Um it's been this thing where you know I've learned a lot about how to take them apart and use them and stuff, because it's just like it's like if something's not working, I was like, well just grab it out of that one. We we we haven't even plugged them all in yet. So you know, it's hard when I see people looking on eBay and asking a lot of questions, it's like, well, I gotta go and inspect them and look at them and stuff.
+
+[37:50] And so you do, you know, and I should say I do like getting new rotors because we had that experience where the rotor broke. That's what I wanted you to kind of talk about. Johnny is the only like cook I know of that's had a real freaking failure. Like a real freaking rotor failure. You want to describe this?
+
+[38:07] Yeah, so we have um what's the brand now? It's uh they had the square buckets. That I can't remember, but it was it's not the the Joule or what? Uh not the juan. I think wasn't it like didn't Beckman cool down use?
+
+[38:20] Yep, Beckman. Yeah. Um so we we had a Beckman and it had a glass top, which was awesome. Oh yeah, I've used those for they're awesome. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:29] Um and we you know, we went through and we, you know, visually inspected everything. Um but we didn't there there there's a there's a centrifuge company in town that will, you know, pressure test the steel and stuff like that. We need to disgrace everything. Yeah. So we did that, we do that now.
+
+[38:45] Anyway, so we had a bucket, we had a bucket that that broke because it had a hairline fracture that we didn't know about. And uh it threw the bucket into the wall of the centrifuge, which then moved the centrifuge three feet um and like shook the building, which is just like a concrete floor, and everyone was just like someone was standing, you know, near it, and it wouldn't it wouldn't have hurt anyone bad. Not bad. I mean like you know, like you know broken leg maybe, but it also happened like within the first week that we had it, and uh so like the centrifuge was definitely a scared thing around the kitchen, so we've taken a lot more precautions now. I'm glad you soldiered on.
+
+[39:31] He's like, it wouldn't have hurt any worse than stepping in a bear trap. That happens like every every other day anyway. So man, and yeah, the building's not like some sort of puny flimsy building that you should be able to hear minor things through. It's like it's an old bus station. Yeah, well, the here's the good news though.
+
+[39:45] The good news is, and I had been worried for a long time because it's the same class of centrifuge that you know a lot of us have, which is the three-liter bench top fuge. Um and they all roughly do about they all well, they hold roughly three liters and they roughly do about four thousand G's. And I had never seen one fail, so it always been my impression that no one would die. And then when Johnny was like, hey, it happened. I was like, hey, did anybody die?
+
+[40:11] He's like, No, I'm like, sweet. You know what I mean? Yeah, it was uh that Mark the Spark was the person sitting next to it. Oh classic. Classic.
+
+[40:22] Uh all right. So uh we had a uh this is more of a comment on uh last week. Uh remember we were talking about my uh new coffee grinder thing that I was working on, Orphan Espresso. Remember us talking about those guys? You know those guys orphan espresso?
+
+[40:33] Yeah. Do you know them personally? No, I just seen their products. Yeah, I really want one of the Pharoses, but the guy they just don't care. They make them when they come in and they sell out in like two seconds.
+
+[40:42] Yeah. The Lido too you can get. But um anyway, so then um who was it? Joel Esposito, who has a really good grinder, wrote wrote in this comment, which I thought was interesting. Um I am a coffee espresso, uh coffee slash espresso, so pour over slash espresso uh enthusiasts, and just wanted to comment on the hand grinders mentioned in the last show.
+
+[41:02] At the office I grind my morning cup in a Malkonig uh EK forty three with ninety-eight millimeter burrs, one and three quarter horsepower motor motor and photos attached. So that that happens to be a very large but a flat burr grinder. Uh and it's uh super popular over the past couple of years. It was uh not designed necessarily to be a coffee uh grinder, but since I think about like 2013 or something, there's been like a cadre of people that have been using it for coffee. And um the interesting thing about it is um um you you know how for those of you that don't know or think about grinders, right?
+
+[41:37] So every grinder we uh a lot of people like they split it into well, is it flat or is it conical? But you know, really even within those within those categories, every grinder has its own kind of gr grind profile, right? And so like the people who really care about this, what they do is is they take the grinds out of a coffee grinder or any kind of grinder, and then they plot particle size, uh the the frequency of the distribution of particle sizes. And for most good espresso grinders, you get what's called a bimodal plot, where you get some uh you know, uh a large peak that's centered uh in the kind of general range where you want your um coffee particles to be, and then you get another peak lower in what's called the fines, and you get these kind of fine particles. And um so there's a lot of debate as what the kind of ultimate uh grind profile is, but the truth also is is that uh any grinder, the more you tune it down to be finer, right, the more bimodal the plot becomes because you get more fines out of something when you when you tune it down.
+
+[42:33] So then the there's a lot of questions, and you can just go on the internet and look up particle distributions for different coffee and you can see it. But the this uh the EK43 is renowned for making of like a good kind of grind ratio that can work with a lot of different kinds of coffee etc. It's more even, isn't it? That's what that's what they say. Yeah, there's fewer particle.
+
+[42:50] There are fewer fines, I think. I gotta go back and look at the thing, but you gotta remember also, uh I mean, think about what a fine is doing. So if the fines are doing two separate things, right? A fine is A gonna extract faster because it's fine, right? And B in um things like uh espresso uh fines migrate to the bottom of the puck and like cause higher hydraulic pressures, so that you know you need a you would need a coarser overall thing to make up for the fact you have these fines because the fines are packing in between and causing, or in a filter they can clog up filters, right?
+
+[43:24] And so they can s they can change your flow rate as well as infuse differently. So I mean that there's m it's mul multimodal what's going on again, multimodal with what's going on with anyway. So that's just a little uh little preamble to Joel's uh comment here. So here's what he said, which I think is really interesting. Uh oh, let me get to it.
+
+[43:45] Um okay. At the office I grind my morning cup in a Malkonig EK forty three. Uh at home I grind in a small Hario hand grinder, very small burrs. Uh that's the little little which by the way I have it, but I just hate grinding it because it just takes so damn long. I know.
+
+[44:01] It it this is how I time like heating up my water. He's like, I try to beat it with the grinder. Actually, I have a I have a burr grinder now, but oh yeah, and I sit there and like you know how you get angry when you're turning that knob and and it and you you push it too hard and the beans fly out of the hotel. And then the knob comes off and then the threads get stripped. Um I'm familiar with all of those things.
+
+[44:20] Yeah, it's nice. It's it works. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh so they uh the hand grinder, very small burrs. Uh the former is a beast powering through a cup's worth of coffee before I can hit the off button.
+
+[44:31] That must be nice. Uh the particle size distribution is incredibly even, and the first uh uh cup I ground in it had practically no fines. I think he's talking about the Malconig again here. Okay. However, after breaking in the Malconig, I've noticed uh a marked increase in fines production, which uh seems to not only create muddy flavors in the cup, but somehow simultaneously masks the wonderful volatiles that I paid hard-earned money for in single origin coffees at the local indie shop.
+
+[44:57] It's not a huge issue for single cup pourovers, but when you're brewing two to four cups, six ounces each, the pesky fines impede the flow of water and slow the extraction rate. Makes sense, right? I've done side-by-sides, actually back to back, seeing as I can only prepare one cup at a time uh of the hario unsived versus oh, and then uh he didn't mention this, but he he bought a uh a humble, which is a manufacturer, uh, uh a 500 micron sieve. And so he's sitting there. Uh somehow this got confused in the in the in the email thing, but what he did was is he took his heart his uh his hand grinder and put it through a sieve to get rid of the fines.
+
+[45:32] Yeah, so there's that guy in Madison who does that. Professionally? Well, he like he he works at shops and stuff and he'll like sieve the coffee. What a bitch, huh? Yeah.
+
+[45:42] Anyway, but I mean I I love it. I appreciate it. Anyway, so um so he did the he did a side by side of the Hario unsivved versus passed uh through the uh 500 micron sieve to eliminate the fines. Not only does the flow rate improve, which we would expect, uh, but he gets the same quality that he gets out of the 98 millimeter um flat burrs on the uh Malkonic. He says it's an equal cup quality.
+
+[46:04] That was like a three thousand dollar grinder. Yeah, somewhere in there. So there's always he's saying for like a hundred and hundred bucks or like si I mean, the sieve would be like fifteen bucks to create. Yeah, like thirty maybe. Yeah.
+
+[46:16] Like if you buy it pre-made. Yeah, it's like thirty bucks. Yeah. So this is what he's saying. Uh oh, by the way, he says he doesn't waste the fines, he simply adds them.
+
+[46:23] And he said actually, he says it's as good as the Malconi was before like when it was brand new before it started creating the fines. Yeah. So it goes back to where he back to where it once belonged. So he said he doesn't waste the fines, I simply add them back to the rest of my coffee during the final phase of extraction or uh run them through my Goggia cra uh classic, which surprisingly produced a drinkable uh shot of espresso. Uh this method still has a wider range of particle sizes, but all that matters to me is the perceived end result, knowing that I may uh because remember there's larger ones in there that you wouldn't get in the Malconic like bigger ones.
+
+[46:51] So therefore he says knowing that I may have failed to extract a few parts per million of solids from a couple of larger coffee chunks doesn't bother me. The bottom line is the $35 Hario plus a sieve produce a cup comparable to a 2k plus grinder. We we used to use the harios to grind pepper for our salami company. And we would take drills, take the top off, and just like grind the pepper through it. It was great.
+
+[47:16] Yeah? Yeah. I had to I don't know whether I've seen a lot of drill mods. You know, as someone asked, okay, I uh my whirly pop from my roaster, I put a motor mod on that with a small one. But someone asked me to post it.
+
+[47:26] I'm gonna probably go to home barista and I'll post it on something like that because I have like a you know um um an STL file to put it. Yeah but uh do a lot of people put drills onto the hararios or no? I'd never I was just like grinding pepper one day. Is there a bitch? I have the Lido, the Lido 2 grinds, I mean it's a slower than you know, my you know, Ranchillo, but it's a lot faster than the Hario.
+
+[47:51] Yeah. Yeah. We um we also use the drill for Cavitelli makers. Yeah? Oh, could book book Yeah, you just put a drill on the back, just whip through it.
+
+[48:01] Another note on the Hario, by the way, is that uh so there's a big um there's a big thing I'm gonna do, right? And they're gonna kick us off a second. There's a big thing I'm gonna do with uh whether or not your burr should be suspended on both like anchored on both sides, right? When you're doing a burr and a grinder. Uh and so a lot of the people that have done kind of mods do one side mount only.
+
+[48:25] The guys at Orphan Espresso, um, they're a believer in firmly mounting the burrs. Yeah. Right. Uh and you know, that's I guess one of the reasons they say that they get like good distribution on their stuff. I think it moves.
+
+[48:38] I noticed that. Moves up and down, yeah, but not left and right. Yeah. Right? Oh, the hario you mean?
+
+[48:43] Yeah, the hario moves around. Yeah. So if you mount it on the bottom, that would be great. Right. Well, he sells, so that's why the Orphan Espresso sells for 14 bucks a uh a plate that you can bolt into the bottom of your Hario that mount pins it on both sides that you then adjust and tack it down for 14 bucks.
+
+[49:01] And he's what he says in the in the thing in his explanation of it is that, well, if you do this, it will no longer be good for espresso. But it's good for coarser coffee. I want to go back to the sieve. Why can't you just create a a wider sieve to let the grinds go through that you want? And then a thinner one, and so then their middle packet you get, you know, completely consistent.
+
+[49:25] Oh, yeah, you totally could. Yeah. I mean it seems like You totally could, but you you could choose exactly the range you want to pass. You get I mean if you're a real n like nutweed about it, you could just have it like you could get small one and put it in one of those little blah blah blah. You know those little and then like just grind into the and just pull the middle guy out.
+
+[49:43] Like put a little, you know. And then you can make like another extraction with the fines and the large and you know, compare it. But I don't know. Uh the people say that that some difference in in grind size is good for flavor. It gets a little too flat out at the same extraction.
+
+[49:58] I don't know. Well, yeah, I mean, look, they're gonna extract differently with bro with brewing kinetics, right? It's all about the kinetics of it, it's gonna change. But I guarantee you you could sell someone if you had like mega coarse and then like the fines and then like the in-betweeners, you could definitely like, especially if you did different brewing styles for each one of those three things, you could be like, well. Yeah.
+
+[50:25] But I need to become an expert in kind of pourovers, because I don't know any, I'm not so we but that would be it'd be interesting thing, right? Like like take the same exact bean, grind grind them at the same time, produce three entirely different cups of coffee with them. Yeah, with a you know, forty dollar hand grinder. Yeah, and uh and a little wagon of w- Well, you know what I'm modifying modifying my Lido 2, which is the Orphan Espresso hand small hand grinder, um, to be stationary. Oh, that's nice.
+
+[50:49] Yeah, so see, because I I hate unscrewing the glass because every time I unscrew the glass jar from it, so it's got a glass jar, just like a Hario does, but y it's very easy to screw up your uh grind when you unscrew it. So I'm and I always break the jars. Really? I'm not gonna use a jar anymore. Yeah.
+
+[50:59] Jar, we can get rid of it. It's all plastic now with a little cup. That's what I that's what I'm doing. Uh okay. So there are there's some we're not gonna we don't have time, but I got some good uh comments back, especially with like a uh a liqu on liquid intelligence, the book, with someone who's got a um a method to fake the Thai basil dacquery if you don't have access to Thai basil, which is kind of cool.
+
+[51:26] But we'll have to get to that. Who doesn't have a like do they not have like an Asian grocery store? Yeah, they went to somebody's house or something like this. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[51:32] This has come up before uh for me before. Um but but actually I wanted to mention these two Amazon I have two favorite Amazon reviews that just came on. I got a three-star and a one star, right? Recently. The one star I think is the three-star thing is worse than the one star.
+
+[51:48] They're they're both pretty bad. But why don't you why are you? So the one star is a great book for a chemist. For the layman mixologist, it is too much useless information. But that's one star?
+
+[52:00] That's one star. One minute requires chemistry. Too much of a degree. Which is not true, dude. Let me tell you what, one star is I've given you incorrect information.
+
+[52:09] This useless person could just open up to the one like f four-page section where I just put like 50 classic cocktails in with like how to make them and their specs and easy to look at format. Rip it out and throw the rest of the book away and it's worth more than one freaking star. But also, why uh why is that a criticism? Like, why would you buy this book? You know, if you want like just easy cocktails.
+
+[52:33] Like, you know, like it's like this book is for a specific audience, you know. If you were to just to do, oh, here's 50 classics. Who cares? Yeah, that book's been written. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[52:43] Anyways, that's it. That's that person, they need they need to get crushed. You know what I mean? But here with here's the other one. The three star was this was a gift.
+
+[52:53] I think it was liked, but I can't read it since it was not for me. It was a gift. Three stars! If you can't rate it, you can't rate it! Don't rate it.
+
+[53:01] So was the person giving it as a gift? Yeah. They gave it as a gift to someone else. They were gave it three stars. I'm like, I don't really know whether it was good or bad.
+
+[53:09] I think the person I gave it to liked it, but I can't really rate it. So I'll just rate it in the middle because I don't know. It could be, you know, like what does that have to do with it? A one star review should be that the the author is like either grossly inaccurate, or if the book is horribly written, or they suggest something abhorrent, like chumming babies. You know what I mean?
+
+[53:33] And like anything else, you're just a jerk. You know what I mean? Uh, people. People. I flag.
+
+[53:39] We we sold a lot of your books at our butcher shop because people just buy stuff during the holidays. Oh, nice. So I was a little worried. People are just like, we're just gonna buy what's ever here. We have like two books there.
+
+[53:49] And like they're like, okay, well, let's be good. So a lot of people are like, hopefully, there's a lot of people out there searching for their own home centrifuge systems now. Well, but remember, like in the book, I say like I don't expect you to buy any of this crap. Yeah, you know what I mean? But uh I'll give you ways around it, but uh why not tell you how we do it?
+
+[54:06] Why not tell you how we do it? Alright, so we're not gonna get to Alex and Toronto's question, nor are we gonna get to uh Louis uh Frederic Michel. Hope I got your name right. He said good luck with pronouncing that one. But uh but the thing is if I'm gonna do it America style, it'd be like Louis Frederick Michael.
+
+[54:20] Right? That's how you do it American. Michel, probably is how it's uh supposed to be pronounced. But on the way out, Jack, you're gonna have to chime in on this one, and Johnny, you chime in to Dave, Nastasia, and Jack's favorite bands and Johnny's favorite bands. And PS, can we get Dave to do a certain mix a lot style?
+
+[54:35] I like big burrs and I cannot lie. And I won't. I won't. Why not? You've done it.
+
+[54:40] But you won't do that. Big burden. Oh, well, those other brothers can tonight. You've done it before. Yeah, come on.
+
+[54:47] I've never done big butts, have I? Yes. Really? Yes. Do it.
+
+[54:53] If I've already done it, we'll have to search the thing. So what do you got, Jack? What's your current favorite? What do you listen to? I answered him.
+
+[54:59] This was my list. You can make fun of me if you'd like. So it was uh Radiohead, Bjork, Outcast, Apex Twin, The Flaming Lips. Oh, yeah. That's my list.
+
+[55:07] Well, Stas saw Bjork at a party, and you know what Stas's comment was? Dirty tennis shoes. Yeah. She said, the lady is so rich. What's she doing with dirty tennis shoes?
+
+[55:14] I don't like Dirty tennis shoes? I'm wearing the dirtiest tennis shoes right now. You're not Bjork. Yeah, you're not true. I did get on the train today and I saw someone's white shoes, and and these are like three weeks old, and they're white and they're now they're gray.
+
+[55:27] I was like, oh my goodness. I like the phenomenon of people that wear only white and they get filthy, like filthy white. That's like Kareem Rasheed, the famous designer's got the filthy white going, which is kind of sweet. At least it used to. Okay, what do you got, Johnny?
+
+[55:37] What do you got for us? Uh Sonic Youth. Yeah? Yeah. Like old school Sonic Youth?
+
+[55:42] Old School Sonic Youth. I like that. Nice. Alright. Stas, what do you got?
+
+[55:45] I don't know. Come on, just name some crap you like. Uh or who do you hate the most? Who you love to hate? Yeah, Nastasia's hate list.
+
+[55:52] There you go. No, when I was working out yesterday, I was listening to The Croachy. Oh, Jim Croce? Dean Nick Dean Nick. Like Stas likes any anyone who crashes an airplane in the south with smashes.
+
+[56:04] Is that true? No. No? Like that little girl in Kentucky or whatever. Oh man, the one in the crawled or that was crazy.
+
+[56:11] We talked about it on the show for some reason. Anyway, what do I like? Stas does like the crochet. So for those of you that don't know us, like Stas and I have a couple of like internal running jokes that we do that we don't do on the air. So Jim Croce was uh well known.
+
+[56:24] Well, one of his famous songs was uh Yeah Operator, right? And then he's like talking to this operator, and he's like like chewing this freaking operator's ear off. So Stas and I are joking about like the hell's wrong with you. The operator doesn't give a crap. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:37] And then like he at the end is like, you can keep the dime. Well, of course she freaking can. She's trying to. It's a phone companies. Well, yeah, whatever.
+
+[56:44] Right, it's not even hers. The other one that we always do is the uh what's that song called? I know it's oh, I just had to say I love you in a song. Where it's like, calls up this lady, and he's like, I know it's kinda late. I hope I didn't wake it.
+
+[56:56] He keeps on freaking talking and talking. It's like 3 a.m. in the freaking morning. He keeps on talking and talking, and Stas and I are like, the phone rings at 3 a.m. And you're like, who died?
+
+[57:05] Who dies? And he's like, I know it's kinda late. And you're like, what the hell? Anytime like he called us, he'd be like, eh. That would be all we got.
+
+[57:15] Anyway, I'll talk about my favorite bands next time. Cooking issues! Uh well, what I I like so many different kinds of bands. Give him one. Yeah.
+
+[57:23] Yeah. Uh for country, I like Merle Haggard. Perfect. All right. Cooking issues.
+
+[57:36] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit.
+
+[58:03] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday from about 12, super late this time, 12 15, to about, I don't know, what when when do they kick us off the uh air? 12 45. But then no, they really kick it at 1250. Stas' mic's not on?
+
+[0:51] Now she is. Oh no, it's all right, nice. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Fine.
+
+[0:58] Uh I see you've retired your Christmas hat, which I'm very sad about. Yeah. Nastasia has perhaps the greatest Christmas hat of all times. All times. Like it is like wearing a knit Christmas tree on her head.
+
+[1:12] It's pretty sick. You don't think it's hipster, do you? Uh, you know, if nothing you wear could possibly be hipster because, you know, then it would be like matter antimatter coming together, and you know, you would dissolve in a burst of energy and light, you know. Uh but this is quite a tall hat you got, and it's kind of line stars. The one she has right now or the Christmas hat.
+
+[1:35] I think the one now is potentially borderline. I know, but it's warm. It's got a pretty sick pom pom on top. It's like you've executed some sort of small fluffy animal and just directly put it on top of your hat. You know the thing about the pom pom is it doesn't actually add any warmth to your hat.
+
+[1:50] Yeah, I wonder what the history of it is. Oh, here's Stas coming down the street. I can tell by the Pom Pom. Maybe. Maybe.
+
+[1:58] Uh in the booth, we have uh who we got over there. We got Jack and White over there in the engineering booth. We're here. Hey, why do me a favor? Uh figure out who it was that wrote in about the Ty Basil, because uh I can't remember, so I want to give them a shout out for their awesome idea.
+
+[2:11] And joined in the studio with Heritage Radio's new intern for the next couple of months. What is it? Devlin? Declan. Declan.
+
+[2:18] Declan. Nice. Hey Declan, how are you doing? I'm pretty good. And tell you why don't you tell people where you're from?
+
+[2:22] I'm from uh Brooklyn, New York. I'm from Park Slope. Yeah, but what do you do? You're here as part of something with uh with your high school, right? Uh yeah, we um for the second semester of our senior year, we do an internship instead of like regular classes.
+
+[2:32] So I'm doing this. Yeah? Nice, nice. They didn't let me do that when I was in high school. No.
+
+[2:38] That that that when I was in high school, you know what you did? You stayed in school. Yeah. Although seniors were allowed to leave. I didn't have a car, so I didn't.
+
+[2:45] Because I wasn't that kid with a car, even though I did come from the land where, you know, everyone had outdies with dancing bears on the back. Uh you know, I was not one of those. I mean, I wish I was one of those kids. But anyway, so uh so how do you get into this intern thing? What do you uh a little bit of nepotism?
+
+[3:02] My sister works for Robertas, so she kind of got me the the gig here. So yeah. You're a senior in high school, right? Uh huh. Let me teach you something very freaking early in life.
+
+[3:10] Okay. Nepotism is like everyone's like, oh yeah, I want to do it all on my own. I don't want any help. That's crap. Take whatever help you can get from whoever you can get from wherever you can get it.
+
+[3:20] Every almost everyone that you've heard stories of, uh you know, like later in life were like, I started with nothing and I built it all myself without help. It's all lies and crap. Like if you look into what most people like do, they have some freaking help, you know? Yeah. So don't worry about the nepotism.
+
+[3:36] Do not be ashamed. Like, here's the thing. Like, once you get in a position of uh, I don't know, are you gonna be a wealth and power? Is that what you're gonna shooting for in life? Uh I don't know about that.
+
+[3:45] But whatever, let's say you were. Like, once you're there, then you can say, okay, maybe I shouldn't maybe I shouldn't dole out the nepotism to someone who is unworthy. Right. You know what I mean? Like that's the res that's the responsibility.
+
+[3:58] Once you have the crap to dole out, then you have a responsibility. When you don't have anything, you have no responsibility not to accept the generosity of others. Just saying. What do you think, Stas? I did it all myself.
+
+[4:11] I do it all myself. I started from nothing. A lowly Stanford grad. Uh Jack, what do you think? Uh I agree, and I also just want to add that I'm doing a little research here.
+
+[4:21] It seems like pom poms are pretty much pointless and decorative. In some cultures and religions, they denote like the rank, you know, by color. Uh so where's the black pom pom rank? Yeah, I don't know. She's she's been listening to the uh to the the city is mine.
+
+[4:38] She's like, uh not the city is mine, what's it? Oh, what's the one? All black everything. Oh my god, my brain is erased. My all my rap knowledge has been erased.
+
+[4:45] Anyways, uh, I have a question in from Matt in Chicago. Dear cooking issues folk, I have a bit of a challenge for you. I'm writing on behalf of my daughter. She's doing her fifth grade science fair and her project says about acids and bases. We have the acids down.
+
+[4:58] She's dissolving uh an eggshell, a whole egg, in one container of vinegar, and setting the egg whites in another. Can you recommend some cool food-based experiments she can do with bases? I thought about pretzels or alkaline noodles, but didn't think either would be interactive enough. Also, she can't really cook anything on site. Thoughts.
+
+[5:14] Uh Matt from Chicago. P. S. She's a big fan of the show. I wish my kids were big fans of the show.
+
+[5:20] Uh actually, I I I don't because like sometimes I'll mention stuff like Dax is already mad at me because I mentioned uh what was it? I mentioned something he did that. Oh, the burning eyes. Oh, my eyes! Yeah, yeah, what was that?
+
+[5:30] The whole the wasabi oil. Yeah. Nah, sad. Uh she's a big fan of the show and wants to come in, so call in some time. Unfortunately, she's in school when you guys are live.
+
+[5:38] Maybe I'll have her whole class in one Tuesday. LOL. Yeah, that'd be fun, actually. Where's the class? I wonder.
+
+[5:44] 866 708. Where's 708? We'll find out. Yeah. Um I've done school presentations with liquid nitrogen.
+
+[5:51] That stuff's fun. Like, I've done it to it's like Illinois. Ill and yeah, I'm not gonna mean where we have plenty of what, Illinois? Maybe we'll have something there. I don't know.
+
+[6:00] I'm gonna do so. Anyway, whatever. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about acids and bases. Now listen, you're doing eggs.
+
+[6:05] Hey Stas, I can hear you crinkling your mint like from a mile of freaking away. You guys hear that online? This is what Stas thinks about. Mints, mints, mints. I found it in my pocket.
+
+[6:15] Yeah, alright. All right. Well, we took a car ride. We were doing a uh demonstration with uh Mario Batali at his son's high school, in fact, where we demoed, among other things, liquid nitrogen and dragon's beer, two kind of fun demos to do in front of people. And the Limo driver, what was his name again?
+
+[6:30] Like Arturo or something like this. He had like a bunch of mints, so Stas is like, he didn't ask me whether my seat was comfortable. So she takes and scoops, scoops all of the mints into her pockets like Atomic Fireballs. Atomic fireballs and mints. She like looked, she like her pockets were like all chipmunked out with this dude's mints just because and the sad thing is, Jack, is that the dude did ask her how her seat was.
+
+[6:53] He totally did. Whatever. Okay. You are in luck, my friend. Or I should say your daughter is in luck, because if you want to stick this entire thing with eggs, a really fantastic uh base demo is um doing uh lie soaked eggs.
+
+[7:10] I hope you have a couple of days to do this. I believe that if cooking issues hasn't been entirely turned into one giant Cialis ad by now by the freaking hackers, right? Uh I believe I put the recipe up there because it's something we used to do with Harold McGee, where we would take eggs. Now, interestingly, one of the interesting things about it is that uh it works differently on quail eggs, uh chicken eggs, and and uh duck eggs. I've never tried a uh you know, a Rhea egg or an emu egg or an ostrich egg, but uh it works differently on the three normally available eggs that uh that I can get.
+
+[7:40] And uh I forget the exact percentages, but it's high. It's somewhere in the in the you have to get some food grade lye. Uh don't lick it. Uh and uh or don't let anyone near who doesn't know what's going on. And be careful when you're following the rules on um on lye because uh it's very exothermic, and so you just have to you know follow the rules mixing lye.
+
+[7:59] But it's something high, it's in a couple of percent lye. There's a lot of lye. And salt, a lot of salt, I think it's like five percent salt. And you soak the eggs in it for I forget, but it's like a week or something like this. And uh what happens is is then when you cook them, the the base has denatured the proteins to the extent that and you can, you know, cook them, you know, uh just with regular boiling water, even you could bring a pot of hot water and cook them up because it doesn't take a lot.
+
+[8:24] They've denatured the proteins to the extent that they will still set, but they are completely uh translucent. You can like look through them, and there's pictures on the on the blog of this. And you can eat them, they're funky, they taste a bit like Lutfisk, you know, uh, which is another good uh basic thing. Uh it's a s shame she can't cook uh on site because I think pretzels is actually a fantastic demo just doing the pretzels, because you can do the boil in um regular water and then the boil in basic water, and you can see the huge difference in um browning between them. And when you taste one and then the other, you get a very, very clear sense of what the basicity does to uh to the taste, right?
+
+[9:03] I mean, if you taste a pretzel that's been boiled in regular water, it's just like like a like a bagel in a pretzel shape. And if you do it uh the other way, it's well, it's pretzel. You know what I mean? So um I think it's interesting. But look into that egg thing.
+
+[9:15] You used to that that was a cool demo, right? People like that demo because it's weird because you can see through the egg, and you're already doing a lot of work with eggs here. So maybe it's uh, you know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh especially if you can't cook.
+
+[9:26] So most of the myard things are gonna be out like my art. I mean, the things with base that you have are right, you have the uh alkaline noodles, you can show the stuff turning yellow, you know, if you get the right stuff. That's interesting. You have uh acceleration of umard, uh, and you have you have also like uh increase uh in um uh pectin breakdowns, right? So you could do like a mushy test by adding base to something like beans, adding too much base to something like beans, and then uh shifting it acidic and showing how they're har cooking them side by side, but you can't really do cooking.
+
+[9:58] Um and then the other one is just um protein destruction, or if you don't want to do straight food, you could do saponification, you could make soap, you know. But again, that also is gonna take some cooking. Anyway, uh hopefully some of these things are of interest to you. But remember, when you're playing around with hardcore bases, especially lye, uh you're gonna want to be super duper careful. You know what my favorite acid thing with food is, even though it's not food related.
+
+[10:22] You ever you ever done sulfuric acid and sugar? Do they do that for you in science class? No. It's sweet. Like the sugar just gets completely uh turned to carbon, but it happens so quickly that it forms a column of uh carbon coming out of the yeah.
+
+[10:37] I've seen videos of that. That stuff is really, really cool. Sweet. Yeah, it's not food related in the sense that you can't eat it afterwards, but it does start with food. Starts with food.
+
+[10:47] Um speaking of uh speaking of fats and uh saponification, uh Brian from uh Mipples, that would be Minneapolis, Mipples, uh writes in Does anyone in Minneapolis like take umbrage at like people calling it mipples? I mean, I guess they wouldn't. I guess not. Mipples. Okay.
+
+[11:11] Uh proving that no good deed goes unpunished. I have a second question for you. You responded very thoughtfully to my question about chia seeds a few weeks ago. Stas. Give me your chia seed face.
+
+[11:21] Your your chia seed drink face. Yeah. Anyway, I want to solidify canola oil for disposal after using it for deep frying. Uh I'm a bad person. I do it in a Dutch oven on the stovetop, not a commercial fryer like Dave.
+
+[11:34] By the way, my commercial fryer at home right now is not fired up because my hood is currently not operating uh well enough to use my deep fryer. So I have been reduced to frying on the stove like a chump. But what that means is I'm frying uh I'm frying things that don't need um that are not going to abuse the oil too much and that don't need very stable uh temperatures to work. And it don't like so French fries, you don't want the stuff to get too low or you get too much oil oil absorption, right? Uh chicken, obviously you want to do a good job of frying.
+
+[12:04] But like the easiest things in the world to fry, potato chips and tortilla chips, because you want those suckers. Hey, you know, anyone that disagrees with me, feel free to write in. But those suckers are saturated with uh with oil. They're just saturated. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:19] And all you're really doing with like really what you're doing with that is you're using the oil as a dehydration technique to boil the liquids out of your stuff. So tortilla chips and potato chips, you can start from a cold pot of oil if you want, heat it up till it's boiling, let it boil until it suckers crisp, and then just not brown it. So at home, when I'm using a crappy fryer for uh, you know, crappy Dutch oven for that, like I well, I don't use a Dutch oven. I actually use a pasta pot with a colander in it so I can pull and drain. And, you know, I just heat it till it goes, mellow, turn it off in between batches, and it's good to go.
+
+[12:50] I mean, I ain't frying chicken like that though, because I mean I'm not that much of a chump. Anyway. Uh the only product that I can find that supposedly solidifies things like canola oil is a Japanese product called Kentomeda Tempuru. By the way, remember we were given a package of that uh after the show. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.
+
+[13:06] In a couple of weeks, hopefully I'll have a chance. I've been busy, but hopefully I have a chance to play with it and see what's going on. Um there's a post you can look to uh on Chopsticks NY. Uh I've only found one online seller and it's crazy expensive. $89 for 50 packets.
+
+[13:18] What is that per packet, Sus? Come on, man. Hey, you're in high school. Give me some math. 89.50, do it right now.
+
+[13:23] Do it, do it, do it. 20 20 grams each. Uh, and that was on uh Japan Goods Finder. You got it yet? 89 bucks, 50.
+
+[13:29] Come on. I do. Come on. Come on. All right.
+
+[13:31] Uh reports say that this powder is derived from seaweed. This makes me wonder can something like carry gene in solidify oil? I don't think so. Or is something else available from Modernist Pantry, modernistpatry.com. Um anyway, so then after this, he writes in, by the way, I answered my own question about the oil solidifiers when I found some at a local Asian grocery store.
+
+[13:48] It's hydroxysteric acid, almost certainly with some bulking agent not listed in the ingredient list. I've attached pictures on the front and back of the package, and it looks like you heat the oil to 80 C, then stir in this stuff, and then it thickens as it cools down to 40 C. Uh I used one 18 gram packet and about two quarts of oil, and it got very thick but not quite solid. I guess I need to use more. I still have two questions about it.
+
+[14:08] It's still Brian from Mipples asking questions about solidifying oil. Any idea about the proper oil to acid ratio to get solidified? No. I can't read uh Japanese and neither can I. Um, but I could find someone that reads Japanese.
+
+[14:21] I have plenty of people that can read Japanese. You know, I should take the package to them and see. I'll I'll do that. I'll I'll try to. You know what the thing is?
+
+[14:28] If I throw the if I throw it in my backpack, then I'll just have it there, and then when I meet, you know, one of my friends who speaks Japanese, I'll look at them and say, why do I need someone who speaks Japanese? Oh, Catameric Impuls, and then I'll get the stuff out anyway. Um then uh finally I found one chemical supplier that sells smallest quantities of hydroxysteric acid, TCI America, which sells 25 grams for 18 bucks. Uh the product I got was um uh was 180 grams for eight bucks, so it can't be pure hydroxysteric acid based on TCI's pricing. Well, there's this is where this is where I disagree with you, my friend.
+
+[15:00] Uh I looked on TCI's website a couple of points before we go on to the next thing. I looked at TCI's website, and while they do in fact sell 25 grams for 18, you got by the way, you got that 8950 thing? Come on, you're not even looking at I'm looking at you're not even doing the math anymore. I can't, man. Oh man.
+
+[15:16] Man. Putting all this pressure on you. Jeez. All right. So while they do in fact sell 25 grams for uh 18 US dollars, they sell five hundred grams for thirty-nine dollars.
+
+[15:27] It's a dollar seventy-eight. Yes, Doss. I know my head. Yeah, but resourcefulness. She didn't even bring her phone out for that.
+
+[15:35] She did. She did. She has hid it from me. She's so used to hiding the phone from you. Trying to make it look good.
+
+[15:39] Yeah. So now so anyway, so but you can buy 500 grams off the same website for only $39, proving to you one thing that you should know in advance. Any chemical site that will sell to you is going to rip you off major time just for repackaging it. They're selling uh an order of magnitude more. In fact, an order of magnitude times two of the product for a mere twice as much.
+
+[15:59] So uh you're just paying for the small quantities there. Another thing I might add, I did a little poking around uh on this uh stuff, which uh I'm not gonna attempt to say without looking at it. Hydroxysteric acid. Uh and the thickening power of it depends a lot on uh what salt it is, right? So remember it's a f it's a it's a it's a fatty, it's an acid, right?
+
+[16:24] And it's usually sold in a salt format. And the lithium salts of it, various lithium salts of it, are what uh is used to make lith grease, like you know, like very thick uh lithium grease. And so who knows whether or not like basically you're making lith grease in your in your house with this, in which case maybe this stuff would be a good lubricant. Don't know. Do I know?
+
+[16:45] I don't know. But I could try to look more into it uh if I remember, although odds are I won't because odds are I'll forget. Odds are I'll forget. But maybe one of you out there knows and you can tell me. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[16:56] Uh yeah, I had a quick question. Um, what would be your death row meal if you could only have one meal, either for you or well, hopefully for you, Sasha and Jack. What would be your last meal on earth and how would you cook it? All right. Uh well, I'll go I'll go a little bit first before I say, like, I don't know that I'd be hungry.
+
+[17:14] You know what I mean? I'd be so freaking anxious that I don't know that I'd be that I agree. That hungry. And here's another thing: like uh if I was in prison on death row, right? I've heard that they don't really like put the energy into it that you would want.
+
+[17:30] You'd be like, you know, you'd be like, all right, I mean, like, you you'd be tempted to bust out all the stuff that you never got to eat, right? Be like, uh, what I would like is I would like uh I would like an ordalon side by side with uh you know a bubble ink, which is like the rice bird, which is traditional, it's illegal to take them now, but like I want one fatted as it flies down uh and eats the newly planted rice crop in uh South Carolina on its way down to South America. And I would like a similar passerine migratory bird from China, uh, you know, the uh paddy swallows that they have over there. I would like them all at roughly at similar points in their migration, similarly fattened, so I can do a side-by-side comparison on my way out. Like that's what I would want.
+
+[18:09] You know who would end up doing the work for that would be me. You'd end up, oh man. Yeah. You know, strangely, I think I've said this on the air, but the bobble ink, but after uh 1919, I think was the migratory bird act where you're no longer allowed to shoot birds unless you're specifically allowed to shoot them, right? So they was protected, uh, and it's been protected for a long time, uh, obviously since 1919, but all you know, almost a hundred years.
+
+[18:32] But uh you know what kills them now? Like they get killed in by the bushel. You know, but you know by what? They're a ground nesting bird. They get killed by lawnmowers up in the northeast on golf courses.
+
+[18:41] Because the bird's like, what a great place for a nest. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe the question is not so much death real, but like if you had one meal, what would it, what would be your if you could only have one more meal, what would be that?
+
+[18:56] You know, maybe minus the death part. Minus the death. Yeah, well, mm, it would be a boring life afterwards with the no food. But I think I would still do some sort of crazy comparison of stuff I couldn't otherwise do. I wouldn't necessarily go for the comfort food because there's no comfort to be had.
+
+[19:09] You know, you're gonna have the round. You're gonna have you're gonna well, even if it's not, you're like, hey, boah, it's the last meal you're ever gonna have. Oh, whoa, I want to learn something, you know. And that was Francois Mitterrand's last meal, minus the bobble ink, and my because you know, he's such a freaking French chauvinist Mitterrand that he was like, uh I think it was Mitterrand. He's just like uh it wasn't de Gaulle, it was Mitterrand.
+
+[19:28] And he was, you know, he's like, uh, I only want the French one. Anyway, but uh so Stas, what would you have? Uh I think I would do caviar with sour cream pringles and champagne. Wow. You like you like your caviar on a Pringle?
+
+[19:41] Pound it out, Stas. Caviar on a freaking Pringle. I thought she'd be like Bleenies. No. And she's like, I want my caviar and Pringle.
+
+[19:49] By the way, you know how we're like uh we're discussing giving arms to Ukraine? This guy was this guy from the Ukraine. I loved it. He's instead of saying night vision goggles on the news yesterday, he's like, night night vision googles. Night vision googles.
+
+[20:00] I'm like, I want some night vision Google. That would be sick. That's a sick internet search. Night vision Google. Jack, what do you got?
+
+[20:06] Mine's weird, but it would be like the best, best, best bread and butter. Yeah. And that'd be it. Bread and butter is some delicious. We got Peter Kim and Peter, what would your last meal be?
+
+[20:15] I'll give you about 13 seconds to think about it because I'm learning. Fried chicken. What kind of fried chicken, dude? That's like saying I would like to have, I don't know, food. Like what kind of fried chicken?
+
+[20:25] Like what style? Do you equate fried chicken with food? I'm saying there's a wide range of fried chickens, my man. So what style of fried chicken? Or would you like a panoply of styles of fried chicken?
+
+[20:34] Look at me. What kind of you think? Oh. By the way, those of you that might not know, uh, Kim isn't like Kim is is a Korean name. Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink says he wants Korean fried chicken.
+
+[20:46] But since he's pulling the race card on me, I'm gonna make you say it with the accent. Could he and put I couldn't do it? There you go. Nice. Nice.
+
+[20:58] Nice. Not really nice, but there you have it. Anyway, uh, caller, I hope that answered your question. Yeah, I'm just glad to hear like Natasha actually would like something, and she gave such a good answer with Pringles and Caviar. That's just awful.
+
+[21:10] Yeah, well, that's classic Nastasia, high and low for you. Like that's classic Stas. Uh, I did not even know that she I actually did know you were a fan of the Pringles because they're basically a potato paste. It's a weird product, the Pringle. But she has a big she has that weird, like, like smile plus revolt.
+
+[21:25] You know when kids like like get themselves into something they know they shouldn't do, but they love it. That's the look Stas has on her face when she talks about Pringles. It's good stuff. I would have expected Nastasia to do something more like, you know, a baked potato bar or like twice as baked potato. Have you ever seen her eat a potato?
+
+[21:40] Have you ever seen her eat a baked potato? Yes. Really? Yeah. Where?
+
+[21:44] We had baked potatoes that one time when we went to uh where was it for the Pats game? Uh oh, yeah. I like a baked potato. Remember in the well, you don't. But in the 70s, man, baked potatoes were like boom, baked potatoes everywhere.
+
+[21:57] Baked potatoes, delicious. Hey, so let's take that quick break now. Oh, quick break. Coming back with some more cooking issues. Hey, what's up, guys?
+
+[22:15] It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff.
+
+[22:56] There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place. Molecular recipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code HERITIAG at checkout.
+
+[23:19] That's promo code Heritage. So again, check them out. Molecular Recipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley.
+
+[23:30] And remember to tell them that you love them and that we sent you there, but that you hate the name because you should never call cooking molecular. Am I right? And you know, listen, we've had this conversation before, so I'm not going to belabor the point or beat a horse that's already dead. By the way, do we have that discussion about beating a dead horse? Really interesting.
+
+[23:47] We did interesting idea. You're trying to get more work out of the horse. Anyway. Um beating a dead horse. Uh so anyway, you can still, I still hate it.
+
+[23:56] Everyone knows I hate the word molecular, and I'm allowed to say I hate it, even though they're a sponsor. Anyway, Tyler writes in about high pressure cooking. Dear Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe. Wow, this is like pulling them all out. Eddie, Carlos, and Indy Jesus.
+
+[24:08] You're missing some Wyatt, and you're also missing uh you're also missing uh Satan's little helper. Our hipster uh hip hipster, hipster, hipster elf. That name really just keeps going south every time. Yeah, yeah. He's crazy.
+
+[24:21] But is he is anyway. He changed his look after Christmas, I noticed. He's not quite so elfin anymore. Uh I've recently become interested in high pressure cooking, i.e. above the standard 15 PSI of a pressure cooker.
+
+[24:32] And the MIARD and Caramelization reactions that occur therein. I thought it would be interesting to see which compounds are created and if it would lead to a super flavorful product. I remember your post on the uh blog about Myard pipe potatoes and was hoping you could expand on what you thought about this process. You seem to come to the conclusion that no matter what the treatment or substrate used, the product was disgusting. My question is do you think that this process by high pressure um produces uniquely different compounds of the two Browning reactions due to the presence of water, or do you think that the acrid smells based purely on the concentration of these compounds?
+
+[25:06] Also, I've been looking for information on this process in the literature and unable to find anything good. Can you recommend some articles and or books on the subject of high pressure cooking? Love the show, keep up the good work. Thanks, Tyler, uh from UC Davis, uh classic 2016. Um I don't have any scholarly articles on it.
+
+[25:21] Um, you know, uh from what I do know is that, you know, my art in particular is extremely complicated, and that the uh, you know, the the end products of uh the myard reactions are like you know, a shotgun spray of different um different things, and that uh the the flavor and aroma of them is wildly dependent on uh the temperature, the pressure, uh the can you know the the precursors that are there, uh, and probably also you know what the moisture level is. So basically everything that can that can be a factor is, and that some of the uh things are delicious, like bready and brown and delicious, and some of them are just awful crap. And I don't think that it's merely a uh concentration. I think it's probably um different compounds being produced under different um conditions, but I don't have any scholarly articles to back that up. What I did was I took a pipe and I s I put uh liquid and food, and I did some with without extra liquid, just using their own moisture, and I did potatoes, I did uh a variety of meats, I did some other veg.
+
+[26:30] I think I might have done beans or something like this, and I sealed them in a uh in a pipe and then I threw the pipe into uh into a deep fryer. Don't do this. Please don't do this. Uh, you know, uh especially uh Matt from Chicago's daughter, please don't do this. And um and so the deep fryer is a way for me to stably get the temperature up without overheating it, right?
+
+[26:51] Because if I if I was trying to control the pressure some other way, there's a there's a very you know strict relationship between the internal pressure and the temperature on the outside, assuming that it's sealed. So by throwing it in the deep fryer I could get a very constant um uh temperature and pressure on the inside. So I was pulling like 150 psi uh or thereabouts at like 300 and change degrees uh Fahrenheit and then pull it out and the potatoes were completely brown all the way through and were the most putrid potatoes I've ever put in my mouth. Ditto with the meats putrid, putrid, putrid. And someone said, well, maybe it's the maybe you're getting some metals off the pipe.
+
+[27:25] So I I tried stainless, I tried copper, I tried aluminum, all putrid. Uh I was never able to get any uh kind of good thing that didn't taste incredibly uh awful out of it. Um the only time I've done kind of ultra high pressure cooking, uh so then another like another pressure thing. I've cooked in regular pressure cookers up to about 30 PSI by modifying them. Don't do this, please don't do this.
+
+[27:51] Uh and then testing um, you know, the the like stock. And uh it turns out that 15 PSI tasted better than like 25 PSI did for stock. So there's definitely uh a shift in the flavor of what's going on as the pressure increases or decreases, and we noticed kind of a uh you know, a spike in the hedonic uh curve um for at least stock around 15 psi or thereabouts and you know worse below and and and not as good above either. Um now that said I have cooked some things at higher pressure. You I did a thing called desk nachos for um uh first week feast and I very unsafely raised the uh pressure inside you did I did that with a sears all or regular torch?
+
+[28:37] I think I might have but I might have regular torch whatever anyway. I think I might use a regular torch on it. I I took an EC and then shoved a thermometer into it to test to make sure I wasn't getting it too hot, and I did uh beans in there, and I think I was probably pulling something close to 3540 PSI or higher in it, and they tasted good. The beans tasted good. Anyways.
+
+[28:56] So it's possible to do things at higher pressure, but uh you know I didn't do that in a controlled way, and I would never recommend somebody do what I did for those desk nachos. And the guy next to me, I think wanted to kill us because of like the danger involved. But uh it's not gonna blow. Like they look those EC things are constructed so well. Definitely don't do it with an off market uh whipper.
+
+[29:16] Anyways, go check it out. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex writes in about Wondra. Hello, Nastasia, Jack, and Dave. You know, let's take this caller real quick.
+
+[29:24] Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, actually, this is Alex who wrote in about Wundra. It's totally different question. All right, what's up? Um first off, thank you so much for the show.
+
+[29:34] I enjoyed immensely. Oh, thank you. Uh secondly, uh, I get to go to New York for the first time in my life at the end of the month. And everybody that I asked about what to do in New York, where to go in New York, what the you know, not necessarily the greatest hits album, but like the good mixed date compilation. Um they don't really get like food and drink and stuff like that.
+
+[29:54] So besides Booker and DAX, I don't want to end up at CGI Fridays in Times Square because my mother-in-law likes it a lot. Um where again, not the greatest hits, but what's a good, well-rounded, like things I don't want to miss while I'm there, or that just kind of you should get pizza, you should get a bagel, you should get what? Right. Okay. So where where so where are you from?
+
+[30:16] Uh Santa Barbara. Okay. And is your mother-in-law coming with you? Not at all. Okay.
+
+[30:21] Uh okay, well, you're you're in luck that we have Peter Kim here today because uh Peter Kim, as you might know, is the um director, so what is associate? What is it, program, the president, head of the Museum of Food and Drink Emperor? Galactic Emperor. Uh, and he's been actually spending a lot of time. So the thing is like, what do you want to do?
+
+[30:40] So, you know, Peter could make up and has made up uh lists of you know really interesting trips into, for instance, Queens to do some of like the kind of hardcore ethnic enclaves that we have here that's super interesting. And you know, he could run down uh uh uh you know a list of that stuff, but if you know, or you could try kind of higher higher end New York centric kind of um things for bagels. I mean, look, if you if I were to tell you one bagel place, then like all the other bagel people would shoot me in the face for picking that bagel place. Well, I happen to like it's down in my neighborhood. They just changed hands recently, and their style I noticed changed a little bit the last time I was there, was uh Kosars.
+
+[31:23] The Kosars is right near me. I like Kosars a lot, and right near Kosars actually are like the pickle guys. You can get the real kind of lower east side uh feeling, but hands down, like without like without any sort of go to Russ and Daughters and and get their um try the northern Norwegian because they let me tell you something. Like if you go out and you get um smoked cured salmon, right? So Nova Lox or it's you know it's equivalent, and you get it pre-packed and you've never had someone hand slice like a super high quality uh version of it, then you haven't you haven't had it.
+
+[31:58] You know what I mean? Uh and they're it's expensive, but by far and away, Russ and Daughters has the best sliced salmon I've ever had in my life, and they they slice it for you. In particular, I would try their uh if they have the Baltic, I would get the Baltic, but it's very rare to have it there. The Norwegian King is delicious. They're all delicious.
+
+[32:16] They'll give you a little taste of each one. Uh and their cream cheese, their plain cream cheese is an unstabilized cream cheese. It's a little bit grainy, but I find it doesn't keep, so you're not going to take it home with you, but it's just I think incomparably delicious to any other cream cheese I've had. Uh I don't know who makes their bagels, they're okay. And they also have the older Union style bagels.
+
+[32:36] Um but Kosar's bagels are good. With a bagel, you want to know, like, am I going for like do you like a doughier like Essa style that's kind of puffier and doughier? Do you like like a harder style or like you know, like a thinner, like a like an H style? Uh I used to like I used to live up near Columbia, you know, uptown, and they had both styles in kind of um, you know, they had an absolute up there and they had uh Columbia bagels, which were kind of like diametrically opposed styles because you know the guys up at Absolute were were from Essa. Um they you know they had apprenticed it all at Essa.
+
+[33:10] But you should have an S who else does the good bagels now, like Peter, who else is known for bagels? But like Essa style is a style of bagel. But yeah. There's that trendy spot in the Lower East Side. What's it called?
+
+[33:19] Black seed or something like that. I haven't been. Is it good? I don't I've heard it. I mean it's it's popular.
+
+[33:23] Anyway, but you know what? If you want tr traditional Russian daughter, we're gonna should go to Russ and Daughters. Uh if you want like an old place old school Italian store uh with super high quality stuff, go to DePalo's on Grand. It's also but you know, budget time at either of these places, unless you go off, you know, off time, like go in the mid-afternoon when there's not a lot of people, otherwise, you're gonna be there for like forever in a day. Um, you know, then if you want to see I mean the problem is there's like so many like places have cropped up, but when I was a kid, like I used to love going to Dean and DeLuca's because you couldn't you just couldn't see it anywhere else, but now you can get this kind of market kind of more often in other places, you know, uh, or like uptowns, you know, Zaybars used to be a Mecca for you know in the in the eighties for people going, but I you know I haven't been in in many years.
+
+[34:06] What what but then Italy would be good on a quick trip, right? I can't stand the crowds. I'm sure it's like the crowds make me wanna make me want to stab myself uh like repeatedly. Um Dave just generally wants to stab himself repeatedly, so that doesn't mean much. Yeah, and then you know, in the bars, like a bar crawl here, like you can do an intense bar crawl, and I'm like I'm not gonna mention any because then I'll insult the rest.
+
+[34:29] But uh, you know, uh, you know, but you know, there's like so many uh famous bars, all actually like you can even just stay in the neighborhood of Booker Dicks. Uh McSorley's that's oh McSorle's you can go to go to McSorley's, go to McSorley's uh before the frat douches show up. So go like am I allowed to say that? Yeah, you're not gonna be able to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:51] Uh but I mean that's not too offensive, right? It's not offensive. All right. Uh, you know, we have kids that listen to the show occasionally. That's right.
+
+[34:57] Uh so I apologize. Uh maybe we can bleep that on the thing going out. But anyway, so but my point is is that uh you want to go there early, and uh they have the greatest urinals ever. Like, so I detest public restrooms, I hate them uh with a passion, but they're uh they're actually okay. But you get the get the cheese plate, which is basic basically a sleeve of saltines, onions, the world's spiciest mustard.
+
+[35:20] Don't overdo it. I've actually burnt my tongue on their mustard by over consuming and what's it, raw onions, cheddar, or their liverwurst sandwich, well known. And like two pints, uh it used to be two pints like two bucks or two fifty back when I was in college, but it's probably like three fifty now, and they're not real pints, uh, they're short pints. Uh but you see, I remember once I went in there in the in the early nineties, or maybe like nineteen ninety, right after I turned twenty-one, so uh ninety-two, maybe. Anyway, and I said uh I was like, what do you I was like, what kind of beer do you have?
+
+[35:48] And he goes, We have mixorleys and more McSorleys because that's all they have. Dark and light. Yeah, dark and light. And they served all through prohibition and no one else no one no one messed with them. So that's old school New York.
+
+[36:01] Um what else, Peter? What do you got? I mean, in general, as as Dave said, uh I I think my favorite way to eat in the city is really visiting uh the ethnic enclaves. And if there's one train line you had to pick, I'd say the seven train out to Queens. It's pretty amazing what you can find on there.
+
+[36:15] You can pretty much get off anywhere and you can have you can find everything from uh you know, Thailand, uh, you know, uh food from Thai food, uh Nepali of you know, mainland China, uh, you know, re the like I think the best Korean stuff is also out in flushing. You can find incredible Colombian, Peruvian, uh Venezuelan, it's all on this train and it's it's kind of amazing. And you know, if you look up you can reach out to me actually if you want, but also um uh you know, if you look online, the you know, there are a lot of people who've put together great, you know, like tasting guys. It's got a few good. Yeah, Citzema's a good guy to look at um if you're interested in that.
+
+[36:50] Um but that's just one slice of it. And I mean, I think that's one of the most incredible things about this city is that you can go and get off a train somewhere and it's just like you know, you're in another country, like you walk into markets and you don't recognize any of the products, you're going into these places, people don't necessarily speak English. And uh yeah, and and then you know it's sort of a hybrid cuisine that's been created in New York City. Right. And if you want to break the bank, you know, uh go go like pick one, like uh pick one of the super high ends to go to because they're they're fun to do, like kind of you know, once like I don't know, go to it depends on what style you want.
+
+[37:23] Like, you know, you can go to uh you know Mark's place, you know, Del Posto if you want the high end Italian or you know, JG is a great place to go, and then you have like you know, all the awesome oh you go to Contra, which is a really interesting place. That's fad fabulous, like uh and Jeremiah, like who I used to work with, that's their place. Or like, you know, uh Stupak's uh Empeon Casino, Wiley's has Alder, which you can't go to WD anymore, but you can go uh there. Those are all in kind of a concentrated uh neighborhood uh as well. But there's there's a bajillion good places to go.
+
+[37:54] Um there's also Olive Garden. Oh yeah. Those breadsticks and salad. Did you know that those breadsticks are unlimited? Yes.
+
+[38:02] Without limit. I know. That's why you have to go. But I have one of those here. It's not the same.
+
+[38:09] It's not the same. Like an Olive Garden uh in Times Square is incomparable. It's like the the Chevy's freshmex is so much more Chevy in in Times Square. Everything is I'm kidding. Don't ever eat Times.
+
+[38:21] Don't ever, don't ever, don't ever go. It's not don't ever go. I'm not saying that, but uh you know, remember the the freak economics book basically saying it's impossible to get good food in those kind of locations because it's not possible. It's not doesn't it doesn't make economic sense for them to make good food in those in those locations. Um I'll tell you something that's not so good is and I'm embarrassed to f say it, is that the standard New York City street pretzel is useless.
+
+[38:45] Yeah, horrible. Yeah, I agree. Like the idea of it is fantastic, and they can be delicious, but they're always just a horrifying mess. Oh, oh, I have to just put this in there because this is probably for me one of my favorite ways to eat in New York is going to Coney Island if you're coming in the summer and getting Nathan's dog and sitting on the beach and eating it. I'll tell you what, Coney Island is awesome in the crazy winter too, because there's no one there but the dude who has no teeth and the one dude dragging his limbs, you know what I mean?
+
+[39:09] Yeah. But yeah, that's true. But I mean, I think it's I think Coney Island is is one of my favorite destinations in New York City. And you can hit some of the cool Russian neighborhoods outside of that where you can you, you know, there's Uzbek Korean food? For real?
+
+[39:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there were uh Koreans that were forcibly moved into Uzbekistan by Stalin, and I guess there they they fused uh Korean cuisine with Uzbeki cuisine. And so there's a restaurant called uh at your mother-in-law's in uh it's uh and it's at uh in Brighton Beach, so near Coney Island. Yeah, you know that it's there's an Italian slang word that translates to your mother-in-law's pillow that's the chestnut sold in the case with the spikes. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:47] Anyway, uh all right, they're gonna kick us off of here. Yeah, we have one more caller. Do you want to try to squeeze it in? It's up to you, brother. I mean Yeah, we can do it.
+
+[39:54] All right, caller. All right, cool. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's Andy from Chicago. How's it going?
+
+[40:00] Hey, alright, what's up? Uh not too much. Uh one quick thing. M Wells at the PS1 in uh Long Island City is a great spot for New York dining. Real rich, heavy, good place for lunch or brunch, something like that.
+
+[40:12] Nice. Good call. Yeah. Yeah. Um anyway, I'm renovating my kitchen.
+
+[40:16] I was thinking I was thinking about going with a foot pedal faucet, but I've started to see those sort of electronic touch ones. No, no, no. You know, where you just kind of bump them. What what are your thoughts? How hard is it to retrofit?
+
+[40:25] Do I need to plan for a foot pedal ahead of time? I would I would plan temperature control on both. I would plan. There's a couple different ways you can go with foot pedals. I've never gone with uh a full temperature control.
+
+[40:37] I've just gone with a dual pedal situation. There are ones where you can set like a mixing valve and then use a single pedal to press the the mix out, and that's probably what I would do in a bathroom. If I was going to put uh which by the way I am, gonna put uh foot pedals in uh the next bathroom that I do, I'll probably just have a central mix and not even have uh the ability to turn it on with your hands because there's no reason to leave a bathroom faucet running. There's just no freaking reason to leave a bathroom faucet running. Unlike a kitchen where you might want to leave it running for like a pot or a pan or something like this.
+
+[41:09] Um but in a kitchen, typically what you're gonna want to do, uh I would stay away from the electronics. It's just something that can fail, and it's like, you know, you don't want to you ever been at an airport and you put your hand under a thing and you're like, go, go, go, go. You know what I'm saying? I hate that more than anything. I'm like, I just want water now, and then like you know how you pull your hand out, and as soon as you pull your hand out, the freaking thing comes on?
+
+[41:31] How many times has this happened to you? Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. I hate it.
+
+[41:35] But I I mean, I'm not talking like uh a sensor one. There's one that kind of works like the old touch lamps where you literally just tap the faucet with your forearm or wrist or something that's not contaminated and turns on. No touch, no touch. Here's what you're gonna do. So what you want to do, are you gonna go deck mounted or wall mounted on the faucet?
+
+[41:52] Uh probably deck mounted. Deck mounted, okay. If you don't mind stuff that looks a little bit commercial and I don't, is uh go I mean TNS brass makes some nice stuff and I I use I use almost exclusively TNS brass when I buy just because I'm used to using it for a long time. Um and you want a you you they sell some uh faucets and you can look around. You can buy things that are individual.
+
+[42:15] The key thing is that you need to have separate control over you need to have uh a T that goes into the central uh the spout, right? So the main problem with uh with uh retrofitting a uh foot pedal onto a faucet is that um is that in general it goes directly from the two uh hand valves right into the main spout. But um there there are some that don't. There are some that are just sold separately, right? So you buy the spout and then you buy the mixing valve separately, and in those situations, it's very simple to put a T and then with check valves, because you don't want any back, you know, flushing of stuff, you put the foot pedals on.
+
+[42:52] Super simple. And that's what I did in my last uh place. I had a faucet and a spout separately, and I just mounted the stuff all all separately. The other alternative is is that um some systems that have sprayers attached to them, you can disassemble the sprayer before the little flap valve that uh sh well actually, can you? Well, the one I have it you can run the both the faucet and the sprayer at the same time, so you don't have to worry about uh whether or not it shuts off the stuff.
+
+[43:19] And for that one, you just throw a T in between and put the you know put the input uh the output of the uh of the foot pedals directly to it with speedy, you know, with with uh steel, you know, stainless steel braided flex lines and and check valves and you're good to go. And so it's it's all dependent upon buying the right stuff. But if you go through TNS brass, everything's modular with TNS brass. And I don't know whether it's still the case, but KTOM, which is uh somewhere in the south, I think out of Florida, usually has pretty good rates on TNS brass, and they'll get even if they don't carry it, they'll get it for you. It's a pain because you got to call them and get the right part numbers for it.
+
+[43:52] Uh and but I used to buy all my TNS brass off at eBay because people were doing renovations and then they had extra faucets and then they're free. You know that free, but you know, almost free. Yeah. Cool. All right, I'll check it all out.
+
+[44:05] Appreciate the advice. All right, thank you. All right, listen. I got a c a lot of questions I didn't get to. Jack, maybe we're gonna have to do another uh catch up, right?
+
+[44:12] Yeah. Uh like Max from Sweden who wants to know about building his outdoor barbecue, but there's gonna be a lot more on that as I build my own in the coming season. And then the one thing I will do on the way out, because uh it's time sensitive very quickly, is um uh where are you? Ryan writes in uh hey, I managed to score a sweet deal on a 10 kilogram leg of pork yesterday, bone in, skin on, 20 bucks, and then realize I have no idea what to do with it. I'm assuming a brine of some sort is in order, followed by a trip to the oven or barbecue, but again, no idea.
+
+[44:39] I'd appreciate any tips or advice you can throw my way. Listen, don't bother with anything complicated if you don't have a lot of time. Like I I cook one of those in like in like 13 freaking like well, not 13 seconds, but you just take off the take off the skin, chop it up, throw like hack the meat up into you know relatively small pieces, break the bone at the knuckle pump, throw it in, pressure cook that sucker, make a pork chili, pull it out. You can pull out the skins afterwards because they're all gelatinous, chop them up real fine, chop up the meat real fine, and make a pork chili. Pork chili.
+
+[45:07] What do you think? Pork chili? Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:09] Pork chili. Owe us your favorite bands, too. Uh, next time, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:32] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit to donate and become a
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for molecular gastronomy recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hi, this is Celia Cutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:01] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live. What is that? What is that? I like it though. What is that?
+
+[1:07] Uh cheese. Cheese, cheese. Oh yay! Cheese. Cheese.
+
+[1:20] That's a nice cheese theme. It's a good cheese song, right? Yeah, is that is that yours? Who's is that? No, it's uh this uh we do cutting the curd, and every once a month we do a book review with Diane Stempel, and that's her theme song that her friend made for her.
+
+[1:32] Yeah, let's hear a little bit more cheese. Yeah, that was it, but we can we can start it from the beginning. Yeah, let's go from the beginning. Cheese. Cheese cheese.
+
+[1:48] Cheese. That's very like that's very like early 80s, like you know talking heads. It was well, it's but like that early 80s, like the ch the cheese is like never like on the same beat. It's never on the one, it's never, you know, it's just cheese. It's cheese.
+
+[2:04] You know what I mean? Cheese. Cheese. Call your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128 coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizzeria in Brushwick, Brooklyn, right?
+
+[2:16] Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasi the Hammer Lopez and in the engineering booth with Jack Insley and White. How you guys doing? We are good. Yeah, and we got we got a special guest uh in the uh in the radio uh in the radio studio today. Introduce you Oh, getting a little buzz there on the on the phones, Jack.
+
+[2:32] Uh why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what you do? Sure, I'm uh Corey from uh Little Bird Chocolates, and uh we make fire bites, which are chocolate covered candied jalapenos. Nice. And they're a supporter of the museum. They gave uh they were had their stuff in the gift bag at our uh what's it called?
+
+[2:50] What's that thing called? Puffing gun. No, no, no. It wasn't puffing gun. It was the uh it was our main event.
+
+[2:55] It's the main benefit that we do every year. That thing's coming up when, in May? I don't know. Not planned. What is it?
+
+[2:59] May? I don't know. I really don't know. I think it's in May. I'm not sure though.
+
+[3:01] Uh you'll be hearing about it. Peter, Peter Kim. I think he's coming today. Yeah, well, Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink will uh will uh come on and uh we'll talk about that. So why don't you explain uh explain what you got here?
+
+[3:12] Sure. So uh we have our most popular treat is a dark chocolate covered fire bite, uh candied jalapeno covered in dark chocolate with just a touch of sea salt. We do them in dark chocolate, milk chocolate, white chocolate, and then we have uh fire bark where we take the jalapenos, we grind them down, add it to the chocolate and put touch of sea salt. So it's just a little consistency different, and uh the heat hits you differently on that one. Yeah, well let's go dark.
+
+[3:38] I mean it's just break up in the dark. Try it. Right sauce. And does the milk soften it a little bit or no? Within the milk or no?
+
+[3:44] You would think, but uh it it actually I think the most popular or or the the spiciest is actually the white chocolate, which is sort of counterintuitive. You'd think it's just sweet, and the cocoa butter sort of coats your tongue and doesn't let the heat go. Write that, doesn't let the heat go. Write that down. That's uh is that an album or a song?
+
+[4:05] Uh doesn't let the heat go? Yeah. Sounds like more of a song. Well, the the last band name the Stars and I had that we were gonna it's kicking in now. The last band name the Stars and I were gonna do was um was uh Secretly Awesome.
+
+[4:17] Remember that? What was the album we're gonna have on that? I don't know. Oh um Mother's Second What? It was like Mother's Second Family or something.
+
+[4:26] Second family. Second Family Second Family Second Family by Secretly Awesome. That was our yeah, yeah. That you know what was the band what was the song we just came up with though? Don't remember.
+
+[4:36] We just had a song name, like three minutes ago. Oh my god, some someday we'll write this down because I got a song name. What do you got? Caller on line one. Oh, all right.
+
+[4:42] Let me let me uh try some white chocolate while I listen to the question from caller one. Caller caller, you're on the air. Hey, how are you guys doing? It's Anne Clong from Bogler Tone, Florida. How you doing?
+
+[4:51] How's how's the weather down there in Florida? It's actually better than what you guys have right now. Well, it wouldn't be hard. Yeah, but at least we're not in Boston, huh? Boom, boom, Boston.
+
+[5:00] Take that. Like eight, what are they like 18 feet of snow or some crazy thing over there? It's crazy. All right. So what do you got for us?
+
+[5:05] This is a few times where where bulk is actually nice. We're enjoying it. Nice, nice. Well, so what do you got for us? Yeah, I have two questions.
+
+[5:13] My first one's a little simpler. Uh I'm doing uh essential oils inside of water. I wanted to make like a citrus water. The only problem is that uh the oils always separate, and so I was gonna use either polysorbate to help find a way to emulsify it, but I have to be water. Uh or uh I was going to perhaps freeze it and then have the oil separate at the top.
+
+[5:38] I just want to know if you had any recommendations for that one. So what what's wait what's what's the final application? What what's going on? Uh I just want to make um carbonated uh citrus water essentially. Oh yeah.
+
+[5:51] Uh with with essential oils, but uh but the um essential oil always rises to the top and separates. Yeah, so what you need is gum arabic. Uh arabic. Yeah. It doesn't have to be shelf stable, right?
+
+[6:05] Just has to be stable for a little bit of time. Um you know, a few days or so. Hmm. Okay. So gum arabic is what people typically use um for this.
+
+[6:16] I mean, when you're doing citrus oils, uh everyone used to use what's called uh uh brominated vegetable oil. And what it is is it's uh it's an it's an oil that you mix with the uh with the um no one you people don't use it anymore, but it's it's you mix it with the citrus oils and it averages the density out because the brominated oil is heavier than water and the citrus oil is lighter than water, and when you add them together they try to get the density relatively similar to the finished beverage in this way when uh when you add like the their um emulsifier, and the reason they use arabic is because um a it it it you know is a decent emulsifier. It also doesn't increase the viscosity very much and it also dilutes quite well, which means that it doesn't mess up uh carbonated beverages. Um so, you know, you you would use like an Arabic and a brominated vegetable oil. They have a um they have a replacement now for brominated vegetable oil because uh I I don't know whether it's actually bad for you or there's theoretically bad for you.
+
+[7:14] I don't know. I don't know. Um but uh by the way, I've just like rounded into a nice like mellow like constant heat in the back of my mouth uh due to the jalapeno. Anyway, so um so you could try an Arabic, like uh, you know, there m the problem with the stuff that I use typically for emulsifying is it has like a bodying agent in it, like Xanthan, and that's gonna be a nightmare when you carbonate. Complete nightmare.
+
+[7:36] So you could try Arabic. Um I had just recently looked up um what to use in place of uh brominated vegetable oil, but I forget I forget what it what it was. Uh but you know, Arabic by itself should be able to keep it for at least um a little while, and then you might have to shake it back together. Uh, but you might want to might want to give that a give that a shot. Well what what did you use?
+
+[8:01] What about the application of polysorbate? Uh put like the regular like like put like 80 or 60. I don't really know like um I've never really used that stuff in uh in a in a beverage application. I don't know. Like what what like what what would be the uh why would you use that instead of like an Arabic or something?
+
+[8:21] I don't know. That's that's just initially what I was thinking. I just wanted to emulsify it, didn't want to have any taste. Right. Yeah, well remember, like, you know, you want to get like a you know a fairly you know, a nice clean Arabic, not like you know, the ones in rocks, get the powdered stuff that's meant for food grade.
+
+[8:37] That stuff is is good. But did you did someone else like uh somewhere publish a recipe using uh one of the uh polysorbates like 60 or 80 in this kind of an application? Because I I wouldn't like jump at something like that right away for this app. No, I I uh I was just doing my own research, and that was something that I kind of fell on to. Yeah, I would check out Arab.
+
+[8:58] Like Arabic is the classic like soda system. It's like really clean uh in terms of uh people that don't have bad feelings about it except for you know the possibility that if you're sourcing it improperly you're supporting terror, but you know, uh as an actual product they don't have bad feelings about it. And I think uh I think the whole I think the terror Arabic might be over. Like I think the gum acacia, like, you know, uh sourced from murderers might be a thing of like more like ten years ago as opposed to now. Although I'm saying that and I don't know.
+
+[9:27] But my feeling is that I haven't had anyone call me a uh supporter of murder recently for using gum arabic. Uh but you know it probably merits more more research. Uh but I I would look at that first and see what's happening, and then I would look up uh on the internet uh brominated vegetable oil or B VOs. I would look up B V O replacements, and uh all the big folks like Pepsi and Coke and those guys are shifting away from using um BVOs in and classically they would be found in things like in cloudy carbonated drinks, so Sunkist or uh Mountain Dew, uh, you know, which is kind of you know, when Moses came down, one of the things that you know he brought was Mountain Dew. That stuff is you know.
+
+[10:14] We've had actually a lot of Mountain Dew questions on this on the air. Like Mountain Dew, do you like Mountain Dew, Jack? Sorry, late to the mic here. You know, I did when I was like in junior high, maybe. Junior high.
+
+[10:26] Yeah, like you were a caffeine pushing early, my friend. Early, yeah. Uh I don't think I've had a Mountain Dew in probably over a decade. I'm pretty sure that I would not have made it through college without Diet Mountain Dew. I d case after case.
+
+[10:39] Every spring I used to drive from uh Connecticut to um to Sarasota, like, and I wouldn't stop. So that's about twenty-four hours, you know, uh, with 20 year old driving. It's about twenty twenty-four hours. And uh it was just uh like uh you know, a bunch of boxes of pretzels, cases of diet dew and easy cheese, and that's what got you down, and you and like you leveled yourself out. S strangely, prunes also in the car.
+
+[11:04] Now you'd think that this would be a mistake. You'd think this would be a mistake, but with the sitting, with the sitting and all of the the pretzels and easy cheese, you're so clogged up to even feel regular, the prunes actually help level you out. It's kind of like you know, a multi-system. So that would be the thing. We would just load the back of the car up uh with the diet cases of diet dew, and that was it.
+
+[11:24] Just go. Go. You know what I mean? Good times. Good times.
+
+[11:29] Um what was your second question? But I gotta hurry because I got a billion questions from last week that they're gonna kill me if I don't get to. Sure. No problem. Uh so I I have a friend that's really into the whole bone broth right now.
+
+[11:39] I'm not really into it at all. The whole what? She wants the bone broth? Oh, I mean, okay. Go ahead.
+
+[11:48] Um, and she just wants to make like a beef one, and I'm I'm kind of bored with it, but what I wanted to do was add a froth to it so I could make it somewhat like a cappuccino. She has them in the morning. So the only stipulation is that it has to be beef gelatin, and and then I don't know what percentages of gelatin fat and liquid to put in there to make a sort of broth with a cappuccino on that. Wait, so a cappuccino textured froth. Yes.
+
+[12:19] Right. With like an emulsified cloudy broth situation. Yes. Huh. So well, let me think here.
+
+[12:27] So how would I do that? Uh huh. Like you know, I was thinking of perhaps making the broth independently and then getting an ISI and filling it with some percentage of fat, gelatin, and then maybe some of the stock and then putting that froth on there. Yeah, I mean, that'll definitely definitely work. Or you could, you know, you could make a fluid gel out of the stock, uh, like, you know, and then uh just you know, add hot some uh like emulsified fat and spray the spray the thing out and it'll stay forever, you know, basically.
+
+[13:09] Uh you know, if you do like a gel-an fluid gel, it'll just stay and stay and stay and stay. Uh or you could um uh whip it, but I'm trying to remember like what I would do to I mean you could you don't have a like a homogenizer, we can't make like a cream out of it. Um yeah, I mean any like any one of those tactics would work. I mean I would just go, I'm sure like I'm sure you know Chymos has ripped somebody's recipe for like uh foam, you know, some sort of like beef fat foam uh and and then used it. Or you know, you could just do you could make a really hyper if it has to be beef fat, that's one thing, but like the easiest thing would just be to go with butter fat, like use a cream and then do reinforce a cream with a very, very concentrated uh beef stock.
+
+[13:57] Um super concentrated beef stock reinforced cream, and if you get the temperature of that right, the problem is is if you heat any of those things, you're gonna break them down. So, I mean, I'm assuming if you want like a cold foam. If you want a hot foam, I would definitely move to something more that would stabilize with something that's not gonna melt out when it gets hot, right? So you're not gonna do a hot foam with cream base. You're not gonna do a hot foam with a beef fat base unless it's stabilized with something that's a more you know you're not gonna use the B fat as a stabilizer is what I'm trying to say at at a hot temperature.
+
+[14:26] And you're talking hot, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think you're definitely gonna want to go to something like a uh fluid gel or because you want something denser, right? You don't want it like that light, that light, airy like uh that light airy kind of like less thinny stuff, right?
+
+[14:42] You want more of a hardcore Yeah well like a frost pretty much like something that will sit on it for a while and then you know perhaps dissipate in the way that a cappuccino eventually does. Yeah so you you know I would use I would I would use you can add a lot of gelatin as a as a bodying agent and then like take a hardcore uh like fluid gel and put it in as a stabilizer. Just get the flavor where you want it and you could probably add the melted beef fat to it and whisk it together it'll probably stay and then foam up it'll probably last I would guess. But like having not actually done that application myself because as you know I I have stayed away from uh foam toppings in general with in in my own practice just you know other than when I teach hydrocolloid classes but you know that was years ago because uh it's just you know I stay I stay away from it just because um you know I've uh I've had so many dealings with it but uh but but that should work. Okay, cool.
+
+[15:36] And about what percentage would you use the gel in? Oh well if you're gonna use gel and uh you might get a weird reaction actually you know you won't gel and gelatin work great together. That's how Wiley's uh deep fried mayonnaise and uh works. But um I mean you don't need a lot of you know you can get a really really depends on how stiff you want your fluid gel and how much you're going to add uh liquid back to it. So if you're gonna add a lot of liquid back to it, so you need a relatively stiff fluid gel, then you're gonna go high, and by high I mean like half a percent, which is really high.
+
+[16:05] Um you know, if it's gonna be the whole thing is gonna be a fluid gel on its own, then you could go down to like you know a quarter of a percent or something like this. But uh, you know, go start high, start like at uh at like a half a percent, or if you're gonna add a lot of liquid to it, even higher, like you know, eight tenths of a percent or something like that, and then when you dope it back, it'll be um yeah, also agar will work nicely if it's not going to be too hot and then it's easier, but agar might have some weird reactions with gel. Agar and gelatin, especially if the gelatin's really concentrated or break down, can have weird reactions where you get little like grittiness to it, which is unpleasant. So then, you know, in that case you want to use uh the gel in. Excellent.
+
+[16:40] Thank you very much, man. All right, good luck. Let us know how it works. So, Dave, I have one more caller that's been patiently waiting. All right, all right now.
+
+[16:48] Here we go. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hey Dave, this is Philip guy from Florida. I had a question. I'm curious about your opinions on any of the circulators under the 400 range.
+
+[17:00] There's a ton of them out there now. Um I just can't justify doing like an eight hundred dollar you know, poly science just because of you know, eight hundred dollars. But um, I'm not in a position to make my own, but there's a ton of them out there that are like under 400 bucks. I even looked at like the newer poly science ones that they label for home use. The problem is that some of them are under like 750 watts.
+
+[17:26] So I don't even think that would be worth considering. Do you have an opinion on any of those? Well, what what are the wattages of the I mean most of the I mean the old school poly science, right, is a thhous uh of heating. Uh right? That's right.
+
+[17:41] Yeah, a thousand watts of heating. And uh which ones are under 750 watts. I think they've got a new one now that they're marketing like for home people. It's like a funky yellow color. I think it's creative series or discovery, I have no idea.
+
+[17:55] One of those two. But it was like 750 watts, and every one of their other ones was a thousand watts. Like the Nomico was a thousand, so was the ANOVA, all that stuff for like home use. Most of them were over a thousand watts. Yeah.
+
+[18:09] So well, well, you gotta remember there's there's two ratings you have to look at. There's how many uh watts is the full unit, in other words, how much is it gonna suck out of your wall, and then what's the actual wattage of the heating element? And it's the wattage of the heating element because they're all basically the same heating style of element, so like you're not gonna get one that's drastically more efficient than another, so you don't really have to worry about it. You can pretty much match watts with watts. It's not like trying to compare uh, you know, uh an induction stove to uh uh uh you know a uh a resistive element stove where it's uh range rather where it's like you know you can't compare them.
+
+[18:42] So um the you know a lower watt wattage unit is just gonna start sucking wind when you start doing more products. So the question you have to ask yourself is if you know right now that you're never gonna cook more than 30 eggs at a time, you know, then you can go with a lower wattage. If you know that you're never going to uh you know cook uh a full lexan's worth of stuff, yeah, maybe you can go with a l a lower wattage. I mean, for me, I you know, I like having the the full thousand watts. In fact, like, you know, I often ask, I would often wish for more power because I usually push things to the edge of their envelope.
+
+[19:23] Now when it comes to you know spending the money, like the truth is is that you know my in a lot of ways my favorite is still the old metal one just because they're like so they're so tough. And then my second favorite is probably the you know the $800 plastic one which has a lot of advantages like smaller in the bath space. I've used um I've used uh two or three of the um of kind of the the newer style of ones including uh poly sciences I've used uh the no nomiku I've used the Sansare and I've used the uh ANOVA which one do you have Peter? The uh which one do you have? Circulator?
+
+[20:02] Yeah. Oh it's the one that was on Kickstarter. It's like half the Kickstarter. That's how anyway. They've all been on Kickstarter.
+
+[20:09] Yeah. Useless information. Peter Peter came from the museum just uh showed up with some useless information. Anyway, so I've used them all and the good news is is that they all pretty much hold uh the temperature. So they're all uh a valid way to start using these techniques at home.
+
+[20:24] You know the where you um where you lose in some of the things is kind of like the the fit and finish. So for $200 it's very hard to make something that's going to be as robust as uh an $800 one. You know what I mean? So it's just more apt to um to to break apart. And some of the cheaper ones actually have like fairly nice interfaces but sometimes they're a little more touchy or like parts will fall off of them while you're using them or they don't like pushing oil as opposed to water.
+
+[20:51] You know so but these are all specialist kind of things and so I would think that you know I would you know I would look at the specs on the lower uh wattage ones I would get like a certain an advantage. So a lower wattage one, if it's a smaller profile, actually might not be as much of a disadvantage because it takes up a lot less space in the container where you're circulating. So a lot of people don't think about um the fact that a larger circulator that takes up more space in the pot needs a fundamentally larger vessel to cook in, and so you need more power just to because you're dealing with a larger bucket of water. Whereas if you can get away with a smaller bucket of water because you have a smaller profile thing, then maybe you don't need as as much power. So these are all kind of things to to um look at.
+
+[21:34] But in terms of the actual like PID algorithm, there are slight differences between different people's PID algorithms, but they all freaking pretty much work. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, all right.
+
+[21:48] Well let us know uh getting some fuzz on here, but let us know which one you chose and whether you whether you like that. I like hearing feedback from people, you know? Don't you I right? All right, right. Yeah, they're supposed to we're supposed to have a newer one for the Nomi Coup that's Wi-Fi, but not really sure about that.
+
+[22:02] But it was like over 1200 watts. You can for the email, so that was what I was looking at. Alright, well, we we're getting a lot of it's hard for me. I I didn't I haven't seen the new Nomiku that uh Wi-Fi, but like uh you know I'm considering can you know turning my entire house to Wi-Fi so that when my router goes down I can no longer turn on the lights. I'm actually prepa uh petrified about this.
+
+[22:20] You guys know about these like light systems for your house? It's like you have these light systems like Hue where you can like I could like look at my house right now and be like, you know what? I I want my dog to be bathed in a soothing purple light. And I could like make a soothing purple light, like and look at on my phone and see whether my dog is grooving. On my phone, yeah, and see whether my dog's grooving.
+
+[22:37] But what happens when you when like you're they have a problem with your router? Right? You gotta go manual, I guess then. Yeah, but but like people are going switchless. Like they're not even having switch plates on the wall anymore.
+
+[22:50] Because I had it in the last apartment I was in, but it's like if if it wasn't working on the phone, you could just go turn it on. Well, so like some of the systems like are more just augmented with phone and Wi-Fi. And some of them are literally intended for you to turn your switches on and off on a regular basis with your phone because let's face it, like half the people you know are buried in their freaking phones all day anyway, so they might as well control their bowel movements from their phones. You know what I mean? Because they th that's how unseparated they are from it.
+
+[23:17] But uh but you know, like what happens if that goes down? It's like, you know, that's like uh, you know, the story I like to say that uh, you know, when they came the cable guys came right before um what was the hurricane that m hose a Sandy. When Sandy came through, uh like a week beforehand, they were like, We're giving you an internet phone. It's gonna be better than your real honest to God wire phone. Nope.
+
+[23:40] Because it's not redundant anymore. Like, you know, whatever. Whatever. I don't know. I'm I'm considering buying the these systems, but they just make me nervous because I'm an old geezer.
+
+[23:50] What'd you say? Oh, there's a new caller. Hey, um I actually need to take uh the answer off the air because I'm like right in a meeting right now, basically. But um I was wondering if you're familiar with the uh modbar pour module. Um it heats water to like a really specific temperature.
+
+[24:10] Is it similar to uh is it similar to like the the heating system like on a clover but just more in a pour over situation? Yeah, it's got it's got a boiler, um and it just pumps from the boiler to get it gets the water to a super specific temperature and then pumps out. I was looking for an alternate method to do that, but like not an insta hot, because what I've read is that insta hots generally suck and they break and they're awful. Uh how many cups do you need to make at once and how much time are you willing to wait for the cup to happen? Um well, I would like it to be on demand and an endless supply from a cold uh line.
+
+[24:45] I don't want it to come from a hot line. Yeah, I mean, so most of the problems with um so it's you look, temperature control is very similar no matter what style of coffee you're making. It's very similar problems, right? So uh I mean the only problem that you that you you don't have is uh the problem of pressure regulation and you know the other the the only problem that you do have that I wouldn't have is if you want some sort of agitation while you're working, if you want that to be um, you know, m or if you believe in like the you know the f super fancy swirl patterns and all this other stuff of how you add the liquids, right? But in terms of in terms of control of the water itself, right?
+
+[25:22] So I'm not talking about the delivery, but in terms of just the the temperature of the water, like that, you know, you could do for not very much you want to build one yourself. What's that? You want to build one yourself? Yeah, yeah. I want to do a DIY kit.
+
+[25:37] And actually I'll listen to a podcast because I have to go. But thanks in advance. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I'll just I'll just talk for a minute as though you were still on the air.
+
+[25:44] So the um like this kind of temperature control is is very fairly simple. So I'll just talk about it from in terms of how you would go about controlling something where I can picture it in my head exactly, which is, you know, the the classic uh yeah, I know it's espresso, but the the techniques are the same, right? Uh is like the Sylvia, right? So the Sylvia is the classic uh espresso machine that everybody mods out because you know it's it's you know, it's it's doesn't have a lot of parts, it doesn't have really electronics so much, it's like all like wired. It's very easy to break into and mess around with.
+
+[26:16] It's all open, there's lots of space on the inside. Um, you know, and it and it works r relatively well. It's high quality, right? So um the first thing you do is you want to you want to take whatever source of large amount of water that you have and you're gonna want to temperature control that right bang so um that is very easy you're just gonna get uh you're probably gonna get a an now I'm assuming you don't want to do anything fancy you're not gonna move to microprocessor control if you're gonna move to microprocessor control it's a whole different thing I might use a different set of systems to do it because depending on what microprocessor you use you have to buy a lot of stuff if you want to let's say integrate thermocouples into it because they they have to go through a thermocouple amplifier before they go into your microprocessor right as opposed to some other systems where it's which are a lot easier you can buy sensors fundamentally that just plug directly into many microprocessor systems so that you don't have to do a lot of like interfacing or programming or anything like this. But and there's billions of people online who have done coffee systems that are microprocessor based but I'm just gonna assume that you're not microprocessor right now.
+
+[27:16] So you're just gonna get a very simple uh PID controller uh from you know it depends on how much you want to spend you know how kind of like you know nice or fancy they are but you you can get one for like 30 bucks now thermocouple very cheap and you're not dealing with high pressure so it's not not a problem and you just want to um control the temperature of the uh vessel where the water is stored insulate the hell out of it uh have the heater uh at the uh bottom it'll form a convective uh thingam of crap so that you're not gonna have a problem with having too much of a temperature gradation throughout the thing so long as you're not radiating too much heat out of the top uh now your main and you don't really need to get rid of a lot of heat to regulate your temperature because you're gonna be pumping cold water into it when you're taking the stuff out. Now here's the deal. The larger the volume of water that you keep warm, the longer it will take, the longer it will take to get it warm at the beginning, but the less temperature fluctuation you have when you put water into it. Now you have two ways you can do this. You can take the hot water out, then pump water in, right?
+
+[28:14] And if you do it that way, then you have to wait each time you're going to make the coffee for the temperature to get back to where it was, but you're not going to have a temperature drop during the pump out. The other solution is to take and put a uh to wrap a heater around uh a pipe or to get an internal, like you can get what's called a cartridge heater that is uh like the screws in like a pipe style, or you can do it with a compression thing and actually put it in in line with the liquid. So you'd have you'd have a T, you'd have you have like two T's, the water would go through the T, pass over the cartridge heater and in, then you'd put a thermocouple uh on that and you'd use bang bang, meaning on off. So what happens is you'd set it to uh whatever the temperature slightly above the temperature of what you want it to be is, and then it would just it you have a hysteresis in it, like a regular little thermostat. The idea here is you just want to get the water within about one or two degrees of uh what you're gonna want to use.
+
+[29:14] And so if you wanted to do that and get a zero temperature drop, in espresso, you're looking at pulling you need roughly 600 watts of power to uh because we're pulling like a couple of ounces in 30 seconds, let's say, and so like it's around 600 watts of power is what you need on the bang bang side of it to keep make sure that the water is not going to drop too much. Then the other thing is you might have to warm up your delivery mechanism, uh, but usually these are done with very, very low wattage heaters. So in an espresso, you'd you'd be heating the group um with a with a very low wattage heater, like on the order of less than 100 watts, you know, and and that you know you'd also probably do PID. I don't know what you would heat in your system, but you might have some sort of uh mechanism that you need to heat, and you're not gonna want to design some complicated thermo siphon so that the boiler keeps it at exactly the temperature that you want. He's not gonna do that.
+
+[30:03] So um, yeah. I mean, and then you're gonna need the sol noise. I can talk more about it next time if you want, but is this making sense? Is it making sense about what you need to do? And I'm assuming that if anyone's gonna do this project that you know what PID means.
+
+[30:15] All right. So let me rip through some of these questions. I haven't gotten any questions. Do I need to take a break, Jack? Today's break song is by Night Show.
+
+[30:23] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show.
+
+[30:58] So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place. Molecular recipes.com.
+
+[31:20] And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout. That's promo code HERITAGEG. So again, check them out. Molecular recipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there.
+
+[31:35] Definitely right up your alley. There's another caller waiting, but you can answer another question before her if you want. Phone phone lines are off. All right, right, right. But you know what?
+
+[31:43] If you call in, I think you get precedence, no? I think so too. I call our caller. You're on the air. Oh, hi.
+
+[31:50] How are you doing? So I'm calling because I'm on uh a low FODMAP diet, which basically limits a lot of different sugars that uh humans don't digest that well. In fact, there's some evidence that all these people are going crazy for gluten free if you think they do well on a gluten-free diet. It's not the protein that's bothering them in wheat, it's actually the carbohydrate, it's the sugar. So I'm wondering, is there a way to get gluten, like pure gluten protein that I can add to breads and things?
+
+[32:24] I have no problem with the protein. I just have a problem with the sugar. Yeah, 100%. Vital wheat gluten. But I mean, remember, so like I used to buy that all the time.
+
+[32:31] So back uh, you know, I uh like what what I would do is is I would buy uh whatever kind of flowers I wanted, you know, in terms of um taste, and then I would just dope in gluten into it uh to uh up the protein content to the point where I would get the the elasticity and texture that I wanted. So I used to do that uh, you know, all the time, but it's been it's been a long time. But I I you know, since I've I used to I used to bake bread, you know, every every day basically, and so I had like a lot of this stuff lying around and I haven't for a long time. But yeah, I mean I think most supermarkets might still carry it. You can get cans of it on Amazon.
+
+[33:08] The vital wheat gluten. I used to get it in a box. Yeah. But yeah, you get the vital wheat gluten, and yeah, you can just go to town on that stuff. Now remember, you don't want to overgluten your your stuff either.
+
+[33:19] But yeah, it's yeah, and it wor it works, it works well. I've used it uh used it many, many times. So if I do that and then I want to make an alkaline like rameny noodle, it would work because the gluten would be there. Right. So yeah, you would increase the texture, you won't get the yellowness from the gluten because the yellowness comes from um colorless uh compounds in the flower itself that are that are then that that when they go alkaline, then they develop their characteristic uh yellow colors.
+
+[33:51] So some people so chewy chewy as possible. Chewy as possible. Yellow, not so much. Well, in other words, like it's gonna turn yellow if those things are there, and and if it's not, then it's not. But chewy chewy is definitely uh possible.
+
+[34:04] Now I've never tried to get I mean I'm sure that it's not uh like a hundred percent like one for one because like all systems are complicated. So I don't know that I don't know that if you were to let's say take cornstarch and gluten the hell out of it, whether it's gonna have the right texture or not. I just don't know. Uh because there's there's other things going on like the like the the structure of the starch itself, yada yada yada. But the but but the yes, but the point is you can give it a shot.
+
+[34:30] But if you want it to go yellow, in fact I had someone tweet me this the other day, like uh people add um vitamin B12 uh B2, which is riboflavin, uh because I guess because it's yellow, but I don't know how much to add or or or whether or not that's a that's a good idea. But in reality, the yellow is more of a consumer mark marker, it's not an actual I mean it's not an actual quality indicator other than then and then the than the then the flower, you know. Um one thing to note is that uh on yellow alkaline noodles, there's two color components that are there, and that is the um the yellowness and also what's called brightness. And brightness has to do uh there's browning that takes place or you know kind of darkening that takes place and it typically takes place in high protein flours so uh yellow alkaline noodles have some bite to them but they're not necessarily done with super high gluten flour the best color yellow alkaline noodles that don't have the darkening are typically done with kind of a medium strength of flour so I wouldn't go I wouldn't go you know Megilla gorilla on the on the gluten I would just get it to where it would be kind of like a like a a in in the AP range of proteins not like on the heavy bread side and but not down on the on the pastry or cake side either. Okay cool.
+
+[35:49] I will definitely give it a try. And these the sugars are all water soluble but not fat soluble so one very quick follow-up question what is the best way to infuse oils with mushrooms, garlic and onions because I can't have any of them and I love them. Oh well um I mean uh I mean I would just I would just do like uh you don't have a centrifuge I would just uh I would just cut them really fine and just do like a old school you like you like heated alliums or raw alliums uh I like both but uh heated is fine. Yeah so if you like it heated I would just heat it with it and then strain it you get a lot out a lot out of that uh that flavor like old school would you do it in a would you do it in low temp water bath or would you just do it right on the on the uh stove like saute? I mean it depends on what flavor profile you want.
+
+[36:39] So like the the the chemistry of uh alliums is extremely complex right so the flavors are gonna be different let's say you were to crush or grind the the the garlic first, right? And then put it but the the th the tr the trouble is is that you're gonna have trouble filtering it out. Like you're gonna have to use don't use a coffee filter it's gonna take you forever. But if you use like uh if you use like a uh uh like a paper towel or something, you could probably get most of it out again. But crush crushing garlic or crushing onions and letting it sit for a minute before they get cooked out, it's gonna give you a different flavor profile than if you slice them and do it, uh or you know, any anything else.
+
+[37:12] Mushrooms, mushrooms. I've never made a mushroom oil. Hmm. Because all I can buy is truffle oil, and that's like bomb flavor-wise. I I'd rather have, you know, almost like a portabella.
+
+[37:30] But I mean, can you can you can you take a dried mushroom, soak it, and then throw the water away and have the mushroom? Does the does the stuff go away or is it too intact in there? Like can you leach enough of it out? Rub in other words, you can't leach it out of the mushroom and then eat the mushroom. Maybe it would get enough of it out of it.
+
+[37:51] I mean, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know how much it's gonna I don't want to like have you mess up your system, but I'm wondering like so if you take something that's dried that has a little bit of rupture or you know, a little bit of disruption in it anyway, you do the soaking and you take the broth, which is what I use, you know, like all the time. I mean, like it's g give it to someone to make risotto, please don't throw it out. But then maybe the mushrooms that went afterwards when they're done, maybe they've leached enough of their uh stuff out that they're okay for you. I don't know.
+
+[38:16] I would ask, I don't know if there's a way to test it. I mean the worst that happens, I get a upset stomach. It's not like I'm gonna get hives or go in anaphylactic or something. But yeah, that's a really good idea to try. Yeah, so then yeah, you can have the the porcinis after they've rehydrated, and then somebody else can have the, you know, you can make a dye mushroom dashi with it, or you can make uh, you know, risotto.
+
+[38:35] All of these things are delicious. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds very cool. Thank you very much for the ideas.
+
+[38:40] All right, thank you. And if anyone knows of uh making your own mushroom oil, tweet us in and let us know. Uh let us know how it's done. I can't think he's gonna have the break. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna put that in later.
+
+[38:44] Yeah. So we have like an eight uh seven-minute warning here. So wow, what a random warning. Seven minute warning. Jack's coming up with a new sport with a seven-minute warning.
+
+[38:58] That's right. All right. Okay, we got two questions, all about both on the same thing. So I'm gonna do them both at once. At least I get two questions done.
+
+[39:05] Ready? This is David from Pittsburgh wrote in, and also with a similar question, uh 80 from the UK. So uh we'll start we'll read them both and then answer them both, right? Okay. So we got uh Dave, I love the show.
+
+[39:16] You guys should have a TV show. Yeah, right, right from uh from yeah, whatever. I don't know, no one's gonna give us a TV show. Right? No one's gonna give us a TV show.
+
+[39:23] There's been interest. Yeah, interest, interest this. You know what? Whatever, I don't have time to talk about it. So much bad cooking TV out there.
+
+[39:30] Probably true. There's a lot of TV. Most TV is bad. Period. Not just cooking TV.
+
+[39:34] Most TV is bad. Most things are bad in the world. Most things in the world are low quality. You have a lot of questions. Okay.
+
+[39:41] Yeah. Uh okay. Uh I am from uh Southwest Pennsylvania, and as you probably know, Scrapple is big in these parts. I do know that. Uh I was wondering if you could talk about the high-end scrapple you made reference to a couple of episodes back.
+
+[39:53] And also if you could talk about the uh process of making different flavored dashies. I've been hearing a lot about bacon, uh, apple, potato dashies to name a few. Thanks so much, uh, Dave from Pittsburgh. And then 80 from the UK wrote in with a similar question. Just caught up with episode 194.
+
+[40:07] Oh my god, what episode are we on now, Jack? I have to check, man. Is this 200? No, no, no, no. It's close, though.
+
+[40:13] Okay. Uh, can Dave please speak to and describe what his fancy version of Scrapple involved and also Haggis? And when will the Sears all with the new plate or the new uh plated back screens be available? Thanks for the show and don't stop. Best 80 from the UK.
+
+[40:26] Okay. This is 197, by the way. Ooh. All right, uh 80. Sears all should be in stock when next Monday.
+
+[40:29] Next Monday, hopefully in stock, next Monday. And by the way, the steak decorators, they're shipping them in March. We're looking for a March ship date now because the manufacturer, I forced them to get certification of food grade for everything that they were doing in the uh in the steak decorator, and it took them a while to get their food grade certification in. So I apologize, but steak decorator shipping in mid-March, right, Stas? Okay.
+
+[40:56] Uh now, uh, let's and then I'll answer the non-scrapple slash haggis related question uh that David had. If you could talk about the process of making different flavored dashis. So typically when someone says X, Y, or Z like Dashi, and it's not really so really Dashi, right? The way we think about it here, you take your kombu, which is this the kelp, the seaweed giant kelp, and you heat it. I prefer to heat it not at boiling.
+
+[41:19] Like a lot of people will just bring it up to the simmer and then let it go, let it sit for a while, pull it out. I prefer to keep it around 70 Celsius. I had to have a whole bunch of combu tests that Nastasi hated taste, you hated those combu tests because we were just tasting kombu dashi without any bonito in it at all, right? So she hated it. But anyway, like I we did extensive testing on on this.
+
+[41:38] You can go look on the old cooking issues thing if it hasn't been entirely taken over by Cialis. Uh you know, some sort of Cialis salesperson from uh from the former Soviet Union. But the um uh so you take the combu, you do whatever you're gonna do with it, and then and that and that pretty much is invariant. Everybody does the combo. Then the question is what are you gonna add to it?
+
+[41:57] So typically, if you are making standard dachi, you take the katsuabushi, which is the you know, the the the pieces of the bonito that have been like kind of like cooked, molded, dried, smoked, cook, molded, dried smoke, and they turn into these like boards, these not boards, but they look like wood, they look like wood. And then you shave them uh into these delicious like bonito flakes, which you know are bonito flakes, and then you put them in and you soak it and it gets that awesome kind of proteiny cook. It's like all of the it's amazing. I so I you know I I I I love this stuff. But if you don't eat that, then you um then you could use mushrooms.
+
+[42:33] We were talking about mushrooms before. That adds a lot, because you're uh trying to add the you're trying to add the different parts to get the super umami out of it, right? Or, you know, Chang, Dave Chang, who started making bak bacon, what he called bacon dashi a long time ago, is like, well, the you know, these fish are gonna be fished out soon. So what if we use kind of pork products? What if and he actually made pork like katsuabushi things that are cured in a very similar similar way, or you could just use bacon because what you're really looking for is something meaty, savory, you know, sometimes smoky, depending on how you're feeling uh about it, cured.
+
+[43:03] Uh other and then uh I've never the apple dashi that I've seen is really just a dashi that people have added apple to. It's like you know, dashi with apple in it. Um not like apple instead. I look for potato, and I think people probably just doing potato and dashi, although I did see somebody actually fermented a potato. Anytime you're gonna make a dashi and you're you starting with a kambu thing, you want something else that has protein breakdown products in it, right?
+
+[43:27] So think things like uh bonito flakes or like uh mushrooms or like um I guess even you know, any anything that people say are like big umami bombs, probably even like uh cheese rinds, parmesan cheese rhymes would be good. Things like that. So it's just looking to get that savory thing in a in a quick way. So, you know, like a classic Japanese dashi stock, all the work is done beforehand, uh, and then the dashi happens in like in a couple of minutes. Whereas in a western stock, you know, they do fundamentally no work beforehand and then they spend hours on the stock, right?
+
+[43:59] That's fundamentally different way of looking at it. Now, two scrapple and haggis, and this is gonna be our last thing because they're gonna get rid of us. So, scrapple is uh, for those of you that don't know, is a cornmeal and uh buckwheat, a lot of people omit the buckwheat, mush, that is made by taking whatever crap you have when you butchered uh the animal, so the pluck, which is like kind of the heart, the lungs, the liver, uh, and then plus plus some bones and other odds and ends and like scraps, and you boil that to make a very richly flavored stock that has like usually if you add a lot of bony stuff, a lot of gelatin in it and whatnot, you pull all the meat out after it's after it's soft and rendered and falling off the bone, and you you you put all the meat, rip it off the bones, you put it through a grinder, and then uh you add you add a mixture of cornmeal and a buckwheat to the uh stock and you stir it like you're making a polenta cook it, throw the meat back into it, right? For it into blocks, right? And then uh you take those blocks, you chill them, you cut them into into slices, and then you fry them, right?
+
+[45:02] And so now, depending on whether you are, you know, a city kid like me, you either have it in the morning with maple syrup on it, because I put maple syrup on every damn thing because that's who I am, but uh, or not, like a lot of people are against the maple syrup, right? You know what I'm saying? A lot of people are against the maple syrup. I happen to like it, and I can do what I like. So now the question is why don't people like this?
+
+[45:21] Because people are stupid, right? So you have to move to a higher end version of it. You have to take away what people don't like about uh the scrapple, and to make a higher end version, here's a couple you can also make it taste more refined. So here are the things. People don't like liver in their scrapple, as it turns out.
+
+[45:38] So what you want to do is like reduce the amount of liver that you have in it, sometimes down to none, and it might not be as official anymore, but you're gonna get a lot more people pounding a lot more of it if it doesn't have a heavy liver flavor in the mush. That's just one suggestion. Another thing is um Quick, quick, quick. Okay. You the way I do it, like to make a higher higher also.
+
+[45:57] I'm gonna get killed by people from Pennsylvania, but if you go to a straight corn meal and don't do the buckwheat, it won't taste traditional, but a lot more people who are used to loving Italian food are gonna like it more, right? It's gonna taste or even like regular southern food because it's not gonna have another intrusive like kind of taste or texture to it. So go to a straight corn meal to work people into it to go higher. Also, make a stock first, right? And then don't use that meat to add the meat to the thing.
+
+[46:25] So add a flavorful meat, almost like whatever sausage base you want. Add that as your ground meat to the scrapple when it cooks out at the end, so it hasn't been cooked for a billion years like that, it's tenorized, and then make a stock and a pressure cooker beforehand with your scraps and bones so that you're separating the problem of the stock preparation from the from the meat that's going into it. So that makes it just a much kind of more refined, you can adjust the flavors more. Uh you can get a nice texture out of everything. It's not like a big mess, and you can cut it.
+
+[46:52] Uh uh, and then next time we'll talk about the haggis cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[47:22] Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C three nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Hardold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, joined as usual with this Dasha Hammer Lopez and Jack in the engineering booth today. How are you doing, guys? Isn't it our 200th? No, not yet. No, because we skipped last week.
+
+[0:46] Oh. This is like, what is this? 99 or 98. Pull this up. Oh, it's 98.
+
+[0:50] No, it's either 199. Oh, 199. 199. 199 episodes. And we're on next week, right?
+
+[1:00] Yeah, well, I mean, you tell us. Oh, nah, nah. Poo-poo. I forget what we were. Oh, yeah, we had that.
+
+[1:06] What should we do for 200? I don't know. Like, there's people like tweet by the way. Should you have any questions? I have a lot.
+
+[1:12] I know I have a huge backlog, people. I don't want to hear it. We might have to do a catch-up before 200. Well, then that would technically be 200. I would upload it and it would be 200, you know.
+
+[1:22] So you're saying we have to do ketchup after 200. Right. All right. Listen. Will there be champagne next week?
+
+[1:27] Yes. Oh, nah Stas is going to show up. I just confirmed. I'll just do that. Right before the show, Stas was like, you know what?
+
+[1:36] I'm just not going to do it anymore. I'm not going to show up. And then she's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? Champagne.
+
+[1:41] And listen. Here's the question. Are we actually talking champagne? Who do we have? I think it matters.
+
+[1:46] Are you any bubbly? Yeah. Really? No preference? Kava.
+
+[1:50] I was ready to take your preference. Whoa. No. Just give it away. I mean, it's 200.
+
+[1:55] Come on. Well, that's true. It is 200. Stasel stuff. Listen.
+
+[1:58] So we can get Krug. Call in your 200, me and Stas can host the show we've been wanting to host for 200 episodes. It's called Issues. Yeah, just where we talk about our issues and solve your issues unrelated to cooking. Like my personal issues?
+
+[2:14] Anybody's anybody's, yeah. Just issues in general. Just issues. That's a wide-ranging show. You could just take the three of our issues and fill a whole show.
+
+[2:21] Anyway, listen. So call your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128. And I also want you guys to maybe come up with some sweet, sweet ideas for the uh 200, right? Yeah.
+
+[2:35] Send us some uh email. I got some listener emails with some some ideas, but keep them coming. Yeah? Yeah. All right.
+
+[2:41] All right, very good. Okay. Uh so some updates. Uh we had uh M Rack on the he is at Test Tube Waltz. That's his uh his or her.
+
+[2:52] Actually, I don't know. M. Her, her. Test at test tube waltz uh wrote in because someone had asked about um how to suspend citrus oils. Remember this question a couple weeks back?
+
+[3:01] And so uh his her suggestion is uh used uh leveraged Esther of Wood Rosin is a new brominated vegetable oil. There's and not polysorbate, but maybe, maybe, because you're not gonna be able to get the leverage Esther of uh wood uh rosin, try lessithin. Um and also uh cyclodextrin might work to carry citrus oil, and it's clearer. Uh the c uh the carrying capacity is lower, however. So there you go.
+
+[3:28] That's a follow up for I forget who it was that asked about that, but I love it when people follow up on the Twitter. I try to read it back. And then we had one, someone tried to ask about mushroom oil. Remember that one? Someone's gonna make mushroom oil because they couldn't have the mushrooms necessarily, I think was what it was.
+
+[3:40] And I forgot, I'm sorry, whoever tweeted this into me, I forgot to copy who it came from, but uh I think this was at Clef's, maybe. Maybe this is at Clus did this. Uh to make mushroom oil, take a neutral oil, dry mushrooms in a two to one ratio, blend for about eight minutes until very or until very fine. Cook at 80 degrees Celsius in 24 hours for 24 hours in a water bath, strain it, or don't. It's up to you.
+
+[4:02] Strain a note. I don't know where I don't know where they come from. So that's how I assume they sound like. In my head, that's how everyone sounds like until I hear you. Pretty much right, right, Stuzz?
+
+[4:09] Yeah. Okay. Um I feel like I need to answer Max uh Max's questions about outdoor kitchens because like it's been like I don't know, a month and a half or something. So I want to build an outdoor kitchen with a big barbecue. Not the right time of year in our part of the woods, by the way.
+
+[4:23] Uh so like I'm definitely gonna but anyway, okay. Uh I'd like to bu uh build an outdoor kitchen with a big barbecue, a smoker, and maybe a rotisserie. You like rotisserie stars? Yeah. You like rotisserie cook things?
+
+[4:33] How about you, Jack? Are you fan of the rotisserie? Oh, yeah. Why why is it do you know why the rotisserie is good? No.
+
+[4:39] Okay. I would assume because it's even. Well, it's it's it it works in in okay. So McGee and I have this thing, and it's like, you know, the kind of like the law of why the rotisserie works good. Well, good.
+
+[4:50] It works good. So like the reason why is um it has a very high instantaneous heat input, but a very low average heat input. So you develop that nice crust with uh or nice surface with the high instantaneous uh heat input, but because your average heat input is low, it acts almost like a low temperature kind of uh cooking situation. So it's a very old way to achieve kind of modern results if you want. See?
+
+[5:13] See? See what I mean? See? I built a rotisserie once. Did I did too?
+
+[5:16] How how did you build your rotisserie? I built several. How'd you build yours? Over uh spit with ropes, and then I would turn it. Oh, you turned it by hey, you were the power.
+
+[5:25] I was the power. Right. Well, you know, uh, I did we did this TV show thing once where I had to, we they had to they used an actual dog to power the spit because they used to have turn spit dogs that would run a little hamster wheels. No, no, uh Tudor, tutor era. Oh.
+
+[5:37] This was time machine. Time machine chief. Yes. Uh, but also like the root I built a rotisserie once that fit into my salamander, but I had to pull out the dripping grease dripping trade, otherwise the chickens wouldn't fit into it. And I was like, you know, I don't want to just do cornish hands, so I've got to do the chicken, so I had to drop it down and get rid of the grease tray.
+
+[5:55] But the other best rotisserie I ever did, you know what the problem with rotisserie motors is? People, rotisserie motors suck, and here's why. The average rotisserie motor you can get is really a just a POS, and here's why. Uh they don't have uh zero backlash gears. So what's happening is a rotisserie needs to spin slowly.
+
+[6:12] Let's say it does, I don't know, three, four RPM, something like that, four RPM, right? Let's say it's around there. I don't know. I gotta look it up. But anyways, uh so you put the shaft on it and you've weighted your whatever, uh, hopefully, so that it doesn't uh so that it's even and doesn't like you know move around on your skewer on your spit too much, right?
+
+[6:28] Now here's what happens. Uh you never ever load it exactly right. There's always some sort of imbalance. So what happens is is the motor goes. You've heard them, right?
+
+[6:40] And then it gets to the point where that top load goes over and then it goes into free fall for you know a good a good like seven, eighth degrees. And it goes k-chink, and then it goes again as it goes around and and you can hear it. And and so what's the problem with this? Well, one, one section of your thing isn't getting hit for the same amount of time as the rest, which is stupid. But also, it puts like not only did it start out in balanced, but it puts a k-chink k-chink k chink load on it every freaking time it spins around.
+
+[7:09] And so every freaking time it spins around, it has a little bit of force added to it, and as it gets more and more uh soft or cooked or you know hot, it has a tendency to spin out. So you get all these things where it runs all right for a while and then craps out on you unless you're used to it and do a really good job. Or you have the side, you know what I'm talking about, the side chinks that really sit in there and really crush that stuff. I hate that. I hate it.
+
+[7:29] And so um, you know, the first rotisserie I ever built, I used a zero backlash, really expensive motor because I stole it. Like we had like a pile of motors that the uh Columbia University had, and they didn't know what they didn't know because like they were shutting this department down, so it's just a huge pile of motors there. So we used a sweet old bowdine motor with an awesome gear shaft, like a long thing. We cut a 55-gallon drum in half, incinerated all of the uh carcinogenic paint off of it so it was dry. Cut a sheet of expanded metal in half, four by eight sheet of expanded metal in half that we also stole, put it over the thing, welded some legs on it, and put like a giant pig on this uh rotisserie.
+
+[8:05] It was awesome. And you know what? That motor had no backlash. Anyway, so in terms of rotisseries, what I would suggest is either hire Nastasia to come and be the power for the rotisserie, but it's some of these things cook a long time. I know.
+
+[8:17] You know what I mean? I know. Yeah, what about the you ever do the vertical one, the one in the fireplace with the spinning thing where you use the just the no? Anyway. Uh hire uh Nastasi to come, and you know, she gets her energy from spite and hate.
+
+[8:30] So you'd have to like, you know, if you stand there, then I'm sure she'll have enough energy. Oh my uh but get a zero backlash motor when you're making a rotisserie. And the other thing is if you're gonna have a rotisserie there that's powered, you're gonna need to obviously get electricity. Now, there's two kinds of uh kind of outdoor uh kitchens. Now, the the question actually was: do I have any good literature and or blogs on the subject that I can recommend?
+
+[8:54] Answer no. Uh because uh because I you know, I haven't done like the full research on it. First, I've been researching right now just what's the best way to pour the concrete for the slabs, uh the refractory, bricks, and uh you know, and and things like this. So I've been looking at individual things because remember in my outdoor, so there's various kinds of outdoor kitchens. Outdoor kitchens are extremely popular now, so even like Quick Crete, the concrete people have a book that they put out that shows you you know how to lay it out and you know do the coursing and and stuff to to build it.
+
+[9:22] But most people fundamentally want just you know an outdoor kitchen, i.e. they want their uh they want their fridge, they want you know a bunch of stuff electric and gas at it. I'm gonna have gas there as a gas assist for the fire pit, but I'm primarily building an outdoor wood-fired uh kind of cooking station uh and not like mm, may maybe a traditional one, except for I am gonna have gas to it to run the gas assist and to run the deep fryer, which is gonna need to be covered because my deep fryer is gonna be outside in Connecticut. So I don't have anything uh right now except for like I said before, I'm gonna build a uh curticula, which is the Roman style thing, like a uh like a high heat surface, a bread oven, a tandoor, and a fire pit. I'm gonna maybe I'll build a rotisserie thing uh into it, and I will probably want a fridge, right?
+
+[10:08] And a fryer, you want a fridge? Because why? Because you need a fridge, because why not? And work surfaces. So as I do it, I will talk more about on the show, but I don't have any specific references right now.
+
+[10:17] But uh, you know, obviously I love telling people where I get ideas, so as I do it, I will come up with with information. And it's too cold. You're in Sweden for for Christ's sakes. How are you building an outdoor kitchen in Sweden right now? Although I remember when I went to Stockholm, I think I talked about this on the show.
+
+[10:31] I'd like I went in January or February, January, and the people in Stockholm were so baller. Because they're just they're sitting outside in Stockholm in the wintertime having drinks, and everyone just like has blankets on, like giant blankets, and they're standing under heat lamps outside, and they're like, what? What? What? Anyway, so Swedes, love them.
+
+[10:53] Okay. Um Jesper, you also wrote in a question uh from Sweden on uh road of AFs, but it's long and complicated, so I'll get to it. I'll get to it later. And it's about uh chilling. So uh did I answer that one already, actually?
+
+[11:05] I don't know. Jack will figure out whether it did. Stephanie wrote so. All right, Stephanie wrote in from Sydney, Australia. You ever been to Australia?
+
+[11:13] No, you know this. What about you, Jack? I have not, no. No. I want to go to Australia someday.
+
+[11:18] Want to go to New Zealand someday in Australia. So far away. So far. Uh I'm Stephanie from Sydney, and I love listening to your podcast. Uh, I have a slow juicer that I use almost daily.
+
+[11:27] Slow juicer sounds like a dance, doesn't it? Slow juicer. Yeah. Over the last year, a white film has built up all over um all over the internal surfaces, even though I wash it properly every time. I've been trying to look up what causes this and how to get rid of it.
+
+[11:43] Most articles on uh the internet tell me it is caused by the oils in the fruit and the vegetables, and to clean it with a bicarbonate plus vinegar solution. So, like, well, that's just making foaming, right? Bicarbonate maybe. Uh I've tried this and it works on the lighter bits of white film, whoight, right? White film.
+
+[12:01] Uh, but some of the buildup, especially in the nooks and crannies. Ooh, nooks and crannies. Now I'm thinking of Thomas's English muffins. You like Thomas's English muffins? Who doesn't like them?
+
+[12:09] You know what, you know how you kill a Thomas' English muffin? Slice that sucker in half with a knife so that you cut all the crannies. You gotta fork split them. Yeah, it's gotta be a fork. Gotta be fork split.
+
+[12:18] I've seen how many times have you seen someone try to bust out a bunch of Thomas's English muffins and they cut it with a knife and they obliterate them? Ridiculous! You need a fork. Yeah. God, God.
+
+[12:29] Makes me so and my blood boils. People do that. Crazy. Okay. Uh where was that?
+
+[12:29] Nooks and crannies. Uh the crap. And the nooks and crannies are a lot more stubborn. They wouldn't be if Nastasia did it because they'd just be sliced flat. Anyway.
+
+[12:44] Um. Okay. Uh it also takes a lot of bicarbon vinegar to get anywhere. Another website says to rub extra virgin olive oil on it. Something about oil dissolving in oil, like oil on oil action.
+
+[12:56] Like that says? Okay. Uh but this only works superficially. Once the plastic bits are clean and dry, the white film is still present. No one likes a white film.
+
+[13:06] No one likes a white film. Um I'm wondering if you have any idea what causes this and if you have any better way of getting rid of this stubborn juicer scum. Thanks. Uh regards, uh, Stephanie Go. So the truth of the matter is is that I kind of just put up with things like like films.
+
+[13:22] I probably shouldn't, right? But I I did some uh look into it. Um, and if they are in fact oil-based, I don't know this is gonna work, and I couldn't find anyone that specifically recommended it, but one of the most stubborn things that I have to get off of anything is uh like uh really baked in coffee oils. They're really a pain in the butt on the internals of like espresso machines um and things like this. And Ernx or like espresso machine or coffee machine detergent is pretty hardcore.
+
+[13:51] So assuming that your products uh are made of a plastic that can be boiled, then you can just boil those suckers in um in Urnex or whatever like the local equivalent of espresso machine cleaning detergent is, and that stuff is no joke. That like like I put my uh you know, my brass into it that has like all like kind of crap on it from the inside of the espresso machine, like you know, the uh where the group head is, and boom, the chrome stuff comes out shining. Um plastic things. I I'd cook my I cook my uh my coffee brush brushes, which are you know pretty tough. I cook those in it and they come out sparkling.
+
+[14:28] So uh that stuff's pretty good. Um another uh thing is Nutrafaster, the juicer, which is like kind of like one of the butt-kicking juicers of all juicing time. It's like it's the one that looks like a spaceship on top of a pillar. Um they make a product for cleaning out the metal parts of their juicers in case they get filmed or slimed out. Uh it's proprietary, and it's called clean cut, but you can buy it from Nutrafaster, and that stuff might work.
+
+[14:53] And then, as a last thing, in case it is some sort of buildup um that is related to uh water, maybe, maybe I don't know, hard water or something. And even I've read some things that things that aren't having to do with this can be solved by using CLR, which is the calcium lime and rust deposit remover. And like maybe there's something in there that's attacked by that. So give those three things a try and let me know what happens, right? Yeah.
+
+[15:18] Alex writes in, I don't think we got do we talk about Wondra? No. Wondra. Uh hello, Anastasia, Jack, and Dave. Thanks for the show and everything else.
+
+[15:26] Uh, I've listened to just about every back episode over the past two years, and I haven't heard you comment uh about uh pressure cookers that don't leak any steam as being better, but I cannot recall ever hearing why. I have some guesses, but would rather hear your reason. Um and if it's a slow day and you have time for another question, last week you spoke to a caller about ultra spurs versus uh uh M versus three. Oh, remember ultra spurse are the uh pre-agglomerated um pre-cooked starches that dissolve in easily as opposed to um you know the the ones that are just pre-cooked, but then when you put them in, they can clump very quickly because they they you know they form they form balls because they they they clump that's why you get a pre-agglomerated anyway. Uh I'm unfamiliar with them beyond being pre-gelatinized starch, maize and tapioca respectively.
+
+[16:11] How are they different than Wundra? Uh which is the you know uh a wheat flour that you can buy, which we'll talk about. And what am I missing out by not using them? Thanks again, Alex. Okay.
+
+[16:20] Um first to the pressure cooker. I don't know why. I really don't. Like um, it was one of those things that I never anticipated. Um I never anticipated.
+
+[16:30] So the the the what we did years and years ago, uh I was doing a test on pressure cooked stocks, and I had assumed that pressure cooked stocks would beat traditional stocks like very easily because I had made pressure cooked stocks for years at home with my pressure cooker, which is a coon recon. And I at school they had these uh kind of these phagor pressure cookers, and the phagor pressure cookers, they the way they work by re to regulate pressure is they vent a constant amount of steam to keep the internals of the thing at 15 psi. And what you do is is you just throttle it down so it's only leaking a little bit of steam, and then you know that it is running at pressure. That's how they regulate their pressure. Whereas Coon Recon has a spring in it, and what happens is you can look at it and you can adjust the height of the spring, which says how much pressure there is.
+
+[17:18] So you keep you just use your your heat regulation to adjust how high the spring pressure is, but it doesn't until it gets old and the seals start getting weak, it doesn't leak any steam as it's cooking. So, anyways, so I'm there making a pressure cooker uh stock in the Fagor, and I do the side by side, and it comes out looking like I expected. Pressure cooker stocks come out browner than regular stocks. Um so you know, everything's as expected. We go do our blind taste test, boom.
+
+[17:43] The traditional stock, like everyone liked it better. Everyone liked it better. Uh I liked it better. I was like, well, because you don't want that to happen. I mean, you do, but you don't.
+
+[17:53] And then uh we did it again, and traditional stocks win again. And remember, I had already started writing a blog post of this, but I'm already like a thousand words into the blog post. I don't want it to be for nothing, and I'm gonna have to publish this negative result. So I bring my pressure cooker from home and I make stock and it wins easily over the traditional stock. And then we did all three side by side another couple of times.
+
+[18:13] And so we just did it empirically. It just turned out that these pressure cookers that were venting a lot as they were cooking were not producing the same taste results as the ones that uh didn't. And so and I don't know why to this day, I've never had someone run GC mass spec on it to see whether we're losing a particular volatile. I have no I have no speculation uh that makes any sense. I just know it from um empirically, and until someone comes back and shows me, you know, that why or what I was doing wrong, I just stick with the coon recon that doesn't vent, or I you can seal stock in jars or cans inside of a venting pressure cooker and get those same results.
+
+[18:50] Anyways, uh wundra. So ultra spurse, uh all of those ultra-spurse products are pure starches that are are, you know, they're very highly kind of uh refined uh starches that have very specific um characteristics that are nice, but they're pure starches that are pre cooked, then agglomerated so that they dissolve properly. Wundra, on the other hand, is flour that is pre cooked and agglomerated. So it's not wheat hu eat starch, it's uh wheat flour that that is kind of instantized in the way that these other things are instantized. So in a situation where you would want to bring uh I think it's low protein flour.
+
+[19:28] If you want to bring uh like the all the characteristics of a low protein flour including the protein into it then you would use uh wondra. So like wondra a lot of people use it um a lot of people use pre uh you know pre agglomerate pre gelatinized uh starches in uh batters for instance I think because they can uh absorb and capture water very quickly I don't know why but I I there's a bunch of studies on it but I I don't really remember the mechanisms of it. Anyways so that that's the difference and that's you know use one where you would want a pure starch and use the other where you would want all the characteristics of a flour just in an instant format. Tom Fisher wrote in about lobster. I don't know whether I answered this dear Dave Nastasha Jack and uh Wyatt not here today.
+
+[20:06] You see you he just got here later oh hey Wyatt what's up buddy you got called out right in time perfect. I mean uh croissant right now yeah talking with his mouth like a regular croissant or some sort of like nouveau croissant almond almond what do you think about the almond croissant stuff? No. You don't you like chocolate in your croissant but you don't like a regular croissant because you know what Nastasia hates buttery flaky delicious things. Did you know this?
+
+[20:28] Biscuits she hates it yeah hates biscuits it hates it so there's a new thing that's out I mean we all know about Dominique Ansel's uh crow nut right but isn't there some sort of like new like croissantery going on with some sort of one of the bigger some sort of like croissanification of something yeah it's like they're they're I don't know they're turning a cow into a croissant or something like this. I don't know like very finely layered buttery flaky cow crispy. Anyway someone else should come up with it like a pork rind croissant you know pork pork rind sant well the thing is like you'd have to make like micro layers of pork rinds. That's kind of saying, yeah. Layer them, fry them up in butter and claret clary butter.
+
+[21:06] Yeah, try it. We'll try it sometime. But I think you know the problem is um you'd have to get it uh like just right, otherwise the layers will fuse together. So when you're when you're making puff snacks, if you toss them in uh like a tiny bit of salt water right before you uh puff them, the starches as they become molten will glue themselves together. That's like uh the principle of making those kind of rice cakes.
+
+[21:28] And plus even without salt water. That was the pr that's how you can do it in a microwave. You can make like rice cakes in a microwave that way. Please uh don't don't do it because don't do it, but you can. I've done it.
+
+[21:37] But uh, you know, there's itinerant issues with it. But like uh it or in puffing guns, when it's still molten, if they're touching, they'll glue they'll glue themselves together. So we have to make the pork rind such that the the sheets when they melt and expand, don't glue themselves together. You won't get all the layers like a like in the what would you call the poor poisson? You call it like a poisson, but that'll be more of a fish.
+
+[21:56] I don't know, we figured out. Someone else so you see Santa's little hipster today. Uh no, is it what is he looking like? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[22:04] Nice. Anyway, Tom Fisher writes in, I took your advice from several weeks ago regarding steaming lobsters for lobster rolls. Uh, given that you can't really get a thermopen into the meat, well, you can. You gotta boom punch it through the carapace. Anyway, um, into the meat.
+
+[22:18] How do you judge doneess? Uh, I got three and a half pound lobsters and guest uh steaming time as the charts all stop at three pounds. Still the range of cooking times is pretty wide. Best Tom. Okay, here's what you do.
+
+[22:28] Par cook those sons of guns. Don't cook a lobster all the way through in a chill. Par cook the uh those things until they did. Uh like, you know, a couple of minutes, then crack them open, uh, break them apart, and then cook the different pieces of meat separately uh like in butter or in the I actually do it in their own juices. I save the juices when I break it and I bag them and cook them in their own juices.
+
+[22:49] I like to cook them at high temperature because I kind of like that firmer. I don't like soft, mushy lobster. Do you like soft mushy lobster sauce? You like firm. You don't even like lobster that much.
+
+[22:56] But when you like it, when you have it. Yeah, but you don't want it to be soft and mushy. You want it to have that traditional cooked texture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[23:04] Anyways. So and then it's much easier to judge doneness because you can just sit there and squeeze it with your fingers, pull the bag out, go and you squeeze it with your fingers, and you know the sucker's done. You know what I'm saying? Much easier. Much, much easier than trying to time out.
+
+[23:17] Because when you're cooking a lobster that large, uh, like, you know, and I've done like six, seven pound normally, and then like, you know, 25, 30 pounds. When you're doing something like that, it's not the bigger the lobster, the more impossible it is to um to cook the inside without absolutely hammering the outside. So you want to break uh the meat into smaller chunks, and then you can you can calculate it with uh you know C V dash or any of those other things. That's how I do it. Anyways.
+
+[23:43] Uh and it also makes your life a lot freaking easier. It just does because you pull the lobsters out. You can do the Nils Norin. Nils Norin ties a string around their tail, and then you know how lobsters have that uh they have that kind of pointy, like like bow sprit thing that comes out of their face right right in front of their eyes and like sticks out like a pointy you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, Jack, you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[24:04] Yeah, yeah. So what you do is it doesn't hurt them, so don't want any letters, please. But you like tie string around their tail, like right where the flare is at the smallest point where it like it flares, and then you go over their back and then around the pointy doodle, and you tie it back to itself. So you that first of all, it gives you a little handle, which is nice to pick up the lobster so you don't burn yourself. Yeah.
+
+[24:29] What do you mean? But after you No. Never done that. No, no, it would take forever to kill them. That's freaking cruel.
+
+[24:35] I don'm gonna do that. Anyway, so you take and you have you tie their uh nose to their and then and then uh their tail stays straight. So it's an alternative to the to the just shove skewers through its tail while it's alive, or or the knife kill and then skewer it and kill. So it keeps their tails straight, par cook them, throw them in ice water to stop the cooking, then you break them, and then you can take the meat separately and cook each piece to its uh to its own perfection. Yes?
+
+[25:00] Yes. But you gotta make sure to cook it enough on the par cook, depending on the thickness, like a minute and a half, two minutes. Uh otherwise, uh the claw is a gooey mess and you can't get it out. Gooey mess. You know what I'm talking about.
+
+[25:10] You know I'm telling you. You never read that article. What article? Um killing them softly. Well, maybe I'll maybe that's what my next maybe it'll be in my next book.
+
+[25:18] Who knows what my next book's gonna be about? Tomorrow. I'll have a meeting with my publisher tomorrow to talk about my next book. I'll tell you what, people, it will not be about cocktails. Uh David wrote it.
+
+[25:27] Let's take a quick break. Yeah. Okay, quick break. Let's do it. We'll come back with some cooking dishes.
+
+[25:55] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes dot com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show.
+
+[26:30] So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place. Molecularecipes.com.
+
+[26:53] And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout. That's promo code HERETICE. So again, check them out. Molecular recipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there.
+
+[27:07] Definitely write up your alley. So, Jack, is that your uh that's your mole that's your molecular music? That's my molecular music. Oh, yeah. I don't like it.
+
+[27:26] Oh, you don't like any molecular stuff. Why do you not like what specifically? I don't know. It's like annoying. Anyway, you should go there.
+
+[27:33] You know what you should give them? You should give them the promo code. Everyone should go and buy stuff on it and say Jackson. Say Jackson. You say change the name because we all hate molecular.
+
+[27:44] And they know it. They know it. Uh, but yeah, check them out. Tell them it was the song that really swung you in the direction of bink, bank, bank, bang, ding. That's like Jack Jack Molecular.
+
+[27:55] Sent to you by Jack Jack and Jackie Molecules. Um, uh a couple of shout-outs before we get back into the uh questions. Uh went to the um pre-opening of uh where Nick Nick Bennett, uh our longest employed bar, our bar captain at Booker Index, left us to go uh help start uh Porch Light uh with uh Danny Meyer Group. Yeah, went last night. Uh looks awesome.
+
+[28:21] Uh super congratulations out to Nick Bennett. So uh check it out. It's in that there's like an old warehouse building on 28th and 11th. They actually got hit with uh with Sandy, got flooded out, and they rebuilt the inside. They the concept of it is that um it's kind of like when you go there, it's kind of like hanging out in the porch, so you have drinks on the porch and you have some snacks.
+
+[28:40] Uh and they used all reclaimed wood from the obliterated basement on the inside. That's cool. So check it out. And congratulations to uh everyone involved with uh Porch Light Porch Light and YC. Uh also uh little uh self-plug here.
+
+[28:55] So my son Booker goes to a school called the Quad uh Preparatory School in Manhattan for check out this term, ready for this? Twice exceptional. Twice exceptional. Why? Well, like it's like you know, give it and take it away.
+
+[29:08] It's like smart kids who like are on the autistic spectrum. So it's like, hey, twice. It's not really twice, because it's kind of like like on either side, whatever. But uh he goes to the school, and I really like it a lot, the school, and they're having a um they're having a gala event, but that's not why I'm telling you about it. There is a silent auction, and one of the things that we're auctioning off, and I'm gonna make you come with me, Stas.
+
+[29:30] Sorry. I didn't tell you this. Uh yep, I am sorry. You get to meet Nastasia too. Is she getting auctioned off?
+
+[29:35] We're what I'm I'm auctioning a cocktail party. That's the only thing that people ever buy. I'm gonna bring you in on personal things too. You do all the time. Remember when I helped you move your freaking house in a freaking zip car?
+
+[29:46] Yeah, but I win forever for that. No, you're still. Nastasia rented Nastasia rented a tiny truck, by the way, and was like, oh, we're moving a couple of things, and she's moving from like a fifth-floor walk-up to another fifth-floor walk-up. Got a freaking zip car that was too small. It was not a good idea.
+
+[30:01] Such that we had to like we had to bungee cord ourselves to the freaking bed of it, along with her fake fire place. Whatever. I don't want to hear about it. Anyways, so uh it's a it's a wait, why can the public bid on this if they don't go to the city? It's a silent auction.
+
+[30:16] Because it's a silent auction. They can just go, they don't have to go to the gala to bid to bid on it. Anyone can bid on it. They don't have a part of the school, they don't bother it. They just have to want us to go, and they want to support this like small fledging school that's using very new techniques to try and um help kids who are very smart but can't be kind of uh dealt with in the normal uh school setting to get out their best potential.
+
+[30:39] And they're trying to spin this off into other, you know, not just in you know with the small school that they have, but spin these techniques off. Anyways, so uh here's what we're what you would get. So Nastasi and I show up and we make uh three cocktails for you for three hours. If you want snacks, you have to get the snacks. We're gonna show up, we're gonna make some nice cocktails.
+
+[30:59] You're gonna handle ingredients, and we're just gonna we'll show up. New York City, though. New York City. New York City. Listen to me, New York City.
+
+[31:05] Or Connecticut. I could do Connecticut. You could do Connecticut? Yeah. All right, but we have to bring all the crap.
+
+[31:09] Yeah, we guess we could drive all the crap out. All right, so like it, you know, if you're in the zone. Not Tri-Borough. I mean, not Tri-State. Not Tri-State.
+
+[31:17] She's like, I won't go across the Tri-Borough Bridge. Of course, no, we take Third Avenue in Willis. What are we? Paying money to get out of our own freaking city? No.
+
+[31:23] For those of you that drive up 95, you'll know what I'm talking about. So the the anyway, so we're having a cocktail party. They're auctioning it off. You can bid on it if you like. Uh, and the website is HTTPS colon forward forward.
+
+[31:36] W W dot biddingforgood.com. This is a lot of stuff. Forward slash breakthroughs. Breakthroughs. Plural.
+
+[31:44] Not just one breakthrough, multiple breakthroughs. What's it called? Double, double the knowledge or whatever. What do you mean? You'll have twice exceptional cocktails.
+
+[31:55] Whatever that means. Twice exceptional. Hey, we even give you a choice. Usually we do like a stirred, we do a shaking, and then uh, and then you know, a lot of times at carbonated we do. Up to 30 people, right?
+
+[32:06] Yeah, 30 people, three hours. We show up. You get to see Nastasia's vegan face. I'll bring some vegan stuff to have her eat it. You can see the face.
+
+[32:14] Right? Come on. Depends on how much they bid. Right? Nastashi will bring or not her her, you know.
+
+[32:22] A game. Her her A game, depending on how she feels in any particular any particular situation. But you know what? If someone from the radio show bids on it, it means it's a real honest to God food person, and so we're gonna have a good time. It's not just someone who happens to have a lot of money but doesn't care.
+
+[32:36] I think people who have a lot of money are fine too. Yeah, but not if they don't. We've done events before where they just bought it because they got strong armed into buying it, and we show up, and it might as well just be someone pouring beer and you know, and handing out white wine. Two. Those aren't fun.
+
+[32:52] I mean, I like beer and white wine like the next guy, but you know, I don't, you know, I don't need to, you don't need Nastasi and I to come pour that stuff. But if the price is right, we will. Uh okay. Uh David wrote in about coffee. Um, hey Dave, Nastasha Jack, how are you?
+
+[33:08] Uh I've just listened to the latest cast. I want a couple things about Dave's half mocking suggestion. We didn't really call it a cast. Cast. Cast is cast.
+
+[33:15] Yes, we are the cast. Short for podcasts. I like that. Oh. Oh, cast.
+
+[33:19] No, yeah, you're right. It meant podcast. By the way, we're going back to remember when Johnny was on and we were talking about coffee and sieves? Yeah. This is how far behind we are.
+
+[33:26] That's what this is in reference to. All right. Uh so you know, Johnny from uh the you know the Underground Cuisine Collective in uh in uh Wisconsin was here, and we were talking about using uh sieves in fractions of coffee to get specific because we're talking about grinders and how um you know the the the particle size distribution in a grinder is very important in the taste of coffee. That's what we're talking about. Uh uh, I wanted to add a couple things about Dave's half-mocking suggestion that Barisa should stack uh two or three lavs sieves together to get a uniform profile for the ground coffee.
+
+[33:59] Uh in the average or even fancy coffee shop, that's not practical, of course, but I know some people who compete in brewed coffee championships actually do one better. Last year I was at the World Brewers Cup, and I know that during their exhibition, one competitor described how they use four. They discard the top, middle, and bottom piles, and only keep the ones between the first and the second uh and third and fourth um um fractions. Other contestants picked the beans one by one before grinding them, or created their own water by dissolving various minerals into deionized water. Uh uh, Kevin Lewis cra uh craft cocktails at home.
+
+[34:33] Good book, go check it out. The rationale behind the sieves sieve stack. Now I'm thinking of Reggie Watts, the sieve stack, but it's you know, you can't say it on the radio. Uh, was that by having two controlled ranges of particle sizes in a single extraction, they were able to better control flavor profile, acidity extraction, and so on. Also, Johnny Hunter was right when he said that too uniform a particle size range makes for a comparatively less complex cup in the same way as brewing methods to keep relatively uniform brew temperature and or concentration due, e.g., reverse aeropress, French press uh or relatives.
+
+[35:03] A great, not just good cup is about carefully controlled over and under extraction. Oh, by the way, I have also put caustic soda on the tip of my tongue, no men omen, it seems. Cheers, uh, David, yes, it's Italian, so you got it right last time, right? David in Italian or David? David.
+
+[35:17] You said David A. Davidet, is that right? Italian? So I got it right last time, so it's Davide was right, so sorry I ruined at the beginning because it's Davide now. Anyways, uh good.
+
+[35:24] I love uh you know I love follow-ups like that. Don't you like when people send us follow-ups? Yep. So I was like, no, I really don't care. I don't care.
+
+[35:31] Um Mr. Gadwa uh regarding the CVAP. We didn't do this yet, right? Uh I pinged Dave on Twitter a few weeks back about CVAPs. CVAP is uh, by the way, was the uh oven invented by uh Mr.
+
+[35:42] Winston to help uh the Colonel Sanders, who is a real human being, uh figure out how to keep Kentucky fried chicken in good condition uh over the course of you know a a long time while it's sitting after it's fried, assuming that assuming they're not crushed in business and they have their frying like as fast as they can serve it, which is how you want. That's how Popeyes does that stuff. They just are frying stuff all the freaking time. You ever notice that? No.
+
+[36:05] Do you like Popeye's fried chicken? I haven't been there in a long time. Do you enjoy it? I think I do. Jack, do you enjoy Popeye's fried chicken?
+
+[36:11] I actually really like Popeyes, yeah. Popeye's is delicious fried chicken. I'm not trying to insult Kentucky fried chicken here. It's better. Okay.
+
+[36:16] Wyatt, what do you what are your thoughts? Both good. Uh, what's up, diplomat? Moved to Washington, get to get your diplomat, get your diplomat on. Um anyway, so it was invented for that, and the premise of it is is that uh there's a heater in the air, and then there's a a water, a Bain Marie water system, and that by adjusting the temperature that the Bay Marie is being held at versus the air temperature, you can very accurately adjust the humidity uh inside the cavity and the temperature, and that the main problem in holding foods is that uh the humidity inside there's not right.
+
+[36:50] So you adjust uh the difference in temperature between these two things, and if you do it properly, you can hold almost anything. And I've had actually hot tortilla chips held in it that stay crunchy. So and I've had you know meat in it that's held for a long time, I've had chicken that's held in it a long time. Technology does, in fact, work, but that's what a CVAP is, that's how it works. Uh but Winston, the guy that he's now like 90, I think he's finally stepping aside.
+
+[37:16] He's like 95 or 96 or something like this. He's a cantankerous dude. Cantankerous dude. Uh anyway. Uh anyway, it looks like this is going back now to the question.
+
+[37:25] It looks like Winston Industries sadly changed their minds on producing a home CVAP. So give me some Yukon Cornelius. I've changed my mind, Stas. No. She won't do it?
+
+[37:35] Dax does it all the time. I changed my mind. Anyway, so I'm passing the message below uh along for the benefit of Dave and the cooking issues listeners. I've been using the Cuisinart steam oven. Uh, and while this can turn out great results, it really makes me pine for a real CVAP or a combi.
+
+[37:50] The solution, of course, is for Dave to introduce the Booker and Dax 5,000 home combi oven. No, no, not on the radar, right, Stas? No. Not on the radar. You can make a DIY um CVAP, though.
+
+[38:01] It's not that it's actually not that hard. All you have to do is um you know, put uh an accurate control on your oven, which is a lot easier in electric oven, uh, and a put a water bath in the bottom and control the difference between a thermocouple that's held in the oven and one that's held in the water bath. I've done it as a test. You can do it. It takes some walking around and working with, but maybe someone out there, look, all you guys out there, you know, one of you just build it.
+
+[38:29] I've told you how to build it, and then just put the protocol up on one of the internet things. There might already be a DIY CVAP thing out there. And if they're not going to make one for home, then they're not going to get too mad if you build one. And the original patents for that thing have been gone a long time ago because they've been around for a bazillion years. So, you know, go ahead and do it.
+
+[38:44] You're not, you know, doing anything wrong or bad. Anyway. Anyway, okay. So, and by the way, he sends the uh he sends along uh a note from Winston Industries saying that we're not going to make one. So there you have it.
+
+[38:59] Anyways. Ellie writes in about fat and about ice. Dave, I understand that suet is beef fat from around the kidney area of the beef. The beef. Uh that is very tough to get a hold of here.
+
+[39:13] I forget where she is. Uh that is very tough to get a hold of here. Is there any uh reason regular beef fat cannot be used in its place, especially if it's rendered? Uh also thanks for the clear ice technique and liquid intelligence, that alone and how my old fashions look using it are worth the price of the book. Is there any sort of oh, this might be uh might be uh the the Ellie that's a dude.
+
+[39:32] This might be the other LE. Anyway. Uh also uh thanks for the clear ice technique and liquid intelligence, that alone and how my old fashions look uh using it are worth the price of the book. Is there any sort of shelf life or freezer life, I guess, uh on the clear ice that I've made? Uh best LA.
+
+[39:46] Okay. Yeah well, yeah, so in your freezer, right, uh bad things can happen if things stick out, like aromas can stick to the surface of the ice, and also during like repeated freeze thaw cycles, you can get some crap on the outside of your ice. The good news is the core of your ice is okay. So if you pull the ice cubes out, let them temper up, and then rinse them off a little bit, then they're good. They're good as new.
+
+[40:11] And in fact, if you go to Japan, uh the assumption is that the ice that they get, because they're getting big block ice cut is filthy, and so like what I watched them rinse their ice cubes before they used them, and I was like, why are they doing this? And then I asked someone who A speaks English and B is very familiar with Japanese bar technique. He's like, Oh, because the presumption is that the ice is dirty, and so they they rinse it off. So uh, you know, I don't know how much you'd have to get rid of, but once it's tempered and you give it a quick rinse, you could probably do one test by just if it's at home, just lick one of the cubes. And then if it has a flavor, that oh my god, Santa's little hipster is here, and he's dressed in green tights and a green beard.
+
+[40:49] Woo, Christmas is over, buddy. Never Christmas is never over. He keeps it in his heart, which I appreciate. Uh anyway. So you can go ahead and lick the ice cube if it's for your own consumption, and then rinse it up.
+
+[41:02] Okay, I have to I have a it's for his own consumption stuff. She's giving me the gross face. Here's another thing. Like when I cook, and I actually tell my like I I shouldn't say this, but so when you're cooking with extremely hot peppers, so we we're in situations where we take like habaneros and blend large quantities of habaneros, like a kilo of habaneros in a vita prep, right? And then we run it through a rotovap, and everything that it touches is poisonously hot.
+
+[41:29] Poisonously hot. Uh we've done it with Naga Jalokia's, even more poisonously hot, right? And so you have people rinse the stuff off and like clean it because some of the stuff can't go through the dishwasher because you you know you can't put it through the dishwasher. And so they're like, it's clean. And I'm like, oh, really?
+
+[41:45] Oh, really? And then you know what I do? Because here's it, here's what you gotta remember, people. This sound what I'm about to tell you sounds gross. However, people drink with things all the time and put it to their mouth, eat things with forks, put them in their mouth, and then you clean them and wash them, right?
+
+[42:00] So my test to see whether or not you've properly cleaned when I do something ridiculously hot, I lick it. I see whether it's still hot. If it's still hot, I know you didn't do a good job and you gotta rewash it. If it's not still hot, I just made it gross. Now you have to rewash it and make it clean because of the fact that I licked it.
+
+[42:14] But at least I know the next time you've washed it, it's going to come out uh being good. It's not going to affect the next product. So you you always have at least two washes, but uh at least this way you know. Anyways, back to the fat. Um so the difference between the fat, different fats uh from different parts of the beef have different uh fatty acid profiles.
+
+[42:39] So that internal non-muscular fat that's on the inside around is extremely hard. Uh and uh it's extremely high in the um in the fatty acids like uh that are longer chained and are um just hard as hell. And so they the actual characteristics of the of beef suet, real suet, i.e. that you can grate it into things that has a very high melting point, that it makes a certain kind of porosity and the puddings that that that it's being used in can't really be imitated by using other types of uh beef fat. But if it depends.
+
+[43:19] I mean, if you're just using, if you're using it and you know you're gonna render it anyway or you know, do something else anyway, then it shouldn't matter. But if you need the particular textural characteristics of suet, then you have to get the real thing. Sorry. Right? Anyway.
+
+[43:36] I don't know. Then I don't know what to say about that. Like the other stuff's just softer. What are you gonna do? Uh Brandon, I'm actually like like once I get through this, I'll be on this week's questions.
+
+[43:46] No, so maybe we don't have to do the captured shop. Well, but I still have questions from this week I haven't answered yet. Anyway. Uh that many from today. Brandon writes in, like, I recently got a big green egg.
+
+[43:56] I missed some from Twitter from last week, which I gotta find out. I recently got a big green egg which I can use as a smoker. I'm hoping to be use it in combination with my circulator to get the best from both techniques. If you were to do something like this for let's say, say ribs or pork shoulder, would you start in the smoker or in the circulator? What temperature and time would you um recommend?
+
+[44:15] Well once you put the smoke on it, it smokes flavor is going to stay whether it goes in the bag or not. It really it it all depends on like what's kind of the best uh what what your best workflow is. I mean I would probably circ the stuff out I would probably circ it out uh pull it out of the bags let it dry off uh substantially before you smoke it and and then smoke it for for flavor instead of for for doneess and then you can pull it out kind of um whenever it's done that's just kind of what what I would do do you say what do you want to do say what you wanted to do pork shoulder or ribs. Yeah you know what because the the fact of the matter is yeah I mean it it also depends on whether when you're smoking whether you care about getting uh you know if you're doing traditional techniques whether you care about that ring or anything like that. Most of the reason why people don't like um to pre cook things before they're going into barbecue or smoking I think are in general wrong uh wrong headed because you don't need to add a lot of moisture you're not removing a lot of flavor.
+
+[45:15] I think it's I don't know I think it's kind of like a knucklehead way to do it. So if you want to do a low temperature if you want the texture of low temperature cooked product I would probably and you want it smoked in a traditional thing I would probably cook it all the way out you know, like you would for low temp, so for for ribs, um, you know, it well depends. Like for let's say you're doing a beef rib, like a short rib. You know, for you would do low temp, you would do like 57 because you don't want it too rare. 57 for like I don't know, a couple days, uh, a little longer, cool it down, pull it out, unbag it, let it dry thoroughly, and then because you don't want it too moist because that's gross, then throw it in and smoke it until until it's ready.
+
+[45:57] But I'd probably do it that way. Um, that's how probably how I'd do it. Or you could, if you just want the smoke flavor, but you don't want the texture of something that had just been pulled out of a smoker on the outside, then you can smoke it beforehand. Not gonna kill you, not gonna hurt it. Anyway, uh Quinn wrote in.
+
+[46:11] This is a good one. We have time for this, Jack? Uh three minutes. Three minutes. All right, so I'm not gonna get to um shoot, I'm not gonna get to the koji stuff.
+
+[46:20] But I will we'll do Quinn. Quinn writes in. I've got a food safety question. You like food safety questions, Jack? Sure.
+
+[46:26] Yeah, all right. I've got a food safety question. I often make stock in my pressure cooker, putting protein and bones and vegetables in for a few hours. Uh I don't even do that, I'll do like an hour. I don't never do it longer than an hour in the pressure cooker at second ring 15 PSI.
+
+[46:39] Anyway, when I'm done, I strain the solids and let the stock cool. I am not a restaurant with an ice machine, so I can't really put the container on ice to cool rapidly. After a few hours at room temperature, uh, the liquid is usually cool enough to stick in my fridge without messing anything up too badly. I know this time spent in the zone, uh, that's the uh danger zone, is suboptimal, but given that the product was pressure cooked, I feel like this is fine. So my question is, uh I've forgotten to put my stock in the fridge after a few hours.
+
+[47:04] Uh in fact, left it overnight at room temperature. I'm not sure uh about using it as is, but I'm wondering from a food safety perspective, if it would be safe to use if I put the stock back in an empty pressure cooker for a few hours. Uh and I'm hesitant to throw out this beautiful stock, and I figure the chicken that went into the pot in the first place was teeming with baddies, which were eliminated by the pressure cooker. So another trip to the pressure cooker should return to the product to a safe product. Thanks for the show, Quinn.
+
+[47:27] Okay, look, huge controversy on this with uh Michael Ruhlman, who uh on his blog uh in I think 2011 um said that he basically leaves his stock on the stove for like a week and then just reboils it before he's gonna use it, right? And McGee came in and wrote that, hey, this is unsafe uh because um, you know, be because things can grow in it, and if you don't and McGee actually wrote about it in the New York Times in 2011. So McGee writes, uh, I'll admit to violating the guidelines of the cooling guidelines in my own stock making, though by a few hours, not days. When I cook a roast for dinner, I use leftover scraps and bones to get the stuff uh start the stock, simmer it while I cleaned up, take it off the pot, and heat it right before I go to bed. At that point, it's too much trouble to cool it, so uh it won't warm up the you know everything else in the fridge.
+
+[48:16] Instead, I cover the pot, leave it at room temperature, reheat it in the morning about eight hours later before straining, cooling, and refrigerating it, and my stock hasn't made me or my family ill either. And then the question is why is ruhlman survived? So he asked a food safety expert, why isn't ruhlman dead? And the food safety expert said, because Mr. Ruman boils the stock before he serves it, uh Dr.
+
+[48:34] Snyder was the guy who he uh any active bacteria are killed by uh holding the stock for a minute or two uh above 150 degrees, and botules and toxin is inactivated by 10 minutes at the boil. But just quickly reheating and contaminating stock won't destroy the active bacteria and toxins, and you can make people sick. And his point is you can actually grow uh anaerobic bacteria in the bottom of an unstirred stock pot. Anyways, so uh you have to kill the hell out of stuff, like boil the hell out of it if you want to want to do it um not do it that way. But here's the actual truth.
+
+[49:05] You're not doing it any of this way. You're cooking it in a pressure cooker. Pressure cooker, if you're pressure cooking it for like, you know, 40, 50 minutes, uh, you're actually wiping out at that point the spores. You've in essence canned it. Here's what you need to do.
+
+[49:21] Don't open the pressure cooker, right? So if you're gonna go to bed or whatever, just don't open the pressure cooker. And if new bacteria can't get in, everything on the inside of that pressure cooker has been hammered. It is dead. So what you do is is you take that pressure cooker, let it let it cool down uh to um you know zero pressure, then you can put it in cold water in your sink if you want to drop it even further and just let it cool down like that for uh a little while.
+
+[49:50] Then don't let it get too cold because then it kind of jelly up on you. But down when it's closer to room temperature, when you can put it right in the fridge, right? Open it up. Now you it's contaminated because you've let stuff into it. Now you strain it and then you can put it directly in the fridge without worrying.
+
+[50:05] That's the way to do it with a pressure cooker. In general, at home, if you don't have a lot of ice and you want to get within the window, you're kind of like it's two and two here because you're about to contaminate it more, but at the same time, you know, you kind of win in other ways. What you want to do is get the biggest widest thing that you have and pour your stock into a very thin layer. And that thin layer is gonna cool off a lot thicker than a stock uh sorry, it's gonna cool off a lot faster than uh something thicker is, and so you can get stock cool very quickly if you pour it out into into thin sheets uh and then uh do it. If you ever should need to cool something down really quickly, and then as an alternative, if it's out, you don't need to pressure cook it again for another hour.
+
+[50:47] Just bring that sucker back up to a boil, boil it for like 10 15 minutes, then uh strain it, cool it quickly, and get it in the fridge. I hope that helps. We'll try to finish the next ones on the second on the 200th uh anniversary episode. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[51:07] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[51:33] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Deer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Oh, you daddy.
+
+[0:35] Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. You got my head all twisted. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:56] This is Dave Arnold. Hello, you're listening to Hello, and welcome to a late. Oh, hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:05] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Tuesday. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:20] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues 100th episode. Live on the Heritage Radio Network! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Honor, host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. Alright!
+
+[1:36] Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday, live at Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn! Calling live at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. It's Dave Arnold of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the back of her birthday's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, here with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How are you guys doing today?
+
+[2:01] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking. Whoa! Nice. Wow.
+
+[2:20] Oh. Wow. Oh man. That's strong sauce right there. That's good.
+
+[2:27] Plus also. I have to thank Declan Christenberry, the intern here who put that together. That was pretty sweet. I don't even need to say it this week. This is the first week I didn't even need to say it.
+
+[2:42] I actually said it into the mic before I knew what was happening. Yeah, for listening. Because you can't see it, but the song was playing, and Dave thought his mic would come on at the time. It usually does. So I didn't started yelling and nothing happened.
+
+[2:51] Yeah, I punched into it. I was like the Hello! Punching into it. Wow. Well.
+
+[2:57] So uh this is our 200th episode. Apparently, uh champagne's gonna arrive. Oh yeah. Oh yes. And as you know, the surest way most of you know the many things, the many, many, many things that Nastasia hates.
+
+[3:15] What? Oh, just name it. You hate it. Yeah. Biscuits.
+
+[3:19] Puppies. But the one thing Nastasia does love, hey. We got Pow Pow here. Have a seat. Sorry, I'm late.
+
+[3:28] Oh, no problem. So the one thing that Nastasia actually does enjoy is champagne. I have to say. Is that true or false? Oh no, she didn't bring the shield.
+
+[3:37] That's alright. We'll get some from the restaurant. Jack said he'd get us some. Oh, yeah. Alright.
+
+[3:41] Here we go. Alright, so also we have some uh Just if you're talking to me, I'll be getting champagne. Oh yeah. Well well, how long is it going to take you? He's gone.
+
+[3:50] He's alright. He's already gone. And we have uh some delicious uh we have some delicious meats from the underground uh meats collective. What do we have here? Do we have uh they give us a list of what this is?
+
+[4:03] And then the other one is uh this guy. Yeah? No. Yeah. Yeah, what uh what uh what cheese did they send us?
+
+[4:11] Oh, and pickled beets, especially for you with your love of Jasmine, right? Okay. So uh Hello Pow, you got your mic here, you got your earphones on? How are you doing? I'm good, how are you?
+
+[4:22] Doing right, what are you up to? I haven't seen you in a long time. It's been a while. I live in Boston now. Yeah, it's a good town.
+
+[4:27] It's a good town. So but it's like it it doesn't really exist anymore, right? It's just been blanketed under. It's like Atlantis, but I was gone for most of February, so I missed all the snow. Yeah, it's good.
+
+[4:38] I mean, it's it's it's it's bananas there, right? Uh it's so I was gone for most of February, and I heard about all the snow, but honestly, when I got back, I was like, Oh, it's fine now. It's not fine. Why is everyone freaking out of it? I mean, I gotta like the fact that I mean, well, the guys up in Madison and like anyone we have that listens in uh Minneapolis or whatever.
+
+[4:56] Yeah, weak and puny, but you know, the mayor of Boston had to come out on the internet and say, you know, don't don't jump out of the windows. Do you see it? Like, because people are just jumping out of their windows. Did you see the guy doing a free f a freestyle swim in the snow? No.
+
+[5:10] It's pretty awesome. He didn't get very far, though. All right, listen. This is the 200th episode. Call in live to 7184972128.
+
+[5:18] That's 7184972128. You are mutilating this summer sausage. This is this is not. You're not the wrong knife. Yeah.
+
+[5:24] You're you're absolutely I have one. Oh, nice. Nice. And we have the pleasant Riz uh Ridge Reserve cheese. Nice.
+
+[5:30] We're having a pleasant little pleasant little 200 here. 200 is a freaking lot, Stas. Wait, tell everybody what you did last night. What did I do last night? You watched The Bachelor for the first time.
+
+[5:41] Okay, here's the deal. So I was I got caught in a snowstorm, actually. I couldn't make it back. I was supposed to cook dinner for the actually the fellow that makes the Sears all, like our factory contact in China on Sunday, and he uh Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, and he I couldn't make it because we spent like seven hours going what was normally a two-hour tour. Anyways, so uh we had to postpone it until Monday.
+
+[6:02] Stas like, well, we can do it Monday, but I'm gonna have to like turn on the bachelor. I was like, what? He's like, first of all, listen, where you come from, do you watch TV during dinner? Would you ever turn on the TV during unless it's Super Bowl? Super Bowl.
+
+[6:16] Uh or the news. I guess we can't watch the news. I don't know. But like we have someone coming from all the way from China to come over to the house for dinner there, right? You don't turn on the TV.
+
+[6:24] So then I had to record it for her, and then I had to watch it. Do you know that this show is is wretched? It's a horrible show. I know, it's terrible. Jack, do you like uh The Bachelor?
+
+[6:33] Thanks. Cheers. Oh no, no, I don't like it. Yeah. Right.
+
+[6:37] It's a horrible show. I'm sure that people like it. Stas likes it for one. I do. What is it that you like about it?
+
+[6:42] Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.
+
+[6:45] Cheers. Cheers, everybody. Uh, what is it that you like about that program? Oh, it's a train wreck. You saw.
+
+[6:53] Yeah, but why do you because it's it's interesting. Plenty of train wrecks. Plenty of train wrecks. My own life. I don't need I don't need somebody else's train wreck.
+
+[7:01] Thanks, Jack. Ooh, beautiful. What are we drinking here? We are drinking, we're drinking a prosecco. You know this one, Papa?
+
+[7:07] Yeah, sorry, we went prosecco instead of champagne. What elves? It's only bubbles. It's got bubbles in it. Okay.
+
+[7:12] So Aaron Morgan wrote in uh at cooking issues. Can you discuss orchata issues on the show? Insoluble settling settling to the bottom of my otherwise delicious beverage. Well, you got a couple of problems here. You're uh, you know, so what we're talking about here is not the like choof and nut variant, probably but like the rice variant or chata, the beverage.
+
+[7:29] Uh well, I'm presuming that you have a decent blender you can blend the hell out of you. At the bar, uh, you know, we had some people working on um orchatas and uh of course we cheat, we spin it the centrifuge that gets all the particles out, but you know, you probably don't have one. Just saying, probably not. So, like uh most people I think you just need to strain it through something a little bit finer, like a cheesecloth, and it should get rid of some of that stuff. And if you're if you're talking about that's grit, if you're just trying to stop the settling out of starches, well, then you're a little more SOL, you're gonna have to stabilize it uh with um with a stabilizer, because otherwise, I mean that stuff will probably settle over time.
+
+[8:04] Um the uncooked starch will settle over time, so you just need to need to stabilize it. Anyway, uh oh, it's David again, uh Tasanari, uh I saw he saw an article. This is hilarious. Do you remember back when I said that Dax spilled wasabi oil all over the kitchen and then got it in his eyes and was running around going, My eyes, my eyes? Well, they have uh someone in Japan made a f uh a smoke detector that I guess I don't know whether it's for people who are deaf or whatever, that sprays you with wasabi oil so that you get up.
+
+[8:39] Oh my god. And you're like, my what the hell? Like, why would you do that to someone as a way to I mean, like, wouldn't it like electroshock be better? Like at least that's over. Yeah, I guess.
+
+[8:48] Would you rather get zapped? No. You'd rather have wasabi oil sprayed in your eyes? No, if you're sleeping. If it gets in your eyes, then you like you feel it.
+
+[8:57] I feel like you would wake up in a bad mood. You'd wake, well, you'd wake up, you'd blink, and you'd run around screaming about like your eyes burning. I mean, the stuff's no look. I mean, I mean, like, look, admittedly, your house is on fire. So you need to get out.
+
+[9:10] But like, how many, how many times? I let's uh a brief poll. How many times have you guys had uh fire uh alarms, fire like detectors go off in your house? How many times? Oh, a ton.
+
+[9:22] Ton, right? Jack? How many times? Not that many. Like more than one?
+
+[9:26] Yes, more than one. Okay. And how many of those times was your house on fire and you needed to evacuate? Zero. Okay.
+
+[9:31] So that's how many times you would have been sprayed in the eyes with wasabi oil for no apparent freaking reason. Not a good idea. Um regarding the uh croissant variants we were talking about, I think last week, uh Timothy uh Helmuth writes in would not a pork rind croissant be a chichirason? What do you think? Chichirrason?
+
+[9:55] Yeah, I like it. Chichon, yeah? I told him that's impossible to say five times fast. It can't be done. All right, here's one for me.
+
+[10:03] I as a professional. So uh let's go back here. We have uh question in Hi, Dave, Jack, and Nastasia. Uh what are your favorite farmers' markets in New York City? I'm moving to New York City soon and would love to live in a neighborhood that has a good market within biking distance.
+
+[10:18] Cheers Pierre. Well, I mean, look, Union Square. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one.
+
+[10:25] That's the one that you can guarantee that you can get what you need, and if you can't, you can call the folks ahead of time and make sure that they bring the stuff that you need. It's there more days a week than any other. You know, you know. But the good news is is that Union Square is biking distance from pretty much anywhere between like like the 40s, even where you are, Stas, right? All the way down to where I am.
+
+[10:44] Like I have like when it's tomato season, I live in the Lower East Side. So it's about oh I don't know, 40 minute walk from where I live, and about like a 10 minute bike ride or something like that. So I have my bag specially tricked out with a hard internal shell to store tomatoes, and then I have like special like like lofted blankets that I like interleave in the in the bag and then have it like. And then you ride erect, he said. Oh what?
+
+[11:11] You ride erect. Oh yeah, I ride like straight bolt erect like I'm from Holland. You know what I mean? Because I don't want those tomatoes to get damaged. So like I ride like a nut job to get to the place to get the tomatoes because I don't bike for fun, people.
+
+[11:25] I'm getting somewhere. And then like, you know, but then on the way back, I you know, I am merely a machine that carries tomatoes to my house. And like any other thing that I do is incidental to that. So I have to breathe and my legs have to move, otherwise the tomatoes won't work. Dave, why don't you grow tomatoes?
+
+[11:40] I think I might. I have some property in Connecticut. But I there's this most people's tomatoes, look, I mean, I've eaten at the Union Square Green Market, I've gotten a a scadge of tomatoes there, and there's really two tomatoes that I would be willing to um go to extraordinary measures to get, and they're both by this one farmer who's got this great dirt in old Tapan, New Jersey, and there's hardly any farmers there because the land's worth too much. And so, you know, they're like a holdout, but like no one else can really start a farm there. And so I I like their Aunt Ruby's uh German greens and I like their uh their st you know, German stripes.
+
+[12:16] And that I mean they have other good tomatoes and other people make good tomatoes, but like that's kinda like that's the tomato when I think I want a tomato right now. That's the one that I'm going for. You know what I mean? All others are second and third. And anyway, and I'm not one of these guys, because I stupid to say this is the best tomato.
+
+[12:29] This is my favorite tomato on the earth that I've ever had. So someone could give me a tomato one day that you know hit me in the head with a baseball bat and be like, oh well, you're an idiot. You you've been thinking for the past, you know, however long you've been alive that you know what a tomato is, but in fact it's this other thing, but it hasn't happened yet. But that said, Union Square is pretty easy shot via subway. Does it say Brook doesn't say Brooklyn?
+
+[12:53] Some reason. All the subways are there. I think you have uh A, C E and some numbers and the L. Yeah, but then a lot of neighborhoods have like one or two a week, like Tompkin Square Park has uh like a fairly okay one, like uh like a couple times a week. What about up the one up by you, Stas?
+
+[13:09] I like it. Hell's Kitchen? 43rd and 10. Yeah. But Union Square is the one.
+
+[13:14] Jack, what about Brooklyn? Bring the Brooklyn home for us. Um there's a there's one in Greenpoint, the McCormick Park. I have to find out the name. Is it good?
+
+[13:22] Yeah, it's great. I used to go great when I was hanging out in Greenpoint. How many days how many days a week is that? Uh I will get more information. McGorlic Park, that's it.
+
+[13:31] McGorlic. Anyway. I hope this helps. But for those of you like for anyone that knows, like Union Square is the Mac Daddy of the Green Markets. Um and it runs on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays.
+
+[13:45] And that's the other good reason. It runs so many days a week. Now, not all of them are are are big, but like it runs all those days. Okay. Uh two.
+
+[13:54] Dear Dave and the cooking issues crew. How do you like this though? Now you're just crew. Crew. Uh I was hoping you could go over how to season stainless steel and keep it clean.
+
+[14:03] I always try to season my pans on the stove, but they inevitably end up with a yellow ring of sticky oil around the rim of the pan. Have you encountered this problem? Oh, hell yeah. Of course. Um have you encountered this problem also?
+
+[14:14] How do restaurants keep their cookware so clean? A lot of freaking elbow grease. Like it's really hardcore dishwashers or scrubbing the hell out of stuff, is how you you know, if you're gonna do it, is how you do it. Um I usually use steel wool on my pans to try and maintain them, but oftentimes this is futile as some black and brown spots seem to be burnt on so well that this doesn't help. Is this damaging to the pan?
+
+[14:34] Uh I seem to be able to handle cast iron seasoning cleaning, but stainless steel poses a much larger problem. Thanks so much. I think you've answered this question a long time ago, but I was hoping you could repeat it as I can't seem to find it. I'm working my way through the backlog. Oh my god, I can do that.
+
+[14:46] Imagine working your way through this backlog. Uh backlog and have only made it to about episode 160. Man, that's fortitude. Uh so I hope nobody has uh asked you this question in the last 40 episodes or so. Love the show, keep up the good work.
+
+[14:57] Tyler Simons, UC Davis Food Science. All right, uh Tyler, here's what I think. I just think you like it just takes an unbelievable amount of like scraping with the braces to get the to get the stuff off. I mean, um like a lot of times back when I was at the school at the FCI, like once a week, they would take all the pans out and then spray them with a very highly basic like oven cleaning solution and then like let it sit and then soak the stuff off like they were doing oven cleaning. Now, do I recommend that you spray like I mean, I don't know, like maybe you have kids around the house, like maybe that stuff is noxious.
+
+[15:33] Mr. Muscle Yeah. Do you but do you use that stuff anymore? Uh we do a little bit. Yeah, but it's like you use it like at the end of the week to knock the stuff off.
+
+[15:41] But like a lot of times our pots, like they go in for a heavy soak, and then don't use the don't use the cruddy well, it's not cruddy for what it's good for, but don't use the thin or the Brillo style thin guys. And the reason is they work really well when they're very, very fresh, but then you have to constantly pull and retuft them to get them, otherwise they clog with the own grime that you're getting out, and then you might as well be using something puny. I would get the um larger uh like the ones that look like they're made out of little razor blades, should like chore boy guys. And uh they come in copper if you're worried about scraping things, but don't I just get the stainless ones. Get the stainless ones, the other ones that kinda rust out.
+
+[16:18] But those ones that feel kind of like a hair net made of razor blades, like those guys once you soak, you s scrape the heck out of it, and you have to go over it a bunch of times. And as a last resort, I would use a basic kind of uh thing that eats everything away, but that's uh you know, that's kind of all there is. Another alternative, if you are gonna self-clean your oven, you can throw stainless steel, like a hardcore good stainless steel riveted pan into your oven on self-clean and just you know, because it's an even heat, so you're not gonna warp it out. Although I've never done that, because you know I've never owned an oven with a self-clean. You ever own an oven with self-clean?
+
+[16:50] I don't have an oven. I don't have an oven. Don't have an oven. I don't have a no. I don't have a kitchen.
+
+[16:57] No kitchen? No. Do you have like a hot plate? I have an induction burner that I don't use. I have a toaster oven that I use for frying.
+
+[17:04] What? Oh what? You have a toaster oven used for frying? Not at the appropriate use. This is uh well, how does it even work?
+
+[17:11] You just stick the oil in the toaster oven in like a cup, wait for it to get really hot and then throw like two french sizes in. I usually do dumplings, frozen dumplings, and then I oil the the tray. And I just close my eyes and put it in there and then I open the window in case it it ignites and my plan is to throw it out the window. Has it ever ignited it? Not yet.
+
+[17:31] It makes it's making sounds though. I almost ignite I almost caught my kitchen on fire today because uh, you know, I I built the I talked about it on the show, I built this coffee roaster, and normally my coffee roaster, like I can I have to crank it. So I built a motor because, you know I feel that I deserve to be able to walk away from my coffee roaster when it's roasting. So I have a worthy pop popcorn maker and I put a motor on it. Turns out I don't deserve that because someone wrote a question in and that we're gonna get to later, and I got so engrossed, like reading the article that they sent me that I totally forgot that I and so like I'm like that's weird.
+
+[18:04] I can smell coffee and it smells really dark roasted, and my hoods on. So something and I walk in, like the whole kitchen was like filled with smoke, and they're all like little black kernels of nothingness. Oh my god, it was awful. I had to literally, you know, once coffee gets to a certain temperature and it's roast, it just keeps on going like the pyrolysis. And so, like, it was just going and going, even though I turned it off, I had to put the doused to pan and water.
+
+[18:26] Nightmare. Nightmare. The inside total sludge. I haven't had coffee yet today. Whoa.
+
+[18:31] So yeah, so I'm in like I'm like champagne first, right? Champagne wishes, yes. Uh well, we're celebrating. I'll have coffee with lunch, you know. I'm uh I like to invert things.
+
+[18:39] I'm one of those guys, I'm not one of those guys we I can't have my dessert until after I eat my meal. Are you like that? Not at all. No? I have to have this very last.
+
+[18:49] Uh this is not the styles I know. I've seen you eat like 18 pounds of candy as an appetizer. I'm eating an almond croissant and alternating sips of coffee and this prosecco, so that's where I'm at right now. Jack, you are living the freaking dream, brother. Hey, speaking of living the dream, I now have a pickup truck.
+
+[19:04] How about that? Getting closer, getting closer and closer. More tomatoes in that truck. Yeah. All right, tomatoes, I got look, I got a Labrador, I got some forest land, I got uh a pickup truck.
+
+[19:14] I'm almost set. Very close. Shotgun. I need a shotgun and a uh and a pontoon boat, and then I'm good. Anyway, uh seriously, like what else do you need?
+
+[19:23] Nothing. I got an apartment in the city, a place out there, I got everything. I have everything you could ever want. All right. I don't know.
+
+[19:34] I'm curious. I have to wait until the show's over to figure out what it is. Okay. Dave, I purchased a Searsol and use it at my home in LA. Works really well.
+
+[19:42] Great product. Thank you. Question I have. I live and work in Tokyo and go home every few months. And I'm considering to purchase a second Searzole to keep at my apartment in Tokyo.
+
+[19:52] I can get one and a burns a matic in the US and bring it back with me, but would prefer not to carry a propane tank in my luggage. You should not do this. You should I just go ahead on record and say you should not put propane tanks into your luggage. Although I've said this on the air a bunch of times, like some of their rules are crazy, like that you can't bring uh the uh nitrous cartridges for whipped cream with you because every single seat is like has two or three of those uh of the CO2 versions in in the life vests that are underneath you. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:22] So the plane filled with compressed you know gas cartridges. Propane's different story, man. So yes, do not do that. Uh so when I search around in Japan, they have a butane slash propane mixed fuel canister um sold by Coleman. You know, Coleman's not really the manufacturer.
+
+[20:38] Coleman, like they license out their tank stuff, so like here, I don't know how whether I should get in this or not, but Coleman here in the U.S. tanks are actually made by Worthington, the parent company of Burns Mat. Whatever, you don't care. Anyway, it doesn't matter, nobody cares. Um so anyway, uh I see it uh as well as other Japanese camping brands such as Snow Peak, which are of high quality, but no propane only versions.
+
+[20:59] These canisters are squat, so seem equally sturdy to the U.S. ones. I also found an adapter that will connect the Burns Mag to these Japanese canisters, so all good there. Please let me know your thoughts on the butane slash propane fuel and whether that should be fine with the search all or will it cause problems with it, uh, e.g. with the mesh screen.
+
+[21:14] Um related note, I also have your liquid intelligence book. Very much enjoy both the well researched facts info as well as your writing. Thanks, Stas hates it. Stas will not read it. Uh yeah.
+
+[21:26] Uh I first come across your writing and cooking issues blog, so figured your cocktail book would be great. Thanks and best regards. Uh Leo Ishibashi, Tokyo, Japan, and La Canada, California. La Canada. Do you hear of La Canada?
+
+[21:37] Oh, La Canyada. Oh, La Canyada. La Canada. La Canada. Oh man.
+
+[21:43] A bunch of people in California are like crap on this dude. Bang. La Canada. Done. Anyways.
+
+[21:52] Okay. Here's my thoughts. As many of you know who have ever like had a corporate thing or a company, I cannot, under any circumstances, recommend that you use an adapter to attach a torch to another canister. I will say this on a strictly technical level, because I can't the reason I can't assess the safety, I can't assess anything. I can't assess any of it.
+
+[22:19] So I can't recommend, and in fact, I have to strongly urge anyone to not do it, right? That's just like my obligation as someone who makes things that have fire involved. I I have I have to tell you that. However, on a strictly technical basis, propane butane mixes should not hurt the screens in uh the searosols. Um if it actually is propane and not like the map gas stuff, which is like a different mixture, but the butane uh and propane shouldn't cause uh a problem um to the screens.
+
+[22:51] Uh however, I can't assess the safety of the rig with the adapter and the extra height and and or whether the neck see, like the series like the like Worthington uh and Burns and Matics specifically manufacture their torch like uh tank combinations such that if something dire happens to them, their failure mode is such that you don't blow up. And so I can't necessarily guarantee that that is the same when it's connected to a different canister via an adapter. I mean, I just can't guarantee it. So, you know, uh I always you know err on the side of going hyper safe, but from a strictly from a Willow Screens blowout, probably not. Yeah, fair?
+
+[23:30] Right. Okay. Did you am I gonna get in trouble for saying that? Am I right? Nope.
+
+[23:34] I I never know. Sometimes people are like, Why'd you say that, Dave? Anyway. Uh greetings from Madison. I'm sure you've heard about this by now, but just wanted to hear your reaction to this bit of news in in the quotes, the news quotes.
+
+[23:45] It's like your vegan face, the news quotes. Oh, someone's someone sent in a a uh have you seen this like cooking for vegans and other horrible people? It's this lady who has this like uh podcasting. No. But you should you should watch it because he you know kind of but she I don't cook for them though.
+
+[24:00] Well, I I know, but she just cooks for them but makes fun of them mercilessly the whole time. Anyways, um I'm sure you've heard about this bit of news. A study in nature. I tried to get a hold of the article, guys, but like I couldn't because the person whose password I steal to get like access to real articles. I couldn't get in touch with her uh to for the article, but yeah, well, I'm not gonna call my mom out that I'm stealing her.
+
+[24:22] Thank you, Stas, for calling my mom out on the air as allowing me to steal her password. She's like all nervous about it. She's like, Don't tell anyone that you say, good job. We can believe that. Yeah, sure.
+
+[24:34] Uh a study in nature apparently has shown uh emulsifiers to be an issue in obesity and other healthy issues like chronic colitis. Uh here's the link. I haven't paid for it to read the full study. It looks like the researchers may have found some issues with carboxy methyl cellulose CMC or like cellulose gum and polysorbate 80. Uh of course, Time magazine and others have picked up on this and are implicating any and all emulsifying ingredients, including carrageen and xanthan and other gums, et cetera.
+
+[24:59] Pretty much my question is Is there any way of stopping science writers from being so bad at their jobs? Uh no. No. There's really not. And in fact, um, you know, I haven't had a I haven't had a chance to read the full article yet.
+
+[25:14] However, I read um some of the rebuttals online to this article. So here's what happened. They, as normal, uh the the researchers, uh, and there's you know, they seem to be very, you know, they're good research. It's in nature, which is one of the best magazines like there is in terms of peer-reviewed science journals. But they started with the hypothesis that um th that a lot of problems with um what they call metabolic syndrome, in quotes, whatever the hell they mean by that, but like things leading to obesity and uh like you know prop problems with uh with with your metabolism down there have to do with a disruption of the ability of the mucus line, like that's not mucus lining, uh, you know, down there to prevent the the bacteria, the naturally occurring and you know generally beneficial bacteria in your gut from being in direct contact with your uh with with your membranes, right?
+
+[26:07] So what they did was is they said, well, they posited that um emulsifiers maybe because they are surface active and can act uh you know, sometimes like detergents, but they have surface active properties, that somehow these are dorking with the uh you know, the the mucus uh you know layer that's you know that's generally beneficial and healthy, and therefore uh warping and or messing with uh the microbiota in your system, right? That's the theory. So what'd they do? They took some rats, a couple different kinds of rats, ones that were um uh predisposed to having problems and ones that were normal with the co-wild types, and they fed them, and I think this is what I I heard one per s either water as their who what her as their as their beverage of choice, or one percent solutions of carboxy methyl cellulose in water, or one percent solutions of polysorbate eighty, and lo and behold, the ones that were fed large amounts of polysorbate eighty and carboxy methyl cellulose, they had some problems, right? Uh but I haven't got a chance to read the article, so I can't comment on it.
+
+[27:07] But like all the things saying that emulsifiers might have caused the problems, they tested two specific, as far as I can tell, they tested two specific ingredients, uh, one of which carboxy methyl cellulose is extraordinarily thick, depending on which one they use, very highly uh viscous stuff at one percent. And so like part of the argument was that um part of the argument in one of the rebuttals was look at there was an increase in um there's an increase in mucus destroying uh enzymes in the guts of these rats. And of course there would be because you're drinking mucus. You know what I mean? Like you're like carboxy methyl cellulose at one percent, unless they had a very thin version.
+
+[27:43] I mean, I have to read, I don't know. In other words, I'm in the dark. What I'm not in the dark about saying is is that it doesn't seem like this one study is uh you know, says anything about emulsifiers in general. And it's one of these things where people are like, oh well carboxy methyl cellulose, which is a modified cellulose product, and polysorbate eighty, you know, which is another, you know, the synthesized thing. Well, what about less than?
+
+[28:04] What about eggs? No one's like, well, eggs will wipe you out and give you all this stuff, right? I mean, no one's against those things as emulsifiers. We eat emulsifiers all the time, all the time from natural sources and from you know uh added process sources. So there's a I need to do a lot of research.
+
+[28:20] There's a lot of hooha around it, but you know, uh short answer, no. No way to stop people from writing bad stuff because it's very easy to say emulsifiers are bad, put something out, and especially with ob when obesity is involved. Like whenever you have obesity involved or like bowel problems involved, people like are looking forever for w, you know, why why am I having this problem? Why are we having this problem? So if you could tack it on something, man, it's just gonna blow up like wildfire and say, no, you can't stop it.
+
+[28:49] Wish you could. Uh also, this Keith wrote that. Also, uh made your hops tincture recipe. Only cold infusion since my whipper isn't rated for hot applications, and made grapefruit gin hops cocktails, done some hops kombucha, and had hops candy. Hops candy.
+
+[29:03] Hmm. I think it'd be good. Depends how much. Any other good culinary uses for hops you can think of? Hmm.
+
+[29:10] I don't know. Hey, I actually have a caller on the line. You want to hold that? Yeah, sure. Caller.
+
+[29:15] Caller, you are on the air. Welcome to the 200th episode of Cooking Issues. Hey, congratulations. Thank you. Hey, this is Stephen Benfinger.
+
+[29:24] Uh, I I'm uh I've called like two other guys, but it's been a while. Um but I had a quick question about uh about a like I'm a home brewer. So it's funny. You were saying something about hops, so I don't have to say about that. Wait, but uh you cut out for a second.
+
+[29:39] What your home brewer, and I was talking about hops, then I and then I I missed a sentence. Oh, I was just saying, I mean I'm interested in in hearing what you have to say about that. Um I've had some hops that are pretty delicious. But um my question is I'm not going to be uh I'm also a med student, and I'm actually trying to do five gallon pulled press crop. Um and I want to have it um with beer gas uh CO2.
+
+[30:08] Uh but I want to try and make it but it has a um like art essentially, but it doesn't have uh in it so that it can go bad. Uh and I wanted to know what you what you thought of that and how you would go about it. You're cutting out a little bit, but let me see whether I can piece together what you're saying. You're gonna make a five-gallon batch of cold uh cold brew coffee, right? Yeah.
+
+[30:32] Okay. And you you want to put beer gas through it, but do you want it to be slightly carbonated or do you want to go with straight nitrogen? I think I prefer it as straight nitrogen, but I'm interested to see both, to be completely honest. I mean, the good news about carbon dioxide is that carbon dioxide is gonna provide a lot of the kind of bacteriostatic stuff. It won't wipe out yeast, obviously, but like it's gonna have some anti uh spoilage effects on it.
+
+[30:58] Uh but it's gonna taste carbonated then. There's no way around it, you know. Um whereas I don't think, for instance, like what would be delicious would be nitrous. And I'm not saying that since you're a med student you can get a hold of nitrous, but I'm telling you, as a med student you can get a hold of nitrous. Please don't uh abuse the nitrous.
+
+[31:17] By the way, the vast majority of people you can't really OD on nitrous. The way you kill yourself with nitrous is you put a mask on and you pass out with the mask on your face, and then you don't have o enough oxygen to and you and you asphyxiate yourself. That's how you die with it. So, like, you know, like the the you know, the classic bag huffer is not going to take themselves out this way. But uh n nitrous, uh nitrous is uh great uh for pushing things and for making things really creamy and bringing kind of body back to uh coffee beverages.
+
+[31:44] I use it in coffee beverages all the time. And you can get small uh med tanks of it and you can I know this from experience you can attach them to corny kegs uh and you can pump out with nitrous. Now I don't know because I've never studied it because I never tried to do it for long term storage I don't know if nitrous has any of the same kind of uh bacteriostatic properties that um CO2 does. Now another thing which I think you alluded to is that you could just add crap to it to kill stuff right um so most of the things that you add that kill things in you know they uh I'd have to go look because uh Piper was doing all the research on that on like the little bit of uh benzoit and the um but you can kind of taste that crap you have to use a small I completely agree yeah and and actually when I when I make beer the all you do is is make sure that you have a completely sanitary practice so you're reducing the number of bacteria that actually go into the end product. So what I was thinking I don't know if coffee and the acidity if it would actually uh bacteria but I'm not I'm not a hundred percent sure.
+
+[32:54] Well I know that look I mean clearly if you've ever if I'm presumably you as a med student have experienced a cup of coffee that's been on a desk for two weeks. So you know that you know that things can grow on top of coffee. But in general they're they're molds. So it's like the molds in the yeast are the things I think you're gonna have to worry about. So you just have to make sure that whatever environment you have is not um is not conducive to those things growing.
+
+[33:24] And so I don't like I don't know if like a if uh you know a nitrous environment or a pure nitrogen environment. The other thing is like would it hurt it? Like if you if you kegged it, right? You can kill that stuff at a fairly low temperature, but is that gonna kill your flavor to heat it up to the temperature where you pasteurize out and kill your your yeast and molds and stuff? Because that's what's gonna get you, you know what I mean?
+
+[33:44] Right. And and I was wondering at refrigeration temperatures if I would even have an issue with that. Because yeah, I've definitely seen stuff grow on coffee, but with the acidity and with the low temperature and things like that, I was curious if I would be able to get away with it. And that's the other reason why not adding milk because I know that I'm gonna have bacterial issues with that. Well, if you're gonna keep it in the fridge, I mean, I would love to have someone who has more experience with like long storage of of uh cold brew, but um, I think you're probably gonna be okay.
+
+[34:11] I mean, how fast can you drink five gallons of coffee? Well, I have a lot of med students that come over and study with me, so probably pretty quick. Yeah. Uh I would say you're fine. What do you what do you guys think?
+
+[34:21] Okay. I mean, I don't know. Look again error. What? Trial and error.
+
+[34:25] Well, I mean other words, like I I you know, I don't know what's gonna grow. I think in general, something like that, I'm I I'm fairly confident in saying that it will become unpleasant before it will kill you. And so uh, you know, I mean I believe that. Yeah. And so uh again, I would love for someone to correct me and point out where I'm wrong, because I don't want to steer someone in safety advice in the wrong direction, but I wouldn't worry about it.
+
+[34:49] But I would try to get a hold of some nitrous to push that stuff through. I think you will be pleased. Okay, I'll g I'll give that a shot. And I think actually uh nitrate will well it's considered anaerobic, correct? So uh any aerobic bacteria.
+
+[35:05] Is it? Uh I don't know how available the oxygen is and I don't think it's very available. I mean, it because it it only becomes available like in cars when you're combusting it. You know, I don't think it's generally oxidizing. Uh you know, I've stored stuff with nitrous for a long time and I don't get oxidation in in fatty things, for instance, in whipped cream canisters in my fridge for a long time.
+
+[35:25] They don't they don't, you know, get those kind of oxidized uh flavors. Remember though, when you're doing um when you're doing the nitrous, what I would do is attach it to the r the uh wrong side, attach it to the uh liquid draw just for the bubble through the bottom. Yeah. And then pull pull the uh so corny kegs for those of you that haven't had one before, have a pull ring uh safety vent on the top. Uh you have to make sure it reseeds, otherwise they can be kind of touchy, especially on old used ones.
+
+[35:55] But just you know, ps vent it so uh and then bubble through the bottom, so you're forcing and bubbling all of this uh, you know, uh stuff out of the coffee into the atmosphere, then let it go, then do your uh hard shake to nitrous carbonate, and then it should push fine and you can push it whatever pressure you want. Okay, excellent. And and um uh one more one more comment. Uh the only uh with the nitrous, the only thing I'd so you said that you were how uh available the oxygen was? I'm just curious if there are any bacteria out there that can actually metabolize nitrous.
+
+[36:28] I don't think so. Nitrous? I don't think so. I've never heard of anything. I mean, look, CO2 not only is the oxygen not like, you know, gonna get it's it also like it itself, its presence is is, you know, harmful to many beasties.
+
+[36:43] You know what I mean? So whereas I don't know about nitrous. I mean, I it's uh it's not gonna support aerobic growth. I'm fairly confident in saying that. Uh obvious I I mean I'm a hundred percent confident saying that, but I don't know that it has any beneficial destructive properties to things the way CO2 does.
+
+[37:00] Right, CO2 is bacteria title and and nitrous might not be okay. Excellent. Uh would you like me to post any pictures uh on like tweet them out if you already do it? Yeah, tweet them on over. I love that stuff.
+
+[37:12] Love seeing things. Sweet. All right. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
+
+[37:16] Thank you. All right. Oh, taking a commercial break, coming right back with cooking issues. Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show.
+
+[37:31] So, here on the break to tell you about molecularecipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[38:13] Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place. Molecular recipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code HERITIGEG at checkout. That's promo code Heritage.
+
+[38:31] So again, check them out. Molecular recipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley. That's the Jackie Molecules.
+
+[38:41] Jackie Mulley music right there. Jackie, do like Jackie Molecules says, and go to molecularecipes.com. Jackie Molecules. You're gonna start a band, you're gonna be the front man, you're gonna be Jackie Molecules. Definitely.
+
+[38:53] In the molecular band. That's a great name. Yeah, Jackie Molecule. All right. So uh finishing out uh the uh thing about hops.
+
+[39:02] Keith had was saying that he couldn't do the hot h uh hops tincture with the um so what I do in my hops tincture is I do a hot one first to extract the bitterness, right? And then I do a cold one that gets more of the aroma. So I get kind of like the similar, you know, similar to do you know, similar to like how you make beer if you're gonna, you know, um add hops afterwards. So um good news for you is that all of the ISI whippers, assuming you have uh one of the professional ones and not the white ones, the ones that are stainless, um, they're all fine with heat. The ones that are that are are insulated, they say they're for hot foods.
+
+[39:39] It's not that they're stronger, it's just they're insulated so that they keep temperature longer. And in fact, they're a detriment to you when you're trying to do hot um work because the heat doesn't transfer from the simmering pan as quickly as it would with the um uh you know, as it would in a regular one. So assuming you have an actual EC branded unit and not an off brand unit, you can go hot. So just don't worry about it. I mean, like I saw when I was in Austria, I saw the tests on the on their units when they actually hook them up to like like large amounts of pressure and blow them out, and there's like a the bottom indents first, and then uh then all sorts of untoward things happen to it before it ruptures.
+
+[40:21] So there's a lot of safety involved in it, regardless of what you may have seen when I put a blowtorch on one when I was doing that nachos thing, which I don't recommend. Remember that? Yeah. Remember how angry that guy was? I wasn't there.
+
+[40:29] You didn't go to that shoe? You didn't go anyway. So like, you know, what uh I kept on saying that I might blow up the guy next to me, and he was not happy. He was not because the guy was just trying to write something about hip-hop. He was trying to write about hip-hop or sneakers.
+
+[40:45] At complex. First week features at complex. And so the guy is like literally like, I guess, because they did what are they? They have hip hop, they have sneakers, what else do they do? Hey Jackie Molecules, what do those guys do besides like hip hop and sneakers and first week feast, you know?
+
+[40:58] That's about it. No, I don't know. It's a it's a website, and yeah, that you pretty much nailed it. Yeah, you know what? Like, I was trying to explain to Dax like old, old hip hop from when I was a kid, and like versus like the stuff that started coming out like um in the late, late 80s and early 90s.
+
+[41:15] I was like, it was so much more innocent. It's just like, you know, my sneakers, my sneakers, my sneakers, my sneakers. And he was like, and so now he thinks that's like an actual rap song. I was like, no, it's just like, you know, my sneakers and my tracksuit. Like that's what was important back in the day, you know.
+
+[41:28] I'm teaching a wine class at the end of this month, and it's called Maps on Raps on Maps, and it's taking the idea of the concept of terroir, and how can how is a wine supposed to express where it comes from, and using hip-hop as the analogy because we know where all of these hip hop artists are from because they announce it over and over and over in their music. So I'm taking that format from taking it apart and teaching it uh as a way to introduce the idea of terroir. So where are you where are you gonna teach this? Uh so a friend of mine and I are putting together a wine festival in Boston called BTG by the glass, and it's uh taking place in Kenmore Square in Island Creek Oyster Bar, and then actually at the restaurant that I am at right now, which is Rebelle in Brookline. Nice so yeah it's a it's a weekend of uh fun forward thinking seminars uh followed off by a sherry salon and then the next day we're doing like a smaller smack down brunch at Rebelli.
+
+[42:22] And yeah for those of you that have not uh hung out with Somaliers don't start like this don't start an awful bunch. Well it's not that they're awful it's just like if you can't listen you gotta roll hard when you roll with uh Samalias they're crazy like there's n like bartenders think that they're a hard drinking crew but somaliers are like bananas am I right? Uh probably yeah this nutty hey Dave so I have April on the line that wants to say hello real quick and then a question after that on another line. Cool howdy Hey Dave How you doing I'm calling from Charleston West Virginia I'm doing great and I hear you're uh celebrating your 200th anniversary episode anniversary that's awesome. Yeah thanks just calling for congratulations or do you have a question for us?
+
+[43:09] That is primarily the thing um I love that giving a little shout out to you that's nice I appreciate it. Thanks April what's what's it like down there now? Do you have snow down there now or are you good? Oh she gone already what's it like down there now? Did it have a snow belt going all through there?
+
+[43:28] I don't know. We have another call my grandma was away in Virginia. What uh caller you're on the air hey congratulations Dave again um this question's more so about uh creativity and uh when you're you know I have liquid intelligence it's uh it's excellent and I love it and uh when you're looking at you know solving problems when you're looking at you know coming up with the ideas how does that start you know like when you're saying do you start with the alcohol do you start with the problem or do you work backwards or you know how do you approach creativity in general? Well I think it's a good question any any and all of that stuff so um you know uh like a lot of things come up because someone will say hey you're doing an event with X, Y or Z product I'm like really okay and then you have to figure out something that you like with it. Or it can start with um it can start with uh you know I have a particular thing like I don't think gin and tonics are as good as they could be and then you start working on that.
+
+[44:28] Or it could be um a lot of times you know when when you're working you notice um little differences that happen when you change a recipe and then you exploit that and push that in a direction. And then sometimes it's like I'm walking down the aisle in a in a store and I'm like I have no idea what this tastes like I'm gonna buy it and then I'm gonna figure out like what this can do that that I f I find interesting. Or other things are like problems like um I don't like a lot of uh a lot of tea drinks because of the stringency in the back so how can I mitigate that using knowledge I already have so it's kind of it's everything the the important thing is to kind of always approach approach things um like in a problem solving manner. Very rarely are you able to wake up and say I need to come up with some new crap today and then you can come up with that new crap. It's more uh it's more like um someone will present something to you and once you go down the step of kind of analyzing what you have and where you need to go that's when you kind of figure out new ways uh to get there.
+
+[45:32] Or if someone shows you something if you have enough experience so with um with um rapid infusion with the uh with the EC with the nitrus you know it's because that's that's a great technique. Oh thanks well somebody sh you know somebody sent me a video where he was using carbon dioxide in a soda bottle to inject marinade under pressure into uh into chicken strips the guy's name was mr fizz I believe on YouTube and um uh you know but looking at it you know in my mind I saw the exact kind kind of an exact um you know analog to what happens in vacuum infusion and so uh you know for me it was like oh because I was just I was looking at that trying to figure out exactly what's happening and then you can cross so it's a it's about it's just about um paying attention keeping track and like following things in an analytical way it's very very very rare that you're just like I'm gonna come up with some new crap what is it in fact I've tried to do that all the time it doesn't work. I'm like I need a new technique what I ask people I'm like give me some problems I'll fix them. But you know well as a as a chef you know I uh I go through and you know you look at things from the past you look at you know you you try to think of future things and uh you know I'm trying to think you know systematically put together uh thoughts on creativity and thoughts on where ideas come from and for me it's kind of a it's always a process of everything that you know you see taste here but I just didn't know if you had a a method or technique or you know it's like uh I've been to uh Booker and Dax and enjoyed cocktails there and some of the things are just mind-bendingly awesome so just want to say thanks a lot and congratulations. Oh thank you and you know what you know it's a good movie to watch I mean no one can accomplish it because me, he's like the best at at this kind of stuff.
+
+[47:18] But in terms of organized uh creativity, remember that El Boole movie that we watched? I can't imagine wanting to watch that movie if you were not a cook. Yeah. But if you were a cook, like watching the way that those guys just kind of like very methodically tackle being the most creative cooks, like it I thought was really interesting. I like left and I was like, I'm a schlub.
+
+[47:42] You know what I mean? Like, remember that? I left, I was like, Stasm, man, we're schlubs. You know what I mean? And then but but I think it's good to watch just um, you know, we can't, you know, obviously, you know, very few people can attain like uh because the structure and the organization that he has around um kind of codifying and and and being able to capitalize on the creativity of the people around him.
+
+[48:05] That's also super important. That's I think why one of the reasons that Wiley was so uh successful, is so successful rather, what what he does is that you know he'll break a you know, he'll break a stick over your head if you don't record what you do because then you can't repeat it. It's wasted, you know, and it's wasted work. So I think it's a good thing. So I have one more caller and we are wrapping up, so it's no jeebus.
+
+[48:28] Yeah. All right. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, uh, thank you. Taking my call, Dave.
+
+[48:33] Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Um, I had uh was curious about using map gas with the Sears all. I'm like, uh what's the uh I haven't really I was looking online, I didn't really see much about that. Well, a couple things with map gas.
+
+[48:47] So m map gas, or actually map pro, uh has a couple of problems. One, uh the tanks are the wrong size, so for safety reasons I can't recommend that you use uh map gas. I actually got a combo with the TS eight thousand that had a sixteen point nine map gas tank, which is why I'm asking. Whoa, really? So it's it's a fat map gas?
+
+[49:09] Yeah. Those guys are worthy and holding out on us. How long ago do you want to do a link because it's from the home depot? Yeah, how long ago did you buy the Searsol? Um, I got it from a pre-order.
+
+[49:18] Okay. Your screen will undoubtedly burn out. This that Searsol is not designed to have uh map gas, and that extra like couple hundred degrees that can hit that screen will burn out that that rear screen. We're working uh like look, we're not approved on uh map gas. We're working on a rear screen that will withstand it, uh that will withstand map gas.
+
+[49:46] Um and we theoretically, Stas am I right? We might sell the the map gas rear screens. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, once we feel comfortable with the unit handling map gas, then we would have to also sell a foot to allow you because most people I think only have access to the like the skinny map gas.
+
+[50:05] We would have to sell a foot to make it so that I feel that it's safe to use it. 100%. All right. Well I use it with the propane, and it's uh amazing uh amazing device. Well, thanks so much.
+
+[50:16] I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. All right, and I guess Jack's saying we're wrapping up. I'm gonna have a say your goodbyes. I'm gonna have a bite of Johnny's summer sausage.
+
+[50:24] Johnny Hunter's summer sausage. Do you like this? You haven't this? And thanks for joining us. Two hundred episodes of Cooking Issues.
+
+[50:31] Thanks, Pow Pa. You're welcome. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[50:50] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:29] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly really late this time, though. Roughly 12. Roughly, yay, 1245, 1250, 1255. Depends on, you know, whether someone's coming in to record after us. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasha, the hammer Lopez, and Jack Insley in the engineering booth.
+
+[0:54] How are you guys doing? Good. Good. I'm all alone back here. Oh my.
+
+[0:59] Is that why you didn't have the time to put the Jackie Molecules on? Yeah. Or is that gonna go on during the uh Jackie Molecules? Call in your questions too. Cooking.
+
+[1:08] Not maybe not cooking. Anything, right? Anyway. We'll take them all. We'll take any questions.
+
+[1:12] I mean, look, there's some questions that we'll probably refuse to answer, but test us out. Call in to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Do you guys remember that like for the first year I could not remember the number? Yes, I was just thinking that in my head.
+
+[1:26] Yeah. And you guys would have to literally, like I couldn't remember the number, and they uh Jack and or Nastasia would have to write the number on a piece of paper. Yeah, and hold it in front of my face. I had like a mental block on the telephone number. Crazy.
+
+[1:39] Maybe, you know, it's like, well, I don't know if I'm sticking around. I'm not gonna not gonna commit this number to memory. Yeah. I think so. Wow.
+
+[1:46] Wow. You haven't committed my number to memory. That's because it's typed into my phone. Like I I know how to know yours. What?
+
+[1:53] I know yours, though. Oh, me, me. Well, you're better than me, me, my memory. Dave, how many numbers do you have memorized? Yeah.
+
+[1:59] I have like the my like the number I grew up with in junior high, high school, and college. Wow. My my uh yeah, my my mom's house number. It's still the house. It's the same house.
+
+[2:10] Yeah, okay. Yeah. And the the first telephone number I had in New York City, I remember, 21266 typo. Awesome, right? Nice.
+
+[2:18] Two one two six six six typo. I remember I remember numbers that existed prior to like when your phone stored all the numbers. You know what I mean? So like I remember very early cell phone numbers. Like my cell phone number, uh, it's been around a long time.
+
+[2:32] My wife's cell phone number, and her sister's cell phone numbers have been around forever. So I remember those. My dad's house. Yeah. That's it.
+
+[2:40] That's pretty much it. I don't know my own house number. I don't know any of that stuff. I have to ask Booker what my house number is. But I do know the number of the Heritage Radio Networks call in line.
+
+[2:50] And that is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So you got any good uh cooking things happened to you this past week? No. Nothing?
+
+[3:00] Mm-mm. No? No. You didn't cook anything? You haven't cooked?
+
+[3:04] Yeah, every night, but nothing worth talking about. Wow. That's kind of depressing. No, I mean, you know, I make food. Last time I made eggplant farm, like it's nothing.
+
+[3:13] Eggplant Parm is not is not nothing. Did you make it from scratch? Yeah. So you well, how do you prepare the eggplant? What do you do?
+
+[3:19] Oh, I just salt it so it sweats and then How long? Uh not long because it's usually late. Do you press on it? No. You know what?
+
+[3:27] No. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know why? Okay, look.
+
+[3:30] The salting, right, starts drawing the liquid out, right? But you still have a really spongy, like a spongy thing going on with the eggplant. So when you squish the hell out of it, well, the salting also helps you squish a little bit. When you squish it, you're you're getting rid of some of the porosity that's gonna lead to the increased oil absorption. I don't put oil in the pan.
+
+[3:46] What the what whoa whoa, you uh what? I just uh heat the pan and then put the eggplant in there and like bread isn't no. So this is not what I would consider eggplant plant. No, no, it wasn't breaded. I didn't have time.
+
+[3:58] This is the whole That's why I said nothing interesting food wise. This is more like an eggplant casserole. You say eggplant parm, I'm like, holy crap, she's gotta press the eggplant, gotta bread the eggplant, gotta fry the eggplant. No, but it was the bachelor finale last night. No, how how'd that go?
+
+[4:14] Good. Did he choose the lady you wanted? Yeah. You watch The Bachelor, huh? Yeah.
+
+[4:20] Yeah. It's like Christmas. It's like it brings people together. Please do not compare The Bachelor and Christmas. Please do not compare.
+
+[4:27] You didn't want you didn't feel compelled once you saw it last week. I felt compelled to never see it again. I felt compelled to never see it again. We did. You watched The Bachelor too?
+
+[4:34] Well, how it happened was last week. Did we talk about this on the radio? All right. So we had the maker of the Sears All and the soon-to-be mailed steak decorator, and then the next two products actually, which you'll hear about in the next couple of months from Booker and Dax. You know, our manufacturer, I had him over at my house, and we made him use the Searsol on a st on the prototype steak decorator, by the way.
+
+[4:58] Because this guy didn't understand why he was making this product. We ever mentioned this on the air? No. Charles, the the name of the guy is the project manager at the manufacturer we use, was like, I don't really, I don't get it. I don't know why you want it.
+
+[5:08] Useless, useless. I don't want who wants this. Anyways, so like we got him over and we made him cook a cook a steak. But Nastasia was like, Well, I'm not coming over unless I can watch The Bachelor. And I told her, you don't turn on the TV when someone's over at your house for dinner.
+
+[5:24] This is like, I'm a human being 101. You know what I mean? This is like I haven't grown up in a cave. I wasn't raised by TV owning wolves. I know how to behave around other human beings, right?
+
+[5:36] So I was like, look, I am a believer in technology. She's not a believer in technology. Nastasia does not have any form. Nastasia only receives television that is broadcast to her through the air. She will not accept any other form.
+
+[5:51] She won't get it over the internet. She has internet. She has it, but she won't get TV via the internet. She like won't spend the $30 and no extra money ever on a Roku stick or on an Amazon fire. I don't know why.
+
+[6:06] She's a Luddite. It's the same reason why she only listens to music that's picked by people that she doesn't know on the radio. Wow. Rather than, yeah, she like Jack, you, you're music professional, right? Yeah.
+
+[6:18] Right. If you made a playlist, she wouldn't want to hear it. Any jerk.com who happens to like be, you know, get a get a DJ slot on any random, like, you know, radio station along some highway in some crap hole, right? That person's opinion on what should play next in the radio, valid. Yeah, valid.
+
+[6:37] Valid. Anyways, so that person also probably a computer at this point. Yeah, yes. Yes. So anyway, the point being that uh I said, okay, look it.
+
+[6:46] I have the ability to record this uh onto onto a computer, and you can watch it at later at a later point. So I recorded The Bachelor for her to watch, but it was at my house, so she had to watch it at my house. And so then I had to see it. Sorry. But you had a book and you couldn't not watch it.
+
+[7:04] That's not true. I couldn't pay attention. I could it was hard to pay attention. It's like. Yeah.
+
+[7:10] Because you're sitting there like making all kind of comments about people I I don't care about. These people are like compellingly stupid. I don't really see the difference between this. I mean, it's you're basically kind of making fun of humanity with this. Which I don't think it's kind of a base, it's base.
+
+[7:25] I don't know. I'm not for it. Not for it. I get it. I don't really care what you watch.
+
+[7:31] I mean, like, you watch what you like. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, I don't care. Not my thing though.
+
+[7:36] But how do we get on this? Cooking. Oh, yeah. So The Bachelor was on last night, so you couldn't make it. You know what?
+
+[7:43] There's an interesting no fry uh recipe from uh the you know, the new Hit Pressure Cooker. I don't know if it's out yet, the Hip Pressure Cooker book. I don't know if it's out yet. But anyway, there's an interesting kind of pressure cooked eggplant parmy style thing. Maybe I'll look up the recipe.
+
+[7:56] I don't know if it's out, I can share it. Uh, and then uh we'll talk about that. And you try that next time. Do you own a pressure cooker? The hell is wrong with you.
+
+[8:03] You know what, people, listen. Like, we're we're doing this here. This is a 201st episode, right? How many times I talk about like saving time, efficiency, throughput with something like a pressure cooker. Nastasia's sitting next to me every single time.
+
+[8:17] Every single have you missed one? One. I think one. There was one show you weren't here for. She called in for it.
+
+[8:22] No, yeah, I think there's one that she missed. There's one. I totally missed. Yeah, one in Germany. Yeah.
+
+[8:27] And uh and you just no pressure cooker. Why? I don't know. I don't know. Why are you so resistant?
+
+[8:35] I'm not resistant. I just have limited space, and that's a big it's a no, throw away another crappy pot you have and use the pressure cooker instead. I use my pressure cooker about half the time as a regular pot. Oh. You know, and usually if you get a decent one.
+
+[8:52] Look, we've we've pushed Coon Recon enough. With by the way, in my life, you know how I've pushed Coon Recon so much, you know how much we've gotten from Coon Recon? Well, there's Swiss, right? Oh, what's up, busting on the Swiss? What's up, busting on the Swiss.
+
+[9:06] Anyways, I think Nastasia should get a free coon recon pressure cooker. That's all I'm saying. But the you know, the amount of crap that I mean, I don't I own one already. I don't need it. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:15] But whatever. Uh so eggplant parm, that's what you did. I know what I think. Let's let's. Oh, how was it?
+
+[9:23] I didn't eat any. I gave it to my sister. You're such a weirdo. You're such a weirdo. What is wrong with you?
+
+[9:28] Didn't feel like it. It's like the roast Nastasia show. I well, it's it's I just you know what? After all these years, I still just don't understand. I'm using the thing that we built.
+
+[9:37] Yes. Like good enough. Yeah, that's true. Uh okay, listen, here I think like everyone, uh a lot of people who, you know, uh you get busy, you don't cook. I think you should we should take the time to try and make one interesting thing a week.
+
+[9:51] I cook every night. Then why don't you try to make one of those things be new and outside of your comfort zone and then we can talk about it. That's that's your cooking issue. What did you make? Uh I have to go back and uh mentally oh, so this Sunday, what did I do this Sunday?
+
+[10:06] I mean, I again nothing like like we're I did like you like salt and pepper shrimp? Mm-hmm. I made salt and pepper shrimp. You know where you where you you know the trick is a salt and pepper shrimp? It's like the double fry.
+
+[10:17] You deep fry, right? Quickly. Don't overcook the shrimp. Uh and uh with a with a little bit of a batter on it, right? You know, you could do the rice flour, corn flour, whatever.
+
+[10:26] Light, right? Then you add the uh the pepper, the the hot pepper, and more salt, and then you stir-fry it real quick. Right before you serve it, along with like the, you know, I I also put in like chilies and scallions and stuff, stir-fry it real quick. And that's what makes it so crunchy that you just eat the shells. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[10:46] Because you know, everyone's like, well, if the soda pepper is on the outside of the shrimp, then what's the point? Because it's not on the inside of the shrimp, and the only flavor I get out of it is the stuff from if I like suck on the heads or if I get the stuff on my fingers while I'm peeling the shells, which is gross. If you're telling me that the flavor transfer you're getting is solely because you're licking your fingers after you peel the shrimp, you've just told me that it's gross. Is that gross? Mm-hmm.
+
+[11:09] Yeah. Uh my point being that like if you fry it right like that, you should be able to eat the shell. Mm-hmm. Which I do. I I consume more than my fare of chitin.
+
+[11:18] And I made my mom's escarol dish, which is like a go-to on Sundays when I'm super busy. I like it. You like escrow and beans? Mm-hmm. Beans, meat, escarrel, and biscuits, which I know you hate.
+
+[11:30] Yeah. Anyway. So that's uh that's our New Year's uh that's our New Year's resolution late. Come in. You know, well no, 201 is like a new, it's our new No, yes, our third century of uh of cooking issues.
+
+[11:41] I like it. Yeah, nice cooking report. Cooking report. All right, let's get to some of the qu uh what about you, Jack? You cook anything interesting?
+
+[11:47] I made uh it was like a beet facilli with some trumpet mushrooms. Wait, the the pasta was colored with beets? Yes. So it had no flavor. Not any discernible flavor.
+
+[11:58] No. Here's a little secret. Yeah, here's a little secret. Uh colored pastas, they don't taste any different. My friend just got a vegetti.
+
+[12:07] That is the grossest word you've ever said ever. Do you know what it is? Yes. Why don't you describe to our It's uh like a spiralizer for for vegetables? I want to know the.
+
+[12:18] Mostly only squash, though. Like you can't really. No. Well, I mean like squash, including like zucchinis. Yeah.
+
+[12:24] Yeah. That's all. And then you make like veggie pastas and stuff like that. Yeah, pastas. Uh, what kind of non-English speaker was like vegetti?
+
+[12:32] That's a good name. Vigetti. Jack, would you ever like knowingly eat something that came out of a vegetti? I'm not gonna answer that question. Not gonna answer that question.
+
+[12:47] Oh god, Vigetti. Moving on. Yeah. But anyways. Answer the question, Jack.
+
+[12:53] Well, look, uh look, what about Dicon? Dicon would be good in that thing, but not quite. Maybe. But the stupid thing is it's supposed to be like healthy for you, but all the recipes say like use the vegetti and then fry the noodles and then you know. Well, I hate any I hate anything who's pineapple.
+
+[13:07] No, no, but it's stupid. Yeah. Uh wow, vegetti. You just threw me for a loop. You threw me for a loop.
+
+[13:14] I'll tell you what I don't like. Uh here's what I okay, I okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You know spaghetti squash? Yeah. In the 70s, right?
+
+[13:24] When I first became aware of spaghetti squash, because that's when I first became aware of anything, because that's the, you know, I was born in 71. So uh, what they would people would do, and by people I mean my mom, who's a great cook, great cook. And I actually I just went to her, like uh I went to her anyway, her, she just got honored recently because she started the pediatric heart transplant program at Columbia University. Who by the way, I did not realize this, did the first pediatric cardiac transplant successful anywhere. Yeah.
+
+[13:50] She did that? Yeah, she's a cardiologist. Look, here's the thing. Everyone, oh, look, if for any surgeons that might be listening, you're not gonna take an insult to this. Everyone's like, oh, it's the surgeon, it's a surgeon.
+
+[13:59] Listen, the surgeon comes in, they cut the heart out, they put the new heart in, they they they sew it back together, and then they're done. Like the the care beforehand and afterwards, right, is there gonna be whether or not this person lives for a long time or doesn't? You know what I'm saying? Whatever. She's a cardiologist.
+
+[14:14] Surgeon's a surgeon, cardiologist a cardiologist. I don't know how many times I've had to go through that. Anyway, uh my point is uh spaghetti squash. So my mom used to make the spaghetti squash, but the problem is spaghetti squash can be delicious if you steam the sucker, right? Or whatever, just roast, whatever.
+
+[14:32] Shred it into its little noodle lips or whatever you call those things, and then like butter, like lots of butter and other stuff, maybe some crunchy stuff in. You know what it's not good as? It's not freaking spaghetti. You don't put a can of uh or a jar of pasta sauce into the spaghetti squash. This is why they shouldn't have called it this.
+
+[14:53] You know what I mean? Spaghetti squash carbonara. It's gross. It's gross. It doesn't taste like spaghetti.
+
+[15:01] To go back to what Jack was saying earlier, one of the few things uh I learned about making pasta, I mean, because I I may have made a lot, lot, lot of it, but you know, never I became very good at it, was that you could add anything to it to add color and it doesn't change the flavor. So, you know, originally I would care what I added to it to and then eventually I'm like, ketchup, whatever. I want it to be red, I'm gonna dump a bunch of ketchup in. Because it doesn't matter. Pot like the vast majority of the ingredient is the flour, and there you're not gonna get any flavor out of it, it's all left in.
+
+[15:29] Agree, Sas? Yeah. Yeah. You know what does taste is like using an alternate flour. Duh.
+
+[15:36] Like uh, you know, like the whole wheat ones or the faro ones or something. There's one that's made out of garbanzo beans now. And it sounds gross. You have a vegan look on your face. Is it tasted?
+
+[15:47] Because they were on Shark Tank or something. They put it to you personally? Yeah, because they came to Pastifier when I was working there. Wait, so the dudes who are on Shark Tank the Show. Yeah, they no, no, no.
+
+[15:57] The the guys who created this Garbonzo bean. Oh, we're gonna go on Shark Tank. They were on Shark Tank. They got chosen, they won money from drug extension, whatever. So they pitched it to me and they were like, I was like, what's it taste like?
+
+[16:08] And they're like, Do you like hummus? And I was like, no. So it like completely like sometimes I really appreciate you. Uh who doesn't like hummus? No, I do.
+
+[16:24] I just didn't want to leave into the It's even stronger. What do you think about that, Jack? Yeah, that's great. I have a caller. Oh.
+
+[16:30] Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh Jolly Savito. How you doing? I'm doing good. Hey, um, I have a quick question.
+
+[16:38] Um I want to build a precision boiler for making coffee. And I started looking at like PIDs and heating elements and all that. Um my plan was to hook up like a like a swivel valve to the bottom of an insulated stainless tank, eat the water, and then just dispense it straight over the coffee. Right. Um, but I started pricing it out.
+
+[16:57] By switch wait hold a second. By swivel you mean ball valve, like a ball valve? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. Um I started pricing out all the different components I'll need, and it almost made more sense just to go ahead and get a circulator like an ANOVA.
+
+[17:10] And um I emailed their technical support and they said that you technically could do that, but they don't officially sanction it, you know. Um, so what don't they officially sanction? What what don't they sanction? Oh, drinking the water that's circulated through the ANOVA, they don't officially sanction. Ah, gotcha.
+
+[17:27] I mean they they said that they said it'd be a problem from a standpoint of if your tank gets dirty or the circulator gets dirty, you don't clean it. But they didn't specifically say don't do it because the water isn't good to drink. Um and to my understanding, all the parts are that are on that are submerged in the water are like food grade and metal and except the bottom uh the cap for the um pump is plastic. That's probably not a big deal. You're dealing with you know, everything below 25 degrees.
+
+[17:56] So um I was just wondering what the deal is there. If that's something that's like even reasonable or I'll give you two deals. Here's two deals. One as the manufacturer of equipment that people use to cook things, and having spoken to many uh people, they will never tell you it's okay because they have to sp you have to spend whether or not an item an item can be pure as the driven snow. But you in order to get it so that they can legally tell you it's okay, they have to pay some some Joe Como a lot of money to look at it and certify that it's okay.
+
+[18:34] Even if they even if every material that's put into it is known to be food grade, right? They have to like pay a lot of extra money and then keep the certs up to be able to say that it can be in direct food contact. So that's why none of these folks are ever gonna tell you that you can do that. Unless unless for some unless there's a big market for it. If there's a big market for it in a commercial situation where they need direct food contact, then they'll pay the extra money.
+
+[19:02] But unless they have to for a very small thing, they're never gonna tell you it's okay, right? Now, since I don't manufacture that product, if they say that the stuff that it's in contact with the uh with with the water is food grade, then you're okay. Your obvious points are one, uh, you know, you have to sanitation becomes a big deal because if it's not meant to be food contact, it might have nooks and crannies where bacteria are gonna grow. But that said, you're gonna be circulating at a temperature that's gonna wipe out any uh vegetative bacteria. Obviously, you're not in like sterilization spore stuff, but you could always, in between things, bleach it if you want, right?
+
+[19:38] So I would say you're okay. Now, uh second point is that uh, I mean, I've used circulators to uh do uh tea seminars where people wanted very accurate tea temperatures. One of the problems with circulators is in general it's not gonna it depends on do you want to do this every day of your life or are you just testing? If you're just testing, then yeah. Get a circulator and like uh, you know, just get a container and like put like a little valve in the bottom and take out of it, make sure you know insulate the container, whatever, insulate the thing you're putting it into so you don't lose a lot of effects.
+
+[20:11] But on a day-by-day basis, do you want this sucker hanging around in your kitchen with a circulator in a bane with a valve over a thing with the stuff? You know what I'm saying? So uh like a lot of uh the other thing is if you just want to see whether if you just want to see whether or not you like the results, then yeah, womp it up out of a circulator and then figure out how to make it all fan dancey so that you uh you know, so that you get the results you want. Like right now, right? You know, I want to see whether or not the the I know it's espresso and it's not what you're working on, but I wanted to see whether this ranchillio that I was, you know, that I had would, you know, PID'd ranchillo would be kind of where I want it.
+
+[20:48] So it's kind of opened up all over my kitchen, and it takes a a boatload of time to make coffee because it's a nightmare to work with. I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth it for me to fix it 100% and then put it back together in a way that makes my work streamlined. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Yeah.
+
+[21:03] So I wouldn't worry about too much about the f uh the food gradeness. I don't know what kind of plastic that that they they use, but um what do they use? Do you know what they use? Do you know what it is? Is it ABS?
+
+[21:15] It's probably ABS. But um what I'm thinking is is it's an impeller pump and I just need it to to basically even out the ambient water temperature in the tank. So I could just take the cap off because I don't need directional flow. Right. Right.
+
+[21:34] Yeah, anyway, if you're really super dupe worried about it, I mean like the really baller m the really baller move. Here's the really baller move for you. The really baller move would be to uh also submerse the um you're wait, are you doing uh what what style of coffee are you doing? Is this is this uh are you doing it like stirred and then drained? Are you doing pour over?
+
+[21:54] Are you doing French press? What are you doing? Uh Kennex and Harrier V60, so basically just pour over. Okay. Because if you were going to do a French press thing, the awesome thing would be to also put the cylinder in the bath that's being circulated so that the temperature although you know look, uh as people have written in, like who knows?
+
+[22:12] Maybe a decreasing temperature during the steep time is what you want. Maybe what you want is a temperature gradient, in which case you need to figure out a way to continuously change the temperature during the extraction time. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's that's another thing I was thinking about is hooking up to like a manifold beneath, and then having like stations where the water is heated to another specific temperature, so I can do an extraction that ranges from you know one ninety five to two oh five and have basically a manifold with three different valves on the bottom and they're all heated to different temperatures. Right.
+
+[22:43] Right. Huh. Let me think. I think the easiest way to probably do it, I think most people who do coffee, they want to s let's see, they want to start high and go low. They want to start high and go low, right?
+
+[22:57] You want to lessen the temperature over the course of the extraction, is that true? Um actually I'm not I'm not up on that right now. I need to research that. Yeah. Uh if you want to if you want to lower the extraction temperature over time, then what you want to do is dump the liquid through a uh a block that is hotter than the water.
+
+[23:23] And then the water as it passes through over the course of the um over the liquid passing through it, the liquid will cool it because the block won't be able to heat it uh at the same rate for uh a long enough period of time, right? So what you'll get is is you'll you'll get a gradient that goes uh initially it'll start at the block temperature, and then if you if you time it right, you know, and if you get all the thermal masses of everything right, it'll end at the temperature of the liquid. And that can be changed obviously also by changing the flow rates and you know various other things, like whether you add extra heat to the block during the period of time when you're doing it. Doing the reverse, I suppose you could also do the reverse where the block is colder than the liquid and and then the liquid comes out um, then the temperature will rise. Um but anyway, the all these things would have to be tested by by testing it.
+
+[24:17] You'd have to you'd have to do it. You know what I mean? But all of that's easier than actively changing the temperature of the bath over time. Which would be much more complicated. And in fact, we if you look at most coffee machines, um they're they're kind of like the good designs are the ones where uh you know it's not necessarily that the temperature is uh a hundred percent stable, but the gradient during the shot is favorable.
+
+[24:39] Again, my brain only thinks espresso, so I have to apologize for that. And what's that? I said I said I have to apologize, my brain only thinks it in espresso, but think about it this way in a classic French press shot, uh French press uh uh cup of coffee, right? There's a large temperature gradient between the beginning and the end, and that's a decreasing gradient. So if you like that flavor, whereas I think a clover, which I don't have any experience with running one, I think a clover can maintain the shot temperature.
+
+[25:05] So I've never done like a side by side press versus clover shot uh without kind of getting rid of the other intervening variables. It's all interesting. It's a question of what what tastes best, what you like. But anyway, hopefully this is somewhat helpful. What's that?
+
+[25:19] I said hopefully this is somewhat helpful. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. I said I I said I hope the information helps out a little bit. If you can't hear, if you can't hear well, you have to go back and listen to it on the uh on the iTunes. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:33] Um so I mean it's basically just my way of sidestepping buying a $3,500 uh Marco or um the Uber boiler or whatever. So um yeah, I'm just trying to find a way to hack my way around that. So all right, well, tweeted on IntoCooking Issues uh at Cooking Issues. Tell me how it works out for you. Awesome, we'll do.
+
+[25:50] Thanks a lot. All right, Jack, you want to take our break? Uh yeah, let's do that. Jackie Molecules. Hey, what's up, guys?
+
+[26:11] It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecularecipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff.
+
+[26:52] There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place. Molecular recipes dot com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout.
+
+[27:16] That's promo code HERETICAGE. So again, check them out. Molecularecipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley. Good news, I got Johnny on.
+
+[27:29] You got Johnny? Yeah, I'm here. Hey, what's up, brother? Oh, is that was that your is that your Johnny Hunter music? Yeah.
+
+[27:35] Let me hear some Johnny Hunter music. Wow. Wow, I did I didn't know that was your jammy, Johnny. Yeah, we got Johnny from the Underground Meats Collective, Underground Food Collective in Madison, Wisconsin. First of all, uh, how's it going over there in uh Madison?
+
+[27:54] I hear a lot of a lot of uh protests going on right now, or what's it l what's the what's the feeling like over there? Yeah, it's pretty intense. Um yeah, just uh unarmed uh African American kid was shot last weekend, and uh the city is kind of grappling with it and asking a lot of really good questions. So um the protests have been really good. I mean it's like really engaging and a lot of people participating.
+
+[28:23] Yeah, well, anyway, it's terri yeah, awful. Um so uh we had a question in on smoking uh meats, and um I thought I'd ask you because I didn't want to answer the question based on my s solely theoretical knowledge, uh, because you know I don't have a lot of uh expertise in what this person asks. So I figured I'd call you. Jason wrote in uh hey cooking issues team. I have a question on cold smoking and smoke absorption.
+
+[28:50] As I understand, smoke absorption is affected by the relative humidity of the environment and the moisture of the product being smoked. What about temperature? How does environmental and product temperature affect smoke absorption? I'm thinking cold smoking in this case. So if I s cold smoke at 75 Fahrenheit, will I get more or less or the same smoke flavor as if I smoke at forty uh forty degrees Fahrenheit?
+
+[29:11] Inquiring minds wish to know, Jason. And I figured I'd ask you since you probably tested this stuff. Yeah, let me uh hold on, let me ask the he our head smoker right now. Um I'm gonna find him and I'll just talk about some random stuff about smoking while while you get back. Alright.
+
+[29:34] So uh that said, like smoking incredibly complicated. I haven't really I haven't really studied it in depth uh in a long time, even from a a theoretical basis. Um but I did learn some interesting techniques. What? We should thank him.
+
+[29:50] Oh yeah, we should. Yeah. Oh wait, oh wait. Oh yeah, well he's back. I'm gonna let Charlie answer this question.
+
+[29:54] All right, first of all, thank you for the meats for the 200th episode, by the way. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. All right. So d who do we have on the line?
+
+[30:01] Hello? Hello. Hello. Hey, this is Charlie. How you doing?
+
+[30:05] So the the qu the question was in cold smoking, like uh what's the difference in terms of smoke flavor, more or less smoking at 40 Fahrenheit versus 75 Fahrenheit? 75 degrees Fahrenheit? Yeah. Um there's not gonna be that much difference between 40 and 75. You know, the only real difference with uh smoke doesn't penetrate once meat gets above about 130 to 140.
+
+[30:31] It stops penetrating at that point. So, okay, so you're saying that like you're gonna get so you're so you're whatever you're doing for if I think forty degrees, seventy-five degrees, I don't think that's gonna make much of a difference. It only it's always gonna affect it once it gets above like that one thirty threshold. Right. Do you think there's gonna be a big difference because the humidity in the box is gonna change a lot if they don't have good control over the humidity in in the box because it's gonna be like a different relative humidity when it's that cold when it's like like fridge temp versus when it's at like room temp, or is it not is it really just gonna be like six and one half a dozen the other?
+
+[31:07] It's you know, I I don't really think there's much of a difference. Some people really think that there's a huge difference, but I I don't think there's much of a difference if if you're the humidity is is relatively the same. You know what I mean? Right. And so then would your opinion be keep it at like 40 just for safety reasons?
+
+[31:26] Is it you are you better off just staying low then? Yeah, you know, you you're always better off staying low. It depends on if you have any uh pink salts or any sodium nitrite in the in whatever you're processing, whatever you're cold smoking. Sure. If you have if you have that, then you're not worried about the botulism, not worried about that temperature getting up there.
+
+[31:46] Right. So you're hearing from a quality standpoint. If you don't have anything, if you don't have any nitrite or anything in there, then I would keep it at forty or below if you can while you're cold smoking. Right. But if you have but if you have cure in there, then you're fine.
+
+[31:57] And you should be able to to smoke at 75 degrees and then cool afterwards. Sure. So you're saying it's not a quality issue, maybe a safety issue if there's not enough uh botulism inhibition due to cu do due to the cure you've applied. That's yeah, that just going on what you're saying with the what I know from what you're saying just now, yeah. That's what I would think.
+
+[32:16] Is there is there any difference by the way? It's just a question I have not related uh to the um how uh wet or dry you want the surface of a product to be when you cold smoke versus when you hot smoke. I mean you uh any time you're gonna smoke uh you want to give that give the um whatever you're whatever you're smoking a day to hang um overnight in the cooler so that it develops some some tact to it. Right. But not totally you don't want to you don't want to form uh like a like a c an impervious skin.
+
+[32:44] You don't want to case harden it though, right? No, you don't want to case harden it, obviously. You know yeah, you don't want it to be completely dried out, but you do want to have uh the a a a decent dry surface. If it's if it's wet, it you know, the s the smoke tends to it can get kind of like an acrid taste to it. Sure.
+
+[33:00] Now uh there's a there's something I read about which you know you guys like having access to uh all the science folks over there at the university. I just read about it, I didn't know about it, and then they're gonna cut me off the air soon, so I wanna see what you think about whether you you can try this. Have you heard of electrostatic smoking? Um no, I guess not. I mean, I I've I've seen some pretty bizarre smoke designs.
+
+[33:23] I've I've seen like where it's like a friction smoke, but I don't know what that is. Yeah, friction smoke is cool. Okay, so like I think it's pretty clear that the temperature of smoke generation is super important. Rel like super important, right? So we're not we're we're not talking about that.
+
+[33:38] This is check out what these guys do. This is like super speed, super speed smoking. What they do is is they have a metal conveyor belt that the food travels on, right? And they travel it underneath a 40 kilovolt electrode, right? And what they they set up a giant electric field in between this electrode and the conveyor belt with the meat in between, and it just wham!
+
+[34:05] Like accelerates like the particles and the vapor stuff in the smoke onto the meat, and then it rolls away, and so stuff is smoked in like five minutes. But here's the crazy part about it. According to the data I've been reading, like it literally forms like a layer of smoke on the on the uh on on the stuff that you can peel off until it goes through its like cooking and like tempering out procedure, and it at that point the that like it soaks in and and behaves like a normal piece of smoked meat. Isn't that crazy? Uh I guess I'm still confused.
+
+[34:37] Like a conveyor belt, you said it whizzes the meat through? Well, yeah, so a conveyor belt is moving through, but it also provides like the other side, the electrode, the ground, and then they have smoke going through this chamber, and then they have a giant electrode that like electrostatically slams the smoke into the surface of the meat, like embedding, embedding the not just the particles, right? Because you know, every everyone who's like smokes knows that like there's there's particles which have like a certain like uh the the can you know and and the the actual vapor which is different, right? So there's the vapor and then there's the particles, which is why if you put smoke in a container, let the let the particle settle out and open it, it still smells like smoke because there's vapor and whatever anyway. But it accelerates not just the particles, it accelerates the vapor like with this huge like uh electrostatic force bang right into the surface of the meat and is like instant smoke.
+
+[35:26] Isn't that nuts? So, but is it so does it penetrate though uh further than or is it just a base level like just the surface? Well, these guys aren't doing it in a cold smoke application, they're doing it, I think, in a hot in a like a pseudo-hot smoke. So what they're doing is is that is that after it goes through that on the conveyor, it goes through its cook process. And during the cook process, like all all the stuff that's been embedded in the surface of the meat will distribute throughout the meat the way that it would in a normal kind of uh situation.
+
+[35:57] Yeah. So so it it sort of uh that's interesting. So it puts like a heavy dose of it on the surface of the meat, and then that is absorbed through just the regular cooking process. Right, but not but but not so not heavy in the same way that like applying a heavy smoke would make it accurate because it's a different anyway. Check it out, see whether one of those lunatics at the university can like can uh rig one up for you.
+
+[36:20] I'd love to hear someone who actually could play around with it. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. My gosh. It's really interesting.
+
+[36:27] Well, anyway, thanks so much. Thanks so much for the answer. They're gonna rip me off the air in about in about 30 seconds. We love you guys at the underground uh food and meat collective over there. Uh all all our you know, love out to Madison, what's going on right now.
+
+[36:39] Uh got more questions I didn't answer. We'll get them next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[37:04] You can email us with questions anytime at info at Heritage Radio Network dot org. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Wow.
+
+[0:36] I went through the whole spiel. Oh thank you. Oh, a glass of wine. So nice. Bubbling.
+
+[0:50] Stas. Uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not with me in the studio today. She is actually in Long Island on the day that we have bubbly here, Stas. What you can't believe it. You're missing the bubbly.
+
+[1:00] I know. I asked for the bubbly for you. Oh, that's so sweet. That was me. That is that I didn't pay for it.
+
+[1:06] That is a true friend who it's not the money. It's the fact that she wanted someone else to have it, even though she couldn't have it. That's the mark of a true friend for Staz. That is a true friend. All right, Joan, I'm gonna cheers the microphone here, right?
+
+[1:19] That's the that's me. That sounds great. Yeah, right. Okay, now do it again, clicking the microphone. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:24] Fancy. So Congratulations. Did you tell anybody yet? No, no. Just uh just came on.
+
+[1:30] Uh by the way, this is uh Cooking Issues. Uh I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from uh Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Roughly Twitter. It's a nice smooth intro. Yeah.
+
+[1:45] Well I cut you off on the beginning because I was fumbling and getting the the uh applause ready. Oh, nice. Nice. Well, you know, now now that we've been nominated for well, the radio show still has yet someday, someday. Yeah.
+
+[1:57] But maybe now someday someday. So my book, Liquid Intelligence, nominated for James Beard uh award, along with the Sherry book and the Death and Co. book for um like a beverage uh uh writing, I guess, or beverage book. And I'm super happy. This is the first real award I've ever been nominated for.
+
+[2:15] Ever. Really? Isn't that weird? I mean, not weird, but like, you know. Ever?
+
+[2:19] Ever. Look, uh, when I was in school, I wasn't the kid that got awards. I was that kid who's like, you know, I didn't do poorly enough to get best improvement, you know, because I always did well, but I didn't do well enough to get any of the awards. Like, you know, I definitely didn't get that best citizenship award. Did you get that crap, Sto?
+
+[2:36] Stas got best personality in uh goal figure, huh? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Me, you know what I was?
+
+[2:43] I was that kid who you know on Valentine's Day when everyone buys the carnations for their buddies. Oh no. You know, they buy like a you you could buy a oh it's a white one, it's a friendship, and the green one, I don't know what the green one is, whatever in the hell, and then the you know, the red one is who I love you, all this other crap. Well, yeah, I was the one who got the secret admirer carnation at the end of the day because everyone had to get one, and so if nobody bought you one, they would just hand you one at the end of the day and be like, it's a secret admirer. And it's like, listen, I'm not an idiot.
+
+[3:15] You know what I mean? Like I I get it. You know what I mean? It's like I don't I don't I don't need to walk around with a flower in my hand, you know what I mean? It's like if you're gonna wallow in it, just wallow in it.
+
+[3:24] It's built character, it's good stuff, you know. So I feel like my whole mojo is ruined by this nomination thing. Now that I've been nominated for something, I can't have the kind of like the the warrant why I'm mojo anymore. You know what I mean? If you if you win, you should tell that story.
+
+[3:38] I think that's a good story. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what. Uh uh like the the thing is is that like the both the other books are fantastic, fantastic books. So whoever whoever wins, it's gonna be, you know, it's it's good.
+
+[3:52] I mean, obviously I w I would like to I would like to win for the only thing that I've been nominated for, I mean, I would like to win, but you know, I'm up against some stiff some stiff stiff competition there. Yeah, April 24th. So we'll s we'll see what we'll see what happens. Yeah. So Stas, where are you today?
+
+[4:07] Why don't you tell the people where you are? I'm going to Jackson Pollock's old house, um, to learn about what he used to make for dinner parties. Yeah. Something like that. You mean the non-alcoholic stuff he used to make for the dinner party?
+
+[4:20] Raging alcoholic Jackson Pollock. And mean, you said. Oh, you're terrible. Oh, just bad, bad guy. Like from all accounts.
+
+[4:27] I mean, look, I didn't meet the guy. The guy died, like, you know, way before I was born. But from all accounts, just a real jerk. Just a real there's a movie actually. I think Ed Harris uh plays him.
+
+[4:38] I never saw the movie, but I don't I don't know how true to life it is. But uh did you I mean w whatever, whatever. But like uh how's the how's the food looking so far? But we're not there yet. So I think yeah, yeah, we're not there yet.
+
+[4:51] But supposedly we're gonna get to like I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how it is. Well, I know you're a hater of everything.
+
+[4:59] So like there's nothing you hate more than a concept. I know, I know. I don't even know why I'm here. Yeah. Well, it's fun.
+
+[5:06] I mean, look, it's gonna be good. It's it's a shame that it's cold. Actually, so that I can listen to that radio station. Yeah, oh well, yeah. It's Nastasia has a um uh it's obsession.
+
+[5:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, obsession. There's a sh there's this like no offense to it. I mean, look, we're I'm talking, but they're like this tiny radio station in Long Island, and what is it you like about this radio station, Stas? It's so local. It's just so incredibly like community oriented.
+
+[5:34] And I and I I it's like listening to a police blotter. Yeah, remember that one time we were listening to it, and it was like they were describing the stuff that the cops took out of the pocket of the kid that they pull you know pulled over at the mall or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy's ham and cheese sandwich. Oh, yeah, all kinds of yeah.
+
+[5:50] Yeah, yeah. And he had a ham and cheese sandwich in his pocket. So weird. Some weird oh and you have a lot of catch-up questions. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.
+
+[5:59] But I also I can't uh leave without saying that uh when I spoke to Nastasia this morning after I heard about the uh uh nomination, she was like, You got nominated for best uh insulated food separator. Because that's all Nastasia uses cook uh the liquid intelligence for yours, yeah. Yeah, your book. Yeah, my book. Yeah.
+
+[6:17] So she's uh she assumes that the other two the other two are actual books though, Nastassi, that have words in them that you can read. Whereas mine is simply something that keeps hot foods and cold foods separated. It's like it's good. That's why I wrote so much. Yeah, it's perfect thickness.
+
+[6:30] You know, if I had written any more, it would have been too heavy. If I had written any less, it wouldn't have been as good an insulator, you know. Yeah, nice. Anyways. Uh we might be joined later in the program uh by uh Peter Kim.
+
+[6:43] Oh, yeah, so do you guys like the more mellow uh intro? There's the more NPR style intro? It was very distinguished. Yeah, yeah. I didn't hear the intro.
+
+[6:51] Well, you know, if we if we ever want to get nominated, we're gonna have to go more distinguished instead of like maybe that's what's scaring them away. You think? No. No. Uh yeah.
+
+[7:04] Anyway, calling your questions too seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's I'm trying to anyway. Uh but Nastasia, you actually hate all of the I shouldn't say that. But you you don't like uh you don't like kind of mellow like stayed folks, right?
+
+[7:14] No, that's why I don't listen to NPR. I just don't like the mouth noises that you can hear when people talk like in a mellow way. Yeah. I love NPR actually. I know.
+
+[7:32] Yeah, whatever. Hey Dave, we're gonna have somebody come in and film you. Is that cool? Really? Yeah.
+
+[7:37] Okay. You like how we can just ask that on the show? Yeah. Great. Awesome.
+
+[7:41] All right. Uh I mean, whatever. It's there, it's it is their camera. That's for our Kickstarter video. It's pretty exciting.
+
+[7:47] We have a new website coming. Well, why don't you say something about that before I get into the but quickly because I gotta get I gotta get some. Well, we started on time. I haven't even started yet. The video will tell you everything.
+
+[7:55] So that's it. Here's the teaser. We have a new website coming and a Kickstarter campaign to fund that website. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do with the website?
+
+[8:05] But I mean, are you selling Viagra? What are you doing? Oh no. It's for the radio. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:10] I know, but like is there like some you don't want to you don't want to give anything away. It's gonna be in the Kickstarter video. That's right. All right. Yep.
+
+[8:16] All right. Fair. Uh are you running the Kickstarter, Jack? Not just me, you know, the whole team here, yeah. Good luck.
+
+[8:26] Oh yeah. Hey, do we have a uh firm ship date by the way? Speaking of Kickstarter on the uh stake decorators. Uh no, we don't have that date yet. But they're done, right?
+
+[8:37] They're done. They should be shipped out this week, and they should be here, you know, the next couple weeks at most. Alright, cool. Alright. We'll give you more info when we get it.
+
+[8:47] Uh yes. And uh pretty soon we can talk about our next products. Pretty soon within. You can. You can talk about it.
+
+[8:54] Yeah, but I'm not gonna bring it up yet until I have it firm when I'm gonna do it. But like within within a month or so, it should be announcing our next stuff. Once we get the steak decorators out and everybody's happy with us and we don't have uh the the hounds at our heels. Uh okay. Uh let me get to some questions, which is what we're actually here for instead of just uh chit chatting.
+
+[9:12] Uh BJD wrote in and listen, I apologize. Obviously, this was a uh a corned beef question for St. Patrick's Day, and obviously St. Patrick's Day is over. Let me just say that corned beef is not just for St.
+
+[9:26] Patrick's Day. Do you like corned beef stuff? Yes, I do. I think it's good. Wow.
+
+[9:31] Wow, unusual. Yeah, uh, it's good stuff. But do you like it? Do you like any form of it? Are you a sandwich corned beef person or more like a hash person?
+
+[9:39] Uh sandwich form with mustard. Oh, yeah, mustard. Oh my god, mustard. You know, I can still remember when I was a kid, very young, you know, like we did touristy stuff, you know, because you know, I lived in Jersey, and who, you know, what did we know? No offense.
+
+[9:52] Uh no offense. Uh but uh so I remember we went to Carnegie Delhi. This is a billion years ago. This has got to be in like, you know, late 70s, early eighties or something. And I got the um the Broadway Danny Rose, which I believe is corned beef and pastrami.
+
+[10:08] Uh and I asked for freaking mayonnaise and like the Oh my god. Even though I was a little kid, like the waiter almost punched me. It's crazy. You know what I mean? I mean, I would never do that now.
+
+[10:22] I would never do that now. Mustard. Mustard. Are you more wait? Are you more of a pastrami person or corned beef person?
+
+[10:29] I like corned beef better than pastrami. Jack? I can go either way, but I'll I'll go pastrami probably. Yeah, I think I go pastrami. I like them both, but I would definitely if like if I if if you had to choose one thing to go with, I go with pastrami.
+
+[10:41] You know what the worst thing in the world is? People who try to get the leanest pastrami possible just don't have the freaking pastrami. Get something else. Pastrami, like I like love the fatty part of the pastrami with all the pepper and the mustard. Oh my god, rye bread.
+
+[10:53] You like it on rye bread styles? I don't like rye bread, no. Okay. All right. Well, we'll have to discuss this.
+
+[11:02] Uh-huh. I'm not gonna call you I mean, I just did. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say I'm not gonna call you out, but I just did.
+
+[11:09] That was it. I just did. Okay. With the holidays upon us, St. Patrick's Day, which I missed, because I was flying back, people from uh South by Southwest, where uh I was giving a talk uh with uh Peter Kim and Emma Boast about the uh Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[11:21] Maybe he'll talk about it when he gets here, and maybe not. I was literally there. We also did a uh a really fun event uh for the museum at uh place called uh Odd Duck in uh Austin. Fantastic place. Everyone there is really, really nice.
+
+[11:34] Uh food, excellent, really awesome place. I recommend anyone in Austin go check it out. Uh with a holiday Oh, by the way, oh my god. I I know I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna get to the questions, but I I don't want to forget this because you know how I am. Johnny Hunter's birthday today.
+
+[11:48] Hey. Oh, oh, nice. Johnny Hunter's birthday. I don't know how I know this. I just got a text.
+
+[11:54] I thought it was from you, Stas. Someone sent me a text that says it's Johnny Hunter's birthday. So there it is. Happy birthday. Nice.
+
+[12:00] Happy birthday. Happy birthday. And I believe, uh, is he in the finalist list? I know he was nominated in the pre nominations for the beard award. Is he in the finalist list?
+
+[12:09] I hope so. I didn't see his name, but uh I didn't look that hard. Well, anyway, happy birthday. Um finally, a question here. With the holidays upon us, I was wanting to hear Dave's suggestions on brining and circulating a brisket.
+
+[12:22] I'm planning on going with the serious eats recipe, but I'm always looking to improve. And then they link to uh Kenji's uh uh recipe for um brisket with uh uh you know whatever brisket you know so anyway. So here's the the recipe. It is uh brisket trimmed with uh salt. Now listen, uh, and he cures it for eight days.
+
+[12:44] It's salt, spices, you know, sugar, you know, peppercorns, all this mustard seeds, coriander, blah, blah, blah, all spice, clove, yada yada yada, right? Uh let's get to the to the nuts and bolts. First of all, uh Kenji calls out uh I'm just gonna comment on this particular recipe uh that you're that you're dealing with and and and deal with it. First of all, on the salt. Uh in the in the recipe, uh it calls for first it gives a um a grams and then an ounces and then a cup measurement, and then it says diamond crystal kosher salt.
+
+[13:18] Now I'm sure most of the listeners on this show will know that uh you cannot measure salt. I'm sure it's just like the this the way they have to do it for the website. You can't measure salt by volume. Specifically, kosher salt is a freaking nightmare uh to measure by volume because diamond kosher salt, which is, by the way, the choice of everyone everywhere who has any sense really for uh general salting, uh, is ex it compared to Morton's kosher salt or any other like a form of like regular like iodized like salt crystals, is very fluffy, right? So uh if you were to use a uh a cup of uh diamond crystal kosher salt is I I don't remember exactly, but it's something like the equivalent Morton's kosher salt is like only like two thirds of a cup.
+
+[14:11] So it's wildly different. So you always want to weigh your uh you always want to weigh your salt. Now, the reason to use uh the reason everybody likes diamond who has used it, uh, and I think it's available nationwide, just have to search for it. The the reason is is because it's fluffy, it's easier to dose out because you can put a healthier sprinkle on, and because you can put a healthier sprinkle on because it's less dense, you know, you have more margin for error when you're sprinkling the stuff in. It's it's it's easier to sift in your hand and dump on stuff, doesn't clump as much, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[14:44] It's just a superior shape kosher salt for cooking. Like, period. Like, that's just all there is to it. So if you're gonna measure by volume, you must use diamond if you're gonna follow his recipe. But you know, like I said, I think most of the listeners of this show already know that.
+
+[15:00] Um then calls out uh for the cure, because remember, these are cured uh things, calls out for uh 10 grams uh of uh salt saltpeter or pink salt. Now listen, salt peter is like an old thing that people call out. Don't use it. Just forget it. It's there's no freaking reason to ever use saltpeter.
+
+[15:23] Don't do it. What is that? What is salt peters? Uh saltpeter is like uh I think it's pure sodium uh nitrate. I have to look it up.
+
+[15:32] I'm not exactly sure. I think it's pure soda or something like that. Maybe Jack can look it up while I'm talking. But it's like an old thing that people used to get at druggists, uh, you know, at druggists. I got it once when I was a kid because I was making natron, which is the mummification salt when I was doing my mumma my mummification project in uh in uh in elementary school and I had to like pack it into a things.
+
+[15:52] But the point is is that you is that you don't want to use it, right? Just don't, because it's incredibly easy to get nowadays curing salt right but you can't just say pink salt right so what happens is is that regular salt is regular salt if you want to get the kind of uh cured taste and color in meats uh in a reasonable amount of time you have to add uh nitrites or nitrates so the the trick is is that there's there's three different ways that the average person can get these these things one is that there's two kinds of kind of uh instacure as pink salt called prague powder one and two or instacure one and two or pink salt right one is the one that you want to get it's nitrite right and then two is the one that you don't want to use and that's nitrate and uh the difference is is that nitrite is uh consider that like a short acting um kind of cure agent whereas the nitrate is a more is a kind of a longer acting because a nitrate has to get converted to nitrite before it can then do its uh its curing work. Now so what do you use the nitrate for? Well you use it for country hams and things like that. Basically nothing else.
+
+[16:59] Anything else you're gonna do you're gonna use nitrite. Definitely any wet branding you're gonna do you're gonna use nitrite which is a instacure one or pray powder one make sure you get the right one. The other thing you could do instead is use a product that you can get in a lot of places called tender quick and that is salt uh with the instacure already put in on a salt weight basis. So then if you use that if you use tender quick that's a Morton's product and it's not as uh dense you have to definitely have to weigh it but then you omit the pink salt altogether. Anyways uh Kenji says to uh marinate it in a vacuum or in a ziploc.
+
+[17:35] If you marinate it in a vacuum bag, you're gonna get a faster penetration and if you marinate it in a Ziploc. Uh he does it for eight days, flipping it, that's all good. Then you what you're gonna like the real baller way is like if you want to do it quickly, is you could pressure marinate this thing, but you'd have to get like a pressure pot. They make stainless steel pressure pots for painting. Uh or you could if you have a Cornelius keg, you like a you can throw the brisket into the corny keg and then pressurize it at like 80 PSI with a with a tank with like a CO2 tank.
+
+[18:05] It's not gonna hurt anything because you're gonna get the CO2 out later or nitrous if you have it, like I have it, and then pressure marinate it, and you can marinate it very, very quickly and then let it let it sit, and it'll be a very equal cure then. So you won't have to worry about salt equalization as much because it's gonna penetrate very, very quickly. So that's something you can do if you really have a a need to tech it up. If it's for some reason you don't want to wait around for eight days or you just want to penetrate it and try something else, you can do that. Uh I don't think it's gonna necessary from a quality standpoint.
+
+[18:33] But here is where it gets interesting. He has uh Kenji has two different um cooking uh techniques. Both are uh take it out of the cure, uh wash it off, right? And then one is a traditional way where you put it Oh my god, you remember you guys of you've all seen uh Raiders of Lost Dark a million times, right? Yes.
+
+[18:52] Yeah. So now I have in my head, because Dax repeats it constantly, is when the guy is looking at the uh a headpiece of uh Ra and he goes, This is the old way. Remember that? Remember he's like he's like take back one kadan. Remember this?
+
+[19:07] Anyone remembers this? Where he's like where they're like like the the awesome dude and Indy with the bad dates and the monkey, where he's like that like the Nazi has burnt only one side of the staff into his hand, and so they make the c they make the s the staff six kadan high, and then he has flips it over, he's like, take back one kadan to honor the Hebrew god whose octis is, and then they all say, The staff is too long. They're digging in the wrong place. You don't remember this? As soon as whenever anyone says take one back, it's all I can think about.
+
+[19:29] This is gonna only make sense to people who are Raiders of Lost Ark fanatics. Jack, do you remember any of this? I mean, not that specifically. I remember the movie. Come on, it's one of the great movies, please.
+
+[19:46] Deck Lynn in here remembers that part. Yeah? Nice. Yeah. Sweet.
+
+[19:50] At least somebody's with me on this. Anyways, where was I? Oh yeah. Uh so the old way. Uh so is put it in a pot of water with a little bit uh, you know, with like an inch of water over it or something like that, and then just uh he puts it in the oven at 200 with a lid slightly ajar.
+
+[20:05] So the real question is, how what temperature is that actually? He's cooking it for a l long time, like 10 hours. So the presumption is is that he's getting enough evaporation in there such the temperature never gets above probably I don't know, 190, 180. I don't know. I have to I'd have to measure it.
+
+[20:20] I don't know. I don't he didn't give a measurement for the temperature that it is when it's in the oven. But when he does his uh sous vide, his his his vacuum bag one, he cooks it at a hundred and eighty Fahrenheit. Now that is traditional kind of temperatures. He also cooks it there for ten hours, which I don't know.
+
+[20:35] I don't know how long it takes to to cook that out. But here is where you have a big change in texture, flavor, and taste. When you're cooking the brisket in uh water, uh, traditionally, right, you're giving it more of a poach, you're leaching flavor out of the meat, right? And you're also giving it uh that kind of more poached texture. It's gonna become more friable, it's gonna be I don't know, it's gonna be different, right?
+
+[21:00] Uh y when you do it in the bag, uh it's going to be kind of more compact, more sliceable, um, and it will have a more intense flavor. Now, here's the issue is that is you're gonna leach a lot less salt out when you cook it in the bag versus when you cook it in um in water. You're also not gonna have the f like cooking liquid left uh later to redo the veg and other stuff afterwards, so you have to come up with something else to do there. Now, uh another uh issue is is that you have to choose what kind of texture you want. If you want a traditional texture on this thing, then you have to cook it high at a high temperature.
+
+[21:38] And that's how I do confit, even in the bag, frankly, when I'm doing duck, uh high for about the same length of time as you would normally, because you're cooking it roughly at the same temperature that you would normally cook it. The other alternative you can do, and it makes an entirely different product, not better, not worse, different, is to go low in temperature, something like 57 degrees uh um Celsius, uh 135 Fahrenheit, roughly. And then uh at that temperature, you're gonna want to cook it for probably between 48 and 56 to 72 hours, somewhere in there, somewhere between two days and three days, probably in the fifties of hours, and you're gonna want to cook it for for that long. Right. So you have two choices.
+
+[22:20] And it's based on what kind of texture you're trying to achieve. Now, um the other thing is they mention uh he mentions is that is the cool down. Now here's the vital part of uh this procedure. When you're doing it traditionally, you just leave the you put the lid on, you let it cool down. As it cools down, it reabsorbs the the some of the juice from the boiling liquid uh that goes into it.
+
+[22:40] And when you do the bag, you have to do the same thing. You have to let it reabsorb. Now, here's the trick. Do not simply throw the uh the bag into ice water. You need to let it reabsorb um the liquid.
+
+[22:54] So what you want to want to do is take the bag out of the circulator, whatever else you're cooking it in, leave it on uh the table for at least at least 20, 30 minutes. Now, if you've cooked it up at 180, remember also there's no botulism in here because you've cured it with nitrates uh or nitrites rather. So you don't really have to worry that much about botulism. So I would, you know, not worry as much about how quickly you chill it down if it's in a vacuum bag. I I I probably shouldn't say that, but me personally, I wouldn't worry about it as much.
+
+[23:22] And I'd want to get a low ramp down in temperature. So at the very fastest I would ever chill it is like 20 minutes on the tabletop on the on the uh countertop in the air, and then 20 minutes in uh regular room temperature tap water and then in ice water. But I would actually push it even further. I would probably do like half hour, half hour, and then in ice water to bring it down, let it cool down, and then do your retherm when you cook it out because you're gonna get it if you you're gonna get a much better product than if you just shock chill it. That's gonna be the big uh that's gonna be the big McGillah.
+
+[23:57] Yeah, that makes any sense? Yes. You're like, I don't care. I don't care. Uh okay.
+
+[24:03] So Elliot Papanow wrote in good old Elliot, uh long time listener of the show. Uh, and he only addresses it to me, he says, because he knows that I'm the only one answering the questions, but he does say hello, Stas to you and to Jack. Hey, Elliot. He does say hello to us. He says hello to you, but he's not addressing the question to you.
+
+[24:20] He knows. I know. I remember seeing that email and it Yeah. Whoa, what do you mean? Give me some.
+
+[24:25] Give me some insight into the nostalgia. I you know, I was just like, I'm only addressing this to you, Dave, because you're the only one who answers the question. But then he said hello. What? Oh, oh, by the way, you'll like this.
+
+[24:37] Peter just came into the studio, and of course he's doing the awkward I don't know how to sit down Peter Peter Kent thing. Peter came from the Museum of Food and Drink, folks. This is contest. Oh, please, thank you guys. Thank you, please.
+
+[24:52] Please. So uh wait. I don't know how to sit down. Well, that one time Dave made me give him a freaking lap dance just to get over to that seat. That was a crossbow.
+
+[25:02] Family show. Yeah, you weren't here at the beginning, but we're trying to be more professional now. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[25:11] I'm gearing up for uh new spring growth. Ooh, how much do you hate that uh that phrase spring growth? Ugh, yeah. Even though you're a gardener. Well, gearing up for it.
+
+[25:21] We still had a we had a frost uh this last week. Anyway, and I want to know the best vinegar and neutral alcohol to infuse with berries, wood, shoots, stems, etc. I plan on service berry, uh, spruce tips, good call, cherry wood, sour cherries, which I wish I could do, wild wild raspberry, uh strawberry, bean flour, I guess for the color, I guess, ramps, which are your favorite. Uh he calls you out on that. Hammer's fave, ramps, because Nastasi hates ramps.
+
+[25:49] Because everybody else hates ramps. Oh, because everyone else. Yeah, it's almost ramp season now, too. Annoying. I like how you're angry at the plants for growing.
+
+[25:57] You're like those damn ramps and they're springness. Also, if you ever meet Nastasia, never tell her that you are enjoying the weather or that you can because she hates people enjoying the weather. Right? You hate it. Yeah.
+
+[26:10] Yeah. Uh I think we've said this before, but she is like uh like the singer from garbage. She is only happy when it rains. Um anyway. Uh so what what do you suggest?
+
+[26:22] Uh I live in Illinois, Elliot Papinau. Well, that's a good question. Um, I mean, vinegar is so I I would just choose whatever vinegar you like. Just be you know the flavor of the thing is how clean do you want it to be. Remember, and how vinegary do you want it to be?
+
+[26:39] The the the acidity is going to get mellowed by the fact that you're adding fruit. And fruit is roughly I don't know probably over 80% water in that range. And so you know your acidity is going to be very mellowed by the amount of fruit that's present in the vinegar. So if you want like hyper acid uh for the infusion, then you might want to go remember that Swedish vinegar we used to use it's like super high acid Swedish vinegar. I forget what it was, but it was nutty baggins.
+
+[27:06] It was like 10% or something acid. And that was like hyper vinegar distilled. I actually am a fan of I have to say like I like the cleanness of distilled vinegar for a lot of cooking but then on the other hand I love uh you know a delicious uh I love a delicious uh flavor vinegar as well but on the alcohol you're definitely gonna want to go um you're definitely gonna want to go uh clean unless you have something specific now uh here in the in in New York we can get something called uh uh industry standard technical reserve that's like ninety five uh five but it smells and tastes a whole lot better than everclear does if you want to do some like super high stuff remember you're gonna be lowering the proof of the uh product by uh how you you know by the amount of fruit that's in it but if you use a very high proof very clean alcohol you can um add a lot of fruit to it and get very very uh you know strong um extractions out of it so or hey, you can just use like a regular uh but remember like if you have uh a kilo of uh of liquor and a kilo of fruit, you're gonna end up with a proof eventually that is you know down in like the mid twenties somewhere. So that's gonna mean that the fruit's gonna age more uh and different things are gonna happen. Now, I forget, Elliot, whether it was you or somebody else that tried the um pectin methylesterase, which is the uh uh novo shape, which is the pectin strengthening enzyme.
+
+[28:30] But I would definitely I think it maybe it was you. But you you definitely wanna uh try that. This year what I would do is is take the the fruit, uh I would add calcium to I would do an initial soak in water of the pectin methylesterase and calcium. Uh and then I would add some extra for good measure to whatever you're gonna steep in there. I don't know whether it uh 'cause I I haven't tested it, I don't know whether it is deactivated by alcohol or not.
+
+[28:57] Uh I suppose we could find out. I could ask someone, but I would definitely add some both before as a pre-soak if you can in vacuum it in or or let it or ISI the the the enzyme into it along with calcium, you're gonna get a mu uh with an ISI because that's gonna damage it from the pressure, but uh you're gonna get a much firmer product and it stays firm over t although you know what? I had an old school back when I was allowed to have cherries, uh my my stepfather's grandfather uh put down some cherries in the nineteen twenties. Uh and his secret was he would just snip the stems but leave the stem on. It's old wives tail, I'm pretty sure.
+
+[29:35] But uh I had one of those cherries that was put down in the twenties in the late eighties and it was still good. Yeah. Yeah. Boozy. There's two left of that, by the way.
+
+[29:45] There's two left of those cherries in the world. Anyway, does that make any sense, Doz? Any sense? Any sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:51] It doesn't don't you have like something from him that you have to drink soon or something like that? Well, he's like ninety five years old. So there's those two or three cherries left. So like the idea was I wanted to get and I almost got the story done once. I just wanted uh him, right?
+
+[30:08] And then uh my stepfather, and then my brother Ben, and we're gonna make Manhattans and put those cherries in it and just have like, you know, almost it's almost a hundred year the cherry pretty soon will be a hundred years old. So I think it's just it'll be interesting that the last three of these things, and then you have a 95-year-old person, a you know, 62-year-old person, and a 22-year-old person, like three generations, like having a Manhattan, I think it'd be a good story. Wouldn't you wouldn't it's a good human interest story? I'm human, I have interests, maybe. Uh anyway, you want to do our first break and come right back with some cookie issues?
+
+[30:39] Great timing. Boom. Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler.
+
+[31:13] So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes dot com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over four hundred thousand chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets.
+
+[31:46] Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place. Molecularrecipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout. That's promo code HEREITICE. So again, check them out.
+
+[32:03] Molecularecipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. This is the Mellow Cooking Issues voice, trying to be more professional.
+
+[32:18] Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues with Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. Welcome back, Peter. Yes, yes. We need a little smooth jazz, Dave. Oh my god, smooth jazz.
+
+[32:27] Oh, smooth jazz. Yacht Rock. Yeah. That's uh hey, did you didn't uh play Jackie Molecules, Jack? Of course we did.
+
+[32:34] Oh, my brain was just fuzzed out? Yeah. Can I hear a little more Jackie Molecules? Um it ran, but I mean molecular recipes.com for more. Yeah.
+
+[32:43] But they don't play the music. I just want to hear the you Oh, the song. No, we we played the commercial over the uh break song today. Oh. Stas just hated that song so much, you know, like we couldn't couldn't couldn't keep playing it.
+
+[32:54] Yeah. Who did your break song, by the way? Jack. Oh, yeah. No, no, no.
+
+[32:58] That song is not for me. That's a good one. No, no, that's a listener. Yeah, that was that was no, that's a long time ago. But the Jackie Molecules song.
+
+[33:04] This would be the Jackie Molecules song. Molecular recipes.com. Yeah. It's molecular. Memo would love this.
+
+[33:16] Yeah? Yeah. Well, that's good. Stas hated it. Just the song.
+
+[33:19] Yeah, well, you know, we love molecularescipes.com, which you guys should check out, but the song Stas Hate. I actually prefer food that's not molecular myself. Yes, you prefer the antimatter food. Well, as they are well aware, I make fun of their name on a constant basis because I hate the term molecular uh cooking. I've been painted with that tar brush many times.
+
+[33:40] Um Linus writes in about uh East. Now listen, you know how like ISI and EC, like for years there was confusion over whether it was ISI or EC, and it was ISI here and EC in Austria. You know who I'm talking about? The whipped cream folk? Yeah, of course.
+
+[33:54] Yeah, yeah. So I I'm just gonna from now on I'm just gonna say EC because that's what you're supposed to say now. Right. So I'm not gonna say ISIS I anymore. Agreed.
+
+[34:02] It's E C. Henceforth. Just E C. That's right. That's what it is.
+
+[34:05] Yep. Okay. Now, EC makes uh a number of different i whipped cream makers. Whipped. Now they they uh make uh a home jazz version which is not stainless steel looking.
+
+[34:17] It's like it it's you know metal, but it's like Teflon coated and it's not it's got a plastic top instead of a uh metal top. Fine machine, I own that for many years. You know why? Hawaii because they are cheaper. Uh so you know, back in the day when all I used it for was whipped cream, that's what I owned.
+
+[34:33] Do you own a uh whipper, by the way? No, not yet. Chumpa. Okay. Uh just saying here, chump.
+
+[34:39] Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. So the question is regarding uh whippers and different styles of whippers. Because they have various different kinds.
+
+[34:46] All right? Yep. That's a preface to this question from Linus. Yes. Okay?
+
+[34:50] All right. All right. Uh love the show. Just had a couple of quick questions about EC whipping siphons. Uh re by the way, they've been called siphons since uh f I believe they started getting called siphons in the US as a result of translations of Spanish stuff into the US.
+
+[35:07] Technically, right, only the soda ones are siphons. And this is not Linus, this is not a reflection on you. Like everyone calls them siphons. They aren't siphons unless they have the tube running from the top all the way down to the bottom, like a soda thing. It's the same way that if you order a CO2 tank and you want to get the dry ice out of it, you have to order what's called a siphon tank, which has a tube going on down at the bottom.
+
+[35:30] Why? So you can siphon the liquid off of the bottom instead of getting the gas out of the top. So a real siphon, you don't have to turn upside down to get the whipped cream out of, like you do a whipped cream maker. And by the way, any of you jerks who don't turn the how many times is it happened well it doesn't happen because you don't own one, but like you pass the whipped cream thing around and it's someone like holds it freaking horizontally and like discharges the gas without freaking discharging the whipped cream. Horrible.
+
+[35:56] Party foul. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.
+
+[36:01] Horrible. Anyway. So they're not really siphons. So I don't really care. It's not I don't care about that as much as I care about like other semantic nonsense like sous vide versus low temperature or molecular versus you know cooking, you know.
+
+[36:16] Uh but I'm just saying, like they're whippers really, not not the siphons, right? Okay. All right. All right. Enough.
+
+[36:23] Enough said on that. I recently purchased a used uh EC uh Prophy Whip on eBay. Uh I like purchasing things on eBay. Right. Now the Prophe whip is uh it's meant for whipped cream.
+
+[36:35] It's not meant they don't they didn't intend you to use it for other wacky cooking operations. So more on that to follow. Uh the unit looks to be in good condition, but there was a dark, greasy fill. Is Nastasia back yet, by the way? Her phone cut out.
+
+[36:48] Yeah, I'm here. Yeah. How do you like that? Greasy. Greasy.
+
+[36:53] I don't like the way you see that. I don't like the way he says a lot of things. Yeah, that's true. I like it. Yeah, nice.
+
+[36:58] There was a dark, greasy film on the inside of the head and all over the rubber gasket. Oof. Yeah. Something akin to engine grease. I've managed to wash it off, though I need a replacement gasket.
+
+[37:11] But I was wondering what the heck it is and if I should be concerned. The body itself didn't seem affected. Uh any ideas as to what nefarious or benign purposes the previous owner may have put this whipper uh to that might have caused this odd Ooh, ready for this, Sabaceous residue. Whoa. I know we didn't just call that dude a sebacious residue.
+
+[37:38] Damn. Anyway. So uh you know what? It's like when any like remember, you're making whipped cream in this thing, and when cream festers and gets old and sinks onto the surfaces of things, it turns into a brown, greasy, nasty, stanky, like like old, dairy just nasty. And this is why I tell people, and I'll tell you again, do not store the whippers with the freaking lid screwed down.
+
+[38:10] It just turns into nasty. Nasty. Because unless you get all the stuff off, it's gonna get nastier and nastier and nastier. You need to unscrew it, pull the gasket out, rinse the gasket off, right? And then like put it all together in a way that's not screwed together, and you'll prevent this nastiness from happening.
+
+[38:27] I've had ones where not only have they gone greasy, but moldy, moldy, greasy, moldy, greasy, nasty, nasty. Now, if you were to boil that gasket, I'm sure it would come back to you know being not so smelly eventually. I mean, I don't know whether you've permanently uh altered it, but uh anyway, on to the next part of your that I think that's probably just cream, is my my point. Um secondly, I have read uh in the Chef Steps Forum, Chef Steps, by the way, nominated for like a bunch of everything, like nominated for like up, down, left, right for like I don't know, best people, best people award, something like that. Bronzo.
+
+[39:02] Everywhere, yeah. Uh I have read in the Chef Steps Forum that the Prophy whip can be fitted with a silicone gasket from the gourmet slash thermo whip to make it compatible for hot applications. Do you think this is a good idea? And if so, how should the gasket be oriented inside the head as the gourmet series gasket has a protruding flap on it not found on the Profi series gasket? What's the purpose of this flange and how should it sit within the head so as to not cause any unforeseen problems?
+
+[39:28] Thanks for an informative and entertaining show. Cheers, Linus. Okay, so first of all, I'm sure most of you who can't instantly picture the inside of a whipper are lost. So I'm gonna walk you through this. I'm gonna walk you through for those of you that don't have the whipper in your head.
+
+[39:43] Whipper is like all the whippers that have the stainless steel, all the EC whippers that have a stainless steel bottom, frankly, you can use in a hot application. The guys at EC are extremely, extremely anal about what you can use in a hot and a cooking application and what you can't. And a lot of it has to do with very arcane possible issues where someone might get burnt or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm here to tell you the unit's gonna work. All right.
+
+[40:08] That's like that's just a straight up thing. I'm extremely confident. I visited their factory, I've seen the stuff that they go through, I've seen the materials they use, and they are like crazy nuts on on all that. So you're you're gonna be uh you're gonna be okay. So you have the stainless bottom, which doesn't care whether it's hot or not, right?
+
+[40:24] Now you have the head. Now on the head, the different units have different, um, they have different valve technologies, right? Which uh some the the EC guys won't let you use in certain applications or others, but it's not really a safety issue from terms of hot and cold because they can both be dis dishwashed, so you're not gonna get hosed that way, right? Now, on the inside of the head, there is a gasket. Now the silicone gasket can do like obviously very high temps because it's silicone.
+
+[40:51] Um that one is the one that they recommend for the cooking uh uses and the high temperature stuff, and that little flap that comes off of it is literally just a pull tab to make it easier to go in there and pull the uh gasket out. The other one, I don't really know the rubber composition of it, but it's gonna be fine. I'm telling you, I'm telling you this from experience because I've had it hot a billion times and I've never had a problem. Now, maybe someone can EC can call me and tell me that like you know I'm endangering myself, but I doubt it. The other one is a different rubber composition, and instead of that pull tab, it's got an inner ring that the whole ring flaps out, and you can loop your finger into it and pull it out.
+
+[41:28] Either one fits because the heads, I'm here to tell you, fit on the same bottoms. Every uh one of the professional things is completely interchangeable. So you can take the head of uh of a one-liter whipper and put it on a half liter whipper. You can take the head of a half liter whipper and put it onto a um put it onto a uh thermo uh whip, which is the one that's by the way, the thermal whip is uh is to keep things hot, not to actually heat them up. So if you're gonna heat up the actual whipper, then you don't want to use the thermal whip.
+
+[42:03] The thermal whip is just to keep hot things hot for a long period of time, like a thermos, right? Uh all the parts are interchangeable, including the gasket. So if you want to get a new gasket and you want to get the silicone one, because that's recommended for the hotter stuff, then go ahead and get it because the machining on the inside of the head is all the same. The other thing, like I say, the valves can be slightly different, but the actual threads and the seating stuff for the gasket, you're gonna be okay. And I know this from experience.
+
+[42:25] Yeah? Yeah, you're over there? Yeah, all right. Um, I don't care. I don't care.
+
+[42:32] It's not true. Listening. Kevin wrote in, I started to listen to the show a few months ago and keep coming back because it's super informative and pretty hilarious. Well, thank you. Uh I have more personal questions for I have a more personal question.
+
+[42:45] By the way, every week, Stas, we say your questions cooking or otherwise. So here you go. Otherwise, this is the first time Nastasia has been called out, right? Oh, right. Right.
+
+[42:55] This one. Okay. I have a more personal question for Nastasia. It seems like whenever anyone mentions uh that you went to Stanford, the university, not Stamford, the town, which you also like. I love Stanford the town, you know that.
+
+[43:10] Yeah, yeah. It's the Stas has this love affair with the town of Stanford, Connecticut. Not the actual city center, which by the way, I don't like the architecture there. I'm just saying, no offense to the WWE or WWF, whatever it is, like the Federal wrestling federation has their stuff there. But you you like the waterfront there in Stanford.
+
+[43:27] I like both. I like the Chapan. I like one specific structure in in Japan. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[43:32] Okay. Uh it's C, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about Stanford. Stanford. Okay.
+
+[43:38] The the college founded by or with the money from uh Leland Stanford uh in California. And you were born there. I was born there. I was born there. Uh, and that's basically it.
+
+[43:51] Like what we high tailed it out of there when I was three, and you know, I'm not gonna say never looked back. It's nice over there, right? Anyway, whatever. Dave is a Californian, really cracks me up. Yeah, right?
+
+[43:59] The fact that I'm a born Californian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the opposite of everyone. I was born in California and moved here. Like a smoothie sipping alfalfa sprout sandwichy.
+
+[44:08] Never freaking say that I've been an alfalfa sprout anything. They are the devil. I challenge you to find anyone on earth that actually likes the flavor of those rancid things. No one likes them. They eat them because they think that they're good.
+
+[44:20] I like the flavor of alfalfa. You like alfalfa sprouts? I like it. What do you mean you like it? Do you like poison?
+
+[44:26] No, I think it just has a nice fresh taste to it. It's not fresh. It's the opposite of fresh. It tastes like poison. I like it.
+
+[44:31] Peter, I'm with you. You think wait-blah blah blah. Oh, she just does the bullet. Don't know. They taste dirty and raw.
+
+[44:42] To you. To me, they taste fresh, clean, fresh, clean. Yeah, definitely. Jack? I'm with you.
+
+[44:49] I'm with you on this, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that is like a uh central dish. I think they they get stuck in your freaking teeth.
+
+[44:58] They're like they look nasty. They look like they look like steel wool or something bad has happened. I actually yeah, no, that's that's no problem. I think they're I think they're the worst. Yeah.
+
+[45:08] I don't know. I I don't find it to be offensive at all. It tastes good to me. I like sprouts in general, though. Some people find parsley offensive.
+
+[45:14] Well, parsley, I mean I love parsley. But look, sprouts, they're they're actually physically like f full normally full of bacteria because of the terrible conditions in which they're produced. Yes. And they taste of it. They taste like they were grown in like somebody's shoe.
+
+[45:30] And they are almost invariably raw, so they uh listen, I realize everybody likes pea shoots, for instance. And I don't like them very much because of that raw flavor. I wish they would just be cooked a little bit. Yeah. Uh, because I don't like that starchy rawness.
+
+[45:44] Right. So you have the leftover uncooked uh, you know, seed, right? Yeah, which has been festering in gunk because they had to keep it moist for all that time in a warm environment. Yep. And then a little kind of poorly textured nonsense popping out of it.
+
+[46:01] What's good about that? Uh you know, it's just a really fresh Well, you say fresh. It it for me that's the way I would describe it. Like mung bean sprouts, I love mung bean sprouts. That's a big part of Korean cuisine, too.
+
+[46:12] That's the only good sprout. You just mentioned the only good sprout. Well, there are other good sprouts. I like I like broccoli sprouts, I like alfalfa sprouts. No, you see alfalfa, you know, alfalfa sprouts.
+
+[46:20] I like radish sprouts. Terrible. Yeah, I think it's I like cooked sprouts. Yeah, yeah. Washed, like very thoroughly washed cooked sprouts.
+
+[46:28] Well, so here's the question Is it just the idea of it festering, or is it the it's also just the flavor, too, right? It really the idea doesn't depend on it. Here's what I freaking hate. Someone takes like they make what would otherwise be an okay sandwich, and then they put this mess of hairy, dirty tasting nonsense on top, and then you're like, ah, ah! And you can't even pick them all out.
+
+[46:51] Because when you rip take it off, like some of it invariably is embedded in whatever else is in this thing, you can't get it out, and like one of them reeks of the freaking sprout container that these nasty things were produced in. Yeah. Alright. Wow. Wow, it's I don't know if it's a good thing.
+
+[47:07] Yeah, I know. Somebody like uh more than one. Every time it happens to me. You know who you know who likes them? People who like wraps.
+
+[47:14] Yeah. Yeah. They go hand in hand. Undercooked tortillas and freaking sprouts. I'm imagining a bully who wore like a varsity jacket, shoved Dave against the lockers in high school, and like made him force him to eat an alfalfa sprout wrap.
+
+[47:29] I mean, it's just a horrible. It's like you just have to pretend that you're not alive for the couple minutes while you're eating it. It's like it's not that bad. I mean, like, like I can eat anything. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:38] It's just I would never ruin food with it. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, we're together on the rap thing, but Sprouts, I like 'em. So how about Stanford? Dave is frozen right now.
+
+[47:49] I I thought you guys were gonna. No, no, no. No stats. You're not getting deflected that either. I'm back, okay.
+
+[47:56] Nastasia, it seems like whenever anyone mentions you went to Stanford, you don't want to talk about it and refer to it as that place you went to college, in quotes. As a current Stanford undergrad, I am curious. What was your experience at Stanford like? Also, how the heck did you start working for Dave? So, uh, best Kevin, uh, class of uh 15.
+
+[48:18] So graduating uh this year. This year. Wow. Good for him. Um, I didn't need it, and I'm not and I'm not trying to be like me, me, me, me, feel sorry for me when I talk about this, but I worked 40 hours a week, and I took the full load while I was there, and I just didn't really have much of a Stanford experience because I was more worried about paying the money, uh, paying the tuition off.
+
+[48:45] And I graduated in three years just to get out of there because I was sick of paying that money. And yeah, that's that's it. That's fair. That's a really fair answer. Yeah.
+
+[48:56] Yeah, you didn't but the the the thing about it is what you're saying is is that it has nothing to do with the college. It has to do with the fact that you don't feel like you got the standard college experience. Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
+
+[49:08] Right. Right. All right. But you have nothing against it. I mean, it's a pretty it's a pretty campus, right?
+
+[49:13] What? It's a pretty campus. Do you have Sputnik flying through your hair? What's going on here? Are you on a spaceship?
+
+[49:20] No, no. Yeah. Oh, she's out on the beach. Did you find her like a like a like a an old half dollar or something? Someone's gold ring that they lost in the surf?
+
+[49:32] Was it mine? You know, I lost my I lost a gold ring in the surf once. I lost one of my wedding rings in the surf. Oh, yeah. And then you said all the women and for the rest of that trip kept checking you out.
+
+[49:42] That no, that was a different trip. That was a different trip. I've lost my wedding ring. Uh I've lost it off my finger twice. And uh once in the surf and once, I swear to God, milking a cow.
+
+[49:56] It was either when I was milking the cow or when I was doing the dishes. So I had this event I was doing in New Orleans, and I was washing a lot of dishes, and and then I was also milking a cow, and it's when I was milking the after I milked the cow that I noticed, because they were doing fresh syllabub. I noticed uh that my ring was gone, and the third one that I lost, it got crimped around my finger and had to be cut off. Alright, good. Yeah.
+
+[50:18] So that's why now I have stainless steel wedding band, and it's like, you know, never get crimped on the colour. So you're telling me somebody found a gold ring in their cereal bowl? No, it didn't surf. You know, that's what Stas is doing right now. She's out there beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
+
+[50:34] Oh, wait. And the other half of that question is how did I meet you? I we met through Chesare on a farm trip. Uh, and we were in the same car. Yeah, we were in the same car, and that's when we uh we bonded over, I think we've just told the story on the air.
+
+[50:47] We bonded over this crazy anti-Semite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was like, I can find you anywhere.
+
+[50:55] He's like, he was did we tell the story in the air over? He says, he goes, uh, he goes, you know what? People, they always make a mistake. I can always find them. You know what they don't give up?
+
+[51:05] Their car. They don't give up their car. They'll give up their wife. They'll give up their kids. They don't give up their cars.
+
+[51:10] Then I'll find them. Yeah. And then he's like, plus I hate Jews. And we're like, what the whoa! Ah!
+
+[51:18] And we're in a car with this guy for hours. He's driving us. And like, he wasn't that blatant about it, but almost, right, Starz? Yes. Sounds like the guy from Inglorious Bastards.
+
+[51:28] Ah. I mean, it was like the most random thing in the world. I was like, Yeah. I was like, uh, uh, what are you supposed to do? Like you're trapped in a car with a fucking.
+
+[51:37] I have one, I have one question. Sorry, I almost almost dropped an app. You're trapped in a car with like a vicious anti-Semite. What are you supposed to do? Yeah, you become friends with the person who's not an anti-Semite.
+
+[51:46] Yeah, and so that's why we're working together now. We literally bonded. We're like, we were the only people in the car that we weren't afraid of. Yeah. So essentially the bar got lowered low enough to allow for the possibility of friendship to develop between the two of you.
+
+[52:04] Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like just somebody with like a mild, like a touch of racism.
+
+[52:09] You guys wouldn't have like we never would have worked together. No, no, no, exactly. I could have just shrugged it off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it was like it was like that kind of like like nuclear bomb blast of holy crap, you know, he's saying this now.
+
+[52:23] Yeah, kind of like, you know, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, when someone says something, it's one of those things. Yeah. Oh, damn.
+
+[52:32] Wait, so Dave, I had one question. Somebody doesn't believe that we saw John George working in a sailor suit. Who doesn't believe that? That's just truth. That's the truth.
+
+[52:42] Look, we did an event. I don't even remember what the event was for, but it was at uh, but do you have a photo? And I'm like, No, I don't take photos. Look, we're people. We work, we're working.
+
+[52:51] You know what I mean? Nastasia made me dress in uh a shirt, like a light denim shirt eight times too small for me with a with a fuzzy like appliquade sheep on it. What? And a rainbow. And a rainbow.
+
+[53:06] Yeah. Which you own that shirt now. And Jean-Georges and Greg Brainen were there for Jean-George. They were doing a lobster roll and they were dressed in sailors' outfits, like straight up. And you know what?
+
+[53:17] Big props. Or big ups, as we might say. Uh to uh JG for kicking enough behind that he can show up in a sailor's outfit. And why were you wearing what you were wearing? Because Nastasia made me.
+
+[53:29] Why else would I do anything? Anyway, let's get to some questions. I hate to do this, guys. It's almost time. All right, I got through a minute.
+
+[53:37] Oh. Alright. Brett Humphrey's writing us in about centrifuges. Uh I'm gonna have to go back to Jet Wine Speed. First, I wanted to thank you for the many years of enjoyment uh through the Cooking Issues blog.
+
+[53:46] If it hadn't been for that blog, I never would have gone uh to the fruit and spice park in Florida. Good times, right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah. Uh an out-of-the-way place, but great fun.
+
+[53:54] I always recommend anyone's gonna be in South Dade to go to the fruit and spice park. Awesome. But try to get a special tour so you can actually taste the fruit. You know how tropical fruit people are. Anyway, uh, or maybe you don't.
+
+[54:05] Uh I recently bought a copy of your book, Liquid Intelligence, and also spent an enjoyable evening at Booker and Dax. The book inspired me to buy a centrifuge, and apparently I've picked up one similar to what you use, a Juan 412. That is very similar to what I use. Uh three-liter bench top fuse. Fuge.
+
+[54:20] I will uh this was bought used, and I understand all the risks and concerns associated with such a purchase. I'm working to get it up and running, but have a uh question. What do you use for centrifuge bottles? In your book, one picture shows them pouring directly into the bucket. I do not believe you would actually use the bucket directly.
+
+[54:29] Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated. Again, thank you for the interesting lessons through the years. Regards, Brett Humphreys. In fact, I do use the bucket directly. For many years I didn't, and then I was like, you know what?
+
+[54:45] I'm just gonna use the freaking bucket. You want to make sure that you don't put anything into the bucket that's going to harm look, the buckets are anodized aluminum. If the anod if the anod anodization if the anodized coating is good, I don't think you're gonna damage the aluminum much with uh the very short amount of time that uh acids like juices are sitting in it. I don't let stuff sit in the bucket for a long time. But um there's no bottle that works really well.
+
+[55:08] I I used to make little vacuum, I used to take uh a sealer and bags and form little like kind of lunch bags that fit in it uh to get it out. But all the bottles suck because you have to unscrew them, they have a throat, etc. etc. So I spin directly in the buckets. Downside, you can't fill up too much.
+
+[55:26] If you fill up too much, you can spill stuff as it spins up and spins down. You have to make sure the pins on the buckets are uh nice and smooth so that you don't get any like flap around while it's going. But yes, I do spin directly in the buckets. Make sure you never use, put them in a dishwasher or put detergent. Anything would harm aluminum you don't want to do.
+
+[55:41] Listen, they're gonna kick me off the air, but Brian, uh Brian Van Clavern, I have your question on ham for next week. I'll start off with it next week on how to keep a ham for a long time because what is f what is the definition of forever? Two people in a Virginia ham, and we're gonna get going on it next week. How to keep your ham cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[56:09] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[56:35] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. All right, should I uh Happy birthday to you?
+
+[0:31] Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Dave. Happy birthday to you. Uh very nice. Very, very nice, very nice.
+
+[0:44] All right, now, before we start, thank you. Uh at what age do I get to say years young instead of years old? Uh I don't know. When you're like 60? Yeah, probably 60.
+
+[0:54] Yeah, yeah. 44 years young. Alright, so here's the here's the here's the question. Should I should I do this NPR style or should I start this like regular cooking issue style? I think regular cooking issue style, we can take it from the top.
+
+[1:15] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, Committee Live on Roberta Pizzeria in Bush Twig, Brooklyn, every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual with nostalgia the hammer Lopez. Got Jack in the engineering booth. Calling your questions to 7184, what is it?
+
+[1:34] 7184972128. That's 7184972128. You like that one better than the NPR style? I prefer the MPR style. Hello?
+
+[1:44] Yeah, really? Yeah, I do. I've heard feedback from listeners that like it's in the live. Because they usually listen in the morning, and so the yelling is like, but wait, maybe it's like you could use it as like your eh. For me, it gets me ready for what's to come, you know?
+
+[1:58] Hello. Welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, broadcasting live out of the studios in Roberta's Pizza Wea, Bushwick Brooklyn. On the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly twelve to twelve forty-five. Call in your live questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:12] That's 718-497-2128. I like that one. You like that one better? I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[2:18] We could put it to a vote. Yeah. Write us in, guys. Let us know which one you want. Tweet tweet at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[2:27] Yeah, that underscore's kind of a killer, huh? Gotta love the underscore. Is the other one owned by the by the like uh the foundation? Yeah. I don't think so.
+
+[2:35] That is unrelated to you guys. Yeah. I don't know who the regular Heritage Radio on Twitter is. What? Oh, it's a dead account, the other Heritage Radio.
+
+[2:44] Well, the the other Heritage Radio, the False Heritage Radio. The other at Heritage Radio Regular has one tweet and it says it's from 2009. It says, I am planning next week's syndicated old time radio show. No other tweets. That's yeah.
+
+[2:58] Yeah. I was like, I'm uh we have no bottle opener here, and Jack has a oh well. I'm just gonna use your table here. Old school, because I don't have like even like a knife with me, so I don't feel like a as Nastasha would say, you're only half a man because you don't have your knife with you. But uh, you know, I'm of the uh what'd you do for your birthday yesterday?
+
+[3:18] I worked. I worked, uh I ate leftovers and I fell asleep. You like that? No, I'm sad. I was gonna go out to the bar and hang, but I you know it looked like people were there for you.
+
+[3:29] No, they weren't they they were there for they were eating dinner at Sun. Anyway. Uh so the point uh, yes. Wait, whatever. Like, you know, birthdays, when you once you, you know, once you're, you know, my age, yeah.
+
+[3:40] Birthday is fun, it's nice, you know. I cooked a big meal on uh on Sunday, because the birthday's on the Monday. Monday birthday is like, what are you gonna do on a Monday birthday? Everyone's got to work. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[3:50] Mm-hmm. Anyways. But you got a tandoor. Oh, yeah. So big news for, well, so next week is Easter.
+
+[3:57] And so uh, of course, what do you when you're gonna cook Easter dinner? What do you do? You buy a tandoor. So I drove to uh plus also I've mentioned before I'm gonna do a big outdoor kitchen, but I've really been uh kind of researching kind of what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna build uh an old school bread oven.
+
+[4:11] I considered maybe buying a bread oven and then just putting it in, but I think I'm just gonna actually build it from scratch. But the problem is is that when you're pouring the concrete and doing all this, you have like days and days where it's gonna take a long time. It's gonna take probably the better part of this season for me to actually be able to build the bread oven if I'm only working, you know, on you know, every other weekend or something to do it. So it's gonna take a while. So what can I do right now?
+
+[4:32] I can just get a tandoor. And you can buy for not that much, I mean it's expensive, but not that much money, just a completely built-in tandoor. They build the tandoor liner, uh, you know, with uh whatever hairy crap they put into the clay, the clay they in deli, they put it inside of a stainless steel trash can fundamentally, and then they uh put refractory cement around it, they give you some skewers, a little bread cushion, you hunt non works, right? Yep. With the bread cushion.
+
+[4:56] So you they give you a little bread cushion, and you're ready to go. So, you know, I'm gonna be doing uh I'm gonna do oh I gotta call Patrick Martin's. I know, you yeah. Listen, peoples, if you need lamb for Easter, which I'm sure you do, there is still time to go to Heritage Meets and and purchase some of their uh lambs. Are you uh familiar with the lamb at Heritage Meet uh Jack?
+
+[5:18] I know you're just very good. Yeah. Anyways, Tunis lamb, if I'm not mistaken. Really? Yeah.
+
+[5:23] From from Tunisia, I would guess. Uh probably. Those guys know from lamb. Anyway, so the uh the point being I'm gonna try and uh I'm gonna try and like sneak some lamb from Patrick, and I'm gonna do uh I'm gonna do Mediterranean flavors tandoor cooking. What do you think?
+
+[5:38] That's good. I like it. Do you like you like kebabs of lamb? Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[5:43] You you've had them and don't like them? Yeah. Why? Why? What the hell?
+
+[5:47] Although I had uh from a food truck last night. Is that is that is that your new uh that sounds called From a Food Truck sounds like a like a novel, like your first novel from a food truck. What's that called? What's what called? Shave it off.
+
+[6:02] Which version of it? Uh Sharma? Yeah, uh no. It's called something. Zero?
+
+[6:06] Yeah. Oh it was really good. Donor? No. Uh yeah.
+
+[6:11] I don't know. So but that's like pulped lamb and other stuff. Yeah, I just don't like like the crusty lamb with all the spices on the outside. Oh my god. You know, you know, Stas, you never cease in finding new ways to culinarily disappoint me.
+
+[6:26] You don't like the crusty deliciousness on the outside of a lamb kebab? No, I don't. I don't like some of those flavors. What is it? Cumin?
+
+[6:33] You don't like cumin. You don't like cumin, yeah. Do you not like chili? See, that's remember when you yelled at me for not putting cumin in the chili and you were like it's not chili. It's tomato stew.
+
+[6:42] Right. That yeah. Until you had the cumin. At which point, well, or be you know, beef stew. It's beef stew.
+
+[6:50] And a rather crappy beef stew at that, until you add freaking cumin. That is uh that is not cool, Stas. I know. Um okay, so back to the although I now I can't get that out of my head. Oh, cheers.
+
+[7:03] Um what about the well his classes? What about the um what about the like the Russian version of uh of lamb kebabs? I haven't had that. You would like that because it's not spiced. That's great, yeah.
+
+[7:18] Well that's what I'm gonna make. Okay. But I'm not gonna be there. Well someday you will come up. Someday you'll come up and we'll get the lamp.
+
+[7:25] Anyway, this is where we're going off topic. Is that ever happened before that we've gone off topic? Never. It's never happened. Anyway, I'm very excited about the tandoor.
+
+[7:32] I have to um there's you you're one of the big things when you get a tandoor is it's clay, right? So you like people first you have to pre-fire it. So I gotta do the pre-firing with charcoal. And that stops it from cracking because it remember when we made the fake tandoor for Anthony Cordain. Yes, I do.
+
+[7:47] And we cracked it because we fired it real hard real fast. We tried to do a pre-fire, but we didn't. We did that stuff back then, and that was less hardcore than what? I mean legally hardcore the legality of what we did was not. No one cares.
+
+[8:03] Nobody cared. Anyway, so yeah, so you know, and we made that tandoor in what like like a day, less than a day. Less than a day. We did the old school like two flower pot tandoor and we drilled a hole in the bottom for the charcoal thing, put it in a trash can surround it with insulations. And the food was delicious.
+
+[8:17] But anyway, but now a little more hardcore. So I gotta do a pre-firing of it, and then the the big bone of contention with the tandoors that is that you have to season the inside of it with like with a mixture of like he hasn't used it? Who? The guy. He sells them new.
+
+[8:29] Oh, okay. I went to his warehouse in New Jersey. You can go to this warehouse in New Jersey and the guy will just hand you a tandoor. Well, it's like 350 pounds, but he'll hand it to you. He has actually a giant warehouse dude who looks like a giant warehouse dude complete with the sweet warehouse dude beard.
+
+[8:43] And he like picks up the uh the thing and puts it in the back of your station wagon. Anyways, uh yeah, it's out right out there in Jersey, like 20 minutes from New York. You can just go buy it, pick it up. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[8:54] So I hate to have to say this, but I have a caller on the line who's upset with the way you treated her vegetti. Oh my goodness. Hi Dave. Oh my goodness. I was so embarrassed.
+
+[9:13] That's the greatest that's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. So Dave, I was listening a couple weeks ago and I heard you were talking badly about the vegetti. Uh just the name the name the name. But you don't trust the noodle the the product no you don't trust the product. You said that noodle the you said that you didn't trust the product we were talking about vegetable noodles and how they're not a noodle it's not a noodle.
+
+[9:47] Yeah. It's not I think it could be an interesting I think it could be an interesting look I mean I think like shredded like like daikon shreds and strips are delicious. Right? Yeah. Many shredded things shredded or like strips noodles viralized.
+
+[10:02] Spiralize oh my gosh you know what all right all right uh and so you have a you have a you have a a vested steak in the in the vegetti device or more just a love for it? I have a what? Are you like a part of the Vegetti Corporation or do you just have a just have no I just I got one because I'm you know trying to cut back on the carbs and it changed my life. I mean you can you can use it for everything like um vegetti carbonara, vegetti and meatballs. I mean, it's like wait, did you say vegetti and meatballs?
+
+[10:43] I mean, it's amazing. You can do vegetti fritters. Yeah. Dave looks like he wants to kill himself. You ever done like sausage and vegetti, sausage in the gravy with the vegetti?
+
+[10:54] I'm not gonna here's a here here's uh okay. And what's your favorite things to vegettiize? Or spiralize, as you would say. What are your favorite things to uh to spiralize in the vegetti? Oh, well, I pretty much exclusively spiralize zucchini of the green and yellow variety.
+
+[11:13] But doesn't that just turn around? I've never really done anything else. I don't I think that you know it has to be um a little bit soft. I think that like a potato or a carrot would be a little too much for the spiralizer tea, you know. How how big is the opening to the vegetti?
+
+[11:33] How big is the opening to it? Like what what size of a veg can you stick into that thing? I mean, like a zucchini size. You could do a cucumber. You could do like a cold cucumber salad.
+
+[11:45] You can put a cucumber in the vegetti. Okay. All right, all right. All right, hold on. Here's my question then.
+
+[11:54] Dave, I'm gonna send you one for your birthday. Uh all right. Well, we'll play around with it. We'll play around. And and why don't you experiment with it and then you know, I'll I'll call back in and we can go from there.
+
+[12:05] That's a fair deal. That's a fair deal. That's a good deal. All right, we'll do. I haven't I haven't busted out a lot of like uh we haven't done a lot of side-by-sides or like you know, culinary tests in the past year or so because I've been you know focused more on bar and the cookbook and everything and the sears all.
+
+[12:19] But we will definitely reopen our testing, uh our t the testing phase of our career with the vegetti. I look forward to it. Thanks, Claire. Well, thank you. And I'll say that the Cierzal and Vegetti are a great match.
+
+[12:29] We'll test it for you. When you send it send send your favorite things that you like to do. Bye bye. Bye. Bye.
+
+[12:41] Oh my God. Okay. Um for those of you that don't know the well I guess you now you know if you listen to the previous conversation you you know what the vegetti does for a living. Oh man. So we were talking about before Tandoors.
+
+[12:58] Yes. So whenever you're when you when you when you fire Tandoor for the first time you um you you you know protect the uh the clay from later thermal shock right but then you have to put a seasoning on the inside so I'm trying to figure out whose recipe for seasoning you need because uh people mix like like sugar and mustard oil and like eggs and spinach and they rub it all on the inside the theory being that I guess it affects like the patina and whether or not the nauns will stick to it properly and then release properly when they're when they're cooked. But expect me to go on kind of a Tandoor frenzy for the next I'm gonna do I'm gonna probably do Mediterranean style lamb with spices that you might appreciate styles for Easter along with just non after non after non after nan you like non right? Yeah yeah everybody likes non anyone in the engineering booth not like non do I have to get an argument over here come on garlic non's my favorite. Yeah?
+
+[13:51] Yeah you like the garlic non? Yeah. I like plain. I don't know why I like plain. What about you stuff?
+
+[13:56] I like plain. I like plain. Yeah in general you like plain. Okay. Oh, I have to recover from that.
+
+[14:03] Alright, so um last week we had uh we had a question we didn't get to from uh Brian Van Clavern Cla Clavering uh about ham. Uh hey Dave Hammer and the Booth Squad. Oh, I like that booth squad. Yeah, me too. Yeah, Jackie Molecules in the Booth Squad.
+
+[14:19] Oh man. Yeah, well it's like it's almost like you become like the terror squad, right? Yeah, terror squad. All right. I received my first country ham last week.
+
+[14:28] A half of a Colonel Bill Newsom's country ham. Colonel Bill Newsom's out of, by the way, I believe it's Princeton, Kentucky, I think is where they're from. But they're uh Nancy Mahaty uh is the is the ham curing uh master there, and she's been doing it for a long time. I think she took over the business. It's got to be like maybe 15, 20 years ago now at least, I think.
+
+[14:47] I don't know. It's been a long time. I haven't spoken to her in years. But um her hams are are done according to the uh recipe that they've had in the family since their family was in Virginia, you know, hundreds of years ago. And uh they do ambient curing.
+
+[15:02] So ambient curing meaning they they really only cure one time of year when it starts getting cold out, and then they don't do a refrigerated cure process. They would have they do it in the way that you would have done it before you had refrigeration. So she has, you know, every year she produces a different batch, some of which she saves for long enough to do two and three-year-old age hams, although they all get bought up right now because she has, you know, uh pretty wide cult following following. The thing I like about uh her ham, she also doesn't for what it's worth, uh she does I believe she's a non uh non-nitrite adding uh non-nitrate adding uh person, but I I can't remember. But anyways, I think the interesting thing about her hams in particular is that uh they they I've never been to her cure curing area, but apparently it's near a pretty swampy region, and uh maybe that's why.
+
+[15:49] But they like at their best, her hams have a particular kind of funky, almost at the back of your mouth, blue cheese kind of a note that I think are indicative of her best hams. And so whenever I taste one of her hams, I like taste to see whether it has that particular note to it. In which case, then I'm you know, I'm like, oh, that's the real deal. Uh and the only other hams I've had that have that blue cheese note are uh is a ham that my wife smuggled back to me from China. Which when we go visit uh production, we can we're gonna go on a hamathon in China.
+
+[16:19] Can't wait. Cannot wait. Anyway, uh that was none. So I've got a few questions on storing it and slicing it. For storing, I just put it in a brown paper sack and fold up the end tightly inside my kitchen cabinet.
+
+[16:32] Then I set the ham in a bag on a metal grate trivet. Online, it's mentioned to use cloth or wrap uh or to wrap it in paper, so I figured this is close, but I'm still on the lookout for a cotton bag or something. My house has a California cooler, which is a vented food storage box, which I could use for food storage as well. The conditions inside there uh for the next several months will probably be around 52 to 64 degrees and around 75% average humidity, maybe a bit higher. Whereas the cabinet would be a tad warmer and drier.
+
+[16:59] Of course, I could always just use the fridge, uh, but the other spaces are more plentiful. Of the options between us, a kitchen cabinet, a California cooler, and a fridge, what would be ideal. And because I got half a ham, there's quite a bit of meat that's already exposed. Is it necessary to cover sliced areas with some sort of fat? I'd prefer not to use lard or shortening with hydrogenated oils if possible.
+
+[17:18] Why though? I wonder why. Don't know. Why? Don't know.
+
+[17:23] Alright. Uh so I was wondering if peanut oil or something might be a decent substitute. If not, I do have some leaf lard I can render down if I need to. I'm wondering what the best way to slice is. I've looked at instructions for slicing both country hams and Spanish hams.
+
+[17:36] Most of what I've seen for country hams look like they instruct you to cut perpendicular, like a spiral cut, uh, or or at least closer to being perpendicular to the bone, which seems to be better for frying or whatnot. I like whatnot's a good one, right? Whatnot. Uh for the Spanish hams, the cuts seem to be closer to being parallel to the bone. If I'm primarily eating it uncooked with very thin slices, what is the best way to cut it?
+
+[17:56] Thanks. Brian from San Francisco, California A. Okay. Now, let's go in you want to go in reverse order? Let's go in reverse order.
+
+[18:03] Alright, first of all, how to cut a ham. Now the age old uh this is like this is the heart of the, and I've spent a lot of uh time figuring out whether you should cut a ham uh across the grain, the way that we traditionally eat all hams in in this country. And by that I'm I mean even when they're eaten crudo style. So I'm talking prosciutto, and even the average American slicing a uh Spanish ham is going to slice it um across the grain. Now my feeling, borne out by research that I've done now, like did over 10 years ago, so I have there's probably I'm sure there's been a lot of uh recent sc much more recent scholarship on on this, not that what I was doing was scholarship, but it was for the ham exhibit I did back in 04, was that traditionally meats are uh the hams like this were sliced, if they were going to be eaten in a crude style, were sliced uh the way a Spanish ham was.
+
+[18:59] And that in that to this day, you know, the uh Italian folks who you know are more artisanal at it doing it, will slice it uh the the long way, that is, uh horizontally, that is with uh you know, with law the grain running along it in a long strip. This does several things. It uh produces a much chewier piece of meat, uh, and it allows you to s uh section the entire length of uh, or not the entire length, but a larger length of the ham in in one in one slide. So it gives you a chewier thing and more textual variation, and also uh let's be honest, most ham s uh hand ham slicing isn't so good, so it it gets like thick and thin and thick and thin and thick and thin. Remember that time we were doing it and you everyone was laughing at each other, everyone was telling how everyone else was a crap hole, and then as soon as you said someone else was doing a good job, then they would break through and mess it up.
+
+[19:50] That was at the farm. Yeah, it was fun. Anyways. So uh the the point is is that uh the people who like that style like that style. Now, the cross cut that we have now uh really I believe didn't it it never came into vogue in terms of crude ham serving until the invention of the uh meat slicer by uh fellow named uh Van Burkle who of the Burkle meat slicer.
+
+[20:14] So those those and those, the original ones were completely vertical, the ones that the that you see in the fancier shops with the vertical blade, and actually the original ones were amazingly frightening looking because it was literally a large spinning blade with no guards at all. They're just they're fantastically frightening. You ever seen the pictures of those styles? There's a picture of what looks like a uh you know, a 2015 Brooklynite, i.e. he's got like a huge hipster kind of mustache on them, as standing in front of this machine with oh my god, imagine if we got one of those old ones and like set it up and then like forced hipsters to use it.
+
+[20:45] Their hands would get cut off like left and right. No blade guards on this thing. They don't use their hands to hold on to the bike fixies anyway, right? Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. The only time I've been heavily damaged in the kitchen was with a meat slicer.
+
+[20:56] Well, I mean, other than being horribly burnt. But I mean in turt with a knife. And the lie. Yeah, but I mean what I meant to say is the only time I've been really, really badly cut in a kitchen was on the was on a meat slicer. And that was like a m semi-modern one with a bunch of guards on it.
+
+[21:09] Even like I'm holding my thumb even just thinking about feeding my thumb into the edge of that blade, which is like anyway. Um I've thankfully never, you know, severed huge, you know, anyway, whatever. Um yet, yet. Wow. Uh you don't want to know what Stas just said.
+
+[21:25] Anyways, the point is uh that the advent of that slicing technology has kind of like led not only to the luncheon meat phenomenon that you have, remember blimpy back in the day? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh fresh slice, blimpy. Do those things still exist?
+
+[21:39] You still have blimpies? Anyways. Um but led to this idea of cross-cut hams and the ability to slice them uh very, very thin. Uh and all Americans grew up who grew up eating Americans that grew up eating uh prosciutto uh and other crude-style hams grew up eating it this way. And I have to say I like it.
+
+[22:00] I like a cross-cut ham. Cross-cut ham is five thousand times like I don't know, it's more supple. It hangs like a fabric in your hands, you can put up to your nose, sniff it in a way that you can't, I think the long kind of stiffer strips. Um and I I like it. And it's and it sections a different thing.
+
+[22:17] Instead of sectioning along the length, it sa except uh it sections whatever particular muscle group you're on right now all the way through. So I like it. Uh but that said, it's a matter of taste. I don't believe, as other people believe, that there's a right answer or wrong answer. I think it's what you want.
+
+[22:30] If you want that more tender, thinner slice, go cross-cut. If you want to sample all the different uh pieces and you like that textual variation, go uh go horizontal. But I will say it's incredibly difficult to try to make good cross-cut slices by hand. So if you don't have a meat slicer, I would I would slice it more traditionally. Get a like a long, thin uh or straight slicer and and learn to strike a slice uh serrano style.
+
+[22:55] Make sense? Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, as for uh what was the middle part of the question? The middle part of the question was um quite a bit of meat already exposed.
+
+[23:04] So the fact of the matter is is that any meat that you leave exposed will uh you you want to keep it in you know not too dry an environment or it's gonna overdry, it's gonna dry out. But any piece of meat that you leave exposed will end up, depending on how long you store it, drying out to the same extent that a um that the face so if you look at a ham like a standard like American country ham, there is a portion of the meat that's exposed, uh, you know, where you severed the leg from the pig, right? The face of the of the ham there where you severed the leg, there's that exposed meat. And eventually any cut surface will approach the same level of desiccation as that face section of meat, which maybe you like, maybe you don't. I would believe that any oil covering would uh help somewhat ameliorate um that problem.
+
+[23:53] You could probably even literally store it in oil, you know what I mean, with a complete cover of oil, like in a gallon zippy with like oil around it to prevent. I don't know, I've never tried it, but I'm sure that would work. But that said, the old school folks, and in fact, in um mountain in Spanish mountain hams and in Italian Italian actually in Italian hams, right, they'll uh I forget. Do you remember what they mix in with the with the lard? They mix some sort of flour with the lard, but I forget what it is, and paste it over the face.
+
+[24:20] That's why the face of a prosciutto is that kind of like whitish uh color uh when they're when they're curing it. Um and that prevents um rapid moisture loss through the face, and so what that means is is that is that the the meat will be relatively similar levels of dryness throughout the uh muscle. Whereas if you look at a cross-cut of an American ham, you'll notice that the meat that's closer to the face is substantially darker, substantially drier, has a different texture and different taste, therefore, than the main cushion of the meat, which is up and usually very very much softer. So anyway, and in the old days, yeah, you would rub lard and probably with some other mixture or some crap with it so that it doesn't drip out on you. I don't know.
+
+[24:59] Uh and that's what uh I remember I think it was Morris uh burger from Burgers uh smokehouse uh in uh Holly, I think I believe they're in Hollywood uh in the Ozarks, but the town's called H I think it's the town's called Hollywood, which would be pretty awesome. Anyway, he used to say that what they would do is they would go out, they would hang their hams on a wire because the the rats in the barn couldn't hold on to a wire, right? So they couldn't climb down a wire to get to the hams, and then they would slather uh lard, they would cut the piece off, they then they would slather it with lard and hang it hang it back up on the wire, and that's the way they would keep their hams out in the barn when he was a kid, and then they would go scrape off, slice another uh frying slice out, and then put the the the lard back on and go, and that's how they would keep it. So that that should work fine. Now as to where you should keep your hams.
+
+[25:46] I used to hang my hams. There's two there's three, there are several enemies to hams. So the first and uh enemy is over-desiccation. Uh I would guess probably in San Francisco, that's not gonna be too much of a of a problem. Um the other two enemies are um bugs, specifically like things that bore into the the meat, these like little beetles.
+
+[26:10] Uh I I hate them. I hate them. And you can see like you'll get like little boreholes in your ham where those freaking beetles get in. Now, this is where screening is gonna help you, right? And any sort of uh thing like that is gonna help because once they hit, they'll hit all the hams that you have that have exposed uh meat, right?
+
+[26:27] So the bag should probably prevent this, like the cloth bag will probably prevent this. Uh some papers and sacks probably prevent this. Uh so you you won't have that problem. The other problem is freaking mites. Now, mites they form like a dusty powder, and you'll notice a dusty powder accumulating under your hams because these mites get there, and I don't think any screen, I'm not sure, but I don't think any screen is gonna prevent you from getting once you have the mites on the ham.
+
+[26:53] And for me, it was I brought a mighty ham in, mighty ham. I brought a mighty ham in, and then all the rest of my hams got contaminated with the mites. And I spoke to um I spoke to uh uh Sam Edwards from S. Wellis Edwards and Sun, uh a supporter of our network, by the way. Uh, and he was like, Yeah, like unless you have treatments for it, like in your home, you don't typically treat for mites, unless you treat for it, like once you get a mite in once you get mites in there, you're you're you're you're done.
+
+[27:20] You're gonna have the mites. And and nobody the mites they make that powdery stuff. I mean, I don't know that they hurt the ham, but it's kind of an irritant. So uh storing it in the fridge. The problem with storing it in the fridge wrapped in paper is that uh you'll get some moisture coming up to the surface there, and I've gotten mold on the paper, which is not a big problem, but you have to kind of wash it off.
+
+[27:38] So I would just kind of hang it out, maybe in your California cooler. I think it should be good. Temperature fluctuation, not bad, it'll just keep aging. You just gotta worry about over-desiccation, uh, which you could probably fix using uh some form of lard spread over the face of the meat or some stuff like this. Yeah?
+
+[27:51] Yeah, yeah. Let's take a break. Come back with more cooking issues. Uh-oh. Well, we're not?
+
+[28:00] No. We're not going to a commercial break. Alright. Jackie Molecules not ready with his um uh, hey what's up guys, it's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So here on the break to tell you about molecularecipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler.
+
+[28:59] So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resources, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes dot com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets.
+
+[29:32] Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place. Molecular recipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout. That's promo code Heritage. So again, check them out.
+
+[29:49] Molecularecipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. And we're back. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
+
+[30:01] Did you say invisible foods, Jackie Molecules? Can't see them. Can't see them? How do you know how to shove a food? If you go to the website, you'll see.
+
+[30:10] There's like invisible raviolis and stuff. Oh, you see, see through. You can I guess it would be see through. Yeah, I mean, in like I'll tell you what, if I could sell invisible food, I'd be a rich man. Look at all the invisible food in front of you right now, Jack.
+
+[30:23] Pay me. Transparent and see-through. I like that. I like transparent see-through. I as you all know, anyone that's met me knows that I enjoy uh I enjoy some clarified products.
+
+[30:37] Yeah, some distilled products. Listen, go to the go to their website, check it out, and you know, hopefully you're gonna find something that you desperately need and order it to show that that you know their sponsorship is is worthwhile. Am I right, Jack? Yeah. I'm eating invisible scallops right now, by the way.
+
+[30:52] Oh my god, how do they taste? Really good, they're seared perfectly. Really? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[30:57] Even the searing is invisible? Yep. Dang. Dang. You know, remember the first um time someone I remember uh because uh the Rokas, right?
+
+[31:07] So the you know, Jordy the brother, Roka, who's the pastry chef, or I guess still is at uh El Clark and Roca, um, he was using their rotovap because they were kind of pioneers of rotovap, and he was making all of these perfectly colorless, clear desserts, like with the flavor of X, Y, and Z, like years ago. It's kind of a mind blowing uh mind blowing experiment back in the day. Uh way back in the day. Anyway, okay, uh, questions. Uh Eddie and all writes in about pepper.
+
+[31:35] Hey, Dave and the crew, I'm in love with the oils produced via the Chef Step technique. So you look up on Chef Steps uh thyme oil. Uh so basically they do uh they bag they vacuum bag and then um cook their uh the time with the oil and other spices at 55 C for Celsius for three hours. Uh okay. So far we go through a ton of time in rosemary oil at my house.
+
+[31:57] Now thinking about adapting that method for black pepper oil. Obviously, we'll need longer extract time and heat question. And he uh but where would you start on a process for that? Thanks. Uh Eddie, okay.
+
+[32:11] Well that's a good question. Uh I've never I've never since I haven't done it, right? I'm like I'm not gonna give any l numbers here. What I'm gonna say is I would I would set up uh test batches, small test batches. So the first thing you're gonna uh want to do is I would test a range of uh the short answer is no, I don't have any recommendations.
+
+[32:33] Here's the long answer. I would set up a bunch of test batches with a different uh kind of grinds of the pepper. Different peppers, first of all. I mean, obviously you know black pepper is not a a kind of unitary thing. You can get like Malabar, you can get telecherry, you can get a you know, a bunch of different uh kinds.
+
+[32:48] And so even like a trip, if you live here in New York, you can just go to Calustian's uh or even a dual specialty or any of these places and you can buy five or six different kinds of pepper. And we used to do that. Remember we used to have those pepper tastings in time? Did you like that tasting? Yeah, that was fun.
+
+[33:02] We did it basically on butter with bread, right? Because the butter helped like spread it out, and so so we would just do butter, bread, and pepper. We'd smell it by itself. And in fact, there are stark and huge differences between the different kinds of uh peppers, right? Yep, yeah, yeah.
+
+[33:16] Even you agreed. Yes. Yeah. The lady who thinks it all ketchups tastes the same. Um the So back to back to this.
+
+[33:24] So what I would do is I would first uh try to figure out which kind of pepper you want to use, and then I would try uh whole, uh cracked, uh, and fine. And then I would because I've I've done pepper with uh with liquor, right? In fact, I think I have one by black pepper tincture in in the book, and for that I tested a variety of grinds, but I've never done it in and a variety of peppers, but I've never done it in uh oils. That's why you have and then I would test a variety of temperatures uh and then I would see test those temperatures to see which temperature regime you like best in terms of balance, and then after you do uh and I would test like maybe three different temperatures, like low, medium, and high, and then uh and then in between those temperatures I would test probably another two, and then I would test duration of time. So you're gonna have to run a bunch of tests, but in the end you'll be able to get um something that you really like, and then you can tweet us back and t tell us tell us what you like.
+
+[34:15] But I'll say another thing is that uh I'm reminded years ago, Steingarden called me on the phone, and he's uh Jeffrey Steingarden, you know, like one of my uh you know, culinary writing idols. Um recently. Yeah, or talked to him recently. Anyways, um remember when he was on the show? Yep.
+
+[34:34] That was fun. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You like him because he's mean to me. Yes, I do.
+
+[34:38] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Um I wonder whether he'd come back on the show. Uh yeah.
+
+[34:42] Jack, should we get some Steingarden back on the show so? Yeah, man. Love Steingarden. Yeah. All right.
+
+[34:46] So uh anyway, so he said to me, he says, You are an idiot. Uh like everyone else, you add pepper at the beginning of cooking, whereas it's known via studies that uh that you know, basically the the awesome aroma of pepper volatilizes, you know, within minutes after adding it, and all you're left with is the bitter taste. To which I replied, but Jeffrey, I like that bitter taste. You know what I mean? And so we got gotten an argument.
+
+[35:11] But what what it leads to is this idea that you can have uh just like hops where you can add kind of a bittering hop and then an aroma hop right you can add pepper at the beginning of a cook for for its bitterness and then at the end for aroma. So with your oil and I do that actually with um when I'm doing uh hop infusions um hop infusions into alcohol I'll do some heated and some cold right you might also experiment with pepper with oil by the way using an EC to try and get a a higher pressure to pressurize stuff into the pepper. But the point being is that you're gonna get different results because pepper oil is extremely volatile. Here's another little wrinkle I read a paper or tried to read a paper I didn't really have time called Thermal properties of black pepper and its volatile oil by type is too small here um Merladar Megwal uh and TK uh Gaswamy 2011 and I was hoping for some like like hardened fast numbers which they didn't give it but it it suffice it to say the one number that did stick out in my head was that um the volatile oils are solid uh below about 38 degrees Celsius and and they in the introduction they mentioned that the grinding even kind of normal grinding can heat pepper up substantially and change the composition of its volatile oils by volatilizing some of them. So uh and they said cryogrinding is one way you might get around it.
+
+[36:25] So another interesting thing you might do to try to get uh an infusion of flavors that you would get in a whole peppercorn but doing it uh more completely in a ground fashion would be to cryo grind your pepper keeping it below about 40 degrees minus 40 degrees Celsius minus 40 degrees your average fridge does about minus 20 so we're talking about like uh storing it in dry ice for a while and grinding it or using Ln to grind it, but that might give you a different result, which would be a whole interesting kind of thing. So some things you might want to think about is this kind of um, you know, pre-pepper, post pepper, similar to kind of dry hopping, to try to get the uh the the bitterness out of one and the aroma out of another. Another thing you might want to look at is maybe uh doing like a super chilled uh like a cryo grind to see whether that gives you something different versus the normal just playing with temperatures and times. But hopefully this is some food for thought. Yeah?
+
+[37:10] Yeah? Yeah. Stas is like, yeah, okay, move on. Um, we have a question in from Brooke in uh Tribeca, and Brooke writes it the official style with the capital T, the capital B, and the capital capital C. Do you you ever do that?
+
+[37:25] No, no. No? No. No? I guess if I live there, maybe I would.
+
+[37:29] You really yeah. Uh yeah. Yeah? What are your feelings on Tribeca? I don't really like it.
+
+[37:34] Do you? Uh I mean, back in the day, Tribeca was like, you know, it was the sh it was the shizzy, you know what I mean? Like that's like the artists they couldn't afford to live in the Soho, so they moved down to Tribeca. Now it's like super fancy. My wife used to live in that's where isn't that where easy and Beyonce?
+
+[37:49] And that's the only reason you like that event, right? Is you can look out on Beyonce's apartment and hopefully she came out once, right? Yeah. And you were like, oh, Beyonce. Right?
+
+[37:57] Who my brother calls Beyonce or used to. Anyways, uh, love the show. New listener. Quick question about making fresh cheeses, specifically ricotta. What are your thoughts on Ricotta Stas?
+
+[38:07] I like it. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Oh, all right, fine. No no problems here.
+
+[38:10] Uh is there any advantage to using a circulator to make something like ricotta versus a quick stove top method? I recently used a ricotta recipe that called for cooking the entire milk cream acid mixture in a bag for one hour at 172 degrees Fahrenheit. That's pretty damn specific. What's that in Celsius? Can you look it up for me, Stas?
+
+[38:28] That sounds like the kind of thing that someone came up with a Celsius recipe and then just hit convert. What is it? 172. It's good I I bet you it's pretty close to an even five degrees somewhere in Celsius. Let's see what it is.
+
+[38:41] Wave for it, people. Stas Stas's fingers are f fast like lightning, but you know, the Google in here is not necessarily so fast. Um while she's finding that, I'll continue the question. But traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the curdle. Uh well, you know what the thing you didn't tell me, Brooke, is like what would the result.
+
+[39:00] Celsius? 77 something? No, that's not a good one. So no, that is a real number. 77.
+
+[39:04] No one would. 77.777. Yeah, okay. But who would choose 77.777? You said 172, right?
+
+[39:12] Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So they must have meant that. But you didn't tell me what the what the results were.
+
+[39:17] So I don't know whether or not you enjoyed that 172. Uh anyway, whatever. Moving on. But traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the curdle. While we're on the topic, what's better?
+
+[39:27] Whole milk or milk with some heavy cream? Uh, and is there any difference in texture between lemon juice, distilled vinegar, and white wine vinegar? Or is that just a taste preference? Many thanks and congrats on the nomination. Uh Best Brook from Tribeca.
+
+[39:39] Yeah, the nomination for the beard and one won an IECP. Jane Grigson award. Oh. Yeah. Hey.
+
+[39:46] Yeah. Should I get another bottle of per second? Uh no, I think we're I think we're all we're all right. Okay. But we but uh yeah, I didn't even know I was up for award.
+
+[39:53] And uh you didn't even go. You weren't even invited to the event. I was not even, yeah, it's not that I didn't go, Stas. I know. Not invited.
+
+[40:00] Yeah. Not invited. You know why? No. It's the equivalent of like the carnation thing.
+
+[40:04] Like I wasn't up for any of the things that had been nominated, right? But but like the judges have like just special judge awards. They're like, meh. Maybe they should have won something. I'll give it to them.
+
+[40:14] You know what I mean? Let's not invite them. Let's not invite him, though. We won't invite him. Last month you weren't even nominated.
+
+[40:19] Now you're a winner. I know. Now but that's what I'm saying. I've w I've won. I've won something, so now my you know, my losing streak is over.
+
+[40:26] That means I have no more my hair has been cut. Like Samson's won because it wasn't a category. But no, actually, against anyone. Uh, excuse me, though. Were you up against anyone?
+
+[40:35] It's an award. Come on. Not only is it an award, not only is an award, but like it's pretty badass. Jane Grigson was the she's uh was a well known, I believe she's British writer. She died, I think in the nineties or something like this.
+
+[40:49] And uh, you know, I guess her most famous book here in the States was uh charcuterie. And anyway, she is a fantastic was a fantastic writer, right? And so this um and very influential, in fact, and this uh this award, the Jane Grigson Award, is for you know heavily kind of researched and thought out and like deep deep dives, basically. And I love deep dive. And I, you know, I love her writing, you know, and ha have for decades.
+
+[41:17] So, you know, super dupe honor to get the Jane Grigson Award, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[41:23] Anyway. So Stas just wants to do anything to make me feel like it wasn't a it's a it's a great award from the International Association of Collinary Professionals. And I think that's a good one. Do you get a thing on your book? Do I get a thing on my book?
+
+[41:33] Uh I don't know. I don't know. I don't know whether I'm not, you know, I don't I don't know. I'm not at liberty to say whether I get a sticker on my book or not. Do you know why they put stickers on books?
+
+[41:42] So they sell more. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I don't know whether they work in Amazon. Like it used to be you would go to uh you would go to a bookstore and you'd see it.
+
+[41:52] And you'd see a sticker, and you'd be like, Do I want to know what this idiot has to say? Or this idiot. Well, some other idiot gave this idiot an award, so they must know what's up. I feel like when the stickers were on the books of like the books in elementary school, it's the ones you wanted to avoid because they were the long, laborious. The tough reads, yeah.
+
+[42:11] What, like Caldecott's and those kind of awards? Yeah, you'd be like, oof. I'll tell you what though, for a for a children's book author, especially, like, unless you win some of those big awards, I think it's hard to do numbers because there's so many kids' books out there that you know you need some sort of because parents, when they're buying kids' books, right? There's the big well, am I buying something that's gonna be good for my child's brain? I'll get the one with the with the freaking award.
+
+[42:34] You know, on it. And I think the same goes for cookbooks. You know, the cookbook has the sticker on it. No, yeah, for sure. You know, the assumption is that there's some useful information in there that's gonna help because it is you know, cooking a recipe out of a book is kind of a it's kind of a for a people who don't cook necessarily every day, it's kind of a big whoop, you know what I mean?
+
+[42:51] Like they go through the big rigmarole of getting the ingredients and all this other stuff. It's kind of a big you remember back when you used to be like that? Mm-hmm. I remember that. You might you know my first cookbook that I cooked out of that I owned that was given to me.
+
+[43:03] Uh man, the title of it. The Julia Child's uh not her first one, but the what's it called? The way to cook. Yeah, I used to make so many recipes out of that damn thing. In fact, I still make some of those recipes out of that thing.
+
+[43:13] Anyways, uh what were we talking about though? Ricotta cheese. How the hell did we get on this guy? I don't know. How the hell does this happen?
+
+[43:21] So I'm not uh oh, she's she uh thank it was a congratulations on the uh award, that's why. Okay. Uh on the nomination. So I have not made a boat ton of uh acid curdled cheeses, be it you know, ricotta or uh paneer or you know, like a fresco or or things like this. But I'm gonna go I'm gonna go ahead and say that um you know, Kenji at w at Sirius Eves a long time ago did uh a bunch of uh tests on ricotta, and for him he didn't see a kind of a huge difference in uh the in the texture of the ricotta based on the temperature to which it's heated.
+
+[43:58] So he didn't see uh he didn't see it as being uh a big deal. And in fact, to prevent scorching, he even uh nuked, you know, nuked the stuff and just made sure that it was in the temperature regime uh that he wanted before he uh added um the acid to it. I'm interested in the one that you have where the acid is pre-added and then raised uh to curdle it to see what that is. But my feeling is is that while it's true perhaps that the he didn't get that much of a difference in texture with the different temperatures, it's a known fact that um that the rate of curdling is going to be different at different temperatures, and also holding a curd at an elevated temperature in a liquid for a length of time will continue to exclude water from it, making uh kind of denser, harder curd. So my guess is that that over very short periods of time the temperature might not be that big of a uh deal, but that over longer periods of time the uh temperature will become uh more and more of a big deal.
+
+[44:53] The other thing that's interesting, and I want I'd like to find if you could send me uh you know, or tweet me out like a link to the recipe that you followed uh in the circulator uh for it. One of the things that is really clear with any sort of gelling mechanism is that the final texture of the gel is very dependent on the conditions present at the time of gelling. So for instance, with alginates, if you use a soft calcium, right, not only does it take longer to set, but the gel will be less firm because the actual uh agglomeration of uh the alginate to it to itself, the the binding of the the alginate to itself, uh not only is it slower, but it produces a different texture. Uh, but that also aging it can increase the texture, but it's never that you know it increases uh make it harder, but it's never going to uh be the same in a slow set situation versus a fast set so the amount of acid you add the speed at which it curdles and the temperature at which it curdles it seems to me are variables that you could probably uh dork with and get um get different results the same goes true for acid the acid that you use um and again I haven't done extensive testing but you know according to you know what what I've read uh you know lemon juice is gonna taste like lemons buttermil substantially more so it's probably gonna affect the texture and it's also going to affect the um it's gonna affect the texture it's also gonna um affect the flavor at those at those kinds of of levels um but remember also is that different things with different acids depending on the rate at which you add them are going to affect the rate of curdling as well so the rate at which you add it is probably also going to have an effect similarly the draining time is gonna they all basically they all have effects in terms of whole milk versus whole milk and cream obviously the more cream you have the more fat you're gonna have so the the the more creamy it's gonna taste right um the other things you might futz with is uh you might want to add some extra calcium to the mix and the formula calcium chloride if you want a harder curve I don't know what you're trying to achieve so please send me a link to the recipe that you did because I'd love to actually try it out because I'm gonna do a bunch of side by sides especially because you know now that I have a Tandoor that I'm gonna go paneer crazy. Do you like paneer?
+
+[47:06] Mm-hmm. You do? Mm-hmm. Really? Mm-hmm well what the hell Stas and I are going to be doing uh paneer for days and that is the cooking issues thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[47:22] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org.
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+[0:05] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. It's middle, middle of the road. You kind of split the difference there. Yeah, what do you think?
+
+[0:16] It's pretty good. Yeah? Yeah. Alright. Alright.
+
+[0:19] Although most people like the loud, crazy one. Yeah, but then a lot of people said they liked kind of like, you know, like mixing it up. I think middle of the road might be fine. You know, it's I think generally people like surprises. Oh.
+
+[0:32] You know? Except me, hate surprises. Do you? No, it's not true. I like it.
+
+[0:36] I don't know. I mean, how was the last time you were truly surprised by something, Jack? That's a great question. I can't think of an answer off the top of my head. You think about it, we'll get back to it later in the show.
+
+[0:45] Meanwhile, call your questions in to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez next to me here with her vegetti. Wow. It's yours.
+
+[0:58] Oh. So Stas, open up your vegetti here on Air. Let's hear it. Wow. I need this guy.
+
+[1:18] So Claire sent us this uh bodicis uh vegetti, which for those of you that haven't been following the Vegetti Chronicles. Tear that sucker open. Is a a vegetable spiralizer. Now, it looks like um kind of like a an hourglass. It's got two sets of teeth.
+
+[1:41] Two sets of fajti teeth in different uh one's fine and one's coarse. And it's got a little pusher so that you don't get your fingers sliced off in the vegetti. Now, uh, Styes, why don't you go ahead and shove a cucumber into your vegetables? Zucchini. Start small.
+
+[1:58] She's now twisting it like a pencil sharpener. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Good sound, guys.
+
+[2:08] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we are foley experts. Um, let me see. That sound experts for you folks.
+
+[2:16] Yeah, I mean, it tastes like uh tastes like look, it's good. It doesn't get that. Well, Stas is trying to avoid the middle part, the seeds here. I mean, I could see these being used in a salad. I could see Guys, it tastes just like spaghetti.
+
+[2:34] It it's amazing. It's like you use starch. It's amazing. Um the cucumber is kind of cool. Let's try it, let's try it.
+
+[2:41] All right, hold on a second. Let me see. I bet you the texture. Oh, maybe we should have peeled it first there, Stas. Let me see here.
+
+[2:48] All right, all right. Let's see. Ready here? This is this is uh sampling the cucumber vegetti. I mean, look.
+
+[2:59] It's not a bad product. All the shots. As a topping or something. It's nice. Yeah.
+
+[3:05] I mean, I wouldn't cook that zucchini because it's gonna turn into like a mess of mess. Oh, she fries it. Which makes no sense because it's a sponge. For salads, that's good. Yeah, for the cucumber part, it's good.
+
+[3:16] But look at the it all gets compacted. Yeah, yeah, there's uh there's a bunch of stuff compacted into Stas's vegetti here. She better get out. All right, so what? We don't have a carrot.
+
+[3:31] No, I didn't know. Maybe they have a carrot in the kitchen they can bring to us later in the show and we can spiral up. That would be good. Like Fred topping. What?
+
+[3:38] Shredded carrot? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean look, obviously, like, you know, I got Asian on the microphone. Yeah. Oh, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[3:47] Hi, Dave. Um, Nasasha and Jack and everybody. Um my name's Bradley, I'm from San Francisco, and uh I had a couple questions for you. Um I found this podcast about seven weeks ago. Um and I'm unemployed, so I've listened to a hundred and four episodes in the last seven weeks.
+
+[4:02] Oh my god, get a job, man. But um you don't want to listen to that much cooking issues. It's gonna rot your brain. Well, uh I'm I'm I'm helping a refurb uh uh do a fan some family handyman projects, so I'm I'm listening to it while working. But um I I um my family does this thing called meat fest every year for my mom and my uncle's birthday.
+
+[4:24] They were born on the same day, and we get a whole ribeye, and um you know, you grill it all up. And so my goal this year was to um build a dry curing chamber and um dry age uh a ribeye that I got. Um and I had seen online that um like at GoPound salt that they put they had suggested using a tray of of rock salt uh or I uh of sea salt down below um as like a desiccant. And I was wondering if as long as um my humidity and temperature are controlled, if that's helpful or if that if that is just a a kind of um a bad way of cu uh keeping uh humidity uh relatively uh the same throughout the process. Yeah, that's a great question.
+
+[5:15] So um yeah, as far as my understanding of it is the salt is more for uh like you say stability of of the humidity, right? Because it's like the salt is gonna add saturation is gonna want to maintain a specific um humidity. I had always read so if you the first time I ever read this was, you know, decades ago in a now outdated book, what's it called? The sausage the sausage maker or something was was by Rytek Kutas, which was made oh it's got the book's gotta be from the eighties or something like that. But he was the first one I s you know saw recommending uh the salt in the curing in the in the aging or curing uh chamber as a as a humidity modifier.
+
+[5:59] But my memory serves me, he actually has a huge amounts of salt and some water there so that you know you could evaporate water into it or absorb it as needed, right? So it it would only be a desiccant until it turns completely to liquid if you were in an extremely humid environment. Otherwise it could be you know used the other way. It's it just keeps it's something at the same relative humidity. I forget what it is 'cause it's been a long time, but it's somewhere in the mid seventies, I think.
+
+[6:24] Is that right? Have you looked it up recently? It's like seventy-seven percent or something like this. Yeah, I I saw like eighty to eighty-five is what I saw. Um around there.
+
+[6:33] Yeah, I mean, some people just believe in the mystical power of salt in the aging room, period. So David Burke, you know, uh when he years ago did uh his steakhouse in Chicago, did uh an aging room and he literally tiled on the walls giant blocks of salt, which were pretty impressive, I have to say. And I think he was serving stuff on that, you know, on that Himalayan salt block stuff. Yeah. I have some of that.
+
+[6:59] Yeah, and it was pretty impressive. I don't know if it made a bit of difference or not, because you know, obviously, you know, there was no side by sides, but um it was impressive look cool. So so my setup is I've got uh a four point four cubic foot, Kenmore um mini fridge that I've um I'm rewiring to um include a temperature controller and and I I'm taking out the thermostat for the fridge and rewiring it to an Arduino along with a fan and a humidifier. But so if I have like that kind of setup and they're all you know with you know maintaining within normal range the salt is like a a fun extra but not necessarily something that I need. Well yeah except for this what so what is the if you're running the coils in the fridge right that that will automatically remove enough humidity to keep your humidity low enough right then if you have a humidifier to add back in then you can achieve any humidity you want without the salt right?
+
+[8:04] Right. Uh I mean a salt can maybe act as a as a buffer there but it's not necessary. The um if you weren't running cooling coils that were going to automatically dehumidify the the i i if you didn't have some way of removing humidity and adding humidity then whether or not salt would be helpful would depend on what the ambient relative humidity of your area is right. I forgot where you said you were calling from but it's San Francisco. Oh yeah.
+
+[8:35] So I mean you're pretty I mean like you're just air is pretty nice there right yeah um I mean it's it's pretty pleasant. It's it's a little damp um just because of the fog, although you know it's been nice recently. Um I guess it depends on what block you're on, right? Everything's a microclimate in San Francisco. Exactly.
+
+[8:54] Yeah, I I I I moved from the the the foggy side of the city to the warm side of the city. Um and it makes a huge difference of about five to seven degrees depending on the day. Yeah, that's so crazy to a New Yorker. You know what I mean? That whole concept is so crazy to a New Yorker.
+
+[9:10] Anyway, um so yeah, I would say that you know, it if in the in the f in the fridge you have the like uh it it will it dehumidify the fridge as it's working or is it some is it totally sealed? Like what is it old style so you can see the coils or is it new style so you can't see the coils? Um so I I haven't taken it fully apart yet. It's about half taken apart and I'm like in the process of building this. And one of the reasons why I was asking was because um, you know, if I have to put a Pyrex pan full of salt at the bottom, that's gonna change the way I configure it.
+
+[9:42] Um but it it it doesn't really ha it's pretty it's pretty sealed in there. Um there isn't really you know, there there's there's like um there's the uh there's the freezer component of the refrigerator that's got like two coils. But I was gonna try to take that out. Right. Well, except remember though, uh these units usually have like the single compressor and they're running everything off of the one.
+
+[10:08] So if you take the you're not gonna use the you're not gonna use the chilling of the fridge at all. No, no, I'm gonna use the chilling of the fridge, but I was gonna try to take the it's got like one of those like mini freezer components. Yeah. Usually that mini freezer component is actually what provides the chilling for the entire fridge. And it's just yeah, and it's I mean if it's the one I'm thinking about, and then um what happens is is they they concentrate and insulate the freezer area so that it stays frozen and then the rest of it kind of doesn't.
+
+[10:38] And that's why stuff that's up near that freezer box sometimes freezes over, like things like lettuce and ice. Um throughout the box. So um you know, the the you can shield off like the coil there a little bit so that it's not really chilling too much if you don't want to chill too much, but it's condensation onto those coils and then the melt off and you gotta drain the water out from those coils that's gonna dehumidify that chamber for you. Because if anytime you're freezing, anytime you freeze water out of the air onto a coil and then, you know, put it through a saw thaw cycle and drip out, that's how a dehumidifier works. You know, I mean that's literally what they are.
+
+[11:36] And so um, you know, having that in some like in contact with the air in the box is gonna definitely provide uh the dehumidification that you that it you know, therefore that you could add the humidity back. Otherwise, um I mean otherwise if and if you if you can't use that to hit the numbers that you want, then the salt might be something that's useful for you. Okay. Great. Well that's that's really helpful.
+
+[12:05] Um and then I I had another question. You had um on episode I think it was like ninety six, you uh were talking about uh coffee cocktail called a shake nado. Um and um you you said you were cold you were cold brewing the coffee directly into the liquor. And I was wondering if that was uh just grain spirits or what or like, you know uh as close to that as you can get um yeah and I was wondering what what liquor you were doing the cold brew in the extraction in the ISI. Um it we it depends kind of on uh my mood m what I use most often is uh a uh a dark rum the one that I and of those the one I use most often is uh called Ronsa Kappa which uh it it's called twenty three it's not twenty three years old they use like a Solera system so like you know one microliter in a bottle is probably twenty three years old but it's a it's a good nice um it's a good nice dark rum and I like it because it goes it goes well with the coffee.
+
+[13:07] But I you know that said I've done it into totally neutral as well. It depends on what you're shooting for. Like we're shooting for like a cocktail and the coffee flavor is extremely intense so you know two ounces of the uh but I also wanted a little bit of that kind of rum sweetness on the nose. But if you don't want that you could use you know you could use a a neutral a neutral spirit but we were using regular 40 proof um 40 proof liquor. In fact the uh the the recipe for the ISI the one I always use is the one that's in um in the liquid intelligence and if you the book and if you don't you know if you don't I I'm pretty sure you could do a look inside on Amazon and and s snag the recipe um for the I think it's called cafe za Kapa is what I call it in the book.
+
+[13:53] Uh and it's just um but you could substitute any kind of liquor you want. The key there is that a coffee infuses so quickly uh into the alcohol that you just have to be um pretty accurate with your grind, you know, um and pretty accurate with your timing. Otherwise it can just go intensely bitter. Just intensely bitter. You know.
+
+[14:14] And the whole idea of doing it that way is so that you don't need to add like a boat ton of sugar back to it to make it to make it um good. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, um there's a uh a race in San Francisco called Beta Breakers. Um it's like uh the most San Francisco of San Francisco holidays.
+
+[14:33] Everybody wakes up at uh you know 7 a.m. and does and pre-drinks for the race and then gets in costume and runs this race completely drunk and it's uh a complete mess. Um but I do a a pre-breakfast. So I was thinking about drinking or like making this as the cocktail. Uh last year we did a Kentucky breakfast.
+
+[14:53] Is it is it gonna be something that like you said being precise with is that gonna be something that is too difficult you think is gonna be too difficult to do um a la minute for a bunch of people um, you know, at at seven in the morning kind of thing, or is that is it gonna be um would that be a good application of that? Yeah, I would make the coffee liquor the night before, let it sit. Okay. And then, you know, and and it's it's no I I've done well just we did that cigar event, how much of that stuff do we bust out? A lot.
+
+[15:24] A lot lot, right? So it's no problem. You can bust out like a lot lot of it. Um it's and and it'll hold overnight, no problem. Um and then just shake it, shake it in the morning.
+
+[15:35] Uh, you know, and then you could do the either the milk the the version with milk or the version without milk, depending on, you know, kind of what you feel like. But already, like I, you know, man, running when you're drunk, that's painful. Why do people do that to themselves? Oh no, it's so much fun. So, like what we do is so, like last year I made strawberry buckwheat pancakes with bourbon uh whipped cream and had Kentucky breakfastes.
+
+[15:58] And you're only going like two miles, and you don't like actually run. You more like walk and drink more. It's like uh like it's like a it's like a two-mile, it's like a bar crawl, except there's no bars, and you just bring all of your alcohol and everybody's drinking in public, and it's the one day of the year where the nudity ban is like is um not in effect. So, you know, there's costumes and naked people and people throwing up, and it's it's it's the most San Francisco of San Francisco events. This is like Santa Con.
+
+[16:28] This is like this is like our version of Santa Con without frightening the children, or maybe with frightening the children without frightening the channel. Well, we do SantaCon. So like, you know, we we we're on that bandwagon too. This is like our own special thing. Um, but you know, you it's it's it's it's just this massive, they shut down the streets and they like have like, you know, um it's it's just massive.
+
+[16:49] And I know you hate block parties and being outside, but um it's it's it's it's really, you know, if if you ever wanted to, you know, people do all sorts of weird stuff, and it's just kind of insane. Um collective insanity. A quarter of a million people show up every year to do this. So listen, try that try that recipe out and tweet us at cooking issues. Let us know how it worked out, and let us know how this the uh your uh curing chamber worked out.
+
+[17:18] Uh yeah, I will. Thank you uh for letting me bogart the show. All right. Uh uh. All right, we got another call.
+
+[17:24] Actually, a few more calls. Yeah, so let's take the next one. All right, cool. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, I just wanted to give you a little bit of encouragement and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
+
+[17:33] You have to continue the intro with your show in the full New York WWE introductory fashion, because that was the first time I heard your show. In fact, I think I I just happened to find your podcast, and I the first episode was one that uh Nastasha stole Christmas trees. Oh, yeah. But the intro, I'm sitting in my bed listening to the intro, and I'm thinking, what in the Sam hell is this? And then of course it turns into a great show with ransomware.
+
+[18:02] So don't let anybody change your introduction. Because when I started listening to the backlogs, as soon as I told the backlog, it was like, Hello, this is Dave, and this is like your MPR, and it was like, is this the same show? This is not right. There's so much more uh aggressive ideology here that I want to hear. So don't let anybody change that.
+
+[18:20] Uh anyway, my question was how do you uh clean your um cast iron? Do you use soap is the uh is the question? Yeah, I use soap. Uh you know, I use regular kind of uh, you know, the dishwashing stuff like uh like you have on the uh on the counter. Not the not the powdery stuff, obviously, but just like regular kind of hand dishwashing soap.
+
+[18:40] I mean, I don't let it soak there forever, but I use uh I just use Scotchbrite and uh and that soap and then wash it, give it a rinse, and then I I always, almost always, throw them back on the burner for like uh fifteen seconds on high heat just to heat it up, get all the water off of the pan so that it's dry, uh so it's not like sitting and do it. And I've never had a problem, you know, my you know ever. I mean it's I think it's the old the old uh cleaners like alkali-based cleaners uh or alkaline cleaners can hose it because it can start breaking down the surface. But that polymerized oil surface isn't isn't you know, Dawn ain't cutting that grease. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[19:24] Totally. Um, and you know, I think aggressive scrubbing can probably be uh m might be able to cause you a problem, but like the regular, like uh, you know, I don't use steel wool on it, but I use Scotch Brights and you know, chore boys and stuff like that on them. And um, because otherwise they get all gunked up, you know. Yeah, exactly. And mine stay like pretty pretty slick, and I've I've used it on I have old uh polished pans, like uh an old I have an old griswall that's polished, and um, you know, that I've had for oh probably you know, t twenty-five years, and and it was probably 40 years old when I bought it, and I've never had a problem with that, and um and I have a bunch of uh lodge stuff that you know is newer, the kind of pebbled surface that's not polished, and it's also fine that way.
+
+[20:16] Of course, that the you know that those newer pans take a lot longer to build up to a complete like awesome non stickness than the old school ones, but my seasoning never comes off. In fact, they're the ones that pans I use most often, so I ha I scrub them all uh all the time because I have um I have like six of those uh like fajita pans and they just like they're they stack so easy, and so they I keep them right on a ledge above my my burners and spam a bam, but they're easy to get to, so I use them a lot, but all the wear down that grid. But uh yeah, you know, if you're gonna be an excitable New Yorker and frustratedly excited when somebody tells you that they don't like biscuits, there's no way you can go back to the MPR intro. Because eventually you're gonna get all excited. So just stay with the excitement.
+
+[21:01] Alright. Fair enough. What do you think, Jack? Sounds good. I got another call waiting, so it's yeah.
+
+[21:05] So all right. Well, thank you. Thank you for the uh call. What do you think, Stuzz? Stas is shaking her head.
+
+[21:10] Even though this is radio, not TV, she is merely shaking her head up and down, which is classic stuzz. But thank you for calling in and uh No, next time, we'll go back to cooking issues. Um caller, you are on the air. Hey, how's it doing, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, and the rest of the crew? Hope everyone's well.
+
+[21:28] Yeah, doing well. We're enjoying the nice weather, but Nastasia hates nice weather. Do you know why Nastasia hates nice weather? This is nice weather. What do you mean it's not raining?
+
+[21:37] It's gloomy. But oh, you like gloomy. Nastasia hates nice weather because she doesn't like it when people enjoy going outside. I I used my Twitter and I was feeling great and it was sunny out, and I said something on Twitter. I was like, I'm a change man in the sun, and then somebody tweeted at me and they were like, Don't tell Stas that.
+
+[21:53] Yeah, because she hates when people enjoy the outside. Especially hipsters. Anyway, sir, go ahead. Sorry. I'm also a vote for your your enthusiastic opening, but that's that's a side note.
+
+[22:05] Awesome. Um if you're aware of any other modernist technique that you can make black garlic outside of the long and slow method. Did you write in the black garlic question? Okay. Just how would you go about making garlic if there's a quicker way of doing it?
+
+[22:26] Because the world is so crazy. This happens so often. Like we have a question someone sent us on black garlic, uh, which is totally separate. So and you know what's unfortunate? We have to get I don't know if you can get Johnny Hunter on the um uh on the phone, Jack.
+
+[22:41] But he has I was t literally talking to Black Gar, but he was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and uh I was talking to him about black garlic, because they make it, and then he said, Yeah, someone makes it in like in like a couple of days, and I think they just do it by jacking the temperature higher. But I couldn't remember what the protocol was that the guy used. So for those of you that don't know, uh who are listening to the program, so black garlic is something, and like uh uh from all accounts that I can read, it was fairly recent in invention. Um but the basic principle is you keep uh whole garlic cloves, uh whole garlic heads rather, uh, you know, skins on and everything, sealed in a container so that it doesn't they don't dry out. Uh and you you let them go for at like 60 degrees Celsius, like 140 or thereabouts, you know, like within plus or minus uh five five, six five, ten degrees, and you keep it for like a month or a little longer.
+
+[23:42] And uh people mistakenly call this fermentation stars, but it's not really fermentation because it's not it's not a it's not a bacterial or uh or a fungal thing of crap. It's just you know, it's it's this stuff's breaking down over time at this elevated temperature. And what you get is this kind of like awesome sweet black garlic uh that is is is awesome, but it's expensive. So a lot of people make it themselves. But and you know, the the the only way I've ever done it is in my excalib food dehydrator, but people do it in their rice cooker, for instance.
+
+[24:17] And in the rice cooker, rice cookers are a bit hotter, they're at 165 degrees uh Fahrenheit. And I've heard people say that two weeks in a rice cooker might be enough, you know, on the keep warm function. But uh I forget what Johnny said. Uh I don't know if we can get get them or not, but uh if not I can tweet him and have him tell me what what the other guys were using in in Madison. They're upset today, by the way.
+
+[24:38] Losing the Madison, the Badgers, they lost yeah yeah yikes. Anyway, oh badgers. It turns out it wasn't badgers, it's mushroom mushroom anyway was that actually done by someone in university of Madison anyway I digress the the point is is that yes there is a way to speed it up I don't know the protocols but it doesn't taste quite the same it still tastes good but it's not the same because anytime you're working with these uh reactions that take place over a long period of time that are very complex whether they be Mired or any other kind of reaction like this the flavor you get depends on every factor involved including the rate at which it happens and so um speeding it up you might get something that looks the same but it probably and according to Johnny doesn't taste the same doesn't taste bad and it's not necessarily a question of better or worse it's just it's gonna be different. Does that make sense? Fair enough yeah but if I can get him on the phone I'll figure out what what it is to speed up because he said that these guys were getting it in like in a couple of days.
+
+[25:33] Like like I think it was under under a week which would be awesome. I mean it's not like a 10 minute thing but uh and you know what I wonder like what else like what else have people experimented with I know the Nordic food guys lab uh the Nordic food lab folks uh did onions and shallots the same way and they said that that those were um good. You know the thing is is that alliums are so complicated that uh you know a lot of interesting stuff goes on but I have like a rice cooker that'll stay keep warm for like you know weeks and weeks. I should just just keep random stuff in there and see what happens to it. I kept uh I've only kept rice warm for three days.
+
+[26:12] I was hoping I would get some sort of miracle rice after like three days of keep warm, but it didn't. But maybe I should have left it for like two weeks. Like maybe I'll just like divide up my rice cooker, like have some rice there, some onions, some garlic, and some other random stuff, and just keep it on keep ro warm for like a month and see and like kind of note the changes that happen to a bunch of different food stuffs. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally.
+
+[26:36] Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Anyway, I'll let I'll uh I'll I'll either tweet it on cooking issues or uh if Johnny gets back before the end of the show, I'll have him uh figure uh you know tell us the fast way to do it, alright. Excellent. Sounds good. Thanks a lot, man.
+
+[26:50] Alright, thanks for calling. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? All right, doing alright. I have to say I like the loud intro a lot more.
+
+[26:59] Nice. Nice. So we know that our c our core folks, the folks that are willing to call in, they like the loud. That's who matters. Yeah.
+
+[27:06] Yeah. Gotta play to the core, baby. I got two totally unrelated questions for you, so start with the first one. I run a pop-up bar and I do a lot of home infusions and things like that. And I've tried filtering with coffee filters, which are terrible, and Buchner funnels, which are a pain to use, and water filters, which I'm worried strip flavors out to activated charcoal.
+
+[27:30] They do. But I read all of Liquid Intelligence and read all of Cooking Issues blog, and I understood in your clarification technique, but I don't have a centrifuge. So I'm wondering if agar clarification works on infusions or just blended things like your strawberry gin for the first question. Right. So I have agar clarified liquor, but I'm not super jazzed about it, to be honest, because it strips it just strips a lot of flavor, and um and you you end up having to add some uh water because you gotta hydrate the agar and water, and um because you can obviously the temperatures uh you can't reach the hydration temperature of agar in straight booze.
+
+[28:19] Uh and so I've done it, but I just don't like it. You know what I mean? It's like uh agar clarifying juices, yeah. But like doing the agar clarified booze, I've never been super I've never been super happy with it. I tried it once because I did uh an event in um in South America once and I couldn't get a centrifuge and I was trying to do I forget what it was, it was something like it was something like strawberry and gin, but uh but a as a whole, you know what I mean?
+
+[28:49] And I just I just wasn't happy with it. Um I'm not saying that you couldn't find something you're happy with, and it will work, right? Yeah. But it's just the flavor is not uh gonna gonna be that that good. Now you could you could uh it you could maybe treat it as something that's pre watered a little bit, right?
+
+[29:08] But still I think you're gonna strip a lot of flavor out. So like in other words, if you were going to do like a carbonated drink where it didn't matter that it was gonna come out more watery, then sure, you could take an infusion, hydrate the agar in the water, uh, and then like temper it back in, trying to keep the alcohol percentage somewhere around twenty, maybe twenty, thirty percent. Uh well say twenty, and then and then agar clarify, your yield might not be that high. Your proof will probably go up a little bit over your base level because the water's gonna be preferentially held onto the agar a bit, and y it'll clarify and it might taste good for something carbonated where you need like a lighter flavor anyway, but I don't think it's gonna work that well for let's say a stir drink. Do you think that um if a charcoal in a water filter would strip less flavor than agar, or am I just should I just plug down for a century.
+
+[30:00] Well I mean the charcoal does clearly strip flavor. I mean you know you you can taste it it strips flavor. Right. E even if you take something that's clear for instance so you know you're not removing particulate matter then and you taste it you can taste a difference after it's gone through a charcoal filter uh like a Britta. Um in fact we used to run we used to run all of our smearinoff through Britta's to get rid of the you know any residual hospital nose on it before we were using it to do rotary evaporation back at the back at the school.
+
+[30:35] Um and uh but I was too cheap to buy the actual Brita holders so we used to take a torch and melt the bottom of core containers and then punch the filters through the bottom of cork containers. That's how cheap we are um some almost like you guys have such great facilities and literally like we're sitting there like melting the bottom of a core container with a torch and punching a brita through because we're too cheap to buy the pitcher for it. But whatever um so uh I mean look centrifuges are great and I think with within a year I will say within a year there will probably be centrifuge there will probably be a centrifuge that normal people can afford to have around within about a year I would say I mean I'm not gonna guarantee it but I would say that that I I mean I would bet on it. If if there's not I'm in big trouble let me put it that way. So, you know, if you can hold out a a uh a bit longer, you know, maybe maybe you should hold out a bit longer for the for the centrifuge.
+
+[31:38] Cool. Alright and I have another question about something entirely different. One of your favorite subjects, country ham. Ah, love it. So uh I was wondering uh if I want to serve it like a European dry cured ham, is it better to get one of the ones that have been aged for a year or more, or one of the ones that have been gone for like four to six months, okay?
+
+[31:56] No, no, no. Here's the problem. The four to six month ones are and some of them are like they're not that they're low low quality, right? But the way that the the they they the people who are good at it anyway at doing faster hams, um they they basically um they put it through faster cycles of uh of uh of kind of uh of like it would go through naturally and then they they keep it at exactly the humidity they need to to get the the thing as dry as possible as fast as possible, right? So on first inspection, these hams can look like a like a 12-month-old ham, right?
+
+[32:39] Um now, someone that's doing it, so okay, let's just back up a second. So if you were to take someone, let's say, like a Newsom's or an Edwards or uh, you know, Finchville or any one of these kind of like style Benton's caliber of hams, like completely traditional style hams, right? Yeah. And you were to open one of those guys up at seven, seven, six or seven months, right? So this ham would be okay then for like traditional American uh cooking, but the inside of the kind of like uh cushion area of the meat, the meaty part, is gonna be really tacky.
+
+[33:16] You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's gonna be impossible to slice without gumming. Forget the fact that the flavor won't be fully developed yet. But it in terms of sliceability, it's gonna be pretty tacky in there.
+
+[33:26] Um so one of the hams that's been meant to be released after, you know, a fairly shorter amount of time might seem like it's lost all that tack in there. However, I've noticed on slicing them, when you slice them and then let them sit, they can get kind of gummy tacky. They're not going to have the same texture. And also, there's no there's no way that you're going to get the same kind of um flavor uh in a quick in a quick uh thing as you will in a in a in a slow one because you'll have the drying, but you won't have the flavor development from protein breakdown and whatever else happens, you know, lip you know, lip oxidation or whatever the heck else happens in the ham as it's aging. That stuff just takes time.
+
+[34:10] And they're not accelerating the aging, they're just really accelerating the dehydration of it. You know what I'm saying? Uh and so, you know, what you know, what a what a country ham uh you know really wants is to go through, you know, um, you know, a full, you know, a full cycle of at least uh a year, sometimes you know, better, two summers, like at the you know, at the at the in the middle of that second summer, man, when they're like 18 months, that's like sweet. That's a sweet spot, you know what I mean? So question if if I have one that's that old and not naturally dried out, does it need to be refrigerated once it's been cut?
+
+[34:46] No. I mean, some people do, it depends on how you how you store it. I used like I say, I used to store mine out in my uh, you know, hanging. Uh the problem is is that you can get certain insects can attack it and you can get mites that hit the um that you know that that create a powdery residue around. That's why some of the old timers they used to spread lard on the on the cut surfaces.
+
+[35:09] Um but you know, the other thing is that sometimes uh, you know, when you bone it, there's like the you know you create a cavity there and like some molds can grow in there. Um you know, of course you can always trim away mold. Mold that that mold on the outside, as long as you trim it away, uh, you know, isn't going to kill you. You know, you just gotta, you know, like say, you know, tri trim it away. Uh the thing about uh storing it in the fridge is that you can store it in the fridge for even a relatively long period of time, but like I tend to some like get like weird kind of like sticky nastiness on where the paper, like say you were to wrap it in wax paper and put it in your fridge.
+
+[35:47] I get like some sort of weirdness on the surface of the meat right by the wax paper, and uh sometimes you can pick up odors from your fridge and vice versa. Like for instance, in the country ham fridge at Somme, uh, you know, the Sombar, like uh they put the for some reason they put the milk for the coffee in the country ham fridge, and that milk is like unusable. I don't know how those suckers are using it for coffee. They they must love ham coffee. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:11] So I mean the other thing is I don't have that much space in my fridge anyway, so yeah, so I wouldn't sweat it. I mean, like the you know, just uh, you know, I wouldn't have it necessarily resting against anything uh because you can get some like weird mold, weird context. I mean, I'd keep the bugs away from it. Um, and if you get if you happen to get mites, again, none of that stuff's gonna kill you. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:32] Uh you know, just trim away anything you don't like and you're good to go. I mean, this stuff is, you know, this stuff's survival food, man. Yeah, of course. And uh on final question, I know that Edward uses um heritage breed pigs like Berkshire and and whatnot. Are there any other producers using those kind of figs?
+
+[36:51] Um I think I think uh Newsom's might have bought some stuff from uh Patrick, and there's a there's a I just went out of my head, but there's a there's a company that produces some really expensive and very delicious hams that are all kind of mast fed. I saw them at uh Starchef, so you can look up the uh people who are, but the the name of the company just went right out of my head as I as I went to go think about it. But I think it's more and more ha gonna happen because I mean that's really where that's really where the future of American kind of country ham excellence lies is in um in the feed and and the the the meat itself. Like the like I've always said the curing is there. It's just uh the you know um they hadn't forgotten how to do that right.
+
+[37:33] You know what I mean? It's just the quality of of the meat that needed to be um kind of brought up. And I think we're getting there. Can I chime in here? Yeah.
+
+[37:40] I'm Sam Edwards, and I listen to Heritage Radio Network. Oh, nice. I just really wanted an excuse to do that. Nice, all right, nice. Sam Edwards actually one of the original sponsors of of uh the the radio the radio network.
+
+[37:53] Huge supporter. Yeah, he has sponsored the show from time to time, but uh, but you know, anyway, good man. All right. That answer your question? Hello?
+
+[38:05] Yeah. All right, nice. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Thanks a lot.
+
+[38:08] All right, cool. Thank you. Um okay. So uh we're about to get kicked off, but let me just go through what we're not gonna get taken break. Jack's gonna fake insert a break, right, Jack?
+
+[38:18] Actually, you know, I have another minute for another caller. I just the lines are off the hook today. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, is that me? Yeah.
+
+[38:27] Oh, hey, Dave. Um, on the intro note, go with whatever makes you happy. See, there's the first person that cared about like what we wanted. Stas doesn't care. This is what Stas just made.
+
+[38:37] Stas is making her head a her migraine head. Alright, I'll go with what's happy. Nice. Do you have a uh but I do have a quick question for you? I made your tea time for Easter brunch.
+
+[38:49] It was a great hit. Everybody loved it. Uh awesome drink. But there was so much good foaminess left in the bottom of the shaker. Is there a trick to getting that out?
+
+[38:59] Oh, that's a good question. Uh well, you see, you gotta know your like I don't know your shake technique, right? So when you shake, usually you shake, and then uh kind of like let it drain, and then I'll do a s I'll do a snap, like you know, I'll like uh I'm holding the the the shaker kind of pointed down with my um with my pointer holding the um holding the strainer onto the thing, right? And then I'll give it a s I'll give it a snap down and that'll get some last um little little bit little bit out. Um plus I always reshape strain it out?
+
+[39:37] I mean that's sorry, I couldn't hear you. What did you say? Was that are you using a hawthorn to strain? Yeah. So so here's the thing with a strainer, right?
+
+[39:46] So the bad hawthorns, um, when I say bad, I mean the cheap, like the normal kind of hawthorns that you use. Uh you have to be really be careful, otherwise you get like uh too many of different larger and weird size ice crystals coming out. I like like a couple of ice crystals in a drink because like I like that little crunch. The problem is that it's hard to control with those kind of older hawthorn strainers. That's why most of the um you know, a lot of the uh cocktail people for a long time who were anti-crystal, because there's a huge anti-crystal on the top of the drink movement for years in the cocktail world.
+
+[40:20] And that's why those folks, you'd always see them straining through a tea strainer, right? So they would have a hawthorn, which why would you use a hawthorn if you're gonna go through a tea strainer, right? Uh don't ask me because I don't know. Um except for the fact that they rest more conveniently. They're easier to hold than a juleup strainer, I think, in a in a tin.
+
+[40:36] Uh and then they would strain through a um um a tea strainer. Now the problem with a tea strainer, it's fine for a daiquiri, um, but for a milk wash product, which tea time is milk wash, there's a milk washing for those of you that you know, I don't know, go go look it up in the in the liquid intelligence, or it's been on the show before, I think, milk washing. There's a specific foam from the whey proteins in milk washing, and that is destroyed by uh tea strainer. So uh so I never use a tea strainer on that. And so uh that's why I use exclusively the uh cocktail kingdoms like fine m the the fine wired um uh hawthorn because it's like the best balance.
+
+[41:16] It doesn't let through an inordinate amount of crystals. Uh you don't have to worry about you know clamping the gate of your hawthorn down so hard to the shaker that you know you're you're you're having like white knuckles by the end of the evening and um you know and it doesn't hurt the foam. So that's what I use for it. Yeah, that's what I use as well, and I guess it's just the uh the snapping technique. Well that they go down easy, right?
+
+[41:45] Uh but the um yeah, just give it a snap and that's gonna get that other stuff out. I have had um bartenders who are used to the kind of older style like uh you know, fat wire hawthorns we'll call them or coarse hawthorns I'll call them, um, say that they that that they're not getting everything out of the shaker and that they're, you know, they kind of upset them, but then if you m if you just give it that last snap on the on the way out, I think you're gonna get most of that stuff back out of there. Alright, well, thank you very much. And that's a great drink for anybody who hasn't had it yet. Oh well, thank you.
+
+[42:14] Thank you. Good vote for the tea time. We we uh tea time styles, we do a lot at events because people people like them, right? Yeah, you made that for one of our events. It was good.
+
+[42:21] Oh, nice. All right, so we're gonna get uh ripped off, and we didn't get to any of the written in questions, but I will just describe them too. Which I like. I like that. Yeah.
+
+[42:30] But okay, so we got uh we had a follow-up on the ricotta, which we'll we'll talk about next week. We're back here next week, right? We're not anywhere, styles, right? Mm-hmm. Okay.
+
+[42:38] Oh what? We may our company wide meeting might run more of that. No, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna come here uh because it's more important. Uh and we had a question on cooking squirrel from Sam Geiger, which is gonna be interesting, uh, because I've never cooked squirrel, but I will talk about what I think. And we had a question on black garlic and what and uh and making a tea out of the black garlic skins and what and what thickens them.
+
+[43:01] And real quick, we have a Kickstarter uh for a new Heritage Radio website that will make especially my life really a lot easier. I I do all this like horrible HTML coding every day to get these shows up. It's completely unnecessary. All right, Jack, talk about the Kickstarter. Yeah, quick.
+
+[43:16] So the code's expiring on our website, it's gonna fall apart uh soon. So we have a new website that's gonna be built. It's gonna be really, really awesome, interactive, modern, mobile friendly. So go to Kickstarter, search for Heritage Radio Network. Every dollar counts.
+
+[43:30] Please, please, please do it. Well, what do they get all of us? So many perks. I mean, at the highest levels, you can get your own show on Heritage Radio. At the lowest levels, I make you some ringtones.
+
+[43:39] So what does it cost to get uh get your own show on the Heritage Radio Network? I think a full season is a five thousand dollar donation. So that'd be like a twelve episode, you know, season. That's pretty cheap though. They get they get you doing the production and all this other stuff.
+
+[43:51] Yeah, you should raise that to ten. Your own radio show. Yes, as well. So you like any one of you out here with an axe to grind and five thousand dollars burning a hole in the bottom of your pocket can come over here. It comes with free pizza at lunch.
+
+[44:03] Did I mention this? Yeah, we'll do that. Yeah, and uh no travel or accommodations though. And for a thousand bucks, you can do one show. One episode.
+
+[44:10] Yeah. You can have an hour to say whatever you want. Whatever you want. That's crazy. Whatever you want.
+
+[44:15] And they'll push it on the they'll push it on the what's it called there? On the website. You can push it on your yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, okay.
+
+[44:22] Uh that's great. And so we we know we didn't get to talk about uh next week. The Tandoor. I've got a lot of Tandoor stuff. I've been going Tandoor crazy.
+
+[44:32] Uh maybe I'll cook with Tandoor this weekend too, and uh we'll uh and we'll get back to it. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[44:59] You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwith Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello, and we're back with Cooking Issues live on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:32] I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and uh new new person joining us in the studio, Ben, who's trailing Jack for Engineering here on the Heritage Radio Network. Ben, why don't you tell us a little bit about something about yourself here? Uh just quit my job uh to work as a radio producer. Yeah, and I and I heard tell that uh prior to uh this you were a corporate attorney. I was, sadly.
+
+[0:54] Yeah, what kind of any any particular kind of corporate law? Like chopping them up, gluing them back together. Uh picking up the bankruptcy pieces. Ooh, fun. Fun.
+
+[1:03] Fun. We got Jack over there, and uh Jack has kindly given us a bottle of Prosecco to celebrate. Congratulations. Oh, yeah. Uh yeah.
+
+[1:19] Uh so uh last Friday, the James Beard Awards uh uh said that Liquid Intelligence was their favorite uh cocktail book of the year. Nice. Or as I texted Nastasia, because it was her birthday, by the way, so she was off in Brantford partying like a rock star, right? True or false? True.
+
+[1:35] Yeah. Uh so uh while she was partying like a rock star, I I sent her a text saying that I had won best hot food cold separator, which is the only thing she uses liquid intelligence for is separating the hot side and the cold side. That's all she cares about. She's like, but is it gonna keep I don't want my lettuce to get wilted. By the way, for those of you that are listening to me, like you can tell what Nastasia sounds like because you've heard her, and that's my invitation of her.
+
+[1:57] So you can see that my invitations of people bear no relationship to kind of what's going on. Uh hey Jack, are we gonna saber this? I don't even know if this Proseco will saber. Do you want me to open it like a person? I think you can open it like a person, maybe like.
+
+[2:09] You know, last time we sabored a bottle in the studio, it got all over the equipment and it was bad. Oh, Mimi, I'm a musician, and I don't want my equipment ruined. Yeah. Is that what I'm hearing from you? That was that was the voice I used.
+
+[2:19] By the way, by the way, Jack, uh, I noticed that even though today is sponsored by uh our our buddies, the you know, the molecular recipes, but you didn't play Jackie Molecules. Oh, we'll get there. Middle of the show. Uh I just don't want to miss it. I don't want to miss the Jackie Molecules.
+
+[2:35] It's been two, it's been two weeks. So what's been going on for these two weeks? Well, the first week, heritage oh, this is by the way, this is the sound of this is the sound of Nastasia suddenly getting happy, ready? Uh you want to pour that out, Stas? Um somebody somewhere just got a real shock in their headphones.
+
+[2:53] Oh, speaking of shock in the headphones, if you want to call in live, call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So anyway, we've been gone these past two weeks. Uh the first week, uh Heritage Radio was shut down. I don't really know why, but it was.
+
+[3:07] And last week I was in Mexico. Mexico, Mexico. For the first time ever. Because does anyone consider the border towns to actually be Nex Mexico? No, right?
+
+[3:17] I mean, no offense to those of you that live in like Juarez and Nogales and Tijuana. Like, no offense to you. But I mean, it's like, you know, Mexico City is pretty awesome. You Stas, you've never been there, right? No.
+
+[3:29] Even though you're half Mexican, you've never been to Mexico. Yeah, I have been to Mexico. Like, where you haven't been there. Where in Mexico are you? Uh I've been to Cancun and TJ.
+
+[3:38] TJ. I like that. TJ. It's like it's a dude, TJ. Anyway.
+
+[3:43] Uh so what were your thoughts on Tijuana? It's gotta be better than Nicolas. I was like five. It's gotta be better than Nogales anyway. Yeah?
+
+[3:48] Yeah. Anyway. Mexico City, amazing. In fact, the food, obviously, you know how everyone's like the food, the Mexican food here in New York blows, like the average Mexican food. I mean, I'm not talking about Cosme or any of the other stuff, but the average Mexican food here blows, and they're like, oh, it's so much better in California.
+
+[4:02] So much better in Mexico. I mean, it makes sense, right? I mean it being Mexican food. Uh so you know, I I guess I don't really have the time because I'm gonna run out before I get to all the questions to go through. But I did purchase, for those of you that, you know, are in the way back machine on uh the cooking issues, you know, many, many years ago I did uh uh a post on nixtamalization, which is the process of uh taking corn, uh, you know, soaking slash cooking it, par cooking it in um lime water, calcium hydroxide, right?
+
+[4:30] Lime cow cal, they call it down there, uh, and then uh soaking it and then uh grinding it to make nixtamol, which is the base of masa, I mean make masa, which is the base of you know, corn tortillas, right? Right. And for those of you that paid attention, the hardest part about the whole nonsense is grinding the stuff because oh, by the way, you know, it's like you know, the traditional grinding method styles is you know, the Matati Mano, the big stone, and I bought a crappy one on 116th Street, and it was useless. It was like a child's toy, it was so small, it was ridiculous, absurd. Like I don't even know.
+
+[4:58] So I was gonna buy one there, but they're so damn heavy, like a real one. Like the guy, this other guy who's gonna sell me one, swear to god, it was like 10 bucks, something like this. Like really nice. I was like, where's the the mono? Where's the you know the the the actual like rolling pin style wooden thing that goes?
+
+[5:13] I mean, uh uh you know, it looks like a rolling pin, but it's made of stone. And he goes, Well, here's one, and he gives me like a small, and I was like, I was like, dude, dude, I know that I'm like, you know, white as the driven freak in snow, like super gringo, but for Christ's sakes, you know, that mono is not matched to that, you know, matate. It's not gonna work. It was like stats. It was like a six inch mono and like this giant and like you know that if it had fit, I would have just duct taped to my back and told the airline that it was like a it was like I would have told the airline that it was like some sort of growth.
+
+[5:44] You're weak. What do you mean I'm weak? They didn't have the right stuff. The guy didn't have the right stuff. I gotta go to the right I gotta go to the right neighborhood next time.
+
+[5:51] Look I was by the way, I spent most of my time in um the Merced, which is like you know one of the main main markets in Mexico City with these with this group of uh women who were making um they weren't hand padding the tortillas so they weren't like full abuela but they were like making like they were pressing out with the fresh masa the the squash blossom quesadillas there are ridiculous. Like a we like we were all sitting around like a bunch of us were sitting around saying how much would this cost in New York right? So you go to the farmer's market, you buy a little plastic thingam crap of squash blossoms. How much is that thing stas? You shop for that kind of crap.
+
+[6:27] Seven. Yeah right okay so imagine this lady had what amounted to a like it was clear so it wasn't gross but a like large garbage bag full of them full of them right and remember she bought it like 50 feet away because they're at a market right rough chop she has a giant comal she just throws a giant like giant like cheese well so here's what she does she throws a giant giant pile of the stuff on the comal and just starts it going she has like a spatula and like a thing of like fresh oil because you know they also her fryer next to it for doing like gorditas and stuff, looks like an upside down sombrero. So it's got a big flat rim and then just like a basin that if imagine a walk with a giant wide brim on it. So like a like a gardening hat, you know what I mean? But upside down.
+
+[7:12] And so that's what she was like frying in. So she had a thing of fresh oil there, so she just went hip, and like like with the spatula, put a little bit of oil on the uh on the Florida calabasa, a little salt, right? And then she and this other lady were like the ma mystical masters of shredding like wax and string cheese, because they literally they picked up a block of the cheese and just like and was like these like threads of cheese. So like they cooked it down. She made the she she also was like super quick and consistent on making these very kind of long, very long, like foot-long, uh, like kind of narrow um uh tortillas that she would like put on the commodity, and then that's it.
+
+[7:48] She would slap the cheese on the thing with the Florida Calabasa, put the thing as salt, and that's it. And that's really all it needs. That's I mean, like, but you're not used to having squash blossoms like this because you need to stretch them. So you stuff them with things, or you uh you know, you dip them in batter and you fry them like a pancake, or you know, any any one of these numbers that they but who the hell can afford it? Why is their taste?
+
+[8:08] Is it a zucchini taste? Like what is it's so much better. You know how I feel about zucchini. I know. But what yeah, but like how do you describe it?
+
+[8:15] I mean, it's kind of I don't know, I can't really describe it. Delicious. First of all, it exudes juices, it's juiciness, but it's not watery, and it still maintains some of its crunch. I mean, that's what's so disgusting about zucchini, right? So it's like you know, I don't know, it almost has like a it's like a savory, it's not meaty because it's not that kind of chunk, but it feels substantial considering we ate like eight bazillion of these things, and plus like this the the cheese that they were putting on it was like so much nicer than the crap that we get in the supermercado, as they call them at my fine local fine fair, which is not necessarily a good place to buy this sort of product, but anyway.
+
+[8:50] Here in here in New York, it would have been like, you know, a $20 freaking quesadilla. And that's the thing, you know what? It'll be worth it, but no one would pay it because it's not high-end food. Like no one wants to pay that kind of money for something just because no one can afford to have the squash blossoms in it. I hear there's some places here that have very cheap squash blossoms, but I don't know.
+
+[9:09] Maybe okay, honestly, maybe each quesadilla had like one and a half of those containers. So you're looking at like seven and a half dollars worth of squash blossoms in each quesadilla. It's crazy though. But that's the way you want to do it. And I said to the lady, well, through an intermediary, because I don't speak Spanish.
+
+[9:23] I was like, I was like, hey, you know, do you uh, you know, do you get these all year or is this a spring thing? Because it was later spring. She was like, Oh, you're I was like, oh you bastards, you bastards. And uh another thing, try this in New York. So, like at a different market at the uh Mercado San Juan, where they have this, like they have the place that called Los Cayotes that sells all the weird meats and stuff.
+
+[9:43] I had the uh Jack, you're not drinking your per seco, you're making me angry. I'm sorry. Um they had the uh the ant eggs, the Escaval and like all the other weird stuff. So I bought some because I went there thinking that they were uh going to prepare them because they I was led to believe that they had them prepared in in you know tacos and whatever. And no, so I had to buy them raw, but I'm not not gonna buy it, right?
+
+[10:05] So then they're burning a hole in my refrigerator, like for a day, and as I'm leaving, I'm like, you know what? I bet you those ladies will cook it for me. Oh wow. Yeah. So imagine doing that in New York.
+
+[10:15] I walk up, they're like making this stuff. First of all, these late for those of you that like you know are professionals out there, you would love these people. I walk up to them, they have nothing going, none of the equipment's on, they have none of their meas, nothing. Nothing. At like eight in the morning, right when they open.
+
+[10:30] So I'm like, how long should I come back? She's like, 15 minutes. I'm like, really? So 15 minutes, we go back, and they're screaming. They already have stuff out of the out of the door.
+
+[10:37] They already have people being served. There's a lot to be said for the Mexican street kitchen. Amazing, amazing, mate. Anyway, so uh so I was like, you know, puedes cocinar with my best, you know, kind of gringo accent. So she yeah, she freaking cooked them for me.
+
+[10:44] They were good. Look, I talked to Rick Bayless about it uh on Friday because he was at the Awaris Award ceremony because his his um podcast won. Uh and uh, you know, he was like, Look, you know, they're good, they they're a little mealy like that, like if they've previously been frozen. Like next time I go, he says he has the source of like the hyper fresh, like the hyper hyper real, the verdad. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[11:10] So like next time I go, we'll get she also made us like these awesome, because I bought at the market like a whole boatload of wheat like coche, like nice wheat la coche, and so she cooked that. Great, great place. Love Mexico. Oh, reason I brought it up, I bought um a nix a nixtomatic grinder. The hard part about uh making uh masa is grinding it.
+
+[11:28] And uh the corona hand grinder, which is the best thing I was able to get, sucks. The last time I made it out. I threw it out. I I went to make masa the other day out of rye, which by the way, like I say, it's stickier. If you read the post, it's sticky the I forget what the post is called on cooking issues, but apparently it's back.
+
+[11:43] You can get it, it's not just uh Cialis. Oh, the forum is now Cialis. Oh, okay. Uh anyway, so if you read it, uh, you know, you'll see that I made I mixedamilize rye basically and make it, but rye is a lot stickier than corn is. And so I was trying to grind the rye and the corona.
+
+[11:59] I was like, you know what? Boop, throw it away. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done with you. I'm done.
+
+[12:03] And so then I bought the Nix Domatic, but I don't have a good supply of corn yet. So I'm getting the good supply of corn, and I'll give you some updates on uh grinding master with the Nix Domatic and maybe some new stuff. But I will say this the Nixdomatic grinder also makes a ridiculously good nut butter style. If we had had that back at the at the SCI, our lives would have been so much easier. Do you remember like all the times putting those nuts through the champion and then spinning them in the Vitaprep?
+
+[12:25] This stuff comes out like smooth as silk, like like one shot. You know what I want to make that no one's made for me ever? I want to go to the store. I'm gonna buy planters mixed nuts. You guys planters mixed nuts, fan, Ben?
+
+[12:36] You like the planner's mixed nut? Yeah, I like I like some nuts. Yeah, yeah. But the mixed nut is like you grow up. If you grew up eating nuts, if you weren't one of the, if you weren't allergic to it, right?
+
+[12:44] Which when I was a kid, did you know anyone was allergic when you were a kid styles to nuts? Nah, it's new. It's like past 15 years or something. When I was a kid, you know, in the 70s, like every person, the idea that you wouldn't put it in your house. Yeah, well, it's it's always in your house, but the idea that you would not be able to bring a peanut butter sandwich to school, people would be like, what?
+
+[13:00] What? What? You know what I mean? It's like, you know, like that's not that's it would be ridiculous in the 70s. Now it's common because you know, the rise knowledge is anywho.
+
+[13:08] Here's what I want to do. I want to take just a straight up can of mixed nuts, straight up planters, pour it in this thing and make mixed nut butter. Wouldn't that be good? Why is no one made the mixed nuts? It's really salty.
+
+[13:19] Are you saying you don't like salty? No, like overly salty. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You eat the mixed nuts, do you not? Yeah.
+
+[13:25] So I'm not, I mean, so you're saying you wouldn't like that level of salt as a nut butter? No, no, I don't know. Jack way in? Yeah, I'm I'm torn, but I feel you're where you're coming from, Stas. So it might be maybe a little too salty.
+
+[13:35] But I'm down. I think it'd be a great idea. I love mixed nuts. It's a very easy thing to freaking test. All I need to do is on the way home, buy a can of mixed nuts and dump.
+
+[13:43] And by the way, it's in the can. Remember the old official can? Yeah. Yeah. And dump it in and see what happens.
+
+[13:48] And then I can report back. But but let's say it is salty. I mean, okay, so you want like a cracker with less saltines. Kind of like flavor on it? By the way, do you like you know, like the saltines with the cra with the salt, right?
+
+[13:58] Otherwise, they't taste like real saltines. What does it tasting? I don't know. It's like the tiny tiny salt. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[14:09] Are you talking about okay, okay? There's two things we're looking at here, right? There's the planner's mixed nuts, which are the standard old school kind of processing versus the dry roast, which has the dry feeling on the tongue. Are we talking about the the salt taste of the dry roast? I don't I don't have never had the dry roast.
+
+[14:26] I mean, I don't know the difference. I have to look it up. By the way, secret, Sta's not a big fan of peanuts. Not peanuts, no. Fair.
+
+[14:33] She likes pecans. Pecans, almonds, yeah. You're an almond fan? Yeah, but are you from California? We're not supposed to be into almonds these days.
+
+[14:40] Well, what's wrong with almonds? They take all that water. Oh. Oh. Well, what about Marcona almonds from Spain?
+
+[14:46] I mean, they don't seem to have a water problem. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's it's you know, I don't not I'm not familiar with their problems. You know what I mean? Like I I need to research their problems.
+
+[14:55] But but uh, so a lot of uh what's the what how many gallons of water does it take to make an almond? I uh I don't know, but I think it's like uh it's it's a lot. It's it's like a gallon per almond or something. Something insane. Yeah, yeah, but but the thing is is like let's say you're in almond trees, right?
+
+[15:11] Let's say let's say you're a sixty-year-old Californian almond farmer, and you have made the mistake of planting a low fat variety, because that's what people like. My feeling about a lot of California almonds, they'll they make some delicious I'm not please don't I don't want to hear about it. But my point is that I like the higher fat almond varieties, right? And this becomes especially apparent once you start grinding them, you can really see kind of remember when we used to make almond oil and all that? We used to get the the those California almonds and we had to supplement the oil in them because they were such a pain in the butt anyways.
+
+[15:39] But you have all these trees, we can do let them die. I don't know, maybe. I don't know. It's a hard problem, right? Yeah, maybe just cut them in half.
+
+[15:46] Uh uh, you know what? Uh you know what? I have a connection through McGee to the and uh through labor, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, through whose dad's an almond and an almond farmer, uh, to the California nut board.
+
+[16:01] Why don't we figure out what their response to this is? Why don't we figure out what the California, like you know, nut almond nut board? Because it's a big business. Let me see what they say about it. They gotta have some sort of rap on it, right?
+
+[16:11] Yeah, I mean, I don't think any of the water restrictions apply to commercial farmers. Not yet. Um, yeah. So I do have a caller. All right.
+
+[16:21] But I first want to uh make a pitch here. Uh do you know about our Kickstarter, Dave? I do. Didn't we mention it? Uh we did.
+
+[16:29] We're 14 days to go though, and it's getting to uh Did we win? Did we win? We have not won. All right. How many want to be winners?
+
+[16:36] How much do we need to win? So we are $12,000 away from being winners. Out of how much? Out of 35. So we're you know, about 65% of the way there.
+
+[16:44] We've got 14 days to go. Um there are really, really awesome perks all the way up to having your own radio show. I mean, that's a really, really awesome perk. Has anyone bought that? Yeah, we've had uh we've had uh a few actually.
+
+[16:58] So that's exciting. Um but check it out. It's on Kickstarter. If you search Heritage Radio Network, you can see the fun little video we made. The website actually will fall apart in the fall, like the coding language.
+
+[17:09] It was built on Ruby on Rails, and all of the updates are just are not compatible with our version and it's falling apart. You know what you should do, Jack? You should do you should you can create a web address that's like Kickstarter slash heritage radio. Oh, we very well might have one. Anyway, our point is this if you enjoy having the Cooking Issues radio show and enjoy Jack being a a pleasant part of what we're doing instead of hating all of you to death.
+
+[17:35] What I would recommend is that you uh fund this Kickstarter. Is that more or less accurate, Jack? That's pretty much it. Yeah, I mean, look. How many people do we need?
+
+[17:44] Like, like what's the average donation here? We would have to crunch some numbers. But I mean, yeah, every every dollar counts, you know. How much did you know? Your own radio show.
+
+[17:53] Your own radio show, I believe, is uh five thousand dollars for your own season. A whole season? Oh my god, dudes. It's good. You get uh for a thousand bucks, you can record a podcast.
+
+[18:04] For 5,000, you get a whole season. Let me tell you something. Any of those, any of you people out there with an axe to grind, this is your chance. Can we can we say what we're gonna do soon, Dave? What are we gonna do?
+
+[18:14] For our listeners. Oh, yeah, for listeners of cooking issues. Uh Stas and I have uh okay, so you guys uh uh have heard of the vegan face, right, Jack? People have heard of the vegan face, Nastasia's vegan face. We haven't talked about it in a while, but she has this these facial expressions that you can't see on the radio that are just different ways that Nastasia has to express her distaste for things like vegans or biscuits or spores.
+
+[18:38] Spores, fung fungus, like we're like certain things like this that she hates. Um me, for instance. Um so what we're gonna do is also uh and one of our favorite phrases which we haven't used in a while, Jack, is enemy of quality, right? Oh, yeah. So we're gonna make enemy of quality t shirts to have my my character t shirts.
+
+[18:59] The long sleeve shirt. It's gonna happen, but we're gonna get a caricature of Nastasia's vegan face. And my face, and cooking issues enemies, enemy of quality. Available soon. Right soon?
+
+[19:10] Caller. You are on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? Going alright, what's up? Hey, put me down for five grand because of the Jetty Podcast.
+
+[19:19] Is that for real? Nice. Is that real? Is that real? No.
+
+[19:22] Okay, okay. Sorry. Thanks. Thanks for your call. Bye.
+
+[19:29] I was curious about a given tip for uh bottling carbonated cocktail. It seems kind of hard to keep high-level decarbonation. Um just in general, if you have any uh tips for that. Sure. Uh what kind of cocktail do you want?
+
+[19:43] What kind of carbonated cocktail would you like to bottle? Um, I was trying it with your um party. Champagne acid. Uh do not bottle the it with the acid. It will get very, very bitter.
+
+[19:57] Oh, okay. Very bitter. Um because uh I don't know why. But but you can add the acid afterwards uh when you're pouring it. But any of the other carbonated ones, uh if you use like a lime acid or something, I haven't tested other types of acid with uh in other words.
+
+[20:13] I didn't do a side-by-side of the um the the compari soda variant, basically, with lime acid versus with the champagne acid that I use in there, which is a tartaric uh uh lactic blend. So I don't know whether it's a particular acid bottled with the compari that makes it go super bitter, or whether it's uh uh any acid in general. And by the way, Aperol will also go bitter the same way compari does. However, it's less perceptible because Aperol is less overall bitter, so you might be able to get away with it with Aperol. That's just that's just a beforehand before we start.
+
+[20:48] Another thing, another thing you're gonna want to note is that champagne acid, um, I think it's because uh it's not quite as I don't know why, but it tends to foam more. The things with champagne acid in them, which is again a uh six percent mixture that's half uh six percent acid mixture, half of which is lactic, half of which is tartaric, uh to mimic the same acidity as lime juice or lemon. Uh I don't know why, but it tends to foam more. So that's just a no-tebene for you when you're doing a bottled cocktail. Now, if you're gonna bottle a carbonated cocktail, the first thing you need to do is get uh glass bottles, you need to get uh caps that seal well.
+
+[21:25] You want to make sure that the insides of those bottles are super clean. So the way to test Oh my god, you gone Darth Vader on the. Uh so the way to test that is to pour uh liquid into the bottle, turn it upside down, and see whether it cheats. If it sheets out, then you got clean. If you see little dots, then there are things that are stopping it from sheeting.
+
+[21:44] It's not as the my chemistry teacher used to say in in high school, analytically clean. You're gonna want to clean it out. Why? Mean you don't have to, it's not like a safety thing, but any nucleation sites on the side of that bottle are gonna cause a real pain when you're trying to uh uh fill it. Now, another thing.
+
+[22:00] Carbonated uh cocktails, they foam a lot more than uh than sodas do. They foam a lot more than most other things do. So, what I would recommend, and what Nastasi and I have done, we've had to bottle them in the past. You want to get the smallest amount of head space possible because that's gonna also ruin your carbonation because it's gonna bleed out, right? So get your bottles cold, very cold, not cold enough to freeze any cocktail when it hits, because if anything freezes, that's nucleation sites, right?
+
+[22:28] So you want to like like quadruple carbonate your your cocktails in your bottles like you do normally, unless you have some better system. Then get your bottles cold and then uh tilt it on its side, pour the stuff in, let it foam up, and then just keep pouring fresh cocktail in until there's no foam anymore. Do this in a tray, then cap it at the last minute and let them settle, and then when you're done doing a batch, recarbonate the stuff that fell into the tray. That's what we do when we have to do it. Like we had to do who do we do that for Jimmy Fallon or something for someone else?
+
+[22:59] Didn't Dave take a bottle of uh carbonated stuff on Jimmy Fallon or something? And we had to do it. And that's how we did it. We just kept on pouring it in, letting it foam out, and then cap it and then recarb the stuff at the end. It's a pain in the butt though.
+
+[23:11] You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's what I would do. Oh, in fact, that's what I have done.
+
+[23:16] Yeah. Thank you very much. Alright, thank you. All right. Um, Sue.
+
+[23:21] Uh I guess that's enough on the on the Mexico, yeah? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. All right.
+
+[23:26] Um by the way, uh, I have a question in, thankfully, on the Tandoor, because we haven't talked about the Tandoor at all, right? No, you talked a little bit about it. Yeah? Easter. For Easter?
+
+[23:37] But have had I already cooked with it yet? Mm-hmm. We've had a show after Easter. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[23:42] Yeah. Anyway, I love the Tandoor. I'm loving it. So people here's what people keep asking me. They keep asking me, Dave, I hear you love your tandoor, but what do you think about the big green egg?
+
+[23:52] And the fact of the matter is, the big green e you're familiar with the big green egg, Ben? It's like a ceramic grill, like egg, well, hence big green egg and egg-shaped ceramic grill. The Kamado grill is the is the kind of generic term for this type of grill. And uh they're very well loved uh grills, but the fact of the matter is I don't own one. However, we might rectify that soon.
+
+[24:10] I may or may not have a magazine that you may or may not have heard of, you have heard of it, uh, who's gonna have me do a side-by-side uh big big green egg versus tandoor and a variety of things. Won't that be fun? Yeah. We come up to Connecticut and play around with that stuff, Stas? I would like to.
+
+[24:24] Yeah, nice, nice, nice. Tandoor, amazing. Um, okay, but I have a question on the tandoor, which is where I get to it. Michael from Toronto writes in. Uh I bought a it's a multi-part question, as usual.
+
+[24:34] Uh I bought a palladium searzole and I've been using it for a couple of days with the TS8000. And by the way, I'm not, I'm just gonna go ahead and say you should only use a TS8000. Am I right, Stas? Yes. The 4,000, I was uh doing a benefit for the edible schoolyards, and uh one of Tom Calliccio's cooks was like, the Sears all's not working, so I looked at it, he used the 4000.
+
+[24:44] I'm like, you're a professional brother. Use the 8000, 8,000. If you're a professional, use the freaking 8000. You know what I mean? That's true.
+
+[24:57] What the hell? Anyways. Uh I mean it's like over twice the BTUs, like well over twice, whatever. Uh anyway, I bought a palladium sears all, I've been using it for a couple of days with a TS-8000 from Burnsomatic. And I'm wondering about the gas valve on the torch.
+
+[25:12] Do you find that your valve settings uh are application dependent, or do you just run it wide open all the time? And if any of you have ever met me, the answer is, of course, wide open all the time. I mean, all the time. And the reason is, first of all, on the 8000, I used to think that the throttling was gonna be a good thing, and you can throttle it somewhat. For those of you that don't know, the the Burn Somatic TS 8000 is a uh is like kind of a propane torch that um it's a trigger start.
+
+[25:40] So you're like you know what I mean? It starts right away. And I use it, I use it pretty much every day, either with the Searsol or as a lighter, right? So I use I use it to light my chimney starter, I use it to light wood, I use it to light my burners in the summer when I turn the pilots off. I use it all you know all the time.
+
+[25:57] Uh don't turn your pilots off, it's not supposed to be. Anyway, but whatever when you do, like that's what I do. You know, I don't sit there with like wadded up toilet paper or whatever, you know, napkins and lighting my burners. So TS-8000, fantastic, but it's got like a little knob on the back of it that can reduce the amount of gas that goes through it. Now here's the problem: TS-8000 and the TS4000 and this entire style of torch that I use on the Sears All has a what's called like a vortex tip on it.
+
+[26:23] So if you look at the tip of the torch, there's a piece of brass on the end, and inside that brass are four twisted metal fins. And what those things do is they actually swirl and and I I guess possibly mix, but mainly swirl the gas as it comes out, and it creates a very violent, like uh, you know kind of characteristic kind of f flame coming out of it that's not kind of not bushy, right? As opposed to, let's say, the Iwatani, which has uh like a long flame but more bushy, right? Because it doesn't have that kind of vortex tip on it. So the problem is is when you throttle it down, the vortex doesn't work as well.
+
+[27:00] It's just straight up. It just doesn't have the velocity out of it, and so you're not getting as good a result on the Searsol. So what happens is it'll work, but it'll tend to flame out more. Not flame out, but if you turn a Searz all the way upside down, um you'll start getting like that kind of a thing, and it's irritating. So I just leave it all wide open.
+
+[27:17] And if I need to pull back slightly, I pull back slightly. Make sense to us? Second question. PX, PS. Do you wear Nomex sleeves?
+
+[27:25] Nomex, good good use of Nomex. You know, Nomex the fire retardant material that first I first came to my attention when I was a small child because uh they used to use it in like flight suits to stop people from lighting on fire. But it's like a standard kind of flame proofy kind of a thing. Do you wear Nomex sleeves when you're using your Tandoor? Thanks, Michael from Toronto.
+
+[27:42] I don't. The first time I used a tandoor, I bought uh a set well, okay. So I was reminded by Nastasia that when we built a tandoor for the uh uh Anthony Bourdain shoot we did like what is that, four years ago or three years ago, whatever, that I insisted that we all use our bare hands to put the the bread in because what am I? What am I? You're not well now you're weak.
+
+[28:02] Well, no, so I'm back. I'm back. So so then, like the first time I fired up the Tandoor uh at home to make bread, I was like, I bought a set of those grill gloves, right? Which are these like giant grill gloves, and I was like, because I was gonna do a lot of stuff in there. And then I got back and Nastasi says, You're half a man, you're strong man, you're you're made of paper, you're weak, you're useless, right?
+
+[28:20] Is that basically what you said? Yeah. I mean, that's fair. And I was like, you know what, Stas? Fair.
+
+[28:25] Fair. And so uh so last week I went back and made it God's way, which is just sticking your hand in the damn tandoor and like smacking the the bread onto the side of the thing. I'm getting really good at the non, by the way. I have very little, very little fall-offs. I can't wait to try to do non and the big green egg.
+
+[28:41] You like non, right? Yeah. Is that your is that like yeah, non, good bread, yeah? Yeah, okay. Wait, so you're getting a big green egg?
+
+[28:48] Well, I'm I'm not gonna buy a big green egg. But if the big if someone if a magazine wants to get one for me so that I can do an article on like tandoor versus green egg. I can get you one. What? I can get you one.
+
+[29:01] Well, with the magazine's gonna try. If they can't, you want why, you have an in? Well, yeah, I know someone who wants to get rid of theirs like why? What do they not like about it? Nobody uses it specifically, someone.
+
+[29:11] Well, who is it? Tell me who you're after. Oh man, you're leaving everyone hanging here. Why would they not use it? What are they?
+
+[29:17] Well, first of all, let's go through this. Do they live in New York City? Yeah. Okay. So they have it on the roof?
+
+[29:22] Balcony. Balcony. But it's a low balcony, so it's okay. But do they not use it because someone moved out and it's still in someone's apartment. Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[29:33] First of all, do they know how much these things are worth? Does the person who's left with it know how much it's worth? I don't think so. Don't tell them. They're like a thousand bucks.
+
+[29:40] Yeah. I know. The small ones like a thousand bucks. They don't care about money. No, they get a they get a salary sometimes.
+
+[29:48] What the hell? What? Anyway, like what is it? Do they not like cooking in general? Uh not with a big green egg.
+
+[29:54] No, but in general, do they like cooking? I'm not sure. You're not sure. Alright, well, listen, yes, we'll take we'll take their big green egg and raise them a whatever. I don't know, we'll cook them something in it.
+
+[30:04] Uh hey, Jack, is this a good time for our Jackie Molecules commercial break? Ooh, maybe, yeah, I think it is. Let's do it. Let's do it. Hey, what's up, guys?
+
+[30:24] It's me, Jack, as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resources, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff.
+
+[31:05] There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place. Molecular recipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code Heritage at checkout.
+
+[31:29] That's promo code Heritage. So again, check them out. Molecular recipes.com. Tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley.
+
+[31:40] And we're back. And we're back. By the way, should you go to the molecular recipes.com, which we recommend. Please enter the code. Let me tell you why.
+
+[31:49] You gotta let them know that that the money that they put into the cooking issues program is doing something for them. Am I right, Jack? That's how it works. So like you're like, man, I don't know. Well they got good stuff too.
+
+[31:59] I mean, that's the real reason. No, but my point is though, is that you're like, maybe I don't need the discount. I'm not gonna end the discount code. I'm not gonna bother. Right?
+
+[32:05] But if you don't bother entering the discount code, then they don't know that the reason that you went there is because you heard that. Who knows where you came from? The hell knows. Who knows? Would you know, Ben?
+
+[32:16] But who doesn't need a discount? Who do well apparently the person who has the big green egg that we're gonna get a hold of doesn't need a discount. They don't care about money, they don't care about food, they don't care about nothing. They got a balcony in New York and nothing to do with it. Don't want to cook on a big green egg.
+
+[32:29] Hey, you know what? Do you know how many people would like me? I mean, years I've wanted to be able to cook outside in New York. Years, years, and they have a balcony with a big green egg on it, they don't want to use it. It's freaking unacceptable.
+
+[32:41] It's not right. I don't care. It just means you're a bad person. It just means you're no good. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:47] We got a good person on the line. All right, Jack, why don't you tell me who we got on the line? It's Darren from uh MELD. Darren from Meld. Listen, I haven't um uh I haven't spoken to you about it yet.
+
+[32:58] You're on the line right now, are you with us? I am, yes. Nice. So uh for those of you that don't know out here on the uh on the you know in whatever whoever's listening to this, MELD is a current Kickstarter. How much longer do you have left on the Kickstarter?
+
+[33:13] Uh we've got about uh nine or ten days to go. Ends next Friday. Yeah. Wow wildly overfunded. Don't mean, but you should do it.
+
+[33:20] The reason to do it is because you're gonna be correct in line, you're gonna be first in line if you're a Kickstarter backer, right? That's absolutely right. Right. So one of the things, and having done a Kickstarter before, uh here's look, here's the secret of Kickstarters, right? Is that you have to put the number low enough to um low enough so that you think you can make it, right?
+
+[33:41] But then the people out there in Kickstarter land, they don't understand that what you really want is to wildly, wildly surpass your number. And you already have on meld, which is great. But the point is is that it's as someone who's trying to start manufacturing something, it's vastly easier when you're dealing with uh larger numbers of units. And so not only is it uh it's better for the end, it's better for the end user or the person who's buying a pro. I know the Kickstarter is not a pre-order, but let's be honest, it's pre-order, right?
+
+[34:11] I mean, let's be honest. Am I right? It's pre-order. Let's stop kidding ourselves. Um, but it's uh it's vastly better to be dealing with manufacturers with larger numbers of units.
+
+[34:21] You know what I mean, than with smaller numbers of units. Agree or disagree? Absolutely, because there's there's a certain fixed cost up front. It doesn't matter whether you end up making one part or you make 10,000 parts, that same fixed cost for the mold is, you know, fixed cost. Right.
+
+[34:40] So let me let me let me introduce what the product is, and then we'll then we'll talk about some. You tell me if I'm wrong, right? So MELD is kind of a first of its kind product. So the idea is is that a lot of us have uh well m vast majority of us have ranges, right? You know, like cooking ranges that operate with a knob on the front, right?
+
+[35:00] And so they require you, the human, to adjust the uh the knob to determine what the the heat level, the gas output tip most typically is going to be on said range, right? Well, what if you were to put a uh a motorized knob that was hooked up to some intelligent electronics and then had something else control it instead, hence meld. Is am I right about this? Is this right? That's that's absolutely right.
+
+[35:26] Because you're you know, you read a lot of recipes and they'll say, put a pan on medium, right? And we've done the experiment. You put the exact same pan on medium on a you know five or ten randomly selected ranges from you and your friends, and you'll see differences of temperatures of a hundred, hundred and fifty degrees easily. Right. And and here's another thing that you probably uh deal with as well.
+
+[35:49] Like in my in my building, right? It's actually it's the fault of the person that installed installed my range because they didn't put in the regulator that I asked them to install after the gas. So like so I I I have re I have fluctuating gas uh levels in my range, and so the actual flame I get out of any particular burner is dependent upon whether someone else turns on another gas appliance or burner that's in close proximity. I don't know if a lot of people have that problem, or that's just because the Joker didn't install the regulator on my on my stove is probably I need to go do it. But presumably this would also uh kind of um ease the or or uh level out the vagaries of gas pressure as well.
+
+[36:28] That's correct, yeah. Yeah. So one so so this is kind of like you can go to the the the Kickstarter, and by the by the way, what's what's your theoretical delivery time after the end of the Kickstarter? Uh October. That's fast.
+
+[36:41] We we deliberately sort of held off on the Kickstarter. We thought about doing it sort of late last year, but we waited until we've got you know real actual working prototypes, and you can see them in in some of the the videos, but that are, you know, except for a few cases where we're still 3D printing a few parts, uh, these are the final products, and we're cooking on them every day so that you know we we are confident we can deliver versus the sort of standard, you know, well, we've never done this before and we think we can deliver, and you know, we'll tell you later if we're gonna be late. I'm familiar with that process with the Sears all. But um the so let me ask you a couple of questions that I that I was wondering. First of all, I'm not saying anything we would love some time to beta test one.
+
+[37:33] I'm just saying we'd love to beta test one. Um, but uh, you know, we'll even I mean I'll buy one. I don't mean I would love to beta test one though. Um the not that it's pads past beta, I guess it's too late to beta. But the um the thing I'm wondering specifically, how do you deal with uh things like uh flame out?
+
+[37:51] So a lot of a lot of burners when they get uh you know on the lower end of their spectrum, they can sometimes go out, and not everyone has a burner with a kind of uh a flame sensor on it to determine kind of uh what's going on. So how does the system deal with that sort of does it notice that there's no more heat input and it throttles it back to light, or what what happens? Yeah, so it's uh yeah, it's a great question, and uh and absolutely something we have to deal with. So what we do is we are, you know, obviously just to make the thing work, we're monitoring the level of gas we think we're putting in and the sort of temperature response in the in the pot at all times. And if we start seeing a scenario where uh it's flamed out, what's typically gonna happen is we're gonna say, oh, well, the you know, we're not getting the additional heat into the pot at the rate we expect it to for for where the gas knob is.
+
+[38:44] That's a problem. We're gonna alert you on your app back on your phone, and then we're also going to just turn the gas completely off. So there are a number of kind of safety scenarios built into it where you know we think there's something wrong enough or potentially wrong enough going on that we're gonna alert you, and if you don't respond, we're actually just gonna turn off the gas. Okay. So but in other words, is it something that can be tuned to some so presumably when you get it, you tune it to your range, yeah?
+
+[39:19] Right. So what you do is you put it on your range, you turn it with the app asks you to turn it to the off position, to the low position, to the high position, uh, so that it knows sort of the bounds of where it can turn. And then uh, you know, from there, it's basically uh self-learning. So it'll um, you know, it will adjust the the gas flow to maintain temperature, whether you put you know a great big pot. We've got actually a bunch of people interested in home brewing, which is an application we hadn't even really considered who've kind of come out of the woodwork, and we actually made a video with uh with a home brewer that'll come out in uh in a week or so.
+
+[40:02] So it's pretty pretty interesting. Or, you know, sometimes you've got a small pot and need a lot less gas for the for the same temperature level, but that feedback loop will actually make those adjustments. Nice. Now uh I had a couple other questions. Let me see what they are.
+
+[40:17] Um the well, first of all, before we go any further, what's the what's what's your like uh in production MSRP versus like what you're gonna get on the Kickstarter? Uh so kick MSRP uh right now is 149. We did early word Kickstarter at 99, those sold out, and we're doing uh nine uh 129 now currently. So you're getting like you're getting like uh 20 dollars off, which is like something what is that? That's like what is that like 15% off or something?
+
+[40:49] That uh final. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um now is anything prevent you from using it like a normal gas knob if you just want to just walk up and and use it. Nope.
+
+[40:59] You can walk up and turn it uh anytime you want. And that was actually one of the engineering challenges was to get a motor and motor driver circuitry such that we could generate enough torque to turn the knob even on kind of an old crappy sticky range. Um, but at the same time, you could still turn the knob and not do you know backdrive the motor in a way that was gonna damage it. So we went through a lot of different uh tests on that before we settled on the right sort of combination of motor, gear train, and driver to make that happen. Nice.
+
+[41:35] A are you anticipating any aftermarket drop-in circulation devices for pots or I don't I don't remember, I don't think you had one on the Kickstarter, right? Uh we don't. We've uh we've got a number of I think really interesting sort of uh directions to go with this. And uh, you know, part of it's part of how we'll choose kind of which one we do next is is gonna be based on the the feedback from this Kickstarter. So um certainly if that's if if that drop in uh uh circulation is is something you want, you know, hit us up and uh you know we'll we'll certainly respond to to what we hear.
+
+[42:17] Right. Have uh and so what kind of numbers have you been getting out of let's say like uh oh I don't know like a four quart pot with uh you know like three liters or something of water something like this what kind of stability are you are you getting in there temperature wise uh basically one degree. Come on really that's bananas. One Celsius you know so it's not it's not like you know you're getting a a high end poly science point one degree you know uh I love what what Phil Preston does. We can't do that on a stovetop but we can do about one one degree Celsius.
+
+[42:56] Let me ask this what about stuff that scorches on the bottom right so the measurement of it is there some sort of is there some sort of way to measure that specifically worries about products that are going to scorch on the bottom so there are yeah I mean basically um you know depending on on i that's mostly a problem in really viscous fluids where you're not getting a lot of uh you know a lot a lot of uh circulation just from the um you know from the natural convection that's happening in the pot um in general we haven't had a you know we haven't had a lot of problem with that um because we I think tend to keep the flame a lot lower and if you've got a decent quality say you know even you know aluminum uh pot that's gonna distribute the heat up this the aluminum sides pretty well. It it hasn't been a big issue for us. Um that being said, you know, if you leave a pot of chili on for 10 hours, you know, and never stir it, uh I'm not so sure we could you know make make a whole bunch of guarantees there. But then you should die anyway. Yeah.
+
+[44:07] Yeah. Uh you're you're you're ruining your an enemy of quality, as we said. You can go by the, you know, if you're not stirring your chili for 10 hours, like may oh maybe you're sick. Maybe you've fallen and you can't get up, in which case I forgive you, and there's no reason they're saying bad shit happened to your chili. But if you forget that you put chili on for 10 hours, like you're an enemy of quality.
+
+[44:24] Am I right? You're a bad person. I totally agree. Yeah. One last question.
+
+[44:28] So uh, and because I'm gonna I have to answer another couple questions before we go, but but uh first of all, super exciting. Like a first of its kind product, amazing no one has done it before. I'm extremely excited for it to be on the market. Um and for those of you that remember MELD, like M E L D Kickstarter, go check it out. But uh, so here's the here's the here's the thing.
+
+[44:50] Are you gonna put programming into it so that you can essentially turn it into a rice cooker? The uh the the rice cooker application, uh like specifically doing rice, we've done a few tests. I think by the time we release it, we'll have we'll will be, you know, we we will have have pretty thoroughly tested that and and and gotten the programming down. Because how sweet would that be? Everyone with one of these things, all of a sudden they can turn one of their burners into a rice cooker.
+
+[45:21] It's just looking for the I mean, you're just looking for the knee and the temperature rise, right? You put a certain gentle heat into it, you wait for the temperature rise to mean that the water's gone and you're done. Isn't that how rice cookers work or no? Yeah, yeah. So there's that's that's actually uh a specific example of a really interesting general case that we've seen in in a variety of things we've we've been cooking in in this, which is that you know, when you're cooking uh something that's you know liquid and anywhere at all near the boiling point, the vast majority of the heat that that you're putting in is being sucked out by water evaporating out the top, right?
+
+[46:04] And so if you have sort of a low-level algorithm whose only job is to keep you at at the same temperature you want to be at, and that low-level algorithm at some point starts saying, Oh, I I can dial back the heat, I can dial back the heat, I can dial back the heat because I I don't need that much heat to maintain the temperature anymore. What that's telling you is exactly what you just said. It's this saying, hey, that we're not getting all that evaporation, sucking all that the energy out. Something interesting has just happened. And so being able to do recipes, you know, that that detect those kind of effects instead of just like put it on medium heat for 20 minutes, right?
+
+[46:49] That's a that that's a game changer in terms of of how you think about cooking. And it's something that we think, you know, given that we can detect these kind of things and and have the feedback loops, uh, that we can do some really interesting stuff. And so you think you'll be able to have those kind of applications almost at launch? Some of some of those applications almost at launch? Some of them, yeah.
+
+[47:12] Well, listen, I'm super excited and uh congratulations on already having funded the Kickstarter. Everyone should go on and order one now to secure your place in line because you know it sucks to have to be on the sec second shipment of that thing that they sell on Amazon. Then you're gonna be, you know, six months in the hole probably before the second shipment comes in. Am I right? Yeah, I think I think so.
+
+[47:33] Yeah. Well, anyway, thanks so much for coming on. It's a super interesting product, and I'm excited for it to be out in the world. Yeah, thanks. Uh, thanks so much for uh for having us on.
+
+[47:42] And uh yeah, we're we're super excited. Always been a big fan of your show, and uh thanks for having us on. Thanks. All right. What?
+
+[47:52] I don't have no more time at all. It's time. Zero? Yeah. All right, listen.
+
+[47:55] I'm just gonna tell the questions that I didn't get a chance to answer, okay? Cool. Okay. So Trudy wrote in and you know, catching up on our stuff uh about hydrocolloids and about the bloodlines in fish. I have plenty of answers, including well, whatever.
+
+[48:11] We'll have to deal with it next time. I have I have all this stuff. Sam Geiger wrote in about cold pack squirrel, but I thought we already talked about cold pack squirrel. I don't know. Jack, did we talk about cold pack squirrel?
+
+[48:19] More than I remember. All right, we'll get back to it. Uh and uh lastly, but certainly no, two two other things we didn't get to. Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon wrote in on Douglas Fur and making tea with Douglas Fur. I'll just say this if it's a springtime out there, um, collect some of the fresh uh the fresh green uh uh tips if you can, and then do a side by side with those in the old older needles.
+
+[48:41] But we'll talk more about Conifertine next week. And in fact, I'm gonna make some tea with my hemlock because I have some Eastern hemlock, which you can do. And we have some interesting comments in on some higher end vegetes from Brandon Byrd and some talking about oil dispensing stuff with Joel Esposito, all for next time on Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[49:14] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network in reverse pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling all of your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Nastasha De Hammer Lopez is currently en route from Chicago at the James Beard Awards, but we are joined in the studio today with Peter Kim, the W president director.
+
+[0:52] Ugh Galactic Emperor, man, I told you. You are actually the lawyer emeritus. I am the lawyer emeritus, yeah. Yes, of the Museum of Food and Drinks. Basically, you are looking for uh legal counsel to justify all of your nefarious actions.
+
+[1:05] Not on the air, Peter does. And uh Veronica, who's a new uh intern at the museum and uh hails originally, I guess, from Brazil, but is currently living in Miami. Yes, sir. Yeah, it feels in here like Miami. It feels in this room like we're in Miami.
+
+[1:18] I'm bringing some sunshine to New York. Yeah, or more of the humidity. And the sulfur stink. That's the other thing people don't realize they've never been to Florida, is the entire place smells of sulfurous groundwater. Or is that just me that believes that?
+
+[1:28] Can't blame me for it though. Yeah, yeah. No, uh, I don't know. Maybe maybe you did dope all of the entire ground with sulfurous minerals. I don't know.
+
+[1:36] You know that smell, that Florida water smell when they water the lawns with that Florida water. All too well. Yeah. All too well. Do they have on that side the giant palmetto bugs?
+
+[1:44] First of all, is everything just built in cleared palmetto like it is over in Sarasota or is it different? Well, I'm actually from North Miami, so I am pretty much in the clear of Palmetto bags, thankfully. Oh, nice, yeah. But they're it they make our cockroaches look like I know. Like, you know, like nothing like weaklings.
+
+[2:00] I know. Yeah. Uh although we do have the giant water bugs here in New York that are on the lower floors of our buildings only. And they don't congregate in huge packs. I call them travelers because they just kind of you see one, you kill it.
+
+[2:11] You're not worried about infestation because it came somewhere from the pipes down from the depths where the alligators grow. Also in Portland. Speaking of water bugs, Dave's covered in water right now. All right, but I biked here. And joined uh in the engineering booth with our old pal Jack Insley.
+
+[2:25] Hey guys. How you doing? I'm pretty good. Good. So have uh we have a bunch of stuff to get to, so I'll just get to it.
+
+[2:31] Although please do call in your questions to 718-4972128. That's 7184972128. Uh sad news to report. Um most of you who are plugged into the uh food uh internetosphere uh probably already know, but uh Josh Azerski died yesterday. Uh uh, they still haven't figured out uh kind of uh like why why he died, but he was found in his hotel room uh yesterday morning.
+
+[2:57] He was in Chicago actually for the uh the beard awards. He's only 47, very sad, you know, very very kind of larger than life uh figure. You know, I've worked with him a couple times over the years on on things, so uh you know. Yeah, much respect. Yeah, and uh he actually did a show here for um for a while back in 2009 and 10.
+
+[3:18] I remember that. Yeah, the Mr. Cutlet Show. Yeah, you know, I could tell some I won't, maybe eventually I could tell some crazy Josh stories. Like he's a crazy he was like a larger than life, a legit kind of larger than life uh individual.
+
+[3:30] Had a couple of uh uh same early champions as I did, like Jess Jeffrey Steingarden. Um yeah, you know, it's just uh no BS. Crazy. Well, like well, it depends on how you define it, I guess. He's cute, he's like, you know, like his writing was over the top, he was over the top.
+
+[3:44] Um anyway, he's definitely gonna be missing the food world, so it's a sorry announcement to have to make. Um so rather than go launching into my normal stuff, why don't you talk? We have a museum benefit coming up in uh next week, actually. Yeah, next Wednesday. So we've got the annual Mofed Spring Benefit dinner coming up, and uh well, I'm biased, but I think this is really the most exciting dining event in New York City.
+
+[4:10] Uh we get uh this is actually a concept that Dave put together. Um and it's with Nastasia and Hammer Lopez. With Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and uh Patrick Martins as Dave wipes the moisture off his face. Um but we get uh we get eight of the best chefs in the country to come together and put together a meal, but it's not just any kind of meal. We do museum themes like uh food of ancient Rome or space food or uh what else have we done, Dave?
+
+[4:35] We did caveman food, we didn't wily did uh caveman food. Well, speaking of uh James Beard and Winners TV Dinner. Yep, yep, exactly. TV dinner by Michael Anthony, who just won the James Beard Award for Outstanding Chef. We did Ancient Rome with a whole ostrich by another Mark Wedner, just uh best chef New York City, and uh congrats, Mark.
+
+[4:53] Uh Tosi did uh Chef Christina did uh Space Food. She's uh just one for outstanding pastry chef. So yeah, we have a lot of a lot of big a lot of big uh big people. And uh this you want to give him a rundown of who it is? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:06] So this year we've got a great lineup. We've got Don't miss any or I'll kill you. Yeah, yeah, we've got Aaron Blue Dorn uh from Cafe Balud, we've got Elizabeth Faulkner, we've got uh Alex Cornicelli. She's gonna be doing What Would Jesus eat, which I think is really one of the more exciting topics. Um we've got uh Mad's Refslon, one of the.
+
+[5:22] No, but we know what he drinks. We know he turns water into wine when the keg is kicked at the wedding. Yeah, exactly. That we know. And then I can then turn wine into pee.
+
+[5:32] That's my special. Wow, we just got in trouble with a whole chunk of our listeners there. So there you go. Anyway, and then we have Mads Reflon, one of the co-founders of Noma. And now the he's at the helm of Acme.
+
+[5:42] He's doing weeds of New York. We've got Andy Ricker, your friend, my friend, uh Pac Pac Man, and he's doing rotten, rotten food. And then we've got remember, like we gave him that because like I know for he likes uh doing things like fermented short ribs and stuff like this. So we gave him and the concept here, I'll let you finish so you don't forget anyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:00] Marcus Samuelson, and then we've got uh What's his theme again? What's his theme to use? Oh, yeah, he's doing so around the uh the turn of the 19th century, the Emperor Menelik, who is one of the most beloved emperors of Ethiopia, held all these giant public banquets for 10,000 over 10,000 people at a time. And so he's doing a meal that uh is an homage to that. Okay.
+
+[6:20] Uh then we have uh Bill Telepan. He's taking on the story of a ancient sassanite dish called Sikbaj. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, but nobody does. It's old. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:32] Um that title is actually stolen from the language of food, uh, which is uh a book out by uh Jurowski about the his history of certain like a linguistic approach to you know a linguist reads the menu kind of a thing. Yeah. And then and then we've got Bill Yosis, the former executive uh pastry chef at the White House, taking on the topic when the White House burned, because in 1814 the British troops arrived at the White House to burn it down, but they found bizarrely enough a meal laid out for them that was a meal that the pre President Madison and Dolly Madison, the first lady had abandoned in their haste to leave. Of course, they saved the portrait of George Washington. And they say Americans aren't polite.
+
+[7:08] We left dinner for them. Exactly, exactly. So they ate it, they drank it, then they burned the house down. See, it's the Brits. It's the Brits who caused the problems.
+
+[7:15] No offense. I'll be in Britain actually next week as well, right after they benefit. I fly out to London. I'm doing uh cocktail demos at Zetter Townhouse. Cheers.
+
+[7:23] Um again, now you got in trouble with the other half of us. Oh, yeah, there we go. Um my goal is to alienate pretty much everybody. Uh except you. Um and then so anyway, we so tickets.
+
+[7:32] We've just got a handful of tickets left, and oh yeah, booze by none other than some uh smuck named Dave Arnold. Yep uh also maybe a James Beard award winner. They they will be James Beard Award winning author's cocktails. That's the most precise way to put it. Yeah, uh Perdora card's giving us a liquor for that very good.
+
+[7:51] We got Pernore Ricard for liquor. We're gonna we're gonna have uh Jeffrey Porter, the wine director at Del Posto, is getting an incredible lineup of wine. We got uh sparkling wine, a champagne, we've got and then we're gonna be. Yeah, yeah, Nastasia will be there in the corner with her bottle of champagne. And then uh we'll have uh a selection of six wines available during the dinner.
+
+[8:11] Uh this is gonna be essentially a pretty blowout affair at Carnegie Hall, top two floors, rooftop terrace, looking over the city. Now it's expensive. Yes, it is it is expensive, but of course it's to support uh the development of the Museum of Food and Drink, which is itself a worthy cause. But the first time we did this, we were incredibly stupid. We charged 250 dollars, and how much would you have to pay for that meal if you want to go get it?
+
+[8:31] I mean, there's no price you could pay for it. I mean so now we're charging something that's like you know, we're charging museum style like benefit prices now because we're older and wiser. But I'll tell you something the great thing about all these we'll give them the we'll give you the price in a minute. Before now, how much would you pay? But the thing is three low low installments.
+
+[8:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we can do that, frankly. We could do that, we could probably do that, the three low installments. Yeah, we could take the installment plan. Yeah, I'll take the installment anyway.
+
+[8:55] Anyway, but the point is uh we hopefully also you also get a little uh like you know a spiel and taste about what we're gonna be doing in the museum in the upcoming year uh directly from Peter's uh mouth. Uh but the the way we structure the reason we structure the benefit this way is nine times out of ten, uh you well ten times out of ten, really, unless you only go to uh ten benefits a year and one of them's ours. The uh, you know, they have a chef come in and uh the chefs are, you know, maybe they get a couple of chefs, or maybe they have big tastings, but typically the chef is doing something that is a some version of what you might be able to get at their restaurant. And we do exactly the opposite. It's actually a huge kind of challenge that our chefs uh take on.
+
+[9:35] It's a huge commitment, which is why we're so grateful to all of the chefs that have done it over the years and the ones that are doing it this year. In fact, uh, I mean, look to see a bunch of them. We uh we invite the chefs who have done it to come just as guests and expect to see some of those heavy hitters there at the at the benefit as well. Um but uh you're gonna get stuff that they don't cook otherwise. And so you can't really ever buy any of this stuff.
+
+[9:56] You know, it's like it's not something that they would ever do normally. So we're making them get out of their comfort zone. Yeah, so what one night only. I mean, you like you know, like the giant ostrich that Mark did. Anyway, now how much would you pay?
+
+[10:07] Yes, exactly. So tickets are seven hundred and fifty dollars ahead. Oh shit. And uh I'm kidding. Look, we're we're trying to build a museum here, okay?
+
+[10:15] So uh so 750 ahead. Uh it is, you know, we do put a lot of love into it, and uh uh tickets are available at benefit.mofed.org. Um I think we've only got like 10 or 11 tickets left, so definitely hop on and get it pronto if you want to go. Um But definitely the secret ingredient here isn't love, it's money. Yes, yes.
+
+[10:35] Yes, the secret ingredient here is money. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Um so uh yeah, benefit.mofed.org. Nice. All right.
+
+[10:46] And Jack, is our Kickstarter still going? It is. We got seven days left. All right, do your plug. Let's get all the plugs out of the way for for Justino's sake.
+
+[10:53] Yeah. Donate, donate, donate. Seven days left, or this website explodes. Are you gonna are you gonna really just say donate, donate, donate? Yeah.
+
+[11:00] Donate! Donate, donate! Sunday! Yeah, like that. That's I was just baiting you.
+
+[11:05] All right, all right. There we go. Anyway, uh, yeah. How close are we, Jack? Uh, we're about $7,000 away.
+
+[11:11] So you made half the money from last week. Right. And we have seven more days. Yes. People, please.
+
+[11:17] People, please. People. Come on. Please. Let's do it.
+
+[11:21] Do you want to be able to have a website so that like the stuff that you call in to 7184972128 actually gets put on a website that works and has new and interesting content? I don't know. Do you? Jackie Molecules is crying some sweet sweet H2O out of his out of his tear ducks, right now. And you're crying some sweet sweet ace to out of your forehead right now.
+
+[11:40] Dude, uh like enough with the uh like I biked here. Enough. Enough. All right. Uh today is uh Cinco uh DeMaio, and in honor of yesterday, for those of you that uh listen to this or like uh follow the tweet.
+
+[11:54] When I was in Mexico uh a couple of weeks ago, I bought a nictematic grinder, which allows me to make masa. Uh well, better than the corona, which I detest and better than the Quisart, which I detest for this application. Better than actually, you made the ride next to Ma with me. What a pain in the butt that was. Yeah, that was sucked.
+
+[12:12] Tasted good. Yeah, outstanding. Yeah. And half of them went in the trash at the end of the day. Um people are the worst.
+
+[12:18] Do you know something about people, people? They're the worst. Not you, dear listener, but everybody else. That one next to you who's not listening. He's the worst.
+
+[12:27] Right? Yeah, the worst. Uh or her. Maybe maybe she's the worst. I don't know.
+
+[12:31] I don't know who's sitting next to you. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. So uh the issue here is that it's hard to get some really interesting uh corn.
+
+[12:38] So I observed a lot of uh tortilla, not a lot, but as many as I could while I was working, tortillas being made in Mexico, came up with my grinder, uh, you know, totally re you know, somehow packed it into my bag and got it under the weight limit. Yeah, you ever do that trick when you're putting your bag on the uh on the scale? I put it on the edge. And you and you lift a little bit with the other hand, like you hold it down and you lift a little bit. I I do it on the edge or put my knee up against it.
+
+[12:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh what's up, Slickster? You same with me. Yeah.
+
+[13:01] Because you know what? They don't know how much they don't weigh me. They don't know how much I weigh, they don't have a weight limit on me. Why did they put a weight limit on my bag? It's they're they're jerks.
+
+[13:09] Yeah, yeah. I'm buying a grinder. Yeah. You know what I mean? The other trick is like normally when I bring something that's a billion pounds, I'll just put it in my in I've I've trained myself over the years to look like I'm carrying a normal weight backpack when I'm in fact carrying like a backpack full of lead bricks.
+
+[13:24] Right. You know what I mean? And so if you can if you look like you're like ah when you're going through the line, they're like, Oh no, man, we gotta weigh that. But if you just look like you're carrying a bag, you can collapse as soon as you get through security. But like, that dude just has purple arms.
+
+[13:38] That's normal. He's purple. You know? His face is white as the driven snow and his arms are purple. This is absolutely normal.
+
+[13:45] Like, you know, gr you know, he had a body transplant from Grimace or something. But but you know, that being as it may, uh the point is is that you I couldn't carry different countries have different rules about what's kosher, so I probably could have gotten the grinder through American TSA, even though I couldn't get the powders through it because they're usually okay with electric motors, as long as it can't be interpreted as a weapon. But I've had electric motors be problems in Colombia, and no one could tell me with a straight kind of story what the Mexican rules were gonna be. So I didn't want a chance and so I had to check it. Anyways.
+
+[14:18] Yeah. Anyways. Anyways. Okay. So uh single to Mayo.
+
+[14:14] I come back. I want to get the good corn. I was talking last week at the at the other beards, the one that was here with Rick Bayless, and he's like, Well, where should I get the where should I get the good corn from? He's like, You idiot, go to go to Macienda. I was like, duh, because I know them.
+
+[14:35] Why wasn't I thinking? So I went, in fact, yesterday I did a fast nixtimalization people, so it's not the best, but uh expect more to come. I did uh met up with uh Jorge um uh Gaveria from Macienda, who gave me some of the most awesome kind of corns. I was tasting them dry, just really interesting corn. So the one I I did yesterday was a white bolita from Michael, uh, which was just had an incredible kind of corn, kind of almost like a almost like a movie theater corn taste right out of the dry, uncooked.
+
+[15:02] Whoa, that's wow. Yeah, so I nixtimalized it yesterday. So now we're my game need I need to get my Nixon uh my nixdomatic uh kind of tuned in more, it needs to be broken in. I need another couple pounds of masa. And I need to get my tortilla press in order, man.
+
+[15:13] I have that Victoria, the regular Victoria tortilla press, and it's just weak. Everyone says it's great, but I look at it and there's too much slop in the freaking hinge, right? So, like it pinches it in the in an angle. So the tortillas A, they're too thick on the one side, even if I double flip them, I'd have to quadruple freaking flip them to get them the way I want, and then I'm always over pressing the one side that's closest to the freaking handle. Why don't they just machine the thing with the right freaking thickness for what I want?
+
+[15:38] So I'm gonna have to build some spacers or else get a better press. Because the lady who like did the best that I saw in Mexico, I mean, I didn't see any of the sweet, sweet old you know, abuelitas doing it with the hand pat. That's awesome, it's credible. But like these guys weren't using the little Victoria like hand press that I was using. They were using two sheets of giant coal roll steel with a with a big pipe on it.
+
+[15:59] And they were just like, and they were like totally even throughout. So I'm gonna more on that later over the next couple weeks. I'll talk about it when I get it but in honor of the Cinco de Maya, I brought in some treats from Mexico for us. Nice. Yeah?
+
+[16:13] So I have I don't know if I talked about these before, but uh these are from Puebla, these are Camotes. You know these? No. So apparently, these uh these nuns, I don't know, Santa Clara, Santa Clara, or something like this. These nuns use this like uh this like sp fancy sweet potato that grows around Puebla, and it's only made in Puebla, they call it Camotes, and they make these sweets with flavors in them.
+
+[16:35] So when we like they're different flavors, you can read semi-Spanish so you can tell me. And then Jack, you can have some of these. And then also I brought in my favorite Mexican confection. Mazapan. Oh, nice.
+
+[16:47] Mazapan is like their take on marzipan, but it's actually made, it's just made with peanuts, and it has a texture of hollow. This is what Hal of the Witches it would be. Sorry, all of the grease in the Middle East. This is what Halva wishes it could be. For those of you that aren't uh allergic to the peanut.
+
+[17:02] Are you allergic to the peanut? Not allergic to the peanut. Thankfully. Have some peanut. Jack, peanut peanut product.
+
+[17:07] Love it. Yeah, here, have one. Come take one. Cooking issues. Recorded in a studio that may contain nuts.
+
+[17:15] Okay. Now let's get to some questions. You like that, right? You try that? You try it?
+
+[17:19] You guys are so slow. I would have finished the whole box by now. Thanks, dude. I know, man. You do hungry hungry hippos, but uh, you know, I like to savor things.
+
+[17:26] Oh you know what? Jerk. It's called mindfulness, Dave. It's a new thing. What flavor are you opening on the commodities?
+
+[17:35] Wow, we had to do the smarmy accent. Is that smarmy? That's just my normal voice, man. Why why you know what I like about them? They dry out on the outside, but the inside has like a kind of an awesome kind of a texture.
+
+[17:45] Yeah. They're only made in Puebla, baby. Why don't we take a really quick break now? All right, we'll come right back with some actual questions on cooking issues. And we don't have to do a commercial thing because we're brought to us by us.
+
+[19:25] Yeah. How about that? Is that because nobody loves us enough to support us anymore, Jackson? No, they love us. We're just switching it up.
+
+[19:30] Cooking YouTube is supported by absolutely nobody. Yeah. Oh, that's not true. So rough. Let me ask you a question, though.
+
+[19:36] I was wondering the other day, who's the largest supplier of uh heritage and rare breed meats. I think it starts with uh H. Gee, I don't know. I can't place it. I can't place it.
+
+[19:52] I can't. I'm taking my tongue, man. I can't. I can't. Yeah.
+
+[19:57] I don't know. I don't know. I am Patrick Martin. All right, Peter, do your Patrick Martin's. No, man, you can't have me do that.
+
+[20:07] I can't do it. I don't know what you're talking about. You're the one who has a good impression. You're a liar. Sam Geiger.com.
+
+[20:13] That's HeritageFoods USA.com. Oh, yeah. I see, because he's because Patrick would get mad. Yeah, yeah. He's probably calling and saying, What are you doing?
+
+[20:21] He's too busy selling selling meat right now. Selling heritage meats. Sam Geiger wrote in a while back with cold pack squirrel. That's right. Cold pack squirrel wants to know.
+
+[20:31] Hey, can uh you discuss the best way to cook squirrel that have been cold packed canned thanks Sam Geiger. Well, Sam, I hate to break this to you, buddy. It's cold pack can suckers already cooked. Yeah. You don't need to cook it again.
+
+[20:44] But I think uh I was reading actually a lot on um squirrel. The success of squirrel meat canning, and I've never done it. I knew a guy in um I swear to God, I knew a guy in North Carolina who used to pay his landscaping crew in squirrel. You know what I'm saying? Because I I've only had squirrel in mixed in with stews in North Carolina.
+
+[21:04] So when you're making a squirrel that way, there's really no way for me to tell you I know what squirrel tastes like. It's like when someone gives you little tidbits of alligator that are encoded in like a half inch of batter and fried to within an inch of its life, right? Right? So, like Veronica, what does that taste like? Tastes like fry.
+
+[21:18] Am I right? Exactly. And it's pretty chewy. Yeah. I've had bigger pieces of alligator, and it's kind of like it needs to be really fresh.
+
+[21:27] I had like previously frozen, refrozen, like kept in somebody's like swamp cooler alligator. And in big chunks, you don't want that. Is it like snake? I for some reason I imagine it being like snake. Uh I've only had snake in small chunks with a taste like fry.
+
+[21:39] I've never had like a whole grilled snake. Oh, man. I'm sure it's good. I love snake. No, but it's gonna be fresh, right?
+
+[21:44] Yeah, yeah. I'm sure it's a delicate meat that is abused too much by freezing and refreezing. That's the only large chunk alligators I've ever ta cooked, tasted have been cooked that way. So I'm not but and similarly with squirrel. I'm gonna go ahead and say that I've never uh I've never had it in such a way that I know I could say this is what squirrel tastes like.
+
+[22:02] My guess is it tastes like rabbit. I hear that how squirrel tastes is vitally dependent on how it was skinned, whether all the glands have been taken out of the squirrel. Um that said, I mean, I mean I'm sure it's like uh I'm sure it's like rabbit. So if you'd use it anyway, you would use like a canned kind of uh a rabbit, any kind of a white meat. Strangely, all of the cold pack canning, they can in um in kind of liquids, not in fat, because I think they're worried about the fat thing, because I think it would be good to have it like Riet.
+
+[22:28] I would want like put some pork fat up in that piece and make it Riet style, right? Wouldn't that be delicious? Yeah, yeah. If anyone out there has made, hey, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is here, move my bag, please. Uh and my helmet, please.
+
+[22:41] Um I would love to have some squirrel riette. You know what I'd call that? Squirriette. Oh, very well, I don't know. It's not a piper level pun, but it's it's okay.
+
+[22:52] Welcome back to the land of New York. Thank you. Well, you're wearing like something very tropical, considering you're just in uh you were in Chicago, not Hawaii. Did you think you were going to Hawaii? No, I this is the shirt I bought the day when we were late after moving.
+
+[22:59] Remember? No, but uh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh we're we were in the process of moving Booker and Dak's lab, by the way, up to Connecticut. So uh do you have any uh we talked about Mark. Oh good.
+
+[23:15] We talked about who else do we mention? Christina Tosi. Right. Mike Anthony. Right.
+
+[23:19] Anyone else we know? Anyone else winners, uh, friends of the Friends of the Program comes with us? Oh, wait, wait, Wiley got inducted into the state. Oh, yeah. He didn't win, it was it was a slam dunk.
+
+[23:27] That's just like a lifetime achievement. But still it's an appolate. Oh, Alan Benton? But I mean, it was like no, no, it was like an America's uh if it was, it would be Sam at restaurant. What do you guys think?
+
+[23:40] Oh yeah, well, it depends what you're using it for, right? Benton's bacon as a culinary bacon, but uh Sam Edwards isn't eating bacon. Okay, fair enough. What were you saying Benton was winning for Sus? No, it was like the America he knew he was winning too.
+
+[23:53] It was like a Wiley kind of award. Yeah. You know what? I whatever. The only time I ever won something like that, they didn't tell me ahead of time.
+
+[24:00] You know what the worst part of this award was, this program? So in Mark's speech, he thanks sobriety at the end, right? Like what? Hold on. And then all these other chefs were like, oh man, uh, they don't think I'm gonna drink tonight, man.
+
+[24:14] It's you know. So I was like, I can't take a bottle of champagne and a straw now because Well, it wasn't really a party atmosphere anyway, with Josh and everything, right? Or was it? Not everyone knew. I've been in situations like that where people are trying to have a festive thing and something really awful has just happened, and only some of the people know, and it's very tension.
+
+[24:31] We did have a moment of silence, though, for uh Homorrow. Because they knew that ahead of him. Well, he's from Chicago. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[24:39] Yeah. Yeah. Bad year for food all the way uh around. Shaw, too from E Gullet was this year, right? I don't know who that is.
+
+[24:48] Yeah. Uh well, good for paying attention to the world stuff. Um he went on after e uh egullah to be one of the founders of Quirky. Oh, the air conditioning company? They're not an air conditioning company.
+
+[24:59] That's just anything. You know what I mean, yeah. Yes. Uh okay. Next question in from Trudy.
+
+[25:05] Uh says, Hey, Dave, oh, yeah. Nastash. Nastash, I gave her a whole pack of that. I have a whole. She's like, I'm done.
+
+[25:11] I'm done with the sweet potatoes. I'm done with it. Um. Hiya, Dave, Nastasha and Jack, and now also Peter and Veronica. This is Veronica, by the way, Nastasia.
+
+[25:20] She works with the music. Hi. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Uh, I have a high look uh, this is a good word.
+
+[25:24] I have a hydrocolloid conundrum. I like conundrums. They're good. Uh, I've been trying to invent slash create a frozen moose pudding concoction. A frozen moose pudding concoction, right?
+
+[25:35] Say that with your say that with your most snoot tootly. Puebla. I also need to put my monocle on to do that properly. You don't have your planner's peanut monocle at all times with you? I usually pack it, but monocle packing.
+
+[25:50] All right. I'm playing around with a combo of agar, xanthan, polydextrose, psyllium, which I've never used. I mean, I know what it is, and flax, basically everything I have on hand. I haven't been like that's like a juice bar stuff, right? You're down with the psyllium, right?
+
+[26:03] You pay attention to people do. No, I don't pay attention to it. You just you're the one that tells me all the juice trends. Yeah, I know all the yeah, but I don't I don't know cilia. What about you?
+
+[26:11] What are you, Veronica? You juice trend person? Are you a juice person? I'm a dessert person. Thank goodness.
+
+[26:16] Dessert. Dessert, God bless dessert. You know that uh a lot of places now are toning down on desserts because their margins aren't as high. They'd rather flip the tables. Desserts have higher because the ingredients in desserts usually have you read that article?
+
+[26:27] There's a bunch of articles on this. I didn't, but that's just because I'm not their customer. If I was there, I would I would order enough desserts to make their margins pretty high. Yeah. Well, no, but in other words, like just like chocolate and cream and stuff.
+
+[26:37] It's just expensive stuff. Expensive, yeah. You know what I mean? A lot more expensive than mashed taters. Very true.
+
+[26:43] Poters is cheap. Um I don't know what's prompted that right now. Well, I can walk into a like try to make like uh whatever. I'm just saying. Like, you know, this is why this is why that's like one of the most ubiquitous sides.
+
+[26:57] Is because it's free. Yeah, yeah. Rice, potatoes, beans, all you know, fundamentally free. I haven't been having much luck though, since it always comes out slimy. What's your is uh you hate things that are slimy styles, right?
+
+[27:09] Mm-hmm. Okra. Oh my god, it's dust. Remember that okre that we Which No, it wasn't okre, that slimy. Oh my god, the yam, that Japanese slime yam.
+
+[27:19] What's it called? Oh, Tororo. Isn't it start with an M? N? Well there's sticky yam that's like grated and then it's yeah, it's no, but the the the whole one.
+
+[27:28] It's called like na nine. Oh my god. We had the most like HR unfriendly moment in the French culinary where someone had peeled the entire it's like a two-foot long ballast. There you go. And and you peel it and it just self-slimes, like it's made out of personal lubricant.
+
+[27:47] Did you smash it or did you? No, well we tried whole. Oh god. Everyone was like, oh everyone was like, oh! Like that.
+
+[27:58] That's pretty that's pretty much how it went. Uh yeah. See you guys next week on Cook. Uh yeah. Anyway.
+
+[28:08] Uh haven't been having much left though since it always comes out slimy. See, this is the problem with the show. This is why, like we like aren't nominated. Yeah, because like I say the word slimy, and then for like three minutes we're talking about yams. I got a mental issue.
+
+[28:22] I'm trying to reduce the Xanthan as much as I can since I think this might be the problem. Well, it is. Look. Xanthan is some slimy. It's not really slimy, it's snotty.
+
+[28:31] Like Xanthan is like snot. And also, like, even in like relatively small concentrations. Remember, Xanthan is supposed to be used in very small concentrations. In relatively small concentrations, it has that like jiggly, that jiggly, like you know, where like you twist like a container of it, and the outside starts rotating, but the center stays still for a minute, and then it like j like it like has that back motion, that like shoulder flick back motion to it. It's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
+
+[28:58] And and and it's not better than yours, which is weird. They come to the yard and they're still like, no, I'll keep I'll keep I'll keep the other milkshake that I already have. Um anyways, um I think the Xanthan might be the problem, but I can only reduce it so far before there's no more thickening effect. See, here's the thing you shouldn't really use Xanthan as a thickener. You should use Xanthan as a uh as a stabilizer, right?
+
+[29:20] Not an emulsifier, but a stabilizer. Uh well, I'll finish reading your thing before I get it, because I have this terrible habit of just going off into tangents. It's like I can't get rid of it, I'm sorry. Don't say it. This is why, you know, they have me write a book because there you're forced to follow some sort of linear thing.
+
+[29:33] If you go to tangents, at least like there you can put them in footnotes or something. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whatever. Uh I also have agar.
+
+[29:39] I got egot. But I'm not sure how to throw that into the mix. I have yet to use any eggs since I'm trying to keep it vegan. Vegan face. What?
+
+[29:50] Uh, you just, you know. I know. I was so happy you made it here, but then you disappointed me with the lack of vegan face. You know what I mean? Uh I want to keep it vegan if doable.
+
+[30:00] I know this posed problem lack specifics, but I just want to learn more about what gums will help and which won't, since I'm really fascinated by hydrocolids in general. I've also been wondering about guar gum. Is this redundant if I already have Xanthan? No, it is not. Thing with guar is uh so guar is very closely related to locust bean gum, but uh guared to be cheaper.
+
+[30:22] Now that fracking is there, it's not. But bad guar has a very specific beanie taste, and um it tastes like uh like um not chick uh black-eyed pea flour. You ever had black-eyed pea flour? Anyway, there are certain like African dumplings made with black-eyed pea flour, and uh so I used to have black-eyed pea flour around. And uh it tastes like ground-up dried black-eyed peas.
+
+[30:43] Right. Right? Which is okay if that's what you want, but not if you don't. Has a distinctive flavor. Yeah.
+
+[30:49] Yeah, which is unpleasant in ice cream, let's say. So you have to get a higher, more purified form of uh guar called flavor-free guar. And you can get that from uh a couple places the one I use is from T I C gums, flavor-free guar NT1000 or 4,000 or something. It's been a long time since I've had to buy it because it lasts a long time. Uh conjac.
+
+[31:07] I haven't used a lot of conjac. Conjac, a lot of people use it, but I haven't used it a lot, uh, which I just got a small amount of, I have yet to test gel-an, uh, methyl cellulose, CMC, gum arabic, and locust bean gum. Will any of these help? So these are like a long list of different hydrocolloids. Each has their application here.
+
+[31:21] Uh, which would you prioritize in terms of usefulness in the kitchen? I can't afford all of them, and so I'm looking to equip myself with the best Swiss army knives. Okay. First hydrocolloid that I'd learn to use 100% inside, outside, upside down, is agar. Why?
+
+[31:35] Because it's super friendly, you can buy it anywhere, um, and it can do a lot. And so for for your situation, you could either do a light set agar, right? So you could whip it into a uh into a mousse with a light set agar and then let it set, right? And it'll set, it'll gel uh in that moose form, use a small amount of agar, and you can get a really nice texture, like two percent, uh sorry, uh uh 0.2% two grams in a uh two grams per liter of agar will give you a nice, like very easy to break gel that'll just hold that gel there uh while it's been foamed up after it sets, and it sets at a relatively gel-an probably even better for that, and you could use roughly the same amount because gel an sets faster than agar does, but both of them will work. Agar, not freeze sauce stable, which is good.
+
+[32:22] Why? Because when it melts in your mouth, right, the structure of the agar will be obliterated because it's not free sauce stable. So that's good. But um then things like guar can stop uh when it's frozen, there's still liquids in there uh because you haven't fully frozen it, because if you did it would be hard like a rock, which is not. So things like guar will act as a kind of uh stabilizer to stop the liquids and solids from separating from themselves.
+
+[32:49] Xanthan will act as also in a similar way to uh the light agar would act as a kind of thin gelling agent. Don't use enough xanthan for it to actually be a thickener. Use it like very low percentages, like a quarter of a percent, like two and a half grams per liter, something like there, just to add a little bit of extra uh set, like a yield point to the uh to the thing. What I recommend is this. Go on, I don't agree with everything he says, uh obviously, but go on Martin Larish's website, which is Chymos, download the latest version of his hydrocolloid thing, and then just flip through uh zillions of his of the recipes that he crabs from all over the internet and all people, and kind of get a feel for what you like, try one or two of them, see what you think.
+
+[33:28] I definitely don't agree with all of the with all of it uh by any standard, but uh go check that out and obviously check out uh there's huge uh custard and pudding sections in the modernist cuisine. And if you don't own it, you know there are still some reasons for the local library. Did you know that you could, for instance, if you don't own Modernist Cuisine, you can go there and look at it. Right. Yeah, although I've got a patient caller on the line.
+
+[33:52] Patient caller, you are on the air. And I have a question about uh pina coladas. Oh, nice, pina colatis. All right. What do you got?
+
+[34:07] Oh, do we? Yeah, there we go. You use uh Coco Lopez, right? Yep. And um if I don't want to use that, let's say I want to like try and make my own at home or add something to like coconut cream, um, I'm wondering what I could add.
+
+[34:20] Like, should I just kind of add the chemicals on the back of the container, or is there anything you'd recommend? Yeah, so by the way, for a while we thought we'd start calling Nastasia Coco Lopez, but she didn't like it, so we stopped. Uh but the I might have to pick that one up. Yeah. So, okay, the first thing you need, obviously, is um you're gonna need like a very fatty, like a coconut milk product, very fatty, and you're also gonna need, so you want it thick, a lot of sugar, and you're gonna need a stabilizer.
+
+[34:51] Now, uh coconut fats in drinks are have for me been notoriously difficult to stabilize fully using like the normal stuff that I normally use, which would be like mixtures of gum arabic and xanthan. I haven't looked at the back of uh can of coconut cream in a long time, so I'm not sure. What do they use? Do you do you have one on you? Do you know what what they use?
+
+[35:17] So there's um coconut sugar, water, polysorbate, 60 sorbetan mono, saturate, um, probuene glycol, alogenate, mono, and diglycerides, emulsifier, citric acid, water gum, locus, bean gum. Bam. That is quite a list. Wow. Uh that's hard that's hardcore.
+
+[35:39] Uh well, and the reason it's hardcore is because coconut fats are difficult to stabilize in uh low, especially in low temperature drink applications. I don't think you need to go that hardcore because they don't need to stay emulsified that long. I would so obviously they're adding an emulsifier and also a several stabilizers, several emulsifiers and several stabilizers. You could try using what I use, which is just a mixture of gum arabic and uh mostly gum arabic, which you're using as an emulsifier and xanthan, but it's not gonna stabilize fully. How long does it need to stay there?
+
+[36:19] Just for like uh 20 minutes or like the time it takes today. Yeah. I'm gonna have to so of that list, some of them need to be cooked and some of them don't, right? And so presumably if you're gonna go through all the trouble, you don't want to cook the hell out of it because you want to have a fresh kind of a flavor, right? Yeah, I would guess.
+
+[36:41] So it's like uh huh. It's a tough problem. We had a coconut, I'll tell you what. At the bar, we finally came up with a recipe for a stabilized coconut like orjot that we used. I'll figure out exactly the ratios I use.
+
+[36:57] Jack, can you remind me to uh talk about it on the next program? And I'll just give you the recipe the next week on the air. Is that sound good? Yeah. Do we still have them?
+
+[37:06] Thank you, Scott. Anyway. Alright, cool. So we'll we'll we'll get that recipe for you. And I'll e I'll either tweet it on cooking issues or we'll we'll put it out on the air next week.
+
+[37:14] Alrighty? All right. Um the other question we had uh from Trudy uh was regarding fish blood lines. I don't have a problem with the taste of the fish bloodline since I actually like the fishiness, but I was wondering what this part of the fish is actually composed of. Is it basically uh proteins and water?
+
+[37:36] Um that's what uh jellyfied pig's blood consists of when I used to eat at Chinese restaurants. Why do you no longer eat it? Why do you do you have a different Chinese restaurant? What do you what are your thoughts on the pig blood, Pete? Pete Peter.
+
+[37:47] I like pig blood. Yeah? Yeah. You like it at Pig Blood? Yeah.
+
+[37:51] Yeah. All right. Stas? I don't have I've never had it. Also big fan of Boudon Noir.
+
+[37:56] Yeah, that's good stuff. Totally different though. Yeah, yeah, totally different. You know what? I like it when it's got enough.
+
+[38:01] I don't like it when it's so freaking rich. I like it when it's got like enough stuff in it that it's not like so rich. Like when you're just eating like a block of just like b with the bound with the least amount of stuff, blood is just too much for me. Yeah, so actually there's uh I think it's Hungarian. They make the a version of the blood sausage with rice in it, right?
+
+[38:20] It just helps to sort of cut it and make it not as rich. Yeah, yeah, it's outfit. What about Miami? Got a lot of blood sausage down there in Miami? I don't know if we do, but I definitely haven't had it.
+
+[38:30] Can't speak for my people. No, the north, the north Miami. The North Miami, they don't have it. She's from Miami, by the way. I have a friend from somewhere.
+
+[38:38] Wow. Strong. Strong words. That's that's Stas trying to be nice to that. Oh, yeah.
+
+[38:44] I am in the Miami, right? Uh okay. Is there anything in it that is bad for my dad who has uh hearth heart health issues? Um let me get to it. So what you should do uh is uh I will just read this to you.
+
+[38:59] That you can find it. It's called Fish and Seafood Composition and Nutritional Aspects. Uh in the document Seafood Product Teacher's Research Guide by Jacqueline Wheeler. It's available as a PDF on the University of uh Rhode Island's website. And uh by the way, what we're talking about, we're talking bloodline.
+
+[39:17] I'm assuming we're talking the same thing. We're not actually talking about blood. So when you're talking about clearing the actual blood out of a fish, you're talking about, oh my god, by the way, don't even forget if I have time. Shad, shad season. Does anyone out there, does anyone out there know how to bone a shad?
+
+[39:31] There's an old there's an well let me finish this. Remind me. You guys are Peter Peter, you're the worst. You know, I love you in the way that you're the worst. Yeah.
+
+[39:42] Anyway, so I'm gonna re just read you this page, Trudy. Uh fish muscle, we're talking about the muscle that's along the outside of the fish, and that's basically kind of a uh fat storage uh mechanism for fish, especially ones that swim hard. So white fish, fish that have less of that bloodline along the side of them tend to store almost all of their fat in their liver, whereas fish that have a larger what they call bloodline on the side tend to store a lot of uh st stuff there. So it's just a different composition, it's not actually blood. But so and so here I will quote from uh I'll quote from from section 7a, dark muscle and white muscle.
+
+[40:16] Fish muscle does not have a uniform color. This is my reading voice. Nice. Yeah. I like it.
+
+[40:20] Uh some muscles are white, while others have a reddish or brown color. This dark color is usually observed just under the skin. The proportion of dark to white muscle differs continuously from head to tail. The portion also varies between species, increasing with the swimming activity of the fish and sometimes approaching forty-eight percent of the body weight. There are often differences in the chemical composition of dark and white muscles with respect to protein and lipid contents.
+
+[40:44] The dark muscle has greater concentrations of hemoglobin and myoglobin than the white muscle. The presence of dark muscle is related to the activity of the fish. Those fish that swim continuously throughout their lives usually have a larger proportion of dark muscle than those who often rest on the sea bottom. It appears that white muscle controls short spurts and darting movements. While dark muscle is used for slow, continuous movement.
+
+[41:07] When freezing fish, the dark muscle is sometimes removed in order to prolong the storage life of the fish. The dark muscle spoils faster because it contains hematin compounds which can act as pro oxidants. It has been observed that dark muscle oxidizes one hundred times faster than white muscle. Therefore, consumers should be careful not to store dark muscle fish for long periods, since adverse flavor changes may occur due to oxidation. This is how you put your kids to bed.
+
+[41:36] Yeah, yeah. No, that's awesome. That I didn't know that, man. That's very interesting. Yeah, you see, and sometimes, like rather than just paraphrasing, better just to read the damn thing.
+
+[41:44] Yeah, of course. I mean, that was just a really well written, tightly packed chunk of knowledge there. Yeah. Right. And she finished up on uh another note.
+
+[41:52] I want to thank you for your podcast. It's officially my favorite thing to listen to right now. Man, uh it it's gratifying, but also I'm horrified that like there's nothing better than than us. Yeah, right. What a world we live in.
+
+[42:03] Yeah. What a world, what a world. For those of you that watch uh Wizard of Oz a lot. Uh is my favorite thing to listen to right now, is going through a stressful time in life when I first discover you, so you really helped me pull pull uh through it all. Well, thank you very much.
+
+[42:15] Uh unfortunately, I only recently discovered you, so I'm still at the 2012 episodes and going through them chronologically. Wow. So hopefully my question isn't an old one you've already tackled, and hopefully I'll catch the answer in time. Uh okay. So we got time, right?
+
+[42:30] We got any time? Yep, two minutes. Go. I have more questions than I can get to. Uh let me see.
+
+[42:36] I got I got two left. I'll hit some vegetti. Okay. Did I answer enough real cooking questions? Can I hit some vegetti on the way out?
+
+[42:43] Yeah, go for it. All right. So I'm gonna get uh Joel, next time I'm gonna get your oil question. And um, Monty, uh Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon wrote in. Uh he was asking about Douglas fur tips.
+
+[42:55] Remember I told you uh whether you should use the new tips uh or the old uh things. And I said I was gonna test hemlock over the weekend. I didn't have an opportunity to, but he tested it and he says, old, old uh Doug fur needles, bitter, nasty brew, young ones, sweet, citrusy, uh, delicious brew. So that was that was his he answered his own question, so that gave me some, which is a shame because I have a bunch of research here to mention about it, but I didn't. Uh and uh we're gonna get to uh Ellie on the next uh one on his uh on his corn and oil uh cocktails.
+
+[43:27] So we will we will just talk about some uh Brandon wrote in Heyhammer Dave, Jackie Molecules et al. Nice after following uh the Vigeti Chronicles of the past few weeks. I thought I'd send you my thoughts on spiralized vegetables, which is by the way, the technical term. Yeah. Spiralized vegetables.
+
+[43:45] Though I don't have a vegetti, well, I should think not. You're a dude. I'm kidding. I'll go going back to the double entendre. There's big there's big debates uh among our listeners over when she realized, when she realized what was going on.
+
+[43:59] And some people say never. Some people say like three-quarters of the way through. Some people say that she knew at the start. Anyway. She didn't know.
+
+[44:07] Didn't well. Though though I don't have a vegetti, I do have the Perderno spiralizer. And by the way, that's the one that's kind of the Japanese style one that looks like uh it's like a on a slide, and you can do that. I actually have one of those too, but I have it set up to do um sheets, like spiral sheets, and that's how I do potatoes for pizza. So potatoes for pizza, I don't want them in little strippy doodles, like I don't want them, you know, spiralized.
+
+[44:31] I want like those thin, curly sheets, very thin, almost like uh potato chip thickness, thin potato, like lay-style potato chip thickness, but like in long, long spirals, and you just toss those uh salt, pepper, oil, and then those on a pizza cook up just the right amount. Do you like thick pizza on it? Do you like thin pizza? Do you like thit thick potato on a pizza or thin? I don't like potato on a pizza.
+
+[44:53] What? Oh! You don't like you don't like Sullivan Streets potato. Oh, yeah, I don't get that one. Peter, what do you like?
+
+[45:03] I like potato and pizza. But thick or thin? Oh, both ways, man. I'm not a huge fan of the mashed potato because it weighs it down too much. It's leaden.
+
+[45:10] The thing I like about a thin potato is that it's like thin. It doesn't weigh down the crust. I mean, when I've made pizza at home, I don't do like potato tip thin, but I'll go on like uh, you know. He's holding his hands up. You're on a radio.
+
+[45:22] I know, I know. But I don't know, like what, like a millimeter? Yeah, how do they do it in North Miami? How do you like your potato pizza in North Miami? I've never had potato pizza.
+
+[45:30] This is new to me. Justino. Yeah. Hey dude. Uh, wait.
+
+[45:34] All right, all right. I'm almost on my. All right. Uh oh my god, so this is too long. All right, Brandon, I'm gonna get back.
+
+[45:39] We'll talk more about spiralized vegetables. We'll start with it next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:58] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a bird of Speezer in Bushwick of Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from about 12 to about 1245. Joined as usual, with Nastasia, the hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good.
+
+[0:44] Yeah, got Jack in the engineering booth. Hello. I'm slow. Hey. Hey, what's up?
+
+[0:48] And we have uh Michael and Andrea who are here joining us in the studio today because what'd you guys do? What was it? Michael, right? Andrea, right? I got this right?
+
+[0:55] Here. If you're here, you gotta you gotta join in. So what do you what did you guys tell tell us how you arrived here? Uh we put in a bid for uh for to come here and watch you guys at uh a rock in the boat. Uh at an at a charity octon to help support Rockin' the Boat, which is a uh Bronx based organization where they teach uh inner city kids about sailing and boat building.
+
+[1:13] Help them build out their uh you know confidence and uh uh team building skills. And where do you sail to? Uh well they from what I know they they sail just basically up there up uh I'm trying to think what the waterway is that they're actually in up in the South Bronx, but I know they they they build the boats out of their out of their boathouse and they launch their boats and sail in that in that bodily water out there. But uh the two of us are actually sailors as well. Uh we we sail out of another club out in New York City.
+
+[1:37] Right, because I know there's a lot of crazy currents up by like Spite and Duval, right? Isn't that the old like legend up there at the tip of Manhattan that you know that guy tried to row across there and got stuck down in the current and eaten by a fish and he was gonna do it in spite of the devil? I mean, it's not exactly you know where the Hudson and the East River come together if they're not exactly the most yeah, not the most friendly of places to be boating around for those who are just learning, right? Yeah, well, the interesting thing is they also have another fundraiser where they uh they row around Manhattan in these old style whaling rowboats. Um so they have uh crews that decide to join to join up and there's three legs, and for each leg you have to raise like X amount of money.
+
+[2:13] Um but they're out there and they're just rowing constantly all day long. And uh it's it's a really good time and it's a really great organization. Yeah, you know, I've never been out on the on the other than on the freaking circle line. The last time I was in the circle line, the cat the captain in quotes, the guy who was talking, was like unbelievably drunk and spewed nothing but lies and misinformation about uh New York City. But uh I need to go back out there because I hear you can get some unbelievable stripers right in the East River, that there's like a couple channels running up to East River where you can get some great like great stripers, like right near Roosevelt's Island.
+
+[2:43] It's possible. I know the guys I know that that fish out of Staten Island uh sheep said that they they definitely love going fishing for stripers out in the waters there. I don't know about the East River, but maybe the old guys that are along the water along the East River with their fishing pools, maybe that's what they're looking for. But there's so many people here in freaking New York City that I don't anyone who actually knows where there's gonna be a big striper in the East River is not gonna say a dang thing about it. No, no, no.
+
+[3:05] I mean, come on. It's like mushroom hunting, right? It's like no one's gonna tell you where the good mushrooms are. They'll tell you, hey, the good mushrooms are at the top of the Empire State Building. Because they don't want you to eat.
+
+[3:13] There's only there's eight million of us, and there's only so many mushrooms. Anyways, the same with stripers. Jack, I hear we got a caller on the air. That's true. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[3:21] So Dave, Nastasha, Jack, guests. It's uh Antoine from Volcraton, Florida. Call it. How are you doing? Hopefully you're not back on uh on juices and vegetables.
+
+[3:34] I mean, I like to mix it up. This is just to hit the niche the niche group of people, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's up? What do you got what do you got for us today?
+
+[3:42] Today's questions are um is there any benefit to ever using beach bleached flour and is there any disadvantage in milling your own? Huh. Well, uh uh now look it. So everyone that's ever done I have not done the side by sides myself, but for anyone that's ever uh done the side by sides on cake flour versus not cake flour for cake applications. Everyone always says the cake flour is better and cake flour, I mean I guess there's brands that aren't, but the ones that we use like Swan's Down and the other ones.
+
+[4:16] What's the other one? Stas, you remember? You don't you don't like cakes. To make them she eats them, but I don't want to hear anything. Uh no one call and say she doesn't like cakes.
+
+[4:24] I mean she doesn't like many things like she doesn't like biscuits, but she likes cakes, just doesn't like to make, right? Right. Yeah. Um they're all bleached. And so I don't know whether the I don't know whether the bleaching per se does anything.
+
+[4:37] I had once researched it, um, but I don't kind of remember. The bleaching remember also oxidizes it changes the properties of it, but I'd have to go back and do uh I'd have to go back and redo the research to figure out uh exactly kind of what I thought. What are you thinking about? Uh I mean I just wanna uh I'm gonna I'm thinking of going in the investment of buying a stone ground mill. Right.
+
+[5:02] And I just want to see if I can generally apply it to pretty much a little bit of everything I'm gonna be doing. I mean, even I I I don't know, but I mean I imagine I could probably do uh corn flour on there to do tortillas, imagining. Oh no, no, no. Eventually no. No?
+
+[5:18] No. No. No. No. Look, I uh what I want to, I want to get look, there's a bunch of research on uh I recently did a bunch of research on grinding because I was when I was going to Mexico, I was gonna get the Nix Domatic grinder for doing MASA.
+
+[5:30] And uh all of the kind of high end uh flower mills here, the stone ones, like if you're what are you looking at? You're looking at like a red cell, or are you looking at like which which company are you looking at? Uh I don't remember the name of it. It's one that I've seen Dan Barber also uses at his place that it's just it's automatic. Yeah.
+
+[5:48] And it's like around $400 or so. Yeah, I forget all the prices. There's a bunch of different ranges, and uh so none of those are designed to do wet milling of masa. So just don't even I there's a one or two I think that sell that will maybe sell you a stone that's designed to do masa, but I think you're much better off getting if you're gonna do masa is getting like one that's made for it. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:11] Um gotcha. But they're supposedly fantastic at at flour milling, and I didn't get a chance to read the kind of um super technical stuff on it, but the um a lot of people are bent out of shape because most of the stones now are composite stones made from uh aluminum oxide, and so like some people are anti-aluminum oxide because of the old uh you know, kind of the old now discredited uh Alzheimer's theories about aluminum. So people got freaky deaky about having aluminum oxide uh grinding wheels. But that said, I think 99.9%, uh unless they're going and buying like uh French stone, cutting it and like doing it, they're all composite stones that are being made by a Brazil's corporations. Now, you know, it's again, like it's been a while since I researched it, but you you know, look into that.
+
+[7:00] But uh, you know, the the research that I saw uh shows that there's a kind of a different kind of a shearing effect that happens in some of these kind of um old stone grinders, but I've never done a side-by-side with an equivalently dressed uh stone grinder versus an equ you know equivalently sized uh metal one. So I don't have any way uh of saying. But most of the jockeys who do it, they like their stone grinders. The other thing is that now there's um relatively inexpensive kind of uh, you know, like bursting grain, like micronizing grills that use like uh intermeshed teeth that can supposedly do uh a very good job as well. But I mean, and again, I haven't looked at the at the you know uh micrographs, pictures of the flour milled in the different ways, but I assume they're probably different.
+
+[7:47] Yeah, because I was thinking of whether I wanted to get the stone ground one or just the kitchen aid attachment. I don't like the Kitchen Aid. I I mean I love the Kitchen Aid, but I hate the I hate the you it's gonna be nothing but disappointment to you. Unless you're just making beer, in which case it does a fantastic job of like, you know, crushing up uh barley to you to to make beer with. Like making flour with the kitchen aid is just gonna be a source of frustration.
+
+[8:09] It heats the flour up like a monster. It clogs if you put anything oily into it. It doesn't have a very high throughput, it's loud. It's like I I I there's just n I I bought it thinking it was gonna change my life years and years ago, and it just sits in my drawer making me angry. All right, thanks for that.
+
+[8:27] I mean, that saved me some money on that for sure. Yeah, I mean, look, maybe they've redesigned it. I don't know. And I don't no offense to the KitchenAid Corporation, because I'd love it if they gave us some free mixers, right, Stas? Couldn't you use a Kitchen Aid?
+
+[8:37] I have one. Yeah, well, meh, meh, meh. You can use another new ones, the big ones. You know what I really want from them? I want their po I want the pasta, not the extruder, which doesn't work.
+
+[8:45] I want the rollers. Because this way I don't have to bolt down the pasta roller. But they charge like it's it's over a hundred bucks for the roller, just for the roller. Does that seem to make any sense to you? Hunt over a hundred bucks for the roller?
+
+[8:57] Seems high. Anyways, uh I would wait and invest your money in a real standalone uh grinder that's gonna do uh a good job for you. And I wouldn't believe a lot of the hype uh i it it's hard to cut through the hype on the on the grain mills because most of the uh a lot of the I'm not gonna say most a lot of the grain mills review sites are like doomsday preppers and or um like you know people with uh dubious kind of health and diet beliefs and so uh uh it's hard to kind of sift fact from fantasy and some of the claims that are made uh about them. So it that's one of the reasons why it's difficult. So I would go mainly on build quality and what people say about the quality of the breads they can make with the flowers that they do.
+
+[9:44] And uh go back, you'll be able to grind corn fine, just not masa for tortillas. Gotcha. Yeah. Otherwise I'd have to go the hand route, I guess. Yeah, no matter now listen, so like I was talking to uh Jorge at Macienda, because I made another batch of uh tortillas actually over the weekend.
+
+[10:00] This time I cooked them in the tandoor and my grinder, my nixtomatic is is uh is wearing in, so it's actually producing every time I make masa with it, it gets a uh a little bit a little bit better. But what he was saying is is that even if you have a substandard masa grinder, then if you go and manually uh work it on a matate afterwards, it can like bring it up to the level of excellent masa, even though so you have to use kind of a two step technique. He even said that maybe if you had a big mocojete that you could probably like work the masa in a mocojete a little bit to get that kind of uh extra textural thing. He said he knows some people that have done that with good results. But I'm I'm still working on getting my just my nix d'ematic grinder, you know, producing exactly what I want.
+
+[10:40] By the way, sorry to but I just don't want to leave without saying it, but like uh certain uh mills are known for doing better with certain uh products. So certain mills are are known for like uh you know, having the stones glaze over if you put certain grain products through them versus others. So I would like try to figure out what you want to do most and then find reviews from people who do that with it all day. Excellent. I didn't know if there was like one that was all purpose across the board that you could use for all of them.
+
+[11:09] But I again it's been a while. I w I I kind of want uh I think it's Red Cell is the company, but they're like kind of a nut job, so like that look kind of like me, you can't get in touch with them, you know what I mean? And they make grinders whenever they feel like it, and they ship it whenever they feel like it, and they have like some hand crank ones and some a lot of people want hand crank ones because they still want to be able to bake bread when the when the world is over, right? So uh so like you know but presumably, you know, uh uh Florida's gonna be a tough place to live if the if if the world ends because you know, like probably we'll be flooded there anyway. So you might want to say, uh you know, I'm gonna assume that I have electricity.
+
+[11:44] It might be an assumption that you're gonna make. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very good.
+
+[11:49] I also wonder though, what are your feelings and thoughts on people starting to eat insects or that little trend to come out? I think if you think they're delicious, you should eat whatever you want. I've never had an insect where I was like, damn, that was delicious. You know what I mean? It's like grasshoppers are crunchy, uh, but they're not delicious.
+
+[12:06] You know what I mean? Uh and like the legs get kind of caught in your in your teeth. I had the ant eggs, those were quite good. You know what I mean? In in Mexico.
+
+[12:15] I brought home some of the ants, I shouldn't say this because it's illegal, but I brought home some of the ant like bodies for Booker because and he liked them. But I think if something is delicious, then eat it. But you know, and most things that aren't are like fads that end up going away anyway. It's like most people don't actually like absinthe, which is why like the trend went crazy for a while when people thought they were gonna get all uh impressionistic, messed up, like to loose Latre Trek out on the green, you know, ferry or whatever it's called. And then when they realize that uh, you know, it's mainly the alcohol that's messing you up, they're like, wow, I don't like absinthe.
+
+[12:51] Why why am I drinking it? You know, and then it went and then the consumption level dropped down back to those people who like it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. All right, very good.
+
+[13:00] Thank you as always. Super beneficial information, and I'll be talking to you later. Yeah, tweet tweet on in, and when you decide to buy a flour mill, let us know how it worked out. You get it, you got it, man. All right, cool.
+
+[13:10] I got the police on the line about ant legs. Uh well, it was the it was the uh, you know, it was the back end of the ants, and there are these six I couldn't speak the Spanish. There are these fancy, I think they're Oaxacan ants. And uh I I'll look it up. I'll look it, I'll look it up.
+
+[13:26] I'll look it up. But um, yeah, you're not supposed to bring ants back into the country. I said I brought candy back, which is kind of true. Snacks for the kids. They're dry.
+
+[13:39] They're dead. They're not gonna, they're not gonna like, you know, it's uh look, I'm not gonna cause the next Asian longhorn beetle infestation. These suckers are dead as doornails, like dried, desiccated in a sack. You know what I mean? Uh Stas, you like the grasshoppers?
+
+[13:54] I haven't had them yet. No? You what about you guys? You guys eating the grasshoppers? Nah, I've never had any of the bugs.
+
+[13:59] No, would you mean you I've eaten the agave worm, but I don't remember it. It's like I'm not like well, not because I was too drunk, but I'm saying it doesn't have much of a flavor. You know what I mean? Like these things, uh, it's an extra source of protein, right? Yeah, you're not you're really supposed to chew them, you just supposed to swallow them and also go.
+
+[14:13] Yeah, I think you're supposed to bite it in half to prove that you know that it's in your mouth rather than just letting it wash down, I think. I don't know. But yeah, I haven't had one of those since I was in college. You know? That's no they're no good.
+
+[14:24] Jack, what about you? You uh you an insect eater? Yeah, I'm I'm down with it. I mean I've had like the the cricket bars, like those protein bar kind of things. I even had cricket bitters at an event.
+
+[14:34] Yeah, I I had the bars once. But they're just flour. It's like cricket flour. Right, exactly. I but I don't think that they're I mean like I I wasn't like, you know what?
+
+[14:44] W when you're cooking something, like, you know what this needs? This needs a pinch of cricket flour. You know what I mean? Like d has that come up? Not for me.
+
+[14:52] No. I have another caller. Caller, you were on the air. Fantastic, big fan. Uh so I have a constrained cooking challenge, which is uh gonna be at a beach house and can't bring much lard with me apart from, you know, the few powdered collections I have.
+
+[15:08] Looking for something interesting to make uh for a crowd uh other than just, you know, the modernist cheese dip to show that I can do a better cheese dip than what comes in a jar. Right. Uh curious if you have any fun thoughts, uh apart and I've got the frozen fruit from Liquid Intelligence. But uh any other ideas? Hm.
+
+[15:26] That's a good one. To whip out of it. Well, what what are the parameters? Like what first of all, do you have a particular course that you're doing or is there uh no, I just uh one night. I've traditionally been uh you know, one of the better cooks in this social circle and like to have a lot of fun.
+
+[15:42] Uh I've brought down circulators in the past, but uh and you know, the sears all, but uh can't do that this year. Um but uh was thinking of doing you know, doing a jury rigged rotisserie over a beach fire. That's fine. Um but you know, that's that's fun, but uh not particularly flashy. Right.
+
+[16:03] Uh I was curious if you have any fun thoughts. Hmm. Well, I usually I usually when I'm gonna go to an event and I know I can't bring my equipment, I'll cheat and I'll cook everything ahead of time, bring it and then just do the finishing there. Right. So I'll do all my low temping back at the house, seal the stuff down in ice packs, bring it, throw it in the fridge, and then you look like you look like some sort of like like you know, genius because everyone else is working and doing all this stuff, and you're like, don't worry, you know.
+
+[16:31] I'm gonna start cooking like about 30 minutes before it depends also on like how what do you mean by flashy? Flashy, you should bring some liquid nitrogen. Now I know you said you can't, but like if you're liquid nitrogen at a beach party, you know, as long as you follow the safety regulations, that's like pretty much a win. You know what I mean, depending on how hot it is out there. Um we could find a welding supply place nearby.
+
+[16:53] And so, you know, it's uh it's uh slept down for a week on the beach, so I can't uh can't really pre-cook too much. Oh yeah. Um but uh I like the idea of finding a welding supply place and just uh you know, renting a doers. Yeah, here's something don't do this, but I've always wanted to. Don't do this.
+
+[17:09] Don't. I don't want to hear anyone saying that they've done this. But uh have you guys ever gone on to YouTube and looked at the videos of the engineering um professor guy who uh starts his c uh his uh grills with uh liquid oxygen. Anyone? None of you guys seen this?
+
+[17:27] So he's that sounds awesome. Oh my god, you have to see the video. It's so what he did was he took this hibachi like grill, like we know, one of the round flat ones, sticks it on the ground, puts a mound of coal, like the size of like a whole small like Kingsford bag. Then he puts like a lit, like I think it's like something like a lit stick or cigarette on top of it, and then dumps liquid oxygen onto it and goes. And the whole thing is like the entire grill is melted, and there's a small pile of perfectly ready coals left on the ground in like under five seconds.
+
+[18:02] Talk about flashy. You know what I mean? And like that's the one where you're like, you know, right at the end, you're you know, you're you're you're you know, cooking. That's like the good way to go. Well, speaking of though, that I I've been doing a lot of high heat work recently because I've been working a lot with the tandoor, and uh really really good results with the tandoor for kind of outdoor fast uh heat cooking.
+
+[18:25] Now it's hard to mimic in a regular grill because you can't get the the heat from kind of um uh both sides at once. But what I what I'm learning on a tandoor when when you can't do the low-temp stuff, is the wisdom of uh super high but intermediate uh uh um intermittent heat, right? So in it when you're cooking food in a tandoor uh meats, you go in there for like three, four minutes, and it's like 800 degrees from all sides, and then you'll pull it out and you'll hang it and you'll let the meat cool off a little bit, and then you'll do that like two, three times, and it builds up the crust, right? The same way that a rotisserie might, uh, but it doesn't overcook uh the inside. Of course, remember also with Tandoor, you're usually doing some sort of surface tenderization with yogurt or acid or or beating the crap out of it, which is another time honor tenderization technique.
+
+[19:16] But uh I'm I'm learning the wisdom of this kind of uh multiple cooking and hanging. So remember everything in a tandoor happens on these kind of skewers, and so they'll go in, they'll come out, they'll hang, I'll cook other stuff that can sit around longer, then I'll put them back. But it requires like relatively high heat, so you're gonna need a very big bed of coals like close to your grate. Cool. Is there anything you can do on an open fire on a beach that you can't do on a regular grill?
+
+[19:44] Clam bake. Well, clam bag, clam or clam bake, you're supposed to build the fire in the ground, then line it with sea. Now that is super baller. Like if like if you do an old school, do you guys do old school clam bakes? I'm talking to the guys in the studio.
+
+[19:56] You guys done it? Oh no, I grew up in New England, so it's sort of standard protocol. Fourth of July weekend, you do a clam bake. But here's the thing, everything's viciously overcooked, am I right? Yeah, but it's still flashy.
+
+[20:06] Yeah, it is flashy. But like the idea that you bury everything, but the uh how much seaweed do you have to put over the top to not have it be a problem with sand and crap getting in your stuff? Or do they cheat? Have you ever seen someone do it old school? Seaweed and burlap.
+
+[20:18] Seaweed and burlap? Yep. Yeah. And and uh what do you throw? You corn, lobsters, clams, like how do you what do you put in yours?
+
+[20:24] Yeah, sausage, corn, potatoes, uh, clams, lobsters. I think that's it. And the the lobsters aren't just like so way overdone. I'm sure the corn is delicious. I'm sure the corn, the potatoes, and the sausages are good.
+
+[20:39] And the rest is kind of there for show. But like burying something, yeah, burying something like that is pretty is pretty awesome, I would say. A lot of digging. And a long time. Well, and also how far up above the water line?
+
+[20:51] You don't put it in wet sand. It's gotta be way up there. And that stuff doesn't hold a like you can't. Yeah, you're above the tide line. Yeah, and how do you get the sand to go out of the way?
+
+[20:58] The dump angle of sand is pretty low. A lot of digging. A lot of digging. Get a backhoe. Oh my god.
+
+[21:05] Backhoe clam bake? Oh my god. Imagine that. I want to do that. I in Connecticut, I'm talking to someone, if we ever get something, we're gonna do we're gonna dig pi huge pits in the ground to do big pit cook stuff.
+
+[21:16] But anyway, pit cooking is good. If you can bring a thermometer, they can get down in the pit. You could probably measure it. You could probably even pull something when it's done, but usually they're done on retained. I think the problem with clam bake cooking is most people don't wait long enough to layer the stuff in, and they're dealing with too high a retained heat.
+
+[21:31] If you were to judge it just right with a retained heat cooking by using the earth as your oven, I'm sure you could do it without overcooking because you'd put the stuff in kind of right at the point where it wasn't gonna cook anymore. You just let it ride for a long time. So you'd throw your sausages in early along with your corn and your potatoes. You'd wait, right? Then you kind of unearth, throw in your your seafood on top, it would cook, the juices would go down into your potatoes and whatnot, and you'd be good to go.
+
+[21:55] But I don't think anyone's written the definitive book on how to make a clam bake that doesn't overcook the food viciously. This could be your next project. Yeah. Stasis Stas is putting her don't do that kind of like she's looking at something else. But if I actually said to her I was gonna that we were gonna spend the next three weeks working on clam bake, she would probably you might like it actually.
+
+[22:14] Yeah, that would be fun. More than what we're supposed to be doing. Well, I you know, I hate beaches is the problem. But I don't hate them. I love looking at them from a deck.
+
+[22:25] You know what I mean? I don't I don't like the feeling of sand between my uh feet. I hate it. My booker loves to hug me when he's full of sand on the beach, which is a nightmare. And as I've said many times on the air, I'm that guy at the beach with the long pants, the big wide brimmed hat, and the long shirt.
+
+[22:42] That's me. If you ever see that guy, that's me. Yeah. And well, look at me, white. Anyway, hopefully that helps on the air.
+
+[22:49] What oh yeah. Any of this information help? Are you still there? I'm still there. That was great.
+
+[22:54] Alright, cool. Let us know what happened. Let us know what you did. I'd love to hear this stuff. Tweet it on over.
+
+[22:58] Sure. Alright, or call in. All right, Jack, you want to take a commercial break? That sounds good. We'll come right back with more cooking issues.
+
+[23:21] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn. Red Wattle.
+
+[23:27] Bourbon Red. Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity.
+
+[23:47] Small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact.
+
+[24:22] Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information. Wait, Jack, I wasn't listening at the beginning. Is that Steve Jenkins?
+
+[24:37] That's Steve Jenkins. And who do we figure out he sounds like? Like a mix between Alec Baldwin and someone else? He's got a little baldwin in him. But it's like Baldwin mixed with like it's like Baldwin mixed with custanza, right?
+
+[24:49] It's like a damn good voice, isn't it? Yeah. It's like a castanza baldwin. Yeah, that's uh uh Steve Jenkins is from Steve Jenkins from Fairway doing a heritage foods ad. Yeah.
+
+[24:58] So it's kind of confusing. So so at the beginning at the outset, you say the Heritage uh Foods is the is the uh largest purveyor of turkeys and what was the other one? Turkeys and in the in the in the promo. What but not goats? You guys aren't the largest heritage goat goat seller.
+
+[25:16] Sorry, I'll have to check on that. Yeah, it's just like I was like, you know, I was like sell some mean goat though. Yeah, yeah. No goat left behind, right? I once delivered a uh a whole goat in the back of my trunk to a customer.
+
+[25:28] It was great. Yeah? Had that well, like was it uh we won't say that you did that because I'm sure you don't have a reefer truck. I had a dream once that I did that. Yeah, it was a cool dream.
+
+[25:37] Yeah. All the street meat guys were uh giving me a lot of funny looks. You know where I learned the term reefer truck from convoy song, convoy song, greatest song ever, Convoy. Stas, you don't even like convoy, right? You hate you hate songs that have stories in them.
+
+[25:50] Stas hates story songs, she doesn't like the gambler. You have a lot of questions you need to answer. Oh, you see what I'm saying? She just doesn't want to even deal with it. But before we go on, so we're saying uh the question was in the in the studio here was like I didn't really talk about the the person who called before was interested in rotisseries, and we didn't talk about the rotisserie.
+
+[26:10] I was just thinking that a rotisserie at the beach might be kind of a pain to set up if you don't if if you're not gonna bring a circulator, what are the odds you're gonna bring a rotisserie? And then the point is you could crank it by hand, right? And Nastasia here said that you made a hand crank rotisserie once. What'd you cook? Chicken.
+
+[26:22] Chicken. Well, chicken doesn't take that long, right? How was it? No, it was like whole chickens, like 30 years old chickens. Like a bunch?
+
+[26:28] And who actually turned it? You turned it or you made Phil turn it? No, this is back in a better place with lots of boys. To turn it. Oh wait, in Switzerland?
+
+[26:38] You made your campers do it? She Stas used to be a camp counselor in Switzerland. What? Okay. Yeah, it was good chicken.
+
+[26:44] Yeah. Another thing you could do if you don't want to turn it, is you could go the uh the vertical, vertical rotisserie where you hang it from a string and then you just like kick it every once in a while. Don't actually kick it with your feet, like poke it with a stick. But then it just automatically rotates and then it's but it's vertical. Do you like the vertical rotisserie?
+
+[26:59] I've never seen it. No? But you've seen it like on streets. Like that's how like Oh, you mean like yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it works.
+
+[27:05] Right? You weren't with me in Mexico, right? Mexico, this one place that was making the like the really like the the high-end pastor, the place that Jordana and Alex Dupac, who are you know writing a book on tacos or wrote a book on tacos, actually, it's not out yet. Uh, this is the place they said to go. It's like a gas station or a mechanic shop during the day, and at night it's like an Al Pastor shop.
+
+[27:26] Those guys, they had flame shooting out of their uh rotisserie, hitting the the meat. And by the way, the way they do the Al Pastor there, it's not like uh some chummed up meat like uh like you know, like a donor is it's like flaps of meat that are stacked all around on the thing. And they had such a high heat coming out that they had a really good crispiness going on, but I realized they can only accomplish that because they make eight billion of these dang things, so they can keep it on real high and they just keep going all the time and it's perfect. I was wondering whether you had like a wahwa pedal for the flame, which would be kind of awesome, right? Then you could like DY it, you know, go rah with the flame.
+
+[27:59] That's what I kind of wanted to build. Anyway, all right. Alright. Style says I should get to some of these questions. Yes?
+
+[28:04] Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. Um this in from uh BJD. Please say hello to Jack.
+
+[28:10] Jack, hello. Uh um, wait. This is in the middle of the question. Somehow I missed half the question. It just says it starts with also.
+
+[28:20] The question starts with. Maybe that's how he started. That's how you started it. Also. Usually not.
+
+[28:26] Anyway. Also, the liquid that leeches from the meat I cook in my circulator, if I'm not using it to make a pan sauce, is it safe to pour over dog food for my dog? Well, let it cool first. But yes. Of course.
+
+[28:41] That's it how he started it. Yeah. Also, by the way, my dog, super freaking picky, will not eat the dry food unless there's wet food on it now. I thought dogs are supposed to eat anything. That's what dogs do.
+
+[28:50] They eat any damn thing. Won't eat the dry food. Just maybe show how bad that dry food probably tastes. I've never tried it. I'm sure it's terrible.
+
+[29:00] Additionally, and not related, if I'm doing chicken low temperature for insurance, by the way, uh before frying, can I bag it with the buttermilk brine? Brine bagged or not, what time attempt should I go uh with for squeamish folk? Okay, so um here's the thing. Um yes, you can bag a chicken uh with a buttermilk brine and cook it. Just realize this.
+
+[29:22] If you leave it in contact with the buttermilk for a long time, it's gonna get soft. The whole potion the mother, the whole point of uh buttermilk brine is um to soften the meat fibers with uh the acidity. So I don't actually do buttermilk brines because I find that low temperature plus buttermilk makes the stuff too soft for my taste. I've tried it, and to me it's like a little bit mushy, especially if you're vacuum bagging it and you're actually injecting the buttermilk into the fibers of the chicken. Um it's much more uh uh effective at delivering that acid into the inner parts of the chicken than just simple soaking alone.
+
+[29:59] And so uh you know, I just don't, it's not my thing. I do a milk brine, milk, salt, water, and I don't know if it makes it any better. It's just for years I've always done my brine as a straight milk, not as a buttermilk, and my batter is always buttermilk. I've always done it that way. Um so anyway, so yes, you can do it, um, but just expect it to be a little bit uh mushy.
+
+[30:22] What I and by the way, for those of you that don't know, low temperature for insurance is where you take something like chicken and you cook it all the way through in a circulator, then you let it cool, and then you fry it like it's normal or cook it like it's normal. And the reason to do this is because let's say you're making uh when you're making chicken, I used to have to put in the large pieces of chicken first at the fryer at a low temperature, raise the temperature of the fryer, do the smaller pieces of chicken, then raise the temperature of the fryer again, and then do French fries, right? Or onion rings, right? Uh but if you're if you're doing low temperature for insurance, all of the meats already cook through all the way. So you can just uh cook, you know, everything from the largest breast down to uh the French fries, all in the same temperature of oil.
+
+[31:10] So it just makes it much more convenient because you can go back and forth between products without having to like you know keep adjusting your fryer to different temperatures or adjusting your oil to different temperatures. So it's a great technique for uh stuff like that. And you can just focus on getting the breading kind of the way you want it. Here are some tips. Uh for leg meat.
+
+[31:27] Uh if you're gonna bag it, I would bone all of the leg meat, especially because you're gonna get uh pink around the bone that you're not gonna be able to cook away and no one's gonna like it. So I usually bone out uh meat if I'm gonna bag it. If you're not gonna bag it, if you're just gonna ziplock it, then uh you don't necessarily need to bone it out, but I would go on the high side. So I would go like 60 uh like six Celsius, right? Something like there.
+
+[31:57] Um even though the meat is cooked, tasting and looking around like 64, 65, I would go 66, 67. It's not gonna dry out because it's dark meat, right? Uh and especially if it's brined, it's not gonna dry out and it's gonna get some of that color gone that's that's gonna freak people out. On the white meat, I go a straight 64. If people are gonna be a little bit squeamish, you could do a 65, but don't go above 65 on the white meat.
+
+[32:25] So here's how I usually do it. I throw the dark meat in at the high temperature in a bag. I bag them separately. I throw the dark meat in at the high temperature, I let that go, I keep everything fairly small, I let that go for about 45 minutes uh to an hour. The temperature soaks through, then I drop down to my white meat temperature, I throw the white meat in, I let it ride out for uh another 45 minutes or so.
+
+[32:48] Depends on the thickness of your product and how keep them separated. Pull it out, then I unbag them immediately and let the uh let it drain while it's hot so that you get rid of the moisture that's on the surface of the chicken skin. Then the chicken skin can get tacky uh and then it holds on to your uh breading better. So that's the way I do it. A lot of people who let it cool in the bag or they let it sit in the bag and they pull it out when it's cooler, they find that using the pre-cook for insurance means that they have poor uh uh batter adhesion.
+
+[33:18] And so I just say uh pull it out when it's hot and it'll solve the problem. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay. Um what else we got here?
+
+[33:25] Uh Joel Esposito wrote it. This is like a long time ago that we've never gotten to this question, and now I've forgotten what I was gonna say, so we're gonna have to just wing it. We're gonna wing it. Uh I was thinking about oil dispensers recently as I currently pour straight from the store-bought containers, which inevitably ends up making an oily mess no matter what sort of anti-drip cap they put on the bottles. You should you should come to Roberta's man.
+
+[33:45] The oil dispensers here are like demons. Jack, have you noticed this? Yes. They're the worst. They're the worst.
+
+[33:51] They they absolute worst. Uh I mean, that's no offense to the product. I just hate their oil things. We've already had the discussion about their standard uh the standard red hot pepper shakers. Nastassi and I would both Oh, yeah, those are bad.
+
+[34:05] If I could go back in time and meet one person, it would be the person that invented that and I would slap them in the face. You know what I mean? So bad. It works for like the graded Parmesan cheese, but yeah, but they don't serve that here because that's an enemy of quality. Yeah.
+
+[34:16] Right? Oh, it is, yes. Yeah, and they don't serve things here that are enemies of quality except for yes, except for that free. Oh someone doing it right now. Right now.
+
+[34:26] There's this lady out here trying to get red pepper on her pizza. Unscrew the cap. They should just have a solid cap on it so that you have to unscrew it. Oh my god. Anyways, okay.
+
+[34:38] Uh so I ventured on Amazon to browse the marketing of oil dispensing technology. That's a good sentence. Uh at first I was looking for a machinist style oiler with a trigger and wide base, as I felt this would be a good solution. After a brief search, I can neither turn up said product nor a real deal stainless steel machinist oiler. Yeah, they're all made with regular steel, I think.
+
+[34:58] Um although you remember what I used to have that okay, so the one the one that uh Joel's talking about is the one with the trigger on it where you it has the long goose thin gooseneck, and you're like shh right, you put it in. But the one that I actually like is the one that has the uh curved bottom that goes you know what I mean? You press on the bottom, and it like it's like it looks like a can, it looks looks like a like a like a like a can, like a like a half dome can with a long spout coming out of the top, and you just press the bottom and it makes that metal noise. I used to love using that thing. I had no good reason to use it as a kid, so that I had oil getting everywhere, but I used to just love pressing on that damn thing.
+
+[35:38] You ever have one of those styles? You know what I'm talking about though, right? Yeah. You've probably seen them in like old cartoons from the 40s. Uh okay.
+
+[35:45] Then I thought about what the ultimate dispensing device would be and what sort of challenges would it need to overcome. These are the challenges in bullet point form. No drips down the side of the container, thermally insulated. Now, why does it need to be thermally insulated? Why?
+
+[35:59] Because you're gonna have it too close to your stove? Maybe just don't keep it too close to your stove, right? Although I do have that problem. Sometimes my oil jug, I have a I have a three-liter jug of uh uh olive oil that I keep a can neck that I keep next to my stove. Sometimes it gets a little warm, maybe thermally insulated.
+
+[36:14] I don't know. Completely opaque to avoid light-based oxidation. Alright, I get that. Here's the problem, though. If it's completely opaque, you don't know how much is in there unless you do it by weight.
+
+[36:22] What? You could add like a glass um window so you can see how much is left. Right, and then presume well, because right, because not that much light's going through the glass. Or an oil dipper. A oil dipper, like a car, like a dipstick.
+
+[36:35] A dipstick. I just had to teach Dax what a dipstick was because we got this tractor over the weekend, like an old tractor from the 70s, and I was like, this is a dipstick. It's not something you call your buddies, it's something that measures oil. Uh and showed them how to wipe it down, and yeah. Been a while.
+
+[36:50] Because, you know, in like a modern car, like I have a Subaru, I've I haven't looked at the oil once. I don't even know if my Subaru has a dipstick. I don't have no idea. Uh anyway. Uh devoid of oxygen to mitigate rancidity.
+
+[36:58] That's a good call, right? And pressurized for spraying across pan or grill surfaces. Presumably Joel doesn't like uh the well, here's the thing. I think okay, anyway, I'll f I'll finish reading and then we'll go into it. This sounds a lot like a thermal whip to me.
+
+[37:17] Thermal whip is the EC uh whipped cream maker, but the one that's insulated, right? They're fantastically expensive. They're used typically because you have something hot that you want to keep hot or cold that you want to keep cold, but you don't want to keep your whipper in the fridge or keep it in the in in a hot water bath. So you can either pre-chill or preheat the inside of it, fill it with hot or cold, and it'll stay hot or cold like a thermos for a long time. Right?
+
+[37:41] Yeah. But they're about twice the size of the equivalent uh EC would be if it wasn't a thermo whip. Anyway. Uh it sounds a lot like a thermal whip to me, uh utilizing non-fat soluble chargers, i.e. CO2.
+
+[37:52] CO2 is soluble in fat, not as much as N2O, but it is soluble in fat so much. With a stubby narrow piping or injection tip attached, you could charge it once and empty the headspace to provide a gas flush effect and then charge again to pressurize. But what are you using? It's so expensive that you're this worried about it, like argan oil? What are you you're using some sort of like fancy like oil that's like only harvested from a yak like one period of time during Tibet like in Tibet, like at the high regions or something?
+
+[38:17] Right? I mean like that's some fanciness you're going through for your oil. Anyway, but I mean you I'm sure you have I guess look, there's olive oils out there that are fantastically expensive that would be worth uh saving. Yeah, anyway, okay. Um it would be especially baller to have an atomizer attachment to facilitate misting.
+
+[38:33] I'm interested to hear Dave's thoughts on this. Any safety issues, oil, gas, mist igniting in a grilling application. Uh have I ever have I ever sprayed Pam over a grill and had it ignite? Yet. No, I haven't yet done it.
+
+[38:50] Low oxygen, nasties and infused oil, uh, etc. Thanks. Uh, okay. So I looked up uh the oilers that we were talking about. The oil you're looking for, by the way, which are not made of uh stainless steel, is the golden rod, the golden rod pistol pump oiler six-inch model 606.
+
+[39:07] Uh that's the one you're you're looking for. You ever see the movie Breaker Morant? No, good movie. Any guys see Breaker Morant? I don't think they watched it anymore.
+
+[39:15] It was about this guy who got uh executed during the Bora War for for anyway, whatever. Whenever anyone says 60 something, I think of that movie Breaker Morant, but no one's seen it anymore. Jack, you seen Breaker Morant? No, I haven't. Everyone's terrible.
+
+[39:28] You know what? Well, I was dealing with the bartenders and they hadn't seen things like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. That's bad. But they're like 25. What's Jack?
+
+[39:36] Like 25. I've seen all the movies from the 40s. Thank you. 29. Was I alive in the 40s?
+
+[39:41] I've seen all those movies. I'm saying. You're a better person than everybody. Me, me, me, me. Geez, nostalgia tries to have a truth.
+
+[39:47] Nastasia tries to just make me feel bad. Anyways. It's a little taste people of what I have to deal with on a daily basis with nostalgia. It only goes one way. Uh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:56] Yeah, sure. Um, but Joel, why do you hate on the uh misto, the misto? I have to admit, I hate you guys familiar with the misto, you know what I'm talking about? You you buy it, it's a like a little aerosol pump for oils. It doesn't do dripping, it only does the mist, right?
+
+[40:12] I read a lot of I had a bad luck with it because I gotta be honest, I melted one and then and then uh gummed it up. But if you read about it, what they say is that if you store it under pressure, right? It's it's it follows some of your things. It's opaque, right? You could take Argon and like flush argon.
+
+[40:30] Uh thing you'd have to re-rig it to pump with something other than air. You'd have to pump it with argon or nitrogen or something like this. Nitrogen's really what you want to use, by the way, not nitrous or CO2. You want to use nitrogen or argon. Oh my god, Stas, I know what you want to do.
+
+[40:44] Here's what you do. What's that thing called that they had that we tasted at Del Posto? I don't know. The wine thing that we tasted at the posto. What?
+
+[40:53] Mosquito. It's called a mosquito. Anyway, so that's an arg uh an argon purge system. Now you don't want to have to keep wasting argon, right? So you like lightly pressurize something with it in a in like an opaque kind of bottle.
+
+[41:07] And you could probably jerry rig it so that you could get oil out whenever you want it and just pressurize it every once in a while. So because the argon's expensive in that system, right? But that would work. Anyway, so the misto kind of works, but there's nothing, there's nothing out there. Well, anyway, try what you said.
+
+[41:22] Tell me whether it's awesome and how many charges you go through, right? I mean, it seems like you know you it seems like you want to run the experiment anyway, so just tell us how it works. Right, Stas? Mm-hmm. That's what you say to everyone.
+
+[41:31] Like, just do the experiment. Tell me how it works. Uh now, finally, because we're coming in. Oh, I have to I have one more I gotta get before it. Okay.
+
+[41:39] I didn't get the answer yet, by the way, Jack, uh, from the bar on the stabilizing pina coladas. And Stasi, did you want to ask me about your kitchen before we go? No. Let's go to other people, they can ask you anytime. Oh, see, smarter.
+
+[41:50] No, that's true. I mean, I hope you do answer. Here's the thing. Okay, now okay, so Ellie wrote in a question, but is it Ely? Because they said it's pronounced Ely Capital E Lee.
+
+[42:03] But is that eh or E? Ely. Ely. E. Ely.
+
+[42:08] Like the coffee people, but spelled like E. Anyway. So wrote in. Uh congrats again on the James Beard. Thank you.
+
+[42:16] Did I already do this? Did I do I didn't do the corn and oil, did I? Did I do this? We talked about it briefly. Um speaking of cocktails, I made two corn and oil cocktails.
+
+[42:25] Uh black strap uh rum, phalarinum, uh lime juice. Uh I love those things. Um I measured everything both times. Two ounces of rum, uh, three-quarters ounce lime juice, three-quarters ounce phalanum, pinched salt. So I drank the first, and about 30 minutes later, made the second one and drank that one too.
+
+[42:44] The second one tasted much more tart than the first. The only difference I can think of is that the limes I used in the second drink were fresher. The first limes were from an older purchase and slightly less juicy. Any evidence that juice from fresher limes is more tart than that from older limes, or is this just a coincidence, maybe? Best Ely.
+
+[43:03] Huh. I don't know. I've never I've never I've never noticed that. I mean, if I I in general, I have found that sometimes uh the juice from older crappier limes is crappier. Um maybe it's because there's more um pith in it, but also you know how when you cut into a lime and it's kind of brown on the inside?
+
+[43:27] Mm-hmm. And like can't you know what I'm talking about, Stas? It's kind of brown and crappy on the inside. I find that sometimes the juice from those limes doesn't taste as good. But I don't know how kind of crappy the limes.
+
+[43:36] I don't know if it's tart or not, or whether it's just kind of less overall everything. I don't know. But I should we should run an experiment. I mean, I'm sure the bar has limes that are sitting around for a long time. I have had people pick up off flavors though in in poorly made limes.
+
+[43:51] It could just be that you were one drink less sober. Right? Or slightly, slightly less measured, right? That's another another possibility. And um anyway.
+
+[44:04] Uh he also says I'll end by um. Oh. Now this is a separate question. I'm missing, I'm missing. I think something happened with my with my version where it got all chopped up.
+
+[44:18] Anyway, I'm gonna read now uh from uh another vegetti, uh another vegetti call-in. We've had a we've had a we should have a new thing called the Vegetti Chronicles. Spinoff show. Yeah, or the vegetti monologues, where we talk about like all the people that write in questions and things about uh vegetis. Uh Hey Hammer Dave and Jackie Molecules.
+
+[44:39] Nice. After following the Vegetti Chronicles of the past few weeks, I thought I'd send you my thoughts on spiralized vegetables. So I don't have a vegetti. I do have a we talked about some of this last week. We didn't get it to finish it, right?
+
+[44:51] Jack, we didn't get to finish it, right? No. Okay. I do have a uh Paderno spiralizer. Sounds like a coach, right?
+
+[44:58] Wasn't that a coach? That's Paterno. Peternal. Not Baderno. Paderno.
+
+[45:04] Spiralizer, yes. Which, and by the way, uh they those wins were reinstated, right? It's like it's like it's like it's like that person never shot him, right? It's all over. I mean he didn't get shot, but like he didn't pen, he was put he was Penn State, right?
+
+[45:16] Didn't they give those wins back? They like punished for a while and then they gave the wins back, so it's like nothing happened. They got off scot free. Whatever. I'm not gonna get into sports ethics here because I don't know anything about it.
+
+[45:27] Uh I do have a Paderno spiralizer, which seems like a more robust and flexible machine. Uh, it's also bulkier. I'm not even gonna start I'm not even gonna start. But the larger size allows you to make ribbons and spirals out of larger, harder vegetables like beets or hickama, which are too girthy to stick in your vegetti. Oh my god.
+
+[45:45] I'm reading this directly, people. I am not uh I'm not editorializing. Spiralized zucchini noodles are infinitely more satisfying than similar noodles cut on a mandolin. The texture is better, the shape is better, and they blow they blow spaghetti squash out of the water, though they can get soggy or greasy if you cook them for too long. A one minute saute in a hot pan does the trick.
+
+[46:06] Butternut squash noodles are also delicious when tossed with some brown butter and sage. As proof of concept, I attached a couple photos of spiralized dishes I've made. I don't have those photos. The first is zucchini noodles with shrimp and pistachio pesto recipe from Modernist Cuisine at home. Wait, they were actually spiralizing, they were using a vegetti in Modernist Cuisine at home.
+
+[46:24] I don't know. I gotta go check it out. Uh the second is pot roast served over a bed of potato, butternut squash, turnip and parsley noodles. Great results all around. I'm still trying to work out a good technique for making ultra crispy curly fries with it.
+
+[46:38] All in all, it's worthy of the 30 bucks if you have the space for it, especially if you're looking to avoid pasta, eat more plants, or just manipulate vegetables in a new and interesting way. Uh and I'll end by suggesting that anyone interested in these tools should check out the blog Inspiralized. Inspiralized.com, which is the best online source for spiralizing techniques, tips, and recipes. All the best. Brandon Bird in Chicago.
+
+[47:06] Uh yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. I don't know. Spiralized, inspiralized.com. Didn't Becker just write a cookbook on spiralized vegetables or use it.
+
+[47:18] He he's into spiralizing. Franklin Becker. Yeah. I don't know. I look, I just can't I can't make myself get all jazzed.
+
+[47:25] What about you guys? Spiralized. I think it's maybe me, though. I have the I have the vegetti at home. Right?
+
+[47:29] And so I mean maybe I should. Do you think I should get I have also, like I said before, I think I said this last week. I have the straight blade version of the Paderno Spiralizer that I used to make those potatoes for pizzas. Remember because we were talking about it and you and Jack said he doesn't have someone in the studio said that they didn't have potatoes on their pizza. Oh, you weren't here, Styles.
+
+[47:51] That's why you don't know. No, I was here. Oh, you came late. Yeah, it was Peter who said he didn't eat potatoes on his pizza and made us feel like jerks for not having had it. And then you said you didn't like it, but you took it back when I asked you about uh Sullivan's, which is delicious.
+
+[48:06] Anyway. All right. I I I can't, I can't. I was gonna say some other stuff, but I can't get past the vegetti in my head. So we might have to wrap it up because uh it's actually we're gonna end on time because we started on time.
+
+[48:18] How do you like that? Well, maybe we'll maybe we'll start it. Jack, what do you think about that? It's great. All right, well, thanks you guys for coming in.
+
+[48:25] Hopefully, you had a good time in the studio today, and we'll see you guys next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[48:55] Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking News. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Crooking New Jersey coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Bushwick, Brooklyn at Roberta's Pizzeria, almost every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Not joined in the studio uh today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, no fault of her own. Do you have any weepy sad track on your uh thing, Jack? Let's see.
+
+[0:55] I got that. That's not like, oh, you're sad she's here. It's like a wa on her. It's really not her fault. No, like on the airline, maybe.
+
+[1:02] On yeah, Turkish, yeah, and on Turkish, yeah. She uh she got delayed coming back from Istanbul. For some reason, her flight from Greece was connected through Istanbul. No one told uh those folks that that's the wrong way. That's the wrong way to get back to America to fly to Turkey via Greece.
+
+[1:19] Uh which is a shame because we I wanted to should I wait, Jack, for next time to talk about uh Greece trip. Yeah, I think so. I actually made it to Turkey for a day because I was on the same flight, but yeah, but I came back uh a day early so that I could uh hang out in Istanbul for a day. Really cool food in uh Turkey. Really did you know that Turkish cheese is really interesting, Jack?
+
+[1:40] No, why? I don't I mean, I just hadn't expected it. They have this um I need to look up the translations because I, you know, I don't speak any uh, you know, I don't speak anything other really than English and a smattering of German and you know enough French to get me by in the kitchen, but uh I guess the same Spanish, just enough to like just kitchen. Anyway, the point is they have this like crazy string cheese thing, but it tastes like beer almost, like it's yellow. They have like a white string cheese, it tastes fairly neutral, and then they have a yellow string cheese, it tastes kind of like fermented, yeasty beer kind of a situation.
+
+[2:14] They have a sheep's milk cheese that's aged, you get ready for it, aged in a goat skin. What? Yeah, they have a I'll say it again, they have a sheep's milk cheese aged in a goat's skin. Good, very good. Uh they have some like incredibly light, like buttery cheese.
+
+[2:32] They have some they have some really really good cheeses. Uh also uh had some really uh they had you know that they had some very good cured fish in uh in Turkey. Did you know this? I did not know that either. We'll talk about it later.
+
+[2:42] They have this uh I forgot the name of it, oh, Lakerta is the name of it. It's this uh it's this bonito that comes through the Bosporus that they catch, and then they salt, they like salt it and lightly bring it and serve it raw. It's like the most velvety with onions, it's like the most velvety textured fish like ever. It's awesome. Anyway, uh so big surprise.
+
+[2:59] I didn't even get to go to any. I was in Turkey. I had the Selepton Derma. You familiar with that, Jack? The stretchy ice cream?
+
+[3:05] Yeah. Well, it's the first time I've had it actually there, you know, proper, uh, which is nice. Um you know you can bring it home. It's not quite the same. They're lying.
+
+[3:13] They say that it's gonna be the same, it's not quite the same when you bring it home. I think it needs to be manipulated a little bit. Didn't have quite the bite because I paid some ungodly amount of money to do you also know that you can bring dry ice on an airplane as long as nobody asks you. Well, yeah, sure. Sure.
+
+[3:29] Well, I mean, they sold it to me on the airplane. Oh, okay. And it's actually uh when I got home at JFK, it's the first time I've ever been able to actually rationally uh talk somebody at customs out at anything. They're like, Well, you can't bring that in because it's it's uh it's you know it's not cheese, so it's not fermented, it's dairy and it you know may contain eggs. And I said, Well, you know, it's cooked.
+
+[3:50] And he's and the straight faced guy looks at me and he's like, when I make ice cream at home, it's not cooked. Really, he said this to me. I was like, Real we're gonna get in this conversation. I said, Okay. I said, Well, I said what I said, there's uh two basic kinds of ice cream that we eat here in America.
+
+[4:03] You got your Philly style ice cream, which is uh does not have egg yolks, uh typically, and is not cooked. And I was like, This is probably what you making at home. This is a briar style of ice cream. I said, the other and more typical kind of ice cream is uh something uh familiar to more like a Haganda's or a Ben and Jerry, which contains egg yolks and is in fact cooked and pasteurized before it's uh before it's made. I said this I said this particular ice cream that I'm bringing home from Turkey, not only was it sold at the airport for transport into into foreign countries, but uh contains a uh uh a powder uh from uh from an orchid that must be cooked in order for it to work.
+
+[4:37] So I can guarantee that this ice cream has been cooked up to temperatures that are gonna kill anything that's in it. You know what the guy said? Okay. Okay. Sure.
+
+[4:46] Yeah, sure. All right. I mean, you seem to know what's going on. That didn't save me the last time I tried to bring something uh through. Yeah, what was that?
+
+[4:52] You got stopped last time. Well, that was different. So customs, right? Customs job, I mean, I guess they're supposed to ensure the safety. They have a couple things, right?
+
+[5:00] They're supposed to ensure that you're not breaking the law, like you're not bringing in rhino horn or anything like that, right? Um they're also supposed to ensure that you're not gonna bring any deadly new pathogens in, like you're not gonna bring the next uh, oh, I don't know, Asian longhorn beetle or something like this, right? Or chestnut blight or or or citrus green, and you're not gonna bring in the next by the way. Speaking of blight, you have been hearing about the uh bird flu? Oh, just a little bit.
+
+[5:26] Tell me more. Forty, forty million birds so far uh slaughter uh killed here in in the uh in the US with the with the bird flu. Price of eggs going through the roof. Price of eggs, which you know, no one ever talks about. Everyone says, you know, talk about the price of eggs, like that's like the you know, the standard like what's the bull crap, the price of eggs, right?
+
+[5:46] Price of eggs actually now an interesting subject. Yeah. For the first time in in who knows how long. Yeah. So uh usually this bird flu hasn't struck kind of commercial uh uh you know hatcheries, not hatcheries, what's the word?
+
+[5:58] Like egg egg production things. Um this time, yeah, 40 million birds. I mean, we have a lot more than 40 million birds, but the price of eggs has gone, gone, gone way up. Now, I was reading recently that they think they're gonna get it under control by by September, but that's still that's pretty far away. You know, summer away.
+
+[6:14] Yeah, although I was also reading, luckily, that this virus uh doesn't like it when it's hot out. It's much like me and doesn't like it when it's hot out, and so uh the the prevalence is probably gonna go down over the summer. Uh we'll see. And how did I get on that? Oh, yeah, customs.
+
+[6:27] So the other guy was uh when they st I had all these powders that I had labeled, right? So uh, you know, I had citric acid powder, malic acid powder, all this stuff labeled. Guy comes up to me and says, uh, they didn't identify it, so they called in the explosive expert who has this like little doodad that can actually detect kind of what products you have with you. And it was able to pick up the malic acid and the citric acid, uh, and uh I think one other tartaric acid. And it's like, yeah, it's exactly what he said.
+
+[6:56] Couldn't pick up first of all, this guy is like super susp one of these super suspicious types. You ever meet these guys who like goes through their whole life super suspicious all the time? Yeah. I understand it's their that's their job because they're trying to catch people who are doing bad things, you know what I mean? But you know, in general, like, you know, uh who the hell wants to be like that?
+
+[7:11] They walk through life treating everyone like they're a potential threat. Realize it's his job. Anyway, so he says to me, you know, uh acids and then he couldn't identify two acids that I had, right? He couldn't identify uh lactic acid, I don't know why, and he couldn't identify uh agar agar powder, which is a seaweed powder. Obviously he can't identify it's a huge, like you know, uh polymer, right?
+
+[7:34] Uh, you know, sugar polymer, you know, uh polysaccharide. Of course you can't identify. How the hell are you gonna be able to identify that? Uh so I said, uh I said, well, I said, okay. Uh I don't understand this because half the stuff on my body you can't identify, but whatever.
+
+[7:48] You know what I mean? Like you can't identify a block of wood either because it also can't identify cellulose, because it's a large chain powder, but okay, and I have something wood that you're letting bring through that you can't identify. But but sure, and the other things that I labeled were the things I labeled. He goes, Well, and he goes, Well, you have to throw all of it out. I was like, All of it.
+
+[8:04] But you are able to identify the the these things. He's like, Well, but I couldn't identify these, so I have to throw out everything that I couldn't identify. Uh and I the guy was just a a freak, a freak. You know what I mean? It's like how because I was like, you know, look at he and he says he looks at me straight face, he says, Acids can be used as oxidizers in explosive reactions.
+
+[8:22] I was like, I can be used as an oxidizer in a freaking explosive reaction. Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, where on your little computer database do they say citric acid should be regulated because of its potential use in explosives? And if so, where's all the other stuff that I'm gonna combine with the citric acid to make into a bomb? But you can't even say those words in an airport, you know what I mean?
+
+[8:40] Or or or you'll get you'll get instantly instantly annihilated. And the guy said to me, he goes, You have you have two choices. Surrender all of this, or I'll just turn you over to the Port Authority Police. I was like, turn me over to the Port Authority police. For what?
+
+[8:50] For what did I do that? I need to be turned over to the police? So, you know, typically you can't reason with that's like the last time I tried to bring medler jelly in to uh from England, and the lady goes, Um, you can't bring that uh medler jelly in. It's uh a liquid. I said I said, Oh, it is, huh?
+
+[9:06] And I unscrew I uh I unscrew the lid of the medler jelly and turned it upside down and held it there for like 30 seconds. Of course, nothing came out because in fact it's a solid. And she's like, Well, it can be melted uh into a liquid. And I pulled out a piece of plastic and I said, This can be melted into a liquid. Furthermore, I can be melted into a liquid.
+
+[9:24] And she's like, and she's like, We well, we have to let you on the airplane. We don't have to let the jelly on the airplane. I was like, You are a bad human being. You're just a poor quality person. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:33] It's just like you know, because it doesn't make any sense. Like, like I can't make solid things that can light on fire or explosives, but like somehow medler jelly uh, whatever. I don't even want to get into it. I already did. You did.
+
+[9:44] I did. I didn't want to get into it, but I did. The rules are so nutty bags. You know what I mean? It's like whatever.
+
+[9:49] I'm on pro safety. I don't want anyone to think that I'm anti-safety. You are pro-safety, man. I'm pro-safety. As much as you know, I got I got uh hold on a second, I'll move the mic for one second.
+
+[10:01] We're filming in here, and so they're you know, moving around in our spacious studios. Uh I actually did get two really boneheaded because I wasn't being safe injuries this weekend. Two separate ones. Uh-oh. Two separate Memorial Day stupid dad uh injuries.
+
+[10:15] I hit my foot with an axe. Oh man. Yeah, which was entirely my fault. I hit a punky piece of wood and it glanced the wrong way, and guess what I was wearing on my feet instead of safety boots? Freaking sneakers.
+
+[10:27] Oh. Well, at least wasn't sandals. Uh uh, well, thanks for that, Jack. But yes, I so I wasn't I wasn't uh, you know, yes, I wasn't beach bomb stupid, but I was incredibly stupid. And the other one, installing an umbrella.
+
+[10:40] And you know I hate umbrellas, right? You know that, Jack? I did not know that. I hate umbrellas. How come?
+
+[10:45] They're ridiculous. I get poked at that they're all like umbrellas are like the prime example of I'm importing crap on you. You know what I mean? It's like they're all about poking other people in the face, or getting out of a subway and standing there at the entrance while while someone else is trying to get out, fiddling around with your umbrella, or trying to walk into an entryway and poking somebody in the eye or dripping on someone's head and under an overhang. I'm with you on this one.
+
+[11:08] Yeah, they're crap. They're they're you know, just deal with it. Wear a hat like I do. Get a raincoat. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:13] It's like very few uh poncho, that's a lot. Yeah, poncho. There are many other, you know what? You're just as important as I am kind of situations to handle the rain, right? Don't get me started on parasols.
+
+[11:25] What happened with the umbrella this weekend? Oh, well, this, you know, is a deck umbrella, which formerly I was for because I hate the sun. But you know, this one uh uh aspire, you know, it tried to try to kill. But my fault, the walk up there's like the umbrella's not fitting into its pole properly. I'm like, okay, let me turn this so it rotates.
+
+[11:41] So I rotate it and chunk. Oof. Took a big chunk out of my pinky. Oof. My fault.
+
+[11:46] My fault. Stupid. So uh I guess the point saying is that is that it's the things that you don't think like you're going out and you're splitting a little bit of wood, you don't think you're gonna get damaged. Of course, when I was a kid, I was severely injured splitting wood. I don't know what the heck is wrong with me.
+
+[11:57] Like I should be thinking about it. You know what I mean? Or uh or uh, you know, installing an umbrella. That's it's not it's not when you're using a chainsaw or like using a deep fryer that you get hurt because you're on your toes. It's when you're doing something stupid.
+
+[12:08] That's when you get tagged. You know what I mean, Jack? Oh boy. Anyways, this is not have anything to do with cooking issues, so I should probably get off. But Alvin, Alvin Schultz, uh you know Alvin Schultz, uh Jackie.
+
+[12:18] Oh, yeah, long time listener. Yeah, yeah, good friend of the show. Uh wrote in with a another thing to add to our uh Vegetti monologues. He says uh this is his quote. Uh at cooking issues.
+
+[12:32] Uh are you tired of getting things jammed up in your vegetti? And he goes, try this from the trusted folks at KitchenAid. KitchenAid now sells a spiralizer attachment for your kitchen aid uh for your kitchen aid. That's more of really taking off, huh? It's more of an open air spiralizer, Jack, so you can't get anything kind of jammed into it.
+
+[12:48] You know what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. Because who's not tired of getting things jammed up in their vegetes? Um Joe Hanley wrote in.
+
+[12:56] Hey Dave, what's the best way to defrost hard frozen vac pack steak and chicken? Easy. Water. And uh if you have a vac pack, uh you probably also have a circulator. So the easiest way is to uh set your uh set your circulator at like four or five degrees Celsius, uh, and then just run it at four to five degrees Celsius, it'll keep heating the water and circulating it.
+
+[13:20] That's the most gentle way. If you're gonna cook it right away, you know, and you don't mind the fact that it's gonna go into the uh you know danger zone for a little while, then you can jack it all the way to like eighteen Celsius or something like that, and it'll take it up, you know, e even quicker. But yeah, a circulator uh in water is by far the best way to thaw a product that's been uh vacpacked. Like in in no in no question. You know what I mean, Jack?
+
+[13:40] No question. You know what I'm saying? Can you think of a better way? Nope. No.
+
+[13:44] You know what they used to sell for uh thawing things out? They used to sell large blocks of aluminum. You ever see those at the as seen on TV things? Yeah, actually, yes. Yeah, they're large blocks of aluminum with uh I think typically with fins on the other side, and it's it's a tip.
+
+[13:55] But even that is not gonna beat just like, you know, sitting in a water bath with like circulating all the time. You know, just won't work. Just won't beat it. Anyways, uh okay. Uh it's sad that Stas is not here, huh?
+
+[14:08] We had to do it one other time. What was wrong with Stas the other time we couldn't do it? Uh she was in California, maybe on the phone. Oh yeah. She usually joins us by phone.
+
+[14:16] Well, she can't because she's literally in transport. And that's like last week. Yeah, I was spinning stuff in a centrifuge and couldn't do it. And someone's gonna ask a question later. Hopefully I get to it about like uh centrifuges.
+
+[14:26] So we'll get to that later as we're going. Uh Simeon Priest wrote in and basically just said uh that uh they they like the book and and they like the show. Well, thanks. It's a very long I I don't like reading long, long, praiseful things, so I'm not gonna read it, but uh thanks. Anyway.
+
+[14:40] Uh oh, and he says uh my wife and I will be traveling to NYC next week for a short vacation, celebrating the end of the semester. And we'll most definitely be making Booker and Dax one of our mussees. Can't wait to get that first uh liquid nitro chilled glass in front of me. Well, thanks, and uh, you know, hopefully uh we'll see you there. By the way, Jack, did you know this?
+
+[14:58] Istanbul, formerly, or Istanbul, I guess, formerly Constantinople, right? Yep. Familiar with this from the They Might Be Giants song. Uh did you know that? Okay, so for those of you that aren't from New York City, we have kind of an irritating habit of wherever we are, New Yorkers, and you know, back me up anyway, New Yorkers, right?
+
+[15:17] Yeah, New Yorkers. Yes. Uh when you say that you're going back to New York, you don't say I'm going back to New York City. You just say, I'm going back to the city. It's super irritating for other people because you could be in a city as large as yours.
+
+[15:30] You're like, you could be in Mexico City, which is like much bigger than than New York, you know what I mean? And you could say, Oh yeah, I'm going back to the city like tomorrow. And you're like, what it which what city? Which one? And you're like, Well, the.
+
+[15:42] Uh, and it's like super irritating New York have it. But strangely, I looked up that uh Istanbul or Istanbul is roughly translated as a variant, just meaning the city. So they're the same way we are. They're like, they're the same thing. What arrogant?
+
+[15:56] I I wasn't gonna put it that way. Say extreme love of their city. Or that, or that, or that. Extreme extreme love of their of their city. I have uh caller on the line, by the way.
+
+[16:06] Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is uh Justin from California. How are you doing? Uh good.
+
+[16:13] How are you? Alright. A little sweaty, biked over, but alright. Also inhaled something on the street. It never fails, uh it never fails that when I'm biking.
+
+[16:21] As soon as I go a little bit over the limit of what I can do where I was breathing through my nose, I breathe once through my mouth and I suck some sort of particle into my lungs and spend the rest of the bike ride hacking and wheezing all the way over. Invariably. Anyway, go ahead. All right. Um so my uh cooking question is uh but I just got a centrifuge, the CR412 of eBay.
+
+[16:44] Nice. How much did you pay if you don't mind my answer? I paid about 400. Good deal. Good deal.
+
+[16:50] Nice with buckets. It's uh 100% organ at least from what I can tell. I spun it up to 40, 4500 RPM and working. Beautiful. Um the thing that I'm doing right now is I'm trying to disinfect the unit.
+
+[17:05] And um I put it through uh concentrated chlorine bath, and then I pressure cooked it. And I noticed that there uh when I poured out the concentrated a lot of red or a purplish uh color uh was pouring out of the bucket. Huh. And it seems like um if I take like a paper towel and I rub it on the inside of the cups, um there's like a purple ish film. It's almost like the color rouge.
+
+[17:36] Hmm. Um very CSI. Yeah. Huh. Well that has not happened to any of mine.
+
+[17:41] Now let me let's just make sure we're talking about these are black anodized aluminum buckets, yeah? Yeah. Okay. So there's some sort of like something busted in them once, obviously. And sp all the buckets or just some of the buckets?
+
+[17:55] Uh all the buckets. Do you know who had it before you had it, what they were doing with it? No, I don't. I was actually gonna call them uh sometime soon, or at least try and get in touch with them. I bought it from a thrift store.
+
+[18:08] So a thrift store? What the heck kind of thrift stores do you have? That's unbelievable. It was on eBay, and then I offered the person cash since they're a local, and they just happen to be from a thrift store. It's like hey, uh I'm gonna pick up some uh old t-shirts, an army jacket, a belt, and a centrifuge.
+
+[18:27] It's crazy. Thrift store. Uh yeah, and there's no tags on it, uh, like from like who repaired it before or anything like that. No. Um, I mean, it looks like it's in good condition.
+
+[18:40] Yeah, that's super interesting. I don't know what the red is. Look, don't use anything highly abrasive on the inside, but get a scotch brite, wear gloves, scrub it, and see whether you can get that stuff to stop coming off. You've killed with the pressure cooking and the bleach, you've killed pretty much uh every bioagent that I can think of. Uh will bleach do prions.
+
+[19:03] I don't know, and you're soaking it and scrubbing it, but I would make sure that you get all of that, all of the gunk uh out of it. Can you see the gunk when you're just looking at it? Yeah, it's uh it's like a kind of like a powder, powdery, it's like really stuck on there, but it's kind of like a powdery uh sheen that you see if you put it up to the light, you can see like a purple haze. And it's uh purple haze nice, strong. Uh now I got that song going through my head.
+
+[19:29] You ruined me for the whole day. Uh the um you know uh some of the old Juans used to have uh uh or they still do uh plastic inserts that go into those buckets to hold test tubes. And I wonder whether it's just like years of like that powdered of powdering those things up. Like does it look like it could be plastic dust or it looks like a liquid, like it f makes the whole liquid that color? Uh not sure.
+
+[20:00] If it could be dust, I don't know. I would just take a scotch bright, okay, and just like gently scotch bright it, see whether you can get that stuff off. Use um a mild detergent, like one that's meant to go onto aluminum. I mean, I obviously don't dishwash these things because the dishwasher detergent will eat the aluminum the same way that they'll eat an aluminum pot. You don't want to weaken the the surface.
+
+[20:19] But see whether you can get that off, and then you know, a couple more good bleach soaks. The pressure cooking will kill anything um bio with the exception of uh like I say, prions. But scrubbing and uh uh scrubbing and um uh and maybe an extra bleach because the problem is also you want to make sure that there wasn't anything hiding out underneath the gunk that the bleach couldn't get to the first time around. So once it's clean, you want to go with one last kind of bleach a rama. There wasn't this red gunk uh or purple gunk around the inside of the um the stainless uh containment vessel, was there?
+
+[20:55] No. Yeah, okay. So if that's that's clean, like we know, one one good uh couple good bleachings on that uh propped open to let dry should uh should get you going. But yeah, I would get the gunk off because who knows what it is. Especially it's less of a concern if you're gonna spin in buckets, but I usually spin I mean uh in uh sorry, in uh bottles in the buckets, but I usually spin directly in um the buckets.
+
+[21:14] But you have to be super super happy with the cleanliness of the buckets if you're gonna do that. Okay. I'll give that a shot. Yeah, but all in all, great find. Let us know uh what happened.
+
+[21:26] Refrigeration still works. You said it was a C R, right? What's that? You said it was refrigerated unit, right? You said C R?
+
+[21:33] Yes. Yeah, is it refrigerated? Is the fridge still work? Yes. Okay.
+
+[21:38] Here's let me this is a couple pointers to anyone that has this uh has this kind of centrifuge out there. Here's what typically goes wrong with it. It's gonna stop spinning as quickly. It's because you probably need to replace the brushes. Make sure that you take like uh an a non-gunking eraser or something and clean off the copper on the rotor uh on the on the um on the motor before you put the brushes back in, or you'll probably eat the brushes down again.
+
+[21:59] You can get the brushes for a couple of bucks. Ozark Biomedical stocks them, and you can get them also from I think Granger if you happen to know the size. The other um, maybe even McMaster, I'm not sure. Uh I've had on those things the brake units uh go on me and you can just clip them and not have the brake anymore, although it's nice having the brake. Uh sometimes the uh solenoids for the lids go wonky, but you can just take off the front, make sure you put it back on before you do it, and and fix that.
+
+[22:24] And I've had the refrigeration go on me a couple of times, the actual controller for it, not the refrigerant, in which case you can put a separate controller on or just put the refrigeration on manual. But they're good solid units, should work work for a good long time. Great. Great. Well, thank you.
+
+[22:38] Alright, thanks. Good luck with it. Uh hey, Jack, should we take a commercial break? Yeah, why don't I just read this text from Stas first? Alright.
+
+[22:45] Just got out of airport. Hate everyone. That's like except for the airport, that's every day. That's yeah, that's it. Coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[23:10] Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway Butcher Counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do.
+
+[23:30] Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's Heritage Turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts.
+
+[24:10] It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information. And we are back.
+
+[24:26] Hey, you know what I didn't notice before, Jack? What? Steve Jenkins calling off Fairway a little bit. He's like, you're not gonna find us at the Fairway Butcher Counter. Whoa!
+
+[24:32] Yeah, whoa. Whoa. Calling them out. Now that's what makes an ad effective, though. Yeah, when someone's like, hey, you know what?
+
+[24:39] You know, like, you know, Fairway, like the place that I I put on the cheese map. Remember them? They don't have this stuff. Shame on them. Big call out.
+
+[24:48] Had you noticed that before? Yeah, I did. Powerful stuff. Heritage Foods USA, the only place to get it. Yeah.
+
+[24:53] Wow. The only place. I like the way he says red wattle. I like the way he says Navajo. Navajo.
+
+[24:59] True. You know, I well, we talked about when I t I tested all of the um all the lamb breed, not all of them, but I tested like four or five lamb breeds for the Easter. We talked about that, right? Yeah. Delicious.
+
+[25:10] Oh, yeah. Delicious. In the Tandor, world's greatest uh cooking uh well, my favorite current cooking implement. I'm like, look, some point I'm gonna have to do a big study on uh uh on like different kind of uh cooking implements for like different like I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to do a lot of work. It's gonna take maybe I should write that in my next book.
+
+[25:27] You know I still haven't figured out what my next book's gonna be about, Jack. Really? Yeah. I gotta figure out my next book. We should crowdsource that.
+
+[25:33] Here's uh speaking of which I have a caller on the line. Oh really? Oh, caller, you're on the air. Yes, I know you're a great love of cured uh meat products. And I haven't I wanted to hear your personal just what your personal opinion would be.
+
+[25:46] There's such a convoluted argument between nitrates and nitrites and whether or not we should eat them in our cured products because carcinogenic, what have you. There's a ton of stuff out there that doesn't have that, but they have to up the celery whatever to get it to those levels. Do you have any issues or think nitrates or nitrites are safe? Oh yeah, they're safe. I just want to hear your thing.
+
+[26:09] They're safe. They're yeah, they're safe. Look, the fact of the matter is is that all the stuff that's labeled uh uncured with big old quotes that you get at the Whole Foods, some of which I enjoy. Like like uh Nyman Ranch Bacon, I enjoy it. I purchase it mainly because uh, you know, uh I like the way that they um source the and you know have the pigs pigs race.
+
+[26:28] That's mainly why I buy it. I think that the um the the nitrates uh uh and nitrites um argument is complete bunk. First of all, uh uh if you're getting if the bacon is pink, right? If it's pink and stays pink when you cooked it, i.e. i.e.
+
+[26:47] if it is bacon, right, it has uh nitrites in it. So then the question is where are you getting the nitrites from, right? Are you getting it from uh you actually just sourcing nitrates, or are you taking uh celery or some other green thing that is like just soaking up a bunch of it from the ground and then concentrating it from that form to add it? Either way, same effect. Same same product, really, same effect.
+
+[27:12] It's just hocus pocus. It's more it's more BS on the label of on the level of uh saying that a flavor is all natural just because they haven't synthetically created a new compound where there wasn't another. Do you know what I mean? It's like you're dealing with functional equivalence, both as far as as the meat is concerned and as far as uh your body is concerned. Uh and you know, uh the nitrites uh are there to provide cured taste, cured uh color, uh, and to prevent botulism, frankly.
+
+[27:46] Uh you know, and um, you know, so bacon is one thing because it's cooked at high levels. So the argument in bacon is one of uh against you know, nitrosamines, right? Because whatever. And I don't know what the current state of of causing cancer with nitrosamines is. I I really don't.
+
+[28:02] But uh, like I said, if it's pink and if it's bacon, then it's got that stuff in it anyway, and I don't care how it got in there. And furthermore, if you're I don't I don't think that there's you know any research that I think is decent that shows that there's uh a high enough level of worry in eating because frankly, you're not you're not your great-grandpa or great-great-grandpa going off to uh the California gold rush in the 1840s, and the only thing you can freaking survive on is dried cured meats because that's all you can carry in your backpack, right? I mean, I'm presuming that's not the light view lead, which means that uh, you know, the vast majority of your uh food intake is not from uh cured meats. And so you're eating a relatively small amount, especially because as opposed to your great-great-grandpa, all this stuff is fairly highly titrated now, so they're not adding a boat ton extra of this stuff than they used to. And in fact, we're using uh for everything except for country hams, you're using nitrites instead of nitrates.
+
+[28:57] The nitrites uh dissipate even more quickly and you use in in smaller amounts. So really your overall risk level, even if there is a risk, your overall risk level is relatively low, and I would say don't worry about it. Uh especially if you're eating a lot of cured meats that don't require a lot of cooking, like uh or any cooking for that matter, like salumi uh uh or or or whatnot. But it's one of those things that I think is really overblown, and the whole uncured pink stuff with the celery really just gets me uh it gets me uh ticked off because it what the problem with it I think is is that consumers believe that they're getting something that they're not. Consumers believe that they're somehow buying health and they're not.
+
+[29:35] You know what I mean? They're just they're just paying extra for someone to have to jump through a hoop to get a label that looks friendly for the exact same result. You know what I mean? And that is an irritant to me. Yeah, it's an irritant to me as well.
+
+[29:47] Yeah. I hope that hope that helped. Well, that was a fantastic summary. Yeah, and my grandpappy ate way more sodium than I do. Of course they did.
+
+[29:56] She ate all that. Because they didn't have a fridge. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Or my great my my grandfather had my great grandfather didn't have one.
+
+[30:04] You know what I mean? So but it's like I don't know. And I, you know, luckily I think we're coming off of uh if these things go in waves. Like particular hatred for any uh any one of our normal foodstuffs comes in waves, and I think hopefully the the anti-salt wave is crested and crashed and we're you know back into uh real although you never know. Big food companies still spend a lot of uh time and energy um trying to reduce uh reduce sodium for for one or more some reasons valid, some reasons not not valid.
+
+[30:32] But um well isn't it the same thing like with with you know salt products? Correct sodium compound. That is correct. Now there are so the so the things that they can do, uh so let's say you're there are people right who are sensitive to uh to salt and should cut down their salt because they're prone to have uh blood pressure spikes as a result of salt intake, right? That people are right, okay.
+
+[31:08] And uh so what they can do, like milligram per milligram salt is gonna affect your body the same way no matter how no matter no matter what. I don't care, you know what I mean. If it's harvested by Tibetan monks in, you know, in the in the Himalayas, whatever, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? Virgin Tibetan monk, right?
+
+[31:26] Yeah, oh exactly. Well, exactly. You know, although Tibetans, interestingly, uh, Buddhists still still eat meat, right? Because you have to at those high altitudes, right? You need the fat.
+
+[31:35] So these guys are still eating yak and whatnot, plus yak, but whatever. But it's a whole separate discussion. What I'm saying is the salt is the salt. However, there are people that can engineer salt delivery systems and salt to make the equivalent amount of salt taste saltier to you by uh by altering the way, for instance, on a potato chip, which is a dry salt application, they can form salt into uh shapes like spheres that taste saltier for a given level of salt just because a lot of the salt that you eat you like you might not even ever taste. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:10] It might just go into your body without it actually hitting your tongue in a way that you can taste it. So they can they can do things like that. They can add also um other things to augment your perception of saltiness in the food without without there being salt in there. Uh they can also add so salt, aside from being salty, clearly um increases your perception of other flavors. It's a flavor, it's not just a uh its own taste, tasting on the tongue, it's an enhancer of other tastes and flavors.
+
+[32:37] Uh so they have other things that can do that uh that are not salt, right? Um you know, they can boost, for instance, um savory umami and get some of the similar kind of like flavor-enhancing techniques that you can with salt. So there are things they can do to alter the salt in there that aren't kind of hokum. I think that look, all what's hilarious about this is is that most people who are anti-salt are are anti or or anti nitrites, are somehow anti process, anti processed foods, right? But what they don't understand is that the amount of processing that actually goes into creating uh products that are lower in that but are still packaged goods, is higher than if they had just used the the normal crap to begin with.
+
+[33:20] You know what I mean? It's a yeah, to get the amount of salary you have to have to perform that same ability that a regular nitrite would do would be it's a lot. Yeah, I don't even know what the concentration levels are or how the exact kind of process is. But it's it's just one of those things that people uh they believe, you know, they they they just wanna they want to believe something. And you know, yeah, who honestly, whatever you do next for a book would be a lot of fun to get some of those myths and write on them would be I would enjoy reading.
+
+[33:53] Well there's a lot of books out now, they're coming out now. It's a tough subject. In general, kind of like the the psychology and the kind of science of what we eat in in this realm is is uh there's a lot of books being written from multiple sides. So like the there's a book called the Dorito Effect that just came out that has uh uh yeah, I mean I have my issues with it, but yeah, I just I just read it and um uh you know the a couple of years ago there was uh sugar fat salt, and which I had a lot of problems with actually because my my ten the I thought the basic tenet of that book was they were like food companies are trying to make their food as delicious as possible. Stop it!
+
+[34:29] You know, which doesn't make sense to me. But but the the Dorito effect kind of picked up where that took off, right? And kind of the argument of that is showing um the argument of the book, it just came out, right, Jack? Yeah, it did. Yeah, I think the argument of that book is more that um they're making stuff taste good, uh, but that's messing with your biology because it doesn't have the nutrients that those tastes would uh would would normally signify.
+
+[34:53] Anyway, there's a lot of work on on that side. The problem is a lot of the work that is kind of calling uh calling BS on um on movements like the anti-salt movement or or this or like the fake nitrites are written by um people with a real axe to grind. And there's very it's hard to kind of write something that hits in the middle road that doesn't piss everybody off. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and they're and they're always selling you the alternative when they grind the axe.
+
+[35:14] Exactly. That's why they're grinding the axe. Exactly. So, like for instance, like uh the the genetic the genetically modified uh you know the anti-GMO lobby. Let's just take that for for for an example.
+
+[35:32] Like uh now look, from a scientific standpoint, uh it's pretty damn clear that there is that it's that there's no problems with it, right? And that in fact, people are pushing to regulate something that is much safer than other processes that they might wish to regulate first. For instance, people are pushing for GMO uh labeling on GMO products, but and I'm not saying that I don't want anyone to get mad at me, right? If you want like whatever you want, you want. This is fine.
+
+[35:59] I'm just presenting kind of w what I think. But there's the uh people who want GMO products labeled, maybe what they don't realize is that in a genetic modification, uh you're putting a specific gene in to uh to an organism because you think that that gene will help do something, and it's a gene that has a known function in another organism, right? That's what we're talking about. Now, uh you know what doesn't ever need GM labeling or can can be labeled as GMO free? Here's something that can be labeled GMO free.
+
+[36:28] You take and you bombard seeds with high intensity radiation to or mutagens, straight up mutagens. Uh now I'm I'm all for this too, by the way. I'm not against this. I'm just saying that the people who are anti GMO, you'd think they'd be anti this. You can bombard these things uh and and cause spontaneous mutations that may do something you like, they may do something you hate, but here's one thing they are freaking unpredictable because they're spontaneous mutations due to mutagens and radiation.
+
+[36:57] You grow these things and you get something that you like, and you don't have to label it at all. You can label it organic and you can label it GMO free. Now that makes no freaking sense. And it's not really what the GM the anti-GMO lobby wants. If you actually talk to the GMO, anti-GMO lobby, which uh you know I have in various kind of in the MoFAD debates that we've done and over the years, what their argument actually really boils down to is they're anti-big corporation.
+
+[37:24] But no one wants to have yeah, no one wants to have that conversation, right? It's not really the genetic modification because if you're like, what about this genetically modified plant? They're like, well, that didn't work. Like, okay. Yeah, we're particularly against one large corporation, but that's that's part of the issue.
+
+[37:39] Yeah, but you know, the thing is is like what we should do is we should just have the conversation about Monsanto or or you know, whomever. There's a couple other ones, but we should just have that conversation. But for some reason, no one is willing to have very few people are willing to have there is there there are uh some, I forget the name of the author, I don't know why I went out of my head, but basically he wrote a book that said, you know what, the problem is is that food is too important to have in the control of big uh corporations, right? That's the tenet of the book. I was like, okay, finally someone who's just being honest.
+
+[38:09] This is that they're anti-big corporation controlling the food supply. But once someone makes that argument, well, then you can have a reasonable discussion about what the alternatives are. You're like, okay, are you really willing to abandon kind of like uh the system that we have now? And what would the alternative be? That's a reasonable discussion versus the GMO, which does it seems to me to be kind of a uh like you're you're trying to squat Monsanto would still be in business if there was no genetic modification.
+
+[38:34] Let's be clear on this. Monsanto would still be trying to run the seed trade in the U.S. with or without uh genetic uh modification. Like we could talk about patent laws being problematic. There's all these things that can be talked about as being problematic, but very few people are having an honest discussion.
+
+[38:49] And I don't know whether or not um it's possible to write a book that deals with that or or even partially deals with that without just falling into a flurry of crap from both sides that have access to grind, the corporation, pro-corporation side and the anti-corporation side. It's w it's a kind of a weird space to be in, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's every documentary and blog post you read on the subject. It's just a torrent of crap from both sides. Right, right.
+
+[39:15] So when you have a torrent of crap from both sides, like where's the market for the middle? And I don't know, because you know, it takes a long time and a lot of energy to write a book. And so there is no there is no market for the middle. That's not what sells. It's either the the you know, the cheaper whatever they're complaining about GMO products that sell, or the non-GMO products that they can, you know, save their save their bodies like they would want to save their souls by ingesting holy foods.
+
+[39:38] That's their mindset. Right. And you know the pro the real problem is if you read if you read books on either side, and even I'm saying the reasonable books on either side. So like uh take uh um oh I forget the one written by uh by the uh there's a written by uh uh a genetic uh uh you know uh a person who does genetic engineering and her husband who's a farmer, uh organic farmer, that's a you know interesting book. Or uh Mendel in the Kitchen, which is pro uh obviously pro that was written by uh what's her name, Nina Federoff, you know, well known uh uh GMO expert.
+
+[40:11] Um or if you read on the other side any one of the number of books that everybody reads, uh, you know, it's uh you can see kernels of good arguments in both sides, not really so much on on the hatred of GMO in general. I really don't I don't see the teeth in that. But you know that you but i it's just they always bring their BS baggage with them, you know what I mean? And that's the that's the problem. But you're right, there's no market for the middle, at least not that I can see.
+
+[40:37] I don't know. I don't know. Well, I appreciate the uh lively lunchtime discussion. Oh well, thanks. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[40:44] And I've got one more caller here. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, afternoon. Um I have a friend who really loves mimosas, and I was wondering if you had any kind of like interesting ideas for variations, like doing anything clarified or like forced carbonated. Like if you ever try like forced carbonate white wine or kind of anything like that.
+
+[41:03] Yes, okay. Uh so you're you're you're crinkling up a little bit, but here's the problem with the mimosa. So your your friend already likes mimosas, right? So here's the thing. Uh you can't change the fact that they already like uh a mimosa.
+
+[41:15] So a mimosa is lightly carbonated because the orange juice in it can't be carbonated that highly, right? Also, I mean they're not making mimosas with actual champagne, right? Are they rich? Are these friends of yours rich? Not quite.
+
+[41:28] Okay. So they're probably using kava or prosecco. I'm just guessing. Um the easiest way to do this, here's the other problem though. It now, you can clarify, you can straight clarify orange juice.
+
+[41:41] But if you straight clarify orange juice, uh it turns uh it tastes, and this I always say this, even though I haven't had it in years, but it tastes like sunny D or Tang. It no longer tastes like orange juice, it tastes like orange drink, right? Right. Right. So uh what you're gonna look for is more of an orangina kind of carbonation level.
+
+[41:59] And so with with that, what I would do is I would just put your orange juice through the finest filter you can. First of all, obviously, if you're gonna fresh squeeze it, then put it through a fine uh Chinois, and then if you can get it through a paper towel or something just to get rid of almost all uh the big particles, right? Chill it down hard, and then carbonate just the OJ uh and if obviously if you're buying at the supermarket, just buy a no pulp guy. Uh and um just carbonate it like five times. And what you're doing there is so particles do two things.
+
+[42:33] Particles in your in your juice are their own nucleation sites, right? Um, which is problematic. Also the pectin in the OJ is uh, you know what? You probably could reduce the pectin by putting SPL and not clarifying it and still have the taste be right. Huh, that's an interesting idea.
+
+[42:48] I've never tested that. Huh. Just thought of it. Anyway, but uh so there's pectin in there, which is causing foaming, but also uh particles have air trapped on them. So you're not gonna get away, change the fact that the particles themselves are nucleation sites.
+
+[42:59] But by carbonating like five, six, seven times, you'll be blasting the air that's trapped on those particles off of them and making it easier for you to get good carbonation. But then I would have a bottle of carbonated juice and I would have uh your uh bottle of bubbly separate and I would pour them together in this way for those of you who don't want it to be mimosified, it doesn't have to be mimosified, and you're not throwing away a bunch of bottles of um of uh bubbly at the end of the day if you don't finish it all. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's cool.
+
+[43:28] I'll I'll give that a try. All right, and then some other things if you can clarify that are really good with champagne. In fact, I just did it in Greece and haven't done it in a long time. Clarified strawberry juice in champagne. Then you carbonate the strawberry juice.
+
+[43:40] Clarify strawberry juice tastes delicious uh and carbonates well. You're probably gonna have to add a little bit of extra sugar depending on uh what time of the summer it is and what the bricks of your strawberries are when they come in. Usually I like to take strawberry juice up to about uh sixteen bricks, somewhere around there, and like uh you know sometimes they come in as low as like twelve, but if you get them up like sixteen, eighteen, and then you do like uh like either a one to three or a one to four with uh bubbly, it should be pretty good. Awesome. Thanks so much.
+
+[44:09] All right, give it a shot. Let us know how it works. Thank you very much. All right, bye-bye. Okay.
+
+[44:14] All right, we got running out of time. Just a heads up. Just a heads up. Oh my god. Oh, geez, really?
+
+[44:20] Yeah. All right. So Uriel wrote about glycemic load. We're gonna have to get to that uh next uh week. Uh uh, Jim uh Guaneri wrote in about cocktails for um uh a wedding for that he has to have to do for his sister.
+
+[44:35] Now the question is I don't have time to get into it now, Jim. Can it wait another week? Tweet us in. Otherwise, I'll try to put some stuff over on Twitter. Doesn't like carbonating stuff.
+
+[44:42] And also, I need he he kind of calls Nastasia out, so I need nostasia here so I can call out. But let's make sure make sure we can go another week, have you know, have him write in. Michael wrote this in. Hello, lovely people. I did some inside round in large Ziploc freezer bags at 50 C 56 Celsius, uh, which is not that hot for 24 hours.
+
+[44:59] The bags broke. Is that time temperature combo too much for Ziplocks? Also, do you need a puffing gun to make puffed rice cakes? The white light, airy, bland, dry, tasteless uh style of food item. Michael, uh one, um they should not that time temperature is not too much for the Ziploc, not at all.
+
+[45:15] Uh look, if they broke on the side seams, you have a faulty uh bag. If you if make sure you're not using the one with the fake zipper pull thing, make sure it's just a regular seal on top. The other ones always leak. But if you had a leakers in that or punctures, you got faulty ones. You the the Ziploc freezers, which are the only ones that I use, should never fail like that.
+
+[45:33] Shame on you, uh S. C. Johnson Wax, a family company. Um, who I think is the manufacturer. Uh Russ Bryan uh wrote in and he has some coffee roasting questions.
+
+[45:43] Uh how do you get good coffee out of a popcorn popper? I'm not gonna have the time to get into that, but go to sweetmaria's.com, which is where I get my beans, and they have uh they have list after list of how to use a whirly pop, which is what I use. Oh, I assume you meant a whirly pop and not an air popper. Air poppers are totally different. But luckily, Sweet Maria's has good advice on both.
+
+[46:00] They're gonna give you much more detailed advice than uh I can give you. If you read that and you have more questions, ask me specific questions on that and I'll get back to you. Franklin wrote in uh on puffing millet. I want to puff my own millet. Can I use a popcorn machine?
+
+[46:12] Assuming also you mean a whirly pop and not a an air popper because millet is too tiny to pop in a uh an air pop. It'll just spray out all over your kitchen and be an embarrassment and like little babies all over the ground. Uh can I take it from dry, uh can I do it without oil? Is there a machine I can purchase that is not expensive that will uh do it perfect for me, frankly? Okay.
+
+[46:30] Uh millet's a bunch of different there's a bunch of different kinds of millet, right? And I don't know whether millet will puff on its own. What you should do, just as a test, is take some of the millet you have, that don't try to do it dry right away, puff it in oil like you would popcorn. You don't even need it, you can just do it in a pan with a lid on it and oil and see whether it pops. If it pops, then you're good.
+
+[46:49] If it doesn't pop, uh then you can uh cook it. Uh you know, cook it until it lets soak it, then cook it, and then dehydrate it slightly. If you dehydrate it too much, uh it won't pop. If you don't dehydrate enough, it'll pop, you just have to get a feel for it. Then you should be able to pop it either in hot air, microwave, or in uh or in oil like popcorn, uh, either either way.
+
+[47:11] But like uh one of those should work. And get back to me and let me know if you need more information. Uh do I got another uh 30 seconds or so? Yep. Uh okay.
+
+[47:19] Owen wrote in, uh, huge fan, without wasting any of your time. I'm curious before I buy what are the advantages of a larger rotary evaporator, say four liters versus a smaller one, say two liters. Also, what is an ideal centrifuge size to get uh for bartending applications? Is seven hundred and fifty milliliters okay? Um, and I'm gonna miss a question on Kaylee Bennett about jello shots.
+
+[47:38] I'll get that next time. Okay, Owen, here's here's uh what I'm gonna say. Uh larger flasks means you can put more in before it boils over. I would always get the four-liter flask. Your biggest problem with a rotovap is going to be the amount of product that you can put through it.
+
+[47:50] That's going to be the biggest limitation when you have it. Now, every time you have to break open the machine to clean out the flask, you're looking at another 10 to 15 minutes of trying to get another product. So if you can get a four-liter flask, you're gonna be able to put a lot more into it than a three-liter fast flask, and it's really going to increase your throughput. And in general, it's just the glass that you're changing out because the unit that can handle a three-liter flask can also handle a four-liter flask, right? Depending.
+
+[48:14] It's not always the case. But uh especially if it's not that much more, the four-liter flask is gonna be a lot better. Also, get the largest neck on the flask that you can get and the vapor duct the largest that you can get because it is a pain to clean that stuff out. On the center fuge, 750 milliliters is marginal if you're gonna do bartending applications for large groups of people. It's fine if all you're ever gonna do is lime juice and if you're only ever gonna make what like half a bottle of Houstino at a time.
+
+[48:39] But for larger applications, you're gonna want to get a three-liter bench top fuse with swinging swinging buckets that can do four the four thousand G's or so. Or if you can wait, I'm not saying that I'm working on something, but I might be working on something, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[49:14] You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Introduces. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking News coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined again uh after her, you know, airplane uh nonsense last week. We uh have uh Nastasia Lopez, the hammer back in the studio today. Hey Stas.
+
+[0:52] Hi. Hi. And special guest from uh you might know him uh from such things as uh running the website for uh popular science, ball adults. What do you use? At Pote?
+
+[1:07] Is that your Twitter? At Pote? No, that's your eat at PopSai Eats. At PopSiEats.com. I don't know because it's like I can recognize the picture, so I never have to like yes.
+
+[1:17] The cat. What? Isn't the cat nose? Yep. Is that your cat nose or someone else's cat nose?
+
+[1:22] My cat nose. Yes, I'm I start tried using someone else's cat nose, but they gave me a cease and desist, so I had to use my own cat nose. I know that's he's not lying. That's very Paul. Uh by the way, uh, for those of you that don't remember, Paul has been a uh guest on this show uh before, most recently for the hot girl tasting, right?
+
+[1:39] Weren't you here for the hot girl tasting? Yes. Yes. And uh Paul and I both agreed that uh Stas, you were here for hot girl, right? Wait what do you think?
+
+[1:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that was the one that Don Lee. Yeah. Yeah. The rotten shark.
+
+[1:51] Yeah, it wasn't that bad as the one that you loved in the park. The Sir Surstrawing. And we told the story about Sir Surfstrawming, for those of you that uh didn't hear that episode, is the it it is the most hardcore thing I've ever eaten, pretty much. Pretty much. It turns out that when you eat Hawcarl in the radio and then take the leftover Hawcarl home and wait for six months and then reopen the canister, it gets stronger.
+
+[2:14] Surstrawming strong? No. But it emptied a room. Well, for those of you that don't remember, uh we talked about it, I think we originally had the tasting and then also brought it up on a hot girl tasting. Uh Paul, uh you know, although he, you know, goes out to I think the Catskills, right?
+
+[2:31] Or something like this. You have a place in the Catskills or his family has a place somewhere outside of New York. Don't you have any family have a place? No, I wish. Well, anyway, he's a New York City, like born and bred kind of a guy.
+
+[2:41] Upper West? Upper West. Upper West. I thought you uh used to no, you have someone I've rented places in the past. Ah, renting.
+
+[2:49] Uh, anyways, brought the surfstraueming. Now, Surstrawing, here's how you make Surstrawing. You take yourself uh some herring, small ones. Yeah, and you don't put enough salt on them to stop bacteria from growing. You stop some bacteria.
+
+[3:03] Some but you allow the salt loving bacteria to the fun thing is you can it, right? Without pasteurizing it, right? So then uh it the can inflates with uh noxious gases and you and you open it and it's rotten. I mean it's quite literally rotten. Uh, you know, and you know, I don't want to hear any cultural like, oh, but it was smells rotten.
+
+[3:23] No, this stuff stink. This stuff stinks. Anyway, Paul took it on a taxi ride home. Remember that? He took the leftover.
+
+[3:32] We didn't even have like a vacuum sealer or even a quart container. He took an open can of Surstroming and its attendant, like, you know, uh, you know, retinue of of flies with him in a cab. And the window. And the cab windows didn't open. And the cab windows didn't open.
+
+[3:50] That's gotta be the best cab ride ever. Yeah. But it wasn't a cab to the cat skills. No, it was just about a mile. No.
+
+[3:56] Yeah, but the question is is like, did someone try to get in right afterwards? Did the cabbie say anything? The cavity did not say anything, but he kept looking at me. He probably thought it was just my personal smell. That's true.
+
+[4:10] That'd be pretty hardcore. If that was your personal smell. I mean. You're a corpse. Yes.
+
+[4:17] And I was canned. Yeah, canned corpse. You know, uh my wife once uh met a guy and was like, this guy smells like he's rotting from the inside out. He died two days later. Yeah.
+
+[4:28] Look at Santa's little hipster today. Did you see him? Uh well, you know, well, look, you can't start making like you Stas is not happy. Oh, by the way, uh, who do we got over there in the engineering booth? We got Jack today.
+
+[4:38] Uh hi Howdy. Hey there. I was I was gonna make a fake voice and say I was Santa's little hipster, but I didn't. Yeah, but you notice if Stas always has to have someone at Robertus that she that she like, you know, grooves on there. I mean, Indy Jesus was awesome, aka Dante.
+
+[4:54] Let me tell you something. Indy Jesus and Santa's little hipster, both really, really nice guys. I'm sure. Yeah, you know, Stas doesn't care about like someone as a person. That's not what she's about.
+
+[5:05] That's true. It's appearances. That's what's important. Appearances. So anyway, uh Paul was here because later on in the television program we're going to be uh uh the tasty, they're dead.
+
+[5:15] I don't want to hear any like entomologists like rushing, you know, like uh that I'm gonna destroy the ecosystem of New York City or anything like this. Uh some dead fancy uh uh ants from Mexico. I guess we'll do it, we'll do the ant tasting maybe after the commercial break, yeah? Sounds good. And we have some anti-gin.
+
+[5:29] Ant get it? Get it, anti-gin, like anti gin, but ant flavored gin. Oh no, I didn't get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what it is.
+
+[5:38] I was thinking like your aunt who drinks a lot of gin. Oh. Well, yeah, no, when uh so uh Jonas from the Nordic Food Labs came and did their thing in Greece, and we'll talk about Greece maybe after the commercial break. Nerd! We gonna do that now?
+
+[5:51] Yeah. Nerds! Alright, so uh it did it. I'm the only one that actually probably saw that. Can you do that again?
+
+[5:58] Nerds! Remember that show? Oh, yeah. Well, who was the name what was the name of the guy who did that in uh in Revenge of the Nerds? I remember not thinking that was funny because like that was my life.
+
+[6:10] So, whatever. Now look at you. Now look at me. Nerds. Anyway, so we're shutting down the uh 54 Eldritch uh lab, and we have uh and I've uh I've moved my lab to an undisclosed location in Connecticut.
+
+[6:25] Um but bigger and better? Much bigger. Better, meh, doesn't have air conditioning. It's a garage. Let's be honest about it.
+
+[6:34] It's the garage, it's a garage. I notice you're selling an air conditioner in your nerd sale. Yeah, well, Stas wants me to throw away everything and just buy new. I'm like, I don't know where she thinks I'm getting the money from. From the nerd wave.
+
+[6:45] From the nerd sale. From the yeah, no, so she wants me to sell a microwave, which I'm not selling the microwave. She wants me to sell a microwave for like five dollars to someone who's gonna come pick it up on the street so that I can buy a new one for $80. No, I never said five dollars. So anyway, we're why don't you describe the nerd sale stuff?
+
+[7:00] We're selling a bunch of really cool equipment uh at the nerd sale at fifty four Eldridge next Tuesday between 2 and 7 p.m. Cash and Carry, cash only. We're not moving anything. That's about it. As they say in the auction business, as is where is.
+
+[7:14] Yes. As is and we take real responsibility for what happens after it leaves. For instance, we have uh unless Peter like claims it beforehand, we have a uh the small Chinese puffing gun. It is inherently dangerous. It is being sold as an object d'art.
+
+[7:36] It is not an object of art. Uh object d'art. It's not a it is not a functional. I will never recommend that someone use it to puff grains. It is wholly and entirely unsafe.
+
+[7:49] It is merely an object of admiration to have on a little piece of cereal history to have on your on your mantle. It is not to be used to puff cereal. Let me be more clear. Do not use it to puff cereal. Do not seal it and heat it.
+
+[8:05] Right? Is that pretty clear? Right. It's very much like the ones that Chinese street puffers use. It is in fact that it is not to be used.
+
+[8:12] Yeah, it is not to be used. Right. Because I don't consider it safe, right? And I'm this is not one of those nod nod nudge nudge wink wink things. Like I built an entire encasement unit so that I could use it, and it turned out to be very difficult to operate it in this encasement unit, and I still felt nervous when I was using it.
+
+[8:30] So I'm gonna go ahead and say don't use it. And I the reason why I'm selling it, if I was comfortable using it, I would be using it all the time. Yep. Yes. But because I am not comfortable using it, I am telling you not to use it.
+
+[8:46] Okay, so then we have a 3D printer. Oh. This 3D printer, its name is Bruce. State of the art. It's name is Bru it was like six years, seven years ago.
+
+[8:56] At least. It's a Z Corp. Color-ish printer. Yeah. The Z Corp 450?
+
+[8:59] Uh yeah, but it's context brand. It's the one that was labeled as uh anyway. It's never been uh it never had uh fake stuff put in it, so you know it's never had, but Z Corp, I don't think supports it directly anymore. It can be made to work. Uh it's as is where it is.
+
+[9:23] So you can see all this stuff at Bookerandacks.com slash nerd sale. We have a pallet jack. We have a pallet jack. We have a s a small step funnel. We have street razors, we have a Bucher Buchner funnel.
+
+[9:34] Yep. Don't get the Buchner, but the SEP funnel is useful. Yeah. I don't like Buchners. But you can come by.
+
+[9:38] People think they're useful. Yeah. We have a small dishwasher, a life-size Santa. A life-size Santa, not just a life-size Santa, but a life-size Santa that was featured at a uh that was it was designed by uh Nastasia and Piper to pump out um hot uh Christmas uh mold wine and it spews Christmas mold wine out of its mouth into a bowl as though it's puking. Now, you need to supply your own circulator to make it work, but it's still got the piping and the place in Santa's butt to load up the uh the the mold uh wine, right?
+
+[10:16] So you supply a circulator. Is the piping still there? Or no, like the the flexible hose? I mean it's easy to it's easy to re-right, but you know, such famous people as Mario Batali have drunk, right? Wasn't it?
+
+[10:28] Was that at Del Posto or was that it was Lucky Peach? Lucky Pete. So, like some some some Momofuku people and their like fancy folks all drank uh holiday cheer out of Santa's mouth. From that was puking out of Santa's mouth. Does it come with the tape deck or is that gone?
+
+[10:44] With the little thing that's gone. So there used to be a voice recorder and you know, dirtbag friend of the show, uh Phil Bravo with the deep voice, had lots of uh pithy sayings that Santa would say about him puking up too much uh too much mold wine. Oh, too many cookies, and then he would be throwing up mold wine. So that's in the sale. Uh so if you go to the website, you can see photos and a list of things.
+
+[11:08] Straight razors are sharp. Did I mention this? I don't know. Should we sell those? They're really sharp.
+
+[11:12] I mean, they're straight razors. Yeah. What are you using for in the lab? Uh no, what happened is is that like when we opened the lab, I took all of my tools out of my apartment because it's unreasonable to have that many tools in my apartment, and I used to use straight razors. And then I picked it on my face.
+
+[11:30] One of these used to be used on my face. The other ones I picked up at a uh at a at a sale on the on the I think I don't think they were my grandpa's. Otherwise, I wouldn't sell them. I think that I've picked them up at a sale. We have a carbonation rig that you built?
+
+[11:42] No, no, no, no. We have an actual McCann carbon. Uh, which I think it might need one or two things uh tweaked on it, but it should it should work. We have uh uh yes, a roofing torch without the hose. We have uh a Manitawak ice machine with a cold plate installed in it, by the way, so you can use it directly for sell serve.
+
+[12:00] Now there's a hole drilled in the side of it for the cold plate, which I consider a feature. Anytime I buy an ice machine, I uh immediately drill a hole in the side of the ice machine so that the cold plate will fit inside. If you buy this ice machine, now I have one at home, which is why I didn't take it home. Uh and mine has a hole drilled in the side of it. Uh if you take this, I'll tell you this, I'll throw in the condensation pump.
+
+[12:23] Boom! That's a steal. Boom! Manitawok. Monitawak.
+
+[12:28] Under counter. Ice. Nice. Strong. It's very str it's strong.
+
+[12:31] It's good. And an aluminum cold plate. Anyway. Okay, enough on the nerd sale. Yeah.
+
+[12:37] Next next Tuesday. There's a broken printer. There's a broken printer, lots of toner. There's a lots of toner and a broken printer that Nastasia melted one day because she was cold because it was a billion degrees below zero. We had no heat, man.
+
+[12:49] The thing is, is that Dave designed the layout of the lab. I did not know this is crap. Nastasia pushed the printer up against the heater and then flipped it on full blast. Whose desk was it under? Whose desk?
+
+[13:01] Okay. Who designed the layout? The layout. I put it one place, you pushed it in. Okay.
+
+[13:08] And melted it. Whatever. Doesn't matter. It's melted. At the end of the day, it's melted.
+
+[13:12] It still works. It's an overj dark. It's an OJ. Yeah, it's an OJ of Nastasia's distaste for electronic equipment. Uh you know, and her ability to uh melt it.
+
+[13:21] Anyways, enough on the uh on the nerd sale. Wait, we didn't tell them how to get to it, did we? No, no. Booker and Dax.com forward slash nerd sale one word. I'm putting an early bid on the broken printer.
+
+[13:33] No bidding, all cash. Okay, fine. Foist cum foyer. Yeah, we're not holding items for anybody. Wow.
+
+[13:42] Sass. But how are people gonna here's the problem? If it's gonna run like this, how do people know if they've missed it? Like like they could show up and someone already took the 3D printer. Uh well, that's what a yard sale is like.
+
+[13:52] I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna go ahead and recommend that if you buy the 3D printer, you might want to get the pallet jack. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wise. Yeah.
+
+[13:58] Yeah. That's what we got it for, right? Yeah, but somehow we didn't end up using it, and then we just threw the pallet jack into that room. We also had something else really heavy. Oh, uh, did you uh what's the story on the vac machine?
+
+[14:08] Yes or no? Uh I think yes. I need to make sure. Alright, we have a vacuum uh machine. Don't worry, Paul.
+
+[14:14] The freeze dryer, we're still gonna fix. That's up in Connecticut. You and I are gonna fix that. Okay, good. All right.
+
+[14:18] No, the vacuum machine is uh from Del Posto, has sealed meats for the likes of Mark Latner and Mario Batale. Uh but it currently has uh an issue. The vacuum pump has, I think, a seal in it that needs to be kind of uh fixed. And uh, you know what, Stas and I just never did it. Anyway.
+
+[14:36] Enough on the nerd sale. Uh so we have uh some questions in. This one I'm gonna deal with last. Oh, by the way, you can call in your questions too. 7184972128.
+
+[14:45] That's 7184972128. Uh Kylie Bennett wrote in from um Blackberry Farm. They sent us some stuff before. Nice people. Nice people.
+
+[14:55] Uh I'm interested in making jello shots from scratch uh of the GNT uh Kampari, etc. variety, and I'd like to use bronze sheets gelatin. Is there a basic ratio you can provide uh or help otherwise uh thanks uh Kylie Bennett? Okay. Uh are you a uh jello shot aficionado, Paul?
+
+[15:15] I don't think I've ever had one. Come on, really? I've had jello. And I've had shots. But you've never had a jellyfied shot?
+
+[15:23] Not really. No. Alright, well, here's the thing. If you're using uh leaf leaf gelatin, right? Uh you're using bronze leaf gelatin.
+
+[15:33] The interesting thing about leaf gelatin is that the weights of all the different grades of gelatin are different. Because the assumption is that a leaf should gel the same amount regardless of kind of what grade you use, is but a leaf of bronze gelatin weighs a lot more than a leaf of like uh like gold or platinum or silver gelatin. Uh also you can't go straight based on that. I mean, they're designed to kind of uh set the same, but I've only ever really done uh gelled uh booze style things. Like I used to, like years ago, we made I made a champagne jelly that I would carbonate in the bottle and super high PSI and then cut open after it gelled and it would have carbonation on the inside.
+
+[16:11] Yeah, it's kind of fun. But you have to choose kind of what texture you want. There is in fact, and I forgot her name, but there's a there's a literally a cookbook devoted to uh jello shots, and I believe it has a name like Jell O Shots or something like this. It came out in 2011, uh, and they you know they have uh and she has a website, the person who did it, and they have a bunch of uh recipes there. Also, Kevin uh Lou from the Craft Cocktail book, yeah.
+
+[16:37] He did a post on Sirius Eats about uh jello shots. Unfortunately, he was using actual jello. Uh Knox, by the way, people knock Nox because it's not some fancy sheet gelatin. It's it actually an incredibly high like strength quality gelatin. It's like it's like right in between uh kind of gold and platinum.
+
+[16:55] It's like got a very, very high bloom strength, right? So it's actually 240? Uh something like that, yeah. 220s, 220s, I think. It's into 220s.
+
+[17:03] But it um, and here's something else I like a lot about uh Nox is that you can weigh it very easily so that it it's just super easy to weigh because it's a powder. Whereas what whenever you're using sheet gelatin, you have your best bet if you're gonna use sheet gelatin. That's why I guess why pros have not not don't have a lot of problem with it. You don't need to weigh it because it's already there in sheet format. If your recipe calls for some integral number of sheets.
+
+[17:29] But most of the time when I'm doing uh gelatin work, I don't know exactly how much liquid I'm gonna have uh because let's say I I'm trying to clarify strawberry juice back in the day, back when I used to use gelatin to clarify. And so I always hated having to snip pieces of the gelatin off to try to get it to uh work right. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's also a sense that sheet gelatin is more cool because pros use it, but in fact, sheet gelatin is made from powder.
+
+[17:54] Is that true? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I don't particularly I mean I I use I think sheet gelatin is sometimes easier to use because you can bloom it, pick it up, and throw it in. But powder gelatin is great for measuring.
+
+[18:06] I mean, that's what I use when I'm cooking, I use Nox brand powdered gelatin. I buy it in big cans. And uh there you have it. Um but back when I was at the uh French Culinary Institute, we stocked sheet gelatin, and I used sheet gelatin, and it was also good. Uh but of course we stocked the high end, the platinum, so it was very kind of close, like the the um the Nox and the platinum were pretty close weight for weight, so you could kind of substitute them back and forth because they had the same kind of a thing.
+
+[18:34] So, since you're using bronze, uh the the jello shot lady recommends uh for a jello shot that is firm enough to cut mold, stand on its own, and look crisp, i.e., a very kind of a hard jelly. She is a uh two packets of Nox, which is 14 grams of Nox, to um a uh 500 bout mL recipe, two cups, right? Total base, including the sugar, everything, right? Two cups. Now, uh what does that translate in terms of sheet gelatin?
+
+[19:10] Well, according to some people, like modernist pantry, uh they say about three sheets of gelatin equals a packet of Knox, but uh according to the Jell O Shot woman who tested it in jello shot recipes, she uh used about three and a half, and that looks more accurate based on calculations I did trying to do uh bloom strength and weight to uh to Knox kind of converting back and forth. I would say you're looking in the you're looking in the three and a half sheet per um cup range. Yeah? Sounds right. Yeah, three and a half sheets per cup in that area in that range.
+
+[19:46] Four jello shots. That's gonna make a firm jelly. All right. Yeah? Okay.
+
+[19:52] Uh and I forgot to set my phone to not turn off. Here we go. Okay, next question. Uh did I already answer last week, uh, Jack, the Ziploc question? I don't believe so.
+
+[20:01] Okay. Uh hello, lovely people. I did some insight. I think I mentioned it. Uh Michael had some problems with uh with uh Ziploc's uh breaking.
+
+[20:09] I think he just got a bad batch. Uh Ziploc freezer bags, you ever had a problem with those breaking? Do you use those to cook, Paul? I use them. Low temp, you ever had a problem?
+
+[20:16] Time and temperature. He's only cooking in the 50s of Celsius. And so it should last an infinite amount of time in the 50s of Celsius. You had a bad bag. You had a bad bag.
+
+[20:25] The off-brand or Ziploc storage bags will fail at higher low temperatures. Yeah. Storage bags I've had fail. Um other brands I've had fail. Cisco, food safe, Cisco brand like bags, fake Ziplocks, I've had a uh I had a like a hundred percent failure rate on those.
+
+[20:47] They fail. Uh but an actual ziploc, an actual branded Ziploc freezer bag with the not with the fake slider on top, but a standard Ziploc freezer bag, uh, very, very rarely fail. Very rarely. So uh you you got a bad batch and you should go yell at somebody. But the second question was do you need a puffing gun to make puffed rice cakes?
+
+[21:13] The quite light, airy, bland, tasteless uh style of food item. Well, uh you give such a uh such an enticing description of it, I can see why you want to make them, right? Um the when you're making those puffed rice cakes, they uh in uh they have a special machine for those things that uh decompresses inside of a mold, and that's how they do it. However, you can look up on the internet, there are papers on how to do it in a microwave. What you do is is you take uh cooked and then dehydrated starch.
+
+[21:45] Uh you then uh lightly mist it after it's you have to cook it, overcook it, dehydrate it, right? Not totally, but to I forget what the moisture content is, but you just end up knowing after a while. Actually, cooking issues, you can still look up the post. Uh that one's not selling Cialis, I think at this moment. So you can still look up.
+
+[22:04] Oh, really nice. Oh, wow. It's no longer WordPress. Where am I going to buy my Cialis? I thought you stocked up.
+
+[22:10] Oh, yeah, yeah. So uh so anyway, so you can go look at the puffing uh section and it'll tell you, it'll show you pictures and you can get because uh you know even though I wrote it many years ago, it turns out puffing hasn't changed much. But uh, if you take uh salted water and lightly, lightly mist the grains uh of uh dehydrated grain and then uh toss them together and then put them inside of a mold and puff them in a microwave, you can get them to bond. This is a a known uh unknown thing, but uh your results may vary. Uh Yuriel wrote in on glycemic uh load.
+
+[22:44] He goes, dear uh Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and anyone else uh that I may have forgotten unintentionally, like for instance you, Paul. Me. Yeah. You forgot Paul. God.
+
+[22:52] Yeah. Uh I have a question about glycemic indexes, retrograde starches, and resistant starches. My wife is on a low glycemic index diet, and I am in charge of cooking. A low GI diet really isn't that bad, with one notable exception. Potatoes.
+
+[22:59] Potatoes. Potatoes have a glycemic index of 80 to 100, depending on the method method of preparation and a high glycemic load. This is very unfortunate because potatoes are delicious. Correct. Potatoes are delicious.
+
+[23:17] I find them to be delicious. Uh I've read all sorts of conflicting information on the interweb saying that certain techniques can lower the GI of potatoes by converting the starch to resistant starches when you cool them and reheat them after cooking. Alternatively, some sites say that the glycemic load is lowered when serving potatoes with saturated fats, which makes no sense to me at all. I haven't been able to find an explanation of what's going on from a reputable source. Most sites that deal with nutrition read more like religion than science.
+
+[23:41] I'm hoping that Dave might be able to explain what the deal is and whether I can make delicious stuff uh with potatoes without compromising my wife's diet. Thanks. Uriel uh PS does nostasia like potatoes. Uh-huh. Oh, nice.
+
+[23:52] And uh when are you going to announce the new project slash Kickstarter? You tease something on the air and then radio silence. I don't know when, Stas. In August, right? Yeah.
+
+[24:00] It's not a Kickstarter. It's not. Stas is like, it will not be a Kickstarter, but we will announce the new thing. We have something we're going to announce before then, the Cube. We've even talked about the Cube, but that's not the next major project.
+
+[24:09] I don't consider that next major project. And uh he's waiting for the enemy of quality t-shirt. I know. We're working on it. We're working on it.
+
+[24:16] Okay. So here's the uh short answer. One, if uh uh you know the old uh Joe Robouchon slash uh Wiley Dufrein for uh Jeffrey Steingarden, Jeffrey Steingarden brought it back, tech potato cooking technique. The super buttery one? Yeah.
+
+[24:34] Yes. Yeah. So that one, uh I look, I would you're I don't know. This would have to be measured by a scientist, right? Uh and they have techniques for measuring it.
+
+[24:44] Uh by what they do is they take enzymes and they break it down and see how much starch remains after they break it down. I think I think uh the one that they use is called termomil from Novozymes is the standard for like testing resistant starch, although I could be wrong. Uh so those potatoes are cooked to set the starch granules first, right? Which is going to make more of the stuff uh resistant to uh um uh digestion uh at a low temperature. They're set, I think somewhere in the mid 60s of Celsius or something like this.
+
+[25:14] You remember? I do not remember, but that sounds right. Yeah. They are then uh cooked, right, and then uh mashed. Now then the starch granules form little beads.
+
+[25:23] It's very kind of bead formatted. And then Robochon then takes that, and Wiley used to do this as well, and fortifies it with obscene amounts of butter. Obscene, like 50% butter, and then it's chilled in a fridge to form to coagulate back to a solid mass. When that happens, you should get a lot of retrogradation over time. The advantage is here is that then you just scoop it up and reheat it, and the stuff that has retrograded won't um won't, you know, re won't unretrograde in that.
+
+[25:53] And so you should have more resistant starch, but I don't know what the actual uh answer is. The fat thing, um, you know, there was that article on uh rice. Remember that, Paul? Didn't you send that to me? I even tried it.
+
+[26:04] Did you try it? Yeah. How did you test whether or not it made more resistant starch? I didn't. I tested whether it tasted okay when it was reheated.
+
+[26:11] I'm sure, did it? It did. Yeah. Well, so the the deal with uh oil is that remember uh so in it when you're looking at resistance is all like glycemic index is all about how quickly your body or how effectively your body can break down the starch in there, right? So amylopectin is easier to break down than amylose, so a starch that has more amylopectin versus amylose.
+
+[26:33] And I don't know how it works in potatoes, do you? I don't. I know, but like I'm sure it's fluffy versus uh waxy, it's gonna be different, right? So you're gonna want to select a potato that has less I mean we can look this up. I don't know, I never forgot to look that up.
+
+[26:45] But anyway, so a mylopectin is gonna in a higher millipectin' is gonna increase your uh glycemic index. Also, how literally available it is to your digestive enzymes is gonna affect the index. Also, things like fats in your body are gonna like slow down uh the rate at which you break things down and so can uh decrease the uh index. So all these things affect uh what's going on. Retrogradation uh affects what's going on.
+
+[27:08] Uh but what's going on with the rice when they were cooking it with the oil is um uh amylose forms a uh a helix when it's uh right, a double helix when it's na native. Uh and oil can get into that and form a complex, which then they say is more resistant. Now I don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what they wrote in the paper. But that's how uh tapioca uh enzorbit brand tapioca maltodextrin works, is that it's this short chain fluffy um uh you know um looking for maltodextrin, which is starch breakdown product that complexes with oil. So we know it happens, right?
+
+[27:43] Right. Yeah, so I don't know. The answer, short answer, I don't know. Needs more testing. But I don't have the facilities to test it, but it's possible.
+
+[27:51] Like the stuff in the nutrition, this I mean like like the facts are the facts. Whether or not something is gonna be more or less healthy is a different story. That I can't comment on. Right? Right.
+
+[28:00] Yeah. It seems likely that fat promotes retrogradation. Or pr prevents prevents the enzymatic breakdown of the starches if it's complex. I th but the thing with the rice is they're complexing it before it's cooked. Right?
+
+[28:16] While it's cooked. While it's cooked, but in other words, before it's before it's denativized, I guess. I don't know. Another interesting question is I wonder what happens with the oil in like uh in in like an arboreo when you're or not an arboreous, rather, uh in a risotto when you do the pre-fry. Hmm.
+
+[28:32] Does that do anything? Who knows? Not me. Uh, should we take our break? Sure.
+
+[28:37] And we'll come back with more cooking issues. Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have.
+
+[29:16] And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms. And a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them.
+
+[29:32] And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them.
+
+[30:08] Visit us at Heritage Foods USA.com for more information. And we are back for the uh ant tasting slash grease talking slash whatever. So we have a caller. We went to break, but the caller I hope is still waiting patiently. All right, caller, you were on the air.
+
+[30:27] Hello. Hi. Hi, this is Claire. Hey Claire, how are you? Hey Claire.
+
+[30:33] Good, how are you? All right. Dave, I wanted to tell you that at 2 o'clock PM today, uh, office wide saltine challenge is going down. So for those of you that don't know, the saltine challenge is um where you uh see whether you can consume without any uh form of liquid, six uh salted top, not don't get the unsalted top, because that's for wussies, uh saltine crackers in sixty seconds or less. And by consume, I mean you have to get it down your throat.
+
+[31:03] Yes. Yeah, and I know so we did it last night, no one was able to do it. It's do you know anyone that can do it? Uh I only tried it once, and I could get within about 10 seconds of it, but I've I saw it done on the internet, and uh it the you know, the successful people use a technique uh called uh chunking, uh, where you do multiple uh multiple crackers at once, and uh the most favorable number seems to be three. I also noticed uh some of the successful people did some head tilting.
+
+[31:36] The it's the idea is they can store saliva in one section and masticate the dry thing. The trick is is that uh your throat has a tough time getting something down if the bolus, which is a technical term that you're using for the uh for the you know food wad, uh is completely dry. So you need to somehow segregate a little bit of moisture in your mouth so that you can coat the outside of the inside can be dry as the as the Sahara Desert, but you have to coat the bolus somehow with enough moisture that you can jam it down your throat. So the best technique is to do three at a time. Uh and uh some people do four, but then why?
+
+[32:09] You have still have to do two more. Right. So three and three, I think is the way, but uh I saw someone consume uh I think twelve in a minute. Wow. He did four, four, and four.
+
+[32:19] Was he a big man? No, this is the myth, S. Why are you falling into the myth of eating competitions? More stories, you know. No, no, it's all about saliva production.
+
+[32:28] It's all about saliva. And I would do a little bit of that, you're you know, you can't see me, but I'm going with my mouth. I would do a little pre little pre-formation there of uh the saliva, you know. The main uh issue with uh testing it actually is it is that the dry, salty crap really doesn't do your tongue too much good. Like it kind of hurts a little bit.
+
+[32:48] Yeah, you know. A little bit. We experienced that last night. Yeah, Paul, are you experienced in this challenge? I've never done it.
+
+[32:54] Uh-huh. Is this one of these fads that's killing teens? Uh not yet. Uh it became popular a number of years ago, and then uh I like so Dax, my you know, younger son, uh, read about it somewhere and he was like, saltine challenge, dad, saltine challenge. I think there's two.
+
+[33:09] And so then they then they made me do it. Uh Booker attempted it and failed. Uh Nastasia attempted it and failed. I attempted it and failed. Oh no, Dax attempted it and failed too.
+
+[33:20] But I'm close. I can I mean I could do it with practice. I right now I feel like saliva's about to drip out of my mouth because my body is gearing up for the challenge. You can see it, right? I'm frothing.
+
+[33:29] I'm frothing like a like a like some sort of a uh what's that, a rabid dog. I'm sure they can hear it. Yeah, yeah. They can hear the frothiness in my voice. But yes.
+
+[33:38] So uh that is my I would go on the YouTube and look up some people do who do it uh successfully and then mimic them. That's what I would do. That's a great suggestion. Listen, I have a quick question. Yeah, what's that?
+
+[33:50] So when you have you know, Stas and I always have these dinner parties, and people always bring cheese. Usually if they bring, you know, everybody brings brie and then we're stuck with 12 wheels of brie. But if they don't, they bring harder cheese. You know, we we wrap it up in plastic at the end. How do you know when it's really really gone bad?
+
+[34:09] Just aside from smelling it. Well, hard cheese is they don't go bad really. They just dry out and and their texture becomes unpleasant. The um like they'll crack, they'll lose moisture. Occasionally, if the uh humidity of your uh fridge is not good, or if uh somebody, say Nastasia, gets some water on the outside of the cheese when she's wrapping it and then wraps it, you can get a mold uh formation there, which you know might be a mold of questionable.
+
+[34:36] I'm really salivating like because of my thinking of saltines. Um you you know, you might have some questionable mold there, but that can probably be uh trimmed away. So uh a hard cheese, you're pretty much good until until it gets moldy, uh bad moldy. Uh uh Bree's gonna be okay until it smells like ammonia, and then it's gonna be um unpleasant. Uh but the fun thing about the ammonia smell is that is that you have to uh wait a minute w for it to warm up uh for it uh to Yeah.
+
+[35:08] What do you what are your thoughts on the big wheel of brie, Paul? Go on with this waiting a minute. What? Yeah technique. Uh yeah, this well yeah.
+
+[35:18] No, you would wait a minute to see whether the ammonia because when it's cold, the ammonia will be suppressed. And so you have to wait a minute for the ammonia smell to um to kind of become present. Uh so you could think something's okay because a small amount of ammonia is not is is like, you know, almost normal in some cheeses that have been aged a lot. Yeah. And then uh but it can become overpowering as it warms.
+
+[35:40] This is a mistake. So like if you go to a cheese shop and a lot of cheese shops, because it's better for the cheese, store it kind of at wine cellar temperatures. You should taste cheeses at the temperature you're gonna serve them. A lot of people look when I was growing up, you're s like you know, I my belief was that cheeses should be served at room temp, but then like there's a big kind of backlash against that and that oh cheeses should be served, you know, at different temperatures of some more of closer to a cellar temperature. Uh but uh, you know, I grew up liking my cheese as kind of stinky and on the warm side.
+
+[36:07] Um but like a uh an ammoniacal cheese, which is an awesome word, ammoniacal uh it you know, the warmer it gets, the more kind of stinky it will get. I guess you could heat it enough to drive the ammonia off. I don't know. Like in the oven? No, you have to make a soup out of it or something like this.
+
+[36:25] I mean brie if you heat it, it's you know it's a day. You know, it's it's over. But uh, you know, you could do one of those uh you know, y you guys weren't alive in the 70s. Uh but you know, back in the 70s you bought a big wheel of tasteless brie, wrapped it in puff pastry, cooked the hell out of it, and then poured honey over the top of it and served it with the bottom. Well that's that's a cellared family classic recipe from the South, Dave.
+
+[36:49] I know all about that. Some slithered almonds on top. Yeah, so from the south, do you also eat pimento cheese sandwiches? Oh, you bet. Yeah, nice.
+
+[36:58] Love it. Cheese straws. Yeah. But let me let me let me just put it this way. Uh I don't know if you're aware of this fact, but uh brie being a French thing ain't got nothing to do with the South.
+
+[37:08] You know, brie cook brie. But the 70s, you know, and in the in the fact that the South probably has preserved good of good old fashioned American 70s fare better than anyone else. Like that's you know, yeah. But I actually I actually have to say I enjoy that crap. That really?
+
+[37:24] Oh, me too. Yeah. Like the fact that the oil separates from the brie and the puff pastry is greasy, and it's on that cracker. Mm-hmm. You know what we used to do.
+
+[37:33] On a car's cracker. Yeah, so sometime in like the very early 80s, roasted garlic became kind of big, and then it was roasted garlic with that brie was like the thing to have. So you'd have the roasted garlic on the cracker with the baked brie, and that was that was the shizzy right there. That was what would the with the honey or no honey? Uh the honey became optional at that point.
+
+[37:54] I think honey became optional at that point. All right. Send us photos from your challenge, Claire. Yeah, I will. I will.
+
+[38:01] I'm I I've got my eye on one person who I think can do it. Uh look, I'm sure that some cooking issues listeners out there have more than tackled this problem. Because this is the kind of thing that our listeners probably are uh excel at. All right. All right, well, thank you for the the help.
+
+[38:18] All righty, good luck with it. So we have uh Paul's here to taste some fancy ants and to taste some anti gin. What do you want to do first? You want to taste the real ants or the anti gin? Anti gin was they they take wood ants from uh Denmark and uh they uh crush them up and distill them.
+
+[38:36] Yes. That's how they make the anti gin. Just so you know. And they add botanicals. Plus botanicals.
+
+[38:41] Ants and botanicals, anti gin. Okay. Let's have real ants first. Okay, so eat the real ants. Here you go.
+
+[38:47] I got two kinds of real ants. Do you be able to find the labels on them? No, the labels have rubbed off. One nice. There are big ones and small ones.
+
+[38:54] Alright, the big ones, I believe are the uh the giant Oaxacan flying ants. And I believe the smaller ones might live in the agave somehow. Those I believe are the are the uh giant ants. I hope those are the giant ones. Yeah, those are the giant ones.
+
+[39:11] All right, go to it, Paul. No, this is all Paul. This is Paul. No, we all have to have the ants, Dave. What the hell, man?
+
+[39:18] Alright, Paul first. It's got pretty much no flavor. Is it because they're old or you think they just have no flavor? Maybe old. There's no acidity to it?
+
+[39:34] Not that one, maybe I'll try a second one. Try a second one. Now, this is the package that was already opened, right? Right. These were purchased at the uh Mercado San Juan in Mexico City.
+
+[39:48] Hmm. That's got a little more. Acidity? Not acidity. A little like oxidized sherry raisin flavor.
+
+[39:57] It's nice. Be really good with some brie on a cracker. Seriously. Try it, dude. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[40:05] These ants, by the way, are enormous. Yeah. Well, someone should take a picture of these things and tweak these suckers out. Do it, Paul. Yeah, Paul.
+
+[40:12] People. So whatever. Stas, you gotta eat one too. Go do it. Do it.
+
+[40:21] Oh, they're fatty. Mine wasn't fatty. This was fatty. Oxidized fat. Um.
+
+[40:32] Yeah, it tastes like cooked brie with stuff. Oh. I think there's a little I think it maybe I think maybe they're a little old and I think the fat's getting oxidized. Could be. When did you get these?
+
+[40:52] And were they freshly cooked? When I was in Mexico. That was three weeks ago? Yeah. Ish.
+
+[40:58] Yeah. Alright, next. Maybe longer. Longer. Next are the small ants, which are the size of small raisins.
+
+[41:11] And they're just the thorax of the ant, right? They aren't the tripartite. The problem is the outside, the uh the chitinous exoskeleton is sticking to my teeth. And it also tastes bad. I like to take you just don't like the taste because of as to what you associate.
+
+[41:28] I didn't get any battery in mine. I think there's poor quality control. I think the ants each taste different. That is entirely possible. These are very well sealed, so they're hopefully fresher.
+
+[41:41] Yes. Why don't we do the gin? Well, we have to wait. Yeah. So is that a is that a have again or not a have again, Paul?
+
+[42:01] I would have one or two more of those. Small ants. Oh no, these have the entire thing with the legs and everything. Eat one of these. This is this is the entire ant.
+
+[42:23] Hmm. That's nice. Yeah, that's what I hear ass tastes like. This is what you would expect if you're lying in a meadow and an ant crawls into your mouth. Well, I grew up in Manhattan, so never.
+
+[42:41] Central Park. What what that's a rat. Alright, Stas, eat one. Stas! I don't want to.
+
+[42:48] These are better ants. Jack, come in here and eat one. Yeah. That's nicer. Yeah.
+
+[42:56] Alright. Jack, you gonna eat one of these? He's on the phone. I don't know that I would go out of my way to get these. There's Jack.
+
+[43:04] Alright, Jack. Eat one of those suckers. Yeah. What do you think? It's fine.
+
+[43:15] I would eat one of the other ones. I'm waiting for like my framework on it. Eat one of the fatty ones while you're waiting. I need some water. Yeah, I need some water, that's for sure.
+
+[43:31] Yeah. Okay. Let's wash this down with some anti gin. Yeah, you want to Paul, you want to get one of those plastic cups there? Yeah.
+
+[43:37] Uh it gets worse. Yeah. No, it gets worse. Yeah. No, no.
+
+[43:42] No, no, it gets worse. But I hear look, the ones that um the ones that uh Alex Atla has, I think are like totally fresh. Like still fatty. Because isn't formic acid gonna uh volatilize because acetic acid? It is.
+
+[44:02] I don't know how long it would stick around. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I've learned much by eating these. Have you learned a lot by eating these? If I ever prepare ant snacks, I will season them with chili and lime.
+
+[44:16] Yeah. That would be better. Yeah, but it's supposed to have its own citrusiness from the itself, so like that's just cheating. I could prepare anything. I would just rather have Fritos.
+
+[44:25] You know what I mean? Fritos are delicious in and of themselves. Add chili and lime, and you've added more delicious stuff to a frito. You know what I mean? Yeah, but Fritos aren't as freely available in meadows.
+
+[44:38] Fair. Uh uh. I'm sorry. I'm gonna wash this ant particles down. Now Paul's tasting the antigen.
+
+[44:49] I think you need to empty all the vials in. Okay, while while he's getting ready to taste that. Oh, you know what? Before you do anything, water on it brings uh brings the flavor out. I see what you mean.
+
+[45:03] Yeah. Maybe an ant soda. Yeah, now I'm getting more of the uh now I'm getting more of the citrus, more of the ant tonic and anti gin. Yeah, there you go. All right.
+
+[45:13] Uh well, okay, you ready to taste this? Taste this. Well, for the record, Stas did not try the other ant. Smells like which one? The fatty one?
+
+[45:25] No, the little guy. Oh, the fatty one was better. Oh, that's good. Neither was good. The antigen is delicious.
+
+[45:34] Yeah. Complex. Good ant acidity. Yeah. You so you you can really taste the ant?
+
+[45:42] I wouldn't name it as ant, but it is a unique flavor. The formic acid, I assume, esterizes rapidly and creates all these interesting complexities. Yeah, well, I don't know how much of the native ant flavor is uh distillable. Yeah. I'm tasting it.
+
+[46:06] Yeah, I mean it's good. It's made by a uh uh I forget the name of the distiller in Cambridge in conjunction with the Nordic food lab. I think it's called Cambridge Distillers or something like that. Yeah, not our Cambridge, their Cambridge. England.
+
+[46:18] England, the English Cambridge. Yeah, the one that's closer to Denmark. The one that came first. Although, you know, we don't like to pin it. What do you think of that stuff?
+
+[46:26] It's good. Yeah. Alright. So see styles pro anti-gin. Oh, oh man.
+
+[46:32] We don't have that much time, right? Alright. Well listen. Uh Jim uh Guaniri uh called in. And by the way, it's about uh centrifuges and stuff.
+
+[46:40] I'll I'll I'll get to that. Uh oh no, this one I have to do. We have to do this. Paul, you're gonna try one on this because uh it might run out of time. Um there is a question on centrifuges in from Tom, which I'll get to next week.
+
+[46:52] Um more San Francisco stuff that we'll get to next week. Uh and uh a question on gimlets, basil gimlets from Jason that we'll have to get to next week. But uh Jim's been waiting, and by the way, pronounced uh uh uh guarniri, which is why presumably he also enjoys Guar the Band. Are you a fan of Guar the Band? I heard of course.
+
+[47:12] I heard one of the guys died. Yeah. Yeah, what's your favorite guar song? Preschool Prostitute? Hard to pick a favorite.
+
+[47:20] Hard to pick it up a few. But yeah, Odorous Yurungus died. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sad.
+
+[47:24] Sad day for sad day for theatrical hydrocolloid bands. Yeah. Yeah. I uh I told you I heard people, I've never saw them in concert, but people would come back with uh blood under their contact lenses. Fake blood under their contact lenses.
+
+[47:39] Impressive. Yeah, very good, very good uh spray. Anyway. Uh dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, uh, and Paul. Uh I've been I still have ant in my mouth.
+
+[47:48] Yeah. The fatty, do you get the fattiness now? Like lick the roof of your mouth. Do you get that like slickness? Yes.
+
+[47:55] It's like Crisco slick. Mm-hmm. I have been asked by my sister to come up with a couple of interesting cocktails for her wedding. One of them uh will just be something interesting slash special that one wouldn't normally see at a wedding. The other is specifically for the champagne toast.
+
+[48:10] The groom cannot stand carbonation. Whoa. And he says, sorry, Nastasi, but really that's an insult to all of us. Can't stand carbonation. Find a new groom.
+
+[48:20] Right? The groom could pre-dose with acetazolamide. Drug prescribed for altitude sickness that inhibits the sensation of carbonation. This is an excellent idea. We tested it, you and I.
+
+[48:34] Does it mess uh I forget? It doesn't mess up your sense of flavor for other things, does it? No, not at all. Yeah, this it's perfect. Holy crap.
+
+[48:41] We have just solved your problem. Give the groom this altitude sickness pill about a half an hour before the champagne toast, and they could just drink them some champagne, and everyone else will be happy and he'll be like, why is this wine a little flat? I mean, uh flat, not carbonation-wise, but why is it like lacking in some of the flavor that I've associated with uh wine and why is it so acidic. Right. But but done and done.
+
+[49:03] Tell your doctor you're going mountain climbing and you need a prescription for acetazolamide. All right, but forget the trade name. But as uh uh assuming Paul, love you, man. That's what we need Paul here like all the time for this kind of stuff. But let's actually finish in case this is not something that they're willing to do.
+
+[49:14] Yeah. Uh so the groom cannot stay in carbonation, so they would like a non-bubbly substitute for the toast. I was thinking of pre-batching both and possibly bottling one or both. I have six ounce champagne bottles and a capper. I have two questions.
+
+[49:32] First, um, I have um liquid intelligence know about your uh liquid nitrogen method for clearing the headspace. Can this be done with a chip of dry ice instead? Probably you might get some residual carbonation. You still have to wait for it to stop volatilizing you pressurize the bottle, which might cause problems. Uh I guess it might have the potential to carbonate, but if the bottle's pretty full, it seems like the volume of CO2 in the headspace wouldn't be enough for perceptible carbonation.
+
+[49:54] Uh it's possible, but be very careful not to blow the bottle up. Um, second, any suggestions uh for the two cocktails. The only guidance I've been given is that neither can be carbonated. Uh they love bourbon and whiskey in general, and they really like herbal infused liquor, chartreuse, absinthe, benedictine, and they prefer the toast drink to be lighter since it will be had by many who might not typically drink cocktail. Manhattan's duh.
+
+[50:14] Just make Manhattan's. Right, Paul? That's not light. We gotta go. All right, we'll come back with more light cocktails.
+
+[50:23] Uh more suggestions, and we'll talk about Greece next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[50:53] Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. I'm Linda Pilaggio, host of A Taste of the Pass. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwith Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. As usual on Tuesdays from meh meh around twelve, somewhere in the 12 area. 12, 12, 10, 12, 12. Hey, look, it's it is my fault because you know, obviously, people show up to work on time.
+
+[0:58] However, in my defense, the J and the M are skipping all of the stops that are related. I mean, that Jack, no offense. That's one of the problems about being about being out here in theoretically well served Brooklyn. See, Manhattan is not theoretically well served by public transportation. We are actually well served by public transportation, at least south of 96.
+
+[1:17] Rice does? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's why she lives. Over in Hell's Kitchen.
+
+[1:21] That's one place on earth Nastasia does not hate is uh Hell's Kitchen. That's true. She claims, I don't know if you know this, Jack. She claims that uh the actual sun is nicer, like a mile and a half west on the west side of the island. Well, yeah, better coordinates, sure.
+
+[1:39] What? It's a mile and a half away. It depends on how many tall buildings there are between you and everything else. Crazy people. I was driving to Philly and all these people are in the middle of the street blocking traffic with their phones.
+
+[1:56] It's completely overcast. Are you about to sing the Age of Aquarius? It sounded like you were sitting at the intro to the Age of Aquarius. Right? How does it go?
+
+[2:05] It's like something like that. It's in like a seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars. Something will happen across the planet. But but I think Love, I think I think Love Rules the Earth, which goes to show it never happened. Never got to happen.
+
+[2:19] I think that show made me uncomfortable. Why are they running around naked? What's that all about? It's not shocking. It's just why I don't want to, you know.
+
+[2:25] Not necessary. Hey, I do want to jump right to our first uh our call here. We're with Lou from Beacon. Now, this is not a question, this is just a call. That's right.
+
+[2:33] It's just uh it's a guest. It's a guest. Yeah. Lou from well, but it's pronounced Beacon, isn't it? Beacon, yes.
+
+[2:41] And uh hi, Dave, it's it's actually Lou and Dean. Uh we're we're both here. No, and you are a you are a brother duo, correct? That's correct. So how's that working for you, working with your brothers?
+
+[2:51] Uh it's gotten better and better over the years. I'm trying to imagine my two kids working together, and it only if their job was to fight each other would be the only way they stopped growing and he didn't, so uh we stopped fighting a long time ago. Oh, nice, nice. All right, so listen, um, rather than me giving the uh so they they've developed this new uh brewing device, but rather than me give the spiel for your product, why don't you just roughly tell people who aren't familiar with it kind of what you got going? Sure.
+
+[3:18] So uh so beacon, you know, we're um we've been focused on unlocking uh, you know, a higher quality, the highest quality made-to-order craft beverage. Um we come from the coffee industry, and the technology was originally born from coffee when Dean invented it. But um the process uses vacuums to pull the air out of the granite material. And when the vacuums are released, the liquid goes back in size called rain. It stands for reverse atmosphere confusion.
+
+[3:46] And what we've realized is that it is an open technology that really optimizes the flavor extraction from coffees, teas, infused waters, cocktails. It allows beverages to be created that have never been able to be created before. And so the patents and the technology is um very broad reaching. We're focusing first in the restaurant arena in the interest of working with uh chefs and mixologists and baristas to create great content for the platform, but ultimately the idea is that this is an internet technology that um that will bring into the home so one day all those recipes that exist out there um can be replicated by any consumer. And uh uh it's not spelled like beacon that the why do you spell it for people so that they can uh find it on the internets.
+
+[4:33] Sure, it's uh B K O N the website is Beacon Brew, B-K-O-N-B-R-E-W. And um we just spelled it a little bit differently, but um it's it's pronounced as in beacon, like a beacon of light signal a um uh uh um a pathfinding um illuminator. Right. Now so the the now the fundament one of the the fundamental things similar to like old school vacuum infusion where you're doing like pulse cycles of of vacuum to first infuse liquid in and then draw it back back out again. Presumably the patent has to do with the combination of that with the heating element and the processor control of it.
+
+[5:12] I'll let Dean explain, but there we have a whole range of uh intellectual property, but um it's the the process is is is quite simple, although it's a little bit more complicated than just pulling a vacuum. Um specifically, it has to do with just the phases of the the vacuum, uh the depth of the vacuum, the time that it's applied and or controlled. Um with the uh intervals in between where it goes back to normal atmosphere. So that's really the key of the technology is the uh by controlling the vacuum and the depth of each specific vacuum phase, it allows it to penetrate uh a determined distance essentially into the cellular structure of the material. Um so let's say if we have three three that are in sequence with a with a pause in between, it allows us to draw the gases out, the the solvent goes in.
+
+[6:10] Um then we go uh with the next one, go a little bit further and keep going through the cellular structure. Drawing the flavors actually out through the uh the pores of the material, the material itself is acting as as a filter, like uh water purify is um bedrock. Right. Right. So and presumably you you have different uh programs written for different kind of products, and there's like a lot where you have like a like a recipe system in it that there's more of a user just types in what they want and it and then you pump it out the other side.
+
+[6:44] Yes, yes, it's uh it the the recipes are predetermined, pre designed by the content partners. Um there's specific flights that we've designed that allow a uh a very turnkey application as far as finding the best recipes for a specific type of beverage. So we've done a lot of research to make it easier for the people to use the tool the right way and to find the optimal setting. Right. Now are you able to pull the vacuum levels that you need with uh like a simple like a diaphragm or a wobble pump or do you have to have like a larger pump in there or what do you what are you guys using?
+
+[7:23] Uh we're using a uh a small uh diaphragm pump that's uh was designed for uh medical equipment. Right. Now so presumably with a diaphragm pump you're not taking to like as uh deep a vacuum level as you would with let's say like a rotary vane pump in a c in a commercial uh in in a in a packer but also you can't suck those kind of volumes anyway be I mean those kind of uh vacuum levels anyway because a lot of what you're doing is at temperature so you're gonna get boil off a a lot before that. So is a lot of the art of it figuring out how to get enough of a vacuum delta and still have the high temperature without a lot of boil off or what? Absolutely.
+
+[8:00] Absolutely all that is based in the code of the recipe. There is a certainly a relationship of the water temperature to the depth of the vacuum um also uh taking the the material and the solvent into account as well. Right. So um uh we we certainly don't want to go into a full on boil uh with by creating a a very deep vacuum as that will also reduce the temperature of the liquid if we're working with something hot. But we're thinking working with uh ambient beverage uh we can go uh quite a bit further but there certainly is that uh that relationship uh what's optimal.
+
+[8:38] Well one of the one of the things Dave that makes this really unique and very much a um an internet of things play um from a uh from a model standpoint is all of the uh all the code that goes into controlling the different parameters, um the water temperatures, the whole times different vacuum pressures, different vacuum durations and uh it differs um between just two different coffees or the same coffee two different roast profiles and um but the beautiful thing about it is because it's it because it's it's because it's code um and based on uh you know our first product line it was built is built uh exclusively in commercial space by um by Franke and because of the uh the level of engineering that there has gone into this um what's amazing about it is that when that beverage is recre it can be recreated. So going back to your question earlier about how there's other methods that have been around for a long time of using manual pumps and manual methods or or or uh partial manual methods to pull vacuums on uh materials and liquid this is all about understanding how we control those parameters, how we put them into code and um ultimately how we allow them to be replicated um based on all the factors that allow you to achieve a precise um beverage. The same way that when you open up a bottle of stone beer you don't need to be in San Diego to drink it to know exactly how good and how perfect it should taste. That's our goal what we're trying to do on the mate to order side. Right and presumably also like if some knucklehead uh hits a uh a recipe that's uh water based and they have an alcohol in there like you have to know when you're like you it has to know from the pumping curve that stop I'm boiling before I thought I was going to things like this, right?
+
+[10:24] I mean presumably that has to get built into the kind of at least somewhere, right? Absolutely. I mean it's it's keep in mind, it's a semi-automatic piece of equipment. So there's obviously plenty of room for user error. Um there's obvious there's certainly going to be visual cues.
+
+[10:38] Uh the more you you get used to um seeing and and identifying very quickly whether things are right or wrong. Um it's not to say that we can't actually mix hot water with with an ethanol base um and make a uh beverage because we can. Um and we've done we've shown that with hot todds, which is quite interesting. So um, you know, there's it's not just a single beverage in itself, but the system allows for a crossover. So going from a tea to a spirit and then a and a tea and a spirit combined into the same recipe, it's quite quite intriguing.
+
+[11:12] If for instance we have a drink that um that we make using um Buffalo Trace because it's uh a little bit sweeter, and we get this beautiful Madagascar vanilla bean and this um both from Rishi P and as well as this um this uh this beautiful black tea from Rishi Tea. We put it in the porta filter with the bourbon. Um so that bourbon is let's say 75 degrees and there's six ounces of it. And then we add eight ounces of 200 degree water, so now we're at somewhere between let's say 140 degrees, math is in my strong suit. Um but we are able to extract within about 90 seconds flavors from that bourbon and tea in um I'm sorry, the flavors from that tea and vanilla into the water and the bourbon because we have increased the temperature, but we're now have the um the bourbon in there acting as a solvent as well.
+
+[12:02] Um but to your to your point, it's the the digital part is only one side, the other side is the art, and that is the art that occurs on the content partner side, whether it's a coffee roaster or tea company or a chef or a mixologist that's creating a recipe and has the knowledge and expertise of how to source and curate and prepare the ingredients. And then the second part is um understanding the parameters and having the right code, having the right recipes, so you when you put the two together the magic occurs. Right. Now is it oh I I never knew is it is it Frankie or Frankie? It's um it it depends where you are in the world.
+
+[12:39] In America we call it Frankie uh Frankie and in Europe it's Frankie. It's F-R-A-N-K-E. Um one of the reasons we chose to work with them is as you realize this technology was going to be very broad reaching and have applications in home applications and vending and and bottling way down the you know way down the road we knew we needed to be um we needed to be flawless in the food service space where the content would be created. And as an example when we looked at other boutique companies that were bringing technologies to market a lot of them were building these technologies in garages on their own, which really is very exciting and and um and definitely has an appeal to it but there's obviously a lot of cost and a lot of risks that go into it. We chose Franki because they're a multi-billion dollar organization and as an example when McDonald's wanted to do MEC Cafe and they said they needed thousands and thousands of locations activated in one year and those machines couldn't be down for more than four hours and they needed to be call centers and service um networks set up to to protect this and the machines have to be built to a certain specy that won that and executed on it.
+
+[13:47] So our equipment is being built in the same uh at the same caliber on the same platform. I mean the interesting thing about that particular company is they're freaking huge, right? But in terms of the US, their penetration from like, I don't know, in the QSR world, but in like the fine restaurant world, really only in the coffee sector. Like, but they have a huge business outside of that in Europe and all over the world. I wonder why they never like they sell autoclaves, they sell, you know, all sorts of stuff.
+
+[14:15] I wonder why they don't have the penetration in the other segments here. It's an interesting thing I've always wondered about with those guys. Yeah, I I uh I can't speak to their business. Um but but what I can say is that uh you know they definitely have the infrastructure and um they've been incredibly been an amazing partner and incredibly um um I I guess uh non-traditional in terms of um stepping out of their their big infr infrastructure organizational um uh norms to be very innovative and adaptive with us as as entrepreneurs. So um it's it's really sort of the best of both worlds in that you know we're um beacon gets to still be essentially be essentially involved from the innovation um and ideation and marketing standpoint um with them but they bring um you know decades and decades of experience and you know unbelievable unbelievable infrastructure that we could never uh um practically you know uh pragmatically raise the money or or or build.
+
+[15:13] All right, so you don't have a unit yet that people can futz around with at home. Where can they go? Like who who's who's buying these things now, how much they cost? Sure. So so this is a purely a commercial unit.
+
+[15:23] Um the uh the the market price that these should be that these should be um finding being sold for somewhere around the 14k mark. Ouch! Oh now if you look at it from a commercial standpoint, you really only need to put, you know, uh, you know, twenty teas through it a day to to break even within a matter of months. Right. And we have customers who've gone from, as an example on the tea side, who had no tea beverage business and they were just dry tea sellers.
+
+[15:51] Maybe they did it maybe 10 hot teas a day because they weren't promoting it, to putting this in and now having seventy hot teas a day. Um so it's gonna be transformational. The other thing is um just to point out is that because it's an open technology, it allows you to deliver that level of of quality across any beverage, and so it allows you to do things that you can never even do before. As an example, our infused water capabilities are um un unmatched and really, you know, big can cannot be achieved by anything else. Um our ability to do make to order iced teas.
+
+[16:25] We can brew loose leaf tea and and and concentrate it over ice to make the freshest tasting iced tea in 90 seconds. Um to do that would take eight minutes, so you wouldn't even be in the game anywhere else in doing it. So from a business standpoint, it's purely it's it's it's a it's a moneymaker, it's a commercial machine, and that's what we're focused on. We've just started putting in market um uh we got our NSF certification late last fall. Um, and there's numerous companies that have been purchasing them.
+
+[16:51] There's dozens, um, well over 50 that uh something between 50 and 100 that have already been purchased that are uh going into market. Um you can begin to see it at Whole Foods in Chicago. Um they're doing great things with it. Um Q Ashinson down Empire State South, we're gonna be with him actually this Sunday. Uh Panzer Coffee in Miami, they're um rolling out multiple locations.
+
+[17:14] We're gonna be with them actually on Wednesday. Um there's uh Brennan Danes outside of Philadelphia, really innovative. You guys got you have to watch them. They have uh they've got some incredible investors and um incredible model. Um what they're doing in sort of the health fast food health QSR model is uh is really disruptive.
+
+[17:34] Um they're building an entire pro they're using it for their keys and their their infused waters. Um Gabriel uh Cruther um up in uh uh um in Midtown is opening up a new restaurant. He has one. Um it's uh does your website have a list of places like it's like uh that so like if someone is lives, I don't know, if they live, I don't know, where do they live, Stas Cleveland? Sure.
+
+[17:56] They live in Cleveland. Like, can they go on uh on your website and find someone like you know close to them that has one or no? Not yet, but what I can say is that there's um that in addition to the boutiques that it's very likely you're gonna see some some significant um uh multi-unit players in the craft beverage space that um are gonna make this more accessible on a nationwide level. Um so it's right now a lot of the not a lot of the buy-in, as within any new product is in this innovative, that innovator demographic, which is actually represents about two percent of your market. The next stage is the early adopters, and that we're really sort of still in that innovator custom early adopter phase of people who are using it, but the results have been um you know we're we're we're we're seeing increases of sales at 165% um within established beverage categories of people.
+
+[18:52] Right. Now one last question, but then we have to go to break. Are you worried at all? I guess not because you're working with uh Frankie, but are you worried about being clovered where like some big person buys you and then crushes the technology into tiny pieces? No, and and that's exactly why we partnered with Frankie, and that we're um you know, we're building this thing to bring it around the world.
+
+[19:09] And most importantly, we're building this to populate the beacon the craft cloud, which um once that content is up there, it's gonna allow us to answer your question from before, it's gonna allow us to move very quickly into the home space because the content will exist. The home model is much simpler for us to build. Um, and so we already are adding content partners like Reshi T and Counterculture Coffee, and it just it's like apps, and once those are there, when home units come out, you're gonna know exactly what you love, and you're gonna pull those apps down. Um can really pull recipes that you've created, Dave, and they could have their own cocktail or water or coffee recipe, and they hit that button as long as they have the ingredients they're in the game. I don't know if they want any recipes that we created, right, Stad?
+
+[19:49] Anyway, gentlemen, thanks so much. Look it out, be it's BKON.com, right? Beacon? Yes, you got it. Check it out, check it out.
+
+[19:57] Really interesting new technology. Thanks for coming on the show. We'll be right back with a little more cooking issues. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets.
+
+[20:37] White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Urban Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway Butcher Counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them.
+
+[21:07] And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers, whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Chorro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them.
+
+[21:42] Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information. You have to eat 'em to save them. Love that. You have to eat them to save them. Well, not that particular one because he's dead.
+
+[21:53] You know what I mean? But you know, in general, I get it. I get what you're saying. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Stas, how you doing?
+
+[21:59] Good. Yeah? Anything good happening today after the show? Oh, uh nerd sale. You're gonna say it?
+
+[22:05] Say it. No, you say it. You got the you got the uh reverb on me, Jack? Oh, yeah, here we go. Nerd sale.
+
+[22:15] That happens at 2 30. Uh yeah, there I thought we said two. Oh. Yeah, we'll be there at two. Yeah, around two, two thirty.
+
+[22:22] You know, bring cash in a truck because I'm not touching it. I wore a light blue shirt today. I didn't wear my I want to see this happen where you're doing it. Uh it's gonna be off. Like, I'm gonna take you saying I have to take the shirt off.
+
+[22:36] Yeah. Or we're just gonna be we're gonna be sipping old booze straight out of the bottle. Yeah, I have the waivers to sign, I have everything. Yeah, yeah. If you buy something that's dangerous, hey, it's on you.
+
+[22:46] It's on you, baby. You know what I mean? Also, one more thing. I have a request. First of all, uh uh I missed this question, it's too late because I didn't know when the thing was, but Julian wrote in saying, I'm traveling to San Francisco for the WWDC, which is I think the Apple developer thing this year, and I'm lucky enough to have some free time, but I didn't realize before the conference, and it just started, so he missed his free time.
+
+[23:06] So tweet to him, uh tweet to me for him any suggestions you have for his remaining time in the San Francisco Bay Area of places to go. Uh I need to go back there soon. I forget why, but I have to go back to San Francisco soon, and then I can have my own fresh recommendations. But uh, I hope you're having a good time there, Julian. Why don't you tweet us and tell us where you went, whether you enjoyed it?
+
+[23:22] Right, Stas? Yeah. Did you enjoy it? Did you have a good time? Uh okay.
+
+[23:27] Also, I have a request. This is a goes a request out. Uh, to anyone who listens to this show who lives in a mountainous region. I'm interested in Turkish coffee that is produced at altitude. And so if you live in kind of like your in your like 6,000, uh that's like around 2,000 or 1800 meters or somewhere in there, like the boiling point of water should just about be at optimum coffee extraction temperature.
+
+[23:54] And I want to know whether your Turkish coffee is uh is it's especially delicious. I don't know, do you're a natural Libre fan styles? You've seen that movie? Today is especially delicious. I want to know whether it's any different from uh us uh you know chumps down here at sea level producing uh producing coffee.
+
+[24:10] So tweet me in, let me know, because I'm I gotta tell the Turkish coffee man story. Which one? I mean the copper maker story. You didn't do it. Well, when I when I when I run my own tests, I'll talk about the the guy.
+
+[24:22] But like I look, I have a nice look. Uh for those of you that are actually Turks, you're gonna get mad if I call the Turkish coffee maker an ebrik because you use the term ebric to mean something else. But here in the United States, when we refer to a Turkish coffee maker, we call it an e brick. And the Greeks who don't care about what anyone calls anything in Turkey, they call it a brickie, right? He's like a brickie.
+
+[24:40] We mine's from Greece. It's very nice. Nastasia bought it for me, and it was very cheap because as we all know, the economy in Greece. Not so bueno. But uh I feel I'll tell a story later because I gotta get some questions.
+
+[24:51] But uh, I'm interested very interested in Turkish coffee, and I am very interested in rubbing it in the face of snobs who think that Turkish coffee is not a good product or can't be a good product because it doesn't fit their particular idea of what good coffee should be. And uh, you know, any time somebody uh does something as a cultural ritual for hundreds and hundreds of years, I'm just gonna go ahead and say there's probably something to it, right, Stas? Probably something to it, or people wouldn't keep freaking doing it. That's true. You know, like crappy percolators from the 50s, like no one sits around doing those anymore.
+
+[25:23] You know why? I do. You use a percolator, you use a freaking percolator, one that goes gab bloop, gab bloop, gab bloop into the plastic top. You put it on your stove and it goes bloop. Yeah.
+
+[25:35] Yeah. It died. It died, yeah. Fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:38] Or like mocha pot, like has its own kind of like advantages, you know what I mean? It has its own kind of its own kind of brew. But the fact of the matter is is that these technologies have sustained themselves because they produce something that people freaking like. So why thumb your nose at the idea? Let's just figure out what all the parameters are in Turkish coffee.
+
+[25:55] I'll let you know one thing about Turkish coffee is that every single American I've seen do it, does it wrong. They do it freaking wrong. For those of you that for those of you that have no idea, I don't really have the time to go into it, but here it is. So, like Turkish coffee, like extremely finely ground, almost like a powder, right? So whether you mix it into the water when it's already hot or not, depends on where where you make it, like whether you're doing it in Serbia and Turkey, Greece, whatever.
+
+[26:19] But we're not even gonna get into that. So you put the powdered thing in, and then it comes up and forms a froth, which is called a boil, right? And in America, they always say you boil it three times, right? But if you look at Americans do it, they're such jokers, right? That what we do is we let it boil up and then we don't do anything, we let it settle back down, and then we just boil that three times and pour it, and then you spoon the froth off the top.
+
+[26:42] No. You do this it look, you don't have to go to Turkey, right, to know this. This is why YouTube was invented. Not really, but this is why I don't like the fact that YouTube was invented, because I can go watch a video of like 12 different folks in Turkey making Turkish coffee and instantly realize that as soon as it froths up, first of all, they cook it in sand, right? And that's why I haven't tested yet because I haven't gotten the sand.
+
+[27:07] I didn't want to buy a 50-pound sack of it in Home Depot because, as Nastasia likes to say, I'm not a real man, I'm a straw man. Anyway, uh and I was like, I don't need 50, it's not that I can't lift the 50 pounds of sandstars. It's what the hell am I gonna do with the other 48 freaking pounds? Throw it in the trash? Anyways, I need a small amount of sand.
+
+[27:23] So you put sand into a like into a pan, put it over coals, and it's very evening. Uh anyway, so it boils up, it makes a froth, you then pour that froth out right now into the cup. Then you let it froth again, then you pour that froth out again, then maybe if you want, you do it a third time, and then you pour it out and you leave a lot of the grounds in the cup. That's the way to do it. And I've never seen an American do it that way.
+
+[27:47] Maybe that's why snobby Americans thumb their noses at it because they just have no idea how to properly make it. Anyway, I'm gonna go through the investigation. Why? Because I enjoy it. Now, if I can get to a question before they p unplug my mic and kick me out of here.
+
+[28:00] Um Tom wrote in I didn't tell me if I answer this question uh or not. For instance, like Jason wrote in about uh gimlets, and I think I answered it already. Jason, if I didn't answer your gimlet question, your basil gimlet question, just write it back. Just write me again. Say, hey, jerk, you didn't answer it.
+
+[28:17] You know what I mean? Uh, and uh, and I will. Uh so uh Tom wrote in uh and he says hello to uh Nastasia Jack and the and the rest of the crew, which is very nice. Uh uh finally up to date to the podcast. Uh got three questions, order by priority.
+
+[28:31] Uh I've been using my sans server circulator, we're getting amazing results on fish and pork belly, but when I tried the hundred-hour oxtail recipe of modernist cuisine, did I do this? No, thanks. Okay. Uh I found off flavors and gas development starting around 50 hours of circulation. The same thing happened with the modernist cuisine, 72-hour short ribs, 58 or 60 uh degrees Celsius recipe, which I luckily got out before they actually went off.
+
+[28:54] I had the oxtail and ribs vacpacked at my local butcher with a chamber vac sealer. Now, I assume the reason that's to do with bacteria not getting killed off, which may be due to slightly big water bath. But the short ribs uh were uh fixed in the center, and I measured the temperature throughout the bath with a thermometer, indicating constant and correct temperature every everywhere. Any ideas what went wrong? All right, yes, I have some ideas.
+
+[29:16] I think what happened is like let's say you had uh a bunch of short ribs in a you have to tell me, right? But let's say you had a bunch of short ribs in one package, right? So there's sauce and microbes and all sorts of like nastiness, right, inside of the bag, in the center of the bag, right? And I think what happens is it just took too long for the temperature, the kill temperatures to make it to the inside of the bag, right? So if you were to take uh a block, uh this is my favorite example, I don't know why, but if you were to take a block of meat, whole meat that had never been pierced with a knife, like let's say don't cook kill and cook whales, but let's say you had a chunk of whale flesh, single chunk of whale flesh, because I can't think of any other animal big enough to do this, right?
+
+[30:01] That is the size of like a Chevy small block engine, right? And you were to put that into a bag, one piece, right, and then you were to circulate it, right? Then it doesn't matter really how long it takes for the center of that whale chunk to get up to cooking temperature because the inside of the meat is fundamentally sterile unless it had an infection or unless you stabbed it with a knife all the way through to the center. Now, as soon as you get in a situation where because the whale meat is extremely uh, you know, it's very it's very lean, it's a quail. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:31] Well, they got a lot of blubber, but I think the meat itself, the muscles, I don't know how marbled it is, I've never seen, I've never cooked whale meat, obviously, because I'm not for killing whales. But as soon as you take big pieces of lard or or or blubber and you start like penetrating the meat with and like putting stuff in the middle of it, or if you start hacking up that big piece of meat and then laminating it together with sauce, or if you take a bunch of different ribs and sh and short, you know, uh short ribs or whatever you're using oxtail and you pack them all into one bag, well now you have contamination in the middle of your bag. So if it takes six hours for the middle of the bag to get up to kill temperatures, you have plenty of time for bacteria to start growing and puffing the bag out. Once the bag puffs out, then you can have a reduced temperature everywhere in it and you can continue to grow and it can go off. So I think that's what happened, because the temperatures that you're using are clearly high enough to kill everything.
+
+[31:21] So even if you're cooking at home and uh and you're not gonna be doing portion control work, I always recommend, if you can, to bag each uh large each piece, like each oxtail or each rib, in a s a separate bag, if you can, and barring that, because also then if you lose a bag, you only lose one piece of meat, but and you know, if uh it's that jerk who said they were gonna come over to dinner doesn't come over to dinner, you can always just chill that bag without contaminating the rest of your bag. How often is that happens, Doz? Like they could they're like, uh I'm late all the time. All the time, right? So then you could take that bag that you would plan to serve to your ungrateful uh house guest and put it back in the, you know, chill it down and put it back in the fridge.
+
+[32:01] So it's it's convenient a lot of times, although wasteful of plastic, to have them individually bagged. But barring that, you should have all of your individual pieces of meat in a single layer, and I think that might solve your problem. And when I say single layer, such that the bag can get all the way around it, right? So if you have a bunch that are laminated together, even you know, it's it could cause problems. I think that's what's happening.
+
+[32:19] Uh second problem is uh on centrifuges. Uh via my university, I had the uh fortune uh of uh using a centerfuge to make some oh no, I answered the pea butter question. Peanut butter question, I think I answered. Okay. I remembered answering a peanut butter question.
+
+[32:31] Listen, if I didn't answer the rest of your questions, Tom, let me know and and I'll and I'll get to them. You can ask me more questions. One more question. One more question. One more question.
+
+[32:40] Uh okay. Let's see, let's see what this one is. Uh hey, Dave, uh Nastasha, Jack, and Annie Poppins. This is from Christian. Uh love the show.
+
+[32:48] Discovered it after my buddies at Arden Restaurant here in Milwaukee. Stas, you love Milwaukee. It's one of the things you like. Hate biscuits, loves Milwaukee. Uh called in to get recipe for brandy old-fashioned slushies for their late-night ramen transformation.
+
+[33:01] Uh, my wife and I just bought a house, congrats, uh, and discovered the previous owners had never installed a water line into the freezer. What the hell does this guy's doing? What are they doing? How do you not have a water line in your people? Uh ice makers good.
+
+[33:14] Ice maker good. Um into the freezer. So we are iceless barring a midsummer snowstorm. Uh even up there I don't think you get them. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[33:24] Do you know that Dax used to when he was roasting coffee in the in the winter, he would run out and snow chill it? He over he overrose it. And Dax wanted to go into business selling snow chilled Dax's dark roast snow chilled coffee. And I was like, good luck with that, Dax. Good luck.
+
+[33:40] You know, I would support him, but that's a hard, that's a hard business model because you have to wait for snow or move to Sweden or something. Uh okay. So we're ICES barring a midsummer snowstorm. You can probably have a line installed, but you can, by the way. But before doing that, I wanted to get your thoughts on making ice at home.
+
+[33:55] We basically have two uses. One, the rapid uh cooling during cooking, uh blanching, bringing cooked ice cream base or yogurt down, standard uh beer cooler uh filling, and two, ice for cocktails. Uh considering uh getting a greater than $300 standalone uh ice maker for rapid cooling and making cubes uh using the cooler in freezer technique described uh you know on Dave Stolte's website for bar ice. How would you set up a good home ice program from scratch? Any recommendations for inexpensive ice makers that could work for both the cooking and bar applications, thanks, Christian.
+
+[34:29] All right, look. Uh this oh, that used to be my telephone. Uh the okay, let me give you some good and bad news. The the good news is well, it's there's no good news. Like, I would get the expensive uh ice maker.
+
+[34:44] Well, okay, look. What do I have? I got you know, I got a I got flat back because I I pronounced it incorrectly. I don't I'm gonna say it the way I say it, and then someone can write in again and tell me how to actually pronounce it. Manitawok?
+
+[34:55] Manitowok, manitawak. That's the company, the ice maker company that I have at home. Um commercial ice maker, I would get an under-counter commercial ice maker, and I would try to find some knucklehead who's uh getting rid of it. Now the problem is they use a lot of uh energy, right? They use a lot of energy because they're constantly making ice, right?
+
+[35:14] Definitely that what you really should do is just drill a hole in your freezer and put a water line in and then buy a and and most likely your freezer has a space in the back for you to put the water line in, and most likely you can just put in a um you could put in a an ice maker because I I've done that before. You know, get a filter and an ice maker and do it, uh, you know, run like a quarter-inch line of copper to it, and that's just gonna make ice because really you want kind of crappy ice for your normal chilling, you don't want the big blocks, and then you can just do like uh freezer things. But if you're gonna have what you didn't mention is that you're gonna put uh seltzer water on tap. Now, assuming that you like seltzer water and who doesn't, right? Like I use a cold chiller and I have that in the bottom of a commercial ice machine.
+
+[36:00] So I always have decent ice on hand all the time because it makes it. And I use uh a very nice uh Manita walk, and the reason I like it is because you can it makes a nice kind of large cube. Uh it's weird octagonal shape. It looks like those little jello cup shapes, but um you can shut it off because they're very loud. So if if someone in the house is like, ah, it's so loud, uh, you can shut it off for like two hours and it'll come back on and continue to make ice.
+
+[36:26] But that thing, I use it to chill actually when I make my big cooler of ice, uh, I use hot water from the tap and then throw those ice cubes into it to get the temperature down without including a lot of gas by pouring back and forth, then put the cooler in the freezer and and go from there. So the best from a budget standpoint is to aftermarket install your own uh ice maker into your freezer because they make ice on a cycle but don't require a lot of water and energy, and they actually store the ice without melting, whereas a commercial ice maker is constantly making ice and letting it melt down. The quality of the ice in the home in the inside of the freezer ones is never quite as high, so you're always going to want to make some ice uh in in in a cooler, but it's a lot less energy intensive and a lot cheaper. So that's my recommendations. Uh back next week with Cooking Issues.
+
+[37:17] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:02] Cox Internet de 300 megas tiene las velocidades rapidas and buscas. Perfecto para streaming and gaming and trabajar desde casa. No esperes. Cambia hoy a Cox. Requiere Cox Mobile Gig Unlimited Garantie de Presion including puzzles and cargoes velocidad 20 gigas al mes.
+
+[0:30] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the Food Scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking News. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking New Shoes, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, roughly 1250, something like that. Call it Noonish. Noonish. Noonish-ish.
+
+[1:19] Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hemer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Yeah? We got Jack in the Engineering Booth.
+
+[1:26] Hello. Thank goodness. I don't like to do the show without Jack in the Engineering Booth. Oh, thanks. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:31] I know. And we have a special guest with us today. We have uh Darren from Meld Meld. Now, MELD, although it sounds like a delicious grilled cheese corporation, is not. Do you like growth she sandwiches?
+
+[1:45] I do. What's not to like? Exactly. But I figure if you have a company named Meld, then you gotta like grilled cheese sandwiches. Otherwise it's like, you know, it's gonna be problems.
+
+[1:53] Uh but anyway, they do not in fact manufacture you know what's a bad name for no offense for a grilled cheese sandwich corporation? Cheese boy. Yeah. Isn't that the one that's on the I95? Cheese boy.
+
+[1:59] No. First of all, like why you why are you making an agendered thing? Like why are you going gender on your grilled cheese sandwich? Grilled cheese sandwich is a non-gendered delicious item, in my opinion. You know, and I I've passed by not staffed only by boys.
+
+[2:23] First of all, you want like an adult making your grilled cheese sandwiches anyway. I mean, like we do have labor laws. I'm just saying, someone can call in and convince me that I'm wrong, but I just think it's kind of not a good name. Whereas, like, not a grilled cheese corporation, but like FUDRuckers, it's too hilarious not to like the name of, right? I can't believe that like there's millions of dollars invested in a corporation called FUDRuckers that makes food for people.
+
+[2:46] You ever been to a Fudrucker's? I have. So it's like a free fixings bar, a lot of like Roy Rogers back in the 70s. Exactly. Loves Roy Rogers.
+
+[3:04] Free fixes bar, baby. Yeah. So what I would do, you know, my Roy Rogers trick with the low quality salad bar ingredients they had for the free fixings, was I would pile it high to ruin the burger, like you say, but then I would move it aside and then I would have a salad with my burger. I would take the toppings back off of the burger. And then have there all kinds of uh kinds of good tricks.
+
+[3:22] When I was in grad school, we used to uh eat lunch at this uh terrible cafeteria on campus, and it would come with a little side salad. But if you put the dressing in the bottom of the little bowl first and then piled everything up on that, it would stick together and then you'd go to the table and flip it over, and you'd have like, you know, five times the salad anyone else would. That's some smart business. And and that, that, friends and listeners, is the kind of thinking that uh is gonna bring to your kitchen in the near future meld. Now, meld not being a grilled cheese corporation, what they do, and I'm actually like uh frankly uh excited to see it out because we have one here, is that it's the knob that automatically turns your gas stove range, rather, up.
+
+[4:06] Can it do stoves too? Yeah, it it does electric. It's it's not quite as perfect uh as it is on gas, but anything that's got a knob, it can turn. Uh Rebecca, you can do ranges and ovens, gas, or electric? Correct.
+
+[4:19] Anyway, it it turns the knob for you so that you can have adequate uh temperature control. We had them on the phone uh I don't know, a couple months ago, and uh some of the stuff I thought was interesting was uh you know uh as more and more users use it, uh they'll be able to write more and more interesting algorithms like a rice cooker algorithm or uh all sorts of fun stuff. Because once you once you have computers controlling everything, you know, not only will they take over the world and turn us into their slaves instead of the other way around, but you can do interesting things like turn your gas range into a rice cooker. Exactly. Yeah.
+
+[4:53] And so what we've got here is we've got one mounted on a little portable butane burner. Uh no butane involved uh at this point. Oh, there's no butane on it? Uh no. Uh Jack uh kind of vetoed that given the uh confines.
+
+[5:06] What the hell, dude? These are rated for indoor cooking. You know, I just had the same freaking problem. I have to do a freaking demo in uh London in like a week and a half, right, Stas? And I just got a text today.
+
+[5:19] We can't get I'll I will read the text in its entirety just because of how irritating. No, yeah, I'm not gonna say who's involved because I'm not gonna throw anyone under the bus specifically. But I had the same problem when we were I was in London a couple of weeks ago where no one wants to get liquid nitrogen. Here's it okay. Our issue with uh is with supplier delivery of liquid nitrogen and storage and health and safety issues in a live show environment.
+
+[5:43] Uh it's not even the one that was uh I really need to know the details of what you'll be doing and order any ingredients you need. And here's what it says liquid nitrogen is possible, but we need more details for risk assessment and methods statement. If you could tell me more about your demo and had a video you could send, we need to answer such questions as how do we ensure liquid nitrogen has evaporated from the glass, etc. You look at it. We dump out the glass and we look at it.
+
+[6:08] Furthermore, when you add a liquid to the glass that had liquid nitrogen in it, if there is liquid nitrogen present, it will continue to smoke. You know, I've I've been to Booker and Dex. I've seen them manage the uh liquid nitrogen and the glass problem pretty pretty well. Yeah, the only person that I'm aware of that was injured by the a customer who was injured by the use of liquid nitrogen, the liquid nitrogen was intentionally placed in the glass and handed to her. Yeah, that was weird.
+
+[6:33] Int intentionally placed in the glass and handed to her. And all of the UK is like on flip doodles about using LN, right? It's a completely valid technique to use it, and they're all going freaking pretzel because some jackwad intentionally poured liquid nitrogen into some lady's drink. It's nuts. Yeah, well, you know, all there's all kinds of things we use that uh have created a a problem when misused, but when used properly produce great results, right?
+
+[7:07] Yeah, you know I gotta uh put a caller through. He's been patiently waiting. Let's put that thought on pause. All right, but I'm gonna make hammers and bricks illegal because people hit each other with them sometimes. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[7:19] Collar, you're on the air. Hey, I can't hear you, man. Oh, hey I hear you. Are you can you hear me now? I can hear you a little bit, yeah.
+
+[7:26] All righty, what's going on? Hey, I'm a biodynamic uh CSA farmer down in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. Nice. Which is in the eastern panhandle just outside of Washington, DC. And uh the reason I'm calling you is uh I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but the uh old line CSA people, the original grassroots CSA people are uh having a pretty hard time nowadays.
+
+[7:50] And in the DC area, uh uh those of us who hold to the original standards of CSA, which is uh soil farm and a group of people gathered around the farm to get food of a quality that's not being produced by the open market system. Right. Um are being beat out by uh well out outright uh commercial vegetable distributions, CSAs that aren't even organic, CSAs that don't have a farm or a farmer, uh aggregators, which are things put together by the USDA that scoop up a bunch of crops from uh just c uh c uh I guess commercially oriented farms, put 'em out in uh share bags like a CSA does, but that's kind of all b beside the point. Uh I've I've been doing CSA since uh I think uh nineteen ninety was our first CSA. And um it's uh hard to hold on to a community in the DC area because it's such uh there's so much turnover in the area and so much uh house flipping and so people in neighborhoods change rather rapidly.
+
+[8:57] But uh I the reason I'm I'm calling you Dave is because I've been listening to your program for a really long time and I realize you have a a really uh great understanding of how the restaurant businesses work. And uh there's myself and several other farmers out here in West Virginia. They're probably gonna go belly up this season if we don't find an outlet other than CSA for our produce. And uh being tied to the land, try still trying to support the couple dozen CSA shares I've sold this year instead of our our CSA's been up to three hundred and fifty shares some years. Uh I think it's twenty-four this year.
+
+[9:39] Oh my god. Um I I wonder if there's some easy way for farmers who like I said are tied to the land running around with irrigation hoses for six hours a day and whatnot to contact chefs who are interested in very flavorful local foods. Well first of all, give for me it would be the DC area, but give the give the name give the name of your of your farm in case anyone in DC is looking to, you know, contact you. What's the what's the name of your farm? It's fresh and local CSA.
+
+[10:09] It is it is uh in local harvest, it is uh on the web, it's fresh and local CSA dot com. And uh it's uh fifteen years on this soil with biodynamic techniques. All the produce is outrageously flavorful because of all of the uh minerals that are in the soil and available to the plants now. And how's the crop year looking this year? Were you hit by the same like the late uh late kind of spring that we got up here?
+
+[10:34] Are you guys doing all right for for crops? Um well we're okay with crops, but everything was late this year, and it and it was I don't know how it was for you, but for us it went from freezing nights to 90 degree days in the same week, I believe. Yeah, it's ping-ponging like crazy. I didn't uh it's never never seen anything quite like it. But um well, let me say this.
+
+[10:55] I think that you know, New York has a uh a fantastic model in our green market. And uh, you know, for a long time uh the the advantage of the green market, right, is that you get kind of what I like to call a critical mass of suppliers together. Now the average person on the street thinks of the green market as a place that they can go buy uh veg, but you know, all the chefs I know think of the green market as a place where they can interact directly with the farmer as supplier, right? And the advantage from the farmer's standpoint is obviously they know in advance that they have to bring X, Y, and Z because they know the chefs are gonna are gonna buy it because they have communication prior to them arriving at the at the farm. And believe it or not, I think it's fairly efficient for uh the farmer because they either they or you know someone that they're having doing their their truck for them really only has to give up one day, you know what I mean, uh to go and interact with uh the chefs.
+
+[11:58] And the chefs, it's very easy for them because they know that let's say you grow fantastic peppers, right? And then uh that you know they'll get the peppers from you, but let's say they know that they really like the you know the purple basil from some other farmer, they can go get that. And so you get a critical mass together, the chef can make the run to the green market. Here the main ones are are uh Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. I mean, we're a huge market, but you know what I mean?
+
+[12:25] But uh even one or two of those days would be enough to sustain it. But I think what you what you need is a critical mass of like-minded uh farmers. Do you I mean do you have a structure like that in DC uh for it for a green market the way that we we operate it? Because I think that's really the method that's allowed a lot of farmers here in uh New Jersey and the Hudson Valley really kind of stay connected with the chef community. Yeah, well, there are several really good markets in DC, but they've been closed to new farmers for a lot of years.
+
+[12:56] Huh. And so that's uh that's the problem. Huh, it's a really interesting problem. You know, I'd love to hear kind of uh and you know, and I haven't heard that flip side of it either. Like I don't know whether there's a lot of farmers who would, you know, be itching to supply New York chefs but can't because they're getting shut out of our green market system.
+
+[13:13] Specifically the Union Square Green Market is the big one we have here, which is you know on 14th Street. Uh I mean there's a bunch of others that chefs also go to, but that's uh kind of main one. But I I you know it's a really interesting question. I think it's something that needs to be kind of uh needs to be kind of addressed, and I would encourage you know, any chefs in the DC area to you know reach out to you, anyone that's like listening. You know what you know, you have something to go?
+
+[13:36] I I mean I I totally agree with that, and I think you know, just giving a perspective from Seattle, which is where I'm from, um, you know, Pike Place Market, it's a hundred and something years old, it's kind of the big famous one that that people know about, but um, but there are a lot of other markets, and and I think you know, if you're looking for where the chefs are going in in Seattle, at least it's not there, it's probably you know, more like the Ballard uh market on Sundays and and there are a few others, but uh you know, they've they've expanded to the point that uh even though Pike Place may be shut out to to new vendors, um, you know, some of these other markets around town are uh are available. And I think you know you're you're more likely to see uh Seattle chefs probably walking around and sampling what's uh what's available in Ballard than you are at Pike Place these days. Right. I mean, one thing I know for sure is that chefs will chefs will seek out and go through great pains and trouble to seek out the good ingredients. However, once they seek it out, the supply chain to them needs to be relatively convenient because it needs to be it needs to be able to be gotten to the restaurant like on a kind of a regular or semi-regular base.
+
+[14:49] Now they'll deal with, you know, they'll deal with uh I don't have any potatoes this week, you know, they you know the whatever we gotta we had a fail crop failure. They'll deal with this, you know what I mean? But it's it's more like you know, they can't drive you know 50 miles to go to go get their to go get their stuff because they're simultaneously getting from a bunch of different suppliers. So I mean I think it's just a question of figuring out how you can uh you know gather like enough like like-minded farmers in you know in some sort of new venue, and it doesn't have to be like super organized or even super nice, as long as the chefs know that it's gonna be there and know that they can count on sending like one person uh over there and they can and they can pick up what they need from like four or five suppliers that they've um developed a relationship with. Um but you know, one thing I know about chefs, at least the people that like I deal with and I know, is that they are monsters for uh quality and they love absolutely love having personal relationships with farmers.
+
+[15:55] Love it. You know, yeah, completely agree. Yeah. Yeah so let me throw in there I I don't have any problem driving down to DC if we're talking about some sort of scale right yeah it's just a question of making of like making it of of like you know germinating the idea planting the seed and like reaching that critical mass I mean there's going to be the the real problem is is that either way from the chef side and from the farmer side there's going to be like a time period where everyone's sucking wind trying to get enough uh enough of a critical mass to make it worthwhile for everyone but uh and I mean I hope someone in DC you know hears this or you know I mean or if you're calling someone else and has like some sort of uh uh and you know and you know Jack this is something that Heritage Radio could take on as a as a problem too because you know a lot of people uh on this network are interested in this kind of problem as well. Yeah a hundred percent yeah why don't you leave your information with Jack and then we'll um we'll try to see if we have anyone that um is more of a specific expert in this but uh yeah absolutely so info at heritageradio network dot org is gonna be the best way because we're gonna drop the call and uh go to another caller but definitely shoot us an email and we will stay in touch.
+
+[17:10] Alright thanks so much for calling that's a uh interesting subject we have that we haven't addressed here on the radio all right thanks so much um all right cool thanks Jack so back to Mel to have one oh we have another caller is the second caller on the line oh caller you're on the air uh hi uh my name is Rob I'm calling because I'm looking to set up a draft soda system. Right? I wanted to know what other things you turn out. Well, you're cutting in and out. I heard you're setting up a draft soda system and you want to know certain things, and then when you actually said what the certain things was, you cut out.
+
+[17:45] Sorry, I I started to. Um my goodness. One second. Like it's literally like I hear the word specifically, and then all of the actual specifics are trailing off. Yeah, give us a ring back if you get.
+
+[18:02] Oh, wait. Are you there? Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. Cell service is a is a is a wretched thing, is it not?
+
+[18:09] All right. So okay, so what what are the specific problems you're worried about? Um I'm looking to set up a pre-mix system where I'll be running uh a root beer syrup that I made. Right. Right.
+
+[18:28] Oh. We're so close. So close. So close. Pre mix system with root beer.
+
+[18:36] All right, listen, I can't hear what your actual questions are, but you get like you can call back with the questions, or I'll tell you some of the problems with root beer. Root beer is known for the world over by anyone that's ever made it to be the absolute hardest thing to clean out of your lines. Right? So like if you're doing uh if you're doing a corny keg with uh with root beer, like you need to throw all of the rubber in your tank needs to be thrown away if you want to switch flavors. All of it.
+
+[19:04] You know what I mean? So you gotta throw away the ring gasket. Uh even I know some people replace uh the uh the sealing parts of the uh of the ball lock valves because they say that anything that is even mildly absorbent will absorb flavors from the root beer. This includes the polyethylene tubes that you use uh into into your cold plate. Uh I know that you can wash the actual cold plate out, but it takes kind of a lot uh to do.
+
+[19:29] I'm assuming these are the kind of problems. You might be having a foam now. I'll address another problem you might be having. If you're using now, so the the answer there is just, you know, dedicate a system to root beer. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:42] Dedicate a corny keg to root beer. Uh dedicate, remember I'm a huge advocate of two cold plate circuits for every flavor, not one, two. So I would always get a cold plate that has at least twice as many circuits as you have flavors. And the reason for that is twofold. One, the extra trip through the uh, and this is gonna address the second problem that you might be having with root beer.
+
+[20:02] The uh the second trip through the uh cold plate gives it a longer line, and that longer line uh tends to slow it down a little bit and cause less foam out on the on the on the output. Um the other problem, the other thing it solves is it gets it colder and getting it colder by a good chunk by several degrees, uh also reduces your foam out on the output and plus makes it colder, which duh. Do you want your root beer warm stuff? Do you like root beer? Oh wow, good.
+
+[20:30] I like it too. Uh that's not the like. Exactly, much like grilled cheese. In fact, root beer and grilled cheese might go well together. Anyway, um so um the other the the other problem you're gonna have is uh with foaming.
+
+[20:44] So anytime you're making your own root beer flavors uh with you know uh tree and bark pieces, these things tend to foam like a loony tune. They're really foamy. And in fact, foam is one of the characteristics of root beer, a foamy mug of root beer. But the problem is is you have to keep it somewhat in line. And I would not suggest adding uh, you know, um like silicone derivatives, um uh anti foaming agents, just because I haven't found them really to work, at least in alcoholic beverages.
+
+[21:13] I mean, they'll kill foam maybe in a glass, but they're not gonna kill they're not I don't think it's gonna cause your foam out problems on the thing. I think what your main issues are with foaming is realize you are gonna have some foaming. Then instead of you have to get a very good pre-mix soda valve. I recommend the ones that CM Becker makes, but you know, you can get uh and by the way, kudos to you for doing pre-mix because I think most post mixed soda sucks. But like uh anyway, so I would get a very good valve uh by Becker.
+
+[21:42] It's gonna have like a very long in the back torpedo-shaped compensator that's going to gently take it from uh the pressure in the tube to atmospheric pressure and it's gonna save you a lot of your foam out uh problems. Um like I say, cold is gonna solve your foam out problems, but also clarity. So if you don't have a centrifuge, which I'm assuming you don't, centrifuge is gonna knock out a lot of your particulates and really help here. But I would just take the trouble to really filter your uh bark uh stuff through like you know the finest uh uh strainers that you have, like coffee, even if it takes uh a million years. And eventually I'll get a centrifuge because it can spin all the particulate matter out, and that's really gonna solve a lot of your foaming problems.
+
+[22:23] I'm assuming you had one of those two problems. If you didn't, call me back and uh and and and we'll talk about it. And Jack, should we come back right after the commercial break with our demonstration of mil? Let's squeeze one more call who's been waiting and then go to break. All right, caller, you were on the air.
+
+[22:38] Uh hi, I thought a question about acids in draft cocktails. Oh, nice. Um not I'm sorry, not draft, but I want to I want to carbonate and bottle some cocktails. Sure. But all the suggestions, all suggestions you have in liquid intelligence require uh fresh lime juice.
+
+[22:52] And as we know, storing fresh lime juice makes me the devil. Yes. So I'm I'm curious about acid alternatives that will bottle well and and keep. Alright. I'll give you a couple, I'll give you a couple of suggestions.
+
+[23:05] And uh this one uh you know I hadn't really thought of by the time I I wrote the book, but you know, I like fresh lime juice. I also kind of like lime cordial, right? And lime cordial is you know, so and and literally at the bar, what I what we do to make the lime cordial is I take the leftover clarified lime juice that we have, uh, and then I boil it with uh sugar and a couple of peels of lime, and right away the cordial is good, and it actually ages uh after a couple of weeks, I think it's even like a little bit better. And so that's a stable acid source. Now it doesn't taste like fresh lime, right?
+
+[23:44] So it's not fresh lime flavor. But it's still good flavor. But it's still good flavor. It's different than and it takes a little bit of an education because someone who's looking to have a fresh lime flavor, if you give them a cordial flavor, they're like, This tastes like cordial, and you're like, Yes, but cordial tastes good. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:02] It's the in-between stuff that doesn't taste good. Another option is you can uh bolster I'm I'm a huge fan of including actual citrus in uh in the drinks because as opposed to just acids. So you can do some cordial and then bolster it with some uh acids like a citric uh mallet blend. Um some acid combinations, especially ones that are barely soluble, so like if you make the champagne acid from liquid intelligence, which is a uh a mixture of um it's a three percent um a three percent lactic acid and three percent tartaric acid blend, like that actually blend at that acidity tends to throw crystals, uh, you know, because it's kind of at the limit of it of uh solubility of some of that stuff. And I don't know why, but maybe that's why when you carbonate with champagne acid, you tend to get foamy drinks.
+
+[24:57] Something about that the lactic uh tartaric blend causes foamy drinks. And also when you're bottling something car uh carbonated, like I've noticed certain certain drinks like Kampari, the bitterness is not stable when bottled under acidic conditions. I don't know why. I've never, you know, I've never asked uh someone with a mass spec to look at it, so I don't know why. But it it you know it's definitely true.
+
+[25:22] So you know, I would I would start with um augmented citrus, so you can use like uh clarified orange juice, tastes terrible. Not like terrible, it tastes like sunny D, it tastes like tang, right? It has all of its character stripped. Right. But you can take that and bolster it with citric and malic and you can have a very nice citrus uh you know citrus flavor that'll last for a while.
+
+[25:44] Or if you do cordials and you can augment cordials, like I say, with acid to bolster the freshness level of it by increasingly boosting the acidity higher, so you use less of the cordial, and it is stable as far as I can tell for a long time. Great. Are there any non-citric um things I should look at? Like, you know, just the things that aren't citrus at all? Sure.
+
+[26:05] So I mean, like a any any sort of juice uh can be bolstered, can have its acidity bolstered, right? So um to kind of greater or lesser effect. The trick with it is is uh is is it's figuring out what acids you're gonna add and not adding adding so much that they turn kind of uh fake, right? But you can bolster grape juice. I mean, I tend to like things that have characteristics have like a character because this way when you bolster the acidity of that, like it it helps to like if the fruitiness is there, the actual fruitiness from fruit is there, the acidity doesn't taste fake, whereas it can taste more like a soda-based acidity, like an actual like a flavor, like an just uh it can taste more like an added acidity if there isn't some sort of natural fruit there to back it up.
+
+[26:49] If you want to go dry, obviously the cola acid, the acid that's used in colas is phosphoric acid. I would say that you, you know, um it's one of the few acids that doesn't kind of scale directly weight for weight, you know, you need to use a little bit less of the phosphoric acid. Uh and it's typically sold in very concentrated solutions. So I would take it down, like you you can buy it as like 85% uh phosphoric acid solution, and I would take it down to like six or less, and then start mixing with it at those lower levels because Stas doesn't like the phosphoric acid, right? But are you a cola head?
+
+[27:24] Like, do you like cola? Yeah, so you like mild, like a mild amount of phosphoric acid, but like usually when bartenders try to add phosphoric acid to a drink, they hit it too hard. And you don't like that intense, dry, it's an intensely dry, non-fruity acidity. Um yeah, give those, give those uh give those a shot. Great, thanks.
+
+[27:43] That's very helpful. Alright, good luck with it. Let's know uh tweet on it if you get any good results. I will. Alright, back back from the break with MELD on cooking issues.
+
+[28:20] Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do.
+
+[28:40] Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's Heritage Turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact.
+
+[29:21] Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information. Wouldn't that be awesome? Alec, if you're out there.
+
+[29:45] Alec, if you're out there, let me see you dance. For those of you who are friend uh who like the uh Princess Black album, do you ever you ever listen to that? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Bob George is an intensely weird song.
+
+[29:55] If you're out there, let me see you dance. Okay, so uh so let's look at the meld. I wish it had some freaking flame on it, Jack. Well, it's anyway. It's uh Jack.
+
+[30:06] Yeah. Why do you not let him have the butane in here, man? Listen. It's uh not the first place that has uh has not let me use butane. It's not my restaurant, you know.
+
+[30:19] I can't alright. Uh let's uh see it. And uh Stas, can you make a flame noises? No. So uh so first off, I've I've I've got the knob mounted here on this uh little butane less burner.
+
+[30:31] So you can't see it. What we have here is a a butane picnic burner, which strangely enough, if you actually read the NFPA uh fire codes, uh this is rated as a fine piece of indoor cooking equipment because the butane canister is uh contained and it's uh sits on a table and can't be knocked over. I've gone through these codes a million times when I was doing the Sears all work. But anyway, just saying Okay, so so what I'm gonna do now is is just the the sort of first manual thing. So you can see the knob turned itself.
+
+[30:58] All uh all I'm doing is doing it the old-fashioned way, and actually uh just telling it to go to a certain percentage. But what I'm gonna do now instead is I'm going to set it, uh I'm gonna tell it, okay, I'd like to to go to a temperature of 35 degrees C. And uh that's not very warm, but it's warmer than it is in here. Uh it's 26 right now. So I'm gonna touch the uh the end of this, and that uh this is the temperature probe that goes in the pot or pan, and we're gonna look at the knob and it's gonna it's going to turn on.
+
+[31:34] Right. So as the uh it's actually on high now because it's trying to raise the temperature, but as my body heat actually raises the temperature of this, it's gonna start turning it down because it's thinking, oh, I've got the gas on uh and it's making the temperature go up. So there it goes. You see it start starting to turn itself down uh as we approach the target temperature. And is it auto-tuning now or what's it doing?
+
+[32:00] Exactly. So it's it is what it's trying to do is get to the temperature I want without overshooting, because if it overshoots, it's much harder than even if it turns the gas essentially to zero to come down in temperature. It's much easier to go up. So it's it's biased to not overshoot and to make these very small adjustments. Uh but does it learn your range or is it constantly learning?
+
+[32:24] It it both. Now, how how long is it going to continue to theoretically dump gas into the air with no flame before it it's like no? Well, at this point, it's uh my my body heat's not actually quite quite uh hot enough for it, so I'll turn down the target temperature a little bit, and now it's actually has has turned it uh all the way down. So for for demo purposes, actually, these butane burners are are sort of the worst of all possible worlds, but but uh it also stresses the system, which I really like because if we can handle this, we can handle anything. The reason it's the worst case is because from zero to full blast on this is a rotation of only about 40 degrees.
+
+[33:16] Uh right, whereas most ranges here, it's 180, maybe even 270. And so the precision that we have to get is is much higher on this. Um, so it's actually running at at now four percent. It thinks it's one degree shy of of its target. So, and uh like will this thing light, or do you still need to manually go through the click, click click click click click click click poof?
+
+[33:39] You still have to do that manually. So, what happens is when you start up the app and and choose a recipe, uh, before any cooking step, what it's gonna do is it's gonna say turn it on, and you turn your knob, click, click, click, like you said, it it goes and then leave it at any temperature or any heat level you want. You then hit a button on the app that says, Okay, it's on, I'm handing you control. The app will then say, Oh, I see it's at 47%. But actually, at the moment I'd like it to be at 92%, and it'll move it there, and then it will continue adjusting uh throughout the the whole execution of that step of the recipe.
+
+[34:16] And then for certain recipes, like um, for example, we've got a a caramel recipe, there's a video of it on our website, where you want to caramelize the sugar, but then you want to bring the temperature down, add the cream and butter, and so it it knows that there are different target temperatures for different steps, and as you move through the recipe and and do the various steps, uh it will adjust the temperature. It's sort of like you never have to touch the knob, someone is there doing it for you. You're putting ingredients in, taking things out, and so on. When you when are you shipping these guys? October.
+
+[34:48] Yeah, yeah. I'd love to mess with one. Yeah, we'd we'd uh we'll we'll do our best to try and uh get you one uh a little sooner if we can. But uh yeah, some really cool techniques that that we are working on. Um so for example, you know, people I think a lot of times confuse precision temperature cooking with low temperature cooking because you know, people are familiar with or people who listen to this show certainly are are familiar with circulators and and what they do.
+
+[35:17] Um circulators uh obviously don't work particularly well over a hundred C because uh unless you use oil but they're no longer they're no longer spec'd out to use oil. Exactly. Whereas with MELD we can put a pot of oil on there. Um and you can do all kinds of things ranging from you know relatively low temperature stuff. So we've been playing around a little bit with with poaching things in oil around like 120 C um and then you can go obviously all the way up to you know frying things at 350, 375, 400 the classic everyone's always wanted to put a circulator for years can you put a circulator fry it's like well it'll the metal ones.
+
+[35:53] They'll handle the temperature but they're crap at frying because they they're they're even if they had the power they're not designed to have the recovery rate that a fryer needs. Could you could you tell this guy like could you is it in other words could you go from for minimize recovery time but still not completely blast out your oil? Like could you have like a middle I mean tube burner fryers are so freaking good because they have such a high surface area to heat out. This is why everyone at home like I'm sorry you're just not gonna have as good a fried stuff as someone who has a tube fryer. You're just not you know what I mean?
+
+[36:28] It's not gonna happen. You don't have a cold zone you don't have to you can do good fried stuff but you're not gonna have you're not gonna have all night good fry the way that you can in a tube fryer. But can you Yeah the the key for uh we we can do a really good job the key is not overloading and that that's the key in you know any frying application right if you if you have a two quart pot of oil and you dump in I don't know twenty chicken wings you know it's gonna be hard for even your fifteen thousand BTU burner on your stove at home to to recover from that quickly. Yeah um and even if you could even if you could you don't have the surface area of Panta oil to not locally so look my burners at home they're kind of stupid high you know they're they're way higher than they're supposed to be because the knucklehead that installed the stove didn't put the regulator on it right so you know I can I it looks like a jet engine when I turn on my burners which I can't for a lot of things. It is but like it's irritating because um I get a lot of flame out on the low end.
+
+[37:29] So it makes it hard to do kind of like the more delicate things. Not that I like to do delicate things does don't worry. But like I'm saying you know I have exactly the same thing on my oven at home which is which is great. It's like I have this vintage sort of 1990 oven that it's a double wall oven the top one is digital and the bottom one's analog I think because you know digital controls were too expensive then to actually put it on both ovens. And the analog one on the bottom the knob goes to 500 like most uh home oven knobs do but the little catch that makes it stop there is gone.
+
+[38:04] And you can just keep on turning it and so I can actually crank it up to around 700 for pizza. Take that safety you know what I did that I I shouldn't mention but I literally put a uh I literally put a thermostat bypass on my uh on my oven. So just like th thermostat thermostat but here was the rule right I had to make it such that like any normal so my last oven in my last place when you went there uh people like I don't want to cook in your oven, your oven's too complicated. I have to know how to program a Watlow P I D controller to do it. I'm like, so what?
+
+[38:38] Learn how to program a Watt learn. You know what I mean? Learn. You know, it's like you know, you know how to drive a car, can't dr you can't program my oven. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:46] That was my uh attitude. But this one, um, one of my things was A, it had to look like a normal oven, so it couldn't have wires and stuff sticking out of it fine. And it turns out I really didn't need a lot of control on the super high end for pizza because it just needs to be freaking hot, right? Exactly. So it's and then it's well, is it in there for a minute or a minute and a half?
+
+[39:05] Yeah, yeah. So so the simplest uh method was to hell with it and just literally put a uh a ball valve bypass onto onto the thermostat, and then when it's you know, when it's horizontal, I just tell people not to touch that. And it's a normal oven until I turn it into you know uh you know, flame on mode, and then it's then it's just you know, in real thermal runaway, not like the puny thermal runaway that you use on your 500 degree thermostat thermal runaway. I'm talking like thermal runaway. It doesn't actually run away, it doesn't melt itself into an ingot, but it gets close.
+
+[39:39] It's like, you know, up it's actually too hot, it gets up to 900. I have to throttle it. But anyway, back to the frying problem. So with my ridiculously high output range, right? I still can't get as good a frying uh in a normal pot situation because I just can't get the surface area contact with the oil in the pan to have it not abuse uh I mean I get slightly better results in a wok because I have a larger surface area for it to hit.
+
+[40:03] Of course, the oil degrades because it's against a uh a non-stainless walk because my walk's not stainless, so the oil degrades quickly there. You can't win, you know what I mean? But uh it would be interesting, I'm sure you could win better if you had uh a control app that was taking it up to the brink of being destroyed, and then but not like over. Because it in general, a hundred percent of the time when I watch cooks uh try to fry on a range, um they over they jack it too high to get the recovery rate which I understand but it always goes too far over the line and there's a kind of a porpoise effect with the temperature where it goes over and then under and I think people underestimate how much physical abuse the oil is taking during each cycle of overheating along with like salt and flour and burnt particles that are in that it's just absolutely and and and going back to what I was saying before that's why we we bias our algorithms to uh to avoid overshooting so we you know talking about about frying things all night so uh back in May sort of to thank uh a bunch of our Kickstarter supporters we had a a Cinco de Meld party and we were making tortilla chips uh on it on a burner very much like this but with butane uh all night long and and we're able to you know to keep that level of control and you know was was there some degradation in the oil you know three hours later yeah of course but um you know but but those chips were still good. Yeah and by the way fun fact about tortilla chips for those of you out there who make tortilla chips you should first of all you should make your own tortilla chips.
+
+[41:37] Absolutely and I'm not talking about I mean you should also learn to nixtamalize things but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean just go buy the crappy maseca not their crap but you know what I'm saying maseca fresh tortillas and fry them up because they're thicker and they're crunchier that's the way I like you know what I mean? And they're cheap as hell. Yeah. So cheap.
+
+[41:55] But um the true fact about tortillas is that uh they're they're gonna absorb a lot of oil. That's how they're supposed to work. That's what they do. Yeah. So you don't need to go French fry temperature when you're cooking a tortilla.
+
+[42:11] People overheat their oil when they're doing tortillas on a regular basis. In fact, next time you make tortillas, I want you to do this. I want you potato chips, the same thing. People go over temp on their potato chips. Because really, really you're when you're frying a French fry, you have a crust and an interior.
+
+[42:28] Right? Right. So you need to fry at a temperature that maintains the crust without shafting the interior. That's why it needs to be so high. Whereas in a tortilla chip or a potato chip, you're making a nice crunchy thing, but it is entirely the crust.
+
+[42:42] And you're what you're doing is a moisture removal operation. That's right. And so to do moisture removal, which is actually tough on oil, frankly, you know what I mean? Especially with cycling, thermal cycling. The next time you start tortilla chips, I want you to start your first batch in cold oil.
+
+[42:56] Just like you would for a potato chip batch. And and and you will not be able to tell the difference between that batch and the batch that started in hot oil. Why? Because tortilla chips are going to absorb oil, period. It it's going to happen.
+
+[43:11] It's going to go in all the spots where the water used to be that you're getting rid of. Right. And any sort of uh like intermediate absorption you might get when you throw a tortilla chip into locally cooled oil is going to be blasted out by the tremendous water evaporation you're going to get as soon as the local temperature of the oil around the tortilla chip gets above the boiling point of water. I guarantee it. Don't take my word for it.
+
+[43:34] Go cook some tortillas. You know what I mean? Yeah, the the uh the water evaporation thing is is really interesting point more generally, too. It's that, you know, as we've been been playing with this and and kind of understanding how it works and looking at the feedback loops. You know, a lot of uh a lot of cooking techniques are really all about uh the heat being sucked out by the evaporation of water, right?
+
+[43:58] So, you know, raising a gram of water one degree takes a calorie, but but uh boiling it off takes 540. So essentially when you're when you're cranking up the heat to maintain temperature, uh you are in almost all cases doing that to compensate for it being sucked out by evaporation. And understanding that then as things, you know, as you stop seeing the bubbling and and and all the steam coming off, uh, and then you watch as the knob is dialing back, it you know, it doesn't see the steam, but it but it's uh it's encountering the same thermodynamics, uh you realize, you know, that's what it's really all about for a lot of a lot of cooking techniques. And then the um, you know, controlling those and and do getting to the right temperature and recovering and so on. Um to your point about, you know, you you watch cooks do it at home and they porpoise, they go up and down.
+
+[44:56] Um we saw the exact same thing. So when we very first started down the road that that eventually became meld, the first thing we we looked at was, well, what if we could sense the temperature in a pot and pan in any of various ways and transmit that to an app, and then people could look and say, oh, it's too hot, it's too cold. And so we'd give people, you know, pretty good cooks the the simple task of bring this pot to this particular temperature. And they'd try and do it, and they'd go up and they'd overshoot and they'd dial it back and they'd undershoot and they'd and go back and forth. Twenty minutes later, they'd say, All you've done is you've told me I'm a terrible cook.
+
+[45:35] You haven't given me any tool to do anything about it. And that's where then the knob came. We said, okay, we've got to actually get the kind of feedback loop and get the kind of control uh that you get in Sous Vide and why is it that we're still out there, you know, following recipes that say put a pot on medium when that means, you know, what that means on your stove and what it means on mine could be two hundred degrees apart. Right. Well, though, yeah, those kind of recipes that say things like like the ones that are hilarious are the gas mark recipes where they actually whatever.
+
+[46:07] It's supposed to mean something in the UK. I don't know. But um, yeah, I mean, like you still they the the issue is is that recipes like that are still written, assuming that kind of we're all a community of cooks and we know what we're talking about. You know what I mean? Which is not always the case when someone's in fact I I mean I wish I had some time.
+
+[46:24] Well you know what, Jack, we're gonna have to do a catch-up episode. Yeah, let's do one. Because I need I have I didn't get to any of the written questions. I want to talk about breaking down chickens. Yes.
+
+[46:33] You know that I I was had someone over my age didn't know how to break down a chicken. We gotta go though. Uh all right, well listen, and I want to talk about scyth. I learned about scythes, you know that the tool scythe, like fear of the reaper. Cutting down wheat.
+
+[46:45] Yeah, they're freaking amazing. I looked at it, this is a joke. Who the heck wants a scythe? It's a pe I need to go get a uh uh you know a a weed whack or something. Amazing pieces of equipment, but I can't talk about it now.
+
+[46:56] Uh because we have to go. But uh thank you, Darren from Melk for coming in showing us this uh piece of equipment. Uh we'll do a catch-up episode of cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[47:20] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, this time exactly at freaking 12. How do you like that, Jack? Incredible. Yeah.
+
+[0:46] On the Heritage Radio Network. We could stay probably till what? Like 1250 till we get the evil stairs. Yeah, you got a full show today. Yeah.
+
+[0:53] Well, we need it because we have so many dang questions, and we haven't been able to establish a catch up episode. Although someday we should literally do an episode about the condiment ketchup. Yeah, so many of you were gonna sponsor. Ketchup sponsor was gonna sponsor. Yeah, but then we had all kinds of like turmoil about that.
+
+[1:09] Too fast turnover. Too fast a turnover. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Howdy. Hi.
+
+[1:17] And uh we got Jack in the engineering booth today. Who was that? I didn't see uh who the other person in the engineering booth was from the back of her. Wow. We'll have her say hi.
+
+[1:28] Dumping it right in. Hey Maggie. Hello. Yeah? Where where where are you uh where do you hail from, Maggie?
+
+[1:34] Brooklyn. Uh, Brooklyn. Are you hipster Brooklyn or old school Brooklyn? Like suburban mom Brooklyn or ex suburban mom Brooklyn. Wait, so you like you are an ex suburban mom?
+
+[1:46] No, my mom is. Oh, so you moved here from the suburbs. Yeah. Yeah, which ones? New Jersey.
+
+[1:53] Ah, the great state of New Jersey. The garden state. Like uh nice jersey or uh Turnpike jersey. Uh nice jersey. No offense to Turnpike Jersey.
+
+[1:59] Call your questions in too. Uh 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I have we have a plethora of questions to answer. Going to London, by the way, on uh on uh Monday, we have an event at Imbibe Live 2015 uh on Monday at the hotel dandelion, which is not spelled like we spell it.
+
+[2:25] Is that how the Brits spell dandelion, you think, Stuff? Maybe. It's like dandelion, right? Dandelion. Like a lion.
+
+[2:33] Wait. It's like a lion. We spell it like a lion. They spell it like Lyon. Yeah.
+
+[2:38] Like Dandy Lyon or something like this. Maybe that's maybe it's French. I thought it was like it sounded like you were saying dandeloin. Dandelion. Like a dandelion.
+
+[2:46] Oh, a dandelion. That would be kind of a gross thing for us to talk about here on the it would fit quite well with the uh with the vegetti monologues though that we went through. Yeah. Not to reopen old wounds. Okay.
+
+[2:59] Uh so uh let's what? What? Nothing. What? Nothing.
+
+[3:06] Yeah, nothing. No, no, no. By the way, uh, but before we start, even though I don't have time to talk about anything other than uh straight cooking issues, Nastasia and I are devotees of uh the illegal firework, and Nastasia just found out that she will have access. I didn't buy I I made the trek to the great state of New Hampshire where one can live free and die and purchase almost any kind of firework with the exception, Jack. No bottle rockets in New Hampshire.
+
+[3:30] Really? No. No. You can buy a you can buy uh uh 500 grams worth of uh black powder packed into tubes in a box that shoot 200 feet into the air and explode in in balls of fire. But a bottle rocket, that's dangerous, bruh.
+
+[3:45] Wow. Yeah. Like it makes no sense, right? Does not. It makes no makes no damn sense.
+
+[3:50] Like the rules are so crazy. They also don't allow this does make sense. They don't allow MA's and cherry bombs. They don't want little kids like blowing their fingers off, I guess. Bottle rockets, why?
+
+[3:58] Because kids shoot them at each other? I mean, that's what we used to do. I don't know. So Stas, uh, I found out though that uh that Pennsylvania, the rules in Pennsylvania are so by the way, for those of you that don't live near the New York area, like New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and I think Delaware are like the firm block of uh stick in the muds regarding uh fireworks and their enjoyment. Like there's just not available here.
+
+[4:23] Connecticut recently changed their laws, allowed fireworks again and then disallowed some again. So now in Connecticut, you can only buy like we you can't buy roaming candles, you can only buy fountains, those things on the ground that shoot up sparks, and you're like, man, I wish this would blow up in the air. Right, Stas, isn't that what you're thinking when you see it? Yeah. Man, I wish this would blow up inside the air.
+
+[4:44] What about Rhode Island? No, Rhode Island is part of the it's part of the uh like block of evil. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, imagine if Rhode Island Rhode Island, here's a suggestion to you, Rhode Island, our smallest state. Why don't you allow first of all you have like lots of great places to like fireworks in Rhode Island.
+
+[5:00] Why don't you make them legal in Rhode Island and then literally the entire New York, Connecticut metro area, instead of having to drive all the way to to New Hampshire, could go to the great state of Rhode Island to buy their fireworks. Anyway, Pennsylvania, Jack, you might find this enjoyable. The the place uh closest place is uh right near Port Jervis, New York. It's only an hour fifty outside of uh of New York or something like this. No, Rhode Island is the same as Connecticut.
+
+[5:26] Oh, you can buy the ground sparklers. Yeah, okay. But anyway, but my point is uh in Pennsylvania, it is illegal. If you are a Pennsylvania resident, it is illegal for you to buy the big bad aerial fireworks that we all want, right? However, if you show up in Pennsylvania and provide an out of state license, they will sell you anything.
+
+[5:47] Anything. Yeah. That's what's messed up. They don't care if it's legal in your state or not. I mean, how do they know where you're gonna light it?
+
+[5:57] But for some reason, if you show up with a Pennsylvania license, even though you swear on a on a stack of Bibles that you're gonna light these things off in a state where it's legal, right? If you are a Pennsylvania resident, you are, as we like to say, S O L. You can apply for a permit as a Pennsylvania resident to purchase them. It's uh it's laws are so so weird. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:16] I mean, I realize that fireworks are dangerous. Lots of things are dangerous. Fireworks are also, what's the word I'm looking for? Awesome. Awesome, yeah.
+
+[6:22] Yeah, awesome. I think that's the word else. Do you know that uh I looked it up? The National Fire, uh, the NFPA, National Fire Protection Agency or Prevention Agency. Anyway, the people who make the fire codes, they have a uh uh a whole campaign.
+
+[6:35] Uh, you know, ban commer ban consumer fireworks, right? Because people are injured and some people are killed every you know what the majority of uh the the one single thing that causes more injuries with fireworks than any other Jack? Any guesses? Um, like I don't know, drinking? No.
+
+[6:50] Well, yeah. No, uh sparklers. Oh, oh, I see. Sparkles. Really?
+
+[6:54] Yeah. How do you injure yourself on a sparkler? Well, like the classic case is uh some parent gave their three year old a sparkler and then turned away, turned away. She walked into their into their house, dropped it in a trash bucket, burned down the house, and killed somebody. Yeah.
+
+[7:09] There's a funny moment once where my girlfriend, we were at her country house, and she wanted to light some incense in the kitchen, or or in the living room rather, and she uh lit a uh sparkler instead. Wow, that that's different. They look kind of similar, I guess. They do, they look exactly the same. Yeah.
+
+[7:24] So you so like then do you have all sorts of evil ideas of pranking temples? Yes. Go to go to like a uh, you know, a temple and put a bunch of uh like what what? Supposed to be peaceful, calm, spark sparklers are nice. It's crazy that most fireworks are allowed in southern and midwest states.
+
+[7:43] You would think that's the same. No, no, no, no. It's it's it's every state but like like the New England stick in the mud states. And you know, New York and California. Mid-Alantic.
+
+[7:53] California allows some, I thought. No, they're the same as Connecticut and Rhode Island. First of all, like California, like irresponsible in a lot of places to light fireworks because of the immense like uh fire hazards because of the tremendous drought going on. I mean, a lot of it has to do with the fact that wherever there's a lot of people in close proximity, and the assumption is no one has any common sense, and you can hurt a lot more people when you're you know, I'm not saying fireworks should be legal in New York City. Which is even more dry, but I guess it's flat.
+
+[8:20] And like desert. Not that you don't have trees. Whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. Not gonna get into it. Like, you know, uh where am I where you know, where I used to go where my uh wife's family was living in in Arizona, I mean, what are you gonna burn down?
+
+[8:32] You know what I mean? Yeah. Burn, you know, burn some teddy bear choya down? Thank God. Those things are the devil.
+
+[8:38] You know what I mean? Anyway, Tom wrote in, no offense if you like teddy bear choy. Jeez. Uh like you know, someone's gonna be like, I like teddy bear choya. Well then go kick one and have it go through your freaking foot and like try to have fun, get all those spines out.
+
+[8:51] Nobody likes teddy bear choya. I don't know. You know what choyas are? They're little cactus, like really fuzzy ones that the teddy bears are the ones that are so insidious that the claim uh not true is that they kind of jump out and get at you because you brush up near it, they'll go through like leather shoes. These those spines will somehow work their way through.
+
+[9:09] It's you know how choy is spelled, right? It's spelled chala. Okay. Yeah, anyway. Uh Tom wrote in about apparently I missed the peas question.
+
+[9:17] So uh unfortunately you missed answering my question on centrifuging uh peas. He also had the hundred-hour oxtail question where the uh bag was inflating. I haven't figured out so the the thing was he was cooking the the oxtails at a fairly high temperature, high enough to kill bacteria for like a hundred hours, and the bags blew up kind of like one day into the process. So but uh what I don't recall, you should write back. I don't know whether the it's weird when bags, when sous vide bags blow up way down line in the process.
+
+[9:42] So it could be a couple of things going on. Like one, if you like if there's bones in this in the thing or uncooked veg, like air could be coming out of that over time and inflating, but usually that's gonna happen relatively early in the process, like a couple of hours in, not like you know, 20 or 30 hours in. It's also, I guess, possible that like some thermophilic thermophilic bacteria are surviving and blowing up, but I don't know. I'm gonna have to do more research on uh thermophilic uh uh bacteria. For teddy bear choya, I got an actual teddy bear sitting at a Shabbat with a hollow bread.
+
+[10:11] You wrote teddy bear hala? You wrote teddy bear hala. No, I got S-C-O-L-L-A. S-C S-A-S-I-S-C-I-A-S I mean sorry, C-H-O-L-L-A. Not well though, teddy bear hala is my new imagine if you wanted a teddy bear hala and someone sent you a teddy bear choya and you opened up the package and got all those spines embedded in your like face somehow, like it came off into your face.
+
+[10:35] That'd be a complete nightmare. Uh second question I had on centrifugees. Um via my university. I had the fortune of using a centrifuge to make some pea butter. I used fresh peas and didn't get them to blend too thoroughly.
+
+[10:44] I assumed two hours at 16 uh thousand and a half G's should be able to puree the peas, but unfortunately that didn't change their integrity. Um blending should have been done better, but is there something else I should have taken into account? The recipe calls for frozen peas, which might have destroyed the cell structure and allowed better blending, perhaps. Uh what is worse is that one of the containers broke mid uh midway through centrifuging, destroying the goodwill on their side, forever using the centrifuge again, and I'll have to look for another place. Would this be caused because I used something solid, uh E.G.
+
+[11:11] peas instead of the usual liquid, or is this just wear and tear and unfortunate to happen uh with me. Yeah, you just got some bad luck. The other thing that can happen is um if uh if you use the wrong bottles, um if you use a flat bottom bottle that's not meant to go into centrifuge, or you use a sharp conical bottle and you put it into a round bottomed uh rotor, uh you know, any time you have to deform the bottom of it, like you want the bottle shape to match the uh shape of the bottom of the rotor. So if you don't do that, then yeah, it could be your fault for using the wrong uh you know, flask or vial, but presumably they gave it to you, right? So, or maybe you bought it.
+
+[11:48] I don't know. The other thing is you could use one with the wrong composition, but again, uh the fact that it's a solid shouldn't uh matter um because you know the bottle is supposed to get smashed against the bottom of the rotor and stay that way for the rest of the thing. But they do have wear and tear and they do eventually break. So I don't know, but you know, uh that I don't know. Regarding uh uh the other problem you had of it not working, sixteen thousand G's, seventeen thousand G's is not nearly, not nearly, not even close to being enough G's to actually rupture the cell structure of uh, you know, or to break apart uh the you know the plant structure of a uh of peas.
+
+[12:25] Not enough at all. You need to blend it a lot better. I would use frozen peas, as they said, or freeze your fresh peas, which is going to shatter some of the cell structure due to um the action of the ice crystals. And in fact, uh, you know, you might uh I've done even for some things repeat freeze thaw cycles. Um because each time you freeze and thaw it, you destroy the structure a little more.
+
+[12:44] Make sure you blend the hell out. Remember, like 20,000 G's mean well, 4,000, 5,000 G's isn't even enough to pop air bubbles, you know what I mean, uh on the surface of some center fusing stuff. 20,000 G's i is is not even enough to clarify lime juice on its own. So it's not even enough to to pull cloudiness out of lime juice, right? You need like 27, man, 20, 27,000 G's to do that, and that doesn't even pull everything else down.
+
+[13:10] So 16,000 G's seems like a lot, but in fact is not enough to uh completely obliterate the structure. And remember, if you're actually talking about really obliterating cellular structure, they go to many, many, many higher uh higher G's than that. I would have guessed that like 50,000 G's would be enough to do what you want, but you know, um I don't know. Because uh it's a guess. But again, I I wouldn't say I would just say that you you know your solution would be better blending.
+
+[13:36] Uh Alex wrote in uh from Toronto regarding carrots. I have it, dear Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. I have a question about carrots. Very see, I like that. Someone says right about what it's about.
+
+[13:46] Carrots. In a recent Cooks Illustrated, I haven't read this one, you know, I I was subscriber for like decades. I don't know somehow like it was always given to me as a gift. I don't get it anymore. You ever happen?
+
+[13:55] Like someone's like, I'm just not gonna give this to him as a gift anymore. And then it just disappears. Does that happen to you on magazines? New Yorker. Mm-hmm.
+
+[14:00] Do you buy it now? No, I make somebody else get it for me. Why don't you oh, but you could join NPR and get it. But you don't want to join NPR. You just want someone to get it for you for a gift.
+
+[14:09] Well, anyone out there who likes Nastasia, just get her a gift. No, my sister's already taking care of it. Oh, she did, yeah. So you're you're a covered in the future. It's so weird.
+
+[14:17] Like, like so many things like that other people like, you hate. How is it that you like the New Yorker? I don't know. Is it because you liked it before you knew other people liked it? Maybe.
+
+[14:26] Maybe. Yeah? Yeah. Very unusual for you to like something that's well liked. S NL.
+
+[14:32] Yeah, I guess that's true. Especially both of those things are kind of New York. Well, SNL is not New York centered. I mean, it happens to be here, but it's not like a New York thing. But the new you hate almost anything associated with New York that's popular.
+
+[14:42] Mm-hmm. Because you have to look at the people around you every day that like it. Yeah, but I can do I can read the New Yorker and watch SNL by myself. What happens when you're on the subway and you see someone reading the New Yorker? You're like, oh, don't ruin it for me.
+
+[14:54] Is that what happened? Yeah? Uh in a recent Cooks Illustrated, I think it was three or four issues ago, they published a recipe for braised carrots that involved you like the word braising? Mm-hmm. Neutral?
+
+[15:06] Neutral embracing? Okay. Uh braised carrots that involved par cooking them at a low temperature, then finishing them in a hot pan. They say that holding the carrots between 120 and 160 will induce enzymatic activity that will firm up the structure of the carrot. They call it persistent firmness, and they exploit it in this recipe so that even when the carrots are subsequently overcooked in the pan, they still come out with some texture.
+
+[15:26] I have tried this using my circulator, and as far as I can tell, it does make a difference, making for a more meaty texture in the final product. Is this a known thing? If so, will it work with other vegetables, presumably at other temperatures? Are you aware of any easily accessible resources that could tell me more? Yes, it does work uh on other things.
+
+[15:40] Uh oh, also I'd like to say I was able to crush the saltine challenge with 10 saltines, not six. No, you're not going to be able to do that No, this is Alex from Tomorrow. I just being like, you know, I figured like he's gotta feel pretty good about that. So I was giving him some. And a minute?
+
+[15:55] He was able to eat ten saltines in one minute. That's why I figured you have to use a announcer voice for it. Whoa, it's a call out, Alex. It's a call out. Film yourself, pounding the tent.
+
+[16:05] And the question is, I don't understand like what version of uh the saltine challenge gets you to ten. Unless you did two, two, two, but five twos is a lot harder than my guess four, four, and three. I mean, four, four, and two. Four, four, and two, right? Four cracker, four.
+
+[16:22] Because the only way to really challenge it is to do multiple crackers at once. So much. Has Jack Jack, have you done the saltine challenge? No, but I'm going to. Of course you are.
+
+[16:29] Yeah. But you gotta film it. I will. It's not real. I think I can crush 10.
+
+[16:34] No, you can't. The most I've seen, I think the most I've seen is either 10 or 12 is the most I've seen. Well, I guess 60 seconds is a short amount of time. The guy I think the guy the most I've ever seen is 12, and he did 444. That sounds like what my strategy would be.
+
+[16:48] Jack, uh you must show an open mouth before the end of the open mouth. Yeah. I'll have it by next week. The rules are there can be like particulate matter jammed into your molars, but there can't be like a bunch of stuff rolling around on the inside of your mouth and definitely. You can't shove a whole cracker in the side of your face.
+
+[17:08] No, but like if it's like plus you're gonna look like a chipmunk. I'll see it. No chipmunking. No chipmunking. Yeah, although I enjoy the I enjoy this, like this like cheating strategy.
+
+[17:18] Uh you know, Yale had a a drinking game, and uh I used to kind of use the the we I used you can't chipmunk on that either, although people tried. Anyways. I have a collar, by the way. Okay, what's it? Well, let me finish.
+
+[17:32] Uh yes, yes, call it. Wait, but hold on a second. Rather than trying to generate more saliva, I just forced down the dry crumbs. It hurt, but it worked, and I won the bet. Yours, Alex from Toronto.
+
+[17:41] See, swallow through the pain is another interesting strategy. It might work well for me. Uh all right, so I'm gonna take this collar and then I'm gonna get back to the informatic. Well, what did you what did you get? I got them all in but not swallowed.
+
+[17:56] How many? I'm not gonna get into that. Okay. She wasn't able to make the six. Anyway, call her, you're on the air.
+
+[18:03] Hey, this is uh Bradley from San Francisco, and uh I wanted to call back. Uh you given me uh some advice on uh uh meat curing chamber and uh coffee uh Zapaka uh a couple months ago. Oh yeah, it's a copy, yeah. And uh both both turned out really well and uh the advice is super helpful. Um the one thing that um so when we when we were making the the coffee drinks, instead of using cream, um I had some non dairy friends.
+
+[18:30] Um and we had some almond milk horchata that was like Khalifa Farms almond milk marchata, and so we substituted that and people actually preferred the almond milk horchata version of the cafe toba instead. Um but it was it was a huge success. So I wanted to thank you. Do you think that's a re you think that's a a regional thing, or do you think that they did they actually prefer the taste or you think that's a San Francisco thing? No, no, I I preferred the taste.
+
+[18:57] Like it it um it added kind of like a a nice like cinnamony note to the the coffee thing. Um which was which which was really nice. Um and uh it's it I I don't think it was a regional thing, um, because it was like the overwhelming choice. But what if you had added cinnamon to the cream? Do you think that would have changed?
+
+[19:22] Right. That are younger people aren't actually from San Francisco. So you think it was just the spiciness of it though? Like do you think adding cinnamon to the recipe in general would uh make it better or no? Um maybe.
+
+[19:32] Um I I mean because I I think that um we didn't I I I didn't try it, but um, you know, it uh I think if you have like a latte and you add s you know cinnamon on the top, it's like a nice flavor to it. So uh but uh but I I think that that was like the the the kind of flavor that came through with the the orchata that um really worked well. That's right. Um and uh so um I'm planning a um a an all oval dinner party and I I had a question because in the past you talked about feeding clams um you know to kind of change their flavor. And I I'd read that you can feed mealworms in all in order to kind of like enhance their flavor before doing it.
+
+[20:16] And I wanted to do like a mealworm toffee for for dessert. I was wondering if you'd had any experience with that. Well, I've never prepared mealworms. Let me ask you. Oh, by the way, uh you know the old legend that mealworms can uh eat their way out from the insides of uh lizards uh and stuff that you feed them to.
+
+[20:34] You know that that you know that old legend, right? Uh I I I mean I've worked in a pet I could my only like you know, I've worked in a pet shop and that's never happened to any of the lizards that I've fed mealworms to. Yeah, I know, but you're familiar with the urban lead. It's been proven false, by the way. Like uh in the book in the book uh by Mary Roach uh Gulp, she like goes with some scientists, I think, and they disprove it.
+
+[20:56] So it it doesn't happen. Although I personally thought it happened to me when I was a kid, it's just that my lizard happened to die. I happen to be feeding a meal worms and something happened to eat its eye, but they're like, you know, not related as it happens. Right. But uh, but to go back to just straight meal worms.
+
+[21:11] So in other words, no one should worry that in eating a a meal worm that it's going to somehow burrow out through their body because uh it just it it doesn't actually happen. This is not a thing that actually happens. All right. Yeah, I mean well the the the idea that I had was I was going to cook them, um, add them to a toffee and then kind of break it up and then put it at the bottom of panna cotta, so it gives it like a little bit of crunch um when it when it gets unmolded. Um and I wanted I I had heard that you could do it with like you like cinnamon was like something that like you could feed them and then you purge them for a couple days and then cook them.
+
+[21:47] Well I see that's the thing. If you're gonna purge them, if you're gonna purge them, then like I don't know whether or not like they're actually gonna get the I mean I unless you're just ta I mean maybe they get it on the outside of them, I don't know, but are they washed? Is the idea that you can feed them, purge them, then wash them and they still have the flavor? I mean it's possible. At that point you fry them.
+
+[22:08] But I mean in other words, but they're never they're they're fried basically live without going through a rinse. So the question then my mind is is there cinnamon on the outside of these guys, or do they actually flavor themselves from the inside out? Remember, like my whole fascination with this stretches back to uh the Henry Winkler movie uh night shift, right? Where uh you know, one of the characters well, who is in that movie? Look that up, Stas.
+
+[22:32] One of the characters in that movie used to always carry a tape recorder with them and be like note to self, one of which was note to self, feed the mayonnaise to the tuna before you kill it, right? Before it so that it makes itself into tuna salad. So I've had this idea in my head since I was like a little kid. Um but with mealworms, I mean, you'd have to like try it because i in any event it makes a great story, right? Uh but um the other thing is if you're feeding it only food grade stuff, is there a need to purge it?
+
+[23:00] Um I mean, I I I don't know. Like what what I'd seen on the internet was mostly, you know, if if it was like a solid thing that had you know, that didn't have too much water, if you fed it to them for a couple of days before, it would they would your body would taste slightly like that. Yeah. Similar to your clams. Yeah, the the other one is obviously famous is the idea of feeding snails uh specifically things like rosemary for use in uh paella.
+
+[23:32] I've tried it on three separate occasions, all miserable failures. It left my my bathroom stinking like dead snail and rotting rosemary. Uh so I've never had any luck with snails. But I would give it a shot and see what happens. I would try some I would try I would just for your own for giggles, I would I would uh try some purged.
+
+[23:55] I would try some unpurged, right? And I would also uh take some and rinse them off in water and pat them dry before you fry them to see whether or not it's really just cinnamon that you fed them that sticks to the outside of their bodies that's that's doing it. You know what I mean? But in any event, like if the cinnamon flavor comes through, it it would be a uh it's a good it's a good story. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:16] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, uh hopefully mealworms in general are just like a good, like talk about dessert kind of thing. So you know what's interesting? Nastasia didn't give you the scrunch up face on uh on the mealworms, but she did give you the scrunch up face on the word ofal.
+
+[24:35] Which isn't to say that she doesn't like the meats. She just hates that word. Ofel. Yeah. Right, stuff?
+
+[24:41] You you know that, you know, I know Nasasha hates hipsters, but what is the group of people that hates things because other people like them? Hipsters. Whoa. What are you? True story.
+
+[24:54] Wow. That's like that's like so much. That's like the nuclear microphone. Yeah, boom. All right.
+
+[25:00] Well, get loving it. Let us know how it works out. Did you want to know about Night Shift? Uh, yes, tell me about Night Shift and then we'll You want to take a commercial break after Night Shift? Yeah.
+
+[25:08] All right, we'll take we'll we'll talk about Night Shift and then we'll go to commercial. Michael Keaton. I love Michael. It looks like a romantic comedy, is it? I don't know.
+
+[25:16] I don't know. I will purchase it with my corporate card. All right, and we'll come right back with cooking issues. Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins.
+
+[25:35] I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn. Red Wattle. Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have.
+
+[25:50] And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity.
+
+[26:18] The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information.
+
+[26:46] And welcome back. Hey, you know what, Jack? The one line in that that kind of creeps us out a little bit, Stas and I were talking during the break. Sound genetics. Why?
+
+[26:55] That's creepy. It sounds sounds eugenic, like it sounds crazy. I mean, I I know in the in the sense of animal breeding, it doesn't play that way, but like whenever I hear sound genetics, I'm like, you know. I think about like the genetics of sound. Ooh.
+
+[27:09] You know. That's what that's a very Jackie Molecule statement. The genetics of sound. By the way, speaking of Jackie Molecules, I have to interject with this. So we uh as a Kickstarter reward, I was uh tasked to make three ringtones that we were gonna send out to the people who donated to the Kickstarter, and we got a whole bunch of people right in saying they wanted a Jackie Molecules ring tone.
+
+[27:32] Do we have one? So we do. Hold on. I'm gonna I'm gonna find it. That's not it.
+
+[27:36] Let's see. I'm just gonna put it up to the mic and maybe that'll work. Let's see. Well, actually, I can plug it right in. There we go.
+
+[27:41] So here we go. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Ringtone. Jackie Molecules. Oh.
+
+[27:50] Jackie Molecules. Wait. Jackie Molecules. That's a real thing. Wow.
+
+[28:06] I'm gonna put that on put that on my phone. Yeah, I'll send it to you. Yeah, send it to me. And Stephanie. How much is it if people want to purchase it?
+
+[28:13] Oh, it's it's free if you donate it to Kickstarter. Wait, wait, one more thing. And that's that's you at the end. That's so good. Oh my gosh.
+
+[28:24] Oh my gosh. All right. So for those of you that remember before the commercial break, we were talking about Alex's question on carrots and persistent firming. Yes, the answer is yes. It's a known uh fact.
+
+[28:35] The enzyme that we're talking about is a pectin, a methyl esterase. And so the reason you have to raise uh the temperature is you ha and there's numerous studies on different uh veg on what temperatures to to use. And you gotta remember, I think it was a peckin' pectin methylesterase trick that Jeffrey Steingarten was using to do the firming of uh potatoes in his very famous and very very influential uh article on uh Mash Taters uh in his uh first book, uh The Man Who Ate Everything, um, which I encourage if you if you don't own that book, like you kind of need to go out and buy it. Like it's right now, just go on Amazon and and Amazon Prime that book and read it. And if you've never read it before, if it doesn't change kind of the way you look at food writing and food, then you I don't know.
+
+[29:23] I mean the fact of the matter is is that I can't erase like that whole the whole dialogue of how he works from my head. Important book, uh super important book, and I think has uh really changed the way like a lot of food writers have approached uh what they do. Anyways, um so yeah, so I think that the potato trick is a pectin methyl esterase trick. Uh we've tried it with uh with other things as well. There's also other enzymes that you can activate.
+
+[29:46] The trick is the reason you need the elevated temperature is you need a temperature that's going to not denature the enzyme but disrupt the cell structure enough that the enzyme is liberated and can do its business. And so that's typically uh what's happening, and uh there have been studies on various different veggies at various different temperatures uh to kind of figure out uh where where to hit them and how to treat them for how long. Uh also you can enhance this effect if you dope calcium into the water. I don't know if uh Cook's Illustrator did that, but adding calcium to the water while you're working can also uh increase uh the amount of uh firming you get out of it, but I don't know if they did that. Anyways, um so there you have it, right?
+
+[30:24] Seth wrote in. Uh good afternoon. My name is Seth Warshaw. I own a restaurant. Do you want to get this caller quickly before that?
+
+[30:32] Sure. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, uh got a question about ice cream. I am um kind of accused of being a freak about ice cream and well, just a freak in general, anyway. Nice.
+
+[30:42] Um so and I love the taste of ice cream without egg, but it's tough to get the texture right. Yep. So the the question is kind of twofold. One, is there any way to dope it up with any kind of hydrocolloid or anything crazy like that? Or two, is it am I better off spending some money on a uh you know a liquid nitrogen doer or trying to get a a really nice um ice cream machine that can get the batch times down under 10 minutes or even 15.
+
+[31:15] What's your what okay? A bunch of questions. Where did you grow up? Pardon me? What what part of the what part you sound American?
+
+[31:23] What part of the country did you grow up in? Oh, um uh bright and sunny southern California. Okay. Because like Philly people and people on the East Coast like are very familiar with Aeglis ice cream, right? The whole style of Aegless ice cream in the US is known as Philly style ice cream, right?
+
+[31:38] So there's a long rich history. But for those who grew up around here, you know that you know the the kind of classic Philly style ice cream used to be Briars, right? And that it didn't contain uh eggs. It also used to contain no stabilizers, and that's why also all of us know that if you get Briars when it's incredibly fresh, it's it was good, but it never as smooth and creamy as like you know uh an egg style, uh you know, like uh French vanilla style, but good, but that it goes icy really quickly, right? Because it's not stabilized and it doesn't have uh the eggs in it.
+
+[32:14] Briars has since relented and added a bunch of stabilizers to their ice cream, I guess because they realized that you know less and fewer and fewer people uh kind of you know were devotees of that style or kind of understood like what that style was supposed to be. Uh so that's it. What style of ice cream machine do you use? Uh well, right now I just have the cheapy hundred dollar freeze the canister and and churn it. So salt and oh, freeze the canister, okay.
+
+[32:41] Yeah, yeah. And and the batch times were between twenty and thirty minutes in the low twenties. And I'm looking at ice cream machines that are the the self-refrigerating kind. Yep. But the batch time still seem to be up near twenty minutes until you get into something that's you know in the thousands of dollars range.
+
+[32:59] Right, correct. Okay, I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain and I don't how much of this stuff do you want to make? Is this like a family outing thing, or do you want to do this commercial? You want to do this for family, right? Well, just well, for me.
+
+[33:10] Yeah. So I recommend uh I recommend uh good old fashioned salt and ice. I would buy the motorized one. You don't need to buy the expensive White Mountain one. And in fact, the best ice cream that I have ever personally made outside of using liquid nitrogen or a Carpagani has been with a $2 thrift store rival brand ice cream, which by the way, they're owned by the same people as own White Mountain, but rival brand uh ice cream maker with a motor on it that used uh salt uh and ice.
+
+[33:42] And um I mean, I guess it depends on uh which model you get. Like the the trick with the with those style of ice cream machines is uh you can decrease the batch time uh by just adding more adding more uh salt, right? And at a certain point, the makers tell you not to do it because they worry that you're not gonna be able to scrape the sides off enough. But I found that at least on my rival, I could jam it pretty hard and get like, you know, 12 minute batch times on it and get incredibly textured ice creams using just milk, cream, sugar, vanilla, and salt without doing anything else. Now, it doesn't store as well, right?
+
+[34:20] Um, and I would also jack the cream levels to the point where it almost buttered out on me because that's gonna also provide some textural advantages. The problem there is it's really good when it's soft, but when it hardens, it gets a little bit of a buttery, uh buttery texture, which some people find off putting in an ice cream, right? So I I mean I I like this good old-fashioned salt salt and ice uh thing. They they can make a much larger quantity than those self-freezing things can. Uh and in general, they're uh higher, higher quality product.
+
+[34:50] Um and the other good thing about it is that if you don't want to store your ice cream, you after you're done churning, you pull the motor off and you just add a boat ton of salt to the outside, drop a towel over it and let it cure inside of its own container. You know what I mean? Without unpacking, without agitating, without going back in your freezer. So you don't need to worry about freezer space while you're, you know, while it's curing up while you're cooking the rest of dinner. A lot of advantages.
+
+[35:13] It doesn't keep so well, uh, but there's a lot of advantages. Now, um, back to the other side. Let's let's go to the stabilization side. On the stabilization side on it, there are a boat ton of things you can add uh to uh to an ice cream like this um that uh that are not, you know, that that make it creamier. For instance, gel-an.
+
+[35:36] If you were to but it's a little bit more of a pain in the butt. You could take just the milk. I wouldn't do it to the cream, I would take uh just the milk and make uh a gel-an fluid gel with it, right? Then blend it and then add in your cream, blend it down with the the vanilla, and when you freeze that sucker, it will be super duper smooth. Uh you can go look at my stretchy on my stretchy ice cream.
+
+[35:58] I have a stretchy ice cream post on uh on uh that's also fryable and and you can light it on fire on uh the cooking issues blog that apparently you could still search for. Uh I would omit the guar, just use the gel and I would ignore my instructions to jack the uh gel. I mean you can jack the gel an a little bit, but you don't need to jack it as much as I said at the end of the uh end of that article because I was just guessing. In fact, you don't need to jack it that much. But that makes a supremely smooth ice cream with no eggs in it.
+
+[36:27] But really, any sort of stabilizer is gonna is gonna help you out, like uh LBG or or s something like this is gonna is gonna stabilize a carragaenin, like adding some carrageen into it will uh like uh I would probably I think most people use iota in small amounts for this is gonna help really smooth it out for you, which is what you want. You don't want to add so much of any of those things that it gets gummy, though, right? That's the that's the the the kind of uh the downside of it. Another thing is do you don't want eggs because you just don't like the flavor of cooked eggs? Or you just don't want the eggs.
+
+[36:58] I don't know what it is, but anytime I add any number of eggs, it just changes the flavor. And I don't know what it is. Right. Do you want to circle? Do you want a circulator?
+
+[37:10] Yes. Okay. Uh uh, here's a little trick. Sam Mason Sam Mason didn't used to like his ice creams to taste eggy, but he loved the texture that he got from eggs. And so what he would do is he would put the egg yolks in uh in a bag and uh pasteurize them uh at a low temperature, like uh you could do it at 60, right?
+
+[37:31] Uh uh Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit, uh for just long enough to pasteurize out the egg yolks, which is not that long really. Uh, and then uh and then stir those in. And then that actually, it's easy then to chill those eggs, and then you can stir those into your mix, and you're not gonna get the the you know, blend them in, and you're not gonna get that uh cooked egg, that egginess that you get from the eggs. And that's what he used to do. And uh ain't nobody ever argued with Sam Mason's ice cream.
+
+[37:59] Interesting. Yeah. I will have to try that. Yeah, so there's a battery of things you can you can try. Let us know how it works.
+
+[38:05] Cool. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, now uh wait. So we were talking about about Seth, who owns a restaurant in Teaneck, New Jersey.
+
+[38:14] You ever been to Teen X? I used to live right next to Teen Egg. Yeah, Teen Egg. Uh a steakhouse. Um we are attempting to introduce modernist techniques into our kitchen.
+
+[38:24] Some of our ideas have been successful, and others not so much. Our biggest hurdle is that we are a kosher establishment which precludes us from using many ingredients. Most recently, we purchased Activa T I, which does not have sodium caseinate. So Activa T I, by the way, for those of you that you know aren't hip to this, Activa is uh is the brand name of transglutaminase, aka meat glue that we use to uh you know bond different uh proteins, usually meats together. Now the it's an enzyme, naturally occurring enzyme, it's not some sort of horrific monster thing, and you know, I can get into lots of discussions about how awesome it is and how it's been maligned by specifically a couple of uh fake news outlets in Australia, but it don't have time.
+
+[39:06] So uh what's added to the enzyme is some bulking agent and also a helper protein. Now the uh the most commonly used helper protein is casein. It's obviously it's not kosher because it's derived from milk and you're gluing meat with milk. Clearly, not kosher. Uh so that's the problem that we're uh dealing with.
+
+[39:23] Okay. Activa Ti, which is uh the one that they're getting, is uh pure, in other words, it doesn't have any uh helper protein in it. Okay, there we go. Um recently we purchased Activa TI, which does not have the sodium caseinate component, and therefore the bindings does not have the binding strength. The binding strength is much reduced.
+
+[39:41] I did find a product online called Kavamax. CavaMax, is sound good? Sounds like a car website or a wine website for Kava. Anyway, uh KavaMax, which they claim is a sodium caseinate substitute. As I understand it, sodium caseinate is emulsifier, uh, which is what Kavamax is as well.
+
+[39:58] Uh, my question is can I use Kavamax instead of the sodium caseinate to add to Activa and get the desired result of being able to glue our meat together? Additionally, how would I introduce the KavaMax into the mix? If this idea is not going to work, is there some other idea that you could point me to? I hope this email finds you well. Uh thank you, Seth.
+
+[40:14] Yes, it finds us well. Uh look, if it's meant to replace an emulsifier, then I would not use it as a replacement. Uh what I would do is get kosher gelatin. Uh and just mix the kosher gelatin in with the activa because it's gonna provide a different kind, but a very fast bond strength. So Activa G S, uh, which is not kosher because I don't use kosher gelatin.
+
+[40:35] Activa GS is um is uh the greatest strength, or is it GB? GB, great uh one of those two. Anyway, both of those actually have gelatin in them. One of them is also has phosphates to keep it uh stable at temperature. But if you mix uh gelatin in, you should be fine.
+
+[40:52] So what I would do, um, I don't know if you have to pre-functionalize the gelatin into like a uh a slurry and then paint it and then sprinkle the meat glue on or whether it'll work just straight sprinkled. But try it both ways. But I would do gelatin. That's what I would do. Uh Ethan Kushner writes in about uh reverse agar uh or reverse uh alginate, I guess, and uh lentils.
+
+[41:16] Uh a big hello to the folks at Cooking Issues. Called in late last week, but you were tasting ants at the time, so we're on old questions, huh? Uh I'm headed into New York right now, so I thought I'd email in. Just thought you guys might want to post uh the questions uh on the heritage radio page or somewhere else very obvious. What do you think, Jack?
+
+[41:31] Should we post the questions email on the on our page? Uh it's there on the about us. We have a new website coming too, so make it prominent. My brother is planning on getting engaged in the next couple of weeks. We probably missed it.
+
+[41:44] Chumps. Uh and wants to do a sick meal for his special lady friend before popping the question. Apparently she loves bubble tea, which I know traditionally uses tapioca starch balls. Tapioca starch balls. What?
+
+[41:58] Stas said something. I must have said something that they riled her up, but I don't know what it is. Oh, that's good. That's ask you that. Uh, but from his description, the tea she gets in New York, it sounds like they use a reverse alginate flavor pearl, pearl and quotes.
+
+[42:10] Apparently, it pops it stas, you're gonna get it. It pops and leaks peach juice. I don't like the balls. But what about the word what about leaks peach juice? I don't like anything about them.
+
+[42:14] No. It's like what about the idea of something leaking? Not good. Not good? Leaking?
+
+[42:26] Okay. This sounds like a bit much uh out of some random eatery, but maybe they buy them pre-made. Either way, how would I make this? I've looked at Chef Steps and thought about using uh their recipe for reverse uh spherification. Any tips on this?
+
+[42:39] When using fruit juices, do I have to manage the pH? What's the deal with SHMP, aka shimp? Uh and I know this is a loaded question. Any tips on macaroons? Well, listen, uh oh my god, I forgot the uh the her website just went out of my head.
+
+[42:53] There's a website you need to read on macaroons. I'll try to remember, and if I can't remember, I'll get it uh next week. Um, okay. I've also been trying to make traditionally coagni coagulated lentil tofu. I soaked the lentils for two days, blenderized it, boiled it for a couple minutes, strained it, heated it to 160 Fahrenheit, and added one T uh tablespoon of Epsom salts.
+
+[43:11] Far uh, far so far just giant pots of goo. Any thoughts? Um by the way, Ethan also thanks us on our randomness and and thanks you, Nastasia, for your ambivalence. Adds great balance to the show, he says. All right, so let's hit these questions one by one.
+
+[43:28] On the reverse spherification, sodium hexametaphosphate, aka by the way, here's how reverse spurification works. Normally when you're spherifying uh using alginate to spherify stuff, you put uh your flavor into you add alginate, you know, sodium alginate, which is a hydrocolloid, to your flavor. You drop that flavor into a calcium bath, uh calcium lactate gluconate, it's the least flavorful, but calcium lactate is the easiest and cheapest to get, but it tastes terrible, so you have to rinse it off. Okay. So you drop it in, and instantly uh the uh alginate um uh cross lengths, and you get this uh you get this firm shell around your liquid, and then you pull it out, you rinse off the calcium, and you serve these little uh pearls.
+
+[44:06] Problem. One two several problems. One, uh you can't use a um uh fluid to do this, it's very low in pH. The reason is is that uh it'll pre-gel ruin the alginate, like acidic things ruin the alginate. So that's one thing.
+
+[44:20] That's why that's one of the problems you have. Another problem is that the reaction keeps happening and you keep on gelling all the way through, and eventually you get solid balls and they're gross because they have no flavor. Alginate's a flavor thief and also has very bad texture. Okay. So that's two problems.
+
+[44:34] So solution solution, one of the solutions is problems to use what's called reverse verification. In reverse verification, what you do is you make a neutral, usually alginate bath. You can make an alginate bath that has flavor, but usually it's a neutral alginate bath, and then you drop calcium-laden uh product you know, juices into it, and you get a membrane of alginate around your flavorful products. Okay, here are the and the good news is is that the product you're using can be as acidic as you want. I've done almost straight lemon juice.
+
+[45:04] It doesn't matter because uh, you know, the alginate doesn't, it's not gonna hurt or pre-gel because the alginate's not contained in the flavorful stuff, so it doesn't matter. That's the good news. Uh here's what you need to keep in mind. The sodium hexametaphosphate is a as a sequestrant. It's gonna get rid of excess calcium.
+
+[45:22] So what you want to do is add some sodium hexametophosphate, aka shimp, uh, to your alginate bath to preserve it so that it doesn't go bad while you're repeatedly dropping uh calcium stuff, uh I mean when you're dropping calcium stuff into it, and also in case there's free calcium ions in your uh tap water, right? So that's what the sodium head mexif head uh hexametophosphate is for. Uh you're gonna want to make sure that the alginate bath that you use is as thin as you can make it and still get good um and still get good uh film around the outside. And this is why you want to use a very strong alginate, uh, because uh because a strong alginate is going to get a uh uh a greater kind of bond strength even when it's a little bit thinned out. The reason is is that you need to drop your liquid into it and it needs to drop into it.
+
+[46:09] So if you have a very thick alginate, it's just gonna pancake on top, and you're not gonna get uh uh decent uh reverse uh spherification. Now you can get around that by injecting it into the thing, but that's it's all a pain in the butt. What you want is to be able to make a nice good drop, unless you're doing larger spoon, in which case. Another way to do it, if you're making larger pearls, like larger tapioca pearls, is you can literally freeze balls of flavor with calcium, and then they can be any thickness you want, because it doesn't matter, and then you can kind of throw them into the alginate and then pull them out and then uh rinse them off. Anyways, so another thing you want to make sure is that you get all the air out of the alginate bath, otherwise there'll be air on the top, and again you'll just get stuff pancaking when it hits the uh air thing, and plus there'll be bubbles and it'll be a nightmare.
+
+[46:50] Get rid of the air. Um another thing is if you're gonna drop liquid uh and you're not gonna pre-freeze it, you should thicken the juice. I you know, you usually use something like something like a xanthan or something there to keep it together and to thicken it so that it can drop in. Uh, it helps if you densify it, if it weighs more than your alginate bath, so things like sugar can help uh there. So you don't want it floating on top, you want it to sink to the bottom, so it should be denser than uh the alginate bath and slightly uh thick so that it holds together when you when you drop it and you can get nice big uh balls if you're dropping liquid, nice big balls.
+
+[47:25] Uh the other thing is you want to make sure you get all the air out of that because no matter how dense it is, if it's full of air, that'll float it and it'll float and pancake and be a nightmare. Um frozen is usually the way to go. But then the other thing is that you can't have them touching each other or they'll join together at the bottom. So usually what I'll do is I'll I'll drop a bunch, they'll float to the bottom, uh, they'll rest on the bottom, then you'll immediately dump the entire uh bath of alginate into into something else through a strainer and then flood it with water uh to separate the balls, and then I put it on calcium to set any residual algin on the outside. That's how I do it.
+
+[48:00] Yeah. On the lentil tofu, uh, a couple things you could do. I've never made uh actual tofu from lentils. Uh you can I don't know whether you're gonna be able to get a firm set. It's a couple things you can do.
+
+[48:13] You can add uh meat glue actually, uh, and I wasn't able to I didn't have time to look up on the any websites, uh, people that do this, but you can add um activa, and that will bolster any protein to protein interactions and give you a harder set, right? So that's one. Two, you could dope it with soy, so it's a soy lentil uh tofu situation, and that's gonna help out. Or three, uh there are Burmese tofu, right? You can look up isn't really tofu, it's really just kind of cooked uh like it.
+
+[48:40] They the people who do it say it's closer to like a polenta, so you cook it down and then uh let it set. But it sets almost like a tofu, but it's more of a kind of a starch reaction, the way that like uh polenta is. So you could make like a Burmese style tofu, or you could cheat by adding agar, which is what a lot of people do with their quote unquote tofus that aren't real tofu. But I think you were trying to do traditional tofu, in which case I would either bolster it with some soy or I would uh I would hit it with some Activa and see if that helps. But uh check out the Burmese tofu because people who can't have uh the regular soy seem to enjoy the Burmese tofu.
+
+[49:12] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay. That's about it. What tell the questions you're gonna get to next?
+
+[49:14] Can I can I do I'll do some real quick ones. Kobe wrote in about a burnsomatic torch. He says he's been listening to the show for a couple of months now uh and he enjoys the Vegetti Dialogues. He would like to order Sears all, but the propane tank does not ship to where uh he lives. He's not sure whether he uh could order uh a compatible burntic torch for where he lives.
+
+[49:36] Can we talk about one that's sources locally? I can't. Here's the problem. I can't recommend any torches that I haven't used uh because like I can't recommend it. I can't I don't know that they're safe.
+
+[49:48] I mean, like I would just look and see whether or not um I would look and see whether or not it's possible to find uh a torch that looks and kind of functions like us. Well, you know, we're eventually gonna look in eventually we're gonna look into maybe we'll look into making our own torch, right, Styze? But it's gonna it's gonna be a while. The other other question he had was on uh using saltpeter instead of instacure or prague powder. I'll try to find a source in Israel for curing salts because I would not use saltpeter.
+
+[50:11] Do not use saltpeter as a substitute. Then we are going to get next week to questions. We made it through an all we're getting closer, right? We have a question about use making noodles with agar agar and the flavor of tequila sunrise. We have a question on making uh your own anti-griddle uh and uh modifying pressure cookers.
+
+[50:27] We have an urgent question, which I might uh talk on Twitter, or if someone can you know, send me a Twitter question. Chris had on mint and mint. He needs this uh now, so please, and on Turkish coffee, which we'll talk about next week. Quinine and root beer all next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org.
+
+[50:49] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[51:15] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. I'm Linda Palaccio, host of A Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network at Reburtis Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn! Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Got a huge group of people here in the studio today. Join as usual with Nastasia.
+
+[0:47] The hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Uh yeah. And we got Jordanna Rothman over here in Anderson.
+
+[0:53] How are you doing? Doing well? So well. Yeah, Jordana and uh Nastasia together actually for the fourth of July, which we get to, but also special guest today. We got Cliff.
+
+[1:01] Clifford. So how do you pronounce how do you actually pronounce your last name? You go by the last name Endo usually, but it's actually Gullibe. It's goulie bear, but that was the name was given into our family by French missionaries. Ooh, so the original like Palau.
+
+[1:14] Endo is our Japanese last name. So Clifford Endo is what I usually go by. Oh, so why haga Makamaia like you're like when did this happen? When did you make this change in in your name? 18 years old.
+
+[1:25] Wow. Alright, so uh Endo it is no more gooey bear. Well it's still there. I just never say it. Alright.
+
+[1:31] Yeah. It exists for government documents only. Yeah, so like so wait like so you're interesting actually, like like Japanese, but Palauan, that's what I like, because I like the word Palau. Palau, yeah. It's a small tiny little island.
+
+[1:43] My mom's from there. I was born there. They're half Japanese, half Palauan. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[1:50] So you know, I'm sh would I like it? I would hate it, right? Tropical paradise, I would hate it. Yeah, it'd be terrible. The crystal blue waters, more fish than you could ever imagine.
+
+[1:58] Well, the fish delicious? Oh god, yeah. Alright. So I'll go. And so uh Jordana and Stons, you guys oh by the way, calling your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:07] That's 718-497-2128. You know, I do have a caller on the line. We can get to him whenever we're going to be able to do that. All right, okay. I'm not gonna let him hang.
+
+[2:13] Caller, you're on the air. Uh Dave, what's up? It's Joe from Greenpoint. How you doing? How's Greenpoint doing today?
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+[2:21] Very, very good. Um love your show. Um lately I've been experimenting with uh smoking briskets, and I wanted to try to do like a combination of sous vide or like low temperature cooking and smoking. And I want to get your thoughts on how I might go about doing that. Like, should I do the smoking for I'm assuming I should do the smoke first and then the the put it put it in uh in in the uh water.
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+[2:47] But uh what temperature should I do? I was kind of thinking maybe it would be cool to do it like medium rare braze type thing, but I don't know if that's something that you would recommend for brisket. Um just yeah, what were your thoughts be? Uh just just so you know this. So the people we got here, you got your normal nostasia to tell me that I'm an idiot, but Cliff uh has been doing uh worked with me for a long time and has been doing uh culinary production for past couple of years.
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+[3:11] So it worked a lot with these kind of techniques. And Jordana uh was paid uh is currently paid to write about eating and cooking and formerly critic of other people's uh uh cooking, correct? Very critical. Very critical. Deeply critical person.
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+[3:27] Right. So I'm sure you're like you have probably your own views on low temperature brisket. Uh, and you know, Cliff has his, but I'll just give you mine right away. Uh if you're doing a low temp brisket and you're gonna go medium rare, let's divide this into two problems smoke problem and the texture problem, the temperature you're gonna do, right? So if you're gonna go low temperature on it, um it's not gonna taste like a traditional brisket.
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+[3:50] So if you're certain like Jordana, let's say you're going to a restaurant, someone's like, I'm gonna give you a brisket. You have in your mind what a brisket is, right? Someone comes out with something that's mead rare, even if it's tender, you're like, that's more stay. Right. It doesn't hit the spot.
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+[4:04] Well, yeah, because the spot you thought you were getting hit with was the brisket spot. And a medium rare brisket doesn't hit it hits a it's delicious, but it hits a different kind of a spot. So like and and I think that's it, that's the main problem with, and I did this because I've I don't know how many thousands of short ribs I've cooked uh, you know, when I was at the French culinary as part of all the teaching stuff that we did, but you know, the more and more I ate, I was like, this is delicious, but it's not really a short rib. And if you want a short rib, this is not what you want. Anyone you you guys agreeing with me here?
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+[4:34] So like you can do a medium rare thing, it became it's not gonna taste as meaty, right? And it won't have as much moisture loss, so it won't have the same texture or concentration of uh flavor. So there's that, right? So you can choose. You can do like a uh relatively, you know, uh, you know, medium, it's like when I do confit, I do high temp, honestly.
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+[4:56] I do. Uh if you want to do the mead rare thing, do the mead rare thing, but it's not gonna be the same. The other thing is is that for smoke for smoking for flavor and color, yeah, you could smoke it uh you can smoke it before because that's gonna prevent the drying out of it. So if you're if you're gonna do if you're gonna do a mead rare, I would smoke before, then I would do your low temp, and then I would do a final crisp up on the outside of the skin. Yeah, that was my word was bark degradation.
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+[5:19] Oh, oh, yeah, well, oh yeah, hell yeah. You gotta give a final crisp up. The answer is always a final crisp up. Yeah. Unless it's gonna be all you know, El Sasso.
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+[5:26] But even in a case, like if you do a s like, remember, Cliff, when we used to do for the the low temp C V classes, we would do the uh short ribs, and they come out of the sauce and they have that disgusting like green tinge. Yeah, you have to fix that. You have to fix that. Yeah. Right.
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+[5:42] So you just need a little bit of heat on the on the on the outside, even if you didn't care about the texture, even if you were gonna chum it up and turn it into baby food just to get the color right, much less the texture on the outside. But just remember the pleasure of a fine brisket is a little bit of drying out on the outside. In my opinion, it's a little bit of the drying out on the outside, unless you're well, I mean, uh no, it is. I mean it is. So I mean like a little bit of crust on the outside, even if you're gonna go uh mead rare.
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+[6:06] I you know, one more last thing I'll give you. I don't really see any freaking point at all in going anywhere in between. Like, as soon as you hit uh as soon as you hit like uh in beef, I would say like 60 63 Celsius, anything above that, I don't see the damn point. Just go go, you know, go full temp. I don't really see much of a of a good range in there.
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+[6:29] Anyone agree, disagree? Anyone, anyone, anyone? No? Alright. What is this answering your question or not?
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+[6:35] I can't tell. Yeah, no, it's definitely, definitely. Um but what what temp would you uh first of all, do you think it's worth smoking it first than doing this, or is it just a stupid idea? And secondly, what temp would you do it if if you were to do it? What temp uh for the cook?
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+[6:50] I mean I like the okay. Oh no, for the for the for the uh uh yeah, for the the C V part of it, the low temp part of it. Okay, well, after you look, like uh when when you're first doing a lot of low temp work, your your inclination is to do the uh kind of virtuoso move that like Bruno Gusseau, like you know, the the granddaddy of low temp cooking used to do, where he'd do like his you know uh long cooked meats at rare at like 54, you know, degrees, uh, which is like rare. You know what I mean? Uh and he'd be like, awesome, right?
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+[7:24] And remember this is a story I haven't told in a long time, so Nastasia is not gonna throw up if I tell it again. But uh Chef Alain Sayak, who was uh, you know, like the dean at the uh French Culinary Institute, had a f went to a famous dinner that uh Joel Robouchon and uh and uh uh Bruno Gusot gave, and they gave them a 72-hour, like 52 or 54 degree uh short rib. And Chef Alain was like, this is not the short rib. And he thinks like it made me sick. I was sick.
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+[7:51] I was like, it's not it didn't make you sick, dude. It was like straight up bacteriologically safe. Sucker was the safest damn thing in the world. It could be served to people in like a nursing home thing was safe. But uh he thought it made him sick because he's like, it is disgusting.
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+[8:05] Who wants this? You know what I mean? So it's like it just wasn't anything he wanted. So for a virtuoso move with your with your food buddies who like like new stuff, yeah, you can go all the way that low. In general, people like long cooked things a little higher, like 57, uh, which is about 135, is a good mead rare long cook, but it's not gonna be as meaty.
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+[8:26] You could push it all the way up to like I say, to like I mean if you're gonna if you're gonna go low, I would just do 50, 50 between 57 and 60, somewhere in that range. And um never above like 62, 63, but like I would I would stay in that 57 to 60 range. It gets a the each increment in temperature you go up, it gets a little drier, but a little more meaty flavored. Okay. Remember, if you're gonna put a sauce in the bag, reduce the hell out of it.
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+[8:52] This is the mistake people make. They don't reduce the hell out of it. You ever put like a meat in a bag and you cook it and all the juices come out and now it's like swimming in its own juices, especially at these higher temperatures. If you're gonna go like 60, right? So think about the fact that any like sauce that you put in, which is not going to evaporate at all, is gonna get diluted by the meat's own juices, and then it's gonna be like it's gonna be poached.
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+[9:12] And poaching is an entirely different technique, my friend. All right, cool. Thanks a lot, Dave. I appreciate it. All right, good luck.
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+[9:20] All right, all right. All right, so uh before we get into the questions that were written in, we gotta talk about uh you know the so Stars and Jordan, Fourth of July. Oh yeah, it was really magical. Yeah, you were uh there in uh the Watch Hill, right? It was another time.
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+[9:33] It was like being in the 1930s, and we built a fort and it was spectacular. A fort, I was told teepee, fort. It was a tee it was a teepee, yeah. No, it was a glowing teepee in the forest outside of our restored barn. I like that a lot.
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+[9:46] You know, I'm gonna build a legit teepee, like 15 foot teepee with pole. This is the thing. I'm sure you're gonna do it better than I did it. Well, I mean did you buy did you buy the uh the two best known references on TP and lodge construction? Um actually what I did was I went foraging in a shed for electrical cords, which I lashed around some trees and hung sheets over them.
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+[10:08] So if that's how you would do it. That's pretty baller. I mean, like I I like you know this you know what I like about Jordan Stas? She gets she gets it done. She gets it done.
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+[10:15] She gets it done. I'm a resourceful chick. You know, you don't you didn't need a teepee. You didn't need a teepee in a week, right? What I need it, what I what we actually did, although Nastasia disagrees with this, is that we danced, we weaved throughout the trees, and I tried to pay attention to the trees to which Nastasia was particularly drawn.
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+[10:32] She hates trees. No, she doesn't. She doesn't. She tells me because I like them, so she says that she hates the fruit. She doesn't like cooked fruit, the bottom of pools.
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+[10:39] Biscuits. Uh biscuits and the eagles. Oh, cooked fruits. The eagles, yeah, she hates them. Not the team, the band.
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+[10:48] But she does like trees. She does like trees. This is a witchy woman. But she always told me she hates them because I like them. Well, when we have to stop and like eat the leaves.
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+[10:57] Yeah. She doesn't like the things that you do with trees. She likes what I do with trees. It's a different thing entirely. She likes SMing trees.
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+[11:04] She wasn't there for the lashing. They did that in private. I lashed alone so that I could surprise her. Nice. I heard that you guys uh were crushing your beer cans and throwing them into Taylor Swift's deck.
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+[11:16] Um yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we did. We sold them with fireworks, actually. Nice. And we created projectiles and they they landed in Ed Sheeran's hair caught on fire. I like that.
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+[11:27] That's sweet. I like that a lot. So you know, I actually like you know, one of your buddies who was there was supposed to get the fireworks for your shindig's doll, didn't do it. Yeah, no, but I had another buddy who showed up with fireworks. Thank God for buddies.
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+[11:39] The uh I I had a huge amount of illegal fireworks at at my place, and I have to say, I think I talked about it on the show. If you have the opportunity, if you live near a state that like has decent laws about fireworks, go out right now because I'm sure it's cheap and buy the 500 gram zipper cake entitled American Trucker. It is 11 seconds of awesome. Awesome. Is that the uh name of a firework?
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+[12:01] Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And right before we played it, I cranked American woman like Lenny Kravitz, and the American Trucker was like, blah blah blah blah blah blah. Like here's the thing.
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+[12:09] Like most times, so the 500 grams is the most amount of powder you can put into a firework and sell legally and as one block of firework. And I bought some of the giant tubes that you like singly, which are awesome because they're like poof, you know, they go really high. But the ones that you like light one and walk away, it's awesome. So most of these last like 45 seconds a minute, but American Trucker does its full 500 grams in 11 seconds. 11, and I like it.
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+[12:33] Like I'm I'm that kind of guy. I hope this doesn't say it's I'm that guy that I crunch my candy. You know what I'm saying? I put the hard candy in my mouth, I try to suck on it for a minute, I'm like F this and a crunch it, and that's it. We're different in that way.
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+[12:43] You're the long suck? I'm a slow burned gal. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[12:47] Yeah. Anyway, but so maybe you would prefer the big and bold, which is another one of the 500 grand cakes that I got. But I'm saying American Trucker for my money, especially if you back it up with a bunch of like X caliber and El Diablo shells right afterwards. Awesome. Anyway, also I got another collar by the way.
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+[13:03] Oh, yeah, one thing. Also, I hooked up my deep fryer to go uh LP. So I took my natural gas deep fryer out of the city. I'm no longer a deep fryer in the city, brought it to Connecticut, fired it up on propane, have it outside. So I've for years been telling people to uh put their deep fryer outside, and so I can report on how it's gonna work with weather and propane usage and all that.
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+[13:23] I'll be testing it the whole freaking summer, but I was busting out fries and chicken and shrimp, like the end of the freaking world was coming. Anyway, caller, you're on the air. Uh it's Colin. Down in DC calling in. And I had a question, uh sort of set of questions about ice for you.
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+[13:43] I got a friend who is opening and uh I got a friend who's opening up a bar in you know a former restaurant space. And they've got some equipment still there. And we're trying to see if it makes any sense to hold on to that for their ice program. So you mean like an ice machine? They have uh they have some ice machines you want to hold on to.
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+[14:05] Yeah, they got an ice machine and they got like uh a victory two-door reach-in freezer. We're hoping to try to use to do some like bigger, clear presentation kind of cubes and stuff. Okay. Um on the with the small with the small stuff. Uh they've got an isomatic little thing that like pushes out the little waffle shaped cube things.
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+[14:33] Yeah. Uh is that it's like smaller than you suggest in your book for shaking stuff or stirred stuff because it's just too much surface and they melt quick. Yeah. They're kind of execrable little things. I mean, like, do you have a use do you have a non-cocktail use for them?
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+[14:51] Um I think they might, I mean, I think he's shipped in this place to mainly mainly cocktail bar with like a small, small food program. I mean, I mean, I don't know how much it I don't I don't know what the cost of ownership on that sucker is, but I mean like if I could if I could like like do whatever I wanted, I would get like a medium decent ice machine, right? With decent size, uh, you know, not like huge cubes, but decent sized cubes, one that's easy to kind of uh work with. I would do my own ice program by freezing down cubes probably in a in a chest freezer. Uh you could do reach in but chest in i in igloos, and then if I had like like super money, I would go get a nugget machine, because I've always wanted a nugget machine.
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+[15:32] Uh and then uh that's what I would do. And then if you wanted like a serious, like uh if you want a serious uh what's it called, like raw bar, you could get a flake, but or you could just uh or you could just get a like a machine to flake out the cube, cubes that you got. But that that's I mean that's what I would do. I here's the thing. Like if you're strapped for cash, yeah, make it work with the crap ice that you know comes out of that machine, but uh, you know, make sure you make sure that you change the filters and make sure everything like, you know, i if it's coming out clear, your filters are probably good.
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+[16:01] Like the water's like the water off that ice is quite nice. It's good. But it's just, you know, it's kind of small. It we sort of see that it's got limitations and you know we could calibrate around that and just try to work with it. But you could uh you could but the idea of like try for something like it's like a cold draft machine sort of sounds like what has uh has the buzz of something people use a lot around here.
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+[16:27] I like cold draft for the like cocktail stuff, but you know if you're gonna do any culinary with it, it's kind of a crappy culinary ice 'cause it doesn't stack very well into uh like if you actually need to ice a bunch of stuff down it's a little bit of a pain in the butt. Here's another thing I'll say uh if you look if you in New York a lot of the times what you do is you hire like the bartender comes in and they're working a couple shifts here, a couple shifts there, a couple shifts here, a couple shifts there, right? Then it's gonna be hard to have everyone bend their head around the fact that you're using shell ice and everyone else is not and so you're probably gonna have some issues with it. If you're if your bar team is only your bar team and they're only working with you, yeah then you could crank you know like as long as you know what you your tools are, you can crank delicious stuff out no matter what ice you have. It doesn't matter.
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+[17:09] You just have to like alter your alter your techniques uh a little bit. But then it requires you to make sure that everyone does alter their techniques and if someone comes in you have to beat them around the head and tell them that you know that it's a little different from where they worked before, etc, etc. Make sure that everything's right. You can have to keep a really uh eagle eye on your wash lines when the drinks come out and stuff like that. But it can be done.
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+[17:29] I mean ice ice is ice, it's just the rate at which it dilutes. That's all it that's all you're messing with, right? And then how much surface water is on it. Yeah. Well, one one thing we had heard in talking to some of our some of our friends down here that uh had places was that you know a couple of them had had some kind of recurring maintenance issues with the cold draft machine.
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+[17:49] Yeah, recently stuff to really pay attention to with those, or is those like they claim it makes them a little bit higher maintenance than just the shell ice machines? They claim that they fixed those maintenance problems, but I don't know whether that's true. It also used to be that there weren't as many people around servicing cold drafts, so when they went down there was like uh problems. I mean, a lot of times in the summer, especially as your machine ages, you're gonna get problems with your ice machine because they're running all the time. Um but uh you know, I had heard that I thought that they fixed that problem.
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+[18:18] I I'd heard that that was a problem. I haven't I haven't owned one uh or you know, had to use one on a daily basis in years. So I don't currently know like uh but someone will probably tweet in and be like, nah, they fixed that, they work fine, or they'll tweet and be like, no, it's still a problem. You know what I mean? I mean, are there other are there other sort of brands in that ballpark that are recommended by people?
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+[18:39] Almost everyone now makes a uh almost everyone now makes a larger size cube that you can use and a nicer nicer cube. I would look look, you know, you're gonna have a service contract at the at the bar or restaurant. So I would I mean, honestly, whoever services the stuff well, I haven't done it. But I haven't spec'd one in a long time. So, you know, I don't know, you know, things things to look for are, you know, uh is the filtration good?
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+[19:17] Uh does it have a problem with uh with uh you know mold and slime growing on the inside of the unit because that's you know an issue. Who is that guy? Some guy told me about the guy in Texas who used to like go into every restaurant, bust into the kitchen with the camera crew, go to the ice machine and be like green slime, and that was like all he ever did. That was his only restaurant shake. You heard of this guy?
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+[19:35] Definitely not. I think he's dead now. But anyway, it's a kind of a good shtick, right? Green slime. So you want to make sure that uh you know that that that's the thing, it's easy to clean and it's not gonna harbor nasty bacteria.
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+[19:45] That's it. You don't want to harbor nasty bacteria, you want a good filter, you want to make nice clear ice, it doesn't taste like crap. Don't you hate when you go to a place and the ice machine has some sort of like crazy ass infection and that the ice tastes wrong? Don't you hate that? You hate it?
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+[19:57] Yeah, and it never gets dry, just stays wet. Yeah, you know what else? Yeah, I hate that. You know what else I hate when they don't fix the filters on their ice machines and the ice machine gets that crumply look on the outside of the ice, that like raggedy look on the outside of the ice because it wasn't like filtered right. I hate that.
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+[20:12] Or when you start getting the the cloudy sprays through the ice because it's filled. I hate that. Hate, hate. Yeah. Anyways, I hope that helps.
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+[20:39] I mean, do you see like an inherent problem with that, other than that, like the bottom chunk's gonna not be beautiful? Yeah, as long as we like kind of I mean, uh did it work? Yeah, it seemed to. It's just the way the way it's the way it is right now, it's kind of slow because it's a little hot in that room, so we're working on the ventilation to make the uh refrigeration work a little more efficiently. Right.
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+[21:00] I mean that it's supposed to be slow. If it like you should only be freezing, look, to get a really nice clear cube, you should probably only be freezing like, you know, uh in that kind of a freezer without movement. Because remember, you're not moving in like a climb belt. Climb bell can freeze faster because the water's moving. In a fridge, you probably shouldn't be free.
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+[21:18] A freezer rather, you probably shouldn't be freezing more than like two, two and a half inches a day. Uh okay. Yeah. And that was another thing that's curious about. And you know, look, if if the double pans works for you, if it insulates it enough such that you're not trapping stuff in the underside of it and you're still getting clear cubes that you can like, you know, chip off the stuff, then yeah, I mean, that's easier to deal with than uh than igloos.
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+[21:40] I've always just done it in igloo because I don't know, I just have. I've never tried a double hotel page. Yeah, I mean that's that's what I've done at home. It works. Yeah.
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+[21:48] Um well the last okay, last thing is in in uh in your in the freezer, right? It's got a defrost cycle and uh individual timer to run that. Is there if we're using this primarily just for freezing blocks of ice, is there a best way to kind of game that defrost cycle. I don't think the defrost is gonna defrost is not gonna hurt your your as far as I can tell, the defrost is not gonna hurt your ice making. And uh it will it will shaft your coils if you don't defrost it.
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+[22:22] Defrost, obviously, don't ever put freaking ice cream in a in a in a freezer that has a defrost cycle because you're just asking for paint. Obviously, yeah, ruining everything. But like uh, but but remember the whole goal of a big ice cube is giant freaking ice crystals. So the enemy, the enemy of your ice, which is like melting the small crystals and melting and like free freezing them back into your ice cream, rather, melting them back into larger uh ice crystals, is in fact your friend when it comes to big ice. Your friend.
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+[22:51] Don't shaft those coils. That's mom always told me. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
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+[22:58] Uh we're not gonna we're gonna go through a whole other episode without getting to any of the written questions, aren't we? Is that gonna happen to us? Well, people should only ask one question per call. I know, but that's not in our rule. I think it's if you want to establish a rule.
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+[23:10] Well, if you want to establish a rule, you can establish a rule, but that's not been all right. Should we do some questions before we go to break? Jack? Yes. Yes?
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+[23:17] Yes. Oh, uh, by the way, I'll just I'll just put this in. I shouldn't do this. But uh John Rivett wrote in, and so Dave care to weigh in on the latest peas in guacamole debate. I didn't even hear about this until it was too late.
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+[23:28] Apparently, the president of like our president of our United States cares about whether there's peas in the guacamole. Yeah. Guacamole. Melissa Clark does, apparently. I don't know.
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+[23:39] Jordana hooked me up at this. Tell tell you I know you know, but the stas doesn't care because she hates to talk about food when she's not at work and we don't do that for work. So, you know. Well, the peas and guacal, well, I actually I miss the hullabaloo myself, but I'm aware of it because, you know, it's I'm aware of it. But um, there was actually there was a pea guacamole at ABC Cosina like a year and a half ago.
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+[23:58] I mean, like, this is not like a new debate, and it sort of sparked up then. And then Melissa Clark published, I think, a recipe in the New York Times, and it was like this whole Twitter hullabaloo, and people were debating whether they were team P or Team No P. Well, I understand. It's a variant, right? If you like the taste, do it, yeah.
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+[24:17] Yeah, like is it good? It's kind of like the baseline for everything. Yeah, did it taste good or not? Well, like I like I like Alex Dupac's like uh pistachio guacamole, I think it's delicious. Sure, and he actually makes a great one with Uni as well, which is quite good.
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+[24:31] Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, that wouldn't be my first. That wouldn't be my my first way to describe it, but I like where you went with it. Um but uh, you know, whatever, right, exactly.
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+[24:41] But like we need things to debate because like we're, you know. What's the debate? Hungry for you know, arguments that you know there's everyone wins. It's an approach, it's an approach approach. It's an approach approach debate, and we can all feel good at the end of the day.
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+[24:54] I like peas. I don't. Okay, then I mean, how's that an argument? Well, because it's like it's a it's a it's a light way to have a debate and sort of like exorcise some of our demons without you know offending anyone. Well, I'll tell you what I like, you know, mine human nature.
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+[25:08] My guacamole thing, I put cumin in mine all the time. Well, I mean, you bring shame upon this family. Yeah, well, you know what? I paid for the avocados, I do what I want. And the debate there ends.
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+[25:19] If you don't want to eat my guac, I put if I really want to eat your guac, actually. You know, that's what I'm saying. I put you know what Nastasia doesn't like cumin, and so she doesn't put it. We've had this discussion on the air before. Yeah, so listen to this.
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+[25:30] You ready for this? Nastasia does not put cumin in her chili. Wow. Well, too much cumin goes BO. Whoa.
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+[25:38] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a thing. Too little cumin and you got tomato stew. You know what I'm saying?
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+[25:44] Like beef tomato stew. For me, a guacamole is measured. I mean, you can put whatever you want in it, frankly. Like I wouldn't put cumin, but uh, it's a tasty flavor. It's I can understand why you would.
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+[25:56] It's about the gradient of color. If you overmash your guacamole and it's like all like the same color green, then you and I have some words. All right, here's here's the issue. Like, I like a chunky, like like old style. I also like hyper puree, both.
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+[26:09] Yeah, I'm I'm on the chunky style. I I can't do the pure. Okay, I also like both kinds of peanut butter. I'm just gonna go there. Yeah, but that's a totally different thing.
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+[26:16] Guacamole is you want to see the green, you want to see the dark green and the light green and the sort of yellowy, and it reminds you what you're eating, and it connects you to the earth, and it's like a whole thing. You don't know. Connects you to the earth. They grow in trees. The puree, yeah.
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+[26:28] What is the what is a tree grow out of? Arnold's well, so so do I grow out of the earth. You look at me, it'll remind you of the earth at the time. Well, when I mash you into a glass of minute, I'll just try to get the gradient of color. Hey, speaking of mashed and peas, though, I was just in uh London, and those guys make the mashed minted peas, which I didn't know I liked.
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+[26:46] Yeah. I didn't know I liked mashed minted peas. Super tasty. They're delicious. Yeah.
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+[26:50] I had one excellent version of it that spoiled me forever, and one like, oh my God, why didn't I have the excellent one all the time? Because the second one I had, I was like, oh, mashed minted peas, mashed minted peas. And they were like, you know, like all kind of like, you know what I mean? Kind of like give them the bad stuff, he's too excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[27:06] Ruined forever. Oh man, doesn't it suck to like just get turned on to something and have gotten a really good one and then someone gives you the crap the next day? The worst. All right. And one more thing, uh EW Nasser wrote in, uh, friend of the show, uh, regarding the collar about eggs ice cream a while ago.
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+[27:22] Uh he's been using uh Jenny's ice cream recipes for a while. G J E N I uh look it up on the internet with great uh results. Uh should we do a should we do a question? Jack, do we have time? I have one more caller if we want to squeeze that in first.
+
+[27:35] Let's do it, caller, you're on the air. You have one question caller. Oh Jack is the hammer today. Hi, I wanted to uh ask you. Um I had a great time at Booker and Doc last weekend, by the way.
+
+[27:45] Oh, thanks. I want to ask you about the um how to recreate the Rasumatazerac. Uh-huh. And also just kind of you like your general formula for rattlers or like any kind of inform uh interesting ideas ideas you would try with them. All right the Rasm the Rasumatazerac is uh they were doing uh they were getting dried freeze-dried raspberries and then blending them Houstino into the liquor and spinning them out.
+
+[28:10] So any sort of like freeze-dried raspberry, and I think they're still using freeze-dried raspberries. So that's what they use for their base, and then otherwise it's a straight Sazerac. It's the only use of Peshodes I allow in the bar because I detest peixods, bitters. It tastes like cough syrup. Jordana, you love cough syrup, that's why.
+
+[28:26] That's what that looking for. Sipping some scissor. You know what? Uh we actually used to have Robotussin on the back bar. Remember that?
+
+[28:34] If it's not a controlled substance, no interest. Whoa. Uh whoa. You're getting the real. Getting the real.
+
+[28:42] That's what scissor is. It's not just like Robotus. But we're doing it for flavor, Jordana, just for flavor. And it tastes remarkably like uh Peshods. I know where you I see that.
+
+[28:52] Yeah, I can see that. And then we flamed it with the red hot pot. Anyway, blah blah blah. But back to the question. So like that's how they do that that.
+
+[28:58] And other other than that, I think it's fairly straight up, like uh, you know, Sazerac. I think they do the absent risk. They might rinse with something else. I gotta get the spec. It's not actually my spec.
+
+[29:06] I didn't write the spec, so I gotta I gotta get it. But the rattler, honestly, it's the only recipe that I that I've uh written that's written in cans. So like you do it just like you do the old school orange juice. We take a can of clarified uh of the beer, and then we take, and you want like a relatively non-hoppy, relatively uh light beer, and then um we uh pour a can of uh the clarified grapefruit juice into it and carbonate it, and that's it. It's like super simple.
+
+[29:34] A couple drops of salt, super simple, super refreshing, very light alcohol, but refresh- I like rabbit a lot, even Stas likes them. She's not a beer-y person. You had the rattler at bed BDX, any of you guys? It's like it's so like obviously, like a lot of people, they do like the lemon in the beer, but I like grapefruit. I like grapefruit and beer.
+
+[29:50] I think it's delicious. But you can't go too too too hoppy. You know what I mean? And also, I don't think the one we use is not cascade, even though that would be a more grapefruit-y, fruity thing. But anyway, we don't.
+
+[30:00] But anyway, so like I would think like anything like that, I think in the summer, people like the low alcohol stuff. People like to people like a pounder. And the juice itself is too damn sweet, but when you cut it with the beer, then like the sweetness is right on the thing, and like the beeriness is right, so it's like right in between. It's like the Arnold Palmer of beers. Kind.
+
+[30:18] Candy. Chandy, yeah. But like the grapefruit in particular, I find it refreshing. Because what's some mushy peas? Some mu mushy minted peas, but a bright green mushy minted pea.
+
+[30:27] Anyway, hope that helps go into commercial break, coming right back with cooking issues. Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have.
+
+[31:08] And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity.
+
+[31:36] The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Chorro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at Heritage Foods USA.com for more information.
+
+[32:33] Yeah, I will see you all down the moonlight, no knock down on the threads. The gallery's taking up the jail. And a longer than normal break. Back with cooking issues. Hey, Jack, did you play any Jackie Molecules while we were on break?
+
+[33:28] No. I did not play Jackie Molecules. Can you play the Jackie Molecules ringtone, please? Oh man, I absolutely will. Here, hold on, let me pull it up.
+
+[33:36] Did you did you download it yet? I don't know how to. You don't know how to. I made a ringtone for our friend Peter, Peter Kim, who is the Brother Peter. Peter Kim is uh, by the way, the director of the August uh Museum of Food and Drink, and we actually have an exhibit that's gonna open in October.
+
+[33:52] We can't say he was paying for it yet, but we got a chunk of change uh to do it. And so, uh, but I made him a ringtone uh that Nastasi and I enjoyed. I'll play it for you now while Jack is getting up his jacket. Oh, you have yours ready? No child wants to play with a eater in the box.
+
+[34:10] Can you hear that? Peter in the box? Yeah, yeah. Because Nastasi and I are obsessed with Rudolph the Rudolph. My name's all wrong.
+
+[34:25] No child wants to play with a Peter in the box. So I had to come here. Oh, I love that show. King Moon Racer. That show makes less and less sense every time I watch it.
+
+[34:35] Stassi, you've seen it, what, 857 times? You've probably seen it more because you have kids. Yeah, but I think it freaks Booker out. He doesn't you know what he doesn't like to watch? He doesn't like to watch the other one, the one with Heat Miser and Snow Miser, even though Thomas Waugh, the bartender, is an exact mix of Heat Miser and Snow Miser.
+
+[34:49] Oh my god. Whoa. He totally is. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[34:51] Yeah. Yep. Alright. Okay, so uh Jackie Molecules. Where's my Jackie Molecules at?
+
+[35:06] Oh, that was the one without you. Jackie Molecules. Oh man. Can any cooking issues listener download that? You had to donate to the Kickstarter campaign, but I'll I'll tell you this if you email Heritage Radio and ask specifically and ask nicely, uh I'll I'll send it over.
+
+[35:26] I'm gonna put that on. You never call me, Jack. You never call me anymore. So I'm gonna have that be your ringtone when you have perfect. I want like all my buddies to have custom ringtones.
+
+[35:34] Why not? We live in a world where that's possible. You know Nastasius, right? No. I shouldn't do this.
+
+[35:39] It's not about cooking, and really, like, I have so many questions to get to, but you know, I can't help it. Those of you that have met Nastasia in the real life will appreciate this. Yeah. You are mean to me. You are mean to me.
+
+[36:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We got a question in Matt from Aquan.
+
+[36:06] I have to do this. There's a caller who's been waiting the whole time. Alright, caller, you are on the air. Hi, Dave. How you doing?
+
+[36:13] Hey, this is Chris from the Green Zone with the mint question. Oh, what happened? You did like you had you already had your event, yeah? Well, it's uh it's an ongoing series of events, so uh it's never too late. Alright.
+
+[36:25] Alright, alright. So so what happened with the one that you did? So the question, by the way, they're trying to do mint. Trying to do mint, right? Uh I have a blend check, not a vita prep, but um and I uh tried adding ascorbic acid as an antioxidant.
+
+[36:44] That didn't help. I'm basically using your blender muddling technique from liquid Intelligence. And uh ascorbic acid didn't work, uh I thought it might keep it from browning, but then I remembered all your talk about acid turning things with chlorophyll brown. Well, yeah, except except okay. Yeah, moderate.
+
+[37:08] Yeah. And so for my events so far, I've just been blending it on the spot and serving the drink on the spot at the bar. Um, but I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to keep that green color for more than like half an hour. No, mint is much harder than the rest of the herbs. The ascorbic acid didn't help at all.
+
+[37:24] No, I mean, in fact, if anything that made it worse. Right. Well, if you add small amounts, so too much acidity can go the other way, but like s like it should it should the baking soda did work though, and you tried even like toning it down to to it's hard. Mint is really hard. Mint wants to go brown really badly.
+
+[37:42] Yes, have you tried using like semi-dried? Well, I haven't, but so the whole point is that in in you know, my bar is a Middle Eastern team, cocktail bar. In the Middle East, blended mint lemonade is super popular, and it always has this vivid green color and really fresh taste. So that's what I'm going for. No, but they're using dried, right?
+
+[38:05] No, no, they're using fresh, but they blend it to order on the spot. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I look I've never had luck keeping fresh mint. You first first of all, you can't blanch it.
+
+[38:17] It's destroyed. You can't blanch it. You can't. No, as soon as you heat the mint, it's ruining. Run.
+
+[38:24] Yeah. Uh but then uh the uh yeah, I think the baking soda's gonna make it taste soapy. The it didn't taste soapy, it tasted almost like creamy, if that makes sense. Creamy. That sounds like that could be good.
+
+[38:38] Yeah, it doesn't have like a creamy texture or anything, but like it had this slightly sweet, almost vaguely fatty dairy taste. Cliff says bun peas into it, but he's just joking. That goes back to the guacamole debate we were having earlier. Um fake green not fake, but like chlorophyll extracts, one thing you could do. Uh well, you know, you could do that.
+
+[39:00] You could do chlorophyll extracts in it. Uh that's cheating. That's cheating like a motor. No, I think like sp like you make like a good spinach extract, uh that'll stay green. Green.
+
+[39:15] Yeah. Yeah. Green. I heard that's actually the source of the color in Chartreuse. You heard right.
+
+[39:22] Yeah. Spinach. Spinach. Yeah, so that works. I mean, it's and reduce it down or what?
+
+[39:31] Uh I mean, you don't need that much, I don't think. Like if you make a good extra do you have a good uh t a good uh recipe off the top of your head, Cliff, for that? Do you make that for the uh TV shows ever for the green? Uh it's we just we it's a blanch blend strain. But you squeeze the hell out of it before you blend it, right?
+
+[39:47] Blanche, squeeze the hell, get that black dark stuff out, then blend strain, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh the spinach. Yeah.
+
+[39:55] The you know, uh the other problem though is when mint turns brown, it also the flavor changes. So if it's mainly the color, but you're not getting oxidative flavor changes in it, then you're gonna be okay. But if it starts tasting swampy, that's when you know you're gonna be able to do it. Yeah, it doesn't actually taste so bad. It definitely I I know what you mean.
+
+[40:12] Like, you know, if I muddle a mojito and I let it sit out for a while, it starts to smell and taste awful. Did you know that you're not allowed to yell at customers for not drinking their stuff fast enough? Did you know that? Well, I mean, you know, when I'm when I fled to order, the customers are definitely drinking it fast enough. Good.
+
+[40:29] Good for them. Anyway, but like uh I'm look, just keep keep calling and tweeting back and let me know whether you come up with something that works because it's a problem that uh everyone has had. We do all of our stuff on mint uh to order just because uh I've never been able to get it to keep, and I never do mint for outside events when we're gonna do bottle batching because I can't get it to work. So if you come up with something that you like, just let us know. Alrighty.
+
+[40:50] Okay, sound good. Alrighty. Uh Matt wrote in for wait, Jordan's on the air for a reason. We only have five minutes left. She had a big question.
+
+[40:58] Let me just finish Matt because I started it and then we'll do it. Matt from Ackeron wrote in on quinine. I haven't been able to get quinine sulfate USP from Spectrum Chemical. Uh tips on that would be appreciated. They rejected my LLC's attempt.
+
+[41:11] Hmm. Tell them you're a school. Right? Tell them you're a school. I wait, I didn't tell you to just falsely represent that you're a school.
+
+[41:17] I take that back. I don't know. Figure something out. Uh to make tonic, but I have been able to get kinchona bark. The tonic I've made from the kinchona bark is is it chinchona or kinchona?
+
+[41:25] I've always said kin. I think it's chinchona. Chinch well, it's ch chin, like chin chin, chim. Okay. Chinchona is great tasting, but it's brownish color that many find unappealing.
+
+[41:34] Can you think of any way to clarify it? Well, look, remember, clarity and color are two different things. I can have something that's totally clear, it's still gonna be brown, right? So you want colorless and clear. When I do it, I can make it uh totally clear.
+
+[41:47] I mean, uh, yeah, clear in in a centrifuge or with good filtration. Uh and that's gonna be good for good enough for carbonation. Um anyway, here's a link to uh Jeffrey Morgenthaler's page if you need the recipe. Yeah, I have that recipe. He also adds other spices uh to it.
+
+[42:00] Uh I've done a decent um I've done a decent uh quinine. In fact, I have a recipe for it in Liquid Intelligence, how to use the bark. The problem is that even when it's fully clear, there are foaming agents in can in the conchona bark that aren't the quinine, and it's gonna you're gonna get more foam out. So you just need to be careful. If you do a good job clarifying, and you could put it through uh a filter to try and do that.
+
+[42:22] Like you could put it through some sort of like uh some sort of you know filter that gets all the particles out, but I hate doing that. You could spin it in a low grade centrifuge that would also work because you don't need to do that much. But you need to get it crystal clear. Once it's crystal clear, I mean the color's not that unappealing once it's really watered down to the point where you're gonna use it. Uh then it looks almost like a ginger ale and people will find that it's uh pleasant.
+
+[42:43] And if you do get it clear, you will get foaming when you open the bottle, but you won't continuously lose carbonation uh because of constant nucleation of bubbles. So hope that helps. Now, uh Jordana, we're gonna Jack, we're gonna have to do another freaking catch up. I'm ready when you are. I got I got two whole weeks we'll look for the questions here.
+
+[42:59] I'm not gonna get to answer. Jordiana, what do we got going? Okay. So here's my situation. Um I'm going to Burning Man again this summer.
+
+[43:07] And wait, you you went once and you're gonna go again? Yeah, I'm gonna go for like as long as they'll have me, basically. I thought the whole thing was that they have anyone that shows up. Um definitely not the whole thing. It's like a very regimented thing with like tickets and a whole really?
+
+[43:21] Oh yeah. Didn't isn't it just like a bunch of people like lighting gas fires and it didn't start as a bunch of people like bringing a bunch of crazy stuff and lighting big gas fires in the desert? Um it actually started on a beach in San Francisco um and it's grown to I mean it's the second largest city in Nevada outside of Las Vegas for one week out of the year. It's 70,000 people and it's like an entire infrastructure. It's the city.
+
+[43:42] I mean, it's are there gas fires? Because like if there's no gas. There are definitely fires. You burn the effigy, don't worry. And a lot of the art burns as well.
+
+[43:50] Um, and it's a really amazing community. I mean, it's like a staggering infrastructure, actually. It's really uh uh it's really stunning what how well it actually works considering um its reputation. Do you live where do you where do you live in this situation? You live in do you have like some sort of like I live in a camp, yeah.
+
+[44:07] Like a bedouin tent? They're pretty awesome. Um I actually I live in in like a trailer, a double wide, really classic. They bring double wides into this. Well, I bring we bring it, yeah.
+
+[44:18] We bring it from Reno, drive it in. Damn. Yeah. That's up in the game. Yeah.
+
+[44:22] I mean, a lot of people live in tents, and that's still the majority for sure. Yeah, it's I mean, listen, like basically what it provides. It provides, I mean, it's not a whole I mean it's not like luxurious by any means, and I share it with six people, so it's not it's cramped in. When you say double wide, like you're talking about the ones that my grandma used to live in and Wappington's Falls. And you you drive it in, so you hitch it to a uh truck and you drive it in and then you park it and then you press a button and it expands.
+
+[44:49] So it's a movie trailer. It's like Hadad's. I don't know what Hadad's is. They're like the movie trailer. No, no, no.
+
+[44:54] It's not oh right, right, right. Actually, I do know what Hadad's is. Amazing. No, um it's no, I mean it looks it looks like an RV, it just doesn't have the driving mechanism inside of it. It's it's uh hitched to a truck.
+
+[45:05] Um basically what it provides is like a little bit more protection from the elements, and it provide it actually, it has a you know, it has a it has a bathroom for, you know, but it and then it has a um uh a refrigerator. So that actually helps with some storage issues, but not to the extent that I'm going to need them this summer because so part of the whole experience there is that you go and you want to contribute to the community last year. I really kind of let it all wash over me and it was really amazing, and I took so much from the experience, but I felt like I didn't contribute that much. So this year my my group and I decided that we want to build a bar um at Burning Man to give back to the community. By keep you mean you're not gonna sell liquor, you're gonna give it away?
+
+[45:44] There's no selling. There's no selling to gift. And so actually last year it sort of happened organically. Um we started we were making palomas for everyone, which is really nice. But um this year we wanna we wanna, you know, make it a little bit more formal.
+
+[45:59] We actually want to build a structure and we have this idea for like a rope installation art piece, and I wanna do and our our camp is Day of the Dead themed, um shout out La Calaca. So we want to do m you know Mexican cocktails, but part of that is citrus and the environment, the climate of Burning Man, uh the citrus will go immediately, so you can't actually bring citrus. So I started to think about what are some alternatives to how can I fake citrus basically in the desert. So my first thought was that I would do minding that there are sort of packing issues as well, you know, like I'm bringing two duffels, we don't have a tremendous amount of room, there's not you know, you y you gotta be a little bit scrappy. So my first thought was maybe inspired by the acid tasting that you did at the Fantastic Mofad benefit um at Carnegie Hall.
+
+[46:45] I thought maybe I would do like I would fake lime juice with some of the powdered acids. And so I want more information upon that. But then I was told by my friend Nastasia that you actually had another idea. Yes, many, many. So let's talk about it.
+
+[46:58] Whenever you have a problem, clear the parameters. How many drinks we talk about? How many drinks? Well, yeah, well, that's a mm Give me a I I'm gonna say fifty, hundred, thousand. Wherever I'm gonna say four hundred.
+
+[47:10] Four hundred. Four to five hundred, let's say. So let's say you were gonna just bring straight up lime juice. Let's say I can make a keep for you, right? Okay.
+
+[47:17] Uh you're gonna be talking about in the levels that I'm doing, let's say you have about an ounce per drink. How many? How many drinks? 400? Let's say five, four or five hundred.
+
+[47:27] So like five hundred ounces, so call that like uh eight, two-liter bottles. Can you do it? Could I bring eight two-liter bottles? No. It's too heavy.
+
+[47:39] I can't travel with that. Eight two. Now you're getting tough. Here's the problem with acids. Yeah, talk to me.
+
+[47:45] Acids don't have first of all, they don't have the richest of flavor that a real uh that a real you know citrus is gonna have. They're good for making sodas and things that are gonna keep uh infinitely. And the good news is the amount of acid that's contained in a liter, right? So a kilogram of lime juice only weighs 60 grams. Right.
+
+[48:07] But uh things that are shaken that have acids in them have no texture because they don't have any of the proteins that you get out of the out of the citrus. Um it's never gonna have that kind of fresh kind of fruit kind of a thing going on. Um, if you could have someone deliver the citrus to the trailer, then you could juice it and cook it. The answer to keeping it is doing cordial, right? Right.
+
+[48:35] So, like, you know, if you want to use real citrus, the answer is is like you don't want to be juicing every day, and the juice is gonna go bad. It's not pot. It's not even though we do have refrigeration in the trailer, and there's actually a little bit of added refrigeration in in this sort of like desert kitchen thing, it's not as it's it's not something I can count on. It's not like equal quantities of sugar and lime juice. Because you're gonna remember, you're gonna need sugar out there too.
+
+[48:59] So equal quantities of sugar and lime juice. If you just bring it up to a boil with some peel in it and let it settle out, that can stay out in the desert covered, not in a fridge forever. We're talking about, by the way, like temperatures can rise during the day to over 100 degrees and higher, and at night they can drop to freezing. Very, very challenging environment. Yeah, but this it's all good.
+
+[49:20] You'll be good for how long is it? Less less than a week. Yeah. So you you'll be good because the combination of the acidity and the sugar ain't nothing growing in in that cordial, right? So it's totally preserved.
+
+[49:30] Now, if you can't fly it out there, but you know, you could like like like when you pick up the thing, like quickly juice like the the limes or have someone buy the hey, actually, don't buy the really bad stuff. But once you're gonna cook it, the lime juice doesn't have to be super fresh anyway, because you're gonna make a cordial with it, right? Test it here first so you get the recipe right. But you could literally just buy the I'm making air quotes, like fresh lime juice that's been juiced a couple of days ago. You could buy it by the quart out there in uh in Vegas, in Reno.
+
+[50:01] You know my uh my uh crazy uncle Ralph Vigorito was a pit boss in Reno back in the day. Did not know that. Yeah, glad to pay him a visit if you'd like. Yeah, oh no, he's in Jersey now. I haven't seen him in a while.
+
+[50:10] Anyway, uh oh my god, he's an awesome character. Anyways, so uh yeah, like equal quantities of that lime juice. Not the real, not the real bull, real BS, you know, but like fresh semi-fresh. Right. Uh oh, here's another good one.
+
+[50:23] Uh, even easier. Even easier. Take the malic acid and the citric acid that I'm talking about. The powders. Yeah.
+
+[50:30] Test this. I haven't done it. I haven't made an orange cordial. But take the the malic and the citric, and it's 32 grams of um uh citric and 20 grams of malic acid per liter of OJ. Because OJ is fantastically easy to buy, fresh squeezed, right?
+
+[50:45] Combine uh that and every you know, every liter of that OJ, which you can source anywhere, and you can just fly out with the powders, put uh equal quantity a kilo of sugar in, bring it up to the boil, let it come down, and use that as your sour mix. Should be stable, should be uh should be good. Should be good. I haven't done it, so we have to test it. It's gonna have a cooked orange flavor, not a fresh orange flavor, but it'll have still like a bright acidity to it.
+
+[51:11] Okay. I'll test it. I'll see how it works. I'd throw a couple peels in anyway, but that should be easy and you can source everything. But I don't know.
+
+[51:16] I'm just talking off the top of my head now. It's also a matter of I mean that there are other logistical issues. I mean, there is actually there's this desert kitchen, so there is there is a stove. I mean, it's a propane, you know, like one burner, but so there's capability to boil. You only need to do it one time.
+
+[51:30] Yeah, but it's also like I, you know, I don't wanna I I you know there's a lot of people that need to be fed in this kitchen, so I can't like commandeer that for the case. I'll tell you what I'll do just for you. When do you have to go? Leaving the last day of August. All right.
+
+[51:42] So we have you know what I'll do? I will take and I will make a non-boiled version of this core cordial in quotes because it's not boiled, and I'll throw it in my dehigh at 110 degrees for a week and we'll see how it tastes. And then we're gonna make a powder. Well, no, I'll take the powder. In other words, like you'll just go out there, you'll buy OJ and sugar out there in Reno, dump the powder, the OJ, and the sugar together, stir it until it dissolves, and see how it tastes.
+
+[52:09] I'll just do a test in my dehydrator and see what happens to it. Yeah, that sounds great. All right. So this is this is uh this is the key. Light to light enough to travel with.
+
+[52:17] In the luggage, yeah. In the luggage. Luggages. Shelf stable. Ish yeah.
+
+[52:22] Enough. Yeah. You know. And uh is approximates the flavor of real citrus. I mean it will it will be real citrus.
+
+[52:30] That's what I'm saying. We're not just gonna approximate, we're gonna make it happen. Okay. We're gonna make it happen. Alrighty.
+
+[52:35] And listen, we're gonna have to do a catch-up show because I did not get to hardly any, I got exactly to one question. We have lots of questions that I know I owe you guys the answers to. Please don't get angry. We still have your questions. We'll get back to them next time on cooking issues.
+
+[52:51] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit.
+
+[53:18] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Asians. Meat work? I don't know. Uh Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn! How y'all doing?
+
+[0:48] Got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez with me. Got Jack in the engineering booth. Oh, we remembered you, Jack. Ah, Jesus! Like last week, like so much is going on that apparently I forgot to mention that Jack was at his usual post in the in the engineering booth.
+
+[1:02] And then apparently what Nastasi's actually doing during the radio show, as opposed to paying attention to what's going on, is texting Jack. No, Jack and I were texting back and forth. I know, that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, you can literally just say that on air. You don't need to say first of all, obviously, since I was talking to Jack throughout the show, just an oversight and not, you know, some sort of like some sort of like Jack no longer counts.
+
+[1:24] Jack Dak no longer counts. Right? Anyways. Call in your questions to a 718497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:33] Hey, listen, you know what? So I'm gonna do this like weather forecast style, because I don't know anything for sure. But next week, I think we have like a 50% chance of McGee. Whoa, really? Yeah, 50% chance of McGee.
+
+[1:44] Like may go up or may go down. You know, it's one of those things it's like like the weather, like if a butterfly flaps its wings somewhere in Indonesia, we might not get McGee next week, but you know, you never know. Why 50? I thought he was coming. He's gonna be in town, and he suggested, hey, maybe I can like, you know hang out before and after the radio show.
+
+[2:01] And so he didn't say he would stay during it, but you know, assuming he doesn't hightail it out, he could uh, you know, hang out, and then we could get some McGee style questions on the air. By the way, uh one quick thing before I get into it, even though I'm uh horrendously late. Was that a call I heard, Jack? Do we have a call? No.
+
+[2:17] Okay. So uh I have this thing that really makes me upset. The people who do it aren't bad people, they're not like purposely enemies of quality, which by the way, Stas and I are still working on the shirt, we just have other problems we've been dealing with first. Um I hate, I don't know. Tell me if I've spoken about this on the air before, but I hate seeing people in medical scrubs on the street.
+
+[2:36] I hate it. Yeah. Have I talked about this, Jack? That you remember? No, not that I remember.
+
+[2:41] I hate it. Why? Uh, okay. So scrubs, right, are the universal symbol that I'm about to do something to your body that requires me to be clean. So I don't want it to be like you know, they're they're designed for like in a surgical situation, right?
+
+[2:55] You scrub up, you you know, you you completely try and scrub. This is me scrubbing, you scrub your hands, wash everything, right? And you have these clothes on that are not your street clothes, right? You put on these booties over your feet, presumably, so that you're not like you know, w trampsing around in, you know, your sneaks that you've been uh uh tracing through like puddles of filth on the street with, and now I am about to do something to you that like you know requires me to not be disgusting. That's what scrubs mean, right?
+
+[3:23] So the opposite of the scrub for a medical professional is the lab coat, right? Or the aka the doctor's coat. That is designed to protect my street clothes against the nasty stuff that might splash on me, right? See what I'm saying? See the difference?
+
+[3:36] So when I see, and and it's compounded by the fact that there's all these people now who have these jobs where they want them to look medically, I'm making those quotey quotes with my hands as air quotes. They want to look medically, so they make them wear scrubs even though they shouldn't be wearing scrubs as part of their uniforms, like Dwayne Reed does this sometimes, right? And I just think it's filthy, you know, seeing it in his feet. You know what, and and this ru the the reason I'm bringing it up on the show is because it also reminds me how much do you hate when you see people walking outside in their whites? Yeah.
+
+[4:03] Right? They're walking outside in their chef's whites. What about the people who have to go outside because they're taking a smoke break? They don't even take their apron off, and they're leaning with their like filthy apron and their chef whites against some nasty, like uh uh what are those things called? Scaffolds that I've seen dogs piss on and people spit on constantly, and then they're smoking, and that's the way they you know, and they're spitting and smoking.
+
+[4:23] This is like, you know, it's not you don't want to see that, right? Welcome to New York. Yeah, but my point is is that like every employer should know to tell their uh folks not to let a customer see them in their whites unless they're cooking. You know what I mean? Because when you're cooking, you're usually pretty on point about not looking like you're like doing something disgusting.
+
+[4:44] Like, but when you're outside, like you know, who knows whether you know you're gonna touch your face with your hands, which is revolting. There's all sorts of things that you know, in terms of cooking, you know what I'm saying? Anyways, people need to get their their uh you know their street clothes separate from their. Is it that people don't provide places to change? Maybe.
+
+[5:02] Or say I don't want to carry it, I don't want to carry. Is that what it is? Maybe. I don't know. Nasty.
+
+[5:06] Am I right? You agree? Yeah. For once, Doz agrees with me. Unusual.
+
+[5:11] Uh all right. We got a lot of questions to get to, so I'm just gonna start start ripping and tearing. Did what about that thing Cliff showed us last week? It's disgusting. I had no idea what that meant.
+
+[5:20] It's disgusting. Just Google ripping and tearing. Disgusting, disgusting. Okay, Jack, have you seen this? Uh no, I'm about to, though.
+
+[5:27] Yeah, there you go. All right. Ken Colgan wrote in on Martinis. Hello, Dave Anastasia. I've only just discovered the show, and I'm going through the podcasts uh in order.
+
+[5:29] I'm up to number 21. Oh my god, so many more for him to listen to. Oh, jeez. So I apologize if somebody's already asked this question. In the British newspaper The Guardian, in March of this year, former 007 uh Roger Moore explains how he makes a dry martini.
+
+[5:48] By the way, where does Moore fit in in your pantheon of uh of Bonds? Anyone? Stas? No, none. You don't like you don't care about Bond?
+
+[5:57] Oh, jeez, you're such a poor quality human. Like, why do you not care about James Bond? You didn't like the movies growing up? No. I never watched them.
+
+[6:03] You never seen a single James Bond? I have, but I just I didn't care for them. You didn't care for any of them? Jack? I've never seen the single James Bond.
+
+[6:11] What the hell's wrong with you people? Yeah. Whoops. Never seen Goldfinger? That would mean you've seen one.
+
+[6:16] You don't know the characters. You don't know Jaws? Roger Roger Moore, like one of the character bad guys from his era, is uh is Jaws, who's uh that giant dude who you might remember as the giant dude from uh Happy Gilmore. You've seen that movie, correct? Mm-hmm.
+
+[6:32] Oh my god, you guys are such you guys you're just saying to get me off this top. I can't believe you don't know the different Roger Moore's. Now I can understand they are kind of absurd sexist weird movies with no plot, but like you know, as a kid seeing all this stuff blow up. Anyway, Roger Moore, did you see Cannonball Run? Uh yeah, a long time ago.
+
+[6:51] He played a character like him in the Cannonball run stuff in in like an old whatever, anyway. So uh wow, I can't believe I'm dealing with two people that I can't pitch anything off of with uh It's the kind of thing I would normally be like, oh yeah, yeah, of course, but I had to come clean and be honest. You know? All right. Well you're familiar with it.
+
+[7:07] Should we take the call. Yeah, all right, but you're familiar with the fact that that James Bond asks absurdly for a shake in Martini, right? Yes, this this I know. Alright, so we can get back to Ken's question after this. It's absurd, it's ridiculous.
+
+[7:14] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, Nastasha and Jackie Molecules. This is Antoine from Boca Ratone. Hey, what's up? How are you guys doing?
+
+[7:29] All right. Alright, cool. I had two questions. One was a simpler one. I was wondering if you've ever made a simple syrup with lactose, and if it's possible at all.
+
+[7:40] No, here's why. Uh you can add some lactose to it, but it's not it's it's like very uh low solubility, so you can't get it up to the levels of sweetness that would be required from a simple syrup. You can dope some lactose in, but remember, like even in ice cream, if you use too much dry milk powder, as it freezes down, you'll get lactose crystallizing, you get those nasty crystals. Okay, cool. And the other one I asked is if there's a more expedited way to make tomko katsu for ramen.
+
+[8:10] Oh, yeah, I don't know. What's the technique you use now? I've never had I've never actually I've sadly never made it my myself. You uh you what do you what do you do? Uh I was thinking of doing like a half pressure cooker sort of technique, perhaps, and then speeding it up some other way, but I haven't seen anything else on it.
+
+[8:27] Yeah, I mean I mean like like first first like pressuring it, then drying it, then frying it. Yeah. I'm sure that'll work. I mean I think the trick with the pressure cooking with it is you're gonna want to use a super hyper concentrated stock, right? And then after you release it, you're gonna want to pull it out and then you're gonna want to let it uh uh flash off hot to get rid of some of the moisture on the outside, but not so hot that you flash the moisture out of the inside, right?
+
+[8:56] But you're gonna need to get pick up your pickup on the outside of the of the thing. What so what's your typical what's a typical dip on this panko, right? Panko with what? Like an egg uh what what's the what's the dip on it? Is it flour, then some sort of egg dip, then panko?
+
+[9:10] Pretty much. I mean, just uh sometimes I'll mess around with some milks I'll add in there as well, they're a heavy cream or I'll mess around with different ones each time, but pretty much around that. You might want to get some batter bind or some crisp coat in your initial flour dip to uh increase adhesion and stop uh oil penetration down, but uh there's no reason that won't work. Just use a very concentrated stock and reuse it a bunch of times to do your pressure cooking, and I think you're not gonna degrade the flavor of it at all, and it'll be super quickity quick. Or you could just use, you know, one of the many cuts that's going to be like tender as is, and then you can basically just fry from raw, you know.
+
+[9:46] Depend depends on what cut you're gonna use, obviously. Cool. I don't know. I mean, you're always the man of the answer, so I didn't know if if you had ever made it before, but it sounds good. Yeah, try that out.
+
+[9:55] All right, let us know how it works. All right, thank you very much. All right. Uh back to this martini. So in the British newspaper The Guardian, in March I always forget when you go on a British airplane, they offer you two newspapers.
+
+[10:09] I can't remember what they are, right? But you always the what you always need to ask is you say, which one is the racist one? Because they offer you two and one's like some horrible racist rag. And yeah, yeah. And I can never remember which one's which.
+
+[10:21] So I don't know if the Guardian's the racist one or the not racist one. I don't know. Someone will tell me. But literally, like one time the last time I was flying over there, the stewardess was like, and the guy next to me is like, oh, that's the racist one. Get the other one.
+
+[10:33] I was like, oh, good, thank you. You know what I mean? They all know. And the people who get it know. They're like, Yes, I would prefer the racist one.
+
+[10:39] Um okay. Uh in the British newspaper The Guardian, uh former 007 um Roger Moore explains how he makes uh a dry martini you have to be uh uh uh a Sean Connery kind of a person no you don't you like Sean Connery? Did you like Indiana Jones and the in the last crusade? Was that your favorite Indiana Jones? I think so.
+
+[10:58] Then you like Sean Connery. Okay. Um put uh an egg cup measure of Neuprat driver mouth into a V-shaped martini glass first mistake uh and swirl it around to flavor the glass uh an egg thing an egg cup it's a I had to look it up an A cup stores an egg the Brits the British eat a lot of soft boiled eggs and then they break the tops off and you have to hold it in an egg cup. Stas is making an egg cup face which is like imagine the vegan face but with like just like a huge heaping side dose of derision and like scorn for whole cultures. Right?
+
+[11:36] Yeah yeah anywho an egg cup is about 40 mils which is uh you know like a an ounce and a quarter or something around there so you got that in your mind first of all it's a huge waste of uh of well anyway put an egg cup measure of Neuprat uh driver mouth into a uh V-shaped martini glass and swirl it around to flavor the glass V-shaped martini glasses are kind of self-limiting drunk machines because like the drunker you are the more you spill it before it gets to your face and it's like slosh it around. So in a standing cocktail party it's almost impossible to get too hosed on a V-shaped martini glass before it starts spilling everywhere and people send you home. That's the only good thing I have to say about that glass style. Okay, and swirl it around to flavor the glass. Then tip the vermouth into the cocktail shaker, swirl it around, and then throw away what's left.
+
+[12:21] You just spent like, you know, an ounce and a quarter or so of vermouth. Like it doesn't take that much to swirl around a glass, but what if? Would have. Would have. Then put a couple of ice cubes into a shaker, add your measure of gin, and so on and so on, and presumably shake and not stirred.
+
+[12:37] So uh first of all, my you know what my theory on shaking not stirred for James Bond is? That he uh because he's a super spy, like he doesn't want to get too wasted, right? Because he might have to shoot someone at any time, and so he like has his uh martinis horribly watered down. And he doesn't actually, he's probably like a little bit of a uh of a nance and doesn't want like too much like uh, you know, flavor, so he's like trying to get rid of as much flavor as he can. So he's British, so he has to use gin.
+
+[13:07] He can't go uh, you know, like he has well, you know. I got James Bond though, he does use vodka or gin, I always forget. Anyways, but you know, Roger Moore, actual British, has to go, you know, gin, because it's a British thing, and just shake it until there's like no alcohol or flavor left, and then you could pound a bunch of them and still shoot uh Hervey Village in the head, you know what I mean? Or like you know, intercept odd job when he's throwing his super sharp hat at you. Anyways, that's my theory.
+
+[13:31] Uh obviously it's gonna be horribly overdiluted if you cook it that way, but it will be cold. Uh as another as another thing. Anyway, someone in the comment section said you may as well just drink a glass of neat gin. Not true. Not true.
+
+[13:42] You may as well uh j uh drink a glass of neat gin with a boat ton of water in it, right? Because you you made it real cold uh watery when you did that. And I have to say that it looks pretty sensible comment to me. Hence the question Does the tiny amount of vermouth that would cling to the sides of the cocktail glass in the shaker actually alter the flavor of the drink if you then add something as strong as gin? Remember, his gin ain't strong anymore because it's been watered to hell because he's shaking that sucker and not stirring it.
+
+[14:06] Wouldn't gin shaking with ice be much quicker to make, and unless one has an incredibly refined palate tastes pretty much exactly the same. Yours, Ken Colgan. No. You'd taste it. I mean, remember, it's just uh, you know, water and gin, and so you would taste it.
+
+[14:20] I mean, like, look, uh, the other famous classical rinse drinks, I don't believe in rinsing for martinis because I think you should just add vermouth. I think the reason people want such a small amount of vermouth is that they're using like really old oxidized vermouth, and uh, you know, if you were to open a fresh bottle, um, you know, I don't use Noy Pratt in mine, but like if you were to open a fresh bottle of like a high quality vermouth or whatever you like the flavor of, uh, it would be good in a larger amount than that. But the answer is yes, uh, rinsing does make a difference. Most notably, the most notable rinse drink that um human beings make uh who aren't super spies is uh the Sazerac, which has a rinse of well, Arab Sant or Absinthe on the inside of the glass, and it's it's quite noticeable if you don't uh if you you know it's quite noticeable. And so, especially on the on the aromatic side.
+
+[15:07] So it does make a difference. I don't know about rinsing the the tin with it. That just seems kind of that just seems kind of dumb. It's the equivalent of adding probably like uh, you know, I don't know, five drops, six drops, or something. We'll make a difference though.
+
+[15:20] You know, I wouldn't make a difference if you were to do something that's incredibly strong flavored, but you know, gin that's had the crap shaken out of it isn't not gonna be a problem. Uh Jeremy Gabbard writes in, I've officially caught up gang. What do you think about that as a thing? Gang. It gets all of us.
+
+[15:36] I like that. I like that the last guy called me Jackie and Molecules. It's pretty strong, right? Well, you know him from Boca Raton. He calls in all the time.
+
+[15:42] Yeah. I'm just I'm just liking the name switch here. Well, well, maybe as we're coming out of commercial, you can play the uh you can play the Jackie Molecules Tom. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Jackie Molecules.
+
+[15:51] Uh I'm officially caught up on the back catalog of episodes after discovering your podcast a couple of months ago. Man, can you imagine that? No. No. Uh I'd like to dip my toe into low temperature cooking, but I haven't heard too much about uh circulators.
+
+[15:59] Looking at the ANOVA precision cooker. Is that what they really call it? A Nova Precision Cooker. Oh, ANOVA. Yeah, but like precision cooker instead of circulator.
+
+[16:15] Why would you come up with a new name? I don't know. I mean it does. I don't know. Precision cooker.
+
+[16:21] Um the Sancerre and the Nomaku. Nomaku, famously made by Wee Pop, Bam Soupy Pot. That's actually his actual last name is Supapipot. I love Bam. Bam's a good man.
+
+[16:33] Uh for home use. And as long as I take into account my water volume slash heating capacity, am I going to miss out anything that the pricier models offer? Which the pricier models, like, you know, I guess we're talking like the uh the eight hundred dollar um the eight hundred dollar um Stas, help me out here. Polyscience. Yeah, that P Press makes.
+
+[16:54] Or the the slightly heavier duty one, the old lab style one. I still love my old metal style uh poly science guy with the metal bottoms because I'm a very um abusive and I sent so we did the we shot the uh Thanksgiving turkey again, the one that you know we did have done a million times with the with the uh the the bionic turkey with the bones structure. And for that one, the metal guy really helps because it's easier to clean the oil out of the metal one and pipe the oil around inside of the bird, etc. etc. Anyway, um I gonna miss out anything that the pricer models offer?
+
+[17:26] I've read uh Kenji uh Lopez Alt's head to head uh uh which is a couple like a year and a half old now on Sirius Eats about the um different circulators, but I'm curious if there's any of the three that you particularly love or hate. Thanks in advance, Jeremy Gabbard. Okay. First of all, I went and read the serious eats uh head to head, and there's a couple of things that I mean, look, any head to head that someone writes when someone is sent three circulators or three anything, dishwashers, computers, whatever, you have to take with a little bit of a grain of salt the evaluations that someone does right off the bat because they don't take into account kind of what's happening uh year in, year out, and also what happens with a number of different uh users uh use it. So, you know, you can all go read it, but I'll just comment on on some of the things that the and and by the way, I don't have a boat ton of a I I own a sans air and I own uh owned a nomaku.
+
+[18:19] Peter Kim stole it from me, uh, but uh whatever, I owned one of the first generation, but I've not had any experience with the second generation nomikus, which are uh uh a little bit different. Um but I'll try to I'll try to go through I mean and they all work. They all heat water up and they're and they're pretty accurate. But um what uh what Kenji said, uh one of the things he said it to worry about is um evaporation during cooking and therefore like how how big a difference there is between the minimum and maximum water levels in uh in a circulator. So for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, like uh circulators have a heating element and a pump.
+
+[18:55] And if if either of those things goes dry, then uh then you're in in deep, deep trouble. So they all have sensors in them to stop that from happening, but also all units have a minimum water level on the on the pump and the and and uh and a maximum. The maximum is to protect the electronics, and the minimum is to is to prevent uh overheating or lack of circulation. Now the the the thing that that people don't list is how effective something is at circulating uh below its minimum depth. So for instance, if you were to put a uh an immersion circulator into the ocean, it's not gonna circulate the stuff at the bottom because the pump really only circulates the stuff at the top.
+
+[19:29] So a factor that nobody takes into account is how well it circulates a bath. Let's say your bath was a stock pot uh and your circulator is only hanging out in the top six inches or seven inches of the stock pot, but the stock pot's got another foot below it. Well, how's it doing there? And especially a problem when you talk about that kind of circulation is the fact that that hot uh stuff rises. And so the stuff that you're circulating and keeping hot tends to tend to rise and the and the lower temperature stuff tends to settle to the bottom.
+
+[20:00] So how effective something is at agitating a tall pot is gonna be a problem, especially if you do a lot of your cooking in things like stockpots. But anyways, uh having a wide range uh of of uh minimum to maximum depth is important if long cooking foods are on the agenda. 150 degrees this is Kenji writing, 150 degrees uh uh water in a metal pot with a 10-inch diameter and two gallons of water will drop in height by about an inch every eight hours due to evaporation in my apartment. Uh and then he says covering the top with foil or plastic wrap, don't use foil, use plastic wrap. Covering the top with plastic uh plastic wrap can cut this down, but the possibility that the water uh level will drop below the minimum line during extended cook is a very real one.
+
+[20:40] Not listen, you should never run a circulator for any length of time that's not covered. I'm gonna go back and say this again. You should never run a circulator uh without uh covering it uh for any length of time. It's just really, really bad practice. Okay.
+
+[20:57] So I mean like and this is one of the first things I teach people. So for me, you know, like how much the water level is gonna drop is not that much of an issue because I know that I'm always gonna be running with uh with plastic on the top. The exception being if you're running it during service. If you're running it during service and you're gonna be going in and out, then and you're just doing a re-therm bath, then maybe you don't need to, but um, whatever. Uh, the other thing is uh that I thought was kind of a little bit misleading on the on the review there is uh the talking about the clips uh on on the back of it.
+
+[21:29] Uh Kenji liked the screw clamp. You know, remember the old screw clamps that you used to use on the poly sciences? Yeah, I hate them, right? I like that's why the the newer poly sciences have this quick release uh guys that pop out because the uh I you know Kenji's worried that you're gonna that the clip's gonna fail and you're gonna drop the circulator into the water. The only time in you know the well over a decade that I've been using circulators on a consistent basis that I've ever dropped one in water was because I was so angry trying to yank the sucker off because I had to unscrew the thing in back and it kept on catching on the lid of the uh on the back side of the rim of the cambro.
+
+[22:04] I was like yanking on it because I was so angry. You know how I get stuff. I was yanking on it and I I pulled it up, yanked it so hard that it tipped and fell into the water bath. And that's the only time I've ever dropped it, and it was because it was firmly clamped. I regularly rip the clamps out of the uh the screw things out of the back and just place it over the edge.
+
+[22:21] So I'm not really worried uh uh about uh about that. And the other thing that's not taken into account in the review that's very important is you have to ask yourself what um what are you going to put the thing into, right? So uh one thing that one thing that like if you look at for instance the old metal style poly science versus the newer uh plastic style poly science, uh the newer plastic style one is narrower, and the Nomiku is very, very narrow. And what that means is it takes up less space in your circulating bath. So you have to ask yourself kind of what you're gonna be circulating in and whether you're gonna be pushing the limits of the bath, because the amount of space that the circulator takes up in the bath is a very real limitation for a lot of people who are cooking in smaller, like uh smaller vessels on uh their counter.
+
+[22:59] Yeah. But they all work. Uh I found uh the San Serra doesn't like to run pure oil. Uh found that uh when we were doing a Harvard lecture. Um, but you know, that's about it.
+
+[23:17] Uh yeah, but again, if you have the money and durability is the ultimate thing, then the old school metal poly science guys, I think are still pretty tough to beat. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Got a caller. Caller, you are on the air.
+
+[23:31] Hey Dave, uh got a quick question. This bay it's homebrew based, but it probably applies to a lot of cooking. It has to do with gelatin using it as a clarifier. Sure. I've been I arguing for years with my fellow homebrewers, and they insist that if you you know you dissolve it in some hot water before you add it, and they say if you bring it to a boil, it's useless, it deactivates the gelatin.
+
+[23:54] Um but I've always brought to a boil just to sanitize it, never had a problem, and I figured you would be the one to say whether this is hogwash or not. What do you think? Why would bringing it to a boil hurt it? That's how they make gelatin. Like what's the argument about not boiling it?
+
+[24:10] The the homebrewers, I guess in the old literature and they still cling to it, says that if you bring the the water to a boil that's got the gelatin in, it somehow deactivates the gelatin and won't work anymore. That's crazy, right? I mean, it seems crazy. Is it some special gelatin? Is it some super hyper fancy gelatin?
+
+[24:28] No, just regular Nox gelatin. Hogwash, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hogwash. Yeah.
+
+[24:34] I mean, I don't know. Look, look, look, maybe there's I could see that there's some sort of like gelatin solution that you could buy that's not set that is like, you know, the where the gelatin is, it's some particular way, but then you wouldn't want to heat it at all because you'd mess with the configuration. Like the solubility of gelatin, uh, it solubilizes at a pretty low temperature, right? But then, you know, bringing it to an extended boil, if you boil the hell out of it, you'll start to hydrolyze it. But let's not forget, how do you make how do you make gelatin in a stock, right?
+
+[25:05] You boil uh bones and uh and meat to uh break the collagen down into gelatin, right? I mean that's that's what you do. I mean I've boiled uh you know, I uh I mean no, I don't think that's a problem. I think extended boiling in acidic condition, because you're boiling it just in plain water, right? Yeah, just plain water.
+
+[25:27] Yeah. I mean extended boiling in acidic environments will will hydrolyze the gelatin for sure. But I've boiled gelatin many times and had it still set or you know, I've you know, I I uh maybe f I I don't I don't I don't get it. I don't I don't get it. I don't understand.
+
+[25:43] Me neither. Is there any actual literature on it though? What's that? Is there any like scientific literature on it? No, you know how home brewers they often just pick things up from you know other related things like you know, skimming the top off your beer because they do it with stock, you know, and uh they just uh I think just extrapolate it over and they don't really have any real reason to do it, and then they get told a couple of times and then they just stick with it, whether it's you know, never questioning it.
+
+[26:12] Alright, well if any pro brewers out there listening, uh, you know, um send us in some information and we'll we'll see. Uh love the show. All right, thanks a lot. Uh let's take a quick commercial and come back. Hello out there.
+
+[26:37] It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway Butcher Counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do.
+
+[26:56] Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts.
+
+[27:36] It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at Heritage Foods USA.com for more information. You have to eat them to save them.
+
+[27:54] So what are we? Are we gonna play Jackie Molecules on the way out since we're running out of time? Oh, yeah, we we can do that. That's fine. Yeah, when we leave, we'll just do an outro on Jackie Molecules because it's the greatest thing that's ever happened.
+
+[28:05] By the way. The now legendary ringtone, as I'm being told by listeners, we got so many emails this week for it. Really? Oh, yeah. It's taken off.
+
+[28:13] It's going viral. It's better than better better than my uh my ringtones. Like nostalgia's you're mean to me. Uh, but I don't even need to like play my phone because it's just my voice saying you're mean to me. Uh anyway, Caleb Sexton sent us in some of these super Jack, you can have some of these too.
+
+[28:29] Um Super High Bricks apricots, this new variety, I think out of California. And uh he dehydrates them, but they start out at like twenty something bricks, which is like super high sugar. Uh and so you know it's how a stas is eating. I know how super sweet they are at at the end. But the thing is I think uh what we should do before you dehydrate them to turn them into real flavor bombs is just throw a little more acid into it.
+
+[28:51] What do you think, Stas? Don't they just dehydrate on their own out there in California now? You're from there, you tell me. Because of the I'm saying like no water. Isn't it easier for them to like No, I mean acid not for I mean, uh I mean acid.
+
+[29:09] Well, not lime necessarily. I'd have to look up whatever the acid base of apricot is, but I'm saying other words, the sweetness is so high that it could stand more acidity to back it up. No, I like it like this. But I'm saying before it dehydrates, cut it, sprinkle it the acid, like kind of go into it so you get the level exactly. You're saying you wouldn't want a little more acid?
+
+[29:27] No. You like it just like this? Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[29:30] And what do you think about these as opposed to blends? See, I like blends because they're super high acid. Yeah, I like these better. Yeah. Jackie should come in and try one while we're doing this.
+
+[29:38] Um I can't talk because I'm eating apricots. Pass it in. Pass it in. Um by the way, Jack, do you think sharp and hot should be said with like a Boston style accent? I think it should.
+
+[29:52] Shop, hot. Shop. Yes. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[29:56] Um uh Ethan uh Kusher uh Kushner wrote in uh a while ago about lentil tofu. I think I talked about it. So if I forgot to talk about lentil tofu, because we had so many weeks where I like I would start answering things and then stopped. If I've talked, if I've not talked about lentil tofu and the possibilities, please uh just you know, whatever, email us back and let us know. And uh we'll do it.
+
+[30:17] The same about like Alex from Toronto wrote in about carrots. I think I talked about that too, about like uh stiffening carrots and whether that's a known reaction in other vegetables. I think I talked about it, but it's hard to know because I can't tell. Uh Elliot Papineau wrote in and he wants to say, can Dave talk about the awesomeness of French penny? Frenchipenny.
+
+[30:36] You like that stuff, Saz? What is it again? That's that that's the okay. So you know how like you're not a marzipan fan, right? But like if you add eggs to it and other stuff to de-stiffen it a little bit and they make it pipable, that's the stuff that's like inside of a king cake.
+
+[30:48] You ever eat king cakes? No. You know what a king cake is though. Unlike uh like Mardi Gras. Oh, yeah.
+
+[30:54] Right before the king cake is like got the sugar with the colors, and inside of it is that kind of like like more creamy almond crap that's not uh mart's pen. You like that stuff? I guess so. I love that stuff. I want what I want to do is start making things like that.
+
+[31:07] Because like what what his question came in? I'm like, damn, you know what? Like, we have the capability to grind this stuff down. We should do that with uh by the way, Caleb Stas is loving your apricot. She's sitting here munchicating on them.
+
+[31:21] Um is it we should do that with pecans? Wouldn't that be good? Mm-hmm. That should be that'd be good stuff, right? Alright.
+
+[31:28] Anyway, so Elliot, I don't have too much to say because I don't make it that much myself. I think it's a good product. But I will uh uh now you've got me uh stoked on the idea of uh of of uh marzipan. By the way, did we ever talk about the agar noodles? Because I s I know there's an agar noodle question, but I but I didn't uh get to it.
+
+[31:46] Whoever wrote in the agar noodle question, this is right back to me and I'll see. Okay. Um Hey Cooking Issues team, I have a hydrocolloid question. My death row meal is spaghetti with chopped garden tomatoes. Do you you hate tomatoes, right?
+
+[31:59] Yeah, me too. Someone twit tweeted me in uh today and said, Can you eat the blossoms of uh the tomato plant? And I was like, it might have too much of the tomatoine, which is you know, whatever the alkaloid that's related to like solanine or whatever, the Solonaceae style uh like alkaloid that's in tomato plants, which is why you're not supposed to eat a boat ton of the green tomato stuff. You know what I'm talking about? Why would you want to eat that?
+
+[32:20] Well, that's my point. I was like frowny face, every tomato blossom you rip off is one less tomato you get. Like who has that many tomatoes in their life? Not me. Not me.
+
+[32:30] Are you how are your tomatoes growing? Good, they're all green right now. Yeah, nice, strong. Anyway, uh my death row meal is spaghetti with chopped garden tomatoes, basil, garlic, oil, and salt. I make this often in the summertime when perfect tomatoes are available.
+
+[32:45] Part of the process involves chopping and salting the raw tomatoes to draw out moisture that would otherwise water down the pasta. What do you think about watering down the pasta sauce? I'm good. Hate? Yes.
+
+[32:55] Hate. Uh watering down the pasta. The liquid drawn out of the tomatoes is quite tasty, and I hate uh that it is no longer part of the sauce. I figured if I could thicken uh thicken it, it would adhere to the spaghetti and increased deliciousness. Uh my hydrocolloid knowledge is essentially zero, but I tried Xanthan, and that's what I had.
+
+[33:12] It thickened the tomato water nicely and all me also made me want to puke when I ate it because it was so snotty. That's a technical term. Snotty. Yeah, I would not use Xanthan. Can you imagine like a Xanthan pasta?
+
+[33:23] Nastasia's making her I'm about to puke face with the with the Xanthan pasta. Um I also don't want a heat slash reduce the water to avoid losing the raw tomato flavor. So what would you recommend uh and in what percentage to thicken the tomato water so it can be added back to the chopped tomatoes on the pasta? Thanks, dreaming of summer meals with my favorite pasta, soon with more tastiness, uh Jason. I think you're kind of in like you're you're hoeing a tough road here, uh Jason.
+
+[33:49] Because uh to thicken the stuff appreciably, uh you're gonna have to add a uh a boat a boat ton of stuff. I would use um I would use pre-gelatinized agglomerated starch is what I would use. And then you you're basically thicking and thickening it the way that cooking that with a starch. Uh so I would use uh like ultra spurse. You want to get a spurse and not a tex.
+
+[34:14] Um the reason I would use starch is because you need to use relatively large percentages of uh of starch, which means that it is it will diminish the flavor somewhat, but it's also super easy to dose in and dose out. You're not gonna go way over. And if you use a uh a it takes a couple of minutes, you don't want to add it all right away because it takes a couple minutes to fully hydrate, but it's really easy to use in kind of cook's measurements, like just like sprinkling a pinch in and getting it to do what you want. Whereas most other hydrocolloids, if you were gonna use like uh, you know, guar or an LBG, I think you're not gonna get we're used to starch thickened sauces, and so I think it's gonna be I think that might be the way to go in this situation, but still I don't know if you're gonna have as good a result as you would get out of, for instance, pulling the pasta a couple minutes earlier, doing uh or you know, a couple of seconds earlier, doing a very quick drain and then immediately tossing it with the tomato juice that comes out, because that tomato juice, remember you salted it, it's salty too, right? So that's gonna increase the salt level of your of your pasta.
+
+[35:14] But if you just leave everything else out, like you know, the tomatoes that you have out, toss the pasta uh in the um in the straight tomato water uh like and just pull it a couple of seconds earlier. I think it'll absorb a good wouldn't you think it would absorb a good bit of that stuff? And so I think if you pull like uh like you know, 30, I don't know how how long is the spaghetti cook? Eight or seven? Seven.
+
+[35:39] Seven? Depends. Yeah, for you and Mark, it's like it cooks for like two minutes. Yeah. But anyway, pull it like a good like I would say maybe like thirty seconds uh earlier than you normally would.
+
+[35:49] Then uh make sure that you uh toss the stuff in, but keep it hot. Like I would put the bowl back. Something that I uh will do is I'll cook my uh pasta in uh in a colander inside of my pot, right? Do you do that, Stas? So that way I can just pull the colander out.
+
+[36:04] No, I don't have that. Anyway, I pull the colander out, you do the the fast drain, then you put it into the bowl, and if you keep the bowl warm, like over the water that's been boiling, it makes a starchy mess. But um keeping it warmer as you're tossing in the uh the tomato water will help it absorb more as opposed to when it but but let it flash off. If you cover it, it'll keep warm and absorb more, but it also won't flash off moisture, and their whole goal here is to add more liquid while it's flashing off moisture, yes, Doz? Then add your tomatoes afterwards and go.
+
+[36:33] Uh the s super baller technique, and this is gonna be have to be the last thing I say, I still have to get to uh I still have to get to Steven from uh Moscow on uh on ovens and you know he's trying to get the Vizega, the uh the thing. And uh Alex from Sam it's too late, he already visited San Francisco, but McGee will be here so we can talk about it. And we'll finally get to Michael and his blown uh Ziploc bags. But the most baller technique would be to go drop a cool 10 grand on a really nice roto vap setup and just rotovap that tomato stuff down so that you get real hyper concentrated tomato uh you know, like you can make almost like a puree out of it uh in a rotovap without ever heating it. Uh cook the pasta and toss that in.
+
+[37:15] It'll be the most tomatoy pasta ever cooking issues. Well, I'm gonna play this Jackie Molecules on the way out. Jackie Molecules. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[37:54] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[38:24] You got to tell your mouth! You wanna out with me again.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley, host of Full Service Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwit Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] If you like this show, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Bernard Speezer in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? But also in the studio, we have special guests.
+
+[0:46] We have Jack Shram from the Bar. Say hello, Jack. Hi, Dave. How are you doing? We have Jackie Molecules in the Engineering Booth.
+
+[0:51] Yep. And Harold McGee. Gee, gee, gee, gee, here from California. What's up? Call your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:01] That's 718 4972128. How are you doing, Harold? Very well, thanks, Dave. Nice. And Jack, how'd you survive?
+
+[1:07] Jack was at the uh Jack did the uh cocktail apprentice program. Jack, not I'm just gonna call you molecules. Yeah, I'll be molecules too. Molecules, yeah. Or Jackie, yeah, Jack and Molecules.
+
+[1:15] So Jack Shram, bartender at Booker and Dax, Intrepid Bartender Booker and Dax, uh, was just part of the cocktail apprentice program at Tales of the Cocktail. Uh, just got back. Did you survive? Just barely, Dave. Yeah, uh, it's a they're a that's a hard-living group of folk.
+
+[1:29] It certainly is. Yeah. But it was it was a lot of fun. I learned such an incredible amount. It was a fantastic experience.
+
+[1:36] Nice. Mm-hmm. Nice. Uh all right. So, Harold, uh, you got you got anything to uh anything to report?
+
+[1:43] What brings you to our fine, fine city? Uh, I came to uh visit the CIA up in Hyde Park. Uh, they have a new culinary science program, so I was uh finding out about that. And then came down to the city to catch up on what's happening here. Now, culinary science as opposed to food science is more like your alley, the study of delicious.
+
+[1:59] Uh yeah. The the study of what cooks do to make food for people rather than what uh uh industrial factories do to make food for people. Uh I see, I see. Industrial industrial factories. All right.
+
+[2:16] So uh let's get to some uh questions. Let's see what we have here. Stas, did we answer the question on root beer? Does anyone remember whether I answered the question on root beer? I don't think so.
+
+[2:26] Oh man. All right. Uh Rob Handel see I never know whether I've answered it. Nan's here, and I just got to answer it again anyway, so I'm sorry if I already answered it, answered it. Um Rob Handel wrote in and he said, I was the guy that called today about running root beer in a draft system.
+
+[2:39] Of course, that was like a month ago that he actually called because I'm so behind. Uh but I had bad cell service and got cut off. I'm aware that the pot uh the persistence of root beer flavor, and I'm willing to dedicate a corny keg or two, as well as the lines to the cause. I've had a couple of main concerns other than that. The recipe I developed has about 20 herbs, roots and spices, and generates a lot of sediment.
+
+[2:58] What's the best way to clarify this so I won't have major filming issues? I'm also working with space constraints. Would I be able to safely sanitize the corny keg, pour in the boiling soda base, then seal it and keep it at room temperature? Would I need to uh sulfide it to ensure it is safe? I would run it through a cold plate to chill and ensure carbonation.
+
+[3:14] Any other concerns? I should be aware about when setting up the system. I'm looking to have root beer and sparkling water on tap, then rotating a seasonal soda on the third line. Um you are talking about doing a hot fill uh and uh not to be confused with Nastasia's friend fill, right? Uh and uh I think that's gonna work fine.
+
+[3:32] You see any problems with that? Like as long as the yeast is killed, uh the CO2 line's not gonna bring yeast into it, and as long as you get no back contamination or backflow, you shouldn't have any problem with the hot fill. Just wait for it to be super cold before you carbonate it. Yeah? Anyone?
+
+[3:46] Anyone? Anyone? You know that stuff. Yeah. Uh you want to if I'll give I'll give you a couple words of advice since that's why you're here, right?
+
+[3:54] Uh boil the lids, make sure everything that touches the inside, including the lids, is uh is boiled, pour it in boiling, cap it immediately, flip it upside down and let it boil the top of the thing before it goes, and then if uh possible, blow a little bit of stuff through the tubes to make sure the tubes are sanitized while the stuff is still hot to kill everything. Ain't nothing that kills you gonna grow in the soda. What's gonna happen is you're gonna get yeasts and other sorts of kind of things that just make it either uh either reduce its residual sugar, increase its alcohol content, or make it nasty, right? Yeah. I mean funk funky fruity nasty, not not horrific, but yeah, not what you want.
+
+[4:37] Yeah. Root beer ain't your funky fruity nasty kind of kind of beverage. Yeah. Although funky fruity nasty, can you make a cocktail called funky fruity nasty? Absolutely, Dave.
+
+[4:45] I was already thinking about it. Nice. Uh got a caller whenever you're ready. All right, so I'll finish this and we'll get the color. So uh uh on the foaming, um, okay, I'm just gonna put this out here.
+
+[4:56] You are, as we used to say in the trade, SOL. Like uh, like first of all, anything out of a keg like that, uh you're gonna have more foaming than you would uh out of like a bottle service. But also all all those barks, not only uh you have to get it 100% clear, which you could totally clear, meaning no particles, which you could do through a number of filtration methods, or even probably with uh a clarification step if you had to. But that's not gonna get rid of the kind of surface active crap that's in barks uh and roots that causes things to kind of foam up on you. So it's like it's just you're an inherently foamy kind of situation.
+
+[5:32] The good news is is that root beer is a relatively low carbonation, foamy product anyway. That's why it's root beer and not root IPA. Yeah, you know what I mean? No? Yeah?
+
+[5:46] All right, caller, you were on the air. Hey, um I heard last week that Harold McGee might be on, and I had a question that I thought he could perhaps answer. Um I've been uh searing a lot of my food lately with the Searzol. Uh and I was reading on on food and cooking, um, specifically the section on uh I think it's heterocyclic amines that are created during the searing process or high temperature cooking. You should win a prize.
+
+[6:10] That's the first time that's been ever words I can use here. Go ahead. You're the first time the first person that's ever mentioned heterocyclic amines on the show, and so I believe you deserve a prize. Go ahead. Okay.
+
+[6:20] Um so I was just wondering, is it smart like from a health standpoint to pair seared foods with something that has antioxidants like a drink or something? Um or is it just it's it's not that um that important. Ah, so um I would say, I mean, of course, there really isn't good scientific information about a question like that. We can only sort of extrapolate from the knowledge that hydro heterocyclic amines are formed in high temperature processing of foods, and they seem not to be good for us, and so you probably want to minim minimize intake. And then also um I'm not sure that uh antioxidants per se are gonna be helpful because these toxins are toxic not by oxidizing things, it's by reacting with uh with important molecules like DNA and RNA.
+
+[7:13] Uh but I think what it does make sense to do is to eat that food with uh, as you said, uh uh uh a good drink with all kinds of complicated other uh materials in it, but also vegetables and fruits, which have all kinds of stuff that we really don't know about, but that is probably going to be there if not to counteract the activity of something like heterocyclic amines, then at least dilute them so that they're less likely to cause problems. So I think uh bottom line, just having uh uh a meal with lots of different uh elements to it along with your wonderfully seared food is the is the way to go. Yeah, uh my favorite uh would be a glass of uh uh nice glass of red wine. Yeah, yeah. To start.
+
+[8:00] Yeah, yeah. Which uh it may or may not do wonders for your heart, but it does wonders for your soul. Yes. Right? All righty.
+
+[8:10] Well, thanks so much for calling in. Yeah, thank you. All right. All right, bye. Uh all right.
+
+[8:14] So here's uh we didn't answer the agar noodle question, yeah. I might as well get to it. Remember the old agar noodles that people used to make, like Johnny used to make them and uh Faron made them and they would get keep the agar kind of in a warm state and then put it through a tube in a ice bath. Remember that? Yeah.
+
+[8:30] So I think someone's writing about that, but let's find out. I didn't even look it up because I was like, I got noodles, I don't need to research that. I can do that in my sleep. I had a question about a recipe on piecing together. I wanted to make spaghetti and red sauce.
+
+[8:41] By the way, spaghetti, I had a c line I'm uh no more vegetti comments today, although I had some people write me in. Um I wanted to make a spaghetti and have you used a vegetti? No. No. No?
+
+[8:52] Jack, do you own a vegetti? I do not own a vegetti. I do not own a vegetti. I use one. I don't own it.
+
+[9:00] Uh no, it's like uh you know what it is though, right? No, I don't. Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh.
+
+[9:09] It's time for the talk. All right. I said I wouldn't do it. But what happened? Okay.
+
+[9:13] So, like, you know the you know the uh like the the Ben Renner things that like you can take a potato and turn it into like a long strip or it can make shreds. Yep. So if you sh if you were to take that, make it less expensive, shape it like uh like an oversized pencil sharpener that could, let's say, take a cucumber-sized thing, or even maybe even a daikon. So the uh and you could twist it and it turns said uh stick-shaped uh uh item, veg, into uh strips. And so someone was like, those are kind of like noodles.
+
+[9:47] Maybe I could use it like a noodle. And so instead of just calling them kind of threads or filaments, decided to say they are spaghetti, which in fact they're not the same shape as spaghetti. Spaghetti is what shape, Stas? What shape is spaghetti? No, no, what shape cross-section?
+
+[10:01] Oh, circle. Yeah, it's round, it's round. Does the vegetti produce round things? So does it produce spaghetti? No.
+
+[10:07] Could it ever produce spaghetti? No. Because spaghetti is not merely pasta in a long form, people. Spaghetti has a freaking cross section. But someone in there in their infinite wisdom decided that this is just like a spaghetti.
+
+[10:20] Maybe they're thinking of spaghetti squash, which by the way, I think used as a spaghetti. Whatever, I'm not gonna get into it because everyone here likes spaghetti squash. I'm surrounded by spaghetti squash lovers. But uh, and they decided they were gonna call it a vagetti. A vagetti.
+
+[10:35] And the the non-brand name of vagetti is spiralizer. And so people have written a lot of people, actually, as it turns out, have written cookbooks on spiralizing vegetables because the vegeti people won't let you let them use their name because they don't want to. We look, we at Vegetti don't want to become the Kleenex of spiralizers, alright? You know what I mean? That's basically what's happening.
+
+[10:57] So you but you've never used one? You any thoughts? I need to go out and get one. Wow. I'm sure someone listening to this would be more than happy to send a vegetti.
+
+[11:09] You know, are they a sponsor yet? What's going on here? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[11:15] Get in touch with us. Yeah. Anyways, I had a question about recipe I'm piecing together. I wanted to make spaghetti and red sauce with the flavors of a tequila sunrise. Jack, give us the specs for a tequila sunrise.
+
+[11:25] Techilla sunrise, uh two ounces repo. I don't know, Dave. We don't do sunrises at the bar. Yeah, what is it? Yeah, right?
+
+[11:34] Yeah. But you have to keep it all layered so that it looks like is it sunrise or sunset? Sunrise? Sunrise, yeah. See, it should really be like if it's sunrise, it should really be like cremivet.
+
+[11:44] Because sunrises are not they're like bluish gray sunrise. I don't think that would be uh incredibly delicious, though, with the creme vet. I think I detest it. Uh in general. I think it's uh uh I mean like I'm sure somebody likes it.
+
+[12:03] Uh not me. Like, do you like creme vet? Not especially. Carol, do you like it, yeah? Nope.
+
+[12:09] Do you like fruity pebbles? Fruity pebbles. Oh, you don't know fruity pebbles? I don't. Oh, it's it's the Fred Flintstone branded uh cereal that looks like aquarium rocks, like multicolored aquarium rocks.
+
+[12:20] Anyways, like uh it tastes just like that. But somehow Fruity Pebbles at least has crunch. Anyway, I'm not a fan. I'm just saying. Um I think it's they should call it a uh tequila sunset.
+
+[12:33] I'm just gonna go ahead and say that. Okay. Uh how do you think the alcohol and the acidity of the OJ would affect the amount of agar you would need to add to the liquids? Uh, look. As long as you're not going above like 15, 20% uh ABV.
+
+[12:51] I don't know, you might need to add a little bit of extra agar, maybe, but not, but I mean, technically you should technically you wouldn't, because whatever, it doesn't matter. But I I wouldn't worry about it too much because I wouldn't put the alcohol level that high anyway. One thing I will say is uh you cannot have something that's at i high alcohol and uh boil uh and sufficiently hydrate the agar. So you will need to hydrate the agar in the juice slash whatever water base, um, start it cold, boil it, let it simmer for a while for a couple of minutes. Then you're gonna want to uh temper the alcohol into that mix, not the other way around, because you don't want to get pre-gelation.
+
+[13:28] Uh and then you want to keep it warm enough to put it through whatever EC or whatever it is you're using to make the noodles, the noodles. Uh I was also wondering how you think the texture would come out. The agar noodles, frankly, they're a little brittle and they break kind of kind of easy. So um, you know, you might want to switch uh or add uh like a softener, like a texturizer to it. Like it's not specifically something that people use for it, but like uh LBG or any sort of like uh softening thing is gonna make it a little more uh spaghetti-like.
+
+[13:57] Yeah, plus also you never make spaghetti with this either because the noodles are always a bigger thing. They're more like udon. Right? You know what I'm talking about. These like these agar noodle things are a little more like udon.
+
+[14:07] But I would follow uh, you know, any of the Martin Larish still puts out the uh text, what does he call that thing? The textures? What does he call that thing? It's like a compilation of every chef's recipes on hydrocolloids. He still puts it out.
+
+[14:19] Just check and see what kind of agon noodles are in that one and see see what happens. All right. Justin wrote in from Palm Springs on an anti-griddle. Hello, Dave Nastacia uh Nastacia. Nastacia?
+
+[14:30] Do you believe that? How many years have I worked with you stuff? Seven. Can't get your name right. All these years later.
+
+[14:35] Nastasia. Uh Jack and whatever interlopers. Oh, what what up? Harold McGee is now an interloper. Jack, you count because it's double jack.
+
+[14:44] He didn't say Jackie Molecules in here, he said Jack. Uh, as I was searching the interweb uh for instructions on building my own anti-griddle somewhat unsuccessfully. Uh for those of you that uh does he still make them? Does Philip Preston still make the anti-griddles? I don't know.
+
+[14:57] I haven't seen them in a long time. Grant Aikitz, who you know from Alinea uh and aviary and next, who by the way was at Tales of the Cocktail. And paired a cocktail with seared beef. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yes, not for its antioxidant properties, I assume.
+
+[15:11] No, I don't think so. Yeah. Uh and he bought the giant porthole, which holds like something like, you know, it's like a frat party should get that thing. It was like how many gallons did he say it held held? I want to say he said 70 liters.
+
+[15:23] But something ridiculous. A lot of cocktail. A lot of cocktail. A lot of cocktail. Big big freaking uh, what's it called?
+
+[15:30] Port hole. Yeah. Uh and he was blowing his the caramel balloons and whatnot. Yeah. Fun.
+
+[15:35] You think he had a good time? I don't know. Oh, yeah. Did you see him at any of the parties afterwards? No.
+
+[15:39] No? Me neither. I didn't really go though. I was like, I was like holed up in the in a closet as I as I want to be. Uh anyways, so uh Philip Preston made this thing uh anti-griddle for uh um Alinea way back in the day.
+
+[15:54] I don't know what he made it for. My impression was he made it for a Linia when they were opening um because I guess they didn't have LN at the time liquid nitrogen or something and they wanted uh a chilling technique because remember at that time which was that oh five a linea some somewhere around there yeah yeah that was a uh interesting period in time in the US because uh the the guys uh in uh Spain were already like you know uh you know using liquid nitrogen like it like it had no cost and like you know Ferran had like you know five doers of it in you know and like you know uh Danny Garcia was like you know just like you know whatever just turn on the tap and walk away from it like you know like California five years ago with water before you guys went totally uh totally dry on but um so anyway I think he wanted a way to replicate some of those effects without having to have liquid nitrogen. So the anti-griddle is in effect a flat plate that chills things down. And the big thing that uh Grant used to do is he used to make like creme on glaze, pour it on the thing, stick a stick into it and make little cremong glaze lollipops. Lollipops.
+
+[16:53] Um anyways uh wow that was a long pageant I haven't even finished the question yet. I came across a forum in which someone was discussing creating a high pressure environment. So you know the question's not even about the uh anti-griddle. Interesting. Uh I came across a form in which someone was discussing creating a high pressure environment inside a pressure cooker by putting dry ice inside.
+
+[17:13] This got me wondering if that technique would work for rapid infusion in the same way as an EC canister but on a larger scale. I've heard most of your rants and rays concerning the pressure cooker so you're the obvious one to come ask. Assuming I haven't modified anything on my cooker, is this safe to try? Is it safe to try? Is it safe?
+
+[17:34] Well, uh whether or not it's safe to try depends on how fast your pressure cooker can eject the excess pressure and how much CO2 you put in, how much dry ice you put into it. I'm gonna go ahead and say no. Plus also you can't modify a pressure cooker to withstand much more than about 20 PSI because the side gaskets will blow out. There's there's three or four safety features on every pressure cooker. And I don't know, I wouldn't I you're not gonna get it above about 20 PSI, and you're pulling uh you I'd have to go back and look at my charts in liquid intelligence to find out, but in in an in an EC, you're getting like 60, 70, 80 psi.
+
+[18:09] What you want to do is get a corny keg. Get a corny keg, and uh, you know, you can use CO2, you just have to wait for it to flash off, but it'll work you know much like nitrous, but you have to wait for it to flash off so it doesn't have any pétillance left when it's done. Uh but I would go corny keg and then you could do five gallons at a time and you can get a corny keg still for you know not very much. What do you what do you guys think? Modify the pressure cooker, no, right?
+
+[18:29] No, I'd I'd be worried about uh you know condensation freezing up in the in the valve. Yeah, yeah. Just kind of blocking it. So you so I I wouldn't mess with it. You ever have one of the other safety features?
+
+[18:42] I've had them all fail on me. I've had I've had every safety feature uh vent one way or the other on more than one occasion. You know what it's not? Pleasant. Not pleasant.
+
+[18:53] Yeah, Dave, anytime you're saying something is potentially unsafe and you're saying it, I would highly recommend you do not do that thing. Yeah, yeah, and there's no winks and nods here. It's just not a good idea. And I look, I'd be willing to figure out a way that I thought it would be safe, except for the fact that I don't also don't think it'll be effective. Because you're not gonna be able to get the pressure high enough.
+
+[19:12] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Hey Dave. Yes.
+
+[19:14] A weird question emailed to Heritage just now. From Greg and Queens, who says, Harold sounds like the nicest guy on the planet, but does he have a freaky side? Whoa. Yeah. Should I let Nastasia answer that?
+
+[19:27] Maybe. What? Harold, so why don't you describe to us uh your uh your your freakier side? Uh no. I'm I'm not going to Dave.
+
+[19:45] Dave, just have Harold come to Tails with you next year. Harold's been to Tails. He's been to Tails. Did you see the freaky side? That's the place it comes out.
+
+[19:53] Oh. Oh, you know. No, you didn't, Dave. Hey, you know, yeah, we know. We gotta take you to Vegas, then I'll know.
+
+[20:04] Then stays in Vegas. You know, I've never been to Vegas. You haven't? Nope. Huh?
+
+[20:09] Nope. Uh wow, that's a kind of a crazy question. I think it did it say who was Greg in Queens. Greg. Oh, there you go, Greg.
+
+[20:18] There you go, Greg. So take it, take it as uh take it however you want, but you're not gonna get anything out of him on uh on the air. That's for sure. But in fact, I will say this, and Stas, you can back me up on this. He is in fact the super nice fellow that you hear here on the radio.
+
+[20:35] Like that's like legitimately that's legitimately the uh the Harold that you will that you will get if you meet him in the real life. Oh, uh Justin, last thing you said in a PS because Stas and I need to get off our butts, uh, is your next book should be called Enemies of Quality. We're still working on a t shirt. You know about the enemies of quality? No.
+
+[20:55] It's uh well, an enemy of quality is someone who does things to hurt the product, like like food or beverage in a way that is just, you know, like not so much purposeful, but just neglectful. Most enemies of quality are just neglectful. Because they're not looking out after quality. I mean that's Right. Yeah.
+
+[21:17] Yeah. Yeah. Like uh like imagine buying a loaf of uh crusty bread and then putting it in the fridge. Mm-hmm. With that person.
+
+[21:25] Or a plastic bag. Oh, well, yeah, because it f uh because of the uh well, do you what do you like? These modified plastic bags that allow for venting, or you still have we're about right after baking, put in a plastic bag. Devil, Satan. Yes, no.
+
+[21:36] Yeah, yeah. Horrible. Perfect. Terrible. But like what about do you do you like these bags with the venting things or no?
+
+[21:42] Um not really. No. No. First of all, Harold lives in like one of the in like one of the greatest places for just keeping things on the counter. Like in San Francisco, you can just keep anything just like on the counter, right?
+
+[21:54] Well, you can, but I mean the I mean it's not as humid there as it is here right now, but it is like 50, 60 percent, which means that the loaf of bread is gonna get uh the the crust is gonna suffer with time. But there's nothing you can do about that uh really except just keep keep the bread as optimally as possible for the whole loaf and then crisp it up in the oven. Are you also suggesting that people eat their bread in a timely fashion? Uh that that is advisable too. Although these days when people make these gigantic, you know, like four-pound loaves, it's a little hard to do that.
+
+[22:30] But yeah, but uh you know that's why I like it when people sell quarters. You know? Yeah. What are your thoughts on bread boxes? Um in my experience, they're great for if you if you have a kitchen where there's a lot of traffic in and out, it it's nice to kind of keep it uh out of the way.
+
+[22:51] Um, but I like to just take a a paper bag, cut cut one part of the loaf, put that face down on a cutting board, and then just kind of put a bag, paper bag loosely over the top. And uh it doesn't look as nice as a bread box, but I think it does about the same. That's the Harold McGee bread box right there. You want to take a commercial break and come right back. Is that to me?
+
+[23:16] Yes. All right, Jackie Molecule is coming right back with cooking issues. Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have.
+
+[23:49] And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts.
+
+[24:32] It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at HeritageFoods USA.com for more information. You gotta slit their throats to save them.
+
+[24:52] Well, it's true. And welcome back to Cooking Issues with Harold McGee. Harold wants to say churro. Harold, you give me some churro? Churo.
+
+[25:00] Nice. Nice. Right? McKay, maybe you can do a. Would you be willing to do like a uh hey Jack, you want to get Harold McGee, maybe you can say something nice about the radio station?
+
+[25:10] Maybe he would. I don't know. Maybe he would. I'm kind of calling him out. I didn't ask in advance whether he'd be willing to.
+
+[25:14] Maybe he'd say something nice about us. I don't know. I don't know. Sure, sure. Give me a script.
+
+[25:21] He's like, I I have nothing that I actually want to say that's nice. But if you have something nice to say, I may I'll read it. I don't know what you need. Oh, that's true. All right, nice.
+
+[25:30] All right. Sam writes in, hi guys. I'm trying to create a mother of vinegar just for kicks. When you say it's like mother of all vinegars, it sounds like yeah, vinegar mother. Uh, what factors affect the size, speed, and appearance of the mother's formation?
+
+[25:46] By the way, uh, I saw on a video, and this is my new thing. This is amazing for those of you that aren't allowed to curse, like let's say you're around small children or in a place. This guy had an explosion happen right next to him in a video. You know the kind of videos I watch. And he goes, Mother, father!
+
+[26:01] I was like, genius! How have I not thought of that before? Have you used that before, guys? I think I've used it a couple times. Mother, father.
+
+[26:09] So like I can use that in front of the kids, which is genius anyway. I don't know what maybe. Oh, yeah, vinegar mother. Anyway, uh, wine type, vinegar type, vinegar starter, light, heat, et cetera. In particular, will a mother be able to form in a small glass vial?
+
+[26:25] Harold. Small glass vial isn't the the ideal environment because uh vinegar mothers develop at the at the vinegar air interface. And if there isn't a lot of space up there, if if there isn't a lot of surface area, it's gonna take a lot longer. So I would suggest uh a broader necked vessel of some kind. Yeah.
+
+[26:48] And also temp temperature is pretty important because uh vinegar uh acetabacteria kind of enjoy a a moderate temperature, not too cool, not too warm, like uh 20 Celsius, 70 or so uh Fahrenheit. So if you can keep it in a place like that, uh that helps. And uh you want to cheesecloth the top of it so that you don't get the vinegar finegar flies and uh what else? Uh you gotta get the alcohol content right. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:20] Yep. Uh and I would uh something I didn't get a chance to look into, but my bet is that uh white wine or something like that would be would work faster than red, because you know, red wine has all those phenolics, they're probably to some extent uh antibacterial, and you might have to overcome that. Huh. I'm sure someone's done the study, right? Yeah.
+
+[27:43] Have you ever had the people who like we had we made a kombucha and the kombucha is it's this one's got a lot of alcohol in it because of the way we made it, and you taste it and you're like, you have no alcohol because it's all turned to vinegar. It's like been like acetobacter hit like a baseball bat. You ever had that happen? Uh no, no. But I can imagine it.
+
+[27:59] Yes. Well, I I don't have to imagine it because it happened to me. I was like, listen, if you like I like vinegar beverages, so I'm cool with it. It tasted like, you know, do you like heavy vinegar beers? You like like Rodenbach, Grand Cru, and all that stuff?
+
+[28:11] Yeah. Can you pound a whole hyper vinegar one? I like the medium grade, like sm medium amounts of vinegar, like Roden Rodenbach style, but not the straight vinegar suck ones. I don't know. Yeah.
+
+[28:22] Well it depends on how much. I mean l a little bit. Uh like a half. Oh, yeah. But yeah, not you?
+
+[28:33] Yeah. Do you like the drinking vinegars like uh yeah, like uh Andy Ricker and his nice yeah? I like those two. Me too. Yeah, Jack, nice.
+
+[28:40] Jackie molecule. That's right. Jackie. Both Jacks agree though. Delicious.
+
+[28:45] Yeah, nice. All right. Uh what about Rauch beer? I'm not a fan. Uh you know, I uh no, I do like it.
+
+[28:52] Smoke you like a smoky beer? You can drink a whole one? No, but uh at uh Semia in Williamsburg. They did uh a weird smoked onion. Dude, yes, I had the same one.
+
+[29:02] So good with the smoked beer. Delicious. Incredible. What? Why do you first of all why do you need smoke on smoke?
+
+[29:07] What's the smoke on smoke? Did they serve it with a smoked cheese and then you smoke a cigar with it? Like so much smoke. It it worked in the in the circumstance. You you you gotta try it, Dave.
+
+[29:17] You gotta get over there. It's good. I really did. Yeah. Well, you know, Nastasia, little known fact, Nastasia ate you ready for this, Jack?
+
+[29:23] E. Nastasia ate in Queens over the weekend. What? Queens. Wow.
+
+[29:30] I was like, Oh my god, she like died or something. Someone said there's an imposter. I she's like, Yeah, I was uh over eating in Jackson Heights. I was like, damn. Did a helicopter bring her there?
+
+[29:45] He's like, you know, 'cause this to get Nastasia to cross the river, other than for this show is like preferred Queens to Brooklyn. I would go to Queens faster than Brooklyn. You gotta say that closer to the microphone so everyone here in Brooklyn can hear you. I go to Queens. I Queens is fine.
+
+[29:57] Brooklyn I hate. Wow. There it is. Wow. Oh, I love the molecules, man.
+
+[30:07] Okay. By the way, Harold McGee, I don't think has heard the Jackie Molecules ringtone. Can you bust it? Oh yeah, give me a minute. Alright.
+
+[30:13] Tell me when you're ready. Yeah. And I'll uh I'll hit I'll hit with some uh with some questions here. Uh Pedro, how do you think you pronounce P A I V A? Portuguese Paiva?
+
+[30:25] Paiva. Paiva? Yeah. Pedro Paiva. Good afternoon, Cooking Issues team.
+
+[30:29] My name is Pedro from Lisbon, Portugal. I've never been. I'd like to go though. I really like Portuguese cheese. You like Portuguese cheese?
+
+[30:36] I do. Do you? And I've never been either. Really? Yeah.
+
+[30:38] Well, you know, if you're out there, Portugal, if you're out there, let me hear you dance. Uh Harold McGee would like to go to Portugal. One of you needs to reach into your wallet and like figure out some sort of conference that you're gonna fly him over to there so he can hang out and eat all of your delicious thistle renneted cheese and pound a whole boatload of port. And if you need some chump named Dave to come along too, well, you know, hey, that's you know, all the better. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:05] Jack, Jack the bartender, you like some port, right? I certainly do. I think we should start putting it some cocktails. Well, uh D got the white the white port. Did any of that work?
+
+[31:14] We we're still working on it. It's getting there. Yeah? Carbo application is is looking good. Yeah, carbap carbaplication.
+
+[31:21] Yeah. We have a gin and tana question later if we get to it. So anyway, okay. Uh in fact, it's this one. Uh and I would like to submit a question about gin and tonic.
+
+[31:28] Here we go. You ready? Jack of the bar. You will also win on this one since you do this every dang day. Uh well, except for the past week when you were tails of the cocktail.
+
+[31:39] Uh gin is now a big trend in Portugal, and it is really easy to buy uh a decent gin and a decent tonic. Most people claim to know how to serve the best GNT, and that for each gin there is a perfect serve. Hmm. Well, that's a very that's kind of a there's more the Spanish trend, right? The big goblet style.
+
+[31:59] Do you like the big goblet style? I'm not a huge gin and tonic drinker, but I mean I enjoy pretty much any GNT if it's I'm just sipping on it casually. So I never casually I never I'm never casually sipping. However, in the YouTube clip, the gin and tonic Dave Arnold's Cocktail University, the gin served is totally different from the one served in the other side of the Atlantic, stu uh starting in the glass. No one uses flutes.
+
+[32:22] Ours are closer to a small fish tank for a goldfish. Yeah, I know it. I understand that. It's because um carbonation must not be as important over there. Normally we first put and swirl the ice in a glass to cool it, then we flavor it with uh botanics, juniper, zest of orange, lemon, or even strawberries, then pour the gin and finally the tonic carefully to keep the gas of the tonic, which you can't if there's ice in a big boat fish bowl.
+
+[32:42] Let me tell you something about let me tell you a little something about about bubbles, my friend. Uh like the vast majority of bubbles are lost at the surface of the glass, right? At the surface. So what a flute does for you, it actually doesn't do a good job of uh presenting the volatiles to your nose, which is why real champagne freaks like uh like our good friend Nastasi the Hammer Lopez prefer to drink their champazle out of a white wine glass. Am I right?
+
+[33:07] Yes. Yeah. Because the the aroma is better, and in fact, a lot of people, a lot of cognizenti like their champagnes uh too warm for my taste and wide open because they actually want to dumb the bubbles down because it lets them taste the wine more. Well, what about you? For me, it depends a lot on the champagne.
+
+[33:24] Uh I just had this wonderful experience of a a 25-year old Viv Cliqueaux served from a humongous uh bottle. It had no bubbles left whatsoever, but it was delicious and like no other champagne I I'd ever had. But if it's a you know a young one and and really bubbly and really sparkly. Um I I actually like flutes. Yeah.
+
+[33:46] I mean, because you can enjoy the the visual spectacle as well as the the taste and smell and and spurts. Yeah, yeah. You know, Ligier Belair, the champagne scientist from Malay, who lives in why how do you why do you pronounce that town that way? As we would say, Reams. Uh but it's um uh he did the studies on the traditional coops, which we use for cocktails, and uh flutes, and his I believe said maybe we should do white wine glasses as a good compromise.
+
+[34:17] You read those studies? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's Mr. Champagne. What a job or champagne.
+
+[34:23] So let me ask you this. On that 25-year-old uh Vuv Clique, uh uh how was the acidity? Uh it was bracing, it was very high. That's part of what made it so wonderful. Because otherwise it was kind of caramelly, bready, you know, all those uh it was rich, but also had a nice backbone.
+
+[34:43] How far had the uh in the absence of massive amounts of CO2, how far had the yeasty bready gone to oxidized and cherry-like? Uh it wasn't cherry-like. It was it was just really rich. It was dark too. And when I first saw it, I thought, hmm, this this doesn't look good.
+
+[35:02] But but it was beautiful. Nice. Yeah. Who bought it? Uh the owner of the restaurant, uh, who which was celebrating its twenty-fifth anniversary, bought it when the restaurant opened for this occasion.
+
+[35:15] Foresight, Jack. There it is. Foresight. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[35:18] Anyways. Uh, or closer to a small fish tank for a goldfish. Normally, we oh, I already did this. Uh the uh then pouring the gin and tonic and finally uh the tonic to keep the gas in the tonic. In the picture attached, which I don't have, is one of the results for the bloom gin.
+
+[35:31] The question is, is it okay to serve it as we do, or are we missing something important? Thank you for your time and thank you for the great program. Pedro, P.S. Uh, as you see, um uh as you see it, what should be the first steps into the Sous vide world? Do you recommend an emergency any immersion circulator in particular for Sous vide?
+
+[35:48] And as a home cook, what should I pay attention to? Uh look, they're all they're all gonna work. Uh I'm not sure about in Portugal, like what the like which ones are good for for Europe. They're all they're all they're all they're all gonna work. Just get one uh that you know you can afford that you're gonna be happy with.
+
+[36:05] I like the professional ones, but those are still like 800 bucks, but it's they're to me, like I know I can beat on them pretty hard, but I've had experience with all the lesser priced ones as well, and they're they're all they're all gonna work for you. Yeah, there's so much good stuff out there on the internet. I would go to like Chef Steps, uh, you know, one one of those places. Uh I have the rudiments of a low temperature cooking uh primer on uh cooking issues, which is still available. Unfortunately, apparently you can't buy Cialis on our blog anymore.
+
+[36:28] Paul finally got rid of the Cialis ads. But uh we by the way, we never made any money off of that. It was just I don't know how they got hijacked. Uh but j just go there. Now, as of the question is, are you doing anything wrong uh making your gin and tonics this way?
+
+[36:40] Well, uh oh no. I mean, if you like them, then you like them. Like uh, and and it's good. I mean, like, uh, I mean, there are certain things that are an abomination, right? So, like, if you were like, what I really want to do is take Pepsi Cola, which my wife saw someone do this in Shanghai once.
+
+[37:00] If you want to take Pepsi Cola and mix it with Petruse, regardless of whether the Petrus is fake Petruse or real Petruse, like if you want to take even something that might pass as Petruse, right? So, you know, maybe it's like, you know, you know, not you know, some sort of closer, like related, you know, wine. Um, that's a mistake. You know, that's just you're making an error there. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:24] Uh, you know, I would say, even, frankly, like uh alternating between your glass of Pepsi and Petruse is a horrible mistake. Uh, you know, because the phosphoric acid's just not gonna play nicely with the wine and the flavors of the cola are gonna ride right over it, and then it's just not no, no. Well, I would practice first if you're gonna do that with uh with some yellowtail, right, Stas? And yellowtail and Pepsi, fine. Uh see whether you can get a decent yellowtail and Pepsi, and then if you have a billionaire come, then sure, dump the Petruse in, but just don't let me see you.
+
+[37:56] With a gin and tonic, it's a little bit different because the flavors you're gonna be working with are all gonna be uh good. I tend to want the purest uh essence of a gin and tonic possible, which means it's the I'm gonna start with a gin that I like, tank array, and uh I'm gonna use only quinine sulfate and sugar uh and lime juice that you know we clarify, because I am looking for a particular thing, a highly carbonated, extremely crisp, extremely dry, pure gin and tonic with a bunch of uh no no extraneous crap. That's what I'm interested in. Does that make me right? Yes.
+
+[38:27] No, I'm kidding. Uh no, it just you know, it just uh it's you know, that's the way I want to do it. That's the goal I've set for myself. Uh, but you know, we don't all have to have that goal, right? There's honor in lightly carbonated fish bowls.
+
+[38:40] I actually I have to say that unless there's so much ice, like uh any drink that's handed to you, with the exception of uh an old an old fashioned, and even in that case, because you can drink an old-fashioned quickly if you so desire, like any drink uh should be small enough that uh it can be consumed by whoever's consuming it in uh under under five to ten minutes. I mean, really under two minutes, really like right away. But in other words, like I've like if the average consumer is taking much longer than like 10 or 15 minutes, the drink is sitting there dying. I don't care what kind of drink it is, it's dying. If it's a shaking drink, it's warming up too much.
+
+[39:16] If it's a stirred drink, it's warming up too much. If it's a stir drink on a rock, it's diluting too much. If it's God forbid, you know, a tall drink in a bunch of ice, it's just turning into a watery mess. Um, you know, if if I could change the way the drinking world works in general, and it is going this way in London and other places, it would be smaller drinks drunk uh more quickly. Yeah.
+
+[39:38] Yeah. Yep. Uh okay. Uh let me see. Uh I'm I you know, Stas, we might actually make it through the question today.
+
+[39:45] Can you believe that? Can you believe that? Uh Steve actually, we won't. We're not gonna make it. All right.
+
+[39:52] Steven from Moscow wrote in. Uh good to speak to you a few months back at the bar, because he came to the bar. Uh no luck finding the Vizegal. Remember Ziga? Vizega, the sturgeon spine?
+
+[40:03] Yeah, yeah. You ever use that, Harold? They used to rip the spine out of sturgeons. Right, yeah. For kulbiyak and things like that.
+
+[40:09] No, I've never never played with it myself. Hard to get. Nastasi and I went to uh what's that what's that what's the neighborhood? Like Brighton, right? Brighton Beach, which is like the Russian thing.
+
+[40:17] And she tried to pull her, like uh, but basically they just handed us like a a chunk of frozen sturgeon that had like a little bit of spinal cord in, and so we didn't really have enough to like rip out the whole spinal cord and do the uh do this stuff. But I wonder whether any other spinal cord do you think there's anything special about a sturgeon's spinal cord? Is it the spinal cord itself? I think it is. Anything special about a sturgeon spinal cord that you know of?
+
+[40:40] No. I mean, uh it it's it's uh gelatinous, that's really all I know about it. And how fundamentally different is spinal cord material from like brain material, just shorter length axons in the brain? Uh you know, uh I should have prepared for this, but my uh my recollection from uh Chris Cosantino in San Francisco used to sell a uh tuna spine, tuna backbone. That there's the spinal cord itself, which is tissue like the brain, it's it's um you know nerve cells, but then there's this um uh uh gelatinous cartilaginous material, which is sort of the shock absorber that pr prevents the uh nervous tissue from suffering.
+
+[41:29] And I think it's that that shock tissue that you actually Yeah, I used to serve that. I know I love that stuff. It's good. It's like kind of like real but it needs to be really fresh. Yes.
+
+[41:39] But it's like super kind of clean and seawatery. But you but the butt that's not what the vizega is, though. I think the vasigga is the actual cord, no? You think the vasiga is the stuff? Because the vasika comes in a long strip.
+
+[41:50] Right, right. Yeah, no, that's that's my sense. But but I was gonna say, how did you like Chris? What did Chris do to it? To the to the uh just gave it to you and you kind of broke it open yourself and oh I think we had that together.
+
+[42:05] But he roasted the outside of it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've only ever served it raw. Like, so we would take one spine, clean off the vertebrae so it was like like, you know, wiped clean, like you put it in one of those like uh flesh-eating beetle containers.
+
+[42:14] You know what I'm talking about. And then uh I didn't do that though, please. I don't want to hear about it. And then uh we scooped fresh ones that were like off these kind of the gross meaty carcasses and then put them on like they were fresh. Remember when we did that, we did that for Star Chefs, remember that stuff?
+
+[42:32] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, Chris roasted it and then uh kind of sprinkled all kinds of uh well, pepper and then various other herbs and spices on it. So it was really, really flavorful. Yeah.
+
+[42:43] Delicious. Yeah, I remember that. Uh okay. So uh he was not able to find it. Uh and he says it's effectively unavailable in its dry form and extremely difficult to get fresh, especially because how do you always pronounce how do you pronounce?
+
+[42:55] You know the the critical endangered species? It's CTs, is that how you pronounce it? C-I-T-E-S? Yeah. Anyway, uh you have to, you know, you don't want to slaughter the last sturgeon.
+
+[43:04] I don't think. Probably not. Here's my question regarding temperature maintenance. We'll be spending some time this summer with an Italian style, because it's not it's gonna be in Moscow, not in Italy, so it can only be Italian style. Stas, what do you think about Italian style things?
+
+[43:18] She gave you she you can't see, but she gave you a pfft on Italian style. She likes Italian you don't like Italians, you like Italy. Yeah. You like Italy but not Italians, right? Another one of the things.
+
+[43:28] Right up there with biscuits. Uh even though, whatever, even though whatever, I don't know. I'm not gonna get into it. Uh Italian style outdoor brick barbecue. Uh with something like the picture attached, which unfortunately I don't have.
+
+[43:41] Oh, it's gonna be in Sardinia. It's gonna be in Sardinia. Have you ever been? No. You been?
+
+[43:45] No. You been? No. Wanna go? I'd like to go.
+
+[43:47] Yes. Yeah. Uh by tradition, I will need to, by tradition, I like this as a good tradition. I will need to roast a suckling pig or half for sure, among many other things. Any thoughts on the cook for a long cook?
+
+[43:59] How best to regulate the temperature? We'll be in New York City next week. Hope to see you at the bar, but I missed it. Uh regards Steven. Um so the classic one that can be roasted whole is the is the Cochinillo style, but they're minuscule pigs.
+
+[44:13] Like how much of those things weigh? You ever have one of those? I've never done one myself. But yeah, they're you know, a few pounds. Delicious.
+
+[44:22] Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um I don't know, dude, whether you want to do the like the super slow roast on it. It's gonna be hard to regulate if you don't do it a lot. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:33] Yeah. It's one of those things where you need to do it a lot. Temperature regulation in one of those big ovens uh is all about just um you want to build the temperature up uh over the course of hours and hours and hours and then wait for it to get down to a point that you're gonna be okay, throw it in and then let it ride down on something like that. You're not gonna re-fire. If it's a big retained heat masonry oven, you're not gonna re-fire during the roast because you'll you'll nuke off the uh outside of the skin.
+
+[45:00] I wouldn't even I would even maybe protect the pig for the first part of the thing in it with something that's gonna, you know, like leaves or some crap, um almost like you were burying it in the ground. All those retained heat things start, you st wanna start it at like kind of like uh the maximum and then let it ride down. Would you agree? Yes. Yeah, I don't think you're you're not gonna be maintaining temperature in any active sense inside of a inside of a retained heat masonry oven.
+
+[45:22] Would you would you think so, Harold? Yeah, and uh and it's difficult if you're not familiar with it, you know, to know how it's gonna behave. So yeah, I would do a couple of firings first. Yeah. And like kind of see how it does.
+
+[45:33] But here's another solution. What you can do is you can if you if you if you could muster it, because you can do it in like trash bags, you could do the whole thing uh low temp, right, and then just throw it in a flaming hot one to crisp up the skin. And it'll be as delicious as it can be. Those of you who've heard me rant before know that I am somewhat suspicious of uh whole hog or any whole animal cookery, because there it is not possible to uh cook the tenderloin of a pig. I just leave it there.
+
+[46:08] No, I'm kidding. Uh it's not possible to cook the tenderloin of a pig and have it not be a uh nasty, uh either pasty or dry m one it's either gonna be pasty nasty or dry nasty and have the rest of the pig cook properly. And so the solution to that unless the pig's extraordinarily young and then it bathes itself in its own kind of fat as it goes and then whatever, because also it can cook really quickly. But uh, you know, barring that uh, you know, what the what you have to do is hack up that dry meat and mix it with the good meat so that that's what the barbecue uh guy is like what's his name? Ed uh why is his name out of my head?
+
+[46:40] The the big whole hog guy down Ed Mitchell. Ed Mitchell. Uh he's like, yeah, but I like the little dry chunk of it's like why, why, why, why, why, why, why? What you should do is rip all of the stuff out and cook it the way it wants to be cooked, and then somehow reassemble it into a pig and crisp up the skin. Now that would be like that would be amazing, right?
+
+[46:58] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right, Dave.
+
+[47:01] Oh my god, we got we got we do have a bonus segment coming up. All right, we well, okay. So Peggy from Australia, we got within one question. And Peggy, uh, you are the one that we have left. So I'm gonna get you and your circulator questions next week on the cooking issues.
+
+[47:15] However, uh, before uh we sign out and uh thank uh Jack Shram from the bar from Booker and Dax, Nastasia, Jackie Molecule. Oh, you didn't pay Jackie Molecules. Oh, yeah, I can do that real real real quick. All right, let's see. Uh who else you have to thank?
+
+[47:31] Well, no, I'm gonna say a paragraph. Jackie Molecules. There it is. All right. Uh so uh we pre-recorded an extra 15 minutes of cooking issues that got to some of the other questions.
+
+[47:49] So if you didn't hear your question and your name's not Peggy, then uh it means that we don't uh know about it. We got them also stay tuned uh after this for another 15 minutes of uh cooking issues. Bonus cooking issues. And welcome back to the extended 15 minutes or so of cooking issues because we just knew we'd need to spend more time with Harold McGee. Harold, how are you doing?
+
+[48:16] Well, thanks. Great to be here. Yeah, yeah. Uh in actuality, I don't want to lie to you. We're we're taping this before the initial thing.
+
+[48:21] So we're just starting now, but we figured we'd tack it on at the end. So I'm gonna pretend that Nastasia had to leave for a minute, even though she actually hasn't arrived yet. Okay. Yeah, and Jack, is this the first time I've ever been in in the studio early? Has this ever happened before?
+
+[48:33] 100%, yes. All right. So I got some questions in uh that I'd like to get to. Here's one that I think Harold will particularly like because he's done a lot of work in it. Tyler Simons wrote in, dear Dave Nastasia, uh, and Jackie Molecules, and Harold in a question mark because he sent it in back when I said there was only a 50% chance of Harold McGee.
+
+[48:50] Uh, are there any hard and fast rules for making caramel candies? I'm interested in making dairy-free caramels, and I'm curious if there is simply a fat sugar ratio that is required or something more complicated is going on, i.e. I uh, e.g. protein stabilized emulsion. How could I make something like an almond milk caramel?
+
+[49:06] Thanks so much, Tyler Simmons from UC Davis. P.S. You've spoiled me. I can't seem to find any other podcasts that are both as entertaining and educational as yours. Keep up the good work.
+
+[49:15] Well, thanks. Thanks for the kind words. And I know the Herald has done. I don't know if you've done with this kind of caramel. You've done with straight sugar caramelization.
+
+[49:20] You've done a lot of work. You ever worked with this kind of stuff? I have not. I mean I I have uh worked with uh standard caramel candies, and uh uh with this kind of thing, it seems to me that what you do is you go into the kitchen and you give it a shot and you see what happens and you try to adapt. So I I imagine it would behave very much like uh an ordinary milk emulsion or dairy emulsion, but uh I'm not sure.
+
+[49:44] Right. Well, except for I mean again, like uh somehow I I didn't read it thoroughly enough because I was rushing in and I and I thought we were dealing with more of a straight sugar thing. I don't know if you know sometimes that happens to you, like you read something, you're like, I got it, you know, McGee's gonna get it. I didn't read there, it was kind of a different kind of candy altogether. My one um my one thing is uh, you know, the casein like the way it browns, the way it undergoes kind of uh, you know, uh browning reactions.
+
+[50:14] I don't know if you're gonna get the same effect. Oh, I bet you won't. And in fact, uh probably the the protein content of the almond milk is lower than ordinary milk. I mean, that would be my guess anyway. Uh but that's why you play with it.
+
+[50:30] And if it doesn't work uh using a standard recipe, well, maybe you start by reducing the almond milk or something like that to get things going. And yeah. Yeah, and I would presume it's well, it depends on what you use, but I presume it's also uh higher fat, right? Than in regular milk. Uh not with California almonds.
+
+[50:48] Boom, boom, take that low-fat California almonds. Um they're not low fat, but they're low water in fat. Uh yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're they're yeah, we need to be growing better varieties in California.
+
+[51:00] Why is that? Did they start growing these like why is it that the standard California almond is an incredibly low, comparatively low fat uh almond? Yeah, I don't know the history of that, except that you know it's the usual sort of thing, probably that the breeders are looking for disease resistance and yield and not so much flavor. I think that's probably it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[51:20] Simple as that, huh? Here's another one for you. Uh we talked a little bit about uh yesterday night. Uh Andrew writes in about uh chickpeas. Uh love the show.
+
+[51:28] I'm one of those people who went and listened to the entire back catalog after discovering it that hurts that so much. Can you imagine listening to all this? Uh despite your warnings along the way that this was crazy. I have two questions regarding rehydrating dried legumes. Uh now that I have an electric pressure cooker, yes, I know they're not ideal, but no regrets after picking one up for cheap on Craigslist.
+
+[51:46] Do you ever use the electric ones? No, I haven't. What what what kind of pressure cooker do you have? Uh uh uh a not that old coon right on I love them. I I have mine, in fact I've welded the handle back onto mine after the handle smashed off and uh you know I've lost the parts of the top, I've replaced all the gaskets on it, and it still works.
+
+[52:06] Um anyway. Uh okay. Uh first, I'm quite happy with my go-to hummus recipe, uh, but I find the texture to be off when I'm using my rehydrated chickpeas instead of using canned. I've tried a range of cook times, but they transition directly from crunchy with that raw flavor to a mealy pasty overdone texture that's still apparent after going into the food processor. I assume commercial canneries rehydrate them too, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
+
+[52:31] An ancient bag of beans, perhaps? That's for the question. Beans? Does the water need some kind of additive like calcium in order to retain some texture? Uh I'd stay away from that.
+
+[52:41] Like hardening the that like there's been a bunch of studies. Well, I'll let Harold into it. But there's been a bunch of studies on uh way back in the day, like in the early 1900s, I think, where uh people were noticing that the canned beans uh had very uh different qualities on different parts of the country based on the water that was available in the canning thing. And they wa would run through, and they did a whole series of studies on uh the two you need to worry about are calcium and magnesium, calcium and magnesium, like you know, parts per thousand uh versus uh versus uh hardness in the beans, and um, you know, and then you'd get a situation where they're uniformly too hard, and then there's the intermediate zone where some that per presumably are less well soaked or harder than others. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[53:22] Uh let me finish the question. Yet yet another yet another Dave going off on a tangent. Um I assume commercial canneries rehydrate them too. That is correct, they do. Uh so I wonder what I am missing.
+
+[53:34] Uh ancient bag of beans, does the water need some kind of additive like calcium? Uh any thoughts on how to recreate canned chickpeas or other beans at home? Uh second, when it comes to preparation without the gaseest consequences, and this is why I thought McGee would be uh ideal on this, because uh for those of you uh I'm not gonna make him say the story again unless he would like to, in which case he's welcome to. But the entire uh on food and cooking uh phenomenon that has uh you know helped fuel so many of us in uh in our push towards thinking more scientifically about the problems of deliciousness was fueled by the problem of farting uh with beans. True?
+
+[54:10] It was, it was indeed. And you can say as much of that about you uh as you want. But anyway, uh when it comes to preparation without the gaseest consequences, the internet is filled with anecdotal advice. What's a good evidence-based method to reduce this particular side effect? I'm mainly interested in black beans, black-eyed peas, and split peas, if it makes a difference.
+
+[54:30] Thank you so much, and I hope this doesn't contribute too much to more uh more ketchup shows. Well, in fact, we're handling it in a ketchup segment, so there you have it. Uh Andrew. So what do you think? Ah, so where to begin?
+
+[54:41] Um maybe with uh I'm I'm a little confused about his question because he said he's bothered by a pasty mealy texture in chickpeas. In chickpeas, yeah. Uh but then he's also talking about maybe adding calcium for texture when it sounds as though what he actually wants is an absence of texture. Well, I you know, my impression is that what's happening is is that some maybe have gone over while others are still hard, so maybe he's thinking the calcium's gonna make them equally, but it was just gonna make you equally shafted. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[55:11] Yeah, yeah. So go the opposite direction if you if you had to. Yeah, yeah. And in a hummus, who cares anyway? You're gonna blend the hell out of it.
+
+[55:18] The hard part. Listen, uh, I'm gonna let Harold, you know, do this, and but what I'm saying is the hard part is being able to make a decent chickpea that you just eat. And if you can make a decent chickpea that you just eat and you like the texture of it when you're eating it, then it's gonna make a good hummus. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[55:34] Right? So go go ahead and so there is the the ancient bean uh phenomenon. If beans uh of any kind sit around for too long at especially a too high uh a uh humidity, they end up with this hard to cook uh quality that you just really can't get around. So you want to start with fresh beans or as fresh as possible. Will baking soda fix it or no, not even uh I don't think so.
+
+[56:00] No. Uh it's just the the cell walls are kind of cemented together much more permanently than they would be otherwise. So my like my grandpa just got more and more ornery as he got away. Yeah, that's right. Ornery beans.
+
+[56:13] Yeah. Uh so start with as fresh beans as possible and then uh soak them, pre-soak them, and then uh cook them long enough to make them soft. I mean, that's kind of what it comes down to. Check them every once in a while, see where you're getting to the point where the texture is close to the eatable that you just just described, and uh then go from there. I mean, I think one of the problems if he's doing it in a pressure cooker, first of all, like uh look, especially if you have beans of varying ages, right, but they haven't gone all the way to ornary bean syndrome, uh the kind of longer you can let them soak the better off you are because the more they will all equilibrate to an equal precook moisture, right?
+
+[57:00] The harder you force water into a bean uh into a bean or a chickpea that hasn't uh hydrated uh, you know, been soaked properly, the more you're gonna get uh an overcooked outside and an undercooked inside, right? I mean, wouldn't you say you also want to pr like uh avoid violent boiling? Yes, yes. Um although if you're gonna end up uh pureeing it anyway, then maybe it that's not such a big deal. Uh but uh yeah, uh it's the uh we generally don't realize it, but the step that takes the longest, the process that takes the longest in the cooking of beans isn't heating them up, it's getting the water from the outside to the inside.
+
+[57:44] And so if you take care of that ahead of time, uh then you eliminate all kinds of problems, including textural problems because that soaking will leach out some of the the uh ions that are holding those cell walls together. What are your thoughts on the uh on the warm water pre-soak? Um it's quicker. Um what it's less gentle on the on the bean coats, it doesn't matter on a chickpea though. Like on some beans that lose their coats, like don't you find that because they they they rehydrate so much faster that you get that wrinkly phenomenon and they uh Yeah, that's true.
+
+[58:21] Uh they they expand faster than the insides do, and so you end up with that with that wrinkling which pulls it away from the surface of the bean and and causes the then later to fall off or not to look as nice. Right. He's also cooking in a pressure cooker, and so one of the things I oh by the way, I mean I assume everyone knows this, but if you want your beans to cook, don't add acid to them at all until they're soft, right? Okay. Um and what about salt in the soak?
+
+[58:46] Uh salt in the soak, uh, in my experience and from my looking at the literature, it slows the hydration. Uh, but once it's hydrated, the cooking actually goes much quicker because the sodium ions displace calcium in the structure and that helps loosen things up. So that could perhaps make it more even? Yeah, yeah. But you have to allow more time because if there is salt in the in the water, then it's gonna take a lot longer to penetrate into the bean itself.
+
+[59:17] Now, uh he says he's using a pressure cooker. One thing I would be wary of with a pressure cooker is um well, a couple things. Uh if you don't know whether it's done, you should wait for it to come down naturally. If you do a flash uh a flash off on the pressure cooker, it really does uh it's the equivalent of of uh uniformly boiling throughout the liquid, including the liquid that's inside of the the cheek chickpeas, and so I think you're gonna get kind of blast apart on the um on the on the on the thing but uh that so you have to let it come down naturally and then bring it back up so it can it can take more time that way but uh you know after a couple of batches you should be able to dial in uh in your time but the longer you let it soak um the less I think you're gonna have batch to batch variants unless you get a really set of uh old um ordinary beans there was a study that uh I forgot you were there and it was uh the year we were at Madrid fusing together it was like oh five or something like this something like this and um oh six like January of oh six I think so yeah you but you were quite sick at the time everyone was sick everyone had gotten food poisoned or some sort of like stomach vi like all the all these famous chefs um had gotten like this horrible like you know virus or food poisoning like Thomas Keller was stumbling around on stage and everything. It's kind of a nightmare um but since I wasn't at the time invited to any of the fancy stuff I did not catch any dread diseases and so I was able to wander around at you know at will but I remember one of the presenters was uh a Spanish chef and I looked for the paper in advances but I couldn't find a Spanish chef who had done some research at a Spanish uh university about chickpeas and various uh temperature regimes both in cooking and in soaking and the textual differences.
+
+[1:01:03] Do you remember that? No. I mean I couldn't find it I tried to find it but you know that you know the there was a great phenomenon back then in the in in that period of time especially in Europe actually only in Europe. I mean, recently in the US, like there's been some kind of collaborations like that. But there were just all these uh uh institutions who were like, yeah, we'll let you know, real scientists talk to chefs and answer actual evidence-based kind of stuff, you know?
+
+[1:01:31] Yeah. Does that really happen anymore? Oh, yeah, a lot of uh in fact, I think a lot uh there's a lot more these days than than back then. Well, here. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:40] It just never happened before. Well, I think in in Europe as well. Uh those were uh back then it was something that you know was kind of strange to everybody. First of all, that chefs would be getting together in large numbers and sharing their recipes, sharing their new ideas rather than hoarding them, uh, and then collaborating with people who had more technical knowledge than they did to figure things out. But that's uh it's there's a lot of that everywhere now.
+
+[1:02:08] Right. I mean, the classic one in the English speaking world that you we always used to talk about in classes was the uh the Heston one. You want to talk about that for a second? Uh sure. Heston uh has collaborated with people at a half dozen different universities in the UK.
+
+[1:02:23] Uh the collaboration that I think makes the most difference to most cooks is the one he did uh with Donald Motram at Reading University. This is in the like 2005-2006, where uh Heston was preparing tomatoes in the kitchen uh in the standard uh classical French way of peeling the tomatoes, scooping out the seeds, and then chopping the the wall of the tomato for some beautiful uh sort of uh garnish. And he was popping bits of tomato in his mouth as he was doing this, and noticed that the seeds seemed to have way more flavor than the rest of the tomato. And so he called up his friend uh Matram at Reading and asked him, was it true that there was more he thought uh umami and acidity in the in the jelly around the seeds? And Matram looked at the literature, couldn't find anyone had done a study of this, and so he and Aston collaborated on the study.
+
+[1:03:26] And they found that uh not only was there a difference in the concentration of these things in uh in and around the seeds, but that it was a huge difference. It was like three or full three or fourfold difference in uh glutamate and uh organic acids and so on. So the intensity of flavor in a tomato comes from the stuff that in many cuisines you just kind of toss out or put in a stock or something like that and don't even make use of. Specifically the French. You used to make fun of well, I would force you to make fun of the French when we were at the French culinary institute when you're talking about it.
+
+[1:03:59] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kind of fun too to remember uh back in the day when Ferranadria was coming up with a new dish every six hours. Uh a couple of them were actually based on taking scooping the seeds out of the inside of a tomato and just serving them all by themselves, and they were delicious. And then selling the outside to the French?
+
+[1:04:19] Right. For using some sort of conca. Right, is that the word? Uh oui. Uh hey, uh before I uh go into this, I'll ask whether you like uh have any do you know anything about uh thermophilic bacteria and their possible survival inside of sous vide bags?
+
+[1:04:35] Have you heard anything about this? Uh no. No. I have a I had someone a while ago who wrote in about their bags inflating after a fairly long period of time when it should have already um everything should have been killed, and I I ascribed it to uh there was sauce on the inside of the bag that didn't make it to temperature in time. But then he's like, Well, why did it blow up after a long period?
+
+[1:04:56] I don't know. I've I wonder whether there's ever been a case of like a thermophilic thing surviving and causing gas inside of a bag. Well, how how long after? I mean, hours after being put into the bath. Like uh, I think on like day like on day two.
+
+[1:05:10] Uh-huh. Well, I mean, there are uh spores that survive temperatures like sous vide temperatures and are actually activated by temperatures like that. Right. Well, but when it in other words, uh but while the bag was still cooking, it it it blew up. While it was cooking.
+
+[1:05:28] Like a day later. Like twenty-four hours. Imagine twenty-four hours into the cook process, the bag just inflates. Uh, okay. This is uh, you know, someone named Michael had written in this, but I still uh every once in a while I think about it and I can't figure it out because air in bones or veg will come out in the first couple of hours after it heats up.
+
+[1:05:46] Usually, you know, within five or six hours, if you have a pocket on the inside that is being too protected from the heat such that you can generate stuff, then that'll create gas. That gas pocket will stay at a temperature that doesn't kill the bacteria because it'll be like you know, five, six degrees below. It'll stay around fifty, you'll incubate bacteria and you'll go. But not like twenty-four hours later. Yeah.
+
+[1:06:10] Something weird. Something weird is going on. All right. So listen, uh like right in a minute, we're gonna end uh our extended, but I have one more that I think would be good to end on. And you know if you don't want to talk, are you do you you willing to talk about your your looking into the uh burnt almond uh and cyanide, or are you not willing to talk about it?
+
+[1:06:28] Sure. All right. So we'll do this real quick because I think this is a hyper interesting story, and one that just shows how badass uh Harold McGee is about thinking about stuff that we have taken for granted for not just our lives, but for the lives of everyone back to our great grandparents. Uh Caleb Sexton wrote in uh because he sent us as uh those apricots, you know the super high bricks apricots they have now in California? Uh no.
+
+[1:06:49] Yeah, I forget the name of it. I'll I'll get it for you. They're like mega hype, like 2020s, high twenties bricks on the fresh fruit. And what kind of acidity? Not enough acidity in my in my estimation.
+
+[1:06:59] However, if you just I what I did was I sprinkled some uh some acid on them and they were like, what? You know, but you know how I am. Anyways, uh but Stas liked them low acidity, but that's not the point. So he said, I have these pits now, and I want to use them, the apricot kernels. And he said, Should I be worried about uh amygdalene?
+
+[1:07:15] And then he said, uh, well, you know, my my impression is that the sweeter the, I don't know whether you meant the sweeter the apricots or the sweeter the kernels themselves, the less amygdalene is there, and the less kind of worry, and it immediately made me think, well, that you'll have an answer for that because we've talked about this before, but that also you might talk about your recent investigations into the smell of cyanide. Right. So the the standard description of the smell of cyanide is like bitter almonds, which uh like like almond extract. Uh which uh just seems weird because if you look at the structure of hydrogen cyanide, HCN, that's all there is to it, and then you look at the the aroma compound that gives us the smell of bitter almonds, which is benzaldehyde, which is uh a carbon six carbon ring, they're just so different. How can they end up giving you the same uh sensory uh perception?
+
+[1:08:09] Uh I I was just curious. Uh I thought it was odd. And so I went hunting in the literature, and it turns out that there's really not that good a uh an evidentiary trail to indicate that that's the case, that in fact they do smell the same. Uh and there are several uh sources, one of them in perfumery, one a a forensics text from around the turn of the century, which was talking about how can you tell if there's a suicide, how can you tell whether the person died? If it's uh by cyanide, then you would get this telltale uh odor, except that this guy says that's the standard uh uh explanation and uh what you're looking for, but in fact in his experience uh cyanide doesn't leave that kind of smell.
+
+[1:08:59] Um and this perfumist says that uh the smell of uh cyanide is not the same as uh uh benzaldehyde. So I'm uh I know a couple of scientists who have used it uh uh cyanide as uh uh reagent in their research, and I want to get to them and see uh either whether they can give me their feeling uh about this and uh whether maybe I might take a sniff, a wow carefully controlled sniff myself. Wow, with some uh they can counteract it, right? Or no if they get you right away. Uh that's a good question.
+
+[1:09:38] I should probably check that out before I I would definitely check that because we uh someday we would love to have you back on cooking issues, so I I don't want to read in the uh I don't want to read in the papers that you, you know, that the curious cook was killed by his curiosity. That would not be that would not be pleasant. And that has been our extended fifteen minutes of cooking issues with Harold McGee. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:10:14] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairway Market.com. I'm Chris Coosmi. And I'm Mary Izette. From the You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn.
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+[0:22] If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live, late, but live on Tuesday, the Heritage Redon Network at Roberta's Pichuia. And where is it? Where is Roberta's Pizzeria?
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+[0:47] Where? I think it's Midtown, New York City, right? Wow. It's in Bushwick, Brooklyn Joined as usual with Nistashow, the Hammer Lopez, Fresh and from Chicago. How was it?
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+[1:03] Good. Oh, you gotta give me tips. I'm going to Chicago in a few weeks. Alright, right. All right.
+
+[1:08] Jack in the engineering booth. I'm sure she ate well. Oh, did you eat well? No. Because you were with your sister and you were avoiding any food style people.
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+[1:17] Yeah. Yeah. Last time I was eating out in Chicago, uh two times ago, I saw uh uh a real dillweed in a uh in a Lamborghini who didn't know how to drive it and he was grinding his gears while he was trying to parallel park in front of a VEC. Oh man. Week don't buy a Lamborghini if you can't drive it.
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+[1:33] Oh, you know what? This weekend she's going to Lollapalooza, which is in Chicago every year, and they have competing b not competing, but they have bands playing at the same time. So Paul McCartney's the headliner, and they have somebody playing at the same time as him. Which I'm like, why would you do that? Then they have Sam Smith playing at the same time as Metallica.
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+[1:50] And she's like, I'm gonna see Sam Smith. Whoa. Speaking of Metallica. By the way, before so he can so he can so you can chime in. Obviously, did I already say Jackson Engineering Booth?
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+[1:59] We got Paul Adams. The uh he's the overlord of Popular Science's uh web presence. Is that true? No. Not something like that.
+
+[2:11] Yeah. Or overlord is not the right title. Barron. Baron. You gotta is Baron as what's higher?
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+[2:17] Barron's higher than Earl, right? I don't know. Duke is highest. He goes Duke, then King. I'm pretty sure.
+
+[2:25] Well, Duke Prince King. Anyway, uh wait, what do you talk about? Metallica. Wouldn't you see Metallica over Sam Smith? Dude, uh, Metallica, they hate their fans, right?
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+[2:35] I don't know. I mean they're like they're they're aren't they the anti-piracy? Like the uh we're we're we're so we're so rebel, but don't download our songs. Yeah, plus I saw, speaking of D-bags and cars, I saw like a 30-year-old backward baseball cap, like khaki short wearing dude blasting Metallica out of his Ferrari, his brand new Ferrari in Connecticut. And uh he didn't turn the radio down when he's pumping gas.
+
+[3:02] Jeez. What do you guys think about that? It's not good. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good.
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+[3:06] I mean, I'm okay with Metallica, right? But I'm saying, like, what if he's like next to someone that hates that stuff? Try this leaf. Tell us what it is. Oh, uh what?
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+[3:14] We don't know. It's in the salad. How am I gonna know? I hate it. Paul likes it.
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+[3:19] I like it. Of course, Paul. Paul also likes Sir Stroming. So what is it? Well, this is me chewing people's.
+
+[3:26] Oh, yeah, I know that flavor. That's uh it's it's not, but it's very similar to um this Mexican uh herb. Like Papalo almost? Yeah, I think it is Papua. Really?
+
+[3:41] I'll go look at the menu in a minute. Uh uh, it's very, there's a couple of herbs from Mexico and a couple of other ones that have that distinct taste. It tastes a little bit not like a, it tastes like part, it's got a burnt transformer taste to it. Like a phenolic kind of note. And so I always it hits me in my head, I think it's I think it's Papalo.
+
+[3:57] But there's also uh uh Oh Santa tastes a little bit like that, but with more of a saffron kind of a note. But uh anyway, that's what I think it is. Uh calling your question. Oh, what's up? What's up with the dropping knowledge?
+
+[4:12] Yeah, nice job. That's why you keep me here on the show. That's right. I also have a caller on the line. Okay, caller, you're on the air.
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+[4:17] Yeah, hi Dave. This is Patricia Collar from Brooklyn. How are you? Doing all right. So I got two questions.
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+[4:23] First question is really quick. Is that I'm reading your old post about foraging in the Pop Cut Bay. And you mentioned Yule Gibbon and a book specifically about that. I have stalking the blue eyes scallop, and I was wondering, are you referring to another one besides that, or is that the one? Yeah, no.
+
+[4:42] Uh somewhere I have the scans. Stalking the blue eyes uh scallop is uh an obvious classic. Uh which I I think that one came out after stalking. No, it was scallop first and then asparagus. Those are his two classic works.
+
+[4:55] I think I think it's paragraph first. Asparagus is first. Classic, classic stuff. Um, in fact, Yule Gibbons, for those of you that don't know, like you know how there's a foraging movement going on now, people? Everyone aware of this?
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+[5:06] Yes. Yes. Uh Yule Gibbons was kind of doing that before anyone uh kind of like thought it was cool. He was he was kind of, you know, the man at the time. I think some like you know, like uh real crunchy folks maybe kind of started making fun of him because towards the end of his life he started doing uh pitches for grape nut cereals, so you can find him doing old grape nut cereal ads.
+
+[5:26] He was also in the King and I, right? No, I know that Yule Brenner Brenner. You know, so here's how you tell the difference. Like the one is many parts of a pine tree are edible, Yule Gibbons, and no, I will not let your people go. Yule uh Brenner.
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+[5:40] That's how you tell them. But they both died of cancer, interestingly. Or not. Well, yeah, both yeah, Yule, unlucky name. Uh so anywho, um, it turned out he did some, you know, you're familiar with the outward bound program.
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+[5:55] Yeah. So outward bound is I guess it's kind of like a Boy Scouty kind of a thing where they take a bunch of kids and they threw them on these islands. So up in the Penobscot Bay up near uh up near Deer Island there, uh, they would just take kids like like grains of sand or marbles and throw them out onto these islands and let them fend for themselves for a couple of days. And and Yule Gibbons actually wrote the foraging manual for the outward bound uh thing in Maine. And uh I had uh I never owned a physical copy of it, but I photographed it.
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+[6:25] Maybe I could try to put it now, you know. Back then it was like, you know, uh I was using my four megapixel digital camera. Uh, but you know, I could try to find it and put them up if you're interested. Um, you know, it's uh he has some lines in there actually that I'd like to quote, like he uh he talks about foraging wild strawberries. You ever guys ever forged wild strawberries?
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+[6:44] Well, yeah, they're tiny, you know what I'm saying? And uh they're delicious, but they're tiny. You can't get enough. And Yule Gibbons says in there, he's like, uh God certainly could have made a better tasting berry, but he certainly never did. But I disagree.
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+[6:59] I think I find other berries more delicious because to me, berries become more delicious in mass quantities. Like what you want is a f like a face full of berry in order to get the maximum berry kind of uh effect. But anywho, in this in this little pamphlet, Yule Gibbons talks about like uh you know picking wild rocket and like Sandfear and uh uh muscles. Interesting brings up the point that you get sick of muscles really quickly. Have you ever noticed that?
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+[7:23] Have you ever eaten enough muscles to get sick of them really quickly? Not really. No? Yeah. Usually one serving.
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+[7:28] Well, yeah, so like if you're if you're on a beach, and literally there are beaches up there that are like constructed of muscles on rock. You know what I mean? It's just like muscle on rock. Like, so you it's either you cut your feet with them or you rip them up and eat them. Those are the only two choices.
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+[7:40] And uh yeah, you get sick of those suckers fast. Especially if you don't have anything to put on them but wild uh rocket, although the rocket is delicious. Anyway, but uh did that answer your question or did you have a specific question about the Yule Gibbons? Well, no, that I think I'll track it down. I'm gonna be on vinyl haven, and it might have in a library or something.
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+[7:56] But near enough that it seems to apply to uh I mean that's in the in the same bay, so I assume that's a good thing. Yeah, it's a five. So if you're looking for it, it's uh it's pamphlet size, it's um it's non-standard. It looks like uh it looks like it's it's folded and stapled, uh, you know, like uh what do they call it? Like oak tag, like card not cardboard.
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+[8:16] You know what I mean? That like thick paper back, and it's folded and cut so it's longer. You know what's very similar to are you familiar with the um what's her name? Mary Thielgaard books like uh uh uh tree finder, fern finder, track finder. No, I'm starting with Yule Gibbons.
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+[8:34] Yeah, yeah. Well these ones she's not a forager, she just is like uh tree and and other kind of I ID, which they're awesome little books because they fit in your pocket, but it's kind of that scale, so it's kind of longer than it is. It's like it looks almost like uh like a reporter's notebook but sideways. It's like longer than it is wide for when you're looking for it. But I'll try to post some uh some pictures of it.
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+[8:54] You had a cool one. I'll I'll look for both sides. Alright, cool. You had a uh another question? Second question is it's kind of open-ended, but curious to get your thoughts.
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+[9:02] I'm trying to buy uh a stove, whether it's a range just just uh the a range stop or an entire uh range with oven or a house upstate, and I'm immediately getting into the weeds of all sorts of conflicting information about varying products. And just curious your thoughts about what what you actually need to buy to cook it, cook at home. And all I really want is is fire firepower and reliability. Um I don't really care about any anything else as long as I'm idiot. But it doesn't seem to be that there's that many products designed for people who just want to cook and have output that aren't just commercial ranges that will that I don't have the option of doing because it would violate my insurance policy.
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+[9:43] Right, right. Are you um are you do you is it propane, gas, electric, what? It'll be propane. Propane. And uh but do you have reliable electric where you are, or are you one of those districts that goes out every two seconds?
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+[9:56] And if you do, do you have a generator? I think it's really it's supposed to be reliable, and I have I have uh 200 amp service. Okay. And uh are you gonna get the big old propane tank or are you gonna use one of those Weasley 100s? One of the big ones, whatever the whatever it needs.
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+[10:13] There's gonna be a lot of propane in the L. Oh, okay. So you can kind of go ape on it. Because like I have propane uh in, you know, in uh my place, but I like always get nervous about using it because if it runs out, so I I've I never use my stove. I exclusively use tandoor, like the gr a griddle, and like my oven.
+
+[10:31] Those are the three cooking things I use up there. But I would go s I would go if you have propane to like well, to burn. Uh I would I would uh but you can't get commercial, huh? I don't know who's got the good high output uh residential uh burners because they're all just so weenie compared to um compared to a real well do you think that there's some there's some some products that there's most of them don't have open burners, but there's some a couple ones now that offer open burners and are allegedly high much higher output. My other issue is that the the house has ceilings that are actually fairly low.
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+[11:08] So I'm just wondering at a certain point that I'm gonna risk burning off a ceiling uh with a uh it I think we're about eight foot ceiling. So are you gonna go are do you you have you have outdoor space here, yeah obviously because you have a big propane tank. I mean like what I would what I maybe might do in this scenario is I would first of all on your oven I'd go electric just because they're they're kind of more accurate and then if you ever want to do any baking and stuff, you know and then you know and then if you have half gas, half electric, let's say you're going to then at least you always know you have one. Um but the I would go electric on the oven and um for the stove, yeah I mean I just get kind of either the most powerful thing you can or consider going induction. Because especially if you're gonna be doing like uh like in the summertime uh like any heating on that stove uh I'd be doing that because like honestly most of the time in the summer you're gonna be outdoors rocking the high heat.
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+[12:01] You know that's what I that's what I'm that's what I find myself doing almost constantly. And you can go totally ballistic on the propane outside. If you're going propane, I'm all charcoal outside just because you know whatever I am but it's not because I'm opposed to propane, especially if you were to put like a s actually it's not true. My deep fryer's outside, and that's totally fired on propane. But you can plumb the propane over to like an outdoor kitchen area, and then you can just go crazy.
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+[12:27] Like you could do a fire pit with a propane start. You could do like a giant grill on propane. Um you can even if you wanted. I like everyone knows I'm pro tandoor. Although the time you came, Paul, we didn't use the Tandoor.
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+[12:38] Next time. We use the deep fryer though. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[12:42] Is this helpful at all? Yeah, it's it seems like so there's not it's sort of it just seems like there's no good guidance for out there for for cook. There's all these like very the ranges out there designed for for looks and for people that don't actually use them. Yeah, that's why I hate them. That's why I like I just void warranties and get go go pro.
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+[13:02] But um induction is that is that an option or is that stupid? Because you know, if other people are renting out this house. I don't want them to burn the house now. Oh no, if people are gonna rent it, oh no. No, no, no.
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+[13:12] You need to get boneheaded simple. Ah, he didn't say I didn't realize other people were renting it. Get a boneheaded simple. Get a boneheaded simple propane fire. Don't go induction.
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+[13:21] Someone will break it, they'll put the wrong thing on, they'll complain, they'll smash the the pans down onto the glass lid of the induction and crack it. Propane is bulletproof. It's just most of them suck. But don't buy like buy one that's you know, obviously get like a the the highest uh end uh home one that you can get, like uh, you know, whatever Viking or uh I think uh Vulcan Wolf also makes a fairly decent one, Viking makes a decent one, and then just make sure that they convert it right to the um uh you know, to put the right orifices and the right uh bezos in to to run the I mean and is is is CPU really is it a good measure of the output, or do you just really have to that is it vary from stove to stove? I mean what I mean it does vary, it does vary a little bit in terms of like there are burners that don't have the ability to use their full BTU output properly because they spray the heat around the pan, but um, you know, most like op like most burner technologies are fairly fairly similar in their vast inefficiency.
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+[14:21] Um the you know, the things that I would look for are the ability to turn down uh the um turn it down low, uh, 'cause a lot of burners don't have the ability to go both high and low because they sputter out. And also like a good flame pattern, like a standard home burner with that like, you know, with that little burner that's only like the size of uh like it's like smaller around than a tennis ball. Like that's like hot spot city. You know what I mean? Like I hate those things.
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+[14:48] Um but but also um do not and here's another reason not to go professional. A good reason to go electric, you don't have to worry about gas pilots. If you have an electric stove, like gas things are usually bulletproofs, but if you're up sorry, not stove, oven. If your oven is electric, then you don't ever have to worry about the pilot having a problem in your electric oven. Electric oven's pretty bulletproof uh on that.
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+[15:10] For the for the top, I think the gas is very bulletproof, but don't get something with a standing pilot because then you have a problem if your pilot goes out and you're not there and somebody's renting it. Just get, you know, one of the ones with the click click click that can't be left on uh, you know, that have all the safety features and that 'cause like, you know, some other knucklehead, you know, it's every year I'm more and more astounded by uh how dumb other people can be, especially with your stuff. You know what I mean? There's some keeps you barn them analog I guess for for for cooking here that we're we're we're searching for. Yeah, and also uh like if you're gonna do an outdoor thing, like don't go don't go something super bananaramas unless you can like lock it down to prevent someone else from the state.
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+[15:49] Well that's I think I think the outdoor, you know, that's a you keep talking about all the stuff, and I think like curious as you as you go forward with outdoor stuff, is some of that that's longer term, but you know, doing you know, stuff with wood or charcoal outside and crazy stuff. You know, it's gonna take longer than collecting a stove, but I'm really interested in doing all that. One is sort of off limit, you know, beyond like a kettlebrill or something if anyone's writing it. Yeah, yeah. And it's uh the yeah, it's a hard thing, is as as I'm finding out as anyone will, is that if you're only doing it like two days a week, th you know, three weeks uh out of uh out of a month.
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+[16:22] It's hard to get any anything like an outdoor kitchen built, but we're working on it. We'll let you know what happens. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Bingo. Bingo.
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+[16:37] All right, well, thanks for calling in. Hey, Jack. All right, Jack, do we have another call or should we take a break? Sorry about that. Yeah, we can take a break.
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+[16:44] Oh, take a break. We'll be right back with cooking issues. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for thirty-seven years.
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+[17:26] So it's a feta complet for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com. And we are back, Jack, but I can't come back without Jackie Molecules. Oh, yeah, sorry.
+
+[17:50] Well, I got nothing for you. I do have a caller. All right, all right, caller. You were on the air. Hey, John.
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+[17:59] This is John Darragon. Everyone should be familiar with John Derragon. Hi, John. Hello. Uh, I have a question about Tom Collins's.
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+[18:08] So I uh been drinking a lot of them. I love them. But unfortunately, my house upstate, they want to charge about a buck apiece for a lemon, so it gets very expensive to me. Why is that group? I'm curious about why why is that the case?
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+[18:21] It's true. Why is it that citrus fruit is reasonably priced here in New York, and as soon as you leave, it's a freaking nightmare. Why is that? No idea. I'm bringing a ton of it up with me, but even then it's uh getting a little tiresome schlepping around bags of lemons.
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+[18:38] So my question is can we approximate lemon with some acid mix um that I could use in the case when I run out of lemons? No. Uh but no, okay. Well, here's the thing. Look, you could you could do like uh uh like uh a little bit.
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+[18:55] I mean uh lemon juice for acidity is really just uh like a six percent, roughly six percent citric acid solution, so it's pretty easy. But um, I mean what I would do instead is I mean I would t taste it, but you could uh you could citrusize orange. It'll be a slightly different flavor, but you could just uh citrusize orange. So you would add 50 uh 52 grams of citric acid to a liter of OJ, and that'll get you a lemon strength OJ. And then it'll have an orangey taste, but it won't have the lime taste because you're not adding malic.
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+[19:35] It'll be like on the lemon side of an orange. And you could do that, and that would be fresh. Or alternatively, when back here in the city, you can just take your lemon juice uh and boil it with sugar and do a lemon cordial, and it won't taste like fresh, but it'll it'll uh last, you know, forever. Uh let me see, what are the other alternatives? The thing is with acid is it just things taste like they've been made with acid if they don't have fruit to back it up.
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+[20:00] And I don't know that just squeezing a uh wedge of lemon in will work. But um, you know, the are do you do it with the with the freaking little bar spoon of sugar, or do you do it with like uh old Tom Gin? Like how do you handle the sweetness? You use simple like a human. I do old Tom and simple.
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+[20:17] Yeah, all right. Yeah, you know, like all the do you like those old school ones where people put like actual like granulated sugar into those things? It seems like a freaking nightmare to me. No, because even if they shake it a lot, you still that last two sips, you're basically getting a mouthful of sugar. Yeah.
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+[20:31] And like, but they're supposed to be poorly carbonated, right? That's how it works. Like it's supposed to suck. I mean, you know, suck. Yeah.
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+[20:39] I mean, I I try to use a super heavily decarbonated vintage seltzer, uh, unless I carbonate myself. But the other option I thought if we did the acid, we could actually maybe do a carbonated one, but as you said, it would just end up tasting like an acid fizz at this point. Well, you know, you look, that you could do. You could just do like uh like uh, but you're not using very much of the acid, and then you're squeezing in like a little bit of lemon at the end, like just a wedge. That you could do.
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+[21:01] That you might be able to get away with. Because a carbonated drink typically has less acid in it than um, you know, than if you were to uh because what's it got in it? What's it Tom Collins has got a full half ounce of uh lemon, right? Yeah, I usually do like two, three quarter, half. Yeah.
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+[21:14] So like yes, but they well, the point being that in a carbonated drink it would have a lot less. And so the less there is there, the more you can augment with the wedge of lemon and and uh and have it have it be done. But try the cordial. Try the colour. Yeah, I'll try that.
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+[21:31] I can because I could pick up a case of lemons pretty cheap here in the city. Yeah, although will someone please explain to me why that's the case, why citrus is so expensive uh up in the suburbs? Makes no damn sense, right? Yeah, I don't know. I'll ask the produce guy next time I'm up there.
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+[21:44] I think it's because you can't win. I think like like houses are cheaper there, but produce is more expensive, and you're not allowed to win. That makes sense. Like if you can afford to live in the city, then you're allowed to have cheap vegetables. Does that make any damn sense?
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+[21:57] You're gonna grow lemons, right, Dave? Oh, well, you zoo probably. Cal I'm gonna do I'm gonna do uh Rangpur Limes once they're back. Uh the place I wanted to get them is not available now. I have to learn how to do it.
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+[22:07] Everything takes years. You know this? Yep. Uh rang per limes, yuzu, and uh calamondans are the three that I want to do. Because I like them.
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+[22:16] What do you do with Calamondans? You make drinks, you know. Like they think it's the same as Calaman's, right? Are they slightly different? Maybe they're slightly different.
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+[22:23] I don't know. I don't know the difference. I can't find it like what Nastasi and I were using in Tokyo, the Sudachis. If I could find a tree for that, that would be the balls. Yeah, Sudachi is great.
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+[22:32] Sidachi is delicious, but it's so expensive. Stas remember when we were using those things, and they were like, how when they told us how much they cost, we were both like, oh they were like, because they're the size of they're smaller than ping well, they're ping pong ball size, right? And they were like two bucks a piece or something like this? Crazy. Crazy.
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+[22:49] Alright. Well, I'll try the cordial and I'll uh report back. All right, cordial face. Let us know what happens. Thanks, guys.
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+[22:54] Thanks. John Darrigan. Dave, this is for you. Oh, Paul brought Paul brought some stuff, which he because he said, what are we going to do? What are we going to test?
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+[23:02] What are we going to do? I missed your birthday. Oh. So I got you. Do we have a microwave here?
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+[23:08] What I have in my hands, people, and is this gonna be the new cooking issues, Vigetti? Do you know that Vigetti has never paid us a dime? Do you know that Fat you know Fabulous? Or his real name is Fabian Von Howski and Jeremiah Stone of uh Contra and um Wildair, you know, there are restaurants down there. Do you know that they had a Wall Street Journal article where they used a freaking vegetti?
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+[23:32] Did you see that? They went all vegetti, Wall Street Vigetti. I think the vegetti is like the huge huge thing, you know? Wow. I think we're just riding the uh there's not a video, I think.
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+[23:41] Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, you know, I feel that like uh because of your buddy Claire there, we were we were riding the vegetti, well, I don't know, we're before. I think we're riding the wave. I think he hit it right.
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+[23:52] You know, if you go too early when you're surfing, you don't go anywhere. If you go too late, you don't go anywhere. You gotta ride the wave. Anyways. Here we go on the egg master wave.
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+[24:00] What we have here, apparently, I looked this up after you mentioned it. Uh one of the famous uh late night comedians, maybe it was Colbert or something, uh, made fun of this a year ago, but I don't know if he ever used it. This is the Rolly, the Rolly vertical cooking system for eggs. Now, everyone here knows I'm a fan of vertical grilling when it comes to the Tandoor oven. Yep.
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+[24:21] But we have yet to see whether I'm a fan of it's called Simply Perfect Eggs. W W dot Trirolly.com. Oh, we have eggs here, but do we have a microwave? Does it require it? Fire plugs in.
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+[24:33] It plugs in, we can do it live. Oh my god, it has its own heat source. Okay, so people, as I unbox this, as I unbox this, which is by the way, the reason I I uh I own this is because uh Paul brought some drones up to uh my do you see that kid in Connecticut who who hooked a gun up to his drone? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh he he lost his drone uh at my place and I found it uh the other day.
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+[24:57] Is there a good culinary use for drones? Mythbusters use one to slice a chicken. What? With the rotor to prove that it can cut flesh. You'd need to be very good at your drone control to actually productively slice up a chicken to eat it.
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+[25:16] A cooked chicken. A raw chicken. A raw chicken with a drone. Yeah. But why and it it maintained its altitude while it was slicing the chicken?
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+[25:27] I think it was just uh disembodied drone rotor. Our drone rotor is powerful enough to cut flesh. Yeah, that's cheating though. I want to see the rotor fly and like decapitate. I don't want to see it decapitate, but like in a movie style, you would want to see it decapitate people like uh odd job style.
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+[25:44] Remember Ajob? Okay. Yep. I'm holding it looks like an overgrown coffee thermos with a tube. Let me see whether it smells foul.
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+[25:52] It's relatively neutral now. Has this ever been egged? Is this never been kissed? Brand new. Brand new.
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+[25:57] Alright, do you know the instructions on this? Yeah. Alright, Nastasia's reading the instructions. Paul. There's an outlet behind you.
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+[26:02] All right, how's it going to crack open one to two large eggs directly into the cooking chamber? After I plug it in, or do I um plug it in? Plug it in. Alright. Plug it in first.
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+[26:15] Yep. Alright. And did this somehow know that I've that I've that I've You have to turn the uh red light will indicate power is on. Okay. Green light turns on for the very first time.
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+[26:27] The rollie is ready for use. Did you just have uh Madonna's like a virgin go through your head when you said for the very first time? Does it want butter? I brought a pad of butter. Everything wants butter butter wants uh non strict stick oil spray.
+
+[26:42] No, it doesn't. I brought it. It says not to use butter? No, it doesn't say don't use butter, but I'm sure it's a bit of a big drive. This is bitter bolit infused butter.
+
+[26:52] Oh, we're gonna ruin it. Okay, so Paul found these uh these uh bolids. Now, as far as I know, most bolits are non-poisonous, they're safe to eat, but he took it to a mycologist expert. No, I looked on the internet. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[27:03] And it says if you have something that looks just like a porcini, take a small bite. If it's vilely bitter, it's probably not a porcini. It's probably tilopolis felius, the bitter bolit. And that's what we had. The bitter bolit.
+
+[27:18] That sounds like a really good band. Jack, would you be in a band called Bitter Bolete? Uh maybe I'd produce for them. What about boletus edulus? I like that.
+
+[27:27] Yeah. Porcini. That's good. But the uh isn't that porcini? Put bolitos edulus?
+
+[27:31] Anyway, point being. Oh, it's stinking up good. Smell this. It smells like uh like an RV. Or like a Mexican herb.
+
+[27:41] Yeah. Oh man. It's got that, it's got that uh you know, you know when you like uh get like a bunch of vinyl crap and you're about to blow it up for the first time? You've never purchased anything vinyl like a beach ball? Oh, yes.
+
+[27:55] Blow it up as in inflated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this is what it smells like. Here's Stas. Give it a whiff here.
+
+[28:03] Yep. Yep. Well, we're waiting for Rolly to heat up. Maybe we should answer a question. Paul, maybe you can weigh in on some stuff.
+
+[28:09] What do you think? Well, so wait, if tell us about the bitter bolit butter. You liked it? How long ago did you eat it? It's great.
+
+[28:13] I ate it yesterday and the day before. And it's just the aroma, right? So there's no, there's no, even if it even if you misdiagnosed it, there's no possibility of Right. I didn't let the bowl he come in contact with the butter, but I kept them in a jar together, so the butter picked up the delicious porcini-esque aroma of the bitter bowlite. Are any of the deadly poisonous mushrooms, do any of them have a good flavor?
+
+[28:36] I mean aroma rather. Green light on. I believe they do. Green lights on. Erica says yes in here.
+
+[28:42] Really? Yeah? Yeah. So here, like we you can make ammonita. Uh here, let's do it.
+
+[28:47] Let's do it, because they're gonna kick us off soon. Oh, don't eat the ones that stain blue when you touch it, she says. Now now it smells like a mix of vinyl and bolite. You should swirl that around. Is that what it says to do?
+
+[29:03] Well, I mean, you don't have nonstick oil spray. Well, isn't this fundamentally the same as nonstick oil spray? Uh wait, dude, oh okay. Oh, now what? Do two chopstick it?
+
+[29:14] Uh you can use the package. Uh do two, hurry, hurry, it's cooking. Oh, Jesus. Oh wow. Did you see that?
+
+[29:20] Did you hear the gabloop? Hold on second. Use the packer. Use the use the packer. There we go.
+
+[29:28] Okay, did no one take it out now? All right. Now it says wait six to eight minutes. Six to eight minutes? That's the whole show.
+
+[29:34] Alright, I'm gonna put it down. Paul, tell me when it starts working on something. I'm gonna get these uh I'm gonna get these questions up. We'll hit one on that. It says we're fully cooked eggs, so maybe we take it out at four.
+
+[29:41] I don't think you take it out. I think it takes itself out. It rises. It rises from the mist. Okay.
+
+[29:46] Yeah. Alright. Downloading the uh downloading the uh the the questions. Well you will brought something else to taste as well, no? Yes.
+
+[29:54] I also brought some gelato. Mmm. But this is you said this, you want to tell people what this is? No, I don't. Oh no, really?
+
+[30:01] They can't say taste it, and then you tell them. All right, I'm not well, you told me, so I'm gonna have nostasia taste it. It's not ants or fermented fish. It's quite delicious. Of course, you find Sir Stroming delicious, so it's almost as delicious as Sir Stroming.
+
+[30:15] Thanks. That is good. I don't think she'll guess. I wouldn't have guessed. Alright, Stas.
+
+[30:22] It's really vanilla E. You're really vanilla-e. Mushroom. Oh wow. Candy cap mushrooms.
+
+[30:29] I've never actually had the candy calves before. Blackterius rubitus, I believe. Alright, so we're waiting, we're waiting in the last couple of minutes for our eggs to rise. Ron writes in. Hi, Dave.
+
+[30:40] Hammer and the booth, and Paul, I guess too, didn't know you were here. Um I recently cured Lardo that is now hanging in the walk-in. It was just now that I realized that I accidentally used instacure number one instead of instacure number two. What happened to my Lardo? Is it safe to eat?
+
+[30:53] Is there a way to recover? Thanks, Ron. Well, uh, yeah, it's fine. You know, uh, I don't really think nitrates uh so what you do they wanted you to use a nitrate, a nitrate, a longer lasting nitrate like you would use on a country ham uh for the Lardo instead of the shorter acting nitrite that you would use on something like a bacon or a sausage. But the fact of the matter is that uh, you know, you're curing the fat there anyway, like uh all you gotta worry about is like a little bit of meat that's gonna be on the outside if you don't trim it.
+
+[31:21] So I don't think it's gonna be a problem. You know, uh I looked up and I couldn't find a single case of uh botulism uh in um in Lardo, not a single one. I couldn't find it. Uh and in fact, um I think some people cure, I mean, I know people cure hams just with salt and it goes through the the fat and it's fine. Uh and so I think uh especially on a whole muscle or a whole fat, it's not really whole muscle, right?
+
+[31:45] Because there's no muscle in it. Whole fat, unrendered fat, uh thing like that, I think you're gonna be fine. Um I mean, listen, as my as my son Booker says, if I die, it's your fault. If we're dead, it's your fault. I'm like, I can take that.
+
+[32:01] I can do that. But uh, you know, don't blame me if you're dead. But my feeling is that I feel fine eating it. What do you think? Anyone?
+
+[32:07] Yeah, yeah. Insecure number two breaks down into insecure number one. Right. The only qu the only problem would be is if you were to not have it there long enough. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[32:17] Because it breaks down so fast that by the time it penetrates to the middle of your product, it's not there anymore. Yeah. But there's no botulism in there because it's a whole muscle cut. Right. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[32:27] Uh and there's no meat there anyway. Whatever. Um, Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. This is Chris from the Bay Area in California. I made it to Booker and Dax last time I was in New York and was a highlight of the trip.
+
+[32:38] Very nice, thank you. I recently discovered the show. I've been enjoying it every week. Thanks for making the time to share what you have learned. I'm a home cook and I like to batch my lunches each weekend.
+
+[32:45] I can generally invest a bit more time on the batch and then eat better than average food for the rest of the week. I'm having a problem with this strategy though when using lean meats like pork loin and chicken breasts. First rule don't use those meats. You'd be you wouldn't have a problem with pork loin if you didn't use it. You know what I'm saying, Paul?
+
+[33:01] That's true. Stas, what do you think? Did you ever order that stuff when you're out the pork loin? Mm mm. Never.
+
+[33:06] It's always overcooked and dry, right? Terrible. Always. What do you think, Paul? Yeah, I avoid it.
+
+[33:11] Yeah. Yeah, anyway. I'm not saying I'm not saying it can't be good because it can be good. I'm just saying it's mostly like mostly it has issues. Anyway.
+
+[33:18] How are we looking on those eggs? They're they're coming up. They'll be done in like they'll be done in time. They'll be good. Everything's gonna come together.
+
+[33:24] Everything's gonna be perfect. Okay. Everything is awesome. Okay. Uh I can usually get them pretty tasty.
+
+[33:29] Oh, here. After cooking them, I I let them come to room temperature. Uh oh here. Yeah. I typically brine them with salt, which you need to because they're dry, uh, and then season and grill or broil them.
+
+[33:39] After cooking, I let them come to room temperature 30 to 45 minutes, then I refrigerate. I can usually get them pretty tasty the night of cooking and sometimes the next day, but by Friday, the cold slash warmed over, slash leftover flavors are nauseating. Uh do you have any advice for preparing or holding lean meat uh for five days at a time? Yes. Uh vac it.
+
+[33:58] Like what you're the oxygen is uh oxygen uh oh, I've read that off flavors have something to do with fat oxidation. Occasionally it seems like a starch thickened sauce uh coat does help. I found experimentally that fattier cuts such as chicken thighs don't seem to have as much of a problem, but it seems contrary to the fat oxidation thesis. I know what you mean, but it is true. It does seem contrary, but I know what you mean.
+
+[34:15] You know what I mean? You know what you know saying? Yeah. I think it's because there's no other flavors there to back it up, so the fat uh anyway, whatever. Um I do like fattier cuts, but also cook a fair amount of lean cuts.
+
+[34:25] Also, what projects are in the works? I'm guessing the centerfuge, I'm looking forward to it. Uh more news soon, right, Stas? Yeah. Uh my pectanex clarified juices are nice, but massaging the sack is getting old.
+
+[34:34] Massaging the sack never gets old. Never. Uh also, is there some way to funnel money to you guys more directly? I assume that buying books and other products uh only result in a relatively low margin, making it your way. Thanks, Chris.
+
+[34:45] Well, Stas and I will definitely think about ways to funnel more money our way. But on your lean cuts problem, I suppose since you're doing lean cuts, you don't want to submerge them in oil, which is a good way to do it, right? Submerge them in oil in a bag and and and evacuate all uh oxygen and you're gonna be good. Or VAC pack, or if you do if you s pre-slice vacpack or like zippy with like some sort of sauce and then like freeze them out, then they can thaw really quickly, like inside of like a couple of minutes. What do you think, Paul?
+
+[35:13] You got any good suggestions? I would just vac as is. Vac as is. It's a it's a vacuum storage problem in opening and closing. I would pre-portion uh what you're gonna use and then um and then bag them down and use them during the week rather than op close open close oplows open close.
+
+[35:31] And you definitely don't want to reheat, unheat, reheat, unheat. That's gonna hose you like mega fast. It's like portion by portion kind of a kind of a sitch. You know what I'm saying? I know the egg.
+
+[35:40] But in the long run, use fattier meat. In the long run the long run solution is to use is to use uh fattier meat. Okay, listen. We're getting we're getting kicked off the air here, but so we're gonna have to grab something. The egg is got the eggs gotta rise.
+
+[35:52] Steam's coming out. Rise it. Do I have to do anything to it, Saj? You read the instructions. It's gonna do it on its own?
+
+[35:58] Why isn't it rising? It has been six minutes. Did we not? It has been six minutes. Did we not beat it?
+
+[36:04] You don't have to beat it. It's got here, Paul. Hold this. I'm gonna try the candy cap stuff. Hmm.
+
+[36:09] Should we take a video of this? Another time. Another time? Well, we will discuss the results on next week's cooking issues. Thank you, Paul, for coming.
+
+[36:19] And we'll come back. I'm just looking at these eggs. Ah, it's not gonna make it in time. Come on. It's gonna be horrible.
+
+[36:25] We didn't solve it. It's gonna be the worst thing in the world. This is a this is an enemy of quality. Paul's giving me a machine that makes me the enemy of quality, which I appreciate. It has a little recipe, but I'm sure it does for tubular egg, too, like tubular egg craps.
+
+[36:39] Pre-mix crackers with the eggs, I believe that's one of the recipes. Oh, like, oh, may I? Uh anyway, all right. They really are kicking us off the air here. But uh, we will give you the results.
+
+[36:49] Thanks, Paul, for our rolly egg machine cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Harnell, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good.
+
+[0:51] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And uh got Jack in the in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[0:55] Good. Ooh. Ooh. You hear that? Yeah.
+
+[1:01] What's up? Reverb Jack. That's my new nickname, Reverb Jack. Reverb Jack? Well, you switch between Reverb Jack and Jackie Molecules.
+
+[1:08] Speaking of which, uh, we had a suggestion in uh about uh the hammer. Uh and uh Peg Peggy from Australia. You know, we have some we have some listeners in Australia, which uh which I enjoy. We've never been. Have you ever been to us?
+
+[1:20] Would you like to go? No. You don't want to go to Australia? Why not? Far.
+
+[1:24] What is it? And I hate their accent now. What are you, Booker? So far for an English speaking country. Don't want to go.
+
+[1:31] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, what? Wait, you only want to travel for a far distance if they don't speak English? I just don't have any interest in Australia. I really don't.
+
+[1:40] What about New Zealand? I would go there before, but I s no. Don't have any interest. I I need to kind of know what's poisoning you against the a whole continent. The accent.
+
+[1:51] Oh my god. Well, that uh fits in uh listen, people. This is just like you now you're getting a little taste of what it's actually like to be with Nastasia Lopez. So uh Peggy from Australia uh wrote in, she had a question, but she also says that uh we need a new ringtone for you, Stars. And it's uh it's called uh I just don't like it.
+
+[2:14] And the the artist, it's old, uh, is uh is a drag queen who goes by the name of uh Pauline uh pants down, but making fun of an extreme right wing person named Paul uh Pauline Hansen, right? Uh who was uh had a political party called uh or still there called one nation, and among other things, they believed in uh in like not giving the Aborigines any rights and like basically turning Australia into a big like you know Anglo-dominated univers of no immigration, all this other stuff. And I and uh so one of the lines from this thing is my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered. So very, very uh apropos.
+
+[2:52] Jack, do you have that? Can we can we hear the I don't like it, chorus? Yep. All right, what do we got? Here we go.
+
+[2:57] Me now, it means that I don't like it. When you've turned my voice about, I don't like it. When you vote one nation out, my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered. My shopping trolley murdered.
+
+[3:12] My groceries are just gone. I don't like it. When you've turned my voice about, I don't like it. When you vote one nation out, my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered.
+
+[3:26] My shopping trolley murdered. My groceries are just gone. One, two, three, called. One, two, three, seven, eight races. I don't like shopping.
+
+[3:39] Well, you know what? You can't I can't win with this. It's like egg cup, probably. We don't like shopping trolley. You also do we do you not like British people because they call their luggage rollies?
+
+[3:46] Ugh. And jumpers and all that. What's a jumper? A sweater. Why is it a jumper?
+
+[3:53] I don't know. It's like the opposite. You like pop into a sweater. You don't jump into a sweaty pot. Anyway, so uh, but that sounds like it was actually her voice being used, whereas there's other other versions where it's uh it's uh him singing as her.
+
+[4:04] So anyway, do you think could that be like it, yeah? That could be your theme song? Yeah, I like it. I don't like it. Yeah.
+
+[4:09] You can't hear the Australian accent too hard in it. Dang. Well, it's like look. Okay, okay, okay, okay. I know our accent sucks too.
+
+[4:17] Okay, okay, okay. Listen. It's the worst, actually. What? Yeah.
+
+[4:21] What? Yeah. What? Yeah. What?
+
+[4:23] Yeah. Listen. Uh Jack, back me up because you you are you are a musical sort, right? Yeah. Uh nine times out of ten, when no matter what language, uh, no matter what accent you have, when you sing, you pretty much sing in neutral American.
+
+[4:40] So British, that's true. Right. So if you're gonna say what's the most music Wait, unless you're like uh Green Day or some of these American bands that then put on some other weird accents. Yeah, but what is the Green Day accent doesn't even exist. Like that's not even a real accent, right?
+
+[4:53] I don't know what that is. They try, yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying, so in other words, like the the language of music, which is you know, melodious, is like a kind of neutral American thing. The exam the the counterexamples I actually like a lot, like Billy Bragg, who's could not sound less American, because of course he's not. You like that stuff, Jack?
+
+[5:16] You into the old uh Billy Bragg? Yeah, good stuff, right? How about like the Michael McDonald accent? Well, how does that go? That's I I'm not gonna do it.
+
+[5:23] Wait, maybe you do the guy from the doobies? No, the the guy the you know the piano playing, singing soulful. That's the guy from the doobies. Oh, maybe yeah, maybe he was in the doobies. Oh, I can't do the doob the doobie because the doobie you have to like you can't like you can't outdoobie the doobies.
+
+[5:38] You know what I mean? Even George Clinton uh gave a shout out to the doobie brothers. You know what I mean? Anyway. Uh my language has been murdered.
+
+[5:47] Anyway, so should we should we get to that? What? I said thank you very much. So should we uh now that you've insulted her entire country and said you have no desire to go there? I didn't insult her.
+
+[5:57] Oh I uh look, I didn't insult you. I just insulted your whole country. That's all. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You live there, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:04] Yeah, you were born there, like it's part of your heritage and your culture and everything. But you know, it's not you I don't like, it's your whole country. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, it's not right.
+
+[6:13] I can't believe you don't want to go. What about you, Jack? I with all due respect to everybody there, and I I'm with the stars on this one. What the hell? On my list of places it would be kind of.
+
+[6:25] I mean, uh, convince me otherwise, I guess. I don't know. I mean, you know, it's like how many marsupials do we have? Like one or two? Like a possum?
+
+[6:34] Like the worst marsupial. We have like the worst marsupials. What do you want to do with them? What about platypus? You don't like the platypus?
+
+[6:41] What? What like what's the point? You don't what's the point of anything? What do you think about it? What are you gonna do with that?
+
+[6:47] I'm going to Temple Torah Thailand, and you're like, I'm gonna go see marsupials. Like what? Temple tour of Thailand? They've uh look, I'm with you. You go off the coast of New Caledonia, very rich uh in uh in strange conifers and strange plants in general.
+
+[7:03] Look, all I'm saying is is like, you know, since when are you interested in freaking temples? No, I'm saying what sounds uh the distances, you know, the big kangaroos hopping on the outback? You don't want to see the outback out no I don't have any interest none some of the oldest living things on earth are out there great barrier reef don't care the Great Barrier Reef doesn't get a that sounds good all right thank you like you know Hawaii like for the for waves and stuff yeah no I'm not you're not catching catching a wave and sitting on top of the freaking world styles let's be honest oh jeez is that a call we got to save me from from like my my hateful crew here yes uh caller you are on the air okay um this is uh Jasper calling you from Sweden Hey how you doing good how are you all right so you're having problems locating uh which chiller to use right yeah exactly yeah so uh for those of you that uh follow it's been taking a while so Jasper's putting together a roto vap set up in Sweden and he's looking at uh Bukey who are uh you know manufacturers of the roto vaps and they also make uh a lot of uh chillers and the question is how cold uh does it does it need to go so my old uh work when I back before I was using liquid nitrogen in my rotovap I was using a poly science chiller the poly science chiller made it down to about minus twenty degrees uh Celsius which is about uh chilling power very low so it's so what happens is is that what you do is is you you ha have a relatively large reservoir of either the glycol or alcohol right and you get the whole reservoir down to uh you know minus twenty and change and then uh during the distillation process the um the condenser heats up but uh so like at the beginning so like if you do your standard uh thing where you're putting a a liter of spirits into your into your thing plus whatever uh you've added so like a liter of spirits plus let's say like 200 grams of like peppers or herbs whatever right so uh usually off of that liter um if I start with 40% alcohol uh I'm gonna end up with roughly somewhere between 600 mils and 700 mils of distillate so that those are usually my parameters that's usually where I'm working okay when I'm doing alcoholic distillations so when I'm running um uh the the poly science chiller I'll start out my distillation at like minus twenty or so and by the time I'm done uh I'm I'm much higher temperature like minus four minus five right which is where the where it can maintain forever because that's where it's that's where the chilling power is equal to the um uh equal to the heating power of my uh thing right okay yep so the thing is is that early in the distillation when you get the much more fugitive stuff right the the stuff that boils uh more easily and it's harder to capture more important to have those uh low low temperatures at the beginning of the run versus at the end of the run and so um I never minded so much that the temperature would rise over the course of the run. Now you don't want it ridiculously underpowered or having a very very small reservoir because then the temperature changes are immediate right so you know the one that I was using, the reservoir was a was a lot. It was like uh I want to say like seven liters maybe of s uh uh seven, eight liters of uh stuff in the reservoir.
+
+[10:43] And so, you know, you I had a good bit of um a good bit of stuff that was down at temperature to start my my distillation run with. Now also remember that when you are um you know, when I was doing lower temperature uh or I should say higher temperature distillation using a chiller, I also had the uh I was pumping product uh out of my column as it was going. So as it was heating up, I didn't really have a lot of danger of uh the stuff that was in the receiver flask revolatilizing and going up through my stack and out through the uh vacuum fan. So you can um you can get around that problem either by chilling your receiver flask, right, which works, um or putting a pump onto uh that onto that spherical joint at the bottom where the receiver is, or a third option that I never did was just install uh like a small dry ice uh trap in between. So for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, so that we're talking about a big distillation rig that's hooked up to a vacuum pump.
+
+[11:48] And typically uh one of the issues on these vacuum pumps is they get uh uh if you if you start pumping vapor through the vacuum pump that is with the product, you're losing flavor, one, and two, you're dead, you know, you're degrading the vacuum level because it can't really pump uh you know, vapor other than dry air. It can't, it doesn't want stuff recondensing in. So there's a little bottle called a wolf bottle. And uh the wolf bottle is a something that goes in between your vacuum controller and your um and and and your your condenser column. And what you could do there is you can just put instead of like a standard wolf bottle, you can basically make a little like super cold trap.
+
+[12:25] So you could put like a little bit of dry ice or a little bit of uh LN in there, and then you have a secondary trap to recondense any stuff that's going to go through, and then right at the end of the run, you can just because it's a small trap, it's not your main trap, you can pour your liquid into the into the uh wolf bottle to to thaw out anything that you've got in. So those are the options that you can do. But uh so uh you wrote in to me on Twitter, I think like last night or something, uh but I haven't had a chance to try to talk to Tony yet, that uh Tony Kinellaro, our good friend uh over uh 69 Colebrook Row and Zetter Townhouse and the drink factory in um in the UK, who's uh has a couple roto vaps and does it uses a chiller that only gets down to what'd you say, minus what? Uh plus ten. Yeah.
+
+[13:12] So it surprised me a little bit that uh it was that higher. Uh that's not that's just not true. I just don't believe that. I just don't believe it at all. But we're and neither do I, neither do I.
+
+[13:21] Yeah, I'll uh I'll I'll I got I I got that the fact uh data from Bu C themselves. Yeah, I don't know. I mean look look, uh what I would do is I would uh if you find uh the drink factor the drink factory, um I you know I was gonna tweet them out later and then CCU on it, or you can CC me and the drink factory on a tweet and just say, hey, look, we're looking to get a uh chiller and Bukey lied to us and said you had this, and they'll tell you exactly what setup they're running. I don't believe because Tony likes to run his distillations even lower than I do, right? So you know I'm running my you know, look, it's a little bit of a lie, right?
+
+[14:01] So like I'm running my water bath at 50 uh Celsius, and he's typically running or used to be back when I was working with him on the roto vaps, he was running his uh bath at like 40 Celsius. Now as you know, the temperature of the water bath and a distillation rig is not the same thing as the temperature the distillation is taking place at because you know the the harder the harder you're distilling, you know, uh the greater the temperature difference between the um between the water bath and the actual product. And I and I don't know what kind of glass he uses, but I only use fairly thick walled plastic coated glass. And so I I have a I have one of the one of the higher temperature deltas between my bath and the product. So, you know, my standard operating procedure is to always place the back of my hand um because the front of my hand is too callous.
+
+[14:50] That's why I use the back of my hand to test everything's dyes. Did you know that? I always use the back because yeah, because I can't sense temperature with my fingertips anymore just because you know, whatever. So I use the back of my hand on the uh on the neck of the rotating uh distillation flask to judge the true temperature of the vapor because that equalizes out pretty much where the vapor is. So that can give you an idea of what your um kind of where where you're distilling.
+
+[15:12] So like I say, it's hard to judge, but I know that he likes to run his stuff down at like 40. So if he's running his stuff at 40, like even like the way that Bukey wants you to do it, like they want at least 20 degrees uh what do they want? No, they want forty, right? I think they want forty. They have 40 in difference, yeah.
+
+[15:31] Yeah, and so like that wouldn't even work because it would need to go to even to zero based on uh on his. And if it only went to ten, you could even though Europeans tend to have a hatred of ice machines compared to Americans, like you could just use a freaking ice bath at that point. And so it wouldn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? Doesn't make sense to me, 10 degrees Celsius.
+
+[15:51] Doesn't make any sense to me at all. No, I I I it doesn't make for me either. But however, d do you have like a number? Because I I understand everything you say, but what I can't figure out is like a chilling power at minus 20 C. Yeah, like a number for that, because I don't have a good feeling for that.
+
+[16:09] It's like 300 watts okay, or is it 200 watts okay or I mean it it yeah, so it's quite the loss in in price if you go from uh 200 to 400 watts at minus 20 for instance. So uh makes a hell of a difference. Right. So I would look at so let's say you have like a I don't really I don't remember anymore, but let's say you have like an eight-liter bath, right? And I would look at what its performance is at like minus five Celsius, and I would kind of m maximize that number, and then I would um and then I would just see I don't think mine had two hundred watts at I don't think mine had two hundred watts at minus twenty.
+
+[16:49] I think it was like a hundred and f it's been a many, many, many years. I could try to go look up the old uh numbers on my poly science, but you know, its sweet spot was down around minus five or minus six uh Celsius. That's where the majority of its power was. And then um and then it just you know the power went down. Uh you know, the as you know, listen, people, like any time you reduce the uh temperature on a refrigeration unit like this, you reduce the number of actual watts of cooling power it has, even though you're not reducing the usage of power that the machine has, it just becomes less efficient.
+
+[17:22] So um so yeah, so I would bet that like 200 watts at minus 20 is fine, as long as you have like you know a corresponding, you know, big wallop of power when you get down to minus five, and then you get kind of a natural gradation as you go. Because remember, towards the end of your distillation, you're pumping mostly water, and you don't really want freeze-up on your uh on your coils. You want it to drip down into the receiver. Yep, yeah. But I'll t I'll like either tweet me and s and uh also tweet the drink factory, or I'll try to remember later on today to see what kind of unit they use, because I know that you know they're running them day in and day out, and they use only stuff that you can get in Europe, and I guarantee you that they do not use something that uh only gets down to uh to ten.
+
+[18:06] Plus ten. Yeah, no, it just doesn't make any sense. No matter what Bukey says. Remember, Bukey makes great equipment, they're not cooks. You know, you know, it's no no, no.
+
+[18:16] Yeah, it's that simple. Okay, um they thank you very much for your um information. All right. Uh I will make a tweet and the CCU on that one. Cool um Tony.
+
+[18:28] All right, we'll pick we'll figure it out. Thanks a lot. All righty cool. All right. Bye-bye.
+
+[18:31] Right. All right, now back to uh back to Peggy's uh question in Aust in Australia. And by the way, uh she I don't what what's this emotic? What's this what what's this emoticon? Happy face.
+
+[18:42] But it's not a happy face, it's like a happy rising sun. I think it's a new G uh Gmail happy face. Yeah. So like I don't know how to use uh emoticon, so I literally just write out what the emoticon is. And my favorite is smiling pile of poo.
+
+[18:57] Smiling pile of poo. And have we mentioned on s on we've mentioned on air how much I am upset that Siri won't come out and just say smiling pile of poo unless you text it to me, right? Jack, have we talked about that? No. Really?
+
+[19:08] So it turns out that uh if like let's say Booker or Dax sends me a bunch of emoticons, or let's say Stas does it because you know she has the same kind of mentality that they do, sends me an emoticon, and I do as well. Come on, I'm gonna be honest. Like that says uh that's that smiling pile of poo, right? Smiling pile of poo. And then you say please read me Siri, please read me Nastasia's uh, you know, uh text.
+
+[19:35] And it'll go, Natasha Lopez wrote smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of poop. But if you just go Siri, say smiling pile of poo, she won't do it. Is that right? It's weird. Isn't don't don't we all isn't it a machine?
+
+[19:50] It's not a human, right? Well she'll read you what you get, but she will not be told what to that's the equivalent of someone who like sings NWA lyrics and drops N bombs like they're f like it's raining and doesn't like and and oh but won't say it. Oh I won't say it if you just ask me to say it but if I'm quoting an NWA lyric, well then I can just say it left and right which is not true. It's not true. Either you can say it or you can't say it.
+
+[20:15] Well then she shouldn't say your text. She should be like Dave I won't repeat what Nastasia says because she has foul language right? Or like some sort of like substitution like you do when you're quoting rap songs. Jack you substitute when you quote rap songs. Yeah of course you go with the silence on the word yeah oh really you blank yourself out do you know what who is like remember when um nine inch nails used to do their radio edit stuff and they would literally just blank out the freaking song during the during the curses I was like wow that was strong because because like up until that point most radio edits I knew they would just insert a different word you know I mean or record a separate version but like the idea he's like I'm not gonna change my song man.
+
+[20:52] You're just gonna get silenced during that partner for as much of a jerk as he probably was like he made some baller moves yeah oh yeah yeah. Alright. Anyway, back to this question. I don't know how how do I get into it? What is wrong with me?
+
+[21:04] Do I need to take some sort of medication stuff? I guess you do. We talked about this before. Yeah. Therapy.
+
+[21:09] Uh okay. Uh Peggy again writes in. I love my little A Nova circulator, but like some others who have written in too, I have big issues with the landfill aspect of low temperature cooking. I use Ziploc bags as much as possible, but they have limited reuse before they fail. By the way, Dave, uh great job on nailing down S.
+
+[21:27] C. Johnson about cooking in their bags. That was a long time ago. Remember that? When I finally was like, hey, can I cook in the freaking bags I can, right?
+
+[21:32] They're like, yes, you can. Uh using rolls of thick bagging material and a domestic sealer, I can start with a stupidly long bag length uh length, uh, and for each use sacrifice only an inch or so from one sealed edge. Uh more environmentally friendly as well as frugal, but washing all these used greasy bags. Do you like greasy or greasy? I like greasy.
+
+[21:51] I know. Me too. Yeah, greasy. Uh bags of either sort is just nasty. Which is true.
+
+[21:58] Uh pondering reusable options. Is there a preferably non toxic, and this is where this rising sun smiley like uh although the ro I'm not gonna get into it. Uh high temperature melting wax that could be used uh as a coating for meats. Assuming it was possible to formulate such a wax, would it be theoretically able to transfer heat well enough? Uh it would have to uh uh it would be great to have a coatingslash skin that I could peel off, re melt and reuse.
+
+[22:24] From what you know about materials, is this even a possibility? Or am I just dreaming? Is it just me or would anyone else use something like this? I also kind of like the idea of peeling back a coating to reveal the magic, like with some cheeses. Oh, my you remember the baby bells?
+
+[22:37] Mm-hmm. They're still around. Yeah, you know, Booker loves those things and he likes to peel the wax and he mutilates I'm sure you also a wax mutilator. I don't uh eat those. Even when you're a kid?
+
+[22:47] What about like any wax coating on a cheese? Jack? I'm a wa I'm a wax mutilator. You're a wax mutilator? Big time.
+
+[22:54] Oh, yeah. Because it's fun. Oh, yeah. Do you like Stas? Do you like those wax candies, like those wax lips?
+
+[23:00] You know, I like all those wax bottles that you won't let me eat. Nickel nips? Yeah. No, I was buying those for my freaking brother. That's why I didn't have a few minutes.
+
+[23:06] No, you wouldn't let me eat them in the car. What? In your car. You said your car would get dirty. I did not.
+
+[23:12] Anyone who knows me know that's a ridiculous thing to say. Anyone who's met me or the fact that like I carry my lab. No, no. First of all, there's no dust from a nickel nip. It's a liquid wax phenomenon.
+
+[23:25] I just probably knew that you were gonna crumple up the wax and like you know what? No, no, no. I'll ask who's with us. No one piper. No.
+
+[23:33] No, no, no. This is crap. First of all, I should record everything. You should. And in full context, no like weird editing.
+
+[23:41] Nastasia is the queen of weird editing. I don't know how to edit. You know, no, I mean like Nastasia, like well, Nastasia will like do like a big Socratic thing where she drags you through a half an hour of arguments and like with like like a billion conditions, and then like, okay, in the event that, you know, I was on an island and an airplane and and blah blah blah, and it ends up with you cutting your foot off and eating it. And then she's like, that's that's what but then when you talk to someone else, be like, Dave wants to cut off his foot and eat it. No, I don't.
+
+[24:08] It's just like if you give me a whole bunch of things that lead up to it, would I cut off my foot and eat it if that's what's never the one that we talk about? Please. Family show. Um okay. So back to the question.
+
+[24:21] Um coating. Wax coating. So, like, you know, I'm thinking something like uh a botarga. It look, obviously it would be possible to get a a wax coating that would melt at a high enough temperature, but I think you're gonna have problems. Remember, if it melts at that high temperature, uh, then you'd have to get it up to that temperature to dip the uh meat into.
+
+[24:41] And if it was that hot, when you were dipping the meat into it, it would start steaming the um it would start steaming the the moisture that was in the meat. So I think you'd have uh I think you'd have problems basically. When now, there could be um, for instance, like a a self-sealing wax or something like this that you could just press onto the wax to to do it. I think in the future, what's gonna happen isn't necessarily although I do actually kind of like the idea that you have a steak and then you peel back the wax and then kind of sear it. You don't like that idea, Stu?
+
+[25:10] I kinda like that idea. What color is it in your mind? The wax red. Red? Mm-hmm.
+
+[25:16] Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking not black. I hate powdered black wax everywhere, like from like uh like or like I actually hate the powdered wax from like the uh liquor bottles. I hate the powdered wax everywhere because it when it gets old it gets dry and brittle, right?
+
+[25:30] Don't you hate that? And then it's like crumpling everywhere, and you're like, why is this happening to me? But um in my mind it's that weird translucent beeswax color. Oh. Okay.
+
+[25:39] Yeah. Like a like a Matthew Barney sculpture. Anyway, um, I think the future here, uh, Peggy, is that someone's going to uh do um like a uh a bioplastics bag that can be composted. I mean that's what's gonna happen. Right now, it's uh somewhat difficult uh for a number of reasons because they don't last long and uh hard processing and stuff like this.
+
+[26:00] But someone's gonna make up a uh a bio um compostable bag that uh works and then we just won't feel bad about it. What do you think, Styles? Would you people wouldn't feel bad about it if it was like corn plastic, right? Right. Yeah.
+
+[26:13] What do you think, Jack? Sugar plastic. Sorry, yeah. Sugar sugar plastic. Is that your new band?
+
+[26:18] Sugar plastic. Uh but there's all there's people who make those resealable silicone things, but just the idea of reusing those bags and not getting them 100% clean, the thought of like my dishwasher stuff full of bags with like greasy crap, and then when you don't put rinse aid in your dishwasher and then it elites those little particles. Don't you hate that? Hate it, hate, hate. Okay.
+
+[26:37] Uh and she writes in a quick response to why anyone want to eat tomato blossoms. Remember we had someone saying that and be like, You're getting weird tomatoes. Peggy brings up a good point here. If you want to increase the size of tomatoes, you can thin out the blossoms or baby tomatoes, leaving the others to grow larger than they would have done without uh with the competition. Well, flowers probably wouldn't kill you unless you ate lots.
+
+[26:56] Have you ever tasted them? Not a flavor I'd go looking for again. I suspect the person inquiring about their edibility has not yet tried one. Garden Betty had a post on uh what she could find out about tomato plant toxicity, but I was unable to access her sources. Long story short, she now uses some tomato leaf uh in her tomato sauce as a seasoning.
+
+[27:15] Uh and she thanks us for uh the show. Uh by the way, with um tomato, remember back have I ever done the distillation of tomato leaves for you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.
+
+[27:26] That's really good. I love that. So, like for any of you who have a roto valve out there and can do uh like low temperature distillation, at the end of the season, after you've gotten all your tomatoes in, but you still have greenery, take the greenery and turn it into a distillate and that stuff My greenery has small spiders on it. Well, we told that story on the air, right? How like you shipped these parasites from California into your New York garden and obliterated everyone's tomatoes, and now people because you don't control the garden, you can't have tomatoes not planted for a year, and no one there understands that like in order to kill this California pest, they need to let the land lie fallow for a couple of years because like every plant that you have has this like agricultural nightmare.
+
+[28:08] Like who knows, you know? I don't know. Maybe it'll spread. Maybe you've ruined the entire eastern seaboard. Who knows?
+
+[28:16] Yeah. Anyway, should we take a break, Jack? Yeah. Uh yes. All right, coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[28:34] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway Butcher Counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have.
+
+[28:51] And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity.
+
+[29:19] The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at Heritage Foods USA.com for more information.
+
+[29:58] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Eat them to save them. So before we get back to the show, Dave, I don't know if you saw, but a little boy came up to the glass while me and Stas were doing our pre-show show that nobody gets to hear every week. Pre-show show.
+
+[30:11] Yep. It's called Issues. Yeah, we just complained. That's how you that's how you uh that's how you fluff the crowd up with the Yeah, because that's the opening act, yeah, exactly. Yeah, nice.
+
+[30:20] And this little boy came up to the uh the glass window here and held up a napkin that said, We love hammer. Yeah. And it said, and Jack and Dave too, in small letters. Right. Yeah.
+
+[30:33] But it was mostly about Hammer. Nice. Yeah. Well, that's that's typical. Nastasia, as much as she like, you know what?
+
+[30:41] I'm like, it's not that I'm a jerk. I'm just real. That's all. You know what I mean? Like, really just wants uh acceptance, you know?
+
+[30:47] Yes. Yeah, yeah. And wants to be accepted for who she is. That is true. Yeah.
+
+[30:53] Uh hey, we got uh we got uh friend of the program uh uh curious Claire writing in again. And that's yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hi, Dave. When is raw too raw?
+
+[31:07] When is raw too raw? And so now that's my favorite question we ever got. Yeah, so now I have the uh I have that Buster Ry Buster Rhymes is now going through my head. Yeah. Everything we make we make raw.
+
+[31:20] Uh right, isn't that what he says? I make sure everything remains raw. Raw. That's it. Can we can we call that up because I love it so much?
+
+[31:29] We don't have the rights. We don't know the rights to that. Even for like playing like it's like we're like it's a discussion. It's like educational. It's educational.
+
+[31:34] It's like a news program talking about Busta Rhymes. Who you know how you know why Buster Rhymes disappoints me? Why? Right. Because, like, you know, when you're young, like being like uh a homophobe, I could be like, you're young and just ignorant, but he's been around the world like a long time, and he's maintained his kind of homophobic stance.
+
+[31:51] Yeah, which is, you know. Not gonna get into it. Uh when is raw too too raw? Uh I am scared of meat that is too red because I feel like I'm eating a live animal. At what point does it go from mucow to dinner?
+
+[32:09] Curious Claire. Okay. So what we have here is a psychological question, right? Because and I cooked steak last night perfectly. But then she used the sears on the cut pieces and like obliterated it.
+
+[32:21] Well, how thick did you cut the pieces? It was skirt steak, so thin. Yeah. Okay. So for instance, you can like okay, so the color of a meat is what people use to judge how done it is, right?
+
+[32:37] But the color of the meat can lie. Uh, you know, quite clearly it can lie, because uh the uh myoglobin, which is what's providing the color, the primarily what's providing the color in the in the meat, um, the color that it takes on when it's cooked is dependent not just on the temperature that it's reached, but the environment in which it reaches that temperature. So the oxygenation state of it, also the rate at which it's heated, right? So you can take a piece of meat that's cooked uh low temperature, right? You can overcook it, right?
+
+[33:11] And then when you cut it and you let it sit for a while, undenatured myoglobin will get oxygen hit on it, and boom, it'll it's what we call a cherrying up, and it'll just turn this kind of bright, kind of like freaky cherry color. You've seen it happen, right, Styles? And this can flip people out, right? Which is why, in general, when you're doing a sliced uh when you're doing a low temperature meat that's cooked for a long time, um, especially one that tends to have a lighter background, like so you know, like uh I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[33:39] But like i what I'll do is is you slice it right beforehand so it doesn't have a chance to cherry up and then people don't notice, or you can throw it, flash it under a broiler, which is in essence what Claire did with the Searzol to just kind of take that color off. Now you can do it fast enough with a cerezol that you don't actually overcook the meat if you're quick. I'm sure she hammered the hell out of it because she's worried about it. But the uh no, it's salt, you know. Uh but um the point is is that um we kind of, you know, the old saw, we taste with with our eyes first.
+
+[34:12] So like I can I can cook a chicken, like I say, fully through, but it has uh that persistent pinking at the bones if it cooks slowly enough, and then people won't eat it even if they know it's cooked. So the where things actually become cooked is a it can be measured based on like what's happening with the proteins. Where it looks cooked depends on a number of variables that are very hard to control. So, you know, you could shut your eyes. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:40] Like this is like uh like when I uh w when you when I remember when I was doing eggs for uh like a long time ago when you first started doing low temperature eggs, right? They if you're not used to a low temperature egg that's let's say 62 degrees, which is like the perfect yolk uh texture and that uh for like uh um eggs benedict, right? And it had but it has like kind of a it has kind of a weird look on the white if you're not used to it, right? So for normal folk, we would pass them through simmering water, right? But really it's just a visual thing because once you coat that egg with Hollanday sauce, ain't nobody complaining.
+
+[35:15] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So uh a lot of this stuff is really really just uh visual. Now if you're talking on a textural basis when's it done that has a lot to do uh that does have a lot to do with temperature but also time. So if what you actually want is something that's firmer and No no it's not that it's like am I eating an animal like looking at an animal it's all bloody oh it's bloody it's blood.
+
+[35:39] It's not really blood but I know it's not really blood it's like you know when you put the steak on the plate and juices run out she's like duh blood get it off well even a high temperature cooked meat's gonna have those juices unl you know unless you let it rest. So you let it rest and if by God if I catch any of you cooking meat until the juices quote unquote run clear I will find you like that's overcooking by so much you know what I mean like what a nightmare. Whoever invented that like is a hater of food it's like my you know grandma and grandpa used to have that like that like onion soup mix on top of the microwave like piece of beef you ever have that? No but I know what you're talking about is it dead yet is it dead listen Claire Claire Claire the animal has died once don't kill it again. That's all I'm gonna say you know dang.
+
+[36:29] Yes. Alright did that did I even answer the question? I hope so. I don't know Jack you're back there. Did I answer the question?
+
+[36:36] I don't know. Yeah I think so. When is raw too raw look it like I say it's it it's a matter it's a matter of taste. But I will say uh cooks need to take into account the reaction of their uh diners, right? So on a skirt steak, how'd you cook it, Studs?
+
+[36:50] Just in a pan. Yeah, but like describe it. Oh, I salted it and then I put oil in the pan, got it hot, threw it in, flipped it. Okay, a skirt steak is like what, like a centimeter, centimeter and a half? How many, how many, how long on each side?
+
+[37:05] I don't know, three minutes each side, four minutes each side. Oh, so you cook you cooked it. I cooked it. Yeah. So what was happening there is you cooked it, and uh you probably didn't let it rest before you sliced it.
+
+[37:15] No, I let it rest. And then I sliced it, yeah. Really? For like five minutes, not long. Yeah, well, you don't want it to congeal and get nasty.
+
+[37:22] And then I cut it and there was the middle was perfect. But just seeing red. Chesare perfect or perfect perfect. Perfect perfect. Cesare Casella, uh uh, you know, one of our good friends, the man likes raw inside meat, char on the outside.
+
+[37:37] But he uses good meat, so it's fine. Me too, that's how I like it. Yeah, what are you a black and you're a black and blue man? Pittsburgh? Exactly.
+
+[37:43] All right. Did I tell you what I was talking to someone? I was like, uh, so she's like, I'm f no offense to people from Pittsburgh. I was like, I was like, uh hey Pittsburgh, I hear Pittsburgh's a good town. You ever been there, Jack?
+
+[37:52] I've never been there. I've been there. No, but I want to go. One of the managers here at Robert is opened a place in Pittsburgh. Really?
+
+[37:58] Anyway, so she goes, Yeah, Pittsburgh's great if you like racists. I'm like, wow. Yikes. I did not know that. I think she was just in a bad mood.
+
+[38:06] I don't know. I don't know. Someone tested to call me and tell me what it's like in Pittsburgh. But I heard it's a nice town. Did I say her?
+
+[38:12] What am I from? St. Louis or something? Anyway. Uh we got another question in from uh BJD.
+
+[38:19] Uh longtime listener, several time emailer. Want to try my modern hand at uh palette de pork a la bière. What's palette meaning? Anyway, like plate, right? I don't know.
+
+[38:30] Yeah. Of pork with beer. Uh I've made it following Bourdain's instructions in the Les Al cookbook. It was delicious, which probably means do not mess with success. Uh I've circulated shoulders before smoking in the past.
+
+[38:44] That worked well. I was wondering about circulating a pork shoulder dish that is traditionally braised. Would it end up uh being a final product with only the sauce uh reminding the diner of the original? Uh would it present more like steak? Am I a fool?
+
+[38:58] I have ten weeks of paternity leave with a four-month-old and a three-year-old. Hey, good luck. Uh it will be a battle. I'm hoping to dial in some recipe ideas, Sunday suppers. Listen, my memory of being with a four-month-old and a three-year-old, because I had that exact thing, is like, you know, I'm not planning my cooking time.
+
+[39:15] I'm like trying to plan when I can go pee. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? It's like when can I just like or a shower? Imagine.
+
+[39:22] Like taking a shower, you're like, oh, a shower. Anyway, uh, I'm hoping to dial in some recipe ideas, uh, Sunday suppers with my circulator and my new uh rock espresso maker. Uh while uh is it rock? Is that d does anyone know? Is that the one with the two levers?
+
+[39:36] Or is that some new one that I don't know, electronic? I gotta look it up. I didn't look it up beforehand. Uh because I was testing some new equipment. By the way, I shouldn't say the reason I might not be as prepared today as I normally am is because I was testing some new equipment that we'll be talking about soon that uh Booker and Dax is working on.
+
+[39:52] Yes? Yes, does Stas Nastasia is the sole determiner of when we discuss the specifics of what we're doing uh on air. That's it's I would discuss it now. Really? Yeah.
+
+[40:04] I know. Well, I mean, like don't we have to see what we need to protect or no? No. No, we'll see. Let me finish the question here.
+
+[40:13] Um any tips on things to try with either my circulator or uh R-O-K. It says espresso in quotes. I gotta look up what it look up what it is, Stas. R-O-W. R-O-K, capital R, capital O, capital K.
+
+[40:25] I want to master whole muscle meats uh that can get us through a week. Uh I'll stop type type typing and listening in two days. Uh very respectfully, BJD. Okay. So uh congratulations on uh the uh four-month old.
+
+[40:37] Um in my uh experience, which is oh yeah, it is the one with the lever. Uh in my experience, I haven't had it, I haven't used that thing for infusion, so uh I don't know, but I hear it's a very nice machine for making espresso, so you're gonna need it. So I would keep pounding out those double shots so that you can uh you know have your brain uh working. Um I have extensive experience in doing braises uh in both the bag and in um in tradition. If you want something to taste like a traditional braise, a braise, right, then you have to extremely over reduce the sauce that you're using because the um there's no reduction inside of the bag, right?
+
+[41:19] So what happens is is you make a sauce that you think is good, uh, and you're like, oh, that's gonna be good. You use a stock, you make it rich. Then you put your uh seared piece of meat into the bag, and then uh as it cooks, the uh moisture leaves the meat, right? Uh and as the moisture leaves the meat, it waters down uh the sauce. The sauce is no longer the perfect flavor level, it's been watered down, and so now when you pull out, instead of tasting like a braise, the w the example I always use is it tastes like a pot à pho.
+
+[41:51] It's good, but it's not necessarily what you're looking for. It's more of a poached uh or cooked in broth kind of a situation rather than a brazing phenomenon. If you want something to taste braised, you have to go extremely reduced on uh the sauces and stocks that you put in, like ping-pong ball kind of uh reduction. The other thing is in a braise, any veg that you put in, you should pre-cook the veg because the veg will not cook in uh in the bag. So typically what I'll do is I'll sweat out all of the stuff, uh pour in the uh stock, reduce or whatever, you know, whatever sauce, reduce it down until once it's hard, once it's done, it's like ping-pong ball uh consistency of gelatinousness.
+
+[42:34] Then I'll sear the meats, throw them in and and and go to it. But now you're looking at having a much kind of a longer uh procedure. Now, even if you did that, what happens is is that let's take uh you could take a pork shoulder, or you could take a short rib, or you can take a um you could take like a cock of vin, any like pick any braise that you want. Um what tends to happen is if you were to do a side-by-side tasting between a traditionally done one and a one that's done in a circulator, most people, if you present them as being a traditional braise, will choose the traditional one. And the reason is that it is uh just a uh things tend to taste uh more meaty, uh right?
+
+[43:22] They taste more like people traditionally want them. If you bend your expectations and you tell people that what they're because for instance, in a traditional braise on a piece of beef, uh that beef will get that kind of stringy braised texture, and and the the gelatin will melt out of the meat and get everywhere, and so you'll have that kind of gooey, you like that stuff, right? That stick to it, like stick to your ribs, gooey kind of like texture thing that people like. Whereas low temp, it's or with pork, it's the same thing. Low temp, the meat is gonna retain its shape, it's gonna retain a lot more of its moisture, it's gonna have a different overall taste and texture.
+
+[43:58] And in if you don't prime people for it, then they tend to prefer the kind of traditional one, even though I think that the low temperature one is like a delicious product in its own right. And so that can be an issue. On things like confie or other long things, I'll tend to when I want to do it in a bag, because bags can be convenient, right? So you cook it in a bag, then you can save it and it doesn't degrade over time, so you can you know have it over the course of a week. But when I'm doing things like that, I'll typically do them at traditional temperatures so that I have that kind of traditional taste and texture.
+
+[44:31] Uh and so you can do that with a bag. Another thing you can do, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but if you want to do these long because I don't even have one, crock pot. You ever have crock pot? And when I was a kid. Oh, I'm about to go.
+
+[44:57] So listen, Stas thinks I'm gonna talk to her off air, and we'll come back. I have some more questions I didn't get to. I'll get to them uh next week, I hope. You know, unless I need to do another ketchup thing. But uh maybe next week we'll talk about uh our our project that we're working on.
+
+[45:10] Yeah. Well, this has been That's a cliffhanger, huh? Oh yeah. Cliff hanging cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[45:25] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[45:44] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network at Robertus Petruina in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[0:46] Good, good. Glad to hear it. And of course, we got Jack in the engineering booth. Hello. And special guests in the studio today.
+
+[0:53] We have two of them. We didn't get uh even though Harold McGee is in town, he's not our special guest today. He's on a he's on a leash for the Museum of Food and Drink. More to announce on that in the next couple of months. But we are super pleased to have in the studio with us today.
+
+[1:06] Ariel Johnson, who is the uh the head researcher at MAD with 1D. You want to describe what that is, Ariel? Oh, so MAD is uh started as a symposium and is like a food and food research nonprofit uh that's run out of restaurant NOMA in Copenhagen. Yeah. And and NOMA is like uh anyone ever heard of that restaurant?
+
+[1:26] Maybe maybe a few people. Maybe a few people have heard of that restaurant. Um also Don Lee. And uh Don, you want to tell them what uh what you do-ish? I currently work for uh Cocktail Kingdom, doing a little bit of product development and also working on trade education now.
+
+[1:41] Yeah. Uh yeah, more like uh more like Don is the evil overlord that runs kind of the back the behind the scenes of the way the cocktail like world works. Like that's your his actual title is is Evil Overlord. That's yeah, that's the subtitle. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:57] The invisible hand. He's actually, yeah, yeah, the invisible hand that feeds uh or or removes. But he's not an evil overlord. Benevolent, though. Benevolent overlord.
+
+[2:06] In the sense that an overlord can be benevolent. In a true uh kind of uh Aristotelian platonic, you know, kind of uh philosopher king. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, so he runs he runs he runs the kingdom for the betterment of it's aptly named Cocktail Kingdom.
+
+[2:22] Yeah, that is apt. You know, because he yeah, runs the kingdom. Anyways, Don may or may not also uh oh and by the way, uh Ariel uh before she was the uh the researcher at um at uh Mad there uh Noma uh was a your postdoc there, right? No, no, I was uh like PhD student. PhD students so got her PhD from UC Davis, and her uh thesis was on the bitters.
+
+[2:49] B bitters, correct? Correct flavor chemistry. Flavor chemistry, specifically of bitters. Uh and so uh we have them on the we're gonna get some by the way. If you have any questions uh for this crew, I encourage you to call in to 7184972128.
+
+[3:05] That's a 718-497-2128. And uh because we have no sense of uh brains, like we like uh I didn't heat up water beforehand. Um we're gonna be tasting a little bit later on uh in uh the program this product called Vipova. What the hell does that mean, Vipova? Did anyone read their literature?
+
+[3:24] No. No. I think I think they had some kind of statement that it's about like vitality and something else. Vitality? It's one of those invented words.
+
+[3:32] Yeah. Yeah, nah, vitality. I don't know what the Pova part. Pova, like Pavlova? Maybe.
+
+[3:38] Pavlovian. Do you like? Well, I was thinking of like the uh the Oh, like the delicious dessert? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:42] Do you like those? Yeah, they're delicious. What are your thoughts? Meringue's and fruit and cake or you know what's a good word, like not related, but I'm just thinking of piping stuff out. You know what's a good word?
+
+[3:52] Dequoise. Decoise, that is a good word. Good word, right? So uh Ariel may or may not be an expert in the chemistry of what's uh going on uh in this, and Don may or may not be an expert. Oh, what is this Vipova uh stuff?
+
+[4:09] Uh this Vipova stuff is uh a legal tea with cannabis extractives in it, and Don may or may not be an expert on cannabis extractives. When he is in certain states, jurisdictions and countries, he's an expert. Now he's Lan D, right? Oh, oh yeah. Yeah, we have another person in the studio, his name is Lon D, and he's gonna be discussing his maybe first hand knowledge with maybe products uh like this, right?
+
+[4:41] Yeah, he's coming soon. Yeah, yeah. He'll be here in a minute. So uh so you guys want to weigh in on exactly what it is that we're gonna be tasting here, what this Vipova stuff is? Anyone?
+
+[4:51] Anyone? Anyone? Well my my guess is that it's basically like uh they just took some hemp oil, extracted some you know, cannabinoid compounds into it, and then put it into the tea in the same way you would make like an earl gray tea instead of bergamot oil. It's just some kind of cannabinoid oil. Yeah, they took one of these like low THC strains that you can get um that's like high in the other cannabinoid compounds, and then enrich that by like a fat extraction entity.
+
+[5:15] Okay, so why do I want that? First of all, is it is it a tasting? Like, do you like the tea? If you had had marijuana tea a lot or extractives, do you like the taste of it? I've never actually tried doing a water extraction in the kind of a tea sense because you're not gonna extract it because it's a oil soluble.
+
+[5:31] Exactly. So you normally wouldn't do that. Uh the flavor though would be, you know, it just would tastes like dried grass mostly. It'd just be bitter. It wouldn't really be a specific kind of uh like maybe sort of vaguely herbal.
+
+[5:41] Right. Like your bumate? Uh a little bit more green than your mate. Do you find your remate nasty or good? It's okay, but it's it's almost more of a bark kind of uh uh flavor.
+
+[5:53] It's more tannic. Hmm. Really? It's not woody. It's surprising that it's like why is it compared compared to marijuana, I would say.
+
+[6:00] Oh, uh oh, mata is more than a any ideas you guys on why anyone would want this to have this stuff? It says it gets rid of schizophrenia. It says it does a lot of things. Count me in. Yeah.
+
+[6:13] Yeah. Uh there's cancer, apparently. Yeah. I mean, so like cannabinoids as like a class of compounds tend to have varying different effects on like the brain and your neurochemistry. Um, and where like THC is really good at psychoactive effects.
+
+[6:33] Cutting you stoned. Um the cannabidiol has like other less sort of stoning mental effects. Like well, it's like supposed to help with like anxiety and depression and can like stabilize more like uh other mental disorders like schizophrenia, apparently, maybe. Well, it's just according to their data or stuff you've read, I've got to be a few. I mean, I actually I Googled this this morning and there's like there's a lot of interest in like C B D as uh as like a therapeutic cannabinoid.
+
+[7:09] Right, right. A lot of interest, but but no uh not a lot of uh studies in except for specific. Oh yeah. So did you know okay. It acts on like different brain receptors than THC.
+
+[7:14] Right. So is the is the question is is that for those folk that self-medicate with marijuana to to get themselves mentally right, which you know we all know. You know, uh so is the speculation that's not actually the THC that's helping them self-regulate, that's just a side benefit. Well they might want to be looking for like a high cannabidiol strain rather than a high. So why not both?
+
+[7:44] What's wrong with just having both? Well, you could do high both, but why not? Yeah, why not do why not do both? Why not do both? Indeed.
+
+[7:50] Uh Uncle Sam, that's why. Yeah, yes, he's holding us back. Exactly. Government conspiracy. So like uh the like uh d do this like does this uh C B D stuff and I say what is it, cannabba what?
+
+[8:02] Cannabidiol? Yeah. Does this cannabidiol stuff uh like uh make you confused at all or no? Can you operate heavy machinery while you're using cannabidiol? I guess we'll find out.
+
+[8:13] Like uh well, I have no heavy machinery to operate. I'm sure we can find it. We can probably get some. Yeah, find some Jack, you got any heavy machinery over there? Um I'm not d would you count recording equipment as heavy machinery?
+
+[8:24] Only if you lift it up and try to throw it over your head and put pretty heavy. Yeah. I can make heavy sounds, I mean. Oh my god, do you have one? Let me we should get one before we go to what's the stuff that makes you hungry after you've uh smoked up.
+
+[8:40] Is it this stuff or is it? I I don't know. I think it might be THC though. Oh, that's straight up THC? I I think like the um this helps like counter some of the like negative effects of THC, like uh paranoia and such.
+
+[8:53] So this is not gonna make you paranoid. This will not I don't think so. We'll find out. Yeah, we'll find out. Well, but Stas says it takes like five hours to kick in, so we'll have to let you guys know next week how we feel.
+
+[9:01] I don't know. I don't know how this works. By the way, so like we're not gonna have to load up the chopped and screwed version of Mary Kate and Ashley's uh pizza song. Pizza. I think we should Piazza.
+
+[9:12] Share that with the world, Dave. Pizza. That's like I just learned about that yesterday. See, I'm so behind on my internet like uh viral videos that uh, you know. Anyway, we didn't talk about the chicory ice cream last week, right?
+
+[9:25] I didn't get to that one. I did. I did talk about chicory? All right. I like to get I like to you sure I got to the chicory?
+
+[9:31] I think so. Jack, did I talk about chicory last week? I don't remember. I don't think so. Stas was just about to Ellie wrote in and was just about to get nuked because Stas was like, Yeah, I don't care about that question.
+
+[9:40] I don't want you to answer it ever. Whoa. Okay, and uh Ariel, you'll be good on this. Uh and you never you ever do you like you Don, a frequent denizen of New Orleans, do you enjoy chicory coffee? It's okay.
+
+[9:51] You hate it, like a good person would. It's it's quaint. It's the the custom of uh you know of New Orleans. So the same way they'll have a beignet when I'm down there. I don't really look for one up here.
+
+[10:00] I'll have uh you know a little chicory coffee with my beignet. Yeah, I think it's n well, I don't like milk in my coffee, and they dump so much milk into it to make it palatable that like I don't know, yeah. Do you know that I don't know? I'm not gonna get into it. Okay.
+
+[10:11] Uh I was recently trying to make chicory ice cream and started off by simmering the milk, turning off the heat, and dumping the ground chicory root in it like I would do in making coffee ice cream. Well, that did not go too well, and the milk curdled a bit. I suppose chicory is acidic question mark. I assume chicory is acidic. Right?
+
+[10:28] I don't think it's looking it up for you. Or is it maybe some other reaction to cause the curdling? Maybe a lower heat would not cause this to happen. What is the best way to infuse something like that? Uh ISI or maybe cold infusion in the fridge for a longer period.
+
+[10:41] And idea, any idea if there's a listing of some sort of rule or th of thumb for ingredients that could curdle milk like that and should be infused some other way. By the way, I did not throw away the curdled murk milk murk. Pizza. I strained it very well and blended it with 50% sugar by weight. I'm hoping to use it in cocktail experiments and see how it tastes.
+
+[10:58] Any pointers about that spirits methods. Any pointers on that, Don? Like chicory whey? Chicory whey. Chicory Hway Whey.
+
+[11:11] You could I mean worst case, just try to try freezing it and using it as your ice. You can add a little bit without making too much chicken flavor. But he turned it into a simple syrup. It's already a syrup, yeah. Shake with it.
+
+[11:21] Shake it. Yeah, shake. See what happens. Shake, shake. Like a Polaroid picture.
+
+[11:24] Yeah, shake it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. See you shake your tail feather. Anyway, my point is is this.
+
+[11:28] Here's your problem. You have many problems. I almost guarantee you, you know what I mean? I mean, I don't know. I'm not saying I may, I mean, in terms of chicory and ice cream.
+
+[11:35] Like, but uh, I think what it is is uh milk is one of those things that's balancing, like, you know, balancing itself on the edge of curdling pretty much all the time. So if your milk is older and it's had bacteria growing in it for a while, it might be slightly more acidic, which is gonna make it more apt to curdle. So you could raise the uh pH a little bit with a pinch of and I wouldn't do this, but you could raise the pH a little bit with a pinch of baking soda, yeah, Ariel. That's gonna but not a lot, because if you take it, if you take it too high, it's also gonna be stable. Like pro like milk wants to be in a specific kind of range of pHs, which is where it kind of comes to you in the jug or out of the cow, right?
+
+[12:08] Uh now, uh assuming that wasn't your problem or partial when you're heating it, the milk's gonna be less stable. And also uh there's a lot of um like uh like phenolic compound, polyphenolic compounds in chicory that uh you know, much like uh tannins are gonna cause uh and it might actually be tannin, I don't know. Yeah, it could be uh that are gonna cause uh things to curdle. So the same way that if you make an extraordinarily strong uh infusion of like sumac or any other kind of bark and heat in milk, you can curdle it. So uh there the good news is that you might be able to do exactly what you're doing if you add the sugar first, because high sugar concentrations allow you to stabilize.
+
+[12:51] So, like for instance, if you make a fifty it if you do a 50-50 milk uh uh sugar thing, you can dump acid into it and it'll thicken, but it won't break. You know what I mean? Um because there's just so much sugar that I guess it's I don't know why. It's just like not allowing the proteins to get together and curdle uh as well. Yeah, or like like complexing them in some doing something.
+
+[13:13] I mean, sugar binds water, so proteins bind water and that's how they fold. Right. So if you're assuming that I like a typical ice cream base that I would use would have a liter of milkslash cream and would have 170 grams of sugar. So I don't know if that's enough to stabilize it for what you're doing, right? Uh so you could either do a cold infusion, uh, but you or definitely add after you add anything that's gonna stabilize, like egg yolks or um anything like that.
+
+[13:38] I would just do your infusion after the stuff has been uh stabilized. Or else just do like a hardcore tincture of chicory and then add it as an alcohol, but just not too much so you lower it lower the rate. But uh almost certainly you're dealing with uh you're dealing with a ta tannin or other similar kind of like phenolic y crap, right? Yeah, I would imagine so. I mean I was tannin's a phenolic thing, right?
+
+[13:58] Tannin is a phenolic thing. Yeah. Yeah, and those like bind to proteins. That's how that's how like astringency happens. And that's uh as Mirville would say, why?
+
+[14:08] That's uh that's uh why uh we put milk in our chicory coffee, because it's unpalatably like uh like a stringent and and bitter, right? It's astringent and bitter, and the astringency stuff is the stuff that's binding with the milk and getting wiped out, which is why we add milk to tea and super strong uh super strong um tea in milk, I can get that to curdle in the presence of liquor. So in other words, like things that will like alcohol destabilizes, acid destabilizes, um uh tannins destabilize milk, heat destabilizes milk, sugar protects kind of milk uh to a certain extent. I think egg yolks pretty much pr protect it to a certain extent, starches can protect anything that thickens the matrix so that the matrix. Anything that thickens it so that the proteins can't agglomerate together is gonna stabilize.
+
+[14:56] Yeah? Yeah, maybe I mean it made me think for a second, like uh there might be some sort of like plant proteases in chicory, so like you can make like a like a thistle or a nettle cheese. So then you get like uh protein curdling via like protein breakdown like a rennet. Is chicory related to cartoons or something? I don't think so.
+
+[15:20] I mean it might be, but I I have a feeling your your tannin theory might be more correct. Right, but it is true. There are there are plants that have enzymes that coidle things, and so maybe it's there. So hey, so so liquor boss and bitters boss, like uh what uh any any commercial amaros that uh are chicory based? Hmm.
+
+[15:42] Nothing that know of. Not nothing springs to mind. Since you guys well, since we know at least Don has had chicory coffee in the past five years, like what do you think it would take like do like what kind of amarrow kind of bass would you want to make with something like that? Would you wanna do like a bitter's bass with it? Is it not a c is it not an interesting enough bitter?
+
+[16:00] Uh it's it's not that interesting to be honest. Uh I do birch before I would do trickery. Yeah, birch isn't that bitter though. Yeah, but that's why you add other things to it. Yeah, but as a bittering agent, you wouldn't use it as a bittering agent, like if you're gonna do like a a southern amoro, let's say.
+
+[16:14] Like a New Orleans amoro. Yeah, maybe. Like a like a birch and cane syrup and R Right, but it's not nearly as bitter as like Quasia or something like that. Right. Yeah.
+
+[16:25] Yeah, but br uh chicory isn't that bitter either, so it's that's what I'm saying. Well the chicory's not as bitter, so like you wouldn't pick it as a straight up bitter in because you'd use something else that is like bitter. Right. But uh so if he's got the chicory syrup already, he can do like a cafe burlot if he wants to go kind of New Orleans style, then you're adding coffee, doing a little like you know, rum flame job. Flame job.
+
+[16:47] Yeah. Flame job. Yeah. Is our t is our uh tea water hot yet? Oh I can check.
+
+[16:52] Yeah, so ooh. Doesn't it doesn't it make a little like happy sound? It's one of those jobs. Is it Zojirushi? Yeah, I think so.
+
+[16:58] You know, uh uh my Zoji Rushi rice cooker at home, I have the induction, the 18 cup, the one before the pressure, but at the time I got it, which was over a decade ago, it was the highest end one. And uh Booker, uh, you know, he's on the spectrum, right? So Booker used to not be able to stand the noise of the the music that the Zoji Rushi, and so he wouldn't let me cook rice. And so I had to rip like one day I just ripped open the Zoji Rushi and like just cut the speaker wire. So now like I forget that Zoji Rushi uh equipment plays tunes for you when it's done.
+
+[17:29] I don't even remember what the tune sounds like. Do you remember you know what a Joshirushi done tune is? I I have both a rice cooker and a uh like the hot water thing, and they play a different tune, but I could not tell you what those tunes are. Oh, so you sh but you're s like you theor do you think subconsciously, you know, oh my tea is ready. Or like or oh my rice is ready by the tuna place.
+
+[17:48] Well, I never do uh both at the same time, so well uh well assuming you did, like it should it should just come out and say rice. And just let you choose the languages, right? Rice. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:59] Maybe. I never remember in uh I don't know how to say rice in in uh Japanese, and I never remember which one's rice in Chinese, the chow or the fan. Uh one's fried, one's rice. For the record I'm Korean, not Chinese. I well I know this.
+
+[18:17] But uh noodles are min, right? So uh chow is the is the uh the frying. So fan is the must be the rice, yeah. And so for completeness in Korean, what is it? Uh well it so in the Chinese character version it's poten.
+
+[18:32] Uh but it's usually you say pop as the kind of the the modern Korean way of saying it. And then in Japanese it would be uh Gohan, right? Is rice. Oh, okay, Gohan Society. Yeah.
+
+[18:42] Yeah, nice. All right. Well, it just goes to show how little I know about languages. Okay, uh is it ready? We are obtaining the correct vessels for brewing tea.
+
+[18:51] And what is the correct vessel for brewing tea? I would imagine a tea cup. Yeah. Are you are you guys gonna do like gong fu chai kind of stuff on this or what? No?
+
+[18:59] No. Should we play trippy music? Yeah. Uh when we're drinking it, we should play some trippy music underneath. I think so too.
+
+[19:05] Do you know how long this needs to steep for? Till it's done, yo. Uh okay, and uh Ellie also writes in P.S. Dave, the uh Lebanese halawa or halva, made from sesame paste and chock full of pistachios, kicks that Mexican uh fake halva, which is you know, remember the uh what's that stuff called again, uh Don? The Mexican, the uh I loved it.
+
+[19:27] I love it. No, it's called like the the wedding cookies? No, no, the the one that's basically like peanut paste. Yeah, yeah, it's got the like the little rose on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:34] I don't know. Other than being like the the peanut cookie. I don't know, it just went out of my head. It's this that stuff's delicious. But Ellie here is saying that like real hava kicks the crap out of that peanut stuff, or like the Brazilian version.
+
+[19:45] Anyway, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? Are you a halva? I like hava.
+
+[19:48] It's okay. I'm not a big hava fan. But we do like those peanut that the peanut thing? Occasionally it's so dry though. It's named after uh Marza Pan.
+
+[19:56] It's called Mazapan. Maza pan, that's what it's called. Because it's like marzipan, but it's like maza pan. So it's what's hilarious is it's like java, but named after marzipan, and it's like neither, which is yeah, whatever. Classic.
+
+[20:07] Okay. Um see we got uh any more questions in. Did I handle the one about cooking I had to handle the one about batching your food, right? The one who wanted a guy who wanted to cook lean foods or uh Chris. Yeah, I handled that.
+
+[20:21] Uh all right. I handled uh the fermentation. I can't believe it. I I actually I actually think I got through. Did I deal with I dealt with Peggy with uh from Australia, her questions, right?
+
+[20:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. Oh yeah. Thank you. Remember that whole conversation?
+
+[20:35] Yeah, but there's another Australian. No, no, no. There's a Pittsburgh again. Oh, well, that's for today. That's today.
+
+[20:41] I'm trying to actually get through last week's last week's uh stuff. Which I think is uh, you know, like good. I think I think I've done it. I think I've done it. All right.
+
+[20:50] So wait, what milk? We're not we're not putting milk in. I'm not putting milk nor am I putting sugar in. Brew this stuff up. Brew it up.
+
+[20:58] Well you don't have to. I think the barista is just being nice to you. I don't I don't like when people are nice to me. I don't appreciate it. I know you don't.
+
+[21:04] I hate it. All right. Now, today's questions. Uh from Luke. Hey all.
+
+[21:09] Uh can you pass this question on to Dave uh and the crew? Is it possible this is a good one, Don, for you. Oh yeah. Is it possible to make cocktails while you're camping? My question is about ice.
+
+[21:23] How would it be possible to transport and or make ice while camping for a week? Thanks for the great show, Luke. Go uh hiking on a glacier. That's the easiest way. Uh uh exactly, which Don has actually done.
+
+[21:34] Like Don went camping uh in an R V though, so it's R V camping. But still camping. Still camping. That's another way to do it, have an R V in Iceland. Yeah, just go uh, you know, if you go in the winter, you go winter camping, go a mountaineering up in rainy air.
+
+[21:47] It's a glacier, it's always there. Yeah, of course. Then they probably want the hot beverage. Right. Yeah.
+
+[21:52] Well, but that's not the question. That's not well, presumably that's not the question. Right. The other question is how much stuff can you pack in, right? So it you can bring ice and uh you can bring ice and then like bury it in a pit in the ground uh and like a you know 40 pound block of ice will last a long time buried in a pit in the ground in an in an insulated container.
+
+[22:16] But now you're packing 40 pounds of ice uh in uh with you. Another thing you can do is uh you could you could does anyone make uh like a spot chiller like with CO2 cartridges that no one does, but if you wanted to take a fire extinguisher with you, you could basically make dry ice and like a pillowcase on the fly, use that to chill water if you really wanted to. Right. So pre dilute the stuff and then sh shh bring a dry ice bag. Yep.
+
+[22:42] I'm surprised no one makes like a uh so a dry ice, a dry ice uh maker attached to a twenty uh ounce CO2 like air gun bottle should be able to make on the order of seven ounces of dry ice, which is enough to chill like a good bit of cocktail. Right, but you the you're now you're carrying all this stuff in. So the real baller move is, you know, like if you're gonna go uh kind of like long distance backcountry uh Appalachian Trail kind of thing, you have people like leave you supply drops. So you just have a bunch of Sherpas go out multiple days in advance carrying big blocks of ice, buried in advance at your campsites. And then when you get to the campsite, you just have to dig it up.
+
+[23:21] Yeah. That's the baller move. That is a baller move. Also, you know, I think if you stick with um if you stick with uh drinks that are meant to be uh enjoyed at warmer temperatures, like old fashioned or something like this, you're not gonna get it down to technically to old fashioned, but if you dig a hole that is uh by the way, when you're bringing liquor camping, you should always uh buy the uh they make little uh bottle sacks. They're like like uh they're like water bottles that are plastic that hold liquor and they're incredibly light.
+
+[23:52] And of course you should only drink boxed wines when you're camping because it's incredibly light to bring boxed wines with you. And Jordan Anna's making cocktails on her burning man. Yeah, but she's going with an RV, that's easy to do. And you can buy ice every day there. She said you can she didn't want to.
+
+[24:07] She wanted to whatever, I don't want to get she there right now? No. No, it's uh two weeks. It's uh what was it, the last weekend of August, first weekend of September, something like that. Yeah.
+
+[24:16] Anyway, the other thing you can do is if you are going to be by a moving body of water, like a river or lake uh that you know has some kind of flow, a deep enough lake, if you are boating in any way, you can just get a mesh sack, you can put all the everything you want into watertight bottles, like like an Algene, drop it in, and then just hang that off the back of your boat. The water temperature will be pretty cold, so you get fairly cold drinks. So even if you have sodas or beers, it's a common way of chilling it if you're on the lake or like on a on a river. That's the same. Yeah, and the lower you go, the cooler it'll go.
+
+[24:43] And if you and I was gonna say if you're not, if you dig down to about three or four feet underground, uh even if you don't hit water, you're probably gonna get down to temperatures close to like uh in the fifties somewhere. And you want a real old school baller baller, sweet sweet baller trick. If you um if you put your uh bottle in a uh in a jug, clay jugs are the best, but you put it into a jug and then you put towels that lean out over it, you'll get wicking and evaporation, and you can basically turn your your bottle into an evap cooler. So if you wrap your bottle in uh in something that has a water reservoir so it stays moist, but it wicks up and air moves across it, you keep it in the shade, it will it will uh evaporate off, and you could probably get a good and if go on any of the old see back the the golden age of the camping book was roughly roughly eighteen eighty to roughly nineteen forty, right? That's the kind of the golden age of the camping book.
+
+[25:41] So you can look up uh there's uh a guy named Mason who wrote a famous one uh called Woodcraft. There's a bunch of famous guy named Sears who's who's uh went by the you know the pseudo-Indian name of Nesmuck wrote one. And all of these folks have these uh old um tricks on how to keep things cool. Now they're not gonna make ice, but they try to keep things uh as cool as possible. They're specifically worried about like stuff going bad that's refrigerated, like for instance, the animal you just shot in the face.
+
+[26:06] Uh but uh they all have uh strategies uh for for things like that. Another good way is to go camping in the high desert. It gets pretty cold at night. You get some serious evaporative cooling there. You could probably get a good temperature delta, like 20 degrees or something like that.
+
+[26:20] So, Dave, I'm back country camping by Lake Superior next week. So I'll try out some of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, you should get a hold of that book, one of those books, Woodcraft. I think Mason does it.
+
+[26:29] There's another one, a famous guy, I can't remember his name, but they're all published between, like I say, like the late 1800s and the and the 1940s. So they all at they they they are prior to the leave no trace model of camping. And so like the first thing they do is fell a number of large trees. And then and then like, you know, like you know, have the person who brought your you know, you know, camp equipment in with you. Like some of them tell you how to trek a loan, but also some of them tell you how to do like the old gentleman's camp where you do have people that you hire to carry all your crap in.
+
+[26:59] Right. Nice. Like all your cartridges and guns and it's like burn a 30-foot circle for your campsite and salt the earth when you leave. Oh, you would not you would not believe uh Ariel, you would not believe like the would they're like if you need to make a uh uh a fire to cook on, like literally they fell two giant trees and make a V so that you have like like a larger fire fire as it goes down to a V, and then they fill the entire interior of this like 15, 16 foot long V with logs, light the whole sucker up down to coals, fell another tree to make like cross braces for like spits. I mean, it's just they're freaking bananas.
+
+[27:35] These folks are bananas, and they have people carrying like large cast iron. Remember, like things like Dutch ovens used to be camp camp equipment. Yeah, yeah. Would you carry one of those things into the woods? No, you would not.
+
+[27:47] No, you would not. Car camping. Car car camping or hired people camping. You know what I mean? That's glamping.
+
+[27:55] Yeah, but it used to just be like the way you did it. But then there was like the nutbags, like the Mures and whatnot, who would just like you know, go out there. This guy, Nesmuck, I told you about, he was one of the uh original like uh canoe portage guys all around the Adirondacks up in upstate uh New York, and he had someone build him like a uh traditional Native American bark canoe. He was a small guy, he was a very small guy, so he could get away with a short kind of a canoe, a small canoe. His canoe, I think weighed uh like under 15 pounds.
+
+[28:21] And so he just you know would just like you know go out with that and like his backpack and uh you know and chill. People, yeah, you can't really do that anymore. It doesn't really, I don't know. This stuff looks weird, man. This stuff's got emulsified colour.
+
+[28:32] So like the the tea bags have this sort of like greasy greenish color to them. And then as soon as you put the tea bag in the in the water, it becomes kind of cloudy. Does it is there any actual tea in it? It does have a bitter back to it. It has real tea in it.
+
+[28:47] Yeah, it tastes kinda like I was gonna say it tastes somewhat like tea. It tastes like tea. It's been it's been brewing for like four and a half minutes now. You've been brewing for four and a half minutes now. Not Don's.
+
+[28:56] Wait, are you drinking it? Yeah. Are you drinking? He's gonna do the news. There's two new.
+
+[29:01] Oh, do you want one, Jackson? No, no, no. I mean, I yes, I yes, I do, but I I should not. I'm w I'm working. Yeah.
+
+[29:08] Like we're not. We're not working. All right, I'm I'm sipping this uh this c oh. Oh dude. Dude.
+
+[29:31] How much of this do I have to drink to get anything? Well, you have the packet. You have like the I think the promotional. I don't think it could be. Well, as long as there's no psycho.
+
+[29:43] Well, there's gotta be psychoactive. Why why am I doing it if there's a why? Why? The aerial stuff. Hey.
+
+[29:54] It's like, you know, it's like it's like uh it's like O'Doules. All of the beerness, but none of the beerness. No, like in other words, this stuff what's it called? In my head, it's it's I'm saying uh uh CJD, which is Jakob's Kreigfeld disease, which is not what we want to see. See exactly C B D.
+
+[30:12] This has supposed to have some sort of benefit for me, right? I'm supposed to vibe my POV is supposed to get vibed up. It's it's like it's uh it's like homeopathy, though. It's you know, it's gonna make everything better. There's no science behind that.
+
+[30:23] Is it I don't know, is there well I don't know, like the I I don't know. Like someone's gotta call in, someone's gotta read. What do you think though? What do you think? Do you like the flavor of it?
+
+[30:30] It's not very good tea. First criticism. Second of all, I mean it definitely tastes like the like the cannabis oil. Uh I don't like that flavor. It's not Jack, you don't like that flavor?
+
+[30:41] No. By the way, I've learned a lot about Jack. And when he when we're gonna drink that, this is uh like that's the music that he puts on. Like I was thinking more like you see, I'm I'm not a user, right? I was thinking more like I was thinking more like Pink Floyd metal.
+
+[30:56] One of these days I'm going what's it chop you into little pieces? You know that song? Any of you guys listen to that old style Pink Floyd stuff? Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, it's good stuff.
+
+[31:06] I had to go with the royalty free, also, you know. Yeah, that is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you think Pink Floyd's gonna like really get on our case for telling people that we're gonna some one of these days we're gonna chop them into little pieces?
+
+[31:15] I mean, Roger Waters, yeah. I could see it happening. Wow, wow, calling him out. Yep. All right, let's take a commercial break and we'll come back, see whether or not we're uh psychoactively affected on the cooking issues.
+
+[31:34] Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway Butcher Counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do.
+
+[31:54] Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's Heritage Turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact.
+
+[32:35] Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at oh, we're not. And we're back. And we're back.
+
+[32:51] Oh, by the way, I like how you cut him off right when he was gonna say to visit our website. He got high. He had high. I got high. I got hi.
+
+[32:58] Uh HeritageFoods USA.com. Speaking of That was the website. Yeah. Speaking of website, uh, like pretty soon you guys are gonna be able to. What's it called?
+
+[33:07] Live? What are you gonna live? They're gonna be able to live do? So many things. There's a forum there.
+
+[33:11] The new website's really awesome. Yeah, the live stream, you can there'll be a chat. So you can like actually chat us live. I'll I'll have it all pulled up here. So you know you can harass us, ask us questions, make comments, and then uh I can pass those on to Dave.
+
+[33:25] Right. So the way it'll work is is like let's say I'm not saying you're doing this, but let's say you're at your place of uh work and you have the headphones on, which by the way, when I was a kid you couldn't do that crap. You couldn't put headphones on when you're at work. You know. Anyway, let's say you have your headphones on and you're children's workplace.
+
+[33:40] Yeah, yeah, your cubicle. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, you have them on and you're listening to us, but you can't call in, but you want to say so you what you do is you'll stream crap in, Jack will see it, and you'll be like, hey Jack, tell those idiots that they're wrong, they're morons. And he'll say, uh, you know, blah blah at Hoosie Mutz at McBla says that you are, you know, idiots, right? And then you That's what will happen, yeah.
+
+[34:00] That's exactly how it's gonna work. And uh there's all there's other benefits, this new website that you guys uh helped pay for. Is this true or false? True. One hundred percent true.
+
+[34:08] Yeah. Um I have a caller. Oh, all right. Caller, you are on the air. Hi, this is Jeff.
+
+[34:14] Um hi Dave. Hi, Don. Hey Jess, how's it going? Hi, good. Um my question is kind of for both of you.
+
+[34:21] Um, I I know you and I got in a very intense conversation in New Orleans um in regards to categories of food. And I just wanted to know kind of Dave's perspective. Um we got in a pretty intense argument about um if a quesadilla it falls under the category of a sandwich. And I just wanted to know what they think. Okay, listen.
+
+[34:48] Listen, listen. Uh okay, okay, okay. I gotta calm down here. Let's let's just let's look at this in a from a number of different perspectives, okay? Define sandwich, Don.
+
+[35:03] I believe a sandwich involves two things of starch. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Rice? Something in between. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[35:10] Squish rice? Alright, alright, alright. Arranged horizontally. I think you can make things with rice crackers. Oh, no, no, no, no.
+
+[35:20] That is a no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. You could make a you could make uh what is it? Uh uh. Rich crackers with peanut butter.
+
+[35:28] Is that a freaking sandwich? Is matzah with peanut butter in between a sandwich. You know what an Oreo is? A sandwich cookie. Not a sandwich.
+
+[35:38] So sandwich is an adjective as well as a noun. Sandwich is a category of the of the way you stack. First of all. It could be a bad sandwich. No, no, no.
+
+[35:47] First of all. Sandwich you don't want. Sandwich is sandwich is made here here's a sandwich is with bread. B red. B red.
+
+[35:57] What's it once again I go uh I go to the matzah example then. It is the the the bread of suffering. It is the you know. Are you gonna deny the Jews their bread when they're running away from the Egyptians? Two pieces of pizza flipped on themselves.
+
+[36:09] Are they a freaking sandwich? Only if there's something in between, but it's not pizza. Is it calzone a sandwich? No, because it's round. It's calzar.
+
+[36:15] It's like it's like a burrito. What? Burrito, definitely not a freaking sandwich. Clearly, much like a wrap. Oh, have a calzone.
+
+[36:21] Oh yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Quesadilla not then, because it's it's folded. Okay, here's the question then. What about a freaking if if you if you were down to the last slice of bread and you wanted to make a sad grilled cheese and you folded that last piece of bread in half with cheese and you've made it on a griddle, is that still a grilled cheese? If you believed in God, you would cut the bread in half rather than fold it.
+
+[36:42] Or even if you were an atheist with like uh iota of self-respect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like my i but I don't know that this folded thing, for instance, a lobster roll is a sandwich.
+
+[36:55] And it's made on a split bun. Definitely not. It's a freaking sandwich. It's a hot dog a sandwich then? Obviously not.
+
+[37:01] I mean, in other words, it is a sandwich, but it gets its own category. Right? It gets its own category. The only thing that gets its own category is a hamburger. Hamburger gets its own freaking category.
+
+[37:11] What's a paddy milk? What's a patty milk? It's a kind of hamburger. My question is, is it now a matter of horizontal versus vertical? And how you actually consume it.
+
+[37:22] How would you construct a vertical quesadilla? No, that's that the hot dog is a vertical. Or or long, then it is why. The split in the bread is vertical, is what you're saying. Exactly.
+
+[37:32] Okay. So whereas a Italian sausage is a little bit more than a little bit of a big thing. So when you buy a crappy. When you buy a crappy hot dog freaking bun, and you open it too much to toast it because you're one of those people that toast their freaking hot dog buns, right? And it breaks into two and you hand them that crippled hot dog that falls through the thing.
+
+[37:50] Is it now a freaking sandwich? No. No, because if it's fallen through, it's still vertically stacked. It's not horizontally stacked. But then if you have to like rotate it 90 degrees.
+
+[38:01] Now it's a sandwich? Now you now you have a failure of a hot dog. So the Oxford Dictionary, what do we think? An item of food consisting of two pieces of bread. Two pieces.
+
+[38:14] With meat, cheese, or other filling in between them. Eaten as a light meal. What the hell? So would you say that it's shows what they know? Oxford, by the way.
+
+[38:22] Oxford English Dictionary, world renowned for being crappy when it comes to definitions of food or etymologies related to food or historical timelines related to food. World renowned for being the worst. Where did he go? Where'd she go? To life.
+
+[38:36] To life. The company subway, right? Do they manufacture sandwiches? A sub is a subcategory of sandwich, yes. Even though they're not split all the way in two anymore?
+
+[38:49] Look, in the old days, they would take the knife and then go shippy shippy shippy shippy shippy and rip the V out, and then the V would be a pseudo top to it. Now they just slice it in half because they're too inept to use the V slice anymore. And that's why if you get a subway now versus a subway 15, 20 years ago, it used to be you could eat them without it spraying all over the inside of everything, and now everything sprays everywhere because it's just how you eat a subway sandwich that's spraying everywhere. Because I get lots of toppings. I enjoy mayonnaise and mustard.
+
+[39:16] And so like the stuff like they they put it at the end and it freaking extrudes out of the side of the most important thing in sandwich is not the definition, it's the construction, the layering that goes into a proper sandwich. That's true. It's true. The worst thing you can do somebody is to silo their uh burrito. Have you ever done this as a joke?
+
+[39:32] No, what is it? When you give them when you make a burrito for somebody, you make them in silos of all the different ingredients the the wrong way. No, but that shows why a burrito is a piece of crap. Because it's got just too much freaking like I want my rice and beans separately. I want a small object, like that I can consume.
+
+[39:49] Burrito's e burrito, first of all, uh like a burrito is an inferior chimichanga. Right? And an inferior inch it's like an inferior it's an inferior product, no? It's an inferior product, I agree. Yeah.
+
+[40:01] What do you think, Ariel? Inferior to what? Well, like, for instance, like it would be better just if you deep fried it and turn it to a chibichanga. That's true. I would always rather have like two or three tacos than a burrito.
+
+[40:11] Oh, a hundred percent of the case. Yeah, I'd rather have taquitos than a burrito. I would rather have enchiladas, even though it's totally different than a burrito. And I would rat I would rather have a quesadilla, frankly, than a burrito. But is it a sandwich?
+
+[40:22] Quesadilla? Here's another thing. Like, is a s is an open face sandwich, even though it's called open faced sandwich, a sandwich. Not according to the Oxford English idiots. I would say yes, because the normal form is closed, and you have to denote that it has been opened.
+
+[40:35] But it doesn't serve they don't start it with an extraordinary. But don't a sandwich you have to eat with your hands. Oh. Here's an interesting question. Bill de Blasio would say you can eat anything with a knife and fork, including pizza.
+
+[40:47] In i i in Denmark, where I usually live, we have like open face sandwiches. Which are impossible to eat with your hands. You like literally cannot. Smorgus is always open. Oh, yeah.
+
+[41:00] Smore bread is always, always open. It is the net the normal form of a smorgas is already open. Yeah. So you didn't take a sandwich and open it to make a smorgas. It always.
+
+[41:08] But then if you ask a Danish person what a s'morabrod is, they're oh, open face sandwiches. But why would you ask a Danish person that? They're just being polite. They're trying to translate it because they all speak English and they're not worried about the like the nicety, the fine points of the language, right? You mean, right?
+
+[41:22] We got a tweet in. This is why this is what's this tweet about sandwiches? It's our buddy Elliot. He says sandwich argument, the same as pretzel argument. A sandwich is one thing, everything else subcategory.
+
+[41:33] Well, but the pretzel argument to me is there's no such like a pretzel rod is not a freaking pretzel. It's a pretzeloid. So sandwichoids, maybe. Okay, here's a case of pretzel? Pretz, it's like is Pluto a planet?
+
+[41:49] Nah, it's planetoid. I mean, it's in the same realm, although I don't I don't really think of anything with unleavened bread, sorry, matza-based sandwiches, as like like the actual hardcore category to me. It has to be leavened. So anything that with a tortilla base or like a roti is not a sandwich. Uh like anything that's got an unleavened bread base to me is not really technically how I think of uh uh as a sandwich.
+
+[42:14] To me, it has to be kind of a leavened bread base. Um I think it can be opened or closed as long as you uh designate it. I think it's like anything else. It's like pornography. I know it when I see it.
+
+[42:23] You know what I mean? It's like it yeah, a sandwich is you can just tell what it is, but a pretzel is super freaking clear. A pretzel, okay. Uh a pretzel is a uh a wheat dough that contains no oil. You hear that?
+
+[42:38] Bachman's. Uh pretzel contains no oil, right? Uh it's usually made with a sourdough kind of a leavening technique. It is rolled into a uh into a tube shape, twisted into a pretzel shape, right? It is a pretzel shape, right?
+
+[42:55] Uh it is then uh cooked in an alkali solution, briefly, to get and if it's not cooked that way, then it is a pretzel-shaped piece of bread, right? And then you can either cook it hard or soft, and you can have it with salt because you like things that are good, or without salt because you're a bad person. Or sometimes sugar. Some idiots dip it in butter, but I don't like that. Do you like that style?
+
+[43:17] This soft pretzel dipped in butter. It's not my favorite. Hey, here's one. I mean, I like butter, but like bagel's clearly a bit here's the interesting one. Is a bagel a sandwich?
+
+[43:30] When you cut it open? A bad sandwich. I don't believe in eating bagel top and bottom together. We've had this discussion. You shouldn't.
+
+[43:36] So it's a you could make a bad sandwich. Yeah, I've heard people like say that I'm bad because they like to eat their bagel top and bottom of the sandwich. Yeah, because those people are just wrong. We all know that. Well, I think the reason is is because they're eating a bagel that has no backbone, no structure.
+
+[43:50] So there's like if you have a bagel. Yeah, like a bagel should be eaten with like open food. Whatever you have on it should be open. Yeah, it should always be open. Always.
+
+[44:01] An egg sandwich on a bagel? You're opening that up? No, that's wrong. You should never put an egg sandwich in a big bagel. Egg sandwicher roll.
+
+[44:07] Come on. Jack, how long have you been in New York? Egg sandwich goes on Kaiser roll. 100% of the time. What?
+
+[44:18] Yeah. You're you one out of every five times. I get an egg sandwich. First of all, first of all, in my mind, I have that nasty, sallow, like uneven bagel in my head that you get at the joint that's making the egg sandwich. That thing's just an abomination anyway.
+
+[44:33] That was made like eight years ago, that bagel. Yeah. What do you think about the croissant sandwich? I mean croissant sandwich. Slicing a croissant open and putting something inside is a long tradition.
+
+[44:46] Is it a sandwich? No, it's a pastry. Ooh. Hmm. Hmm.
+
+[44:52] Different thing. Anyway, like I was saying, like there there are things like uh for or against. I would like if I said, if I said let's have sandwiches and someone handed me a hot dog, I'd get angry. If someone said, let's have sandwiches and they handed me a quesadilla, I would, I would, I would tell them to go to hell. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[45:08] I mean, that's just like honestly what would happen. If someone handed me something that's like closer to a sandwich, frankly, if someone if I said I want a sandwich and they handed me an open face sandwich, gravy poured all over it, like a piece of toast, some freaking like shredded dry as hell turkey and gravy on the top, I'd be like, I asked for a freaking sandwich. You know what I mean? Like, and you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[45:27] Yeah. Here's my question. I think we've done this before. BLT season coming up, people. And by the way, by the way, I had some of Nastasia's tomatoes on my first BLT of the season.
+
+[45:35] They were delicious. Thank you, Nastas. Yeah. Uh BLT sandwich. Do not let people make their own BLT sandwiches.
+
+[45:44] Because they will not put mayonnaise on both the top and the bottom piece of toast. Do not overtoast your BLT so that your mouth becomes excoriated from the BLT as you chew on it. That's true. Do not make a BLT from a bread with too much structure. This will ruin the effect of a BLT sandwich.
+
+[46:04] Do not make a BLT with some wimpy kind of like fancy Dan lettuce that doesn't have good crunch. My preferred BLT lettuce is iceberg. Crap on all of you. Anyone anyone gonna come out against me on this? What do you use?
+
+[46:19] No, I think that's correct. All right. A good tomato. Right? And like three strips of good bacon, salt, pepper, that's it.
+
+[46:27] You should also salt the tomato separately, and you should pepper the mayonnaise on each side of the bread. Amen. That is how you make a freaking BLT sandwich. What about a refrigerated tomato? Oh my god, you gotta get Daniel Chris.
+
+[46:42] Alright, listen. Listen. Listen. Get out! Uh we have uh we listen, Nastasia told me uh we're gonna get kicked off the air soon.
+
+[46:50] Hey, what are your thoughts on this cannabinoid tea? By the way. Canab what is it? Canab a dial up? Cannab a dial.
+
+[46:54] Cannabadiol sounds like cannab a canab a uh you like it or not? Um you're feeling anything. I'm not I'm not feeling anything. Um I'm thumped down. It's uh it doesn't make the tea taste any better.
+
+[47:04] Like adding bergamot to tea makes delicious earl gray. Adding cannabin whatever oil to uh to the tea makes it taste like muddy something. But it's a functional thing. It's a functional thing. I'm feeling a function from this tea.
+
+[47:16] Yeah, but you you're not supposed to. Anyway, listen. Nastasi tells me that we're gonna be on hiatus for a month because we're going on hiatus for a month while they sit, and when we come back from the hiatus, the new website will be up and running and you can live tweet us now. So let me try to rip through a couple questions like in the st like in instantaneous fashion. Zach from Pittsburgh writes in, how are you doing?
+
+[47:33] Pittsburgh is the place to go if you like races, huh? It comes from an earlier thing because someone said that to me. I doubt it is much different than any other city. There are good people here and bad. Our food scene is getting a lot better.
+
+[47:42] It is pretty nice. Check it out sometime. I'd like to. Food questions. Why can't restaurants handle fresh-cut French fries?
+
+[47:47] So many places like to talk up their fries, but then you get them and they look great, but in reality, they're undercooked, floppy, waxy, and bad. A good French fry shouldn't be so hard to pull off, especially when it's probably your most served food item. To me, it is a sign they just don't care about quality. Well, that's right. Uh it actually is more difficult than most people are willing to take on to make a good French fry.
+
+[48:05] It's not diff, it's not difficult in the sense that you don't need to have a PhD to do it, and you don't need to be uh, you know, a rocket scientist, but you do need to do more steps than most people want to do to make a good French fry, even if you don't use the enzymes or any of my other stuff, requires at least two uh at least uh one boil step, at least a dry step, and a single fry, and then probably a free step and then a fry. So if you're not willing to do all that crap, like with a soak beforehand, you know, you're some sort of soak, whether or not you use the enzyme or not. So like you're talking about a several hour prep and it do it. So most people are like, I'm gonna make a high quality French fry. See, here's the thing.
+
+[48:40] Here's the thing. Orida, right, or whoever you're buying your French fries from when you're buying Cisco, whatever it is, like, yeah, yeah, most of the stuff they make is direct compared to what could be made at home, but they have a lot of research time and decades of French fry under their belts, right? And also frying French fries from frozen turns out to be a good way to get good uh crust texture. So I often, depending, especially if I can't do my enzyme treatment, I will freeze my fries because for a quality reason, right? So you're going up against, it's like trying to make ketchup.
+
+[49:11] Like Heinz does a good job. You know what I mean? So you in order to do a better job, you have to actually put in more work than you think. And most people who make their own French fries simply don't know how to do it or they don't care. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:23] Okay, we have one more I want to uh uh get in before we go. Uh let's see one more hold second uh okay you ready for this this is a complicated one uh we have uh call by the way the best uh Twitter uh thing a Jews boosh a ju Instagram a j Instagram a Jews boosh he's or uh I guess he's orthodox David Statman he's orthodox so anyway he wants to use the Sears all on a Sabbath right so uh here's the thing he's like you're allowed to transfer a flame but you're not allowed to make a flame so the Burnsomatic TS8000 that we use you press the button click click click click right and it causes the frame and it's a flame and so he's saying the button's the problem right and then but transferring the flames okay so he wants to get a different torch and uh and pass uh basically just turn the gas on and pass the the flame to the Sears all that way. My feeling is uh David now I'm no rabbi but my feeling is just saying no rabber are you sure? Pretty sure but my feeling is that uh you are not allowed to turn the valve on. Can anyone do that Jack like while we're while we're signing out can you do a quick uh search on whether or not you're allowed to open and close valves on the Sabbath?
+
+[50:37] Yes. Yeah. I don't believe you're allowed to open and close valves on the Sabbath. It sounds dubious. Yes I don't because I would believe that that's the functional equivalent of a circuit, and you can't turn circuits off and on.
+
+[50:48] Anyways, so my feeling is you're gonna be shafted uh on on the valve. Now, what you could do, what we could do is you could hook um no don't do this, it's incredibly unsafe. Please don't do this. But you can hook up a timer to turn on a torch at a specific time, uh, including the piezo ignition, and as long as you set it up, right, at the right time, you can do another option is that you could find you need to go read Alan Dundas's book, uh, The Sabbath Elevator. Okay, there's a whole book on the Sabbath elevator by a guy named Alan Dundas, who, interestingly, found uh interestingly found out only about things like the Sabbath elevator uh late in his life.
+
+[51:23] He's a folklore expert, even though he's actually uh he's he's Jewish, but he just didn't know much about it, I guess. I don't know why he's not not doing the research. And uh he uh did a bunch of uh stuff on when it is okay to use uh you know the uh the uh Sabbath goy, right? Yeah. So for instance, in the elevator, like technically, you know, I can push the button for you because I'm a goy, although you gotta make sure that I'm not Jewish, because if I'm Jewish but not practicing, like that's not cool.
+
+[51:48] But you're not technically supposed to be like, hey dude, can you press that button? They just have to know to do it, right? So you have to pre-hire the goy to show up. Invite a goy to dinner on Sabbath. This is my plan.
+
+[51:59] Invite a goy to dinner on Sabbath and tell them, like, you know, when you get here, uh when you get here, it might be nice, like when I lift my hand in the air, if you were to take my TS8000, ignite it, and depress the button that keeps it on. And then they could do that, and then you could sear with it, and then you'd be like, and then they would know that when you put it down, you'd be like, and when I put the thing down, it might be nice if it didn't stay on and burn my house down. You know what I mean? Yeah, Sears Alkoi. Sears all goy.
+
+[52:28] No valves. No valves. See? You're gonna have to go with the Sears all goy. Yeah.
+
+[52:33] Sears all goy. We'll come back in one month, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts on the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[52:57] You can email us with questions anytime at info at Heritage Radio Network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C three nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. Hi, this is Celia Cutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello, and we're back.
+
+[0:34] It's Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues coming to you live for the first time in a long time here on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick. What is it? Bushwick. Where are you gonna stay? You're not gonna do it for me?
+
+[0:44] Oh, what? Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Joined not as usual, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, is caught on a train back from the home. No, I'm in a no, I didn't take the train. You told me to find a good place.
+
+[0:59] So I'm in a crappy hotel room. What's up, crappy hotel room? Are they about to kick you out? Are you are you staying past your checkout time? I did the late checkout.
+
+[1:09] Oh, what's up, late checkout? Stas are leaving the hotel door open. The whole the room to room. Door to your room. Oh, hello, Peter.
+
+[1:15] Oh, uh, yeah. So everyone who, you know, we've been gone for like a month. What they really want to hear is a bunch of inside jokes I don't understand. Oh, they don't. Uh, yeah, so joined uh via phone from Harvard uh uh at uh Boston, Cambridge, actually, because uh Harvard and Boston never the two shall touch.
+
+[1:31] Uh how you doing, Staz? Good. I'm actually at Leslie, the school next to Harvard. Well, what do you mean? Like Leslie didn't invite so Mark Ladner was doing the uh like the public lecture and the uh and the uh what's it called, the uh student lecture for the for the uh you know the Harvard Science Cooking uh class there.
+
+[1:52] Uh uh Stas and I were there last week doing it uh with uh Harold McGee. But um why are you not stay why is Harvard not putting up where you what are you doing with Leslie? No, I'm joking. I'm at Arbor. Okay.
+
+[2:05] All right. Uh and uh how was the uh lecture uh it was good. It was good. He got he got through all his demos. So by the way, another inside joke.
+
+[2:16] This is like Nastasia, you gotta understand. So Nastasia likes to joke that uh that I never make it through the demos that I intend to do, and that's just because I uh plan more demos than I have time for in case I get to them, and then I just keep moving until I get through what I get through. That's my MO. Uh I've done it forever, and we'll continue to do it until I stop sucking air into my body and breathing it back out again. Uh one last demo.
+
+[2:38] Yeah, now yeah. Uh so but Stas, you know, like uh it inside jokes. You guys gotta quit with the inside jokes. These people are listening on the internet. I just said I'm so glad he made it through the demos.
+
+[2:52] No, no, no, you're a liar. Uh anyone who know anyone who knows you knows you're a liar. Uh it was a dig. It was a dig. Dig.
+
+[2:58] Anyway, what was the subject of the demos? Uh heat. Heat. What a little bit. Pretty easy.
+
+[3:05] Heat heat anything like that. Related to what yeah. He used uh the Sears all to di that did a full steak in ten minutes by th turning it every thirty seconds. Uh there was a putanesca pasta making demo and something else. Did you do that just so we could say Puto in front of the students?
+
+[3:22] Yeah, he had to explain what it where it came from. Yeah, it's it's pasta like a hooa might make and eat. Yes. Yeah. Pasta in the variety of a hooah.
+
+[3:33] I think that's uh it's really literally what it is, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's the one time I get to use that accent legit. Legit.
+
+[3:40] Uh Jack, how you doing? Oh, I'm good. Yeah, why don't you tell us what's been up with the Heritage Radio Network during the hiatus? Just hard at work making a new website here. And no, but you gotta tell them about the tweeting in.
+
+[3:51] They can tweet in live now in case they have so many things. So next week it's gonna launch and we'll we'll announce all the cool features, but there'll be a little chat room in the live player. Um the website itself is completely overhauled and just uh a it's a pleasant experience, this new website. But uh if you're in Brooklyn or New York, we're having a big big party next Monday, uh the 21st from 5 to 10 PM at Roberta's to celebrate the new website launch. It's free, free ninety nine to get the.
+
+[4:18] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Free? What do I get for free? Uh you get to come in to the party. What's in the party?
+
+[4:23] It's the back garden of Roberta's. So there's DJs. Okay. Drinks are $20 a pop. Drinks are $37 per beer.
+
+[4:31] Wow. That's how we make up the difference. They're not $37. No. We're actually asking a suggested donation, which is ten bucks, and that'll get you a uh a six-point beer and a shot of tequila.
+
+[4:44] Nice. Wow. Yeah. And I'm old enough to actually pay the suggested admission as opposed to being that guy who's like, I suggest nothing. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[4:52] You know what I mean? You don't want to be that dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I you know what? I'm almost like I had to be re I never actually had the cojones to go and do that like at the at the Met.
+
+[5:02] So I would always just walk outside for a half an hour looking down at the ground to find someone who had dropped their button on the way out to go in. So I wouldn't have to be like I don't pay nothing. You know what I mean? You know, because then I don't the look. You ever the look.
+
+[5:16] Oh, they give you the look, yeah. You've seen the look. Oh, yeah. As a museum uh person myself, which we'll get to in a minute. You know, I know the look.
+
+[5:22] I'm familiar with it. Um it's not a good look. Not a good look. So next week, I guess not this week, next week. Here's what you can do.
+
+[5:29] Let's say you're one of these people who's listening to the the broadcast here, and you happen to be listening. Well, it's live, but you can't call in. I don't know. Maybe you're at work, maybe you're goofing off, you can't call, whatever. Elliot.
+
+[5:40] Uh not calling you out. But uh, you know, you can tweet your stuff in and we can respond to it live on the air, right? Right, Jack? And Jack will be monitoring it. Yep.
+
+[5:49] Right? Uh or some combination of uh uh Jack uh Stasia. That's like the combination of you two, so I'm gonna have to mash that up to Jack Stasia. We'll look and then we can uh interact without you having to necessarily call in. Although, please still call in if you can.
+
+[6:02] Yes. Uh and keep it to one question per call. Wow, yeah. See, yeah. Jack's the hammer.
+
+[6:06] We really should just mash you two together. You'd be like superhero if there was like a combination like Jack Stasia. What do you think? Yeah. It's the Jackhammer.
+
+[6:15] Yeah. Oh my god. Oh, it's so strong. Oh my goodness, they're so strong. So strong.
+
+[6:25] Uh all right. Well, to uh, you know, I have so much I like the thing is is like uh I'll tell you what, we'll answer some questions and then we'll go back to like because we we've done so much in the month uh that you guys have been gone. But the thing to discuss first is I have with me uh oh by the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Here for the next, I don't know, half hour or so.
+
+[6:48] Uh got with me Peter Kim. Peter Kim, everyone. You got the fake clap laugh uh clap track. Oh Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. What are you now, the executive director?
+
+[7:01] Yeah, something like that. What it was the title changes every week. Yeah, what is it? Who's the Galactic Emperor before? Oh, I like that.
+
+[7:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, we don't yet have a fully operational battle station. Fully operational battle station. Uh so we can't you can't be the strike me that.
+
+[7:16] I wish we had that much money, but why don't you tell them what's going on? Exciting uh exciting news in the world of the Museum of Food and Drink. Well, we are about to have a fully operational museum gallery. Uh this is something obviously we've been really looking forward to doing since we started working on MoFed, uh really in earnest, I guess. Uh well you started really four years ago.
+
+[7:37] Uh getting a space finally um to be able to put on our first uh brick and mortar exhibition. And so yeah, I mean uh you guys might have seen the news in the New York Times last week, but uh we're opening October twenty-eighth. We've got a five thousand square foot converted warehouse in Williamsburg and uh doing an exhibition on the flavor industry, which is you know a pretty crazy a pretty crazy story to tell. It's something where, you know, I've been surprised actually getting to know it. Uh, you know, these these flavorists, they really uh pretty much every time you're eating uh there's there's something that they've done to to tweak your food, and it's a 25 billion dollar industry, but nobody really ever stops to think about that.
+
+[8:15] And so think about like the thing I like to think about is like is 25 billion dollars is a drop in the bucket if you think I mean think about what percentage of like what percentage of the foods that we eat have some sort of what we call like flavoring system. You know what I mean? Hey Stas, can you crumple more paper next to the phone, please? Like uh what what things have a I was joking, uh have like a flavor system in them, right? It could be our patient caller who's waiting to ask.
+
+[8:38] Oh, really? Uh all right. We'll talk about the flavor industry in a second. Caller, you are on the air. All right, Dave, congrats on the museum.
+
+[8:44] That sounds great. Oh, thanks. Uh I have a question. I know that um I think I've heard you say that you used to be pretty into homebrewing. Oh, yeah.
+
+[8:52] Well, a while ago, a long while ago, before so Dax, my youngest son, is ten now, and I stopped the minute he was born because uh, you know, like the mess was just so intense that um, you know, I was getting in it would not have been good. Yeah, so I mean I'm just kind of throwing out myself, so I was just wondering like what kind of stuff you were into and uh if you have any kind of you know, New York City apartment type tips or anything. Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you this.
+
+[9:18] What methods do you have like what's your stove like? Um crappy four burner. Okay. Like the like the wimp like standard wimpy New York City, like been there for like forty years gas burner? Like sixty-seven years, but yeah.
+
+[9:35] No, well you might get lucky. If you get old enough you might get lucky, but probably not. Okay. So your first issue is gonna be it's gonna take a while to get the the the you know the the wort down to where you want it to be. So I would I mean, what I did was I I limited myself to five gallon uh kind of uh batches, right?
+
+[9:55] Uh I I did all grain because I mean, please. I did all grain. You know what I mean? I started with corny kegs because I had a bunch of corny kegs around, which meant I actually did a batch uh you know, a batch size smaller than five. I was doing like four or something like that.
+
+[10:10] And um uh, you know, like most people when they start, I was interested, never really got past like super high OG uh I didn't I wasn't like hyper bitter, but I was like pretty high OG uh like very carbonated stuff that I I force carbonated um afterwards. Um, you know, I pretty much was able to use the only thing that I had to get that I didn't have at the time was the uh was the mill. They the you know to do the uh to you know coarsely uh grind up the um the grains. 'Cause I had already a turkey fryer, right? Uh even though you can't use that in the city those pots I know there's people who hate aluminum whatever and you know whatever if you're one of those people then don't use it you know with the you don't ask me you ask me so I'm telling you I use the uh uh giant like aluminum um turkey fryer pots and those suckers hold I gotta remember I gotta look back I think they hold roughly six gallons so you can you can put a good amount in and still uh uh you know bo boil down um a bit uh you're gonna need uh I'm assuming you're gonna you're not investing in any like recirculated mash stuff right away so you're probably right uh no but actually I don't know I do have a circulator so is there any way not to completely ruin it or um just kind of like holding a temperature for a mash with that you know it's been so long since uh it's been so long since uh since I've done it that uh you know I didn't have a circulator at the time I considered starting up again when I did have a circulator as I was looking at doing a recirculated mash even before they had uh circulators but I just never I never got into it I was just doing stuff based on the old you know choose your strike temperature and then you know bring it up and then you can you know adjust the temperature by you know uh in a got cooler I did the old traditional kind of got cooler you know five gallon got cooler uh one they I don't know if they still call it that but you know the big five gallon igloos that everyone uses yes yeah that's what I use that's I that's the other thing I had to buy.
+
+[12:08] Um you know I don't know what the issue because it's been so long since I've researched it on um kind of uh what the effects of uh like positive or negative of having that much uh oxygen flow through if you're gonna use a circulator to get it going, you know, whereas the old systems, eh I just don't know. I just don't know. I mean maybe it'd be good, maybe it'd be bad. It's been so I haven't even like I I haven't even put the flow chart of how to do it in my mind as something I planned on doing in years and years. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:36] Like ten years. Um but I would definitely start um I would definitely start with the the the good old fashioned uh got cooler uh technique. Uh corny kegs are a good place to start because uh it's easy to get the stuff in and out of them although uh I I had to cheat. I opened it up and cut the tubing down so that I could rack better. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:59] But or just buy a carboy. I just didn't ha I didn't have a lot of room in my apartment. You know corny kegs are very like uh space uh efficient you know what I mean because they're relatively thin. They're tall but they're relatively thin and they fit in my cabinets. And so like I could do everything in a corny cake although I know most people are gonna think I'm a jerk for doing my primary in a in a corny cake.
+
+[13:21] I never tried doing uh the primary in uh five gallon buckets. I know a lot of people enjoy the the the bucket fermentation I've never I just never never done it. But the good thing about the corny was I had two corneys, one for my primary and then I would rack over into the other guy and then I would force carbonate that guy and I it was on tap right away from the get go. So I never bottled, I just kept a sucker on tap. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:43] And I wasn't taking it anywhere. I was just drinking it in my house and so that was a good kind of a a good kind of a uh a solution. I mean I don't know. Is that just helpful or no? Yeah absolutely I was just kind of interested in hearing your background with it wasn't they mean uh look I mean uh I don't know if if you're like me, you're gonna want to go obviously you're gonna want to go all grain because otherwise why would you do it?
+
+[14:04] You're gonna want to control as many of the aspects as you can. If I had stayed in the Yeah, I'm I'm already there. Yeah, if I had stayed in it even another six months, I would have attempted to malt. You know what I mean? And and probably another six months after that.
+
+[14:18] I think it it before I would have attacked the uh recirculating mash, I would have attacked the malt. And then probably after the malt, I would attack the mash. And then I would inv but the problem is you only have what your apartment space, so everything has to pack away, everything has to be closet friendly. Can you there used to be an outfit out of Ohio that made really nice fermenters out of Sankey kegs? Um and like they made things that you could kind of repurpose as fermenters and boiling things, and like that was kind of the the next step up, and that's what I would have done if I'd stayed in it for another like year, year and a half, because they can kind of fit in a closet.
+
+[14:51] You have to throw a bunch of stuff away and mash all of your like get rid of all of your stuff so you could put it in a closet. Oh, the other thing I did, uh I put a temperature control on it. I uh I put uh my cold water system uh through a solenoid with a temperature control so that I could control the temperature of the fermentation, assuming that I wanted to drop it low because my house was always above kind of the ideal temperature at that time, even for the uh AU strains that I was using. So anyway, there you have it. Hope hope that's helpful.
+
+[15:20] Uh thank you. Yeah, cool. Um Peter, uh back on the you want to get why first of all give a sh you want to give a shout out to some of the people that's helped help with the museum, yeah. Yeah, hold on. But you're you're actually you're you should give the shout-out, really.
+
+[15:32] Well, no, you're here, you're the museum. We're both gonna shout out. Here's the so here's what you're doing. Well, why don't you give me my phone that had that? No, that was actually the wrong list.
+
+[15:40] Those are people who didn't want this shout-out. Uh who said they didn't want to be mentioned. But this is a list of that. That's why they're in red. Below the red, below the red.
+
+[15:48] So just so you know, like I was about to give a shout-out specifically only to those people who asked to not be conventioned. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. She's just trying to throw monkey rent and things.
+
+[15:59] Yeah, so we're just gonna give to the uh to the yes. Now now these are people that have helped us in various ways. Yes. Yeah. So uh Bill and Mata, super thanks to Bill.
+
+[16:12] He's actually on our board now. You wanted to say a little bit. Yeah, Bill's awesome. He's he runs uh IW group, it's advertising firm focuses on uh minority demographics. Yeah.
+
+[16:22] Awesome guy. Good man. Yeah. He got me into the vice president Biden's house, so I'll take that. And uh Peter, like who is like, you know, the the joke master general made a box of cereal with Biden's face on it called Cheery Joe's.
+
+[16:34] Yeah, he liked that. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure he did he did he give you a bear hug? Did he squeeze the life of you while he was? Yeah, yeah, nice, nice.
+
+[16:43] Uh uh Harold McGee. Uh you guys, anyone who listens to this show doesn't know Harold McGee is just go look it up. Just like drop, turn off the thing, go on the other section of the internet and look up Harold McGee. Uh he's been helping us out a lot with uh kind of ideas and just you know in general plus. Also goes by MCG, that's his stage name.
+
+[16:59] Uh yeah, yeah. Uh Sarah Marsh. Yeah. I'm gonna bring these people out, and you're gonna describe what's going on. Also uh made some you know, great supporter.
+
+[17:09] Yeah, Sam Tigan. Yeah, he hooked us up with some great uh fabricators too, and uh he's been yeah, awesome. Yeah, uh Ryan, whose last name I can't pronounce, so it goes by like Mr. Lyon, Dandelion, but I'm gonna give it a shot. Uh Chetty Yarwardana.
+
+[17:25] Man, yeah. London. Bartender, well known. Uh Romy Vrelin. Yep, also a great supporter.
+
+[17:31] Yep. Pedro Mendez. Yep, Pedro's coming from Texas. Right? John Cooper.
+
+[17:36] Yeah, John's uh Australian. Uh yeah, awesome, awesome guy. Yeah, Jen Bieler. Yeah. Yep, Jenny Wang and the Modernist Pantry crew.
+
+[17:45] Yeah, you know that. You know that whole crew. Yeah. Yeah. We bought a bunch of stuff for our tastings from them.
+
+[17:50] We used to be affiliated here with the radio program. Yeah. Modernistpantry.com. They don't like us no more. I don't know.
+
+[17:55] I guess they still like us. Jack, do they not like us anymore? No, I mean I can't answer that. Wow. Wow.
+
+[18:01] All right. I like them. Uh me too. ModernistPantry.com. Remember, we used to get to say that all the time.
+
+[18:06] Yeah, that was great. Yeah. Anyway, thanks to all those people for supporting MoFad. Uh yeah, means a lot to us. It's a project that we're all really passionate about.
+
+[18:13] Yeah, but why don't we tell these people who may or may not like know what the hell we're talking about, what the project is. Yeah, so we're we're opening the world's first large scale museum that'll have exhibits you can eat called the Museum of Food and Drink. It's a project that Dave's been working on for over 10 years, me about four years. And it's something that we think really needs to happen. Uh and we're actually now at an extremely important moment where we're about to open up our first 5,000 square foot space in Williamsburg in about a little over a month.
+
+[18:38] And we have a pretty awesome exhibition planned. Uh the flavor industry, it's gonna involve tastings and smellings, and uh, you know, Dave's putting together some pretty cool exhibits for that. Yeah, Peter, this part they already heard. You gotta get to the new stuff. Remember we had a cool right in the middle.
+
+[18:51] The new stuff is what they're gonna see when they get there. So for instance, we're gonna we're gonna have Stas is like, what the hell? So the uh I I I like I'm just imagining your face, Stas, how far are your shoulders crammed up into your ears now? What? What?
+
+[19:03] Right? You're giving the big shrug. Her shoulders are above her head, right? Yeah, yeah. They're sure like her head is like, you know, on the floor compared to where her shoulders are.
+
+[19:11] Oh my god, Peter. She giving she's given the fingers. Not the finger, like the middle finger, the the the five, yeah. The f you know, the the thumb against the the thumb against the rest of the fingers. The slight head shake horizontally.
+
+[19:24] Yeah, that the the lower lip pushed up. You know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Uh yeah. So, anyways.
+
+[19:29] So the the point being that uh what are you gonna see when you get there? You're gonna see uh well we're allowed to say some of it, right? Yeah, some, but you gotta keep it a little vague. The New York Times really wants to have these. Oh my god.
+
+[19:40] You know what? People, this is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Backlash. Look, back in the day, right? It used to be the be you know, like well, if uh if the New Yorker is writing about it, we don't want to write about it anymore.
+
+[19:53] But like seriously, like isn't you know most of the d drivers we have now? Is it real whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. The rules are the rules, people, and we can't talk, but I'll let you know this. We went to Monell uh a while ago and saw that this uh device they had called an old factometer. And an old factometer is really stupid name because it doesn't actually meter anything.
+
+[20:13] It's not a meter of any type. What it is is it's a device that delivers uh sense. And so, you know, we knew that we needed to, because we were doing with the flavor industry here in the history of the flavor industry. Uh and so we knew we had to do something where we delivered uh sense in a way that were you know very interactive, but we didn't really know kind of whether these basic ideas that we wanted to do were feasible, so we went and saw it and saw when they'd womped up. And so uh now I'm building a bunch of these in my house, which is what I'm spending most of my time doing now is building these tubas that well we c I call them stink tubas.
+
+[20:45] Yeah. But uh we won't call them that the exhibition because that's kind of gross. It's kind of grown on me. Stink tuba? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:50] Because it should be like boom boom boom boom boom of smell. Yeah, yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Uh there's gonna be uh Peter has learned how to make uh tablets.
+
+[21:00] Drugs. Well, oh my god. If we were on any sort of like watch list, we were we're totally on it now. We have tableting machines. Yeah, powders like powders galore, and the stink removers.
+
+[21:10] Oh my god. Yeah, we have like all we have like we've been buying so much stuff that could get us on a DEA or any sort of like terror watch list to for this uh exhibition. But it's it's gonna be good. Uh a little bit Family friendly exhibition, folks. Yeah.
+
+[21:24] Little little preview. The reason the flavor industry is interesting is we're only the exhibition itself is only going to be about what, eighteen hundred square feet or something like that. Yeah, two thousand a little over two thousand. Two thousand square feet. So we needed to choose something that we could do in a fairly small amount of space uh that addressed something important to the museum.
+
+[21:39] Everything the museum deals with is gonna be um not just uh science, which I'm interested in, but uh history, uh culture, um economics, yeah. Um you know, the the environment to to a certain extent. And so um the kind of rise of the flavor industry over the last hundred years as an historical fact that was really predicated on this one simple idea that uh molecules that molecules are foo, uh, you know, are flavors and tastes, uh, and that a flavor and taste is really nothing but a specific uh molecule. Now how it's presented to you is different, right? Uh, but really, you know, there's kind of this cor correspondence between them and that kind of unhinging of uh flavors and aromas uh and tastes from uh the actual substrate of the food uh is kind of what allowed the flavor industry to rise and become a dominant force in our kind of in in in our food now for you know for good or for ill.
+
+[22:35] And so, you know, we're not uh you know, it's not uh an expose, it's more just an explanation of kind of how this came to be, uh how it works, how uh you know, how your uh sensory equipment um works. And we're gonna highlight a couple of you know interesting historical examples. Most you know, MSG, and we we're not gonna go super rant on MSG the way that I would if we were doing it on this uh on the radio program. Yeah. Right.
+
+[22:57] Yeah, but we're still gonna clear up, you know, uh debunk some of the stuff that has uh you know, some of the the more uh the the whacker claims around MSC for lack of better words. Yeah, you're gonna spray some uh you're gonna spray some uh scientific fabris all over uh all over that. Uh but the uh also um uh vanilla. Vanilla is super interesting uh because it was one of the early flavors uh that was uh synthesized and it has a very interesting kind of economic uh history. So look for that kind of stuff, right?
+
+[23:28] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um go to, so yeah, if you want to learn more about the exhibition and about the space we're opening up in October, lab.mofad.org. That's lab.mofad.org.
+
+[23:37] And our ticket pre-sale is going to start September 28th. 28th. So yeah, you should go on our mailing list if you're not on it already, and you'll get the announcement. Oh, yeah. Okay, listen.
+
+[23:46] So for I haven't like the entire season of my garden and everything is we totally missed. So I don't even know what I've talked about and what what I haven't. Uh but I have this interesting spice. I know you've tasted it before, but you taste it again. Jack, you want to taste this spice?
+
+[23:58] I absolutely do. All right. So uh I can't actually you this one's dried. I can't use this at the bar because it's not G, you know, grass, it's not generally recognized as safe just because it's not part of the list, but it has been used for a long time. So take this comes off of a tree in my uh in my backyard called uh Lindera benzoin, the spice bush.
+
+[24:15] Okay. Uh that's actually extremely common, and it was uh the settlers use this bush to kind of determine whether or not you had if the bush grew there, they knew that your ground was fruitful, right? So it's tasteless here. Just chew on it. It kind of looks like a poo pellet, by the way.
+
+[24:28] Oh, it does. Oh, it is a poop pellet. No, uh, but it has like a flavor of like uh kind of pink peppercorn. Yeah, pink peppercorn, exactly. And like a little bit of uh a juniper, kind of a resonancey uh note to it.
+
+[24:39] Oh wow. Isn't that fantastic? I love it. Isn't that amazing? That is amazing.
+
+[24:43] The crab grows in my backyard. I want to copy it. I was worried that it was gonna be all fibrous. No, it's delicious, right? I'm I'm looking like uh I unfortunately I'm not there this week, and I hope I picked uh like a small amount.
+
+[24:54] I'm gonna go back and try to pick a whole Ziploc bag. My garden is full of it. And if uh, you know, I'm gonna try to get as much as I can and keep it. I mean, but I could go sweet, I could go savory. It's like a pink peppercorn.
+
+[25:03] Could go sweet, could go savory. Mendera benzoin. Uh and so that you know, so what I do is is and you know, uh I just look around, like, what do we got? You know what I mean? Another one I was I was kind of lucky, like, so we had these things called uh uh called uh may apples, which is an American kind of mandrake, and uh poisonous.
+
+[25:22] Poisonous. But but cool leaves, cool leaves, but poisonous. Uh le the leaves poisonous, roots, poisonous, unripe fruit, poisonous. Uh and but I've been waiting for these things to ripen up. I had all these fruits, right?
+
+[25:36] And I was like, meh, yeah, man, not quite ready to pick. I leave for a week, I come back, the deer ate them all. All so I go through all these like things, all except for three. I found three ones that were too crappy for the deer even to bother with. And I picked them off, and I swear to God, I am glad the deer ate them all because if they were even mildly poisonous, I would be dead right now because of how many I would have eaten.
+
+[26:04] I would have eaten so many. It's unclear whether the seeds are poisonous, but the pulp is like because you know what the thing is is that most temperate fruits, right? Most and you know, I'm here in New York on Connecticut, temperate land, right? Most temperate fruits have that kind of temperate, fruity flavor, you know. You got your apples, you got your pears, you know, you got your cherries, which I can't have, bastards.
+
+[26:25] You got your plums, you got most of these things, like they like none of them taste tropical. Do you know what I'm saying when I say that? There's a tropical flavor, yeah. Yeah, these taste tropical. Yeah.
+
+[26:33] Whoa. Nice. Yeah, these taste like uh they have a bit of the, you know, like the real like fruity tropical sour guavas, those little guys. Yeah. Like they have like some of that going, but they're just tastes amazingly tropical.
+
+[26:46] I would I would have eaten myself to death on this. Are you saying that you're generally more of a fan of tropical fruits over temperate fruits? No, I love I love both. It's just you're not used to having a local fruit that in in here in my area that has that kind of tropical note to it, and so when you did, you would just gorge until you died. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:02] You know? I wonder what the tropical note is, right? I mean, I'm sure that somebody in the flavor industry could help us out with it. Like, what is you know I mean, like what's the common thread between a papaya, banana, a mango, guava, question. I mean, like, obviously, we have like a sort of understanding that those fruits come from the same region, or you know, at least the you know, the same band around the world, but right, but they're in widely variant.
+
+[27:24] Yeah, why widely widely variant. What is it about them that there's like you feel like there should be a common thread between all those fruits. Hey, let's sit on that for one second, take a very, very short break and come right back. Alrighty. Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins.
+
+[27:44] I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a Fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity.
+
+[28:07] Small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them. And Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's Heritage Turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo Churro lamb chops, is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact.
+
+[28:43] Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at Heritage Foods USA.com for more information. Here's what Heritage Radio Network would sound like without donations. It's not as good as the show you were just listening to, is it?
+
+[29:09] Give us a few bucks. Help keep us running. HeritageRadio Network.org. Click the donate tab on the top right corner. Yeah, and for uh every uh donation you send, uh Steve Jenkins will shoot a Navajo churro in the face.
+
+[29:22] In order to save it. Nice. Yeah. Stas, you love that one. Stas loves it.
+
+[29:31] I love it. I love it. Hey, people, you know, like uh Soupy Sales got fired for saying stuff like that. We won't actually shoot a Navajo Churro in the face for every time you donate. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[29:41] Not in the face, at least. Well, so if you want to save it, you know, sometimes you gotta do the hard thing, Jack. Yeah to save it. All right. Uh okay, uh, let's get to some uh let's get to some write-in since it's been quite a while.
+
+[29:53] Uh 10-minute warning right here. Oh, geez Louise. Well, you know. All right. Uh okay.
+
+[29:59] I'll I'll get to some MDF first. Hey, Dave, Anastasia and the team. I have a question about making Biltong curing box, a Biltong curing box out of MDF. Biltong, you know what Biltong is, yeah? Nope.
+
+[30:11] Dried uh meat. It's like a jerky. No, nice. Supposedly it's great. I've never had real.
+
+[30:16] I've had I've had uh I've had the fake. As they say, gankers can get the fake. You can get the real from the Biltong man. But I like uh I've never had the real one, unfortunately. Anyways, uh so it's a box to make this uh dried uh dried South African meat in.
+
+[30:29] I have a question about making a Biltong curing box out of MDF. I just started by the way, what well the whole question is about the MDF. MDF stands for me medium density fiber board. You familiar with that? Yeah.
+
+[30:39] Yeah, okay. Uh I just started drawing up plans to make a large uh cabinet out of MDF when a couple of scaremongers, scaremongers, uh started uh waving their arms at me about formaldehyde degassing from the MDF and poisoning the meat. I looked into the particular wood I will be using, and it has a formaldehyde rating of E0, which is the lowest. Uh my question is have the scaremongers fooled me, or should I actually consider changing construction materials? This all sounds a bit crazy to me because if you Google uh image search built on box, uh sounds like it's gonna be something like not like safe for work, right?
+
+[31:18] And two, most modern food uh pantries are made out of MDF and often have food sitting in them for weeks slash months on end. Think potatoes, onions, pumpkins. And I've never heard of this being an issue. The Biltong box will be at a max temperature of 35 degrees Celsius, and the meat there will be uh be there for no longer than uh six days. 35 C.
+
+[31:36] What is that? That's like a hundred. 35 C. It's like 90s, 90s. 90s?
+
+[31:42] Yeah. Yeah. I know it's not super, super hot because I know the Western Desert lives and breeze at 45 degrees. I think of like 40 and up as being extremely hot. Yeah?
+
+[31:50] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh the meat will be in there no longer than six days. Thanks for the awesome work you do.
+
+[31:55] Uh keep it up, regard Rory Murns. Uh, okay, look. Here's a couple of things. I think you're right. There's a low temperature.
+
+[32:01] Most of the built-on boxes I've seen have a light bulb in the in the bottom uh to provide uh you know the relative heating. Uh so built on box, uh, for those of you that Google it is basically a box that you put to hang the meat in with a bunch of air vent holes with uh like some stuff over it to stop flies and whatnot from getting in. And then a source to cause kind of convection and to keep it kind of relatively dry and moving, and that convective source is usually uh uh like a light bulb that they put in the bottom. So the question is is whether or not uh locally the MDF can heat up over that where the light bulb is and start producing some uh some nastiness. Uh you know, I wouldn't worry about it too much if you can't smell it, but I will say this.
+
+[32:41] I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate MDF. I hate MDF. MDF is the worst. I freaking hate it. I hate picking it up.
+
+[32:51] I hate buying it. I hate cutting it. I hate it. I hate it so much. Here's some other things.
+
+[32:57] Here's some things, some good things about MDF. Sucker's cheap. Yeah. Right. For prototyping.
+
+[33:02] Yeah, yeah. It it cuts well, right? It glues and staples well, right? It's relatively uniform. Here's what sucks.
+
+[33:09] Sucks suckety sucks about MDF. It is heavy as a mother. Even the lighter MDF is heavy as a mother. Secondly, MDF chips on the edges, right? Thirdly, if you try to screw into the edge of MDF later for whatever reason, you're screwed because it's gonna rip out.
+
+[33:24] Third, should you rip out MDF, you have to put a bunch of you know stuff on it to get a screw to hold it again because it's not gonna hold again because it's MDF. Fourth, God forbid if you have unsealed MDF and you get water on the edge of it because it's going to soak up that water like a freaking sponge and flare out like a lunatic. Third, if it's big, it's gonna bow over time because the sucker doesn't hold its dimensions. I just hate it. I hate everything about it.
+
+[33:46] I mean, it is cheaper, right? Uh, but I just detest it. I just I just think it's an execrable, nasty thing, unless you're gonna paint it. It holds paint really, really well. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:58] Uh, and you know, I had my uh last cabinets at my last apartment made out of the particle board, and I screamed and yelled, and I was gonna pay the upcharge for the for the Baltic just because I hate this stuff so much, and we didn't, and I reg regretted it for years because after a while this stuff sags, it just doesn't hold its dimensions the way real plywood does. I just detest it. But I think you're probably safe, especially at those low temperatures. Wait, so how do you feel about MDF, Dave? Love it.
+
+[34:27] Yeah, I'm unclear. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't I wasn't clear enough on my feelings. Uh yeah. Anyways.
+
+[34:33] Uh okay. Um my god, what am I gonna get to? Okay, I was trying uh this is from uh uh Liz Myers or Lizzy, it's Liz Liza Myers. Liza. I was trying to make an agar fluid gel out of maple syrup because I love the flavor of maple syrup, but find its consistency is too liquid.
+
+[34:51] Uh I want the good flavor of real maple syrup with the texture of fake maple syrup. I tried to set the syrup by boiling and adding 2% agar. It kind of set into a stickyish, jellyish thing, and that was okay, but the texture of the syrup uh got a little crystallize-y. I was wondering if there was a better way to do this uh or why the maple syrup crystallized. Well, first of all, maple syrup is uh 66% sugar by uh by weight, right?
+
+[35:14] So it's a lot, like a lot of it, a lot of it is uh sugar. And if you add basically anything other than uh liquid to it, uh if you remove any liquid from it at all, it's going to start crystallizing because you've taken the water away from the sugar, right? So, you know, because it 66 on the maple syrup is about the limit where you can not have crystallization. It's kind of I guess why they take it there. Um honey can go a big uh a good bit uh farther up because it's completely inverted.
+
+[35:48] The sugar is completely inverted, uh almost completely inverted. Uh so you know, so it doesn't crystallize as readily. So sugar, you can I mean a honey you can take up to a bricks of like uh 82. So what I would do, were I you is I would make a uh a thickener, like a very thick thickener and with pure water, and then just cut your maple syrup with that thickener slightly. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:12] And then what that'll do is is it'll just thicken up the the water that you have, but it's not going to uh cause any kind of crystallization to happen. The fake syrups are made with like sugar and uh I think if they think they use microcrystalline cellulose uh and stuff like that. The other thing you could do, if you want to set it solid as a rock without anything changing it, you could probably uh you want to make and you want to use agar, you'll still have to dilute it, but what you'll do is you'll hydrate the agar in pure water, and then you'll add the maple syrup to it, making sure that the temperature of the maple syrup is above about 100 degrees, and then as the temperature drops, it will uh it will form a solid. Uh the other thing you could do is you could make a poorly uh you could do a poorly set pectin, especially because you're not using acid. You can use um one of the pectins that can set uh without the presence of uh of uh acid, and you could probably do uh some amount of thickening that way.
+
+[37:05] Um bunch of different um things, but straight agar isn't gonna uh isn't gonna help you out, right? Is that a good answer? No. How much more time I got, Jackity Jack? A few minutes here.
+
+[37:14] Okay. All right, listen. Two. Two. Jeez.
+
+[37:16] Helen, I'm gonna get to your chickpeas uh on the next on the next week. Um I do catering. This is from uh Noya. I do catering for bar and bat mitzvahs. I'd like to boil large quantities of fries at a time, uh, with the temperature staying below eighty Celsius.
+
+[37:30] I don't know why you necessarily want the temperature to stay below eighty Celsius unless you're trying to do that starch kind of set trick that uh Steingarden does with the mashed potatoes. Some people do it for fries too, but anyway. Thus far I come up with hotel pans over burners, or I could buy a stock pot induction stove. There must be a better way, please help. Uh Noya.
+
+[37:46] Yes. Well, there is a better way, actually. Uh there's several. I mean, if you don't want to just get a giant pot, first of all, do you have a deep fryer? I have a deep fryer.
+
+[37:54] So what I do is before I f well, of course you do. You have free, you're making french fries, right? So like if you have a if you mean if you have a if you're gonna do a lot of them, you probably have a real fryer. So what I do is uh at the end of the night when you filter the uh fryer oil out, your fryer's empty now, right? Right.
+
+[38:08] Right? Yep. Yeah, okay. So what you do is is you use your fryer as the boil kettle for the uh for the potatoes. Boom.
+
+[38:16] So what I always do is I put my uh water in, uh, I then uh salt and I boil up all the potatoes in batches in uh in that, spread them out on the racks to to dry out or do whatever else I'm gonna do. Then when I'm done, I drain out the water, then clean all the salt and water back out, and then it's ready to fry, ready for the first fry by the time it's coming. Super, super convenient. Fryers are super fast to heat up. They heat up in like five minutes.
+
+[38:39] They're freaking awesome. That's good one good way to do it. If you have if you're doing catering and you have a combi oven, you can just throw them out on uh on racks and steam them in a in a combi, especially if you have a combi. If you really want to stay below eighty, you can because you can set it at uh 100% humidity with uh lower than two twelve, and you can do them in a combi. I've done that with a with a lot of success.
+
+[39:00] Um, but uh you're gonna have to pre-salt. If you're gonna do that, you have to like soak them in salt before and assault them or something because you're not gonna get the salt penetration that way. But both of those things uh may or may not work. Uh let us know. Uh and so I think Jack's gonna rip me off of the friggin' air in in a second.
+
+[39:17] So I still have to get to uh Helen's chickpea question, and I still have to get to uh Ken, Ken who writes in on uh the definition of the sandwich. Right. Uh but I will give you this one, I'll give I'll give you one paragraph of that on the way out, folks. And uh remember to tune in next week. We're gonna be live again with cooking issues.
+
+[39:36] Uh and he goes, I listened to the discussion. This is Ken. I listened to the discussion on the definition of sandwich, and I now feel strongly that someone ought to tell my mom that uh she did not waste her money uh or I did not waste my time majoring in philosophy. Nice. Nice.
+
+[39:52] All right. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[40:20] You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:35] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live, but on a telephone, somewhere in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Uh on the Heritage Radio Network. My uh train went out of service, so we're doing a uh Stas, you there? Yeah, I'm here.
+
+[0:51] Yeah, we're we're we're doing uh do you remember that video for uh uh that Bruce Brinkstein did for the uh streets of Philadelphia? Yes. Only Philadelphia doesn't have an elevated railway that's gonna drown out any noise that I can make. Like how much background noise is there for real? Just a little bit of wind.
+
+[1:13] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that always my big old iPhone uh six plus is like, you know, it's like a billboard. Uh so you know, it's trying to shield me from the wind. Like I try to get off the main drag here, maybe be a little quieter. All right.
+
+[1:26] So Stas, we're gonna have to do a little bit, uh, not what we normally do. You can still call your questions in two, 7184972128, that's 718497-2128. How are you doing over there, Jack? Can you hear me? I can hear you.
+
+[1:36] Yeah, we have the the chat room too, so I'm able to actually communicate with people directly. Nice. And uh, and by the way, you wanted to tell everyone while uh what we're walking to today is the beginning of the live, the live tweet a thon madness, at least for cooking issues. You've been live for a couple of days. Yep in general, but you want to explain how that how that crud works?
+
+[1:55] Yeah, I think if you're tuning in live right now, you can see the chat room. I've got uh a bunch of people in here now chatting with me. Uh they say that the L train is the enemy of quality, but they wasn't on the L. It wasn't the L, yeah. It was what?
+
+[2:08] Yeah, I was on the JMZ line. Yeah, whatever they call that thing now. The L is the enemy of quality. Yeah. It's just it was one of those things where like the the train had a problem, and so anyone who lives in New York is familiar with this.
+
+[2:20] The train's already extremely late and it stopped all the other trains from going, but they don't take out of service as soon as they have a problem. Instead they make the train be 15 minutes late and then they pull it out of service so that you're a half hour late. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yep.
+
+[2:33] My favorite, my favorite people, uh, which is why uh Emmanuel Kant never went more than two miles away from his house. I like that. This is why he never visited the mountains. You know why? He went he once went on a carriage ride.
+
+[2:47] You know, the famous philosopher, who's by the way, like a a complete nutbag and a weirdo. But uh he this is what people read people read these people's uh works today, and they're like, you know, they they they no never take the time to realize that these people were freaking lunatics. So he takes a carriage ride one day, and there's a problem with the carriage, like the uh you know, the axle breaks or something, I forget exactly what happened. And he is late for an appointment. So he jots down in his book, uh, don't take carriage rides.
+
+[3:16] They might make you wait for appointments. And so the guy never like left within a couple of miles of his house. Freaking weirdo. And yet people for hundreds of years are like, this is the person I should base like how, you know, what I what I think about thought on a freaking like clear loony bin. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[3:31] Anyways, uh I don't want to get any I don't want to get any hate down from philosopher people, but he's yeah, I never really enjoyed reading Kant. Do you guys ever have to read that stuff? No, what was his big point? Well, it's kind of a big dense, like uh uh well it's a big dense kind of school of thought. We'll we'll get into it.
+
+[3:51] We'll get into some of that. We should probably get some questions. Oh, before we do that, um there's something else that we had to talk about. No, I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[3:59] Uh okay, so Stas, uh you got the questions up or no? No. Well, get the questions up. Remember back when I said you're gonna read the questions? No, you never sent that.
+
+[4:10] I did. Remember I said we're gonna do it differently today. Nastashi's gonna read. Oh, you weren't listening. Jack, do you have the qu does anyone have the questions up?
+
+[4:17] There was a question on the Did you get that email there? What? No, you didn't. There was a question on Mastiha, Mastika there, uh, but I can't look at it because the only instrument that I would have to look at the question is currently against my ear as I'm uh talking. I do have a question from Josh Weinstein about enzyme soak.
+
+[4:37] Uh he's yeah, he says in episode 112, Dave said he now prefers a half inch fry. The enzyme soak was originally uh 25 C one hour. What time and temperature does Dave Arnold now use for his enzyme soak? Same. The reason I like uh the bigger fry is because, okay, it's the same basic uh procedure with the exception that uh the larger fry might actually require some dry time, whereas the uh thinner fries didn't require a lot of drying.
+
+[5:12] Remember, French fry, like good French fry uh work is all about uh managing with care, right? So you have the main problem with uh French fries is either there's too much moisture in in the center and you haven't developed a good enough crust, and if you haven't developed a good enough crust, they go soggy conversely if you focus all of your energy on a super good crust uh you can create what we call the hollow fry so it's like super crunchy on the outside the hollow in the middle so what you want to do it's a very difficult balancing act and the enzyme soak is one of the things you can do to um kind of skew that balancing act in your favor now because we've in you know my opinion gotten um successful enough uh with the French fry recipe that you could have both a good exterior and interior I then wanted to up the amount of interior that was there because the whole French fry was enjoyable right whereas if really all you can do is make a good crust and anything on the interior is just messing up your fry well then you go thinner right which is why people make those shoestring fries which by the way I don't like I mean I like them I don't like to make them you guys like shoestring fries no I don't mind them. You don't mind them are you like no let me ask you a question. If yeah no no no definitely not you don't mean no no no no they're either gonna usually poorly done shoestring fries are either greasy or just like fried crunchies. Right.
+
+[6:35] Now no I'm not insulting a fried crunchy by the way I like a fried crunchy. But um anyways so I think in general uh the larger fries are also technically more uh interesting to tackle uh I don't like the giant giant fries though like those giant like I don't like those giant fries you guys like those no I'm not really a fan of them anyway so the answer is uh the same. But you might need a little dry time uh to get a little more moisture out than you would if you were using a uh three eighths uh uh three eighths uh inch fry. Is that a was that a good answer to I answer that? I think you got it.
+
+[7:13] Uh this is an easy this is an easy one I got from Joan Zuckerberg. Is there a culinary book which Dave Arnold would recommend above all others? Well of course you should buy liquid intelligence simply for its use as a coaster I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. Um you know I buy like I don't buy books um because I'm gonna use them for recipes usually I usually buy books because I really um wanna see somebody's point of view.
+
+[7:46] Sometimes I'll get them for uh you know like a specific culture learn about a specific culture. Um so it's kind of tough. It's like if you ask me a particular area then I'm like oh you gotta get that book. If you're interested in sauces like even though it's you know very old at this point, you should go pick up a copy of uh Peterson's uh sauce book because it was seminal now would I say that's the first cookbook you should go buy? No, but if I was doing uh sauces, it's also really interesting I like old books because they're a window into uh somebody else's uh like a different a different time a different frame set so you look at those recipes in that book for instance and there's a lot of reduced cream sauces because that was very i invoked in and it can give you kind of a slice of what was happening um at a particular time.
+
+[8:38] Um you like Harold McGee's yeah yeah I don't get yeah okay. If you gotta go buy on food and cooking you need to own that. That's like saying, you know, do you breathe? You know, do you buy liquids? You know what I mean?
+
+[8:50] But like I mean like cookbooks. Like what like what style? Italian. Ooh, that's interesting. What do you like for Italian stuff?
+
+[8:58] I don't. Oh, God. Do you love Italian food? I know. I I don't use I don't use the cookbook.
+
+[9:06] No. You don't like to read cookbooks, right? Because you don't care what people think about things, right? Right. Yeah.
+
+[9:12] I used to really enjoy uh when I was starting to, you know, cook seriously, like, you know, 25 uh or so years ago, uh, Giuliano Buggiali's books because he's such a nut on uh what he thinks is authentic and what he's not. He's like classic, like old school northern Italian, uh where like if it deviates even slightly from what he considers to be authentic, it's crap. And although I don't cook that way, I think it's kind of hilarious to like to read a book that's written from that perspective. So I like, oh, the cement truck is coming by, the one that always tries to kill me on my bicycle. Are you walking aboard here or are you?
+
+[9:51] Yeah. Oh I'm gonna show up in the studio at some point, at which point I will be able to read the questions off of my phone. Uh so I like his stuff for that. Uh I really liked, uh I don't know whether it's still dated or anyone reads it. I liked cooking by hand, Bertoli's book, because it was the first book that I had that you know went through the procedures uh pretty in depth for curing.
+
+[10:12] This is way before uh the charcuterie books came out. Uh it went through the production of uh Balsanic vinegars. It went through a bunch of stuff. I thought it was a really good book, but I don't know if people read it anymore. I mean, I like some of the old classics, like uh, you know, my the first uh cookbook that someone bought me uh to cook out of was uh Julia Child's uh Way to Cook, which I like.
+
+[10:34] I like uh Jacques Papin. We call him Jackie Peeps, but I like Jacques Capin's uh he has a two volume color work that was put out by uh Knopfs back when they didn't know any better that literally showed you how to skin a baby lamb so obviously it went out of print very quickly because no American back in the you know late 70s or 80s whatever it was uh wanted to learn to skin a baby lamb. Um I don't know I really like old versions of uh Peliprat the ones with the weird crazy sixties photos I really love the time life uh encyclopedia of uh foods of the of the world I think that's an amazing reference anyway I don't know I could go on and on and I probably shouldn't what's the next question ask your question Jack. Oh yeah I was uh speaking of cookbooks I tried to cook out of the Zahav cookbook this Moroccan carrot recipe and uh they wanted you to kind of cook the carrots in a uh in a pan with water just covering the carrots for about twenty minutes and then you take the carrots out of the water and they want you to reduce that carrot water into like a syrup and it's said to cook it for about 15 minutes more and it should turn into a syrup but it never turned into a syrup. Uh it just stayed like boiling water, you know?
+
+[11:49] And it stayed the consistency of water. Yeah okay okay that's good let's get into this here. So how do you slice the first of all like what are we talking? What's the ratio of carrot to water? About six carrots in a uh saucepan just barely covered with water.
+
+[12:03] So like you know the you know just covering the carrots but six whole carrots. Yeah how tall is the pan. What's that? How tall is the pan? It was probably I don't know six inches deep.
+
+[12:17] Yeah, you see, let's see, I'm looking at it. So, but it was it it was one of those ones that's like roughly six by six, so it was as tall as wide or taller than wide? Oh, no, it was definitely more wide than tall. Yeah, so you're adding probably more water than you would need to, um, because you're probably not getting the packing density that you want to get the so you probably started out with a higher level of water, which in and of itself isn't gonna give you problems. Except for you probably have to reduce it much more than uh than you think.
+
+[12:46] So there's there's a couple things that are going on. If it's reducing to a syrup, what that means is you've extracted stuff out of the carrots. So if your carrots aren't very flavorful, they're not very sweet, you're not gonna have a lot of stuff to extract, and there you have it. So you should be able to taste the water at the end of boiling, and you'll know, well, you know, like this doesn't have much flavor, so I'm gonna have to reduce the the living hell out of it, right? So in that case, you know, you might have to reduce it.
+
+[13:10] Also, it's it's impossible to say how many minutes you need to reduce something. Like uh, if I was gonna do this for a bar or or something, you would reduce it to a particular solid content, right? Like that's how you make like uh jellies, you know, you you take things down to a certain bricks level because you need a certain solid content to get the bodies. You need x percentage of sugar in the water. So and once you get to, you know, so the difference between like something that's uh let me put it this way 66% sugar by weight is maple syrup.
+
+[13:40] 82 is honey, right? Uh 50 uh is 50% sugar even still pours uh you know almost like water. Uh do we already talk about whipped creams corn like a waterfall? We already talked about pizza, uh C C A. Anyway, um remember that song?
+
+[13:56] Anyways, so uh it doesn't take that much less sugar in a product to all of a sudden make it uh much less um viscous. Did it taste good or no? It tasted fine, yeah. Yeah, it was just kind of soupy, you know, it's very watery. All right, Bushwick, man, I'm at uh borum and McKibben.
+
+[14:15] I want to go towards McKibben, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think that was probably your problem.
+
+[14:20] So it tasted good, but it wasn't syrupy. You just need to reduce it more. Because look, they don't know how powerful your stove is. Like how are you gonna tell someone to reduce something for 15 minutes? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[14:30] I don't know. Like m you know, maybe maybe I have a s in fact I do have a stove that's poorly uh regulated and I could I could boil a cow. You know what I mean? Because that's how much energy comes out of my uh burners. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[14:43] It's like almost like it is like a wok burner. My regular stove is like a wok burner. So if I crank that sucker, I can reduce it, uh, you know, if I can reduce anything almost instantly. The problem is you might scorch things. Whereas, you know, you might be in a situation where you have a low output stove and it could take you twice as long easily to reduce it.
+
+[15:00] So it really needs to be reduced on a consistency. Maybe you should have stuck with it longer. Or maybe you didn't cut your carrots small enough so you didn't get full extraction out. Is that possibility? That's no, I think more likely I should have just reduced it for longer.
+
+[15:12] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yeah, because if you're doing a short cook, also uh how much is extract I mean, if you cooked it per the recipe, then presumably you cooked it for the recipe. You know that uh back in the day, are you a fan of uh vegetables that are on the crunchy side or vegetables that are cooked through?
+
+[15:29] No, crunchy. Yeah, yeah. So you're extracting less. Like the crunchier the vegetable is, the less you've broken this stuff down, the less you've extracted out. You see what I'm saying?
+
+[15:38] So like if you're if you're pulling them early, then even no matter what, you're in a situation where you're gonna have less sugar than you would otherwise because you haven't extracted as much out. I mean the Frenchy French is uh, you know, back when I was at the French Pulgaring Institute, they when I first started there, everyone was still very, very old school French. So they would get all pretzeled out if you gave them uh, you know, a crunchy vegetable that you know they just said this is parcooked, this is not you know what I mean? Like they were like it's not cooked. They want it, they want it basically cooked all the way through, not mushy, but cooked all the way through.
+
+[16:10] Whereas the average American taste now, I think skews towards um slightly undercooked. We know Stas likes freaking raw rice and pasta, basically. She's a freaking animal, a barbarian. Well, how how is it that you're the opposite of everything always? I love it.
+
+[16:30] I'm on more street, people. We're getting close. Let's squeeze in a few chat rooms. I got a few chat room questions we'll we'll get to. Uh Elliot wants to know if he grinds nixtimalized corn in a food processor.
+
+[16:41] Will it suck? Uh will it suck. So for those of you that like, you know, aren't hit to the fact nixamalizing corn is when you treat corn uh with uh calcium hydroxide, usually you treat with other alkali, and it takes on the uh the uh it changes the structure and the flavor uh and the nutritional properties actually of the corn, and when you grind it properly in uh in a Nixtaval grinder, uh you get masa, which is the thing from which uh corn tortillas are made. Okay. Uh will it suck?
+
+[17:13] And the problem with making uh nixamalizing corn uh is that it's very hard to grind it properly. I now have a grinder I like. I have made it in a food processor. The problem with it is you have to add more water than you should, right? So it'll work.
+
+[17:29] You're gonna burn out. The last time I I did it, I didn't burn it out, but I ran my cuisine art so hard that it never was quite the same again. Because you have to have to sit there and just grind the ever loving crap out of it until you get the uh right texture. And you also need to um you need to uh like I say, add more water. So then sometimes, I'm not saying to do this, but sometimes if it's too watery when you're done, don't add a lot.
+
+[17:55] Take a little bit of extra water. You can add some solids back in, cheat it back to the right uh moisture content uh to get it right. That's what I would do. I have done it, it's not ideal, it's not the best, but it works. And I'm in the studio.
+
+[18:12] All right. Did you ever get the questions upstairs? Yeah. Okay. And I'm back.
+
+[18:18] Does that sound better? Wow, that was really cool. Yeah. I like how like uh I was able to get a Beastie Boy reference uh in there on the uh on the way. It's like a magic trick.
+
+[18:28] It is. And here you are. Here I am in the studio. Wow. Not just calling in anymore, like a incredible, like a freaking chump.
+
+[18:36] What if one of our callers did this one day? Just showed up. I would stop. Listen, if you do like, I'm not saying don't do this, but Nastasia will probably stab you. Because she'll assume she'll assume that you mean her harm.
+
+[18:50] Right. That'd be like a scene in a scary movie, and like you think it's a bad guy, but it's not, but then she stabbed them anyway. And well, one thing like anyone that knows her knows. Nastasia, not so much a wait and see kind of a lady. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:08] Not even just gut. It's like, oh, uh, we're we're stabbing this dude now. Okay. You know what I mean? Like you see the beginning of that movie uh Three Kings with uh Ice Cube and Mark Wahlberg back in the day?
+
+[19:19] Uh no. You didn't see that? You should see it. It's a good movie. At least I remember it being a good movie.
+
+[19:22] But the point is, is that you know, Mark Wahlberg sees someone and like he's like, Are we shooting people? You know what I mean? Like that's how the movie starts, and they're like, yes, and so he shoots the person. Stas is like that. It's like, oh, so that's that's what's happening.
+
+[19:29] I'm just saying you're likely to get stabbed. If you show up unannounced, Jack won't stab you, I won't stab you, Nastasi will stab you. Not out of hate. Not out of hate. Just instinct.
+
+[19:46] Let's take a quick little break so I can get the sponsor message in and you can catch up. All right, we'll be right back live. This is not an advertisement. I promise. This is not an ad.
+
+[20:13] Cooking issues listener, you're already cooler than most people for listening to this show. And if you do listen to the show, then you know I'm Jack Insley, aka Jackie Molecules, aka the man behind the booth. I need you to make us look cool against all the other shows. Let's make cooking issues the most supported show on the network. $1, $5, $20, $50.
+
+[20:33] Really, anything you can afford, please donate today to Heritage Radio Network.org. Click on the donate tab in the top right corner. Send us a note and let us know you came from Cooking Issues. Dave will appreciate it. I will appreciate it.
+
+[20:46] Even Nastasia will appreciate it. I promise. Give something today. Do it. Do it.
+
+[20:55] Give it. Do it. Do it. Right? Alright.
+
+[20:58] So should I get to some uh email questions now that uh I have the email questions up? Yeah. Alright. Okay. Uh see who wrote this in.
+
+[21:06] You know, that was the first question I asked on Cooking Issues ever, I think. Yeah? Yeah. Did I answer it properly? You did.
+
+[21:11] Oh nice. I'm so stoked. Calling again next week. I mean, sometimes I meet people at the bar, right? Because people at the bar, like Maggie Say, they're like, they're like, oh, I listen to you.
+
+[21:21] Oh, you ever ask a question? Like, no. I'm like, all right. You don't have to ask a question if you don't want to. Uh Matthew M from the Seattle area.
+
+[21:28] I like Seattle area, although I'm angry at the Seattle area now because my cousins are slowly drifting to it. So, you know, I'm losing, like, you know, I've basically lost my entire family dinner kitchen staff now. You know, like we had like the crew, we would crank it out, and like one half of the of the you know, the two brothers that would always come over, Ridge and James. They, you know, Ridge is like, tell what this, I'm moving back to Seattle. And I was like, oh man.
+
+[21:54] And then, you know, the third brother, Kai, he's like, I'm moving back to Seattle. So then you know James is gone. Yep. Worst. Worst, worst.
+
+[22:02] You know what the sad thing is? Like, you know, look, I'm a New Yorker. I don't know if you know this. I'm a New Yorker. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:09] My son Booker would like he would murder anyone so that he could stay in New York, probably. I mean, he would definitely like throw me off a bridge if it meant he got to stay in New York and not like move somewhere else. He would. I mean, I'm not saying he doesn't love me. I'm just saying he loves New York more.
+
+[22:22] You know what I mean? Uh but I think I could I could deal with Seattle. I mean, uh the weather and the looks and like the Pacific Northwest, like I groove on all that kind of stuff, except for the fact that I'm a New Yorker. Yep. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:33] Yep. What are your thoughts on Seattle, Jack? I've never been, but I got a little brother out there, a little half brother living in Seattle. And you never visited him? I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not calling you, you know, bad brother or anything.
+
+[22:45] I'm just saying. Yeah, well. Uh hey, look, you know. Yeah. No, it's one of the few places I haven't been in the country, like that area.
+
+[22:52] I haven't really been to the Pacific Northwest. Have you say have you been to Portland? I.e. Seattle Light. Boom!
+
+[22:57] Boom! No, I'm kidding. I love Portland. Portland's nice. You know what?
+
+[22:59] I think Portland, like at some point, like back in the in the 90s and like, you know, like 2000, 2001, 2002. I think the Seattle guys were like, we are the supreme leaders of this area. You know what I mean? Everyone else is a fake us. And I think Portland was like, no.
+
+[23:14] No. I think Portland has the mantle now, right? Like, if you were gonna say, What would you think of first? Jack, what would you think of first? If you think of Portland first or Seattle first?
+
+[23:22] Portland. See? No. But that's a complete reversal. It is, you're right.
+
+[23:25] Like twelve. This is all Seattle in the 90s. Seattle, Seattle, Seattle, Seattle, Seattle. Well, you know, and not just because of, you know, Soundgarden, Urvana, Pearl Jam. Yeah, although, you know, I don't know.
+
+[23:35] I think, you know, don't hold on to the past Seattle, you know. Come back to the future. Yeah, like what else do they got? They have salmon, coffee. They're delicious.
+
+[23:43] They got all, of course, they got Nathan Mirville, they got uh Chris Young, Chef Steps crew, they got uh, you know, Microsoft, they got a lot going for them. How about Chef Steps is in DC? No, Chef Steps is in uh Seattle. Yeah. Well, anyways.
+
+[23:57] Uh good salmon. Good salmon. Okay. Uh I I should get to the question. I'm a listener since January this year and have worked through most of the backlog.
+
+[24:04] I find the podcast to be an inspiring resource, so thanks for your great work. Uh one hobby that I picked up through listening to the podcast is homemade liqueurs. You like what do you call it? Liquors? Liqueur.
+
+[24:14] Do you say you like liqueur? Liquor? Liquor. Like uh booze. Met a guy uh yesterday that smelled like my Uncle Ralph.
+
+[24:24] Yeah. Where uh billiard, a billiard place. He's the guy that goes, he's like booze. They're like in the store drinking beer. What?
+
+[24:31] Why are we at a billionaire? Uh outside of my old uh where my apartment is. The neighborhood's totally changed, and one of the downtown billiard places was up there. So I walked in because Dax was like, I want to look at the pool table. So like I'll go into the pool tables, and I'm like, uh these gentlemen smell like Moncle Ralph.
+
+[24:44] You know what I mean? You know, that like slightly sweet, like smoke, sweet drink smoke. Yeah. New Jersey slash. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[24:56] Anyways, no one knows I'm talking about. All right. In that vein, I was looking to experiment with some wood infusions uh via uh EC rapid infusion method or steeping as a component for the liqueurs. Uh my main question is do you have any advice in general for wood flavor infusion? Uh e.g., wood format, chunks, chips, dust, spiral, spir, oh wait, uh chunks, chips, dust, and spirals don't seem good for small scale.
+
+[25:22] Um, I'm gonna hit it piece by piece because otherwise I'll go on tangents, right? So uh wood format, listen. The uh surface area of wood exposed is in any rapid, in any infusion thing, frankly, the amount of surface area exposed is like super vitally uh important. So usually the like the bigger the pieces, the slower the process, but that also means if you're gonna do something quickly, the more controllable the process, right? Also, like sometimes like a larger things can skew things um in different ways.
+
+[25:54] So for instance, like certain things might extract uh more slowly um from the center of a piece of wood, uh, but you might get more kind of uh overall total extraction of everything once the pieces are smaller because everything makes it out into the into the liquor as fast as possible. Does that make sense to us? So the size is super important. Uh I would choose for rapid infusion, I usually you want to choose a size that is uh not too too rapid because you don't want if you have like a one-minute infusion uh and then you go like 30 seconds long or 20 seconds short, it's it's ruined. Like I like it's nice to have an infusion time that's like you know, three, four minutes because then you have like a bigger window.
+
+[26:32] Also, if you make things too fine, uh it can be very difficult to um strain the stuff out fast enough, and then while you're straining it, it'll go too too much. That's like coffee is a problem with that, which is why I switched to kind of a coarser grind of coffee than I used to originally, because if your filter clogs, by the time you've gotten it through the filter, and by the way, Nest this is the one thing I hate as much as Nastasia is putting things through coffee filters. Yes, right? I mean I hate it. I hate it.
+
+[26:57] If there was one thing, there's like a couple things in my life that I'm like, you know what, I don't ever need to do that again. Putting like a bunch of crap through coffee filters, um, drywall, I hate doing drywall, I hate it. I like working with my hands, I like carpentry, drywall. You like drywall? Taking the stuff off garlic.
+
+[27:13] Oh, I hate that. I don't ever want to do that. You know what the thing is, people come to your house, right? Yeah. And they're like, hey, can I help?
+
+[27:19] Yeah, peel all this garlic. And they're like, no, no, I mean, can I help doing something that I want to do? And you're like, what the hell is this? You know what I'm saying? Yes.
+
+[27:27] Yes. You know, because also, like, you're not gonna have them cut something because they're gonna mess it up. And then here's the problem with here's the problem with this. I I'm gonna get back to your question. Don't worry.
+
+[27:36] But the problem with this is this. You come to me and you say, Can I help? And I say, Yes, cut this cucumber. And then you cut it wrong, right? Now, maybe I didn't tell you exactly how I wanted to cut, but I did tell you what I was gonna use it for, right?
+
+[27:51] Okay. So then you get mad at me because I have an obvious look of displeasure on my face. Now I haven't said anything mean to you. I haven't called you a bad person or an enemy of quality or any of these things. I just look at the cucumbers and look sad.
+
+[28:05] Do you know what I'm saying? Does that making me bad? I mean, uh, I'm getting better in my in my old age. Like, I'm like, you know what? Because here's the thing, right?
+
+[28:14] Here's the problem when you go to somebody's house and you ask them to do something. You're cutting the cucumbers up and you've mangled it, right? But once it goes out, you've completely mangled these cucumbers. You ruined them. All the pieces are all different sizes, they no longer get coated with whatever properly.
+
+[28:28] There's just a freaking nightmare. I don't know. I don't know what the hell you did to them, but you've ruined them. Now, the problem is is that when the host brings that crap out to the table, what are they gonna do? Everybody, Jocomo cut the cucumbers like a chump.
+
+[28:45] It wasn't me. You know what I mean? You can't do that. You have to suck it up and make it look like you're the idiot to cut the cucumbers that way. That's the problem.
+
+[28:52] Maybe this is why your cousins left. No, they know that I've cooked with them for like decades. They know how I want it. They know how I want that stuff. You know?
+
+[29:01] All right, Jack, are you with me? You're not with me on this. I can tell you not with me. Secretly not with me on this stuff. I'm talking to people in the chat room about browsers.
+
+[29:09] That's the beautiful thing about this new stream. It cut out for a second, and then uh everyone's like, hey, mine cut out, and the other guy's like, well, I refreshed and it worked, so then everybody can refresh. It's great. I think browser needs to be it like it's a word that needs to be said in a more highbrow fashion. Browser, right?
+
+[29:24] Doesn't it deserve to like bow that's not like Bowser? Browser sounds like Bowser from Shan Anan. Remember Shanana? Mm-hmm. Man, I'm old.
+
+[29:31] All right. Uh wood preparation, raw, toasted uh chard. Now listen, uh when you're charring like an oak barrel, for instance, let's say you're making whiskey and you're charring an oak barrel. Uh it you're getting a surface char, but then it's also extracting stuff out of uh, you know, it goes through the point all through toasting and trying to say like if you charge small pieces of wood, that's a whole hell of a lot of char. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[29:55] Yeah. Um but look it, you know, there are people who all they do all day, all night is thinking about uh different ways to toast uh wood. I mean, this is like a field of endeavor that people study like or or practice for decades and never get it right. So it's like, you know, I would I would shoot for uh something that you know you can repeat, right? So if I would first try to settle in on a size uh of wood, and then uh I would try to figure out uh kind of uh some reproducible toasting thing, which is gonna be difficult because if if the moisture content of the wood changes, your your your timing will be different, you know what I mean?
+
+[30:29] It's very hard to do it by temperature or by color because it's hard, you know. Anyways. Uh best solvent, water, alcohol, blend, and temperature. Well, duh, alcohol, but not straight alcohol, probably alcohol, alcohol and water, as we like to call it, booze. Now the higher proof that you I mean, like look, different flavors, the alcohol's gonna extract a lot faster than the water, a lot of the stuff, and so I think you know, there's an optimum, um, there's an optimum kind of extract, but I don't really know what it is.
+
+[30:55] I in general work with um pre-watered booze at like 40, 40, but you know, it depends. If you're using a higher proof stuff, you you can, but most of the stuff that we operate is somewhere between 40 and 50% alcohol. And you'd have to search uh far and wide to get a higher, but you know, you could go get this. We use this stuff called technical reserve that's made here in Brooklyn. Brooklyn.
+
+[31:17] And uh it uh it's like 95% pure and it's pretty clean, right? It doesn't smell too much like a hospital. So you can make a tincture with that. We do that sometimes, but it's like extraction. I've done ISI with straight liquor, but man, you gotta watch out because it's some super hardcore.
+
+[31:33] Uh web resources for food grade wood and infusion. I can only find uh oak chips for wine making and wood pellets for smoking. I'm assuming the woods for smoking and infusion have different safety considerations. The pellets, I wouldn't do the pellets, but like any piece of wood, like you're kidding yourself if you think that they look, don't use pressure treated woods. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:52] Like, but like I've used oak from Home Depot. But you know what I mean? Like, you know, just like yeah, you know, get the surface off of it. It's it's wood. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:02] It's like imagine uh, you know, you go to the store, you buy a cucumber, you go to the lumber yard, yeah, you buy some wood. You know what I mean? Uh I could be wrong. Someone write me in and tell me that I've just told someone to do something uh terrible. Uh are there woods that are generally safe at high extractions, assuming typical barrel oaks, uh not sure what else to use, maybe sugar, maples, birch.
+
+[32:20] People, um, I mean, there are people that have done a lot of work with uh alternate woods. Uh I I have not. Uh I would want to, I mean, it depends also on what you believe, right? So there are woods, tropical woods that are toxic, but in general, like a woodworker would know that. The other question is is like once you start doing infusions, like you could go get um sassafras uh wood, for instance, right?
+
+[32:43] But it contains saffron. So you may believe that saffrol is well, the the United States government believes that it's a carcinogen and won't let you put it into food. You may believe that it's not a problem. In which case you could use it. I don't believe it's a problem.
+
+[32:57] I use it. It's traditional. You know what I mean? But what ev. Anyway.
+
+[33:00] Uh woods that should be uh widely avoided due to high risks, even at low extractions. I mean, the good thing is, like I say, stay away. I would stay away from any sort of like weird tropical toxic wood that you don't know what it is. Stay away from any sort of uh any sort of um pressure treated or any sort of treated wood whatsoever. Any wood that's ever been painted, any wood that's ever been shellacked, any wood that's ever been finished at all under any circumstances, stay away from.
+
+[33:26] I would also say that like a lot of pines uh will probably not be a hundred percent pleasant on an extraction basis, whereas like some of their resins uh are good, but I don't know that they'd be good from a wood extraction standpoint. Yeah? Yeah, good. Anyway. Um second related question are you aware of common herbs and spices that become dangerous under high extractions?
+
+[33:46] Nutmeg, for instance, uh could become uh psychotropic and toxic, though I doubt it would be palatable at that level. It really is people have to hide it. They mix in with I think peanut butter. Fishbone did a whole uh song and maybe even a whole section of an album on uh trying to trip off of nutmeg. You ever done that, Jack?
+
+[34:02] Or do you know anyone that's ever done that? No, no, whose name might be Backy Bolecules. Like uh like I haven't. Uh you know, I'll tell you if I did. Oh, the thing about nutmeg is right, I mean, like nutmeg highs are for like uh like 14-year-olds who like are interested in trying something but don't have a source.
+
+[34:20] You know what I mean? So they go into the pantry and they pound like you know, nutmegs. No, you should never do this. This is not smart because the actual thing about nutmeg is uh from what I've read is that the um first of all, it's terrible in large quantities. Uh uh secondly, uh I believe that the um dose line between psychotropic and toxic is very is not very big.
+
+[34:46] So I don't I don't think it's necessarily a safe thing to OD on. You know what I mean? But uh like I said, if you want to go look up uh herbs and their effects, there is a whole community. Um it's I I haven't been to it in a long time, but it's called like Arrowwit or the Vault. It's a place where I used to go to get information on extracting stuff from the drug site.
+
+[35:05] Yeah, but those people are fantastic because they've tested every freaking thing. You know what I mean? Like they're like, how do you get the most uh, you know, uh uh, well, they're interested in psychotropic principles, but how do you get the most stuff out of XYZ herb? And so all these knuckleheads have tried all these uh solvents. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:22] So most of them not food grade. And then um, and you know, they've tried anything that anyone has ever said has a psychotropic effect, they have uh pounded it. Rue is one you should probably also stay away from. Uh not for psychotropic things, but there's lots of things. I would get an herbal guide.
+
+[35:37] Uh plenty of those things have uh toxicity levels, and in general, I man, this list is crazy on the site. Of what? Mint, garlic, ginger. I'm telling you, man. Yeah, it's crazy.
+
+[35:47] These guys are like, like, there are people who what they do is they sit down in the morning when they get up and they're like, what have I not tried to eat in large enough quantities to mess my brain up and will it do anything? And then they report on it. I mean, I think it's a great public service. I don't know. What do you think, Jack?
+
+[36:05] Yeah, I support it. Yeah, yeah. Uh anyways. Uh also obviously, like um uh spices that are toxic in super high doses, like uh Thujone is toxic in super high doses, and it's very prevalent in like sage extracts. I wouldn't pound sage extract.
+
+[36:21] I wouldn't pound clove oil extract. It's an anesthetic. There can be other, you know, there's so things that are high in thujone, things that are high in uh usinol, there's there's all sorts of things. These things aren't meant to be eaten in super high quantities. And in fact, uh one of the things that you know we were uh coming across, we didn't make it into the uh exhibition that the museum is doing, but um, you know, most of these uh things are toxic or at least irritants or noxious in super high quantities.
+
+[36:44] So if you want to see what it's like for an insect, the reason insects don't eat mint, take a like a quarter teaspoon of pure mint oil and put that sucker in your mouth. You you did that with me, right, Stas? It is freaking ban banana lamas. Anyway, what? Wait, we're over?
+
+[37:03] It's one. Uh all right. Well, sorry about the whole uh streets of Philadelphia issue. Uh I've got propane questions to get to. I've got Wagyu beef.
+
+[37:13] Listen, Wagyu beef. Uh who wrote that in? Who wrote that in? Kevin from Los Gatos. I'll answer you more in depth, but listen, you already have the beef, so I have to answer you quickly right now.
+
+[37:21] Listen, listen, listen. The reason you need he had a he's by the way, people, what he's doing is he's aging a uh he's aging a big what does he got? He's got a wagyu, but what does he got? He's got uh a seven rib uh A5 Wagyu beef roast. He wants to dry age it for 30 days, and his fridge that he has it in uh is running at 55, 50 to 55% relative humidity.
+
+[37:40] And he's wondering does he really needed to get up to 70 or 80 because he doesn't he's doesn't he's like I don't care if it if I lose a little more moisture because that's um just more flavor, right? No, no, no, no. Get the moisture up. Listen, you're gonna case harden. That's what you're worried about.
+
+[37:53] If you go that low on your moisture, you're apt to case harden the outside of the meat, which is not what you want for proper aging. So take a salt pan, old school, take a pan, saturated salt solution, put extra crystals in the bottom. It should be able to maintain about 80, I think. Someone go look it up for me, tweet it back on out. We'll get you next week on the cooking issues.
+
+[38:15] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a five oh one C three nonprofit.
+
+[38:41] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] It's time. Today's program is brought to you by Micter's Distillery. Visit Micters dot com to find out how their taste is everything. Cost be damned. Attitude is creating some of the finest whiskies available.
+
+[0:13] I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network dot org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from Bushwick, Brooklyn How you doing?
+
+[0:42] Oh, I'm on the super reverb. The lady who's eating lunch outside is like, what the what the heck? Check, please. What? Check.
+
+[0:49] Can I can I move? Can I move? She actually just got her check. It's fine. Okay.
+
+[0:52] Uh yeah, yeah. Uh well, welcome to the show. Calling all your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718 497 2128. Here for the next 45 minutes or so, right, Jack?
+
+[1:05] Yeah. Uh which speaking of, we have uh Jack Insley, our uh intrepid engineer over there in the booth. One of the listeners referred to him as J Maul, which is his new Star Wars name. Jim God. J Maul.
+
+[1:18] J Maul. You need to have like one of those double sided, like uh you need to get you some like face paint. You could be like like Kiss almost, so that's not a c do you like that kind of music? Do you listen to like kiss? No.
+
+[1:27] You don't like to rock and roll all night? I like rock. Do you like to party every day? No. No.
+
+[1:33] Not every day, no. That's why. That's why you couldn't hang with him because party every single day. Not just not just some days. I couldn't get into the the I could never take them seriously with uh makeup and the theatrics and all that.
+
+[1:46] Yeah? Now well, you know, I hear that they're with the exception of Gene Simmons, I hear that they're a nice fellas. Yeah, Gene Simmons is horrible, dude. Yeah, that's what I hear. So I hear.
+
+[1:55] Yeah. Yeah. Uh and uh got Staz, the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[2:00] Yeah? Yes. Any anything special happening? You're giving a talk at Yale on Thursday. I am, that's true.
+
+[1:59] Is it open to the public? I don't know. We could look it up. I'm supposed to have uh figured out what I'm gonna serve people and I haven't figured it out yet. But if you're in the Well, we don't know.
+
+[2:15] If you're in well, I know where it is. They the like the event that I'm going to is at a place in New Haven called Bar. Right. It's called Bar. That's what they're doing.
+
+[2:26] Bar has been there for over 25 years. And the reason I know this is because that's where I wooed my wife. Jen. That's where, like, on they used to have something called alternative Did I already talk about this on the show? They used to have something called Alternative Wednesdays, right?
+
+[2:40] So Alternative Wednesdays was when they because back then it was like pre, you know, pre when people like listen to stuff. It was like industrial rave stuff. You familiar with the band LA Style? Jack, you familiar with the old kind of uh industrial housey. He's on the phone.
+
+[2:56] It's uh their big song was James Brown is dead. Of course he was not dead at that time, but yet that was a song we listened to. So that's how I that's how I was able to uh land my wife, which is uh which is nice. So anyway, I'll be there again on Thursday. And we also have in the studio his new special guest, uh our new Booker and Dax Sears All customer service representative.
+
+[3:17] Social media too. Big big social media. Social so unlike Nastasia and myself, anti social media, which by the way, like I know I have a million like Twitter things. I've been my head has been so buried because I'm working on this MoFad exhibit that's opening up in a couple of weeks and on my next uh Booker and Dax project that I've been buried. I haven't been getting I get like once a week I look at my Twitter.
+
+[3:35] So if I haven't answered you, I will answer you soon. But uh I like to introduce uh Rebecca. Give us your whole life in twenty seconds or less. My whole life? Twenty seconds to less.
+
+[3:43] Whole life. Into the mic, please. What do you got? Um hello everybody. My whole life.
+
+[3:48] Yeah. I'm 22. I like the color orange and ice cream. Wow. Orange is nice.
+
+[3:54] That was under 20 seconds. She did it. Yeah, she I gave her less than one second for every year of her life. I'm glad that you like uh ice cream. Where are you from?
+
+[4:02] Um outside of Philly. Outside of Philly. Oh, okay. So do do you like uh okay. So in your 22, so but by the time that you probably remember most things, Briars had already changed their recipe to include all sorts of stabilizers.
+
+[4:15] Do you remember back when Briars did not have stabilizers? I don't Briars is not my favorite, so I don't know. Well, yeah, but you're from Philly. It has to you have to like technically not from Philly, but where you well, where are you originally originally Long Island, but I've also lived in two other states. So do you believe that it's uh do you believe it's Strong Island or the Wrong Island, so I can figure out where you're from.
+
+[4:42] I'm gonna go in the middle. You're gonna go in the middle? Yeah, I was too little too little to the wrong Oh. Stas likes it. Stas believes in the strong island.
+
+[4:51] You like that you like going over there to the beach and all that stuff. Uh uh. Well, I don't. Really? Yeah.
+
+[4:56] I don't. What do you man. I have to sometimes. Oh I'm a poor stuff, has to go to the beach. No, no, it's never for fun.
+
+[5:03] It has not been for fun once. Wow. Wow. Hey, two things. So I have a caller that uh that I want to get to, but before we do that, I have to send a big big big shout out to John Nahol.
+
+[5:15] I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And of course our old friend Joel Esposito both listened to the drop and made donations and specified that it came from cooking issues. So they are the coolest people of the day. Thank you. Please please specify so that Jack knows, you know, kind of what's going.
+
+[5:31] Also, after we spoke to the talk to the caller, Micters, huh? We got Micters on board? We got Micters, yeah. They've been they've been around. This is their first cooking issues episode.
+
+[5:39] Oh, alright. So, you know, I like their product, but they apparently don't like ours well enough. Alright, whatever. Well, now they do. Alright.
+
+[5:45] Here they are. Alright. Molecular whatever as our sponsor. Okay, listen. Hey, enough enough of that stuff.
+
+[5:53] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? Doing all right. This is Chris from the Green Zone in DC. How you doing?
+
+[5:59] How's uh how's it how's how's everything going? How was that recipe with the mint working out? Was it our is it everything more? It's not summer anymore, and uh the entire summer run I just wanted it to order because I couldn't find a solution. Yeah.
+
+[6:10] Yeah, mint's tough. Mint oxidizes so quickly. Um since most of what I do involves infusions, and of course I'm doing iSy infusions. Um one of the things I'm trying to infuse is some sticky resins like mastic tears or frankincense tears. And when I tried one of them in the ISI, it gunks up the entire iSy.
+
+[6:30] Like, you know, I did two it was a um half liter two uh nitrous cartridges, and the entire inside of the iSC was like coated in this sticky residue, and then it m it messed up my strainer, it messed up a bar spoon, and just everything was coated in this like really impermeable stuff. Um and then I tried doing another one, just a standard infusions in a jar, and that was a bit better, but again, like everything it touches just gets this coating on it. Um I was wondering if you had first of all, if you knew what solvent for that would be, other because I've tried everything from pure alcohol to vinegar and nothing worked. Um and also a good way to infuse it that doesn't just gunk up all my equipment. You know, it this is crazy.
+
+[7:14] I have another question in from George who we met on uh Mastika. Like it must be like in the in the in the mental air. Uh and that stuff that stuff is some sticky, some super sticky once you start using it. I mean, uh I used to make uh oil and even just a couple of tears uh would stick to the bottom of the pan forever and took a long time to fully dissolve into the oil, and there's always like some sort of residue left. It's just a nightmare.
+
+[7:39] And I was thinking about it for George's problem too. He was he was trying to make uh he wants to make the the water, the mastica water, which I don't know if if you if if anyone's been back to Greece recently, they now have uh this like basically seltzer water with uh Mastica flavor in it, which actually I think is I like it a lot. I think it's really refreshing. Nastasi didn't like it so much. I pounded it like, but I love that resin flavor anyway, Mastika.
+
+[8:00] The flavor's great yeah, I love it anyway. Um and so, you know, his problem was how to how to dissolve it, but not in an E C because you can't get to an E C and neither can you throw it away. Like my solution for him was gonna be like, let's throw it away. You know, like like put it put it he he wanted to do a distillation, right? So what I what I was gonna tell him, and I'll give maybe I'll read his question later if I have time, but what I was gonna tell him to do was um he he was looking to either do uh an infusion into alcohol and then uh or oil and then try to suspend it, right?
+
+[8:30] In which case it's gonna go cloudy. It's not gonna be like the oh, you we lost uh I'll keep talking. It's it's gonna be cloudy, it's not gonna be uh you know, clear. So for for that application, if you were gonna use an extract, that's gonna go cloudy. Can you can you can you go back a bit?
+
+[8:44] Oh yeah. Sure. So I'll say for George, he had a slightly different problem. He was looking to make a uh he he wants to make the the water, right? And so he he he had a couple of different things.
+
+[8:54] One, he was looking at distillation, not at infusion, uh, and also just at using like Mastika extracts. Now his problem with the mastica extract is is that it was clouding up, right? Uh I mean, sorry, not cloud, flo floating to the top uh and not not staying in. So one thing you can do, obviously, with I'll just answer both of your questions at the same time. One thing you can do is is just uh keep shaking it, and over time you'll get some transfer and then skim the stuff off the top, but it's gonna be fairly light, you know, flavor wise.
+
+[9:23] Another thing you can do for that is you can uh stabilize that with gum arabic into uh into a syrup. You can stabilize the stuff with gum arabic. Once you stabilize it with the gum arabic, you then should be able to make a soda with it. Uh it will separate over time, but you'll be able to shake it back in, right? So that you'll be able to do.
+
+[9:41] So you try that. Um that's how they do it. Now, unless you use uh uh an oil stabilizer that's weighted, you're not gonna be able to get it to stay in 100% in a carbonated beverage without having it separate over time, but again, you can just shake it back in. So gum and good the reason you use gum arabic is that gum arabic has very low viscosity uh and dilutes well without break without having uh emulsions uh break. So it's it it is used for soda syrups to stabilize things into soda stirrups, but it's not gonna help with stability over time because it's not gonna change the weight of the particles, so you'll still get some separation anyway.
+
+[10:15] Uh but uh then he was saying, George was saying, I want to distill the stuff, but then it sticks to everything in the pot. So I was gonna say to just do a test, do an old style, like real uh cheap distillation, get a pot, put a strainer in the pot, line that strainer with something you can throw away, like linen cloth or like a a napkin or or you know, some sort of paper filter, something that's not gonna be something you don't mind losing. Stick the uh the uh mastica in that, the kiosk mystica in that, and then put the lid on top, put water in the bottom, boil it, just boil that boil the you know crap out of it, and then just keep putting ice cubes on the top of the lid so that you form a reflux system where it keeps on uh where it keeps on refluxing. And I think it'll work, but I have to have someone try it to make sure that it would work. Now, on your thing with the EC, maybe we could do a similar kind of a situation.
+
+[11:06] I don't think the melted crap will go through a tea satchel. So if you were to buy uh like and maybe double bag some tea satchels, not the you know the tea satchel styles that are like plasticky with kind of big holes? I wouldn't use that. I'd use kind of the more papery ones with the small holes. Stick the stuff in and do the ISI.
+
+[11:25] You should be able to extract it and the melted goop, I don't think is gonna make it through the uh the tea bags. But I could be wrong. So I I mean I could be wrong. So I would test it uh and see whether or not uh that uh works out for you. By the way, George, that that you know, that same technique using an ISI might be good for flavor as well.
+
+[11:44] So I knocked out two Mastikas with one stone. It's good. So Rebecca, what are your favorite kind of ice creams? We were talking about Briars. Briar's obviously Philadelphia style, famously no no eggs, right?
+
+[11:54] So do you like a Philadelphia style? You just you don't even consider yourself Philadelphia. I shouldn't even talk to you about Philadelphia ice cream. So what kind of ice cream do you like? Are you one of these hyper dense, like super rich, like French style, like gelato stuff?
+
+[12:04] Anything chocolate? No. I like hard ice cream. Like hard ice cream? The other day I tried what was it called?
+
+[12:12] Famous, famous ice cream in Brooklyn. The last it's like something hills. Hills, hills? I don't know. Now you have to when you say hills, I say hills alive in the sound of music.
+
+[12:22] Did you go to Oddfellows? No. You should go to Oddfellows. I will try it now. Sam Mason's Sam Mason's right.
+
+[12:26] There was a beautiful salted caramel with salted caramel in in it. I would hope that the salted caramel contains salted caramel in the colour. Well, no, sometimes it's just the flavor, you know? Yeah. This was a a good one.
+
+[12:39] All right. So I've got a collar, but I have I have a pretty hilarious comment I've got to share before that. Alrighty. Got a comment here in the chat room. Right.
+
+[12:48] Man, cooking issues is just a sideshow compared to this chat. Wow. Dave might be out of work soon. Wow. Well, I like being a sideshow.
+
+[12:57] That's I've been I've been called a side show like my whole life. Right, Sas? Yeah. So usually though, I'm not a sideshow like I'm a side show freak. Is more like what people call me, a side show freak.
+
+[13:09] Huh. So they're having a lively chatter. By the way It's a very lively chat. You can remember. We're talking about croissants, you know, um all kinds of stuff.
+
+[13:15] Stas doesn't like croissants. That's why I never can talk about them. I think they're delicious. What are they saying about the croissant? Well they ask uh they're they're asking like, hey, what's everybody eating?
+
+[13:24] So I said, I'm having a croissant. And they started talking about croissants. You know what's an absurd word? Chris Sandwich. Makes no sense.
+
+[13:30] That's a ridiculous word. And what about those donuts that are also Cronuts? I happen to know the fellow that makes the Cronuts. What are you what are your feelings on them? Um I would rather have one or the other.
+
+[13:42] Yeah, I'm with you. Wow. Hater on Hater on the Hater on the Cronut. It's called Ample Hills, the ice cream. Ample Hills.
+
+[13:48] Oh yeah, that stuff's good. It's amazing. Yeah. Alright, well go check out my man Sam Mason's Oddfellows, too. If you're an ice cream fan and you're in the Brooklyn, Greater Brooklyn area.
+
+[13:56] I have to try it. You you must. You're uh you're obliged. Okay. Um wait, we have a caller you said?
+
+[14:02] I do have a caller. Alright, collar, you're on the air. Hi too. Nastasha Dave, Jack, and Rebecca. Uh I might have something for you, Dave.
+
+[14:10] Uh we have a medium-sized liquid amber in the yard. Uh and if I'm able to procure some sweet gum without murdering the tree, I'd be happy to send you the good. Any ideas on how and when I might harvest uh the resin all right so we're talking about uh sweet gum trees uh liquid embarrass styra sty how do you pronounce that styracophula styracca what is it styracca I don't remember sure yeah anyway so sweet gum trees uh which by the way I found out you can grow in the my place in Connecticut but they just don't grow there naturally uh they have a uh right that's what we're talking about here sweet gums and they have a resin in them that is supposedly sweet that can be harvested and was harvested by Native Americans. I have no idea how to do it. I don't think it runs as freely as like uh a syrup.
+
+[14:54] I don't think it saps out that same way. I think you have to do it like you would for uh like other resin style things where you make a uh like a um uh a vertical remember if you're ever gonna wound a tree like that to get the resin you want to go vertical because you don't want to in any way uh girdle the tree you know what I mean um and would you go off of a side branch? Oh or do you need to go off the main track. Oh well I never thought of it. Most people who are gonna like uh you know take things off of trees end up going off of the trunk.
+
+[15:25] I had never thought of doing a branch. I don't know how they do I don't know how they harvest uh um you know gum acacia from acacia trees. I should go take a look at some pictures and see how they do it. Acacia trees I think are relatively small uh uh you know in in relation to a sweet gum which is I I consider that for this neighborhood like a mid-sized tree you know what I mean? So, huh?
+
+[15:49] I don't know. But I I mean I'm gonna look at some pictures and maybe uh talk about the next time up. I'll encourage you to look at some pictures too but I I think it's gonna be a uh a wound and wait uh kind of a situation, and I don't know what the difference in flavor would be between, let's say spring because I haven't researched in a long time between let's say like uh uh like an early spring like first uh resin versus a later, but I I'm pretty sure the last time I read there was a definite time that is best to do it. But I'm gonna look into it and we'll we'll uh you know I because I I want to try this stuff. Let me just put it this way I want to try this stuff.
+
+[16:23] Right. Is there anything else I need to do to confirm that it's the right species that has the five-pointed leaves, drops the uh monkey balls. That's it. You're good. I'm on the west coast.
+
+[16:34] I'm in Southern California. Uh so you know, this wouldn't be a native tree here. Right, yeah. Right. Any problem there?
+
+[16:41] No. I mean, I mean, it's it's probably, you know, I I think this the sweet gum is like from like my area here in New York on south. So it doesn't like uh it doesn't like it to be like hyper cold, you know what I mean? It's so it's not like an extreme northern tree. So I think it should do fine uh you know out you know where you are.
+
+[17:00] Um I don't know, I don't know how it is um with uh drought tolerance or anything like that, but you know, if if the tree looks good, it's gonna it's gonna be good. And there's no other species I know of that looks like a sweet gum other than the sweet gum. In fact, in fact, this kid, I was so upset. This kid was at a county fair. Did I mention this on the show?
+
+[17:22] County fair up in Connecticut, and he won some sort of freaking prize for his collection. Now he is a kid, so like Nastasi would cut in some slack, not me. And he puts a sweet gum ball in his collection of plant seeds and writes sycamore. Well, what the hell? They don't eh, you know, uh, they're spherical, right?
+
+[17:42] So, like, you know, a sweet gum ball looks like a uh a sycamore ball in the way that a basketball is very similar to a kush. You know what I mean? It's like they're not, they're not Did you crack him? Well, he wasn't there. I was just like, you know, if I if I was the judge, I would have been like, goodbye, kid.
+
+[18:02] You know, learn some precision. And then I would have written a note. I would have said, not sycamore. Sweetgum. Smiley face.
+
+[18:09] Smiley face. You know, or you know, look, it's probably not the kid. The kid, I'm sure what happened. Okay, I feel bad. I'm sure the kid went to one of his parents and was like, hey, Ma, hey Dad, what is this?
+
+[18:20] And they were like, that's a sycamore. And so like he was just like, you know, he believed them. So maybe he should just go smack his parents in the face. But I'm not advocating smacking your parents in the face. I'm just saying know your sweet gums.
+
+[18:32] But let me know. I'm gonna look into it and maybe I'll if I can remember, I'll talk about what I've learned and then call back and tell us if you were able to harvest anything. Can I hear with a couple of just brief questions for myself? I have a quinine sulfate source from Chem Sabers. Okay.
+
+[18:46] But I'm wondering if you would serve this to your family. Quinine sulfate? I serve it to my family constantly. Well, but this from the source, it's uh 99% titrates. In humans.
+
+[19:00] But it does say it meets it meets USC USP specifications. Uh I could give you like the certificate of analogy. Yeah, I wonder if they said it's USP re okay. Listen, remember this. Remember, all the quinine you buy is actually from quinine bark.
+
+[19:18] I mean a kinchona bark, okay? Right. It's not synthesized. So it's not like it's made out of some crazy like, you know, like conglomerate of poison, although it itself is poison. But like the uh so you have that going for you.
+
+[19:35] Now the the issue is is whether or not it's been certified for food or for uh drug by the way drug uh how can say not certified for drugs but it it has a USP so it's good for pharmacopia. Uh is there like a just a more expensive process to go through FDA to get the actual safe. I mean the real stuff's not that expensive. In other words shweps isn't paying the prices that we're paying to get this stuff. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[20:01] Right. Um shwips. But the um so I look uh if it's USP I feel pretty safe, especially considering the small amounts that you're using. The risk is is that they if they stored it in a an area that's contaminated with stuff that is otherwise nasty. But what do they say that the other like half a percent of point is uh so we've got purity by HPLC uh 99 to 101%.
+
+[20:30] Uh and it says yeah water four to five percent uh heavy metals point zero zero one percent insoluble matter point one percent I mean look it says that organic volatil impurities pass the test if it says USP I would use it. I like I I I don't want to make your decision for you, but if it said USP I would use it. Okay. Well I'll I'll try it on myself and I know that can be the one that suffers. Right.
+
+[21:00] But again, if it is a heavy metal thing, right, you won't know that I've shafted you for another couple of decades. But hey. Right. By then maybe they will have fixed that. I'll call back then.
+
+[21:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like and then along with I'm gonna be carbonating that, uh, do you see any problem with leaving a CO two tank on? Any problem with the regulator or it's just under my sink, a ten pound tank, and it's a pain to go in there and twist the thing off. Is there any potential? No, I leave mine on all uh a hundred percent of the time that there yeah, there are potentials for problems, right?
+
+[21:29] If you're if your hose bursts, it'll dump the entire ten pound tank into your into your kitchen. Um but like you know, what I would do is is a lot of people who sell uh kind of homebrew stuff, they tend to sell this kind of very flexible hose that comes off of the tank. Okay? Right. And uh I hate it.
+
+[21:46] I really freaking hate it. That like unreinforced hose is the worst. And I've seen that stuff burst. So I would invest in the real like uh it's like double wall. There's an inner tube, then there's like uh there's like a uh um like a fiberglass reinforcing and then an outer, and the inner line is I think polyethylene, and it's this completely reinforced like beverage line, and I have never once ever, ever seen one rupture.
+
+[22:12] I've seen one be abused so horribly that it did generate a pinhole leak, but I've never seen and that was real abuse, but I've never seen one spru like rupture ever in service. Right. And if you get the real uh Odicker ear clamps that are really cheap that are meant for that size tubing that you're using and clamp it down, it it would take a force of nature to cut that thing uh open. Uh and uh so I wouldn't I wouldn't worry uh worry about that because that's what people do a hundred percent of the time in bars. They hook the tank up to their to their carbonator and then that's it.
+
+[22:45] You know what I mean? Okay. Um but don't do it with the crappy hose though, alright? Okay. Uh for a friend, what would your thoughts, time and temp before cooking?
+
+[22:55] Uh Nastasaja might want to plug her ears. Uh cooking a human placenta. Oh, Jesus. I don't think Dave likes that either. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[23:03] I can't give I can't imagine what happened if I gave a recommendation on the air. Jack, what are your we're getting I'm getting even Rebecca who I don't know, this is literally the first time I met her, has a anastasia style face on. Jack, what are your thoughts on this? Uh I say go for it. I don't have no idea.
+
+[23:19] Ask a doctor. So listen, doctors famously don't know how to cook anything. Like, not I mean plenty of doctors know how to cook things, but it's not part of their purview. But doctors will always a doctor will give you a food safety recommendation. Right.
+
+[23:32] I don't know. They'll say boil the heck up. What? Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know that I want to go on record with uh with a placenta recipe.
+
+[23:39] I think it just might be one of those things that comes back and bites me in the behind. You know what I mean? And thanks for your call. I understand. Yeah.
+
+[23:44] All right. Let us know what happens with the liquid M bar. Thanks so much. All right. Yeah.
+
+[23:49] Let me tell you though. What? One question. One question. One question.
+
+[23:53] Even if Jack tells you, hey, just one question. Hey, don't come on the air and hey, listen, listen, listen. Oh, but no, but he's doing us a favor. He's going to get us a liquid M bar. Here's one thing though.
+
+[24:01] On the chat room, why don't you guys go to town? Those of you who don't mind, go to town on uh on your uh placenta recommendations. Am I right, Dad? Yeah. Send go go crazy.
+
+[24:11] Relegate me to the side show. You know? I'll be the side show and you can be the freak if you're putting you know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying. Okay.
+
+[24:18] I mean rip so rip through some questions because I don't want to miss them. Uh got a question in, I don't know who it's from. Uh on Lardo. I recently cured Lardo that is now uh hanging in the walk in. It was just now that I realized I accidentally used insecure number one instead of instacure number two.
+
+[24:33] What we're talking about, Lardo is basically cured uh uh back fat delicious. Do you like Lardo? Mm-hmm. Wow, finally, something. Uh uh and um the recipe that this person is using um calls for curing salt.
+
+[24:44] So curing salt is salt plus either uh sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate. Uh now if you're doing a long cured product like uh like a like a ham or in this case a lardo, if you're gonna specify curing salt, you would typically specify uh the one that has nitrate in it, right? So uh instead of because nitrate is longer lasting, longer acting, and it takes a long time for the curing salt to make it to the middle of a of a big cut like this, and if it doesn't make it to the middle before it's converted, then you don't have any curing power. Capish? Gotcha.
+
+[25:14] Okay. So uh uh he or she used the wrong one uh and is wondering whether they're you know they're gonna kill everybody. Uh the answer is the answer is I would feel 100% okay with this because uh first of all, remember um a lot of people when they would traditionally curing Lardo, they're not using a curing salt anyway, they're just using regular salt. Secondly, uh it's a it's a whole cut, so if it hasn't been punctured, there's nothing going on in the middle anyway, so it's not like a salami, what where you know, like the actual, you know, the word botulism comes from the word for sausage in Latin because you know you take stuff, you mix it up, it's contaminated in the middle, you uh you exclude the air, and it's botulism time. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:52] If you if you don't so first of all, you you're gonna have a high salt level, which is gonna inhibit the botulism. You're dealing with a whole muscle cut. And here's the here's the kicker. Unlike muscle meat, um, there is not as much water in back fat by a long shot. So it doesn't take as much to get the water activity of back fat very low.
+
+[26:10] And if the water activity of the back fat's very low, there's gonna be no botulism growing. Uh and so I think you're aided by so although I looked up on the net uh on the way over here that like the f super fresh back fat unchilled has a uh fairly high water activity, like nine nine one or something like this. If you and it just said uh dried, I think salt didn't dried or smoked or something like this without no curing, had a water activity down like point s point seven something. And so in other words, ain't nothing. Ain't nothing growing in in that's in that son of a gun.
+
+[26:40] So I would I would feel uh I would feel confident. I would say confident. What do you think, Stuz? Yeah. Peter I wanted you to mention to uh people to buy tickets.
+
+[26:48] Oh, why don't you mention it since you're gonna be able to do it? Buy tickets to their new exhibit at tickets.mofad.org. Wow, that was a sale, Stuz. That was a friggin' I'm sold. Wow, I'm gonna go right on that damn website.
+
+[27:01] Hey, I'm gonna be there too. Yeah, Jack's gonna be there. Jackie Molecules, J Maul. I'm doing sound. Sound, okay.
+
+[27:06] Hey, I got some uh I have caller, right? And I also I have to read some of this stuff that's coming into the chat room. Um y you you opened up the rabbit hole here. Elliot says three hours at seventy-six point three degrees Celsius, then Sears all. And then uh someone else said you forgot to pre-sear the placenta.
+
+[27:25] Wow. Someone else said soup dumpling placenta. Oh. Yeah, so that's happening. Uh and there's a caller on the line.
+
+[27:33] Caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, how's it going? It's uh John from New Haven here. Um just got my uh my MoFad tickets yesterday. I actually can't wait for these, but I'm really looking forward to that.
+
+[27:44] Nice. See, that's a sale. Oh, yes, go ahead. I've been interested in making some on my own, and I'm looking at the series seeds website and they say to either do it in a dehydrator or an oven for at 130 for like two to three weeks. Yep.
+
+[27:59] And that's a really long time to tie up my oven. I don't have a dehydrator, but I do have a circulator, and I was wondering if I could do uh the garlic in a ziploc bag for like two or three weeks in there. That should work. I don't see why it won't. Another uh option if you're really interested, is I know people have done um slightly higher temperatures they've used to keep warm in a rice cooker and just let it let it rock in the rice cooker and it's actually faster because the temperature's somewhat elevated but it's not high enough to uh like you know cook it cook it out or anything like this and so I know um I know a bunch of people who do I think it was uh it was Johnny Hunter I think who was telling us about like the rice cooker uh stuff and that you could do it at a higher temperature than what is recommended and and it still works and works faster.
+
+[28:41] It has a slightly different flavor obviously but it works and works faster. So the rice cooker um yeah basically anything that you can control you know uh like dehydrators you know you can get like a you don't remember if you're doing a dehydrator you need to seal it so it stays moist right you know yeah um you know you could also just get uh like a like a um uh an electric thing uh electric blend you know oh what's a flexible electric heater there may have and stick it to the outside of a jar with a thermocouple in between that and the jar and put it on one of these thirty dollar p IDs you could be you could be out of the woods with a with a temperature controlled curing chamber for probably under 70 bucks uh you know because you don't need hyperaccuracy you just need it to stay relatively the same temperature and and be and be sealed. You know what I mean? And so you you could do that without like see once you have the circulator you have the water running all the time you have that noise in your kitchen for two weeks you're running that thing and yeah blah blah blah blah. Like if you do this it's like you know very uh you can insulate it so that you're not like throwing off energy into the atmosphere, and you can make something kind of fairly uh efficient uh that way, probably for pretty cheap.
+
+[29:55] Okay. And then just real quick to go back to the circulator again. I wouldn't be running any like food-borne illness risk or anything like that if it stealed away for that long, or would the time and temp you know they kill everything. What t what temperature are you gonna use? Um I mean ideally around the 130, 140.
+
+[30:11] Oh, yeah. If you're running it like uh what's 140? What's that in Celsius? Uh 55. Oh, yeah, so then that should be fine.
+
+[30:18] Yeah, you're fine. You can you can run it from now until we all keel over dead and you'll be good. We won't queue over from the from the microbes. We'll kill over from being dead. Great.
+
+[30:26] All right, perfect. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. All right, good luck. That's how to ask a question and and get out though.
+
+[30:32] See? The one question. Yeah, I appreciate that. You're gonna hit it. Hit it and quit it.
+
+[30:36] Anyway, uh, we'll take a quick break and come back with some more questions on the cooking issues. It's not as good as the show you were just listening to, is it? Give us a few bucks. Help keep us running. HeritageRadio Network.org.
+
+[31:30] Click the donate tab on the top right corner. You don't uh you don't like the silence? You think that you you you think people actually prefer to listen to the show rather than the silence? I don't mind silence, but I'm I'm guessing they like you better. Now now now you have sounds of silence going through my head.
+
+[31:48] Yeah, well, Saz and I have this thing where we were cooking turkeys, and when I was boning the turkey, I was singing Wakalote, my old friend. And so now whenever I have sounds of silence going through my head, I have Wakalote, my old friend. You know what I mean? And I'm sitting there, I can go back to like boning this turkey out. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:06] Nice. I've never had a real honest to God freaking Wakalote. I need to, right? You know what I mean? These like weak, these weak commercial tabos.
+
+[32:13] Although the ones at Heritage Cells, right, they're pretty close to a wild turkey, but they're still raised, right? I mean, they're but they're fairly close. So can I say that if you're pretty wild? Oh. So if I could say if I say if I've had the Heritage turkeys, would you say that like I've had the taste of true Wacalote?
+
+[32:29] I don't know. I want to hear Steve Jenkins say it. Yeah. You gotta you gotta shoot him in the face to save him. Actually, you know, that's true with a turkey.
+
+[32:37] That's why one of the things I want to go hunting for is uh is turkey. I'm not my wife will not let me get a freaking first of all, you would okay. Look, my wife won't let me have like a gun in that. I'm working on air rifles. I told this on the air, but you can't use air rifles to kill turkeys in Connecticut.
+
+[32:51] But the good thing about shooting turkeys is it's headshot or nothing. So it's kill or miss. There's no wounding. Kill or miss. What if you miss the head?
+
+[32:59] Well, you have to miss so bad. It's got this long neck. I'm just saying. So what I'm saying is you're shooting for the head. It's attached to a long neck.
+
+[33:06] So it's not like you know, if you're trying to get a heart shot and you hit it in the butt and it's running around. The odds are you either kill it dead or or you miss it entirely. Seems to me that this is a good mode of hunting. Plus, they're hard. So it's like, you know, I don't know, right?
+
+[33:19] I mean, if you're gonna go hunting, it seems to me that like what you don't want to do is be an inexperienced hunter, go out there and just wing a bunch of birds, and then they're like flying around in pain for whatever because you missed. You know what I mean? Jack, you're not with me on this? Yeah. I got a caller.
+
+[33:29] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, my name's David from uh the Seattle area. And uh I was wondering if you'd ever thought about or ever made a carbonated granita. Um I was thinking about doing it with like a block of dry ice or um liquid nitrogen with just some soda or something like that. Yeah, funny story.
+
+[33:56] So uh Sam Mason, I think it was Sam Mason, I think it was Sam Mason, was interested in uh carbonated uh grenades years and years and years ago. This is like maybe like like 2006 or 2005. I think it was Sam. Came over to uh the FCI where I was working, and he was like, hey, can we carbonate uh can we carbonate um you know sorbet and whatnot in the in the tailor? We had a tailor at the school because the Carpagani was I didn't have access to the carpajani, so I had to tailor.
+
+[34:24] And he was like, hey, can can we do it? I'm like, I don't know, let's find out. So we tried to like plug all the holes in the tailor and like pressurize it with CO2 while it was running, and I blew the gaskets out and we sprayed sorbet mix over the entire freaking kitchen. Sorbit mix everywhere. And the the the short answer is is that you can carbonate anything, but then you can't you can carbonate uh a granita as long as you never uh harden it, right?
+
+[34:53] Because the carbonation can only live in the liquid phase. As soon as it's frozen solid, then or even approaching solid, all of the CO2 will be squeezed out. So what you need to do is uh is keep it at that kind of like s slushy area where there's still enough liquid to have carbonation, and then carbonate it at a fairly high level and realizing there's gonna be a lot of nucleation sites and possibly foaming, because uh only the liquid will um absorb CO2 and the ice will exclude it. So that's the that's the short answer. Uh and you you you know, dry ice, the problem with dry ice is you're not gonna get an appreciable amount of carbonation in it uh unless you keep it under pressure.
+
+[35:34] And if you keep it under pressure, then y you might hose yourself, right? So um I would uh, you know, d as a cheap way to start, I would um I mean if you have a dipper cabinet, something that's not gonna freeze all the way, then I would like put the mixture into bottles, like shake carbonate the hell out of it after it comes out and then just leave it at in that kind of a slushy state, uh, and then uncap and like slam out of the bottle or just cut the top of the bottle off. 'Cause that's what I used to do when I would carbonate gels. I would uh I would set the gels in uh in bottles and then just cut the bottle open and then take the gel out without rupturing it. Um because I never was doing it enough to like invest in a system that let me reach in and n you know and get a large thing out.
+
+[36:20] Does that make sense? Yeah. Um and then uh this is just like l going back to your old streams. I was wondering if y if you and uh Stasi ever found that pear that you were you tried in in London. No.
+
+[36:35] No. Okay. The uh I forget which one it was. I'd have to go back and look at my notes. I think it was uh there was the uh the beer superfin was delicious.
+
+[36:44] Like well, it was like this like butter pear that was like I think it was a super fine, right? I think that was one of the ones. And then there was a pair that had a really awesome um what was there? There was a pair that tasted like quince that was ridiculous, so good. I have to go back and look at my notes.
+
+[36:59] Um and no, I was never able to find it. And like the problem is in uh in uh the U.S. obviously is I don't live in like hyper pear country, so I I've I've been meaning to take a trip up to Corvallis for years, but no one's I don't know, I've never made it up during pear season or during berry season, by the way. Although it turns out like in Connecticut, this little area in Connecticut I am, is like the Oregon of Connecticut in terms of berries. Like we had to have berries like coming out of our ears.
+
+[37:24] It's awesome. But maybe I could do pears then. You never know. I don't know if I have fire blight. Maybe if I don't have fire blight and I have pears, maybe I can grow them.
+
+[37:31] In which case, Nastasi and I'll have to break back into the Brogdale, steal some seeds. I'm not gonna steal seeds and bring the wood mic. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be that guy that throws like an entire agricultural industry into disarray by by smuggling seeds in. But if you were that guy, send me the seeds. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[37:46] Like I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. But if you do it, you know. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:52] Yeah. I mean, like we here at cooking issues are firmly against ruining, ruining uh agriculture for everybody. You know, we're totally against cane toed introduction into Australia, et cetera, et cetera. Nobody likes, nobody likes it. What?
+
+[38:06] Super muscles? Zebra muscles. Zebra muscles. What about you know that like the U.S. crayfish are so strong that we've wiped out all the European crayfish?
+
+[38:13] Wow. Yeah. That's that's America for you. Right, right, and blue. Yeah, yeah, I love it, right?
+
+[38:17] Love it or leave it. America, love it, love it, love it, leave it, and even if you leave it, we'll bring it to you. Five minute warning. Oh. Alright, so listen, uh, let me see if there's anything that I needed.
+
+[38:26] Did uh Tozy ever get back to us? She did. Okay. Uh we had a question in. I will get this because uh you're cooking the the cake right now.
+
+[38:34] Um let me see. From uh I'm gonna get down to who the question was. Uh okay. From uh Jeremy Brainerd wrote in uh asking Christina Tozy about a recipe. Uh it says uh thanks for the excellent show and analyst hours entertainment.
+
+[38:49] I'm working my way through the archive and about 15 episodes to go, and I haven't heard anything about this. I'm making a cake for my mother-in-law's birthday this Saturday, and I'm using Christina Toasey's chocolate malt cake recipe. Everything seems fairly straightforward, but I have a question about the temperature of the fudge coating. The recipe states that the fudge should be warm, in quotes, uh, when it is poured on the cake, but fails to specify what warm is. I'm planning on making the fudge this week and reheating it using a circulator.
+
+[39:12] It says calculator, but I assume they meant circulator with an auto-correct, hate autocorrect. Uh what temperature I mean, I like it, but whatever. Uh what temperature should I heat the fudge to uh to coat the cake but not make it too runny so it runs off the sides and onto the counter. And uh he he thanks us, but don't thank us because I emailed uh Christina Tozy, because it's her recipe, and asked her, and Nastasia will be playing the part of Christina. Please read.
+
+[39:32] Hi Dave, fudge should be just warm to the touch and viscous, not super warm to the touch, and not hot steaming, which would leave the fudge in a more watery, much more fluid state. This will render the fudge thick enough to spread itself evenly across the layers without being so loose that it seeps into layers where it doesn't belong. If coating the cake in full with fudge rather than leaving naked, make sure the cake is very cold slash frozen, 0 to 32 degrees Fahrenheit without being TMI crumb coating the cake versus ideal. If the listener has no idea what this means, I'd say S T E T. If coating the cake, fudge sauce should be warm to the touch or a much looser fluid state because the cake is frozen.
+
+[40:12] It will lock a thin layer of fudge around the cake without melting the cake or having a fudge coating that is too thick, not even. Hope this helps. Alright, so I'm gonna guess like 110, something like that. That's warm to touch, right? Fahrenheit?
+
+[40:22] Sure. 10? Try one ten. I don't know. I have no idea.
+
+[40:25] Sounds just like Christina. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so fooled for a second.
+
+[40:30] Yeah, and Nastasia reads with this reads with the same passion that Christina brings to her craft. No. Alright. So uh we're running out of time, so I have some questions I didn't get to. We'll get to them next time.
+
+[40:40] We have uh clarification questions, we have some more ISI questions, chili questions, and questions from Alan in the UK on apples, which I'll get to because I really love the apples, and I've been uh juicing apples myself recently. Just did uh six uh gallons of cider over the weekend. Uh and we'll get to those questions next week when we're back on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[41:15] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi there. I'm Greg from Capal. Visit us at Kapow.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less. C U P P O W dot com. I'm Linda Palacio, host of A Taste of the Pass.
+
+[0:15] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Brucewood, Brooklyn! Out of the back of Alberta's pizzeria in what looks to be a container that was uh pasted over with wood.
+
+[0:44] Jack, why did they like faux wood this container up? Why not? Well, I mean, like it's a container, like, you know, live in a raw container? Like corrugated. It's got like, you know, five billion year old reused, like, you know, upstate barn beams.
+
+[0:57] Well, it looks nice and it probably diffuses the sound a little bit, because if you just had the container, it would kind of sound like maybe being in a shower or something, you know. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think about the faux wood finish stuff? I like it.
+
+[1:09] Yeah. It's like a cabin. In a cat yeah. Excavating for a mine. You got your uh sweet sweet clementine in your head.
+
+[1:16] You're joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. Lopez, how are you doing? Good. Yeah, and in the engineering booth today we have the intrepid Jack Inslee. We also have Rebecca, the uh what's her official title with the Booker and Dacks?
+
+[1:28] She's a Booker and Axe intern, but she's focusing very heavily on social media, which is what she's doing now. So you should all tweet at us, please. Yeah. At what handle? At Cooking Issues and Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:43] What's with the underscore Jack? You couldn't get it away from those like weird, like, you know It's a constant battle, Dave. The underscore. If if somebody in the Cooking Issues Army can can like, you know, reconquer the regular Heritage Radio Twitter handle. Take some.
+
+[1:56] We'll do something for them. Listen, I'm not saying you should find these people and threaten them. I'm just saying if you did find them and threaten them, we would gladly accept the handle without the underscore. But we're not advocating that you threaten them. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[2:08] Correct. Uh by the way, call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. I actually had to call in yesterday. I was on the uh cutting the curd program.
+
+[2:17] Yeah. Yeah. Plastic wrap. Hey, I have to do something before we start the show. Okay.
+
+[2:21] I have to give the biggest shout out ever to Kevin Scott, who gave us a very generous donation. Thank you so so so so so so so so much, Kevin Scott. Is that you uh vaporizing his enemies? Yeah, that's that's what just happened. They're gone.
+
+[2:37] Yeah, all Kevin, all your enemies, totally, totally vaporized. By the way, speaking of uh uh not speaking of vaporization, but who's it who's kapow? New Yeah. Yeah, they're new. And it's spelled with a C like Capow.
+
+[2:48] Like company pow. Not like when I spell Capow, I spell it Batman style, which is K A. C-U-P-P-O-W. Wait, like cup. Pow, yeah.
+
+[2:58] Like take take the cup that you're drinking out of and don't don't smash into smithereens, because that would be against the mission of reuse, reduce. Actually, I guess it's reduce first, then reuse, then recycle. Those are that's the order that we're supposed to do everything, right? Yeah. It's a cool company though.
+
+[3:14] Check them out. Capow.com and you'll hear more on the break from them. So what are they what do they sell? Coffee socks. What coffee socks?
+
+[3:21] A coffee sock. What the hell is a coffee sock? What is a coffee sock? Well, they've got travel mugs and we tell you something about coffee. I mean something about coffee.
+
+[3:29] No feet, no feet on coffee. Don't require socks. What is that? Is that like a coffee mug sock? Yeah.
+
+[3:35] So you don't have to throw away the freaker. What's a freaker? Coffee freaker. What's a freaker? I don't know.
+
+[3:41] That sounds like something. What's a freaker, Jack? This sounds like something you would know what it is. Um I could guess, but speaking of which, what what was that country Sufi music you let us in with? I'll play something on the break.
+
+[3:52] That is actually thanks for the free plug. I just produced a record for my wonderful girlfriend Odetta Hartman. It's called 222. It's like psychedelic uh banjo bluegrass weird stuff, and it just came out last week and it's gotten some nice reviews and yeah, check it out. Odetta Hartman.
+
+[4:10] Odeta Hartman. 222. Did she own Odeta Hartman.com? She does. Nice.
+
+[4:15] But it does have like a little bit of Sufi twang to it, don't you think? Oh, yeah. A little bearn beern beer. I used to listen to so much uh koali music back in the day. So much koali music.
+
+[4:26] Alright. So let's get to some questions. I know we had a lot left over from uh from last week. Um I don't I gotta remember what they are though because uh, you know, because I'm a bad human being. Right?
+
+[4:38] Uh and because I've spent almost every single waking moment working either on the new Booker and Dax project, which I was gonna announce today, because someone asked us to announce it today, but I don't think I'm quite ready. Maybe maybe next week. You out there we're twittering in. Some people know already, because in private I'll tell you what I'm doing, but I don't want to announce over the air because I mean not like it, whatever. And what do you think, Sas?
+
+[5:02] I say announce it two months ago, but well, why? Liability. No, why announce I don't know. Why? Because it's gonna happen.
+
+[5:11] Yeah. Regardless. Is it we do we have the uh not the next project coming in soon? Do we know what the ETA is on that? The the the minor one, the cube.
+
+[5:19] Yeah, it can come out by Christmas. Oh, really? Well, we do have a product coming out that's not that's not a big deal, though. It's I uh people will like it. Okay, okay, so listen, explain it.
+
+[5:29] Listen, listen, listen. Listen, it's this is very difficult to wrap your head around, okay? Listen. So uh okay, when you shake a cocktail, right? It's been known for a long time among kind of higher end bartenders that shaking with a large cube, and by large, we're talking like two inches across, right?
+
+[5:50] Uh creates a uh better texture, right? So I was doing a I do events a lot, and uh what would happen is is no one would ever bring the big ice cubes to the event, right? We would have them at the bar, and but we wouldn't have them at the event, and then I would lose my mind, right? Because Nastasi's heard me say this a billion times. Does it make any sense to donate your time to get people to donate product and then show up and not do the best job you can just because of an ice cube?
+
+[6:15] No. Does it make any damn sense? No sense. Rebecca, does that make any sense? She's not on the mic right yet.
+
+[6:21] It doesn't make any sense. This is a quote, so I'm not this is not my curse. Makes no goddamn sense at all. That's him talking about the New York Post, which he he detested back in the day. Anyway, so uh you shake with the big ice cube uh and you get a better result, but the big ice cubes aren't necessarily sitting around.
+
+[6:39] So it struck me that it's not the actual ice cube that's important. In other words, it doesn't need to be ice, it's just the shape. So then I started looking at uh building fake ice cubes, right? But they're not ice cubes, they're just texturizers, right? Are they cold?
+
+[6:54] They're Stas. I love the I love you for this because it did No, they are not cold. They are not ice cubes. Neither do you put them in the fridge. They are unlike or the freezer.
+
+[7:03] They are unlike a whiskey stone. They are in fact designed to have almost no effect on the dilution of your cocktail at all. Right? No effect. Let me say this again.
+
+[7:14] They have no effect on the dilution of your cocktail at all. And you still have to put ice. But the good news is uh you don't have to freeze the big ice cubes for shaking anymore. So like at a at a at a at a at a well, like so if you come to our ice well and look at it at Booker and Dax, it's full of ice cubes, big ice cubes, that you're basically throwing away after it one shake, and they're melting into nothing, right? So it takes up a bunch of freezer space, and you have to melt all this ice.
+
+[7:42] Whereas you could just use the small crappy ice and get the same uh same texture as if you had a big ice cube just by throwing in this what are we calling it? Cocktail cube, this like texturizing cube that has no freaking chilling ability. Get it through your head. It doesn't have a rock. No, because a rock will affect the dilution.
+
+[8:02] But think of it as like it does not think of it as not existing other than as a texturizing effect, okay? It it and it oh, it has the same density as ice, it has uh it feels the same in a shaker as ice, but it has no chilling effect one way or t'other. Okay? All it's doing is making it better. Justin wants to know how can it not mess with your dilution?
+
+[8:21] Ah, that's an excellent question, Justin. Uh, because it uh it has very low, in other words, it will mess with it slightly. It will uh theoretically, uh, if it is warm, it will slightly cause slightly more dilution, and if it is cold, it will cause slightly less, but it itself has very low uh specific heat, so it doesn't store a lot of energy, and it's also an incredibly poor conductor insulator as i as well, so it doesn't uh transmit heat or suck heat in readily. So it's it's it's an insulator and it has a low specific heat. So it it has almost no effect, no noticeable effect on uh dilution.
+
+[8:56] But excellent excellent question, uh Justin. So anyway, so before Christmas, those are gonna be uh in in town, but uh the big goal is to launch the big product on a pre-sale by Black Friday. You think we're gonna do it, Stuz? You think we're gonna make it? You a Black Friday fan?
+
+[9:11] Uh am I the last three years. No, we no, our Thanksgivings have been ruined like three times straight, but like the the th the fact of the matter is is that anyone in retail knows you d you do like huge numbers at the end of the at the end of the year. You know what I mean? Sure do. Yeah.
+
+[9:27] BJD wrote in, uh, hey, uh, Hammer Dave and J Mall, which is your which is your nickname for the molecules. Is that the second time I got a J Mall? No, we just didn't get to the question last time. Oh, okay, good. Yeah.
+
+[9:38] I've seen nitrogen push cold toddy coffee around. Is that something I could do with my EC whipper? If so, what's your suggested procedure? Uh send for my iPhone BJD. Okay.
+
+[9:48] So, um, look, there's a couple different things. When people say peop I wish people get over listen, I want you next time you see someone and they m and they d they're not clear. Uh is it cool to tell people to like lightly smack people in the face? Like a little bit? Probably not.
+
+[10:03] Well, like punch them in the arm. Do it with your eyes. Oh, give them uh like an eyeball smackdown. That's what Stas does a hundred percent of the time. If Stas's eyeball smackdowns are effective, I would be like crushed into like a a disc on the ground, like a like a thin pasty disc.
+
+[10:20] Right? Anyways. Uh so do not and do not allow anyone else to confuse the difference between nitrogen, a uh the relatively inert uh diatomic gas that we breathe in and turn to a liquid so that we can freeze things. And nitrous oxide, the uh bubbly, soluble, sweet, narcotic uh um I should say anesthetic uh product that we um used for whipped cream, right? So you could use nitrogen to uh push coffee around, but I would guess that you want to use nitrous.
+
+[10:57] And the reason you want to use nitrous is because it creates the kind of um nice texture in a coffee drink that you lose when it's not hot, right? When it or when it hasn't been just made, especially espresso, which has that kind of like you know, that liveliness, and so it puts it puts it back in. So sure. I mean you do it, just put it. I have actually a couple of nitrous pus pushed uh recipes in uh in my uh in the book in liquid intelligence.
+
+[11:21] Uh you just you know, just shake it and shoot it, right? You know what I mean? Unless you unless you're looking to use your EC whipper to push out a larger quantity out of a bottle, in which case you gotta go through a rig and roll and blah blah blah. Does that make sense, Jack? Yeah, I've got a caller on the line when you're ready for it.
+
+[11:36] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Devin from uh DC. I uh just got back from my honeymoon in Japan. And uh, of course, uh we went to the Sakiji uh fish market, we saw the Ikajime, which was awesome. Um my wife is an awesome person, so she insisted that I buy a Yanagi when we walk past the Aritsugu um stall in the outer Sahiji market.
+
+[12:04] Nice. Um and it's one of the you know sweet traditional single bevel uh deals. That's the way to go. And yeah, yeah. Uh I'm really excited to use it.
+
+[12:14] Um my question is I've never honed a single bevel knife, and I actually don't know if that's even something that you do. I I have the some DMT uh whetstones, but I also have a ceramic um honing um uh steel. And would you just put the flat side against the flat part of the the the honing steel, or do you not even hone uh yinagi at all? Okay, so uh I do things uh compared to what a Japanese person thinks is reasonable, I am uh the worst human in the world, a complete enemy enemy of quality. I do not follow I'm just letting you know straight up, I do not follow traditional sharpening procedure uh on any of my traditional uh Japanese knives.
+
+[13:03] Which DMT stone do you have? I have a set of three, like uh medium, fine, and extra fine, I think. Yeah, but do you have the interrupted ones? The interrupted pattern? Do you have the interrupted pattern or the solid pattern?
+
+[13:16] The one with the polka dots, is that interrupted? Yeah, the interrupted pattern. Okay. Do you have the really, really big one? No, they're like uh five inches long, maybe.
+
+[13:25] Yeah. Well, like for something like this, I find it's uh it's a lot easier. I uh it I know it's an investment, but like the the only one I use really is the the very big one that has uh two sides on it, and uh it's the uh fine extra fine, so that's green and red uh in the DMT colors. And I use the big ones, it's just gonna make your your life a lot easier. But even so, most uh Japanese remember you can't you can't switch you can't mentally switch between European American grits and Japanese grits.
+
+[13:58] It doesn't work, right? Uh but those guys are all using uh very, very fine grained uh water stones. But you don't need you don't need to do that, frankly. I mean I've been doing it for years, and no one's ever said, hey Dave, your Yanagi's not sharp. Instead they're like, Holy crap, that's a sharp knife.
+
+[14:14] You know what I mean? Uh and uh the good news is is that even though there's a mystique about this, uh the Japanese knives are the easiest knives to sharpen in the world, which is, you know, w I guess why they can make 'em out of a uh steel that requires so much freaking sharpening because you have to touch it up all the time. You know what I mean? Uh so I would I don't do anything other than uh I finish on the on the extra fine and I just um you know, y on the flat side, I will go almost a hundred percent flat. Like like basically flat.
+
+[14:45] Like I would but I won't I won't put any force into it at all. Like when I'm going on the green with what when I'm going on the less fine one, I'll maybe lift it up slightly to take any burr off. Like when I'm saying slightly, I mean like like a couple paper, couple pa thickness is the paper off the back edge, just so I'm not putting a mark on the back of my knife and then shump, but then on my last one, it's literally just like gliding over over that thing. It should be almost nothing. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:10] Uh you're really just taking the burr off on that on that side. And it's um because remember, when you look at the back, it should be slightly con cave on that side anyway. So you should it's not like you should be getting a bunch of scrape alongs a crow on the back of the knife if if if if you're doing if you're doing it right. And you'll find that it's the easiest knife in the world to sharpen. It's so easy to sharpen and it's so freaking sharp.
+
+[15:33] Sometimes I will um I will run the knife backward. I have a leather strop, so sometimes I'll I'll just uh like lightly d drag it backwards uh on uh a strop to take off anything off the edge that it's done. But I don't I don't go to any hyper fine stuff, I don't do any like honing or polishing of it and because you're doing it like every time you use it. You know what I mean? Every time you bust it out, you the touch it up and you go.
+
+[15:57] So you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I I I guess uh I guess it's a commitment. Which is fine. It's like literally it's like it's like a like a minute, especially if you're used to it.
+
+[16:08] And this is the problem I have with a lot of like big systems. So I have uh um one of the um I forget the name of it, but it's very popular uh sharpener that you bolt down and you have like the thing that holds the exact angle and it goes up to like eight million, it goes up to like basically what looks to be it feels like that it's not abrasive at all, like it's like finer than even toothpaste and anything. And you know, you you scrape it along the thing and it maintains the angle and stuff. You're never gonna use it every day because it's a it's it's a it's a thing. It's a it's a rigmarole to to to use it, right?
+
+[16:40] Whereas I have a big DMT, the big DMT thing that's flat, it doesn't throw off grit. I don't need to soak it like a Japanese water stone, right? So literally I just rinse off any grit that's on it, throw it on my surface, shap, shap, shap, slap, slap, slap, shap, shap, shap, and I'm ready to cut, and then you have a Yanagi where every time you draw it through a piece of fish, you are a happy person, right? So is it worth like you know, forty-five seconds to a minute to prepare yourself when you're gonna cut an expensive piece of fish anyway, such that you get a cut that makes you want to cry. It's so much fun to cut, the single draw through without that line because you had to push the other direction.
+
+[17:18] Don't you hate that line when you have to push in the other direction? Yeah. Yeah, you hate it. So it's like it's it's totally worth the time. It's so it feels like a commitment when you're starting, but when you're actually using it, it's like so much more fun to cut that way that it's like you're not gonna we're uh you're not gonna think about it.
+
+[17:32] Yeah. Cool, thanks a lot. Alright, no problem. Uh but I'm sure someone will write in that I'm an enemy of quality and a terrible person for the way that I sharpen it. I have another call that just came in.
+
+[17:41] Alright, caller, you're on the air. Uh hey Dave. Um, Dan, Seattle, or just south of there anyway. Um I've been doing pork barely at sixty-five degrees uh Celsius for twenty four hours, and as long as I do it with a dry rub, it comes out perfectly. Okay.
+
+[18:01] I'm I mean absolutely perfectly. But I'm trying to get basically to do um Ivan Raman's pork belly in the sous vide, and I cannot reduce it enough to keep the texture from going completely weird in the bag. Huh. Well, so how reduced is the like w tell me w tell me what what what liquids are going in the bag. Okay, so it's it's it's soy sauce, sake, and I mean I mean he calls for mirroring, but good mirroring is so hard to find in the US, I just add more sake with more sugar.
+
+[18:34] Okay. Garlic and ginger. It's nothing real complicated. And I mean I reduce it I mean as much as I can reduce it and still and get more of it out of the pot than I leave stuck to the pot. Right.
+
+[18:47] And it's still what happens to the texture. I mean, just the the texture of the pork comes out completely different. Um so, like more spongy or more like it's poached? Yeah, yeah, it's okay, so like w when I do a dry rub and I've done three di three or four different ones. Um it's one of the b best things I cook.
+
+[19:12] Um I mean it comes out perfectly firm, but perfectly tender. It's just it's just still sliceable. Right. And you sear it off for, you know, a minute by whatever's convenient that day. Um I just got the uh palladium screens for my cerezol, and that is a very good trick.
+
+[19:36] Uh you know, and you sear it off, I mean it's just it's just absolutely amazing, but I cannot get this soy sauce socky flavor profile. Um how much liquid is coming out of the regular dry rub bag when you're cooking? Um probably two tablespoons of fat and one tablespoon of liquid. I mean, guessing, I mean that's cooking more or less an eight ounce portion. Right.
+
+[20:04] So now are you on the dry rub, are you letting it sit for a while before you bag it? Like how much. No, I am um I I I just do a fairly high salt percentage, like one third salt, two-thirds, two thirds of whatever the spice is. I mean five spice works great. And I just, you know, mix that up, pat it on the belly, pat it on there heavy, uh and straight in the bag, and then you know, it's just the the results are too good that you know.
+
+[20:34] Yeah. And your vacuum level with um your vacuum level is the same in both cases, you think? Uh well, it's exactly the same bag on exactly the same machine, and I mean I've done this with exactly the same piece of pork, because I mean like a Costco sells it will sell you a whole belly, you know, basically five pounds of belly, and you I portion that out and um, you know, uh put two or three or four things on it and put it in the freezer. Well, how much how much liquid would you say is going into the bag uh when you're doing it this other way? Probably two to three tablespoons.
+
+[21:07] I mean, I'm really trying not to put too much in there. I've been trying to put less and less as I try to get past this problem. And the less you put in is is the therefore the better the texture or no? It doesn't seem to matter. Any any starting liquid at all and it and it just doesn't work.
+
+[21:28] Um there some people are there's some dry rub has sugar, right? Soy sauce powder? I mean clearly you can't socky oh no, there is. There's there's uh there is soy sauce powder. There's spray-dried soy sauce, and there's um and there's also um yeah, there's granulated soy sauce.
+
+[21:42] But but your your dry rub has sugar in it or no? Uh my my dry rub what your dry rub also contains sugar or no? Uh I don't think any of my dry rubs contains sugar. I'm just trying to be the whole deal? I don't know.
+
+[21:57] I'm trying to figure out what the differences are between them. You would think that like an extra tablespoon of liquid isn't going to necessarily make that big of a difference, right? So I'm just trying to figure out what it is. Yeah. I I I mean, that's why I just been shaking my head about it.
+
+[22:10] But I mean, you know, I with the dry rub, and I've done at least I've done five spice, I've done this um uh more or less Thai one from Pensies, I've done um Yeah. I've done barbecue. I mean, they all just work amazing, but one drop of liquid and it just goes to heck. Um that's the thing. I wonder if like in other words, like let's say you were to do the I don't know how like willing you are to mess with it, but let's say you were to do your dry rub next time, right?
+
+[22:38] And you and you were to just throw like a tablespoon or two tablespoons of like uh like what sugar or no stock. Like whatever. Like whatever you have. Okay. Like, and then see whether or not that is uh like also bad.
+
+[22:54] Because remember also, that like if how much spice are you putting in? Is it such you have to brush it off at the end, or does it all melt melt in? Like the spices are going to be absorptive. I mean, you have a you you're putting an absorptive thing into also something that has less water in it to begin with. So I'm wondering whether or not like the only the so the things is there's there's added water, there's sugar.
+
+[23:14] I don't think the ginger is making that big of a deal. I guess it's potentially possible, but I don't think the ginger's uh doing too much to the texture. Uh you know, I've been wrong many times, but the it the slight amount of alcohol, I don't think is gonna do anything to it. Um, especially since you've reduced the heck out of it, right? I mean I mean again, you know, I just I try to reduce it until I'm like just terrified of burning it.
+
+[23:37] Right. And and remember with the amount of sugar and other solids in that, you'd also think that the water activity of that stuff would be quite low with all the added uh sugar. I would run a test to see whether or not just adding a couple tablespoons of neutral liquid to your bag totally ruins the texture. In which case you're in a situation where you might want to go all powdered, and they do make powdered everything, right? Or another thing I would do is you could add a little, like we said before, add a little sugar to one of your dri I would like next time you do it and you portion them all out, I would take one bag, I would add sugar to your dry rub to the sweetness that you think you're gonna get.
+
+[24:09] Uh I would do another one and throw in a couple tablespoons of water and see whether that what that does to the texture. Obviously the taste won't be the same. And uh and then you could kind of work from there, figure out which one it is. At the same time, you can go um online. I know a lot of uh powdered soy sauce, spray dried soy sauce, granulated soy sauce.
+
+[24:25] I've seen them, I've seen them all. The um I had one last thing, but I forget what it I have one last thing, but I forget what it is. Oh, yeah. Do they taste both like they have the same level of salt in them when you're done? Um well, I mean, they're just such different taste, it's sort of hard to judge.
+
+[24:45] Right. Because another thing is that salt in the thing is gonna firm up the meat. So if it's a lack of firmness, it might also be that you're just low on salt. In which case, uh, I would you could like throw salt, but I don't want you to oversalt it, but if the soy sauce one is not as salty as the one that you normally make, then what you could do is salt it down, put in the reduced stuff and go, and it might bring you back to where you once belonged. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[25:10] Got it. So those are the things that I would try. I would try to try to make a judgment in your head about how salty the uh soy sauce one is when you're done. Uh see whether sugar has an effect. I don't think we have I don't think I've ever really cooked uh a lot of meat in a bag with a lot of sugar.
+
+[25:24] I don't I don't know that I have. I'm sure someone has on Twitter here, they'll they'll chime in. Jack, is anyone chiming in on this stuff? Not yet. Someone chime in on this chime.
+
+[25:33] Chime in on the boards. But anyway, uh let us let us know how it goes. Thank you very much. Alrighty. Uh hey, Jackie.
+
+[25:40] Let's take yeah, let's take a really quick break. I've got a caller on the line, so callers stay tight. We'll get to you in just a second. Uh, first a few words from Capow. Americans throw away 58 billion disposable cups every year.
+
+[25:53] A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know. But I'm Greg from Capow, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's a hundred percent US made. You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at Kapow.com.
+
+[26:11] C-U-P-P-O-W.com. So I had to play a little tiny piece of that because um it's such a it's such a cool coincidence. You you asked about that music before the show started. I told you I produced that album for Odetta Hartman. So the name of the album is two two two.
+
+[27:06] And it just happens to be episode two two two of cooking issues. What isn't that weird? Two hundred and twenty we've done this two hundred and twenty-two times, Dad. Shockingly, yes. Oh man.
+
+[27:19] That's crazy, huh? That's your girlfriend's voice. That's it. Dude, you gotta you gotta hang out with the Sabri brothers, man. Yeah.
+
+[27:30] Sweet sweet Makbull Sabri could do some some uh koali chance with that, it'd be sick. Put put uh, you know that you yeah, nothing. I think he's the dead one. I forget which one of the famous Sabris is dead. Maybe it's Makbull.
+
+[27:45] I don't know. Anyway, uh caller. Oh, call a caller, yeah, call her, call her, you're on the air. Hey, hey, hey Dave, how are you? Doing alright.
+
+[27:52] Um, okay, so I uh I had a friend ask me this question, so I'm uh calling you because I couldn't figure it out. So he had about uh 15 leaves of fresh bay that he infused into um some leather bee gin from Chicago. Two ways. Once he blanched it, and the other time he didn't. And both times he stored it in an airtight container and it was a really great green color initially, but then turned to nasty brown after a couple days.
+
+[28:14] I'm familiar with nasty brown. That's my that's my nickname. That's right. So uh so his question is why did that happen? He thought at least the blanching would have killed those those enzymes and and he could have had a great color.
+
+[28:36] Well, like uh it like why is it oxidizing over time in straight gin? I mean you a lot of times you'll get oxidation, so I'm trying to figure out how to how to prevent it. You would be you would if you blanched it enough, well, okay. I mean, bay leaves are tough suckers, right? Because they're so thick and waxy.
+
+[28:57] Like I don't know how long he blanched them. Um but I've never had good luck with I gotta be honest, I've never had good luck with bay leaves because it takes forever to infuse them and they don't nitromble well. Um and they're so they're so tough. Why are they turning brown? I mean, certain things are gonna turn brown, like like uh what if you dried it first?
+
+[29:23] Dried at first? Yeah, but I guess that kind of kills the fact that you're using fresh, right? But what if you what if you dried it first? Because you know, like that's an easy way to keep mint really, really just to not from turn brown, right? Is to dry it before you before you put it in to the stuff, or um like why is it the chlorophyll from spinach in like chartreuse just never turns brown?
+
+[29:45] Why? Right. Right. Do you think if he tried a different infusion technique instead of maybe like a vacuum infusion and ISI, do you think it would hold the color better? Or no.
+
+[29:56] He's just doing natural regular natural infusion, right? So uh I think it would just ex it would accelerate it, but uh but I don't think it would prevent anything uh from happening. And also, bay leaf isn't appreciably uh watering it down, so it's not like you're changing the uh you know the environment of it. Um I don't think of bay leaf as being hyper green anyway. Do you stuzz?
+
+[30:19] No. You think of it as being olive grab, right? I've used fresh bay. Tastes good, hard to get into uh bo would did it taste good to stuff? Um I don't know.
+
+[30:30] I haven't tasted it. I think he said it tasted okay. So he's like he's letting you look at it but not letting you taste it? That's so wrong. That's so wrong.
+
+[30:38] No, no, no. Okay. Uh he he's texting me, he says it it tasted awesome. Oh, okay. Uh and did it taste any different after it turned brown?
+
+[30:48] Ooh, I don't know. Let's see what he says. Yeah. Because like w most of the time when things are turning brown, there's a there's a concomitant uh uh oxidized taste as well. Right.
+
+[30:59] Exactly. And uh he says that it doesn't taste any different. Uh yeah, then you know what else? You could also you could freaking cheat. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:06] You can just add some some like chlorophyll, some green style, go like go chartreuse on that. No one no one accuses no one accuses the Carthusians of being bastards just because they uh put a little spinach juice into their into their product. You know what I'm saying? I didn't know that. Yeah, how do you think they do that?
+
+[31:21] I never dry brown herbs into it, right? Because I've seen the buckets that they pull the herbs out of and then they you know they make it all nice and green. Well, I guess they distill it, it comes out clear. And then they add, yeah, spin like they they they say it's chloride. They chlorophyll it's chlorophyll.
+
+[31:35] Okay. Where where would I find that? Modernist uh pantry.com? They probably you know what? If if they if they if they don't have it, they'll probably buy it.
+
+[31:42] And also there's like all kind of um people who think that chlorophyll is gonna save their their guts from like you know the ravages of whatever they do or do not do to them. So people you can buy it on Amazon. You can buy chlorophyll powder. Oh, okay. And you know, instead of making you you can make it from spinach, right?
+
+[31:59] And there's plenty of like um what's it called, uh YouTube videos on how to get the green out of spinach without the uh kind of nasty black black stuff to to color things green. Plenty, plenty. Yeah. Uh and that'll probably punch the punch the green up. As long as the flavor of the of the liquor is not going uh oxidized and bad, then I would just cheat with the color rather than like worry your head about it too much.
+
+[32:21] Okay, awesome. That's uh that's great. Thanks so much, Dave. Hey, no problem. Uh all righty.
+
+[32:26] So uh another caller. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, it's Elliot Havner from Chicago. Hey hey, Elliot. What's I hear you got in an argument with someone over who is the true Elliot.
+
+[32:36] Apparently, there's like dueling Elliots. Yeah, there's some uh beef going on in the chat room. I don't know what's going on with that. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[32:45] I got a question for you about cooking some sausages this weekend. So I made 30 lamb sausages uh last night, and I'm gonna be cooking like a um a Weber grill and Weber charcoal, whatever gas, and I was still probably able to think about doing like a poach and a grill, but I need some advice on timing everything. Okay. Uh what like what what are we talking here? Like Merguez?
+
+[33:07] What size are we talking? Yeah, well, it's uh it's that's uh kind of mixed, but it's a regular like hog casing. Okay. So what I always do on this, I would go um a a lot depends on like whether you need 'em to look a hundred percent perfect, but I always prefer like the the high the high heat finish. So like they know, if I were you, it's no offense to people in their and the gas grills, but I've never had a gas grill that I was like, yeah, that's really freaking hot.
+
+[33:35] Like that really makes me feel happy about my life, how hot it is. Have you ever encountered a gas grill that made you feel happy about your life? No, I need some uh serious power for that. Yeah, power. Right.
+
+[33:45] So I would I would do like the big charcoal and I and I would go like, you know, uh my average temperature to finish things is roughly kind of like as close as I can get it to the surface of the sun. Uh because you can't really over go on uh on a charcoal uh heat like that. It's not like using a blowtorch, you can't go too over on it. So I would go like super hot like that, then I would do uh are the people that you're gonna feed it to at all squeamish? No, not at all.
+
+[34:11] Okay. Then I would do a hundred and forty degrees, which is uh s oh plus it's lamb anyway, it's not well, but you have pork fat in it, right? But it doesn't matter. It's not gonna be no, you know, I didn't I didn't use any pork fat, I used all lamb fat, but it's a pretty good supply. Oh yeah?
+
+[34:23] Was it nice and firm the fat? Did you like does uh is the lamb have like a firm enough fat to really Yeah, you know, I I um I weighed out about twenty percent, but I think my yield probably got like somewhere between fifteen and twenty percent at the end, you know, if it just freaked a little bit at the end, but I wait I waited afterward the stuff I took out. Right. I think I'm gonna summer between ten fifteen. If you're doing if you're getting smear and you're uh and like you're doing lamb fat, then like low temp it is a hundred percent the way to go because that way if you were gonna get like a lot of bleed out if it wasn't gonna hold, the then uh then the low temp you're gonna like be a freaking champion.
+
+[34:56] You know what I'm saying? So norm most normally with any sausage, I'm doing uh I do uh sixty Celsius, which is you know one forty. Uh now I should be able to get that on the stove 'cause I got an electric stove and it's got pretty good temperature controls. I should be fine. Oh, you don't have a circ?
+
+[35:13] What's that? You don't have a circulator? No, I don't have a circulator. I see assume circular. Yeah, but you can do one for one forty is not that hard.
+
+[35:21] So but I would I would do it in water in bags. And I would put what I typically do is I put uh oh, you could do a poach. Remember that time? Did we do beers beer that time, Stas? Yeah, you could do it that way too.
+
+[35:32] You can do a uh a you could do a poach. You can do a poach. All right. But if you made the sausages, man, they have circulators now for like like they're almost free. They're almost free.
+
+[35:40] Oh, I know I I gotta get one of those. They're almost they're good. I like I like going over the wide fire, so they gotta they gotta keep it uh a little rusty. Yeah, yeah, all right. But anyway, so yeah, so you like uh oh, you know what another thing you could do?
+
+[35:50] You could do the old school uh the way that people you could get like a a cooler, calculate the weight of sausage and then the the weight of your poaching liquid, and then like dump it in and let it just cook through and settle down, and then you can just pull them out of the out of the vat as they go and go bang bang bang, right? So like if you have like a stock that you like the flavor of and you know that it's like uh well, you just have to calculate what the what the finished temperature is. And there's they're not that big, so it doesn't take that long to cook them through as long as they're submerged. So uh, you know, like you know, like like half hour or something like that. And so and I got lamb stock already too, so I could put that in there and then finish them on the grill to pull them off and put them on the plate.
+
+[36:31] Yeah, so then you could like take the cooler, like you like a like a couple hours beforehand, you put the water, you know, you put the water in at the strike temperature, which you know any homebrew shop, any homebrew site will tell you how to calculate strike temperature for things like mashes and uh you know, and um it's it's a little bit different because uh you have to you have to assume that the thermal mass of your sausage is roughly the same as water, right? So you figure that uh uh unlike uh I don't know how they calculate, it's been a long time, whether they bother doing the calculations on thermal mass for when they're doing malt. I don't know. But anyway, check it out. But yeah and and a bunch of other people have calculated the strike temperatures uh for um cooking low temp in uh in uh standard five gallon coolers before or whatever you want.
+
+[37:13] So anyways, so like a couple hours beforehand uh you do that and then the temperature slowly drops over the next um over over the couple of hours, which is actually a benefit to you because it means that you're not gonna overcook on the finish, but they'll still be warm, right? So win win win, pull them right out with tongs, right on the freaking like hotter than the sun grill. Your broth will taste better, you can use it later and make a sauce with it, and as long as it's a very, very flavorful liquid, it's not gonna ruin the flavor of your sausage too much. Yeah, it's gonna be good. But get a circulator.
+
+[37:43] They're like how much they cost now, Stas. Uh well, like one. Yeah, they're like $150, right? Yeah. Well, and look I'm gonna tell you what like uh w whatever holidays you may or may not s uh celebrate, get someone to get it because like it's gonna make your life so much easier with the stuff you're doing.
+
+[37:56] It'll it can s depending on what how you cook and what you cook, it can save you money in the end because you know you know you'll never get it. Chat rooms going nuts. We got Christmas coming up and my birthdays are right around there too, so we'll be good to go. Get a circulator. But what is the chat room saying about this, Jack?
+
+[38:11] They can't believe he doesn't have a circulator. Maybe he's not the number of things. I'll say this though. I can solve the real Elliot question. Oh obviously the next donation that comes in from an Elliot.
+
+[38:31] Oh that'll be the real Elliot. Oh man. Oh man. Alright. Uh okay.
+
+[38:38] So uh do we did we talk about the uh four minutes. Did we talk about the Did we talk about Mastiha last time? Mastika? Okay, so we got. Yeah, right.
+
+[38:45] We talked about it. We didn't answer ask George's question because someone else called in about Mastika, right? Very hard to keep track of uh what's uh what's going on. Oh, this one actually uh would be good for um this one would be good for the the the Twitterverse out there that what do what do you call the people on the Heritage Radio site? What what what is that called?
+
+[39:03] What's the chat room called? Oh, I don't know. We had to come up with a name for that. I don't know. Yeah, you gotta do that.
+
+[39:09] This one in because like I'm gonna just say right now that my opinion is not good. Here we go. Joel still writes in on chili. Uh hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and uh whoever else is hanging around, which is Rebecca today. Um it's getting to be chili cook-off season.
+
+[39:23] You fan of chilies, Stas? Yes. What kind of chili do you have? Right. Any kind of chili?
+
+[39:28] Wait, what do you mean? It's not any kind of chili with curry. Yeah, it's not chili, so let's not get into this conversation. Oh, yeah. Remember, Stas probably makes her chili without cumin.
+
+[39:35] So, like she's being cumin. She's automatically Wait, you hate cumin? Is that what you said? I just don't put it in. It's not chili then.
+
+[39:41] I know. It's not freaking chili. Let's get to the question. Okay, okay, okay. Uh and I'm really looking to put some effort into finalizing my recipe this year.
+
+[39:49] I haven't heard you speak on the topic at all. So do you have any special uh tips, uh tricks or modern or otherwise that might make uh uh make a good chili and put it over the top? I don't know if uh circulator would help at all, but maybe there's something interesting that can be done with the initial chili mixture. Do you have all uh a favorite brand of blend of dried chilies, a favorite uh favorite method of adding extra flavor, beer, chocolate, marmeat, anchovies, tomato paste, beef bones, bourbons. You like using short ribs as the meat.
+
+[40:16] Any tips would be most appreciated. Love the show. Uh, Joel. Okay, so listen, I'm gonna want people to tweet in because I don't ha I'll tell you how I make it, but I don't think that I have any like my tricks like aren't aren't amazing, right? Like I use a pressure cooker and I over over overdose on uh on alliums, right?
+
+[40:35] Because uh they they you know get kind of totaled in the pressure cooker, right? I use like hyper reduced uh I what I do it's super it's fast, so I'm not doing like k chili cook off, like I'm not like trying to be like the best human in the world on this. I just I'm going for kind of uh speed. But I used uh like a hyper reduced stock, which I uh blend with um I blend with a mixture of dried chilies. It's usually like whatever I can get, but I like a I like a mixture.
+
+[41:02] I like I don't like them like hyper smoky, like I like like a I'll put I'll throw a couple of smoky ones in, but I like like you know, like a mixture like uh guajillo and pasilla and like uh some others, and not not that spicy because my family won't won't do it, but I like a good blend of dried chilies. Uh blend that with the stock and the vita prep, uh, and then I'll pre I'll sear off all of the meat in the pressure cooker and then throw it in uh do off the alliance, throw it in with the um throw it in with the uh with the hyper reduced stock blend with the chilies, then I'll pressure cook that down, pull it, reduce the stock, blend in into then I'm gonna blend in the tomato paste, not before, and then oh I also sometimes put in uh beer and or tequila, but then uh then uh uh reduce it, then add it back to the meat and then stir it and go. That's typically how I do. I also I also fold back the chicharrones. Uh uh if I'm using I usually put some pork, by the way, I didn't mention this.
+
+[41:54] I usually am using some pork in there too, and I fold some crunchy chicharrones back back in when I'm done. Uh but I don't really have any good tricks, but I'm sure the people on the chat room will have excellent chili chili tricks. Is anyone giving us excellent chili trick tricks, Jack? Uh, not yet. All right.
+
+[42:09] So, uh how much how much longer do I have? Like uh no time. You're the worst Alan from the UK has apples, and we need to think about some apple things uh for him uh for for next week. And then we have all of this week's questions, including ones on chickpea aquafabla, which we will get to the next time on cooking issues. Thank you to everybody in the chat room.
+
+[42:41] And if you're listening on iTunes or in the podcast, be sure to tune in live every Tuesday at noon and join the conversation live. Thanks again. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[43:09] You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi there. I'm Greg from Capal. Visit us at Kapow.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less. C-U-P-P-O-W dot com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink.
+
+[0:15] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you late and live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Whereas Where's Yeah. That's actually, you know what, that's not bad.
+
+[0:44] Bushwai! Like I trailed off at the end. Bush with Brooklyn. Call your questions to 718497-2128. That's uh 718497-2128.
+
+[0:54] Jack Insle, our intrepid Jack Insley, is in Madison, Wisconsin today. What's he doing over there? Do you know? Uh he sent me a picture of him with cows. Cows.
+
+[1:03] Cows. Cows. Alright. Uh we'll have to ask him that when he gets back. Instead, we have uh Liz.
+
+[1:09] Hi there. Very excited to be here. Nice. Well, I'm sorry I'm so freaking late as usual, but it means you get an abbreviated first first time engineering with us, but uh hopefully you enjoy it. And we have Rebecca.
+
+[1:22] Hello. Hello, Rebecca. Running the chat. Oh, Rebecca's running the chat. She she is Booker and Dax's social media director.
+
+[1:30] It sounds like a camp counselorship. Social media director. Alright. Well, Stas is calling up last week's questions. We have them up, and the one that you should get to is read it.
+
+[1:44] You know which one it is. It's a chickpea. Didn't we? I didn't answer the chickpea cook. Alright, read it.
+
+[1:50] Uh vegan internet has gotten very excited this year over making meringue on the chickpea cooking liquid. Turns out that the liquid from a can of chickpeas, which people are calling aquafaba. Whips up like egg whites. I'm previously I previously made vegan rings, Pablo, etc. using VersaWhip 600 K.
+
+[2:09] And this stuff works almost as well. Here's my question. I don't usually buy canned chickpeas. I'd prefer to cook them in my pressure cooker. So far, the liquid from my pressure cooker from my pressure cooked chickpeas hasn't whipped up the same way.
+
+[2:21] When I tried it, it only got slightly frothy, didn't foam up at all. Any guesses as to why it doesn't work like liquid from the can? Okay. First of all, uh I prefer it when you use whip. Quip.
+
+[2:36] Uh all right. Well, I don't know. I looked up on the internets uh last week or the week before, I can't remember. And there is a person, I forget their name because I have it on the file from last week, who uh was successful in making their own um their own like uh aquafaba with uh chickpeas. A couple things I would look out for.
+
+[2:56] First of all, I would find uh this person on the internet whose name I wish I could remember who made their own. I think my Google search was something really simple, stupid like DIY uh aquafaba or something like this. Um they I think were using cons I remember from your question that you were you you were not getting the consistency that you wanted when it was done. Now remember you have to let it cool off to see what kind of back set you're gonna get from any starch that comes out of it to see what the actual texture is gonna be. Uh and then I also noticed you said that if it wasn't the right texture, you boiled it down.
+
+[3:26] Maybe it's maybe you're doing too much boiling. My my recollection is the person who was uh doing it online was cooking it for a relatively short amount of time. Like they were soaking overnight, and then they were only doing something like a 15 or 20 minute cook at 15 PSI. Now that maybe maybe too low, I'm not I'm not sure, but they were also probably using less water uh to do it. But some other things you might want to look into, um, because remember, the way that they make canned chickpeas is they soak uh chickpeas and then they put them in the can with a prescribed amount of water and then they put them in a retort, i.e.
+
+[4:01] a pressure cooker, until they're done. They cook them considerably longer than 15 minutes, I think. Uh, but um anyway, that's how they're actually made. So you should be able to do it. I wonder whether you're using a different variety of chickpea.
+
+[4:11] There are two main, I mean there are a bunch of different varietules, but they're you know, the two main varieties are kind of the larger uh uh, you know, American kind of ones and this and the smaller uh ones like Indian style ones. Uh and I think all of the canned ones in the aquafaba is probably made from the larger ones. Now, I looked up and the aquafaba website, they still haven't, I guess, gotten enough money to figure out what the science is behind it. So, you know, presumably there's uh a protein in there that's whipping up whipping up, and uh presumably also some st uh starch uh thickening break breaking out of it. So, you know, perhaps you're being too gentle and they're not getting busted up enough and you're not releasing enough crap into the water.
+
+[4:53] I I don't know. But uh I would look up that person on the web who uh seems to be able to get uh because they they they said that they whip whipped it up fine because they also don't buy um canned uh chickpeas. What do you think? Good. Good?
+
+[5:05] Mm-hmm. Did I hear a call coming? We do have a caller. Here he is. All right, caller, you were on the air.
+
+[5:10] Hey Dave, it's Alex from New York, New York. I have a question about deep fryers. Oh, yeah, I love deep fryers. Are countertop deep deep fryers a waste of time, the electric? Um, okay.
+
+[5:24] So waste of time is such a strong term, right? So I think that like uh they can often be it like it depends on what you're willing to put up with and what you're trying to get out of it. How many people you cook for on a regular basis? About eight. No, don't do it.
+
+[5:39] No. Okay. No. You know what? Uh like uh so like what I would do, um what I do in new I'm my deep fryer at uh you know in New York City now, I took my my big deep fryer, my 30 gallon, my nice one, up to uh up to Connecticut, and I have it outdoors, so I'm testing my my years-long espoused theory of putting a professional deep fryer out outside.
+
+[6:02] And by the way, so far, good idea. By the way, people, so far, good idea. Um I keep it covered, obviously, and I drain the oil, don't leave it in there, etc. etc. Uh, and I only use a stainless steel fryer there.
+
+[6:13] At home now, the the issue is the the good thing about the countertop fryer is that you can walk away from it. How powerful is your stove? How what? How powerful is your range? I have no idea it's a stock New York City apartment stove.
+
+[6:27] Yeah, so weak. Yeah. So you might be you might be I mean, no offense. Weak. You might want to get uh see here here's the issue, right?
+
+[6:35] Is that uh the the problem with those home uh fryers is all they're giving you is uh basic uh thermostatic uh control, right? They're they're they're not really protecting the oil in a way that a professional deep fryer would be. Like you don't have a cold zone. Once you don't have a cold zone and you're and you're you know you're having the issue where the oil is like cycling too hot and going around and you have burning particles at the bottom of the of the fry bucket, you're automatically you're not gonna be in as good a shape as you uh would be um basically in any other circumstance. Uh I would I would get an in uh an induction burner, right, and use the induction burner as your as your fry kettle, because you can kind of set those uh fairly nicely uh and you can set them a little bit higher than you want and they'll kick in full blast when it when uh when they start uh cooling down, or you can just set it with the number.
+
+[7:26] I actually wouldn't thermostatically control it because those things, unless you have like a like uh the meld or some new thing that can control the induction uh accurately. The problem with uh the old induction uh temperature control things is it's based on a like a little um uh a thing embedded in the surface of the of the of the platon, which is not good for frying because it's it's too slow. Uh but anyway, an induction is nice and fast. You're not gonna have problems with uh ignition because you're not using it around an open flame, so it's inherently safer. And the thing is is you can get a much larger kettle of oil going with one of those things than you can with one of these countertop deep fryers because they're assuming that you wanna make like three French fries, and they're also assuming that you know that they're gonna get sued left right up down in the middle if they actually provided a fryer that was uh big enough to accomplish anything kind of reasonable.
+
+[8:14] Remember, when you're frying on a on a pot in in a kitchen, you want to be very careful to not overfill the the oil. I have a like an uh an astoundingly powerful range, and so I actually do a lot of my deep frying uh in New York in a wok. But I have a burner that can handle a wok. You know what I'm saying? And so uh you know, and the good thing about a wok is that as it starts boiling and exp even though it's shallow, as it starts boiling and expanding, the walk gets ever and ever larger.
+
+[8:40] So your odds of boilover in a wok are very, very low. And the solids, the burnt crap in a wok is like kind of uh condensed in kind of a little shallow spot in the bottom, and so I can scrape it out as I'm going. It's much harder in a regular pot to try to scrape that uh stuff out of the bottom. Now, if you also like uh Asian cooking and you know you're gonna ha live in a New York City apartment for a long time and you have your kitchen near a window, you might want to go invest in an actual uh wok burner, pro the induction walk burner. I've never personally used one, but I've heard that they're freaking sick, but they're expensive.
+
+[9:16] And the other trick is you might need 220. I think almost all of them are 220 because they're strictly pro, but they they throw off very little heat for the amount of power that they have, and they would probably make a good deep fryer. But I haven't seen a lot of people use it for that application. But that's what you know that's what I would be angling for if I knew that I couldn't beef up the gas because I didn't own the joint. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[9:35] Maybe you own the joint. I don't know. In which case, if you own the joint, put in a good freaking range. Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. And is the outdoor deep fryer actually worth spending all that money and time on?
+
+[9:47] Is it better, or should I just stick with the pot on the stove? It depends on how what your like innate love of frying is. Like frying is such like a part of me that like for me it's worth having. And if you're ever gonna do a party that's primarily fry for like 20 or 30 people, and you're gonna do that even like two or three times a year, then having a professional deep fryer that just stays rock solid at the temperature that you want and can bang and can bang out, you know, like like 10 pounds of fries an hour or better. That's not even that's nothing.
+
+[10:18] Like for a commercial fryer, that's nothing. For a home fryer, banging out 10 or 15 pounds of fries in an in an hour is a pain in the butt. And remember, when I'm doing it, I'm really doing more like I'll do like six pounds in like uh in like not that long, wait a while for the next flight, another six pounds, and it's the ability to just put a lot of product in and still maintain high quality of your oil that's the hallmark of one of these professional fryers, and you can get like on the websites, you can get a s a not not the best, I don't have the best one, but you can get like a stainless steel kettle, which is what you should go in for, tube fryer, uh for not that much, I think. I mean, it's expensive, but I think that I think you can get them under a grand. I think I spent less than a thousand on mine, and uh, and you know, you have to convert it to run off of a propane tank, and you can run them off of a 20 uh 20 uh pound uh propane tank.
+
+[11:08] No problem. Uh probably not when it's extremely cold. You'll probably have some problems then, but um you know, in normal kind of weather, you know, you you can run it for a good a good length of time off of a single 20-pounder, and it's freaking awesome. But you have to be extremely safe, you have to know you know, kind of your distance from your house and all this other kind of stuff. It's not something that you should do if you're not comfortable, like with uh you know, safety and like doing things to code.
+
+[11:36] Gotcha. Well, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much. All right, happy frying. Uh okay.
+
+[11:41] Uh you got another question that we didn't answer. Did we do the food safety one for uh duck confit? Read it. Okay. Hey Dave Nassasia, Jack and Co.
+
+[11:50] I have a food safety question for this week's show. I'm visiting my parents this weekend and found two bags of duck comfy in their second fridge. Second fridge. Sounds like uh second fridge. Yeah, I have like a bar for a hotel bar for it.
+
+[12:04] And you're thankful to have it. You like it. You love it. Anyway, go ahead. Then I made it Christmas.
+
+[12:11] Wait, she wait, they made the fridge for Christmas, the country was made at Christmas. Made at Christmas. Normally I'd an I'd have not problems serving comfy that's this old, but I looked and realized the jelly never got taken out of the bags like it would have been had I made the confit traditionally. I gave the duck legs a traditional overnight cure with salt and spices, then vacuum sealed them with duck fat using a food saver style sealer. They were then cooked at 80 or 85 Celsius for twelve hours, iced down quickly, and have been refrigerated ever since.
+
+[12:39] Because the jelly was still in the bag, I meant to transfer them to the freezer before I left at Christmas, but I guess I forgot and they're still in the fridge. The bags look like they still have a perfect seal on them, and there is no bloating or discoloration of or anything. That said, with traditional confit, I've always read that you need to remove the jelly for long-term storage. Would I be risking botulism or other contamination if I serve them? Would you serve them to your family?
+
+[12:59] Thanks, Jeremy. Okay. I would not throw away the confit. I'm just saying it's not in it's not in my soul to throw away the confit. But uh look, a lot depends on like kind of what your salt levels are and everything like this.
+
+[13:11] But the good news about botulism, the great news about botulism, and you also can't guarantee by the way that you don't have uh something bad growing in there uh just because it the pack hasn't uh is still tight. Like they don't they're not not all gonna produce gas and be your friend that w friend. In other words, be an indicator uh that way. However, good news about botulism is that botulism toxin is itself uh heat labile. You can destroy it.
+
+[13:37] So what I would do is I would just take those bags back up to like, you know, uh 180 or whatever, and let them ride for like uh or even lower, you don't even need it that high, and let them ride all the way through to redestroy all anything that grew in there, any bacteria that grew in there, and any um uh botulism uh toxin that's in there. Now they the th there are some uh heat stable, right? So you got your heat stable and your heat labile. Why the hell do they have them run? So stupid.
+
+[14:08] Stay by a labile. Stay by a labile, stable. Well, it's stupid. It's like it's like inflammable and flammable. They both mean that catches on fire.
+
+[14:15] That's the dumbest English. Like I love our language, but it's the dumbest. Anyway, so uh I like I d there are some uh heat stable uh enterotoxins, but I don't think that they're gonna grow in those situations. Is there any way, Rebecca? You while we're working, you can like do a quick uh Google audian on that thing and see whether or not uh there are any heat stable enterotoxins that'll grow in a vacuum bag.
+
+[14:39] Hey, or what about the chat room? Isn't that what the chat room's built for? Come on, chat room, hook me up. But yes, I would just heat the heck out, I would heat the heck out of it, and then I would I would I would eat it. Uh you know, also I would, you know, I would pretend that I'm trying to be nice and I would just eat a bag myself and wait a day to prove that I was still good and be like, no, I'll serve it to my family after I already ate that delicious crispy piece of comfy.
+
+[14:59] Don't you like what the comfy gets crispy on the outside? Love it. Love it. Do you know what I don't like it when people don't crisp up the outside of the skin enough on the comfy? It makes me so sad.
+
+[15:07] I guess. You know, I would crisp up the skin on uh V deep fry? Yeah. What? Oh, Searsol.
+
+[15:13] Wait, did you answer this one on Rose Roselle? We do have another collar though. Oh, caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, this is Zed from New York. How are you doing?
+
+[15:23] Good, how are you? All right. I I apologize in advance. I've been listening to your show from the beginning, and I'm only at episode 60, so these questions may have been asked recently. But uh well that's good, then I'll know the answer.
+
+[15:36] So um I I'm going apple fishing this weekend, and actually something I heard your show way back from you uh was someone called in asking about uh being able to basically cook a uh bake an apple kind of in its shell. So soaking a peeled apple in Novo shape or calcium lactate and then cooking it so that it's still crunchy on the outside but soft on the inside. Uh-huh. Um so modernist pantry stopped selling novo shape. So I got some calcium lactate.
+
+[16:02] Haven't been able to find any suggestions on what con what percentage to use, how long to soak it, whether I can do it in the oven. Um I don't have I um I don't have any too easy um capabilities, so um looking for some ideas on that, and then I have a second question too. Uh okay. Let me think. So okay.
+
+[16:26] So you want to strengthen the pectin using lactate without an enzyme. I mean, look, really I mean you could probably do calcium will do it. I'm just trying to think the best way. So you said you don't have a vacuum machine? I don't.
+
+[16:42] Yeah, I would just needle, I would just like very finely like needle prick the outside of it, make sure you're acidify it so it doesn't get all nasty, and then just uh, you know, exclude all the air in a zippy and let it soak for a while, and then do like a a quick a quick poach in the uh calcium to try to get it into the like low low temp pot so try to approach the temperatures that that people would use to do uh to do a pectin methylesterase reaction like the way Steingarden used to in potatoes and stuff like that. Um which I forget somewhere in the 60s, I think, or six sixties or low seventies or somewhere in there. Um you know, and then you can bring it up from there, but let it let it soak it in that bag to try to exclude all the air in the zippy and and do it that way and see whether or not you get uh you get a good uh reaction. Why'd they stop selling novo shape? Not enough people buying it?
+
+[17:31] Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Oh.
+
+[17:34] Come on, Modern's pantry. But I give it I I'll look into it again, but give that a try. I mean, like the th the things that people mainly use to to strengthen things aren't actually calcium lactate. They're using things like um calcium hydroxide, you know, uh pickling uh pickling lime. Um isn't that make it bitter, and you just have to soak enough out of it to keep it getting too bitter.
+
+[17:56] Yeah, so what you do is you soak it in that for uh a while or a while, and then uh you you take it, you take it out after after it's been cross-linked, and then you just have it with regular calcium, soak that stuff out and go. But that's what most people I mean, that's what pickling lime is for. Um I mean, and also the variety of apple that you use is going to is going to be I mean, so I you you could go, I think like, you know, the all of those ossified vegetable protocols are online and you could do this a similar thing with an apple, I would guess. Uh but then yeah, you just want to get the kind of the the na nastiness out. Right, right.
+
+[18:29] Cool. And then a second question was I'm planning on smoking and then frying a turkey. Uh-huh. Um wasn't didn't know if you've done that before, had any tips. There's not a ton.
+
+[18:41] I've watched a couple of videos online, but um not a ton of uh instructions in terms of how long and and temperatures for the smoking portion. Oh, for the oh, well, you mean you're gonna actually use the smoke as a cook? Yeah, I think I think that was the plan. I was trying to get it really smoky, but then so crazy, and then fry it for like 10, 15 minutes at the end. That's kind of most of what I read said like smoke it for two or three hours um and then fry it for like 15 minutes.
+
+[19:06] Um if if I mean what I look, I mean like I uh like uh how temperature control is your smoker, you can get a good temperature control? Yeah, yeah. It's one of these pellet um smokers that has a really accurate temperature control. I mean to five degrees. Oh, all right.
+
+[19:20] Well, the five degrees is good enough. So if you can maintain, I mean the thing is if if you're gonna deep fry it anyway, right, you could probably keep the moisture up and almost treat it like low temping smoke. You know what I'm saying? Some people do, or just get smoke it however you want, cook it through, cook it obviously at as low a temperature as you can to have it be uh cooked the way you want it. I like mine in the it's really okay to cook the breast and the leg at the same temperature as long as you're not overshooting by a lot.
+
+[19:45] In other words, like the ideal breast temperature for me is somewhere like sixty four, and the ideal uh leg temperature for me is somewhere like sixty-five, sixty-six. So you're you're talking a couple of degrees difference, but really if you uh if you dry salt the breast area, especially like on the inside and stuff, uh you can take it up to sixty-six and it's not gonna kill anything. You know what I mean? It's gonna not be quite as moist, but it'll still be fine. Uh and then uh I would just let that sucker cool, like I would pull it out, let it flash off in the air, right?
+
+[20:16] That's the trick. That's the trick to deep frying, is let it uh uh something that you've done uh low temp or anything else. Let the sucker, and you probably already are gonna get the surface tacky, right? Are you a pellicle guy when you smoke? Do you get a nice pellicle on stuff?
+
+[20:29] Um I I haven't really looked into it, looked at it too much in the past, but I I've read about it. Yeah, well anyway, I don't know. The trick is is that however, like however you smoke it, right? Before you deep fry it, you gotta pull it out when it's still warm and let the surface get dry. That's the secret to deep frying anything is to have the surface be not wet.
+
+[20:47] If you want to get a crisp uh surface on the outside, but you're not gonna need to fry it for 15 minutes because it's already cooked. So especially if you're gonna do it that same day, like I would jack the see. Most people when they're deep frying a turkey, what they're gonna do is they're gonna reduce the temperature of the oil, which is good for a safety thing, especially the way people deep fry it. People people are lunatics with their turkey. They'll have like a wet turkey, they'll stick it in, and then like you get like this geyser of oil, the oil sprays up, they've overheated it, it falls on their burner, and then all hell breaks loose, right?
+
+[21:16] But if you um if you are already have a cooked turkey, you don't need to go low. You can go up at regular fry temperatures. Now, this is also unsafe, but the way I do it, because I don't bust out the big turkey fryer, is uh I always do like kind of a ladle fry, so I'll I'll just ladle the hot oil over into a pot and keep it going. But that's its own that's its own bunch of um of uh safe safety concerns. But you shouldn't need 15 minutes on on the fry to get a nice uh crispy skin, so long as it's dry.
+
+[21:45] If it's wet, then you're gonna need to lower your temperature on the fryer and fry it longer to get a crisp skin. But remember, you're then you're also gonna have that dry, overcooked uh like uh couple of you know millimeters of uh meat all the way around. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.
+
+[22:00] Anyway, uh good luck with l uh tweet us back, let us know how it worked out. Yeah, for sure. Thanks. All right, cool. I have a Twitter question for you.
+
+[22:08] All right, what do you got? Well, there are a couple, but this one's exciting. Does Dave have any updates on his new Booker and Dax product announcement that you want to share? Uh I don't know. Let me think about towards a let me let me let me let me let me let me think on it.
+
+[22:21] Okay. What's the next what is your next question? Uh what his name is Nathan. He's headed to Mexico City in early March and wants to know what establishments he should visit for eating, drinking, and what he should bring back. Oh man, what you should bring back is you should you should bring back a nystomatic grinder and either a matate or or uh or mano if you have the if you're willing to bring it back.
+
+[22:46] Like if you're willing to look, if you've never been to Mexico before, I've only went once to real Mexico. The only other Mexicos I've been to has been like, you know, like Nogales and stuff, which no offense to Nogales or any border town for that matter, it's kind of like you know, not, you know, whatever. I'm not gonna say anything negative about Nogales hell hole. Uh but at least it was in the early 90s. I don't know maybe it's awesome now.
+
+[23:05] Rebecca you ever been to Nogales? I have not Liz can't say I have are you guys denizens of any Mexican border towns? Tijuana. How is it? Is it nice now or is it a hellhole?
+
+[23:17] Um I it was it was a horrible experience. I think I had to go to the bathroom in a bucket but that could be a grossly stereotypical statement. But it it happened. You went to the bathroom in a bucket huh I had to go and it was a long time to get past the border so girls gotta do what a girl's gotta do right was it a fancy bucket I think it was like a wooden bucket. Ooh that's kind of fancy that's kind of fancy that's kind of a strong statement you're like this bucket is made of wood.
+
+[23:40] I'm gonna poop vintage I'm gonna poop in it. That's awesome. I like that I you know I had the opposite experience well I didn't look I I didn't eat when I when I go to Nogales you're you know you're in and you're out because you're like visiting relatives in Arizona and you're just you're boom in and out but like uh uh in Mexico City I ate whatever in the hell I wanted and I was a hundred percent fine now of course I'm an animal Nastasia is fond of saying I am not a human being and so like I'm not like you should not you broke your foot yesterday. I broke my foot yesterday yes I broke my foot yesterday but that's a separate question. Uh anyway but the uh so what should you do?
+
+[24:14] You should get a Nixtomatic you need to go to uh Merced the market there's a craft market whose name I forget that you should go to that has actually some kind of uh good stuff you but you should go to you need to go to Merced like every day and when you go there you need to have uh this one lady whose name I forget, her squash blossom quesadillas are like, you know, sepiku worthy, like and they make you so angry, they make you so angry uh on the kind of how things work here in the U.S. And you realize when you have what she makes, or people of her ilk, uh, and she has the good mass and everything, but when you have it, you realize kind of why uh Mexican food is so terrible here. And it's because we aren't willing, I don't think, as a culture, to pay uh what it would cost to have an American make that style of food at that like level of ingredient quality here in the U.S. Do you know what I mean, Stas? It's like it's like we we calculated it because I showed you the pictures.
+
+[25:15] How much how much how much money would what each one of those quesadillas would cost? Oh, like twenty dollars per quesadilla. Yeah, right. And you have to hire like a fancy, and then a fancy like chef who's gonna charge you $20 for a quesadilla is gonna like fancify it up, and then it won't be the same kind of like simple, awesome thing that you just like, you know, like can eat until you plots over there. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[25:35] And so I think it's like you're caught, you're caught in this kind of situation where it's almost almost impossible to do kind of just straight-ahead stuff at the same quality that they do down down there. I don't know, I don't know, it's great. Anyway, go to Merced. Uh, and uh I uh people in the Twitter verse here, come up with some good freaking things. And if I'll ask Fabulous too, you should ask Fabulous, who uh, you know, Fabian von Howski from Contra.
+
+[25:58] He is from Mexico City. So I don't know. Anyway. Uh whoa. The Mac someone's Mac died and came back to life again.
+
+[26:07] All right, Stas, you got any uh did you answer this Roselle uh hibiscus? Habiscus? Yeah. No, give me the question. Okay.
+
+[26:13] I have a one-pound bag of Rosella flower pod in the hibiscus family that I got from a local farm share in Houston. I'm interested in if you have any suggestions on how to preserve, use them in cocktails, as well as any suggestions on cocktails that would accentuate their character. Liquid Intelligence is lacking any mention of hibiscus unless it was mentioned on the one of the 10 pages that have been torn out of the Houston Public Library's copy. I've seen eight ounce jars of Roselle pods in syrup sell for as much as ten dollars and plan on preserving some that way, but don't know if these pods would have to be prepared in any way being emerged in a roselle syrup. I'm traveling to New York next week and I'm looking forward to checking out Booker and Dax.
+
+[26:52] Cheers, Jamie from Houston. Hey Jamie from Houston. Um I've never gotten the uh I've never used fresh. I only have ever used uh the dry. Uh I've used the I've had the ones in syrup.
+
+[27:03] I'm presuming that they just preserve them by boiling them in a in a sugar syrup. That's that's how they do them. But I have made a Booker and Dax, and in fact, there might still be on the menu, uh, depending on how they feel right now. Uh it goes in and out of the menu, a hibiscus uh drink. Now, hibiscus tea is obviously uh, you know, the non-alcoholic drink is hugely popular, and it's also very popular in in cocktails.
+
+[27:27] Uh what it brings, hibiscus is like a like obviously besides its awesome color because Lord knows I love a pink drink, right? Yep. Yeah, I love a pink drink. Uh people out there when I say people, I mean like people who are worried about drinking pink drinks. Like, why are you so worried about drinking a pink drink?
+
+[27:42] You do you know a lot of dudes that are worried about drinking pink drinks? I in theory, yeah. I do know. The thing is, like I maybe like when I was like 20, I would have been like, I'm not gonna order the pink drink. I want to look manly.
+
+[27:53] Now I'm like, wow, I wow, I don't care what you think about what I drink. Like, that's the advantage of getting older, and I guess being a drinks professional is I can really order whatever in the hell I want at any time, and no one's gonna give me crap for it. Isn't that nice? Hey Rebecca, what do you think of people that order uh like like a man that orders a pink drink? What do you think?
+
+[28:12] I think I would like to shake his hand. Yeah, Liz, what are your thoughts? Takes a brave man to order a pink drink, but I'm sure there are plenty of really tasty pink drinks out there that even a guy can appreciate. Oh, many, many, many. Many, many.
+
+[28:26] Anything with comparison. Yeah, yeah, Pink Panther, Booker Deb. Although it's not freaking pink, Derek. The pink, the onion one. Oh, the Debbie.
+
+[28:34] Look, what I'm saying is you gotta get over it, you gotta get over the color thing. You have there's three women here telling you that you should not worry about it. Uh and you know what the problem is is that you have to rock it. If you order the pink drink, you can't be like, I'm sorry, about the rank. I ordered it.
+
+[28:51] Nobody likes someone who is sheepish about the stuff that they uh uh that they have that they order, right? It's like the same thing with clothing, right? Like you see the one dude with a peacock feather sticking out of his head, but if he rocks it, he rocks it. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.
+
+[29:04] Anyways. Uh on the hibiscus. One of the issues with hibiscus and alcoholic drinks is it can be slightly uh astringent. The way that the acidity works, it can be a little bit uh much in the back end. So when we use hibiscus, uh, we do infusions directly into the liquor and then we milkwash it.
+
+[29:19] So you just use uh do a direct infusion of the uh hibiscus slash roselle slash uh whatever you want to uh call it uh into the liquor, uh like a gin or a vodka is nice. Uh have we done rum? I don't know if we've done rum. And then uh just do a milk wash on it, and it'll suck some of that stuff uh out. And the milk washing technique is in liquid intelligence, and then it it mixes like a like a champ.
+
+[29:42] Drink, drink, drink, champ. I'm gonna drink champ. Uh, for those of you who like that song. We have one minute. Uh, one freaking minute.
+
+[29:48] Alright, uh I'll tell you a quick story. Alan, Alan from Apple from uh from the UK. We need to talk about apples, but I'll give you a couple an apple thing. I've also an update. Okay, Nastassi and I, if Booker and Dax are working on a centerfuge for home.
+
+[29:59] I'll get let you I'll just say that. And this this weekend, I have an interesting cider technique that uh I came up with um because I have this apple tree that I didn't know. So I I I I use the centrifuge on the on the apples to spin out all the extra yeast, and it's good. I also my apple, my cider technique is kind of crazy, so like we can talk about it next week if if we have time. But I'll leave you with this one story.
+
+[30:23] It's kind of cooking related because uh look like I I like uh in the wintertime I cook with wood in my wood stove, right? Okay, so there we go. Wood cutting. So these freaking uh so you know what a like a log jack is? You know, like it's like a cant hook that fits into the like a head like clips onto the log and you roll the log over so the log's off the ground, right?
+
+[30:41] And so that you can chainsaw into it and and have your logs come off, right? Right? Right. So and by the way, the moral of this story in case that I forget at the end, the moral of the story is is it it's a poor craftsman that buys crappy tools, right? It's a poor craftsman that buys crappy tools.
+
+[30:56] Now, if you're gonna buy a tool, use it once, and then never use it again, then roll the dice and buy a crappy tool. But if you if you plan on using it all the time and you buy a crappy tool, you're a dunce. I'm a dunce. So anyway, so I buy this log jack, I buy the cheap one, which is weird. I spent like you know, like months trying to figure out what chainsaw I was gonna get.
+
+[31:13] I got an old like professional husk of varn I used, very good price, anyways. So uh so this log jack, right? The first time I use it, it bends. I'm like crap. And so like that now I'm going down, I need to start cutting firewood because it's fall, right?
+
+[31:26] So I put the log jack on, I put and it won't pull the log over Sarah anymore. So the log keeps flopping down, right? So here's what I do. Here's what I do. This is this is teaching me.
+
+[31:36] This is this is the world teaching me not to be a dunce. So I take the log jack and I jam it down, and I'm like, I'm so I cut a small log off that I can get to without burying my bar into the ground and dulling my blade. And I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I have uh, you know, the mask on and everything. I'm gonna put the, I'm gonna put the log jack down, I'm gonna sit on it, sit on it in a freaking log pile and brush. I'm gonna sit on this freaking log jack.
+
+[32:00] Already people who do this for a living know I'm a jerk. And like, and I'm gonna shove this piece of log under it so that the log itself can act as its own log jack, right? But I'm like, all of a sudden, as I'm down on the ground, my butt on the ground, and I'm shoving a log underneath of a pile that I've just lifted off the ground that hasn't been lifted off the ground in years, because this was a blowdown from Sandy that I'm trying to chop up for some reason it hasn't rotted yet. And I see on the inside of my helmet, uh like a hornet or a yellow jacket, and then all of a sudden my body goes on fire. Now I've got chaps on, I've got a protective helmet, and they have zoomed out of the ground up into my clothes and all in my helmet, and I throw the helmet up and I'm running up the driveway, like trying to unbuckle my chaff, my chaps around my ankles, slapping my head, slapping my back.
+
+[32:45] I got like I got like 15 bites from these suckers. And I was just like, you're on freaking fire, and the entire way up, at first I start screaming for someone to come help me like rip my clothes off, and then I'm like, idiot, why did I buy the bad logjack? Why did I buy the bad freaking logjack? And I could not retrieve my helmet for two days because I disturbed their nest so much that I couldn't get anywhere near that freaking helmet. My wife went down to look at the helmet and she got stung.
+
+[33:13] Just getting near the freaking helmet. So I poisoned the hell out of the helmet and I can get it next week. But my point is don't buy the crappy tool. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[33:44] You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[34:07] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Hi there. I'm Greg from Capal. Visit us at Kapow.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less. C-U-P-P-O-W.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd.
+
+[0:14] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. On time.
+
+[0:42] On time, you may call in your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined in uh the studio uh as usual with Nastasia. The hammer Lopez. We got you gonna say anything?
+
+[0:56] Hi. We got uh we got J Mall Jacking Molecules, Jack Insley back in the engineering booth today. Whoa, there we go. Mike wasn't working. I'm back.
+
+[1:05] Yeah, yeah. And uh where where'd you go? Um should I tell this story now? This is actually a really good story. Yeah, well then wait, because you gotta wait till the show's over if you want to tell an actual good story.
+
+[1:14] And we also got uh we got uh Rebecca on uh on the mic, who is the uh the uh what's your title there, Rebecca? Um Captain of Social Media. Captain, huh? Is that Stas? Is that your idea?
+
+[1:26] I like that. No. Rebecca, that's he's Captain. Yeah, I just made it up. So, like then who's Teneal?
+
+[1:32] Is Jack Teneal? My Teneal. Oh, a good show name is Captain and Chenil, and she's like making quilts and stuff. Oh, that's very strong. Is that yours?
+
+[1:41] No, somebody else's. Yeah, Captain and Sh Captain and Chenille. But he's making the quilts. Right, yeah, that's right. He's the captain.
+
+[1:48] Yeah, the captain. Is he alive? Yeah. Yeah, all right. Uh is that a call?
+
+[1:53] We got a call, or is that just like someone ordering pizza? One second, Dave. Anyway. So we've got two callers on the line. I'm gonna make them wait real quick so I can get this story out of the way.
+
+[1:59] All right. So I was so I was flown out to Madison by the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board to go on a cheese tour and towards some cheesemaking facilities. Uh they are a supporter of Heritage Radio. So I decided with an extra day in town to go drive over to Milwaukee. Nice just to check it out.
+
+[2:20] So I uh I drive to Milwaukee. I kind of do my my research, see what the best bar is. I go to this bar, Bryant's, which is like um, you know, a prohibition era uh bar that has like a 500 drink menu. You can't order, you just tell them what kind of spirit you like, they make you a drink, they won't tell you what's in it, that kind of thing. I ask the bartender for advice, and he's like, Oh, you should go check out this red light ramen thing.
+
+[2:43] It starts at 11 30. So uh 11 30 at night, I wait in line to go for ramen. The bartender finds me and he goes, Oh man, I gotta bring into the front of the line. So he introduces me to the chef. This place is called Ardent by day, and then red light ramen at night.
+
+[2:56] And the chef Justin is like, Holy shit, you're jacking the booth from cooking issues. Oh, nice. And the whole kitchen, apparently, uh, big supporters, big listeners. He points to a slushy machine, he's like, This is my old fashioned slushy. I called into the show, and Dave's advice is is why this drink is here.
+
+[3:14] How was it? How was the drink? It was damn good. Nice. I might have had a few too many, but it was it was damn good.
+
+[3:19] Um so lots of cooking issues, love in Milwaukee. It was pretty awesome. Yeah, major love to Milwaukee. Yeah. Milwaukee, nice place.
+
+[3:26] We like Justin, Aaron, and Matt there, all awesome. I've only spent in my life, and maybe it's Monastasia's yours as well, four four hours of our lives in Toto in Milwaukee. But they were a very good four hours. Right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[3:39] That was like the same for me. Yeah, it was really in and out, but it was really, really good. I like it. Milwaukee, nice town. And then a quick shout out, of course, to Johnny Hunter and all the underground meats people that I got to meet in Madison.
+
+[3:48] You never met them? You met Johnny? I met Johnny, but I didn't get to meet everybody else. They were all big listeners of cooking issues there. Yeah, they're they're nice.
+
+[3:54] They they're uh they got a really cool setup out there, too. Yeah, the beverage director at Four Quarter, his name's slipping away from me, but a big big listener, awesome dude. Just all around great stuff. Nice. I got to see them making their black garlic in a crock pot, too.
+
+[4:06] Yeah, well, Johnny was the one that told me that you can go higher than everyone said on black garlic, and it tastes like a little bit different, but it's like a boat ton faster. Yeah, exactly. You know, so he's doing his black garlic at a much higher temperature than other people. And like old beat up crock pot. Well, is there any other kind?
+
+[4:23] I guess they still make crock pot. By the way, I shouldn't we shouldn't keep the collar waiting, but listen, I gotta tell you this. There's like there's this uh like uh one of these websites that sells crap on the internet. In fact, they sell I think the egg thing, maybe that Paul gave us. But they also sell this thing called like uh Wolfwasher 360, which is a hula hoop with water that you wash your dogs.
+
+[4:41] But they have a cookbook they sell, get this dump meals. Oh, yeah, dump dump meals. Wow, you just want to dump it in, dump. Why would you want any meal called dump? I gotta go take a dump.
+
+[4:53] It's your meal. Right? Why would you ever want to do that? Yeah. Someone should try it though.
+
+[4:57] It's like literally, it's uh, what was the recipe that they say on the commercial? It is a pork shoulder, a Dr. Pepe, Dr. Pepper, Pepe Pepe, Doctor. Dr.
+
+[5:05] Pepe, I like Peppy. Well, it's what it is. It peps you, it peps it peps your brain and peps your butt. Dr. Peppy.
+
+[5:11] So they got the uh Dr. Pepper and I think barbecue sauce, and you throw it in, but no pre-browning, nothing. Just like a like an unbrowned pork shoulder in the in the crock pot. So we're about to take a collar, but before we take the collar, we have joining us now in the studio, uh Don Lee. Uh have a seat, gentlemen.
+
+[5:29] Don Don Lee, um, cocktail overlord, you say accurate, cocktail overlord. And a father Bill Daly from uh the uh Yeah from uh Notre Dame Law School Notre Dame, but also uh hold on a second here uh Don have a seat. Uh I mean I don't want to call I don't want to call you like I don't want to call you the cocktail priest, but you you do, you know, you you you know like all the major players in the cocktail world and you you know you don't overindulge in the cocktail, but you enjoy uh, you know, you enjoy the uh the cocktail, right? I enjoy it very much. Yeah.
+
+[6:06] I try not to overindulge. Yeah, well, and I've you know s I look, uh I have seen him many times at Tales of the Cocktail, our our yearly debauched down in uh in New Orleans, and I can uh say firsthand that Fat Father Father Bill always has control over the situation. But let me take a caller real quick before we get. I'd put them both on. Oh, they're literally both on the both ear.
+
+[6:34] Whoa, all right, so start. Not a cocktail-y question. The other one is. Well, no, I don't care. We'll take all questions.
+
+[6:43] I mean, uh, you know, Don and Father Bill like to eat too. Right on. Mine's a turduck in question. Oh, nice, okay. Go ahead.
+
+[6:49] Where are you from, first of all? Uh from DC. My name's Jason. Hey, Jason. All right.
+
+[6:54] So last year was maybe like my fourth production, and did it roughly along the line of Kenji's method, which is uh, you know, chicken and duck and then in the water bath for a few hours, and then um try to render and crisp the duck skin and then put it in the turkey food and roast it for an hour. Um I took the duck I took the chicken skin off and had some pork and rabbit sausage in there too. So anyway, what I'm looking to improve is mostly the texture of the uh duck skin. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you are.
+
+[7:29] Yeah. And is it worth taking it out completely? And then and then just I don't know, using some of the duck fat somewhere else in the thing. Yeah, I mean, yes. The p th you're never gonna I mean I always do skin I always do in my internal birds uh skinless because it's never gonna be crisp.
+
+[7:49] Now look, there are whole cultures that love like a highly rendered uh like nasty I wish that's not the way I don't mean to put nasty, like bird skin. Like think like uh Hanese chicken or something like this. It's gonna have a like a rubbery, gooey, gluey, and that's the deal. That's what but most Americans like I can I can train myself to love that because that's who I am, right? I can be like but it's the same way that Americans can't stand apples that have different textures from what they're used to, they can't stand poultry skins that have different textures from what they're used to.
+
+[8:21] That's especially the case with duck. Like especially the case with duck. So I think that pretty much you're gonna be hosed unless you you could do the old uh modernist technique of taking a dog brush to the duck and l instead of doing the um the low temp, you could do an actual roast on it, cool it down, then throw it inside the turkey skin. It won't be crunchy anymore, duh, but it won't have the giant fat cap underneath because it will have rendered out uh a lot of its uh fat. You know, you know, but otherwise duck skin is such an amazing thing, like to do anything like you know evil to it is like harmful to the world in general I think like um just duck cracklings put it in your uh stuffing mix it in there you go that's a good one render it out and sprinkle it on the salad that you serve with it because that's gonna be delicious right salt this yeah now is there any way to get uh of like the to get the transglutaminase to glue the the duck and the I mean the duck and the turkey together oh absolutely oh yeah do it I mean even after it's cooked so you're pre cooking your duck and then wrapping the turkey body around by the way like listen just from a technical standpoint you're overcooking the duck now that not as like not as far as like an old school European i is concerned but as far as like a modern person is concerned you're overcooking the duck.
+
+[9:40] Am I right? No it was well I mean I did it around 140 in the water bath it was pretty good. Oh sixty so you just did a really really rare chicken. Yeah the chicken was you know right the chicken was also not overcooked. Right no but the chicken for most people that's gonna be way under for a chicken is my point.
+
+[10:00] Most people aren't going to want the chicken until it gets up to about 63 but most people are going to want the duck somewhere between 57 and 58 somewhere in that range. Okay. Well by that standard the duck was probably overcooked a couple of degrees the chicken might have been under a degree. It's fine. Look it's all fine if people like the way it tastes but I just my feeling is that the chicken is going to be a little translucent still at that temperature is it?
+
+[10:24] Uh you know frankly I don't remember. I mean if you can stand a three stepper I would make a tube out of the chicken, do that thing at like sixty-three, sixty sixty-four, even 63, sixty-three, sixty-four. Then transglutaminates the outside, wrap the then you can do it when it's still warm. Wrap the uh wrap the duck around that, do that sucker at like fifty-seven, fifty-eight. You can do it at sixty, one forty.
+
+[10:47] It's actually a perfectly good duck, but it's it's no longer depends. If you want that really rosy red, medium rare duck, then you need to be at 57 for like an hour. Uh but if you want like higher temp duck is legitimate, and that's the way that like a lot of old school people will cook the duck, they won't have it rare anyway. A lot of old Frenchies don't like really rare duck. In which case, by the way, like the temperature you're doing 60, perfectly acceptable.
+
+[11:09] I don't want to, I don't want to be, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Like that's perfectly acceptable. It's just most modern Americans who are uh serving a duck breast a breast rosy rare will want it lower, right? Uh but but that's not what you're doing here. So ignore my other and so you can cook that uh at that temper.
+
+[11:26] I think sixty three or sixty four is a little high for it, though, right? So you could do the initial chicken at like sixty-three, or you could just invert them. You could put the duck on the inside. Sure. That's another option for you.
+
+[11:37] Anyways, and then yeah, I would cut the duck skin off, and then I would render it out as Don said, that was Don by the way, uh, in crackling form. And I seen Don put away many duck cracklings in my life. Many, many. Many, many. The many ducks have been have been uh slaughtered for to you know, not even say Don's duck crackling uh I converted a vegetarian of I think seven years back to meat uh cooking duck cracklings in college door.
+
+[12:00] That was uh John de Berry. John DeBerry was a vegetarian. When I met him, he was a vegetarian, at the end of the day. Beverage director of Mambafuku. Yeah.
+
+[12:07] Yeah. Anyways. Uh is this helpful at all? Bo, oh, gluing the transglutaminates. Can I put it in the fridge before I put the turkey food on it?
+
+[12:16] Or should I do it all warm still and not re-thirm it before I put the turkey skin on? Oh, well, okay. So as long as there's no way for product to get into it, it's fine if it if it's uh if it's you know, if you cool it down, because uh if you've cooked it long enough you've pasteurized everything in the inside of it. I mean the the the kind of real uh you know danger happens when um you have mixtures that can get recontaminated as they're cooling and then they cool down uh or if there's big air gaps or or whatnot. But um you know I think you should be you should be fine uh if it's all heated all the way through and and safe.
+
+[12:54] Like the super danger obviously is like the person who puts cold stuffing into a bird and then shoves uh said bird in the oven and it takes like four hours for the stuffing to get up to temperature and by the time that happens all sorts of nasty enter toxins have been created that you know you know that that's what you don't want to do. But I don't know if you can do that you're gonna be you're gonna be fine. Alright cool. I like the rabbit sausage. Uh yes and no.
+
+[13:24] Like if you're taking a sausage and you're um you mean like cube, not like once it's rendered obviously it's a nightmare, right? Unless it's an emulsified sausage. Are you doing an emulsified sausage? Well I no I was gonna make a chunky sausage and and stuff it in there with all the the rest of the meat. You can add some but just be aware that if it's been rendered already that it's gonna bleed out like quickly.
+
+[13:48] Yeah. You know what I mean? So if you're you know if you're doing a uh a low temp one i it you know you you could get away with using other fat I mean look someone on tw in the in the Twitter universe over here like you know, write back and say that I'm wrong. You've done it eight billion times, and here's how to do it. Uh and you know, Rebecca and Jack can tell me whether anyone t you know chimes in on that one.
+
+[14:08] But um that's my that's my feeling. I've made duck. Josh says don't use duck fat and dry sausage. No bueno. Yeah.
+
+[14:15] Yeah. I I mean I I yeah. I've used portions of duck uh you know, I've made like duck hot dogs and stuff, but I usually supplement it with like pork fat, and I'm using unrendered stuff when I go in, or if it's emulsified, you know, you can get away with it, but not in a chunky uh sitch, I don't think. Are you tweet us back and let us know how it works? Okay, we'll do.
+
+[14:34] Cool, thanks. Thanks a lot. You know, we used to do an entirely second caller's still there. Oh second caller, you're on the air. They left.
+
+[14:42] They hate us so much. It was a long wait. It was a long way. It was too long to wait. That was my fault.
+
+[14:46] I'll take that one. Yeah, sorry about that. Uh we used to do a low temperature Turduckin uh but I think it was a little too low temp for everyone because it was kind of like on the rare side all the way through. The idea we when we were doing it was we lined up all the birds in the order they wanted to temperature wise be cooked to. So turkey wants the highest temp, chicken wants the next highest temp, duck wants the next highest temp, and we threw a squab in, which by the way, squab delicious wants the lowest temp.
+
+[15:12] And so like uh 'cause why stop with turducking? It's just because they don't have uh s squabs, I guess, much in in you know, Louisiana. They could. I mean they have all kind of small game birds. They could be shoving some sort of grouse in the middle.
+
+[15:25] That would be good. How about a little order lawn in the very center? Well, that's more French man. I guess they're French E, but they're not French. All right, we got the second caller back.
+
+[15:32] Second caller, you were on the air. Hi Dave, this is Andrew from Pittsburgh. Hey, how you doing? Um long time listener. Um I've got a couple questions.
+
+[15:40] Just stop me if it's too many. Um first question was like two or three years ago. Someone who was trying to do the the the caramelic little pieces that come out of a sweet potato, like the delicious brown pieces. Right. Oh, the little the little like I ever get back to you with how we figured out how to do it.
+
+[15:55] Because he I think he did it once but didn't remember how he did it. Wait, he wait, he's trying to harvest the little beads of syrup that get crunchy on the outside of a sweet potato. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, but he had somehow figured out how to do it in like a pressure cooker, but he'd only done it once and never repeated the rest the results from what I heard. Did you did that strike a bell at all?
+
+[16:12] No, I don't I made once I uh my pressure cooker, like the one that I go to bed crying about every once in a while is I made a durian caramel in a pressure cooker once by accident and didn't record enough of the information to ever be able to do it again. Gotcha. And that I still uh you're making me sad even thinking about it because like if I could have nailed that recipe, like and that's why you should always write down what you do, but no, do Stas, is that ringing the bell in sweet potatoes? Must have been a long time ago. Yeah, it was a long, long time ago.
+
+[16:43] But yeah, I don't know. I was thinking I was thinking uh adding some amylase to it, um blending up the sweet potato and then pressure cooking it. Do you think that could and then possibly lowering the I'm sorry, raising the pH um to see if you could get like just to really jazz up the myart on it with that? Right, but I mean closer working? The crunchy stuff is mainly a sugars thing, right?
+
+[17:06] So they the adding the base is uh I forget what it's gonna do to the sugar, but it's definitely gonna up the myard if in fact it's my art that you're that you're shooting for. Um hitting a sweet potato with amylase will increase the sweetness to the detriment of the starch, but I don't know. I don't know what that'll I don't know what that'll get for you except for maybe increasing the yield. I look, I've tried to make sweet potato cocktails by jacking with amylase, and I've never had any luck. Uh never had any luck.
+
+[17:37] Don, you ever had any luck with sweet potato in the cocktail? Never worked with it in a cocktail. Yeah, I tried. Uh well, in other words, but that's my that's the only amylase thing. I've also tried I tried once.
+
+[17:46] Um I tried once uh using um the kind of endogenous amylae stuff in uh in a sweet potato, uh doing like the uh pre-cook, like the long low pre-cook. Again, I didn't feel like I made them that much sweeter. You know, you can make a carrot a good bit sweeter by cooking it below the pectin softening temperature for uh a long time. But I I never had a lot of luck with a sweet potato perceptively. In other words, I'm sure it did boost its s sweetness, but I wasn't like best sweet potato I've ever made my whole life.
+
+[18:16] You need to do this all the time. You know what I mean? When we say sweet potato though, are we talking like Asian sweet potatoes? We're talking American sweet potato here, Don. You roast it, you know, it turns really sweet.
+
+[18:26] You can you can even chop it up and deep fry it. It gets nice and crunchy, get a little mayard on the outside. Do you like sweet potato fries? Are you one of those people? Not the yellow American kind of sweet potato fries, but uh a traditional Korean Chinese hybrid dish uh as a dessert is chunks of the kind of the Japanese uh purple on the outside, white on the inside, sweet potato chunked up, deep fried.
+
+[18:47] Delicious. Yeah. I don't like I'm gonna go out on a limb here and get everyone mad at me. I don't really I I can eat sweet potato fries. I like two of them.
+
+[18:57] I tire of them quickly compared to a like, you know, a an Irish potato, we'll call it, even though they're not from Ireland. French fry. You know what I mean? I'm with you on that. Yeah, Stas?
+
+[19:08] Stas hates all French fries. That's that's it. She doesn't hate them, she's not a fan. She just needs some champagne to go with it. Yeah.
+
+[19:13] Yeah, then you then you'll eat it. Dave, how do you probably dipped in mimple soda? Healthy and responsible choice compared to regular fries. Because they seem more adult. Wait, what seems more adult?
+
+[19:22] I think people order them in restaurants because the sweet potato fry seems like, oh, that's uh something you would put on an adult dinner plate, sweet potato, as opposed to the French fry. But aren't you supposed to be it was Father Bill? Aren't you supposed to be like optimistic about human nature as opposed to so pessimistic that that's how shallow we all are? I guess they need to be taught. That's why you're a priest.
+
+[19:43] That's right. Instruct the ignorant. It's a it's a qu it's a spiritual work of mercy. Yeah, there you go. Rebecca, what were you saying?
+
+[19:49] Do you like to eat your sweet potato fries when you dip it in maple syrup? Because that's what I like to do. I'm sure that's good. Like you can make a good dessert, I'm sure, with a sweet potato. Here's the problem.
+
+[19:58] Sweet potato fry never has the proper texture of a French fry. And it's got that sweet potato taste, which I find better as a kind of a roasted kind of a situation. Like I'm not hating on sweet potatoes. I love sweet potatoes. Uh I just don't think the fries that the best, it's it's like they very rarely have the right kind of crust to interior ratio.
+
+[20:15] They ha very rarely have the right uh um oil to potato ratio, and it I there's something deeply not the best about them. Um I also I'm gonna go on record and uh prep people everywhere will know what I'm talking about. I detest uh peeling and cooking sweet pot uh cutting sweet potatoes. I hate cutting sweet potatoes. I hate the noise my knife makes when it goes through a sweet potato.
+
+[20:40] I hate the way that like they shatter like right when you're like two thirds of the way through the freaking sweet potato. There's nothing about fabricating uh sweet potatoes in the kitchen that I enjoy. Nothing. That's because you're using yams. Use real sweet potatoes, and it's not a problem.
+
+[20:54] Whatever, man. You know what I you know what's the worst thing ever? Like my favorite Nastasia moment right after she started working with us was uh we had those uh those naimyo, those like long, slimy like sweet potato eat things, you know what I'm talking about, Don? Those yeah, nag what are they? Nagmo, nine, what are they called?
+
+[21:08] You grind up and then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're basically a mucilaginous nightmare. And let me just put it this way. Their shape is suggestive.
+
+[21:17] Suggestive. And so we had one peeled. It was all it was all it was a bunch of, it was one of those days when it was mostly dudes in the kitchen that day. And so we peeled one, and Nastasi goes to pick it up. It's all slime, it's all slimy, picks it up, shoots this suggestive thing across the kitchen because she squeezed on the tapered end of it too hard.
+
+[21:37] It hits the wall and shatters into a million pieces, and all the dudes were like, uh, I'm dropping the I'm dropping that last caller. We have a follow up. Rebecca's got a follow up. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[21:53] Um we had to ask you. What's going on? Um, hold on, I gotta get it. I'm sorry. All right, well.
+
+[22:01] So Sean Andrews wants to know how do you make the sweet potato fries crispy like you were talking about, and could you do it in the oven? I don't look, I'm gonna say I haven't worked on it enough to know. Uh, because like I had look, to take on a problem, I have to love the problem. Do you know what I mean? Like now this is a good problem.
+
+[22:20] Uh in the sense that like like I understand what you're trying to say. Was that Andrew wrote in? Uh look, I understand what you're trying to say. What you're trying to say is, hey, look, there is something to salvage, right? There is something savable, as Father Bill might say, in the sweet potato French fry.
+
+[22:36] I haven't seen a glimmer of it enough to devote the time and energy necessary to actually suss that out and figure out whether that is uh like r really there. There's a couple of problems. Generally, things that are deep fried, certain exceptions, donuts, blah blah blah, don't want to be as sweet as that because you can't get the crust formation without uh burning the sugars involved, right? So uh you you're gonna have a very high percentage of uh sugar on the exterior, but you not only need to cook it to a brown, which you know, trivial, you could do that with, but you need to dehydrate it to the point where you actually have a good texture. So, what I would do if I was gonna do it, and I didn't talk about my lace, by the way, I'm turning as I get older, I get lazier and lazier and lazier.
+
+[23:24] You know what I do now? On the weekends, first of all, it's gonna seem like I'm not talking about the same thing, but I am. Uh so my younger son, Dax, has decided that he is actually a child of the 1970s, and so requests baked potato bars as a dinner thing. Yeah, it's good, it's really delicious. And so I've been like slamming like the the big baking potatoes out of the oven, you know, prick it with a fork, rub it with oil, salt, throw it in the oven for an hour, like 70s.
+
+[23:53] You know, big pile of fix-ins to go with it. Strangely, Dax chooses vegetarian chili, but whatever, I'm not gonna judge. It's his 70s, you know. You know, I live the actual 70s, but you know, whatever, we'll deal with his version of the 70s. And uh, and so anyway, I've started just making an extra five potatoes when I do it.
+
+[24:11] And if you just take a properly baked sweet pot uh prop a properly baked regular Irish potato, Russet, Burbank, good old fashioned America, Idaho, and you uh throw it in the fridge. So remember, baking it, you haven't added any water, you've actually dehydrated it some, you've cooked all the starch out so it's fluffy, you put it in the fridge and let it sit for a day. Now you can cut it properly. That stuff fries up amazingly well. Like amazingly well.
+
+[24:39] So, you know, because you've done a lot of the moisture management and pre-cook when it's still in its potato form. And is it as good as my hardcore French fry stuff? No, but I end up just discing it, making home fries, and like that kind of a home fry, I have to say, they're uh they're really good. Now, back to your sweet potato problem. Could you do something like that with a sweet potato?
+
+[24:58] Perhaps. Perhaps you could roast a sweet potato whole, uh, chill it, fabricate it, uh, and now and let it dry let the outside dry off, like partially dehyd a little bit, like just in the air, and then fry it. Could you get a good result? I'm not gonna say you can't. You know how people get a good f result with sweet potatoes or what they call a good result?
+
+[25:15] They cheat and they batter those suckers, which is why there's so many battered sweet potato products out there, because then you separated the problem of trying to create a crust in an impossible place, the surface of a sweet potato, and you've instead shifted it to can I make a good crust on the outside? And obviously you can. Obviously, that's possible. I was just gonna say Japanese uh sweet potato tempura. Yeah, although don't get me started on tempura, all right?
+
+[25:37] Have you ever had tempura that was like a drop that sweet potato call and get to the next guy because we're backed up here. Alright, alright. But have you ever had a good uh you ever had a good uh tempura? Really good? I still haven't been to that new tempera bar like that place that just opened up here.
+
+[25:50] Here's the thing they're like, well, you know, you need to have it right away. No, why? No, no, it's just a uh no, no, tempura is delicious, but is it the is it the height of frying? It is not. It's the height of tempura.
+
+[26:05] It's height of tempura, it's its own thing. But I'm never in other words, like that like that like the the kind of Japanese ideal of like the incredibly blonde, non browned crust uh that's good for ex exactly the amount of time so like most and I've had good tenpura. Most of it by the time it's cold enough to eat with like it's already crap. You know what I mean? Anyway, we have a collar?
+
+[26:29] Do we have a code? What if you did a shoestring sweet potato? Hard to fabricate. That's what I'm saying. Like shoestrings are so hard to fabricate.
+
+[26:38] You could probably pulp a sweet potato and then make some sort of like Pringle esque kind of a situation. Are you a Pringles fan? Sure. Yeah. You can't stop.
+
+[26:45] Oh wow, it's true. What about you, Don Pringles? I like using the you can to make a cantana. What's a cantana? What's a cantana?
+
+[26:52] So Wi-Fi range ext extender? Holy crap, Don. Don Don, like Don is is his own Mofi. He plugs his phone into his forehead when he runs out of battery juice. What about you, Stas?
+
+[27:03] Pringles? You know what I don't like about the Pringle? I like them. They're good. There's something about the texture, like scraping on the roof of my mouth.
+
+[27:10] There's something about the texture. I know what you mean. They're good. I like them. And you know, that was one of the most fantastically expensive uh things ever in terms of food R D.
+
+[27:20] I think it was it was Procter and Gamble came up with the uh pr the patents on it and it apparent take forever. Whatever. Do we still have the collar that's been waiting? I don't know. Caller?
+
+[27:30] Collar. Are you caller? Are you on the air? No. Okay.
+
+[27:35] Oh, you're here. I was just gonna say thank you guys. Oh, hey, thanks. There's one thing that I can ask. Um eggnog's amazing, I love it.
+
+[27:41] But I was trying to figure out how to get a foam on top. Do you think metal cell has fifty? Wait, for for a foam on top of what? I couldn't hear you. Uh for eggnog.
+
+[27:48] So it's one of my favorite parts about winter is uh being able to drink eggnog. And I I mean I also love egg white drinks, so I was trying to think of a way I don't know I don't think egg whites would work on top of eggnog. I could be wrong, but I was thinking maybe methyl cell at fifty to to have a foam to go on top of an eggnog or some other kind of hot drink. Yeah, you could totally do it. I mean depend what do you want the foam to taste like?
+
+[28:09] Well I want the float to taste like? I mean, I would imagine if you could get the phone done, you could probably get it to taste like anything. I mean, I was thinking maybe you do like a either like a cinnamon uh or like a nutmeg simple and then get that to foam, or I might be wrong on that. You want some solids. You need some whipping, you need some crap in in the so methyl cell F50 is um it's gonna provide the the kind of structure, but you need some solids in there to back it up.
+
+[28:33] Like you things like purees work really well, or you know, something that has some like some some structure some like stuff in it, like clear things like simple syrups aren't gonna whip up so well. Uh methyl cell F50 may or may not work with actual milk products because they can be kind of they can be kind of uh uh a nightmare. Um you could also just whip the eggnog. How much does it hold? Uh long enough for you to finish the drink.
+
+[29:00] I mean, if it's not holding long enough for you to finish the drink, you're not drinking fast enough. You could also do like a hot ISI foam on uh on the with an eggnog base and just thicken it with something like if you want it to stay forever, like forever, like forever, uh you can make an agar fluid gel from the eggnog base. Um, you know, hydrate the agar in water, temper back in the eggnog base, uh blend the hell out of that, and then shoot it out of an ISI. That'll hold hot up to about 70 degrees uh Celsius. And then uh and then that'll hold till till forever.
+
+[29:36] But uh can you hold that for service in an ISI in like a um uh in uh in a circulator bath? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but if you want like hyper dense on that, like uh along with the eggnog.
+
+[29:49] What well what what? What'd you say? What temperature would you hold um that during service? Can you hold eggnog during service, like in a uh in a circulator bath? Yeah, sure.
+
+[29:59] Okay. Uh, temperature like 57. What? Uh yeah, you just don't want to mess with the eggs. Right.
+
+[30:07] So anything below 57, I think you'll be fine. I don't think it's gonna. Uh well how much more Tom and Jerry, though. If you if you want a like a hot egg drink, that's that's a Tom and Jerry. If you want a cold drink, that's an eggnog.
+
+[30:18] I'd run a little test on listen, cocktail purist over here. Listen, uh, Mr. I don't want to make a hot and cold cocktail at the same time because that's uh that's not real mixology. Uh, you know what? Now he's getting me started.
+
+[30:29] Listen, to get back to this. So, like uh I want to you want to test to make sure that nothing's gonna break or curdle, but the egg should stabilize it up to uh you should be fine up to 57. You should be fine. You probably are right all the way up to 60, in which case, uh, you know, if the health inspectors come in, you're not gonna get in trouble. Okay.
+
+[30:48] Yeah. All right, thank you. And I guess I was just wrong on the on the eggnog versions. What did you say the name was for? It's called a Tom and Jerry.
+
+[30:54] Tom and Jerry, okay. Don just has to be, you know, prickly over here, you know what I mean? All right. Yeah. All right.
+
+[31:01] Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Going to break real quick. All right, we're coming back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[31:21] Americans throw away 58 billion disposable cups every year. A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know. But I'm Greg from Capow, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's 100% US made.
+
+[31:38] You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at Kapow.com. C-U-P-P-O-W.com. This is not an advertisement. I promise. This is not an ad.
+
+[32:00] Cooking Issues listener, you're already cooler than most people for listening to this show. And if you do listen to the show, then you know I'm Jack Insley, aka Jackie Molecules, aka the man behind the booth. I need you to make us look cool against all the other shows. Let's make cooking issues the most supported show on the network. $1, $5, $20, $50.
+
+[32:21] Really, anything you can afford, please donate today to Heritage Radio Network.org. Click on the donate tab in the top right corner. Send us a note and let us know you came from Cooking Issues. Dave will appreciate it. I will appreciate it.
+
+[32:34] Even Nastasia will appreciate it. I promise. Give something today. Wow, what's going on back here? Did you have any uh So many?
+
+[32:46] Yeah. Cooking Issues listeners are coming through. All right, all right. Ready? Caller, you were on the air.
+
+[32:50] Oh no, no, no. That was for donations. Oh, for donations. Yeah, no, I don't have callers. I have donations, though.
+
+[32:55] We have you all geared up. Oh well. Geared up for donations. You they should donate. Hey, one more favor for Cooking Issues fans.
+
+[33:02] Like us on Facebook for Heritage Radio Network. We gotta up those numbers. So like us on Facebook. I'm done. Uh all right.
+
+[33:10] All right. So, uh is anything in particular you uh gents want to uh discuss? Just here to weigh in. Not particularly. Just thought we'd come crash your show.
+
+[33:19] Father built in town. Nice. Yeah. Anyway, again, so a Don Lee, uh, overlord of the cocktail world. And Father Bill, pretty much the sp spiritual sp a spiritual guide for the cocktail world.
+
+[33:31] What kind of law do you actually do? I'm the Sherpa to the Sherpa. I teach legal ethics. I teach philosophy of law. You're for it?
+
+[33:37] Uh most of the time. Legal ethics? You're pro? I'm I as with most people at ethics, I'm for it for others. Uh okay.
+
+[33:47] Uh Did you get to see the Pope when he came through? I did not. I was uh I was stuck in the Midwest. Yes. Okay, questions in.
+
+[33:56] Uh Hello people. I was watching a series of videos about portioning and freezing food. Uh in a video, the demonstrator was using two mil polyfill rolls and an impulse sealer and then freezing. Obviously, this is faster and way cheaper than vac sealing, but is this person shafting themselves by not removing air? Michael from Toronto, yes.
+
+[34:17] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So uh, you know, are you are you going to like in in the short term you're fine? Like removing air, the problem is this.
+
+[34:28] If there's any space between uh your bag and the product that you're uh freezing, you're going to uh as your product um kind of goes through the uh the cycles of up and down in your freezer, you're gonna get recrystallization at the surface and you're gonna get uh you're gonna get freezer burn on the surface of that product. Uh there's also uh, you know, even though you're in a freezer, there's potential oxidation reactions that can happen. So you really want to get rid of the air. I mean, so I mean look, if you want if you want to have it like let's say you're let's say you're a prepper and you want to have a delicious steak, uh, you know, you have you have uh what are those things called? Solar cells, so that your freezer is gonna stay good even when the grid goes down, and you know, you've run out of shotgun shells, so you can't shoot anybody or anything left, but your freezer is still running, uh, you know, you're gonna want your stuff vaced down so that it stays in in good condition because twenty years after it all happens, you know, when no more plants or anything grows, you know, you'll be glad that you took the time to get the air out.
+
+[35:28] Uh if you want to use Ziplocks, you can do kind of you can do the old school, like you can get most of the air out doing a water fill where you're uh where you you know you you dip the bag under the water except for and then you close it and the water will exclude the air. If you go on the cooking issues uh old blog, this pictures are still there showing you how to do it. Uh and another technique that you can do makes you look really dumb, is you can stick a uh a drinking straw into the edge of a ziploc, seal all the way up to the ziploc and then pinch and pull the straw out, and then you know, that'll also get rid of some of the air. That's actually what I do for baked goods. You don't want to vacuum baked goods down because it uh crushes the baked goods.
+
+[36:09] Uh so and they're too light, they float, so it's hard to do the water exclusion on a baked good. So when I'm freezing down things like pancakes and muffins, I do the straw on the zippy. That's my that's my my trick. That uh that reminds me of a have you seen the movie The Martian yet? No, is it good?
+
+[36:26] It's uh it's right up your alley. But uh one of the ideas is that while the main character is stuck on Mars, he has to, you know, create some kind of food and he has these potatoes because they send them up there with potatoes as part of a Thanksgiving dinner. Uh but if you're actually going to space, you'd probably send cooked potatoes backpacked, right? You probably not wouldn't wouldn't send raw potatoes up there. I don't think you would send raw potatoes up there.
+
+[36:45] I don't think you no, but you know, if you were actually gonna go up for a long time, you'd need a food production unit anyway. It would probably be algae based. Well, they they were sent with uh just you know, like pre-packaged kind of MRE style food for everything else. Then that potato, look, let me tell you, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something right now.
+
+[36:59] Uh uh I don't know. I heard I heard uh on MPR I heard someone say that like a bunch of NASA people love the movie, so like they're not gonna nitpick. But I know for a fact one thing that you're not gonna send up on that is like something that might have a pathogen on it. So I would bet that they cook the hell out of everything that goes up on that on that on those birds because you know you know the Hassett, the system was designed for uh space program, right? Because you don't want you need to analyze every possible hazard because you don't want like an astronaut to get the the the runs in space or have like food poisoning in space because it's potentially a problem.
+
+[37:36] There's nowhere they can land. So, you know, the food uh and this is you know, the the food system that was developed for the space program uh was meant to have the same checks and balances for safety that the physical space vehicles had, right? Everything redundant, everything checked, everything verified, everything logged, so that in the event of a problem they could trace it back, etc. Hence HACCP was born. Uh and so my guess is that a raw potato in the food supply would be a no-love kind of a situation because it might potentially be contaminated.
+
+[38:09] Right. Well, the the idea I think there was that they take it up there and microwave it before they eat it. Yeah, and I'm just I'm just telling you, I just don't believe it. I mean, look, so someone from NASA write in and say that that you know, may I I'm I'm pr look, I'm sure these guys looked into this, and whoever wrote the book because it was a book before it was a movie, I'm sure they're remember if she dealt with it in the book or not. Do you remember, Don?
+
+[38:28] Uh so the idea was that normally they wouldn't take anything like that up there, but because they would be spending Thanksgiving there, they sent this special package that happened to include potatoes, which is why he was able to grow something there. So let me get this straight. So, in in you're in a space program that is costing billions of dollars with a bunch of lives at stake. And you wouldn't ordinarily do something for safety reasons. However, you did it because it's Thanksgiving.
+
+[38:53] I don't know. Isn't that like two thirds of your show? I guess. I guess I think you've done because it's Thanksgiving. Uh well, okay, yes, and my life in general.
+
+[39:07] But look, I haven't seen the movie, nor have I seen the book, nor am I, nor have I ever consulted with NASA in any way, shape, or form on any sort of food thing. So like I could be 100% wrong. Yeah, you should check out also. There's um a video that uh you know you know the guys from Testa.com. They went out to uh NASA to kind of see how they do the food stuff, and they worked on a project with Tracy Desjardin, the chef in San Francisco, using only the ingredients of things that are already prepackaged on the ISS.
+
+[39:32] What could you create that's new? And they came up with like a space burrito. And then Chris Hatfield actually made a space burrito in on the ISS. How was it? Uh he said it was tasty.
+
+[39:41] Yeah. Yeah. What are the wrapper? Oh my god, I had a wrap the other day. I ordered a freaking sandwich, and it came as a it came as a wrap, and I was already out of the damn place before I realized I'd ordered a wrap.
+
+[39:52] It was everything horrible that I thought it was. Did you set the place on fire? I have not yet been back to set the place on fire. However, I probably will. And I was like, maybe they cooked the freaking, maybe they cooked the freaking tortilla before they repped.
+
+[40:06] Oh no, they didn't raw flower! No. Hey Dave, I've got two questions. Yes. So this one's from Timmy.
+
+[40:14] Any updates on future equipment? I need a Christmas list. And the second question is from Nastasia. Who has Christmas lists? Oh man.
+
+[40:25] Stas, you're such a grown men. Aren't fans are man children. Man. Damn. Christmas list?
+
+[40:32] Ouch. Man. Why do you what do you hate on the Christmas list? Listen, Stas. Oh, it's like you're such a crap listen.
+
+[40:42] You know what people do? They say to me, they say, what would you like for Christmas because you're impossible to buy stuff for? But do you make a list? He checked a choice. Yeah.
+
+[40:51] Right. If you name two things, you've made a Christmas list. Oh Father Bill busting you wide open there, Stas. Yes, if you say to people, here is some things that I would like, that is a list. Okay.
+
+[41:04] What Stas is saying is she doesn't want you sitting down with a with a magic marker because that's what you'd be using in this situation. Jeff a colored magic marker. A colored magic marker. Hopefully it smells like grape or lemon. Those are my two favorites.
+
+[41:16] Orange was my you know, distant third in there. Yeah. And construction paper. Yeah, some construction paper and writing down the list. That's what she's reacting to.
+
+[41:24] But like, you know, Stas, like, here's what I want for Christmas. That's not a list. No, I mean, I don't consciously make a list. No. Dave's is on BuzzFeed.
+
+[41:35] Someone asked Dave Arnold what he wants for Christmas. Oh man. I stand by Tim, by the way. It's okay to ask for something for Christmas. Totally is okay to ask for something because you know what?
+
+[41:45] If you don't ask, you know what you get, some crap you don't want. Do you know what I'm saying? That's right. Get a shitty sweater. My problem is that most of the stuff that I want is so specific that I take all the fun out of it for the buyer.
+
+[41:56] So I'm not like, you know what I need? I need a knife. I'm like, no, there is a knife that I need. You know what I mean? Like, and you can only buy it in this one place on a Thursday from this one lady in Stockholm.
+
+[42:08] Yeah, but see. You're you're like me in that uh this concept of shopping doesn't make sense. You research and then you acquire. You research and then you acquire. You don't go and shop.
+
+[42:16] You know, you don't go to a store and like, what do I need or want, right? It's you know what you need, figure it out, and then you get it. Yeah, I'll spend like five hours figuring out the exact the exact style of crap I want. It's like my wife. She's like, hey Dave, uh that we might have like a power outage, so I'm I'm gonna buy some flashlights.
+
+[42:35] So it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No. You don't just buy a flashlight. You go on the Candle Powers forum, you see what the current technology is right now. Check out the 4 7's website.
+
+[42:48] Like, come on. Yeah. So are there plans for future equipment? Yes. Okay.
+
+[42:52] So, Stas, you want to talk about this after you've insulted the person who asked for our our stuff? It's the same as we said last week. We're gonna let them know when it's ready, right? Okay. Stas.
+
+[43:03] Isn't that true? This is why we call her the hammer folks. You're getting for some reason I don't know why the real Stas is actually coming out on the radio, which it normally never does. So this is like the actual way Nastasia treats people. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:15] I would call her on the line too. Alright, also let me say this. So uh we plan, our plan is on Black Friday, the uh Friday after Thanksgiving, Nastasia and I are gonna ruin another Thanksgiving. We're going to announce what product we're gonna sell, and we're gonna put it on pre-sale. You're not gonna wait for Cyber Monday?
+
+[43:37] No. It's on the internet, man. I know. It's so we can't. We don't believe in the we don't believe in the internet and not a valid term for something that you don't like.
+
+[43:45] Shout out to David Tassinari with a donation in real time. Oh, nice real time. Anyway, uh, so my point is is that on Black Friday we'll we'll we'll come out with what what we're doing. We don't want to announce anything right now simply because um did last week. Simply because we don't want to um we we we don't want to say like what the capabilities or anything like are until everything's completely hammered down, but don't buy a centrifuge between now and Christmas.
+
+[44:12] Right? And we're not gonna deliver it this year, by the way. There's no way on God's earth that we're gonna deliver it this year, right, Stas? That I can say for certain. And uh are we gonna have the cube available?
+
+[44:22] Yep. Cubes available. You know who likes the cube? Rebecca. Yes.
+
+[44:26] Rebecca, big fan of the cube. You know, we should have we should have a uh a contest for naming the cube. Is there we don't have a decent name for it, right? I mean Rebecca would be the leading name, maybe. You don't name the cube Rebecca.
+
+[44:39] You don't want to be you know you don't want to you know what I named after you? A hunk of polyurethane that I shake around on the inside of two pieces of metal and just beat the ever loving crap out of in order to froth up a drink. That would froth up a nice eggnog, though. Yeah, I guess it would. Yes.
+
+[44:54] Wow, John in Osaka says dank shaker nugs should be the cube name. Whoa. Oh, nice. All right, was that a caller I heard coming in or what? Yeah, I think this is the caller.
+
+[45:04] Here we go. All right, caller, you were on the air. Uh this is Jeffrey from Costa Mesa. How are you gonna do? How you doing?
+
+[45:11] Doing all right. Uh first just want to say thank you, uh sincerely to all of you there in the studio for the time and work that you uh put in. And you've inspired us to approach problems, not just cooking problems, but problems in general, greater thought and creativity and enthusiasm. So uh thank you for that. Thank you.
+
+[45:29] It's nice. It's very nice. Yeah. Um I have a question about another since we're talking potatoes. Uh I do a lot of French fries, uh, sometimes just tater talk from those scraps.
+
+[45:41] Uh so do the basic um uh technology for the hour, 14 minute blanch like what you put up put up on the blog uh long time ago. So the problem is uh maybe I'm just an ogre and I'm not handling things delicately enough, but after the blanch, uh so many of the fries fall apart that I'm not getting a lot of you know, whole nice long French fries. I'm wondering if I can blanch for a shorter amount of time and uh do a longer first fry, or what what what would you recommend? Yes and yes and no. So I yes, like in order to get a nicer looking French fry, uh you can blanch for less amount of time, but uh like I don't think the texture is gonna be quite as good and you might have to do more a little more dehigh dehigh uh between the um the blanch and the first fry to to get it right.
+
+[46:36] Right. But I don't think you're gonna do that. Right. Just throw them onto a drying rack, but that's kind of where it's tough to to get them back off into the fryer. Do you have a combi oven?
+
+[46:47] You know what I mean? Yeah. No. Hmm. Cause uh I've had good luck just steaming the ever loving crap out of 'em too.
+
+[46:55] You know what I mean? Really? I you know what I'm you know what I've never done? I've never done a short blanch. See the thing about the blanch, so when you're blanching a French fry in water, doing two things.
+
+[47:06] You're cooking the French fry, right? So you're affecting the texture. You're also putting the salt in the inside of the French fry, which is a very important step. I wonder what would happen if you did, I've never tested this. I wonder what would happen if you did a relatively short blanch, right?
+
+[47:22] To get the salt penetration that you need, pull it out, put 'em on racks, and then just bake them in a regular oven for a while to do like the overcooked thing, and then pull them out, let them cool off before you do the fry. I wonder what would happen. That'd be worth a shot. I think it might be good. I was thinking more of a hardware solution.
+
+[47:40] Uh just take your rack and then dip it into some food grade uh silicone, make it you know non stick. No, it's just really hard. Like it's just really, really hard when you're dumping these, when you're especially when you're dumping out of water, like when you blanch for as long as we normally blanch, like literally just even if you were to like ladle with a spider out of the out of the pot, they shatter on the spider. They're like the in fact, all the bottom ones get pulped, and the ones on top, like because they have the cushion of the of the just their destroyed brethren underneath them, manage to survive. But uh yeah, but I uh you know I I you know please I don't have the time right now uh to run a bunch of tests, but if if because I'm working on this like muse a bunch of stuff, like this centrifuge, the museum.
+
+[48:21] If you um try try like a uh like a uh a shorter blanch and then just like uh some bake time in the oven and see whether it's good. Let me know. That's a good idea. I'll try that. Uh I have to confess, that's my only question.
+
+[48:36] I have to confess I was the person who called a few weeks ago with uh too many questions and initiated, so I apologize for that. I did I did as a as a as a friend said, uh present myself as a ham uh as a nail upon which uh magnets lopez could could hammer so. She does. Well she does now I I don't know if you can hear because you were calling in, but you see the kind of roughness she sprays on people? This is her normal self people.
+
+[49:02] That's what is necessary. All right. Well, let us know how the fries work, all right? We'll do. Alright, cool.
+
+[49:07] Thanks. Hey, I hate to hate to say it, but uh we're we're nearing the end here. Because I gotta get you to we gotta do a MoFAD ad, too. So we have What? Yeah.
+
+[49:14] Let me see what I'm saying. I see unethical, Father Bill would say, for you to not have us talk about these. Oh, wait, here we go. Oh, I don't even know the answer to this. Maybe I'm gonna throw this out there and uh someone I should know this.
+
+[49:30] Uh oh, Nastasia, are uh Sears all uh steak decorators ever going to be available outside of the U.S.? Steak decorators? No. We do we still have any on Amazon? Yeah.
+
+[49:40] So you could probably convince because Amazon, they say they won't do everything, but you could probably go on Amazon.us and order it from Amazon.us, and they may or may not ship to you depending on what kind of a mood they're in. There's also third-party shippers you can send it to. There you go. If you Google for it, I'm sure you can find something. I was I know Canada does that.
+
+[49:57] Like they ship a bunch of stuff to the Canadian border and then you drive to the border and pick it up. But it's all so random. I hate I really, really didn't realize how much I would hate uh how export rules work. What about you, Stas? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[50:09] Uh and a radio broadcast uh broadcast question. Recently, I bought a uh store-bought lobster bisque. Bisque. What do you think about the word bisque, Stas? It's fine.
+
+[50:19] You're okay with it? Mm-hmm. Bisque. What do I want to say like that? You don't like bisque it's.
+
+[50:24] So maybe I thought you didn't like bisque. Bisque quick? What about bisquick? You know who likes bisquick freaking pancakes? Booker.
+
+[50:30] He's like, can you make I don't want your pancakes, Dad? I want bisquick pancakes. I was like, Ingrate. In great. Uh recently bought lobster bisque at a store, and on its ingredients, it states in quotes lobster extract.
+
+[50:45] What is such an extract? Lobster carapace boiled down, or is it an industrial rotive app use? Uh best uh 80 from the UK. I guarantee you they did not use a rotovap. That's for dingity dangity, sure.
+
+[50:56] Uh I I bet you they just uh like took all like the stuff left over from lobster and and you know boiled and crushed it. But you know what? We're doing a um an exhibition on flavor, and I'm sure we'll get some flavorists coming through. I'll ask. I'll I'll look uh all I know is this everything that says extract is very finely tweaked.
+
+[51:16] It would not be a roto vap because that would be too expensive, and you're not gonna get the stuff across. But I'll figure out what it is. I'll try to next time I speak to an actual flavorist uh who works on savory side stuff, I'll uh I'll I'll try to get that. And then uh the person who called in uh Jeremy about the Christina Toze uh cake recipe with the Fondant. It worked.
+
+[51:34] Thanks for the answer. The cake was a huge success. 110 Fahrenheit for the Fondant was uh still a little cool. 115 seemed to work perfectly. I've since made several other recipes from Miss Toesy's book.
+
+[51:44] All of them were amazing. You guys should have her on the show someday. What do you think? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[51:48] That'd be fun. Yeah. I have a caller who's gonna like squeeze a question in so quickly. Here we go. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[51:55] Hey Dave, uh Nastasha, Jack, nice to see all of you. Nice to talk to all of you. Uh quick question. Um nitrogen in a keg. How long does it take to infuse it into a liquid phase?
+
+[52:07] Oh, nitrogen will never go in. Nitrous. No, nitr nitrogen, like so like when you're like like a Guinness style like head. Right. So what those guys are doing is in I believe it's been a long time since I've looked at the widget patent, and Don will know about this.
+
+[52:23] Uh you use nitrogen in beer gases to push without adding extra carbonation, but also injection of nitrogen into the bottom will create seed bubbles that cause the head thing to come up. So what you want to do that is uh you need an injection at source when it goes down, but it's never going to appreciably solubilize in the in the in the in the drink. But you could make like you could you could get like a carbonating stone, like a centered stone that was only going to be used on Guinness, like put it onto a nitrogen hose, and then in the bottom of uh of a you know a thing of Guinness, you could just go and it would like foam up to the top, I would guess. But you wouldn't want that in the you'd want that outside. So it couldn't be in the keg, it would have to be outside the keg.
+
+[53:12] I don't think there's a way uh uh you could in you could put a foaming, you could put something that would cause a boat ton of foam to happen in your beer lines, but it would wreck your beer lines for like a glass. So in other words, here's what I here's what you could do. How about this, Don? I don't think anyone's ever done this. Ready for this?
+
+[53:30] You could have a regular beer line, right? That you left clear, and then you could emulate the beginning and end of a keg where it gets like air interruption in it with nitrogen and have a separate line that's just like crappy foam. Yeah, that would work. Where you're pushing, where you reverse the push, where the air push that goes in actually goes in at the bottom through a carbstone. So every time you're pushing, it's like you're pushing from a new keg.
+
+[53:53] And then you would have a uh you'd pull your your your normal beer without like making it nice, and then you go and just pour foam out of your foam line. What would you do? What if uh you just took the um the the end of the tap basically and just like kind of ran uh like a steel wool inside just to create more surface area to create more uh nucleation sides. Oh, that's a good idea without having to have a separate thing on the inside of the keg. Or or you could really you could also just put like a little nitrogen uh or it at the air at that point, because who cares?
+
+[54:24] It's not staying in contact with the beer more than five minutes, injector right at the tip, right at the flow to just crap it out. You know what I mean? Like almost the way a uh a soda gun craps it out. That's the easiest. There you go.
+
+[54:35] If you were not serving on like pint glasses and small glasses, you could actually even also just uh sand the inside of the glass to create more nucleation sites, but you would eventually yeah so you'd have to drink it fast. So if you made small like you know pony glasses, you know the real baller thing, right? Check this out. Here's the real baller thing, right? You can have a button on the side of the thing so that you pour it and then at the end you're like and it just injects right at the like right in the tip at the end, blasts some air into cause nucleation sites.
+
+[55:03] And then you could do it all from kind of uh one one tap. Yeah. Right? That would work the advice you gave me three months ago about the uh about the uh coffee on tape perfect oh nice amazing yeah last like a month and a half no mold no nothing no worries at all oh beautiful you guys are gonna beat me oh what were you cutting us off yeah all right we're being cut off thanks for uh Don Father Bill everyone else cooking issues and red light ramen
\ No newline at end of file
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@@ -0,0 +1,345 @@
+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley, host of Full Service Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] If you like this show, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizza Wee and where? Bushwick. Bushwick Brooklyn.
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+[0:42] That's that's Bushwick. Give me the face. Give me the Bushwick face. I can't anymore. Ah, it's just she's dead inside.
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+[0:48] No, this let me tell you something about Stas. Once she gets to a certain point, she's just dead inside. You know what I mean? You're no longer even worth disdain. Like, disdain takes energy, people.
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+[0:56] Does. Calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Sadly, we are not joined today in the I don't know where she is. Oh no.
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+[1:07] Jack, yeah. Yes, Rebecca. Don't know where our uh our live tweeting guru is uh is not here. She quit already. Wow.
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+[1:15] Strong. Uh well, it wouldn't be the first time. Right? Wouldn't be the first time. Um, but we have Liz in the booth today.
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+[1:22] How are you doing, Liz? I'm great. I'm just gonna answer your first few calls here and get the get the show on the road, man. You got so many fans, so eager. Oh, let's go fine, so kind.
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+[1:32] We have a caller right now. Yeah. So today, Nastasi and I are going to taste uh the cider that I made. Maybe if we have time, talk about how uh, you know, how I made it, how it's a little different from regular cider. Uh I had some other things if we can get to get if we have time to get to it.
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+[1:47] I have the new Ferros grinder from Orphan Espresso, the coffee grinder, and I can do a little on-air review of that. Uh spoiler alert, I need to I needed to do some modifications to it to make it exactly kind of the way I wanted to, so we could talk about that later if we have time. But we have a caller right now? We do. Alright, caller, you are on the air.
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+[2:06] Hey, Dave, Nastasha, not Jack, unfortunately. This is Antoine from Booker Tone. Are you all good? He will be sad he missed your call. Today's question is about uh simple syrups, how to make them shelf stable.
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+[2:21] And then also I took your orja recipe, and unfortunately, whenever I mix it with acid, it like clumps up, and I didn't know if you had any work around with that. Yeah. So the usually when you get clumping on that, and you're using it like in a in a shaken cocktail, right? Yeah. Yeah.
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+[2:42] I mean, uh, usually what that means is you have kind of a high uh amount of nut solids left in, which by the way, one of my favorite words, nut solids. You like that one, Stas? That's kind of a good one. That's on the that's a Nastasia approved term, nut solids. But the um there's a couple of workarounds on it.
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+[2:58] Um like uh you you put the ticoloid in? Yes. You could hit it with a little more uh you could hit it with a little more Xanthan. I don't really think it's the I don't think the jacking the Arabic's gonna help much. I mean you could try just upping the the level in the in the overall system, but usually it's the um usually it's the Xanthan that you need to uh up a little bit, but not a lot, right?
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+[3:22] So there's very little Xanthan in Ticoloid 210 uh or 310, it's mostly Arabic. But uh I think a little bit more Xanthan might might help. Maybe adding a little, maybe upping the entire system uh might might help a little bit, but it's definitely uh a question of like high high nut high nut solids. Um trying to think of what we used to solve it just by post-blending it, right, Stas? Yeah.
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+[3:45] Like so, like in other words, like when we originally made our uh like when Stas and I were doing like pecan bourbon sours, we started originally with pure pecan oil. Pure pecan oil will not break at all uh with a ticloid. But when we started adding pecan nut solids back, we would start getting clumping. It would unclump if you just went and like hit it for a second, but you can't really do that at a bar. So I would try to up the I would try to up it a little bit and see see whether you can um see whether you can get it.
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+[4:15] Huh. Let me think on it. If I think of anything else, I'll get back to you. Is it but try that and let me know let me know how it works because I hate that the cloudy look, that puffy look on the inside of a drink. Yeah.
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+[4:26] I hate that so much. Don't you hate that? Yeah, I do. It's the worst. Yeah, like you, for instance, like in your recipe, you call for like it's uh 1.75 ticloid and then 0.2 grams xanthan.
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+[4:37] How much more would you recommend? Like, I guess going up. What was the base? What was the water base? Uh uh just the water.
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+[4:45] Like I mean how much water for that much are you talking percentages? It's what 660 of water. Yeah, I mean, look, try doubling the Xanthan and see what happens. It's still a very small amount in the finished drink. You just want the pour ability of the orja to remain uh high.
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+[5:05] And you know, obviously, like blend the crap out of the orja before you do it. How are you getting rid of the solids? I'm sterning them like five different times. Yeah, it's kind of centrifuge is really good at this. But I'm just saying, unfortunately, I'm I'm holding out for uh a good one I've heard is on the way.
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+[5:23] Yeah, we're we're we're even though we haven't officially announced what it is yet, we're still uh we're already kind of taking suggestions on names. So check out this one. I don't really like okay, so like uh the obvious name is uh clear's all, right? Right? That's the obvious name, clears all.
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+[5:37] But the problem is is that unlike a Searzole, which literally sears all, like if it's a food stuff, it is cerebral, right? With a Searsol. I mean, this isn't gonna clear everything, it's just gonna do like a lot of the stuff that we need done. So I wouldn't call it like it clears all because I'm a truth in advertising sort of a fellow, even though it does make a certain sort of you know what I mean? Yeah.
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+[5:56] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, so I will try to stabilize eventually. I should try to stabilize eventually some um just plain strained um nut milk or jazz, but it's gotta be just upping the Xanthan a little more. Try upping the Xanthan in the batch you already have and see what happens, and just uh tweet on back and let me know what happens.
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+[6:16] Or if anyone else in the Twitter universe there uh has uh had experience adding some more stabilization to it, um just let us let us know. Also, how do you recommend doing like stabilizing just other simple syrups that I might make as well? Oh, yeah, yeah. Without affecting the flavor. That depends on um well, okay.
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+[6:35] So like uh you mean stabilize them. Look. Like self-stabilizing. Right. The main the main problem in simple syrups is the is uh is kind of y yeast and mold formations, right?
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+[6:47] So, you know, it's all a question of what you want to add. Like a little bit of benzo it will kill like most of the yeasty stuff and stop that from happening. But you know, how long do you want them to last? Uh a few months at least. But like if like make them like and what what are we talking?
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+[7:06] Like how like can they take heat? Can you throw them in like a vac bag and just like poach them at a low temperature to kill the yeast and then keep them in your fridge? Nothing dangerous is gonna grow at fifty percent sugar. Do you know what I'm saying? So like so like what I would do is like throw them into a into a bag, like circum at a relatively low temperature that's not gonna mess with the with the flavor, but is enough to kill, you know, any kind of yeast kind of stuff, like you know, mid mid fifties somewhere Celsius, and then uh throw that in the in the fridge and then refrigerated uh, you know, uh once it's been pasteurized, it should last.
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+[7:43] You know, I don't think I mean someone can get back and tell me I'm wrong, but nothing bad should grow and uh no molds will grow after you do that because they're not gonna survive that and no yeasts are gonna grow. And I've never had I've never been contaminated with any sort of like vile bacteria. It's all been kind of yeasts and molds and uh and that little bit of heat'll do it, or you could just hit it with something like uh benzoit, but then you've added benzoit to it. You know what I mean? It's and so then like, you know, uh some people will say they can taste it, or some people will think that you're an evil human being for doing it, so they're you know, just you know, go the other way.
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+[8:16] What do you think about adding like the tablespoon of vodka around? Oh, I don't know if that's enough. Is it did have other people had good luck with that? Uh I haven't tried it out yet. I didn't I don't want to ruin it here.
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+[8:27] I mean experimenting with them. Uh I mean I don't think it's gonna r ruin it. I just don't know if it's enough. You know what I mean? Like so you're looking for hurdles and so if you figure I mean you have to figure out how much of your I mean, ru ha half of the syrup by weight is by weight is um water.
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+[8:48] But uh but you gotta calculate how much water is in it because the density of a regular simple syrup is roughly one one point two one point two three, roughly. And so like a liter of that, a liter of the product will be uh will weigh one point two three kilos, uh half of which is water. So there's roughly six hundred and change mils, six hundred and fifteen mils of water in every liter of simple syrup. Okay, I can't. And so and so then you'll know what your alcohol content is, and so like you know, a couple tablespoons and you know, is not ever gonna get you too high up.
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+[9:24] But the question is is is a little bit of alcohol enough to kill uh or to prevent yeast and mold from growing so long as the sugar content is so high. And that I don't know because I don't know how close you are to the threshold. Now you could you could make rich simples, right? And those those are even more stable, but mold as anyone who has stored maple syrup for long periods of time not in the fridge will tell you uh mold will grow on the top of maple syrup. Okay.
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+[9:51] Solid. And it makes it disgusting. You ever had you ever had moldy maple syrup? I have. It's gross.
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+[9:58] Maple syrup? Moldy maple syrup. Oh no, I've never had moldy maple syrup. It's the worst. It you know, as good as maple syrup is, that's how bad moldy maple syrup is.
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+[10:09] I would say like I would say here's how I think I would I would rank these kinds of things. Rotten pistachio is the top, right? That's the worst thing in the world, a rotten pistachio. Stas, do you agree? Gross.
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+[10:18] I've never had one of those uh bad pine nuts that wipes out your palate for a million years. But a rotten pistachio is way way up there. Maple s like moldy maple syrup, not that bad, but pretty damn bad, especially considering how good you you think it's gonna be. Liz, what's your least favorite bad thing? Uh I I would have to go with when you when you get like the bad pistachio.
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+[10:36] Yeah, that's like disgusting. It ruins your whole day. I would agree. I would agree. And you know what?
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+[10:41] It's always like you've eaten a lot of pistachios, and then you get that one, and you were happy, you get in that kind of choo-choo choo-shoe-trained rhythm of eating pistachio pistachio nuts, and then you get that one and you're like, ah! But you know the thing is is that you can kind of look at them and know. So, like we used to buy like the canned shelled pistachio nuts, and always our syrups were never like as good as they could be. And so then we like would dump I would I made this is why one of the reasons everyone hates me, is I would say, okay, you net from now on, you're dumping every pistachio nut onto a sheet tray and you're putting eyeballs on every last pistachio nut because you can look at them. They look, first of all, the color's not right.
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+[11:19] A lot of them get a little yellow and oxidized and whatever, they're still okay. But you the you know the wrinkly, it's the wrinkly ones. When you're shelling them yourself and you look down, you see that wrinkly pistachio nut, just don't eat it. Don't eat that nut. You know what I'm saying?
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+[11:31] I just want to blindly shovel them in my mouth though. So I I appreciate that. So what you need to do, what you need to do, uh Liz is is you need to become rich enough that you can have someone who pre-sifts your pistachios for you, and then you can blindly shovel them into your art. Do you feel the compulsion to break them open? Or do you can you just have shelled pistachio nuts and you're okay?
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+[11:50] I I think I'm okay with the shell. I mean, no, but I mean you but you you know you m you don't mind having someone pre-shell them for you because. Oh no, I wouldn't mind that either. I mean, it's life goals right here. Right, right.
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+[11:59] I mean for me, there's something about like sitting there and like cracking open the the things that I that I kind of enjoy. Do you are you did I know Nastassi never watches stuff. You ever watch James Bond movies? Sure, yeah. So there was to Topole, the guy who was in the uh one of the fiddleral on the roof movie, Topole, was one of the good guys in one of the James Bond movies where they had to climb up some monastery, I think, in Greece, and he had the habit of being able to throw pistachio nuts into his here's a life goal for you.
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+[12:27] He could throw a pistachio nut in the shell in his mouth, eat the pistachio, and spit the shells out. That that, my friend's skill. Wow. Skill. Movie factor.
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+[12:38] I called movie factor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so we should all we should all work on that. Thank you very much.
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+[12:43] Uh I wanted to just let you know that Jeremiah Bullfrog does this regard. And he would love to get you down here. Oh my god, he was here. He was in New York, and but the museum exhibit wasn't open yet, so he sent me a picture of the outside. I I I didn't get to talk to him, so hopefully he got to go inside.
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+[12:57] Hopefully the machines were running this. By the way, the museum opens tomorrow, people. Museum of food and drink, 62 Bayard in Brooklyn. Uh Jeremiah Bullfrog, excellent, excellent man, as we all know. Museum opens in Brooklyn tomorrow, complete with, and now I'm allowed to tell you about everything in it.
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+[13:11] Check this out. We have uh uh it's about the flavor industry. We've talked about this a million times, right? The birth of the flavor industry. We have these machines called like smell synths that let you play like it's like an arcade game where you mix smells in an arcade game fashion.
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+[13:25] Like an early arcade game. Like, I don't know, like uh like Space Invaders. You like Space Invaders? Mm-hmm. It's a good game, Space Invaders.
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+[13:32] But you're not shooting anything. It's not a first-person shooter. It's not a first-person shooter, but it literally runs off of arcade buttons and it's got LEDs, no noises. It's gonna be fun. Anyway, all right.
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+[13:41] Uh so Jack Davis in the chat room likes spin dax as a name for the centerfuge. Spin Dax, but what about Booker? Booker will be so upset. I don't think do you think he'll care? Do I think Booker will care?
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+[13:53] I mean, like, I think maybe later in life he'll care. Right now, he obviously doesn't care. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
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+[13:59] All right. Okay, we don't wait, we don't like uh okay. Let me get into some questions. Unless we have a caller. I'm gonna get into some questions.
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+[14:05] This from Brian in Seattle. Uh hi, Dave, Nastashia, Jack, and Rebecca. Well, Jack and Rebecca's don't like it. Oh, Rebecca is here? Yes.
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+[14:14] Oh, nice. All right. And Liz, we'll add Liz to the list here. Uh I remember reading in Liquid Intelligence that Dave uses 200 proof alcohol for some cocktail ingredients, like a Hustinos. Uh, but that it wasn't generally Wait, that's what Stas thought the good name was, right?
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+[14:28] I think it is the Hustino 54. Yeah, because 54 Eldritch was our old lab, and a Hustino is like a Houstino. We should at least just informally refer to that. That was actually where I like woke up in the morning and I was like, I said to do it, like eighty. Or the Houstino 54,000.
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+[14:44] Yeah, I like that. Anyway, but I think Houstino is. Oh, but it's not, but we could. Yeah, I'll just tell I'll just call up China and be like, yo, China. I know that we had I know that we said it was gonna run in more like, you know, like 5,000 RPM, but how about 5400?
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+[14:58] They're like, but no, no, no, no, no. It's a marketing thing. Believe me. Yeah. Believe me.
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+[15:04] I think it's good, right? Anyway, Houstino, yeah, because 4958 is not such a good number. No. Right? 5400, yeah.
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+[15:14] 5400? I like that. Now we'll we'll call we'll after we get off the air, we'll go, we'll call China. Okay. Then we'll wake them up.
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+[15:20] Wake them up from sleep. They'll be like, what's wrong? Nothing. We need it to go 5400 IPM. We'll tell you later.
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+[15:26] Okay. Uh like Hustinos, but that it wasn't generally available to the public. In looking for some, I stumbled across a California product called Clean Extract. K-L-E-E-N extract. And uh they're at Cleenextract.com, apparently, which purports to be 200-proof food grade ethyl alcohol and available for shipping to the public in many states.
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+[15:46] It seems like the product is geared towards making tinctures of various herbs. What do you think about the word tincture stuzz? I think it's kind of a gross word. Tincture. Tinksure.
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+[15:55] Tincture. Not as bad as spool. Spool. Uh tinctures. Uh uh of various herbs, herbs, and quotes.
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+[16:03] By that we mean we mean marijuana. When someone says herb in quotes, it means pot. Did you know that? Yeah, probably. I don't know these things.
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+[16:14] Uh so it comes in large sizes, like one gallon plus. Would there be any problem using it in cocktails? And if not, any interesting doors it opens up that 190 proof everclear does not. I've heard that pure alcohol is hygroscopic, which it is, it absorbs water out of the air. Would this just uh would this just extract water from the air until it hits 190, making it no better than Everclear?
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+[16:33] Love the show, keep up the awesome work, Brian from Seattle. Uh well, uh look, once you're up at 190 versus 200, the proof isn't really making that much of a difference anymore. That little bit of water isn't making a lot lot of difference in terms of the flavors you're getting. What it uh the reason I hate Everclear, and no offense to the manufacturers of the product, Everclear, it sucks. It's just a r rancid, awful, poorly made product that no matter how I mean, we've all been to college.
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+[16:59] You've had Everclear dumped into Kool-Aid Rice dies. I didn't go to those parties. What about you, Liz and Rebecca? Did you have Everclear in uh in uh Kool-Aid situations? I went to the University of Missouri and we we held Everclear in high regard, so yes.
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+[17:12] Yeah, okay. So, okay, so let me ask you this. Uh you even when even when it's diluted in large amounts of uh a grape Kool-Aid, you can still smell the Everclear. From miles away. Yeah.
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+[17:24] Why? Because Everclear is a poorly made product. It's like Pure. Yeah, uh, well, wow, yeah, Purel, yeah, uh yeah. Well, well that's basically what Purel Pirel is like, like poorly made.
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+[17:33] Actually, like like poisonous. They denatured Purelle, I think. Um anywho, so I think it's just poorly made. I think that's that's the issue. So that's my main gripe with it, not the proof.
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+[17:43] So if this clean extract is good to go, it's good to go. But you do not require, in fact, at the bar now we use something called technical reserve that's uh made right here in Brooklyn. Uh and uh it's uh 190, and that's what we use for everything just because you know it's pretty clean. You want clean, clean aroma. You could also, like, if you get crappy everclear, you could put it through 18 million uh runs of a of like a Brita to try and strip out all the nasties.
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+[18:09] Remember when we used to put like we used to be so cheap that we would buy like you know, smear noff and pop off vodka, and we would just sit there putting it through Brita time and time again, Brita after Brita after Brita until the stank went away, so that we used it when we were rotovapping at the school. Back when we were allowed to rotovap alcohol. Well, not allowed. I mean the government said it was illegal, but no one was stopping me from uh uh teaching, teaching people distillation. Yes, anyways, okay.
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+[18:34] Um Hey, you guys want to taste uh you guys in the booth want to taste cider? We need some glasses for us. Ooh, yes. Let's taste some of the cider that I made from my very own tree. We need glasses for us.
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+[18:45] Anyway, um let me see what we got here. Truffles, got an interesting question in from Arnie Olsen. Uh I found a couple of small truffles in the forest near my home in Bergen, Norway. I'm sure Bergen, Norway, no offense to New Jersey, but it's the county where I used to live, is Bergen County. And I don't, you know.
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+[19:04] Probably looks the same, right? It's probably just the same. Probably just as nice. No, no. No.
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+[19:10] Uh no offense to Bergen. Hey, look, you know what we are? Bergen. We're the gateway to New York. We got the we got the uh the George Washington Bridge.
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+[19:16] That's what we got there in Bergen. Anyway, Bergen's a fine county. No offense to us. You know what their newspaper is? The Bergen Record.
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+[19:23] The Bergen record. Okay. Not Norway, but not Norway. Okay. They're Elaphomyces granulatis, known as deer balls.
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+[19:33] Heart's balls, heart meaning deer, not heart mean heart like H A R T, not heart like, you know, corusome. Uh heart's truffles, oh, or uh Lycoperdon nuts. This is that's from Wikipedia, and not regarded as particularly high quality. Still, I would like to make the most of them. And my question is would rapid infusion work to make a truffle oil?
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+[19:52] Uh I'm not very fond of truffle oil, but I can't think of any better way to use them, and they're not super aromatic, and the texture isn't great uh great either. Best uh Arnie Olson. Now listen, uh I I tried to look these suckers up, and by all accounts, everyone's like, you know, maybe they're edible barely, maybe they're poisonous mildly. So like nobody seems to know, but I'm reminded back of when Paul Adams, uh our friend from Popular Science, uh came up to Connecticut and found some bitter bowl eat, which doesn't taste that that good, and he made uh bowl eat butter. Remember, and he brought it into the to the radio program, and it was good.
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+[20:25] So I would try rather than doing oil, which you know I would maybe do uh maybe do a uh a deer ball butter, right? Deer ball butter. Hmm. By the way, uh the like lycoperdon is a puff ball, and the Wikipedia, if you look that up, actually says that that word comes literally from the uh I think Latin meaning uh wolf farts. Wolf farts.
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+[20:50] You ever eaten puff balls? No, you can eat puffballs, you know. You just have to make sure you have to cut through them and make sure that they're not an immature form of another mushroom that could kill you. But it but puff balls themselves, they're okay. They're not the you know they're not the greatest thing in the world.
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+[21:03] Oh, but you know what? I went to a Polish store yesterday, and I what I've learned, we need to I need to talk to Lukash, you know, friend of the show, uh, that the poles have forgotten more about mushrooms than we're ever gonna know. So many different pickled mushroom varieties. You know how like we just have like pickled, like, you know, like those, like the like the regular pickled mushrooms, and you're like that. This is like I didn't bring them with me because they need to be chilled, but like you're gonna like this one.
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+[21:27] Slippery jack mushrooms. Slippery jack mushrooms, honey mushrooms. Yeah, yeah. When Jack comes, well, I'm glad I didn't bring it because Jack's not here to have slippery jack mushrooms, but I was gonna give him some anyway. I need to learn more about Polish uh mushrooms.
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+[21:41] Okay. Uh on the truffle oil thing. Uh uh look, the whole point apparently, and I was doing some research, there is a book uh not for the uh not for Europe, but for America, called um that I didn't get a chance to order because I just saw these questions last night, but it's actually on the list now of things I want to order, called uh Truffle uh Field Guide to Truffles of North America, and this truffle is included in it because it comes from uh North America. And the reason the truffles apparently, and this is interesting to me, have aroma is because they want you to, if by you you mean small mammals, find you, dig you up, eat you, and crap out the spores. So that's why they have aroma.
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+[22:19] So perhaps um one of the one of the problems uh with the the particular truffle that you have, the deer ball, is maybe it's not at its best. Because at its best it should have an aroma, but they have a longer persistence than um like tubermelanosparm or things like this. And so they're gonna remain findable in the ground uh well past or before the point when they actually have their aroma. So if they don't have much aroma, I don't think they're gonna have much of anything but try making a butter. Is that a good answer?
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+[22:44] I don't know, I can't tell. You want to try the you wanna do we you want to go to commercial break? Yeah, and then we'll try to. Let's go to commercial break, and as we come back from commercial break, we'll uh try some cider on cooking issues. Today's program was brought to you by Firesider.
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+[23:10] Did your grandmother ever tell you to drink raw apple cider vinegar? It's good advice and more common than you may think. For generations of New Englanders, a tot of vinegar was a morning ritual. Taken daily, a tablespoon of unfiltered apple cider vinegar can help support immune function and digestive functions. To the base of certified organic apple cider vinegar, Firesider added whole raw certified organic oranges, lemons, onions, ginger, horseradish, habanero pepper, garlic, and turmeric.
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+[23:39] They let this mixture steep for six weeks at room temperature to preserve the living vinegar culture and delicate flavors of the ingredients. Lastly, they blend a generous helping of raw wildflower honey into the mix. The result is potent but balanced, offering layers of sweet tart and spice. Fire cider tastes great on its own, or is an addition to tea, juice, or salad. Firesider ships direct from their online store and is available at over 500 locations nationwide.
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+[24:08] Use their store locator to find one near you and ask for a free sample. For more information, visit firesider.com. Firesider, huh? Do we have any of that stuff in house? We could try?
+
+[24:20] Liz, do we actually own that product? Um the silence. The silence means no. Silence means no. Well, we'll we'll get it in.
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+[24:26] We'll we'll try it, we'll talk about it. But while we're on cider, so what we have here is look. In the back of the of this house that I acquired in Connecticut, uh, there is a standard size, what looks to be similar to a Golden Delicious, but it's not. It doesn't taste exactly like a golden delicious, but it's super high, so you can't get the apples out of it very easily. But I got one of those 12 foot pool poles with a little picker on the end of it and got enough off to make uh uh some you know like like eight gallons of cider.
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+[24:54] And uh I wanted to make a very kind of particular kind of cider. So here's what I did that's that's different from normal. First of all, I don't have a cider press, so I juiced it all in a champion juicer. Yes, because I'm that much of a masochist and an idiot. So I juiced it all in a massacreine juicer.
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+[25:08] Also, I didn't want to have like a typical kind of oxidized cider taste. So I hit the cider with ascorbic ac I hit the juice with ascorbic acid as soon as it was juiced. I did not add pectinase to the enzyme because uh uh uh SPL to it before fermentation because I knew that apples like this typically lose a lot of their character when they're spun out. They're not like a high, a high like uh flavor apple like an ashmade's kernel where where the juice is delicious even after all the solids are out of it. So I wanted to ferment it on its solids, so I doped it with yeast.
+
+[25:44] Um I added a small amount of sugar because they were fairly low bricks, and uh put them in five gallon buckets and did a primary fermentation for a couple of weeks at them at relatively cool temperatures because the house is relatively cool. And then here is where I uh differed. After the primary, I added uh SPL and uh swirled them around to drop the stuff uh out. Then I put the uh I put the entire batch through the Houstino 5400 5400 uh to get rid of like a lot of the flock and yeast sediment in it that was left and got a pre-cleared thing. But here is another trick I used, people, that I think is uh you know, I don't know whether anyone else does this, but because I was introducing that oxygen there, I didn't want uh a high vinegar note on it.
+
+[26:29] I wanted the acidity to stay what it was, and I didn't want it to oxidize. So what I did is I immediately semi-carbonated it while it was warm. I didn't want to highly carbonate it, but I semi-carbonated it in two-liter bottles using a carbonation rig. You could do it in a keg if you had one. Poured them semi-carbonated into bottles that I had added the dosage to, capped them, and then let them bottle condition for a couple of weeks.
+
+[26:53] So here we have it. Cheers. Cheers, cheers, folks in the booth. Rebecca, Liz. We like it's good, right?
+
+[27:02] Yep. It's good. Yeah, yeah, very tasty for all you listeners out there, all my chat room friends. Yeah, so this is like it's still very, very tart because it's a fairly high uh acid. I was able to literally beat another batch of apples off the tree that are lower in acid.
+
+[27:16] So I'm gonna try to make kind of a less uh tart one. But the idea here is like the um for this kind of cider, a minimal amount of oxidation, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's not bad. Yeah.
+
+[27:27] And the answer, my friends, is ascorbic acid and a little precarbonation before the uh bottle conditioning. I wish I had some cheddar cheese. That'd be good. Wouldn't that be good? Some really super sharp cheddar cheese.
+
+[27:40] And some crackers. Oh my god. Oh my god. You know what? We're simple people, Nastasi and I.
+
+[27:47] Like good. I don't even need like hyper expensive. I just need nice sharp like would I would I turn if someone like parachuted in here with a like a wheel of Montgomery's uh, you know, uh cheddar from Neil's yard, like would we turn them down? No. We would kill them and steal the cheese needed.
+
+[28:03] But you know, I don't even need necessarily that high quality. And on that note, we have another caller. Oh, yeah, caller. You're what are they gonna talk about killing people? Call her, you're on the air.
+
+[28:13] Hey Dave, this is Colin down in DC. How you doing? Because you got a guy calling this Alex G fellow calling in last week asking about some sweet potato caramel syrup. Right. And uh it was me that called in about that about I don't know, two or three years ago.
+
+[28:31] Alright, so what happened? Let's know what happened. So just figured I could call in and give uh him and everyone else like just real fast update on that stuff. Um the syrup, right? That I was been able to reproduce pretty successfully.
+
+[28:49] The biggest key really is start with a really high bricks sweet potato. If you can get heart of gold, those are your best option. Otherwise, just try whatever you can get uh locally and just experiment and see what works. But you get best yields out of heart of gold because they're high bricks, easy to work with. I cannot believe you just put that song in my head.
+
+[29:09] I'm so angry that that song's in my head. It's like it's never gonna leave now. It's gonna be there like five. Oh man. But uh, I mean, I had the benefit of it.
+
+[29:18] There's uh just some retired guy, retired professor in Maryland who's got a you know, uh one acre, two acre sweet potato farm, and he put like fourteen tons of potatoes in. So I got them there. I don't know where anyone else will get them, but experiment beyond that, and you'll still get a good product. But we'll just give the procedure really quickly. Just get the procedure.
+
+[29:40] Yeah, so procedure is juice them out in a you know, cube them up, juice them in champion juicer. Uh kind of uh you're gonna end up with a kind of starchy juice. Add some pectanex to that and some amylase. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. Which amylase do you use?
+
+[29:57] Right? Regular uh regular beer house hammelets? Uh I just get the whatever they get at brew shops. Okay. And just use a bunch of it.
+
+[29:59] And uh it helps it out. Uh circ that out at maybe 65 or 70 C for a day. And you'll see that uh you'll get a kind of clear liquid on the top of uh uh and a lot of the starch will settle out at the bottom. And a real key here is you can't that clear liquid, reduce it down into a caramel syrup or just a carrot like actual candy caramel as you would normally. Uh the key here is like not getting any starch in.
+
+[30:35] If you get starch in, it just sort of turns more into like a pudding, which is also awesome, but not what you're going for if you're trying for the caramel. Uh I think that's about it. If there's if anyone else, I guess has questions, they can follow them up and you could tweet it out or whatever. But I just thought I'd take the opportunity to clear that up. Yeah, are you are you a part of our chat room?
+
+[30:58] Usually because people might ask you questions right now. If you were to log into the to the chat room, people might ask you questions like right now. Uh yeah, I'm on it. I can uh they can ask questions. I've I'm out and about for like another 20 minutes, but I'll be back if that stays live.
+
+[31:14] Uh I don't know, Liz. Does it stay live? Yeah, it's always live. Uh-huh. It's ever lively make it.
+
+[31:20] Well do it. I'm on it and do it. Cool. Uh I'll sign off and yeah. Wait.
+
+[31:27] Liz, are you saying it's like Tinkerbell and you just have to keep believing in it and it stays alive? Yeah, I mean, minus the whole dust thing, but we don't have dust. We don't have dust. We'd have to Pixie Dust? If only Jack were here, he he would know.
+
+[31:40] Yeah, we're just like, you know, like we always we get close and we don't quite make it there. We all all we just do, hey, uh I could buy the pixie dust. It's available Amazon Prime, but no, I'm not gonna buy it. Right? Hey, can I give a shout out to a listener?
+
+[31:52] Yeah. Anthony Scardino. I made his life. What what was that? He was he's missing a clamp screw.
+
+[32:00] Oh, and you sent the clams screw to me? Well, no, I just responded to his email. Oh, nice. Well, that's that's that's quite nice. Uh oh, by the way, I loved when uh you insulted one of I loved that tweet.
+
+[32:11] I tweeted at him. Oh my god. Yeah. So he tweeted back his Christmas list to us, the picture of it, and the fifth thing on the Christmas list was get insulted by the co-host of his favorite uh podcast, and he's like, check number five off. That was perhaps the greatest tweet that I have ever received in my whole life.
+
+[32:29] I like I was on the floor, my wife was on the floor. By the way, Stas and Jack are gonna try to get my wife into the uh into the program. I don't know, like uh for any of you out there that wanna I don't know why you would want to ask my wife a question. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, okay.
+
+[32:44] Uh question in Would Dave uh use equilibrium uh equilibrium brining uh chicken fingers. Um in other words, brining them, I presume, uh from Joan. I I presume that uh what's meant here is brining the chicken fingers until they are in equilibrium with the brine around them. I have never done that. Uh that would take uh I think quite quite a while.
+
+[33:09] Um and then the question is is there a refractometer uh that I would recommend? Um I'm enjoying the show, best regards. I don't know. I've never done it that way. Like uh, I mean, definitely that's the way when you're pickling, when you're doing like brine soak on meats over a long period of time, you know, you definitely what you you know you you m you make your brine based on the total weight of brine and uh meat and then you check it with um you can check it either with uh you know one of the uh density based things like uh you know the floating guys or you can get a refractometer.
+
+[33:45] I don't know because I've never measured salinity with a refractometer. I don't know how accurate they are over the range of interest for meats, because it's not gonna be high. Uh remember, you're you're going probably fairly if you're gonna brine to an equilibrium point, you're down low, like you know, three percent or less. Uh two to three percent in that range. Um so it's gonna be relatively tiny amounts, and so I don't know whether I don't know how accurate a refractometer, uh a regular refractometer is gonna be for salinity at those levels.
+
+[34:17] But I can look into it. I didn't get a chance to look into it, but I I I can look into it. But I you know, in general what I do is I you know, I only I'm brining for a couple of hours. I don't do on chicken fingers, they they brine relatively quickly, and I don't really do an equal equilibrium thing. You think that's okay?
+
+[34:31] Yes. Yeah, okay. Uh Randy writes in, what? Someone when you no, we we do have a caller if you're interested. I I'm totally interested.
+
+[34:39] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? All right. This is Chris from the Green Zone in DC. Uh, how are you doing?
+
+[34:46] Good, good, good. So I can't wait for the you know 5400 because it's directly related to my question. Nice. Um I called back a while ago about keeping you know mint from turning green and also clarifying and filters versus whatever else. Sure.
+
+[35:01] I made another batch of my herbal liqueur and I did it two ways. I did a different thing for the fresh and for the dry ingredients. For the fresh, I just put it in an iSty, like fresh mint and other herbs. And it came out bright electric green. It was awesome.
+
+[35:15] It was relatively clear. All the gunk that was in there settled out immediately. I could just rack it off. Fantastic. Nice.
+
+[35:21] And then for the dry stuff, so both spices and herbs, I did it in uh a circulator in the bag. And it came out to be a very dark green. It was a bit cloudy, and I spent a while filtering it in paper towels and coffee filters. Eventually got it pretty clear, dark green. I figured I'd mix the two.
+
+[35:38] Mixed them together. Got the same, you know, halfway point in the green colors. And then since I'm going, I'm sort of making my own version of chartreuse, which I've heard is sweetened with honey. I added, I made a honey syrup and slowly added it in. It instantly went cloudy and disgusting brown, and I had thought that maybe it had looshed or something, the way like an absinthe or an oozo would.
+
+[35:59] Right. Uh be but then I left it overnight, and all the stuff that was still making it slightly green had settled on the bottom, and what I got was just a pure brown, clear liquid on top. So in these green infusions and liqueurs and stuff, is the is the di is the chlorophyll dissolved in the alcohol, or is it just really tiny little particles floating around? In coronavirus. Well, chartreuse is colored with uh purified chlorophyll from spinach.
+
+[36:32] Sure. After after it's made, because they're doing a distillation. Right. Then an age down, and then they're just doping it back with uh the with uh you know, it depends on whether you're talking green or yellow, right? Yellow is obviously higher in honey.
+
+[36:48] Dave, you try did you try doping it with regular sugar? I mean, I wonder what was going on. Yeah, I'm not sure. I I did it, I did it with sugar the last batch I made, and it still ended up being really brown. Like it went from being green and stable.
+
+[36:57] It went from being green and stable to brown instantly. But what was the original proof before you added the uh syrup? Oh, I mean it was it was everclear, so it was one, you know, close to 190. Oh, so it really? Yeah.
+
+[37:15] Huh? Huh. So you were adding a good amount of liquid to it, much more, in other words, like, so it's not like you were dealing with something that was relatively low in proof, like 50%, and then you're you're adding almost a liter or a bit more, actually, more than a liter of the uh everclear strength stuff, and then I added almost a liter of honey syrup. So there's something in there that is oxidizable that I mean it couldn't it wouldn't be enzymatic because like uh most of like polyphenol oxidase enzymes are going to be inactivated at that super high uh at that super high proof. Like when I say inactivated and destroyed.
+
+[37:56] Here's the other thing. The stuff that settled out eventually was actually green. Huh. Yeah. Huh.
+
+[38:05] And so now I've got a layer of green fludge, and I've got a layer of brown clear liquid. Okay, so the brown is probably the what color it it always probably had that brown in it, and it was just overwhelmed by the green. I'm pretty sure that like that that's what's going on there. So then the question is why did it suddenly flock? Have you tried doing the reverse?
+
+[38:26] Have you tried adding uh um a small amount of the green to a large amount of water just to see whether or not it stays or whether it flocks together? Like you might, as you go through this small stage where it's still relatively high proof, but now there's some water, like all the stuff might instantly aggregate. You know what I mean? Right, right. No, I haven't tried it like that.
+
+[38:48] I would try it and see what happens. Does the brown stuff taste delicious or does it not taste the same either? No, it's pretty it's pretty it just doesn't look very attractive. Have you tried especially with the name green zone, have you tried um have you tried um you have you added any to water as though it was a bitters before you added any sweetener to it? Have you ever have you ever used it like as a bitters just adding a little bit to water before it Oh no I haven't I haven't tried that.
+
+[39:19] I would I'd be interested to see what happens whether it stays clear or whether it flocks together. And someone else in the uh in the on the chat room maybe has some ideas on this but yeah this is a it's some sort of weird thing that's happening as you're adding water to the system. So I would try going in the other direction and see whether or not you can prevent it from happening. Yeah. But something is going from I don't it it could either be going from soluble to not or it could be going from uh stable to all of a sudden flocking.
+
+[39:47] It sounds like the stuff's flocking together. Most most stuff that looses. Yeah I thought it was a loosh kind of like absence or something but I don't think it would settle out so quickly. Well yeah loosh loosh stuff tends to not settle it tends to float to the top. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:00] So like if you were to if you were to like uh oozo something out, loosh it and then let it sit for a week you'll get the stuff usually on top, not on bottom. So you're getting something that's heavier than alcohol that's settling out. I mean, I filtered it through like layer after layer of coffee filters. I'm really surprised there's that much solid stuff to settle out. Well, the other thing you know is you could have like solids in there that then they could be charged.
+
+[40:26] There could be like a charged particle that then uh then uh attaches to the color and then sp spins it out. So you know, you never you never it's hard to say, but I would try to do the reverse experiment, see whether you can stop it from happening. Cool. All right. Well, in the meantime, cannot wait for the uh soda fuse.
+
+[40:43] Okay, and and also in the meantime, make you some uh make you some spinach do uh juice and do it the way the monks do it. How do how do I do that? Just blend up some spinach and dehydrate it? Uh no, they j uh it's been a long time since I've done it. Like you cook it, you gotta get the initial stuff out, then you blend it, and then you squeeze it and you get the chlorophyll juice, and then that stuff's pretty stable.
+
+[41:05] I have to go look at the protocol. No. No, not when you're done with it. Not when you're done with it. You want to get just uh just the clear the the clear stuff out.
+
+[41:14] I made some delicious parsley oil in the Houstino fifty four, by the way, and I want to make I wanna make a drink that it has ticoloid stabilized uh parsley oil in it. Wouldn't that be good? Right. That'd be delicious. Mm-hmm.
+
+[41:25] And that stuff stays a green. Green for a long time because there's no water in it, it's all oil. Right, right. Anyway, try some of this stuff out and let me know what happens. Uh so in the chat room they want to know uh what you think about that bacon thing from World Health Organization.
+
+[41:39] Well tell me about it. I I wasn't knowing I I don't know what it is. Do you know, Rebecca? They uh said it's a number one carcinogen now. Number one like, oh bacon is more carcinogenic than cigarettes.
+
+[41:52] No, no, no. Okay. It's uh in the same level category. That's what they're saying. I mean it's based on what data.
+
+[42:00] I gotta redo stuff if you want, but I don't have anything to do. I will read it. I will I will read the data, but in general, like I am loath to believe any of that, any of that kind of uh it's just like because why? Because main like if you look at it like some like someone will do a study with a bunch of kind of related risks, and they'll add a bunch of stuff together that doesn't that has no meaning. Like I I guarantee you that there is not some giant cohort study where the only difference between group A and group B is bacon.
+
+[42:34] And then and then, you know, like you know, half of the people on the bacon side are dropping like flies, right? I mean it's just I guarantee that that's not the case. I will look at the data, but I would be willing to bet a a a chunk of money that if I did look into it, I would come back and say that this is some horse hockey. Horse hockey? Horse hockey.
+
+[42:54] Okay. Now all the vegans and vegetarians are like I told you we were right. Now look, you know, whatever. You know what? And like they say sassafras will kill you too.
+
+[43:04] You're not allowed, hey, vegans and vegetarians. You should be able to have uh real honest to God saffral root beer, and you can't because someone told you that it's gonna cause cancer. And you know what? I don't know. I think the data is just bad.
+
+[43:17] I think the data's just bad. I haven't looked at the bacon data, so I have no idea. I'm not like I have no knowledge, but anyway, so let me rip through this real quick before I get ripped off the air. Uh I'm uh this is from Randy. I'm making a bonus leg of land this weekend and wondered if this is a good way to do it.
+
+[43:31] Cook it uh uh low temp for 55 degrees C for 10 hours, then throw it in a 500 degree oven until it hits the final temperature or 60 degrees C. Uh I want to do it this way because I'm worried that if I were to sous vide at the final temperature, the time it would take to properly brown it will overcook it. Thanks, Randy. Do this instead. Do this instead.
+
+[43:48] Cook it at uh medium uh medium rare, like fifty seven or something like this, um, and do it for a long time to tenderize it. You know, as long as you have. Then uh for four hours, three two somewhere between three and four hours before you have to serve it, pull it out of the b uh uh the bath, right? Four hours before you serve it, pull it out of the bath. Open it up, let the surface dry off, cool it down in the open air for several hours, right?
+
+[44:18] Uh, and then, like as it starts cooling down, throw it into your a billion degree oven, and then uh you can brown it and it will have cooled enough that it won't overcook, but you'll also still be good on the inside. And I think that's a better way to go. That's how I typically do uh that kind of stuff. You can, in fact, uh let it cool all the way down and then just roast it in super high uh heat oven and be good. Or you can chill it in water and do it, but that's what I would do.
+
+[44:45] And uh we have uh I gotta read this or Ken's gonna rip my head off, right? Because we're we're we're about to be we're about to be ripped off the air. There's something else we needed to talk about today. What was it? Oh, the Ferro's coffee coffee grinder.
+
+[44:55] I'm not gonna get to talk about the Ferris Coffee Grinder. Is anyone interested in the Ferris Coffee Grinder? No. Stas is not interested. I think there are some people who are interested.
+
+[45:01] It's very good grinder, needs some modifications. I have a uh I have a bunch of uh STL files that people can print that I'm gonna put up on the on my Twitter account eventually so that people can modify their Ferro's grinders. Okay. Uh Ken writes, uh, I was a little disappointed that an entire show is not devoted to my last email on Parmenides and the epistemology, uh the epistemology of the sandwich, although uh I might be a little behind on the podcast. No, we did not go into it on over a whole thing.
+
+[45:28] Although the sandwich has been brought up several times. I'm not gonna get into it now because I'm just gonna go crazy if I do. Undaunted, I write again and ask, could this idea amount to something? Consider that most slow cooker meat recipes require initial searing in a separate vessel because you cannot get the Mayard reaction in traditional slow cooker, except for the dump and go meals. What are they called?
+
+[45:46] Dump meals? Yeah, dump yeah. Dump meals. Terrible idea, dump meals. Uh similarly, um usually reverse issue with sous vide cooking.
+
+[45:55] Uh, we have the ability to add various umami elements to cooking, such as anchovies, marmeat, mushrooms, soy uh sauce, fish sauce, uh, and uh somewhere in the same neighborhood are products like liquid smoke. Uh don't forget coconut aminos. Do you like coconut amino stuff? I don't know. Coconut aminos.
+
+[46:11] Do you like the name? Sure. Oh, yeah. Uh I have this dim memory of Dave getting some press years ago for a burger, not the ketchup soup dumpling thing, but another process in which he cooked meat separate from the burger to extract some flavor to add later. So with that as a background, could there be manufactured self-stabilized freeze-dried Mayard powder uh or group of powders with a fairly wide utility?
+
+[46:30] If this is a worthy idea to pursue, then in lieu of a MacArthur Genius Award, I would be happy with a Booker Index, uh, I don't know, maybe uh Booker Index Award. Best Kenningberg. Well, what I used to do is I would make like hyper thick uh I would like roast the hell out of a lot of meat and then just uh make like a hyper broth of that and then reduce that down and then circulate meat in that hyper in that hyper broth. So the entire inside of the hamburger uh tasted like uh this kind of hyper broth. So it was a little bit poached, but it was okay because then I was gonna pull it out and sear the hell out of it anyway.
+
+[47:08] But the because what I noticed when you're doing a lot of low temp cooking is that you never have a lot of those high heat flavors on the meat, even if you do a post sear on it. So that's why, like, you know, if we're dealing with like uh short ribs and stuff, uh uh there's textual reasons as well, but taste reasons why it's never gonna taste quite the same. So I would do it. People make meat extracts, like the flavor industry makes meat extracts, and we could and and like conceivably you could buy like a hyper meat extract uh that you know was all brown and stuff that didn't have eight boatloads of salt in it, which is the reason why you can't use bullion cubes and stuff like that. Because the bullion cube is MSG, which all of you know I have no problem with necessarily, even though I don't really use it.
+
+[47:49] Uh, salt, which unfortunately would add a lot, and then the rest of it is like these flavors. So, yeah, someone doesn't someone make meat, straight meat extract. Any of you guys British? What about bovarol? What's bovel?
+
+[48:01] No one's British here? No. Anyway, I don't know. We'll work on it. Let anyone know, come into the chat room.
+
+[48:07] Next time I'll talk about Ferros and some other stuff. Talk about the first week of the museum exhibit on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[48:37] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This program has been brought to you by Cider Week New York City, happening November 6th through 15th, 2015. For more information, check out CiderweekNYC.com. Cider Week helps to bring profitability to local orchards while reviving heirloom apple varieties by cultivating awareness of craft cider. Cider Week connects cider makers from New York State and select pioneering guest cideries outside the state to buyers from top restaurants, bars, and retail shops across New York City. Those culinary tastemakers in turn help increase consumer awareness of cider's pleasures by hosting public events, tastings, dinners, classes, and pairings that build appreciation and demand for regional ciders.
+
+[0:43] Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Every Tuesday, always late, supposed to be here at 12. Am not.
+
+[1:19] Yeah. Got Nastasio the Hammer, Lopez, here in the uh in the shipping container. And in an engineering booth, we got Njackie Molecules Insley and Rebecca. How you guys doing? Oh, yeah.
+
+[1:33] I'm good. It's good to be back. I'm just playing this crazy video on loop. Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, I actually talked about that.
+
+[1:39] It's it's horrifying. So, so you know, like uh, I was going through my box of crap the other day, and uh I came across uh by the way, calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 7184972128. So I'm going through my box of crap the other day, and I noticed uh an old VHS tape from when I was in uh art school, like back in like 95, 96, something like this. And uh it's a piece I did called what what I am thinking about.
+
+[2:11] And pretty much, and I had been making like flipbooks of this image in my mind for for years, years, like little flipbooks. Have any of you guys ever seen my little elf character I draw sometimes? Yes. Yeah, it's that that elf character, it's been with me for for years. So anyway, so um I uploaded the video to YouTube.
+
+[2:30] I got someone to dig digitize the uh VHS, which is super low quality. I wish I could find the original discs. And by the way, like it was really hard. Like when you see it, you'll know. Like it was really hard because I'm walking a very long distance in it, and so to do the chroma key on it back in the like mid-90s, like the computers weren't so great.
+
+[2:48] And so uh I rolled a giant like uh 200 uh foot long sheet of paper down uh my mom's uh street outside of her house, and had a friend walk behind me with a giant blue uh sheet that I had painted, like rolling it behind me as I walked. And uh so you you know there's some bleed through. I had some problems with the chroma key, I had some interlacing problems when I was doing the early. It was like after effects version one or something like that. Whatever, whatever.
+
+[3:13] What does it mean? Okay, well, let me explain what the video is. You can it's on YouTube, you can go look at it. Like search chat room got it. Oh, they got it?
+
+[3:21] I got it. Alright. So it's called uh so so basically it's just this elf who's me, like it, like an infinite number of me just jumping into a wood chipper over and over and over and over and over again with a band playing. Like that's what it is. That there's no more meaning than that.
+
+[3:37] Isn't art supposed to seem dumb? This is what I'm thinking about. It's I told you this many times. I know, but what's people who are so Rebecca said she can figure out she could write an essay on it. Yeah, of course.
+
+[3:51] I spent, you know, like many, many, many hours critiquing this piece. And uh, you know, like defending it and critiques and all this other stuff. Kind of felt like lemmings. Yeah, you know. Well, the the whole point of it, I'll give you a little hint, Styles, a little insight.
+
+[4:04] I'll give you a little insight. Notice that I'm not I'm not upset about it. Just jumping in the wood chipper. Yeah. Just there.
+
+[4:10] Here I am, jumping in the wood chipper again and again and again. Just keep jumping in the wood chipper. And it's very important that it's not gore, that it's like it's you know, it's cartoon blood coming out of the side of the wood chipper. And uh, I believe, I believe this is pre-Fargo woodchipper. I believe.
+
+[4:27] I believe this is pre pre-Steve Busemi jamming his enemies into a wood chipper. Pretty sure. Anyway, so uh, and pretty much any time you see me staring off into the distance nowadays, this is what's going on in my head. Ban inch, dinch, dan inch, dent. Yeah.
+
+[4:48] Tim in the chat room says it reminds him of a craft for video. Oh, no, I'll I'll take that as a compliment. I went back to my high school, which I hadn't been to in, you know, like five, six years or something like that. And uh, I was like, I need a sousaphone, and I need a bass drum and a cymbal. And they're like, All right, let me take it to my mom's house and like film the video with that stuff.
+
+[5:07] I sewed the elf outfit myself, and the curly shoes are real. I still own them. And uh there used to be a leather joint in the uh in um Soho. They moved uh outside up near Chelsea. They might be gone now.
+
+[5:21] Run by a guy who any time you bought anything from As You Leaf, he'd be like, God bless. That's all you would ever say, God bless. AR leather. Uh and uh yeah, I got all the green suede from him, made the lass, made the shoes, you know. It was a full, full service, you know, art project back in the day.
+
+[5:38] Anyway, still thinking about it. Figured I'd post it there. How was your Halloween? How many, how many, how many listeners did I just lose when they're like, that's what that guy's thinking about? I'm out.
+
+[5:48] I'm out. I mean, how was your Halloween? Kids were freaking animals. Crazy. I had listen to this.
+
+[5:56] I had 150 full-size freaking candy, full-sized candy bars. And by the way, a good selection. Jack, name me some candy bars. Uh, Snickers. Had it.
+
+[6:05] Three Musketeers. Had it. Twix. Had it. Mr.
+
+[6:08] Good Bar. Did not. But I did I had Fifth Avenue and I had paydays. Ooh, paydays. Payday.
+
+[6:14] I like the payday. Underrated bar. Everyone loves everyone who can have peanuts enjoys the payday, but no one talks about the payday. Yeah, I like it. Yeah.
+
+[6:21] Also, like I always like to have a certain amount. I also had like the entire MM, like, you know, the all of the new and the regular MMs. Ooh, like the pretzel MMs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[6:30] Mega, which are the large scale MMs. Coconut, right? I don't know if they had those at the store or but I also had like uh uh not the full range of Skittles because there's 150 different kinds of Skittles almost at this point, but like, you know, a decent Skittle selection. The full size Twizzler, which by the way would be my call, the full size sour patch pack. Yeah, Stas is turned off her vegan face for that one.
+
+[6:49] And uh so, anyways, it's like uh, you know, I had 150 and uh pounded it, gone. Gone. I had to go out, I bought 50 more, and they still wiped us out. Booker and Dax were so depressed because they thought they were gonna have all this candy left over. But then, of course, I went, when you know, we started cooking dinner and Booker got picking anyway, so Jen took away all of his candy.
+
+[7:10] I don't think she threw it away. She's not like she's not that. She's not the it's going in the shoot. Because you see, in new when you live in New York, you have a trash shoot. Once that stuff's gone, there's no getting it back.
+
+[7:20] You know what I mean? It's not like some sort of secret fake trash like you might have somewhere in the suburbs or something like this. It's like if it goes in the chute, that's it's done. There's no like going out to the curb and trying to resurrect it or anything, you know what I mean? We have an announcement.
+
+[7:32] Jen's gonna be on the show at some point. Well, that's not an announcement if we don't have the point yet. Before the end of this year. We have to say it out loud, and then it'll happen, maybe, right? Well, d the people actually want my wife to come on.
+
+[7:42] Were they gonna call and ask her questions or something? Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, do you you know, tweet on in if that's what you want to have happen?
+
+[7:49] Let me know. Uh also, uh, so you know, the museum, this has been the first week of the museum being open to the public. Um, tomorrow will actually be the whole first week because we're closed Monday, Tuesday, so we were open from Wednesday to Sunday. And I think it went really well. I still have some stuff to fix, but I think it went really well.
+
+[8:06] And I've been going to Greenpoint more, so I've been going to all the Polish joints. I gotta get Lukash, you know, the to help me out. I bought so in Poland uh they have this soup, which I think is called Zurek. I think that's how you pronounce it. And it's got in it this stuff called Zur, which I thought was Zure, as in like Zur and the Coden Armada.
+
+[8:26] Are you a last Starfighter fan? Jack, last Starfighter, anyone? Robert Preston's last movie, freaking the great Robert Preston from The Music Man. You're familiar with Robert Preston stuff? No.
+
+[8:36] What the hell? The hell is wrong with you people? Seriously. America, you live in it, learn it. Anyway, the last star the last Starfighter was awesome because it was one of the first times when uh video games were painted in a very kind of good light.
+
+[8:49] This guy did nothing but play this video game called The Last Star Fighter, and he lived in a kind of a trailer, not kind of, he lived in a trailer park and he played it, but he got like the like like the a universe-wide uh high score. And it turned out that these video games have been planted all over the universe, which is strange because you'd think that like you know they would have had better technology all over the universe. But no, they were using 1980s video games. So they planted them all over the universe, and people who got super high scores were actually sucked up, brought out into space to become star fighters to fight against Zur and the Kodan Armada. See what I'm saying?
+
+[9:20] See? Anyways, and so Polish. Polish. So anyway, so Zur. But I didn't tell you my favorite part about last star.
+
+[9:26] Well, if anyone cares about last Starfighter, we can have a Last Star Fighter conversation someday. The best part about that is this guy, I this is a life lesson I took. At the end, the Kodans are smashing into a planet, like their starship has been destroyed by you know the Starfighter guy. They're going in, and the guy who's kind of a wussy is like, what's the thing's crashing? What do we do now?
+
+[9:46] And the guy goes, he has this little eyepiece with a motor on it that goes like a heads-up display, and he goes, and he just looks at him and goes, we die. And then the thing goes, but I'm like, that's a baller way to go out. The Kodans know how to go out. They might have been evil, but they know how to go out. So back to Jure, aka Zur.
+
+[10:03] It's fermented rye flour. So it's like a sourdough, but real thick, and it's used as the base of this sour soup called uh Zurek, which is really awesome. Lukash said it's like kind of Polish version of Miso, but the soup is really good. I need the the short story is I need to learn a lot more about Polish food because everything I've had so far, even though obviously I don't know how to actually make it, so I'm just guessing based on what I read, what the stuff's supposed to taste like. But stuff's straight up delicious.
+
+[10:28] You know what's really good? Is uh sauerkraut and uh mushroom like hacked together and cooked like pierogi mix. I think it's from a Piero Gi mix, but anyway, good stuff. Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about today. So, what was I supposed to be talking about today?
+
+[10:42] We have some Twitter questions. Uh all right, let's do a Twitter question, then I'll do a question that came in on the uh on the give me a Twitter question. Give it to me. Well, first off, do you like the new heart and how they got rid of the star for the fave? Wait a minute, what?
+
+[10:54] The new what? They got rid of the star for favoring tweets, and there's a little tiny heart. I hadn't noticed. Do I don't know, do I like it or do I hate it? Social media queen.
+
+[11:06] I don't like it. So what's the difference? Uh it's a heart. So they're trying to Instagram it? Is that it?
+
+[11:11] It's trying to be more like Instagram? Exactly. I like things to be separate. I don't like muddy, I don't like waters muddied. I don't I know I'm agree with you.
+
+[11:17] I'm a category kind of a guy. I like categories to stay the same. You know how like when you when you go to college and then you come home for the first like ten years, something changes in the house every time you come home and it pisses you off? It's like that. It's like that.
+
+[11:29] And by the way, the guy who does the video, the guy who did the last Sears All video, which uh you you should all take a look at the last uh Sears All video that uh Chris did for us. Uh the one where he's like has the secret Sears all that with whispers and stuff. Anyway, uh he claims to have done this uh what we're talking about, changing like a a well-loved program. He got some serious, serious backlash. So is there a serious backlash on this Twitter thing or no?
+
+[11:53] For sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh I have to say I did it. Yeah, I made a persimmon puree the next day. It had a s it has solidified into a very, very firm gel.
+
+[12:04] Any idea why and how to prevent that? Well, I mean, percent it's full of pectin, but the first question I have is are we talking what kind of persimmon are we talking? That's all I got. What kind of persimmon? We need to figure out what kind of persimmon we're talking about.
+
+[12:15] Because uh you know what's new I've never cooked with? I've always wanted to is the native uh persimmon. I saw one growing in Washington, DC once on the mall, and even though I was probably expressly forbidden to, I I jumped up, grabbed one, and ate the hell out of it because no one's gonna eat it. What do you guys think about this? When you're in a a place, right?
+
+[12:32] And like obviously, if everybody took a persimmon, there wouldn't be any performance. But the fact of the matter is that all of them, all of them, every one is going to hit the ground and rot, right? Every single one. So if you really, really care, like really care. Shouldn't you just eat one?
+
+[12:47] What do you guys think? Yeah, like at the Brogdale, right? Gotta eat them to save them. You gotta eat them to save 'em. And I'm not even ripping the tree down.
+
+[12:56] It's not like I have to like slice the slice the bark off and like girdle the tree like you do with a pig, and you murder it to save it. Like this is Yeah. So I don't know, what do you guys think? You guys was I wrong to take the persimmon? No way.
+
+[13:08] When I was at Montecello, you know, uh, was I wrong to taste some of the fruit that was clearly gonna go to waste because nobody was eating it? No way. Yeah, right. I mean, yeah, I took a rock from the uh that's evil. You better not say it on air, you're gonna get a blast.
+
+[13:22] Okay, I want you guys to know what Stas is really like. All right, say, say it. From the uh, what's it called? Parthenon. Yeah, Stas took a freaking rock from the freaking Parthenon, which is just wrong.
+
+[13:31] It's evil. It's like destroying cultural patrimony. It's like it's evil under a tree. It's just wrong. It's just wrong.
+
+[13:41] Yeah, yeah. Give me that, give me that again. Survey says, Yeah. It's not right. All right.
+
+[13:51] So we got let me get a question that we got, and we'll go back to two other questions. Hey, Jack, this is gonna need a jack. First, I wanted to thank Dave and Nastasia for answering my writing question back in March, uh, when I asked uh Nastasi about Stanford and how Dave and Nastasia met. Um this time I have a question for Dave regarding writing cookbooks. This past year I helped a bioengineering professor teach one of the first cooking classes at Stanford that was essentially the science of cooking.
+
+[14:14] He's considering taking his lecture material along with recipes and writing a science of cooking cookbook. So I wanted to ask, what are some of the biggest challenges you faced when writing your book? Also, any advice or suggestions would be great, best Kevin. All right, well, here's the first one, straight up. Don't write somebody else's book.
+
+[14:31] So what you have to do is just look at McGee's book and be like, how's my book going to be different? Right? So that's the first thing. Like, like you have to differentiate yourself from Harold McGee's book. You also have to differentiate yourself from the modernist cuisine series.
+
+[14:44] Kenji's book. Will you let me finish? Yeah, yeah. Kenji's book, which by the way, apparently is selling like great guns, like selling like crazy. So they're all a little bit different, right?
+
+[14:52] So McGee's book is obviously like the reference book, right? The modernist cuisine book is the book for um like the book for kind of new techniques, you know what I mean, in terms of like just an exposition of new techniques and cooking. Kenji's book is kind of like uh home recipes treated in kind of a scientific fashion and kind of like his blog series, you know, that he wrote, well, the his columns for serious eats, if you know that. So it, you know, these are the kind of like three things, and then there's a host of other ones. So like on baking and science, you have like Shirley Corriger and you have like like all these other kinds.
+
+[15:29] So it's like your goal is going to be to differentiate yourself, right? Now, if you're just saying you're gonna write it as a textbook and you're gonna force people to buy it, and all you care about is like the fact that you're gonna force a certain number of students to buy every year, that's different. But if you're actually writing a book book, uh, especially in that field where you have some big, big uh kind of uh things to live up to, just make sure you're differentiated. And then, you know, obviously if you're dealing with uh, you know, a bioengineering person, I don't know what the I don't know what their cooking chops are like, right? So it helps when you're writing a cookbook to really know the subject like really well.
+
+[16:07] So like maybe they have really great cooking chops. I don't know. You know what I mean? But it's it it's helpful. Um I think it's a lot easier to write a book when you know the the depth of knowledge you have on the subject is two, three and four times deeper than what you actually write because then everything seems kind of richer and more textured.
+
+[16:25] You know what I'm saying, Stas? Mm-hmm. Anyway. Is this good advice? Anyway, wait, is this good advice?
+
+[16:29] I don't know. It's okay. So it's not great. It's okay. Um also test the hell out of your recipes.
+
+[16:35] Just test the hell out of your recipes. If you should test them, but also you should get someone who doesn't know uh the subject to test them. Also you should get someone who doesn't know science to read your text. Because it's almost impossible for a science head to write a science book uh that actually makes sense to someone who doesn't already know the answers. So uh and you know give it to people to read who don't understand.
+
+[16:59] Now listen don't when the when the person comes back and and tries to change it to something that makes sense to them almost invariably you will look at what they what they've changed it to and you'll be like, no that's scientifically wrong now. Now it's wrong. And what that means, that's a note to you in your head that you didn't explain it right the first time. So you need to recast the entire thing. And that's why it takes forever to freaking write anything.
+
+[17:20] You know what I'm saying, Stu? Is that better now? Yes, yeah. Also if it's thick enough Nastasi will use it to separate hot and cold foods. But it has to be like three hundred, four hundred pages and like you know just the that right thickness to make sure that by the time she gets off the subway.
+
+[17:35] Can't be too heavy. She can't use this Kenji's book for this. So, like, you know, like this is perfect. Yeah, mine mine is the perfect thickness to keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold. Um all right.
+
+[17:46] Let me see. Next question. Um this in uh from uh Pedro Paiva. You think that's how you pronounce that? P A I V A Paiva?
+
+[17:58] Anyway. Hope everything's okay over there. Probably already gotten tons of questions regarding this issue. But if not, can we have Dave's point of view on uh the red pro and red and processed meats thing from the World Health Organization? Oh, yeah.
+
+[18:12] That's what they were talking about last week. World. Yeah. Well, the truth of the matter is uh oh, I asked uh my girlfriend who is a doctor, and the answer was that almost everything uh will cause cancer uh if you eat it like there's no tomorrow. Uh keep up with the good work.
+
+[18:27] Okay. So I didn't have uh uh a boat ton of time to uh look into this. Uh but uh I will I went to the uh the WA show, which is who dot int, right, is their is their website, and I looked up their QA. And so you gotta remember is all they've done is they've classified hoopt, they've classified um because in my head that's how Justino is said too. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:52] But the uh they've classified meat as a carcinogen, meaning that they feel they feel the epidemiological studies are good enough to say that it causes cancer. You know, definitely, you know what I mean? Good epidemiology, but not that doesn't mean that that there's a huge increase related to it. First of all, let me just be very clear. As far as I can tell, and someone tweeted and tell me I'm wrong, please, please.
+
+[19:15] Someone tweeted and tell me I'm wrong. But uh, I don't believe there's any new studies. This is just an aggregation and a decision based on studies that are already out there. So if you already thought the studies that were out there were crap or horse hockey, then nothing has changed, right? And here's what they said.
+
+[19:29] Here's what they said. Uh according to this is how many question twelve. How many cancer cases every year can be attributed to the consumption of processed meat and red meat? You ready for this? Who said this?
+
+[19:45] This is this is who uh according to the most recent estimates by the Global Burden of Disease Project. That's good. The Global Burden of Disease Project, an independent academic research organization. About 34,000 cancer deaths per year worldwide are attributable to diets high in processed meats. That seems really weak.
+
+[20:07] 34,000 worldwide. Worldwide. How many billions are we now, guys? Also show me those diets. Yeah, I know.
+
+[20:16] Look, all those studies are horrible. But show me, show me that show me that th 34,000 out of how many billion? Eight. I don't know. Many.
+
+[20:24] Anyway, uh are attributed are attributable to diets high in processed meat. And here, eating red meat has not yet been established as a cause of cancer. However, if the reported associations were proven to be causal, the Global Burden of Disease Project has estimated that diets high in red meat could be responsible for 50,000 cancer deaths per year worldwide. Also, remember, these are diets high in those things. Not any consumption of those things, but high in those things.
+
+[20:49] And so we're talking, I believe, for uh processed meat, what they're talking about is 50 uh grams a day. So roughly two ounces of processed meat every day. Which is more than I, you know, more than I eat. I mean, I wish I ate more processed meats, because I love them. They are delicious.
+
+[21:09] I don't know. Anyway. So I think pretty weak. But uh at some point, either someone that I know that's this percentage. Wow.
+
+[21:17] Yeah. Wow. Wow, that's a lot of zeros before the first number. Yeah. Um anyway, the point being that uh I wouldn't worry about it overly much.
+
+[21:26] And you know what? Like, if I had to give up uh country ham or like take that billion percentages of zeros and like and like add that to my thing, like I think I take the hand. Yeah. You know what I mean? Anyway, got a caller.
+
+[21:40] Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, um, I have a question about wine. Um I've been making a concerted effort to drink more wine and to start appreciating it more. Good man. And um in in uh in my efforts, I'm wondering when you're um sort of profiling the aroma of a wine, is there any technique or way that you're aware of?
+
+[22:04] And this is goes for food in general, too, to sort of like reset your um your sense of smell. Um because like I get like 30 seconds into smelling a glass and then like get used to the smell, and I can't tell, I can't uh sort of latch on to um what it what exactly reminds me of before I can't even smell it anymore. Um it's a good problem. So I think everything depends on kind of what what you're uh specifically tasting. Like what there are things and I wish I had remembered.
+
+[22:36] Why am I so stupid? Like uh the flavorists who do this kind of thing for a living, smell things for a living, they have things that they specifically do to kind of get around this. And he and Jack, Fasttag, the guy who was our consultant in the uh in the exhibition was like, Yeah, I do, and now it's erased. I remember him saying, Yeah, I do, and that's gone. Isn't that crazy?
+
+[22:54] Yeah. I hate that. But like it depends. So, like, for instance, like uh for palate cleansing, if you're doing country hams, it's apple juice, not cider juice. Uh when you're doing wines, I mean a lot of times, uh I mean, if you're eating something, it's relatively easy.
+
+[23:09] You just want to make sure you're eating something that's not gonna like rip the wine apart. You know what I mean? Like nothing in ass high in acid, uh, you know, too too high in acid. Um but also like I just like put it down for a while and do other stuff till I clear out and then kind of pick it up again. But I don't do like constant nosing.
+
+[23:26] Like I'm not like we should ask uh Jeff. Why don't you text uh Jeff or I don't have this number? Anyone? Anyone tweeting in what they use? Come on, chat room.
+
+[23:36] Hook me up. But uh I also find it's really like smell your hand. Ooh, let me see. Onions. They say chop onions.
+
+[23:45] You know, if you chop a lot of onions, like it takes me two or three days to get the onion smell off my fingertips. That doesn't happen to you? Or if you eat a lot of onions, it comes out. Garlic, yeah, that happens to me with garlic. It's the worst, right?
+
+[23:56] Don't you hate like waking up in the morning and like you garlic? You're like, get out, get out. There's actually like research studies in this, so like I wouldn't mean I don't know, smell your hands. Tell me if they smell like garlic. I don't know.
+
+[24:06] No? What do you cook last night, says? Uh eggplant parm. Ooh, really? For real?
+
+[24:12] I didn't bread it. So in what sense eggplant parms does? Just the eggplant and sauteed and uh with tomato sauce and the mozzarella slice on top. Nice. That's not an eggplant parm.
+
+[24:25] Phil was over, he didn't want to eat heavy. What? Did you squeeze out all the water? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it good?
+
+[24:34] Yes. Really? Yes. Was it stringy? No, I no.
+
+[24:38] I bought uh a thin one. And the skin wasn't gross? No. Alright. Alright.
+
+[24:46] Jack, what's your thoughts? Uh and Rebecca, what are your thoughts on the non-fried eggplant parm? I think it's kind of has to be fried. You would like it. I'm sure I'd like it.
+
+[24:55] Although in uh the hip pressure cooking book, I haven't tried it, but there is a pressure cooked eggplant parm style thing. Here's my thing. I'm sure it's delicious. It's not what I consider an eggplant farm. Sure, but what do I call it?
+
+[25:06] I don't know. Was there Parmigiano on it? No. There wasn't eggs like I mean, like, quite clearly. Quite clearly.
+
+[25:15] No parm. No freaking parm. Was it made by someone from Parma? No parm. No part Parmigiano.
+
+[25:22] Like, you know what I'm saying? Because Phil's not eating much dairy either. What a dilly. It's like, the hell. Just eat a raw eggplant.
+
+[25:31] Just give them a raw freaking eggplant and just chow on it like a goat. You know what I mean? Christ's sakes. Did you answer this guy's question? I don't know, did I?
+
+[25:41] Is he still there? I don't know. Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Alright, cool.
+
+[25:46] Well, listen, I want people to tweet in the answer because I'm just not good at that stuff. You know what I mean? Anyway, someone will do it. Alright. Okay.
+
+[25:52] Uh let me see. I'm actually gonna get to some of these questions here. Okay. Uh this is from uh Wade uh Taneth. Longtime listener, want to say thanks for the interesting food ideas.
+
+[26:02] Last week, Chris from the green zone. This is a follow-up. This is a good one, people. Last week, Chris from the green zone called in about his attempt to make a chartreuse like liquor, which precipitated, you know, flocked out after adding the honey. I think you are correct, suggesting it could be an ionic reaction of suspended green particles with cations in the honey.
+
+[26:23] Uh one idea occurred to me from an application in the pharmaceutical industry which uses hydroxypropocellulose. Hydroxypropocellulose, HPC. Uh to stabilize suspensions of nanoparticles. The HPC is non-ionic and forms a barrier around small particles, preventing them from agglomerating. I love that word.
+
+[26:42] I love that word. Agglomerate. Don't you like that word, Sas? Why? You don't like it?
+
+[26:45] Does it sound like spore to you? A little bit. Really? Do you like aggregate better? Yeah.
+
+[26:49] I prefer agglomerate. Do you like the word preagglomerated? No. Okay. Uh I I do.
+
+[26:56] Agglomerate. It sounds like it sounds like a space word. Agglomerate. Uh it's also unique in that it has excellent solubility in water and ethanol. Uh I think it could help to provide stability for this liqueur.
+
+[27:09] Using sugar instead of honey should help too. My suggestion would be to use 0.3% of, I'm going to spell it, C E L N Y H P C, which stands for hydroxypropocellulose, SSL, uh to stabilize the particles in the liqueur. It is the lowest molecular weight uh weight grade of HPC produced, so it will give some extra body slash mouthfeel, but not thicken too much. For a liter of liqueur, you would add three grams of HPC. Dry mix the three grams of HPC with about 50 grams of sugar.
+
+[27:39] Uh put the liquor in a blender on low and then add the HPC sugar mixture, blend for 30 seconds. It will get a little foamy, but we'll settle to be clear. Full disclosure, uh, Wade works for a Niso, N I S S O, which manufactures uh this product. But anyway, he's playing with it with cocktails for his own fun anyway at home, so we're gonna give it a try. He said he'd send us some.
+
+[27:58] Should we should we get some and play around with it? Yeah, send us some. Wait, the liqueur or the No, the freaking HP C. Hey, Jack, what if they're gonna mail samples like this? Where should they mail it to?
+
+[28:07] Ooh, that's a good question. Uh I will provide that address in a second. In the meantime, we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, this is Rob in New Hampshire.
+
+[28:15] How are you? Doing all right. How's New Hampshire doing? Uh it's nice. Beautiful weather.
+
+[28:19] Yeah, you you setting off fireworks, living free or dying? Love that place. It's the way to be in life. Yeah, yeah. What's up?
+
+[28:27] Hey, uh, quick question. I want to melt a bunch of chocolate in my circulator. So I was just gonna vacuum bag it and throw it in overnight to melt it down. Uh is that a safety problem? No.
+
+[28:40] No, it's a hundred percent fine. The only issue, and I know people that do this because uh you can get exactly accurate so you don't have to do it like up and down, up and down, because you can get it so that you never melt out um you know all of the uh all of the good crystals in it. So uh yeah, it's great. The only problem is you have to make five billion percent sure that you don't um that you don't get water in it. Right, right.
+
+[29:03] So it's it'll just seize up and be nasty. Yeah, and like unless you're doing like a lot, because it's not gonna be like hyper like thin probably, you like there's a a tendency to kind of lose some to the to the bag. So like you know, you gotta you gotta s you gotta s you know, dry the hell out of the bag before you're done, and then get uh like one of those plastic pastry scrapers, put it like down over your thing and sh shoop and like you know, get all the stuff out, or else you end up losing a lot. Especially I don't know what kind of bag you're using, but if you're using one of those uh one of those um um uh just something out, you know, the with the with the with the crisscrosses. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[29:42] Food savers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Food saver, yeah. Yeah, if you're using a food saver bag, like you're gonna lose a lot just to those crisscrosses.
+
+[29:49] You know what I'm saying? But yeah, it's totally doable. Uh is it a pro is it a problem having it 30 to 45 C for twelve hours? Nah. The water activity make that a non-safety issue.
+
+[30:00] Yeah, it's not yeah, there's no there's like remember, there's a zero water activity. Okay. And r and you know, they're they're gr you know, yeah. I can't imagine anything that's gonna I can't imagine anything that's gonna happen in that. I mean, look, someone wrote me back and saying I'm killing people, but I know people that do it.
+
+[30:15] And um, you know, obviously people store chocolate at that temperature in its molten state for a long, long time, not in a vacuum, but they're they'll have a giant vat of it, and then you know, the stuff at the bottom is not like it's getting a lot of oxygen. So, yeah, no. Right. I I I mean I I looked up some numbers and cocoa butter is like 0.41 to 0.56, water activity and curvature is around point three. So nothing lives below point eight five or something, right?
+
+[30:45] Yeah, uh I don't know the exact numbers, but remember like water is the complete enemy. Like water is the the complete enemy of chocolate. So I don't think in other words, like I don't think anything will grow. You're not killing anything, so if there's anything in there, it you know, it's not gonna kill it. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:00] But I don't think it's it's there's nothing there for it there's nothing there for things to grow on, you know what I mean? Right. So you don't have to worry about the botulin toxin. That's always been my big scare with putting stuff in bags. Yeah, no, look, it's also like got like a pretty hefty dose of sugar in there, which even if there was a little water, you know, would like form such a concentrated syrup that it would be hosed.
+
+[31:21] You know, nothing can I don't think anything can survive in that. Awesome. Yep. All right, have fun. All right, thanks.
+
+[31:29] So this mailing address. Oh, yeah, yeah, do it. Yeah, so it's one one three zero Bedford Ave, box three oh one, Brooklyn, New York, one one two one six. You can rewind if you missed that. Yeah.
+
+[31:44] Uh let me take the last question that we had in on the email, and then maybe uh Ru Rebecca, you have a couple more for me for uh Twitter or no? That's a thumbs up. All right, cool. All right. Greetings from Pittsburgh, uh from Justin.
+
+[31:57] Uh oh wait, no, this is two questions. Greeting from Pittsburgh. This is Sarah. I've been making uh an aging eggnog, raw eggs, cream, maple syrup, nutmeg, cinnamon, a bourbon, rum, and brandy for a few years now, and I think I am narrowing in on the best mix of ingredients and aging. The longest I have let it age is about thirteen months.
+
+[32:16] But I usually let it go uh but I usually let it go for eleven months. My question to Dave is how long is too long? Is there a point it will stop mellowing out and begin to be unpleasant? Or is it possible it will get even better? Totally possible, Sarah, that it might get better.
+
+[32:31] I don't know what the answer like because here's the here's the issue. Here's what you need to do. Like obviously, duh. What you need to do. I've had eggnog uh two years and three years old, I think.
+
+[32:40] Nick Bennett, remember, had some that was uh he I forget how old the oldest one he had was Nick Bennett, who now is you know at Porch Light, killing it, doing awesomely. Um forget how old the oldest one he has, but it's the question is is it gonna get better? That's gonna be a matter of taste. And so here's what you need to do. You need to make the same recipe three years running.
+
+[32:59] You can make whatever you want, like as well, but you're gonna make uh like at least enough to save a bottle and have a bottle every year. So you're gonna make at least three extra bottles. Okay. And then uh you're gonna do that every year. And then year three, or year four, I guess, you'll have uh a bottle of three year old, a bottle of two year old, and a bottle of one year old, and you'll taste them all side by side.
+
+[33:23] I think we have some at the lab, the lab that's like three years old now. In that low boy? Yeah. Oh my god. Does it have to be refrigerated?
+
+[33:31] Uh I don't know. I think it I don't know, man. Oh, geez. All right, Stas and I may or may not, if we ever go back, because we're the we're supposed to not have a lab anymore, but we have a low boy somewhere that apparently has some eggnog in it. And we'll taste it.
+
+[33:44] But we don't know if it's better or worse because we don't know what it tasted like at the get go. Yeah, we did. I don't. Yeah, you had some. I didn't.
+
+[33:50] Yes, you did. You did. Uh you'll know. You'll make it. Yeah, and Stots isn't pulling any punches.
+
+[33:54] She's, you know. Stas mean that way. Okay. Um Justin from Forest Hills writes in I was wondering if Dave had any suggestions for projects or resources to learn soldering and other basic electronic skills. I don't think I'm comfortable animating dead frogs, but I would greatly appreciate any other suggestions.
+
+[34:13] Did I talk about that on the air once or something? Most likely. Really? Anyway. Yes, I would not start uh for your first soldering project uh animating uh dead frogs.
+
+[34:22] But um the problem with soldering is like you gotta remember, like I'm old, right? So, like when I was when I was a kid, we still used wire wrap. You know what I mean? With for those of you that are really, really old. And then, like, you know, all of the components that I would solder were all through hole components, meaning like, you know, you put pins through a board and solder them.
+
+[34:42] Whereas now, like the cool thing to do is like all kind of surface mounted stuff, which is impossible for me to solder because it's so fine pitch. Buy a decent soldering iron. First thing is buy a good soldering iron with a very fine uh tip. Get yourself some decent solder. I someone must make a good lead-free solder now, but most of the solderers that you buy are really crap at wedding.
+
+[35:03] Uh and then just go online and choose like a you know, go on uh attafruit or go on uh Spark Fun and find some sort of like fun cooking thing that you want to do. Like I want to build them, I don't have time, but I want to build some moisture meters so I can auto-water some plants. I'm gonna put some citrus up and auto-water it. That'd be pretty cool, right, Stas? Right.
+
+[35:21] So then you get a board with a kit and you saw solder it up and you know, practice, and then eventually, you know, in no time you'll do some microprocessor development, and then you'll be doing your own boards, and then you're gonna go, you know, right, you know, nowadays it's like it's child's play. You just learn some uh PCB, which is the board editing software, and you know, you output and like two days later, someone ships you a board in the mail. It's not even prohibitively expensive anymore. When I was a kid, if you wanted to make a board, you got out a drill, you got uh uh, you know, you you took you to your Xerox machine and you Xeroxed uh a black and white negative of what you wanted. You painted the no, not black and white, not reverse.
+
+[35:57] It wasn't a negative, it was uh the positive. You'd paint a board, a copper board with uh with goop, and then you'd put the paper that you put the uh the uh clear plastic that you put in the Xerox machine over it, you'd expose it with a light, then you'd wash off the goop that you hadn't cured. I guess it is negative. I don't remember. And then uh you put that in an acid etching bath, etch it out, and then you'd sit there with a drill and drill the hole so that you could put the resistors and parts in.
+
+[36:22] In other words, it was a royal pain in the behind. And like often it didn't work because you didn't etch it right or anything. So the world is a much more fun place for uh soldering stuff now. Um anyway, I don't know. Is that a desinstruction?
+
+[36:35] I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, Rebecca, what do you got for me on the Twit air? Well, we got the persimmon guy right back, and he said it was foo you f-u-y-u you, F U Y U. What the hell did you call me?
+
+[36:47] Anyway, yeah, yeah. So those are the ones that you yeah, eat. It's just gonna look it's gotta be uh uh a pectant. It's just gotta be a pectant issue. Anytime you get like a major setback in uh something, it's it's usually uh pectins.
+
+[36:59] I don't know if there's a lot of other things going on. I've never made a persimmon jelly, so I don't know if they're particularly or like paste. So I don't know if they're particularly kind of hard set. Um I don't know. They feel like they when you imagine in your mouth, you're are you tasting one in your mouth, Daz?
+
+[37:15] Or no? I'm I'm I'm like more of a fan of not the ones that you eat fresh, but the ones that you dry out and blet down and like get all soft and gooey and then dry out. Do you like those like you buy in the Asian stores? No. You don't like persimmon?
+
+[37:28] Not really. How about you, Jack? What about you, Rebecca? Um lukewarm. Lukewarm, man.
+
+[37:33] All right. What even the dried ones? What's that? Even the dried ones? Yeah.
+
+[37:38] What's up, lukewarm? You guys know how. Anyway, someone will tweet in the answer. All right, what else we got? Any ideas for egg white replacement in a whiskey sour?
+
+[37:46] My girlfriend and I love egg white drinks, but she's developed an allergy from Joel. Wow. Huh. Okay. So what would I do here?
+
+[37:56] Well, you you could use uh uh a milk syrup, right? So if you made a milk syrup, uh that would see when when you're making egg white whiskey sour, the egg white's doing two things. It's adding texture to uh the drink, duh, but it's also uh it's also um mellowing out a little bit of the woodiness of the of the um astringency and woodiness of the of the whiskey. So milk syrup would do kind of the same thing. So you could just do you know, milk syrup is one to one milk and uh and sugar in a blender.
+
+[38:32] You blend it till it dissolves, and then for every liter of syrup, you add about an ounce of 15% citric acid solution or like two ounces of lemon juice. Uh while it's stirring. That'll pre-curdle a little bit. If you don't do that, the milk syrup will end up being chalky. That milk syrup will last for a long time in the fridge.
+
+[38:50] It'll separate, but you can just shake it to get it back, and it foams fairly well. Not as well as a whiskey sour does with an egg white, but it foams pretty well. Another thing you can do is milk wash. So you could milk wash the bourbon just by taking bourbon, adding uh adding bur adding a le per for every liter of bourbon. Add a you know, add a liter of bourbon to 250 milliliters of milk uh with stirring, blend in a little bit of citric acid till it breaks, strain out the solids in a cloth, and now you have milk wash bourbon.
+
+[39:22] You should use it probably within a uh within a week or so it'll lose its foaming ability. Um we're running a test now at the bar with sodium hexametophosphate to see whether that'll stabilize it, because I got a tip from somebody in Florida that that might work. So that'll increase the foaminess. You could also uh cheat, you could use uh VersaWhip or something like that, and just make kind of a foam on top and shake, but you still want to add something to the whiskey sour that's going to um mellow the whiskey a little bit, otherwise it's going to be Poquito uh astringent, in my opinion. Anything else?
+
+[39:56] You got anything else? They're gonna rip us off the air in a minute. We should say that you're doing uh uh science of cooking next week at MoFad for people to buy uh tickets, $30 online. Is that true? You'll be doing Ikajime.
+
+[40:07] Okay, listen, people. So Emma Bose, the program director at MoFad is like she's a Japanophile, right? And so she wanted me to do a bunch of crap that I've done recently. I'm like, uh, and I don't have a lot of time to develop kind of new things, although I'm doing a lot of interesting, fun new cooking, but just not like t necessarily technical related. Like it's like the Polish food I'm interested in now and a bunch of other stuff.
+
+[40:30] Although uh Nastasia, by the way, here's big news. Generally, Nastasi and I hate each other. Like we're bad, you know, we're like oil and oil and water. You know what I'm saying? Like, like oil near the smoke point that you pour water on, and then it volatilizes and like catches fire in the fire, and then the whole kitchen's burning.
+
+[40:49] Like, that's normally kind of how we are. However, uh Nastasia is coming to my place for Thanksgiving this year. That is true. Yeah, yeah. I just can't yell at you.
+
+[40:57] Yeah, yeah. You said I can't, I can't. No, you're not allowed to purposely make me get angry on Thanksgiving. That's the that's the one stipulation. You have to put that in check.
+
+[41:07] Yeah. No purposely making me upset. No getting me spooled up and making me yell in front of my kids or anything like this. All right, okay. But we will be doing some fun uh stuff, like for instance, uh, we're gonna I'm gonna do the turkey and the tandoor this year, tandoor turkey.
+
+[41:22] So maybe we can get uh because I don't think I'm gonna get a chance to shoot a turkey in the head because I'm not that good at it, and it would be illegal anyway. Maybe we should should we get some heritage heritage bird? Yeah, tweet out about it. Yeah, yeah. All right.
+
+[41:34] But that wasn't what we were talking about. We were you you said I had to talk about something. Oh, yeah. So like I want to do something relatively new, and she was like, Oh, yeah, the Ikajima in a long time, and I'm actually thinking about Ikajime and slaughtering techniques for my next book as part of my next book. I don't know exactly how I'm gonna do it.
+
+[41:52] I'm gonna do clove oil, probably, and we'll do the ikajime, but you know, I don't know. Uh we gotta see what kind of live fish we can source the demo. But we're gonna do that. We're gonna do some oldies but goodies, like we're gonna do thousand-year old eggs. Uh and we're gonna be at the Bass Pro in Bridgeport.
+
+[42:06] Is that for real? Yeah, 19. Well, we're still working on getting access. The Bass Pro Be there, yeah. Well, we'll be there when Bass Pro opens, but Stas wants to do the radio show.
+
+[42:15] Hey, Jack, uh nice for you to know. We want to do the radio show from the Bass Pro in Bridgeport slash. Totally down to do this. Right? Yeah.
+
+[42:24] When? I don't know. It's the opening and they're giving away a pontoon boat. Stas is making this up. Yeah, that's totally over.
+
+[42:30] She's making this up. That's just a lie. They might be. Look, we love Bass Pro. We might have to do this.
+
+[42:37] We might remote broadcast from uh people, people. I love every little bit as as we go in. It's like it's years later, but you get a little bit of real Stas as we go. This is all wishful thinking on Nastasia's part. She has not yet contacted anyone.
+
+[42:52] There's not even a Bass Pro opening. And they said yes? No, they haven't responded. Exactly. But we are gonna do the show from there.
+
+[43:00] If it's from the your car, we're gonna do the show from there. What? Yes. We got it's the opening. It's the big there's gonna be famous people and hunters.
+
+[43:09] What famous people are gonna do? Hunters. Famous hunters? Yeah. You, you're the famous person.
+
+[43:15] What about Fisher? Uh turkey in the head. I'm not allowed to I don't have a license that allows me to shoot a turkey in the head in the state of Connecticut. And if I did, the only thing I would be allowed to have at the house would be an air rifle, and they don't allow hunting. How many times?
+
+[43:31] They don't allow hunting turkeys with air rifles in the state of Connecticut. Hey, guess what? Uh all right, next week we'll be back with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[43:54] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This program has been brought to you by Cider Week New York City, happening November 6th through 15th, 2015. For more information, check out Cider Weekny C dot com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12, a little late as usual. 1245, thereabouts, 1250. We are super pleased. Oh, we got as usual.
+
+[0:45] We have uh we have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hello. Hello. Uh and actually we're gonna be talking about something that she's a fan of for a freaking change. What?
+
+[0:53] Yeah. Yeah. Jack in the engineering booth. How are you doing, Jack? I'm good.
+
+[0:57] Uh I just got a free bowl of chicken noodle soup from uh Jackie at the Roberta's kitchen. It was really nice of her. Yeah, how is it? It's really good. What kind of noodles?
+
+[1:05] The flat noodles? No, like some kind of handmade pastas in there. Handmade pasta. Have they fallen apart? Have they gotten mushy yet?
+
+[1:12] They're getting there. Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem, right? Yeah. Uh we have also uh Rebecca live tweeting out there.
+
+[1:19] Rebecca, hi hi. But uh we can talk about mushy noodles in a minute because we have with us t this week is Cider Week here in uh in in the Big Apple. And uh presumably do you guys do well, I'll introduce them, I'll ask them whether they also do parries or all these other things, which are getting hugely popular in uh in the UK, right? Perries are just going nuts. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:40] The French, but who cares? No kidding. Well, France is like France. If France were Belgium, they would be the France of pairs. Whatever.
+
+[1:48] I'm not even gonna get into it. Okay. We have John Reynolds here uh from the uh Finger Lakes uh from Black Duck Cider, and he's here to uh you know let us taste out and talk about some ciders. And we also have uh uh Leif uh Sundstrom. Have you remembered pronouncing that right?
+
+[2:01] Yeah, close enough. Sounds from Sandstrom Ciders, and they're in Hudson, New York. Woo and we're here to talk about uh well uh hopefully we'll get to some actual questions later. If not, I'm sure I'll just rip through some at the end or whatever. But you call in your questions, hopefully cider related questions.
+
+[2:16] Too 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Now listen, it is my feeling that anyone who has the time, interest, inclination, and takes the care to make a cider will also have something interesting to say about most cooking questions. So you don't have to have necessarily a cider related question, but it might be helpful. So let's uh To that end I have a caller who called like right at the top of the show, has been waiting, so let's see if it's cider or not.
+
+[2:38] All right, let's see if it's cider caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Jonathan from Tempe, Arizona. How you doing? Not a good apple place, by the way, Tempe, Arizona. Not good, good for many things.
+
+[2:49] I love the smell of Arizona, actually, frankly. When you get off the airplane, that Arizona smell, I like it, but it's not Apple Country. Go ahead, depends on which airport. It is not Apple Co it is not Apple Country, that's right. Yeah.
+
+[2:59] Uh this isn't a cider question, but I will definitely be interested in buying some cider. Uh but it's not but it's a it's a question. Uh I ran into it because I just bought a a Nova circulator. Mm-hmm. And I started doing some uh steaks, and I ran into the problem uh well the exact problem that you made the cerez all for, where I just can't get a good enough crust in a cast iron pan.
+
+[3:22] Right. On like a on a regular residential burner. Yes. But uh I do have uh a baking steel, so I was curious if I should try to maybe put the baking steel on the stove or maybe just heat it in the oven for for an hour, just anything. Um is there any reason to use a baking steel over the cast iron?
+
+[3:45] And granted, um it'll be a while before I can make another kitchen uh kitchen purchase such as a search all. So this is just an interim solution. Right. So I was just wondering if you had any thoughts about baking steel versus cast iron, anything like that. How hot does your uh how hot does your oven get?
+
+[4:02] Five fifty, just a regular residential oven. Yeah. So uh what I would do in this situation, I would first of all uh test this on yourself before you like invite a billion people over for steak. But the thing I would I would try the baking steel, I think that's probably a good thing to try. Crank your oven, heat the hell out of it for a while, and then what I would do is keep the oven super cranked, and I would throw the steaks on one side of the of the thing and then um flip it and hit a different section of your baking steel.
+
+[4:33] By the way, is your baking steel will if how many burners will your baking steel hit if you put it directly on your burners? I mean, I think like two total. Okay. Well, you could put it in 550 oven, right? Get some good mitts, heat it way the hell up to five fifty so it's nice and even, then crank your burners, throw it on your burner, put the steak on, and then flip it and put it over on the other side.
+
+[4:54] The one problem with the baking steel as opposed to a cast iron pan is you're not gonna be able to get a lot of oil on it, and so it's gonna run off and cause fires and flames and smoking, and it's very difficult to get yeah, it's very difficult to get a good sear on a pre cooked piece of meat um because the surface of the cr uh the surface of the meat is all m you know m moundy and bumpy. So you're gonna get big blonde areas where there is a concavity at the meat surface, unless you have a significant quantity of oil. And if you put a significant quant quantity of oil onto a baking steel that's five hundred and fifty to that's a recipe for huge, huge, as Trump would say, huge problems. So I would work with that. You can paint the oil on.
+
+[5:33] Another thing is, are you pre-searing your meat? I'm not, no. Ah pre-sear. Look, I know I know that like our good friend Kenji uh Kenji uh Lopez Alt, uh he doesn't believe that pre-searing is necessary. Here's here's here's where I think he's incorrect about this.
+
+[5:52] Pre-searing reduces the amount of searing time you have to do at the end to get X amount of crust. So if you do a pre-sear on cast iron before you do your low temp cooking and chill it down before you do your low temp cooking, instead of taking two and a half minutes to reach a certain crust level on the side on the outside of the steak, it will only take like a minute and a half. So you can you can greatly increase like how good your crust is, even with your current technologies without lighting fire to your house and pissing off whoever else lives in your house. You can greatly increase the crust you can produce by simply pre-searing the meat before you do it. Put it put it start it.
+
+[6:27] Myard likes my yard, crust likes crust. So you'll get a good flavor development. And while it's true that if you put the same crust on it by doing post sear only, you won't be able to probably tell the difference flavor wise between the two two steaks, and there will be more moisture loss, which again is something we can argue about, but I don't care. I don't mean I don't I care that you care about it, but I don't care. In other words, I'm I'm not anti moisture loss in a piece of meat necessarily.
+
+[6:51] Um anyway, so I I would go that route. I would try to see if a pre sear can help you uh without burning your house down. Yeah, I mean I'd say next time I'll just do one pre-seared, one not pre-seared, see the results, and then go from there. Yeah. Remember, the whole thing about a pre-sear is it's saving you searing time at the end.
+
+[7:09] That's the main thing about a pre-sear. Another thing you another thing you can do is you can uh like uh let the meat rest longer for out of the bag or even put it in a little bit of water to chill it down before you sear it, and then you can do a radically longer sear time on it without overcooking the center. Yeah, I did hear that somebody or I read somewhere where someone will put it bag directly from the circulator into an ice bath for 15 minutes. Yeah. Well, uh, I mean, I'm in general anti-that because um I've run a bunch of tests based on the initial knowledge that I poo-pooed of a guy named Bruno Gousseau, who's kind of the godfather of low temperature cooking, even if he is French.
+
+[7:46] And um the uh I like the French, by the way, I'm just messing. The uh the the uh so the but if you put a bag directly in ice water, you tend to get less uh kind of reabsorption of um the kind of juices, which again I said I don't really care about, but most people when we do the side-by-side taste test, they prefer the meat that is uh allowed to gradually reduce uh in temperature. So I also well anyway, so I'm I'm a fan of just like pull it out of the circulator. Like I pull if you if you're gonna do a hard, hard sear, I'd pull it out of the circulator like like uh a good 45 minutes, maybe 30 to 45 minutes before you're gonna eat it. And then for at least like the first 15 or so, 20, like leave it on the counter, and then if you want to chill it even further, you can put it into regular uh room temp water, uh, you know, you know, regular cold tap water.
+
+[8:34] I wouldn't use ice. And then uh and then you can put a monstrously hard sear on the outside of it and still not overcook the inside. But you have to be careful that you don't render the inside uh so cold that people are like, this steak is not hot in the middle. People don't like that. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:48] Yeah. Especially because beef beef fat, the texture of beef fat gets uh, you know, unless you're like a cold beef fat. There are cold beef fat people. I'm not one. No, no.
+
+[8:57] Me neither. No. All right. Anyway, let us know. Uh uh tweet peep back on uh on to cooking issues and tell us how uh how how it went.
+
+[9:04] All right. Well uh thank you. I'm turning this into the cider hotline. So we're only taking cider and apple calls. And uh we actually have two calls.
+
+[9:12] So one is an apple question, one is a cider question. Okay, listen, Jack, give me give me give these let's give these guys at least 30 seconds each to s to give us like who they are and what's going on. So that we know, and then we'll take the call. Cider calls, stay in the line. All right, say stay on the line.
+
+[9:24] Don't leave us cider calls because we want them. So John. So uh uh I'm Black Duck Cidery. Uh we're up in the finger lakes, basically in wine country. Uh we took really good grape land and planted uh trees starting about 15 years ago, mainly pear and apple trees.
+
+[9:39] So we've made all our neighbors in the finger lakes hate us. Um, you know, because they think it's grape land. Uh and basically three years ago we got a commercial license. Uh these are all natural fermentations, uh our ciders. Uh there's no finding, no filtering.
+
+[9:53] Uh we don't take anything away, we don't add anything. And uh Yeah, we make we make four kinds, and when you were talking about Perry, one of them is a Perry. I did not bring it today because we are sold out, we sell out quick. Um but it is a still period so it's quite different than most of the English or French Perries because there's no carbonation. Cool.
+
+[10:12] And how close are you to Geneva? Uh I'm uh halfway between Geneva and Ithaca, so I'm like 25 minutes uh from Geneva. So and uh I actually worked at the Ag Station at Geneva, so I worked uh where sort of the Noah's arc of apples. With like w when Phil Force Line was still there, were you there? I was I I was.
+
+[10:30] Nice. So you know Phil? Oh, well, I've met him. Yeah, yeah. Phil Force Line, for those of you don't for those of you that don't have no idea what we're talking about.
+
+[10:36] Geneva, New York is the m is like is like the mothership of apples in this country. Uh I mean, straight up, it's like r it's ridiculous. And this guy, Phil Force Line, I guess best known for going to Kazakhstan and bringing a whole bunch of wild types back. He did. And so they have thousands of kinds of wild type apples, many of which could be market apples because they're delicious.
+
+[10:57] And anyway, so you want to go ahead and um talk a little more about that for a sec before. Yeah. Well, I mean, and and and it's uh you know, it's basically the USDA's uh uh germplasm repositories, so they're holding these apples essentially, uh their varieties um basically uh so they don't get lost uh in in history. And then it's true that they went not only to Kazakhstan and Tajikistan um uh but they went to China for collection trips and and basically the theory is that the apple sort of originates in Central Asia. And that's sort of the center point of the you know silk trade route, and you have trade from China, you know, to the Middle East and so forth.
+
+[11:33] And it uh you know, eventually these apples uh sort of go uh, you know, mm well to to where they grow now in Europe and places like that. It spreads to the U.S., obviously people bring them over as settlers. Um but it is an amazing place. It is your tax dollars at work. So the public, no no doubt.
+
+[11:51] So so the public actually can go there certain times of the year and you can go toward these orchards and uh uh you know see uh, you know, two thousand apple varieties, different ones all in the same orchard. If we have time later, I can we can talk about visiting because Nastasi and I we haven't been there. We went to the Brogdale, uh we've been to a couple other uh tastings, but I you know I've been to Geneva with Harold McGee. We could talk about fruit tastings and apple mecca and pilgrimages. Hopefully we'll have have time.
+
+[12:16] But before before we get to callers, Laf, why don't you give us a give us some story? Give us some give us some lathe. So I'm based in the Hudson Valley. I produce cider in a small barn in southern Sagardies. Um I had lived in New York City, Brooklyn, for a number of years, spent roughly ten years working in the wine industry.
+
+[12:33] Um various capacities, importing, distribution, restaurants, spent more than a dozen years of my life in restaurants also, but also worked with wine makers in Oregon and Germany, doing harvest and so forth like that. That really informed a lot of the kind of transition and focus of cider making for me after I left kind of the wine world to focus on something that was a little bit more indigenous, so to speak, to where I'm living, trying to stay rooted in the Hudson Valley and New York State and exploring cider a lot because it's has so much in touch and in line with what drove me to be passionate about wine, but also because there's just a lot of unexplored territory at this point. Um both in recovering a past and history that cider's involved with here in the United States, but also in exploring new frontiers informed by everything from new understandings of flavors and farming and and that kind of thing. Um so yeah, I'm I'm working out there now. We're this year actually, tonight officially is the first commercial release of the cider.
+
+[13:32] I've been producing for several years. Um the directive is generally focused on uh a want of exploring terroir in various areas through cider. Um that is proved to be a little bit of a a naive uh exploratory uh element in my my case because just the access to certain apples with not being your own farmer, growing your own fruit is is incredibly difficult if you're keeping a focus on specific varieties and a specific level of quality. So we're exploring it as much as we can, but um right now uh producing a couple bottlings of last year. One we have here is all from Columbia County fruit, and there's another bottling for single orchard fruit.
+
+[14:09] And this coming year from 2015, it's gonna be a different program altogether, but with a focus on heirloom varieties that are from North America or some cider varieties as well. But hopefully with a focus on limited number of apple varieties per bottling as opposed to large blends. Try and kind of you know focus on what these individual characteristics are for the specific varieties. So a lot to talk about, but collar, let's get some cider collar cider collar one. You are on the air.
+
+[14:36] So we're gonna go with the cider question first. Apple question, stay patient. Hi Dave, how are you? Doing all right. Hi, um this is uh a nice coincidence.
+
+[14:46] So I'm trying to track down the elusive Ashmeads kernel, apple. And so I was wondering if you have any tips for finding that in New York City and or if you have any um substitutions you'd recommend for your liquid intelligence recipe. Yeah. So uh for those of you don't know, I really like Ash Meads kernel because it's uh a high sugar, high acid, extremely rich uh kind of uh apple. There are people who make hard cider f with it, but it's actually I think probably a very challenging apple to make a hard cider with just because uh of its high acid content.
+
+[15:23] So I think you probably need to mean cider people you tell me, but I think it would need a lot of mellowing before you could uh use that to personal preference, I would say. Right. No, and we and we grow quite a lot of that and uh it goes into blends. Now as a straight varietal, yeah. Uh you would almost have to put it through malloactic uh fermentation to reduce the acidity of it.
+
+[15:41] And I think that's what people do when they generally make it as a straight varietal. But it's uh it's an amazing blend um in in there. And I uh there's probably some in this well, I know there's some ash meads in uh this cider. Had I had I known you want 'em, I would have brought them down to the city for you. Yeah, collar.
+
+[15:58] Ash meads are ash meads are fantastic. The first ash meads I ever tasted was actually from Geneva from the AG uh station. Um in uh New Hampshire, Poverty Lanes Orchards grows ash meads for commercial sale. They ship via Baldur, the distributor here in New York City. And they they'll work some I mean they're probably working overtime now because it's like you know, I'm I don't know how whether they'll take calls now, but they uh uh they they can they can provide it and uh Stas, you ever seen it at our green market?
+
+[16:27] No. I've never seen an Arc Green Market. And the problem with um, yeah, like for the recipes that I that uh so like for you you guys don't know, I have a book and in the book is a chapter on apples, specifically apples and cocktail, but they're not fermented apples, they're apples that we use kind of fresh. And I think there's nothing beats ash meads for like co cocktail work, like ash meads is like kind of like par excellence, like cocktail apple to work with, even though it is hard to source. Um I will say this.
+
+[16:53] Um if you're using it in cocktail work and you want to preserve that uh kind of like rich acid note of Ash Meads kernel, like uh process them right away. I mean, like uh you know, I've had people we've ordered the we've ordered the cases from uh Poverty Lanes, and uh they come in and some knucklehead will put the case down in you know in the in a hot basement next to a dishwasher, and then they're toasted inside of a day, they're they're they're just they're a shadow of their former self. They've lost their richness, they've lost their punch, you know, they've uh they start going to cure in a a good environment can really increase a lot of that richness and complexity of flavor quite a bit. You know. And then also on that note too, uh a variety that may work as a decent substitute that's sometimes easier to find is Golden Russet.
+
+[17:44] Um while different, it has a lot of similar kind of profiles. I I would throw out Cox Orange Pippin, which I don't know in the city, but it probably is slightly easier. But it's another you know, famous English apple high in acid and very aromatic. Uh but it may also be slightly difficult. You don't really see a lot of cocks here because uh as educated as you'd hope New York City market is, like we demand crunchy and like a good cocks is not is not crunchy.
+
+[18:09] It's more of a crumbly apple, and Americans uh I'm serious s sad to say can't appreciate the crumbly texture of like an old fashioned um And there's very few places in this country where you can really grow them well. I mean Finger Lakes is one exception. Yeah, yeah, they do well, although uh there's still issues. I mean it's it's probably the most difficult tree that we have to grow in the orchard. Uh yeah.
+
+[18:30] It's also I mean I don't know how sensitive all apples are to it, but I I was in the Brogdale, we Nastasi and I broke into a section where they were testing cocks on a bunch of different root stocks. Wildly different. Same piece of dirt, different root stocks on cocks. And I don't know like I said, uh yeah, so uh I you know, I don't know whether it is more sensitive than most to root stock in terms of flavor, but it was definitely it I know it was sensitive. It's the only one I've ever done a comparative tasting on.
+
+[18:59] Yeah, well, and it's it's a very low vigor tree. So that's that's part of the problem too. Uh you can't crop them early or the tree never gets beyond a certain height. Um yeah, they and they just have a lot of issues. They're just susceptible to everything and uh disease wise, insect and uh you know, and that's sort of why even in England they're ripping them out and replacing 'em with sort of more modern varieties.
+
+[19:20] Um just for that reason. Uh they they you know, it's not not economically viable even for them. Right in in the motherland. Do you do you do growing for for eating market as well? I do.
+
+[19:31] Yeah. So do you find it disheartening that you have to do like for instance, like it's impossible to get good early season apples because they're always harvested too early because they go soft almost instantly. And so that they're not it's not even a point buying like low dyes or transparents here because they're like there's not good. Yeah, those are I mean for me that's too early. I mean, our sort of earliest ones are uh like for eating or St.
+
+[19:52] Edmunds Russet, which is another uh it's a full russet, it's another English apple. And that one has like a pear drop sort of uh flavor. It's not very high in acids, but we also use it in a cider blend, and that's really for us uh right at the beginning of September. So I don't mess with any apples generally that are August ripening, because I do. They're they're very short season, very short-lived, and I think the flavor is eh on most of those.
+
+[20:15] Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, those also like the people had no offense to the people I buy them from occasionally, but like they harvest them when they're like baseballs, still like starchy, nasty. Uh wait, we have another caller still on the air? We do.
+
+[20:27] Yeah. Caller, you are you are on the air. Hey. Howdy. My aunt.
+
+[20:32] Yes, yes. Your question, sir. Is he still there? He did we lose him? Maybe he dropped his phone.
+
+[20:44] Uh he'll come back. Yeah, he'll be back. He'll be back. Whenever you get back, get back. Because in the meantime, we're gonna start opening some cider to uh to taste it.
+
+[20:51] What what what are we gonna taste here first, Jens? And by the way, Stas likes cider. The one thing in the world, maybe that she likes. She likes cider. Nice.
+
+[20:59] Well, I mean, if I can find something to actually open, do you have a bottle opener? Cider makers don't actually carry bottle openers. That's right. Oh, look at that. Jack.
+
+[21:10] Yes. So so since I came over on the subway and my bottle is sort of a little full, I'm a little worried that I've got to be able to get the floor. Nice, yeah, sure. Why would why don't you uh okay, why don't you describe the ciders that uh did these suckers on the air don't get to don't get to my doing this. So so uh ours is uh why is this not uh I'm having a little little technical difficulty with the uh I will I will let the beverage director actually use the restaurant man, yeah.
+
+[21:42] Exactly. That's why I shouldn't be involved. Uh so the black duck one is actually our hop cider. Um and this is uh main mainly sort of heirloom uh American heirloom fruit, which is uh different than most of our other ones. Uh we we generally use uh more true cider fruit, uh English and French uh bittersweets and bitter sharps.
+
+[22:01] But these are also our hops. So it's Fuggles, Ken Golding, Cascade, um, and a unknown noble hop. Um let me grab a glass. Oh, it's hopped. Unfortunately, Stas, she loves cider, not a hops person.
+
+[22:18] Oh, I'm so sorry. We need uh more jackets. Jackie's for you guys. Yeah, hops. Oh Jack loves hops.
+
+[22:24] Just just smell it. Maybe maybe you won't get hops, maybe it'll get the other plant in the hop family. Yes, now we're deep we're dealing with uh we're dealing with an un an unfiltered product here. An unfiltered, unfined, um yeah. I mean, this was uh ambient yeast, you know, natural yeast fermentation.
+
+[22:39] Uh and essentially uh with the hops, uh we pick them, uh we dry them, we freeze the hops because they're they're ready in August or early September. We ferment the grape uh yeah, grapes. Uh we ferment the apples when when they're completely done fermenting, uh at some point I make a blend of the ciders and I put the hops whole cone in the cider. The this was about five and a half days. Uh I pull it back out, and then uh actually this got bottle conditioned, uh, so it's at another few months in the bottle, and uh basically this is the product uh so stash, you might like it because it's dry hopped.
+
+[23:15] It's not it's not obviously my brain is on fry, it's not bitter hop, it's not bittered, it's not boiled with hops. Right. Right. Well that's the big difference that that when you put heat to hops, that's when you extract out most of the bitters. And um yeah, you know, essentially when you dry hop, you're getting more of the aromatics of the hops out.
+
+[23:31] Uh and any bitter that's in this is probably more from the apples and less to do with the hops themselves. So John, you probably said this, but my mind spaced for a second. Did you co-ferment the hops with the apples or was it all infused after the fact? No, no. So so it's uh uh completely fermented uh and then I put a blend together from from some different tanks and get get the base where I want it, and then I add the the hop whole cone after fermentation is complete.
+
+[23:56] Uh this this particular one is just by taste. Uh these were in for just about five and a half days. Uh I pull it back out and uh you know, then we bottle condition. So basically, you know, uh, you know, and this is what you get. This is the only product other than I do make a black currant one sometimes that that we sort of put something else in other than apples or pears.
+
+[24:18] Um I will say there the reason we made this is uh you know everyone needs a uh gateway, and this is our gateway cider for beer drinkers. Ah, nice. I like that. I like that. I just want to make sure the collar got on.
+
+[24:31] Are you on caller? Oh, yeah. Okay, hey, ask your question while we're while we're drinking this. By the way, you should know because you can't taste it, that uh there's very good uh I think there's very good acid control on this. Maybe it's because you're adding also some um, you know a little bit of uh tannin bitterness or the hop aroma maybe that's what balances out but very good I don't you think so yeah yeah I agree.
+
+[24:50] I mean but back to that note earlier you're talking about ash means maybe too acidic you have to blend it. Again it's all personal and I think I I'm a lover of higher acid beverages. When I was in the wine world it was champagne and Riesling and Gruner and Veltiner and that was my world and so the cider definitely leans that way. So I think there's a there's a broad range of what's acceptable but um I think this has a great balance especially for that bitter note too yeah you have to have some acidity to keep that to me it's all about energy in the beverage which acidity gives everything which is easier. Alright caller sorry sorry to cut you off yet again caller what is your question?
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+[25:23] My question is about keeving cider. What's the what's specifically the question? Oh specifically specifically the question is I've been you know doing my own keeping experiments over the years over the last couple years and I can't seem to get it down like to a science essentially obviously it is but I can't seem to get it to come out like evenly every single time and I know that there are a lot of places that do it on a regular basis you know like industrially I think so I figured someone's gotta know something about this you know that I'm missing. And I was wondering because I know it's involved similar you know hydrocolloid type stuff I was wondering if there's like a synergistic effect with another hydrocolloid you know because it's low methoxal pectin if there's anything we can do to like you know get it get it uh evened out I I will say where they do that in France uh uh well first to describe describe the process for people who have no idea what what's going with keeping is or what's going on. So keeving basically is a uh process where you sort of uh we get to uh uh uh what they call the brown cap, uh which uh is pectins and things like that come up and you have uh some of the nitrogen and and vitamins and things like that that are in the juice settle down, and you uh essentially take out the liquid in between.
+
+[26:40] So you're you're basically taking cider and starving it of the things that yeast need to ferment quickly and and uh maybe finish the fermentation. Uh so uh you know, then basically you get a very slow fermentation if it's done right, and you can actually get it to stop and have you know residual sugar in it uh and uh not have to use other processes sort of do it. It's a natural way to do it. But even in France and parts of England where they do it, uh it isn't a science and they don't make it happen all the time. And I will say varieties usually play a big role in it.
+
+[27:17] The bitter uh sweets uh generally make it easier to do, and uh also temperature is uh a huge factor. It has to be cold enough uh to make it happen. And but not too cold. But not too cold, true, true. And then there's just some amount of luck.
+
+[27:33] It truly is a little bit of luck. And uh I mean I know the biggest producer uh uh r in the US that I know that's doing uh keeping on a commercial level is uh uh Kevin from uh Easy Orchard, which is out in the the West Coast, and he it's a hit or miss thing for him. He sometimes get partial keys, sometimes he gets full keeves, and sometimes it just doesn't happen. And he has to ferment it sort of in a natural way. They do make I don't know what they are exactly, but they do make some additives which I would never involve myself with, you know, to like help the Keeve along.
+
+[28:04] Because I mean, what you're the beauty of the Kieve is the idea of blastoing the whole situation into kind of this great balance between failing and not failing, and it's also important, I think, to mention that you know you can have residual sugar in a cider from various methods. And one of the other keeping methods is this oxidative quality, which is also something you have to kind of monitor and keep in balance with both temperature and air exposure after the fact and so forth. Because you know, I don't personally don't do Kiev's because I enjoy some key ciders a hell of a lot. Like that's not my goal to make any kind of oxidative style of cider. Yeah.
+
+[28:39] But I think most people, especially on the still side, produce a fairly highly oxidized product now. It does happen. There's many reasons we can discuss why that's the case. But can and should. Um but yeah, the Kiev, I don't I can't speak to like how to help you be successful.
+
+[28:55] What about the salads content of the juice before it's fermented? Is that does have something to do with it too? Because you mean depending on if you're if you are straining it in some way when you're juicing it or not at all, and what's your press and like what was the texture of the apples, and did they squirt through the press and creep put more sediment in your juice than necessary for that Keefe? Because the weight of those things, as I understand it, can cause like a difficulty in the true separation of pectin to the top and other sediment to the bottom of a Kieve. Yeah, and I I also don't make any Keefe ciders, although in the past uh when I was experimenting, I did make you know small five and ten gallon lots of Keeve cider, and right, I added nothing.
+
+[29:31] Um and I would get I'm I'm this is a rough estimate, probably half of them to work and the other half didn't. Um and you know, I was using true bitter sweets and things like that, um, which i I'm at least told helps. Um if you're using straight up dessert fruit, it's uh yeah, that it's a l sometimes harder to make it work. Um as I've understand too, like you mentioned bitter sweets and so forth often work a little better because they do tend some of them at least tend to have a lower nutrient level to begin with. And they also have a higher pH.
+
+[29:59] So that's another thing to be considered. Like that's why a lot of Keeve ciders that are successful aren't necessarily that high in acidity or they don't have that sense of acidity in the palate, because they generally start with a higher pH to begin with, which also create uh in a whole new danger zone in that situation because you have an oxidized juice that you're leaving a little bit open to the elements, has a high pH, so it's a little bit more likely to be inviting to certain bacteria that you may not want later on. So that's it's a tricky but it's also one of these beautiful things that was discovered by accident by people just putting juice outside because they needed a place to store it and it happened to be cold, and the chapeau brune developed and they had to salvage what was there and figured this whole method out over a number of years. So delicious mistakes. Yeah.
+
+[30:46] Yes. Yeah. Collar, did that did that help at all? Um yeah, it does. I was just I was actually hoping more for like a food science perspective.
+
+[30:55] I appreciate you know the natural, you know, amazingness of the apples, but like I would be probably adding like pectin methylesterase or something like a novo shape or something like that. And I was thinking from you know a hydrocolide perspective, I know there are a lot of synergistic hydrocolloid interactions. I was wondering if there's something I could just like, you know, if I can you know get it too. Have you done a successful Kiev without that yet? Um yeah, I have.
+
+[31:22] It's just it does seem to be without the pectomethyl esterase you're saying? Or would have just yeah, with just basic. Oh no. Okay. No.
+
+[31:29] Yeah, I mean, not without the pectomethyl esterase. I mean, the but okay, so like here's here's here's an example that I I don't know what's gonna happen, so I'll let I'll let you know. And unfortunately for me, there's too many variables to just to actually separate the stuff out, but uh I I can't afford a cider press yet. So I I only have one tree. I'm gonna plant more.
+
+[31:47] By the way, what do you what do you guys think about fall planting? You pro fall planting or anti? No, no, I think it can work as long as you uh mulch it and you know get it watered in and we don't have severe, severe winters. I'll talk to you I'll talk to you after the show because I want to plant some apple trees, but I don't, you know, I don't I whatever. I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[32:05] But the uh I mean I will if you want, but the um so I juice with with like uh regular you know human like home juicers. So my first cider that I did this year, I did in a champion juicer, which provides a fairly low solids juice. I did not treat it at all with any sort of um with any sort of pectinase because it was already low enough, and when you when you treat a juice early with um pectinase, you strip a lot of flavor out of the juice, and so that's why a lot of times for cocktails where I need a clear juice for carbonation, like uh I have to use extremely high flavored varieties like an ash meads, because if you're hitting it with a pectinase enzyme and then stripping the solids out that early, like you know, it's just it they get too thin. Like a lot of apples can't survive it from a flavor standpoint. Okay.
+
+[32:53] I this time I juiced because Mark from Del Posto gave Nastasia an extra juicer. Nastasia's like, this is the size of my freaking kitchen. What the hell am I gonna do with this, Dave? You want this juicer? So I got this brevel juicer, which is a centrifugal basket juicer, radically higher solids content in this juice.
+
+[33:11] So I have no idea so much so, and this is why the variables are too much, that I hit it with a little bit of pectanex because it was just so it was like a slurry, like you know, much more higher solids than you would get in a press. And so I unf unfortunately for you, caller, I treated it with uh with uh some uh pectinase, but uh you know I'm keeping it fairly cool, so I don't know like how much of a breakdown whether it's gonna be complete. I mean only time will tell as journey wasn't that journey? Journey, I think, right? No.
+
+[33:38] Only time will tell. No. That's corner, some hair some hairband. It was one of them. Yeah, yeah, anyway.
+
+[33:45] Anyway, uh now I have the lyrics of the song up oh god's too bad. Yeah. So the uh uh point being that uh you know, maybe if you were to take some juice and hit it with if you didn't want to use a science perspective, but you were able to do it successfully with pectin methylesterase. You still there even? What?
+
+[34:02] You you were able to successfully do to do it by you pre-treated the apples, or you treated that you crushed it, then treated the crush with pectin methylesterase, and then and then pressed it. Yeah. So you're only treating when you're if when you're just treating the crush with pre pectin methylesterase, especially if your transit time is not too high, you're only really uh affecting like a percentage of the of the juice before but of the product. And so you could probably you know if you mean if if you like that method, continue to use that method. The only problem being that pectin pectin methylesterase, nova shape is increasingly difficult to source.
+
+[34:36] So like modernist pantry is not selling it anymore. Uh good Guzman from NovoZimes will only sell it in 25 liter pails, which is like you know, five orchards worth of freaking uh enzyme. Uh and so you might want to uh you might want to try just uh adding some slurry to it, like some extra or like using a different juicing technique for some of it just to boost your solids content on it, because I don't think that the pectin methylesterase is doing much besides that. As you mentioned, is also it does strip a little bit of flavor, right? So when you're doing that, you're gonna you're losing a little bit of solids instead of having them infused at a slower rate.
+
+[35:12] So it's it's expediting the whole keeping process to a certain extent, which I think you kind of run the risk of maybe losing a little bit of your final flavor product. Yeah, aromatics. Right. There is no there is no effect one thing, don't affect the rest in any sort of cooking, really. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:32] Like everything that you do, for instance, on this second batch. I I met you know, I've I've I cured the apples for a couple weeks to and also I froze a portion of them because I needed to, because they were they I damaged them when I was harvesting them because I don't want to get up. My tree is a standard apple tree. It's the tallest freaking apple tree I've ever had. So I literally had to beat the fruit off of the top of the tree.
+
+[35:53] I don't have a ladder that can get up to the top of this dang tree. And so a lot of the stuff was uh uh damaged. I couldn't juice it right away, so I froze it, and then when it thaws, it thaws like a like a like a brown bag, which is kind of cool. It kind of tastes good actually. But um anyway, it's too many variables for me to actually describe to the caller like what's going on because it's now it's partially frozen, the juicer was like making this slurry.
+
+[36:14] Who the hell knows? You know, you can have good results of that sometimes too. If you're if you're juicing frozen fruit, a lot of those ice crystals from the water will stay frozen while the juice and the nectar releases and you can end up with a higher concentration of flavor and sugar in the end. I've done a bunch of s years ago. I did a bunch of side by sides on purposely freezing apples to simulate like like post-thaw like po post initial freeze harvest of like certain varieties, like um you know, certain late season varieties.
+
+[36:42] And I had some good luck actually developing some interesting flavors with apples that are that were just simply like artificially frozen and then allowed to thaw before they were before they were juiced. Yeah. Well, I think I'm gonna add I think I'm gonna try adding some like low methoxal pectin, hopefully maybe to help you know get things going. Yeah. Amp up my my pectin amounts.
+
+[37:07] Maybe that'll help, you know, stabilize some of the ones that aren't quite you know coming together. Hmm. Right. Well let us know. Let us know what happens like in however many weeks or whatever it takes.
+
+[37:18] Let us know let us know what happens. I'm always curious about these things. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Good luck.
+
+[37:24] Um by the way, speaking of apple trees, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do with this dang tree. All the lower branches are basically it's weird. They produce fruit this year was an unbelievable I think for a lot of people like fruit year in in our area like the the the tree just went bananas. I don't know whether it's because we had a hard winter or what, but the tree just went totally ape, like made so many freaking apples. No, this was the perfect year.
+
+[37:49] I mean last year in New York State was a short crop year for a lot of a lot of regions. So uh you know when the apple trees have all that kind of energy and and the pollination season this year was perfect. I mean we had no rain and warm days uh uh when when the blossoms were out and and you know honeybees are lazy and uh pre Madonna's and they won't work you know if it's below fifty five if it's raining and things like that and and some of the other pollinators uh so I think it was just uh you know a confluence of all these things you know light crop last year uh for most people so you know you're you're pretty much guaranteed a big crop and just the pollination uh was just perfect the weather. So, I mean, for us, we had the biggest crop we've ever had. Nice.
+
+[38:33] Yeah. Speak Lafe, before we get done on we gotta taste your cider. We've got a taste of cider. Let's taste it. Yeah let's rinse these glasses since that those hops are so the hot years.
+
+[38:42] Wait, this one's a cle this one's a clean guy. Okay. Oh, because I host host steals the clean glass. By the way, Nastasia, are we doing are we doing the show from Bass Pro next week? We are.
+
+[38:56] They just got back to me. Woo! Bass Pro people is opening up in Bridgeport, and we're gonna do the show, but it's not gonna be Tuesday. It's gonna be Wednesday, right? It's gonna be Wednesday.
+
+[39:05] Oh, it's gonna be so awesome. Also, while we're we won't be able to take call-ins, so it'll be like a catch-up show, you know. Yeah, by the way, once uh uh the all questions on hunting or cooking foods that you hunt. I'll get to the questions I had today. I had some really interesting questions today that I'm clearly not going to get to, like how to blanch, i.e.
+
+[39:21] remove bitterness and chlorophyll, like you know, of cartoons post-harvest, which is interesting to me, and I have some thoughts on it, but I don't have time necessarily to get into it today. Let's taste the cider. So describe the cider that we're that we're looking at here. So this is all this is all Columbia County fruit up in Hudson Valley. Um this is all from 2014 harvest, just two varieties 60% Northern Spy, 40% Newtown Pippin, both native uh North American heirlooms.
+
+[39:45] Um Northern. Yeah, you said Northern? Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, North American heirlooms. But like like don't let the Virginians tell you that like we we own Newtown comes from Queens.
+
+[39:56] Yeah, right. But by the way, you do you know that that's the most polluted area in all like was for a while. Newtown Creek was like the most polluted waterway in the country. It's all the the actual land where the tree, the first Newtown Pippin is documented from, is now a children's park. So that's a good combination there.
+
+[40:13] A really polluted area and children's playground. Yeah. Um but this is um this was fermented very slowly. There's this is a combination actually of inoculate and uh spontaneous fermentation. Um this year everything so far is kicking off a spontaneous just fine, but I've been kind of a migratory gypsy of a cider maker for a while.
+
+[40:31] So you know, a lot of people talk about all the yeasts come in on the fruit, and there's a whole other element of the environment that you're producing in could be a contributing factor to those kinds of fermentations. So until there was a little bit more of a settled homestead for the cideries, so to speak. Um I was kind of using a mix of the two. Um this aged and vat um fermented for about six six or seven weeks total. And then age and vat for another five and a half months.
+
+[40:58] It's method champagnoise or bottle conditioned and bit and bottled now for about five and a half, six months. Now uh I see what you mean by you like acid, but here's the thing like there's a uh a very characteristic brightness in the finish from that, but it's not like overly acidic. It's not like it's not like an acid bomb. No. You know, it balances is always should be the goal, I think.
+
+[41:20] Not just in making cider, but in all aspects of life. Yeah. But let me let me ask you guys this, but before they you know, before we run out of time. So I find that like uh how many years would you guys say we're into the cider kind of resurgence here in in the US? Five, six, seven?
+
+[41:36] Probably yeah, I don't even know if it's that really. I mean, are we at re year zero yet? That's really the question. I think I mean, but it's it's been a few, yeah. I mean maybe five.
+
+[41:45] Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I'm when I say that, I mean there is uh, you know, I remember a time when you know all you would read in books is we lost it. We were a cider country and we lost it. And there was nothing. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:58] There was a couple of people producing some some stuff, but they were really chasing like a slightly higher price point. They were chasing the same folks that were buying woodchuck. And I think it's a bit no offense to the woodshuck corporation. Yeah. But they've done great things for us.
+
+[42:11] Yeah. But I've noticed like, you know, maybe eight years, like as you start seeing people who would go out and do the rounds like you guys are doing, talking to people, like talking about their products, uh, and trying to take serious drinkers and hook serious when I mean I don't mean alcoholic, I mean like people who take their drinks seriously, like hook them in into into cider. So that I I've only sensed maybe a little over half a decade or something like this. Um maybe year zero, ironically, was when Anheuser Busch and Instellar Toise and all them started bottling a cider because it was clearly money to be made, which is kind of laughable from people like John and I think. But what which product do they do?
+
+[42:54] Well, the what was the uh the Johnny Apple seed? Johnny Apple seed, yeah. You know, these are six pack 12 ounce bottle ciders marketed in that kind of you know generally with some amount of concentrate and other sort of flavorings and things like that. I mean, it's weird they dop them with malik, which is so strange, because why would you need to? Well, if you had very, very high pH weak apples, you might have to like so my question is this I th I feel that like early on in this kind of scenario or the uh early on in this kind of uh uh greater appreciation understanding of what by the way is like our birthright good cider, you know, especially here in this part of the c country, right?
+
+[43:35] Uh it we we weren't born with it, but it it belongs to us, right? And we should have it. It's like super important. Um to me anyway. But that I feel that like early on, uh like a lot of people who are trying to do a good job were producing kind of you know, lay to put unbalanced ciders.
+
+[43:55] Like like too much, not balanced out, but I feel like we're getting so much better. I feel like every year we're getting better and better. Well, that's an interesting kind of thing because people talk about this is an interesting point to me. Like when I when I told some friends of mine from the wine industry that I was going to start making cider, they say, Oh, what are you gonna do? You're gonna make like Spanish style cider or like more like Normandy style cider.
+
+[44:13] And I know that if I said to them, I'm gonna move to the finger lakes to start making wine, they wouldn't ask me, Oh, what are you gonna make like French style wine? Are you gonna, you know, but there was this understanding, even people understood that terroir that they were attaching the idea of cider to these very specific locales is how they aesthetically identified their cider. And I think there's an interesting element going on, especially in New York State. Maybe I know it better because I'm intimately involved with this state because I'm here, but of trying to not necessarily pinpoint an identity of what North American cider or New York State cider is, but having the opportunity to explore these kinds of elements of balance. Because traditionally speaking, you know, a lot of the Normandy and Brittany ciders are off dry, most of them Kiev, not all, but you know, definitely that, and use varieties that are a little bit lower in acidity.
+
+[44:56] Then the English style of cider, traditionally speaking, is definitely more on the bitter, sweeter, lower acid style of things. In fact, there's even some writing in the the British reviewers of quality cider that require a low level of acidity to be a to be a good cider. So, you know, I think finding the balance, yeah yeah, it's a maybe it's a cultural difference. Maybe it's because we're in a world where we're used to wines that have high acidity or getting into worlds of cocktails that have a greater balance of acidities and bitter notes and those kinds of things. So I think it's awesome that we're in a realm where we can explore it a little bit more freely than being beholden to like a longer, deeper history of certain traditions.
+
+[45:33] Right. You know what's interesting on what you're saying with uh yeah I got it. We gotta do it. All right, well, listen, okay, 30 seconds 30 seconds, 30 seconds. So, like uh I think it's interesting.
+
+[45:40] Oh, well, it takes more than 30 seconds. Like early on in this, you get a lot of things I thought were well crafted products out of places like Virginia where it's low acid inherently because of the hotter kind of climate they have, so it's easier for them to translate what in their head is a cider into a product in a bottle. I mean, we need to talk more about this, but they're about to rip us off the air. Well, but listen, let's take this time. Let's let's just like gentlemen, uh punch your products again, say where we can get them, say the names of your of your places, and then unfortunately we'll have to continue this like in the Twitter trap chat room or online.
+
+[46:09] But thanks so much for coming. And why just give give the give the give the pitch? Well, no, no, and thanks thanks for having us. Uh Black Duck Cider, uh, you know, basically we're pear and uh cider, and we do lean more to a Spanish style. Um I believe uh the late great uh James Brown did approve our ciders for their funk and um you can pretty much get them uh at some select places in uh uh Manhattan and Brooklyn.
+
+[46:34] Uh Wasale, of course, the Great Wasale in Orchard Street in the Lower East Side has it. And I just want to uh give a shout out to all the cider drinkers on uh uh Staten Island because uh no one ever gives them props. All two of them out there. Nice. I love you guys.
+
+[46:48] That's half the population. So you got your good saturation. Leaf, what do you what do you got? So Suns from Cider. Uh tonight at what's sale is the first launch party release of a cider that we're tasting right now.
+
+[46:57] So come on out after 8 p.m. if you want to buy by the glass and enjoy it there. The cider is pretty limited right now. It'll be available at Wasale and then at the new Rouge tomat when it opens, it'll be by the glass there. And Wassail, by the way, is a cider, a cider focused uh bar in uh lower Manhattan in uh in on Orchard Orchard, right?
+
+[47:16] Orchard Street, it's a Mecca. Yeah. I mean it's they do a good job. They're the first place, and still, I think the only place in New York City focused solely on cider. I could be wrong, but can I give them props real quick for their chef, the food?
+
+[47:26] Oh, yeah. Don't overlook it. It's phenomenal. I've been there several times. I endorse.
+
+[47:30] And the and the pastries, uh, Rebecca. Amazing. All right, listen. That's been cooking issues. Thanks so much.
+
+[47:29] Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[47:57] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a for-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families. For more information, visit CultureCity.org. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Royal Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Every Tuesday from around now. Actually, we're on time today, kinda, huh? Yeah.
+
+[0:46] I was actually here at noon. What the hell's that all about? I don't know. Uh 1205 over here. Uh nah, I was saying, uh, nah.
+
+[0:53] Nah, I don't know. Let me see what my phone says. Okay, 1205. Close. Close.
+
+[0:58] Close. Uh joined as usual uh in the studio by Anastasia the Hammer Lopez and Jack Jackie Molecules Insley in the engineering booth. How are you guys doing? Good. Good.
+
+[1:09] Hey Jack, someone got really angry at our microphone here. Oh, I see what's going on. It's like it's like someone like all bent it all the pretzeled it up. Oh, really? Yeah.
+
+[1:17] I I think I fixed it. They just knocked off the vibration support. Someone's voice was so intense that it knocked the microphone off of its vibration support. So, Stas, what do we have going on tomorrow? Tomorrow we're gonna be at the Bass Pro in Bridgeport, Connecticut.
+
+[1:32] Is it the is it the Bass Amateur? No. It's the Pro. It's the professional style bass. Yeah, what do we look like over here?
+
+[1:40] They just released the people that are gonna be there. Oh, who's gonna be there? Uh the Bassmaster Angler of the Year. Ooh. Ooh.
+
+[1:51] I'm assuming this is like a freshwater bass, right? Uh I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:55] Next, yeah. Some guy from Wicked Tuna. His name is Captain Bill Hollywood Muniz. Oh, I like that. I like that.
+
+[2:02] Which Hollywood? I don't, probably Florida. All right. What do you got there? And then there's Johnny Damon, who is a World Series baseball player from the Boston Red Sox and the Yankees.
+
+[2:14] Wait, well, okay. Nice. Nice. Nice, yeah. And then uh private military contractor Brant McGee, who's seen on the History Channel show alone.
+
+[2:23] Wait a minute. So like what does he like what does that mean? Is he he's gonna break our necks? I don't know. And then there's America's Favorite Fisherman host of Johnny Houston Outdoors, Jimmy Houston.
+
+[2:35] And wait. Sorry, Jimmy Houston Outdoors, Jimmy Houston. Yeah, it would be hilarious if a guy named Jimmy Houston was the host of a show called Johnny Houston Outdoors. Yeah. That'd be kind of like that's how things work nowadays, though.
+
+[2:47] Alright. So hopefully they'll come on our show. Yeah, and when are we if people can come by live if they're in the area? From six o'clock on at the Bass Pro Shops. We'll be out in the parking lot.
+
+[2:57] For real? For real's. Well, there's gonna be a lot of stuff going on in the parking lot. Okay. So the uh from the parking lot.
+
+[3:05] Yeah, we're gonna be closest to the thing, they said, because of our power needs. Jackie Molecule's gonna come. Yep. Oh yeah. We're gonna actually set up with mics and and everything.
+
+[3:15] By the way, we are in no way affiliated with uh Bass Pro. Like they're not giving us anything or anything. Not yet. We'll see how it goes, right? Yeah.
+
+[3:23] Yeah. I mean, again, not the amateurs, the pros. That'll be in Bridgeport, Connecticut. And coincidentally, on the way up, I need to pick up a part from my chainsaw. So this week.
+
+[3:34] It's in it's in Bridgeport. Or nobody from where? I forget the name of it. I forget the name of the I forget the name of the place. No, they don't sell like real chainsaw parts at Home Depot.
+
+[3:43] No offense, Home Depot. But like, you know, like uh I was making these benches. I was ripping through a bunch of uh logs, like hard, like oak, so they're pretty hard. And uh I didn't buy a rip, okay. I don't want to hear it.
+
+[3:54] I didn't buy a ripping chain. I was using my normal my normal chain on it, right? Pretty sharp chain. And uh the bar the bar nut like rattled a little bit loose and so it shattered my tensioner. So I gotta go get a tensioner for it.
+
+[4:08] Yeah. So I was like, wow, I don't care. Do you care about this? Uh while uh at like while this was going on, I'd already bucked, you know what bucking is between you saw logs into smaller pieces so that you can use them for firewood and whatnot. So I'd already uh bucked uh this tree and I was loading it into my cart and my tractor died in the middle of the woods.
+
+[4:27] In the middle of the freaking woods. Like good. In the middle of the freaking woods. Aren't you gonna have a bunch of people try to lift it out? You can't lift this freaking tractor.
+
+[4:37] First of all, like I have to go up like a wicked hill, like with covered in leaves. You know what, people? If you can afford a tractor that works, just get a tractor that works. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[4:46] Mm-hmm. I just can't afford a tractor that works right now. Do I want a tractor that works? You know what I really want? I want like uh some sort of like either like you know what a John Deere Gator is?
+
+[4:56] I think you've shown me before. They're like they're like, imagine like uh golf cart on roids with like a rollover. Uh cool, awesome. I can move wood in that. I don't know.
+
+[5:05] I got a caller, by the way. Caller, you are on the air. Hey, what's up, guys? Uh this is Ed from Washington, D.C. How you doing?
+
+[5:13] Doing good. How are you guys doing? All right. Uh speaking of tractors that work, uh, my dad has has had a Kubota for like 15 years and has never had a problem with it. Which kind?
+
+[5:24] Do you know? Uh I do not know which kind, but it's just uh it's just a beast of a workhorse, and nothing's ever wrong with it. With a front end loader on it? Yeah. Does it have the backhoe too?
+
+[5:36] Yeah, it has back hoe, and he can load a he can attach a drivetrain to the rear and put a wood chipper on the back and everything. Oh man, I'm so jealous. That's what I need. But they're like 20 something grand. And they mean you know, and they maintain their resale value like so well.
+
+[5:51] You know what I mean? Like uh Staz and I were once looking on Craigslist. It was his retirement gift to himself. Oh, well that's nice. But I like how someone gives themselves a retirement gift that allows them to work harder.
+
+[6:03] But the uh which I appreciate. Uh, but Stas and I were looking at these guys. If you go on Craigslist, there's like uh fake people trying to sell kubodas at unreasonably low prices. So like Ms. Nastasi and I, for a while, like one of our minor amusements when we weren't working was to mess with the scammers about like, you know, are you familiar with these scams?
+
+[6:23] So what they do is they say they they they're they always say that they're in the military and that they just got re reposted somewhere and they won't be able to take their Kubota with them, right? And it's and you're like, and so but they post it as though it's in your like local Craigslist, but then they're like, oh, but it's it's it's in uh Ohio. And they're like, uh, you know, it's already packed and everything. It's like, and so like Stasner always like, well, that's such a coincidence. I happen to be going through Ohio like tomorrow, can I come see it?
+
+[6:53] And they never write back. They never write back. Or like people ask us for the, you know, like, well, let's go on and on, but like we'll give them total like straight up like, wow, that's so amazing. I'll be in Alaska. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:04] I'll go, I'll be in Fairbanks like tomorrow. Can I come look at the tractor? You know what I mean? I love doing that kind of stuff. Anyway, so what's your cooking related question?
+
+[7:13] Anyways, so um I I have uh own an ice cream company here in DC called Milk Cult. We're trying to mess around with some different kind of topping stuff. And I want to do a few kind of um sweet powdered vegetable toppings. Uh and trying to do like a sweet Thai basil and a sweet carrot. And I was wondering if there's a way I can kind of uh produce a lot of this stuff without a dehydrator by I don't know, like um pulverizing it and then mixing it with um for the Thai basil, like chlorophyll and maybe like a bulking agent or something like that, and what kind of suggestions you might have.
+
+[7:49] Okay. Uh are you milk cult the Twitter as well? Yeah. Oh, nice. Hi.
+
+[7:54] Um the uh huh. So you wait, you don't want to invest in a dehydrator. What what what equipment do you have? I mean, I mean I have pretty much everything else. I mean, yeah.
+
+[8:07] Right. I don't have a rotor app or anything like that, but uh I mean I got pretty much everything else. Right. So tie basil, I haven't had a lot of experience trying to to dry it down because I always always use it like uh super fresh, and I don't think you're gonna have you're not gonna I know you're not gonna have any luck uh like uh wet milling it and then drying it because it's just gonna and you know you want them as unblemished as possible as they're drying out so that they uh so basically you're looking to get all the water out before the polyphenol oxidase enzymes can turn them into a swampy morass of crap, right? That's the goal.
+
+[8:39] Right. Um but you know you might be able to do the old school just crack the crack the oven and keep keep it on low, keep the oven open, keep it on low just to get because really it's only that initial section of dryness that you need to get past, and then once you're over the hump in terms of dryness, then they can they'll dry out rather effectively without rotting on you. Um but let me see if there's anything like I have never I I I hate to admit this because I I should try it. But you know, like uh the there's the old I think it was Thomas Keller who first started talking about it, even though it doesn't seem like it's his kind of a technique. And it could just be that I'm losing it in my, you know, in my as I get older.
+
+[9:18] But I think he has a micro I know there is a microwave dehydration of herbs technique. I don't I've never tried it, so I don't know how it works. But for things like herbs, you might be able to try uh, you know, the the nuclear uh dehydration there. Um but I would just throw some in an oven. I mean, uh do you have a if you can turn the convection off even better so that it's not even though the convection helps with drying, like I find that things like herbs tend to blow around a lot if you don't have it specifically set up.
+
+[9:44] I mean, that's the really nice thing about a dehydrator. Um the other thing I would do is like call up a buddy with a dehydrator and just like throw a couple sheets in as a test to see whether you like the result before you go too ape crazy trying to figure out whether you know whether you like it or not. There I don't think there's a commercial source of uh of uh dried Thai basil. I can't think I've never seen it, right? Um but the other thing to do would be to, you know, I mean the real baller thing would be to contract someone out to freeze dry that stuff.
+
+[10:14] That would be amazing. But uh I would try somebody's uh yeah, that'd be amazing. I mean, um, but again, that's like even more difficult. So what are the other things you want to try besides Thai basic? Uh carrot, carrot and beet.
+
+[10:28] Carrots, go buy them freeze dried. Just buy them freeze dried and pulverize them, right? You know, I don't know how much, like, yeah, you could buy them, buy them freeze dried. Because you're not gonna use that much, right? No, no.
+
+[10:40] I don't know if we're gonna go into like maybe like quartz, a couple quarts a week or something like that. So not like huge amounts. Right. Um, beets, I've never seen, I don't think, freeze-dried beets. Wait.
+
+[10:55] Is it that company that does just XYZ, do they do it just beets? I have no idea. They have just corn, they have just peas, they have just raspberries and just strawberries. I don't know if they I don't think I don't think they do beets. I'm wondering whether you could just as a test, like just pulverize commercial beet chips and see whether or not they're any good.
+
+[11:14] You know, you because you can buy as long as they're unsalted, yeah, they might work. Yeah, give that a shot. I mean, like, it as long as you don't own the equipment, you're gonna have to just kind of like hassle around and kind of figure out what's going on with it. But with otherwise, with beets, um who has worked on that? I mean, people used to make beet soil and beet beet kind of powders all the time.
+
+[11:36] I know Wiley used to do it at WD, and a bunch of people have done it, but I think that they're using um, I think they're dehydrating it. Now, as far as binders go, like it all depends on how you want the texture of the product, you know, to be. I mean, you can make it kind of, you know, any texture from a dry powder, and then actually the texture you want is gonna depend a lot on uh kind of how much you need to treat it beforehand to get the moisture out, but it could go anywhere from a dry powder to like a strusel topping. And strusel toppings are pretty, you know, they're fairly uh moist, and you know, and they just have like you know, uh like butter and then other like I would use pre-cooked starchy starches in them so that's not have that extreme starch taste to it. But um things like things like that.
+
+[12:20] You know, but I would just I would just test out different things. I I'm having uh in my mind trying to figure out what kind of topping you want, whether you want it to be a dust or like a hearty crumbly thing or what. I think I think some of them will work as a dust and some of them will work as a crumbly soil or a strusel and we'll just have to play around with what works which way. Yeah. I haven't done a lot of the soil work.
+
+[12:43] I mean I used to do a lot of the powdered oil works but that's not what you're that's not what you're what you're doing there. But most most of those soils I think were like or like make a dough make a dough right here's something you could do. You could make a dough of the flavor you want this wouldn't work with Thai basil but you can make a really stiff for instance beet like like and like almost like a twelve but like not necessarily sugary and then just like crack the or you could make it sugary and then just pulse it like a praline and get you know get the thing out like a beet twelve would work and that would probably be delicious and within the realm of normal kind of kitchen practice without having to do anything crazy you know what I mean? Yeah nothing crazy no new equipment or anything. Yeah yeah yeah old school just like make a twelve and pulverize it.
+
+[13:26] Great. Well thanks guys. Alright well let us know. Tweet us on over and tell us what happens. Okay.
+
+[13:31] I go I haven't been to DC in a while. You no I was just in DC. Did you enjoy it? I did. You know the lines for all of the attractions are longer than they were when I was a kid.
+
+[13:39] Have we talked about this on the air? Uh no I think it's lines I hate lines. Well but the thing is I think the lines weren't as long when I was a kid. Let me put it this way I am just as impatient or I'm the same impatient now as when I was a kid I'm pretty sure right which is to say impatient. But the um I think that like there's only like uh they're not making more constitutions but we keep on making more Americans.
+
+[14:01] I think that's the thing. You know what I mean? There's just more Americans now than there used to be, and they all want to see the same piece of paper. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:10] Whatever. Hey, I got something in from Erin, actually. Um, Aaron, Aaron Fairbanks, executive director. Uh she wants to know if Frilo technology is a real thing and if you know anything about it. Frilo?
+
+[14:23] Yeah. Well, explain to me what it is, and I'll tell you whether I think it sounds real. Guaranteed oil cost reduction. It's like uh they say it's a revolutionary technology that uh the in which the oxidation process is reduced and therefore dramatically increases the lifespan of cooking oils. What is it?
+
+[14:39] I'll have to show you the I'll have to show you. I've never used it, but I mean I know there's lots of different technologies out there to keep your fry oil in in good feather. Um you know, and you know, the the ultimate dream is obviously that your that the food uptake of oil is the exact same as the uh oil input rate to maintain optimum frying technology. That's why that's like the continuous potato the continuous potato chip model is like um I mean I know everyone likes kettle cooked potatoes, but I mean in terms of like oil or continuous French fry uh production lines, that's like the that's the the right it's like the oil always is perfect, and you just keep on making fries until the earth extinguishes itself. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:24] It's kind of like the sun, how the sun will just keep on like you know, doing fusion. Yeah, keep on keeping on. Same as this. You just keep on as long as you keep feeding this like French fry sun with like fries, uh like fry and oil, it will just be always perfect. Isn't that awesome?
+
+[15:40] Yeah, it's awesome. Anyway, uh so I don't know about this Fry Lo technology. I'll show you over the brig. It's it's weird. I mean, is it any is it any kin to J-Lo?
+
+[15:48] Does she own it? No. No. No. It's manufactured in Japan.
+
+[15:53] I can see that. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. What do they know about JLO?
+
+[15:58] Who knows? Who knows? Who knows what they know about J Lo. Stas, you uh you a J-Lo hater? No.
+
+[15:59] Really? I mean, I don't feel like there feel nothing. You feel nothing. All right. Okay, let's get to some questions.
+
+[16:11] Uh Joel Esposito writes in Is it practical? Uh like that practicable. Is it practical to pipe a house with CO2 lines? That's carbon dioxide. Uh like ball locks on retractable hoses.
+
+[16:22] What do you think about the word ball lock? Yeah. Nah? Nah. Nah.
+
+[16:25] Ball lock. Do you prefer uh ball lock? Another word like a it sounds better than saying a universal universal beverage or a Pepsi locking system. I mean ball lock. Pepsi locking system.
+
+[16:37] Yeah. All right. As opposed to the pinlocks, which is what Coke used to use. Pinlock. Nobody uses the pin locks anymore.
+
+[16:43] Whatever, pinlocks. Like ball locks on retractable hoses from the ceiling or just a dedicated station piped out of a countertop with a pressure regulator at the point of use. Also, what's involved in getting a tank of nitrous oxide, N2O, for culinary use in a residential setting? Joel Esposito. Okay, look at here.
+
+[17:02] Uh here's the problem. Uh let's go backwards. Here's the problem with nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide is um uh uh um psychoactive, right? So people abuse nitrous oxide uh in the form of whippets, right?
+
+[17:17] And the uh the issue um with it especially is is that people will uh inhale it directly from the tank, and if you inhale it directly from the tank, you can pass out with the mask on your face and asphyxiate yourself and die, right? So, you know, if you piped enough oxygen into it, you probably wouldn't die, but nobody hooks up a system of oxygen and N2O, and even that would be dangerous because what if the oxygen failed and you're by yourself and you're huffing nitrous. So it's classically dangerous thing to have lying around the house if there's anyone in the house who has a predisposition to like uh huffing the stuff right so I'm just gonna go ahead and say that right there. Another problem nitrous is typically used um in consumer applications for uh injection into uh automobile engines to like provide extra power like nitro boost those have some sort of like poisonous stinkofin added to it so that you can't uh huff it now you can get medical grade nitrous like I I used to have it I gave the nitrous cylinder back but I used to have it uh I think we gave it back right the big tank we gave it back when we close the lab yeah uh I used to have it uh around uh the trick is is just convincing somebody once that that you are a reputable person and that you needed it so I convinced the guy to give it to me once because I worked at the French culinary institute and I said to him uh you know I called a couple different places and they're like well you need a you need a uh a doctor's license I'm like I don't because I'm not gonna prescribe it. I think I've gone through this on the air and they're like you know and uh you know but after about like 20 minutes of them of me just saying no I don't need it right then they I said what I said I said okay it's it's I said it's not a legal requirement for me to be a doctor to get to nitrous.
+
+[19:08] I said so what is it that would make it okay for you f you to feel good giving me the nitrous and then you you tell them a story which was is true be like look at I spend thousands of dollars a year on uh nitrous oxide cartridges for whipped cream makers and I'd prefer to spend you know a hundred bucks on one nitrous oxide tank that'll last me two years than a thousand dollars on cartridges and so the guy said so a bunch of people said well I will never feel comfortable selling it to you so go hang yourself I was like okay but then this one guy said um get the New York City fire department to say it's okay I said I I didn't say that's crazy I said okay so I called at the fire department and I said hey fire department do you have any regulations about nitrous oxide and they said no we have no regulations about nitrous oxide I was like so you have no problem with me having a nitrous oxide tank based on fire department rules in uh in my place and keep in mind like I had a certificate of fitness for compressed gases both for oxygen and acetylene and industrial environments uh actually that's the only certificate of fitness I had at the time but like you know I was like you know I've been to your center I have you know blah blah blah and and I said to the guy here's the magic phrase I was like well will you sign a letter saying that the fire department has no uh uh problem with this and for some reason the guy said yes and so then I faxed the letter over to the guy at the at the welding supply and he said uh he said all right the f the fire department doesn't have a problem with it then I guess it's okay and you know even though there are literally no rules about it right um so anyways it's all about convincing first of all you have to be the kind of person that is accurately not I mean that is not going to like cause problems with it and secondly you need to convince someone that it is a that that they can feel comfortable in selling to you and that's about it. So like you know if you have a you know like if you have some excuse like um you know I'm going into a business where I'm spending all this money on nitrous and it's ridiculous because there's no limit on how many nitrous cartridges you can buy and like you know you could fill like a uh you know a a 15 foot weather balloon with uh nitrous cartridges from uh whipped cream makers if if you so desired and then start inhaling that until you until you keel over dead but you know it's like and there's no law against it and there is no whatever I don't don't get me started. Now as for piping your sounds like thank god as for piping your house with CO2 it is entirely feasible to pipe your house with CO2. Bars are piped with CO2 all the time they're usually piped to the bar guns and to the carbonators or to their kegging systems and not to individual point of carbonation rigs but they do it all the time. They use a very tough kind of uh polyethylene it's a it's it's it's a braided reinforced like double polyethylene hose and they use um Odecor clamps that are you know not those little crappy ones that you that really tighten down with a with a clamp uh thing they're like ear clamps that are very good and they use uh you know nickel plated brass or stainless like uh flare fittings and all those things never like they don't fail right but the the danger in it because remember you're not running high pressure CO2 you're taking it down to the pressure you're gonna use it at which is you know in all cases under a hundred psi or thereabout even if you're running a full uh like a carp like a McCann full size carbonator uh and you're carbonating at room temperature and then piping it through a coal plate, you're still looking at no more than like a hundred and five probably PSI or something a hundred and ten maybe PSI through it.
+
+[22:59] So it's not like super high pressure, like 800 psi that you need to need to worry about. But you definitely want to get to use only uh things that are not gonna have catastrophic failures. The danger with CO2, like any other thing, is that uh it is an asphyxiant, right? So if you have luckily you can sense it. It's not like nitrate nitrogen where you're not gonna sense that you're being asphyxiated, but it is an ex asphyxiant.
+
+[23:27] So um you don't want to be in a situation where if you have uh a catastrophic leak that all of a sudden you know you you know die. So uh that's that's the main that's the main kind of a thing. But I've actually never heard of a case of it happening because you you get panicked in excess CO2. But I mean, I I've never heard of it happening. I mean, maybe it has, but I've never heard of it happening in uh in a beverage situation.
+
+[23:49] Just get the good hose. Don't get the crappy unreinforced BSOs. Uh okay. Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. Uh two questions.
+
+[23:59] This is from uh uh now he wants me to try to pronounce his name in Norwegian accent, but I can't do that. Only Nils can do that. And so Nils has given me like Nils pronounces by the way, thank goodness Nathan Mirval never listens to this show, except for the time he was on it, right? But he always says Mirvold, Mirvold, right? That's like Nils Swedish Nils' imitation of a Norwegian accent.
+
+[24:22] So now I have to say this name in a fa in a nil in my imitation of Nils doing a Norwegian how do we do it? Jurgen, right? Jurgen Daland Seldforce. Sellforce? Right?
+
+[24:36] That's how Nils would do it. I don't know how we'd say talent, force. Sellforce? Anyway, uh, anyway, okay, here are the questions. Uh are you involved with uh XKCD's survey?
+
+[24:48] Jack, I know Stas doesn't give a rat's test. You know about that. I think he's in the bathroom. Oh, he's in the bathroom. He's using the using the facilities.
+
+[24:54] Oh. Do you know even know what that is? That's that cartoon, that like tech science related cartoon. People go crazy for it. It's like uh on the Wikipedia, it has its own like explanations page that's not related to the actual comic.
+
+[25:05] It's like these like stick figures. Jack, you familiar you familiar with the cartoon XKCD? No, sir. Oh, and I think I've seen yes, I've seen it. Yeah, you've seen it.
+
+[25:14] XKCD, is that what you said? X K C D. And it doesn't mean anything? Like you can't say it. I don't know.
+
+[25:19] How are you gonna say it? I don't know. I'm sure there's a or what does it stand for? I don't know. Well, you look it up.
+
+[25:24] But anyway, so are you involved with their survey? Uh, because they've did a huge survey where they're trying to collect a bunch of random data to see whether or not you can make either interesting or interesting yet spurious uh correlations on large data sets, like people who don't like potato chips might also be more likely to kick puppies. I just said that I don't really that those aren't two questions. But anyway. Uh the there is a on it a sandwich question that reminds me of an episode which thought to define a sandwich by listing what is and what is not a sandwich.
+
+[25:56] Because in the in the survey there's a list of uh things, are they a sandwich or are they not? And I'm not gonna get back into it because I'm just gonna get all worked up about it. And uh it's all about anyway, I'm not gonna get into it. No, we're not involved. And then for Jack, is there any way for us not listening live and with no Twitter account to see the chat activity referenced in the show?
+
+[26:17] Yeah, I th I thought I answered this. Um I'm pretty sure you can get in that chat room and scroll up. And it should show you the history. Uh that's that's what I've done in the past. If I'm like not in, I can scroll up and see what happened.
+
+[26:31] Yeah. So just get in there and scroll up. Let me know if that works. No Twitter required, no nothing. Nope.
+
+[26:29] Okay. Uh hi, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and the chat verse. Ooh, I like that, the chat verse. Chat verse. Uh, I uh now this is about apple cider.
+
+[26:45] We didn't talk about the apple cider question last week, right? Strangely, even though it was an entire apple sex cider show. I don't think we talked about the cider, did we? I don't. I think we did.
+
+[26:56] Do you want to wait on the cider till the end so that people don't get cidered out? Yeah. Or do you want me to go through it? Wait. Oh, Stas, you're so mean.
+
+[27:03] All right, listen. I am going to I'm gonna I will I will get to it. I will get to it. Especially because it asked about the uh about the center fuge. We should talk about that.
+
+[27:12] When are we gonna talk about that on the break? Sure. Let me come back from the break? Okay. Uh all right, let me hit this real quick.
+
+[27:18] Uh from Chris. I'm writing in to ask about Greek uh Freppay coffee. What do you think about? Uh there's a guy, these guys in uh in uh you ever eat out in near Harvard, like at like the local kind of joints, not the places that Harold McGee takes us. Yeah, sometimes we do.
+
+[27:36] So there's this like place that Harvard people used to go. I went there when I was in college, right? Uh to this place, and I'll never forget it. My friend Mike went into it, right? And he goes, uh, because we're, you know, Connecticut people, you know what I mean?
+
+[27:49] And and he goes, uh, I want a milkshake. I want a milkshake. And the guy behind the counter says, You don't want a milkshake. He doesn't have that accent because he's from Boston, but I don't know. So he goes, You don't want a milkshake.
+
+[28:02] Mike goes, What the hell do you mean that I don't want a milkshake? He's like, a milkshake is when we just take milk and shake it. He's like, What you want is a frap. Not like a frappe. What you want is a frap.
+
+[28:17] And Michael's like, what the hell is this? You don't get to choose. This is not like the caterpillar in freaking uh Alice in Wonderland where you get to choose. No one on God's green freaking earth thinks that a milkshake is when you take milk and you shake it. That's some sort of like Harvard like yard abomination diner nonsense crap.
+
+[28:36] Jack, you ever heard of that? No, that's ridiculous. That's crazy. That's crazy. Anyway, frap.
+
+[28:44] Uh I'm here to ask about Greek frappe coffee. I discovered, by the way, uh, not even get into it, but you know, it means something entirely different in the cocktail world. Okay. Okay, whatever. You don't care.
+
+[28:55] It's nothing to do with what anyone thinks it means. Anyway, I discovered this drink in Athens a few years ago. And here's the drink. One teaspoon of Ness Cafe. And what we're talking about here is the instant coffee, aka taster's choice.
+
+[29:09] Which is in fact, no, but I bet you stuff, I bet you you like that stuff. No, I don't. You wait, but you like like the stale, crappy coffee that you get out of those quilted trucks on the side of the street. What? The what?
+
+[29:24] You you know it, Jack. What? Where the guy comes home from Africa and his sister's at the door, and she's like, You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do. Terrible.
+
+[29:33] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean it's coming out soon? Like every freaking year since 1990 something. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What?
+
+[29:41] Jack, explain it. Do you not go to the show? Guy comes back from Africa. He's a volunteer. He's a volunteer.
+
+[29:47] What? This is a Peter Kim? Peace Corps? Peace Corps, something like that. Sister opens the door.
+
+[29:51] Did you make this up? It's literally coming home from Africa. You know, I can actually hold on. No, let me explain. Sister.
+
+[30:06] Oh, I missed you so much. It's really weird. Long way from West Africa. Oh, real coffee. Real coffee.
+
+[30:14] Folgers. And he just came back. Oh man. You have to see it. It's all kinds of wrong.
+
+[30:20] No, they're eye contact. Yeah, yeah. The body language is no good on this one. And she just woke up. And then he gives her a gift and she's looking at him all intensely and she puts a bow on him.
+
+[30:30] I'm just narrating now. It's bad. What's kind of funny is that in West Africa, they like at least, you know, like in uh in Senegal at least, there's like this culture of this powdered coffee that is sold all over the streets. And is it good? Is it better than Folgers?
+
+[30:47] So she's a good thing. It's totally different. And it's more a fret because it's like tossed back and forth and it's got uh spices in it. So it's got the spice Jair in it. And uh yeah, tuba, cafe tuba, and it's like goes back and forth, but it's a little sweet, but you can get them to not put the it's a lot sweet, but you can get them to not put their sugar into it if you ask for it.
+
+[31:06] So like you can get plenty of freaking coffee in West Africa. Yeah. But you can't have coffee and incest at the same time, I don't think. Got a comment in the chat room from Tim. The best part of waking up is incest in your cup.
+
+[31:20] Oh. Wow. I can hear that. How about we take a break? Wait, wait, wait.
+
+[31:30] We'll answer the question afterwards. Alright, alright. Alright, we'll come back and talk about Greek crappay coffee. In the center of the face. Towards program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a for-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families.
+
+[32:00] This is Culture City's founder, Julian Maha. Culture City was really born out of uh necessity. You know, it was born when my uh you know currently six-year-old boy was diagnosed with autism. Uh his name is Abram, and he's non-verbal. And even though my wife and I were both physicians at the time, it was really hard for us to find any resources at that point to help him.
+
+[32:21] All the other organizations out there that we know of, um, they do phenomenal work, but their main focus is basically finding a cure for autism. Our main focus is basically trying to prepare the community to accept not only children with autism, but their families as well. You know, in addition to that, we also want to provide help to these families in the here and now. You know, so tangible things like, you know, iPads for nonverbal kids, you know, financial scholarships, uh therapy scholarships, you know, art camps, and also some um lecture series that can teach parents about, you know, dietary issues, um, you know, how to financially plan and things like that. For more information, visit CultureCity.org.
+
+[33:03] Nice. So, uh, you know, obviously, like uh, that's an important important topic for me and my family, obviously. But uh how long have they been uh been with us, Jack? Uh we've we've been connected to them for a while now. They're so so awesome.
+
+[33:19] I went down to Birmingham twice and hung out with that whole team and um once once at the gala with Aaron uh with Heritage, and then they had me come down and DJ the second gala they did uh just unbelievable stuff that they do. Like really, really, really great. Nice cool. Yeah, because you know so many people are trying to like all these autism organizations are usually like we're fighting for a cure. And these guys are like, no, that's not what we're doing.
+
+[33:40] We're just educating people, you know, on what it actually means to have autistic kids. Right. And also, you know, there's uh uh yeah, like yeah, they they uh look. I'm of many, like as a parent, many, many minds about this, which I you know, not me we're a cooking show, not to place necessarily to go go into it, but yeah, I mean, trying anything to r kind of remove stigma and ex and uh increase uh acceptance and understanding is uh good in my book, right? Yeah, totally.
+
+[34:09] Um, back to the Greek frappade coffee. Uh I discovered this drink in Athens a few years ago. One teaspoon of Nes Cafe, incest free, by the way. I'm gonna specify incest free. That's a new label that they're gonna introduce.
+
+[34:24] Yeah. Fair trade? Nah, nah, no. Incest free. Like the trade is still not fair, but it didn't involve incest, right?
+
+[34:32] Oh man. Dang. Dang. You know what I mean? Oh god.
+
+[34:37] Oh, now I have the best part of waking up good in my head. Incest in your case. You really never seen it, dude? No. No.
+
+[34:44] I must have missed that whole like era. Yeah, like every year. It comes every year. The shows that I watch don't advertise coffee, they advertise catheters. No, but you're the catheter store.
+
+[34:55] What kind of cathy do you need? You need like a self-lubricating catheter, you need a catheter you can take in your truck, you need a cat. Like, there's like like constant like CNN must have the most heavily cathetered audience, I think, like in the world. It's just all catheters all the time. All times of day, all times of night, catheters.
+
+[35:13] No? And like uh, and reverse mortgage reverse reverse mortgages. I know that guy. He just died. Fred Thompson?
+
+[35:23] Yeah. Yeah. Catheters. Yeah. And Humara adds.
+
+[35:28] Humera. I don't even know what it's for. Do you know what Humare is for? No. Jack, you have any idea what Hemares for?
+
+[35:33] I do not. Did you see that Charlie Sheen came out? Oh, yeah. What do you mean he came out? He has HIV.
+
+[35:40] Oh man. Yeah. Oh. Big long interview on today's show. That's terrible.
+
+[35:46] Huh. Well, that again. Uh let's take it back to Greek frat page coffee, shall we? Man. Man, it's killing killing the vibe.
+
+[35:59] Um, okay. So where were we? One teaspoon, Nes Cafe. And by the way, it says teaspoon, but I did some research. I have to be honest, I've never had uh instant coffee uh in my life.
+
+[36:12] You ever had a stuzz? Yeah. It is actually like if you read the coffee literature, I forget the name of it, but the AVI Press, which was published out of Connecticut in the 70s was like the uh series of highly technical uh you know books on um on food technology. They had one on coffee in which they described uh uh instant coffee as like one of the greatest technological achievements of all time. Just happens to taste bad.
+
+[36:36] Anyway, my assumption is it tastes bad. It's not that bad. Especially if you're like me and you like milk and sugar, you can't really taste. Really? Yeah.
+
+[36:45] All right. Okay, so uh, but anyway, all the recipes online. Uh don't just say a teaspoon, my friend. It is a heaping teaspoon, a heaping teaspoon of Nes Cafe, two teaspoons of sugar, a quarter cup of cold water, and then whip, whip, whip, to magical micro bubble foam with the immersion blender or similar. Pour over ice, add a splash of milk.
+
+[37:05] This without the milk forms a pretty stable micro bubble foam with intensified flavors and a creamy viscous mouthfeel. You like the words creamy and viscous? Creamy and viscous mouthfeel. Uh which one do you dislike both? Or in combination?
+
+[37:21] Miscus. What about the word meniscus? Nope, don't like it. Okay. Uh the thing I don't like about it is that it uses instant coffee, which I don't love the taste of as much as fresh coffee.
+
+[37:34] I'd appreciate your advice and making a an espresso slash fresh uh brewed coffee version. I would also expect a cold brew coffee version would be spectacular if the hot brew version worked out. I don't know about that because okay, well I've tried stick blending soy lecithin at various concentrations into uh rapid chilled uh fresh coffee and did not get a stable foam or the same micro bubbles with uh as with the Nescafe version. I have also tried various concentrations of Xanthan gum, and it goes from unstable foam to coffee snot before stabilizing in the uh in the way, as with instant coffee would. Coffee snot sounds really bad.
+
+[38:12] Like it sounds like you have a sickness and you've like snarfed it through your nose and then blew it out, which is unpleasant. Unpleasant. Um I suspect I might need some kind of solid slash bulking agent, but I'm at a loss for what those might be. I have an extra constraint that I avoid soy proteins, so VersaWhip is not an option. They make a uh non soy versa whip, by the way.
+
+[38:34] You just have to make sure you know which one is which. Uh wait, wait, wait. Oh, you avoid soy proteins, but not soy less lessithin. All right. I also find that the splash of milk, even skim, seems to accelerate the breaking of the foam, causing the small bubbles to quickly join together and flow to the top of the drink.
+
+[38:44] It would be great to prevent this if possible. Any thoughts, advice, much appreciated. Thanks, Chris. Okay. Um, you're you're look okay.
+
+[38:57] So what the instant coffee does for you, obviously, is uh it is soluble in cold water, right? So you can already use cold water to make it, right? That's the advantage. I did the calculations, right? So uh what you're looking at with that Nest Cafe, oh man, I I did the calculations last week because I thought I was gonna do it last week, and I don't remember them.
+
+[39:19] I don't remember them. But you're it's a soluble solids uh uh thing, and so you're supposed to put that amount of coffee, a heaping teaspoon of of of instant coffee, into six ounces of liquid, and instead you're putting it into two ounces of liquid. So you're roughly three times the solids content as you would get in a normal cup of coffee. That plus it's cold, right? So espresso, uh like a really like high extraction espresso, is going to have a higher solids content than you would get in uh in this by by yourself.
+
+[39:55] So if you make a very concentrated espresso and have it go right over an ice cube, you might level out at just about the solids content that you need. Um, you know, as long as you didn't like uh as long as you didn't, and I'd have to redo some calculations on how cold the actual espresso would get. But this is how I make I make shaken espresso like that all the time, even without an immersion blender, and you get a very nice uh bubble. Now, if you don't have the, in other words, if if if it's too watered down at that point, then I would just have the espresso let it cool off for a while, then put it uh on, you know, whip it the hell up and pour it, pour it over ice, and it and it should work. Because think about this.
+
+[40:38] Pick up on this. You're using two ounces of water and a teaspoon of sugar in your thing, which is very high solids, right? Not not just the high solids from the coffee, but you have extra sugar in there. So you are dealing uh you're whipping something that's only a quarter cup, two ounces. So if you just do like a highly extracted espresso and add enough ice water to take it up to two ounces with sugar, you should be in roughly the same ballpark and it should work.
+
+[41:03] What do you think, Sas? Yes. Yeah. As for the milk stabilizing it, yeah, I wouldn't use uh Xanthan because it's gonna snot up. I'd use something a little more uh less snotty.
+
+[41:15] Perhaps Xanthan mixed with um. I have to think on it a little bit. But give that a shot. Let me know how how it works. And if you desperately need to add milk, you could just thicken up the milk with something, nah, but not Xanthan.
+
+[41:29] I gotta think on it. I gotta think on it. But anyway, let me let me know how that works. Um, okay. I enjoy oh wait, we already did this.
+
+[41:36] We did it, we're not gonna do the cider right now. We're not gonna do the cider right now because Nastasi doesn't want to hear anything about cider. No. She doesn't want to hear anything about cider. Okay.
+
+[41:43] Cidered out. Cidered out. Although I would like to discuss, although you know what? Nastasi and I may on Thursday spin another batch of cider in the centrifuge. Should we talk centrifuge now, real quick?
+
+[41:55] Yeah. So I might spin another batch of cider in a centrifuge, in which case I can come and talk to you about the results from that second um spin because I have another, I have my second and last batch of cider for the year that is about to be done with primary fermentation. Um, update on the I think right for right now we're calling it the the Booker and Dax 500, right? Is what we're calling or something like that. Uh Centerfuge.
+
+[42:14] Updates on the centrifuge. So I got some good news and I got some bad news. The good news is that when you get it, you're gonna love it. That's the good news. The bad news is is that it does not look like we will be able to put it on sale on Black Friday.
+
+[42:32] Uh on pre-sale on Black Friday. Now the plan, I think we discussed the plan, right? The plan was to put it on pre-sale on uh on Black Friday, and we're gonna give you uh uh like a hefty discount over what the eventual retail price will be, and also we're gonna let you like put your place in line, right? Because you know, we're not gonna probably make enough, you know, whatever. So but it just so happens that all that all of the motor suppliers to all of the people right now just went on strike.
+
+[43:05] And so the prototype, which is fundamentally done and is going to be shipped over here, like the last one before we pay for the hard tooling, the one that we need to do all the videos to like put up on Black Friday. The factory is on strike, and so we won't get it until until probably December first. So we plan on still putting it on sale before the holidays. So I would reserve some of that, some of that, you know, buying ability. Uh and we still plan on having you be able to send Christmas cards out to your buddies.
+
+[43:36] And if you were a Kickstarter um backer, we will be sending you, you know, your uh your notice with an extra $20 off, but it will unfortunately will not be the day after Thanksgiving. I think Nastasia secretly set up this strike because she is sick for the past three years. She is sick and tired of always having some sort of Black Friday nonsense to deal with, right? Yeah, yeah. No, Red didn't set it up.
+
+[44:02] So we're we could actually pretend that we're just not going to be part of Black Friday. I'm not going to be part of it. I'm not going to believe in that commercialism. That's not true though. That would be a lie.
+
+[44:10] There's a strike in the factory. But the good news is that if there's a strike, uh maybe uh we have an even slightly less uh slightly more exploitation free motor. Right? Anything about that? Yeah, that's a good thing.
+
+[44:22] It's a good thing. Christmas miracle. Christmas Christmas miracle. So more updates on that. But we never do we ever talk about what the centrifuge can do, or are we going to wait until we get closer?
+
+[44:30] Let's wait. I will say this. Here's what I will say. It will have a one-shot capacity of 500 mils at a time. It will not require balancing.
+
+[44:43] It I have written recipes to have it clarify all the standard stuff that I do at the bar, and I've also done like a lot of the modernist cuisine, like the pea butter and all that. It works for the pea butter, it works for uh herb oils, it works for all of that, works for all the Costinos, it works for lime juice, it works for all that. Here's what's cool about it. Aside from the fact that it's gonna cost less than a thousand bucks, and it's gonna be, you know, a little bit bigger than a cuisin art, uh, not very much bigger than a cuisin art, so countertop friendly and cabinet friendly. Uh aside from that, and the fact that Diary mentioned you won't have to balance it, it's not gonna require balancing.
+
+[45:20] Yep. Okay. Uh, we're gonna be able you're gonna be able to run it in batch mode, which means that you're going to be able to uh like uh put like a container with like a couple of gallons of uh orange juice and then just run it without stopping and have it go. Now the product won't be, I gotta be honest, won't be as clear as it will be in like single-time batch mode, but it'll allow you to get very large uh throughput of items like that. So more discussion about you know how it works and what it's doing as we get closer, but just thought I'd give you guys the updates, right?
+
+[45:44] Yep. Okay. Uh this is from Kirk in Atlanta, Georgia. Got a quick question. Uh I made some clear ice by wrapping a bread pan with insulation, uh, insulation tape, a bootleg version of the cooler method, carved it all up and threw it in my freezer.
+
+[46:08] A few weeks later, I see that all of the ice cubes have lost a significant amount of their mass. I moved into a new house and the fridge slash freezer isn't new. Is there anything I can do to prevent this loss, or am I just stuck with having to make ice weekly to keep pace with my cocktail consumption? Okay, first of all, uh is it a frost-free freezer or is it not a frost-free freezer? Because I would think that in a frost-free freezer, um, you're you're gonna have a lot more uh weight loss over time.
+
+[46:33] But secondly, uh I would wrap your ice cubes in or put them, put the slabs after you cut them, what put them in Ziploc bags, and you will not get any you will not get nearly as much uh loss because you're gonna maintain the in I'm making quote marks, the humidity on the inside of the bag, and you're not gonna get as much sublimation off of your ice cubes as you would otherwise. So there's two reasons they could be shrinking, right? One is sublimation due to dry air inside of the thing, which I think would tend to be enhanced by frost-free freezer. And secondly, it could be literal uh freeze thaw mass loss if you're going through hardcore freeze thaws, like if you're actually getting drip off off the ice cubes. Either way, you will know if you put the ice cubes into get you can buy two-gallon Ziploc bags, right?
+
+[47:18] So you don't have to worry about it. Go throw them in two gallon zippies. They make freezer ones, but I don't know if they make two gallon freezers. They might only make one gallon freezers, but try zippies uh and let me know what happens. Um team, I'm trying to make cultured maple butter and it's working okay, but not great.
+
+[47:33] Can you help? Making the butter is fine. I culture cream into creme fraîche, then whip whip the cream and standing mixer until the solids just separate. I strain out the buttermilk, squeeze the solids together, and rinse them in cold water to get rid of the rest of the buttermilk. The problem I'm having is getting the maple syrup into the butter.
+
+[47:50] Even though some of the one quarter cup of syrup per pound of butter I use gets mixed into the butter, not all of it does, and then the butter sort of wheeps. Weeps maple syrup drops. The flavor is fine, but not as robust as I would like. And the weeping is a little weird looking. The only recipes I have found for maple butter have you mix the syrup to the butter once the butter has been made, as I tried to do, or a straight maple syrup spread, maple syrup that has been heated and whipped.
+
+[48:18] Um what's the best way to get grape maple flavor into dairy butter? How would you do it? I don't have any modernist cooking types of appliances, but I do have a great uh thermometer, a Vitamix, and a stove. Thanks for your show and hope to hear your thoughts. Kelly, okay, Kelly, here's what I think.
+
+[48:31] The problem is this you what you're okay. We when you're let's say you were to knead the hell out of the butter after you make it. You have to get like, let's say you were to get all the way out, right? Which I don't actually. I like to leave more of the buttermilk in uh than um you would get commercially because I think it adds to the the kind of flavor of the fresh butter, right?
+
+[48:50] So I don't try to get it. Now commercial butter, right, can range in its solids content, but typically when you buy the more expensive butters, they have a very high solids content to them, uh i.e. not as much water. Um and what you're looking to do is replace the water in at least a portion of the water in the butter with uh maple syrup, which should work, but the thing is is that you're gonna have to get it in there and you're always gonna have some weeping unless you do this. I think what you should do is make yourself a very uh thickened uh maple syrup.
+
+[49:29] Now you could either make a an agar kind of fluid gel, very fine uh you know agar fluid gel. In fact maybe that's what I would do. But it still wouldn't be a hundred percent maple because you'd need to do the agar and you can't do agar and a straight maple syrup. You'd have to do agar into a little bit of water and then temper the maple syrup in. But you could probably get I don't know what the maximum bricks you could get is but you could probably get it pretty high.
+
+[49:53] You could try any other sort of uh thickener on the maple syrup but I would thicken the hell up xanthan for instance like if you made like a real snotty xanthan in water you could dope it back into the maple syrup. I don't know that whether you can get Xanthan directly hydrated into maple syrup or not. But anyway the goal here is to make the maple syrup stand on its own and then you're basically folding a solid into the into the butter and then it shouldn't weep out. It might look weird as it's spread though. The other alternative would be to um the other alternative would be to and I don't know if this is going to work but you could make the butter then uh break it could you re-emulsify it then can you make it again?
+
+[50:38] I don't think you could make it again. I was gonna say like you want to replace the water in the milk with the water in the cream with maple syrup to some extent and make it with the maple syrup in it, right? I wonder whether that would work. But the issue is is that I think you'd need to add quite a lot. I don't know how how like I think you'd be diluting it.
+
+[50:57] So if you figure that heavy cream is roughly thirty percent uh or ch thirty and change percent fat, right? Then it's like sixty and change percent water. So even if you were to add um even if you were to add uh let's say six hundred mils of um six hundred mils of maple syrup to a quart uh or to a liter of heavy cream, you'd still only half of the of the non-fat stuff in that mixture would be maple syrup, right? I think that's your problem. But um I don't know, I'd like to try some stuff and give it a shot.
+
+[51:31] Uh do or do we is uh are we uh are we getting kicked off? Do I have time to do one more because I miss this blanching celery thing? Quick? All right. All right.
+
+[51:39] Uh so I will I'm not getting to the uh to the Robichon fries. Maybe we can talk about that tomorrow because we're gonna be out the what's it called tomorrow, right? Um but I do want to get to this because I mentioned it last week. Um Dave, Nastasia, and and Jack. Um this one's just a Jack, doesn't care what we think.
+
+[51:59] From Alan. Um please ask Dave how he would blanch cartoon in the kitchen if it didn't get blanched in the garden. So cartoons are. Hey Dave, how would you blanch cartoon in the kitchen? Uh okay.
+
+[52:11] It very interesting question. So blanching by blanching, what we mean here is not like uh you know, putting in boiling water uh what's going on. That's not the kind of blanching we're talking about. What we're talking about here is um the procedure of uh not allowing light to get to uh plus so this is done with for instance, um celery, although they have celery that's uh you know that is self-blanching now. Uh but cartoons and uh also uh I guess you know, on div and things like that, right?
+
+[52:42] That on dee th you like that word on dive. Anyway, uh of getting rid of the chlorophyll, but not just the chlorophyll, some of the bitterness. And so what you're supposed to do is several weeks before harvest, you're supposed to wrap like either mound up earth or wrap uh the thing so that the sun doesn't get to them but they're still respiring, right? And this blanches them out. Now, the question is if they haven't done this for you, how the heck are you gonna do it?
+
+[53:06] Um and I've never tried it. In fact, I don't really get to cook much cartoon because we not a lot of not a lot of cartoon here in the US, right, Stas. You ever like No? No. No.
+
+[53:17] No. No. Yeah. Uh no, no. But you would like it because you love artichokes.
+
+[53:22] But you would love it. Yeah, I know. Because you like artichokes. Well, I like artichokes, but you you don't like artichokes. You love artichokes.
+
+[53:28] Yeah. Well, you could put butter on a cartoon, you freak show. Anyway. Uh so um ecotrofi. Yeah, it's like one of the good Italian words, right?
+
+[53:38] It sounds like a curse word. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, please. Please don't get me starting on that one. So um I looked it up, right?
+
+[53:46] So the question is, can like okay. Can you just put it in a basement, for instance, and get it to work? Well, so uh I didn't find any information on cartoons, but I did look up uh celery. Now, celery is responsive to ethylene gas. Right?
+
+[54:05] But uh, you know, and you can just look up uh celery and blanching and ethylene and you can find this. And in fact, there's a paper on celery from the twenties from like 1927. You can get it's the um I think it's called uh I can't read my writing, but action of ethylene gas uh accelerated blanching on celery from like the 20s. Uh and you you can look at it. Now, this this paper doesn't have temperature control in it to the extent that some of the modern studies do.
+
+[54:29] But celery, you're supposed to keep celery away from ethylene-producing fruits, uh like a bananas, uh, because uh they can get what's called damaged, i.e., they go through it through accelerated respiration. If the gethalene level is too high, according to the 27 paper, you don't. But the other key is that it needs to be maintained above refrigerator temperatures for this to happen. So, what I would do is put it in a light-free place or wrap it, but not too closely because the uh the the increase respiration in at least in celeries, so maybe also in cartoon, uh, is uh enhanced by the removal of CO2. So you don't want to put it in something that traps the CO2 in it, and then just put like or keep it in like you know, like wrap like paper so that things can leave, but it's like bananas and cartoon.
+
+[55:13] This is a test. This is just a theory. I have no idea this would work, and keep it in a light proof place for a week or two and see what happens. Now, I don't know whether you can keep the cartoon alive more by putting it in water so that it doesn't crap out like you do with herbs, but the problem there is I don't know whether or not there's a way to prevent bacteria from growing in that water to keep it from going too swampy. But this is just a test.
+
+[55:31] So let me know what happens. Let me know whether you have any suggests blanching the cartoons, and we'll talk to you tomorrow from Bassbro shops, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[55:57] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort.
+
+[0:24] The biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble response. Muckle shooter! So we're live, Jack.
+
+[0:31] We're live on cooking issues. First of all, I like this. I like standing next to you guys when you're doing it instead of like just having you in the other room. What do you think, Stas? Yeah, I like it.
+
+[0:38] Alright, so Stas, do you have the questions? Uh yes. We have some questions that were tweeted in about like uh you know things at the Bass Pro shop. Give me a proper intro, though. Yeah.
+
+[0:49] Alright. So like Ben. I forget what I normally say. What do I normally say? I can't even remember.
+
+[1:00] Really? Hello, this is Dave Arnold. I'm so used to like being okay. I got it, I got it, I got it. Hello, and welcome to Cookie Issues.
+
+[1:12] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Bass Pro Shop in Bridgeport, Connecticut! Joined as usual in the parking lot with uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? How you been doing today? Good.
+
+[1:25] Doing anything what'd you do? What do you do? Anything fun? What do you do? Yes, we made work jobs.
+
+[1:30] And standing next to me, which I appreciate for the first time ever in the engineering section of the parking lot. That's right. We got Jack Isley, Jackie Molecules. How you doing? I'm great.
+
+[1:38] Nice. Alright, so Nastasia and I. Uh Jack didn't didn't get to go in yet, but Nastassi and I just got a sneak peek of uh the Bass Pro shop before they opened. So it's like a rare time to see the Bass Pro shops, but it's completely empty. Now, they didn't really want us like milling about on the inside, so we only really saw the kind of cooking area of the section.
+
+[1:57] But to give you an idea of what a Bass Pro shop is, for those of you that don't know about a Bass Pro, which by the way, we're not affiliated with the Bass Brook Shop in any way, shape, form. Nope. Any in any way. So it's like kind of like uh it's kind of like Disneyland mixed with uh with an outdoor shop. You say it's accurate?
+
+[2:11] Yes. All right. So for instance, they have a bowling alley where all the bowling balls, like some of them are like bass, like fishing themes, but they also have great white shark uh and they like and the ball returns are like sharks and octopi. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:26] It's pretty cool. And like the the overheads have like that kind of like 50s, like uh enchantment under the sea prom night action going on, but with like like some sort of like weird like animatronic fishing reef overhead. They have uh yeah, they have like uh they have a restaurant there that you can hang out, and like you know, they have a overflow traffic. They have a whole bar. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:46] And then we're you know, we're gonna go bowl a game later on after we're done with the show. And uh, but we're here really to talk about the fact that Bass Pro Shops has a very large selection of cooking gear in it, which is really kind of how this is happening why we're here. And it's a very interesting intersection, one that uh I know I'm interested in, and it's it's like half kind of hunter fisher, like preservation stuff, so a lot of dehydration and a lot of like sausage grinding, like you can get a pretty big sausage grinder here, uh, but then also just a lot of outdoor cooking in general. Tell them what you want. Like which part of what I want?
+
+[3:19] The one thing that you would really like to buy from here. But it has nothing to do with cooking. Yes, it does. You're talking about the pontoon. No!
+
+[3:26] The thing you saw today. Oh, the giant skillet? Yeah, yes. Or no, so no, so they so you so I saw the picture of that. That's a big skillet.
+
+[3:32] That's a big that's a big old skillet. Now, here's the weird thing. Apparently, that's for like a camping guys to do it, use it. Use it, but it's Teflon. So, like it was Teflon coated.
+
+[3:40] Who the heck is gonna put a Teflon coated pan on an outdoor fire? Because if you overheat the Teflon, done Dunski. You know what I mean? That's a good point. I would not, would you?
+
+[3:50] No. But it was Teflon, wasn't it? It wasn't. That's it. That's I think a product that needs improvement.
+
+[3:55] I love it. It needs some improvement. Needs to go old school, in fact. Needs to go back in time to an era where they just would season the hell out of their pants before they use them. Now they do have an in a very large cast iron section, which I appreciate.
+
+[4:07] I was talking to one of their uh product uh sales per people, like who, and I was trying to get a read off of the guy, kind of what is selling and what's not, like what's and uh apparently, and this is good news for us in general, um things like uh old old style cooking techniques like uh like Dutch oven cooking with the with the old not like what we're used to, but the ones where you actually have the uh the lip where you put coals on top of it and cook outdoor, like outdoor camp cooking in a in a in a cast iron Dutch oven. He says that's really coming back, making a resurgence, and they're gonna teach classes uh and whatnot here later on the outdoor kind of cooking. But what I want uh more to Anastasia's point is I've kind of had my eye for a while on this thing called a cowboy grill. You seen this, Jack? No, I haven't.
+
+[4:48] Stas, why don't you I know you explain it? So it's kind of like a combination fire pit slash uh slash outdoor grill. Oh, say that again. Can you say that on a road? We're on the radio show.
+
+[5:00] What brings you to what brings you to Bass Pro tonight, ma'am? Well I'm a bridgeport kid, grown birthed in Bridgeport Hospital, Bridgeport Hospital ICU Medicine. I'm a nurse. I opened a home care company, abundant care, right here in Bridgeport. Show.
+
+[5:13] I drove up and down the street for 15 years watching people get killed, literally with the potholes. I got nails, potholes, and Mayor Finch owes me a lot of money. But I'm down here now. Why don't you tell people what this particular neighborhood where we were was like before this went in? Oh my gosh, Carpenter's Steel.
+
+[5:29] Carpenter's steel right along the water, okay. Um Pleasure Beach, the boats, the docks, the ferry, Port Jeff Ferry. Okay, forever right in this area. Then you got Sea View, which will swing you right up to Bridgeport Hospital, right? Perfect.
+
+[5:45] Gotta get on and off, gotta get the EMTs out. And that's my story. But do you think but do you think that uh having something like this here is gonna bring a lot more people to the region? Absolutely. You know the jobs that they're gonna create.
+
+[5:56] I hear, I hear through the grapevine that Mario Batali is gonna come in to Main Street, the chew, right next to Ralph and Richie. That's gonna be cool. Let me ask. Do you think that's true? Is the Batali coming here to us?
+
+[6:07] That would be good. I heard that from the restaurant guy. Her boyfriend is the chef at Del Posto, which is one of uh Batali's the like flagship restaurants. I haven't heard anything, but that would be great. I'll drop it.
+
+[6:19] She said you heard it from the restaurant guys? They used to be on our radio station. That's right. Oh wow. Look at that.
+
+[6:27] Some big uh dinner tonight for a whole bunch of restaurant guys. La Collivere, uh Ralph and Richie. If the restaurant guy said it, I think it's gonna happen. I mean, can you imagine coming here? That would be amazing for Bridgeport.
+
+[6:40] Maybe maybe a culinary scoop here. That's right. I think we just got a scoop. Maybe a mil maybe we have a uh culinary scoop here on cooking your shoes from the Bass Pro Shop parking lot. You get Ryan Cinto to cook.
+
+[6:50] He's the best cook I've ever known, and he can cook. I know some pretty good cooks though. Yeah, there are some good. I'm a good cook too. I'm having an open house on Thanksgiving.
+
+[6:59] Sure, it's good for business, abundant care. I got the Napa reserve, I do. Awesome. I was in Napa in uh June. I was out there for uh my brother got sick, and my sister-in-law went out, she got sick, I drove a car, got lost in the valley, brought home 36 cases of reserve.
+
+[7:16] You heard it here first. Thank you for joining cooking issues. Enjoy. So okay. Not our normal.
+
+[7:25] That's great. Not our normal, but nice. What if that actually happened? What if we broke. I'm a nurse and I gotta take care of these kids around here.
+
+[7:32] Yeah, yeah. That's right. What if we broke the news of a new Mario Bitali restaurant? Pretty sure we just did from the Terry Lodge. I don't know.
+
+[7:44] Anyway, so uh back to what we were talking about. Yeah. So they have two, so so the thing that I want is this thing called a cowboy grill. And what it is, is it's a fire pit, but it has like a uh expanded metal grate over it so that you can cook on the fire print but you can rip the grate off. But the other cool thing is it's got like an old school swing arm, like for uh like a kettle that you can hang over it, and it's got a rotisserie on it that you could like hand crank.
+
+[8:07] So it's like kind of like one-stop shopping for cooking outside and for fire. My only problem is is that you know, uh like Miley Carpenter, my sister-in-law Wiley Dufrey and the chef, so they have a really kind of a nice fire pit, but their fire pit is like that kind of steel that like just rusts to a certain point but never rusts any more than that. Uh-huh. So it stays outside all the time. This thing is got that black paint on it, so you know it's gonna rust out.
+
+[8:31] They said it's gonna rust out. Well, what is it, yeah. It's what he said. Also, I mean, but listen, look, they seem like very nice people, but they were trying to convince me. You know you know you know what the top seller is right now, Jack?
+
+[8:41] Here? No. They call it oilless fryer. Oh no. Oiless turkey fryer.
+
+[8:47] What Stas is making her oiless fryer face, which isn't the vegan face, it's more like the what kind of nonsense is that face? It's kind of like smiling because obviously, like if you you if you put the words oiless and fry together, you've just lied. Mario Batali would not use that product. No, oilless fryer. And the guy's like, it's just like it's that you fried it.
+
+[9:08] I'm like, well, then you're frying wrong. Then you're frying wrong. See, like I like, right? It's just not right. Weird.
+
+[9:13] Do you know what I'm gonna do? How does it work? Do you want it it does it's just I think it's just a roasting, it doesn't. He the guy really liked it, but it can't. So can I talk about an invention that I'm gonna make?
+
+[9:24] Yeah. That I don't think I'm gonna we're gonna sell it ever. So I don't think it's gonna I don't know. I don't think I have to worry about patent it because I'm never gonna sell it. I am going to make the low volume oil, this is for turkeys and pigs and cows.
+
+[9:36] Ready? The low volume oil spray fryer. Right? So it's like a washing machine, but instead of spraying detergent and hot water, it's gonna spray freaking hot oil. So you can have a small amount of oil, right?
+
+[9:51] With like a like an intense little heater and fry anything that you can fit into a dishwasher. By spraying it. Well, it's just gonna be like, you know how like, okay, so the way that I finish something large when I don't have a deep fryer is I heat a thing of oil and then I'll ladle hot fat over it. So that's how like, you know, what if I have to do turkey like at my in-laws' house or at my mom's house, I'll go outside, I'll superheat the oil, put the oil on a grill to keep it at the right temperature, uh which is unsafe, please I don't want to hear it. And then like I'll ladle I'll like ladle the hot fat over the stuff to crisp up the skin.
+
+[10:20] The same way that like uh in a restaurant when you're cooking, uh, and this is the the secret that I don't know why home cooks haven't figured this out yet, but you have the hot pan with the fat in it, you tip the pan back with a spoon and you base the hot fat over the thing to get the other side warm and nice, right? That's that's how you do it. Which you never see people do that at home. You ever see people do that in home styles? But every single restaurant cook knows what how to do that.
+
+[10:42] Why doesn't everyone know how to do that? It's just so simple. I think it's because people don't put enough f uh fat in the pan when they're doing stuff anyway. So they don't have anything to like baste over the top. But anyway, uh, you know, if you're the one person who listens to this show that didn't already know that, congrats.
+
+[10:55] Like you're now you're part of the club. But they uh but the point is imagine if you did that in a uh in like in something the size of a dishwasher and it was just like spraying hot oil around. The real question is the safety interlocks, because imagine if you opened up the dishwasher style thing when the oil was still spraying, it's like ah that's not good. That's okay. It's got a lock.
+
+[11:19] It's got a well, it's got a lock and it's gotta take. So if you ever use a combi oven, Jack, those things like usually you have to pop it once, it turns off, then you pop it again to open it. Right. So that you're not like otherwise you could like just open it and the steam is like who right in your face. Which is bad, considered bad.
+
+[11:35] I'm sure it happened to the first few people, especially because like the rationale, which is like the first big combi oven that a lot of people got in the United States, it's like German. And so I bet they were like, well, the instructions say not to do this, so why would you ever open it when it's on? You know what I mean? Like I'm sure the early German ones, you could just like scald your face off because everyone who owned it just followed the instructions. Right.
+
+[11:57] Whereas soon as it comes to you know America, we're like, you know, I don't read any, I don't read any concern instructions. And then you opened it and you know, some dude scald their face off and looked like a peeled grape. And then they uh you know they had to like, you know, put all these safety interlocks on. Anyways. Anyways, hey, I have to jump in here and say that I'm I'm thrilled.
+
+[12:16] We're getting tweets that people are listening live. This is actually working. So people are actually listening to this live in the back. Okay, so good so his name is a moose Douche. Oh, I love that guy.
+
+[12:24] Twitter, yeah. Yeah. Listening with it. We're buddies, yeah. And so he says he uh he wants an autograph on a on a on a board like that.
+
+[12:30] I don't really know what this means. We don't wear it. I'd take an autograph maybe on a booze board to match the one I already have. I have one with me. But the um do you want a question?
+
+[12:38] Yeah. Okay, here's a Twitter question. Uh at Scooter Zachheim says I'm making a deboned injected turkey cooked over hot stuffing this week. Temp temperature thoughts 350, 375, 400 stuffing temp. Thanks.
+
+[12:52] Wait, mean for the finish? Presumably for the finish. Let me see, let me see this question. So I'm making a D-bone injected turkey cooked over okay, cooked over hot stuffing. Hmm so if you're not gonna low temp it at all but see usually what I'll do is I'll low temp it for a while and put it over to flash it up but yeah I think high is good.
+
+[13:13] If the stuffing is really nice and hot I think you could go high. Yeah I think you go on the higher side like in the fours, right? If you deboned it, you could probably go in like the the mid-fours and like throw it over the thing and just wait for the skin to crisp up and it should be good. I think it's gonna work Jack just got a little bit of a little safety question, a weird one. He makes food for his cat and he buys a vitamin bone meal mix that's meant to be mixed with raw chicken.
+
+[13:39] He gets his raw chicken from a bushwick grocery store. Bushwick yeah however so he's been shopping it into chunks and quickly frying it with the idea of killing any nasties hanging out on the outside. Is there a better way to do this that's simple and quick he's a cat that used to literally eat garbage in bed style so I don't worry too much about him but I always wonder if there's a better way to do this. This is a good question. So there's a whole school of thought on uh animal foods, and there's a whole school of thought specifically on uh food needing to be raw that you feed the animals.
+
+[14:09] And I've always wondered why, but I I don't know whether it's just animals don't get foodborne viruses or not. Um but the other problem is is did they say that they boned it out, or is it oh it's got bone meal mixed with raw chicken, but the chicken if you cook a chicken bone, it's really bad because then it starts splintering. So you have to be careful of that. So what are they doing? They're frying it.
+
+[14:32] No, there's no simple, I don't know of any simple way other than like a fast, like a super fast high heat. I mean you could just throw it like the chunks of chicken into like a five jillion degree oven for like you know 10 minutes and kill anything on the outside, but I don't yeah, I don't know if anything it's gonna be super. I mean, like because I don't know whether your cat's gonna enjoy it if you dipped it in bleach. You know what I mean? Like you could probably dip it in bleach, but I don't know if your cat's gonna enjoy that so much.
+
+[15:03] I know my dog who's incredibly picky would not, yeah, no bone. Oh, no one in the in the uh in the chat room verse can't like has some experience because I have to say I just feed my dog like you know, like store bug crappy store-bought food. Fair enough. All right, next question. All right Joe Hanley, New York City says, Dave, can you send out the name of the squid guts fish sauce you talked about at the Mofad Labs?
+
+[15:29] It's called Ishiri. So the fish gut sauce that we use is made exclusively from the guts and blood of squid, and it's called Ishiri. It's from Ishikawa in Japan, and it's carried by the Mutual Trading Corporation uh in Sea Caucus, New Jersey. And what you do is you just uh uh if you call them in advance, they will uh send it into their store in Manhattan. But if you go to mutual Trading uh Company, they can they can get it.
+
+[15:54] And I also found out that True World Foods carries my other favorite uh Japanese fish sauce, Ayu. And they can get that. So True World Foods. So those are the two sources uh for the ones. But go get some Mishiri because as I've said, I think on the show before, and I said live at the museum event, uh it is a dead ringer for the Garam Sociarum that was uh specifically made out of mackerel guts that I had I had the I had Sally Granger who as I said is the is the exp world expert on Roman fish sauces.
+
+[16:21] It was her personal stock of two-year-old uh garum that she had mixed uh to the recipes as best she could. Dead ringer, ishiri. So if you want to go Roman, go get yourself some sheer from Mutual Trading Corporation. Hello, sir. Welcome to the Bass Pro.
+
+[16:35] We're uh we're on a show called Cooking Issues that deals with uh kind of uh cooking cooking techniques and and problems. What pit barbecue? Oh, yeah? Oh nice, all right. So I've been doing it for for 40 years.
+
+[16:45] You can hold my mic. Oh, I'm talking about. Yeah, you're if you don't want your live. So what c so what brings you? Are you doing a barbecue here later?
+
+[16:52] No, no, I just came to see the shop. It's about time they have something like this in this area. It's amazing. People don't realize there's enough hunters and fishermen in Connecticut, and I think people would be surprised if the place is packed. I think a lot of people don't understand what Connecticut is once you get right off the highway.
+
+[17:11] You know what I mean? Yeah, uh, yeah, it's true. There's a large lot of forest land here and and everything, the lakes are great up north of uh Danbury, you got Candlewood and everything, so some great fishing. Uh Norwalk River goes all the way up to Danbury. Great trout fishing through there.
+
+[17:26] Yeah, so are you currently doing pit barbecue in Kentucky or is visible? Oh, you're Norwalk. I live in Norwalk right now. Oh, Kentucky aboriginally. So what's b pit barbecue from more than 40 years.
+
+[17:36] What's the style uh in Kentucky as opposed to let's say like a North Carolina or something like that? So what's the style of barbecue? Kentucky it's more of a western. I'm from Western Kentucky and West Kentucky, West Tennessee, which is Memphis. Okay.
+
+[17:47] So that's the style of barbecue you're gonna find. A light rub, uh when you uh pit smoke your meat, it's uh usually hickory and white oak or oak. Okay, and maybe some fruit trees would. And then what we do is we burn the wood offset and then shovel the coals underneath the meat, let the grease hit the hit the coals and it smokes up and it's actually a science to it. Now are are most people so I know that in the mid, I would say in the early to mid 90s, almost everyone who is doing uh professionally on the coast anyway, over in Carolina, almost everyone has switched over to gas.
+
+[18:22] And there's only a few holdouts left that were splitting wood and making their own, doing their own stuff. Do you feel that it's come back? That it's gone the other way, or is it just neighborhood to neighborhood? It's what it is is is area. Okay, you're not gonna find that gas down in Kentucky and Tennessee or Alabama or even Georgia really.
+
+[18:40] Uh you taste the fuel on the meat if you use the gas. You actually taste it. Uh there's a barbecue place up here in Fairfield. Okay, I don't I won't say the name, but you if when you eat is meat, you can taste the fuel. You know, my bar uh my pit in my backyard in Norwalk, I don't ever use gas or anything, I just use straight wood, and you never taste the fuel.
+
+[19:00] You taste smoke. Do you do it? Do you sell professionally or just do it for yourself? Uh I uh do it for myself and then people ask me to do it for them, and uh I I charge a little money for it. And I did 30, 31 turkeys last Thanksgiving, and probably more than that this year for pe for different people.
+
+[19:18] So you think like in places like Kentucky, those guys never switched over to gas? No, no, no, no. They won't do it. Nice. It's the way they are.
+
+[19:26] Deep South is like that. They won't touch the gas. Well, you know, like in eastern North Carolina, which is where I used to spend uh most of my time eating barbecue back in the day. Like I say, there were very few people that held on to it. Now I know like that area of North Carolina really kind of moved to uh use technology not just in that but in many things, like the way their hams are produced and stuff like that.
+
+[19:45] And I was just wondering, I guess luckily that never uh reached over. You uh you uh like Kentucky ham? Oh yeah, yeah. I like country ham, you know. Yeah, you like uh you like newsoms?
+
+[19:55] Uh don't know newsoms. Um who do you like over there? Broadbent. Oh, I like broadband, they're good. Yeah, broadband.
+
+[20:00] What about Finchville? You like Finchville? Finchville, and uh the you got tin uh in Tennessee, you got um uh and I can't think of name but uh I'm not sure if that's um Smith not Smithfield, that's a different that's another product. I can't remember it, but it uh down in Tennessee is a great place for hang country ham like that. But Broadbent, the where I'm from, yeah, is big.
+
+[20:24] Yeah, nice. All righty. So what is your name? Richard Dunn. Richard Dunn.
+
+[20:27] Richard Dunn. Well, thank you so much. Yes, sir. Thank you for letting me talk to you a little bit here. And yeah, if you ever need some advice about smoking or pit pit barbecuing, I I do it all.
+
+[20:36] I do uh salmon was one of my favorites. People love smoked salmon. I it only takes about four hours to do that one. Brisket shoulders takes a lot longer, you know, twelve, fifteen. Sometimes even if you get a full shoulder with the the butt and the picnic together, it takes about twenty-four hours.
+
+[20:53] Oh, nice. So I you know, I take my time, it's slow and slow. Keep it between one eighty and two twenty. Nice, nice, beautiful. Well, it does really well.
+
+[21:00] Enjoy the enjoy the store. Oh, I am, I am. Y'all take care, and great to have you around. All right, thank you so much. There we go.
+
+[21:07] All right, so what's the difference? We got a call? No, that was a different kind of call right there. So uh what are you all doing? Let's see, bag cost says no mushroom is under vac.
+
+[21:16] Is this only for botulism? Okay for cook, but not for hold? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right.
+
+[21:22] So you would the problem with uh mushrooms in a bag is is it's fine. Is it mu look? Mushrooms are like the classic gonna give you poisoning botulism poisoning. It's the classic because they're typically if you're gonna can mushrooms, let's say, or or jar them, you're gonna do them at a relatively um it's not gonna be high acid, it's gonna be low acid product, right? Because do you like your do you like like high acid mushrooms?
+
+[21:45] Do you like I like pickled mushrooms actually, like really highly vinegar? I like them. But like a lot of times people can it, they want it to taste more like a mushroom mushroom. And so those things you have to can them pretty hard to make sure you're killing all the you ready for it, Stas? S Yeah, so you gotta kill all the spores on it.
+
+[22:01] And so like that's that's really what the problem is. And and when you do a vacuum bag, you're never gonna do that. So uh yeah, but it's not unsafe. It's just safe to treat it like it's been preserved. If you keep it in the fridge and you eat it within a reasonable amount of time, it's fine.
+
+[22:16] I will say this. I love cooking mushrooms in a bag because mushrooms are like sponges, and when you put it in a vacuum bag, you can inject the mushrooms with it with like a boat ton of flavor, and then when you do like you like low tip it for a little while in the bag, you pull them out. Oh my god, I'm taking on that guy. There it is. Pull them out, and you uh hit them with the uh you hit them in the pan and they still retain some of that flavor, even though a lot of the actual juice comes off.
+
+[22:41] So you can infuse mushrooms with a good bit of flavor. He's asking if he can ISI mushroom infuse them with vinegar too. Probably. He's also typing with his thumbs on the floor. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:52] If it's gonna be high in vinegar, but you could ISI. The problem with ISI infusion is uh, you know, go on Amazon and look on the section on IS uh on uh vacuum infusion in liquid intelligence because I believe that's in the look inside. And um the problem with uh with infusing in uh that kind of infusion is that the uh the ECs are really good when you want to get flavor out of something, but when you want to put flavor into something, you have to worry that when you're depressurizing, you're not pulling the stuff out. So we actually would have to stick the mushrooms in a bag with the flavor, shove that into the EC with liquid around it, and then inject the pressure in, and usually I have to do it twice. So it yes, it can be done, but for the technique to really get it done right, look at the look on the look inside in Amazon on the liquid intelligence, and you could you can see a full set of pictures to figure out how to do it.
+
+[23:39] I I I do it for the uh cute the cucumber mattini. But uh that's a new accent. What is that one? I don't know. That was kind of maltini.
+
+[23:48] I don't know if you know what that is. It's someone who enjoys what they're doing. They think it's very classy, the maltini. Ready? Yeah, sure.
+
+[23:54] What do you got? At Ryan S. Barnett says, could I use cal mexicana in place of lye for lye soaked eggs? No. Uh the so cal it is uh, you know, what is used for nix normalization, uh calcium hydroxide, and it you cannot get a high enough pH with that to do the lye eggs.
+
+[24:16] What they use is calcium oxide, uh, which is a much uh much higher strength base. You might be able to do uh you might be able to do the uh Harold McGee bake out of the baking soda to get a much more, you know what I mean, where you bake out the baking soda, you turn it from bicarbonate to sodium carbonate. That might be enough, but I'm not sure. I've only ever used straight lye. So but that what you're looking for is a certain pH.
+
+[24:41] So we published the recipe online, didn't we at one point somewhere in cooking issues somewhere on cooking issues backlog so if you I mean it would be possible to look up the molarity we used and then and then look up what the what the pH of that molarity of lie would be and to mimic that with um with c calcium uh carbonate not bicarbonate so I say calcium sodium carbonate not not or probably calcium oxide I think isn't it calcium oxide they use not calcium hydroxide I had to look it up I'm doing it off the top of my head but cal is not very soluble and can is never gonna reach the pH of the stuff that we were doing the lye eggs in is enough to like not want to dip your hands into. Whereas I'll put my hands into a container of Nixdamal anytime. Oh yeah and he wants to know what ratio to H2O for quail eggs. Where for what? For what technique I think he was at your moped thing.
+
+[25:32] I didn't use quail eggs at MoFAD. Then I have no idea. What do we what do quail eggs? What ratio do you have to do that? I got some quail eggs at I got quail eggs at home what should I do with them?
+
+[25:43] Oh what do you want to do with them? I don't know. They're like quail eggs are good. A dozen quail eggs in my case quail eggs are good like raw over like uh soba. That makes sense.
+
+[25:52] Or like uh I also they're fun like hard boiled hard boiled quail eggs or you could do like a like it's hard to the problem with quail eggs is that if you want to do like a fun soft boil thing they're really hard to peel because the membrane around the white is really tough. So what I do is I do I I have one of those little like cigar chopping quail egg cutters because I'm very fancy. As Thaz likes to point out I'm a very fancy man. And so, like, I have it. But what the trick with it is is you have to take the shell off of both sides, not one.
+
+[26:21] And then you take your pinky and boop boop right through it and knock it out. I'm not sure. I didn't use quail eggs at the thing. I gotta figure out what uh what what you're talking about. I I did Hamine eggs.
+
+[26:28] Right. Oh, so you could do how do you? We're doing cooking issues. You won't remember me, but uh FCI graduate. Oh, yeah?
+
+[26:41] 2011. Oh, nice, beautiful. How are you doing? Well, yourself. Doing well.
+
+[26:44] So you like you have a restaurant here? Actually, I have a catering business out here. Yeah, nice. Right down the street, actually on the same road. Oh, beautiful.
+
+[26:51] Uh festive food caterers. Festive food caterers. So you're excited about the bass pro shops? You know what? It's been a long time coming.
+
+[26:57] I've lived here 33 years, and for the last 20 years, this was nothing but, you know, broken down, abandoned houses, and to have this here, it's amazing. I mean I haven't seen this many cars in this neighborhood in probably about 20, 25 years. Usually when you get four foot July, you'll get this many cars parked so they could see the fireworks. Other than that, it would have been a just a lot, empty lot. This is exciting.
+
+[27:20] I mean, I drive past here a lot and you see there's nothing. There's nothing. There was nothing here. I mean, it's it's so exciting. You know, living here 33 years and seeing it develop from what it was to what it became to what it is.
+
+[27:31] Now it's amazing. So you think it's gonna help in general, like bring us, is that gonna be good for business for restaurants or it definitely is. You know, I mean it's uh they actually called me for a couple of catering events. Uh Starbucks called me for one catering event. So you know what?
+
+[27:44] Before, who was I gonna cater to this empty lot? There was no one here. Right. So you know what? I mean, I might not get all the catering events, but at least I'm one of the ones that are getting the events because they're you know they're noticing that we're out here.
+
+[27:55] And uh I'm loving it. I'm glad you're out here. Oh, yeah. Well, well, we know we were like uh we saw the Bass Pros going up. We love Bass Pro, so we're coming to the opening.
+
+[28:03] Where were you? Are you in New York? Are you out here? No, New York. That's awesome.
+
+[28:06] Yeah, coming up from New York City. So we do our we do a radio show now called uh cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. It's an extension of the blog that we used to do at FCI. Awesome. Yeah.
+
+[28:16] So my God, that's amazing. That's awesome. So give us the name of your catering place again. Festive Food Caterers. Nice.
+
+[28:22] Out of Bridgeport, right near the Bass Pro shops. So you know, when you come to Bass Pro, and if you're gonna have like a party or a tailgate or something, you need someone to come cater it, maybe. There you go. I already have a card with me. Nice.
+
+[28:33] There you go. Thank you, Chef. Thank you. And it's always a pleasure to see you all here. Oh, nice.
+
+[28:40] You're one of them. Oh, well, thank you very much. Thank you. Take care, guys. All right, bye bye.
+
+[28:45] Take care, Robby. So quail eggs. So you if you want to do a Hamin egg, maybe let's maybe they want to do Haminegg. Hamineg are like where you cook uh I've never done a Hamin quail egg. Anyway, Hamin eggs, for those of you that don't know, is uh if you cook an egg for a long, long time, the egg egg whites are more alkaline than most things that we eat.
+
+[29:02] And because uh alkalinity uh you know uh accelerates my yard reaction or like it allows my reaction to happen at lower temperatures, you can get brown toasty tasting eggs that are um that are delicious just by pressure cooking them. So uh I would say for a quail egg, because you're trying to do uh uh the Hamin thing, you would cook it as long as you would a chicken egg, which would mean about an hour. So I would put them in water, let them come up to temperature for you know uh uh to simmer so they don't get broken, put pressure on it for about uh 45 minutes to an hour, and then let the pressure come down naturally. Do not uh push it down. Anyway, all right, so uh we got any more questions?
+
+[29:42] Stas is trying to look up the questions on my phone. But the problem is my phone is also our connection to the outside world. It's not doing anything at all. Oh, do we lose the connection on our computer for questions? Oh no, we're good.
+
+[29:53] Alright, okay. So I'll just start yammering about other stuff at the at the Bass Pro. So, yeah, so they're saying that the big seller this year. Favorite Searsol camping application from Joel's Doob Stow. Oh.
+
+[29:58] No, I'm kidding. Um, it depends on what you're doing when you're camping, kind of how you're how you're rolling. So I, you know, I did uh I brought uh flour out with me, and so I was doing um we're doing pizzas uh and I really enjoyed being able to finish the top of the pizza off with uh searzole. Um also I had good luck with fish. Also, I was out on a river.
+
+[30:30] I had really good luck like doing like because like let's say you're you're you're uh have a camp and you're camping there for a couple of days, but then you want to go out and almost like kind of cook like picnic style, like on a river, you can bring like the Sears all with you. We did like um grilled cheese and and things like that. So that you know is the stuff we kind of had um we had a lot of good luck with. But when you're cooking over a campfire, it's a lot of times useful to have a directed small thing of flame that you can just hit. So it just it's something that comes up a lot when you're cooking over the campfire.
+
+[30:59] So for instance, like I was cooking pancakes. I think I talked about this on the show once, but I was cooking pancakes and the pan was too hot over the fire, and so they were cooking too fast on the one side. So I'd use the Searsol to rapid set the top of the pancake so I could flip it without ruining it. So, you know, stuff like that. It's good for it's good for stuff like that.
+
+[31:18] At nothing mark asks, what's the best wood for smoking beef? Jeez, I don't know. Like uh, I you know, like there's a huge school of thought saying that it that as long as you're not using a wood that doesn't have a high resin content, so for instance, like, you know, uh, well, any resinous wood, that you're gonna be basically okay. And so like you can't really as tell the difference between I don't know whether I believe this, but you can't really tell the difference between uh because I've never done the test between like a hickory wood, let's say, and a fruit wood like an apple wood. But then there are woods that definitely have their own uh flavor.
+
+[31:50] So if you're using a there's a big difference between using chips to make smoke and actually coals. I think once you're making something into a coal, then I don't think it's gonna be adding a lot of flavor on its own. But the chips clearly have different aromas. I don't really know. Depends on what you like.
+
+[32:05] Like what do you like? Do you like styles? What do you think? I'm surprised to hear that that guy said fruit tree wood. Well, fruit no, he's he's burning wood down to coals and using it.
+
+[32:13] He's not like using chips and smoking them. He's doing like coals that are providing smoke but also heat. So that's different. So I think that's kind of a fundamental like difference. Like when you if you're just using like uh dust or chips and smoldering them, it's a very different thing in terms of the quality of the s smoke or what it's what the smoke's imparting, as opposed to like what what I would call like clear coal off of that.
+
+[32:38] So for something like clear coal, like people like hickory, because hickory has a fantastically high uh uh fuel value per pound. Like it just is like a very uh has a very high um it's it's a good fuel. It's also good wood and a delicious nut. Right. Elliot Papanow wants to know, would you make trail mix over the fire?
+
+[33:01] You mean like when you say trail mix, what do you mean by trail mix? Like what do you think? Are you really thinking Chex mix? Because that you could I like Chex Mix is some straight up delicious stuff. Yeah.
+
+[33:13] Jack, what are your thoughts on Chex Mix? Oh, yeah, I love it. You love Checks mixed. I love Chex Mix, yeah. Well, that needs to come back.
+
+[33:19] I feel like it's gone somewhere. I haven't had it in so much. Muddy button. What's what's it? Muddy Buddy is crazy.
+
+[33:24] What's muddy buddy? It's like just chicks mix with like a shit ton of chocolate on it. Chocolate, peanut butter and white that powdered sugar. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you buy Chex Mix and then you dump melted chocolate.
+
+[33:37] No, no, no, no, it comes like that. No, you know, you make it. Wait, what? They sell it. They sell it.
+
+[33:43] They sell it made like this. Well, Nastasia's mom tastes. Wait, Muddy Buddy Chex Mix was like a homemade thing before it was a prepackaged thing. Oh yeah. Okay.
+
+[33:51] So just wanting to describe the tech system. Did your mom make the checks mix? No, my friend's moms did. You like melt chocolate into the checks. And then checks mix, you got the the mix, the salt, the butter.
+
+[34:05] Straight checks, not check mix. Okay. Just into checks. Because checks mixed. Checks plus stuff and salt and butter.
+
+[34:11] Which is money. Check in the banks. And I think it's chocolate and um peanut butter. Butter and like uh peanut checks do you enjoy for this operation. I don't care, I guess.
+
+[34:19] Rice. Well, rice checks. I was thinking you're gonna say rice. Now are you a believer in the cereal crisp? Do you remember Chris Bex?
+
+[34:26] Oh, I used to eat that. Yeah, so it looks kind of like imagine if checks turned into an elongated stop sign and one half was rice and the other half was corn. Yeah. Crisp cr crispx. I used to like this.
+
+[34:38] I used to like it. Yeah, it's good. I like Chris Bex. Alright, so we should do one more question and then wrap up in five minutes. All right, all right, all right.
+
+[34:44] Give me some more questions then. Uh at Rem is buzzin'. If you co if you quick agar clarified juice and you massage the sack too hard, any way of rescuing juice with agar in any way of recipe juice with agar in the eye. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure that they so what we're talking about here is with quick agar clarification.
+
+[35:05] Uh you you put it through like a a like a a filter, like a a linen napkin or like a very fine gray. I I even hate I hate the words coming out of my mouth, cheesecloth, because I know that someone's gonna go buy that rancid stuff big whole rancid stuff that they sell. Yeah, it's useless. I don't even think that stuff's holes are small enough to keep freaking flies out. I think that it's a fundamentally useless nonsense piece of crap.
+
+[35:26] I don't know why they sell it. I don't know what it's good for. I think it like I think it's good just for making me angry and for nothing else. How many people's food in the world over the years have been ruined by buying that crap that they think is cheesecloth but is not? Cancer.
+
+[35:42] I don't know, it's not even good for gauze because it's not sterilized, it's useless. It's without use. It makes me angry. I don't know if you can tell that. It's good for crafting.
+
+[35:51] For what? Ghosts. Uh yeah. Um like mummy? Yeah.
+
+[35:56] Like mummies? Okay. All right, all right. Rehabilitated. If it but it should say fake mummy fabric on it.
+
+[36:04] And nothing else. So, anyways, so uh if you have massage, so what you do is is you make an uh like an agar, uh you make an agar, set agar gel, uh two two up 0.2 percent two grams per liter, not 20. I've had people do that a million times. You break it up into a into a curd, you put it into what we call the sack, and then you get the clear juice out. But what you have to do with your hands is hear that?
+
+[36:25] Can you hear that? No, not not on this mic. I'm massaging the sack. And so what it is is is you have to gently, ever so gently and gingerly hold the sack and massage the sack to clear the pores such that the clear liquid can drip out. But if you squeeze the sack, you squeeze it, what's gonna happen is you're going to extrude the agar through the sack, and then not only do you have a damaged sack, which nobody enjoys, but you have cloudy juice, which also nobody enjoys.
+
+[36:57] Uh now the question that we have here is can you can you somehow re-filter the agar out of the cloudy sack? And I gotta say, I don't know. Like uh you could try putting it through a straight coffee filter at that point, but I have a feeling that you might be in trouble. What you can do is just let it settle for a couple of hours and maybe rack the stuff off the top. But you might you might be, as my good friends say, S O L.
+
+[37:23] That's right. Yeah. And I have a or you can wait a couple of months and buy one of our centrifuges, buy one of our centrifuges, then it will be clear. There you go. Right?
+
+[37:31] Yeah. Yeah. So uh at Mr. Chris Wright says, Do you know anyone who might be interested in a free centrifuge? The unit has been displaying a lid error and needs some work.
+
+[37:41] What kind of centrifuges is this? No explanation. But if anybody wants to know, just tweet him at Mr. Chris Wright. That's W-R-I-G-H-T.
+
+[37:50] Mr. like M R. Like M R, yeah. Cool. Yeah.
+
+[37:53] Uh I mean look, Chris, don't give up on your centrifuge. Like, let me know the what are you what were you singing? What song were you? With the Starsky and Hutch. Oh, how does it go?
+
+[38:04] I don't know. Is it is never give up part of the lyrics? Don't give up. Don't give up? Yeah.
+
+[38:09] See, because I was having I was Rick rolling myself in my head when I was saying never gonna give, yeah, never gonna give you up, because that's what I've got centrifuge. Rick rolling yourself in your head. Yeah, so the the video is playing in my head right now. As opposed to the normally what's playing in my head is is the elves jumping into the wood chippers. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:27] So I think I'm tuning into my own head and seeing the elves jumping into the wood chipper over and over again, and instead I tune into my head and then Rick Astley is there. Which is I mean worst. Worst. Although you know who likes Rick Astley? Booker, my son Booker.
+
+[38:40] Really? Because his his girlfriend, friend who is a girl who maybe someday will be his girlfriend, likes Rick Astley for some like unknown reason. Strange. I mean, his voice is not bad. Rick Asley's voice is not bad.
+
+[38:53] No. Anyway, so back, but I gotta finish this before we go. Do we have any more questions? No, we should go in and interview some people, which we could. Alright, hold on.
+
+[38:59] Before we sign off live though, uh, so they have this thing called an oilless fryer. Okay. We already talked about this a little bit, but I'm gonna go investigate. Should we buy one of these things? Ooh.
+
+[39:10] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It's not expensive, it's on sale. Now would be the time, right? Now would be the time.
+
+[39:15] What? And they have Patrick at Heritage. By the way, there's still time. Let's get to order a Heritage Turkey. Yeah.
+
+[39:20] There is still time. From from Heritage Meats. And I've cooked them uh many times. They're good. I mean, like we should just get like a butterball.
+
+[39:28] Oh, another thing for Bass Pro Shops before you mention, yeah, do it with a crap. I'm not saying that no offense to the Butterball Corporation. No offense. Uh another thing I'll say is they do carry outdoor deep fryers here, made by a company that I've heard is very good called Cajun. Uh like Cajun, something.
+
+[39:42] Oh my god, it's out of my head. But it is in fact a semi-professional deep fryer with a cold zone. And it's meant to hook up to a propane tank, and it's meant to live outside. So anyone who's interested in the idea of having a fryer outdoors, as I and now have had for several months and can endorse now is a good idea. They sell them here and they have a pop-down lid on them that covers them up so that the oil gets covered up.
+
+[40:04] So give it a try. Come on down a bridge. And I hear it's a good company. Come down, come down, uh Bassbro shops, and uh we'll catch you later on. Cooking issues.
+
+[40:12] Woo!
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. I am Patrick Martins, host of the main course. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agencies. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Israel's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network at Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn for the Thanksgiving Day episode, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh along with my usual uh, you know, crew here of Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hi, Sus.
+
+[0:53] Hi. And uh Jackie Molecules, Jack Eansley in the booth. Hey there. And Rebecca on the live tweet machine. We have via phone Chris Young from Chef Steps, who has a big thing to announce.
+
+[1:03] And Patrick Martins, uh founder of our great network and of Heritage Meets, uh, who's going to talk a little bit about turkeys in a minute. But Chris, thanks for calling in. Uh, what do you got for us? What's going on with the Chef Steps world? By the way, for those of you that don't know.
+
+[1:16] I think we're announcing today that Chef Steps has had a secret. We've been uh we've been working on better SUBI tools for a couple of years now, and so we're announcing Jewel today. Nice. Okay, so for the one person who might have found our broadcast somehow who doesn't know what Chef Steps is, it's very easy to find out. The simplest thing to do is to just go online to Chef Steps.com and register, and it's uh uh, you know, you'll get like a bunch of tips, not only on modernist stuff, but on the kind of the new analytical way of of thinking about cooking in general, whether they're using new techniques or not.
+
+[1:50] It's a very analytical mindset, which of course I appreciate. And aside from their awesome videos and uh tips and whatnot, you'll find a forum, which is very uh which is very helpful for cooks all over the world. Is this accurate or inaccurate? Uh I'd say that's pretty accurate. And we're also taking questions on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and other social networks that I don't even know about yet.
+
+[2:11] Nice. Alright, now so Jewel, by the way, it's not spelled Jewel as in the Alaskan singer. Sorry, Patrick, it's not the Alaskan singer. Yeah. But uh pointing, I know.
+
+[2:23] Yeah. Jewel as in uh as as in the unit of uh energy. Uh and uh just goes to show that if uh you were wondering whether Chris Young and the Chef Stev's people are metricized, whether they are metric folk, I think you now have your answer because of the unit of measure that they are choosing to uh to use there, right? You you ever have any uh any thoughts on going uh Imperial with the naming of the unit thing or no? You want something that's vaguely female sounding, maybe?
+
+[2:53] I don't know. What do you think? What's the what's the origin of Joule? Uh the origin of Joule is that uh you know, Sous vide's really about adding a measured amount of heat uh to your recipe so you don't over or undercook it. So it seemed appropriate to name our nice compact little unit after what Sue's really about, which is heat.
+
+[3:11] That's that there you go. Now uh describe now uh uh m most everybody here or who's listening to to us now knows what an immersion circulator is. It's uh but for those like who don't, it's it's a a device uh of any sort really that both circulates water, so uh or it doesn't have to be water, but circulates a liquid. So in this case, uh static water baths like the Sous Vide Supreme would not count as a circulator. Uh and also uh has a heater and sometimes chilling, although very few of us have one device, so that you can very accurately maintain a temperature in said liquid.
+
+[3:48] And it ranks right up there. It's like the it's the it's the newest, most different kind of most important cooking innovation since probably refrigeration, is my guess. Um what do you think, Chris? Yes or no? The accurate control of temperature in general, the most important thing since refrigeration, I would bet.
+
+[4:06] Well, you know, I I really think uh Sous vide's the first uh real cooking technology that's likely to really change the mainstream kitchen since the microwave, which is like really World War II technology. So it's time we do something different. I think it's bigger than the microwave, though. In other words, in terms of its final impact, I think bigger than the microwave. I mean, not maybe not as gonna be as ubiquitous as the microwave, but in terms of like for instance, when your microwave breaks, you're like, I gotta get around to buying one sometime, right?
+
+[4:33] But it doesn't really change what you can do in the kitchen. You're just like, ah, now I gotta dirty a pot when I melt butter. Am I right? Yeah, I mean the microwave uh is is a tool that's all about convenience. Sous vide's is gonna give you just quality and and and creativity.
+
+[4:46] You can't get any other way. Right, okay. So now we're all familiar with what an immersion circulator is. Now, for again, for the three people that don't already know this saga, uh, I'll give you the saga. So this is originally a piece of laboratory equipment.
+
+[4:58] We're talking now prior to about 2004. This is a piece of uh or three. It's primarily with the exception of very few high-end chefs uh around the world, scattered around the world. It is a piece of laboratory equipment. It costs roughly we're talking only 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, they cost 2,000 bucks.
+
+[5:16] That's what they cost. Uh and not a lot of chefs have them. Uh only like uh very top-flight uh people who are also interested in modern techniques. Right around 2004, five, you see a price drop down to about a thousand dollars, where it stays roughly within two hundred dollars of that until roughly three years ago, when uh I think it was Nomiku actually uh broke the price barrier down below 500, and it's been driven down steadily since with various levels of robustness and quality in the equipment, uh, along with also a uh a robust DIY market of people building their own now. Uh so it's driven down to the sub-200 or in the 200 between 150 and 200 range, you can get a circulator that's going to uh work.
+
+[5:58] Now, I think a lot of these like low price circulators have kind of uh crushed a lot of the DIY spirit, except for those people who've always just want to build their own stuff. These are the same people that in the 70s would have been buying those Radio Shack kits to make radios that aren't nearly as good as the radios you can buy for nickel. But uh there will always be those people out there, and by the way, God bless those people. Polar catalog people. Yeah, I'm I'm one of those people.
+
+[6:19] Anyway, so why don't you, Chris, explain where the jewel fits into to this to the to the range of uh immersion circulators that's already out there? Yeah, well, so you know, I I'd say we're we're comparable in terms of uh of cost, and uh we're we're obviously giving our community a big discount today um for pre-orders, and because they got us to this point. But you know, the there was a bunch of things that we've found over the last few years that the Sue Beat experience really isn't as as great as we'd like it to be. At the end of the day, everything else out there is still really just laboratory equipment that's been rescanned, and uh it tends to make it more of a gadget than an actual uh cooking tool. And as a chef, you know, I take a lot of pride in my tools.
+
+[7:02] I like them to be reliable, I like them to be uh uh useful, I like them to be convenient. So we really sat down to rethink both the hardware but also the user experience. So, you know, on the hardware side, we shrunk it down where, you know, when we started, most of the stuff weighed around nine pounds, and and ours got all the way down to a pound and a quarter. Um, you know, we wanted it to be small enough that you could fit it in your top drawer, which if your top drawer is anything like mine, it's pretty crowded. So, you know, we we shrunk the diameter down by like a factor of four or five over the competition.
+
+[7:37] So it's it's only an inch and three quarters in diameter, and it's about 11 inches tall. So it's this really compact unit. Yeah, for those of you that haven't seen it, it it uh it visually references devices for other uses if you get my drift. It's that sort of general shape and size. Is that what we'd say it's accurate?
+
+[7:55] Yeah. You you you mean a rolling pen. Yeah, that's what I mean. Um so you know, there's a bunch of things there where we wanted it to be convenient, but we also wanted it to be really durable and reliable. It's gonna last you years.
+
+[8:07] So all of the all of the parts that are metal we forged and machined out of out of uh uh surgical grade stainless steel. We put a neodynium rare earth magnet in the bottom so that if you're using like a cast iron or a uh an induction ready pot, rather than sort of fiddling around with a big bulky clamp, you know, you just set it down and it grabs onto the pot with six pounds of force. Um it's hard to describe how great that experience is, but you know, we use these all day in our kitchen, and and that's really wonderful. But I think the the thing that are is certainly going to be uh I think uh it's been described as bold already on the uh internet today, was we actually took the controls off the circulator and put them into your phone. We put them into iPhones, tablets, Android phones.
+
+[8:54] Uh we're gonna put it into things like watches, where, you know, you can easily set the temperature. In fact, we made that unbelievably simple and intuitive and quite a bit faster than buttons on the device. But we were trying to solve a problem that we've found over and over after trying to teach Sue Beat cooking for, gosh, I guess I've been teaching it for about a decade, but really the last three or so years with Chef's tests. When which when somebody gets into Sue Bead and is new, they don't really know where to start. You know, what temperature are they going to like?
+
+[9:26] You know, how do they prefer their steak? We tend to think in terms of rare and medium rare and medium well. But those are really imprecise words that mean different things to different people. So we invented something that we call visual doneess, where we actually show short film loops in our app of what you're going to get and how to get there so that you don't have to translate your preferences as a cook into engineering parameters. You can basically express your desires in a very human way and say, well, that looks like exactly what I want.
+
+[9:57] And the circulator, Joule is going to do whatever is necessary to get you that outcome. So that's I I think streamlining the app, uh connecting it to mobile devices and leveraging the power that of what we can do in the phone and in the cloud really has the opportunity to start to change the kitchen and put humans back at the center of the cooking experience. Now, now, okay, so let's let's just hash this out for a sec. I'm an old phogie, right? Yep.
+
+[10:23] And actually, you agree with me. You hate membrane switches like I hate membrane switches, right? Yep. Yeah. We're both haters of the membrane switch.
+
+[10:30] That makes you guys old old poesies. Well, because everything's moving that way. But uh I prefer actual I'm also an analog control guy, so like I detest ovens with membrane switches where you have to sit there and like hold your finger on a membrane switch to set a number of friends. For instance, I have an oven that every freaking time I turn it on, it comes on at 350, and yet uh like 90 times out of a hundred, I'm using it as a warming oven for stuff that's coming off, and so I'm punching it down to 170 instantly. This is a Fahrenheit, sorry, Chris.
+
+[10:59] But the uh but you know what I'm saying? It's like I detest that whole strategy of control. So I I also makes me nervous to take controls complete and indicators completely off of the machine. But uh what has your reaction been so far with your beta people on this? Are they mostly not old folies?
+
+[11:16] You know, it was I think uh even when we first started really ex uh exploring taking the controls off the device. It was a you know, it was certainly a controversial discussion even within Chef Steps. But the more we started testing it, the more we started realizing what we were able to deliver in terms of the user experience on an app, uh, the more confident we got. And the funny thing is we kind of expected uh a lot of people when we just sort of gave it to them and said, hey, turn this on and use it, you know, while we kind of stand around and watch them. We kind of expected a lot of people to ask, you know, where are the controls, where's the on button?
+
+[11:51] And like it it got asked, but but very quickly, they didn't care. And it just was very natural. And in terms of how quickly they figured out how to use it and what it did and the way they discovered um some of the benefits, we've become really convinced that uh people are gonna love it. Um it it you know, it is gonna be a bit different, but this is the direction things are going, and and somebody's really got to be first um to to take this plunge, and that's gonna be us. Now it's it's Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, correct?
+
+[12:19] It is both Bluetooth and Wi-Fi because there's pros and cons to both. Um we're able to deliver a much more reliable, seamless pairing experience uh with Bluetooth. You just need to bring your phone near to it, and we use proximity to basically know what you're trying to pair with and and judge which phones uh controlling the device. Um but if you want to be out at the store, if you want to remotely uh uh turn the device on before you come home, if you want to get a notification of that your waters reach temperature um or your food is done while you're out in the yard playing with your kids, Wi-Fi is much better for that. So we included both because we don't think the user actually cares about the technology.
+
+[13:01] All they really care about is the experience working flawlessly and seamlessly. Right. Now, is there any sort of like nod to old people like me? Like, is there any visual representation from across the kitchen that you've reached temperature, or do you have to just have your phone up? Is that do I have to just explain?
+
+[13:17] No, uh uh you do need a way of indicating that it's on, that it's working, that that it's cooking away, and and that's where we we have we do have an indicator LED um that very simply sort of breathes to let you know that it's it's cooking, and at a glance you can tell that it's at the temperature and that everything's fine. Oh, thank God. I'm a mortar and pestle guy. I only use a mortar and pencil. That's old school.
+
+[13:38] Well, luckily for you, you can use it. But you can use this as a pestle. You know, with solid stainless steel parts, I'm not gonna stop you from using Joule as the uh pestle. Yeah, yeah. And it's got a little uh indent in the top so you can put your thumb on it and to get good leverage while you use the bottom end as a pestle.
+
+[13:56] So it's it's sturdy. Oh yeah. It's it's it's it's unbelievably solid. Um, and and that was one of the real goals that that it's in fact it's totally sealed. Um I've at least on two occasions uh over my career dropped an immersion circulator into a water bath, both times at a very inconvenient time since I had to serve like a uh dinner uh the little most recently at a wedding party.
+
+[14:14] Um and you shorted it out. So, you know, accidents are gonna happen. The you know, the kitchen is covered in goo. So we entirely sealed the jewel up so that it if it falls into the water, nothing bad's going to happen. It's just gonna keep working.
+
+[14:33] Um and that was actually a really big engineering challenge because that meant we had to get all of the waste heat into the water rather than having a way to ventilate it into the air. Um so that that was one of the real big challenges, but it ultimately actually made us much more energy efficient when we achieved that, so that we actually preheat the water faster because all of the waste heat is also going into the water. Right. Now uh now you don't recommend it, I assume, but you could make a hot tub with this. Sorry, I didn't I didn't say that.
+
+[15:01] I said you don't you don't recommend it, but you could like like there's no shock ability here. It's like is it med grade isolation? Can I use this for a hot tub heater if I wanted to? Uh you absolutely could. Um you know, those those are our our our certification requirements and and just good engineering requirements.
+
+[15:17] Um we built the thing to be uh safe, durable, and and basically uh a a professional grade tool. Now here's the here's the last one because I know that like you can't possibly because I don't know that anyone makes plugs for this, but if the plug could be certified, could you certify it for dishwasher? Um yeah, I don't know anybody that makes plugs with it. Uh if you threw it in the dishwasher, I don't think anything bad would happen. That's not a test I've done, but having been intimately involved in engineering this, y the the sanitation cycle, um uh you know uh I really don't think anything bad would happen.
+
+[15:51] I guess I'm gonna have to try that. I just don't think the uh any standard plug uh plug that I know of is certified to be immersed for that long in the Yeah, no, right now there's probably uh uh one of our liability uh lawyers listening to this radio show just completely like ripping their hair out, and I'll I'll hear about it later. That's what I'm for, yeah. Uh but you know, it's not gonna fail. Um and in fact, that was one of the other things is the way we engineered the the heater, there's no nooks and crannies.
+
+[16:18] Um you don't you're not gonna need to put it in the dishwasher to wipe it clean because there's nowhere for goo to stick. So you're saying nook and cranny advantage for a Thomas's English muffin, but not so much for a circulator? Uh yeah. Yeah. Uh and uh cleaning, I I actually saw uh the uh uh one of the beta units uh last week, and you can uh uh unscrew the bottom that Patrick is going to use for uh a pestle.
+
+[16:42] By the way, uh clockwise only as you're pestling, or you'll unscrew the base, by the way, right? I mean uh the the but will you undo it and you can pull the uh the uh impeller out, similar to like an aquarium pump motor, right? Yep, and and then the inside of the heater is just a seamless uh stainless steel polished tube. You can stick a sponge in there and just wipe the surface clean if anything were to scald onto the heater. All right, and uh take us through an 18-pound turkey process.
+
+[17:07] Uh uh, what's the breakdown? Uh uh we'll go through that in a sec. I'll leave we'll if Chris has time, I know he's like announcing everything, we'll keep him on. But let's just finish the the business here first. Like they uh wait, I had oh, and the part of the reason that you can sell it for a reasonable price is that you guys decided to go big.
+
+[17:21] You think you're gonna sell a lot of these things, right? Um, well, to do the things we wanted to do, you you really had to make a commitment to to mass production. I mean, there's parts that are ultrasonically welded, you're gonna start forging massive amounts of stainless steel. Um, you know, to make a real consumer product like that, you have to make a bet that that people are gonna want it um and that you're going to sell enough of them to justify, you know, your investments into robots and and and uh massive production tools. And by robot you don't mean that you're just buying a bunch of Roombas?
+
+[17:53] No, uh I mean this thing has been designed to be mostly assembled in a very automated way. And that's so that the thing's reliable. Um, you know, you you want everyone to have a great experience, and it turns out you're gonna get a better result if you let robots do most of the manufacturing. Nice. All right, and uh if we pre-order it now, when do we get it?
+
+[18:13] Uh we are shipping in May. Okay. And uh what's the uh what what do you uh what's the pre-order cost versus what you have to pay if you wait like a chump? So if you're already a Shaf Steps premium member, which uh is a nineteen dollar one-time fee, and I think a lot of people on on your show probably are, they're gonna pay $180 between today and January 15th. To anybody else, it's $199, and we include uh uh Chef Steps premium in there.
+
+[18:38] And again, like you don't ever pay again, it's once. Um and then uh after that, retail price will be two ninety-nine. So that's a substantial discount, yeah. Uh yep. Uh you know, like we're building these for people in our community.
+
+[18:52] We want Chef Steps community members to to have a better cooking experience. So uh they're the people that got us to this point. We're gonna make sure we take care of them. All right, and uh, can you stick around even though you're announcing a lot, or do you have to run and do the next uh press thing in the zone? I am happy to stick around if there are questions about jewel or turkey or anything else related to the kitchen.
+
+[19:11] Um I'm I'm happy to commit. All right, let's do it. Uh we got Patrick Martins here, purveyor of heritage turkeys. Are you the largest heritage turkey purveyor in the country? Uh it depends how you define heritage, but of the true American poultry association poultry, yes.
+
+[19:26] So who is it that sells what you consider to be Trump Heritage turkeys that is bigger? Well, I wouldn't say who, but they are various degrees of heritage. And actually, we're looking forward to the USDA enforcing breed claims. Best smartest people were the Berkshire people. A lot of cow people do it too.
+
+[19:43] They just breed in certain physical traits that make it immediately recognizable, like a six-spot of Berkshire, six white spots on the tip of the feet, nose and tail. That certifies that it's a pure Berkshire. All right. Now I will tell you how I'm doing my turkey this year. And Chris, you see what you think on this.
+
+[19:59] Actually, I have a test right now. I bought a regular uh turkey leg. So, you know, I'm a big fan of uh of making the bird look like it's a whole bird because I'm an American, and anyone who doesn't make it look like a whole bird, somehow it's not very American. You you with me on this, Chris? Uh I'm with you.
+
+[20:15] Yeah, the guy's got to look like a bird. This is something that a French person can't possibly understand. Norman Rockwell is an American, yeah. The Norman Rockwellan turkey. Yeah, it's gotta be it's like, and the other thing is is that uh, you know, you'd like it if all the different things are done at the at the right thing.
+
+[20:30] So the simplest way, in my estimation, to do it, the way I've been doing it, is I will uh well, the last time or two, is I will do a simple debone where I cut down the back, rip out the bones. I actually leave, I think, the leg bones in, and then inject uh turkey uh turkey stock brine into the breast meat and just kind of rub salt over it, and then drape it over a plug of very hot stuffing and then throw that in the oven at high temperature so it cooks from inside out. And frankly, that's only an additional like 45 minutes of work for the cook, and it cooks unbelievably fast because you're cooking it from both sides. Uh so that's kind of what I would recommend for anyone who's not gonna do what do you do you have any problems with that technique, Chris, for someone who's not gonna go through all the trouble of of low temping the whole turkey? Yeah, I mean, if you're if you're not gonna low temp it, that's a that's a great way to do it.
+
+[21:24] Right. It's better than like I've also had like in the old days, like when uh I had once where the turkey was bad, uh and I had to rush out, we didn't have the time, and so pre-heritage. This is a long time ago. This is like maybe in the 90s, like early 90s. And uh uh literally we were like, what are we gonna do?
+
+[21:41] I was like, I'll tell you what you're gonna do. You're gonna go buy a turkey, I'm gonna spatcock that sucker, break it open, cook it flat on a rack, and then kind of squeeze it back into bird shape for Thanksgiving. And you know what? It was not a bad, it was a good turkey. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:53] Because spreading the turkey out like that or heating it from both sides is already a big win in terms of time. Um this year, what I'm doing is I'm going to uh do the same thing. I'm gonna bone it uh on the back, then I'm going to rip, leaving the skin intact. I am going to rip the legs and thighs out of the bird. Uh, and I am then going to confide said skinless thighs and legs, low temp the breasts and skin like an Edgar suit kind of a thing, and then chill it all down, jam the confied legs and thighs back into the bird casing, drape that sucker over the plug of stuffing, and then I think I'm gonna do I'm gonna try to do two.
+
+[22:34] I'm gonna try to do one in the tandoor for finishing and one in a deep fryer. What do you think, Chris? You think it's is a good plan? Uh it's a good plan. I can't help but just listen to you and think you would have made uh a phenomenal torturer in in in the in the uh uh mid uh medieval era.
+
+[22:50] Yeah, well, uh possibly. But I'm going to rip the bird apart, I'm going to rip the legs off, cook them at a low temperature. Um you take a lot of glee in that, but that sounds like a good plan. Well, whenever I'm doing live demos, which I haven't done a live demo of uh of like breaking down poultry in a long time, but back when I I used to teach um at the FCI, and I think one of the things I used to have to do is I forget what I would, but one of the demos that I would always have to do for the students is I'd be breaking chickens down. I think showing them how to go all the way boneless, like you know, break it down.
+
+[23:19] Not Jacques Popin style, he has his own way. Anyway, people some people would always get discon a little disconcerted because when I'm demonstrating how to uh remove the thigh from the body, I always kind of indicate on my own body, if I don't have a chicken with me, kind of where the knife should go. And people are like, oh, oh. You know what I mean? I'm like, but yeah, it's like you know, it's an animal.
+
+[23:42] You're breaking it down, you know. Is there a difference in technique between hens and toms, like nine, ten-pound birds, you know, especially with the sous-vie machines? Oh, that's a good question. I've I've never cooked that small of a I don't think I've ever cooked that small of a bird. What do you think, Chris?
+
+[23:57] You ever gone very small on this on these things? Yeah, um, I actually that's probably about the size I'll be cooking. I'm gonna be uh cooking a 10-pound uh heritage turkey myself. And uh what I'll be doing, I'm I'm expecting it to be about five hours um in in the sous vide bath, and then I'll pull it out and uh and give it a couple more hours in my smoker. Are you bagging it or are you uh breaking it?
+
+[24:21] Um I'll probably bag it. Um I'm not gonna split it down. I'm I'm I'm gonna keep it whole and then I'll hang it from its legs so that the weight of the bird sort of stretches itself out while it's in my smoker. Are you gonna fill the cavity with anything while it's cooking just so that or like how are you gonna make up for the compression? Are you gonna do zip like a large zippy?
+
+[24:38] Like they make those big zippies. Nice. Now, what temperature are you going to cook it to? Uh I so you know, this is always the compromise because you know you're not just cooking for yourself, and I really don't want to, you know, hear complaints from the rest of the family. So I think I'm gonna end up at about 150 Fahrenheit.
+
+[25:12] What's that in Celsius? That's uh about what, 65. Yeah. USDA claims it has to be 165. So that's what I'm saying.
+
+[25:20] That's just wrong. That's just wrong. Yeah. I mean, it's all depends on time and temperature, but let's not get let's not get started. Let's not get started.
+
+[25:29] Yeah, we can go on a whole rant on this. Let's not let's not start. Let's not start with this. But uh it's you know, it's an interesting question. Uh the the temperature you you cook it to.
+
+[25:39] It is so it is so personal. But uh on turkey, I would much rather, if I was gonna choose one temperature, shoot for the minimum temperature that's not gonna piss people off on the dark meat rather than trying to hit the optimum temperature on the breast. I mean, yeah, that's a good choice. That's a good call. My answer to it is the second you cut into the meat and the juice runs clear.
+
+[26:01] Oh my god. You were you you are never allowed on that microphone again, Patrick. Never. Never cooks who cooks like that. Well, uh uh Nastasia comes from a long line of turkey overcookers, not you personally, right, Stas?
+
+[26:15] But what like how did like uh did you say in your household it was as soon as no more juices ran, that's when you knew the turkey was done? It's like right before the turkey catches on fire. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[26:30] You know what's interesting? I haven't spoken to Jeffrey Steingarden in a while, but I think he tried to do one once in a self-cleaning oven, but it couldn't get the interlock off. Oh I think. I don't know. I gotta that is not gonna end well.
+
+[26:42] No, you have to defeat the interlock before you hit self-clean. That's like, hey, listen, no one out there listening to us, don't go defeat the interlock on your self-cleaning oven. At least don't say that I told you to do it. Do you clean your pans in self-cleaning ovens? I'm so lazy that like when I get like an aluminum baking sheet, like the other day I did a bunch of uh whole uh fish, right?
+
+[27:04] And it had a bunch of drip-downs and then they got all burnt onto the baking sheet. I was like, the hell with it. I just cook the stuff in the self-cleaning oven. Am I too lazy or is that like okay? No, I I think that's being smart.
+
+[27:15] Yeah, right? Who likes cleaning crap off of those things? Not me. Don't do it. No, don't do it to your castle.
+
+[27:22] Do not do it to your cast iron, do not do it to your Teflon. Hey, Tim's got a question in the chat room for Chris. Uh he wants Chris to recommend the max capacity container that he would recommend. Oh, yeah, and give us the wadded heat watch on the jewel. Uh so uh for the jewel.
+
+[27:36] Yeah. I presume. Uh so uh, you know, with these things, it's always dependent on how well insulated your vessel is, but with a typical poorly insulated pot, I'd be very comfortable recommending up to 10 gallons, so almost 40 liters. If you're using a well-insulated vessel, like a uh like a Coleman cooler, um, then you're gonna get away with a lot more. I I you know I personally heated up 70 plus liters in a Coleman cooler with an even lower powered unit, so you're not gonna have any problems.
+
+[28:07] Um, you know, at some point, how big do you need to be? In terms of of actual power, uh, the rated heating power is uh is 1100 watts. And remember, over 99% of our power actually goes into the water, which is uh is unusual. The more important thing is like that's about 25% faster at preheating water than uh the competition. Right, just so everyone knows, like there are actually lower powered units now on the market, but for years the industry standard as like as developed by like you know, Philip Preston's original poly science models is 750 watts of heating, roughly 750 watts of heating power uh was the norm.
+
+[28:45] But the other important thing, and people don't think about this uh is how aggressive the PID programming is because you can make you can make something like laboratory style, which means zero overshoot allowed, or you can go aggressive, which is kind of better for cooks, and you'll get like a couple of tenths overshoot, but it'll quickly settle out on you. I assuming you went more aggressive, right? Uh yeah, we we absolutely teamed it, temp uh uh uh tuned it to be very, very aggressive. Yeah, which is better for cooks. I mean, don't let anyone tell you any different.
+
+[29:16] Anyone that says any different is just wrong. You can usually I'm very nice about things like this, but anyone who says anything differently other than other than you should go on the aggressive side and allow the couple of tents overshoot, they're just not correct. Uh yeah, no, it it it's it's a better use. I mean, most people, it's just how fast can I get this water preheated? And and we we set up to make it as fast as possible.
+
+[29:36] And our limiting factor is is ultimately down to to uh UL certification. Uh the power cord has to get absolutely huge once you go over 10 amps of power. Right. So that's why you're not gonna see uh any any real domestic circulator delivering more than about 1100 watts. Right, yeah.
+
+[29:55] You're allowed if you're allowed 1500 watts total draw on a plug for normal to do normal stuff. And that's why that's why hair drivers are the way AR, and that's why everything's related. Right? Yeah. And then it and then it goes down to how thick do you want your power cord, and you've got to allow tolerances for not everybody's voltage is what it's supposed to be, but um but um but um bum.
+
+[30:16] So like technically speaking, I would you know have loved to make it even more powerful, and there's no reason we couldn't have made the heater more powerful. It's down to certification agencies. Hey, buy two, throw them in. Okay. Oh, oh all right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[30:31] Hey Dave, this is Adit from New York. I ran into you in the bar yesterday. Nice. How you doing? Doing well, thanks.
+
+[30:37] Um my question is uh I still have to say hi to everyone else on there, Nastasia and Jack and uh Chris from from Chester. So that's I'm very excited about the tool. So my question is unrelated, unfortunately, to Thanksgiving or circulation. But in uh executing the the will of uh unfortunately deceived old family friend, I've called some old bottles of alcohol, like a champagne, a dom bottle of Dom Perignon from the sixties and a a Takai, like maybe the sweetest variety of Takai uh like Noble Rot wine from the 70s. Nice.
+
+[31:12] I think they're both I I don't know if any if if they're um good at all. The wine looks like I mean the champagne looks like it's probably flat and might have some sediment in it that may even be like quirk residue. Well I was wondering if you have any ideas what to do with it or Okay, where was it stored? Where was it stored? Uh I think it was stored in the dark, but it's really been long enough that you know at room temperature, but it's been long enough that I'm that I'm not confident.
+
+[31:38] But it wasn't it was it in a basement? Was it in a cool room temperature situation? Like probably in a in a closet uh or a cupboard for probably most of the time. Like a high cupboard? Like a high cupboard?
+
+[31:52] Please not a high cupboard. Please tell me it was not a high cupboard. Yeah, yeah. But here's a little known fact people don't think about your high cupboards in your kitchen are much, much, much hotter than your low cupboards are. And in general, high cupboards much hotter than low cupboards.
+
+[32:06] But um Yeah, uh well, here's some more questions for you. The uh the eulage on the wines, do they look like fairly normal or has there been a lot of uh of uh liquid loss? It doesn't seem like there's been any liquid loss in the Chicai, and there may be some in the champagne, but I haven't compared it against another bottle to now. It does look like it's pretty flat though. Well, it's hard to tell if it's sealed, right?
+
+[32:33] It is, yeah, they're both still still sealed. You have exactly two options. Drink it with some very good friends and then have an experience, or sell it. These are the only two options. Now I uh my stepfather has a similar problem because he's the owner of some uh 85 uh uh Roman A Conte.
+
+[32:53] And this bottle of wine that he has is worth, I think it's over 10 grand now. It's like it's like so it's it's you know, uh to me it would be impossible to drink it, but on the other hand, for him, since it's not replicatable, it'd be impossible not to drink it. So he he's put himself in a situation where it's not possible to to not drink it. In your situation, though, since you don't necessarily know how the storage is, I don't know what the price is going to be. Chris, do you have any experience with this kind of stuff?
+
+[33:18] Uh not a lot. I'm actually kind of uh um enjoying learning something here from you, Dave. Uh but the so like I know for instance, uh, you know, my my stepfather's stuff's been kept like in a super temperature controlled kind of seller environment for since it was new, since 85. Um, and so like his stuff has maintained its value if you wanted to auction, except for he did what they did once have a flood which put a watermark on some of the labels, which you know doesn't hurt the wine, but like freaks some people out. So I don't really know, and I don't know what the market value what year is the uh Don Perry?
+
+[33:53] Is it vintage or not vintage? Uh it has a year on it, if that's what you mean. I think it's 62. Uh, I don't know anything about years on champagne, but if it's a vintage champagne, uh there are people who all they like to do is go drink vintage champagnes. And so if it's been kept in fairly decent uh condition, you at least have yourself like an amazing party to have with your friends, but at the very least, something like that, you should get it like a serious ownophile in.
+
+[34:21] And there are, I you know, I don't frequent them, but there are lots of wine discussions where someone can tell you. First of all, on champagne, obviously, uh obviously we know Nastasia's interest has peaked. But uh, you know, they don't make a vintage champagne in l they won't put a year on the champagne unless they thought it was gonna be a good aging uh bottle. Uh the sweet wine, you you're probably gonna have uh really I'm I think you might have really good luck on the sweet wine too, since a lot of those will have uh very, very long aging potential. It's simply a matter of uh the temperature and the conditions in which it's kept.
+
+[34:59] But if you have if your eulage is good, you know, if the if the air gap in the bottle is good, you have a good shot. You know what I mean? I'm I'm not so worried about the the the the tokai, and I think uh, you know, I'm I think people tend to overestimate the impact of uh the storage temperature too. I think fluctuations in the temperature that are are actually the bigger deal, but uh I think a tokai like uh is is gonna probably be very drinkable. Yeah, I mean the oldest champagne I've ever had was a good bit I mean in terms of like actual time since it was bottled to when it was I I've had them from the early 80s, I think, but I've never had so that's and that was last year.
+
+[35:45] So that's uh but you're talking a good 20 years older than that. I'm sure it I'm sure look, I'm sure it has val I'm sure it has value. You might want to sell it. Um if you live in New York, I mean there are laws about it, but there's also a lot of wine dealers who won't necessarily pay attention to the law. Like there are some states where you're allowed to sell the wine back to the same person you bought it from, but nobody keeps records, so nobody knows.
+
+[36:11] You know what I mean? Uh, but I don't know what the value is on that. You'd have to go go look it up. You know what though? Like I look at something like wine seeker or something like that to try to find out.
+
+[36:20] Yeah, you know what else I would do if I were you, New Year's or whatever is uh depends. Like, don't open this in the presence of a bunch of like, you know, like like swill masters who are just gonna like you know, pound this stuff like it. Well, what you do is in a situation like this some new friends then. Yeah, you need oh yeah. Well, that's I tell people that all the time.
+
+[36:38] Your first step is to go get different friends. The second thing you should do is buy a backup bottle of decent but not crazy stuff, that whatever you can afford to have, right? And I take Chris's suggestion in mind. The Tokai is gonna be fine. Uh it the the champagne has a good chance of being sublime, but read up on drinking old champagne so you know what to expect and what to get.
+
+[36:59] And then have a backup bottle so that if you have a bottle of swill on your hands, you always have a uh a backup. Then nobody's ever gonna be unhappy with that. Chris, what do you think about that? I I I think uh you should never have the regret that you never had enough champagne in your life. Bingo.
+
+[37:16] Bingo. All right. Well, listen, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna decide whether you're gonna sell it, you're gonna look up the price, you can decide whether you're gonna sell it, or whether out of deference to uh, you know, your uh past relative that you're going to drink it and have a good time, and you're gonna call us back after the event and you're gonna let us know what happened. All right?
+
+[37:33] All right, now one more question that's Thanksgiving and Chris related. Okay, okay on the line. Caller, you're on the air. Hello, uh hey everybody. This is Steve from Indianapolis.
+
+[37:44] Howdy. Um so my question, first of all, uh regarding the circulator and the uh centurifuge coming out. Um shut up and take my money. Wow. Nice, nice.
+
+[37:55] Thank you. And no problem. Uh, and and secondly, um, I'm uh I'm a med student in in Indianapolis right now, and I'm actually involved in a food uh kind of like a food education program for not only the med students but the local community. Um how what is the easiest like sous vide recipe that you would say to kind of get people on board with circulators? Because I'm uh I'm trying to I'm trying to say, like, hey, it's the best kind of slow cooker for uh like amazing meats and things like that.
+
+[38:26] You can do really cheap cuts of meat and things like that. So um I'm just trying to to consider how to present it, and I just wanted some suggestions. Chris, what do you got? Well, I I think a couple things. I I I think one of the things I I like people who aren't familiar with Sue B, I don't find it super helpful to to call it like a slow cooker.
+
+[38:46] Partly because of the slow cooker, you always get the same stewed texture. I mean, that's what a slow cooker does. You get you get stewed food. Um and and with sous vide cooking or an immersion circulator, you know, you can have just basically awesome uh food in of of any sort of texture and style. From for me, usually what convinces people uh is either like a perfectly cooked piece of fish, so maybe if you know out here in Seattle it it would have to be salmon, um, that you know you f you you cook sous vide and then lightly pan sear it so that you know it's it's perfect, it's it's you know, delicious, it's approachable, and you know what what Sous vide really does is take away the fear and risk that you're gonna ruin a piece of fish.
+
+[39:29] A lot of people in my experience are pretty intimidated with cooking uh uh fish, which is healthy and delicious. Um or the other thing that I I I think is is always great is giving them uh a pork chop that's cooked at a proper temperature. I mean, most people have never had a good pork chop. Everything they've had has just been ruined because of silly USDA recommendations that that aren't scientifically sound. So you take a pork chop it, cook it at sixty Celsius, don't overcook it when you sear it.
+
+[39:58] Uh finish it on the grill, finish in a pan, and and that you know w the you know, people will be a little freaked out, like is it okay for the pork to be a little pink in the center? But you know, it it's amazing. You never knew pork could be that good. Well, here's a here's an interesting point. If you're gonna do sixty, sixty is fine if like uh like there's uh there's there's two ways, there's always two ways to think well, many, but like two main ways is I'm gonna pull it right from the circulator and I'm gonna sear it, or I'm gonna drop it for a while if you sear it.
+
+[40:25] I think sixty is good if you're gonna do like a relatively quick fini finish sear on it out of the bath. I would go a degree or degree like a degree or a degree and a half, maybe even higher if you were going to drop the pork chops down to like 50 or 55 and then ride them before you s before you sear them at the end. Do you agree or disagree, Chris? Yeah, no, I think that's that's reasonable. Yeah.
+
+[40:51] Uh okay. Like when I have med students over just trying to convince people that this thing is really good. Um I've been doing chicken breast 6263 so that I can um kind of not have it be as intimidating. Right. Uh but uh yeah, I like that idea a lot.
+
+[41:09] Here's what I wouldn't do. So, like some of the special effect textures on things, like uh people aren't ready to wrap their minds around the fact that it's different. So, like one of the classic things people do first is like a short rib. And I think short ribs done uh low temp are delicious. However, they're not the same as what people expect from an actual braised short rib.
+
+[41:31] And if you go into it thinking what I'm about to have is a braised short rib, then the sous vide one will come up short because it won't have the same kind of intense meatiness that a traditional braise is gonna have. Neither will the texture be what they uh uh associate. So most of the time, if you're handing someone who's thinking in their mind traditional short rib, a low temp one and and a traditional braise, and you serve them in the style of a traditional braise rather than as something different and new, most people will choose the the old fashioned. And so like that's what I would not do. Okay.
+
+[42:05] Excellent. Yeah. I I mean I've been presenting it as a slow cookie because I didn't necessarily know what to say otherwise, but no, I like this a lot. This is really good. I'll recommend one that we found is really popular.
+
+[42:16] If you're doing chicken, we have a smokerless smoked chicken breast on Chef Steps that's done with sous bead and a and a smoky brine. And uh it'll you know, most people absolutely love it and can't believe it didn't come out of the smoker. Is that the liquid smoke? It does use some of the liquid smoke. Okay.
+
+[42:34] Excellent, excellent. All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, guys. All right, Red of Time, Dave.
+
+[42:38] All right, I gotta I gotta rip through this. I got some questions real quick that I gotta get to. This is this is from uh John Baker in Dallas, Texas. Uh uh I want to get to it before we go out. Um they says measurement of flour.
+
+[42:49] It has become common wisdom that volumetric measurement of flour is not the most accurate method due to variances in the packing of flour particles. Measurement by weight is the answer to the problem. True. But how much of an impact does the moisture content of the flour have on weight? I'm not a food professional, but I've never heard anybody make reference to humidity in the flour throwing off their recipe.
+
+[43:06] Maybe it's an immaterial difference in the end. Okay, uh, since I don't have time to go too deep into it, thank God someone else has done it. And uh everyone he doesn't get enough props, but this guy, Greg Blonder, has a website called Genuine Ideas, which I think is quite nice. Do you like this one, Chris? This this the do you've been that to that blog?
+
+[43:24] Maybe I lost Chris. And he says brilliant smart things. Yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, so you're gonna go look at him. He has one on flour where he has done all of the measurements, and the answer basically is that in the normal uh range of humidity inside of a house, wal uh flour is fairly stable.
+
+[43:44] And if you go into like rainforest, it suddenly starts absorbing more water, and if you go into extremely, extremely dry conditions, it will suddenly give up a lot of water, but that it's actually fairly stable in the range that it's mostly kept. But you need to go look at at what uh he says. Your second question is temperature frying oil. Standard procedure for frying is to bring the fry o oil up to a given temperature before adding the food. Let's say 350 or 375.
+
+[44:07] After adding the food, the oil temperature will, of course, drop and rise again as the vessel is heated. Given that the temperature of the oil drops immediately after the food is added, uh, is because of the heat energy of the oil using to boil water, um, a phase change, uh, as opposed to a linear heating uh for the of the food above the boiling point of water. Wouldn't it be more accurate to specify frying parameters on the heat content of the oil rather than the temperature? In other words, two gallons of oil at 350 would contain far greater thermal energy than two quarts at 375. Uh, best John Baker.
+
+[44:37] You're a hundred percent right. And that's why anyone who has a brain in their head will use as much oil as is feasible when they're frying uh to get uh a higher uh better stability, and that you have to jack the temperature of lower volumes of oil higher. And that's why uh one of the many reasons why frying at home is often uh not as satisfying as having a professional deep fryer. Uh yeah, I mean, right, Chris, you agree with that? Uh I totally absolutely correct.
+
+[45:03] And you know, I I generally advocate actually, since you're almost always at home using very fresh new oil, which tends to be more stable and has a higher smoke point because you haven't, you know, abused it yet. Uh run the oil hotter. Um, you know, 200 Celsius is easily doable by a reasonable frying oil like canola, uh, even 210, and you'll be shocked at how much better your fried food is. And just use lots of it. All right, and Aaron has a question that Chris needs to weigh in on because it's a technique.
+
+[45:30] We gotta be done. Oh, okay. Oh, two seconds, two seconds. Uh last year I did a meat glue turduck and breast loaf for Thanksgiving, and since each year must be a new challenge, I want to add a layer of chicharron on the outside of my poultry roll this year. I was thinking that I would do three birds uh meat glued together wearing a jacket of pork skin.
+
+[45:46] Here's the process. I hope it might work. Steve, what do you think? Boil scrape and dry the pig skin in the oven. Roll the breasts up wrapped in pig skin with meat glue and let it set in the fridge overnight.
+
+[45:55] Low temp the whole thing, then dry the skin as much as possible, and then deep fry it and hope the pork skin is dry enough to get poofy and crackly. Will the already boiled pork skin have enough proteins free for the enzymatic action of the transglutaminase? Yes. Do you think it will be dry enough after sitting in the bag to get delicious and crunchy and puffy? Crunchy yes, puffy no.
+
+[46:12] What do you think? Definitely not, and I would strongly recommend you grind your pork skin so that it's small pieces the size of popcorn kernels, you will be much happier with the result. Sawing through the puff chutron will not not be as delicious as you think. I want to just chime in here with the public service announcement. I saw Dave run through Bushwick to get to this show.
+
+[46:31] He ran two blocks, and I have it on video. I think Jack's gonna put it on Facebook. It's on Instagram, yeah. It's on Instagram. Morning two minutes, two blocks for the show, and it showed commitment.
+
+[46:40] And I'm on the board of directors of HRN, and we are now $30,000 towards our goal of raising a hundred thousand by the end of the year. And if you love Dave, consider we just got ten thousand dollars from the Mariposa Foundation, which is a real honor. Aaron just pulled that off. So consider giving even $25 membership counts. And if we could get all of Dave's listeners to give $25, we'd reach our goal.
+
+[47:03] And huge thank you to Kevin Scott, who actually gave us $500. Nice. Dedicated to cooking issues. So listen. Listen, thanks, uh, thanks to our guests.
+
+[47:14] Everyone, happy Thanksgiving. We'll see you next time on Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[47:35] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC on a pilot project to make farm fresh trees and reaps available at Green Markets. For more information, visit Christmastre's NY.org. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined uh every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or so. Joined as usual with uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:51] Good. And uh we got Rebecca live tweeting over there in the booth with Jack Inslee, Jackie Molecules, our intrepid engineer. How you doing, guys? Sorry, we're good. I can't believe uh we're so on time today.
+
+[1:02] It's a that's miraculous. Well, in order to get me here on time, you have to get me flying in from the passport office in Stanford, Connecticut, which we can talk about in in a bit. But special guest in the studio today, Harold McGee. That's right. That's right.
+
+[1:23] He's here. I didn't give you any advanced notice because I only want die hard fans to be able to call in to 718-497-2128. That is, and I'll say it at a reasonable pace this time, 718 uh 497 2128. Is that even right? Because I can't do it slowly.
+
+[1:42] Is that right? Anyway, so call in your questions uh to uh Harold McGee. You mean, probably you should keep them to a kind of a cooking related kind of a theme, but you know, it's up to you. You know, he's pretty open. Uh Harold is in town because he is going to do a talk at the Museum of Food and Drink Lab on 62 Bayard Street this week on Thursday, right?
+
+[2:06] Thursday. What uh what time is that? 6 30. And I believe you can still I don't know if they it's probably sold out, but you know, don't listen to me. Go on the on the MoFAD website and look up uh I think under the program you can see uh and what are you going to be talking about?
+
+[2:20] Um stuff. Um Peter Kim and I, Peter, the director of the museum and I are gonna just kind of chat about flavor and then take uh questions from the audience. So flavor you're for it or against it? Uh mostly for it. Yeah yeah.
+
+[2:35] Well you know it's interesting there is an anti-flavor thing going on now. It's kind of like the the that goes part of the theme of uh uh uh sugar salt fat whatever order that is plus uh you know the Dorito effect basically uh chiding chiding corporations on their pernicious inclusion of those addicting flavors into food so you're not you're not part of the anti-flavor no it kinda kind of makes sense doesn't it? Yeah yeah I mean if I was a corporation which I guess Stas we are kind of a corporate we haven't we're an LLC. We're not a mega corporation though like we're not we're not hated yet for our you are an LLC. Well me me personally I have a personal but Booker and Dax is an LSA.
+
+[3:19] Booker and Dax is an LLC. Yeah yeah but we're not like a mega corporation but people people can't hate us for that yet we don't have like corporate hegemony yet we haven't reached kind of that Monsanto level yet, right? We're not, you know, mucking about with uh whole cultures yet. Uh the so anyways, so the uh where was where's it going with this? So yeah, so you I mean obviously corporations want to make stuff taste better for people.
+
+[3:46] I mean it seems obvious. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:49] And you would expect them to do that. So I have a question in actually that I know you have uh thoughts on from last week unless you have something super pressing I have last week's question. I have uh Twitter questions for you. All right well let me tackle this one. This is in from uh actually family member of mine, Brady Huggett.
+
+[4:07] Just wanted us to comment on the whole aquabest uh aquabest is that the name of the corporation? The salmon, the genetically engineered salmon that just got uh approved and the people who vow to uh vow to squash it. Do you want to talk about that or do you want to leave it uh untalked about? Do you not want to dip your toes into the water of uh genetically engineered salmon? Perhaps I should tell people what it is first.
+
+[4:30] It's a salmon that's been um I believe they they they've basically taken uh and made it's I don't know whether it's an addition or a deletion of a gene I haven't researched it enough. An addition from uh fish called the pout. The pout? Yes. Wow that's a nice does it look pouty the fish?
+
+[4:49] Is it named for its look? I've never beholden a pot uh pout. Yeah. Well it's like uh kind of the the poorly named it's pronounced crappie but written crappy which why would you want to name a fish crappy but anyway so uh it it grows uh it grows faster has better feed conversion ratio uh than uh ordinary uh salmon right and so uh what are your thoughts on it? Uh my thought is I've been following this now for what, fifteen years or something like that, that uh they first uh put the gene in the fish and began to talk about this.
+
+[5:25] I'm amazed that they're still um able to have a proposal in front of the FDA. Uh and I'm a a kind of fascinated bystander. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I think it's important to make sure that fish that have been engineered don't get out into the world at large. I can't see how a fish engineered in this particular way is going to be a problem for human consumers.
+
+[5:52] So I want to see what happens. Yeah, there's been a lot of um there's been a lot of bad information uh out there on it. Um the you know, one of the interesting things is that uh uh the the fear is that you're gonna have a uh uh an American crayf one of the fears is that you're gonna have like an American crayfish kind of a situation where these salmon get out there, start interbreeding with uh you know the regular salmon, and then uh all hell breaks loose and you get these fast growing salmon that are clogging up the I guess this is one of the you know we lose. Yeah, right? I mean that's the that's the fear.
+
+[6:29] Uh so for those of you that don't know, uh what happened is they um these fish are sterile. They're only releasing uh one sex of fish, female, and those females are believed it's female, and those females are uh sterile. So they're not uh able to have baby fish, right? So that's supposed to get around the thing. Stas, when was the last time you saw Jurassic Park?
+
+[6:52] It's been a long time. Those were also supposed to be sterile, right? Now remember, this is a movie written from a book by a guy who's now dead. But does anyone remember how it is that the the Jurassic Park, anyone? Harold, you remember that?
+
+[7:05] Rebecca, Jack, you remember how that worked? It's been too long. Maybe someone can tweet in how, in a fictional account, the sterility of the Tyrannosaurus Rex, whatever it was, or the no Velociraptor, I believe it was in this case, how that was uh how that life will find a way, as Jeff Goldblum said in one of his more irritating roles. Um anyways, the point is that they're engineered to be sterile, and uh the some of the people who are against this uh fish uh basically are they point out a an uh a state a study that was done that proves proves that uh this fish can actually interbreed with regular fish, and so the the fish was supplied to them by the you know by the company that makes them. However, they supplied them with genetically uh engineered yet non-sterile fish, specifically for this study.
+
+[8:00] So the study the study was to show that if you didn't have a sterilized fish, uh could it interbreed with the regular wild population of uh brown trout and salmon? Because they're worried about the brown trout, because remember, these are being raised inland. So the question is is can this salmon hybridize with inland uh like lake uh and river uh brown trout should it like make it out into the thing? And they found out that yes it can if they were if they were uh not sterilized, and albeit only poorly, even in that case, and yet this is you know touted as being uh you know how you know they that that there's you know there's that somehow uh that it's possible for the ones that they're gonna raise to go out into the wild. You read this stuff?
+
+[8:45] Yes, yes. Yeah. So it seems pretty ironclad, but I I'm glad that there are people out there, you know, pushing, making sure for the rest of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but but what I don't like is just like the false, like the falseness of uh leaving out important details.
+
+[9:03] Yes, like the fish that they tested that could interbreed only poorly actually weren't the fish that people are actually raising. They were they were uh they had a you know whatever whatever. It's just i it people like you it's very hard to get uh you know uh any good information on either side um all right so uh you want to do some Twitter questions or nut milk king wants to know Dave any thoughts or info on dry aging turkey best duck I had was at EMP and it was aged for a week that's a different meat obviously by curious oh obviously but curious I like how I like how Nut Milk King is bicurious. That's great. I've never heard Asia Turkey which by the way like uh I messed up the Thanksgiving turkey a little bit it was still delicious but I did mess it up a little bit.
+
+[9:55] We could talk about that later. Uh it would they were heritage breed Turks turkey Turks turkeys and uh they were uh I thought they were delicious. Did you try it or were you too busy? It was good right they're good. Mm-hmm.
+
+[10:05] Did you try the confreast? No. You didn't try the confie? No. Confi was good.
+
+[10:11] Anyway uh I can't feed the legs out this year. Uh-huh next next well the problem is is that it was very hard to arrange them into uh bird and I didn't have a bag big enough to do the uh the the breasts uh and so like I tried to do a traditional cooking technique on the breasts next year if I do a similar thing which I probably will I'm gonna have to bust out the meat glue I just didn't have the meat glue with me where I was. I didn't I didn't adequately plan. I thought that just giving it time would but I didn't adequately plan my uh equipment uh regimen to do it. That anyway, my bad.
+
+[10:41] Still delicious finished in the tandoor? Oh, yeah, I did one in the tandoor, and uh I didn't end up deep frying the other one, I ended up doing the other one in the oven. But yeah, the tandoor, okay. Here's the issue with the tandoor, right? So I had the bird around the stuffing plug, right, with uncooked breasts, but the stuffing plug was hot.
+
+[10:57] So I was hoping that the stuffing plug would cook the breast meat from the inside out while I was going into the tandoor. Now the tandoor goes back to you know what we've said many times is that you want very high instantaneous heat uh input, but low average heat input. So the way you do a tandoors in and out and in and out, and in and out and in and out and in and out. Um, you know. But the cool thing is when it's in, it's getting hit from all sides at once.
+
+[11:20] Yeah. So I bought a pair of cheap vice grips and uh and vice gripped on on the bottom of this, put the turkey on, wrapped it with a stuffing plug, tied it real tight so it looked kind of like a turkey football. It didn't have any bones in it except for the well, the bones and the config, because they were already cooked out though, right? But the breast area had no bones. Uh then a ball of tin foil to separate it from the next thing, and then a layer of tin foil in the vice grip, the tin foil to stop the the the intense heat from the live coals from burning the bottom side of the bird.
+
+[11:52] But there was just so much grease that and the turkey was so large relative to the side of the size of the tandoor, and I so stoked the tandoor with coals that it was like it was like a freaking disco inferno inside of the tandoor, which was like and then when I I left it in there, so usually like when you're cooking in a tandoor and uh you start getting flames off of like whatever grease is in the thing, you you can you close the bottom uh like air vent a little bit, you d damp that up a little bit, and then you put the lid back on the top, except for the little place where the skewers are coming out. And that deprives the enough oxygen usually that you don't get enough like a large kind of a flames. But not when you have this much grease pouring off of the turkey. So then I pulled the turkey, you know I had it actually two skewers through it right so I could do a double uh grip. So the the the trick to any having a tandoor is having a place you can put the skewers to rest in between your firings of the of the tandoor that's not like the ground or something outside.
+
+[12:56] I have a spiral staircase next to the tandoor so I was like putting them on the spiral staircase. But I went to go readjust and it poured hot grease like all over my finger. You can still see the wrinkle marks in my finger from what used to kind of be a normal uh finger. So that was unpleasant. But it tasted good.
+
+[13:12] It was good. I would do it again albeit uh a little bit uh differently I would dry the bird more beforehand and maybe maybe not maybe cook it all low temp with the bones in which is anathemately I don't know I gotta figure it out but I would definitely tando it again because I like the flavor of the Tandoor. Yeah. Yeah. I have ambitions to start tandouring you should you need to own a Tandoor.
+
+[13:38] Yeah. First of all you have a house in a backyard. Yes. So Tandor. You know you I I'm sure there's some place in in San Francisco that sells them but the place in New Jersey ships and the problem is that the shipping charge is a little bit high I think.
+
+[13:51] Uh-huh uh you gotta get a Tandoor. Tandoor is the best. I love the Tandoor. Hashtag vertical grilling it's the best. The only question is is is uh so like I when I do steaks, I put the you know those like crappy fish grills that you can buy or veggie grills that you can buy.
+
+[14:08] I have a bunch of those, and um those usually have a place where you can uh like where it folds down and you put a clip over it to hold it down. Yeah. And so that's a perfect place to shove a skewer through. So typically what I'll do is I'll throw like uh steak or anything like that, uh, you know, pieces that can't be skewered easily, and uh put them in the basket and then put them in the tandoor suspended over another skewer and close it. And so that's the way you do things that aren't normally tandored.
+
+[14:35] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's how you vertically grill things like that. Yeah. Uh anywho. Uh wait, but that doesn't answer the question.
+
+[14:42] Dry aging turkey, what do you think? You gotta play with it. I mean, I've never done it before, so I would do it once, maybe uh plan on doing it for longer than is probably ideal and see if that's the case. Maybe check it out as it's going. But I'd hang on to it for I don't know, ten days, something like that.
+
+[15:05] Would you would you salt it ahead of time to stop any sort of anything that's kind of growing on the outside? Uh I don't know. Maybe wipe it with vinegar every once in a while. Try to kill other person. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:22] Just keep it clean. What about uh what about choosing a bird that whose meat is inherently darker? Is that gonna be uh good, like a a heritage style bird? As opposed to a butter ball. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:37] I mean, well, and of course butterballs have other stuff uh floating around in there. Diacetile and and oil. Yes. Do they actually put butter in a butterball? No idea.
+
+[15:49] No idea. Haven't looked at the ingredient list recently. You know how I bet you has tried to dry edge a turkey? Johnny Hunter. I bet you Johnny Hunter's tried to dry age of turkey.
+
+[15:59] Maybe he'll write in. Alright. Anyway. Alright, what uh what else? What else do we got?
+
+[16:02] What else we got, Steve? Actually, I got a call out. Oh, caller, caller. You're on the air. Hi Dave.
+
+[16:08] Uh this is Jeffrey from Costa Mesa. How you doing? Uh better now that I have the sweet Jackie Molecules uh ringtone on my phone. Uh that means that means is member. Uh-huh.
+
+[16:19] Yeah. We'll play the ringtone maybe at the break. Except for when people call and I answer at the right time. I instinctively say Jackie Molecules. And then they hang up because they think they have the wrong number.
+
+[16:31] Well, you know what though? Do you want to talk to those people? Do you want to talk to people that do you want to talk about the floor? Not necessarily, no. No.
+
+[16:37] So it works out. Yeah, it's perfect. Um I called in about uh blanching French fries for a shorter amount of time. Okay. A couple weeks ago.
+
+[16:47] Right. Um just following up with that. Uh it seemed as though I tried a few different times for the blanch and basically pushed to the the lowest amount of time or sorry, the most amount of time I could get uh without them starting to all shatter. Right. So the the what the theory here was, by the way, the call was about uh you know, when you blanch it as long as uh you know I usually do to get the best textural effect in the French fry, the potatoes are so loose that they're really beat up by the end.
+
+[17:18] And so then like kind of getting around this. Go ahead. Right. Um so yeah, so about nine or ten minutes uh was sort of the furthest I could go without you know a large amount of them shattering. Uh and so in about ten minutes it seemed like the the starch was pretty well gelatinized, had a decent uh salt penetration.
+
+[17:38] So then I tried uh a few different oven temperatures and had kind of some interesting results. So at 300, uh it was pretty pretty consistently got like hollow fry. Right. Uh up at 350, they were a little more sort of dense, but the the people that were kind of blind trying them, they liked the 350. Uh and then 400 was my favorite uh no hollow fry, pretty pretty soft, kind of good uh you know, pillowy uh potato texture.
+
+[18:09] Uh so 400 seemed to be the way to go for you know another 10 minutes uh before frying. Was the 400, was the 400 less time than the than the three and change that had the hollow fry? No, I they were all I did them all for 10 minutes just to see what what would happen with that. So that was that was curious. That's strange, right?
+
+[18:31] So I mean uh Harold, you remember like the pr the problem of French fries obviously is one of uh of uh st breaking the starch first to get the texture that you want, but also uh moisture control both throughout the fry and at the crisp surface, right? And usually hollow fry is the result of over drying, at least in my theory, it's of over drying, and so you lose kind of the substance that's on the inside of the fry and it basically just had this crisp outside. But it's kind of odd, right, that you would have hollow fry at three in change or three hundred. Right. Three hundred for ten minutes, and then not hollow fry.
+
+[19:12] You know what? I bet you you're case hardening it. Is it like a dehydration effect that's happening at the lower temperature? Well, I think the high yeah, I think the lower temperature is probably more effectively dehydrating the entire fry. Yeah.
+
+[19:25] And that you're you must be getting some sort of case hardening effect at the higher temperature. And you're probably also uh you're probably evacuating moisture at such a high rate at the surface that maybe you're No, I'm not saying it's like searing where you there's a fake sealing of the crust. I'm saying you're probably doing something to dense up the surface of the fry. It's gotta be, right? It's the only explanation I can think of.
+
+[19:50] Right? Interesting. Yeah. Huh. Yeah, so am I uh dumb or or just uh masochistic to after I I go through all these steps to make a French fry, uh adding an additional step and that feels normal?
+
+[20:07] No, it's you shouldn't no, you shouldn't be no, it's good. That's good. I mean it's first of all, like there isn't normally a drying step anyway, so you're just having that drying step take place in an oven. Right? Uh and by the way, like this is how everything in the world happens through observation.
+
+[20:24] Like if you had asked us, I presume Harold, I mean uh if you had asked us what would happen when you jack the temperature, I would have said more hollow fry. More that's what I would have said. You know, not knowing. But this is why it's very hard to answer questions from a theoretical basis and you need to actually do the tests and pay attention to what goes on. You know?
+
+[20:44] This is why you should always beware of people who tell you that they have the answer to something unless they actually run the specific test that they're telling you about. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So what about uh I'm what I was wondering then about getting better salt penetration um with that limited blanch time. Mm-hmm.
+
+[21:02] Uh would it affect the the way that the pectin X is able to affect uh you know the starch and everything if I added salt to that bath? I do that, you know, the hour long pectanex ultra. Well, I am very sus I I don't know uh how much the salt is going to affect the enzyme, but just on a theoretical basis, I am suspicious that in the absence of the high blanching temperature that you're gonna get too much more penetration than you will just by upping the salt content in your blanch water. What do you think, Harold? Uh yeah, I'm I'm not they actually actually clear on this part of the system.
+
+[21:46] Oh, so they're so so they they like the real like hardcore French fry technique, right? Is uh so you know how the modernist folk uh uh they do the uh ultrasonic bath to mess with the surface of the fry. So like the one that you know we do is uh is soak it in um in a pectinx bath, which which uh you know kind of disrupts the surface of of the fry. Uh-huh. But uh uh and that's our first step prior to so you know how like you you rinse the starch off normally in you in water, you soak it.
+
+[22:17] Some people soak it for a long time to to uh extract excess soluble sugar from the potato. Then you do your water blanch step with salt to put salt in and do the precook on the starch, then the question of drying, which we just addressed, then fry one, then sometimes freeze, depending on what you want, and then fry two, right? This is how you make a French fry. Yeah. This is how God would make a French fry.
+
+[22:40] Uh anyway, so the the point is that um on the enzyme soak thing, I don't think for instance, just soaking a potato in salty water, I don't think is going to get uh appreciably more penetration than just upping the salt content of the hot blanch water because it's just so much faster the hot blanch water. I would just jack the salt level in the blanch. Yeah, yeah. I'll give that a try. Yeah.
+
+[23:05] And uh thanks thanks to your recommendation, I'll now be uh finishing fries in an outdoor Cajun fryer. Oh yeah. Let us know how the cajun fire works. And they uh I gotta give a uh kind of props to them. I called their owner the night before Thanksgiving.
+
+[23:21] We had that thing delivered, we're setting it up and it wasn't uh it wasn't lighting. So I called them. We're in California, I called them like 7 15 their time to the they just give like the home phone number for emergencies. So I called the owner and uh he answered the phone, kind of talked me through banging the regulator on on the tank and uh and got it working. So did it work well?
+
+[23:45] It worked well to anybody. It worked well? Yeah. Nice. It's beautiful.
+
+[23:49] Yeah good to know. Well thanks for that. And you can buy the you can buy the Cajun Fryer at Bass Pro Shops. Although we're not affiliated with the I got a bunch of questions in the chat for Harold if we want to start getting some of those. All right.
+
+[24:04] All right, we'll go with the most recent one first. How about this? Interested in hearing Harold's thoughts on the bean liquid egg substitute aquafaba. Right. Uh yeah, I've gotten more emails about that than anything I can remember, at least in in uh recent years.
+
+[24:21] So it's it's the the liquid from a can of chickpeas whips up into a nice meringue. And uh As far as I can tell, uh of course there's protein in there and starch. Uh but apparently there's also a fair amount of saponins, which are molecules that are uh uh good at foaming. So that you've got uh stuff in there that that wants to foam and then stuff in there that's gonna stabilize a foam, like the dissolved starch and and protein, and the combination is this uh you know unexpected uh boon to vegan meringue makers. So for those of you that don't uh are not aware of the kind of genesis of uh on food and cooking, uh Harold's you know uh first book, uh it was as a result of him studying the fart-inducing principle of uh beans.
+
+[25:19] So is part of that the saponins as well, or is that simply the polysaccharides that you don't digest it? Uh bacteria. I don't think sapponins are uh uh flatulogenic. No. Well that is a fantastic word.
+
+[25:30] That's a very good word. That's a fantastic word. You like that word, Sas? Yeah. Even Nastasia likes that word, and that's so unusual for her to like a word.
+
+[25:38] She has like her happy Stas face on, unusual in a situation like this. Uh so I got some more in here we should get to, right? Let's see. Uh our old friend Elliot. Hey Harold, can you talk about fermentation of herb stems and milk?
+
+[25:53] Herb stems, sorry. Herb stems in milk. Which which herb. No, no, no. He's here.
+
+[26:00] He can probably answer that. I know for a fact that Harold, you've done work with amaranth stalks, but not in milk. No, no. And and there the aim is to make something as stinky as possible. I think that that's not likely with with this one.
+
+[26:14] Uh I mean, in milk you would get a a lactic fermentation. Maybe the the herb stems would be carrying naturally occurring lactobacilli, lactococci into the milk, and so they might help seed it. But I don't see what what the connection would be between the herb stems and the milk. I bet you that's a word stas hates lactococci. Yeah, well some so I mean some uh like if I guess it depends on the herb, like cartoons will will break it, right?
+
+[26:44] I mean it's like it depends on Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Um but I'm thinking herbs herbs that I would think of would be more like you know, parsley and things like that. And I'm not sure that they have any active um active principles and ac cartoons yeah, they've got a lot of tannin. I think that's what what causes the coagulation when you're uh doing them a blonde.
+
+[27:10] Well is that the is well what's the th what's the renneting thing in in the rest of the thistle family all about? Uh that's that's in the flour. Yeah. The cartoon flour. Yeah.
+
+[27:20] And that's a separate that's an actual enzyme. That's right. Yeah. That that that is almost identical to the enzyme in calf's stomach. Yeah.
+
+[27:28] Yeah. Crazily enough. P.S. all you people that hate genetically modified food, all your cheese is made with genetically modified rennet. Uh caller.
+
+[27:36] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Uh had a question for you on the uh the turkey in a bag from Thanksgiving. We had the debate and didn't know it was starting out, we thought it was a chick gimmick, you know, where you cook the turkey in a bag. This talk we're talking about the oven bags.
+
+[27:52] But I I kind of like large, I don't know, it's uh it's a baking bag. Gotcha. And then we concluded that it might be like a poor man's comedy, and we can't decide. How the science is going on inside the bag. Okay, well, every and Harold will, you know, can you know every 20 years or so, uh, 20 to 30 years, as far as I can tell, bag cooking makes a big uh a renaissance.
+
+[28:19] So a bag paper bag cooking was big when I was a kid. Uh it's not paper anymore, but bag cooking, uh and by the way, bag cooking, not like sous vide bag, we're talking bag like a large papillote style bag is is uh it is big now. Uh I have a book from the early, early 1900s from uh Alexis Sawyer's like son or grandson on paper bag cookery back when paper uh first started to be uh regular paper first started to be non-toxic so that it could be used uh in in kind of cooking. So this is something that comes back again and again, and usually things that come back again and again have some merit, I would say, although I don't necessarily know what that merit is. Have you thought about this at all, Harold?
+
+[29:10] Well, I'd actually look at it the other way around. If if things kind of come and go, they they go because they don't work so well. Right? And then come back because people forget. Well, uh, I mean I you know, the specifically the question here is is like, is it like a poor man's combi, right?
+
+[29:31] Like, are you keeping the steam in? I don't know. Like I I used to mean the paper bag chicken that I used to make when I was a kid, my memory of it is that it was good. It doesn't steam the bird in the sense that it the the the skin gets crispy. So it's not this is a different kind of bag, I'm guessing we're talking about.
+
+[29:53] This one's much more plasticky, and well, I have a my mother in law loves doing it, and I have to keep convincing her if you're gonna do the bag at least open it up so the skin can't get crispy because while the turkey's cooked her skin's never we're we're missing the best part. I I think this is the I think it's nylon that these uh baking bags are made out of or something something like that. You know, some some polymer that can take high temperatures. Uh and I think the thing about them is that they you are essentially because they are impermeable, unlike paper, uh you are trapping the steam and you're not getting evaporative cooling so the temp you're you're essentially steaming or boiling the bird. Um you do get I think some radiant heat through the bag so that it can kind of crisp up in spots.
+
+[30:44] But uh because the humidity is so high in there it's uh it's limited. So they're not um they don't you don't poke holes in this bag. No. You you you I think you are supposed to leave the end uh that you tie off not not tied off tightly so you are you you do lose some but but I think the the effective surface area of whatever opening there is is so small that it's it's negligent. So you don't have the you don't have the ability to lose enough moisture to have a what they call high relative humidity whatever that means at elevated temperature but elevate it to the point where it's browning efficiently.
+
+[31:25] Yeah yeah. So that would be unfortunate. Yes. I know you can cook a paper bag chicken and have the chicken be crispy. But you have to use the old school big paper bags.
+
+[31:38] And you know, you have to put plenty of butter on the skin of the chicken. Yeah. But again, maybe I was just wrong. Maybe look, you're you're asking me to remember what stuff tasted like when I was like eight and nine years old. That was like, you know, or ten.
+
+[31:51] That's when I was, you know, doing my paper bag work. And it is true that using the modern silicone sealed parchment paper on papillotte style, you get basically exclusively steamed results out of things like fish. Do you like on papillot cooking in general or do you hate it? Uh I don't I mean I I like it uh if I want to cook fish and not have my house smell fishy. So I'll cook it uh on papillot and then let it cool down so that uh you know it doesn't the moment I open it up, it doesn't just fill fill the space with fish smell.
+
+[32:27] Oh. Well what about the idea of of that like uh you know how like when you make an excellent like dashi it's all about that moment that rev uh aromatic reveal? Yeah don't you like that aspect of the on papillot? Oh yeah, yeah. That's that's nice in in somebody's somebody else's house or restaurant.
+
+[32:42] What do you like? What do you think, Styles about your house filled with fish smell? No. No? No.
+
+[32:47] You know what I detest? Uh the the oil overheated fish oil is the worst. That is the worst. That stuff never except for when I'm when I'm doing sardines in a pan, I don't mind it. 'Cause there's just something so I mean, I don't like it the next day, but there's just something so m marvelous about sardines cooked on a high heat.
+
+[33:09] Yes. Yes. You know? Yeah. And I have my my favorite places to go to get that in San Francisco.
+
+[33:16] Really? What is it? Well, actually, it used to be in Canto, which is now closed, but Coxcomb does sardines also. So uh Chris Cosantino's place. Nice.
+
+[33:26] Yeah. I'm sure he can cook a sardino. Oh, yeah. Stas, what are your thoughts on sardines? Like 'em a lot.
+
+[33:29] Do you also like canned sardines? Um. Okay, James Beard, right? Among many uh he had many faults. One was uh preferred uh electric, not I'm not talking induction.
+
+[33:45] I'm talking crappy resistance electric uh range tops to uh gas. True story. Also thought that canned sardines were far superior to fresh sardines. Now, he's from the Pacific Northwest, right? So you presumably he could get good sardines.
+
+[34:03] So this is just craziness. Like i I think that they're not the same product. I don't think they should be compared. I don't think that they're similar. Not only do I think that they're like like different, I think they are dissimilar products.
+
+[34:15] Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I love canned sardines and I I love aged canned sardines. You know, you can get vintage age.
+
+[34:23] Yeah, we t yeah, we've tasted them together. Yeah, yeah. But you're right. You couldn't do that to a sardine sardine. And uh yeah, they're they're they're just uh they they offer different experiences.
+
+[34:35] Do you pick out the weird calcium bone lits from the canned sardines? Are you eating? No, that's part of the part of the deal. Yeah, yeah, you you and Booker both. What about you, Stas?
+
+[34:47] Do you like that? Do you mind that the you know what I'm talking about? The backbone? The back you ever do you pull the backbone out of your canned sardines? Or are you the fancy folk that buy the skinless boneless?
+
+[34:57] I don't know. Skinless boneless, I guess. I have to admit I like skin's bones. I don't like I don't texturally because it's gritty. It's not that it's crunchy, it's gritty.
+
+[35:08] Because the the bones have dissolved and all you have are these little kind of calcium bitlets left. Not a fan of the calcium bitlet. Uh-huh. What about any in the engineering booth, Rebecca, Jackie? I got nothing for you there.
+
+[35:22] Nothing? You guys don't eat sardines? Don't like sardines. What? No, I like sardines.
+
+[35:28] Wait, Rebecca, you don't like sard you don't like any form of sardine? I don't think so. Maybe uh Caesar salad? What? No, no, no.
+
+[35:38] No, I don't even like that that much. That is an anchovy. Ah, I knew it. As soon as I said it, I knew you were gonna. That is an anchovy.
+
+[35:45] I apologize. Alright, so okay, so you're saying you don't like anchovies either. Not particularly. I don't like little slimy fish. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[35:55] She also doesn't like bubbly water. Oh, I didn't say that on the floor. Spoiled. But here's my point. A good anchovy is not slimy.
+
+[36:04] Like, look, here's what you don't want to like start your life in anchovies. Go buy a can of uh salted anchovies. Just straight salted anchovies. Maybe you should make me some. Stas, you like anchovy pasta, yeah?
+
+[36:16] Yeah. Do you make it with the with the crappy canned stuff or do you make it with the uh with the uh with the salted stuff? I make it with the salted stuff. You make it with the salted stuff, Harold? I do too.
+
+[36:27] Here's another thing. The white anchovy that like uh you know, like the cured white anchovy, they are not the same thing. I do not like people saying that they are better than uh salted or salted and then oiled anchovies. I think that they are different, and frankly, I am a weirdo, but I could eat more salted anchovy than I could the cured. I don't know.
+
+[36:51] Everyone loves them, I love them. They're good, but they're not the they're not the same product. They they shouldn't be compared. Yeah. You agree?
+
+[36:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. It's this this wonderful bounty, this cornucopia of different fish products. Yeah.
+
+[37:04] They're all different. Yeah. Yeah. Hey c hey people, is cod the same as salted cod? No.
+
+[37:09] No. They're different. They're different products. Another question here in the chat room. What do you got?
+
+[37:14] What are some of Dave this is an easy one? What are some of Dave and Harold's holiday give suggestions for an aspiring home cook? Already have a circulator and a good set of pots and pans. Longtime listener, first time question. Well, if you have money, you should wait for us to release the centerfuge.
+
+[37:27] Boom! Exactly. That was the setup. All right, all right. That's nice setup.
+
+[37:30] But uh what do you think, Harold? What do you what do you like to give people uh probably food related? A uh uh hypodermic needle style thermometer. For you can stick it into any size piece of meter of fish. You you don't see a hole afterwards and you can check like thirty different places in thirty seconds.
+
+[37:54] Right. And uh by the way, so w there are things on the market that are referred to as hypodermic that really are not. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, i if it looks like it could put a hole in you without leaving too much of a mark, then that is what you're looking for.
+
+[38:11] That's what we're looking for. However, yeah, I don't know whether I said this on the air or whether I've just said it to other people. Don't ever use that thing as a candy thermometer. Don't ever put that into deep fry oil because you will ruin it. Yeah.
+
+[38:23] Very quickly. And they're not cheap. They're cheaper than they used to be. They're under a hundred bucks now, right? Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:29] Like between fifty and seventy-five these days. Yeah, but then you're still into it for a thermocouple thermometer. So you need to buy the probe and the thermometer. Or do they come with a packaging? You can get the package, but it but the the probe is uh plug-in, so you can buy replacements.
+
+[38:44] You can buy buy one on a wire and all kinds of nice things. You will be tempted to use it as a candy thermometer. Don't you'll be tempted to test the temperature of your deep fry over with it. Do not. Do not.
+
+[38:58] Not do that. I've ruined more than two. Uh yeah, all right. That's good. I have to shout out Renee Kasperg, who just made a donation.
+
+[39:07] Looks like all the way from Norway. Norway. So that's awesome. I like that. Never been in Norway.
+
+[39:12] Not me neither. Me neither. I'd love to. Been to Sweden. Never been to Norway.
+
+[39:18] Never really been to Denmark. Yeah, I've just been to Copenhagen. Yeah. And you're like, that doesn't count. Crap on them.
+
+[39:26] It's like it's like the jersey of Denmark. Just kidding. It's like it's not. All right. Holiday question here, unless you have one.
+
+[39:32] Go. Chat room is alive here. Um so Harold and Dave, can you advise on the minimum AV the minimum ABV for aged eggnog? The Dr. Lancefield recipe seems to work out at about 15% ABV, but other recipes on the web aim for 20.
+
+[39:49] Well, if 15 is good, 20 is gonna be fine. I mean how low do you want it to go? That's the question, right? Yeah. I mean the the the that one's the one from the Rockefeller, right?
+
+[39:59] The one that the one that uh is being quoted is the one from the Rockefeller University. That's the Lancefield one, the one that they actually did a uh challenge test on. So I think that's the one that they were referring to. So that this uh doctor at the Rockefeller, she had this eggnog recipe and they made it every year, and someone was like, Hey man, save mama, and they're like, Well, this is what we do for a living. And so they did a challenge test and they looked at the kill rate and how long it took to kill off the stuff with certain level of uh of uh initial bacterial load and a certain ABV and etc etc and it was you know on the order if it was aged for I forget what it was like a couple of weeks that it you know becomes safer and safer.
+
+[40:39] Same like mayonnaise same like uh using eggs in any cocktail where you're not actually killing the salmonella quickly. So the answer is is that there are two separate problems. One, what is the ABV required to maintain bacteriostatic uh the bat bacteriostatic nature of it right and two uh like at a given ABV how long does it take to become safe if it were contaminated at the get-go? And those seem to me to be uh two different n things right so you could say I know that within three weeks or two weeks whatever it is 15% ABV is safe. However once decontaminated perhaps it could be diluted down to 10 or 12 uh or or less but think beer doesn't get nasty contaminants in it it gets it can get ruined you can have yeast growth you can have all these other things but you're not getting anything that'll kill you in it and that is down that's much lower.
+
+[41:37] I think even if you were to crack an egg into beer as long as it was prepaste I don't think salmonella can grow at those alcohol percent what do you think Harold? I'd want to check. I would check I mean this is all just theorizing in my head but yeah um well I don't know the beer is different because there is beer is pretty lean by comparison and carbonated though. Yeah yeah that too both of which I think work against bacteria in a way that uh an agnog mix does not right all that protein all that fat higher uh lower acidity so I think you'd want I don't know, yeah, especially because the other recipes cited are higher. Yeah.
+
+[42:28] Going higher is definitely going to make you safer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:35] I don't know. Maybe it's just always wanting to play with with the the border, right? See see how far you can go. But I'm not I I just don't think that uh I mean al alcohol contributes to the flavor of the drink. And I think if you go too low, it's gonna be like a milkshake, right?
+
+[42:54] Yes, now you've put Kelly's song into my head. I got the milkshake song going through my head, which is uh it's not unfortunate. I guess it's fine. Stas, do you like that song? No.
+
+[43:03] You you've always hated it, or just now that I'm mentioning it. I've always hated it. Me too. Wow. Wow.
+
+[43:09] All right. So Stas, why don't you give us a Twitter question so I don't feel left out here? Uh someone wants to know if they should crank the TS 8000 all the way up while they're using the cereal. Yes. Okay.
+
+[43:20] The answer is always yes. I think they were scared. Oh, don't be scared. There are things in life to be scared of, that is not one of them. Um Brunt Grupton wants to know ever use birch syrup in a drink.
+
+[43:34] So far, all I've made is maple leaf variation and it tastes flat. Excuse me, what was that name? Brunt gumption. Oh, awesome. Awesome.
+
+[43:43] So uh the only birch syrup I've ever had was uh uh flawed. And I still not yet received a good uh birch syrup. It was it was uh acidic. And I'm assuming that it wasn't the nature of the birch syrup itself to be uh overly acidic. It tasted acidic and like matterized, something had happened to it.
+
+[44:04] Um but and I've I said this before on the air, and someone pointed out a good birch syrup supplier. I just haven't had it yet. Uh I would love to have it, but I'm presumably it's gonna taste different from uh maple syrup. I don't know. I I have not had any experience with uh a birch syrup that I can say, yeah, I now I know how birch syrup's supposed to act.
+
+[44:28] But I'm interested in it, very interested in it. I'm interested in all sorts of tree exudates and saps and their various uh you know things. Like someone called in before, remember and they were gonna try to get uh liquid embarst uh styracophula uh resin like sweet gum resin. I wonder whether that happened. I want to taste that too.
+
+[44:45] Uh plenty of stuff I want to taste like that. But uh you had any uh Harold, you had any experience with birch syrup? I had some just a taste years and years ago, and I just remember it tasting sweet and not maply, more kind of more in the direction of um uh just sort of brown brown syrup, caramel, caramel flavors. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:07] I'm gonna give a shout out to Crosby Molasses. Crosby molasses in terms of brown sugar. People think when they think of molasses, they think of uh like that. I believe the brand is actually grandma's, you know, sulfur black strap molasses. And um you would never dream of putting that, for instance, on pancakes.
+
+[45:32] Never. You would never think to do it. Yeah. Because you're like, why the hell would I want that monstrosity on my pancake? Right.
+
+[45:39] Uh but uh there is m much more in the world of molasses than that. And so for those of you that are fortunate enough to be in the in New England area, get go get you some Crosby's molasses. That stuff is delicious. Delicious. Anyway.
+
+[45:59] Okay. Dean Messon wants to know any chance of an episode on pots and pans, Dave. So much bullshit advice out there on the consumer end of the market. What what what kind what what specific kind of BS are we referring to? That's the question.
+
+[46:14] So like, yeah, we could do one. I mean, uh, you know, uh Harold and I, we used to teach, uh, and you know, Harold also independently uh used to do there's a bunch of different techniques that people use to measure like uh how do you what do you want in a pan? That's that's the thing, right? The answer is yes, we can do one eventually, but the question is what do you want in a pan? What do I want in a pan?
+
+[46:36] Usually I want it to not scorch. And uh, you know, uh I mean it depends on what you're what you're looking to do. Are you storing heat for a long time and then you need to so cast iron, right? But you know, cast iron is good at certain things and bad at others. Um Teflon pans will die.
+
+[46:57] Uh most nonstick I've never had a nonstick pan that that didn't die. I'm just gonna put it out there. Harold, have you ever had a nonstick pan that didn't die? I've got one that's that's going uh really well. I'm not and I don't know how long it's gonna last, but I'm uh you know, not intentionally abusing it, but I'm not babying it either.
+
+[47:16] And I've had it now for a couple of years. What what br are you do you want to uh push it out there? What brand you were using? Oh let's see if I can pull it back. Um there are a couple and I might get them confused.
+
+[47:33] So but I can if you have that program include me in and I'll I'll be waving it at my end. I'll let you know exactly and I'll abuse it between now and then. All right and also I like you you guys like you know uh people who are interested if you want to set up we can set up a particular time to do this like like tweet on in or email in uh email's probably better for this email in like what particular horse hockery you want us to uh investigate uh beforehand because you know there might be a pan that maybe you know I haven't used Harold has or you know uh one I haven't used that I can I can look into um you know whether it's just one of like uh so for instance I I was at Wiley's uh house uh over the weekend Wiley Dufrein and he has his grandpa for some reason even though his grandpa wasn't a cook although that's not true maybe his grandpa was the one that owned a donut factory but I think that was the other side. But the um a real set of old school copper pants like full thick full thick old copper tinned out and I was like uh I was talking to him about it because he was going to get them restored and back at Jean George they used to have the full copper set and back and they probably still do but if you walk into 59th street and look into his kitchen you can see in it's like all the gleaming copper that Wiley said he used to have to polish. And I was like is it that much better than cooking like on an all clad?
+
+[48:54] Which by the way is what everyone cooks with. You know what I mean? Like 99% of people that I know uh at home uh and even professionally and for some if you have the money, they're using allclads uh basically what do you cook with a home styles? Do you have all clads? Really?
+
+[49:11] You never stole any allclads from anyone? Anyway, what about you Harold like for pots and pans and stuff like that mostly all clads but I I I collect lots of different things and and mess with them. And as you're saying it depends on what you're trying to do. If I'm if I really want to sear something inside and of course I'm gonna finish it with the Searsol but I'll start with a cast iron pan and I'll put a layer of aluminum foil over it to reflect back the heat that it's otherwise going to radiate as it's heating up and get a nice thermal mass there. Yeah I mean unless something is garbage there's always something fun you can do with it.
+
+[49:47] There's always some application you can have with it. Like there are places for the old school straight black iron pans too not not cast iron or black steel pans. Yeah you know what I mean um you know there's a place for most anything really like some like for instance like we all think that it's it's good to have your pans be completely even it's not always the case. Like uh like in a in a large like let's say you're doing like a a a Kamal for instance you want there to be a uh a gradient or a or a plancha. You want there to be a gradient across it.
+
+[50:18] You know what I mean? Like it's it's about the gradient. Uh and so there you might not want hyper even you might not want a big ingot of aluminum that is gonna like you know or copper that's gonna spread. But anyways like so there's uh you know it all depends on what you're shooting for and uh figuring out what you can do with a but there are some pans that are just straight garbage. Yeah everything everything I have yeah I have the best collection of garbage in Brooklyn.
+
+[50:43] Well you know what you g guys should do is just like do what I did. Go to thrift shops shops. Go to thrift shops. People get rid of fantastic pans. So, like what you'll do is is that nine times out of ten, they'll throw away garbage.
+
+[50:58] And you'll be like, you know what? That is garbage. So you know what you don't do? You don't buy that. But like I've gotten like amazing sabatier, like 10 inch like carbon steel sabbatier knives in thrift stores.
+
+[51:10] I've gotten uh 60 70 year old polished cast iron griswald pans in thrift stores for like two bucks. So, you know, search and you will find. You know, one one person's idiocy and throwing something away can be your game. Yeah, mean styles will go on a scavenger hunt one day. That's what I'm talking about.
+
+[51:31] By the way, uh uh a little over a mile from here is a restaurant I gotta look into. You ready for it? D apostrophe oasis. Is it what is it? It's the doasis de Oasis.
+
+[51:43] You know, it's like the Oasis. Doasis. I wonder what the hell. It's like a bar and restaurant. What the hell do you think they serve over there?
+
+[51:51] What made you look that up? What made you find that? He was probably driving past it on his way from Stanford. Yeah, I was driving from Stanford because I'm going to China next week to to help build the uh centerfuge, and I would live tweeted out, except for the entire freaking country of China bans Twitter. You know, uh, you know, and I I don't have a special like non-sedition Twitter account that allows me to like you know, to you know, uh go on the uh those they have no sense even when we call the the our the factory in China and we try to joke around with them styles, they can't play, right?
+
+[52:20] No, yeah. Anyway, um anyway, point being that yeah, I think it was in Mass Peth or something. I was like, Dois, yeah. I'm gonna go there after the show and maybe you know, knock back some brewski's at the oasis. Anyways, uh are we gonna get ripped off the air?
+
+[52:35] We're gonna get ripped off the air. Pretty soon. All right. Uh Harold, any uh any last uh any any any any super pressing Harold needs in the chat room? Oh, let's see.
+
+[52:44] Uh they've been answering a lot of their own questions, which is great. And Tim Thraves is also offering everybody in the chat room gin and juices at Booker and Dax because he's gonna be there on Monday. Somebody said be careful what you offer Tim. Uh if Dave has time, thoughts on Brooks Superiority Burger. Oh, I imagine those are good thoughts.
+
+[53:03] Well, Nest uh, you know, I've had his burger, but I have not yet made it to the actual restaurant. I hear only excellent things, and so the expert on this, and uh Harold, have you gone yet? I haven't. It's right around the corner from where I'm staying, but it's always been mobbed when I've walked by. So the the expert on uh Brooks Headley and all things superiority burger at cooking issues is of course Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[53:25] Does this person live in New York? That asked this question. Uh that's that's a good good question. They did not specify. That's good.
+
+[53:34] I really hate when people write into the show and they're like, have you ever like sharpened a knife, Dave? Or like, you know, and it's like just look it up or go or do it. Like, I don't understand. Yeah, but the person wants to know food is good there. So the superiority burger is good.
+
+[53:49] And if you live in New York, go. What is your favorite thing on the menu there? Uh uh the Yuba, whatever that is. You like Yuba, huh? Yeah, I didn't think I would.
+
+[53:59] I love you. And on that note, we're done. We are done. So listen, I probably won't be back next week because I'll probably be in China and during transport, but uh when I get back from China, more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[54:20] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at Heritage Radio Network.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. I'm Michael Ameko from Food Talk. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you. Precorded from the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizza Willa in Bushwick, bro uh uh uh uh uh you doing Stas. Joined as usual, Stas. How are you doing?
+
+[0:47] Good. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? Nastasia, the hammer Lopez people.
+
+[0:52] You can't call in to speak to her while she's wearing it, but she is wearing for the first time this year at the radio show, her marvelous Christmas hat. I think we got a tweet out or something that that her hat, because the hat is like There's a photo online of you and I here with it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah, there is, strangely.
+
+[1:11] Who did that? I don't know. Me? It is a it is a fantastic Christmas hat. It is completely unrelated to the phenomenon of the ugless ugly Christmas sweater, of which you also have several.
+
+[1:24] Yes. Yes. But this is actually a legit awesome Christmas hat. It turns her entire head into a festive Christmas tree. Yeah.
+
+[1:33] Totally covering the sourness that comes out of the mouth attached to the hat. Whoa, wow. Whoa. Wow. Oh, and Merry Christmas.
+
+[1:43] Merry Christmas joined in the booth with our good buddy, Jackie Molecules. What's up? Jack Inslee. How's it going? It's great.
+
+[1:51] I'm in a really, really, really good mood because the cooking issues listeners have gone like above and beyond with their donations to the network, and uh it it's awesome. Nice. It's so awesome. They really represented so well. There are too many of them for me to even shout out.
+
+[1:59] It's crazy. Um but just know that every time those come in, we're everybody in the team is like super, super stoked and and we can't thank you all enough. Awesome. Awesome. So uh I just came from a by the way, so we're recording this on Monday instead of on Tuesday, because uh Nastasia has to go up to Boston uh tomorrow.
+
+[2:28] To get a why why are you flying out of Boston? Don't get me started. Like you know, like I I thought you were going to Boston to go to Boston. No. Getting a flight.
+
+[2:37] From Boston? Yep. Let me guess, $50 cheaper. No, a lot cheaper. But how much cheaper?
+
+[2:42] Like $150 cheaper. How much is it costing you to get to Boston? It's $30 on the bus. So so I'm gonna do this math here. What's your time worth?
+
+[2:51] So $120. By the way, if you want if you want Nastasia to throw away four hours of her time in each direction. No, I fly back into New York. Oh, okay. Alright, alright, whatever.
+
+[3:04] I don't even want to get me started. Don't even start it. Uh so you'll enjoy this, Nastasia. So uh earlier today I had to do a series of videos for Vox for the Museum of Food and Drink. All right, it's part of our contractual obligation with Infinity.
+
+[3:19] Uh and you know, food science demos. No one asked me to just sit around and talk about I don't know, something. It's always like some sort of tech and sciencey stuff, right? So they said, hey, you know, yeah, let's, you know, we're gonna do liquid nitrogen. I'm like, really?
+
+[3:32] Really? Jack, you know what? I'm like, really? You know how many times I've done the liquid nitrogen demo, Jack? Yeah.
+
+[3:37] So many. Many. And uh so I figured I was gonna mix it up a little bit. Stas, you're gonna like this, you're gonna want to pay attention. You already heard you already heard?
+
+[3:44] Of course. Well, Peter ruins everything. He's supposed to come on the show, Peter from uh Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. He's like, Oh, yeah, I'll come on the show. He's like, No, I'm busy, man.
+
+[3:51] Not busy. He sucks all of my time this morning. He's gonna suck all of my time this afternoon. He's too busy to come on the radio show with us. Instead, just calls and ruins the surprise for you.
+
+[4:00] But you folks here haven't heard it yet. So here's what it is. So I'm like, you know what? Liquid nitrogen, as we all know, is amazing, but it has three main safety issues. One, it can it's cold burns, right?
+
+[4:11] You could get cold burns from it, and that could either be from ingesting it, which you should never ever ever do, or from you know, getting it poured onto your pants or some other thing, right? Uh you know, you can get it on your hand, you know, because the leidenfrost effect, it'll just roll off, won't do anything, but you know, there's cold burns is there. Asphyxiation is a big one. Remember Mirvold almost killed himself in his car with liquid nitrogen, and so we have all these safety rules against asphyxiation. But the other one is Jack, any guesses?
+
+[4:36] You know this one? Nope. Explosions! Oh yeah. So you can do the explosion noise again.
+
+[4:41] So Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, years ago, and we always talk about it, there was a German cook who took liquid nitrogen in a sealed container home from the restaurant, and it exploded in his girlfriend's bathroom and like took off one of his legs, one of his hands, most of the other hand, put him in a coma, etc. etc. Because the pressure just keeps building and building and building, right?
+
+[5:03] But I've never actually done the demo. Because I've always wanted to do the demo, right? So I take, I swear to God, the name of this stuff. So I'm I'm like, I'm like, listen, we're gonna blow up, you know, we're we're not in front of a big audience. We're just we're gonna blow up uh a plastic bottle with liquid nitrogen to show how dangerous it is, right?
+
+[5:23] So I take this thing, it's called harmless water. You heard of this? Harmless water, it's some sort of one of these coconut waters. But it's in a non-carbonated bottle, right? So it shouldn't be a problem.
+
+[5:33] You know what I mean? So anyway, so I'm like, eh, meh. So I get, I'm like, I'll get a cambro, because cambros are made out of uh, you know, uh polycarbonate, they're strong, and that stuff's not supposed to shatter, it's supposed to bend because it's made out of polycarbonate. Okay. So, okay, I get a big uh cambro, I get this little harmless water, right?
+
+[5:51] And some liquid nitrogen, and you know, I have safety goggles and all this. So I pour the liquid nitrogen into the harmless water container, and I screw it and I quickly dump it quickly in into the cambro, and then I back off and go down, right? So that my eyes aren't over the top of the thing. And I was like, nothing happened. Like literally, nothing happened.
+
+[6:11] So I like tap the thing, nothing. Slosh it around, nothing, nothing. Finally, I swear, and then like it's it's nervous. Do you ever light fireworks in your kids' dollars? I never let them know.
+
+[6:21] Jack? No. Really? No. I feel like we've all been raised on crazy.
+
+[6:28] I they were around. I never let them. Okay, okay. So anyway, so anyway, if you light a firework and it doesn't go off, you're in a dangerous situation. Like that's what you do.
+
+[6:36] You don't want that. If you light a firework, you want it to go off. Because a dud, you have to go dispose of a dud, and it might not be a dud, it might come on and like shoot you in the eye or burn the whatever. You get me. So I'm in a fi I'm in a dud firework situation here, right?
+
+[6:50] We're talking like a minute and a half later, and all of a sudden, uh part of this is these harmless water bottles are A, obviously not harmless, and B much stronger than for instance, Fiji water bottles, which I know I can blow up with a measly like hundred and 110 PSI. Because I've done that. I've held a Fiji water bottle and exploded it while I was carbonating in it, like, you know, anyway. So all of a sudden, this bottle starts freaking growing, like growing and like starting to look more like a watermelon. And I'm like, eh.
+
+[7:19] And it was when it finally went, it shattered the can it first of all, the bottle like disintegrated like a balloon. The cambro freaking shattered and sent cambro pieces everywhere. And it was the loudest. It was like shooting off like like three or four shotguns all at the same time. Thank God they got it.
+
+[7:40] I was like, I was like, we're gonna run a test, but you're gonna film this because I might never do it again. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the video, it's horrifying, but so again, you do no one out there needs to try this. The video is horrifying, but kind of hilarious because what you see is you see me looking at it, trying to figure out what's going on, then you see the explosion, and then like a second later, I'm like, oh, and I fall over.
+
+[8:00] Like that would help. Anyways. So keep your eyes out for that video. I don't know if they're gonna actually put that section of it in there, but you know, you know how I like to do the I like to do the what not to do in a semi-controlled environment. Very important.
+
+[8:14] Very important. Although, Jack, do you know how many times? And I've said this before, and I've told people not to do this. You know how many times I've done demos where I'm like absolutely never do what I'm about to do, and then they leave out that part and just have me doing the bad thing. It's happened to me so many times.
+
+[8:28] Every time I do it, Nastashi sits there and she shakes her head back and forth. She's like, How many times is it gonna take before you learn? Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[8:35] It's because nothing really bad has happened. Well, I'm gonna edit an episode of this show, Dave, and just um things that you say not to do. But I'll take out the disclaimer, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave's top ten tips for the year.
+
+[8:47] Look who's back. What do you mean? Oh, oh, uh, yeah, oh, it's a Satan's little uh Santa's little uh hipster. Santa's little hipster. The uh, you know, we we we uh for those of you just uh tuning in for the first time to our show, we enjoy poking fun at the friendly uh staff of Robert's uh as does everyone, right, Jack?
+
+[9:03] I mean it's all it's all love. It's all love. Um I have been really hurt. What do you mean? That's why my wife doesn't trust me anymore.
+
+[9:11] Yeah. No, I lit myself on fire. It's been a while since you really hurt yourself. It's been a while since I really damaged myself, yes. Yeah, if you unless you count slipping with the with the maul and shoving it through my toe or any of those other things.
+
+[9:24] But that didn't well, I wasn't cooking at the time. It's been a long time since I've entered in the kitchen. Yeah. Is that true? Didn't I slice myself open recently?
+
+[9:32] That was yeah. But I was cooking at home. That was when I was in the basement. I made my Christmas cookies yesterday. Yeah.
+
+[9:40] Yeah. Do you make Christmas cookies anymore, Sas? Or were you ruined that one time that we tried to make all those Christmas cookies for the trees? My parents do, I don't make any. Oh my god, what kind of Christmas cookies do your parents make?
+
+[9:49] Sugar. Just sugar? And fudge. Do you like fudge? Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:54] Really? Mm-hmm. For real. Mm-hmm. Do you actually enjoy eating fudge?
+
+[9:57] Jack, fudge? Yeah. Really? I do. Small doses.
+
+[10:02] There you go. Small doses. And they see you've actually hit a thing that I like it, like I can have small doses, but I would never be like, I'm gonna tuck into this giant block of fudge. Oh god, no. No.
+
+[10:11] You know what I mean? But I've seen people do it. Like I could eat an entire tray of brownies. Yes. But I only want like a little bit of fudge.
+
+[10:20] And if we had this conversation, what kind of brownies are you guys? Are you guys the dense brownie people or are you cake brownie people? Dense for me. Dance. Dance dance.
+
+[10:27] I like them both. I like them both. Noncommittal. But I nuts or no nuts. Um I like nuts in a brownie, but I would always choose not nuts.
+
+[10:38] Okay. Like I I I don't mind it. I don't mind the taste of it, but the problem is is that they can get a little soggy. And to me, a brownie should be almost uni textural. I don't really need textural variation in my brownie.
+
+[10:51] So like no chocolate chips. You know, a lot of brownies have like chocolate chips in them. Yeah, not mine. Unnecessary. Yeah, no.
+
+[10:57] No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like chocolate chips. And I like brownies, but I don't need them in the same stitch. What about you, Saz? Yeah.
+
+[11:06] I can go either way. You know what? You know what else I'm not a huge fan. I like it fine, but I'm not a huge fan of it. I'm not a huge fan of the hyper like solid block of chocolate poured on top of the brownie thing.
+
+[11:16] Yeah. Or the frosting y stuff. What about fudge on top of a brownie? It's a lot. It's like it's a lot.
+
+[11:21] It's a lot, a lot. In other words, there's something about a brownie, even a dense brownie, that allows you to eat almost an unlimited amount of it. And I don't know what that is. You know what I mean? As opposed to like fudge, which fudge is self-limiting.
+
+[11:33] You're like, you eat a little bit, you're like, okay, I'm done now. That was good. Yep. Now I am done. So uh anyway, so that kind of leads me in.
+
+[11:39] So the cookies that I make, I'm always make three cookies. I make sugar cookies because the kids like to use the we use the gun, the spritz gun. Mm-hmm. You like those? No, I've never used one.
+
+[11:49] You know the secret? What? Right onto the aluminum pan. Because otherwise you'll pull up the parchment or whatever. Anyways.
+
+[11:56] Um and the dough has to be the right temperature. But yeah, they love the gun. They make they always make the same damn rosette, and then they try to make the Scotty dog. We have Scotty dogs, rosettes, Christmas trees, but the all the shapes always end up messed up. The rosettes, it doesn't really matter because they if they bleed, they bleed into circles, so who cares?
+
+[12:11] Anyways. Um I make those, I make the almonds. Remember the Rick Victorelli's that I make? I make those. I burnt out actually my nyxtomatic.
+
+[12:20] Like the motor came back on, but I was trying to grind all the almonds in my Nyx Domatica Nixtaball maker, and it was rocking, and then all of a sudden it stalled and went poof and smoke came out of the back of it. I was like, no! Cause how when's the next time I'm gonna go to Mexico? And I would give up my my corn grinder just because I was trying to be a bonehead and making almond cookies. That sounds like some stupid crap I would do, right?
+
+[12:41] It is, yeah. Yeah. Uh and then I make the I make these cookies that like theoretically they're not good, but they're like my favorite cookie, and everyone also seems to kind of like them. Is that is it these cookies that are like my great great grandma's recipe from like the 1800s? They're like a you know, like black and white cookies aren't really cookies, they're little cakes with icing.
+
+[13:01] These are like that, but they're chocolate and they're made with clabbered milk. And so you make a clabbered milk and you put this chocolate icing over the top called bonbons, but they're really dry, so you have to drink something with them, but you keep eating them and eating them and eating them. You know cookies like that? No. Do you like those Italian hyper dry like vanilla cookies with ice?
+
+[13:19] This is what my grandma makes, she's Sicilian, yeah. Well, love those, don't you? Lose, you just keep drinking and drinking like water with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see, yet you still want more.
+
+[13:26] Yep. Weird. Weird. Anyway, that's what I did. Nice.
+
+[13:30] Oh. And I got back from China. We haven't talked about China. Oh, yeah. Centerfuge.
+
+[13:34] We have a lot of stuff to talk about. I know. That's why we don't need collars. I saw you said that Chinese takeout in China tastes like Chinese takeout here. Oh, yeah.
+
+[13:41] Well, also when I said that, I was quite disappointed because I was supposed to have gone to this like awesome uh Sichuan restaurant where this where the waiters know how to like they can do that mask trick where they change their their opera masks like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And instead, the meeting ran late because it turns out it takes a long time to explain to people how to build a centrifuge. And so instead I got like this little thing of Chinese takeout, and I was like, I can't believe this. And then when I ate it, I was like, I can't, I cannot believe this. This tastes like I walked across the freaking street, you know, to like the local Chinese takeout and you know, got their, you know, local.
+
+[14:21] It was like it's crazy. It was comforting for me to hear though. Yeah? Yeah, I think so. All right.
+
+[14:26] Yeah. I mean, like, you know, um, I mean, I had a lot of good, I had a lot of good, good, good, interesting, interesting food on there. Like, I think I said also on the Twitter, like I had some really cool steamed bun varieties that you don't get over your um or that I have never had before. So I need to do some investigation on that. I'm thinking, I don't really have any time, but uh, you know, one of the things I'm interested in is uh starches.
+
+[14:49] So like being over there really made me think I need to up my starch game. So I want to like uh I'm gonna start categorizing there's a I I have a couple technical books now on starches I need to read to get a handle on it because you ever notice that people they say the same if you if you look up people's descriptions of different starches and what they're good for and what they're not good for, they're always extremely vague. Do you ever do that? You stu you probably do that. I hate starches.
+
+[15:14] What? I hate the sound it makes. Oh, oh, oh. But you love starches. You like noodles.
+
+[15:20] Oh, you mean like star, yeah. Yeah. So but anyways, but like the like most of the most of the you know, popular writing on using different varieties, for instance, like you know, you got you got your sweet potato, you got your your water chestnut, you got your caltrop, which is the other kind of water chestnut, which is a they're entirely different species. You got you there's a zillion different starches. You got your tapiocas, your potatoes, and but not even to mention your modern or modified starches.
+
+[15:46] So anyway, I want to go through that before I really get into the kind of like bun thing. I want to go through kind of a starch, a starch uh extravaganza. And there's actually uh there's an interesting book from 1919, I think, that has like these lunatics just took a pictures of like five hundred different starches. It's on the internet. Maybe I'll post a link to it so people can see like this like starch that that person didn't give a rat's behind about cooking.
+
+[16:10] Anyway, uh look forward to hearing more or don't to hearing more because remember you know at Clefs who writes in sometimes uh on the Twitter he's from Japan or lives in Japan. He came up with this interesting problem. You ready for it? I'm gonna try and tackle this probably not over the break I won't have time but he I think it was buckwheat either buckwheat or rye I can't remember wants to make something the texture of fresh mozzarella made out of that with the flavor the flavor of I forget whether it was rye or buckwheat texture of fresh mozzarella. And I was like you know what that sounds like it would be good.
+
+[16:40] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And I think I know how to do it. It's like a mixture of like soy milk, cashew cheese, uh LBG kappa, and like I gotta figure out how to get the the the the flavor of the buckwheat without having too much of an additional starch. Anyway, I'm working on it.
+
+[16:57] Just pe just so you people know I'm working on it. Is there any way to set up like a like a like an open source like where like you're like this is the thing you have to do to include the information like I'm gonna come up with like standardized starch recipes to test out the different starch things and then you know uh uh do them and then I could I there's no way I could have other people I don't know I'm sure that exists. I don't know how to do it. I'm just terrible at communication with people that's a thing. What are you doing for Christmas does?
+
+[17:25] Going home for two days two days two days huh? Long way to go for two days. Out to out to LA well not really, Covina. Land of Goodburger. What about you, Senior molecules?
+
+[17:36] What are you doing for the holiday? I drive to Long Island for the night. Yeah. That's it. Alright all right, let's take some questions.
+
+[17:43] Uh hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and the rest of the crew. It's just us today. It's just us, Alex, uh, from the Bay Area. Up near where you went to college there, Stas. Mm-hmm.
+
+[17:52] You have any love for the Bay Area? I hate the Bay Area. Alrighty. What do you really think about it? Merry Christmas, Bay Area, people.
+
+[17:57] Nastasia hates you. Uh I have a question regarding pressure cookers and induction cooktops. I had a Fayor duo earlier. Yes, yes, I'm aware that they don't make a great stock as I read from your cooking as great of a stock uh as I read in a cooking issues primer. But I was thinking of maybe getting a giant mason jar uh of sorts and sticking the bones and trapping all of that uh within the lid if that was a possible method of retaining more flavor.
+
+[18:19] Uh it is. Uh in fact, modernist cuisine does that um all the time. They were the first people I think to sh you know demonstrate that to me is the idea that if you don't have a sealed pressure cooker, you can just seal things inside of something into pressure cooker, and it's you know, same, same, same. Umfortunately, I also live in an apartment that has a rather terribly old electric stove. Uh I was wondering if buying a single separate induction top would be advisable since it may offer better controls.
+
+[18:48] And if so, are there any recommended brands? Uh yeah, they're awesome. I love them. I don't have any like kind of brands. Uh I have had some dye on me, but I think they just get better and better.
+
+[18:59] The main problem with induction cooktops, frankly, is uh the the inexpensive ones. I mean you could buy really expensive ones. How much was the one what did we end up selling ours for, Stas? 800, 900. Yeah, but that's a real one.
+
+[19:10] You know what I mean? Like uh like two twenty or whatever. It doesn't, you know, you need a separate uh the ones that go into one ten. The problem that people have with it, and it a lot depends on how old you are and how good your hearing is, because they make this horrible noise. Does the noise bother you, Stasi?
+
+[19:26] Yes, I hate it. Yeah. Jack, are you ever you know what I'm talking about? Nope. Yeah.
+
+[19:30] So like every inexpensive induction burner that I've ever used just goes. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so, like, if you're like me, like an old fart that can't hear worth spit anyway, like it doesn't really matter. It doesn't bother me so much, but you know, Nastasia like like can't stand that.
+
+[19:53] It's like hearing an ice cube that's like on metal. Or no, remember the the uh dry ice on on the hotel pan? Yeah. Yes, that's horrible. Man, I used to love turning on the uh ultrasonic homogene uh homogenizer and watching everybody run.
+
+[20:07] And you know, there's gotta be some benefits to listen to too much loud music in your headphones for years, and it's I can I can be around things that are unpleasant constantly. I mean, look, I do it every day. Oh, boom. Nice. Uh uh if so, what are recommended brands?
+
+[20:23] My other question is in regards to the instant pot and all the other electric pressure cookers that were on sale recently from Black Friday. I don't know the instant pot, do you, Stas? No. Jack, have you heard of the Instant Pot? Nope.
+
+[20:34] Hmm. I don't know the instant pot. But I have used electric pressure cookers. In fact, I know the designer of the Cuisanart uh electric pressure cooker, and I think they are convenient and they're they're good and and you don't have to the one of the things you have to worry about, although it's not as big a deal with an induction uh um top, is just uh remembering to throttle the um throttle it down so it doesn't, you know, um doesn't s scorch or or over pressurize. Um my issue with the electrics, I think they're very convenient.
+
+[21:02] I'm you know, mine blew up eventually. Not not exploded, d died. That's more, you know, didn't explode. Because I've had that happen too, as Stuzz remembers. That was around Christmas time when we blew up that pressure cooker, right?
+
+[21:13] Uh huh. And we had a stock fountain. Yeah. Awesome. Good times.
+
+[21:17] Um so the problem is they are a slightly lower pressure, so you'll need to recalibrate your recipes, and I really prefer to cook at 15 Psi uh then I think I forget what they those a lot of those run, they run like seven. I don't know why they run lower. I think part of the problem is is that they're not actually judging pressure. They're actually controlling the temperature and they're controlling the temperature a little bit higher, and I think that's really the reason. And that's why I was able to take uh my electric pressure cooker and fool it into getting a higher pressure by just altering the sensor so that it was wrong in the temperature and it jacked it up to the normal pressures that you want to use.
+
+[21:51] Now again, that voids any warranty, but it it it does work. The other problem with the electric pressure cookers, frankly, is is that a lot of times, like uh and uh, you know, I use Coon Recon, uh, but it was a gift, I didn't have to pay for it. And uh it's a good pot though. So the good thing about a good pressure cooker pot that's not like uh an electric kettle is that usually you can get the pot itself up to really high temperatures really quickly over a normal sort of a stove, and so it allows you to like, you know, um it allows you to saute the onions first, or if you're gonna do a pre-sear or like brown the meat beforehand or something like this, that's a huge advantage, whereas I always found that with my electric pressure cooker, I would have to brown the meat or do the onions somewhere else because it was just taking for freaking ever. And who wants to sit around for whole point of the pressure cooker a lot, not always, but a lot of the time the point of a pressure cooker is I can have something done in like 15, 20 minutes.
+
+[22:44] And so who wants to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the onions to freaking saute so that you can then have a pressure cooker thing done in 20 minutes? That it's like doubling the freaking time it takes to make something. Who wants that? Do you want that stuff? No.
+
+[22:54] No. Do you but you don't have a pressure cooker, do you? Why? You don't cook that way? You don't do braces?
+
+[22:59] No, I don't. Do you not like braces? Usually one for one person. So by the way, Stas is like trying to do some sort of like Christmasy blues crap. Nastasia, every day of the week, Nastashi's like, I gotta get home because I'm cooking for like 30 people.
+
+[23:18] They're in my house. What does that take? Like, that's what I'm saying. The pressure cooker's 20 minutes, 20 freaking minutes is what I'm trying to tell you. It's just it seems like a lot of work.
+
+[23:27] Seems like a lot of work. If any listener wants to send Nastasia a secret Santa gift. No. No. No.
+
+[23:34] Wow. No. Wow. Wow. Wow.
+
+[23:39] Yeah. Okay. Let me see here. Got a question in three related questions. And we're supposed to have the questions from last week, but like with this whole blowing things up at the thing, I you know where I'm all discombobed by it.
+
+[23:52] So these are the questions I have. Um one of the amazing things about low temp cooking has been uh being part of the online community that has put in so many hours working on and sharing techniques and ideas. The technique has been largely ignored by the cookbook publishing world, and they're saying are there about four books? Is that true? I don't know.
+
+[24:07] There's the Thomas Keller, there's the original one Roka book. Uh there's Modernist Cuisine, Modernist at Home. What do they have now? They also have they have Modernist in the Small Cafe, Modernist in the Bar. Modernist in the Bar, Modernist in the Uh Kidding.
+
+[24:21] Uh yours may be Well, no, I don't have Kenji's book has some uh stuff in it. Uh I'm sure the ideas and food uh guys have some in their books. Oh, what about uh there's a couple? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Ideas and food.
+
+[24:38] Oh. Yeah. Uh I don't know. I'm sure there's more, but you're right. There's not as many as there could be.
+
+[24:43] There's a there's also some European ones, but pfft. Well the the the Roka one's a European one. There's that weird German one where the temperatures were like twice as high as they should be. Remember that one? No.
+
+[24:55] Anyway. Uh it's a long time ago. Anyway, the uniqueness of the tur uh term um is it, what is it? Ignored by the cookbook publishing. The uniqueness of the term is allowed the online community to connect and build a body of knowledge that we can now benefit from.
+
+[25:07] I agree that Sous vide uh as a word is a low quality description for low temperature cooking. However, it is impossible to Google low temp techniques and temperatures. That's true, I guess. Uh is it worth giving up the benefit we have received from the term in order just to bow to accuracy? I don't know.
+
+[25:24] Uh I never say it. But again, yeah, you're right. Like I have benefited from Google search analytics with things like cooking issues with as one word or like Booker and DAX. Uh yeah, I mean look, it's too late. I've like I I've been saying this for a long time.
+
+[25:38] It's too late to to go back and, you know, not have had relations with the dog on this one. It's like, you know, um I I just think it's it's bad because it's not it's like not accurate. It's less important now, I guess, because people know it all, but it was really a big deal when l restaurants were getting uh you know fines and shut down for using Sous vide and people were confusing the two techniques because l low temperature cooking with a circulator uh that had no actual regulations on it. Uh it was just a vacuum machine that had the regulation, so it was dragging an entire set of techniques into like a like a kettle of nasty hot water when it didn't need to be. And I think, you know, especially when I was talking to Philip Preston back in the day uh and uh other people, I was like, why are you marketing a why are you marketing a cooking a piece of cooking equipment that can be used without a vacuum machine and you're hanging the name of it and the name of the technique on this other much more expensive piece of equipment that you don't need to invest in right away?
+
+[26:44] So it just doesn't make any doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying um, you know, i it would be like only having the word for sunglasses be driving glasses, so that you felt that you had to go buy a freaking automobile just to use a pair of freaking glasses, and it's not the case. That's not really a good analogy, but I'm coming up with it on the top of my head. It's like no you don't need a vacuum machine for uh low temp cooking or for a circulator, so why would you tie the terms together? But again, I've lost so whatever.
+
+[27:13] You know, you can't turns out not only can you not win them all, you can't really win any of them. Do you know what I mean? Just can't win. Um, does Nastasia hate rabbits? No.
+
+[27:25] I mean, well, to eat. Yeah, pets or eating. Uh it's fine to eat too. What are you doing? You have no thoughts when we're gonna do that.
+
+[27:33] No, I haven't eaten it enough. But it's fine. I will eat it. I got a rabbit sausage once from Heritage Foods is one of the best things that I made like a pasta with it. It was so good.
+
+[27:43] It's a strong plug, Jack. That's good. Thanks. Just working that right in there. You didn't even have the question ahead of time, right?
+
+[27:48] Nope. Nice. Um so there, no, Nastasia does not hate rabbits. Alive or dead. Unless they're served with biscuits, in which case she hates it.
+
+[27:58] Ooh, like a like a rabbit sausage, egg and cheese on a biscuit. Sounds good. Does except for no biscuits. No biscuits. Yeah, you're crazy.
+
+[28:07] She really is straight up nuts. It just doesn't make any sense. How about Yorkshire pudding? I've not had that. What is that?
+
+[28:13] Well, it's not really a biscuit. It's like you when you take when you do you like prime rib at Christmas time? Mm-hmm. Jack, do you like a prime rib at Christmas time? Yeah.
+
+[28:20] I think I might have prime rib or Christmas time this year. So what you do is is when you uh cook the prime rib in traditional way, or if you do uh if you do low temper insurance and then do a roast off on it, you get the drippings into the pan, right? So you have these fat drippings in the thing. And then you basically take a um what we used to call like a Dutch baby mix, which is like a thin pancakey batter whipped up with a bunch of eggs, and you dump it into the pan with the grease, and it just puffs up into this like beef grease pop over. It's like it's like it's like it's like one giant popover dot com.
+
+[28:56] So you like pop so you like popovers. I do like popovers. So you're not a total enemy of quality. Jack, you like popovers, right? Yeah.
+
+[29:05] Is there anyone that doesn't like a popover? Hard to find. What's the matter? Isn't it the same chair you've been using for like a billion years? I think it or somebody big sat in it.
+
+[29:14] Did somebody big sit in Nastasia's chair? I can't say uncomfortable. Wow. You've been you've literally sat in this chair for almost 200 episodes. Blown out.
+
+[29:23] It might be this one that's usually here, and this one this one's over there. Jack. Donate to Heritage Radio today and help us buy new chairs. Yeah, Nastasia's Nastasia's butt well, thank you. Yeah.
+
+[29:34] Uh back to rabbits. That said, the online community has failed me completely when it comes to rabbits. This is all from by the way, from uh James 5 on. So I I think that's probably Jameson with a five. It's like that's the password.
+
+[29:47] Anyway. Yep. Uh I bought a rabbit at Union Square over the weekend. Uh went to stew the saddle, want to stew the saddle later, but I'm first looking to low temp confide the legs. Online temperatures and times are all over the map.
+
+[29:59] Blog commenters complain about pasty on every uh almost every site I have found making any recommendations. I saw a forum post claiming that modernist cuisine calls for 66 degrees Celsius for one hour. Uh that's high. Other sites were doing uh tests around 60 to 64 Celsius, but all with an ongoing conversation about time and claiming that too long and the meat goes pasty. What do you think about the word pasty?
+
+[30:24] Don't like it. Don't like it. Do you like it? No. What about like pateashoo?
+
+[30:31] No, don't like it. No. We know what a pasty is. Yeah. Are you from are you all all of a sudden you're from that area of the country?
+
+[30:37] Where were you from? From Long Island, but I went uh I went up to the Upper Peninsula this summer. Yeah in uh Michigan, and I had uh like a traditional pasty. So some meat pies? Yeah.
+
+[30:47] Were they good? It was really good. What were the crust like? Was the crust flaky or oily? It was a little bit flaky, like oily, like exud.
+
+[30:54] Oh, I love a pot pie. Yeah. Okay, Stas. Yes. Pot pie?
+
+[30:58] Like papay, yeah. Okay, so you like b hate biscuits, but like pie crusts. No, I don't like the crust of a hot pie. What the what? Oh man.
+
+[31:10] No way. Yeah, you break it up, is the uh no, you know what? Well, first of all, I like a traditional freaking pot pie. Here's what I don't want. I don't want you to take a hotel pan, throw some crumbly crust bits on top of the pot pie mix and say that you served me a pot pie.
+
+[31:25] Oh, no way. That is garbage. Garbage. Pot pie. I remember when I was a kid.
+
+[31:32] I used to put myself on fad diets when I was a kid. I don't know. Like literally, like I would do I would like not eat all day. I used to you know what I used to eat a lot of when I was a kid? Steak'ems.
+
+[31:43] Remember steakhums? Steakhums are like they're like fake cheesesteak meat. It's like pulped, pulped beef that they spray onto a piece of wax paper and then freeze solid. So bad. Yes.
+
+[31:55] You literally what you have to do is you have to take it apart frozen because otherwise it just disintegrates it back into meat paste again. And you stick it on your on your electric skillet because invariably these are made with electric skillets from the 70s. And then they kind of shrivel up and they solidify into these kind of like cheesesteak things. Anyway, so I had everything like exactly sussed out. I was like X number of slices of American cheese, X amount of sauteed onions, X number of steakums on this particular roll with mayo and ketchup was like right at this number.
+
+[32:28] I forget what the number was, but I had it right dialed in and it would be all I ate. Why? All day. Because I was an idiot. Anyways, I wouldn't even on this.
+
+[32:37] What are we talking about? Pot pies. We started with it. So I remember I looked up like how many calories were in a pot pie, and I was like, oh my God. And you know what then I realized?
+
+[32:48] Calorie counting's for the birds. Crap on that. It was all done. I was like, you know what? And you know, have you ever read the book Catching Fire?
+
+[32:55] No. Uh how how cooking made people human or whatever. It's interesting, but they you know, they talk about a lot of things. You know, one of the things that's a hundred percent true is every calorie counting mechanism that is used is complete garbage. And, you know, they you know, this person actually has uh rangum, I think is his name, actually has real data to back it up.
+
+[33:14] Whereas I always use this simple thought experiment. Have I said this one before on the air? I don't know. If you take uh Jack, and you can do this over the holidays. If you take a gallon of oil, right, and you calculate how many calories were in a gallon of oil, you'd gain a good amount of weight, right?
+
+[33:29] If calories were actually calories. If you could actually absorb all the calories that you eat in an equally potential way, right? Swallowing a gallon of oil would be a problematic. However, if you swallow a gallon of oil, you just crap a gallon of oil out. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[33:45] And now he says it in the book in a much more kind of your like smoothie and juicing thing. I think juicing, though, you're gonna absorb a lot more. So like I actually absorb less than I guess the average person because I wolf things down. Nastashi says that I'm inhuman. So like all chunks of uh like, you know.
+
+[34:01] Anyway, his main point is that raw food diets are literally like, you know, even uh a very rich uh Western city dweller can barely survive on a raw food diet in terms because they have to eat so much more because you're the foods the unless you cook it, the food's not really available to your body, so they have to eat so much more. So his point is is that and this is why it's how cooking made us human is that there's no way that modern humans could have existed based on a uh a raw diet, because he says chimps have to spend like like almost a third of their day chewing things because they're eating raw, raw food and they have to eat so much of it and they have to chew the hell out of it. How the hell do we get on this? Pot pies. Uh detour was from pasty.
+
+[34:44] That was my fault. Oh, yeah, all right. Well, no, it's it's always my fault, Jack. It's never your fault. Oh, meat goes pasty.
+
+[34:50] Yeah. Uh anyway, uh if time is so important, doesn't that mean that they are cooking so hot uh that you might as well use an oven and not really low temperature? Why would the rabbit be unique in requiring such a specific time requirement, unless we were getting the temps wrong? And do you have any suggestions on time or temps? Furthermore, even traditional confíe recipes do not seem to agree.
+
+[35:08] I've seen people insisting that you keep the oven under 210 degrees, and others calling for 350 and even 375. Times vary from two hours to ten. Uh is the time uh if the time is such a factor on the low temp, why is there no talk of pasty in the oven methods? Thanks for uh for your help. Uh Jameson, Jamie Five Sun.
+
+[35:25] Uh JV5 on. Five on. Uh anyways, uh here's why. Um you don't notice the pastiness in a piece of meat when you simply overcook it, right? So the classic pasty meat that you get is uh tenderloin.
+
+[35:38] Any kind of tenderloin, if you cook it for too long, even without overcooking it, it tends to go pasty. And that's because the muscle doesn't actually have any real structure of its own. That's the problem. So uh things l things like beef tenderloin are always described when they're cooked too long as pasty. Um and I haven't done a lot of rabbit low temp, but I guess rabbit has the same kind of of an issue.
+
+[36:00] Anything that, like I say, is like very low in in connective tissue. I think that uh chicken, especially if it's vacuum bagged and cooked too long, goes uh kind of pasty or fibrousy. It's almost the fibers like become almost separated so that when you eat it, you get all this liquid at once, but then it turns into like a mush of fibers in your mouth as you chew it. And it's because the meat doesn't have too much structure of its own. That's the real problem.
+
+[36:24] So uh that's what they're talking about, and it doesn't happen in traditional cooking because you just usually undercook the inside and overcook the outside, and overcooking it just makes it hard, so it doesn't make it pasty. That's why it really only happens in these situations where you can get large pieces of meat that are all the same cooking temperature throughout it, that you really notice the phenomenon. Um anyways, so that the trick is is that you want to minimize uh also I think duck can get pasty. Duck can also go livery. So some the the two faults that you get with certain kinds of meats by cooking them too long, even at the proper temperature, is a fibrousness or pastiness.
+
+[36:59] Sometimes, like I say, it's more fiber, sometimes it's more paste. The worst also is like things like shrimp sometimes have an enzymatic reaction in them at low temperatures where they just turn to almost literally a paste that's completely unedible when you cook it for too long. Um so those are the ones that are really kind of time limited. And it it applies to the lower time, lower uh, you know, part of the of the temperature scale, like where you're not going all the way to a braise, but you're in like kind of the lower temperature. It's usually meats that ha are low in connective tissue.
+
+[37:32] Um on the pastiness. On the livery side, it's usually um like duck can go livery if you cook it too long. Things like especially uh really terrible are like cuts of beef that like don't have a lot of fat or structure like I have round in them, they tend to go livery and nasty when you when you cook them too long. Um and so that's why I tend to not really cook things like tenderloin low temp uh unless you're doing like a wellington or something like this and you need to just cook it through really quickly. But I try to keep all of those times on things that go pasty under an hour.
+
+[38:06] Um and you can do that in a couple of ways. So if you have something that's thick, you can uh you have to figure it out, but you can basically set your water bath a little bit higher than you actually want the center to be and then pull it um a little bit early before the thing gets up. Or you know, you can do you know any number of things like that, but it is problematic. It's best to try to keep pieces of things that go pasty in ways that you can cook them in under an hour. I've never really noticed any piece of meat going pasty in less than an hour.
+
+[38:36] Um anyway, that answered that question or not? A little bit. When you describe that shrimp turning into paste, it was really sickening. Yeah. Oh man, you know what?
+
+[38:45] I used to do that as a demo when I was teaching at the FCI. I would do that as a demo, and then all of a sudden one day I I wasn't able to uh reliably make the disgusting paste anymore. But it was so bad. And you know, for any of you who've been to one of my demos, if I make something on purpose that's crappy, I make you eat it. The point being that you well, you're supposed to know what happens, right?
+
+[39:05] You don't want to just take someone's freaking word for it. And so, you know, I used to enjoy watching people put it in their mouth and then everyone would spit it out because the texture was just like repulsive. Uh, but you know, alas, I was not able to. Hey, you know what I had that's not repulsive? So uh I'm not gonna name any names because that would be rude, but it's a three-star restaurant, Michelin Star restaurant in Tokyo called Jiro.
+
+[39:30] Nice. Not gonna mention who it is though, but maybe it's Jiro. Anyway, so Nastasia and I had, I believe, it was good. I had a good time. But stas, was that the worst the worst dish you've ever had at a Michelin-starred restaurant in your life?
+
+[39:44] Really? Yeah, yeah. The single worst dish I've ever had at a Michelin starred restaurant was this uh mantis shrimp that uh that I was we were served that was paste. It was basically somehow like it was cooked mantis shrimp and it had turned to kind of this granular paste. And it was just vile, right?
+
+[40:08] Mm-hmm. Remember that? You can tell by the look on your face that you remember it like, yeah. Uh also the most expensive. But uh the anyway, so the point is is that uh here in the US, we don't I don't really see live mantis shrimp that often.
+
+[40:20] And f how do I describe what a mantis shrimp looks like? It looks like imagine like a cross between a lobster and a centipede, but big. Wow. You know what I mean? Is that accurate?
+
+[40:29] Yeah, it's kind of like a C centipede. Anyway, um, but okay. Yeah, it was because it had been cooked and then frozen or something and then thawed, and then it was just like it was like Chiro, huh? Yeah, yeah. Jiro dreams of pasty mantis shrimp, apparently.
+
+[40:46] But the um so anywho, so and I've bought mantis shrimp frozen here in the US, and they're just freaking awful. Like a one time buy, because I used to I once tried one, I was doing uh, you know, like a Capino, and so I buy a bunch of stuff to throw into the Capino. So I'm like, ah, well, put a mantis shrimp in, why not? Wretching, wretching. Um terrible.
+
+[41:08] So in China, uh, and apparently it's like only been the rage for the past, I don't know, a couple of years or something. I went in Hong Kong, I went to one of these places where you buy you you buy the fish live and then then they take it and they cook it for you. And in fact, you can go next door to the boat and buy it from the boat and then they cook it at the restaurant. It's a really weird situation. You can never do that in the US.
+
+[41:29] So in the past couple of years, like very large mantis shrimp, like on the order of longer than a foot long, like big mantis shrimp, are all there live. And you know, they're like three inches across and like over a foot long, these mantis shrimp, and they're like kind of all flopping around. It's really very like, you know, prehistoric looking stuff. And the here the it was freaking awesome. Now now to gauge whether or not you're gonna like this, right?
+
+[41:55] Are you know you're familiar with a salt and pepper shrimp, they're cooked twice, right? So they're cooked, they're f they're fried up and then fried again so that they get the cr they're super crispy on the outside. And when the shells are thin enough, you just you can eat the shells. Right? You familiar with this, Jack?
+
+[42:10] Yeah. Yeah. And so like you always see people peeling it, and I'm like, you're losing all the flavor. Yeah, yeah. So these thin-shelled shrimp, you can double the mantis shrimp, even though they're huge like that, the ones that I had, the shells were thin enough that when they did the double the double cook-off like that on them, you could just eat the whole damn thing.
+
+[42:29] That was awesome. So it was like hacked up into pieces and served, and it was just freaking freaking really good. I had some other I don't know. Someday we'll talk about someday we'll have time to talk about the uh interesting food stuff. Anyway, have a question in here uh from Steve that I don't have an answer to, so I'm hoping that uh I'm hoping that the internets of uh of people at the Heritage Radio can hook us up on this.
+
+[42:53] Hello everyone. My name is Steve. I just discovered your podcast recently, and I love it. This is gonna grow stars out, so I'm gonna look at her face. I've been ready, ready.
+
+[43:00] And uh, what's your face? You have a neutral face? Yeah, do it. Because I read it like when like a week ago. And you were like, uh uh big fan of the cooking drama known as Hannibal on NBC.
+
+[43:13] So Hannibal actually was a cooking show? It was about cannibalism and cooking? I really don't know. Jack, you familiar with this show? Not at all.
+
+[43:19] Now can't be. Well, I guess cooking because he was a can he was a Hannibal, Hannibal the Cannibal. Sure. I'd guess. Listen to you, Jack.
+
+[43:26] I don't watch TV. All right. It's true. You don't like TV. No, not really.
+
+[43:30] Nothing. No. I don't I don't have cable or a TV. I have a projector and I'll watch like movies. Do you have Netflix?
+
+[43:38] No. I know. I'm sorry. How do you make um you know how uh how do you stay plugged into uh pop culture there? There just the internet, just the YouTube all the time?
+
+[43:49] That's the thing. I all the TV stuff kind of goes over my head. People talk about all the shows they keep up on. Um that's like the one thing I kind of unsubscribe from. So people don't uh don't uh try to engage Jack in conversations about the TV shows that you just watch.
+
+[44:03] Boring conversation ahead. Wow. Damn. Wow. I love this, Jack.
+
+[44:07] You know, I don't usually get the hater side of Jack. Rare. Rare. I mean, I get plenty of hate from me, plenty of hate from Stas. Very little hate from Jack.
+
+[44:17] I've like glad you brought it for Christmas. This is the season. Yeah. Stas, did you have you pulled out your uh Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer set? Oh my god.
+
+[44:27] So Nastasia has the entire Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer, like what is it, 30 or 50, 40th year anniversary set? Where you had to buy you had to buy Yukon Cornelius, Hermy, Rudolph, and Santa Claus, and then you send away and you get the bumble. Right. And Stas, I think, was the only person that ever sent them all and got the bumble. It took a really long time to get them.
+
+[44:48] No, we thought they were gonna screw you on the bumble. I know. That that is something Nastasia likes a lot. And by the way, I agree with her. All the rank and bass old, like, you know.
+
+[44:57] Oh my god. I wish Stas, you gotta tweet out the bumble is on the top of Nastasi's Christmas tree, like King Kong on the top of the Empire State Building. And you know, uh you are hater in general, but you do pull out the Christmas, which I enjoy. Um on the Hannibal page here for the on Wikipedia. And apparently Jose Andres was the series' culinary cannibal consultant.
+
+[45:18] Yeah, that's what that's well, right. Is that what he's getting to in the church? That's crazy. Yeah. Anyway, so the show was canceled because I guess there's only so much cannibalism people want to see uh on the TV.
+
+[45:28] I don't know. And one of the things that stuck out to me was an episode where Hannibal talks about centrifuging Sow's blood uh in order to create a clear liquid that tastes sweet. That would be the plasma. I asked some medical professionals about it, and they mentioned that they had heard anecdotally from third hand sources, third hand, like that. I never tasted it, that serum and plasma are indeed sweet tasting.
+
+[45:48] Sounds interesting. I wanted to try it for an awful themed dinner. I got a cheap centrifuge that's been some blood. A six tube uh primitive Clay Adams model 0181, which is like a standard uh uh thing. Uh that I think was used by companies to give employees physicals for commercials, driver's license tests or something like this.
+
+[46:06] Anyways, the capacity is horrible, but I got some pork blood from my local butcher to centrifuge, and after about half an hour I got zero zilch separation. This puzzled me, since this machine was presumably used to separate blood for physicals. I called the butcher shop I got the blood from Bel Campo Meats in Los Angeles. So you can hang out and get some uh thanks. Uh and they said they didn't add anything to the blood as an anticoagulant.
+
+[46:32] It's just pure pork blood. It can't really be true though, right? Otherwise it would coagulate. I think there's gotta be some I think uh it maybe if the doesn't the pH I forget. I it's been such a long.
+
+[46:42] There's plenty of literature about cooking with blood from plenty of sources, but nothing I can find out about centrifuging it for culinary use. Since Jose Andres was the culinary consultant on the Hannibal TV series, and he hasn't mentioned anything about centrifuging blood in any of his books, I have come to the conclusion that he has all this fun information about it and is jealously guarding it and keeping it from people like me. I don't think I can afford a centrifuge with significantly higher RPMs, so I'm wondering if there is a way to chemically clarify the solids out of blood similar to the way you clarify fruit juices and to produce a clear, possibly sweet serum or plasma. I always get them mixed up. Steve in Los Angeles.
+
+[47:18] So wow, I don't know. I've never centrifuged blood uh in any of my machines. Um, but this seems to me, Jack, am I right? Like this is something that I guarantee you we have people. I think so.
+
+[47:29] Like this is one of the things where you don't need me. There's been there's people out there, right? There's people out there. There's people out there. Don Vaux in from Berkeley, California.
+
+[47:44] You have never been to Berkeley. Isn't that weird? Do you like it over there? No. Nice.
+
+[47:52] Wow. What's so nice? All right. Uh and he says, uh, he says nice things about us, which I enjoy. He says, Well, I do have some questions, I don't know what to ask first yet.
+
+[48:02] Uh, anyways, we we might as well just ask anything, right? People ask anything. You don't have to wait till you have just anything. Ask a cooking question. Anyways, I do miss the original Fishes Fishes vodka.
+
+[48:13] Remember that, Jack? Yeah. Yeah. What I would like to know, and here's the question that's important. What I would like to know is where do I get the Jackie Molecules ringtone?
+
+[48:22] And is that still available from my phone? Ooh, we I might have taken care of this for him. Uh, but email us again, info at heritage radio network.org. Uh the response will be quicker if you're a donor of Heritage Radio Network. Yeah.
+
+[48:36] But uh shoot us an email, we'll sort it out. All right, and we'll and we'll see what Stas thinks about this. Also, this has probably been said before, but is Aubrey Plaza's character on Parks and Rec a character portrayal of Nastasia? You feel yourself like uh it seems uh like through the last two hundred and thirty episodes, I imagine Aubrey Plaza channeling Nastasia. Uh please don't hurt me, Stas.
+
+[49:00] I respect the hammer. She sounds like someone awesome to hang out with. Thanks. See, you saved yourself. Although I think Aubrey seems like cool.
+
+[49:08] Like I would want to hang out with her, right? Yeah. Anyway. Uh I tell all the cooks and bartenders I know about cooking issues. While I'm not in the industry myself, I seem to confuse people when I tell them I work in IT.
+
+[49:19] All the stuff on the show you guys talk about makes them think that I work in a kitchen, which is highly amusing as I feel like a total fake. Uh nice. Well, well, here's the making you feel like a a total fake. Yeah. Uh we do.
+
+[49:32] That's that's how we do. We I should wrap it up. Oh, all right. Stas is telling me we gotta pull off it. So we should say anything specific in Christmas?
+
+[49:40] We didn't do anything any any Christmasy things, any advice we need to give for Christmas cooking. I don't know. We didn't get any Christmas questions. Well, it's because they didn't know it was gonna be the last episode before the last yeah they would. Or war on Christmas.
+
+[49:57] Stas, are are you are you no Stas is a pro Christmas warrior? Jack, are you neutral? I'm a solstice guy. What? That's today.
+
+[50:07] Happy well no, that was yesterday. No, no, no. Twenty first. Twenty first. Yeah.
+
+[50:10] Anyway. Longest shortest day of the year, rather. A c a couple of things. Let me get a couple of things out of the way since I'm not having people call in, right? One, uh, I went to China.
+
+[50:18] I went to Hong Kong and Shenzhen. More on that later if you guys are interested. Um, but I went specifically, I met the guy who makes the Sears all. How cool is that? Also, Searsols are going to be back online in early January.
+
+[50:32] What do you mean? They're out? They sold out? Freaking animals. No, no, no, no, no.
+
+[50:36] The new load, they are taking their sweet time on putting them into the factories. Did you just say the new load? The new load. But is are there none available right now? Zero.
+
+[50:45] We sold out of ours. And the new load is being held on to. Where is it? It's they can't tell me. You know how they are.
+
+[50:56] We have none left. Zero. I think that's a good one. But someone online is selling one on Amazon for $7,300. Wow.
+
+[51:03] That's a joke. Let me tell you something, people. I told Amazon that they were gonna run out. We told them this was not on us. When did this happen?
+
+[51:12] Yesterday. I got a bunch of emails yesterday and then all morning I've been on the phone with them. Oh, Jesus. And it they're in the country, they just don't know guys. Freaking guys.
+
+[51:24] Freaking guys. And we're almost out of steak decorators. They're coming from. Hey, listen, if you guys listen, the steak decorator, we didn't do a lot of talking about it. It actually is a really nice piece of equipment, but Nastasi and I have to really feel that people want it in order for us to order another batch because they were really just for the Kickstarter people.
+
+[51:42] But you know, I use mine every day. It's like imagine if like, imagine if like lazy Sue if if like Susan stopped being lazy, took a bunch of anabolic steroids, and like, you know, she became like super robo. We can't call it RoboSusan because there's no motor in it. And we feel that like a robo Susan would have to be motorized, right? By the way, every restaurant I went to in China had a giant lazy Susan.
+
+[52:06] That's awesome. Yeah. Um, so I went to China to deal with uh possibly a new next year sometime Sears All thing. And also to deal with the centrifuge. And I got good news and I got bad news.
+
+[52:20] The bad news is it's taking us a little bit longer to do the centrifuge than I had hoped. I'm gonna go through another round of prototyping. Uh we will start talking about the centrifuge and releasing pictures uh early in the new year and hopefully in mid-January, and uh telling you about all of its capabilities and what it can do. Um but as usual, we don't want to put something out until we're happy with it, and so it's gonna take a month or two longer than we had hoped, right, Stas? Mm-hmm.
+
+[52:53] But it's gonna be when it happens. But remember, a lot of this is about uh, you know, well, we'll talk more in depth when I when when I when I announce it sometime in mid-January. Uh the other thing is is that when you're cooking for Christmas, or whatever, Hanukkah next year, quantum whatever, new year's, whatever. The primary thing, uh, and this is how I s like how I do try to do almost everything, is run a small test first. That's the thing, right?
+
+[53:24] It's like you're gonna have 15 or 20 people over, you're gonna spend money like a couple hundred dollars on meat, or you're gonna do some big thing of veg. Take the time to just do a couple of small scale tests first. Most of the time it's not that big of a deal. Like if it's a poultry problem, just get like one breast or one leg and test it out. And this is the same thing if you're gonna be on a TV show, test this stuff out before you're gonna before you're gonna do it, before you try to do it with the whole thing.
+
+[53:49] Because I know it seems like you don't have the time to do it, but that's really the way to figure out what's gonna happen. If you run just one or two simple tests the second time around, it's gonna be so much better. That's how I figure out everything anyway, and that's how hopefully you don't ruin the holidays. So happy holidays from cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[54:14] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[54:38] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Wisconsin Cheese Cupid Pairing app. Available on Android and Apple devices. I'm Linda Palacio, host of A Taste of the Pass. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the new year, slightly late as usual on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Hey, how are you doing? Got as usual in the studio with me today, Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez, direct back from her trip to Italy. How is it?
+
+[0:51] It was okay. Uh bad company, right? Yeah. Uh don't worry. Your friends don't listen.
+
+[0:58] Your friends don't listen. Your friends don't listen. Uh we got Peter Kim, the uh director of the Museum of Food and Drink, talking about uh what's going on with the program there, what we have planned in the new year, and and of course, in the booth, Jackie Molecule. Jack Insley, how you doing, Jack? I'm great.
+
+[1:18] Happy New Year. Yeah, same to you, ma'am. Yeah, so what do we got? What do we got going on? Anything anything good to announce for the from the Heritage Radio Network in this new year?
+
+[1:25] Absolutely. This is gonna be slightly long, but worth it. Alright. Um, the cooking issues listeners came through so much for our fundraising drive that I have to shout all of them out. All right, shout away.
+
+[1:40] Are you ready for this? What's that? That's uh that's uh The chalk jams? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, huh, let's see.
+
+[1:46] I'll I'll put it over some music here. We'll put the theme song on or something. Thomas Metcalf, Alex McLeod, Aaron Perez, Brian Garthwaite, Josh Whitlam, Jason Molinari, Drew Lang, Gregor Harris, Don Vaux, Marcos Mokeen McQueen, William Sabados, Chris Walker, Fred Schneider, sorry, Steve Terrell, Kenneth Yee, Andrew Fessler, Andrew Schultz, Jen Tom, Renee Casper, Jonas Diergnis, Justin Carlyle from Ardent, Devin Maloney, Steve McLarnan, Rich McDonough, hey, Nastasio Lopez, Lee Crawford, Nicholas Devlin, Nicholas Siebert, Edward Dinell, John Derragon, Catherine Alford, Chris Kaiser, Robert McCammant, Peter Spandy, Kim Dykman, Co. Miles, Kevin Scott, Mark Bledsoe, Jeff Mays, Yuri Mayman, Ellen Elliott Papanow, Ruben Cable, Gene Nahal, Andy Melka, Ray Les Locasero, sorry, Jeffrey Given, Nicholas Elliott, David Tassanari, Joel Esposito, Timothy Helmuth, and of course John Riper. There we go.
+
+[2:57] Wow. Nice. Thanks, everybody. You really like the the cooking issues team really made our fundraising drive like possible. Nice.
+
+[3:07] Nastasia put a note on my uh on my list of questions today saying I should handle the old questions first, but I don't have my old questions, so I won't be handling them first. Someone can come up with them and then read them to me. But in the meantime, for some reason I'm told that we're actually doing a live product demonstration on the on the air today of a product that I have never used before or seen before. Well, why don't you stash? Why don't you tell us what this is?
+
+[3:28] Some people from Drinkmate sent us a drinkmate. Mostly for sodas, uh beer, wine, smoothies, and coffee. So it looks a whole hell of a lot like a soda stream. Yep. It has the same form factor as a soda stream.
+
+[3:44] It looks like it uses a similar cartridge. I haven't you haven't shown me the cartoon. The cartridge, yeah, is the same. The exact one with the exact fittings that soda stream uses. Yes, so you can use a soda stream cartridge in it?
+
+[3:59] Yes. Okay. Flip it around there, Peter, so I can take a look at it. All right. It uses what looks to be an identical bottle to the soda stream, at least identical in style.
+
+[4:09] Now, the the thing I'm a crap about this guy as opposed to the other ones, is these people are saying that you can go ahead and carbonate an alcoholic beverage in it from uh from the get go. Uh now, just with what that means for those of you who have ever tried carbonating a uh a non water beverage in a soda stream, is that they must have recalibrated the overflow, the uh overpressure valve in it. Uh that's the main reason why you can't carbonate um alcoholic or anything really other than water in a soda stream, because there's the extremely distinct possibility that if you're not extraordinarily careful, you will clog the uh overpressure valve and lead to such amusing things as the bottle flying off in all directions and shattering a bunch of glassware in your house. In fact, I had someone, even though I explicitly said what the problem was, he was like, uh maybe even a cooking issues listen. I don't know.
+
+[5:03] It's like, he's like, thanks, Dave, for ruining all the glassware in my house. I'm like, hey, man. You know, this is at your own risk kind of a situation. When you go off the instruction manuals and take heart uh Searsol owners out there, if you deviate, the instructions are there to provide the safest experience possible. Anytime you deviate from the instructions, whether they're our instructions or the soda stream people's instructions, you're kind of taking your life into your own hands.
+
+[5:29] You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yes. You agree? Mm-hmm. So the bartender here, when I told him what was going down, he was like, Oh man, it's funny you say that.
+
+[5:35] I put milk in my soda stream. It was a mess. Oh, don't ever milk. Milk's the worst. Yeah.
+
+[5:40] Of all the things you can try to cover. Put milk in there, like you want. Yeah, what was the urge? Well, aside from the fact that like if it depends on the on the milk and how it's pre-stabilized, but you can have issues, you know, with but uh it's it's uh uh uh it's a huge urge people have to carbonate milk. Why?
+
+[5:56] Yeah. It it just is. I guess you could make a better egg cream. Egg creams no. I don't know.
+
+[6:02] There's no such first of all, I'm gonna get some angry calls about this. I've tried to love the freaking egg cream, contains neither egg nor cream. I've tried to love it many times, many, many times I've tried to love it. I have made it, I have purchased the official you bet foxes uh syrup, which is the official egg cream syrup, which is like at one point maybe looked at a cocoa pod at some point, but that's about as close as it gets to being real chocolate. And uh I just don't like them.
+
+[6:26] I just don't like them. I do not like them. Okay. Do you like them? No, I don't.
+
+[6:32] Do you like egg creams? No, I'm not crazy about it. Jack egg creams? Yeah, someone call me. Someone call in two 7184972128.
+
+[6:40] Is that right? Yeah. 7184972128, and then uh tell me why egg creams are worth even worrying about. Piper used to try to work on it all the time, and even he, he was dedicated to it. I think it's all he did when he went home was work on egg creams and eggnog, anything with the word egg in it.
+
+[6:56] And uh no no good. No good. All right. So um I'm just guessing based on looking at this, you've overfilled the bottle. No, the max fill line is Max fill line for alcohol or max fill line for water.
+
+[7:07] Did you actually read the freaking instructions? No faith in stocks. First of all, like Peter and Nastasia have read the instructions. So, like by Nastasia's own reckoning, that's like one person of like, you know, of normal care reading the instructions. Alright, so let's go.
+
+[7:23] I'm gonna put a micro put a microphone. I guess. I don't know. I don't know how this you're saying. Peter, come on, just do it.
+
+[7:35] Who's to define short? Short's not a number. You made that up. You just lied. It said 0.25 seconds.
+
+[7:44] A quarter of a second? It says maybe as short as 0.25 seconds. So this is an interesting technique that I've never tried with the soda screen before, to be honest, of this short burst technique. The idea, I guess, being that you can't build up a big head of foam with these short bursts. Keep going.
+
+[8:00] It hasn't gone through its overpressure yet. Does it say to go till it farts? That sound is so funny. Yeah, till it farts. Tell it farts.
+
+[8:08] It's just like a soda screen. This is an interesting technique, people. I might have to revise I'm not gonna revise liquid intelligence. But this might be a revision. Oh wait for it, wait for it.
+
+[8:19] Wait for it. Look here. Wait. You have to take it. I know, I know, I know.
+
+[8:24] Wait for it to settle. Don't take it off yet. You're taking it off. Do not take it off yet. Patience.
+
+[8:31] Patience is not a virtue, but in this case, this is not patience. This is just waiting for God to not be angry. Now wait. God's still angry, Peter. Okay, I think we're good.
+
+[8:40] No, you're not. You are not. You are not good. You are not good. I will tell you when you are good.
+
+[8:48] Yeah, yeah, I see it. I see it. You're not good. This is what people, when you're doing this, it's like it's like when I tell you how many years have I been carbonating, Peter? Why would you doubt me when I say it's not good yet?
+
+[8:58] You know what I'm saying? It's like wait for the bubbles. You see all those little bubbles that are still in it? As soon as you release it, those will expand, create foam, it will overflow the thing. I'm just taking this off the top.
+
+[9:07] You know what that will do? That will release the pressure. And not release the pressure. That will release it. They have a separate button.
+
+[9:13] Alright. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see. Oh, geez. Oh geez.
+
+[9:17] Oh geez. Alright, so you see? Now. Alright, you supposed to shake the bottle before releasing the pressure. Whoa, whoa, whoa, why?
+
+[9:25] It says it's what we're supposed to do. Go, go. Alright. Gently shaking. Okay.
+
+[9:32] And then place the carbonation and fizz and fuel on level service, open the slow release. Not yet. Not yet. Dave, you've had your kids, man. Listen, stop!
+
+[9:42] It's gonna ruin the beverage. Stop! Alright, we're gonna talk about something else until this thing because first of all, that was the weakest shake I've ever seen in my life. Give this thing. It said gently shake.
+
+[9:54] Crap on them. This is carbonation Jedi training. Now listen, alright. I'm gonna keep it away from Peter until it freaking settles out and looks clear. What?
+
+[10:04] We don't they don't know what we're carbon. Oh. We are carbonate. What are we carbonating, right? Not milk.
+
+[10:10] A uh mule forced. Mule forced Riesling, 2009. How much did this bottle cost? From Alsace. It's on Heritage Radio.
+
+[10:19] It's on Heritage Radio? Oh nice. Alright. 13.5% uh alcohol by volume, which is a good uh alcohol level for carbonation. Um doesn't this mean means in the place of said, in place of being saying?
+
+[10:33] What does this mean, French speaking? I don't. That's I don't know. Place speak, right? Said, yeah, but I don't know.
+
+[10:38] Place said, mule forced. It's so weird. It's such a random combination of German and French. That's what Alzhas is, I guess. Uh Stas, isn't it great?
+
+[10:47] Just, you know, ten minutes of uh verbal hatred from Dave. Listen to the take the edge off. This is a great. I don't see how we're gonna have relaxing beverages unless we're taking poles directly off of the freaking bottle because there's no cups in here, geniuses. Yeah, that I'll take that one.
+
+[11:04] That's my bad. So now, Peter's a great drinking buddy. Now, Peter, you may gently open it. Well, you know, he has to release. But yeah, that's what I mean.
+
+[11:12] Gently re Gently! So, all right, put it on. Stop! See, look look at the thing. Don't look at the instructions, look at the beverage.
+
+[11:19] I know. All right. Now, there are bubbles that are slowly rising to the top. Watch a phone open the bottom. Wait, wait, wait.
+
+[11:28] Wait. Now you may fully release it. No, it says I suppose to close the the slow release. Why? And then wait for the bubbles of to settle before opening.
+
+[11:39] I don't know. What's with the bleep thing? You don't have to touch the blue thing? I don't know, dude. Okay, so I can press the button for the fast release.
+
+[11:45] No, no, no. Okay. Once. In in point twenty-five second bursts, Peter. Alright.
+
+[11:50] Alright, there, you're good. Okay, fully depressurized. You're good. Yes. Alright, now.
+
+[11:55] Here. You got LN to Chili's glasses? What are amateurs? These are the worst people in the whole world. I may say something else, uh, Jack, Stas, and Peter.
+
+[12:05] Is that nine times out of ten, this one's Jack's. Nine times out of ten, um, still wines, although they taste good, c oh, where have you learned to pour? Like people, when you're pouring a not cold enough drink, which this wine was not cold enough, into a not cold glass. It doesn't say it needs to be cold on the instructions, which is strange. Oh, I'm sorry that they don't really understand the principles involved.
+
+[12:29] I'm just letting everybody know. Listen, it's a well-known uh fact. It's a fact of uh physics slash chemistry, depending on how you look at it, that the carbonation level is directly it's gonna be weak carbonation because it's under chilled, and because Peter touched it. Cheers, people. Let's see whether Cheers.
+
+[12:53] Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, guys. I hate myself. It's nice, actually.
+
+[13:00] I have to roll that. It is nice. It is nice. It's undercarbonated. I'm surprised.
+
+[13:05] It's undercarbonated for what I want. It's undercarbonated for what I would do if I was carbonating. But it's carbonated well for a wine. And in fact, most wines you don't want over carbonated. So, like one of the uh ripes that you have with uh carbonated.
+
+[13:18] This was my general touch, Dave. I was you you were assuming I was making mistakes every step of the way, but I was microcalibrating the carbonation. You know what the other thing is, is that uh this wine has a bit of a sherried note on the end, a bit of oxidation, which uh I like in carbonated beverages, but a lot of people don't because the oxidized nature of it kind of comes up. But I think that's just due to the age of the wine uh in this in this case. Well, happy new year.
+
+[13:42] Cheers. Good job, Peter. Is that what we need out of life? Is that what we need out of life, people? Good job, all the free people.
+
+[13:49] Give it a shout out. What? Just what we use. I just want you to be proud of me, Dave. Oh, that's uh you know what?
+
+[13:54] You know what? I'm gonna go give the bartender a taste of this because he wanted to. Brought to you by Drinkmate, Carbonated Drinkmaker. A machina des babidas carbon carbonizadas. Right?
+
+[14:06] Yeah. It's not obviously they're not selling in Canada. Where's the French? Where's the French at? Yeah.
+
+[14:11] Where be the bigger thing? I want to see what a smoothie tastes like, carbonated. Disgusting. I'm telling you that right from the get go. Who, like carbonating a smoothie, you know what that makes it taste like?
+
+[14:21] Like it fermented, like it went bad. Like rot, like stink. I don't like carbonated smoothie. Blah. Well, get back to me.
+
+[14:30] Maybe you people love carbonated smoothies. I don't know. Listen, I have my taste. You have yours. What's that from, Stas?
+
+[14:37] You you carbonate your drink, I'll carbonate my brrrrr. That's like uh what's his name? UConn Cornelius is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm better at Hermie than I am at at uh and I'm better at uh at uh a uh what's his name? Uh what was his name in the box?
+
+[14:53] Oh, uh Charlie. Yeah. It says on the box four steps of sparkling, but forgets the sort of three steps in between those four steps of yelling at each other. Human degradation. Hey, listen.
+
+[15:05] Listen, people are drink mate to the fill line. Listen, people now listen, people. Tell everybody else how worthless they are. People, people, people, people. Here's here's the New Year's resolution.
+
+[15:18] Stop being an enemy of quality. And just do it right. Just freaking He did it right. He did it right. And that required me yelling at it.
+
+[15:26] That required me yelling at him. It's like, it's like, listen, when I'm yelling, it's not personal. It has nothing to do with it, it has to do with the product. I just want the product to be good. Everybody at Roberta's really loves this.
+
+[15:37] They're very, very, very impressed. Oh, good, good. But you know what my point is? Is that all I worry about is the quality of the product. Yeah.
+
+[15:43] That's it. Well, we know this. Yeah. You've ruined me, too. You should hear the things I say to my girlfriend now.
+
+[15:50] Wow. Like what? Well, I mean, when things aren't done right, I just kind of lose it, you know. I think but I think that's good. I called her an enemy of quality once.
+
+[15:57] She never forgave me. That's a good thing. It's like, because no one wants to be that. I mean, that's the thing. Like, no matter what you do in life, you can either try to be better at it or not.
+
+[16:07] Right? Like, why be lazy? You have to live. Like, that's the thing. You have to go through life.
+
+[16:13] Why would you want to do it in a haphazard and crappy manner? I don't know, Dave. Sometimes I don't want to live sometimes. Oh, that's that's by the way, Peter's Patrick Martin's invitation. Taken, no, no, but taken from uh a div uh round table, a Mofad round table we did, where uh Peter Singer, the uh the philosopher kind of, you know, who started the animal liberation movement, uh, was on the panel and basically calling Patrick out, you know, that these you know, these animals.
+
+[16:43] Oh no, so someone in the audience actually, these animals want to live, and he's like, sometimes I don't want you to do it. You do it. I can't do it. You're the Patrick imitator. Well, sometimes I don't want to live, you know.
+
+[16:54] And then I'll say I'll say something. I'll be Peter Singer, which I'm not gonna do in Australian, because he has an Australian accent. Uh but he goes, uh, he says, uh, what did he say? He said, well, all of your animals, even if they're treated really well, like, you know, they're all castrated, all the males are castrated, like, you know, what you know, what do you think about that? Do you remember what his response was?
+
+[17:15] I was circumcised. Oh, pretty brilliant, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done, Patrick. Uh cheers to Patrick.
+
+[17:24] Yeah, cheers to Patrick. Our our benevolent founder of uh of the Heritage Radio Network. Okay, by the way, before I get into it, yeah, what by the time we get into it, it'll be over. But the today is just one of those freaking days in New York City. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[17:39] Well, no, it's like it got cold so fast that the crazies haven't made it home yet, so the crazies are still out, but it's like freezing. Like I had that guy on the subway today who is playing music out loud on his phone. Yeah. Oh, worst. Worst.
+
+[17:54] Worse. Worse. Makes me wish I was a giant hulking brute because then I could just pick up my phone and play the like whatever the polar opposite of what he is playing. And it's always a dude. It's always a large dude who's never like, I don't know, comes from a place where no one's ever been like, you know, dude, that's like not cool.
+
+[18:12] You know what I mean? Like he's always been big, and so no one's ever like, you know, dude, you're you're kind of a you're kind of an a-hole here. You know what I mean? And so, like, but like if I was a giant human, I would just play with the opposite and then be like, oh, wait, I thought it was just random annoy your you know neighbor with crap music day. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:31] But no, I'm not a giant. I can't even say when headphones are too loud. Never mind playing music. And then, and then, yeah, I know, right? But put headphones on.
+
+[18:39] I mean, no one in the subway is trying to kill him. He doesn't need to keep his wits about him. I understand people on bicycles who play music out loud. Like, I don't particularly like it, but I understand my brother does it. I understand it because they're like trying to say, I am near you.
+
+[18:53] Like you hear moving music, biker near you. I get it. You know what I mean? But like in a subway, what the hell? Well, you know, why do you need what you know?
+
+[19:02] And then when I get off the subway, I'm walking over here, you know, through the through the through the apartments, right? Through Bushwick House, and I'm walking over through here, and the dude on the electric bicycle, smoking a cigarette, doing delivery delivery, creeps past me on a sidewalk doing like 15 mile an hour on a silent freaking electric bike. Hate that. Hate that. Oof.
+
+[19:22] Hate that. New York. Just, you know, New York. Happy New Year. And everyone who went out and walked their freaking dog this morning, I'm a dog owner, by the way.
+
+[19:31] Everyone who went out and walked their dog this morning and forgot to bring their gloves with them, didn't take the time to pick up the poop because their hands are too cold. I don't care about your fingers. Pick up the poo. You know what I'm saying? Anyways.
+
+[19:43] Alright. Hi, Peter. Oh, hello, Dave. This Riesling is uh quite lovely, isn't it? It was good.
+
+[19:50] It is good. You know, wait, these guys come up with a portable one too that you can take. So when you go to Phil's house and you're like, who brought this crappy Chardonnay? Well, it's not portable. The lid could stay on.
+
+[20:01] Well, no, it's a separate it comes with a little CO2. What's the retail on this thing? What is the MSRP nostalgia? I have no idea. No blue.
+
+[20:10] What is it again? I'll look it up. By the way, uh, okay, so I haven't seen you guys in a while, so I'll run through some of the stuff that's happened uh cooking-wise over the uh over the break here. I made possibly the best prime rib of my life over the Christmas time, and it unf I I hate to say it, but it's not wasn't like a reproducible thing. I started doing I put uh how did I do it?
+
+[20:32] I wrapped my mom had like some old giant Ziploc that uh did I even use that? How did I bag it? Huh. Because I did it low temp. I don't even remember.
+
+[20:42] I think I bagged it like in like a trash bag. I don't know. I bagged it in something vile and disgusting. But I thought originally, oh no, I know what I did. My mom had I told her to have the butcher cut the bones off, right?
+
+[20:54] So I we cut the bones off, and every year I try to cook the bones and stuff. Like, you know what? You don't need to low temp the bones. You want the bones cooked high, and you want that high overcooked meat with the fat and the gristle and crap around the bones, right? So, like all of a sudden, and there's not a big piece of meat, so it's okay to pre-salt that for a long time uh ahead of time.
+
+[21:14] So all of a sudden now I'm already on a winning path, a path to winning, right? Uh so I salted down the the uh bones, put them in the fridge, took out the roast, and then wrapped it in plastic wrap a billion times like we used to do with uh with chickens. Remember? Mm-hmm. Remember the old plastic wrap roll?
+
+[21:32] So I plastic wrap rolled it, which means it was super easy to get circulated. But here's the problem. I didn't have enough time to I didn't have enough time because I started too late, right? So I was starting it at 55, I was gonna do it all the way through, do a cool down, but then like, and you know, when I only had a couple of hours left, I was like, ah, so I jacked it to 58, figured it doesn't matter if the outside's overcooked a little bit, and then when I rest it to cool it down, I'll get an initial bump into the inside, which was true. So after a little bit of that, I pulled it out, and the initial was at uh 50, like fi four, no, like four in the high 40s, right?
+
+[22:09] Uh Celsius on the inside. So this is where my tandoor training, and by the way, after the new year's I did tandoor chicken, I am becoming much every time I use the tandoor, I get better and better and better at at the tandoor. And the tandoor is all about in and out and in and out. If you're a Who fan. You're not a Who fan?
+
+[22:28] You know like the Who? No, it's in my head. Now it's yeah, sorry about that. Well, you know, isn't that the squeeze box song? Anyways, so like what I did is I was like, Ma, Ma, have you already done cooking the potatoes or what?
+
+[22:39] Can I give the oven? So she like pulls the potatoes out. I crank the oven to 500, and then it's in and out, right? So I'm like in for 20, out for out for 20, let it let it the outside cool down, in for 20 until I figured that the the last rest would bring me inside. It's just up to 55, and then the outside would have that overcooked thing that we all like.
+
+[23:01] Oh, and underneath it, I just let the the rack roast until it was right, right? Threw it in for a couple minutes at the end, and then serve the whole thing. Uh in fact, I cooked, I fact I put the roast on the rack for the in and out. I wrote pre-roasted the rack and then put the roast back on the rack for the in and out procedure so that you wouldn't get an overcooked section next to the bone where you don't want it overcooked. Right?
+
+[23:23] Right, right? Uh great. So why would why is this not replicable? Uh, because I didn't write down the numbers or anything like that. And the end effect was what?
+
+[23:31] Delicious! Delicious! Delicious! Fiddler on the roof. Yeah, fiddler on the delicious.
+
+[23:39] Yeah, anyway. There's still time to try out, Dave. Yeah, yeah. And then uh I have a caller whenever you're ready. Oh, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[23:46] Hi, Dave. How's it going? All right, how are you doing? Happy New Year. Good, happy new year.
+
+[23:49] Um, I'm going to try and follow in your footsteps. I'm planning on going to Mexico City in two weeks. And I think I'm gonna try and bring back a Nyx Tomatic. Awesome. And so I think, did you say you carried yours on?
+
+[24:03] Like, what do you do I what should I expect? Like, I'm just kind of nervous about like buying this big thing and then like not being able to take it on the plane with me, kind of thing. Like do you pack light? Um I could. Yeah.
+
+[24:17] I would pack light and then just bring it back as you're checked. Okay. Yeah, just leave it in the box, like overwrap the box and have it as you're checked. Now, let me tell you a little thing, a couple things about the Nyx Domatic. Uh, did I talk about this when I was making Christmas cookies?
+
+[24:31] Uh-huh. That I like, it would poof, it came back to life. I told you it came back to life. Don't grind almonds in it after you add sugar. If you add sugar to almonds, if you grind just almonds or any nut, it works like a champ, right?
+
+[24:46] If you if you add sugar to it while it's grinding, the oil will get expressed and it will turn to a glue on the inside. Clamp your plates together, and then that's when you're gonna get to poof on the motor. So don't do that. Another this lady just pulled a bottle of wine. Oh, she's dripping water on her pizza.
+
+[25:03] She's dripping water on her phone on our pizza hot. That sounds so disgusting to me. Like water on pizza. Oh, Jesus. She's just oh my God.
+
+[25:10] I can't look. I'm looking away. I'm turning the microphone and talking to you, and I'm looking away from the woman. Um, so uh where was I? Where was I?
+
+[25:18] Nickstomatic. The other thing you have to know is that the casting quality on the burrs isn't she's done with the wine, I can look back. Uh isn't necessarily uh the best. And so what happens is is the first four or five batches you make with the nix d'ematic of masa are gonna be fairly coarse. And you need to literally grind the the masa burrs into uh into like a coplanar kind of uh a situation.
+
+[25:45] And so the very first one you do, like, you know, obviously grind some dry rice to get most of the metal grid out, but I just don't worry about a little bit of extra steel getting into my masa for the first couple of runs around, and my plates have gotten like a lot, lot uh better over over time. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Okay. So like your tenth batch batch of masa is gonna be better than your first or your second or third.
+
+[26:08] I don't know where it levels out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It keeps getting better, in other words. But it starts out like not so great, but don't worry about that. Okay.
+
+[26:16] Just buy a lot of rice. Yeah, or like I said, like after I went through a couple things of rice, uh, I just started, I was like, to hell with it. And dude, you you know, you're double grinding the masa, right? So you're doing a double double grind on it. Uh and uh, but yeah, it just keeps getting better.
+
+[26:33] Okay. That's good. You know, just I think for some reason I was under the impression that there was um they might give you a hard time about checking checking it. So I'm no, I mean it doesn't have any lithium batteries in it. When I was in China, uh, you know, they were like, you know, that's like literally the week I was in China.
+
+[26:48] I don't know if I already said this, but literally the week I was in China, they stopped allowing you to bring hoverboards on the plane, even in check baggage because they kept blowing up, but there's no lithium batteries in this, so it's all good. Cool. No one understands corn grinder anyway. God, corn grinder. That's like I brought a, you know, when I went to Japan, it brought back the toilet.
+
+[27:04] They're like, You're bringing a toilet back? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I am. And what yeah, yeah, right. Well, thanks so much. All right, hey, listen.
+
+[27:12] Uh, let us know how it works once you get it. Have a good time in Mexico. I'm sure you hey, go to uh the the uh the Merced, I think is the name of the market, right? Go there, and uh there's a lady squash blossom quesadillas. Get it, buy it, eat it.
+
+[27:27] I've already listened. All right, good. All right, thanks a lot. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.
+
+[27:31] All right, uh oh, so uh the last thing I will say is because it is the season uh to be jolly uh for New Year's, I busted out our old mochi maker that we had like years ago, and I made the fresh mochi, which is delicious, and I'm here. I know this trend is like 10 years old almost next year, this year, 2016. Uh I think 10. Moffaled. You ever had a moffal, Peter?
+
+[27:56] Nope. Jack, Maffle? Nope. Stas Moffel? No.
+
+[28:00] So I was like, I don't Stas is like, why are you talking about food? This is a cooking show. That's not possible. I've only seen you once. I know, and in that time.
+
+[28:09] One to me, one to Nick Wong. No, we were together talking about it. Third time. Yeah, well, I'm sorry that you know, not everyone in the freaking world like can sit around and talk with us all the time. How many times do I have to hear you talking about Daniel Krieger and bananagrams and how you have disparate ways of playing with each other?
+
+[28:25] Once. Not once. I've heard it three freaking times already. And that's something stupid. Freaking how to play bananograms.
+
+[28:32] People, two letter scrabble words are legit. I'm sorry that you don't like key spell QI. I apologize for your lack of liking. Yes, yeah. By the way, it is not the same.
+
+[28:44] I'm looking at it now. It's not the same as a soda screen bottle. It's not the same as a soda screen bottle. It's got little weird pegs on it. So they're not mutually compatible.
+
+[28:51] I'm enjoying observing the acrimony, much like the emperor between Luke and his. Give me some electric hands, Peter. Infinite pow. Uh so the uh no, unlimited power. That's what he says, right?
+
+[29:04] When he kills Mace Windu. Uh and I'm supposed to spoil the new Star Wars for Peter, not a good one. Don't do that. Not on air. I would never do that.
+
+[29:14] God. One of my friends spoiled it on Twitter. What the hell? I know. Why are they still your friend?
+
+[29:18] They're not. It's over. Alright, done. Anyway, so back to mochi. So uh turns out fresh mochi is freaking delicious, and I don't advocate that you go out and spend 219 bucks on a mochi maker.
+
+[29:31] But if you happen to have one lying around, uh the tiger mochi maker, it is sick. And I did fresh mochi, which was really good. Like, we did it, I did it Italian style because I didn't have any sesame oil or anything with me, but like little they're like little gnocchi, but even more chewy, delicious. But then you just take a and you pat it out thin, and it works the next day, styles, which I couldn't have told you because I did it this morning. That's true.
+
+[29:52] Uh and last night. You can take the hard, like Day Old Mochi, and I think even commercial mochi, and you just put it, you sp put spray grease in a waffle iron, and you it just expands to fill out the waffle iron and turns out like crisp creaspey outside and like gooey inside mochi in the waffle iron, and that's hence mochi waffle maffle, and they are like dude. That's the next ramen burger, man. It's gotta be like I don't like pick up on this people. Like start making this crap in restaurants here in the US because it is a win.
+
+[30:26] The only issue is is that uh the texture like all freshly done mochi, the texture tends to change um pretty drastically and pretty quickly. So it's best as a quickly eaten item. And I saw some people online doing it, and their stuff just looked like low, weak, weak. You gotta make sure that the waffle goes on long enough, get it thin enough, and here's the other trick. You have to lift the waffle plate out a bunch of up like two or three times during the cook to get the maximum lateral expansion of the mochi.
+
+[30:54] But anyway, so uh I'm I'm planning on playing more with uh mochi uh as time wears on. The reason I got it out, not because of New Year's, because anyone who's listening to the last episode knows that this year is going to be the year of starch research for me. Well, plus I supposed to write a book and get a centrifuge done. You're here to hear her to hear first, folks. Yeah.
+
+[31:17] Well, let's just take a really quick break, yeah? Alright, coming right back with cooking issues. So today's program is brought to you by the Cheese Cupid app, which is a really fun and awesome app which will pair cheese with a beverage. So don't be shy. Choose a category.
+
+[31:38] What beverage complements your cheese? What cheese compliments your beverage? Wisconsin Cheese Cupit has the answer. Simply choose the beverage or cheese in need of a soulmate, and Wisconsin Cheese Cupid will do the rest. Feeling adventurous, pairing roulette will create a random yet perfectly delicious pairing for you.
+
+[31:55] So visit CheeseCupid.com. Get the app, check it out, pair your cheese and your wine. We'll be right back. You didn't see uh Despicable Me? Wow.
+
+[32:10] I learned Peter Kim has not seen Despicable Me. I haven't seen a despicable person. What's wrong with you people? Yeah. So that's that's you know, that's just a whole list of cultural references I can't use on you guys.
+
+[32:20] That's true. Weak. Oh, uh wait, we had one last thing. What were we talking about? Mochi, carbonation, tandor, tandoor.
+
+[32:29] I don't know. It'll come to me or your uh roast. No, yeah, no, not that. No, that's over. I'm done talking about that.
+
+[32:35] I'll never talk about it again. Uh I'll just get to some questions and eventually it'll come to me. Happy New Year! I have a cooking issue which I would love to discuss on your podcast, and that is the issue of cooking for a one. We just actually do we had this conversation last night, Stuff.
+
+[32:49] Oh, yeah. All three of us did. You think it's not sad? I'm the one who doesn't like it. Cooking for one is sad.
+
+[32:54] Going out to eat by yourself is not sad. What? Cooking for one. I don't mind either way, really. I don't like I don't like eating.
+
+[33:01] My life lives in Ethiopia, what can I say? Uh I don't like eating Ethiopia. She works for the UN. What? What?
+
+[33:07] Said he has yet to meet her. EthiopianWives.com, man. Yeah, man, yeah. The papers will come through any day now, Peter. Any day.
+
+[33:16] Um so it the the point being, I don't like to eat. I don't mind like when I cook for myself, and it's uh this person's she's gonna get mad. But like when I cook for myself, literally, it's always the same thing. It's poached eggs. And because I'm only doing three, it's traditional.
+
+[33:28] It's funny that you choose poached eggs. Why not just like a sunny side up egg? I find that to be even easier. I like poached eggs, and my wife doesn't like them. So like it's not that she doesn't like them, but you should treat himself.
+
+[33:43] Yeah, I'm treating myself to something that I can't cook in general for the family. That I see the waitress when she pours this freaking beverage for the person, wiped off the bottle so that it wouldn't drip all over every freaking thing. Low quality. Enemies, enemies of quality. Okay.
+
+[34:00] Uh yeah, I don't like uh eating by myself primarily because I eat so fast that there's always a lot of sitting and staring at the ceiling and all this other stuff while I'm waiting for the next plate of food to come out, and I freaking hate being by myself waiting for a check. I freaking hate waiting for checks. Even when I'm with the cover app. Yeah. I don't know, man.
+
+[34:20] Anyway. Anyway. Onto the question. On the question. It's not really a question.
+
+[34:24] This is more of a statement. Uh, even though single occupant households are the fastest growing demographic in the developed world, their needs are often overlooked. Obesity and poor nutrition caused by overconsumption of uh junk food, I just call it junk. Although you know what, I don't allow anyone to use in my house the word junk food. I don't allow it.
+
+[34:40] We have a ban on that at MoFed, too. Because I was yelling and screaming about it, or do you have your own banana? No, just in general, yeah. I think it's terrible. It's junk food, super food, anything that's just sort of on the any moralizing of food, I think is a bad and you know.
+
+[34:53] I tried to write a piece on that. We talk about junk people. Yeah, yeah, poor quality people. But I think there is food that's no, there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's food that's just poorly made, but like the problem with junk, it's calling food junk, is that it then sets it up as something that you kind of want.
+
+[35:09] It's like this like first of all, guilty pleasure. Oh, it's so decadent. Oh, my food is so decadent. I'm gonna put slices of cucumber on my eyes and my back and enjoy this decadent guilty pleasure. Yeah, guilty pleasure, being sinful.
+
+[35:24] No, it's food. Like either it's well made and it tastes good and makes you happy, or it's crap and garbage and you shouldn't eat it. You know what I mean? It's like uh anyway, okay. Uh overconsumption of junk food is on the rise.
+
+[35:38] I believe single people are more like I'm back to reading the question. Uh are more likely to eat prepackaged meals because they can't be bothered cooking just for themselves. I think that's true. But I don't eat prepackaged meals because I just eat cook eggs. As I like to say.
+
+[35:53] As like I say, when when I don't know, I have nice cheese in my free fridge, thank you. But like, you know, uh when life ha hands you eggs, suck eggs. Right? Um they need help. These are single people.
+
+[36:06] Back to the question. I'm a single woman and want to help people who live alone, uh, cook and eat good, healthy food, not just for their health, but because they deserve it. Uh cooking is something I enjoy. Is it Claire? I don't know who is this.
+
+[36:18] Louise Harper. Uh now you made me lose my train of thought. Like, that's hard. Uh cooking is something I enjoy, be it for myself or my friends and family. I want to inspire others to feel the same.
+
+[36:28] Freshly cooked food using natural ingredients. Although natural, I have my problems with the word natural. In fact, like I have huge problems with the word natural because if you buy into natural, right, the problem is that you think that the stuff that you're buying out that says natural on it is somehow what you want. What you want is people to go buy whole things like celery and make things out of it. Like something that is like celery flavored that is all natural is just as kind of reconstituted and discombobulated as anything else.
+
+[36:57] Look, even like Mary and Nessel believes the word natural means nothing. And when yeah the problem with a word that means nothing that carries connotations with it is is that people make decisions based on it and they're being uh bamboozled. That's the issue. Uh yeah, everyone in the business like knows that it is an absurdity. Yeah.
+
+[37:16] And yet pe like millions of dollars are spent by people thinking that they're doing the right thing by themselves and their family, buying things that say natural, and it's a word with zero meaning. I would say a good exercise is just in one day look for the word natural in all the food that you eat and just see where it appears. And that will, I think, kind of be illuminating just doing that. Yeah. In fact, or if you want to know more about the subject, come to the Museum of Food and Drink on 62 Bayard Street, but I was playing McKimming Park in the Uh so you can uh see how the word natural has been perverted over the last hundred and ten years.
+
+[37:54] Oh six, right? No, oh nine. Was that all just a setup for a MoFad ad? Basically. That's great.
+
+[37:59] That was really good. I have my pseudonym Louise. Yeah. Anyway, we're back to we're back to Luis Harper. Uh anyway, my recipes are for healthy food, not health food.
+
+[38:10] And here's the important part, and here's where we totally agree. Sharing she says my, but s sharing a streamlined approach to cooking with your listeners will help take a lot of stress out of cooking. So uh will my hand send tips on shopping, setting up a pantry, etc. Kitching tools. When your kitchen is well equipped and well stocked, cooking is way easier.
+
+[38:28] Uh sincerely, Louise Harper, her her uh blog is single serve.net dot AU, so Australian. I have no idea what shopping I've never been to Australia. I don't know what supermarkets are like there. But I think it's true. I think nine times out of ten, the problem with people cooking in general uh at home is that they they they don't have a streamlined procedure.
+
+[38:46] That's why, like uh if you want to use a piece of equipment, keep it out on your counter. If you don't have space for it, just realize you're never gonna use it again. Like uh I've said this a billion times, but like once my pasta maker got taken off of the counter, my rollers, I stopped making pasta. And I had to be making it for years, at least once a week because I could see it there, and my kitchen A was right next to it, and I knew how to like bust that stuff out. You know what I really want?
+
+[39:09] This is it. You know what I really want? I want the KitchenAid pasta rollers. But they're too expensive. Why do they cost 200 bucks?
+
+[39:15] Someone out there, please tell me. For God's name, why is the KitchenAid pasta roller set $200 when an Atlas like pasta roller with the same rollers on it that clamps to your counter? It's like, what are those things cost us? Do you even know? They're like $50.
+
+[39:29] It's seven $79.99, Dave. What? KitchenAid pasta roller? Yeah. I got it for $80 here online.
+
+[39:34] 199. How many rollers does yours come with? I don't know. This is Bed Bath and Beyond. I need the roller and the cutter.
+
+[39:40] I actually don't need the cutter. I really only need the roller. I can cut pasta myself. I have hands. My fault.
+
+[39:44] That's just the attachment. Yeah. No, but that's all you need. But but usually it comes with three attachments, two different sizes for the thick noodles and the thin noodles and the roller. Right.
+
+[39:52] Yeah, that's $160 for all three. Yeah, I don't need all three, though. They sell just the roller. I'll find out here. I mean, again, my hands work.
+
+[40:00] I can cut. Uh you think this year, because it's the year of SARS, I should get back into cutting soba again. Remember when I was on my cutting soba kick? Yeah. My soba knife sits unused in my n my lower drawer weird Japanese knife case.
+
+[40:14] Yeah. Anyways. Uh okay. Uh hi. Hi, I've been listening to the radio show in the car or while I'm cooking or walking, uh, which explain uh all things where it's a pain to stop and take notes.
+
+[40:26] Also, from the show's notes, it's sometimes a bit tricky to remember which show certain things happen. This is for you, Jack. I don't know if you saw this. This is a long way of saying, wouldn't it be cool if there were transcripts? Oh boy.
+
+[40:36] If there are already transcripts, then just ignore me for being a bit slow. If not, I had an idea. Transcripts could go onto the podcast and make them more searchable, Jack. Or they could go on a wiki or something and get cross-reference and link by cooking issues fans slash nerd. Uh it might even be a lazy way to write a book, which I do need to write a book on.
+
+[40:55] You know what uh Father Bill uh Daly, Father he, you know, he he's the cocktail uh he thinks I should write cocktail priest. He thinks I should write uh a book called uh useful rants. Rance. Oh yeah. Rance by Dave Arnold.
+
+[41:08] Not Rance Prebis, Rants. No. Uh okay. I've been getting all nerdy about getting things transcribed through Rev.com recently. They do a pretty good job and cost one dollar a minute.
+
+[41:18] But if there are two hundred and thirty-one episodes, then that's a shade over ten grand, Jack. Ten grand. Yeah. It's a lot of money to find out of nowhere, but think of Kickstarter would make it easy. If uh if one of the reward tiers was fifty dollars and you get your name at the top of one of the episode transcripts, it'd be easy.
+
+[41:33] With that much volume, you'd probably get a good discount on transcription too. Anyway, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Kickstarter.
+
+[41:39] I think we should have an intern do it by hand. Yeah, Erica just said that here in the booth. Damn. Get the Umpa Loompas doing it. That's right.
+
+[41:47] Can we get them to sing the songs? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like when we're do doing stuff, can they just say that like if we were given good manners, we would go far? You know that little storage room in the basement we have at MoFad. There's a murder room in MoFad you have to walk down to it.
+
+[41:58] That's where we keep the Umpalumpas. Dumb. Um the Oopaloo is a great. And one of the many reasons why, although I love Johnny Depp, that that the more recent movie is a travesty, because of the way that's a more recent one. Oh man.
+
+[42:11] Well, where have you been? I've been building the freaking. Oh, oh no, that's a lie. This movie came out like in like in like eleven or twelve. All right.
+
+[42:20] Liar. Liar. Just a twinkle in your eye at that point. The museum that is. Okay.
+
+[42:25] Uh minutes, two minutes, two minutes. Oh, geez. Uh, hope you're well. It's been a long time uh since we see each other. This is from Chris.
+
+[42:31] Uh I'll cut a cut right to it. Although he does mention the last time I had the pleasure of seeing you, uh, I believe you accident accidentally in question mark, shot sub zero vodka in my sinus with a syringe at tails of the cocktail. Uh I may not be remembering it correctly, but either way, I've got some seriously clean sinuses. I listen to the podcast often, usually when I'm out in the run, it never fails to teach me something. Uh I'm working now on opening a new beer spot in Seattle called No Anchor, and finally have time to focus on some finer issues in a beer bar that I've never gotten to properly tackle.
+
+[43:00] Green design further than the exploration of beer cocktails, etc. To save on time, water, energy, and labor, the only cocktails we were doing will be draft and bottled cocktails that use beer in some way. For bottling cocktails that use beer, especially those that feature beer, in which we are concerned with maintaining hop qualities, we will ideally be using glass that blocks the proper wavelengths of light, brown as opposed to clearer green. Should I be concerned with whether a brown beer bottle can withstand the pressure of a carbonated cocktail? Do you have any experience with doing corked and caged cocktails in large format?
+
+[43:26] No. Although I want to, but I would be using probably champagne style bottles because they're designed to cork and then cage, and you can fairly cheaply get a um uh champagne corker to do it. I don't think those will fit standard beer bottles, but you probably could use a brown beer bottle that's meant for a Belgian style one that's bigger, right? One that's more of a seven fifty format, in which case it's fine. They will handle those larger bottles will easily handle like up to four volumes, and you're not probably gonna get above four volumes in a beer cocktail anyway, so they should.
+
+[43:55] The lighter, cheaper beer bottles, right, capping them and trying to get them to go in, some of them might have rupture problems when you're getting into the four or four and a half volumes range, but most of the time they'll be okay. And if you let them come up to room temp after you've bottled them and put them somewhere, uh, just like once you chill them down again, they're definitely safe. So they might explode, especially if you get secondary fermentation inside of one of the one of them, which is a distinct possibility because you're adding sugar. That's where you're gonna look out, right? So you're either gonna want to kill off fermentation uh so that there's no more yeast that's alive in it, or you might run into problems with explosion if they're left at room temperature.
+
+[44:31] If you leave them at fridge temperature, they will build over time. You might still get some explosions, but you never know. But it's it's something to be aware of when you're bottling cocktails for a long period of time that they're gonna change over time if there's live yeast. And even if there's not, unless you add something to actually destroy yeast, right? Like a preservative that kills yeast, you're gonna have issues with yeast in this stuff in the stuff uh fermenting and reducing your sugar levels as well as increasing your carbonation levels.
+
+[44:54] Second, as oxygen is the enemy of beer, and there are any methods you would suggest to testing when transferring beer from a keg into a corny keg for draft cocktail, are the effects of light noxygen going to be moot once we roll the beer uh up into a full cocktail and be served within a week, or there are small steps I can take to get that extra little pop jazz hands. Thanks for your time. Chris Alford, uh, who's a certified cysterone, which is a beer thing. Okay, uh, you're not gonna get a lot of uh oxygen during the transfer simply because it's already carbonated. So if you as long as it's already carbonated before you do the transfer, it's continually effervescond, and because it's continually effervescing, it doesn't have a lot of time to do a lot of oxygen uptake to it, and it before it kind of forms its own barrier.
+
+[45:30] You can pre-purge your kegs and everything with CO2 to make sure that you're not you're not dumping into oxygen and getting some mixing there. Uh and you can then post carbonate again into the keg and do a couple flash offs to make sure you've gotten any uh oxygen out and you have primarily uh CO2 in there. But hopefully that works. Uh so I'm being told that we're out of time. Next week I'm gonna talk to Alex about Cook's illustrated review of black or blue, depending on how you talk about it, steel pans versus cast iron, and what I think about cast iron and steel pans.
+
+[45:58] And that's cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England cure-all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Food. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from roughly 12-ish. A little late today. 1212. 1212 is a nice number though.
+
+[0:46] To roughly 1245, 1250, depending on when we get we only start the show on nice numbers. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well we should start at 8, and then we can always have it start at 808, and we can have a sweet the sweet. Cowbell?
+
+[0:59] No. I like the boom. The kick, yeah, go ahead. Of course. But that's that's that's that's so mainstream though, like the 808 base.
+
+[1:06] The cowbell is the onside. That's a great point, Peter. Well, no, Peter has betrayed his his oldness. I would say that the average young person has no idea what an 808 is, doesn't remember who the Beastie Boys were when they started name checking the 808 or anything about it. Oh, you're wrong.
+
+[1:20] 808 has had a a good uh r renaissance and resurgence. Well, nothing sounds quite like an 808. Can we hear that? Do you have it? I can pull up an 808.
+
+[1:28] Yeah, give me a second here. We'll make it happen. What's Da's laughing at? This guy is enamored with Dave. Nah, not even can't take his eyes off you.
+
+[1:36] That's because I'm a freak. All right, so listen. This is your thing. This is just the 808 beat we're gonna play. 808.
+
+[1:49] Let's see. Make no mistake. Well, this is what happens when you pull up YouTube. You never know. Oh, there's uh oh yeah.
+
+[1:57] See, like that's that's like that's like the 80s 808. That's like run DMC style 808. Yeah, exactly. Oh, too bad Dave can't rap over this. Well, you know, apparently Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink, who's here with us again today, uh, used to do freestyling.
+
+[2:13] Yep. Known rapper, but known liar. Oh wow. Out was that your rap name, known liar? Known liar.
+
+[2:21] Exactly. Wow. Damn. Wow. Stop.
+
+[2:25] You know, Peter called me at 9 50 p.m. on Monday. Yeah. Being yesterday. Do you know why that's important?
+
+[2:32] No, why is that important? It's bachelor season. Do you know what happens at 950? A rose ceremony. Yeah.
+
+[2:39] Well, I think you can hear that Nastasia Hammer Lopez is with us today, as usual, with her love of The Bachelor, which is New Season. Is The Bachelor as bad for America as the Jerry Springer show? I don't think so. No. No, I don't think so.
+
+[2:54] And joined as usual in the engineering booth with Jack Jackie Molecules Insley. What do you think, Jack? Um, I I have to I have to say something. Somebody just tweeted at us like 15 minutes ago, and uh they sent me this. They said this is for Jackie Molecules, and I have to play it.
+
+[3:08] It's 10 seconds long. Ready? The molecular man! Wow. Right?
+
+[3:24] Wow. Wow, what is that? It's a Conan O'Brien sketch, the molecular man. It's got the same voice as uh Will Farrell from um Mega Mind. Remember that movie?
+
+[3:35] No, I've never seen it. Get some freaking kids. Not yet. Alright. Uh wait, so what the hell else were we talking about?
+
+[3:43] 808s. Peter's rapping. Peter's rapping. 808s, heartbreaks. Oh, see, now he's starting his freestyle career again.
+
+[3:50] No, it's a Kanye West reference. Oh, really? Come on. Come on. Wait, it must is it more recent, Kanye?
+
+[3:56] Not so recent. I mean, is it after you stop being good? Circa 2008, nine. Yeah, it was a while ago, man. Whatever.
+
+[4:05] Peter Kim does not care about Kanye West. Okay. Here we go. Dear Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. And actually Peter had a uh Peter had a uh comment on this earlier.
+
+[4:16] This is last week's question. Cooks Illustrated recently ran an equipment test on carbon steel pans and concluded that they were a better choice than cast iron for home cooks. But none of the chefs I read and listen to have ever mentioned carbon steel skillets. You and Kenji Lopez Alt both seem enamored with your cast iron. I'm enamored strong.
+
+[4:34] I mean, you know, like, you know, if there was a fire, first of all, the cast iron would survive, but I would save my family first. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? I was about to go on to a parmigiano Reggiano rant for my honeymoon, but I won't do it. Uh I won't do it.
+
+[4:51] Uh it won't have to be. You like the Parmigiana, you love your wife. That's what the guy said to me, because I couldn't know how in Italian to say that, you know, I was like, I love the Parmigiana Region. Whatever. We got a lot of free hats and Parmesan knives.
+
+[5:06] Anyway, uh, can you comment? Uh flush with cash from Christmas. I am trying to decide whether whether to buy a large cast iron pan or the carbon steel pan, Cook's Illustrated recommends from Motfur. Uh Motfer Bourgeois. You want to pronounce that with your fake French uh accent too?
+
+[5:22] Uh do it Cameroonian French. I guess it would be uh But to Vuin Poil Matfou. Peter K, of course, lived in Cameron. Well I lived in Cameroon, guys for two and a half years. No liar.
+
+[5:39] Wow. This one is currently sold out because of the demand generated by their review. Please advise uh Alex. So here's the d here's my issue. Here's my point on the Dil Dilio.
+
+[5:49] Uh current no offense to the Lodge folks, because didn't we meet them once or something like that? I wish that Lodge would come out with a set of cast iron um a set of cast iron pans that had the uh inside sanded so that it was smooth, like the old school polished cast iron. Because those suckers are uh awesome. But um in my opinion, uh trying to compare the two uh trying to compare the two styles of pans, cast iron versus uh black steel, is kind of like missing the the point. It's like not like I wouldn't use them for the same for the same things.
+
+[6:27] I think like the comparison, which I think also Cooks Illustrated makes, is between the uh black steel pan, as I always call it, and the um in a regular non stick uh nonstick uh skillet, right? And so you know, I think they're good. I think they're they're very good. They the cast iron and and the black steel are both uh steel, right? I mean not steel, they're iron fundamentally, but they this the the surface of them both form nonstick uh finishes in exactly the same way.
+
+[7:00] So in in the same way that a wok, which is in essence a black steel pan, right, in the same way that a walk becomes nonstick over time, uh as it's seasoned, uh, so will uh black steel. What? They're staring at me like in a very strange way. See, okay, I have to go on a tangent. I'm sorry, Alex, for not answering your question in in total before I go off on this tangent.
+
+[7:22] But Peter Kim cannot uh like uh sit in in an auditorium or in front of a group of people and have Nastasia and I near him making faces at him because he just breaks up. He's like freaking uh he's like one of those Saturday Night Live characters that like can't not laugh during a freaking uh so he's trying to do something like that, but it's not even phasing me. You don't understand that like my whole family is partially autistic, so I cannot be phased. I'm unfadable. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:54] One quick knowing glance. We have a caller that's been really patient on the line after. Alright, caller, call okay, okay, okay. We'll take the caller and then we'll finish the black and iron. Anyway, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[8:06] I did Andrew from Pittsburgh here. How you doing? Uh I'm doing well, how are you? Good. You know who I found out lives in Pittsburgh?
+
+[8:12] You know who Betty Davis is, the uh the musician from the seventies? Yep. Yeah, she lives in Pittsburgh, I think. I think after she dropped out of the music business, she just like was like, crap on it. I'm moving I think that's where she lives, Pittsburgh.
+
+[8:23] Pittsburgh was named the top food city by Zagat, I believe recently. Over in New York? Yeah. Really? What do you think about that?
+
+[8:32] Uh I mean there's a bunch of really cool restaurants and stuff in Pittsburgh. I don't know, it's definitely not better than New York. I mean New York is the food capital of the world, but this would be awesome. Thank you for just crushing the Zagat on your own. I like that a lot.
+
+[8:44] All right, so where are we going? What do we got? Uh the question that I had related to frozen margaritas out of uh kind of a frozen margarita slushing machine. Yep. Um all the mixes for those are garbage.
+
+[8:54] And I'm trying to figure out how to make uh a delicious frozen margarita um while having something that you can batch and have and I'm sorry, I'm a bartender, and so having something you can bash and have around for a while, because limes go bad so quickly, even though they're very delicious. How do you make a um frozen margarita mix that you can that you can hold for some period of time to be realistic to serve in a restaurant? How long? First of all, I like the use of garbage, exactly right. They're a garbage.
+
+[9:23] We should have a garbage noise, Jack, as part of our New Year's thing, just garbage. Garbage sound effect? Garbage. They like you know, the margarita mix is a garbage. Like it's just be like, you know what I mean?
+
+[9:32] Anyway. I mean you could do the red garbage. No, you want I know something better. I'll work on it. Anyway, it's a Sega guy, but garbage.
+
+[9:38] Garbage. Anyway, but like uh so how long do you need it to last? Uh I I mean not super super long, but uh several days. You don't have to kind of sit there and babysit it all the time. I mean, probably no longer than three or four days, but um big that you wouldn't really need to worry about.
+
+[9:54] Uh the thing that I'm kind of chasing down right now is just doing the lime acid that you do with citric malic and secinic acid, and then just do water, triple sec, tequila, uh, agave, a little bit of salt, and then do like a lime acid uh kind of mix for that to get you the lime taste. Um what do you think about that versus doing straight lime? I mean, obviously I would prefer to do lime, but yeah. Uh I mean here's the here's the issue, right? I mean, lime uh lime changes, obviously.
+
+[10:23] The good news about frozen specs is frozen specs typically have less because they're more diluted, um, and because the you know, just because of their structure, they typically have less lime in them than let's say a uh shaken margarita would, right? And so the the less lime, actual lime is in there, the the less of the detrimental nonsense you're gonna have based on uh lime degradation. Right? That that said, you know, it's a hundred percent gonna be noticeable. So here's the other problem you're gonna have is that if you make a batch on day one and let's say you're gonna keep it for three days, the batch will taste fairly the same on day two as it does on day three, but it's not gonna taste the same as it does on day one.
+
+[11:12] And so, you know, one thing you could do is you're gonna say, okay, listen, like I'm just gonna balance these all these drinks around uh like one and two-day old lime juice, right? Because then probably the difference between two and three is not gonna be that big big of a deal either. So if you just keep some lime juice around uh and then run some uh batch tests on uh like doing your bat doing your initial batch with day old lime juice and get it to taste where you want. And then you could put just the amount in that you uh that you desire. Another thing you could do, it's it's not gonna taste like a margarita, it's gonna taste uh different is to base your specs around a uh cordial, right?
+
+[11:50] Cordial lasts forever, right? So then you take your lime juice and heat it uh with sugar and do your you know, do your batching around that, and it won't be the same because it's gonna lack some of that the uh brightness, right? But you could pop, you could pop back in um, you could pop back in some of that brightness from uh fresh lime. Here's another thing you can do. You can use regular lime, right, to give some of that li limeiness, and then use a uh orange with lime acid added to it, and that'll give keep because the orange, sour you know, like uh acid-adjusted orange juice keeps its brightness longer than um than lime does, right?
+
+[12:32] So you could do a mix with acid adjusted OJ, right? If you only have a little bit of lime in there, uh and orange is a flavor in uh in margaritas anyway, right? So you could do something like that, and then you know you wouldn't have as much of the um day two, day three blues with the margaritas as in fact I've done margarita style specs that have are entirely done with acid-adjusted OJ, just so that I don't have to deal with uh lime juice going bad. Right. How do you deal with the um the orange juice becoming bitter?
+
+[13:05] I was looking into the the kind of extra chemistry of that a while ago. The I'm totally facing all the names. Yeah, it's totally dependent on the genetics of the particular orange you use. So um, you know, as long as you know you g run a test like you run a test, you juice it, and you see whether or not it goes bitter. It happens within like several hours, right?
+
+[13:24] So like some some tangerines are like get incredibly bitter, and uh, you know, some uh don't. I mean the the real problem from a bar perspective is that we're getting navels in, right? I mean, at least if you're like me, you're getting navels in because you're using the peel. And you're not and you're not gonna get crappy looking, you know. Okay, listen, everyone knows California citrus looks good and Florida citrus looks terrible, even though Florida citrus is typically the one used for juices because they don't care about peels, right?
+
+[13:54] So you're not you're not gonna get Florida, and it's just it's just a question of climate. I'm not saying that the Floridians are bad people and they can't grow good citrus, it's the climate. Uh ugly, I mean, you know, so that the so you know, you you're not gonna want to pull in like a bunch of valencias so that you can get like the juice you want, and then have to still throw away the juice from your navel. So like we're very lucky the navels that we get don't go bitter. Uh and you know, it's just a test we've run.
+
+[14:19] But then, you know, someday some knucklehead might decide to switch the supplier, get a different kind of navel in, and who knows we'll get hosed. Because I have read that some navels will get bitter, although I know ours don't. That's all I can that's I mean, that's basically all I can say about that. But you're definitely gonna want your oranges to do double duty. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[14:37] Right. Yeah, I mean I I hate throwing all those away, you know, whenever you're talking about that always I love finding ways to repurpose things where you get that. Oh yeah, and so like if you can use them in margaritas, right? So if you have a mach if you have a machine, what that tells me is that you're doing high volumes on margaritas, which means you have a use for a lot of OJ. If if you can purpose your OJ into it, you know what I mean?
+
+[14:56] You're you're you're probably gonna get good use. And you can put a relatively large amount of OJ into a margarita to good effect because like I said, orange is already one of the flavors that's in there. Right. So that that's the direction that you would go is do lime acid OJ, uh and then make your mixture on that and balance it on day old uh juice. Yeah, or like I say, try a cordial, see whether see whether you like it.
+
+[15:17] Um But yeah, I would I would yeah, I would I would go that route. And by the way, like uh what I would do is uh, you know, just to save yourself some uh time and headache, I would I would do like two drink versions of all the different batches you want to try, throw them in ziplocks and then throw them in your freezer, uh and then just kind of rough them up to taste them. It'll give you a good approximation for what your slushy machine will do, uh, but you won't have to fill an entire selection machine to do it. Oh, would you do like a dead rabbit where they do the oleo and then sugar and juice? What's say that again?
+
+[15:49] Uh the way the dead rabbit does their uh cordial where they do uh an oleo with the lime and then they do the juice and do it that way, or would you do a different I mean well like like I'm real uh look, we have a lot of clarified lime juice left over, so when I do a cordial, I want it to be dead clear, like roses. So like I don't necessarily do it as like I would do it if I was gonna have a cloudy cordial from the ground up. So for me it's less I just do clarified lime juice, uh sugar and uh lime peel. Uh so I don't make an oleo and I don't extract any of that extra stuff from it, and um, you know, I just get a little extra punch out of the out of the lime peel. But you definitely don't want to use clarified lime juice for this application.
+
+[16:30] So I don't know, like you know, uh, you know, taste the dead rabbits, and if it's that's a flavor profile you want, then do it. Otherwise just boil some freaking lime juice with some sugar and and some lime peel in it as a first approximation, see which one you like better. You know what I mean? Uh look, we have we have a tons of leftover lime juice, so and I'm sure you do too. So taking a little bit of that and just, you know, boiling it with some sugar and seeing whether you like it is like, you know, no brainer.
+
+[16:53] Right. All right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. No problem.
+
+[16:55] Good luck. Thanks. Bye. What if I just play everybody out with an eight oh eight beat today? All right.
+
+[17:02] Hey, I have to say thanks to Nastasia who got me an early birthday present, which is a DJ cheese grater. It's a cheese grater that looks like a turntable. You want to see it? Yeah, I do. Uh oh my oh.
+
+[17:16] You're killing me because I need the baseline to come in. Jiggy Jiggy Jiggy. It's just drums today. We'll get there. All right.
+
+[17:21] I'm like, let's say let me see some here. Uh so you actually wouldn't kill yourself here. You could like just get rid of some, like you could use it for your feet. Yeah. I'm not sure if you could use it for your feet.
+
+[17:34] Jack, that's the beginning of Southern Playolistic, right? Catalag funky music. Oh, it's a bit similar. I think so. Yeah.
+
+[17:39] Nice. It's one of those YouTube videos. It's like, you know. Alright. Oh, there you go.
+
+[17:47] Oh, yeah. But this wasn't that wasn't my that's not like that's not like my growing up sound. It's the prior stuff's my growing up sound. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:54] Yeah. Anyway, so back to where we were. We were talking about Alex uh and Cooks Illustrated and uh their their cast iron. So I looked up on Cooks Illustrated's uh website. And uh by the way, Peter, because he's a a francophile, he likes him these kinds of black steel pans, right?
+
+[18:11] That's not because I'm a francophile. I just I like I like my egg pan a lot. Oh, it's great for eggs. That's why I uh for me the main thing is really it's like the weights, right? And you know, cast iron's great for getting a good sear on, right?
+
+[18:24] But like I don't want to be flipping around a really heavy cast iron pan to make my sunny side up eggs. So you're weak. That's one way to look at you bastard. Oh man. Yeah.
+
+[18:38] But that is stuff in the morning. You're gonna use you're gonna use a freaking cast iron pan to make your. Okay, you know what I have? I have because they're incredibly cheap. I have you know the fajita, the sizzles, the sizzle plates, like the uh oblong like uh cast iron things.
+
+[18:52] I have like six of those sitting right next to my stone bowls, and they seem a whole lot lighter than my Korean stone bowls do. You know what I mean? And so like I drop them on the on the uh on the on my range, and then you know, boom, I'm off to the races. No, look, if you're making an omelet, you're gonna be like moving the pan around. You don't want to have to deal with something super bulky.
+
+[19:14] No, I think they make great omelet pans. Yeah, that's that's my primary use for it. Yeah, I mean, fantastic omelet pans, and you know, uh for most people, I think uh omelets and cast iron can be difficult because it takes a long time for the heat to spread out evenly. Um let's get back to what uh what Cooks Illustrated specifically said about black steel, and then we'll we'll uh we'll have discussions about it. Okay.
+
+[19:37] Uh in their opinion, it sears like cast iron. A carbon steel skillet can brown food just as deeply and evenly as cast iron. It also has two advantages, it heats up more quickly, and it's lighter weight makes it easier to handle. What we have here is an oxymoronic station. Yeah, the the two things don't go aware together.
+
+[19:54] Yeah, that's like saying, like that's like saying, you know, the sky is blue, but really it's not blue at all. Like you can't, you can't like it's just the the two phrases don't fit. It doesn't sear as well as cast iron, but it heats up more quickly. Yeah, it's like when Spock said, I'm a liar, well, Epamenides, I guess, not really Spock. You know, I'm a liar.
+
+[20:12] I'm lying. You know what I mean? Yeah. You can't, it's a contradiction. Yeah.
+
+[20:16] Uh a carbon steel skillet cannot brown food as uh as deeply for a given uh uh initial heat input. It's it's not the case. You know what I mean? It's like, and the reason is going back to one of the purported advantages, it's lighter and heats up more quickly. Right.
+
+[20:32] The fact that it is lighter and heats up more quickly means it is not storing as much heat, right? Because it heated up more quickly, therefore it didn't store as much heat before it delivered it to your food, otherwise it wouldn't have heated up more quick, and it weighs less, so it's not storing as much energy, especially because they are fundamentally similar in their heat storage properties. Now, the carbon steel is a lot better heat conductor, right? Which is why it's gonna be more more even for a given level of quick overheating, right? But if you really want to sear the ever loving crap out of something, right?
+
+[21:04] Nothing beats uh keeping your cast iron pans in a uh hot oven where it gets incredibly even heat and the whole thing turns into like a searing machine, then throwing it on top of a burner for residual heat and throwing meat in it. Just you can't beat that. You know what I mean? And um not that people necessarily go through that trouble. And I think that if you were searing meat, I think also a lot depends on the burners that you have, right?
+
+[21:27] So, you know, I have my burners at home are r ridiculous. I mean, they're in fact they're not safe. It's not my fault because it's because uh my you know, my wife said, you know, you're too old for this crap, we're gonna hire a plumber. The plumber didn't install it properly, didn't put the proper regulator on my oven, and so my my burners now are very hard to use on low, but they put out eight bazillion BTUs. You see my burning.
+
+[21:51] They have a mind of their own. They're crazy, they go up and down, but when they're on scream, they scream. Like I can run a walk like a professional restaurant can because they're so freaking like powerful, too powerful, uh, for most applications, except for walk. Um which I like, I like it to walk. But the um where was I going with this?
+
+[22:11] So the point is if you have a tiny burner, right? I would prefer to have a pan that heated kind of quickly and more evenly because you just don't have enough power to really get anything up to the temperatures that I'm gonna want to do that kind of work, in which case maybe you should consider getting a cast iron and throwing it in your oven and heating it uh beforehand up to a hot temperature so you can search yeah? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so we've already seen the very first thing, no offense to Cooks Illustrated because you know, the magazine in 1993 when it first came out was like like changed my life, like honestly. Um, for me it's primarily weight, heat retention, and then the smoothness of the surface.
+
+[22:47] Yeah. Well, their their next uh point uh about the uh black steel is performs like stainless uh triply, which let's just call it all clad. Let's just say all clad, like an all clad similar devices, right? Uh they say carbon steel heats virtually as evenly as stainless steel triply uh aluminum sandwich between stainless, but can brown more deeply. Our winner costs one third of the price of our favorite triply skillet from Alclad.
+
+[23:14] Right. So it costs less than all clad, but um I don't really think it's gonna heat as as evenly. I've done many studies, but I haven't done it for years, but I've done many studies of different pans over different heat sources, and I think again, a lot of this depends on your uh burner. So, in particular, induction burners, like most home crappy induction burners, where they fall flat, is the fact that the actual heating element is quite small. So, what you should do to any one of your pans, or if you can test them is uh, you know, McGee uses beans and paper.
+
+[23:43] I use a light dusting of flour, and I put it on the hob and I wait to see what the burn pattern is on the thing, and you can see very clearly how even or not even a particular uh kind of heat transfer um heat transfer uh pattern is. But I mean, I just I like they say virtually carbon steel heats virtually as evenly. What does that even mean? Virtually as evenly. Means not, right?
+
+[24:10] Means almost as good. Anyway, as slick as nonstick. Carbon steel is as slippery as black brand new nonstick, but it sears better, doesn't have a synthetic coating. Well, it does have it's not synthetic, but it has a coating of polymerized oil. So you mean there is in fact a coating on black steel pants because if there wasn't, it wouldn't be non stick.
+
+[24:27] Steel, as it comes from the factory, is not in fact non stick. You have to season it. Uh has no uh oven safe temperature limits. Also not true. If you stick it in the oven and you put the oven on uh self-clean, you'll ruin the seasoning on it and have to do it again.
+
+[24:42] In fact, if you've poorly seasoned a pan, the best way to fix it is to throw it in the oven on self-clean where it gets wiped off. What they mean is no reasonable limits. I think that's what they mean, no reasonable limits uh and last forever. That's true. Here are the problems with uh the only problems you if you go into a professional restaurant and you see the black steel, if it's treated poorly, a lot of times um because they are thinner than cast iron, here's where they don't work as well as cast iron.
+
+[25:05] Uh because they're thinner, if you uh viciously overheat them, they warp in the center. So, like a cast iron pan, uh I mean, a cast iron pan's never gonna warp, right? Also, they they talk about how cast iron's a problem because it's brittle. Have you ever seen a cast iron pan break in normal service? Nope.
+
+[25:21] No. At home? No. I've seen cast iron burner spiders break all the time. So I prefer steel spiders in in on an oven.
+
+[25:31] Uh you know what I'm talking about, the burner covers, you know what I'm saying? I prefer them every day. But uh I don't know. Like I just see them as different. I think if you're gonna make omelets, buy you uh buy you a an omelet pan that's made of black steel, it's awesome.
+
+[25:44] I'm gonna also go out on a limb here and say that like did I ever mention Jeffrey Steingarden? You know what he always used to say? He's like, uh knives are l are are like puppies, right? You like they're always good when they're new, right? Like it's like it's like how well it works, like after you've had it for a while.
+
+[26:01] Like, you know, does it resharpen? Does it stop pooping on your floor? You know, stuff like this, right? And I'm gonna extend this out to uh nonstick skillets, right? So nonstick skillets, like when you first get them, you're like, it's awesome.
+
+[26:13] And then the manufacturer tells you, yeah, you know, you know how like everyone else's nonstick stuff like is gonna wear off over time? Ours isn't. They're like everyone else's like you know how everyone else says you can use metal uh tools, but you really can't? Well, and ours you can. Or you know how everyone else says that you can't dishwash it.
+
+[26:30] But new voice data. Yeah, nice product spokesman voice. I like that. Yeah, anyway. It's never true.
+
+[26:35] Like like they uh they're always they're they always crap out. They're the worst. They're worst. And like they're like puppies. They're great when you get 'em and then they turn to crap.
+
+[26:42] And so you know, I would say that like in general I w unless someone comes up with a nonstick that really freaking works, right? I'm not gonna buy 'em anymore. And the next time I need a nonstick pan, I will probably go out and buy a black steel pan. Um just because those I mean those those Teflon things are nonsense. Now another thing a black steel is never gonna be as good at generating uh give me your give me your Cameroonian French for phone.
+
+[27:05] For phone. Give it to me. Le phone. Le phone. The crusty stuff at the bottom.
+
+[27:16] Yeah, you can because you have to add the all the burbling crap beforehand. Like do you want the do you want the phone? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's all right. Yeah.
+
+[27:26] Uh my point being that like uh nonstick is not good when you wanna develop like some crusties, right? So if you want to emulate a ro this is why you don't use nonstick like roasting pants. They won't make sense. You know what I mean? So like if you're going to generate crusties, then I would say, you know, use your uh use your your allclads, you know, or your triplies.
+
+[27:46] One thing I'll say is that uh I got some bum advice from the interwebs on how to season my black steel pan. No, let's talk about it. Flaxseed oil. Flaxseed oil should like the so the theory of flaxseed oil is that uh it's a drying oil, and therefore you flax the same as linseed, right? Uh I don't know.
+
+[28:05] Isn't it? Isn't flax the same as linseed? I have no idea. Anyways, it's a drying oil, so it gets like uh it stickies up faster than uh other oils. Uh that's probably that's it's used in if flaxseed oil, and this by the way, I hadn't even looked this up in a million years, but if flaxseed oil is linseed oil, it's the oil used uh it's the drying oil used in oil paints.
+
+[28:24] Am I right on this? Can someone Google this crap? Google seems to suggest they're the same thing. Yeah. Uh is like my hands are too cold, I can't even pick up my phone.
+
+[28:32] Uh it's not even cold outside today. I mean it is, I guess. It is relative. Anyway. Uh point being that uh so what happened?
+
+[28:38] It gummed up and was a nightmare? Yeah, well then the big the main thing. No, it was actually great at first, but then it's uh starts flaking off. Yeah, if you do big flakes. If you in if you improperly season uh and you get these layers that can separate and it's a freaking nightmare.
+
+[28:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is why everyone like you know, so what was the advice? How did they say to do it? Well, so there's if there's you can look this up online.
+
+[28:58] It's a it's a well-visited site, and this woman gives us very long account on the science behind seasoning pans. It's very convincing, and she suggests using flaxseed oil. And I I follow their advice and screwed up my pan. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say that in my life, I I mean, I can't tell you how many pans I've seasoned, but you know dozens, many dozens, you know what I mean? And um uh I have never purchased in my life a special anything to do it.
+
+[29:30] Yeah, yeah. You know, I I always do it like uh and uh like in one of two ways, either like on the burner or in the oven. I think one of the main issues that people have is over-oiling, trying to get it all done at once. So, like, you know, get a rag and uh you know soak the rag in oil, do the the wipe, let it sit, wipe it out, let it let it polymerize, and do it again and again and again. And I've, you know, uh it's been a long time since I've ruined it.
+
+[30:00] I've ruined the initial work uh the initial seasoning I didn't went too thick on a crepe maker that I bought like 15, 16 years ago. Uh because when you buy a crepe maker, the real ones, the crampus ones, they've actually machined a spiral snail-like groove all the way around the um thing that's supposed to build up an oil coating over time because crepe makers have to be incredibly non stick. And I tried to do it too fast, and so I got flakies that never kind of went away. It still works, but it's like a little unsatisfying because you get those little divots and pits in the uh in the non but still works. Uh but yeah.
+
+[30:37] Yeah. A friend of mine just came, he's like, I messed up my wok. I over seasoned it, and now it's got big, you know, I try to season it with too much oil at once and it's got big drips in the bottom of the pan. He's like, what should I do? I was like, your SOL.
+
+[30:49] This is why, by the way, if you're buying something that needs to get seasoned, don't buy one that has a handle on it that can't go in the oven. Because by far and away, the easiest way to start from scratch is to just burn off the old old seasoning. And you can't do it. Uh you shouldn't do it with a torch or anything that's uneven unless it's like a cast iron, and you can't do it if there's a wooden handle on it, you can't take off. You can't throw it in the oven and put it on self-clean if it's got a wooden handle, like dirr.
+
+[31:15] You know what I mean? Hey, I got some clarification of flaxseed and linseed from uh Joel Stubb in the chat room. Shoot it. So they're both extracted from seeds of the plant, linumitasimu. I can't say that word.
+
+[31:26] Anyway, flaxseed oil is pure and fit for human consumption. Linseed oil goes through a refinement process and may contain additives that improve its paint cleaning properties. So don't cook with linseed oil, but cook with flaxseed. Uh all right, nice. Thank you.
+
+[31:42] Alright, so should we take a commercial brink and come back with it? Uh yeah, let's do that. Today's program was brought to you by Firesider. Did your grandmother ever tell you to drink raw apple cider vinegar? It's good advice and more common than you may think.
+
+[32:02] For generations of New Englanders, a tot of vinegar was a morning ritual. Taken daily, a tablespoon of unfiltered apple cider vinegar can help support immune function and digestive functions. To the base of certified organic apple cider vinegar, Firesider added whole raw certified organic oranges, lemons, onions, ginger, horseradish, habanero pepper, garlic, and turmeric. They let this mixture steep for six weeks at room temperature to preserve the living vinegar culture and delicate flavors of the ingredients. Lastly, they blend a generous helping of raw wildflower honey into the mix.
+
+[32:37] The result is potent but balanced, offering layers of sweet tart and spice. Firesider tastes great on its own, or is an addition to tea, juice, or salad. Firesider ships direct from their online store and is available at over 500 locations nationwide. Use their store locator to find one near you and ask for a free sample. For more information, visit Firesider.com.
+
+[33:02] Alright, we are back. Hey, uh, so Jack, have we ever tasted this stuff? Uh no. I want to try some. Yeah, me too.
+
+[33:09] I'll tell you something. My grandma never told me anything about apple cider vinegar. She was just like, why don't you go work? Why don't you do some work? Why don't you get same?
+
+[33:17] Do some freaking chores? How come I didn't have a grandma that gave me apple cider vinegar? No, my grandma's like, you know, why aren't you? If you can sit, like my grandma? Well, one of my two grandmas absolutely hated the act of reading.
+
+[33:29] And it was like one of my favorite things to do is like read and like learn. And she the thing she could stand on earth least was seeing people trying to learn. And so she would, you know, any time you try to try to sit down with a book, she would like just and my grandpa, one of the reasons he was bitter until the day he died was that uh he he also loved to read and and grandma would never ever, ever, ever let him read. If he had only lived long enough for like, you know, Audible to exist that he could just listen to that stuff while he was toiling away in the freaking uh in the freaking yard for no apparent reason. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[34:09] I know what you're saying. Like, you know. I know what you're saying. You know, uh anyway, whatever. So anyway, my my grandma, not apple cider, uh, and my other grandma was from West Virginia, so you know, it was more like Oh, really?
+
+[34:21] Yeah, it was more like uh yeah, so it was more like uh have some uh country ham and some uh and some lard. You know what I mean? That was the kind of cure all country ham and lard. Uh although, you know, they didn't have a lot of lard in the you know, when I was hanging out with her in the 70s, 80s, that was already kind of day class say, but we did have a lot of country ham uh and she did enjoy herself some uh red eye gravy, which is delicious. Okay.
+
+[34:44] Uh and we have a a note from Ben from last week saying it's loot fisk season in Minnesota. I remember Dave mentioning this slimy fish dish once on cooking issues, and uh and he's pointing out to us that we can go to uh CBS Minnesota did a finding Minnesota taste of loot fisk. So I'm gonna go look that up and see what that you like loot fist? Did you like that when we made it before? I don't remember it.
+
+[35:04] No. Well, we didn't actually make the loot fisk. What we did is we made uh we made the lye eggs, remember? And then we served it with regular fish, and it was kind of with nils. It was kind of a loot fisk turned on its kind of head.
+
+[35:16] You know what I mean? But it's like lye treated, basic treated fish. Speaking of which, if there is anyone who can hear my voice who's an expert on clearing and staining. Remember clearing and staining? We try to get someone to do that.
+
+[35:27] So in clearing and stating, what you do is you use a base uh base, uh, I believe, well, just much like the one in the 808, only this one's more potassium hydroxide. And you soak uh something like a fish in this base, it like kind of like messes with the proteins. You can leach out all of the color and everything in in something like a fish, right? And then you introduce stains to it, and you can selectively by using different uh like stains that are used also like in slides, you can have like the nervous system suck up a certain color and the skeletal system suck up another and then leach it back out of the muscular tissues, and you have these amazing 3D like fish and other animals. There's a book on it, but wouldn't you love to be able to clear and stain something big like a whole striper so that you could just see all the structure of the striper, that'd be pretty baller, right?
+
+[36:14] That'd be dope. Maybe for the museum. So if there's anyone out there who knows how to clear and stain. Now, typically they don't do it on such large thing large things, which is why all the pictures are small fish and frogs. But if someone wants to take on clearing and staining or knows someone that can help us out with large clearing and staining, that would be sweet.
+
+[36:30] Sweet. Oh, by the way, Dave, speaking of bases, you've got your want to plug your program coming up at the museum on February 4. Nice. I love that. On acids and bases.
+
+[36:41] What am I doing? You're doing bases. He's doing acids, yeah. So yeah, on programs.mofad.org, February 4. Come see Dave.
+
+[36:48] How much is it? It's forty five bucks. Forty five bucks? What do they get? Tastings, drinks.
+
+[36:53] Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. So what do we know what Johnny's gonna make? I don't know.
+
+[36:57] I we've got it down somewhere. It's on the website. Johnny, Johnny, our good friend from Mad Town. Yeah, yeah. Underground meats.
+
+[37:03] Yeah. Yeah. Good guy. We don't know what he we don't know what he's gonna do. He's gonna do something awesome.
+
+[37:07] You always just say it's gonna be great. Do we know what I'm gonna do? You know what I mean? Probably not until the morning up. It's gonna be good, people.
+
+[37:13] Something mad basic, yo. It's gonna be good. I'm gonna maybe I'll bring my nix to matic. Maybe we'll do some nixtimalization. Oh, hey, Patrick.
+
+[37:20] No, that's not that's not. That's bordering on Patrick. Peter, you're the only guy who's allowed to imitate Patrick on the on the network. That's you know. Okay.
+
+[37:28] Hello, Dave and crew, longtime listener and fan. I'll cut straight to the change Chase, my fiance and I are planning a wedding this coming fall or perhaps summer, uh, and uh are on a fairly limited budget. We've already identified numerous cost cutting measures, but remain a fair amount above our goal. While I am not suggesting that we personally prepare a full food and beverage program for 140 people, I was curious if it might be possible to make a meaningful dent in the total cost. I have a fair amount of equipment I picked up at auctions over the years listed below.
+
+[37:59] And power shouldn't be an issue. So let's see what they got here. They got uh this is John, by the way, in in uh Portland. Uh three circulators. Did I say circulator?
+
+[38:09] Circle circulator. Maine. Maine. Come on. Uh uh, I don't know why I say come on.
+
+[38:17] But like I don't know, I don't know why I say come on. I don't know. Portland, Maine. It's Portland, Maine. Uh, because Maine was in my head.
+
+[38:22] That's why I say come on. Uh three circulators, one Randell FX, uh, fridge freezer, one Vacmaster VP one twelve, one twenty pound CO2 tank with regulator, one Paco Jet. Man, there's a high rent. You're like, uh, I got like a I got like a 20-pound CO two tank, uh yep, and a Paco jet. It's like boom, Paco Jet.
+
+[38:39] You know what I'm saying? Paco jet. I would love to have a Paco Jet. Uh one Sears all, not yet, but soon. One Grindmaster 875 coffee grinder, although I don't know if we're gonna use that, unless they're gonna make a lot of coffee.
+
+[38:53] Coffee course? Coffee time. Oh, yeah, okay. Uh yeah, but like, but that's you know, that I mean, yeah, I mean, you still need to brew the coffee for everything, unless you're gonna do like some sort of weird anyway. Uh two Vitamixes and like a bunch of Weber charcoal grills.
+
+[39:07] Well, yeah, I mean you're in good shape on equipment there, except for like you're pretty low on, well, I guess if you do everything on Weber hot side, I see your point. Anyway, we have a good uh number of volunteers who would be able to assist with prep. However, we personally would want to handle the serving and set up on the actual wedding day. I realize this is a potentially disastrous idea. I almost didn't bother asking, but I have the nagging feeling it might be possible to souve eat a good amount of food beforehand and simply reheat it before and during the ceremony or batch some cocktails the day before or not.
+
+[39:38] No, dude! John, don't do it, brother. Just get married. Yeah, yeah, Jesus. It's not gonna turn out.
+
+[39:50] Tim in the chat room has an answer to saving money. Stop buying Paco Jets. Oh boom, ba ba boom. Look, here's my point, right? Uh do not, do not cook at your wedding.
+
+[40:07] Yeah. Don't. Now, listen, here's the other thing. I'm gonna tell you this right now. Is like, is that it everything, everything is gonna depend on a few decisions that you're about to make in your life, right?
+
+[40:19] Now, I mean, in terms of the wedding, not in terms of life in general. Once you fall into the wedding trap, like you are you are hosed. You are you are completely, you are hosed, right? So, like the question is how far do you fall in? Here's where you're wrong.
+
+[40:32] You're thinking, uh, I've thrown parties for large groups of people, so I can just throw this like I'm throwing a party. But remember, the last time you threw a party where you cooked, the best part about that was you didn't have to interact with your guests. That's why cooks like to throw parties, because they can have lots of people around, but they don't have to interact with them. They can sit around cooking and have marginal interactions, like, hey hey, hey, how's the food? Oh, great, bye, see ya.
+
+[40:55] You know what I mean? And then just get and then just get back to their kitchens and cook, right? I mean, that's like even in an open kitchen situation, when you're sitting there sweating a bunch of pants and flicking around, no one expects more than a five-second response from you at best. It's genius for someone who's a kind of a social moron. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:10] You get to look social and not be. At a wedding, you actually need to be social. I'm sorry. Clearly, he doesn't want to be. Doesn't matter.
+
+[41:18] Doesn't matter. It's not about you. The wedding in. You think the wedding's about you, but it's not, right? So here's the thing it's about your family coming in.
+
+[41:26] Like you're gonna have to spend time going from table to table, even if you don't have it. It's not a look, like, but don't fall the other thing is that you're not even gonna have time to think about food if you fall into all the traps. Like, I gotta get this first of all, you're gonna have some some form of like, you know, man of matron of honor, of people, honor guard, whatever the honor roll, whatever they call the honor roll. Whatever they call these people nowadays who are standing there up on the stage with you. They're gonna have to do a bunch of bull crap, right?
+
+[41:53] Like right before the wedding, there's all these little gotsies that you have to freaking do to get married, like I gotta get this thing, I gotta have this old thing, this borrowed thing, this new thing, this blue thing. All this crud is going to conspire to make it very difficult for you to focus on the fact that you need to crank out a dinner for a hundred and forty people and it needs to be good, right? Because your m your mom or whatever, you know, is flying in, you know, your crazy uncle Ralph from Jersey's flying in, Diamond. Uncle Diamond, he was dead, but by the time I got married, but yeah, I mean, Uncle Diamond can be coming in, you got to do that. Dave's not speaking from experience here at all.
+
+[42:29] This is all theoretical. I had enough problems. I made my cake stand because I was like, I'll be damned if I'm gonna buy a cake stand for my wedding. So I was welding my cake stand like a couple days before the wedding, and also underneath the uh the 67 uh Valiant that we drove to the wedding in, like making sure that it wouldn't break down between the church and and and uh you know my uncle's house where the reception was. But even that was like a little bit of a stretch.
+
+[42:52] Look, if you can pre-batch your cocktails a week in advance, a week in advance, and you have someone you trust who for some reason was not invited to the wedding, and yet you trust them enough to make cocktails for you without pay. Then imagine that. Imagine finding someone that you you would trust to make the cocktails at your wedding that is not invited. Have them do the cliff old fashion. Right.
+
+[43:14] But I'm saying you still need someone to do it for you. Right? Because don't make the cocktails. But if you can make them a week in advance, yeah, I can give you some recipes that are easy to bust out in like large fashion to go around. But also, here's a secret everyone wants champagne at the freaking wedding.
+
+[43:28] You know what I mean? Like just pour a lot of freaking champagne, have some cocktails beforehand. Look, when I got married, like like we we we went super cheap. One of the ways we went super cheap was we did uh brunch instead of uh dinner. Because you can put on a decent brunch a lot cheaper than you could put on a decent dinner.
+
+[43:44] People don't get as hosed, even my friends don't get as hosed, and you just pour like an unbelievable amount of kava, and everybody's everybody's happy. You know, if you have some form of bubbly, pretty much everyone's gonna be happy. And then it's just a question of getting it all uh iced down, and you can just keep eyes on it to make sure it's right. Um, and as to whether or not to do sous vide and finishing, yeah, I mean that's the ultimate way to do it, but don't do it yourself. Don't do it yourself.
+
+[44:08] Don't do anything that requires you to spend a lot of time that you can't finish more than a week before your wedding. That's my assignment. Save money and make a great playlist and maybe skip the DJ if you're that stress. Oh, Jack telling people to skip the DJ, huh? Well, you know, they get expensive.
+
+[44:23] Wedding DJs are expensive. I know this. Because I secretly wish I was one. By the way, John also seconds uh having some sort of transcripts for uh the the cooking issues. I'm being told that we're being ripped off the air, however, I do have something next week for uh trying to get around uh uh cooking detectors, right?
+
+[44:42] So, you know, we all know that we hate uh smoke detectors, but we also hate dying and conflagrations. So we have a question about that, which I'll deal with uh next time, and I guess that's it. I'm not in next week, so uh you'll have Liz. I'll be in New Orleans really drunk. What?
+
+[44:57] Sorry. Oh my god, we're gonna have a week without molecules. A show with no molecules. What will you do? Frowning face cooking issues.
+
+[45:14] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[45:39] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, third generation Cure Masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged ham's bacon and sausage. For more information, visit EdwardsVaham.com. I'm Erica Wyatt, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:24] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every week from on from when? About 12? Time's it now.
+
+[0:45] 1209? 1209 to roughly 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network in Bergerwick Brooklyn! Robert's Pizzeria. As usual, joining the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. I'm good.
+
+[0:58] We got uh Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. How are you doing, Peter? Yet again. Hey, what's up? You become like uh you become like the third co-host.
+
+[1:07] I kind of like that. You know, on the chat room, you should uh write in whether you enjoy having you know Peter here. He called himself um before the show started an abuse sponge. Remember that, Stas? An abuse sponge.
+
+[1:20] And Nastasi and I noted, Nastasi adding the salient point, of course, that uh the problem with a sponge is is that whatever you soak up with a sponge, in this case abuse, gets wrung back out on you onto you again in the sink, but plus that nasty smell from the sponge. Yeah, and it gets progressively worse until the sponge just falls apart. Yeah, and you try to wash it in the dishwasher, you try, and somehow it the stank never fully goes away. Nope. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:46] Stays with the sponge for the rest of the sponge's life. Well, where are you in a sponge's life? Then, first of all, what kind of sponge are you, Peter? Do you have that like abrasive layer on the one side that gets all peeled up and nasty? The fake Scotch Bright.
+
+[1:57] Are you a real Scotch Bright or a chore boy or equivalent? Or are you the kind that you buy in large plastic sacks that are fake? You know, abrasive on one side, yellow on the other. Oh, soft sponge. Whoa.
+
+[2:12] For those of you that don't know Peter's Chinese. So racist. Peter's actually. Peter actually Korean. Anyways.
+
+[2:21] And joined not today in the in the engineering booth. There's no Jackie Molecules in the engineering booth. But we have Liz, which is uh which is very nice. How you doing, Liz? I'm great.
+
+[2:33] I'm I'm glad that we're getting off to a grand start today. Yeah. Well, at least it's a start, right? You know, at least we're not dead yet. Right, Stas?
+
+[2:42] True. Yeah. Never know. Never know. Remember, like my favorite.
+
+[2:45] Uh remember back when people say, like, uh, you know, uh, what kind of dishwasher? Like, yeah, we have a dishwasher. His name is Carmelo. I loved Carmelo. He was my favorite, like one of my favorite human beings at the FCI.
+
+[2:56] His favorite thing to say was you'd say, How you doing, and he'd say, Fine for now. And because, you know, and he would always say, Tomorrow you never know. And he died. Yeah. Awkward silence.
+
+[3:10] Well, I mean, you know? It happens. The good news is not only is it happened to the best of us, it also happens to the worst of us. Call your questions in to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[3:22] Uh big news, Stas. Right. An actual friend of mine, right? Who's like, you know, not in the food business, an architect, in fact. Uh, you know, our kids hang out together.
+
+[3:34] Came over to my house. You ready for this? Mm-hmm. Cooked a meal with a Videtti. Whoa.
+
+[3:40] Yeah. First of all, he bought some weird like knockoff Chinese vegetti. That's the exact one. He came over. He's like, I bought this thing that cuts vegetables into like little strips.
+
+[3:51] I mean, I'm like, you mean uh vegetti? I'm like, I'm familiar. And uh he goes, uh, no, no, no. It's like it's like a peeler that was modified to be vegeti-like. So I was like, look, look, I you know, I have the real there's no use, you don't need to like because it couldn't spiral, it couldn't make a continuous spiral, it could only go the length of the zucchini or the length of the cucumber because it didn't rotate, it had no rotating facility.
+
+[4:17] So you still had a middle. Worse even than that. You basically it's like a peeler. You're just like shunk, shunk, shunk, shuck, shunk. So unless you were like, unless you were a rotational genius, unless you were doing it the way, for instance, that like you use an usuba to cut a vegetable into sheets, you would always end up with a very short noodle.
+
+[4:33] So he and he came over and cooked a dish with my least favorite vegetable, which is squash. Yeah. Like blossoms, great, vegetable crap. He literally came over to my house and cooked noodles with a and he's like, I was like, listen. I was like, listen, I don't have any cheese.
+
+[4:50] So he's like, it the recipe doesn't need cheese. And I was like, no, not only are you gonna give me zucchini noodles, there's not gonna be any like cheese or anything on it. So what was it? So what was it? Well, thankfully, he is not one of these anti-carb nut jobs, and so it was a mixture of zucchini and actual pasta.
+
+[5:06] Oh. Which is actually an interesting idea because the zucchini is soaking up the sauce and the flavors and stuff, and he fried it. So like the like he fried the zucchini. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what the vegetti people say to do.
+
+[5:18] I doubt the vegetables fry stuff. It's like, I just fry it because it's healthier. Like you're eating a healthy squash and it's fried, so it's okay. Because it's squash and it's fried. What?
+
+[5:28] What? Wait, wait, yeah. Do that again, but have it make sense. It's okay if it's fried because it's squash and squash is healthy, no matter how you prepare it, is her reasoning. Squash is solidified water.
+
+[5:41] Yeah with some mildly vegetable taste. It is a sponge. It's not like chicken. Fried chicken. No, it's not like chicken.
+
+[5:50] No, it is most definitely not like chicken. It's it makes no sense. It makes no sense. I don't believe that frying is necessarily unhealthy, but I don't believe that like it's like all these like weird tit for tat things. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:03] Like well, uh I'm gonna go on the treadmill so that I can pound fifty Snickers bars. The hell is that? Doesn't make any sense, right? Eat a Snickers bar if you want a Snickers bar, work out if you want to work out. They're unrelated.
+
+[6:15] Fry your squash if you think it tastes good. Don't fry your squash because somehow that lets you fry something as though fried squash is gonna be as good as fried chicken, which it is not. Although uh it was good in this case. Is anyone there, does anyone in the world think that fried squash is as good as fried chicken? Those of you who eat chicken, anyone?
+
+[6:34] Anyone? No. No, you don't. Like tempura s I mean, like, look, there are like well, okay, look. Like if you if I was gonna deal with zucchini and try to make it as good as possible, right?
+
+[6:45] I would squish the ever loving hell out of it like you would with an eggplant, right? Right, so that you would get rid of all of the sponginess of it uh if you were gonna fry it, and then I would somehow batter it, try to make a nice texture out of the zucchini and then batter it so it didn't become see, I'm not afraid of oil, but who likes like oil sponges? Who likes to eat non crunchy oil sponges? See, like the batter of uh of a properly fried thing absorbs a whole hell of a lot of oil, right? But it is what?
+
+[7:12] It is what? What is it? Crunchy, right? It is crunchy, so it is delicious. You know I like zucchini?
+
+[7:14] Core it. Keep it whole, core it, stuff it with meatball. That sounds good. That's good. That sounds good.
+
+[7:25] That's good. That yeah, well, it's a it's like a non-bitter version of uh stuffed bitter melon. You like bitter melon? No. Why?
+
+[7:35] Peter Peter Kim is making his shrug his shrugged shoulder because she's racist. Like that's his little like it, Peter. Look, I I'm showing solidarity with all sponge-like vegetables out there. Today. Well, do you like bitter melon though?
+
+[7:48] Yeah, I like bitter melon. Do you? I also like zucchini. What? In any in any guys?
+
+[7:53] Oh, nothing. When someone serves you, when someone hands up and is like, I saw you show up at their house and they go, I sauteed zucchini for you. Yeah, that's my side contribution to your dinner party. Yeah. I know you bought meat or something that tastes good.
+
+[8:07] Expensive. Yeah. I know that like someone else brought wine, something that's delicious, and it's gonna make your conversation tolerable. But like, but like you're like, you know, what did I bring? I brought burnt on the outside, yet still soggy and oil-soaked, rancid zucchini product, right?
+
+[8:24] Yeah. How many times out of ten when you get zucchini is that what you get? Always. Always nobody else they don't know what to do. And on that note, we have a caller.
+
+[8:32] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, Nasasha, Jackie, everybody. Um Hey, I was just curious if you'd be willing to share maybe some uh weeknight staples for uh for your listeners. Yeah, I'm a uh a father of two young girls and um, you know, always looking for ideas on quick dinners to knock out that are delicious. I'm familiar with your uh you know, your steak and the garlic bread deal and whatnot, but uh yeah, I'd be curious what what you like to knock out.
+
+[8:59] How old are your girls? Uh I got a a four-year-old and a nine month old, but uh the four-year-old eat eat just about anything. Hey so far. Let me uh well, good. So you're not in a picky situation yet.
+
+[9:10] I mean that most of my choices are actually based on how picky uh, you know, especially my older kid, but did you how many months is the young one? Uh she's nine, so she's starting to eat eat a little bit of uh some solid foods here. Listen, before I go into your question, have you heard the fantastic new news that now they say that everything they told you go online, don't take my word for it. Everything that they told you about not having of not exposing kids to potential allergens is exactly wrong. The new wisdom so for years, including when my kids were little, I wasn't allowed to uh expose them early on to things that might be allergens, even though at the time I was like, this is a load of crap.
+
+[9:50] I was like, not only is this a load of crap, intuitively it is a load of crap. Intuitively you want to expose the kids to uh a bunch of everything such that they uh can kind of hack it as we go on. It's just this is the you know, this is the uh, you know, we killed almost everyone on this continent with our with our blankets full of like disease kind of thing. That like constant exposure to low levels of things from a young age seems to make you more invulnerable to them later, right? So right.
+
+[10:19] So now they've come out and said that yes, in fact, with the exception of honey, uh which you know, you could get botulism from, uh, you know, feed up feed them everything from an even earlier age than we thought before. Uh, you know, we we hate to be the ones here that said we always freaking thought that. The sad thing is is that I couldn't act on it when I had kids because if I was, you know, you're not a doctor. What do you know? You know what I mean?
+
+[10:43] And then if you're wrong and your kids end up with some hardcore allergy, they're gonna be like, well, it's because dad thought he knew best and didn't feed him freaking peanut butter like you're supposed to. But now they're like, in fact, the allergies are caused by this kind of stuff. Have you been reading this? I have not, but uh, yeah, no, it makes sense though. Yeah, look into it.
+
+[10:59] Again, like uh do not mistake cooking issues for medical advice. But look it up. You know what I mean? Uh uh, it's uh a fantastic new thing because I have a uh a new niece in the family, and uh yeah, we're all remarking on on that. In fact, last night at dinner.
+
+[11:12] So, uh so apparently you're a meat eater. Uh yeah, I do have a circulator. Do you have a rice cooker? I do, I do. Yeah.
+
+[11:22] So like I use I do a lot of stuff uh with the rice cooker just because it it holds things so well. So, you know, you can bust out at any point, like right when you get home, you can throw uh like any sort of thing that cooks in in the rice cook. In fact, I'm kind of lying. I don't really tend to cook finished dishes in the rice cooker. I tend to have um I have a bunch of Korean stone bowls, the toll soats, and like they're super fast to bust stuff out on.
+
+[11:49] Problem is they're not kid friendly, you know what I mean? So usually what I'll do is I'll just have like a boatload of rice, and then I'll take whatever I have in the fridge left over from the last couple of days, I'll hack that stuff up and uh throw it into the stone bowl with like a quickly improvised sauce because I always keep in my pantry, like depending on what kind of moods I'm in, cans of coconut milk, cans of tomato paste, like you know, a bunch of stuff that I can just bust out sauces quickly, cracking egg into it with a toll soap, but it requires you buying toll soats, which is probably not what you want to do. And again, your kids can't really have that. I don't know. Stas, what do you like for quick?
+
+[12:22] Pasta. Yeah, Stas is a pasta queen. It's not like pasta pasta pasta queen. Yeah. But the kids get sick of pasta after a while.
+
+[12:28] I wouldn't know. Because you never get sick of it? Well, because I don't have kids and I don't get sick of it. You never get sick of pasta? No.
+
+[12:35] Ever. No. Never. Because there's lots of ways you can do it. Back before back before I had kids, and even when I had kids, one kid, when I was used to live uh on 38th Street and my pasta machine was out, I was in a routine where twice a week I would make pasta.
+
+[12:51] I mean like make it. Uh and I, you know, I would ignore all the relaxing steps when you were rolling it out, and so I could I could make pasta by the time the water was boiling. That was fun. Because it gives me a sense of accomplishment and it's like a fresh pasta thing, but it can be done in under in under 45 minutes. I mean the the thing is honestly now it's like uh by the time I'm done working and you know my wife is home, I really only have 15 to 20 minutes to cook dinner.
+
+[13:21] I mean, like, you know, Rachel Ray with her 30 minute meals, I don't know where she has the luxury of such time. Uh you know, it's like 15 to 20 is about the limit. So like that's why a lot of pre cooking is is really good. We got no in a into habit um uh, you know, a couple of months ago, we sadly fell out of it, where like on a Saturday or a Sunday, uh we'd ro or you know, we'd roast two chickens instead of one, right? Because it doesn't take any more energy to roast two chickens than one.
+
+[13:49] And then um, you know, we would do the old school, rip apart the carcass, make maybe you know, maybe make a broth, do some chicken salads, do some stuff like that. Uh and now even on Sundays, like if I'm, you know, up in Connecticut, I'll bust out the tandoor and I'll always make extra of everything and then use the leftovers like a really good leftover. Uh like, oh, I know I said it before on the radio show, but seriously, like show up at home, throw the potatoes in the oven. Baked potato bars so freaking delicious. So delicious.
+
+[14:17] And we'd all for everyone has forgotten how delicious the baked potato bar is. I had that last night. You did? I love it. You didn't tell me that.
+
+[14:24] How was it? Mine, good. You know what I bought a couple weeks ago? What? Okay, you ready for it?
+
+[14:29] Bakos. I went out and bought the I went full 70s and got bacos. Dax what are bakos? Bake bacon bits. Bacon bits.
+
+[14:36] Bakos, texturized vegetable protein in in the form of uh bacon bitlets. And it brought back some good memories. Dax, who did not grow up on them thought they were crap, thought they were garbage. I enjoyed them. Anyway, so baked potato bar is good.
+
+[14:48] And if you do make the baked potato bar, save a couple of extra because if you chip those, they fry fantastically very quickly later without any pre prep, even after they've been, especially after they've been refrigerated. Is any of this helpful? Yep. Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thank you.
+
+[15:02] Alright, well, uh, let us know if you come up with anything good. Send it on in uh, you know, to the questions. We'll talk about it on air, etc. etc. Call back, tell us your experience.
+
+[15:09] And remember, now you can feed your kids everything. Yay! Okay. Uh yeah, you know, like seriously, that's like a big one for me. Anyway, all right, thanks a lot.
+
+[15:17] Okay. Uh see. I had some unanswered questions. What? What?
+
+[15:21] I just like looking at Peter. Oh, well, why what is Peter doing with his face? Oh, just mocking me. Well, yes. Um, okay.
+
+[15:30] So I had some questions that went unanswered last week, and my phone is not wanting me to see what they are. Uh okay. I just moved into a new apartment. A decent, if a little shabby, pre war building. Aren't they all, right?
+
+[15:46] Aren't they all pre like sh you're are you not in a pre-war building anymore, does? No, nope. 70s. 70s. So does 70s buildings have like all the roaches and stuff that are pre-war?
+
+[15:55] No. No. No? What about the how what floor are you on? Six.
+
+[15:59] So it's too high for the giant water bugs. I guess so, yeah. You never see the giant water bugs that high unless I guess it's like a really old building. What about you, Peter? Do you get the giant water bugs?
+
+[16:08] You're in a shabby pre-war building. You just get the mini roaches? Yeah, I get roaches. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[16:15] Yeah. Oh, Liz, while I'm talking about this, is it possible to get Sam Edwards on the phone? Let me work on it. Because I have a question that he can answer. See whether he can.
+
+[16:26] I'm not saying because I didn't call I didn't know ahead of time that he was gonna be the sponsor, but since Sam Edwards is sponsoring the show, and I have a question on country hams, if he wants to spend a couple of minutes on the phone with us towards the end of the program, we could uh, you know. Let me see what I can do. All right. All right. Uh just moved into a shabby pre-war building in Brooklyn.
+
+[16:46] The kitchen is new and that's nice, but there's one major drawback. As with most New York City apartments, there is no hood over the stove. And every time I try to um roast a chicken or sear a steak, um oh my god, my phone when I was trying to move it, thought I wanted to define the word steak. I know what a steak is, iPhone. Jerk.
+
+[17:05] Um every time I try to roast a chicken or sear a steak, the hard wired smoke detectors go off. Uh I thought maybe I could recalibrate them, but no dice. I've opened windows, employed fans, but nothing I seem to do prevents the problems. Do you have any advice short of moving? This is driving me effing nuts.
+
+[17:23] Uh thanks, uh Matt Bamberry. Okay. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a big big problem. Like the laws are that we have to have uh smoke detectors, but the problem is is that smoke detectors l are not designed with kitchens in mind. And they install them over the stove.
+
+[17:39] Well, there's I mean, some people's apartments, like you got your stove, you got your bed. You know what I mean? It's like there's no logical kind of separation. Uh, and it's true that some places, even with the windows wide open and like a fan in them, which I recommend, they're still gonna go off. Now, the pr you know, look, there's a couple of ways around this.
+
+[18:01] You know, you can uh certain manufacturers of uh cooking detectors, as you know I like to call them, uh, have a uh a button on it called a hush button, right? And a lot of them do, and yours might, and you might not know about it. So the thing that says uh the the test button on it, right? So it some manufacturers, and you can look up online, you can look up yours. I know like I think uh the brand Kitty, you know, makes some that do this, where if you press the button once, right, just press it, it will beep, it'll go beep once at you, and for the next eight to ten minutes, depending on the detector, it is not gonna go off, right?
+
+[18:44] Based on what you're on what you're doing, unless it has what they call, and I'm gonna put this in air quotes that you can't see because you can't see me, but uh excessive smoke. So basically it goes from being a a cooking detector to a yo, this is really messed up detector. Now, the problem is I many times my life would set set this off. And let me just go in a little bit of a rant here for a second, because as I was looking this crap up, uh I was getting so angry about it. The cooking people, people who manufacture these cooking detectors and the and the idiots who talk about them online, assume that the only time you make smoke is when you're doing something improper in the kitchen.
+
+[19:25] False. False. There are many cooking techniques that, when done properly, create boatloads of smoke. Do you know what I'm saying? Have they been to a traditional kitchen?
+
+[19:36] Do they only eat bull crap propo like made in like 50s style with no freaking crust, no freaking texture, no freaking Zaz, no freaking life. It is not only when you're making a mistake in the kitchen that you create smoke. And this is the error that causes people to create cooking detectors, because people don't cook. People are bad, right? At cooking.
+
+[19:58] Dave, I've got two ideas. What? So one is this is a solution I employ at my place. Right. I I have a small Weber gas grill that I got that I use if I need to do some really heavy, like smoky stuff.
+
+[20:09] And that I can put right by the window and have the fan suck the air right out. That's one thing. You don't put it outside your window, do you? No, I don't put it outside the window. But I I set up a table right in front of the window with you know I have that big window fan.
+
+[20:21] Right. And then I'll set up a cross uh, you know, a cross breeze thing going from the other side of the apartment, and then grill right in front of the fan, and the smoke goes right out. It's a good also a good point, is that you have to figure out what the um air patterns are in your apartment. So, like my current my current apartment, the air pattern come unfortunately, the the natural direction is it to come into the kitchen. But my old apartment, the natural direction was to go out of the kitchen.
+
+[20:46] So that that's one of the things to do. I'm lucky that I have my kitchen sits in between two windows on opposite ends of the apartment. So when I have the fan going on one side, then I usually don't have problems with that. But it's generally neutral. Generally there's no flow.
+
+[21:00] It'll flow through the smoke will be. Which is the same. The smoke will come out of my oven or whatever and go right up there. Yeah, so you're like we have to test which way the the air wants to break, you know, which way your cross ventilation works. So that you know, that's definitely uh one thing.
+
+[21:11] Here's something I don't recommend doing, although it's all over the internet, is uh plastic bag rubber bands or a shower cap over your uh smoke detector while you're cooking because the part it's it's measuring particulates, right? So you can put that over it and the particulates can't get to it, but you have to seal pretty well for it for it to work. And uh a good number of people have had success with that, but the problem is is that now you're literally shutting down your detector so that when you go to sleep, if something's going on, you have a uh a problem. But back to our other things. Some and yours might already have it, have this thing where you can tell the smoke detector, I'm cooking, don't go off for like only eight minutes.
+
+[21:50] I don't know who can only cook for eight minutes. But that's reasonable. Most of the time when the smoke's happening, it's like high intensity, short duration stuff, right? Um, Barbara Kafka in her book Roasting, right, which started the kind of super high temperature roasting kind of phenomenon in people's houses, how the hell are you not gonna have smoke when you're busting your oven up at 450, 500? How you gonna do it?
+
+[22:10] No matter how you cook, jerks. Anyway, the other thing is that maybe you can if your smoke detector doesn't have that, maybe you can replace a smoke detector with one that does. Um you know, but I I'm hesitant to tell you anything that's gonna actually shoot your smoke detector in the head permanently, right? I mean, obviously, you know, like I have removed my smoke detectors and uh forgotten to put them back in, like and I've unwired hardwired ones, but it's not really advisable. It's not good.
+
+[22:38] Don't do it. You know what I mean? Get one that has this um this cooking detect uh undo. You know what's messed up, Stas? I was gonna recommend buying a nest, you know, the nest ones, nest Protect, because they're controlled from your phone.
+
+[22:50] But what's weird is is from what I can tell, currently, the way the firmware works, when you press uh it it'll go off, and then you press don't, and it will uh it will then stop. But there's no way to say don't go off, I am doing something. You know what I mean? Like antivirus. Like when you have an antivirus, it's like turn off your antivirus for 15 minutes because I'm installing a program.
+
+[23:14] Like apparently Nest hasn't figured this out yet. And even worse on the Nest is that if you have multiple nests and they and they're interwired, which all hardwired smoke detectors are supposed to be interwired now. So the reason being that if a smoke detector goes off in your kitchen, and because clearly you live in some sort of like four-story suburban mansion, right? You're in your room, you're not gonna hear it at night. They want your smoke detector in your room to go off as well.
+
+[23:37] So they're all interwired now. That's how the codes are. Um but so if your nest goes off in the kitchen, it'll also go off in your bedroom, which is apparently irritating. Whatever. But Nest is something that could do that.
+
+[23:48] Like if Nest like thought about cooks a little more, they could have a an I'm you know, I'm cooking now, shut up for 15 minutes, because you don't need a smoke detector when you're awake. Anyway. So do you think we uh gave enough ideas on what to do with this? Yeah? All right.
+
+[24:04] We do have a caller. Oh, all right, caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, this is uh Matt from Mystic Connecticut. Oh hey, Mystic Connecticut, where Mystic are you? Uh I am on the so you know technically the Stonington side of the river.
+
+[24:17] I do. Which is uh, you know, the other side of the drawbridge. Yeah. Yeah. The other side of the Mystic Bascule Bridge.
+
+[24:25] Say again? The other side of the Mystic Bascule Bridge, yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah.
+
+[24:31] Uh so I had a question about haggis. Ooh, nice. Because uh my buddy and I throw a big burntine party every year, and we're coming up on it, and typically what we do is we just steam the haggis as sort of like a giant ball of uh loose form sausage in a big colander. Right. But for presentation purposes this year, I bought a beef bung and I want to do it in the beef bung so that we get the whole you know cutting cutting of the haggis open.
+
+[25:00] And so I'm wondering if there's enough moisture, like is the bung permeable? And if I steam it, is it gonna work in the bung, or should I pre-cook it, you think, and then stuff it? Huh, you know, it's interesting. Uh I've never I've used pig stomachs before and stuffed them, not actually strangely for uh haggis, uh, but um, because I've only done the haggis like um cloth bound actually. But I think it should work.
+
+[25:29] I mean, is it how big is a beef bung? Uh I mean, you know, it's it's typically I think the type of thing they use for like a mortadella, so it can hold uh it can hold a fair amount. And the haggis we make is huge. You know, I'm talking like, you know, like something you'd strain your pasta with. That's we typically just like pack it in there and then steam it covered in foil so that it, you know, I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna say it's gonna work.
+
+[25:51] You think so? Just straighten the bunk? I uh I think it's gonna work. I definitely hey Liz, is is the chat room working right now? It is working.
+
+[25:59] Is anyone I mean, like there's gotta be a charcuterie expert out there who has who has done this before. We're waiting. We're we're waiting for our expert to tap in. Yeah. Look, uh look, I look, I'm gonna go ahead and say that that's gonna work.
+
+[26:13] Okay. You know what I mean? All right. Um, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
+
+[26:18] I'm gonna go ahead and say it's gonna work. Yeah, please let us know how it works. Uh as anyone who is like uh listened long enough knows, Haggis is is deserving of so much respect. It's so freaking delicious. It's just missold.
+
+[26:34] I mean how exactly right. Yeah, it's we love it. We may everyone uh everyone gets freaked out about it every year, and then uh and then they have it and they say this is delicious. Yeah, yeah. I mean there's a there's things like that, like people have less revulsion over scrapple, although some people don't like scrapple either.
+
+[26:50] Scrapple mean different obviously, also like incredibly delicious. And yeah, I know they're not the same or even really simple, but like I mean, like uh haggis is delicious. What kind of oats do you use? Uh we use like the quick cutting uh the quick cooking steel cut, if that makes sense. Oh, I've never had that.
+
+[27:07] Are they still made? Are they come in that tin? Uh no, so it's like a Bob's red mill thing. Huh. Oh, Bob's red mill, yeah.
+
+[27:15] Yeah, they have ones that are like supposedly quick cooking, and so we just do that and uh and it's always worked out great. Do you notice do you notice the difference between using those and like the standard like Scottish steel cut guys? Uh I I don't think we've ever used like the fully traditional ones. I think we've only ever used the quick cutting one, but uh but they you know like quick cooking in this uh scenario means like I think twenty minutes if you were making it on the stove top or something. So right.
+
+[27:37] So it's not like uh it's not like the the quick cook uh quick cooking like the flake stuff is like a five minute or less property. Right, yeah. No, it's not like it's not they're not blown out at all. They're still like this big uh little cups, you know. So man, I love haggis.
+
+[27:50] What day is it? Yeah. Uh it is uh so not this Saturday, but next Saturday. So if you want if you're in Mystic, come on by. I wish I'm gonna like I'm uh I'm gonna be up there uh this weekend, but not uh not the weekend after.
+
+[28:03] Uh man, I love haggis. Anyway, enjoy your haggis and let us know how it comes out. I will do it. Thanks. Alright, thank you.
+
+[28:10] Alright, let's take a break and be back with more cooking issues. The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward's Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats.
+
+[29:05] Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit Edwards VA Ham.com. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. For some reason, Nastasia and Peter are rearranging the studio as you speak.
+
+[29:30] So if you hear like all kind of chairs like wheedling around, Stas, for how many years have you sat next to me and now you decided I'm no longer good to sit next to you? It's just that here it's like it's all wires of the springs. Stassius wants to give me the more uncomfortable chair. That makes sense. This question in.
+
+[29:47] Um I was recently lucky enough to have the electric drop-in combo unit, meaning a stove, uh, fail on me, and with the help of my awesome dad, gas lines were run, holes cut, counters altered, and I am now the owner of a sturdy and simple gas range. Well, congratulations to you. I hate resistance uh fed old uh like gas uh electric ranges. You ever used one of those with a squirrely? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:12] Is that what you had in California? No. You might want to talk to the mic stuff. It's not your first time at the rodeo. No.
+
+[30:17] You never used one? Yes, not in California. When did you have one? Like in Airbnb's. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[30:21] What about you, Peter? Uh I grew up with that. Yeah. For real? Yeah.
+
+[30:25] Champagne Urbana was the land of electric. Yeah. Yeah. The worst is when like stuff gets burned onto it, you know. You can't really get it off.
+
+[30:32] When I was a kid, we had one when I lived in New Jersey, and uh I leaned on it with my winter coat and like melted my winter coat into it. Ugh. And then after like when you're cooking something, you can't have it stop cooking. No. I mean, you turn it off and it's like, I'm gonna keep cooking this for a few more minutes.
+
+[30:49] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, there it goes. It's especially bad for stuff like uh cooking sugar. Like, oh my god, like making like candies.
+
+[30:56] Yeah. Because you're like, hey, it's per oh no. Oh. You know what I mean? I guess it's arguably better for keeping a low simmer though.
+
+[31:06] Who would no? No. Well, maybe. I mean, because it can't it can't flame out at super low temperatures, you mean? Yeah.
+
+[31:13] I don't know. I just hate the hell out of it. And you know what else I used to hate? I used to hate the way pots and pans, and this is going back to when I was like eleven. We moved when I was like twelve.
+
+[31:22] But I even now I remember, and I've used them since. The way pots feel on them is just I don't like it. Like pots don't slide right on them, they have that rapid tappy, and like they're like, I just don't like it. Yeah, they're horrible. Yeah.
+
+[31:35] All around. All around bad. Just bad. Uh I'm the owner of a sturdy and simple gas range. Okay.
+
+[31:41] After decades using the same thinned bottom sauce pots and thinned bottom stock pot, I'm getting more scorching than I'm used to. So there's an interesting thing. It is more even over the uh space of it because the burner itself is physically larger. Yeah. Right?
+
+[31:56] Right. Right. Okay. So there's a theoretical advantage. Maybe that's why James Beard liked them.
+
+[32:00] Maybe James Beard had thin, thin, crappy pots, and so he was getting scorching. And maybe if James Beard had replaced his pots with like mod like a more modern pot or a thicker pot, maybe he would have not liked electric stoves. Yeah. Because it's incomprehensible to me why he liked electric stoves. Yeah.
+
+[32:15] That's the only advantage I could think of. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right? Uh I've tried backing off the heat, and I will certainly keep practicing.
+
+[32:25] But I was wondering if there was any advice you would share on sauce pots, stockpots, etc. Imagine finding yourself with a new gas range and wondering what would uh uh be the best use for it. I love it technical. Of course, my cast iron is more fun with gas down at it. Thanks, Nathan.
+
+[32:39] Okay. Uh so here's here's the thing. Uh super thin bottom pots with a concentrated gas flame are going to have problems. Uh they're f fine, and don't let anyone tell you any differently, they're fine for boiling stuff, right? So you're always gonna need to have a pot that you can uh boil water for uh pasta in or or you know um anything, anything of of that nature.
+
+[33:10] But you're gonna you're gonna want to go invest in a thick bottomed uh your saucepan should have a a thick bottom, and anything if you're gonna brown or like make uh a roux or um sweat out vegetables, you're gonna want something thicker that uh spreads the uh heat out uh more more evenly that's just my my feeling is that you're not gonna be uh happy uh with uh the thin bottom stuff on um on your range and what do you what do you guys think I'm thinking that you should play that song from Spinal Tap right now the big bottom fat fat bottom isn't that uh that's Queen. Oh it's Queen. Oh big bottoms My Girls bottom that's from Spine that's what I'm looking up is on Spinal T this is Spinal Tap they have that song. Anyway, whatever. So you you consider your pots to be female that's what you're telling me.
+
+[34:07] It's just interesting facts about Peter. Like for me, like pots and pans are one of the few gender neutral kind of like pieces of equipment that I can think of. What do you what gender do you think your pots and pans have Sas Yeah pots are probably female pans male. Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[34:24] Really why long handles on the pans? This is an odd conversation. So I I so I would I would go ahead and say you're gonna want to get uh you don't need a lot keep your thin stuff for um for like I say for boiling. Also I'm gonna say you can get pretty cheaply. Depends on your feeling about them, right?
+
+[34:46] But the they're relatively thick and they work relatively well. Uh just aluminum pots and they're pretty cheap. Uh they work really well as long as you don't mind uh cooking it in aluminum. I know some people don't like cooking in aluminum. And the truth of the matter is that those pots do get pitted after a long time, especially if you use them in the dishwasher because they get kind of uh the the the dishwashing surgeon kind of eats them out.
+
+[35:12] But I have a couple of those because they're cheap. I have a couple because I've been collecting them a long time. Really good. Um stock pots, some thin ones that I use for for other things. But if you have a thin potum like like two quart sau like saucepan, like I would take that into the into the garage or something and use it to melt wax for like you know, kids' candle projects or something like that, because that's what that's gonna be good for.
+
+[35:36] I wouldn't I you it's just you're gonna like it so much more once you get a real uh thing. And you don't have to do it all at once. You can get them piece by piece or find them in thrift shops or or um you know, when people move away. I I like I I've I no longer look, I got married a long time ago. When I got married, we got our set of all clad.
+
+[35:56] I I can't imagine going out and like forking over the money to buy a full set of pans. You guys? No. No, right? Anyway.
+
+[36:05] I mean, I guess you can you could also hack things by putting something underneath the thin bottom pan, right? Well, that's the thing. But a flame tamer, then you're back into the same situation you were back with an oven. You don't have your re you don't have your reaction rate. So, like a way to make the thin uh bottom pan um act more like you used to like it used to act is to just put a slug of metal underneath your uh burner and then it'll ride up and down, up and down, it'll act ex almost exactly like your your your uh electric range did, but then you don't have the what you want, which is the off on that uh an electric range has it makes it so so awesome.
+
+[36:39] Right? No. Okay. Uh we got a question in uh from uh Joan. If it is all possible, can you ask Dave the following question?
+
+[36:49] Do you ever use a freezing step for your French fry recipe? Does it still yield the same results? Uh and do you alter your processing when freezing? Yes, uh, I like freezing french fries. Freezing French fries can help.
+
+[36:59] Uh what freezing does is it's an additional dehydration stage. So if your French fries were suffering from holocore, meaning that you didn't have the internal texture of the French fry uh be potato anymore, but just hollow and crust, then freezing will accentuate holocore. If you were not getting hollow core when you were uh doing it, um, then freezing in general will make the uh texture of the X the outside of the fry uh better, right? And it'll also allow you to fry it harder before the potato kind of overcooks because you should fraud uh you should fry directly from frozen. So frying from frozen and freezing in general is it can be extremely advantageous so long as you don't get hollow core.
+
+[37:47] Now, if you find that you're getting hollow core, also you can keep fries indefinitely once they're frozen, which is nice. Just make sure that you uh let them freeze almost like IQF, like individual, like uh on a pan, then combine them into portions in bags and put them in your freezer. Uh if you find after you're done that you're getting too much holocore on your French fry after the freeze step, then what I would do is if you have a dry step, so it's you're gonna do if you do enzyme, you'll do enzyme. If you don't, you don't. Uh if you're doing the modernist thing, you're gonna hit it with a uh uh ultrasonic uh, you know, uh, what's it called?
+
+[38:21] Cleaner, right? Or not. Uh then you're gonna do your initial blanch out step where you're you're cooking the potato and putting salt into the potato by boiling or boiling and steaming. I'm just going through it. I'm just saying.
+
+[38:35] No, you're not, you're just trying to be mean. Anyway, then you then uh you're gonna go through uh uh optionally a drying step, right? And this is where this is where you really get to play with it, right? So it's the length of the boil step and then the length of the dry step is where you're doing a lot of the moisture control, and it's all about the moisture control where you're trying to balance the internal texture of the fry with the external temperature of uh texture of the fry. Then your first fry, now you're gonna do your uh your free step or not.
+
+[39:03] And I think freezing is almost always beneficial. So, like if it if you get holocore, just decrease your uh just decrease your dry time if you're using it. You conversely, if the texture of the outside of the fry is uh not what you want it to be, and you're not getting holocore yet, then increase your dry time in between your um in between your bl blanch and your fry. I hope that helps without you having to go and sift through the 4,000 words of the cooking issues. By the way, I'm not saying we're gonna do this, but I was talking to Jackie Molecules last week, who's by the way, in New Orleans for his birthday.
+
+[39:38] Hopefully he's you know not passed out drunk on the street somewhere. I don't think he is, because it's kind of early in the day, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um considering putting the blog on uh like having it admined by the good folks here at Hit Heritage Radio and perhaps making it semi live again.
+
+[39:59] What do you think, Staz? Yes. You like that? I really like it. Semi semi live.
+
+[40:04] Semi live. But like that, like you know, we'll see. We'll see. I don't know. See what the people uh in the chat room whether they want it to ever go live again.
+
+[40:10] New new things, new information, new cooking issues. Anyway, um I hope that helps. Uh but but do we do we get anything for uh do we get anything for uh from uh Sam or no Liz? No, i I think they knew that we were trying to get a hold of them, and it's a totally automated service, so I I left a very desperate message, but we we have not heard from him. Um but but on the bright side we do have a caller.
+
+[40:37] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh Nastasha and Peter. Um I'm Justin from Baltimore. How are you doing? Um I was wondering how to cryo fry a scallop.
+
+[40:49] Ooh, so wait, so when you say cryo fry, you mean freeze, freeze it and then fry it so you don't go over the uh so you don't overcook it? Exactly. So you can get the nice crisp on the outside, but have it still nice and almost like raw in the middle or not very cooked. Right. So I think the modernist cuisine guys, when they're doing that uh for um things like burgers and I think for burgers and that kind of stuff, they might use LN, but for duck, I think that they use dry ice.
+
+[41:19] Is that true? I can't remember. I can't remember. But I mean obviously one way to try it is to just throw the sucker like the problem is like Ln, right, is gonna freeze the whole thing all the way around. And then if you freeze it that way, you're not going to be it's not gonna be flat when you try to put it on a pan to to uh to rent unless you're gonna deep fry it.
+
+[41:43] You're not gonna deep fry it, are you? No, no. Yeah, you're just gonna try to get a crust on the surface, right? So then the question is how do you get it like you you almost want to take a nonstick surface like a like uh a Teflon pan, right? And then like rest the Teflon pan in in LN, right?
+
+[42:01] And then and then put the scallop on the pan until the that surface of it kind of freezes. And then it should freeze and release from the pan. I'm assuming the te I've put Teflon on liquid nitrogen many, many times, and I've never had a problem. I don't know if you're going to get problems with it. Um and of course the scallop itself should release even from regular steel after after a while.
+
+[42:27] Um so you could try it with regular steel. I don't know if you're going to get delamination problems uh over over time or if you happen to be one of those people that's negative against Teflon. Um But anyway, uh that that's how that's how I would do it. You could possibly get it done even with dry ice if you don't have uh access to uh liquid nitrogen, but you're gonna want to freeze it against a flat surface. Ideally two flat surfaces at once, so you do it.
+
+[42:52] But I will I will say this also is that I've known uh many people who even if they don't have like uh like uh access to you know fancy stuff, they will do things like uh sear cuts of meat uh so like let's say you buy uh frozen meats, like like a lot of the heritage stuff comes comes frozen, right? Because that's the way they can keep it all all year. So you a lot of people sear it directly from frozen so that you could sear the outside uh without overdoing the inside. And um obviously the modernist guys and uh I think Chef Steps and Chris and all those guys uh are advocates of this technique, but I encourage you to to do a side-by-side taste test because the stuff tastes different, right? So it's not just that there's less drip loss and all this.
+
+[43:36] Now a scallop it's a different kind of a situation because you're trying to maintain it raw on the inside and get a sear uh on on the outside. I'm not saying you could use a cereizol for that too. But anyway, but my point being that that's what you're trying to do. So like, you know, um, so I think it's a useful thing to to to do there, but I would just encourage you to do a side-by-side taste test because on things like burgers, I actually prefer it standard seared to cryo seared in the tests that I've run. Now it's only been limited tests.
+
+[43:59] I've only done it like maybe like five to ten times as a test. But like I understand the advantages that they say you get from it. I just happen to prefer the taste of it when it's done um standard searing. So does you should do some side-by-side taste tests. Great.
+
+[44:17] Thank you. All right, no problem. Um what do you say? We should end in a minute. All right, okay.
+
+[44:22] Uh quickly, uh AD writes in Does Dave know if anyone is planning to release a homogenizer uh like Booker and Dax or anyone else in the food world. And by that I mean I assume you mean rotor stator homogenizer. No immediate plans. The problem is that the market I don't think is so big on it. Uh Philip Preston is selling uh uh the IKA makes a uh handheld homogenizer, like small one.
+
+[44:43] I think they're selling it. I'm not opposed to us doing it, it's just we got like a bunch of other projects on our plate uh before that, right, Stuzz? Yeah. Yeah. We've got to get that stuff done before we get that done.
+
+[44:53] Now, listen, um, we don't have a lot of time left. I'm gonna see if next week we can get uh Sam Edwards to call in to answer the question on ham because we have a question about hanging hams for uh equalization and pest control. And uh I know uh and that question is in from uh Patrick, and I know uh that Sam has a lot of good information on pest control in hams, and we're talking about mites, mites, beetles, and rodents. The stuff and I know Stas doesn't want to get into that now because we don't have a lot of time and Stas doesn't like talking about mites, beetles, and rodents. But uh we'll try to get Sam Edwards maybe for next week.
+
+[45:29] If not, I'll just answer the question myself. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[46:01] You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Brooklyn Kitchen, a mom and pop operation since 2006. They provide the tools that shape our food culture. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklyn Kitchen.com. I'm Linda Palacio, host of A Taste of the Pass. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from an empties Roberta Pizzeria. What the heck happened here, Stas? Jack?
+
+[0:41] It was uh it was their holiday party. So I came in here this morning and I saw these guys have been cleaning everything up. Nothing but um Papa John's and Domino's boxes. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's right.
+
+[0:53] Papa John's and Domino's. Yeah kind of irony. So the uh so you think it's like irony? You think they're just drinking PBRs? They make great pizza.
+
+[1:02] I also sell bottles of champagne, Stas. So what do you hear, Stas? No. No? God no.
+
+[1:09] I hate coming here. You know I love I love Robertas, but I don't I don't do their holiday parties. I uh it's just are you guys invited? Yeah, just a danger zone. Yeah, I believe.
+
+[1:18] Yeah. Now I have slipping to the danger zone in my head. It smells like a nasty bar though. Everywhere out there. What do you mean it smells like old cake beer?
+
+[1:27] Yeah. Yeah. Like we walk through. It's like they drank everywhere. Stas has her I hated college face on.
+
+[1:35] Yeah, Stas, uh aside from biscuits and anything, Stas is the like only person I know who didn't enjoy college. Yeah. Uh no offense to uh, you know, Leland Stanford Junior University. Or offense. Junior, right?
+
+[1:49] Or or offense. Let them take it. Yeah. Uh so anyway. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:57] And Jack Jackie Molecules over there, fresh back from New Orleans. How was New Orleans? Oh, it was so good. Did you have anything good to eat? I did.
+
+[1:59] I had a lot of good things to eat. Uh fried alligator for the first time at Cochon. Oh, yeah. Cushal, I'm sure does it well. It doesn't just taste like fry.
+
+[2:12] Cush is a good restaurant. I like that place. Yeah, a lot of boudin. Um everywhere. Uh you know, and then some like classic New Orleans places.
+
+[2:20] I did the turtle soup at a place called Upper Line. You know, it says they do it like it would have been done a hundred years ago. Yeah, did it did you feel that way? It was clovey. Yeah, it was really clovey.
+
+[2:30] Didn't have the sherry at the end? Yeah, in the sherry, yeah, it did. It's all about the sherry at the end, Jack. No share at the end, no love. No, it was good.
+
+[2:37] Yeah. You ever read the old uh documents on turtle soup and the different kinds of fat and the callop, what is it, calapash and calipea. Someone out there will be a uh turtle soup uh expert. I think may most people now just like, you know. I mean, I don't d were they kill uh they killed turtles in the back or they buy the canned turtle meat or what?
+
+[2:54] I'm guessing it's canned turtle meat. Yeah. I'm guessing. I don't know. There's well, if you look up uh what's the name of that book?
+
+[3:00] What's it called? It's out of my head. Herders is the place uh in Minnesota, and the guy it's called I think the Bull. Oh yeah, the bull. It's not bull moose, it's like but the bull something cookbook.
+
+[3:11] He has a bunch of them, and he's just this crazy, crazy like like a lot of weird sexism in it, a lot of weird stuff, a lot of like historical fallacies, but one of my favorite parts is where he tells you how to chop the head off of a turtle, uh, Jack. There are two different ways. Would you like to know the two different ways to chop the head off of a turtle? Yes, please. Well, the first way, 'cause remember, like a lot of times he's dealing with like a snapping turtle, right?
+
+[3:37] So uh you stick a stick out and they bite on the stick, and as soon as they bite on the stick, whoa bang, right? Chop the head off. That makes sense, right? Yeah. So what do you think the second way is?
+
+[3:47] Oh man, I don't know. Guess I I can't. Guess I'm not bite. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. No.
+
+[3:54] No. Stick its finger in the tail hole up near the butt area, and then the head pops out because it's like, oh hey, hello, and then bang, you chop the head off. Wow. Yeah. Tough way to go.
+
+[4:07] Yeah, it's a real tough way to go. Someone get someone gooses you, your head pops out of your shell and gets chopped off. You don't even have time to think about it, you know? No. It's not right.
+
+[4:16] It's not right. The thing is, is like the stick thing, right? It's kind of like why fishing is so is so well, old school fishing on a line is so interesting because you only get to kill the thing if it tries to kill something else. You know what I mean? Like only through the fish's own aggression does it become caught and eaten, right?
+
+[4:37] Which is why it seems kind of fitting, you know? And same with the turtle going after the stick. Turtle's like, hey, crap on you, stick, and then you have a cleaver, and you're like, no, crap on you, Mr. Turtle. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:47] Like that's uh that just seems, you know, poking your finger up its butt. I guess the turtle ends up dead either way. Uh but uh so sad news that happened uh was it last week? It was a one week ago. One week?
+
+[5:00] Yes. Yeah, uh about a week ago. About a week ago, we were um no one hurt as far as I know, which is good, but uh Sam Sam Edwards, S. Wells Edwards uh and son, we were trying to get them on the phone actually to answer someone's ham curing uh question, and didn't know at the time that they were like at that moment having a large fire. You do you have you heard anything about that, Jack?
+
+[5:21] Yeah, I mean, um, it's very sad. They're you know, they're not gonna be up and running for quite some time. Really? Like uh did they lose all their stock? Basically, yeah.
+
+[5:31] It's terrible. Yeah. So anyway, so um really good people too. Good people. Best wishes out to uh Sam Edwards and S.
+
+[5:39] Well S Edwards. Fantastic uh, you know, ham curing um you know, family. They've been doing it for generations and generations in Surrey, Virginia. Um they actually were one of the first people uh in the US that started buying uh a lot of kind of uh what I like to call better pork, like especially even like the Heritage Pork and Burks and stuff that uh Heritage Meats sells. Uh and when you lose your stock like that, it puts you out like a year.
+
+[6:12] You know what I mean? Like they have stuff that's over a year old. So it's not like uh, you know, you can just crank up and produce all the stuff that you had. You know what I mean? Not only that, but was it like I'm not sure which parts got burnt, but aging rooms take years.
+
+[6:28] You know, these big aging rooms take years to kind of get exactly where you want them. Uh and I remember once uh Sam Edwards told me that uh, you know, you could take him blindfolded into any one at the time. I think he had three uh different big curing rooms, and he said that they all had their own kind of uh uh feeling to them in terms of the uh microflora and fauna that live there that give the hams their um particular characteristics. And he said that blindfolded, he could tell you which one he was in every time just because they had all developed their own character. And so um Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, those those rooms are no longer now.
+
+[7:02] Yeah, it's like and if you talk to you, remember uh you know the Salamaria Belacy guys here in uh they New York, but now in also New Jersey? Like I talked to them years ago too, and like, you know, uh w one of the you know, things that you build up over uh a you know, a long period of time is a stable uh curing and um an aging room because like I say, like each one is unique and needs to be kind of built up over time. And so it's just really sad uh so even after like a year it's not gonna be l you know the same. I'm sure they'll get back on their feet and you know, uh, because they've been doing it like I say for a long, long, long time and you know, they're really good at it. But our our best wishes go out to them and um you know, I don't know if we are we do we uh is the radio uh are we doing anything or or is there any sort of uh Yeah, we're gonna continue to kind of talk about it.
+
+[7:52] It's very fresh, so we're just giving them a little bit of time. But um, you know, we work closely with them. It's one of Heritage's main accounts. I mean, like uh they were buying their hogs from from Heritage. Um so it definitely affected all of us and uh we'll definitely be reporting on it more.
+
+[8:07] I'm sure we'll follow up with Sam soon. Um yeah, well anyway, so I guess I'll take a crack at the at the ham question. Do you want to take a caller first? Yeah, sure, caller, you're on the air. Hey, it's uh Harry from Chicago Pacing.
+
+[8:20] Hey, how you doing? Good. Cell phone reception. You're uh you're cutting in and out a bit, Holmesek. See if you can move a couple of feet and then start uh start again.
+
+[8:33] Uh is better? Uh yep. So we're uh doing pastry and but I'm calling for Barker who is trying to make a non-alcoholic Negroni? He was saying between juniper and coriander and pine. He was pretty happy with like a gin component.
+
+[8:57] But was wondering if you had any advice on recreating kind of like a mock sweet vermouth or campari. Yeah. Well, I've done uh in fact, Jack, I don't know if we can search it, but we've we actually gave a recipe for uh a compari soda out. It was a couple of years ago. Um but yeah, we did like uh a compari variant.
+
+[9:22] So you can do um like a water-based um, you know, you just gotta go to you know, whatever. I don't know in Chicago where you get the stuff, but like, you know, here we have a couple of stores where that sell all of the various uh kind of barks and and roots and stuff. Uh so c you know, Calustian's here is one and uh dual specialty uh shop is another and a couple others, but I'm sure you have some sort of local joint you can go. Um I forget everything that is is uh in the compare because it's been a while. I think it's like uh genshin, right?
+
+[9:54] Try episode 165. It's coming up that you talked about compari there. Right to the listener, go back and listen. I've never tried to uh I've never tried to tackle a vermouth, right? So if you're gonna do a vermouth, there's a couple of things, especially if you're gonna do a vermouth for a Negroni, there's gonna be a couple of things that you're gonna need to hit.
+
+[10:17] One, remember vermouth is wine-based. Okay. So in order to get it right, you're going to need uh some acid in it. Um preferably similar acid balance that you'd get uh in uh a wine. So uh, you know, some some um tartaric, depending, perhaps some lactic, and perhaps some malic, depending on that, on the ratio that you're gonna get out there.
+
+[10:43] Um you could conceivably use uh grape juice because you're going to have to add sugar anyway because the vermouth is also sweet. In addition to that, you're going to have to figure out whatever herb base uh you're going to want to uh kind of mimic um the vermouth. So you're going to need those three components. You're going to need the herby component, you're going to need the an acid component, and you're going to need some sugar because it's not, you know, in a negroni, it's not uh, you know, typically a dry, um, a dry vermouth. It's also typically a, you know, a darker, uh, a darker vermouth.
+
+[11:18] And so you might want to get some kind of brown or matterized characteristics in there as well. Um now something you might want to consider when you're doing it, because you're if doing an actual negroni like it's a stirred cocktail, right, uh, in a non-alcoholic form, unless you add some super bodying agents to it, I just don't think you're gonna get the kind of viscosity out of it that's gonna make it drink, even forget the fact that there's no alcohol in it, but that it's gonna make it drink like it's a negroni. Um it's gonna have more of the bot like a uh it's gonna have more of like a like a juicy kind of uh body to it than a negroni would. What I would suggest is is going like a little bit lighter on all the flavors and doing it in the style of a carbonated negroni because the flavors of a negroni carbonate very well, and once you carbonate something like that, especially something with uh bitters in it. People first of all are used to um like uh you know this the sand bitter sodas, which are very similar to a compari or a comparian soda, and the addition of the gin components and uh the vermouth components, they carbonate quite well.
+
+[12:29] Uh and um I think you might have better luck with making something that has an uh uh the feel of a carbonated Negroni than the feel of a stirred Negroni, but that's just my my feeling. What do you think, Stas? You have any feelings on that? That's good. Yeah.
+
+[12:41] Jack? Cool. Yeah. All right. All right, well, good luck with it.
+
+[12:45] Let us know what happens. Uh shoot us a tweet at uh at Cooking Issues and let us know what happens, or go on the uh on the board that uh uh they have here at Heritage Radio. All right, well dude, have a good day. I you too. Um those commercials like Can You Hear Me Now?
+
+[12:58] Can you hear me now? Yeah. I can't believe that we still deal with the shitty cell phone reception like that. Well, you know, it's like you know, uh we we can't get anything right. Yeah.
+
+[13:07] Sorry. You know what I mean? Like we can't get we can't get like, you know, the simplest things can't get right. I'll give you an example. Today, I'm I'm trying to, you know, get here and the streets of New York.
+
+[13:18] Well, we did we did an admirable job like getting the city kind of cleaned up from the snowmageddon that we had here. It was like what, 26 inches or some some nonsense like this? Yeah. But I saw this idiot, not not even a private idiot, like a city paid idiot, like paid by the three of us. Like we're paying this idiot, right?
+
+[13:34] And I don't know whether this has any meaning to you, but he's plowing the street, right? And he's got the plow adjusted wrong. First of all, he's plowing in a rear-wheel drive pickup truck that doesn't have limited slip differential, okay, without weighing his bed down at all. So he's got this like hyper light bed that he's trying to drive a snow plow with, and and his back wheels, he doesn't have a limited slip differential on it. Then he adjusts his freaking plow so that it's too high up and he lets too much snow underneath so that he's running over like uh, you know, like uh three-quarters of an inch of slushed out snow, and his rear tires are just spinning and burning rubber, and he's going down the highway, uh down the street with his tires going like and the truck is only going like you know half a mile an hour or two miles an hour because it's the equivalent of just like you know crawling along because he's burning his back wheels up because he's a freaking moron.
+
+[14:33] Did you help him? I was late to come to the show. But what am I gonna do? Knock on his window, hey, hey, jerk, learn how cars work. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:41] Like, is that what I'm supposed to do? First of all, if you own a pickup truck, I don't know, is this is this being like stereotypes stereotyping people? But if you own a pickup truck, you're supposed to know roughly how vehicles work, no? I don't know. I don't know, I don't know.
+
+[14:58] I just don't know. And then, and then just to show like how crazy New York can get sometimes. A guy was was, you know, that you you know the term busker, Stasker? Oh man. But I'm sure, I'm sure, Jack, as a musician, you hate yourself some buskers.
+
+[15:14] Oh goodness, I hate buskers like Stas hates biscuits. Oh yeah! Boom! I hate buskers like Stas hates biscuits. Anyways, so first of all, first of all, first of all, extremely one of these dudes with the extremely loud, like tremulous, like, you know, trying to do the crooning loud voice thing.
+
+[15:36] And you ready for it? Rick Astley, never, never gonna give you up. I swear. I swear to God, I got Rick rolled in the freaking subway. And the dude, he wasn't, he was only off key every once in a while.
+
+[15:50] So actually, I was like, you know what? If you're gonna be a jerk, whatever, but like, it's the guy was louder than a set of freaking bagpipes. I could hear him two platforms away on a different freaking level. And like, like, we're sitting there, everyone's standing on the platform looking at each other, being like, freaking Rick Astley? What?
+
+[16:08] You know what I mean? It's like, like, I didn't have to just step through like a bunch of mire and slush to get here, and now I gotta get Rick rolled. Man. Anyways. It's no offense to Rick Astley, you know.
+
+[16:21] Um the guy, I didn't want to look over to see if he was wearing that long tweed coat that Astley isn't it tweed, or is he wearing camel hair? Remember, he's wearing like a long coat in that video. I can imagine it. Just Rickroll yourself and you can find out. Rip roll yourself.
+
+[16:35] I don't feel like I should be the only guy that has to freaking uh you know, deal with that. Anyway. Hey, quick, quick, quick shout out to Pedro, who was uh introduced to Sue V in the cooking issue show, and he did veal cheeks, eight hours eighty-two degrees, and man, it was so good he got a small tear in his eye. Oh he's very proud. I like that.
+
+[16:53] I like a small tear in the eye. You know, the uh I'm not gonna answer any freaking questions, am I? Like, like uh it's certain things when you get them, mostly for me, it's things that bring up like childhood memories. They can bring like a tear to my eye, like in a restaurant or something like this. Whereas Stas is the exact opposite.
+
+[17:08] Anything that reminds her of her childhood, she's like, I hate this. What about lemongrass? Yeah, I don't like it. I didn't eat it growing up. You just smelled it in the garden?
+
+[17:17] Yes. And then you had a universal hatred for it? Yeah. Did you get bit by something in the garden? What?
+
+[17:22] I used to chew on it, like, I don't know, just don't like it. Uh, crazy. Anyways. So like uh I remember a baby lamb I had like that at a very fine restaurant. I was like, or when I went to Danielle and they did the the Garridon, the ta the you know the table side service, but they did it so old school that I was like, oh, so old school.
+
+[17:40] That's when like you occasionally you want the hyper old school. Yeah. Something else I'm gonna mention real quick before I actually answer this question. Um I told you I bought this wet grinder, right? You remember you know what you but Stas, you remember the wet grinder that we made the uh used to make the chocolate and the uh and the and all the nut butters in and stuff like this.
+
+[17:59] Anyway, the one that I had broke, so and I'd never ever used it to make real uh real you know food with it that is it's intended to do, namely things like doses and iddleys and other and so you know for those of you that don't know like the doses like the cr the the So you you take uh Urad doll, which is like this like split, you know, um, you know, black gram that what's but it's you know dehuled so it's white, and you soak it and you grind it, and that becomes like a mucilaginous paste, and you mix that in with um idly rice, which is parboiled, so the starch is already somewhat um uh pre-gelatinized, right? So it's almost like using a precooked starch. Well, it is like using a precooked starch, and then uh, but it's dried, so you soak that and you grind it, you mix those two together. I did about three uh parts rice to one part of the uh of the doll. Uh, and you let it ferment for a long time, and it actually makes you can make these, you can make these crepes, which are name and you put fenigreek seed in it too.
+
+[18:50] You can make these crepes, which are like doses and they're crispy, or you can make these things that look like little frisbee pies, little um what are the you know what you what are those things called, Stas? Those little like they're they look like they're puffy, they're puffy, but they're like discs. You know what I'm talking about? Anyways, uh like an like an increstable. Remember those wretched things made by smuckers or whatever?
+
+[19:09] Oh my goodness, yeah. Yeah, they're look kind of like that. But anyway, but they're steamed. Um there's and they're delicious. Those are idlis, right?
+
+[19:15] So I've been practicing with this, but I've started, I just I've decided I freaking love this wet grinder because it's just such a pleasure to use. It's so quiet compared to like the Vitaprep. You know what I mean? It's just like grinding the stuff. Anyway, so uh Dax and Booker did not like uh plain uh idleys.
+
+[19:33] They didn't like them. Right. So I took uh we did the potato bar again over the weekend, as I suggested someone else they do. So I took some of the veg chili because for some reason Dax wants veg chili on his potatoes. And so uh I put the veg chili inside the idly and steamed it so that the inside of the idley was filled with chili.
+
+[19:50] So right there you have chili iddleys, chili idleys. Then, Stas, here we're gonna do. I put this on the Twitter, but since you don't read Twitter, I can I can tell you the same. We gotta we gotta rent something. We shouldn't actually just we really should.
+
+[20:02] We should rent at San Gennaro's, we should rent one of the booths and make Little Italy chili idlies. And if you could say it five times fast, I won't make you do it. Little Italy Chili Idlies. Have you ever done anything like that? What?
+
+[20:17] Like a street pop-up? Have you? Yes. Well, no, that's in your truck. That's a truck.
+
+[20:23] No, we did both. So I have actually served things at street things, but not for a long period of time. Never again. Well then you have to be able to say it fast. Can you say it even once?
+
+[20:32] Can you say it even once? No, I can't. Jack, can you say that tongue twister? Oh I had to look at it. Little Italy, chili Italy.
+
+[20:43] Little Italy Chili Italy. Ah, you're better. You're you're a you're a better man than Stas is a woman. Okay. She's just weak.
+
+[20:51] She's just sitting there like Futsing around on her on her phone, not even trying to say it. What car on Thursday? She's talking about her travel plans for Thursday with radio people who don't care. Did we get it? But we Stas, you have the entire rest of the day to discuss your Thursday travel plans with me.
+
+[21:08] The entire rest of the day. In fact, look, we're not even gonna have lunch here because there is no lunch here today. We're gonna be discussing that at any point in time. Maybe they're gonna be able to do that. We're gonna be hanging out at Booker and Dax.
+
+[21:14] We have a bar meeting people. I don't know if you're interested in that. After this, we're gonna go to a fantastic bar meeting where we have plenty of time to discuss. They always ask for more personal when it's like, but they don't care that you can't find a car on Thursday because they're not like hanging out with you on Thursday. They wish they were.
+
+[21:31] They might still have some Papa John's for lunch here, by the way. A true mom and pop operation since 2006. The Brooklyn Kitchen provides the tools that shape our food culture. They stock a curated variety of pots, pans, knives, small appliances, and other kitchen essentials. Their grocery department works closely with local farms and food artisans to bring you the tastiest fresh produce, dairy, and pantry items.
+
+[21:53] Their teaching kitchens allow them to offer a wide breadth of cooking classes, from knife skills to pig butchering, from cooking for couples to pickling and canning, from home brewing to pie making. Something new is always happening at the Brooklyn Kitchen. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklyn Kitchen.com. I have a question that I think we missed in the fold here through email. Do you mind if I jump in with it?
+
+[22:17] Sure. Okay, cool. This is from Javier uh Gutierrez. I can't say it. Uh I'm another one of the crazy guys working my way through the archives.
+
+[22:26] I can only thank you for sharing so much knowledge and the many hours of entertainment. My question is related to making pizza at home. I want to create a uh Napoli style pizza. Okay. But haven't been able to make a dough that when baked is thin and light.
+
+[22:39] I've used many recipes from Reinhardt Heston and others, but none have worked for me so far. Do I need to lower the yeast content or increase the hydration? Or am I failing to make the pies thin enough to achieve the desired result? As far as the sauce for the pizza, what are important things to consider? I know in previous shows you've mentioned adding anchovies.
+
+[22:55] But what are other good ingredients to make a killer sauce? Would appreciate any tips, techniques, or recipe that works for you. And for background, he makes them using a technique from Heston Blumenthal's show in search of perfection, where you crank the oven as high as it goes, heat a large cast iron pan on a stove, move it to the oven to use as a base to create a good and fast crust. All right. Yes.
+
+[23:16] So, you know, okay, a couple couple of points here. I think uh, you know, what Jeffrey Steingarden always used to say uh is that the only important thing in a pizza really is the dough. Like, and everything else is just you know window dressing for the dough. Uh and if you don't focus on the dough, then um you're hosed, right? And most of the people I know that make uh really good dough, and this is the way I do it too, um the trick to it is extremely long fermentation times, right?
+
+[23:54] So, you know, a very small amount of yeast, fairly high, you know, not super high, but fairly high hydration and just very, very long rise times. So you can do that uh a num a number of ways, right? So you can start with uh you can start with a like a more normal, like the easiest way to do it. Uh, and then uh, you know, Math Matthew uh uh from um Motorino, he like he he actually called me out because what what I had done for many years was you'd make a dough that was relatively high in hydration. I forget what I owe not super high, like I was doing like I think somewhere in the mid 60s up to I think mid sixties to 70, somewhere in there, and then um you, you know, I would under yeast it, I would let it start rising, and then I would throw it in the fridge to retard it for like 24 hours or like you know, 18 hours.
+
+[24:44] I'd pull it out like four hours before I wanted to make pizza. I would make all the doughs individually. So like the night before, I would I would break all the doughs individually into uh core containers. I would spray Pam into the core containers, throw in the dough, cap them, and then throw them all in the fridge stacked so that I could pull them all out and then dough for dough, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, just go, right? That's how I would do it.
+
+[25:09] But then uh, you know, Matthew was like, you know, that's great, I guess, if you're gonna be a jackass. He's like, why don't you like why but like just use less yeast, and then you won't have to do the fridge retarding step. You can just let it go. So I, you know, I've I've tried scaling further and further back on the yeasts and just letting the rise time be uh longer and longer. Uh also I wouldn't hold back on the salt.
+
+[25:36] Salt is going to de is will decrease the yeast activity, but it will uh leaven over time. And I think most of the people who are doing, I don't know how they do it here actually, but I think most of the people that um you know I've spoken to uh you know who really like the the job they're doing, it's just a matter of either using a re uh or a retarding step in the fridge or uh just having a really long uh gradual rise time. Uh and I think most people use a fairly like on the wetter side of uh uh a dough. I know that Steingarden, when he was doing his uh stuff in the oven in his home oven testing, was using uh a very high hydration dough, like one that he could barely handle. Uh I don't do that, but um that maybe that's you know something you need to do if you're dealing with a more normal oven.
+
+[26:24] I don't have a normal oven, like I've jacked my oven so that I can get up to 850 degrees. Uh so you know I can treat it like it's a real, you know, uh pizza oven. Um the pan might work. He said, Jack, you said he had the pan upside down, right? Uh I believe so.
+
+[26:40] Have to, otherwise, what are you gonna do? I mean, what's the choice? Um you could get one of uh Chris Young's uh approved baking steels. I mean, Chef's Dev, they have uh that I tend to still use stone because my oven can heat up uh a lot of stone, really freaking hot. Um but anyway, yeah, use that.
+
+[26:58] Uh as for the sauces, I think usually minimal is better. I like uh thick sauces rather than thin sauces, but a lot of people, hey, what kind of sauce do you like, Sandra? You like thin? I like a thick, like not thickly, in other words, when I say thick, I mean the sauce itself has more of a pasty consistency, but you know, it's thinly applied. But Stas prefers a thinner sauce, but then you really need a good oven because you're adding a lot more moisture to the top, and the pizza won't last as long when it comes out.
+
+[27:24] And you have to apply less. The trick to that kind of a thing is just application of less crap. Like the less garbage you put on pizza, usually uh uh the better in terms of the texture of the dough. At least that's my experience. You stuzz?
+
+[27:37] And the other answer, by the way, two things that are that that that belong on most pizzas, a fried egg, just put on the top after the thing comes out. I love a fried egg on any pizza. I like thinly shaved, uh, very thinly shaved uh potato, like thinly shaved the potato, toss it in uh oil, salt, and pepper, and then just like throw it on. And I like that a lot. You ever had that, Stas?
+
+[28:00] Sullivan's used to do that. They used to make a really good. I've had really good potato pizza in uh outside of Rome. Like really good. Um, but I like it, just like thin, kind of shaved.
+
+[28:09] And but that what Stas and I like the most is greens on our pizza. It would have been our day though, it'd bring the greens, huh? And we're like, I know, like jerks. So here at Herbert's, right? Every day we're like every day.
+
+[28:21] Every Tuesday, we're like, can we get some greens on our freaking pizza? And they're like, we don't have greens. We're like, how about this kale salad that you have? Can we just and like and they're like, no, they don't want to do it for us. They specifically hate us.
+
+[28:31] So here's what we're gonna do. Next week, we're going to bring our own greens. It's B Y O G. We're gonna bring the greens, we'll toss them with a little like a vin a vinaigrette or something or something simple, and then we'll just put them on top. I like I like uncooked greens on the top of my pizza, right?
+
+[28:49] I like that. I like to smash it in, fold it in half, and have the pizza be like a freaking like salad pizza. See, like I I like that, but more if it's like a white pie, you know? I like it always. Yeah.
+
+[29:01] And I'll tell you what, I like I like strong flavored greens, I like arugula that way. You can tell your girlfriend it's good on the two boots uh Cleopatra pizza. Nice. Well, so if you FYI, it's uh Jack, you want to give them the FYI on the two boots? Well, the cornmeal?
+
+[29:16] No, not the cornmeal, the connection. Oh, FYI. I th yeah, I thought we talked about it on the show. My girlfriend is uh in the two boots family. Yeah.
+
+[29:24] Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, so what the hell? You don't need suggestions in New Orleans. I forgot all about that.
+
+[29:29] Like they're New Orleans family. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and well, they're from New York, like New Yorkers, but you know, strong tied in New Orleans. Yeah.
+
+[29:36] Yeah. And by the way, uh in the chat room, Stas. We do care. Check out Costco Travel for cheap rentals. Thank you.
+
+[29:44] Oh everyone. Oh, oh, now Dave's just a bad guy. Dave showed us a real meaning. You are like, let's change the format and be more interesting and include more people. So that's the thing.
+
+[29:56] I don't want to change the format. I want to get some like so Jack. Most people. Yeah. I don't want to change the format.
+
+[30:01] What I want is to get maybe some like other style of guests in occasionally. To attract. I don't know. Like I gotta get someone to agree first. I don't know.
+
+[30:09] Like, who do you think would be interesting? Um, maybe I don't know. Like when we get guests, they're usually. Hey listeners, who do you want to hear on the show? Right.
+
+[30:17] They're usually a very specific kind of guest, right? So we'll get like, you know, Miravold or Chris Young or Harry McGee or Jeffrey Steingarden or Dave Wonder. So very like, you know, they're in the nerd realm, let's say. Man friendly. Whoa.
+
+[30:30] Man friendly. I didn't hear any females in that. That's true. Well, cup for cup. She that she came on once.
+
+[30:36] She said she hated Floridians. She did. Yes, which was awesome. Did Jordan come on the show once? Yes, yeah, she did.
+
+[30:45] She did. She did. She and Jordana Rothman. If you want to, if you want personal information, Jordana Rothman, who is a good friend of ours. Used to be the uh used to be the uh she wrote uh the most recent thing that she did that you should go buy is Alex Stupak's uh taco book, right?
+
+[31:00] Yep. Yeah. And um uh anyway, so she's been texting me pictures of Nastasia Lopez with like laser beams coming out of her eyes, like exploding Mark Ladner's head. Or like sounds awesome. Yeah, or Nastasia Lopez carrying already, by the way, a very scary butcher's knife, but also with like blood-dripping fangs.
+
+[31:22] Very interesting. Wow, she's very interesting photos I'm getting from Jordana. We got some other requests for guests here in the chat room. What do you got? We got Christina Tosi.
+
+[31:30] Okay, yeah. Well, who's uh who is that? That's a very doable. Yeah, yeah. Uh Donald Trump, not doable.
+
+[31:36] Uh David Chang, Alex Stupak, and Dave's wife. Yes. Yeah, well, we'll get her. We'll get her eventually. Okay.
+
+[31:43] So uh another thing is that Jack and I are talking about bringing the blog back semi-live. Semi live. Semi-live. In other words, like heritage rad. We haven't talked about it fully, but the the heritage radio would keep it from being like uh overrun by Cialis merchants, uh, right?
+
+[32:00] Um, which is for a long time it was like Cialis merchants, I think. And then uh and then we might occasionally start putting new live content on it just because I'm sick of not having that outlet, but they won't be four thousand word like, you know, posts on Nixonalization anymore unless I find myself like like unless I unless I feel compelled to do it. But um right? And then we go live, maybe we'll do the starch program on that. The starch, you know, the year of starch.
+
+[32:30] I've already started Stas is like I hate you love starch. You're the freaking pasta queen. So boring. What the hell's it boring? Everything you like is starch.
+
+[32:39] Hey, can we play that? It's a starch. It's a star. She likes a starch. Make it, make it, make it.
+
+[32:44] It's my favorite. We gotta watch that movie. I love that movie. Big night. Oh, so awesome.
+
+[32:48] I gotta call her on the line. Caller, you're on the air. Uh hey, Dave and everyone. I'm on the uh the ham questioner. Oh, here we go.
+
+[32:56] Patrick. Yeah. How you doing? Good, good. I started to pester.
+
+[33:00] I was just we're planning on hanging them this weekend. So want to make sure I wasn't having any mission critical errors. All right. Well, do you want do you want me to read your question so people know what we're talking about? I I have a question about uh uh hanging hams for equalization.
+
+[33:14] So equalization, folks, is after you do your initial salting phase, uh, the salt is not equally um permeated the ham. So you hang it for a little while and let the salt, as they say, equalize before you have the real um you have the real uh what's it called, aging process go on. Uh I have some hams that are currently curing in temperature controlled 35 degree chest freezer, uh, and I'm planning to remove them for equalization and hang them in unfinished basement. That is constantly roughly 50 to 55 degrees. Are there any pest countermeasures you recommend now?
+
+[33:44] I was planning to put hams in stockinets and hang them from the rafters. As the ceilings are low, they will probably end up only three to feet off uh three feet off the ground at most, three to four feet. I'm not sure how impervious the basement is to rodents. I'm guessing it's not, although the house hasn't had any food products in it for several years. I imagine bugs are less of a concern until warmer weather, but I don't really uh but don't I don't really know.
+
+[34:03] In the spring, I was going to move into a warmer zone for aging and coat in a fat rice flour mixture per b per Paul Bertoli's recommendations in the fantastic book, Cooking by Ham, which is a great book by the way. People don't read that anymore. Do you know that, Patrick? I don't think people read that book anymore. Good book, right?
+
+[34:17] Really? Yeah, I think great book. Love that book. Uh but it sounded uh like uh coating it in the equalization stage isn't a good idea because you want the moisture loss to uh continue now. They will not be smoked.
+
+[34:30] Okay, this is all excellent questions. So uh on the issue of rodents, uh, so I forget which one of the burgers, I think it was Morris Burger uh from Burger Smokehouse, once told me that uh, you know, when he was a kid, what they would do is they would hang the hams from uh very thin wires, right? Because rodents can't chew through uh wire and they can't climb on the wire. And so they would hang the hams on these like super thin wires uh from the rafters instead of from s from strings or ropes because the rodents could climb on those, but couldn't climb on just a piece of uh wire. He also said that when they used to cut slices out of the center of the uh, you know, the the the frying slices for it, they would rub lard on the uh faces as they as they cut it, mainly to stop the drying out to keep the stuff preserved on that side.
+
+[35:23] And he said that they used to keep the hams like that for uh a good long time. Now, they might have been um I'm pretty sure that they occasionally would smoke those things out um so that to prevent kind of you know pests uh from um going going in there. Now there's a couple of different kinds of pests you need to worry about, right? So early on, if you have parts of it that are still um, and I I think I wrote down, let me see if I actually did because I'm pretty stupid, I probably didn't. It's not here, shoot.
+
+[35:53] Uh if you go online, uh the University of Kentucky and the University of Virginia have very good cooperative extension websites on uh curing ham at at home. The guy who did uh Virginia Tech's one, I think it was Virginia Tech. Um I don't think it was, I think it was Virginia Tech. Um his name was Norman is Norman Marriott, and he has a lot of good information. And then uh Kentucky folks have a lot of stuff on on pest controls.
+
+[36:20] But uh earlier on you're gonna have problems with um uh you could have problems with uh flies, right? Uh like skippers and stuff like this. And so for that, the stockinets gonna help. But some people recommend actually once once it's you know done equalize it. You can't do it during equalization because it's equalizing and getting its you know initial kind of some of the moisture out, but they some people will wrap it full in paper, uh, which is still kind of like moisture permeable but not insect permeable, and so that's how they'll kind of do things.
+
+[36:48] But once you get enough liquid uh out of it so that the f the flies themselves aren't a problem, like the main problems that I've had with personally is with various different kinds of beetle and with uh mites, right? And so once you get mites in uh in your space, right, they're like there. You can't like you're not gonna you're not gonna get uh rid of them. You know what I mean? They used they used to use a um and and the name just went out of my head, and like I said, I I thought I wrote it down in the thing, but the name went out of my head.
+
+[37:18] I uh is you as you age, you just these things go out of your head. But there's something that they used to fumigate the actual hams with that is meant to be like a food grade uh fumigant, and uh, but it's been it's it's being outlawed not for a food safety reason, but because I think it's like uh detrimental to the ozone layer. So they they can't do that anymore. So there's nothing I think that you can spray uh kind of directly on the you know meat, except for they always say like rub a layer, like if you have an effective area area, cut it out, rub a layer of oil over it. Uh and some people put like like hard alcohol and then oil over it uh to try and kill uh the things um around there.
+
+[37:59] Also, like if you get a mite infestation or before you hang up, some people uh before you hang the meat, some people now will take like pyrethrin, like this, like which is like I guess from chrysanthemums or something, but it's like uh you know non-toxic um pesticide, and they'll like spray soak the uh the wood in the area with it to wipe out uh mites and stuff like that, and then they'll and I get I think it does mites, and then they'll hang it and they go. But like I've had mites develop, and you can see mites because they they make this powdery nonsense, uh, you know, where they're where they're like it's actually I think their bodies that be you know as they're dying, they make this powdery stuff. It's not gonna hurt much. The thing that really is gross are the beetles, right? And there's different kinds of beetles that eat different kinds of things, but the ones that I used to get would bore into the fat area um and you know right where the fat meets the kind of uh meat and skin area and you'd see the boreholes and they'd go in there and I had a real tough time eradicating them.
+
+[38:54] So I think your stock and net is good. Do you think I should put the the paper I could do the paper in the Soconet too just or is that detail? That's that's what that's I've seen people who do that. I think that's the way Finchville sells their hams, uh their paper in Stockinet and if you actually if you look up there's a whole curing uh technique called bag curing that Norman Marriott from uh Virginia um kind of proposes where you put a fixed amount instead of instead of taking your hams and kind of like lay laying them uh you know down flat wise and then turning them over occasionally and then just having the salt kind of distribute over like a big case of hams like the all an alternative method is to add just the amount for that individual ham inside of the paper bat and cure it like individually like that which is yeah that's that's sort of what what we've tried so far with the cure it's sort of a hybrid of the uh Bertoli percentages but with with using the bag right so I'm gonna see how that that turns out. I was just curious too of of of uh I think I have eight of them with two different uh two different pig greens just but I was just what when should I start polling them?
+
+[40:04] Because I'm thinking of just I want to see how long they can they can go you know with you know they're gonna dry out a little more but maybe you know keep some moisture in them because I'm just curious at the longer end what how the flavor is going to develop. But if you have four of them, when would you recommend pulling them? Huh. You know, in s in sequence, just to taste, as long as they're good. Yeah, I mean, well you can get, you know, uh like an ice pick, right?
+
+[40:29] And you can kind of judge uh during the curing time based on kind of aroma uh on the ice pick, like kind of where you think um where you think the the flavor is going and I would also highly recommend weighing them uh so you can kind of gauge how much moisture you're losing um over time. Um but I've never m you know I've never made my own from um from s from scratch but you know like all of the anecdotal evidence so if you try to mimic the like the actual kind of uh you know heat regimen you're gonna get in um in kind of like the classic ham production areas you know I wouldn't cut into one earlier than nine months. You know what I mean? And I would I would try to, you know wait a year if you could uh you know I've taken nine month old hams and aged them an additional year and they're hard but they're good. You know I think that the a lot of for you if you want to age them for a long time is going to be that fat coating especially um especially on the face where the meat's exposed because that's where you're gonna lose a lot of moisture.
+
+[41:42] And so if you if you imagine in your head slicing a country ham the the meat that's close there to the where it was attached to the pig's body where there's no kind of a fat uh covering right it's a lot harder and drier there uh than it is uh in in the rest. And so that's what you're gonna want to and also remember if you're using Bertolis uh salt quantities there are lower uh there are lower salt content so you could probably survive a higher degree of dehydration without having it taste consequently that much more salty so long as it doesn't so long as you have enough in there that uh during the initial curing phase it doesn't spoil but that's where the ice pick's gonna help you. You're gonna jab the ice pick in and you're gonna see what's going on. And of course, you know you don't need to worry about uh I mean if you do get some taint or spoil in the ham when you bone it out you can just cut that part out. I mean I've I can't tell you I've had you know so many hams that had portions of them that were not properly cured and that part was bad but the rest of the ham was still good so you know it's never a never a total loss.
+
+[42:42] Yeah so I mean I think so the plan is to where they're gonna equalize is sort of this constant temperature but the plan is after that to to uh hang them in a place upstate where there's about a thirty to thirty five degree temperature difference between day and nighttime most of the year. So you know when it's the summer it goes up to eighty five and it will drop into fifty. So I'm guessing you know by everything I've read what you've said too is that that's gonna be fairly beneficial to developing interesting characteristics. Yep. Yep up and down.
+
+[43:12] So like uh gotta wrap up oh so like uh that's the that's the reason the travel uni uh I think it's the name of them the drying machines they have in Parma are so awesome because they they imitate that kind of um that kind of cycle that day night cycle of um temperature uh humidity yeah so like that's that's what you want. I mean that's definitely what you want. Uh and so uh but you should keep keep us uh keep us posted either on uh on the chat room or to my Twitter at cooking issues and let us know everything going because I love I love hearing the the progress of how these things go. Well, I think I think the first tasting won't be till the fall. So it might be it might be seven or eight months from now.
+
+[43:50] Yeah, but like if you have if you if you have a problem with insects or something, like let us know. It's you know it's interesting. Yeah, that kind of stuff's interesting to me, especially if you're not gonna be there all the time. You know what I mean? It's uh you don't want to yeah, that's it's sort of it's it's not a hands-on operation at all.
+
+[44:03] It's sort of a let the thing sit there and come back every few weeks operation. Yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's know what happens. Cool. All right, thanks for all your help.
+
+[44:12] All right, cool. So I didn't get to any of this week's questions, but next week we're gonna talk about preserving basil. We have a question from Thailand. We're gonna talk about uh these new I uh this new weird uh freeze or this new instant coffee that supposedly is really good. Uh, but I haven't had it.
+
+[44:27] So like if any actually if anyone out there for next week can tell me something about uh sudden coffee and whether anyone's had it or tasted it, it like sells out instantly, but so it's hard for me to talk about, but we could talk about it next week on the uh show anyway. Also had a question on Tandoors, which would take a long time for me to get to, so we'll get that uh next time. And also a question on drying things out with sodium sulfate, which I'm not even sure how I should respond to, but we'll talk about it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:07] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Today's program was brought to you by Eating Tools, unique handmade eating and cooking tools. For more information, visit eatingtools.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of The Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday around from 12, so 12, 12, 10, 12, 15. Robert is Peter in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and the Heritage Radio Network. Calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[0:46] We are joined today not only, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, his does. Jack Jackie Molecules Insley in the booth. Hey Jack. Hello. But we have from the Museum of Food and Drinks.
+
+[0:59] Sam, say hello. Hey. And straight from Mad Town from the from the underground, the variety of different underground collectives that they have in Madison, Wisconsin. The one the only Johnny Hunter. Um I have a story to tell.
+
+[1:18] So uh I have definitive proof that Kim Gordon is a huge fan of cooking issues. Yeah. What? Yep. So uh last time I was on the show, someone called in and asked who our favorite band is.
+
+[1:29] And uh I said Sonic Youth. A couple months ago, someone texted me. Yo, Kim Gordon is at the butcher shop. It's one of our businesses. I'm like, really?
+
+[1:40] So I run over there. She had just left. Someone, one of our employees, like didn't recognize her and told us she couldn't use the bathroom. Oh. But she drove, she was driving across the country, stopped at our shop, took a picture in front of it, put it on Instagram.
+
+[1:57] So I think that like she listens. Why? She just knows you guys. No, she knows the show. Why else would she come to the shop?
+
+[2:05] Because you're well she likes she stopped in like Indiana, Madison, Wisconsin, Fargo. Fargo. Yeah. Well, I mean, like if I was gonna be in Madison, I would definitely stop by your establishment. So I mean I don't think it has anything to do with it.
+
+[2:19] No, she was listening when I said Sonic Youth, and so she stopped by. Really? Yeah. All right. Well, well, we can ver this is verifiable.
+
+[2:26] Like, you know, if this ever means call us. Yeah, call, yeah, call, come on anytime. Or you know, come to the come to the Mofad event. You want to talk about the MoFAD event we're doing, Johnny? Yeah, we're doing a uh event on Thursday at MoFad, looking at the effects of pH on cooking, which is everything pretty much.
+
+[2:44] I don't think there's much that we do that doesn't have a pH effect, but I think there's some specific things that we're doing that'll be kind of interesting. I think especially the base stuff, not a lot of people think about that. Well, I mean, especially everything you do is kind of pH related, not everything, but you do a lot of work with fermentation and preservation, so much of that is Yeah, yeah, and that's doing the like salamis and the fermented vegetables and the misos and stuff like that. It's all pH based, so you know. I think so.
+
+[3:12] So yeah, we're each gonna have two or three demonstrations. Um people gonna try things, people get I I I hope that um I think the thing that's cool about the techniques we're showing is that people can take a lot of these things and uh do them at home. And like my big secret reveal is gonna be how to make black garlic in three days. Which uh I think like you last time you were here you mentioned it, but we never talked about it, right? So you're gonna have to pay.
+
+[3:35] Here's what's gonna happen. You have to come pay the museum to listen to it, and then afterwards maybe we can reveal the secret on the show if we haven't already. Yeah. Um but the technique it it's it's slightly different. The garlic's still black, but a different flavor from the one that that is the exactly the same.
+
+[3:54] Exactly the same. Not even a little bit different, because I thought before you said that it was a little bit different. Not better, worse, different. We've dialed it in. Oh, yeah?
+
+[4:01] Yeah. I mean I I think there's some flavor differences. But I I think if you were to blind taste test variations of black garlic, you would not be able to tell ours versus the other. Well, in other words, you wouldn't be able to tell that there was a difference, or you wouldn't be able to choose which one was which. You would be able to choose you would be I think there's so many variations in what black garlic does because the process is 40 days at 140 degrees.
+
+[4:26] There's a lot of things that are gonna affect how the flavor develops over that amount of time. That being said, I think our process has some differences just because I've tried it so much, but I don't think anyone could tell the difference. Yeah. Do you know I think I already talked about this on the show. I was trying to come up with a new technique for this.
+
+[4:42] When you're ready, I have a caller. Oh. All right. Well, we'll take the caller first and then we'll get to it. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[4:48] Pittsburgh. Hello? Say that again. I said hi, this is Andrew from Pittsburgh. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[4:53] I'm doing very well, thank you. How are you? All right, all right. Got it got a question. Oh, I hope you have some sort of cured meat question because we got Johnny here today.
+
+[5:00] Uh uh unfortunately I wish I had prepared a cured meat question because this would be the podcast to call and before with these guys here. Exactly. What do you got for us? Um I have a question for um flavored simple syrups, specifically herb simple syrups. Okay.
+
+[5:15] Um and kind of best practices for creating them and then kind of running a random thought I had about them um by you. So um right now I'm thinking about doing um for things that are really delicate like uh basil and cilantro and stuff like that. Um doing um like a blanched stuff so having uh uh a pot of like cold cymbal and then uh do a quick blanch like cold simple surrounded by uh an ice water bath and then do a pot of oil water, blanch it real quick, drop the herbs into the uh cold cymbal to kind of blanch them, um and then uh bring up the uh maybe like room temp and let them ride for a little bit to try to infuse um instead of like blending it so you can come out with like a uh translucent um symbol and not have particulate matter in the symbol. Like if you would just blend it, uh that could go bad and cause off flavors. Okay.
+
+[6:07] Yeah, here's the problem. Once you blanch basil, it never tastes like basil again. Like uh you should um go I mean like it'll taste like basil, but it won't taste like what you are thinking fresh basil tastes like. Can I give a technique here? Yeah, yeah, sure.
+
+[6:21] But look, go back and read the Curious Cook has a whole section on uh the Curious Cook, the original book. It's now out of print, but you can I think look at it online. Has a whole uh thing about McGee uh uh trying to make uh pesto and his travails in in blanching Johnny go ahead. So one of the things that we do a lot is the stems from the herbs and do the cryo blanch centrifuge. Boom.
+
+[6:45] Really flavorful. And they stay for a long time? Yeah. Yeah, you your oils don't turn at all if you if you are your oils or your simple syrups don't turn at all if you blend it when when they're crowded. Right.
+
+[6:59] So they s we uh what you're trying to do, what we're the whole point here, right, is I didn't know it worked with syrup. I've done it with oil. Yeah, we freeze the syrups too and they hold really well. I have never done it with a syrup. Here's here's the thing.
+
+[7:10] You have what you're looking at is uh what you're looking at is trying to uh shoot the um the uh polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the head, right? And so you can you can shoot them in the head uh temporarily by like freezing with liquid nitrogen. You can uh do it by dehydrating the herb, right? Which is why like mint tea stays green, right? Or you can but that also changes the flavor uh or freeze drying.
+
+[7:40] You can do it by um you could do it by blanching, which uh alters the flavor, right? Uh and uh you can the problem with freezing it without blanching it is that then when it thaws, if it's exposed to oxygen again and the enzymes can kick back into high gear because the freezing doesn't actually destroy the enzymes, right? Right. Uh now I knew that if you mixed uh if you if you took that stuff and blended it in with oil and then spun it out, there's no water in the oil. And what happens there is the polyphenol oxidase enzymes can't operate in a complete lack of water.
+
+[8:14] So the oil stays nice and green and doesn't turn brown and get any brown flavors. I knew that. But apparently what I'm being told by Johnny I think the sugar content, we we noticed when the higher sugar contents were there with our simples that they would stay greener and brown when it was Right. I mean what what I'm just learning now is that apparently, yeah, high sugar concentrations, the enzymes also can't work in a super high sugar concentration. But uh I would keep it as high as possible, right?
+
+[8:38] Like 66, rich simples, uh to give it to give it a shot. Do you not unfortunately have an access do you have access to liquid nitrogen at this time? Because I mean normally if I was gonna do not unfortunately have an access to liquid nitrogen or do like a nitro metal drink like that I'm I'm sorry, I'm a large under, so I'm trying to figure out ways to do this for the bar. Oh. Yeah.
+
+[8:56] Yeah. So I would do um like nitro bottle drinks like like the ones that you've done, but I don't have access to that. So I'm trying to figure out a way to make like flavored simple that are that are salt stable. Um if you don't have access, if here's what I would try, and I don't know if this is gonna work, but if if I if you didn't have access to um liquid nitrogen or really to a good uh like a a centrifuge, I would uh the problem is you can't really pass freaking I would I would make a a I would take extremely high proof ethanol, do a quick blend in high proof ethanol, strain it through a cheesecloth, and then and then uh dissolve that stuff into a syrup, like a really high high high brick syrup, and it maybe would keep like a rich simple? Like super rich, as rich as you can get it before it crystallizes, and then maybe it's gonna keep.
+
+[9:50] But the problem is is that you're not it's gonna be difficult to get a high quantity of herbs into a recipe like that because you're going through like a multi-step process versus just like freezing and and putting it in, especially if you don't have a centrifuge. If you have a centrifuge, then you can just um I mean you could probably even I don't know, you could probably have you tried blending it directly without the first freeze into a super rich simple Johnny and spinning it out? No, but I thought it would work, especially if it's not the leaves, if you're just doing the stems. Well, I'd think it batter them probably. I mean, would would you do the the stems instead?
+
+[10:26] Do you think that's a better idea or do you do the leaves? Depends on the herbs, though. Some some some herbs the stems don't taste like the freaking basil, yeah. Ish. Yeah.
+
+[10:34] Yeah. You can concentrate it more too. You can just get like watch in there, you're not spending a lot of money. But like the Thai basil stems are like that weird color. Yeah, like purple.
+
+[10:42] Yeah. Which that turns always. Although, although purple basil, real purple, like fully purple basil, the color is awesome. But I've never tried to keep it though. Yeah.
+
+[10:52] But anyway, here's my point. I would try just try getting the richest simple you can. Uh it's just a it's a pain in the ass to strain rich simple. Yeah. Without a centrifuge.
+
+[11:05] I don't see. You know what I mean? It's like it's a real pain in the behind. Yeah, I mean most of the herb simple syrups that you see in bars are like sitting out on the table and they're like very brown colored. Yeah, here's uh try this.
+
+[11:18] But they're trying to make it probably some other way. Look, why don't you why don't you get a very rich simple? I don't have no idea where this is gonna work. Get a rich simple, blend the herb into it, and then let it sit in the freezer for like three days. Yeah.
+
+[11:34] And the the matter, the matter should the the simple syrup, the very rich simple won't freeze in the freezer. It'll just get real sluggish. And maybe eventually the stuff will settle to the bottom because it's still gonna be a liquid. Be like a clarification. Yeah.
+
+[11:46] Although a really rich simple, I wonder whether it would settle to the bottom or whether the stuff would float to the you'll probably get some separation. I don't know. Would it work? That's a good, I think that's a good method to see how the I think it would press. Would um would ascorbic acid help at all with the the polyphenol um of course, yeah.
+
+[12:07] It slows it down. Like you know, it's not gonna like uh it's not gonna completely stop everything, you know, in the same way that Linus Pauling didn't not die because he took all kind of vitamin C forever. But you know, it will uh yeah, it'll slow it down. I mean, I I wouldn't I wouldn't use in any of your syrups any of the uh sulfur-based antioxidants because I think you know you can smell and taste those in pretty small concentrations if you're not like uh dosing it exactly right. But yeah, ascorbic acid's good to it's always good to add to things.
+
+[12:34] Just the regular um point two five percent of it. Oh, is that what people use? I just you know what ascorbic acid, I just like I'm just like I just put it in because it's it's got such a low flavor profile compared to most acids that like I just I literally just like I I like old school kitchen it. I like pinch of this I'm a I'm a pinch of of kind of guy. Scorpic acid, yeah, that's definitely pinch.
+
+[12:57] Yeah, pinch, yeah. Okay. Um last question. Um I as I was reading, because I was kind of I I mean my first thought was your first thought to turn them E for this. So I was reading um on student cooking, um, and I was going across like what we were talking about, how the actual flavor molecules are are transmitted in so that they're much more um easily dissolved oil.
+
+[13:18] Um, I was thinking maybe using um some kind of an emulsifier almost to help find the oil and bring them out of the herb and it's not it to dissolve it herb. I guess it would be suspended in the in the simple. Do you think that would help with extraction? Uh well if you want to make an herb oil, like you can make an herb oil, right? And then you just use an emulsifier, like I would use like the one that we always use, which is the ticoloid and um which is a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan, and then you could put that into into simple, but I would do that right before.
+
+[13:51] In other words, oil, because it doesn't have water in it, is gonna be much more stable on the color and the flavor than once you then put that back into a liquid base. Well, maybe not if it's a really rich simple. I don't know, Johnny. I don't know. I mean, not not as like and not actually to like emulsify and oil like uh some other oil, but like the the this tiny little flavor molecules out of the herbs.
+
+[14:13] Oh, no, no. No. Do you think adding an emulsifier to the water when you're making a simple syrup is gonna make the herbs taste better? I don't really think that's no, I don't think it'll I mean, hey, look it. I've been wrong so many times in my life, like, you know, that but I n I don't think it will help.
+
+[14:32] But uh but you know what? Run a side by side. Like just run choose a couple different emulsifier, do a side by side, and then tweet us back and let us know, or call back and let us know what happens. There might be something that works every day. Yeah, I mean that's the great thing.
+
+[14:46] Like, do you have another call and then I'm gonna actually shut the phone lines down because we got a lot to get to. Oh man, wow, shut the phone line. Caller, you're on the air. Hi Dave, how's it going? Going all right.
+
+[14:55] Hey, um, so I just uh came back from Mexico City with the nixtomatic. Oh, nice. Uh it's freaking awesome. But uh now you call before you call your. Right.
+
+[15:09] Now you called earlier, right? Or I I did, exactly. Okay. The trick with the nixtomatic, if so, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, uh, when you uh in fact we're gonna talk about nixtimalization at the museum event uh in two days, uh, Johnny and I. So like uh, you know, what you do is is you soak uh par cook and soak uh traditionally corn in an alkaline and calcium rich environment, and then uh it makes the corn somewhat softer.
+
+[15:36] It also turns the outside of the corn into uh what amounts to a hydrocolloid so that the masa, which is what you make tortillas out of, has a you know uh a characteristic texture, which is why you can make with just corn, you can make awesome well, and calcium and you know you can make awesome tortillas. Problem is it is extremely difficult to grind uh nixtimalized corn in a modern kitchen because uh to use like a cuisinard or Roboku takes too much water. Uh you know, Indian wet grinders like I've been using recently, which we could talk about later if you want, uh you know, they don't handle a dough that's as stiff as as Massa. Blenders get choked up on it, um regular grinders like uh uh sorry, grind like uh mills, like flour mills, are freaking useless for it. And so it's actually kind of very difficult process to do at home.
+
+[16:26] So there's this thing called the Nyxtamatic, which is frankly of just a very robo version of the universally detested Colombian made Corona uh corn mill, which is just like a hyper low quality uh iron casting uh like grind wheel that just you know grinds corn, but like uh the the coronas are I hate them. Do you like them, Johnny? I don't use them. Oh, because they're because they're terrible or just because you never used them. Yeah, I never thought to use them.
+
+[16:54] They're horrible. So the nixtamatic is like is like about 30 steps up. One because it's got a big Robo motor on it, and two, the plates are a little bit better. But the plates on the Nixtamatic still aren't uh let me say, they don't come out of the factory working. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:13] Like if you look at them like they're they're they're really rough. So they're not designed for kind of the American mentality of I'm gonna spend a lot of money on a nice piece of equipment and so it should work. It's uh it's more like you have to grind those grind wheels into submission. So, like mine, if you look at mine now, it's literally a masa wheel when you look at it. When you're looking at like a normal grindstone, like for regular western, like for wheat or dry corn or or or whatnot, it like the grooves that are in the in the grindstone, like the you know how they go the grooves in the grindstone should all alternate in direction and they form like shears, like scissors that that as you go like shear instead of crushing, shear this stuff, right?
+
+[17:54] And those grooves also act as a transport from the stuff to the from the inside to the outside. So here you want the outside to basically almost not have any grooves left. You want it to be pretty flat because the masa isn't is like partially sheared at the beginning, but really it should be smashed into little pieces because you want it almost be like a stone matate mano grind grinding it out. And the clearance needs to be pretty fine because the masa is not supposed to be coarse on the finest setting, and it just won't work that way. Because I think if you're looking at your plates, you can see kind of big holes on the outside of the where the two grindstones meet.
+
+[18:28] So you just gotta run that sucker, and your first three times, four times that you make masa, you're gonna have to run it through two and three times. This texture's still not gonna be right, but keep bearing down on that freaking plate, and then as you go, it's just you're looking at it, it's gonna be smoother and smoother around the periphery of the stones as they true themselves to each other and become uh kind of better mated, and then your masa is just gonna get better and better. Okay, so you're really tightening that um Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah.
+
+[18:55] Is do you have because I kind of I tried get running it through a second time, and like it was pretty tough to really get it through. Oh, yeah, it is. Um so we you just really bear down on it. Oh, yeah. Now, here's the thing.
+
+[19:09] Do not run the Nyx tomatic to the point where the wheel stops for more than about ten seconds. That's what I did uh like a month ago when I was making uh nut butter with it uh or two months ago, and I was making nut butter with it, and I I like added, I told I think I told you I added sugar to the nuts. Yes, yes, yes. No sugar, right? Do not know, dude.
+
+[19:29] No, ever, never, never add sugar to the nuts when you're when you're grinding them. It just like totally sees the machine. And I really had a nuclear like puff. Like, you know, like like a like a like a mushroom cloud of smoke and like you know, phenolic like insulation smell behind it, and it turned off. It came back on.
+
+[19:49] But we're actually we're testing it. We're doing miximalization at the ex at the museum thing, you know, and and and so like we're gonna see like probably tomorrow, we're gonna run the test on it to see whether it still has still has its huevos left, whether it still has enough huevos to grind masa, and we're hoping it does. Have you uh have you ever used a meat grinder for masa? No, but I mean like you had like what kind of plate would you put it through? This is like the tiniest dye.
+
+[20:12] I don't know. Have you tried it? That's yeah, we use it. How how coarse is it? It's gonna be for more like for tamales.
+
+[20:17] You can't do like tortillas. Uh we make tortillas with it. We run it through a couple times. It works pretty well. Really?
+
+[20:21] Yeah. I mean, it's not like I it's not nearly as good as like a stone grinder, but like I'm pretty happy with the especially I think if you used it first and then ran it through, you could probably save yourself some time. I've never owned a real meat grinder. I've just owned those Kitchen Aid things, which are monstrosities. Yeah, I mean a real grippy grinder will put it through fast enough, and the blade will be like the motor is powerful enough to really get like a pretty smooth texture.
+
+[20:46] Yeah, but you're talking about like the the the big ones where you soak the plates in the in the uh in oil when you're done for the end of the night. Exactly, yeah. Bench top ones at least minimum. Yeah. You know what don't work?
+
+[20:56] The KitchenAid ones. No. Worse piece of equipment. You know what's even worse than that is their flour mill. You ever use that?
+
+[21:04] No. It's a wretched, it's just a wretched. They're their pasta extruder is pretty terrible as well. You know why? Because it's based on their meat grinder.
+
+[21:12] Yeah. Which is hey, look, I love kids, my kitchen aid. I'm not trying to say anything negative about the KitchenAid here. But all plastic pieces for attachments is gonna be. Yeah, also there's just something like I've used real meat grinders, like you know, back when I was teaching at the SCI, and like my impression of a real meat grinder is meat wants to go in one end and come out the other.
+
+[21:31] That was not my impression with the Kitchen Aid. No, it wants to come back up. Yeah, yeah. It wants to spit back in your face. Which is not what you want meat to do.
+
+[21:39] No, and you you're raising your temperature way too high. Oh, super high. You think it's because the choke point's too small at the end of the dye? Or just because it's just bad? I think the machinery itself is like too much movement and it's not like it's bending and it's not like it's it's not like two pieces of metal with a powerful motor.
+
+[21:58] Yeah. I mean the only luck I've ever had with the Kitchen Aid one is where you you have to really make sure you cut the stuff into strips. Strips, yeah. Like, and then you have to s because they have to fit into the in between the auger and the tube assembly without like having too much compression, right? And you need to basically par freeze everything.
+
+[22:15] Yeah. Which then kind of messes up your texture if it's like a little bit frozen. That's the only way I've been able to use my KitchenAid grinder. It's fun to see people who have never used a real meat grinder. You know, you get like the the the standy mix the standing grinder that can do, you know, 300 pounds in like four minutes.
+
+[22:33] And they're like, what the heck? Like, this would save us so much time. But what do you are you were you grinding tomorrow at the uh uh on Thursday at the at the event? Yeah. What are you gonna use crappy kitchen aid grinder?
+
+[22:44] No, a friend of mine who works at a restaurant, I was like, dude, I can't use a kitchen egg, I gotta borrow yours. Oh no. Nice. And what do you but are you stuffing with a regular five-pound vertical guy? Yeah, I think it's uh little L E M one.
+
+[22:56] I think it might be a 10-pound so 10 pounder? The only one I I've I've owned, I remember back in the day when we were teaching at the FCI, they were gonna start teaching sausage stuffing. Yeah. And like I turned them on to like the the $80 version of the five-pound stuffer that they sell at like Grizzly. Yeah.
+
+[23:11] Really bad welds on that thing. Stuff sausage fine, though. Yeah, so it's fine. Actually, uh, that was the first stuffer we had, and someone who used to work for us is getting married this summer. I'm giving that to them for a wedding present.
+
+[23:21] Yeah, you're giving them the 8995 Grizzly. Yep. Yeah. He's pretty stoked. Yeah, well, it should be like, you know, here's the thing.
+
+[23:27] My only concern with that is that if you're gonna actually use it to get certified, the welds are so shitty that the NSF people, I don't know how the hell they sell it. You know what I mean? Because it's got it's basically like, you know, it it's its own uh it's its own back slop because it's always holding some sweet sweet business from your last time around. You know what I mean? Yeah, the inspectors come in and just you're gonna kill somebody.
+
+[23:47] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we all gotta go sometime. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
+
+[23:52] So uh caller, I hope I answered some. I didn't I don't know that I even answered a question, or do we just talk about nicomatics? I think you got it. Because he was that he was wanting to know how to prep it. All right.
+
+[24:01] All right. So um now, should we take a quick break and then come back or no? Yeah. Come back with cooking issues. All right, here we go.
+
+[24:41] Inspired by the finely crafted tools built at the hands of friends in and around custom knife making and with a love of all things food, Abe Shaw began forging a collection of culinary tools unlike any other. Collecting and working with custom and handmade knives for over a decade, Abe has developed a deep respect and admiration for the artists, metalsmiths, woodworkers, and craftspeople behind the endless interpretations of these ancient tools that feed us, the most intimate tools in our lives. They needed a showcase, and eating tools was born. The curated collection of unique and extraordinary handmade culinary utensils you'll find here, along with a handpicked selection of top quality production-made pieces, represents a catalogue of products never before assembled in one place. Many of these products can only be found at Eating Tools.
+
+[25:26] Food, cooking, craftsmanship, and art are their ingredients. Oh, yeah, that is uh that is a new sponsor, a new business member. Eat eating tools, huh? Yeah. That's what that's what we get called all the time, right?
+
+[25:57] Eating tools. So what's on their website? Like, what do they sell? Are they designing or are they are they just selling other people's eating tools? Yeah, I believe so.
+
+[26:04] You have to visit the website. John, are you familiar with these guys? No, I was whether they were the first sponsor or the first tattoo. Really? Sam, are you an eating tool?
+
+[26:12] Are you a familiar with the eating tools? I'm not. I have a chat room comment. Two a two two-part comment. Um lot of good stuff happening right now about back slop is the comment.
+
+[26:24] Oh, yeah. And then um more more stars. Was the comment from the chat room. Oh well. I know it's Jordanian.
+
+[26:34] Alright, well, from Jordana, a friend of a friend of the program, actually, you know, f actual friend, like you know. Uh the she uh like recently wrote Alex Dupac's taco book, which we I think we discussed that last week. She had a question in a tattoo artist friend of mine uses citrus as a canvas for fine artwork made with a tattoo gun. Oh, mine too. Is this the same lady?
+
+[26:59] No, different friend. A man not not Amanda? Nope, nope, nope, nope. All right. Uh wants to think about methods of preserving the work, uh, since obviously it rots.
+
+[27:09] And uh, you know, what what do you what do you think? Well, here's the thing. Like, I think if you're gonna make back in the day, I just would have videotaped it rotting and then just had like sequences of like shots or time lapse, like I would have just taken like pictures of it like as it rotted and then like blown them up like super big on the wall because remember, like with art just like multiple like multiplying things and like you know, putting big things up on the wall equals awesome. But let's let's take this problem serious seriously. Now the issue is with citrus, you can't preserve citrus in alcohol without leaching the color.
+
+[27:46] Like that's the thing. Like you'd think you could preserve it like in alcohol, and apparently she wants to eventually do it in resin. The problem with preserving things like fruit and resin is you need to get rid of the water to preserve it in resin. Like w all those things that you see that like flowers and resin and stuff, they've all been dehydrated first. And the problem with dehydrating something as large as a piece of citrus is that uh it has to you have to get it to shrink slowly.
+
+[28:12] I mean, I I have successfully dried whole citrus, and you go to the market all the time, you see those dried lemons and dried citrus, but they're small and dark brown. You know what I mean? They're not like you know looking like a tattoo, which yeah, it could be its own thing. But um you could also mean you could try replacing a large portion of the water with glycerin, which is how they preserve a lot of flowers. They'll do a glycerin soak, and then as it dehydrates, it doesn't lose as much volume.
+
+[28:40] But I think you're gonna have problems. You could you could preserve it in simple syrup, right? Uh by changing the concentration of simple syrup, but you're still gonna get some color bleed. You could do it with uh old school, you could try formalin, like the way that they do that, but that's kind of gross. Here's what I think you should try to do.
+
+[28:55] I think you should freeze dry it. If the color's gonna look more pastel, but it will retain its exact shape. Then what you can do is you could, after you freeze dry it, you can paint it with a um like a resin coat on the outside, and that should re brighten the colors substantially over the kind of weird pastel note that you get on the freeze drying. The problem with freeze-drying large things is it's not what food people normally do. You have to go to like a f like a taxidermist specialist who specializes in freeze-drying kind of like animals and other things.
+
+[29:30] She wants to know if you can dye it after freeze drying. What do you mean dye it? Like dye it. You mean tattoo it or dye it? I would imagine dye it like a color.
+
+[29:38] Oh. Man, probably. You could paint something, you could probably spray it or dip it. I mean, it's just a very light porous, and you remove the water. Once you remove the water, it's fragile, like it can break, so you're gonna want to seal it right away or encase it in something, kind of um encase it in something so it doesn't kind of crack open.
+
+[29:55] But uh, I mean, I'm sure I guess you could dye it. But I mean, I thought the whole point was to preserve it as it was when it was tattooed, in which case we want to dye it. Ryan, am I wrong about this, guys? I'm gonna take a call. We have a caller.
+
+[30:08] All right, caller, you're on the air. It's Kim Gordon. Come on, it is not. You're making it up. Is it just a who do we got, caller?
+
+[30:15] Hi. Hi. Hi, this is uh Chris from the Green Zone. How you doing? Good, good.
+
+[30:21] Otherwise known as uh Aladdin Sane to Jack. Wow. Alright, so what do we what do we got? Yeah, so I mentioned to you on I think Instagram that I had some Turkish coffee tips for you. Oh yeah?
+
+[30:31] Hook up. How's it been going with that? I I have not uh I I have not been doing it uh recently. I need to get back into it. My my Mokelkete is still just a pile of uh coffee grounds.
+
+[30:43] I haven't c cleaned it out, so it's still I'm I'm still set up to do it uh because uh I think I mentioned last time I've I uh kind of was hand pulverizing it. None of the coffee mills I had were really making a fine fine enough kind of grind to do uh the Turkey or Greek, depending on how you think about it. My problem uh is um I can't get I can't get a really good foam. I can get it to rise kind of once, but I can't get it to rise again. And I've not I've not had something where I was like, see, here's my I think I said this before on the show.
+
+[31:14] My feeling is anything that has a super long pedigree, right? And I've tasted good Turkish coffee, right? Yeah. Uh but I haven't made that cup for myself yet where I'm like, yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:27] Yeah, I know I do know what you mean. Uh I was in Beirut for three weeks over Christmas and New Year, and I had nothing to do at home but make Turkish coffee. And uh I was really craving my favorite cup from Istanbul, so I searched YouTube for some videos, and there's actually a video where in Turkish he tells you how he makes it. And his method is quite different to everything else I've seen, and I tried it for myself, and you know, amazingly it works. Basically, use way more coffee than you think you need, and then stir it add a little bit of hot water to it and stir it really finely to make a paste of the coffee, and then add more hot water, stir it again so it's all as homogenized as you can get it, and then put that on the flame.
+
+[32:06] And since the water's already hot, it starts foaming very, very soon, but it creates this really thick, dense foam. And uh I can send you the video later, but it it really works, and it's so counter to every other Turkish coffee method that I've seen. And he's using a rapid flame, or is he doing like a moderated, like either with a plate or with sand? It's no no, he's using just an open gas flame. So it's exactly the opposite of everything that like we're told is what makes it good.
+
+[32:34] Yeah, I mean, nobody nobody in like anywhere in the Middle East really uses the plate of sand seriously. I think they just do that for show. Yeah. Alright. Well, look, send us the video.
+
+[32:43] Cause like I'm uh because here's what I want to have happen. I want to make some Turkish coffee and say, Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's what I want to have happen. Yeah, I think you'll get that.
+
+[32:55] It took me, you know, once I saw how he did it, it took me several times to get it, but now it's fairly consistent. And so now that you've described it in English, we can put it out on the put it out in the chat room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause they uh I need like uh as long as as long as I know roughly what's going on, I can kind of watch the hands to figure out everything. Exactly.
+
+[33:13] Yeah. I think I've said that on the show too before. Like we it's like it's almost sometimes better when you can't understand what a cook is saying, as long as you can see what their hands are doing. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:23] So, Dave, we're we're running kind of tight, but I I have to get this Mofad ad in the show. Can I can I take sixty seconds here? Or less, actually, for this ad? Especially since it has such a nice flow, Mofad ad. Exactly, doesn't it?
+
+[33:36] Yeah. So let's check this out. Hi, this is Peter Kim, the executive director of Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink. New York City's first food museum with exhibits you can eat. Mofad was founded by Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[33:50] We just opened up Mofad Lab, our new gallery space in Brooklyn, where we are currently showing flavor, making it and faking it. Flavor dives into the untold story of the $25 billion flavor industry raising questions about what natural and artificial really mean. And at Mofad Lab, you can taste and smell the exhibits. Flavor tablets deliver tastings of vanilla and umami, and the piano-like smell synth lets you compose over half a million different flavors. So come on by and visit Mofad Lab.
+
+[34:17] We're located at 62 Bayard Street near McCarran Bargainbrook. It is a family show. And I knew I could hear him almost laughing. Was Nastasi, were you here trying to make him laugh the whole time? I looked at him the whole time.
+
+[34:33] Oh man. I don't know. A couple weeks ago on the show, Peter was on, and a couple and like he tried to make me crack up during the thing, and you just can't do it. Because I'm not a human being. I don't respond to things like that.
+
+[34:47] You know what I mean? And so Stas, I guess trying to show her medal as a as a ruiner of his good time. I could hear it about I didn't know you'd be so close. I smile. I didn't even know.
+
+[35:01] Halfway through, I didn't even know Stas was there during the taping. And I could hear his voice change to that pre-laughing Peter voice. But we have to we have to bleep out the F U for the case. Okay, I'll I'll add a bleep for the podcast. For the podcast.
+
+[35:16] Yeah. Kids aren't listening live. Oh, right. They're not listening live. Should be in school.
+
+[35:14] Yeah. If they're not at school, then you know. Good point. It's fine. Good point.
+
+[35:24] Now, uh I can't believe that. Yeah, I knew I heard him laughing. Here's it. Like, here's some other things though. Not really piano-like to Smell Synth.
+
+[35:33] No. Not a not a man. Not like a piano, more like Street Fighter. You know? What do you think, Sam?
+
+[35:40] Yeah, I'd I'd say arcade-like. Arcade-like. What was your favorite? How old are you? Twenty-six.
+
+[35:45] Man. So like arcade games weren't like when I was a kid, arcade games were like me biting me. Like, you know, and you put in like a like a quarter and played a game. Is that what it was like when you were a kid? I feel like I'm more of the Mario Kart generation, so arcades were a little bit.
+
+[36:02] Do you go to arcades? I went to a few. No, I went to arcades. Yeah. I went to arcades.
+
+[36:07] Do they still have arcades? They're making a comeback. Yeah? There's like pizza places that have arcade games. There's barcade over here in Williamsburg.
+
+[36:15] Is it good? Yeah, it's great. You know, if you like arcade games, you should go to the museum of uh what's it called? Museum of moving image in Queens. Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:23] Yeah, they have a like like arcade games are considered a moving image, and so they have a section on arcade games, which is pretty cool. Or the Museum of Food and Drink. Yeah. It is the same kind of like as like the Street Fighter Mortal Kombat. Oh my god.
+
+[36:43] So I brought my kids there this weekend, uh, Booker and Dax, and uh and of course they just walked up to the damn synth and saw try to see if they could push every button at once. And like I looked over and I just see a wall of light, like like every light lighting up. I was like, Yep, yep, my kids are here. Uh okay. Uh let me see.
+
+[37:05] Let's get some of the do we have time to get some we can get some of these questions? Oh yeah, totally. All right. Um here's a good one. That's it.
+
+[37:12] I'm not gonna be able to get to all the questions, unfortunately. But uh a welder friend of ours, this is from James, a welder friend of ours in Boston has graciously agreed to build us a fire pit slash pig machine slash grill to take care of our warming and cooking needs. Uh he'll be building it out of scrap metal based on our specs. I wanted to toothpick your minds to give him the proper direction. Below are a few questions.
+
+[37:32] What's a good shape and size? We were thinking six foot long, three foot wide, and two foot deep on legs, and what's the best height for those. Uh, we want to have a grill top attachment and a spit with a shelf uh that we could mount to a motor. Uh any recommended motor to. Any recommendations on adding a shelf and are there any models listed online that you could use as a visual reference.
+
+[37:51] I'll just go there right now. I hate almost all commercial, the crappy commercial rotisseries. I'm sure there's a very good actual commercial rotisserie, but whenever I've built rotisseries, I use um I use actual like gear motors, like Bodine brand, like AC, like fractional horsepower gear motors. The problem with most rotisserie motors is there's there's uh there's play in the gears, so that um when the shaft goes over its dead center point, because you're never gonna have your meat on there properly, it goes k chunk and moves into the next position where the gears aren't driving anymore. And then over time, that just it sucks for a rotisserie because it means that if your spit job's not perfect, there's like a uh there's like a uh force on your meat every time as it spins around, and it's just it's just crap.
+
+[38:39] And then you can see it accelerate up the one side of the curve and fall down the other. I hate it. I hate it. You real gear motor is the way to go on that anyway. And lastly, is there a place that you know of where we could purchase a motor?
+
+[38:54] Oh, okay. Uh uh just think of all the heartwarming. Uh the quick we have one of those motors. The thing is you want to keep it away from the uh heat. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:02] You want to like shield it pretty well from the heat. Uh which means uh either like connect the shaft, make the shaft long and let it bleed off enough heat before it gets to the shaft. Uh if it's getting custom built, then they could put the put a space for the motor a little bit farther away from the uh fire. Yeah. You know, also I like you know what I like?
+
+[39:22] I like the uh I like the flat spade drive on a uh on a rotisserie thing. So you have like um you you keep it mainly round. See if you keep it mainly with rotisserie is is like you want it to go in and out really quickly. You don't want to have to futz around with it. So you want very easy to engage on the one side, and then you want to drop it basically into its bearing on the other side without having a lot of a lot of messing around.
+
+[39:47] The best ones I've used, I think are the flat drive ones, like the Italian style ones that uh uh Mark has, Mark Mark Ladner. Um I've always kind of wanted to design one that you could just drop in like sprocket style and have it go. That would be nice. That would be sick. Um the other thing is uh spits, most spits suck.
+
+[40:07] They really most spits just really really suck pretty hard. Um do you have any recommendations on this stuff, Johnny? On the fire pitch. The thing is you I don't like I don't like doing things that are multiple pieces of equipment, you know. Yeah, I don't I like to have like if I was to have a custom rotisserie built, I would want it to be set up so that it was like really good heat dispersion, not so that I could also grill and smoke on it.
+
+[40:30] So you're the anti-Alton Brown. Yeah. You're like you're like the ultimate unit task master. I mean, for like major pieces of cooking equipment. So Johnny, Johnny, your basic theory is this.
+
+[40:42] Listen, go get yourself a warehouse. Yeah. Go get yourself a warehouse and then fill it with large pieces of single use equipment. I have a warehouse full of it seems to work. Uh but the the one thing I the one thing I will say on on multitasking, because I've converted things to rotisseries before.
+
+[41:01] I've converted like uh my salamander to a rotisserie. I've built um rotisseries. Well, here's another thing. Like, are you okay with doing rotisserie over over a normal grill or are you backfired only? I I'm okay over a normal grill.
+
+[41:18] But I do think the backfire is um is like a more even cooking. The the thing on a rotisserie is if you're gonna do it all depends on what you're gonna do. If you're gonna do really, really fast kind of style rotisseries, like very small, almost like kebab style rotisseries, you can go old school and just do the hand turning. So those they always use flat spiral round skewers and little triangular shaped uh V grooves that they they sit in, and then you just it's not really a rotisserie, it's just like turn turn turn turn turn four turns and done out. Right?
+
+[41:50] Or you can have like uh uh faster kind of uh smaller rotisseries. But the problem with doing a large thing like a pig in a rotisserie situation on over a fire is is that you get a lot of flare ups, and although that can add to flavor, it's kind of hard to regulate, as Johnny says. So the thing is. Yes, the pig too. It're getting too much fat.
+
+[42:10] The drip down and yeah. You're gonna have a huge fire. All right, hold on a sec. So all right. So we can we'll we can talk more about this next time.
+
+[42:16] I'll get to the herbs next time. The other questions, we got we'll probably say one thing about MoFat on the way out. But one thing I'll say is here's the problem with trying to create something that big. Most of the time you are going to want to do smaller things for you and your family. Like like if you're it's a big difference cooking for you're gonna want to be able to cook for like 20, 30 people, 40 people with a party, great.
+
+[42:38] But it's it's a lot different when you're only cooking for one or two, especially when you're using uh natural uh like woods and charcoals and stuff like that. Because the amount of wood or charcoal that you're gonna have to use to fire your your thing up if it's huge, it's gonna be astronomical. The amount of time it's gonna take to get a big honking machine up to cooking, because those big machines are built on being like kind of big and like you know, and so like I would definitely invest at least in a smaller area that can be heated on its own, that you can cook smaller amounts of food for smaller groups of people, and then allow yourself a monster area where you can go completely ape for larger things. What do you think, Johnny? I I was gonna I felt like it was someone who was doing this professionally.
+
+[43:22] Oh. Oh, that's different. 'Cause like who gets a custom welded smoker box just for you know parties. Uh I I would. Yeah, but like I don't know.
+
+[43:35] I mean, uh it's true. I hadn't thought about that. Well, write back in and let us know what the intended application is. But I do think you're your your point of having something where you can fire up just a small box and you know, you know, do like one rotisserie chicken is gonna be a beneficial. Yeah.
+
+[43:49] Yeah, I mean, not for a restaurant, but yeah. Yeah. Well, in this case, so uh Sam, you want to say anything about the museum where they can get tickets to this uh extravaganza? Yeah, so go to programs.mofat.org. It's on Thursday from 6 30 to 8 30.
+
+[44:02] It looks like there's about six tickets left. So Johnny will stuff your sausage while you're there. Yeah, we we sold nine tickets to just now. Wow, sweet. I'm gonna do I'm gonna I'm probably gonna do uh my old school trick, which is off the blog, so it's old, of uh uh nixtamalized rye.
+
+[44:19] Uh I got a new technique with um uh using uh baking soda to do a clear dulce de leche syrup, uh which is just done with milk in a pressure cooker, which is pretty cool. Uh and uh Sam has gr has decided graciously made the lie eggs, which we haven't made in a long time since the last time we did the McGee course at the FCI. Clear lye pickle. We're gonna do the inverse loot fisk. Yeah.
+
+[44:43] Lootfisk. All right, that's it for cooking issues. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:03] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwig, Brooklyn every Tuesday from eh, you know, like 12 or so, you know. No big deal. No big deal, like 1250, something like that. Call in your questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[0:51] That's 7184972128. Join as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer. Lopez, how are you doing? Good. Yeah?
+
+[0:58] And Jack Jackie Molecules in the booth. I'm here, full of molecules. Oh, yeah, as are we all. As are we all. You know, uh, again, not not to uh belabor the point too much, but that was like the whole point of uh the flavor exhibit at the museum.
+
+[1:13] We're all just big sacks of molecules. You know what I mean? Peter couldn't come today. He's going to Ethiopia tomorrow. Oh, Peter Kim, the uh guy running the food museum now, headed off to Ethiopia where his wife lives.
+
+[1:27] Hopefully he'll bring us back some more delicious Ethiopian coffee and uh spices and whatnot. You know what he should bring back this time? He should bring back are you allowed to bring grains back? I don't know. Like uncooked grains?
+
+[1:40] Tef. I'll look. I want some good Teff. Because uh now, you know, I can I can tef it up strong now. I got the wet grinder, I can go crazy.
+
+[1:48] And speaking of uh wet grinder, uh, you did did you taste the mustard that uh Johnny brought last week? It's good, right? Uh so we used that at our uh at the demo at the uh at MoFad. Uh and big shout out to uh Mark Bystrom, who's the beverage director of the Underground Food Collective, who made that mustard, and here's where it ties back in, to in a wet grinder. Grinds it for like three days in a wet grinder to get the texture right.
+
+[2:13] And the wet grinder is my new old favorite piece of equipment that I just got a new one of. And a question if we get to it, you never know. A question will come up later in the in the podcast about uh wet grinders and whatnot. So, uh anything uh good or bad happening? No.
+
+[2:30] How was your how was your Monday night uh bachelor celebrations? Yeah, so it's like a bin of banner week for you. You had your Super Bowl. Hey now. You m and you you made ch Jack, check this out.
+
+[2:41] Yeah. Mark Ladner, uh huh, right, made the chili at uh Nastasia's uh Super Bowl party. Here are two facts. One he has never made chili before. Really?
+
+[2:57] He has never made chili before. Never. And fact two, he put cumin in it, which as we all know, as anyone who you know, anyone who loves life knows that you need cumin in in your chili, or what is it, Stuzz? Or it's a beef tomato stew. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:19] Yeah. So Mark put cumin in it, and here's here's the fun fact of the day. Nastasia enjoyed it. It's good. Wow.
+
+[3:26] Mm-hmm. I feel like You think you were biased. No, I didn't know. Doesn't matter. Oh, please.
+
+[3:32] Please. Nastasia, biased towards just like, oh, my boyfriend made it so it's good. No, my boyfriend made it so it's bad. It has to be like three times the biggest big thing. So there's more of a chance it would, yeah, it would have gone the other way.
+
+[3:43] I see what you're saying. Oh, yeah. Right. You kidding me? So you don't generally like um chili, huh?
+
+[3:48] I love chili. Oh, okay. I do. I don't like human. Yeah.
+
+[3:51] If I put it in myself, I would hate the chili. Not seeing it. Yeah, but you know, the other thing is. Why does one hate human? Yeah, I don't smell like a taxi driver.
+
+[4:01] What the hell kind of crazy racist bull crap is that? My God. Like one taxi driver I had long ago. Smells like that. People, are you getting a little taste of what I have to deal with on a daily basis?
+
+[4:14] How does that raise it? Sometimes there's a smell memory that you just smell memory in my butt. Alright, listen. Here's the other thing is that but back on the other, you know, honestly, like Nastasia would have loved nothing better than to have hated the chili because it should have been like big famous chef. Can't even cook chili.
+
+[4:31] Can't even cook chili, right? You would have loved that. Love. Love. Love.
+
+[4:36] Love. Alright. Uh got some questions. Uh this one goes out first because I want I want the uh the chat room to uh to weigh in on this guy. Uh Jarvis Milwaukee writes in, uh, hey Dave and Stas and Jackie Molecules.
+
+[4:52] In a month and a half, uh, my new wife to be and I wait, new wife to be, right, just got engaged. New wife to be. Not new wife, new wife to be. The moment where you're able to, what do you say? Break off the marriage.
+
+[5:06] Well, uh, look, you know, it's it's I've said it like many, many times over many, many years. The worst thing in the world is fiance, right? That's like an open target. That's like it's like deer season. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:18] It's like because look, here's the thing, right? One of them's, you know, popped the question, bought the uh ring or whatever, the other one said yes, right? Now you're in this moment, you're about to make this big, huge, you know, hopefully permanent commitment, but you haven't done it yet, right? You haven't walked down the aisle yet. So anyone, if they had the second thoughts, that's when the second thoughts, that's when they're they're creeping in.
+
+[5:43] That's why, you know, I mean, I won't go into the actual personal people that I know this has happened to, but that's why, you know, if you're gonna make the move, that's when you make the move. Not that I I'm I don't think you should make a move on someone who is engaged. Never. I would never say that. That's a terrible thing to say.
+
+[6:00] But what I'm saying is is you're at that moment where you're about to dive in the pool. So you either get off the diving board or you dive in the pool. You pivot one way, you pivot the other, but it's like a momentous kind of uh uh decision. You know, they're second guessing. I'm not saying you're second guessing, Jarvis, or your wife to be is second guessing.
+
+[6:19] I'm not saying about you personally. I'm not still come on now. Jack, you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like because look, not everyone is meant to be together, and but they still say yes.
+
+[6:32] My feeling about this, and people this is not a marriage show. It could be could be. That's Jack and my dream. Yeah, it's like this is this is a marriage show. It's like a personal show.
+
+[6:42] A personal show. You have the show issues with Nastasia and Jack. Oh, okay. Just regular issues. Here's here's a little fun fact for you.
+
+[6:49] Most people I know who have uh gotten married and then gotten a divorce. Everybody said they knew at the time it was the wrong thing to do. They knew when they were walking down the aisle that it was a freaking mistake. What are you supposed to do at that moment? Well, that's what I'm telling you.
+
+[7:07] Turn around. Don't get to that moment. Let me tell you, here's the thing, right? This is balls. Look, this is no.
+
+[7:12] This is the this is what is terrible about the whole McGillo, the wedding McGilla, right? Is that there's thousands of like you start spending money, there's thousands of dollars. All your friends are happy, your family's happy, everyone's happy. You're probably even happy. But you have this nagging thing in your head, and the people who break up.
+
+[7:29] What is that nagging thing? I have no idea. I don't have a nagging. I've been married over 20 years. I know, but what do you think these people are?
+
+[7:35] I have no idea. All I know is that you know, I said, you know, you know, you s you talk afterwards, you get the post-game highlights of the marriage, and they knew when they were walking down the aisle. They knew it. It's like it's like going to see a movie you didn't really want to see, you know, and then it starts, you're there, and then the back of your mind you're like, I knew I didn't want to see this movie. Maybe it's something like that.
+
+[7:54] Because you have to stay, you have to go through with it. Yeah, yeah. Once you're in. At least it's dark. Anyway, so Jarvis, this has nothing to do with you.
+
+[8:03] Okay, so back to your question. Wife to be, we'll be traveling to Seattle for our honeymoon. What a tangent. Yeah. Oh, so you uh actually about to get married.
+
+[8:12] Good. So in a month and a half, it's gonna be over. None of this fiance crap. It's also the only thing you could be a boyfriend and a girlfriend or whatever. You can be going out with someone forever.
+
+[8:24] I know, you know. Look, look at you, Stas. How many years? I don't know. Yeah.
+
+[8:27] Like, forever you can go out. You know what I mean? Well, you're saying this moment. Oh, yeah. Like, like married, you could do that until you die.
+
+[8:36] You know what I mean? This fiance is like the least permanent freaking thing on earth. You know what I mean? It's like it's specifically designed to not be a permanent situation. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:49] It is inherently unstable. Yeah, anyway, back to the question. I think you're convincing him not to do it. I'm not, I'm saying go through at the wedding. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[8:59] I mean, with no other knowledge in my head. Anyway. Seattle for our honeymoon. That's an interesting choice. Seattle for the honeymoon?
+
+[9:08] What do you think, S. I think uh maybe it's based on cheapness. My friends chose South Carolina or something. Really? Because the flight was like $64.
+
+[9:17] And I was like, hmm. My sister just got married, St. Lucia said it was amazing. Yeah, see, is that that's nice. I say if you're gonna do a honeymoon, just like go all out.
+
+[9:25] I don't know, deal with it later. I was more we went to Italy on our honeymoon. Italy. That's how my grandma says it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:31] That's where we went. We had never been, and it was, you know, life changing was awesome. Anyways. We are going to eat and drink as much as we can and wanted to know if you had any can't miss spots that you could recommend. We scheduled a tour of modernist cuisine, and also chef steps reached out to us and said we can tour also.
+
+[9:50] Uh we will be doing some hiking, uh going to wineries, etc. I thought in the past episode you mentioned there was a place in the state of Washington where either apples or some fruit or something was being preserved, and they have a museum there. Hmm, I don't remember. You remember that? Oh no.
+
+[10:04] Portland. I mean uh Oregon. Yeah. Corvallis. Uh they have all of the all of the pears, and uh, I think they also do they do pears and they do berries, but that's in Corvallis, which is a hike.
+
+[10:17] Uh and don't don't tell the Seattle people that you think that the that the Oregon is the same thing, or you'll be in deep duty with them. Um, where either apples or some fruit or something was being preserved and they have a museum there. I hope that makes sense because I can't remember and tried to go back to your old podcast, but can't find it because they're not in the database, Jack. What's not in the database? No one can search our old podcast.
+
+[10:37] It's hard. Yeah, they can. Whatever. I couldn't find stuff I was looking for the other day. Yeah, whatever.
+
+[10:42] Fair enough. Whatever. Uh okay, so listen, I don't know. Is anyone any of our people who are from Seattle or or thereabouts? Why don't you answer in on the chat room just question?
+
+[10:52] Chef Tom Douglas. That's who you want to look for. He's got like a dozen restaurants. Really cool guy. We've done some stuff with him before.
+
+[10:58] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. So look up Tom Douglas.
+
+[11:02] All right. But also, if anyone has any recs, any recommendation, and they're in on the chat room, uh, shoot them on over to Jarvis and Milwaukee. I hope I didn't uh say anything bad about I didn't say anything bad about marriage. I'm pro-marriage. I know, we I know, Dave.
+
+[11:18] All right. All right. Uh but I want to get that one out first so people can write their recommendations. Ben wrote in uh we it was a couple weeks ago. We're just getting into it now, on milk.
+
+[11:29] Uh I've been making the Chef Steps express uh espresso martini a lot recently. I hate uh like turning the S to an X, but sometimes it's worse. Worse. Worse. People in my family do it.
+
+[11:42] Wow. I don't know why. I don't you don't correct your family, do you? Yeah. You correct your family when they say expresso, this is what you do.
+
+[11:52] You just make that just make that noise. Uh you know what though? You know what I say? Nuclear. Nuclear.
+
+[12:02] Why? Because who wants to say nuclear? Nuclear. It's look, it's nuclear, like when you're talking about the nucleus, or like you're actually referring to something scientific, nuclear is fine. When when you have a bomb, it's nuclear.
+
+[12:17] Go nuclear. Do you go nuclear on someone, or do you go freaking nuclear on them? I don't know. You don't know? Yeah.
+
+[12:24] I don't know. There's another one. Coupon. I'm a coupon guy. Coupon.
+
+[12:30] I clip my coupons. What about you? Are you a coupe or a coop? I like to clip coupons. Yeah, Jack, what about you?
+
+[12:39] Coupon. Ah! Might be a long island thing. He holds his pinky out in Brooklyn while he clipped his coupons. I think coupon comes from your parents.
+
+[12:48] Pardon me, do you have any clipped coupons? You know what I mean? Coupons. Also, if you're clipping coupons, like, you know, you're not trying to show your wealth. Coupon.
+
+[13:02] Alright, so here we go. I don't know. Look, there's nothing wrong with saving money. How do you think rich people get rich? Yeah.
+
+[13:08] That's yeah. Yeah. Alright. Anyway, making the chef's espresso martini. Uh I make it with tequila along with the jalapeno stuff from uh Liquid Intelligence.
+
+[13:19] Uh I can't keep it in stock because whenever someone comes over, uh hear smell this results in the whole bottle magically disappearing. I do like uh tequila with the ha with the uh with the jalapeno. ISI I assume, which is the way I do it. Uh this recipe has you this is the Chef's Deps recipe, I guess, has you milk wash the coffee booze. I've tried it with a few different milks and have had very different results.
+
+[13:40] Cheap, ultra-high temperature milk makes small but distinct curds. You like that phrase? Small, yeah. Uh regular, whatever else someone gets from the supermarket, makes bigger, still distinct curds. Um A2 milk, what's A2 milk?
+
+[13:57] I don't know. We should look it up. Jack, look it up. What's A2 milk? A2 milk makes one giant monster curd that looks like it might become sentient.
+
+[14:04] I like a sentient. It's just a company. Oh. Uh the yield is pretty flat for the first two types of milk, but the A2 donated a bunch of extra liquid hui. Huey.
+
+[14:14] What's actually happening in milk washing? How much booze is left in the curds and how much whey ends up in the final product? Thanks, Ben. Oh, here's another call out for the transcripts. P.S.
+
+[14:23] One of the main benefits of transcripts would be a way to make a full list of all the things that you and Dave hate. Hmm. Hmm. Jack, has there already been anything that you hate? I haven't really gone.
+
+[14:33] I feel like here and there. What do you hate? What do I hate? I'll have to get back to you on that. Like like like foods or just like things in general?
+
+[14:41] Well, I mean, you can start with food. I just said expresso. I hate that. Oh, there you go. All right.
+
+[14:46] We gotta start keeping a list of jack hates. Uh okay, back to your question. Um, it's interesting. I mean, I obviously what's going on here is the um level of pasteurization is affecting the protein somewhat, and therefore the the clotting uh strength because this I don't know a hundred percent like what the actual reactions are. We should talk to uh cheese person.
+
+[15:09] I one time did a bunch of research on the effect of pasteurization on cheese making, and all of the cheese making blogs uh talk about the differences between um uh the different pasteurization levels of milk and the the curds, but I I can't I forgot to look it up again before I came in today, and I can't remember the exact uh right uh spiel on it. But what's technically happening in milk washing in general is this. Uh you are using the casein uh to mop up the um the polyphenols and other weird things that are kind of either bittering or astringent in uh whatever you're doing, coffee, tea, whatever. Uh then you precipitate out, you curd, you make it curd. So in the case of coffee, a lot of times it'll curd on its own because coffee is a acidic.
+
+[15:59] B it's in alcohol, which destabilizes the proteins. And C, it's got a lot of things that can bind with destabilize the protein, the casein micells. So coffee often will clot on its own. And usually uh things that clot faster for me uh on their own like that make little small things that you didn't have to sweep into kind of larger curds but whatever that's just my personal experience. So that's what's happening with um milk washing.
+
+[16:29] Now presuming that you get your you know the same amount of yield out you should get almost all of the whey out. It is true that uh I've had recently with milk washing where I've reheated in the presence of acid I get a lot of whey precipitation almost like making a ricotta but that's only if the acidity level gets pretty high and it's still warm when you do it, which I assume you're not doing here. So the there shouldn't be that much of an effect on um the whey because you're you're not precipitating the way out with the technique in milk washing. However if you did I'm sure it would affect um I'm sure it would affect it greatly because uh heat really affects whey proteins quite a bit. Anyway, what do you think?
+
+[17:11] Good Yeah she just says that's all shut up that's uh that's what it is. Okay. Chris wrote in uh about uh China and chocolate. Let's hold that we got a caller. Oh caller you're on the air.
+
+[17:23] Hey Dave how are you? It's Alvin Schultz from uh Houston Texas Hey all right what's up how's uh how's Texas Yeah really good to come down and shoot. Um anyway, I got a I got an update for you on an eggnog question I wrote in about a year ago and a question about nyx d'ematics. Okay. Hey hey, stay on because I'm gonna pause it Alan, hold on a second.
+
+[17:43] Stay on afterwards because I have an eggnog question that came in and I'll read it, and since you have some uh aging eggnog experience, we can talk about it together for a little bit, all right? Okay, cool. You want me to ask the Nixomatic question then? Yeah, go Nix Domatic. Nixamatic.
+
+[17:56] Um so in Mexico City, where do you buy it? Ooh, uh man, I wish I could remember where it was like like d are you going on your own or do you have like a uh contact down there? Uh I'll probably be going on my own. Um I know some people down there, but I don't know if any of the people I know are gonna know where to buy an extent. I forget the name of the neighbor.
+
+[18:16] It was within walking distance of uh the Almida, and it was like between there and um the the market that's right near uh Almida. So it wasn't all the way down by Merced, and there was like a little cooking district there, cooking equipment district, and it like it was that's w you know all the shops. So if if if you see any cooking district like on the map in Mexico City that's within like, you know, like a mile or a mile and a half of like the Almida area, that's where I went, and you just walk around the shops and a bunch of different people have 'em. And so it's just a matter of haggling on the price. And they run about two fifty or so?
+
+[18:56] That's my memory. Yeah. I mean, I bought it uh yeah, I uh uh in my head, whenever I really want a piece of equipment, I fudge the conversions in my head to make it seem like it's cheaper for me. You know what I mean? That's just like a mental Yeah.
+
+[19:10] Uh so like what else would I get when I was down there? I got that, but it's a lot to carry. Obviously, like I I I w you know, I wish if I had infinite strength and money to bring stuff back, I would bring back a matate, a real one, just for the heck of it, just 'cause I would like to have one. But I would never really use a matate, to be honest, because if you have the nixtimatic, uh, then you can just get a wet grinder to do the rest of this stuff that's not like nix d'amatic friendly. Like between the two of them, you can grind pretty much anything wet.
+
+[19:40] You know what I mean? Yeah. So you're getting good puff off of your off your masa uh for tortillas out of the nix d'attic. Getting good what? Oh, your tortillas are puffing consistently?
+
+[19:52] Look. No, like they're getting better and better on that, right? But that's really a function of grind. Like the commercial grinders are like so big and it's it grinds so fine. The coarser your masa, like the less you're gonna guarantee you're gonna get a puff out of it.
+
+[20:08] Now, I you know, I know that um you know, some people prefer the some people prefer that like really light, really fine grind, like tortilla, uh you know, masa for tortillas. And some people actually don't mind if they're if their masa for their tortillas is a little bit uh you know, a little bit coarser, so you can still see like like a little bit of um speckling in it. What about you, Stas? What do you feel? Uh my masa being speckled.
+
+[20:39] You like it's speckled? I don't know. She doesn't care. She doesn't know. I like speckling for tostados.
+
+[20:43] Yeah, and and obviously, but yeah, right. Like because they look better. Yeah. Um, but I get your point. But my the thing is is that every time I use the nixtamatic, it gets better.
+
+[20:55] So you know, that's that's where I'll go there. So like the first, you know, the first like three or four batches you make, you they will not puff. The straight up, I'm telling you, they will not puff. Um, you know, once you get past that, you know, like the the more you use it, the more the kind of puff rate goes up. But it's you're not gonna get like the out-of-the-box performance with that thing that you would get with like a real stone grinder or like you know the ones that are like a thousand bucks like uh I forget what model like uh Alex Dupac got up here or a couple other people have you know bought up here but there's a yeah the one's a cosme right yeah like you know the they're like mid-sized stone wheel grinders but you know that that's like the next level of horsepower motor up and like three levels up in price like you can't make an excuse to buy that and have it unless you unless you're using it pro you know what I mean.
+
+[21:43] You can't yeah you can't plug the conversion on that one right yeah so I have a process that I'm getting pretty consistent puff on so I'm I'm grinding by hand with the corona uh as it's fine as it'll grind and I've I've got probably two or three dozen batches through my corona right now and then I'm taking that grind and putting it in the Vitamix dry grain container the only thing is and I'm grinding the heck out of it in the Vitamix. Right. Uh the only thing is every time I do it I feel like I'm gonna blow the the fuse and then my vitamins be out of commission for a couple hours. But unfortunately I have two so uh if I blow you know it's a second one that gets that gets really nervous but but um my my popping pretty consistent well let me tell you if you're using the Corona I can't believe that you're still alive I hate using that thing so much. My right arm is really huge.
+
+[22:32] I I imagine I imagine that like you know you're like uh you know like yeah your one arm is like a stick and the other one is like a like you know like somebody else's leg like John Cena's arm because I hate the corona remember when we had long stars and I insulted his manhood and we made him grind all of that masa that night. Nightmare. Corona oh corona is such a nightmare. You're gonna love the Nick's dramatic, brother. If you if you're using the corona, you're gonna love the Nick's dumatic.
+
+[22:54] Just give it some grind in time. Alright now, eggnog. Eggnog. What do you got? I'll I'll say I'll say the question I got, and then you can tell me about it.
+
+[23:03] All right. You know, uh May May Kitchen Friends of the Show, Boston. They wrote in, here's what they said. Uh hope you guys are well. We made eggnog recently using four quarts of cream, one quart of El Dorado spiced rum, one quart of one to one simple, and twenty-four eggs.
+
+[23:19] Holy crap, that's rich. That's that's freaking rich. The eggs were separated, whites were whipped with cream, uh, simple and booze, and then combined with yolks. After two weeks, the knob mellowed, no change after four weeks. After eight weeks, and it turned into marshmallow snot.
+
+[23:35] See video. I didn't get to see the video, but I believe you. Uh still tasted fine. How? What?
+
+[23:41] Should we try to turn it into something weird and or delicious? Is actually already weird, but not necessarily delicious. Thanks to folks at May May. I think it's just you think the water contents to all that fat? Like what do you think is going on, Alvin?
+
+[23:53] I I think I think the uh the egg whites. I would say that I would mix everything but the egg whites and then just fold back in egg whites uh when you're ready to drink it and not age it with the egg uh uh the whites on it. So you think the whites are setting? You think it's like a low like a low water thing and the the whites are somehow setting over time, like like alcohol denaturation? I think so.
+
+[24:12] So what I was gonna call in with my update is I made a batch of Rolman's eggnog and uh also George Washington's eggnog at the very beginning of twenty fifteen. And I drank it over this past holiday season. I drank I tasted both. Rule Mims doesn't really change much of the I think I did the math and I that that's what I called it for a year ago, and I think the math on rule bins came out to about twenty two percent. Uh Washington was about twelve and a half, eleven and a half, twelve, twelve and a half.
+
+[24:39] And Washington's was real interesting. It got sour, but not unpleasant at all. It it had like these uh notes of blue cheese on the on the nose, but then like almost like a uh tangy goat cheese uh on the palate. So I call it almost like an eggnog sour. Both were pleasant, and both were aged at room temperature for uh the better part of a year.
+
+[25:00] You're not really selling me on the blue cheese eggnog. It's like you gotta come up. It smells funkier than it tastes, but it wasn't unpleasant at all. You got I recommend uh you put it in a tin and and shake the cr shake the stuff out of it. And it's it's pretty tasty.
+
+[25:19] Yeah. So Nick Bennett did like a three-year-old eggnog, but I didn't get to taste it. They our former bar captain and now the guy at Porsche Light and Stas. We tasted what? Three-year-old?
+
+[25:27] What do we think? Did we taste it? We didn't taste it. Or did we decide it smelled like poison? Yeah.
+
+[25:32] I think we decided it smelled like poison. I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying I'm trying to get to a vertical. So I made another batch of rule min uh this year. I'm I'm working, I'm I wanna make inspired uh my batches, so I'm gonna try to get the five-year vertical.
+
+[25:44] Right. And so so your your advice to May May is to hold the white back? I would hold the white back. Um I don't I I don't know what what recipe she's using, but uh but I with rulemans without the white is is uh is just fine after a year. Uh they'll funk at all now.
+
+[26:01] The real question is gets funky. What are we gonna do with this one that's already funky? Mix it into some sort of baked good. What are we gonna do? I don't know.
+
+[26:10] Um make cannelese. Yeah. All right. Hmm. All right, very good.
+
+[26:15] So you're gonna keep track of your uh tests and you're gonna give us a call back and let us know how your vertical goes. We'll every year we'll we'll come back as long as we keep doing the show every year. You come back and tell us how you're doing with the uh with the nog. Yeah, sounds good. Alright, brother.
+
+[26:28] Alright, see ya. Alright, have a good one. Uh we got uh two more callers on the line. So next caller. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[26:36] Hey Dave, it's uh Matt from Mystic calling back about the haggis. How was the haggis? Uh it was amazing, man. Oh great. Oh man.
+
+[26:43] Yeah, it worked uh it worked like a charm, but it stunk to high heaven. The bung stinks. Uh the bung stinks. That's like your that's your next album. The bung stinks.
+
+[26:53] Yeah, exactly. Well, uh, did you do any like pre-soaking or like washing or scrubbing? I yeah, I so I soaked it for twenty-four hours beforehand. Uh and it didn't really didn't really help. My kit hidden uh, you know, it's still there's still a faint aroma of bung every time I fire up the stove.
+
+[27:11] Wow. I think uh next year I'll do it off site. That's the that's the follow-up album, Faint Aroma of Bung. Yeah, yeah. Well we can get a trilogy out of it if we're if we're careful.
+
+[27:22] Well, I wish, you know, we were here for Johnny, which I wish Johnny I wish this was last week when Johnny was here because I'm sure he's dealt with that kind of an issue before. There's gotta be some sort of like pre poach in milk that will help out. The thing is you just don't wanna have it shrink up too much and everything before you stuff it. That's the real issue, right? Yeah, that's what I I would be afraid, 'cause like once you once you get it in the the uh hot liquid, it really uh uses up nicely.
+
+[27:46] Yeah, right. That's the whole point. Um yeah, how could you just a bunch of changes? It didn't impart any uh off flavor, honestly. Like once like but during the like the first like hour or so of the of the boiling of it, it was like really gross.
+
+[28:02] But like poopy or like tripe slaughterhouse smell? Uh yeah, like sort of it the combination. It's sort of like sort of like a halitosis uh note. Right. Uh and some, you know, and some barnyard barnyard song.
+
+[28:16] Yeah. Yeah. But uh but the oats worked. The oats came out great, so it was like totally permeable. And uh I did add a little bit more broth to the mixture uh than I normally do uh with you know with the lamb meat, etcetera.
+
+[28:30] Uh but it came out great. Nice. How were the neeps and tatties? Oh, uh great. You know, we just uh we just we must do like five pounds each at least, and uh and they go like crazy too.
+
+[28:41] So awesome. Awesome. Yeah, there was there was very little haggis left over, which is always a good sign of success. Someone can put the picture on? Uh if they send it to me.
+
+[28:52] Yeah, send a picture. We'll put it up on the on the thing of your haggis. I want to see. All right, cool, I will. Yeah, I will uh I'll is it can I tag you on Instagram with it?
+
+[28:59] Yeah. It looks like uh it looks like the sandworm from Dune. Oh, nice. That sounds cool. Those creep the hell out of me on the shot of Lud, so it's real.
+
+[29:08] You know what freaked me out in Dune? That dude who like would always like like have people's hearts plugged, and then what would he do? Drink their blood or something so gross. Remember that dude? Remember that dude, the dude who was on that chair that would float around and he had those people and he would unplug their hearts?
+
+[29:22] Isn't that what would happen on Dune? I don't uh it's not ringing a bell. Baron Harkonin. Look, it's been a billion years since I've seen Dune. I saw it when I was too young, and it was I was it was alternately boring and horrifying.
+
+[29:36] Uh but I I was a kid when I saw it, so I don't know. I never read it. I got another caller when you're ready. But listen, send that stuff in. I'm glad it worked out.
+
+[29:44] Yeah, I will. Alright, cool. Awesome. Go ahead. Thanks.
+
+[29:46] Alright, cool. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is uh Scooter in Montana. How you doing? I got a cigar not too bad now.
+
+[29:53] Uh I have a question about uh pressure canning. I've been pressure pressure canning soup. Um and everything that I've read says you can't have pressure can anything that's been pre-thickened with flour and you can't do noodles. Uh so I'm wondering why that's the case, and uh if so, how do how do they get those sort of deliciously overcooked noodles in in your you know can of candles like a noodle? Huh, that's a good question.
+
+[30:20] Um presumably what's happening is is you're taking the um starch well uh because you know like you cook starch, it absorbs stuff, there's a maximum thickness, right? And then after you reach that maximum thickness, then you get viscosity breakdown as you totally disintegrate the kind of starch, right? And so that's why, you know, if you look at a starch thing, that's what'll happen. So presumably they're saying that it'll reduce the thickening. Nothing terrible is gonna happen.
+
+[30:47] Have you tried it? No, I have not tried it yet. I mean, I would obviously, you know, I'm sure they like uh they must just get the water balance exactly right, throw the pasta in and then have it like all absorb and come out, you know, because come out like right where they want it. You know what I'm saying? Like the same way that like beans are so highly tweaked out that you know they they know exactly how long they want their pre soaked, they know they know exactly everything.
+
+[31:16] You know what I mean? And so that they they put 'em in the in they know that they know the pH of their water, they know the salt content, they know everything. You know what I mean? And so they load them into those cans and they come out perfect almost every single time. So there's gotta be some trick with uh with the with the pastas.
+
+[31:33] But the pastas are pretty they're pretty I mean soft. I mean like I haven't had a spaghetti o in a long time, but they're pretty soft soft. You know yeah, oh yeah. No, they're they're they're they're really soft and they're not necessarily ideal, but for some reason I sort of love them. Yeah, you know, also what if you stuck only with pastas stats?
+
+[31:53] What's the shape of pasta that's shaped like a rice grain, it's real thick? Oh, orzo or something? Yeah, yeah. Like something like that, I think would hold up a lot better, or like what's the one that's like a really thick square that's like you know what I'm talking about? They're like thick squares, and they're meant for soups, but they're like they're like pasta little bricklets.
+
+[32:12] Those things would hold up. I think things that I think thicker pastas are gonna like obviously stand up because they'll it's gonna take longer for the inside to turn to complete mush. The outside will turn to complete mush. As for thickening, like thickened mixes with flour, I'm sure it's just a matter of they won't be as thick when it comes out. You're not gonna get poisoned, you know what I mean?
+
+[32:33] Sure. Yeah, I mean, some of the things that I've read have said that it that it it does increase the botulism risk because it like slows the the heating through the the jar. Um, good point. Yeah. That's interesting.
+
+[32:47] Yeah. But that's okay. I don't know is there any data? In other words, like the people who say that, uh did they say this. In nineteen sixty-five, a family of four cooked soup with starch in it, and they died.
+
+[33:05] You know what I mean? Because that's like that's what you need to say, because the fact of the matter is, there's not there's nothing in canning that says please measure the viscosity of your ingredients, right? Right. I I could take I could take an entire brick of pork, slam it into a can, and like and like follow the freaking canning procedures, and and I'm okay. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[33:26] Yeah. So like off the top of my head, I just don't believe I don't believe it. But I mean, I see what they're saying that you're in inhibiting the convective forces that's going on. But like in the absence of uh some data where someone followed good canning procedure, right? And maybe you have to increase the time.
+
+[33:46] I mean it's been a long time since I've looked at canning procedures, but like maybe for something that's not a lot of liquid you have different things. But uh I just say I doubt it from a safety standpoint down there. Okay. Yeah, that that's kind of what I was thinking in uh I'll know. Yeah.
+
+[34:02] Alright, cool. Let us know what happens. Pick up the line. All right, so we're uh sorry, should we go to a break? Or do we have a no no let's let's we're gonna this is the home stretch here.
+
+[34:10] Oh yeah? Yeah. We're just we're ripping through. Who's the sponsor? It's Kane Vineyard and Winery.
+
+[34:15] Um I was gonna put an ad in later, but I will say that Chris from Kane is is a really awesome dude. Great nap of winery. Yeah. Um lot of a lot of interesting stuff. I do have another caller if we want to take that.
+
+[34:24] Yeah, sure, caller, you're on the air. What they hung up as soon as I picked up. Um keep them moving. Man, maybe they were yeah, too bad. Sorry, caller.
+
+[34:33] Uh so you've had the wine, it's good? It is, yeah. I've had I had uh his couvet. Do you know who's never had the wine? Uh you?
+
+[34:40] Yeah, Nastasia. Have you had the wine? No. Where's the wine? Ooh, Erica's in here and she visited the winery.
+
+[34:47] Well, Stas, have you missed have you visited the winery? Nope. I'll tell you something here's something does Nastasia does not hate. Wine, visiting wineries. Drinking wine.
+
+[34:57] Drinking wine. I don't know. Do you like visiting wineries or you just want the wine? Are you like my stepfather? He doesn't care about he doesn't want to talk about fishing, he just wants to fish.
+
+[35:05] Doesn't care, doesn't want to talk about wine skills. You? Me? I mean, wineries can be pretty, but like, yeah, I like the drinking the wine. What are your favorite wines?
+
+[35:16] I don't really like being in Napa because it's hot as hell. Like, well, obviously, Stas. I really don't know enough. Stas has got to be like Nebbiola. No, style.
+
+[35:24] Style. Champagne. Alright. See? Love that.
+
+[35:28] Love that. So if you're at a restaurant and you open the wine list, like where do where do the two of you go? Well, it depends on what you're doing. No. I mean, yeah, what do we, what am I eating?
+
+[35:36] I don't know. A lot depends on what I'm eating. It wasn't a fully formed question. It's just like, what's the temperature outside and what am I eating? And and how much money does the person who's buying dinner for me have?
+
+[35:46] Right. Like, so if the person, if the person buying dinner has a non-finite amount of money, I I start out the meal with a glass of vintage champagne because if they have that much money. No, but like, and then like like let's say we're Italian. I like, I like to have if you can call a head and the person has infinite money, they open a bottle of Amaroni, like a really nice old amaroni, let it air out for you. I'm a fan of amaroni.
+
+[36:13] You know? I I'm a very simple, like my in other words, like I I don't I'm not saying, you know, I'm not like out there on a limb. Like, I like stuff that everyone likes. I like Barollos, I like amaronies, I like champagne, I like, you know, I hey people, like, I don't want to have a big American wine all the time, but I enjoy that like, you know, 90s style big big butt like US Infandel. Like, I love that stuff.
+
+[36:37] You know what I mean? I I like everything. I like everything if it's good. What about you, Stas? If it's good, uh, I like it.
+
+[36:44] Okay. Uh Jared wrote in about uh orange water, orange flower water. I've never thought about orange flower water. Here's what he says. Lately I've been enjoying the addition of orange blossom water to my daily tea uh so much that I've been running through it at about a cup per day.
+
+[37:02] A cup of orange flour water? That's a lot of orange flour. That's a lot of freaking orange flowers. A lot. It's become rather costly habit.
+
+[37:10] I'm wondering if there's a more cost effective way to simulate the pleasant aroma in my beverages, maybe through the use of essential oils. Would that work? As far as I know, oil and water don't play well together, so I'm hoping you provide a way to emulsify the two that won't drastically change the viscosity of the water. For dietary reasons, I'd rather not use alcohol or sugar like substances. Fats uh and acids are okay.
+
+[37:34] Jared and Vancouver. Well, yeah, gum arabic is the is what you want to use. You typically uh I don't know why, but in soda formulations when people are using gum arabic, they'll first you put the gum arabic into water, and they literally they always like literally say add a drop of alcohol. Uh you know, or like a couple drops. And I don't know why.
+
+[37:54] I don't really know why, to be honest. The reason you use gum arabic is because the susp the it it dilutes well, the suspension dilutes well. So then that's how you typically emulsify uh oils like oil, like if you were doing a cola like cinnamon oil or or uh you know uh citrus oils. And you can look up on Art of the Drink, Darcy O'Neill on Art of the Drink. It's hard to search for it, but you can find it.
+
+[38:17] Has something on on uh putting uh uh essential oils for sodas with gum arabic, and if you look up that uh article, that blog article um and the art of the drink, you can see the basic uh procedure for suspending oils into emulsions. But I don't know that orange flour essential oil, because I haven't even seen that. I've seen orange essential uh essential oil. Do they make the essential oil of the flour too? I don't know.
+
+[38:42] But that's the way to do it. So you should uh write in and tell us what's going on. Okay. I.e. tell us if it works.
+
+[38:49] Um, we got a lot to get to. Okay. And you got five minutes. Okay. Chris wrote in.
+
+[38:55] Uh, thanks again for uh the show. They wrote into uh hey Anastasia, Dave, and Jack. Uh I'd love to hear your thoughts and lessons on food in China as well as developing cooking products in China, i.e., what it's like to develop cooking products in China. Stas, what's it like? Not fun.
+
+[39:10] Hard. Hard. I mean, look, if we're uh like if I'll let you know when the next product is ready to come out exactly how hard it is. Um, but it it's challenging in ways that I didn't expect it to be challenging. It's simpler in ways that I thought it was gonna be more challenging, but it's very challenging in ways that I didn't um expect uh in terms of yeah, it's just really hard.
+
+[39:38] Uh but you know, again, I don't know. I probably shouldn't go too much into depth on that, right? Stas is shaking her head, she's giving me the shut up shake uh of of her head. Um but on food, I mean I was you know, I was mainly in Shenzhen. Shenzhen's interesting because people from all over you know China come to Shenzhen to work.
+
+[39:58] Um, but the local uh food, you know, is you know, from that kind of Canton area, so it's very not spicy. Um is that even an English? It's not spicy. Uh I had a lot of steamed uh seafood, and yes, they really freaking like crunchy just killed fish there, which is totally antithetical to like the way we normally eat fish. I had like a whole bunch of steamed, you know, different species of carp that uh were all extremely uh crunchy.
+
+[40:37] But love the fresh they love the f the fresh killed. I mean it's not necessarily my cup of tea but you know there you have it. The um did I talk about the mantis shrimp here? I did, right? Yeah.
+
+[40:48] Um anyway, so like we I I I should think more. I should try to condense in my mind more of the lessons uh I I learned on food there so I can uh come back. But anyway here's another one. I've recently s uh from you. I've recently started doing dark chocolate in a wet grinder.
+
+[41:01] See I told you wet grinders are gonna come back. Uh with nibs and sugar. I'd love to hear about your tips, tricks and riffs on chocolate making. Well don't make ketchup flavored chocolate which is what I started with because nobody I was the only guy that liked the ketchup flavored chocolate. Right?
+
+[41:16] You hated it? I do not like it. It was better than the mustard chocolate. Yeah. So the whole point that the the reason I started in the wet grinding thing was because I wanted to create the texture of chocolate, which is mainly a phenomenon of cocoa butter completely surrounding very very fine solids particles in the absence of liquid, right?
+
+[41:38] That's what it is. And so like I was trying to get different powders, uh very, very fine powders and I was pre-blitzing those things and putting in the cocoa butter, adjusting the sugar, adding some lecithin and hoping that it could turn into something that had that uh texture. But it's very hard because nothing can have kind of water in it. It's you know a nightmare that way. When we were making actual chocolate.
+
+[42:01] You know, I frankly learned from reading the Chocolate alchemy website, which is I think the first website on making your own chocolate uh at least it's the first one that I'd I had ever seen. Um so yeah, there you have it. Um and we would put the nibs through uh a champion grinder first to get them pre-ground, which worked very well. And then we would just uh you know, we would use uh I did we use confectioner sugar or what kind of sugar do we use? Do we not care?
+
+[42:28] I don't remember. I feel like we didn't care. Or did we blitz it? I don't remember. I probably I knowing me, I like tweak everything, so I probably use something fine, I don't know.
+
+[42:36] And then just let it run. But we'd have to let it run a long time. The question is like opening and shutting the lid, you have to keep it open so liquids don't condense because it warms up, but then you lose aroma, so it's all back and forth. But we would grind for days to get the texture right because you know the bigger grinders can do it quickly, and then you conch for however long you want. But we, you know, we couldn't do that.
+
+[42:55] So it was like a very long uh melange thing. It was days, several days, and you have to keep tasting it. Anyway, uh Aaron wrote in. We're basically at the end here. Oh, Aaron, I've totally solved your margarita problem.
+
+[43:07] We'll uh get to it next week. Uh I'll give you a hint. Just increase the simple syrup a little bit, increase the the lime. You need to double your lime and multiply your simple syrup by another or add another half ounce of simple syrup, but double your lime, and your alcohol number should come down. You can add the lime earlier uh and get it going, and you should be better.
+
+[43:26] But I can go into it uh in more detail next time. Uh Liza wrote in about the gaps diet, and we still haven't gotten to the freaking Thai basil question, preserving the Thai basil, but we will next time, I promise, on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore Radio.
+
+[43:57] You can email us questions at any time at info at Heritage Radio Network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Consider Bardwell Farm in Vermont, a producer of award-winning handmade cheese from Goat and Cow Milk. For more information, visit ConsiderBardwell Farm.com's coming to you live! We're still playing the music, it's alright, on Heritage Radio Network in Roberta Spizzeria, where in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hello.
+
+[0:34] We got uh Jack, Jackie Molecules, is uh sick today, like legitimately sick, stomach bug, not like hung over, right? And so today we have for the first time in the booth Dave, we're gonna call him Dave Id to keep him separately from me being Dave. Hey David. How's it going? Going alright.
+
+[0:52] If I if I'm Dave Idd, does that make you Dave Ego? Whoa. Like that. Like that. You know what the thing is, the thing about the ego in the id is that if some if you say someone has an ego, typically it means it's bad, but in the context of id, the ego's actually a good thing.
+
+[1:07] Yeah, absolutely. It's the one time it's good to be ego. Gotta have gotta have both. Yeah. Can't have the yin without the yang.
+
+[1:13] You're it all id. Me? Mm-hmm. Uh that's uh uh if since we're staying with uh psychological references here, that's what we like to call a projection. A projection.
+
+[1:25] Don't pull out psychological terms on someone that grew up with a shrink. I'm you know what I'm saying. I'm just repeating. My stepfather's a shrink, so it wasn't my uh assessment. No, anyway, like I say, projection.
+
+[1:36] She look, Jordana Rothman, friend of the show, friend in general, is just upset because I'm the only person that has been like, What are you doing? What just what's wrong with you? When she was shaking cocktails. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[1:51] And we have uh very, very happy special guest, not Peter Kim. Better than Peter Kim. Better than Peter Kim. We have uh Dax Arnold. Dax Arnold.
+
+[2:04] You might know him from his name is the name of our bar. Uh but he is in fact my son. So if you have any questions to ask my son, uh by because there's no school today. I don't know, president. Winter break.
+
+[2:20] Midwinter. Yeah, midwinter break. So if you have any questions for uh Nastasia for myself or for Dax, call them in to 718497-2128. That's 7184972128. Uh, you know what uh you do anything good over the weekends does?
+
+[2:35] I saw hockey games. Oh, really? My sister's friend plays for the Yale club team. The Bulldogs? Yeah.
+
+[2:43] Well, but not the real, the club. Oh, what do you mean? They don't play in the in the large where do they play? Uh somewhere in Long Island. How does a Yale of Yaelys play in Long Island?
+
+[2:57] Do they have to take a ferry across the uh they drove? Okay, people, for those of you that don't know the geography involved here, check this out. Yale is in Connecticut in a town called New Haven. All right? Now, uh, right next to New Haven is a body of water called the Long Island Sound.
+
+[3:13] Now, Long Island comes by its name, honestly. It's like two hours long, three hours long to drive it, right? It's a long freaking island. It's like one of the longer islands attached to the United States of America, right? Long.
+
+[3:25] Anywho, so in order to get to in order to play hockey, bear in mind at Yale University, they have a very large, very famous ice hockey rank known as reserved for the non-club. Reserved? They don't play 100% of the time. I don't know. Anyway, so you have to drive from New Haven all the way down to New York City, which, you know, what is that, like an hour and a half, hour forty-five minutes?
+
+[3:44] Then fight your way through New York City traffic. Yeah, yeah. And you have to drive all the way back up to New Haven on the other side of the sound, and you can literally see across the sound there. Nightmare. Yeah.
+
+[4:01] Nightmare. But I loved hockey. That was my first game. Yeah? It was awesome.
+
+[4:05] Wait, your sister plays or your sister's buddy plays? My sister's buddy plays. You went all the way out to Long Island for your sister's buddy? Did they win? Yeah, they did.
+
+[4:14] Yeah? They did. Have you ever seen a game? Have you seen a game? Yeah.
+
+[4:17] Do you like it? Yeah, I was doing it. All the fighting? Yeah. Well, there wasn't too much fighting to do I saw.
+
+[4:22] Blood on the ice? No blood on the ice, but lots of pounding. Just pounding. Like fist pounding? Like slamming guys against the wall.
+
+[4:29] Did anyone throw the gloves off and throw a punch? Yeah. Okay, but no blood? No blood. Kind of sis.
+
+[4:34] Well, they still had their helmets on. Oh. Yeah. Uh yeah, I see. I see.
+
+[4:40] Well, it's nice to see that even in the Ivy Leagues, people still resort to uh little fists. Well, there was uh Yale versus Suffolk County. So who started the fights? Uh the staying cheerleader stereotypes. Well, Suffolk County, so it was an away game.
+
+[4:57] They went to Long Island because it's an away game in Long Island. Well no, the championships were in Long Island. Oh, this is the championship. Yeah. Champion chip game.
+
+[5:05] Nice. Did you cook any food over the weekend? Uh no. No. I didn't.
+
+[5:11] No. Did you? Yeah, so it was uh, you know, it was ridiculously cold here. It wasn't that cold. It was cold on Saturday night.
+
+[5:19] It was cold, but it wasn't like Mayor de Blasio, or the mayor of our fine city of New York, he's like, Don't go outside if you don't need he doesn't talk like that. Don't go outside if you don't need to. It's so cold. You breathe in your nose, your nose is gonna crack off. Don't do it.
+
+[5:29] Well, we were up, like, you know, we were going outside. Dax was freaking sledding in that weather. On Saturday night? Yeah. Wow.
+
+[5:39] Yeah. Throwing tomahawks. Dax now, you know, thanks to you, Nastasia. Has throwing tomahawks, and I have to say he's pretty good at it. Really?
+
+[5:46] Yeah, it's fun. Nice. What do you throw them at? Dead cheese. Oh.
+
+[5:49] Yeah. Anyways, so it was too cold to uh cook outside. So we did a uh we we have the that wood burning stove, but you can take the top off the wood-burning stove and cook in it. So we just did burger burgers inside the wood burning stove. That was your anniversary too.
+
+[6:03] Well it was Valentine's Day, which is the anniversary of me going out with my wife. 24 years. 24 years. And uh I also also uh we got a new Cuisinard pressure cooker, and I hacked it. I hacked it to get back up to the pressure.
+
+[6:16] I tested it, did some sweet sweet Humming eggs. Uh maybe I'll post out the picture of that. For those of you that don't know, the Cuisinard Pressure Cooker is awesome for a bunch of reasons because you don't have to use a burner. It like once it's done timing, it like automatically turns itself off into keep warm. You can uh you know, you don't have to adjust temperatures all the time because it just goes to the temperature you want.
+
+[6:40] I mean, really, it's nice to use, except for the fact that it's not set up to to go to 15 PSI, and I want everything. Oh, Booker, my other son, is just telling me he's gonna use the bathroom. He literally he walked in, looked in some lady's face at the restaurant, and screamed through the window, bathroom. It started pointing. The lady's like, I don't need to know if you're going to the bathroom or not.
+
+[7:02] She's like, totally, this lady's totally confused. She's also this lady, it's first of all, how cold if it's fifty, it's fifty-five degrees in Brooklyn today, all right? 55 degrees here in the studio in Brooklyn. This lady is wearing her like her knockoff freaking uh Canada Goose coat. I think she can hear you.
+
+[7:14] Well, she's sitting now whatever. That means she's listening? Hey, we have a caller on the line, you guys want to take it. All right, cool. Hold on one bit.
+
+[7:27] So the pressure cooker, all you need to do is uh add one resistor to it. It's very simple. Then it gets up to 15 PSI and it's pretty genius thing. You can get it for under 100 bucks. Okay, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[7:36] Hello, caller. Wow, what a deep voice. Oh, nice. Yeah, well, you know, gotta save it, gotta save it up. But not like Phil Bravo, other friend of the show who gets always has a deep voice.
+
+[7:47] We have to save up to use it. What's up? Um I'm I'm having some trouble hearing you there. Uh okay, maybe it's better now. Uh I'm calling about uh Solov Gonderma, the uh stretchy ice cream.
+
+[7:59] Very good. Um I read all the uh the posts on blog um about it, and um I want to make it. I haven't made it yet, but I was kind of just wondering how things kind of turned out in the end there. Because it seemed like um you uh originally tried to make it like uh Kent Kirschbaum and Ariel Johnson did with uh what is it, the conjac. And then that didn't work out so well, and then you you use potato ultimately, right?
+
+[8:25] Well, okay, so there's a bunch of different there's a bunch of different ways to to get that that texture. So the reason um and I forget, I think it's a glucomanin, right? So the the selep uh Don Derma, the the orchid like root powder, is uh a glucoman and conjac. It's either gluco or galacto. I think it's gluco.
+
+[8:45] Conjac is a similar uh glucoman, and so I think that they did that and one other um one other thing that they added to it, and they were able to get something that is the texture of uh Celep Don Derma. Now uh back when I did all those posts, I had not yet been to Turkey. I have now since been to Turkey, so I've had I've had the real thing, so I have a better kind of uh uh uh perspective on it. They say their conjac thing works. I don't know whether it was my conjac or what, but I'm sure that their specifications work.
+
+[9:16] The potato makes a similar texture, however, it's pretty finicky. You have to use like you know, regular standard US potatoes, they have to be cooked and cooled the way that uh it it's said, and then it doesn't last for a long time. In other words, the stretchiness, you can't save it for a while. And in fact, I noticed I brought some uh of the Selepton Derma, the real stuff back from Turkey in uh in a dry ice thing, and it in fact does not keep it stretchiness either. You have to re-beat it right before you eat it to get the kind of stretchiness back.
+
+[9:48] But um the the recipe that I actually use when I really want that texture is the gel-an gum plus guar gum recipe that is uh also on the blog. And you don't have to do like make it tea flavored or any of the other stuff like I did on the blog, but that that gel-an guar is pretty sweet, and you can light that stuff on fire, which is always nice. Um the potato, the potato is a little more finicky. I tried to make it once in uh South America using like a local potato variety that was more of like uh uh it wasn't as fluffy as a as uh as like you know, like a russet burbank, and it did not work. And then um, yeah, and plus even here with the potatoes that I know work, I'm pretty sure I used russets and not Yukons, but we'll have to go back and look at the post.
+
+[10:36] But then it it's it's fit finicky in terms of time. It's a make with liquid nitrogen and eat, not spin and ice cream. By the way, none of these things are really ice cream machine friendly because they um they're stiff. You know what I mean? Like they're really the ones that we did were better with um they're better with uh my brain's fries does better with uh liquid nitrogen.
+
+[10:57] Or if you have a real ice cream machine, draw it soft because it's as it starts uh firming up that it gets uh really, really uh um stiff and chewy. So you could probably take it to kind of a soft stir thing and then kind of harden it and beat the crap out of it. But it's uh yeah, those are my suggestions. That's what I that's what I ended up staying on. But Kent and uh Ariel swear on the you know on five stacks of Bibles that the conjack is gonna give you the right texture.
+
+[11:23] I only tried it once or twice to be fair, so that's not really fair to the recipe. And I didn't follow theirs. I just made a conjack-based uh ice cream. Uh so I didn't follow their exact specs, so like I'm not gonna say anything one way or to the other, but they're good smart people, so if they're if they say the recipe worked, I'm sure it did. Okay, so you're saying that Gillann plus uh guar recipe should should should yield pretty good results, and it won't have the issues with uh the starch, um what is it, uh retrogradation.
+
+[11:53] Definitely potato does. Right, exactly. Well, the thing with the starch is it's it's you need some exact amount of retrogradation, I think, to get it right, but it's just it's real finicky. The gel and guar is like bonehead simple, it always works, and those two but make sure you get the flavor-free guar. There's a couple places that have fra flavor free guar.
+
+[12:12] I think Modernist Pantry sells a flavor free guar. And by the way, they they texted me, Monarch's Pantry, they have Novo shaped back. So all of you guys that want to use uh pectin methyl estraase to make vegetables firmer without having to do uh, you know, uh use calcium hydroxide or any of those nasty stuff, it's back it's back online there. I want to go with the conject, is that the same stuff I can get at the Japanese market, or do I have to go through uh a source where I might get it get a little bit more of a pure product? I don't know.
+
+[12:40] That's the thing, man. I think I use the stuff that you just get. I mean the stuff like so there's the stuff that comes in the kind of like that's like a a solid that you have to re-pulverize. And I think that that's what I used with no luck. I'm sure Kent and uh Ariel used like some form of like purified powdered uh stuff, but I I I use the stuff that you get at the market.
+
+[12:59] Which maybe that's why I didn't have luck, I don't know. So it's you know, I I I d I'm not sure. If their recipe specifies a certain kind, then I would you I would definitely use uh that, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, and so one more question about uh uh about you know um just beating it right before I serve it.
+
+[13:17] Um so in Turkey, don't they use like two metal sticks? I've kind of seen it. Uh but you know, you so you're saying I could either try to do it in the in the in the mixer or what was the other way? Well the mixer, remember the mixer is gonna start getting like it depends on how you do it, right? Like depends on what your chilling technology is.
+
+[13:38] But I mean the the best way is to is to beat the like if you get it hard, right? Like when uh Dax, you remember when I brought this stuff home from Turkey? Uh yeah. Yeah. And you remember the one time I serve it to you, it wasn't snap, and then I pulled it out of the freezer and I started hitting it with a rolling pin a bunch.
+
+[13:53] And then it got uh got the the that got that cool texture, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think it's any sort of thing, if you take it in a bowl and just literally like hammer the hell out of it with uh with a solid pin, or uh uh you know, because the problem is is that if you use a hunk of metal, unless the metal is cold, it's gonna start melting the stuff out on you, right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:12] Yeah. But you can get it pretty much most of the way there with a kitchen aid. Uh you just gotta be careful that you don't if you especially because I I when I when you make ice cream with a Kitchen Aid, I use the uh the beater that has the silicone little riblets on the side, and uh they can break when they're that much force. But you know, just don't use that much force. Okay.
+
+[14:32] Also, maybe I'll use a rolling pad. All right. All right, thanks, Dave. All right, tweet us on uh over and let us know uh what happened. You got it.
+
+[14:39] Celepton Derma. Did you ever like any of those ice cream stuff? No. You you don't like the texture, you didn't like the tea flavor? I like the potato one you made.
+
+[14:47] You like the potato one? Mm-hmm. Which is weird because that's the more polarizing flavor, potato ice cream. Yeah, I don't it polarizing. Good.
+
+[14:54] We didn't like the tea flavor or you didn't like the texture. This is what I'm trying to get. The texture. I said you didn't like the texture. Did you like the fact that we could light it on fire?
+
+[15:02] I once taught a class where literally it was a hydrocollege class, which by the way, I hate teaching. But I don't hate teaching it. It's just difficult to teach because unlike low temperature cooking, it's like there's so many different levels you have to teach to with it, right? And different people have different expectations of what they want. But yeah, yeah, Stas is going me, me, me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[15:21] Which is like, you know, she's basically calling me out as me, me, me, me, me. But um uh we had one where we taught it where literally all anyone wanted to do was light things on fire. Like, can you light that on fire? So literally we'd had to keep the torch next to the thing, and we they'd be like, we would make any sort of recipe and they're like, okay, light it on fire. And we would like light it on fire to see what happened.
+
+[15:41] That was actually kind of uh the one of my favorite ones of teaching that class. Were you there for that one? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:46] Yeah. We can it turns out you can light a lot more things on fire than you thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:51] Where'd Booker go? Oh, Booker just wanted to use the bathroom. I t I I invited him and Jen, by the way, my wife, to come on the radio show. Yeah, but Booker was like, no. And you know, if Booker was here, he if Booker was in this video.
+
+[16:04] Dad. Dad, why are you on the radio? Dad. Dad. All right.
+
+[16:09] Let's go through let's go so through some of the questions from a before. By the way, we have a question on Parmajan. Are we going to get uh Mark Ladner? Mark says he keeps calling. Why don't we call him?
+
+[16:20] Wouldn't that be easier? Uh yeah, but I don't know how to tell them his number. Oh, yeah, over the air. All right, have Mark call in one more time. We're gonna get a call in from Mark Ladner to answer a question from a listener, okay?
+
+[16:33] All right, David. Alright. So uh we had Liza. We had Liza write in uh last week and uh asked us this question, which I still don't know the answer to, but we'll talk about it anyway. Is it what do you think of the Gaps diet, G A P S uh diet, and would you ever would you ever try it?
+
+[16:53] Now uh the Gaps diet is a diet designed I mean I wouldn't try it, not me personally, but that's not really the question. The question is do I think it's efficacious or not? So it's a diet that's designed for um well here's the thing. Here's here's my issue with it. So if you go to the the Gaps uh website, it's run by a doctor who I don't know that much about.
+
+[17:16] But literally the the splash page of the website is like uh a road, you know those road signs like you get in the World War II movies where they point in all different directions, and it's like you know, Brussels one way and all that? It's like that, but with uh with a host of different maladies on it, right? And so the maladies include uh dyspraxia, which is you know, I think like uh uh movement disorders, right? Uh ADD, right? ADHD, which you know, are those really the same aren't those really kind of the same thing?
+
+[17:44] We got Mark on the line, whenever you guys are ready. All right, so you want to talk about gaps in a minute? Sure. I'll talk about gas in a minute. Hey Mark, how you doing?
+
+[17:56] Hello. We got we got Mark Ladner, uh chef of uh Del Posto, also uh gluten-free pasta maven of Pasta Flyer. What else you got what else you got going, Mark? Everything's great, Dave. Thanks for uh inviting me on to team cooking issues.
+
+[18:16] Yeah, nice. Well, we got a question that I thought, you know, we can talk about it, uh, you and I, uh and Nastasia, but uh I'll read you the question first. This is right up your alley. This is the kind of problem that you have to think about uh a lot. Although actually, does he make this style of pasta?
+
+[18:31] Did you even read the question, Silas? I ran it to him. Okay. So the so the listeners know, this is from um Thomas. Fan of the show, uh, but I still have an unanswered question, even though I've listened to uh most of the show.
+
+[18:44] Sometimes I will try to make myself some buttered noodles as a quick meal, but when I add the uh Parmigiano cheese, it wants to clump up on me. I cook with real parm, aged two years, if that makes a difference. I was kind of hoping to get a Mornay sauce, but as a quick pan sauce instead. Any tips? I thought maybe I could uh use a stabilizer to keep the cheese from clumping uh and just a gooey instead of clumping.
+
+[19:07] Any advice on what's going on here would be greatly appreciated. Now my feeling is there's not enough liquid in the sauce he's trying to make to ever stop it from clumping because he's not pre-mixing the gr the parmesan with a liquid or adding it at the end when it's not getting mixed. But why don't you why don't you talk about the the generalities here? It sounds like just fat fat on fat, which is course is gonna clump. I think the first thing to uh to recognize is that most often people tend to either overcook their dry pasta or undercook their fresh fresh pasta.
+
+[19:42] Uh especially undercooked fresh pasta has a tendency to clump up because it wants to continue to take moisture from somewhere. Ah yeah okay because but here's the thing so we're what what we're honing in on here is that it's m moisture like moisture content is the main issue that that this person's got wrong right yes all right I would say so I would say so. So so go ahead so explain explain the two different the two different things. So undercooking fresh pasta means it's going to absorb more water meaning it's not going to have enough water to form any sort of stable sauce or emulsion and what's the what's the on the flip side with the with the dry pasta? With the dry pasta um I mean there's a tendency that maybe the pasta itself could start to break down and thicken the sauce.
+
+[20:31] Hmm and so absor like like trap more water because the pasta starch is breaking down you think the surface area. Yeah. I mean what do you in other words if you want to do what this person wants to do what would you do? Would you pre-blend egg yolks and parmesan with a little bit of liquid before you toss it in the sauce if you wanted to add it early and get something that kind of creamy? Yeah what what I would tend to do like uh for example what we what we do at the post though is we tend to like to use incredibly salty water.
+
+[21:02] I wouldn't go so far as to say seawater salty, but on uh salinity reading refractometer, we generally uh record it at between 10 and 10 and 12 PPT. Parts per thousand? 10 and 12. I'd have to look up that. So that's that's one one in 1.2%.
+
+[21:24] Yes. Okay. So like so that would have a tendency to be too salty if you were then to try to add some of that water to your pasta, especially if it was uh you know combined with uh you know further reduction. Right. All right.
+
+[21:44] Well what but what that's like so I prefer to use either like a clean neutral stock or broth or just just tap water. All right. And then what so like what would you do? You'd say to make the pre-mix of the cheese, what would you do to toss with it? What would you well how would you go about it?
+
+[22:00] Uh you would add uh once you add the pan, once you add the pasta to the pan, which we're assuming already has maybe perhaps a tablespoon of I guess it depends on the the portion size. I'm speaking uh specifically for a hundred gram or three and a half ounce portion of pasta. So that would be like a single portion. So if you were to take a 10-inch uh saute pan and you were to melt uh you know a tablespoon of butter, uh we also like to use an equal part, an equal measure extra virgin olive oil, which helps keep it uh fluid. All right, and then and then maybe uh you know, a tablespoon or two of tap water to the pasta while it's in the pan.
+
+[22:49] So now you have the butter, the melted butter, the olive oil, and the water, and you're trying to bring that to a simmer with the pasta. And then you add the cheese once it's simmered up? The cheese, the the thing with the cheese is uh it sounds like he's using the right stuff. To your old Parmesan, it's fantastic. Anything between pretty much nine months and two years would be would be fine.
+
+[23:13] You'd it'd be hard to find anything much older than that, anyways, at a most uh grocery store. Right. Um it's better to buy a block rather than pre-graded, which tends to be dry, and then has reduced uh emulsifying capability. Right. But when we okay, go ahead.
+
+[23:32] When so is you have this in a pan. You should never be adding the cheese over the heat because it has a tendency to string out then and uh and and and cook to the bottom of the of the pan. Okay. Now once you're adding the cheese, it should always be off the fire. Right.
+
+[23:49] So but if it's clumping, you think what what what are your thoughts on okay? Let's say they're doing it like home home style. They're gonna serve an entire pound of pasta in a bowl, right? Would would you ever consider throwing the hot the hot butter in the in the bottom of the of the bowl with the oil, tossing that and then pre-blending the cheese with the liquid to make sure that the cheese was able to form kind of a stable kind of a situation? Blend the cheese and the liquid in a blender and then pour it over and toss, or no?
+
+[24:19] Oh good. Um yeah, I suppose you could like like he had mentioned a mornay sauce. Yeah, but for that you need an egg yolk anyway, right? An egg yolk is fine, but I definitely wouldn't be adding any flour. No, yeah, no, no, no.
+
+[24:31] But like would you add in other words? But you'd pre-blend all of those liquids before you you'd toss it with the oil first, then pre-blend the liquids. But you need the the bottom line is you need water because if there's only fat, you can't have any sort of it, it's gonna just clump into itself. The solids will clump and there's no there's no liquid to hold it, right? Yes.
+
+[24:50] There's traditional carbonara techniques where you would take water and a and egg and and uh pepper and cheese and mix that separately before adding it to the pasta. Yeah, that I used to make that all the time. That's the only way I would ever make that stuff. But if but if he doesn't want to egg yolk it, you're saying just make sure you add enough water so that the cheese doesn't clump up when you're doing it. But if you use hyper salty water, which is gonna make the pasta taste good, don't add that because that's gonna be too salty.
+
+[25:17] Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. And I had one other thing with it.
+
+[25:21] What was this, Daz? With the with the with the parmesan, with the with the with the pasta? I don't know. I can't think of it. Do you think it you think it's ever gonna be as good?
+
+[25:28] Big bull family style? Probably, right? Why not? Do you ever use the you ever use the cooking pot as a heater for the bowl when you put the pasta into it? Yes.
+
+[25:38] Yeah. Yeah. All right. There we go. All right.
+
+[25:42] Anything else to add to help this person from stringing out, or are we uh are we uh are we good? Do we give them everything they need? I would not use a st I would not use a stabilizer. Add it back to the fire once you add the cheese. Right.
+
+[25:51] I would not use a stabilizer. You know what I'm saying? I would not try to that's it's just not necessary. And it won't even help because what your main problem here is that you don't have enough liquid, and if you don't have enough liquid, the stabilizer's gonna be useless to you. I'm also a big fan of adding uh a like uh a decent amount afterwards on the top along with the pepper.
+
+[26:11] Yeah, do you like that or hate that? Yes, I do. I do, I like that. And pe pepper on that sucker too, right? Of course.
+
+[26:18] Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what? Am I bad, Mark? Because I've gotten to a point where it's almost impossible for me to eat pasta without crushed red pepper at home.
+
+[26:25] I mean, when I'm out at a restaurant, I don't ask for it if it wasn't intended with the pasta. Like I would never adult postal being like go, hey, what's the crushed red pepper with this? Come on. You know what I mean? But I mean at home, I can't eat freaking pasta without crushed red pepper.
+
+[26:38] Does that make me a bad man? Uh no, it makes you nostasi a little bit. Uh all right, Mark. Thanks so much for calling in. Yeah, Helen.
+
+[26:51] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we're the team that always unscrews the uh crushed red pepper. Mark, if you ever have some sort of quick service as crushed red pepper, I know you were gonna get the correct shaker for the crushed red pepper and not this abomination that's staring me at the face through the window here at Roberta's Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're working on that.
+
+[27:11] Thanks so much for uh inviting me on your show. Oh thanks, thanks for thanks for thanks for coming on. All right. All right, take care, guys. All right.
+
+[27:19] You too. Speaking of quick serve, you see Roberta's has the the frozen pizza now? Have you seen it in the aisles? I've not seen it now. What store do they sell it in?
+
+[27:27] I saw it at Food Import, and now it no, not Food Emporium. Food key food now. Key food, because food and pouring went out of business. Because food emporium was the same thing as a A and P. A and P went out of business.
+
+[27:38] You don't seem to you're not you're not broken up by it. No, I'm sad. I'm sad. It's real sad. That's like my uh so my my stepfather, uh Gerard, his dad used to be like butcher to the mafia in in Boston.
+
+[27:52] And so uh I forget they had to go to like one of the main dons in Boston, the the daughter who is a nurse, died of in quotes, asthma, right? And so, you know, I think Gerard or you know went to the funeral and they had one of those giant goons, and he's like, Oh man, it's such a shame. And the guy goes, Yeah, real sad. And that's it. Like, you know what I mean?
+
+[28:13] Like you imagine, you can picture it, can't you? Yeah. Yeah, real sad. Dead face. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:19] Total dead face. Alright, listen, you want to take a uh quick commercial break, David, come back with some more cooking issues? Yeah, let's do it. We'll do. All right.
+
+[28:42] And this one is Journey from Lime Rock by the Slow Roasters. We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member, Consider Bardwell. 300 acre Consider Bardwell Farm was the first cheesemaking co-op in Vermont, founded in 1864 by Consider Stebbins Bardwell himself. A century later, Angela Miller, Russell Glover, and Chris Gray are revitalizing the tradition. Their cheeses are made by hand in small batches from whole, fresh milk that is antibiotic and hormone free.
+
+[29:25] Only microbial rennet is used in their cheesemaking. All cheeses are aged on the farm in their extensive system of caves. To learn more or purchase cheese, visit ConsiderBardwell.com. To learn more about becoming a business member, email us info at heritage radio network.org. And we are back.
+
+[29:46] Alright. So we were talking about before uh the caller and before Mark came on, we were talking about the GAPS diet. Gaps diet. All right. Now, now uh, it stands for uh gut and psychology syndrome, right?
+
+[29:59] And it's got the road sign, and it's got it's a natural treatment for dyspraxia, which we were talking about is like you know, uh problems with uh issues with uh muscular control movement. Uh ADD and ADHD, which are are those actually different? One is human. No, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and no, and attention deficit disorder. This is the same thing.
+
+[30:19] It doesn't really deserve two signs. Someone call me in if I'm wrong, but like I've been called both of those things my whole life, and so I don't really see that there's much of a distinction. Schizophrenia is on that same sign, depression on the other side of that same sign, dyslexia and autism. So what we're talking here is what we say a broadband shotgun of uh stuff that they're trying to fix with this diet. Schizophrenia.
+
+[30:41] First, first of all, like right off the bat, right off the bat. Now, I don't want to tread on anyone's, I don't want to poop on anyone's parade too hard here, but right. Anytime I see someone hitting this broad a spectrum of things with with one thing, and I'm just gonna say this because it's you know, I have the same issue in my family, like all over the place, so like you know, I'm not talking out of school here. Anytime you have a situation where you have a parent with a child and they're focused on some sort of issue that they want to kind of remedy and they're looking for any kind of remedy possible, right? Uh, you get in these situations that have a lot of um, and again, I don't know anything about it, but a lot of bells start ringing in my head when I start seeing signs like this that they say that they can fix this.
+
+[31:26] Now, this is look, for instance, I'll read the I'll read the spiel. The GAPS diet was derived from the specific carbohydrate diet, S C D, created by Dr. Sidney Valentine Haas. I wonder whether they're related to the egg-coloring people. Oh, it's pause.
+
+[31:44] Haas. I like anything with two A's though. You like that? The two A's? Yeah.
+
+[31:43] Haas. To create to naturally treat chronic inflammator inflammatory conditions in the digestive tract as a result of damaged gut lining. Now that's this can happen, right? You know. SCD grained great popularity after a mother, Elaine Gottshaw, heated her own child of ulcerative colitis and became an advocate for SED.
+
+[32:06] Elaine Gottshaw is the author of the popular book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle, Intestinal Health Through Diet. Now listen, there's been hundreds of years of people worried about how their intestines work and like having various crackpot like theories about like how what we eat is eating us from the inside or that stuff gets trapped in your intestines. Look, even today, Dax. Let me ask you a question, Dax. Did you see all the snacks at your house?
+
+[32:28] Yeah. That was not the question. I was gonna ask, but yes, that's very nice. Uh so how long does gum stay in your stomach when you swallow it? Uh again?
+
+[32:40] When you when you chew gum and you swallow it, what what happens to it? Um it goes down your throat. And then what? I don't know what happens after. How long do you think it's in your stomach for?
+
+[32:50] Um until you digest it? See, now Dax has not been poisoned. See, it's it maybe it's because he's my son he's like. Five years, it'll stay in your stomach for five years. Yeah, which is a load of garbage.
+
+[33:04] I mean, you don't digest it, you poop it out. You know, you're you can't digest it. It's synthetic now, and it's chicle anyway. You know, it's chiclay, it comes from the same tree. Anyway, but like uh my point being that like it used to be that they would say that you digest it forever, and this is all part of this kind of nonsense.
+
+[33:19] And then like people, there used to be people who would say that like everything is caused by worms, and every time you poop something out, they you would yeah, whatever, it's a nightmare. Uh so any time someone says that they're gonna link your brain health through your intestinal system. This goes back also Sylvester Graham was huge on this. So there's a like a it's a lot of weirdness involved with like linking up like your intestinal health with your brain health. Now, there's probably like some truth.
+
+[33:48] I mean, we're all interconnected system, we're some interconnected system, but huge bells go off in my head. What about you, Stas? It makes you nervous. Okay, look. Through years of research and clinical experience, this is a different person now.
+
+[33:58] Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride, okay, adjusted her protocol to fit the individual healthcare need of her patient suffering from a variety of intestinal and neurological conditions as a result of an imbalanced bacterial ecosystem within the GI tract. The GAPS diet focus on removing foods that are difficult to digest and damaging the gut flora and replacing them with nutrient-dense foods to give the intestinal lining a chance to heal and seal. Now, I read more of like the the the outline and everything, and like I said, I haven't read any studies based on it. I don't know if if she has any studies based on it, or if there are any studies based on it.
+
+[34:33] But it has the ring of 19th century reformers craziness, like all like smacking of like you know, auto intoxication, which is another thing people used to say, uh degeneration of your insight. Now, this is not to say, look, for instance, it is a well-known fact that uh that there's a l-there's a group of people on the autistic spectrum who have huge GI problems, right? Like huge. It's a it's actually like a really big issue. So maybe there's some link, but I doubt that like fixing the GI thing is what is ha causing the brain condition to to happen.
+
+[35:08] It just the whole thing seems kind of nutty to me, that's all. So uh I tend to stay away from things like that until somebody proves uh that they work. And anything that is supposed to cure that many disparate things just makes me a little bit, you know. A little bit what? That's what my friend Phil does.
+
+[35:24] He tries all these diets to help with his brain stuff. Yeah, and that's that's what's wrong with America, right? I'm not eating meat. Now I'm not eating this, now I'm not drinking beer. And and every and every day, is he still Phil?
+
+[35:36] Does his fillness change? Does this does his innate fillness change? Now look, there's another thing too, right? I think that like uh any time that you think something works, there's like it helps you to work. I mean, if you think it's gonna work, it probably will help you to work a little bit, right?
+
+[35:50] I mean the the mind is a crazy is a crazy awesome thing. So if you're convinced it's gonna work, uh maybe it will. Who knows? Um what do you think? I disagreed with you.
+
+[36:04] Well, you can't shake your head because people can't see that on the radio. All right. What do you think, Dax? What do you think about uh crazy diets? Um are bad, some because people think they need it, but sometimes they don't.
+
+[36:17] No, they never do. Well, some people need to lose the weight though. They eat crap. Do you know what the diet? You know what the most effective way to for Dax, are we allowed to say junk food in our house?
+
+[36:28] No. No. No, you can eat is there a lot of junk food in your cabinets. Nastasia left a lot of junk food. Now, Dax, we're gonna have this out now.
+
+[36:36] That this has nothing to do with cooking, sorry people, but we're all in the same room. So some of the pe Nastasia stayed at my house last week, two weeks ago, two weeks ago, right? She said to me that somebody who shall remain nameless, but it's Jordana Rothman, wanted to light the fireworks that we had at the house that were specifically Dax's. They weren't even mine to give. They were Dax's fireworks, right?
+
+[36:59] And job down your tree. Which tree did they want to chop down? The one that you look like you're gonna hit when you're on the zip line. Yeah, you don't first of all, even if she wanted to, that those guys don't know how to chop down trees. They're New York City people.
+
+[37:10] Whatever. My point is, did you in fact light the Wolfpack firecrackers? No. Where are the Wolfpack firecrackers, Nastash? We moved them all on the table to the hockey table.
+
+[37:21] No, what is it? No, I wouldn't have to be a big thing. The Chinese New Year firecrackers. The one that looked like a belt of bullets? Mmm.
+
+[37:30] Nastasia. You know what I think happened, people? Maybe now it's a good thing. I think Nastasia came up on her dirt bag buddies, saw them lighting the fireworks, someone's like, What are you doing? Those aren't yours, are you crazy?
+
+[37:43] And they stopped after they'd already litten the wolf packs. Because that's what I would have done. I swear to you. I would have liked to have seen it. I've never seen this thing.
+
+[37:51] Someone she took it home. We have to go to but all I'm saying is we now have to go to the great state of Pennsylvania to get more firecrackers. Or um New Hampshire. New Hampshire does not allow firecrackers. They sell them.
+
+[38:04] They don't. Where did you get them the last time? Pennsylvania. Yeah. Well no, but for 4th of July.
+
+[38:09] Ah no, no. That was New Hampshire. Here's the rules. For anyone out there who lives on the Eastern Sea board here where we have all these crazy rules that don't let you blow things up. And by the way, I was talking, like, here's the thing, right?
+
+[38:20] So like Dax is with his dirtbag buddy, uh Did you really think it was Jordana and curse her name this week? I didn't curse her name. I waited to talk to you on the radio about it. But like here's the thing. So it's like so when I was a kid, right?
+
+[38:32] We would go to Canal Street, which is here in New York City. It's like, you know, now they sell fake purses and stuff, but it used to be all uh like equipment and and BS martial arts stuff, right? So, you know, my family who would never let me have anything like firecrackers or bottle rockets. By the way, you used to be able to buy fire crackets crackers illegally in New York City before Giuliani was the mayor Dex, so you kind of missed out on that. And you used to be able to kind of blow stuff up in the city.
+
+[38:59] Like I on the High Line before it was a big park dax, I I would blow up giant balls of popcorn with like you know, black black powder explosions and stuff. I video, you've seen the videos of it. New York was a far different place back, you know. I think it's better now. I mean, I know uh you know, we didn't need all of like the weird like uh heroin addicts hanging out on the high line all the time, but whatever.
+
+[39:18] I'm just saying it's a different place. But uh Canal Street used to be able to go and and you buy your throwing stars, your butterfly knives. Remember the butterfly knives? No. Those are the what Bolly Song knives are the ones you have to flip around and you cut yourself whenever you try to use them, you're like pap.
+
+[39:32] You know, you never seen this? No. David, you know what I'm talking about, a butterfly knife, right? Uh yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's got the two handles and you go laggagga, nunchucks, yeah, right?
+
+[39:42] These are the kind of things that everyone wanted, but I wasn't allowed to have. So what do you do? You come into the city and you buy, you walk in, you're like, yeah, it's got the throwing stars, got the throwing stars. They would sell you the thing, but it's probably like the thing stats. They would sell you the throwing stars, and then you would hide them on your on your person, and then you show it home, and then when your parents went to work, you would start throwing the h the the throwing stars around.
+
+[40:00] That's how that's how you did it. My feeling is just say you can use these things just under my supervision. Isn't that safer? Yeah. Because that's are we are you gonna do something I so these throwing hatchets that he has?
+
+[40:14] Are you gonna do anything stupid with those hatchets? Because you know I'm watching, right? Yeah. Wait, you are gonna No, I know you're watching. Yeah, so you're not gonna do anything stupid, right?
+
+[40:21] No, I'm not gonna do anything stupid. But there's a new article that says you should just let kids do whatever, and when they cut themselves, they'll know not to ever do it again. But you don't want them to cut themselves. You don't. Well, you don't mind them cutting yourselves.
+
+[40:32] You don't want your kid dying. Yeah. Yeah, or getting crippled. Right. Or maimed.
+
+[40:37] Then you have to take care of it. Who wrote this article? This person with the article have kids, yeah. This person with they have kids. Did any of them die?
+
+[40:43] Yeah, well, why don't they go talk to someone? No, they it's like an anthropological thing of like what different tribes do around the world and how they raise kids. And how our society is so helicopter-y about every little thing. Well, look, I mean, I'm I'm all for letting the kid I that's what I'm saying to Dax all the time. It's like, you know, you don't have but of course, was it safe that when I was 12, 11 and 12, I was deep frying by myself?
+
+[41:03] No, but you're alive. But only by straight freaking luck. Yeah, no, but how many people actually what's the percentage that of kids that like die from stupid kids get hurt all the freaking time. That's like it's like my buddy. I had another buddy who uh was doing stupid stuff, and then he cracked his head open, got meningitis and lost hearing in his ear.
+
+[41:24] You want your kid to lose hearing in his ear because you because you weren't watching. What was he doing? Being a dumbass snowhead. You don't even know like what he was doing. I know what he was doing.
+
+[41:33] He was jumping off of rocks onto other rocks. Took a header onto a rock and cracked his skull. He's a smart kid. Ended up at your alma mater, Stanford. Maybe that made him even smarter.
+
+[41:47] You never know. Being definitely? Yeah. Whatever. All I'm saying is look, we need to strike a balance.
+
+[41:54] Yes. Yeah, whatever. Alright, I'm finally gonna answer some of these questions from before. Aaron Morgan writes in uh about margaritas. Now I answered this a little bit, but I'll go through it in uh in in excruciating detail for you folks.
+
+[42:06] A long time listener. Uh I have tried convincing all of my friends to listen in with mixed success. That means nobody wanted to listen to us, which you know what? It's fair. Uh I have memorized your phone number, but whenever I've never called in.
+
+[42:17] What? What the heck? 7184972128, call in. Right? I mean, if you've memorized it, just call in.
+
+[42:22] I can recite it to myself as long as I imitate Dave shouting into the microphone. I have recently by the way, that's the only way I can say it. Like I can't, like if you said what's the number of the radio show, I'd be like, I what would I have to open up my phone and then scream it and then type in as I go, otherwise I won't be able to do it. Remember there was like a period of like a year before I could remember what the number was, Daz? Yeah, then I made you.
+
+[42:41] I taught you to fish. What the hell are you talking about? I made you memorize it. Speaking of fishing, I cannot wait for shad season. Dax, you gonna go shad fishing with me?
+
+[42:50] Yeah. How many shad are we gonna catch? Tons. Tons, tons. We're gonna catch so much shad.
+
+[42:55] That one's in the river. What? You don't have a boat. You can go right to the bridge. You can fish right from the bridge.
+
+[43:01] And you can get like non-finite numbers of shad because they're going up there to die anyway. They're awesome. They taste so good. I'm gonna smoke the hell out of them. They're gonna be delicious.
+
+[43:11] Dax, are you all for this? Yeah. Yeah, they're delicious. They're oily and big. It's got a lot of bones.
+
+[43:17] Compared to like a herring, they're huge. They're like uh I'm holding my hands maybe like I think they're like a foot and a half or something like that. How big were the fillets we were cooking, Dax? They were like a foot long, the fillets? Around there, yeah.
+
+[43:28] Did you enjoy them? They were great. Yeah, see? See? Dax, by the way, Dax, on a scale of zero to a hundred, how picky are you?
+
+[43:37] I don't know. With zero being the most picky? Zero being the most picky. No, no, no, like where do you where would you place yourself? 45.
+
+[43:47] I don't know. I don't know, Dax. That's a little so we had a contest where everyone was trying to eat uh these like super like the ship brand mango pickle that I have. And Dax, did you chicken out or did you eat it? No, I ate it.
+
+[43:58] Remember? Oh, yeah, booker Chicken Down? Yeah. They're delicious. Your your friend Ethan.
+
+[43:59] Yeah, Ethan and I he was stone cold. He was stone cold Steve Pickle Eater right there. So Luffy Boston, yeah. Yeah. Well, pick it up.
+
+[44:10] Are they bad? They're delicious, but they're very extreme flavor. Extreme. Alright, back to the margaritas. Um I recently purchased uh Liquid Intelligence, the you know, my cocktail book, and I'm trying to convert your 7-Eleven style daiquiri recipe to a margarita.
+
+[44:26] Last time I tried the following, which was for two servings. Eight ounces of tequila at 40% ABV, 1.5 ounces of cointreau at 40% ABV, 1.5 ounces of simple syrup, eight and a half ounces of wooho woo ho water. Uh by the way, uh Dax, what do you like better? Hot Rod or Taladega Nights? Hot Rod.
+
+[44:49] Hmm. All right. I haven't seen either. You haven't seen Hot Rod? David, you seen Hot Rod?
+
+[44:53] Uh no. Do you have Netflix? I do. What is wrong with you? You tell me.
+
+[44:58] I don't know. Yeah. Go watch Hot Rod. Do you not like uh are you not a Sandberg fan? No, I just never, you know, never got around to it.
+
+[45:05] I know Shad though. There's a Shad Fest in Philly where I'm from. Really? Oh yeah. Do you enjoy Shad?
+
+[45:10] Of course I do. I love the oily fish. I'm Italian. Oh, there you go. That's the thing.
+
+[45:14] But like for years nobody would eat that, everyone was like, go the row, eat the row. The row is good as well. It's like anchovies. They get a better app, but they're great. Yeah, yeah, but they're delicious and basically cooked any which way.
+
+[45:25] You could smoke it, you can grill it, you could do anything to a shad. They're delicious. You've got to learn how to bone them. But listen, you gotta go watch uh do you know that show Eastbound and Down with that guy whose name is out of my head, the guy? Uh yeah, what's his name?
+
+[45:38] Kenny Powers or Yeah, yeah, something like that. Anyway, he has the funny like the funniest lines in Hot Rod. And so you have to see it though to get it. Anyway, whatever. I'll add it to my list.
+
+[45:49] Wait, you mean the guy, um with the trailer scene? Yeah, yeah, but don't ruin it for people. It's totally my hat. Anyway, uh you'll you'll get it after you watch it, people. Okay.
+
+[46:01] Uh Ziploc bag, put in freezer overnight. It's still not frozen, so then you added a one and a half ounces of lime juice that brought the ABV down, and it froze after three hours and blend. The texture is good, but the flavor was not limey enough. This reminds me of my professor of philosophy, Raymond Goyce in college, who who uh when I was asking him, he's like, Your ideas are good. Your writing is bad.
+
+[46:22] That's what he said. And it's so I had to wait until I had my uh my uh, you know, my wonderful wife who, you know, can edit me properly. Um texture was good, but the flavor was not limey enough for my uh Central American wife. Brokenhearted from my failure, I drank both servings myself. So what do you make your wife in its stead?
+
+[46:41] You made her a regular margarita or what? What does she have? Maybe she was so angry she walked out. Whoa, stas bringing the harsh. I like that.
+
+[46:48] Um what can I do to improve this recipe? And apparently your marriage. Uh I tested my freezer and it is an average of negative 14 C. That's not quite cold enough. I know this is probably not cold enough to freeze my cocktail before adding the lime.
+
+[47:03] Can I simply substitute lime juice for water? Won't my lime juice go all crappy on me overnight? What acidity level should I be looking for in this type of drink? I would love your insight on these problems. I'm totally up for more experiments.
+
+[47:13] Worst case scenario, I would just have to drink more double margaritas myself until I perfect the recipe. Uh Aaron Morgan, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. First of all, get your freezer down a little bit. You can probably change it uh a little bit, and there is zero advantage to having your freezer on anything but the coldest possible setting. Hear me?
+
+[47:30] Zero advantage. Anyone that any manufacturers out there do not allow people to set their freezer to anything but maximum cold. The only time, the only time that's my uh that's the way my prop philosopher professor used to talk to, Raymond Goyce. The only way, the only time that's how we would talk, uh that you uh want to change that temperature is if you have an ice cream shop and you want it to be at dipper temperature, and you are not doing that out of your home freezer. So anyway, turn it low.
+
+[47:58] Anyway, I put uh your numbers uh into my so my standard kind of daiquiri style specs for frozen stuff is about sixteen percent alcohol, eight point six percent sugar, and zero point eight to zero point eight two percent acid, okay? I plugged your numbers into uh my database, and you're at 18% alcohol, which is high, even with the lime, 6.3% sugar, which is low, but point 0.43% lime juice, which is way freaking low. So I just re-jiggered the things a little bit, and here's what I did. I did 90, I used your same numbers, but instead of the amount of lime you added, I added 95 milliliters of lime, which is roughly three and a quarter ounces, uh, and a full two ounces of simple syrup, 60 ounces, uh 60 um uh milliliters of simple syrup instead of uh 1.5 uh of simple syrup. Uh and my numbers came in at 16.4% alcohol, uh, 7.1% uh sh uh sugar, and 0.82% acidity, which is going to be a lot closer to uh the numbers that you want.
+
+[49:07] Okay? Hey Dave, we're gonna have to wrap it up then. All right, wait. So uh do that, and uh that should work for you. Uh and just make an Excel table where you plug in all of the numbers so you can uh kind of figure out what what you want.
+
+[49:18] And then since we're wrapping it up, I will unbelievably have to put off the tie basil one more freaking week. Unfreaking believable. But anyway, Dax, thanks for coming on Cooking Issues. Hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, I did.
+
+[49:28] All right, see you next week with Cooking Issues. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[50:00] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a for-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families. For more information, visit CultureCity.org. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Vier Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Roberta's Pizzeria. Where in where's the stas? Where is it? Where are we?
+
+[0:40] Old radio questions. Yeah, where no, where are we? We're in Chelsea, Manhattan. Ah. That'd be incredible.
+
+[0:47] Bushwick Brooklyn. So, joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. And uh she's looking up last week's questions that I missed.
+
+[0:58] And Jack Jackie Molecules back from his stomach virus. Yeah. Was it a virus or are you food poisoned? See, I was just talking to Stas about this before the show. Everybody pukes, and they immediately assume they've been food poisoned.
+
+[1:08] Um, which is what I assumed when my girlfriend was puking all Valentine's Day weekend. Uh either that or she was just like sick of me, and it was, you know. Wait, you were both puking it up? No, so she was first all weekend, and then two days later, I got hit with the same thing in the middle of the night. That's virus.
+
+[1:23] That's not that's not food poisoning unless she got it, cooked you something, didn't wash her hands. No, no, no, no, no. No, then she went back to work at a school she teaches at, and like half of the teachers had been calling out sick with the same thing, so she I hope she kept her mouth shut that it was her that did it. No, it wasn't her. It was some kid in the cafeteria puked when she was working.
+
+[1:41] So of course it was a kid. Come on. Yeah, well, you know, they're a little virus. But how do you tell Dave way that if it's you know food poisoning or or viral? I feel like d everybody kind of jumps to that conclusion, right?
+
+[1:50] They're like, oh, it must have been that sushi ad or something. Yeah, I mean, usually, like I only know it's food poisoning when first of all, I very rarely have any of that kind of stuff happen to me, but like I usually someone else will get hit. Like, because I can survive foods that like I've had my my wife get knocked out by foods like like puking like on the ground unconscious. I've had like friends and family like get totally wiped out, and like I just feel like a little bit not as not good. But when I get knocked out and then like everyone around me was eating with me, gets knocked out, pretty sure it was food poisoning.
+
+[2:23] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. At the same time. Also, like if you eat something that's just intensely stupid and you get hit, pretty much, hey, you know it was the food. Like my wife once, she went you familiar with the story.
+
+[2:36] Fine fair? Yeah. All right, never mind. Wait, what's intensely stupid food? Uh don't buy the week and a half old pre made parfait at your local, like, you know, supermarket that was made by someone in the back.
+
+[2:50] Got it. Don't buy the sushi that's been sitting there all day, God knows how long. You know what I mean? Like don't like don't buy sushi at a supermarket. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:02] That has like raw products in it, because all it takes is one knucklehead to not wash their hands before they uh before they do it or to get some cross contamination and you are hosed. You know what I mean? And it's not like it it's not i you know, it's uh at at least at a restaurant, right? You know, you assume that the people who are cooking have had some sort of training or there's some sort of cook there who knows what's right and what's wrong and it's gonna at least partially prevent uh, you know, the the people making the food from completely uh destroying the clientele. But you know, at a supermarket, who the hell knows?
+
+[3:34] You know what I mean? Yeah. Supermarket sushi. Right up there with gas station sushi, you know, our good friend of the show, Peter Kim, once purchased a moldy sandwich made at a gas station and ate it and didn't die. No, he took the mold off, and then when he was finished with the sandwich, he saw an extra piece of something in the container, and he was like, Oh, I'm not done.
+
+[3:53] And then he ate the mold, forgetting that he had taken the mold off. Yeah, now listen Peter Kim. The thing about Peter Kim lived like, like literally lived like in a hut in the jungle for years. Can eat it, has amazing pictures from Cameroon of uh like he was like teaching these little kids, and they would draw pictures of people with like horrible intestinal diseases, like spraying fluids out of every orifice, intense stuff. So I guess he you know, he is a strong personality in terms of his constitution, so you know he's like, What's it what's mold gonna do to me?
+
+[4:22] Although I'll tell you what. Bad mold has the aflatoxin, and then you don't know until you get the cancer, like 20 years later. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? I just stay away from it.
+
+[4:34] Well, we'll check in with Peter in 20 years, right? Wow. For a number of reasons. Uh wow, that's rough. There's a caller on the line.
+
+[4:41] Oh, okay, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Jeff. This is Andrew from Pittsburgh. How you doing? I'm doing well.
+
+[4:47] Um, I'm a bartender, and I just had a bunch of really fantastic USB G classes yesterday. Nice. One of them was a removed class, and the guy giving the class um talked about uh Oris roots and it's uh its role in gin, and he kind of described it as um it kind of helped lift the all the other ingredients. It doesn't really have a flavor by itself, it's just kind of bitterness, but it helps lift all the other flavors. Well, it's good it's got a flavor, it's got like a kind of also like a vague kind of sweetness.
+
+[5:18] I like Oris. I think Oris is is good, you know what I mean? Um we were playing with Oris last week, so I think it's good. Yeah, I mean, you don't want like, you know, you don't want like I don't know that anyone's ever made a plain oris root liqueur. I don't think it would stand on its own, but you know what I mean?
+
+[5:33] It's that's good. Anyway, so what so do we got going with Oris? Well, I guess so I I mean that anything that was an additive effect to a lot of other ingredients interests me. And so um, you know, I looked up tried to find as much as I could about it and all the usual suspects. I went to McGee and didn't have anything, and then I went to Amy Stewart, and she just had a very strong repeat on it, um talking about how it would like that fixative and help hold fragrances or flavors in solution by creating some sort of a missing compound um to keep them from uh volatilizing.
+
+[6:08] Is that true or is that just a theory? I I have I mean, I have no idea on this. So I mean I'm coming at it from hearing about this less than twenty four hours ago. Right. So I don't understand why it would do that.
+
+[6:21] Yeah. I I I mean that that's kind of my question, but is it if you knew more about it and and what you could do with it, or if it was possible to make a tincture that would uh that you could use to kind of act as a way to lift a bunch of other ingredients or I mean if that's even possible or well uh I mean obviously certain flavors and also certain aromas and certain taste ints, right? Uh can push and pull other flavors up and down in the way that you perceive them, even if they themselves are not immediately perceivable. And so the obvious ones are of course vanilla and uh salt, right? So uh and you know, it's entirely um possible, feasible that um oris also has some of those uh characteristics.
+
+[7:07] I don't understand what would be an oris root that would literally fix, in other words, make uh make volatiles less fugitive you know what I mean? Um maybe I don't know maybe I I uh the thing is I've carbonated things with Oris before and I don't know notice it doesn't have any like it doesn't really change the viscosity it doesn't like I doesn't appreciably I don't think change the surface tension too much so I don't know what or any in other words I don't see I don't see anything that it would change that would stop stuff from volatilizing but it might make volatiles uh more apparent to you now what typically like Nastasia and I literally we did this like a week ago uh or two weeks ago it you know what you should do is and I'm sure you have a local store in in Pittsburgh you know we have a couple here and I know where you know a couple where they are in Philadelphia but you know everyone's got one or there's the internet and you just get a bunch of different um things and and I would make a uh a tea a water based tea and then I would do um an alcohol tincture and I would do one like hot it depends on how much experimentation you want to do hot cold and then uh ISI uh and then um you can kind of get a range because what happens is that the different extraction uh techniques i e in water or in oil uh water or in uh alcohol will will pull out different um different properties and also um whether it's hot or cold or whether it's ISI is going to change the extraction speed and usually the faster extraction speeds tend to reduce bitter components and increase kind of uh aromatic highlights which is which is nice. And so what you do is you just make a whole boatload of these uh tinctures make them one item right and then you can go about and uh mix them. So if you if you're very accurate, if you measure exactly how much product you put into your um tinctures, like you know, like I I am doing 20 grams of Oris into 500 mils of water, f uh 500 mils boiling water, steeping it for five minutes and straining it. Bang.
+
+[9:03] Now you know and you know, you keep track to make sure that the oris roots are always the same size all the time, so your extraction rate's the same, etc. etc. Then you you know, you're like, okay, I put five milliliters of that solution in and then you know, t you know, twenty milliliters of uh mace, uh uh the solution and blah blah blah. And then you can go back and reconstruct your recipe. Now, it's never gonna taste the same when you try to do all your extractions at the same time or you average them out, but you can get pretty close and you can really kind of fine-tune your um your mixtures.
+
+[9:31] Or for instance, you could buy someone's gin and you could jack the oris. You know what I mean? You can do a uh a bunch of things like that. So it's a lot of fun. But uh, you know, in order to do experimenting, you really have to and it's uh Stas, how much of a pain in the ass is it?
+
+[9:43] I mean but butt, sorry, pain of the butt, yeah, it family show. But the yeah, so you're sitting there with like, you know, 30 quart containers all labeled, and you know, don't even bother tasting at the get go. Just crank quart containers out with uh with different known uh solutions in them and then just go out tasting. Teas are the fastest, right? I mean like and cheapest because you're not blasting through alcohol.
+
+[10:05] So I think as a first approximation, alcohol's gonna taste entirely different, but you know, just for fun playing around, it's uh it's really fun doing um uh teas. And then the great thing about teas is is that it you can use them for sodas, you know what I mean? So you can make sodas and and non alcoholic stuff, uh and then you can later uh kind of re ramp those recipes for alcohol or or or bar, but the remembering that if you do extractions in alcohol, you almost invariably pull more bitter components out. Okay. Um and was that using um fresh oris or was that using the really overdised uh oris that um they do to get the iron to like they something ox wet and turns into iowa.
+
+[10:46] Uh the only stuff I've ever used is the is like dried, it's like they almost look like very white wood chips, but they're small. Yeah. That's the only kind I've ever I've ever used. And you've seen it fresh or no, no, I I haven't. I was just curious um if there was a way to use a press because the only one that I've seen and talked about was super super dried.
+
+[11:05] Oxidizes a lot so it um produces the iron. I mean, that's like the I mean the characteristic f one I'm used to is that and you remember is that you know most of the time when people were making liqueurs and things like that, they were dealing with the dried article anyway. Because you know, they weren't growing it necessarily, and if they were they were stockpiling it and drying it. Dry stuff is a lot more stable. So you like um if you're you would never make um and there's a question later that we're gonna talk about hopefully that that you never would make is something that is intended to be stable with something unstable, right?
+
+[11:38] And so uh liquors uh and liqueurs and and spirits and whatnot typically are meant to be relatively stable over a relatively long period of time. So in general, you'd be using um things that are dried out. Now, I do the exact opposite a lot and try to make things that you wouldn't ordinarily have fresh that couldn't be made that couldn't be made as a commercial product because they they won't last and that is really fun to do, right? So like fresh turmeric, for instance, or fresh galangle or uh, you know, things like this, that the um where the f the you know the the freshness couldn't be really made into a commercial product, uh, but you can because you're gonna sell it right away. But the problem then is if you don't sell it right away, you're you're stuck with a lot of product that costs money.
+
+[12:22] But you know, that's life in the big city. Yeah. Right. All right all right great. Thank you so much.
+
+[12:26] I appreciate it. Hey, no problem. Good luck. Um wait so what what were we talking about Sash Food poisoning oh yeah so yeah just stay away f stay away from uh stay away from the supermarket uh sushi right says do you ever eat that stuff no what is there anything that is like really like stupid like that that you like to eat like Mark eats the tiramisu from Food Emporium. Whoa not anymore food emporium out of business remember or fine fare every night.
+
+[12:56] Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Mark Ladner chef of Del Posto restaurant eats the teramasue from the fine fair the fine you don't even have fine fair wait wait people for those of you that know they shop at big they shop at Big Apple supermarket which is big apple supermarket at least the roaches are refrigerated. I haven't dropped there in a while yeah I used to like shopping there because they have the giant buckets of uh like the giant giant buckets of food like the giant thing of of cheese the government cheese blocks and the giant cans. I forget what can I used to buy. Some giant can of food 15 number 15 that I used to buy there all the time for home. I loved it you hate it?
+
+[13:41] It's just a little further. Yeah yeah uh okay so oh Stuz another question but maybe of interest did uh did I see that our patent uh provisional patent got put in or no so we can talk about it now? I guess so you sure I can recheck. Yeah she's gonna recheck and if she if we're allowed to talk about uh if we're allowed to talk about our new patent, uh, we can. Oh, and did we have we we have a new product?
+
+[14:04] It's not like a big new product don't don't get excited. But we're going through beta testing now with some with some users. We hear heard anything back. Do people like it? Do they hate it?
+
+[14:13] Yeah, Nick likes it. Really? Trying to find how to use it with pebble ice. Huh. So how long uh until we start selling it, you think?
+
+[14:21] Um, I don't know, like two weeks. Okay, so for those of you that were listening, um, I don't know, we've we've talked about it before on the show, right? There's this it that okay, listen. When you're shaking a cocktail, you want to shake with big ice, right? Why?
+
+[14:34] Because the texture is better. That's it. The texture's just better. But a lot of times you don't have big ice, right? When I say big ice, I'm talking like two inches on a side, big ice.
+
+[14:42] And something about that big cube rattling around inside of your uh inside of your shaker, um makes the texture better. But the problem is you don't have that ice a lot. And even if you do have that ice, it's shake once and you throw it away, so you're throwing away all this ice. So your freezer is gonna be full of these big ice cubes. You shake them once, you throw them away.
+
+[14:59] It's wasteful, right, Stas? Right. Waste, waste. And also, if you're doing an event, right, and this is why we came up with it. If you're gonna do an event and you're going out to uh let's say let's say you're going to some like crap tank, you know, cater location.
+
+[15:13] I'm not saying that all cater locations are crap tank. Most many are beautiful, but you know what I'm saying, Stas, crap tank. So you go there and the ice they bring you is like the world's worst ice. It's like it like literally is like a soupy, soupy mess of like tiny shells and broken uh things. You know what I'm talking about, Stus?
+
+[15:31] So that ice from a dilution standpoint, as we all know from the fundamental law of cocktails, if anyone's read the liquid intelligence, like the dilution's gonna be fine as long as you shake off the uh excess water that's on it, because it's got a lot of surface area water on it. But the texture's not gonna be good. So what you do is is uh you we made this fake fake cock cube. What do we call it? The cocktail cube?
+
+[15:52] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doesn't chill drinks. Listen to me, please, very freaking carefully. It does not chill drinks.
+
+[15:58] Oh my God. You're gonna confuse the people, Stas. Seriously. It's not gonna actually register in their brains until you say it three times. Okay, listen.
+
+[16:07] Dude, listen. People are like, okay, so you put this in the freezer and you use it instead of uh ice cube. No. No. No.
+
+[16:17] First of all, you need ice to melt to dilute the drink, or the dilution will be wrong. Right? I mean, clearly you need ice to melt. And plus, we make this cube out of a uh polymer, it's like polyurethane, that is that is an insulator. It does not chill, nor does it heat your drink.
+
+[16:38] Does it chill it, Stas? No. Does it heat it? No. Should you put it in your freezer?
+
+[16:44] No. Right. Right. It neither chills nor heats. It's just there to provide texture.
+
+[16:50] So you throw this into your into your shaker, along with whatever crap tanking ice you have at your event or at your wonderful house, and you shake it and then you wash off the cube and you start again. Now, the one thing I have been told is that you should run, and it's not in the instructions, people, but that you should run this uh polyurethane cube through the dishwasher once before you use it to, you know, because it's it's and we should have put it in the instructions, but it's a manufactured item, so you want to wash it before you use it. Yeah. I'd say dishwasher, right? Yeah, it's it's a very it's like a rubbery polyurethane because we discovered that if we used a really hard one that you would it would like kind of like uh make little flakes.
+
+[17:26] But this rubber works great, but it's not so rubbery. Uh did I talk about this in a show ever? We we made one so rubbery that it f that it felt gross. Oh, speaking of we allowed to talk about your sister's art piece? Is that your sister's art piece?
+
+[17:37] No? Alright, so we won't talk about it. But speaking of like rubbery things that may or may not feel like they belong in in an adult shop. Oh God. Yeah.
+
+[17:44] Uh this art piece that Stuas sent me a gif of is uh uh unreal. Uh I wish we could talk about it because it reminds me of an art piece that I did. She doesn't know somebody made it there. I don't know who's gonna be. Oh, it's not hers?
+
+[17:56] No, unfortunately. No, it's not a good one. Okay. So I put collar on the line. Collar, you're on the air.
+
+[18:04] Hi. Uh hi, Dave Natalcia and the whole gang. Um I am a huge I'm a huge fan of the show. Um I've been trying to make some veggie chips. Uh so far I've been experimenting with taro, um, sweet potato, rutabega, and custava.
+
+[18:17] I've been having a hard time getting the sweet potato and rutabega to crisp up nicely. I was wondering if you had any suggestion. Right, so they're soft and they go brown too fast, right? Uh yeah. Yeah.
+
+[18:28] Uh are you soaking them a lot beforehand? So um I tried two um two different things. Uh one of them I uh just like I rinsed them off in like cold water, and then one other time I uh salted them for a half hour beforehand. And both times both things didn't really work. Yeah.
+
+[18:46] So uh there's a c there are a couple issues here. Uh wait, what was the sweet potato? What was the other one you're having problems with? I'm sorry? Yeah, the the sweet potato you're having problems, what was the other one?
+
+[18:55] Uh rutabega. Rutabega. Huh. Does rutabega have I guess rutabega does have sugar in it, huh? Yeah, it's it was pretty sweet when I like tra tasted it raw.
+
+[19:03] Yeah. So the I love rutabega. I've never had a rubega chip. I love it. I don't know why.
+
+[19:07] Do you know why that the Brits call it sweet? No. Me neither. It's it's a delicious vegetable. Don't you find it an underused vegetable?
+
+[19:14] Yeah. I mean, it tastes kind of like turnip to me. Yeah, but better. In other words, like if someone said to me, hey, you could have a rutabaga, or hey, you could have a turnip, would you ever say, Give me the turnip? Never.
+
+[19:26] Rutabega sounds so much better. Doesn't it though? What do you think, Jack? It's obvious. I mean, yeah, obviously.
+
+[19:34] So uh here's the thing. Um sugar is doing two things bad to you. One. Uh it's browning very quickly when uh when it's frying, right? And secondly, uh as it cools down, the residual sugar, uh, because it's uh you know hygroscopic is gonna be absorbing uh moisture and is gonna make them soft and pliable, which are both your enemy, which is why, by the way, sweet potato fries in general, fries, not chips, fries, uh are hard to make taste good, and so I never order them.
+
+[20:05] Uh ever. But the uh never. But the the so how do you get around this? One, if you soak to try and get as much soluble sugar out as possible, uh you're gonna win somewhat. The other thing is you're gonna want to do is that you're gonna want to get as much of the liquid out of the thing before uh bef before it goes brown.
+
+[20:25] So start are you are you starting with cold oil? Um cold oil, I I haven't been. You should. With chips, here's the thing, right? So the the common wisdom when you're frying uh something, right, is you put the oil in uh and you put it in hot and you don't let the temperature drop too much because God forbid uh if the temperature drops, the oil is gonna get absorbed into uh whatever you're frying, right?
+
+[20:46] This is what we've all been taught growing up, right? Yep. Okay. In a chip, uh chips are supposed to be filled with oil. Anyone who tells you that a chip a chip is supposed to be freaking saturated with oil, like half the weight of a chip is the oil that's been absorbed.
+
+[21:01] It's it's solely crust. There is no reason to not um you know fully inundate a chip with oil. Now you don't want grease on the outside, right? You want to like, you know, put them on a towel and get the excess grease. Greasy chips, disgusting.
+
+[21:14] But like they like having oil in the chip itself, not bad. Uh in fact, necessary. That's what a chip is. Uh that's why those quote unquote baked chips are an abomination, enemy of quality, ridiculous freaking things that should be banned. They should not call them the they should call them something else.
+
+[21:34] Do you like those things, Studs? No. Jack, do you like those dang things? No, no, no. They're ridiculous.
+
+[21:39] Well, like the thing is, is there a joke? Why don't why do people even why don't they just call them something else? Do you know what I'm saying? They're not a potato chip. Okay, enough.
+
+[21:47] But listen, if you start from a cold oil, what happens is is that you can regulate the heat. You need to get rid of all of the water. That is your problem. You need to you need to get the water out of those chips before they turn brown. So if you go cold, then you can do that.
+
+[22:04] So for instance, um some people do this by uh putting a vacuum on. So there was a people used to try this try to sell this thing called a gastrovac, which was uh it didn't really work. But they they said it was a vacuum fryer, but the problem is is that they put a vacuum pump on it that didn't have the cojones to really suck a vacuum while you were frying, right? This it didn't work. But uh people commercially use a vacuum fryer to make things like apple chips.
+
+[22:27] So the apple chips they want to fry them, but they don't want to absorb a lot of oil because they're I don't know why, because they're you know low quality people. And uh they suck a vacuum on it so that they can get rid of the water at a low temperature without the apple browning because the apple's got a lot of sugar in it, right? And so if if you had a commercial system, which is I think how they do a lot of these kind of things commercially, you could suck a vacuum while you fry, but that's not really an option for you. For you, I would say do an initial soak to get rid of as much of the uh uh sugar as you can, then uh start from cold oil and bring it up slow, get the water out, and then at the last minute, let the temperature ramp up to do any additional browning that you want after they after they kind of bubble the stuff out. You ever do you ever fried tortillas?
+
+[23:09] No, no, I haven't you should because if you buy to first of all, like buying tortilla chips, they charge too much for the tortilla chips, and I find them too thin. I don't enjoy the thin. Do you like you enjoy thin tortilla chips? I do not enjoy them. They suck.
+
+[23:21] They suck. You want the thick ones, so like I, you know, I'm not a fan of like uh, you know, the maseca in general, if you can get the real masa, but like for frying, they're fine. Just go buy like the the regular like big stacks of tortilla uh you know tortillas. Uh you know, I I break them in half like a book, like book book, not break them, but like fold them so that they separate and then like peel them all individually apart, put them down into a stack, chop them into six, and fry them. But they're good practice for chips, uh for potato chips because they're a lot more um forgiving than a potato chip.
+
+[23:52] But you just want to look at a tortilla chip, right? And it's gonna bubble like a lunatic for a while, stir them up, and then you're gonna notice the bubbling start to subside, right? And that's when you know that you've gotten almost all the water out of the tortilla chip. Now, the mistake people make when they fry tortilla chips is they pull them out too soon because they don't want them to get too dark, or they have it. But when you pull them out, you have that little circle on the inside of the triangle that's too white.
+
+[24:14] Anyone know what I'm talking about, Stas. You know what I'm talking about? And then you tap it and it's not crunchy. Yeah. And that's the worst.
+
+[24:20] No one wants a saw, unless you're making chiliquilis or something, nobody wants a soggy tortilla chip. It's not what you want. And the same goes true for potato chips, but I would practice maybe with tortillas on on the frying, because you can start tortilla chips also from cold. Uh you don't need to, and and and bring them up, and you'll notice that the water, if you get the oil temperature right, the water will go away, and then you have like a couple, like you have several seconds of window between that and when they start over browning. I also don't like an overbrown tortilla chip.
+
+[24:48] Do you like that stuff? They start getting that burn over-nutty flavor. No good. Tortilla chips, good practice for you and very cheap. And everybody likes tortilla chips that have been fried at home.
+
+[24:58] They just they're just like they're just so much better. They really are. Right, Jack? I I agree. All right.
+
+[25:05] Give that give that a try and tweet us back and let us know how it worked. Well dude. Thank you very much. Alright, no problem. Hey, Jack, should we take a break?
+
+[25:11] That's what I was just gonna say. Alright, buddy. Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a for-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families. This is Culture City's founder, Julian Maha. Culture City was really born out of uh necessity.
+
+[25:37] You know, it was born when my uh you know currently six-year-old boy was diagnosed with autism. Uh, his name is Abram, and he's non-verbal. And even though my wife and I were both physicians at the time, it was really hard for us to find any resources at that point to help him. All the other organizations out there that we know of, um, they do phenomenal work, but your main focus is basically finding a cure for autism. Our main focus is basically trying to prepare the community to accept not only children with autism, but their families as well.
+
+[26:07] You know, in addition to that, we also want to provide help to these families in the here and now. You know, so tangible things like you know, iPads for non-verbal kids, you know, financial scholarships, uh therapy scholarships, you know, art camps, and also some um lecture series that can teach parents about you know dietary issues, um, you know, how to financially plan and things like that. For more information, visit culturecity.org. Sounds good. Are they good people, Jack?
+
+[26:38] Oops, sorry, they are very good people, yeah. In Birmingham. Very, very good people. Yeah. You know, uh, that's exactly exactly right, I think.
+
+[26:47] The you know, the attitude is like every everyone, you know, focuses on a cure. When you get hit with uh a diagnosis for your kids like that, it's like oh cure, cure, cure. But no, it's like what you want to do is have your kid be the best them they can be. The most f have the most joy in life for what they for what they want. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:05] Absolutely. Yeah, that's what they do. That's the whole point of the organization. And uh they're great. And they also kind of like they they were a big part of the wave of getting like iPads and noise canceling headphones in restaurants um and stuff.
+
+[27:17] So, you know, like having things available for kids with autism and families that want to dine out or or go out. They do tons of work. Culture City with a K. Um, definitely check them out. Yeah, and you know, that's the thing.
+
+[27:29] If you see like look, parent like people people who don't like have uh haven't dealt with these kinds of issues, just be uh be what's the word I'm looking for, be charitable to people around you. You're like, why is a kid doing that? Just shut up and leave him alone. You know what I'm saying, Jack? Absolutely.
+
+[27:49] Yeah. Uh and uh because there's a lot of things that you don't understand, like why kids can't, why this kid can't eat food that are mixtures. And look, I have problems with it too. Like why can't kids what who knows? But you know, deal with it.
+
+[28:00] That's that's life. Uh it is a weird thing not liking foods mixed together, right, Stas? Mm-hmm. Did you were you like that when you were a kid? Uh yeah, but not yeah.
+
+[28:09] Not like, you know, like not Rose or whatever. Yeah, like like Booker w can't have anything like mixed. He like he wants his chicken broth by itself. Remember when you gave him uh chicken breast and an egg, and I said that's a bad idea because I think you prompted him. So I didn't I said it to you privately.
+
+[28:29] He's like, Dad, too much protein, Dad. Not too much chicken. Not too much chicken protein because it was an egg. Uh dinner. Here's your dinner kid.
+
+[28:38] Here's your dinner. Well, look, he looked at the time he just wanted like all he wanted was chicken and eggs. So I figured I'll combine two things he likes separately on on the plate. I don't know. Whatever.
+
+[28:50] Um so uh Stas, do me a favor. I had a question. Uh I didn't get a chance to look up the recipe because I don't have it committed to memory. I've had it committed to memory before, but I erase it from my mind. Can you look up a Long Island Ice T because we had a question about it, and you can uh ask me.
+
+[29:03] And meanwhile, I'll hit another uh hit another question here. This in from Benjamin Terry. My sister wants you to know that is not her art project. Uh okay. There may or may not be there may or may not be a rubber there may or may not be a a rubber male member attached to a servo motor that that goes back and forth like a windshield wiper, and as it as it's moving out of the way, uh a steak knife comes down and just misses it, right?
+
+[29:32] Yes. Uh and so that's the piece that Nastasia's sister said she didn't make. But it reminds me very much of a piece that I actually made back um, you know, before I went to grad school. Did I tell you about this piece? Maybe.
+
+[29:44] I don't think I've told this on the air. It's stupid. But it's a involves with knives. It's one of the worst cuts I've ever received in my life. I've received some pretty bad cuts.
+
+[29:51] So uh I I I was very interested in my artwork with in uh kind of um machines and uh and kind of false like spectacle where it looked like you were gonna get hurt but you weren't, or like there was danger, but you know, you didn't end up hurting yourself. So I built this little so I had you know, I built this little kind of machine that was supposed to be a tiny like amusement park ride, and you you grab his handle with your hand, and as you spin the the handle, an uh a razor like I built this knife with razor blades all on it, like all real razor blades, and as your knuckle went down, the razor blade would accelerate over the top of your knuckle. So you couldn't like it was geared, so you couldn't cut your hand, but it accelerated so fast around over your hand that it was like foom, like foom, blinding right over your knuckles. And so I would sit there and I would I would crank it with all these gears, and it would just be boom, boop, boop, boop, boom, these razors right over your hand. It's kind of like freaky, right?
+
+[30:46] So that was the whole thing, this like kind of little mini amusement park ride. So, anywho, I'm going to uh I applied to actually went to what got in, went to uh Columbia University for fine arts as my MFA grad school. So I'm like, you know, uh I'll bring an art piece with me so I can show him what I do in the you know in the interview. And so I'm having this interview with Alan Hacklin, who is uh he's an artist and he's the uh he was the the head of the program at the time. And so I'm talking to him, and you know how it's hard for me sometimes like to talk and do stuff at the same time.
+
+[31:16] Yeah, so I'm talking to him, and I had had to disassemble it to to take it with me, right? So I'm assembling this thing while I'm talking to him and like pieces everywhere, and because I'm not paying attention, I assemble it, get ready for it, Jack, 180 degrees wrong. Oh boy. And so what that means is is that the my knuckle is in the high position when the blade is over your hand. And so I'm like, and so you can never cut your shaboof.
+
+[31:41] And then like the razor blade embeds itself like all the way into my knuckle. I still have the scar, and a blood just starts pouring out of my hand all over his desk in the middle of the interview. And I kept on well, maybe because like my reaction was, um, yeah. I like pulled like a napkin off of his uh desk and wrapped it around my knuckle and tried to like keep as much pressure on as possible, blood like seeping out of it all over my lap. Yeah, they let me in.
+
+[32:05] I could have finished the interview, kind of scraped the thing under my one arm and like kind of walked out. Anyway. Wow. Yeah. So Long Island ice tea.
+
+[32:15] Let's see what you got, Stuz. I got that one too. What's in the long okay? Two cups, ice cubes, one ounce vodka, one ounce gin, one ounce white red, and white one ounce white tequila, half ounce triple sack, two tablespoons, freshly squeezed lemon juice, half cup cola, two lemon wedges. What do you got, Jack?
+
+[32:30] This this recipe says sour mix, but I mean I mean that's you know, then there's the Wondrich variation. Uh, what's his? So Wondrich has uh half ounce absolute vodka, half ounce beef eater gin, half ounce Don Q white rum, half ounce uh milagro blanco tequila, half ounce fresh lemon juice, simple syrup, and um wow, you know, this is I wonder if Perna Ricard paid for that recipe. Those are all Perno, those are all Perno products. Um I have to ask you something though.
+
+[32:59] I've never been able to pronounce um Quantra, it's Quantra, right? Quantra. Yeah, okay, good. Yeah. Quanch.
+
+[33:06] The quanch. I love that stuff. You like Quantro? I've trouble it. Yeah.
+
+[33:10] Yeah. Urcell? And Coke. You have pro you have trouble with pronouncing Curaçao? Not anymore.
+
+[33:15] Uh well, I mean, I look, I pronounce everything wrong. I got in a huge argument with my wife uh just a couple days ago because I was like, I'm we talked about it on the air. We thought last week we talked about it. I s I'm gonna say coupon. She's like, that's not what it is.
+
+[33:27] Oh, that's a few weeks ago, yeah. Do you know what she gets really mad at me for? Like uh, you know the word like uh opaque? I say it I say it opaque. She's like, it doesn't have three freaking syllables, it's opaque.
+
+[33:37] I'm like, no, I say it opaque, and like I don't care. Like I don't care. Like I'll call it chicken if I want. I'm the and that character like you know what I mean. It's like leave me alone with the leave me alone.
+
+[33:47] You know what I mean? Wow. Yeah. Well, if these are the only problems you have in a marriage, God bless you, right? Okay.
+
+[33:53] Uh so uh the question about Long Island IST, John from Dallas, and by the way, I tweeted out. Do you know I saw J.R. Ewing's uh hat at the Museum The Moving Image, which is a fantastic museum, and I I I did it on Instagram, but he had he had a really not that expensive hat for J.R. It was like I I like shoved my face against the side of the of the display case. So I could s look and see inside the hat band.
+
+[34:19] And it was just a triple X beaver, which is like, you know, like an $80 hat. Like a $70 or $80 hat. I have the same hat, but I have remolded it, of course, into a planter shape because that's the only shape that I wear. Whatever. So John from Dallas asks, what affects the perception of alcohol in Long Island Iced tea?
+
+[34:34] The drink is almost completely liquor, yet it's famous for tasting nearly non-alcoholic. It doesn't seem like it should work. Uh well, I haven't had one in a long time. Although Tristan back in the day used to and Robbie used to make these uh carbonated Long Island iced teas. Which uh they were just doing it for the acronym.
+
+[34:53] But the the why it works, I think it has to do with any time that you mix uh it's just getting on board. Uh and any any time that you mix a boat ton of stuff together, everything tends to even out. You know what I mean? And you kind of just lose the ability to distinguish uh anything. So I think it's just the cola is probably watering it down and the lemon, and then it's just a uh a poop spray of ingredients.
+
+[35:17] I mean, I think that's the only thing I can think of. I don't think it's a magical list. I think you could re-jigger it with almost anything else in it and it'd be fine. I'll tell you what we did once at the bar. I get very uh uh I get kind of pretzeled when you know the bartenders come up with drinks that have like 35 different ingredients in them.
+
+[35:33] And so uh, and I've said it on the air a million times, I call it like shotgun mixing. So I went to the bar once and I literally just went on the back bar and I took the first 15 uh liqueurs and I just mixed them all in equal proportions. Just pick them all up, 15 liqueurs, bang, and they're like, Yeah, it tastes fine. Tastes like cocktail, it tastes fine. I'm like duh.
+
+[35:52] Because if you mix a bunch of crap together, it just is kind of like uniform cocktail pablum. You know what I'm saying? And so I think something's happening there, the same thing with the with the uh with the ice tea. Was there anything brown in it? No.
+
+[36:03] Yeah, that's it. They're sticking away, they're staying away from the brown. Okay. Uh Benjamin Terry wrote in. I'm trying to figure out a vegan.
+
+[36:10] Vegan. The cola also cuts. Yeah. No, I mean brown. Oh, brown, but not mean liqueur.
+
+[36:16] I don't know. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out a vegan replacement for egg whites in a cocktail uh setting. Lately I've been playing with aquafaba, the chickpea brine, uh, which we have a lot of people who are interested in the chickpea brine. Just does.
+
+[36:29] I know. Friggin' chickpea brine. And while I haven't noticed too much of a flavor or odor variation, it certainly isn't as frothy as an egg white. Uh I'm mostly using the chickpea water from the falafel place across the street, cold soaked. Would heat change the chemistry and make it frothier?
+
+[36:43] I bet it would, yes. I would definitely, yeah, 100%. Uh it would also taste more. Uh, any tips for this process or for any other egg white replacements in your experience, I should try. Thanks.
+
+[36:52] Well, most of the egg white replacements I've used actually are not vegan. So, like milk washing. Um there are certain ingredients that are inherently frothy. So using those here's the here's the thing, right? Okay, look.
+
+[37:05] Egg whites are doing two things in a cocktail. They're providing uh a texture and a f and a foam froth. But also the proteins in the egg whites are binding with um uh flavors in the cocktail and kind of muting them. So like one of the reasons that an egg white is really good in whiskey sour is because it deadens the kind of uh tannic nature of the wood in the in the oak. So what so there's a flavor thing happening there as well.
+
+[37:32] So if you're gonna substitute out, now you can just go by, by the way. I don't know if you're against this, you can go buy frothy. The problem with frothy, which is a cocktail frother, and I think it's I don't know what remember whether it's propylene glycolalginate or just propylene glycol, but uh with uh some emulsifiers is that they also add the stupidly add flavor to it, like citric acid and like fake lemon flavor. I don't know why the hell you would do that. Like just sell me the freaking froth.
+
+[37:55] You know what I mean, Stas? Yeah. Don't sell me the froth plus some other BS, just sell me the froth. But I'm sure someone makes one that just has the froth in it. Um but you know, that adds the the foam, but I don't think it's gonna I don't think it's gonna do that uh flavor uh change uh thing for you.
+
+[38:10] Now, anytime you uh are gonna put a foam on something, a lot of what times what people want to do is they want to add a stabilizer. So like your chickpea thing probably has some stable stabilizing stuff in it. I've tried various cocktails with Xanthan uh as a stabilizer. It's not a whipping agent. You still need a whipping agent, something like a pineapple juice or a cucumber juice or uh VersaWhip or anything that has kind of uh a a whipping uh uh ability to it.
+
+[38:34] But the z little bit of xanthan can stabilize the foam so that it lasts longer. Um problem is is that remember we did that test with all those xanthans and you could kind of taste it. It was kind of like a little bit of a remember that yeah. Anyway, uh so I don't have anything uh a hundred percent, but try the f try the frothy. Um I'll try to think about it more.
+
+[38:54] Anyone on the uh on the webinats on our uh chat room there uh can uh crank in on it too. Okay, uh so uh so what shall we talk about in the in the few minutes we have left? Should we talk about the patent? Should we uh uh flowers on florage? Yeah, I just wanted to double check with him and he hasn't written me back.
+
+[39:11] Alright, so we'll talk about it next time then. But we we've got the patent in working on the centrifuge, hard is hard as hard is hard. Um it's uh it's a long road. Once we once I can talk about the patent, I'll talk about because someone asked me what's it like to try to make a product in China and I can talk about it. Did I say China like Trump?
+
+[39:28] Did I just do it? Did I just use Trump's accent when I said China China? China. Uh he has a weary weird way of saying China, right? China.
+
+[39:38] Very strange. Um we'll talk about when that when that gets back. All right, so then did you have any questions from last week I need to hit, or should I hit this other one? Um you had one about did you talk about the pineapple and the cerez all pineapple drink series all the guy wanted you to acknowledge? No.
+
+[39:52] It's nothing, it's not a question. Oh, all right. Well uh YouTube videos. Oh, all right. Well, what's w who who was it when we say go look at their YouTube video of pineapple uh I like it, I like that.
+
+[40:02] I like pineapple, I like Searsols. Um while you're looking for that, I will read uh this. Uh my wife works as an assistant winemaker and is planning a blind tasting of wines doped, doped, with different floral components to taste through with a group of winemakers where she works. We have done by the way, are we we're doing a centrifuge exp uh teaching uh seminar today, right? You are doing that today.
+
+[40:24] Yeah. Look, when we talk about the patent, I'll do a little bit about how centrifuges work and you know, etc. etc. Okay. Uh we have done similar experiments with fruits and herbs, and it is fairly str herbs, and it's fairly straightforward to extract uh the characteristics.
+
+[40:39] However, flowers are more of a challenge. There are issues getting all the flowers fresh, extracting floral aromatics versus the green character, among other concerns. Yeah, so the people like pick the calyces off of flowers. Dealing with flowers is a pain in the behind. Um I don't have the list of flowers at present, but I'm sure it includes jasmine, honeysuckle, violets, roses, etc.
+
+[40:57] Uh are there a specific are there specific methods for making extracts or essential oils that are food safe and can be added into wine directly and are stable for weeks to months? Uh this would make finding all the flowers fresh at the same time less of an issue. If so, what would be the preferred liquid to perform our own extractions that we can later add to wine? Okay, uh from Bobby. So I would definitely get in touch with Mandy Aftel, the uh perfumer, because she deals with this kind of uh stuff all the time.
+
+[41:22] But in general, flower essence, it flower essences to me they don't really they're not necessarily the same as the actual flower itself. Sometimes they're pretty close, right? Like rose, like rose. Rose can be pretty close. Uh but you you don't want to do a straight extraction uh into most of the time if you try to do a straight extraction of a flower directly into alcohol, it gets that disgusting soaked flower flavor.
+
+[41:47] You know what I'm talking about, Saz? That gross soaked flower flavor. So typically the uh the kind of uh essences and are are made in in one of several ways, but steam distillation is the easiest, kind of the cheapest way to do it. But a lot of flower aromas are and then they're then they're fixed in alcohol or other things. And you can get them and they're stable and you can get them food grade.
+
+[42:07] I mean, some flowers are poison some flow not sunflowers, some flowers are poisonous, and so you should stay away from them. Remember, we were gonna put some poisonous flower into a drink, and I was like, come on, it's a little bit okay. And they're like, no, really poisonous. No, kill you. Some iris variant.
+
+[42:14] No. Wasn't it you that we were looking to say? Yeah, but they were anyway. Uh but some flowers can't be uh done that way. So the like the hardest one is like tuberos, is really difficult to do distillations because the flavor breaks down.
+
+[42:34] Now we used to do tuberos in the rotovap. Remember, Stas? That was a pain in the behind. We would rotovap the tuberos because it was all at a low temperature so it wouldn't break down. Do you like tuberos?
+
+[42:43] Mm-hmm. That's the one that grows on the beach. Uh no, it's the one that they make Hawaiian lays out of, and it's got that like aroma. It's hard to do. Anyway.
+
+[42:50] The classic way to do flowers that are difficult to do via distillation is a technique that Sam Mason used to play around a little bit with, but and you know, but it kind of got superseded by fat washing in general, but is uh enflourage. Uh and so remember what's that movie Stas about the perfume guy with the enflourage where he was like, It says perfume, yeah. Yeah, it's just called perfume? What was he doing? Killing people and getting their aromas?
+
+[43:12] What was he doing? Yeah, that was it, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, the way enflourage works is that uh it's labor intensive is that you take the the f the aromatics in the flowers are soluble in uh fat. So what they do is they take typically for these, they take a solid fat, spread it on glass plates, and then put the flowers onto the glass plates and then stack the glass plates up so that the aromas are just constantly wafting in these in these crates of glass plates through the fat, and then like after a specific amount of time, like a while, they'll rip the old flowers off, slap another layer of flowers onto them, and basically get these like hyper aromatic uh flower fat things.
+
+[43:50] And the reason you leave in there for a long time is that the flowers, you pick the calyx off, by the way, the green part, so it's doesn't have those green things, f aromas. The flower keeps on making aromas until it starts to break down. And so the flower like the rather than just getting like a like a couple of minutes or a couple, you get like a long period of the flower producing these aromas that you absorb into the fat. Then you wash the fat with very high proof ethanol to take the flavors out of the fat, but you're not pulling any of the weird, bitter, crappy stuff out of the flowers because you've already removed the flowers from the equation by the time you put the alcohol in. And that is how Enflorage works, and that's the way I would go.
+
+[44:27] And we gotta go. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[44:50] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Thurman Maple Days. Celebrate flowing of sap in the Adirondacks, self-guiding to seven sites for talks, tours, tastes, and old fashioned friendliness. For more information, visit thurman maple days.com. I'm Linda Palaccio, host of A Taste of the Pass. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live at noon, actually, Stas. What do you think about that? Crazy.
+
+[0:41] Uh the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting from Roberta's Pizzeria. Where, Jack? Bushwick. Brooklyn. Oh yeah.
+
+[0:50] Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. And Jack Jackie Molecules, what's up? I'm doing well.
+
+[0:58] Good, good. Uh, we are going to be joined shortly by the late arriver. I guess is like, you know, planning on my usual arrival time. Uh, Peter Kim. Uh, you know.
+
+[1:08] He got a different name for him before the show started. What was it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:12] Yeah. Family show, Jack. Family show. Uh, call in your questions to 718 497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[1:22] So, Stas on the magnificent L train on the way over here today. I was on that. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Just the one that just.
+
+[1:29] No. No. The one before me? Maybe. Anyways.
+
+[1:31] I'm never on the L train to get here. Anyways, dude had so much ketchup on his face. Like just cat ketchup all over his face. And I'm like, dude. Like, a little bit of ketchup like on your cheek.
+
+[1:45] Like, alright, fine. Whatever. Like eating. Well, no, that's the thing. He had done eating.
+
+[1:49] He wasn't one of these freaks in the subway, like jamming his face full of like pot pie or something. But he had like, it was like he had taken a fistful of French fries, gone pink in the ketchup, and then like shoved it into his face and got it all over his face. But here's the thing. You if you have that much ketchup on your face, you can smell it. You can smell you're like, why do I why do I still smell ketchup?
+
+[2:12] You know what I mean? Like what a horrible thing to have on your face, too. Yeah, just like a just a bow ton of ketchup. Crazy. Not right.
+
+[2:20] I have a collar on if you want to get right to it. Yeah, let's get right to it. Let's get right into business. Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh Juno from Silver Spring, Maryland.
+
+[2:30] How are you? Doing all right. So question for you. You know how in uh liquid intelligence you have kind of that shopping list? Excuse me, that shopping list, and it's like grouped together by.
+
+[2:43] Oh, did we lose you? Oh my god, we lost it. I do know the shopping list. I'm familiar with the shopping list. I was thinking about this uh also.
+
+[2:53] You still there? Maybe well maybe you're back? Yeah, yeah. The shopping list, okay. Yeah.
+
+[2:57] Yeah, yeah, sorry. So um, you know, that that list that you have where it's kind of grouped into like this, these are your necessities. This is if you have a little bit more money, and this is if you want to go crazy. Right. Um, so say you were doing the same thing for a commercial kitchen thing for like a deli.
+
+[3:13] Um you know, how how how might you group that? Okay, well, what what kind of deli? What are you serving? So uh we're gonna be doing uh everything in-house except for baking bread. Uh but you know, uh cooking roasts from scratch, uh, you know, making some prepared meals like soups and stews, some basic catering also, but uh, you know, nothing too fancy, at least at the outset.
+
+[3:36] I'm trying to look to how I can bootstrap it as much as possible. Um, you know, uh thinking uh if if if I switch to induction, does it require the use of a hood, you know, that that sort of thing. So really trying to be creative with with our expenses there. Right. Well, you could definitely, I mean, I don't know what your venting requirements are, but uh, you know, the situation rather, but you can definitely reduce your your the CFMs or the venting you need by going induction.
+
+[4:04] I know a lot of people also who just basically cheat and they do their hot side on induction and then take it away when they're not using it, and that's totally viable. You know what I mean? Um it all depends on what you can get away with in in your locale. Um but you know, uh are you if you're gonna do traditional any traditional deli stuff, I would invest in the sweetest slicers that you could possibly get. Right?
+
+[4:28] And so, like, I I'm what kind of slicer are you getting? Uh so so it's I I'm buying a company that's already existing, but I'm trying to think of it like this place is so mismanaged, I have to think how would I how I would start from scratch. So I they have like a the guy told me they have like a 70-year-old Hobart slicer, which is you know, just on on an angle. Um look a lot so like let's just take the slice because to me, like the heart, and this is kind of pathetic the way I think, but the heart of like a deli operation is like your slicer, right? Uh so slicers, uh obviously, you know, I don't know how long you have to deal with the one that you you currently have, but the issue with the angle gra or gravity feed slicer, which is you know the American standard for slicers, um, is that regardless of you know how sharp you keep the blade, uh i there you're gonna get some toe out on the uh you know, some healing out on the bottom of the meat as as you cut.
+
+[5:29] And you know what I'm talking about that and that's just the nature of the beast when you're using um a gravity fed slicer. Now, you know, what what does that really mean? It means that you have to like take it off or ro rotate it a as you slice or take it off and take that little heel piece off and it's unpleasant. Is that like a life ender? No.
+
+[5:50] But if you were curing your own meats and like, you know, you really cared about it and you're dealing with high value stuff, you don't want that to to happen. Now the modern gravity slicers are a lot better in that respect because they require a lot more down pressure than um some of the older ones do. Uh and you know, you know, the m you know, my favorite, uh, you know, the my you know, the hob the you know, the old um um the model three thousand, the you know, the newer the the Hobart model three thousand, which is like was uh like such a pimped out machine, like that did a very good job on on thin slices. The Bazerba, you know, uh which was before that other one, the one that and by the way, I'm a couple of years behind, like three, four years it's been since I really worried about slicers. Um, you know, was was the the best.
+
+[6:37] But you know, if you're gonna do a high-end presentation deli kind of a situation, eventually you might want to get a vertical, like to uh because a vertical slicer, A, looks freaking awesome, and B, like doesn't have any of that distortion on the slices that goes through. That said, I o the only people I know who use them are like, you know, the people trying to do like the high end Italian style uh kind of service, uh, you know, who don't want to do hand slicing. Um so I don't and I don't have a lot of personal ex experience with them. But the good thing about like the newer slicers is I would look the reason I like the the three thousand is the just the ease of cleaning on it too like it's got like it's got that like hydraulic lift that you can lift up the slicer and clean underneath it you could pop the blade off and throw it in the dishwasher which is sweet I hate cleaning slicers I gotta tell you I do not like cleaning them. Yeah I got a really nasty cut one year uh doing that.
+
+[7:32] Ooh yeah yeah yeah um now obviously I'm not even gonna get it because I don't know the layout but like refrigeration's gonna be huge on you like getting like good cases because you're gonna throw a lot of money into electricity on on those cases over time and so even though like an old set of refrigerator cases might seem like a good bargain right now A like they might break on you more often I did I I've said this before I hate commercial refrigeration. I really do. But like you know uh good good refrigeration set up um you know that's not gonna go down and I don't know who's got the the the best one right now. Uh but you know those are like the heart right so you got your refrigeration set up you got your slicer then um on your cooking side stuff I would definitely invest in um in a couple especially if you're not gonna do you're not you said you're not gonna do a lot of hot side right away right yeah just get some get some decent induction ones like um you know there's actually you know it's interesting they uh uh brevel is that semi commercial semi pro like uh Philip Preston from Polyscience did some work with a new temperature controlled induction unit that's supposed to be pretty good uh at least he tells me so um that I think is r I I'm gonna say it's right in between the consumer and the pro range. Uh, but it could be good for swapping uh in and out.
+
+[8:54] Otherwise, most people I know use you know the big old uh cooktechs. You know what I mean? But they're not they're they're pretty expensive. Um whereas most of the other, you know, the smaller induction ones, the cheap ones, they'll get you can get away with them fine for a while, but they're not necessarily the best long term because they have a uh a fairly small heat ring so you can get some scorching uh if you're doing uh you know work uh that requires like saute or anything like that. They they can fuzz out on you uh over time if you're using them hard and and and intensively.
+
+[9:27] Uh but on the other hand, they're cheap like potato chips. You know what I mean? They're like a couple hundred bucks, so you can like rip through them um you know as you as you as you need to. Uh what else am I? I mean, if you're gonna do catering, I would get a vacuum bag, I would get a vacuum machine.
+
+[9:42] And if you're gonna get a vacuum machine uh in in your setup, I would not go for the smallest one. I don't think you need to get a really big one unless you're gonna be vacing down maybe you are. Maybe you're gonna be vacing down like whole uh roasts doing a a pre-circ on 'em and then a roast out later in i in an oven. I don't know. You know, that's something you should kind of look forward to because that's another large investment, a vacuum machine.
+
+[10:04] You're gonna probably need a hassle plan as well uh for it. But um the that's definitely gonna be useful both in a catering application uh for takeaway later and also if you ever and go to um the Underground Meat Collective section on their HACC because they do they do vacuum for takeaway. So then if you're gonna make your own products, do a slice down and a vac pack out so that you can push you y you don't wanna have to do all of your heavy slicing necessarily to order on something when you want to grab and go, and you might want to be able to pre-package something, in which case you're gonna need a decent vacuum machine. Right, right. So I was just looking at the uh you know, the mini pack lines um and the uh I think it's the the XT 45 um the MVS 45, uh, you know, it's trying to figure out like if that would be too big or if I can get away with something smaller, but you're saying don't don't go for the smallest.
+
+[10:54] No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no. No. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[10:57] The 45 is the smallest one for your application that I think I would go. That's the same size as the uh as on the um multivacts. That's the same size, I think as what, the 200? It's been a long time since I've shot. But yeah, that's the that's the small size.
+
+[11:11] That's the smallest one that I would go for. Because you know what? Like, do you really want to be in a situation where you know you saved because the price difference is not that big, right? And the size is not that much different. And do you really want in six months' time to say, I wish I could pack that down?
+
+[11:26] No, you don't. Right. Um what I used to recommend also, look a lot depends on what you're gonna do. So uh, you know, I had the the pleasure of having a dual uh dual bar setup in both machines that I was I was using, right? And the advantage of the dual bar having two bars in it is that you can seal two packages at once.
+
+[11:48] And that becomes a really big deal if you are gonna do packaging down of stuff for um for for sale, not just for like storage at the end of the night, but because like let's say your vacuum cycle time is like 40 seconds, 35, 30, somewhere between 30 and 40 seconds per, you know, in between each cycle, right? Which it could easily be, it could be longer even, uh, depending on what you're doing. So uh by having two bars where you can steal two packages at once, uh, you know, across from each other, you're you're cutting your packaging time in half. And if you've ever gone on a big packaging marathon where you're packaging package after package after package, uh then you know, it can be significant. The savings can be significant for not a not a huge initial extra investment.
+
+[12:40] Got it. And here's the thing. People are like, eh, meh, man, meh, eh, the bar. It takes up the extra bar, it takes up so much space. And in fact, that's crap, because you can just rip the bar out when you're not using it.
+
+[12:50] I've done it a billion times. You just rip the bar out when you're not using it, and then you have the full space where the other bar used to be. You know what I mean? For someone like you, I don't know that gas flush is going to be so important. You know, I don't know.
+
+[13:01] Like um I don't know that many people who use it all the time, but anyway, there you have it. All right, we got it. We had another caller who's been waiting. Oh, right. Thank you very much.
+
+[13:11] If you have any more questions, give us a call back. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dick, this is Anderson Sitzers. How you doing? I'm doing very well.
+
+[13:18] How are you today? Doing well. Um, so I got a question for you. I committed the card test in when um doing things at home where I didn't write down exactly what I had done to get a result. Right.
+
+[13:29] But I think I have this one pretty much nailed on. So um uh I'm a bartender and I used a recipe from Keller's uh French Laundry for the sheriff at the bar. Um I used a uh tall cherry pepper strip, which is uh teleterry, black peppercorns, raspberries, uh strawberry, sugar, water. Um and then he can kind of poach it uh for 45 minutes to keep it from getting cloudy. Right.
+
+[13:52] Um the ratio that he uses are gonna be he uses a pint of raspberry, pine of strawberries, cup of water, three quarter cup of sugar, which isn't gonna be nearly enough sugar um to get to a um uh a fifty bricks symbol. So I mean I've got a refresh hotter. Um kind of I was whenever the first time I made it, I just kind of was like throw some water and sugar in there, I'll just correct it whenever I'm done. And whenever it came out, I had developed a whole bunch of pectin in the syrup. So when I was blending it to get more sugar into it to correct the brick, um it created this really amazing stable foam on top.
+
+[14:31] Huh. Um that's super super delicious. Um then the second time I did it, it uh the foam wasn't stable. So what I'm thinking is that um I think what happened is I just develop developed more pectin the first time I did it. Um and I want to call you and ask you what kind of are the ideal conditions for developing pectin in fruits whenever you're making a syrup like that.
+
+[14:54] Right. Oh, and yeah. Sorry, real quick. The the way that I do it is uh like a double boiler method. So I put all my ingredients in the um mixing bowl over boiling hot water and just keep that hot so it pushes and has no chance of boiling.
+
+[15:07] Right. So what you want is like basically um not a full uh fully gelled, obviously, but like semi, right? So like the problem with that and and pectin is like you know, getting the ratios exactly right each time to make it to make it right. Now, in general, right, pectin uh the will form gels uh in situations where there uh is a high soluble solids, right? So lower water and uh usually a typically a lot of sugar.
+
+[15:38] That's why a lot of times when people try to make jellies and they're like, yeah, my jelly didn't set, it's because they don't have enough sugar in it, right? And the other thing is acid, right? So like l like maybe the batch that had the good pectin development was a little more acidic than normal, right? And then you doped it with extra sugar. So then you have a high sugar, high uh high acid situation.
+
+[15:59] Pectin loves a debt. You know what I mean? Uh and so it typically can have uh like ionic reactions as well, but I think typically you're you're gonna just look for high soluble solids and um and uh my brain. High soluble solids and and and acid conditions, and that's gonna uh you know, increase the uh set characteristics of your of your pectin. But that said, like wacky things happen with fresh fruit and you never know like if you got like a really good result, it's like super hard to uh duplicate it.
+
+[16:35] Right. Um I was using frozen raspberries and fresh strawberries whenever I did it. Um freezing could be wrong though. I often ask. Yeah.
+
+[16:47] Uh yeah. So what you're saying is just add a little bit of acid, like you have lemon juice or just citric acid or something, and that should help correct it. Well, I think once it's done, once it's cooked out, it's like, you know, it's it's probably cooked out. But you didn't write down the exact ratios you did that time. No, I that that's what I was talking about, just cardinal thin.
+
+[17:06] Um, I told you I've said it on the uh on the air, like, you know, there's recipes that I've never been able to achieve again ever. But a lot of these recipes with especially recipes that rely on hydrocolloids, like a lot of them are on a razor thin edge. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like and the problem with those is you could be chasing unicorns, right? So, you know, let's say let's say the the syrup that you did, even if you measured it exactly.
+
+[17:35] Let's say you're talking about a one in a hundred shot. Well, you can't you can't do you can't do a recipe based on a one in a hundred shot. You know what I mean? Right. Um, so you might want to think about uh just you know doping doping it with some uh foaming age.
+
+[17:52] I mean strawberry is pretty foamy anyway. Like even, you know, uh clarify clarify regular clarified strawberry is pretty foamy. So um, you know, strawberry soda foams like a mother. So does raspberry soda, really. You know, even if even when I hit it with uh pectanex.
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+[18:10] So it's um yeah, but getting it exactly the way you want it, I would consider just doping it with some with some you know some whipping agent and some uh I haven't I I've been looking into it. In fact, someone else asked last week about uh vegan egg replacers, and then I had a I had a uh a comment back in on the on the you know uh HMC additives. There's got to be a good thing just to add to make it happen. Because you don't want to rely, you don't want to rely on having to get something exactly right every time that is like on such a like a fine teeter totter, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[18:45] I I didn't realize that getting patched development would be that fine of a razor edge. Well, because you don't want it fully gelled. You want something in between. In between things are always the hardest. By the way, you the recipe that Keller has has you cooking the peppercorns for 40 minutes.
+
+[19:00] Or do you throw see here's the thing. So like Jeffrey Steingarden, you know, friend of the show, friend and friend of mine, uh, he once lamb basted me, lamb basted me for putting pepper into things uh early because he's like when you cook pepper that he doesn't talk to this. When you cook pepper that long, it's like all that's left is the is the bitterness, none of the aroma of the pepper. I'm like, you know, so what? Like, I still like to add pepper early because I kind of like that like harsh bitterness from the pepper, but if you considered like almost like dry hopping, like after the cook, like putting some grounds of pepper in right as you take it off, and then to get some sit, let's sit with the aroma in and then straining it off to get more of that fresh pepper aroma.
+
+[19:39] Because if you noticed that um the aroma of the pepper changes and drop and drops off and loses a lot of its kind of like uh you know interesting characteristics, especially if he's gonna go all the way to like specify telecherry over a different variety of pepper. I don't know why he's hating I don't know why he's hating on the malabar. But you know what, that's the thing, Stas. Remember we did all those pepper tastings back in the day? Stas has her I hate pepper tasting face.
+
+[20:04] You don't like pepper uh on butter? That was just boring. Everything, everything that requires sitting and like doing you hate. You hate. Anyways.
+
+[20:12] Uh point being that uh other peppers are also good. I know telecherry's got the got the name. You know what I'm saying? But you know, like we do a pepper tincture. You know what my favorite thing to add to any pepper tincture is?
+
+[20:25] Cubebs. I'm just gonna say it right there. Cubebs. Go. Have you have you played with cubebs?
+
+[20:31] I I have not. I just I have a uh take peppercorn tincture that we use at the bar. Uh put it in the atomyzer and use that um to kind of like a wrench tree in front of the glass. It's awesome. Yeah.
+
+[20:41] Anyway, that's my that's my that's my pepper go to of the of the, you know, because we you know, I'll do a pepper tincture and I'll throw in because you always have all those pepper like things sitting around, right? So you got like a couple different black peppers. Like uh typically the two that I'm using are the Malabar and the telecherry, and I forget the third one. We sometimes use some other ones, but those are the main two that I'm using. And uh you always have a little bit of the grains of paradise, although that's a very strong flavor.
+
+[21:05] Uh I sometimes have a little bit of the long pepper, which strangely, even though it's not really it's nowhere near the same flavor, the Romans like used it interchangeably with black pepper, according to the research that I have. Uh, and cubebs. And some combination of all those can make really interesting kind of peppery uh aromas. Awesome. Thank you so much.
+
+[21:26] I'll play around with that. Cool, thanks. All right. So uh hey Jack. He's not there.
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+[21:32] Oh, he's not there. So the maple syrup guys, you can take a maple syrup tour, huh? They're our sponsors today. Yes, that's true. What do you think about that?
+
+[21:39] What do you think about the maple syrup tour? I think it sounds great. They're their whole thing is they're like, you know, maple syrup is more than just um a condiment for pancakes. So they're they're like you get to tour the sugar shacks and they show you all these other products that they make with maple, like candies and things like that. Sugar shack sounds vaguely like you know, like some other stuff's gonna happen in there, don't you think?
+
+[21:59] I I it's a family show. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's well anyway. My point is I was thinking about this the other day, and I I'm such a jerk about it, but like I have not noticed any huge terroir phenomenon in maple syrup.
+
+[22:13] You know what I'm saying? It's like I've had maple syrup from Connecticut. You know what it tastes like? Maple syrup. Yeah, you know, Vermont, you know what Vermont maple syrup tastes like?
+
+[22:22] Well, have you ever done a tasting? Like a side by side? I'm saying I think we should. I think we should get these guys to send it in and do like a side by set. Now listen, the in like there's a huge difference between the different grades of maple syrup and like early season versus late season, right?
+
+[22:37] Because the earlier in the season, the clearer it runs, that's where you're getting your lighter syrups, and as the season goes on, it gets darker and darker until you get to the point where you get all those metallic tastes that even like below grade B, right, which are even too strong for me. Like I'm a solid B guy. I like B for eating, I like B for cooking, like I like B. You know what I mean? But um, but it seems to me those effects like swamp like any sort of uh like locale effect.
+
+[23:05] You know what I mean? What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I want someone to see. We're gonna have to do this.
+
+[23:10] We need someone to send in a tasting. You know what else I've really always wanted to do, always wanted to do. I've always wanted to get a bunch of uh maple sap and then uh concentrate it in a rotovat. We'll try to make it happen. Right?
+
+[23:26] To see like I want to know how much of the characteristic mapleness is because of the cooking itself versus just the extraction of water. You know what I'm saying? I'm sure someone out there has done uh evaporative boiling on this without heating it, but sorry, I gotta call her here. Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hey, it's Chris from Green Zone.
+
+[23:47] Hey, what's up? Hey, got a syrup question, actually. Oh, nice. I haven't had a chance to look at the uh at the video yet. I heard you sent it to Jack, but I haven't seen the uh the link yet on the on the coffee.
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+[23:56] Yeah, no worries. I just wanted to know what your go-to method for gum Arabic is, because I couldn't actually find one in Liquid Intelligence. Yeah. Yeah, I don't use it that often is why is why it's not in there. I did a bunch of tests once where I, you know, we did the heavy gum syrups and then um tried to see how much of a difference it made, and uh our impression was that you know we didn't love it enough to like it wasn't one of those things where I'm like my life has changed, and so now I'm gonna do it, which is why it's not not in there.
+
+[24:28] The gum Arabic I typically use is fairly uh, you know, uh tweaked out, like, you know, from like uh Ticoloid, those guys. So I use it mainly as a as a suspend as as an emulsion, right? So Yeah, I'm using it, yeah. I'm using it that way as well, also uh, you know, in method that I got from your book, but as far as the pure gum syrup, I was just kind of curious. Yeah, Wonderich has a uh a bunch.
+
+[24:50] Dave Wundrich has uh some gum syrup recipes that he published uh I think uh either it's either it's in bibe or it was one of the Esquire things he wrote about it, because I know he's a proponent of uh gum syrup. But you know, that the interesting thing about gum arabic is that you can put a preposterous amount of it into solution, right? I mean that's that's the kind of thing about it. It's like very, very high percentages of gum arabic um, you know, don't form an extremely uh viscous solution. And it's because um gum arabic uh is you know it's not a long chain polymer, it's not the way it works.
+
+[25:25] Right. Um so uh in your in your opinion, what do you think is a high proportion? Oh, well, I don't know, like I have like like I say, like I like I don't do it, so I don't even think but like over like you can easily do like ten percent, I think. I have never done it uh that high. Stas, remember we ran those tests?
+
+[25:46] You didn't really like it either, right? No. Um I don't really I never really liked it. That's the thing. Uh I think a lot of people also buy kind of like crap grades of gum arabic, and like they can have um you know different kind of uh tastes and they're kind of dark.
+
+[26:01] The stuff that I use is powdered and pure white. Yeah, that's what I have too. Yeah. And so, you know, look, here's what I think. Like uh, you know, use warm use uh hot hot water, right, right?
+
+[26:13] Bl blend it in, hydrate that sucker. Um I don't know whether mine is special that you don't have to heat it, like whether the stuff that I use is special, because I can't remember, but hot water is always gonna make it easier, right? Blend the hell out of it, get it, get it, then add your sugar to it. But start with a ridiculously high rate. This way you can kind of see what happens when you go overboard.
+
+[26:29] I always like to start with something ridiculous. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean I've actually followed um Jeff Morgenthaler's recipe, which is like six parts sugar to one part uh gum to two parts water, and it's just this ridiculous sludge. Yeah. Well, okay, so how how does the how does the recipe made?
+
+[26:52] Tell me the the steps. So he's well, I saw one thing online that said you can blend it and you don't have to wait, but Morgenthaler said do one part gum, one part water, let it sit overnight, it'll hydrate itself, and basically you just stir that into uh simple syrup, but he's using a three to one sugar to water ratio. Three to one. Three part sugar, one part water? Yeah.
+
+[27:17] No, no, no, no, no. That's it must be a misprint. Three part sugar, one part water? Yeah. No.
+
+[27:24] It's on his, it's uh it's on imbibe because they took it from the book and it's in the book, and you know, I don't know if this is a mistake. But yeah, this stuff is like super thick. No, there's no way. It would definitely not come out of a pour bottle. I would have to like spoon it into a drink.
+
+[27:38] Well, uh, I'd have to calculate the bricks on that. Three parts, well, we could do it, right? So it's it's 70 something bricks. I guess. Right?
+
+[27:50] Yeah. 75 bricks. So like think about this way honey is 82, right? And honey is completely inverted. If honey was uh had any sucrose remaining in it, right?
+
+[28:02] It would crystal it would crystallize instantly, right? Right. So you can't you can't have sucrose mixtures at that uh high of brick. I mean, really anything over above sixty six, sixty-eight is going to start throwing crystals off, so it's going to be difficult. You could boil it to get it uh in.
+
+[28:22] Does he boil it to get it in solution? No, I blended it. Wow. Yeah, I would imagine that that would be hard. Yeah, I mean I guess the point of the gum is that it keeps it from crystallizing.
+
+[28:34] Huh. I guess but it's still going to be I mean think about it. It's gonna be thick. Oh yeah it's super thick. I mean think about it this way right maple syrup is around sixty six bricks.
+
+[28:46] You know how that pours right you're adding a small amount of hydro to it which maybe it does stop crystallizing that's a good point right but the difference between 66 and 82 right is not that much when you think about how much water is and that's the difference between maple syrup and freaking honey. I gotta jump in the chat room is going nuts. It's two to one two to one that that makes a lot more sense. Two to one would work. Sugar to water that's what I guess the chat room is that's what they're saying yeah.
+
+[29:15] It's six six waters, three sugar, one gum. Now that would work that would definitely work. Let me look up that would definitely work. Because three is bonkers. I don't even know that I could get it I could get it dissolved only with heat.
+
+[29:28] But while we're going on this some tricks. So if you're having trouble getting your gum arabic into solution remember any hydrocolloid wants to go into water if at all possible so you want to you want to add the hydro before you add the sugar the exception to that is you can dry blend your hydrocolloid with some of the sugar, right? So you can like blend uh you can blend you know uh equal parts gum arabic and sugar, and what you're doing there is just helping the gum arabic particles stay separate from each other to help them hydrate. So that's a time honored technique. But you don't need to freaking do that if you have a vita prep.
+
+[30:05] You can just it is two to one if you consider that the the water that's already in the gum mixture. Oh, I see. So he says two ounces gum arabic hydrated with two ounces of water and then twelve ounces of sugar mixed with four ounces of water. That's a lot of gum Arabic. And plus I don't really I don't really like what is the purported benefit.
+
+[30:33] Does anyone in the chat room say that they love this stuff, that they use it every day, that it's the only syrup that they ever use, that this is like the love of their freaking life? Well, I'm using it at the bar tonight, so we're gonna find out. Yeah, it's just like you know what? Here's the other thing too. Like, what are you using it in?
+
+[30:47] Like, like a lot of times people would use these gum syrups for like freaking like stirred in bill drinks. Why? They just don't dispeak like a high brick syrup like that, doesn't dissolve in well. Are you shaking with it? What are you doing with it?
+
+[30:58] You know what I'm saying? If you're shaking with it, there's no freaking point. I don't see that much of a point in going that high of a bricks because you're shaking, you're gonna get all this extra dilution anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? Uh so you're you're you know, the the the reason, for instance, to go back to a completely different argument, has nothing to do with this.
+
+[31:15] The old fashioned argument, there's all these people who like to make old fashioned with sugar, right? And the idea there is that you are um not adding the extra water from the syrup. And all that means is is that you want that first sip to be preposterously boozy, right? I mean, that's yeah, that's really all that means. Uh I most people I know like a couple of sp even with syrup, like a cup, and it's only a tiny bit anyway, let's be honest.
+
+[31:44] A couple of stirs of the spoon anyway before they start drinking it. Most people except for hardcore, you know, booze hounds, and I know plenty, right? Yes, so do I want like a couple of uh spins of the spoon. Anyway, let us know what happens with the syrup. Jack, does anyone on the chat chat line say that they love love love it?
+
+[32:04] Let's see. Yeah. Uh no. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[32:08] I think it's one of the few nose. I'm trying to use it in actually a shake and drink, where I want a fair amount of viscosity and body. Yeah, but it doesn't add a lot of viscosity. That's the thing. That's a that's why I don't get it.
+
+[32:19] Like it's a really good emulsifier, right? Like if you were gonna make a citrus syrup or any of these other things, like it's a really good emulsifier to keep things like citrus oils suspended. Or if you're gonna have any Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? But like I I just don't get it.
+
+[32:33] I don't get it as uh a texturizer, because I think other things do that better. It's in its main characteristic is that it can go in high proportion without becoming too too viscous, and it's great emulsifier, but it's not really a foaming agent. Do you know? Um Yeah. I mean, I I'm gonna be shaking it up with milk and so that'll certainly help, I think.
+
+[32:56] Yeah, I mean, maybe it has interaction with milk. I don't know. I don't know. It's just one of those things I think it's one of those things that people do because they used to do it back in the old days. And like maybe maybe there was some reason to do it back in the old days.
+
+[33:08] Like, I don't know, maybe crystal inhibition, I don't know, I don't know what. But I just don't I don't love it. Cool. Well, I'll try it out tonight and you know how it goes. Alright.
+
+[33:18] Good luck. Okay. This is I do have another call. Alright, call caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, how's it going?
+
+[33:25] It's Anton from Boca. Hey, what's up? I was going. Yeah, I'm going to Japan on Thursday. I'm here for three weeks.
+
+[33:32] Uh I wanted to see uh if there's any place I can get an A Gmate fish at all. Oh no, any other recommendations of places uh of going to. So you're going to Tokyo? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[33:45] So I would definitely um I would definitely see if you could get a tour of uh Tsiji Market. Like Stas and I went on awesome tour there, but we had like we got we got you have to meet up with someone, right? Like we can't just tour it anymore. I don't know. Like who are are you going as part of uh for business or are you just going?
+
+[34:08] Just going. I believe I'm going to the tour of the market uh the second day I'm there. Yeah. So that that there is life-changing, right? And and like I don't know like if you speak or have someone translating, but let them know in advance what you kind of want to see.
+
+[34:25] Because everyone who's like, oh well, you know, someone's coming to the market, they want to see the tuna auction. And that's great. That's fine, awesome. But like you want to see people doing uh like the the different techniques like like like fish butchering, um, you know, Ikajima, which you can all see there. So if you just let like your the tour guide or the host know what it is you want to see, you know, um they'll they'll probably um show you.
+
+[34:50] So you know, then uh what time of year is it? Is it spring yet over there? Is it Hamo yet? I when we were there, what time of year were we there, Stas? It was a little later, right?
+
+[34:59] Yeah. It was all that freaking Hamo, all that like all that bone with the crunchy that's the thing. Everything's seasonal, so it depends on what's in season right now, is what you're gonna get a whole boatload of. Um anything you remember like particular places? No.
+
+[35:14] What was the one that Mark went to that he loves so much? He said it was the best place he's ever been. I don't remember. Oh man. When are you going?
+
+[35:20] Two weeks. I'm leaving Thursday. Yeah. Go to the chat. People should call in on the chat room and see uh who's good or like, you know, uh you know, we have some we have some crew over in Japan right now.
+
+[35:32] They should give you some recommendations on our chat room. We'll go uh to see. But all I'm saying is is that I would be very clear um what it is that you're interested in seeing when you go like on a food uh tour or or anything like this, because I think in general, like people who listen to this show have a different set of interests than the average tourist jackweed who shows up somewhere. And I think that in general people like cater towards even of things like the fish market to what the average jackweed wants. Gotta go with jackweed, huh?
+
+[36:04] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. And uh well, dude, it's not like you, Jack.
+
+[36:08] It's like oh. But uh I don't also know what the current exchange rate is, but like have someone take you to like the knife shops. I would go to the uh do you remember the name of the street, Stas with the big with the chef hat dude on it? No. There's a there's one street, and I want to say it's Kobayashi, but I made that up because uh it's like a Star Trek reference or something like that.
+
+[36:32] But like go the go to that street and like check out I love, absolutely love um seeing uh kitchen like commercial kitchen equipment uh districts in different countries. Every country I go, I try to go to uh market and to like a commercial um kitchen equipment outlet area. And I'm sure you'll find some fun stuff. Awesome. I know we're gonna go to the uh Yamazaki uh distillery and then uh hopefully try to see some sake uh brewery as well.
+
+[37:04] Oh nice. You know what I never went when I was there? I really wish I would like uh like good traditional miso production would be nice. I hear Yama I I've never been to uh Yamazaki, but I know people that have gone that uh I thought it was a great tour, so you know. Let us know what happens.
+
+[37:21] Fair enough. Sounds good, man. All right. Uh I'll let you know I'm fine. Thanks, man.
+
+[37:25] Alright, cool. Oh look, look, it's Peter Kim. Peter Kim. Oh Peter Kim. Shows up just in time to get the free lunch.
+
+[37:38] So Peter. So Peter. You know, Peter Kim, but I'm here for the pizza, not the friendship. Yeah. Do you want a menu, Peter?
+
+[37:44] Oh, Peter menu. The uh start with drinks. What are you doing? Are you the president or the director? Dude, uh who cares?
+
+[37:53] Yeah. Of the Museum of Food and Drink. How's it going over there? Yeah, man, it's alright. Yeah.
+
+[37:57] Still kicking. Yeah. Yeah. Not that you check on us that often. Oh, so last week they had a technical difficulty with some of you know, for those of you who don't know, Museum of Food and Drink open right now with uh an exhibit on uh the birth of the flavor industry.
+
+[38:12] And I heard you guys were having some technical problems with uh one of the machines. Did you get it fixed? Uh we're still troubleshooting it. Oh, son of a gun. I'm gonna have to go over there and fix it all right.
+
+[38:20] Oh yeah. I'm just saying. It's just the yeah, we've got grape. Everything smells like popcorn is one thing. So everything?
+
+[38:29] Well, it's just popcorn constantly comes up. Every time you press any button, we have this thing called the smellSynth. And uh it has nineteen different arcade buttons, releases different smells, and you can press them to create all these different flavor combinations. One of them releases Pyrazine, which has a popcorn smell to it. And for whatever reason, whenever you press any button, the pyrazine jar uh it shakes and there's a little air that goes through.
+
+[38:50] So there's a slight popcorn note to everything right now at the SmellSense. Did it so it seems like it's like a programming thing. Well, how could that be? Probably because I went in and tried to fround with it. Did someone actually try to fetch around with it?
+
+[39:05] I just want to see basically like the I think the best episodes of cooking issues are when Dave turns into incredible the incredible Hulk. Yeah. And so I basically just keep poking. It's like I take the sleeping lion and just keep like poking him with uh the broomstick. Could be worse, it could all smell like cheesy vomit.
+
+[39:22] Yeah, it's true. Which is another one of the buttons. Yeah, that's the one that actually runs out the fastest. Oh, really? Those people like the cheesy vomit?
+
+[39:28] Yeah, everybody. I watch this all the time where everybody's like, oh, cheesy vomit. I'll try it. And then you'll go you go back for it. Yeah, you can't.
+
+[39:36] Well, that's like I've always said, like when you're I don't want to get into it. Family show. Not family, it's just gross. Just gross. Like whenever you get let me put it this way whenever you get something nasty smelling on your finger, you have to smell it.
+
+[39:48] Wow. Actually, there are a small subset of the people who will not smell their finger before they clean it off. Yes. Yeah. Well, there is that classic saying that man with itchy butt has smelly finger.
+
+[40:01] Uh where is that a classic saying? In China. In the Kim household. Wow. We have one more caller if we want to.
+
+[40:08] All right, call on that note. Caller, you're on the air. Hello. Hello? Hey.
+
+[40:19] Hi. Hi, this is this is Bill from Fullerton, California. How are you doing? Wait, where's Fullerton? I'm a long where's Fullerton?
+
+[40:27] I'm a long time past listener, and so it's great to actually finally be talking to you live. Oh nice. Where's Fullerton? Fullerton is Orange County, south of LA. Alright.
+
+[40:37] So Stas knows it well. Are you close to her home home country of Covina? Um yeah, nearby. Nice. I realized that Covina is in a disproportionate number of movies that involve uh teenagers or anything else happening.
+
+[40:56] Like it's all like Good Burgers, Covina. Every time I watch a movie like that, it's Covina, Covina, Covina. You ever notice that? Uh I honestly haven't watched a lot of those movies. I I don't I'm not sure why.
+
+[41:07] Yeah. Strange. Alright, what's your question? Let's get to your question. Okay.
+
+[41:11] Um I'm wondering, and I I I I've listened to the back catalog, and I don't know if you've ever addressed this. Um I I really want to refill my soda stream bottle with dry ice. Oh. But I wanted your take on it, whether or not that was ex extremely dangerous to do. Yeah.
+
+[41:35] I'm gonna file that one under listen, I've seen the YouTube uh uh what's it calls, where people do that, right? Uh I'm gonna go ahead and file that one under not advisable. Because look, here's the here's the truth. And when Dave Arnold files something under not advisable, that is really not advisable. Yeah, because it's just, you know, you could get it wrong.
+
+[42:00] You know what I'm saying? It's like you know, theoretically it's all fine and good. You open it. Here's the other trick. You have to let the CO2 build up before you close it again, right?
+
+[42:09] Because you don't want any oxygen in there at all. So you have to you have to tear out your your your you have to open it, you have to tear out your bottle on a scale, right? And you have to get a scale that's gonna sit there long enough because you don't want the sucker like uh you know turning off. This is why I always advocate if you can afford having a plug-in scale, like get a plug-in scale so that it doesn't turn off on you. I hate when scales turn off in the middle of a measurement.
+
+[42:38] Hate. Uh so you get the scale there, it has to be enough to weigh the bottle and the contents that are in it. You tear it out empty, then you have to throw in your pre-weighed nuggets, right? You have to make sure it's the right weight, let it off gas for a little bit to clear out the the excess oxygen, and then and then cap it uh and pray that you've measured right. If you've measured right, it should all be good because you know how they fill CO2 tanks?
+
+[43:08] They fill them by weight, they don't fill them by volume or anything like that. Uh but I would say, and again, I'm not recommending you do this, but if you are gonna do it, I would always go a little bit under instead of a little bit over. Okay. A little bit over, very bad. Okay, well, I guess I won't do it then.
+
+[43:28] I I mean I I wasn't even sure uh if it would end up saving me money based on how much dry ice I would end up needing to buy. So I and then I was actually I was also actually curious if there was a built in safety valve to to make it more safe than j if there wasn't a safety valve. I answer is there is an there is uh now you're stretching my memory, there is an overpressure safety on those things, but uh I don't I don't think you want them to go off on you. You know what I mean? I think that little thing on the right is an overpressure safety.
+
+[43:59] That little little hex looking thing on the right is an overpressure safety thing. But I wouldn't want to rely on I think here's it here's the other thing. So like I fill my own CO2 tanks, my large CO2 tanks, right? Uh so I'll I'll have like one of the large cylinders and I'll fill smaller cylinders or I'll do gas mixtures in them. But I'm doing it like pretty carefully by weight.
+
+[44:22] And if you ever go that route, you know, that's also can be unsafe, and so I wouldn't recommend unless you look into it because you don't want to o overfill it. Um but what I would do is does your soda stream live in one space in your in your place? Or does it move around the house? Uh it just moves like from above my fridge to my counter to back up above my fridge. Okay.
+
+[44:46] So uh I'm sure someone out there has done this already, but it is rather trivial to just uh make an adapter to have it go to a real tank. Oh really? Yeah, done. Done. Then you just have the line running up to the soda stream, screw it on with the adapter, you're done.
+
+[45:06] Okay. Yeah. Where where would I find info on that? I don't know. Uh I should I'll I should look at it because I've had enough people ask me about it, but yeah, you could uh I don't know.
+
+[45:16] People have done it. The real problem is this. Like people it's very simple machine work job to do it, right? Very simple. And then people, because you know, they're not gonna sell that many of them, they need to charge an exorbitant amount of money.
+
+[45:31] So the question is, has anyone done it in like quantities large enough such that the price is reasonable? Like that's the that's the thing. But think about it this way. To me, like large tanks isn't just about price, although price is a factor. It's all about like how much do you hate those little bottles running out all the freaking time.
+
+[45:51] Totally. I know. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're like, well, I'm 15 bucks a pop.
+
+[45:56] Oh, jeez. Oh my god. Yeah. I I share this this struggle and all of that. That's a preposterous amount of money.
+
+[46:03] That's absurd. It's preposterous by design. Now, CO2 tanks, CO2, the price of CO2 has gone up recently over the past couple of years, but uh not by that much. You know what I mean? I think I pay I think I pay $15 now for like five or ten pounds of this stuff.
+
+[46:19] You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Yeah, my friend has the like the under-the-counter rig that uh that that uh per your instructions and and I think he does pay like just like about the same amount or a little more than what I pay for however much he has. I don't I'm not sure how much, but way more than me.
+
+[46:38] Yeah, so like the the rig that I use, right, which is the one with the carbonator caps and the bag and bottle things. Here's the problem with it. My entire family is so freaking nanny poo on carbonating that way. They're like, meh, it's so hard to put the valve onto the thing. Yeah, suck it up.
+
+[47:00] Suck it up. Oh, in my house in Connecticut. It's freaking suck it up. Like Dax, my you know, 11-year-old, he's like pushing on it, and like I'm just staring at him because he has to man up and like put the cap on the thing, right? Yeah, I can't just sit there and that one is very hard.
+
+[47:14] Oh, come on. That one is very hard. How hard can it be, Stuzz? Really hard. How hard can it be?
+
+[47:18] It's not like I'm like the strongest man on earth. I can make sells or not. You are the strongest man on the earth. Anyway, my point being that uh that some people in your family might go a little nanny poo on it, and like they have to go through like rig and roll every time. For me, it's easy.
+
+[47:29] Like carbonating that way is just as easy as carbonating in a soda stream. In fact, easier because I can do it and leave it in the fridge, all kinds of stuff. But just be aware if you do switch to a uh a carbonator cap setup, be ready for some nanny poo from your family. Okay. Noted.
+
+[47:48] Yeah. Alrighty. Good luck with it. Thank you. Long live Indy Jesus.
+
+[47:53] Oh, I wish we still had Indy Jesus. Where is he, Jack? Uh that's a great question. I'm sure he's doing well though. Can I share a quick story?
+
+[48:00] So somebody who I won't name that works next door at the takeout spot came up to me and they were like, hey, so well wow, maybe I shouldn't tell this whole story. Long long story short, they say, um, who's who is uh Santa's little hipster? Oh and I'm like, how did you know about that? And they're like, well, somebody that I know is a fan of the show, and they asked me to find out who Santa's. I haven't seen Santa's little hipster in a long time.
+
+[48:30] Not working here anymore. Is it is he We're kind of like without a new character, you know? We gotta find that person. Yeah, we gotta f we gotta find someone, yeah, who's like worthy of uh of Stas's you know fertile ire. Yeah.
+
+[48:44] Yeah. Yeah. Alright, cool. A few minutes here. Alright, okay.
+
+[48:48] So let me get some of the questions. Uh hey guys, this is Steve Yoon from Los Angeles. A few weeks ago, Johnny Hunter revealed on your show that he had developed a way to make black garlic in three days, and that he would be revealing it at a MoFat event and possibly on the radio show later. Can you bug him for his recipe again? Uh me and several uh friends are anxiously waiting with our ears stuck to the radio, waiting to see if the quick black garlic recipe would become public.
+
+[49:11] My mom makes it all the time in her rice cooker and taught me that the typical it taught me the typical three-week method. I'd like to be able to blow her mind once by making it over the weekend while visiting her. Ah, okay, listen. We have to get uh Johnny said he made it public. Is that stuff on the air?
+
+[49:25] Is that can you go watch that demo? No. Did he videotape that demo? No. Er, so nice.
+
+[49:34] Thanks. Yeah. So yeah, well, but we could we can get it from Johnny. Yeah, I mean, roughly what he does is he doesn't use a rice cooker, he uses a crock pot. He breaks the leaves the garlic in the skins, breaks it up, like mists it a little bit, right, with water, wraps it in moist paper towels, and then puts it in aluminum foil in the crock pot, closes the crock pot, hits go, and then has there's a towel, I think also in the crock pot of moist towel, and then just keeps re-upping that and like overturning it like once a day or so and goes.
+
+[50:02] That's roughly what he does. Yeah. Something like that. Yep. Yeah.
+
+[50:06] But we'll get uh Johnny to uh call us because he did say he was gonna make it public, and so maybe we'll get him to call in uh like you know next week, the week after, and and you know, just go through it really quickly. But that's the gist. Yeah. You have his contact info man? Yeah.
+
+[50:20] All right, cool. I think Stas is gonna do it. You know, like I have I don't call I don't even call my family. Yeah. You know, I don't call people.
+
+[50:28] Do I look like I call people? Stas, do I call people? Nope. No. Uh let's see.
+
+[50:35] Um, dear Jack, on a food website. Dear me, huh? Yeah, dear you. Uh uh, Stella Culinary. I asked the founder if he agreed with blast chilling sous vide proteins.
+
+[50:46] He quoted uh Dave Arnold. He said, Dave Arnold says a slower chill is best for texture and flavor. If at all possible, please ask why slow chill is best. Thanks, Joan. Okay, here's the deal.
+
+[50:57] I didn't used to believe this was the case. This is actually Bruno Gusseau's uh thing, you know, Bruno Gusso, the grandpappy of uh low temperature cooking. And so he he always said that you want to ramp the uh cooling down, and the reason is is that as meat is passing through a particular temperature, he always said it was somewhere around 50 degrees Celsius. As the meat is passing through that uh temperature, it's absorbing the liquids that it's expelled during uh the cook, right? And so if you rapidly force meat from cook temperature down, it won't have the time to reabsorb that because at low temperatures it won't reabsorb the liquids, uh, and obviously at high temperatures it won't reabsorb the liquids.
+
+[51:43] And so, you know, he used to um advocate uh three-step chilling where he would take the bags out, leave them on the counter, because air is rub very not very good at uh uh heat conductor, so it doesn't cool, it doesn't have a it doesn't cool it off very quickly. Then he would after 15 or 20 minutes, depending on how thick it was, he would put it into tap water, uh, you know, like room temperature tap water to bring it down to that, and then after that he would ice it down. And so what I would say is that blast chilling is great once it's in, once it's done its initial chilling. So once it's initially chilled down, right, and it's reabsorbed whatever juices it's going to reabsorb, once it gets down to, you know, in the kind of room temperature uh or not even a little warmer than room temperature, then you could hit it in the blast chill and take it down like a rock. What do you think, Jack?
+
+[52:31] Did I answer the question? I think so. All right. Uh that's that's gonna be about it. Alright, so next week we'll have to get to uh we had a we had a you know a a Leahy Bitman style no need bread question, which we have to get to.
+
+[52:43] And we have a mock tail, and we have a mocktail question. Mock Duck. Uh Mock Duck, interesting. You want to talk about you have five seconds to discuss discuss mock duck. Not mock duck, the excellent.
+
+[52:55] By the way, uh I in general don't like fake vegetarian stuff, but some traditional stuff. I think mock duck is delicious. Like actual mock duck. Delicious. Um I have some uh egg white questions, I have some I have some good stuff and how how to hack how well to hack your uh your soda siphons and your your EC bottles.
+
+[53:16] There are some tricks. Uh we'll get to it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[53:40] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Thurman Maple Days. Celebrate flowing of sap in the Adirondacks, self-guiding to seven sites for talks, tours, tastes, and old fashioned friendliness. For more information, visit thurman Maple Days.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:19] If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Richards coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday. This time a little late. Well, you know, whatever.
+
+[0:39] But noonish to like late. This is your normal time. Well, but I feel like it's late because we have a guest today. That's true. On Harry's Radio Network, uh uh broadcasting from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:50] Joined as usual with Nastasia, the hammer. Lopez, how are you doing, Stuff? Good. We got Jackie Molecules in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[0:56] Um great. Just got back from Charleston. Oh yeah, how was it? It was good. Yeah?
+
+[1:00] Yeah. I get I I I got there early and drove through the low country to all those weird little islands. Uh well, let's talk about that in a second. We have special guest in the studio. Uh the maestro of the food lab, which sold uh how many billion copies did you sell a lot, Kenji?
+
+[1:14] Not quite a billion yet, but we're we're working on it. Kenji Lopez all billion billion selling book. New York Times bestseller, though, right? Uh yeah, yeah, for a little while. Nice.
+
+[1:22] Nice. Yeah, I think it was something like a billion. In fact, uh we share a publisher and uh editor. Yeah, an editor, yeah. Uh I I don't even I I think of her as like the whole the kind of face, Maria Gornichelli, you know, uh world renowned uh editor.
+
+[1:36] Anyway, so like your the success of your book actually got her off my back for a while because she's not wasn't for a while worried about my second book because of the enormous success. You have a second book come in or uh well yeah, yes. Cocktails also no, no, not no cocktails. No cocktails, no recipes, I think. Oh, okay.
+
+[1:55] Yeah. Uh like food ramps, maybe. Yeah, maybe self helps. Adult coloring books. I'd have to have Nastasia do them and then steal her ideas because Nastasia is the Nastasia's the line drawing queen.
+
+[2:08] Oh, yeah. I mean, I could get my wife to do it, but that would be weird. It'd be easier. Like we could just come out with a book together and this I could just say, do this, and Nastasia would do the line drawings. One of the very one of the lesser known Nastasia Lopez skills.
+
+[2:20] Yeah, I never would have guessed that. Yeah, no, it's true. Nastasia is a uh is a uh inveterate uh doodler, and you like working in pen, right? Yeah, I do. Like not pencil, pen.
+
+[2:31] Pen. Pen. She's a pen worker, likes pens. Um give a rat's ass about fancy rats behind, rather. No.
+
+[2:39] Family show. About you're like, you know, any old, any old bic, any old bick will do. Uh so Jack, so now that we uh now that we're all here, so tell us about the islands. You went to uh which islands did you go to? Edisto Island and St.
+
+[2:51] Helena Island. Yeah? Yeah. Is that where like all the the gulla stuff's happening? Uh-huh.
+
+[2:56] Yeah. I got some frogmore stew. Yeah. What's in Frogmore stew? It's like uh just shrimp uh that you have to peel yourself and like uh boiled potatoes and corn, that kind of thing.
+
+[3:06] Uh presumably it doesn't taste like uh the Cape Cod version of that though. Uh no, it did well, you know. I can't say that I've ever really spent much time in Cape Cod. What? Yeah.
+
+[3:16] I know, it's weird, right? What's your Cape Cod equivalent? You what what's your East Co what's your northeast beach mentality basically? Well, like I'm from Long Island, you know? Alright, so it's the same crap.
+
+[3:25] I guess so. It's all the same crap. Where on Long Island? I'm from a place called West Babylon, so it's like uh South Shore border of Nassau Suffolk, kind of right in the middle. So you're you're not really a beach thing.
+
+[3:39] But you drive out to Montauk. Yeah. And hang out with Billy Joel or something. Wow, oh yeah. Oh you know, I've never been to Montreal.
+
+[3:44] I really don't like Billy Joel, actually. You don't like Bill Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? I'm sorry. Whoa. Stas, you hear that?
+
+[3:49] I heard that. Sorry, Stas. Yeah. Stas, huge Billy Joel fan. I actually uh like how I was from the West Coast, so it's like Yeah, but how can you come from Long Island and not like Billy Joel?
+
+[3:59] It doesn't make any freaking sense. Because I always hated Long Island, even when I was a kid. Well, I mean, you know, I came from I came from Jersey, you know, back in the day. That's when I went to elementary school. I still like Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen.
+
+[4:12] I was gonna say and Bruce, yeah? Yeah. Well, I didn't like Bon Jovi at the time, but with age comes perspective on how kind of perfect uh slippery when wet is like almost like, you know, Moses came down and was like slippery when wet. You know what I mean? It's like when you think about the perfection of like the it's like you know the childhood fan it's uh it's awesome.
+
+[4:34] You know what I mean? Like I didn't like it at the time. I'm more of a Springsteen's f fan than Joe Bon Jovi, actually. Yeah. Are you from Jersey?
+
+[4:40] Uh no, I'm from New York. Oh. Well, yeah, yeah. So you get to look down on us folk who live in where New York originally. Um I grew up in Harlem.
+
+[4:48] Oh yeah, real New York, yeah. So you're one of those city kids that I hated. Yeah. Yeah. Now now my kids are those city kids.
+
+[4:55] But I think I think I've said this before. I think it's uh it's a lot different now because you can be cool and like live in the suburbs now because of the internet. Right, right. You can be cool anywhere these days. Yeah, whereas back in the day, you know, we felt like losers.
+
+[5:08] Like us suburban kids, we felt like losers. What about you and Covina, Stas? Loser. Loser. Although the the internet was around when?
+
+[5:15] When you were in high school it happened? Too late though for you. Senior year, yeah. Yeah. The internet didn't happen until basically I was done with college.
+
+[5:23] I I got I got email when I was in high school, but it it was like internal email in the school. I literally remember when like I saw the first email I'd ever seen, and by the way, you know the guy that invented email just died like two days ago. Really? Yeah. I forget his name.
+
+[5:37] He died, like he was like seventy-four, he died like two two days ago. And uh, you know, he popularized the at symbol, the whole thing, like invented email. Uh, I remember in like way before anyone had or cared about email when there was like, you know, like a hundred people with email addresses. I was a junior in high school. This is in like eighty seven, eighty eight, something like that.
+
+[5:55] And uh this guy was like, I have this thing called email watch. And he like typed an email, and I was like, this is worthless. I was like, who's ever gonna use this crap? This is garbage. Nonsense.
+
+[6:07] Man. Did he send it to you from his Apple Newton? Uh, that was that was early 90s, right? We had a 2E. We had two E.
+
+[6:14] He it was an Apple IIe, which of course, you know, I coveted because of the green screen so much better than my Radio Shack TRS 80 computer. And uh uh but I just remember thinking this is not gonna go anywhere. No, no. This is worthless. It's like watching TV on the internet.
+
+[6:30] Yeah, I forget that dude's name, but I hope he's a billionaire. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Anyway. He deserves it.
+
+[6:37] You know, being an early adopter or something like email, you should win something for that. Yeah, you probably get a cooler email address. Yeah, he's John 01 instead of John 387. Yeah, well, this is you know, obviously, this is way pre there was no WWW at that time. Literally, you had to like know exactly where someone was and send them an email.
+
+[6:58] You know what I mean? Uh dumb. Okay. Um so you have anything you want to uh plug about the book? Anything specific you want to talk about?
+
+[7:05] Anything No. I mean, I don't know. Buy it if you want to, don't if you don't. Well, anyway. Call your questions to Kenji at 7184972128.
+
+[7:14] That's 718497 2128. Alright, so let's uh let's hit some stuff that we uh have here. Can I actually like jump the line? Because I have something that I'm I'm interested in hearing both of you talk about. All right.
+
+[7:24] Is that cool? Sure. So there's all these articles about um bay leaves lately that I've been reading, and um kind of like challenging the notion that they actually do anything right in a big you know stat or I mean they taste like bay. Yeah. Have you seen this, Kenji?
+
+[7:42] You've have you seen these arguments? I I I have had people ask me I I actually wrote a I wrote an article like a couple years ago called What's what it was it was a question I got from a from a reader, and the question was what's the point of bay leaves? Because they taste like bay. They do, yeah. You can taste it.
+
+[7:55] And and and of course, like depending on where you get your bay leaves, whether it's like a Turkish bay leaf, which is what general the what you generally find dried, versus like a California bay leaf, which you find fresh, like they have different flavors, but they yeah, they they definitely have flavor to dishes. You can you can tell the difference side by side if you taste. They are merely the most popular of the aromatic leaves, which almost all of the all of this style of aromatic tree leaf come from the um the laurel family, right? So you have aromatic avocado leaves, whereas some aren't, which I believe are the same family as bay. Are they?
+
+[8:24] I think. I don't know that they're all in the same family, but I know Lauriacy has I'm pretty sure. I I gotta go look it up because I wasn't expecting to talk about it. But like there's a lot of aromatic leaves in that in that kind of family. I don't know whether like sassafras and spice bush are in the same general family, but like a lot of those, uh, you know, that family has these kind of aromatic leaves.
+
+[8:43] And uh of course they make a difference. Now the crappier the leaf is. Let me give you an example. I have some crappy, you know, spice spice class. That's a brand of spice right here.
+
+[8:54] Spice class. Uh so I have like crappy spice b uh class bay leaves, and so I have to use like four or five times as many of those to get the same flavor. To get the same flavor. And they're a pain, so I tend to tie them up by the by the you know the stuff. Yeah, and then throw them in like larger quantities.
+
+[9:12] But uh perhaps you've heard of the spice jack old bay, which is like has like a huge hit of ground up bay in it. Bay is a sp to be clear, I can taste when bay leaves are used. I'm saying that there were a lot of articles posted. A lot of my friends were sharing. It was on the owl.
+
+[9:28] But who wrote it? What's the owl? Yeah, well, was it was it some like angry internet person just trying to make angry internet? It was like part humor, but also it's a blog. You know, you know the the one one thing about bay leaves though, um, and is that uh and this is different from most other herbs, is that um you know the well, similarly to most other herbs, there is a big difference between dried and fresh, but uh uh but the difference in bay leaves is that the dried versions are almost always the Turkish bay leaves, and the fresh versions are almost always California bay leaves, and they have a very different flavor.
+
+[9:56] Like the California bay leaves have a much stronger sort of eucalyptus. It's not the same plant, right? Yeah, it's not even the same plant. Yeah, yeah. They're both sold as bay leaves.
+
+[10:03] So a lot of people say, oh, the fresh bay leaves are always better than the dry, but but that's not always the case because it adds a flavor that's quite different from a standard bay flavor. So I I almost always use dry dry bay leaves that I store in the freezer. Well, fres you know this is a huge misconception people have about everything in the world that fresh is better than uh dry. Yeah, it's like it dep they're almost always different. And so anything that is sometimes something is different and worse.
+
+[10:29] Sometimes it's just different. Sometimes it's just different. Like ginger, like fresh ginger versus dried ginger. Different. Totally different.
+
+[10:34] Dried basil, bad. Dried basil bad. Dried parsley. Dried chives, not good. I haven't tried really dried chives, freeze dried chives I've had.
+
+[10:43] You know what? Like uh we're talking if you go and buy a bottle of uh spice glass. Oh, spice glass. You know, I got in big trouble with uh with my wife because did I talk about this? Maybe.
+
+[10:53] Because uh, you know, I I've been saying we've been doing the uh the 70-style potato bars recently, you know, where you just make a big ass big baked potato and then you're gonna be. Oh, right, right, right, yeah. It's like taco night. Yeah, it's like taco night, but it's like baked potato night. Because I'm like, you know, whatever, we're bringing it back.
+
+[11:06] And um so my wife was cutting up the chives and she did like the ultimate chive like horror show of chopping them long. I I I kind of like that sometimes, like in a soup or something like that. They have no flavor when you chop them long. The chive flavor, yeah, but then they stick in your teeth. I don't know.
+
+[11:26] I'm not a but you know what you shouldn't do? You shouldn't like you shouldn't look at your the chives that your wife has chopped and being like, what the hell are you doing with these chives? Why? Look, on a baked potato it's better than crushing them, at least with the donuts. Yeah, that was the the the first like fancy restaurant job I had um on my first day and on my first day of service, I was chopping chives with a line, and I had no idea what I was doing then.
+
+[11:50] And and the chef, um Barbara Lynch is uh number nine part because the chef, like she walked by my station while I was chopping the the chives and without even looking at me, like just hearing the sound the chives were making as I was chopping them, she's like, You're doing those wrong. Throw them out because you could hear the kind of crumbles. Yeah, the crushing noise. The crushing noise, yeah. Because I was crushing them instead of slicing them.
+
+[12:07] Yeah, yeah. Well, I like I like thin small discs, like th like two little tiny. You want them to be sliced thinner than they are wise. That's the best. I like although they're a pain to dose out like that, because they tend to stick in clump if you do it ahead.
+
+[12:23] But that's life. Big city. Especially if you crush it. If you slice it. Yeah, if your knife is sharp and you slice well and they they stay nice and separate, I think.
+
+[12:32] Now let me ask you this. So chives, would you ever use it's not true. So obviously, like the application for blended chives is ranch dressing, right? So ranch dressing, dill chives and other stuff. But in general, is chive ever it's they're expensive, so is it worthwhile to ever blend would you ever blend it or you use a different allium for that?
+
+[12:49] I wouldn't. I mean, you know, I've seen like chive oil, right? And you blend chives there, but uh you never make it though. Do you ever make that stuff? No.
+
+[12:56] I mean I didn't think like I did in like yeah, like the early 2000s in restaurants, chive oil color on the soup. Yeah, but could you cheat on the chive oil and really use a different allium and scallion tops? Probably. But scalli, I mean scallions taste a little different, don't they? In the oil?
+
+[13:10] I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they don't. I think it's just one of those things that people used to do. Maybe maybe chives are a myth.
+
+[13:16] Maybe maybe there's no point in chives. No, chives they're good. I like chives. Stas, are you chival fan? Yeah.
+
+[13:20] Yeah. Stas likes the chive. But anyway, this thing about bay, who's the owl? Who's this blogger? Who's the owl?
+
+[13:26] Do we know them? No, we don't we don't know them. Um let's see. This is like saying Kelly Kelly Conoboy. This is like saying, Oh, we have you know, wine.
+
+[13:36] Flavor? You're like, yeah, yeah, wine has a flavor. What are you talking about? Bay leaf. Like, did this person have like a negative experience with bay leaves?
+
+[13:46] Do they think it's a scam? Are these like the kind of people that don't like modern art because they think the wool is being pulled over their eyes? It could they it could be someone who has your spice class bay leaves who use one one bay leaf in a soup and don't notice it because it's a shitty bay leaf. That's true. I think that's the issue.
+
+[14:00] I do think that's the issue. Yeah, then fine. Use the answer is use more. The good thing about bay is that um yeah, most recipes tell you to use a bay leaf or two, and that won't really do much with most of the bay leaves, the low quality bay leaves that that people have. So I invariably triple the amount that the recipe calls for.
+
+[14:20] And bay leaf is not the kind of thing that rides unless you go way over. It doesn't really ride over the top. Right. Um, but like you can't like I can't I never make a stock without bay. I I very rarely make like a super stew or anything like that without bay in it.
+
+[14:38] Rarely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's good. And like the whole point of it is it's an integrative spice. So it's not supposed to, it's not like Nastasia's least favorite, cumin, which is like supposed to hit you on the head.
+
+[14:50] You know what I mean? Right. It boosts boosts other flavors pretty well. Stas, why don't you like cumin? I don't know.
+
+[14:56] We've gone through it before. I don't want to. I know I know. There was a comment in the chat room, uh they said, How about getting Kenji to talk about his vegan month just for Nastasia's benefit? All right, but before we do that, Jack, uh we had a I had a comment in on the on the Twitter from uh geek girl with a number, which I forget the number.
+
+[15:12] Anyway, she wants to know how to get on the chat rooms because apparently we're not making it like clear how to get onto the chat rooms. Oh, it's clear how to get in the chat room. Well, tell her how to get on the freaking chat rooms. I think this person emailed us and then said they could figure it out. So you go to the website, you click play, okay and it's gonna pop up with a player.
+
+[15:29] And then uh play the chats? They're like a report. Well, I need to pull up the live stream first. Uh and then uh, you know, you just click on the heritage radio logo right there and it pulls up the chat room. There you go.
+
+[15:39] You could also go to mixler.com slash heritage dash radio dash network if uh you want to go manual with it there. Mixler. Mixler. That's the yeah. Sounds like the sounds like a like a Flintstones character.
+
+[15:52] Kind of does. I have a caller if you want to take the call. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave and Kenji. It's uh Alex from Santa Barbara.
+
+[15:59] How's it going? And I was wondering um settled debate for me about the liquid smoke brine versus actually smoking, because it's been coming up a lot that you can get pretty close to there with liquid smoke and a little bit of nitrate in your brine for let's say 48 hours, and then you low temp out for 36 on, let's say, you know, a brisket. And it's basically the same. And I don't believe it, but I've never done a side by side. And I want you guys to explain the math to me.
+
+[16:29] But who said it was the same? Uh like chef steps and or close enough to be the same. Yeah. I've said similar things. Not um I I I said similar things in a sous-view um pork uh rib recipe I wrote uh a couple months ago.
+
+[16:42] Um it's I mean it's not exactly the same. And it's it's it's not exactly the same in the same way that like anything you cook sous-vide is not going to be exactly the same as something you cook via another method, right? Like sous vide brisket is sous vide brisket. It doesn't it's not exactly the same as barbecue brisket. Not at all the same.
+
+[16:56] Yeah, but that doesn't mean uh I don't think that means better or worse. But as far as the smoke flavor goes, um I mean you can you can get smoke flavor from a liquid smoke brine. Um that that will I mean that will make people think that it was smoked. Well I mean you don't get like bark development. Right, like things like that.
+
+[17:13] But but it is it is it is literally the same stuff that that is getting deposited on your meat while you're smoking it. Minus some stuff. Minus some stuff. And you and usually you'll get my question right there. Yeah.
+
+[17:23] Where it's what's the minus stuff that would be I could taste the difference. I mean I know you're gonna get different product depending on how you cook it, but just the flavor of the smoke. They get they get rid of uh a lot of the theoretically cancer causing like polycyclic hydrocarbon stuff, uh right? Isn't that like I think so, yeah. And then they they also you know the the the issue is usually you're in an oil phase or a water phase, because most they're not so like presumably some is gonna s like some smoke compounds like would uh would gravitate towards the oil phase versus the water, so you're probably only getting the water phase stuff.
+
+[17:56] Right. But but when you're but when you're s when you're smoking in a smoker, you're all mostly getting only water phase stuff anyway, because the the smoke is being transported by the moist air, right? Well, but there's this actual particulate matter as well. Right, right, right. There's some.
+
+[18:09] You know, and so like like you know, I you noticed like uh, you know, when the chefs used to use the smoking gun, do they use any more? I think some people do. Yeah. You would notice that like the particulate matter would settle out after a couple of minutes, but the smoke aroma would stay in the in the thing because there is like a heavy kind of a particulate thing. But I mean the the truth of the matter is is that smoking does a number of things besides imparting flavor, right?
+
+[18:33] So you're being exposed to a particular uh a particular atmosphere, you're being exposed to a particular temperature at a particular humidity, and so you know, like Kenji was saying, like you get the the bark. So different things happen from a textual standpoint that are a lot of times difficult to um separate from uh from just the flavor. From just the flavor. And especially especially with things like crust development, it's virtually impossible to separate the like uh the textural difference uh and the the cooking difference uh from the flavor. It's just not not possible.
+
+[19:06] Right, right. And the other thing to be aware of is that liquid smoke is produced at a very specific temperature for a very specific thing. So you smoking something for real might be different if your temperatures are high or lower, you're using a different you're gonna generate different kinds of compounds because pyrolysis, very, very complicated stuff is happening. Um The other thing is that I find that like uh smoke applications, more maybe with powder than with the liquids, it's super easy to overdose on it and it goes like bitter. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:34] Yeah, and and people I think people do often overdose on smoke. But I think people often also overdose on smoke when they're when they're actually smoking things too. Right. Um because I I always think I mean the smoke should be it should be seasoning like like like cumin or or bay leaf or whatever. You know, it's it should be seasoning, it shouldn't be the only thing you taste in there.
+
+[19:52] Um but but I will I will tell you that you know, in in in the testing I've done for for you know getting smoke flavor into meat thro through methods that aren't smoking, that brining in a liqu in a in a brine with liquid smoke, I think is is the most effective way to keep it subtle and to get good penetration without you know it's it's very different to do that than to say like add liquid smoke straight to like a barbecue sauce, which you just paint on the surface. Um brining it overnight in a in a in a in a brine with liquid smoke gets you a much more sort of natural tasting smoke penetration. I'm gonna get my behind kicked. I don't really like barbecue sauce. Well, what kind of like Kansas City?
+
+[20:25] Like I'm gonna be able to do that. I know I just don't I don't like goopy, yeah, I don't like goopy. Yeah, I'm I'm more of like uh like a um you know vina like a vinegar sauce. Yeah, yeah. I don't even consider like I know that they do I I consider that like red pepper and vinegar.
+
+[20:38] Like I don't consider that pepper vinegar a little sh a little sugar, maybe, but yeah. I don't consider that like when someone says barbecue sauce, you're thinking Kansas City style ketchup and molasses. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not I'm not a huge fan of that. I like it on French fries.
+
+[20:53] Okay. You know what I mean? Like I think it's okay as like, you know, kind of a uh a secondary catch up. Yeah. But I just not I'm with you on that too.
+
+[21:03] Yeah. And people love it. I'm gonna get my like I'm I'm happy that you like it whoever you are that likes of it. I'm not against it in theory. It's just not my it's not my cup of tea on on meat.
+
+[21:15] I have another collar. Sure. Caller, you're on the air. Uh yeah, Dave. Uh Dan Seattle.
+
+[21:21] Uh couple of pressure canner questions. Okay. Uh so first of all, I got a very b a big new all aluminum uh uh pressure canner for Christmas. Made by American Canner Corp? Yep.
+
+[21:34] Yep. Um so my my first question is can I make the stock in it before I put it in jars? I mean, is does the barrel aluminum really matter much if for stock? Well it depends on what you believe. Like if if you believe that aluminum is bad to cook in, then it matters.
+
+[21:54] If you don't, as I don't, then uh you know y y it won't bother you. I mean, flavor wise, I don't think you're gonna taste aluminum in your stock. Yeah, not in the stock. Okay. I mean the the hard part about uh even like small amounts of like uh you know, in some classic stocks it'll be like a couple tomatoes, but does it it's not gonna do anything.
+
+[22:18] You know what I mean? But the the um I wouldn't use I guess you can't fit it in the dishwasher anyway, because it's so big. I was gonna say like like where you don't want to do on that is like uh harsh detergents on it because it's I believe it's cast and so it'll get porous and pitted after a while at the bottom and but I cooked. Yeah. I mean the the the hard part about the pressure canners, uh, if you're using them to do anything other than straight canning, is that they are a huge ship to steer.
+
+[22:55] So uh, you know, uh on a level of difficulty of getting the right heat input, I'd say it's like twice as difficult as like with a regular pressure cooker to get the the heat input correct. Just because of its volume, you mean yeah, yeah, just because it's so hard to read the slope right. You know, whereas like uh a normal pressure cooker responds within a minute or two, like this guy could have like, you know, four or five minutes of ride up and down. Right. So it takes a while to kind of dial it in.
+
+[23:23] So like what I would do is the first couple times you use it, I would uh kind of keep track of where your settings are based on how much you have in it, because that's pretty much you know, assuming that you use relatively constant loads. Yeah. Also, that thing's a pain. You ever use one of those things, Kenji? Mm-hmm.
+
+[23:43] They're a pain to close all of those screws. I mean, look, oh yeah, I've seen those. Nothing else can do what they can do. They're huge volume. Right.
+
+[23:50] You know, pressure cooker canners. But do you have the regular canner lid or do you have the sterilization lid for it? Uh uh the what what? Do you have the regular canning lid for it or the sterilization lid with the tube? Uh the regular, right?
+
+[24:04] Yeah, yeah. The sterilization lid is a is it's creepy. How does that work? So they're really if you're gonna use it as a sterilizer, which I guess some people do in places uh I don't know where who don't have the sterilizers, they uh they're worried that there'll be pockets um of gas in it that that will cause it to not go through the sterilization procedure at the same way. So they have a they have a tube that extends down that you have to like vent out the tube to get rid of uh entrained non steam gases before you crank the stuff.
+
+[24:33] But remember what a nightmare that was to us? Yeah. And we crushed the tube and we were yelling at each other and screaming and nightmare. Nightmare. I I use like pretty much exclusively electric pressure cookers now because one uh I right now I have I'm using the Brevel Pro which um which has like full manual you can I mean it only goes up to 12 psi which most electric cookers do but you can get anywhere from anywhere from 1.5 to 12 at half psi in increments.
+
+[24:59] Can you hack it like the Quezen art? I don't know. I haven't tried um but it but it also has like automatic altitude adjustment and like and automatic pressure release and stuff which is pretty nice. Automatic altitude adjustment so it'll go so yeah that that's that's not worth it. I was gonna say you could put it into another container jacket like to three PSI and then hit go.
+
+[25:19] But that's not worth it. It's not worth it. But so it's it's actually working on pressure not on temperature? Uh it has it so it has it has a pressure gauge and it also has two temperature gauges like it has a temperature probe at the bottom and at the end at the top. But the pressure gauge is a release or the pressure gauge is a measurement?
+
+[25:38] Um I'm I'm not sure actually I'm not sure. I don't know I should I should I should ask them. Yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm not sure how the altitude bitches much more specific question okay I want to make coots needed pabil in a canning jar. Can I just put the banana leaf and the pork I mean whatever like the toughest piece of pork I can get and the aciote in there and is there some overwhelmingly obvious reason that wouldn't work. Huh I don't know.
+
+[26:05] What what do you think Angie I I think it would work I mean what happens to banana leaves in a pressure cooker they probably break down I don't know I've never tried that specifically but I've but I've stuck um I mean I've stuck meats and and like onions and things like you can make like you know you caramelize onions inside sealed jars in a pressure canner. Onions obviously lose a lot of their onion potency. They get a lot more neutral and a lot sweeter in a pressure cooker than they would in any sort of other normal cook. Sure. Um or like, you know, if you were gonna do like acid canning where it's just a boil out versus pressure.
+
+[26:38] But I don't in other words, I don't know whether banana leaves are gonna have a different flavor extraction or anything around the because you know there's that layer around the banana leaf that has that particular flavor. Banana leafy flavor. Yeah, which I like. But I don't know what happens at pressure cooker. I don't know.
+
+[26:54] I don't I don't know how you can find out. Yeah, do it. Yeah. Yeah. But uh there's there's nothing on the surface of it that seems to think that it won't work.
+
+[27:03] All right. Well I I will just give that a shot next time I get around to it. I wound up with way too many banana leaves the last time I made uh I I made this regularly. Yeah. I need to get them out of my freezer.
+
+[27:13] All right, well let us know what happens. Thanks. I got a question from the chat room if you want to take it. Yeah, this is okay, go. To Kenji or Dave, can you ramanize fresh pasta?
+
+[27:22] Also instead of doing the baking soda technique, can I just use kensui? I don't know if that's pronounced it. Yes and yes. Okay, there you go. But uh I don't know that you'd want I mean it depends on what you like why you're doing it.
+
+[27:35] He said he used the modernist cuisine recipe for ramen and broke a pasta machine. Because it was too dry, or I don't know. Oh, well, wait, wait, so specifically the question is, is is it gonna go through his pasta machine? I guess so. Can you ramanize fresh pasta?
+
+[27:49] Oh yes, you c yes. I mean, obviously this is how they make pasta. So is he asking is he asking, can you take like can you make fresh Italian style pasta and cook it in in in baking soda water and will it taste like pasta? No, I think he's thinking can you do yell yellow alkaline noodles? Through a regular pasta machine?
+
+[28:08] I mean, I would assume you can. Yeah. Well. I mean, like, look, fundamentally yellow alkaline noodles are i is like a fairly normal pasta dough with consuy in it. Yeah.
+
+[28:23] Right? Yeah. So like typically a little bit drier than a like an Italian style dough, but it'll maybe be harder to push through a pasta machine, but I don't know. Right, but you could up the water, you could still get the yellow some of the bounce and the the consuite flavor. But it'll taste like that.
+
+[28:39] So you're basically just making ramen in a different shape. Yeah. There uh there's um, you know, like you Yu G Yu Graman, he does he does like a bunch of different pasta shapes with ramen dough. So he makes like ramen ramen flavored or kette and stuff like that. Right.
+
+[28:52] The key thing, the real baller move is to do forget forget making uh freaking noodles. Make uh lasagna so that it retains its texture when it's being cooked. I mean, that's the baller thing to do. And then slice it afterwards or just. Yeah, no, but like in other words, instead of using like Italian style pasta for uh although you know who makes you don't really want to use fresh for lasagna anyway, unless it's a very specific thing.
+
+[29:18] Not you would want like a dried ramenized, but not like fried and pre-cooked ramenized, unless you're gonna do the thing. But like w what's an application for pasta where you really want that the texture, the bounce, right? Where pasta tends to disintegrate? Ramen. But that be that's the reason to ramenize something.
+
+[29:35] Yeah. For ramen. Chicken chicken noodle soup that you're gonna put in a can. Yeah. He specifies he says when I'm asking what I'm asking is to make fresh Italian noodles, then ramenize.
+
+[29:43] So cook so cook so you you you mean using that hack where you cook it in water like with baking soda or consui, and it gets a little bit of that ramen, like that ramen flavor. You can get that flavor. I don't think you're gonna get the texture. Well, with dry pasta, you do get you do get the texture's different significantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:00] Um but I've never tried it with fresh pasta, but I don't see why it wouldn't work with fresh pasta. Well, let me put it to you this way. I would bet it would be more likely to work if you did the pre-soak and then bring up from cold than if you did it. Because once the protein's cooked, it's cooked. Yeah, I mean maybe yeah, maybe with fresh pasta the problem would be that it doesn't spend enough time in there because it's it cooks so quickly and and it's not absorbing much of the liquid, right?
+
+[30:25] So how much like how close to ramen do you get if you boiling it in water with uh if you do like a thin pasta like uh like spaghetti or capolini or something and and cook it in water with baking soda, like it it gets it gets pretty close. Um in flavor or in texture? Both. Both. Really?
+
+[30:41] Yeah, yeah. It's actually it's a good trick for if if you're making like if you want to make like a pasta salad that where the pasta doesn't get mushy, you know, because pasta when when when you make I mean, I don't know why people make pasta salad anyway, but if you make pasta salad. But uh but it gets it gushy as it sits in the dressing. Um if you cook it in like um alkalized water, is that the right word? Alkalized.
+
+[31:01] Alkalized water, yeah. Um the pasta stays a lot bouncier even after you after you cool it and dress it. Let me tell you something about angel hair and all those small pastas. They're supposed to be creamy. They're supposed to be creamy.
+
+[31:12] Yeah, but if you want them if you want them to be ramen and you can't get ramen where you are. So when when do I like those things dry? I guess they're anchovy sauces for Christmas Eve where I like those pastas dryish. How do you like how do you like your very fine pasta sauce? I don't like fine pasta.
+
+[31:26] Yeah. For real? Me neither. Why? Because it's bad.
+
+[31:30] This is a lot of hate about people. It's not bad. It's just different. It's not your al dente stuff, it's just a different product. Yeah.
+
+[31:38] God damn. I mean, gosh darn. Yeah. I also know a good way to find out if you can do this, by the way. Yes.
+
+[31:50] Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is a scooter in Lontana. Tenji, you may have just answered a question I asked a couple weeks ago about uh canning noodles. Um I called and asked about getting noodles that are like the you know the the canned chicken noodles. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:05] Um you think if you add some alkaline to your homemade noodles and put them in the can that they'll hold together? Uh yeah, I I think well hold together better. Um but I I would I I would cook the noodles separately in in uh alkalized water and then add them to the soup before you can it. But I I wouldn't like I wouldn't add I wouldn't add baking soda to your chicken and noodle soup. Um but I would cook the noodles separately.
+
+[32:28] Or if you're or if you're making or if you're making if you're making homemade noodles, yeah, you can you could add consui or baking soda or something to them. Right. Yeah. Sweet. Thank you.
+
+[32:38] All right. Yeah, cool. Now uh Jack, what was the other question you had off of the uh So I've got two chat room requests. I'm gonna let you choose your own adventure here. Uh they either want a conversation on vegan month.
+
+[32:49] Okay. Comparing vegan month notes or revisiting the conversation about weighing cocktail ingredients. Oh, okay. Well could do either of those. Well here, hit it on the vegan month.
+
+[33:00] Let's talk talk about vegan month. Okay, wait, comparing notes as in whatever. I've only ever done I done I did raw vegan for a week. I didn't know. Oh, raw vegan.
+
+[33:06] Okay. I know, but you did you did what do you do? Vegan. I do it every year. Are you in the middle of that month right now?
+
+[33:12] I'm in the middle of it right now, yeah. So uh what's up with that? Um well, okay. So I I started it, you know, mainly well, I've always been interested in vegan, like as far as diets go, it's one of the ones that makes sense to me, just sort of from uh ethical and environmental standpoint. Um it's made sense to me.
+
+[33:27] Um and so I, you know, mate, but the first time I did it, I was I was sort of skeptical, and I did it mainly because I wanted to challenge myself and see what would happen. And and then it turned out that I actually had a really great month because it made me, you know, made me think about recipes in a different way, think about new ingredients and new techniques. Um I I think from a from a recipe development standpoint it's been great because I it just it means like for a month out of the year I I think about a completely different set of things than I normally do. Um but um you know, but these days, you know, when I'm when I'm not uh when I'm not testing recipes or eating for work, um I I'd maintain mostly vegetarian, some fish, but um like I don't I I don't really go out for meat anymore. Um so uh you know in that sense it's it's sort of changed.
+
+[34:08] Uh the way I eat. So what's your favorite thing you discovered this vegan month? Uh I've been working a lot on hummus. Um and I, you know, I was actually uh going to be publishing a recipe for a recipe next week, um, but then last night I went to uh John Fraser's new place, Nick's. Have you been there?
+
+[34:24] No. It's it's awesome. Awesome. It opened on Monday. It's um a vegetarian restaurant.
+
+[34:27] But John you know, John Fraser, uh he has um uh dovetail and Narcissa, neither one of them vegetarian restaurants. He's like, you know, great chef, Michelin Star guy. Good man, too. Good man too, yeah. Um but and he opened a vegetarian restaurant that is amazing.
+
+[34:39] And they have this awesome hummus, and I was talking to him about it, and he uses a completely different technique than I use, so now maybe I'm gonna hold off on the recipe and do some more tests. What do you do? Uh so okay, so so m you know, the testing I was doing was mainly about about getting the the texture right and um so you know, so doing things like trying to peel whether peeling pick chickpeas really matters. Um my technique now is basically just like cook the crap out of the chickpeas um and then and then puree it all. Um but what he does is he cooks the crap out of the chickpeas, um, but then completely reduces the liquid um and puree's all the mirror paw and everything like basically everything that was in the pot, all the liquid, all the mirepoi, everything that was in there with the chickpeas, pureees it all together.
+
+[35:18] Um and it and it and puree's it importantly pureees it while it's hot in a blender um as opposed to letting it cool and then doing it in a food processor because when it's when it's hot, it's like the texture of like a milkshake, you know? It's like easily done in a blender. And then by the time it cools down to serving temperature, it's the texture of hummus. So you can get it a lot smoother in a blender than you can in a food processor. Because a setback?
+
+[35:37] Uh yeah, yeah. The uh are wait, so are you an advocate? Is he an advocate of the p a peel after soak, rub the things off after soak? No, so I mean okay, so where where I'm coming down in it, and and again this might change if I do some more testing, but where I was was coming down in it up until I had his last night was that um uh you know it when I when I served it side by side to people, um, people mostly picked the one where they where they were peeled. Um but the other one was also way better than you know, the one where you just cook them to crap was way better than uh than anything else uh as well.
+
+[36:08] So it's it's like you can get you can get like 90% good hummus without peeling the chickpeas if you want that extra 10%. You know what though, peeling chickpeas is not that big. It's not that hard. It's not that hard. Yeah, you do like the with the gold panning method, right?
+
+[36:19] Uh yeah, also I just like put my hands in them like your soaks, and then yeah, and then I yeah. Yeah, you put them in water, rub them around with your hands, and then and then kind of skim off the skins that flip to the top. I find it strangely cathartic. Yeah, yeah. But you know, some people don't like doing stuff, stuff like that.
+
+[36:34] The one thing you don't want to use is canned chickpeas. I mean like in a pinch they taste okay. In a pinch they taste okay. Yeah, and and and again, you know, this is like inside by side taste tests, they don't taste okay, but nobody eats things side by side in real life. Do you ever do it with like the the smaller like Bengalgram stuff or you know only using Italian style or uh I've been using, yeah, just Italian style.
+
+[36:54] Hummus so hot right now. Hummus. So hot right now, hummus. The uh Okay. So I did I you know, I don't know if you know this.
+
+[37:02] I had to, this is years ago. I had to do raw vegan for a week and it was a horror show. It was just a complete horror show. Well the raw part is the part that doesn't make horse. I was an angry monster.
+
+[37:12] And when I went back on cooked food, my toilet thanked me. The I mean it's just and by the way, uh we haven't talked about this, but uh, you know, Richard Grangum, the guy who wrote uh um uh oh my god, the the how cooking made us human? Uh nope, but oh he's awesome. He's a professor at Harvard. Um and um Oh, I know that book, yeah.
+
+[37:33] Yeah. Okay. Why the actual title's out of my head. I just have the tagline, on fire, I think, or something like this. Uh so he's done a lot of amazing uh work uh uh on like uh primates and like how how long we would have to sit and eat to get nutrition from uh raw food diets, things like this.
+
+[37:50] So he's gonna come on the show. Uh we're trying to schedule it, we're not sure when, but he's gonna come on the show. We're gonna talk to him about his uh his book and how it relates to kind of cooking. But yeah, raw food. Well these days a lot of people do have time to sit around and eat a lot, right?
+
+[38:03] Yeah, he reviewed some of the data that was done on people on raw food diets uh and kind of how much they had to eat. And it's a great way to lose weight just because your body can't absorb a lot of the stuff that you're you're eating. So it's just a fantastic way to uh you know to lose weight. Two minutes, Dave. Two minutes.
+
+[38:19] All right, so you want to talk about uh I have to I have to read uh an anti-me rant and then uh we can talk about cock weighing cocktails. Okay, let's do uh let's do cocktails and then uh I'll rip through the anti-me rant. Okay, weighing cocktails. So yeah, so I I think I tweeted once a while back uh that uh why why don't more people weigh their co weigh their cocktail ingredients instead of measuring them in jiggers? And uh and then some people said yes, and then some people rightfully said no, that's stupid.
+
+[38:44] But I you know I I think I think really it comes down to context. Like if you know like I know I know what drinks I I drink at home and it's not a huge like I maybe make four or five different drinks at home, or like most of the time it's just a negroni, right? And if I'm making like three or four of them, um I find it's easier just to throw the thing on the scale, pour the stuff in, and I'm done. And I know the ratio, like I I don't have to carry it, I don't have to care about the density of the things because I know how much I want of each one and it's done, and I don't have to mess up a jigger, I just pour it into the glass and that's no but you always have to pour into another glass, because what if you overpowered? Well, you just don't overpour.
+
+[39:17] Well, no, but you'll like you never pour you never pour the liquid directly into the batch. It's not like cooking. It's like I pour it directly into my mixing glass. You're freaking savage. You're freaking savage.
+
+[39:30] Like you have no you have no you have no room for mistakes then. Uh well and it's also if I slightly overpour, I just don't care, right? Savage, then why weigh it all? Just do it by eye. That's that's yeah, that's a good question, I guess.
+
+[39:41] Anyway, let's read the anti-illusion of precision. Yes, yeah. Well, you know, a lot of times that's the case anyway. A lot of the stuff is just making yourself feel good with precision. With cooking, no, like this I I wrote a rant a bit about like recipes that have gram measurements and very, very precise amounts, and it's it's like use thirty-three grams of onions and it's stuff and stuff.
+
+[39:58] And that's like I think total illusion of precision because it's not like the onion I'm using today is the same as the onion I'm using next week or the one that you're getting in California or whatever, right? It's like you can use the same exact amount of ingredients and and come up with completely different flavors just because ingredients vary a lot. But but for some reason there are there are some people who like really want this kind of precision in a recipe, even if it's a sort of false precision. How often do you use a thermometer? Um when you're not testing for writing.
+
+[40:24] So these days not much because I don't cook meat very much at home, but when I cooked meat, all I mean I always use it for meat. Even when you roast a chicken? You use the thermometer on a chicken? Oh, it's I especially use it for roast chicken actually. Really?
+
+[40:35] Yeah, yeah, because well, because yeah, roast chicken is one of those things where I think if it if it gets slightly overcooked, it's not good anymore. Um chicken and turkey areas. Oh, because you're not a briner. I'm a dry briner. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[40:49] We we need another whole other show to get into these kind of uh arguments. Let me let me Jack, can I read this anti-me rant real quick? Real quick. Jack, uh thanks to the wonderful network. I am a big fan and admirer of Dave.
+
+[41:00] That said, this is about the Gaps diet. Do you know about the Gaps diet, Kenji? No. Yeah. Uh uh.
+
+[41:06] That said I have to admit that I'm rather disturbed that Dave got off topic to evaluate the Gaps diet for his listeners. I didn't evaluate it, by the way. I just said that I don't have any data on it. I don't know about it, but that things that I saw initially on it set off red flags, but not that I had the data. That was maybe long and didn't actually make the point.
+
+[41:24] But that was what I was trying to say is that flags were being raised about the presentation of the of the diet, but that I have no actual data on the diet. That was my take-home, by the way, just so you know, Kenji. All right. All right. Uh I'm I'm gonna have to family familiarize it.
+
+[41:40] Um I mean who's I say Hustino instead of instead of uh Jesus Christ, should make it a little more family friendly. Okay. Uh I mean Justino, where is uh where in the list of many things he's an expert on is human physiology and healing diets. The question should have been discarded as off topic and never brought to the fore. Uh but it has been, and Dave didn't even know where to begin talking about it, which is kind of what I said.
+
+[42:02] I don't know about this specific diet. I do know about some fad diets, like masterclans, it's a load of horse crap. Unless unless you love it, people, in which case, anyway. Uh bottom line is that uh this is a healing diet with a long history of success and a lot of endorsements from qualified medical professionals. I saw, you know, whatever.
+
+[42:20] Amazingly, it addressed problems with human microbiome before anyone was thinking of the human microbiome. If Dave will check all those ailments that Gap says it cures, uh all are identified by reports as ailments that are triggered by gut dysbiosis, autism, a bunch of things. More like associated with you know, most of the data. Anyway, um triggered by gut dysbiosis. Gaps fixes those problems and fixes them by just changing diet for a while.
+
+[42:46] Justino, it doesn't really have to be it doesn't have any products to sell, unlike real fad diets usually do. Usually, not always. Master cleanse. Uh anyway, if you would like to have uh an author of a popular level uh Gabs diet book on the air with Dave, I could arrange it. Well, I think he should never comment on food as medicine issues again since it's really not his area of expertise.
+
+[43:05] I do feel that he owes it to his listeners and gaps people to set the record straight as much as possible. The easy way would be to have an established commenter on the diet come on. Happy to arrange that. I'll still listen every week, of course, even if Dave was just packing sugar honey and iced tea when he addressed uh addressed that topic. Let me know.
+
+[43:21] Thanks. Alan Balliott from Shepherdstown, West Virginia. Yeah, I'll have someone on, but I mean I may I may look we'll see how much I know when the expert comes on, and we'll see whether or not we'll see what happens. I'm happy to have someone on, and I would love someone to come on and tell me that you know the red flags that are raised when I look at it are not red flags and that I'm you know a bad or unknowledgeable person. You typically don't uh talk you typically don't talk about diet and and health much, or I was asked specifically about it.
+
+[43:49] I avoid it, not because I don't think about it, but because in general, I think most proscriptive diet plans are horse hockey. Yeah. Unless someone proves to me otherwise, my general idea is because the human body is so freaking complex that most of the data that people rely on, and this is this is not I'm not talking off the top of my head here. This is based on not specifically the Gaps diet, because I haven't read about it, but like much, much waiting through horse like scientific horse hockey on many different diet things. I am just ex I am extremely cautious about people telling people that they can how they can change their lives by manipulating the extraordinarily complex and poorly understood system that is the human body.
+
+[44:46] Right. Fair enough. Thank you so much, Kenji, for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks, Kenji. The book is the Food Lab Better Home Cooking Through Science.
+
+[44:54] Available everywhere. Um that's it, Dave. All right. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[45:18] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:26] And we're about to start with the equipment. This Heritage Radio Network program is sponsored by Open Table. For more information, visit OpenTable.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:07] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Every Tuesday, you know, like twelve-ish, twelve forty-five, twelve fifty. Depends on whether we have a show coming after kicking us out, or you know, something else to do. You know how it is. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:38] That's 718497-2128. Joined in the studio as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah?
+
+[1:46] Doing alright? Yeah. Yeah, we got Jackie Molecules. Jack in the in the engineering booth. How are you doing, Jack?
+
+[1:51] I'm good. What's up with the eye patch, man? Alright. Alright. We'll talk about the eye patch in a minute.
+
+[1:56] All right. We're doing Pirate Dave right now. Ah. And we're joined, we're joined by, we'll use like political terminology. Engineer Joe.
+
+[2:03] We got Engineer Joe in the uh in the booth today. How you doing, Joe? Good afternoon. So uh if you should, and by the way, when I say engineer, I don't mean like rocket engineer or automobile engineer, like uh kitchen equipment engineer. So if you guys have any questions about, for instance, why does my X, Y, Z do X, Y, and Z?
+
+[2:24] You can call and ask Joe, and maybe he can tell you why X, Y, and Z does X, Y, and Z, right? I hope so. Yeah, alright. Uh should uh provide an interesting perspective here on the program. Uh so why am I wearing an eye patch?
+
+[2:36] This is an excellent question. So it turns out that uh, so I am the uh I don't I do not have a detached retina. That is not what happened. Let's just let's start with that. Let's start with I do not have a detached retina.
+
+[2:48] However, uh a you know, mid-40s, you know, uh white dude who uh was born like very nearsighted, like I was, you know, I have the late I had the laser surgery, so I can see well could see normally, right? Uh like we are prime candidates, like white male, like mid-age uh nearsighted folk, prime suspects for a retinal detachment. So on Sunday, I start getting like a floater, right? You know, like you know what I'm saying? Like a floater in your eye, like uh, but usually floaters they look kind of like gray.
+
+[3:22] You know what I mean? So I didn't uh I didn't think much of it. It was bigger than normal. I was like, this sucks. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:30] And then I did uh, you know, my my daily, I hate to even say these words, workout routine. Right? Yeah, I know it's terrible, it's awful. I don't even want to think about it. Right.
+
+[3:41] I detest, I detest it. Anyways. Uh so I did that, and then like all of a sudden, my it looked like the beginning of a James Bond like movie situation, like, you know, some golden eye crap, like just like swirls of like black, like galaxies and stars of dust and like blackness and like big inky swirls. You know how like when someone gets shot in the James Bond thing and all the blood pours out of them like ink and shadow effect? Like this is what my vision was like in my eye.
+
+[4:10] So I'm like, meh, meh. So I go online and they're like, Yeah, yeah, floaters. I'm like, well, this seems worse than a floater. They're like, if it's flashing, if you have flashing lights, this is when you know you're getting a detached retina. Or if like a portion of your vision just literally goes blank, like blank.
+
+[4:26] Not like looking through a James Bond film, but like blank, detached women. So I'm like, nah, not a big deal. So at dinner, because I cook dinner that night, which by the way, we could talk about dinner. I like uh I have a my new favorite go-to quick meal. We can talk about it in a minute.
+
+[4:38] Anyways. So like I tell the people at dinner. Yeah, I tell the people at dinner, I'm like, hey, uh, so um I can't really read and it's hard for me to concentrate when I'm slicing, and uh I'm sorry if I seem a little distracted, but like, you know, I have uh a James Bond movie going in my right eye, and they're like, What the what's wrong with you? And so then like I call my mom and mom's like, What's wrong with you? You could be having a detached retina.
+
+[4:59] I was like, the internet tells me no, Ma. She's like, You idiot, you idiot, idiot, idiot. So I had to go to see a doctor. Luckily, all I did was my eye sack ripped away from the edge, tore open a blood vessel, and sprayed blood all over the inside of my eye, which you can see. But um anyways, so apparently I am at an increased risk for retinal detachment over the next two weeks.
+
+[5:20] So please, nobody who sees me on the street, please don't punch me in the right side of the head. You know what I mean? Like if you see me on the street, try to avoid your your your primary urge, which will be to punch me in the right side of the head. I know. Like go for a kidney blow.
+
+[5:35] Something that's not gonna send too much shock to the head. You know what I mean? Like uh, you know, maybe if you hit me in the kidney, maybe I could get some match bleeding, bleeding down low, bleeding up high. Could be good, you know what I mean? So, anyways, so yeah, so uh it's taking me out of uh strenuous activity for the next uh couple of weeks.
+
+[5:50] But oh, and I have to wear I don't have to wear an eye patch. In fact, my doctor says that I should wear the eye patch as little as possible because uh he wants me to be looking through the eye in case something terrible happens so I can rush to the hospital and they can like glue all the stuff back together, should it start coming apart like a poorly glued model airplane. Uh but the uh but it's impossible for me to read, so there's no way I can do uh there's no way I could do the radio show without the eye patch. I didn't bring the cowboy hat. Yesterday I had the cowboy hat and the eye patch, and I have to say, I have never in my life gotten such looks of respect on the street as I did when I was walking around with like a vest, like you know, like a puffy vest, like my you know, my brown cowboy hat and an eye patch.
+
+[6:31] People are like, I I don't know, but I don't want to I'm not gonna I don't know, but I'm just not gonna I'm not gonna mess with this one. This one, nah. No. You know what I mean? You know what I mean, Jack?
+
+[6:40] Yeah. It's a great look. Yeah, you like the eye patch? What's the go to quick meal though? Oh yeah, go to quick meal.
+
+[6:45] So I do have a caller, we'll we'll stay pa I told him to stay patient. Uh why don't we do the caller? We'll deal with the college problem and then we'll talk about some go to quick meal. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey uh guys, this is Coleman from uh from Brooklyn.
+
+[6:56] How's it going? Doing all right, how you doing? Not bad, thanks. Um uh two questions. First of all, I'm going to Vancouver this coming weekend.
+
+[7:02] I want to see if you have any uh restaurant recommendations up there. You know what? You know what that's for? That's for the chat room. I haven't been to Vancouver in I think like four years, and I went with uh uh, you know the food writer out there, Fong.
+
+[7:16] It was good, but I can't remember. I went to like whatever the top-rated sushi restaurant was in Vancouver and it was quite good, but I don't remember the name of it. You know what I mean? And so much has happened in Vancouver over the past uh over the past couple of years. I would hesitate even to have you been there recently?
+
+[7:31] Did you go there, Styles when you went to Seattle in Portland? No. No? Joe, you've been to Vancouver recently? In the mid-90s.
+
+[7:37] That's even earlier. I was there too in the mid-90s. It was crazy time. That's when all of Hong Kong was buying up Vancouver when that yeah. Yeah, interesting time.
+
+[7:45] Yeah. Uh but no uh Jack, you're gonna put that out to the uh chat room? Yeah, I will. All right, put uh so I'm sorry that I don't have anything specific, but we'll get the chat room working on it and you can uh you know get the cooking issues crew weighing in on that. Do you have any other questions that maybe I know?
+
+[8:03] Uh and I, you know, I I'm I don't approve of that, but it's a friend. Uh and I want to see if you had any good vegetarian cookbooks that you actually liked and thought would be worth uh getting as a present. Yeah, sure. You need to get a Michael Natkin's Herbivaracious. Boom.
+
+[8:17] Which one again? Michael Natkin's Herbivaracious. Okay. Herbivoracious. Uh Michael Natkin um does work with uh Chef Steps.
+
+[8:26] And uh even Nastasia, hater of vegans everywhere. Good book. Thinks it's a good book, right? You just heard Nastassi say it again. Good book.
+
+[8:34] See, you heard Nastasia Lopez actually praising something on air, if you can believe that. Nastasia Lopez I'm proud to have caused that. Yeah, yeah. Nastasia Lopez has actually cooked recipes out of this book. Right?
+
+[8:47] That's true. That like, yeah, that's crazy endorsement. Now, if I might go forward, uh, and Nastasia is going to disagree with me here, uh, I would go purchase um any one of the number of excellent Indian vegetarian uh cookbooks out there. The one that I happen to own is extremely old, and so it doesn't uh I mean I don't even know whether it's uh current, it's not really current anymore, but I have the old Yamuna Devi one. But you know, anyone who's become vegetarian better get themselves very, very acquainted with Indian food lickies.
+
+[9:19] My girlfriend's vegetarian, so I cook a lot of Indian at home. Yeah. And let me say this. Uh I wouldn't worry so much about uh well, you know, you're not the vegetarian, you don't care. But like the point is is that is that like a lot of times I think when someone I mean the great thing about Indian uh cooking, vegetarian cooking, is that they have so many centuries of practice at doing this properly in a very kind of uh integrated and a holistic way.
+
+[9:43] So it's not just trying to glue the vegetarian precepts onto like some other form of eating. So it's really a good place to start. But uh I think I find that a lot of people uh when they start out get rather daunted because of the spice mixtures and uh you know all all of the all of these other things. And uh I think that I know I don't know how kind of creative your friend is, but um a lot of the techniques that are used uh in Indian cooking or the basic flavor combinations, even without the huge mix of spices and the masalas and whatnot are extremely useful. So, you know, uh like you know, if you're making like a a s like you know, mint coconut chutney can be really, really complicated, or it can literally be I'm gonna throw a coconut with some mint and uh and coriander and uh ginger and some spice uh you know, and a couple nuts in a blender and go with some water and oil and bang.
+
+[10:37] You know what I mean? Like super fresh. So I I think like some willingness to not necessarily adhere to the letter of what's going on in those cookbooks is very helpful. Um because you're not shooting for authentic, you're shooting for delicious. And right, and things can be authentic and delicious, or they can be uh your own creation and delicious, you know?
+
+[10:54] You got that right. So that's those are my suggestions. Cool. All right, hey, thanks so much. Hey, no problem.
+
+[10:59] Hey Jack, did we get anyone uh weighing in in Vancouver yet? No, but I just texted you in Stas. We have a first time chatter here. Uh Jay Heaton just made a enemies of quality t-shirt design. Wow.
+
+[11:10] You gotta look at it. I just texted it to you in Stas. Do you see it? Uh I'm looking through my one my one as uh as Bob Dylan would say, my one dying eye. Oh my god.
+
+[11:18] For for those of you that listen to The Hurricane. Do people still talk about that? About the hurricane? About Bob Dylan. No, about the song the hurricane.
+
+[11:26] Wow, tomatoes in the fridge. We've got to send this to Daniel Gritzer and see what Dan. Daniel Gritzer famously said that I was the enemy of truth by saying that putting uh uh tomatoes in the fridge. He can go back, we can look we can uh reference whatever uh episode that was where Daniel is actually on. Yep.
+
+[11:41] But he said, you know, I famously not famously for me, uh r often say rather, that uh putting tomatoes in the fridge makes you the enemy of quality because as we all know, uh tomatoes turn mealy when they're stored in the in the fridge for a long time. It's it's m more severe of a problem in tomatoes that have large um amounts of flesh, right? When I say flesh, I mean the actual like granular part of the flesh as opposed to just seeds and water like a cherry tomato has. Uh did I ever tell you guys how bitter cherry tomato skins are? We'll we'll get into that in a minute.
+
+[12:13] Anyway, so I've said it was like a super enemy of quality situation um because it's true. Uh and so I tend to leave my tomatoes on the counter, and this is especially true when I shop for very high-end tomatoes in uh August at the farmer's market. And Daniel said to me, Look it. When you take especially not such a great tomato or a tomato that's ripe and you leave it on the counter, it loses uh it loses a lot of its qualities and becomes not good compared to one that's stored in a fridge for a day or two and then removed and allowed to come up to temperature. And he had a lot of things.
+
+[12:47] I think that's uh maybe correct, except for when I buy exp when I buy garbage tomatoes, I don't really care because they're garbage. You know what I mean? Um when I buy like a really good tomato, uh I always buy them, I buy ones I'm gonna eat today and they're ready. I buy ones I'm gonna eat tomorrow and they have like a day left, and I turn them upside down, in other words, the stem side down, because the stem side is the firmest side of the tomatoes. Tomatoes ripen from the part that's furthest away from the plant towards the stem.
+
+[13:18] So the stem is the stem end is the most is the strongest part of the tomato, so it's not gonna break when you store it that way. It usually has a natural resting point and you won't burst the skin, and I let them sit out uh you know on a cool counter, or it if I'm in a snooty mood, my wine storage container. That styles made fun of me because just because I was having to give in as a gift to like a like a little one of those little wine holding refrigerators, now Anastasia thinks that I walk around with a monocle. I don't. I walk around with an eye patch, duh.
+
+[13:45] Boom. And uh boom styles. So there goes you and your uh hopes of seeing me as the planter's peanut man. Um one of those wines cool. That's like such a classic example of a gift somebody would give.
+
+[13:55] Right? Yeah. Right? And then you're like, I guess I'll use it. Yeah, but you know what it's really good for, Jack?
+
+[14:00] Tomatoes. Clearly. You know what else? Wine. You know what else?
+
+[14:04] Chocolate. Oh, yeah. Chocolate. Good for chocolate. Yeah.
+
+[14:08] Uh and so you know what it's holding now? Box after box of box wine. Because everyone knows that's how I rock it now, the box wines. And the box have you have you been? Anyway.
+
+[14:18] So Daniel is basically saying that uh if I say that you're an enemy of quality for putting a uh tomato in the fridge, I'm being too simplistic and not taking into account the way that the majority of people uh consume tomatoes here in the good old US of A. And you know what? He's probably right. So what's your go-to quick meal? Go to quick meal.
+
+[14:35] Uh it's so I forget I forget how the situation started. I think it was because Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink said something about uh Trinidad food, and I somehow went into some rabbit hole on Trinidad or something, and I saw this dish for um yam. Now you know yams aren't yams. You know Americ in America, when we say yam, we really mean sweet potato. Did you know that, Jack?
+
+[15:02] I suspect it as much. Yeah. So the sweet potato is not a yam. It is an entirely different species. Like what we call yam, I forget the name of the actual uh thing, but it's like it's like uh something it's like uh batata ipanemo, some.
+
+[15:17] I ran into this problem when a recipe called for sweet potatoes and yams, and I was like, wait, what? Yeah, but most uh like 99.9% of Americans when they say yam, what they mean is a different color of sweet potato, right? So they're still talking about two different varieties of the same exact plant, neither of which is a yam, right? Yam is an entirely different tuber that is neither a potato nor a sweet potato. And it's there's a variety of them, yams.
+
+[15:42] Anyway, the particular one I was using is called Name. Anyway, so it was a mixture of are you familiar with the uh French uh uh dish brandade? Have I talked about this dish on the so you know brandade? You know brandad, anyone? Brandad, anyone, brandad?
+
+[15:55] So it's like mashed potatoes and like shredded salt uh cod? Yes. And like with like butter, like butter and cream finished with typically with walnut oil, uh, you know, I think it's basca or some crap, you know, it's right on the border, one of those things is right on the border. So anyway, so I saw this like smashed yam and salt fish recipe with like peppers and onions. I was like, bang.
+
+[16:17] So I don't make I don't do it traditional, I do like like a huge bunch of uh sauteed tomatoes, a huge bunch of sauteed red and green, because sorry I can't help myself, I can't just have green peppers, it's you know, whatever. Uh and the all you it's super simple. You just uh do that. Oh, and the the trick with this, you know how any any of you guys do Catholic uh any of you guys do Catholic uh Christmas Eve? No.
+
+[16:38] What the hell? Anyone? Catholic Christmas Eve? I'm gonna have. You have.
+
+[16:42] Good. So what do you so what do you eat on a c on a classic uh Italian Cathic uh Catholic uh Christmas Eve? Fish. Right. So you're eating fish.
+
+[16:50] So one of the great fishes you eat, of course, is baccala, right? So baccala is the is the salt cod. It's reconstituted. Now, when you're eating Italian Christmas Eve dinner, the problem with the baccala in this situation is you have to buy the nice big pieces and you have to reconstitute them over over a couple of days to get the right texture and the right taste. Uh and ex good uh dried cod is quite expensive.
+
+[17:12] However, for this recipe, or if you're making uh cod fritters, do you like baccalagitos? You like those stuff? Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're delicious. You like those, Joe, Jack, you ever have these?
+
+[17:21] Yeah, they're delicious, right? The advantage of these things is you can use the crappier thin pieces of cod that aren't fit for serving on Christmas Eve, but still have a lot of that flavor. So all you do is you throw uh you throw all the cod into into a big pot of water like you would for pasta with no salt, duh. You take it from cold, you bring it up just below to a simmer, you let it ride for a couple minutes, dump it, do it once more, and the cod's ready to use within like 10 minutes. You pull it out, you hack it up with a knife, you throw it into the saute after you're done, you uh just you know, peel your yam, which gets really, really slippery and gross.
+
+[17:53] Uh chop it, boil it, smash it up. I add a boatload of butter and oil to it, and I serve it with uh limes and avocados, tomatoes, and that's it. Lettuce, boom, done, boom, done. Fast, delicious. You can put any any sort of topping you could put on.
+
+[18:09] It's not traditional, maybe Trinidad, but like you must have avocados and you must have lime. If you don't have those two things, you don't deserve to have uh, you know, the meal. Anyway, that's my go-to now, because I can I can get it on the table in under an hour, and you know, it's unusual for people that haven't had it yet. So and it's cheap, super cheap. Anyway.
+
+[18:26] Nice. Can we take a really quick break so we can get that out of the way? Sure. Yep, let's do it. Come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[18:46] Open Table is a proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network. Open Table is home to the world's largest dining network, seating over 17 million diners every month. Their technology solutions help restaurants run and grow their businesses. That means providing memorable hospitality to every guest, streamlining front of house operations, and optimizing seating to seat more diners and drive more business. Chefs, restaurateurs, and other industry professionals can find more tips and best practices for running a successful restaurant on their blog.
+
+[19:17] Open for business at openforbusiness.opentable dot com. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Alright. So uh on from that. Did you think I sounded like a good uh dish there, Jack?
+
+[19:40] Yeah, I'm into it. Joe? Sounded great. Yeah, very fast, very cheap. Uh okay.
+
+[19:46] I'm a cheap man. Did you know that? What? I'm super cheap. I'm like I like being generous with food quantities, but if I can I have no f I feel no compunction, except when buying steak and cheese, to buy like super expensive stuff.
+
+[20:02] You know what I'm saying? Wait, wait, just steak and cheese. Well, I'm just thinking two things off the top of my head. I don't buy cheap steak, I don't buy cheap cheese. I mean, I don't buy expensive cheese explicitly, but most of the cheeses that I like end up costing a good deal of money.
+
+[20:17] You know what I mean? So and what I tend to do is I try to find the highest quality supplier of the cheese at a reasonable price, which means I end up eating a lot of Italian cheese here in New York because I go to DiPalos, because DiPalos is like the greatest Italian cheese shop. By the way, this was super depressing. I was in Milan last week, which is why we didn't do the show. And did I tell you this, Stuas?
+
+[20:37] Like what I found depressing was I went to like some of the high-end markets in uh in you know, in Milan, and there was nothing that I saw that I was like, I need to bring this home because I can't get this here in New York. And I was really depressed by that. Like the you know, there was stuff I couldn't bring home because it's illegal, like meats and stuff like this, but you know, most of the cheeses, and I tried them, like the quality difference wasn't that great. It wasn't like I was getting a lot of loss bringing it over, and maybe it's because Milan, you know, Milan isn't the heart of the super micro artigenale, blah blah blah blah blah, like you know, farmer with his cap and all this other stuff. Had some delicious um liquors over there, but yeah, isn't that depressing that I couldn't find anything that I was like, oh yeah.
+
+[21:25] And it's not like I went to like I did also go to supermarkets while I was there because I always, when I travel, go to supermarkets to see what people's supermarkets are like. And I recommend anyone do this. Like take a good 20 minutes out. Everyone passes a supermarket when they're in a foreign country. Go into the supermarket and see how they see how people shop.
+
+[21:42] Do you like doing that or do you not like it? Yeah, yeah. And uh weird stuff there anyway. But the point is, I was just super depressed by that because almost always I can find some crap that you know I'm like, oh man, that's awesome. I don't know.
+
+[21:55] Depressing. Uh, but I did have a lot of good risotto since you know, Milan, good risotto. And I did have the big Milanese uh breaded cutlet, you know what I'm talking about? You know they call it the elephant because they leave the bone on it. So do you like cutlets?
+
+[22:08] Do you like you like you like those things, Joe? Yes, I do. They're delicious. I had an interesting risotto at a restaurant called Daniel, no relation to our Daniel here. He's an Italian Daniel.
+
+[22:17] Uh get this licorice and lemon. What do you think? I don't know. I mean, do are would you be willing to try it? Licorice and lemon.
+
+[22:25] Licorice and lemon. Rizzotto? Rizzotto. Delicious. Really delicious.
+
+[22:30] And Nastasia, you would have liked it perfectly cooked. The best cooked. So I had a couple of uh of you know, well-reviewed restaurants in Milan I went to that had the risotto that was like a little bit starched out and gloopy on the outside. You hate that, right? And with uh with the core that's cooked all the way through, all the way through.
+
+[22:49] No. You hate hate, right? Hate, hate, and where the gr the grains come up in big c clumps of stuff, hate, right? This thing, like all the grains were still themselves, but they had a nice, like, you know, awesome like texture on the outside, tiny core on the inside, still done perfectly cooked. Best.
+
+[23:10] Anyway. Uh also. I went to this crazy restaurant whose name escapes me. Where check this out, Stas. I think it's called like Boca and David uh uh Boca and Davino or something like this.
+
+[23:21] You go in, did I tell you about this one? You go in and they just Joe and Jack, you'll like this. They you order nothing, which already I like. I hate making choices. I hate choices.
+
+[23:30] Choices are the worst. Like every day your life, you have to make choices all the time. Where am I gonna go? What am I gonna do? Who am I gonna hang out with?
+
+[23:38] What bearing am I gonna use in the centrifuge? Blah blah blah. You know what I mean? Like choices all freaking day. And then all of a sudden, you go to a place and they're like, you know what?
+
+[23:46] Crap on you. And here's what they do they just bring like plate after plate after plate of salumi, and they're just chopping it off, like all different, like, you know, like these weird ones from like Nortia that are sliced thick, so you know, hams, all good stuff. But they just open a bottle of wine, bring it to you open, because I think they cheat. I think they reuse the bottle and refill it. But that's that's not important.
+
+[24:05] It's very host friendly. They bring the bottle of wine, they pour you the two glasses, because there's only two of us eating, and then they just put the bottle of wine on the table with the first course. No choice, you don't get to choose a bottle of wine, because that's not your job. That's the Somoye's job. That's his freaking job.
+
+[24:19] Right? Of course. And it's his restaurant. There's a picture of him with his kid in the backpack in the mountains, you know, because it's very close to the Alps. Anywho.
+
+[24:25] So I'm like, oh, this is kind of nice, it's kind of refreshing, and you can pour yourself more. Then they come with the next plate of salumi, chaka chaka, chaka, chaka chaka, and the next open bottle of wine, and they pour in two new glasses, and they put that freaking bottle on the table, and they don't take away the other bottle. Then comes then comes the freaking pasta and the pastas in uh, you know, they serve it like like old school, like what I assume is an old school like 70s, like kind of like this is the kind of cheese, uh not cheese literally, but you know, cheesy thing that I kinda kitschy thing that I love. They had the half parmesan bowl that they tossed, like the uh Talian, and they and they serve it out of that with another freaking bottle of wine. Then comes the cheese course with another freaking bottle of wine.
+
+[25:09] Then comes the uh dessert, they brought a dessert with like uh some sort of local like Vinsanto style thing that wasn't Vinci, it was from near Milan. Then the grappa in an open freaking bottle. So our table with no choice, a table is just like littered with glasses, and obviously I didn't ate all the salumies, there wasn't any of that, but it was a good experience. And you know what? Some idiot walks in.
+
+[25:31] I'm talking, I don't speak Italian, so the other guy's saying, some idiot walks in and says, uh says, everything on TripAdvisor, it's rated on TripAdvisor. Every single thing is like, you do not choose, you do not choose, there is no choice, and by the way, there's no choice. Some guy comes in and he's like, um, there's no uh choices here. I kind of thought, you know, we could choose what we wanted. And the guy was like, Yeah, hey, leave.
+
+[25:52] You know, you know, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, uh, people. What makes people think they'll make the right choice? There's a no reason why anyone should make the right choice. And if you have, like, if you are picky, you should not go to a restaurant whose whole shtick is you have no choice.
+
+[26:09] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, eh, whatever. Wish there were more of those here. I love the no choice.
+
+[26:17] Yeah, me too. Well, that's like, you know, even places here that are no choice, it really is like marginal choice. You can walk into like a place that, you know, has like uh like a prefix only, like, you know, three course, and you can say, Oh, oh yes, but this and but that. But this guy doesn't even tell you. There's no menu.
+
+[26:29] There's no there's no here's what you might have kind of situation. Just shows up. There's no opportunity to be like, I don't like that. Anyway. And we went to the place in Greece that was like that, Stas?
+
+[26:43] No choice. As uh Jeffrey Star Steingarden's uh wife, Karen says, no choice, no problem. By the way, I'm gonna talk about this on the air while we're here. Nastasia Lopez is the queen of uh of not putting up with crap that she hates. Okay.
+
+[27:01] It is a well-known fact here at Herbert's Pizzeria, and I love Robertas. You know that, Jack, right? Yes. Right. It's a well-known fact that uh they have greens in this restaurant.
+
+[27:12] How do I know this? Because they always have specials with greens, right? For the past year, Nastasi and I, every single time we sit down, every Tuesday, we're like, can we get greens on our pizza? And Stas, what's the answer? No.
+
+[27:28] Yeah, no greens on the pizza. So they're like, we're like, how about you just take greens and throw them on the pizza? Like, and and what do they say? No. Right.
+
+[27:37] So Nastasia for the past couple of weeks has turned Roberta's pizzeria into a BYOG restaurant. She literally goes to the store on the way to the radio program. She has to leave five minutes earlier, picks up the uh what's your favorite green on a pizza stas? Arugula. Oh, yeah.
+
+[27:53] That's the right answer. Oh yeah, baby arugula. Oh yeah. With some oil, brings it, and then we put it on our own pizza. But how crazy is that?
+
+[28:01] So good. And they they never say anything about it. They're never giving us crap about it. Yeah, but then what if like what if another table is like, I want one of those? They should start stalking the freaking greens for the pizza.
+
+[28:12] You know what? You know what? I should have uh I should have the head of the pizza kitchen come in. We should talk about this on there. Here's the thing.
+
+[28:20] They could say, hey, I'm gonna charge you six bucks. And I'd be like, okay. Anyway, whatever. So it's a BYOG restaurant. It's the only outside food we can bring into Robert is his greens for our pizza.
+
+[28:33] Whatever. Okay, some questions. Um two quick questions for the year of starch uh research. Uh I've been making the flower tortilla recipe in the new Stu Pac Taco cookbook written uh with Alex Dupac and Jordana Rothman. Do you have a copy of that?
+
+[28:51] No. Me neither. Yeah. Shows what kind of friends we are. We don't even rate a copy of the book.
+
+[28:55] Thanks. Of course, I'm sure we would have gotten a copy had we gone to the book launch party, but we were doing we were doing other stuff. James Beard Award nominee. Really? For the book?
+
+[29:05] Yeah. Well, I hope they win. Yeah, me too. I mean, not that I've read it yet, but I mean I like it. Yeah, he's really good on panels.
+
+[29:18] That guy tells it like it is. Yeah, he's uh he he's also really, really good at demos. You ever seen him do a cooking demo? I haven't. Really good.
+
+[29:25] Like like a hardcore, like everything, like he's the anti me when it comes to demos. Like literally the polar opposite. Like it in this he does a lot of stuff, so in that way it's like similar, but like every single thing he does is perfectly tightened down and like neat and clean and comes off like a machine, right? Whereas you It's like imagine a machine that like where parts are flying off of it at all points, and like just like oil and grease and gas are spraying everywhere. That's more like how I operate, right, Stas?
+
+[29:58] Yeah. Yeah. Stas is like, I know that too well. Anyway. Um Lately I've been making flour tortillas uh from the Stu Pack Taco Cookbook, and I've noticed some variation across other recipes I've seen.
+
+[30:11] Some say to use cold water, others say to use very hot water. Some say to knead the dough well and rest it a while to develop gluten, although it's probably mean they mean relax. But anyway, well, right, resting a short while is gonna relax it, resting a long time will let the gluten hydrate and develop, whatever. Well, others recommend a very short knead and a short rest to keep the dough from getting tough. What's actually going on here?
+
+[30:31] I know nothing will be as good as fresh masa tacos. Now listen, I too, and apparently so uh Alex, because I uh I read it, you know, uh we originally were saying that the only good tortilla is a corn tortilla. I have recanted this because the issue isn't that flour tortillas can't be delicious. They they they can be, obviously, they are. That and even apparently in Mexico and a lot of places, that uh you almost needed to make a statement, and so you needed to go all in for corn tortillas, right?
+
+[31:17] And let's be honest, corn tortillas are a lot harder to freaking make than a flour tortilla if you're gonna start with raw corn. It's a lot harder. You know what I mean? Oh, really a lot harder. Uh so therein, the fact that there's uh, you know, a lot more of an art uh and a lot more going into making a corn tortilla, and also such a huge quality difference between the craft that you buy and the um and you know what you know what you can make.
+
+[31:46] I think that is what led people like me, people like Alex, many people to say that the flour tortilla is garbage and that like you should only focus on the corn tortilla. Not true. Flour tortilla, delicious, right? Uh so you know, I wouldn't s I I'm gonna I I'm gonna dial back a lot that I've said and I've never worked I've never frankly made a lot of flour tortillas. I don't I'm not an expert in them because I have spent all my time on corn, but I'm here to tell you that I'm I am now a believer that the flour tortilla is just as honorable to make as a corn tortilla, just not as difficult.
+
+[32:20] Now, so what's going on in a flour tortilla? Flour tortilla is a mixture of uh t basically lard, flour, water, salt, right? And most of the recipes, and I took a glance not in his book because of course we don't have a copy because of course we didn't go to the party like I already told you. Uh and like, you know, Stas and I aren't in the business of like shelling out actually you know, that's not true. We buy we buy books.
+
+[32:43] We should just buy their freaking book and support Alex and Jordana, whatever. Uh you know, you put the lard, which is you know has a uh um uh is mm, what's the word I'm looking for? Has a lower melt point or it's an oilier, has a more less solid than butter, right, into the flour, and then stew pack adds uh hot, hot or very warm water to it. Not hot enough to affect the actual flour. My guess is is that unlike a biscuit where you're looking to keep your uh lard particles or your butter particles or your shortening particles separate so that you create flake layers in between um uh the pieces of flour.
+
+[33:22] So if you're making like because uh a biscuit dough, depending on the style that you make, but if you're doing a flaky style biscuit dough as opposed to the ones that are done with scoops uh you know like the if you're doing like an old school flaky thing you really want the uh butter things to stay separate so you you put it into the flour you work it into your hands until it resembles like a cornmeal with some larger pieces of butter you do the minimum amount of um of work on the on the dough because you don't want it to get tough in any way right and then you bake them the butter then melts the water that's in the butter uh expands you get pockets you get flaky things in between the thing everybody's happy everyone likes your biscuits go by the way Staz I can't talk to her about it because she doesn't like biscuits yeah I need that like sign again because I can't believe there's someone on next to me who doesn't like biscuits. Joe, you like biscuits, right? Of course. Are you a fluffy or a flaky? Flaky.
+
+[34:11] Flaky Jack, fluffy or flaky? Sorry about that. I'm flaky. Flaky, really I used to be exclusively flaky and I that's how I make them. I have in the past couple of years come to respect the fluffy biscuit.
+
+[34:27] Yeah? Yeah. I think they're different. They're different in the way that like a northern cornbread and a southern cornbread are different. Right.
+
+[34:33] Anyway. So let's finish let me finish the tortilla. Okay. So uh anyhow um I think what the hot water is for there is to literally like help melt the uh lard out because here what the lard is doing isn't forming little pockets to leaven to make something flaky because that's not what it's all about. And there's going to be enough water on the inside and it's gonna be thin enough that you're gonna get puffing just from the hot comal where you're cooking the tortilla.
+
+[34:59] Here, what the hot water is doing is causing the lard to run out and mix with the flour particles and prevent this is my guess, I don't know, prevent the gluten from forming. And so uh the hot water is actually in this case going to prevent uh excess gluten development by causing the lard to be more evenly distributed in the uh dough. This is a 100% guess and not based in any sort of actual knowledge. This is just me thinking off the top of my head. And with that, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[35:28] Hey Dave, uh it's Alex from Brooklyn. First, I wanted to give you a quick update. I had called in about doing an outdoor deep fryer, and you would recommend a walk instead. Uh-huh. And I ended up buying a propane wok burner, and it is awesome.
+
+[35:42] Sweet. So it's so perfect. So thank you for your help. And now my quandary is I do an annual pig roast in Prospect Park. Right.
+
+[35:51] And I was wondering about doing a whole 75-pound pig low temp. Is that a good strategy? Or do you have something else you recommend? Let me think here. So I'm trying to look in my head.
+
+[36:01] I can picture a 200-pound pig and I can picture a 20-pound pig. A 75-pound pig is what, like three feet long? Yeah, give or take. It fits in one of those big uh like hunting coolers pretty nicely with a lot of ice. Got it.
+
+[36:17] Oh, so you're gonna do the cooler method, huh? Here's the issue with low-temping uh a whole pig. Uh the loin is always gonna be stringy. I mean, it's always gonna have that like cook too long taste. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:32] So you can you can do it. It's it won't be bad, but it's gonna be best on um on the legs, obviously, are gonna come out uh better. The majority of the belly will be good, uh, except for like there's one or two muscles that don't have a lot of kind of uh fat or connective tissue in there, and that they're gonna end up being dry. You know what might be an interesting technique that I've never tried. What if you and I was talking off the top of my head here?
+
+[36:59] What if you were to uh in place in the pig rub curing salt into the loin section so that you almost got some cure in the loin section, and then see I always wanted to do is like almost like take them take the major muscles, like almost disassemble the pig, cook it all perfectly, reassemble it, and then do the roast off to get the skin kind of quick c crackly and awesome, but I've never done it. You know what I my real dream is is to do the uh Colombian style where you take the whole skin off, like the lechona, where you take the whole skin off, turn it into a cape, then cook all the different pieces kind of separately, reassemble with meat glue, and then roast and crisp off the whole thing, and then uh meanwhile re-therming the stuff on the inside. Like that would be the ultimate. That's kind of hard, that's kind of hardcore. It's a dream.
+
+[37:52] That's very hardcore. It's a dream, and someday I will do it. Uh but it look, it's gonna work. It's just like there are always muscles in a pig that I don't think want to be cooked that long. That's all.
+
+[38:03] You know what I mean? It's the same reason why I have my issues with a whole pig barbecue. That I think that there are some cuts that are uh you know better uh done um other ways. It'll still be good. It's gonna be good.
+
+[38:15] I just it's hard to get a whole animal cooked right all at the same time. But you know what? You what I would do is test it a little bit. I would get like the relevant pieces in small bags before you do the cook. And then and that's what I did when I was working on the turkey recipe when I was working on the uh on the bionic turkey.
+
+[38:32] I don't know if you have, you know, where I ripped all the bones out of the turkey and then reassemble the skeleton and did all that stuff. The way that we did the tests on that was uh we first thing we did is I went and bought uh turkey breasts and uh turkey legs and and just ran a bunch of side by sides and said, okay, this level of salt uh cooked for this many hours, how does it taste? And then at this temperature, and then choosing uh things that were within a degree or two of each other so I could get them to come together at the same time. And that's the way I developed the recipe. So if I was gonna do a whole pig, I would do the same thing.
+
+[39:04] I would choose some of the larger muscles. I would get like a little piece of the belly, a little piece of the, well, you're not gonna have that much of it, a little piece of the loin, a little piece of the of like parts of the leg, and I would just run some time temps to see kind of where it was harmonious, and then see whether I could do something like add more or less salt to the uh to the parts that like might get stringy or maybe cure them so that they stay um kind of better over a long cook period. Because uh if they're cured, they'll hold up to that long uh ride better than not. Uh so I mean that's what I would do, and then figure out how much of a crazy person you want to be in terms of disassembling and reassembling this pig before you do the final roast. Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense.
+
+[39:46] Yeah. Oh, and uh an easy way um you're gonna do how are you gonna roast it? You're gonna get like a cajina afterwards to do the finish? But those are too slow. Are you gonna do like a big spit?
+
+[39:56] What are you gonna do to do the finish the finish on it? So I've done the kajachina the last three, four years, and I've just been really disappointed in the results, and I'm ready to up my game. So that's why I was thinking low temp. Yeah, um, but I I I may have to just go spit for the whole thing. Remember, if you do low temp, it gives you the ability to go higher temp on the spit so that you can, or you could do here's another thing.
+
+[40:18] You could do low temp for insurance, and if you get if you circulate, if you have something whose flavor is amazing, right? Then you can circulate it in that almost as though you're kind of poaching it. I'd run some tests first, and then pull it out, dry it out, and then just spit it at a higher temperature because it's already been cooked, and then you can focus just on the skin. That might be a good way around it. The other way is to low temp it, pull it out when it's hot, let the skin get really, really, really, really dry off of the low temp, really dry, and then just do the ladle fry over the whole thing.
+
+[40:50] And so for that, you know, you need a big super dangerous, but you know, you hold it above the oil, and then you just have ladles and hot fat, you just go, go, go, go, go. This is a huge terrible ignition. Uh you're putting yourself in danger of igniting it. However, it is delicious to do things this way. And what about bags for low-temping a big pig?
+
+[41:12] So they make uh vacuum bags uh that are meant for putting comforters in, and they're not technically food grade, but uh I'm not gonna say to use them. I've used them. You know what I mean? You have to, you know, be a little bit a little bit careful. But that's why if you had a liquid, you could just use oil.
+
+[41:33] But that's a lot, it's a lot of freaking oil. And oil takes longer to cook. So you have to be if you can't do a test for time where that you where your your time test is in water, and then assume that your time to cook is going to be the same when you're using oil, it's not. And you are gonna need multiple circulators and blah blah blah blah blah. But uh, you know, it's a lot of freaking oil.
+
+[41:54] Or, like I say, you could use uh one of these uh bags. But the issue with a pig is that the internal cavity of the pig is gonna be um is going to be hollow and filled with air, and it's really gonna ruin your um your cook times. So like the best way to do it is to literally uh like you can almost but then if it's flat, it'll be hard to reassemble it. That's why like when I do the turkey, I literally pipe hot fat inside the animal so that we're cooking in both directions at once. And you gotta remember that a 75-pound pig isn't that thick on the inside, and so uh you know, you can cook it a lot faster if you're piping the hot liquid into the cavity of the animal using two circulators, which is what I typically do when I'm working on larger, larger creatures.
+
+[42:38] And wouldn't ANOVA work, or do I am I gonna need to get one of the polyscience ones? Um I forget which one of the circulators I have has a problem pumping fat because of the viscosity, it auto-shuts down, but I don't remember which one it it it is. Um the new poly science ones, I don't think Philip wants you to put oil through them. This is again, like everything is about the testing. So like you don't want to show up with a pig in a circulator and then all of a sudden realize your technique's not gonna work, but it's like super easy to just throw a circulator into like you know a small container of oil, fire it up, not gonna ruin the circulator, right?
+
+[43:19] At least I have not yet ruined a circulator. Let's let's rephrase that. Uh and uh, you know, just see whether it runs. And one of them, and I forget which one it is, cuts out when you try to circulate oil with it. Doesn't kill it, put it back in water and it comes back to life.
+
+[43:33] But uh, yeah. Gotcha. Well, this is very helpful. I'll certainly keep you updated. Yeah, let us know how it works out.
+
+[43:41] All right, thanks, Dave. Alright, cool. Uh okay. So uh we've got a second question on uh on starch. Secondly, I've read uh Harold McGee and Kenji's takes on how hot and how much water is sufficient to cook pasta.
+
+[43:56] But is there a theoretical perfect temperature and potentially time for fresh uh or dry pasta? If it exists, couldn't we achieve that in a circulator? Uh many thanks, uh Brooke. Um I don't uh uh look I don't think that there's uh like m gonna be an advantage to circulating uh pasta, right? Here's why.
+
+[44:19] In order for the pasta to cook properly, the water's gonna have to be uh fairly close to boiling, right? In order to swell the starch and to get it to all work. So you're talking about a couple of degrees difference, but so it's not like making dashi with combo or something like this where you know you're talking about, oh, I'm gonna cook it at like 60, 70 degrees Celsius. You're talking like you're gonna be above 80 in change anyway. So I don't think the difference between 80 in change and a hundred is really going to be um like that much of a life changer in terms of the texture of of the pasta, so I don't think you're gonna really win.
+
+[44:53] I think the only time that it's really critical to get the water levels 100% right is if you're gonna can pasta and make soup. And we had a question on that, someone asked, but I've never really never really gotten to it. That said, uh, you know, I would go back and read Harold's uh article from a million years ago in the New York Times on uh pasta and and different um water levels. I just don't freaking worry about it. Do you worry about it much, Daz?
+
+[45:18] No. I just don't worry about it. When you use larger quantities of water, I have look, this is terrible, but like uh remember uh uh I use a lot of water, I have incredibly powerful gas burners, and I don't pay for gas. Uh right, my co-op pays for gas. And so this is a terrible statement to make, but I use excess gas.
+
+[45:39] I'm not, I'm not uh I don't conserve probably as much as I should the natural gas that I have. Um I tend to use a lot of water, and the reason I tend to use a lot of water is I don't measure the salt levels that go into the water, and larger amount of water in the pot is much more stable with a finished salt level in the given amount of pasta than um than a smaller amount of water because it's it just is, you know, because you have more water to work with. It's not for any temperature reasons, and it's not for rolling boil, and it's not for uh it's not for the pasta sticking together, it's because I want the salt levels to come out relatively similar. Um I know plenty of people like uh um Alex Nackey at Ideas in Food. They pie they they did the thing where they cold soaked pasta for a long time before they cooked it, right?
+
+[46:30] Uh their theory being it takes less time to cook, takes less energy to cook if you soak it beforehand. I don't know if that's true or not, but they they say that uh and they say that it comes out more uh even because it takes less time because water has intruded into the pasta, it takes less time for the pasta to cook through and hence it uh less degradation to the outside of the pasta before the inside is done. Is it true? Is it not? Don't know.
+
+[46:53] Uh I have other uh I had an Italian guy tell me that I should uh throw it in at the boil, bring it up to the boil, close it uh after you stir it to have it not stick, and turn the water off. Why? He didn't want the pasta to roll around and get beaten up on certain pastas, because he's saying that that's what causes a starch on the outside to get beaten up in the outside of the pasta to get mangled. Is it true? I don't know.
+
+[47:15] What I'm saying is is that I think there are about 8,000 different ways to get pasta cooked uh nicely, and I think it's more about pulling it at the right time than um anything else. What do you think, Stas? Yeah. That's that's about it here, Dave. Oh man, all right.
+
+[47:29] We have some more questions. We'll get to them next time on the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[47:52] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Cooking issues listeners. If you love Dave, Nastasia, Peter, Kim, me, the whole team, please consider donating to Heritage Radio Network. Today we need all the help we can get. HeritageRadio Network.org. Click on the beating heart.
+
+[0:14] Make sure you say cooking issues in the donation so we can shout you out. And any and all help is very, very greatly appreciated. Enjoy the show. Today's program is brought to you by the Dairy Farm Families of Wisconsin, the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board. Did you know that today Wisconsin produces more than 600 varieties, types, and styles of American, international style, and original cheese that win more awards than any other state or country?
+
+[0:41] To learn more, visit eat Wisconsin Cheese dot com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues!
+
+[1:34] Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia and the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas.
+
+[1:52] I figured I'd go full crazy today because on the way in, I s I like swallowed a bug and some concrete. And that was coffee and hacking. So you gotta go full. Like when you're not feeling 100%, you gotta do like 120, and then you come out at like 105 or 11. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[2:07] Joined in the booth with Jack, the Jackie Molecules. How are you doing? I'm good. Yeah, calling your questions too. 7184972128.
+
+[2:13] That's 718-497-2128. And if that was too fast for you, the number is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined also in the studio with our favorite uh subject of abuse, other than ourselves. Peter Kim, the I don't know, director, president, you know, like head cheese.
+
+[2:38] Like the he's he's number he's the 601st Wisconsin cheese that's uh produced if you listen to the uh introductory printing 600 kinds of cheese in Wisconsin. Leave it to Dave the Diss's sponsors. Oh are you saying that you wouldn't make a delicious Wisconsin cheese? Do you know that there are several Peter Kim's that are not our Peter Kim? There is a whole army of us.
+
+[2:59] There's being Peter Kim, a blog. Yeah, there's Peter Kim Peter Kim. Who is an actor, right? Then there's all kinds of Dr. Peter Kim.
+
+[3:07] Lots of doctors. Yeah. Are your parents now okay with you not being one of those doctors? Boom! Boom!
+
+[3:15] Ouch. For those of you that don't know, Peter Kim, not a doctor. Uh uh lawyer, actually. Quit his lawyering job to start the museum of food and drink, much to his family's chagrin. But now they're on now they're on the side.
+
+[3:29] They you've proven that it's good, viable concept. Yeah, I think they're they're taking pity on me. So what a feel good story. Yeah, it's a feel good story of the week. Follow your dreams, get your parents pity.
+
+[3:41] Okay, Stas, Nastasia Lopez, was in Mexico for about five hours last weekend. Revisiting her roots. Nastasia, yeah. So bring the Lopez back in there. It's the fatherland, right?
+
+[3:54] Because it's on her father's side. Uh back to Mexico. And um, Stas, let me see if I get this straight. You flew out Friday morning at like 5 a.m. Six.
+
+[4:08] Right. But how many times did you play ping pong around like Raiders of the Lost Dark style before you made it to Mexico? Okay. Now, uh, then you left Sunday morning at also like so you were there for exactly one full day. 36 hours.
+
+[4:22] Some of my friends thought I was getting an abortion. Whoa. Wow. Whoa. Did you remind them you live in New York and you don't have to go to Mexico for that?
+
+[4:31] They know my salary. Oh. Wow. So nothing. So inappropriate on so many levels.
+
+[4:44] Speaking of uh bad salary and people who happen to be women, uh Dax has now watched nine to five twice in one week. Wow. The classic movie Nine to Five. Lily Tomlin, by the way, freaking amazing. You know, I wish that she was involved in food somehow, Peter, so that we could twist her arm to be involved with the museum somehow.
+
+[5:03] Lily Tomla is so freaking awesome. I mean, Dolly Parton also freaking awesome. Jane Fonda, you know, you know, fine, good. Anyway, Lily Tomman. Okay.
+
+[5:13] So why don't you talk to us about the food you had there? It was okay. There was a lot of like sushi. What? Hamburgers.
+
+[5:21] Like regular like American interpretations of Japanese sushi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it's like three times culturally removed. Yeah, but I found a good Carnitas place and some other place, and then I saw a tortoise stand that said with pumpkin flowers. Yeah, the f sweet sweet florida calabaza.
+
+[5:38] I could do it with quesadillas, and they said no. Did you have one of the sandwiches with Florida Calabaza? No, that was not an option either. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So what they have?
+
+[5:46] Tortas. That's a sandwich. Oh well, it was not they weren't good Mexico. Like you saw that they were pre-made. Well how were they sauteed and then they threw them in the sandwich?
+
+[6:01] Yeah. And then they threw then they but why didn't you have the sandwich? I didn't want that. What did you think that they said tostada instead of torta? No, no.
+
+[6:09] So why did why when I said by the way, people torta is like the little folded up fried thing. No! Torta is a freaking sandwich. Sandwich. It's a freaking sandwich.
+
+[6:19] Well, I've got to be. By the way, Nastasia Lopez, half Mexican chick that grew up in LA, doesn't know a torta. Yeah, that's true. It's also really one of the finest sandwiches out there. Are we gonna go back into sandwich?
+
+[6:29] Every time Peter gives on people going to sandwiches. Yes, the tops of the list to me are Cuban. Uh oh, me too. Yeah, Cuban. Yeah.
+
+[6:37] Uh this is not in order, though. Patty melt. Patty melt. If it's not considered a burger, it's a sandwich, and it's one of the finest. It's one of the finest uh burgoloids, whatever you want to call the burger genre.
+
+[6:48] Uh torta. Torta. Bonnie? Yes, although it's not a single sandwich because you can have a variety of different bonies, but yes. Well, there's a format to it.
+
+[6:58] Yeah, yeah, it's a good format. Yeah. Um what else? Turkey club. Turkey club.
+
+[7:03] BLT. If done right. BLT. Yeah. Uh like BLT to me, superior to a turkey club.
+
+[7:09] Yeah. Well, and then for me, the egg and cheese sandwich is a classic, too. Yeah. Yeah. The day after Thanksgiving cold turkey sandwich.
+
+[7:14] That's also a good one. And then Italian cold cut sandwiches also. Also not a specific thing. You talking about like like Philadelphia style. I'm talking about like the the kind you get around where MoFat is.
+
+[7:30] Like you get, you know, there's like three or four different kinds of things. To me, this is classic, just liking what you're love the one you're with. Wait, did you say Ruben? Oh Ruben. Ruben's a good sandwich.
+
+[7:39] I don't know that it makes a top though. It's good. Yeah. In other words, like I don't know. There's so many.
+
+[7:43] If we're starting listing sandwiches, pastrami with mustard on rye. Yeah, it's excellent. I mean, please. Yeah. Please.
+
+[7:49] Yeah. Exactly. Standard crappy grilled cheese. Yep. Where does P B and J said?
+
+[7:54] Turkey wrap with alfalfa sprouts? I'll kill you if you ever mention that again. That is trying to mention all the poisonous things in one thing. Is there a way to make uh a flour tortilla without cooking it at all? Because that's that would be even worse.
+
+[8:09] Well, I think there are raw tortillas, yeah. They do it make it, don't they do it like anyone that would make a raw tortilla wouldn't put turkey in. Yeah. But they would have some sort of sprout abomination. Yeah.
+
+[8:20] Some sort of hideous sprout. Italian beef. The chat room says Italian beef. They want that to they want to mention. Well, if we're gonna go if we're gonna go hot, which I guess we did, we've gone hot several times.
+
+[8:34] Beef on wek, baby. For any bu any any Buffalo people here? No. Beef on Wec, you know why? They have the cumul buns, the car the uh salt and caraway buns, and then the the s thin sliced beef with the juice.
+
+[8:47] With the juice. Yeah. Yeah. I think what we're coming to realize is sandwiches are delicious. Yeah, they are.
+
+[8:55] I've been saying this for years, man. Peter, Peter, like uh you know, people are like uh if the bomb was gonna drop and you only had 15 minutes, which is like I can I can make a sandwich in 15 minutes. He would be eating a sandwich. I'd kiss my wife, make a sandwich. Yeah, well, in that order?
+
+[9:16] Yeah, it's or simultaneously. Yeah, honey, honey, yeah, yeah, okay. Enough with the smooching. I sandwiches, sandwiches, sandwiches. Uh what are your thoughts on the muffaletta?
+
+[9:24] Do you appreciate the mufflet or do you not appreciate the mufflet? I like the muffleta, yeah. It's very hard to get the bread to the to meats ratio correct in a muffaletta, I think. Here's a question. Do you do you like your muffaletta hot or cold?
+
+[9:35] That's an excellent question. Uh for those of you who don't know, it's the New Orleans sandwich. Uh I like them both, actually. I've had both styles be good. When I was a kid, I didn't used to so for tourists, right?
+
+[9:47] If central groceries like the classic tourist one, I like that now. Plain when I was a kid, I thought it was too much bread, but I'm good. I think uh whatever it is, Napoleon House, I think serves them hot. Well, how do you like them, Jack? Yeah, I go hot usually with that.
+
+[10:01] Really? Mm-hmm. I I don't love a muffaletta. I'm not like Ooh, why? You don't like the chopped up uh Jardinaire salad stuff?
+
+[10:08] Yeah, that stuff good. Yeah, I like it. You don't like them like it. No, I like having a sour element in the shrimp and oast oyster po-boys all day in New Orleans for really? Oh yeah.
+
+[10:18] Really? Yeah. I don't really like the po' boy bread. I'm gonna go on record. Wow.
+
+[10:23] Kind of gum. Yeah, but if you if you're in New Orleans and you ask for that particular sandwich. Right, yeah. Then you're getting that. I mean, then it's like that sandwich is what you're like, for that matter.
+
+[10:35] What are your thoughts on the all the various Philadelphia cheeses steaky things? Yeah. Oh, I mean. I love cheesesteaks, yeah. Why wouldn't you love cheesesteaks?
+
+[10:44] Why wouldn't you? What's wrong with loving a cheesesteak? You're giving me like it's a guilty pleasure. What's wrong with liking a cheesesteak? I don't believe it.
+
+[10:48] I mean, I the only reason I I said it with a side is because I feel like now the list is growing and growing where we were trying to come up with a tight list of like top sandwiches. Now we're just saying. I think from from a strictly sense of pure, pure, right? So let's let's take anything out that's served on a on a whatever you want to call it, a hoagie roll, a gr you know, a sub roll, whatever. Let's take all those things out for a second.
+
+[11:10] All right. Let's remove that crap. That gets rid of your eggplant parms. Yep, yeah. It gets rid of your meatball subs.
+
+[11:15] So sliced bread sandwiches on the bottom. Which by the way, are two things we didn't mention. Yes. Slice bread sets. Let's go on sliced bread.
+
+[11:21] That also takes out tortas. Yeah, yeah. And takes out no burgaloids, patty melts are served on freaking uh sliced bread. Yeah, I know, but like it's there's a not grilled. So you're saying not like no grilled cheese, is that doesn't count anymore.
+
+[11:31] You're saying like something served on regular or toasted sliced bread. Yeah, yeah. BLT straight. Yeah, I would go. That's God's sandwich.
+
+[11:40] It's gotta be the one. God came down and said, Oh, by the way, check this out, BLT. Yeah. In season. Tomatoes in season.
+
+[11:48] Yeah, yeah. Either that or the Turkey Club, I'd say. No, Turkey Club. Well, the best turkey club. I'm sure I throw this one out there because this is what I have m most often at the deli around the corner.
+
+[11:58] I do a grilled cheese with bacon and tomato. Yeah, it's yeah, good, but you've you've just grilled the cheese, dude. You just cheated. Yeah, I know I know. Nastasia doesn't like sandwiches because Peter Kim likes them.
+
+[12:08] Yeah. That's not we ate sandwiches yesterday. They were good. What's what's your worst nightmare of a sandwich, Sas? I don't know.
+
+[12:15] Biscuit with what? Do you what do you hate more? A biscuit based sandwich? We all know you hate biscuits, or a croissant based sandwich. They pick not everyone knows Nastassi also hates croissants.
+
+[12:24] Yeah. Really? You know what I hate are catering platter sandwiches. Oh, yeah. You just see that platter of the colour.
+
+[12:30] Okay, listen. That's the worst. Under lubricated sandwiches, yes, under lubrication. Like there's a rainstorm every time there's a dry sandwich out there and it's God crying. I know.
+
+[12:40] It's horrible. That's why I always go for the chicken salad or the tuna salad when I hit the catering sandwich. Except for what's the problem with all the tuna salad out there. Undersalted! Yes, no.
+
+[12:49] Salt your freaking tuna salad. Salt it. Um, like I like it when there's some texture in my tuna salad. Like, I like a little celery in mine. Me too, man.
+
+[13:01] Yeah. I like pickles in my chicken salad. Oh my god, good. Here's the thing. So for catering, first of all, if you're catering, there are always some D-bags out there who don't want salt on there.
+
+[13:09] So you should just put the salt out. Who's that person? They're the people who are in catered sandwiches. So what you gotta do is you gotta like put salt out there so that humans can salt it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:20] And like catered sandwiches also do a really poor job of getting like uh filling coverage. So you always get like the one third of the edge of the sandwich, it's just bread. You know why? Like empty space in between. It's some it's some jerk.
+
+[13:32] It's some jerk filling the sandwiches with an ice cream scoop. Exactly. With a dose of it. And the person's like, everyone gets the exact same amount of tuna salad. Yeah.
+
+[13:41] So like you scoop out like that amount of tuna salad, because this person doesn't care. It's like they've never eaten a sandwich. It's either they don't care about you as a human being, or they've never eaten a sandwich before in their life, or some combination of those two, and they just go, Yeah. They put that tuna salad scoop right in the middle of that bread, smack the next piece of bread, do the diagonal cut. Exactly.
+
+[13:58] Next. Yeah, yeah. It's really horror show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is a freaking horror show.
+
+[14:03] That's the worst. Well, and also those things aren't designed to sit around for a long time. So then the moisture migrates into the bread and it turns to a gum gum it's either too garden. Well, this is why you need to listen to the British. This is one of the times I'm gonna tell you, you need to listen to the British tea sandwiches.
+
+[14:17] Tea sandwiches. Those are the best catered sandwiches, man. When I need to do a picnic, I do tea sandwiches. Oh yeah. I love tea sandwiches.
+
+[14:24] Of course. This is the classic thing that people do. With i even professionals, when they move into catering or people when they order catering, here's a classic mistake people make. What they do is they say, what sandwich would I like to eat if I made it fresh right now? Right.
+
+[14:38] And then they make that. That's why you get all those rancid buffalo fake buffalo milk and tomato sandwiches at airports on that bread that has that wavy line of like water migration and the top's too dry and it's undersalted and you want to die and you're gumming that thing down and you're waiting for it to get on an airplane. You know what I'm talking about? No, I don't know. So rather than that, any like person should think, okay, here's the problem.
+
+[14:59] I'm gonna make a sandwich that's gonna s either sit on a platter for like hours. Yeah. Or I'm gonna wrap it and it's gonna sit for hours. So what do you do? The Brits the Brits have that nailed.
+
+[15:10] Yeah, yeah. Just make the British and then like, so what? If an American's like, man, I don't want a cute kind of sandwich, then don't eat. Jerks. Right?
+
+[15:20] Yeah, yeah, I'm ready. I'm right there with you, man. How the hell do we get on this? Uh by the way, next week we have on the program, super exciting. So I want you guys to think about questions for the guest we have on next week.
+
+[15:30] We're having on, right? This is confirmed stuzz? So far. Yeah. We have Richard Rangham coming on, uh, esteemed uh professor uh at Harvard University, who wrote the book Catching Fire, How Cooking Made Us Human.
+
+[15:45] And it's very topical that he's uh uh on uh next week because very recently a letter was published in uh Nature by uh two other people at Harvard, Catherine uh Zink with a K, not like the metal, Zinc uh and uh Daniel Lieberman. Daniel Lieberman, well known for writing uh uh books about the head, the human head, uh including his theory that uh humans um have a much more uh wide variety of taste uh sensations because we're one of the few animals that have retronasal olfaction that's one of his shticks. Anyway, they came out with an article in Nature saying that uh Rangham's hypothesis might not hold water. So briefly put so that you don't you should go out and buy his book anyway. It's very interesting read.
+
+[16:28] Uh you can buy it on Audible.com and listen to it on the way to the to the work but um which is actually what I did. But his basic theory is this that um the human brain takes up a very uh large amount of energy right relative to other primates. Uh how can we afford to have such a kind of a large and sophisticated brain how can we afford to be the way we are and he says that if cooking came very early in our split off from uh being uh regular primate to being uh human then then the availability of a denser um easier to digest and more efficient caloric intake right actually allowed for all of the other um all of the other developments evolutionary developments to take place so that actually cooking is intertwined with human evolution and what makes us human what allowed us to evolve into humans is our uh ability to cook foods that's the in a nutshell and it's been months since I've read it, slash listen to it, but that's his theory in a nutshell. And I think it's super interesting and and I I want to have him on, and also to address this new article by uh Zinc and Lieberman basically saying, look at you don't need to cook to actually uh I happen to think that their letter is not accurate. We'll get into it, but uh you don't necessarily need to cook things uh in order to get those benefits that just pounding the ever loving crap out of them can uh can do that as well.
+
+[17:57] So Rangham's his actual thesis is super interesting, and he's done such things as hang out with chimps for months on end, trying to chew chimp food, uh, et cetera, et cetera. Done a lot of interesting stuff, super interesting character. Other things in it, uh you know, in his one of his prior books is about um kind of male, male, female uh relations. I haven't read that one yet. Hopefully I'll get to it by next week.
+
+[18:19] So the there's lots of interesting sociological things about like who did the cooking, how early that split off happened between um like uh uh gender relations as it relates to food, super interesting. Also, he has some choice words about raw food diets, so I'm sure we'll get into that as well. So please save up some awesome questions for Richard Rangham on next week's show. That'd make a good exhibit at the museum too. Interesting topic to explore.
+
+[18:42] Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Uh and so the the real question for a museum exhibit based on this is i i mean, as it's a relatively new theory, you have to present it. I don't know, I don't know how we do it, but it is super interesting.
+
+[18:57] Yeah, yeah. You know, everyone's like, what is it that makes us human? It's our language, it's our this, it's our that. He's like, it's our cooking. But what's what what I like about his argument uh is the the style of presentation is look it.
+
+[19:10] Uh if you just use Occam's razor, like what's the simplest way to figure out, like we all know we have cooking now, right? He's very difficult to figure out exactly when cooking happened from the from the record, from the archaeological record. Um but he said Occam's razor shows that the simplest explanation for how we got to where we are is cooking. And so like any other explanation is actually more convoluted. And so until someone comes out with a simpler explanation that fits the data or finds data that contravenes this theory, this is the theory you should work with.
+
+[19:45] And I like that kind of that's that's my mode of my mode of thinking. Before Peter has to leave, let's talk to him about his stuff. Oh no. Let's do it's do the call. Call our caller on the air.
+
+[19:59] Dave, uh this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa. How's it going? All right, how you doing? Doing well. Uh I I recently mentioned uh your book, Liquid Intelligence to uh uh uh an associate, not a friend, uh not a friend.
+
+[20:16] And uh his his response was too science-y for me. What? And and it reminded me of the the reviews that you read on Amazon uh years ago, just muddle-headed fools. Uh and and here's so here's the thing. Even if I, God forbid, never have access to a rotary evaporator, I still benefit from understanding what what vacuum and distillation uh can achieve, what kind of flavor extension you can get.
+
+[20:45] Uh if I never have access to, or if I don't have access to a centrifuge, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know. I get I get your point.
+
+[20:56] We're coming so as soon as we can. I can't get I can't get the centrifuge. I have to make it good enough for for release. That's the thing. Nastasia, vouch for the fact that we're working hard on it.
+
+[21:05] Working hard. Working hard. All right, go ahead. That's fine. We're we we can wait.
+
+[21:09] But yeah, so even though I don't have a centrifuge, I still benefit from understanding the various clarification techniques and what you can do on different products. So the the book is useful no matter whether you have access to all of the equipment or not, because it makes you a better a better cook. I hope I hope so. This this bartender probably still can't even make a proper uh and just in Manhattan because they they think that you can chill a drink harder with large ice cubes without simultaneously uh diluting because they don't know the fundamental law of cocktails. Dirt.
+
+[21:41] Well, okay, let me ask you this. You can be very, very wrong and still make good drinks as long as your actual pri a lot of times people's practice doesn't jibe with their uh with their m mental representation of what what they're doing. Uh are is this person's drinks are they good? They're they're okay, but they're not consistent. Yeah, of course.
+
+[22:07] Okay. Yeah, I mean like it's more, I mean, w whether they can make a good drink or not. It's more just it's sort of like skimming the book and then deciding whatever those reviews were like too much information that just doesn't even make make sense. I know, but look, look, uh uh uh I have a very particular attitude and sounds like you also have a very particular attitude. Some people just don't respond well to like analytical thinking.
+
+[22:32] You know what I mean? They just don't they just don't respond. Uh so it's not for the section on just the section on apples is worth the worth the sticker price, and that's not as analytical, you know, it's just a more interesting read. I uh anyway, people should buy the book. Uh well thank you.
+
+[22:48] Thank you. Thank you so much. And tell your friend very gently, just be like, your drinks are good. I'm not saying that you have to do all sciencey stuff, but uh maybe you can work on the consistency. Maybe.
+
+[22:58] Yeah, yeah. Gent gentleness is is key when when interacting. Yeah, unless unless he's gonna go full Japanese, in which case it's like you don't want it consistent. Every drink should be like a journey from beginning to end. A drink should take 10 to 15 minutes to complete.
+
+[23:13] Um, you know, it should cost $30. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. There's that whole there's that whole genre as well. Yeah.
+
+[23:21] Yeah. Okay. Well, my question is about cocktails. Um I planned to for my future sister-in-law's bridal shower, uh, I plan to force carbonate a French 75 and bottle it. So I've done this in the past just by by uh clarifying lemon, chilling down gin and water, uh for carbonating that, and then just popping the bottle down.
+
+[23:44] Right. Does uh does Nastasia like a French 75 or is that just ruining champagne with with gin? She's not a huge gin fan. Stasmani, you yeah, I don't like it. No, good.
+
+[23:56] Yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh so my question is it uh pouring twice into those little 187 mil bottles is kind of a pain. And I'm wondering if there's a wine that could reasonably reasonably approach uh a champagne type note if if carbonated at a lower PSI. If I could just do the whole thing, dilute it, chill it down, and carbonate.
+
+[24:21] I don't even know what pressure champagne usually likes to sit at. Hi. But remember, once you turn it into a French 75, it's got so the classic French 75 is not very carbonated at all because it's just uh champagne added to the to the drink. Um I did I diluted it further than I I normally would if I was just shaking and I went up to like sixty percent water for that original base. Yeah.
+
+[24:44] I have to do some c I I mean I don't have uh my numbers, I'd have to do some calculation. I once did some work, in fact I was gonna have a sidebar in the book on French 75s, but I never uh did it and I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head. Um I mean champagne is obviously a very good carbonated wine and it's gonna add its own kind of uh yeasty notes to it. But you could use it. I mean, yeah, you could use anything.
+
+[25:11] I mean, I would use something that doesn't that uh you just have to test it. You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't use anything that didn't that tasted, you know wildly different. You wanna do it for you don't want to do you don't want to re you don't want to use champagne because of the of the price. I no no no.
+
+[25:29] I'm just wondering if I just pouring into those little bottles because I'm gonna make a bunch of these uh is just a pain and then I have to do it twice because I'm force-carbonating the gin mixture. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Just for like dump the entire whatever wine you use, just dump the entire mixture together, throw it in the freezer take away.
+
+[25:51] You know, you can't carbonate all the nucleation side. But you're gonna recarbonate it. You're gonna recarbonate it, right? So the actual hit hit the whole thing recarbonate it then with the original champagne. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:02] I like whenever I do uh this stuff, I I batch everything, including the stuff that's like originally carbonated. That original carbonation, that foaming that happens actually helps to kind of get some of the other gases and crap out of your mixture. Then you take that whole thing. Now you can taste it to make sure it's completely homogenous, chill it down until it's almost uh frozen, and then just re-carb the whole thing and pour it into bottles much easier and much more consistent. So but then when you you did mention price when you're buying champagne, are you paying for for the bubbles at all?
+
+[26:37] Is that gonna be a good one? Well, it's just a different you're paying when you're buying for champagne, you're paying for a you're paying for the f the fact that it's champagne, you're paying for the amount of time it takes, the process it goes through, right? So they're very they're typically uh relatively uh uh acidic um grapes. Uh they have to go through like uh you know the long you know long process, they then they get they get uh disgorged and then you know dosage and all this other stuff. So you're you're going through a big rigmarole to produce but I'm sure you can make a delicious uh you know s you know French, you know, 74 or 76 uh with a di with a different um, sniping for prosecco and lower the lower the sugar or something, something that's a uh per seco.
+
+[27:25] Yeah, I mean a proseco cava or even like uh maybe even a cremant might be nice. I mean like I would just I would just get like a bottle. Look, it's it's not a hard as long as you're getting uh uh you know something that you like drinking, it's not a hardship to you know open a bottle, make one seventy-five with it, feel how you feel about it, and then drink the rest as bubbles, right? Especially if you're gonna make a bunch, and then once you lock it down, then um once you lock it down, then now you have something in your pocket that you can do inexpensively. Like I used, I don't use it anymore, but like when I got married, because it was 20, you know, 22 years ago, uh, you know, I f I we went on a side buy, we tasted like a billion kavas side by side, and I stuck with that cheap kava for like 15 years.
+
+[28:08] Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's kind of gone downhill, so I'm not gonna recommend it, but you know what I'm saying? Like once you get a good thing in your pocket, then it's there for a long time. And what what pressure range would you uh would you try at least at first? Forty-five.
+
+[28:21] Forty five PS forty f for uh four, forty-five at four or five. Yeah, four or five. No. No, no, that's what typically it depends on what your alcohol content is. If you're getting your alcohol content down to like th like between thirteen and fifteen percent on your final batch, then forty-five Psi at at cold temperature is gonna be is gonna be good.
+
+[28:45] All right, I'll give it a try. Alrighty, let us know how it goes. All right, cool. Okay. All right.
+
+[28:50] Here's some uh here's some stuff in for wait, what were we gonna talk about with Peter again? Oh yeah, Peter's back. Are you are you staying for the rest of the uh time period? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let me let me give me let me get some stuff written there and then we'll talk about Peter's.
+
+[29:01] We'll talk about uh have you ever heard of the um I want to hear this now. The House Guest Olympics. It's something that that my wife and I, Jen, we used to do it's called the House Guest Olympics. Nobody knew they were participating in the house guest Olympics. But we would rate people after they came based on like how good of a house guest or how bad of a house guest is a house guest.
+
+[29:20] Well, this changes every time I go over to your place now. Yeah. How bad was I? House guests have to sleep over, by the way. How bad am I?
+
+[29:28] You're you're fine, Stas. You're fine. I can't rate you on the house guests, and you're basically like, you know, almost like a family member at this point, so it doesn't count. Yeah. But um you know, we've known each other for how many that's not true.
+
+[29:40] I've rated people that I've known for like over a lot of people. But it's a question of like how you've been rated because I I love snacks. Snacks is good. No, but also it's like house guess Olympics is most normally when they're staying there when you're there. So it's how they interact with you.
+
+[29:53] So if someone shows up at your house, right, and then is like, and I don't want to be a bother, I don't want to be a bother. So they bring like their own like milk and stuff. That's weird. Like that like knocks me down in the House Cap Olympics. When people like leave crap in your bathroom, House Gaf House Guest Olympics way down.
+
+[30:10] With someone like Nastasia, like leaves wine and snacks in the thing, that's very good on the House Cats Olympics. When I thought that she blew up our fireworks, that knocked her down a couple of pegs. But the fireworks, they were found. Yeah, so like, yeah, so the fireworks, so that knocks her back up on the House Guest Olympics. And plus, when you came with uh Mark, you guys brought tons of uh awesome uh uh Italian products, so you're doing quite well in the House Guests Olympics.
+
+[30:34] Wow. So but anyway, so so Peter has some House Guest Olympic stuff going on that we'll talk about after we get into some questions. I don't want to get into it. She doesn't look like a cliffhanger over. This is from well, we assume not.
+
+[30:45] This is from uh Mark Powie uh in uh the District of Columbia. Uh Dave mentioned that he wanted to investigate the contents of cooked versus rotovapped maple syrup. I did say that. Sap, actually, maple sap. So the theory being that if you're if you're doing it at low temperature, that you're not uh going to have the same flavor.
+
+[31:05] There's already some work in this area, but with more of a focus on human health than on deliciousness, of course, of course. See uh Navindra uh serum's work at the University of Rhode Island. Cooking the sap does in fact result in new process derived molecules, like a polyphenol named Quebecal, like Quebecois. Why do they name it after it has a weird voice? Hey Dave, what's the what's the Alex Tribex?
+
+[31:31] What did you want to make? Oh, uh Trebecois. Trebaqua, yeah, his own nationality. And and if you're a Trebecois, you not only pronounce French in a weird way, no offense, Quebec folks, but you uh also try to pronounce everyone else's language like Alex Trebek does. That's what it takes.
+
+[31:51] Do you like Alex Trebek, Peter? No. What are your feelings, Jack, on Alex Trebek? Neutral. I don't know.
+
+[31:56] Well, what's with the no? Why? Like, what's wrong with Alex Trebek? I don't know, man. You know what it is?
+
+[32:00] It's seeing him in taxis that pisses me off. It's like before I was like, oh, Alex Trebek, he's an intellectual guy. He's intellectually curious. You know, he seems to be a good arbiter of the truth. And then you see him in the tax and you realize he's just another like show.
+
+[32:14] Well, he became really self-aware and got all kind of like a parody of himself. Yeah, exactly. When I was a kid, when I was with my grandma, we used to sit and we would watch Wheel of Fortune with Pat Sajak and Van A White, and then Jeopardy with the Alexander. Oh, yeah, same. I was a huge fan.
+
+[32:29] Huge fan. And then, like, you know, just after a while, like him like pronouncing all the Spanish words with that freaking lisp, even if this person was freaking Mexican or from South America. I'm like, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's a big peppy of mine.
+
+[32:41] Like, that's where he's like, I see a Marquez. Like, listen, like the regional lisp, what the hell? If you if if it's a Spanish person, fine. If you're gonna pronounce someone What if he learned his Spanish in Spain? From like Ecuador, from like Colombia, from Mexico, then you don't pronounce Spanish that way.
+
+[32:56] Just pronounce it like an American or a Canadian, then. You know what I'm saying? If you're gonna mutilate, if you're not gonna do it like the person who would if they were alive, right? But that's how he learned to speak Spanish was Spain. What?
+
+[33:10] Yeah. Oh, really? I didn't realize he was a Spanish professor in Spain. Yeah. I was wrong.
+
+[33:14] Here's the other thing. Also, like how he like, he's like, oh no, the answer was blah. Like, or the question was blah. Of course he knows. He has the answer in front of him on a card.
+
+[33:26] I don't know, man. Trebek. Yeah. Tribequa. Trebicoa.
+
+[33:28] Yeah. Uh anyway, uh polyphenol named Kebacal. Given that there are amino acids and a lot of sugar in the sap, I expect some Myard products as well. I wonder if any volatile components can be pulled off and collected from maple syrup. I think I've tried.
+
+[33:45] It's hard. I mean, like, there is a volatile note to it, obviously, but I can't. I think I've tried distilling uh syrup, but I don't um I can't remember whether I got good results or not. I don't think I did. I don't remember.
+
+[33:59] I also wonder about separating some of the flavorants from the sugars. I'm thinking of trying a recrystallization from ethanol. Uh Mark Powie. Uh man. And then they he links to some of the papers.
+
+[34:10] I can't uh access the the full articles, but um, you know, it's on uh University of Rhode Island's uh website. That's super interesting. Thanks for writing that in, and hopefully, if you you know do anything interesting with it, you'll write back and tell us more. Um I'm interested. Were we ever gonna get some maple sap and do a demo at the museum, Peter?
+
+[34:26] Uh no, I don't remember. I don't think so. Maybe we should be great. Maybe we should a little late in the season. Yeah.
+
+[34:35] Do you know that uh the NPR did an April Fool's joke a long time back saying uh that if you that trees were exploding because people weren't tapping them, and if you don't tap the maple trees that they would explode, they did it, and people actually believed it. It's pretty hilarious. The best NPR April Fool's joke was when they did uh uh the headline was studies show that nobody reads head, nobody uh people only read headlines and not the actual article. And then there was like thousands of comments and people like, you jerks, I read the article, I read the article. Of course I do.
+
+[35:04] And then the body of the article is This is his name for food's. This is an April Fool's joke. That's that's pretty that's that's awesome in meta. I have a good April Fool's joke, the best one I ever did. If we have time at the end of the show, you can have me tell it because it is our April Foods.
+
+[35:17] Tomorrow is Dave's birthday. Tomorrow is my birthday. How old are you going to be? Uh 45. Hey, it's Jeremy from Seattle.
+
+[35:23] Hope all is well on your thing. Hope all is well on your side of the world. Uh have a quick question for the show finally. I brined and water bath a three-pound. This is late, by the way, because obviously this is no longer uh relevant to Jeremy, but I brined and water bath a three-pound pork loined at 145 Fahrenheit for 3.5 hours last night.
+
+[35:42] Someone give me that number in Celsius, please. Uh I pulled it out, dried it, and seared it. Uh after ate a few slices at about 9 30 p.m., all right. Popped it back in the bag, uh, displacement sealed it, and tossed it into an ice bath. So he didn't really do a vacuum on it, so there's probably, you know, not 100% oxygen free.
+
+[36:00] Then I promptly passed out on the couch. I am familiar with this problem. Uh woke up about 12 30 a.m. and having completely forgotten about the pork, crawled upstairs and got ready for bed. Got up around 5 30 and remembered, book.
+
+[36:13] And ran down and checked the water temp. It was 61 degrees Fahrenheit, so I threw it in the fridge to chill, hoping it's okay to eat tonight or tomorrow. Any suggestions or warnings? That's from last week. So if you're alive, Jeremy, I would eat it.
+
+[36:28] Like, I would just reheat it. You're probably looking you killed all of the uh aerobic stuff. I don't think uh, you know, I'm not an expert in this. I didn't have time to look it up too much. I don't think there's a lot of spore forming uh aerobic bacteria.
+
+[36:41] I don't think you made an anaerobic enough environment to cause uh the spores to germinate during that period of time. And anything you did, you could just do a quick kill on the outside. Remember, you cooked it and totally killed everything, then you seared it, then you put it back in a bag. So to me, it's like similar to like a deli meat that's been sitting out, even though it wasn't cured. It was brine, too.
+
+[36:58] So it was salted on the outside. So my feeling is that if you know if you ate it, you're probably safe. And if you didn't eat it, you probably would have been safe, especially with a light sear to make the family less quee and nervous about it. The thing is like uh the I always use the same uh thing. Would I feed it to my family or not?
+
+[37:19] Yes. Bang. You know what I mean? That way you can't say Dave says it's safe. I'm just saying, what would I do?
+
+[37:25] Just in a similar way to what would Brian Boitano do. Uh Ben wrote in about salmon. I have a question about locks slashed smoked salmon. I love this stuff, and I'm happy to patronize its local purveyors. Uh patronize is a weird term because it it's either very good or very bad.
+
+[37:41] How did that happen? I don't know. Local purveyors. That's patronizing them. Oh, look at your little locks.
+
+[37:49] Yeah, yeah. Uh anyway. No, patronize, give them money. Very good. See what I mean?
+
+[37:52] Yeah, yeah. Could go either way. Uh shout out to Shelski's and Russ and Daughters. You been to Shelski's yet? Nope.
+
+[37:58] I haven't either. Uh I mean Russ and Daughters. I have to go like I hear it's good. I have to go like I go to Russ and Daughters probably once a week because Booker and Dax forced me to go. I mean, I would go anyway, but they forced me to go.
+
+[38:08] Anyway. Trout caviar is on the Dave Bingo game that Nastasi and I play. What's that? What's that? Well, there's like stories that you bring up here and there.
+
+[38:17] So if we I didn't even mention it. You mentioned it. No, I know. See, see how you self-perpetuate things. I wasn't gonna go that.
+
+[38:24] I know. I'm just saying. You were about to go there. I wasn't. I would very much like to see the bingo board.
+
+[38:29] No bingo board, it's in our heads. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. And they add to it, whatever. Nastasia is the queen of this.
+
+[38:35] I knew you were gonna say that. Well, then why didn't you say it beforehand so you could prove it? Why didn't you write it on a piece of paper folded in half and hand it to me after I said it? See, that would be that would be like the amazing Randy moves. Let's build an actual board.
+
+[38:47] No, it's because they can't put their freaking money where their mouth is because they're jokers. We can. We can. Jokers. That, by the way, is also a bingo item.
+
+[38:55] Jokers? Jokers? Jack, when's the last time you heard me call someone a joke? I've never heard you say the word joker. Boom.
+
+[39:01] Putting us down is definitely on the bingo board. No, that that's just because it needs to happen. That's not a bingo. That's like saying, oh, Dave, do you need to breathe? Yeah, or you die.
+
+[39:09] You know what I mean? Okay. Uh caller on the line. Also on the bingo board. All right, call, caller.
+
+[39:15] Uh we'll get we'll get back to your salmon question. Caller, you're on the air. Okay, yeah. I hope your uh retina has not detached, but I'll quickly get to my question. I uh I had a curious uh idea.
+
+[39:26] You know, they have like that debate in barbecue where some people cook things hot and fast and some people cook things low and slow. What do you think of that, number one? And the other question is how does that relate to regular brazing? Like some people like to braid stuff at like a 350 degree temperature, and some people like to braid stuff at like a you know a 280 degree temperature. Is there really that big of a difference?
+
+[39:50] And what do you think? Here's the thing. To me, when it comes to barbecuing, hot and fast is really just like some variant of grilling. You know what I mean? So uh the it's just gonna be it's gonna be different.
+
+[40:04] You're not gonna get like a like what you consider barbecue from a pit standpoint is like you have to do a lot of uh tissue breakdown, and that just doesn't happen quickly. You know what I mean? That happens. I know there's just so many people that do that. Like, not, you know, garbage web blogger people like major people that do that, and they don't think it matters.
+
+[40:24] Like how fast? Yeah, like I mean, like Ed Mitchell cooks it like 3150 degrees. But like open or like c or like wrapped and closed. Yeah, no, I mean like for a temperature for a time of you know four hours or it's a locked and clo and closed. And then several other big barbecue guys, they they cook stuff at like plus 300 degrees.
+
+[40:49] They're also doing whole he's doing whole hog, right? Ed Mitchell's doing whole hog. Yeah, whole hog, but I've seen him do other things like the same exact way. Smaller stuff? Yeah, like ribs or anything like that.
+
+[41:01] I mean the bigger the bigger something is. You know, for that amount of time, and they seem to be kind of doing that same temperature on a on a smoker. Right. Look look, so let's look at it this way. When you're let's go to brazing first.
+
+[41:24] If you're brazing, and and remember, like, you know, if you like Ed Mitchell's product, then obviously they're doing something right, whether or not it whether or not it fits with kind of what we theoretically think, right? If you like their product, then they make a good product, and so you have to investigate what they do to figure out like why it works the way it does. I'm just gonna say that uh off the top. Now, when you go to brazing and you're looking at uh a brazing phenomenon, um the biggest difference in a braze is whether or not the lids off or lids on, right? So if you if you're if your lid is on, then the braze is getting up to two twelve, right?
+
+[42:02] You're not really building any pressure. Anyone who says that you're building pressure, it's nonsense, it's horse crap. You know what I mean? Unless it's in a pressure cooker. Because even a very slight over pressure on the order of, you know, decimal PSI would be is enough physical force to make the lid fly off of anything that you would have on there, right?
+
+[42:20] Uh so that whole thing about like pressurizing it that people used to say like, put aluminum foil and then push it down and you form a pressure. No, crap. You know what I mean? But you are getting it up to 212 or higher, actually, depending on how not much higher, but higher, depending on how thick the goop is that you have the thing brazing in. With the lid off, you're getting evaporative cooling, and so the temperature is significantly lower, like uh, you know, somewhere probably in the you know high eighties or nineties, right?
+
+[42:50] Uh is Celsius. Um McGee knows the exact answer because he's done these things, but um so with the lid off, as long as you keep the liquid level right, I don't know that you're gonna have that much of a difference whether your oven is above two twelve or not. It's just gonna you'll probably increase the evaporation rate if you have a higher oven, but you're not probably gonna d materially affect uh uh what you're doing. Now, when it comes now, let's let's let's transfer this over to barbecue land now. So let's say you're doing uh let's say you're doing something at like 350, right?
+
+[43:28] So what's the difference to the meat at the very inside of uh a whole hog when you're doing 350? Answer? Not a whole hell of a lot, right? Because still locally where you are in the meat, assuming that you're a tiny trichinosis worm on the inside of a piece of pork, right? Assume right.
+
+[43:47] If you're in there, you are never gonna get above uh two twelve. Ever. You know what I'm saying? Until all of your moisture is out and the and that and the temperature then can rise above the boiling point of water. So a high temperature on uh on what would typically be a brazing cut or something that's going to cook for a long period of time is just going to affect the amount of meat that uh can be uh desiccated on the outside right and so what I assume that he would get would be a much higher uh portion of um of uh desiccated dried out overcooked crunchy bits and maybe he likes that yeah exactly you know what I'm saying uh but that's why I asked on smaller cuts of meat it would seem to be a lot more detrimental because you could dry out a significant portion of it before the inside is uh tender enough for your for your feet for your you know hopes and desires does that make sense I would say I would think so yeah I just remember you know on the braising side I remember reading you know like in the French laundry cookbook where they they talked about brazing everything under 300 degrees because they thought it was more gentler but if you're if your water temperature is never getting over a significant thing it doesn't seem to matter.
+
+[44:58] I don't think it yeah I don't think it matters much. You know next time we get McGee on see if you can like like we like he loves to talk about this stuff so we can uh we'll we'll have that debate I'm sure he you know he'll he'll go on a tear as much as McGee goes on a tear which is not you know he's not like a I don't know he's not like a rant well he doesn't rant in public much. It does seem it does seem to it does seem to take longer when you braze things in liquid at a lower temperature than versus at a 350 even smaller even small changes in um temperature affect uh by a bit how long it takes uh collagen to break down. And that's what I'm really wondering about is it more of a collagen thing or a you know yeah, collagen breakdown, but the difference in the in the texture of a protein at uh you know 85 Celsius and at 100 is like you know, it's the freaking same. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:52] It's like it's overcooked, you know what I mean? Well, that's why you have to have other flavors or things or a lot of collagen to break down. And one of the reasons why I am not the biggest fan of whole hog, because then stuff you're doing that rancid overcooking to stuff like the loin. Now what? You know what I mean?
+
+[46:09] It's like you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I don't know why people like it. Because they hack the whole freaking thing up, and you have some stuff that tastes really good and some stuff that's overcooked, and so you average it out to being something that that's good. But I, you know, I in my book, why not like cook the loin exactly the way you want it, then cook all the like the low and slow stuff the way you want it, hack it up and have it all be better, right, Peter? Well, there's the ceremony to it, right?
+
+[46:33] I mean it's the reason why we do whole turkeys for some. Well, that's why you want to do like a whole turkey. You're right, you're right. Okay. Oh my god.
+
+[46:40] Okay. The high pitched voices of bingo. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:46] Can we get to Peter's story? No, there's no. All right. Yeah, we have to, because we're wrapping up. Well, hold on a second, I gotta finish the salmon question.
+
+[46:52] Justino, hold on a second. All right. So um, I'm happy to patronize local purveyors. Shout out to Shelskis and Russ and Daughters, but I was wondering if it was worth making this stuff at home. I would also be curious to hear the cooking issues team thoughts uh on uh the product.
+
+[47:06] We all like smoked salmon, right? Locks and by the way, in my in my world, lox is lox, i.e. not smoked. Salt, salt, and sugar cure either wet or dry, and then you know, allowed to dry off a little bit and sliced. To me, that's locks, right?
+
+[47:21] And and the smoked salmon, like Nova style, gas bell, all that stuff, smoked salmon. Okay? Boom, bump. And we're talking cold smoked salmon here, not hot smoked, all right? We're all on the same page?
+
+[47:31] Okay. Uh I think basically I need a primer, but here are my questions. Any thoughts on reliable books slash recipes, especially for traditional Jewish appetizing styles, i.e. Nova Locks, Belly Locks, etc. Uh thoughts on the curing step, dry versus wet, and equipment.
+
+[47:47] I have a backyard and a Weber charcoal grill, but I assume I'll need to invest some sort of cold smoking rig, yes. Do you have any recommendations on makes styles, etc.? Are there any that do double duty as a hot smoker that are worthwhile? How about wood? Thoughts on the species, pellets versus chips, others, etc.
+
+[48:01] And fish, how high a grade do I need to go? Should I be looking for the stuff I'd make sashimi with, or is my usual pricey NYC supermarket salmon okay? Thanks in advance. Been a listener since day one, and the show has seriously helped me up my cooking, eating, mixing, and drinking game. Ben.
+
+[48:14] Okay, first of all, let's start on salmon, because we're gonna we're gonna run out of time here. And we got to get a Peterson. So if we start on salmon, uh definitely salmon's gonna make a huge huge freaking difference in this, and you're gonna want to choose what you want based on the fat variety. So I would go to Russ and Daughters and I would ask them what kind of salmon things are made out of. So for your first choice is Atlantic salmon versus Pacific salmon.
+
+[48:36] And then if you're gonna go either of those, uh you you really should either buy stuff that's sushi grade, uh, which has been frozen, or you should freeze it hard in your in your freezer for uh over for over a week to uh kill any uh worms, anascus worms or tapeworms that are in it, because the curing step may not kill it, especially uh cold smoke step. But investigate this so Chinook obviously has the highest fat content, king salmon. So if you want a very high fat content, and this is like um the salmon that you would get from New Zealand, New Zealand King salmon, or a gold, like that's the stuff that they make the New Zealand King salmon that you get at uh Russ and Daughters. I think that's that stuff's fantastic. It's super high in fat.
+
+[49:14] It's got a very nice texture because it's been uh anesthetized before they kill it, so it stays very firm. So over, you know, uh, you know, that stuff is uh is good. I think the salmon's gonna make a huge uh difference. Uh I also called up uh Nils, Norrin, to get his regular gravadlocks uh recipe. And oh my god, I can't.
+
+[49:35] Oh, here it is. Uh I'm trying to find it. I wrote it down, but I guess it didn't get pasted in. Should I do that next week? Should I talk about salmon recipe next next week?
+
+[49:45] Uh and versus cold smoking, like I'm sure other people have a lot more experience with different cold smokers. Typically it's done with like pipes and uh ice over the things to make to make it done. But the the people on the internets will will will help us out, and we'll talk about it more next week. So, Ben, we're gonna get back to your question uh more next week. Peter, uh Nastasi, why don't you go?
+
+[50:03] Why don't you say what the story is? Uh Peter had a terrible house guest. All right, that terrible house guest, what did they do, Peter? First of all, they were there was an Airbnb person. Peter had an Airbnb person come over.
+
+[50:12] So uh and they stayed there. They are a med school student, and they drank all of his liquor. Yeah. Without saying anything. They drank all of his freaking liquor.
+
+[50:23] Including, and I don't know why you had a bottle of this, a whole bottle of Malibu. Look, there are things that people bring over who are low on the house guest Olympics. So this lady was doing you a favor. Those things sit in the bar. So this lady gives you a favor.
+
+[50:41] And she had bottles, magnum bottles of yellowtail lying around empty, lying around her her her room in the Airbnb thing, and she never had house guests over. This is some nice and Harold McGee. Yeah, it's she she blamed Harold McGee because Harold McGee did stay there once. All right, so listen, on the way out, I'll tell you quickly uh my my April Fool's joke uh that we did. So this was in 1990.
+
+[51:03] This was before uh we had uh anyone, we had one guy on the floor. This is in college, uh my freshman year, uh had a laser printer. He was a senior. No one had a laser printer, no one even no one laser printer, right? So what we did for April Fool's Day is all the freshmen lived in specific entryways in in our college, in our college dorm.
+
+[51:24] Uh and we wrote uh a letter, and I can still remember it to this day. We faked Yale Stationery, which is where I went to college. We faked the Yale Stationary, faked everything, and printed this letter out and gave it to every single freshman. Due to the unusually high number of matriculating transfer students, we will not be able to offer a place in the sophomore class to all of our current freshmen. Please find below an application for sophomore standing uh to be filled out and handed in to your um RA by the end of the week.
+
+[51:50] Wow. And we folded it up along with an application and put it in everyone's cubby hole on like laser printed. And our state our fake stationary looked better than Yale's real stationary at the time. We got the linen paper, we got everything. People flipped out, and all of the saw uh all of the freshman counselors, right, played along.
+
+[52:10] They all played along, and we didn't even talk to them about it. They just all played along. We like had people flipping the hell out. And that is the roughest April Fool's joke that I've ever been uh involved in uh playing on somebody. Wow.
+
+[52:23] Cooking issues. Happy birthday! Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[52:50] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission-driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hey, hey, I'm Jim. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, not Jimmy Carbone. Coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. I'm bruting calling your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[0:47] That's 7184972128. Stas, you like how I put a little Broadway to the. Did you see what that lady did? No, what she did. Well, because I put the Broadway on my voice, and she's clearly not a Broadway.
+
+[0:58] Did you enjoy the Wait, who? Uh an employee or a customer? A customer? Customer. Oh, cool.
+
+[1:04] Yeah, whatever. Like that seat was there to punish customers. You know they only put people there that they hate patents. Only when there's not a radio show going on. At least not when we're doing it.
+
+[1:14] Right. I mean, you know, you know what I'm saying. So we are joined in studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Peter's coming for lunch. Uh again, this is information that the people in uh out there in cooking issues lands.
+
+[1:28] Don't need to know. I think they care. Yeah, yeah. But he's not here for them. Hey, by the way, odds are Peter Kim took a shower this morning.
+
+[1:35] No, no, I'm saying if you're not going to be able to do You know what? At some point this evening, Peter Kim will go to sleep, and then tomorrow he's gonna wake up when he's thirsty, as David Letterman used to say, he will drink a cool, refreshing beverage. And it will slake his thirst. I mean, he's not gonna be here to like, you know, for their benefit, so what the hell do they care? People like Peter Kim, I thought, but that's fine.
+
+[1:55] But that's not like Jack, are you with me on this at all? Joining the booth also about Jackie Molecules? I don't know. There's some Peter Kim fans in the chat room. But I'm saying, like, like that's even meaner then.
+
+[1:59] Peter's not gonna be here with you. Well, that's what Stas is doing. She's torturing them. It's like Peter's gonna join us for lunch, but he won't grace you with his presence on the show, you know? Wow.
+
+[2:14] Yeah. Okay. So Grace. So uh unfortunately, not joined via telephone today with uh Professor uh Richard Rangham of the Harvard University. Apparently, do you have a want-wan noise in there, Jack?
+
+[2:32] So strong. So strong. I wish May 3rd. I wish I played like uh a trumpet or anything like brass so that I could put a hat over the front of it and make that noise. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:43] It's just such a classic, it's like an in your face. Can I hear that one more time? But what you do have is a boat. Oh my god. Whoa.
+
+[2:56] Look, I mean, did you see it, Jack? I look, that might be one of the reasons. So here's the thing. The doctor gave me like free reign now to do whatever I want. Like I can I can take up my amateur career in boxing again.
+
+[3:06] I don't have an amateur career in boxing. Uh with my eye, like my eyes, but then over the weekend, I I literally tore a muscle in my arm, ripping vines out of the ground in advance of them blooming. I f actually I don't know. My wife is like, you need to go to the doctor. And I'm like, what the hell are they gonna do about it?
+
+[3:24] My arm hurts. Like, what is a torn what is a torn thing feel like? Is anyone torn anything ever? Does anyone know what a torn thing feels like? Not that I know of.
+
+[3:32] I mean, I've broken things. Malcolm says it hurts like hell. Yeah, but is it is it possible that it hurts? Like, in other words, like I can move my arm like down and like this. I can go bibbity bibbity bibity-bibibbity boo, right?
+
+[3:44] Bibbity bibbity boo. But I can't extend my arm. Yeah, Nastasia. No, it's right like on the side of my arm. Like I can't extend my arm like I can't like punch nostalgia as much as I want to with my left hand, or like do like fist pumps in the air of victory with my left arm anymore because of like intense, intense sharp pain.
+
+[4:06] If you tore a muscle, you c you could be releasing whatever that stuff is. What the hell are you talking about stuff? Like there's some kind of yeah, somebody told me that. Okay, yeah, somebody. You sound like Dax who like comes with him with the craziest theories from his dirtbag buddies, the craziest freaking theories.
+
+[4:22] Wow, dirtbag buddies is a great band name. Oh my god, it's the best, right? That's good. Dirtbag buddies. Um I I use the term dirtbag buddies so much that I've actually called Dax's friends dirtbag buddies in front of the dirtbag buddies' parents by mistake.
+
+[4:38] Oh my god. I'm like, yeah, Dax is out with his dirtbag buddies. I mean, not your kid. Your kid's not a dirt bag. I mean, they are you know what I mean?
+
+[4:44] You know how it is. All kids are kind of dirtbags, right? Boats. Yes. Look, I don't know that we have time to get into the boat.
+
+[4:50] Look, I've I was at the dump, right, as I am wont to be at the dump, and I picked up a uh someone threw away a boat. Turns out it was uh made for the Sears and Road Buck Corporation in the mid 60s. Uh it is a 14 foot fiberglass runabout, but the hole is fine. All I need to do is find an I found out later I can buy one of these for like three dollars and fifty cents. And I'm gonna have a tough time getting it uh registered because it has no owner and I can't find an owner.
+
+[5:19] Do you have to? Yeah, it's like you can't just like suddenly show up at the DMV with a car and being like, hey, where'd it come from? I found it. You know what I mean? It turns out you can't do that with a boat either.
+
+[5:30] Be like, what is the the dump gonna write you an affidavit? Yeah, yeah, that was dumped off you. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[5:37] How you register a boat that doesn't exist? Plus, I have to do a lot of fiberglass work. I have you could go to the Sears Company and you could give the thing. No, they don't make it. It's like Kenmore.
+
+[5:46] They don't make any of that stuff. They don't make any of that stuff. And there's no online, there's no online way to trace boat ownership because I have the old Connecticut registration number on it. Anyway, it's not worth the amount of time and energy I'm gonna put into this dang thing, but I definitely want to get that son of a gun out on the water. It's got a really cool like curved front windshield, it's kind of Robin's egg.
+
+[6:05] It's really nifty. And the wood is still good. It's got a couple of problems, like none of all the metal is stripped off by freaking scavenger freak shows. You know, people show up at dumps with screwdrivers, just take off little pieces of metal. I mean, whatever.
+
+[6:16] It's good business, I guess. Whatever. Uh, point being, uh, we I have I have a couple people. Remember, remember Captain Jeff, Crazy Jeff intern. Yeah.
+
+[6:25] He's a captain of he is a Coast Guard guy. One of my favorite cooking guys, Coast Guard Lunatic. He he used to captain one of those rescue boats that can flip over in the water where in order to be on it, registrant, you have to strap yourself to the top side and it capsizes and it takes like a full minute to flip around, so you have to hold your breath underwater the whole time. He's the guy that married the judge and that he had a hearing in front of for some sort of crazy like 200 mile an hour speeding ticket or some nonsense on his motorcycle. That's not a real story.
+
+[6:55] It is a real story. And dude, the guy back when he was in the in the service was a uh was uh a demolitions expert. Guy's a straight nut job. Wow. Love that guy.
+
+[7:07] Look, that guy, I don't know if anyone listening, why this person doesn't have some sort of a TV show, I have no freaking idea. What's the guy in the big Lubowski, his friend? I don't know. I haven't seen it in decades. Uh whose animals.
+
+[7:14] Yeah. Anyway, he w we he went to the French Culinary Institute, and so you know, he's a he's a cooking guy as well. But I mean, man, he is like he's like the Long Island version of Duck Dynasty without the beard. You know what I mean? He's like you know what I'm saying?
+
+[7:34] We gotta get him on the show. Yeah, sure. I love that guy. He's a good guy. He always brings a gun with him.
+
+[7:40] I don't know whether he still has his concealed carry, but he once okay, I shouldn't say this, but since it's all over, I think it's okay. He was once packing freaking heat at the French culinary under his whites. Who are you gonna shoot in the head at the French culinary well, plenty. Yeah, no. Plenty.
+
+[7:59] Anyway. Alright. So we have some questions to get to. Uh, so we might as well uh get to them. Oh, you said when's the rangum gonna come on now?
+
+[8:06] May 3rd. May 3rd, huh? Yes. Unless he decides to cancel again. You know, I was gonna be very favorable towards him on uh not I mean what his theories are his theories, but like there's some people who have come out kind of against his theories.
+
+[8:19] I was talking about him last week. And I was gonna like say all sorts of unpleasant things about them, but maybe now I'll be a little no, not really, you know me. Like uh I'm gonna be excited to talk to him when he finally comes on, but whatever. Uh so I'm sorry, there will be no Paleolithic uh discussions. There'll be no discussions of uh division of labor uh early in humans.
+
+[8:41] There'll be no dis uh discussions of uh tuber consumption in Paleolithic Africa. It just won't happen right now. Till May. Till May. Until May.
+
+[8:50] Alright. Kevin writes in, uh, supporting you, actually, Nastasia. I know. I know, me, I know. But you weren't thinking of these freaking things.
+
+[9:00] You never had one of these things. The shrimp things you saw. Well, whatever. Let me read the thing. Oh, before people get all pretzeled up.
+
+[9:05] I have a comment and a couple of questions. Uh regarding the use of when you see RE, do you say regarding or do you say RE? I say regarding. Yeah. I'm gonna start saying regarding.
+
+[9:16] That's a lot better than saying RE. Yeah. Can we uh just ca there's a girl dressed in some kind of ancient garb out there? You see her? I see someone in a red jacket.
+
+[9:26] Her back is to us and she's putting a headpiece on. Now watch the front. Are you making why are you making fun of someone's clothes? It's so crazy. Do you want to take a collar before you get to this?
+
+[9:35] Uh yeah, okay. She's not wearing ancient. She's got a Xena Warrior Princess outfit on, but it's not ancient. It's Xena is not ancient. That's New Zealand modern.
+
+[9:44] Okay, yeah. Uh it's she's through the pipe. All right, uh, yeah, call is the caller there? Call her. You on the air?
+
+[9:50] Are you? Hello. Hello. I'm here. Hello.
+
+[9:53] It's Stephen from Indianapolis. How are you doing? All right, how you doing? Doing great. Um, I had a question.
+
+[9:59] Uh you brought up uh I think like two or three weeks ago about the Lohie bread method. Yep. Um we're gonna talk about it again later. Go ahead. What were you saying?
+
+[10:10] Sorry. Oh no, and and uh I I I think we might have to address it again later, but let's just hit it now. Let's just do it now. Go. Okay.
+
+[10:16] Well, my question was um, so when you're looking at the the gluten development and the lahy bread method, I actually have like two breads going in my closet right now over 18 hours, and it's supposed to align and mature the gluten. Uh and I know that like when you're making and I I I try and consider like what you're doing with gluten in the way of like when you're making stretched noodles, you're aligning up the gluten, right? How d how does the gluten mature in each situation? How is it different? Okay, well, you know, one of the the theories, right?
+
+[10:45] The theory of operation here on the on the no-need and on a lot of stuff is that actually a lot of what you're doing when you're developing a dough simply isn't necessarily um the aligning per se, but the actual hydration of the gluten. I remember you're going way back. I haven't actually thoroughly researched this subject in a long, long time. But that a lot of the strength of gluten is coming from uh uh strength of the gluten network, isn't coming from uh the aligning, but rather the hydration and then the um bonding of the uh of the gluten network, right? And so that if if you just let it sit there, and this is why, you know, also I mean most of these uh most of these breads are fairly high hydration, right?
+
+[11:31] Like what's the hydration ratio on your on your what do you got? Um so it's uh 400 grams of flour, 300 grams of water, so 75%? Yeah, yes, that's fairly high hydration, right? I mean, by the way, for those of you that don't bake bread out there, uh hydration in in bread language, and in fact I use this for like a lot of stuff whenever I'm dealing with flours, is uh baker's percentage. So it's liquid expressed as a percentage of the flour that you put in.
+
+[11:57] Um it's just over it's just over the flour. I mean, because most of the time when you're making bread, the rest of this stuff is so minimal anyway, so you're not counting like yeast and salt or any other adjuncts you're adding. But anyway, um so they're fairly high hydration, right? And just by letting them sit around for a long time, the uh gluten uh hydrates over over hours and uh forms a network. And then usually, right?
+
+[12:22] Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but even in like the most simple one, the you have uh uh like an an over, over, over, overstep inside of the inside of the cat uh whatever you're gonna do to give it structure, right? Right, right, yes. Right. And so I think that is where like a lot of that stretching is super important, is forming the internal structure of the bread. And frankly, that's where like a lot of people uh kind of fall short with the with the no need, and where McGee, if you go back and read Harold McGee's um articles on it, or article on it in the New York Times, I think his main his main point is the bread is delicious, however, it's it's not necessarily easy using that technique to get a wide variety of internal structures on the bread, right?
+
+[13:10] Because it's fairly high hydration and there's not a lot of work. Whereas if you look at a lot of classic uh classic bread um a lot of classic breads, there's two things that are going on in the bread. There uh well m millions of things going on in the bread, but I mean in other words, there's there's the recipe itself, right, and then there's how it's manipulated. And only part of that uh manipulation, and I would say from a functional standpoint, the least important part of that manipulation is how the bread is needed, right? It's getting it to a certain point of development in terms of its gluten structure extremely important, right?
+
+[13:46] But then once you get past that, uh then like different forming uh techniques take on uh their relative importance to give us the different shapes, the different uh outside crust textures, what the burst looks like when it's slashed, etc. etc. et cetera. Uh and so most of the criticisms I've heard of these relatively high hydration, uh, relatively unworked bread is frankly their lack of internal structure. Okay.
+
+[14:13] So so when you're looking at like the difference in structure between like uh like a pulled noodle, which I've actually attempted and it ended up miserably. Yeah. Uh whose recipe did you use? What was that? Were you using the Chef Tom recipe?
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+[14:27] Uh yeah, yeah, I was. Okay. Um and uh and I tried to, and I even did it like like slapping it on the table like they do in the you know, just to try and relax the gluten. But I I know that that's linearizing the gluten. When you're making bread, it's actually like the the kneading is is really important in the structure of the bread because of the way that you're organizing the gluten after the proof.
+
+[14:47] Well, yeah, here's a couple things on uh on on the noodle recipe. My mental understanding of what's going on, watching people make it, right, is you have actually an extremely slack dough. There's almost no elasticity to that thing. Right? So in my mind, you're dealing with a situation where the gluten has been kind of beat literally beaten into submission, right?
+
+[15:12] So the structure of the dough is linearized, but the actual gluten has been put into some sort of compromised form, right? Clearly, because if you take uh uh a well-developed dough, right, and you and you, you know, uh that you've kneaded a lot and you push into it, the sub it has some elasticity. It comes back, you stretch it, it stretches back. That's why, you know, um that's why it does that. You can stretch it out thin because it's elastic, but if you just take a big hunk of dough and go should bring, it has some it has some kind of pull to it.
+
+[15:45] That's what the gluten, you know what I'm saying? And so uh it's definitely an overdeveloped dough, right? Now then then now then the c but on the other hand, then why do they need to add uh why do they add a base to it, right? So base is strengthening the gluten. I don't know whether that's making it for quicker overdevelopment.
+
+[16:03] I really don't understand it, but I've felt the dough that you've made and it feels dead in your hands, right? So pulled noodle dough in your hands, and I'm sure you felt it too when you when you did it, it feels weird and dead. You know what I'm saying? Because it doesn't have that kind of life that like an elastic kind of gluten-y or like a even like a like a like a pizza dough or something like that would have. Um so frankly, I've never had good luck with that recipe either.
+
+[16:30] Uh I th uh my feeling is is that pulled noodles is one of those things that uh once you get it right once or twice, you're gonna get it right forever. You know what I'm saying? But it's a lot about uh the hydration and getting the texture uh exactly exactly right. Uh because you know the people I see doing it down, you know, the block from where I live, you know, I look at them and I don't, you know, think of them as being like some sort of i you know enlightened Buddha. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:59] They're not like some sort of being from on high that is given the knowledge of how to make noodles. I think you know, they probably just hung out with someone who knew how to do it, and then like so even Chef Tom, who uh I don't know what he's doing now, but he was or maybe still is teaching at the at the cooking school that the French culinary owns out in San Jose. Um I bet you even if you hung out with him for a day, you could probably get it right. You know what I mean? It's all a question of just getting there's some there's something to it to the feel of it that if you just get it right, it's gonna go.
+
+[17:28] But my feeling about it has always been that it's an overdeveloped dough, and so I wouldn't necessarily in other words, if you were to take that dough and you were to uh uh you know somehow add yeast to it after you did that to it, I don't think it would make great bread. Right, right, right. Okay, and and uh I guess uh one more point and sorry, sorry for the multiple questions, but one more point to it is the difference between the the stretch dough and ramen, right? They both have base in them. Right.
+
+[17:57] But is there such a thing as so is it is it a mechanical denaturation of the gluten? I'm a chemist, so I know it from like a chemical standpoint and the temperature and a thermal standpoint, but not like uh like is there such thing as mechanical denaturation of gluten? Well, I mean, look, I I from an actual um chemical standpoint, I don't know. I do know that if you look at the pharynographs of um so they would hook up uh you know um measurement devices to mixers basically and measure how much energy was being put into a mixer over time uh in dough development. It's called a pharynograph.
+
+[18:31] And I think it is, I mean I haven't looked at them in years, but um you look at it and there's definitely a peak force that it takes to mix it and a breakdown stage. Um so what that yeah, what that would lead me to believe is that there's some sort of peak development after which there's destruction of that network, whether or not it recovers again. Anecdotally, people say it does not, right? And there and there are other there are other doughs that are that are based on the destruction of the dough structure, the most famous in the US being beaten biscuits, right? So where where where you'll take uh uh a dough and you'll just beat the beat the ever loving snot out of it with a with a rolling pin.
+
+[19:15] I went through a uh a period years ago where I was trying to make that dough via repeated lamination instead of actual physical violence, and I was never able to get the exact texture uh through repeated lamination that I was able to get through the uh just uh immense physical violence of beating with large sticks. Okay. Interesting. All right, thank you, Dave. I appreciate it.
+
+[19:39] Hey, no problem. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information, and digital coupons, or visit Whole Foodsmarket.com to find a store closest to you. Have you listened to A Taste of the Past?
+
+[20:05] It's a show devoted to connecting our current food world with its storied past. Host and culinary historian Linda Palacio welcomes chefs, scientists, authors, scholars, and revolutionaries into the studio to discuss food culture and history from around the globe. Have you seen the culture of food change over the past 25, 30 years? It's been incredible. Linda covers content ranging from the history of black chefs in the White House to behavioral psychology and the evolution of Italian food in America.
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+[20:35] You can listen to a taste of the past anytime on Heritage Radio Network.org or on iTunes and Stitcher. Today's program was brought to you by the 2016 Food and Enterprise Summit, presented by Slow Money NYC. Want to learn how to finance a better food system? Are you ready to showcase your food business or product in front of New York's top players in the food industry? Join like minded entrepreneurs and investors at the 2016 Food and Enterprise Summit in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[21:04] Tickets available at food and enterprise dot com. Save twenty percent when you enter special discount code Friends20 for Heritage Radio Network listeners. And so b and and on that subject, you know, someone was saying that. Do you have another call? Oh, I have another call.
+
+[21:14] Yeah, we do. But do you want to get to the thing, the shrimp thing first? Oh well, well, no, no, we'll go, yeah. Caller you're on the air. Hi, Dave.
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+[21:25] It's uh David from California here. How are you doing? Hey, good. Um, I'm gonna be uh designing uh well, I'm designing a a house uh uh for for me and my family. But I was wondering if you had some tips about kitchen design.
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+[21:40] Um maybe just uh whatever comes to your mind, although keep in mind that I'm probably gonna be in an all electric situation, so no gas. Okay. Uh are you like what what area of California and what kind of neighborhood is it? Uh well, I'm actually up in the mountains. Uh, and so we're at 6,000 foot altitude.
+
+[22:03] Um, and it's it it can be cold. Oh, nice. You're in the land of sugar pine cones, huh? Beautiful. I love it over there.
+
+[22:12] Is that are you in the Sierra somewhere or somewhere some other mountains in California? So um, kind of sort of near Big Bear uh in Southern California if you know where that is. Yeah, southern. I only know like yeah. All right.
+
+[22:24] What do you Stas? You know that stuff? Stas is like, yeah, I'm from down near there. Okay. So here's what I would say.
+
+[22:30] I would say there are some things uh I mean, go induction. If you're gonna go electric, go induction, period. You know what I'm saying? And then get uh, you know, your range is gonna be fine induction. How big's your family?
+
+[22:41] Uh just my wife and uh a baby for for now. Well, congratulations on the baby. And are you gonna try to in integrate indoor and outdoor cooking? I'm sorry? Are you gonna do have like an indoor-outdoor situation?
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+[22:56] Are you gonna try to have some of your cooking take place outdoors? Yeah, I mean, I I have a barbecue and a smoker, um, although uh that you know, that's not the bulk of what I do. So, what's the bulk of what you do? What do you like to cook? Um, I'm kind of uh uh, you know, uh a steak and potatoes kind of guy.
+
+[23:20] Um, although uh I am a deep fry maniac like you are. So I like I I'm gonna say this up front. Outside the house, like uh like I like having access from the kitchen to an outdoor place where the cooking is. So if you're ever gonna do cooking outside, like uh whether it be grilling or the stuff I'm about to talk about, um you want to have very fluid and easy access between your main kitchen and outside. And you want that outside cooking area to have a cover on it, right?
+
+[23:51] So you either want to build a separate cover for it or you want to have it close to the house where there's an eve that extends over it such that you can work. That's what I have. And you're gonna want to put a deep fryer out there. You're gonna want an outdoor deep fryer. I would run that sucker off of propane, which you can get so you don't have to worry about plumbing gas to the house.
+
+[24:07] And since you're not gonna use it every day, you can run it off of 20 uh pound things and it's not gonna uh bankrupt you. I'm just gonna make that suggestion right now. And you can and you know, take it for what it is, but like my my situation like that works great because I have outside I have the tandoor, the fryer, and like an outdoor um prep station where I can work that's all protected from the rain. Uh and I love that it's right next to where my kitchen is. Now it's not perfect because it wasn't designed, but it's pretty good for moving indoor and outdoor, getting large amounts of food in and out properly because sometimes we'll be cooking outside and eating inside and vice versa and all that other stuff.
+
+[24:43] Inside, I would definitely go I would 100% go induction. The main thing I would like worry about is I don't know how you know your relationship with your spouse is or what they like, but the fight usually is between between visible cooks and the non-cooks is between visible uh exposed storage of things and closed in. I'm a huge advocate for trying to have as much um non-enclosed storage as is humanly possible and throwing away as many non-matching um things as as is humanly possible. And this usually comes at odds because people think it's uh it's ugly. Also, if you don't cook a lot, exposed storage gets dusty.
+
+[25:26] But if you do cook a lot, then you do what I do, which is you I have like four sizes of bowl, and I only have those four sizes of stainless steel bowl, and they stack, and you're always pulling the one on top, so it never gets dusty. You know what I'm saying? You have to dust the shelves and stuff, but they the the things themselves never get dusty. So I'm a huge uh advocate of that. Here's another one.
+
+[25:46] Build a s uh build a uh speed rack, you know not a bar speed rack, but a uh like one of those cooling racks that uh that tray uh tray rack speed rack that you can put uh sheet trays into. Build one of those if you ever like entertaining, build one of those into your kitchen. Uh I have one that's on casters and it can roll in and out, and I have one in you know in my apartment that doesn't. And you can just you know how when you're cooking, you have like a bunch of food, and you can't get that food out of the way to cook the next round of food if you're doing like a party or something like this. Well, if you have one of those rack trays, you can just you can just sheet up entirely huge amounts of stuff and throw it into the sheet rack while you're working on the next thing, or like if you're like me and let's say you make Christmas cookies.
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+[26:32] I mean, I don't know what you do, but let's say you're like me and you make Christmas cookies. You want to make a whole bunch of Christmas cookies. Normally these things would be spread all over your house, so it would be a freaking nightmare while you're making them. But if you have one of these speed rack things, you can just start throwing uh the sheet trays into it, tray after tray after tray after tray. So I would make sure that A, your oven can handle a full-size sheet tray because it's just so versatile.
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+[26:53] If you're ever going to do entertaining, I would uh electric. I would then uh I would uh if if I were you, I would use I would go into some place, whatever oven you're gonna get, I will go in and use it a couple times. Like I hate, hate a lot of the um control functions on modern electric ovens. Like, for instance, like uh I have an electric uh one of my ovens is an electric oven, right? You know what I use it for?
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+[27:19] You know what I use it for 80% of the time? Warming. Warming. 80% of the time, it's a warming oven. So like I'll be cooking a bunch of stuff in my tandoor or on the grill, or I'll I'll have like a whole bunch of pancakes that I'm making on the griddle, right?
+
+[27:32] And then I want to keep them warm. But every time that I uh every time that I want to uh use the oven to keep it warm, it takes me 35 to 45 seconds to turn it on and turn the temperature down because they you know they assume that when you press go on your oven, you want it at 350. And so to make it say 170, you have to sit there forever with your finger on a button. Hate. Hate.
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+[27:55] So I would look into things like that. Actually, uh, if you can believe it, Dave, I have a CVAP. Ah, yeah. Uh see, you're so you know, you didn't tell me this. Now you go entirely different.
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+[28:07] So if I were you, here's something like it depends on how sustainable you want to be, right? One of my dreams, and no one has ever done it. In fact, although it's uh Neil uh not Neil Armstrong, Louie Armstrong, the musician, right, had a had a uh uh what's it called? A uh dishwasher? No, dishwasher.
+
+[28:23] Commercial dishwashers, right? Why doesn't anyone make a commercial dishwasher that has a residential mode that says, hey, look it. I have an hour to sit here while you wash dishes, right? And you can be eco-friendly, blah, blah, and quiet, all Bosch like. You know what I'm saying?
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+[28:42] And then, but it's like, I have a party, there's 30 people here, cook the dishes, clean them, clean them, clean them, clean them. And then you press it and they're clean in a minute. A minute and a half, like a commercial dishwasher. And for that minute and a half during the party, yeah, tremendous energy waste, but it's only for that short amount of time. Why doesn't no one build that?
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+[28:58] Why does nobody build that, David? Wow. Yeah. So you know what people do? You know what people with money have to freaking do?
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+[29:06] Buy two dishwashers. What a freaking waste of kitchen space. Two dishwashers is. But it's the only way to get around it if you're a party master because you you you're gonna wind up like your kitchen's gonna fill with dishes. Who?
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+[29:20] I've seen them. Who? I've seen them who really rich people. Yeah, but they're not good for normal use because they're entirely so you have to have a commercial and then you have to have a for glasses. But you have to have a commercial and then you have to have a re regular residential unless you hate the environment.
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+[29:36] Do you hate the environment, Nastasia? I don't. Well, you know, he lives in California, he's not allowed to hate the environment. He lives in the mountains. He's not allowed, it's like you physically you're not allowed.
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+[29:43] You'd you'd be looked down upon by everyone in your community. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's true. Yeah, especially in the mountains.
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+[29:49] It's a why would you live in the mountains if you didn't like the environment? Yeah, but but residential dishwashers run for an hour. Yes, but they doesn't waste much time. No, no, no. They're so much more efficient.
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+[30:01] They're so much more efficient than it it it seems like it's a waste, but they're very eco-friendly compared with uh and they use a lot less power. So that's the other question. You're gonna get 220 volts. Uh thank you, Elliot Papanot. Uh Jonathan Sawyer, the chef at Gra um, what's the restaurant?
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+[30:16] Uh the Cleveland chef. Yeah. Yeah, he's got one. At his house. At his house?
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+[30:20] Does he love it? Does he love, love, love it? I would assume so. You know what? It's so freaking easy because someone like Hobart also like can make stuff for home.
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+[30:30] Just like just like team up with a home person, charge three times as much. How many gallons, how much more energy? Oh my god, Nastasia. Oh, I mean, it's like a lot more. They're completely not efficient.
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+[30:44] First of all, they're they're bad for your dishes because they're running super hot, and they they you have like a little boiler that heats that water up to tremendous temperatures. They're just butt, they're freaking monsters, huh? Right? And the other thing about them that's nice is that if you have parties a lot, like I have like here's what's depressing, right? Commercial glass racks are awesome because you have glasses that you're only gonna use at parties, right?
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+[31:09] So you put them in commercial glass racks, and they're so close to fitting in a regular residential freaking uh dishwasher. So if you just like modify them a little bit, you could store all of your party glasses in racks. You could live like a normal human 90% of the time, and then rack and roll when you're putting in having parties, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, well, whatever. That's life, big city.
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+[31:31] Yeah. We do have another caller. All right, caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hello?
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+[31:37] Hello. Hey, uh, it's Josh from Virginia. Um I had a quick question on if you had any advice to control bubble size when uh carbonation uh carbonating cocktails out of a CO2 tank. We're running a CO2 tank through with the hose and the uh you know screw on cap. Okay.
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+[31:55] Uh uh Okay, how are the bubbles now and which way do you want them to go? Uh they're really, really small, like Perry esque, uh and I would like to get them up larger towards uh like Topo Chico size, ideally. So like a kind of mix of medium and large. Okay. So for a given liquid, right?
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+[32:17] For a given liquid, bubble size is going to be determined uh a hundred percent by the amount of CO2 that is uh in the uh beverage and the temperature that it's uh at. In other words, like how fast the CO2 is leaving is going to determine the bubble size. So uh one thing to do is to get your your CO2 pre your CO2 dissolved, not necessarily the pressure you're carbonating at, but getting the dissolved CO2 level to be much higher. So ways to do that are to make it colder, right? Or to make it clearer, or to uh carbonate it um multiple times or more times than you're doing now with a lot of foaming off in between to make sure that you're getting the maximum amount of CO2 in there.
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+[33:04] So if you have your thing and you let it sit for like 15, 20 minutes, if you reattach your c your CO2 tank and start shaking it again, and you hear the gas going from the tank into your beverage, it means it you haven't fully added as much CO2 to that beverage as is possible. Okay. So within a given beverage, the bubble size will be determined by those things. And for instance, uh for note on temperature, just think about when you crack open a cold seltzer versus when you crack open a warm seltzer and the bubble size difference there, just because the bubbles are leaving at a tremendously faster rate. And so the bubbles get bigger as they're traveling from the bottom to the top of the glass.
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+[33:41] Really, once a bubble forms, its size is pretty much dependent on the characteristics of the liquid, which we're gonna talk about in a minute, and how fast CO2 is leaving the liquid and going into that bubble in the short time it has from when it forms near the bottom of your glass to when it bursts on the surface of the liquid, right? Okay. So now we've dealt with those kind of physical factors. Then there's a liquid itself. So uh things like salt, uh, like the l larger the the dissolved mineral content uh in it, the the kind of smaller the bubble perception is gonna be and the size of the bubble's gonna be.
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+[34:16] That's why like a lot of fairly carbonated, like very mineralized waters don't appear to be that bubbly, even though there actually is a lot of CO2 in them. Uh I'm talking to you, German waters. And um the you know, other thing it's gonna it's like uh alcohol content. So if you want larger bubbles, you lower the alcohol content um or anything like that that affects the uh surface activity of the liquid, right? So um, you know, uh increasing the alcohol content will decrease the surface uh tension and increase the viscosity, and so your bubbles will start getting larger and foamier, right?
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+[34:52] So at least that's my it's been a while since I've I think that's right. But anyway, so like there's a liquid itself, but I would focus on physical things first. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. All right.
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+[35:01] Let us know how it works. Yeah, we'll do things. Alright, cool. Um. All right.
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+[35:07] So let's get uh see what am I saying? So what were you talking about? Tortas. This isn't even a question, it's a it's it's a comment. Uh torta defin okay.
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+[35:16] Regarding the use of torta to mean sandwich in Mexican cuisine, and just so you know, this is from Kevin. And he's uh defending Nastasia the hammer Lopez. Kevin, defending Stas. Like she needs someone to defend her, please. Please.
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+[35:28] Torta definitely means sandwich. How do you oh I'm not no tangents, no tangents. Torta definitely means sandwich. However, I've also seen it used commonly in Mexico to mean something like a fritter slash patty. Right, which is not what you said, Nastasia.
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+[35:42] My sister had this like folded fried, yeah, thing. Fold it now. Hey, whoa, family show. They'll learn soon enough. Oh, geez.
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+[35:52] They'll learn. Let them learn. It's like, you know, you know, your kids stubs uh stubs their toe, they're like, oh, it hurts. They're like, get used to it, get used to pain. My mom makes uh tortas de camarone, which is basically a whipped egg and ground shrimp mix that's uh pan fried.
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+[36:08] By the way, I've had that uh uh j uh just thought I'd share since I never really thought about how a torta refers to both until your sandwich conversation this week. I actually like those things. You ever had those? I think they're made with dried shrimp, they have that dried shrimp taste, but they're good. It's like they're like they're like little patties, and I think they're served like in like a I think it's a tomato y sauce.
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+[36:28] I've had them. Um I've had at least a style that comes from Guerrero. They're good. I like them, but they're not a sandwich. They're not even an open face sandwich, which as we all know is not a sandwich.
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+[36:39] Uh here's the question. Uh my friend and I were talking about people cooking ethnic food of a culture that is not their own. There was a recent NPR uh article on this uh where where Rick Bayless was featured. Uh when my friend asked me if there's a certain form/slash presentation that differentiates high-end food from plebeian food. What are your thoughts on this?
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+[36:58] Um, I don't know. What are your thoughts on that, Steph? I don't know. I have some thoughts on it, if you if you don't have thoughts. Uh I mean I thought maybe.
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+[37:08] What was the what's the issue here? So the question is is like when you're taking uh another ethnic food, right? Why is it this is what I get out of it. Why is it that's that m a lot of times it can be seen as low end, or why is it difficult sometimes to go high end with certain ethnic cuisines? And furthermore, um why, you know, why is it that some presentations are seen as highbrow and some are seen as lowbrow when you're going and I'll give you an example.
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+[37:34] Like like uh many years ago I went to, and even recently, you go to like uh uh a French restaurant and they do something that is uh like they put five spice powder on it, right? They go they go Asian in that sort of very, very kind of pedestrian sense of just putting five spice powder on it. Like all of a sudden, like for a lot of taste for a lot of um consumers, it's gonna get knocked a couple pegs down in refinement in their minds just because they associate certain flavor uh palettes and they associate certain cooking techniques and presentations with less expensive uh cuisines, right? And we've had this discussion a little bit regarding uh Mexican cuisine when I when we got back from Mexico and we were I was upset that there's no way you're ever gonna have those flor de calabasa freaking quesadillas like you have in Mexico because no stupid idiot Americ I love Americans, but no none of us are smart enough to pay what it would cost to have those kind of whereas Italian is allowed to be simple, rustic, and refined at the same time. Not to the level of like French, right?
+
+[38:39] But everyone knows that you're paying for these fancy ingredients, and so you'll pay a lot for something simple if it's got an Italian label on it. He's like everybody wants cheap, cheap, cheap tacos. Cheap, like where are the best cheap tacos? That's the question everybody asks, right? Right.
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+[38:54] Right. And nobody, in other words, like it's very difficult to get someone to spend uh, you know, a lot of money on something that they don't feel is that different from that's the thing. It's like perceived difference and perceived value. So the question is, how do you get someone so at Empeyon Casino, for instance, he's not doing, you know, really it's not really Mexican food. He's inspired by that stuff, but it's like you can see the presentation work on the plate and the and the kind of work, and so it gets to jump into a a high, you know, into a high level kind of a situation.
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+[39:27] So or if you go like Nastasi and I were at Cosme last week, Enrique Olivera's restaurant here in New York, and you know and so there I think they successfully are are jumping to a high-end presentation, but it's because it's a bunch of stuff that no one here has ever tasted before. Right? Ingredients that they've never tasted before. So some of the stuff, you know, makes sense, like tortillas, right? But you know, uh, but a lot of the stuff is is is um you know not the flavor palette that people are used to, and so they're they they can take the jump out of their mind and you know, not like Americans, and I maybe people in the world aren't necessarily smart enough to understand a very, very well executed plate of beans being worth a lot of money, right?
+
+[40:09] I mean, uh the exception is risotto. For some reason, people realize that risotto is difficult, and so you can spend a lot of money on like a risotto alla Milanese be and and not feel ripped off, right, Stuzz? Mm-hmm. Um I don't know. Like another way, like if you look at uh, you know, Danny Bowen at Mission Chinese, right?
+
+[40:28] So like uh Chinese food other than banquet cuisine uh where you're spending money just on really really expensive materials like sharks fin and you know not that you should buy I mean obviously you shouldn't but or or or bird's nest or sea cucumber or any one of these other things like um you know it's hard to get people to spend a lot of money on that in the US if it tastes traditional. I mean I think that was the genius of someone like uh Danny at Mission Chinese was having it be not that it's that expensive compared to you know what we think of as high high end but it it's like uh having something being so not what you're used to tasting in that category so different from what you would get at the standard restaurants that it gets to punch through that barrier and go on the other side. Side note tangent I just bought a whole bunch of the red uh Sichuan peppercorns got them at home yeah that kind of moppo numbing thing get at Mission you like those he he uses them at the absolute limit of what I find enjoyable. Yeah exactly it's right at the limit. Right at that limit.
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+[41:28] And in fact it's funny it's weird with uh it's weird with certain wines it's weird with a lot of wines uh that that stuff but uh one more note on Mission Chinese before we get kicked off the air and I'm missing all like all the other questions I have to answer. But uh something I didn't understand you know they have a wood fired oven at Mission Chinese did you know that yeah and so like they use it for a bunch of presentations but because they had the wood fired oven they kinda they make these pizzas there right these kind of like Neapolitan style kind of pizzas and then they make one with pepperoni on it. And for a while after I know they had I was like why do they why do they do that right? Why do they have those pizzas there? Because it's not in keeping with the rest of the menu.
+
+[42:01] It doesn't really make sense from a mental point on the menu, right? And then I went there with my kids, and I was like, this is the smartest freaking thing that anyone has ever done at a restaurant. And I think restaurant owners take note of like it's hard to step outside of yourself, right? And what you do for a living. But I think this is the kind of like where I mean, not that you know, Nastasia give me the face because not like Danny needs anyone or the those crew need anyone blowing blowing extra sunshine in their nether regions, but I think they're really good at what they do.
+
+[42:32] You know what I mean? And um, like I never would have thought to do that there because it in a way, like you don't know that you have permission in quotes to make that kind of food at that restaurant. But then now I can shuffle uh shove as much uh Mapu tofu into my mouth as I care to uh shove in my mouth, and my kids are sitting there eating pizza and they're happy as clams, right? And so then they want to go back. Makes life so much more enjoyable if you have kids.
+
+[42:58] You know what I'm saying? Cooking issues. That's it. All right, thanks. See you next week.
+
+[43:11] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[43:36] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Dave Arnold, host of Cooking Issues. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:24] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Itries coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Well, not really anywhere near noon this time, huh? No. Like 1219 from reverse Pichuita in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:37] Pushing noonish today, huh? Pushing noonish. Yeah, yeah, noon-ish. You know what? I choose the same seat every week, Jack, and yet I hate the microphone at my seat because it will not point up.
+
+[0:48] It's gotta go Lemmy. You gotta go full Lemmy on this damn microphone. Point down. Go Motorhead for all you motorhead fans. Joined as usual, well, obviously with Jack since we're talking.
+
+[0:57] Hey Jack. Hey. How's it going? Pretty good. Yeah.
+
+[1:00] And of course, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Good. Good. Mm-hmm. You exist?
+
+[1:05] Good. Uh special uh guest in the studio today. We have Angela Garbitz. How do you actually pronounce it? Garbets?
+
+[1:13] Garbette? You said it right. Yeah. Yeah. One of my all-close to the mic there, Angela.
+
+[1:18] Garbits. One of my all-time favorite uh interns ever at the French Culinary back. By the way, do you call it the International Culinary Center? I d no. It's French Culinary.
+
+[1:27] Yep. Yeah. French culinary. She uh is from the great hails from the great state of Nebraska. By the way, I don't know if any any I don't know if we have any listeners in Nebraska.
+
+[1:39] Uh but Jack, do you know what Nebraska's Nebraska's motto is? I don't. Well, do you know let me put it this way? They have a new weak motto. What is a new weak motto, Angela?
+
+[1:50] Isn't it Nebraska nice? That's the worst motto in the world. It's the worst. Nebraska, man, it's nice. Like, what do you say, Scott?
+
+[1:57] What do you say about someone when you're like, uh, hey, d how how'd your date go, Nastasia? He was a nice guy. It was nice. That means, yeah, he wasn't like, like, you didn't want to stab his eyes out, maybe, but you did want to stab yours because you were so bored. Nebraska.
+
+[2:14] Nice. Whereas you know what it used to be, Jack. I see something here. I looked it up. Let's see if you have the same thing.
+
+[2:19] Possibilities endless. Oh. Endless. Endless. Interesting, because the internet tells me the Nebraska motto is equality before the law.
+
+[2:29] Whoa. Yeah. Yeah? Do you feel that everyone's equal before the law in Nebraska? I think there's a lot of recent legislation that would say that it's not.
+
+[2:38] Like what do you got going on in Nebraska? A lot of LGBT stuff that's not good. Really? Yeah. Are they are they they're going that that way?
+
+[2:49] Speaking of baking cakes, uh, we could talk about this in a minute, but they're not one of the anti-cake baking for gay marriage uh states, are they? I hope not, because I'm going to jail. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, they don't say you can't.
+
+[2:59] They just say that you don't have to. Okay, I have no idea. You're allowed to refuse cake baking services for like s anyone who you see theoretically, right? If you can refuse to bake a cake for uh like if it for a gay way, couldn't you just be like, you know what? I don't like the cut of that dude's jib.
+
+[3:15] No cake for you. Actually, that would kind of be like that, I mean, like if someone was just a jerk in general and just refused randomly cake service to people, then it would become an internet phenomenon. It wouldn't be a that person would make billions of do not billions, but they would make a lot of money. Like it'd be really bad. This would be a bad idea, but but if they literally just randomly flipped a coin when you showed up.
+
+[3:33] Right. And we're like, no cake for you. Probably not for you. Not for you. Sorry.
+
+[3:37] Yeah. Yeah, no cake. So let's talk about cakes. So, Angela, you have opened a uh a a bakery. Almost a year ago, yeah.
+
+[3:44] Yeah. And so why don't you tell us about your baker? It's called Goldenrod Pastries. We do a lot of alternative diet stuff, and it's just a really kind of happy place to be. We do try to be very inclusive with what we serve to people and just try to make it a really happy, fun place.
+
+[3:58] So it describes me what an alternative diet is. Gluten-free, dairy-free, vegan, paleo. Oh my god. How do you do all of those things? Do you all at the same time or do you have different things to do?
+
+[4:07] Everything you do is all of those things? No, it's like you know, we uh probably 90% of what we do is gluten free. Yeah. And then you didn't you didn't never develop the gluten allergy yourself, did you not one of those you still eat gluten at home? I usually eat gluten.
+
+[4:20] Yeah, gluten is gluten, good stuff. It's so good. I uh don't eat dairy. Don't eat dairy? For the most part.
+
+[4:26] But I'm on vacation now, so I'm in international waters. Let me tell you something. Uh this is a little known fact, but Angela's dad like runs the Nebraska beef like board, like uh the publicity wing or the whole board? It's just the Department of Ag. Department of Agriculture.
+
+[4:42] But he's big on Nebraska beef. Nebraska beef, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We have good beef. So do you are that's the paleo section.
+
+[4:48] So do you make muffins entirely out of beef? It's just beef muffins. Like take it, take make a meatloaf and make a beef muffin. It's perfect. Yeah, that might be the only cupcake I would like.
+
+[4:58] We're across the street from uh Seventh day Adventist College. They would not eat the beef muffin. Oh, so you're catering to your neighborhood. I mean, everybody wants different diet stuff right now. Yeah.
+
+[5:09] Seventh day advanced college? Yeah. Huh. Are they good customers? They're great.
+
+[5:14] They're really nice people. Yeah. But they try to eat really healthy. Oh, yeah. Well, but why?
+
+[5:19] In other words, like if you believe if you believe that it's all about to be over, why eat healthy? I'm gonna tell you something. Stas, let's say you knew, you know what? You only got like a couple of weeks left. It's about to be over.
+
+[5:30] Are you gonna be cutting down on your uh saturated fats? No. No. You're gonna be taking like, you know, I'm gonna dive into like a swimming pool of fried chicken. Or something like this.
+
+[5:39] Easily. Yeah. Fried chicken all the time. Just munch through that stuff. I used to think it would be good to jump into a swimming pool full of seltzer, but then I think it might hurt your moist parts.
+
+[5:47] All of your moist parts. I think it would. Yeah. Yeah. Too prickly.
+
+[5:51] Yeah, but have you ever on a hot summer day been so thirsty that you wish you could just go open your mouth and just have it like seltzer just flow into it? Yep. That sounds great. Yeah, I mean, I can do that at home. Uh you know, too, the first approximation with my seltzer rigs.
+
+[6:04] Anyway. Maybe you need two pools. One with saltur, one with fried chicken. Oh my god. But they'll be so gross.
+
+[6:09] Like when you hit the fried chicken, smack, and then after the first like ten bites, like what do you got an earth your worm your way through fried chicken? That's just the nastiest. You just belly flop. You belly flop and then try to chew your way through the fried chicken. It's just not a pleasant.
+
+[6:22] I would do it. Yeah? Yeah. What is the food stuff that you could consume the most of in a row? Me?
+
+[6:28] In a row. I'm not saying like the most. I'm saying like would tire of the least. This is a great question. Jack, what do you got for me?
+
+[6:38] The first thing that came to my mind is like popcorn. Yeah, but it's not that much weight. It's not that much weight. You're not actually massing up with that. Right, right, right, right.
+
+[6:46] I once I ate 12 ice cream sandwiches. Wow. Oh yeah. They're delicious. I mean, probably fried chicken.
+
+[6:52] Or beef. Or beef. Bees. Probably. I hear the leaner the beef, the more you can eat.
+
+[6:58] No, it's pasta. I can like if that I could probably just like finish a pound plus in one sitting, you know, if no, if no one stops me. A po wait, a pound of dry freaking pasta? You cook it, you eat it? I could, I think, yeah.
+
+[7:10] I mean, I've I've You win hardcore, man. That's hardcore. I mean, like, you look down at your bowl and be like, should I have another bite? No. It's like, is my boredom level so high that it's actually better for me to take this next bite of pasta than to just sit here and stare at the wall?
+
+[7:26] I'd be like, wow, damn, that's hardcore. Yeah. You know what I mean? Back in the day though, like I don't like lean beef. I like my beef with fat in it unless it's dried.
+
+[7:34] But they used to say when they used to do the buffalo hunts when they were trying to exterminate uh the buffalo out in your neighborhood, actually. They uh uh you know that you can eat a huge quantity of buffalo meat. Huge, huge. Huge. Huge.
+
+[7:49] Endless possibility of endless buffalo meat. Sounds terrible. Well, apparently there's not like a lot of fat, so you don't get sated and it's so high in protein that I guess you you're always kind of just can just eat a little more and you're just like pounding it. So do you actually make beef muffins? Can you make a beef muffin?
+
+[8:05] Probably. How it's a paleo muffin. What's a paleo? They would love it. Really?
+
+[8:10] I don't know. What's a paleo muffin? You like get some like you rip grass out of the ground and like bake it? What do you do with the paleo muffin? Coconut flour, coconut oil, coconut milk.
+
+[8:20] Why is that paleo? Like what makes it paleo? That's a great question. How many paleolithic people were baking muffins out of coconuts? They just had so many coconuts.
+
+[8:28] Well, if you were in those neighborhoods, you can eat almost all coconut. Coconut is a miracle product. I love a coconut. Yeah. I love a coconut.
+
+[8:35] Why would a mu let me ask you a question? I know it's not your diet, but uh do like I need to I need to get more in depth with the with the paleo stuff. 'Cause people are like wildly some people are wildly pro pro paleo, right? But the thing is is there was no one paleolithic diet that anyone can point to. It's all very, very contentious.
+
+[8:53] We'll talk about this more, I guess, when uh Richard Rangham, if he ever comes back on the show. When do you say he's coming, Stas? May. I think it needs a new name, that diet. They should call it it, they just mean like don't use agricultural what what well they're all agricultural products now.
+
+[9:07] Yeah. Uh anyway, from when Rangum comes on, I hope any of the pro paleo people, if we have any listening, will call and and pepper him with questions about the paleo diet because that would be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a bad name for the diet, I think.
+
+[9:18] It's too confusing. Yeah. The diet's fine, but the name is not right. Yeah, what do you think? Do you have a you have an alternative name?
+
+[9:25] No. Fat diet. Fat diet. And so Angela, do you have a do you have the food that you could plow through the most of? I I mean, now all I can think about is fried chicken.
+
+[9:34] Fried? Oh, yeah, you did. You said fried chicken. That's amazing. Dave, what's your answer to this?
+
+[9:38] I think I'm just. I mean, I like ice cream sandwiches a lot. That's the real answer, is ice cream sandwiches. I mean, I like them a lot. And and like the the thing is I'm trying to think like some of my favorite things in the world, like, for instance, like uh bake bacon, poached egg, cheese, English muffin sandwiches.
+
+[9:54] Those are good. Really good, right? I once ate ten of them and I didn't want to eat another one. Oh man. Well, when I made it through the like the 11th, 12th ice cream sandwich, I was like, you know what?
+
+[10:02] If I had another one on my plate, I would eat it. Where did you do this? In college when it's all free. You know, and it's all sitting around. It's not free, it's a sunk cost.
+
+[10:10] I remember, I still remember to this day. Like I had this like pyramid of ice cream sandwiches on my on my plate. I nuked the first one, I figured the rest would temper out as I got you know down things. I like my ice cream sandwiches tempered, even when I was in college, you know. I'm not a freaking Neanderthal.
+
+[10:24] I like a tempered ice cream sandwich. They're not as good when they're hard, it's not as good. Especially with the sh crappy quality ice cream that they have, that texture that's just no good when they're hardened. Anyway. What about peanut butter cookies?
+
+[10:33] That's a thing that you can really work your way through. Really? I think so. You think? I don't know.
+
+[10:37] But anyway, so this guy comes up, walks to me, tries to take an ice cream sandwich off my plate, like I got it for the whole crew. I'm like, hey, hey, there's more back in the freaking kitchen. Go get your own. These are mine. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:49] Yeah. But the tenth, the tenth uh, you know, English muffin uh poached egg, bacon. Not good. Cheat. No, I was like, uh, I'm done.
+
+[10:57] I'm done. You know, I also once ate, do you know what you're familiar with the uh Ben and Jerry's ice cream uh uh can confection called the Vermonster? No. You have to go to the store to get the Vermonster. It's 20 scoops of ice cream, toppings of your choice.
+
+[11:12] Oh god. I once ate one of those by myself. Oh my god. Sounds like a nightmare. I had a very fast metabolism back then.
+
+[11:17] How'd you feel? Great. Yeah. I don't do that stuff anymore. I've got kids, and my wife really doesn't want me to, you know, Jen does not want me to imbue Dax.
+
+[11:29] Booker's not gonna do any of this stuff, but doesn't want me to like uh imbue the uh love of uh this kind of eating feat on Dax. Thinks it would be a mistake. What do you think, Stuzz? Yeah, I can see Dax trying to do that. Yeah, but do you think it's a mistake?
+
+[11:45] Um maybe. I mean you already teach them a lot of other weird crap. Speaking of weird crap, uh Stas, what's your answer to this question? Oh, I don't I I was gonna say popcorn like you. Last night I ate a whole tin of caviar.
+
+[11:57] Oh nanny nanny! That's free. With nothing. I think I can eat that all the time. Really?
+
+[12:06] Mm-hmm. Really? Did you have a hangover from the salt? Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[12:11] Did you what do you eat it on? Crackers? You spooned it in your face? You know what? Sushi, that's what I could just keep eating for forever.
+
+[12:18] Do you know why you think that? Because it just costs so damn much. That's why. You know what I mean? Like, I've had my fill of all you can eat sushi because that stuff is gross.
+
+[12:27] Yeah, that's that's not what I mean. Then you get sick. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you get like a really good omakase. I could usually I I usually feel like, yeah, I'll run it back.
+
+[12:29] I could do that all again, you know. Yeah, I know, but who could afford to ever do it all again? If it were free. Have you ever been in a situation, Stas, where the sushi was unlimited and you had to stop because you weren't just sick of being in there? Stas like stops eating for like other reasons, like, I'm sick of being here, I gotta go now.
+
+[12:49] Although, you know what I mean? Like, I I'm like that actually, like uh, we've had this discussion before on the air, but uh Angela hasn't been here for the butt what are your feelings? As soon as I put the last morsel of food in my mouth, I am done. I want to be out of there. I want to be gone on a restaurant.
+
+[13:04] Whoa. Out. Done. Done. Ozerski wrote something great about that once where he's like, in the future there will just be a chip in my head, and I can immediately leave and not have to sit there and shame, you know, after the last bite.
+
+[13:14] But why is it shame? I've seen Os I've seen Ozerski eat, and it actually it was shameful. He took me to, I swear to God, he took me to I don't normally frequent these establishments, but he took me to a strip club that served Adam Perry Lang was the chef there at the time, so it's real. Get out of here. Yeah, swear to God, it was Penthouse Club.
+
+[13:34] And like, and we're trying to have a serious discussion. Have we ever discussed this on air? We have? Yes. Um, we did a long time ago.
+
+[13:41] We're trying to have a serious you know, uh, Joshua Zersky, of course, died last year, unfortunately. But uh trying to have a serious discussion about the tenderness of freaking steak while he's getting a lap dance. I'm like, what the hell? I like how am I supposed to have a conversation? Was he able to have a conversation?
+
+[13:56] Didn't seem to phase him. Didn't like I'm like, wow, this is uncomfortable. Were you looking at the woman? I call I mean like I I don't know, like you're not supposed I I what am I supposed to do? Like sit I can't it's not you can't have a normal conversation with someone while that's going on.
+
+[14:14] But were you looking at the woman? What do you mean look into it? The woman and the Ozerski were in one unit. She was giving him a lap dance. Were you looking at Ozerski?
+
+[14:22] I was kind of like trying to like talk and look at the steak while I'm talking about the steak. Just have a normal dinner. Just pretend it's not there. Yeah, but then that's rude. But where's the table with the food if they're able to get a lap dance?
+
+[14:33] You have to push the chair back. Oh my goodness. It's like a normal freaking table with like steak, and then all of a sudden a lap dancer comes out. And money exchanges exchanges thongs or whatever happens in those situations. Yeah.
+
+[14:50] It's just a strange combination. I think I want my I mean, I think I would want that, you know, like kind of divided, not like together. You know what I'm saying? Sounds like a tough time to eat a steak. Yeah.
+
+[15:02] Yeah. Anyway. Well Adam Perry Lang, of course. Uh the steaks are delicious. I mean, he's a good cook.
+
+[15:08] Yeah. You know what I mean? Uh anyway. Okay. I have a chat room question if we want to jump right to that.
+
+[15:13] Sure, jump to that. And if you have any live questions, uh call them a two. 718497, 2128. That's 7184972128. What's your chat room question?
+
+[15:20] Yeah, but this one's pretty live. It came in like just now. So from Kyle Alberta. Alright. That's right.
+
+[15:26] With a D. Question. I'm christening my new deep fryer with a big deep fry for everyone at work. Getting requests for candy bars and mot sticks. No.
+
+[15:34] Do the No. Do these need a liquid nitrogen dunk prior to the batter and fry? Wait, what's a Mot stick? A Mot stick? Mozzarella sticks.
+
+[15:41] Oh, Mot oh, Mott. Yeah. Uh okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
+
+[15:45] Candy bars and mozzarella. Let me tell you, let me tell you something. The first time you fire up your deep fat full of all, I don't know what kind of deep fat fryer you have. So it's all a question of what kind of a nightmare situation you can uh you can deal with. But when you deep fry a candy bar, if the coating on that candy bar is not uh it does not stay intact during the frying procedure, it is going to uh you'll have like mostly a case, and then as this liquid on the inside, I guess there's not that much liquid.
+
+[16:11] Most of the stuff like with mozzarella, it will start pumping said product out of the hole into your oil where it will ruin everything. Now, mozzarella sticks, they're fine. I usually fry them from frozen though, right? I think I don't do I don't do a lot of you know what's really good to fry is uh queso de frier. It doesn't melt, but it's not as gooey as a mozzarella stick.
+
+[16:30] You have to eat them right away because they get squeaky. I never did a lot of fried mozzarella. I've done it. The worst fried thing, look, if you're gonna christen your just do freaking fried chicken and donuts. Do fried chicken and donuts.
+
+[16:42] And let me say this cake donuts, even though like, even though if God were to make a donut, it would be a cake donut, you should start with a yeast donut because they're incredibly forgiving compared to a cake donut. But like you make a good yeased donut and like a bunch of fried chicken and French fries, do a good job with the French fries, and everyone thinks you're a fry genius, even if it's the first time you've ever fried in your life. By the way, the easiest thing in the world to fry with your fried chicken, maybe not as impressive for most people, onion rings. Onion rings. I'll tell you why.
+
+[17:13] You can use the same batter for the onion rings that you use for the chicken, and for some reason people don't get pissed off. People aren't like, it's the same battery you're using the same batter on both. They don't get pissed off. You know? So what's your paleo fry batter, Angela?
+
+[17:29] Probably coconuts. Really? Coconut flour, probably. But can you fry? I've never I've never why why not?
+
+[17:35] Didn't they have animals with fat in them? You wouldn't be able to fry like with strict paleo, you couldn't fry with regular oil. You fry with uh rendered fucking rendered lard. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:45] Fry with that. Yeah. I mean call her whenever you're ready. All right, we can get back to the frying in in a second. But yeah, I would freeze the candy bars and make it make sure you double dip and get a good coating on it so they don't bleed out.
+
+[17:57] Dude, if you do something like falafel, make freaking sure that it's not gonna leak apart. Do a small test in oil. I once had an exploding falafel ball situation where I put an entire thing of falafel into my fryer and it disintegrated into the fryer and settled into a cake on the bottom. Bad news. Alright, call, you're on the air.
+
+[18:15] Hello? Hi. Hi. Uh is this Dave Arnold? It is.
+
+[18:20] Wow, Dave Arnold, I'm a huge fan. My name's Mindy. Oh, Mindy. Also one of the best all time interns, and actually had Nastasia's job for a while. And what a great job it was, right?
+
+[18:34] Well, not so great. You don't have it anymore. Not because I wanted you to leave. You're like, I am done with this Dave Arnold dude. I am so Mindy.
+
+[18:44] I am the New Haven of bosses. New Haven. I'm New Haven, yeah. So New Haven is a town where everybody who's in New Haven wants to get out. But as soon as you leave New Haven, you're like, New Haven, not so bad.
+
+[18:56] It wasn't so bad. No, now that I have kids, I see how reasonable you are in comparison. Yeah. Nice. Nice.
+
+[19:04] Nice. So what's up? Are you just calling to call into chat or you got a question for us, Mindy? No, I'm just calling to say hi, because I really there were some great, great sound bites, you know, like I love coconuts, and you know, it's not as good when it's hard. So I didn't even hear that.
+
+[19:19] See, you you have a you have a good ear for these kinds of things. That was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:25] No, and and I had a suggestion. I mean, I can't exercise it, but instead of the crazy diet's like, I don't know, moderation, but I know that's like crazy. Crazy crazy clan I I believe in moderation for other people. I believe it's really good advice. It's just like it exists.
+
+[19:43] It exists. And actually that's the only sound advice really but you know it doesn't seem it doesn't seem to work for me. I you know Yeah I can't do it I've heard I can't do it. I've tried. I like but I'm more of like a when I binge on stuff it's like pure love.
+
+[19:57] Remember when I used to come back and and drink two quarts of blueberries not blended not smoothie. You drank them no no quart container quart container of blueberries the the fruit they just fell into your mouth I'm like I've got to be a little bit you were like a bow constrictor you just like unhinged your jaw and you just sent them straight down without chewing. It was a little it was a little horrifying to watch. I couldn't eat blueberries for like a year. But that's no but good.
+
+[20:21] Hey going back to our other question I once ate a gallon of over a gallon of raspberries not juice the fruit a lot of raspberries. Well this is how you develop allergies Dave what about the cherries you ate like I did it bushels of cherry yeah that's true. The raspberries though I did it for a reason that I know Mindy will respect is that uh I'm cheap. I'm cheap. And I didn't it was a pick your own and I didn't realize how much it was going to cost.
+
+[20:45] I didn't realize how much it was going to cost. What? Oh my God Yeah rather partially I don't know I got it's the Scottish part of me I think that's like I love it. Anyway so like I ate a whole I realized what other people were paying in front of me. So you just oh my God I went back into the I went back into the uh pick your own area and feed baggedback a gallon of the stuff.
+
+[21:04] They had a sin bin. I dropped like, you know, like a couple of dollars into this, not really a couple of pennies, into the sin bin, and then paid for like our couple of quarts that were left. What would Mindy, what would be her ice cream sandwich? Yeah, Mindy, what what could you eat the most of of all times? Well, what was like what have I oh do you remember I ate those mangoes and I developed like a minor allergy when I like mangoes went toxic.
+
+[21:27] Yeah. I love those, I love those champagne mangoes, and I ate something like twelve of them, and then someone gave me that crazy Alfonso mango, and I broke out into like giant hives. My rem my memory was your face inflated like a balloon. No, that's just my face, Dave. Wow.
+
+[21:46] Wow. So I got face like proof and brioche. You know this. That's kind of good if you can get it to like do that and then push on it to see whether it's done. I'm so tender.
+
+[21:55] Tap on it. Tap on it, yeah. See if she how do you do it? How do you do your gluten-free brioche? How do you do that, Angela?
+
+[22:01] I would never. Some things are not some things it just doesn't. So where's the line? Like, where's the line? Yeasted stuff for me.
+
+[22:11] So you you don't you don't do any of these gluten-free yeasted? No. No. So you're like cookies. Cakes.
+
+[22:20] Cakes. Cakes. Cakes. Cakes. Alright, let's uh Mindy, why don't you stay on?
+
+[22:26] We're gonna hit some hit some questions here. Uh, because there's there's some opinion-based questions. Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information, and digital coupons. Or visit Whole Foodsmarket.com to find a store closest to you.
+
+[22:47] We see. Kieran writes in. Sorry if you've covered this topic. I'm still about a hundred episodes behind, but catching up fast. Savory cocktails came up in a recent conversation.
+
+[22:54] I had a two-part question. Two parts. Ready for ready, guys? Two parts. I was wondering if you had any recommendations for savory cocktails that wouldn't be unreasonable to order at a bar.
+
+[23:05] Any by the way, I assume this means like a normal savory cocktail that you could order at a bar as opposed to as opposed to like, you know, like the Bennett's, like uh Nick Bennett's uh mushroom like champion Histino, which is like, you know, you can't walk into a regular bar and order that, right? So I'm presuming we mean regular bar situation. Uh and any recommendations that aren't explicitly meat-based, like a bullshot, that would be an unreasonable thing to order at most bars, by the way. Yes. Uh would be great.
+
+[23:34] I'm not vegetarian, but people seem understandably hesitant about meat-based drinks aside from the occasional shot of Worcestershire sauce. Which by the way, most people use fake Worcestershire sauce now that doesn't contain anchovies. Did you know that? Yeah, most people, like a lot of people, unless they're using Leon Perrin's, which is the real stuff. Like a lot of people, if they buy their wishes shirt a place like Whole Foods, they have anchovy-free, which to me it's not really Worcestershire sauce.
+
+[23:56] What's the point? It's not Worcestershire sauce. I mean, the only thing I can think of, then no, there's no, I mean, the the best savory drink to order at a bar is bourbon meat. You know what I mean? Yeah, right?
+
+[24:05] You know what I mean? Or something like that, or a scotch. Or like uh mezcal Negroni or something. Scotch got a sugar in it. It's not savory.
+
+[24:12] Yeah, that's true. But it can be, yeah. I mean, they're like say to me, savory implies savory foods can have sugar, right? Obviously. Duh.
+
+[24:24] Right? But if on a cocktail, if you're gonna say it's savory, to me, the overwhelming uh palate on it has to be things that are not on the sweet side, right? I mean, it sounds like a mezcal negroni's all smoke, you know? Yeah, but smoke and sweet, like like is uh is you know, are all those bacon candies not that I'm a big thing but uh those are you know you're still gonna get like the sugar feel in your mouth yeah it's true still need a sugar feel right it's the worst I mean the only thing you could order is a Bloody Mary yeah but that's really a morning drink so you know I mean you can't you can't reasonably walk into a bar and order a Bloody Mary in the nighttime right people do it not reasonable no they do that it's not reasonable but I think that's why we did the clarified one that you could drink at night. You don't want I don't want soup at the bar.
+
+[25:18] Unless it's soup. I like soup. Then it's cuspage. But I mean yes but I mean in other words like that's right. But I mean in other words like I like eating a soup.
+
+[25:27] Yeah. I like soup. I made some soup the other day. Delicious soups. Um yeah so that I I don't think Mindy can you think of any are you still there?
+
+[25:34] Yeah no I said uh Scotch and salted peanut but I've ordered I've ordered Bloody Mary's any time of the day. Really? Had you just woken up from a nap I mean you know some people will be like if you go to like a crappy bar and you're like I want a dirty Bloody Mary or how about that? How about like a dirty martini? That's very savory.
+
+[25:55] Alright I'll give you that. Mindy makes a good Bloody Mary. I'll give you that I'll give you the dirty Bloody Mary. It only is like a hundred and twelve ingredients but it's a lot of ingredients. It's good.
+
+[26:06] It's really good. Alright and then the second part of the question is can you think of a reason why savory drinks haven't become more common or have I just uh not looked hard enough I'm not much of a bar fly, but renewed interest in mixed drinks and gastro pubs seems like the perfect environment for something less sweet on the drinks list. I'll also be sending this question to Kenji uh Lopez Alt since it's vegan month and seems like it's an interesting thing. So I don't know what Kenji came up with. But I just don't think it's the thing that people I've made savory cocktails before.
+
+[26:31] Uh and usually my response is that was really good sip of drink. And then you don't want to think about it this way. Your average cocktail is oh, somewhere between once it's all made, somewhere in the neighborhood of five ounces, five at our bar, five, six ounces. You know what I'm saying? So think about that.
+
+[26:54] That's uh five or six uh ounces is like you know, a third of a pound of stuff. You know what I mean? And so you're pounding that much of savory. I don't know. It's a lot of savory.
+
+[27:07] It's a lot of savory to have, you know. I don't know, I just I don't know. I don't have a good answer for this, so I feel bad, but I just can't think of a I I I I can't I would never order that stuff myself. I like dry, but I like I say I don't consider bourbon or scotch. Okay.
+
+[27:26] Yeah. That's true. You know what I told you the grossest thing I ever uh the grossest things I've ever made are savory, drink wise. The grossest, most disgusting drinks I've ever made, savory or I mean uh drink wise are savory drinks. What was the worst?
+
+[27:40] Oh, without a doubt, the recarbonated uh centrifuged uh burrito in in beer. Yeah, it sounds terrible. Oh man. It's freaking nightmare. Sounds like a lot of work to put a burrito in a sort of thing.
+
+[27:52] It was the worst. Mindy, were you there for that shoot? I just don't even understand why. That was the worst. Was it Nastasi?
+
+[27:57] Were you there for that shoe? It was me. That's the worst. It was right around that switch over time. It's worst.
+
+[28:03] Worst. No, it's two years in, yes. Really? Then uh we have uh I made I I've made some good, very good, but they're beef broth based, where you kill the gelatin and beef broth, you nuke out the gelatin, and it's thin and but they're short shot situations. Also, I think you don't want a lot of your say the savory drinks are better a little bit on the warmer side, which also takes it against what people I don't know.
+
+[28:25] You made beef shots? Oh, yeah. So much better than a bullshot. We used to we had this old enzyme called coralase, and coralase literally ate the gelatin out of stock. So you wouldn't have to two ways to do it.
+
+[28:39] You can do gel clarification by taking uh a stock that has a certain amount of gel in it. You know, you have to do a fairly light stock, just set, right? Freeze it, thought, stuff drips out, it's clear. Now you can reduce that down without the gelatin resetting because there's no more gelatin in it. You've leached the gelatin out.
+
+[28:53] So you can make these very, very, very concentrated, very savory. I think we did like beef and clarified tomato, which is good. You know what I mean? That sounds good. It was good.
+
+[29:02] I would do that. Yeah, a shot. You don't want a glass of it. Your beef though. Was it Nebraska beef?
+
+[29:09] Uh well, of course. The possibilities for Nebraska beef are. Endless. Uh no, they changed that. Ask Angela, they changed it.
+
+[29:16] Dude, we went through it at the beginning. It's the worst. It's the worst. I missed it. It's the worst.
+
+[29:21] Nobody wants uh nice. How is the beef from Nebraska? It's nice. Nice. Nice.
+
+[29:27] Nice. Anyway. Uh, and uh the other way to do that, of course, the other way to do it is to use the enzyme. The enzyme is awesome. I wish I could get coralase.
+
+[29:36] I've never had a good result with um, I never had a good result using meat tenderizers to wipe out the gelatin, regular meat tenderizers to wipe out the gelatin. A, they seem to add a little bitterness when you wipe out the stuff, and B, for some reason, uh when you try to do agar clarification off of uh something that you've hit with uh that has uh the broken up gelatin from the stuff, you get the you get this grainy, nasty texture. We were never able to do anything, we're never able to do anything good with it. But yeah, that coral lace was so awesome. I can still picture the mounds of already reduced like gloss just melting under that coralase enzyme.
+
+[30:12] But for some reason it never got um popular. No one ever picked it up. No one ever and that Coralise enzyme was specifically built to break the uh gelatin down into non-bitter units. So a lot of times when you break down proteins into like very small polypeptide chains, you'll get a lot of like bitter notes. That's why like a lot of hydrolyzed protein if it's not like good quality stuff can have a little bit of bitterness to it.
+
+[30:35] But this corallase stuff that dead neutral the polypeptides that came out of it were like freaking not like not ruining Christmas which was nice about them. What was it the bitterness came from like free amino acid when it broke down? I certain shortchange polypeptides are just bitter. They have different flavors. There's you know they're just have a in general a lack of bueno.
+
+[30:55] Um you know what I mean? Yeah lack of bueno. Lack of bueno lack of bueno. So do we even have time for a break or we're not gonna take a break today Jack. I'm gonna insert it after.
+
+[31:04] Oh you're gonna insert it after all right. We'll fix it in post. Fix it in post. By the way speaking of post uh I have a oh I had a question oh I I'm working on a new cocktail that the bartenders are not gonna like and uh because it's too simple. But I'm testing this our centrifuge prototype stars which apparently I'm told by our lawyers that until the prototype on the rotor is finalized we can't publish any photos of it or not.
+
+[31:29] That was right. Alright uh but um check this out. Clarified orange juice, right? So, which as we know, clarified orange juice by itself tastes like sunny D, it's not the best, right? Clarified strawberry juice, right?
+
+[31:44] And then uh I did uh I did some rough calculations on it, and I'll give you those calculations now. So OJ is roughly 11 to 12 bricks, right? So 11 to 12% sugar by weight. Strawberry is about eight commercial Driscolls, about eight percent uh by weight, titratable acidity is like 0.75 in strawberry and 0.8 in OJ. So they're fairly similar, right?
+
+[32:06] So I did uh 400 grams of Clary strawberry, 500 uh grams of clary uh OJ. I did 16 grams of citric and 20 of malic to jack the the lime up to sour mix base because sour mix would be 50-50, right? Simple syrup and uh and what's it called? And uh what's it called? And uh 300 grams of uh sugar.
+
+[32:30] I think we might have been 600 grams of OJ. I gotta look at it. Anyway, 600 grams of OJ juice. And then uh put that all together, and then that's delicious. That's what we have right there.
+
+[32:40] That is strawberry orange cordial, unheated. That stirred into tequila is freaking delicious. Looks beautiful. It looks more orange when you stir it down. But uh I need a name for it though.
+
+[32:54] What do you think? It's not really it's not a margarita, it's stirred. But bartenders aren't gonna like it anyway because it's gonna it tastes really simple, it's like super simple. I like it like that. You know what else I developed with the in the center fuse styles that you might enjoy?
+
+[33:06] What? You actually you wouldn't enjoy it, you don't like gin. Angela, you like gin, right? Definitely. Yeah.
+
+[33:10] Blueberries, back to blueberries. Clarify I did a blueberry Houstino, which ordinarily is not very stable because the blueberries add a lot of liquid. Uh, did the calculations on it and then just carbonated it. So it was like blueberries, tiny bit of sugar, tiny bit of acid, uh, actually just in the water, because the blueberries are about the right uh acidity and sugar range for the gin, but I just needed to up it a little bit, and it's just like dark purple gin blueberry carbonated thing. Good sounds amazing.
+
+[33:38] Good. My bartenders will never go for it. They would hate it. Whatever. Anyway, if anyone in the chat room can come up with a name for that drink, that would be uh pleasant for me.
+
+[33:47] And we got this in from uh Ken. Remember Ken Ken Ingbert? Yep. Yeah. So he came in with I will read his comment because I didn't get to it uh uh last time.
+
+[33:57] Um this is back when we were talking about sandwiches with uh Peter Kim. Uh as you know, I also have deep platonic inspired ideas about the sandwich, but there's a much overlooked aspect of the sandwich, namely it's delivery. This is from Ken. Uh when I become a maximum ruler of the universe, uh this will change, uh this will change among many uh implemented in sandwiches. At random time, sandwich inspectors will require lunchtime counter prep workers who make and wrap sandwiches to reverse roles and while wearing their favorite pants and the shirt that their mother gave them, eat the aforementioned made and wrap sandwiches at their desk, experiencing the implausibly inexpensive aluminum foil permanently affixed to melted cheese and the mustard coated sprouts that cascade onto your lap and the excess tomato sauce whose sole purpose is extrusion.
+
+[34:43] You should not be having sprouts on your sandwich. That should be. I get what you the mustard, Ken, but you should not have any sprouts on your freaking sandwich. Do your freaking customers order sprouts, Angela? Do you have sprouts in your place?
+
+[34:54] No. Okay. No sandwiches. Secondly, I thought the group was unnecessarily negative on bad house guests. Maybe, well, okay.
+
+[35:02] Nastasia is not unduly negative on her bad house guests. She needs to like Nastasia. I like her friends, right? I like them only because they are her friends and not my friends. But you know, Nastasia's the kind of person where, like, on a regular basis, people will rent out their apartments to like use as Airbnbs, and then they will sleep on her couch and not kick her any of the Airbnb money.
+
+[35:25] That's like Stas's life. Plus trick plus, they'll bring her a bottle of yellowtail and they'll drink her good stuff. That's the kind of that's the kind of that's what Nastasia deals with on a regular basis. Am I wrong about that? Yes.
+
+[35:38] Mindy, were you trying to say something? Mindy has a. Oh, Mindy has an what do you got, Mindy? At that? Sorry.
+
+[35:45] I'm like, why don't you have your mom? She's she's having she's she's dealing with the home front. So well I'll fit I'll finish Ken's thing. Secondly, I thought that the group was unnecessarily negative on bad house guests. Some years ago, a large contingent of my family came to Boston to see my children perform in the national tour of a well-known musical.
+
+[36:02] My wife and I prepared and served a very nice meal at our home to all of them. And she and I were standing next to each other at the sink washing the dishes uh that we had cleared. I said to her, Well, this proves beyond a doubt that I come from royalty. She asked, how so? I replied, 15 people sitting around that table, and not one person lifted a finger to help.
+
+[36:20] Wow, rough. That's rough. So after I cook though, I don't want to clean. Do you want to clean? I uh he cooked and cleaned, which is the worst.
+
+[36:27] I usually do that. I I can't do it. I have to throw everything in the sink and then wait for the next day. I can't do it. I try to clean while I'm finishing up.
+
+[36:35] Yeah, I try to clean while I'm while you're finishing, then you eat dinner, and then you just have like everything from dinner left over. Yeah, that's the best way to do it. I'm a firm believer also in front of the house, back of the house, so it's like classic like roles. Like one person, if you're a couple, like one person has to do all the front of the house stuff, and one person does all the back of the house stuff, like get the plates ready. I hate hate when the plates aren't ready when the food is.
+
+[36:56] I hate it. Do you hate that? I don't know. Do you do front of house or back of house? Does your husband uh we we definitely collaborate?
+
+[36:59] Yeah, he's you can collaborate in the kitchen? Not at the bakery, but at home. We can. Really? So you're just a better person now.
+
+[37:10] You're a nicer person. I'm with you, dude. Yeah. Yeah. No.
+
+[37:13] Split it. Alright, so here's what I have to do before the next cooking issues. I have a chute. I can't talk about the shoot, obviously, because it hasn't happened yet, I get in trouble. But over the weekend, I have to build a chicken gun.
+
+[37:24] What? A chicken gun. A gun that can fire chickens. Dead chickens. Chickens come out of the gun.
+
+[37:31] Chickens come out of the gun. Why do you want to do that? Uh that I can't I can't talk about too much. But uh my uh the Mythbusters did one did one once, but they didn't they okay, so back in the day, okay, when they were used to test uh windshields for uh airplanes and other things, they would literally fire, it's a huge problem. They would fire birds at windshields and through engines and at fuselage parts and stuff like that.
+
+[37:57] And so the uh the uh Air Force, I think it was the Air Force, actually built a you know, a compressed air cannon that could fire uh birds into these into these things, right? And the chicken cannons, chicken guns. And so Mythbusters did a bunch of um of stuff on it, but they didn't do the key thing. My grandpa, who was a radar tech, a radar designer, he designed like airplane radar uh for Westinghouse. Um he said that when he saw them run it, the janitor used to come and pick up the birds and take them home and cook them.
+
+[38:31] So that is what I'm interested in. Interesting. Like what's like after you take a bird, full bone in bird, regular bird, and like hurl it at a couple of mile a couple hundred miles an hour at like a windshield. Like, what can you do with it from a culinary standpoint? What do you think?
+
+[38:47] I mean, do you think it's basically pate? Is it gonna have some sort of like I mean, is it gonna have any structure left at all? Is it gonna be useful? I bet you're the only one who's ever thought about this. I know my grandpa has.
+
+[39:00] You know, it's it are you gonna shoot a a live not a live chicken? No. Not a chicken with feathers. No. I would shoot a chicken with the feathers on.
+
+[39:11] That would be more realistic. However, they're also more expensive and harder to source. Okay. So like you're gonna shoot a like a p a Purdue? I don't know that I'm gonna use that brand, but yes, that style.
+
+[39:24] Yeah, but like a roaster? Not a roaster. I don't think I can build a gun big enough to do a roaster. I'm gonna have to I'm gonna do like a three. How big's a roaster?
+
+[39:32] I'm gonna do like a 3.75 pound chicken. Okay. That's small. Has to fit into a six-inch gun. Six-inch gun.
+
+[39:41] Wow. Six-inch diameter gun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:46] I need to get it up to a couple hundred mile an hour. Do you need a like the small Darcanian one? No, I'm not gonna do a I'm gonna I have a piece of Lexan already. No, like a medium, you know, like a small chicken. Like what I forget what those ranges are called.
+
+[39:57] But you know, like a crap, like the ones we used to break apart at the French culinary. You wanna know the really you want to know the really funny part? I'm not gonna tell them I'm gonna shoot it inside at the French culinary because that's where the shoot is. Get a heritage bird. I'm not gonna fire a heritage bird at the Hey Patrick, can I have one of your like really nice heritage birds?
+
+[40:17] I'm gonna fire it at a uh at a uh three-eighths inch thick piece of Lexan. Yeah. And then we're gonna eat it. It's free advertising for heritage Foods. I'm definitely gonna eat it, and kudos to that janitor who did not waste all of those.
+
+[40:31] Those birds did not smash into the windshield in vain. For nothing. For nothing. We gotta wrap up. You were saying after World War II.
+
+[40:41] My grandpa design actually was on the team that designed the radar at Pearl Harbor, the one that was ignored. No, he he became, I think, the head uh of that department uh after the war and all the way up through uh through through and beyond Vietnam. Like he did the radar in the uh F4 Phantom. And uh yeah, he's a you know he's a big radar guy at Westinghouse. That was his daily.
+
+[41:00] Right. And and my grandpa and my dad also worked for Westinghouse when he was young before he you know went out uh uh on his own, you know, as like summer jobs. So both of them have radar freaking skills, and you know my grandpa's still alive, he's like 96 or 7 or something like that. 97 this year. And uh they will not help me build my room-sized microwave oven with an old uh uh magnetron from a radar.
+
+[41:26] You guys know that story, right? They are so unreasonable. My God. Right? Right?
+
+[41:32] I mean that they are just so unreal. Like the old age. Yes, and so I will leave you guys with that. Thanks everyone for coming. Lifetime disappointment cooking issues.
+
+[41:49] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[42:14] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Open Table is a proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network. For more information, visit their blog, Open for Business at Openfor Business dot open table dot com. Hi, this is Celia Cutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Intro.
+
+[0:32] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Uh broadcasting where Stas. Bushwick. Where Brooklyn. Where Roberta's.
+
+[0:41] Oh, yeah. See, Sas, this is why I don't let you do the beginning section. You know, it's like you always say live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. I say Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn!
+
+[0:52] Like that. That's how you gotta do it. Right? Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:01] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. Lopez, how are you doing? Good. Yeah? Mm-hmm.
+
+[1:06] Yeah. Anything anything good happened? No. Nothing good. For real.
+
+[1:11] Nothing good. Anything bad? Anything terrible? No. Just the same old, same old.
+
+[1:16] Same old same old. How about you? Me? Mm-hmm. Uh oh, I got a lot of new stuff, but uh I can't talk about most of it.
+
+[1:23] Are we joined as usual in the booth with uh Jack Jackie Molecules Insley? Or is he still outside coming in in a minute? Yeah, Jackie Molecules is having a field trip right now. Oh my goodness. I've seen him.
+
+[1:32] We might we might be blessed with a little bit of a little bit of Jackie Molecules in there, but it's gonna get back. Yeah. Because otherwise it's gonna get confusing. Because it's gonna be Dave, David confusing stuff in the booth. Anyway.
+
+[1:46] Uh my point being. Did I what did I do? Oh, yes. Remember last week I said that I was going to build a chicken cannon? Mm-hmm.
+
+[1:54] Again, I can't talk about the specifics yet. But let me just say, that it is not that complicated to launch a chicken at over 200 mile an hour. However, I'll say this. Quarter inch thick, like polycarbonate, Lexan polycarbonate, is not up to the task of stopping said chicken. Oh my god, Stas.
+
+[2:18] We built this frame. Oh, you saw it? Who should who sent it to you? I get your email. Oh, if you didn't see the good one.
+
+[2:25] Anyway, so it's like it oh my god, that the frame it basically just evaporated. I tried to pick up all the chicken off the ground, but I had forgotten to put a big enough tarp underneath the area. And like it like when when I took it back inside, all the pieces and tried to wash the gravel and like you know, oak leaves and stuff off of it. It was just like everyone was like, I'm not gonna eat what are you doing? I'm not gonna eat that.
+
+[2:49] No one eat that. That's the whole point of shooting the chicken stars is to eat the meat afterwards, like that janitor did. Why are you shooting it though? Well, I told you, like ever since I was a kid, my grandpa would tell me about when he used to go to uh the testing facilities because he was doing radar work, right? For airplanes, how he would see them shoot the chickens into windshields, or you know, and birds into windshields to test the windshields.
+
+[3:14] This was in the 50s, I guess. Um, and he said that the janitor would pick them up and take them home and eat them. And I was like, oh man, oh man. You know, and then like I've always been kind of fascinated with this guy picking up these chickens and eating them afterwards, and so I wanted to kind of see what the meat would taste like. But I have yet to I have yet to taste meat fired from the chicken cannon.
+
+[3:38] But not that hard, frankly. I'll tell you this. If you are going to build one of your own, which I do not recommend for obvious reasons, because if you hurt yourself, you're gonna say that I told you to do it, right? So I'm not gonna Amazon.com has some fantastic deals on large uh on large cast iron butterfly valves. I'm talking like six hundred dollar valves on sale for like a hundred and twenty dollars, like prime delivery.
+
+[4:03] I don't know what the hell I think someone made a mistake. It's like some idiot at a company was like just like was like, yeah, $500 for that? And they put in like $150. So you know what I mean? It's like it's like they're charging for uh an uh an eight-inch valve, they're charging what you should charge for like a four-inch valve.
+
+[4:17] It's crazy. So anyone who wants to build a crazy chicken cannon, go look up uh cast iron butterfly valves in the eight-inch variety on Amazon. There's only a couple left when I bought them, so you know, your chance might be limited. Anyways, uh did I cook anything good? Did I get did I cook anything good?
+
+[4:37] I don't think I cooked anything good. I think I just I wanted to cook that chicken and then failed miserably. I cooked some really good stuff yesterday, but again, I cannot talk about it until May. Because we shot a little thing in the jig for the uh Playboy network. You want to know something else interesting?
+
+[4:54] Maybe interesting. Somebody m bought Playboy TV.com, and that is not affiliated with the Playboy uh network, and they haven't gotten the news yet that Playboy is now safe for work. And so if you were to go to Playboy TV.com, apparently not at all safe for your works, your workplace. Anyways. Dave, what's going on, man?
+
+[5:16] Well, I was saying that uh I shot something uh along with I'm not allowed to give the particulars yesterday for Playboy, and they're gonna release it sometime in May on on the on the internet. Right, that's exciting. Yeah, so more more we'll talk more about that in you know in the middle of of next month. But it was a lot of fun. Uh shot back at my uh where I used to teach there at the French Culinary Institute, the International Culinary Center.
+
+[5:38] Nice. Yeah. Sorry, I'm late. How are you doing, Jack? I'm good.
+
+[5:40] How are you doing? All right. Did you have anything interesting happen over the past week to you? Uh I want to say yes, but I no, not really. I was at a wedding this weekend.
+
+[5:49] Oh, yeah? How bad was the food? How bad was the food? Yeah. It was great, actually.
+
+[5:53] It was pies and thighs. Oh, okay. Pies and thighs. It was good stuff. Nice.
+
+[5:57] Yeah. I heard that uh there was an old remember pies and thighs, like went through a reincarnation? Yep. And uh one of the old cooks back in the first carnation came and worked here for a while. That's right, Carolyn Bain, yeah.
+
+[6:08] Yeah, and brought the fried chicken recipe. And their fried chicken recipe, I've mentioned this before on the show, but you know, it's been a long time. This goes completely against everything that I've ever known about fried chicken. I have yet to do the side by side, but they take directly from brine into flour and fry. Probably a self-rising flour or something.
+
+[6:27] But that right in the It's delicious, I have to say. Uh please tell me you like fried chicken, right? Okay. Well, well, what what style of fried? I said, well, you know, I have to ask because it's like so many preposterous things.
+
+[6:39] It's kind you you know come out of her mouth. Yeah, the fear in your voice was real. Yeah, real. Real. That would be, I don't know.
+
+[6:51] Like it's it's worse than biscuits. Wouldn't you agree that not liking fried chicken is worse than not liking biscuits? I listen, I like biscuits a lot, so but yes, I'll agree with you. Fried chicken would be worse. You still don't get the biscuit thing, though.
+
+[7:02] Nobody's. I feel like maybe Stas, you haven't had a great biscuit. No, I bet you she has it. But you know, you know, this is where Jack, you've known Nastasia long enough. Yeah, no, it's true.
+
+[7:10] If she decides she's not gonna like freaking biscuits, like like God could come hand her a biscuit, and she'd be like, this sucks. But I don't believe in him, so you don't believe in him. He gotta he's got a you know, he's got a gender all of a sudden now. But like but like my point is that like no matter like what, like literally, I could genetically I could put electrodes in Nastasia's brain that literally made her think that when she was eating a biscuit, it tasted exactly like the finest caviar on earth, which is one of her favorite foods. And she'd be like, nah, because it's a biscuit.
+
+[7:41] You see what I'm saying? That's like Stars for you. Just she's decided she's gonna hate on the biscuit. Yeah. And that's it.
+
+[7:47] It's over. You know what I mean? She's the same way with people. True or false, Doz. Mm-hmm.
+
+[7:53] Yeah. And she's like, uh, you'll get it later. She's like, I'm gonna let you say this on here now, and then I'm gonna get you later. Uh got this in from uh Jeffrey Given and Costa Mesa. Where's Costa Mesa against us?
+
+[8:06] Don't know. It's in California. Don't you know the whole damn state? No. Yeah, man.
+
+[8:10] I come from a long state. We didn't like to play this name. Uh hello, Stas and the Fun Bunch. I like that you did not put Nastasia into the fun bunch. Anyway, I don't also people are not allowed to call me Stas.
+
+[8:21] So it's Nastasia. Well, that's about it, right? For a stranger, it's just Nastasia. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[8:26] Yeah, she gets particular about this kind of stuff. Me, you know, call me jerkwad. Whatever you want. They would never do that to you. Oh, me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[8:34] Okay. Uh hello Anastasia and the fun bunch. Uh, this is a word uh uh shout out to uh Culture City. Uh it's been encouraging to learn about Culture City by way of heritage radio support. I whollyheartedly agree with Dave that it's equally important, if not more so, to um uh than researching a cure for autism is the broadening uh of acceptance and understanding uh of uh without limiting expectations of potential ability for individuals on the spectrum.
+
+[8:58] I don't yet have any children of my own. Just wait. Uh I don't yet have any children of my own. My wife's an elementary school teacher who specializes in gifted and talented education. Uh these are students who think and learn differently and benefit from multiple and specific uh teaching methods.
+
+[9:12] While they tend to be highly creative and bright, they also often lack some of the social cognizance their peers might already possess. Ain't that the truth? You know what I'm saying? Uh what uh where's our peers? Sorry, my my phone went really tiny, guys, and my and my old eyeballs can't uh uh adjust.
+
+[9:31] Anyway, um sorry, sorry. I get the opportunity to be in these classrooms regularly, and one of the most rewarding things to witness is the way my wife has helped to provide them with the space, resources, and confidence to thrive as individuals while learning to accept each other's quirks and behavioral idiosync idiosyncrasies. Idios what's wrong with me today? I can't read you know it's because of my freaking bike ride. I'll more of that later.
+
+[9:53] I'm still angry about my bike ride. Uh idiosyncrasies uh in a loving and supportive way. So before I get to the question that they ask, that's a nice shout-out, right? We're still working with the culture city movement. Yeah, they're the best people.
+
+[10:04] Like really some of the best people I've ever met. I actually went to their uh I spent some time on their on their website. Hey, they like uh they're they're totally worthy of support. What do we do with them? Do they just like support us or do we do stuff for them?
+
+[10:15] What? Um, both. I mean, they they've definitely supported us. Basically, the story with Culture City is Julian um got in touch with us through a charity auction where he got to come here and meet Tom Calicchio and interview Tom Calicchio in the studio. That was the auction.
+
+[10:27] It's like come meet and interview Tom Calicchio. And he asked him all about um some of these autism initiatives, like putting iPads in restaurants and stuff. It was like a way for him to kind of get Culture City out there and start getting it in people's ears. So we did we did some work with them. We produced uh a whole radio documentary about what they do, and then we went down to Birmingham at their annual gala.
+
+[10:44] Um and then I actually DJ'd their junior gala, which was a lot of fun. It was a Halloween party. Yeah? Yeah. It's Culture City with a K, by the way.
+
+[10:56] Why? Why K. That's a great question. I I couldn't tell you. I have to say, like, I hope I'm not offending anyone out there, but I really don't like spelling C words with Ks.
+
+[11:06] Cars for kids? Uh you know, I found out about that. You know that uh well, I don't want I'm not gonna I'm not gonna blow up but anyway, like but like I don't know, so it's it's specifically I don't like country kitchen with two Ks. Whenever I see country kitchen with two K's, it makes me feel that you're one K short of being KKK. And I just don't like it.
+
+[11:23] You know what I mean? I just get like first of all, uh I mean I hate to, you know, I'm not I don't want to like dive into stereotypes here, but when you're seriously, when you go country kitchen two K's, you're one step away, people. Don't do it. But we'll accept Culture City. We'll accept Culture C because there's the second the second C, yeah.
+
+[11:42] They didn't go two thirds of the way to KKK. And so, you know, it's still kind of acceptable. What do you think about the country kitchen stuff? I hate it. Hate it, right?
+
+[11:52] I also don't like I don't like extra P's and E's on my shoppies and my I don't like any of that stuff. Do you like any of that stuff? Two E's, I'm not into that, no. None of that's oh the oh the shoppy, I see what you're saying. Just the E at the end of the shop.
+
+[12:03] That's kind of cool. That's like old timey. Really? Yeah. Shoppy?
+
+[12:06] Depends on where we are, right? I don't know, man. If someone opened a shoppy over here, I'd be like, get out of here. Yeah, oh my god. If if Nastasia, I'm I'm just gonna guess.
+
+[12:14] What would you do if you walk past a shoppy here? Would you spin on it? I don't know what a shoppy is. Like ye oldie shoppy. It's like like would you like be like in Brooklyn?
+
+[12:23] I met a guy, I can't talk about who I met yesterday. Anyways, okay. Uh should I mention so I can get it out of my system real quick the bike ride? Another freaking jerk on the freaking Williamsburg Bridge, going downhill, no hands on his freaking handlebars, earphones in, weaving back and forth. I didn't want to pass the guy.
+
+[12:40] Listen, you're not cool. Put your hands on the handlebars. What if someone like me isn't as cautious? And if you think I'm cautious, me, come on. Like someone who's like like less cautious than me goes to pass you, you swerve and clip that freaking guy because you're texting your idiot buddy, and you all go flying down that bridge at like 25 mile an hour onto pavement and skinning yourself like a freaking grape because you know that stupid bastard wasn't wearing a helmet.
+
+[13:03] You know what I'm saying? Dumb. Dumb. And then you've used to ride here, right? Back before you hated riding in Brooklyn so much.
+
+[13:10] Speaking of nostasia now. You know when you're driving up Grand on the way here, and there's that like long line of parked cars, and then there's all that traffic next to you, so you're in like this tube, this corridor. Guy jumps out, walks out into it, like right out freaking into it, not looking. I'm doing like 18, you know, 19 mile an hour below the speed limit. But like, you know, and like I'm like, oo!
+
+[13:31] Like that to him, you know what I mean? And like he yells at me, he's like, use your brakes. And I'm like, you're in a bike lane. You know what I mean? I was like, what the hell, people?
+
+[13:41] I would have felt bad if I had wiped that guy out a little bit, but I'm more angry at him. It's one of those things. And then you know what? The concrete plant today that you have to drive past. People, New York is not pleasant.
+
+[13:52] I love it here. I love it, I love it. But is there anything pleasant about New York City? No. Jack, what do you think?
+
+[13:59] Anything ple I mean, I love it. I love it deeply. Do you use? Devuse. I got a caller on the line, that's what I think.
+
+[14:05] All right. But you're not gonna you're not gonna, you're not gonna make a statement. I I missed you. I had to pick up the phone. I said, Is there anything like like literally the word pleasant?
+
+[14:12] Is there anything pleasant about New York City in general? About New York City? Yeah. No. You to live here, you have to like constant beat downs.
+
+[14:23] No, no, I wouldn't say there's anything pleasant. I think if you were like mega rich, maybe you could just squash all the people in front of you and then maybe have some sort of pleasant experience. It might be pleasant if I had more money, that's true. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[14:35] Caller, you're on the air. Hi, I have a question regarding baby food. Ah, okay. So we just had a baby, he's about three months old now, and he'll be starting solid food in a couple months. Congratulations.
+
+[14:51] So I promise it's only one question, but I want to make sure the food tastes good and it's safe, but I don't want it to taste like canned baby food. So I want to do something a little bit more creative. Well, good news is, I mean, again, remember, not a uh not a professional, look into it. The good news, obviously, and since you're, you know, uh have a a newborn relatively, um, you know, you probably looked at all the current research, which means that unlike when I was having children, they basically say that you can and can I encourage you to give kids a wide variety of uh things early on, thank goodness. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:31] Uh so you're extremely lucky in that regard. Uh you're a couple of main concerns that you're gonna have, uh, and I don't know if they still say this, is you're gonna have to watch out for um certain foods that um can are potentially toxic to infants, right? So you're not gonna sweeten with honey, right? If you were gonna sweeten something. Um and also uh and this is again, I haven't done the research in a number of years, but you're gonna uh you'd be wary of saying large amounts of uh certain leafy greens like um spinach because of potentially I believe it's potentially high um uh nitrogen nitrate levels but I don't know if they still have that uh I I don't know if that's still a recommendation but they used to basically things like that like Gerber's pitch and maybe Gerber was paying people to do this was saying that they very tightly monitor the um like the levels of these things in their products and so they can um they can adjust whereas like the the ratios of those things can be very very variant in a naturally produced item because the plants take up a lot of that stuff from the soil so a lot depends on fertilizer lay down and you know how much rainfall they had prior to harvest and etc etc.
+
+[16:45] So like those are the only two caveats. Now on that obviously you're not gonna want to feed anything that's going to cause any sort of food poisoning but you're not gonna have to cook things to the same kind of level that you would have in a canned environment where for instance like a lot of um a lot a lot of vegetables can take on that canned kind of v vegetable taste right now I'm preserv presumably you're if you're gonna do this you're gonna make the investment do you already own a vita prep you said a vita prep? Yeah do you what is do you mean like a Vitamix or yeah yeah yeah so like a Vitamix is sorry the the commercial version of the Vitamix is a vitaprep. It's the same thing. Uh yeah you own you own one of those yeah we have like a professional Vitamix at home but we don't have the commercial version, obviously.
+
+[17:31] Well, they're the same motor. The the only difference is is they expect people in a commercial kitchen to beat it to death. And so they put a different label on it and they give you a different warranty. But it's this it's it's literally the same people. It's not it's one of the rare instances where the commercial version isn't any beefier than the home version.
+
+[17:50] It just costs more because they know they're gonna have to like uh uh you know, have a lot of warranty issues on it. Whereas like, you know, 99% of people at home aren't gonna abuse um their blenders the same way that a uh a commercial kitchen will. So yeah, you're in good shape. So if you have that, um, you know, uh with with those two caveats, I'd say go for it. I don't know, like, are you guys vegetarian?
+
+[18:12] You eat meat or or or what? Hello? Did we lose them? Yeah, and we have a little bit of a bad connection, it's muffled. I apologize.
+
+[18:22] Do you uh do you guys eat meat? Because one of the great things about a vita prep is you can blend uh meat like like like nobody's business. I would use meats, uh I don't know if you eat meat, but like you can do i anything like that. I don't know whether people are like uh gonna get mad at me for recommending feeding meat to a kid, but you I I I did. I fed the kids ev everything.
+
+[18:40] You know, it's just you you want to beware of choking and and uh I would say look into those things that I mentioned, like certain leafy things. I think spinach was the one that they really talked about. I bet you celery is the same, but who's gonna feed their kid pureeed celery? That sounds kind of gross, right? You're gonna feed your celery.
+
+[18:56] So is there anything like one idea I had was like in from Modernist Cuisine where you caramelize the carrots and do something like that so that you make the food taste a little bit better. Is there do you have any other recommendations like that? Yeah, you know, you look, you could take stuff that you're making for yourself, just like you don't even like if you're roasting carrots, which are delicious, just roast extra and then just use a little uh stock or something to be able to blend it into the right texture, and it's gonna be a lot more uh delicious. Do you know what I'm saying? I obviously I would adjust the texture.
+
+[19:26] I would buy a couple of cans of the of the of the jars rather of the Gerber stuff just to check the consistency on it to see whether you're in the in the kind of realm of consistency. Because if you go, obviously, if you go too gluey, you just want to be you know careful that they're not gonna choke or or aspirate or anything like that. Of course. But yeah, so like I I mean I I would say almost any like the great thing about the vita prep is you could take almost anything that you like and then turn it into the texture of a uh baby food. Most people who are making it are mainly worried about kind of trying to go like hyper healthy on uh on a baby, which to me it's like, you know, I don't know, like uh I don't don't please don't get me started uh on that.
+
+[20:08] But it's like uh you know, like I wish to God that I could go back and have ignored my doctor's recommendations about what not to feed my children early on. Uh but you like I said, as a parent, you just can't do that. Uh you can't ignore what the doctor says because then if you're wrong, you know, you're you're you're a big jerk. You know, you're you've ruined your kids, you know. Uh but you know, you know, you live in a in a permissive time, so it's uh you know, you're you're very lucky.
+
+[20:33] One thing I will say is that um, and this you know, something that I've noticed uh that there's no way to judge from um a baby what your child will turn into when they get older in terms of their eating habits. So uh I know for instance, like my older son who uh is on the he's on the autistic spectrum, so a lot of those kids have um a lot of those kids have issues with being very, very picky, not liking things mixed, right? Not liking things that are mixed together, being very sensitive to certain flavors, etc. etc. And who knows whether these things develop?
+
+[21:09] It's hard to know if these things are gonna develop. In fact, it's impossible. But the um but the funny thing is is when he was a baby, he would pound things that tasted like very adults would never think that you would like. So he used to eat fistfuls of capers. There's fistfuls and fistfuls of capers.
+
+[21:24] He still has some strange tastes. Like he loves like fish eggs. He and Nastasia would be like right up the same alley pounding, you know, uh cured fish eggs. Uh so you you never you never never can uh judge. I mean, you know, I you know, my hope for you is that you're lucky and you get a child who uh likes everything on an early age and maintains that love their whole life.
+
+[21:44] I mean, that's a freaking joy as a parent. But you know we don't always get lucky. And you always don't you don't always get to choose what you're that's the thing. I thought when I was a parent that if I just expose my kids to all this stuff, that of course they're gonna like it the same way I do. Nope.
+
+[21:58] No, they're their own people. They'll choose what they want. You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. All right.
+
+[22:04] Well, thank you so much. All right, no problem. And uh check up on the chat room, because I'm sure some people in the chat room uh who've had more recent uh children have some probably good advice on uh on that. Wouldn't you say, Jack? Absolutely.
+
+[22:16] Yeah, all right. Okay, I'll have to take a look at that. All right, thanks very much. Uh thank you. Okay, so back to the uh Jeffrey Givens cooking.
+
+[22:25] Oh, we had a question? All right, got it. Caller you're on the air. Sorry about that. Yeah, no problem.
+
+[22:28] Caller you're on the air. What's up? Oh, hi, Dave. Um, I traded a tweet or two with you last week about tandoors and what you're looking for in one. Ah, yeah.
+
+[22:36] And want to uh follow up on that because there seems to be you got the idea of uh I mean I want to do high heat grilling, and I was looking at like kibachi likes, and you got the idea of tandoors in my head, and I've been following up on it, and there's a lot out there. I figured that one tandoor is the same as the next, but they make them out of all sorts of different things, different sizes, no clue what's useful or not in a tandoor. Okay, so here's here's I really have experience in the one that I have, right? And uh, but I have you know a good bit, and I did look into uh a lot of them. So the the typical tandoor um that uh you know that you read about is kind of this, and mine was made in Delhi, right?
+
+[23:18] And so like a lot of those is uh I I'm pretty sure and it's been a while that they're done um kind of rope style, they're built up, smoothed out. There's some form of hair fiber mixed in with the clay uh as uh a binder, right? Then those basic shells are kind of the standard tandoor that they make in Delhi, and then at least for the one that I have, and then they're lined in various different kinds of casings and they're made in various sizes and shapes, right? There are other people, for instance, there's a a relatively I think well well regarded tandoor maker in um the United States, I forget his name. He's not he's not Indian, but he makes a lot of tandoors for uh ovens and for you know some kind of fancier establishments that uses a very different kind of clay makeup, and I think, although it's been a long time, I think he might throw them.
+
+[24:07] In other words, like it's like a traditional um like a traditional pot. So I like when it comes to composition like that, I don't really have a lot of experience. So it's not like you know, like using a million different kinds of ovens that I can come down and say, well, this person's full of crap, this one's not. When I did it just for price, and also for um for price, and I figure it's very traditional. I just went with the one that was made in Delhi, right?
+
+[24:31] Uh, because I figured those guys, they know from tandoors, right? And so then, you know, there are some companies that sell uh tandor shells or you know, the the ovens, uh uh some people do two parts and they ship them, and then you can encase them in your own sort of refractory. Initially, I was like, look, I just want to use this sucker right away. And so I got one where the guy gets it, they put it inside of a uh stainless steel bucket, you open it from the bottom, and that's that's it. But beyond that, you have to choose what size you want, right?
+
+[25:00] So the you know, the size I got was the larger of the ones that are recommended for for home people, because the guy was like, unless you're gonna do really, really big parties, um, the bigger ones just take a lot more fuel to fire. So you're just gonna go through a lot more coal, uh, you know, and it's just gonna be kind of a bigger headache that way. And you know what? I think he was right. There are some times I wish I had a lot more space in it, but really I've you know, unless you're gonna cook for more than 15 people a lot and cook exclusively in the tandoor, I think the size that I have is good.
+
+[25:32] And in fact, if I was gonna up it, if I was gonna get one of the really big ones, I would probably rather have two tan two smaller tandoors than one big one. So my small one, so if you go to tandors.com, which is in Summit, New Jersey, I have the larger of the two ones that they kind of recommend for home that's on wheels. It's fairly easy to move around if you're a giant hawking person. But I can put one, two, three, four, I could put four nons on the inside at once, which is about as much as I can put in before I have to start removing the other one because I'm not that fast. And so um, you know, I think it's it's pretty uh good.
+
+[26:05] But so like once you choose the construction and how it's made, then the size is the next thing. I wanted a freestanding one because I wanted to be more flexible. If you're gonna build it in, then maybe you can get your own liner and just fill it with a refractory around, you know what I mean? I'm assuming you want coal and not gas, right? Um, it's open.
+
+[26:22] And that was the other question I had for you. Because in my head, it was um coal seems like it would get hotter, and the whole idea here is as hot as you can get it. I mean, that's you know, why I'm not doing it in the oven. It depends on what you're doing, frankly. So the problem with tandoors is well it's not a problem, but like uh the coals at the bottom, and you still have the the coals at the at the bottom, and typically the stuff that's at that coal end of the skewer gets really like almost like burnt.
+
+[26:48] So it's like like when I have some time, what I'm gonna do, so there's a sweet spot in the skewer above that level where everything is kind of cooked evenly and it's nice and bel, but that's only at medium heat. If you have a roaring hot coals in the bottom, like you're still heating it, then um then there isn't necessarily that much of a sweet spot because you just have such intense radiation from the coals on the bottom. I'm gonna build a little like blast shield for my skewers that can kind of clip on so that like I can like have a roaring hot flame but reflect a lot of that heat back so that that first couple of pieces don't have that like I've just re-entered the Earth's atmosphere look to them. Um putting things on a fencing foil? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[27:28] Exactly, yeah, like a like a like a reverse fencing foil there. But the um so like what I typically do is just throw something I don't care about on the end, like uh like a half a potato. The other trick is is like getting the um getting the stuff not to slide down to a little a bit of an art. But also not everything wants to cook at the high temperature. So typically what I'll do, and gas, uh, you know, it's probably gonna be more nimble.
+
+[27:51] I know I think people make one that you can just shove the gas burner in when you're using it, pull it out and fire it with coal, which would probably be a good kind of middle ground. Um, but like non doesn't want to be that hot. If the if your oven's too hot for the naan, um it's just gonna scorch the bottom before the top gets nice and brown because the clay'll heat up so much. So you really, you know, there are there is a sweet spot. It's not just all like intense ripping, ripping heats.
+
+[28:17] For some things it is. You know, I mean shrimp, like you can't really get it h like too hot to do shrimp. You know what I mean? But uh a a lot uh depends. So there's like um the more you use it, the more you'll get the the the hang of that stuff.
+
+[28:30] But typically what I'll do is I'll fire the tandoor with a fairly big load of coal. Uh fill the whole thing uh then let it let it come down a little bit. Meanwhile, I'll start a ch a big chimney starter of coals. I'll do my nons when the temperature is kind of mellowed out and the whole thing's relatively even. I'll do my nons, pull them, throw them into the warming oven, like inside, then I'll dump in the chimney and then I'll do the proteins that I want to go ripping hot.
+
+[28:57] That's typically what I do. All right. Well, thank you. That seems uh gives you some more information to look in on. Yeah, and I look and also like Tandor is just immense fun to work with.
+
+[29:08] But don't necessarily feel like you need to go traditional. It's but one of the most rewarding kind of like cooking like fun things that I get to do because it's not technical at all. I mean it is, you have to think about it technically, but it's not like accurate technical the way the a lot of stuff that I do is. And so um if you go to like uh one of these uh home you know home improvement stores, they sell all these uh um gadgets for people's normal grills like baskets and stuff, which in general I I don't really use when I'm using a normal grill. But they're really kind of cool to hang in the tandoor.
+
+[29:39] So like I'll get baskets and you can fill like a you could like put the baskets like that you could do like hamburgers in it and things that are hard to skewer that you don't necessarily want to skewer, you want to get a higher density, and you can expose them very evenly to the radiant heat of the wall by suspending these baskets on a skewer over the thing. Oh, I'll mention this. The other thing you have to get kind of good with is manipulating the the lids and the uh the lid and the uh and the open vent at the bottom to kind of adjust a flow of heat through it. So if you're you know, it's it's all about like putting the skewers around, rot like rotating them and in and out, in and out. I know I've mentioned that before, but like you know, it's like all of my all of my pro breads go in once, duh.
+
+[30:18] But like most of the other things go in at least twice, sometimes three times to get that kind of surface the way you want. So you're gonna want to, wherever your tandoor is, you're gonna need to have a and it's better to air hang them, to hang the racks. I mean, you can lay them down, but I find it's better to hang the skewers or whatever you're using in between when they're running. So I have a uh uh like a like a rim near my tandoor where I can hang all my skewers in between when they're going in and out, and I spray them with Pam to you want a light oil coat on them, let them dry off before you put in. I hit them with Pam on the second or third go-around to get the sizzle going quickly.
+
+[30:53] A little pro tip for you. All right. And are you using uh Kingsford here or like something special? I use c I use um well, is it I forget the name of it. It's in a red bag.
+
+[31:04] It's in a big red bag, and it's not Kingsford. I don't use bricks or briquettes, I use uh hardwood charcoal, so it looks like pieces of wood. And uh and I throw it in. And it's not that expensive, and the big box stores uh sell it, and uh it's great. And you know, you're not you know, it's it's slightly more expensive than the compressed briquettes, but you know, you kind of you know what you're getting, and I don't know, it just feels right and I use it, you know.
+
+[31:28] Yeah, and lastly, um do you have any special tools for the NAND or like what do you use to get in there? Do you have uh like a welding glove or do you um? Uh okay, so here's the thing. Um the putting the putting it in is not a big deal. You they give you like a coconut fiber stuffed pillow, which when you're learning, you'll accidentally catch on fire if you're anything like me.
+
+[31:50] So mine has like all the stuffing coming out of it and everything, but I still use it. And uh you have this um this like it looks like a little pillow, like you know, like a like a catcher's mit slash pillow. And you stretch out the you s you stretch out the bread, you wet the side that's gonna go against the tandor slightly. I use my hands, but I guess you could use a mister. Do not wet the side that's on the pillow, and then you put your hand in and whack, you get the you get the thing um on the side, right?
+
+[32:19] Uh and that's part of the art. When you're learning, you're you're gonna drop a bunch into the fire. Once it touches the coal at the bottom, ignore it's done. It's done. It's over.
+
+[32:30] Right? Uh then when you get it off, you don't need a glove either because you're using this dual skewer. You're shoving this like pointed stick into the bottom of the of the non and then scraping it off with this like spatula like thing like stick uh with the other. These two skewers typically come with your tandoor, and then it swings down like a pendulum, you lift it out and you're good to go. The but you do want to invest in uh you're gonna have to have some side towels there.
+
+[32:57] And I would also invest in one of those grill gloves because the skewers are intensely freaking hot, right? And if you ever need to work with them, and the lid can also get it. Now the lid I usually uh pick up with a side towel, but the uh the skewers and stuff, you don't want to use a side towel, and I'll tell you why. The skewers have a little hook shape on the end of them, right? That's how you're hanging them uh when they're in between.
+
+[33:20] And when you're trying to manipulate that hook around with the side towel, the side towel gets jumbled around in the hook, and it just becomes impossible to do like a lot of fine rotation with it with a side towel. So for the for lifting out the hooks and manipulating them, I use a um I use uh one of those grill mitts, the the I think Weber makes them. And then I use a side towel and to slide the things off of the skewer, typically I'll slide the stuff off the skewer into a butter dish and then throw it in a warming oven if I'm doing a lot before we're we're eating. And when you're sliding food off of the skewers, the bottom part of the skewer typically is red hot from being in the coals. So I s I'll slide it down and get a little bit of that sizzle, drop it into the um, drop it into the bucket, which goes back into the warming oven inside.
+
+[34:07] And you don't want to try to you don't want to try to strip a whole skewer at once. Like fragile foods like shrimp, if you're stripping a whole skewer, they'll literally just blow themselves apart because the proteins on the on the shrimp have kind of welded themselves around part of the skewer. Potatoes also do this. The heat will travel up the skewer, and the very bottom potato will have this like incredibly hard to scrape off like ring of potato, like kind of melded to the skewer at the bottom. So if you try to pull the whole skewer skewer off at once, you'll just shred everything that's on the skewer.
+
+[34:39] So what you want to do is kind of like take take the first thing off the bottom and then either one or two things at a time off. The good thing about that is is that if you have a situation where there's a huge temperature delta in your oven from the bottom to the top, you can take off that that bottom one that's gonna get done and then throw the throw the rest of this or the bottom two and throw the rest back in to finish up. You do not have to remove all of them at once, which is a little another pro tip. Nice. Nice.
+
+[35:08] Well, thank you very much. I think this was um Yeah, you got me all amped up for Tandors now. Nice. Well, uh, you know, write back and let us know. I've never met someone who's like, you know, I got a tandoor, and you know what?
+
+[35:18] It wasn't very good. Never had that happen. You know what I mean? Sounds good. All right.
+
+[35:24] Thank you very much. All right, no problem. Okay, so back to uh Jeffrey Givens' question in Costa Makeup. Onto the cooking issue. We recently held a fry fest with our outdoor six-gallon, six-gallon Cajun fryer, uh, about which I spoke with you on air just after Thanksgiving.
+
+[35:40] It holds 47 pounds of oil. You must must acquire one of these for your outdoor Connecticut kitchen. Well, I have a regular uh 35-pound, I think, uh, you know, commercial fryer. But if I had to go back, I might not get the commercial fryer. I might have gotten the Cajun Fryer, who knows?
+
+[35:54] Because it's meant to go outside, and mine is not meant to go outside, which means I have to keep it under an Eve, which is a little bit of a pain in the butt. But if I told my wife that I was gonna go spend money on another fryer, like I would be talking out of the other side of my face because she would have slapped it like like right? I mean, like there's no way. Imagine telling Jen that I was gonna buy another deep fryer stuff. No, yeah, no, no, no, no.
+
+[36:14] All right. Um the little monster could handle every freaking thing we threw at it, and we literally could not keep up with battering and chucking all manner of food into it due to the high heat capacity and recovery. By the way, I did your uh take a whole chicken, break it down and circulate it at two different temperatures with debone meat glued thighs rolled up in their own skin and drumsticks debone by snipping the tendons and popping the thing out with the skin still intact. Incredible. Good.
+
+[36:36] Well, I'm glad people are still using that technique. I love that technique. I like fried chicken, as we've mentioned before. The only thing that didn't work from a functional standpoint, there were a few flavor disasters, were battered cheese sticks. When you say battered cheese sticks, do you think of like cheesesteaks that have taken a beating, or you think of battered as a Nastasia?
+
+[36:52] That's why I love Nastasia, because she thinks about like those cheesesteaks taking a freaking beating. Whereas like most people would think like b breaded, right? Right, Jack? Right. Most people would think breaded, I think.
+
+[37:01] He's gone here. Yeah. Anyway. Right. Uh we tried a smoked gouda, and you like smoke gouda sauce?
+
+[37:09] Not really. Really? Do you? Yeah. I grew up eating it.
+
+[37:12] You know, like it grew up getting it in all those like 1970s, like cheese baskets. Mm-hmm. I like so I I grew up liking any kind of smoked cheese. Jack? Thoughts?
+
+[37:21] He's not there. He's not there anymore? I don't know. Dave? Gouda's great.
+
+[37:24] Good. You smoked? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, what about other smoked cheeses? Do you like other smoked cheeses?
+
+[37:29] Oh, yeah, yeah. Um like them all. Yeah. Stas, what are your thoughts on the Italian like a fumicotto like pecorino Saro, those really hard, like like smoked cheeses? No?
+
+[37:41] No. I do in small quantities. I wouldn't want to eat a lot. What are your what are your thoughts on uh truffled cheeses? Don't like at all.
+
+[37:49] Wow, nice. Do you? Oh, I don't want to not like them, but I don't like them. Most of my family likes anyway. Truffle tough.
+
+[37:58] Truffle. Wow, that's all it's almost a rhyme. Truffle truffle tuffle. Getting into a truffle tussle. Yeah, now it looks like it's like a Dr.
+
+[38:06] Seuss, like a truffula tree. Anyway. Uh the cheese, okay. Okay. We tried a smoked gouda and a pepper jack, cut into sticks and battered, ensuring full coating.
+
+[38:15] The cheese invariably disappeared, leaving only a thin melted layer stuck to the inside of the battered shell. The rest was hollow. Even cream cheese stuffed peppers with an open top had no problem. So it didn't seem as though simple moisture content was the issue. What gives, and are there other products you found surprisingly problematic in the fryer?
+
+[38:32] Good question. I too have had this uh problem. I think I mentioned last week that like the worst thing I've ever done was the falafel balls that just like blew themselves apart. So you have a couple of uh issues going on here. Most people, when they're breading and frying stuff, are are overheating their oil because they're doing it at home.
+
+[38:44] You're not overheating it because you're doing it in a real fryer, right? So they overheat their oil. So this the oil will get ruined very quickly, which yours won't. But on the flip side, their cheese sticks are only in the oil for like uh 30 seconds tops before they're all brown and starting to burn. So they can pull it out before the entire thing turns to a massive goo and sprays out.
+
+[39:07] In your case, that you probably have a more reasonable temperature of like 360, 350, 360. And if you're doing like chicken that hasn't been pre-cooked, sometimes even lower, like 330, 30 in this 330 in this area. Uh I, you know, I do, you know, anyway. So the point being that the longer the stuff's in the fryer, the more chance you have for a pin leak to happen in your coating, and then those kinds of cheeses will literally pump as opposed to cream cheese, which won't, will pump themselves out under the pressure of the um of the boiling water uh and steam will pump themselves out of the case and leave you with a kind of a hollow shell. And so I've literally done things like candy bars, uh, and I think I've done candy bars, uh, like ice creams, things like this, and you'll see them and you'll be like, it's perfect, it's perfect, it's perfect, and then you'll like at the last minute, you won't pull it out in time.
+
+[39:57] It'll blast a hole in the coating, and then it will pump all of it out into your oil like almost instantaneously because it's complete liquid on the inside. So I would just say uh take your cheese sticks, double dip them to make sure you've got a really good coating on. Double dip, double dip. In fact, I saw uh a lady on the internet who wrapped a wonton skin around her uh around her cheesestick. What do you think about that?
+
+[40:19] That's weird, huh? Wonton stick. I think it might be too hard. Anyway, double dip and freeze those suckers for a while so that the outside, not for a long time, don't freeze them all the way through, but freeze them so the outside's really, really cold. There's not a lot of water, not that much water in the breading.
+
+[40:34] It'll come up to temperature and brown fast enough, and you might be able to get the thing out and do leave them in for the minimum amount of time possible. And uh, you know, that's kind of what I would say about that. What do you think, S. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[40:45] Anyway, let us know how it works. Um here we go. We get we got a we got a uh okay. Thanks for keeping me company on my commute every day. You guys are awesome.
+
+[40:54] I've got another technical question, but this one doesn't involve uh Sabbath or Jewish holidays. And uh this is from um this is from uh oh my god, my brain. From uh David uh Statman, aka a Jews Boosh. Stas likes that. I Stas put an I like face on with uh with that uh Twitter handle.
+
+[41:13] Um anyway, he thinks that that uh I'd make a good Talmudic rabbi. What do you think, Stuz? Yeah. Yeah? Because I'm so well why?
+
+[41:20] Because like because I like to analyze everything. That's what Stuzz hates about me the most. I'm researching how I can use a CO2 tank to charge my whipping siphon for carbonation of liquids, alcohol, fruit, etc., instead of using CO2 cartridges. What pressure should I set the regulator for for equal charging with one or two CO2 charges? And consequently, would I need a regulator uh for carbonating beer or the higher pressure soda fountain regulator?
+
+[41:43] Always get the higher pressure one, by the way. Just look right up. I'm just gonna say this to anyone, anyone who's asking, unless all you're doing is beer in a restaurant, get the freaking higher pressure one, please. Don't ever but why would you want to limit yourself? It's not more money, right, Stas?
+
+[41:57] Stas is like, I don't care. I'm just gonna shake my head so Dave stops looking at me. Uh here's more information I've collected on the setups and pressures, including information from uh EC customer service, which you know, ignore. I plan on making a barb fitting like this guy didn't, and so you don't you can't see what this guy is because you're on the you're you know, this is you know not a visual medium. But what this guy did was he took a hose barb.
+
+[42:17] Uh so for those of you not familiar, what we're talking about is whipped cream makers uh that uh EC makes, and uh you you screw those little cartridges of CO2 in, right? And it punctures, there's a little needle and a rubber gasket that you push the uh that you screw the cartridge into, it punctures the cartridge, the gasket seals it such that all of the pressure from the CO2 cartridge gets directed into the whipper. That's how it works. So what this it's rather clever actually person did was they took uh like a hose barb fitting, looks like it's about a quarter of an inch hose barb fitting, attached it to their CO2 line with a uh with a little uh ball valve, and you just push it onto the gasket so it seals, and then you let the the pressure into the into the thing. That's what it looks like they're doing.
+
+[43:02] Um so yeah, it's kind of clever. Like when I did it, I uh when I built it, obviously when I built my uh attachment to my EC, it was like considerably more complicated. I machined a uh mating piece to go onto the um to go on to that thing, which is really complicated. But what my system, what this system does is it acts just like a the CO2 cartridge that you get when you put it in. In other words, you inject a certain amount of pressure and then you pull it away.
+
+[43:32] You can't inject, and that's the amount of gas that's in your product. This is the key, by the way. Um well, let me finish the question. So the guy in the above reference link, which you don't have because you can't see me, uh carbonates at 140 pounds per square inch. I inquire from EC directly about the regular operating pressure of their siphons, and I've repeated their uh response, etc.
+
+[43:51] etc. Uh, and referring to N2O whipping siphons, Chris Young said in the comments on a Chef Steps uh infusion process that one is unlikely to achieve pressures of over 80 psi in the whipping siphon. That's not true. Uh listen listen, uh forget forget what anyone told you. Forget what EC told you.
+
+[44:08] Forget what anyone told you. What's happening to you is you're clouding your mind. Think about this. You're gonna completely erase anything that you've thought and think about how carbonation works. You're dealing with three very different ways of carbonating, and the confusion that you're having is trying to operate between those different ways of carbonating.
+
+[44:32] One, the way I carbonate, I have my gas tank, my CO2 tank, in always connected to my product as I'm carbonating. So I choose a pressure, right? And typically for cocktails, it's 45 pounds per square inch. I choose a pressure, right? And then I attach, uh I put CO2 at that pressure onto my uh product and I agitate it violently.
+
+[44:56] As I'm agitating, more gas is supplied from my tank into the bottle until the pressure on the inside of the liquid, uh there's enough CO2 on the inside of liquid to counterbalance uh that 45 psi and no more gas is supplied because it's relatively inequilibrium, right? So I can pressure, I can carbonate at a low pressure, and I get a very consistent, very consistent result. Why? Because the only variable that is really changing is the temperature uh and the composition of the liquid. So as long as my liquid is cold enough, then I know I'm gonna get the same result all the time.
+
+[45:34] Even if I have if I have a little bit in the bottle, I'm gonna get the same result as if I have a lot in the bottle. Because I keep supplying gas at that same pressure until I reach relatively until I reach equilibrium, right? And I can vent in between and I can keep doing it over and over, very repeatable results. Okay. The way that uh EC does it, right, is they sell you seven and a half gram carbon dioxide cartridges.
+
+[46:00] It pumps the entire seven and a half gram cartridge into your uh whipping siphon, right? And then the pressures become whatever the pressures become, right? And it depends on a lot of things. It depends on how much liquid is in, what the composition of the liquid is that's in it, and um the temperature involved. So uh, right, and now there's a third way of doing it, right?
+
+[46:24] And because uh what remember what EC is doing is putting a fixed weight of CO2 into your uh into your thing. When you move to a tank with this fitting that you're gonna make, this hose barb fitting that you're gonna make, you're doing neither of those two things. You are injecting a s a specific weight of CO2, but based solely on the pressure of the CO2 that you're putting in and the um amount of head space that you have. So with EC, it's a fixed weight. With you, the weight is dependent on the head space and the pressure.
+
+[46:59] Confusing enough so far, Stuzz? Yeah. Yeah, super confusing, right? So but this is why everyone gets all this stuff wrong. Because you have to think about exactly what you're doing.
+
+[47:09] I will just give you some numbers to make this clear. Now it's gonna apologize, it's gonna be a headache for anyone that doesn't care about it. But look at this. A 500 milliliter EC uh whipped cream maker, right? Holds 500 milliliters, and this chart's in my book, so you can look at it later if you want.
+
+[47:26] 500 milliliters of liquid, right, and has 272 milliliters of head space, meaning it's blank space. When you inject the seven and a half grams of CO2 into that, right? Into water there, the pressure is 197 PSI. These numbers were I they did them in front of me when I was in Austria at EC at their factory where they had uh a head with a gauge on it, right? 197 PSI, that's 13.6 bar for all you Euro folks, right?
+
+[47:54] Uh now, when you shake it, right? That at with if this is with 20 degrees Celsius water, right? So it doesn't absorb that much CO2, it goes down to 119 Psi, which is 8.2 bar. That's one charger. Now, look at look at what we're looking for saying.
+
+[48:07] I did some calculations. I went online, use what's called an ideal gas calculator where I determined exactly what was going on. What that pressure means in that head space is that 6.67 grams of that seven of that 7.5 grams of CO2 is in the head space. Less than one gram of that CO2 is actually in the liquid in that point. And what that means is pretty much 100% of the CO2 that you inject, if you're not shaking, is right in that head space.
+
+[48:36] And remember, the way that you're gonna put CO2 in, you are not going to shake it while it's under pressure. And what that means is is that you're limited with the pressure on how much is CO2 you can inject into your head space. Does this make any sense to us? The good news is is that uh you don't need to have a super high uh pressure, but you might need to keep re-injecting CO2 into the head space over and over and over and over again, right? Um I'll give you another example.
+
+[49:08] So if you were to do uh 100 milliliters, right? Uh uh sorry, if you had a uh a one-liter whipper and you put uh a full liter into it, there's still only 262 milliliters of headspace in that in that whipper, you're gonna get the same, roughly 200 psi in the head space because not that much is is going into the water, right? When you shake it, the psi drops to a lot lower to 77 psi, because you have a lot more uh liquid in there. Now, if you were to use uh ethanol, pure almost ethanol, right? You get the same about you know, it's only 15% lower.
+
+[49:38] You get about 170 psi in that thing before and when you shake it, the pressure's over three times lower because it's absorbing so much more uh um uh CO2. So what you're gonna want to do is just choose a pressure. You want to choose 140, choose 140, right? The more head space you put in, the more CO2 you're gonna inject, right? So uh if you were to do 140 psi, you're gonna put 4.7 grams of CO2 into a heads into the headspace of an EC if it's full at capacity, right?
+
+[50:06] If you were to reduce it, let's say you were to increase the head capacity to uh 500 mils instead of 270 or 250, you'll double the amount of CO2 that's in that headspace, right? So you can you can do that. But let's say you were to you so confusing, I'm sorry. But like what you should probably do is just keep testing, and when you see what you like, weigh the damn thing and figure out how many grams of CO2 you have in it. That's what I would do.
+
+[50:33] Weigh it. Figure out how many grams. A volume of CO2 is two grams per liter. This is not including the headspace. You have to calculate how much.
+
+[50:41] And so if you did 140 psi and you fill it all the way to the top, you know that the headspace contains 4.7 grams. Then, if you have, for instance, a liter bottle and you have a liter in there, you're gonna want about four volumes of CO2 to have a really strong carbonation. Four volumes of CO2 is eight grams per liter, and so uh you're gonna want eight plus four point seven, twelve point seven grams heavier than it is when you started, and that should give you the good answer. What do you think? Does that make any damn sense?
+
+[51:09] Does anyone is this one making any damn sense at all? Do we have 30 seconds? No. 30 seconds. All right.
+
+[51:15] Uh Brandon Hodgkin wrote in he wants to make some bacon popcorn. Want to know if you have any tips on how to make the bacon bits adhere to the popcorn so the bits don't end up all on the bottom. I was considering using Nsorbit mixed with bacon renderings to make a bacon powder for added bacon flavor. Do you think that would work well? Yeah, here's what you want to do.
+
+[51:29] Make sure you get like a Benton's bacon, something with very heavy smoke because it's going to have a lot more smoke. When you're using the endsorbit, remember the enemy of Ensorbit is um is liquids. So what you should do is render your bacon out in the oven, right? Save the fat, right? Take the things that are rendered, render them long and low so that you're not burning it.
+
+[51:48] You can then dehydrate the bacon further. You can blitz the endsorbit with the fat and the bacon solids as long as there's enough ensorbit in there to not let the oil uh go out and ruin the powderiness of it, right? That's gonna what'll gum it up. So you could actually blitz the bacon and the ensorbit together so that you have a lot stronger bacon fave uh flavor that should coat the thing. Remember also you need some liquid oil to get the adhesion, but I'm assuming that you're popping this in the rendered bacon fat anyway, because otherwise why would you air pop bacon popcorn and then make it bacon flavored?
+
+[52:21] That makes no sense, does it, Stuzz? Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[52:48] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Foods. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:26] Hello and welcome to Cooking Youth. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live almost at 12 on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[0:42] Good. Yeah, we got Jack Jackie Molecules in the engineering booth. What's up? We got ice cream sandwiches on the way. Sandges, we also uh I think David's over there in the middle of the floor.
+
+[0:51] Oh, did somebody say sandwiches? Yes. Well, we also have we also have Peter. Peter the Kim, Kim Master, Kim Wipe, the Captain Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink here for all of your food and drink. What's a Kim wipe?
+
+[1:05] A Kim Wipe is uh the laboratory version of Kimball and Clark Kleenexes that are used in laboratory environments. Kim Wipe. Yeah. Yeah. And uh Peter Kim just crossed the line, as usual, habitual line stepper and made an obscene gesture in front of the fellow who luckily is texting eating his pizza.
+
+[1:23] Oh man. Is there anything more depressing than a dude chugging a glass of red wine by himself with a pizza texting? It's like if you're just having the glass of red wine and the pizza. If it maybe if it were like seven o'clock, it'd be a little more for you. It's it's noon on a Tuesday.
+
+[1:39] It sounds like uh like a Billy Joel song. It's noon on a Tuesday. You should rewrite that. It's not it's not uh five o'clock on a Saturday. Whatever what was it?
+
+[1:48] I'm texting alone. Yeah. Peter Peter's using his uh flamenco skills. But many of you might not know because Nastasia, while she loves to share other people's personal information on the on the radio program, uh doesn't share her own. It was her birthday yesterday.
+
+[2:01] No, it was a Sunday. Same. So Booker. Every year. Oh, so you don't want this stuff.
+
+[2:07] That's from Booker, not from you. You don't want the stuff I got you? Okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh.
+
+[2:12] So Booker, Booker wanted to get her Sour Patch Kiss, which then Dax wanted it on the action, so thank you. And then you know, Nastasia and I, our favorite um shopping area is the as scene on TV section of the local CVS. Well, Nastasia goes to CVS because it has close proximity to her. I go to a right aid because uh You know that Dad mentioned this already, the new Rite Aid, like the Right Aid, they've gone um, their buyers aren't local. I didn't buy this don't worry, but the they're like the in there's an entire section of garden tools in the in the lower Manhattan, like lower east side right aid.
+
+[2:50] There's a whole section of garden tools and like hose accessories for your pocket hose. Don't get me started. There's like a there's like a it's called a hose holder. Like yeah, yes, habitual line stepper, Peter. But I was like, who the hell's gonna like we're not in fancy parts of Manhattan like Nastasia, who's part of a community garden.
+
+[3:06] Ain't nobody needing hose hose implements, right? Actual garden hose implements down in in my neighborhood. But I saw something that actually I've always wanted to buy because it horrifies me, but I can't buy it for my own use, so I got it for Nastasia, and we'll talk about it. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, tell them what it is, what is it?
+
+[3:26] It's the dump meal cookbook. I have got I purchased Nastasia, the dump meal cookbook. And luckily, luckily, folks, in that same section, because I know that Nastasia Lopez does not have a crock pot. Hold on a second. Oh no.
+
+[3:40] Oh. A New York apartment sized. Proctor Silex test improving. Oh my gosh. Right aid bought crock pot.
+
+[3:44] Oh my god. Perfect for two for you and Mark Stars. So like I want you like, well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:57] Yeah. So uh, you know, I think that like, and we'll see what the people in the chat room think. But so do the idea of dump meal, dump, dump meal. What's the lady's name who wrote dump meals? Kathy Mitchell.
+
+[4:08] Kathy Mitchell, author of Dump Meal, also had the uh other cookbook, Dump Cakes, dump. Like we gotta get her on the show. Yeah, so my point is that like it's kind of a horrifying concept. Buy buy like three cans of this and like a hunk of that, throw it in the crock pot, walk away, and then when you get home from work, you have a meal, right? I'm gonna try it.
+
+[4:26] So anyway, so I think that people might enjoy Nastasia highlighting a recipe maybe like once a week or something, making it like actually trying to eat it Nastasia Lopez style, then come and breaking down the dump meal for us. I mean, maybe look, maybe in fact I know this lady is making more money than we're ever gonna make on anything that we do with the dump meals, and you know, like, so why are we worried about like all like we're all worried about little nuances of flavor and production and stuff? It's like no. Have you had an idea as good as dump meals? Uh no, no.
+
+[4:55] Uh no, apparently I have not. Apparently I have not. The dump meal. So see uh maybe you can look through here while we're talking. Yeah, but no, you won't because you hate cumin.
+
+[5:06] Two bean chili. I thought when you give a number like that, it has to be an odd number. She has a two bean chili in there? Yeah, it's a two bean. Come on, there's no such thing as a two bean chili.
+
+[5:14] Three five seven, you know, or something. Yeah, how many beans in the salad? It's never like a two bean bean. No, four mean? No.
+
+[5:24] It's an odd number. Odd number of beans. This is like Peter. Same with beans and grains. Really?
+
+[5:29] Grains as well? Yeah, multi-grain bread. You have 11 grain, 13 grain, nine-grain, never like six grain. It's true. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[5:35] You know, but uh sometimes, in other words, like if you only had two grains in it, you just wouldn't call it out. No, of course. You would multi-grain, maybe. Right. Yeah.
+
+[5:44] No one has like duo grain. So here's one spicy orange chicken nuggets. So you put it all in the crock pot. Frozen popcorn chicken bites. Oh, teriyaki marinade.
+
+[5:54] Oh my god. Uh three quarter three-fourth cup orange juice concentrate. Uh some orange marmalade, sriracha, and orange peel. Orange peel? Why are you going all fancy on me?
+
+[6:04] All of a sudden now you can. That's as optional. We have a few things happening here. There's an ice cream sandwich delivery that just happened. And I also have Don Lee on the phone.
+
+[6:13] Oh, all right. We'll take some Don Lee while we're uh while we're getting the ice cream ready. All right, Don Lee, you're on the air. How's it going, Dave? Going all right, going a little better now that Nastasia's cooking up something in the dump in the in the dump pot.
+
+[6:27] Well, speaking of speaking of bad business plans, I've got a business proposition for you that is worse than your deli belly plan. Oh, dude. Have I ever spoken about Deli Belly on air? Is anyone remember whether I was spoken about Deli Belly in air? Okay, okay.
+
+[6:41] For those of you who don't know, the idea is we go to places where there might be stuff in the local water that gives you severe gastrointestinal distress. We ship the water here to your locale and serve it to you in the comfort of your own home so that you can, you know, wrangle out your issues with your own toilet and your own doctor and then go travel with the impunity. That's the Deli Belly horrible, horrible, terrible idea. Alright, go. So we take this to the next logical conclusion.
+
+[7:06] Why get sick? Why not just have a fecal transplant? I call it super poop. Super poop. Well, uh, have you read Mary Roach's excellent book, uh, Gulp?
+
+[7:17] Yep. Yeah. So in there she discusses uh Mary Roach, excellent author, by the way. Her books are phenomenal. She's a very funny writer, uh, on science topics.
+
+[7:26] Discusses uh poop transplants, and that fits in Peter quite well with your farm to toilet kind of uh thinking for the museum. But you really so you actually want to make a business of this? Don't you still need to get people sick before you I think you need to take one for the team, go everywhere, drink all the tap water everywhere, and create the ideal flora fauna in your system, and then market your poop as the super poop. Wow. That is so hardcore.
+
+[7:55] Like uh that might be the grossest thing we've ever discussed. Yep. Do we have a do you have a bell for the grossest thing ever discussed on? I don't think I have a bell for that. I don't know.
+
+[8:04] Like a gross bell? I'm like, Wow. I just have this. Is there such a thing, Jack? Is there such a thing, Jack, as a sad cowbell?
+
+[8:15] A sad cowbell? I don't know. I'm trying to imagine what a sad cowbell it's. Let's see. Let's see if I can do it.
+
+[8:22] No. So it's still too still too like it needs to be like uh like muted somehow. Yeah. We'll work on it. We'll work on the sad cowbell for you.
+
+[8:35] Yeah, it's kind of juicy. That fits super poop. That's what you would say. That's more like a bowel movement, yeah. All right.
+
+[8:41] All right, Don. You got anything else for us? Otherwise, I gotta go eat some ice cream sandwiches. Uh I just want to do a quick rant to say that I'm really mad at uh all this native advertising I'm seeing. I just found out that uh Hellman's Mayo has uh trademarked the term strange witch and is getting celebrities to talk about weird sandwiches.
+
+[9:00] What? Hashtag strange witch. Wait, what? First of all, what the hell is a strange witch? Any sandwich that's odd?
+
+[9:08] Apparently. Do you put money? Do you put mayonnaise do you put mayonnaise on a Cuban sandwich? I I didn't know that that was a thing, and then I heard some people like, no, you gotta put you gotta put mayonnaise on a Cuban. What are your thoughts, guys?
+
+[9:20] Mayonnaise on a Cuban? Nope. I don't know. No? No.
+
+[9:23] I like standard. I like mayonnaise uh quite a bit. Uh I I I uh from time to time will purchase the Hellman's, which is uh known as um uh Best Foods mayonnaise for those of you who are west of the Rockies. Uh I think it's just west of the Rockies. Um yeah, I don't know.
+
+[9:40] I don't know what I think about that. I don't think sandwiches should be strange. I think sandwiches should be delicious. That's my feeling. Uh Twitter for strange you'll see a lot of advertising.
+
+[9:52] Most recently, uh Patrick Harris just posted some love guy, but why is he chilling for Helmans? I don't know. I like Neil Patrick Harris as well, so I'm gonna assume that he just likes the product. I will I will do some research Don on Neil Patrick Harris's uh sandwiching uh sandwiching stuff, but in my mind, uh Doogie Howser can do no wrong. I mean, from Doogie Houser to Starship Troopers, you guys are Neil Neil Patrick's.
+
+[10:14] No, you want to hear this strange witch he made? All right. Hellman's peppers, garlic, thyme, allspice, and coconut. Yeah, uh that's first of all, what kind of peppers? Well, first of all, what kind of peppers?
+
+[10:23] Does it matter? I mean it's kind of like a neut? What are we talking here? I can't think of any uh combination of those peppermint. I mean, think about you use that all the time in savory, right?
+
+[10:34] So what do we got here? What kind of peppers? I don't know. It's also worse than that. It's not bread.
+
+[10:38] It's on toastones. Oh, yeah, that's a bad idea. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a good idea. I mean, who knows?
+
+[10:45] Maybe it tastes good. Not a sandwich. Toastone is not a toastone is not sandwiched sized. It's a cracker sized. Peter, do you consider something between two pieces of cracker a sandwich?
+
+[10:55] You don't want to give me started on this, but uh no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't either. I don't either.
+
+[11:02] Yeah. No. So are we adding leavening to the sandwiched. It is Oh, that's very strong. What are your feelings on do you require leavening for a sandwich?
+
+[11:13] I think there's a continuum, and I would say leavening puts it in a more sure camp of being a sandwich. Right. So in other words, there's a gray area of the side. Matzah. Yeah, but they didn't have time to make a sandwich.
+
+[11:30] They're running through the desert trying to escape. They didn't have time to make a sandwich. They didn't have they didn't have time to make bread. So it's easier to eat in the desert while running from the Egyptians. And you deny them their own.
+
+[11:45] I don't know. They they had to bake the bread within like 10 minutes of the water hitting the flour. They're not gonna have time to sit there and slice the pickles and put on the mayonnaise and all that other stuff. You know what I mean? I think you're like you're out, you know.
+
+[11:57] You're supposed to be if it's affliction, you're like sandwiches like a height of delicious, right? So like if it's supposed to be affliction, what the hell are you doing? You can't no, no, I mean, no, no. My point of view on the side. I like cream cheese on a matzo, though.
+
+[12:09] If you have unleavened bread, but it's but the shape of the way you're structuring this thing is actually a sandwich, like a slice of unleavened bread and then stuff that you would normally put in a sandwich and then a slice of unleavened bread on top. That could qualify as a sandwich. However, the other, but if it's wrapped around it, then I think you're starting to move into more like breeding. Here's another thing. Here's another thing I'm gonna add, right?
+
+[12:27] Like whether or not something is technically a sandwich is kind of mood. By the way, we need to get these ice cream sandwiches that are gonna go. But the the point is is that there are sandwiches that maybe are sandwiches, but they suck. And here's why. A sandwich, you should be able to pick it up, because remember, open face sandwiches are what?
+
+[12:41] Not sandwiches. Because they're literally not sandwiched. They are a layered pro it's topped. It's like I don't know. Uh point is is that you should be able to lift a sandwich in the air and take a bite out of it without the without it shattering into a billion pieces and raining down onto your lap.
+
+[12:57] So matza doesn't qualify. Matza is like a big piece of shatter. It's just you crush it and it shatters. Yeah. It's not right.
+
+[13:05] Matza, peanut butter, delicious. Peanut butter and jelly on a matzah, delicious, not a sandwich. Matza pizza, not pizza, delicious, not a sandwich. Even if you snap it in half. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:17] Anyway, that's my feeling. Alright. Alright, alright. Alright. So we have some uh we have some ice cream sandwiches here from uh Milk Cult, Milk Cult DC, which are we've uh been following them on Twitter for a long time.
+
+[13:33] We've I've never actually met them, I don't think. I've I've I was actually gonna be in DC on um on Friday. I was gonna maybe stop, but I'm this is a Ziploc bag, Nastasia. I think someone pilfered some of the sandwiches. These are was sent to the show because uh we did a uh a session where we'll let's see how many you can eat.
+
+[13:51] Uh all right. Yeah, now go. All right, let's see what you got here. I didn't realize I was gonna go into that I was young, by the way. My wife doesn't allow me to do that stuff anymore.
+
+[14:00] Vanilla chocolate chip. Yeah. Now, uh, Jack informs me that in the trip, and I can see they were slightly melted and remelted. I would say there was like a 35% melt happening, you know. 35% meltage?
+
+[14:13] Yeah, and then and then we you know threw them in the freezer. So they're yeah. Yeah. The wax crystal y then. A little bit, not like all the way, you know.
+
+[14:22] Peter's always got to hate Peter's you know, Peter is like a big ball of season. That's uh like yeah, Peter. You we told that story on the air, right? We were at somebody's uh where were we? We were in a some we were in somebody's like favorite restaurant.
+
+[14:37] Where's somebody's favorite? Somebody's favorite restaurant. I'm eating, so Nastasi, explain this. And uh some professors took us out to their favorite restaurant. They asked Peter what he thought of the food, and Peter said undercooked and overseasoned.
+
+[14:49] Overcooked and underseasoned. Oh so people can see what it looks like. Uh no, thanks, Dave. I don't want any ice cream sandwiches. Good, I'm glad you don't.
+
+[15:00] What do you got? That's a thing of ice cream. I just discovered something. It's hard to talk while you're eating an ice cream sandwich. Nastash, you're gonna have to talk for me.
+
+[15:10] Explain what you're taking out of here. I took out a tub of vanilla ice cream, and now I'm trying to separate other sandwiches. I think you're gonna be able to do it. It's coconut kefir. Oh.
+
+[15:17] Uh oh. Um I don't want to spoil my appetite. What really? You were mailing an ice cream sandwich from freaking Washington. You were gonna eat it.
+
+[15:28] Peter, what flavor do you have? I don't know what I don't know what flavor this is. And Nastashia said that she's got the best one, the least melted one, the one that was closest to the ice back. Vanilla too. No, I see vanilla beans, but it could be vanilla bean matter, of course, right?
+
+[15:42] Well. Why don't you explain that little bit of nanny poo to the audience while I'm finishing my sandwich? No, I mean a lot uh uh this Dave actually loves telling this story. It's really your story to tell, Dave, honestly. But uh apparently in a lot of vanilla ice.
+
+[15:55] Pretend you're Dave and say I've got a factory. Hello, this is Dave Arrow cooking issues, and I want to tell you about my story about vanilla bean matter and vanilla ice cream. So it turns out so it turns out that a lot of the the little black specks you see in vanilla ice cream are not really they don't serve any flavor purpose. They're just uh this stuff called vanilla bean matter, which is just this byproduct from processing vanilla that has zero flavor, but it just has the the little brown specks of of uh vanilla bean in it, and you can put it in ice cream to make it look like it has more vanilla in it. And apparently Dave went to a flavor house, was it Yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:34] In fact, and I don't know whether we want to call them out, but they're they're uh one of um the people who um helped us um on the exhibit. Well now he's eating a sandwich we're talking. And so like I went and took a big spoonful of this stuff out of the uh out of the barrel, and it basically just tastes like kind of like a little bit like a tea, like a little bit mildly vegetal. Yeah. Nastassi, even this has nothing to do with anything, so I'm not I've already plowed through one sandwich, by the way, so that's how long it takes me to finish one.
+
+[17:00] I keep going, so if I have to talk, I'll eat one another one during break, uh, and then we'll talk about it. But uh Nastasi, you're following this, it's kind of food related, this lemonade thing. Uh, Jack has, Jack has put you know, being a musical style person is uh is definitely following it. I mean, yeah. Wait, this is coconut?
+
+[17:18] No, not the one you have in your hand. No, that one. I would rather eat that. No, the the what? I would rather eat that.
+
+[17:23] The bucket? Mm-hmm. All right, jeez. Do you have a spoon? We can make that happen.
+
+[17:28] We're so demanding. We're so so demanding. Um, by the way, uh it one more note on the dump meals before we go. Oh can't take this lady anywhere. There it goes.
+
+[17:37] Uh one more uh note on the dump meals. This this uh woman, uh what's her name again? Do you remember? Kathy Mitchell. Kathy Mitchell has slow cooker recipes for pork tenderloin in it.
+
+[17:44] That's all. You see how hammered that thing is tenderloin's what I ate at that restaurant. Here's what that's your fault for ordering it, fool. But like the thing is is like I think at the end of a slow cooking a whole pork uh loin, right in the in the cooker. I think what you do is dump the sauce off, eat the sauce, and then use the pork loin as a brillo pad to scour out your uh slow cooker because that's that's about how useful it's gonna be at the end of the.
+
+[18:14] I use it as a puppet stone. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god, my uh my thing didn't modify. I don't have today's uh radio questions.
+
+[18:22] I'm gonna have to do it. I'm gonna have to do it by uh do you have the questions? There were just the one. No, there's two. Oh, the one I sent this one.
+
+[18:29] Yeah. What did you have about lemonade, Dave? Did you have something there or just wanted to know what you guys thought about it? I know Nastasia follows Beyonce and and Jay Z and uh you know Yeah, Stas, you're into that? No.
+
+[18:40] That's a lie. Like on Instagram, I do not. Oh, no, I mean in real life, you follow her, like you're like somewhere I was anyway. I had an issue because somebody I heard somebody the other day was like, yeah, Beyonce is like the new prince. I'm like, yeah, after she maybe if she learned how to play ten instruments.
+
+[18:59] Wow. Wow. I mean, come on. Yeah, this is the first episode we had after Prince. I couldn't believe that happened.
+
+[19:06] What's your favorite print song, Jack? Whoa, that's a tough question. Uh I've been listening to a lot of more stay in the time for the past week, actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:13] Uh what's the song? Uh 777 9311. I don't know if you know that one. That's good stuff. I'm a fan of uh House Quake.
+
+[19:21] You know that song? Yeah, that's good. I like House Quake, and I like the black album because I remember back when I in the in the 80s when I was in high school, we went, I think it was the 80s. Yeah. We went down to St.
+
+[19:30] Mark's place. There used to be a place that sold bootleg cassettes on St. Mark's and bootleg actually LPs. Oh, right. Uh I don't even remember the name of it.
+
+[19:38] We always it's like it was upstairs. You know what I mean? And we would walk up the stairs to the like second floory shop, and it's all these bootlegs, and we were like, you know, kids, you're like, oh my god, it's illegal. Why is nobody busting these people? Ooh.
+
+[19:51] And you buy bootlegs, and uh, Prince had a whole and at the time this blew my freaking mind, right? Prince had a whole album, the black album, which he just never released. He did it, he finished it, compiled it, never released it. I think he later did actually, I think later it was officially released. It came out like a few years later.
+
+[20:06] Yeah, but like back then it was like the idea that like someone would compose a whole album and then just be like, nah, crap on it, and then not release it. Was like like and the so there's a song in there called Bob George that I listen to a lot. Nice. Bim, ch bim bim, bim, ch bimp, bim, bim, chh, bim. It's all this crazy.
+
+[20:22] You know that song? No. Bob. I think Prince single-handedly triggered my entry into puberty with the song Cream. Whoa.
+
+[20:30] That's way a lot of information while you're sitting there pounding ice cream sandwiches and making lewd gestures. That's a lewd gesture. Before he totally made a lewd gesture. There's no leot gesture. That's a lew gesture.
+
+[20:44] No, it's not a loot. It's a total loot gesture. Every day I have to deal with this people. Please. This man runs a food museum.
+
+[20:51] Can you believe it? All right. Hey, cooking issues gang. Good luck on the centrifuge. By the way, we have the what they hopefully last prototype rotor before we can uh like figure out and approve what's going on.
+
+[21:02] So it should be some updates soon. That's coming what, next week? Next week. I can start testing with it. Oh, I do not envy any of you that have to make items across intercontinental item manufacturing, is oh such a joy, right, Studs?
+
+[21:19] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good luck on the centrifuge. Uh I have my ducats ready to slap on the uh pre-order form. So my grocery store, so my this is now that here comes the question.
+
+[21:29] So my grocery store only sells cream in pints. And at the rate I go through it, I tend to only use half before it spoils. Any tip on how to keep cream fresher for longer or fresh for longer? I primarily use it uh for seasoning coffee, I guess lightning coffee. I would guess I would use about a quarter of a pint a week maximum.
+
+[21:47] So I need uh a pint of cream to last a month with quarter pint drawdowns. I've tried the room temperature stable mini have and halves, but the flavors overly cooked, caramelly, and not what I am going for. That's the gross. Stuff's straight gross. Gnarly.
+
+[22:00] Nasty. Fresh sweet cream flavor is the best. If there's nothing to be done, any recipe suggestions to use up the cream before it spoils every week or two. Thanks for the great content. Chris.
+
+[22:11] Oh, Chris, Chris, listen. Listen, first of all. Uh cream, at least in my supermarket, cream is actually uh vastly more expensive in the um pint and half pint uh things, and vastly cheaper in the full quart. So it's like you're paying only like if you're buying like a half pint to a quart, you're only paying double for the whole quart versus a half pint. Now, once you have a quart of cream on hand, right?
+
+[22:40] Then you can use some for your coffee, and then you can do all kinds of fantastic stuff with the rest. Butter, right? Making your own butter is fantastic it's delicious, it's rewarding. And you get the buttermilk for cooking with pancakes or whatever, muffins or whatever. I don't know what you cook.
+
+[22:55] Do you cook pancakes? Do you cook muffins? Any kind of baked good, right? The butter is delicious as butter, right? I don't bake with that butter, but that butter is great on bread and stuff like that.
+
+[23:06] If you have a kitchen eat, it's pretty easy to make. You just gotta remember when you're doing it, um, you want to uh coat the um you want to coat the put plastic wrap around the bowl so that you um put plastic wrap around the bowl because it's gonna spatter right as it goes, and use the um use the uh the cake mixing thing and not the balloon. The balloon is gonna become a kind of a I think don't I use that? Maybe I use the balloon. I think I use the cake because I think the balloon gets all nasty when the butter breaks and when it breaks and turns into a big ball.
+
+[23:36] Anyway, maybe I I can't remember. It's been a while. Uh try both. They should both work. Uh do it chilled that way.
+
+[23:42] Uh, another thing to do is whipped cream. Hello. Whipped cream is so freaking delicious. Who doesn't like whipped cream? Stas you like it?
+
+[23:51] Yeah. She's like, yeah, what am I? I'm not I'm not Satan. I know some people don't like whipped cream on things. Here's some things the whipped cream like whipped cream on ice cream, good.
+
+[24:00] People say, oh no, it's like it's like cream on cream. Yeah, good. You know what I mean? Whipped cream on cake, good. Whipped cream on I don't put whipped cream on my breakfast items.
+
+[24:11] Pancakes, oh, like pancakes. I don't. Yeah. It's not bad. I just don't do it.
+
+[24:17] I like whipped cream on cookies though, at nighttime. I like whipped cream on donuts at night time. Not in the morning. I like whipped cream on a spoon. I like whipped cream basically Dave Arnold's new children's book.
+
+[24:28] In any format. Now listen. Listen, listen, people, listen. If you're gonna make whipped cream at home, the the easiest way to do it is like uh spike it with some sugar that's gonna make it stay stable longer and put it in the E C canister under pressurization and it lasts a long time in the E C thing if you have a whipped cream uh siphon. And that's the easiest way to keep whip uh whipped cream around so it doesn't spoil, you don't have to re-whip it all the time because if you whip it and put it in a bowl, it doesn't last very long.
+
+[24:54] Now, another thing there are many different kinds of cream. You should look at the cream you're purchasing, okay? So the uh there is the best tasting cream by far is just regular pasteurized cream. But it's actually increasingly difficult. I mean, like well, I'm sure on pasteurized cream the best, right?
+
+[25:13] But uh of the stuff that you can normally buy, standard pasteurized cream is um the is the best tasting. But at least in the quart variety, which is the way that I buy stuff all the time, uh, you can't really get it because it doesn't last as long. Back, you know, if you work um a food service, you can get that kind and you go through it so it doesn't spoil. But when you're buying, and I I forgot, I didn't look at the small containers, but if you buy the quart sizes of of cream, fresh cream, uh they're a high temperature pasteurized, like uh you they're like ultra high temperature pasteurized cream, and they should last um uh a month. I looked it up, I I my my drop box didn't update uh so it didn't come through, but I think that those things will last a month, but now you have to go through a whole quart in a month instead of just uh how what do you what do you say, half pint or something like that?
+
+[25:57] Yeah. Yeah. Uh keep it in the back of your of your fridge and it should and it should go on. Now here's another thing. Uh you should start using cream in uh soups.
+
+[26:07] That is delicious. Yeah, that's good. Cream soups. And then people could be like, you're cooking with so much cream. Be like, shut up.
+
+[26:13] You're eating a whole thing of broccoli, it's a little cream in it. Suck it up. Right or wrong. Totally right. Totally right.
+
+[26:19] And then here's another fact. So there's a lot of argumentation. Argumentation? Argument. There's a lot of argument.
+
+[26:24] See, I hate that. Like I don't like the word utilize either. It's like a bunch of extra syllables. You know what, you know what a good way to say utilize is? Use.
+
+[26:30] Use. Use. Anyway. Jack, what are your feelings on that? Do you have any feelings?
+
+[26:29] On the use utilize debate? Yeah. Yeah, he'll go with use. You go use. Yeah.
+
+[26:38] Like Miley Carpenter, who's runs the Food Network magazine and is like, you know, the editor in the family, other than my wife who edits my books, obviously. My book. Is uh they that whole family hates uh the word utilize because it's just it's it it has no use. The word utilize has no use over the word use. Unless is there some is there some sort of like unless you literally mean I am taking something that was not a tool and turning it into a tool.
+
+[27:09] Yeah, that is a good use for that word. When does that come up? I'm utilizing my knowledge. No, you're using it. Yeah.
+
+[27:15] Anyway. Yeah, and that's a tool. Tool. I don't know. How would you use it in tool?
+
+[27:20] I wouldn't. I mean, I what we mean. Utilize a stick. I use I use a tool. I use I use a stick to beat you over the head.
+
+[27:26] Boom. Well. Beyonce uses a baseball bat to smash up that car. See? Doesn't utilize a baseball bat.
+
+[27:33] That's weak. Weak. Uh another one anyway. I'm not gonna get it. Later on, we can go into uh into uh magazine editors, uh grammatical uh pet peeves because they're kind of interesting.
+
+[27:44] Using using to from in things that aren't a range, hates that. Hates that. They have everything from chickens to French fries. And you're like, excuse me, not a range. Like what continuum has chicken on one side and French fries on the other?
+
+[27:59] It makes no freaking sense. You gotta have and they don't have everything anyway, you know. Well, that's how, you know. Anyway. So just stay away from those sorts of stay away from those sorts of statements.
+
+[28:09] How do we get into this? What are we talking about? I don't know. Now, cream. We're talking about cream whipped cream, whipped cream.
+
+[28:13] The problem with cream is that cream that you buy in the store, aside from whether how it's pasteurized, typically heavy cream, they know you're not going to use it very long, and they know you're going to use it for a lot of different things. They stabilize typically the hell out of it. So look at the box of cream on the side. And the stabilizers they use in the cream will radically change whether or not, and here's the important thing for you in particular for what you're doing whether or not the cream is a hundred percent freeze thaw stable. So cream, as it comes out of, well, after it separates, but cream as is given by the cow, right?
+
+[28:47] If you freeze it and then thaw it, the um ice crystals and so Harold McGee has a very good section on this in on food and cooking, where uh the as it freezes, the the butter fat will form kind of uh sharp butter fat crystals. The ice will f uh water will form ice crystals. These will mess with the fat uh globules. What are your thoughts on the word globule? Hate, hate, hate, globule, labule, the spores.
+
+[29:15] Right? Globules and spores. Like Nastasia, like this is like her skin is creeping. If you want Nastasia to have uh nightmares, send her pictures of like leaf fungi. Oh, I don't do that.
+
+[29:27] Uh yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not saying that the the viewers here, listeners don't want you to have nightmares. I'm not gonna do that to you. Uh do it, do it.
+
+[29:34] The um you also have a whole phobia. There's you know, people who like can't look at like lotus roots, for example. Is that like the grid of holes? You have that problem? Mm-hmm.
+
+[29:43] Really? Is it ever since you hit that pot hole and broken? Like tripe, for example, also things at home with tripe cheese. The problem with the problem with Swiss cheese? No, it's Swiss, so you like it.
+
+[29:52] No, that's not true. Swiss cheese is a little better. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[29:57] Because it's more like a crater. Yeah. Because you can see the bottom of the hole. Makes you itchy? Yeah, that's the thing.
+
+[30:04] People who have this whole phobia, they get all itchy when they see all these holes. This is a real thing. Yeah, I I guess so. Is there a word for it? Yeah.
+
+[30:13] Where did the hell does that come from? Does it come from watching too much of a shia of the book? There's some theory about tripophobia. Tripophobia? Like you're gonna trip into T R Y Phobia.
+
+[30:25] Oh, really? It could be tripe. I don't know. Tripophobia. My problem with tripe is uh is like it's delicious, but that smell is so indicative of like slaughterhouse smell.
+
+[30:35] You know what I mean? Anyway, until you totally process it. Whatever. Back to cream. So uh so if By the way, I love that we're talking about cream after I'm said cream, you know, prints.
+
+[30:47] Get on top of cream, yeah, yeah. She's Peter always has to take it in an inappropriate place. It's a family freaking show. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Hey Peter.
+
+[30:57] I got I got something for you that you'll appreciate coming up in a second here. Alright, hold a second. All right, so cream. So listen. So what happens when you freeze cream that hasn't been treated.
+
+[31:08] Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, you can keep talking, Dave. I love it. I love it.
+
+[31:15] This is we are more scattered than even normal on today's show. Dave is now the Dizza. Oh, you're more scattered than even more. No, we can't get sued. Oh, is that the amount you can do without getting sued?
+
+[31:29] Yeah. That's what I just said. I don't know. See, you've made that up. You don't know if we're gonna get seen.
+
+[31:33] That's right. I just started cranking into it. Anyway, whatever. I was gonna try to explain cream at that point. But look.
+
+[31:40] Uh so if you don't add any stabilizers or whatnot, uh the uh as I said, the butter fat will form little uh thingamajugers that ruin the fat globules, and the um ice crystals will do the same because they're sharp. And you can read about this in McGee's on food and cooking. And uh when you thaw the cream back out, probably won't break, but it it won't have a a lot of the same properties. I don't know about the whipping, I never tested, but I know that that that that kind of cream is not gonna be as heat stable as it was before, so you're gonna get a lot of fat separation, right? Um by the way, uh well I'll finish before but the um but luckily f unluckily for some people, luckily probably for you, most creams that you buy, again, I haven't looked at the small containers, but the large containers, the quartz, are heavily stabilized, right?
+
+[32:29] So I looked up two different ones on the web. I looked up or uh I don't have it in front of me, but uh so do it from memory, organic uh horizon uh brand. Theirs is stabilized with gel-an gum, right? And so what gell and gum does is is they're probably forming a very light um a very light fluid gel with it to keep it uh stabilized. But I'm sh I haven't tested that one for free sauce stability, but um that might uh increase the free saw stability.
+
+[32:56] It depends a lot, depends on which gel an they're using and like and uh what ratio they're they're they're using, because they don't say what kind of gel and they're using, whether they're using high acyl or low low high or low acyl gel and but then I looked at Lando Lakes, Lando Lakes uh cream and Lando Lakes cream has a shotgun spray of stuff in it to stabilize it. So it's got uh polysorbate eighty, which is an emulsifier. It's got mono and diglycerides, which is uh another emulsifier. Monodiglycerides, I used to use it more, I haven't used it in a long time. It's uh so uh yeah, triglyceride is a fat, right?
+
+[33:27] So it's uh you know it's got three fatty acids on a glycerin thing, and it uh if you break and it's obviously it's lipophilic, it it likes oil because it that is a fat, it's an oil. If you break off one of those fatty acids, right now you have a little bit of a water-loving portion on where the uh fatty acid was attached to the backbone, and that would be a diglyceride. Break off two fatty acids and you have two of those um uh water-liking areas, and so you get this what's called ampophilic molecule of monodiglyceride that they can do some emulsifying. It is very heavily balanced in the favor of fat though. So you have to dissolve mono and diglycerides and fat.
+
+[34:01] And you can do all sorts of fun stuff with it, like thicken fats or make fat foams or all kinds of other things. But anyway, so it's got mono and diglycerides in it, which is gonna increase, which is probably gonna increase its whipping ability, the cream, probably gonna help it on the freeze thaw. Um I don't know if the polysorbate 80 is helping on the freeze thaw or not. I'm assuming it is. It's another emulsifier.
+
+[34:19] I don't really know as much about the functionality of polysorbate 80 because I've never used it uh as a standalone ingredient. Uh but lastly and not leastly, it has uh carragenin in it, and carragenin uh all you know in these levels like it performs a stabilization um similar to what Gel An's performing in the other thing. It's long story short, is with that poop spray of uh stabilizers in it, I bet you you can freeze and thaw that Landolak's cream uh and use it without without issue. The issue without issue, I didn't then I say there's an issue. Uh the problem is it takes a long time typically to thaw these things out.
+
+[34:54] You want to exclude air. So um it depends on how your freezer works. Uh, but like a lot of times, even with liquids, I'll put uh liquids in uh freezer zippies, and then I'll I'll get the air out with the zippy and I'll throw the zippies in because they freeze very quickly. And it's have you noticed, Stas, recently, that um some ziplocks are crappy? Mm-hmm.
+
+[35:16] I just noticed this recently. Like no, no, on honest to God Ziploc. I've had uh a couple side seals go bad on me. Remember were those brand ziplocks that time that we did the uh the um uh blender drinks with the uh I don't and remember we got Oh, they weren't, they were off brand. The the where they I've been having problems is uh the double seal on the top, you turn it on the side and it forms a little spout and it pours a little bit of liquid out of that top.
+
+[35:43] So always invert your ziplocks after you uh seal them to make sure that you don't have a good seal. Anyway, exclude the air, ziploc label. They freeze quickly that way and they thaw very quickly that way. So you can just put it in cold water running in the sink and thaw it out in a couple of minutes because if you just take a quart of cream and put it in your fridge to try and thaw it, good freaking luck. You know what I mean?
+
+[36:03] It's gonna take uh forever. Another thing I've noticed is that when you're thawing um when you're using um uh milk, or it I have this situation where I put milk that was already expired in a fridge, closed the fridge, went back a week later, and it was fine because the fridge hadn't opened or closed at all. So if you can keep your mil milk and dairy in the absolute coldest part of your fridge so that it's not uh going through a lot of temperature fluctuations, it will last a lot, lot, lot longer. That's another uh another point. Um I had another point on cream, but I don't know.
+
+[36:34] Should we go to a break? Maybe I can think about it. Yeah, and then I got a question for Peter that he can mull over uh the break. All right, so give me another one. Oh, not that soft.
+
+[36:57] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information, and digital coupons. Or visit Whole Foodsmarket.com to find the store closest to you. All right, before we come back, another thank you to Christopher Tompkins Tinch who donated on behalf of Cooking Issues. There are a bunch more donations that came in.
+
+[37:34] I gotta go through the backlog, but uh really appreciate that, everybody. And we're back. All right, so Dave is right now racing to see how fast he can eat a ice cream sandwich. Uh anyway, so we had a question about Mofad and sustainability, and yes, I mean, in uh, in short, sustainability is is right at the heart of what we're trying to uh do at MoFad. And I think the big challenge for us is that so far we've only been able to take on one exhibition at a time.
+
+[38:05] And the first thing we did was the puffing gun exhibit, which traveled around and looked at the story of breakfast cereal. And the exhibition we have up now is on the flavor industry. And so we've really only been able, and the way we approach things is we like to do take on really narrow stories and do a deep dive. And so we haven't had a chance yet to do an exhibition that looks at sustainability in uh in a big way, but we've been taking it on in our programs, and so we've done programs uh we did something with slow food, for example, where we looked at some endangered uh food species and highlighted them. And uh so yeah, I mean, that's stuff that's all incredibly important for us, and that's gonna come up in an exhibition very soon.
+
+[38:41] Peter, you got so political there, I like it. Yeah. It was good. I mean, no, it's serious. That's how you can tell you.
+
+[38:44] It's really serious. No, Antoine, so Antoine Dave, and then maybe we could take this later, but Antoine elaborated and he's like, Oh, can the Dave Dave and the crew in the chat room comment on interesting innovations in sustainability for avoiding food waste upcycling and repurposing, like making shrubs out of spent fruit or produce. Oh, shrubs. Yeah. I'm like, plants?
+
+[39:05] What are you talking about? Like shrubs like like uh drinks. Yeah. Oh. Uh speaking of shrubs, uh, another thing you can do with cream.
+
+[39:12] Uh just came up with a recipe uh last week for stabilized cream syrup to use in uh cocktails like grasshoppers, where it doesn't break no matter what you do to it. So you just add sugar to the cream, not a full simple syrup. I I gotta get the ratios. I I calculated it at the bar, but you uh you you sugar it, I think it was like 30% by weight or something. I gotta go look it up, and then you add a little acid to pre-break the uh the milk proteins a little bit.
+
+[39:39] It thickens quite a bit, but it is stable as the day is long in a drink. And it is good. We're gonna be putting cream issues. Cream issues. Dave Arnold.
+
+[39:47] Is it creaming issues? Uh creaming is not a gross word. It's a technical freak and dairy term. Jerks, uh jerk. Jerk.
+
+[39:56] So how how quickly do you eat that uh ice cream sandwich? So, first of all, uh the question is how how fast, how quickly can I eat a milk cut cult DC uh uh ice cream sandwich while still enjoying it and making fun of Peter while he's talking on the microphone? And the answer is forty-five seconds. So I can I can eat one in forty-five seconds, still enjoy it, so I'm not like pushing it into my face at the fastest rate possible, and make fun of Peter while he's talking in forty-five seconds. Very impressive.
+
+[40:25] I mean, a shadow, a shadow of my former self. Shadow. Were you there at the uh at the uh French culinary hot dog eating contest? So they had a hot dog eating contest. And uh he did it in uh and at the time I was like smaller even than I did, but he did it in a lucha libre mask.
+
+[40:43] Yeah, El Santo. Yeah. But I had to, I had like like like Rocky style, I had to cut the mouth hole because the mouth hole wasn't big enough to shove the hot dogs in, so I had to cut the corners of the mouth hole. And like creepy. All these big guys were like, yeah, whatever.
+
+[40:57] I I hosed them. I like just ripped them. I went full Kobayashi. You know what I mean? The squeeze and dunk.
+
+[41:03] Squeeze, dunk, break, smash into face. I remember you telling me about in high school how you used to drink whole two liters of soda at the supermarket to be able to just hand the bottle back and get your deposit money. I'm cheap. Oh my god. I can drink a whole two liters.
+
+[41:19] How recently was that? That was no, I was in high school, man. I had no I had no money. So like, you know, you were I was at a summer program, and like, you know, the the fifty dollars I had was the fifty dollars I had. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:30] And so like, you know, after and I don't drink flat water, it's disgusting. I think I mentioned this. I I at the time I was drinking diet soda, so I didn't want to pay them their deposit, so I handed them the money, they took the deposit, I drank the entire two-liter in front of them, put it back down onto the counter, and got my money back. Wow. That's because that's how cheap I am.
+
+[41:51] But I I can't imagine you actually enjoyed that entire two liters. That's where you're wrong. I am the utility monster. I enjoy. I enjoy down to the bitter end.
+
+[42:00] I told you. Well, you weren't here. Uh but the the you know, the uh certain things. I've never like I can't have another. Like I could have I won't eat another ice cream sandwich now because it's like I'm older now and it's gross, and I've had two already, but uh it's not I'm not not eating the next one because I wouldn't enjoy it.
+
+[42:18] You know what I mean? Thank you by the way to Milk Cult DC for the uh sandwiches. Um's the ice cream ice cream. I don't like it very much. Why?
+
+[42:28] Because it tastes like um lemongrass. Oh, and you hate Asian. She hates lemongrass. It tastes like Asian. Well, for yeah, for those of you that don't know, Peter Kim is uh of the Asian persuasion.
+
+[42:41] I like him. Also, I'm having a slight breakdown right now. What do you mean? Because I looked up Tripophobia, and the first thing that comes up is just freaking photos and like inside right now. Oh my god, I can tell you're actually like scratching yourself.
+
+[42:54] Oh, she is she is not. She is scratching herself. Ooh, it's not a good Google search, I will say. Please don't send Nastasia Lopez crazy. Having a visible reaction to it.
+
+[43:07] That's crazy. I mean, it's a rough search. I don't know why you did that to yourself. I wanted to see what remedies there were. And then of course the first thing just like boom.
+
+[43:15] Yeah. Oh well, so the remedy apparently is not total immersion. Say here's the remedy. Boom. Yeah, all right.
+
+[43:24] So uh we had this in from uh John uh Vermylin who uh about actually we have an invite to go visit, he has a pasta factory. Nice. He didn't mention the name of it. I looked it up, but I'm not gonna mention it because he didn't mention it, maybe he doesn't want me to mention it on the they're like they do a lot of contract uh work. They make lots of funny shapes.
+
+[43:41] They make like uh the little pizza pizza wedge shapes. What are your thoughts on funny shaped pasta? I don't like it very much. What about for kids though? It's bad.
+
+[43:50] Like what it's bad. I think sh like. All regular pasta shapes are funny shapes though. Like, what do you what are your feelings on pre-stranglers? Strotto pretti.
+
+[43:58] I like those. Do you like it because it contains the word strangle or do you actually like the texture? No, I like the texture. Yeah? But you think the funny shapes are not texturally involved.
+
+[44:06] They're just they're just pictures. Yeah, and they usually break. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's because people overcook them.
+
+[44:12] You know what else I saw? Because they're selling to uh commercial establishments, one of the things they sell is heavy wall pasta for retort applications. And I was like, because we've had actually people wonder about like, you know, how to put uh pasta into soups and stuff here. And it's like, well, the pros, I guess, buy heavy walled pasta for retort applications. We said use like ores.
+
+[44:32] Are you getting better? Yeah. You're recovering? Mm-hmm. I think I'm tryptophobic now after looking at that stuff.
+
+[44:36] That's bad. I have no idea no reaction to it. Really? Nastasia is like like some sort of chipmunk, like wiping her face off. As though there's a hole on her face that she can wipe off.
+
+[44:50] Yeah, this is crazy. I yeah, I've never seen such a reaction before. It's so gross to me, and I can't move. So that's I actually I actually feel bad for Nastasia now. And that never.
+
+[45:05] Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's you know it's bad if I feel bad. It's true.
+
+[45:09] Uh I've been catching up on some cooking issue shows. Uh in the January 26th show, you mentioned a pest control fumigant. What about that word? Fine. Fine?
+
+[45:18] Well, you're like with what I'm worried about in my head, fumigant. Yeah. Um fumigant used for food manufacturing facilities. It's now banned because of ozone concerns. You're probably thinking of methyl bromide.
+
+[45:28] Yes, I am. Uh our pasta plant in Fairlawn, New Jersey now uses profume when we fumigate. Uh though it's unfortunately not as effective as methyl bromide. Our nemesis is typically this is remember, it was in a result because someone was trying to cure a bunch of hams in their house and I was worried about mites for them. Not as effective as methylbromide.
+
+[45:46] Our nemesis is typically the red flower beetle. Oh, I hate those mothers. You ever had um if you buy have I discussed this before? If you buy uh certain kinds of like small run or organic flowers or uh or like specialty flowers like chipati flour, a lot of times the facilities aren't as like like locked down as like the big milling concerns are, and so you can get uh like eggs from things like that, and then they will later get infested, which is why I freeze the hell out of all those flowers. You freeze those flowers, Peter?
+
+[46:18] No, I never thought about that. That's a good idea. Yeah, or like if you bring spices from another country, you should freeze those suckers. You know what I mean? Um if you're gonna store them for a long period of time, because who the hell knows what's gonna pop out?
+
+[46:30] Like you, you know, who knows? Maybe you could bring the next Asian longhorn beetle with you. Yeah. No, don't do that. Uh I wonder whether that's ever happened.
+
+[46:36] Usually they come like uh like pests like that come in on I guess it has happened. Uh usually they come in on things like crates and whatnot, but anyway. Because uh you're like spices aren't uh on the list of no brings, right? Well, yeah, but then anything brought in well, actually it's interesting. Yeah, I guess not.
+
+[46:54] No, no. Yeah. Um but stuff brought in commercially, it all gets fumigated. Yeah. Our nemesis is typically the red flower beetle, and profume just doesn't kill the eggs very well, so you have to just increase all your other pest management work, which is the right thing to be doing anyway, of course.
+
+[47:09] Hope this is helpful. Uh fan of your work and great to see MoFat on such a role. And this is a side note, Peter Kim and I actually had a good chat about pasta and noodles or Italian-American food history as a potential museum topic. Do you remember said conversation? Yes, of course.
+
+[47:22] That's John. I've been emailing with him. I would like to go see his uh factory. Yeah, I told him we we'd try to come out. He's in Philadelphia?
+
+[47:27] No, Jersey. Jersey. Fer where I don't know where Fairlon is. It's in Jersey. Yeah.
+
+[47:32] Um a couple of updates. I fired. I by the way, I told you last week, I think I told you that I brought this chicken gun into the city, but then wasn't allowed to fire it in the city. This chicken cannon that I built, I brought it out to uh back to Connecticut, took it back together, fired another chicken because Dax wanted to see it shoot. 250 mile an hour.
+
+[47:51] I launched it into the forest, it hit a tree, hit the top of a tree, and was still going up when uh at at the 300 foot mark when it hit that tree. Crazy, man. What's a chicken gun? We already went through yeah, but I'm not gonna go through it again. I see I thought I'd give people an update on it.
+
+[48:08] Um now, what was the question we had about sustainability and shrubs and whatnot? Oh, like repurposing old fruit. Is that is that what he said? Old fruit. Now you sound like an English dude.
+
+[48:18] Old fruit, uh spent fruit and produce, you know. Yeah, so food waste upcycling, repurposing. Like obviously, anyone at the anyone who is paying a lot, like in a commercial application, even at home, you should, but in a commercial application especially, you see a lot of waste and it and it and it bothers you, right? So you have uh certain things you just you have too much of, and there's never gonna be enough use for it. Like, you know, we have so many lemon and lime and grapefruit peels that like unless we literally opened another business making marmalades and weird things like that.
+
+[48:53] It's not even the right stuff in marmalade, uh, you'd have a uh a tough time. But uh I always enjoy finding um uses for for things. I mean, it's kind of uh you know, it's it it's a responsible, uh it's responsible to the your restaurant or yourself because you throw away a lot of money, and it's responsible, it respects the ingredient because you're getting the maximum amount of use out of it. And it's just responsible all the way around. And I think it's a really good mental exercise as well to try to reduce the uh amount of waste that you have.
+
+[49:26] Now, there's various ways you can do this. One is to take all of the scraps and just cook something disgusting and force your employees to eat it. And that's the what like used to be like the old family meal style. I remember uh uh Alex Guarnicelli once told me that when she was working at you know, some like two-star or whatever, two like three-star mission, I don't know, in uh France. What they would do is they would just collect up the raft from clarification, like all of the like the spent lean ground meat and spent egg whites and like foam and gunk and just serve that up.
+
+[49:58] Here's your family meal. Enjoy. Enjoy the raft. Stas would be like, crap on this. Like imagine Styles, what would you do if that like you'd be like I hate the raft.
+
+[50:10] Really? Yeah. Wow. Hate the raft. Anyway.
+
+[50:21] But there's a lot of like other obviously, like certain things can be composted, uh, any vegetable peelings can be used to make stocks, which can then be frozen. On fruits, I mean, um, when we have leftover juice, we try to reuse it for cordials. When we have peels, it's a little harder. Like I made a batch of grapefruit bitters once out of a bunch of spent grapefruit peels, and it was great, but I made a lifetime supply out of like one day's grapefruits. You know what I mean?
+
+[50:49] So it's hard to figure out uh a hundred percent use for all that because a lot of times you'll need a lot more, especially especially in a bar, right? So when you're ordering meat, it's much more responsible to design your menu such that you use up the right amount of each thing. But when you have a bar, it's hard to say, well, I'm gonna have a bar now, and so you're gonna have 35% peel-based things, right? So you're gonna have it's like, you know, half oleo saccharum. No, oleosacrum's great, but we don't go through enough of it, and people demand uh more fresh lemon juice drinks, and so I can't really know what I probably could if I had more more cojones, I could probably figure it out, right, Stas?
+
+[51:31] It's just a matter of not having the the will or the cojones to do it, right? Well, that's an interesting idea. It's hard, I think it's difficult in a bar with things like spent fruit. Luckily, that stuff's typically not as expensive. And when I am using really expensive materials like strawberries or like there's a new drink on the menu that Felipe made with no palis.
+
+[51:50] Did you have that? Did you like that? Rum and nopalis? Mm-hmm. That was good.
+
+[51:53] Uh things like that, we typically get very, very high yields because we're using a centrifuge, so there's very little waste. Uh, which is one of the reasons I like the centrifuge, and which is why Nastasi and I are gonna start selling uh more centrifuges. So, Stas, do you have a recipe picked out that you're gonna make for next week? I think I'm gonna do the chili. Or I'll do the slow cooked pork and sauerkraut.
+
+[52:13] Okay, Nastasi's gonna come back with her dump meal version of slow cooked port and sh uh sauerkraut. Shout out to uh Milk Cult. Uh thanks, Peter Kim for coming on to uh the radio program. We'll see you next week. Oh, next week is uh Rangum.
+
+[52:28] We got Rangum from uh Catching Fire, uh, How uh learning to cook made Us Human. I think that's the exact title of the book. We'll have to look it up. Call in your questions about how cooking made us human next week on to cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[52:49] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:13] Thanks for listening.
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+[3:52] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Food. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[4:17] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1250 from Robert's Petria in Bushwick. Brooklyn! How are you doing, Jack? We got Jack in the studio today.
+
+[4:34] Oh, I'm good. That was that was real energy right there. You like the Brooklyn? Like the You know why? It's because I took a uh a horse uh ride over the weekend at Gettysburg along the battlefield.
+
+[4:46] And so I got the in Wow. Yeah. Horse ride inspired Brooklyn. Yeah. Yep.
+
+[4:52] You know, a lot of people used to ride horses here. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:56] Uh so I think we have uh Stas on the phone too. Okay, so we do not have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez live in the studio today because uh she is out in Chicago. Uh she's not I was about to lie and say she's covering the James Beard Awards for cooking issues, but that's just a straight up lie. Right? We lost somebody.
+
+[5:17] Well, I hope we didn't lose either people. Anyway, I don't know if we do we have an extra line for people to call in, or we're done with the case. Yeah, we got we got three lines, so. Alright, so uh the big special guest we have on uh air today is Richard Rangham. Richard Rangham is the uh let me get this uh right here.
+
+[5:29] The uh Ruth B. Moore, professor of biological anthropology at Harvard. Uh and uh he wrote a kind of um a book that I think was published in about 2010, I think, but I think it's remained influential. And I think it's more interesting actually to have him on uh you know six years after it's been published, so that we can see kind of what the impact has been and and how it's how the theories in it have stayed uh you know stayed the test over time. The book is called Catching Fire, How uh Cooking Made Him uh uh made us human.
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+[6:05] Uh and do we uh Professor uh Rangham, are you on the phone? I am. Ah, hi. Good to good to speak with you. Good to speak with you.
+
+[6:11] Um so i by the way, I don't know whether like how do you how do you do you want to give the elevator pitch for what the book's about for those people that don't already have it, or do you want me to mutilate it for you, or what do you want to do? Well well uh uh sure. Hello? Something's going on with the phone lines. Is that is that Professor Rangham's phone that's cutting out?
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+[6:30] Yeah. Both of the lines just cut out, so we'll have to have them call right back. So listen, while we're waiting for while we're waiting for them to call back, I'll just catch a few questions that we had uh in advance. Uh Andrew is another Tandoor question. Andrew wrote in, hello.
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+[6:42] I just started listening to the show and I love it. I thought I'd write in a question. I hope this is the right spot. I've decided it's time I bring a tandoor into my life. Good call.
+
+[6:49] The internet is awash with videos of courageous DIYers building set ovens in their backyards. I have a little DIY experience, but I'm not a half-wit and can follow directions. What do you think? Buy or build? Any tips or thoughts for a rookie learning to feast on Tika and Nan?
+
+[7:02] Cheers, Andrew. Listen, dude, if you don't like DIY stuff, the only reason to build a Tandor is because you really, really, really, really, really want to build a Tandoor, right? If you'd rather just and you also like how much value does your time uh you know have? Like I bought mine and I am an avid DIYer just because I think in general it's better the first time you use a piece of equipment. If you had been grown, if you'd grown up and used Tandoors your whole life and you knew what the geometry was and you knew how it was supposed to work, and you roughly knew what mass it was supposed to be, and you roughly knew what the k you know the competition of the clay was and how it was reinforced and how it was used over time, and you know, kind of you knew all of those factors, then I'd say, you know what?
+
+[7:43] Build one. A lot of fun. But in absence of that, if you haven't actually used one before, probably a good idea to just get one from the professionals. The one I have, and they should pay me because I've sent so many people to them. Uh uh, I'm you know, it's www.tandoors.com.
+
+[7:57] It's Gulati International, and they're in New Jersey. Uh I was lucky enough, I live close enough, I was able to go get one. Uh, but if you don't, if you're not that lucky, uh they will ship it. But I think the shipping is expensive because they're clay and they they really uh want you to ship them by truck carrier. So um, so there you have it.
+
+[8:14] And uh Jack, are we back yet? If not, I have one more question. We're back. We're back? We're back.
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+[8:19] All right. Uh I will get to the second question before the end of the show. Uh it's about uh uh Bazbooza, the Semolina uh uh cake. Anyway, okay, so Professor, we got Stas. We got you on the phone too?
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+[8:31] No, hi. Richard Rangham here. Professor Rangam, well, good, good, good. Okay, now do you want to give the the elevator pitch, or do you want me to give the elevator pitch and then you'll say what an idiot I am, or how do you want to do it? Um you should give the elevator pitch.
+
+[8:44] All right, so so basically, in it here here here's what I what I got out of it. So the question the the question is this: how is it or why is it that human beings have evolved in uh in a very kind of particular way? Why do we have uh big, uh very energetically expensive brains to run? Why is our digestive system short? Why is our jaw muscles puny?
+
+[9:07] Why are our relatively puny to other things like uh great apes? Why uh why is it uh that our teeth are structured the way they're all these kinds of things? Why are we relatively erect? Uh why are we relatively hairless? Why can't we climb very well?
+
+[9:22] Uh and if you if the question is, is it these these kinds of things started happening a long, long time ago? What caused those things to happen? And the kind of simplest explanation from an Occam's razor standpoint isn't any one of the normal kind of uh things that have been posited, like tool use or any of these other things. Uh really the the most simple Occam's razor thing is uh cooking. Cooking can accomplish all of those things because if you cook foods, all of a sudden they are easy much easier to chew.
+
+[9:51] You don't have to chew as long, it takes a lot less time, and you get a lot more actual caloric value uh energy out of the foods once they're cooked versus raw. Basically, right, Professor? Absolutely fantastic job, Dave. Yeah, no, that's really terrific. And um, so what it comes down to is this uh what we know about humans is that uh you cannot live on raw food in the wild.
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+[10:12] You know, uh if you're a raw foodist, then you can survive uh uh on um uh on your salads and your smoothies and so on uh in an urban environment in which you can take the highest quality food that you can find and uh you can blend it and so on. But but it's not good enough in the wild. That's what we've now realize for the last few years. So humans are unlike every other species, we are adapted to eating our food cooked. We absolutely need to.
+
+[10:41] So that's one big point. And then the other big point is, well, okay, if that's true, how long has it been true? Is it is it uh fifty thousand years ago? Is it five thousand years ago? Is it half a million years ago?
+
+[10:55] And uh and actually I think that there's a pretty easy answer to this, which is that it's been true as long as we have bodies like the bodies that we have nowadays. And when did we get those bodies? Well, everybody knows. It was uh just just decided two million years ago. Now one of the questions I have is hit it right at the beginning, and it's uh it's in the in the book, and here's the kind and maybe there's been a lot of research since 2010.
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+[11:20] Uh so one of the main arguments that um critics have is there is no evidence of fire remote like f cooking fire, you know, non non-happenstance fire, um anywhere near that long ago. Your counter argument in the book is mostly well, it's the easiest explanation and therefore should be accepted until an easier explanation is is given. Is that still your A is am I ca am I putting your position correctly? And B, has that changed over the past six years? Yeah, no, that's great.
+
+[11:55] Um so yeah, there's um uh n no one can say yet that uh uh that there is definitely control of fire by humans going all the way back to when I am predicting it, uh uh two million years ago. But uh since since the book was published, uh we have had uh fire, the date of control of fire being pushed uh nicely back. So um we've now got uh a couple of places at eight hundred thousand years ago, uh a place at a million years ago. This is you know quite a lot more than the two hundred and fifty thousand years ago that people have traditionally thought. And uh and I'm uh feeling very excited about reports I've been hearing about um some evidence that is going to take the the evidence for the control of fire back uh to uh to very close to to when I think it um it will eventually be shown.
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+[12:51] And and so that that million that eight hundred thousand year old one is is a fairly accepted site? Yes it is uh that one is in in Israel uh and then uh th there's another one uh which has just been published in Spain uh just about the same time and then there's a million year one in South Africa. Huh and let me it's and so this is this is also something that I don't understand. I'm just curious is um what is the difference between a two hundred and fifty thousand year old site that has been easily identified for a long time as having control of fire and a site that's uh a million years uh a million years ago. What's the difference in technology or placement or how how the um how the sites are preserved such that it makes it more difficult to trace it back?
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+[13:36] Like why is there that line? I mean basically uh over these immense periods of time that we're talking about then the further back you go then uh the more chance there is that uh everything has been disturbed to the point that you're never gonna be able to find what you're looking for. Um I mean here's one measure of the way in which it's disturbed. Uh the half life of a cave, that is to say the the duration that a cave is going to exist is something around a quarter of a million years. So that most caves have gone uh after that time because of uh erosion of the of the cave rock, that sort of thing.
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+[14:15] Um so th there's all sorts of difficulties the further back you go, and the in the end, the way that people are finding evidence for the control of fire in the very early times, like a million years ago, is um uh more from uh microscopic grains of charcoal that uh cannot be explained on the basis of anything else other than humans being responsible for making fire. W what would the difference be on the microscopic level between say a lightning strike and human fire? Well, I mean, natural fires um do can produce uh charcoal, of course. Um, but uh uh they tend to produce charcoal that ends up with uh smaller grains than um than human made fire. Uh that's been shown in um you know actualistic studies.
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+[15:08] Um but the the real thing that uh characterizes the evidence for the use of fire by humans at a million years ago in South Africa is the fact that there is a very ancient cave. It's in fact uh it's really the only cave that has been found at that date. And deep in the cave, uh uh thirty meters in, so uh what was that? Uh uh a hundred feet in, uh you have uh lots of buried charcoal, and uh people say there's no way that you could have had any natural process that brought in the fuel. Right.
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+[15:50] So it's not it's not like a natural it's not like West Virginia where we have all these coal things that catch on fire every once in a while. This is not like a coal bearing cave or something like this. Right, exactly. So but but you have to be very careful. You know, there's there's a lot of places where uh people have found some evidence of burning associated with humans uh way back 1.5 million, 1.6 million years ago.
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+[16:12] But um there's always that possibility that it was uh a tree burning from a lightning strike uh or uh some other natural fire. So that's why you have to be so cautious. All right. So that's the the the first uh you know thing I think that a lot of people bring up. And the the second one, I'm curious whether there's been more research, and this is the core really, and really I was laughing.
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+[16:33] Uh actually uh I listened to it when I'm when I was driving the car, I got it on um on Audible. And uh I was laughing out loud with the parts about the the raw diet because uh it's been it's been exactly my experience. I I did the raw diet, I lost a bet and had to do the raw diet for a week. And I'll tell you, uh I I you know I didn't need any uh scientific study to show that I wasn't absorbing my uh calories. Just ask ask my toilet.
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+[16:59] You know, it was like it's obviously the stuff runs straight through you. Um it's uh I mean to me it's fairly obvious, and you're eating a preposterous amount of of uh of and this is like as you say, you know, shopping in modern supermarkets and you know, modern having I have a very expensive high speed blender um and taking a lot of times to soak things, etc. etc. Right. I mean, using agricultural foods, and so of course, uh you know the the the quality of foods that are produced in on farms uh is far higher simply from the point of view of producing energy than what you get in the wild.
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+[17:38] So so you know, the the fruits in the area that I work on study chimpanzees in Uganda, uh the average fruit has about as much sugar as a carrot and and far less than an apple or an orange and so on. So the raw food is have all these advantages uh that you mentioned uh including eating domesticated foods um and uh yes there's quite a lot of of extra work that's now been done on this and um so uh since the book was published we've got uh very nice data showing that uh if you uh feed mice on uh cooked uh tubers or or on cooked meat or on cooked peanuts then uh they will get more energy uh than eating raw and as you say I mean anybody who's tried a raw food diet knows this but uh it's nice to be able to work out the mechanisms. Right. And uh I think another thing that uh I don't know whether a lot of people bring it up when they talk to you about the book but the another thing I thought was very interesting and I I didn't I you know you expect to hear it um in nutrition discussions and you never do never uh in your book is a basically a huge indictment of the way we and I don't think you even explicitly bring it out this way but a huge indictment of the way nutritional labels are printed. Um because a calorie is clearly not a calorie is clearly not a calorie it depends on the the structure of it, how much it's cooked, uh how it's delivered to you, how much you chew, etc, etc.
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+[19:09] What are your do you have any more current thoughts on that? Do you are you even interested in that? Um no, I mean uh I I remain interested. Um it was uh an epilogue in the book uh uh calling for a a more rational approach to food labeling and um R Rachel Carmody and I uh we ran a session at the American Association for Advancement of Science uh uh three or four years ago where we brought together a number of people to to reflect on the fact uh that as you say it's uh it's very clear to all sorts of people, even though it's not very often talked about, uh that the food labeling system does not capture what you want it to know, which is uh how much weight will I put on from eating this particular kind of food. Um it it's all very uh uh ironic because uh the scientists do know too they do understand on the whole that uh processing matters enormously and that the more highly processed your food is uh whether it's by cooking or by um whatever has uh been done by way of grinding it in in uh the food company before you even get it um this will increase the number of calories you get and b everyone knows that so we should have a a modified labeling system but there've been a whole series of attempts to think about what the new system could should be and no one can agree on what it should be.
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+[20:33] So it's not gonna happen. Right for the moment. Right. Well the thing is is even if you could uh do that you'd s you still need some sort of uh I mean the body is so complicated it you simply can't really say what's going to happen even there's no way to adjust it at all because uh my favorite you know example I put to everyone is that if I drank uh a gallon of uh vegetable oil right now if I could do it without throwing up I simply wouldn't absorb the vast majority of those calories. Even though they're liquid and I should be able to absorb them fairly well, I'd just be overwhelming my system and it would all uh you know leave relatively unprocessed.
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+[21:12] I mean it's just impossible to it's impossible to uh to account for the differences in the way humans consume. I mean you could get probably some sort of close average based on what the aver average person eats and how fast the average person eats, but it's just an incredibly complicated system, right? Yes, yeah exactly. And and that's a great example. And it really does draw attention to the fact that part of the problem with the current system is that it is too simple.
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+[21:42] But then by uh the same token uh any change to the system uh in terms of the way that we we put um some kind of numbers on the food labels um is going to be complicated and and complexity is a hard sell. Yeah. So we I I've thought of th things I mean you probably have two uh like a a some kind of traffic light system where uh you have red amber and and green um and uh you uh you associate those with um the particular numbers that you put on the on the food label and say uh I i if it's uh if it's uh if it's the red then uh probably actually you you you know under various circumstances you're gonna get more calories than you expect from this and uh and if it's green you get less or whatever. Oh so base base it on expectations rather than on uh health not don't have it be a because I think most of the health claims are garbage anyway. So it's like uh base it on expectations like uh that's an interesting idea.
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+[22:42] Yes the uh something that that you know emphasizes that um nothing very precise is going to come out but you here are some ways to think about what it's gonna do to you. Yeah I mean I think the real damage and you know you touch touch on this, but the real real damage is this is that um once you apply numbers to something and this is my problem with much of nutritional science in general once you apply numbers to something then the average person believes that those numbers have meaning. And so now there is this idea that there is a simple number that has a a meaning and in fact uh it it doesn't and and so you can't go back and tell someone well your whole you know m you your whole mentality about the way uh food works is based uh on this thing that you think is simple and is accurate but in fact I can't give you any good number sorry. People will won't buy that. You know what I mean?
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+[23:33] Yes. Well I mean I mean to me the you know the ultimate example of this of course is the fact that um that uh what uh my group and I have been emphasizing is this enormous difference between raw and cooked and if you just look at the numbers in the USDA website which is the source for where uh a lot of the materials or a lot of the food labels come from uh what you will see is that uh you are supposed to get the same number of calories from uh raw food as you do from cooked. So if you take you know a carrot and you cook it raw uh you sorry you eat it raw and uh and then you cook it, according to the USDA website you're gonna get the same number of calories. Well it's completely absurd. Yeah of course and and uh you know this is actually ultimately could be dangerous because people who believe in numbers and as you say, you know people tend to believe in numbers once they're given them uh will uh stick to their guns and use them to support their philosophy and what could be dangerous is that uh you could as a result get uh too little food from uh eating it raw and that's a choice if you're an adult and if you're a child it's um something that your your parents give to you and that's where it really could be dangerous you know and we we have cases uh that have been reported of um of infants dying from eating raw food right because well right I mean so I have a question when you're ready to I don't think it's related but when whenever you're ready oh if it's it's not related to uh we'll we'll we'll get what are they we'll get in a minute if not if it's not really all right so let's let me because if people haven't read the book yet I encourage them to go out and uh and get the book it's uh it's a fun read it's uh well written uh and uh right now we're really talking about the f the except for the nutrition labels we're talking about the first half so the first half I would guess Professor is more um contentious in the scientific community and the second half is more contentious in the kind of sociological uh in the community uh community and the second half is more contentious kind of sociologically would you say that's true or no?
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+[25:40] Yes probably that's right uh uh yeah I mean you know it's not that contentious but but nevertheless uh that that's where it's provocative let's put it that way. Yeah yeah okay that's a better way to put it so let's stay with the the first half and the first half is really about this this thesis of um cooking and and I was completely fascinated because uh Professor you you spent a lot of time actually hanging out with uh with great apes uh you know chimps and whatnot in in in Africa observing them eating the way they eat uh do doing these sorts of things how long how long per day how um how much time per day does the average uh great ape take eating? Um so a chimpanzee which weighs um I don't know uh something like a hundred pounds, uh, will spend uh roughly five or six hours just chewing. Just chewing. Not gathering, just chewing.
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+[26:34] Just chewing, yeah. So so uh you know, don't time up into three and that sort of thing, um, but uh but literally with food in their mouth, just moving their jaws up and down, uh it is about half the day. And so this is one of the incredibly striking things about uh the difference between us and uh our cousin primates, because uh it's all related to body size. You know, the bigger you are, then the more time you've got to spend chewing, because you've got to get more food into your body. And um, so if we were eating our food raw in the same way that uh chimpanzees and gorillas and orangutans do, then we would be spending something around seven or eight hours chewing per day.
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+[27:12] Now now the reason, uh for those of you that haven't read the book yet, that you would that we would have to chew more than uh the chimp is I mean, I would guess not just because our muscles are less strong, but because we require more energy to run our brains, yes, and we have a less efficient uh intestinal system. Well, okay, now here's the funny thing about our brains. Um they're incredibly expensive to run, and you can never turn them off, unlike a computer. And so, you know, they're expensive to run when you're asleep, they're expensive to run when when you're awake. Um, but uh even though they are costing uh something like uh between a quarter and a fifth of all the energy that you eat, um when when you're resting, uh something like um uh twenty five percent of the energy i in your body is you being used to run your brain.
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+[28:03] Nevertheless, the total amount of energy that humans are using when they're asleep is the same in proportion to body weight as it is in any other primate. Huh. Is that because we're spending less energy on digestion? Exactly. So so the the solution that many people like and it seems to really uh have a lot of sense to why it is that we are able to afford to run a big brain, which is obviously so important, is that uh we cut back on running our guts.
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+[28:40] And and this makes every sense because we have the smallest digestive system in relationship to body size for any primate and we have the largest brain in relationship to body size for any primate. And the gut is one of the most uh expensive parts of the body. And our is it is uh it's been a while, but isn't it also true that our brain is more more um calorically expensive to run per gram than uh most other brains we just run it at a faster rate we overclock ourselves yes uh no no that that's not right um we i it's the same uh a a gram of our brain uh it costs the same as a gram of mouse brain okay good nice all right so like a whale just a whale takes a lot more energy to run their brain but but they have a much bigger body so it's a smaller percentage uh for which one for like a whale anything something with a huge brain an elephant something with a giant yes yes exactly yes right all right cool so we are not overclockers so uh interesting uh okay now uh so on this uh let me s some recent papers that have come out and uh see what your response is uh your c uh colleague, uh colleagues, I guess. Uh uh Lieberman, Professor Lieberman, uh, who I guess is in your same building or in the building next to you at Harvard. Absolutely, yes.
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+[29:52] He's uh he's about uh twenty yards away. Ah, yes, you two can duke it out in the real life. You don't need to write papers. You can just go uh have it out with each other. Absolutely, yes, right.
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+[30:01] And uh and Professor Zink uh wrote a paper basically saying that they think that uh chewing, uh uh pounding rather and and beating things with tools prior to um uh prior to consuming them is enough to um allow us to get the extra energy out rather than uh cooking. Uh what are your thoughts on that? Well, my my thought is that uh it's a very odd idea. I mean, I you know, they're they're both uh good friends and uh and Katie Zink was my my student at one point um and uh so you know I I I like what they do. But I think it's this particular conclusion is odd because uh it doesn't seem to pay attention to uh what we know about raw food.
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+[30:43] You know, we know that um that uh even with incredibly high class food uh you put into electric blender, uh you as a human will still lose weight. And what they're saying is that way back in the Paleolithic, when you're using incredibly crude stone tools, that people could have done enough by way of pounding and cutting their food to um increase the uh ease of digestion and um and get enough food out of it. Yeah, I mean, I think the uh the study, by the way, if people want to read it, is called Impact of Meat and uh Lower Paleolithic Food Processing Techniques on Chewing in Humans in uh nature. I you know, I think to me one of the main things about the the paper that I didn't get was they're really just they were focusing on time to create a bolus to swallow, right? Which is not necessarily the the the only thing that's important.
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+[31:37] It's part of it, right? Decreases is the amount of time you have to chew, but not the amount you have to consume to get it to to get the um the calories required, right? Is that is that that is absolutely right. Um so it's very awkward with humans because it's very difficult to get permission to be able to study what happens when people eat raw meat, say, because the authorities are so worried that people are going to get uh some kind of a worm for something from eating raw meat. Yeah.
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+[32:03] So they were stuck with um seeing what happens in terms of the time spent chewing. And you know, they did very nice experiments uh showing that that if you pound your meat or or even just slice it, then you will spend less time chewing. But it doesn't c come to the heart of the matter, as you said. Uh, here's another problem. Um we actually uh have uh very good evidence as a profession that stone tools of uh the type that they're talking about were used long before humans uh emerged into the present body form.
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+[32:38] So the genus Homo um you know were Homo sapiens and an earlier form that had the same basic body shape as Homo erectus, and that happened around one point nine million years ago. But then prior to that, all the way back to three million years ago, you've got uh stone tools being used by somebody, and those somebodies um were pre-human ape-like forms. And so, you know, that's another difficulty that uh that if they were using those tools to modify their food, it didn't do anything for them for a very long time. Yeah, you know what you know what you should do, Professor? You should gat you should let people know here, like on uh this or any other show, we will volunteer to chew raw meat.
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+[33:25] We don't have to spit it out because we're not part of a a sanctioned study. Like isn't there some way to just create a voluntary study or is that completely unethical? No, unfortunately we're not allowed to do that because when we tried to publish it, um the uh journals will ask for the statements showing that we did it all ethically. Yeah, exactly. That's right.
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+[33:49] And you'd be run out of the community on a rail, I presume. Yeah, that's not a bad idea. Yeah. Because the the thing is, right, yeah, if you're if you're writing books, right, I mean clearly you you are, because I mean you could get a bunch of volunteers. I could probably find uh, you know, a hundred volunteers like today who would be willing to chew and swallow the meat and not worry about it.
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+[34:08] But you know, then the question is how would you trace our uh how would you trace our um you'd have to do it inside of a s uh chamber to measure how much we were absorbing, I guess, which is that. Yeah, you know, it becomes complicated, but uh but I I appreciate the thought and uh hey, maybe I'll get get back to you with some some studies. I mean, you know, we'd we'd love to be able to to follow what happens um to uh the microbiome of people eating raw food and people eating cooked food. So you know what we're talking about there. Yeah, yeah.
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+[34:40] The uh the bacteria in the colon. And uh there's increasing evidence that this is quite important, um a contributor to uh the amount of energy we get out of our food. Uh very little is known about um anything that differs between the raw and the cooked uh foods. So shifting people from raw to cooked diets and vice versa, um and uh recording their microbiome would be yeah, it's certainly something that people are going to be wanting to investigate soon. Yeah, well maybe we could find some quasi-ethical way to do it.
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+[35:10] Well, yes, exactly. Right. Yeah. Um so uh see if I have any more uh like uh pressing questions on the on the first section. Um let's let's move to the the second section now and then we can we can move back and forth.
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+[35:27] So the first section describes um you know uh a bunch of reasons why um the best explanation uh the cooking hypothesis, I guess you call it, the best explanation for how we got to be the way we are is that we started cooking. Yeah. Uh now the second section of the book deals with what the um cultural impacts of that are. Uh and so you know that's the part where you know it seems like uh it's it's interesting, get but it gets in in uh hot water for you know, or could potentially get in hot water because it deals a lot with um gender difference. Uh and so uh I'm not gonna take a stab at uh cliff noting that one.
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+[36:08] So you want to give a basic uh rundown of what what cooking allowed to have happen in Yes. Well, sure. So uh h here's the first observation that uh even though nowadays in uh enlightened places in um in Western Europe and United States and so on, uh you have men who are really interested in cooking. Um the fact is that uh in every culture around the world, in every society, um it is uh almost entirely a woman's role to do the d ordinary domestic cooking, the ordinary household cooking. And um this is uh uh the most striking of all of the economic differences between men and women.
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+[36:50] That women do the cooking. They the times when men do the cooking are special occasions when you have feasts, when you have uh some kind of great public affair and um uh men come out and and jointly uh roast the elephant as it were. Right. What uh uh and uh in the book, right, you point to the fact that the ability to not spend a lot of time chewing and having like uh your basic uh like some basic staples and calories already cooked allowed more time for uh one gr it's one group, the males to go out and hunt and therefore the other section devolved on the females to do that the kind of we know it's gonna be their uh cooking. Is that accurate or no?
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+[37:34] No, that that is right. That if you look at small scale society, uh it it's kind of ironic in a way, because uh I I mentioned earlier that that uh if we were eating our food raw, uh then we'd be spending uh something like seven or eight hours uh chewing. And so now we eat our food cooked and we can save lots and lots of time. I mean, instead of seven or eight hours, it's one hour a day, if you look, or less than one hour a day, all around the world, doesn't matter where you are. Uh it's just the human condition.
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+[38:02] Uh one less than one hour a day chewing your food. So what do you do with all the spare time? Well, here's the irony. The irony is that the women are mostly spending that time uh gathering food and cooking it and preparing it. But but meanwhile the men uh in some ways get off lightly.
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+[38:20] And the reason the men get off lightly is not that they don't do anything, uh they do. They they do a lot of uh uh complementary ways to get food. I mean if you're living in a very simple way in a small scale society, uh as a hunter and gatherer, then the men are doing a lot of hunting. But they have options. Women don't have options.
+
+[38:39] They are absolutely required culturally to be there every day producing the the basic food um but the men if they want to they don't have to hunt you know they can go off and and uh lie under a tree and gamble or visit girlfriends in the neighboring area or or go to war or whatever else it is. And for for those of you that are listening to this and ha haven't read the book I encourage you before you draw any sort of opinions to go read the relevant sections of the book because uh Professor you go through uh a series of um societies that appear to contradict what you're saying but then you you have arguments uh as to how they actually kind of fit into the general pattern correct yes I mean th there are astonishing consistencies I I I would say that that's right. Um and so what we we do in the book is to uh uh I try and think about where's this pattern come from why is it that uh universally in in human societies it is the women who are doing the cooking and uh the men who have relative freedom and are able to absolutely rely on women providing food for them uh which is so unlike any other animal and uh I I come to the conclusion that uh this has got something to do with a very basic feature of cooking that once you rely on cooking then there's something funny about the way the food is produced and that is this that it is very easily stolen. It's very easily um used by people other than the ones who collected the food. So compare this with um oh if you're a chimpanzee, say you you climb into a tree, you uh pick up fruit and pop into your mouth and nobody can take it from you.
+
+[40:24] But if you're cooking food, you absolutely have to put the food onto a fire and just sit there for however long it takes for the food to cook. And during that time someone else can come along and take the food. So that means that uh the people who are doing the cooking and people who've collected as food are vulnerable to social competition. And so this is now, you know, a very strange kind of concept compared to thinking about us uh actually in the kitchen, but nevertheless, it is a reality of cooking on the campfire. And I think that reality leads to the following dynamic.
+
+[41:01] The women end up uh needing to be socially protected from the kids from the woman next door or from some lousy bachelor who doesn't have a a wife or from some other visiting man, and the person who protects her is the husband. So in the end it does fall back on the old the men do that kind of labor because of just physical strength. Well, physical strength is part of it, but it probably even more important is just the compact among men. It's the uh it's the consensus among men that uh they will uh act as a sort of unified body uh to declare that uh if somebody has been accused and found guilty of um uh pinching food from behind a woman's back, uh then they will punish them. And so the thing is that they can act in consensus, you know, because when when a wife says to a husband, Look, you know, th somebody's always taking food from my fire, then he doesn't necessarily go and confront them himself.
+
+[42:08] He'll go to the elders and say, We've got a problem in the camp, and then the elders will do something jointly. And that's where the real social power comes from. And and in your book you say that most uh most historical and um you know uh small societies, current small societies that are studied, the um the cooking, keeping the cooking in the family unit unit, the food, is more important even than sex. Yes, I mean, you know, well, we think of marriage, of course, as uh something that is is really purely about sex and having babies, and obviously that's a hugely important part of it. But it's very striking, finding places where um from a man's point of view, what is absolutely more important than raising a family when he first you know enters his twenties and so on and is becoming a man, um, is that there is somebody to cook for him.
+
+[42:59] And if he doesn't have a mother who is still alive providing his food or occasionally a sister, then he needs someone else to do it. And uh he he will somehow arrange that. And in some societies you find that his first wife will be someone who is post-menopausal. She might be in her sixties, uh no way that she's going to provide him any children, but he provides she provides him with food, and that means that he can go away and do manly activities during the day and uh be as masculine as he wants to be. Otherwise, he's forced to do the cooking himself and and uh in a world of stereotypes, then uh that means that uh he can't really adopt a male role.
+
+[43:44] And and also you say in these traditional societies, going back to you say when men cook, they're the ones or when they bring back food, hunt hunted food, meat, it's typically shared in the community, whereas they've gathered food, staples, cooked foods that the women would are not and er not ever shared, typically. Yes, I mean there are a number of ways in which uh the relationships among men in in these small scale societies are um are full of cooperation in a way that is is strikingly not so true of the women. So it tends to be the case that each woman has her own fire. She puts her own food that she has gathered with her own personal hands uh onto that fire, and she shares that food with uh her own children and uh maybe uh well definitely her husband and uh maybe one or two other close relatives. But it's pretty limited the sharing, whereas the men are much more likely when they catch something, uh if it's big enough to share, then they will share it very widely with um the other men uh in the community and then they share it with their own families.
+
+[44:51] All right, now let's get to the crux. Here's the here's here's the big question. So if that was the case for how we evolved not just physically but as uh culturally as a society to be where we are now, right? It let's just assume it's all that it's all completely accurate. What does that tell us about the way we need to, or does it tell us anything about the way that we need to um interact today in a society where most people they cook if they want to, they go to a restaurant if they want to, they order out if they want to.
+
+[45:25] I'm talking in richer societies, like you know, here in the US, um, where we're completely unhinged from any of these uh needs, right? We all have actual jobs that take up uh, you know, eight hours of the day, and cooking and eating is a relatively small proportion of uh of time spent is there I mean clearly there are echoes of what happened more than echoes right but is there is there any is there anything for the future like need we be bound by it anymore? No I I don't think there's any reason to think we have to be bound by the social patterns. I mean we would we would have to acknowledge them if in fact there was any evidence of a of an evolutionary impact on our psychology. I don't I haven't seen any such evidence so far.
+
+[46:12] So it seems to me that um that we should look at what happens in uh the human species in the past and in many societies today and uh and be sort of conscious of the fact that we want to get away from it in a world of uh of egalitarianism between the the sectors right I mean i i I don't remember whether you state that uh explicitly in the book but I mean the interesting thing to me is that we that there really doesn't seem to be once it's once it's no longer a physical necessity we no longer need to act that way anymore right yeah no that's exactly right uh on the other hand you know you might say that there are benefits to it I think one of the loveliest um uh papers uh studies that came out in the um time since the book was published was one that drew attention to the way that um eating around the fire uh is uh a is that system that is conducive to the most lovely kinds of stories and uh conversations that occur in uh the hunters and gatherers of South Africa. So the Bushman there, studied by Polly Wiesner, uh she recorded what people talk about all day. And basically, during the day, people talk about very little. Uh there are a few words just uh involved in uh organizing each other as to where we're going and what we're doing and uh how to cut up a piece of meat and so on. But the all the interesting conversations, she said, happen around the fire in the evening.
+
+[47:49] And that's when uh the stories are told about uh the original myths of the society, or of some tremendous hunt that happened, or some hilarious incident happened uh with someone in another group, uh, whatever. So, yeah, that reminds me of the fact that people do say that uh the conversations around a meal uh with your children are enormously important, and that there's something that is you know very sadly lost when everyone just watches television um w while they're eating. Oh, yeah. No, that's that's for sure true. I mean, the thing is is that there's there's the good and the bad of what used to be, right?
+
+[48:31] So it's uh the I mean I would hope that we could degender the idea of sitting around a uh a campfire and talking or or sitting around a meal. It I mean it's a it's an interesting thing. You don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right? Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, you know, we're s we certainly should not be bound to the notion that women are the cooks.
+
+[48:54] Um that has been true in our past, and and that that's you know, that's bad from the point of view of uh stereotypes and uh assigning people to a particular role. Um hopefully we can get way past that as we move into uh uh a post gendered world. What are your thoughts on the kind of observation I've heard many times that uh most of the time in modern couples in the US um when there is going to be a shared um a shared uh uh shared housework between uh the man and the woman in a couple uh that the man almost always takes the cooking and the women almost always take the uh cleaning role on that. This is not my observation. I've heard this from from many people.
+
+[49:41] Uh do you think that's because cooking now is seen as a high prestige thing? It's just yet another I mean that yeah that's a really fun speculation. I mean one of the questions I think is fascinating, which I haven't seen any really satisfactory answers to is why do men tend to do the barbecuing well you touch on that in your book, right? That meat cooking has since time immemorial meat cooking if men were going to cook anything it was going to be the meat. Yeah I mean it it's one possibility.
+
+[50:06] Yeah another possibility is that uh because uh meat tends to be the the center of attention for the the meal uh the thing that makes that particular meal special then the men want to be in charge of it because you know they get all the excitement of uh of of producing it. Right. So even as we go towards less less gendering of things we actually still maintain this sort of problematic uh gender differences. Yeah I mean you know of course uh you know there are there are many other dynamics involved about uh who's looking after the children, who's taking children to school, you know, who's getting the jobs and so on. But um but the the point I would certainly want to emphasize is that um there's there doesn't seem to be any reason why our evolutionary past of uh women doing the cooking has to be the evolution it does not have to be the evolutionary future.
+
+[50:59] Okay. We gotta wrap up, but I do have a caller with a question for the guests. All right, cool. You're on the air. Hey, uh David, Professor Rangham.
+
+[51:07] Uh this is uh scooter in Montana and actually uh professor, I'm a uh Harvard anthropology grad, though I don't think we crossed paths there. Um but I this actually a question that was uh some some folks in the chat room were kicking around is uh uh just sort of generally, how does fermentation play into um uh kind of caloric uh benefits? Oh I think it's terrific question because we don't know that much about fermentation. Yeah, it's very clear that um uh that when you uh uh uh ferment your grains uh in water to producing a beer or you you ferment your meat um that it increases the net energy gain for the eaters. So there's looks like there's all sorts of ways in which uh fermentation is a sort of functional equivalent of cooking.
+
+[51:58] The the question in my mind that is unresolved is how far this goes back in time. You know, as you probably know, uh pottery only goes back to something like uh twenty, twenty-five thousand years ago. Sure. Um could people have been fermenting in skin bags uh for some tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of years before then? Uh could they have found ways to ferment uh even without containers like that?
+
+[52:29] Uh th there's all sorts of research uh possibilities that we still don't have any very good ideas about, I think. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Great question. Um Yeah, but was is there evidence of food stockpiling? In which case there would be auto fermentation or redding and things like natural wells or hollows or anything?
+
+[52:48] Uh right, no, I I don't think uh, you know, only very, very recently for that sort of thing. Uh th that would be wonderful to to find evidence um of the kind of thing that you see in the South Seas nowadays or or relatively recently where um cooked starches could be kept for I think people sometimes think a hundred years uh in underground uh cruel places. That's a great question. So uh we're gonna get kicked off the air. One question on the way out, Professor, and uh thank you so much for for being on.
+
+[53:20] Do people pester you about the paleo diet all the time? Oh, uh uh they occasionally ask and um yeah, I mean I like a Mediterranean diet myself. All right. I just I had to be I'd be remiss if I didn't because uh it seems to me to be completely not uh in uh you know part of what you talk about there, but I'm sure people pester you about it because they see the word paleo. Well, yes, that's true, right.
+
+[53:45] No, I I'm not wild about the paleo diet myself, and and uh I mean I think you know there's a lot of fantasy about the paleo diet that um uh i like so much of nutritional science, you know, people get hold of a of a very particular idea and really push it and uh it it's still an incredibly primitive area. I mean, it amazed me that uh when I started getting interested in cooking, there was uh no systematic literature looking at the impact of cooking on uh the energy production uh on the food. And we've had to do that work ourselves. I mean, just really brings home the fact that this is a very exciting area, the whole area of nutrition uh that uh still has a tremendous uh way to go before we really understand it well. All right, well, uh, we've been uh speaking with uh Professor uh Richard Rangham uh from Harvard University, author of uh Catching Fire, How Cooking Made Us Human.
+
+[54:39] Professor, thank you so much for being on the air with us today. Had a great time. Really appreciate it, Dave. Thanks a lot. All right, thanks.
+
+[54:44] And uh on the way out, I want to mention two things. Uh Shy wrote in about uh Bazbooza, which is a semolina cake soaked with uh syrup. He wanted to make it less sweet. Use a low DE, that's dextrose equivalent glucose syrup. You can get it on Amazon.
+
+[54:58] It's about 40% as sweet, it's about 81 bricks. You can water it down a little bit. It'll be uh a little more than half a little less than half the sweetness of the sugar that you want to uh add. And one shout out the Museum of Food and Drinks, two shout outs. Museum of Food and Drinks Spring Benefit is uh next week.
+
+[55:13] There are still tickets available. And uh my son, the quad has uh who's uh on the autistic spectrum, uh, goes to a twice exceptional school called the Quad Preparatory School. They're having their third annual Founders Gala. I'm gonna be making cocktails, Franklin Becker's gonna be cooking. Uh Mark Ladner and Christina Tozi are putting stuff out there, and you can go to eventbrite.com and type in Quad Preparatory.
+
+[55:34] Thank you so much, Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org.
+
+[56:01] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:17] Cooking issues will be starting shortly. Please stay tuned.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Futures coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick.
+
+[2:11] How are you doing, folks? Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Joined in the studio as usual with Nastasia. Lopez, how you doing, Stuzz?
+
+[2:24] Good. Yeah, everything good? And and of course, in the booth, we got Jackie Molecules. Hello, hello. Now, Jack.
+
+[2:32] Molecules. Now, Jack, it's gonna be sad times for cooking issues because good news for you, you're gonna go out on tour pretty soon, right? I am, yeah. There's a lot on the horizon for me right now. But if you're on tour, that means that you're not gonna be in the booth.
+
+[2:49] Well, you know, they'll be the ghost of Jackie Molecules. Um, I I I I do hope to kind of call in from some of these cities. I'll be in uh, let's see, I'll be in London, I'll be in the east of England, some weird little town, Ipswich, I think. Then I'll be in Paris and I think Barcelona and Iceland. Ooh.
+
+[3:13] Yeah. I'm gonna go to Iceland. Me too, yeah. I'm excited about that one the most. We're playing shows in like the weirdest places in Iceland, so that'll be fun.
+
+[3:20] Yeah. Yeah. If the listeners want to check out the music, it's Odeta Hartman 222, which I think I've shamelessly plugged on the show before, but that's the record that I produced. I play with her live, and um we're hitting the road. So what's up with the 222?
+
+[3:34] What's the meaning of the 222? Well, let's see. Her birthday is the 22nd, her number is two, that's just where it starts, and then uh we had this thing where we would always send each other screenshots when it was 22 p.m. on the phone back and forth, just as a kind of like whatever thing. And then it turns out she researched the number 222, and it's some weird like numerology, it's like an angel number of it it the meaning behind it is like a divine collaboration kind of thing or something.
+
+[4:01] So I don't know. There are all these coincidences with with the twos. So we just went and then the record itself is 22 minutes and 22 seconds long. By chance. That first of all, you're lying.
+
+[4:12] Well, okay. The final mix down. Listen, the final mix down was like 21 minutes and 40 seconds, and I was like, I'll be damned if this isn't 222. It was close enough, you know. Yeah, that is not by chance.
+
+[4:23] Yeah, shave it. It was close. No, it was close enough by chance. It was close enough by chance. Right, thanks.
+
+[4:28] Yeah. Uh it's wait. So how many twos are in the album? Only three. What did you got a fourth two there?
+
+[4:32] Yeah, I know. It's just kind of uh hanging two. Hanging two. All right. All right.
+
+[4:37] Well, anyway. Uh yeah. The out my last show in the studio will be the week of uh the 24th. So I don't know, what day would that be? The 19th or something?
+
+[4:47] June 19th. That'll be a sad day. Yeah. That'll be a sad day. We'll pop champagne.
+
+[4:51] Oh. Oh, and uh me is the one. For Stas mostly, not for me. Mimi Me's in the back uh provided by Peter Kim, the director of the museum of uh food and drink, coming off of his uh uh I'm sure you went on some huge bender because you just finished your the uh spring benefit. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:09] Yeah, well, actually, no, I I the next morning Alice Waters came and visited the museum, and then I had to do this shoot for CBS Sunday morning uh the Chinese takeout box. You didn't uh lick yourself up for the uh Alice Waters meeting? No? I think that was a yes. Yeah, that was a yes, that was a secret yes, yeah.
+
+[5:29] That's right. He was actually he wasn't using liquor, he was chewing cot. Is cot actually illegal here in the It is highly legal, so I know nothing of it. Yeah, yeah. Your old lawyer day is coming back.
+
+[5:41] All right. So we got some uh interesting stuff uh we're gonna do here on the uh program today. We're gonna we're gonna call into Harold McGee. He's he's on the line. All right, well, and Daniel Gritzer's gonna come in later to help answer someone else's question on next mosaic.
+
+[5:54] But Harold, how you doing? I'm doing well, thanks. How about you guys? Oh, good, good. Harold was the uh the twenty twenty sixteen recipient of uh what was the exact MoFed Honoree.
+
+[6:05] Yeah. 2016 Honoree. Yeah. Yeah. Uh uh you might know him as the person who knows everything about the science of deliciousness, or at least has taught us everything about the science of deliciousness.
+
+[6:15] If you haven't uh already purchased uh on food and cooking, uh the keys of good cooking and gone on Bookfinder and also purchased uh the Curious Cook uh off of someone else's used bookstore that do that now. Stop listening to us and go buy that right now. Um I know like you have excerpts out there. Yeah, I should really do something about that, shouldn't I? Yeah, because it it doesn't even it's not like uh it's not like republishing the old information from on food and cooking in the first edition, which I know you're like I'd have to go revisit it.
+
+[6:48] This is more about just experiments. You could write literally like a two-paragraph addendum being like this is no longer a hundred percent what I think, but this is how I went through the experiment at that time, it'd still be useful for people, no? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Just my just my personal feelings. All right, so I met someone at uh Booker and Dax Um recently, and she had said that uh her, I think it was her mom, uh had just had a virus and it knocked out her olfaction.
+
+[7:19] And the doctors, you know, said that uh you know, it might come back a hundred percent, it might come back partially, it might take weeks, it might take months. And I told her that I know someone, uh, you know, you, Harold, who uh had a similar a similar um problem, and so I just thought I'd have you on to talk about kind of what that was like, especially for someone who, you know, is uh food is such a big part of their life and kind of how you made it through it and kind of what the whether there was any sort of thing you could do to help yourself out while it was going on. Yeah, it was uh not fun. And I I think you might remember it because it was a couple of years ago when um uh we had just finished lecturing at Harvard and I was coming down to New York City to participate in a country ham tasting where the whole point is to taste and notice qualities and uh uh like a week or ten days before I came out to Harvard, uh I just woke up one morning, made a cup of coffee and realized I couldn't taste my coffee or I couldn't smell it. Um and uh that was scary because I'm in the middle of writing a book about smell.
+
+[8:35] And uh so I have a friend who uh w was at the time the director of the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia, you know, center that specializes in taste and smell. And I wrote him immediately and said, uh, yeah, oh what do I do about this? And he he basically said uh it's a very common problem that lots and lots of people over the course of their lifetime do lose their sense of smell for a period of time, that it's happened to him, and that uh there's really nothing that specialists in the field can uh do to help or to uh uh comfort you, you know. It uh there's just no predicting when it's gonna come back and how. So he said just relax and uh uh try to enjoy the other qualities of foods, and um so I I did that and uh what I found, I did find that my um my interest in eating really declined, you know.
+
+[9:45] It's uh smell is such a big part of it that I would just uh not see the point of working really hard to make something nice for dinner anymore. Um so what I did end up doing though is uh just noticing that uh the uh uh when when you can't smell food, then the other qualities become that much more important. So I found that um if a food was uh undersalted or if the meat was kind of you know tough and dry and not very interesting, that I just uh it made that particular dish really unappealing, and I just didn't want to eat any more of it. Uh so uh my my feeling is that uh uh you know uh investing in the idea that it's gonna come back at some point and you have to keep yourself healthy in the meantime and eat reasonably, uh then what you do uh if you're cooking for yourself or if you're cooking for someone else who has this uh problem is just to make the food as appealing in all its other aspects as possible. And so that means uh the seasoning, it means uh I found myself using lemon juice and lime juice a lot more than I would have in the past.
+
+[11:07] Uh I liked crunchy things and really smooth silky things, uh, but stuff that kind of dried out my mouth, you know, just uh that that didn't do it for me anymore. So tannins, you like laid off tannins and a lot of tannic stuff? Uh yeah, yeah. Um one thing I remember doing that sounds a little uh well, it is kind of peculiar, but uh, you know, I uh I live in California. There's a lot of citrus around all the time.
+
+[11:38] And so I was trying to, you know, eat uh my oranges, uh get my vitamins. Um and I noticed one day when I peeled my orange and then it took me a few hours to get around to eating it, I got distracted by something else. You know how the um the skin around each segment dries out. Uh and it turns out if it dries out enough, uh instead of being chewy, which i was not something that I was interested in without any sense of smell, it it becomes really crisp. And then you get this kind of burst of flavory when you bite into it that made eating oranges, something as simple as eating oranges, uh much more interesting to me.
+
+[12:20] This was on like a naval or like a setsuma, like a more of a commentine kind of a situation? Actually, it was to begin I first found it in um uh in the smaller ones in tangerines, uh clementines, things like that. But it also works for navel. And then I discovered that uh MFK Fisher actually wrote about this, you know, decades and decades ago. She was living in France, she she wasn't getting uh she didn't have the money to uh eat uh spectacularly well, but she found that if she left uh a man peeled a mandarin orange, left it on her radiator until it dried out, uh she got that wonderful release of flavor.
+
+[13:01] Anyway, so little things like that I found could could make a really big difference. And then I also uh am a believer in the idea that you know the the more effort you make, the more you kind of uh uh make your olfactory system think that it's uh expectations are high for it, that it'll come back faster. So I would just really concentrate on trying to smell things even when I wasn't really getting anything. And uh I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but at least you you have the feeling that you're uh again m making an effort exercising the system even if it's not responding the way you want it to yet. Now uh to be so people know at the beginning this wasn't like, oh, I have a stuffy nose.
+
+[13:48] This is like nose clear knocked out though, right? Like knockout. Yeah, yeah. No, I that that was the scary thing, is that I had no other symptoms. If I'd had a head cold, then sure, it kind of makes sense that my sense of smell is a little impaired, but uh I had had no other issues whatsoever, just just realized one day I was drinking my coffee and I wasn't tasting coffee.
+
+[14:11] Was there any moment during this time when you uh found anything delicious? Uh well, yeah, in a in a kind of um, you know, partial way. I mean, potato chips, because they're they're salt uh and actually potato chips uh sea salt and vinegar potato chips. And the the crispy, crunchy piece of it uh was really wonderful too. That was sort of my my go-to uh, you know, just to to get calories because I really wasn't interested in uh in eating.
+
+[14:52] Did you uh did you do any of the texture only uh kind of famous dishes like uh bird's nest or any of that stuff? No, no. Um that I should have done that. I should have done that. Hopefully you will not have the chance to do it again.
+
+[15:07] And now the other thing is did did uh did it come back uh slowly or or my memory serves it came back somewhat gradually over the course of like a week or something, right? Uh or even longer than that. I mean it was several months before it came back. Uh and then one day uh as I say, you know, I would try to make an effort to smell things. I would just kind of snort uh trying to get the air rushing through my nasal passages harder.
+
+[15:35] And uh one day I just noticed that there seemed to be a little bit of a hint of um uh flavor. I think it was again in my in my morning cup of coffee, and it would then just go away and I wouldn't get anything at all, and I was thinking, well, maybe I hallucinated it. Uh and uh over the course of several weeks, it slowly came back to the point where I didn't have to snort. I I would actually get it just by uh normal breathing. Huh.
+
+[16:07] Scary. So uh do you want to I actually have a question that you probably have some uh answers to. You want to stay on with me or do you have to scoot off? It's up to you. I could stay on for another ten, fifteen minutes or so.
+
+[16:19] Alrighty, here we go. I got a question in on uh Nastasia's uh favorite, and uh she didn't actually punk you with this, Peter, but Peter also likes it. We actually got a caller for uh you and Harold. All right, we'll we'll do that. We'll we'll take the caller first.
+
+[16:32] Cool. All right, caller, you are you are on the air. Good? I was wondering if there's any way to make cream unturnable. Unchurnable or unchurnable.
+
+[16:48] Harold, you know of anything? Uh unchurnable. Well, uh, I I mean uh starting with homogenized cream helps. That makes it a lot harder, but I think it it would still, you know, if you if you went at it hard enough, it would still it would still churn. I mean, c like you could probably stabilize the ever loving crap out of it, right?
+
+[17:13] I mean, if you were to dope it with uh I mean it's got what? It's uh 70, roughly 70% water, 66, 60, 65, six somewhere between sixty and seventy percent water in the cream that you have. So you could probably boil that a little bit to extract out some of the water, take pure water, hydrate some sort of uh like uh some sort of thickener, and maybe that would help protect it in the way that uh in the way that starch prevents um yolk from um uh from curdling when you when you cook it. I don't know, Harold. Do you think anything like that could help like sterically hinder the uh the um fat uh agglomerating or no?
+
+[17:58] Yeah, no, I think I mean the the f fat globules themselves are pretty stable to heat. So uh yeah, just uh putting enough interfering material in there to get in the way of the the globules touching each other, that's that would that would probably be it. Right. I mean you could probably turn the entire thing into a fluid gel, right? If you wanted to.
+
+[18:22] And then if you did that, I wonder whether or not um I wonder whether or not you could prevent it from uh I mean the texture would be weird, it wouldn't be cream, but uh you might be able to stop it from having the ability, because the individual I think that the particles that you would have, you know how big the uh fat globules are, like uh Harold, like like roughly in micrometers. I have no uh micrometer, I have no idea. I think it's on the order of ten. Uh un unhomogenized. Right.
+
+[18:52] So if you homogenize it smaller? Yeah. Okay. So the limits of your tongue are roughly twenty, right? Which means that uh if your fluid gel particles are somewhere between the order of ten and twenty, right, you should be able to lock a number of uh fat globules inside of the particles in the fluid gel and maybe prevent them from agglomerating because they they'll just be kind of trapped up in something that stays as a coherent unit.
+
+[19:24] That's just a this is a complete guess, right out of my right out of my behind. I have no idea, but it's uh something to try. Uh you know, what do you think, Harold? Is this any of this reasonable or no? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:34] No, that that that sounds reasonable. Sounds like a good experiment. Yeah, right. Um it's going in a proxy factory, so I don't know if the I'm sure the constant movement is gonna affect those uh the like fluidity of the fat in it at all. And that was my only concern.
+
+[19:49] Oh, if it's in a fact, if it's in a fact, yeah, sure you could just use uh some sort of steric inhibition or something uh stabilizer, but yeah, you'd have to worry about uh you'd have to worry about whether it's still gonna flow fluidly or not. The fluid gel will flow fluidly if it's a low enough fluid gel, but I think the the le the lower the concentration on the fluid gel, the more it's a regular liquid with some particles in it that are stabilizing it versus particles with some liquid around them, you know. Uh but again, this is you're you're stretching way back on my memory banks for how to dork with things. Yeah, um well I appreciate help guys. All right, let us know uh uh tweet on in, let's know uh what happens.
+
+[20:29] Ooh, look, and we're joined. We have which is like a full house here. We got Daniel Gritzer in, because I had a question later. Uh so Harold, so uh Daniel, how how do you Daniel have a seat? Uh this is a question.
+
+[20:39] Congratulations, thank you. Oh, what happened? What happened? He got married. Oh, he got married?
+
+[20:43] Oh, yeah. How's that? How the hell do you like being married? I like it. It's good.
+
+[20:47] Yeah, it's all good. All right, uh You know what else, Dave? What it's episode two hundred and fifty today. Yeah, nice. Nice nice even number.
+
+[20:55] Sorendipity here. Yeah, nice. It's a good way to celebrate two fifty. It is turn McGreat, man. Yeah.
+
+[21:01] Peter Kim. Oh, yeah, Peter Kim, yeah. Wow. Okay. So uh speaking of the Curious cook and the fact that you should republish it, Harold.
+
+[21:11] Uh, we have a question on uh and it's written this way Jerusalem Fartichokes. Jerusalem fartichokes. I will read the question. Uh this is from David in Ottawa. Uh we've been making uh confied jay chokes at the rest.
+
+[21:25] I like J chokes in the yeah, it's a good night. It's a great rap name or song. Yeah, Jay Chokes. Uh Nastasi, of course, uh listeners will remember that Nastasia once uh gastrointestinally poisoned her friends by feeding them quarts of uh mildly cooked Jerusalem artichokes in like a salad format at a picnic thing. Literally she knew no bathroom around anywhere.
+
+[21:52] Literally she knew that this was like, you know, uh fur fermentation, like uh you know, extravaganza gonna happen in their guts in the you know within the next couple of hours. The reason she knew is because she had done it to herself. Uh smiling right now. Yeah, she just so you know what I deal with, people. Anyway, uh basically we just uh poached the j chokes and clarified butter.
+
+[22:14] When we cook them, a sticky white scum floats to the surface. That's my next band, sticky white scum. Uh as the line cooks are wont to do, we ate some. It's uh sticky, sweet, sticky, and uh delicious. Here's the question Do you think this scum could just be purified uh uh these are in quotes, Harold.
+
+[22:31] Small chain uh fructosant and starch like inulin, uh that McGee uh describes politely as causing abdominal discuffer uh uh discomfort. When we ate it, there was no noticeable effect. But also, we're the kinds of people who eat the scum raft from the top of a pot of poaching j chokes. So perhaps we don't make the best control group. Uh any thoughts?
+
+[22:49] I guess I could munch down on a full glob of this stuff and see what happens, but I'd rather have an educated guess before risking uh dinner service ruinations. Regards, David, in um Ottawa. Okay. Well, it's interesting that they're poaching it in butter. I know you know inulin is really soluble in uh water, and that's why you know you say boil them in a big pot of water after you let them age uh for a while.
+
+[23:10] But you guys got any uh thought you got any thoughts on this, Harold, Mr. Inulin Man? Uh well, I mean, the uh scum rising to the top, that sounds to me like it's uh it's going to be probably as rich in stuff other than inulin. I mean proteins and uh you know surface active materials. Um, you know, my my sense is it's not gonna be especially uh enriched in stuff that's gonna cause trouble.
+
+[23:40] I mean it's well, yeah, except for Jerusalem Archokes themselves. I looked it up because I had the benefit of knowing that I was gonna be asked this question like you know, an hour or two ago. But it uh they're like 20% inulin or something crazy like that, right? They're like they're high inulin. And inulin itself forms uh or can in certain circumstances form a gel.
+
+[23:58] I didn't read it carefully, I didn't realize it was in butter. Um so that's a different that they're doing it in butter, so that the I mean obviously the scum flowing to the top is probably water soluble stuff expelled from the chokes, right? The other thing is is like you like everyone can tolerate a certain amount of this garbage. Not garbage, you know what I'm saying, in their system, right? It's a it's a soluble fiber.
+
+[24:19] That's the that's the dealy deal. It's soluble fiber, so you can't digest it. But the definition of fiber, I think basically is that you can't digest it, right? That's really it doesn't have to be fibrous, doesn't have to be uh a fiber, as long as it's oh my god, I just uh in my mind now I'm thinking of the sand lot because whenever I s fibr, fiber. You know for those of you know that you know the sand lot, David?
+
+[24:41] No, no, I'm missing the replica. Forever. You never seen this movie, Jack? Anyone seen this movie? Of course, forever, yeah.
+
+[24:48] Forever. Anyway, so the um point being that it goes into your gut, and then uh the microbes in your gut uh they can digest this stuff just fine. They produce a whole boatload of gas, and there you have it, right? But the more you eat of it, probably the more accustomed you get to it, the less of a big dose the your gut microflora get, and the more you can handle it. Wouldn't you say that's true, Harold?
+
+[25:10] Uh yes, that's that's certainly the the fact when it comes to uh beans, that's been studied in uh bean flatulins. Not not to my knowledge with uh inulin flatulins. The other thing to to know about the the particular bugs that you're feeding is that uh it's the befida bacteria that are especially fond of inulin and fructosans and things like that. And they're uh of of all the bugs in our gut, apparently the ones that are uh doing us the most good most of the time. So I actually think that you know, throwing a few slices of Jerusalem artichoke into your daily uh your daily diet is probably a really good idea.
+
+[25:55] Yeah, that's the those are the uh bacteria that they dope into Jamie Lee Curse's uh Jamie Lee Curtis's feminine poop yogurt, right? I uh uh don't know about that, but maybe it's activia, right? Is am I wrong about this? Yeah, uh huh. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:10] Uh I think that's what they do. I think that's what they put in. The uh I don't know why all it's only for women. Like why can't can't men also benefit from this? Is is there some sort of a gender no from the the the bacteria uh doped yogurt to make you poo?
+
+[26:25] Is there is is there an actual difference between the genders in the what the yogurt does to your body? We clearly we have not studied this. Yeah, this needs to be looked at. Clearly nobody knows. Stasi, do you know anything about this?
+
+[26:38] No. Have you seen the Kirsten Wig imitation of Jamie Lee Curtis pooping herself on Saturday Night Live? Um uh the other thing is is that um a lot of this is in small amounts, obviously this isn't gonna do much. It's if you gorge on this stuff and you're not used to it, is when you're really gonna have the uh the hammer come down on you, right? Exactly, yeah.
+
+[27:01] Yeah. And the the raw er, the the more likely that is. Yeah. So Peter Kim uh is using was using chicory root, which also is extremely high in inulin, uh for making uh tablets for the museum of food and drink, and originally we were worried about the dose level of um uh soluble fiber that these uh inulin these folks would be getting. So Peter graciously uh ate about fifteen times as many pills as the average guest could uh hope to consume, and what happened to you?
+
+[27:31] I got myself a stack of magazines and candles and had myself a nice little inulin piece. No, it's fine, man. It's fine. Yeah. And I'm uh basically we we uh did some calculations on what typical tolerance levels are for inulin and figured that even if a small child ate a hundred of these, they'd probably still be okay, so um and I indeed was all right.
+
+[27:51] So uh but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nice. Oh, here's a question I have for anyone that's ever thought about this. So uh where where else do we uh deal with inulin a lot?
+
+[28:02] Anyone, anyone? Any first of all, inulin inulin basically long chain fructose, okay? Long chain fructose. Let's just get that out of the way. So agave.
+
+[28:11] Yeah. Inulin, agave. And artichokes, right? Uh regular artichokes? I don't know.
+
+[28:17] I don't know. Chicory root, Drusal Martichokes, uh agave. But my point is, has anyone made a a distilled spirit with Drew Slam artichokes? Like a super long bake like you do for agave, for agave piñas, and then uh make them into a a a liquor. No, that sounds like a great idea.
+
+[28:40] Right? I think I know who's gonna do it too. Well, I don't know. Do you have a like the they grow in rather northern climbs, right? It's not a southern vegetable, isn't it?
+
+[28:48] Like isn't it can I grow it here? Yeah, yeah. Sure can. So I you know, like uh I don't have a ready access to it. Maybe I'll try it this year.
+
+[28:56] I'll try to mash some out and do some uh distillation. But anyone out there, I'm sure someone in the cooking issues uh world is that's just a kind of lunatic who's tried it. And so, like, you know, let me know. But I think uh that we could have a new distilled spirit on our hands. What would you what would you call that?
+
+[29:12] J chokes? J Fartka. Jade. Oh. Well, you remember you gotta defart it because you're gonna you're gonna be cooking the you're gonna be cooking the ever loving snod out of it.
+
+[29:22] Um anyway. I don't know. Sun sun liquor. Sun Sun booze. Why do they call it sunflower?
+
+[29:30] Sun Oh, they're related to sunflowers? Yeah, yeah. It's it's uh and it's a nat if if I'm remembering correctly, it's a native of one of the few food uh items that come from North America. There you go. It's our, you know, it's the north, it's the north part of North America, because remember Mexico's North America people.
+
+[29:50] Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's the north part of Northern America's native uh it's like Arigave. Only, you know, you don't have to wait so long to harvest it and I wonder whether I wonder whether there'll be a lot of big flavor differences between different I don't know if someone someone's if someone's done it and they're gonna be like Dave the reason no one makes is it tastes like garbage. It tastes like garbage that's why you know what I mean?
+
+[30:13] But we should probably have like a uh someone who's done a lot of the stilling of raw materials do it first so that we we you know get rid of the control of this person just doesn't know what the hell they're doing with distillation you know what I mean yep yeah anyway uh but I think it'd be much more interesting to do it the old school way actually cook it until it until you get sugar and then ferment it rather than because you can just hit it with enzymes and then that's it. You know what I mean? Also uh like uh inulin breakdown I was looking up today really really rapid at low pH right but the fact of the matter is uh you have to get below about pH four before the hydrolysis uh of inulin to fructose is very rapid um at normal uh cooking temperatures and who wants their Jerusalem artichokes to be you know more tart than a tomato yeah you know you know I mean doesn't sound right to me to so would you would you want that Harold I mean like hey you could speed it up by adding acid but uh on the other hand now all your Drusel artichokes taste like uh acid you know what I mean I don't know I don't know I usually fry mine in in Olestra myself dude don't be going off against Alestro have we had this conversation on the air already are you making me redo a conversation we've already had on the air seriously have we Jack do you remember me ever talking about Olestra I do. You do because you've heard you've lived you work with me in the real life. Have we talked about it on air?
+
+[31:35] Uh Jack stepped away, but I don't remember it. Yeah, well, we probably have. There's nothing wrong, but there are many things wrong with Olestra, like they bind fat-soluble vitamins, so you have to dope yourself with them because otherwise you poop out all the fat-soluble vitamins. But as long as you're using a solid Oestra, it's not going to run out of your behind without your knowing. Ellie in the chat room remembers.
+
+[31:57] That's a really easy. Yeah, yeah. I tell you, like, again, like briefly, that the reason people didn't like the Olestra potato chips was because they were made with hydrogenated fat and they tasted greasy. In fact, they and I've said this before on air, they had to develop a hot air curtain to blow the outside layer of fat off of the potato chips to reduce the greasiness because you're not supposed to fry potato chips in a hydrogenated fat. Not for health reasons, for taste reasons.
+
+[32:22] It just doesn't taste right. For the same reason that you're not supposed to fry a donut in a liquid fat because it just doesn't taste right. It tastes greasy. Do you like a greasy donut, Daniel? Well No, I don't I don't love greasy donuts.
+
+[32:35] Harold, greasy, you like a greasy donut? Nope. No. Didn't think so. Um hey, actually, I don't know, Harold, whether you've done it if you have time.
+
+[32:43] We uh we have uh another uh question that you might have uh done some work on. Um this is from I don't I don't have who it's from. Um I got a bread baking question. In particular, it's about the Tang Zong ru that is used to uh mix bri into a bread recipe to make fluffy bread. Now what we're talking about here is like the water roux where you pre-make a roux and then uh you mix it into the bread.
+
+[33:09] You know about this, Daniel? I don't. I don't I don't bake much, so this is new to me. It's been getting a lot of it's it's started out in the in the I guess the early 2000s, but it's been getting more and more play. You know the Asian style bread that is really fluffy and lasts a long time.
+
+[33:22] Harold, you you you've been following this or no? No, I have not. Yeah, all right. Well, so then we'll just I'll just go on. Okay.
+
+[33:28] So just so you know, what the the basic premise here it well, I'll read the question first. Um while I understand that it produces a fluffier and softer final bread product, could you explain the science of why the roux would have this effect on the bread? In the past, uh I've played with adding some milk into the bread to make it softer as well. How does this roux affect the bread versus just using milk in a recipe? Uh and preliminary research on the webs uh show stuff about superhydration.
+
+[33:55] Uh thanks for uh such a good podcast. Nice. Uh and by the way, uh oh, this is from Don uh Don Vo in Berkeley, California. He actually calls you out, Peter. He says, hello to Dave Nastasia, not Stas, Nastasia, Lopez, Jackie Molecules, and Peter's sandwich aficionado chem.
+
+[34:11] So Peter, you get the shout out on this as well. So basically, um what the the uh uh oh and also uh says uh got the BDX cube and he thinks it's fantastic and has made uh an improved clover club for him. Okay. So here's the here's the deal. You take and before but you take a portion of water, typically it's about five to one, so about five parts water, one part flour, and uh it's usually a real you know, not that large amount of the water, but the water, and you uh cook it like you're making a roux.
+
+[34:37] However, the traditional uh traditional, the way that it's written in recipes, originally everyone's like, oh, keep it to exactly 65 degrees uh Celsius, right? And um, so I made I haven't made didn't have a chance to make bread, but I made one that I took to 65 on the dot and one that I boiled just to see the the difference. Um so what happens is is you're partially when you take it to 65, you're partially pasting, uh partially swelling the starch, but you haven't completely s uh gotten all the sarch uh, you know, fully, you know, uh swelled with water and paste it out yet, right? And so uh what you're really doing is just adding a boat ton more water to the bread than you could do any other way. The same because if you had added that much uh water to it without pre-cooking it, you'd lack structure.
+
+[35:24] The water by pre-swelling the starch gives you enough structure to form the bread and allow it to cook properly uh without it um that's it. That's basically what it's doing. Wouldn't you guys agree just from the description I've given that that's what's happening? Undoubtedly. So it's like a super hydrated recipe.
+
+[35:42] Yeah. So you can so you know, you could take something and have the workability of like a 70 or 80% hydration uh dough, uh, but you could be hydrating it kind of much higher. Um now, I don't know what the difference is. I'm passing Harold, you can't do this. This is boiled after it's cooled, and this is basically uh so this is bo boiled and um this is the same ratio, and it's pretty much turned to a gel after it's uh gone back.
+
+[36:08] So that might be a hindrance to the dough. And then this here is the 65 degree, and that's still more like a pudding or or runny. They are different. They're very different. And so uh my feeling is folks, is that um don't bother.
+
+[36:23] What you're doing here is you're just allowing yourself to add more water to the dough. I mean, that's basically what you're doing, and maintaining the same workability. That's that's what's happening here. There might be some other like fancy Dan stuff that's happening when it's uh not fancy Dan to grids, but you know, fancy Dan. Uh the um uh as it's as it's coming up, but that's basically what's happening.
+
+[36:42] As for the temperature, I don't think you have to be too anal because it the f the wheat starch is just gonna start um swelling and pasting uh when it hits about 60, 65 C. So if you just take it off as soon as it goes super like uh thick, put like as soon as it starts to thicken up on you, you're gonna be good. Uh because you you know, I I really wouldn't worry that much uh about you know, and also if you're gonna cool it for a long time, I don't know whether or not you're working on the fact that it's retrograding to get the extra structure or you're getting what's called starch setback to add extra structure, in which case maybe it would make a difference uh if you heated it longer or not. These are all interesting subjects, but I'd have to actually bake some bread to figure that out, and I didn't have time to do that uh this morning. I'm just as curious about the use of the word roux here.
+
+[37:31] I think of a roux you're cooking flour in a fat, but uh this is essentially is any roux like a s a a slur a flour s slurry that is then cooked, whether it's in a water or a fat. Not that I know of, Harold. Do you know of uh the the why they use this kind of you can you any guesses on this terminology? Or I think Daniel is right that a roux is flour cooked in fat. Yeah.
+
+[37:54] Not not in water. And then added to, and then liquid added to it to and then presumably the cooking in fat, right, is to prevent clumping when you add the liquid. I mean, the only purpose of the fat, right, is to prevent clumping. That's all it's doing, right? Is there any other reason for it other than it allows you to evenly heat the flour up to a higher stage of cooking?
+
+[38:15] Oh, I I bet it makes a difference for the flavor. You know, uh even a neutral oil, you're you're gonna get uh reactions to take place that wouldn't happen if it was just dry heat. In uh yeah. Okay. Fair so different flavor from adding the oil afterwards.
+
+[38:33] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah, fair enough.
+
+[38:37] Um, yeah. Anyway. Uh and this also, obviously, you could do this with non wheat starches and all sorts of other things, as other people have done it. It's an interesting uh thing. So it's worth uh it's worth some uh experimentation.
+
+[38:49] Uh now, uh I don't know, uh Harold, if you have to if you have to go or if you can stay. Uh, but uh we got a question. Daniel wrote a uh article on uh nixtimalization for the serious seeds, correct? What's your current title there anyway? Oh, culinary director.
+
+[39:03] Culinary director, okay. And you wrote an article on niximalization, very kindly actually gave a shout out to an article I had written along. Well, yeah, because I I I used I used it heavily for information. So um for those of you that don't know, nixtimalization is the process uh by which you um cook, you can do it with other grains actually, but you par you parcook corn in uh in an alkaline environment. Um parkook in an alkaline environment, it dissolves the uh the coat on the outside of the corn, partially dissolves it, you partially then rub that off.
+
+[39:40] It changes the taste, it changes the reality of it. Uh originally it was designed to allow you to be able to grind corn uh easily by hand on a stone thing called a matate, but it is the reason that cornmeal doesn't taste like a tortilla, and that a tortilla tastes like a tortilla is the process of nixtimalization. It's also the uh the changes that the corn goes through in terms of partial cooking of the starches, going back to what we were talking about with this with this rue, whatever you want to call it, bread technique, and uh the change of the outside of the seed coat into uh some form of weird hydrocolloid, plus the addition of the fat from the germ because it's a whole corn kind of a situation. All of that together makes masa, which is what makes an awesome tortilla. Uh normally it is a uh a pain in the butt to make.
+
+[40:23] Daniel, you posted a recipe where you used a food processor, and what was your secret? I know what it is. I'm just asking you to ask is your right. So I mean the big challenge for people at home is is grinding the corn properly. Um and uh lot uh you know you can try a food processor, but that comes with its own challenges.
+
+[40:41] Mainly that in order to get everything in the food processor to to spin sufficiently enough to grind it to a point where you can form tortillas, you have to add too much water to the mix, and then you have uh then you have a masa that's that's far too wet uh and almost bordering on a batter type consistency. Actually more like a hummus, think of like a like hummus. Uh you can't really make tortillas from that. So then basically adding uh adding some masa arena, masa harina uh uh back in, which is which is the store-bought convenience product of of uh of of masa that what do they do? They they they dry it somehow and turn it into a flour.
+
+[41:20] They yeah, they have a large production line where they have like continuous basically nixtimalization, it goes through a soap tank, then they uh then they I think I don't know I think they dry it and grind it. I don't think that they Harold, do you know? I don't think that they wet I don't think they wet grind it and then and then dry it. I think they dry it and then grind it. Hmm.
+
+[41:43] Yeah, I'm not sure. So maybe like ground postole or something like that. Yeah. So like dried. Yeah.
+
+[41:49] But not hasn't been already been re it hasn't been reboiled up to the large yes, but yes, the um I think that's how they do it. I don't know. I used to know. But uh, you know, it's been a uh a long time. I mean the ma look uh as you point out in your article, like just buying maseka, you look it's Mazzarina, maseka is like the brand name that you know that that everyone gets.
+
+[42:09] Quaker also makes one. Uh there's a there's a bunch of people that make them. And it is a large step above um a large step above um buying uh pre-made tortillas. Yeah. Like once you heat a tortilla and let it cool down again and then put it in your fridge, you have lost.
+
+[42:31] You've lost. Yeah, they're horrible. They're good for frying. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can fry them up.
+
+[42:35] Yeah, they're good for frying. They're good, yeah. You know, f fry 'em, make chili kiles, do something like this, but like for like actually eating, no freaking bueno, right? Uh now they masa jarina is, you know, or maseka is a very is good. It's much better than a pre made tortilla, which most of the pre made tortillas that you are getting are first insult is they're made with maseka.
+
+[43:00] And the second one is that they have cooked them like a week ago and added a bunch of stuff so that it can sit basically at room temperature fundamentally, molding in its own like plastic container. Yeah, you ever notice that sometimes they smell like ammonia? Yeah, because they're they're all doped up with stuff to stop them from going off on you. But that's you know, all of those smells go away when you fry 'em. That's why that those are the only chips I use for frying.
+
+[43:23] There's no excuse to buy tortilla chips in i pre fried tortilla chips. They're not as good. And they're really freaking expensive. Right. Unless you need a a lot.
+
+[43:37] I mean, I could see an argument if you were doing a party and you need to fill a huge chip bowl for your guac with, you know. But that's when I start frying, is when I do that. Because like think about it this way you're buying uh a 20-ounce bag of like medium quality tortilla chips is gonna run you like four something dollars, I think, at a store, right? And you you could buy one of those like well over like there I forget how much those stacks of tortillas are, but they're over twenty way over twenty ounces, right? And they're thicker, better, and uh they're like a dollar.
+
+[44:13] And it's so fast to fry them. I most of my home frying now in Connecticut I have my deep fryer, but you know, at home home, I do most of my frying and wok. The reason is is um oil expansion is a lot less dangerous in a walk because it's constantly increasing its diameter as it goes up. So people, as long as you don't overfill your walk, you have a lot of safety room on oil expansion when you're working. And tortillas are the most forgiving thing on earth to fry because all you're trying to do is expel the water and get them crunchy.
+
+[44:44] So you oil oil and wok. I think I've said this before, too. Take the tortillas out, do the back break, snack, knacks, break them, individually separate them, cut them in six, fry them, done. Like I could crank out in under 20 minutes, I could have you know, big shopping bags, uh 30, you know, but like shopping bags full of tortilla chips. It's way really like it's one of the few things at home that I would recommend frying at home is much easier than doing uh any other way.
+
+[45:10] Um but anyway, the point is is that uh someone asked me, should I try this recipe that you wrote? And my answer is yes. It's like, is it worth making like making your own Nixtamall, the Nixamal part's not hard, it's the grinding that's a pain in the butt. Definitely. Uh I mean maybe the hardest part aside from the grinding uh issue is is just getting the the corn.
+
+[45:31] Oh, yeah, buying the corn. You look, you can't, it's not easy, it's harder even to grind. You can literally try it at home with popcorn. It's not as good, but it is doable. It's doable?
+
+[45:41] Yeah. Oh wow. Uh it's harder even to grind, and they and the endosperm to to skin ratio is not is not ideal. But to just to try it once, you can. I've done it.
+
+[45:53] The so yeah, but you said you can get the corn now on Amazon, no? Yeah, oh yeah, you totally can. It's just like a 25-pound bag. It's a lot of corn. But you know, I I think if you look around there, there are sources, especially I think even at farmers markets now where you have these people selling, you know, their fancy little bags of of grain, you might be able to find it or yeah, online sources, or I don't know, get go in it, go in on it with a friend and divvy up a large bag.
+
+[46:22] I mean, the other thing is it keeps forever as long as you keep it in good condition. So it's now you're gonna make me say it forever. I gotta go, I have to see this uh. Um but anyway, uh the hard part is really grinding. If you try to grind, it you just can't grind at the right texture in a food processor, even like you know, as the motor is about to burn out, you can't do it.
+
+[46:42] It's just like a nightmare. So I think it's entirely legitimate uh to do your nixtimalization and then uh over wet grind it and dope it back with like masa. So like for a like how much moss are you adding back typically? It depends it really depends how much water you add to the food processor, and I was eyeballing it every time because it just I don't know, didn't seem like it needed to be so precise. Even if I got that precise, someone else has different corn, it's gonna have different requirements.
+
+[47:08] Yeah. Um so it depends, but I would say uh I'm guessing maybe you end up it's ballpark a quarter to a third uh maseka, masa jarina, and the rest is your freshly nixtimalized uh masa, and I and you get you really do get that fresh nixomal flavor, even with the addition of the masa jarina to soak up that excess moisture. All right, so we're about to get kicked off here, but let me just uh say a couple things on the way out. Thank you, uh Harold for uh coming uh on the uh the show. Thank you, uh Daniel and Peter.
+
+[47:45] I didn't know Peter was gonna be on. Uh you get uh uh a limited edition cooking issues uh blue tape key ring there, Daniel, and hashtag always label. You can fill that up. That's many that's feet of blue tape. And then when you're when you're done with it, you pull this uh quick pin out and this fits.
+
+[48:02] And it blows up? Yeah, this fits on the on the hex drive of like a uh a you know uh a drill bit like a like a Philips Ed thing, and then you can refill it with tape and you're good to go again. Uh so thanks for coming on and talking about nixtimal and many things. Thanks, Harold. Thanks, uh, thanks, Peter.
+
+[48:18] A couple tips on the masa. Masa is a uh whole grain, so there is fat in it, so store it like it might go rancid. In other words, don't keep it forever after you've opened it. Do you ever had that problem uh anyone, anyone? Like like if you have it for years open, it's gonna take a musty kind of rancid note to it.
+
+[48:36] You mean the flour? Yeah, the mas the masseca, the the masa jarina. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't open it and then leave it on your shelf for the rest of time. That's a good tip. I I don't I don't know that I've ever this is the guess.
+
+[48:46] I've I've smelled some old stuff and it started smelling cardboard y to me, and then I pitched it and got and got new. Uh also don't be too quick to add the water in the food processor, let it grind and add in small increments because a little bit of water goes a long way. You agree with me on that? Yeah, I sure, for sure. All right, thanks everyone.
+
+[49:04] Coming back next week with cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[49:36] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm. For more information, visit nettle meadow cheese and spirits.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:21] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brrrr Brooklyn every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1250. Have with me today the okay, so first of all, got Jackie Molecules, thank goodness, is in the booth.
+
+[0:50] We don't have him for that much longer in the booth because he's gonna go out uh, you know, touring on the road there. How you doing, Jack? I'm good. You know who you don't have in the studio today? Two people that we don't have in the studio today that we're supposed to have in the studio are Nastasia DeHammer Lopez.
+
+[1:04] Now, Nastasia, uh her sister graduated from uh Yale this week. Congrats. Yeah, congrats. So uh she uh was driving back from Connecticut and uh the hydraulic clutch in the car she borrowed from her buddy. Who who lives in New York and has a uh uh a stick shift?
+
+[1:20] It's freaking. It's really funny you bring that up because I'm looking for somebody with a stick shift because I have to drive stick in Iceland and I don't know how. I can't find anybody with a stick shift in New York. You know why? To prove your boys, yeah, right.
+
+[1:30] Exactly. It gets you off the when a light turns green. You're always the first one to, you know, if you have to vie with another car for position. If you have a stick shift, even if it's like a VW bug, you will beat any top of the line sports car with the acceleration from first to second. Boom, you can you just go back to the code.
+
+[1:47] What about what about when you're stop and go on the FDR? Then you get like hip problems over many years. Yeah, anyway. So what I'm saying is so it it burns out, and so she's not she's not here right now. I think I think uh she lost hydraulic pressure.
+
+[1:59] It's a hydraulic uh clutch in the car that she was driving. Anyways, uh but is she okay? Yeah, yeah, she's fine. Like she's changing. She didn't get hit or no, no, she's pulled off the side of the road.
+
+[2:08] Uh what was not working, the accelerator, the brake? No, so if you're if you so the hydraulic system on the on the clutch, if you basically if there's a leak in the system, it just leaks pressure the and the clutch pedal falls to the floor. Now ordinarily you can still kind of get moving. Um she smelled burning, which at first she thought was the the plate actually burning during driving, but you know, after further thinking, we we think it's probably the uh burning oil that was leaking out that she was smelling. Um but you you a lot of times with a hydraulic clutch when it goes, you can you can get it to run.
+
+[2:37] You just can't use the clutch, but you can get it to run and go, but she wasn't able to get it to go. But here's the good part. So for those of you that know our section of the country, the East Coast, uh I-95 is the road that runs. It's it's a flaming sack of crap. It's it's there's usually two or three trucks on fire at any given time.
+
+[2:57] Often literally a flaming sack of crap, yes. Uh so anyway, so for those of you that drive like through Connecticut along I-85 or the merit, I-95 or the merit, there is a town with a sign that I love. It's my anus. And my anus is gonna say this. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:13] It's next to Koscob. So you can literally do like cornhole myanus jokes constantly. And whenever there's traffic in in my anus, I never ever stop fail to say, heavy traffic through my anus. Oh like every single time. Even if it's just my dog in the car with me, I say it every time.
+
+[3:30] So literally, her car, she had a breakdown in my anus. Oh wow, what are the chances? Yeah, that's good. She's gonna be the butt of a lot of the jokes, that's for sure. Oh nice, nice thought.
+
+[3:44] Nice. So uh instead of uh Nastasia, we have uh our fearless leader, Patrick Martins here. I will be like Nastasia, I will say next to nothing. Wow. And make scary faces.
+
+[3:55] Boom. Uh now, who we don't have uh in the studio right now, and I tweeted out twice that he would be here, so hopefully he will arrive. I don't know, Jack, maybe we can try to call him on the telephone and see what's up. We'll put the search team out for the case. Yeah, put the put the search team out of the year.
+
+[4:10] Now, Jack, do you have a connection to Mr. Leahy through a certain babysitting gig? Is this well let's tell the people who it is first? We got Jim Leahy, supposed to be here right now. Jim Leahy is uh the guy who started uh Sullivan Street bakery over over 20 years ago now, I think.
+
+[4:25] Yeah, we have no need for Jim today. But we'll get to that in a minute. This is like pun central right here going on. But the uh so the the point is is that um you know, for those of you that are, you know, my age or so, like you know, in your forties, you can remember what New York was like when the bread here pretty much sucked. I mean, there were people who baked good bread, but like in general, the bread game in New York.
+
+[4:49] It was Wonder Bread in the mid 70s. I mean, the first guy on the Upper East Side, which is a very wealthy neighborhood, was Eli Zabar. He had a place called EAT on 80th and Madison, and that was the first place that really baked uh, you know, fresh bread, you know, past a few loaves at a kind of uh cookie store or something like that. But yes, you could not find fresh bread, even in New York City back then. No, I mean then in the nineties you had like uh I guess was I guess when he started, right?
+
+[5:14] The nineties? No, uh well, Elizabeth was uh I think in 80 oh uh Jim. Jim Sullivan Street. Twenty, twenty-five years, I think. Yeah, I mean, at the same time you had like Amy's starting.
+
+[5:23] Remember Amy's Amy's bread started around the same time on the street. Sarah Betts Kitchen was a kind of area, but I don't know if they sold loaves to go. Anyway, Amy's Amy's had a wholesale and uh and a retail. Um Amy's famous bread was the cornmeal one with raisins in it. Oh yeah, I used to get that on Saturday, because I used to live right by her bakery.
+
+[5:39] Anyway, point is is that back in the day nowadays you it used to be when you traveled to New York, you're like, hey, it's a great town. Bread sucks. You know what I mean? Seriously, like you would say that. You would expect that the bread you got on the table at a restaurant would suck.
+
+[5:52] You would expect that the bread you would get out at uh uh a place, even a cheese shop, you'd expect I mean don't even start on the cheese shops, you would expect that they would suck, right? And it was like Tuscany over here. Well, which is what we're supposed to be talking about today. But so anyway, so Jim Jim Leahy was one of the uh kind of early people making decent bread here in uh in New York and Sullivan Street. I remember was a a revelation when I had it the first time I went there in the in the nineties, uh mid mid-90s, I guess, I had their Bianca, their pizza bianca, and it was the only thing like what I had had over on my honeymoon in Italy.
+
+[6:26] It was uh it was good stuff. Anyway, so very crusty bread, right? Uh for the most part. What his breads, yeah. Oh, so like the stuff his signature breads he's known for now are probably like the Pulliesi style, the filoni, which is the huge one, and the semi de sesimo, which is the basically Pulesi with sesame seeds all over the outside, which is my personal favorite.
+
+[6:45] So these are the signature breads that you'll see a lot at a lot of restaurants, and there's a you know, he they had a split, so there's another bakery, another couple of bakeries that make his particular style of bread here in New York. He became famous generally among you know folks, people, uh, for uh his no need with a K, not no need to bake bread. Like there's no necessity to bake bread. He needs to do that. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:07] But uh a no need, uh no need, which is, you know, my editor actually, Marie Guanar Shelley did his book also at Norton, and she's the one that came up with the tagline underneath it, no work, no need, no work bread. So it sold more bread books than anyone's ever sold in the past. Because it was like bread, no work, bread? What? You know what I mean?
+
+[7:25] And so they sold so many of these things. Um but the the guy oh did did he did he did he get here? No. No, no, no. We're gonna look for him though.
+
+[7:35] So the um anyway, the point being that he kind of uh championed this uh this style, uh which I don't you know, I actually don't know where he came up with it, whether it was taught to him or or what. If he ever shows up, we'll ask him. I think he is a self-made man. I think he learned it all myself. Although I'm saying that with no knowledge of the issue whatsoever.
+
+[7:53] I think it's a self-made man. But you say but you have no actual knowledge of the cooking issue. None whatsoever. Yeah. So the uh so, anyways, the the point being is uh very influential uh person in the world of bread.
+
+[8:05] In fact, uh you know, most people I know so first of all, there's there's two things that happen. This this no need thing came at a time when a lot of people, especially uh pizza people that I because I don't know as many bet bread bakers as I knew, kind of people who in the kind of pizza world, they you know were shifting to extreme long fermentations and retarding of dough when they're when they're making it. Uh and um obviously the longer you let something rise, the less you need to need, right? And so I think that we've all shifted towards this kind of a lot of people have shifted towards these longer time format breads with less needing and less w less work, because the only thing it takes is a little bit of foresight. So why do they do it?
+
+[8:46] Just for the work issue or for a gastronomic reason as well. In other words, no, no, no. No, I mean look, the thing about the the no the no-need style, and I wish he was you know here to like talk about it, he hopefully will be, is the um is that if you just let the bread rise for a long time, two things happen. One, the the longer, like a short ferment means that you have a lot of uh yeast in it, right? And so this tends to produce a relatively um single simple profile taste, right?
+
+[9:16] Because there's uh less kind of uh the the yeast yeast is doing less to work on the base product, which is the flour. So the longer you you raise, uh the longer it takes to to um ferment, usually the more complicated complex the flavor is. And more the flour has a chance to express itself. That's an interesting way. See, this this is this is why Patrick Martins was the founder of Slow Food USA, because he comes up with these poetic terms like the flour expressing himself.
+
+[9:40] You know what I mean? It's like for me, I'm like such a technical head, like you know, I don't do the you know the the poetic that's why we should come more often, give you the the poetry of the flower. Slow food, yeah. Well we play each other up. Remember our sizzle together?
+
+[9:52] We did good. We played. I'm like the old school guy, you're like the new school guy. Yeah, yeah. I got a caller if we want to do that while we wait.
+
+[9:58] Uh uh, okay, caller, you're on the air. Caller, caller you there. You're on the air. Oh, hey, sorry about that. Um as a former cook and uh current restaurant manager, I get a lot of questions about gluten-free and gluten-friendly.
+
+[10:15] And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about um how that breaks down under high heat specifically in pizza ovens or deep fryers and deep fryers. You mean how gluten-free, how gluten-free coatings work in frying? Well, so like if I'm putting items into a deep fryer that are not gluten-free, like how does that gluten that comes off those items break down in the fryer, if at all? Oh, I gotcha. Uh so you're worried about the fact that you use the same fryer for your regular products as you use for your gluten-free stuff.
+
+[10:51] Um, the bread's here, by the way. You know what? I've never thought about it before. My guess is that it's not uh a problem because the the gluten uh while it's not really water soluble, I also don't think it's oil soluble. I think it's just non-soluble.
+
+[11:10] So I don't think you're gonna soluble the gluten in uh in your in your fat oil. You do get particles, so it all depends on how clear your uh you know your fat is. But I I would guess that your main problem is going to be a straight up uh straight up contamination. So if you're having um straight up contamination product problems, but you know, assuming in in a commercial frying situation, you're frying in a tube fryer that has a cold zone, and most of that stuff is sifting down to the bottom of your fryer anyway. So I would say, and considering the fact that that gluten, um, even like straight up celiac, oh my god, Jim brought my favorite oil.
+
+[11:47] How the hell did you know that was my favorite oil? What is wrong with you? Um the uh from DiPalos, my favorite place on earth. Oh my goodness. To conclude, the good news is you never have to wash your fryer.
+
+[11:57] No, no, no, no, no. So my point is is that uh most people's responses to gluten is uh are are mediated. In other words, it's in other words, it's like it's not that like it's not that a tiny amount of uh gluten is going to wipe them out. Uh but that said, I think that if you're worried about it, it's always prudent to add this kind of thing fried in a fryer that also fries items with gluten. And then you're gold.
+
+[12:20] You know what I mean? Like push it back on. In other words, like I wouldn't be worried that you're actually gonna hurt somebody, but I would also push it back onto the consumer so that you're not trying to hide anything from them. I think that's always the safest way to go. What uh what do you what do you think?
+
+[12:35] Anyone? Um yeah, it's sounds good. I mean, I didn't I wasn't too worried about it, but I didn't have a very good answer for people that were gonna ask me either. Yeah, I mean the fact of the matter is is that I mean you know, look, a lot of people have never cooked before, so they don't really understand how it works. They've never fried before.
+
+[12:50] So it's true. When you're frying something that, you know, especially if you do any dry fry stuff uh that's not a batter, like even a battery you're throwing stuff off of the batter stuff when it when it especially when it first goes in. But anyone who's ever fried before knows that there's extra pre-dust on the outside, there's extra stuff. It's usually a lot of fried items, aren't a straight liquid batter. And even in a straight liquid batter, let's say you're going tempura on on it, right?
+
+[13:14] You're getting all those little blebs of crap that fry off. And I don't know anyone on earth who's ever fried anything that hasn't gotten a piece of the last fry occasionally in their life stuck onto the fry that they have now, right? I mean, come on, let's be honest. But the fact of the matter is it's a small amount, I think as long as you're and if you know you're frying something that is gluten-free, you can be pretty scrupulous about the skim beforehand. And once the stuff is skimmed, all the rest of the stuff falls to the bottom of the cold zone, and uh, you're not gonna do the person uh I don't think uh any any any harm.
+
+[13:44] Red? Okay, anyone? Anyway, so uh thanks for that. But now we we have to talk about uh the bread. And if you have any no-need bread questions, we have what?
+
+[13:57] Oh my god, he comes in, he brings but now he has to pee. You like this is all right, so we'll we'll we'll we'll hold off. I'll I'll fill any more bread questions. What? Before we talk, I'll wash my hands.
+
+[14:11] Okay, okay. He's gonna, even though he's not an employee of Roberta's gym later. He's still gonna wash his hands. Well, you say he's not gonna wash his hands? He will wash his hands.
+
+[14:19] He's in no urine facility. Uh his bread has no urine in it. Which is great. Okay, so no patina virine. This happens to the label.
+
+[14:28] If this is the oil that I'm thinking of. Why is it your favorite? That's so because of the breed of olive, of course. It's the favorite. So here's what happens.
+
+[14:35] Every year, it's not oil's an agricultural crop. So it goes up and down. It goes up and down and changes. So for a bunch of years, my favorite oil was uh made by uh I forget the guy's name was um starts with a G. Like he used to make the oil for Fontana Salsa, which was the supplier in Sicily that made this mix of Nocholara, um uh my God, what was the other one?
+
+[14:59] No Cholara and two other olives that they grow in in Sicily, and that was like my favorite oil because I like I I'm heavy on I like green, I like like herby, grassy green with a lot of bite, typically, not always, but anyway, so like and so whenever I go to uh buy a new thing of uh oil, of like finishing oil or eating oil, I'm just like, hey, what do you got that I like? And like this is one of the ones, I think if it's the one I'm thinking of, this is um where do you shop for your oil? I used to go to Fairway because I always loved Steve Jenkins, but I don't think he does anything with Fairway anymore. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. Yeah, I know he doesn't.
+
+[15:36] Yeah, fairway has changed. I mean, then they just find out. Yeah, file for bankruptcy, too. For real? Yeah.
+
+[15:42] Well, I thought they were still expanding. But they're not closing somehow it was a restructuring, but they did file for bankruptcy. That's good. Um so it's um it's uh I buy it at DePalos. Listen, if you're ever in New York City, right, and you like Italian products, then you have to go to DiPalos on uh on Grand Street and Mott.
+
+[16:07] I mean they've been there for eight million years. Well, like 90. They they moved across the street is as far as as far as they went. And um But I always ask Ann, my wife who's a cheesemonger, if if uh their European cheeses are the best of their kind. Are they there?
+
+[16:23] Because I mean some of these old historic places, they don't get the best cheeses that you're producing. In other words, it's like it's like the best DiPos will get the best that is legally legally available. Okay. Like Lou and Sal and Marie, who are the for the you know, the most of the family that runs along with their wives, the kids, and the cousins, and and Renee, which is another guy there who works there. They're have this thing where they don't like to break the law.
+
+[16:49] And so, unlike a lot of other uh cheese folks, they won't like on the sly bring in stuff that's not legal or not. Raw milk or yeah, yeah. They also like will never lie to you. They'll also never sell you a product that's over the hill. So, like the fact of the matter is, and you know what's coming in today, the D'Palos.
+
+[17:03] I don't know if I'd known you were going. Do you know the Marcellin's in today? No, it's not. Oh, it's not in? That's what I was going for.
+
+[17:08] Oh, really? The Marcellino? Oh. Am I on? I wanted the Marcelino, right?
+
+[17:13] That's what I was going for because I realized that in order to show off this really mediocre example of Tuscan bread. And by mediocre example of Tuscan bread, I mean it's just like you would get in Tuscany. So mediocre and so to to understand the bread, you have to understand the cuisine that's that it's that it functions for, that it lives for it. So I I think that's my approach. Now, on a scale of one to ten, I would I would rate this for my tusk, my best Tusking game, like a four.
+
+[17:44] Wait, so what's your best Tuskin game rate? Well, like I would say I'm very well I mean I'm you know, if I can get a seven on any loaf of bread, I'm really happy. I'm very contented. An eight or nine is is, you know. Sometimes happens, but you know, I mean at the end of the day, as we all know in the food business, it's all about consistency, right?
+
+[18:06] Yeah. And as we all know, good cooks, good bakers, all hate themselves. Oh come on, please. No, because you ha you you never think you never think he just hates you, dude. You never think for the same thing.
+
+[18:16] You never think you're perfect. You never you never think you've reached anything. Wait we we can always there's always room for improvement. It's like that last cocktail that you just mixed. That you were you were you know, you you taste and you're like, you know, I just gotta like put a little bit more vermouth in that in that uh in that uh um give me a vermouth drink, uh David.
+
+[18:36] Martini. A martini. Yeah, you're uh my fucking bag. So why why can't you duplicate a nine all the time? Before we get this, two things.
+
+[18:44] One people want to know is the character in trailer park boys named after you? Wait, I'm gonna do one thing real quick. I like the That's the bread being sliced. And two, don't go through your knee. Oh my god.
+
+[19:01] Special special time that's ever happened in the studio. So the uh oh my god, you know what? They do you remember like in college when those people who'd never sliced bagels before started slicing bagels and they would slice the bagel into their hand and bleed all over everything? Yeah. Awesome touch.
+
+[19:16] And listen, I learned I learned uh to have incredible respect for meat slicers at the age of 15, because I cut my fingertip off. Oh, yeah, yeah, me too. The only real damage I've done, yeah, I did uh thumb into the meat slicer once. Slide down, boom. It's because I was on the cell phone, though.
+
+[19:32] It was my fault. And and never use a knife that's dull. That's a worse. To try to take out an avocado pit. Oh, what you glance off?
+
+[19:39] No, I I I I I cut cut my thumb wide open. Ah, because it the knife didn't go, the blade didn't hit the seed. Right. Bounced off and then took a chunk of my my my my head off. Okay, so let me set this up real quick.
+
+[19:51] So we're at the Museum of Food and Drinks benefit and MoFad and Patrick and Jim are at the same table, and they were arguing over who was the straight man in the team. And that which is kind of like an interesting thing. And I said, hey, uh, you know, your your I love your bread, obviously. Uh have for a long time. Uh don't you think Tuscan bread sucks?
+
+[20:12] And because expecting a yes, because everyone thinks it sucks because it contains no salt. Yeah. It's like nobody I said I said nobody likes Tuscan bread. Tuscans don't like Tuscan bread. The epicenter of where dining at tables began, ground zero, as far as his uh food historians know, of where the ritual uh ritualized meal of everyone sitting around a table was born.
+
+[20:36] Also the Italian language itself was born out of Tuscany. A lot came out of that place. I forgot. So you guys can't see uh what I'm uh looking at, but this looks like a Tuscan loaf, i.e. the crust looks terrible and the crumb is not nearly as nice as the normal crumb in the Sullivan Street bread.
+
+[20:56] You have to qualify your your your your your language at the end of the day, it's beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yeah, it's it's okay, let me put it this way. I won't say anything. It is it is is sallow and dry looking. But but it's but by the way.
+
+[21:10] It's like on a mop. It like it sucks uh sauce up. It's also duty. Consider it this. I mean, this did not ferment.
+
+[21:16] This is an organic wheat from a small mill in Minneapolis called Sunrise Flower Mill. And I I didn't, I'm not used to working with it. It's not like my uh I don't work with this flower. I was sent a sample of some wheat for Mofab, um, which which it which it went into those loaves that we made for the event. But delicious.
+
+[21:38] Wow, and I and I've had that seed. And I missed my mark by about 20 minutes to a half an hour in terms of ideal fermentation, which would have made uh a real big difference in terms of what you see in terms of the crumb structure. However, that being said, when you eat bread in Tuscany, and if it's made from local grain, and this is also an argument about the aesthetics of bread and our expectations about bread, especially bread made in a local or regional grain economy, where the quality of the wheats are not going to be um consistent from season to season, and oftentimes, especially with weather like we have today, when it occurs in like August or September during harvest season, uh harvest harvest periods will most likely lead to wheat that has uh uh a a lesser quality protein uh in terms of its ability to ferment because when there's humidity, you end up uh on on dry wheat stalks, uh you oftentimes end up with like incidental uh germination, and that germination destroys the quality. It doesn't doesn't cut into the percentage of protein in the flour and isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's natural.
+
+[22:55] It's what really occurs when you you really farm and you're not spraying glyphosate in your crops two weeks before harvesting to kind of make them more sellable, you know. Which is so charmingly inconsistent, you would say. Do you ever b bake with germinator sprouted grains? Um sometimes for f for like you know for my own head, man. You know?
+
+[23:19] Am I allowed to just taste this as is or something? Yeah, I mean we can taste it as is. Do I need a spiel to make us taste good? I don't want to like, oh, this is grown in like, you know, some like farm uh upstate New York in the in the Champlain River Valley and da da duh, whatever. I mean, I could go off on this whole fucking story, but at the end of it's a family show.
+
+[23:39] I'm sorry, is it? No more kind of thing. Family show. Is it? I have a collar on the line.
+
+[23:44] For Jim. For gym actually. Okay, I'm in the wrong place. We have a collar on the air, but before the collar gets on, let me just give I'll give you the taste description. Do I need to put this?
+
+[23:52] Yeah, put it on. Put it on so you can hear. This is it's it's it's more fermented than most Tuscan loaves I've had. Now it's got a higher uh turn. Can you turn the headphones up on Jim's I think?
+
+[24:01] It turn it down. Oh turn it down. It's more um it's it's got more acidity than most of Tuscan loaves that I've had. And true to form, it tastes like it needs some freaking salt in it. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[24:13] Yeah, well, there is I would say I was just calculated just calculating. There's about a um a third of one percent of salt. So isn't isn't even a percent of salt uh but based on the the batch, maybe even uh a tenth of a percent of salt in the dough. And what's your normal salt percentage? Um breads in general that we're used to eating anywhere from a percent and a half to two and a half sometimes.
+
+[24:43] Are you part of that more modern two and a half percent? I'm more a percent and a half. I'm I'm not a one percenter, but I'm more in the a percent and a half. I I I like to taste the grain. And were you a one percenter, would you be a Wall Street one percenter or a motorcycle gain one percent or I mean it's well here's the thing, there's it's really not the one percent, it's the one-tenth.
+
+[25:02] I'm gonna sound I'm gonna sound like Bernie Sanders now. It's the one-tenth of the of the one percent that control 48% of the wealth of our nation. And you didn't realize you're gonna have Bernie Sanders in person, right? You can you also do the uh the art mark? Can you also do the artvark from the Ant-Li Ardvark cartoon?
+
+[25:18] I forgot. There's a there's a colour, there's a colour. I don't want to miss a caller, you're on the air for Jim. Hi, uh Jim and Dave. This is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa.
+
+[25:27] Dude. How's it going? Good. How are you? Doing well.
+
+[25:31] Uh so I'm I've been baking a lot of bread and uh uh both kind of straight Levant style or whatever term you you like to use, and then also hybrid using, you know, incorporating some commercial yeast. And uh specifically been interested in in trying to manipulate how the the starter or the ferment is is fed, held, what hydration it's kept at. Uh because there's a lot of there are a lot of claims out there, let's say, about uh how that will affect structure, flavor, complexity. And so I I traveled down that's a good thing. Yeah, I was gonna say that again.
+
+[26:06] Viscosity is a uh a there's no like fixed thing on viscosity. As I was saying before with regional wheats, if you want to control the outward appearance of the product and your wheat, for example, varies in protein percent or quality, which can in turn change the absorption. One of the factors that can change and alter the absorption, which therefore effects the viscoelasticity of the dough, i.e., its texture when it's when a when a very precise amount of liquid has been added to it. Um I would be more concerned as a bread baker or craft baker with the apparent viscoelasticity of the dough than getting caught up with, whoa, I put exactly you know, uh 85% hydration, because you might get a great bread out of 75% hydration if the wheat is of a different quality. And I think that, you know, and in terms of how you hold uh a sourdough starter, uh the thicker and drier the preferment, the more gradual and slower the rate of uh uh fermentation.
+
+[27:14] The more water, the quick the the the more uh the faster it will ferment. So wetter things ferment. Because I tried to start testing variables specifically with that and realize, like doing side by side and realize it would just take an eternity to actually nail down the way all of these could potentially affect each other. So I'm wondering if you can speak to specifically uh how how feeding, holding, and and the hydration level or the viscosity, like you're saying, of the actual preferment and how that's let's let's take a look and how can that affect the the specifically the balance of lactic acid. Uh well let's let's go let's go this way.
+
+[27:57] Um if you if you go online, you can buy these really cool pH meters that you can attach to your iPhone, and it can upload an app. Do those work? Do those work? They do. If if they're calibrate, my assistant's shaking his head is like no fucking way.
+
+[28:13] You can also buy, there are there are uh uh pH meters that you can use to test the pH of the dough. You will find a correlation between in a finished dough, you'll find a range or correlation between um the pH of the dough, because you know what happens, you mix the dough together, and the pH will initially dip a little bit, like within the first 15 to 20 minutes, and then it will go up, it will arc upward, like like say six percent. I said uh uh uh like six pH. And then eventually over. All dough.
+
+[28:57] Whenever you add flour and water together and you allow and and you have some agent fermenting agent, be it commercial yeast. Or if I was like Bernie Sanders, if you want to fermentation agent. I'm sorry. I've been on this whole Bernie Sanders kick lately. You know that he's the only electable.
+
+[29:15] I know I'm getting even more headshakes for my he's the only not a political show. Oh shit, okay. Um negative ads won't stick with him, but they're gonna stick with Hillary. But we'll go back to um uh uh go back to fermentation. So if you measure the pH, you'll you'll see that there's a a really precise correlation between the pH of the dough, the length of time it takes for the dough to leaven, for example, under whatever constant constant conditions, i.e., if your house temperature, room temperature, whatever it is, or you use your your home oven with the pilot light on as like an incubator.
+
+[29:53] Um I don't know to what degree you're uh uh of a bread geek you are, but you sound like pretty much uh uh you know uh a bread bread nerd severe uh because you're you're obsessed, which is good, we're we're all there. Um and then um and then you'll see like an end result, you'll see a correlation between the pH and the the flavor profile. You see a correlation between uh the pH and the effect that the acidity has on the dough's ability to the yeasts that exist within the dough's ability to to leaven um uh the bread. Because at a certain pH is the yeasts become inactive, i.e. uh in the lab they say 4.4.
+
+[30:37] Uh but in in like practically it's like more like 4. When you're at like 4.6, at least in New York City bread baking, if you're doing sourdough. Um you're pretty much you know dealing with bread that's pretty sour. Um there's also another factor which is the tap water, because tap water varies uh from pH uh 6.6 in environments that are extremely acidic. Um and tap water in municipalities can go, I think as high as uh uh eight.
+
+[31:09] Um uh but but you know I know how buffered are those though? Won't the won't the actual biological system of the bread take over the tap water pretty quickly or no? Um well I mean you have to factor in the pH of the flour, the pH of the water, and then the rate of the the effect of the ferments on the dough, but at least everything that I've read is that when the pH is 4.4, um that fermentation stops, even if there's available glucose or materials to ferment, it's just the acidity itself, which is why a lot of people who maintain and hold starters at too high of a temperature and create these acid cultures are like, I don't know why, keep adding the starter to the dough, but it like just doesn't do anything. It just kind of gets all kind of slack and they make the bread and it tastes really tart because what's going on is it there's no fungal, it's just bacterial. It's like uh a f a flora.
+
+[32:05] You know, you just got to you have to maintain the right flora for the starter. And in terms of to answer your question in a s circumlocucious way, peripatetic way. Um it's really just about, you know, uh yeasts and microbes are constantly mutating and they will adapt and and become tolerant to conditions that you establish. Um the ones that we like, the ones that make bread and wine taste good, or the ones that are kind of in the 55 to 68 degree range. And then once you start getting above 60 degrees Fahrenheit, you're gonna start noticing other types of microbes.
+
+[32:53] It's not to say that you can't maintain a starter for a couple weeks at 75 degrees Fahrenheit, but eventually it's gonna acidify. And that that balance between the symbiotic relationship between those classes of uh saccharmes and those classes of lactobacilli will change. Okay. Is that is that cool? And do you find it to be a uh kind of a one-to-one uh balance of if the yeast is more active, the the lactobacilla are are less active, and vice versa?
+
+[33:25] I mean, there's the other thing is that you know it's w you know, when it's feeding time at the zoo, when it's feeding time at the zoo, you know, um a uh uh a starter with a lower pH that's younger, it will r react differently with the the finished dough. And even that ratio or proportion of preferment to the finished dough, uh, you know, uh if I had uh like a half uh five hundred grams, uh we're gonna talk metric, right? Oh yeah. So like let's say I had 500 grams of flour and I added 500 grams of of like preferment, levan, liquid, a stiff kind of dough, uh like what we call I call biga. Um and the pH of that dough was like four point five, four point three, whatever.
+
+[34:20] Um hopefully not three point seven or lower, because then it's so acid that the actual pH of the dough, there's a very the the window would be too small. Um but if you add like a large ratio of preferment to finished dough, um you could even add uh like uh 300 grams of flour if the pH of the preferment is on the higher side, like 4.6 and up, you could make a dough where there's actually the the the largest component would be the preferment, and then the f you're just adding a little bit of flour and salt to kind of put it together. And your your fermentation time would be reduced to like an hour, an hour and a half, say. Okay. Um or like a la nonid or a la the methods that I prescribe, mostly for practical purposes, maybe not so practical after all.
+
+[35:16] Um but if you use a small percentage, let's say that that curve, that window of fermentation is a lot longer, and there's more chances of manipulating it or coaxing it to get the right end result that you want. Wait, but Jim, to go back to what you were saying, and I mean to cut into this, but the the low the the low the lower the amount of starter that you're pitching in, right, the less the initial actual acidity matters, but the still the balance of flora in the starter is gonna be different if you start with a really acid. If you put like an acid, if you put a a highly acidic starter in a dough that was being m maintained at like 75 degrees, and it's like just basically a bacterial starter. It's not designed, it's not that won't function to leaven the bread. It will function to cause the the flour to become the the the paste, the dough, the pasta, to become acidic.
+
+[36:13] And that's all it's gonna do. I mean I've seen bakers in in Italy that keep their natural leavening in their bake shop at like you know like a hundred degrees all the time, and it's like just inedible acidic crap. By the way, Jim hates Italian bread in general, right? No, I love I love it. No, that's not true.
+
+[36:30] I love Italian bread. I love it. Didn't you didn't you go to Italy and tell them that they're all garbage? No, it's uh I uh No, I went there uh and I and I and I told them that um that they have a crisis. Carlo Petrini said the same thing.
+
+[36:44] He said the the biggest uh free fall in terms of Italian quality products with either the fast food culture we live in or modernization is with bread. He said they're in a crisis. He said that in 1998, 2000 already. Well, I said it last year. I'm sorry, I'm eating some Toshican bread with some broth new rob.
+
+[37:09] He also said the same about cheese. And uh although he was very much responsible for getting Barolo and Barbaresco up. I mean, literally one vineyard trip at a time, he was like, You should age the grapes longer, you should do all these things, cut off the bad grapes and not use them in the wine. I mean, Barolo and Barbaresco were pretty mediocre wines in the 70s, 80s. So yeah, Carlo was saying it about that.
+
+[37:32] I've had some I've had some Barolo from that era that was freaking delicious. Well, Nebbiolo grape, that whole region of barbaresco and stuff. Yeah, some could be delicious, of course, but by the way, the uh the uh the meat that you brought here is really barnyardy, huh? Patrick loves it. Patrick loves some barnyard as meat.
+
+[37:48] This is amazing. This is uh obviously from Di Paolo's because I can always tell when something's made in Europe with my wife's cheeses. I'm like, this is a great American French. This is domestic. I'm very surprised.
+
+[38:01] Um it's excellent. Well, I mean, I'm not anymore. I mean, I was gonna bring you some of my piggy. My my um Were you buying a whole pig or something? No, I raised three pigs last.
+
+[38:12] I've been doing it for the last three years. What breed? Tamarth. Oh wow. Oh, you like Tam?
+
+[38:16] Well, Tams are good mothers, right? So they're easy, they're easier to raise because they won't like squash their kids and like they can feed themselves. My my neighbors and I usually get like five piglets. I take three. And then during the summertime, because I have a house upstate in Sullivan County, I I like any time we're cooking every day, usually at the end of the day, I head over to the the I don't want to call it a pig style because they have like a little bit of a yard, but then they've got like two acres of woods to forage in.
+
+[38:44] So the animals, you know, go the summer eating vegetable scraps and whatever critters they find as they're rooting up the earth. It's a great bacon hog the tamper. Yeah yeah it's a phenomenal meat. I I don't they don't muscle up though right yeah they're a leaner hog. It's very rare that I actually buy um I buy pork from from I mean I I only I only eat my own well that'll explain why we haven't gotten any orders from you in the past four minutes.
+
+[39:11] Sorry about that. Listen before like before this is over we should talk about the Tuscan bread. Now listen why I want you to sell me now now do you see what I'm saying though about the Tuscan bread's function is really a blank canvas with the food. I don't I'm not buying it here's the thing canvas right you can't eat the pecorino and you can't eat the oil without wishing instead that we were eating your like semi decesimal. I'm like you know what I wish I wish I just had the semi-desesimal.
+
+[39:42] For me there's there's the the act or a polycy or everyone for me this is very nostalgic and I actually kind of in some ways like my favorite breakfast is Tuscan bread saltless butter and honey. Is that is that like saying that I also like Twinkies? That's even more cruel saltless butter too. Can is there any way I can get a beer that you're drinking looks really and you know we have we have a a a PhD here in in anthropology and sociology, Costus Gunis, who's flown in all the way from Crete to share with us his insights and thoughts about about this discussion. So hi, so give us give us some thoughts on the on the d on the discussion.
+
+[40:29] From a Cretan perspective. I won't get confused. No. It's out of my it's on my field. Let me ask you this.
+
+[40:38] I'm enjoying it. This is your chance to bash it. Let me ask you this. The the bread in Crete, they put salt in it. Do they not?
+
+[40:44] Yes, they do. What do you think of this particular You know how good Jim's bread is. Right. What do you think of this? Um interesting.
+
+[40:54] I mean diplomatic. Blend. Also, the crust doesn't have the same thing. It doesn't have the way it should have. It's like mushy or uh stretchy.
+
+[41:07] It's dry. Dry. The way Taskin bread is baked. It's baked with no salt or a little or no salt. It's uh baked, usually initially the everything, every bakery that does it the the traditional way tries to maintain a dry oven for the first three to seven minutes of the bake, where whereby the dough, in this case, because the dough was um underfermented, it kind of rounds out a little bit, lifts off the floor of the oven, forms a crust or skin on the dough, the opposite of what you would think.
+
+[41:43] Right. Like you're not looking for humidity. And then how do they how do they do that? Do they use a low load in the oven? Or you know, the whole, and then it's baked at between 380 and 400 degrees, depending upon the bakery, for a lot longer than you would normally bake.
+
+[42:00] So you end up with this loaf of bread that actually kind of is kind of semi-stale in a way. Right. To begin with, but it doesn't really stale. Like I can ha eat this bread in three days, and it's textually not that different than it is today. It's like and starts off as two-day old, but it stays.
+
+[42:20] Yeah, but it doesn't, you know, but the idea of what is staleness, staleness is a perceptual thing. That's an elasticity of the crust though. No, it's I I I mean, yes, chewier. But then there's technical explanations, and then there's when you eat it, does it taste like garbage? Well, that's well, no, that's well, that's subjective when you say that something tastes like garbage, it's all relative.
+
+[42:38] I mean, for me, Oscar something is garbage. I'm not saying this is garbage, it's not a big thing. I mean, like one of my favorite snacks would be like this bread. Like I didn't bring uh I was gonna bring some garlic in a toaster oven, but I I I couldn't couldn't bring all that stuff with me. But just to do fitunta, you know, just to do to the bread toasted, rubber garlic, a little bit of olive oil.
+
+[42:57] I go one step further. I like to put vinegar on my bread because I just like veneer. So you're saying this is actually baked longer, even though the crust color is a lot lower than what it would normally be because of the my my daughter doesn't like it when I talk with food in my mouth, but I'm gonna go go for it. Two-minute morning, Dave. All right, right, yeah, come on.
+
+[43:19] The bread is baked at a lower temperature, which is why the color of the bread is the way it is. Right, right. If there was a higher quantity of salt or any percentage of salt over over one percent, you would end up with the scarring that takes I call it salt scoring, where the little alveoli that are along the surface of the dough would kind of uh become places where the salt will crystallize. So you end up having like you end up seeing you ever seen like bread that's kind of like kind of like pale and white, but it's like overcooked? Yes.
+
+[43:51] That's like I'll call I my name for it is salt scarring. And you see like the little white dots. Like if you see dough that's slow fermented or fermented in refrigerators, which is very popular these days. Oh, you don't like do you don't like refrigeration retarding? I just uh well I think it's I think it's a little retarded.
+
+[44:06] Ha ha I think it's um I think it's yeah, I mean I yeah, I guess I What if someone doesn't do it every day and they realize it's rising too fast, they need to slow it down a little bit? Um it's really convenient that we have refrigeration. It's lovely that we have it. I'm a big supporter. I'm a big yes, you're you're in the meat biz.
+
+[44:23] Um I mean you wouldn't say like throw it and throw it in the fridge and the next time pitch less in or what? Well, I mean, you know, as as a uh uh a thing of convenience, yeah, we have refrigeration, but uh in general I like I like live baking. I like the element of risk. I like that I have to kind of be kind of connected to the the process of the fermentation so that I I can control it without necessarily having to employ uh like whatever a battery of refrigerators and increase my carbon footprint. Right.
+
+[44:55] Can I ask one last question? Because it was so interesting to HRNN News. Did you say, I'm just wanting to make uh quote if it's possible, that climate change and El Nino and global warming could perhaps be negatively affecting the quality of artisan bread around the world. Is there a direct correlation? Did I hear you kind of ended that?
+
+[45:14] No. No, because it's too much. I am El Nino. No, of course. But I thought you said weather affects the bread.
+
+[45:23] It could lower the quality of local graineries ingredients. There's a reason why during our colonial period. Excuse me, one second. Oh. Fucking broccoli raw.
+
+[45:35] One minute day. During During our colonial period, wheat was grown everywhere. Brooklyn was like the epicenter of wheat agriculture in in at least in this state. Yeah, and one of the great apples in the world came out of there, but now it's Spitzenberg? Spitzerburg, yeah.
+
+[45:44] So right now, uh, you know, we can grow wheat here. It's just that our expectation about what good bread is. It's like you can't fit square pegs into round holes without kind of losing a little bit of the squareness, a little bit of the roundness of each. And so I think that our idea about what good bread is needs to change. Like are we still kind of stuck in this dialogue of like, does it have big holes and stuff?
+
+[46:12] And like, does it you know? You know you know what we didn't get to pissing me off. Everyone wants to know where do they go after the no need technique so that they can use your technique but build up to make different styles of bread. We're not gonna have time to get into it. I have a new book coming out, and it and it has a whole thing on using natural leavening for no need.
+
+[46:28] I'm doing it with when's it coming out? God knows. Um I'm doing it with Maria. Yeah. Well, okay, so look out for the look out for that.
+
+[46:35] Secondly. But but you know, it's it is it is it is it is it will it will come out. I know that we're like at the uh final phases of retesting recipes, and hopefully by next year. Do you do you believe in labeling? Uh huh.
+
+[46:49] Do you like to label things in the kitchen? Um I I personally love labeling. I think it's a bit more. Thank you, cooking issues, blue tape keychain. Oh, it's so cute.
+
+[47:00] Thank you. Yeah, thanks for coming on cookie. Wait, on the on the way out, as they're playing the theme. What is the most alarming piece of garbage in the bread world today? What's the worst thing that's happening in front of it?
+
+[47:09] By the way, Jim Jim has taught us, Jim has taught us it's not bad, it's different. It's not different. It's different. Love things for what they are. What they are, but what is what is what Martin's potato rolls?
+
+[47:18] Oh that they they do taste good, but I mean I'm not like a I just think bad bread is bad bread. I mean gosh food is fast food. I'm sorry, I don't care what corporation is behind it. Wow, cooking issues. I know.
+
+[47:35] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[48:00] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm. For more information, visit Nettle Meadow Cheese and Spirits.com. That's N-E-T-T-L-E, Meadow Cheese and Spirits dot com. I'm Erica White, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:26] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every week, uh Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. The Heritage Radio Network here in Bushwick Br Brooklyn. How you doing?
+
+[0:51] How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Look crazy on the Bushwick today, huh?
+
+[0:54] Mm-hmm. Do you know why I have to go crazy on the Bushwick? Because this is one of Jackie Molecules, Jack Ansley's last weeks here in Bushwick. Next week is last week. Next week's his last week.
+
+[1:04] Next week will be my last uh in studio live cooking issues for the time being. Forever. Wow. Forever, says Stas. Yeah.
+
+[1:12] Uh well, can you where's my where's the awe voice? The what? Where's the awe voice? Oh, I know, right? All I have is this.
+
+[1:20] I like that. Um. Oh, you want to hear some good news? My phone decided it would be funny to erase all of the stuff that I had prepared to talk today. So I'm gonna have to have you call up the questions and then I'll make the uh answers.
+
+[1:33] There's only one. No, there's that extra question that you got. And then there's one from last week. All of those, all because I didn't get to answer any questions last week because we had Jim Leahy on. You couldn't miss it because you were stuck in My Inus.
+
+[1:44] Right. Myanis, Connecticut. For those of you that weren't tuned in last week, Nastasia borrowed a stick shift 1993 stick shift sob that for some reason one of her friends decides is a good New York City car to have. And uh the clutch cylinder leaked its oil, its last breath on the way back to New York City, and she was stuck in the beautiful hamlet of Mayanus, part of Greenwich, Connecticut. Do you know you lived in Greenwich for a while?
+
+[2:15] Mm-hmm. Do they honestly? Because my son Booker is like, enough with the bathroom humor, Dad. You and your precious Mayanus, is what he says. Because we we pass the sign all the time.
+
+[2:25] Do they pronounce it Mainas or do they pronounce it Mayanis? I've never heard anybody say that word ever. If there's anyone who lives in the Greenwich, Connecticut area, we gotta find someone who lives around there, maybe someone from the neighboring Koscob, who can tell us. How are you gonna look it up? I'm looking it up right now.
+
+[2:42] Do you know that if you look up the pronunciation on there's like some there's people whose only thing that they do in life is make fake pronunciations and put them on the internets to mess things up? There's something called like pronunciation guide that literally is just some guy mispronouncing words on purpose. So I just don't trust the internet. And plus Well, the internet says it's my Anise. Yeah.
+
+[3:05] My Anise, as in my star. Yeah, no, no, my Anise. My Anise? What is it? Some sort of tropical?
+
+[3:13] It's Greenwich. Mayanise. Mayanise. Is it mayonnaise? Is it like some sort of like French mayonnaise alike?
+
+[3:21] Makes no sense. Yeah, we gotta get somebody to call in with that. Yeah, I need someone from Greenwich, probably uh preferably a hater, right? Who who like, you know, grew up like, you know, fighting the the local like my anus warriors growing up or whatever the name of their team is. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[3:36] Mm-hmm. And just you know, give it to me straight. Give it to me straight. Uh okay. So uh we have some questions, but as I say, they've been lost, so Nastasia's finding those and I'll start with the one that I have here.
+
+[3:44] Um dear Dave Nastasia Jack Peter who's not here because he Peters doesn't care right Stas? He said he couldn't make it. Yeah yeah I couldn't make it yeah and then you know it's only like you know one of Jack's last Peter I don't think he knows that well yeah he's I told him where are you Peter? Wow wow and the gang uh I've been reading up on British desserts mistake. No I'm kidding I'm kidding.
+
+[4:14] Uh I've been reading up on British desserts and they use double cream which has about 48% milk fat. I haven't been able to find this in the USA. Is there any way I could take that heavy cream and either add more milk fat without a homogenizer or remove water to bump the uh milk fat content from 35 to 48. Uh thanks for all the great work Tom Fisher. Well look it depends on what you want to do with it.
+
+[4:33] I mean you can boil uh cream down to a very very high fat content but then the question is I'm not sure what you want to uh do with it afterwards whether that's gonna alter the um whether that's gonna alter the flavor. You can't just melt butter or butter fat and add it in because remember the cream is a fat in uh water emulsion and butter is the reverse it's a water in fat emulsion. So we used to do the experiment with uh Harold McGee at the French culinary where we would take cream which is fat in water, right? Whenever you're talking about an emulsion you first name the the thing that's that's you know formed in pockets that's not the continuous phase, and then you say what it's in, which is the continuous phase. So it's you know, fat uh globules, do you hate the word globule?
+
+[5:25] Mm-hmm yeah. Uh distributed in a in a water uh in a water base, uh you know, water-ish. And so um then you beat it, you know, until it the fat particles agglomerate, you you break the emulsion, and now you have the reverse. You have a water uh in water droplet in oil emulsion, which is butter. So you you know it you can't really fortify it.
+
+[5:48] You can mount it and do a revert, like a mounted thing, but it's not gonna be the same. But luckily for you, uh, you know, if you get nice fresh cream and it's you know doesn't have any like uh uh high acidity or anything like that, you can uh boil it down and get pretty much whatever fat content you want. Now, you might be affecting or you will be affecting the taste uh and the uh whipping uh properties. Uh but I didn't have time to look what the standard recipe for making it is because I'm pretty sure that you know it's gonna be hard to get 48% fat straight from the cow, just rising up on the top, unless you really spin it down. Oh, you know what, like I could spin it in the centrifuge and get it pretty easily because I can make butter in the centrifuge, but I don't know if I can I guess I could probably enrich it to that level, but you're getting real close, you know, to like having it just automatically form a dense kind of uh uh butter anyway.
+
+[6:38] You know what else I've never noticed us? The the quote unquote butter that you make in the centrifuge when you spin butter in the centrifuge. Um I wonder whether it's actually butter or just really solidified cream. Like I wonder whether you've actually broken the emulsion. I think you probably have because you get that thin buttermilk.
+
+[6:56] You know what I'm saying? Um anyway. Speaking of uh centrifuge. Uh that was from Tom Fisher, by the way. Um, I wonder, like, should we put a an all points bullet now for people to tell us what they want the centrifuge to be able to do?
+
+[7:10] Right. The new one, just so we get more feedback from people before we release what the prototype is gonna do so I can test recipes. Like right now, I already know that the centrifuge we're working on can do strawberries, tomato, orange, lime, lemon, um, you know, banana, justino, dates. Uh I know it can do parsley oil, I know it can do pea butter, I know it can do um, I know it can do some kinds of nut milk and stuff like this, but maybe we should try to figure out what people want it to do so I can test the recipes. I don't know.
+
+[7:42] If any of you guys have any things that you are dying to have a centrifuge be able to do, I can test it on my uh prototype. Send it back. What? Whoops send it back. No, we don't.
+
+[7:52] You're wrong. Nastasia's talking about stuff that you don't have any idea we're talking about. I might as well I might as well be I might as well be speaking in a language. I might as well be speaking. We have a prototype here.
+
+[8:02] We have a prototype here that I'm gonna send back. They're sending us another one, and in fact, we just need to send a rotor, of which I have three for testing. Uh Nastasia again talking about stuff that you out there don't care about or don't know. They love knowing. Who between the two of us, who's the one that spent an hour from midnight to one a.m.
+
+[8:19] talking to them yesterday? Oh me. Okay. Uh anyway, so the um yes, we had to send some stuff back. We can still run uh tests, and I have four units in the US.
+
+[8:30] Four. Anyway. Um little bit of uh Dave Dave anger on the on a on a Tuesday morning. Well, it's like a Monday though. I haven't seen uh yeah, it's it's a it's a weird Monday.
+
+[8:42] It's like yeah, it's like Monday, Monday anger on a Tuesday. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of like bad traffic on the way here. Yeah, weird attitudes. Everybody's confused and hung over.
+
+[8:53] It's New York when it's hot, you know. Yeah, that's right. You know, and Nastasia hates it, I think, as much as I do, don't you? Yes. Did you go anywhere fun over the weekend?
+
+[9:01] No. How would I? The face. The same way that you always do by taking a train or stealing the car that you just Nastasia literally just got a car fixed. Right.
+
+[9:11] Just paid to get her buddy's car fixed. Her buddy with this car is in Seoul. So she's like, how would I get a big thing? You don't have to sleep over somewhere. You can leave the city.
+
+[9:21] You know, I've done many times. That's the worst weekend to go places, I think. I'll tell you what, I drove back yesterday, not a big deal. Really? Yeah.
+
+[9:30] Hmm. Not a big deal. From Connecticut? Yeah. What time?
+
+[9:34] Like three. Okay. Not a big deal. Um, in fact, saw some accidents. Still didn't do cause too much problems.
+
+[9:42] I'm in traffic on the way back. But you know, Nastasia wants to be martyred poor man. I'm not going to be able to do that. Where would I go? I'm saying you know that I wouldn't go anywhere.
+
+[9:51] What would I do? Anyway, the so you know, you know, whatever. You know what the thing is? It's like it's like if if I were to say, hey, are you gonna be around this week? And she's like, What do you think?
+
+[10:01] I stay wherever you want me. That's not true. You know I'm always in New York. No, that's not true. You're always doing something.
+
+[10:06] Constantly. You're I'm going out to the Hamptons to visit my dirtbag buddies. I'm going to this. Ooh, dirt bag buddies. Dirt bag buddies.
+
+[10:13] Oh my god, Nastasia has some s some. Do you know Booker has started calling all of Dax's buddies dirt bag buddies? Yeah, so we're gonna name a band that too. Dirt bag buddies, yeah. And so now my wife, Jen, is like, you have to stop using the word dirtbag because the kids are picking it up.
+
+[10:26] What do you think, S? No comment. You think I should stop saying dirt bag? You say a lot of things that they pick up. A lot.
+
+[10:33] Look, A, uh, that's not necessarily. I heard X talk exactly like you. Well, yeah. Oh, speaking of things that they picked up, my kids have picked up. This is not cooking related, so we'll try to get off it quickly.
+
+[10:44] But my kids have without without any actual physical contact, picked up my hatred of geese, of Canadian geese. Because I was like driving by if you you know, if you've ever lived in the Northeast and spent uh in the suburbs and spent, you know, this time of year, and you go to any pond that has a lawn next to it, right? You need a pond with a lawn next to it. It is infested with freaking Canadian geese. And right now, this time of year is when they have their rancid little goslings.
+
+[11:13] And when when Canadian geese have their gauzings, if you want your children to grow up with a healthy hatred of Canadian geese, just throw them on the side of a pond with freaking geese and their goslings because they're the most vicious creatures. That you could because if you didn't know better, you'd be like, Oh geese, what are they gonna do, right? You ever been attacked by goose? Mm-hmm. It's nuts, man.
+
+[11:36] No, yeah. My little brother was attacked once when he was a kid, and then that was it. Yeah, they like start h first of all, they start hissing like some sort of like like creature from a horror show, and then they run at you like snapping and hissing with their with their wings giving you the they're giving you this one, Stas What? What? What with the wings?
+
+[11:53] You know what I mean? They're running at you and just do that like once or twice with it. There's a book written by uh I forget her name, but she's uh writes about how to poach animals. I'm not advocating for that. But she said, I think it was her who wrote that if you ever want your kids to never be vegetarians and to always support the killing of animals, expose them as often as possible to geese.
+
+[12:14] Did you see the gorilla? I felt so bad about that. I know. Yeah. But you know what I looked up?
+
+[12:19] I looked up. How did he get in there? It's unclear yet how the kid got in there, but here's the here's the real So what we're talking about for those of you that haven't been following the news is uh was where was it, Cincinnati or something like this? Three-year-old or four or something like this kid makes it into the gorilla pen, falls ten feet down into this moat where this like 450 pound silver back, 17-year-old silverback gorilla is. I forget the gorilla's name.
+
+[12:43] And the gorilla's like, what? You know what I mean? It starts like dragging this kid around, and the video is like, oh my god, it's crazy. So they shot the gorilla to death. I looked it up.
+
+[12:54] They there's no such thing as a tranquilizer that'll take a gorilla down. Why is there not such a thing as a tranquilizer that could do that? I that's my question. I don't know. But uh a first thing, you know, uh, you know, my Dax and I were like, what the hell?
+
+[13:07] Why can't they just shoot it with a you know a tranquilizer dart? Why do they have to kill the freaking gorilla? It's horrible. It's not the gorilla's fault. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:15] Yeah. But then, you know, I saw all these skats of things on the internet saying that there's nothing that can take a gor reliably take a gorilla down in less than about 30 seconds. And you know, and what you don't want is an enraged, pissed off gorilla that's just been crank darted, like taking a kid and smacking it around on a bunch of concrete. Mm-hmm. But the gorilla didn't look mad at the kid.
+
+[13:37] No. And the kid didn't look phased. What the what's the game? The gorilla looked like he was kind of taking care of the kid. It was weird.
+
+[13:43] Well, I mean, I just don't mean the gorilla, like, you know, what does the gorilla know about how fragile a you know a three-year-old human is? You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know. The gorilla looked like a lot less uh intent on damaging that uh kid than you know, my dog did eating frogs this weekend. My dog turned into such a frog murderer this weekend, like there are frogs everywhere, and he would see a frog and then instantly start foaming at the mouth as if rabbit and jump after the frog and just be like, and my kids are like, daddy the frog, daddy the frog.
+
+[14:12] I'm like, the dog's a carnivore. The dog is a freaking carnivore. It's like you're feeding it chummed up chicken and cow and lamb every day out of a can, and you're worried about a frog, a frog, an amphibian that doesn't even have a sense of play, and like you're okay. Whatever. I mean, don't get don't get me started.
+
+[14:29] Don't get me started. Okay. Uh so Stas, you find the other question? There's one other question. There's two.
+
+[14:35] From last week? There's last week, there's the there's the John Oliver one, and then there's the other one that came in. So when you just read it. Hello, and thank you for making this a great podcast. Um First, it seems to me that other than mixers and cheaters, and not much advancement was made in the process of making puff pastry and croissants over the years.
+
+[14:54] Making it is time consuming and requires much skill and practice. Can you suggest a modern ingredient or method that might help in the process? Preheats keeping the butter from soaking in the dough or melting at room temperature, maybe even, and forgive me for the hearsay, use less heresy. Buttercy, heresy. Heresy, use less butter and still get separate flaky layers.
+
+[15:12] Second, in order to keep the puff. Oh, let's do one at time. Do one at time. So uh the question is is it are any new tricks for uh pup pastry? And the he mentioned croissant too, right?
+
+[15:21] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, first of all, I have to say, I have I've only made you ever you don't like croissant, right, Stas? No. What's worse?
+
+[15:27] A croissant or a biscuit? I equal really croissant has chocolate in it, then that's fine. What about almond? No. What if you had what if you had a uh what if you had chocolate in a biscuit?
+
+[15:41] No. No, no. But chocolate and croissant, okay. I'm kind of intrigued by the chocolate biscuit idea, Dave. Well, I'm telling you, you heard it here first, people.
+
+[15:50] Cooking issues, chocolate, chocolate inside of a biscuit. It's be easy enough to do. Yeah. I mean, freaking simple. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:59] They bake for roughly the same amount of time as a croissant bakes. And they bake at roughly the same temperature that a croissant bakes. So and they're they're cooked through as as much as a croissant is, so I'm gonna go ahead and say that you could do a chocolate biscuit. You know, standard baking powder uh biscuit, uh buttermilk biscuit. Um okay.
+
+[16:19] I made Coisson exactly once in my life. Uh it was well over twenty years ago, and it was in the middle of the freaking summer in an unair conditioned house. So it sucked. And I was like, when I made them, they've tasted fine, but I was like, this crap in a rare, I was like, this crap is not worth it. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:40] Like, I'm glad I made it once, I'm never gonna do it again. So I don't have a lot of experience with croissant, but I have made a bunch of puff pastry. Uh, and I've never really tried to make it um I've never really tried to tech it up. Uh I looked up the patent literature on this, and there are a bunch of people that have um patents out uh on on puff pastry, specifically trying to lower the fat content of pat puff pastry because for some reason this is the kind of thing that people are uh interested in doing. I'm not I mean, not me personally, like I'd rather just have puff pastries.
+
+[17:12] But what they did was so when you're making puff pastry, obviously the idea is you have a laminated dough, you have the dough layers, and you have the fat in between them. Now, back when I was uh paying attention to such things, you would uh people always said that it was the water in the butter that was the important part that would blast the that would steam and blast the layers apart, but now most people say that uh the water in the dough does the same thing as the water in the butter, although I've never tried making puff pastry with a s with a s a solid fat that didn't have uh any water in it at all. And I'm pretty sure that the puff pastry fats that they make specifically for making super light flaky puff pastries, which are they are a technical marvel, if terrible for you, uh they are because they're all trans, although they probably have trans fat free ones now. But um those like are awesome, but I think that those are emulsions with water in them, like a standard margarine, but they're done for puff pastry. Anyways, so uh you need this separation that and you need the dough layers to not stick together so that they can um puff apart.
+
+[18:08] Um so there's uh fella, I forget his name because I don't have it in front of me anymore, but the who uh had a patent out on making a uh thickened starch uh water uh along with fat emulsion so that it had the plasticity and laminating characteristics of margarine, but instead of being eighty-two or eighty to eighty-two percent fat, was like forty to forty-five percent fat. And so that would be a significant fat reduction, and according to the patent, it works. But as Nastasi and I both know, any idiot can write a patent even if stuff doesn't work and they'll get it. You know what I mean? It's true.
+
+[18:46] A lot of people don't know this, but if you write a patent, it doesn't mean you could literally, if you write a patent, uh you never have to prove that the sucker works. You just have to make up a good enough story for the patent officer to believe that you come up with uh, you know, in fact, people have patented things that are physically impossible to do, and they slipped it past uh, you know, uh a patent officer who, you know, I don't know, high as a kite or or you know, drunk as a skunk or whatever, didn't wasn't paying any attention. And there are people, I forget, that who collect these kind of absurd patents as kind of little uh things. Anyway, so uh let's go on to the second question. Second, in order to keep the potency of rarely used spices, hello, pink peppercorn.
+
+[19:28] I store those in the freezer. Assuming I keep counting assuming I keep condensation at check. Is there any reason repeated freezing and thawing might hurt them? And is the same true for nuts? Nuts.
+
+[19:40] Okay, so uh to look up my suspicions. Nastasi, you'll enjoy this, I think. I looked up UC Davis's PDF on uh nut storage, and uh you know, UC Davis, they know from nuts. They safe the safe handling of nuts. How awesome is that as a as a PDF title?
+
+[19:57] The safe, the safe handling of nuts gently. Gently. I believe is the uh is it anyway. So the the point is is that uh and McCormick, if you look at what McCormick tells you, McCormick tells you not to freeze uh dry spices just because it's unnecessary. But let's break down what's going on here.
+
+[20:14] There are several things you need to worry about when you're uh when you're dealing with spices. So in general, dried spices are those things that have been deemed for millennia in some cases to withstand the rigors of shipment on boats and long storage and still retain potency and as long as they're kept whole, not ground, uh, you know, for long, long periods of time. Uh that's why they are the spices that we use, because they are items of commerce that can be shipped over long distances. So they tend to store rather well without any sort of like uh um freezing or or refrigeration. Now, most you're gonna extend the life of these things where where these things get damaged is a yes, they will volatilize their their aromas off over time and and decrease their potency.
+
+[21:02] Some of them will also probably alter in flavor over time. Uh, but you have two main things. You have water damage due to condensation, which is obviously enhanced by um cycling through different temperatures where you get condensation on it. So that's why repeatedly bringing it in and out of cold uh can be problematic unless it's stored under a vacuum. So if it's stored under a vacuum, you can bring something in and out, and you're not going to get condensation because there's not any extra uh vapor in there to have water that can damage it through repeated freeze thaw cycles.
+
+[21:32] But I doubt you're gonna get that much of an advantage on that versus just storing it in a vacuum container. Also remember, every time you suck a vacuum, you're sucking volatiles off of it. Now, are you really gonna notice? I don't think so. But uh a good way to do this, if you really um want to do it, is to vacuum these things into smaller packages and keep them vaced down so you're not repeatedly vacuuming and unvacking them time and time again.
+
+[21:54] So that's in terms of keeping. But the other thing, and this this is where you know the some spices, but also D's and nuts and like seeds and things like that. Yeah, uh are uh are important is uh rancidity, right? So um your nuts are gonna go rancid if you leave them out at room temperature for a long time. And in fact, I just had an interesting uh uh pack of uh black walnuts, American grown black walnuts.
+
+[22:20] Uh I've I'm not I I'm not gonna get into that joke. Anyway, but like they like I can't, it's family show. Uh much you know, Jim Leahy, how long did it take us to get tell Jim that it was a family show? Yeah, that was. I think he was surprised it was a family show, and then like he's just you know, it's just not in his nature to to turn off the the the bleep bombs.
+
+[22:40] You know, but his Bernie Sanders impression was excellent. Well that's why, yes, we also had to be like it's not a political show. Not a political show. Yeah. Family show.
+
+[22:48] You can live that I don't care what your I mean, within reason, I don't care what your political beliefs are. But uh, you know, anyway, back to what I was saying, nuts. So the they're gonna go rancid. In fact, I've got these black walnuts, and they had gone rancid in a really uh kind of interesting way. Stas, did you were you here when we ate with Paul and uh Don, those uh I think Don was here, those ants.
+
+[23:10] Yeah. Did you eat one? Yeah. Remember how disgusting they were? But like greasy and like like but fruity greasy?
+
+[23:19] Well, you know, most of the time when I taste rancid nuts, uh, it's more that cardboard kind of rancidity that you get with oil, where you can taste oil and see that it's gone off and it's getting rancid. But these walnuts had that fruity rancidity, it was so weird. Anyway, so they go rancid, uh, very obviously. Um so you're gonna want to store your nuts in uh a vacuum if possible, and nuts are good in the freezer, but you also you want like I say, if you store it in a vacuum and you can get rid of the um the air, you're not gonna get condensation even through the a couple of uh freeze freeze thaw cycles. But other than that, I would say that airtight storage and buying them whole and buying high quality is the way to go.
+
+[23:59] And unless you're cooking um professionally, so if you're cooking professionally, uh you know, people in general, if you if you it again it depends on what kind of professional cooking. If you're dealing in a large kind of institutional environment where you're expecting someone to follow measurements, like you will use five grams of pink peppercorn, right? Then consistency of your pink peppercorn over time is super important. But if you're just cooking, or even if you're a real cook in a restaurant and you can adjust on the fly, typically these kind of spices will just lose potency over time, and so you can just jack the quantity. This is why, like we were talking before when uh Kenji was in and someone on the internet said that bay leaves don't have flavor.
+
+[24:35] Remember that, Jack? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I'm stasm. Remember that? And uh, and I was like, Yeah, you're yeah, it's wrong.
+
+[24:42] Just use more because you have crappy ones. You know what I'm saying? Right. And so uh a lot of times I think you're probably better off just jacking the quantity a little bit. I mean, I know I I do that.
+
+[24:51] I mean, most of us use those kinds of things um to taste anyhow, right? Yeah. Uh okay. So what was the other? We had another question in from uh Norway, right?
+
+[25:01] You sent it to me last night. Uh okay. Yeah, well while we're not while we're looking it up, uh no, but they were in two separate emails. I lost any changes I made to my email. Yeah.
+
+[25:12] Uh so anyway, so why don't we go to commercial break? We'll get that question. We'll come back with more cooking issues. And the break song here is called Forks by Slow Roasters. We'll be right back.
+
+[25:37] Nettle Meadow Farm Cheese and Spirits Pairing is a celebration of good food and beverages in the newly restored Barn Loft event venue at Nettle Meadow Farm in Thurman, New York. On Saturday, June 18th, come sample and savor, then buy your favorite cheeses and beverages to take home. Nettle Meadow cheeses have been praised highly in national media and have won prestigious awards from the American Cheese Society. Taste samples of goat and sheep cheese is paired with an array of local regional wines, beers, and ciders. You'll never forget your first sample of rich, creamy kunic, nettle meadows trademark cheese.
+
+[26:12] In Esquire, our very own Ansaxelby said Kunic. It may very well be the sexiest cheese in the USA. Nettle Meadow Farm is a goat and sheep dairy and cheese company in Thurman, New York, just below Crane Mountain in the Adirondacks, between Gore Mountain, North Creek, and Warrensburg. It's owned and operated by Lorraine Limbiase and Sheila Flanagan. Both have a great love of animals, artisan cheese, and the unique challenges of farm life.
+
+[26:37] Nettle Meadow Farm was originally founded in nineteen ninety, and it's the home of over three hundred goats, dozens of sheep, and a variety of farm sanctuary animals. Again, the cheese and spirits pairing is Saturday, June 18th. For more information and tickets, visit nettle Meadow Cheese and Spirits dot com. That's N E T T L E, Meadow Cheese and Spirits dot com. All right.
+
+[27:02] All right, and we are back. So we had this question in uh by the way you can call your cooking questions in to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh this in from uh Arnie Olsen. Uh hey guys and thanks for great show I have a question about Limequat.
+
+[27:19] Lime quad. Remember the Limequads? Mm-hmm. They're like you know what though the thing so Limequat is I don't know whether it's technically a mix between a kumquat and a lime but they're these little kumquat y things you eat the whole thing like a like a lime right? I mean like I like eating the kumquats really you going to Nastasia on me here?
+
+[27:39] A little bit I don't know. I don't I don't like eating the the rind you know but the rhin's the best part of the kumquat. Yeah. That's where all the that's where this you know the the fruit I first of all I happen to freaking love kumquats. Like I completely denuded Harold McGee's Kumquat tree and which is a gross sounding sentence I know but like it was uh I it never came back from what I did.
+
+[27:59] I just wiped it out. I was just like that basically just like sat there and ch chewed on the whole plant until the kumquats were gone. And then when Nastasia and Harold and I visited uh Gene Lester's citrus farm, we were bathing in different kinds of cumquats and limequats and stuff. Remember that? Mm-hmm.
+
+[28:15] Do you but I think I like the cumquat better than the limequat. Yeah. I like a good old-fashioned orange colored cumquat. Jack, I feel like you need to give the kumquat another chance. Yeah, oh, I'm open to it.
+
+[28:28] What do you how I'm not I'm not hardline on these things? Just like the last time I had kumquats, I don't remember like loving them. How did you have them? Well, whole. Do you like sour things?
+
+[28:38] Yeah. I might have just had a bad batch. It's possible. I guess. You know what I don't like about them?
+
+[28:43] Is like uh I like like uh every once in a while the seeds will tick me off. You know what I mean? I don't know. What do you think about biting into a kumquat seeds dust? Not good.
+
+[28:54] Not good? No. But I love a level. I don't I don't really cook with them, I just eat them. We've tried to make cocktails out of them.
+
+[29:00] I've never been like, oh my god, that's the best cocktail I've ever had. I've made garnishes with them, done punch, I've candied them. Yeah. But I think they're best just eaten. You know what I mean?
+
+[29:09] Uh anyway. You know what? I think the last time I had one, it was a garnish. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
+
+[29:14] And it might have just not been like the highest quality, you know. Yeah, and plus what was it? Garnishing, do you remember? I don't. Yeah.
+
+[29:22] Uh I've been uh I have a question about lime quad. I've been fermenting all sorts of things lately, and I threw some limequat wedges in with some chilies and Turkish sour green plums. I'm not gonna try to pronounce the Turkish word here, uh Yezel Eric Tavazi, I guess is what it is. I've actually had if it's the ones I'm thinking of, they're like they're in season. I forget when exactly they're season.
+
+[29:41] It's when I was in Istanbul's when they were in season. And they're good. And uh, you know, remember we had, you know uh in May. Really? So it's running around now?
+
+[29:49] Okay. Um but here's here's anyway. The liquid has become a lot more viscous. What do you think about that word? It's okay.
+
+[29:57] Yeah. Uh viscous than I've experienced before, and the only differing thing this time were the lime quads. The plums haven't behaved like this before, so I assume it's not them. I've been able to uh I've been able to find anything online about hydrocolloid properties of lime quat or cumquat. I used a brine of about four percent salt.
+
+[30:14] The change in viscosity happened fast before any significant drop in pH can have occurred after a few hours, and it hasn't changed after a month. Any ideas? Huh. No. That is really weird.
+
+[30:26] Um I know that uh Harold McGee has had uh snotty preserved lemons before. Like they've gone, like his preserved lemons have gone all snotty on him. Um but that is probably due to halophilic uh bacteria that were causing making some sort of mucilage. So typically, like I wouldn't imagine that the limes uh oh here's an interesting thing though. The limes are far more acidic than the uh plums are, right?
+
+[30:56] I mean the plums are acidic, but the lime quads are m more acidic still. Uh I wonder I wonder if you um I wonder if you as a test just took some of the plums and jacked the acidity up a little bit to the same kind of acidity level you had. I wonder whether it's just some sort of weird pectin phenomenon, like you have solubilized some pectin, and then when you lower the acidity, it's doing some sort of like pre-gel or set or something like this. Because I my my guess is is that it's not an aspect of the citrus itself. It's an aspect of the uh acidity of the environment dropping uh with the addition of the of the lime crop.
+
+[31:37] But you know what? You said it wasn't there wasn't a significant drop in pH, so that must mean you've been measuring it and if measuring it, you know what the pH was. So I don't know. I've never heard of any weird hydrocoloid property in uh a lime quat or uh or any anything else. But maybe some people in the chat room have a uh something to say.
+
+[31:53] Now remember, my lime quad experience is solely based on Nastasia and I eating the hell out of them uh on Gene Lester's farm. I've never shopped for Limequats, nor have I sourced Lime Quats or you know, the only sort of quat that I have sourced is is Cumquats. What was that drink name we're gonna make for that cumquat thing that Derek can't remember his last name? Cram Yeah, what was it? Anyway, we'll figure it out.
+
+[32:17] We have a cumquat dish uh uh drink at the bar. And uh and Nastasia came up with an awesome name for it, which is not the name that you can order it from at the bar, but it was like something in the cram quats. What was it? It was like Is it just Derek? Yeah, hysteric, yes.
+
+[32:31] Something Derek and the Cram Quats? Maybe. This week, tonight. Something like that. Tonight, this week, tonight, or something like this, tomorrow, yesterday, tonight, this week.
+
+[32:49] He's a funny dude. Anyway, he did something on um on science that uh scientific studies and food specifically that uh someone wanted us to read and uh look at rather and comment on. And I have to say that I think it was hilarious. Everybody should go to John Oliver's website and look at his twenty two or twenty-three minute uh you know rant basically on how crappy most uh food science studies are and how they're mishandled by the media. Um last week tonight.
+
+[33:21] Last week tonight. It is uh I think it's pretty much spot on. I'm being like it's uh it's a subject that I plan on going more uh in depth on if I ever finish or start writing the book that I'm supposed to write. I'm gonna have a chapter on kind of the what I consider the pyramid of garbage that most uh of these uh a lot of these studies are are based on. But I don't wanna go into it now because if I go half cocked on it, someone will call me out and tell me that I'm a terrible uneducated fool, right?
+
+[33:50] As has happened before. As has happened before. Um okay. So that's that. Those are the questions that are in.
+
+[33:57] So now I'm gonna talk about some stuff I want to do. First of all, Nastasia, I'm gonna redo my outdoor uh cooking situation again, right? Because no matter what I do, I cannot get in a situation where people will be in the same freaking area w while I'm cooking. It's com it it it it it still is completely anti-social. Like my Tandoor is like crammed outside.
+
+[34:22] No one wants to hang out where the Tandoor is. You know what I mean? Also, like you know how to you know how I'm cheap? Yeah, yeah, she's nodding her head up and down. Yeah, cheap.
+
+[34:30] So uh everyone, you know, the the big thing over the past couple of years people want, they want a fire pit, right? Because people want to hang out the fire. I bet you have the fire pit. I did. So, but I bought it the cheap one, right?
+
+[34:41] From the Home Depot. It's called the Cowboy Grill, but it doubles as a grill. But I'm like, I'm never gonna use this thing as a grill. I actually used it as a grill. Because then now I have those benches around the grill.
+
+[34:49] Remember the chainsaw, the tree fell down. I cut all those benches with the chainsaw, because uh, you know, I think chainsaw art is like, you know, I like chain, I'm not good at it, but like I like everybody really likes playing with chainsaws, don't you think? Okay. Wouldn't you like playing with a chainsaw? No.
+
+[35:03] You have no desire to play with chainsaws? No. Jack, you? Yeah, totally. Yeah.
+
+[35:08] My uh I used to have a I used to like not wake up when I was a kid, you know. I I'd like to sleep in and stuff, and my grandpa once walked into my room with a chainsaw. Wow. Revved it up. That did the trick.
+
+[35:18] Wow, where was grandpa from? Sicily. Nice. Nice. So, like crazy Sicilian grandpa with a chainsaw.
+
+[35:26] That'll that'll get you up. Yeah, that'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I like chainsaws.
+
+[35:32] Uh I have never have not yet been severely damaged by one, thank goodness. Anyway, so I had this cowboy grill. Um, and I have to say, uh, you know, I'm a big fan of the vertical grilling in the tandoor, but I was like, I'm gonna try to cook something so people can actually hang out with me while I'm cooking, so I have all the benches. So those things actually cook like a monster because they are like imagine a Weber grill that is like two and a half feet across or more. How big is this, Doss?
+
+[36:00] Like three feet? Mm-hmm. It's like three feet across. So what you do is the way you use this, and so I'm I'm actually recommending this as a cooking implement, strangely, is you take a chimney, uh you take a chimney starter for charcoal, you fill it full of hardwood charcoal. I use the cowboy brand because it fits with the cowboy grill.
+
+[36:16] Actually, it's just the one I use, the red one. Uh, and you put actually it's not cowboy, maybe it's Royal Oak, and you pour it into the chimney thing, you put one thing of paper underneath, you light it with the torch, and the coals start after like 20 minutes. We've all used chimney starters, right? Now, a chimney starter is in no way, shape, form, kind color enough charcoal to cook on this thing because it's like it would be the equivalent of putting like two pieces of charcoal in a Weber, right? It's like nothing.
+
+[36:42] So, what you do is you dump the chimney down and then you build your TP of like, you know, how big is that, Styles Across? Um two inches. All right, yeah. You take like your two-inch sticks and you layer them like a teepee over the burning coals, and then you take your big pieces of like firewood that you use for fire, and you make another TP around that, and because the coals are so hot, the wood lights in like in in less than like 20 minutes, the wood is already so on fire that you can spread it out over the entire thing, and now you have like a three-foot circle of instant death that you can put the grill on top of, and it's just a freaking monster. Like it's such a freaking monster.
+
+[37:22] I did bluefish on it, so like I put them, you know, I I have those uh I have like infinite kinds of like skewers and baskets for my uh Tandoor. So like I you know, I'm doing it and I was like, man, this sucker really freaking cranks. So I would say if you're a fan of Weber style cooking, go get you a cowboy grill if you really need to cook for a lot of people. Because does anyone like waiting around to like swap stuff off and on the Weber grill? No.
+
+[37:48] Everybody hates it, right? And so the the thing about the cool thing about this is it's got a little swing over um grate that's like a warming grate, it's like a second level above the other one, and you can kind of adjust the height of that, and it's got a swing over for a boil kettle, right? So it swings over. So what you do is, but you know, like a lot of people what they want to do in their grilling is they want to switch the height of their grill up and down to to adjust the heat. I find that cooking with the tandoor, what you want to do is get a uniform kind of like high heat.
+
+[38:17] Although I I don't know, I don't know whether it's talking on air or talking later with Jim. I've lowered my I've lowered my super high cooking temperatures pretty much across the board. So now with my tandoor, I I kind of do a first burnout low, then I put all my breads in, my non's, because I find that my was I talking about this on Air, Jack? I think so. I was talking about lowering the temperature of the to bake the nons.
+
+[38:38] Uh I I think so. Stars maybe. She wasn't here. She was oh last week. She was in my anus during the whole show.
+
+[38:45] You know. Um they want to repeat it anyway. All right, right. So in other words, like normally with a tandoor you get a scorching hot, right? And then you you you want, and I think this is the same as true with like most pizzas.
+
+[38:56] I think most pizza doughs and most pizzas, uh you know, I I've been doing super super hot for a long time. And I'm thinking uh I like now to reduce the temperatures a little bit. I find I like the interior texture better if the bake time's a little bit longer. And so lower temperature. So what I'll do is for the tandoor is I'll do a relatively long fire to fire it up to like a nice uh even temp, do my breads, and then I'll throw another chimney of charcoal in to do my meats, my like shrimp, stuff that you want like really fast.
+
+[39:28] Anyway, but I find with the grill, I think most things, and this is another thing I you know uh that I've been thinking a lot about recently is uh moisture, moisture control and surface effects. I think you can gain a lot when you're grilling by just going off on off on off on off on or putting on the warm and just like constantly moving the thing around. So you don't really need to worry, I think about having a billion different heat levels as long as you're on top of it. You know what I mean? If you want to be a jamoke and just throw something on the hot side for a couple seconds to uh you know, a couple minutes to make the crust and then throw it on the cold side, I guess you could do that too, but you know, I find that if you just keep the thing cranking at a pretty hardcore rate, you can just slam the stuff out as long as you're on top of it.
+
+[40:09] Anyway, so cowboy grill uh I'm definitely uh pro. The other thing that I'm gonna do that this summer. Oh, but here's the here's why I brought it up. So then the next day, when we had a bunch of people coming over, right, after I grilled the bluefish, my first bluefish of the season, delicious. Do you like blue fish?
+
+[40:25] I don't know. Huh, Jack, you like blue fish? Yeah. I love bluefish. Bluefish is now becoming popular because everyone now is liking fish that they didn't used to like.
+
+[40:29] It is around a lot now. Yeah, it's delicious, but it's oily. You know what I mean? And so, like, if you if you talk to an old timer, like when I bought it, they were like, when did that fish come in? And the guy's like, today, of course, because what are they going to say?
+
+[40:45] And you're just like, no, no. When was it caught? And he's like, freaking today. Today, freaking today. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:51] And she wouldn't buy it until I bought a piece and she smelled my piece. She's like, okay, I'll take a piece. You know what I mean? But I don't know why the guy didn't just offer to let her smell the fish in the first place. So I had to be an intermediary at whatever.
+
+[41:03] Uh and I did the old school. You know that have I talked about this on there? You know the old school of bluefish? The old old timers recipe is to put mayonnaise on the bluefish. You know what the old theory, which is garbage, is the oil gets out oil.
+
+[41:15] It doesn't make any freaking sense. But the man is it all? No. No, that's why it doesn't make any freaking sense. But the mayonnaise is good.
+
+[41:22] It forms like a nice crust. So you mayonnaise salt, pepper, and then only on the on the meat side, not on the skin side. Mm-hmm. Anyway. So that then the next day when a bunch of people came over, they're like, you know what?
+
+[41:33] We don't want to sit with you next to the grill while you're cooking all the food. We're gonna sit on the deck. I'm like, of course. So now I'm gonna build, I want to build a deck-friendly cooking thing. And here's the thing when you're cooking outside, what are you missing?
+
+[41:45] Usually, don't know. A way to cook things that want to be cooked on ranges, right? So a lot of people will take a walk and they'll try to put it on their grill, which I think is weak, or they'll do a bunch of uh other things. They'll put pans on grills, which I think is problematic. But I'm gonna build an outdoor uh walk burner.
+
+[42:03] So I need some I need some advice from people. I'm either gonna get what's called the Big Kahuna, which is a uh a gas-fired 65,000 BTU propane wok burner, or buy uh one of those uh Thai uh charcoal stoves that you that you like hold a wok, or maybe get both. I don't know. But I'm gonna get a uh the wok burner. And the other problem is is that you know why I don't use my outdoor fryer enough, Stas?
+
+[42:27] No. Because my outdoor fryer is not sealed. I realize this is that if you have to completely drain clean, dry, and store a fryer every time you use it, especially when you're using six gallons of oil, you don't do it that often. You know what I mean? Whereas uh if I could just have my fryer act like my indoor fryer, like completely seal it from all pests, then I can just uh I can just strain it, keep the oil in in in fine feather, cover it, and then just go back and fry with it.
+
+[42:55] Because honestly, if you're just making like if you're just making like like four or five pounds of tortilla chips or like a couple of chickens, are you really gonna sit there and fill an entire fryer with six gallons of oil, then at the end of the night strain it out, clean it, and drop it in? Whereas back when it was sitting at home inside, I would just fire up the freaking fryer, do the tortilla chips, let it cool down and cover it, right? So I'm gonna work on that. I'll let you know. I'll let you people, good people know.
+
+[43:23] Uh another thing is that I know I said earlier at the beginning of the year that this was gonna be the year of starch. I finally started working on it. Right now, my newest thing, I I tweeted it out or something potato starch, big on potato starch. I've been working on the Korean fried uh chicken my Korean fried chicken recipe. I'm getting very close to a Korean fried chicken that I like.
+
+[43:40] Jack, you like Korean fried chicken? Yes. What do you like better? American fried chicken or Korean fried chicken? American.
+
+[43:46] Really? Interesting. What style of American fried chicken? What's your ultimate fried chicken style? Don't know.
+
+[43:52] Mine's hot chicken, like Nashville style hot chicken. So how's that? Like I've never been to Nashville. So what's that? Oh, really?
+
+[43:57] Yeah. It's just fried chicken with a shit ton of spice on it. Oops, sorry for the cards. So is it, but is it is it is the crust more like uh more like uh uh KFC original, more like an X Krispy, more like a Popeye, it's more like a traditional southern soft crust. No, no, no, it's a cr a crunchy, crunchy crust.
+
+[44:13] Yeah. Thick, thick, crunchy crust. Uh huh. See, the interesting thing about the uh Kentucky fried chicken, sorry, the uh Korean fried chicken, obviously, is that it's like super thin. So some people, when they do the recipes for it, they do a thin batter, which is I think a mistake.
+
+[44:27] And this goes back to what I was saying before about it's all about moisture control. So obviously, everybody who really knows how to how to do this, right, they do multiple fryings. And what you're doing during the multiple fryings is controlling the um controlling the crust, controlling the formation of the skin and and the crust, which is why you can get a hyper thin, shattering uh crust on a on a on a Korean fried chicken using fundamentally just the skin. So what I'm working towards, you know, the Koreans use these small chickens and they fry the whole thing whole, right? I want to do a larger American style in the Korean uh of chicken in the using low temp cooking.
+
+[45:04] So I've been testing with low temp cooking first and then doing a triple fry on it with potato starch as the as the as the base for the crust. And I want to do a blues brothers four whole fried chickens and dry white toast dinner. Now the thing is I haven't figured out I figured it out, I'm pretty close. I'd say I'm 95% of the way there with getting being able to make four whole fried chickens that are delicious all the way through. Perfect.
+
+[45:26] But what I've not been able to do yet is make dry white toast that I want to eat by itself. Do you know what I'm saying? You guys familiar with this movie? No. You've never seen the Blues Brothers?
+
+[45:38] Yeah, yeah. I've seen it. So they walk, they're trying to get uh McIntar Murphy to leave Aretha Franklin where they're working at this greasy spoon in Chicago and go out on the road with them to form the band because they're on a mission from God, right? Okay. So uh what they do is they go in there and Belushi orders four whole fried chickens, and Dan Aykroyd orders dry white toast, and that's how McIntyre Murphy knows that the blues because this is what they eat.
+
+[46:05] But who the hell eats dry white toast on its own? Don't know. Can you imagine? Can anyone imagine what good dry white toast to eat on its own is? Like, what would it mean to make dry white toast that you would eat on its own?
+
+[46:19] Is Dan Aykroyd just trying to say like I'm a horrible person? And and Belushi is trying to say I merely am a hedonist and I want four whole fried chickens, and therefore I will eat whole, and then Dan Ackroy is just like I am I am I am just a a no a non-entity, even though like that's clearly not the case. What do you think, Jack? What do you think about the dry white toast? I don't know.
+
+[46:40] Maybe he had he had to duck out, I guess, but like the dry white toast is not something that I can imagine. I've thought a lot about toast, right? The texture of toast. Like what when you eat toast, what do you hide what kind of toast do you like? Just white toast.
+
+[46:54] Yeah, but what is the texture like? Oh. Crunchy? You like crunchy? So more of a British, more like a Melba toast.
+
+[47:01] Like where you break it in half and it shatters into a million pieces? No, no, no. You need like a good crunch on the outside and then a little bit of chew in the middle, yeah. Right. So you're dealing with another moisture control problem.
+
+[47:11] And this is what we talked about this before when that guy came and we did that uh TV shoot about toast, the guy wasn't even thinking straight about it. When a toaster is done, what do you do? What's the first thing you do when the toaster goes uh if you have a toaster oven? If it's not a pop-up, what do you do? Take the toast out?
+
+[47:26] Open the freaking door to let the moisture come out, or it's gonna be ruined. What's the worst thing you can do to toast? Take it and put it on a plate right away. You're ruining the freaking toast. Because when you put the toast on the plate, have you never done this?
+
+[47:38] You take toast right out of the toaster, you put it on the plate, you let it sit there. What happens when you lift the toast? I don't know. There's all water and steam and condensed garbage underneath the toast. And the bottom of the toast is ruined.
+
+[47:49] Dax did Dax did this to toast over the weekend because I uh I made uh some seafood salad and we had it uh, you know, seafood salad sandwiches, and and he made the toast, and he did that to the toast, and it was all I could do not to like lose it. You don't want steamed Jack, are you with me on this? Yeah, definitely. And Erica's back here, she says you need a toast rack. Yeah, so I have a whole bunch.
+
+[48:10] Erica's totally right. I have a whole bunch of uh quarter, and this is by the way, something that everyone should buy. Um, and this is another thing. I'm actually talking to my editor about it, is a kitchen organization in general, even though I'm the most disorganized person on earth. I think that actually gives me some reason to be interested in the idea of kitchen organization.
+
+[48:26] I have stacks of quarter racks, and so quarter rack, quarter sheet pan rack is very useful uh for moving stuff around, and they're very kind of portable and they stack up. So my toaster, literally on top of my toaster are stacks of quarter racks that I can just put whatever pancakes, toast, anything that has a moisture control problem. So the whole kind of thing boils down to everything is moisture control. Fried chicken is a moisture control problem, toys toast is a moisture control problem. All of these things, uh grilling properly to get the crust right before the inside is done, is a moisture control problem.
+
+[49:00] Uh, and that is in essence, all I think about all day is getting the outside uh and the inside at their proper kind of moistures and doneness at the right time. And all the tech that we use, all the low temperature cooking, really all we're doing is trying to more effectively make the inside be the way we want and the outside be the way we want. So it all comes down to moisture control, cooking issues.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[49:54] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm. For more information, visit nettle meadow cheese and spirits.com. That's N-E-T-T-L-E, Meadow Cheese and Spirits dot com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:24] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 in Bushwick, Brooklyn at Roberta's Pizzeria. You guys should see the drugs that Dave huffs before he does that every time. So calling your calling your questions.
+
+[0:59] It's a sad show today. Immediately after that, you just said it here, too. It's a sad yeah, it's a sad show today. That was a great intro, though. Thank you.
+
+[1:06] I switched it up a little bit for you. Uh today is we not in the booth today, in the what do you call this? In the room with us today, not in the booth is uh Jack Insley, Jackie Molecules. It's his last it's his last cooking issues. Jack is leaving us.
+
+[1:21] And so uh it's you know, it's it's sad. And he's not in the booth to give us the sad noise. I know. But like, you know, this picture on Well, but the good news is he's gonna go on on tour, uh, which he'll talk about in a minute for a couple of months, and then he's uh gonna start his uh own uh radio station down in uh Washington. Why don't you tell us about it, Jack?
+
+[1:43] Yeah, Washington, DC. It's gonna be I can't give too many details away yet. Uh the ink is not dry, but it'll be a really, really exciting radio station. I'm starting in a really cool public space uh in in DC. So uh some food.
+
+[1:56] Yeah. Now now you play the sound. Yeah. Nice, nice, nice. It'll be some food, uh lots of music, of course, some politics by nature of the city.
+
+[2:09] Um countercultures, all kinds of stuff. It'll be fun. Wait, so what but before politics, what subjects? Food, of course. Okay, some food, and those food shows hopefully, you know, we'll we'll be sharing those with heritage and uh a lot of music, a lot of DJ shows and uh live music.
+
+[2:24] When you say DJ like like stuff like that you are more like what kind of like well, no, I want like uh, you know, go go is like the the thing in DC or like uh for real, like old school? Yeah, like hardcore, like you know, there's DC hardcore like old school hardcore, like bad brains? Sure. I'm I'm open. It'll be all all genres of music.
+
+[2:43] Uh definitely not really club music, I don't think so. No. Not even a little in just for some late night stuff. So uh here to uh by the way, are you gonna be open? You think the radio show is gonna st a station is gonna open before the elections in November?
+
+[2:58] No, but I'll be down, I'm moving in September to DC. So if any listeners are in DC and want to hang out, uh I need some friends, so so get at me. And uh I'll be recording, like compiling content starting in September and definitely covering the election. So nice, cool. Uh and to uh wish uh Jack farewell, we got a full uh full room here today.
+
+[3:16] We got uh Peter Kim, who maybe he can piss off Jack today instead of pissing me off. You know? You got uh I think people want me are want me here to needle you, Dave. So yeah, but you know, you can needle me all the time. This is your last molecules.
+
+[3:31] By the way. I like Jack. I have a lot of respect for Dak. Oh, strong. Jack is Jack is a high quality individual.
+
+[3:39] We got uh we got uh cooking Issues friend uh Paul Adams here from uh the popular the science that is popular. How are you doing? That's correct, I'm here. Yeah. Uh also fan of skunks.
+
+[3:44] I don't know if you know this, and fan of skunks. For for Omer Captain included. Uh I don't know. It's okay, yeah. Yeah, and uh To be more accurate, skunks are a fan of me.
+
+[3:59] Uh uh and uh and also uh avid uh what's like uh like Rocketeer for drones? Like drone a tier? No. Like droner. No, listeners call in with your suggestion.
+
+[4:11] Yeah. Uh and uh as usual, the the uh ever ebullient Nastasia the Hammer Lopez here. Yeah, yeah. So uh for Jack's last day, we have some uh we have some bubbly Nastasi's gonna open it because if there's one thing that makes her happy, it's gotta be uh the bubbly. That's true.
+
+[4:30] By the way, Paul's a drone thug. Drone thug? Oh. Which are you the harmony? Yeah.
+
+[4:35] Wow. Now now I need you to like during the commercial break. I didn't even have to wait. I didn't have to wait. I was like, you can rework the lyrics while we're oh man.
+
+[4:47] Uh strong. Quick. Strong, strong. You know, I saw a uh like a fat uh like a fast rapping, like my Dax is obsessed with rappers that can rap quickly. I probably already have talked about this on the radio show.
+
+[4:59] I'm like the ones you don't even know what you're talking about. But anyway, one of them like Is this from the moped event? I don't remember. He's like super. It's because I was gonna meet, I think, Buster Rhymes at one time, and I didn't get to meet Buster Rhymes.
+
+[5:12] And then uh and so and he had thought Eminem was the fastest wrapper, and I was like, you don't know what you're talking about. It's not even in contention. First of all, like speed isn't you it's speed with flow is what's important, not like you know what I mean. I was like There's one answer to this question. It's Twister.
+
+[5:28] Uh well, technically, yeah, but I mean, was is that the fast stuff that you'd listen to? Like on a daily basis? Yeah, he's good. I mean, I have some of it. Right, I mean, all right.
+
+[5:29] Okay. Anyway, uh, we can all agree it's not MM. No, it's not M. Like that part we can agree with. Anyway, so then uh I don't know, I don't even remember how I got into it.
+
+[5:46] Let's get let's let's get to some uh some questions. But before we do, remember, you have a short time left to call in all of your molecule-related questions to Jackie Molecules. I wish we got expert on molecules. We gotta get that ringtone back. Do you have it?
+
+[5:58] You have another thing you can play it. I didn't know if I still have it on here. Uh 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Hey, we got a caller.
+
+[6:08] Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, hey, um, so before I ask my question, uh, just real quick, I wanted to um extend a sincere thank you to Jack for all the time he's put in. Um good luck in everything that he's doing. Thank you. Um, so are you there?
+
+[6:32] Yeah. No, and goodbye. So my my question uh is my brother recently got married, and I was asked to make a groom's cake, and so I decided to make the milk bar uh mini chocolate chip cake with the passion fruit curd. And um, because I couldn't find Passion Fruit Curd locally and it was uh there was a time constraint, I went ahead and used the really crappy mango nectar. And um I felt kind of like an enemy of quality, but um something something really weird happened because I followed the recipe to a tea, but when I made the uh the curd filling, um the egg mixture like totally curdled and like the little protein particles started to like block out and like agglomerate.
+
+[7:17] And the weirdest thing happened because after I mixed in the butter in the food processor, it became totally silky smooth again. And I'm just wondering why it would like curdle and then be able to come back to being totally smooth again. Huh. Well, hold on a second. Let me cheers Jack while we're while we're while I'm thinking.
+
+[7:34] Cheers. Huh. So I don't know why it broke. That's uh it's interesting. The um Peter wouldn't cheers me.
+
+[7:43] Speaking of enemy of quality. So weak. I'm in the room there. You won't even cheese like I'll cheers everyone with that. Uh I don't know.
+
+[7:49] I mean, I've never I've never actually interestingly, uh I mean, I've eaten a whole hell of a lot of mango in my life, including Nastasia and Harold McGee and I went down to pound mangoes in Florida once. It was a nightmare of a trip, actually, but we can talk about that later. Complete nightmare. Uh, and led me to the knowledge that tropical fruit people are very possessive of their fruit. Whether they're ever gonna freaking eat it or not.
+
+[8:12] I'm like, I've said this before. I'm like a temperate fruit person where they're like, Yeah, take all the apples. I don't care, I don't eat these things, I just collect the trees. Like the people in the tropics are like, touch my mango, you're dead. I'm like, you have billions.
+
+[8:22] Anyway, whatever. I've uh but the strange thing is I have never cooked with mango. Ever. I've only ever eaten mango. I've made mango into drinks, and I've used mango in cold prep, but I've never cooked a mango.
+
+[8:38] Mangoes are relatives of uh let me see, they're the relatives actually of like poison ivy and uh cashews. I think they're anacardacy, I think, but it's been a long time since I've looked that up. Uh yeah, uh so they contain a latex in them, but I don't know of anything that necessarily would break occurred. I wonder whether anyone out there in the chat room has had an experience uh cooking mangoes and can uh can can help us out. But as for the silky smooth, there's lots of times when you get like kind of a micro break in something, and then when you blend the hell uh you know out of it with another like smooth, especially emulsified ingredient like butter, it'll come back into shape on you.
+
+[9:15] In fact, uh I have a recipe for uh milk syrup, which I'm actually gonna talk about later because of a question we have if we get to it, where the whole point is you make a micro break in it. So you stabilize the milk with sugar, you make a micro break in it with uh with a little bit of acid, and it curds it a little bit, and that like little bit of break actually keeps it smooth because you break the the the pieces that have broken, you break them into into pieces smaller than your tongue can taste, which is roughly uh 20 micrometers is roughly the limit that your tongue can sense in terms of now you can sense different textures smoother than that, like things can become more uncuous all of a sudden, but the in terms of actual grit or or particles, you can't really tell uh much below 20 uh 20 micrometers. So um it's micro it is microcommeters right now. Yeah. Uh the uh getting my I'm making sure that I'm metric.
+
+[10:08] The uh but the point being that um it's it's easy to do, and so if something is breaks a little bit, it can actually be more stabilized if the ensuing actions break it into pieces that are as finer than your tongue can taste and it no longer agglomerates afterwards. I don't know, is that helpful at all? Yeah, I gotcha. That makes total sense. Yeah.
+
+[10:27] So I'm thinking that's what happened. I'm I'm thinking what that you did some sort of partial break, and then when you put it into the other thing, it just you know brought it all back together, and whatever the partial break was, uh is stable now. Now, uh uh the flip is I have no freaking idea what's in mango that would make it behave differently. If anything, I would guess passion fruit would be the evil thing because it's so acidic, you know? Yeah.
+
+[10:44] Yeah. Was the mango puree nasty? Or was it good? Did it taste nasty? Uh no, it was it came out like exactly how I wanted it.
+
+[10:59] Like you could not even tell that it had remotely even broken at all. So you did not ruin the wedding? No. For that reason. Yeah, no, but I was gonna say, did you ruin the wedding some other way?
+
+[11:10] Did you do some sort of like Steve B. semi toast at the end and like, you know? No, I didn't I didn't bring any plain white toast either. Oh man. Well, we're working on it.
+
+[11:19] We'll work on the plain white, we'll work on the good plain white toast. Thanks for calling in. Yes, yeah. All right. So, uh see what we got here.
+
+[11:27] Uh well, might as well do the milk question now, right? Yeah. Unless any do you guys do you guys have any pressing cooking questions before I get to the while you're talking about passion fruit? Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, while you're talking about passion fruit, why is passion fruit so delicious?
+
+[11:40] Ah. Do you know there are very, very many different kinds of uh Passaflora uh fruits that you know, the whole the genus, right, Passaflora fruits that um are consumed worldwide, um, especially in South America. And we only get one of them. Maybe two. Like nowadays, you can sometimes get the yellow, like the grenadilla style ones up here.
+
+[12:02] But you we usually get the small wrinkly ones. And I like them all, but they aren't all strictly speaking, delicious. Do you do you like well, Paul does, I'm sure, but do you like musky flavors, folks? Stas, what about what do you think about a musky fruit? No.
+
+[12:15] No, Peter? Yeah. No? Sound very good. There's like some very musky Passaflora ones, uh in like weird shapes.
+
+[12:23] Like there's one that looks like an overgrown uh Australian finger lime kind of Koruba, and and it's got a very musky kind of note to it. So maybe that's not inherently delicious. But also, like there's something, you know how lychee gets sweaty? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[12:39] So I think sometimes passion fruit, it's not the same kind of sweat, but I can get some sweat on a passion fruit. What do you guys think? Sweat on a fruit. But I like it. I do think it's delicious.
+
+[12:49] It's just so acidic. I like anything freaking acidic, and I like the texture of the little seedy seeds. It's acidic, but it's also got that like juiciness that's a certain kind of acidity that Yuzu has. A couple of other tropical fruits. Also, related question.
+
+[13:06] You know how like you group together tropical fruit flavors as sort of a category? Is there an actual common thread between tropical fruits? I asked someone that once, and you know what the answer was? They didn't answer my question. So I don't know.
+
+[13:18] I mean You think about like right, like mango, banana, papaya. Well, okay. Those are all your lactone fruits, right? Well, and like a lot of them have a lot of real high ester notes too, and you know, like a lot of those really kind of like high volatilizing things. I don't know.
+
+[13:32] Maybe there's something about tropical environment that requires fruits to be extremely volatile. In not like volatile, like I'm volatile, like volatile like aroma chemicals. Uh but the um it is interesting, but i it's true. It's it's very there are very few temperate fruits that have tropical notes in them. Strawberries, right?
+
+[13:53] Have a little bit of that, although they're clearly a temperate taste, but they can some of the other ones have some higher notes, especially when they start to go off. Peach. Uh yeah, a good peach. A good peach. Some apples.
+
+[14:04] Yeah, the rare apple. But like, you know what the the uh the one that really tastes like it's a tropical fruit that is completely temperate is uh the May apple, the American uh it's but you can't get it because it's poisonous. But it's not really poisonous, but it's like kind of poisonous. It's like mezzo mezzo poisonous. It's like it's like it's poisonous to the extent that if they sold it in the supermarket, somebody would kill themselves because they would eat the seeds and they would eat it unripe.
+
+[14:31] But once it's ripened, and uh I only got a couple of them last year. I have a whole like plot of them, and I was like, I'm gonna let them ripen one more week before I pull them in. And in that week, the animals came and ate everyone but two. I'm talking I have like bigger than this studio of like uh uh may apple tree, uh, you know, un you know, whatever they're called, little plants. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:53] It's perennial. And um all gone, but two. But when it finally ripened, man, that was delicious. It'd be worth dying for, the poisonous. Because it's like tropical, but it grows in Connecticut.
+
+[15:04] Anyway. When does it hit? Uh they're on the thing now. Right now, they're the size of what size is that? They're this big.
+
+[15:13] The size of a ripe may apple. Nah, they're the si the size of a large shooter marble. Yeah. Wow. But uh the uh they're good, they're still green.
+
+[15:23] I've just got to I can't let them go. It's that one week. As soon as they start to show shine show signs of ripening, I'm gonna pull them and let them ripen inside. You can get them this weekend, though. No, it needs to go longer than that.
+
+[15:32] It says May because they show up in May, but like last year it wasn't like it was after Fourth of July is when they got when they got taken. This year is so weird anyway, with uh with what's it called? What's it called? Weather. What's that thing?
+
+[15:44] What's that thing? Weather. Uh anyway, so that's a delicious tropical fruit. You know what a fruit that I've never tried that I grew up with, but I was always petrified of? You familiar you guys familiar with U, Y E W, U, the Wood?
+
+[15:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, Taxodium species, I think. And so uh so it obviously it doesn't have actual technical fruit because it's a conifer, so it does not an angiosperm, has no flowers, therefore it has no fruit. Right?
+
+[16:09] Right. So, but it has what's called an arrow that looks like a fru fruit, and we'll and it's like a red, we'll call it a berry, even though it's not a berry, but it's a red berry. Yeah, Jack has a fruit on it. You can always tell uh a U because it's got the red berries on it, and the red berries have like a hole in the front of them, like sunken. They look like a cup.
+
+[16:26] Right. Like an olive. Like an olive. Like a pitted olive. Yeah, like a pitted olive, right?
+
+[16:30] Like a like a red m mini red martini olive. And uh, and so what's interesting is is that even a couple of the seeds crushed will kill you. But the fruit, apparently, the actual arrow itself, the red part, okay. That's yeah, I'm not taking that. But I don't have I don't have the cojones, I don't got the stones.
+
+[16:49] I do, but is it delicious? Uh I don't know. I haven't found anyone that's actually eaten it. Where's the seeds? Right inside the damn thing.
+
+[16:56] So you have to like squash them, but not crush the seeds. No way. And like, and make sure you spit the seeds out because literally I've read cases of like kids who've eaten three of them are down. Yeah, down for the now, strangely, strangely, the conifer hemlock, not related to the poisonous hemlock, totally edible. You can make a tea from the hemlock.
+
+[17:18] Mm-hmm. Right, and apparently nice beds, because it's nice and soft if you're in the woods woodcrafting. But uh you, no. So you doesn't sound poisonous, sounds fine, is deadly poisonous. Hemlock sounds poisonous, is not, it's the water hemlock that's poisonous, which is as we all know, related to parsley and all those things, which is why you should never forage for what, Peter?
+
+[17:36] Uh wild freaking parsley, Peter. You're gonna kill your whole family. Never forage for wild freaking parsley. Hey Dave, we got another caller on the line. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[17:46] Hey Dave, how's it going? Doing all right. Good. It's uh Chris from the Green Zone in DC. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[17:52] Good, how are you? Hey, did you ever have any luck with uh like uh m stabilized mint tea green liquors? No, not really. Have you ever thought did you ever try doing a fruit question for you as long as we're talking about fruits and acid. Alright, alright.
+
+[18:06] Um I'm doing a drink that has bitter orange juice in it, but bitter oranges are now out of season, and I wanted to know if there are any substitutes. Okay. Does uh look, I don't know anything about DC. Do you have a hardcore Latin neighborhood in DC? Sort of.
+
+[18:21] Bitter oranges are never out of season in Latin markets, but they're not the good I mean, okay. I don't want to be like they're not the ones that you might think of as good ones. Like they're not Sevilles, they're not like they don't have really nice uh skins or anything like that. No, that's fine, because I'm using the juice. Yeah, and the juice, to be honest, not like super on point point, but it's got not just the sourness.
+
+[18:45] So, like, you know, obviously at the bar, like I take regular oranges and I hit it with acid to get the acid profile that I like. Right. But it doesn't have the kind of bitterness that the bitter oranges have. But Latin markets have their version of bitter orange, you know, that's like mashed up with garlic and whatnot. Like they have them like all year long.
+
+[19:03] At least i in New York they do. They have them all year long. Yeah, and you can get it bottled the most. Oh, yeah, but come on. Really?
+
+[19:10] You can buy that in a bottle? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's with garlic, so you probably wouldn't want it in the bar. Yeah, and also, like, I can't think of anything.
+
+[19:19] Do you like Paul? Do you like uh that like that chopped last year garlic stuff? I haven't really tried it. You know what I'm talking about? It's that it's that thing that looks like convenience garlic.
+
+[19:31] Yeah. It's like weird. Yeah, that stuff's nasty. My grandma used to buy that exclusively. My grandma, you know, died in the I don't know, like early nineties, maybe.
+
+[19:39] Yeah, early nineties. She was like, look what they can do now. They can put chopped up garlic in a jar. I'm like, no, they can't, grandma. You tasted this stuff?
+
+[19:49] You know what I mean? Anyway, um, whatever. But so I I I would do that. Or I would say that you, you know, you could try acid adjusting it, but it's not going to have that um that bitter. What what blend of acids is in a bitter orange?
+
+[20:03] Well, okay, I cheat, and I just turn it into lime juice. And so if you take, I mean, like, I have the recipe for that in the book, but look, here's the thing. I would assume I've ta I've used straight bitter oranges off the trees in uh in Arizona, and I've used straight bitter orange juice for cocktails uh before. I don't remember what the ratio is, but it's pretty damn close to lemon or lime juice in terms of total acidity. And so what what you're looking at there is a six percent.
+
+[20:31] You're just looking at six percent acidity. So you can choose what kind of acidity you want. You know, if you want if you want to stay more on the lemon side, then you know, citric. If you want to shade it towards the lime side, you know, all the way so two to one mal. I wouldn't go more than uh two to one uh citric to malloc.
+
+[20:49] I wouldn't go higher in malloc, because I don't think it's gonna taste citrus anymore. I think it'll take on some other kind of notes. But like anywhere in that uh in that ratio is is fine. And you know, the the the ratio to turn it into lime juice would be uh thirty-two roughly, depending on the oranges, you have roughly thirty two grams of citric and 20 grams of malloc per liter. So you're looking at an additional acid of uh someone help me out of thirty to fifty two grams of acid per liter in any sort of ratio up to about twenty grams of malic should do it.
+
+[21:23] Uh and that way all of your bartenders can just use it as though it were lemon or lime juice and you don't have to worry about them like being like oh I got a flat or I gotta I gotta use a fat half ounce of this because it's not the same. The th the crappy thing about the it the the juice the yield on the on the Latin uh sour oranges is bad if you um are going to strain it because the pulp tends to be very coarse and so you lose kind of a lot to the pulping uh the pulp straining but you know try it they're they're okay I like them but they're different they're very different from the Seville's very well what about the uh the bitterness element oh they're bitter. I mean they're bitter ish. You know what I mean? No I mean if I'm if I'm doping orange juice.
+
+[22:07] Oh yeah. I mean you can j I mean you could add any sort of like bitter anything I guess or you could like throw some peel in there and let it macerate for a while. You know what I mean? And then that that would be what about like um bitter orange essential oil. Oh I never used it.
+
+[22:23] Uh I never used it. You probably want to suspend that in some alcohol and then stir it in but it might break you might need to have a little bit of umablic or something. Yeah. See what see what I've got that as you probably remember it's a lot of like let us know how it works. Yeah I'll go to Side.
+
+[22:42] Uh Jack should definitely come check out green zoners in DC Oh that's right. Yeah. You sure will. Call in from call in from there to one of the shows and go and go do it. Yeah.
+
+[22:50] But you gotta figure out the mint before he comes out he's not gonna come to you until you figure out the green mint. That's right. Yeah. Alrighty. All right, well, we'll work on it.
+
+[23:00] All right. So should we go back to the question? Got another caller too. Oh, call okay, caller. You're on the air.
+
+[23:05] Hey there, Dave. Uh I got a quick question for you. But first, I also want to say thank you, Jack. Uh, congrats on your new venture. That sounds pretty awesome, dude.
+
+[23:13] Thanks, man. Yeah. Um, okay, so Dave, um I've been doing a sourdough culture for a while, like a couple of years. Um, and have fed it with all different types of flour, but recently have been feeding it with gold metal. Right.
+
+[23:31] Um, and they just had a big recall uh because of possible E. coli contamination on some of their some of their flowers. So my question is, um, you remind me of the time and temperature killing regimen for E. coli, and like am I gonna have to toss out my two-year-old sourdough starter because I'm gonna go ahead and say no. The chances the chances of you the God's honest truth is I don't know whether look, your sourdough starter isn't gonna kill E.
+
+[24:06] coli, but I don't like your sourdough starter is a huge mélange of different microbes, and I think you're probably the E. coli is probably gonna get way out competed, especially over if you're keeping it alive, it means you're feeding it and using it on a regular basis. And so uh it's gonna get out competed, and there's E. coli is what we in the trade like refer to as ubiquitous. It's everywhere.
+
+[24:28] So the you know, if you have a toddler anywhere in the house, it's gotten anywhere near it, you've like E. coli up and down all over, like, you know, left and right all over that. Unless you dip your hands in bleach every time that you're touching it, like there E. coli has gotten in it before. So I would say no.
+
+[24:44] I wouldn't worry about it. Um, unless you're eating sourdough raw, like you are cooking the hell out of uh bread. Even if you let's say you let your sourdough go for such a long time that it's an acid bomb and you need to bring it back, and so you make pancakes with a whole bunch of it so that you can have a small amount that you bring back to life again, which is a valid use because as we all know, sourdough pancakes, you're using the acidity of the sourdough starter of an overdone sourdough starter uh in in conjunction with um baking soda as a base, you're not actually using the the actual acid, uh the actual um flora of it. Anyway, so even in that pancakes are you're cooking the hell out of a pancake and you're gonna be killing the hell out of the E. coli.
+
+[25:28] Yeah. Yeah, I think all the gold metal illnesses were from people eating raw dough. Yeah, raw dough. And remember this, like, so what happened now? No, obviously, obviously, sourdough starter is a good place for bacterial and yeast growth.
+
+[25:44] Otherwise, guess what? It wouldn't work, right? But the but I'm I'm thinking you're gonna be out competed, and I would not, I mean, like, there's so many chances for contamination. And just think of the lawsuits. I'm just kidding.
+
+[25:56] I'm not kidding, I'm kidding. I've never never recommended, never recommend, never recommend lawsuits. But uh, I'll also say this uh uh you there must have been, I haven't read the research since I looked at it originally, but it must have been uh contamination of a liquid on a grain, perhaps when it was going through the tempering step prior to being milled. Uh, there's a couple of places that you can get contamination on the grain, and then uh obviously, you know, you're not killing the bacteria. Uh it can go dormant in the dry conditions, and that's how it can theoretically survive, yada yada.
+
+[26:29] But um I'm I personally I would feed it to my family. That's all I'm saying. But cook it. Awesome. Okay.
+
+[26:36] Cool. Thanks, Dave. Alrighty. Appreciate it. No problem.
+
+[26:39] Okay. Back to the milk question. Yeah, what's this milk question? Alright, this is Ben from Rhode Island. He says, making a clarified milk punch.
+
+[26:46] I want to keep the punch base, grapefruit, pineapple, whole milk, matcha tea, separate from uh the booze, so I can figure it out as an a la carte cocktail, use it with different spirits and minimize waste. I'm getting very small curds. That's my next band. Yeah. Small curds.
+
+[26:59] Small curds. Small curds. Uh I'm getting very small curds that are too small for even the finest of cheesecloth. The finest cheesecloth. Uh coffee filters work, especially super thick chemex filters, but this is a brutal process.
+
+[27:12] Uh, one of the things, as we all know, that Nastasia Lopez will never do is filter liquor through coffee filters. Yeah. Never, never. You know what? She'd be like, no, I'm and she'd walk away.
+
+[27:24] That would be it. It's one of those things. Why? It's getting decided. It's detestable.
+
+[27:29] She's like, I'm done. You know how like uh no, I will I'll do liquor through coffee filters. I won't do grapefruit juice freeze-thaw through cheesecloth. Ever. Ever.
+
+[27:41] Yeah. She walk it's like it's like, you know, but I think it's the kind of thing like like like pooping in diapers where you say you're done with it, but you never know, you might go back to it later. What do you do with you? Good one. Uh what?
+
+[27:56] Well, you do it. I do what I have to, you know me. It's like it's like it's like if I'm in a situation where I have to do it, I'll be like, uh. But I'm getting better, Nastasia. I am now choosing things that don't require me to do the awful thing.
+
+[28:10] Like it used to be so eager to please that I would just choose the thing that I thought was absolutely the best and then figure out how to do it later, which often meant screwing us. But now I'm like, I'm gonna choose something that's really good, but that's also not gonna screw us. Getting older. You familiar with the gangrene album, Older Budweiser? Oh, it's good.
+
+[28:33] Yeah, good strong. But they uh they were famous for a uh computer just got it. Yeah, older Budweiser, yeah. They were famous for they did a cover of uh Voices Carrie. They did a hardcore cover of Voices Carry in the uh eighties that won some in very important Boston battle of the bands and it rocketed them to quote unquote fame in the comedy hardcore world.
+
+[28:56] They I think they for a minute they were past the dead milkman. It was like who's gonna be the comedy hardcore like, you know, group? Is it gonna be gangrene or is it gonna be dead milkman and it's back and forth? I like them both. Yeah.
+
+[29:09] Yeah. Uh milk punch. How the heck do we get on this? What were we talking about? Small curds.
+
+[29:15] Uh I'm getting very small curves. They're too small for even the finest cheesecloth coffee filters uh work, especially the thick chemex filters, but it's a brutal process. Would upping the acid increase the size of the curd, making it easier to clarify. Any other tips? Uh yeah, I don't think upping the acid.
+
+[29:29] In fact, I've had someone over like somehow they were able to rapidly acidify it and then like stop it from breaking. Here's what I would do in in in this order, depending on whether you need to do it right now, like today, or you can wait. So I did a little test this morning, and the problem with one of the problems with the your recipe is if your recipe has a lot of sugar in it, uh sugar tends to uh stabilize, as I said before, with milk syrups, it tends to stabilize and create very small, uh, very, very small curves. In fact, sometimes such that it doesn't even look like it's broken. So I would not put any sugar into your recipe or as little sugar as you can, you know, yeah, as little as you can until later on in the recipe after you've broken the milk.
+
+[30:10] That's one. Uh two, uh anything you can do to uh destabilize um the the proteins so that they go together in big clumps would help. So I did this. Four I did uh I didn't know what your I don't know what your recipe is, so I did uh 50% water, 50% milk, right? And then I added uh so I did uh uh ounce, ounce, ounce, ounce, and then in one I added another half ounce of water and some citric acid to break it, and another one I added a half a half ounce only of uh 30-proof uh I had some 30-proof old banana Houstino vodka right in.
+
+[30:45] But a small amount of alcohol just to help destabilize it a little bit and citric acid, and I got much bigger, fluffier curd and better yield out of the one that had even a small amount of alcohol. So if it doesn't need to be like alcohol like it doesn't need to be alcohol-free for kids, even a small dose of alcohol will help destabilize it if you need to do it right now. If you and also your technique, how you move the curd around can cause the curd to be bigger if you move it gently around and as I like to say, sweep the spoon around to let the curds get bigger and bigger as they as they pull casein in from outside, that's gonna help. Lastly, it's pretty much universally recognized that rennet does a better job of making big curds than acid. So if you can uh if you can go on the internet and buy rennet to do your curding instead of acid, it's microbial, so you don't need to worry about it being, you know, you're killing some baby animals for it.
+
+[31:37] Uh I mean, unless you want to, in which case you can get the baby animal one. If you need to have dead animal in your cocktail, you can do it. Um but the um anyway, so I would do it uh in that order. And that reminds me, last week we had a question about uh that's enough, right, styles on that? Yeah.
+
+[31:53] So uh last week we had a question about uh spices and freezing them, and I remembered like afterwards what I forgot to say. Another reason to freeze spices, we were talking the the questionnaire was worried about the questioner was worried about uh spoilage and all this other stuff and whether or not the freeze style would be a problem and moisture and blah blah blah. Here's a good reason to freeze spices. A lot of spices are infested with the eggs of uh insects like weevils and other nasty little things. This is especially true on like the more artisanal your product is, the more likely it is it's infested with some sort of crazy uh thing.
+
+[32:30] Uh even like uh flowers that you get, if you get like small run flowers from our artisanal places that don't have like, you know, don't have like E. coli spraying quality controls kind of situations in it. Um they can have infestations in them. And if you're worried about long-term storage or something that might have insect eggs in it, freeze. The I always get my spices at dual, the the like Indian shop.
+
+[32:56] You ever had any you ever had any hatching? No, they have dates on all of them, which is great. Date the date, not the fruit. You know what though? Uh people make those freaking dates up.
+
+[33:05] You think so? Oh, I know so. No, okay. I have seen it happen. But like the uh like the but no, but it's good to know it's you know what, you know what a date's good for?
+
+[33:12] It's good for you as a consumer to know how long you've had it anyway. Right. But I'm not gonna say where I bought it, it. It wasn't dual specialty, but there is a particular brand of flour that I still to this day buy because I really like it. Uh uh Indian um uh like it's it's whole, it's mostly whole grain, but it's really soft and it doesn't puncture like whole wheat does, so it's really good uh adjunct to like biscuits if you want to give it a little bit of weediness.
+
+[33:44] Like I really like it. Biscuits. Biscuits. Everyone likes them, but Nastasia. I had something else on your harpy on the yeah, no, don't get me started.
+
+[33:51] Please. You didn't know this? What? Peter, you did not know this? Well, I mean, I I would have guessed.
+
+[33:57] You would have guessed? Why? Because they're delicious? Because everybody loves biscuits and they're delicious. That's why they invented butter.
+
+[34:08] That's a category? That's why they invented butter, Nastasia. They have two, they have two solutions to your problem. I'll name two. Butter, jelly.
+
+[34:16] I'll name some more. Honey, molasses, good molasses. Not that bull crap that we get normally in the supermarket. But the um got a question for Jack in the chat room. Nice.
+
+[34:24] What's the question? Jack, what is your favorite meal? Um first thing that came to mind was like Cachoe Pepe done right. Yeah. Nastasia, why don't you give us your thoughts on that on that?
+
+[34:36] I know you have serious thoughts. No, you're the one. When it's like done right, it like has to be like I I agree with Stas on this, like it's gotta be al dente and like. When you say al dente, do you like it like Nastasia? Like hard as hard as no, like a little bit more than al dente.
+
+[34:49] So Nastasi, you're saying you don't like it hard? I do like it hard. Ah, made her good. Made her safe. Wow.
+
+[34:55] Yeah. But no, but Nastasia likes it hard to the point of like small core on the inside. Oh, like the they're still white in the middle and you're still tiny, but yeah, I kind of get down with that. Yeah. Yeah?
+
+[35:06] I like bookettini. Oh, the everybody. I like hooketia. Yeah, that shit. I mean, that's stuff.
+
+[35:11] Oh, believe me out. Oh, whoa. Whoa, family joe. I'm too used to Leahy being on it. I think that's a weird word.
+
+[35:19] It doesn't sound like it reminds me, like, I think there's a dude making it. I think that I think it's like a dude named Pepe that's making it. Oh, Pepe's making. Like that's why like it's somehow like, I don't know. I don't I can't, you know, I don't know any, I don't know any actual Italian like uh like nostasia here.
+
+[35:34] So anyway, we have a question about uh should I talk about the rice? Or do you want to talk more about that? You want to talk more about you we had a question of the crab. Is that enough? You want to talk about it?
+
+[35:41] Is that enough? Yeah, I think that's enough. You make that for yourself? Yeah, I don't do that bad that great of a job though. Why?
+
+[35:47] How can you up your game? How can I up my game? It's uh the finishing step there, you know. It's just the consistency's never like perfectly uh do you like using pasta water? Yeah, of course.
+
+[35:57] You have to. No, I actually tried it out. Kenji has a weird technique where he kind of uh cooks the pasta dry in a in like a pan like a like a saucepan, like risotto style? Yeah, exactly. Porquet.
+
+[36:10] Why? I don't know. I tried it. I know a bunch of people that have talked about uh pre-frying their pasta. I never really bought I never bought it.
+
+[36:18] I never done it. I did it once and did it again. No? It's called like pasotto or something. Really?
+
+[36:24] I heard somebody say that, yeah. Pasote, why would they call it that? Well, it's when you use the liquid that the pasta's cooking in as a sauce. Oh no, he's talking about pre-frying the pasta like a risotto. Yeah.
+
+[36:35] Peter's zoned out for a minute. Yeah. Oh, sleeping. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hello, Dave.
+
+[36:43] Uh longtime listener, first time caller. Nice. You made it under the wire. You still have Jack here. Yeah, nice.
+
+[36:50] What's up? Um, I know that's against the rules, but one is actually for a different show altogether called Issues. Oh. Oh, wow. Wow.
+
+[36:57] Let's start with that one. Longtime listener. Yeah, so my first question is for Jack, and it's in regards to uh Darcy's show Chef's Talk. Chef's story, yeah. And then that is going to fold into my second question for cooking issues.
+
+[37:12] Alright. You know, Dorothy has a lot going on. Uh she's a very busy woman. She's she's she's awesome. She's awesome.
+
+[37:31] But I do laugh every time I get called Jack Innes on that show. Is that a thing? Is Jack Innis like a person? Is there a innus somewhere? No.
+
+[37:39] Is it like a baseball player or something? She's called she calls Erin Aaron Fairchild sometimes instead of Fairbanks. I think she just you know mixes up the names a little bit. Yeah. I I'm glad you noticed that though.
+
+[37:49] Thanks. Yeah, I just figured you'd fix it in post-production, but that's cool. Oh no, you should do it the way I do it for everything. Just put a totally different voice in. Right.
+
+[37:56] And thanks to Jack Insley. Yeah, yeah. Or just the Inslee part. Right, yeah, yeah. Insley.
+
+[38:03] My uh my ringtone for Peter, I gotta play that if I have time, I'll play that. I'll play my Peter ringtone. And I'll get I'll get Peter's ringtone up here. Alright, sounds good. So I was listening to an episode where Steve Jenkins was being interviewed and basically called out the olive oil industry and cold press not being a real thing.
+
+[38:25] And I started to look into like raw juice and juice bars, and I've always been a fan of the champion juicer and wanted to see what the fundamental differences were. And everyone that I see who puts out a cold pressed juice machine gets you to get a food processor where you blend the ingredients first and then cold press that. Yeah. You mean like Norwalk? Uh I don't know.
+
+[38:44] Here, listen to this first. No child wants to play with a heater in the box. No child wants to play with a Peter in the box? Yeah. That's uh whatever Peter calls me, that's what I that's what I get on my phone.
+
+[39:03] But the um before that it was the sound of me in pain from burning my hands on the puffing gun. No, which uh which which I'll also play for you. Yeah. Uh yeah. I don't uh I don't uh honestly have any experience with the cold press, and I'm sure you're talking about like uh Norwalks, uh you know, where it's basically just like a car jack with a bunch of stainless steel surrounding it, and it crushes it.
+
+[39:33] Um the people I know who have juice bars, like they love it because they say it's low temperature, but like like you say, if you have to put it through a whole bunch of blending operations first, there's the opportunity for heating it before it goes into the press. Paul, I bet you you've played with that crap. You play with that crap at all? That sounds like something you would play with. It sounds like something you would call into popular science.
+
+[39:52] Not yet. Brian Lamb of the Wire Cutter and the Sweet Home is a gadget guy and a cold juice guy. Brian, are you listening? I don't know. So you know, call or tweet in, give us the answer.
+
+[40:08] Uh I look I'm gonna I I can't come down one way or the other on uh on cold juicing. I'll tell you this: the champion juicer heats the hell out of the juice sometimes, especially like case three or four of apples, and you're not stopping and you're cranking through. I've had the champion heat the juice, I've had the champion boil water, I've melted the magnets, the uh protective magnets in the champion juicer from going to town on it. And partially that's why I love it so. But uh you know, uh the different juicers do have different qualities, and it's not just the temperature, it's the way the extraction works.
+
+[40:40] I tested the Breville versus uh the champion on apple juice this year, and the juice qualities were very different. Not better, not worse, different. So uh we got a caller who claims to have the answer to the juicing question. All right, here we go. Caller, you are on the air with the answer to the juicing question.
+
+[40:56] Hey David, it's Anton from Boga. Remember, I told you I used to run at Juice Bar. That is true. Before you before you saw the light and started eating meat and and you know, cooking fish and all this other stuff. Yeah.
+
+[41:06] And I now work in the cocktail bar as well. It's just full circle. But yeah, there's really almost no difference at all. Having worked with both, doing it at the taste-wise is minimal. Uh if anything, the the uh traditional juicers that are on cold press actually last longer.
+
+[41:24] Really? From what I've used, yeah. Huh. Huh. Um, when you use traditional juicers though, are you using neutrafasters or are you using champions?
+
+[41:32] Champions. Champions. Because the neutrafaster is so fat, literally fat, that I bet you it doesn't heat juice at all. It's such a monster. And did you have a neutral faster at your juice bar?
+
+[41:43] No, we use uh um it's called the good nature, which is basically a soup version of the door walks, essentially. Okay. Same principle, but just bigger. Even more expensive. Yeah, about ten times more expensive.
+
+[41:59] And you and you were like, this is Hokum. Pardon? You were like, This is horse hockey, this is BS. Just it makes no difference. Oh, totally.
+
+[42:06] So much so. I mean, yeah. I uh the cold juicing is the biggest sham I could ever. Wow. Nice.
+
+[42:14] If your concern is enzymes acting on the juice, as long as it's not warm for very long. I don't think we're gonna run into too much trouble. I was talking in regards to the whole cold juice, like in raw thing altogether. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:31] Well, I don't know. It's good to know. I mean, I have no experience. So, you know, I'll uh I'm gonna put I like that you threw that out there over the bow. Maybe I hope we get other people and be like, man, someone let me tell you something about cold pressed juice though.
+
+[42:43] Looks fantastic on a menu. That stuff sells. You put cold pressed juice on a menu, and people were like, cold press. Yep. I think it sounds like I should care, right?
+
+[42:54] Doesn't it sound like I should care? Yes. We've we didn't heat the juice and destroy all of its vital nutrients. Dave, it's like our idea for calling milk boob juice. Yeah, so Peter had this idea yesterday to have a milk brand called boob juice.
+
+[43:07] Line crosser. And uh Peter, obviously habitual line crosser, as we've known, takes it just to the edge of the family show and then crosses over it. But the reason why we were talking about Hagen Daws, we're like, I got in an argument with Peter because um, you know, I I hate any any labeling on any food of any type claiming health of any sort at all. I just don't like it at all. I don't think I hate it when people say the XYZ piece of garbage is healthy because you know, just you know, I hate it.
+
+[43:39] It's like it's like just uh whatever, leave it off. And so we were saying that ice cream should get the healthy label, but the ingredients should be boob juice, vegetable juice, rare orchid seeds. Yeah, wow. Cold pressed. Cold pressed.
+
+[43:55] Very cold pressed. Well, no, but you have to heat the vanilla to get it to ferment right. So it's like cold pressed boob juice. Cold pressed boob juice. Yeah.
+
+[43:59] Cold pressed boob juice, vegetable juice. Which is, you know, sugar, cocaine, and and rare rare tropical orchid. For your health. Vanilla. Yeah.
+
+[44:12] Health. Health. Steve Perole reference? Health that was. Nice.
+
+[44:16] Health. That's for Philly style. Do you have an alternate label for eggs? Like, that's Philly. That would be a Philly style.
+
+[44:23] That's old style Briars. It's boob juice, vegetable juice, and uh, and tropical orchid. Yeah. Chicken seeds. Huge.
+
+[44:35] Chicken seeds. Like, that's like someone who thinks of a chicken as a plant is like that's like just some like weird. That's weird up in this. Look at Nastasia has a different face than normal. It's kind of a freaked out face, a little bit of a freaked out face.
+
+[44:57] Nice. Alright. Um chicken seeds. Okay. Uh Shira.
+
+[45:01] Uh well, you know what? Any of you guys experts on Japanese rice? Peter. Beater. Oh, yeah.
+
+[45:07] Yeah, of course. Look to me. Oh. Nastasia really showing her true colors here. She thought I was Chinese for the record.
+
+[45:17] She did not think you were Chinese. She did not think. Up until Chinese. For years. We knew each other for years.
+
+[45:24] Last year we clarified that I'm not Chinese. What do you mean last year? I've known like every the day I've known you, I know you're Korean. Yeah. Yeah, you.
+
+[45:33] But it's it's Das's brain. I was Chinese up until last year. That is not the case, man. Well, I know that. She's not disputing it.
+
+[45:44] She's got her shut shut up face on right now. Alright, so the uh you know what I'll do the Japanese rice thing next next next week, because it gets too long and involved Japanese rice. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. Uh Shy writes in. Hello, uh, cooking issues team, thanks for answering my previous questions.
+
+[45:59] Um you spoke before about making tofu from peanuts. Uh I've wondered if you've tried using other pulses. I think I have, but I can't remember. It's been a long time since I've made non-traditional tofu. Uh Modernist Cuisine's done a lot of work on non-traditional tofus.
+
+[46:13] You can you can go look up their stuff. And the peanuts, I didn't have super great success with them because it was it didn't clot as well. I mean, other people have had good success. I looked it up on the internets today. And I know the modernist cuisine folks uh did a lot.
+
+[46:24] Anyway, whatever. I made tempeh from peanuts. I was earlier this year. It was a successful tempeh, but it was disgusting tasting. It's successful texturally, but successful texturally, it the mold grew correctly.
+
+[46:39] Yeah. Looked good. Yeah. Smelled bad, tasted bad. Not like toxic bad.
+
+[46:45] If you think it smells bad, Paul's remember, that was Paul Adams. The man who brought an open uh can of Surstromming in a taxi home with him and didn't think it was a problem. So if Paul thought it smelled bad, it stank up. It stank. It stank.
+
+[47:00] I previously made a ginkgo tempeh. Oh my god. What? Ginkgo nuts are the worst, most foul smelling things. You have to wash the bejesus out of them before they're even usable.
+
+[47:11] I did that. Oh, alright. Half ginkgo nuts, half dried soybeans, delicious tempeh. You know what people used to write? You ever read old like horticultural books?
+
+[47:20] I haven't. No. I mean, does I say write, I meant read. The uh the in ginkgo, they're like, people only plant the female ginkgos because I mean, sorry, the male ginkgos because the the nuts stinks so bad. I was thinking nuts, male, but no, they're on the female tree.
+
+[47:34] But the point is is that that's not the case. Right outside the Mofad's office, there used to be a ginkgo nut that uh ginkgo tree that would drop its stinky nuts all over the tree, all over the sidewalk. You used to step on the stinky nuts. What are you talking about? Stas, you don't remember the stinky ginkgo nuts.
+
+[47:48] Uh red ones? They're no, they're like this, and they're on the ground, and you step on your like, oh, what smells like vomit. Our old office. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:56] Of course. There were stinky nuts all over there. Stinky nuts. We're getting the high sign over there. Oh man.
+
+[48:01] All right. Well, listen, I'll answer I'll answer uh Shy's question uh about Burmese tofu from Chickpeas next week. Hopefully I can get Francis Lamb. You couldn't talk about it this uh week because whatever. Hey, listen, all love and thanks to my man Jack Insley for all the years of cooking issues and being a part of the show, being a part of the team, being our friend.
+
+[48:24] My favorite part. Cheers, Paul, not you, dude. Uh I'll come make cameos. I'll come prank you from all different places. And we'll be back next week with more cooking issues, but it won't be the same.
+
+[48:35] Oh, bye guys. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[49:06] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition Food Studies and Public Health at New York University and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member-based nonprofit radio station operating out of Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed.
+
+[0:23] The interviewers are always really well prepared and fun to talk to about the issues that matter to me the most about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage Radio Network by becoming a member today. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org and click on the beating heart to donate.
+
+[0:59] Today's program was brought to you by Itoen, the leading green tea company and makers of Oyocha, Japan's number one selling green tea. For more information, visit Itoen.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:30] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brokban. Not joined as usual with Nastassi of the Hammer Lopez. She is on her way. Uh for those of you who are devotees of the L train, you can go to Is the L Train F'd, but you have to spell out the curse word.
+
+[1:48] But my son's here and it's a family show.com. Notice that the L train is in fact shafted right now. Nastassi will be notice uh joining us shortly. Additionally, sad to say, last week was Jack, Jackie Molecule Inslee's last week here in the booth. And so we don't have Jack uh this week either.
+
+[1:59] David's uh taking over his duties in the booth. Hi, David. He's not there. He is there. Hey, how's it going?
+
+[2:11] Hey, all right. Gotta keep on your toes, man. I'm gonna I'm gonna sit there and pester you. You never know when I'm gonna pester you. Yeah.
+
+[2:17] Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, we have uh we have two special guests, our scheduled special guest and our non-special uh schedule. What should we do first? We'll do my non-schedule first.
+
+[2:25] Oh, here's Nastasi coming in. We have uh my son Dax Arnold. All right so for any of your yeah, for any of your 11-year-old questions, you can call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128. But the actual guest of honor today, hey Nastasia, the actual guest of honor today is Meathead Goldwyn, who uh wrote a new book.
+
+[2:46] Uh it's it's an eponymous book. It's called Meathead. Uh, and it was hold on a second I have to move away for Nastasia to pass me. It was uh the last time I checked like the number two cookbook on Amazon, which is like an amazing achievement. It is, I'm out of my mind with happiness.
+
+[3:02] That's it's great. And so uh, and the uh I always forget, even though like I actually have one too. What's the thing that they after the colon on a title? What do they call that? Semicolon?
+
+[3:10] No, no, I mean you know what I'm saying, like the the spiel after. Oh, you know, I subtitle. Okay, subtitle. The subtitle of the of the book is The Science of Great Barbecue and Grilling. Separate, of course.
+
+[3:22] Subjects. Yeah. That was supposed to be the title originally, but the marketing guy said, Well, let's name it after you, Meathead. And then we have this really beautiful picture of a rib to go on the cover, and they said, No, let's put your ugly face on the cover. So you you owe them a bottle of champagne.
+
+[3:38] Yeah, because you know, you know, that's the thing, it's like uh you got two things in a book I've noticed. You got the actual content needs to be really good. And two, people need to want to buy it and pick it up at the first after a while you get word of mouth, and then you you could have this could come in a brown paper wrapper after a while. But uh, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's like uh my editor, uh Maria Guarn Shelley also edited uh Jim Leahy, the breadbaker's book.
+
+[4:02] Yeah. Yeah. And she uh she wrote uh as the subtitle on his first book that he came out with. No like the for the bread, no need, and she added afterwards, no work. No work.
+
+[4:14] Books sold more than any other bread book. Like of course. Of course. That's why Maria's a genius. Yes.
+
+[4:19] Stuff like this. So call in all of your grilling related questions and or barbecue-related questions. Now we're talking this can be I'm gonna I I I read uh read the book. I'm gonna uh we're gonna pester each other on some of the myths and whatnot. Is uh Professor Blonder gonna call in or no?
+
+[4:34] Do we have him? Or no? Well, yeah, I'd like I'd like to get him. I've I've respected his work for a long time. I think his uh what's his blog is called what original ideas?
+
+[4:41] Uh genuine ideas. Genuine ideas. Great blog. Like uh he did the first uh work I saw on um salt penetration where he actually used a uh like a chemical reaction to show the actual salt penetration because you know uh the problem with I had tried for a long time um a dye work, which you have in in in the book and you and you know it that you did with him. Uh the interesting thing about dye, obviously, is dye is a much larger molecule than salt.
+
+[5:06] So if you're trying to check salt penetration, you need to actually reveal the salt in it. His work is just great, I think. He's really brilliant. Uh he stumbled into my website and asked me some questions, and I started asking him questions, and we just struck off a relationship, and he has taught me so much. His name is on the cover under mine.
+
+[5:25] It's my book, but uh I couldn't have done it without him. Uh he's tremendous. So why don't we before we get into it, right? So the why don't you your website? Amazing ribs.com.
+
+[5:29] Amazing ribs. And you can, and there's a there's a club, right? There's a the website has like a thousand free pages, but there is a Pitmaster Club, which is a pay per member part of the site, which is uh community, and it's a lot of fun. And the book has 90 days free membership in the Pitmaster Club. Alright, so here's what you get when you get uh when you when you get the book.
+
+[5:59] You get uh a very interesting and good uh you know representation of uh the various science and practical aspects, frankly, of first um what's going on uh with it it's basically the beginning's broken into three parts, right? The first one is a heat, fundamentally uh and uh producing it. The second is uh meat and kind of how that works, and the third is equipment, and then it goes into recipe say it's pretty accurate. Yeah. So you get you get and the interesting thing about this is the the combo of you and Professor uh Blonder, you're adding uh like a super kind of interesting scientific take, not like boring science, but like practical, like with experiments, by the way, uh added to kind of also years of experience and observation, which is kind of an unbeatable combo in a book like this.
+
+[6:47] They give you the insight that will help you think through cooking different foods, different thicknesses, different styles, and so you can improvise, you can make it your own. Okay, so now we're gonna go through some of the some of the stuff. So that one of the one of the things in the book is that there's a a series of uh sidebars that are like myth busted. It's one of the things myth busted. Not mythbusters, just myth uh busted.
+
+[7:11] Let me get the copy of it here. How much does this book cost on Amazon? Retail. Uh well it lists for 35 and Amazon's discounting it to around 21, I think. Yeah, bargain.
+
+[7:19] You know what the good news is? Is this your first book? Yeah, well, first barbecue book, yeah. I did a bunch of books on beverage. Yeah, because you know, your royalties are based on the on the retail, not on the what you sell it for.
+
+[7:29] Yes. Yeah, say so, you know. Yeah. I think the best is to have a book that costs a hundred bucks and sells for ten. I'm not worried about it.
+
+[7:35] Yeah, nice. Well, especially not that you're you know, number two book selling on Amazon. It's awesome. So, uh a couple things I think are interesting uh that I've never run the tests on. You want to talk about briquette versus lump on charcoal?
+
+[7:44] Oh boy, you picked a good one to start with. That's uh I am I uh you know there's this cult about using lump charcoal, which looks like real wood because it's made from burning chunks of wood in a low atmosphere, low oxygen atmosphere, so that it carbonizes and becomes char or pure carbon, which burns really w efficiently in a grill. Um and a lot of people think it's more natural. And we're in an area where natural food and organic food really appeals to the consumer. So it appeals to that audience strongly.
+
+[8:20] But when you do that, you end up with chunks of wood of different size, different thickness, they burn unevenly. And if they're not charred all the way through, they can smoke it excessively, and you don't know what the wood is that's smoking. All kinds of woods are mixed up in there. And it's quite common to find lumber in a bag of lump charcoal. I have.
+
+[8:42] Yeah, uh and I've found plastic and metal and other things in there. I don't know why foreign objects get in there so often, but I'm not a huge fan of it. Um I want to control smoke. I want charcoal for heat and heat only. And if you use briquettes, which are made from sawdust, the clumb together with some binders.
+
+[9:04] And some people object to the use of the binders, but they're pretty natural products, whatever that means. I mean, arsenic is natural. Um they use cornstarch as a binder, but you have a uniform size, a uniform weight, a uniform quantum of heat per briquette. Um, a Weber uh chimney contains 80 of those briquettes. So you have exact heat and temperature control with the briquettes, and everything that I'm about, everything I'm curious about, everything we want to do on the grill is control.
+
+[9:40] Control heat, control fire, control smoke. I have more control with briquettes, and I recommend people use them. It's constant all year round. You have uh one variable fewer to deal with. I I tell you what, for years I've just kind of out of habit gotten the uh lump, and I was convinced I don't even need to run my own test.
+
+[10:02] I was convinced by reading it, I'm gonna go briquette. Now, just so everyone, everyone who listens to this show already knows you do not mean the one that's impregnated with with garbage. No, no, yeah. And they actually do, they use like a mineral spirits. The the the self-starting briquettes have mineral spirits or a petroleum product in the briquette, and they do give an off smell and flavor.
+
+[10:22] You can smell it a block away. You start charcoal, the best way is with a chimney, and it looks like a big coffee can and it's got a false bottom, and you put newspaper under there or a wad of paraffin under there, and it takes about 15 minutes, and you wait for the charcoal to be completely ashed over. When it's completely ashed over, it's burning really hot and emitting very little smoke. And I know people think charcoal is for smoke, but wood is for smoke. Charcoal is for flavor.
+
+[10:44] Yeah. What do you think about this? The because one of the things, you know, when you especially when you're exposed to uh like in the culinary world and the cooking school where in particular, a lot of Japanese chefs come over and they make a big, big deal, and it's a different purpose. So they're dealing with uh Binchotan. Yeah, they're dealing with their very high grade, extraordinarily expensive bingotan.
+
+[11:08] And for them, yeah, they're they're doing a a much different technique. First of all, they're burning like a couple of sticks at a time. They need a c super clear fire, typically indoors. No one's dumping bing chaton into a Weber. I mean, if they are they're freaking banana ranch.
+
+[11:24] Well, they're really they're really expensive, too. But binsoton is made by almost a ritualistic process. And uh the the they're almost uniform in thickness, and if you clink them together, they sound like wind chimes. I mean, but they're carbonized perfectly. Yeah, they're beautiful.
+
+[11:42] They give up very little smoke, a lot of heat. They solve a lot of the problems that I see in American lump charcoal. Yeah, but do you think they're like if they were the same price as briquettes, would you still go for briquettes? That's the question. In other words, is it a load of malarkey or not?
+
+[11:59] You know, Bencheton, I think if it was the same price as briquettes, I might. Um because it doesn't have binders and other things in it. Right. And the binders do create more ash. That's the one disadvantage of briquettes.
+
+[12:10] You get more ash out of them. And you I'm very it's it I I'm I can count on zero hands the number of times that ash has been a problem during a single cook. It just makes it harder to work out after the case. It's a problem for people with big green eggs. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's a good idea.
+
+[12:23] Tell me why I should use it. I'm not a big fan. I'm not a big fan either. Um the core concept that people need to learn when they're grilling outdoors is to set the grill up in two zones a hot side and a not hot side. And you've got infrared radiant heat directly below the food on the hot side, and the indirect side or the not hot side is warmed by circulating convection air.
+
+[12:50] And you can move the food back and forth as you need to, and you're controlling heat. You're controlling the type of um uh f of uh energy striking the meat. And in a Kamado that's round, like the big green egg. Yeah, Kamado is a is the generic name for what the big green egg is for those of you that don't eat. It's uh i i i i i it's an old Japanese design, but it's a like an urn and it's an egg shape, and the charcoal is confined in a small round area.
+
+[13:18] So it's very hard to divide it into heat zones. So it makes a great oven. I mean, good pizza oven. Although no, you know, the thing, my problem with pizza, it's good for like one or two, but like at the temperatures that I normally cook my pizza, it was very difficult for me to reload it and keep it going. So if you're making a couple pizzas for your family, fantastic.
+
+[13:37] For a party that you're running for a couple of hours? No. No. I mean, it seems to me that the big green egg was only able to sustain an even heat for a long time at lower temperatures. Well, the other thing is is the egg's been around for about 15 years or more, and it really hasn't changed its design significantly.
+
+[13:53] Whereas its competitors, there's a competitor that's built in Atlanta called Primo, and it's oval shaped. So with the oval shape, you can set up in two zones. Um I like that better. Yeah. Um so they need to do some innovation and yeah, just to get uh on the table right now, I do almost the exact opposite style of cooking.
+
+[14:12] Uh like so uh I come from a kind of low temperature sous vide background. So I do almost entirely all my stuff is already cooked before I go to the to a grill, and I'm using the grill mainly for finish. So I'm uh I'm high fast and multiple in and outs. Let me tell you about what I call redneck sous vide. Redneck Sous vide is when you've got that grill divided in half, a hot side and a not so hot side.
+
+[14:44] I shoot for about 200, 225 on the indirect heat side. It's warming just by convection air. And it's like sous vide. You start a big thick steak on the indirect side and gently warm it, just like you would in a sous vide system. And once it gets up close to finished temperature, say you want medium rare steak, 130 to 135.
+
+[15:06] You'll take it up to about 120 on the indirect side. Then you lift the lid, move it over the hot side, right over that pounding infrared energy, and put it just on the underside and flip frequently. Flip, flip, flip, flip, flip so you don't get bars of flavor, re um grill marks, you get even all over brown, and you've got a great sear, and when it's on the indirect side, it can be picking up smoke flavor, which is an advantage it has over real sous vide. And I've done side by side tasting. There are I think they're different products anyway.
+
+[15:41] Well, when you I've I've taken identical steaks and done one in sous vide. I mean, I think that the end result is just I don't think they should be con I think they're just different. I think they're different. Well, they are. Um when you do as I did side-by-side comparison, the Sous- vide product is uh uh significantly moister and more tender.
+
+[15:59] But the redneck sous-vide, if you will, the reverse sear technique gets more flavor from the grill and the smoke. Sure. I mean, the issue with there are a lot of interventions you can do is to it's not about CV, let's not get into it. There are a lot of interventions you can do. So, for instance, like uh I find most people when they do sous vide, they only sear on one side or the other.
+
+[16:19] You get much better flavor development when you sear both before and after. Absolutely and when you put certain things in the bag. A lot depends. A lot of times people will pre-salt with a sous-vide, and if you pre-salt with a sous-vid, the meat ends up tasting cured because the salt penetration is very high, and you get a firming effect. A lot depends on the temperature, what temperature it is when you put it on the grill afterwards, after this, there's like so many variables, it's hard to like run.
+
+[16:42] I just think that they're I think that what we can agree on is that the uh the best way to cook any piece of meat like that, especially is a low average heat input with a very high uh instantaneous uh point either continuously as a rotisserie works where it's like intermittent, but like often or which I think is fantastic cooking technique, or by super high energy uh at the at the end. I always think, as you do in the book, um you agree with me, I think basically uh wholeheartedly on this that uh you know if you're gonna put a sear at the beginning, fine, but it needs to be at the end because otherwise the crust development's not there. Right. Right. And the other thing is is if you put pound energy into the surface of meat at the start, let's take uh uh a steak for example, what happens is you know, people don't realize it's the the hot air doesn't cook all the meat.
+
+[17:31] The hot air only cooks the outside of the meat. Once the outside of the meat starts building and storing energy like a capacitor, it's the outside of the meat that cooks the inside of the meat. So if you start by searing at the beginning on a grill, you're gonna pound energy into the surface, you're gonna get a great dark surface. And then just below the surface, you're gonna get a layer of brown. Then you're gonna get a layer of tan, then you're gonna get a layer of pink, and then you're finally in the center, gonna get a half inch or so of perfect medium rare.
+
+[18:02] Whereas if you start slow in either a sous- vide machine or reverse sear, you can get at the color really even top to bottom. Color is also related to temperature, and you get perfectly cooked. So the ru what most of us backyard weekend warriors, we cook way too hot. You're on it, cook slow, cook low, cook gentle. Right.
+
+[18:24] You know what's interesting about crust development as well, and this goes back to your flipping thing. Let's just say this also. I hate it for different reasons. Uh, you know, we call it quadriage marks where they actually do the two grill. I detest it.
+
+[18:36] I've always detested it. I just think it's I don't think it even looks good. I think it looks I think it looks horrible. We're we're Pavlovian trained to salivate when we see grill marks. When I see grill marks, I don't salivate, I see unfulfilled potential.
+
+[18:49] I see a child that had great smarts and never got to college. I see gr tan surface. I want to see brown surface. I want to see it dark all over. And when you flip, flip, flip every minute or two, you can get that all over even tan.
+
+[19:07] Another interesting or all of you and brown, I'm sorry. We've got Greg on the line. Oh. Hey, Professor Blonde, uh, thanks for uh calling in. Hey guys, it's been fascinating.
+
+[19:15] Listen to this uh give and take on Sous V versus Redneck. Oh, yeah. Well, we'll let's we're gonna get into it in uh in a minute. Just one more interesting thing about uh I don't know whether you've done any experiments on, so feel free to chime in at any time. But uh I I work a lot with extreme high intensity, just like to kind of push the searing to the fastest possible.
+
+[19:32] What I've noticed is, frankly, that there's a certain minimum time for crust development and that you cannot develop a crust uh faster than a certain rate because the quality is. Absolutely correct. It takes about a minute on your average steak to get a crust. So flipping faster than that reduces the quality of the bark. And uh flipping too slow, you're gonna get gray.
+
+[19:54] So I I like to flip about a minute, minute and a half, and when I cook sous vide, I actually like to um pat, even slightly squeeze both sides into a paper towel so I can pull a little bit of that moisture out and make sure I get a a quick sear and rather than steaming. Right to get away. I don't know if you do that. Yeah, no, I always I o like so like when you when a lot of time I'm working and I'm I'm pulling out of a bag and I like to pull out of the bag a little bit in advance. I throw them on towels typically.
+
+[20:20] Uh and I think you say you're against it somewhere, Pam for cooking, but I I use Pam a lot when I'm grilling to get a quick surface sheen of oil on top of something when I'm going into the Tandoor phase. No, I don't think I've mentioned Pam or any kind of oiling. In fact, I will often oil the meat slightly before the sear phase. Um but uh I I don't know that makes a huge difference. Greg, you've talked to me about that.
+
+[20:43] What is what are your thoughts about that? The only problem with Pam is if you get it hot, it does a good job. But if there's tam on the sides of the meat, it gets kind of a little bit of a waxy mouthfeel, which I don't like. Like a polymerized oils. You mean it like that's the only re that's the only reason.
+
+[20:58] Otherwise, if you if you can actually get it hot, it's fine. But if it if it's between hot and cool, it gets a little waxy. Yeah, because I find like when I'm going uh I know you're anti-skewer, but tando's it's like sometimes it's the only thing you can do. Like when I'm going in and out of a tandoor, like spraying is the only way, and if you're doing a lot of it, even with steaks, it's the only way I can guarantee I'm gonna get uh an even coat of oil on it. Really just I'm a big fan of spraying.
+
+[21:20] I usually don't spray Pam, I usually spray different cooking oil. But I'm actually you can buy spray containers that you can fill with cooking oil. I've clogged and or melted like a bunch of them. I hear there's a trick to getting them to not break on me, but like I haven't figured it out yet. So uh you know you know the m you're talking about the mistos?
+
+[21:38] I've gone through so many. No, I've actually had similar problems. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. But you got a solution to those? Yeah.
+
+[21:46] Professor, you got anything to not have those things break on me? Yeah, well, I'll tell I I mean I hate to say this, but I actually use an all-metal airbrush. Oh, nice. Like pre-pression. And I I completely agree with you.
+
+[21:59] Most of those have plastic parts, and if you get them too close to the grill, they they're toast. That is so you can't. But the met the airbrushes are all metal, at least if you buy the right ones and and they're great. All right, so let's let's get right to some, unless we have caller calling with question, let's get right to some uh myths. We do have a caller on this.
+
+[22:15] Okay, caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, I just wanted to um I heard you talking about that blueberry drink you were working on a couple of weeks ago. Ooh, do you remember what it was? It was what, uh blueberry gin, Houstino um kind of bark uh uh carbonated drink. Oh man, yeah, I don't remember.
+
+[22:32] Do you have a what what's the question though, real quick? I was just uh curious if you're using um like dried blueberries or fresh blueberries for the drink, and if it's just kind of like a typical like carbonated drink. If I made it a couple of weeks ago, I was testing with frozen blueberries because the real ones weren't uh I don't have real ones yet. Um so I was testing with with frozen. And um, you know, uh when you're blending a fruit, it I think the frozen stuff is fine really uh, especially if you go direct from frozen into the liquor.
+
+[23:04] So, like certain fruits, you'll get interesting enzymatic action when you freeze thaw because you've ruptured a lot of the cells during the freezing process and the flavor changes quite considerably. Apples would be the one that's very clearly like that. But um blueberries, uh you're not gonna get much different. So I would you could test with frozen. It's nicer to use fresh ones when they're in um when they're in season, but I can't recall the recipe.
+
+[23:24] I've been using shad uh berries recently because they're in right now. Blueberries will be in soon too. Yeah, you know what's in right now? Go outside. For those of you right now, go outside, find the closest linden tree, aka basswood.
+
+[23:35] Linden blossoms are in now, and you can nitromuddle or blend uh linen blossom drink. I suggest linden blossoms, uh two ounces uh Plymouth, half ounce lemon, half ounce uh simple some salt. You won't regret it. Okay, perfect. Thanks so much.
+
+[23:51] All right, thank you. All right, back to uh myths on uh on so let's let's let's tackle some of the oldest and strongest, the ones that we're gonna argue about here, all right? Resting. So uh boy for those of you that have the book, it's on uh what is it, page uh seven here. Let me start, and Greg, you can jump in.
+
+[24:08] Um this is not settled science. And in fact, I've been talking to the people at Texas AM about hiring a grad student to do some research on this. The general theory is that when you take meat out of a hot fire, if you let it sit for five, ten, fifteen minutes, let it rest, that the juices will be redistributed and that they will flow more evenly throughout. Um I'm not sure that they have run away from the fire and been uh distributed improperly, and I've never seen evidence that they have. Greg did some really interesting tests with this.
+
+[24:44] Greg, why don't you tell them about what you've done and what you've learned. Well, I mean, first of all first of all, I mean, in most cases, let's say you're talking about a steak, unless you eat the whole thing in thirty or forty seconds, it's gonna rest on your plate. So the steak you eat at the beginning is gonna be different than the steak you eat in five minutes later versus uh fifteen minutes later. So almost all meats eaten partly rested. Um the the the uh juiciness difference is nearly zero.
+
+[25:12] I've done tests where I've sliced steaks immediately, gathered up all the juices, waited fifteen minutes, then sliced it up. There's no difference. The difference is where it ends up, whether it ends up inside the meat or it ends up in the plate, and then you kind of sop it up uh while you're eating. So the total amount of juice is no difference, rested or not rested. Uh I'm a big believer in not resting uh for a couple and actually even I like to slice my steak pretty early after it comes off the fire because I don't like the crust to Sog out and I worry about carryover when you're using a really hot fire.
+
+[25:44] Um so I'm I'm a fan of taking the meat off, slicing it. I like that charred aroma and that slightly hard crust, which I I rude if you wait too long. So I like to do it. But in terms of total juicy, there's no difference. And the important thing to remember is tenderness and juiciness are not the same thing.
+
+[26:03] And so the liquid that's in there, which comes out is just as good whether it's in the meat or it's out of the meat. So I'm not a big fan. There's one exception, and that is for things like uh brisket. And there is a huge advantage in waiting an hour after you pull it off the fire, wrap it up, put it into uh a flow cambro or something, and let it sit there. It will absorb the juices, and that has to do with the microstructure of the brisket and the way it cooks.
+
+[26:29] It actually acts like a bunch of soda straws, and it will pull the juices in, it'll continue to cook. And I do definitely believe you want to rest a big meat like a brisket, a steak. I'm on the opposite side. I I never rest it. Greg, I've been um differentiating the two steps by saying meats that you're cooking to medium rare or under 150 degrees, you don't need to rest.
+
+[26:53] You want to serve hot. Not only what you were saying, but I think a big part of the juiciness uh phenomenon is saliva. And when you put a sizzling hot steak on my plate, I start to salivate, I get juicy. Now, as far as the brisket, I refer to that as holding now, Greg, rather than resting. You're holding it just so people will overcome because a brisket is cooked to 200, 203 degrees.
+
+[27:18] Big difference from 130 degree steak. I think a lot of this also you're dealing with uh a problem of um dealing with a problem of terminology. So, you know, the the way that I look at it isn't that I've never believed in this redistribution garbage, what I call garbage. What do they mean redistribution? But what is true, and in fact, what uh Professor, your experiments show in the sidebar, if you read carefully towards the end, is uh meats tend to, as they're cooling back below about uh fifty-four, fifty-two Celsius, tend to uh have a radical shift in their water holding capacities.
+
+[27:57] And so what happens is you get reabsorption of juices that are next to meats as they cool down. Uh and as your experiment said, you you cut a 33-ounce roast and it bled, I think three ounces when it was cut hot, and two ounces when it, or two ounces when it was cut hot, and one, which is only one ounce, it is fifty percent, but it is only one ounce difference. 50 percent, but when you're dealing with a piece of meat, then it's 70 percent water. Right, but uh but then it reabsorbs it. So I think the key is you s and as you said, Professor, on the thing, is that it sops up the juices.
+
+[28:29] I've run multiple, might say multiple hundreds of uh tests where you take two pieces of meat and you either force chill them through their zone of uh of of like absorption. And this is something by the way that I thought was hogwash. This was uh talked to me by a guy named Bruno Gusseau, who's one of the you know, kind of granddaddies of low temperature sous-deed cooking, and he always used to say you want to ramp your cooling down slowly. When it's in the bag, we're not talking about seared, because he does cook, chill, and then retherm later. Yeah, I always thought cook was then you chill fast.
+
+[29:00] No, no, no, because it well, that's the thing. That's what I always said faster better, right? From a my from microbial standpoint. And he always said, no, you want to do a uh ramped chilling, and the reason is is that the meat will reabsorb more juices if the ramp goes down slowly. I thought he was full of garbage, and we just ran we ran the test like hundreds of times because we used to teach it in our in our low temp sous-deed cooking class.
+
+[29:20] And and about 70% of the people, about 70% of the time, people will choose uh the meat that has gone through a ramped cooling. And so then because that effect was true, I always assumed that his argument for it was true, which is that you get uh I never actually I don't think I've measured it, but you get more reabsorption of juices as it slows down, which is actually corroborated by the the sidebar you guys did in the book saying that the meat reabsorbs the juices. I don't think the meat needs to be non-sliced for it to reabsorb the juices, it just needs to be in proximity with the juices. Well, not only that. Absolutely correct.
+
+[29:56] And it's it's and it depends on the um the muscle group. Uh some muscle groups are more like sponges, and other muscle groups it there's not much you can do about it, and it's not going to absorb a tremendous amount. Uh by the way, I just want to get to that thing about uh rapid cooling. Um my belief, first of all, there's only so much you can do in terms of rapid cooling and ice baths and stuff. But I do believe that if you can get hot meat into a sous V bag and seal it, it's gonna it's gonna sterilize itself if it's hot when you put it in.
+
+[30:25] Yeah. Um and and uh and then you have a little bit of margin to play games with how quickly you cool it or not. So I'm I'm not as worried about the microbial issue if it's in a nice sanitary bag, like a sous V bag. It's super difficult to suck uh I mean you can't suck a good vacuum on hot, obviously. You know what no one's ever made?
+
+[30:43] No one's ever made like a pressure bagger where literally instead of sucking the air out of the bag, you increase the pressure around it. Well, actually, Greg just did some interesting re uh experiments on that. I've been doing experiments on pressure versus vacuum marinating and whether that works. Oh, I've done a lot of experiments on pressure marinating in bottles. I mean, it clearly works at higher pressures.
+
+[31:03] You don't agree? Uh well, so it's quite so high higher pressure you're talking about. 60, 70 PSI? Uh above a hundred, you're gonna begin to see uh difference. There's certain it's certainly true that in a um uh a vacuum marinator, the vacuum marinating I believe is absolutely bogus.
+
+[31:21] It does absolutely nothing in terms of driving things in or all the stories about pores and have you spoken have you spoken to the protein scientists on this? Because the professionals I've spoken to on it, I've never really played with it that much because I never cared to. I don't really care about it that much. But the um the uh what they say is that there is a win and I don't believe that I don't know that I believe this. This is like, you know how there's um there's built-up knowledge over time from professionals who do it?
+
+[31:44] They believe that there is a window of uh vacuum pressure that is good, and that uh a deeper vacuum than that is not advantageous, and a shallower vacuum than that is non-effective. Uh so as soon as you begin to hear that you're what you're hearing is a lot of f scuffing of feet, um trying to find some window where they can prove it works. Most of the studies I've seen in the food literature show that the vacuum marinat is ineffective, as in my own experiments, as is, I believe, the theory. Uh very high pressures, of course, as you know, high pressure uh pasteurization is extraordinarily uh effectatious in terms of what it does to molecules. The in-between levels, the hundred PSIs uh can make a difference.
+
+[32:27] Your average home pump is not going to get there. Right. Um so most of the stuff that and the most of the stuff that you purchase on the outside. So my belief is that the commercial ones that your average home users, it's ineffective. Just use a Ziploc bag, you're just as well off.
+
+[32:44] Um you can make a difference at the high levels. It only goes in so far given the time, so I I I think it works best with thin cuts. Also, nothing that helps a big thick cut. Like crustaceans, shrimp can obviously pick up a lot more because of the structure of their muscles. Right.
+
+[32:59] Right. I mean, that's an open circulatory system, and you can get there in minutes and with shrimp. I mean, vacuum grinding of shrimp is works. Yes. Yeah, but that's a completely different structure.
+
+[33:08] Yeah, open circulatory structure. And vegetables behave differently also. Oh, yeah. Fish behave differently. Vegetable, you know, the interesting thing about it, because I do you know a lot of work with uh vacuum infusion for garnish work and cocktails and in in things like this, you know, for years and years.
+
+[33:22] All of the mar none of the marination effect happens while you're sucking the vacuum. It's when the pressure comes back in and pushes the liquid into the evacuated pores. Right. And there has to have been pores which were in fact empty. If the pores had liquids in it, nothing pulls out.
+
+[33:37] But it's important to remember that meat does not have uh it's not like Swiss cheese. There's no there are no air pockets in there. It's a fully saturated uh sponge, if you will. Right. Oh, and to go back to juiciness, I think this is also something that's good that you're hitting on.
+
+[33:52] We're so preposterously obsessed with juiciness and the loss of juiciness. Things just have to be juicy enough for them to be well dry agent gets rid of juice. That's something that I've pointed out too in my argument on uh on this business. We dry age, and it it comes it it'll lose 15, 20 percent or so of its juiciness sometimes. Um but look at, you know, we hear don't poke a thermometer into the meat because it'll deflate like a lot of things.
+
+[34:20] Don't use tongs, don't you use tongs, not a fork to flip. Let's uh an eight-ounce filet mignon is six ounces of water. If you stick a thermometer in there, if you stick a fork in there, you might lose a teaspoon after numerous punctures. There's six ounces of water in there. You're not gonna miss it.
+
+[34:42] Plus the bound water is one important. There is this uh for me, there is this window where you don't want pure mild water because it's a little watery on your tongue. Right. Uh you want a little bit of fat. If you put too much water holding gels in, it feels a little bit slimy.
+
+[35:05] But there is a window where it has this wonderful, uncuous, meaty uh texture in your mouth due to the viscosity of the liquid. And that's that's what you have to hit. Uh uh otherwise you end up with uh you know industrial flavored meats which taste like they put gelatin on the inside. Now we're getting deep down into some technical stuff, but Greg, you used a word there that I want to define for the audience because it's an important word. Myo water.
+
+[35:32] You know, when we cut into a steak and these juices that we see come running out, people often call it blood. It's not blood. The blood has all been removed in the slaughtering process. Blood from a steer and a chicken and a hog is much like our blood. It's very dark red, it's almost black.
+
+[35:50] It's thick, and when it comes out into oxygen, it starts to coagulate. Those thin pink juices are called myo water because they're mostly water and they've gotten a little bit of a pink tinge from a protein called myoglobin. So I I want to caution all you people who say, uh, let's collect the uh the blood and pour it over the meat. Every time you call it blood, somewhere in Indiana a bell rings and a teenage girl becomes a vegan. Wow, dang.
+
+[36:19] Indiana, that's where they all are. Yeah, that's where they are. Dax, are you uh you're gonna become a vegan? Do you or do you like steak? I like steak a lot.
+
+[36:25] All right, there we go. How do you like your steak? Really red or I like a medium rare. Oh, because I'm talking to him like he's a twelve year old. He is.
+
+[36:34] Yeah. Do you know the difference between medium rare? So oh, well, I only I yeah, I mean I only ever I I do exactly fifty-five point uh two degrees all the time. Well, I'm uh I'm I'm a Fahrenheit guy, but uh it's 100 and what is that? It's 100 and well, medium rare is one thirty to 135.
+
+[36:50] It's in there. It's in that range. And we should have one thirty-five is fifty-seven, so that's a good one. We should also point out something again for people who are not that deep into the things as the three of us seem to be. The single most thing that you can do as a home cook to improve your grilling or your barbecue or your smoking or even your indoor cooking is go out and buy a $30 digital thermometer that'll give you an accurate reading within five seconds.
+
+[37:16] Medium rare steak is 130 to 135. Steak is too expensive to overcook. Stop bringing in the steak and saying, Oh, it kind of got away from me there. And more importantly, poultry needs to be cooked to 160, 165 to be safe. And we're not talking about holding it at 155 like you might in a sous videos.
+
+[37:37] Anything you cook longer than a couple of hours, as long as it's at a cooked temperature. The core the core is at that temperature. No, but we're not doing we're talking about grilling where we're not sous v eating. You want to take it up to 160 at least. Do you bother uh decontaminating it before?
+
+[38:22] I've always wash it, yeah, absolutely. Uh right, because anything you poke into meat becomes a hypodermic and it can push contaminants deep inside. Yeah, I mean, what I always tell people is like, you know, there's two different things. When you're dealing with we have a lot of like pretty hardcore people, listeners. So, you know, I th I make a big distinction between uh what you're willing to do for your family and then what you're doing if you're serving like you know, you don't know the people or they're immunocompromised or whatever.
+
+[38:46] There's like big differences. Like a lot of times if I'm gonna do stuff that's not safe 100%, then I have to be willing to eat it raw and serve it to my family raw. I don't I don't do it. But also just a note for all of you sous vide jockeys out there, uh don't take your incredibly expensive hypodermic thermocouple anywhere near the grill. They have a uh the the potting compound that they use inside of those hypodermic needles is sensitive to heat and will die if it overheats, and then your eighty dollar probe is in the garbage.
+
+[39:14] Well you can still stick it in the meat though, you know. Yeah, but I've lost more than five. Like trying to when I'm doing classes and I'm trying to show temperature rise in a steak while I'm flipping it, so if they actually leave it in a grill, or God forbid, use it as a frying thermometer, they're gone. Of course, there's a lot of them have peflon uh wire coating, and that only goes up about 450. I actually I actually have uh ceramic bead thermometer uh thermocouple.
+
+[39:39] Yeah. So I can get it up to 750. I I did want to get your decontaminated um and meathead does this, I do this, I'm sure you do it too. Is I I'll I'll cook medium-rare hamburgers, but I I grind my own meat and I in fact put them in boiling water for 20 seconds before I grind it. And and that cuts down all the surface bacteria, and in general, most of the interior the interior meat is pretty close to sterile, so you can get away with that.
+
+[40:03] Unless someone stab it, yeah. I don't want it. Again, I don't know. It should be is it's been just badly treated uh in most cases, but you can do the same trick with chicken if you get it from a local uh well for contamination, we have we have a thermometer question on the air, but before this really quickly, are you a believer in uh less bacterial contamination in air-chilled birds? Yes.
+
+[40:24] Okay. Uh wait, we have a caller that wants to ask you guys a question, but I don't want to miss him. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Um I uh picked up uh big green egg over the weekend and um I'm really excited to use it.
+
+[40:36] And uh the the question I had actually relates to digital thermometers, so I thought it'd be uh a good thing to to dovetail. Um I wanted to pick up something that I could use to um get the the temperature of not just the ambient uh heat in the uh Kamado grill um but also the you know whatever protein I'm cooking and I was hoping that uh there might be some device out there that would give me three thermocouple um uh sensors. Yes. Uh so that I could get ambient heat um like chicken breast and chicken thigh at the same time. Yes.
+
+[41:15] And if there's more, you know, great, I can throw on different stuff at the same time. Um but obviously as uh you just pointed out uh the heat is an issue when you know you've got it up above 500, you can't put silicone in there. So I'm wondering if there's anything that's that's wireless and can withstand the heat, so I don't have to be a wireless. Yeah, wireless puts another curve on it. Um if you'll go to AmazingRibs.com, we have a thermometer buying guide.
+
+[41:40] I have an electrical engineer, and we buy the thermometers, don't take samples, we put them through equipment that tests their accuracy, their speed of response, check them against the manufacturer's specs. But there are probes that you can buy that are plug in to a meter. So you can buy twenty probes, put one on a different part of the uh grill grate, put two in the meat, uh hang one through the ducts, wherever you want to put 'em. And then all you need is a single meter with a connector on it. Now, some of the meters have one connector, multiple connectors, but you can move the meter from probe to probe and measure as many different measurements as you want.
+
+[42:22] If you want something off the shelf that's remote read, um, I'm not happy at all with any of the Bluetooth devices we've tested. Bluetooth is a pain in the butt. It's really hard to pair sometimes. There are some nice units, maybe they'll solve the connectivity issues. But my favorite is made by a company called Maverick, and they have several models.
+
+[42:43] The one I like the best is not the newest model. It's called the Maverick ET 732, and it's radio frequency, not Bluetooth. And uh I can walk several blocks away from well, not that far, but uh a block away from the house and still get a good reading on it. It's got two probes, so you can use both in the meat or one in the meat or the other on the grill surface. But that's another point that we should point out.
+
+[43:07] We talk about measuring meat temperature. You don't want to use the thermometer that comes on a grill. It's usually mounted in the dome, which is handy if you're going to eat the dome. But if you're gonna eat the meat, you need a probe down on the surface where the meat is. So you need to get a digital thermometer with a probe.
+
+[43:25] This Maverick ET 732 costs about 50 bucks. If you want to do it, let me say two other things about thermocouples. Most of the ones you purchase, the uh the metal stainless steel probe is uh grounded to one of the leads. If you put more than two of them into the same piece of meat, you can get what's called a ground loop and get very unreliable measurements. You need special thermocouples if you want to put more than one into a piece of meat going to the same meter.
+
+[43:50] So look if you notice weird numbers, it's often because of that. That's a good point. I forgot about that. And I actually, and I've I've purchased what are which what are called floating uh sheath uh thermocouples that you don't have that problem, but unfortunately most manufacturers don't do it. Um that's an interesting thing.
+
+[44:07] Excuse me? I said I hadn't even thought about that. That's uh interesting. Yeah, and it becomes a problem when you have meat which has been salted because then it's a good electrical conductor. Sure.
+
+[44:16] You can actually get an electrical ground loop between one piece of meat down into the stainless steel grill over to the other piece of meat into the thermocouple. You can actually watch that happen. So I I use the right kind of thermocouple. Now for the this is not a common occurrence though. I mean, this is it you'd be surprised.
+
+[44:33] Um I've tested it in a bunch of commercial ones. Uh the other thing is the thermometer would suffer from that problem. It's that's about the probe, not about the thermometer. Yeah, it's the probe. Uh the other the other thing you might want to consider doing, which is a trick I use, is I get um these uh cotton braided uh laces, like you might put in your shoes, thick ones.
+
+[44:54] Uh I soak them with water, I put them over the Teflon part of the thermocouple probe and then I wrap it with aluminum foil. And that'll allow you to use uh a thermocouple uh on top of a really hot grill and not destroy it immediately. Yeah, I use mainly the fiberglass and silica ones, but they fray after a while. They fray after a while. The water helps uh keep the temperature low.
+
+[45:17] Uh you still have a weak point where the epoxy goes from the wire into the thermocouple, but if you don't do that, that you might get one one or two grills out of them if you're not careful. Now, caller, if you really want to go geeky, I don't know why you would for this, but if you really want to go geeky and you have some money, the cheapest, like super multi one that I know of, an outfit I've, I think Massachusetts, maybe Maine, called measurement Computing sells uh an eight channel DAC that has uh thermocouple inputs that are pre-calibrated. And years ago when I bought and they sell you, they give you a program, and it's uh you could do at the time it was 200 bucks with eight channels of input, and then you just buy yourself a spool of wire and make some thermocouples and you go to town. I used to use it to measure like eight things at once, and I'm not telling you to steal a copy of Lab View online, but they have a thing called uh I forget what they're one that their one that they come with works fine too, but it's super nerdy. There's uh there's like I can think of like five or six people that would care to even have eight readings at once, but well, I I'm willing to be as geeky as it takes to be as lazy as I want to be.
+
+[46:16] So I don't think it's gonna help you in that grill though. Like you know what I'm saying? Yeah, have you guys ever used it? That grill holds uh temperature really well. I mean, it's very efficient, and in fact, it's almost too efficient.
+
+[46:28] It's very hard to get uh what we want what we call blue smoke out of a uh big green egg, which is the best tasting smoke. It's very efficient. Uh so once you get the hang of it, do some dry runs. Fire it up and don't put food in there and waste food. Fire it up and uh cook without food and get your measurements down so that you can control temp.
+
+[46:48] Yeah, but the only thing that's a good thing. Maybe we mentioned burping. What? Oh, yeah, burping. Yeah, tell them, Greg.
+
+[46:54] Well, well, one of the problems with the the green eggs is is they are so efficient, they're running a little oxygen starved. And sometimes when you open it up to see what's going on, the oxygen rushes in, the coals catch fire, and you get uh uh kind of a hair removing burst of flame that comes out of the thing. So the right thing to do is you open it a little crack, you let the air in, let it burst, burp, and then you open the lid all the way. Uh and back on like multiple readings, it's very rare that you need that many readings. The only time I could think of that you would need it is if you were building a brand new bread oven and you were embedding thermocouples into the masonry at various depths so you could tell what's going to happen.
+
+[47:29] In an egg, you could just move the thermocouples around and see what the temperature distribution's like. Yeah, and we're good. I mean, like, my crew, my crew is like that though. And now you know where your hotspots are. Have you guys ever uh when you're uh cooking use these new cheap uh fluorothermal imaging cameras, found a good use for them?
+
+[48:06] Yeah, I I've used those. I've done a bunch of experiments with microwave cooking, which are kind of cool on my website, which use that uh uh look at the fact that if you put a uh say a slim gem in a microwave, it acts like an antenna and actually gets hot in in sections with nodes in between. Uh that's so awesome. Oh, that is that if you know I if you had taught me that when I was in college, I used to blow up light bulbs, uh you know, make plasma engraves, but I never thought to put a slim gym. All right, you know what you should do?
+
+[48:40] You're gonna have fun with this. If you want to like do like super plasma stuff with weird, you ever tried partially evacuating the inside of a microwave? Mm-hmm. Yes, it's because you're you're getting a light bulb if you're clever. It's crazy.
+
+[48:52] I I there's uh you think people used to do uh uh microwave dehydration because the theory was by increasing the evaporation rate, uh you could have uh fruits keep their shape basically as they're evaporating in a microwave under partial evacuation. So I tried it a bunch of times, and I would always get huge plasma balls all over the inside of the microwave. I I also did some work microwaving inside uh through uh ice ice, which is very cool. Yeah, well, that's like this microwave transparent so you can microwave inside an ice cube, which is kind of cool. Right, that is cool.
+
+[49:22] So, you know, Nicholas Curti, the physicist, that was his like his killer app with his baked uh microwave baked Alaska. All right, let's get back to grilling though. They call it baked Florida, though. Baked Florida, oh nice. All right, so let's talk about um see I'm trying to look at the myths that I want to get to.
+
+[49:35] Oh, my go back to myoglobin for a minute. You know, one of the uh the things that people get, and you have it in two separate places in the book, is uh one is uh I forget the first one, but the second one is this color is not an indication of dunness. And you know, uh your specific one was chicken. The problem is people just won't eat things that are that color. How do we well they won't eat chicken?
+
+[49:57] We're getting better at eating pink pork. The government gave us the okay. They lowered the forbidden temperature from one sixty-five to one forty-five. And if uh you want to cook pork down to one forty or one thirty-five, you're in for a real treat. You're getting a steak-like experience of tenderness and juiciness that you've never had in pork before.
+
+[50:17] And a few restaurants are doing that, and you're dealing with a whole muscle meat just like you are with the steak. You're gonna be pretty safe. Um, but uh chicken, we just have a mental block. My wife is uh FDA food safety scientist. Um she's pretty smart, pretty high-ranking uh government uh expert.
+
+[50:35] And I can bring in chicken from the grill that I've tempted and I know is safe 165, 170, and we cut into it and the juices run pink, and she'll look at it, she'll look at that bloody spot along the side of the thigh, and she'll get up and put it in the microwave. And now, you know, I can't fix I can't fix the color uh near the bone because you have this uh huge source of myoglobin sitting there in the marrow, but the surface, and a lot of people reject it on the surface, is if you put it in an acidic marinade, the acid will reduce the temperature that myoglobin changes color. Right. So one of the tricks is to use in buttermilk uh, for example, and other things will dramatically help near the surface. So for boneless meat, for people who are queasy about this, I recommend something that's acidic to help make it less pink.
+
+[51:24] The key here is, and Greg, you can elaborate, um, is that myoglobin changes color when it heats up. Um so it starts out pink, and that's the pink juices. So when you cook a steak, the juices run pink because you're only cooking it to 130, 135. And the meat stays pink. But when you cook the meat to 140, 150, it starts getting gray or brown, the myoglobin changes color.
+
+[51:49] Same thing in chicken. Now we're cooking chicken up to 160, 165, but something about the acidity of the meat prevents the myoglobin from changing colors like it used to. You know, nowadays we grow chicken from zero from egg to three and a half pounds in seven weeks. It goes from egg to store shelf in seven weeks. Uh used to be these birds would wander around and it would take months for them to grow.
+
+[52:15] The bones would calcify much more effectively. Now the chicken bones have very thin calcium uh on them, and so you can see the marrow through the bone. It the the the the blood in the or in myoglobin in the marrow will leak out, and you can in the picture, there's a picture in the book of really purple bone juice, and the juices will stay pink. It did they don't get hot enough. And uh this is a good point for Greg to point out um how uh the smoke ring works, because Greg did definitive research on this.
+
+[52:45] Oh I got two minutes and I gotta give it a go go go. No, no, I mean chicken can be pink for two reasons. One is because the myoglobin didn't denature and it didn't turn brown, but the other reason is nitric oxide and carbon monoxide from a smoker gets in there and fixes the myoglobin just like he fixed the photograph. And um and so that can be another reason why smoke meats are pink. And below the mason dix line people look at that and say oh good you smoked it.
+
+[53:11] And above the mason dix line they return it which drives the restaurant crazy. In both cases the as acidity will help you uh open a window where you can serve meat which isn't pink but is uh safe to eat. Another interesting thing about myoglobin that you know I've read in the research but also been borne out by my experience is it's not a simple temperature it's not a light switch. It's also rate dependent so if you're doing low and slow you're gonna have a different kind of uh interaction between finish temperature. And uh again that's a low and slow cook.
+
+[53:45] It's also often in a situation where the uh oxygen can't get out so the oxygen continues to refresh and keep the myoglobin pink and so it depends upon the thickness of the meat how quickly you're doing the cooking and a variety of other other factors. The myoglobin breaks down for more than one reason and some of those enzymes and so on if you cook low and slow they're more fragile than the myoglobin. So the thing that attacks the myoglobin dies away before it has a chance to work on the myoglobin. Um and so it it's it is very much a rate dependent thing. It's very much dependent upon whether the oxygen can get out or not which is in for example in marrow it's a little bit like a balloon the oxygen doesn't leave as easily.
+
+[54:29] The meat the marrow tends to stay pink longer for that reason. So it's it's a very complicated I mean I like it because it's those are knobs you can turn to adjust the final result but it is very complicated. So uh they're gonna kick us off the air here but so before we do I'm gonna I can say a couple things on the way out. By the way June who wrote in about the upside down cake please tell me exactly the problem you're having so I can solve it because I can't tell whether you're talking about the fruit is sticking to your pan or whether the texture of the cake is what's wrong. So write in tell me I'll get to the rest of the questions later.
+
+[54:58] Professor plug your website please it's uh genuineideas.com and there's a button that says food and all the articles are there under the food button. And and if you have not already gone there from this show you must go there right now. Don't eat lunch first go there go there right now. And Meathead to your website AmazingRibs dot com and the book is Meathead by Meadhead Goldwyn uh and uh Professor Greg Blonder. You should go out and you should purchase that instantaneously on the way out let me just say two things.
+
+[55:26] One bone I have to pick with you. I don't leave the fat cap on because of protecting the meat it's because the crunchy fat is delicious. It's delicious. And you're not gonna give me a chance to read but I will and what you have the 20 seconds I'll give the other one too. I have a bone to pick with both of you guys on the on the 225 versus three uh what is it 325 because I think it's accurate however higher temperatures than 325 I think will reverse their trend on the 325 because you're dealing with evaporative cooling a lot on the 225 keeping the meat temperature down.
+
+[55:56] But if you ever guys ever come on again we'll have that argument. I didn't even say what my argument is to people, so it's not a real bad I didn't even hear that argument. No, I mean like well, well, we can get into it. I think there's a bunch of things in the book. You should see you should everyone should read the book.
+
+[56:08] And then we read the book. We'll have them call in again. We'll talk about 225 versus 325, which I think is accurate as it's in the book. It's accurate. My only gripe is that if you were to go much higher, I think that the trend would not stay the same way.
+
+[56:21] It wouldn't, it's not linear. I think you picked two special temperatures. Well, I picked them, not Greg. And uh and I picked them because I like the uh 325 renders fat a little better in chicken. Right.
+
+[56:34] All right, so listen, go see their stuff. Uh thanks so much, uh, folks, uh guys, for being on uh cooking issues. Dax, also you want to say goodbye? Nastasi, you said nothing. Say something.
+
+[56:43] Hi. Cooking issues. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[57:05] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Physical Culture Collective. For more information, visit their website at Physical Culture Collective.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues Coming T live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1250, sometimes one. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Br br Brooklyn. Not with uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez today, unfortunately.
+
+[0:45] She cannot be here. She is doing she is taking a Nastasia day. So in the place of Nastasia, the place of Nastasio Lopez will be taken by our good friend Paul Adams, the head of all web empires for popular science. How you doing, Paul? I'm good.
+
+[1:01] The sidekick chair is so comfortable. Oh, no, yeah, more than mine. Yeah, yeah. Well, you uh so Paul, uh, you might know him from his Twitter uh handle at Popsi Eats, correct? Is that your Twitter?
+
+[1:12] That's correct. You uh do you not use uh the other one's your email, so I won't give that one out. So people won't send you random emails. So call in all of your popular science related or other or food or whatever, or Fourth of July related questions. Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[1:26] That's 718 497 2128, and with more enunciation, 7184972128. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. What was that number again, Dave?
+
+[1:37] I can't remember. I can't remember what that number is. Um, yeah. So anyway, we got a boatload of questions because we missed last week. I forget what was going on last week.
+
+[1:47] Oh, yes, Dax was graduating from elementary school. Yeah, Dax. He won a uh he won a leadership award. Do you know what's do you know what's garbage, Paul? What?
+
+[1:56] When when I was a kid, so presumably, you know, w when you had the awards at the end of school, it was that one freaking kid that won everything. Yeah. They had all those freaking medals around their neck, and they they were like weighed down with like a the the weight of medals, and just showing you how crushingly superior they were at charming the school uh administration than you were, and or at taking tests, or maybe they did their homework. You know what I'm saying? Those kids are now our leaders.
+
+[2:20] Yeah, uh I don't know, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Uh anyway, but point being that they don't do that anymore in the New York City public schools, they sift the awards out so that no one child earns all the awards. So is that person who got the science award really the best at science?
+
+[2:40] Or is it just that the person that got the English award they decided to give her the English award instead of the science award? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Let me put it this way.
+
+[2:48] So is Dax actually a leader? No, he really is leader because first of all, like they also give like multiple, like when I was a kid, one kid got the citizenship award. Yeah. Guess who it wasn't? Uh Dave?
+
+[2:59] Yeah. Did you win that award, Paul? The citizenship award? I don't think we had that. No?
+
+[3:03] David in the booth, did you have a citizenship award growing up? No, I don't know what that means. Did you have any awards in your elementary school or any of this crap? I don't think so. No, we don't have a graduation ceremony.
+
+[3:11] What are you are you from a hippie commune? Where are you from? No, but this was before like everybody had to be exceptional or whatever. Dude, dude, I was born in 1971, dude. Before what?
+
+[3:21] My point is is it's not about being exceptional. Awards, this is why you should give them all to one kid. Awards are about punishing the people who don't get awards. They're not about awarding the people who get the awards. Right.
+
+[3:33] It's about saying, Why are you so worthless? That's what it's all about. And so like that like nowadays, I think you're right. Like they're trying to make every so like, you know, they're spreading it all out, and I think it was probably good for me to realize that somehow I wasn't kind of working within their system. You know, you know what I mean?
+
+[3:44] Yeah, that's a good realization that you're talking about. Uh oh, I'm a great citizen. I help people cook things. You you're a great citizen, but not award-winning. No, I know.
+
+[4:01] Well, uh, uh, huh? The book. The book. The book is a better citizen than you are. Yeah, the book is a much better citizen I am.
+
+[4:08] Anyway, point being he won a leadership award, which is he deserved, and he was the only kid that won it. Wasn't like the citizenship where there was like five five kids. But let me put it to you this way the valedictorian, which is his, you know, one of his dirtbag buddies, is the valedictorian of the of the school. Yeah. And the only award she won was Valedictorian.
+
+[4:25] Does that make any sense? That you'd be the valedictorian of the school, but you don't happen to mop up one of the math or science or English or social studies awards? Does that make any freaking sense? Like the Oscars where you win like twelve Oscars. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:38] Yeah, right. But like at least, I don't know. It just seems to me that you should just let the one kid have all the awards and that's it. Right? Yeah.
+
+[4:46] Well, in your school. What? In your school, that's how you can do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It might it won't even be the best kid.
+
+[4:51] I'll just randomly assign all the awards to one child. That's the really baller way to do it. Just randomly assign all the awards to one child. Chat room saying don't be part of the system. Yeah.
+
+[5:01] No, but like, don't you think do they think that random assignment is the way to go? Just randomly assign the awards out. It's more like I say, it's about punishing people, not about rewarding people. Uh at least that's the way it felt. Right?
+
+[5:12] Right. So we have a lot of questions because uh two weeks ago uh we had um Meathead on. Do you have do you have his book? Yeah, I have three copies of his book. Yeah?
+
+[5:22] Do you have them in three different locations? Are they all the same? Okay, do you have them in three separate locations on three different heat levels? Do you have like uh like one of the books over direct uh flame and one over the indirect flame to see like yeah? Nice.
+
+[5:35] I have the advanced review copy, the regular review copy, and then uh how much change is there between the uh I have multiple copies of your book too. Uh yeah, when you're an editor. Yeah. There's a lot of changes actually between the advanced. There was a lot of I mean, yeah, even in the finished one, there was a couple of errors that I hoped it got this problem fixed.
+
+[5:52] Yes, yeah, which you caught from me actually, right? Yep. Yeah, nice. See, this is why people, if you write books, give them to people to read ahead of time. So because once you've like written something and read it eight billion times, you can't stand to look at it anymore for a while.
+
+[6:06] You need to put it down. And so you can't catch that somebody has like mislabeled all the fractions or something like this. And it's it's more difficult than you think. It's not just a matter of the spell check. Although that does help.
+
+[6:18] Editors are important. Editors are extremely important. They're extremely important. So listen, let's get to some questions. And then later, uh Paul uh a long time ago, Paul got uh in the um in his uh popular science, you know, mail bucket, uh, one of these new uh Breville, what do they call it again?
+
+[6:34] They call it the control freak. The control freak, which is uh, you know, a uh uh an induction hob that okay. I'll give you the quick story now. We're gonna talk about it later on in the program. But uh quick story is is that Breville, I don't know how much of this is I'm sure it's public, it's all public knowledge, right?
+
+[6:47] Breville bought the uh I don't know whether it was a controlling stake or a big stake or the entire uh culinary business from um poly science. So they bought like the culinary wing. I think a good portion of it. I don't know whether it was all of their circulator line or just some of it, but they bought it. Yeah.
+
+[7:04] Okay. So um then they were gonna come out with this new induction uh hob. I hate that word hob. Yeah, hob isn't that good. What do you use?
+
+[7:16] I say cooktop. Cooktop? It's not a good word. At least when you say cooktop, people who've never heard the word before can sort of piece together what it might mean. Yeah, but seriously, like if I just walked up to these people who are eating their lunch over here and I was like, hey, would you like an induction hob?
+
+[7:29] They'd be like, Hob? Hob? Yeah. Is that something the British? Is that a British thing?
+
+[7:34] It sounds Anglo-Saxon. Hobby. Yeah, it doesn't. It sounds like something that a Brit would say that an American would never say. Induction, but burner's not right.
+
+[7:42] Induction. Burner is close. Hmm. Anyway, let me think about it. Anyway, induction thingamajiggot.
+
+[7:49] And uh the idea of this induction thingamajigot is that it's a much more accurate uh and has more control and more whiz-bangery than other induction thingamajiggots. And uh we'll talk about it later. But the interesting thing about it uh about it, the interesting thing about it is they teamed up with uh Philip Preston, who is the guy, you know, who owns uh poly science, the guy who brought circulators to chefs originally, the like you know the one, you know what I mean? Who uh was and he actually just came out with a uh some sort of uh I if you look on the on the Twitter, uh you someone will look it up for me. He just came out with a new kind of sous vide documentary that he put out in a book or something like this.
+
+[8:24] But anyway, they teamed up with him on um on some of the control algorithms for the uh unit, so it's also co-branded poly science. Yes, it is a long way to say that it's Breville co-branded poly science. Did I mention that I've recently did I tell you this, Paul? I'd have no idea why, but recently I have become like most favored nation status for Breville. So they sent me a bunch of things to test as well.
+
+[8:46] So I've tested the unit myself. That's great. Uh it's fantastic. Anyone that wants to make me most favored nation status for testing equipment, yeah, I will love you forever, and my wife will hate you forever. So it's kind of a, you know, but she's not in the food business.
+
+[8:58] So if you're in the food business, you know, probably better to have her hate you and me not hate you. I don't know. Or maybe the other way around. I don't I don't know. But anyway, we can talk about it.
+
+[9:08] Uh we could talk about it later uh in the show. Uh also I have a request. Paul, do you know of a good mead? A good mead. Yeah.
+
+[9:17] No. Me neither. Here's the thing. I want a good mead. There has to be a good mead.
+
+[9:22] I have had bad mead, but not in many years. The meads that I've had are I've also read a lot about, you know, making meads, and they tend to get stuck because um I guess people don't put enough nutrients in. Uh and I think also people are trying to ferment it out to too high a uh too high an alcohol level. So they're shooting for like 20% or something like this. I've never had a dry mead, really.
+
+[9:42] Yes, what I want to try is a dry mead that clocks in at like, you know, like eight to ten percent alcohol. That's what I want to try. I want to try like an eight, somewhere between eight and thirteen percent alcohol dry mead. Here's the other problem with mead. People uh have you know written, oh me, you know, honey is very acidic.
+
+[10:01] It has a pH of three point high threes somewhere, right? It's like people, there's not that much water in in honey. So like when you dilute it down, I guarantee that the that the whatever you're gonna call it, mead must, whatever you're gonna call it when you dilute it down, is not is not in the in the in the threes somewhere. You know what I mean? Right.
+
+[10:19] Mead is simply pro unless you have unless it's infected with some bacteria that's gonna create uh a sourness like you would get in a um in a sour beer, like some sort of lactic acid bacteria or something like this. Oh, now I have, oh my god, I have uh leucano, you know, you know the bacteria leucano stock, uh mesarantheroid is or however you pronounce it? Yes. Whenever I say lactic acid bacteria and the word leuconostock goes through my head, I've said this before, I have the song Lucanbach Texas goes through my head, but it's Lucano stock, Texas. And it just keeps looping through my head.
+
+[10:52] And I'm hearing with Willie and Wayland and the boy, it's over and over and over. Thank God you're the only person that happens to. I mean, well, maybe someone else out there feels mean like, yeah, uh, no, give me a second to get the song out of my head. Wait. Wait.
+
+[11:06] Okay. So it's not like sour, right? So it doesn't have enough acidity to back it up, right? Isn't that going to be a problem? They say it drinks like uh a white wine, but a white wine has like a lot of acidity, you know?
+
+[11:17] This is why I'm doing these experiments now with fermented orange juice, and I'm hoping to try because the fermented orange juice has a like the orange juice itself has a fairly good acidity for something like uh uh uh a wine. You know what I mean? Yeah, it might be a little high. I had to test it. I bought a titratable acidity kit so I could actually test it and see what's going on when it's done, see where it hits, and all this stuff.
+
+[11:36] But uh like I want to mess around with that, and also people tend not to make when they make fruited meads, they're shooting on the sweeter side, they're not adding enough to make it really acidic. Right. Anyway, I'm working on these problems, but uh what I want to taste is a good commercial mead, a good, preferably dry, a little residual sugar is okay, but preferably dry because I want to see what it tastes like. Mead. So someone can say, hey, this, this is what mead should taste like.
+
+[12:01] I suspect that is out there. There's a meadery in New Jersey that was uh on the network not too long ago. Yeah, well, why don't they sell their freaking product in New York City? I called Aster, I call warehouse, I call Garnett, I called uh Discovery Wine, I call all of these like little shops here in New York. I called, I'm like, do you have mead?
+
+[12:18] They're like, meat, meat? I'm like, no, mead, mead, mead. And they're like, no. Except for Astor has a couple, but they're sweet meads. Yeah.
+
+[12:26] I don't want a sweet mead. I don't want something that is like something that just crunk up kids that can't take the alcohol. You know what I'm saying? Right. Tell me if I'm wrong.
+
+[12:36] Does someone tell me a place in New York City where I can walk into a store and buy delicious mead? That's all I want to know. What did these guys bring meat onto the uh onto the radio when they came? They did. It was delicious.
+
+[12:47] Oh, thanks, buddy. It was dry, it was crisp. Thanks. Who was it? Noah's Voice Meatery.
+
+[12:52] Noah's Vice. They're talking about Noah getting naked and his kids covering him up after the flood? Yeah, it was like a biblical reference. Noah's voice was meat, I guess. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:00] All right. Well, uh, although I thought it was grape juice. I thought very specifically it was grape juice, wasn't it? Grape juice? I don't know.
+
+[13:07] I didn't go to Bible juice. So one, someone bible me up. Anyway, but the point being that uh what did do we have any around that we can crack open? I'll give them props. Are they gonna can they send us some?
+
+[13:17] Can we taste it? Can someone get me this? We can reach out. Yeah, please. The other thing is um I want to taste real maple sap beer as well.
+
+[13:27] And there's a place called Lawson's, I think called Lawson's Puralist Lick, but it that it's it's like you can't get it. It's like the Pappy Van Winkle of fermented beverages. You can find it in Montreal. What maple beer? Yeah.
+
+[13:39] Solely maple beer. I don't want some sort of like, hey, I made a regular beer and I put a little maple syrup in called a maple beer. I want fermented maple. It has to be reduced first because maple sap is you're supposed to use end-of-run maple sap. It's not good for making sugar.
+
+[13:53] Yeah, it's gonna be too metallic. You ever had end-of-run maple syrup? The stuff that's beyond B grade? Yeah, C grade. Yeah, it's hardcore, like metallic, like I thought I was gonna love it because I love bees so much.
+
+[14:05] And then I was like, I I talked to this maple supplier. He's like, yo, I'm not allowed to sell that, man. It's like not like it's like that doesn't fit the US standards for what is maple syrup. I'm like, brother, I don't care. Can I buy it?
+
+[14:16] And he's like, I can't really Can I buy it? And so he brought a court in for me to try, and I was like, you know, man, you're right, I don't like this stuff. I don't I love B. Do you like the C No I don't like the C. No.
+
+[14:28] But the C is what you want for maple beer? Well, no, you don't want to take it all the way down to uh you don't want to take it all the way down to syrup. So I think they take it about halfway, less than they have to take it less than halfway, right? So they're doing roughly a 40 to one. They're doing a roughly 40 to one.
+
+[14:45] That depends on what you want the bricks to be, right? But if so, then if you did it like a quarter of as much, you'd be at uh I'd have to do the calculations, but like somewhere like uh a third of the way, somewhere between a third and a half of the way there, right? Yeah. Uh to probably, if I was gonna guess, I'd say they take it to probably like 15 bricks or something like this. And uh, I think if you're boiling it only to that level, you don't lose uh they call it nitrate, which is like the weird like stuff that scum that forms on the on the maple thing as you're boiling it down that they skim off.
+
+[15:13] Yeah, that it probably has some sort of protein and nutrients and other stuff that helps the yeast get going. But then you're supposed to ferment it that way rather than just buying syrup and watering it down, although apparently you can do that too. Right. But that's what I want. That's what I want to try.
+
+[15:26] And it's it's using a product and of run maple sap that is otherwise relatively useless. Yeah. I have consumed a bottle of that in Montreal. How was it? It was interesting.
+
+[15:38] Oh god, interesting means you hate it. Why'd you hate it? Um did they hop it? First of all, it like did they hop it, and if they hopped it, why'd they hop it? Everybody's gotta.
+
+[15:45] They did not hop it. It was sort of flat tasting. It didn't have a lot of nuances, I recall. Hmm. Do you think it's because they chose a poor yeast?
+
+[15:58] I don't have a lot of other maple beers to compare it to. Hard to say. Anyway, if any of you guys out there have a good source for uh a maple sap beer that you think is both delicious and that we can actually get a bottle of, we here at cooking issues would appreciate it. Yeah? All right.
+
+[16:15] Two bottles? Two bottles. At least two. At least two. Yeah, we got a caller.
+
+[16:18] Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? It's Anton from Boca. Hey, how you doing? Good.
+
+[16:24] Yourself? Doing well, doing well. Cool, man. Uh so I had a question here about uh celery juice. Okay.
+
+[16:36] And uh for some reason it keeps jellyfying, like within either a matter of hours or a few days. In addition to that, I'm also trying to clarify it. Right. Hit it up with some pectinase, and for whatever reason it's not stripping at all, and I put it like in a separatory funnel and not. Hold up.
+
+[16:53] So give me the exact procedure. You're taking the celery, and then what are you doing to it? Juicing it, straining it, hitting up some pectinase, uh, like a point two percent solution or whatever it is, the two grams per liter. Um, and then nothing separating at all. I wonder whether it's the strands don't get broken up by the pectinase and it's somehow being stabilized by what's in the strand.
+
+[17:17] I you know, uh uh, so the the you're using the pectanax ultra SPL? Yes. Okay. So Pectanax Ultra SPL wipes out or can wipe out a lot lots of pectins, also does hemicellulose. I haven't looked at the at the uh composition of uh cell celery, but um in other words, I don't know if it contains like lots of actual cellulose, which I don't think it will break down.
+
+[17:42] It seems like it would. Maybe. In which case you you might be making yourself some like you might be it might be stabilizing itself with like you know, microcrystalline. Well, it wouldn't be microcrystalline, but you might be stable, it might be stabilizing itself. I'm talking right out of my butt here because I have no idea, but I'm just trying to guess of why it wouldn't uh why it wouldn't um stabilize.
+
+[18:01] Here what I recommend. You you want to do it entirely cold because you want it or no, you're making a cordial, you're heating it. Uh no, I'm not heating it. So the flavor of celery uh infuses fantastically well. I recommend you just uh uh do a very uh fine like fine slivers of celery, boil and strain.
+
+[18:22] You're gonna get a lot of celery flavor out of it and color, and you're not gonna cloud it out. Wait a understandable how is it you're recommending during that? Well, like when I do gins and stuff, when I'm doing link uh or when I used to do a lot of celery gins, um I would just I would just cut it extremely fine, like you know, cross fiber, because remember it's got a lot of fibers, but it's actually very porous along the length of the celery. So as long as you like check check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, chick, check, chick, check, you'll be able to get just by heating it in the syrup that way and then straining the solids out, you'll be able to get a very strong celery flavor. Gotcha.
+
+[18:58] Without a lot of the clouding effects, because you're not busting up all of that stuff that would otherwise cause problems, but you're extracting a lot of the flavor. Like you might it it it it it will probably stay almost entirely clear from the get-go. Okay. But you gotta remember when you cook celery a long time, I mean, cooked celery obviously has a different flavor. So remember, if you're doing a celery cordial, also, if you're trying to emulate something like Dr.
+
+[19:22] Brown's celery soda, Dr. Brown's celery soda, which in my humble opinion is one of the greatest soda flavors all times, all times. Fantastic. Fantastic, all times. Celery seed, celery seed is actually a celery seed soda.
+
+[19:35] So if you want to emulate some of that, I also recommend throwing a little bit of celery seed into that. I just you know, I just made I never I haven't been on the show since I just made candied celery, which is also delicious. You should try that. Uh in the candy, the candied celery I did the uh the um the gradual replacement method where you you blanch it first, then you peel off the strings, then you put it into a one-to-one simple, bring it up to the boil, let it sit for a day or two, take it, bring it up to the boil, boil it down a little bit, add it back in for a little bit of the boil, and just do that again and again until you get it down to where you know when it cools, it'll get stiff, and then you throw it, you throw some extra sugar on the outside of it, put it in the dehigh until it kind of like gets stiff. Man, is that stuff.
+
+[20:16] Oh what's the texture like? The texture is like candied, it the texture that I took it to is is like uh not as firm as a as an apricot, but firmer than an Australian glazate apricot. A little bit a little bit less firm than candied pineapple. No crunch left. No crunch.
+
+[20:38] I've also taken the strings out, so no strings. And also, this is my secret trick. Are you ready for the secret trick? And I would do this with your celery cordial as well if it wasn't going to be acidified. I added a pinch of to the last boil, I added a pinch of malic acid.
+
+[20:51] Right, brighten it a little bit. Clever. Um, yeah, you know. We were talking on Twitter a couple of weeks ago about is there a genetic predisposition to like or dislike celery? And someone from Monell chimed in saying that andostrenone, androstenone is uh flavor that's present in celery and also in borer saliva.
+
+[21:14] I like bo I like me some boar saliva. That's good, yeah. So what kind of people like boar saliva and celery? The same people. The same people.
+
+[21:22] If you don't like boar saliva, you might not like celery. Look, I think we've had this discussion on the cooking issues before, but you know how there is a genetic there's a genetic look, there's a genetic component clearly to certain things like cilantro, right? Like right? But it does, it's not a genetic thing determining whether you're gonna like it or not. It's a genetic marker showing that you're going to perceive it in a certain way.
+
+[21:41] Yes. There are plenty of people in Mexico who have the gene to have it taste soapy to them and they still love it because they were raised to like it. Yeah, we got on the trail of this because there were a lot of people complaining online that celery is totally watery and tasteless. They're completely wrong. They're completely and utterly like that is wrong.
+
+[21:59] Are these the same fools that say that bay leaves don't have flavor? Possibly. Fools. Fools. I was gonna add in for you as well.
+
+[22:08] I don't know if you've ever tried the uh going back to your meat question. There's also have you ever tried the zombie killer? No. Uh bee nectar. No.
+
+[22:17] Good. So it's a little bit drier. Is it good? That one's good. I I recommend that one.
+
+[22:23] It's within that 10% that you're looking for. Can you get it in a store? Can you just go buy it? Or do you have to get it shipped to you? Uh I mean, I can buy it down here in Florida, so I don't know how available it would be there.
+
+[22:38] Yeah, I'll look around for it. The other problem is here in New York we have the issues where no one knows where meat. So I don't think mead can be sold in beer stores here. And so, like uh because that they don't add any malt to it, or there's nothing and it's not cidered. It doesn't fall in any normal category.
+
+[22:52] So I think it's in a wine category, and the wine stores don't want to sell it because they can't push it, and the beer stores can't sell it, and so everybody gets hosed. But so maybe it's e maybe it's easier outside of New York, you know, someplace that has uh different laws. Maybe somebody needs to open a mead store in New York. Maybe, or you know what else? Like there's a there's a certain minimal malt content that you need to add to things to have them be a malt beverage.
+
+[23:18] Because it's saying malt beverage on the well, next time you look at it, see whether it says malt beverage somewhere on the bottle. It's a not that a lot. You don't need a lot of malt. So, like some of these guys doing the maple stuff, dope it back with some malt too, so it can be a malt beverage, so it's easier for them legally. It's just another one of these things where the legal stuff gets you into into really ridiculous trouble.
+
+[23:36] Right. Like we should just have our taxes based on like the fact that it is alcohol and what content alcohol is, not like whether or not it was made from barley or made from whatever. It's just our laws are so arcane and strange, you know. Anyway, might just be. Well, sounds good, Dave.
+
+[23:51] Thanks once again. Always helping with solutions, man. All right, thanks. Well let us know how it works, alright? Yeah, good.
+
+[23:56] Thank you. All right. So uh let me see. John Riper uh wrote in, uh, longtime listener. Uh props to you guys for the great series of guests you've had on recently.
+
+[24:06] Thank you. Does that include Paul? Thank you. Yeah. Uh are there any rules of thumb for the shelf life of various hydrocolloids?
+
+[24:13] Lessithin, by the way, I hate that word. Lessithin. Do you? Lessithin. Why?
+
+[24:19] Because it looks like leceth. It doesn't it doesn't look right. It doesn't look English. No, it's fine, Dave. You like?
+
+[24:26] Yeah. David, what do you think of the word lecithin? Uh kind of makes me uncomfortable. There you go. All right.
+
+[24:32] Uh lessithin seems to conk out after just a month or so. Uh that month or two. That's because it's like incredibly hygroscopic. So it's like pulling stuff out of the air, it clumps up. You need to store that stuff in completely vacuumed, uh out like low moisture with like silica pack.
+
+[24:48] The stuff just like sucks up moisture like nobody's business. I don't think it actually goes bad though, does it? Does it suck up moisture? It doesn't like it clumps and becomes even if you store it with silica gel in a vacuum without compressing it, like in a jar. I haven't done that.
+
+[25:03] I buy liquid lecithin. I don't use it, so I don't have that problem. When I used to use it at the school, we used to just throw it away all the time because people would open it and it would clump and then I would throw it away. I make my own cooking spray out of oil and alcohol emulsified with a little liquid lecithin. And do you call it Paul instead of Pam?
+
+[25:20] It's a good idea. Yeah. Uh what do you like it better than the one that you just buy? It allows me to vary my oil. But I mean, do you do do you think it makes a difference?
+
+[25:35] No. Okay. You just want to do it. This is why I love Paul. Okay.
+
+[25:39] Uh are there any rules of thumbs on the various uh shelf lies of hydroco hydrocolloids? Uh lecithin. We mentioned are there others that need replacing in anything short of five years or so? Look, I think some of these things, they're they're basically they're like, you know, they'll be around for the next ice age as long as they're kept dry. Like I I I have used, I have personally used uh alginates uh that are 10 years old.
+
+[26:04] You know what I mean? I uh uh gel in, I've probably used gel in that's seven or eight years old. Um, so it's um I you know I just I just don't worry about those things. And certain things like enzymes have a shelf life. But the good news about enzymes, the good news about any of these things is they're kind of like medications.
+
+[26:25] There is a shelf life that they have to put on because they have to put it on. But uh typically it's there, it's not like um it's not like uh a balloon that like after a certain date, like it has lost all its airpot was kind of like a balloon, actually. It's slowly degrades. So if something was let's say that uh you were gonna have a hydrocolloid, and let's think of a method where it might degrade. There's some moisture in the air, maybe it hydrolyzes over time, breaks into smaller units, doesn't have the same kind of functionality it used to.
+
+[26:51] It's possible, right? Sure. Um basically it's just gonna get less efficacious over time. It's not gonna like be good one day. There's no safety issue.
+
+[27:02] So it's not gonna be like good one day kill you the next. Right. Right? So the only shelf lives that I really worry about are shelf lives that are either due to quality, like this stuff's gonna go rancid on me, but these things in general don't contain fats. And then two, um, is it gonna lose uh if it is it gonna lose efficacy?
+
+[27:20] The other one that you want to worry about on shelf life is chitosan. Kitosan, anything that comes in a liquid format, like I don't know about liquid lecithin, they are usually, if they're sold as a shelf stable thing, they are mostly shelf stabilized, but they're not permanently shelf stabilized. So things like chitosan, if you don't store them in the fridge, they'll throw uh they'll throw a uh a mold flock after a while and you have to pitch them or or things like this. Um, you know, so I would worry about mostly liquid preps, things like enzymes like Pectanex Ultra SPL tend to uh degrade slowly in terms of their efficacy, so you have to add more. So in general, it's good to keep those things refrigerated and also to use them in a relatively timely uh manner.
+
+[27:59] But if you're not using them industrially and you're not counting on a gram being a gram all the time, a hundred percent of the time, then what do you think, Paul? Yep. Yeah, transglutaminase is the big one for me. Oh, yeah, that's true. Uh what do they put on it?
+
+[28:14] Six months? As long as you reseal it though, I've used stuff that's saying a year, but Calustrian sells it unrefrigerated. So I'm always Wiley Wiley Dufrein, uh, you know, uh chef extraordinary, my brother-in-law, goes in and repeatedly tells them not to do that, and they think he's some sort of like insane, like homeless man. He doesn't look like a homeless man, but they think he's like some crazy person. Like, you know, like uh like I don't know, what's the chef equivalent of a cat uh like a cat lady?
+
+[28:44] Uh transglutaminase refrigeration proselytizer. Yeah, he's like, you have to refrigerate that. And he he's told it to him like 20 times, and they're like, okay, bye. It does still work. I buy it there.
+
+[28:55] Really? Yeah. Well, what's true is it doesn't need to be uh frozen. It's supposed to be frozen, right? But it doesn't need to be frozen if there is no water present.
+
+[29:04] So if you have actually packaged it in a place where there is zero water present, then freezing it in theory shouldn't do that much to help it or to hurt it. As soon as there's any moisture present, the freezing prevents the it from gluing itself to itself, you know, or gluing it or like gluing itself to the case, you know, whatever. You know what I mean? Right. Whatever.
+
+[29:24] Anyone take it? The wet dog test is good. Wet dog test, always good. Famous cooking issues, wet dog test. Sprinkle some on some uh chicken, chicken chicken breast, my favorite, and chicken thigh.
+
+[29:35] Chicken, I think is the most effective because it's relative neutral. If you put it on there, rub it in, and then uh sniff it. Don't huff the freaking stuff, but if you sniff it, it should smell like wet dogs, or like you don't have a dog like a wet wool sweater. We got a caller? We do.
+
+[29:47] Caller, you're on the air. Oh, hey, how are you? This is Rob, uh calling from the North Fork of Long Island. Um big fan of you guys. First time calling in.
+
+[29:57] Um, how are you doing today? Doing well. Doing well. Good, good. Um, I got kind of a kind of a random question for you.
+
+[30:04] Um, I'm actually out here vacationing with some friends, and um been getting really into the foraging scene and uh made a bunch of stuff that we foraged locally up here. Um we got these really cool uh we made an S Batch of of wild mussels that all of us gathered, probably about a hundred of them. There's really cool little guys that have sort of ridges that I'd never really seen before, but they were like delicious. And uh were they muscles or were they orcshells? What's that?
+
+[30:31] Were they mussels or were they arc shells? Were they white with ridges or were they the classic like like like blue and and blackish mussels? Pretty classic looking with um just with these little ridges that looked a little different. Um but yeah, classic looking muscle. Uh all right, cool.
+
+[30:48] Sorry, go ahead. Uh we had that and and some some wild herbs that we found and uh these little wild carrots with these sort of little lacy flowers on the top. Okay, be careful with wild carrots. Do you have an expert with you? Uh we don't, and I'm actually calling uh we don't really have internet access out here, but my phone works and a couple of people aren't feeling so good.
+
+[31:08] And I just figured you guys. Is it the are you joking? Are you joking with me by the way? Is this a joke? Are you calling to test me or not?
+
+[31:16] Uh no, I'm I'm I'm serious. Okay, listen, you have to be careful. Uh Paul, look up someone look up carrots right now. Are they uh um belith uh are the what what what family are they um balayf? I can't pronounce it.
+
+[31:27] Umbrella umbilesia. You have to be extraordinarily careful with with umbilaces because there are some extremely extremely poisonous versions of umbilaces, like things like wild parsley and wild carrots, very, very dangerous to forage. Do you have any left? Uh we got a couple, yeah. You need to take a picture, you need to take a picture of it, and you need to send it to a poison control person to make sure that no one now there are some that are relatively different in terms of what they uh you know what's in them uh or what's not, and I am not an expert, so I cannot diagnose it.
+
+[32:02] But you want to make sure that someone didn't consume anything related to water hemlock or any one of the other uh umbilacy uh family that are no good for you. In general, any APACA. A P so they're not, they're safe. Yes. Look up look up look up searching, look up searching for we're sort of out here, we don't really have internet and look up searching for the Paul's looking it up for you.
+
+[32:26] And David, you look it up too. Look for wild carrots dangers. Cool. The APACA, also known as umbilliferae. Yeah, so it is one.
+
+[32:34] Commonly known as the celery carrot or parsley family. Okay, you need to be careful. So take a picture of this. Can you if you can text it to uh uh me, I don't know how to get uh or just call shoot. What should we do here?
+
+[32:50] I cannot I I mean I I'll probably just drive into town because I'm worried, you know, that a couple of the girls have diarrhea and uh go get the go go right now. Go right now, please maybe have an iron. Please go right now, bring it with you, have them test it. When you get better internet access, try to get a positive ID. You have to be really careful when you're for uh foraging for wild carrots, wild parsley, and stuff like that.
+
+[33:12] You need to really be like a hundred percent sure of the diagnosis. I don't want to worry you too much because there's lots of stuff that can just give you a stomach ache and and you're probably gonna be all right, but please don't mess around with it. Hang up now, go. Please text, please, um uh uh please tweet at cooking issues. I want to know that you guys are okay, all right.
+
+[33:30] All right, yeah, we kind of had to use um the extra well water. It smelled a little funky too. Maybe not today. Well, let's hope it is. Let's hope it is.
+
+[33:38] Yeah, get going right now. I hope it's the well water. I'm sure you guys are okay, but please take care of it, all right? All right, thank you. Bye.
+
+[33:44] Forging issues. Yeah, hope they're okay. Saving lives on cooking issues. Well, who knows? I mean, uh, let's hope, let's hope that's hope.
+
+[33:51] It's the wall well water. I mean, well bad well water will get you really sick. And the odds are that that the stuff that they forage is not poisonous, but the the I've never foraged that stuff, and I've never become an expert in foraging that type of plant simply because there's all these warnings on wild uh carrots and and parsley. So I it's Paul, you also have forage, so you you know you know you stay away from that stuff too, right? Yes.
+
+[34:14] Yeah. I mean, I haven't had occasion to stay away from it, but I would stay away from it. Anything anything that looks like uh like uh like an umbrella, like I stay away from it. Whether we're the flowers look like an umbrella, I stay away from it, unless I planted it. Let's take a quick break and come back with uh more cooking issues, hey, this is Gavin Van Vlack from Physical Culture Collective, Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[34:58] You are listening to the Heritage Radio Network. Gavin Van Vlack and Jenny Livingston at Physical Culture Collective bring you an alternative gym experience right in Bushwick. It's fun to move around and to move around in a way that you wouldn't normally get a chance to do. So, like a lot of what we do here is um, you know, on the ground or standing. You're not, you know, you're using equipment, but you're not using machines.
+
+[35:23] I grew up in very alternative cultures. I grew up in the punk rocket hardcore scene. Muay Thai was something that very much resonated to me. And it was like, yeah, this is this is something that I can get around. This is a this is a sport that's for me.
+
+[35:36] Learn more about classes and membership options at Physical Culture Collective.com or visit them at 857 Broadway in Bushwick, Brooklyn. And we are back. I hope those guys are okay. I'm sure they are. Okay.
+
+[35:52] Uh let's get to some uh questions. Uh by the way, uh longtime listener uh Brandon Johnson sent in uh a package for us to look at it, but uh I'm gonna talk about it. Not gonna talk what's I'm not gonna talk about today because I don't really know, I don't really understand what to say about it. But Brandon, give me uh give me another email. Let me uh let me know uh let me know what you want to talk about on that.
+
+[36:11] Uh Quinn wrote in. Uh I've been looking to make an outdoor tandoor oven for home use. This is like safety day on uh cooking issues. I've been looking into making an outdoor tandoor oven for home use. My main problem is that I have not been able to find an ungalvanized trash can needed to contain the clay pots, firebricks, and vermiculate, which is a good word.
+
+[36:29] It is a good word. Vermiculate. It's weird. Why? Be ver like it sounds like because it's like loose like worms have gone through it.
+
+[36:35] Is that why it's vermiculate? Probably. Yeah, I feel okay with that word. Yeah, me too. It's the only vermi word that I like.
+
+[36:42] You don't like vermitelli? Uh it grosses me out because I know it means like wormitelli. You don't like worms? I I like them. I like them in the garden.
+
+[36:51] Do you like to eat worms? Vermiculture. Uh that's not my thing. I know that you're uh you're a you're uh a true, you've taken Jeffrey Steingarten to his. I mean, I've eaten worms, but I'm not like, oh, you know what?
+
+[37:03] Worms, that's what I really want tonight for dinner. It just doesn't come up. I like the word vermaculture. It doesn't come up yet. Yeah.
+
+[37:10] And it won't because it's still not the most efficient way to raise protein. Is it really more efficient than just like agriculture? I mean, you gotta feed them something, right? Yeah, but you don't have to feed them something that you would otherwise use for anything else. Worms go really well with chilled monkey brains, right?
+
+[37:29] Chilled a monkey brains. You see, you make me like you make me bust out the accent because anytime someone pulls out anything from Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, I have to go with it. You know what I'm saying? Can't stop once though. Can't stop, yeah.
+
+[37:42] Can't stop once. Chilled a monkey brains. Snake a surprise. That guy is awesome. I wish I could remember that actor's name.
+
+[37:49] Let's get him on the show. Oh my god. If he's still alive, I'm gonna get that guy on the show. You know who the my favorite, like uh uh deep, deep voiced dude from the Indiana Jones series, though, is the uh well, his name just went out of my head. The guy who says bad dates in the first one.
+
+[38:04] Salah. Yeah, bad dates. I love that guy. And then uh she kisses him and he starts singing, I am the monarch of the seas. I am the monarch of the sea.
+
+[38:13] Remember that? No, I don't. Oh, great. Are you not an Indiana Jones fan, Paul? I am.
+
+[38:18] Maybe I closed my eyes during that. I remember that. Yeah. Except for Karen Allen kisses him. Yeah.
+
+[38:23] Yeah. Her, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, uh you didn't close your eyes though when the propeller chopped up the Nazi, right? Of course I did.
+
+[38:30] You closed your well, uh the one that I saw it when I was entirely too young, and the face melting really like kind of wiped me out. I still haven't seen that. You still haven't seen the face melting? I think you can handle it now, Paul. I think you could take it now.
+
+[38:41] Uh, my main problem is that I haven't been able to find an ungown. We're back to Quinn's question on Tandors. I haven't been able to find an ungalvanized trash can needed to contain the clay uh pots. Uh I've heard that galvanized metal gives off toxic fumes at high heat. Is this true?
+
+[38:55] Yes. Uh galvanized, hot, you know, galvanized is uh covered in zinc. Zinc vaporizes at a very a fairly low temperature. Uh it makes kind of like white and yellow, uh weird wispy craps on the outside of the metal, and you get a fume that comes off of it. I myself, uh you get what's called metal fume uh fever.
+
+[39:14] Uh and I myself have had this. Uh it didn't obviously kill me or wipe me out, but um when I first learned to weld uh in college, they only they limited my access to the welder. So I put all of my money together and I bought one of those like Home Depot 110 volt MIG welders, and then I brought it at college into my dorm room and was welding all night in the bathroom. And I was welding, uh I was making parts, and so I was welding galvanized nuts onto pieces of of metal all night. I was in in my bathroom, communal bathroom.
+
+[39:48] People would come in and I would stop welding, and they're like, What the what are you doing? And I'm like, they wouldn't let me use the welder at the shop. So I'm there, and like uh in the morning, thank God. Thank God. Well, I got sick, but thank God, not not terribly.
+
+[40:03] No one in maintenance had any idea. I didn't realize this, but the the the the slag coming off because it was flux cord welding, you know, because I didn't have gas because I really wasn't rich, you know what I mean. I was using flux cord welding. Uh the the slag and the little metal balls pitted all of the porcelain and tiles in the thing, made little melt balls in it. But they had no idea who or what to blame because it's not in the realm of mental possibility that some knucklehead idiot student has gone welding all night in the bathroom.
+
+[40:39] It just doesn't freaking compute. So I got off Scott uh Scot free on that one. Anyway. Metal fume fever. Metal well, yes.
+
+[40:47] I meant as far as the administration is. I got my comeuppance because I've I felt very sick. Anyway. Um, if so, perhaps it would be wiser for me to buy a Tandoor oven instead. You can also, what people do with the galvanized ones is they'll do a burnout or buy a bucket that's uh regular steel with paint on it and do like a long hot burnout of the bucket.
+
+[41:07] It makes really noxious fumes, but usually you can do it away from wherever you are. That's what a lot of people do when they're making like I've done that myself. So, like uh later on at a different location, we were making uh 55 gallon drum uh grills. Different bathroom. Different, well, on a roof, actually.
+
+[41:24] And we cut them and we were torch cutting them, and that's nasty because the fumes are disgusting. But then you just basically prop them up and you do massive, massive uh burnouts in them, and you burn the paint off, and then usually you're okay, which is another way to go. But you recommend going to get the Gulati Junior Home Tandor Model 100. I have not go go to the next go to the biggest one that he recommends for home. That's what I would recommend.
+
+[41:45] Uh Quinn. Good luck with that. Um we got a question in about uh from Judy in Maldon Mass. We have time, oh yeah. Uh in Maldon Mass.
+
+[41:55] Uh, and uh she shares my aversion to the outdoors. It's not, it's the sun that I hate. I like being outside if there's no sun. I like overcast days, I like I like forests. Anyway, she writes uh uh I'm recently uh unemployed for four and a half months and have motored through the episodes.
+
+[42:11] I only have 33 left to listen to. My goodness, that's uh that's a lot of motoring. Uh it's a font of information unlike anything else. I've certainly had a lot of aha moments. Uh recently I joined um uh sweet green and opening their new store in downtown crossing here, and it's pretty much changed my life.
+
+[42:26] Up until a week ago, I've always had an aversion to raw kale since a friend a decade ago tried to pass it off as cooked. This is not a friend. This is not a friend. A friend who tries to pass off raw kale as cooked kale, not a friend. Enemy.
+
+[42:39] Why would you do that? Why would you do that? Umadays I come around on this though, I still can't say I love it. Um so what's the deal? Why is it that it's so damn hard to cook kale correctly?
+
+[42:50] I'm not sure I've heard of the existence of a wilted kale dish. It's not hard to cook it correctly, it's just everyone thinks that you can just cook it for a couple minutes and then go. It's like collards. You gotta cook it for a long freaking time to have it actually taste good. It's not, it wasn't like when it's developed as a variety, it wasn't d developed to be like, you know, uh uh a spring roll wrapper.
+
+[43:10] It wasn't, you know, or like a lightly wilted thing. It was meant you you were meant to cook the bejesus out of it, unless it's extraordinarily young. So now people pick all this kale that's extraordinarily young, and then they can do it like lightly on a pizza or in a salad or something like this, and it's not so terrible. But like kale is meant to be a big old tough mother of green that you chop up and you cook the ever-loving snot out of it. That's it's not hard.
+
+[43:34] It's just it's just for some reason we've forgotten what kale is for. And uh what's her name? Mimi Sheritan, who I often disagree with, uh, just did something about uh on NPR about this. Yeah. Uh yeah, and you can go uh look it up.
+
+[43:46] But anyway, I think she's sour. Really? Yeah. Anyway, but she's right about the kale, and she blames herself. She's like, I was on the kale bandwagon, but crap on what's happening right now with kale.
+
+[43:56] That's what she said. Crap on crap on it. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I do like you after all. Well said.
+
+[44:01] Yeah. It's essentially an industrial garnish. They use it in supermarkets because it never wilts. Industrial garnish. That's like is that an it's more of an album than a band name, right?
+
+[44:11] Right. Or a hit single. Additionally, uh one thing I've always uh one thing I've always stumbled upon, never been able to successfully extra execute is Christina Tozi's buttermilk cake. It never comes together just right. I try to bake it anyway.
+
+[44:24] I flip it onto a cutting board and it's all over. I know that anytime I've seen this recipe, Tozy emphasizes the importance of keeping everything chilled. Uh thinking uh on this after listening to cooking issues, I wonder if the cake should be like uh grinding meat where you initially freeze your bowl and beater. Any insight on this is uh would be much appreciated as I'm a fan of pineapple upside down cake and making the um uh milk bar version would be incredible. Uh thanks for the inside, Judy.
+
+[44:47] And then I asked for more info, and she said it's the cake uh texture that's coming out wrong. I originally tried making Toesy's barely brown buttercake for her apple pie layer cake. I think it came out very loose and messy, even though the surface looked cooked. After uh hours of listening and listening, uh it's simply a little tingle down my spine to be called out on cooking issues. Okay, well, I I emailed Christina and I said that you were having problems.
+
+[45:09] Uh and she said the secret to the cake is to really value the creaming process and ingredients uh so um step, so uh sort by step. Because the non-fat buttermilk we use in our cake recipes, so listen, because the non-fat buttermil we use in our cake recipes contains so much water that you have to be very careful about streaming it in little by little into the fully creamed butter, sugar, eggs, and oil. The buttermilk often looks to force a separation, but your job as a baker is to force a homogeneous homogenization. It takes longer than most expect, two to three minutes, and it's a crucial step to achieve before adding any of the dry ingredients. XO, XO, Christina.
+
+[45:44] This in from Steve in Los Angeles. Hey guys, I'm having trouble shopping around for succinct acid. Most of the offerings available online are in tablet form. And there seems to be one uh available on Amazon who has it in powdered form, but the bottle says for lab or RD use only. Uh is this one of those warnings that's just there because of the extreme concentration or is it cool to use?
+
+[46:09] Um although you say you're gonna use it for champagne acid. I don't put succinct in champagne acid. I put it in lime acid blends, but you know, the champagne acid is tartaric and uh uh and um lactic. Um he also adds, I find it amusing that Amazon tells me the people who bought it also bought liquid intelligence and some more acids. I looked at it, uh, it's reagent grade, um, Steve.
+
+[46:31] So I can't tell you whether or not it's it I I wouldn't trust it as safe. Reaging, I would trust only USP grade, which is United States Pharmacobia grade, or the uh FCC like food grade stuff. Um it it's entirely possible that it's safe, but it each chemical has its own way that it's synthesized and the o and and and their own possible contaminants that are in it. So it could be that this facilities and everyone that makes succinic acid makes the reagent grade in a in a purity that's not acceptable for USP, but doesn't have anything that's not gonna hurt you, for instance, heavy metals or other contaminants or poisons. But it's entirely possible that it has some terrible contaminants in it.
+
+[47:07] So I would not use it, even though uh succinic acid is used in very small quantities. Um I'll have to look and see if I can find a um see if I can find a uh a source of USP succinic acid, it's not uh fantastically expensive. Shoot, they're gonna rip us off the how much time do we have left? Oh, it's okay. You want to take one last call, actually?
+
+[47:23] Uh yeah, call her, call her. Oh boomer, impatient. All right. So listen, I'm gonna have to deal with John uh Vermylan's fruit trimmings questions, Alex's steaming questions. Um Steaming questions.
+
+[47:38] You want you okay, you want to take a quick steaming question, or do you want to talk about the Brevo thing? How long do we have? I don't know. Like to get a like two minutes. Two minutes?
+
+[47:47] Yeah. Two. Two. Your your your your call, my brother. We also have a chibby churry question, which I'll get next time because I found some patents on pesto, which have the most hilarious bad translated English.
+
+[47:59] People, if you're writing a patent and you're gonna patent it in the English language, just pay someone to translate it properly. This the language is so amazing. It's like so heartfelt on how this person wants you to enjoy this garlic product that they're making. Uh in the in the the English, it's like it's like uh it's like the translations on the Kasukai gummies, which I think are my favorite. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so we'll get to that next time.
+
+[48:20] And Kiran has a question on uh pork tonkatsu, which we'll get to next time. You want to talk about the Brevel machine real quick? Yeah, what have you done so far with your Breville poly science control freak? Okay, so look it, it's expensive, right? How much does it cost?
+
+[48:31] 1799, I believe. Okay. Here's the thing, and it plugs into a wall outlet, which means the maximum energy it can get. It's 1800 watts of power, is like I think somewhere I calculated it once. The equivalent uh stove BTUs is somewhere between uh like uh 13 or 14,000 equivalent BTUs of uh of uh flame output on a on a pan.
+
+[48:51] Really? Uh yeah. It's uh the the difference it has with other things is it has a probe that you can control off of, and it has an actual like depressed like metal thing that measures the heat of the pan much more accurately than the glass things do. It's also bigger, it's more robust, it doesn't look like it's gonna break, it's got vents, it's got a lot of controls, not a lot of nice bells and whistles, and it's got a PID controller that can be adjusted for the level of aggression that you want. Backing up, you can set the exact temperature that you want it to heat your pan.
+
+[49:15] Oh, to the degree, yes, in either Celsius or Fahrenheit. Uh it plugs into a regular socket, and it's as powerful as any unit will ever be that can plug into a regular socket, and it comes in a very nice caterer's case that allows you to carry the thing around. Yeah. Uh the actually the only negative thing I can say about it is that the thing that plugs the probe into freaks me out because it's not at an angle that I can hit a hundred percent every time, and so when I pull it in and out, I'm always worried that I'm gonna ruin it over time. But uh, as uh as the band says, only time will tell.
+
+[49:42] Uh you know that's uh is that Asia? Anyway, so the uh only time will tell. Is that Asia? Could be. Anyway.
+
+[49:49] Um so it is I've I uh here's some awesome things you can do with it, right? First of all, I talked to Philip Preston who worked on it a little bit on the thing, but he couldn't get on because he's he's dealing with some people at at Boeing, you know, saving people in airplanes or whatever. Uh but there's a USB on it that is gonna allow for firmware upgrades, and he kind of hinted at the fact that you'd be able to put custom programming in eventually, meaning things like rice cooker programs uh and stuff like that, so that you can actually put profiles in. Now, whether they're gonna let you do uh a ramp on temp or a ramp on rate, or whether they're gonna let you hit a certain temp eventually and then knee it up or down so that you could do relatively different, interesting rice things, only time will tell. I really want a yogurt program that goes to pasteurize and then goes down to that'd be amazing.
+
+[50:35] Yeah, yeah. And I I think that the unit, if you get it now, we'll be able to do that, but I'm gonna try to get you more stuff. But it is without a question the best uh leftover reheater ever. The day that it came was my brother's birthday, and my mom was making like old school. Did I talk about this already in the air?
+
+[50:51] Macaroni, uh they call it macaroni and gravy in Boston. It's pasta with you know what we would call spaghetti sauce here, with all the different meats in it, right? Brijole, you know, pork skin, brijola, whole line of meatballs, pork chops, barabs, everything. Cooked. And so she brings the sauce, and for the in like if you burn the sauce in in this family, like literally decades, decades later, I hear the story about someone who's been dead now for two decades, who burnt the sauce once.
+
+[51:19] And they're like, oh my God, you remember when Annette didn't pay attention and she burnt the sauce? Burnt the gravy. When she burnt the gravy, and you're like, you're like, yes, you know, I wasn't actually alive yet, but I remember you telling me the story of the burnt gravy. You can never fix the burnt gravy. Because once you burn the tomato and it burns in, it permeates everything, you stir it once and the whole thing's toast.
+
+[51:38] It's done. Like anyway. So you just stick anything of any viscosity on, turn it on to the temperature you want, and it doesn't scorch it or overheat it. So it's the world's greatest reheater of uh leftovers and pasta leftovers, by the way. What?
+
+[51:53] We got a boogie. Oh, I hear we heated the gravy that way. But also, uh I use it on my pressure cooker to so that like my regular stovetop pressure cooker so that it never goes over pressure. I set it at five degrees above my finished pressure point. And it was what?
+
+[52:05] Ramps up. I set it at like uh in Fahrenheit, like two, I said it like two sixty-three or something like that. And it goes up to two fifty, and I could put it back down at 259 if I need. But anyway, Paul can come back on some time. We can talk more about the unit.
+
+[52:18] I'm I'm pretty uh like it so far. Wiley loves it. Really? Yeah. Anyway, we can talk more.
+
+[52:22] Someone asked questions about it, we'll talk about it. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[52:49] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member-based nonprofit radio station operating out of Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed.
+
+[0:23] The interviewers are always really well prepared and fun to talk to about the issues that matter to me the most. About how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage Radio Network by becoming a member today.
+
+[0:51] Go to Heritage Radio Network.org and click on the beating heart to donate. Today's program is brought to you by Origins, a speaker series about food, its source, and how we eat. Available on Heritage Radio Network.org. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:17] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brrrrrrrr from, you know, well, 1215 today to you know like 1245, 1250, sometimes one, it depends. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is joining us via telephone today because she's in the wild hey, you're in the wilds of Connecticut on the way back uh from uh Fourth of July, yeah.
+
+[1:56] Right, I'm on 95 right now. Going slow. That sounds awesome. 95 is 95. Like if I could choose one place as hell, it would be 95 with uh traffic.
+
+[2:09] The only the only thing that can make it worse is if you're driving that towards sunset with the shun sh shining directly in your eyes, because it's actually basically where you are, it's it's actually ninety-five west. It's not ninety-five south where you are. It's like you face directly into the sun. It's my favorite. I love it.
+
+[2:27] Right. Yeah, and your pickup would make it would make it the best. Oh, so for those of you who don't know, my I have a pickup truck. It was gifted to me by my cousin, and the brakes failed, and I thought I had fixed them this weekend, but it turns out that I made it halfway down my intensely steep driveway only to have the brakes fail again. Thank God for parking brakes.
+
+[2:47] Oh yeah. Parking brakes. And then when you hit you out there ever had hey David, you ever had your brakes fail on you? Sure, yeah. Yeah?
+
+[2:56] Like, was it scary for you? Very scary, yeah. Yeah. The um then once uh, you know, like so like what happened was the brakes had like started to get uh, you know, spongy, right? So I'm like, ah, you know, I don't know, man.
+
+[3:08] It hasn't been serviced in a while. So I just dumped some brake fluid in, gave it a couple pump pump pumps into the master cylinder, and the cylinder, you know, the the pedal comes back up. I'm like, well, I have brakes again. I can get to a place and you know have them check the lines and stuff. And then, like I say, halfway down the driveway, all the way down to the floor.
+
+[3:26] And then I when I had the parking brake and I and I would start hitting it, it would go it was like like an asthmatic version of me when I was young, and I could see like the mist of the brake fluid spraying out from underneath the freaking hood. So yeah. Yeah, it sprung a leak like that once. It was terrifying. Yeah.
+
+[3:45] How much did it cost you to fix it? I mean, I'm thinking I don't even remember. It was a junk car though, so man. I gotta fix it. I gotta fix it.
+
+[3:53] I I'm sure I can do it myself. It's just gonna take me a, you know, a whole day. Anyway, uh Nastasia is uh also a fan of broken cars. Are you in a rental car this this uh week or are you in a car that's gonna break down on the way home again? Well, I am in a rental car.
+
+[4:07] It's not stick, which is why I can talk to you like this. Um and hopefully it doesn't break down. Nice. Uh how is your fourth of July, Nastasia? It was good.
+
+[4:17] Fireworks, beach, sand, things you hate. Me, me, me. I love fireworks. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
+
+[4:23] Did you cook anything interesting? Um, just the regular stuff. Hot dogs and hamburgers. What about you? Um, I I've been modifying my uh vertical grilling techniques, tandoor techniques, to work in horizontal environments in the extremely hot fired cowboy grill that I have, such that uh everyone can hang out outside, you know, instead of like because they won't hang out, they won't hang around where the tandoor is, they won't hang around.
+
+[4:50] You know what I'm saying? So I had to modify the techniques, and my cowboy grill has a secondary side thing where I can put things to rest almost like hanging skewers. So I still did everything on skewers. I did chicken and um lamb. I did the chicken from raw because you just do it, you know, you marinate it tandoor style and pound the hell out of it, and it's so it's not it's gonna cook quickly and it's gonna be tender.
+
+[5:10] And the lamb I uh I did uh low tempted first at like you know, people actually don't like their lamb that that rare. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yeah, right. They they they think they want it rare, but they don't really want it that rare. So like you're doing a steak down at like 55 degrees uh Celsius, and people are like, Yeah, that's good.
+
+[5:27] That's where I want my steak. But you they they they think they want their lamb there, but really they want it like 56, 57. So that's where I cooked it uh up there, cooled it all the way down, and then just you know, incinerated the outside Tandoor style, like three times off and on. Good. Good.
+
+[5:44] Nice. Yeah. Did that one uh I used herbs from my garden, herbs. Yeah, nice. Did you do fireworks?
+
+[5:52] Uh so uh like I didn't think anyone was gonna be over, and so I didn't like buy fireworks, but I had leftovers from last year, some like small mortars, you know, and uh some uh rockets that are so I had some New Hampshire fireworks, some Connecticut read be bull crap fireworks, and some Pennsylvania fireworks I had left over. The Pennsylvania fireworks are interesting because you're allowed to so the rule in New Hampshire is as you know, Nastasia, that they only sell fireworks that uh that you light walk away from, and then as soon as they go off, they're they're no longer powered, right? Which means no bottle rockets, no um no bottle rockets, no rockets, right, in in New Hampshire, and no fire crackers, strangely, where in Pennsylvania everything's allowed. But New Hampshire, the store I go is a lot cheaper, so I like shopping there. Anyway, I had some leftovers.
+
+[6:40] So we had a nice little show, but it it only lasted the length of Ray Charles uh America uh the beautiful song. You know what I mean? It's like uh that that was that you know normally uh like I have to go from that into like I have to do like American Woman, I have to do like you know, like three or four songs to get through my uh my firework arrangement, but it's just this one was just all Ray Charles. I had the thousand watt and my, you know, remember my thousand watt amplifier? I had that cranked that had the Ray Charles going and then took back and forth.
+
+[7:12] Yeah, but I'm gonna do, I think I'm gonna do a I'm gonna try to make a trip to up to New Hampshire at some point before the summer's over, and then just have like a you know, maybe you can come. And end of the summer, like fireworks bonanza. All right, cool. We'll have a you know, a fireworks, bonanza. Look, the fact of the matter is everybody likes illegal fireworks.
+
+[7:28] Absolutely everybody, even except for like, you know, certain dogs and certain small children. Uh you know, you just gotta be you gotta be uh careful. Did you hear that some uh a poor kid stepped on someone else's improvised firework um over the weekend and got his foot blown off in Central Park? Oh yeah, I so yeah, I saw the news about that, yeah. Terrible.
+
+[7:48] Terrible. Um yeah, well, that's not really a cooking related issue, but there you go. Oh, uh on a cooking related issue, someone wanted uh to me to talk about it. I'm training my dog, my my lab, my black lab major. I'm training him, uh scent training him to be a truffle dog now.
+
+[8:05] So I saw that photo, yeah. Wait, so what do you do? You have them smell fake truffles? Well, that's the thing. I was like, this fake truffle worked because literally it's just like one chemical that they that they put into oil to make it seem like it's truffle oil, right?
+
+[8:17] So I just I just you know, and but the guy, my guy, Charles, his name is Lefebvre, but I call him look the fever. I call him Charles the Fever. He's like the Oregon truffle expert. And he says, yeah, you can use truffle oil and uh dogs somehow generalize. So basic so look, so here's the long and the short of it.
+
+[8:34] Truffles, you know, like all variety of truffles grow underground, right? We know this, we all know this. They grow underground. Uh, but the way that they reproduce is they create a smell that animals, like a lot of times smaller animals like your chipmunks, your voles, things like this, they smell that from up topside, dig down to get at it, eat it, and you ready, Stas? Poop out the spools.
+
+[8:58] They poop out the spoolas. So all truffles, when they're ripe, have some sort of aroma that's at least enticing to uh mammals in the woods, right? I mean, that's how that's how they've evolved to be uh to reproduce. So uh, you know, a doc Dr. The Fever tells me that uh that uh there are definitely truffle species.
+
+[9:23] In fact, I know I looked it up, there's a one called the pecan truffle, which is harvested commercially in in uh down in Georgia and down south, but which grows all the way up to Quebec in in conjunction with uh hickories, pecans, uh, and like sometimes oak trees. But he says that there's definitely truffle varieties, it's just you know, uh he doesn't know if they taste good, and a lot of them haven't been characterized yet. And he says, like part of the problem with truffles is for instance, so I'm going to the I'm going to Oregon during truffle season in I guess January or whatnot to, you know, see firsthand, like searching for for good truffles. But one of the problems is is they call the the truffles that are harvested over there uh Oregon white and Oregon black truffles, when in fact they smell nothing like European white or black truffles, so it's kind of one of those things where people are like, um, it doesn't smell like a truffle, so it's no good. Well, no, it's just different.
+
+[10:08] You know what I mean? It's just a different product. I mean it doesn't command the prices, obviously, of like, you know, uh uh the melanosporum or the magnatum, you know, truffles from uh from Italy and France, but you know, they're they're good, valid culinary things. Apparently, I haven't had one, you know, that you know, recently to to tell you. But uh he says one of the main problems with quality is that people harvest them with rakes, like chumpy people go out there with rakes and rake them up, and so you get these unripe ones, and he says unripe ones are culinarily useless because they only develop their characteristic aromas once uh they want to be dug up by a woodling creature and eaten and pooped out.
+
+[10:46] So he says the the only way to really harvest a good truffle, or otherwise, is to use uh animals like dogs. And so he trains his dog to look for and he says his dog can find all manner uh all manner of truffles, and he says truffles that are hunted that way, obviously they cost more because you know you're not just raking them up by the bushel, you're getting the ones that are ripe. But he says those are the ones that have culinary value. So who knows? Who knows?
+
+[11:10] So I'm trying to train Major to see whether he can ever find a truffle over in our neck of the woods, and then later on we'll figure out whether whether you know they're any good or not. But yeah, but you gotta be careful when he finds black plate and all that crap. Yeah, well, there's no there are no toxic truffles, right? Because remember, they're all meant to be eaten. However, uh underground things can look like truffles that are actually early stage uh mushroom, you know, in quotes because they're not eggs, obviously eggs, and those can be deadly poisonous amenitas, and so you have to cut them in half and kind of know what's going on.
+
+[11:45] Um those typically don't have a smell, but don't worry, I'm not gonna eat them until I know what's I'm not gonna eat anything until I know what's going on. Speaking of which, uh, for those of you that tuned into uh last week's uh show, we had a caller who uh may or may not have uh poisoned uh himself, his girlfriend, and her friends. But I'm glad I'm here to report. Uh so the issue was uh they had foraged for wild carrots, which is incredibly dangerous. Don't do it unless you know what you're doing.
+
+[12:12] I mean, if you know what you're doing, it's fine, but if you don't know what you're doing, it's not like a it's not an am that's not an amateur uh foraging sitch there, uh the wild carrots. And then at the same time, they had drunk questionable, smelly well water. So these are two, these are two mistakes. But uh I am extremely happy to report that uh it was the well water people and that uh you know they all went to the hospital and everyone's okay and you know nobody nobody died. Uh a little bit of dehydration because you know the well water, it goes in, but it also comes out along with the rest of the water in you boom.
+
+[12:48] So the uh so yeah, so you know, it had to be on IV fluids there for a little while, but apparently everyone's okay, and we're super glad to hear it. I had some people uh have people asking me actually in person and also on Twitter, like, hey, are those guys okay? Yes, they're okay. But be careful if you're gonna forage for um for wild carrots. All similarly though, seriously, with mushrooms, like uh you gotta know what you're doing.
+
+[13:10] I or only hunt for mushrooms that have no poisonous look aliks because once you eat a uh an ammonita, you know, like a destroying angel or something like that, like the you know, the only way out is to get a liver transplant, which is kind of unpleasant. So there you have it. Oh jeez, live a transplant. So listen, we have some questions from um So yeah, you know what the only truffle oil they had? White truffle oil.
+
+[13:35] The stuff uh you know, and I had to buy a whole bottle, Nastasia, for fifteen freaking dollars. Do you know like wow, how the heck am I gonna go through a whole bottle? I'm dipping a little bit in a Q-tip. You know, it's like a waste. Does anyone out there want like, you know, when I'm done, like the rest of it, maybe you know what we should do?
+
+[13:50] We should just keep mailing this bottle around from person to person, training dogs until like, you know, the entire the entire country is trained off this one bottle of white truffle oil. Yeah, that's a good idea. You know, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Or or else like to punk someone, just pour it over someone and run.
+
+[14:09] You know what I mean? It's like I I told the story, like I have a really bad history in my house of uh flavored uh oils, obviously. I told the wasabi oil one, right? Where Dax so my pantry right has all these bottles that are lined up and Dax, who's you know, he was maybe nine or ten at the time. He uh he you know, the kids are careless.
+
+[14:27] Kids are freaking careless. They uh you know, they they say everything's an accident, but really it's that they're careless, you know what I mean? So he knocks a he knocks a bottle over and I hear the psh, I'm like, what's going on? What's you know, and then I hear, Maya, 'cause he like he had gone down to look at this wasabi oil, and the wasabi oil just goes in like, you know, almost like, you know, like a a wave of of death smell just like goes into his eyes and nose. Oh man.
+
+[14:55] So anyway, so I have a really bad history with that kind of stuff. Or like, you know, spilling some nasty, like, you know, like super green parsley oil or like super green. I told a story on air, I think, where like my Miley, my uh sister-in-law, uh, when she her first date with Wiley Dufresne was over at my house and I dumped an entire banyacauta like anchovy oil on her. So like just if you come to my house and there is some sort of extremely pungent or extremely colorful oil nearby, run. Just run.
+
+[15:27] 'Cause like it's gonna end up on your on your new dress. It's gonna end up in your eyes, uh, you know, up your nose, anywhere other than where it's supposed to be, is where it's gonna end up anyway. Yep. Yeah. I was like my uh my phone decided that I didn't want to actually uh read the questions that people asked.
+
+[15:46] Here we go. Okay. So uh we had a couple questions from last week I need to get to. Uh Alex wrote in, I don't think I got to this. Uh hey uh Dave, Nastasia, um it says Jack.
+
+[15:56] No more Jack. It's David now. It's David. How are we gonna get sorry, guys? Are we gonna keep you uh separate from me because you're with the id and I'm the Ave?
+
+[16:04] Um Yeah, I'll be the ID. You'd be Id. And you'll be the ego, remember that? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[16:10] Uh anyway. Um the question was uh let's see. I've been wondering if you guys uh still have a link to the plexophonic cover of Vicious Vicious Vodka from episode 99. Do we have that, David? Did Jack stash that somewhere on the uh what what is it?
+
+[16:25] It's the vi the Vicious Vicious Vodka cover that uh that you know that we open the show with sometimes. Uh plexifhonic. We opened with this this time. Yeah, but he he wants a link to download it, I think. Oh, okay.
+
+[16:37] I'll see what I can find. Yeah. I think maybe we put it up once on episode 99, and then I don't know if it's uh I don't know if it came back. Anyway, now to a more cooking related question. I'm trying to figure out a good way to steam items quickly.
+
+[16:47] I'm not sure how restaurants usually steam. Is there some sort of turbo steaming device? Well, yes, yes, there is. Um but I have a flat bottom walk that I tend to steam things in, such as fish. Would it be better if I use a large cast iron pot uh pot of sorts that has a heavy lid?
+
+[17:03] Thanks, Alex. Uh so here's here's and he wishes Jack good luck on the tour, which is nice. Jack is not there yet, right? He's leaving pretty soon. Maybe he's there.
+
+[17:11] I don't know. No, not yet. Uh I'm sure he'll tell us what's going on. He probably won't. The uh I'm just kidding.
+
+[17:17] The here's the good news about uh uh a a walk. The the one of the good reasons to use a walk when you're steaming, one of the bad reasons to use a walk when you're steaming is if you leave the water in there, it can uh you can have some rust issues if it's not really, really well seasoned. And even if it is, it can be a little bit of a pain in the butt because the you should have, I hope you have a carbon steel or cast iron walk and not a uh stainless walk. But anyway, but the real the good news about what makes a walk a good steamer and what makes a wok also for that matter, uh you know, a passable fryer, is that uh it expands as it goes out. So when you're frying, you want the the that expanding lip because when you add stuff to uh oil, it tends to bubble violently, and if you have a straight uh walled pan, it's very easy for the uh the stuff to overflow, which is terrible.
+
+[18:07] Now, the the bad side about a wok for frying is is that unless you have a very good ring, you have to make sure it's a hundred percent stable, a hundred percent stable, because an unstable wok with oil in it is very, very dangerous. This is one of the reasons that I prefer to use uh the Cantonese style walk with the two little handles on it, rather than the walk with the big handle that you can pick up and flip and uh to do stir fry with because what a freaking nightmare if you have a wok full of oil that's hot and some ninkao poop comes up and like elbows the freaking handle sticking out of the side of your wok and dumps oil all over a lit burner and you talk about like running around going, my imagine like burning oil like everywhere, right? So I don't recommend using a wok with uh a long handle on it uh for that kind of work, but I do use um the rather large, relatively and have a very stable wok ring, uh those things uh for frying, and I uh you know, and I feel I feel good about it because they're not gonna overflow on you, which is one of the main dangers because people always tend to over over um overfill their frying stuff. Now, the flip side of that is that um the the worst thing that can happen when you're steaming is well, you don't have enough power, you're puny. But the the other two things that suck about steaming are one, your steaming implement, whether it be baskets, you mean by the way, in commercially they just have large cabinet steamers uh and they either work on a drawer, they have drawer steamers, and they also have steamers that you open like a combi oven, and it's just rack after rack, and you put it in, and they take fantastic amounts of power and they're freaking awesome.
+
+[19:38] Some of them can do under pressure, you can pressure steam stuff like lobsters. Uh some of them have they have dedicated boilers, some of them they're freaking sick, they're amazing. They steam like a mammajama, you're not going to get one. So the problem then if you're doing steaming at home on on you know, on top of, and they make little, you know, kind of electric steamers, but I think they're kind of like, you know, whatever. They're like whatever, you know, what's what ev.
+
+[20:00] But if you um if you're steaming at home, one of the problems is trying to get a good seal between your the vessel that you're using and um the steaming thing. So I have the bamboo steamers, I have a whole bunch of them. The problem with the bamboo steamers, by the way, is that uh if you don't let them dry right, they mold, which sucks, you know, and mildew and mold, which sucks. But they make stainless steel ones, they make a bunch. But the problem with those is is they have to fit fairly well in your in your thing, or you have uh steam shooting out of the sides, which it sucks.
+
+[20:31] So the great thing about a wok is that you have uh those sloping sides, and with the sloping sides, it can fit various sizes of steamer basket uh relatively easily. The other cool thing is that as the water boils in a wok, right, uh you know, i i it takes a lot of time to boil the upper layers because it you know it keeps concentrating uh down. So it's harder to boil a wok dry without noticing because of the way it's it slopes down. It always has that little kind of bit of water at the end. You have time to fill it up, and when you do fill it up, it fills up out, and so you have a big surface area, and you have you can f anyway, you you you kind of get the drift of what I'm saying.
+
+[21:12] One thing I will say about wok steaming and steaming in general in tiered basket systems as opposed to in a big machine with doors or drawers, is that there is a very l uh large difference in uh the steaming time uh and the characteristics between the bottom basket and the top basket. So I don't really like to steam more than three baskets, and even when I do, sometimes I'll swap them around. You know what I'm saying? Is that uh what do you think, Stuzz? Good job.
+
+[21:36] Good job. All right. I never know. Am I talking too much? Too little.
+
+[21:42] Yeah, yeah. But yeah, all right. Oh, and don't worry about the lid. The lid's not a big deal. Steam has to escape anyway.
+
+[21:47] What are you trying to build a bomb? You know what I mean? Like it has to be tight enough that like you're getting good circulation and that you're not like, you know, uh having a place where the steam isn't isn't traveling to. But I wouldn't worry about like getting some super tight-fitting lid. I think that's just mumbo jumbo.
+
+[22:01] But you know, whatever. Someone can get back to me and tell me that I'm wrong, I'm a bad person, etc. etc. Um John Vermylan wrote in a long time ago about fruit trimmings. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer.
+
+[22:11] I'm gonna toss this out to the community, and I'm sure that someone will tweet her in a thing here. I'll read the question. I find that I'm generating a lot of trimmings while preparing summer fruits, particularly in trying to make things clean, in quotes, for my kids. Think stone fruit pits, melon rinds, mango pits and skins. Same things for apples and pears in the fall.
+
+[22:28] I'm all for gnawing on a pit or skin to get that last bit of fruit, but there's only so much one man can handle. Last summer I threw a bunch of cherry pits, each with uh a bit of fruit attached into a mason jar, covered it with red wine vinegar, and forgot about it in the back of my fridge for a year. I finally cracked the jar open last week. It was delicious on its own and became even better when reduced with sugar into a syrup and drizzled over some good cheese. What do you think about the word drizzled, Nastasia?
+
+[22:53] Fine. I don't mind it. Yeah, David, you got any problem with the word drizzle? No, no problem. All right.
+
+[22:57] You know why you don't I I think I haven't I think I'm okay with it because it reminds me of everything Snoop Dogg says. Oh wow. I just think of a spring rain. Yes. Oh, you think of spring rain?
+
+[23:07] I I think of Snoop Dogg smoking a giant like giant blunt. Anyway. Um drizzle over some good cheese. Any other uh ideas for good culinary uses, uh any risk of extracting too much amygdalene slash cyanide and that's poisoning my family. I doubt it, unless you're using exclusively, you know, like um I mean they people make peach pit uh I mean sorry, uh uh um cherry pit uh liqueurs and stuff like this.
+
+[23:34] But if you were to crack them and boil them, you probably could, but uh I wouldn't worry about too much. Non alcoholic ideas are especially welcome. Someone, you know, uh we did a whole thing on that. We've got a search because I had to do some research on it. I think I asked McGee about it.
+
+[23:46] Um I would get the to get the book on shrubs and look at uh uh, you know, I think Deech is uh the author of that, right? Is that how you pronounce it? Uh and uh because you you can make a lot of really good shrubs or flavor um fruit vinegars or make your own fruit vinegars with it. Something where you're like you're gonna soak it for a long time. And there are a lot of like I say, non alcoholics, so syrups, vinegars, uh, and you know, shrubs, which are basically syrup vinegars, which you can then use in sodas or to drizzle on cheeses as you desire, but that's gonna be that's the only thing I can um that's the only thing I can reliably um think of.
+
+[24:23] I once made an apple I once made try to make an apple sauce out of just peels, but it was kind of nasty because it was all just like chopped up peel. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? You know that chopped up peel texture? I was like, I'm gonna make a sauce from this, and then I ate it. I was like, you know what I don't want to do?
+
+[24:37] I don't want to eat this. Like the te the texture wasn't right. So I just didn't want to I didn't want to deal with it. But anyway, I would I would uh I would try that. I think it'll work.
+
+[24:46] Lost peel sessions. Lost peel sessions. But anyone else has a good oh nice, I liked it a lot. If anyone has a good uh s you know, something for uh John to do, uh, you know, tweet it on in or or do it on the uh on the chat rooms. Hey David, is it true that those chat rooms are only available live when the show is running?
+
+[25:02] No, it's uh 24 seven. But I mean people tune in only when the show is running. Yeah, all right. Well, but if someone could leave an idea now and then the next time the show is running, someone could come in and look at it and be like, Oh. Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[25:15] Hey, we got a caller, you want to take that? Yeah, sure, caller, you're on the air. Now he is. Uh yeah, hi, I have uh question for uh cooking issues. Nice.
+
+[25:24] Here we are. Oh. Went directly onto the air. Yeah, see, or we're we're slick like that nowadays. True.
+
+[25:35] So this is Patrick calling from Brooklyn. I'm following up about the hams upstate from a few months back. Oh, what happened with them? Well, so I eight hams and they were equalizing. Uh one got attacked by um by uh skippers, which I guess is just a euphemism for maggots.
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+[25:54] Well the yeah, but they're fast. You know what I mean? Like they they they they invade fat I mean, like look, any fly larva is a maggot, right? Yeah, I guess, because I uh it only affected one ham. Yeah.
+
+[26:07] And I'm not sure if because that one didn't cure properly to begin with. Was that one less salty? It was it was always squishier and it didn't seem to be taking the cure. Huh. So I I was I'm wondering if that one somehow, you know, mi you know, was just rotting flesh that attracted it to begin with.
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+[26:27] Was it a different color? Was it like PSE or anything? What was that? Was it a was did you did was the color of it fine? Was it a PSE uh raw hand to be given like pale soft uh exudative?
+
+[26:38] Yeah, it was everything looked okay. It's just you know, this is all new to me. Right. Just sort of did it on math to try it. So I'm not really sure.
+
+[26:47] Okay, so d did you consider that one a full loss, or were you able to trim it? I tried trimming it, but then I separated it from the other one and then it seemed to be completely subsumed and I just I kind of at that point seemed it seemed a full loss, so unfortunately. But I have the other seven ones intact and um have delayed hanging them to A's. They're actually just sort of in in holding in a in a fridge for a couple of weeks before I get a chance to actually hang them. And I was wondering at this stage, am I would it make sense to envelop the whole painting place in a mosquito net or something to stop flies?
+
+[27:34] I don't think that that's gonna stop mites, but I just is there I'm I'm now concerned that I'm gonna have future losses due to to skippers. Well how old are I uh like aren't you like uh it's been a while. You should look at uh Dr. Norman Marriott's have I already directed you to that Dr. Norman Marriott who used to work at uh he's now emeritus at um I think it's Virginia Tech or something.
+
+[27:58] Yeah, yeah, the bag, the bag method. Yeah. So there's but, you know, aside from that, I think he has relative stuff on the on the pests. I think like I I can't remember. My memory doesn't uh work like it used to, but aren't you past are you past the skipper error like era and are aren't you into kind of beatles now?
+
+[28:15] Isn't that your big uh Yeah, yeah. Well so it seems to be I have so I have that. I have the um the Fidel Pouldra or however you say his name. Yeah, Fidel Soldier's book, yeah. And there's very little on skippers, but they all seem to say that it affects it in the early stage.
+
+[28:31] So my guess is that this one there was some botch and a cure, and it it effectively was wrought meat while the other ones secure took effectively and are sort of onto the stage where the other pets doesn't are are the concern. Right. I think right yeah, right now my guess, right, you're way past equalization. You're into you know early summer and you should be you should be getting like a decent amount of water loss already. Like I don't know how much of your green weight you've lost, but um I think it's it's probably around thirty percent.
+
+[29:02] Unfortunately I I wrote the the the the weights on the bags and elsewhere, but then I heard they got so saturated that I lost track of which ham was which. So it's not completely accurate. But I think it's around thirty uh few if you've lost the highest twenty per I actually I don't think it's a high thirty percent yet. I don't have the numbers in front of me. But it's it's fairly significant.
+
+[29:21] Yeah, if you've lost that much weight, right? I'd again like, you know, I would just look it up uh or have someone chime in here. If you lost that much weight already, like that's almost uh you know, I I I it's a again it's been a long time in the regs, but I think you know, like most, you know, folks are aiming around like even twenty five for like for moisture content, not for aging, for for saleability. And so I would guess that s you know, you're not gonna have like uh a skipper blowfly problem at this point, but you will have mites and you will have beetles. Um have you smoked them?
+
+[29:55] Are you gonna smoke 'em at all? Not smoked, so I mean, 'cause like, you know, a lot of times like just putting like a low like a low bit of smudge down for a long period like w when they're first out in the open like that can get any of that last tackiness off and the bugs won't grow in that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I'm thinking that for the long term aging it's just gonna be in the 'cause this is loosely the uh palbo trolley um method. Well cooking by hand, old school.
+
+[30:21] Cooking by hand. Yeah. I mean it's it's loose loosely. Um so this would be just smearing with the lard rice flour mixture and maybe adding black pepper um and then having it in a stock net. So that's still the the plan.
+
+[30:37] I'm just you know, it's obviously you lose you you're gonna lose some of these when you're trying this out, but it's still it still sucks to lose one. Right. I mean the look uh like I say, like I've hung uh not my own, I've never done my own, but I've hung a bunch of people's hams for long, long periods of time and you know, the the only I've never run into uh maggots of any kind in a in a ham that had you know that's already lost its weight. I've run into I've run into uh having it not cure all the way down to the bone and getting taint along the bone, which is nasty, but the ham is still salvageable. I've had many, many problems with mites and I've had many problems with beetles, but um never with um never with maggots.
+
+[31:19] But you don't want those those freaking beetles boring holes in your in your ham at the at the at the line between the fat and the it's just nasty. You just don't want that, you know. Um But leaving before before sealing it for the aging wanna just use a blow dryer or something to dry the surface of the stuff that's been evaporating. I don't know, man. I wouldn't hit it with a blow dryer because you might you don't want to case harden it any more than it already is.
+
+[31:43] I would so even if it's a little that it's okay to seal because it's pr that's you're creating a permeable coating semi-permanent. Right. Once you've once you've lost the amount of weight you want to lose, right, then sealing it's gonna prevent like gonna at least slow further um further moisture loss and presumably, right? Presumably, uh, you know, the moisture level over long periods of time will equilibrate throughout the throughout the ham, assuming that assuming that you know there's not a a face section that's open. Once you have an open face section of meat, you're just gonna have moisture is constantly going to leave there preferentially to uh the other areas of the of the ham over by the you know where the the skin and the fat cap are.
+
+[32:30] And so you're you always gonna have, and if you've cut into any, you know, American hams that aren't aged, or even the Italian ones that are covered, you'll notice that the the face section of the ham is ex like much darker than the the rest and drier. Uh and sometimes can have that back of your mouth like over kind of cured taste just because it's been dehydrated so much. Yeah. And so um, you know, I think you know, once you get it down to the moisture loss that you want, and you know, you can also press up on top on that kind of cushion area, and you can see if it's still spongy up there, you know you need to get more moisture loss there, but if it's hard enough on the face section, I would still coat it and let it kind of equilibrate over time. That's what I would do.
+
+[33:10] I'm not like I say I'm not an expert in the actual functional I'm an expert in eating hams, right? But uh in the actual functional making of it, I'm not, but that's my guess from my kind of my reading and dealing with other people's hams over the years, you know? Okay. That's I you know, like I said, this is the link we should have didn't want to wanted to try more than one, so have have a lot of a lot of them still to experiment like. Do you have a do you have a coring device?
+
+[33:37] Uh it's actually gonna be in a garage. No, I mean do you have like a tester, like a coring tester? A what sorry? So like so like uh or you know, what people do is they take like a like a an ice pick, right? And you shove an ice pick, now you gotta I would sterilize it and whatnot, and you know, obviously like, you know, take this, whatever, but like old timers would take an ice pick and shove the ice pick into the ham and then pull it out and smell it, and then they could get an idea of what was going on on the inside of the ham.
+
+[34:06] Yeah, so I mean I think that that's a plan one once they're hanging for a few you know, legitimately aging for a few more months, 'cause it's sort of this process has ended up being pro slightly more prolonged than I thought of just getting getting the aging going. So think that is there any point in doing that till they hang for a few more months? No, unless you're worried that they're spoiling. If you're worried that they're spoiling or that you have taint or that they're not dehydrated enough, you'll get an idea pretty dang quick, you know, based on whether the thing comes out smelling sweet. Now on the other hand, you are providing uh an entry for uh other bad things by doing it.
+
+[34:41] So, you know. Yeah, that's sort of a trade off. Uh I think that the other ones they seem maybe you know, they they have the right they seem to feel okay. You know, that's these sort of you know, they're they're not the best clues, but they they don't seem to have the problem. The one that got affected did in the first place.
+
+[34:58] So I think I might want to wait a few months on those. Alrighty. And uh am I permitted to ask the second question or are we on a one alone? Well, Nastasia not really, Nestan's. Go ahead.
+
+[35:11] Yeah, yeah. Am I gonna get kicked off the air then? No, I just I think a super quick question is that cast iron and induction. I've been fooling around just with a fairly cheap induction burner in my apartment because my stove is horrible. And I pretty much get how it works on thin gauge material.
+
+[35:34] But I'm just thinking how to approach cast iron, it's sort of with a with a with a gas burner, you crank the heat up, but you can wait for a minute for it to get really hot once it has all this you know the stored heat capacity. How is this different or the same on when you're cooking with induction with a with a thick cast iron or any other sort of thing to implement with high heat capacity? That's a good question. So what I would do is this. Um induction burners, like uh, you know, like uh uh we I was gonna talk last week, I didn't really get a chance to talk about too much about the new the new Breva one, but I've used the inexpensive ones for you know a long time.
+
+[36:15] And I would put your cast iron on it, put a dusting of flour on the bottom of the pan and turn it on and then see where the burn marks are. So even if you're cranking a full eighteen hundred watts into your induction burner out of the wall, you're still only looking at something that's like twelve to f I forget, it's somewhere around twelve thousand to thirteen thousand, something like this BTU is equivalent of gas, right? So you're not gonna melt your your cast iron down, right? Now, some of the cheaper induction burners don't have enough cooling on their electronics, and if you overheat the surface, they'll eventually crap out on you, but I don't think anything dangerous is gonna happen. But the truth of the matter, I mean the fact of the matter is that i because it's heating the metal directly, cast iron is not a very fast conductor of heat the way that um aluminum is, right?
+
+[37:04] It's just doesn't so you're gonna get a lot of localized hot spots. So with an induction thing, you're probably uh better off, like kind of you can wait a long time and then it will equalize, right? Or you can crank it up uh like you can crank it up in kind of uh increments up and then try to get it uh even. But you'll notice that you can I've done it, you can kind of very clearly see where the actual induction element is in a cast iron thing just by sprinkling sa uh flour down and and letting it come up. And I and I kind of recommend doing that.
+
+[37:37] And then as a second thing, just to get a feel for what's going on, especially because it, you know, it's gonna depend on the thickness of your cast iron and how wide it is, etcetera, etcetera. Put the cast iron on, put it on like let's say medium high for like, I don't know, like four or five minutes, five minutes, let it kind of equalize, and then dust the flour directly on top and see whether you get an even scorching pattern, do it under a hood, or whether or not it uh you still get like really black marks uh around where the element is, and you can get a feel for kind of how but it heats the the answer is is that the metal that is actually being heated directly by the induction unit heats very quickly, and then you still have to wait for that heat to transfer out to the other sections. And then once the entire thing is hot, uh, you know, you have to there's a certain maximum rate at which you can dump heat from the part where the uh induction units are out, and that's gonna determine how hot you can evenly get it. But I'm assuming that once it's really hot, uh even when it's cranked, eventually it'll it'll even out. But I've never actually run the full test of a full cranked cast iron for long periods.
+
+[38:44] Interesting. And do you think that that with induction, that you know the difference between the saute pan shape and the soft pan shape, is that relevant when you're with induction since you're not actually the heat isn't going up the sides? Um well, I mean, uh those kinds of things are relevant in certain kinds of applications, right? So you're not worried about capturing gas flames as they come up out of the sides, but y the evaporation patterns will be different. So if you have a lot of liquid in one pan and it goes down, right, you you'll uh you know, y it's like they used to make pans specifically for reducing sauces that they get smaller and smaller as they go down so that you don't get in a situation where when you're trying to reduce something down to a small volume, you all of a sudden have something that's like, you know, like half of a millimeter thick and then it scorches instantly, right?
+
+[39:35] So also the si the s the shape of a side of a pan in anything that you're gonna move, i.e. hand flip or toss, is obviously crucial. So the sides of your pan still make a a difference in kind of what kind of techniques you're using and w why you're why you're using what you're using, but they don't make any difference as to kind of heat channeling. Interesting. Well, actually, that's a lie.
+
+[39:58] So like certain uh so for instance, uh heat will transmit differently in a smooth in a smooth uh walled thing that curves up than it will if there's a sharp break, right? That's also true. But these are th but it's not gonna be because of uh because of convective currents of gas going up the sides. It'll be through conduction of metal through you know, through the metal itself, which will also change with an abrupt bend, I think. But you you know, you have to test it.
+
+[40:25] Okay. Well this is this is it this is this is super helpful and thanks for uh for taking two questions at all monopolize any more time. Alright well look uh you know come call back in later and let us know how the hams turn out when you test the first one. Okay. Alright cool.
+
+[40:40] Kieran wrote in I recently bought a pasture raised pig and opted into keeping all the scraps in addition to the meat. As part of this I was wondering if it's possible to approximate tonkatsu broth with just the bones and skin. In my head I feel like the bones would provide a good amount of flavor while the skin could provide body but it's all theoretical at this point. Additionally a while back you mentioned that there's a good porky and bad porky with regards to the skin so do you think this would contribute adversely to flavor? Hey Nastasia let 'em know what uh let them let 'em know what that giant vat of boiling pork skin smells like well how about beaver tail oh my god beaver tail a boiling stock pot of beaver tail is like that but but a boiling stock pot of like just just pig skin is like you're just like wow that's a boiling stock pot of pig skin right and so like you know what we what we would do with all the pig skin was um we would take the uh pig skin we would boil the crap out of it in in in salty water then pull it out let it uh let it cool because otherwise it you can't hold it it just breaks apart then we'd scrape all the fat off which is also disgusting then we would uh cut it and dehydrate it uh and then you deep fry it that's how you make pork rinds and the pork rinds were delicious but anyone that had actually been involved with the boiling and the scraping would have to wait like a week before they wanted to eat the pork rinds because of the stank of the uh of the boiling uh the boiling what's it called the boiling pig skin and I have to say a similar thing like with tripe if you've ever done like a lot of preparing of tripe and then you have to wait at least I have to wait a little bit after I deal with it then you know before I like really want to like tuck into a giant thing of tripe.
+
+[42:27] But similarly to tripe a really good use for um pig skin is the uh well I'm gonna say it like you know uh I guess in Italian it would be bracciole but like you know as they say you know up in Boston a brajole. So like when you're making like the tomato sauce uh you know the Sunday the Sunday sauce or gravy as they call it up in uh up in um Boston uh you know they would typically they would use actually the meat brochol but you know classically you would add rolled pork skin so the same way that you do with the meat ones you you lay it out you put in the herbs and the cheese uh and you know the salt and the pepper and you roll it tie the pork skin up and then you brown it and then you throw it into the tomato sauce and you cook it for hours and hours and hours and the stuff renders out in the tomato sauce and something about tomato sauce it's the same thing with tripe like tripe and tomato sauce like doesn't bother you know me and um you know the pig skin and the tomato sauce like maybe it's the acidity I don't know what it is but like uh I I should know but I don't but you cook it there it adds that uncuous character to the sauce and then you can pull that out and you know after you take the strings off obviously you can you can eat it along with the other uh meats that you cook in the in the in the Sunday in the Sunday sauce so that's one thing to do with it. So you can do your pork rinds with it, you can do that. Your question of whether or not you can do the to tonkatsu broth. Um they're gonna pull me off.
+
+[43:53] We should talk a whole thing it's a would a pressure cooker okay. Additionally i this is more of Kiran's pork question. Additionally, a while back you mentioned that there's good porky and bad porky with regards to skin, so do you think it would be uh contribute adversely to flavor? And then would a pressure cooker be a good uh option for making uh a tonkatsu broth? And he points to uh uh Kenji's uh Sirius Eats uh ramen broth, which is what he hopes to put the uh pig skin into.
+
+[44:18] I don't know, man. I mean you could add a little bit because it's there for gelatin, but you kind of want the bones and like other kind of meaty things in there that aren't just uh straight there. And I want to go actually later into a discussion of bone broths, uh this like tonkatsu stuff, which is basically a variation of uh Chinese kind of emulsified cream stocks uh and whatnot, and whether or not it's possible to make it in a pressure cooker, because uh obviously Kenji doesn't believe that it is possible to make it in a print pressure cooker, but for various reasons I think that might not be the case. But I don't have time to get into it. Um I don't have time to get into it today because they're about to about to pull us off.
+
+[44:57] So I still have not gotten to uh the uh chimichuri question, which I'll get to next week, but I have a question from weeks ago that uh I want to get to uh really quickly because uh we got a sad face. We got a sad face on it. Hold on a second. I saw that. Yeah, I don't want this, I don't want a sa sad face.
+
+[45:15] Uh yeah. Nice. Uh so Shai wrote in about Burmese tofu and cheese molds. Hello, I sent you this question about three weeks ago, but you haven't got to answer it as a show ended. It seems like it got lost.
+
+[45:28] Sad face. I hope you have the time for it. Next time. Uh you spoke in the past about making tofu from peanuts. I've wondered if you've tried using other pulses.
+
+[45:35] From what I've read, most don't have sufficient protein content to form a good curd. Is this correct? That has been my experience. Uh I think modernist cuisine, I have to go and look at it again, has a whole section on it, but you know, someone will tell me whether they they do or they don't. But most of these kind of things are more tofu in quotes.
+
+[45:57] So you're making a puree of something or a milk of something. You maybe you add a coagulant, maybe you don't, but then you fundamentally cheat and just set it with agar. Uh another thing you can do with these things is supplement the the uh protein strength with um with uh transglutaminase, me you know, meat glue. But again, I think those are not done traditionally like you would with tofu where you're actually ladling and straining out. The problem with the peanut was that when I strained it wasn't coherent, it just gummed up my cloth.
+
+[46:26] It was a nightmare. So I'm I don't know um whether it's going to be easy for you to make traditional, like you you you make the tofu clouds, you uh you know you get some of the water out by pushing the clouds down, and then you ladle the rest through and let it coagulate. You might need to add an adjunct such as setting with agar in terms of a very soft uh, you know, kind of custard set, uh fake tofu or partial fake tofu, uh, or use something like transglutaminates. But hopefully someone will write in to me who listens to this and say that they have done it and give us a procedure that we can uh do. Um also uh you say have you had any experience with uh tofu, aka Burmese tofu?
+
+[47:04] Not really a tofu since it's made with uh chickpeas and contains solids, but it seems easier to prepare, and I've wondered how does it compare? I've never made it, but uh there's also the um it's basically chickpea polenta, not a tofu. And so you cook the heck out of it like a polenta, and then when it cools down, it sets, and you can cut it, you can do various things. There they also do that. They do a chickpea polenta in southern Italy, which have you ever had that in Stasi?
+
+[47:26] I've never had it. No, I don't think I have. I mean, it sounds good, but I don't have a lot. I tried to get in touch with uh uh Francis Lamb, but he's in Malaysia. He wrote an article on it.
+
+[47:29] He says it's good. Uh I've never I've never messed with it though. And finally, I wondered uh what might be the result of introducing cheese molds to tofu like penicillin rocaforti or uh or whatnot. Will they be able to grow properly and with similar flavors, or maybe tofu just won't keep uh well in the time it takes mold to grow? Uh the answer is it can be done.
+
+[47:53] Someone did it in the 70s. They did a blue cheese, but they had to uh dope the tofu before it was made with uh non-fat milk solids and uh milk fat to get the right kind of flavor textures. I think you need to you could probably do it non-dairy, but I think you need to dope a little more uh and maybe different kinds of protein, maybe even cross-linking it might help, and uh a little fat needs to go in there. But we could think think think more about that. We got a question on Gravelax, we'll get to next time, including Nils' thing on Gravillax.
+
+[48:20] Brandon Bird wrote in about black garlic, and since this people have been asked a couple times, can I can I do this, David, before we uh leave? Take twenty seconds. Yeah, go for it. I've been trying to track down the details on Johnny Hunter's technique for making black garlic in three days, but hadn't had any luck searching through the archives. I know he presented it at Mofad's PH Delicious event, uh, and that the existence has been uh of this technique has been acknowledged, but I haven't been able to find it.
+
+[48:41] So uh Johnny's in and out of cell service, but he sent me this. Uh put the garlic not peeled, either single cloves or full heads, wrap the garlic in foil, then put a damp towel on the bottom of a crock pot and then a damp towel on top. Put the lid on top of the crock pot and then wrap the whole thing in uh a cellophane to keep everything sealed and put the crock pot on high, around 180 degrees, and go for uh at least 24 hours and maybe more, and what and you can test it periodically, see what comes out, and what comes out will be black garlic. That's his techniques. We'll get to the other questions next time on Cooking Issues.
+
+[49:25] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[49:49] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives. I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. I love getting together with people in the industry. I like hosting my show because to me it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious. Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling.
+
+[0:30] Please become a member today at Heritage Radio Network.org. Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England cure-all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:52] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday at uh roughly what? Roughly like what? Like twelve?
+
+[1:15] Yeah, we're gonna like twelve to twelve forty-five, one o'clock, Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Br Brooklyn. Call in all of your questions today, by the way, mead related questions. We have a special mead presentation and dump meal related presentation. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:33] That's 718-497-2128. Uh joined uh as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. Lopez, how are you doing? Good. Yeah, how's your week then?
+
+[1:43] Good. Fine. Yeah. So uh a little later on, your sister, you wanted to tell your sister like my sister's calling in at twelve thirty, she says. She and but so Nastasia, for those of you that are regular listeners to the program, uh I bought her for her birthday a crock pot and a copy of Dump Meals.
+
+[2:03] That's right. Dump dump meals. And uh and so Nastasia can't she's like she after she's like, you know what, Dave? I just can't be bothered. No, my sister has a normal size, a nice normal sized kitchen.
+
+[2:14] I only have one. I bought you a miniature crock pot. But my coffee machine, I only have one surface for anything. So anyway. You can make coffee in a crock pot, but I wouldn't recommend it.
+
+[2:24] Oh, weird. Anyway, and I wouldn't recommend it. So anyway, so go ahead. Anyway, so she's been making dump meals for the past four days. So she like like breakfast and dinner.
+
+[2:33] She'll get she'll talk about it. Natalina, right? Natty uh Lopez is uh the cooking issues dump meal correspondent. So she's gonna be calling now. Nastasia, you said that uh your that your sister doesn't necessarily have any sort of she's not in the food business.
+
+[2:50] No, and she's 22. Yeah, but my point my point. She's been eating cafeteria food. By the way, she's got a boyfriend, you freak shows out there. Got a boyfriend.
+
+[2:58] But if you've been eating cafeteria food, you say your age, it's like, you know. What? No, I'm saying she's so young, like she's only been she's only been out of college for a month. Anyway, so point being she has no knowledge. Right.
+
+[3:09] But I'm not gonna like hopefully she's not listening to this and like get highly doubt she's gonna do it. Good, good. Even though she's gonna call in? She's at work. Oh, where what is she working?
+
+[3:18] Uh Hearst. Oh, so we're gonna get her fired from her first job out of college by having her call in and talk about dump meals. Sweet, sweet. Joined in the booth with uh remember, we're going with Dave Id, as opposed to me. Dave, how are you doing?
+
+[3:29] Good, how are you doing? Doing all right. You have a good week? Very good week. Excited for some mead talk.
+
+[3:34] Oh, yeah, mead talk. So our special guest for today. Uh what? Who is that? What?
+
+[3:38] Who is that? Oh, yeah. It's right there. Uh uh, the engineer, yeah, and Dave's over there. Yeah.
+
+[3:43] We met. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So our special guest today is uh Raphael from Enlightenment uh wines. Now Enlightenment Wines, say say hello. Hi.
+
+[3:52] Hey. So uh Enlightenment Wines, uh why don't you tell a little bit about it? It's actually you have a tasting room here in Bushwick, but uh that's not where the actual production happens, right? Um well it will. Uh I've been making the meads upstate for the last almost ten years.
+
+[4:07] And uh now we just opened a production space out uh off the Jefferson L. So we have a tasting room and we have a beautiful uh facility for making wine. Right now, I did not know this because I'm stupid. The technical term for a like a mead maker is so you are a mazer. Right.
+
+[4:26] It's it's it it's it's helpful that that way you don't have to tell people you make wine, because when you say that they think of grape wine, and that's not really what I do. So and also it's it's um you know when you're a mead maker, you're also an herbalist, you're also a forager. You know, there's a lot to it that's not just in the production space. Uh in the same way like a winemaker often grows the grapes, but you know, they're not necessarily thought of as farmers. Uh so a mead maker has a similar kind of uh broader uh activity.
+
+[4:53] You ever have this happen to you? You haven't I mean you make mead, so you are amazer. So therefore, uh by the way, uh Twitter handle is uh N NY Mazer at NYMazer, right? Or you're right, which by the way, uh I've used about once, and I think it was to contact you. Oh no, well start to start using it, buddy.
+
+[5:08] You know, especially now that I'm not to teach me how to use it. It seems very popular. Uh well, I don't know, I'm not necessarily the best at it. We gotta find like who's a Twitter maniac, Nastasia. You're not.
+
+[5:17] Nobody we know. Yeah, we're like social media dunces. Anyway, the uh the point being that uh this is what happened to me for the past month. Right. So you read all these articles from roughly correct me if I'm wrong, roughly like four three to four years ago.
+
+[5:29] So you're looking at like uh between twenty twelve and twenty fourteen, everyone says the mead's coming, the mead's coming. You have an occasional bottle of mead, usually by one of the larger producers in some of the wine stores. And then when I finally get around to saying, okay. Now the mead that I had when I was uh uh you know young in my twenties was garbage, garbage, bad. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:55] Like I in my opinion, I mean maybe it's the way they wanted it. Maybe they wanted it to taste like it had all sorts of other weird fermentations going on in it and oxidized and messed up and like just not right and like not fermented out. And I think people were going for too much alcohol. But anyway, the me my mead experiences have not been the best. And like a couple of months ago, I was like, this is ridiculous.
+
+[6:14] It's one of the oldest beverages known, right? Yeah, people drank it and drink it for since time literally since time immemorial, right? And also by pretty much every human culture on earth, right? Yeah, anyone that had access to honey, yeah, they figured out some way to make mead. So it's the the short answer is it's gotta be good.
+
+[6:34] That's the the it has to like there's literally there's no way that it can't be good. Something with that kind of a history to it, that it's just the ones that I've had recently are bad. And then uh, you know, I ran into the problem over the past couple of months that now I think a lot of wine stores that maybe started carrying, because I went to some of the places that were on some of those articles from before from the mead explosion of a couple years ago, and a lot of them just aren't caring anymore. So you want to talk about the current state of mead and like trying to get it carried in wine stores and price points and problems and yeah, there's I mean, there's a lot to talk about. I think uh Well, I mean, part of part of the the Enlightenment Wines Project is that it it's largely self-taught, meaning that um, you know, I wasn't uh I didn't apprentice in a winery or I didn't grow up as a a craft brewer or anything like that, and then decide to make mead.
+
+[7:24] And that's partially because I wanted to start from scratch and and really with very few tools, right? So I did it without electricity practically for five or six years, partially to get back to understanding how it was really made initially. And now, you know, whatever, I started making this stuff in 2000, right? So I've been doing it for a while. Now that I look back and I see the um the growth of mead and and who's making it and why uh it's not always been made properly, I think it's pretty obvious.
+
+[7:55] Uh part of the problem is first of all, you gotta think about the people with the resources to make it, right? So they're typically brewers, right? So uh when you make mead, there's um, you know, the equipment involved, right? If you if you come at it with a brewing mentality, you've there's a bad side to it, which is that um it's sterile, you're heating things, you're filtering them, you're doing all this very, you know, brewing is basically pretty high tech uh compared to winemaking. That's bad.
+
+[8:21] It's good because brewers are used to sort of mixing things together and making alcohol out of it. But uh that first part of the process, uh especially brewers who are used to uh from the last 10 years of trying to make increasingly alcoholic beers, increasingly hopped beers, right? That's the American way. Right. So you end up with a very high alcohol wine, which is uh typically sweet, pretty undrinkable.
+
+[8:43] On the other hand, the people with the real resources and the knowledge base to make good mead, which are natural winemakers, right? Which are people who are used to barrels, this stuff isn't sterile, it's very low tech, it's very takes a long time, all that kind of stuff, um, and are used to the fact that every year's gonna be different, that there's vintages, they're not trying to produce a Campbell soup can, right? That in that world, in the mentality of the natural winemakers, a lot of the things that are fundamental to making mead, which is uh adding herbs, adding fruits, mixing things together, uh specifically adjusting the sugar at the beginning, right? You know, you can decide how much honey you want to start with at the end of the day. You mix water and you can dilute it, right?
+
+[9:26] Those things are an anathema, natural wine makers. So the for them, and I'm speaking very generally here, it's a big leap to get into wine making. So what that's done is left a real hole for uh for for the mead industry to have someone sort of step in who's using natural winemaking practices but applying it to honey wine and kind of fruit wines, you know. And you could say the same thing about fruit wines also. I mean, if you go upstate, there's lots of wineries that'll sell you uh, you know, like a dandelion wine, which is like a sugar wine where they wave dandelions over it, I think, or something, and you can't taste anything, or like a really sweet, like cranberry wine.
+
+[10:04] And there's nothing actually fermentable in dandelions anyway, really. It's just a flavor of color thing, right? I mean, you have to add the sugar from something else, anywho, right? Right, exactly. So here's it, here's our dandelion.
+
+[10:14] Oh, I've always wanted to have a good dandelion wine. I told the story, I think a couple weeks, I don't know, months ago. My grandpa made a dandelion wine, he was really proud of it, and I was really young and such a dick that I was like, dandelion wine is like we it's some sort of like weird hick Pennsylvania thing you're making me. And I think you'd be right, actually, because dandelion wines is what's actually considered like a country wine, right? A farmer's wine.
+
+[10:35] So the the history of the dandelion wine is really amazing. Uh, and if you look into it, it's really you'll you're gonna find this in herbalism books, right? So, like most alcohol made for the you know first half of humanity, it wasn't really to get you drunk, it was to preserve plants. It was to preserve medicinal qualities of plants. So uh New England farmers, for example, when they come to New England, right, and they're trying to grow stuff, and you know, they're for the most part don't know what they're doing, and and they don't have any citrus, and they all have scurvy.
+
+[11:06] Everyone in New England has scurvy for like a hundred years between you know January and June, pretty much, right? Is that is that true? Is that actually true? Yeah, because if you're if you're if you do subsistence agriculture, what and you don't have access to and you're not making sauerkraut, right? Which many of them like if they weren't German, if they're English or something, they're not making sauerkraut.
+
+[11:25] There's just so little vitamin C in the system that you know they're eating like grass and stuff in the spring. And so if you have a dandelion wine, which dandelions are incredibly packed with uh iron and vitamin C and all these kind of things, and it's preserved. The tradition of dandelion wine is that in the early spring, kind of right when you start seeing the dandelions, you take a shot of it after lunch or something. It's a tonic. It's not something you'd like to sit around with a snifter.
+
+[11:51] It's a tonic, it's really medicine. So uh, and had all these cura all qualities for it, but you know, really if you look at it, it it's probably just simply that there it's like you know, when you have low levels of scurvy, you start having like you know, it's vitamin C deficiency. You have like you get sick, you get colds and stuff. Scurvy uh like but like the advanced scurvy styles you would like it because it's like uh it destroys the connective tissues of your body, so your teeth fall out, your old wood. You get yellow.
+
+[12:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like a tan but the wrong color. Sweet. Yeah, so anyway, uh good business. You can try some of it.
+
+[12:23] I would love to. Um by the way, what's what's the what now is this a mead base with dandelion in it or this? You know, I usually end with this, but because it's the most bitter, um, it's the most complicated. Like nostasia. Um but uh there's um we can we can start you can start with this.
+
+[12:40] This is the apertif. Now to make this, you have to actually pick a shitload of flowers, right? You can't cheat. So um, you know, and you have about a week to do it in, right? So the bloom for dandelions is tiny.
+
+[12:55] Like they kind of grow all year, but they're really only around for like a week in a big amount that makes it efficient. So is the acidity from it strictly because you let a little acetic stuff happen to it, or is it? Yeah, I mean, you know, honey wine, you have to like people think that mead is gonna be like a single honey mead, right? No, thank you. Um it's makes it's a great uh spritz.
+
+[13:19] Uh they use it at PDT for uh one or two of their drinks. Oh, those weasels are always on top of everything. What's the bottle price on this? Weasels! They're weasels.
+
+[13:25] Uh, wholesale? I don't, you have to get it from us. Oh, so they're doing it illegally. No, no, no, we have a license. Oh, we have a license to distribute?
+
+[13:32] Yeah, I'm a farm winery, so I can sell you a bottle right here. Oh, really? Yeah. Strength. Uh actually, one of the brilliant things about our tasting room is that because we're the first people in New York really to really, I think, take advantage of this.
+
+[13:44] So we've got a farm winery license. So in exchange for the restriction of using New York State ingredients, we are allowed the privilege of be uh of opening a bar next door. Full full liquor bar. You know, we can have whatever we want, we can serve whatever we want. But you can go there, you can have a drink, and if you want, you can buy our bottles right out, right to go.
+
+[14:05] So you can like have a glass of mead, you can go out, or you can you can have a glass of beer for that matter, or any number of the cocktails that we make with this stuff. But the nice thing is you can buy the bottles right there and go home with them. So now what's the what's the the liquid base? What's the sugar? It's honey.
+
+[14:18] Okay, right. So I can feel some of that, that floral hit. You're gonna smell the honey more than you're gonna taste it. How did you get the how do you get the the acid? Is it just from letting it like a multi-floral thing happening?
+
+[14:29] Right. Well, so for so in typically in uh in a dandelion wine, you'd actually use a lemon juice. Um so you know, in general, the honey wines, uh what I was gonna say was that like it's actually very hard to make a mead just from the honey in the water. Uh it doesn't have the tannins, it doesn't have the acids, right? It doesn't have the structure.
+
+[14:47] Also, it doesn't ferment very well, right? Doesn't it stick? Well, if you start with a really heavy ABV and you're trying to make 20%, yeah, you're gonna have a hard time. But I don't typically have that. But it's if you again, if you're using processed honey, which I don't, uh there's almost no nutrients in it.
+
+[15:00] So uh, you know, I'm using unfiltered, like raw honey, it's got pollen in it, it's got bee parts in it. You don't you don't like dump urea in like beer makers do, right? No, no, but sometimes you know what that stuff is? Yeast yeast food? Yeah, I mean, you know, there's all kinds of I mean that's a whole other like new yeast nutrients is a whole nother thing.
+
+[15:18] But um, you know, typically you either need to bring a fruit into it to bring the acid in the tannins, or you're gonna bring some kind of herbs in it to bring the tannins up. Uh the traditional recipe for dandelion wine requires the lemon, lemon juice, um, which I'm not allowed to use until we can start figuring out how to get the lemons out of out of the greenhouse. You need an orangerie, my friend. Right, exactly. So there is, I discovered in uh the park in the cemetery, there is a New England like ic uh orange that will go through the winter.
+
+[15:51] It's this tiny little uh it's called a trifolate orange. Yeah, yeah. And uh those grow here? They do. They're used as a rootstock for other things.
+
+[15:58] Sometimes they grow out, and you can see them. They're like nasty full thorns. It's like full thorns in these little tiny golf ball signs oranges that have no juice. But there's that there's acid in there. We're working with that.
+
+[16:07] I can use sumac. Sumac's delicious, but very highly colored. Yeah, I take away the dandelion. I mean, I love sumac. I use sumac all the time.
+
+[16:14] And it's easy as hell to forage in uh New York. Yeah, so this has sumac in it. We can try that one next. I love sumac. There's something about sumac that's just so pleasing.
+
+[16:22] Uh have you had to pick it and take all the hairs off? Yes. Oh, well, you I don't take the hair. I'm typically making like uh like uh sodas and cocktails, so I don't ever it doesn't sit a long time, so I just I just do basically a quick boil steep strain spin-off and get totally clear. How do you avoid I've had a lot of trouble with sumac enough that like we had a fight this summer and we're not working we're not hanging out this year because it was just I was like killing myself because it I couldn't get the okay, so I would like multiple wash, rewash the same thing over and over again.
+
+[16:53] And then but if I cooked it, I would get this sort of green vegetable flavor, which I didn't like. Yeah, you have to rip out the centers. Yeah, yeah, it's like unbelievably tiny. First of all, yeah, people have you ever never picked, first of all, the reason sumac's not popular, it's incredibly delicious, it's because people are dumb and they're not you're not dumb, I'm not calling you dumb, but like people associate sumac with poison sumac. Right.
+
+[17:14] Staghorn sumac, which is the one that I have growing near me, and there's a couple other different kinds of uh varieties. Well, and also it's super variable, right? So flavor-wise, yeah. So when I forage for it, I have to go bush to bush and taste them, and sometimes they don't taste like anything. I found some stuff out in Montauk that had so much acid on it.
+
+[17:31] They were wet from the humidity and white. Like white, like cream on them. But hairy. No, it was like they were literally citric acid crystals on the outside. I mean, it was like kind of like a marijuana like wet dream, but it wasn't.
+
+[17:45] Of sumac. Of sumac, yeah. So sumac, when you harvest it, there's some smoother ones, some hairier ones, but when you the thing is it looks nice and friendly and pretty, but when you start picking apart, you get this weird greasy feeling on your hands, but I don't know what that's from. And then inside is all this like nasty business. Right, which could have but like bugs, whatever.
+
+[18:04] And then little seedy thing. Not could have, does have. Yeah, definitely. No, I mean it's it's it's it's great if you want to make a cocktail, you want to make a punch. For me, the, you know, when you talk about foraging something, you're talking about like, can I get 50 gallons of it?
+
+[18:18] Yeah. Or not. You know, and so part of uh it's very strong, it's very strong acid. In other words, you can make a good amount with let's say you were to get like a laundry bag full of stuff, which is a pain in the ass. I'm not gonna say it's not a big big big big big, yeah.
+
+[18:31] But that's a that's a quite a bit of sumac as an adjunct. Not as a used it for this year. I'm gonna go back to hibiscus for it because I like it's a little richer of an acid. And uh I did uh I did a three flavor uh soda once that was all red. It was rose hip, all you call New York for uh rose hip, uh hibiscus, and sumac, but I just can't give up sumac because I love it so much.
+
+[18:55] Ooh, listen to that. That's Nastasia's favorite noise in the whole world. I like this. This is called well, this is the night eyes. Uh this is we blew when we open we opened about a week ago.
+
+[19:05] And we've been Oh, congratulations. Oh yeah, thank you. Thank you. Um we just blew through this stuff because we start selling it by the bottle and people just hang out with it, and it's just gonna be a little bit more. Getting all crunched out with it.
+
+[19:16] It's just gone. So what's the ABV on this sucker? Uh like twelve. So you're starting with uh let me see if I can do my calculations, somewhere around 20 bricks or something like that. For I don't know.
+
+[19:29] I have a funny story. So I don't use bricks. I use I use a hydrometer and I probably should use a bricks but it's kind of like when I was a kid like my dad went out and bought us all like uh hockey sticks for because we had a frozen pond and I didn't know anything about hockey so we just all got really sticks. What he didn't know is he bought the whole family left-handed sticks. So I learned left-handed and that's just how I play hockey now if I play hockey.
+
+[19:53] So I use a hydrometer for this if uh you don't know what a hydrometer is you should it's kind of this miracle tool. So like it measures the density of a liquid and it looks like a thermometer. And if as a as the liquid is more thin it sort of sinks and then as it becomes more thick because of the sugar it goes up. It costs about seven dollars the next best tool you can use to measure like the alcohol or sugar content in your uh liquid costs like five thousand dollars. Right.
+
+[20:23] There's like really literally nothing in between that is useful at all. So I I'm a huge fan of these kind of um these very simple tools that are very low tech. You can make a hydrometer and actually I learned recently that in the old days do you know do you know this? What the old I don't know about it. Do you know what the old hydrometer was?
+
+[20:40] No what? An egg well I know and I measure salt brines with eggs. Yeah so they would use an egg and so I've never heard of people using it for liquor though. Yeah no well I mean it's not good for alcohol but it's good for one thing which is measuring the sugar content of the initial thing and they would talk about the the circle that the egg made like whether it was like a half dollar I mean there it's English right so they use pence or whatever but it suckers. Yeah that's yeah.
+
+[21:03] But see, I have a I'm old school refractometer guy. 100%. So I just discovered that thing. It's amazing. What's nice about it is it just takes like a drop.
+
+[21:10] And you can walk around with juices. One freaking drop. Yeah, it's really good. You know what I used to hate? Filling tubes up with stuff and flowing.
+
+[21:17] No, no, you're right. No, no, this you're totally right. So the rack refractometer is really cool. The problem is when you're switching back and forth, people who buy refractometers, especially if they don't think about it, they don't think about what it's actually measuring. See, everyone is using a hydrometer.
+
+[21:31] They know they're really they're just measuring the density. And so when But what if there's like stuff in there? That's what I understand. That's the thing, right? So like you know what you know, right?
+
+[21:39] If you like any kind of any brew or or wine calculator, you can know your initial your initial gravity, and you assume that m almost all of that initial extra gravity is due to sugars, right? And then and then when it when it ferments out, you do the calculation, you do bang. But refractometers don't work that way. You know what I mean? Now there are people that have calculated final gravity.
+
+[22:00] So by the way, there's there's you know your initial or you know, original gravity, and then your uh what do they call the the finished one, the the F I don't know. I don't know. Whatever. And so you you take these two numbers and the second gravity is really a bull crap number, right? Because let's say it comes out at you know one, which zero zero zero, which is theoretically the density of water.
+
+[22:20] What that really means is you have some alcohol and some sugar because the sugar is just out to like 995. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you want more, yeah, you want more alcohol than obviously. So but but my point being is that people have tables where they know what your initial amount of sugar is, and then by reading the final gravity of it, you can figure it out. The problem is refractometers aren't measured that way.
+
+[22:39] So ref refractometer is literally looking and and and the the responses for sugar versus alcohol, I don't know how linear they are over the range you're checking. So literally you have to have someone who just takes a bricks, which is a particular scale, right, measuring you know refraction, because uh all it's measuring is light bending. And then you have to have someone calibrate the the uh the final uh the final alcohol reading based on a particular uh um OG, and that just you just have to pray it's linear in that range. And if it is, you can use it. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:11] And then there's there's also some weird relationship between the two that's not linear. No, there's not no, you just have to tabulate. Which is why I like I just you know, I kind of stick with my thing and I kind of know I mean to be honest It's always good advice to stick with your thing. It's and also your tongue is also the your best weapon, right? I mean, that's the uh you can taste the sugar at unbelievably tiny amounts.
+
+[23:32] And so at the end of the ferment, I I I you the the hydrometer is like gets less and less useful, and then you start tasting it out. You just want to make sure it's not stuck before you take it in. Right, so like this guy, right? So this is a sparkling wine. It's not carbonated.
+
+[23:45] This is made like a pet nap. Um you know, there's still yeast in the bottom. It's uh, you know, you basically ferment out dry, then you you add a little bit of honey or sugar back in, and you continue the fermentation in the bottle. Uh if I was really smart or I was like some old French guy been doing this for 500 years, like I would just bottle it when I knew it had the right amount of sugar in it. But because I don't have access to either that like historical tradition of like really knowing that very you know, when you make the same wine every year, you can kind of just taste it.
+
+[24:15] But uh for me I have to go dry and then go back for the secondary. All right, let's we uh we're gonna talk about this particular uh uh uh wine in a second. We got a caller on the arrow. Is it uh is it a mead related caller? What do we got?
+
+[24:26] What kind of questions we got? Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Hey. Is this my sister?
+
+[24:34] Hello? Hi. Oh, hi now. Yeah, I thought I thought you got to. Yeah, no, hey, you're on the air.
+
+[24:38] So this is gonna be a dump meal. We're taking a mead break. Could you tell me what a dump and your listeners, I guess, what your dump meal is, and and I hope it's something not what I'm thinking it is. Uh well, it all as I like to say, all meals end up as dump meals. But the uh so uh so Nastasi, you want to describe the dump meal?
+
+[24:56] You want Natty to describe the dump meal? It's well, Natty, describe what you've been making. Okay. So I did um four different meals with a crock pot, and I basically just threw a bunch of stuff in that the recipe told me to. It's basically go to the local Circle K, buy some stuff, and dump it into a crock pot, walk away from it, come back and eat.
+
+[25:17] That's what dump that's what it's like. Can I just say stay away from dollar store bacon? Just stay away from dollar store bacon, especially in your wines. But yeah, dollar dollar store mead making. I think I I would pay for that.
+
+[25:35] I mean, a dollar. Okay, I'm just that's my dear. So Natty, what what have you been working on? What what what dump meals have you tried? Um so I did an oatmeal, which I left in overnight, and that turned out great in the morning.
+
+[25:46] I did ginger teriyaki chicken. Okay, how okay, t tell us first of all, oatmeal in a crock pot mean okay. That's gonna work. I mean that's just gonna work. That's oatmeal in a crock pot.
+
+[25:56] Now talk to me about the chicken. What what cut of chicken did they recommend? Um they did chicken thighs and chicken legs. Okay, okay, okay. So some props.
+
+[26:04] It wasn't some jerk with uh boneless, skinless breasts. All right, so it wasn't inherent chicken dust you were making, and then what? Um, and then I had to do like a full can of ginger ale and a full bottle of teriyaki sauce and some other things. Wow, this person likes some sugar there, the full can of ginger ale. Let me ask you a question.
+
+[26:22] Did uh did you have to brown that chicken beforehand? Sorry? Did you brown the chicken beforehand? No, I I just put it in there. I just washed it off.
+
+[26:31] Washed it off? That's our mother's favorite chick. You washed off the chicken? Before I put it in the crock pot. With with what do you mean you washed it off?
+
+[26:39] You wash your chicken? Well I just wanted to make sure it was clean. Anyway, then I also did spare ribs. Wait, aren't you supposed to wash a chicken? No, you don't wash a chicken.
+
+[26:48] Well, but it's got that like slimmy stuff on it. Well, but then that's then that means you purchased a crap chicken. Oh. The uh the uh hold second. Like sometimes you can wash off if there's like bits of blood and you wanna get them up.
+
+[27:00] It's it's not a freaking fish. You know what I'm saying? With like where you're ripping the bones out of it, it's a freaking chicken. It's already been dredged through like the hell and gone. They've already beaten the crap out of that thing.
+
+[27:10] They put it into fundamentally a giant like washing machine made of rubber to rip every dang feather off of it. It's been completely eviscerated and sprayed down. Anyway, okay, hold on second. So wait, so you th this these thighs and stuff, they had the skin on. Yeah.
+
+[27:27] But you in no way treated the skin in any shape, form, kind. You literally threw this thing in with ginger ale and teriyaki sauce. So the dump meal lady's idea of browning the skin was to dump teriyaki sauce into it. Am I s am I s am I on track here? Natty?
+
+[27:45] What? Alright. Like the this lady's idea of browning the skin, the lady who wrote dump meals was to add teriyaki sauce. That was in lieu of browning the skin, right? One sec.
+
+[27:54] Hold on. What? This sounds like it's a nightmare waiting to happen. I mean, I don't know. Uh is there any sort of Are you back?
+
+[28:05] Yes. Is there any sort of sauteed onion or garlic? Anything? What? Is there any sort of sauteed onion or garlic in with this dump chicken?
+
+[28:14] Um, well, there were two different chicken instances, and one of them had onions in it. One? What about this first one with the with the ginger ale? Um, the no. So let me get this straight.
+
+[28:25] It's just ginger ale, teriyaki, washed chicken in a crock pot for like eight hours and nothing else? That's all. Oh, and rice at the bottom. Rice at the bottom. And did you add the rice at the very get go?
+
+[28:39] Um, yes. So that wasn't overcooked at all then? How was it? Tell me how it was. Was it delicious?
+
+[28:45] Did you enjoy it? Yes, I did. You did? What was the texture of the rice like? It was really fluffy and nice.
+
+[28:52] It was almost like a risotto. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nastasi, are you gonna let your sister say that it was almost like a risotto? An unstered crock pot. Listen, listen, listen.
+
+[29:05] What, the chicken? No, the rice. The rice is floating. No, the rice is gonna sink to the bottom. No, I know well it's okay and it's in the crock pot.
+
+[29:13] It's like everything that you, you know, okay what about the other chicken that you made, Nanny? The shredded chicken. That was just with bell pepper and um uncooked bell pepper? That one in the crock pot for it. You throw uncooked bell pepper into with the skin on into a crock pot, okay?
+
+[29:30] Next? And then I think it was just the chicken breast, boneless. Breast, boneless breast for eight hours. Okay, what liquid did you pour into this? Um water.
+
+[29:41] Water. And what else? Nothing else. Wow, how was that? It was good.
+
+[29:46] Oh, and um, I guess like taco seasoning. Taco seasoning. Let me ask you this. Like, when you picked up the chicken, if you allowed it to cool, when you hit it against a table, would it actually like friably shatter? Was it was it like a chicken leather, or did it like was the chicken in any sense still juicy at all in any way, shape, kind format?
+
+[30:07] Or would you have you had to sh did you shred it? I yeah, it was easily shreddable. Yeah, she sent me photos. It looked really good. It looked juicy.
+
+[30:16] And then you put in a taco or what? Then you put in a taco, right? A tortilla? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[30:21] Can't go wrong. Well, why would you ever use breast meat for that? Basically, what you're saying, it's just like the only thing that didn't work were the spare ribs that I had to do. Oh my god. Tell me how the spare ribs.
+
+[30:29] Tell me about the spare ribs. Wait, wait, wait, say what? A normal can of what? A whole can of beer. Whole can of beer, what beer did you choose?
+
+[30:38] What? What beer did you choose? I did like an IPA, but it smelled bad, so I didn't want to do it. And then I think it was like a whole whole bottle of barbecue sauce, too, and it just looked really gross. So I didn't want to do it.
+
+[30:53] But you did it anyway, or you didn't taste it? I mean, like I didn't even cook it. It just smelled nauseating. Wait, how old did how how old is your sister? Twenty two.
+
+[31:02] See, this is the problem with Instagram. They want food to look good. It doesn't always look good. Soup, sometimes don't look good. Well, you know, but the thing is that you didn't give the alcohol time to cook off, maybe.
+
+[31:13] Beer, beer-based, beer-based braises, like for instance, the famous like Guinness uh beef that they uh that the Irish folk make, is good, but not at the get go. You have to yeah, that actually does have to cook uh quite a long time. But the lack the lack of browning disturbs me. Like in these recipes. It's like, I don't know.
+
+[31:34] Anyway, so listen, are you gonna continue? Are you gonna make some more dump meal? Uh you're gonna make some more dump meal uh for us? Are you gonna continue to be our dump meal correspondent? Yes.
+
+[31:42] Alright. Look at that enthusiasm. People call people call in your questions for uh like you know, eventually write in your questions for Natty and her and her dump meals. Yeah. Anything else to add about these dump meals?
+
+[31:53] It really says don't brown these freaking things before you throw them into the freaking crock pot for real. What about the onions you threw into this other thing? Did it brown the freaking onions beforehand? She's gone. Oh, she's gone.
+
+[32:04] She's gone. She couldn't take the abuse. She couldn't take the abuse. She's not used to it like you are, Nastasia. I answered this browning question three times.
+
+[32:12] I just can't believe it. Done. Done. Who does that? Chat room says no browning in dumb meals.
+
+[32:19] No browning in dump meals. That's cheating, right? I think there's a joke in there somewhere. Alright, so let's talk about uh okay. Name this wine that we just drank that you're almost sold out of anyway.
+
+[32:31] Can I have a little more of that stuff so far? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've got three more to go through. So Nastasia, I'm sure you can you like this, right? You can keep this.
+
+[32:37] Really? And Nastasia hates almost everything, and I guarantee you know I know where you like it because it's got some of the same notes that orange wine has in it, right? It's got Oh, well, can let me tell you something else. You you originally asked the question. I actually did a lecture about this called Why You Don't Drink Mead, right?
+
+[32:49] Okay. And you know, the initial question is like uh mead is the fastest growing uh pro uh segment of the alcohol market, right? So that's great for our investors and us, you know. We're like, here we go, let's do it, right? But uh when we look for allies, and it's very different than the uh craft beer movement, which I think you know kind of came up together because there's so much good craft beer that people want to make.
+
+[33:12] Um and there's definitely good mead makers out there, and I can recommend some, but uh part of it is the branding. You know, my I operated like a kind of a club for about five or six years. That was most of my mead went to people who signed up on the email list, so I got to meet them, I knew who them knew they were. Uh one of the nice things about this product is that it's got a really nice gender balance. Men and women tend to like it equally, which is drinkers and makers or just drinkers?
+
+[33:37] Drinkers. Drinkers. It's got a broad age range, it's got a good gender balance, which isn't necessarily true for beer and hard liquor, right? And one of the problems is is that the the uh the branding for a lot of mead is like based on this like really inaccurate mythical Viking axes the super macho stuff super hetero super macho. And I think it really turns off a lot of women who would normally actually like the product.
+
+[34:07] So I I think that would be the third the third kind of leg of the stool of like not how not to make mead um what are your what are your thoughts on the upper east side of Manhattan. I've been there have you have you like have you ever like so like no offense upper east side oh yeah yeah we went we both went to school up there actually I was on the upper west side that's right yeah yes but like the thing about the upper I like no offense I'm gonna say so it's gonna it's like a generalization but a lot of people in the upper east side is like honey so sweet. Honey so sweet right so right I don't want anything with honey it's sweet. You know you how many times at events have you heard people say stuff like that to you mistakes but not honey sugar and honey. But no you're right you know you're right look grape wine is made from sweet grapes rice wine is made from sweet rice.
+
+[34:50] Honey wine is made all alcohol starts out sweet. Bingo and so the you know our biggest challenge is just education. You know we just have to that's why we make dry wines we tell people listen, this this isn't gonna be sweet. It's one of the first things we we talk about. It's why we name the tasting room honeys, because we want to like bring we didn't want to hide that.
+
+[35:08] We want to be forward about that. It's like this is a honey-based alcohol, but honey has a lot going for it that's not sugar. You know, it's got this great bouquet, it has all this different different variability. Um so try this one. This is the this is like what you now, for lack of a better word, the straight white mead, right?
+
+[35:25] You know, like we're trying to work out, talk about, you know. Part of what's exciting about this is uh we get to create the vocabulary for this product class, right? You know, we're trying to position ourselves as making the best meat in the country. So that gives us a position to say, like, what is it? How do we talk about it?
+
+[35:43] What does it look like? What kind of glasses do you put it in? All that stuff. It's really exciting. Big space, big, big open space.
+
+[35:49] Um what I have not been able to do is figure out what how to talk about the mead that we make that's just the honey wine. Because I don't want to say it's straight, because that's got issues, and I don't want to definitely don't want to call it white, right? Because it's you know compared to what uh so but this is and I don't want to say it's plain, because it's not. Be like, look, this is the Chardonnay of uh meads. This is the Chardonnay meat.
+
+[36:10] I think that's all I gotta say to people, listen. Who is Anastasia? What do you gonna drink? Chadi ups. Remember that?
+
+[36:16] Like this is like that is the short thing. Okay, so this isn't the bottle. We haven't uh bought this is on draft right now at the at at Honey's. Uh so we haven't bottled it yet. I'm gonna go upstate and bottle it like in about a week.
+
+[36:28] Um but this is basically what we're serving on draft. Right. Before we before you taste this, we didn't talk what's the what's the one with the bubbles called? Okay, so the bubble is the bubble one is basically it's a sparkling honey wine with apple, cranberry, cherry. These are tart cherries from upstate.
+
+[36:42] A little bit though, right? Only little, I hope. It's okay. A little bit, and then uh uh sumac and rose hips. Rose hips, rose hips are the bomb.
+
+[36:49] Yeah, rose hips are great. So, and then sometimes I alternate the sumac with the hibiscus, which uh depending on what's in season and whether or not I'm having issues with sumac. What do you call that one? That's called night eyes. So it's got uh it's got it like a it's like it's almost got a little bit of that, like not oh not over, but it's got a little bit of that kind of orange winy flavor, even though it's not like a big thing.
+
+[37:07] Yeah, because look, this is this is these are wild yeast. I make this stuff in barrels. It's funky. It's quite nice. Yeah.
+
+[37:13] So this you're gonna taste it more. And what's the uh what's the ABV on this sucker roughly? What are we doing? Oh, pretty much across the board. I shoot for about 12, 12 minutes.
+
+[37:19] I like that. Why would why do people want to make these things that require turbos and it's a macho thing. I really think it's like how it's like let's increase the alcohol. I mean, I don't know. Aroma is intensely honey on this, right?
+
+[37:32] Yeah. Well that's that's you know, it's honey's delicate, right? So you start mixing fruits and stuff, you're gonna lose a lot of that um a lot of the more subtle features. Uh what I like about this is we we ferment this in used red oak, ri used oak, which has like a little bit of a red wine like left over in the wood. So that comes out, gives it a little body and a little color.
+
+[37:53] Well, I like that. What do you think? That's good. And this you're calling this one straight white? Yeah, that is basically.
+
+[37:59] No, no, we call that knot. We call that knot. But it's not really a clock. N-O-U-G-H-T, yeah, exactly. That's our like zero.
+
+[38:04] Have you seen this advertising campaign for it's called like white I think it's like the most offensive thing in because like they're printing the F bombs on the street on paper, but it's called White Girl Rose. It's like everything's offensive about that. What is that? No, it's it's better. It's offensive marketing, is it not?
+
+[38:20] It's by that guy, that terrible man. What terrible man? Fat Jewish. You mean my dad? Uh who is it?
+
+[38:33] That's the guy's name. Yeah. He calls himself. That's what he's called. The fat Jew.
+
+[38:37] Yeah. The Fat Jew, sorry. And he has uh he makes a product called White Girl. I'm sure he's gonna make a billion dollars. Yeah, no, I mean, look, thank you.
+
+[38:44] Well, I uh I'm gonna I'm gonna plug our spot again because we just opened uh we need some folks to come down there and uh check this stuff out. It's at 93 Scott Avenue. Uh you can go to Enlightenmentwines.com. This address is on there. And we're open every day, but Monday.
+
+[39:00] What stop is it? Off Jefferson L. You can walk. It's like you gotta cross flushing. And it's nice, you know, it's a great afternoon.
+
+[39:07] No offense if you're a doctor in that hospital, but oh my god. You're at that hospital on flushing? Yeah, yeah, but we're not that close to that. No, yeah, no, no. That's the other direction.
+
+[39:14] No, no, we're right down here. You could walk from you could walk from Robert's. I had an interesting ER visit there once. I've heard I've heard crazy stories. The doctor actually was good, but the ER itself was like Yeah, well, welcome to America.
+
+[39:26] Yeah. Um, okay, so I want to make sure you try this because it's just a little bit left. Um this is the Floralia, and I want just to give you the sense of a progression. So that's basically like our natural honey wine. What's your bottle price in this, by the way?
+
+[39:40] Will be uh rough. We do 25 on our pretty much across the board unless it's sparkling, or we're just trying to have like a commemorative bottle. So, you know, if it's expensive, I put it in a smaller bottle. That's the deal. Uh but I'd make sure they're all the same height.
+
+[39:55] So, all right. So this one is called Floralia. Now, this is what you do. Now, this is actually a lot of people think the thing you just had is a classic mead. Like, I want a real mead.
+
+[40:03] I heard you wanted a real mead, right? That's all I know. I never listened to your show. I just got it. I mean, I don't know.
+
+[40:11] I I would. I didn't know about it, right? Plus, we're usually very technical. Yeah, that's on the internet, right? So uh but a guy came into the bar and he's like, oh yeah, I was just listening to Dave Arnold's show, and he's like, he just wants a real mead.
+
+[40:21] And I was like, oh, well, you should tell him we're doing this down the street. I mean, you can it's really close. And I think the people would expect that a real mead in quotes would be this kind of like uh single variety honey, right? Because that's a sort of grape wine mentality, right? Like the whole thing about grape wine is uh a single grape from a specific location and time who's like carried through to its sort of essence.
+
+[40:43] Um that doesn't really line up with honey winemaking exactly because I would I really feel like there is a big difference between say a wildflower honey and like a apple blossom honey, right? They're they're different. And when you ferment them out, they'll be di they will be different. What about nasty honeys like buckwheat? Yeah, sure, it'll be subtle, but I didn't want to, but in the real world, m in the history of mead making, let's say, and I I don't really believe in any kind of real authist authenticity around any of this, because it's it's the whole thing's very sort of abstract and vague.
+
+[41:13] But what one thing is for sure, it's that the idea that someone would make a mead and it would just be honey, it's probably unlikely. Uh it doesn't have enough tannin. Uh even the one that you just had is um it's made in oak, right? That's where you get that mead. I'm cheating.
+
+[41:30] You gotta cheat. There's somewhere you gotta cheat. What's more likely is they would have made something like this, which is uh a mead with herbs in it. So there's all kinds of horrible Latin names which I'm not gonna even mention and I can't pronounce. Like methag glue.
+
+[41:42] Yeah, exactly. They're gonna like I'm taking them out of the book. That's all it sounds like Society for Cronative Anachronism stuff. Right, exactly. And again, it's another one of those things that hurts.
+
+[41:49] Do you do that? Do you have like a Harlequin outfit or cod piece somewhere? No, it's it's gone. Like it's gone. It's gone.
+
+[41:55] I mean like I burned that last week. I mean, the the the the real the real issue of I like cod pieces. It's like, you know, the people who, you know, there's a public perception around mead that it's a it's white and it's European and it comes from Vikings and all this kind of stuff. But the truth is is like the people who drink mead are Africans and Indians and Chinese people. Currently, yeah.
+
+[42:16] Yeah, and and have done for their, you know, the hero. Have you gone to Ethiopia to actually drink their stuff? I haven't. Um we're trying to grow uh gesho right now, which is the herb that is required for test, and I can't um get it to start. So uh is there a decent Ethiopian one here in the US or no?
+
+[42:32] Not that I've had. Uh they serve, I know the guy, for example, there's an Ethiopian restaurant in Bushwick that's fantastic. Um they have a honey wine, I don't love it. It doesn't have gesho in it. Um so you have to, if you're gonna have an Ethiopian honey wine, it needs to have this herb in it, or else you're just getting like a kind of another processed mead that says it's made in a traditional Ethiopian style, but it needs the herb.
+
+[42:51] And if the herbs in there, it's gonna gotta be on the label. Uh there are a bunch of strange psych more southern African meads as well, or no? There are a zillion kinds of meads out there. And there are a zillion other things that people do with it. They distill it.
+
+[43:03] I mean, uh, Jamaica has a whole distilled honey wine culture that's super interesting. China, I mean, it's a uh in China, you know, also there's a huge a lot of my influence right now is I'm reading a lot of kind of uh Asian uh herb books because there they use wine uh like to preserve the herbs in a way that we don't do in the European culture so much. So like a chrysanthemum wine or chamomile chamomile chrysanthemum wine. Um right. We our herb wines are mainly they're they've been taken out of the wine category, like removed.
+
+[43:32] So going back into sipping situations. This thing this thing happened uh when they invented the FDA, which is that they they made it basically illegal to have any medical claims on any kind of alcohol, right? So ironically, the the f like the Los Angeles winery that survived through prohibition did so by making medicinal products, and then people just drink them to get drunk. But like I make an elderberry wine. Elderberry is like an incredible immune-supporting antiviral thing.
+
+[44:01] And it will work if you drink the wine, but I'm not allowed to say that. I can't put it on the label. I can't even talk about it. Um but so for example, this one, uh just to get back, this is I think something more like a mead that you would have had uh in in the old days. So this is And it's called what?
+
+[44:15] Floralia. Um and it's it's just an herbal mead. You could pick different herbs. This is uh forage juniper, lavender, and marjoram. Uh lavender's coming out, huh?
+
+[44:24] Hey Mar, we had someone I had someone on Twitter who was like marjoram. And they're like, it's useless. Marjoram's delicious. Fresh marjoram. Yeah.
+
+[44:31] Can't use it track. Why would you dry it? I don't know. People dry a regular. Uh so this is you can drink this straight, uh, but it's a great cocktail base.
+
+[44:40] So, you know, this is like instead of like instead of uh so you would use this in place of like a Dolan Blanc or in place of like uh a Cokey uh Americano or something like this. Well, I I this is where I should probably introduce my partner Arlie Marks, who I think he's met you, he said he did a stage with you at some point, but uh he's running the cocktail program in the front of the house. So he he takes some of these things and then we'll make uh these kind of wonderful cocktails. This uh I forgot what he's doing, like a flip with this right now, which I he had to teach me what that was. But it it drinks it drinks like um it's like a honey vermouth.
+
+[45:13] Yeah, exactly. Um that's a it's a fair like place to place it. Vermith tends to be a little bit more alcoholic. Um I'm starting to make things more specifically for cocktails because the there's so much opportunity to like do all this weird stuff, right? Uh and so typically we'll take something like this or the black currant wine, which is I think the last one here, which you can try, uh, and we'll serve them straight, like in a you know, small pour or over the ice or something.
+
+[45:39] Or you can like this one makes uh really beautiful negroni. Uh if you want to like do uh a named kind of classic. Uh and that's what we've been making down there. And then we also have this really nice herb program for the roof. That's uh like a lot of the exotic herbs that I'm experimenting with for the meads, because we really have to broaden our appeal.
+
+[45:58] Uh we use in the cocktails too, so that's since they're around. So like there's a lemon mint margarine that I'm really not uh marigold, sorry, lemon mint marigold that like they'll use for uh what are your thoughts on herbs that are like now considered toxic in large quantities, but like people still use them in the day, like roux or what's tansies and all these other things. Yeah, elderberry. Uh, you know, it's the the toxic is such a like difficult unspecific word, you know, like our relationship, right, Seth? You know, you know what's you know what's toxic?
+
+[46:32] Alcohol is toxic, you know, and you drink that all the time. I I think a lot of these herbs, um, you know, you'd have to use huge amounts of them uh before you got ill. In many cases, if you heat them, the toxins go away. It's a little tricky with uh alcohol because I have to get federal uh uh permission basically for everything that I use. So there's a list of generally recognized as safe, right?
+
+[46:56] Yeah, yeah. But that list itself includes was created in the 40s and is horrible. Like it's like you can put penny royal. Penny royal is an abortive and really like very toxic, right? You know, used by herbalists very carefully.
+
+[47:08] Fantastic name. Pennyroyal. Yeah. You can pour that in there. So like that's considered generally recognized safe.
+
+[47:14] Lead ice is not on the list. Spice bush, you can't, Lindera benzoin, not grass, so I don't use it at the bar. Right. So I'm pretty suspicious of that list in general. It's not an accurate list.
+
+[47:24] It was made a long time ago. And for example, something like uh elderberry, which is on the list in some cases. It's like it really depends on how you use it, if you're using the stems, the berries, or whatever. There's a really great um article in the Nordic food labs about elderberry where they really try and tease apart the chemistry of that. Yeah, I know those guys, they're good.
+
+[47:42] They have a really good actual um uh science person, uh Ariel, doing a lot of their a lot of their stuff. Oh, they while we're opening this last one. Let me do some shout-outs. Brian Kestenbaum. I'm gonna read this.
+
+[47:53] I'm gonna read. You're gonna read what I'm gonna read here. Okay. All right. Uh where is it?
+
+[48:02] This is from Allison for Brian, right? Uh unusual request. Uh my husband Brian is a fan of cooking issues and listens all the time. Turning 40 on July the 14th, and I'm Bastille Day, huh? Why do you gotta share it with the French?
+
+[48:18] Why do you gotta share your birthday with the French? Makes no sense. And it's not like and his birthday shifts every year to coincide with the French stuff. No good. No, you that's not saying it's no good.
+
+[48:28] Whatever. I'm collecting videoslash sound recordings, photos from his favorite places and people around the world. Any chance they may be able to give him a shout-out on the show uh or send some sound recording that I can add to the collection. Let's do it. What should I say?
+
+[48:44] It's turning 40. Happy 40th birthday, Brian! From Cooking Issues Crew. And Jackie Molecules would say hi if he was here, but he's off on tour in Europe, thinking about your 40th birthday. What do you say, Nastasia?
+
+[48:58] Happy birthday. There you go. Happy birthday, Brian. Wait, how many people listen to this show? Tons of things.
+
+[49:02] I don't know. A lot. And they are they all over the place? Yeah. Everywhere.
+
+[49:05] All around the place. That's so exciting. Everywhere. Hi, everyone. Everywhere.
+
+[49:08] Hello, the world. All right, so let's get back to this. Uh the the rest of the questions that I would have asked, I'll have to do uh to do it. You can just do them like really fast. No, I can't wish.
+
+[49:20] I can't. I can't. I can't never. But let's taste this last one. This last one.
+
+[49:24] Um this is the uh St. Crimson, which is just a this is a kind of a classic black currant meat, which has been made for a long time. That is a kind of classic. But I don't know how much it's like. Does it drink like a like a meeting?
+
+[49:35] Okay, just tastes. So that is also drier than I thought it was gonna do. They're all dry, yeah. There's no sugar. You know, I don't like using sulfites and filtering and all that stuff.
+
+[49:45] So uh the really the only way to bottle something and not uh use them is to just get rid of all the sugar. I can dope this with some gin and carbonate the hell out of it. Yeah, it'd be very good. There's a there's a lot that you can do with this. It's uh it's a great thing.
+
+[49:58] Although uh Jim from PDT was telling me, because when I made this for him a few years ago, I was like, he's gonna love this. This is gonna be great for cocktail. But I think you can get a black currant flavor out of the distilled version at a cheaper price. If you just want that. But this looks nicer.
+
+[50:13] Also, this has that um you know, everyone's into that change of color sweet pea thing these days. But this really butterfly pee? Yeah, and this this in the blue one, people hey man, we've been on that we've been on that freaking train. Woo woo. So those those uh who's using that in coffee?
+
+[50:29] I don't know. There's an article in the paper again. Which article? Which paper? I don't know.
+
+[50:32] I didn't read it. Do they still make papers? The big one. Yeah. Times?
+
+[50:36] Probably. Well, wait a minute, what's fun about this and the elderberries? You know what you know what the butterfly pee is actually called? You know it butterfly is the euphemism for female parts. Oh.
+
+[50:45] Yeah, the scientific name for that f uh uh plant is uh is uh a lady body part of the colour. That's not that's not a yeah, that's not a bad one. Not a bad word. I know. But then why call it butterfly?
+
+[50:57] Why call it butterfly? I'm saying, why can't you say it? Because I don't know exactly how it's spelled in Latin. Methiglium. Um Yeah, anyway, you can change the color of this too.
+
+[51:09] It's it's also super um a acid-based sensitive. So it'll go blue or red. Yeah, but the problem is I'm always gonna keep it acid in a cocktail. Like someone who serves you a basic cocktail should get beaten about the head. I'll tell you this.
+
+[51:21] If you want to stabilize bluer colors in cocktails, do a pre-shake before you add the acid with uh egg white, which is basic. And I found that for some reason, even when you shift the cocktail acidic afterwards, you'll maintain more of the bluer side of anthocyanins than you would. What about like a gelatin? Would that is that also basic enough? No, no.
+
+[51:43] No. Because I want to get this in one of those frosty machines. But you want it to be on the bluer side, not less on the red side? You know, I just like the I just I just like that it changes colors. You know, it just I just it's just cute, you know?
+
+[51:54] I mean, the classic thing to do that is doesn't taste so so bueno, so I used to do this uh uh with the butterfly tea. We were gonna do a an absinthe service where we were gonna do like uh um a pondon water uh and then we were going to uh keep that one neutral, so be on the blue side, and then drop it into uh acidulated uh alcohol, and then it would go red as it hits the alcohol. Yeah, right? In a drip, in an absinthe drip. Turns out that A, it didn't have any flavor, so at least the one I had.
+
+[52:27] So I was like, I can't just do a visual gimmick. This is crap, it's not what I'm about. And two, bars are dark. Right. And so like this is more of a cafe, brunch timey outside thing.
+
+[52:40] Yeah. You know what I mean? So I've done the color change. You know what's really stable with those colors is uh whipped cream. So like it like I've done really, really with a lot of the flour, dark, dark blue whipped creams that are like those things I heavily stabilize them with um actually the flour itself will stabilize it because it's got like if you just blend the flour and don't get rid of all the solids, it's got enough kind of solidity there, but you could also do like an agar fluid gel or something to get it to um get it to go.
+
+[53:08] Um so I didn't get to any of my normal like tech related questions, but I feel I had one. I had someone ask me some interesting questions about spoilage in sous vide bags. There's also a question on flavors melding together, which would have been good, but I'm gonna try to get Harold McGee to write in, uh call in on that. He's still in Spain, being Harold McGee in Spain because he's the master. He's been working on that for you know, oh well, I have a question for him.
+
+[53:30] All right, what's your question? I don't know why, but every winemaker will guarantee tell you this that when you take the wine out of the the barrel and you put it in the bottle, it tastes like shit for like however long it feels like doing that for like at least two or three weeks, even if it tasted good in the barrel, and then it'll come back. Huh. And it it's like it's getting used to the new container. It's like absorp absorbing whatever oxygen got hit in the eulage?
+
+[53:54] I don't know. It makes no sense to me. By the way, so uh before I go, quick questions for people. So like uh so what's your average fermentation time? Uh it's temperature dependent.
+
+[54:02] And like what's the case? Everything you're drinking here is about a year. If I want to be a jerk about it, I could probably push it to six months. That's for like, but like is there do you is it like is it like a primary secondary situation? Do you have to rack off the uh rack, yeah.
+
+[54:16] I mean, it's just like making wine. You you just sit it it's does its thing. You rack it if you feel like racking it. It's closer to wine than to beer. It's almost a hundred percent really freaking quickly like beer speeds, orange juice.
+
+[54:28] Yeah, but doesn't I can make this ferment quickly? I just think it's a good thing. I mean it still tastes good. No, yeah, no, yeah, yeah. Orange juice like on a fat.
+
+[54:34] I don't know why, but it's just like I don't pitch I don't do a hard pitch. I'm keeping it at like 55. But are you putting sugar in it? I take it to well, I want the alcohol. I'm I'm take so sugar.
+
+[54:44] No, but I mean do you add additional sugar in the beginning? Yeah, yeah. So like uh actually the the first batch, I'm on my second batch. The first batch I did white sugar to get it to about 15.5 bricks because I wanted about eight percent alcohol. And so like orange juice by itself would be like six?
+
+[54:58] Yeah, because it's like 11.8% sugar, and uh and i it just wasn't gonna be stable enough for me. And uh and so anyway, so I wanted it closer to eight percent. So I added enough to get it up to 15 uh bricks. Uh and this next batch I did and it fermented out. It did its primary in like a week.
+
+[55:19] But what temperature? In a wine cooler, 55. Oh, cold. Yeah. That's intensity.
+
+[55:23] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I I started it at set at 70 on the counter until it started going. You're doing carboy? Uh yeah.
+
+[55:31] And it was oxygen starved. I put I put an airlock on it from the get-go. Like not even open. Like, and then I threw it in the in a wine cooler and it still fit finished. It was monster fast.
+
+[55:41] Yeah. I don't know why. And I I was pitching at the normal pitch rates, you know what I mean? Do you know what kind of yeast you were using? I mean, you would hate it.
+
+[55:49] Yeah, you're saying. I used to I used I I don't always use natural yeast. But um, but it's relatively neutral. The yeast I was using is relatively neutral. Yeah, no, I mean I did honey this time to take it up to 15 though.
+
+[55:59] Instead, that's better. It definitely tastes better. Yeah. What? One minute.
+
+[56:03] Okay. Oh, all right. Okay, so I'm gonna uh I'm gonna invite everybody to come by. Uh if you come by and I'm there, I'll give you guys a tour. Uh uh and I'd love to see you down there sometime.
+
+[56:12] Really nice. All right. Well, Raphael from Enlightenment uh Wines and give him the address again. Uh our casting room is called Honeys, and it's at 93 Scott Avenue. It's on the other side of Flushing from the L train.
+
+[56:22] Opens at five, right? Yeah, five tonight and until nighttime. We're up and late. All right, well, now I can say that we have pictures. Can I what?
+
+[56:30] Oh, and I would like a few more Instagram followers, Frank. Frankly, I think I have a very nice Instagram. All right. Uh uh also uh NY NY MAZER. No, no, Enlightenment Wines.
+
+[56:39] Enlightened Wines. All right, Enlightenment Wines. I can now say that I've had mead that I enjoy. Nastasia. So thank you.
+
+[56:45] All right, very good. Thanks for coming on. Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[57:08] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member-based nonprofit radio station operating out of Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed.
+
+[0:23] The interviewers are always really well prepared and fun to talk to about the issues that matter to me the most about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage Radio Network by becoming a member today. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org and click on the beating heart to donate.
+
+[0:59] Today's program is brought to you by MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink. For more information, visit Mofad.org. I'm Linda Palaccio, host of A Taste of the Pass. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[1:27] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking It's just coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or one-ish on uh the Heritage Radio Network from Ruby's Pizzeria in Where's Roberta's Pizzeria Anastasia? Bushwick. Bushwick Where? Brooklyn.
+
+[1:41] Where? Brooklyn. Brooklyn! Morning, Nastasia. Good morning.
+
+[1:46] How are you doing? It's not morning. Somewhere it is. Also, we've been speaking since like 745. Yeah, but do people who are listening to this know that?
+
+[1:54] No, they're listening to it at like midnight, somewhere in the somewhere else. They don't know what you've been doing. They don't know your life. This is a con constant radio mistake you make. I feel like they like hearing about our life.
+
+[1:59] Yes, but with context. You would want to talk about the centerfuge. Imagine this. Imagine this. Yeah, we could bring it up that way.
+
+[2:11] Oh my god, can you believe what happened earlier? Oh, and that's all we say. No, because when I say that, then you're prompted to say, well, we've been up since that early because we've been talking about the centrifuge, which you should all know in like how do you how do you pronounce uh the way your your man Trump says it? I don't know. Chiana on the phone with China.
+
+[2:29] Yeah, in fact, that is true. Uh we did a after work their time before our work. See that when you're when you're when you're building something that's 12 hours time zone away, you have to kind of arrange your calls either like early in the morning or like late at night. There's no I guess that's not true. They could arrange it so it's early in the morning or late at night for them.
+
+[2:51] Yeah. Instead, we organize it so it's either early in the morning or late at the end. We like it better late at night. Anyway, this is uh again, people don't care. But we are working on the centrifuge.
+
+[2:59] I had a tweet in earlier asking for updates, etc. etc. The updates are that uh we look, we've had a working prototype uh for some months now, but we're not going to officially release anything until or give a date until we are sure that we have the future production kinks pretty ironed out. Right, Nastasia? But we are we're still planning on doing a pre-order.
+
+[3:29] It's still gonna be under a thousand dollars. You will get a d uh pre-order discount, that's still our plan. And we hope to have it on pre-order somewhere between three and five months before the actual delivery date. And we might have a tiered uh early bird system where the early early birds get it for less than the later early birds, etc. etc.
+
+[3:50] Right? Isn't that our current plan? Okay. Or something like this. Something similar to that.
+
+[3:54] We're not committing to early bird, definitely. Yeah, whether there's levels of early bird, we don't know. But the issue is we're gonna go on uh pre-sales and you're gonna get a discount because you're buying it before it comes out, and what that's gonna do is there's a substantial amount of tooling that we need to make to get it made, and we don't have the cash to front it, so the pre-orders are basically gonna go towards the tooling to get it produced. As for the specs, the specs are going to be that it is um it's gonna hold uh 500 milliliters uh at a time uh of liquid or oil or whatever, but it's gonna have the ability with a built-in pump to pump liquid through the rotor such that you can do more than 500 milliliters at a time. So the most I've ever done.
+
+[4:42] And it depends on the solids content, etc. etc. But the most I've ever done in one shot is five gallons. Uh but obviously that has you know not that many solids in it. I did five gallons of uh cider, I filtered five gallons of cider with it.
+
+[4:54] Anyway, we're pretty excited about it. The whole thing is gonna be smaller, uh well, it's about a little bit bigger than a queas art, wouldn't you say, Mastasia? Food processor, yeah. Yeah, a little bit bigger than a Quisinard food processor, much smaller than like a kitchen aid mixer, right? Easily fits under counter, uh, easy to lift around, move around, etc.
+
+[5:14] etc. You buy them like potato chips, you're not even gonna want one, you're gonna want two, you're gonna want three. Am I right, Mistacia? Okay, our goal is to put in anybody. They ask us, my partners, they ask us, how do you know how many people are gonna buy it?
+
+[5:28] I said, Well, this is how many modernist cuisines sold. Well, we had the number a while ago, but I don't know where it is now. And we figure if someone's willing to shell out five hundred dollars for a book, a lot of these people don't already have the centrifuge. They're gonna be willing to shell out less than, less than. We don't know what the final number is gonna be, but less than a thousand bucks, hopefully as low as we can go, right?
+
+[5:50] And so we're gonna price it as low as it can. But uh less than a thousand bucks to be able to do some of those tricks. And we can do most of the tricks uh that you can do for modernist cuisine. We've tested pea butter, for instance, all these kinds of things. The recipes are different because I'll go more into depth later, but uh I have to rewrite some of my recipes to get them to work in a smaller centrifuge.
+
+[6:12] But that's part of the work that I've been doing is uh figuring it out. And if anyone really cares, they can ask me to do a an ABC's centrifugation on air later in terms of the actual uh science and math behind it, but I don't think that many people care. No, but I never really talked about uh I mean there's a there's a there's a number of factors in a centrifuge. We run into the same problems that people run into with uh with uh things like induction burners, right? They compare watts of an induction burner with BTUs in a gas stove, and nobody really knows how to compare them.
+
+[6:47] So comparing, for instance, something that acts more like a fixed-angle centrifuge versus swinging bucket. The two main kinds of centrifuge that people deal are called fixed angle. Obviously, what that means is that they the liquids are held at a fixed angle in the rotor uh uh as it spins, and the other kind is called swinging bucket, where the the products are in buckets that, as you might guess, swing out when you open it, uh, when you turn it on, rather, and that's and that's how they work. Uh they have the two different kinds of rotors have different characteristics, primarily based on uh the fact that having an angle helps with certain kinds of uh pelleting, i.e. getting solids to deposit and stay solid at the bottom of a rotor.
+
+[7:27] And also fixed angle rotors definitely uh uh usually the uh cloudy bits have a shorter distance to travel before they hit the bottom of the tube. So fixed angle rotors act differently from swinging bucket rotors, but usually swinging bucket rotors have a much larger capacity than a fixed angle rotor, albeit at a slower RPM. So this kind of this centrifuge kind of uh tries to bridge the gap between those two, so it works uh it works at a considerably lower G force than the uh than the equivalent swinging bucket would. Also uh, you know, the the centrifuge, like how well something a centrifuge separates solids out is based on uh uh a variety of factors that are um inherent in the product itself. So the the viscosity, which we work on with uh uh like enzymes like Pecan X Ultra SPL, but also out in the speed of the rotor, which is something I can't change too much.
+
+[8:21] Uh but the the other and the diameter obviously they work in tandem because that's where the force comes from. But the the the big one, the important one that you get to manipulate is particle size. So the um the the speed at which you set the sediment stuff out goes linearly as the force is increased. It goes uh linearly as the viscosity decreases, but it goes uh by uh by the square of the particle size. So you what you really want it, and also the density difference between the solids and the and and the liquids.
+
+[8:54] But so so a lot of my recipes to get the smaller centrifuge to work like a big guy, it has to do with increasing the particle size. So I already went through and went through it. If anyone didn't understand that, which I'm sure is 100% of people because I wasn't very clear, then you can ask me to explain it later at a later date. Be like, what did that guy say about particle size? Like that the truth of the matter is is that a lot of the recipes that I use in uh liquid intelligence for things like lime juice to centrifuge lime juice out.
+
+[9:22] Uh lime juice is more difficult to centrifuge than other things because the enzymes don't fully break everything down because of the extreme acidity in lime juice. And the way that I make that work in a centrifuge, regular, you know, the the bench top three-liter centrifuge that I use at the bar, is uh wine finding agents. And what those wine finding agents do is they is they make the particles agglomerate together, they become bigger. As those particles become bigger, it becomes, as I said, uh, you know, by the square, easier to filter them out or smash them to the bottom of the uh centrifuge buckets. And so uh I do that trick with this centrifuge, and I can centrifuge basically anything so far.
+
+[10:02] They'll you know, a few things aren't as good as the big guy, but pretty much the results have been good, right, Stuzz? Yeah. It's just a matter of making sure they're consistent so that when it shows up at your house or at your bar, you are safe and happy, right? Those are the two main things we want you to be in that order. Safe, happy.
+
+[10:20] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Anyways. So we'll give you updates as as we know them. But like if it doesn't go on, we mean look, we're still hoping to deliver it this calendar, if not early next calendar, but I don't want to promise anything, but if we don't pre-order by the end of this year, I think we're in some serious trouble anyway.
+
+[10:39] So expect that to happen. Right? Mm-hmm. Is your sister, by the way, still on dunk meals or no? Did she do any?
+
+[10:48] I haven't asked her. But she said she was gonna keep on teaching on. Every other week she'll call it. Every other week we call in, so we didn't frighten her away. Did you explain to her that I I realized that she didn't write the dunk meals and therefore she shouldn't feel bad about me insulting the dump meals?
+
+[11:02] Yes. We had a caller, we had a uh uh a question in about the dump meals. Maybe I'll hit that one first, even though we're we're way behind. Oh, uh another thing. Remind me after you come out of break, mozzarella.
+
+[11:11] All right. You cook anything interesting by the way over the week? No. No? Did what did you do this?
+
+[11:17] Oh, you went to a wedding. How was the food at the wedding? Good. Come on, really? Really good.
+
+[11:21] Good for a wedding or good? Just because they had like a whole pig and a raw bar, they went all out. Oh, how's the whole pig? Good. Good.
+
+[11:29] I'm trying to look at you. See, I see what I'm doing for you people is I'm reading Nastasia's face, and I actually saw that she enjoyed it. How was the skin? Was it chewy or crunchy? Crunchy.
+
+[11:38] Really? Mm-hmm. I love a crunchy skin. I love a crunchy skin. How big was the pig?
+
+[11:43] Not like that big. Oh, how many people did wedding? Three? Who is she doing? No, that was just the appetizer hour.
+
+[11:48] Oh, oh. She she's showing a pig that's like maybe two feet long. And anyone there who's cooked a pig knows that until the pigs get like longer than that, it's all like bones anyway. There's a few skinny little mothers that will, you know, pigs, baby pigs, and that there's not a lot of meat on them, right? Right.
+
+[12:05] Good news is is that they're fairly uh I I don't think the little guys dry out as easily, right? So it wasn't as dry? No. A lot of fat coming out of the skin. Did you meet the ear?
+
+[12:16] No. Who who at the wedding? There's always one. Who at the wedding. Nobody.
+
+[12:20] Come on. Dave, it was like one part of like sixteen pieces at a happy at the cocktail. There was no one like me there who walked up, ripped off the ear and started eating. No. Yeah, you know what?
+
+[12:32] I've said this before, Nastasia. You better get yourself some new friends. I know. You need new friends. Anyway, let me find this.
+
+[12:39] Uh let me find this thing we had. Judy from Malden writes in this is regarding dunk meals. Couldn't help but pause to jot down a note while listening to you shout down dunk meals. It is true. I got mighty angry over the uh over the dump meals.
+
+[12:53] I did. Uh you don't have to trust my opinion though, since I don't mind wraps. Ooh. She goes on to say, yes, it's essentially edible cardboard, but I can't help myself if I don't want all the bulk of the bread. Here's key.
+
+[13:07] This is why I know I can trust her. I may be a garbage individual, but I'll call a rap a sandwich. Now you see, I have infinite respect for someone who comes out, because I say it to myself all the time. I may be a garbage individual, but props. Props.
+
+[13:26] Am I right? Mm-hmm. Major respect. I got a lot of love for Malden right now. Uh I know you guys feel that maybe America's Test Test Kitchen, which is, you know, you know America's Test Kitchen affiliate, yeah.
+
+[13:39] Uh, can be a little tone-deaf at times, and it's true. But I've spent seven years reading cookbooks cover to cover and cooking mostly dishes that make sense when only one person is eating 98% of the time, uh, and you have no access to outdoor cooking. So those are the things. Cooking cooking for yourself a lot of the time, and no access to the outdoors. Okay?
+
+[14:00] Okay. So I've cooked my way through America's Test Kitchen Slow Cooker Cookbook, which I get you is their answer to dunk meals. And certainly not all the dishes are winners, but some dishes, like shredded barbecue chicken, that is literally chicken and a slightly slightly doctor uh uh but some dishes like a shredded barbecue chicken that's literally chicken and slightly doctored with uh uh barbecue sauce talk about a dump meal. Uh but in other words, like she's saying some a lot of them aren't winners. They a lot of them that she's saying, I guess, blow.
+
+[14:29] But uh I kind of really want to send you guys a copy because she says something interesting. Uh uh the mailing address, which we'll send Nastasi, you can send her the mailing address. Okay. Uh I'm sure uh Dave will do a look inside on Amazon. I didn't get a chance this morning because as I said, normally the time when I would be looking inside that for you to make comments.
+
+[14:44] Nastasi and I were talking to uh the factory in China. Uh anyway, um sure Dave will do a look inside, but here's uh another important uh paragraph. The first lesson was that most slow cooker recipes are mediocre at best. Best because most of the time one cannot simply dump a bunch of ingredients into a slow cooker and walk away. True.
+
+[15:04] Obviously. That's why I was yelling at your sister about not browning the meat beforehand, because that's garbage. Uh, one needs to develop flavor using a host of mostly new and interesting techniques that are contained in the book. So apparently America's test kitchen has a bunch of new techniques that allow you to just dump a bunch of crap into the slow cooker and and uh get a good result. Um microwave spices first and aromatics, tomato paste, etc.
+
+[15:25] etc. Uh par cooking hearty vegetables in a microwave, blah, blah, blah. Uh so anyway, so we'll take a look at it. Um and uh, you know, and it says obviously soy sauce and tomato paste were secret weapons for building flavor, as I yelled at your sister for the teriyaki sauce. But we'll try it.
+
+[15:40] We'll try it. Uh so if you send us that, uh Judy, we'll take a look at it. Right? Yeah, I like a response. And next week, we will have uh Nastasia's sister, the correspondent, coming in with her dunk meal.
+
+[15:51] No, she's gonna call in again. That's what I meant, calling, calling with her dump meal. And hopefully, Nastasi, you can warn her a little bit beforehand. I think she knows now. Like that I'm gonna have some violent reactions towards some of the stuff.
+
+[16:05] I know last week we covered the uh Shy's question on uh Burmese tofu, right? The chickpea polenta? I don't thought we got to nothing. I thought we covered it. Uh okay.
+
+[16:16] Uh I wanted to call uh remember I wanted to call Francis Lamb, but I couldn't get in touch with him because he was. We talked about it, right? I think that was when I was driving. Yeah, you talked about it. So anyway, so if Shy, if I didn't get to your question on the uh on the uh Burmese tofu, which is essentially not tofu, it's essentially a chickpea polenta, right?
+
+[16:35] And uh again, I've never tried it, but there's also Italian variants of chickpea uh polenta, it's called Pinella. Uh I haven't tried those either either, but uh I'm sure it works. But it's definitely not a tofu style thing. It's much more like a polenta, but it sounds delicious. I've never had it.
+
+[16:49] Uh you also had a question on um using molds that I'm not sure to to make tofu ripen like cheese. And uh usually the cheeses that are uh the molds that are used for uh fermented tofus aren't classic Western cheese molds, but they have run tests uh with like penicillin rogue for T, but they've uh bolstered the problem is that a lot of those flavors um in cheeses are uh fat breakdown products. Uh so in general they have to dope the tofu with fats first, and sometimes what they do with milk solids as well, which kind of defeats the purpose. But they'll dope the tofu with fat such that um the molds can uh make similar uh fat uh oxy f fat breakdown um you know, light paste style flavors that you would get from cheese. But it has been tested, I think, in the 70s, although I don't know anyone that does uh commercial stuff.
+
+[17:36] Uh shirtleaf, uh, in his uh and uh his his wife who I can never pronounce her name, they have all the soy books, and if you look online, they have an exhaustive uh search of the literature bibliography on um cheese is uh a tofu uh inoculated with different uh molds. So I go check on that. And and uh Shy, if I didn't get to your actual question uh accurately, just send back again. I know it's taken forever. I feel bad about it.
+
+[18:02] I feel bad about it, right, Nastasia? I mean, we've had a bunch of weeks where we've had a bunch of crap going on, right? Chris, did I get to Chris's Gravlocks question? I don't think so. Okay.
+
+[18:11] Uh called in a long time ago. I have made Gravlocks, secured uh Scandinavian salmon a few times before, but have now been asked to make it for my sister's wedding, which hopefully didn't already happen. You know, otherwise we're host. Uh I'm concerned that I'm producing something that is safe to eat and would like to know about the principles which make it safe to eat. The procedure for curing fish is to prepare a mixture of salt, sugar, black pepper, and dill.
+
+[18:35] Sources vary quite a bit in the ratio of these ingredients and also in the ratio of curing mixture to the massive fish being cured. Spread it over uh longitudinally sliced salmon fillets with the skin on. Place the two fillets together and wrap in cling film then cure in the fridge for about 48 hours, uh flipping every now and again, which by the way, I emailed Nils and that's pretty much his recipe. I have Nils' recipe, Nils Norn, uh uh here. I'll I'll give it to you before I continue.
+
+[18:59] Uh Nils uses 1.5 uh sugar to one salt. Uh if you use the kosher salt, blend it until it's fine, otherwise it doesn't melt properly. Uh Nils mixes a salt and sugar mixture with chopped dill and black pepper. Even though white pepper is more traditional, Nils hates white pepper because of the moldy taste. Hates, hates, hates it, hates.
+
+[19:16] Actually, I actually'm not a huge fan either. You like white pepper? Mm-hmm. Because it's moldy tasting, right? And do you care about seeing black pepper on your product?
+
+[19:23] No, to me it's a sign that there's black pepper there. I love black pepper. I hate white pepper. You know who loves white pepper? Wiley.
+
+[19:29] Wiley Dufrain. Loves white pepper. He's not a huge fan of black pepper. You know what I think he is? Wrong.
+
+[19:35] I think Trump would probably love white pepper. Whoa, I'm gonna tell Wiley you said that. You think Trump is a white pepper fan? That's not what I said. He said I think what?
+
+[19:44] He said he thinks. See, that's very Trumpy in yourself. You don't actually like I'm not ascribing to any opinion, but I've heard some people say Trump likes white pepper. I get all my information from the internet. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:55] Wow. Wow. So you're s and I I am I sensing some there's a there's a racial overtone to the to the pepper argument all of a sudden. I hadn't even never even never occurred to me. Although I guess it fits white being moldy.
+
+[20:08] Uh anyway, uh even though white pepper is more traditional. I debone, scale the skin, and leave the uh leave it on as the skin, and here's a key thing that Nils says as the skin is really good to sear after it's cured. When you remove it before you slice it, but it's cured, he likes the the seared, cured skin. I rub the mixture and put the flesh sides together. Don't weigh it down, just make sure to turn it after 24 hours, or less if it is a smaller salmon.
+
+[20:33] So anyway, so that's Nils's direct from Nils' uh mind. And Nils' Gravlock's pretty damn good. I mean, if I had to say, give me some Swedish crap, I would go to Nils and say, Nils, can you cook me some Swedish crap? Wouldn't you do that, Nastassi? Mm-hmm.
+
+[20:46] Yeah. I haven't seen Nils in a while. Hopefully I'll see him soon. Um I also understand that there might be some risk of contracting parasites. That you hate what's the worst word for parasite in your mind, Nastasia?
+
+[21:00] I mean, you don't mind the word parasite, you just hate all the things associated with it. Worm. Spoor. Mm-hmm, spore, like what else? Anything?
+
+[21:08] Cysts. Cysts. Uh parasites, which can be mitigated by using fish that have been frozen to below a certain temperature for an extended period of time. Probably not attainable in a home freezer. Actually, it is.
+
+[22:32] Whereas a lot of fish, especially farmed, which is a lot of what your salmon's gonna get unless you're getting the wild caught, uh, it's much better for them to freeze it properly at the source and ship it than to go through the the whole uh cold chain uh unfrozen. You know what I mean? Like a lot of all your sushi that you eat uh supposedly has been frozen to kill parasites, and so freezing is not what it once was. Like very high quality frozen fish is kind of the best that you can get for some of these bigger things unless you're catching it um you know right away, unless it's off of a day boat or something like that. But you're not you're not getting unless you live in Alaska or in uh Washington, you're not getting salmon anywhere close to its source.
+
+[23:17] You know what I'm saying? So anyway, so I would just buy stuff that's frozen ahead of time uh so that you don't have to uh worry about it. I would like to prepare and slice this in advance. How far in advance can I prepare it? And will slicing in advance increase the re risk that somebody might get sick from the fish.
+
+[23:32] Yeah, of course. Anytime that you're taking something that's a whole muscle and cutting it, you are introducing the possibility of uh adding bacteria. So if you get like any kind of contamination on it, uh listeria or whatever, you're increasing the surface area on on which it can grow. And you know, the the knife, if it's not fully sanitized, I mean, are you gonna get someone sick? Like maybe not, but you know, um yeah, you definitely increase the increase the risk.
+
+[24:02] Now, if you I don't know if if you want to if cheat it and you can add something that will kill bacteria like uh nitrites or something like this, but I don't really I don't know a lot about um cured uh fish safety, but definitely you're increasing the risk. It's still a small risk, right? Anyway, uh also do you have any values for the ratio of curing mixture to fish and the composition of the mixture? Anyway, I gave you nils and stuff on that, but uh not sure how to answer on the safety. Uh look, I would slice it, I would slice it um pretty soon thereafter and keep it really cold, you know, keep everything really cold, like you know, sanitize your knife, it's probably not gonna be a problem.
+
+[24:41] But yeah, anytime you're doing something like that, you're increasing risks. And maybe someone in the chat room has something to say on that. Um, should we take a you want to take a break? Come back with more cooking issues? Oh, let's take a break and come back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[25:07] Hi, this is Peter Kim, the executive director of Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink. We're a nonprofit founded by Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network. And we want to take people on a learning adventure through the world of food. We just opened Mofad Lab, our gallery space at 62 Bayard Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where we are currently showing flavor, making it and faking it. Flavor features some very cool sensory interaction.
+
+[25:31] Flavor tablets deliver tastings of vanilla and umami. And the Willy Wonka inspired smell synth lets you encompose over half a million different flavors. So come on by and visit Mofad Lab. We're open five days a week, and tickets are five dollars for kids and ten dollars for adults. Learn more about the Museum of Food and Drink at Mofad.org.
+
+[25:54] Peter Kim, huh? Peter Kim. Peter Kim. You know that the entire time he was talking about uh talking about us on cooking issues, that he was uh like making snide faces. He was just like you know what I mean?
+
+[26:10] I can see his face. I could see his face of disgust as he mentioned cooking issues. I could just feel it. That's so Peter. Yeah, I know.
+
+[26:17] So Peter. We gotta get his butt back in here so we can. I asked him to come today. And it was too busy, me, me, me, me, me, me. Yeah.
+
+[26:23] Working on the uh on the next exhibition that we're gonna do. Which they're gonna do a Kickstarter later on uh to make money for the next exhibition. Don't worry, Nastasi made her Kickstarter face. You're not involved. That's all right.
+
+[26:35] Nastasia hates Kickstarters, which we can get. If anyone ever wants Nastasia to get to if you want Nastasia to rant, like get her started on running. Unless I hate you, then I'll tell you that they're a good idea, which I did once. Someone asks you, should you do one? You're like, Yeah.
+
+[26:51] Yeah. It's so fun. Sometimes look, sometimes it's necessary. And first of all, there are some people who enjoy interacting with people. For them, maybe it'll be good.
+
+[27:00] For you, living nightmare. Some people may be okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[27:06] Also, if you were gonna do a Kickstarter and you didn't actually have a product you needed to deliver, if it was not actually a product, yeah. If it's a nonprofit, you know I think it's better. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's like whatever. Anyway, Rachel from Hong Kong wrote in. Hey, uh, Dave, Nastasia, and David in the booth.
+
+[27:23] And any other special guests. No, no other, no special guests today because Peter apparently doesn't think that we're we're worthy. Right. We're worthy. Not even uh not even the chance to talk about MoFad and a free lunch is enough to entice him.
+
+[27:36] Entice him in. Uh a little bit late to the game and only found out about your podcast this January. Spent the last six months powering through the entire backlog. Yes, I'm one of those nut jobs. Wow.
+
+[27:46] You know, I I feel for anyone that you're friends with. You know what I mean? That's like a lot of screaming and ranting to wade your way through. Yeah. Uh bit gutted that I didn't quite make it uh to wish Jackie Molecules Bonvayor Von Voyage, but now I'm taking comfort that we still get to hear him on the Heritage Radio Outro for now.
+
+[28:03] We gotta get Jack to record some more outros. Someone just beat down the back wall. You hear that? Somebody beat almost punched through the back wall, like Kool-Aid style. Did you call out for Kool-Aid?
+
+[28:12] Oh, yeah. Remember that? Oh! Whoa, man. David, you are quick on the button today.
+
+[28:19] That is some strong Kool-Aid oh yeah noise. I have my coffee. Yeah, sweet. What kind of coffee do you like? Black.
+
+[28:25] But like, do you are you espresso man or an American cup of coffee man? Um, well, in summertime I do cold brew. Um I like Americanos. I don't like it. I don't like I don't like milk really.
+
+[28:38] I like milk, but not in my coffee. Yeah, agreed. I like milk formed into cheese. Oh, which I was supposed to talk about later. Let's get to the question.
+
+[28:46] Oh, nice segue. Yeah, but I gotta finish. I gotta finish Rachel. So I know how you feel about vacuum sealing chicken uh for low temp cooks, but texture aside, because my theory is that especially the higher the vacuum, if it's cooked in a vacuum bag, it affects the texture of the chicken, makes it spongy, and gives it that uh you're more apt to have that feeling. I'll describe it this way that when you bite into it, it's excessively juicy at the beginning, but then turns to fibrous pulp as you chew.
+
+[29:11] You know what I'm talking about in Stasia? You felt it. Yeah, that's my feeling. Uh but texture aside, assuming I've pulled a hard vacuum on a bag of chicken breasts and cooked it through to pasteurization time and temp, how long uh will the cooked chicken uh then keep in sealed bags refrigerated before spoilage occurs? Uh I tend to batch cook, and I've had bags keep uh almost two weeks uh smelling and tasting okay uh so far.
+
+[29:36] But recently I had a batch smell off after six days. I reckon it's an anomaly. Uh might have effed up the seal on that batch. Well, the question is if you effed up the seal on that batch, the one that smelled off, like did you get uh did the bags blow? In other words, did they inflate?
+
+[29:51] So a lot of times uh if something's gone wrong, there's two things that can happen. You can just see that you have a loss of seal. Uh this is especially, I forget to say, did you bone them? Did you bone them? I can't I can't see.
+
+[30:05] So if if you if you don't, let's say you let's say you have chicken breasts. Now, this is before I get to your safety question. Let's say you have chicken breasts and the bone, there's still a bone attached to them. Now, if you suck a very, very hard vacuum, like a like vac like like wait till the machine gets down to its full vacuum and then allow it to suck for an additional 30 to 40 seconds, right? You'll evacuate most of the air, most of the air out of the bones.
+
+[30:30] Uh, and then you'll, you know, you'll be able to get a good seal and you'll be able to uh have the bag stay tight. However, if let's say that chicken was a little bit warmer than the rest of the chicken, then it's never going to get down to the super low vacuum. You might not pull all the air out of the bones. And in that case, when you cook, air will seep out of the bones because bird bones are hollow, and you'll get a puffed bag, right? So that's one way you can get a puffed bag on a chicken.
+
+[30:55] Uh but let's assume that didn't happen, right? You can sometimes you can get a pinhole leak, right? And usually if you look at it really closely, you'll see there's a little fold in the bag seal where it didn't seal right, or the edge of the bag got too close to the edge of the bar, and sometimes you can get a little pinch or a crimp mark in the in where the sealer is towards the edge of the bags, and you'll notice you don't have a good seal, or there'll be like a little piece of herb or something that cut across one of the bag ceiling points, and you can see. And there you'll see you'll get some leakage in, and what you'll have is a not tight bag. That usually won't give you a blown bag.
+
+[31:27] A blown bag happens when there's bacterial growth in the bag, and it literally inflates from uh gas that's being produced. And if you get a blown bag on anything that you weren't specifically trying to get a blown bag on, so for instance, like if you're making sauerkraut, you're trying to grow lactic acid bacteria in an anaerobic environment. In that case, if the bag doesn't blow, it's not working properly, right? So uh anytime you get a blown bag, something terribly um wrong uh has happened. Anyway, uh I reckon it's an anomaly.
+
+[32:02] I might have messed up the seal on that batch, but I'm also curious as to what makes stuff go bad in the absence of air and any pathogens since it's been pasteurized. For reference, I tend to cook my chicken bla uh breasts in flattish 200 gram uh bags, I guess portion of 200 grams, at 62 degrees Celsius for about two to three hours. Uh, thanks in advance and for all your uh time doing the show every week. It's been an awesome source of information. I'm not entirely sure what I'm gonna listen to now that I've wiped out the bat law uh backlog.
+
+[32:27] Cheers, Rachel from Hong Kong. All right. So there's there's a lot of stuff uh uh going on here. First of all, as regards the shelf life, I'll read this is from the the um the Minnesota, this is Minnesota's food code. I don't know why Minnesota, that's the first people that came online when I when I popped it up, right?
+
+[32:43] So it's the Minnesota food code requires the shelf life under refrigeration of products that are vacuum packaged in a retail store, right? So that would be like what use so it's like be limited to 14 days. However, food manufacturing uh places that are inspected by USDA or state get 30 days or longer. And the reason is is because they don't trust retail operations to have the levels of safety and quality on the products as they go as they go into the bag, and they don't trust the uh pasteurization procedures and the cold chain holding ability of a retail outlet to guarantee safety for 30 days or longer. But if everything is done right, right, then they're like, oh yeah, 30 days, no problem.
+
+[33:28] So you can keep stuff that long as long as you're cooking stuff properly and maintaining it. Now, as for bags that appear to have been pasteurized and still uh still blow off and go bad. Now, you're quite right, most spoilage bacteria, especially things that stink and smell bad, do not grow in uh anaerobic environments, i.e., they will not grow in a vacuum. And in fact, that is why uh people are worried about the safety of vacuum cooked products because typically uh when things spoil uh in an aerobic environment, i.e., with oxygen, when they spoil in an aerobic environment, they smell terrible. And so you can use sliminess, like it grows slime, you can take smell, and all these things indicate that bacteria have been growing on it and that it's no longer good nor safe to eat.
+
+[34:17] The problem is is that in a vacuum, that's not the case. So in a vacuum, you can get pathogens that grow. Uh they're particularly worried about things like botulism, listeria, uh, perfingids, these sorts of things, uh, that can grow in the absence of producing a smell or sliminess, and sometimes in the absence of producing a gas that would indicate that there has been growth at all. And that's why people are worried about the safety of vacuum-packed foods in general. Now, when things go wrong in a bag, usually it's due to improper pasteurization.
+
+[34:54] And so uh that can happen, and and then you can get the growth if you don't kill all the vegetative cells, typically in a pasteurizing procedure, and 62 degrees Celsius for two to three hours in something that is fairly flat is more than enough to properly pasteurize um a chicken breast. More than enough. Um typically, right, if you get blow off in the bag, you're you're getting something that can grow in an anaerobic environment that's not spore forming. So we're talking about uh lactic acid bacteria. Most of the time you're gonna kill lactic acid bacteria.
+
+[35:29] 100% of the time, if you pasteurize it, you're gonna kill uh the lactic acid bacteria and they're not forming spores, so you shouldn't have that kind of a problem. Typically, when you do have that kind of a problem, I ascribe it usually either, as you say, to a leak where bacteria can get in, or to a situation where you have like two or three bags touching each other, and in fact the temperature on the inside of that bag didn't actually get up to where you think it should have fast enough. So sometimes that can incubate bacteria in the bag, in which case it probably tasted bad right when you took it out of the bath, or um it it hasn't killed everything and it can grow later, or you have like a knife jab, and some bacteria have survived on the inside of the meat that somehow got there, it didn't pasteurize all the way through because you had layer on layer on layer, and then uh it grew over time. The other thing is is that I I have this uh sneaking suspicion that in certain cases of this there are other things going on. And so if you go to this book called Principles of Modified Atmosphere and SUV product packaging, edited by Jeffrey Farber and Karen Dodds, if the pH inside of the bag, and so this has happened enough that it it warrants some um some thinking, at a pH greater than about 5.8, right, there are things that are like thermophilic and mesophilic that might be able to survive and can grow in uh anaerobic things.
+
+[36:52] For instance, uh, and this is just, you know, off the top of uh Wikipedia and this book's head, I haven't researched it. Uh Enterobacteria uh uh Broccothrix and Chevonella putrefactions, which is also known as alteromonas putrefactions, and they can cause stink and grow in an anaerobic environment and may not be killed unless you really make sure it's pasteurized right. But I have a sense that that's kind of what's what's happening. Um obviously if it smells bad, don't uh don't eat it, right? Does that make any damn sense?
+
+[37:23] Anyway. Gus wrote in, uh, hey, my name is Gus. I'm a college student in Kentucky majoring in biology and chemistry. Uh absolutely love how scientific and detailed you guys get on the show. Uh without my two years of biology and chemistry classes, I'm not sure I'd be able to understand half of what you guys are talking about, but that's what I love.
+
+[37:39] In my spare time, I love to make uh bean to bar chocolate. Nastasia hated making bean to bar chocolate. Do we make that? All the time, remember? We didn't just make the ketchup thing.
+
+[37:48] We made a couple of batches first of regular bean chocolate. Remember grinding all of the cacao nibs cacao in the uh champions and then all of that cocoa liquor mess everywhere? No. It was drowned out by the other nonsense we had to do. Yeah, you didn't hate that as much as you hated like all of the nut butters.
+
+[38:06] Yeah in in the sand thing. Yeah. Well, you said you're never gonna do that again. Never. Never.
+
+[38:18] In my spare time, I love to make bean to bar chocolate. I order the raw beans and then ferment, roast, winnow, grind, and finally conch them. I ground them by hand for a while in a mocha jete before recently upgrading to a countertop melanger. Uh I usually end up with some pretty delicious results, and I enjoy the process. However, I'm pretty blind as far as the science uh behind it all.
+
+[38:37] Like sugar and fat structure, tempering, blooming, etc., and would love to learn more. Do you know of any books or other literature that really dive deep into this? The nerdier the better. I haven't had much luck finding anything, so any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
+
+[38:51] Uh keep up the great work. Gus, okay. So back in the day when I used to order when I used to Xerox all of the technical books out of the uh science and business industry library in uh here in New York City. The classic chocolate work was by uh a fella named Minifee, and it was just known as Minifee Chocolate. It's very industrially oriented, and it's also it's been updated a couple of times, and it is, I think, still one of the industry standards, but it's a extremely expensive, like uh like 150, 200, and B is I think a little bit out of date.
+
+[39:26] However, I'm sure they have it in the line in your library at school for you to go look at. Um it's not what I what I recommend. Um the the kind of book that came out uh I don't know what it was 10, 15 years ago, that everyone started um buying, that it's it's a couple of things. It's blessedly short. You can do an Amazon look inside of, and it's only 30 bucks, is uh The Science of Chocolate by uh Stephen uh Beckett.
+
+[39:53] Uh there's a paperback, there's a hardcover, and uh one of them I forget is on on Amazon Prime for like 30 bucks, and it's decent. It's short and it's to the point, it gives you the science. It's still focused on um on bigger operations, not necessarily on on kind of what you're doing, but I would get that, and then in terms of the actual, and that'll give you some of the science, but in terms of the actual like putting your hands to recipes, I would go on any of the websites out there where people are doing their own kind of bean-to-bar stuff, like uh chocolate alchemy and stuff, which is who we use when we were originally getting the Santa. There's a lot of different mélangeurs out there. I would say uh, in addition to the Melanger, you'd be uh you'd be good if you went and got yourself a champion juicer.
+
+[40:29] That's still what I would use for the initial grind out of the um of the uh the you know the cook the cacao uh beans or nibs or whatever you're using to do it. But yeah, so I would get a hold of champion, but yeah, get the science of chocolate second edition um and let me know what you think. I think it's pretty good. I don't think there's anything better at that price point, that's for sure. Um I'm assuming that you don't have infinite money to spend since you're a college student majoring in biology.
+
+[41:00] Am I right so I'm assuming? All right. Uh Barry wrote in this kind of a hard question. I don't know what to answer. Maybe like take I wanted to get McGee on this, but you know, he's been in Spain, so I don't know.
+
+[41:12] Barry writes in rather than wait to see uh if there is a show, uh here's my question for the next show. How uh I guess it was a show a week where we didn't necessarily gonna have a show, I don't know. How does a chef create the taste sensation of individual flavors that meld into one? For example, if I make shrimp etuffe, it tastes like shrimp etuffe. But when um when a chef does it uh on the initial bite, uh, which when a chef does it, on the initial bite, one tastes the red pepper, then the celery, then the onion, followed by the tomato.
+
+[41:42] As one chews, each uh one of the clear individual flavors melds together uh to taste like a shrimp etuffe. Uh, how does this how does this work? And secondly, how does a chef create an initial spicy flavor that passes and is followed by a different lingering spicy flavor later? Well, huh? How do you create things that meld?
+
+[42:03] It's a complicated, that's a really complicated question. I don't really, it's in uh it's kind of hard. I've never really used kind of do those kinds of things, you know, kind of naturally. One thing you can do, uh, Barry, is um you include things that that bridge. So for instance, like if you need something to linger and you're gonna add some acidity, you want to and you need to draw, for instance, the front of the palate towards the back of the palate, and you know something's missing, you can add an acid, like something like lime that's gonna pull, and so like a lot of spicier cuisine you see, and I think it's not just because that's where it grows, you'll see lime in it instead of lemon.
+
+[42:45] And the reason is is that lime's gonna integrate across the flavor palette longer than um lemon will because the malic acid has a longer trail out. So like when you're tasting something, a lot of times when things integrate, it's either because you've put something in with too high of a high note, like a particular spice, that just hits one note too hard, and you need to bring the rest of the stuff up to kind of beat that note down, or a lot of times what happens is is you'll have um uh a drop down somewhere in the mid palate of your eating. I when I think about flavors, I tend to think about uh the time progression of what goes on in in in in something and then try to figure out kind of where things um drop out, and usually that's where you'll notice things don't meld well, like a lot of times in the in the middle of the palate, and that's where you know that's why we tend to add a bunch of salt, which rounds out all the flavor. That's why we tend to hit everything with acid at the end because it doesn't just brighten but it rounds everything out. But I don't really know how to answer your your question, other words.
+
+[43:47] I guess I need more thought on it. Need more thought about how to how to round it out. What do you think, Nastasia? Do you know what eggs at duvet is? Eggs in like in a duvet cover?
+
+[43:59] It's when you fart under the cover. What does that have to do with this? You just think about it? Welcome to my life. People, welcome to my life.
+
+[44:09] Trying to talk about how to make flavors meld together. She's like, you don't meld together parting under a cover. Etuffey. Going to New Orleans, by the way, for Tales of the Cocktail, speaking of uh at Tufay. Harass him down there, everybody.
+
+[44:26] I'll be there a blessedly short period of time. I'm going there from I'll be there a Thursday night and Friday night. I know your cell phone number circulates somewhere online. Please, please. I'm bringing the centrifuge with me, by the way.
+
+[44:39] So for those of you the Tales of the Cocktail, I'm gonna do a demo of it for the uh cat program, see get some feedback for some uh some bartenders. Nastasia, evil. You're just the evil person. You know what I'm saying? Yep.
+
+[44:53] You just like, you know, have to be mean to me for no no reason. Well, one time I put my away message when I went on vacation and said, if you want to contact Dave, it was for the people that we work with. I forgot that the radio show people email me. Yeah. And then your number was there.
+
+[45:09] Nastasia also put the like swipe credit card for the original seal, Sears all over. I don't know how that happened. And people are calling me, they're like, Who are you? Why did you charge my credit card? I'm like, what are you talking about?
+
+[45:24] I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, you're a thief. And a lot. I'm like, what are you talking about? And then remember, like, people will be like that people would order a Sears all on uh Kickstarter, right?
+
+[45:35] Or Shopstarter. And then they would forget. And they didn't know what Booker and Dax was. You know what I mean? Why is it men?
+
+[45:44] Why are you going sexist on this? No, because it was usually like the wives of the men who bought why is this charge on my bill? Why does it mean like did you check with your husband? I checked you I said, Did you buy a gift for anyone? Right.
+
+[45:56] And she's like, no. And because I remember that one specifically in that chair. I was like, oh man. I was like, Nastasia, how the hell did they get my personal number to call about credit card stuff? So weird.
+
+[46:09] Yeah, they matched, I don't know. Yeah. And so, you know, to get back at Nastasia, like the time she sent me on Spirit Airlines next to uh, you know a dog. Next to well, a w a woman and her fake uh service dog. You know what I mean?
+
+[46:27] The uh I gave them her number. I was like, you need to call Nastasia. Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, Mark calls in. This is a burning man question.
+
+[46:35] I'm not gonna be able to answer this question right now. I gotta think on it. Okay, so go to Montserrat. No, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna talk about it, and then someone else will have a suggestion, I hope.
+
+[46:43] One big searing question. Searing question that's part of the joke here. Uh I'd like to serve a thousand creme brulees at this year's Burning Man Festival in the Nevada Desert. But what to serve these in? First of all, we gotta ask Jordana.
+
+[46:56] Jordan Rod. She's gonna come on the show in three weeks, I think. Won't it burning man? That'll be before Burning Man, because she's going to. Yeah, because she served some sort of cocktail at the Burning Man last year.
+
+[47:07] She didn't use limes. I don't want to get into it. I don't want to get into it. She came, we talked about how to do what we wanted to do. You insulted her, and then she And then she did something else entirely.
+
+[47:18] Which is fine. Just don't ask. You know what I mean? But anyway, but that's not my point. My point is is that is that uh Mark, let me ask you this.
+
+[47:26] Is the Burning Man crowd the creme brulee kind of crowd? That's the question. What do you think? I think no, but I don't know. Are you gonna be able to chill these creme brulee?
+
+[47:37] Anyway, whatever. Uh the creme brulee is sorted. Some investigation has led me to this product. Dr. uh Odeker or Oetker Creme Ert Ertker.
+
+[47:47] It's that German brand, they make the vanilla zucca as well. You know what I'm talking about, right? You see it, Doctor? Yeah. Uh creme brulee mix.
+
+[47:54] It's prefab, just need milk and cream. Uh foolproof and tastes okay, and it's cheap, which will come in handy since we're gonna prepare this in an RV with a very limited kitchen. Uh we also get to insult the French uh kitchen at large. Now, by the way, I looked at the ingredient list for that sucker, and it's uh starch and carrageenan and milk powder, so it should stay in the heat because the carrageenin should keep it set no matter what. It's not uh gelatin-based, so or anything like that, so the carrageenin um should work.
+
+[48:23] Um I can't work out how to make the ramekins, however. They must be edible since there's no waste at Burning Man, and we definitely don't want to bring pottery rammickens, although how burning man would that be to like literally like slipcast a thousand things, eat the creme brulee, just shatter it into the freaking desert, and it becomes part of the earth. Pot of the earth. Seems like it's very burning man, right? You know what I mean?
+
+[48:47] Like those little like freaking like you ever do Burning Man? Oh no. What if you had no family? Would you ever do Burning Man? Uh don't don't but don't people have to get naked?
+
+[48:56] I don't believe in naked. Oh no. I don't like heat except on your funeral, that's what you want to be. I don't like heat. I don't like heat.
+
+[49:05] I like it it. It gets cold at night, like super cold. I like that. I like cold at night. I like the desert.
+
+[49:10] Well, yeah, you yeah. I don't really like collaboration. You get to choose who you want to be with. I like to kind of like be left alone. You can do that too.
+
+[49:20] Then why go to Burning Man? Can I be left? Can't I just go camp there by myself? Mm-hmm. Not in Burning Man.
+
+[49:28] But you really want to be all alone in the desert? Not all alone. Yeah. So you can like choose who to speak to. Isn't it like large petroleum fires?
+
+[49:40] I I don't know. I don't know. I've never been. I've never been. Look, I look, uh uh, I've had plenty of friends who have gone and said it's life changing, although I'm not sure their life afterwards was better than their life beforehand.
+
+[49:53] You know what I'm saying? Like I've gone, I've known people who like it was life-changing in the sense that like they ended up breaking off their engagement and then like going to a downward spiral for five years. You know what I'm saying? I think it's different for everybody. Kind of like LSD, different for everybody?
+
+[50:09] Like some people they spiral off, and some people it like you know leads to enlightenment. It can go either way. What did Jordana say? She loved it. Like obviously she's gonna go again.
+
+[50:18] Is her uh boyfriend Daniel going? No. Did he go to first? You can't even walk up a rock without crying. Like Wow.
+
+[50:26] Wow. Nastasia insulting our friends on air. Alright. I can't work out how to make the ramekins. They must be edible since there's no waste at Burning Man and we don't want to bring pottery rammickins.
+
+[50:39] I'm thinking of a caramel or cornetto slash cookie ramekin uh alternative, but making these will be very labor intensive. And also they're gonna get soggy, right? They're gonna get soggy. Marmickins? A cookie ramekin.
+
+[50:52] First of all, think of all those freaking cookies. I think a super ball or move would be to slip cast a whole crap ton of these things. It's heavy though. Where is it coming from? No, do it in the Vada.
+
+[51:05] Then you have to bring a plaster mold? Yeah. I guess it would take a million years. And you wouldn't be able to fire them, so you'd get clay in your creme du lait. Right.
+
+[51:18] Although wouldn't it be hot enough to fire them? No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Thousands of. By the way, PS.
+
+[51:24] Although you could build a giant fire outside of your RV and be firing the clay mannequins. That is super baller. That is what you are supposed to be there for. That is so super ballers. Like slip casting in the desert is super easy.
+
+[51:36] Here's why, right? You got your you got your slip mix, right, which is like a liquid, and then it's just these plaster, these two plaster um uh things. So you pour it in to the to the ramekin. So you let's say you have this big piece of plaster that has the cup mold shaped in it. You ever done slip casting size?
+
+[51:54] No. So what you do is is you you pour it in, you fill up the entire cup mixture, right? And you let it sit. Depends on how thick you want it, but like like the ones I used to do, you only had them let out clear. Do you use the earth as the I don't know, it depends if they have clay there.
+
+[52:08] But you let it sit, the slip mix, you let it sit for like, you know, however long, like 30 minutes. The plaster absorbs the moisture from uh the slip mixture and forms a leathery um layer right next to the plaster. You then dump the rest of the slip out, and you have this thin, perfectly hollow. I used to make uh vases this way for art for an art sculpture. I was doing the uses.
+
+[52:32] And uh, and then you have this thing that you can then go fire, and then you do it again. You could do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. You could keep making them. And I made big, like uh like two and a half feet tall vases, and in the course of a couple of days, I made like 40 or 50 of them. So if you're making little ramekins in like in a like a master mold thing, you could make a crap ton of them.
+
+[52:53] It just seems super baller to like make a kiln out in the desert. Whatever, you're not gonna do it. Maybe you will. Maybe it'll be. It just seems like a super baller thing to do, or maybe get someone else to do that.
+
+[53:02] Or have your camp do it. Alright, but going back to a cookie, I think cookie's a pain in the butt. And also, in order for a cookie to work, it's gonna have to be so thick that you're gonna be hauling eight tons of cookie out there. You know what I'm saying? And they're gonna break.
+
+[53:16] What do you think about? I mean, you could do like a like a creme brulee tostada shell. No. That would hold anyway. You hate that idea?
+
+[53:25] Also, the problem is that how you get the creme brulee wants to be cold, right? Are you gonna chill it? But if you chill it in the ramekin that's edible, the ramekin that's edible is gonna get all nasty, right? It's gonna get all floppy and nasty because there's gonna be a liquid contact. You get me?
+
+[53:40] Mm-hmm. See the problem? Mm-hmm. Why does he want to do creme brule? Whatever.
+
+[53:44] Anyway, that's not the point. But the point is the carrageenin, like the ultimate would be if you could do if you could if you could set the the creme brulee in a tube. A tube! Who is that uh Alaska Senator? It's a series of tubes.
+
+[53:58] Remember that? That's how you describe the internet and uh set it in a tube and then slice it into discs and let them thaw in your ramekin. Then you could use almost anything, because it wouldn't need to be around that long before you served it. It wouldn't get soggy, right? But the issue is is that I don't know if the kerragen in they're using, I didn't have time to look it up, is gonna be freeze thaw stable, but you gotta run a test on that.
+
+[54:20] Um anyway. Oh, yeah, maybe unless we freeze the creme brulee and blocks, cut them up uh in portions and coat them. Yeah, but lots of work. By the way, I'll think on a little more. Uh they said best I could find were pre-frab waffle bowls.
+
+[54:32] Not quite it, but we'll do. That's kind of expensive. I'll think on some more. Maybe someone in the uh in the cooking issues land has uh some theories. One thing I'll say, remember, creme brulee is one of the few things I recommend using a naked torch on instead, especially for Burning Man, naked torch and not a Searsol, because it just is.
+
+[54:51] It's one of those things. But I'll I'll think on that, I'll think on it some more. I thought you didn't believe in naked. Uh I only if only for creme brulee do I believe in naked. Uh all right.
+
+[55:01] So uh all right, quick one. Daniel Royce saying, question about pressure cookers. Uh I'm not even gonna get the talk. I made mozzarella uh this week, and by the way, it's one of the do you ever have anything in your life, Nastasia, that like you've had such a traumatic experience that you won't ever do it again? Uh yeah, I like ravioling.
+
+[55:19] Yeah. So like 23 or 24 years ago, right? 23 years ago. I was like 22. And I was uh at my wife's apartment.
+
+[55:29] I was still in college or just gotten out of college. She was in, she was uh, you know, had her first job. There was no internet, and I wanted to make mozzarella. And I'll just say that it was a freaking catastrophe. Like a freaking catastrophe.
+
+[55:44] There was no place to look it up. I was just what I could gather from books on how it was done. I didn't know how to make curds, I was not a professional, and my wife for the past 23 years has made fun of my mozzarella attempt 23 years ago so much that I have never tried it again, ever, until last night. And I have to say, success. But we'll talk more about it later.
+
+[56:08] But yeah, she likes she was like, she was like, you should leave that kind of stuff to the professionals. This was, you know, obviously I wasn't a food professional at the time. But you know what? Like this weekend, I was like, I'm tomatoes are gonna grow. Where my tomatoes are growing, there's no good mozzarella.
+
+[56:23] I need to learn how to make mozzarella again. And plus, you know what? Damn it, I am a professional now. You have that cheese shop near you. In New York.
+
+[56:31] No, in Connecticut. Cheese shop. Do they make mozzarella? Yeah. Is it good?
+
+[56:35] Yeah, we yeah. The mozzarella's good. Got a minute. I'll look it up. Okay.
+
+[56:41] A minute. Daniel, I'm gonna get your question in a minute. Question about pressure cookers. A good hundred episodes ago, a caller asked about what pressure cookers you would recommend he buy and and why. I'm having a hell of a time finding the episode.
+
+[56:51] Thought you might answer it again. What stovetop pressure cooker would you recommend, ignoring price? I think you have mentioned the Coon Recon model in the past. That's the only one I like that I've used myself personally. How does that model compare to the Fissler Vitaquiq?
+
+[57:03] I hate the word Vitaquick because it implies that you're keeping vitamins inside in a pressure cooker, which is ho ho hocum. But uh it looks like a really good unit. The fissler vitaquick uh looks like the Coon Recon in that it has a pressure uh gauge that goes up and down and so allows you to um gauge the pressure without it venting. And as you might know, in my tests I've noticed that venting pressure cookers uh tend to make stocks that don't uh taste as good. That's been my experience backed up by many, many trials.
+
+[57:34] Uh so anyway, so the fissler vitaquik looks good. I don't have any personal experience with it. Uh America's Test Question rates the fistler quite a bit higher than the Coon Recon model. Again, I don't know, I've never used uh the fistler. Uh, are their assessments valid in your opinion.
+
+[57:48] I also can't get a hold of their. Someone can send me their stuff. I don't have their password to their website. They claim the Coon Recon model had the most evaporative loss out of all the models they've tested. If that's the case and they're not testing the Kun Recon right, the Kun Recon, if you overshoot the pressure uh gauge, you'll get evaporative loss because it's telling you to turn down.
+
+[58:08] But my Coon Recon, when it's operating properly, is dead silent and there's no uh there's no venting out of it. Uh so you say, have you found this to be true? No. I also I looked up their thing. Uh I uh I looked up their uh test.
+
+[58:21] They recommend the Fagor, and I hate, I don't know, I hate it. I didn't like that the Fagor. And they made a classic error. I'm gonna leave you with this, and we can talk more about it next time if you want more questions. They made a classic error that people with the Fagor pressure cooker make.
+
+[58:33] The Fagor pressure cooker, when you close the lid and you turn on the heat and it starts building pressure, a little button goes poop and indicates that there is pressure in the unit. It does not indicate that you have reached your operating pressure. So if you use the Fagor model and think that that little yellow dot is an indication that you have reached 15 PSI on the inside of your pressure cooker, you are mistaken. The only way you can figure out whether you've actually reached that pressure is whether or not it's venting steam through the pressure regulator that's set to that pressure, right? Because the button doesn't know whether you're at 5 PSI or 15 PSI or what.
+
+[59:13] It just knows that it's sealed and that you started building pressure. Claha sick mistake. Anyway, we can talk more about it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:43] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] 2%, 2%, 2%. Uh, the 2%'s right over here. Oh, hey, Jenna. I didn't know you shopped here. Uh yeah.
+
+[0:09] Anything to support local food. Know what I mean? I definitely do. Though that's not the only thing you do in the name of good eats, obviously. Well, true.
+
+[0:17] I also host Eating Matters every Wednesday at 5 p.m. where we talk about food policy and how it impacts all of us. Be sure to tune in. Alright, yeah, gotta get the plug in there. I get it.
+
+[0:26] Yep, I'm hashtag shameless. You know what else you can do to support the local food community, right? Well, yeah, make a donation to Heritage Radio Network, the world's pioneer food radio station. That's right. And I gotta call you out on the whole local thing.
+
+[0:42] What do you mean? Well, the farm report, a taste of the past, Japan Eats. Those are shows that take you around the country and the world. Oh, I'll give you that. So how can listeners give their support?
+
+[0:53] It's pretty easy. Just go to Heritage Radio Network.org and click on the big red heart in the top right corner. It's pretty easy from there. Thanks. Hi there.
+
+[1:05] I'm Greg from Capal. Visit us at Kapow.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less. C U PPOW.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[1:24] If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, I don't know, what is it, like 1215, something like that? To like one o'clock, you know, from a bird's pizzeria in Bushwick. Br Brooklyn.
+
+[1:50] Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer. Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah?
+
+[1:54] Mm-hmm. Everything good? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we got uh Dave Id in the booth.
+
+[1:58] How are you doing? Good. How you doing, man? All right, doing all right. Uh it's uh it like I was flying home from New Orleans, and this is the only time of my life I fly home to a place freaking hotter than I was when I'm flying from New Orleans in the middle of the summer.
+
+[2:13] I just got back from Tales of the Cocktail. Tales of the Cocktail, which is now, I don't know, like 11 years old or something like that. I've been going since I think like year two, the year right after Katrina is the first year I I went. And uh originally they started down there because they had no money, right? And so they wanted to have it in New Orleans, which is a big cocktail town.
+
+[2:32] But they're like, what time of year does nobody but nobody want to go to New Orleans? Right now. Like the height of July. It's like, you know what, you know what the other convention was? Like like maybe the second year I went down there at the same time?
+
+[2:46] Swingers. The only other people they're like, like it don't it don't matter. Like, you know, I don't got I don't gotta take them out somewhere nice. We're all just gonna like you know meet up afterwards. Yeah, we can meet in the hotel room.
+
+[2:57] Weird, huh? Whoa. Whoa. Anyway, uh so just got back from there. Uh I demonstrated the centrifuge to uh the uh group of the caps, which they call them cocktail apprentices, but really they're this group of people um, you know, uh that take care of all the behind the house stuff at Tales of Cocktails.
+
+[3:18] So there's something like I forget what it was, it was something like 200,000 uh drinking cups that they they they with all the seminars and all the parties and events and stuff like that. So they do all the batching, the juicing, the the coordination, getting it done. So I demonstrated to those guys. I think they liked it. I made some banana justino, which was good.
+
+[3:35] Uh and I made a um lime cordial. Uh sorry, I made an orange cordial. So I took you know how you know how I always say orange juice when you clarify it, it tastes like sunny D, right? And so it's not that useful because it doesn't taste that good. Well, I've been fermenting it at home, like I told you.
+
+[3:50] Maybe if I I'll next time I try a bottle, if I like it, I'll bring it in and we'll try it on air, okay? Uh it needs to age a little longer, I think. But uh so I I use it um I'm trying to ferment it, but then the other thing I do is uh I take the uh clarified orange juice, I acid adjust it and turn it to a cordial, like lime cordial. And unlike lime cordial, you don't have to heat it because uh it doesn't go off as fast as a lime cordial, so it doesn't have to have that heated taste because a lot of people do like, I want my what are you doing? Just lime cordial, it doesn't taste like it's fresh.
+
+[4:21] Well, it's not fresh, you dunce. It's cordial. It's like a traditional flavor that's supposed to taste like it's been cooked, and you're supposed to like bring it on board a ship and keep yourself from getting scurvy, you moron. That does not supposed to taste fresh. Not every freaking drink with a citrus in it has to taste like it was made uh third like the ingredients were made 13 seconds ago.
+
+[4:38] That's not the freaking point of the cordial. But anyways, this uh orange stuff, it lasts a long time. But let me tell you, I don't know if have I mentioned my like double acid cordial. I have? Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:47] What is it then? Explain the way I know. You haven't freaking mentioned it. You don't even know what it is. You can't even describe it.
+
+[4:52] That's what I live in. I don't listen to you on the show, but I'm sure. All right, yeah, no, I don't think I have mentioned it. So the point is is that when you mix uh when you make lime cordial, typically it's one to one lime juice and sugar, right? Just like simple syrup.
+
+[5:04] That's what people do. They add peel to it, and then they heat it up to a boil, and then they strain it and then they bottle it, and that's cordial. All right, now uh the inherent problem with that is oh, by the way, is your sister gonna call in today? No, she said she hasn't made anything this past week. Oh my gosh.
+
+[5:19] Just a key lime pie. Talk about dump meal. Just tequila? No, just a key lime pie. You don't make a key lime pie in a freaking.
+
+[5:29] I said, but it wasn't in a in a who the hell makes key lime? You can't make key lime pie in a slow cooker. I know. First of all, key lime pie is perhaps the simplest dish on earth to construct. I mean, please tell me she at least made her own graham cracker crust.
+
+[5:48] I'll ask her. I mean, for God's sakes. Did she actually use it? Did she use that bottled key lime juice? People, people, people!
+
+[5:59] You are better off using regular Persian slash beer slimes than bottled key lime juice. Do you agree with that, Nastasia? Mm-hmm. I like key limes. They're a pain to juice, though, huh?
+
+[6:12] You remember when I bought that miniature juicer in Mexico and I brought it back and I and I did an angry juice and I broke it on day one before we could ever use it at the at the bar? Mm-hmm. Anyway. Oh, by the way, someone sent us mead. Oh, really?
+
+[6:24] At least I hope it is. Oh yeah, the mistake. The meatery in New Jersey, Noah's Vice. They sent that over for you. Alright, well, we're gonna taste it.
+
+[6:30] Uh maybe we'll crack it open during the break and start tasting it then. But uh so it's wait, what's it called? The place? Noah's Vice. Noah's Vice.
+
+[6:37] I thought Noah enjoyed grapes, and that was the problem where he got naked and his kids had to cover him up. Yeah, I think that's what the name comes from. But this is made from honey, not from grapes. Noah got crunked out and dropped his drawers in front of his kids on account of wine. So they're saying that that they're off of Noah's vice and they're on this mead action.
+
+[6:58] Maybe Noah had more vices than we knew about. Hmm, Noah had more vices than we knew about. Is that like that's that's like uh it's somewhere in the liner notes for for some band that I don't that I don't know. I haven't thought of the name yet. But right is my right or wrong.
+
+[7:11] Someone correct me on my Bible here. Noah got wasted on grape wine. Chat room, any Bible experts? Got wasted on grape wine, dropped his drawers, and the kids like look the other way so as not to become abominations and like drape stuff over, and we're like, yo, dad, sleep that one off. I believe that is exactly what happened.
+
+[7:30] That that's that's in the Jersey Bible, which someday Nastasi and I are gonna do. Yo, Dad, sleep that off. You know what I mean? It's like someday we're gonna do it. You know what I'm saying, Nastasia?
+
+[7:40] Oh, yeah, caller, you're on the air. Colour, are you there? Color. Don't think so. Color.
+
+[7:49] Hey. Hey, how's it going, Dave? Going all right, what's up? Good. I have a question for you about um liqueur extracts and aging.
+
+[7:58] Hmm. So I've been making some extracts using uh 195 proof uh grain alcohol. And the recipes I've looked at, uh most of them require or recommend that the uh excuse me, the extract uh after adding the simple sugar be aged for a couple months uh in a dark place. I'm wondering why that would be, if that's just an old wives' tale or what the case for that. What kind of bottle is it in?
+
+[8:28] I'm sorry, you're you're barely coming in. Oh, well, there's a couple of things here. One, many many products are actually photosensitive. It's not just um I mean, very few products have the extreme reaction to light that um uh you know the uh humulones in um hops have, right, where they just go skunky on you. But many, many things uh are very reactive to UV light.
+
+[8:53] So in general, unless you know that something specifically is uh light stable, uh it is a very good idea to store it in the dark. Uh sense, but it's it seems to be more for some kind of flavor development or flavor maturation or some kind of smoothing of the flavor out over time uh after the extract, sugar, and water have been kind of combined. It's basically uh a limoncello sort of recipe, except I've made it made it with raspberries or uh basil. Uh and it says add uh you know, after you add your simple syrup, uh, you know, store it for a couple months before drinking. Right.
+
+[9:30] I have okay, so I have more I have never made uh this kind of thing with raspberry, but I've dealt with basil quite a lot uh and aging, and I can tell you for sure that um the day you make it, right, it has uh one taste, the fresh kind of basil taste, and then it does go through a period of it being not in my opinion not as good, right? Uh but you know different and uh changes, and then after basil in particular stabilizes uh somewhere between three and six months. I can't pin the exact date because I didn't taste it every day. But uh and and that's at you know 40 or uh 50 proof, you know what I mean? Uh and yeah, and so the uh and that that's for a distillate though, not for an infusion, but I'm assuming that it's a similar kind of a similar kind of uh of an issue.
+
+[10:23] And um it's a it's a myth that high-proof um high proof uh spirits don't age in the bottle. It's a complete myth. It it it depends. Some high-proof spirits don't really age in the bottle, so whiskies tend to stay pretty stable in the bottle. Vodka clearly stays stable in the bottle.
+
+[10:44] Gins tend to stay stable in the bottle, but uh I mean Saint Germain does not stay stable in the bottle. Um chartreuse is you know stable ish, but if you taste uh chartreuse that's like you know, 15, 20 years old, it's definitely different, and it's not because the recipe has changed, but it's because um it's because it's aged. Now the interesting that the thing about it, the thing that like so as a consumer who goes into making their own, the the reason it's not apparent is because uh you know, all commercial spirits have been developed to stay stable so that their customers kind of know what to expect, right? Right. Uh and so you know, we're really only exposed to things that have been either stabilized or are made stable, which is why a lot of uh like you know, vodka flavors, no offense to them, but they all taste fake because they have to be fake because the real ones would be horribly unstable if they actually made it for real.
+
+[11:44] You know what I mean? Uh and so like a lot of the flavors that are used are in in liquors are dried dried herbs or things like citrus peels, things that have like after some initial movement after they're made, and they can usually be held by the companies long enough for that initial movement to happen, they eventually you know meld everything, gets along fine, and they're real relatively stable. Uh but part of the joy of making something yourself is to make things that uh are not stable now. Right. Uh one thing one thing I will also say is that um a lot of things are delicious.
+
+[12:17] Some things just are wretched while they're going through their awkward phase. It's like you know, it's like the middle school of uh of infusions. But it's uh, you know, a a lot of things taste good uh kind of all along, but just are different at er every step of the way. Usually you you love something when it's fresh because that's why you made it because it was delicious when it was fresh, right? I mean that's kind of what happened.
+
+[12:38] You your your palate was geared to making something fresh, especially you're not used to tasting with a mind uh six or eight months from now because you don't know what's gonna happen, right? So you like this stuff that's fresh, and then as it changes, almost invariably you like it a little bit less as it starts to change uh initially if you really liked it at the get go. And that's when you need to like uh keep in your in your like in your mind and your in your heart that this stuff might get good again later. Um I think that the when people write recipes, I think that they make uh uh huge mistakes when they talk about um uh things that need to be aged, with the exception of things that are kind of dangerous until they age out. I think uh, you know, they know because they've made it a million times, uh, that you know, they might as well not taste it between now and you know, in a couple of months when it's when it's ready.
+
+[13:28] The truth of the matter is when you're learning, you should taste a little bit uh as you go so that you can kind of get a feel for kind of what's changing and then get a feel for what you like and what what the stability is, because that's really the only way to to learn. If you you know, if you if you just put something down and then don't taste it again and then y y you don't know what's happening. No, that makes sense. And what I was planning on doing is actually letting it uh letting this batch age for a couple months uh and taste it as it goes and then make a fresh batch in a couple months from now and then actually be able to taste them side by side uh two month old versus a fresh uh extract and uh mature. So uh Okay, so it's not uh it's not an old life's tale that uh that something's happening to even just a simple syrup and uh and an alcohol extract happening over time.
+
+[14:12] Yes, some things are pretty dang stable, but a lot of things move. So it's also recipe by recipe. And I'll and I don't know whose recipe you're you're following, but you know, it's also a habit that you have if let's say you make a lot of infusions and it's been your experience that these things like move around and aren't really stabilized for um you know like a couple of months, then you just start writing into all of your recipes to do that, whether or not you've actually tested it for that particular item or not. You see what I'm saying? And the same thing, by the way, goes for every recipe that cooks right, uh chefs right, or even you know, like uh like bloggers, anything like this.
+
+[14:49] Once you have some experience in your life that leads you to believe uh you know that X, Y, or Z procedure is what you need to do, then even if you don't maybe even sometimes do it yourself, you just include it in every recipe you ever write so that uh nobody comes back and like, but you can tell people to age it and it needs to be aged. Even if you haven't tested, I swear, like I do this, you know what I mean? It's uh it's just a sad fact of the way uh the world works that you have to present these complete recipes to people for everything for foods, for drinks, and and uh and you have to guard against these kind of uh attacks or or worse, like having someone think that your recipe is bad. And so you include things in in recipes that you haven't actually tested on that particular recipe. Or if you have tested, you haven't tested an A B where you left that step out.
+
+[15:35] It's just uh the it's the nature of the beast. Awesome. All right, well, thanks so much. All right, let's know how it works. Talk to you later.
+
+[15:41] All right, so back back to this cordial. So you so uh where we left off was this. If you take 50% uh lime juice, right? Now lime juice is uh we clarify first, obviously, it's six percent acidity, okay? And now you add uh sugar, you add the equal uh weight of sugar, assuming that the lime juice has no sugar in it, which is a little bit of a lie, you have a 50-50 simple syrup that's acidic, right?
+
+[16:04] It's a cordial. Uh now what's the inherent problem in that? Since you weren't listening to me, I'll tell you. Right? Uh the problem is that if what you want, when if most a lot of the drinks that I make have roughly equal amounts of uh one-to-one simple syrup and uh like lime or lemon juice in it, right?
+
+[16:27] One to one. If anything, there's a little more acidity, a little more lime juice or a little more sugar than there is uh sorry, a little more lime juice or a little more lemon juice than there is simple syrup, right? Right. Problem is if you if you put a half ounce of that cordial into a drink, it contains the same amount of sugar as a half ounce of uh of simple syrup, right? Does that make sense?
+
+[16:50] Okay. Okay. Does it contain the same amount of acid as a half ounce of lime juice? No. No, why?
+
+[16:56] It's more? Because it's more. No, because there's more sugar in there. The sugar is taking up some of the space. So you have to add some extra acidity in the form of citric and malic acid back to the cordial to get the acidity such that the uh that it has the actual acidity of lime juice.
+
+[17:12] So what we do is we dope this or orange juice. Normally you have to add uh 32 uh grams of uh citric acid and 20 grams of malic acid to every liter of uh orange juice to have it have the same acidity as lime. Uh but you have to add a little more to make up for the space that the that the sugar is taking up, and then when you pour uh an acid adjusted or double adjusted in the case of orange uh cordial, every half ounce of that stuff is the same as pouring half ounce of simple syrup and a half ounce of um of like acid, like lime juice. Uh but uh you've only you you've added half ounce ounce less of total liquid. Get it, get it, got it, good.
+
+[17:54] You know what else? I had a question about New Orleans. Should I just deal with the question about New Orleans now? Yep. You didn't do anything interesting?
+
+[18:00] No cooking interesting, nothing? Nina? Nada? Nothing. Did you did you leave the city?
+
+[18:05] No. You were trapped in the city with this like dead heat? Yeah. You couldn't borrow borrow your buddy's car that you paid to fix? No.
+
+[18:13] All right. So uh Steve from Los Angeles is going to uh New Orleans, and he said, uh, I'm going to be in New Orleans this coming weekend. Unfortunately, I'm missing out on Tales of the Cocktail. Are there any new, new, the key here is these new bars or restaurants you saw this year that I should check out? Steve from Los Angeles.
+
+[18:31] Well, I actually only went to one um new restaurant because I only had really I had two dinners there. One was a spirited award where it's not like a normal spirited uh uh dinner where it tells the cocktail you go and like it's paired with like it's not a normal dinner, right? Uh but the second one I went to was at a new place. Get this. It's uh I didn't even know he had done this.
+
+[18:50] Uh you know John Besch out of New Orleans? Yeah, so John Besch teamed up with Aron Sanchez, you know, from here, and they have a restaurant called Johnny Sanchez. Johnny Sanchez. And uh uh Miles Landrum, who is uh knows Nick Wong, our are you know one of my favorite interns of all time who's at the French culinary is now at Sambar, uh is they went to school together, and so he's the uh exec there, so uh I went there. It was good.
+
+[19:13] You know what they had that I like? First of all, for some reason in New Orleans, like uh ever since uh Cushon, which is like one of the famous uh uh you know favorite restaurants that we you know go to down there down there, like pig ears and like they're big on pig ears and pig parts. So you know chili killis, right? Mm-hmm. So these guys, instead of using tortillas, they do like a pig ear chili killis.
+
+[19:34] What do you think? I don't know. What do you think? That's a good thing. I thought it was good, what chillichillis?
+
+[19:38] No, pig ears. I love pig ears, and uh I I love chilli killers. So, like doing an interpretation, like a chili killis interpretation with pig ears, I thought was good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, that we also had uh we had some squash blossoms, and we were we were we were we were saying how ridiculously uh you know how squash blossoms here, it's like so sad when you go down in Mexico and there's billions and billions of squash blossoms for almost nothing, but it was good, very good.
+
+[20:03] Yeah. So that's the only new place I recommend, I I can recommend it. I didn't get to go to um uh what's it called? Shaya, the uh which is not named after Shia LaBeouf, which is the place where they make their own pita everyone goes crazy for. I didn't get to go.
+
+[20:15] But uh, you know what I like? Do you like tourist things in Stasia? Like sometimes? Sometimes. Do you know what?
+
+[20:20] Like everyone, when they go down there, there's a place called I don't even remember the name of it. I go to the central grocery that they make them the muffoletta that that's the one that all the tourists go to, right? And all the locals, they're like, You're a jerk. Why are you going to the place that all the tourists go? You gotta have our mufflet, our this, that, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[20:35] Muffletas is sandwich they make in New Orleans, and it's all about the chopped up olives and and you know, pickles and stuff that goes in the in the in the it's all about that with this giant, giant huge loaf of bread with the sesame's on top. It looks like a giant overgrown sesame bun with like uh, you know, the meats and the cheeses and then the chopped up olives, olives and petbus, and like uh pickle stuff on it, right? But you know what? Freaking, it's good. A crap on you.
+
+[20:59] I enjoy it. Crap on all of you haters out there who just because, like, you know, since, you know, since whenever this has been the place people go, so what? It's still good. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:13] Here's another thing. I don't know whether you knew this. New Orleans, Louisiana, is possibly the like apogee, the height of personal injury lawyer advertising. I turned on, uh I was waking up in the morning getting dressed, so I turned on the TV, and it was one of these shows where everyone's trying to figure out who the dad is and nobody knows. There's like eight guys up on stage and nobody knows which one's the dad, and they have a paternity test, and there's all sorts of screaming and yelling and bouncers and stuff like that.
+
+[21:42] Moripovich. And uh and the commercials for the personal injuries attorneys are just amazing. It's like almost like uh it's an art form. The my favorite, there's a there's a guy Morris Bart, which is the one that that remember it was in the news a while ago that this kid was obsessed with this personal injury attorney and they wanted him to come to his birthday party, but he wouldn't come, but he sent a life-size cutout of himself and like a pen. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:08] So this kid's birthday party. But there's a there's uh an attorney there named Chip Forestall, who's got like this like polished, like bald head. And go online and look up Chip Forestall videos. He's hired all of these local Louisiana uh musicians to sing various renditions of Chip Forstall Chip Forestall, he's a man of integrity, and he wants to be your attorney. He knows the law, Chip forestall, takes care of it all, personal injuries, big or small.
+
+[22:40] But he do it, they do it in Dixie Land jazz. There's a rap one that's not on the line yet because that's the one I saw down there. There's like uh there's like some sort of like Mardi Gras version. They have like uh they have a gospel version of Chip Forestall takes care of it all with like real musicians. It's the craziest thing.
+
+[22:55] Like I went down there thinking that Selino and Barnes was kind of the height of personal injury uh attorney advertisement. Because Nastasi and I, to give you an idea of what our actual life is like, we never discuss anything serious. We just we'll sit down uh we'll silence for like an hour or so, like staring into the distance with dead eyes, and then all of a sudden we'll just start singing the Seleno and Barnes song. Seleno and Barnes, right? Injury attorneys, right?
+
+[23:21] Give me some 800 what? 777 No! 888888. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll sing it.
+
+[23:28] Call late. Anyway, so uh anyway, so I feel bad. Yet another thing that in New York you think you're the best at something, and you go somewhere else, and it turns out that we are mere infants, children, like weaklings when it comes to personal injury lawyer advertisement. And I found out I think why. In uh in New Orleans, I looked it up, I was so intrigued by it that I looked it up.
+
+[23:50] And when you it turns out that in New Orleans, uh and in the parishes down there in uh Louisiana, the judges that are hearing these cases are elected, right? Right. So they need to have campaign and get this. Unlike any other state in the union, the threshold for a jury trial for this stuff is fifty thousand dollars. So any case that's below fifty thousand dollars, let's say 49,999, people like Chip Forestall get to go directly in front of a judge who they're allowed to contribute to their campaigns regularly, and they need to get elected and be like, hey, yo, judge, why don't we settle this for like 4995?
+
+[24:27] You know what I mean? Like 49k, then you know, I'll give you some money, we'll all get out of here. This guy'll get his money, boom. Hence uh you have such awesome uh advertisements. Uh I think it's worth it.
+
+[24:39] Anyway, I don't know. A little bit, a little bit of legal aside for break. Wait, you want to take a break? We'll drink some meat and we'll come back with more cooking issues? Yeah, we gotta call her then too.
+
+[24:47] Oh, we got a colour. I'll take the caller and then we'll go to the house. Oh, you wanna know? Okay. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:44] Alright, caller, you're on the air. Uh hi, how you doing? Doing all right. This is uh this is Shane here. I'm calling from from Dublin, Ireland.
+
+[24:57] Oh hey. Good good to hear from you. How's it going over there? Great. It's uh it's gray and cloudy as usual.
+
+[25:03] Oh my favorite. I love that. Yeah, gray and cloudy, man. I wish I could live in a place that was always gray and cloudy. Yeah.
+
+[25:10] Um listen, I love the show. You guys are great. I've learned a lot. Thanks. What do you what do you what do you got for us?
+
+[25:15] What do you what do you uh what are you calling about? I'm um I'm trying I'm looking at uh restaurant equipment and uh I'm doing a lot of low temperature cooking. And I want to um get some equipment in I can't for searing for searing meats and vegetables and I can't use charcoal because fire restrictions and it's difficult. I just wanted to know if you have any recommendations for for other equipment that would be good. Like a a cast iron pan is too small for my for the volume I'll be doing, so like I looked at induction planches and things like this, and I don't know if you have any recommendations for good searing equipment that's not charcoal.
+
+[26:01] It's hard. So uh are are you allowed to have and I don't know what the economics that are there, but do you have natural gas or or not even natural gas? Uh I might have natural gas. I'm I'm trying to get the lines installed. So I might and I might not.
+
+[26:16] So I'm I'm I'm interested in both natural gas and electric. Okay, so the the the deal is I mean any time you're gonna do like heavy searing work on on low temperature, no matter what the source of uh uh of the heat is, you're gonna make a a crap ton of uh smoke. And so you're gonna need like regardless of what the regulations are or anything else, you're gonna need really good ventilation. So that's just a given. I'm just gonna stipulate that right there.
+
+[26:42] Um the i it's it's hard. So like in the in New York where now like they allow certain things they didn't used to, what everyone used to do in the tra uh it back in the day was they would have these uh these gas these gas grill situations, right? And then they would just uh the the manufacturers knew you would do this, you would just throw wood on top of the gas and just get it completely roaring. But then whenever obviously someone was coming in to inspect, it's just a gas, uh it's just gas, you know what I mean? And you would throw on wood in quotes for smoking.
+
+[27:16] You know what I mean? And then that would uh that's how you kind of get around it and those guys would jack the heat um that way. Um a lot in terms of your I mean if you can get gas, uh and you're gonna do a lot of this work, I would invest in like a deck broiler and the the deck broilers are just like a salamander, but they're stacked like it's like it's like three salamanders stacked together and it's much more than three times as powerful because if you've ever used a salamander, you just have that sweet spot right in the middle and then it kind of radiates out, whereas like the deck broiler, you have a giant sweet spot and it you can they really scream. They really scream. Uh and so I would recommend something like that, but that's only gonna work kind of in an overfired situation.
+
+[28:00] So if you're looking to finish um you know uh and you want to go electric, I don't have a lot of experience doing um hardcore searing on uh I've never used, for instance, an induction um plancha. I've never used it. Yeah. Um so I can't really um speak to it. I'd say that think a lot about what you're I mean, any electric thing that you use, I've never used, and I've used some of them, I've never used an electric broiler that was worth spit.
+
+[28:35] You know what I mean? Um there's not enough um power output. I mean the good news about using induction is it's so efficient in terms of heat delivery to the to the pan or or the or the plancher or the griddle if it's specifically built that way, that um you know, even though you know you only have a certain amount of power you can suck out of the wall, it's providing a lot of that power to actually uh to heat the food item that you're that you're talking about. Um now the when you're doing low temperature uh cooking, uh as I'm sure you're aware, one of the main issues on the finish is that uh unlike a traditional pan sear that you do before um before your your cooking, or if you're gonna pan sear and then finish in the oven, traditional style, um the meat when you put it in is pretty or whatever it is, it's is pretty floppy and can make good contact with the surface of the pan and or the griddle or the whatever. And what that means is you get a nice even um even sear off uh on the thing and it makes a lot of smoke.
+
+[29:37] However, if you're doing a post sear and you put that same piece of meat onto a griddle, then you're gonna have very dark marks exactly where you're touching the pan, but unless you have a pretty hardcore weight on it, right? Uh you're not gonna have an even um an even sear across it. So how do we get around that? We paint a lot of oil on the on the meat, and we try to hope that there's some sort of connection between you know bridging the oil to the meat, but then as soon as you do that, you now have a lot lot more uh smoke than you did back back in back in the day. Back before, you know, back, you know, uh old style.
+
+[30:12] So i i you can't really mean you can get it to work that way, but you can't really uh win that way. And what happens is is if you're sitting there in kitchen and you have only screaming pans, you're constantly having to wipe it out uh because just the amount of oil that you have to put on it is just uh you know kind of i intense. Now, some people uh you know, like we used to when we're doing duck breasts when we were cooking low temp, we made very, very sure that when we put them in the bag, we flattened it all out so that then when we took the duck breast and put it in the pan afterwards to do the crisp up on the skin, that it was all gonna be in contact and it would it would render right. But if you don't, you're pretty much hosed, right? Some pieces of uh some products, and I know that you know pe people get mad at me about it sometimes, sometimes the best way to do is to deep fry it.
+
+[30:57] You know, if you're you deep fry it, uh you get like instant sear all the way around. Uh and the problem with it is is that nobody notices as long as your oil is impeccable. But when you do a fry finish on something and like a steak, and the oil is even a little bit over, it's like it gets kind of it gets kind of ugly because they start to taste that oil on the outside. If um if not, then as soon as you pull it out of the fryer, if the oil is good, you have you know, someone wrapped a towel around it, get the excess uh uh uh fat off, you know, grease off the outside, and by the time you cut it, no one ever knows that it's been in oil. They just want to know why the crust is so nice.
+
+[31:39] That is particularly useful on things like lamb racks, which are very hard to post-finish and hard to get a nice uh crust on the outside without overcooking using um low temperature kind of techniques. So in my mind, things like lamb racks, big bone-in pieces like that work extremely well in the deep fryer, but you just have to I mean, like people don't like to think about it, and also they don't like uh you have to make sure that your oil is impeccable. So those are kind of what what I'd use. There's no question that an induction um an induction range can get cast iron pans hot enough. The problem with the cast iron pan on the induction range is, and I think we talked about this last week or the week before, is you really have to not like have it screaming right away because you'll notice on most induction things that you that you use.
+
+[32:29] I mean, uh maybe the commercial ones, I haven't checked their burner pattern, but the burner pattern on inductions is relatively small. And so they tend to work well on um things that have a big uh fast conduct uh heat conductive surface. So, like the uh aluminum sandwich pans that have like the slug in them that the induction works with or the stainless that the induction works with, and then they have an aluminum uh big billet, and that aluminum spreads the heat out relatively uh quickly, so you don't get major, major hot spots um with the induction. With it with cast iron, um you're gonna tend to heat the local area and it's gonna take longer for it to be totally even. Now, that point is moot if you have it on the induction thing for like five minutes and heating up, but then you know, you have something that's screaming hot all the time, and unless you're gonna chill it in between or let it cool down in between uh orders, which isn't really feasible in like a heavy environment, like when you're gonna get an order in, you don't necessarily want to have to keep your pan going up and down and up and down.
+
+[33:30] So most you know, most people want like if they're having a griddle, they want a high heat griddle uh uh uh you know that or a plancha that's running now. You know, the advantage there, uh you know, and the reason plonches are so good is they can stay really hot, but remember plonches drain the grease down and out. So, you know, a quick uh you know, you take your your your spatula and you scrape off the extra grease, and now you're not smoking up your whole kitchen with the extra grease from before while you're waiting for the next order to come in. Um but that said plonches aren't designed for uh searing meats that have already been cooked. You can like a little squeezy bottle of oil.
+
+[34:03] So you take a little squeezy bottle of oil and then shh, you know, hit it and it can it can work, but you just have to get some practice. If you have a buddy that has one, I would definitely go to use it before you invest in it to make sure it fits your cooking style. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So just quickly then uh on the I mean I see a lot of a lot of planches and units and giving different surface temperatures, like two thirty degrees, this is Celsius and two fifty degrees, and for a conduction heat source, do you know what kind of what kind of temperature I'd be looking for for a post?
+
+[34:38] I'll do a pre-sear to help the unevenness of the meat issues. Right. Hopefully. Right. And I'll do a post here.
+
+[34:45] I did uh so on the cooking issues blog, I think it's there. I might I might not have put that picture up, and I I'll go look at it again. I I once did a test where I was actually testing the cert the temperature of the cast iron uh during the thing to look at what uh and this is on a standard old cast iron pan, you know, like maybe fifty, sixty years old, trying to figure out like what the best initial temperature is. Um Greg Blonder actually, who called into the show his uh his blog with uh you know, he did a test and he has I think I think with Meathead Goldwyn when he was on the show, uh, you know, he did a test with a probe underneath showing that in most cases the temperature drops very quickly right at the surface um you know because obviously it has to boil water off. Um and so you know he seems to think his he seems to think it doesn't matter if that you get that that hot.
+
+[35:34] My the research that I did shows that an initial very high heat in the pan does help. So I was getting the stuff up into the range of like 500 and or something which is which is uh see 400 is 360 is 200, right? So I was getting I was probably getting up to like yeah two I was probably getting up in you know closer to what were you saying like two sixty two what were you saying? Uh they were it's it's it ranges from two twenty to maybe two fifty is the ones I've seen. Yeah I mean I I never the ability to go hotter is always better because you can always turn it down right but my you know uh it was i I had to wait until these things got very very hot before I started seeing diminishing returns.
+
+[36:18] I mean eventually you get you know obviously what's called the the Leidenfrost effect and it takes a l you know a little longer for it even to know that it's searing right that's like I can stick my hand in liquid nitrogen and pull it out because um because of vapor forms. But in actuality what tends to happen is is that the your plancha is a slug of uh of metal you put the meat down on it and like you get uh it chills it right there eventually and then you have to wait for the heat to come back in order to get up to its temperature. So they're they're storing heat a little bit. I know some people have moved to very, very thin plonches, which work almost, I guess, like a like a Mexican comal. And those things don't store as much energy.
+
+[36:55] And so then uh they're relying a lot more on how much energy you're you're combusting in heat to get their incredibly quick recovery rather than a thermal mass that allows it to recover. So you can kind of play either way. But I'll say this, and I might have said this on air, but uh I remember it was well over a decade ago. I interviewed uh Jose Andreas uh relatively uh soon after he had opened um Atlantico and I was doing an article on planches for uh Food Arts magazine at the time, and he said uh I said to him, and you know, I knew all about planches, and I knew that they had this like you know, a central heat, and then it would spread out and it was colder, and so people could then you know spatially arrange the stuff that wanted lower heat uh over on the edge of the plancha and stuff that wanted higher heat or searing heat in the middle of the plancha, right? Sounds familiar, that's how plancha is supposed to work.
+
+[37:41] And he says, No, I just buy uh a griddle and I set the uh and so uh you know the American griddles have like uh the one he had had four zones, four different burners, right? So I'm assuming he sets one side uh high and then the other side low, and then he has a gradient he can move back because that's the way most people who use griddles, that's how they think, right? So they have this spatial organization of heat, much like a French uh uh flattop hot, you know, uh um and he was like, Oh no, absolutely not. I set the entire griddle to one temperature. I was like, what are we freaking crazy?
+
+[38:12] And he's like, No, I write all of my recipes such that everything only requires one temperature. And I was like, Oh, all right. You know what I mean? And that kind of makes sense. So when you're doing a lot of low temperature work, you're not gonna need a lot of these little kind of warming zones or places you can let things ride.
+
+[38:26] You're gonna want a big, even screaming mother of of an object that you can just crank with. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Alrighty. Listen, well uh uh why don't you uh tweet or call on in, let us know uh what's going on.
+
+[38:40] But I definitely it's a huge recommendation. Don't trust anyone on their sales uh salesmanship uh on buying uh equipment. Go use this stuff. Everybody sells you a bill of goods, and it's almost impossible, especially when you're shopping for something that you're gonna have to cook with for years and years. And this goes whether you're gonna go buy a combi oven or anything like this.
+
+[38:58] Anyone will sell you anything, and everyone sounds good, and a lot of equipment is good. But the things I would ask your your friends or anyone around, how often does that sucker break with a piece of electrical equipment, especially if you're gonna go induction? Like ask a bunch of people that have used it, not for like a a week or for like you know, as Jeffrey Steingarten says, like, you know, all good knives are good, just like puppies, right? It's like you want to know how is that thing after a year? How many service calls do they have to have?
+
+[39:25] And if it breaks, like how fast are they gonna come in and fix it? Because you don't want to build your business around uh, you know, some sort of an induction range and then it's gonna die every uh week and a half. Now, old induction units used to die constantly, right? The reason being that no one had adequate cooling in them, and they would try to do things like put an induction range over an oven, and the heat would get so intense in the electronics that they would just fry. Now, I think the the modern inductions of the past you know six, seven years, they've probably uh dealt with a lot of that, you know, fixed a lot of that problem, but you want to make sure that that's not gonna be an issue for you because you don't want to be down unless you have a spare.
+
+[40:03] Uh also, you know, as um, you know, as they say here, you gotta make sure it's got uh you know enough power. You know what I mean? You gotta make sure that you like co like cooking with it. And so I highly recommend um finding one. Any good big equipment manufacturer has uh has someone that they can send you to to let you cook on it.
+
+[40:23] You know what I'm saying? And then you you know, like you know, they'll know who bought it in your area, and you can go uh check it out and see whether or not it suits it suits your your cooking style. You you do not want to be saddled with a system like that that and regret it in five or six months because you know you're you might have to live with it for years. Yeah. Great.
+
+[40:43] All right, well, I hope that's helpful. Very helpful. Thanks a lot. All right, thanks. All right, thanks.
+
+[40:48] Let's go to a quick commercial break. Nastassi and I are gonna crack some meat and come right back with cooking issues. Americans throw away 58 billion disposable cups every year. A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know.
+
+[41:25] But I'm Greg from Capow, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's a hundred percent U.S. made. You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at Kapow.com. C-U-P-P-O-W.com.
+
+[41:45] And we are back. All right, so uh David, tell me David, you want to come taste this mead? Absolutely. All right, and then bring a cup and then uh tell me a little bit about it. Uh I know nothing about it, so I'll just come and taste it.
+
+[41:57] All right, you come and taste it. And while you're tasting it, a uh shout out big thank uh big shout out, thank you uh for Neil Wallace for uh donating to uh Heritage Radio Network uh on behalf of the cooking issues uh broadcast. We appreciate it. Um all right, so while we're waiting for David to uh bring a cup in here to taste this, maybe I should I'll take care of this call. Oh wait, there's a call question.
+
+[42:14] Do I have a call? No, no call. Okay, question. So uh oh, before I do that, Russ, I'm not gonna let you uh let me tell deal with Russ first. Remind me to talk to you about uh Harold McGee and this this thing he's interested in, alright, Nastasia?
+
+[42:32] You remembering? Mm-hmm. It's gonna have a word that you're not gonna like, which I like. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[42:37] Uh Russ writes in from California. Uh hey, uh, hey guys. I'm 23, basically broke and love espresso. Been there, right? I mean, like, actually, I didn't really like espresso when I was 23.
+
+[42:49] I didn't really like it until I was almost 30. I didn't drink coffee in college. I drank tea. What about you? Uh uh I drank coffee in college.
+
+[43:00] Yeah. Did you like tea or just coffee? Just coffee. Really? Is it because all those people in California drink tea and you hated those people?
+
+[43:06] No. Just coffee head? Mm-hmm. All right. Um as I understand it, a special machine quality comes down to pressure and temperature control.
+
+[43:16] I'm glad that you didn't say 100% stability and you said uh control because back in the day when I was first starting, um, everyone thought that the best of everything was complete consistency across the board, right? So you want the temperature to be completely consistent across the shot. You want the pressure to be constent across uh across the shot. And in fact, we now know that um that's not the case and that it in general most people prefer um shots where there's gradients in in those uh things over the course of of the shot. Uh not everyone, most people, and uh the trick is being able to control and repeat it.
+
+[43:52] So, like certain of the large commercial machines were uh, you know, just made genius cups of espresso, not necessarily because they were um they kept everything the same throughout the shot, but just they repeatedly delivered the same profile of temperature and pressure. Anyway, okay, a little bit of an aside. Not really an aside, it's about the question, right? Unusually it's actually about the question and not about like the price of eggs or something like that. Uh supposedly, Ranchillio makes a machine that does a good job of this for about $700, and the people of the interweb seem to believe that everything cheaper is crap.
+
+[44:26] I'm assuming you're talking about the Ranchillo Rocky. Uh the Ranchillio Rocky is a good it's a good piece of equipment. I have one. Um it is uh the reason people uh like it is that it the bones of it are good, right? It's got a good boiler on it, it uses a good portafilter, um, and so like that stuff is relatively uh robust.
+
+[44:48] Uh also it's like an old school like American car in that when you open up the hood, there's not a lot of junk and garbage inside of there, so you can pretty much do whatever you want. So it became very early on, like you know, well, well over a decade ago, the machine to mod out, right? So the problem, and so then you know, people will put PID controls in, people put dual PID controls in, some people would add a second boiler to it. There's a lot of stuff out there, and there's a lot of people that have already walked down the road. In fact, you can buy kits to mod it.
+
+[45:17] And I have to say that uh a PID controlled uh Rocky, may I sorry, uh uh Sylvia. Did I say Rocky before? I meant Sylvia. Rocky's the grinder. Uh Ranchillo Silvia is um it's a good machine, it makes a good cup of coffee.
+
+[45:31] It is a pain in the behind if you also like milk in your coffee. I don't, but my wife's a milk and coffee person, and because it's not dual boiler, you have to uh always like turn it on to steam, let it steam up, and then you have to get the temperature back down by pushing water through the uh through the group head and then let it stabilize again and then blah blah blah blah blah. So you know if you're making you're 23 and you're broke, if you're also single and or and or nobody in your house likes anything but espresso, uh uh the the Sylvia is good, but apparently it's too expensive uh right because you're basically broke. All right. Now, uh so then you say uh you took a question a while back about the rock ROK espresso maker, which goes for $150.
+
+[46:14] I can't remember what you said about it. Well, I haven't used it, right? Uh I can't remember what you said about it, but the consensus seems to be that it is possible to get a good espresso from it. However, it is difficult, if not impossible, to do so consistently as the pressure is regulated by hand. Uh I'm considering buying one and adding a spring to the system to regulate the pressure.
+
+[46:31] I have a machine shop at my disposal and can do this with relative ease, but I wanted to get your take on whether or not it would work well potentially before wasting the time and money involved. Uh also any tips on lucking into a professional espresso machine at auction for almost no money as you did would be much appreciated. Thanks, Russ from California. All right. So, first of all, let me let me tackle these in reverse order.
+
+[46:50] So buying something at uh an auction is a really good way to go. What you need to find is an auction where nobody else there wants a piece of equipment. So usually the way you do that is you find something. So if you go on eBay, you can buy an espresso machine commercial uh that is broken for some reason or another. And then if you're willing to fix it or go through the trouble of fixing it, then uh then you can do it.
+
+[47:14] I would make a hundred percent sure that the parts are available, like get to know someone, because parts on an espresso machine can get very, very expensive very quickly. But for instance, let's say there's an espresso machine out there and the pump is broken. Most people who service espresso machines know how easy it is to get a new pump, and so you wouldn't get a big discount because they would buy it and just fix the pump rather than give you something for free. But maybe you find some knucklehead who has a machine and just wants to get rid of it at an auction. So you what you need to go into a restaurant auction is patience.
+
+[47:48] People on the on the web that the general consensus was that home people, you should just forget about making espresso, right? And the only people that were making uh espresso at home with machines that they liked were the people who were using the um uh the Europiccolos, the the hand uh lever machines. Now, um so there you have it. Um the rock, uh I guess it's pronounced rock, what it is is like a dual what would you describe this motion, Nastasia? This um like the Hulk when the Hulk's going ah and he lifts up by his shoulders and then tries to make his pecs huge by going down, it's that kind of emotion.
+
+[48:27] You're grabbing two handles and you're pushing down to provide the pressure, and you're pushing a piston down into uh into a column of water that's heated and then in in through the uh in through the uh ground espresso. Now uh in actuality, uh some of the best, in fact, still the best cups of coffee that I've had, uh espresso have been out uh some of the best, have been out of lever machines, and they're working on uh springs. So springs are good. The problem with modifying the spring on that machine is that um how would you do it? You have to pull up on it, right?
+
+[49:01] And then if you have the spring pulling, the easiest way to do it would be to have springs pulling the handles down, but then you're gonna have a difficult time levering them up and then holding them there for the infusion section and then letting them go. So it's possible that you could, I guess, make some sort of crossbow scenario where you just lift it up and then crank something up and use that to kind of pull it down. Yeah, it looks kind of like a bow motion. So you've got like 30 seconds. Oh, geez.
+
+[49:25] All right, all right, all right. Listen. Uh listen. I'll get I'll get back. Russ, we'll deal again next week because I also talked to you.
+
+[49:30] You need to spend money on a grinder. We need to worry about grinder as much as you do about machine. So I'll get back to that. So tell me a little bit about the mead. David, tell me quickly about the mead.
+
+[49:38] Uh it's delicious. Notes of popcorn at the end. Yeah, it's uh it's it's okay. It's not as dry as it uh, but it's not clonally sweet either. I think it's good.
+
+[49:46] I would have this one after dinner. What about you, Nastas? No, it's what what are your issues? Some flavor, some some flavor in it. I don't like the spicy one.
+
+[49:55] I like it. It's a it's but you don't think I think it's from the I think it's from the that's the honey. That's you just that's the note of the honey. Give a shout out to the company again, David. Noah's Vice Metery in New Jersey.
+
+[50:04] Noah's Vice Metery, thank you. And uh I I enjoy it. I'm gonna have some more uh during lunch. And on the way out, let me just say this. I was with Harold McGee.
+
+[50:11] All of you go on the New York uh botanical garden, uh go to their corpse flower cam. There's a rare corpse flower that's about to bloom any day now, and hopefully Harold and I are gonna go. It smells like rotting flesh. It's a close relative of the same thing that makes conjac. Uh and the name of it is ready for it, Nastasia?
+
+[50:28] The name of the genus. It's the largest inflorescence in the world, in the world, amorpho thallus titanum. Amorphophallus titanum. Because if your phallus is gonna be poorly formed, you at least want it to be Titanic. Cooking issues.
+
+[50:52] Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[51:17] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:30] I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives. I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. I like hosting my show because to me it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious. Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling. Please become a member today at Heritage Radio Network.org.com.
+
+[1:17] I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from I don't know, like, you know, around 12, 12, 15, something like this.
+
+[1:47] From a bird's pitcher in Bushwick. Oh yeah. Uh today we have already in the studio, as usual, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? Good.
+
+[2:02] Yeah. You got David in the booth. What up? Nothing. Uh we're waiting on.
+
+[2:07] So, by the way, I was having one of my usual unpleasant uh uh text exchanges with Nastasia earlier this morning, and I was saying, I think we should change your name from the hammer to the to the pit bull because it's the biting for no reason. Look, oh, I shouldn't go that way. Like, biting for no reason. I shouldn't make a joke at Pitbull's expense. Do you know that pit bulls like are like so discriminated against that uh basically in the New York, and this is what made me think of it in the New York City shelter system, right?
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+[2:36] Almost I mean, uh I don't know about the public shelters, but in like the private shelters, like uh by the way, I just got another dog over the like over the weekend. Nastasia's doing her her uh like moron headshake. Is that the moron headshake? Yeah, the moron headshake. I mean, it's not a she's not mad at me, it's not like a vegan face, it's just a moron headshake.
+
+[2:56] Anyways, so I went to go get this dog, and um apparently any small dog can get adopted here. Any uh it basically pits can't get adopted and pit mixes, and so you know, if you can, you should adopt a pit mix. Why didn't you? I needed a s like look, I already have a dog, a large dog. The odds that like I would it I would get the okay, get the high sign for adopting another large dog, roughly zero.
+
+[3:27] You know, I think my kids like are old enough now to take on a dog that has some territorial, you know, like uh traits, whereas like when they were a lot younger, you know, you get a little nervous of having any kind of territorial dog around. So the like the lab was awesome, which is also sheltered dog, is awesome. But like um, at this point they can handle it, but I you know I couldn't handle the big so it's this min miniature, like they I said, uh what do you think the mix is? The guy goes, Heinz 57. Because it's just like a like a mixed mutton.
+
+[3:55] But anyway, if any of you are in the New York area and want to go to a shelter, I highly recommend Sean Casey Animal Rescue in Brooklyn. You can just go walk dogs, uh you you know, you show them your driver's license and you just walk dogs, you don't need to take one. But if you're a dog person and you show up and you start walking dogs, be aware that there's a high likelihood that you'll end up with one. Do you know what I mean? Because they're cute.
+
+[4:16] Dogs are dogs are dogs are cute. This guy looks like a little miniature version of my lab, even though it's like I don't think there's any lab in it. So Dax, my young son, was walking the small dog, and I was walking the big dog, and it's like a mini me walking a mini version of my other dog. It's kind of it's kind of crazy. Not that called mini me?
+
+[4:36] No, there's like a thing for that. There's a thing for a shrunken version of you and your dog walking next to you down the street? No. Man, they didn't teach me that in vocabulary school. Hey Dave, we got a caller on the line.
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+[4:48] It's John Carson, who is Chef Emily Peterson's father has a question for you. Wow, nice. How you doing? Uh welcome welcome to the uh to the show. What's uh what's up?
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+[5:04] Sure. We use we use Heinz ketchup and used to use gold horseradish. Right. And there's a assortment of other ingredients, which you may or may not need to know for for this. But when you would make the cock, that it would be about the consistency of ketchup.
+
+[5:24] And you could put that in the refrigerator overnight and take it out the next day, and it would still be the same consistency change. Right. A friend of mine gave me homemade horseradish that he makes. And I I did everything exactly the same. When you put the the cocktail sauce in the refrigerator, 24 hours later, it it has coagulated.
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+[5:49] It's as it's like as solid as jello. Huh. And why is that happening? That is very interesting. I don't know.
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+[5:56] So go so like Gold's, I haven't purchased uh Gold's in a while. For those of you that don't remember, Gold's is like it's the tall, skinny bottle uh, and it comes in either with beet or without beet, uh horseradish uh grated that you get in um in in supermarkets. It's like the brand that like we all grew up with. I don't I'm trying to remember the label on Gold's. Does it is it gold's have anything in it, or is it just shredded horseradish?
+
+[6:22] Don't do they vinegar it. There's vinegar in it. Emily actually read the ingredients, and there's nothing that and she thought it could have something to do with the in the and that the acidity level in the homemade horseradish was different. But I don't, you know, I don't know. But this is uh the guy who makes the horseradish, he knew that was gonna happen.
+
+[6:48] And he said it's not as bad as if if you use Hunts ketchup, but you know, why would you use Hunts? That's crazy. Yeah, well here's here's my here's my only theory. You you're does your friend not add anything? No offense to Hunt's, but I mean Heinz is the ketchup, please.
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+[7:03] Anyway, um does your friend not add anything to the horseradish? Is it No, it's his in his horseradish, it's very simple. It's it's horseradish. There's no beets added, so it's horseradish, right? Vinegar, pepper, salt, and a little bit of sugar, and that's it.
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+[7:23] Huh. See, here's what I here's what I'm thinking. Um my guess, and this is just a guess, is that uh there's a lower liquid content in your buddy's uh horseradish and straight up, that if you add a little bit of vinegar when you did it, that it would all turn out. There are two things that I think could be happening here. I don't believe Gold's horseradish is pasteurized, but I'm not sure.
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+[7:44] In which case, if it's like a pectin leaking thing, that could be an issue, but but I but I don't know. Um my guess is it's a liquid thing. Ketchup is very, very is it's basically it's what's called like a thyxotropic uh liquid. So that under under shear uh under shear ketchup is acts like a liquid, and when it's not under shear, it acts like uh a solid, right? And my guess is that the horseradish is um is that horseradish with a certain amount of liquid keeps that thyxotropic balance the same.
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+[8:17] Because remember, horseradish is also fibrous, so it's gonna add some stability uh or could add stability almost like fiberglass to it. And then if the liquid level is a little bit higher, it'll go liquidy very quickly as ketchup does. And if the liquid balance is lower, then it'll set up even uh firmer. By the way, we now have in the studio who can also win and weigh in on your question, uh Harold Harold McGee, the master blaster of science in the in the as it as it relates to the delicious. So Harold, the question we have on see whether you have anything else.
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+[8:46] I know you heard the tail end of what I was saying. Hey, hey, I heard you I hear you heard the tail end of what I was saying there, but uh the question was we have a a horseradish, uh we have a cocktail sauce made with uh everything else remains the same, Hein's ketchup and you know uh whatever other you know flavor adjustments are added to it and either the store bought Gold's brand which is the East Coast brand which you may remember uh might be West Coast too of prepared horseradish versus someone else's homemade horseradish and the home homemade horseradish makes it set solid into a gel and my guess is it's just that the cocktail sauce is extremely sensitive to liquid balance. Huh sets into a gel that's a new one on me. Yeah I mean I don't know of any I don't know of any um uh special hydrocolloid in horseradish that uh you know may or may not be activated although I could be wrong. I I don't know about that either but I do know that horseradish has a very active uh peroxidase enzyme and that might be doing something that allows crosslinking that wouldn't otherwise take place.
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+[9:54] Well is is the store bought horseradish um pasteurized? That's the question. I bet I mean how how else would it be shelf stable? I mean it's horseradish I don't know I mean I buy it's refrigered it it's refrigerated but when you buy gold it's definitely in the refrigerated but it may be pasteurized and the pasteurization may you know stop some of whatever they are the the the the from and this gels it gels I mean it it's not you know it's just it's not just like it's thicker. It's I mean there's a there's a chemical reaction going on here that it you know it it's it's it's a solid mess.
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+[10:32] Well tomatoes are full of pectin, so uh I you know I don't know much about horseradish, but I mean if there is some sort of cross linking going on, I mean that's plausible, I guess. So you're saying that that's you know, you're lucky that Harold stopped by Yeah, and and that's gotta be something what it is. I'm gonna check and see if the gold is pasteurized. And if that's it, you know, and and then the other thing is do you care? I mean I've I've experimented around with just adding a little water to it the next day and mixing it up and it and it comes back and it's fine, but I was just curious why why that happens.
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+[11:08] You know, and it's gotta be something like that. That the the it's some kind of reaction with the pectin in the ketchup. Hmm. Well, so yeah, so like I would look uh we we could look into like Harold's thing and so I guess but you do say you add a little bit of water and it comes back. Yeah, yes.
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+[11:24] Yeah, that so that doesn't sound so much to me like crosslinking. Well, unless it just breaks unless you just unless adding liquid, you're literally just breaking it almost like you'd be making a fluid gel. In which case you're taking a light gel and breaking it, you know, into a into a fluid gel. After you break it and it comes back, does it hold peaks better than regular I mean cocktail sauce holds a peak pretty well as is because it's you know it's the th takes atropic things, so it's I I haven't I haven't really experimented with it that much. Hmm.
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+[11:54] One of those things now it's like a you can't scratch, I gotta figure this out. Yeah. Well, uh I don't know. I mean I I'll uh I'll try to remember over the uh over the week to do some searches on uh horseradish and uh and pectin and gelling, see whether I can figure anything out. You know, maybe Harold will too.
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+[12:10] I never know what you never know what's gonna pique Harold's interest. This sounds very interesting. So yeah, I'll I'll play around with it this weekend. Well we'll uh we'll uh we'll look into it. All right, well thanks.
+
+[12:20] It's a good one. All right, all right. I if necessary, I could send you some samples and and you can you can look at this. Yeah. I could drop some off at the radio station.
+
+[12:29] I go I go into Brooklyn about every other week, and I've actually been there on Emily's show a couple of times. I can make it a point of of I can bring you I tell you what I can do. I can bring you the ingredients and you can put it together and then you can you can watch it, Joe. That sounds great. I'll do it.
+
+[12:46] Yeah. And then you get some cocktail sauce out of the deal. Yeah, all right, which is you know always good. I like uh especially in the summertime. I know I like some uh cold shrimp and cocktail sauce.
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+[12:54] You like some cold shrimp and cocktail sauce, does it okay? Wait, you're not a fan of wait, is it a fan? You're not a fan of cocktail sauce? You're not a fan of cold shrimp. Both.
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+[13:01] I don't choose it, I'll eat it. I'll eat it. All right, all right. Well thanks. Another yet another thing.
+
+[13:05] Although this is better than normal Nastasia. She's like, I'll eat it. So before we get into the meat and potatoes of the show, and Harold's here, so I'm sure people are gonna want to call in for some Harold McGee style questions. A couple of things. One, Harold was here last week for impossible burger, erger, erger, erger.
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+[13:21] Right. And then you're actually here again for the impossible uh food group, right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[13:26] The sweet, and I don't know if anyone's gonna want to call in and ask questions about uh GMO, uh heme protein, uh vegetable, coconut you know, oil, um burger alloys. Sounds more and more delicious. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, but like it's interesting. Uh it's a it's like I think it's like of the level of like, you know, uh uh a mediocre hamburger, which is uh saying a lot.
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+[13:48] Yeah. Go going from scratch to that, yeah, is is impressive. And the thing is that they've got uh they're they're scientists. So this is you know, stage one, and they're gonna move on and on and on. Sure.
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+[14:00] It's like an incredibly impressive first effort, I would say. Yeah. That's what I would say. Yeah. And the the the blood note, the the the kind of sucking on iron note, bueno.
+
+[14:11] Did you taste it at time, Nastasia? No. Did you didn't go to that event with me? Okay. So that's one.
+
+[14:16] Two, uh, Harold's here last week and did not get to see the amorphophalus titanum, the the giant, even Titanic shapeless penis flower, the world's largest single inflorescence. The actual the largest branched inflorescence, Nastasia is not from uh uh in the Arms. It's actually in the Acacia, the palm family, as I was told by someone at the botanical garden. Uh-huh. Which is interesting because one, the the families sound very similar.
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+[14:45] But the uh or the orders, I guess. Anyway, but the um, yes, I saw it. Uh when I saw it, it was not at max by the way. So the interesting thing from a food perspective, and the reason why you bring it up is that uh amorphophalus uh uh titanum is uh or titanum, I don't know, is like first cousin. And by the way, the flower in the wild gets to be about inflorescence, it's not a single flower, but gets to be about twelve feet tall in Sumatra, where it comes from.
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+[15:10] And uh it's pollinated by uh carrion flies and whatnot. And so it smells, and this one smells uh a lot actually like rotting mouse, is what it smells like. It smells like rotting mouse. But it it's it's like first cousin, uh if you consider genus relations cousins, it's first cousin to conjac, like what you make conjac out of uh the the food stuff, which also smells, but it's apparently a much more heady brew of scents, according to docs that you sent me, right, Harold? That's right, yeah.
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+[15:39] I don't remember exactly what the mix is for conjac, but uh but it's it's the the inflorescence, right? So the the root itself, does it need deodorizing before it's used? No, no, no, no, no. It uh literally it doesn't smell until it opens up and uh it produces the stink in the inflorescence, and in fact, um the inflorescence itself, uh a portion of it will heat up, I guess due to um you know to metabolic activity will heat up a couple degrees above ambient to help release of the waft. Um Do you think you would have wanted to see that, St.
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+[16:14] I didn't I didn't even invite you because I figured you wouldn't even that's not your jam, right? You like flowers but not rotting flowers. When I showed up at uh they opened uh the botanical garden early, I showed up at nine a.m. and Dax and I went, we just walked in. And then at 10 when I left, there was like the equivalent of a three-block line trying to get in to see a stinky flower.
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+[16:38] Just goes to show you the lengths that New Yorkers will go through to see a stinky flower. Not just New Yorkers. I mean, I was in from California, I saw that this was happening. I was watching the the uh corpse flower cam regularly to see if it would it would open while I was here, and was sorely disappointed. In fact, you and I were in the touch.
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+[16:59] I was I was maybe gonna delay my flight. I'm glad I didn't because it it stayed closed for another couple of days. But anyway. Anyway, so uh but you know, you should uh go check out there's gotta be someone, I think Davis has a couple. UC Davis has a couple, but I think they're held uh kind of privately, they don't necessarily put them on display.
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+[17:17] Yeah, and I heard that actually someone had one in Berkeley a couple of years ago. Well maybe that's there's a yeah, there's a wiki list. Yeah. Uh-huh. But did you you didn't get to obviously see the No, heard about it after the fact.
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+[17:29] So listen, if any of you listening have in the San Francisco Bay Area or within, I don't know, probably probably a hundred mile radius or so, and you want Harold McGee to come smell your flower, I'm sure he will come smell your flower. Or if you're growing any form of uh of uh carrion uh fly um or any sort of dung dung uh insect uh pollinated uh arum family flower, I'm sure Harold would love to come smell. Am I wrong? You're not wrong, no. Yeah, I mean like you know, conjac.
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+[18:02] Look, the amorphofallus titanium, the corpse flower, has uh uh you know it has the the problem that it only blooms, it doesn't bloom for at least 10 years after you after it's you know started and then and then it blooms once and then uh doesn't bloom again for another like four to seven, eight years. And so the bloom is like 36 hours, right? Yeah, yeah, 24 to 36 hours, and like to make it even harder, it's it's like a very picky, you know, it really just wants to grow uh in Sumatra and like nowhere else. So every anywhere else you try to grow it, it's a it's a huge kind of uh it's a cordal you. All right.
+
+[18:36] So speaking of gardening, I have some stuff I brought. Oh, do you want to do dump meals now or do you want to do dump meals after the break? After the break. Nastasia's sister, our dump meals correspond. By the way, Harold, a dump meal is where you just take like uh like like a short list of ingredients, throw them into a crock pot, walk away, and then eat it.
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+[18:55] Uh-huh. Hence, you dump the stuff into the crock pot, and then that becomes your meal. And so Nastasia's recently college graduated sister is our dump meal correspondent. And she called in and I was, and apparently I was like horrifying to her. I was mainly horrified at the at the dump meal, right?
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+[19:17] Uh fixated on her washing chicken. You don't wash chicken. Anyway, um USDA says wash chicken. Really? Oh, wait a minute.
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+[19:27] No, no, no. No, they say don't wash chicken. They flipped the chicken. Don't wash chicken. Three, four years ago they flipped.
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+[19:29] Yes, you know, and and because it's gonna spray spray salmonella everywhere. Spray salmonella all over the place. Uh yeah, and but my point is is that like this is yet another reason why, like most people's recommendations are garbage. Because people flip back and forth. People you ask someone a question.
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+[19:52] You ask a USDA person, hey, should I wash chicken? And they've never run the experiment, they've never run the freaking test. They're like, yeah, you should wash chicken, right? Me, it's just why the hell would you wash a chicken? You know what I mean?
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+[20:05] Like, like, I'm not thinking about like this or that, a boop of people bought. You're gonna cook the freaking chicken. Why are you gonna wash the freaking chicken, right? Here's why I wash my freaking chicken. All right.
+
+[20:18] Because often when I buy a chicken, it kind of stinks. All right. This I'm not I'm not saying anything against your chicken. Uh but listen, listen, Harold. I remember this was oh, two decades ago, back before duck was fairly common, right?
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+[20:33] As a thing you could buy uh in a soup. I mean you could buy it, but you know what I mean. It wasn't something that they sold a lot of. So I bought a duck. And it was in one of those classic, like poultry tubes that they put like chicken and ducks in, right?
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+[20:47] That seal in stank, and they're they they didn't used to be modified anything. They were just tubes. And then uh they would presumably freeze them in the tube, ship them, thaw them out, and then they'd sit god knows how long until somebody, some knucklehead who wanted to cook a duck, you know, because back then Americans cooking ducks, like, what are what are you, French? You know what I mean? So, like, I bought the duck and I opened it up and it stank.
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+[21:10] I mean, it's stank. It's stank. And and by the way, what stank means in this case is lots of bacteria are growing on it. Right? And so, like, I was like, it's still good, it's still good, I can fix it.
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+[21:24] I can fix it because it was dinner. You know what I mean? People were coming over, it was dinner. I didn't expect that uh all of a sudden my main protein, the centerpiece, this duck I had been thinking about, was gonna be garbage. So then what do I do?
+
+[21:37] I attempt to wash it off to get the stink away. It still stinks a little bit. I put soap on the freaking duck to try to wash it off. And then I say to myself, Oh, am I gonna eat this freaking duck that stinks that's going bacterially wrong? That is garbage, that is like just like, no, no, I'm not.
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+[21:57] And and that's kind of maybe when like my aversion to watching poultry started. When I realized that I was using it as an excuse to try to serve my family garbage. And when I realized that I was a severe enemy of quality in that, I probably overdeveloped a reaction in the other direction. You see what I mean? That's I'm just telling you like the the analysis of where I come from on this on this poultry washing situation.
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+[22:22] Now the USDA though, like it's like, you know, someone that's the problem. It's like doctors when you ask them advice on on nutrition, they just say something that sounds good, they haven't actually run the test. Really, the USDA person would say, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad.
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+[22:38] Who knows? I don't know. Do it if you want. You know what I mean? It's like, in the absence of data, don't make recommendations.
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+[22:43] Yeah. Yeah. Unless they're just personal preference. Yeah. Or say, this is what we think might happen.
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+[22:50] So we think maybe it would be better not to. So if you have a chicken that you deem has like a little bit of smell, but maybe it's gonna be okay when you eat it, you want to wash it. I mean, I think that's fine. I'm fine with that. But just they like like deregur washing your chickens when you open them.
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+[23:08] Yeah. Why do it? Yeah. No, I agree. Uh and usually when uh the the chickens that I buy when they have a problem, it's on the inside.
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+[23:17] So I I don't actually mess with the outside that much. I blot it so it'll crisp up better, but I but I do rinse the inside. Right. Well, there's also like a lot like uh you know how when they do like a bad butchering and they leave a bunch of lung on the inside? Yeah, I'll rinse the lung out because you know it's just easier.
+
+[23:35] Yeah. Now the flip side, some things have things that smell terrible in them or are are tastings that aren't spoilage issues, and those things I rinse constantly. Fish. Fish, you know, uh most of the time when you uh buy it a hole, they haven't uh cut the vessels along the spine and rinsed all that kind of uh blood out. I do that.
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+[23:56] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. And and stuff just happens on the surface no matter what. I mean, uh rinsing fish makes a huge difference.
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+[24:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm totally pro-rinsing fish. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
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+[24:08] I think but the thing is like you're but USDA would say same problem, right? Bacteria. But this is why you shouldn't listen to them. You should rinse it if it makes it taste better and not rinse it if it doesn't make it taste better. Exactly.
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+[24:20] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we're in total agreement here. But like I was I apparently pissed off Nastasia's sister. So now she she claims she has a meeting or a boss's show.
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+[24:30] So it's quite a preamble to this whole thing. Yeah, she claims that uh that she's not calling in because she has a meeting, but really she doesn't want to, she's like now she's filing her report, her dunk meal reports with Nastasia. But what makes it difficult is it's harder, it's easier for me to like you know go after things if I know exactly if I can query like why certain decisions were made or not. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:55] Yeah. Oh, so I have some stuff for us to taste. First of all, I brought the latest now. For those of you that longtime listeners, you will know that uh uh Nastasia and I, and I think maybe did Peter was there? Was he there that time?
+
+[25:12] Had some of uh Harold McGee's delicious uh walnuts, Harold's Harold's nuts. But then we have a new version of McGee's nuts here that uh and you want to talk about them? I brought them some so Nastasia can uh can sample them. She's now she hasn't had them before, so she can uh yeah? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:31] So uh I went to Turkey a couple of years ago, and one of the things I did in Istanbul was visit a place that made baklava, and uh we were given little samples of the things that they were making, and I was amazed at the flavor of the pistachios, which were compared to California pistachios, tiny and dark, dark green and just incredibly aromatic. So I bought some and brought them back and shared them with you because I know you're a pistachio fan. And uh I also uh prevailed upon a friend uh who may have been on the show, uh Ariel Johnson. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. She's been a couple times.
+
+[26:10] Yeah. Uh so she at the time was at UC Davis. I was in San Francisco. I told her about these amazing pistachios. She said, Why don't you bring them up to the lab over the weekend and we'll put them on a machine that's not being used and see if we can figure out why they're so different from the the California.
+
+[26:27] So we did a gas chromatography mass spectrometry olfactometry test on these two batches of uh of pistachios uh and found that basically they have identical chemical compositions. It's just that the Turkish ones had like 50 times the quantity of the volatiles that gave the aroma. And they they were so fragrant that they to me they smelled like mangoes. Right. So they were fragrant not in the way that like bronte pistachios are.
+
+[26:58] They were fragrant in a different way. Yeah, uh fruity. I mean, incredibly fruity. Now bear in mind, for those of you that don't you know pay attention to the botany here, they are actually related to mangoes. I mean, distantly.
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+[27:09] They're all anacardasia-e, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh anyway, so that that was a wonderful experience.
+
+[27:17] So uh a couple of weeks ago I was in uh Oxford for the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery. And uh my Turkish friend Eileen Tan was there, and uh we knew we were gonna see each other, so she wrote me for Miss Stone Bowl. This is like you know, a week before the coup, uh coup attempt, and said, Anything I can bring you? So I said, pistachios and pistachios and some pistachios. So she brought me two different batches, which we've got here.
+
+[27:47] One is the standard Turkish pistachios, which are larger. Do you like pistachios? Do you like pistachios? Do you like pistachio nuts, pistachio? Yeah, all right, all right.
+
+[27:58] So smell these. These are the standards. They smell like nuts. And then the uh special ones for baklava making, which apparently are not sold on uh in the market generally. They're sold only to manufacturers.
+
+[28:17] Mm-hmm. You get the difference? Yeah, this one smells more. Taste smells more. Nastasia, the the poetry of your descriptions is remember not to chew on the mic, people freak out.
+
+[28:29] I know. If they freak out. Daniel. What do you think? Good.
+
+[28:35] Really good. Yeah. Taste a little mango in there? Something? I mean, they're they're super fruity.
+
+[28:40] They're nuts, but they're fruity and nutty. But they're you know what I I think I told you I had some black walnuts, American black walnuts, that I think had gone rancid and fruity as a result of rancidity. Uh-huh. Like so it's like rancid fruity notes. Yeah.
+
+[28:54] Uh but these are not like that. These are good fruity notes. Yeah, these are so rancid uh aromas are are like fatty acids and alcohols and aldehydes and things like that. These are terpenes. So they're formed by the plant uh early in the development of the nut, and I guess they get diluted with as the nut gets bigger.
+
+[29:14] I guess they're they're there to protect the nut, and so they're really concentrated to begin with, and then as the nut gets older and uh the shell g gets hard and that kind of thing, um maybe it doesn't need as much chemical uh protection, so the the flavor gets milder. So when you're young, you protect the nut. You gotta protect your nuts when they're young. Yeah, when you're old like me, you don't need them anymore. Useless.
+
+[29:39] You're going with the nuts. Is that a Wu-Tang B-side? Protect your nut. Protect your nuts, oh, it should be. It should be.
+
+[29:45] Yeah, so these are nuts. Now the reason they don't harvest used normally is just they're more expensive to do because you lose out on the harvest. Yeah. So they're uh they're apparently not for general sale. They're only sold to baklava makers.
+
+[29:58] Now why do the baklava people care that much about like the quality difference of their nuts? I guess to make a better baklava, I don't know. See, but why don't they but they must make friends of quality. They must friends of quality, but they must actually believe that the other ones are better eating nuts. Maybe because they have 'em both, they actually must believe that the bigger ones are better eating nuts and these are better pastry nuts.
+
+[30:21] Could be. Could be, yeah. Maybe uh otherwise there'd be a market. They just charge more. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:27] Uh yeah, good question. Maybe maybe in a place that has pistachios galore, people are not willing to pay a whole lot of money for them just as a general eating nut. Yeah. So nut eating. Oh, speaking of young uh seeds, nuts.
+
+[30:44] Uh so I have this uh pumpkin. So it turns out that I have this uh garden patch up in uh Connecticut, and it's um it's like cucumbit fantasy freaking land. So like cucumbers go freaking bananas, and I didn't know this because I hadn't ever planted a pumpkin before. Pumpkins go freaking nuts. And I planted like a a pumpkin that's actually a Connecticut variety, I forget the name of it, but it's from Connecticut.
+
+[31:09] And it's one of the ones that's designed to become giant, like a couple hundred pounds. And uh and I was gone for a couple of weeks. I came uh came back and looked at it, and it's like Jack and the beanstalk, the sucker had punched through both sides of the garden. And uh uh one of the pumpkins on I have to thin them out so that they get big, right? But one of the pumpkins that uh I was gonna consider keeping in the span of two weeks, it had it had grown through a a fence.
+
+[31:33] It was the size of like a tennis ball or a racquetball, uh, and it had grown into 10 10 pound pumpkin over the course of like two weeks. And it it it snapped itself off because the the vine could no longer hold it through the fence. It was like through a uh like a what is it, you know, like uh chicken wire fence. It was through it, it snapped it off, and so I took it, right? Because I'm gonna harvest them anyway.
+
+[31:56] But they like there is almost no information on the internet about uh young pumpkins. Even though I'm sure everyone who tries to grow big pumpkins is thinning pumpkins out. There's nothing, there's nothing on them. And what's interesting is the skin is very, very thin and delicate because you haven't uh cured it at all, right? When you cut it open, the pith between the seeds hasn't uh fully, it's like still kind of solid, so it's kind of hard to scoop it out.
+
+[32:21] Uh the flesh is actually really good. I made uh I made uh like a uh a pumpkin pomzan with it. You know, like I I cut the pumpkin, roasted it down a little bit, but was gentle with it so it didn't get all smashed up, and then layered it like uh like you would for like a lasagna or something like that. But I did it Mexican, I did it with Oaxaca and string cheese and cotija because that's what I have in my fridge. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:43] Uh-huh. So it's not bad. You know what I mean? It ain't it look, Parmigiano is Parmigiano, cotilla is cotilla, but it made it's good. It's more of like uh, you know, like a Mexican, Italian pumpkin casserole.
+
+[32:54] You know what I mean? Anyway, yeah. And then uh pumpkin's new world anyway. And then and then later I took the rest of it because again, it's 10 pounds. I'm not gonna eat it in one day.
+
+[33:04] I I actually did hack it up with a pasta and uh rehydrated uh uh shiitakis and more of an Italian style with uh you know with fusili and you know actual parmigiano. It was delicious, but delicious. But so they're very good, and you can actually eat them raw, and they have the texture of a melon, but they don't have melon taste, and they don't even have that much pumpkin taste. They're very light. They're like the watermelon of pumpkins when they're like that.
+
+[33:29] So there's a they're a lot uh they're uh more refreshing, even raw. They have a lot of latexy stuff. So you know how when you cut pumpkins, you your fingers get that like second skin on them, that gross second skin when you're cutting pumpkins. Yeah, it skins the hell out of your hands. Uh but you know, I just peeled it with a veg uh veg peeler, uh chopped it up, and it's it's it's nice, it's refreshing, it's good.
+
+[33:51] Um, so it's a lot less pumpkin y even than like a calabaza melon, which is like pretty mellow in flavor, you know what I mean? And when it cooks up, it holds its flavor and doesn't uh holds its shape and doesn't mush out. So it stays real, it's soft as hell, but it stays intact, it doesn't instantly pulp out. But the most interesting thing, which I brought for you guys to taste, is the seeds. The seeds are almost the size of full-grown pumpkin seeds, but and I salted these a little bit, but they're soft, and you can eat them like cucumber seeds.
+
+[34:23] These are totally uncooked, but they're they're almost full size, like pumpkin seeds. I didn't s I just put out a little salt, but they're otherwise uncooked, unseasoned, just rinsed out of the pumpkin. Hmm. That's good. They're great, right?
+
+[34:36] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very refreshing. They're they're chilled, which helps. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:43] Yeah, but like I I would mix these into a salad any day. You know what I mean? I also roasted some and they were good, but they lost some of that snap and texture. What do you think, Nastasia hater of things? I like them.
+
+[34:52] Yeah, they're good, right? So people out there who are growing pumpkins. I looked on the like I say on the internet, I couldn't find any good information. Someone was like, throw 'em away, they're useless. Put 'em in compost.
+
+[35:02] Feed 'em to, you know, feed 'em to rabbits, feed them to pigs. The fact of the matter is, is there's a lot of delicious stuff to do with these young pumpkins, and it's not insubstantial. I fed my family for two days, including when guests came over, on this one freaking pumpkin that would have been culled and tossed into a ditch by most people. Yeah. Young pumpkin.
+
+[35:21] Chat room is suggesting a pumpkin dump meal. Pumpkin dump meal, pump dump, pump and dump. You know who? Mark Ladner. Mark Ladner, it that's his favorite cooking term.
+
+[35:31] He's like when you when you ha when he's doing an event, I'm like, hey, Mark, what'd you bring to the event? No, no. Pump and dump. Pump and dump. It's like, right?
+
+[35:40] It means something that's easy to do at events. You know, you pump out of like whatever bottles and dump. There uh uh obviously he's doing it at a very high level. Uh all right, I brought some more crap to taste. Do you want to taste the poisonous stuff first or last?
+
+[35:54] Last. Last? Uh you you stage it how you like. All right. Well, just in case we die, let's start with the non-poison stuff first.
+
+[36:04] So uh Can we take a call then after the tasting? I'll take a call. I'll take a call while uh while I'm while I'm while I'm saying let me say what it is, and then while I'm pouring it, we'll take the caller, all right. So I have uh uh I'm testing centrifuges out and uh I don't think we're gonna talk more about the centrifuge today, but I'm testing centrifuges out, and uh what what that means is I have a whole boatload of uh clarified orange juice like like around my house, right? Because I d I can just go buy it, right?
+
+[36:31] And it and it it clarifies rough in a roughly similar fashion to other citruses and things, and which is a big thing that we're clarifying, the centrifuge. So I have like gallons of clarified OJ uh in my house. And so I was like, hey, I start fermenting it. So I've been fermenting it. This is my uh first fermented batch.
+
+[36:48] Now I actually uh interestingly like um I think it tasted better uh when I first made it. I think this is like a month old now. So I think it tasted a little better when I first made it. Uh but this one was I have a batch that I just made, but it hasn't bottle carved up yet. But uh this batch was made with uh orange juice, which is about 11 bricks, uh taken up to about 15.
+
+[37:12] Oh and it got shaken up on the right over, taken up to about 15 with uh white sugar. But I have one with uh with honey as well. Uh-huh. But this is just pouring all over the ground is what it's doing. I'll say don't worry, it's sticky.
+
+[37:27] No kidding. It's very dry. It's like super dry. And what's interesting is is that even though I don't really like clarified orange juice because the the bitterness of the orange pulp is gone, right? Uh when you're when you're using it, uh I actually quite like this because the bitterness uh after all the sugar is fermented out uh comes back.
+
+[37:44] All right. So while I'm waiting for this thing to stop, uh, let me put it this way the bottle was a little uh shall we say excited. Uh why don't we take a caller while I'm pouring can I have a glass and stuff? So you're just sitting there looking at me like it's like some sort of like all right, caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, this is uh Tyler from EC Davis.
+
+[38:04] Hey. How's it going? Yeah, go impossible foods. Oh, impossible foods, yeah. So you uh Hi Tyler.
+
+[38:11] So nice to hear your voice. I was wondering if there's a scientific reason for scalding milk or cream in the pastry recipe, since usually they're they're pasteurized. Hello. Uh scalding milk or cream. Um well uh even when they're pasteurized, they're they're they've still got stuff in them.
+
+[38:34] And um, you know, back in the old days, uh it may not have been pasteurized, they may not have been pasteurized. Uh at this point, you you may not know how old it is. So I guess it's it might just be a way of sort of standardizing the microbiological quality. Great, scalding. I even isn't I I always well, I I was chewing out for one second because I had this uh I had uh I was pouring stuff and getting stuff dripped all over me.
+
+[39:01] But anytime I see scalded milk in a recipe, I think it's uh uh a throwback recipe. Right? Which recipe are we talking about here? Uh uh pastry cream and things like that. I mean, I think of this, I think it's like a a throwback, right?
+
+[39:21] Could be. I mean, has anyone done a side-by? I always follow recipes just because it's easier to follow a recipe than it is to have a failed recipe afterwards, unless you're specifically testing out a theory. Yeah, yeah. I mean, something else that it's gonna do is uh is change the flavor.
+
+[39:42] Uh for sure. The question is whether at the end of the process of making whatever you're making, you're gonna notice that flavor difference or not. But scalded milk, scalded cream tastes very different than uh than plain pasteurized either one. What about la uh UHT pasteurized? Um yeah, I th I think if you scald that it's gonna taste different too.
+
+[40:06] I mean, the amount of time and the temperature that any milk product reaches, the longer it stays at that elevated temperature, the more the flavor changes. Yeah. And and the more the proteins are messed with, and the more X, Y, and Z. So in general, when you're selling something in a store, you mess with it the least amount that you can uh, you know, in you know, to have it sell before it spoils. What about parmelot?
+
+[40:32] You think scalding parmelot's gonna do anything? Parmelot. Um, that tastes pretty cooked to begin with, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:45] Um, so I mean uh as with all questions like this question, what I would do is a side by side, right? Just make the same recipe with and without scalding and see whether anybody notices any difference, whether you notice any difference during the process of the making, you know, whether it makes a difference to the process. Um my guess is that there are small differences, but they're not gonna be that significant. Right, and especially for things like that that you're not really relying on the chemistry of the milk. So I think like small amounts of heat difference and small amounts of uh of uh changing the uh conformation of the of the of uh uh the ingredients in milk can make a huge difference in things like cheese making.
+
+[41:31] You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh but even yogurt making. I mean, uh you you get a much thicker set if you scald the milk first. Right.
+
+[41:42] But you they but here you're but there you're relying on the chemistry of the casein uh you know and and the micels to to what you're working on. In like a pastry cream, you're not. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't guess.
+
+[41:59] I don't know. Yeah. That's my theory. Sticking to it. Cool.
+
+[42:06] Thanks so much. Alright, thank you. All right, to taste this, detaceous. What do you think, guys? It's just orange juice.
+
+[42:11] Yeah, it's kind of weird. You have a weird flavor. You're weird. It's orange juice. I'm washing that that noises me washing the uh the the orange juice off my hand.
+
+[42:21] But it's is it drier than you thought? Yeah. It's really dry. That bitterness at the end is from the orange juice. That grapefruit bitterness at the end of it is present in the OJ, completely masked by the sugar.
+
+[42:33] Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I like it. The bitterness to me is refreshing, like beer bitterness. It's almost like it's got like a bitterint in it.
+
+[42:46] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the and the fruitiness is toned down, I think, because there is so little or or no sugar. Yeah. So there's just not that kind of reinforcement from the taste.
+
+[42:58] Yeah. Interesting stuff. I like it. I'm pro. Yeah.
+
+[43:07] Yeah. I mean, uh Sunday morning brunch. Yeah. Yeah. This thing's uh right now clocking in probably somewhere between eight and ten percent alcohol.
+
+[43:19] So uh higher than beer, but lower than almost anything else. Like lower than you know, any normal wine or anything like that. All right, so what? Should we oh should we do we have time? Should we take our quick break and then come back?
+
+[43:31] No, I would just go through. You gotta get to that guy's question. Alright, so uh may answer the question before we eat the poison. I'll have you guys distribute the poison. So I brought uh some poisonous stuff.
+
+[43:41] So the um uh pot of what's it called? Pot of pot of phylum, the the American uh mandrake, uh, the may apple is uh an awesome looking leaf. You ever seen that leaf? It looks crazy. The leaf looks awesome, Nastasi.
+
+[43:57] It's like super green, big leaf. They're really low. And each plant only has like a couple of leaves, like two leaves, and they they they they um they grow by underground runners, so they kind of self-propagate themselves. And they produce the entire plant is poisonous. And so it was it's been used uh uh as poison uh by Native Americans, it's used as uh a medicine as a huge cathartic in small amounts.
+
+[44:22] Uh the resin, which is obtained from the uh rhizome, I think it's a rhizomatic thing, uh, is used as a topical wort remover, but uh there's been uh people who've overapplied it and uh they've and they die. Uh so this is my lead up to having you eat it. But the fruit of the May apple is uh incredibly delicious once it's ripe. Once it's ripe, it's incredibly delicious. The problem is very hard to get them because as soon as they ripen, they uh they're eaten by all the animals.
+
+[44:53] So uh last week I harvested them all when they were still a little green, and then I wrapped them in plastic in case they self-produce ethylene so that they would uh you know increase their ethylene production. And the question is is uh is uh is is the may apple a climacteric fruit? Will it self-ripen after it's been removed? Answer yes. It will uh soften and it will yellow.
+
+[45:14] Uh and so uh my theory is is that if it smells tropical and is soft, that it will not be poisonous. Now, you don't want to eat the seeds because the seeds are also poisonous. Well, it's thought that the seeds are poisonous. So if you guys want to inspect these, uh I brought two of them with me. If you guys want to inspect these while I get to the uh questions that we have.
+
+[45:37] All right. All right. Rich McDonough wrote in. By the way, we had a we have a question in about uh cocktails for Burning Man, but we're saving that for next week when Jordana Rothman, who has made cocktails at Burning Man, is going to be on the show to discuss it because we figured it'd be it's better to just have someone on the show who's actually done it so that and and uh I'm the only person apparently who gets sassy with Jordanna. Yeah, right.
+
+[46:06] Yeah. True. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
+
+[46:09] Okay. Um thanks for doing the show. And by the way, uh he calls out Nastasia, Peter, who's not here, but um, you know, you can stand in for Peter Harrell so yours you go. New engineer, that's David, and the ghost of Jackie Molecules. So nice.
+
+[46:25] The ghost of Jackie Molecules. Uh, have enjoyed doing pressure infusion uh in the EC or ISI, depending on uh what era you're talking about. So this is uh we're talking about nitrous infusion where you use uh nitrous oxide to inject uh liquid into an item under high pressure and then you boil it back out and you do fast infusions. Uh I've just got a hold of a large tank of medical grade nitrous oxide. Uh now listen, listen.
+
+[46:46] And 2.5 and five gallon corny kegs, which will take up to 130 psi plus a high pressure regulator, which will manage around 120 psi before the safety valve kicks in. Um you've mentioned pressure infusion in a keg was possible in liquid intelligence, but didn't go into details. As this is still much lower pressure than an ISI, I assume I need to adjust recipes and let it sit for longer, but how much longer should I go without risking bitterness from materials such as cacao nibs? Any other tips and tricks you can share would be great. Sheers, Rich.
+
+[47:13] Okay. Uh okay, so listen, it's actually, not uh that much uh it's not that different. So if you go uh on uh Amazon look inside Nastasia, can you get Amazon? Do you have that on your phone? I don't have the app.
+
+[47:24] Uh if anyone actually, hey David, can you uh do liquid intelligence look inside and then uh look up pressure chart and see see whether it's there. I thought I had it on my phone, but uh I don't. But in liquid intelligence, my book, which you can buy on Amazon. Uh the um there's a uh chart of the uh pressures inside of an ISI bottle uh and it literally lists directly what your particular recipe will produce inside of the bottle for a given fill amount uh at a given ethanol concentration with a given number of chargers. Now there are two numbers there.
+
+[47:58] I think I gave both numbers. If not, I'll have to go and find I'll try to post a picture of it. Uh the number is the initial pressure, which is important but not the most important, and second is the final pressure, which is what you're not going to be able to achieve the initial pressure, but you probably will be able to achieve the final pressure. So the the issue is is that if you have uh uh five gallons quite a bit, I would do it in the 2.5s because um it's not like unless you are a gorilla, it is not easy to vigorously shake a five-gallon container uh under pressure. It's just not, you know what I mean?
+
+[48:31] Uh oh, oh another thing, uh I forgot to mention, oh stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Listen, the difference between an ISI and uh a keg is that when you're doing a ISI, all of the gas is delivered at once at a high pressure, and then that pressure drops as you shake it. In a corny keg, you're delivering the pressure at the pressure, and you must shake it until you get to an equilibrium pressure inside. So you have to keep the uh the valve hooked onto the keg as you're shaking, which adds to the difficulty of doing it. So you have to keep the thing on as you're shaking.
+
+[49:03] You have to shake vigorously, do not turn it upside down or stuff will leak back into because those things, like I say, don't have check valves in them. So you have to hold it and shake the ever-loving hell out of it, up and down, up and down, up and down, until you stop hearing gas come out of the tank. Then you know you've reached uh um equilibrium relatively close to equilibrium. And then you let it sit for your predetermined amount of time and then you vent it. Now if you can't get pressures close to the ones that you get in the ISI, but my feeling is you can I don't know if David has found the the relevant document or not.
+
+[49:32] I have it where am I looking let's just for for craps like look at the final pressure on I think I gave 40% ethanol in a half liter whipper with two chargers. Is that on that chart? Where is the chart exactly in that you have to just ask for a pressure chart and it should find it somewhere. Okay one second. Yeah.
+
+[49:49] So anyway, you should be able to get to it. So as long as you with that caveat that you shake it until you stop hearing a lot of gas go in, which means you've reached equilibrium, everything else should be the same the venting, everything else should be the same. One more note of caution do not, do not, do not I don't care if you do whip it balloons with it or whatever. The way people die with nitrous oxide once they have the tanks is they put a mask on their face and they pass out. And there's not oxygen supply.
+
+[50:16] It won't kill you. If you had actual if you had a proper oxygen mix going in with the nitrous while you are breathing it, you would pass out and you wouldn't die. Uh and if you remove the mask you revive very quickly. The real danger is people asphyxiate themselves with the mask and it happens more often than you'd think. So uh do not under any circumstances ever put a uh mask uh over like uh attach a mask to this and like go uh and do uh mask shots of nitrous with your bodies.
+
+[50:48] Just don't. Just don't do it. Um all right so uh we'll see if David can come up with this stuff. And meanwhile, you want to, Harold, are you down for tasting or not? Does it smell tropical?
+
+[50:58] I have a question. Yes. Have you tasted one? Last year. Let me tell me see this one.
+
+[51:04] This I tasted last year's. Uh-huh. Last year's but fully ripe. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So this really is, we really are guinea pigs here.
+
+[51:15] Oh, yes. Is that right? Okay. Oh, it smells very tropical. Let me see here.
+
+[51:21] Oh, yeah, smell that. Even if you don't taste it, smell that. I'm gonna taste a little bit because come on. Yeah, just describe the flavors. Uh the aromas, rather.
+
+[51:36] Uh actually, to me it smelled a little like cherries, like benzaldehyde kind of. Plus passiflora. Uh-huh. It's got passion fruit note, too. Okay, so a little sulfur action.
+
+[51:48] It's good. It's really good. It might, it's one of my favorite fruits. And this tastes like what you tasted last year? Yep.
+
+[51:55] It's one of my favorite fruits. It's got tropical, it's got banana notes. Don't eat the seeds. Spit them out if you get any. It's got like banana notes.
+
+[52:02] It's got like passion fruit notes. It's got like. That is good. Yeah. That is freaking delicious, right?
+
+[52:10] Stas, are you up for it or no? Oh, thank you. No thanks. All right. So listen.
+
+[52:15] These seeds, everyone should do these. Everyone should do the seeds. All right. Alright, we got one minute. Why don't you do give us a dump meal report?
+
+[52:21] Oh, she made um she made root beer pulled pork. Pork butt, root beer, soy sauce, salt, and pepper. I said all together. She said yes, how else? And so what was the what was the uh she said I didn't like it?
+
+[52:35] Uh why? She said tasted like ass. It just tastes like root beer, but the pulled pork really pulled easily. I said, but it tasted bad. She said wasn't great.
+
+[52:46] That's it. Tasted like ass, huh? That's a technical description in that because it was pork butt or because she is an aficionado of ass tastings. Yeah. Anyway, hard to know.
+
+[52:57] So listen, I had I had a question I didn't get to. Uh I was gonna talk more about uh our 23 year old friend's espresso machine problems, but I guess we'll get to that next week when Jordana is on. And she'll I'll berate her for her cocktails, and she'll berate me for my espresso machine uh advice. Um anything uh anything you want to add, Harold, to this uh tropical fruit uh temperate temperately grown tropical fruit taste. Uh we need to grow more may apples.
+
+[53:22] Yeah, may apples is freaking delicious, right? It's freaking delicious. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network dot org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[53:49] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of three Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane5.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Ishes coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. And Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Special, special show for you today. We have, as usual, in the studio, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:52] How you doing, Stas? Good. We got David in the booth. Dave, how you doing? Doing great.
+
+[0:56] Nice. But today, today is the special Rockstar Wine Tasting, right? We got a bunch of Rockstar wines, some owned by Rockstar, some not. And to share this with you, we have a bunch of special guests. We have returning to the program, Jordana Rothman.
+
+[1:09] Hi guys. Whoa! You got a you got a burn, you got an air horn. Nice, nice. And you know, maybe if we have time, we'll talk smack about Burning Man and cocktails and giving each other crap and whatnot.
+
+[1:19] We have also the uh what's your uh Daniel, what's your title there at the Sirius Seats now? I always forget. Culinary Director. Culinary Director Daniel Gritzer. What up, what up?
+
+[1:28] Welcome back to the show. By the way, if any of you want to call in your by the way, get get ready now if you want to call in questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. But try to keep your questions relatively either rock star related or wine-related. Because we got a lot to get through today.
+
+[1:45] Uh, we'll deal with all of your non-rockstar and non-wine questions uh later. Now, uh to round out our actual like information, because you know, we're not bad people, right? We're not bad people. Right, okay. But we're not like, we're not we're not none of us are professionally kind of rock star folk or wine folk.
+
+[2:04] Actually, I have uh I have a career as a rock star on the side. Well, he's so sweet. Is that actually true? It is. He's actually written he's actually written a song with Nastasia the Hammer and I.
+
+[2:14] Yeah, I had my rap day. It's called Slap Your Balls. Uh well, I wish you had told my two dogs that last week when they had balls before I had them sniffed off at the vets. Uh but uh more about that. Now you have like different ball songs coming through my head, which is not appropriate.
+
+[2:29] All right. So let's start with uh let's start with our rock and roll cred. Uh we have Anthony Boza, who is uh welcome to the show. Very glad to be here. Yeah, uh a uh multi multi New York Times best selling author.
+
+[2:43] Uh has worked with the likes of uh slash well we'll get into it later if we have time, but like how was that? Was that okay? Oh, it was amazing. Yeah? Yeah, it was great.
+
+[2:52] Yeah. Um, glasses. I used to go to his house because he liked to get interviewed from like midnight till four in the morning, and he usually would arrive would uh open the door in a robe with a turban. That is sick. So kind of a hat, I guess still, but turban.
+
+[3:06] Was he doing like a hair mask? He had just showered any other white robe on that said slash. Yeah, it's like that. That is you know what? Everyone that's the life.
+
+[3:15] Yeah. That's like a just at home. Yeah, who else? Who else? Who else if you uh like like in that in that Tommy Lee?
+
+[3:21] Yeah, how was that? In the Pamela days or not in the Pamela days? Nope. It was in the the days uh when he wasn't in Motley Crue, and I lived with him. I ended up living with him.
+
+[3:29] This first time I did a co-write, didn't know what it was gonna be like. Ended up living in his house for nine months. That's gotta be Yeah. I'm glad to be here. Did you ask did you ask him?
+
+[3:39] Did you ask him about andor write about their like bet to see who could like go out and not shower the longest and still like get it on with the ladies on a constant basis? Is that is that apocryphal or is that true story? That's pretty true. Tommy does not like to shower that much. Wow.
+
+[3:55] Yeah, he calls it the rain closet, though. That's his little pet word for a shower. He's like, I'm gonna hop in the rain closet, dude. Be right back. Now, this is a family show.
+
+[4:02] I'm just saying that right now. But for any of you that go out and for any of you who go out and watch the uh the famous online uh like uh explicit video of Tommy Lee and p and Pamela when they were together, right? I want you to reimagine that without any showering for a long period of time. It's a good thing they were on a boat. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:23] Airing every airing everything out with the sea breezes. Uh yeah. What was the other one you said after Tommy Lee? Uh by the way, why do they pronounce it Motley Crue with all the ummouths? Shouldn't it be Murtloy Kurua?
+
+[4:34] Did you ask him that? We didn't get to that one, but you know. Oh, next time. Next time. All right.
+
+[4:42] And last but certainly not least, we brought our wine cred with Clifton Hyde, who is uh a psalm. Where are you song, Clifton? Uh work with uh the Moro wine group uh doing mostly high-end stuff for lots of rich people around. Oh, high-end, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. But also a member of the freaking blue man group.
+
+[4:59] Yes. What? What? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, when you get tired of eating marshmallows, you have to wash it down with some wine so it works out well.
+
+[5:04] This is strong business. This is people, people, this is some strong business. And we have a lot of wines uh to get through. And uh once we get uh Clifton liquored up, he might do some tricks with like ping pong balls and catching all sorts of crazy stuff with various things and whatnot. He's not dressed in in blue.
+
+[5:22] I hear the tryouts for the blue man group are just freaking bananas. Yeah, it's pretty nuts. I hear but it's like almost like a hazing, right? It's yeah, well, yeah. Well, first of all, just the the initial audition, you're in a room with a hundred people and they give you they play a song for you, and uh you're expected to memorize it and play it back on one listen and they change it for each person.
+
+[5:39] With those weird organs? All the yeah, it's instruments you've never played before. So it's crazy stuff. And so then that wheedles it down to a lot, and then after that it's just like a couple of months of just craziness and craziness, and then they keep putting you in front of people the whole time to see if you break under pressure and stuff. It's it's fun.
+
+[5:55] Alright, two questions. How long does it take to get the makeup off? Uh I got to well, uh I got most of it off within like 10 minutes. Wow. Whoa.
+
+[6:03] You get you get pretty good at that. Like you're like date ready in ten minutes, or are you still like uh well? So for visual picture, he's got a beard and a mush-ass. A mustache mustache. So I'm trying to imagine like the blue Yeah, it just cakes in there.
+
+[6:17] You just say fuck it, and you know, if anyone asks you just something that's how it'll roll. Alright, okay. And uh the second thing is is uh uh I imagine like gratifying and fun, but also soul crushing or not soul crushing. Continues to be fun? Uh well I haven't done it since 12, which is funny actually.
+
+[6:32] I did do some percussion work with them on Sunday night. Uh but no, it's it's it's one of the few things that's actually pretty it's always fun because the crowd's there and it's very improvisational with the crowd and you get to mess with them. Uh so I I ran screaming from Blue Man Group the only time I ever went. Too much touching. Yeah.
+
+[6:52] You for you, you thought there was too much touching. This is Jordana Rothman talking. If Jordana Rothman says there's too much touching, it's a Caligula movie. Let's put it that way. That was probably Clifton.
+
+[7:03] Yeah, yeah. I think it was like around 300, right before you got banished. Yeah, the banishment was good. Did the guy have a beard? Yeah.
+
+[7:11] Yeah. Alright, all right. Uh recognition. Well, you're like, we gotta make a bottle orchestra when this is done. Oh, totally and do a little routine.
+
+[7:19] Right? Yes, great. Alright, so let's get to it. So we have a bunch of different wines. Which which what are we gonna go through first?
+
+[7:25] We're gonna go through DLM? Yeah, we're gonna do DLM first. Okay. So the the premise behind this show is an excuse actually for uh Nastasia to get some friends on the show and have a good time, which is what we're doing. But in actuality, it's it's it's it's uh tasting and judging not just celebrity uh wines, of which there are many, for uh, but um rock star wines that are associated.
+
+[7:45] Now, uh DL DLM uh Bellamontagna Winery, uh uh Dennis is the guy that Nastasi has been in touch with over there. He is a winemaker and has been a winemaker, but really is a huge uh rock star fan. So he has a lot of collaborations with um rock stars and people in the music business, but the wines themselves aren't owned by the rock stars in his case. So which one are we gonna go through first? Uh let's let's start with the uh the finale Shankone Pinot Noir from Sonoma Coast 2013, one of 50 uh cases produced.
+
+[8:17] So this is this is one-sixtieth of the entire production. Nice, all right. Well the la the last which one's that's the grand finale? Uh just the finale. Okay, the finale.
+
+[8:26] All right, we have later to taste at the end the grand finale, which is their like their their most kind of it's their most uh what's it called, limited, it's the most limited, his favorite bottle uh that they that they make in this series. Now the the finale uh the finale wines uh is a collaboration who I actually think he does go to the winery and do actual collaboration with uh Jonathan Cain. Jonathan Cain is like a musician uh slash like a pi like a piano player who like he did he I looked on the Wikipedia and he has gone to like every journey concert for the last umpteen million years, played the piano solo which he wrote in Don't Stop Believing, and then like been like peace, I'm out, and then like leave. So hopefully for him they play it near the beginning of the set. Guessing no.
+
+[9:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just sit around, kids like, come on, guys. Yes, they make it through separate ways. Yeah, yeah. Slay Freebird last.
+
+[9:16] You know what I actually really like uh separate. What's the song that you hate? That one. Separate ways? Oh no, no, no.
+
+[9:22] How do you hate you hate Don't Stop Believing? Because here's why Nastasia hates Don't Stop Believing. Because she's like uh a bunch of people who don't know their butt from a hot rock just go around singing it and they have no idea. It's the one journey song they know, so I hate it. Nastasia loves old man music, actually.
+
+[9:38] No, Dave does. I like I like old man music, I like young man music, I like old woman music, I like young woman music. I like all kind of music. I I have uh what's her name? Uh uh what's her name?
+
+[9:49] Carlson or whatever. What's her name? The she was on like one of the idol things today. NASA? No, um Kelly Clarkson.
+
+[9:55] Clay I have her on my iPod. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's rocking, dude.
+
+[9:58] I don't know. I have a party in the USA on my phone. I could play the for you right now. Like a hand line. That I don't have.
+
+[10:08] I have limits. Gotta draw the line. I'll just check testing your just seeing the boundaries there. Here I'll just say this about my rock my my rock thinking. My my rock thinking is this like there's a lot of stuff I hated like growing up that I'm old enough to realize is good now.
+
+[10:22] Like Steve Wynwood. Steely Dan. Yeah. Steve Wynwood. Steve Wynwood, he just played recently.
+
+[10:27] Well, but back in the day I had to hate it because of the people that listen to it. Right. In high school. Right. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:32] Or like Chicago, maybe. Oh, uh, my first tape, Chicago 17, Peter Sotera's finest effort. Oh, please, the love thing from Karate Kid 2 sorts that. Oh, man. Alright.
+
+[10:42] Does Peter Sotera make a wine? That'd be amazing. It would have to be white. I don't know why. Alright.
+
+[10:52] Alright, so let's take let's taste this. Oh, no slurping, no slurping in the mic. Our our listeners get it our listeners get like super pretzeled. Now, uh let me let me give the uh let me uh talk about the uh the finale wines. So um the finale is uh where is it but why don't you talk about it?
+
+[11:16] Why don't you talk about it, um Clifton. And I'll I'll I'll find the I'll find the the small town boy. Just a small town boy, yeah. Uh South Detroit. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:25] There you go. Uh well basically, you know, just looking at it. It's definitely unfiltered. Uh and yeah, Pinot Noir. By the way, this was shipped this was shipped by UPS.
+
+[11:37] It got bounced. It was in a hundred degree warehouse in UPS this morning. I was like, ah and so like I like just shoveled it back here as fast as possible, like threw it in ice, have been spinning it to get it down. I think I got it to the right temperature. I think we're gonna temperature to I also like the idea that it's kind of been footballed a bit before we got here, because then it's really much more rock and roll that way.
+
+[12:00] Just like, you know, shake it up, pour, and let's see what happens. See if it holds up, man. See if it holds up. All right, Clifton, give us a give us a notes. No slurping and the microphone.
+
+[12:12] The reader the listeners get pretzeled. All right, sorry. I do that with water, it's so bad. Alright, yeah, so this is definitely seeing some heat. Uh high alcohol, uh a little bit of cherry, a little bit of like a strawberry thing on it.
+
+[12:27] This is Sonoma, right? Uh yes, sir. Yeah, Sonoma. So hot climates 13? 14.
+
+[12:34] 13. 13. Yeah, so hot, hot year, a lot of big fruit. Uh alcohol is really hot on the back. On the side, get a little mouthwater pucker.
+
+[12:44] Uh not bad. Very, very classic uh Sonoma Coast. Um Pinot Noir, yeah, from a hot year. Now let me ask you this. There's a little bit of oak in there too.
+
+[12:55] Not much. Are you feeling the piano solo from Don't Stop Believing? Does the movie never end? Does it go on and on and on and on? And on.
+
+[13:08] I feel like the most fun thing ever is for people to listen to wine notes. This must be so much fun. Well, that's no, but that's why we have a legit Psalmslash blue men on. Yeah. By the way, do they allow women in the blue man group?
+
+[13:25] Yeah, they do, but the tits always hurt. Whoa, whoa, family show. Wait, wait, what? They chafed their nipples. Do you have to tape down your nymphs?
+
+[13:33] Yeah, so they at least bandage them all the way and so there's just not a real. Wait, because are they like they have to be topless? No, they have to look like men. They have to look as androgynous as possible. That's some fucking bullshit.
+
+[13:43] Hey! Tradana, it's not called the blue person group. It's the blue man group. Yeah. It should just be the blue group.
+
+[13:50] I don't know. Family freaking show. I'm with blue. You're my boy. Did you give blues clues cease and desist when they started coming out or no?
+
+[14:03] No, no, but I'm actually I I'm I'm I'm friends with Steve Burns, since uh like uh he's we've we've made many uh many a joke about such a thing. Nice. Alright, strong. Yeah. Alright, so uh now that it opens up in the glass a little bit, you got any.
+
+[14:14] I think this is fine. It's a nice drinking wine. It's it's not so much a don't stop believing wine to me. This is more of a lady in red, like uh god, I love that song. You mean like lady in red like lady in red?
+
+[14:27] Exactly. The very one. Or is it a simply red? Well, he actually is. Well, I don't I don't get the free.
+
+[14:32] Is that the guy? Is that the guy with the like the half McHucknell? Yeah. You know, uh I never listened to that stuff. Lucky.
+
+[14:38] I it's like I'm I'll just get it. All right, all right, all right. So what are we moving to? What are we moving to next? Uh is everyone cool with the wait.
+
+[14:46] What does everyone else think? I taste it and I get cherry rain coming down. I taste it in my mind and I spread it all around. I've had a few, but not that many. But this is the one that gives me good and plenty.
+
+[15:01] Wow. Wow, did it work? No, that's a quote. That's a quote. And I'm gonna give, I'm gonna I'll give up some sort of prize that doesn't exist to whoever can uh name the source.
+
+[15:14] You got me. Is it a musician? Yeah. Is it a journey song? I mean, no staying.
+
+[15:19] Well, stay on subject, bro. No, but he also no cherry moon. What's the cherry moon? Under the cherry moon. The cherry moon.
+
+[15:28] You're getting your book. This was Juicy Fruit by M Tume. Wow. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[15:34] I see I see how we're rolling with you. By the way, speaking of rolling, I know it's not his song, but LilJean makes a wine, maybe for the next time. Oh my god, I gotta feel that. Yes. Little John makes a wine, apparently, AC DC makes a wine.
+
+[15:48] Oh, they said they couldn't get it to us fast enough. Yeah, yeah. Do you make a wine? Is it made in Australia? How can A C D C not get it to us fast enough?
+
+[15:55] Australia. First of all, I'm just gonna say this about winemakers, right? So ACDC, when you go to see AC DC in concert, doesn't matter how old they are, doesn't matter like whether they've you know, whatever's happening to them, they play the songs just like the album. The solos are exactly like the freaking album. Every time they come out with an album, it sounds roughly the same.
+
+[16:14] And Angus was once quoted my favorite quote. Yeah, he's like, well, if it sounded different, it wouldn't be AC DC, would it? And then like, and so like he yeah, or he had an interviewer once say, Well, how what do you think about the fact you've made 12 albums that sound exactly the same? And he's like, It's not true. We've made 13 albums.
+
+[16:30] Best retort ever. So, but anyway, my point being is that a band that can do that for that many years and kick so much behind at it, yeah. Awesome winemaking potential there, right? Because they're like they're like they're right, because they they're good at that golf game. They can keep going.
+
+[16:44] Same. Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it. They're not like all over the map. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're not trying to do a country record this time.
+
+[16:51] No, right. Imagine. That would be green. Yeah, yeah. Oh my, that actually sounds good.
+
+[16:57] I I could I could listen to a country Thunderstruck. Hell yeah. The Gorge should start doing AC DC and not just do uh. There's a bluegrass uh band that does AC DC covers that's awesome. And it's not the Gourds, it's someone else.
+
+[17:09] No, I don't I don't know. They also do the Maiden ones? I'll text you. What? They also do Maiden too.
+
+[17:14] Maybe you guys, maybe that's the one. I like that you choose late 80s AC DC as your go-to to turn into a bluegrass thing. You don't choose, like, you know, you don't choose back in black, you don't do Bon Scott, you like go straight for like 1988, 89 Thunderstorm. Razor's Edge Tour. The guitar.
+
+[17:31] Oh, wow, wow, low. I'm feeling it. It's really well played. Wow, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We'll get their wine on eventually.
+
+[17:50] Alright, so let me taste it now. Alright, number two. We got the uh this is the once again DLM finale. All access. Oh, all access.
+
+[18:00] Gets you into the winery. So this one is about like, I think it's supposed to be more accessible, more kind of friendly, more available, all access pass. Drinking it in the in the in the back of the stage with your buddies brings people together. That's what the spiel says on the website. Because I read that.
+
+[18:13] I read all access pass. I'm like, strong. I appreciate the I appreciate the theoretical camaraderie I have with the musicians. Right. Do you think these guys are really drinking wine backstage?
+
+[18:21] I don't know. You tell me. Some of them, yeah, no, totally. I mean, they might not be drinking their own, but they should if they have it. But yeah, no, I would say it's more of an age thing.
+
+[18:30] You know? Younger guys. Like when you age out of whiskey, you start making wine. Yeah, never age out of whiskey. When you're trying to, you know, watch your waistline.
+
+[18:38] You don't want to drink like 32 Bud Tall boys every day. You know what? You should you should tell Dave Arnold about um water shots. You should tell Dave Arnold about water shots. Oh yeah.
+
+[18:47] Yeah. How to uh yeah, water shots. Water shots. Um yeah, a couple of Coachellas ago, I went to Coachella with Tommy Lee. Did you see did you see holographic Tupac?
+
+[18:57] Uh I did, I was at that one, but this wasn't the one. Yeah. He wants to be on the show. He's already cut five songs about it. Um and anyway, uh, so his fiance charged me with making sure he doesn't, you know, it doesn't get dehydrated, it doesn't get too and you know, out of the cooked up.
+
+[19:19] Whatever. Um What are you talking about? Rock stars don't do drugs. So I invented he like doesn't drink water when Tommy uh is drinking, he doesn't like to drink water because he's like, that's for um so anyway, I invented a way to make him drink water, and that was to do it like a shot, like go and get a you know, a little solo you know, pole and spring, and be like all at once, and we would chug it and slam it, and he'd be like, yeah, water shots, and then they realize that actually made him feel good because it was the desert. So that's kind of how we did it.
+
+[19:49] So we would do that every time we saw a water station, he'd be like, yeah, everybody, come on, shot! And like get people and chug it and throw them down. Nice. This can be a thing. We can start this.
+
+[19:57] It's pretty fun, actually. We do it all the time. Yeah, we do it, it's good. It's Jordana professionally. Oh sorry.
+
+[20:06] Registered trademark. What do you what do you go by when you're not being professional? Jordana. Dave Arnold. Dave Arnold's nobody wants nobody wants that.
+
+[20:15] You can go with Dave Arnold all day. That's like, you know, steal my identity, please. All right, what it okay. Is this the same guy? We're still going to stay in winery for now.
+
+[20:25] We're gonna taste his uh white at the end. All right, yeah. So this guy is uh big boy. It's like 15% alcohol on this guy, and definitely a lot of zinc in there. It's got a little funk on it, a little breadish action, uh needs to blow off a bit.
+
+[20:38] Yeah, it already like uh I swirled it and it's already gone. Like it had something at the beginning and now it's yeah. Yeah, it just it just needed to blow off a bit. Um but this is this is easy drinking. So is this a backstage wine?
+
+[20:49] I I this is to me, this is totally like uh backyard barbecue, any sort of like you can just you can you can just knock this back and get hammered. Is it high alcohol? Because like all access pass, you know, bring in girls. Groupies. Is this a groupie wine?
+
+[21:05] The fun fact for people about Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is Nastasia was apparently the queen of going backstage without performing any sort of actions. That's what she said. That's because she's awesome. But corn disagrees. Oh, if you're gonna choose one group to break that rule on, corn?
+
+[21:25] No. She's down with the new medal. I think this is a little bit more. She's like, no, it was Voivod, actually. This is the wine.
+
+[21:34] This is the wine that makes the blue man women's ace bandages come right off. You know what I mean? This pop, pop a little metal. Yeah. I think this is just a it's an easy, fun wine, not much to it, no aftertaste, really.
+
+[21:48] Aftertaste. The finish is that's a first for his salmon ever. No after taste. Yeah, there's no real aftertaste. It just kind of it's like it's it's it's for quaffin.
+
+[21:57] You just sit and just throw this. Just fades into a water shot. All right, so wait, now we're moving on uh to the pin up is one of the ones that's done with David Coverdale. Yes. So this is uh David Coverdale.
+
+[22:15] Now uh the other thing I I want to say about about these guys about DLM, uh and their their website is DLM Wines, right? com. I think so. And uh what's interesting is is that they a lot of their rock star things they do for charity. So they'll they'll get like all of Journey or or David Coverdale to sign a bottle and uh and bottles, and then they'll do a charity.
+
+[22:36] So I know that one of the things they did with Journey made a lot of money for the Make a Wish Foundation, so it's kind of an interesting, an interesting model. I just don't stop believing, will not leave my freedom. Did you guys ever watch First Sweet Feast? Did uh did a series of like tasting um tasting celebrities spirit brands with Jim Meehan and um Danny Brown? Wow.
+
+[22:58] And his tasting note for all of them was Taste Like Pussy. Hey, family! Cating feline. You guys cannot be getting a note of cat urine. When I first went through uh like any sort of psalm training, they I kept hearing this thing's like, oh that's a very feminine.
+
+[23:15] Oh, wait, wait, wait. This one, wait, wait, wait, wait. This one's this one's not this one's not not the Coverdale. Wait, I mean Pin Up Pin Up Cabernet is uh the favorite wine of the owner, uh Dennis Della Montagna. He uh came up with the blending concept many years ago when the winery opened in 03.
+
+[23:33] Wanting a pinup label and being a photography enthusiast, he took his own pictures and had them placed on the bottles. Uh it has since grown to popularity now. Our own wine club members volunteered to have their pictures taken on the bottle. So this is not this is not the Coverdale. I apologize.
+
+[23:45] Not the Coverdale. Not the Coverdale. This guy wants to be a rock star. He is friends with he's legitimately friends with the Rockstars. With Coverdale.
+
+[23:52] He is friends with Coverdale. Okay. But this is not as so this is not. By the way, if we're gonna talk, if we have to link it to a rock star, best best pin-up album cover of all time? Vargas!
+
+[24:02] The cars, candy oh, come on, I'd say I agree with you. Yeah, it's an awesome one. I don't know. This is hardcore, but pulp is pretty good. There's a blur.
+
+[24:12] That's not yeah, no, sorry. Yeah, this is hardcore. That's that's a photo. Well, I don't I guess it doesn't matter. But it's classic.
+
+[24:19] They like like the cars literally got Vargas to do their album cover. Yeah, without that. I mean, I don't know. It's not even for uh Durander and Rio, too. Yeah.
+
+[24:28] Really? I like this wine. You like this wine or not? Uh it's easy. It's it's fruity, it's juicy.
+
+[24:34] It's a jammy fruity. This is like California in your face. It really is. Where are you from originally? Me?
+
+[24:41] Yeah. Mississippi, right offside on the wall. Really? So you don't like having California in your face. Oh no, I've had many a good evening that way.
+
+[24:48] Alright. Okay. So you're not like you're not like a uh a mud bug aficionado. I do love the mud bug too. Yeah.
+
+[24:54] Yeah. There's very few holes I won't crawl in. Uh oh. Family show. Yeah.
+
+[25:02] This is this is fun. I mean, it's it's jammy and fruity. There's no way around that. No, it's big jammy. This is like this is like slutty wine, is what this is.
+
+[25:10] This is like this is like uh like what how do you describe it? It's like um Parker style, but but like big people who like that big style. So before the backlash that started in 08, 07, like it used to be that like Americans, we made our bones on these giant freaking wines, right? Like the turtleys, the screaming eagles that were unavailable, really expensive, only by list, no one had them. And then and and those were in response, I think, to kind of like what Robert Parker liked at the time.
+
+[25:41] And then uh what happened was is you had a bunch of like young bloods being like, I don't like that. I hate it. I want austere. And then everything went austere. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:51] But a lot of that's just because they couldn't afford it. Think so? Seriously. No, yeah, it's right. And and to this day, I'm like, you know what?
+
+[25:57] Like, if you're at home, and here's what happened: the market got glutted with uh ten dollar giant fruit bombs, right? That were all like over tweaked at the winery. And then you had like a situation, so like back in like in the 90s, the best deal on earth was um the $10 black label Rosemount Shiraz. Right? Yeah, it was like it was like under 10.
+
+[26:19] We were all dirt freaking poor, and I was like, I have this for under 10 bucks. Wheat! You know what I mean? And like they were only making a certain amount of it, but then all of a sudden you realize that they made enough of it eventually when it got popular to fill Lake Michigan. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:29] And the quality obviously didn't stay as high as it did. We all got kind of sick of this style. It became more affordable, and therefore it became something that nobody liked, and everyone wanted something more kind of austere. And I think we're getting it's it's like uh saying earlier, I don't know whether I said it on air, like there's music that I like now that I hated when I was a kid because I'm old enough to realize that everything has a place. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:56] Right. And I think the same thing goes with those big kind of fruit bombs. Like they are an American thing, and we should just embrace them. Just don't drink them all the freaking time. Right.
+
+[27:04] I mean, but like you know, you could you get a really nice Monabello Ridge, which is a fruit bomb and a hat, but it's complex and sexy, and just I mean, it goes so great with steak, you know. Why wouldn't why would you deny yourself such uh hedonistic pleasure? Like a Bueller Cabernet with a steak? Yeah, it's I had a 13 bueller this weekend. And every time I do that, you know, I s I do the I do the Ben Stein Bueller, you have to.
+
+[27:29] Bueller. Nine times. Yeah, yeah. My wife is very sick of mm my antics at this point. She's just like we said the freaking steak.
+
+[27:40] All right, what are we drinking now? Uh this is the Grand Fanati. Oh, this is the super fance. This is the super fance. So this is again back to Journey.
+
+[27:48] Uh yeah, this, but this is the fanciest one uh of the line. I'm trying to see which one is the oh, the purple cuve, which we'll have next is the David, is the David Coverdale one. This is the white snake, right? Uh I think it's called White Snake. We just need white snake whites.
+
+[28:03] No, there's a white that they sent, but it's also the white snake purple. White snake's Infandel still, isn't it? He made something called White Snake Zinfandel, which is freaking amazing. Amazing. Amazing.
+
+[28:13] You gotta play to the strengths of White Snake. But it's not a white Zinn. That's the thing. I think it was it was purple. Oh.
+
+[28:18] Yeah. Oh. Do you know that Dave Coverdale was in uh Deep Purple? Yes, he was. I didn't, yes.
+
+[28:25] For a couple years, yes. He he uh premiered on the album Burn. With Glenn Hughes as the double lead vocalist, also the bassist. Glenn Hughes is amazing. Glenn Hughes is amazing.
+
+[28:35] So they have two badass tenors in the biggest. Oh, yeah. See, this is much more austere. Yeah. This is this is Bordeaux.
+
+[28:40] It's smell it. This is like as this is as left bank Bordeaux as you get. I think it's quite nice. Kabsolve Merlot Cab Franc, we're right on the nose. I think this is quite nice.
+
+[28:48] This is like Boni Vare. Bony Vare. We went from Journey to Boni Vare. We just went. Is that how you're supposed to pronounce that?
+
+[28:58] I don't know. Like you pronounce it like it's French. You're not like Bonheaver. No. Which makes me want to say it exactly the way you just did it.
+
+[29:05] Yeah, you totally should, man. Down there in by New Orleans way, you must mispronounce every French word, but not in an American way, in some sort of weird New Orleans way. That's right, yeah. He's from Missy, just to be clear. Well, yeah, but it's all the same crap.
+
+[29:17] Low country's low country. 30 minutes from high school to the French quarter, so low country, low country. I got a Saint Sticker on McCart. There you go. You have a car.
+
+[29:26] Yeah. So cool. By the way, I get a ride. By the way, so you'll understand this being from that area. When I was uh when I was going to get my dogs neutered, I kept on saying I was gonna chop a toolist their balls off.
+
+[29:38] Oh nice, nice, nice. Just so they wouldn't know what you were talking about. Yeah. Dave. Yeah.
+
+[29:48] This is really nice. This is delicious wine. I'm getting notes of wheel in the sky. Keep on it. And I like it.
+
+[29:56] Don't know, don't know where we're gonna be tomorrow. I know. Hopefully back here. This is fun. Exactly.
+
+[30:03] Nice. I like this really. It's a straight up Bordeaux. Is this his limited batch as well? This is the this is his most limited, this is his most limited one.
+
+[30:12] This is his only sixty case, this is eighty-five. Yeah, but this is his highest end one. This is also two thousand ten. And it's the finale, right? So it's it's a it's a it's a what's it called, between um the winery and Jonathan Kane.
+
+[30:25] Ohlaboration. That's the word I was looking for. I personally hate collabing. I hate collaborating. Really?
+
+[30:31] I know. I hate it. I know. I'm the first of all, I'm j I'm just bad at it. For those of you that want to know, like Nastasia has found what it's like working yeah, yeah, but we're yeah.
+
+[30:40] Nastasia knows what it's like working with me, and f she describes it this way. Look at the first pilot episode of Veep with uh Julia uh Dreyfus. And when she c when she s like has someone sign the document for it, comes out and says, the amount of incompetence in this office is staggering. Like that's like that's it. She's like, that's what's like read your mind today.
+
+[31:03] Nastasia no Nastasi and I are good. We've been together for like eight years, so like working together for eight years. So she yeah, she read my mind because I was like, It's hot. She's like, Yes, I know, ice bucket. I'm like you know what I mean.
+
+[31:16] Do you make her feel appreciated? No. No. All together now. But Nastasi and I are like that.
+
+[31:26] You know what I mean? Like she doesn't make me feel like I'm a she's like she's like, you know, whatever. It's like it's it's a thing. Little ways. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't make fun of you today.
+
+[31:36] Nice. All right, I think it's delicious. You want to go to purple? Let's go to purple. I'm gonna find a lot of things.
+
+[31:40] We gotta hurry this one. Yeah, finish this one. Alright, we have more glasses. I'm here to talk about Burning Man. We had a question.
+
+[31:44] Someone wanted to do Burning Man. Why don't you, while we're opening this next bottle, why don't you talk about what the cocktail you made of Burning Man? This is Jordan Rothman. Formerly of Time Out New York, uh writer of the book, what was the taco book called? Tacos?
+
+[32:00] Tacos. I got that book. Recipes and provocations. Thank you, man. That's a great book.
+
+[32:05] I wrote it. Yeah. I wrote it. I done wrote that book. Yeah, I would have signed it with a shit.
+
+[32:12] I'm supposed to write another book now. While we're opening this, also. Oh no, no, Jordana, go in, go in, go in, go in. Talk, talk, talk. So last summer we made an acidulated cordial so that we could the problem that we were solving was to make a shelf stable margarita for Burning Man.
+
+[32:25] And we did it, even though you were a huge ass you were huge asset. Asset to the process. If anyone listening here has meetings, like to go in that meeting and slip this in to someone next to you. You're a huge ass hat to the team. Now, it sounds like you're saying asset, you're actually saying ass hat.
+
+[32:48] Oh, because you gotta slip it in. You know, you're a huge ass hat to the team. And then and then, like, just like let it drop. They'll hear asset, and you said ass hat. And you feel so good about yourself.
+
+[32:59] Amazing. Amazing. I have I I have tried to get my wife to do this in her meetings for, but she's my wife's like, she's like, you know, she wants to do it, but she is like too professional. She's amazing. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[33:13] There's gonna be one person one day that inspires it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and uh also, like uh we've put it out there to our the cooking issues crew. Someone out there is like, hopefully, tomorrow we'll tweet back to the cooking issues at cooking issues with I used asshat to the team.
+
+[33:28] So the dude that wrote in about the tiramisu. No, no, no. No. Got creme brulee. Creme brulee.
+
+[33:34] That's right. He wanted to make creme brulee. We have another person who wants to make a cocktail this year. Oh, so he should be cordial. He wants to make the cordial.
+
+[33:42] So basically the deal was we approximated the flavor of fresh lime juice using malik and lactic acid in like store-bought um orange juice, which worked out super, super well, actually. It was like a like the ratios were good. We just didn't use fresh lime, which you were very upset about. Super upsetting. But that was the whole point of the problem.
+
+[34:03] The whole point was that you can't bring fresh limes into the desert because they don't stand up in the desert. So we got as close as we could and it was great, and I felt very proud of it. I would recommend to that guy that he I brought um like a large pollen spring uh water cooler, water cooler uh jug so that he could I could mix it in that and I kept it underneath the trailer and it worked out really well. All right, all right. And it worked out super well, and Dave's an asset to the team.
+
+[34:31] Did people enjoy it? People love it. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. They're literally like and you hand them any cocktail and put the best ever.
+
+[34:41] You could have served them poison, and they would have been like a big thing. I just want to point out that there was a time. There was a time when I was your favorite person, Dave. What happened? I love it.
+
+[34:49] You're so mean to me. Tordana, the the harder I am on you, the closer you are. Oh, okay. That sounds like um every every abusive relationship ever. But she needs to be a little bit more.
+
+[35:03] Give me some purple. Give me some purple. This is white snake purple couvet. Purple. This is corked.
+
+[35:09] Purps. This is a corked as you can use as well. This is awful. That is corked as well. Yo, David, David, whoa, whoa.
+
+[35:16] Before we do that, does anyone let's do some Harold McGee on this? Does anyone have some plastic wrap? Whoa. Does anyone have plastic wrap? We can get rid of this.
+
+[35:23] We can get rid of the. Yeah. There's plastic wrap on these, but Dave Arnold, for those following at home, just jammed some soiled saran wrap into his wine glass. It's not soiled in the way that like Frank Oz with uh Jim Belushi's condom says soiled. It's completely one condom, one prophylactic, soiled.
+
+[35:42] That's about it. But like honestly, honestly, if that helps, if that what you're doing right there helps, like is that. No, I'd sooner pour that down the drain. Like pour it down the pour down. Like, what are you doing?
+
+[35:52] Hey! I don't want to drink that. We did a test. And you're and he's swirling it as well. Yes.
+
+[35:58] Maximum surface area. It looks like a glassful of tamper. It's like a tamper. So uh so the molecule is yeah, do it to yours. The molecule is uh is uh attracted to the plastic.
+
+[36:10] This is the theory. We've done this test with Harold McGee, and the large surface area of the plastic in the contact will preferentially absorb the corkedness. Uh TC um my brain is totally shafted. TC. My brain's gone.
+
+[36:24] I'll get it in a minute. So if you're in a desperate situation, like if you're desperate, there's nothing else to drink. Water shots. Other than water. Get your plastic rod in a big bowl, because you want to flash that stuff off.
+
+[36:36] It is volatile. No, it's gonna still be there. Give it a minute. You just like kind of swirl it around like that. And then no, and then actually, so he's now I want to narrate this because what he's doing is he's squeezing out the saran wrap into it with his dirty fingers.
+
+[36:50] And then rock and roll, Tanana, presumably. This is making me gag. This is so repressive. It's still there. No.
+
+[37:00] It's less. It's less. It's less. It's still there, but it's less. If I say what a red stained plastic clipping looks like on the radio, I will.
+
+[37:10] I'm not wrong. It's less. It's less. And then just to continue the narration, Clifton spat it into the spit bucket. It's a spit bucket.
+
+[37:18] With a horrified look on his face. Speaking of horrified, this date that's outside of our windows not going well. Yeah, no. There's a date outside of our windows. Clifton is vomiting cork line.
+
+[37:28] Right in front of them. I have to admit it is it is slightly less. Yeah. Boom. Slightly less than Dave Marnell's story.
+
+[37:37] That being slightly. As we say en Francais. Boom. Boom. Le boom.
+
+[37:41] But if you could see the label of this one. The label is pretty terrible. Slightly improved. You guys. Well, it's White Snake.
+
+[37:53] Thank God. Look, White Snake. I mean, then again. Look, not for nothing. Do you know that David Coverdale was married to that uh Tony Katane?
+
+[38:01] Yeah. And I'm thinking. What was that video they did together? It was Here I Go Again. Here I go again, I'm on.
+
+[38:05] And still of the night. She's on a white jaguar. No, but there's another one he did with her. Like, what's it? Slow it down.
+
+[38:10] What's the song called? Is it still the night? No, then it's still in the night. It's still a night. She was in that one.
+
+[38:14] Here I go again. On your own? Here I go again. How many different roads have you known though? Yeah.
+
+[38:23] I'm going down a little bit. Yeah, he's only known one road. That's the whole point. That's what's so genius about that song. It's not like a Robert Frost thing.
+
+[38:30] There's no choice. No. Nothing. No. There's one road.
+
+[38:32] No, no, no. The point is that he tried to divert from the road that he knows, and now he's like, you know what? This is who I am. This road, back to the road out of the room. And the problem is, she's on the front of the car.
+
+[38:41] How can he see where he's going? That's true. It doesn't matter. It's the only road. It's true.
+
+[38:45] Here's the thing. If it's the only road he's ever known, we we think of it as like a one-direction thing. But obviously, if it's the only road and he's been there and back, he's like just taking the same road back and forth. Well, he's a drifter, so he's on a roundabout. Ultimately he can kind of circling.
+
+[38:59] Songs about cul de sacs. One, white snake. Fun fact number one. That song is actually a white snake cover of a white snake song. What?
+
+[39:09] It is on an earlier, earlier album before he had a real deal. And the lyric was like a hobo. I was born to walk alone. So he covered himself for that. Number two Dale covered.
+
+[39:20] If he had said hobo, then like John Stewart would have murdered Dale. That's right, exactly. And the other thing is check mine. The flavor profile of this wine seems to be taken off of the residue from the top of the jaguar from the here I go. You guys, man.
+
+[39:35] Yeah. Let me taste it. Also, I'm at a drifter. It's a lot later this weekend, and he gave me a candy. Hey, well, yeah, my point.
+
+[39:41] Here's my point. Like, the wine is corked. We shouldn't judge the wine off the fact that it's corked. But I will say this if you're at if you're backstage at a white snake reunion, right? Let's say you're backstream.
+
+[39:54] You don't want to have to bring an opener. Go go screw cap. Yeah, I agree. You're not aging purple cooves. But you know what you could do is just smash it on the hood of a white jaguar and drink it out of the jagged edge.
+
+[40:06] First of all, that era of Jaguar was the least reliable car on freaking Earth. Like late 80s Jaguars are the worst cars ever made. True. You're saying that to me like I'm claiming that they're the best cars ever. No, you just don't have that Jaguar.
+
+[40:18] It's a mistake. You know what I mean? That's all I'm saying. Clipton has a car, you got to do it. Alright, so oh, we're moving on to the next winery.
+
+[40:25] We're gonna come back. We're gonna taste the wine for these. But we're on to, by the way, Les Claypool, huge influence on me. Les Claypool has a winery called Claypool Vineyards. And I first actually only ever saw Primus once in concert.
+
+[40:37] When did you see them? 91. Ah, solid tour. Really? With Fishbone.
+
+[40:41] They were Sally C. Oh! I saw them in New Haven at the palace, and in the middle of a song, I forget what it was, it was like maybe it was Defy the Laws of Creation. Or like uh or Mr. Know It All.
+
+[40:52] They call me Mr. Know It All. He goes, he stops in the middle, he's like, he's like, I hope none of you are taking halogenetic drugs. They're illegal and they're bad for you. And he's like, dude, and I was like, what the hell, Les?
+
+[41:03] You're so freaking high. They were amazing. Amazing. But we were having an argument before the show started over the best Primus album, and it's clearly fizzle fry. Like straight up, straight fizzle fry.
+
+[41:13] Anyone who says anything else should be shot in the face. Like Fizzle Fry is their best album. I'm not saying I want to shoot you. That's fine. But they basically just did it.
+
+[41:23] First of all, like uh that's not the blue man group that's winds up jumping. I'm rehearsing. I'm rehearsing for our bottle orchestra. As Daniel Gritzer trying out for the blue man group. But listen, so like so uh the thing about uh that tour.
+
+[41:38] So when I saw him in 91, first of all, Fishbone was awesome, obviously. Um Fishbone was amazing, and you know, like at that time, people don't remember what music was like back then, who are not our age, but like uh back then back then you No, but back then, for those of you who are you know not in their 40s or 30s, like it used to be hard to learn good music. It used to be like a thing you had to go do. You know what I mean? Like Fishbone was never played on the radio and there was no Napster.
+
+[42:08] Fishbone didn't get radio play until 92 with Sunless Saturday, and they made it on Saturday Night Live. They did a horrible job on Saturday Night Live. So much so that when I saw them in concert two weeks later, like they were heckled by the crowd until Angelo Moore went ape on the guy in the front, like screaming his uh at him. But they were one of the greatest live acts I've ever seen, Fishbone. And Primus actually really crushed it.
+
+[42:30] But back then it was so hard to learn to like or learn to know good music, especially I was an East Coast guy. I'd never been out west, even though I was born there in California. So like, but all of my big influences were that West Coast, that West Coast uh sound. You needed like to know the cool guy at the record store who was older than you. Yeah.
+
+[42:46] Kind of that was the only way. Yeah, and you needed to be willing to spend $15 on his recommendation. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know, and then he'd probably clown you a couple times.
+
+[42:55] Yeah. It was very high fidelity. Yeah, like for instance, you would have seen that film. I bought the wrong Buster Rhymes album back in the day. And I was like, which one?
+
+[43:03] It took me years, extinction level event. And I was like, and it took me years to get back to learning what good Busters. Not that that's a bad album, Buster was just saying. He was just on a he's on a he's having a moment. Yeah.
+
+[43:14] And it's not his best album. No, I would say definitely not. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, none of my Buster Rhymes faves are on that album. Anyway, so like it was a big deal to buy an album unless your buddies already listened to it.
+
+[43:26] So, uh, and I always ended up going on the tour after the album I really liked. So I loved Fizzle Fry, didn't see that tour, learned about it later, and went on the Sailing Seeds of Cheese tour, which by the way. That's probably that's if I if I just make one album that's a good one. Really? They have a couple of things.
+
+[43:44] Yeah, but find him in one. Okay, so oh sorry, but don't start with me. But like I did it on by the biggest thing. But like so there's a guitar beginning to there's a song called uh those damn blue-collar tweakers, and the beginning of it goes, it sounds like you're diving in a submarine, it's like that sounds so enjoyable. Yeah.
+
+[44:05] The guitarist, the guitarist is the word of that. The guitarist did that for like ten minutes straight to intro the song. Oh. I think he wanted to clear out all the non fans. I forget who was headlining, whether it was fishbone or primary.
+
+[44:19] Or once again, if you're on psychedelic drugs. We have to probably go home now. Alright, so let's taste this wine. Which one of them is it? They sent three.
+
+[44:26] This is the uh Russian River Valley 2013. This is an extremely classy looking label. There's a commercial. I don't even know what the commercial's for, and I don't really care. But it's the best thing I've ever seen on a commercial in my life.
+
+[44:40] The guy is trying to impress his date, and he goes, Pinot Pinot Noir, which means peanut of the night. And then he's like, I was like, boom. So anytime my wife and I have Pinot, we're like, it's it's peanut to the night. I kind of like that. That's good.
+
+[44:56] I think it's good. I think it's good. It's good. It's a very um classy label. I was expecting something real goofy.
+
+[45:05] This is really well made. It's really well made. It's very it's very subtle, which is uh not what I normally think of when I think of Les Claypool. It's Rancho Relaxing. Okay, listen, Les Claypool has first of all, Les Claypool and his wife in 94, I read, bought a place, I guess, in Son in Sonoma, right?
+
+[45:23] Uh and um they uh get interested in wine, and for a while he was telling people to drink wine, I guess, as opposed to shrooms or whatever. I don't actually know what his drug of choice is. I know he used to do a lot of marijuana, but um I mean, he was probably high on hallucinating drugs when he told us not to take them. This is the Pacaderm uh Pinot, by the way. But this is um, you know what?
+
+[45:44] The guy is an extreme technician when it comes to bass. Whether you like his bass or don't like his bass, he's an extreme technician. I happen to think the reason I like fizzle fry, the best of all of their albums, is it has the best melodic sense. I think after fizzle fry in Sailing Seas of Cheese, there's just so much virtuosity in all the playing from everybody that it doesn't become as in the world. Wait, wait, can I just stop?
+
+[46:05] Can I just stop for a second? Yes, definitely. I can't take anything seriously called fizzle fry. You know what a fizzle fry is? And there's like the small ones that have like that have gotten really, really well done.
+
+[46:22] No, I actually really love those ones. Oh sorry, like the fruit. Because like they're the crystal fruit. Just a quick note, it's actually frizzle fry. Oh, frizzle fry.
+
+[46:29] Let's claypool. That makes it sound like a bad hairbag. Les claypool hues fish a lot of fishing references in Les Claypool songs. Fish own, fish. A Herald of the Rock.
+
+[46:39] Yeah. Does he like to fish? I just think you get disqualified from the world of music for the name Frizzle Fry or Fizzle Fry or whatever. How the hell old are you? 38.
+
+[46:50] You should know better. No. Democrats, I remember you when you turned 30. I know, remember that? Strange tip of the drummer for all that stuff, Tim Herb Alexander.
+
+[47:01] Whoa. We had a lot of clay pool wines here. Once he left the uh the world of the primus, he uh joined the Blue Man group, and I played with it many times. Come on. Is he cool?
+
+[47:11] Super cool. Good drummer. Amazing drummer. Clisten, you are such a find. Thank you.
+
+[47:16] That's all I think. I'm gonna say he's not my agent anyway. I'm gonna say I love that first clay pool wine that we had. I thought it was great. I was actually bummed that you enjoyed it out of put in this other one.
+
+[47:26] We have a whole bottle. Alright. But see, I've got it, I've got it all mapped out. It's gonna work out great. So we have two single vineyards going into the combined one singing.
+
+[47:33] But I wish that they weren't all called the same thing. I wish we had like Harold and Rocks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe some differentiation in the world. So, what was the difference?
+
+[47:39] The one we just tried was why don't we just so both of these are from the Sonoma Coast. Since I can feel that Clifton and I are the only Primus fans, what's your favorite Primus lyric? I have mad respect. We need new pornos. That's a good one.
+
+[47:55] Do you know what this show is about? And who is listening to it? Uh I just like Winona having a big Ryan New York. Yeah. Oh, that's later, though.
+
+[48:05] They already lost me at that point. That's still a good lurk. Yeah. Because she does show it off. Didn't Les Claypool get together with Butt House from the Limbo Maniacs and do something.
+
+[48:14] Why are you looking at me? I don't know. That's the best bassist name of all time, Butt House. Wasn't that his name from the Limbo Maniacs? Anyone?
+
+[48:23] Butt House? No idea what you're talking about. Oh, that's really cool. Have you met Buckethead? I have met Buckethead.
+
+[48:29] Oh! With Allah. That's Clifton. Come on, how was he? Was he cool?
+
+[48:33] He was super cool. It was when he was doing uh the show with GNR at uh Radio City. Really? Now if you tell me that you actually know who the residence is, I'll stab you in the face. And I saw the residents tripping on mushrooms at the Warsaw in 2002.
+
+[48:47] Really? Yes. Les Claypool. Were you tripping or were they tripping? Look, Prime is covered in miscellaneous debris.
+
+[48:54] Yeah. And the album, best album name, maybe ever, Duckstab. Duckstab is a great record. What are you guys talking about? The other great ones.
+
+[49:03] You guys want to let me know when I can come back? The James Brown before. Let's just start singing. Here, Ryan again on my own. I thought you were going to go into the Limbomaniacs.
+
+[49:14] The toilets flooded. The lower. I let me just figure out what before we taste this. Let's figure out where we are, like personally. Do you guys know, like the alien Jorgensen, uh Jell O Biafra, like Lard?
+
+[49:29] Do you know Lard? No. Yes. No. Do you know DJs?
+
+[49:35] What? 1,000 homo DJs? No, is that the same guys who did Millions of Dead Cops? Yes, that's awesome. Is that is that a millions of dead cops, guys?
+
+[49:41] No, no. But it's an Alison project. Really? Nice. So we found our level here.
+
+[49:49] I've also I've also realized that Dave, you like absurdist lyrics in your in your rock. I do. Okay. Yeah. Well, like to some degree.
+
+[49:57] To go to Jell O Biafra for a second. Or it's a neat best alb other best album other than Dugstab, Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables. That's a good, yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.
+
+[50:03] All right. But we gotta taste. We've got a taste. Yeah. Alright, so this is the uh this is the rice spivoc vineyard.
+
+[50:10] So both of these have been single vineyards that we've had. And we're gonna take from the single vineyards and then we're gonna do the one where they're combined. Alright, and then we gotta we gotta do some we gotta do some Virginia. We gotta leave time. We don't have a lot of time for it.
+
+[50:20] We're really on a serious agenda here. We haven't even hit the whites. I know. What do you call me? I like the other one better.
+
+[50:30] That's my that's my that's my uh yeah, me too. Well, you know what though? This one's a this one wants to be a little warmer than this. Yeah, it's a little cold. A little chill.
+
+[50:38] A little bit. Both very well made. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Les Claypool and whoever they have making their wines is doing an excellent job. I'm gonna give him a double thumbs up on that. He's his own Siskel and Ebert.
+
+[50:53] Alright, let's go to Virginia. Let's go to Virginia. Let's go to Virginia. We'll eat that if we have time at the end, we'll taste it. We'll stipulated Les Claypool and his wine folk.
+
+[51:00] Yeah, doing good. Good people. Good job. Good peeps. Alright, let's go to Virginia.
+
+[50:59] Stash, bring them out, bring them out. These ones? This is Dave Matthews, who is from South Africa. He's from South Africa, but he grew up in Virginia. We're more than white.
+
+[51:13] Start Rose, start rose, start rose. Oh, I thought you said you're bringing a rose. What is happening? I feel like we've been white for a while with this music discussion. I'm just saying.
+
+[51:22] Good point. All right, here's the Vignier. Now, how do you pronounce it? Most of the show is a Vion. So Vignette is the state grape of Virginia, which makes no dang sense at all because they discovered a freaking wine grape in Virginia called Norton, aka Cynthia.
+
+[51:38] But it's very hard to find Norton wines or Cynthia wines that are good and or made. Because it's not Binefra. Right. It's uh how have you pronounced that? Estevalis or whatever, like like like Estefan or whatever, like whatever it's called.
+
+[51:52] It's a bad species. Have you had a Norton you hate it? I I've had Norton, it's fine. It's just there's not a lot of things. Here's the thing about Norton.
+
+[52:00] Everyone says Norton. Now I have and Norton's chilling with Mario with my favorite one of my favorite Beastie Boy lyrics going through my head. But like my point is is that um I feel that having read from producers that Norton is given a bad rap because you need to age Norton for at least a good Norton for at least uh five to six years before you drink it, and then it's only good for another like two years. That's crazy. Yeah.
+
+[52:27] And so I think there's a guy, maybe we go, maybe we go. In St. Outside of St. Louis in Missouri, there's a Norton tasting, a 10-year Norton tasting, if you ever want to go. All right.
+
+[52:35] What are we drinking? Dave wants a new best friend. Lineheim vineyards. I'll take this one. Do you want to hang out one time?
+
+[52:41] I think it's probably Blenheim. I think it's probably Blenham. This is Virginia. Vognier is the uh grape. This is Dave Matthews bought this uh vineyard, I think in like 2000 and early.
+
+[52:52] And uh 15th, so that's a very moderate one. Right, no, but I mean I think he's owned, I think he bought it, he built the thing on it. He um they have a bunch of wine makers. The wine uh I forget the winemaker's name. She seems cool.
+
+[53:05] I looked her up on the website. Uh here's a fun fact about their vineyard, literally next door to Trump Vineyards. Literally next door to Trump Vineyards. And I looked this up and I was like, Trump Vineyards, crap on you, not because of political reasons, but because the guy doesn't drink. So why should he own which I I don't knock him for not drinking because his brother like had a severe drinking problem?
+
+[53:26] I don't knock him, but I'm saying don't own a don't make a vodka. Don't own a winery. But the winery actually, if you actually look it up, no matter what he said in the debates, he doesn't make the wine, he's not affiliated with the wine. His son Eric is the sole owner. They Trump Trump Donald Trump at the Donald Real Trump, whatever his thing is, he does not own Trump's winery, but they're right next door.
+
+[53:46] I'd rather have him spend more time on that than the other stuff. He doesn't drink. I don't want a guy making a wine who doesn't drink. Yeah. You know who does that?
+
+[53:55] The monks at Chartreuse. They they have their stuff twice now. Yeah, but none of them. They have some practice. I want two guys now.
+
+[54:06] All right, all right, all right. Clifton, give me this, give me a. Uh the Vionnier? I think it's I think the note is great. It's really light, it's really fun, it's uh super easy on the palate, great coffer.
+
+[54:17] This is uh this is uh saltwater swimming pool wine. Now now now talk to me. What do you think about Virginia wine in general? Do you have a lot of experience with Virginia? I don't have a lot of experience with it, but it's something that I've really been getting into lately, especially the Cat Francs.
+
+[54:31] Uh I I find like Virginia just to be kind of a it's really cool for historical reasons because uh there was this dude way back in the day that named Thomas Jefferson. And he was like a big Bordeaux hound, and he he was removed. Yes. He wanted to make Virginia into wine country, and so it's like they've been trying and trying and trying, and it never worked, and they've been really kind of doing really well the last 20 years. Now, yeah, uh everyone got everyone, everyone got the everyone, yes, hemmings, yes.
+
+[55:02] They uh we all got it. Uh the one time I went to Monticello, by the way, which is only a couple miles from here, I went in from here? No, actually it says it here, Monticello. Oh, no, but like the actual like Jefferson's estate. The only time I ever went there back of the nickel.
+
+[55:17] I went there, and the the ladies who are giving the tour there are like nuns for Jefferson. In other words, like you can't insult Jefferson, you can't crack wise. They're like, they don't, they are not playing when you like mess with Thomas Jefferson. So don't go there and like hemmings it up. They don't, they they look at you like I made all kinds of wise cracks, and they were like I grew up, my father used to just bring us to historical sites that was like our family vacation.
+
+[55:42] So I learned early on that no fun is allowed. No. My my stepfather made incest jokes at the Wright Brothers Museum in Kitty Hawk. He's like two dudes alone all that time on the beach, shh, like and like uh like the lady not having it. Anyway, so when I went to Montecello, the what I found is that they have an amazing uh historical garden at Monticello, and nobody's tending it.
+
+[56:07] Go to Monticello right now. It's peak season, and you can just rip all of the vegetables off of the vines and eat them. That's what I did anyway. I don't recommend that. That's not really nice.
+
+[56:17] But they're not eating those. It's possible. And they're not eating it. It's a waste. Okay, so we like this one.
+
+[56:22] I like this one. I think it's really nice. The interesting thing about Vognier is that apparently it finds a different expression, as all fruits do, uh, in different locales. So Virginia thinks that they get a very good expression out of this grape as opposed to let's say where the sucker comes from. Ms.
+
+[56:36] Rothman does not like this wine. Who doesn't? Miss Rock. Jordana doesn't like it? She's making faces.
+
+[56:42] Why do you not like it? She called it a water shot. It's a water shot. That's not the case. That's not the case.
+
+[56:47] It's a 13% water. I like that. I like that salt water and swimming pool descriptor. I'm gonna use that. No, no, but it's got the salt, it's got the salty, but it's not like heavy mineral, it's not like it's not like oyster shells.
+
+[56:59] You mean also it's like an easy drinker? This is like a I mean like I would like to sit in a sort of thing. You're on your you're on your inflated pool, floaty. I'm always on my freaking inflated floaty, wearing a hat and long pants because I need to do it. Which kind of supports Jordana's thing, which is it's like water.
+
+[57:14] You guys, you're wrong. You're just gonna be a little bit more than a lot of things. I have a wide range of floaties if you guys want to. So which one is this? Which one is this, by the way?
+
+[57:20] It has a very grassy nose. Yeah, not a grassy nose. I get honeydew and overripe pear. Yeah, tennis ball or cat urine. Cat urine.
+
+[57:31] Okay, so this part of the cat, you're gonna get it. So uh Dave Matthews. This is uh what? You don't like those mellow saxolas? This is their tasting note.
+
+[57:44] Okay, all right, let's go on to the painted white. Paint it white. I want to do all of them. Yeah, that's it. Paint it white.
+
+[57:49] And then we go ahead and see what you have to say about that. It's gonna have to be two shows. Oh, it doesn't matter. Paint it white, paint it white. Two of these, Dave.
+
+[57:56] Did it we did the one? No, this one. Are we still on the book? Lenum, Blenham. Ah!
+
+[58:00] This one. Yeah, the blend, yeah. No one is listening at this point, by the way. So that guy with the creme brûle burning down. Paint it painted white, 2014.
+
+[58:11] Painted. 65% Chardonnay. Whoa, whoa, 65% Chardonnay, 25% vignier, 9% Savignon Blanc. This is bad. And uh 60% of it's uh aged uh aged for um 10 months in French and Hungarian oak, Hungarian oak.
+
+[58:26] What's up with Hungarian? Hungarian oak, it's oak from Hungary. Uh wow, I could not have figured that out. Obviously, um, dessert ones. I made this fun directly from the winemaker.
+
+[58:40] You ready? I made I made this, I make this wine because I wanted to have a heavier, bolder white wine in our lineup. This wine usually sees a larger percentage in oak for a longer period of uh time than most of our other whites. I try to uh select the best and or most interesting varieties we have to blend together to create this wine. By the way, Dave uh the the uh Blenheim Vineyard uh does uh they they produce their own grapes, but they also buy other Virginia grapes, but all the grapes are from Virginia, not from outside.
+
+[59:06] They're not like trucking California grapes in. Is there a reason why we call that that has to do with Dave Matthews? I don't know. Blenheim to me is my favorite apricot, so every time I hear Blenheim, I'm super happy. Didn't the Blenheim people open a restaurant in the West Village?
+
+[59:17] Didn't that happen? Uh it might be because uh on his website, I uh the history of the land, I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. I tell tell me about the wine. Uh but there is some sort of history. There was a house, it burned down, it was called that.
+
+[59:31] But the world's greatest apricot, crap on anyone who doesn't believe it, is the Blenheim apricot. Straight up. Punch you in the face if you don't like my apricot. I believe it's a good one. I never had one and I want one.
+
+[59:40] Yeah. They're delicious. They're amazing. You better like it. California.
+
+[59:43] Yeah, anyway. Anyway, okay, wait a second, wait a second. Some barrels will end up going through a malolactic fermentation, others won't. So it's a mix of some stuff that's gone malactic, some don't. Yeah.
+
+[59:51] I'm really searching for it. I don't add malolactic bacteria to these barrels. It just sometimes happens when the sulfites get low. Some of the wine is in barrels uh from the juice stage. Some of it goes into barrels once the Chardonnay and Villonier have come out in early spring.
+
+[1:00:05] Thanks so much for including our wines and hope you enjoy them. It actually has like a nice acidity, though, but it doesn't have a nice acidity. It's surprising because it's sigillated portion. It smells so sweet. It's like cotton candy, and then it's smells exactly like cotton candy.
+
+[1:00:18] Exactly like kind of candy. And then it's and then there's none of that when you drink it. It's it's like sharp and Dandy Moore said, I'm missing you like candy. Wow. This is like a bad switch.
+
+[1:00:28] I like this. In a good way. Okay, you're hired in the blue man group. Can you can you spit a ping pong ball up and catch it in your eye socket? Alright, let's go, let's go.
+
+[1:00:38] Right over there. Yeah. Um this is great. I like this. You don't like it.
+
+[1:00:43] We have a difference of opinion. Daddy doesn't like it. Daddy says no. Anthony, what do you got? What do you got?
+
+[1:00:47] Daddy says to me, I don't really like it. I like it. I've like both of these ones. Oh goodness. I like both of these too.
+
+[1:00:51] Yeah. That's okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's your clip? He doesn't like it.
+
+[1:00:55] Cliff, what's your what's your note? I find it to be very well put together. I find it to be very well made. It's a very I think it's uh it's it's a good blend, it's a good mix, but it like most of the white girls I dated when I lived in Mississippi is fucking boring. Oh family show.
+
+[1:01:12] He skated by that was still family. Damn. Oh, it's that for the F. They said the F bomb. Now, listen.
+
+[1:01:18] Jessica's crying somewhere. Listen, I would be remiss. I would be is that the name of the is that the name of the girls? It was either Mary Margaret, Mary Lacey, Mary Helen, exactly. Okay, listen, listen, listen.
+
+[1:01:30] I would be remiss if I didn't know the girls you met in the blues. I'm not actually gonna, I'm not actually gonna crack, I'm not gonna crack the joke because it's not good. But I'm gonna explain what the joke would have been. Why don't you tell it? That's even worse telling me.
+
+[1:01:46] But let's talk about it. It's well known that it's well known that Dave Matthews, tour bus driver, dumped all of the poo out of the tour bus through a graded bridge in Chicago onto an architectural uh boat tour. What? And then they got coded in Dave Matthews poo. That's the most rock and roll thing that band ever did.
+
+[1:02:03] That's like it's a well-known fact that yeah, it's just like they're all like, oh that's what happened. And they didn't give a shit. Family show. But the fact of the matter is, Dave Matthews was A not on the bus. He was not on the bus.
+
+[1:02:20] Uh-huh. So it's like roadie. And they immediately apologized. They paid everyone who was on the bus. No, no, no.
+
+[1:02:28] He was his poo. Here's what's on the bus at the time. It was Rhode Island. Have you ever been on an RV? Have you ever been on an RV?
+
+[1:02:34] They store poo for a while. No professional poos on the bus. Yeah. Anyway, my point being that they the bus driver A went to prison and B had paid a fine, was fired, and Dave Matthews, like He went to prison for that? Oh, he was the fall guy.
+
+[1:02:48] No, no. Dave Matthews handled it very well. And the point is that a lot of his fans, and I'm not a fan. I like I I don't care about that style of music. It's not my thing.
+
+[1:02:58] But like I don't hate him, I don't love him. He's just I'm not I'm I'm nowhere on it. It's something it's sort of like uh I've never seen a fish concert, I've never seen a Dave Matthews concert. I did see a Grateful Dead concert. Well, that's in the 80s.
+
+[1:03:10] But we won't talk about that? Yeah. Oh, in the 80s, ripping. Yeah. But my but my point is is that uh I I have no I have no pony in this race.
+
+[1:03:14] But the the thing is uh he handled it well. And how did he handle it? But that's where this wine comes from. No, but my issue is I was gonna make a joke about fertilizing with his tour bus. Ah, nice.
+
+[1:03:29] But you know what? I don't even I don't understand. There's a lot of backstory you have to know to get it. Yeah, I mean, such a thing, that's why I didn't do it. I got it.
+
+[1:03:38] But you did do it. But you did it. You did it for like five minutes. I meta did it. But I like I like knowing that story because I yeah, I mean, I didn't even know that story.
+
+[1:03:45] But I usually don't pick like the news alerts for Dave Matthews Band. I turn I never had them on. Really? Yeah, I didn't, not even in like high school. From all accounts, I would have random notes the hell out of it.
+
+[1:03:56] Listen, listen. I I I like I like those wines that they made. I'm a huge supporter of of not newer because it's hundreds of years old, but like up and coming wine regions, so I'm like super jacked about Virginia wines in general. I really like that. Uh I like I like them both.
+
+[1:04:11] And um I thought the Vyani is great. Yeah, and I don't listen. I like I said, I'm not like musically, that's not my my jammy jam. But you like jam though, if you like Primus, it's jammy. Yeah, but like that like well, I'm a bassist.
+
+[1:04:26] Definitely not to bring it back to play. I'm a bassist, I'm a bassist. So if you're a bassist. Does that mean you hate bass players? No, I love Les Claypool.
+
+[1:04:34] That's bassist. Oh, that's yeah, that's basist. That's basic. I missed that. Okay.
+
+[1:04:39] Yeah. Anyway, but uh, and so like there's no one that handles hammer ons and taps in the way that Les Claypool does. I mean, uh and I'm a huge fan. What's about Dave Matthews right now? What?
+
+[1:04:50] No, yeah. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, it's not, I'm not like it's not like my style of music. Right. You know what I mean? But he does do a lot of stuff like farm to table.
+
+[1:04:59] He's from Virginia and South Africa, but he grew up in Virginia, and he's gone back there. He has a farm there. He's he supports local farmers. Farm to table on the tour bus, that's for sure. Farm farm to tour boat.
+
+[1:05:10] Sorry. Alright, I'm done talking. No, he's cool. He in that way. Yeah.
+
+[1:05:15] It's like the jumping poop off the tour bus kind of way. When's Steve Miller gonna make a free wine? That'd be amazing. Do you like Steve Miller? I love Steve Miller.
+
+[1:05:26] Yeah. He's incredible. You know what Nastasia once said? No hit songs. That's not what I mean.
+
+[1:05:30] Joker? Twilight. No hit songs. Steve Miller band's greatest hits. That's not accurate.
+
+[1:05:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway. And Steve Miller, apparently also good guy. Paid the guy who wrote uh Big Old Jet Airliner. Paid him even though he didn't need to pay him, paid him, and that was the only money that freaking guy made.
+
+[1:05:50] And he was blind. Alright, so this is we're back to DLM. We're going back and that's the one. That's the dude from Tanatuva. Exactly.
+
+[1:05:56] Yeah, he wrote and he was the guy who also went to and became like the Mongolian throat singing champion. Yeah. Which no one should do. Well, if you're good documentary. That was a good movie.
+
+[1:06:08] That was a good movie. Is it one of those weird things just like it's a little bit more than a couple of Genghis Blues? Worth watching. It's not really two notes. People.
+
+[1:06:14] People, it's not really two notes. They're just getting some resonance in their throat. This is Daniel Glitzer's. You're just making didgeridoo noises, Daniel. That's no, that's that's producing the harmonic above the fundamental tone.
+
+[1:06:27] As we say enfoncée, that is not like that's not really two notes. Two notes is producing like an A and a D at the same time. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You no, you you you know not of what have you speak. No, I know I I I enjoy not of what you speak.
+
+[1:06:41] That's the issue. I enjoy not of what you speak. Dave, you know a lot, but you but but no? Like it, no, but it's but it's interesting. You know what?
+
+[1:06:54] Like I can like like kind of frizzle fry. I can listen to like Pakistani like Sufi music, like the Sabri brothers all day long, because that stuff rocks. Like people sitting down and trying to make harmonics with their with their throat. I agree. It's a it's a party trick.
+
+[1:07:10] All right. I just dismissed the whole culture. Yeah. That's rough. That's American.
+
+[1:07:14] That's no, but that's America. All right, let's go back. We're on DLM. We're on DLM. Yeah, but the LM Riesling.
+
+[1:07:22] 2012 North Coast The Cov. Studio. Studio. Yeah, really? Riesling.
+
+[1:07:31] Look at the cave drawing that's on the label. It's a caveman with a flying V. That is pretty strong. Check it out. Flying V, by the way, not a very good guitar shape.
+
+[1:07:41] Oh, but it's excellent for getting to high access on the Rick Nielsen. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, but most of those guys aren't really like who played a vi flying V that like needs that. Like who's like Randy Rhodes. I completely misunderstood flying Vicky Nielsen.
+
+[1:07:56] Kirk Hammett. Cliff. Alright. I lose. I lose.
+
+[1:07:59] He's like a metal. I think you've really met your your mouth. I lose, I lose. Like I'm willing to know what I lose. Yeah, we can keep going.
+
+[1:08:05] The flying V has its place. It's not a really good sounding guitar. Michael Schenker. But you do it for what you're doing. Michael Schenker.
+
+[1:08:13] It's not your only guitar on the stage, usually. But you whip it up for certain songs. My uncle, my Uncle Marty sold everything he owned to buy a flying V in 1979. Well that was not a good idea. Yeah.
+
+[1:08:26] It definitely was not a good idea. No. I mean, if you're having one guitar. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's a novelty guitar, but don't.
+
+[1:08:33] At the time he was going out with a go-go dancer. This was in New Jersey. I would have loved to party with them with the city. That sounds like a great time. Sounds like a Springsteen.
+
+[1:08:44] He bought a spirit. Told everything here. Come on, guys, everybody grab a bottle. Let's play. Anyway.
+
+[1:08:55] I can still remember what I can still remember what I'm saying. I was only eight or nine. I still remember what she looked like. It was like right before the 80s hit, and she had that, she had that like that flare out in her hair and the frost, the slight frost, and like the the cheek thing. I don't know what you mean by that.
+
+[1:09:12] You know the like the red on the cheek thing. Oh, okay. Not like, you know, a rouge. I don't know. It's not like stubble.
+
+[1:09:19] I don't know whether she was old school like hookers. Oh, you're calling my uncle's girlfriend from 1979 a hooker. What I'm saying is that ladies pinch. Ladies' pinch. Ladies pinch.
+
+[1:09:30] Men rubber band. Contour. Men rubber band. Men contour. If you've never known anyone who has danced, a man who's danced as for a living, rubber bands play.
+
+[1:09:42] We all know a man who's danced for a living because Clipton's here. He dances clothed for a living. He dances. That's what you think. It's all paint.
+
+[1:09:52] And he's not that clothed. He's clothed now, people. I want you a visual image. We all have clothes on. Will someone take a group photo?
+
+[1:09:59] Yeah. Anyway, so uh we have a lot to get to that we're not going to get to. I'll get to it next week. I have questions on uh possible cancer links with Karaginan. For the Clevroy.
+
+[1:10:10] For anyone who's still listening, Greg Blonder from uh who's amazing, go to his blog, Greg Blonder, wants anyone to talk in, call in, tweet in about vacuum infusion and vacuum marination and pressure marination, because we're gonna talk about it on the show next week, our experiences with it. We have to talk about uh cordial at uh Burning Man. I have a whole bunch of stuff I have to get to that's not Rockstar Wine related. But this has been the Walks Rockstar Wine Cooking Issues, and maybe if ACDC sends us some more wine, we'll do it again sometime. But this has been, and thank you everyone.
+
+[1:10:42] Cooking issues! What no bottle orchestra? Come on, I've been waiting. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:11:04] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives. I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. I love getting together with people in the industry. I like hosting my show because to me it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious. Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling.
+
+[0:30] Please become a member today at Heritage Radio Network.org. Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit Firesider.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:53] If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive from the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from eh a little late this time, still roughly noonish to like, you know, around one o'clock every Tuesday from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Hey, speaking of uh Bushwick Brooklyn, my subway uh, you know, they're constructing or something, so it went like uh one stop too far, and I got to take a different walk than I normally do, which means I was paying a little bit of attention. Some classic bushwick on the walk over here.
+
+[1:41] Check this out, Nastasia. First of all, pass by King's Distillery, you know, which is right near here, Kings County Distillery. And like typical, like, by the way, this neighborhood, if you've never been to it, is like a bunch of hipsters have actually moved here, but this is supposed to be an industrial neighborhood, right? It's like all like low industrial neighborhood with roll-ups, like some residential buildings, and like just like a lot of trucks and stuff coming around. So anyway, like they have their warehouse here, I guess maybe it's even where they age it.
+
+[2:07] The roll-up is up because it's hot as hell, right? No one guarding it, all their whiskey barrels right there. Literally, like on the ground, like if it had been you and me there, I would have been like, let's just I mean, like, let's leave a note saying we're not actually stealing. This is a security test, and just roll it. Just roll it, roll it out, roll it down the street, and go.
+
+[2:25] There is not a single soul there. Then I loop the corner and I find that of course someone's working on a high low because someone's always working on the roads around here on the uh on the overheads on the wires, and some incompetent truck driver, like you know, okay, sideswiped it, so there's a like the complete street is completely shut down because of this like giant truck sideswiping a high-look. Then I see, like in more classic uh Bushwick, a 76 El Dorado convertible, which by the way is a sweet car, but beat completely to hell Anastasia and being used as a uh extra storage closet because they don't want to pay for the uh you you know what were those things called? The storage places, yeah. Manhattan.
+
+[3:05] Yeah, but here's the classic, and here's what makes it so awesome, and something that I would have done back in the day. They got the historical license plate for it, so they wouldn't have to pay as much uh for insurance, and they can still keep it on the street. Oh, Brooklyn, you know how I love it. Yeah, uh anyway. Uh do any good cooking?
+
+[3:21] No. No? No, but you're getting a duck meal report from my sister's roommate. Yeah, live. 530.
+
+[3:27] Yeah. All right. So roommate, like lives with her. Okay, who is it? JR.
+
+[3:36] JR. Alright. But uh so he he's being called a roommate for the purpose of the show. But it's uh it's lame. She won't call in.
+
+[3:44] She's always busy. Yeah, busy. Busy. Busy or scared? We're not sure.
+
+[3:48] We'll ask JR when he calls in uh to the show at uh at 12 30. So uh what else? Then make sure he's like, you know, a solid dude. Well, I mean, Nastasia knows him quite well. I mean, I don't know, like, you know, my opinion on it is you know, quite meaningless.
+
+[4:03] Call in your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. We have a lot of questions to get to because we didn't do any last week because of the uh Rockstar thing. By the way, uh I'll uh one thing there's a I'm not sure if people liked it. Yeah, I'm not sure if people liked it.
+
+[4:19] Some people liked it. I got some tweets that some people at least liked it. David in the booth. Hello, David. I forgot to call you out.
+
+[4:24] How are you doing? Hello, good, how are you? All right. Are you uh did you hear anything one way or the other? Do they like the new that that that style of show?
+
+[4:31] Uh yeah, chat room, a couple people wanted to have some questions answered, but I think generally the response was favorable. By the way, I cannot believe that it was on uh August 8th and no one made an 808 reference. Nothing sounds quite like an 808, David. Money make it, money, money. It's true.
+
+[4:50] Disco Discovery. Anyway, uh, okay, so we got uh a bunch of questions. Um we have a caller too, whenever you're ready. I'll take the caller first. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[4:58] Hey, it's uh Judy from Alden. Hey, what's up? I was just gonna I in fact I have a question from you today on cookies, right? Yeah, the cookies. Well, uh, you don't have to answer the how many cookies I should take for a hundred dollar question.
+
+[5:16] Because I think I figured that out. Um what was the answer? So the question, by the way, people like because I was gonna go into it. What was the question? Was uh a colleague offered her a hundred dollars to bake in quotes a bucket a bucket of cookies.
+
+[5:29] And the problem is nobody knows what a bucket of cookies looks like. I mean we know what a bucket of chicken looks like but no one knows what a bucket of cookies looks like right so what was the answer and how'd you come across the answer uh I'm thinking three three cookies? No three batches oh three batches I was like oh my goodness that is a tiny bucket or a very large cookie so how many cookies in the batch like how many how many how many cookies well first of all like when you say a batch of cookies how do you want to scale do you want to scale in cookies because cookies if you bake them like my grandma did they're tiny. If you bake them like you know like like Tozy does they're bigger we're talking Toezy style size cookies? Yeah I'm baking Tia's cookies so they're about a heaping tablespoon.
+
+[6:12] Okay and so it's three batches like how many like how many roughly cookies like that is three batches one batch was twenty six. Alright so this person's getting like seventy five cookies assuming that you eat one from each batch to prove that they're okay to yourself they're getting like seventy five cookies for a hundred bucks that's a freaking steal that's a steal that's a steal it's like um uh you'd have to pay two hundred dollars if you want to what size bucket does that go into that go into what what size bucket is is required to hold this thing like I'm not gonna buy a bucket it needs to buy a bucket yeah see see I was thinking about this uh question you know and so the the by the way folks for for those of you don't know they that you're not you don't like do this for a living and in fact, what the the the problem here is you're shifting from a uh I don't know if you've read uh either predictably irrational by Dan Arielli or uh Richard Thaler's misbehaving or Nagrous, but you're moving from a a social norm, right, where you're baking cookies for someone because because they're your buddy into a market norm and it's like totally different. And I think you've fallen into you've fallen into this in uncomfortable, like in between situation because if the person was going to pay you for the cookie, so you're basically you're putting yourself out in a discount situation, which like if you're happy to do it is one thing, but in general, when you switch from a social norm to a market norm and then you undervalue yourself in a market norm uh situation that can lead to like resentment. Let's say you're not willing to bake that many cookies for that amount of money indefinitely, right? Then all of a sudden you've put yourself in an untenable because you've anchored the price, right, with this coworker.
+
+[8:00] I don't necessarily want to have the same career trajectory as Christina Tozzi. Right, right, right. But my point is is that okay, you're if you're over delivering, right? Let's if someone asked me to do something, I'll give you another example. I know a wedding photographer, right?
+
+[8:17] He hated shooting weddings. He hated it, because he's a photographer, wasn't a wedding photographer. What happened was someone said, Hey, we want you to shoot our wedding. And he's like, I don't really want to shoot weddings. They're like, Well, we really want you to shoot the wedding.
+
+[8:29] So he goes, Okay. And he puts it at a number so freaking high, right, that he's like, you know what? Like, if they go for this, they're crazy and I should do it because that's so much money. They went for it. He did that, and then he got a bunch of those other high, high, high paying jobs.
+
+[8:44] If he had gone low just to do it as like a marginal favor, then that he would keep getting asked. You see what I'm saying? So it's like I would like I would I would say charged more for cookies, I'd be able to buy a feed rack. And more well, that's the thing. So like let's say, let's say you think, like, let's say you were gonna do this even like marginally, right?
+
+[9:05] You like the first batch you do, you have to say to yourself, okay, if I don't really want to do this for a living, like what's a high enough number such that I won't be asked to do it again, right? And then like that's what you that's what you charge, and then if they go for it, you're like, well, maybe it's worth doing after all, I have to reassess my choices. If if you do it, uh and then and then it doesn't even matter really what you make off that one batch because you're like, okay, maybe I'll do this again and I'll invest in a bunch of equipment I wanted anyway, like a speed rack, a bunch of sheet pans, maybe some extra SILPAS, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then down the line you'll get a uh, you know, a bigger oven, yada yada yada, right? But you price yourself so high that you're like, mm-hmm. But then if you put yourself in a situation where by the time you factor in your time and anything you have to buy and the and the goods that you're manufacturing, the actual cost, because remember, you're buying ingredients probably and paying a lot more for them than someone who does this for a living is.
+
+[9:57] Do you see what I'm saying? So like you kind of like uh have undervalued yourself in this situation. I was thinking about it on the on the ride over here. But I mean, of course, like uh egg costs two dollars, butter costs three dollars. Yeah, but yeah, that's uh that's on a good day.
+
+[10:12] That's on a good day. I mean, butter on on super sale in a regular supermarket paying retail is three dollars a pound. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, my point being, you know, you just have to like kind of factor these things in when you're switching because see what I would have done is like like I think that anything less than two dollars a cookie and you're you're valuing yourself below the market. And then if they say no, but I don't want to charge professional prices.
+
+[10:35] Well, no, but that's that's my point. These are people I know. Like I wouldn't I would charge like a perfect stranger, maybe more money. Yeah, but see, I think it's like tough. It's like you gotta read this book predictably irrational, where here's the here's the scenario.
+
+[10:44] Let's say someone shows up at your house for Thanksgiving, is the scenario he gives in the book. I think it was this book. And uh, and you cook them a nice Thanksgiving meal because they're your family and you love them, right? So you cook a nice thing. And then what if someone got up afterwards, like, okay, how much do I owe you?
+
+[11:02] You'd be like, what are you talking about? How much do you owe me, right? Because if you were going to do it for a living, you charge a lot more. So you're like putting yourself in this uncomfortable kind of in the middle position, unless you're happy to do it. But then like be expected to ask to do it again and again.
+
+[11:15] You see, I would charge, like, I would charge enough that it would be professional prices. Then they would say, Oh man, and then you'd be like, you know what? Here's a batch of cookies on the house because you're my friend. See? And then like you didn't have to go into the market and yet they got some cookies and they're still your friend, but they won't ask you to do it again because they know now that when you are charging for cookies, you charge this high rate.
+
+[11:39] You see what I'm saying? Well, uh, I guess I see what you're saying, but they're also for the people who have eaten these cookies in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. That's why it's a it's an uncomfortable thing.
+
+[11:51] I I think we should change the topic. You tend to talk about the same subject. I think they're I was just finishing listening to the last podcast, and it's fine if it was just 15 minutes, but nobody got to talk about anything else. Right. Well, that was a sp is a special, it was a it was a one-off special like rock and roll wine thing.
+
+[12:15] It's not like the normal podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I would consider that like a give out. Oh.
+
+[12:21] Yeah, I would consider that just like a special. Okay, but uh but Sash didn't give out her home address to perfect strangers. She she did that? Nastasi gave out her home address to perfect strangers last week on the show. Oh yeah.
+
+[12:35] The pressure cooker. The um Oh, you got it? I don't have it yet. Oh, she'll bring it in. She'll give it to me and I'll read it.
+
+[12:40] Yeah, no, I don't have it yet, but I should send it to her sister. Oh, right, yeah. Well, I'm gonna read it first though, right? Because you wanted me to get some Yeah, I'm gonna read it first and then we'll we'll give it to now the sister. Now to be really cool, yeah.
+
+[12:53] She's not gonna be she doesn't want to be the Dunk Meals correspondent anymore. Apparently I was mean to her on the phone. But she's having her we're calling him. No, now she's calling. She's calling.
+
+[13:02] Oh, she's calling? She's calling. I can side with both you and Stas. Well, that's what makes the show work, right? If you uh if if you if you only sided with one of us, then it wouldn't be fun, and you would just, you know.
+
+[13:14] But uh yeah, I don't know. Uh I I think that's enough for today. All right, cool. I usually wouldn't be able to call in like this but um working at Sweet Green uh has taken a big emotional psychological pull and uh you uh do you got how much do you know about sweet green? Not much.
+
+[13:39] Okay, so we make uh 300 sales an hour and live store Monday through Friday between eleven and two. People will wait upwards of a half hour. And there are several in your area. All right. Uh wa in new in uh in New York and Manhattan or over here in Brooklyn.
+
+[13:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Every well I I don't know if they're in Brooklyn, but we're in Manhattan. Well, I'll definitely check it out. And uh you you you think about the cookie price.
+
+[14:09] All right, you you think about the cookie price thing more and then and then you know, email us back and let us know what you think. You think about the curing saber question. What okay. All right, we'll do. We'll uh we'll talk we'll talk about it soon.
+
+[14:23] Alrighty? Okay, all right. All right, thanks. All right, bye. All right.
+
+[14:27] Uh wait, so what we're gonna, what were you talking about? Don't know. All right. Uh let me see here. So your sister like decided to call in after all, Nastasia?
+
+[14:36] I think so. You think so? Yeah. Anyway. All right.
+
+[14:40] So I feel like uh we had um um we got a c uh question in last week from Chris. Here it is. Have you looked into the level of evidence linking carrageenins to inflammation or bowel cancer? Uh so carrageenins, for those of you that don't know, are a class of hydrocolloids that are developed for uh that are made from um various species of red seaweed, right? And uh carrageenins are thickeners, have been used uh for centuries and centuries in cooking.
+
+[15:09] Uh the common name would be like an Irish moss. Uh and uh they have a very specific synergistic reaction with milk. So the super interesting thing about carrageenans is that uh i because of the synergistic reaction with milk, it takes a preposterously small amount of carrageenin to gel a milk system. So it's used extensively, especially in things like yogurt and uh ice cream uh and other uh thickening chocolate milk, for instance. Uh but it's typically used in vanishingly small amounts because uh of that synergistic uh effect with milk.
+
+[15:49] Now, also an interesting thing about carrageenins is carrageenins are um not a it's not like sugar, which is pretty much just a molecule, sucrose, right uh carrageenins are a a they're a polysaccharide but they're not in any sense pure in other words they're a mixture of three or four different types of molecules called now the main molecule kinds are kappa caragenin. Kappa caragenin is is brittle uh and very very closely related actually to agar which is another uh uh hydrocolloid uh it just has the the difference between them has to do with uh the the sulfates on them anyway so kappa caragina very close to agar in structure and in uh texture in fact um it melts at a lower temperature than agar but it it's fairly similar there is uh iota carrageenin and iota is uh a lot uh softer and bouncier than uh kappa so it's very different um kind of uh even though it's very closely related very very different uh kind of texture uh iota is also interesting because uh gels made with iota when you shear them will re somewhat reset after after time so they're uh interesting uh for that and they're widely used. Lambda carrageenins are more thickening carrageenins they don't really gel but all actual natural carrageenins are mixtures of these things uh and they're they're made uh industrially to specify certain kinds of uh uses so you'll be if someone says they're giving you kappa carrageenin what they mean is they're giving you mostly kappa caragina with a bunch of other stuff in it that's been standardized for a particular application let's say ice cream anyway uh so that's a long uh introduction uh into what so long in fact that my phone was like maybe you're not watching me anymore and it turned off uh so that's kind of what carrageenin is. Now, um the thing about it is that um it has been it was rumored to have uh caused uh cancer. Now most of the stuff about cancer and specifically in kappa carrageenin, it comes from decades ago uh in the uh in the 80s.
+
+[17:54] Uh but every once in a while there's a kind of a uh a resurgence of it, and the question is how strong is the data? Uh and then um I'll read exactly what uh the question was if uh oh it got uh it got oh okay. Have you looked into the level of ev evidence linking carrageenins to inflammation or bowel cancer? Uh I'm still on a quest for a fresh espresso, espresso that is stable for at least five minutes, and lambda carrageenin seems promising, but Wikipedia and a few other sources, not just crackheads, suggest a potential risk. Thanks for any insight you might have, uh data or alternative approaches.
+
+[18:26] Love the show every week and looking forward to the centrifuge uh Chris. Okay, so the the deal is is that most of the current stuff that's being put out, when I say current, really like 15 years old, are in this country anyway, is put out by a particular person. Her article, her name is Tobacmin, and her uh review article from 2001 is available on the web for free. Um and it's called something like uh potential health effects of carrageenin and the diet dietary carrageenin. And the here's the deal.
+
+[18:56] No one really thinks that carrageenin, uh the actual carrageenin is uh is bad for your health. All of the all of the data is focused on something called degraded carrageenin or polygenin. And what this is is uh kerragenins that have been broken down into real real much smaller um molecular uh weight molecules than you would have in um carrageenin that's actually kind of used uh industrially. And so her point is, and so it's so basically no one thinks that care regular caragenin is uh causing cancer, okay? Now, the question is is okay, now does this degraded carrageenin polygenin cause cancer?
+
+[19:38] Now, most of the studies for uh degraded carragenin are feeding directly feeding uh degraded caragenin to things like rats, pigs, and mice. And in general, they're feeding them at levels like one percent in the diet, i.e., 1% of everything that you eat is degraded uh uh or drink is degraded carrageenin. And at levels between 1% and 5%, which is a gigondous amount of carrageenin, um of degraded, straight, they're feeding a straight degraded carrageenin, either in the liquid diet or in the solid diet, there have like it does show um it does show the um uh the increased uh cancer rates and inflammation rates in in those things. The studies in, first of all, you can't do that study in humans, that would be ridiculous. So no one no one's done that.
+
+[20:28] I believe she has participated in some epidemiological studies. I didn't get a chance uh to to read them. Uh now here's the issue, right? That's all degraded carrageenin. Now the her one of her main arguments, she has two main arguments.
+
+[20:41] One, that uh carragenins as sold, like I told you before, don't have uh a specific molecular weight. So any carrageenin sample that you have possibly has a bunch of lower molecular weight polygenin in it, right? Because they're not specified. Now, whether or not an actual sample has that in it, who knows? I don't, but it's not specified, for instance, or or um written in it that this contains no uh fraction smaller than let's say, you know, 10,000 uh you know uh Daltons and what or whatever they measure.
+
+[21:12] I don't know how they measure it. Um because Daltons, I think is only for proteins, I can't remember. Okay. Point being that uh it might be polydispersed this way. The other uh issue she has is that is that in the stomach, now when you the way you make polygenin, degraded carageenin, is you take carrageenin and you heat it in the presence of acid.
+
+[21:30] And so one of the uh contentions has always been that in the stomach, possibly carageenins can uh get converted into degraded carrageenin. So there is a study that she references in her in her 2001 study from 1983, done in Europe where they just took carageenin, they put it in at 37 uh degrees, which is roughly body temperature, and they put it at one mole point one molar hydrochloric acid, which is by the way, the maximum that your stomach gastric juices ever get. And actually the pH that they had, which they referenced, I don't know if it's a typo, they referenced that they had a pH of one, it might have just been a typo, which is way below the pH of gastric juices most of the time. Most of the time your gastric juices are about ha uh point five per point five uh uh point oh five to point one molar uh hydrochloric acid equivalent anyway, that neither here nor there. And they showed that there was caragenin uh degradation being done uh over that length of time, six hours inside the stomach, to the point where it was classified uh as having uh some degraded caragenin in it.
+
+[22:33] Now, first of all, that's showing that taking carrageenin and putting it in the stomach creates some degraded carrageenin. Remember though, in the other ones, they're feeding straight degraded carragenin, not partially degraded uh car, you know, full caragenin. And furthermore, uh logic would dictate that that degraded carrageenin gets degraded even further into smaller subfractions. So I would say the evidence relatively weak, real very kind of weak. It's you know, uh the evidence is weak?
+
+[22:59] The evidence, the evidence is weak? You are weak. Anyway, I would say it's weak evidence. I don't feel bad feeding it to my family and the levels that uh are currently being used. I don't see any reason why this particular hydrocolloid, in other words, I don't know that like they didn't say, okay, we did the study with uh Carragen and now we're gonna run it with agar, and yes, agar is much worse than carrageenan.
+
+[23:21] So I don't really the studies didn't have kind of that level of understanding why there would be a causal relationship versus other kinds of similar uh undigestible fibers. So until I see that or until I research more, I would continue I I me personally would continue to use it, but that's the actual data if you want to uh go look at it and make a decision for yourself. Yeah. Hey Dave, we got uh JR on the line. Oh we got oh, so it was JR.
+
+[23:46] All right, JR, you're on the air. Our dump meals, our dump meals co-correspondent JR. How are you doing? I'm good. How about yourself?
+
+[23:54] Doing well, doing well. So describe the dump meal you made for us this week. He didn't make it. Oh, okay. Describe the dump meal uh that Natty made for us, our our other dump meal correspondent Natty.
+
+[24:03] You're just the report the reporter on the dump meal. So what what was it? Right. If Natty is the dump meal correspondent, I'm like the auxiliary reporter. Oh, I like that.
+
+[24:13] So you're like, okay, the yeah, I don't know. We'll figure it out. You know how like CNN has a billion titles, so that like everyone somehow seems like they're the chief political correspondent. You have to seriously, like there's 50,000 people at CNN who are all somehow the chief correspondent for something. It's kind of like, you know, there's a sculpture in front of Columbia University's uh art uh sorry uh law library that is the largest of something, but it has so many qualifiers on it.
+
+[24:39] It's like the largest semi-relief, semi-free standing, attached law school. It's like one of those. So we'll figure out some title for you like that where it seems like you're in charge. Right, right. You've got a chief like country correspondent, chief national correspondent, chief US correspondent.
+
+[24:55] It's all about, you know, trying to get some name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you want to you what do you want to be? You want to be the chief national dump meal correspondent? You know, I'm just kinda taking it day by day here, just kind of not get yelled at.
+
+[25:07] All right, all right. Well, listen, if I yell if remember I've never met you. So if I yell at you, it can't be personal. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:15] All right, so go ahead. So what was the dumb meal? So these so the dump meals. Um, so there were three actually this week that we tried out. Again, I didn't make them personally, but I had some kind of role.
+
+[25:27] Um we had a peach cobbler. Oh, peach cobbler, describe. How do you how the hell do you make a cobbler dump? What was the crunchy on top of the cobbler that was done in the in the crock pot? Yes.
+
+[25:38] Um there w it was pretty I I was surprised at kind of the texture and that it was actually like crunchy. Oh, what was it? It had a good element there. Well, what was it? Do you know what was in it?
+
+[25:50] Sorry, I couldn't hear you on that one. W what was in it? Like what were the ingredients? Like what was the preparation? Um, so again, I was working the late shift, so I didn't have great details on how it was made.
+
+[26:04] Uh but I do know that there was some granola and I think peaches and a few other things. But peaches, when we say peaches, we talking like peaches like off a tree, or we talking peaches from a can, or are we talking Peaches the Rock Star? We're talking about peaches from a can, not from a tree. Um but they were actually um pretty good. It was delicious, actually.
+
+[26:24] So canned peaches and granola for a billion hours in a crock pot is fundamentally what we're talking about. Uh here we go. Recipe call for 1.5 cup oats, two-thirds cup buttermilk baking mix. Buttermilk baking mix? What is buttermilk baking mix?
+
+[26:40] You said I use the one for waffles and pancakes. This quick teaspoon cinnamon teaspoon nutmeg, one cup sugar, one cup light brown sugar, eight medium peaches sliced. Whoa, so an actual peach was killed for this? I used four because it was a mini crock pot. Uh left it in for six hours, took some nycle and passed out.
+
+[27:00] And never mind. I was actually told, I you know, again, my correspondent gave me the details that it was actually real peaches. Yeah, yeah, real peaches, yeah. But is there NyQuil in the dump meal? Was it like a is it like a nutcracker dump meal?
+
+[27:14] Wow. Wow. In which case you have visions of it being awesome as you're passing out. Maybe why are you thinking it's a little bit more? So the oh wait, so is oh, the oatmeal somehow crunched out on top.
+
+[27:24] Alright, what was the second dump meal? Uh by the way, what is your idea of delicious? Do you find McDonald's apple pies delicious? No, I don't actually. Okay, why?
+
+[27:35] Tell me why, so I know where you're coming from. Why do you not find them delicious? I mean, I think there's a feeling of freshness in the cobbler that we made uh that isn't there in the McDonald's. He's being like a real CNN reporter, avoiding the question. Secondly, like one of the fundamental problems of the McDonald's apple pie is it is weak in acidity and salt.
+
+[28:02] At least, okay, I haven't had one in in 20 years. But back the last time I had one, and I've had them both baked and fried because they did a switch over, right? And they're just not they're not, you know. The what is what in your opinion, what is the best easily gettable fake, mass produced pie? Right.
+
+[28:20] No, I mean what is it? What's the what what yeah it's like do you like hostess pies? I don't. Okay. Hostess pies are poor quality, but they taste good.
+
+[28:30] See, I'm trying to like ferret you out here. Why do you not like hostess pies? Why do I not like them? Yeah, do you not like them in theory, or do you actually think that they are a bad tasting item of food? Um I think they're a bad taste, and like frankly, I think that people want things that feel fresh and feel like there's real sugar in it as opposed to artificial.
+
+[28:52] What's artificial sugar? You mean corn syrup? Yeah. Don't get me started, JR. All right.
+
+[28:58] All right, what's the next what's the next dump meal? What's the next dump meal? The next one is mac and cheese. Oh my God. Okay.
+
+[29:07] So, how was mac and cheese that had been kept uh in a crock pot for six hours? It was actually quite good. Um used some shell pasta noodles. Um, and I don't know, like very good. Well, it wasn't necessarily like very like dewy um in the way that like Wait, sweet.
+
+[29:27] So was if it wasn't in what way was it good if it wasn't give me the recipe, Nastasi. I don't have that one. We have to get the actual recipe so I can insult the actual recipe bit by bit. I don't have any idea what JR's actual like yeah, no, what his like idea of a good mac and cheese is. JR, you're uh you're a uh you're a Yaley, yes?
+
+[29:48] Yeah. Okay. I have had Yale University's uh macaroni dishes in the past and their Roman rice and beans and all of those things. How did it compare to Yale Dining Hall? Um I wish this was Wait, what?
+
+[30:02] He fuzzed out there. He's got he's just like a real correspondent. When like when the going gets tough, the sk the feed gets dicey. We're keeping it accurate on the show, though. We're going for real.
+
+[30:20] Alright, so wait. So wait, how are you there, Jr? Yes, I'm how was it compared to the Yale dining hall macaroni? I said I thought it was far superior. Far superior.
+
+[30:32] I would also tell you that personally I'm not a very big fan of the dish in general, but I really liked it. And it was even in like the heat of the summer, it was very good. It felt like very even light, I would say. Okay, but like I what was in it? Was it just like a mac and cheese, or did it have chopped up tomatoes on top, for instance?
+
+[30:50] Did it have a breadcrumb topping on top that was added after it came out of the dump Stravaganza? Because that would add some sort of texture to an otherwise textureless overcooked pasta dish. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. What was the uh what was the che what was the cheese component?
+
+[31:05] Do you know? Did you see what cheese went into it? I Zach. Um, but I I Velvita, Velvita, please. I know I'm not sure.
+
+[31:15] Please, Velvita, Velvita, Velvita. By the way, Velveeta, uh, I think we've talked about this on the show before, but Velveeta was built for queso. You like queso, right, Stas? Yeah. Yes, queso, delicious.
+
+[31:27] Rotel tomatoes, Velveeta. Here's a secret though. Velveeta is very expensive. So if you don't want to use all Velvita, you can take Velveeta and supplement the rest of it with like other uh cheeses and use the excess emulsifiers that are in the Velveeta to pull everything back into the queso kind of uh realm. Alright, did you have another dump meal to describe to us today?
+
+[31:51] I have one last one. Yes, I have sticky rice pudding. Oh my god. And that was actually this is the one that was used from a new book that we received recently. Uh and as opposed to all the others that you've heard about over the course of the past few weeks that were from one book.
+
+[32:10] Um and this one was also good. It was kind of like a coconut um sticky rice pudding. Um very flavorful. Um, and yeah, very positive readout. Literally all three were very, very good.
+
+[32:20] Did it use Thai black sticky rice or did it use regular short grain glutinous white rice? Uh we use it in grain rice. What? Was it white or black? See, my sticky rice puddings I like.
+
+[32:36] I like using the Thai black sticky rice, it still has a hull on it because it like you do you ever use that stuff, Stas? Remember, we used to cook with it occasionally. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I love that stuff because it's glutinous rice on the inside, but not as sticky on the outside. It's got that beautiful color to it.
+
+[32:50] Yeah. That would look honestly, if you're gonna crock pot something like a sticky rice pudding, that's the one that I would go for of these three, right? That's the one that I would probably go for. But uh, but what we need is we don't have a list of the stuff so we know what went on top. I know.
+
+[33:07] The main problem we have here, JR is that there needs to be a differentiation in texture in foods that you eat. Otherwise, this is the problem with nursing home food is that there's no freaking differentiation in texture. Everything is made so that it can be gummed by anyone because they don't actually respect the people they're feeding. Not this is that's a harsh generalization, but I'm saying that in many places that I have seen, there's a lack of, and in hospitals as well, a lack of respect for the eater. And what that typically means is I'm gonna make life easy for myself and I'm gonna jam Pablum down your throat with it with no texture, right?
+
+[33:38] And so the problem with the dump meal in general is the creation of alternate textures. Same problem with anything. Same problem with low temperature cooking, same problem with all this, is that you need a variation in texture. So, like my one of the key questions here is if I'm gonna write a dump meal book, right? All of the textural adjuncts are gonna have to be thrown on after it comes out of its six-hour hell steep inside of the little bucket of death.
+
+[34:00] You know what I mean? Like there's plenty of stuff that can chill for six hours that are relatively high temperature. It's just but you need to have somehow to crunch it up. Like, what's one of the greatest things on earth? Duck comb fee.
+
+[34:11] One of the greatest things on earth, right? Yeah, but who eats it right out of the thing without crisping up the skin? Enemies of quality do that. Evil people do that. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:20] It's like anyway. So like what we have to figure out is how the different textures were. Not to be scared. Yeah, don't be scared. And listen, if you want to be the chief national dump meal correspondent, you gotta get the recipes down so you can insult them or whatever.
+
+[34:34] I mean, I don't know whether you're taking like we have people accusing you, JR, of being in the pocket of big dump. I mean I guess I should have disclosed my interest before I came on the air. Yeah, definitely. All right, well, listen. Well, we appreciate it.
+
+[34:50] And we'll get those recipes and we'll report back to people maybe next week. Thank you. Thanks a lot. All right. Thank you.
+
+[34:55] Thanks for having me on. All right. Uh have a good rest of the show. All right, cool, thanks. Uh okay.
+
+[35:00] By the way, remember uh Russ, uh, who is uh 23 wrote in about espresso a while ago? I feel like we didn't fully answer. I think we did. We did? Yeah, you definitely Russ, if you need more information on how to go cheap on espresso, I I'll say this one thing in case I forgot to say it before.
+
+[35:14] The issue is is that uh because he was interested in using that ROK, which is the pressure thing. All right, look. I'll just say this again. Uh there is something cool about taking the incredibly hard route to make a single cup of coffee when you're 23. The problem is, and I say the same thing, it's about people who are doing uh like uh back when everyone was writing about doing um low temperature cooking by using coolers, giant like uh insulated coolers, and you know, can you cook a steak using a five-gallon cooler and you know heated tap water by calculating the all the the final temperature and your temperature drop and the and the strike temperature of the water?
+
+[35:59] Sure. Let me ask you this would you do this on a regular basis? Answer no, right? Because when do you actually need coffee, Russ? Like, you need coffee in the morning when you are not a human being.
+
+[36:11] When you wake up and your eyelids are glued shut because you're like kind of sick and you had all those things you were working on the night before, you're tired as all heck. You can barely get up to go to the bathroom and take a shower. And at that moment in your life, it's when you really want a nice good cup of coffee. And if you have to go jump through 18 flaming hoops at that point in your life to get that cup of coffee, you're just never gonna have that cup of coffee. That's all, right?
+
+[36:38] What do you think, Stuz? I don't care. About coffee? I really don't care. About what?
+
+[36:42] About coffee, about making coffee. I just don't care. Nastasia buys her coffee on the street. No, I just make it into Mr. Coffee.
+
+[36:50] Why do you not care about coffee? I just don't care at all. Why? I don't know. Why?
+
+[36:56] Because I put milk and sugar in it. So you're saying that people who put milk and sugar in their coffee shouldn't care? I I just really don't. Why? I just don't care.
+
+[36:59] Coffee to me is coffee. And I really hate it. What's interesting to me is that you're like obstinately don't care. It's not like well, because I it's only because you care so much that I I'm letting you know I do not care. Because I care.
+
+[37:21] So if I didn't care, you would care. No, I still don't. That's what you just said. I still don't care. That's what you just said.
+
+[37:25] But I'm letting you know, because you can't, that does not get through your head. I do not care about coffee. All these years, eight years, I don't care about coffee. Before I met you, didn't care about coffee. Do not care about coffee.
+
+[37:36] How do you consume something every day and not care? How do you like every day consume something and what I brew and that's it? Well, you but you said you like it. That doesn't mean you don't care. I'm not sure.
+
+[37:48] But your advice to this person is care a ton. And I'm saying that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying she doesn't even listen to what I freaking say. What I'm saying is make your life easy because in the morning, when you actually need a cup of coffee, you don't want to have to jump through a bunch of hoops. You literally didn't listen to anything I said.
+
+[38:05] You didn't listen to one word that I said. I said that when you're 23, you were willing to go through a bunch of steps to do something, but take in mind the fact that you need to do it a lot and you don't necessarily want to jump through those hoops all the time. You're telling him to perfect it. That's not what I said at all. That's not what I said.
+
+[38:21] I said you can do that as an interesting exercise, but it's not something you necessarily want to do every day. Okay. Didn't listen to anything. People does not listen to a thing I say. Did not even get the gist of what I was saying.
+
+[38:33] I'm surprised how much I listened to what you say. Then how do you not get the gist of what I was saying? You start talking about coffee and I'm done. Like it's not a good thing. See, that's what I'm saying.
+
+[38:39] You don't even care about what I'm saying. I could be saying don't drink coffee. I could be saying you still drink it. You know what you should do, Nastasia. Just buy no dose, crush it up and put it in Kool-Aid and drink it in the morning.
+
+[38:50] Caffeine pills. No. Just get something to make you poop in the morning. I'm gonna buy you a mixture of X Lax and No Dose. Coffee.
+
+[38:58] Like when I stayed at your house, I had to bring my own Mr. Coffee. That's do you care enough to bring your own freaking coffee machine? No, but I'm saying. You're just a liar!
+
+[39:06] No, that's a good thing. You care only to make comments. That's all you care about. You care a lot about coffee. People, she doesn't care about coffee.
+
+[39:13] I have an automated machine. Since like I have an automated machine. She cares enough about coffee to bring her own coffee machine. If she really didn't care, she would just turn on my machine and take whatever came out of it. I don't know how to use it.
+
+[39:26] You had that like drill on the top of your bean thing. No. No, first of all, then you could just bring coffee and throw coffee into the machine. You don't care what it's like. You don't care if it's pea water.
+
+[39:37] No, no. You keep on making up new things to go along. You said to me, I'm not touching your machine because I don't want to. That's not a machine. No, no, no.
+
+[39:45] That's garbage. You are just obstinate. I'm not. You want me to care about coffee? No, you okay, people.
+
+[39:51] Let me ask people. Anyone in the chat room who happens to be there right now. Does someone who does not care about coffee bring a coffee machine to somebody's house three hours away that they had to unplug and take off of their counter, bring special coffee to use because I don't have that kind of ground. Yes, you did. Special meaning any.
+
+[40:09] I had coffee in my house. So the function she goes, brings her coffee machine and brings her coffee. I submit to you. Does this sound like a person who does not care about coffee? Especially because you could drive five minutes and buy other coffee.
+
+[40:24] No, no, no. Or does this mean someone who just obstinately, like my racist dead grandpa, obstinately only enjoys having garbage to shove it in other people's face and say, see, I like garbage. That I submit to you is what is actually happening. No, I'm not saying I like garbage. Yes, you are.
+
+[40:41] I'm saying I like garbage. You are saying that I will drink pool water. No, that's not true. Someone who doesn't want to spend time wouldn't have thought to pack a coffee machine. Because everybody needs coffee, right?
+
+[40:52] Doesn't everybody need coffee? No. No. Who no? In the morning.
+
+[40:57] No, like I say, I'm gonna I'm gonna buy you X Lacks and No Dos and grind it up. It'll have you go to the bathroom the same way, and it'll wake you up the same way. Chat Room is a fan of Mr. Coffee, by the way. Thank you, chat room.
+
+[41:09] Yeah, but I'm not a I don't I've never said anything negative about Mr. Coffee. Like, I mean, if you're gonna do that, like you'd probably get a technivorum. I don't know if they still sell those, but I'm not a I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that kind of coffee. Nastasia is saying there's something bad about that kind of coffee because she doesn't care about it, and so because she hasn't care about it.
+
+[41:27] You told me that you think it's crap. I never said that. I said the coffee that you buy every day in the morning out of it. No. Nastasia goes to a street corner.
+
+[41:36] I don't anymore. That's what we were talking about. Okay. That when I was telling you you like crap, it tastes like that to me tastes like the Mr. Coffee stuff tastes like the street coffee.
+
+[41:45] Tastes like the stuff I grew up with. Nastasia used to say that the apogee of coffee production was to go to a quilted metal box on the side of the street with plexiglass and get coffee that had been brewed at 3 a.m. with beans that God knows how old they are, like makes chalk full and nuts look like the greatest coffee on earth, was kept in a swivel bucket that entire time, right? And then served to her at some point later in a styrofoam cup that she then ate, drank 20 minutes after that. That she didn't just say that that was acceptable to her, which would have been one thing.
+
+[42:26] She said that's my favorite coffee. The apogee of all coffees. The apogee of all coffees, people. That's I never said that. Uh okay.
+
+[42:38] You said that's your favorite. Anyway. Okay. Uh did we get anything, uh, David from the chat room on whether anyone's tested vacuum uh tumbling or uh pressure infusion? Uh I'm not sure.
+
+[42:50] Let me check. Yeah. Because remember, we're gonna try to do something with uh Greg Blonder from Genuine Ideas uh on that. Oh my gracious. Oh, geez.
+
+[43:00] Did we uh did we handle the uh bitter orange question? Just got an email from Ken Ingber who said, fantastic fight. The I don't care about coffee fight is fantastic. You're taking the husband part, and Dave is taking the wife part in a high energy, pointless bicker. First of all, what makes the what makes one wife and one husband?
+
+[43:21] What's the difference? I don't know. Chat room did say this is the Godwin's law of cooking issues. What's Godwin's? I don't know what I mean.
+
+[43:28] That is the uh adage that any discussion on the internet eventually devolves into somebody making a comparison to Hitler or Nazism. So wait, which one's Hitler and Nazism? No, you made a you made uh racist. Oh, my grandpa was racist and is it actually dead. No, not that specifically, but just the idea that like a discussion will eventually devolve into that.
+
+[43:50] Oh, yeah. Well, that's like, you know, I don't know about Godwin, but it is a hundred percent true that high school debate in t everything there ends up with nuclear war or fascism or Hitler. Everything. Everything. Like uh anyway.
+
+[43:59] Did we answer the bitter orange question already or no? Last week? No. Okay. This is uh from uh Matt Hall.
+
+[44:11] Uh I recently prepared some Cuban style pork shoulder marinated in a moho sauce. Uh initially cooked sous vide and finished off on the grill. I live in Rochester, New York. Our local Wegman's grocery stores are great, but they're not bitter oranges great. The usual recommendation for simulating bitter oranges is a mix of sweet orange and lime.
+
+[44:28] I decided to research the actual composition of bitter oranges. Uh, and sure enough, uh citric acid and malic acid are the primary constituents, but I also found references to fumaric acid. The below article is once as an example, blah, blah, blah. Further research shows that fumaric acid is a well-known acidulant for foods. My question: do you have any experience to comment on whether fumaric acid provides a unique contribution to the flavor profile?
+
+[44:49] Spectrum chemicals supplies food grade fumaric acid, and so I'm ready to give this a shot when one way or the other. Thanks. Um so the answer, short answer is no. I also know that it is used as an acidulant in foods, but I never bothered sourcing it because I was talking to some professional um food formulators, and I talked to them about it, and they said it's mainly there to adjust uh pH to be it to be an uh acidifier without having that much flavor impact. So it's actually more, it's less of a flavor impact acidilant and more of just a um like something to adjust to pH down.
+
+[45:30] I don't know if that's true or not, but I remember that they they someone said that to me, and it's stuck in my head. And once that stuck in my head, like kind of the fire inside of me to go get it kind of fizzled out. Um also, you know I try, I try to, you know, when I recommend things, recommend things that are easier to get than stuff that you get on Spectrum Chemical because their prices are really high. The exception is quinine, just because quinine's a unique kind of a thing that you need, and the results you get using quinine sulfate are so different from the results you get using conchona bark. But uh I get your point.
+
+[46:12] If anyone out there uh in uh chat land or uh can tweet me that they've used fumaric acid and whether it tastes uh substantially different, I'd I'd appreciate it. I mean, obviously, you know, the major acids we use are all different lactic, uh malik, citric, tartaric, uh, and uh phosphoric, phosphoric being the most different and one that Nastasia does not enjoy. But do you like cola? Mm-hmm. But you don't like you never liked anyone's like any everyone who's tried to make a drink with phosphoric acid in the bar, you've hated, right?
+
+[46:43] Yeah, I think so. Is it just because they think they overuse it? Yeah. I can taste it pretty You also don't like if you know there's bicarb in it, you don't like bicarb. Like all those adjusted waters with bicarb you don't like.
+
+[46:56] Right? Dave, we gotta wrap up in a minute. Oh man. Yeah. All right.
+
+[47:00] Um waste it on a fight. Waste it on a fight. All right, well, let me oh my god, we have so much else to talk about. Like uh plums and bitterness. Uh but anyway, I guess we'll have to get back to it next week.
+
+[47:12] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage Radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[47:44] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from sometime like kind of around 12 to like 1245, 1255, sometimes one. Easter time on the Heritage Radio Network in Br broklyn, and the specific area in Brooklyn is Bubba Bushwick. So uh we are here today, Dave Dave's in the booth or David's in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[0:56] Yeah, hey, good. Yeah. We do not have uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. She is in Naples, not Florida. Naples, like the actual city.
+
+[1:06] Oh, she didn't retire to Florida? Can you imagine Nastasia retiring to Naples, Florida? Um, no. She's in the actual, you know, Naples, like Napoli. Uh when I was a kid, you got like we have some some guests here to take Nastasia's place.
+
+[1:24] But uh before I get to that, David, where'd you grow up again? Uh outside of Philadelphia. Yeah. Did you get the uh the Napoli car advertisements when you were a kid? No, never saw them.
+
+[1:33] See, when I was a kid, the word Napoli to me was a used car salesman who literally called his used car lot Napoli. Like, new cars, used cars, come to Napoli. You never heard this commercial? Anyone? No?
+
+[1:47] No. I think it was a New York City and environs area. So, like to me, like when I think of Naples, I think of used cars. I don't think of, you know. I mean, that's kind of sad, right?
+
+[1:57] The local commercials here are pretty amazing. They got a leg up on Philly for sure. Yeah, but as I said before on the air, nothing on New Orleans. New Orleans has like some like sweet local commercials. So taking Nastasia the Hamroad Lopez place, we actually we have two people here.
+
+[2:12] One officially says she's not here, but because she's here, she actually is here. We have this is not who I'm talking about. Nick Wong. Hey Nick. Hi.
+
+[2:21] Hi. Yeah. You might have remembered him from the last time he was on the show when he purposely made faces at me, which you can't see through the internet, but wouldn't wasn't saying anything. But today he's going to say stuff, right? Stuff.
+
+[2:35] Stuff. Yeah, right. So Nick uh came to uh work with me at the French culinary. When were you there? 2008.
+
+[2:42] 2008. And then after that, went to Sambar for what, like a billion years? Plus two. Billion two. A billion two years at Mama Fuku Sambar, then decided he needed to uh sew his non-Mamafuku oats.
+
+[2:55] And where did you go? You went to Grammar Cent to Grammarcy, and then you went out back to California for a while. Worked with uh Chris Costantino, right? Yep. What else did you work anywhere else there?
+
+[3:04] Nastalgia a few places. And then you hightailed it back to the to the good old East Coast, even though you're from California. I say you're from Milpitas, but you're not. Yeah, you just made that up. I made it up.
+
+[3:15] Totally wow, it's you just pulled that out of your ass. It's close though, right? Yeah, kinda. I mean it's a c you know that Booker doesn't allow me to say the word milpedis. I think you told me this once.
+
+[3:26] Yeah, Booker, because like I think it's a hilarious word, and obviously it sounds like, you know. Like millipede. Or like, you know, I don't know, junk. Like you're like junk, like manjunk. Kind of like a like a mill peat.
+
+[3:38] Like, it sounds weird. It sounds weird. It's like the town, it's my other favorite one that Booker won't let me allow me to say over here in Connecticut is uh the Mayanus. He won't let me say the town name Mayanus. There's a town name Mayanus?
+
+[3:48] There is. Well, he says it's pronounced Mianus, and I'm like, prove it. And I've never had anyone call in who lives there and be like, is it Mianus? Is it Mayanus? Phone lines are open.
+
+[3:57] Yeah, phone, yeah. Call in your questions or your correct pronunciation of Mayanus to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. So anyway, where are you actually from then if you're not from Lil Petis? San Mateo.
+
+[4:10] Alright. So then after that it comes back to Mamafuku Sambar. What's your current title there? Uh Chefted Guisine. Cheftak cuisine.
+
+[4:18] That's one of those weird titles. Chef de cuisine can mean like almost anything, right? Pretty much. Yeah. So like, you know, but you're actually coming up with recipes, right?
+
+[4:26] Ain't got anything new that you're working on? Not really. Come on. What do you got new that you're working on? What'd you put on in the menu last month that you that you think is fun?
+
+[4:36] Uh we just did a new scallop crude dish. It's going on in this menu tomorrow. What kind of scallops are you getting? Good ones. What do you do like like you're getting like C Bay?
+
+[4:46] What are you getting? Sea scallops, 1020. Yeah, 1020. You know who you know, my favorite scallops ever? Or the freshest scallops ever.
+
+[4:53] You ever like you ever like like hang out like and where they bring the Nantucket scallops right in and just get them like right there? Is it over by Mayanus? It well, pretty close to my anus. Everything, whenever wherever I'm there, my anus is always pretty close. But the uh no, but like uh Nantucket scallops, like day boat, like right off the thing are like I've actually never shook the live scallop.
+
+[5:13] I've I've always wanted to. I don't I don't know. Yeah, the well the the other thing is I think even when they are like live, like on on the shell, like how long they've been in transit is a huge uh impact on kind of their kind of flavor profile, but I don't know, it's also like when you're hanging out up there, I don't know, the every all the seafood like has a you know it tastes like you're eating it in New England, you know why? Because you are. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:37] Food really tastes different depending on where you're eating it, I think. Like your mental association with the food. Like if you if you hate the people cooking it, it never tastes as good. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:46] What if you're eating it in my anus. Well, again, I'm always I won't go back into it. You're not gonna draw me back into this, Nick. And we also have back into the anus. Oh my god, that was a good one.
+
+[5:56] David, was that you or is that Nick? I wasn't looking. That was me. Sweet. That's sweet.
+
+[6:00] All right. Um we also have with us uh Esther Wester, what's your last name? Ha. Ha, cool. And you're a cook at uh at whi which one of the uh Daniel Ballute establishments?
+
+[6:13] Cafe. Ca Cafe Balud. How's how's it going over there? It's good. Yeah?
+
+[6:17] What do you we make anything fun? You got anything fun? Uh fun dishes? Fun dishes. Yeah.
+
+[6:24] Something that's like like I have to go try it. I like I need to like run. I mean, it's a great place. What what what do I need to go there and eat like right now? She put Korean food on a French restaurant's menu.
+
+[6:33] Really? Like what kind of c like hook me up. Because also Cafe Balou is like of all of them is the more traditional I mean bul like actual like Danielle, I haven't been in years and years, but when I did go, like it was like hardcore, like Garadon service, like like the waiter knows how to like get the fish out of the uh pastry and then like debone it and put the fillets without touching it. Like hardcore, awesome, like like tears to your eyes, old school French. But I mean, to tell you how long ago the last time I was there was Dominic Ansel was still the pastry chef there, so it was like a long time ago.
+
+[7:08] But uh, you know, they all they also had their share of like kind of like um, you know, kind of cutting edge and weird stuff to go with the old school French. But I've always pictured like kind of cafe baloos being like like you know, like a bastion of kind of like a lot of the old school cool Frenchy stuff, right? So what how do you care Koreanify, Koreanify, coriate? To coriate a dish? Yeah.
+
+[7:34] At the at Cafe Balloon. How do you do that? What what did you do? Like what are we talking? Did you add some pepper paste to it?
+
+[7:39] Like, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Did you throw some like wild mountain pickle vegetables onto it? Did you like what did you do? Uh we have we have a voyage section of our menu, and it changes every season.
+
+[7:52] So the next one is Korea. So I was trying to pitch a dish for fish. That's good. That's you have good alliteration there. It's rhyming more, but like a fat more rhyming, but we have a good dish for fish.
+
+[8:03] So, like, what else what are they doing in Korea? Like, how big is the voyage section of the menu? Um, it's a quarter of our menu. That's a big voyage. So, how long have you been doing voyages?
+
+[8:11] They didn't used to have that years ago, did they? Uh, they've had it since Gavin. Yeah, so like how like so again, a long time. But like, so give me give me uh what are you doing to the fish? What are you doing?
+
+[8:21] So I'm I'm doing the special for this past week was a take on aguchim, which is a braised monkfish dish in Korea. So good or bad? Uh visually, pretty shitty. Yeah. Like it's a pile of red fish and then soybean sprouts.
+
+[8:41] So once you overcook a monkfish and then you keep going, like what happens? No, you right, because like monkfish, what's interesting about it is it's got that like kind of like shellfishy kind of texture to it, right? So really, it's okay. So, like, you know how like okay, uh uh you know, Nick, we used to have this discussion, so it's been a long, you know, been having it for years and years. Back I would say like in the mid-2000s, right?
+
+[9:08] When everyone was interested in these hyper low uh fish preparations, and like the the thing that people were most worried about like in life was overcooking your fish, right? That was what everyone was like you know, and and and when you're cooking that style, that prep style, which I think you know, a lot of it came to us via like um like the rocas in uh El Calar con Roca over there, because they were doing a lot of that really low, really low temperature fish, or you know, and then later on you had, I guess when modernist cuisine came out a couple years ago, like that super low temperature gooey duck, the stuff that is like not really cooked in the classic sense of cooked. And so for a number of years, like cooked, when I say cooked, I mean like traditionally cooked fish dishes were like not served. Like you wouldn't get them. You know what I mean at a lot of restaurants.
+
+[9:56] Um but monkfish is one of those fish that I think you want, like I don't really particularly, and people are gonna get mad at me, like the low-cooked shellfish, except for the gooey duck actually, that Miraval and and Chris Young and those guys did. I thought that was excellent, texture-wise. But in general, um, I mean, I don't like my shrimp hammered, I'm not a barbarian. I mean, I like it cooked, but I don't like it. But I don't like it when it's low, especially something like a shrimp.
+
+[10:19] You know how when shrimp is a little bit too under and it's still got a little bit of that paste, that little bit of that hate. I don't like that either. Hate. Hate. Hey, we got a caller on the line.
+
+[10:30] All right, one second. So yeah, so we're gonna take a colour in a second. But but here's my question. So when you're doing monk fish, you actually want it to be a little bit springy. So it seems like it would work for a dish like that, and you shouldn't be afraid to do a longer, afraid to do a longer cooked version.
+
+[10:41] Agree or disagree. I agree. Is there sprayed? No. Oh, so yours is not braised.
+
+[10:47] The traditional one is braised. The traditional one is braised. We we kind of revamped everything so that because you thought the traditional one was too hammered and you didn't want to serve people like uh also it looks it's a pile of red. So pile of red, it's like you know. If you're gonna have a pile of something, I guess green would be your first choice, red would be your second choice.
+
+[11:06] Brown is last. Brown is blue is last. I'll take blue over brown. All right, caller, you're on the air. Oh, hey, it's uh Judy from Malden again.
+
+[11:17] Hey, how you doing? Nastasia is has your cookies in the freezer. So I know. We've had our wires crossed a couple of times. I I think the cookies are where uh box is gonna die in her building.
+
+[11:31] No, no. There's another set of cookies. I've uh designed like uh 10 signatures for now, which is crazy. But uh, yeah. So what do you got going on?
+
+[11:51] What do you got going on? You got a question for us? Yeah, well, there's one specific question. You want me to tell you about like what I had come up with in terms of pricing, but there's uh cookie with Cheetos in it. So how do you get the Cheetos crispy?
+
+[12:11] Oh, well, I mean, you need you need to use a hardness technique. Cookie Cheetos are, first of all, you have to if you want a Cheeto to remain crispy, you you can't use the puffy ones. You have to use the the hard ones, the ones that are less expanded. I I am using the hard ones. Alright.
+
+[12:29] So that's your first step. The second step is that uh you're gonna need to choose a low water cookie. You know what I mean? A low a low moisture cookie. You're gonna have to go hard bake.
+
+[12:38] Like you're not gonna get a soft baked texture because it contains moisture, and also have your Cheeto remain uh hard unless you did some like real fancy footwork. And I have to think about it. Uh but you know, because there is a classic cookie that I didn't know existed. Maybe you guys know this existed. Maybe it's a California thing, or maybe it's a Massachusetts thing.
+
+[12:59] I don't know. King Arthur Flower has a recipe for it because at Chester County Fair where I was last week, uh they had uh a contest for it. Potato chip cookies. Potato chip cookies. Oh, I like potato chips and uh Toesy's compost cookie much better than I like pretzels.
+
+[13:17] I think pretzels are just kind of gross there. I don't know. My my favorite tozy cookie is corn. Yours, Nick? Compost.
+
+[13:25] Compost? My favorite corn. I don't like uh the coffee in it, like kind of there's coffee in it, right? I like the coffee. Yeah, I mean, I don't I'm not a fan of coffee flavored cookies.
+
+[13:34] I mean, they're good they're good. My favorite corn. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Yeah. No.
+
+[13:41] I mean, I can appreciate that it's done well or done poorly, but I don't like it. You know what I mean? We know Nastasia doesn't like it. Yeah, I mean, I will eat it. Uh unlike Nastasia, I will eat something and I can appreciate if it's well made.
+
+[13:53] What? Oh no, she has Dunkin' Donuts coffee is way too high rent for Nastasia. If it doesn't come from like a guy that made it the day before, like like like on literally being sold on the street. She hasn't actually enjoyed it. If the taste of the paper cup doesn't like what I told S in an email that you have to get like a Mr.
+
+[14:15] Coffee and a can of shock full of nuts just for her, really. Yeah chock full of nuts. That brings back some pleasant memories of getting no, they're not pleasant. What am I talking about? No.
+
+[14:25] Yeah, chocolate nuts does not bring back pleasant memories. I mean it's fine, whatever. My mom used to uh my mom uh was went to med school when I was a kid and the only source of uh nutrients for the med students without leaving the hospital at Columbia uh uptown was a chalk full of nuts. And so like I spent a good chunk of my childhood only eating crappy, overwrapped and sometimes rancid cream donut pastries from I'll never forget I didn't I used to hate cream donuts for like ten ten twelve years because I got one that was moldy and it knocked me off a cream donuts at at a chock full of nuts in the 70s in you know uptown in New York and it knocked me off a cream donuts for like well over a decade. I don't eat I still don't like them.
+
+[15:09] I'll eat them. Do you like a cream donut? I like moldy cream donuts only moldy donuts. Only moldy? Only mold?
+
+[15:15] I like Boston cream donuts. Of course 'cause you're from up there. So the uh I uh but about Dunkin' Donuts like people order extra extra even though regular tastes like almost ice cream anyway. Look I look you know I I gotta get to the the the pricing thing in a sec 'cause I got a bunch of stuff I I gotta get to. But here but here but but before I do that let me just say this.
+
+[15:37] Dunkin' Donuts and I mean there's this argument on the internet a while ago and it keeps coming back up. Dunkin' donut has ruined the world in terms of the way they spell donut. It's just ruined. It's just ruined. And they've also ruined the you know that they've trademarked, they can trademark Boston cream because they spell it C-R-E-M-E.
+
+[15:55] C R E M E. What the heck is C-R-E-M-E? Boston cream. It's a Boston cream do nut. It's a they sell do nuts.
+
+[16:07] They do not sell donuts. And I happen to like Dunkin' Donuts, by the way. The flavor of Dunkin' Donuts, I happen to enjoy them because I grew up eating them. I'm just very mad at what they've done to our language. Yeah.
+
+[16:18] Oh, okay. One more thing. Uh there's a cookie with sumac in it. Oh, that's good. I like sumac.
+
+[16:25] There are uh uh quote unquote Slim Jim's and the cookie and Red and Hot. Well, whenever I think of Slim Jims, I have to I have to if I was wearing a hat, I would take it off from my man Macho Man Randy Savage, the famous one out. Yeah, we've got to pull it, snap it, just snap it too. There's not really a solution, or you're gonna think about it. Yeah, I'll think I'll think I'll think about it.
+
+[16:48] But remember, uh I would look I would look at the classic potato chip cookie recipe and see what they're doing. But I looked at the classic potato chip cookies that were the winners in this contest they had at the Chester County Fair, which by the way, we should all enter. Everyone at cooking issues who listens should go and we should just crush all the locals. Not that they can't cook, but we should just imagine if imagine if all these like cooking nerds descended on Chester, the Chester Fair every year, and was just like boom! And just like dropped like a huge like splat of stuff on everyone's like baked good.
+
+[17:22] It would be crazy. It would be awesome. It'd be intense. You know what I mean? Also, here's something upsets me about the Chester County Fair.
+
+[17:29] Chester County Fair's vegetable, uh, the the vegetable judging, it's all shape. It's all shape. Shape. So like flavor. No flavor, no flavor, and not even like a size.
+
+[17:41] So like we're growing like a huge pumpkin. Huge. It's already, it already weighs more than the kids. It's huge. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:44] Like both of the kids put together. But it's like, it's like shape. I mean, that's like that's what's that's what's so wrong with American fruit and veg today is the shape based. Because who cares? Shape and color, who cares?
+
+[18:00] That's not, I mean, color sometimes is an indicator of quality. But rarely, you know what I mean? It's like, I mean, you know, more red. Whatever. Is this is this social commentary on body image in the media?
+
+[18:11] It could be if you want it to be, or it could just be we need to change the way that people judge fruit and veg in in county fairs. And people. Yeah, sure. You could change it. I mean, like, I don't really judge people, I just judge fruit and veg.
+
+[18:25] Anyway, so what so uh so you're gonna send more cookies and we'll talk about the pricing when they come when they get here? Oh, I think she dropped the line. Alright, cool. All right. I like how like Nick tries to make it into a deep inner inner meaning kind of a thing.
+
+[18:37] I know you're not a deep inner meaning sort of person, though. No, no, no, as we used to call it dim. No, none of that. Uh all right, so since we're gonna run out of time, remind me at the oh, next week we're gonna be I'm gonna be at Harvard. Uh I don't know if Nastasia's coming up or not.
+
+[18:50] Uh, but I'm doing the talk with uh Harold McGee, so I won't be able to uh be here. I'm giving a public lecture with Harold McGee on Monday. I don't know, you know, I don't know how you get into it or whatever, up in uh at Harvard. And the subject that I will be discussing is how um kind of modern ideas of cooking and kind of uh observational and analytic cooking has led to a change in kitchen equipment design, both from my own perspective, like Sears all, Centrifuge, cubes, stuff like that, and uh other people's perspective, like the baking steel, uh, and maybe what the future of that means as opposed to the past in kitchen designs. That's one of the things I'm gonna or implement design.
+
+[19:27] That's one of the things that I don't know what Harold's gonna be talking about. He may or may not talk about uh impossible foods and like food engineering from that side, which is uh kind of a whole new category of things that's going on. But anyway, that's what we might talk about. Um so what else? Do you know, Nick?
+
+[19:43] You ever grow tomatoes? Nope. My tomatoes are growing so beautifully this year, and I've not eaten one because some evil freaking, either climbing or small mammal has eaten. I see the teeth marks in the tomatoes. I have not had one freaking tomato.
+
+[20:00] My tomato plants are like six and a half feet tall, all up on like things, like all beautiful, like healthy as all get out, not one. Thank goodness, whatever this thing is, doesn't like cucumbers or pumpkins, or I'd have nothing. Ripity do that, zip. If you plant perilla leaves around, they'll stay away. Really?
+
+[20:20] But too, it's weird, like because tomatoes are also a stinky leaf. You'd think that they would so you're a planter, you plant things? No, my dad used to. Yeah. Can I can I just put like a like a like a some sort of evil, like like fence of death?
+
+[20:35] Can I just obliterate everything that lives that walks near the tomatoes? Is there a some sort of like something that does that? I don't know. I mean, I bear this thing ill will. Ill will.
+
+[20:47] You gotta make yourself a Tesla coil to protect your tomatoes. If I look, you know remember Nathan Vir Mirval was working on that like like Star Wars defense system for mosquitoes, he was gonna wipe out malaria. I need that to pre protect my tomato plants. I don't think that ever happened. Anyway, alright.
+
+[21:02] Uh okay. By the way, my son Dax, lazy. Lazy, lazy. I was cooking for all these people this this weekend, cooking so much. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:14] Last week I was on vacation, so like family was coming while I was cooking, cooking. I'm like, Dax, I need to I need to cook, I need to cook. Can you roast the coffee? All he has to do is sit there and turn a crank for like 10 minutes. Roast coffee.
+
+[21:30] The entire 10 minutes complaining about how much work it was. And why can't I go buy an automatic coffee roasting machine? Lazy. I love him. Lazy.
+
+[21:42] Anyway. He did help me build a hovercraft. We built a hovercraft together. I saw that video. That was fun.
+
+[21:46] Hovercraft, fun. Next step, propulsion. Anyway, leaf blower. I bought a really good leaf blower. Anyway, this has nothing to do with cooking.
+
+[21:52] Let's get into cooking. Shy wrote in a long time ago about plums. So here's the question. I've recently made a nice plum tart, but it had a somewhat bitter tart taste to it. It's a flavor I've noticed before to an extent in uncooked nectarines and peaches.
+
+[22:16] Anytime say, see, brown is bad in a big dish that you serve out, but like anything that's crisp and brown, people like. You know what I mean? Crisp and brown, good. Golden brown. Golden brown.
+
+[22:27] Golden brown. Right? It's inherently good. Yes. Anyway.
+
+[22:32] Can you suggest a reason for this flavor to develop during baking and hopefully a method to prevent it? Thanks, Shy. Yes, uh, well, at first I thought I think you have multiple problems. First of all, what you're noticing is not just you. A quick internet search shows that this is a problem a lot of people have had with plum tarts, and I think also sometimes with uh apricots and cook plums in general.
+
+[22:53] So the short answer is uh no one's written the answer, and like what people have said is pretty much like the stuff the answers I have seen are pretty much wrong. I did do some uh research in the um, and here are the three articles that I I read. The physical pretreatment of plums, prunus domestica, part two, the effect on quality characteristics of different prune cultival cultivars by Luciano Cinquanta. And I read Bitterness and Astringency of Flavin 3 all monomers, dimers, and trimers by Hannah Peleg in 1999, uh, along along with uh a couple of other things. And here's what I think is going on.
+
+[23:30] Very interesting, uh, very interesting. There are, so there's a lot of like polyphenols and like tans and stuff in in plums, both in the skins where you taste them more in terms of astringency and in the plum fruit itself. Now, one thing I was thinking is that you ever notice, you guys have noticed this. When you eat a plum, if you chew on the skin for a long time, you get a lot more of that astringency versus if you just and like suck it down, and also like a lot of the acidity is in the plum skin area in a plum. And so, like, I've noticed a lot when I'm doing um plum juices um or infusions with plums that if you let them sit a long time on the skin the same way that you do with a grape, you're pulling a lot more of the astringency out, uh, and a lot more of the sourness.
+
+[24:13] So, like a like a short uh, you know, uh a quick juicing where you don't let the plums so typically when I want to extract a lot of those flavors before I do any juicing or clarification, I'll just smash the pumps, plums in the skins, maybe even and then the depending on how much you want, you can blend it. If you blend it, it really does get very astringent and bitter once you then spin it out or clarify it or whatever else you're gonna do with it, right? So, at first I thought that was the only thing that was going on, but then when I did some research, it turns out that this is a known issue. Uh uh when you dry plums, um the the amount of the uh catachins in them, which is the same kind of polyphenols that you get in teas, they provide a lot of the like kind of those bitter astringent notes in teas. They're like somewhat bitter, somewhat astringent, but they're um polymerized to a certain extent.
+
+[25:01] This is what I've gathered. I could be totally wrong, but chemists will write in. They're polymerized to a certain extent in a native plum, but uh the more those polymers are built up, the more they taste astringent, right? The more they're broken down into smaller molecules, the less astringent they are, the more bitter they are. So perhaps, and this is uh is shown like a the data in these articles show that during the drying of of plums from plums to prunes, prunes are so delicious that they actually changed the name, you know what I mean, of the thing from plum to prune.
+
+[25:33] You know, dried apples, which I love, are still just dried apples. Right. People like a raisin, right? They deserve their own name. I personally think dried apricots deserve their own name.
+
+[25:43] I personally think that the best dried apricot, to me, I would rather eat it than a fry a fresh apricot. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. I think it deserves its own name.
+
+[25:52] I don't know. Nick, you'll come up with it. Mienus. Uh I don't think people would buy a lot of the a lot of those. I like how you're pronouncing it with the alternate pronunciation though.
+
+[26:00] Anyway, so my point being uh that as these things dry, the uh level of their um the polyphenols in them by dry weight uh as composed of of unpolymerized catechin goes up by a good chunk. So you could have something that doesn't appear bitter that then appears more bitter. Now, as to what's going on with uh tartness, getting more tart, I don't know. But uh the interesting thing is here that there is chemistry going on here that is beyond my kind of knowledge, but someone else can find out. Now, as to how you fix it, I don't know.
+
+[26:34] I would try to maybe do a test where you cook down some that you've uh blanched and peeled. Can you blanch and peel a plum? You probably could. I mean, I would guess. I would guess you could.
+
+[26:45] I'm just saying that though, because I've never tried it. Never tried either. I've never peeled a plum. I mean, on purpose. I mean, I've sat there with my teeth and peeled the skin areas off.
+
+[26:52] But I'm I tell you what, I'm not, I'll tell you what I'm not doing. I'm not sitting there with a knife and trying to cut the skin off of off of a ripe plum. That's what's not going to happen. No. Would you try to do that, Nick?
+
+[27:03] No. Did I ever tell a story on here where we tried to make you peel fennel seeds? I yo, you never made me do it. Yes. Remember, I pressure cooked the fennel seeds, and they have those little white insides in them.
+
+[27:15] And I tried to convince you as a joke to peel a quart container of fennel seeds down to the little white things. That's some other stupid person that's not me. I think that was you, man. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. I don't know.
+
+[27:25] One of the other stupid interns. Did we have another Nick Wong? Yes. Anyway, so like I would try taking the skin off. And then the other thing I would try is maybe doing um like uh some sort of like either I mean this sounds kind of gross, but like an egg white soak or like a milk soak to see whether you can complex more do a more of a hard complexing with the casein of some of these things to suck them out of the plum before you uh cook it.
+
+[27:51] Uh alternatively, you could use something else that con like some other charged uh protinaceous thing that might complex with um the precursors to this bitterness and knock them out. That's my and another thing you can do is you could try to actually dip the stuff in milk and see whether that uh reduces the bitterness after the fact, in which you know, as a test to see what what's happening. Although my guess is that the more condensed, the more polymerized the uh these things are, the better they will complex with milk. But again, you're beyond my actual level of knowledge and you're into my realm of extreme speculation. Anyway, which is where I live most of my life.
+
+[28:32] By the way, speaking of bitterness, do you know that you know uh bow eats, you know, bowl eats, the the mushrooms like you know, like porcinis, bolites, they're the ones that have the poor structure instead of the gills. Good news about bowl eats is that well, they taste good and that they um uh that they're not poisonous. Like there's very few bow, there's no bol eats that are gonna kill you. You know what I mean? It's like you if you go for gild mushrooms and you get the wrong gild mushroom, like you're toast.
+
+[28:58] You know what I mean? Like, unless you get a liver transplant, you're hosed. You know what I mean? Uh you know, like destroying angel, you know, amenitas, things like this. Bolets, like some of them are like toxic-ish, but like they're not gonna kill you.
+
+[29:09] Anyway, but there's there's one that looks fairly similar to an actual porcina. It's called a bitter bolit. Bitter bolit. Bitter bully. You are a bitter bowl eat, Nick.
+
+[29:18] Nick was gonna say I was a bitter bullet. Turns out I have these up in Connecticut. But here's the interesting thing that I'm gonna maybe cook some up and bring it. The whatever is bitter in a bitter bowl is only bitter to people who have the genetic ability to taste that particular bitter compound. And like prop, you know, the bitter tasting uh strips that people test to see if you're a super taster, not everyone can taste it.
+
+[29:40] So if you don't have the genes to taste it, apparently it's delicious mushroom, as delicious as a porcini. But then if you have that gene, it's as disgusting as chewing on prop strips. Like hardcore bitter. So I'm gonna try to find some and then bring them back and we'll have a bitter bowl eat cook off, and then we'll sit there and like like I like hopefully I can't taste it just so that I can serve it to other people. So I can sit there and be pounding it, and then someone else eats it, it's like ah ah, right?
+
+[30:05] What do you think? Are you a super taster? You you guys are have either of you ever done prop? I'm pretty sure I'm not a super taster. I think I did it once.
+
+[30:13] I'm not. I'm definitely not. And I don't feel and I don't feel bad about it, to quote Macy Gray. Hey, David, you ever done that prop strip? No.
+
+[30:19] You know what I'm talking about, though? Never heard of it. So what the classic thing you do, so here's the thing. If you want to pretend to be a super taster, and really I don't see why you would, because a lot of like it, like it's a really crappy, like because it makes it seem like it's an awesome thing to be, super taster. I mean, it may or may not be, but it's like whatever.
+
+[30:34] It's it might just ruin your life. I don't know. Well, apparently, uh, you know, super tasters are the ones that go for the white zen. Uh just saying, uh just saying, make what that you want, but you know, there there you have it. Ooh, the white fin.
+
+[30:48] Hater of the white zen. By the way, people out there, and maybe get some in the chat room. Why has no one made a delicious well-crafted white zen? I mean, I'm sure they have. Let me take that back.
+
+[30:58] Why have I never tasted a delicious well-crafted white zen? Because we all grew up like well grew up, you know, we all grew up in drinking life, th especially like, you know, my at my age, like a lot of people were pounding that sweet white rock gut white zen. You know what I mean? And so, like, it took a long time for even real good Zinfandel to kind of overcome that hump of like the white zen, the like the kind of uh, you know, bad connotations of the white zen. But then why hasn't there been more of like a white zen comeback, like good white zen?
+
+[31:29] Like what can it not be made? I'm sure someone makes a delicious one. I just haven't had it. I had it, you know, whatever. I went, whatever.
+
+[31:36] It's not the it's neither here nor there. Hey you want to take another caller? Sure, call her, you're on the air. Hello? Hello?
+
+[31:43] Hey. Hey. Um I'm a baker and I make a carrot pumpkin bread every year. Um had a question about that. Sure.
+
+[31:54] How do you cure the pumpkin? All right. So it's just uh roasted, you know, roasted squash, whatever, whatever we can find, kabucha, blue hubbard. Um, and then most of the hydration for the bread, it's a rye bread. Most of the hydration comes from carrot juice.
+
+[32:10] Um, so I basically I the bread's delicious. I just wanted to reduce some of the labor of it, especially since I don't have an outlet for the runoff from the juicing process. And uh you mean like the carrot pulp? It looks like carrots are mostly uh are are pretty high pectin. So I was wondering if anyone had experienced just kind of breaking down carrots into a mush with pectin enzyme pectinase enzymes.
+
+[32:37] Uh maybe for you you've done something like that for a cocktail or uh um wanted to know how that would work out. I have, but it's been many, many years. I mean, carrots one of those things that like you know auto auto-clarifies to a very high extent as opposed to like a lot of other juices on separation, like so it's one of those things that I haven't focused a lot on in like trying to clarify it. And it's been I used to do uh like back in the day, we run for that one, Nick. We did apples and carrots, we did a bunch of cocktails like that, um gin, apple, carrot, but it's been a long, long time.
+
+[33:13] Uh look, the original uh purpose of a lot of these um pectinase things, there was one that I used to use on apples called Pectanex Smash XXL, which was what we started using before we were using SPL back in the day. And its stated goal is to increase the yield of juice out of um increase the yield of juice out of uh apples and I'm sure it would also work on um carrots now I would use SPL because my guess is that there's probably beyond pectin that there's a good bit of like uh hemicellulose and stuff in a carrot so I would um carrots are like one of the reasons carrots are hard is because aren't they high in calcium anyway uh like uh doesn't that reinforce the pectin structure it's I haven't researched carrot in a million years but I remember remember how the modern cuisine guys used to say that uh the internal like the very taproot inside structure of the carrot is higher in calcium that like lighter core and that they did uh differential tasting where they popped the core out and did a like a triangle test of like the outside of the carrot versus the inside and I think they were saying that they thought it was a higher calcium level that was increasing to a bitterness perception in the inside of the taproot but I don't know if that's actually what was going on or if it's just the majority of the sugar storage is in the outside. I don't know how far they went into it. Anyway been many years. But so my guess is that yes uh pre-treatment with pectinx uh ultra SPL will increase uh your yield uh there's gotta be some good use for that dry nasty pulp there's gotta be like some some sort of some sort of crappy health cookie some what some sort of crappy health cookie like is there's got to be some use that's like you know how like when you make tofu you have all the OKRA left over like the the things and you're like, what am I gonna do with this?
+
+[35:02] And so you just add a little bit to like every muffin and pancake you make for the next like you know month to try to get rid of it until it starts going stale and stanky in your in your in your fridge. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah is carrot pulp the same way? Can you just kind of toss dry worthless carrot pulp into as roughage for people who want like a cookie that helps them like uh go go go you know to the bathroom or no?
+
+[35:28] Yeah I mean we f we found that the the runoff from the juicing just isn't really flavorful to use for too much. Um yeah no it's just a fiber it's just fiber. Yeah yeah I mean what what I so I I guess what I was wondering is is uh if so say I'm using about I think uh if I remember right it's about like fifty percent carrot juice, fifty percent water in the in the in the uh the the formula if I were to s to just take carrots and submerge them one to one by weight in water plus pectin X and kind of let it sit and then would would that uh no break down at all or no no no no no no no no no no no no what you would have to do is you'd have to juice it, take the pulp, treat the pulp with pectanex, and then try to do another juice extraction on that. Okay. Pegton X will not penetrate at all.
+
+[36:23] In fact when we used to use the Pectanex Ultra SPL to do things like uh you know one of the old tricks is uh to get all of the white off of uh like doing supremes of uh like pomelos and something things are very hard to do supremes of and uh you know we would peel it first because it wouldn't penetrate through the peel then we would uh break the it into like like halves and quarters then soak it, then break it apart after it had started dissolving, and then soak it again to get all the stuff off. The stuff just will not penetrate uh it won't. Like even under vacuum conditions you uh in a carrot specifically, vacuum infusions into carrots tend not to go that deep unless you're doing super multiple pulses. And so I highly doubt that you're going to get that much of an increase in yield, unless you could, if you if you if you put all of the carrots, if you didn't want to juice it twice, if you put all the carrots through like uh like um a RoboCoup with a disc in it and like chip them into carrot chips and then soak them in pectanex and then pull them out and throw them through them through your champion or whatever you're using, uh that might increase your yield. But I would run some tests to make sure that it's worth the time uh and effort.
+
+[37:36] Otherwise, I would just try to do a rejuice of the stuff and see whether the stuff that comes out uh later is any good. Hey, here's a question. It's just off the top of my head. You have any of you guys ever make rice bran pickles? You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[37:48] Yeah, no, you're talking about it. Rice bran pickles. I wonder, because when you make rice bran pickles, you know, you have to like incubate the rice bran and all this, and it has to have a it has a certain moisture content, you're burying your vegetables and you have to replenish it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? I wonder whether you could cut a rice bran mixture with like really dry pressed carrot stuff. I wonder whether you could like add it, whether it would be bad, or would it add like a good thing to like an already going rice bran pickle?
+
+[38:12] What do you think? I don't know. But it's just fiber though. That's right. Well, what's rice brand?
+
+[38:18] Fiber plus some fat and some other stuff. What's carrot, what's carrot waste? A little bit of sugar, not no fat, fiber. But I'm not saying like go a hundred percent, I'm saying like go partial. Do you think it would rot, or do you think it's a low enough moisture content that it'd be okay?
+
+[38:33] I don't know. I don't know. I mean, with all with all the sugar, it might get yeasty though. That's that's that'd be the one concern. Right, but that's what I'm when you taste, like when you do a good job, like if you like double double juice or whatever, the pulp that comes out of a champion with the carrot stuff, it's pretty it's fairly neutralized compared to a real carrot.
+
+[38:52] You know what I mean? Like I wonder how much actual sugar is left in there. I get what you're saying. Like you wouldn't want a lot of yeast, you wouldn't want yeast stuff going. But it'd be interesting.
+
+[38:59] Anyway, I don't know. Someone's sure has tried it. I don't know. Well, I'll I'll I'll try that out and I'll let you guys know. Yeah, cool.
+
+[39:05] Let us know what happens. Let us know whether you increase your yield. All right, thanks very much. Cool, thank you. Um Matt, are you an olive you guys olive fans?
+
+[39:15] You like olives? You have any you have thoughts on olives? No? No thoughts on olives? You guys are you guys you guys are worse than Nastasia.
+
+[39:24] Matt Hall wrote in the That's just hurtful. Yeah. I'm interested in getting your opinion on the selection of olives for cocktails. I have been using um uh I can't pronounce words that I read. Castle Vitrano olives for dirty martinis, two parts uh dry gin, one part uh dry vermouth, uh, and a bar spoon of brine.
+
+[39:42] It seems good, but am I missing a better option? What about other cocktails? Thanks, Matt Hall. So we use uh we use um frankly, we use olives that fit into the bottles because what we do is we throw, we push olives into our martini bottles. What are they?
+
+[39:56] What do we use? Like peachelines or something like that? I don't know. No, the little ones, little green guys. Yeah.
+
+[40:02] Yeah, I don't know. Um so that's what we use. But I, you know, I would just do it based on uh taste. Tony Cunigliaro in um in 69 Colebrook Row and Zetter Townhouse, et cetera, et cetera, in um London, he uses exclusively Nochelara olives. And he um, of course, he's Sicilian, but then he, you know, what he does is the the the least, the least, I should say, the the lowest yield idea on earth.
+
+[40:30] He takes Nochulara olives, drains the brine from them, puts them in a centrifuge, spins them, and lets the the increased weight of the centrifuge on whole olives expel some brine, and then that's what he uses for his dirty martinis. And then the rest he sends back to the kitchen to make tapa knot. I was like, Tony, how much top and not do you sell? Like, who are you, who are you unloading all this top and not on that you can like, you know. I'm talking like, you know, he'll get, you know, those the big the big 10 cans of Nochularas, and he'll get out of that like, I don't know, like a cup, like a less than a pint of like of uh uh of brine.
+
+[41:13] And that's think of how much top and not a number 10 can has in it worth of olives. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, so uh I would just choose olives that you like. I would think most, I mean, what do most people do? I've done calamata, but it's very specific and it's colored, so it's kind of like people generally want green olives, right?
+
+[41:30] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I would just say experiment. If you have access to a centrifuge, you can make really, really, really good olive brine just by blending it and spinning it, and you get really, really good paste, really, really good brine, and a little bit of uh oil that olive connoisseurs hate because it's fusty.
+
+[41:47] It has that it has that oxidized kind of cured taste to it, which olive uh people hate. Uh okay. Uh Richard wrote in about seasoning sticks. There's a Kickstarter, it's called seasoning sticks. And he said, Well, watching the video, I got a few laughs and uh and a couple of fave face palms over there.
+
+[42:05] Science behind the product. Probably the worst thing it uh worst thing being that they feel that all the water has gone from the inside of the meat at 110 degrees. There's some notice, there's some science problems. There's some science problems. What what this is, Nick, Esther, you tell me is that these people make sticks there uh out of some sort of seasoning, and then they shove these sticks into like a meat product, and then they cook it to try and season it from the inside out.
+
+[42:31] Now, I'm sure that Richard is expecting uh that I'm going to go completely like ape on this. And I would if I had more time. You know what I mean? But I'm gonna say something here, and this goes back to like Greg Greg Blonder. I'm supposed to be talking about Greg Blonder and vacuum vacuum pressure marination, but I haven't had time to run a lot of the experiments yet.
+
+[42:51] Whatever, we'll get to it next week. Or in fact, I would love to meet him uh at the Harvard uh next week. He believes that vacuum marination and pressure marination don't work, but I think that he is not necessarily uh correct based on the experiments he's run. Like, for instance, have you guys noticed, do you guys you guys vacuum bag for with with flavor, right? Right.
+
+[43:11] So and again, remember, and I'll get back to the seasoning sticks. But like remember, uh in general, like it's clear that under vacuum salt penetration is higher, right? And nitrate penetrate penetration is higher. I know this because you can run the test. You can fuse a uh pork belly with uh with pink salt and then not do it.
+
+[43:31] I mean, uh not vacuum it and vacuum it. He's doing it under a lower um under a less high vacuum than we would be doing it. But and then when you cook it the next day, the pink is deeper in the pork belly that you did under vacuum. He's also not getting a lot of the effects. He's doing whole muscle meat, so he's not getting effective like penetration along bone lines and crevices in in muscles.
+
+[43:52] Uh also he's not doing it to the point where you know how when you do a bad vacuum job and like you can see the meat inflate like a marshmallow, like it puffs up. Clearly, you're f separating the fibers, and by doing that, you're allowing the meat to penetrate. But the c I think that's bad practice. Although it might not actually be bad practice on meat that you are trying to quote untenderize. So we since we sit there and we beat chickens and beef with mallets to tenderize them, and yet I'm worried about inflating them with a vacuum, right?
+
+[44:19] So who's the idiot? It's me. But you know, obviously fish is destroyed by that technique. So like, you know, you don't want to do it with fish. But going back to my point, what do you guys think, you two here in the studio with me, think, and Dave, if you if you do this as well, uh, is the is the thing that you cook most often that absorbs marinade the fastest in a vacuum.
+
+[44:40] I'll give you five seconds to think. Five, four, three, two, one. Shrimp! Shrimp. And crustaceans, because they have open circulatory systems.
+
+[44:52] So I think you know, you're dealing with something like uh uh a cre me, everybody knows that when you vacuum bag shrimp, you don't do it to cook it because that's gross, right? You do it because shrimp absorbs flavor like a mofo in a bag, as opposed to something like a chicken, right? Haven't you noticed that? Like shrimp picks up stuff in a bag, and I think it's because it's just a big straw. It's a big open circulatory system.
+
+[45:16] And so it goes right through. Yeah, and that's my theory. I want to run some tests though with larger molecules. So he uses green food coloring as a stand-in for larger molecules because most of the flavor molecules that we have are very large compared to something like salt. And so, like the mistake people make in marinades is they think that uh these larger molecules are actually gonna make their way into the meat, and they're simply not under most uh things, unless you beat them with mallets, whether it being marinated, in which case it will.
+
+[45:42] But anyway, we'll get into that later. As for the sticks, uh so marinades tend not to work, but anyone that's have you ever roasted a chicken? I know you have at freaking cafe balut. I know you've roasted a chicken in your life, right? Nick, you roasted a chicken.
+
+[45:55] If you stuff crap into a chicken's cavity, is there anyone on earth who doesn't think that the flavors from the herbs and the citrus and the onions and the alliums that you shove into the cavity of a chicken when you roast it don't permeate the freaking meat? Because they're stupid, they have no smell or taste. You know what I mean? It's like it's obvious that those flavors during cooking permeate, right? Yeah.
+
+[46:17] And so like that's affect that's uh uh temperature effect happens while while it's cooking. And so if that happens by shoving a chicken, by shoving like you know, uh chopped up uh lemon, uh coriander, parsley, uh, onions, and rosemary into a chicken cavity, pepper, salt, uh, you know what I mean? Like I mean, maybe these sticks, as horrifying as they are to have what horrifies me about the idea of a stick of spice through uh uh something is that you have this like hyper-concentrated like spice hit right where the stick was. Right. So, you know, we always used to call that spice burn, right?
+
+[46:57] So, like you'd have like someone, some idiot was like spicing a bag, let's say for low temperature cooking, and they just throw the freaking spice into the bag and then they walk away, and then you get that super concentration. A lot of spices go hard bitter when they're cooked for a long time in high concentrations of one thing, and so you get spice burns, or some idiot would throw uh like rosemary right against uh like like a fragile thing in a bag, hard vac it down without any liquids, and then you get that like imprint, that like bitter over rosemary imprint of green all over the meat, right where it hit. First of all, those jerks would make an actual literal cooked imprint of a rosemary stick into the food, which is enough that you should like you should go to a corner of the room and cry. But uh beyond that, uh it creates spice burn. So that would be my only thing, right?
+
+[47:46] What do you think? Is is a rosemary stick the original seasoning stick? Rosemary stick is the original seasoning stick. Because you know, you shove that thing into, you know, shove that. That's what Ched Chesray was born on a rosemary skewer, I think.
+
+[48:02] I look, uh I'm not sure. You're turning it into something gross, but I don't I'm not sure exactly how that. So listen, we're running out of time here. Next week we'll get or two weeks from now, we'll get uh to Mark Bledsoe's question uh from uh we have a we have a month. He has an event he has an event a month away, but I'll get into it uh next week, hopefully, with time for you to work on it.
+
+[48:23] Uh Devin Krebs had a question about how'd you get into this whole line of business, which is a kind of a longer discussion. Uh we'll get to it. We'll eat some cookies, uh, and uh that's it. Oh, I will say this one thing on the way out. You know in New York City and Washington and Philadelphia, like all the buildings are this is not a cooking thing.
+
+[48:42] They're like brownstone. You familiar with brownstones? Yeah. So all that brownstone came from a quarry in Connecticut called Brownstone, and uh they it flooded in 1936. It's now a water park, dude.
+
+[48:54] It's sick. It's sick, man. You gotta go, gotta go to Brownstone Water Park. And last thing, this is cooking related. Uh so everybody who listens to me knows that I'm very pro-Tandoor, right?
+
+[49:06] You know this? You know anybody anti-Tandoor? Well, no, but I'm very pro. Trump. Trump.
+
+[49:12] Trump hates tandoors, yes. But I'm very, very pro-tandoor. But what it's done, and this is it's totally changed my entire outlook on cook cooking in general. Because yeah, because what if you cook in a Tandor, other than bread, which is one and done, right, on the side pops off. Everything in a tandoor is uh most everything is is multi-cook, right?
+
+[49:35] In, out, in out, in out. And I've said before, like David Kinch bat uh David Kinch, you know, from Monresa, when he decided that he wasn't gonna do low temperature anymore because it wasn't enough it wasn't enough work for him to do just low temperature work. So he would take his like old school, I think he's I forget whether he's Bonet or Moltaney, one of those things, right? He would he would just take his meats in and out of the old traditional oven to try to get that high average, a high instantaneous heat, low average heat, which is why rotisserie is so good. And tando is the same way, super high instantaneous, in out, in out, in out, oil based in between so that it it starts cooking as soon as it gets into the fire, right?
+
+[50:11] And so you get these like that's how you get the really nice crust, and then really but and so but I've just been cooking everything that way. So like on my grills now, and like you know, meathead when he was here would hate this, but like everything I do is like is done tandoor style now because I don't have to think ahead. You know what I mean? It's just like make it thin enough so that it's gonna work, and then just off on off on off on off on. So I do I I I've been doing the vertical grilling, but now I've been doing it now horizontal grilling.
+
+[50:36] I told you I bought one of those big cowboy grills at the Home Depot for 150 dollars that has you know basically the grilling area of a of a dining room table, and like I have so much wood that like I don't have to like I don't have to worry about like uh sustainability. It's like I live in the eighteen hundreds and like I'm just destroying the earth, you know, one person at a time. You know, it's like but again, like the wood would otherwise go to waste, it would rot into the ground. No one's coming to buy it or use it or build houses out of it. So I'd build a I do one uh I do one chimney of charcoal and then I layered like logs over it.
+
+[51:08] Literally if you go back and you read camp cookbooks from uh like the late 1800s, early 1900s, there was a huge woodcraft movement that went along, not woodcraft meaning like woodwork, woodcraft meaning like how to survive in the woods uh movement that happened in the US as part of the kind of a return to nature naturalism movement, right? It happened right around the time when all of our forests were already kind of destroyed, so people were trying to like hook it up. But the culture at the time was still, you know, you get a big hunting party, you go out into the woods, you chop down a bunch of full-size freaking trees, and you build a camp, uh c you know, including like you know, like uh like big uh fireplaces, and they were burning huge amounts of wood. And so like I can kind of act that way now, at least for a little while. So I'm building these giant wood fires, and man, having a giant, like dining room-sized, like super hot flame that you can just off on, off on, I can crank, and I really love cooking that way.
+
+[52:01] I just love it. And I did shrimp on it the other day and chicken, because like shrimp, shrimp's a master of the off on, off on. Shrimp is like boom boom boom boom, done. You know what I mean? Off on, off on, off on.
+
+[52:11] Do you hate people that cook their shrimp at too low a heat and then the whole thing is ruined and the outside still doesn't have any nice crust on it? Yeah. I hate that. I hate. One last question, because I know we need to leave.
+
+[52:21] Are you guys bigger fans of getting a shrimp and cooking it nicely so that you can eat the shell and get all the flavor? Or do you like people to cook it with the shell on and then the idiots peel off the shell and lose all the flavor? Or do you like to shell the sucker and then put the flavor on it, but then also not shield the meat as much from the high heat? I like the worst option on that. Which is you cook it with the shell on and the idiots peel it.
+
+[52:48] Yeah. I would rather just eat the shell. I like eating the shell. I'm very pro-eating the shell. I'm I'm more I'm just lazy.
+
+[52:54] Well, do you does that mean you also like the double stir fry technique? The second one is the one that makes the shell crispy enough to eat. Like like salt and pepper shrimp, where you hit it once, then you pull it, and then you hit it again, and then yeah. And that actually, to be honest, and this they're gonna have to kick me off here. But the the that's the one advantage to kind of the low quality, really thin-shelled, like farm-raised, like BS shrimp that we get, is that if you cook it like that, those shells are super super easy just to eat.
+
+[53:21] You know what I mean? And I don't mind it. I don't mind it. I don't mind it. Americans need to get over it, eat the shell.
+
+[53:27] Anyway. Just eat the shell. Yeah, uh, is that true? There's ca- is there calcium in it? It's chitin.
+
+[53:33] I know it's chitinous, it's so it's good for like whatever chitin's good for. Maybe there's calcium in it. Uh I'm sure there is. Because I know lobster shells make that terrible flavor. If you cook, you know, you ever you ever make a lobster uh broth?
+
+[53:46] You ever accidentally cook the shell too long? Nasty. Nasty. Lobster shell only want to be in the broth for a certain amount of time. And if you overcook it, it gets that shell taste.
+
+[53:56] And I think that shell taste is calcium, but I don't know because I never researched it. All I know is is that if I see someone boiling their lobster shell and then I come back in in like an hour and they're still boiling that lobster shell, I'm like, oh my god, why? You know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about. Anyway, cooking issues.
+
+[54:24] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization.
+
+[54:49] To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. This is Mike Edison, host of Art Senses of Seizures. You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, please visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1 o'clock or so on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing today, Stas? I'm good.
+
+[0:49] How are you? Fine. Got Dave in the booth. Also fine. Good.
+
+[0:53] Uh calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. It's been a while since we've uh all been in the uh studio together, right? Yeah. Um that's nice.
+
+[1:06] Last week I was at uh the Harvard giving the talk, and then uh the week before you were at the uh the sweet sweet Naples. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right.
+
+[1:15] So let's uh get right into it. We have a bunch of uh stuff to uh catch up with today. Oh, you done any interesting cooking? No. You're like rippity freaking doo-day, nothing.
+
+[1:25] Nothing interesting. Nothing. Yeah. See, I did I cook anything for the Harvard Lecture? No, not really, right?
+
+[1:30] I don't know. Did I even serve anything at the Harvard Lecture? You know what I did do at the Harvard Lecture? I showed off the uh prototype of the centrifuge. Talked about the uh relative uh difficulties of uh making a product.
+
+[1:42] Anyway, all right, let's get to uh today's questions because we have a lot. Look, Nastasi is Nasta Nastasia, by the way, is getting ready. Uh Judy from Malden sent us some cookies to taste today, so she's opening them now and and reading the description so that we can have a comparative tasting later. So, Dave, what's that? What's that uh signify there?
+
+[2:05] Oh, is you opening the box? I think I like that. IED in there or something. First of all, I don't think we actually uh talked about this. Uh Dave, did I talk about salt last week at all?
+
+[2:14] You weren't here last week. Week before that? When Nastasia I I can't remember that. All right, here's yeah, here's the thing. I like this is an interesting fact that uh came to my head.
+
+[2:24] Uh that when I was kids and when you know people my age were kids, everybody in their house cooked with um the cylindrical uh boxes of iodized salt. Like we're all familiar with that cylindrical box of iodized salt, right? So as soon as I started, you know, cooking, I've always a hundred percent exclusively used kosher salt, diamond kosher salt, in fact. Uh and so like the in my house, and by the way, my kids, you know, rarely do they eat out at restaurants. It's mainly stuff that we cook at home.
+
+[3:00] Uh, and a hundred percent of it is made with kosher salt. Kosher salt contains no iodine. There's no iodine. So I'm wondering if, you know, I mean, my kids luckily they eat uh enough seafood, you know, that not as much as the triple six mafia with the shrimp and the iodine poisoning. That's like my favorite, my favorite uh like rhyme ever of theirs, it and I I eat so many shrimp I get iodine poisoning.
+
+[3:27] I love that line. That's from sipping on some czurip. But uh the way, like uh point mean mean on. Yeah. Uh the intro to that song is kind of amazing, don't you think so, Dave?
+
+[3:41] I don't know. Absolutely. We're probably not allowed to play it because we didn't buy any rights to anything, but we don't have that kind of money. Yeah, rhyming shrimp with sh I believe shrimp is rhymed with with pimp, right? They don't there's only like uh I we have to look up look up the exact lyrics.
+
+[3:56] That's not the important part. The important part is that we um I wonder whether we are raising a generation of people with not enough iodine. Probably not. We're overvitamined in everything that we that we consume, right? I mean, as Americans, we're pretty much over vitamined, but it's just something to consider the fact that we have reduced the overall iodine in uh in our diet to the extent that we cook with kosher salt, which for me is 100%.
+
+[4:19] Or molden salt, which also has, you know, not I don't think it has a lot of iodine in all. I mean it is sea salt, so it should have some iodine, but I use relatively little malden salt compared to kosher salt. Okay. Uh A.T. Dustin wrote in uh showing a uh New York Times article that came out yesterday.
+
+[4:34] Do you read the Times, Nastasia? No. No. There's an article uh talking about uh how in the 60s the sugar industry paid money to scientists to say that it that articles that were pointing to a do-a review article that said that the um people who were saying that sugar increases uh uh the your risk of cardiovascular disease were uh were wrong and that they were basically being paid by the sugar industry, and so everyone is uh you know up in arms that the sugar industry would do this thing. Here's the thing, and you know, they had like Mary Nessel was quoted in it, uh a guy named Stanton Glantz, who's big known for uh was on the paper actually, because it just got released in I think in Gemma.
+
+[5:15] Uh and it uh you know was very critical. Uh he was a big tobacco anti-tobacco guy. Here's you know, here's my take on it. What do you think happens? Like, do you like what does what does what do we all think happens here in America or anywhere?
+
+[5:33] A corporation makes a product, sugar. What do they want? You to buy it. What do they not want? You to think that it is unhealthy.
+
+[5:43] So clearly, they're going to do whatever they can at to at any point to try to convince people that uh that their product is good, right? And that just stands to reason. And so uh I think you know, the other thing is it's it's paying it out to look, and it is actually really sinister if you read it. Um they weren't paid that much money. It was like fifty thousand dollars in in today money to two scientists to be to publish a review article.
+
+[6:11] By and large, um every here's what I think. Like, yeah, like their recommendations were the the those scientists' recommendations uh regarding um fat, because they were they were very much uh in kind of the uh Ansel Keys, fat is the bad thing and not sugar uh thing. They probably believed what they were saying. Yeah, they took money, yes, they gave drafts of their paper back to the sugar industry, yes, they did not disclose it. No one disclosed stuff like that at the time.
+
+[6:38] It was kind of the wild west. Should it have been disclosed? Yes, is it now? Should be, uh often is. But the the fact is is that there is a false belief among uh uh among us that scientists are somehow dispassionate, that science, nutritional science especially, that it is somehow non biased or should be non biased.
+
+[7:01] Every paper that I have read on nutrition is intensely biased one way or the other. So I'm sure that these sugar scientists didn't go to like, you know, Billy and Joe neutral to write a review article saying that sugar uh you know did not contribute to um cardiovascular disease, whereas uh fat did. Uh I'm sure they didn't choose neutral people, they probably chose people who already believe them anyway. And this is how stuff works now. Scientists have particular views, they're searched out by industry because they have uh particular views, and then money does or doesn't change hands, but even if money doesn't change hands, the scientists still are biased towards their opinion.
+
+[7:41] And then if a research if a uh if a corporation wants to use their research, uh they will anyway uh to publicize it. So I think the whole thing is wretched. I think uh, you know, this just points out that I think most nutritional science on either side, if there are two sides or five sides, all five sides, is all wretched and horrible because it all starts with with fundamentally, typically of the stuff that I've read, skewed data interpreted through the lens of people that have a preconceived notion of what they think the answer is. Uh and I think you know that's one of the big differences between um you know, people who do long-term predictive studies or like come up with scientific theories that can be easily uh tested and confirmed, and these kind of like large-scale uh multifactorial uh epidemiological studies. Anyway, that's my thoughts.
+
+[8:28] Um I'm sure some people are gonna think I'm a jerk for saying, but that's just the truth. Bobby White wrote in, so Bobby wrote in about white zin. Uh remember we were talking about white zen when we were talking about that stuff. And he said uh uh many Sonoma wineries now make a dry rose that is labeled as rose without a great breakdown, but it's often just a Zinfandel or an Italian field br uh blend made predominantly out of Zinfandel. Uh there are plenty that taste like a serious wine.
+
+[8:53] My wife made four barrels of dry Zinfandel rose at work in 2013 and pulled off a barrel for our wedding, which was excellent, though it might be a bit old at this point. I can open a bottle and give it a try and send it in if you're interested, but it should not be hard to find a decent example from Sonoma out where you live. Bobby. Yeah, sure, try it. I would love to taste someone's wedding wine.
+
+[9:10] That'd be sweet. Taste if it's still I mean, not sweet, dry, but you know what I'm saying. Uh okay. Um let me see. So you do are we ready to get to the cookie tasting, or do you want to do that?
+
+[9:19] You want to you want to take some questions, go to the break and come back? You tell me. You're the hammer. What do you want to do? I don't know.
+
+[9:25] All right, so let's do a couple more questions and you decide what you want to do. Um David needs to get in on this too. Because there's too many. Too many cookies. This has like too many.
+
+[9:35] We're all going down together. So now we're going back to Les Claypool. Nastasia Lopez. First and only time has ever quoted Primus on the air. In fact, it's the first time I've ever heard her.
+
+[9:48] Yeah, but still, like you hate whenever I quote lyrics, you hate it. Oh God. Are getting cracked in the dark. Anyway, well, like, yeah, it's like unbelievable for Nastasia to my brain. Now I have the whole thing in my head.
+
+[10:13] So many cookies. So many cookies. All right, so we're gonna taste them. I don't think people do people listen to Pri David. Do people listen to Primus anymore?
+
+[10:20] Uh yeah, like on the festival scene, I think. Oh my god, what's the festival scene? Is that like uh like Bonaroo, all that nonsense? I thought you meant like they're like a big festival band. When someone says festival, I think Renaissance Festival.
+
+[10:33] That's where I had my 14th birthday party. At a Renaissance festival? Yeah, nerd alert. Nerd alert. No, no, that's what you need the siren sirens for.
+
+[10:40] Mm-hmm, meme, m er. Like like those Renaissance festivals are some weird business. Did you get any dates at the Renaissance Festival? You mean like the kind that you eat? Yeah.
+
+[10:52] Bad dates. Bad dates. Another one of our favorite quotes. Yeah, like our fourth reference to that. Well, uh like not today, just in life.
+
+[11:01] Uh only because you don't live at my house where it like comes up constantly. Oh. Like like whenever my cousins are over, it's nothing but Indiana Jones references like a hundred percent of the time. Like mixed up, like all the movies mixed up differently, uh, you know, and and sometimes mixed up with other stupid things that we would we do. Okay.
+
+[11:21] From Alan Snow. Um Hope Italy was good and the centrifuge is uh coming along. Uh last year I sent a question about how to get the pectin levels down before the fermentation of apple to make apple jack. Uh Dave mentioned that he was going to answer the question next week a couple of times, but was too busy. If there's any chance uh an answer uh of an answer because apples are almost here again, I'd be very grateful.
+
+[11:42] Last year I tried freezing to sediment out the pectin, uh uh for sediment out the pectin, um, but uh still had uh too high of methanol levels uh when it was done in the apple jack was a headache. In the end I rode a vap the results and cut the heads off long. Um the other question I have is is it worth rotovapping a black treble truffle? I've been given one that seems pretty dried out and wondered if truffle vodka might be a way of getting the max flavor out of it uh and a way of storing it for use in dishes. Uh look, it's uh it should work.
+
+[12:09] Uh like rotovapping the truffle should work. Uh you know, I spoke to the truffle guys in Oregon who deal mainly with Oregon truffles, and they don't um do direct seep stuff. They literally just put truffles in jars with things, but I think that's because they want to use the truffle again later. I don't think since we eat truffles, I don't think there's gonna be anything that you're gonna extract out that's bad uh into the uh into the vodka, and then I think you know you'll get most of those aromatic notes back out when you do uh the rotovap. So the answer is I think you'll get a lot.
+
+[12:40] I mean, I don't know what in a truffle. I mean, look, most of what's interesting about a truffle is the aroma anyway, let's be honest, right? I mean, that's what that's what most of what's interesting about it. So it should it should work. Uh and I've read some papers online, not specifically with truffles, but on the cold uh on the low temperature vacuum distillation of other mushroom aromas, and it seems to work well.
+
+[13:00] All right. Uh as for pectin, um the call I remember getting in about pectin was trying to keep pectin uh during the process of keeving, which is uh process making cider where uh you actually induce a pectin gel to form after the juicing procedure to trap um nutrients. And the reason you want to trap nutrients is so that the yeast die before they have a chance to ferment out all the sugars so it uh so so that the cider remains sweet without having to add uh sugar back to it. And for that, you obviously want to reinforce the pectin cause. So what they typically do is they'll add a pectin methylesterase enzyme, which strengthens the pectin, let it sit for a while, and then they will um they will hit it with calcium chloride, uh, you know, if you adding stuff if you're wanting people to add stuff, and then that'll cause that gel to really um firm up.
+
+[13:48] The gel will trap what it's gonna trap, it'll float to the top, skimmed off, ferment. Uh but your question is quite different. It seems to me what you want to do is just get rid of the uh pectin, and for that I would just use Pectanax Ultra SPL. I don't know, like uh, have you tried that and it's failed? Pectanex Ultra SPL will wipe out the pectin liquid T split, like, and you can add it at the end of fermentation, which is uh, you know, what I typically I've done it both ways.
+
+[14:14] I've added a pectin. Some people had uh a pectin, a pectin X are uh during the smashing procedure or before crushing so that you increase the yield of juice out of the press. In fact, that's what there's uh there's one called pectinx smash. It's designed literally for that to increase the yield off of apples. Uh alternatively, I mean, you know, and if you're doing a press that way, you can add the enzyme early, right?
+
+[14:37] I wanted uh my problem was I was kind of it was clarifying uh quickly, it was clarifying beforehand, so I actually let it ferment uh on with the suspended sediment and then knocked it out at the end. And for that, pectinx uh ultra SPL is very good because it works in alcoholic environments. So you can add like a couple of uh milliliters per liter at the end of your fermentation time. It should settle out uh the you know, as long as you as long as it's not actively carbonated, which is going to keep popping the stuff off the top. Once the carbonation level and the CO2 has died down and fermentation is slowed, all of that stuff will settle to the bottom with your yeast, and you should be able to get it get rid of almost all of the pectin.
+
+[15:19] Now, if you want to kill the pectin early because you think it's producing other products in it, right? So for I don't I don't know this, I haven't looked it up, but if there are things that are producing methanol in your uh fermentation, then I would recommend um juicing, adding the pectin X at the get-go, uh, and then racking, right? And then uh you'll you'll lose some at the bottom, or you can do a separate surf uh fermentation of the kind of stuff that has the broken down pectin in it, and then ferment the batch with no pectin in it uh by starting at the beginning. But even without a centrifuse, you should be able, depending on the apple variety, some apple varieties don't settle very well uh at all. Uh and some apple varieties settle quite well.
+
+[16:00] But if you're doing a typical um, you know, uh chumming them up in an apple grinder and and pressing them, uh you're getting rid of a lot of the solids anyway. So then hitting it with uh with with um the ultra SPL after that procedure, but before fermentation should work. So I don't know whether you're one of these people that um kills the yeast and then and then allows the wild yeast to do afterwards, but you at least have a day before it really starts ripping and roaring, and that's more than enough time to get the pectin to settle out. Anyway, what do you think? Okay.
+
+[16:28] You're like, don't. Nastasi's like, don't care. Okay. Uh I got a chat room question if you want to. Sure, what do you what do you got?
+
+[16:35] Actually, it's more like a request for uh New York restaurant recommendations from both of you. Uh well Nastasia should give the recommendations. No, don't eat out anymore. Since when you have recommendations. When did you stop eating out?
+
+[16:47] Months ago. Oh, what was the best place to eat months ago? It's probably not relevant anymore. Why? Do they close?
+
+[16:54] I can't I need to think. What kind of restaurants are they? Where are they coming from? Uh I don't know. They're come they're coming here though, so.
+
+[17:05] All right, well nice. Well, so that's one that's one out of the way. Um I mean it depends on what you want, right? How much money you're doing. Chicago, I hear I'm getting.
+
+[17:12] Oh, yeah. It depends on what kind of restaurant experience you want, really. I mean, like everyone's all uh everyone's uh are they still everyone's still hyped up about uh Pasquale Jones? What kind of pill you take, Nastasi? We're on the radio here.
+
+[17:24] It's pep, pep it up, pep it up, give some answers. Uh it looks like he's already going to Contra, which totally go there. No, Contra Contra is uh that's uh, you know, uh m my my friends uh fabulous, Fabian von Howski and uh Jeremiah Stone. Definitely go there. Where's that?
+
+[17:42] That is in the lower east side uh on Orchard Street, like down, you know, close to Delancey. Yeah, definitely go there. What kind of food? Uh good. Oh, that kind.
+
+[17:53] Yeah, no, like so here they have two restaurants. They have Wild Air, which is like a natural wine bar situation where you know you order like uh tastings, uh like plates, and then they have where they they have this incredibly crispy squid thing there, and then uh n next door is Contra, which is their original their flagship one, and that's more of a tasting menu. Where not mean like you know, a a f a flight, like they bring like that you get what you get and you don't get upset. You know what I mean? Uh both excellent.
+
+[18:19] I've been uh been several times. Yeah. Cool. All right. Uh so good choice.
+
+[18:24] Um we had a question from Ryan about from St. Louis about comfy. Uh a local chef determined butcher, uh offers comfy chicken leg quarters a to-go. What's a chicken leg quarter? Do they mean the whole quarter of the back chicken, including the leg?
+
+[18:40] I think that's what they mean. You think that's what they mean? I have no idea what a chicken leg quarter is. I think it's probably just the chicken leg with the thigh and that piece of the that piece of the skeleton in the back. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[18:52] Yeah. Like if you were to take a chicken and be like, hey, how about you be four pieces of chicken instead of one piece of chicken? Like that. You know what I'm saying? And so you'd get the f you get the bre two breasts, the two back leg things, and then the back, which you use for soup.
+
+[19:04] Yeah? Yeah. That's what I'm gonna assume we're talking about. He mentioned they were cooked at 180 degrees Fahrenheit for seventy-two hours using a circulator. I'm interested in replicating this at home, but have not seen any similar time and temperatures of this preparation online.
+
+[19:17] Is it likely that I misheard the butcher's instructions, or do you think that this time and temperature could yield great results? Also, would you recommend salting before the cook? Thanks for your time. Show's fantastic. Ryan from St.
+
+[19:29] Louis. Yeah, you're if it's gonna be a Confi, you gotta salt it beforehand, or it doesn't taste like confit, right? So I I would always go through the classic uh cure step with uh herbs and salt before you do uh your confie. And the salt, again, it's not just taste, the texture of the meat. Uh I'm pretty sure, although I have I done it without any salt at all?
+
+[19:52] Look, salt it. That's what it's supposed to be. That's what a confid is supposed to taste like. Modern confis have a lot lower salt level than old school confis. Uh, because in an old school confie, it was salt and then cooking uh and it was an actual preservation method.
+
+[20:05] So you're looking at preserving something on degrees. And the salt level in those cases needs to be high enough to prevent the growth of things like botulism. Um there's also, you know, contrary to what people say, uh, you know, a decent amount of evaporation. Not a lot, you know, not a boat ton, but enough, because otherwise it wouldn't be bubbling now, would it? So the uh because that's what is evaporating uh water, the oil's not boiling.
+
+[20:26] Anyway, so one, yes, salt. Two. I have never seen a recipe that is a hundred when you're at 180 degrees, you're up close to normal confi temperatures anyway, like 185, somewhere in there Fahrenheit. Uh this is in the the 80s, somewhere in the 80s in Celsius land. And uh that is kind of normal Confi temperature, and therefore I would say it only needs to cook for normal confeed time on the order of several hours, or you know, a little more, uh not a little less, a little more, depending uh if you're on the lower side of that temperature.
+
+[21:01] And as your temperatures drop lower, even a little bit lower, the times are going to extend longer and longer. When I start hearing things like seven forty-eight, seventy-two hours, then I'm thinking you're cooking at a much lower temperatures, down like sixty-four degrees uh Celsius, which I can't convert in my head. Uh, because that's the lowest thing I would confia uh chicken ad still gonna, you know, it's it's but here's the thing. I have tested lower temperature confis in the 64, 65 Celsius range, and those ones you would have to cook for not for 72 hours, but for a long time. And I don't like them because they don't have the characteristic texture of confit.
+
+[21:36] They're they're good, they're not overcooked, uh, and they are tender, but they're not the same. My guess is that if you cook it for that long, that it's gonna be a little bit mushy. I would never do it for 72 hours. I don't see any benefit. I think you're gonna lose texture at that point.
+
+[21:50] Uh but that that's me. Um Did I say enough about that? Mm-hmm. All right. So uh should we take uh a short break and come back uh with some cookies on cookie cookie issues.
+
+[22:02] Cookie issues? Yeah. All right. Right back. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps.
+
+[22:24] If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[22:57] Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. Welcome back to a cooking issues.
+
+[23:29] So we're doing a cookie tasting uh from uh Judy Malden. And she said to only unwrap them on air. So Nastasia has the mic down by the wrapper so that you can hear the fact that we are unwrapping it. Sorry, what's his name? Gritzer.
+
+[23:43] Daniel Gritzer is the one that hates the noises? He made them when he was on air. What a what a I'm saying like uh you know. Okay, so there's a note on the cookie. What does it say?
+
+[23:53] This one is a matcha butterscotch. Matcha and butterscotch. Do you like matcha in general stuff? Yeah? Do you like matcha ice cream or matcha the beverage or any form of matcha?
+
+[24:03] In any form. Really? I'm quite surprised. Because other people like matcha, so I would assume that you do not. So, Dave, you're gonna come in here and sit down for a minute.
+
+[24:12] Uh step away from the booth. Yeah, this thing can run itself. Alright. What do you say? He's like, I don't really need to be here, it can run itself.
+
+[24:19] Okay. So, all right, so here we'll break this into into chunks. Now, Nastasia's had these in her apartment for a couple of weeks because things haven't worked out to the you know what they're supposed to. That's good. Step away from the mic when you're chewing.
+
+[24:40] Excuse flavor. Alright, going in. It's good. Yeah. I like matcha.
+
+[24:48] It works. It's kind of light on the matcha, right? Yeah. It's light on matcha, heavy on the brown sugar. Heavy on the, well, that's the butter scotch.
+
+[24:56] What's the next one? By the way, so she's making these in. So her whole shtick. What is it? What's the next one, Sas?
+
+[25:01] Matcha cover, cocoa, macadamia, green mango, cranberry. What? This is a second matcha thing? Yeah. Hmm.
+
+[25:09] Anyway. So her her thing here is she's obsessed with, you know, she we should get her a meeting with uh Christina Tozy because she is obsessed with Christina Toesy. She loves Christina Toesy. So she ba basically she bases all of these cookies on Tozy's base recipe for I forget which one, the blueberry cream, blueberry cream. What's the next one?
+
+[25:28] We have to, by the way, we have to go through. It does not. This might be uh double. Alright, well get one of the next ones. Alright, so while while you're unwrapping this.
+
+[25:36] What? Green mango pine nut. You should open those ones. You you open those while I'm answering the question. You're unwrapping these and tasting.
+
+[25:43] While you're by the way, that is not mouth noises, that is cellophane noises. So I don't want to hear any. Dave, the Dave, our intrepid engineer, is uh is doing that. But we can't all eat at the same time. So Dave, you take a bite of this and you can discuss this as it happens, and I'll talk so that no one has to listen to just dead radio silence of mouth noises, which everybody hates.
+
+[26:04] Alright, well, while uh David's tasting these uh cookies, uh, and then I'll taste them. I'm gonna answer a question from Nick Devlin. Uh Nick wrote into Twitter before what's a reasonable yield for a Houstino, and Justino, by the way, is when you blend liquor and fruit, uh, and then uh with uh with uh pectanex uh enzyme, it destroys the pectin. You spin it out and the center fusion becomes clear again. What's a reasonable yield for a Houstino?
+
+[26:29] I'm getting around 85% yield using dried peach at 150 grams of dried peach per liter of booze in a center fusion at 330 degrees, uh 300 uh 300 uh 3,300 G's. I think we got enough of the crinkle stuzz. I'm gonna move that of the mic away. Um I said, look, uh, you know, if you dry fruits out, it really lowers the yield. And it's because if you look at 150 grams of dried peaches, that's the equivalent probably of like 500 grams of uh peaches.
+
+[26:59] So you're looking at like almost uh you're looking at probably at somewhere on the order of 250, 300 and something uh grams of water loss. So the peach, as you infuse it in the liquor, is going to want to reabsorb uh that that water, and so it's gonna make your yield consequently lower. Also, because you are um you're hydrating it and trying to break it down, the parts that aren't hydrated aren't going to get broken down by your pectinx enzyme that well. So I recommend always doing what's called a remouillage, and in a remouillage, what you're doing is you're re-moistening the stuff and trying to extract out some of the stuff that you missed on the on the first go-around. And you tried that and you said that when you blended the remi back in, it ended up too weak.
+
+[27:42] So here are my two recommendations. One, you don't want to use a lot. When I'm saying when you're doing a remouillage, it's just a little bit of water, just enough to kind of resuspend it and make it a liquid again, add a little more enzyme, uh, and then that will hopefully break down some of the stuff that uh didn't get broken down before and increase your yield uh dramatically. And also, before your first spin, blend it with the pectinx, wait a while for the stuff to rehydrate again, and then blend it again uh to kind of re-break up what's in there and really get it broken down fine. So waiting is really gonna be your friend.
+
+[28:19] And uh if you do a remouillage, just a small amount uh and even maybe a little bit of liquor with a little bit of water, or just a little bit of water at the get-go into the dried fruit before you do the blend to try to get some of the water level back up a little bit before you do your um before you do your spin. And so that's what I'm gonna recommend. So how the Dave, how were those uh which ones did you taste? I'm not sure. Well, okay.
+
+[28:43] I just kinda ate what you handed me. All right, well, so uh we have to be. They were good. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[28:48] Um they're a little cold. Where where were you storing them? Uh those two are in the freezer. Oh, okay, yeah. In her heart.
+
+[28:58] Wow. That was a that was the green mango one. That's good. Okay, yeah, the mango one was the one I just had. No, read the ombre description there.
+
+[29:05] Oh, I have another cookie. Uh, El Ombre. Chili Pekin, guitar chocolate. Uh no, that's not the one I had. No, you haven't had that yet.
+
+[29:16] Peanut butter chips and cocoa. So it's a spicy, it's a spicy chocolate. It's a spicy Reese. Okay. It's a spicy recess cookie.
+
+[29:23] Oh. Is it is it in fact a spicy recess cookie? It's like super spicy? Chili Pekins uh pecking. Is it is a nice uh spicy day.
+
+[29:33] Well, in a minute, after like I'm done talking, then he can alright, so you ready to talk? He's still chewing. This is the hard part about Judy about cookie tastings on the air, is they take your mouth parts up. It's impossible to talk. What?
+
+[29:46] I don't Yeah, she did not like the wine tasting, that's true. Alright. So um, let me see. Uh Brandon Hodgkin's uh wrote in, uh Hodgins wrote in about induction in Phoenix. Uh I'm remodeling my you're tasting these and you're letting me know what's going on.
+
+[30:03] Right. Yeah. Alright, I'm remodeling my kitchen soon, which means I get to pick out a new cooktop. My home is not fitted for gas, so I'm going with an induction cooktop. I want to just use the pavement.
+
+[30:12] You ever been in summer in Phoenix does? Yeah. Nasty, right? About you, Dave. You ever been to never been.
+
+[30:18] No? Never been at all? No. I like Phoenix. It's like well, Arizona, a lot of old people, right?
+
+[30:22] In Arizona. I mean, there's a little bit of Florida of the Southwest. Uh yeah. I mean, especially there's certain there's like retirement communities there, but um they like if you grew up watching Bugs Bunny Roadrunner, it like really looks like that. Right.
+
+[30:36] Like there really are Seguaro cactuses just like hanging around. So you like the desert and you're into that? I mean it's pretty cool. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:43] Like, and like they're also like if you're into like Yosemite Sam and that kind of stuff, there are literally tumbleweeds flying around on the streets. Like it's like real. You know what I mean? Like not in the city proper, but it's no joke. What cookie is that you're handing up?
+
+[30:57] This is the MFing jungle. The oh uh is this like uh MFing is uh presumably the uh the curse uh family show. Yeah, and that's uh that's also uh matcha based. Okay. So um anyway, back to back from Phoenix.
+
+[31:13] This one's for you, Dave. Phoenix also like, I don't know, like the main problem I have with Phoenix is it's in like a bowl-shaped valley, and so it's easy for pollution to kind of get caught down there, but I haven't been there in over a decade, so I don't know if they've taken care of that problem. Why? What is this one? This one's the one with poison it?
+
+[31:29] No. This is nuclear war cheetos. Oh, alright. Alright, so let's we'll try that. Alright, what was the one I just had?
+
+[31:36] The M Effer? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a little sweet. So break break off. This is nuclear war cheetah, which I'm gonna try after I answer this question while Dave is talking about the cookies.
+
+[31:43] Okay. Um Stad, you could you can make your comments in a second here. Um I do not have gas, so I'll be going induction. I have the oven separate so I can go with a standalone cooktop. I've narrowed it down to two options and was wondering if I could get your opinions and advice.
+
+[31:58] Uh he's looking at the Wolf CI, which is not stand for cooking issues. I believe it's probably cooktop induction. 36 uh 5, 365, so it's 36 inches wide, five burner. Um and the Bosch NITP triple six. Now, I like triple six uh because of the triple six mafia and of course the double reps.
+
+[32:19] Satanic, yeah. Yeah. I don't know why anyone would make a a cookware appliance with the number of the beast in it, but although maybe if it sells well, like we should uh think of that for our stuff. We should change it from the the centrifuge to a uh triple six thing. I don't know.
+
+[32:34] Anyway. Uh so you said Bosch uh seems cool because of the square zones on the side. So here let me tell you the layout because you guys can't see what the hell's going on. Uh I can't either, but I looked at it earlier. So it turns out induction uh induction cooktops look like they've come a long way in the in the past couple of years.
+
+[32:50] The way that the um the way that the um wolf is laid out is it has uh four normal size burners on the side and then one large burner on the on on the on the left and one large burner on the right. Now what's cool about the wolf is that you can run everything in called bridge mode. So you can bridge the back two burners into one burner, the front two burners into one burner, or the side burn uh you know, the left or the right into into one burner, and they also have what's called boost, so you can suck the power out of the um burner next to it, which you're not using, and jack it into um into one burner, and and it's kind of it's it's fairly powerful. So like uh, you know, the the smaller ones go between 2100 watts, which is still more powerful than any plug-in induction, and 3,000 watts in boost, and the big one goes from 2600 watts to 3700 watts, uh which is good, it's powerful uh in boost. Uh it looks good, people seem to like it.
+
+[33:53] Um what I'm curious about when you put those things in bridge mode and have two burners running and try to put like a roasting pan across it. I wonder how even the heat is because they look uh it looks kind of like the like the elements are are round, but people seem to enjoy using it. Um the other thing I'll note, and this also goes for the Bosch, is that neither of them appear to allow you to control temperature, which is kind of interesting. They all go by power ratings. And one of the nice things about um induction is if you put proper sensors in now, well, they won't be as accurate as the um the Breville one that I'm using because it they're not gonna have external uh you know, like pop-up sensors like the Breville one does, but you can put like uh something under the ceramic to do basic sensing of temperature, and you could also have a jack so that you could have a temperature monitor monitor it.
+
+[34:37] I'm just a little surprised that they don't give you a temperature um as well as a as a power, but uh maybe no one does that in a in a cooktop because the Bosch people don't do it either. But it seems like a good unit. The Bosch unit is really, really an interesting setup because what they do is they have a large round uh burner in the middle, and then on the left and right they have uh rectangular burners that are divided into two sections. So you have a like a like a uh uh front and back, left and right, and then a big center one. And the f the the interesting thing is that the layout of them is can also be bridged together so that they're one, you know, either a full left side or a full right side.
+
+[35:14] Uh you can't do what the um wolf does. Well the wolf allows you to do all four as one, a big 17-inch by 17 inch thing, which would be cool if you had a large cast iron griddle, let's say. Uh but these allow you to do strips uh along the um along either side. Uh and I actually saw an exploded diagram of it, and the actual elements are kind of dual uh oval elements, so it should probably be fairly even over the entire width of that uh element, which is nice. Now that gets me the only downside I really see about the uh Bosch is people seem to say that they don't like uh how the controls work for it.
+
+[35:51] And since you're gonna be using it every day uh for all of the cooking that you're doing, I highly suggest that you actually use it. I'm gonna say the same thing about the other one. Find someone somewhere that has a unit running that will let you run it. They they should have uh some in here in New York, they even have some places that have all of their cooktops hooked up. But I would be very curious how even the um the the wolf one is when you're using non round pans on those things in bridge mode.
+
+[36:21] If they're even then fan friggin' tastic. But they draw the burner shapes round, which leads me to believe that the elements themselves are round. Uh I'm also curious to see how even it is uh on the Bosch. If the Bosch had excellent con if people really love the controllers on the Bosch, I'd probably go with the Bosch. But since people seem to really like the controls on the Wolf and not on the Bosch, then I might go for the Wolf, assuming I could get a relatively heating thing.
+
+[36:46] But I would definitely say you have to use it. It's too big an investment to make to not uh use. Yeah? Alright. So uh Dave, you gotta you guys you gotta start talking about the cookies you tasted while I eat them so that I'm not making mountains.
+
+[36:59] I'm waiting for you to breathe. All right, I'm breathing. Alright. Um yeah, the Cheeto one, not not a fan. I'll I'm also not a fan of Cheetos to begin with, though, so um yeah, I don't know.
+
+[37:08] They tasted kind of stale and brittle, and that didn't really work for me. But um I have one here called Fugazi, which is uh getting me really excited. And I think it's like some kind of is is there mint in there? Is there a description of that one? The Fugazi?
+
+[37:24] Yes. Thank you. Yeah, that one's pretty good. Um I can't find roxan. It's the only one I can find.
+
+[37:36] You have to put on the red light. I was chewing, or I would have said it for you. Do you don't like Cheetos? No, never did. Any kind of like cheese puff snack I'm not a fan of?
+
+[37:47] I just had the Pekin. It's not that spicy. The spice builds at the end. Yeah, it's not spicy, it's kind of smoky, but not like a ton of heat to it. No.
+
+[37:55] Alright, so Nastasia's trying to find the the I don't think that came here. Roxanne now is going through my head. What's in the Fugazi? Oh, because the red hot's red lights? Oreo, cookies, York peppermint patties, and cardamom.
+
+[38:14] You like your peppermint patties, Nastas? Did you say cardamom? Yeah. That's what that is. There's something else in there.
+
+[38:19] I couldn't tell what it was. Do you do like your peppermint patties? Do you like them in the freezer or not? No. Really?
+
+[38:24] Yeah. That was my favorite candy as a kid. Freezer or not freezer? None. Huh.
+
+[38:30] Are both of you non-freezer candy people in general? Or do you like any sort of freezered candy? I do not. Really? I mean, if it's got ice cream inside of it, then sure.
+
+[38:40] But you don't like that super hard frozen candy bar thing? No, it's gotta have a little melt to it. Oh, it will melt if you chew it. Not immediately. I like how you I like how usually I'm the immediate gratification guy, and now you're like, must be immediate melt, or it's all worthless.
+
+[38:57] It's just uh uh you know, I don't want to have something like rock solid that I'm chewing on. It's not it's not ideal. All right. Um hey, Stas, can you do me a favor? Can you check our email and see if Johnny Hunter got back?
+
+[39:10] Because I asked him if someone asked uh someone asked a question on smoking, and I might put that off for next week because I want to get Johnny's opinion on it. So, Martin, if you're uh listening, uh we're gonna do your smoking question um next week because I just wanna I wanna verify uh something. Wait, do you mean like by 1128? Did you look by eleven twenty-eight? I looked I I didn't look after I got on the train.
+
+[39:32] No, I'm saying you check now and see whether Johnny got back to us. Well you sound something in 1128 at all. Oh, that yeah, that's it. All right, so like uh I'll I'll I'll read it. I will take a break in a minute and I'll read.
+
+[39:41] All right. Uh okay. Andrew writes in, I'm pretty new to the show, but I've already learned so much. I was hoping to see Dave at Harvard on Monday as I'm living in Boston right now, but I wasn't able to make it. Anyway, uh I make a cocktail with honey syrup, one to one honey with water.
+
+[39:53] By the way, one to one honey with water uh is not a uh it's it's that's a very light syrup. I wouldn't go one to one honey with water. Uh you're adding too much water, and I think that's part of you you want six hundred and forty grams of water for every kilo of honey. I'll repeat that again. Six hundred and forty grams of water for every kilo of honey.
+
+[40:13] And the reason is there are in every kilo of honey, there is already um eighteen uh a hundred and eighty grams of water. Right? Okay. Uh whether you care or not, that's the truth. Uh and lavender infused vodka.
+
+[40:28] It tastes great, but in order to have the amount of honey flavor I want, I have to add a lot of honey. This makes the drink super sweet. Um I want a clear honey flavor without the sticky, impossible to drink multiple sweetness. I'm also interested in the use of honey flavor and savory dishes without a huge addition of sweetness. I know you guys have answered a similar question with the distillation of floral notes of habanero peppers.
+
+[40:48] And if you've answered this question before, I apologize. I have a lot of catching up to do in the podcast, but otherwise, any help would be great. Thanks so much, Andrew. Well, you could go for like uh if you want honey flavor without the sweetness, you could do distillation. I'm pretty sure I used to do rotovab stuff of honey, although I can't really remember it.
+
+[41:04] Um you could also use uh you could ferment out some of the sugars and use a mead that's on the drier side, right? And that's gonna have although the honey notes will have changed. But you one of the main things is like I said, don't do uh one to one to one. Do uh 640 uh to a kilo. And then by adding less water, the entire thing will be shorter, right?
+
+[41:27] So you're but you're still gonna have the problem because to get us whatever level of sweetness, you're gonna add however much actual sugar from the honey. So the real solution to your problem, I believe, is going to be um finding a stronger honey. So, like, you know, do like a comparative honey taste, and some of them are much, you know, wildly uh more uh assertive than others. So I don't know what you're using. You didn't mention like if you're using something that's relatively neutral, like a clover honey, uh, you know, by switching to something a little more with a little more power, I think you'll uh be able to up up your up your honey game.
+
+[42:02] Do you remember anything we did with uh with honey? No. I'm sure I must have distilled it at some point, but I can't remember what the results are. Um so do you do you think those the and the thing is the meads once they're fermented don't taste a hundred percent like honey anymore, right? But they're good.
+
+[42:18] You could bolster it with fresh honey, and then I think it would be like honey pow, but that's expensive. And it's probably hard for anyone who's not doesn't have a source already to find the dry meat, and they're not anyway, something to think about. Okay. So uh could you do me a favor? Can you pull up Johnny's email on your phone so that I can keep the uh the thing up?
+
+[42:36] Okay, we got a question in from did you taste all the cookies by the way? My stomach hurts. I think I had too many cookies. Too many cookies. What's the one I have in my hand that you handed me, Nastasia?
+
+[42:46] Um I think that's the Karen. Karen. Did you have Fugazi yet? Uh maybe I have Fugazi. No, Fugazi's down here.
+
+[42:56] All right, listen, why don't we take a quick break? I'll chew on this read Johnny's thing, and then I'll come back and answer this question. And we are back. Alright, so it turns out, Martin, I am gonna answer your question. Um I I like a lot of times, like if I haven't done uh something specifically, I like to just ask people that actually have rather than give advice out of the blue, right?
+
+[43:59] So Martin writes in, uh hi Dave. I'm about to build myself a smokerslash dryer to make cold smoked jerky. It kind of sounds vaguely like cold smoked jerky. Sounds like a little there's something vaguely sinister sounding about it. Jerky.
+
+[44:17] I think jerky. I love jerky. You like jerky. Mm-hmm. That's one of the few things that you actually like.
+
+[44:22] Do you like do you like the fibers to be short or long? Short. So you like you don't you don't like to have to like rip your teeth off. You don't want to have to like like get dentures. Well, actually, I guess like you you know, you want a jerky that could be eaten with dentures.
+
+[44:37] That's what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. Denture-friendly. Denture-friendly jerky.
+
+[44:41] Uh I kind of like it in between. Anyway. Uh I want to put a humid a humidostat and a thermostat into as well. The thermostat is for microbial control, and the humidostat is to ensure that I can reproduce the end product consistently. Uh, and then what do you think my process should be?
+
+[44:57] Should I do here are the choices in chat room? You can chime in on this too. Because I know you got some smokers out there. Uh, should I do a two-stage where I one cold smoke and then two dry? Or a three-stage where I one hot smoke for microbial microbial control, two, cold smoke it for additional flavor, and then three, dry, or should I uh do the smoking and drying in a very controlled way all at once?
+
+[45:22] And can you give me tips on the design? And then you ask, what do you think of this smoke generator? And it's a German one, Borneac. So I don't have any experience with it. I don't know anyone that's used it, but I like that word borniak.
+
+[45:33] Uh, because it sounds like a maniac smoker, right? But it's basically just a one of those uh auger screw feeds where it has like a low temperature uh uh element and it feeds the the stuff past the burner, creates the smoke, and has a long tube so that the smoke can cool down, which seems fine. I'm assuming you're gonna put it into something like uh an old fridge or a box that you're gonna make, and a bunch of people sell controllers for it, and it should be fairly straight uh forward on that. But as for your procedure, uh here's what I I asked Johnny, I was like, what do you think uh on safety? He says there can be an E.
+
+[46:06] coli risk if the meat isn't cooked, but if you do an acid wash, then you can lower it. The feds, i.e., our federal government, say you have to cook beef through. That being said, it's almost for sure safe to cold smoke and dry, uh, says Johnny Hunter coming in. I also said, look, the real issue here when you're smoking, right? So when you're making jerky, you just season it, you know, do whatever you're gonna do, season it, and then you dehydrate it.
+
+[46:31] But remember, it's never in an anaerobic environment. So you're never in a situation where you have to worry about um botulism or anything like that growing. The real issue is when you're taking something uh and putting it in an anaerobic environment, which you know, a smoker is, can be anyway, uh, and then um and then not heating it to the point where you're you're going cold, where you're not heating it to destroy botulism, botulism can in fact grow while it's still moist. And then because you're not heating it again afterwards, you're not wouldn't deactivate any toxins that were uh created in the product while it was smoking. That's theory.
+
+[47:08] I don't know, right? And apparently also Johnny says there's an E. coli well, there's obviously coli risk in beef to begin with. Um so, anyways, what you could do on the botulism front if you really want to keep it cold 100%, is you could just nitrate it, right? And then nitrating is gonna prov along with the salt, that's gonna prevent any botulism growth during the cold smoke phase, and then once you're drying it out, then you're drying it out in an aerobic environment.
+
+[47:31] You should be fine. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Um we have time for one more, or we uh Yeah, that's fine. All right. So we have a question in and this is actually this is the one that came with a uh a long question alert from Shy.
+
+[47:45] Because it's more of a follow-up, which uh which I enjoy. Um where are we? Hello, cooking issues. First thing, a while ago I asked how to prevent plums from getting bitter during baking. Because remember, there was there was a problem where uh the plums on cooking uh turned more bitter in a plum tart.
+
+[48:05] And I said that there's a bunch of people online that have that problem. Um I followed your suggestions and soaked half of the chopped plums in milk uh in milk and the other soaked in water, then drained and baked them. Sadly, the experiment failed as none of the plums got bitter at all. Hmm. Well, that's not really failure because you didn't have bitter tart.
+
+[48:25] It seems like a success. Although you know what you didn't do, you didn't do a control with no soak at all. Like maybe uh maybe you were leaching out some of the stuff that caused uh the problem. So you didn't have a full control there. Anyway, um the experiment failed as none of the plums got bitter at all.
+
+[48:39] So I guess it had to do with the variety, ripeness and growing conditions, which it almost uncertainly did. Almost certainly did rather. Uh however, the milk soaked plums did keep a little more solid and firm. Quite interesting. Could that be the calcium in the milk?
+
+[48:53] I doubt there's enough of it to make a difference. Well, I don't know. Uh first of all, the plum is relatively acid, so I don't know how much of the calcium is gonna be available after whatever happens at the kind of acidic barrier between the plum and the milk. It's a question for someone that's actually studied that rather than someone who's just, you know, making it up as I go along, which is what I would be doing if I said something. Uh but your questions about milk.
+
+[49:14] First, I really liked brown milk solids that form when clarifying brown butter. Nastas, are you brown butter fan? Mm-hmm. Yeah? I feel like I used to make brown butter a lot, like I guess because I used to make Madeline's a lot.
+
+[49:27] Do you like Madeline's? Mm-hmm. They're a good pastry, right? Need to be fresh. You know what I don't like?
+
+[49:32] Everyone remember like it like I mean, I think it was Danielle or someone. They used to hand you the Madeleine at the end of dinner and you would eat it right then, it was like fresh. Like you want a Madeleine to be fresh. I love a fresh Madeline. Anyway, brown butter, but there's always uh so little of those solids.
+
+[49:45] Is it possible to add plain milk or cream to the butter in order to increase the amount of solids? Um well, no. You mean no. Because you're you need to make the you need to make the you could okay, look. You could add it maybe to the cream before you churn the butter, right?
+
+[50:06] Uh but the easiest thing to do would probably be just to add milk solids to the cream before you do it because I you don't want to add a whole boat ton of water to extra water in the milk to the um cream before you turn it to butter. But I'm I'm sure you could increase the solids content of uh the butter by uh just jacking the amount of milk solids that are in it. Uh hell. You heck I mean, you might even be able to just add milk solids uh to the butter as it's cooking and just burn them. But it won't be the same.
+
+[50:41] Obviously that's cheating because they won't agglomerate the same way. Um second, what causes uh some labne cheese, which is I guess the same as Greek yogurt? You like Greek yogurt size? Yep. Do you ever go to the Greek yogurt place that's near your house where they make it and it's like super duper thick?
+
+[50:56] Those guys who are like some Turkish stuff and some Greek stuff? No. So good. They make really good stuff and they have really good terra masalata. That's like the best teramo salada I've ever had in my life.
+
+[51:05] For those of you, terra masalata is that Greek thing with like the with like the fish eggs in it, it's kinda creamy. And the stuff that they sell on the supermarket shelves is like rubbish, garbage compared to uh like the rede real deal stuff that uh is made fresh. So if you're in New York and the international if the international grocery is still in business, are they still in business? Do you ever walk by there anymore? I don't walk by there anymore.
+
+[51:29] Anyway, on 9th Avenue, best terra masalata I've ever had in my life. They also make their own batarga. Do you like patarga? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[51:37] Anyway, okay. Um the question because I know we're on our way out. Uh second, uh, what causes some labne cheese to be pleasantly bitter? Now I've never noticed bitterness in uh strained yogurt products like Greek yogurt. You ever notice it?
+
+[51:51] No. Any bitterness? No. I've never noticed it. Uh this is not a flavor I've noticed in other sour milk products, but it's similar to that found in summed age ch Age cheeses.
+
+[51:59] From uh what I've read, this is related to protein breakdown. I would like to be able to induce it when I make my own strained yogurt. Well, uh again, I haven't tasted, so I can't really say. One thing I can say is that in situations where you're removing a lot, a lot, a lot of the water, uh, and the denser it gets, the more whey you're removing, and whey is inherently sweet because whey has uh more lactose in it. And so maybe what you're noticing is just a reduction in sweetness, which should pump up the sourness because that it's gonna the more sour solids there.
+
+[52:28] But also maybe that you're picking up on some flavor that is being masked by the lactose. That's my only guess, and it's just a guess. And lastly, for Nastasha on the way out, one more thing. If I remember correctly, Nastasia should be back from Naples. I plan to visit there in a couple of months and would appreciate hearing about your trip.
+
+[52:42] Anything? Wasn't worth it, don't go. Wow. Nastasia in a really didn't like Naples. What other cities were you there on that trip?
+
+[52:55] Uh none that none that I would recommend. Wow. Normally an Italophile people, but for some reason. Not a good trip. Nastasia.
+
+[53:07] Well, you said a b okay. Nastasia had a bad trip. I have been on Nastasia, been with Nastasia on bad trips, people, and she will judge a whole city by whether she had a good time on a particular trip, and it's just who she happened to be sitting next. So Naples don't take it perfect personally. Cooking issues.org.
+
+[53:38] You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[54:02] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking It Shoes coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Actually, we're really on time this uh today, right? Yeah. You're crazy.
+
+[0:46] We got uh a lot to go through, some good, some great, some terrible. Uh if you have questions, uh call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh on the show, we have as usual Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. I'm good.
+
+[1:04] Good. We have uh Dave slash David in the booth. How you doing? What up? I'm good.
+
+[1:09] Uh we have uh special recurring guest and uh a secondary tasting panel because uh for those of you that listen to the podcast regularly, Nastasia literally doesn't care about coffee, merely because I do care. Really? Definitely not true. It's the only it's the only real reason. Uh so we brought uh lover of all things taste related uh and uh coffee as well, and also an expert in coffee techniques that I am not.
+
+[1:36] Uh we got uh Paul from Popular Science. How you doing? I'm good. Yeah. I've had a lot of coffee already.
+
+[1:41] Yeah, so uh, you know, and you can tweet him out at at Pote.pot dot no it's at at Pote. At PopSiEats. Oh, at PopsIET. Oh, Pote is your On Twitter. Twitter.
+
+[1:50] Or you can email me at my secret private. Uh yeah, nice strength. And we have uh now uh I'm not sure uh his title, but we have uh Kali Kale Kale. Calais. Kale.
+
+[2:04] Kale Fries from Sudden Coffee, correct? Correct. Uh and what's your title over there? I'm uh definitely not chief coffee officer, but I hustle the coffee. I'm co-founder.
+
+[2:16] Are you on the engineering side? Are you on the production side, the tasting side, the money side, the bro side? Uh there's two of us, and I have a numbers guy, Josh, who's very much numbers guy, and then I handled the rest pretty much. So you're more production engineering. All right.
+
+[2:31] So uh he uh he's on the show today because I think you're probably here for the coffee festival we had in New York this weekend, right? Yeah. Yeah, which I went to. We could talk more about that later. But we had a number of people actually uh tweeting on and I think asking even whether we had tried uh this uh sudden coffee.
+
+[2:48] Uh and so we're gonna try it in in a minute. You want to go over what the you had this like w well, how do you start? Were you a Kickstarter situation? What were you? We well, I started working on it about a year ago.
+
+[2:59] So sudden coffee is instant coffee, that tastes really good. Right. That's it. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention what it is is is instant coffee that's supposed to actually be good. Now, is it taste like coffee or is it just good in its own right but isn't the same thing as coffee?
+
+[3:11] Well, we think it's pretty good as as coffee. That's definitely what we aim for. Okay. So it's not a third product. Not really.
+
+[3:18] I think we're what we want to be doing is creating another way, like alternative way of drinking good coffee. It's not meant to replace Burin Coffee yourself or going out to a coffee shop, but rather just help you drink good coffee when you wouldn't be able to otherwise. Yeah. Yep. So uh now your main competitor then is Starbucks still selling that via thing, where it was what's it called?
+
+[3:37] Via Condios, what the hell is that called? Yeah, yeah, via whatever. Yeah, I mean Why would you choose something that has alternate English pronunciations? It's a good question. Via, via if you you can you can hire you can hire a very expensive brand agency who will tell you that that it sounds sophisticated, I guess.
+
+[3:54] Do you think it sounds sophisticated? I don't think so. Right. Do you know that back in the day I used to get into arguments? I I I think they become much more flexible now.
+
+[4:06] We might have talked about this years and years ago, Nastasi, but you would actually appreciate this because this is the kind of thing Nastasi would do. I'd walk in, I would like, I would like a double espresso, and they're like, dopio, and I would say double. And they would say, yeah, they would say dopio, and I was like, no, I would like a double. It would just I would see how long I could keep it going. And it used to be basically forever.
+
+[4:28] They would they would just they would go like Dobio, and then go make hand it to me, and I was like, uh and you know, and there's no need to go into like what the hell tall means because it has no meaning. But um, yeah, I don't think I don't like things that sound like specifically via sounds like via duct. Yeah. And duct work doesn't sound like something I want to drink out of. Or or Viagra.
+
+[4:51] Oh that well, that probably that's that's a good you know, uh I also said this in the air before, but my son Booker, who's now fourteen, so it would be incredibly inappropriate for him to say this. But when he was a little kid, he used to say, I'm gonna put batteries in my penis. When he's a little kid, before he knew what it meant, and I thought that would be the best Viagra slogan. It would beat the hell out of like all of these like Cialis and Viagra things. If they if a dude just walked up and was like, yo, put batteries in your penis, Viagra, boom.
+
+[5:19] And then walked away. How many would that sell? Because batteries, you know, has the they're kind of, you know, you put some batteries in, it becomes like a mag light. You know what I mean? It's very strong.
+
+[5:29] Very strong. Yeah. It can shape the pills to look like little batteries. Like little batteries? Yeah.
+
+[5:35] Is that how it works? It's got the energizer, it's got the energizer reference. Anyway, I think it's genius. And my son Booker has a promising future as an ad uh exec, I think. Anyway, so back to um back to sudden coffee.
+
+[5:51] Before we taste it, I have uh other stuff to go through. But so explain the process. What makes this different from uh Viaduct coffee? Or Folgers, which as Nastasia believes is the best part of waking up. That is definitely not true.
+
+[6:03] Okay. Um before I go there, I think a little bit of context is sort of important. Uh I would be extremely skeptical if somebody came on our air and said that this is instant coffee that doesn't suck. Um my background, I've been working in coffee as a barista for like 10 years, won the Finnish Burks at championships twice, and I was ranked ninth in the world last year. Ran a couple of coffee shops in Helsinki, um, also ninth best coffee taster, I think.
+
+[6:26] And basically what I uh to me, coffee is a really concrete, great way of making somebody stay better. And I want to make great coffee as easy and fun and accessible as possible. And I was really frustrated by how unscalable doing a coffee shop is. So decided to close that about a year and a half ago and started figuring out what would be a more like a better way to make good coffee happen. And I studied food science at University of Helsinki, so had a pretty good idea of instant coffee and why it sucks.
+
+[6:51] And first of all, for those of you that don't know, Finns have one of the highest per capita coffee consumptions in the world. True. But you also like traditionally drink it, uh, some people drink it with grounds, so you also have like strange health anomalies due to high consumption of grounds. Is that not true? Yeah, and especially sort of uh there's a lot of theories about basically the cholesterol, well, or like cholesterol uh increasing um effects of drinking also unfiltered coffee.
+
+[7:16] Yeah. But the vast majority is like drip coffee. Yeah. But you're like you're that much kind of people that you're like, I just drink the grounds. I just that's it.
+
+[7:25] Who needs a filter? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh Nils Noran, my friend, uh finish.
+
+[7:32] What? It's not finished. He's Swedish, but he has Finnish jokes where like you're you're drinking with a you're drinking with a fin and the Swede says to the fin, Skull, and the Finn says, Are we here to drink or to talk? So you talk more than most Finns, I would expect. I know, that's why they kicked me out.
+
+[7:47] And I thought I all it's a benefit benefit of the US. Yeah, nice. All right, go ahead. So like you like you've said more than the entire country of Finland. Pretty much.
+
+[7:54] Alright, nice. Okay, good. All right. So go ahead. So basically what you're saying is you have credentials.
+
+[7:58] Now what? Yeah. So instant coffee is is liquid coffee that's dehydrated. Right. And usually the big companies that be making it now have the intention of making as much of it for as little money as possible without really caring how it tastes like.
+
+[8:10] Although it is technologically sophisticated process, right? It is extremely. Yeah. Theoretically, but I mean if you like if you taste it, uh doesn't taste great for what's been out on the market so far. And that's because they essentially start with like really cheap froppy coffee that nobody else wants to drink.
+
+[8:33] Um take that, verse it, and they extract it twice, which like blew my mind when I first heard about it. You mean they actually like steep it twice to make two beverages, like uh like a like a small beer and a lot, like like like rewashing. Yeah, but even more. So the extracted at like normal temperature, it was called the aroma extraction. So at about like 100 degrees Celsius for for whatever time.
+
+[8:54] And normally out of coffee you can extract about 30% of the mass. So that's like water soluble part and rest of cellulose. It's a grounds you dump. But what they do is that they so they breed wine once and then they brew it twice, second time at like 15 bars pressure, uh 180 degrees Celsius, uh, for hours. And what happens that pressure is that the hemicellulose changes and becomes water soluble.
+
+[9:16] And you can go from like 20% extraction yield, which is the stuff you extract, which is what you normally want to do, to up to sixty percent, which makes a lot of sense if you wanna get as much stuff out of there, out of the bean for as little money as possible. Well, does that also do they need the increase in in other words like would an alternate technique if uh if they weren't looking for pure number of extraction, does it is the hemicellulose help in bulking later? Is that another reason why they do it? Could they add another solids bulking agent or is that it's partly for that. So they what they do after that is they basically combine them and then uh essentially boil it down, so evaporate.
+
+[9:52] Vacuum distillation, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh and then same like for orange juice. Right. And most of it is spray dried.
+
+[9:59] So they actually use that sort of the the added solids. It helps into spray drying. Right. They don't have to add malt right. They don't have to add multixtrin.
+
+[10:07] Now, but the but uh from my impression there is a vacuum distillation run, then a spray dry, right, then a recom combining, and then an air drying, or something like that. There's many steps. It takes a lot of steps to make even crappy instant coffee, right? And I don't even know like what else, like all the stuff that goes into a factory. They haven't shown me one.
+
+[10:25] Uh but but there's a bunch of stuff going and then it's like spray dried, so dried with hot air. Um and uh it's not definitely a great way to preserve any flavors that might be in there or aromas. But they've already de aromatized it at that point for the most part, yeah? Most part, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[10:38] So they actually once you have the dry coffee, they spray some of the coffee aroma and oil into that ground to make it smell and taste fresher. Right, right. But I mean to me there's like whole thing doesn't make any sense. Like w uh we were thinking that what if we what if we just started with the best possible coffee you can find. Right.
+
+[10:53] Extract it really nicely and dehydrate it in a way that really preserves all the flavors in there or as much as we can. By the way, I've never tasted instant coffee. What? Really? Never.
+
+[11:05] What's wrong with you? Uh why would I do that? Well, it I mean, that's a thing. I don't blame you. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:10] I mean, have you tasted it, says? Yeah. I mean, yeah, obviously. What about you, Paul? I believe I've tasted it.
+
+[11:15] It doesn't really matter. I've I think I've got any positive. Uh we used to have it in my house when I was growing up because my mom would use it in cake recipes. Right. Yeah, well, should we try some now?
+
+[11:25] Yeah, okay, so but before, like what's your technique can I get milk and sugar? Whoa. Uh you can, but I will stare at you strangely with busted up eye. Uh yeah, actually, uh David, can we can we get some? Because otherwise Nastasi's gonna hem and haw the rest of the day and say that I'm a bad person more than normal.
+
+[11:42] Yeah, we'll humor her, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. All right. So uh so what's your tech are you using straight freeze drying or what are you doing? Uh kind of.
+
+[11:49] So we uh like we started as a look we're a San Francisco-based startup now. So we started as as there's this famous SAR-p guy called Paul Graham who says that do things that don't scale. Like first get get a product done and see if you can make something you like. Yeah, right. And if somebody wants to pay you that before you figure out how to scale that.
+
+[12:06] So we started by having myself in a garage in Zoma neighborhood, uh with single group espresso machine pulling a lot of espresso shots that we then uh kind of filtered and took through our brosses and and essentially freeze tried. Okay. Now one of the problems with espresso in general, uh, I'm sure you're familiar, is that um it's uh it's uh like like changing constantly on a chemical basis the minute it's pulled. So like a cold espresso, even as carefully rewarmed as possible in a completely static environment with no anything, just changes over time. Or espresso keeping keep kept at a constant temperature will change drastically over time, even if it's sealed.
+
+[12:49] So it's not just simply a volatile loss, like it's actually changing as it's sitting there. More so though than drip, right? Yeah. I mean drip is also changing, but that's like on the order of a couple of hours if it's kept properly, right? I mean, radically changing versus espresso, which is like changing radically quickly, no?
+
+[13:06] Yeah, yeah. I mean in drip coffee you have the the biggest change is is the stuff called chlorogenic acids that start breaking down and constitute to that like bitter, nasty sour taste you let's like your airport taste. Yeah, that's what Nastasia likes the most. So if you don't have that, she's not gonna like it. I'm I'm sorry, we like I I can deliver a little bit of oxygen like uh oxidation, but that's that's about it.
+
+[13:27] Yeah. So you know, Anastasia like preferred actually that's weird. She likes really good wine. I was about to make a jug wine joke, but she actually likes really good wine. So with milk and sugar?
+
+[13:36] With milk and sugar. And remember, she her first food job, I think, real food job, was with Cesare Casella, who will who would put ice cubes in Dompering yell given the choice. And by the way, he can do whatever he wants because he's Chesare Casella. You know what I'm saying? Some people have earned the right with their palate over time to do whatever in the hell they want.
+
+[13:56] Yep. You know what I mean? Okay, so you're essentially freeze-drying, right? Yeah, but we do a bunch of other stuff too, which is there some sort of patent involved here, or is it a trade secret situation or what? It's more like a trade-secret situation.
+
+[14:09] Uh I will mention this, uh, not knowing a coffee is notoriously difficult to capture as a distillant. I don't know whether anyone out there listening knows that, but the uh aroma of coffee, very hard to capture and keep in, especially in a non-alcoholic situation, virtually impossible uh to get a decent thing. And I think it's because so much of uh so much of the coffee character is in the is in the a larger molecular weight crap that's left behind in the cups. So uh would you agree with that? Yeah, we've actually been uh like one of the interesting parts of this working on this is that I get to to geek out about stuff like this.
+
+[14:45] Yeah. And you can certainly capture some of the aroma, um, but it does not so yeah, you it's true. Like a big part of it is sort of a heavier molecular weights that you just cannot heavy enough that you cannot extract them, like uh distill them out of there. Which is really uh interesting. Yeah.
+
+[15:05] And sort of all the like the diminutions you get in the flavor. Alright, so I I uh actually this this is what we'll do. Why don't we taste this coffee and then we'll s we'll we'll talk about the coffee thing, and then after the break, we'll come back as though it's the beginning of the show, and I'll talk about the other stuff I've talked. Does that make sense? We'll just stay with coffee.
+
+[15:19] We're gonna talk stay with coffee. Stay with coffee. No, no. I have stuff I have to do. I have questions I have to get to, and I have also.
+
+[15:25] You'll stay around and uh Kylie, and we'll talk about it. Okay, so let's taste it. How long is it? How instant is instant? It's sudden, it's very sudden.
+
+[15:32] Oh yeah, now how now what's it sudden? By the way. You're really working with SpaceX? No. Oh that was Ariel Fool's joke.
+
+[15:40] These cups aren't warm. Single! Uh enemies of quality all around us. Feel that, Stus? Feel that?
+
+[15:48] No, I see it. Nastasia is affrightened of cups that have like grit on the outsides. Dirt grit? Yeah. No, I think it's the dishwasher.
+
+[15:57] Oh, you want me to lick it and find out? No. See whether it's do this. Why did you decide to start with espresso rather than drip coffee? Oh, what's up?
+
+[15:59] Good questions.com. It's a good question. Uh I mean it's literally only the the concentration really. Like there's nothing intrinsically great about espresso. Just the fact that what?
+
+[16:15] There's nothing intrinsically great about espresso? What? Just kidding. I mean Well, I mean, so drip coffee would have a concentration of about 1.5%, like 1.5 to 2. So it has 98% water.
+
+[16:26] Whereas espresso has roughly like 10% coffee solids and 90% water. So when you when you can only like basically dehydrate some amount of stuff uh makes a lot more sense to dehydrate espresso. Do you do you sell it in these tubes? Yes. How do they how many come in a two how many when you buy tubes?
+
+[16:44] You can you can choose. It's like between eight and twenty-four cups. Now have you caught up with production? Because apparently you can't buy this stuff, right? Yeah, we're uh like the biggest issue has been producing enough.
+
+[16:55] So we're now we're now really working on scaling up the production. Is that hot enough? That water? That should be good. It's not like boiling or you don't want to have it boiling.
+
+[17:02] I'm hanging you this and then I will get this. So we'll be scale up like caught up in production in by end of October latest, I think. I think Nastasia likes dumping the coffee out. Let me take a look at it. My eyes are really bad for reasons I'll discuss later.
+
+[17:15] Dave, do you want to take calls on this part of the show or wait till later? Yeah, let's take call, especially if they're related to the Wow, that was sudden. Can I use the sudden thing as a stirring device? Oh Nastasia, why don't you make yours first instead of handing one to Paul? Oh, you did.
+
+[17:31] So what I'm doing now, I just have uh brown powder in the bottom of the cup and pouring water and you get a cup of coffee. Smells like coffee. Do we uh do we have a collar related to coffee or anything else? Uh we have a collar. I don't know if it's related to coffee.
+
+[17:45] Let's take it while we're let's take caller, you're on the air. Ask me any question about coffee along with whatever other question you're gonna ask. Okay, I have no questions about coffee. I'm sorry. That's okay.
+
+[17:54] I don't drink coffee. Really? Wow. I like it in ice cream though. Well, uh you're the opposite of that.
+
+[18:00] You're the opposite of me. You know, exciting coffee is really awesome with ice cream. You just mix it and it becomes super, super awesome. You work for the company or something? Anyway, so let's go.
+
+[18:09] Go ahead with your question while we're making the last cup of uh sudden coffee or last two cups. Go ahead and Sir. All right, yeah. Uh you guys are uh you guys are a little blurry there, but um I'm gonna give you my my question here, which is uh is has uh has to do with ice cream. Uh by the way, this is Brian in New York.
+
+[18:26] Uh-huh. And uh uh my my question has to do with making basil or any kind of herb ice cream. Because I've seen a bunch of different recipes. I've tried a few. I can't figure out which is best.
+
+[18:38] Um say heat up the base uh and then blend in your uh your herbs. Others say just do a cold infusion with the base, some say do a cold infusion in milk. Um I'm wondering kind of what what the best uh best way to get the best flavor is um without uh getting any of those those off notes. Yeah, uh that's a good question. I can't I've no I can't remember if I've ever like how how soon do you have to uh how s how soon do you have to wait before you turn it and what's your churning what what are you using to churn it?
+
+[19:15] Uh I I mean I don't I don't I don't have any of the herbs on me right now. No, no, I mean I don't mean that, but like what kind of week what kind of machine are you using? I tried it, but are you doing Paco or is that what you're asking me how soon? No, no, no. What what kind of machine are you using?
+
+[19:28] Oh, what what kind of yeah, it's just one of those freeze in the bowl uh kind of machines. Right. Okay. So here are the issues, right? If you want it to not go nasty, once it's frozen, it the sad part is it probably will continue to go nasty because you're gonna be hyper contrate hi hyper concentrating the enzymes and whatever's left of the liquid phase.
+
+[19:50] But it'll also happen uh I don't know what'll win, whether the concentration will win or whether the reduced temperature is gonna win in terms of uh make making it stay uh uh nice. I think that the correct answer is not going to be um is not going to be blanching it because then you're not gonna get any of the kind of uh fresh uh flavors that you want. Uh if you were gonna use something like a Paco jet, I would just freeze the leaves whole and then Paco jet it down, but you're not gonna do that. Um you could uh do uh you you could blend the herbs in like a um a little bit of like high proof ethanol and then use the high proof ethanol blended herbs in with the base and that will it will mess with your freezing point depression slightly, but the the the um I believe that the um alcohol should help uh de you know denature the polyphenol oxidase enzymes and a little bit of ascorbic acid, but not enough to mess with your uh not enough to mess with your um milk. Milk would be would be helpful uh in that as well.
+
+[20:57] But I wish I had more personal experience working on it because basal ice cream is a thing you see, so people must know how to do it. Is anyone in the chat room, David, uh giving me anything? Uh one second, let me check. I'll see if anyone in the chat room chimes in with anything. Obviously, for just punch color without going brown, but it won't have fresh flavors, dried herbs.
+
+[21:14] I know dried mint will stay uh green because the drying process gets rid of the polyphenol oxidase enzymes. Uh nothing in chat, they're just talking about Starbucks instant coffee. Well, tell them to get on it and go to the chat room. And we'll I'll think about it. I'm sure someone will call in or tweet me and tell me what the correct answer is, and we'll read it out on the air next time if we can.
+
+[21:33] Okay, great. So uh definitely not blanching. You're anti-blanch. I'm not anti-Blanche unless I'm anti-Blanche if you want the flavor of fresh basil. For that, you should read uh Harold McGee's section on pesto in uh The Curious Cook, wherein he tries various different techniques for keeping uh pest pesto nice and green, one of which is blanching, which is deemed poor.
+
+[21:56] In terms of flavor. Yeah, I don't care about collar. I care most about flavor. Well, um yeah. But the problem is color and flavor are linked.
+
+[22:07] The brown notes, the brown color is linked with oxidized flavor in those situations. Brown notes. Brown notes, yeah. Brown town. Yeah, the uh which is where we were going with coffee.
+
+[22:20] Anyway, I'm sure someone will tweet me the answer and we'll and we'll figure it out. Speaking of singing uh Broadway musicals. Alright, thanks. Oh, thank we'll we'll get you the answer. Not this week, but we'll get you the answer.
+
+[22:29] So, like Broadway musicals, the entire morning this morning as I was getting ready with Sun Coffee, I was singing suddenly Seymour to myself. I don't know that, Dave. Suddenly C More. You know that song? Paul, do you know that he loves ours?
+
+[22:42] That he loves musicals. Do you know that he's like a musical? I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:48] Anyway, that's great. I forget her name, but Little Shop of Horrors with Rick Moranis. Disappointing he wasn't in the uh in the recent uh uh Ghostbusters reboot. Were you one of those anti-Ghostbusters reboot people, Paul? You strike me as as as could either be one or not.
+
+[23:03] I was not one. I was not anti. Not anti? Why were PC people so anti? Women.
+
+[23:08] I think it destroyed their childhoods. Women were anti? No, I think because women were playing the roles. Yes, the new Ghostbusters are all women, which destroys the childhoods of people who saw it growing up in which the original Ghostbusters were not women in some way. Is that is it is that actual truth?
+
+[23:27] Yes, that's what I've heard. Yes, Dave. Thank God Paul's here because you'd be like, I don't believe you. I didn't say that. I just didn't know I didn't know the uh the answer.
+
+[23:38] Well, every single living Ghostbuster was in that movie, with the exception of Rick Moranis, who was like known misogynist. Rick Moranis? Mm-hmm. For reals? Mm-hmm.
+
+[23:47] Paul. Was he not in the movie because of the women in the movie? Oh, that's why? I thought you had some actual information about Rick Moranis. You're like, he wasn't in the movie, therefore he hates women.
+
+[23:58] That's the problem, people working with Nastasi. You never know whether she is just like saying something that is actually backed up with information, or whether she's just blowing smoke up your You never know. Never know. Alright, so let's talk about this. What do you think, uh Coffee Man?
+
+[24:10] I like it. Well, Nastasia likes it, but that is not a vote of confidence, my friend. Sounds like it's got a lot more body than I would expect from an instant coffee. Why is that? I think it's uh it's a variety of things.
+
+[24:27] The I think ideal flavor balance we find is a little higher concentration than for a regular filter coffee. So instead of like 1.5 1.5, it's closer to two. Yeah, which is gives you a little more solids. But I think it's also so originally I thought that it would be just like the same coffee that we use, but not so interesting version of it. And now I think it's more of uh just a different kind of representation or different brewing method in a way.
+
+[24:53] So you lose some of the acidity through the purse. Yeah, it's not a very acidic hit. It's also not very bitter. It's not very bitter, yeah. So we I mean we what we what we try to do is get a coffee that's really sweet, is really balanced and like nicely sort of big bodied and low acidity and low bitterness.
+
+[25:09] But what's interesting is it it almost tastes like an espresso profile, but as a drip b as a drip water balance. Right. And mm the cool thing is that you can also drink it uh with higher concentration, like espresso style, if that's how you like it. Can you make us a 10% one? Sure.
+
+[25:27] Heat up the water again, though. Um what was the name of the of the actress? She was so awesome in Little Trap of Horse. In the movie? Yeah, she was so awesome.
+
+[25:38] I don't remember the movie. I liked the theatrical version. Well, of course you do. You, you know, born-raised New Yorker, can you wean that the theater? Okay, uh, so uh so Nastasia likes it, which as I say is not by the way, Nastassi's brother, so like it can be on the air.
+
+[25:55] He could pull up a mic. I see uh him and his fiance are sitting there in the wing just staring in through the glass. It's so it's so weird. Your whole family lurkers, Nastasia, lurkers. So when do you think you're gonna be uh up and running with production?
+
+[26:07] We're I mean, we're like all hands on deck working on it, uh, where it's getting a better all the time, and by early October we should be at sort of a much, much better point. David, you a coffee man? Love coffee. Well, why didn't he go? Why didn't you get a cup and try this stuff?
+
+[26:24] Because I gotta make the wheels turn here. Oh, now you have wheels in the sky keep on turning going through my head. All right. By the way, don't know where I'm gonna be tomorrow. By the way, Dave, it's uh Ellen Green.
+
+[26:34] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, okay. So uh you want to do a break and then come back with your let's do a break.
+
+[26:42] Yeah, I'll get to come back. We'll come back. Yeah, yeah. Dave will get us some coffee. Nastasia's brother will come in, and we'll uh we'll pretend like the show is starting again with uh with whole new whole new set of like questions and answers.
+
+[26:53] Okay. Coming back with cookie issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak.
+
+[27:18] And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[27:51] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we're back. What's up, Stuz? Alright.
+
+[28:22] Over the break we tasted some espresso strength uh sudden coffee. It was espresso strength. Obviously, no crema, not an emulsion. You know what you need to sell is you need to sell a uh little um like a frothing device so you can be like you could do it espresso strength and then go and like froth some air into it. Right.
+
+[28:40] What do you think you don't like that idea? No, personally not a crema fan. Oh, in general? No, but why do you not like crema? Because you've tasted it separately and it's different constituent, because it's coming out mainly at a other part of the extraction, right?
+
+[28:51] Is it you don't like what is it you don't like about it? It's really bitter. Well, it is, but is that because of what is that because that it is frothed, or is that because of when it's happening during the shop? Have you actually tried frothing your product? And does it taste bitter?
+
+[29:07] So, what I think about a crema is the crema is basically the foam where you have basically like oils, proteins, and just like physical, like unsoluble parts of the coffee bean. And I think it's those mainly those kind of uh bitter, unsoluble parts of the bean that are just so fine that they go through the metals, metal filter that make it more bitter. Right, but but here hear me out here. If you're looking at a uh if you're looking at like uh machine profile on crema, right? The the way that it used to be said was that lever machines produce a lot less crema but have a lot better, well, they have a lot some people like the flavor profile of lever machines better, and the reason is is because they're pushing less water through at the end because the pressure is dropping as the spring goes down, right?
+
+[29:45] As a spring. Right. So you're getting less crema on that because you're pulling out less at the end. At the end is when that like last floating stuff and you're extracting that stuff out, right? And that's why the crema is bitter, because that's where it's coming from.
+
+[29:58] Whereas we all know that espresso has higher foaming capacity than regular coffee when you're making regular drinks with it. So merely the fact that there is foam on top isn't necessarily mean that that foam is bitter. It's where the foam is coming from in an actual regular produced espresso shot, right? Or could be. I actually haven't tried just like foaming the whole thing.
+
+[30:23] But it I like I've tried shaking it and it doesn't sort of produce like if you try making a frappe out of it, it doesn't like shake or like foam quite as like it doesn't foam the same way as Nescafe. Again, a Nescafe, like you lost me, yeah. But like, but like in other words, like if I was to take this product, Nastasi's like, don't rank on my stuff. Don't rank on my garbage. Uh like, but if you were to take uh if you were to take an espresso shot, right, let it cool in a cup, take you know, some sudden coffee to the same uh the same extraction density, right?
+
+[30:56] And then you were to add milk and shake with ice, would the bever would the regular espresso foam appreciably better on the shake? Probably would. But that's also so what we do if we brew the coffee, we uh you know what you do with filtrate, which uh literally reduces the amount of crema and removes some of those undissolved solids that personally I don't enjoy in the coffee and I like we want to have removed. You could sell those to Dave. Right.
+
+[31:23] Look, well no, I actually like lever shots best. Like, like when I've had side by side, same barista, same beans, uh same grinder, like same espresso machine corporation. Yeah. Lever uh that's actually when I say when I've had, it was one time. It was Vittorio Arduino, I had one of their uh levers versus their not, and their lever machine.
+
+[31:44] I was like, oh my god, I love this shot. Have you had pressure profiled? Yes. We could talk about that at the end of the show. We'll talk about the coffee.
+
+[31:53] Uh we'll talk about the coffee. You know that I built my own pressure profiler like years ago with uh with I I shunted, I shunted out my procon pump with a uh with a ball valve and was able to profile pressure, but it sucked because I had to reach underneath my counter and then put my head up to look at the gauge to see where I was going. But I could I could dial between a hundred percent bypass, so zero pressure, and then all the way up to um nine bar, and then just go anywhere in between. But it was it's real touchy, like throttling pressure with a ball valve like that is touchy because it's not linear. Anyways, it tastes great.
+
+[32:29] Like one out of eight shots, I was able to get like a pretty smooth ramp from you know, like uh like full spring pressure, which it's been a while, but it's like it was like a hundred and like the right when the spring releases is like a hundred and I think 50 PS, I don't know what in bar, and then it goes down to well below, or maybe less, maybe eight and a half bar. I don't know. Anyway, but it goes down to well below a normal thing at the end of the shot because obviously it goes down. So I I was able to get decent shots that way. It was just so much of a pain in the butt.
+
+[32:58] And then I was gonna try to build one with a servo that would do it, but then eventually I didn't do it for many years, and eventually it became like a thing. But now a lot of people, like I was talking to the La Marzoco people uh yesterday, in fact, and those guys were like, people are so worried about all these variables, they don't even control like the most important thing, which is the dose. They don't even control the dose. And so they're like, all this pressure profile stuff, whatever, great. He's like, but the fact of the matter is that now temperature profile, everyone's got temperature profiles going where like Ranchillio's new machine, they can do a temperature profile.
+
+[33:28] In fact, one of their temperature profiles was they start it colder in the beginning and end hotter, which is the weirdest thing ever, because you're putting like intentionally producing a tart shot, right? So you start with your extraction at a low temperature, you're sucking out like a very acidic shot, which like the only people I know who make like yeah, it's not it's like a purposely acidic shot, but I guess some people like it, right? Kylie, what do you what do you say about this? You were at the show, you saw this machine, right? Oh yeah.
+
+[33:54] Um I mean I think it doesn't make any sense. I don't really believe in the temperature profiling. Uh I mean it does make sense in the sense that if you have a colder coffee in the beginning, you might like absorb more energy and you might might want to have a higher temperature in the beginning, and then basically like ramp down. Yeah, but I wouldn't ramping ramping doesn't make any sense to me. Like it's not gonna it's a different thing than having like a sour or acidic, and that's only gonna make it like sour, like very unpleasantly like tasting a citrus.
+
+[34:23] Right, it's not gonna it's not gonna make it like winy or more Kenyan tasting. Definitely not. Yeah. And I do you like that crap in espresso, by the way? Do you like those like African acidic whiny notes and espresso shots or no?
+
+[34:34] I guess not. I'm tasting your coffee, so I guess not. Right. Well, so the thing is that so decent Ethiopian coffee called Bocasso, and it is a lot more acidic in the beginning. And we're I mean we're still very early on.
+
+[34:46] We're working on preserving more of that acidity through the process. Uh but we start with something that's kind of more acidic. Um so we have oh, because it gets blunted by the process. Yeah. So if you taste this against any other instant coffee, it's actually a lot more acidic than anything else, but it does not taste that acidic compared to like a drip coffee.
+
+[35:03] Right, right, right, right, right. And I mean, personally I prefer more uh I was kind of very sort of acidic profile, but now I prefer more like just a bit more balanced, sweeter approach. Alright, so since you're an espresso guy, where are we? This is also something I was discussing with a lot more so people. I thought we were gonna talk about this after.
+
+[35:18] Uh well one more second. I can't stop I can't stop, I can't stop myself. Okay, gee geez, okay. So where are we in the uh where are we in the espresso volume wars? Are we coming back up to normal shot volumes or are we still with these like skim cup crazinesses?
+
+[35:33] I think we're coming back to like normal volumes, like one to two ratios, like one part coffee grounds to like two parts of coffee in the cup. So w we would use something like uh 20 gram dose of gram coffee and like 40 grams of coffee in the cup. In like 2001, like people were like, I'm using 16 grams, and they're pulling like what would now be like a long shot, and now and then like it's gone, but you're she's coming somewhere in between, huh? Yeah, well, I mean, so like uh 10 years ago when I started in coffee, it was like super ristretto, so like using the same like one to one, like using a ton of coffee and then having therapy in the cup. Yeah, like like oh six, oh seven, stuff like that.
+
+[36:13] It was like it was literally, yeah, they were filling triple baskets, and then like, you know, I was like, where where's the where's the coffee? Right. You know what I mean? It's like w which I mean I think is really bad. Like what the most important thing in coffee is sort of the extraction yield, which is how much stuff you extract out of the grounds.
+
+[36:31] And the more water you use, the higher extraction yield you can get, because you have the same amount of coffee but more water to do the job. Um so at some point, like a couple years ago it went to the extreme, like people using 20 grams of coffee and like 60 grams at a cup. Which in some ways can be very enjoyable. It's a it's a different type of a coffee. Um, but I think now it's it's it's somewhere around like the the sort of closer to regular.
+
+[36:58] Um yeah, I mean in my mind I still make it more like you would have gotten in 2001, because I guess I don't know, that's what I like, but whatever. That's me. Okay, now hold on. Now off coffee for a minute and we can go back and coffee later. Dave, what happened to your face?
+
+[37:13] Well, okay, I I got many things. Before we talk about what happened in my face, uh should I do the face first? No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do the face first. Let's uh let's let's take a no let's take a minute. Uh really uh sad news.
+
+[37:26] Um Friday, uh Dorothy Can Hamilton, the founder of the French Culinary Uh Institute, now the International Culinary Center, uh died in a car accident in her beloved Nova Scotia. Uh and I don't really know the particulars of it yet. I don't know because uh, you know, they they just publicly announced it, I think, on um Sunday night, I think, or something like that, right, Nastasia? Um so sh, you know, Dorothy uh she was the only person in the car, uh as far as I know, it's the only person killed in the car. She um founded the French culinary in like 1984, right?
+
+[38:07] Uh it's around the same year actually that on food and and cooking came out, and you know, she was kind of the force behind uh a lot of what was good about culinary education in the United States for many, many years. Uh she uh gave me my first real job in the in the food world, uh, you know, when I was the director of culinary technology there for years um with Nastasia. Uh and uh yeah, so you know it's not she was not sick, it was not nothing. It was very terrible, terrible news. Uh and my heart goes out to um to her family and to the whole community at the ICC um yeah it's terrible news so anyway yeah so I don't know we should have done that right before the break I guess because now I don't want to talk about anything yeah for a minute but yeah we should have we should have or we should uh we uh and I I never handled anything well because I'm a moron but um yeah a lot of people a lot of people have gone through that school to affect a lot of people most recently she did the um she did the uh expo at Milan the food expo at Milan uh so just you know stayed uh super in it super active you know one of the things I was there she wrested control away from investors and got the school back and yeah she was just uh you know she was uh she was a force to be reckoned with Dorothy anyway terrible terrible so on to uh on to how do you transition from that on to what I was doing uh last week I was in uh Catalonia last week uh giving a talk at uh Alisia the Alicia Foundation you familiar with this yes Paul you familiar with this Nastasia Alicia is a cooking foundation I think it was founded by uh Farron and the El Bully people or it's founded by the Catalan government and he uh he helped out with it but it's in the middle of this town uh it's near a town called Navarklas because I can't pronounce the other one the other town is something literally like fruity bags it's like fruity bags but it's in it's in Catalan so I don't even know how it's like fui de baj or something like this with fruity bags.
+
+[40:17] Fruity bags. And it's in and I was there, and actually, interestingly, I was doing a demo for a bunch of uh uh olfactory scientists, and I was using the actual centrifuge that was the first one that Ferran had used. And by the way, not nearly as good as the one that we used to use at the French culinary boomstas. Yeah, uh, yeah. Now the flip side is he got his new.
+
+[40:40] So, you know, he didn't have to clean all the rabies out of it like we did. Right. Yeah, it wasn't sprayed with like CSI juice like ours was. But the uh also I used the actual rotary evaporator that uh that the Rokas used to do their oyster uh distillate way back in the day. Uh no comment.
+
+[41:01] No comment. It turns out that rotary evaporators need quite a bit of maintenance to have them uh work properly, and it wasn't set up like it was a pain. So like literally, I and they know it, like they're like, you know, we don't they they don't really do that kind of work anymore at Elisi, but they have all of the the stuff left over, so I was like, okay, so I went to go use it because I was doing and actually this fits into a question. There was someone who asked about not sweet honey a week ago. Uh and uh I commented that I I can't remember whether I had done a honey distillate, but when I went there, I was supposed to mess with uh olfaction, right?
+
+[41:31] And when I used gumemic acid, and gumnemic acid is the uh is the material that knocks out your sense of sweetness for about half hour, and Nastasi's done it, you've done it right, Paul with me. I never have. You never have? Tastes terrible, tastes like it tastes like like the bottom of a rodent cage, it's awful. And but you swirl it around and then for like half hour uh or more sometimes, you can't taste anything sweet.
+
+[41:53] So white sugar tastes like sand, uh ever it's just it just knocks out everything, it's completely unpleasant. But it's we use it to teach um kind of what sugar does to texture, so you can just remove the sensation of sweetness. And it knocks out artificial sweeteners, it knocks out the effect of miraculin, so you know, it ruins that party too. It knocks out brown sugar doesn't taste uh sweet. Things that smell sweet to you, but but like candies, things that you associate with sweetness uh don't taste sweet at all.
+
+[42:24] What is brown sugar taste like? Sand with a little bit of a butterscotchy hit, uh but the uh melting sand. But honey still tastes sweet. And so I distilled honey there and served them honey distillate with none of the sugar, and they all agreed it tasted sweet. So there's something about honey that we perceive as sweet that's not that's old fashioned based, does not have anything to do with the sweet receptors because your sweet receptors are totally wiped out by uh genemic acid.
+
+[42:52] Fantastic. So that's going back to the question that Andrew asked uh last week. So anyway, so while I was there, I also did some oldies but goodies. Uh I used to do, I did a thing years and years ago uh called the cheese course where I would take wines, I would take like three sweet wines, I would take off the brandy in a rotary evaporator, and then reduce them down to about 60 or 70 bricks so that they were like a syrup that had never been heated, and then serve them both with uh cheeses and then an array of like, you know, array of toppings. Uh and uh so anyway, so I did one of those cheese courses, so I had to uh evaporate the stuff down, and the rotary evaporator was a little bit leaky, so I couldn't get the stuff that down.
+
+[43:28] But they had a vacuum oven, so I ripped the vacuum oven apart and like put a cold trap, built a cold trap on the output of the vacuum oven because it had a really good vacuum pump, then stuck the stuff in a vacuum bag and taped it to the interior of the cylinder of the vacuum oven and was able to get all of my product down to 70 bricks in the vacuum oven. And I was like, I had to go to a lunch. When the lunch was over, I had to go get the stuff out of the vacuum oven. Now all of Alicia is like all this glass. It's all glass everywhere.
+
+[43:55] Glass, walls, glass doors, just gl freaking glass everywhere. And like I guess for like uh HVAC reasons, they staggered the door. So you have to go in one, and then you have to turn and go in another, and then the kitchen's there, but the kitchen's all glass, all glass, and so like this thing. I I don't know, I thought it was a freaking door. And and uh and when I walk, I walk fast, especially when I'm going to get something.
+
+[44:20] I don't run because you don't run in the kitchen, right? You walk fast. I walk fast and boom, right into the glass, like right into the glass, like right on the point of my forehead. Because when I walk, I walk with my head slightly down and slightly turned to one side. It's my kind of thinking mode.
+
+[44:34] Styles, you've seen that a million times, right? Slightly down and slightly to one side, and so I hit right above my left eyebrow, like like boom. I didn't pass out, but I I did one of those, like I did one of those like sumo squats down, and it was and like just stayed there for like frozen, like in like uh like a like you know, like you can't see because you're on a radio, but like one of these. It does look like a sort of thing. I've never seen you from this angle before.
+
+[45:02] It has a very low center of balance. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you know, you get down because you know, it's like the horse stance in karate, like you know, like a hurricane's map space will blow you down, you know what I mean? It's like you know, if you want stable, you go down, you go wide, and you plant like this, you know what I mean? Anywho, so I was blind not to actually hit the floor when that happens.
+
+[45:21] Yeah, because if you hit the floor, that's just amateur hour, you know what I mean? But then so I'm there and I'm squatting down, and this has never happened to me before. I was like, I could feel my head inflating. Like that's how fast the edema was building up in my head, and so I was like, oh man. And so I was also staring down on the ground, waiting to see if I see the drip, drip, drip of blood.
+
+[45:45] No blood, because the glass, so smooth. Glass, so smooth. I tore a little bit, so there was a little bit of blood later. But it inflated, you saw the original pictures, Nastasia. It was like I had embedded a grapefruit under, not grapefruit, orange, under my under my eye socket.
+
+[46:01] And then the next day it was kind of totally glued shut. But the entire conference heard it. So even the guy giving a talk at the time, like a room and a half away, was like, oh man. What was that? You know what I mean?
+
+[46:16] And like, and like the people standing near me were just like, oh. You know what I mean? You know that look that you have when you don't really know what's gonna happen. And when I went to the hospital, it turns out uh Catalonian uh medical care, vastly more efficient than US medical care. Vastly more efficient.
+
+[46:33] I was in and out of that ER in like an hour and ten minutes, like on the dot. Uh and uh we you know we ended up all laughing because I didn't break any bones and uh anything. And uh I was lucky I didn't hit my nose. I'd just been to a talk the day before where the guy mentioned that if you break the your nose in the wrong way, it shears all the nerves from your old from your olfactory nerves into your skull, and then you lose your sense of smell. So I was like, oh, it's not my nose.
+
+[46:57] And uh so I'm there, and the guy, I have like I have uh Chef Jamey, the chef from Alicia, who has brought me to the emergency room doing the translating, and he says, The doctor says there is no cure for loss of dignity. And so then he then like the first day when I went back, right? I just had my kind of like elephant man face rocking it, you know what I mean? And people were just like not eating as much as they should have been eating, and like, you know, like you know you again, this is radio, but this look across the table from me. So then I started wearing sunglasses, and the next day, even though I literally looked worse with this big giant pussy weeping like eye blob, people were like, you look so much better today.
+
+[47:39] So I was like, it turns out when you mess your face up, people like it when you wear sunglasses. That's just the truth. That's why blind people wear sunglasses. I don't know. Maybe.
+
+[47:49] Anyway, so uh so that so uh that's what uh that's what happened to me. Okay. Um anything I feel like other things have happened. I feel like we've had oh, hey Paul, Paul asked me before, because uh Paul also, did you ever end up giving your brevel induction unit back? Or did I told you I gave it back?
+
+[48:04] Why the hell would you do that? I told him that you were gonna steal that. Nope. Anyway, conscience weight on me. I gave it back.
+
+[48:10] For real. Alright. Oh, by the way, Paul, for those of you that don't know, Paul is like Mr. Drone. Would you say your Mr.
+
+[48:16] Drone, or more like Captain Drone or like Admiral Drone? Are you more of a naval drone? Mr. Drone Jr. Mr.
+
+[48:21] Drone Jr. He has like a collection of drones. He could he could take over a small village with his drones. I have several drones. So I uh are you on board with Dave's uh I haven't told him I'm about to tell him.
+
+[48:32] Really? My worst, my meanest idea of all time? Yep. So I'm at I'm at Governor's Island a couple weeks ago, and I see this kid flying a kite. Right?
+
+[48:42] Now, is there anything more oldie timey, awesome America everyone dreams that their kid is gonna do running in a field with the grass, flying a kite, right? And I was like, what if you just sharpened the props on a drone and you were on the other side of a hill and you're just like and just cut the kite. Just cut the kite. Wouldn't that be the worst thing ever? That would be the worst thing ever.
+
+[49:05] Worst thing ever. Let's do it. No, I can't, but like the thing is, is like it's the kind of thing that you would want to do so you could see the look on the kid's face and then press a button and rewind it and never have it happen to the kid. Because you don't actually want the kid to like lose their kite. And Nastash was like, the kid's flying the kite because his dad is making him fry the freaking kite.
+
+[49:22] Kid doesn't want to fly the freaking kite. Right? Yeah, that's true. Nastasia. Do you not like flying kite, Nastasia?
+
+[49:29] Not really. Do you? Shared a bit of problems with tangling kites. Oh, you're a kite tangler, huh? Were you trying to do those stunt kites?
+
+[49:37] Stunk kites don't work. Stunk kites are sad. Why are stunk kites sad? You need a friend to do stunk kites, don't you? Oh, and neither of us had those growing up.
+
+[49:47] Both Nastasi and I finally, after all these years, we've shared a moment. This is the first time we have ever shared a moment together for any reason. So on uh on uh back to the uh induction burner, I found another good use for uh accurate induction burners. Ready for it? Yeah.
+
+[50:03] Rue. Gumbo. Gumbo roux, dark roux. Because like otherwise, you know, like you have Alton Brown, but you're like, Can you put it in the oven for like an hour? Who wants to do that?
+
+[50:11] If you have an accurate induction, you can just make a roux right on the thing. Like stir it once every never. It doesn't ever burn. What do you think? Good application, Paul?
+
+[50:19] Sounds very good. Do you like rue? Do you like gumbo? I love roo. You don't like gumbo?
+
+[50:23] I love gumbo. Okay. I was about to lose it for a minute. I was like, what? Okay.
+
+[50:28] So uh have like three minutes. Okay. Dave, what's happening with your bar? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, good one, Paul.
+
+[50:37] So uh this has turned into like a very different cooking issues than normal. So on October 15th. We're here today with Dave. Yeah. Uh on October 15th, uh, we'll be we'll be uh Booker Index, the current Booker Index Bar's last uh service.
+
+[50:53] So Sombar is gonna close uh temporarily and they're gonna remodel and when they're done remodeling, they will have taken the Booker Index space and absorbed it, job of the Hut style into the renovated Sambar, so there will be no place for us. Uh it's it's sad because there was nothing wrong with the bar. The bar worked fine. You know what I mean? Like uh, but we're gonna we're hopefully gonna reopen soon.
+
+[51:18] Uh I have no date uh as yet planned because it's all part of negotiations that are ongoing that I can't really discuss. But there's I'm I definitely plan on reopening uh reopening a Booker Index as soon as uh I can because I enjoyed I enjoyed it. Bigger and better? Uh I was I would aim for smaller and worse, but uh it's always kind of my goal is like smaller and worse. But you know, if I have to go bigger and better, like if smaller and worse is not an option, then I yeah, I'm bigger and better.
+
+[51:49] But um You should trademark that while you can. Smaller and worse. Yeah. If the people around me are any indication, slow and stupid wins the race. Race to the bottom.
+
+[52:02] Yeah, because it's like uh honestly, like like that whole hair and tortoise thing is such garbage, right? Like, first of all, like fast and steady wins the freaking race. Dave fast and steady. You got like two minutes for this rant, by the way. All right, well, no, I'm not uh I'm not even gonna get into it.
+
+[52:14] It's like I hate all of those, all of those things like uh the airport stuff. Which airport stuff? Just going through customs. What's the deal with airport food? Oh oh no, well, I had really good I was so kind of I you know I had no idea because I hadn't heard about Dorothy, so I wasn't like depressed about that at that point.
+
+[52:30] But like my eye was inflated like a freaking baseball. I have to fly in cattle class back from the thing. So I'm in the airport and I see this like awesome like Hamon like in the thing, and normally I'm like, I can't take that back to the to the US. I'm like, wait, I'm just gonna buy some really expensive freaking ham and I'm gonna eat it on the freaking plane. All by yourself.
+
+[52:44] All by myself. Now you have another song going through my head. That's Daz's favorite. You like that when you I heard you sing it and you're I heard it like vaguely. Anyway, so yeah, so I bought I bought that, and the lady was like, You can't take this back to the US.
+
+[53:00] And I'm like, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna eat it. And she was like, oh, nice. I didn't say it. I said, you know, it was like but it go mid. And then I walked out.
+
+[53:07] You know what I mean? I could have my sunglasses on. All right, hold on, hold on. So uh one minute, Dave. Oh my god, wait.
+
+[53:13] So we had a question on uh rice, and I don't have time to get to Quinn's question on rice. Um Quinn asked me about he was uh he or she, I don't know. What do you think? I thought it was she. She.
+
+[53:24] So she was cooking rice and uh had a problem where uh the rice at the bottom of the pot was mushy compared to the rice at the top, rice at the top. So I want to answer your question, and I had about 10 or 15 minutes of rice, uh rice information to like start spewing in a ramp, but I don't have the time to do it. So what I want from you, I'll do I'll spew that stuff, including the awesome uh article I read, the impact of pre-soaking on the flavor of cooked rice by E. T. Champagne, best author name ever, E.
+
+[53:52] T. Champagne, writing about the flavor. And interestingly, the answer is that pre-soaking rice, although we do it, seemed to have a negative flavor impact according to the this document. So you should read that. Another document uh I perused for you was the formation of cracks uh in rice during wetting.
+
+[54:06] But I need some more information from you, Quinn. What kind of rice are you cooking? For instance, uh I want to know exactly what kind. So some rice is harder to cook uh without the bottom going mushy than others, like certain like jasmine rices. I need to know what kind of rice you're cooking, and I need to know what quantities you're cooking, because you might just need to move to a wider pan, because a lot of times when rice is mushy on the bottom and not on the top, the issue is that your depth of rice is too high for the cooking method that you've uh employed.
+
+[54:30] So send me back some more information on what kind of rice you're doing, what quantities, what size pot, and we'll tackle your question next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[55:09] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere, living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first step father.
+
+[0:32] Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a zero dollar copay.
+
+[0:46] No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code Space80 at Talkspace.com. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps.
+
+[1:05] Order now at Chefsteps.com slash J O U L E. Hello, everybody. This is Jarobi from a tribe called Quest slash Eats Rhymes in Life. And you're here listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:27] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like 12 to like 1245 or one. Uh Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Sus? Good.
+
+[1:41] Good. Uh got uh Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? Good. Yeah.
+
+[1:45] And special guest today. We have Ariel Johnson from formerly of where do you go originally? You went to Harvard origin NYU originally. NYU originally. NYU originally, where you knew I met you first there, right?
+
+[1:56] When you were with Kent Kirschman. Yeah, that was like like nine years ago. Right. And then you then you moved on to UC Davis, where you did your uh your doctoral work on cocktail bitters. Yes, among fermentations and flavor chemistry.
+
+[2:08] Yeah. Cocktail bitters. And stole uh and stole me some data for or did stole me some time on her GC mass spec machine to take a look at what the Sears all does to meat, which was very helpful. Then uh did a stint at uh MAD over there in uh Nomaville in the in the Denmark, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[2:24] Yeah. Recently got back from that and is now uh some sort of like what do they call it? Like what's the title over there at the MIT? Oh, a uh a director's fellow at the media lab. Right, but like more of the quantitative side of the media lab, right?
+
+[2:39] Yeah, the the like science-you know, so not not the side where you where you say that my refrigerator is gonna call me on a Thursday and take me to the movies on a Friday and then pick up lettuce for me on a on a Monday. I mean, only if we're like trying to optimize the flavor of that lettuce as well. Are they still doing that? Oh yeah. Why isn't that happened already?
+
+[2:58] Like why can't why why can't my refrigerator ask me out on a date or babysit my kids for me and then get me lettuce? Like, wasn't that the dream? I mean, I think that was the dream, but like I mean some of what you're seeing now with like like nests and other of these like interesting. The nest keeps my house warm or cold, depending. Yeah, but like if the if the like database goes offline, then you're then you're gonna be able to do that.
+
+[3:21] Well, no, it reverse a normal thermostat. It reverse to a normal thermostat then. Yeah. So so I think I think you could have a talking refrigerator, but maybe then you're applying more things to the back end right now. Nastasia, do you want your refrigerator to talk to you?
+
+[3:32] I would just like a full-size fridge. That's all I want right now. Wow. You see, you know what I love about Nastasia? Small baby steps.
+
+[3:38] Well, because why solve a like social problem with a technological solution? Well, I mean, certain technological. Yeah, but that looks like it looks strange, right? Lasering your face? Do you know anyone that's done that, Nastasia?
+
+[4:02] Not face. Ooh, you know people that have lasered their down theres? Yeah. Yeah, that's like a normal. Yeah.
+
+[4:08] Remember, I grew up in the 70s. Like I'm the, you know, the last of a the last of a generation. So you would like a face laser that perfectly optimizes like two-day stubble amounts of scruff? I wouldn't mind mean like, look, once you're past the point of of trying to have any sort of like I can grow hair, therefore I'm manly, or I need to get into a club uh and I'm not 21, which, you know, by the way, I couldn't when I was, you know, when I was at you know, 20, nine, 18, 19, 20, I could not grow facial hair like I can now, and so therefore, you know, it was no use to me then, and now it's of no use to me anymore. I'd just as soon go smooth faced.
+
+[4:46] I mean, not like baby. I don't want b a baby face, but like, I don't know. What do you guys think? Are you pro like what's your stubble feeling? Like for me, it's just laziness.
+
+[4:57] How do you how do you like I have stubble on my legs? What do you feel about dudes with stubble? Do you would you prefer a totally smooth face or not? Don't care. I don't really have a strong preference.
+
+[5:07] Anyway, that's a technological solution that if it was it's it would be weird though for me to go laser my face. I mean, it wouldn't be the weirdest thing you've ever done by a long shot. No, it would not be the weirdest thing I've ever done, but it would be like a weird thing. But if it was simple, you know? I don't know.
+
+[5:22] Like a like a pill that you take? Like if my refrigerator could shave for me. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
+
+[5:27] So what's the dumbest thing? Oh, you can't say this, you can't. So, like, what about like what are the what's the current MIT Media Lab's thoughts on uh 3D printing and food? You know how I feel about it. Um one's actually brought it up to me there.
+
+[5:41] So so far we've dodged that bullet. I I am not a fan of 3D printing and food. I think it's kind of senseless. Yeah, yeah, but don't people up there love that kind of stuff? They love 3D printing for like prototyping.
+
+[5:53] But who doesn't? That's just a good idea. There's enough like vending machines in the Media Lab that they have not yet that I've seen tried to 3D print their food as well. Are they the kind of people that still like try to like run all the vending machines from their Twitter account? Like, what's it like over there?
+
+[6:09] Well, there's this amazing uh like Slack connected webcam called the food cam. So if you have like leftover food, you put it in a particular place and hit a button, and then the entire lab gets a blast with a photo of that food. But why would they do that? For free food. Oh, I see.
+
+[6:26] Grad students do. Do you know who would love that? Nastasia is the queen of please take my half-eaten food. Does that mean that this is the this is ideal for that? You just put it in a place and then someone gets a notification and comes and gets it.
+
+[6:40] Nastasia, you should get you should go go work there. Mm-hmm. Like it like if Nastasia, I've seen Nastasia on more than four occasions attempt to give mangled sandwiches to homeless people. She's always failed. Nobody turns out, nobody wants a mangled sandwich.
+
+[6:54] It just goes to show Nastasia how hard up the MIT media grad students are. Yeah. If they're willing to pound a half-mangled sandwich with like literally, like, you know how when you pick up a sandwich that's mushy and you get those fingerprints in the half that you have from trying to squish it and then trying to control it so that the stuff doesn't slip out of the back while you're eating in the front? If you can pick up somebody's sandwich that that has happened to and start eating it, like that's a new level. Well, I think I think I think with the with the food cam, it becomes this sort of like competitive thing of like how many, how much of my calories, like what percentage can I get just from free food?
+
+[7:32] See, so it's becomes like a point of pride that you don't pay for anything, you just eat what is there. But these are people in MIT, right? Yeah, these are like students, grad students, engineers. My point is is that they should have like they they have apparently the brains. They shouldn't be like Nastasi and I trying to get like the cheapest, freest stuff.
+
+[7:50] They should just like become the new overlords of the tech world instead with that energy. Well, I think that comes a little later for I thought everyone I thought all the overlords of the tech industry were like 20, like 25. I don't know. What do I know? Old man.
+
+[8:05] Old man blues. All right. Um, and they they save time becoming that way by eating free food, I think might be their rationale. They literally think it's faster to go on their phone, find food, go to where the food is, consume the food, tweet to their buddies that they ate the re food rather than just hit send me a freaking pizza. Well, and it's free.
+
+[8:29] I don't know. I'm just saying I I feel that the youth is wasted on the dumb. I think is where it is. It doesn't make sense to me. Have you eaten this free food?
+
+[8:39] I've eaten donuts from the food camp. Donuts not donut. A donut is like Nastasia, I would eat a donut that was left over in a box of donuts. That's not the same thing. Would you eat the half-eaten donut?
+
+[8:51] No. No. Are people kind? Do they break the food in half or do they slice it or do they mangle it in? No, it's uh I I'm not sure.
+
+[8:58] It sounds like we'll have to have an experiment where we put out food of different different mangles? Different degrees of manglitude and keep track of how much of it gets taken and how long it takes for each piece to get taken. Right. I think the best would be like if there's other types of food particles near it, and a fork stuck in it. Well, I mean, also bear in mind there's a lot of like 20-year-old dudes around, so the the like daring each other to eat something gross factor can't be discounted.
+
+[9:29] Are people over there just high all the time? Not that I've seen, but um anyway. All right. So uh a thank you out to Weepop Soupy Pot, who uh, you know, uh one of the founders of the Nomiku, uh Jack Shram. Did I already say this last week?
+
+[9:43] Jack Shram, uh our uh head bartender. Although, by the way, speaking of head bartender, as I said, Booker Index's last day of business in the current incarnation will be on October the 15th, so uh of 2016. So you should go uh check it out if you want to get your Booker Index style drinks on prior to October 15th, because uh no date has yet been announced when we will open another one. Yeah. Yeah, anyway.
+
+[10:04] So Jack Shram, our head bartender, uh, was in Thailand, saw uh Weepop, uh one of the founders and creators of the Nomiku, which did not win best new device or best technology thing at the Taste Talk Awards, but he's in good losing company because the Museum of Food and Drink we also lost yesterday. Uh the CIA, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I mean the CIA, not the not, you know, the the the Culinary Institute of the Arts, they um they're so much bigger and like older than we are. So it's like even like to be in the category is like that's great, but I mean how the heck are we gonna beat out the CIA for best like food cultural institution? Like, how the hell are we gonna do that? You know what I mean?
+
+[10:42] Does that make any sense? No. Makes no sense. Or Southern Foodways Alliance was in there. Oh guess anyway.
+
+[10:47] So Weepop, like, you know, uh, for those of you that know me a long time personally, because I don't think I talk about it on the air, I have this obsession with cleared and stained uh animals, you know what that is? Yeah, so like for those of you that don't know what you do is people also call it something stupid, like diaphonizing or something dumb word like that. But cleared and stained, what you do is you take typically a small animal, like a fish, a rat, or a frog or something like this, and you soak it in potassium hydroxide, which is a very strong base, and that uh denatures a bunch of the proteins and softens it up and le basically makes renders the entire animal transparent, totally transparent. You then soak the animal in uh dyes, and the different dyes, like uh like um there's a blue that which is the blue they use in in uh in uh slide staining. There's a lizardin's criminal, yeah.
+
+[11:37] They use that one and they use one of the blues. Uh bromfimal blue? I don't know, one of the blues. That's for a pH indicator. I don't know.
+
+[11:44] Yeah, no, there's several blues. They use one of the blues and they they soak them and then re-leach them out, and the different dyes have preferential affinities for different tissues. And so they can soak them into, for instance, the bones or the nervous system, and then leach them back out. So you have the transparent animal with the color of the bones and the color of the and I I freaking just love these things. So weepop sent one back encased in acrylic, this little fish.
+
+[12:07] But the problem is it's technically very difficult to do it on really large specimens because like a uh like diffusion? I don't know, I guess I guess the outside turns to total mush before the inside is is totally done, or you maybe you can't leach stuff out fast enough because I've always had this dream in like uh in like uh teaching butchery of how uh like especially fish butchery, because it's like hard to totally visualize where all the bones are in a fish to just have a completely like cleared and stained like striper. Oh that'd be amazing. Yeah you know what I mean like full size striper. I mean do you think you could like perfuse it the way they do when they're like embalming corpses.
+
+[12:42] Well when you're embalming a corpse right you're not uh the problem is is that as you're doing it you're destroying you're not destroying but you're reducing the structural integrity of the animal right so like let's say you were gonna perfuse it like I'm I don't know whether this stuff would collapse or whether or not I mean like but it's an interesting idea. I just think nobody's ever attempted big big animals as far as I know. Like you know the ultimate would be like the cleared and stained like cow that you can show uh like you know like 3D butchery on. Has anyone done the 3D cow butcher program yet that you know of uh not that I know of but I think there should be you make an app for that. Yeah there should be an app for that uh I wanted to because all you need is like you need to just scan the cow.
+
+[13:24] I'm sure this has happened scan the cow and then just reassemble you have a 3D cow and then you take like you know a knife and just make your do your online butchery of the cow. It's not the same as real butchery because real butchery involves like moving the meat around to get to the right bones. Maybe you could build like a haptic feedback knife. That's just that's just crazy. Like the new iPhone 7 is like disconcerting you would have to no you would have to because you would have to like have scans of all the conformations of the meat as it was peeling away.
+
+[13:53] Yeah. I mean like real butchery requires the manipulation of the meat as it comes off the bone but strictly as a sectioning it would be interesting to be able to like fully section it out. You know what I wanted? Nastasia and I talked about this a while ago. One of the I wanted to make 3D toys for the museum.
+
+[14:08] Like, imagine like little pigs and cows that are magnetic and you pull them apart at the at the meat boundaries. I have something like that. Yeah. I got in in Japan, it's a bonito that will disassemble with a velcro so you can see where the different loins for katsuabushi come from on the fish. And is it for chefs or for kids?
+
+[14:25] Uh I'm not sure. No, it's a little expensive for a kid's toy. Well, yeah, as most Japanese things are. Like Masono once made uh a and they might still make it, they made like a child's chef knife, which is basically a sh a misono where they just took the front tip off of it. Like literally, it's like school scissors for chef knives, like with the but you can still like slice the slice yourself out there.
+
+[14:50] Slice the hell out of your finger, which is what your kid's gonna do. Your kid, I mean, like it's interesting. They like learn the hard way and then don't do it again. With a masono? I mean, it's like to me, it's like this is like, you know, Nastasi and I might think this way.
+
+[15:05] It's like, okay, they're not gonna stab my eye because it doesn't have a point on it anymore. But what's the first thing a kid does when they when they when they take a knife? They put their fingers flat. Yeah. They don't like they don't roll their hands and they don't necessarily look at what they're doing.
+
+[15:19] So it's like I mean, I would doubt that the average first injury that a kid gets is stabbing their their brother or sister's eye with a knife. I would imagine the kid's first injury is coming straight down onto a fingertip. Yeah, I mean, does it come with a fingertip reattachment kit? No, it should like it should come with those cut-proof kind of gloves. But then how can you but how the heck those things are useless to me?
+
+[15:42] Like it like if you're in like large scale butchery where you don't need like a lot of like dexterity with your left, let's just assume you're right handed. If you don't need a lot of dexterity with your left, or if you're like really in guts and goop with your right, and you don't need like, yeah, you could hold a big, like a big freaking knife with one of those things and you don't need that much kind of like feedback in your hand. But how the hell are you gonna like do like do fine work with uh those cut resistant gloves on? Like fine work. Yeah I mean I guess that's like the trade off.
+
+[16:13] And with little kid fingers? Yeah. Little kid fingers inside of those cut resistant gloves? Yeah. How the hell are they gonna learn properly with Well they need like a thinner space age polymer.
+
+[16:23] Kids just need to kids need to come with extra hands. Well yeah. That's like when kids do really gross things, don't you wish you could just pop their hands off and put fronts. Yeah put fresh hands on. I'm like those hands are no good anymore.
+
+[16:36] Yeah I see my kids fall like in the street like like down where Nastasi and I used to work and we would just want to like we wish we could just unzip them and just put a whole fresh them on the outside because this is like the idea of cleaning off all that garbage is just kids are really molt like snakes. That's true. Or lobsters. Lobsters have to starve themselves and shrink out of their shell, break through the carapace and come up. That's why they don't taste as good right after they shed that would be less ideal for children than I think so.
+
+[17:12] Have you ever had one of those high pressure deshelled lobsters? No. You know about this right if you put the if you kill a lobster with like the super high pressure pasteurization thing, apparently you can just like like remove them from the shell. They just pop out? I g I guess I don't know like this is what like the monarchist cuisine I think had a picture of them, like the whole lobster, it's just the meat completely articulated but with no shell.
+
+[17:35] I thought I thought maybe they had some intern that had to like pick every piece of meat out with tweezers and then sew it back together. That sounds like a Nathan Mirville thing to do. But uh I don't think that's what they did. Maybe someone in the chat room will know. The uh speaking of shells, was I mentioning this?
+
+[17:52] I was doing some tests of uh pressure cooking eggs and vinegar. Okay. So obviously it it decalcifies the shell and vinegarizes the egg. But I haven't had 100% success. I've had marginal success.
+
+[18:05] Well, how do you define marginal success? Well, I did it with just uh vinegar, and the eggs were quite hard. I mean, the like quite hard coming out, like uh quite hard. Um good, a little bit of that gross calcium taste had penetrated the actual egg, but the the the shells were after an hour and fifteen or an hour and twenty in the pressure, the shells were completely peelable offable. They were actually interestingly, there was still some Maillard on the um on the egg, which leads me to believe that uh the vinegar hadn't penetrated to de-alkalize the white until like fairly late in the game, like maybe it cracked and penetrated.
+
+[18:46] Oh, okay. I don't know. The second time I tried to make flash you like mustard eggs? Explain. It does.
+
+[18:52] Do you have mustard eggs? So you take like vinegar and mustard. Some people use mustard powder, some people just squeeze mustard into it, and other spices like pickling spices like coriander and and you know, alliums and crap. And you throw uh hard-boiled eggs into it and just let it sit and they turn yellow and vinegary. It's like a pickled egg.
+
+[19:10] Oh, like a beat pickled egg, but not with beets mustard with mustard. That sounds super tasty. It's it is, they have a little sugar too, because if you were to give me any day of the week, you say, here, have this thing that tastes like beets, or here, have this thing that tastes like mustard. Nastassi, which one do you choose? Mustard.
+
+[19:26] Mustard. Absolutely mustard. Absolutely mustard. Dave, what would you ever choose a beet over a mustard? Watch out.
+
+[19:35] No, not in this case. Yeah. I love beets though. Really? Yeah.
+
+[19:40] You don't like beets? I like beets. But I mean, you say I I like beets means like I really like beets. Like, do you like playing in dirt? I don't think that's a fair analogy.
+
+[19:52] I mean, it's like literally the same flavor. Yeah. Yeah, like the Jasmine. Delicious Jasmine. Jasmin, the flavor compound from uh dirt.
+
+[20:03] Which by the way, Harold McGee says that there's a um a museum he went to a micro museum in Holland. Have you been to this? I've heard of it, but I haven't been to it. Yeah, he said they have a uh bacterial culture there that makes pure jasmin. See this open it, yeah, it's like just bacteria, but it smells like dirt.
+
+[20:18] But anyway, that's same thing as in beets and tilapia. So in beets we learn to like it because it's characteristic of beets, but if that smell bothers you in other things, then it can bother you in beets. Is most of it concentrated near the surface? That I don't know. That's an interesting question.
+
+[20:33] Like if you pe like like I Stacy and I have similar beet discs di problems. And it's mainly with when they don't peel the freaking things, right? When they undercook them or they don't peel them. That's when it's the biggest problem for us. But like flavor-wise or texture-wise?
+
+[20:49] Both. Well, actually, I don't mind a crunchy beet. Mm-hmm. I like beets in vinegar, but I would guess that the vinegar in the same way that it helps uh make tilapia not taste like well, it's different, right? That's a T M A cit uh what's it whatever it is.
+
+[21:02] Trimethylamine, right? With the uh do beets and vinegar do does the acid also knock down the Jasmine or have you perceived the Jasmine less? I mean, it's so pungent that it's possible you're just not experiencing other flavors much compared to acetic acid, but I mean it's possible that it could like protonate something and then like reduce its volatility. I would have to look this up and follow up with you on it. Yeah, yeah, do that, please.
+
+[21:35] Uh-huh. My favorite beat is the par dehydrated roasted beet. Nice. Those are good. Yeah.
+
+[21:41] I like those. Yeah, we we had like a beat dish kind of like that. Yeah, I don't know who came up with that technique. I first had it. I first had it uh like four years ago or something like this.
+
+[21:51] I know that uh a couple people are doing it. Mike Sheeran was is the guy that made it first for me. I think Ideas and Food did it. A few people did it. You know I'm talking about that technique, right?
+
+[21:59] They're like soft and chewy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the chewy beets. Chewy beets. Yeah, we had we had a dish like that for a while.
+
+[22:05] It was super good. Yeah. Yeah. Delicious. What kind of beets do they grow up there?
+
+[22:09] Do you have to have some local beet? Yeah, they are local beets. We get a lot of these like elongated beets. I'm looking at Nastasia's face with her reaction to elongated beets. Dirty elongated beets.
+
+[22:22] She's just lying. She's making crap up. All right. How do we talk about this? Why are we talking about this?
+
+[22:27] I often wonder that myself. Anyway, I forget. Call in your questions too. 718497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[22:34] Especially any questions you have about uh aroma chemistry and or cocktail bitters chemistry and or MIT Media Lab shenanigans or whatever else. Oh, speaking of which, uh shenanigans, we're going on Thursday to taste the waters at Saratoga. I'm excited about that. I've been reading a lot about the watch. So for those of you that don't know, Saratoga is a town in uh New York where the millionaires used to go in the 1800s, and it remained a very popular spa resort.
+
+[23:03] It was one of the first spa resorts uh based on waters, uh water in the United States. Not the first, as they claim, not the first, but one of the first, and remained popular uh till very recently. It actually interesting, it didn't start necessarily as like uh uh water cure as a hydro as a high hydro, whatever they call it apathy, like therapy? Yeah, didn't start as one of those. It started as just people believe in the curative nature of water, but it was started before the hardcore temperance movement, but like this part of those areas did get taken over by some temperance crews, but they had full booze and all that, and then later horse racing, and theoretically they invented the potato chip.
+
+[23:41] I guess when we're there we should have some potato chips. Do you believe that garbage? They're like, we invented the potato chip. That is freaking nonsense. That is nonsense.
+
+[23:48] Potatoes have been around so freaking long, you're telling me that nobody anywhere in the rest of the freaking world was like, you know what would happen if I cut these freaking things thin and then fried them until the water was gone? You think that some moron in freaking Saratoga was the first person to ever freaking do that? I doubt that very much. I I highly doubt that seems statistically improbable. Yes, and uh another thing, uh speaking of the same thing, same thing.
+
+[24:13] It's like look, I I here's what I can say. Here's a I wish people would never attribute things to like things like that that are just dishes to a particular era or particular time. What they should say instead is X, Y or Z is popular because of X, Y, or Z, right? So the potato chip became a thing in the United States because it of what they did at Saratoga. Sure.
+
+[24:37] Makes sense. Yeah. That seems viable. That's a reasonable thing to say and interesting in and of itself. Boom.
+
+[24:44] Right. Like here's another one. Arnold Palmer, who just passed, uh, just died. Do you like past or just dead? Dead.
+
+[24:50] That's the C like Stas. Stas. Right to the point. Yeah. Pat pass to what?
+
+[24:55] Past where? Past what? Past the peas. He's dead. Right?
+
+[24:58] You're like, anyway, so Arnold Palmer was like 87, died. And uh my wife pointed out that uh they asked me once about the Arnold Palmer for that 30, 30, what's it called? 30 for 30, the ESPN thing? 30 for 30. Anyway, I was like, he clearly person to ask about sports.
+
+[25:13] Yeah, me too. He clearly not the first person to mix iced tea and lemonade. Like, clearly. These are two beverages that you see next to each other on a like kind of on a constant basis. It's the non-alcoholic, like name.
+
+[25:26] Well, and if you if you put like lemon into sweet tea, you're already like 60% of the way there. You are absolutely correct. Yeah, and like things are, yeah. And if you have ever been to the South, like sweet tea, like coming out your freaking ears. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:40] Do you like that stuff? Um there's a time and a place for it. Yeah, it does stuff. But then then lemonade, and then like, you know, whatever. But undoubtedly people drink a lot of it now because of Arnold Palmer, which is the more interesting story.
+
+[25:52] Thank you for that, Arnold Palmer. Yes, thank you for that. I don't know anything about golf. Nor do I. Would you would you would you ever play golf in a Sassy?
+
+[26:01] Okay. I'm with you on this, but what is it that you don't like about the golf? Waiting for people. So you're already assuming that you're gonna be faster than everyone else? And I don't like mini golf, so I th oh okay, look, mini golf is an entirely different thing.
+
+[26:15] Like mini golf, like still waiting for people. Yeah, you typically can't drink during mini golf either. Really? Well, not that I know of. So you're saying this is it's kid friendly.
+
+[26:25] So you're saying this is a niche that has not been filled. The adult minigolf. Hmm. I think you might be onto something, Booker and Dex. I mean, yeah, I don't know.
+
+[26:29] I don't know. The only mini golf that, you know, the last time I saw mini golf was on Billy Madison, and he would definitely look like he was drinking when he was beating the crap out of that clown. Um questions here. Uh hello, cooking issue squad. Is there an ideal way to cook long grain rice?
+
+[26:51] And I didn't we didn't get any follow-up from them, right? On the from Quinn on the rice stuff, so I'm gonna do the best I can. Is there any uh ideal way to cook long grain rice so the texture doesn't turn out so clumpy or mushy? I'm aiming for something light and fluffy. See that's the thing.
+
+[27:05] Everyone's aiming for light and fluffy. No one's ever like, I want to make a c I want to make a congee I'm gonna paste this sucker out and turn it to a paste. But maybe they should want to. You like pay I like a rice paste. I like I like a good kanji.
+
+[27:16] Oh, I love a congee. Well, you wouldn't use that that kind of rice. No. But I like, but also remember like long grain like Labarima, uh or like Laborima style, which is not really, but like they break easily, so there used to be a whole cuisine based on broken. Right, right.
+
+[27:30] You know, and like the idea of the broken rice grain is you ha you like light and fluffy though, right, Stots? Yeah, yeah. Do you do you like I know that your favorite is like Italian style rice, right? Isn't that to me? But like what's your favorite what how do you like your rice best?
+
+[27:45] Light and fluffy. But like white, like white. White but like just plain. Jasmine, plain, yeah. You like jasmine?
+
+[27:53] I love jasmine rice. Can I ask what is Italian style rice? Actually, like risotto. Oh. Yeah.
+
+[27:59] When you have regular white rice, does it need to be like as hard in the center as you like your zotto? No. So you just like plain like rice cooker rice. Yeah. Do you have a rice cooker?
+
+[28:08] No. My bottom'm not big enough for a rice cooker. I use my bathtub as a rice cooker, but it only holds one cup. All right. Uh I'm in something light and fluffy with the grains intact.
+
+[28:20] I follow a standard procedure for uh washing the rice uh multiple times. By the way, that never freaking works. You know what I mean? It's like people like so much starch you're gonna leach off the star. Testify never works.
+
+[28:31] Never works. Here's it it wor it works. Here's the thing, right? Rit just people who write recipes for cooking rice shouldn't tell people like me to rinse it until the rice runs, the water runs clear. Because you know what the water never ever does?
+
+[28:47] It never runs clear. Never. Never. Like you should just say, rinse it three times. Yeah.
+
+[28:56] Like, you know, blah blah blah you know what I mean? It's like unless you own a stream and you can suspend the rice in a flowing freaking stream, rinsing it till it goes clear makes no freaking sense at all. That's what your new refrigerator should do. Rinse my rice for me? In a stream.
+
+[29:12] In a stream. What's how do what's the name? What's the Japanese name for the pre-rent the the no-rinse rice? Moozi, moozy mess. I don't know.
+
+[29:19] Anyway, I never used it. Um why would I pay extra? I know how to rinse rice. You know? Obsessively and methodically.
+
+[29:26] I don't live in California where every drop of water is a precious gift from this from the heavens. Oh, muzumai, there you go. Dave with the rice knowledge dropping it. Uh I follow the standard procedure of washing the rice multiple times, followed by soaking it for 15 to 30 minutes. Then drain and add fresh water uh to a 1.5 to one ratio of water to rice.
+
+[29:47] By the way, the ratio of water to rice, everyone gives water to rice ratios, but it's entirely dependent on the evaporation rate uh that you get out of because you're never cooking your rice in a hundred percent sealed vessel. Yeah. Uh I've run some tests many years ago, I don't remember what the results were. I mean, unless you're washing or cooking a rice in a pressure cooker. Even so, yes.
+
+[30:09] Or in uh the the best way to do it would be, and I think someone did this, I forget whether it was America's test kitchen or something, did it in sous vide bags. Okay. Uh in retort bags. Uh you could do it that way. Uh I uh Nastasia and I ran a series of tests years ago, but they were kind of inconclusive on sealed bean cookery.
+
+[30:24] I was trying to do I was trying to, you know, you know, beans, how do you say beans in a in a in a bottle in Italian? It's like fasciole or something like this. You remember how to say bottle Italian? No. Fagioli e fiasco or something like that?
+
+[30:36] Fagioli fiasco? I don't know. That sounds plausible. Anyway, anyway, it's like you stick the beans in a bottle. You familiar with this?
+
+[30:43] And you add the water and you just put a little uh olive oil into it, and you throw in a couple of herbs and you just throw the put the bottle in the oven uncapped, and then uh it just like absorbs the the and then you shake the beans out of the bottle. And so basically it's just a method to uh A cook the beans very slowly, and beans uh B beans. Now I got I'm channeling Cesare Casella. Beans. Uh reduce the uh amount of liquid that's evaporating out of the product while it's while it's cooking so that we can be more anyway.
+
+[31:14] So I was trying to do different various ways of doing it. I never got I never got it perfect. That culminated in a test I ran where I did uh pressure cooked, I'm making quote marks with my fingers that you can't see over the air, but um where I did uh pressure cooked beans directly in an ISI whipper with a blowtorch. Like super not safe. Remember that, Anastasia?
+
+[31:36] I shoved a thermometer into the top of an ISI and then like blowtorched it. So how like what's the pressure rating for that safety valve? High. Okay. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:49] Like I forget how. Oh yeah. We we cooked beans from dry in like I want to say like five minutes. Right? It was like stupid.
+
+[32:02] It was dumb. I should go back and look at the video. We did it for um, we did it for uh first week feast. I was making nachos at someone's desk from scratch from scratch. Uh-huh.
+
+[32:13] And for me, from scratch means we start with dry beans. So we started with dry beans for the refried beans and just blowtorch the thing. But looking back, like even like recommending to someone that we do that was like a really terrible, terrible idea. They tasted they tasted good. It tasted fine.
+
+[32:29] Even Nastasia said it tasted fine. Remember the look on the guy's face? Yes. There was a guy next to us, the guy, okay. So like when they were shooting it, the dude next to us, they want him to keep working like it was a normal work day while I was doing it.
+
+[32:42] And I'm sitting here, like, I turn him, I'm like, hey, this is probably not gonna explode. And I start blowtorching the steel container, and he was like, what the f what? And we start dumping liquid nitrogen on the desk like behind it, making the margaritas. He he hated us. Yes.
+
+[32:57] That guy hated us. Anyway. Um so back to this thing. 1.5 to 1 ratio. There is no such thing as a hundred percent ratio.
+
+[33:06] What there is is if you use 1.5 to 1 on a particular style of rice, odds are that that particular style of rice is gonna have similar, right? So the longer something cooks, right? Probably, I'm guessing, although it's not necessarily. Do you add more to brown rice than to white rice? I'm trying to look at I'm trying to see in my head the water levels for the cups on the side of my rice cooker.
+
+[33:28] But anyway, I would guess that the longer a rice cooks, the more water you need to add because of the increased evaporation. Also, the wider your pan, the more water you have to add for a given amount of rice because the more surface area and therefore the more evaporation because your typical pot is not actually sealed. And in fact, here's another lie people tell you constantly that I've kind of said on the on the air a bunch of times. But anyone that thinks you're generating any pressure on the inside of a pot is sorely mistaken unless it is completely sealed because even one half PSI of overpressure on the inside of a uh pot that's eight inches across, right? Let's say your pot's only eight inches across.
+
+[34:06] So half of eight is four. Four. Uh four squared. Sixteen. Right?
+
+[34:13] So that's R squared. And then pie, six three, so just say times three. Divided by two. Twenty-four and half. So about twenty-four pounds is pushing up out of an eight-inch pot that is um that is not sealed at a mere half PSI.
+
+[34:36] That's a lot of weight. Yeah. Most people's lids don't weigh 24 pounds. That's right. So you'd need a perfect sealing and you would need a 24-pound sack of garbage on top of your of pot to get a mere half PSI of overpressure.
+
+[34:50] But it is true that you are vastly reducing evaporation by covering it. Vastly reducing evaporation. But you're not stopping it by any means. Just by surface area. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[35:02] Yeah. Um, correct. So anyway, so 1.5 to 1 is like you can't go based on like a ratio like that. Um let me get back to the question because my phone decided I was done. Uh okay.
+
+[35:14] The cooked surface is nice and pretty fluffy, but as I get uh closer to the bottom, it gets more or less clumpy and mushy. Is it a matter of changing the ratio or the soaking time? Uh I forgot to say they soaked by 15 to 30 minutes. Um or are there other variables that work, such as the age of the rice or humidity levels? Ultimately, I'd like to use it for making delicious fried rice.
+
+[35:36] Any helpful tips or suggestions would be most appreciated. Alright, look. If you want to make fried rice, right, I almost don't care if some of the stuff's broken for fried rice. You know what I mean? Or or a little mushy.
+
+[35:48] But you might want to consider if you don't say what type of rice you're using, you might want to no one does anyone do like um fried rice with like a basmati style. I mean, I'm sure someone must, but it would taste good, no? Or is it too thin? Too thin. I mean, I suppose once you like cool it and then fry it, it could like the texture would be not as good, maybe.
+
+[36:11] Right. I mean, the problem with something like let's say, like Nastasia, kind of the rice of choice in my house is jasmine rice because I enjoy the smell, right? Yeah. The problem with jasmine rice in general for this kind of style of cooking that that we're discussing here, pot pot cooking, is that uh it has a ten it's long, it's longer grain, so it but it also is um uh stickier, right, than uh a lot of other long grain varieties of rice. And so it tends to have this problem of having some of the grains at the bottom be mushier um when the top is perfect, right?
+
+[36:48] Uh and also, I don't think jasmine rice is gonna respond well. I don't know, I haven't tested it, but I don't think it's gonna respond well to the technique you would use for basmati rice, which would be boil it in copious water, drain it just before it's done, and then let it steam out. You can, if you're really worried about it, you can do a um like a half and half where you do a partial absorption cooking of your rice and then steam it to completion. And that will that will cause the bottoms to not get mushed out. Well, and I was thinking, I mean, maybe this is a stupid question, but why not just steam all of it?
+
+[37:24] You can. Jasmine rice can be steamed. If you're going to steam jasmine rice, right, you need to uh go thinner on your layer and wide. So, like that would be another thing. I think, like in general, I said this last week.
+
+[37:37] I think that in in general, I think what you're you're gonna minimize textural difference between the bottom and the top of the rice simply by not having the layer be so thick. But you're always gonna have uh a tendency for the bottom rice to absorb more water is because it's in contact with water longer. So the top is essentially steaming uh while the bottom is essentially done. So um, yeah, like I said, like one thing you could do if you want to have partial absorption cooking because it's faster, right? Is you could uh you could so there's always water above the surface of your rice when you start cooking, yeah.
+
+[38:11] So you could, in essence, lift it slightly so it's off the bottom so that it cooks down and then it's not touching the sort of the really cute kid looking on our window. So it's not touching uh the bottom of the rice when it starts to steam, and then it steams the rest of the rice. Right. So you need like a pot with a false bottom that lets you boil for a certain amount of time, and then when the water level gets low enough to activate steaming. Yeah, but a lot of this also, like you could probably do the, you know, that what a lot of people do is they'll towards the quotes end, they'll open it, fluff the rice, i.e., turn it a little bit, close it, and let it equalize and steam out for the last little bit.
+
+[38:44] Because of the stuff that was on the bottom is now at the top, now steaming. Now steaming, and like they finish it out that way. So that's that's uh all ways to do it. But while I was researching this, I looked at a couple of interesting uh papers. Uh one is called um the formation of cracks in rice during wedding.
+
+[39:01] And it just look at uh it has a bunch of extra stuff, but unfortunately that one I couldn't like copy and paste in to take a look at it. But that so it turns out that you couldn't access the full paper. Yes, you can, and it's you don't even need to pay for it. It's there on the on the interwebs. And the interesting thing is is that uh so pre-soaking the rice, it's not it what happens is is that the surface of the rice cracks like fairly soon after you start soaking it.
+
+[39:27] And so it's those cracks that allow water to get in like really, really uh quickly. And therefore, even a small soaking time can drastically decrease the amount of time it takes to get water in to make it uh taste cooked. Anyway, then there's another piece though that I read, and and it wasn't cited a lot, so I don't know whether people agree with it, but this is interesting. It's called the uh and I mentioned this last week, I don't know if anyone looked it up, but I didn't talk about it. The impact of pre-soaking on flavor of cooked rice by E.T.
+
+[40:01] Champagne and KL Bet Garber. Uh this is in uh was printed. Oh, I don't have the date on me, but anyway, you can look it up. And they did it uh they did it as part of the uh ARS uh research uh center in New Orleans, which is maybe where the rice is, where maybe that's where we keep our rice cultures. ARS is the USDA.
+
+[40:22] Yeah. So anyway, so that I mean that would make sense. So it should be real, right? I will just read the beginning. Soaking rice in water for 30 minutes or longer before cooking is traditionally practiced in Japan, Korea, and other Asian countries.
+
+[40:33] This paper is gonna piss Japanese people off, like piss them off because they're so hyped up on like the specific techniques that they use. You know what I mean? That like anyway, so anyway, check this out. When soaked, the rice grains hydrate, develop cracks, and water is absorbed. Soaking facilitates uniform cooking and shortens cooking time.
+
+[40:53] This is why we a lot of the times why we say we do it, right? Because water absorbs in faster, you're not going to have a hard center of the grain and a mushy outside. And also it shortens the cooking time for those of you that are interested in shortening cooking time. But of course, shortening the cooking time is no big deal because you're increasing the freaking soaking time. Hello.
+
+[41:11] Uh and uh a lot of people have run tests on things like uh cooking time versus soaking time on beans. Obviously, it's much faster. Pasta, faster. Everything pre-soaking makes it faster. Okay.
+
+[41:24] Uh the cooked kernel uh after soaking is usually less firm. Uh I guess I guess they mean when it's done. The present study was undertaken to determine the effects of pre-soaking on the flavor of cooked rice and whether the flavor differences are associated with textural changes that could influence the retention of aroma compounds. So this might be interesting to you. Eleven samples of short, medium, and long grain milled rice representing scented and non scented rice and a wide rate uh range of amylose uh contents were presented to a descriptive sensory panel.
+
+[41:55] For the set of all rice samples, undesirable, ready for this, Nastasia? Undesirable sewer slash animal flavor, significantly increased and sweet taste significantly decreased with pre soaking for 30 minutes. Sewer flavor. Were you familiar with that defect in rice? Animal slash sewer flavor.
+
+[42:12] Did they say what temperature they soaked it at? Uh I think they did it to either this or another study. This is just the abstract. Yeah. I mean, I did look at them, but I don't remember it.
+
+[42:24] For individual rice samples, significantly higher sewer slash animal intensity was observed with pre-soaking for the two uh basmati rice samples and one of the U.S. long grain rice samples. When pre soaked, sweet taste was significantly lower in one of the basmati and jasmine rice samples. The US medium grain rice and one U.S. long grain rice.
+
+[42:44] Okay, so basically they're saying that animal and sewer was in the basmati and a couple other long grains. So maybe the short grain Japanese style rice don't get the animal sewer. And sweetness was decreased in uh the long grain. So maybe it's just soaking on short and medium grain Japanese style rice is okay, but longer grain rices, if you pre soak them, they bring on the sweet, sweet animal and sewer, uh especially scented ones. But then they add uh pre-soaking also resulted in significant increases in summed negative flavor attributes and significant decreases in summed positive flavor attributes for the set of all rice samples.
+
+[43:18] The effect of pre soaking on texture as measured by TPA hardness, I don't know what TPA hardness is. Texture penetrator analysis. I think something like that. Uh, and chewiness did not explain the observed increases in negative flavor attributes. An increase in free sulfur containing amino acids with pre soaking could have resulted in an increase of their breakdown products, thereby contributing to the increase in sewer slash animal flavor.
+
+[43:39] The decreases in sweet taste and some positive flavor attributes were likely a result of masking caused by the increase in sewer animal and some negative flavor attributes. Interesting, huh? Very interesting. Never thought about it. I didn't think about it that way before.
+
+[43:51] And I have to look and see. They say uh I'm wondering what they said they said short, medium, and long grain, but I want to see if they actually use like a Japanese style one. Right, yeah. Wouldn't that isn't this gonna isn't that gonna stir up a like a con you would think this would stir up a controversy. Right now, Dave.
+
+[44:06] I think it's kind of important. Yeah, yeah. Cause like I typically, like when I feel like I'm treating my rice nicely, I'll pre-soak it. Certain rices you have to pre-soak, like like uh uh sweet rice, like sticky rice. Idley rice is all about the soaking when you're making a dough, but you never think of idli as having like a sewer animal or like a lack of sweet flavor.
+
+[44:27] No. Right? Yeah. So, like, of course, all that stuff's parcooked. I couldn't see whether they parcooked or parboiled this rice.
+
+[44:32] Does parboiling decrease this like animal soaking thing? Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? We need some follow-up on this.
+
+[44:40] Need some follow-up on this. You wanna take a quick break, Dave, and come back? Yeah, sure. Alrighty. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps.
+
+[45:07] If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant pureees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time.
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+[45:27] Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Step's amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit ChefSteps.com slash J O U L E.
+
+[46:05] I can imitate that idiot. J-O-U-L-E. Are we really playing like me on this show? Like they don't hear enough. They gotta hear me and the promo too.
+
+[46:15] Dave Overload. Dave Overload is right. Um all right. So we have another question in. Um, this is uh from uh Cafe uh Bezaloo in um where are they?
+
+[46:27] I forget where they said they are. In Seattle. Um I'm gonna go ahead and say that I'm not necessarily gonna be able to answer uh answer this question. But uh in fact, well let's just get to the question first, and you know, Ariel, maybe you have some information on this. What do you know about dairy chemistry?
+
+[46:43] Fair bit. Nice. All right. Uh so then this is your question, because uh what do you know about butter chemistry styles? None, nothing.
+
+[46:52] In fact, this is a question that the question that these guys are asking is not something I'd ever considered before, which I enjoy. So in fact that's often the best kind of best. But the problem is is that like it's also not the kind of question that a cursor cursory review of literature could answer because it's not something that is um a lot of other people have worried about. Yeah. Right.
+
+[47:15] And we'll get into it why. So what I tried to do for you guys was I tried to get in touch with uh Professor Goff at the University of Guelph, like the dairy guy whose ice cream pages I've read for years and years, but I didn't try to contact until this morning, so he didn't get back. So like if he does ever get back to me and wants to call in, I'm gonna read your question now, but then I I'm gonna I'll re-follow up if he gets back to me. I would like to have him call in or call into the show because I kind of like to talk to the guy because I've used his ice cream information so freaking much. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[47:46] Yeah, yeah, the man, the myth, the legend. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so um it goes like this the question. Hello, Dave and Nastasia. Uh and uh by Dave, presumably both Dave's uh I'll take it.
+
+[47:59] Yeah. How did you enjoy the by the way? Uh we'll get into it later. Uh my wife and I have owned a bakery in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle for the last 16 years. We specialize in uh Viennoiserie.
+
+[48:11] Now listen, Vienna has makes delicious pastries. Did you know this? Have you been? I have not been, but I I've flown through the Vienna airport, and the airport pastries are slightly less bad than regular airport pastries. So hopefully that's the well on the Nastassi, have you ever been airport?
+
+[48:27] You actually now you would like it. You actually would like it. Like, because I know I've seen every European the youth view like you, like you've seen every European city, but like Vienna actually has a really cool feel to it. And I swear to God, their pastries are freaking phenomenal. Like they, and you like pastries, right?
+
+[48:43] They're really good. Like I have to say, they're really freaking good. I had the schnitzel, it was good. You know what I mean? At the official place.
+
+[48:50] Right. It was good. Yeah. Their worst was very good. Uh but man, those guys know how to make pastry.
+
+[48:56] You know? I don't know. Nice. Anyway, so um. And I know that's not what I'm saying.
+
+[49:02] Well, I mean the Croissant originates from possibly Vienna and the retreating Turks. What do you call me? Okay, this mess with you. Anyway, but it's the other thing about Vienna that's so crazy is that it's like at such a confluence of culture and it's like right on that it's right at the border between you know it's definitely feels like a Western European town, but it's right at the border between Eastern and Western Europe and uh and like far to the south there too, right? And but the the thing about it is is that it was the center of Western European culture for a long time and still ha has that like super cultural feel to it.
+
+[49:40] Yeah. Plus pastry. Plus pastry. Plus pastry. Plus like a very high concentration of urban vineyards.
+
+[49:46] Is that true? Yeah, yeah. They had like the city planners in like the 18th and 19th century, like put all these interstitial grape vineyards. Any anything any good making anything good? Or is it all garbage?
+
+[49:57] No, no, no, it is good, and like people have been tending it for like hundreds of years. Yeah, yeah. So it's this like urban sort of uh uh like AOC. So you can get wine from Vienna, yeah. And you've had this wine.
+
+[50:11] Uh a long time ago, yeah. I know more about it as a historical curiosity of wine making, but yes, you can get this wine. Nice. You had it when you were at Davis, they shipped over to you. Hey, did I tell you I had a Norton I liked?
+
+[50:22] Did you? Yeah. I forget the name of it, but I had a Norton I liked, and someone was supposed to ship us some Nortons. Yeah. We're waiting, people.
+
+[50:29] We'll we'll credit you, we'll give all kind of love. I'm interested in I'm interested in the Norton. Anyway, you know, the U.S. grape. For those of you that don't know, Norton, the U.S.
+
+[50:38] grape. Uh what's the other name for it? Cynthia. There's another name for Norton that uh is used in uh Virginia. Anyway, but I forget what it is.
+
+[50:48] It's not Muscadine, is it? No, no, no, totally different. Okay. No, no, Norton does not have a um Norton does not have a kind of a fox. Oh, it doesn't it?
+
+[50:56] A non-fox. But Norton gets a bad uh rap, and I said this on the air before, but I think the reason Norton gets a a bad rap is because no one is I think the window of great of greatness, what I've read from people who actually know about Norton is that the window of greatness of Norton is like short and not right away. So it's not like great right away, and it's not great if it's really old. You want to hold it for you know, like four like three three to five years and then drink it. But then if you can do that, that Norton really can kind of hold its own.
+
+[51:30] Cool. People are so freaking prejudiced against alternative uh grapes. Yeah. They really are. You know what's really weird is that everyone and their and their sibling is like interested in the tiniest like Italian or French grape that they grow three of, and everyone's like super jacked, and no one wants to look for the awesome weird American grape.
+
+[51:54] Yeah, we need more like pride in our biodiversity. I mean, and I think it's because I think it's because at least all those weird European grapes are all like under cultivation for wine making. Oh well, they're all yeah, they're all vinifera, right? And so you know this Norton is not vinifera, and so you know, people are like, oh, so it can't be good, because a lot of wine from like from you know other styles of grapes, um, you know, fox grapes here are wretched, to be fair. But um anyway, whatever.
+
+[52:25] Enough, enough, enough of that. We're back, we're back in Vienna. Uh we specialize in uh, and I can't say the word again with the with the Frenchness, so I'm just gonna say Vienna style pastry, such as croissant, pinot chocolat, etc. Starry, sorry, Nastasia, they apologize to you for loving the croissant. Did you know that Nastasia hates croissant?
+
+[52:43] Is it like a flavor thing or like a mess thing. I think a people like it thing. I like chocolate croissants. There you go. So you like the Panot Charlotte.
+
+[52:50] The butter we use is European slow churned, low water. That's all in quotes. 82% butter fat product from Oregon. Uh so it's like not like, you know, it's not Costco butter. Uh no offense, Costco.
+
+[53:02] Uh lately, we have been plagued by what I call brittle butter. Now remember, this is recent. Okay? So it's recent. Uh it's not their entire career, it's recently.
+
+[53:12] Uh normally good butter has a stretch or extensibility that is essential in croissant making. As you may know, the butter and puff pastry in croissant has to stay cold yet pliable to form smooth, even layers as it is rolled between layers of dough. So cool, right? It needs to be soft enough that it can uh be rolled out, but not so uh warm that the it melts into the dough, right? It needs to stay as distinct layers, all right?
+
+[53:35] So we're all good on what we're talking about here. As of late, our butter has been shattering into little chips between the dough. See the attached video. So they set a video of like the dough after like one or two turns, and they they slice it with a sharp knife so you can see the dough, two dough layers in the butter layer, and they pull on it. And in the one, the good butter, sure enough.
+
+[53:56] The butter pulls with it. The butter pulls with it, like a fine taffy, and then when I before I knew it, they were I just saw the video from Nastasia and it said butter, and I thought these guys had managed to make butter that pulls like taffy. You know, it's like, oh my god, these people are gonna become billionaires. Imagine if you could have butter with that texture. It would be freaking nuts, like butter with the texture of dough.
+
+[54:16] I was like, oh my god, I'm moving to Seattle, I'm learning how to do this. Uh but it wasn't. It was dough with the butter in the middle once I looked closer. You were gonna throw it all away for that. I was gonna be like, these people, like clearly, like, you know, there is a yoda out there, and I need to go study with Yoda.
+
+[54:33] Because, like, I just like it's like it's one of those things where now it's in my head that I should be able to do this with butter. And so, like someday I'm gonna figure it out. Like, I'm gonna have butter with the texture of Celepton Derma. And I was just like, this has happened to you, right? But your then your mind tells you no.
+
+[54:49] This is like the same mind that caused me to walk into a glass wall a week and a half ago in Spain. Mine that's not quite paying attention to it. I think they might call that the imp of the perverse. Oh, really? Yeah.
+
+[54:59] You look much better. I my eye does look better, right? Now I just look like you know, I got in a scuffle, maybe. You you were a monster last week. Well, you should have seen me.
+
+[55:07] I should Instagram out the picture of what I looked like right afterwards. Oh my god. Because I look like I like I make Frankenstein look like he had a small brow. Uh it was it was nasty. Even Nastasia said, even though I'm happy that you're hurt, I can't look at it because it makes me nauseated.
+
+[55:24] I did not see it. You literally said I can't look at it anymore because it makes me nauseated. Yes. But why would you want to look at it? Because you want to see me hurt.
+
+[55:33] That's the only reason. Anyway, uh, as of late, our butter has been shattering into little chips between the dough. I know that fat can come in many forms from saturated to liquid. I also know that many farmers feed their cows a mix, including canola oil to boost the fat content of milk. I also recall working in Switzerland where the bakers had a choice of butters with the same f uh fat content, but were rated with different melting points.
+
+[55:56] The problem with our butter has been intermittent from case to case, right? Which is the worst. You just want it to be one way or the other. One way or to other. Um case to case meaning case of butter, not like anyway, whatever.
+
+[56:10] Uh so apparently every case of butter is either one way or to other. Right? But they're using the same producer. Yeah. So uh we we ask the producer, they say they have no idea what we're talking about, and that we should ask the cows.
+
+[56:23] That is a jackweed thing to tell you. First of all, like if I'm the producer and I'm making like fancy, expensive, like slow churn European style butter, and one of my users who like is spending a lot of extra money to buy my product, comes to me and says, without being a jerk, so like I'm having this issue. Can you help me out? Like, there's a thing I need your butter to do that I buy it for, and it's not doing that. Yeah, you freaking look into it.
+
+[56:48] Yeah, I'd be horrified. I would be, I would, I would, I would, yes. Yeah. I would commit damage to myself. I would be so upset.
+
+[56:56] You know? And so like the reaction of this butter producer is not cool, right? Super uncool. Super uncool. First of all, they should at least be intrigued.
+
+[57:07] Ask the couch. That's right up there with ask my butt, which is what I like to say a lot. Interesting question, ask my butt. But you know when I say it in a non-family show, I don't use I don't I use a different word. But anyway, is that it's isn't that a nice, it's a it's a fun way to really, it's a mean brush off, but it kind of feels good to use it, right, Styes?
+
+[57:23] You said it to me. Oh, yes, I have. You deserved it. Okay. Uh the problem with our butter is intermittent from case to case.
+
+[57:33] Usually we can use the funky butter. Funky butter would be an awesome James Brown song. It's too bad he's dead. It's like funky drummer. You just say all you have to do is take the song Funky Drummer and take the word drummer out and say butter.
+
+[57:46] That does like mashups. Yeah, yeah. A funky butter. But with Truffle Butter. Weird Owl's actually doing voiceovers for Teen Titans Go.
+
+[57:54] Did you know this? I did not know that. Yeah. Uh we can usually use the funky butter in cookie doughs or creams as there is no adverse taste in the butter. So it's not a taste issue.
+
+[58:02] Okay. It's a must be a fatty acid compound. Presumably, these guys have control over the moisture content of their butter. So it's not the moisture content, presumably it's the fatty acid content. Lately the problem has been more frequent, and we are unable to exchange the brittle butter for good butter.
+
+[58:16] Any insight would be much appreciated as we're much in need of a solution. Okay. And that's uh from James at uh Cafe Bezzalou in Seattle. Um so I did some uh original research, uh not original, I did some uh a preliminary rather research uh on the internets, and it is in fact true that um the uh the the actual um triglyceride profile of butter changes quite a lot based on the breed of the cow and the feed of the cow. Um so you might you might need to switch to a butter producer that has a uh a finer hold over the feed of their cow, right?
+
+[59:02] So like for instance, like but it it's gonna cost you a phenomenal amount more, right? So you might need to go to like crappy uh you know, crappy the supermarket butter might actually be more homogenous because it's probably all coming from the same like garbage industrially fed cows, right? But maybe it works for you. But the the other side is you could probably spend a lot, and um I don't know whether grass feeding is good for this or not, but I mean you can buy a butter where you know what the feed of the cows is, and then like we only feed silage, for instance, or we only feed grass, for instance, and then at least you know what it's gonna be from case to case. Um, but I don't I l originally looked into into some solutions.
+
+[59:45] So a lot of people, when they're trying to there's two reasons to feed your uh your cows that the literature was talking about to feed your cows specific uh things. One is some people want to lower the saturated fat index of their butter, and so they attempt to feed lots of poofs to uh polyunsaturated fatty acids to cows to change the composition. Um the other is to increase the fat content. So normally uh all the studies I read where they tried to ink to decrease the saturation of the fat also led to an increase in overall fat content. So that's probably not what's happening in in your case.
+
+[1:00:19] Uh well, and I mean, correct me if I'm wrong from your research on this, but I would imagine that like more saturated fatty acids would give a crumblier texture profile than you would think that. However, however, uh, when I was looking at it, uh one of the one study, and I was like skimming through it. This is why we really need to get a hold of someone like who's up like a butter technologist. Yeah. Uh one study seemed to show that um butter that had actually been reinforced with steerin, like like try sti like steeric acid three times, right?
+
+[1:00:53] Which is a stiff, yeah, stiff, hard like tallow wax butter that had been reinforced with that with that was more plastic in all temperature ranges. Interesting. So which was totally I was like, what? I'm like, I must be misreading it. So I think maybe I was misreading it.
+
+[1:01:12] But when I when I started getting data that was like so back and forth in my head, I'm like, boom, I can't say anything other than this is a really interesting subject to me. The other thing I would say is is that you might I wonder whether they're whether you can get any benefit by pre-plasticizing the butter. In other words, uh, like I don't know how you I don't know what you do to your uh butter block before you um before you do it, but like some beating um you know, I i this is just true is that whenever I bake, I'm lazy, and so I pull butter hyper cold out of the fridge and I beat it with a rolling pin and in and it all of a sudden becomes plastic. Now, a lot of this has to do with friction, right? Because you're doing heating with friction and you're beating it, but it can't, but when I thought about it, it's not really getting that much warmer.
+
+[1:02:02] It can't all be that. I wonder whether you can like do something. This is almost like I I don't know if is butter actually does it have a crystal structure at all? Well, it's m in other words, it has multiple melting points. Yeah, right.
+
+[1:02:16] It's like it's not like as uh sharp as uh it's not as sharp as let's say cocoa butter, which is a very pretty sharp. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and I ask that because if there is any kind of like pattern to the alignment of the fat molecules, then physically manipulating them could make the overall texture more plastic. Right.
+
+[1:02:35] So I mean it's not like pure crystallization, then. Right. But it's gotta be some combination. And then the way they're kind of like Penrose solid thing with like local order. Right.
+
+[1:02:46] I mean, uh yeah, I don't know. In other words, like maybe this could help. I don't know. But the other thing is that I know that for in, you know, for when you're using just shortening for these kinds of situations, they have specific solid fat ratios at specific temperatures and specific melts to get the puffiest pastry possible. But anyway, so I think it's an interesting subject.
+
+[1:03:02] I'm gonna cogitate on it uh over the week. Hopefully, Professor Goff gets back to me or points me in the direction of a butter expert. Uh next week, Anastasia and I will come back with information about Saratoger's Saratogers. Saratoga's, by the way, the reason we're going is because water comes out of the ground with bubbles in it in Saratoga. It comes out of the ground, carbonated by whatever you want to call it God, nature, magma.
+
+[1:03:30] Like it's from the mantle. It's carbonated out of the ground. And I might that's like literally your holy grail. Like, like the I'm like honestly, I'm so freaking excited to go drink, put my face under a tap of water outside that is carbonated and just inhale salty carbonated water. Like I like Vichy Catalan, the salty carbonated stuff.
+
+[1:03:55] Uh so yeah, I'm super excited about that. Nastasi and I in different rooms are also going to take a bath in carbonated water, which is another dream of mine. Take a bath in carbonated water. It's gonna be excellent. In the meantime, go to Mofad.org and please uh donate to uh our Kickstarter for the next upcoming uh exhibition we're gonna have.
+
+[1:04:16] Chow, the making of Chinese American cuisine. And uh Dave, didn't we have a uh uh a donor for cooking issues that we want to give a shout out to? Do you have that information? Uh do not know. Oh, let me see if I can call it up really quickly on the way out.
+
+[1:04:32] In other words, we'll we'll just thank we'll thank them next week. Just remind me to thank them next week, and we'll be back with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[1:05:03] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Racketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics, pet supplies, kids' stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is with Rackiton, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental.
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+[0:20] Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, Booking.com, Bayotor, Burbo, Hotels.com, IHG, and more. Save on cruises, vacation packages, and experiences as well. And don't worry, cash back can be earned on top of your credit card points and with many loyalty programs. Because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead.
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+[0:43] Take a trip. Find that perfect hotel. Book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain. Wherever you want to go, go with Rackaton. Join today for free.
+
+[0:53] Go to Rackiton.com or get the app. That's R A K U T E N. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at ChefSteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy.
+
+[1:12] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradio network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from a little bit even later than normal, around 12 15 today, you know, to around 1245, like you know, one o'clock. From Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Br br Brooklyn!
+
+[1:45] Join Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? So actually, Nastasia and I went on an adventure last week, which we'll see if we have time to talk about our uh our adventure uh to the great town of Saratoga Springs. But we have two guests in the studio with us today. We have Kitchen Appliance Engineer Joe Zukowski.
+
+[2:05] How you doing? Good afternoon. Yeah, and we have the uh the reigning uh current pr crown prince of the Museum of Food and Drink, uh Peter Kim. Here to spread hate and vacate. Yeah.
+
+[2:18] What kind of vacate? Number two? That's actually a ri uh line from Exhibit. I don't know if you remember that guy. I remember spell yeah, with the with the spelling X.
+
+[2:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. Good strength. We got Dave in the booth. What up?
+
+[2:33] How you doing? Good. Speaking of Dave in the booth, uh so a number of months ago, uh Nastasia and I along Carlos in that too, right? In the w in the one we did for uh Johnny Walker, Dave. Oh, you I wasn't here that day, uh so I'm not sure.
+
+[2:49] But we do have the episode. Yeah, so uh we taped a uh well, I gotta admit it was like a shill thing. Like we were like, they were like, hey, will you do this episode for this new Johnny Walker product? And we're like, okay. But anyway, we actually taped a full-on episode.
+
+[3:04] And if you don't like the wine episode, you shouldn't go to this one. But we're gonna tweet out uh as the last of Nastasia and uh my contractual tweet and Instagrams. We will uh send out a uh a link like that's not in our normal uh cooking issues feed to a cooking issues episode where we talk to the rare the rare beast, unfortunately, in the uh in in the spirits world, but the the female master uh blender, uh which is uh which is awesome. You know what I mean? Ne need more of that.
+
+[3:38] It uh the the industry needs to uh shift to a more uh gender parity situation. What? Balance. Balance, yeah, balance. Uh all right, well, how are we gonna start here?
+
+[3:50] Peter, why don't you why don't you before before you just start throwing your hate and your vacate, why don't you just uh why don't you drop your uh drop your plug knowledge for the museum food and drink? Oh yeah, so uh we are working right now on Chow, the making of Chinese American cuisine. And uh basically, yeah, you've got this situation where there's I don't think they know I don't think we've talked about it because you haven't let us talk about it on air. What? All right, okay.
+
+[4:15] Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna explain the exhibit, man. All right, geez. Um before you ask them for money, why don't you at least tell them so you've got this situation where you've got over 50,000 Chinese restaurants in the US. They're all over and look, so I I grew up in the Midwest, right? Um Middle Nowhere, Danville, Illinois.
+
+[4:32] Well, what are you insult insulting on your uh on your upbringing? It's true. I mean, so anyway, we we were one of the only uh Asian families in the town, and when we wanted to, you know, like I grew up eating like meatloaf and like green bean casserole, but also like you know, dried squid and other green stuff. But when we wanted to go out to eat, you know, you know what? Dried squid would be nice in the green bean casserole.
+
+[4:51] Yeah, sure. Um so when we wanted to go out to eat and we wanted to eat something that wasn't like Olive Garden, it was a Chinese restaurant. And uh and I think you know it was really the only option for going out to eat that to have something that was like you know, quote unquote uh ethnic. Um so uh that's actually the case in a lot of parts of the country. Um, so you live the Asian version of the Christmas story.
+
+[5:13] Yeah, basically. All right. Yeah, there you go. Um and so you have this like situation where these restaurants are all around the country, they're all serving they're all run by uh Chinese immigrant families. Uh they're serving a menu that um I think we all know is not a lot like food in China.
+
+[5:28] Um and it's one of these things that's become just such a central part of American culture. Um and uh so what's this you know I guess it's a sort of curious situation and you want to know, you know, what the story is behind that. And it turns out there is over a hundred, there are over 150 years of history behind this cuisine, and so we're gonna tell the story of that with the exhibition. All right. So like to to boil that down into like 30 seconds, the number, how many restaurants roughly?
+
+[5:52] Over 50,000. That's like three times the number of McDonald's, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's many more uh in fact, there's more Chinese uh restaurants in the US than uh Burger King, McDonald's, and Wendy's combined, right? Yeah.
+
+[6:04] Yeah, of course, because there's more McDonald's than any of those other ones, and there's three times as many McDonald's, so clearly more. Uh the other thing I think it's really interesting is uh we kind of take this thing for we take Chinese food for granted, Chinese American food, even though it's weird that you have this kind of ubiquitous and kind of monolithic cuisine. I'm not talking about like the new fancy stuff that like you know, we're not talking about your like your Danny Bowens or your anything like that. We're talking about like old school Chinese American uh cuisine. How d how did this happen that we have a cuisine that is neither cooked by the those uh the people who are making so people who own the Chinese restaurant, the recent immigrants, as you put it normally, not although some of them three, four generations have been having these Chinese restaurants, especially some of the older, more important ones.
+
+[6:47] But they don't cook this food at home, right? For their family, typically. Typically, uh and y and yet yet here it exists. It's almost like a synthesized cuisine. It's super interesting, unlike Italian American cuisine, right?
+
+[7:00] Where Italian Americans actually cook that stuff at home. Everybody does. Who doesn't make like lasagna? Yeah, yeah, you know, a point bomb. Anyway, but like the but the point is that like that style of of food exists as a living home cuisine and as a restaurant cuisine.
+
+[7:14] Yeah, and it's not just that, but it's like everything around the menu too. You've got the whole sort of format of the meal, you've got the takeout box, you have fortune cookies, you've got sauce packets, you've got like the aesthetic. Um we're not gonna we're not gonna I mean I mean by my my point is like it's it's this whole thing that got developed, and like yeah, I mean it's just sort of like this crazy story behind it. Yeah, so the the the the thing is how'd that happen? That's the that's what this that's what the exhibit's about.
+
+[7:40] Yeah. How did this happen? Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And it's uh it's gonna be tied into a launch of our non-brick and mortar uh based uh web presence as well.
+
+[7:50] Right. Yeah, so we're gonna have uh beautiful menu collection, gonna have tastings, which is gonna be a first for us, actual food. Putting the food back in the museum of food and drink. Yeah, yeah. And then uh Peter's like, uh there'll still be pellets.
+
+[8:04] Don't worry, for all of you pellotized people out there, there will still be pellets. And uh we're gonna keep the stink machines going. Yeah, stink machines, some of the stink machines. Yeah, and and uh I saw that in the chat room, somebody had a problem with it last time with it all smelling like popcorn pyrazine, whatever, but we fixed that. So um sorry about that.
+
+[8:21] Yeah, it's like sometimes those those valves are literally there's just like a little valve. Listen, uh thank God it wasn't the butyric acid. You know what I mean? The cheesy vomit. Yeah.
+
+[8:30] But my point is is that uh sometimes those valves get stuck open a little bit, and so we'd probably need to open and reseal the valves and to stop them from uh actually the valves when they're going wrong make a kind of a warrant white noise. Yeah, that's true. Like a little like a little mini Yeah, that's what I was going for. Little toot noise. Yeah.
+
+[8:48] Well, anyway, so uh we have a Kickstarter going for Chow right now, and uh you know, when you back the campaign, you get tickets to we're gonna have uh a a weekend opening for two days. It's gonna be on uh fourth and the fifth of November. Uh like for eating, not like chow. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
+
+[9:08] Yeah. Chow chow bella. Yeah. So not like that. Not like that.
+
+[9:13] Like chow. Like, I should make an ice cream called Chow Bella with like C H O W. Well, interestingly, something you'll learn if you show up at the exhibit is there used to be a uh um a uh a Chow Chopsui Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was uh that was basically just hacked up little pieces of dried fruit on top of the ice cream, and I have to say that sounds pretty good.
+
+[9:37] Yeah, man. You need to bring that one back. Yeah. Nastassi, what are your feelings on chewy things on your ice cream? Uh that sounds good.
+
+[9:44] They gummy bears. Well, not that chewy, but yeah, like of that order. But in other words, like in general, like typically for me on an ice cream, I prefer things that like pop and break rather than things that chew. What about what about like Chendle or like Southeast Asian ice desserts? I can deal.
+
+[10:04] I'm not I'm never like I can deal, I can enjoy something like that. Or like for instance, like mochi. I love mochi. Oh, that's chewy ice cream. I got you.
+
+[10:14] All right, that's fair. But it's in your left and around. It's like a thing, but like like a big like like a big like grated ice thing with like the with like the cream and stuff and beans. I like it. I like it.
+
+[10:24] I like it. I I enjoy having them, but I'm never like, hey, you know what I'm gonna go out and get right now? Do you know what would really fix me up right now that. Right. For you it'd actually be a half a grapefruit and a block of cheese.
+
+[10:35] Uh sorry. Sorry. Five and a half grapefruits. I really, people out there, I really really don't know. I really, really like grapefruits.
+
+[10:46] You ever wake up in the morning and you're like, I need grapefruit. That's not what happens to you? No, yeah. I love grapefruit. Joe, you like grapefruit?
+
+[10:51] It's a high quality fruit. But anyway, let me just get this out. Well, it's strangely, like a lot of the ones you buy are incredibly poor quality. Like it's just like it's like it's not violently uh like nauseating the way that a bad pistachio is. But when you by the way, the way I eat grapefruits, I don't do that like, you know, I don't do that like American 50s thing, cutting them in half and stuff.
+
+[11:15] I just peel them and eat them. But like my point is is that like there's something very like just so disappointing about a bad grapefruit, the one where it's just thin, there's no sweetness, all acid, slightly bitter, too much pith. It's just so disappointing. Especially the ones that are not like juicy when they get dry. Oh my god.
+
+[11:36] Oh my god. And you can see the the segments kind of break apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just look at it and you're so sad. First of all, you paid two bucks for that thing.
+
+[11:43] Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And then you and you and you know, you're a reasonably smart person, right? I hope we're all reasonably smart people. So when you pick up the grapefruit, you you're picking one that's not too spongy, right?
+
+[11:53] I mean, you know, look bearing in mind that you know whether it's a California or a Florida grapefruit, so you know what the fundamental skin thickness should be. You're trying to heft the fruit itself to see whether or not it contains enough water and make that judgment. You make that judgment and you get home, and when you still have garbage, like with all of the thinking and the two dollars later, it's just so disappointing. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[12:16] I hate it. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah. So go to chow.mofad.org.
+
+[12:20] Chow is spelled C H O W, not the Italian way. Um and our kick at our Kickstarter, you can get tickets to the uh private opening of the exhibition. And uh David will be there. I'll be there. Yes, exactly.
+
+[12:29] Um and uh we'll have some fun surprises for people there, and then you get membership to the museum and you get to help us out with uh building the next show. So yeah, go to chow.mofad.org. Yeah, all right. So uh and now you can just be hate-filled Emperor Peter from here on out. Strike for the operational.
+
+[12:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, by the way, Peter and I almost always only talk to each other in Emperor Palpatine voice. Yeah, yeah. Which sometimes can fade into like stereotypical Jewish grandmother. Wow.
+
+[13:04] Wow. I never really thought about it. You could do that for me. I'm not gonna put you on the spot. If you feel it, if you feel it later in the show, you can you can do it.
+
+[13:13] Yeah. But I mean, I'm not I don't want to put that's like a lot to put you on the spot for. Yeah, yeah. So you know, so Joe, what do you what are you working on now? So I'm just here to support cooking issues.
+
+[13:23] Oh, come on now. You gotta if you're on the show, you gotta tell like give us like uh what are you working on? Anything that you can talk about? Nothing I can talk about. I'd have to kill you.
+
+[13:30] Well, I'm sure many people would many, many, many men wish death upon me to bring out you some who's that was it? You don't know that song? Many men wish death upon me? No. Many, many men.
+
+[13:41] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh wait, you say we got a call, Dave? Yeah, you want to take a call? Yeah, let's do it.
+
+[13:46] Oh, by the way, uh, call in your appliance design related questions to Joe Zikowski. I believe this is sous vide related. Oh, here we go. All right, I know how to do that. Caller.
+
+[13:55] You are hello. Hey. Yeah, um first question. I I just sent the recipe um uh into the Heritage Radio email address. It's um for Poe Decram.
+
+[14:08] It's basically homemade chocolate pudding. Right, right. But the recipe is is how to do it without using the sous vide machine and I just needed your best guess for a um time and tempt to do it sous vide because while it comes out great the stir standing there and staring for at least 20 minutes is just a more than a pain. Yeah so I mean I don't have the recipe in front of me because it's on the computer but uh most of those set custards are in the 80s range Celsius uh like so like for instance like when I'm doing so uh it depends on how much stuff you have in it right like it all depends on the solids ratio but so something that's very liquidy that you don't want to set like a creme anglaise I'll do it like 82 Celsius but that that'll only be for like 15 minutes and if you were to rock that that way for uh an hour it wouldn't quite set but it would be close to set no but you're gonna have a much higher uh egg ratio probably in uh in in your custard and so I would guess my guess is you're gonna want to be somewhere around 85 C and if it's in a small ramekin situation I'm assuming when you mean sous vide you mean like in a combi oven like in a ramekin uh uh that or in a steam oven which by the way I hear I hear uh who was it I think Cuisinart makes uh uh countertop steam oven now that is correct yeah and I hear it's pretty good it's great how low a temperature Joe can that go to do you know it can prove it can prove so if you had one of those you could probably steam set a low temperature of a pot of creme uh and I would hit it in the 85 C range uh and depending on how thick it is usually I'm doing them in relatively thin ramekins um I would probably go on on the order of uh half hour to forty minutes. But Joe, do you actually have you done that recipe in one of those ovens?
+
+[16:00] I have not. Well maybe we can find out a recipe and get back to you. You know John Deragon, formerly of uh Please Don't Tell the Bar, uh has one of those Queznard ovens and he was uh going off on how it was the you know the the greatest thing that's ever happened to him. Do you know what the MSRP on those things is? Roughly 150?
+
+[16:19] That's cheap. It's cheap. That's my best guess. What do you you fill it on the side like a coffee maker? How do you put the water into it?
+
+[16:27] It just comes with an infinite amount of water. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah sure anyway. Alright so uh is this answering your question I hope? Uh um well that's that's pretty good um pretty clear for that first question and then I have a completely separate second question. Alrighty also sous V related I'm trying I'm working on a recipe to do uh a pork roast with pork and cranberry um sous vide I made at it I didn't quite use enough salt and it just wasn't really really tasty.
+
+[17:02] And I also didn't pre-brown it the second try I used what what was clearly too much salt but I also uh I brown the heck out of it before I put it in the bag and it got that porky taste like the that sort of unpleasant porky hint. Right now are you vacuuming it or are you ziplocking it? Uh vacuuming it. Huh because I would usually that porky taste usually is a fat breakdown oxidation kind of a situation so I would have assumed that a vacuum bag would take care of that, unless how'd you s how do you how'd you brown it? Well, I just um I just I haven't I've had my baking still popped in my grill for forever, so I just got that as hot as it would get and hit it on you know all four of the major sides.
+
+[17:47] That's unusual. I would guess y usually um what's considered not pleasant animal flavors come from fat oxidation. Um and typically I mean, I I i and you did a hard vac on it? It was a hard vacuum? Uh well no, it uh it's a food saver.
+
+[18:08] Yeah. I mean, that should be enough to get rid of enough. I mean, like that would be my guess. I don't know, maybe someone in the chat room, Dave, can uh has any sort of uh uh stuff on this happening. Like uh how were the cranberries?
+
+[18:19] Did you pre cook the cranberries or were you using dried cranberries? Uh no, I usually I was um so I I put salt and pepper on it, let it sit for a day or two. Uh-huh. Um vacuumed uh v vacuumed it down for that, and then I uh opened it up, uh brushed whatever salt was with on the outside, which basically did all absorbed. Um uh put it um browned it and put it in an in a fresh bag with the pork and cranberries.
+
+[18:50] Oh, but the so but the cranberries were pre cooked? Uh no, the c no the cranberries were dried. Dried. You know how they make those dried cranberries? They squish the cranberry juice out of them and then they use the skins and then they mix the skins with a boatload of sugar.
+
+[19:04] Well, I mean, I you know I don't mind them. I I love them. I'm just like saying, like that's how they make 'em. They just really work for several recipes we we we cook with. I mean, I I realize they're not really health food.
+
+[19:15] I don't know. I don't really care about yeah, I'm not a health food kind of a guy. I'm just saying it's like it's kind of it's like it's it's like one of those actually I think it's f genius. These guys took what is fundamentally a byproduct and they turned it into something that I'm you know, I enjoy eating. My kids enjoy eating, that's even rarer.
+
+[19:32] You know what I mean? And I think that they they are useful in respirations. Yeah. Well the only thing I understand picky children. The other thing about those, uh if you were to use uh even if you were to actually dehydrate your own cranberries, which by the way, like I've never tried to eat one of my Christmas uh strings before, but like uh Peter, you ever eaten one of your Christmas strings when you were a kid?
+
+[19:52] Did you do the cranberries and popcorn? No. Nastasia, did you eat cranberries and popcorn when you were a kid? No. Dried squeeze out.
+
+[19:58] None of you guys, Dave? Never heard of that. Never heard you never heard of it. Took a needle and thread and popcorn and cranberries? Yeah.
+
+[20:05] Anyway, this stuff when it's left over is like worse than work. I don't know. Anyway, the point is that the dried skins are good because they don't get all big and nasty. What are your guys' thoughts on inflated raisins and stews? Love.
+
+[20:16] Love? Yeah. When I was a kid, I was freaked out by 'em because my mom would put the raisins into the stew. And then uh I was like, oh, raisins. I understand what a raisin is.
+
+[20:26] And then it came out as a half grape. It wasn't like fully a grape anymore, but it wasn't a raisin anymore. And I was like, ah, ah. And so like my whole life, like I've learned to like because they taste good. Like just like like strictly speaking, they taste good.
+
+[20:39] And so like uh but anyway, I don't know. It's a weird another weird mental problem I have, I guess. You know what I mean? You never had something shock you when you were a kid and it sticks with you for years. That's like I feel like that's Nastasia's whole life.
+
+[20:51] I I never like chocolate milk because I have this memory in elementary school of being spilled like everywhere on the lunchroom table and being grossed out by that. By you? Did you spill it dice? No, it wasn't my fault. Mm-hmm.
+
+[21:01] And you still remember that to this day, huh? Yeah, just like pooling in the lunch tray, like ugh. That's nasty. I can remember biting brown pool. I can remember biting into a uh cream-filled donut that was moldy, and that I wasn't able to eat cream filling for almost a decade.
+
+[21:18] Uh I was very small. But I still remember, I remember where I was. I was uh I was in uh a a waiting room next to the truck full of nuts at the 168th Street Columbia Presbyterian Hospital while my where my mom had gotten me something to eat while she was gonna go do uh uh something for her internship, and I just remember sitting at this freaking chair at 168th Street and biting into this freaking moldy This is horrifying. Yeah. Well, as you know, I don't really care about there being mold on my food.
+
+[21:47] So yeah, he loves it. I can remember my mom frying parsnip chips upstairs uh for some holiday, and I I was violently ill at the time and associating the smell of frying parsnips with throwing up, and I still to this day, like a lot of veg chips, I'm like, eh, no, thanks. No, thank you. You know what I mean? It's like they taste good, but it's just it's still got that kind of violent association with them.
+
+[22:11] Again, this is Nastasi's whole life though. Like she'll associate whole cities with hanging out with a person she didn't like. I mean, I'm talking as an adult, I'm not talking about as a kid. Civilization. There's a billion of you.
+
+[22:26] There's a there's a billion of you out there. If she met one of you and had a bad time, you're all you're all painted with the same brush. Yep. That's that's uh Well, and not just the billion that exists now, but the billions that have existed before them as well. And the future billions.
+
+[22:41] You know, it's like yeah. Yeah, very strong. Anyway, so back to this question. I don't know what's causing the porkiness. My assumption is that you maybe you had a piece of pork with uh more fat and it was already slightly oxidized before it went into the bag.
+
+[22:56] Um I have also done stocks and sometimes they come out more or less porky, but I don't know whether it's having to do with the actual um uh characteristics of the meat that went in. I think you're you're protecting it as well as you can by uh vacing it. You want to chill it and vac it as soon as you can. I mean, what I typically do, uh what I used to do when I wanted to vac something right after a sear down was um I would uh put the I would sear it, throw it into a bag, and then immerse that bag unsealed in ice water uh to chill down the meat, and then I would uh then you could seal it really quickly. Another thing is is you might want to consider I mean, i i if it's a recurring thing, then it's clearly just you're getting some sort of uh uh reaction where uh just the initial sear, maybe the sear was at maybe even I hate to say it's too high a temperature and you're getting some off flavors uh from it.
+
+[23:51] Uh you could do it on unsear, but you're just gonna have to put a hard sear on afterwards. And when you do it that way, you know you're not gonna get any oxidation from the initial sear down. So typically remember, uh especially for things like beef or things like short ribs, uh which is beef, uh like uh I would recommend um the only one I never say never to sear beforehand is duck breasts. Never never sear the duck breast beforehand because it it you need it to stay flat so that you can crisp it up in the pan later. But um uh I I would say uh always sear afterwards.
+
+[24:24] Always sear afterwards. They that was always part of part of the plan. I was trying to get it uh put a pre-sear on too, and you know, you get more flavor of it actually in the meat. That's true. I'm a firm believer in that because but the thing is is that maybe this maybe the sear, so I I don't know, I don't have like which which cut of pork was it?
+
+[24:44] Uh uh shoulder. Yeah. Bone and shoulder. So, you know, I haven't done uh I haven't done a lot of whole uh bone and shoulder. Um I've done some, but I'm doing them I was doing those things mainly more like uh like uh imitating like uh pulled pork or confio just salted, like not like heavy seared because I would leave skin on and then crisp up the skin afterwards, so that more of like or more like Kaluapig kind of a presentation uh of the shoulder.
+
+[25:10] So I haven't had a lot where I do like a hard sear all the way around. It might be that just uh long storage in the bag is uh with that initial sear is is cause causing it to happen. Um you know what I used to do that I don't do anymore? I used to when I was try I would trim all all the meat that I was gonna uh finally have as my portion, and then I would roast all the trim, just roast the hell out of all the trim, and then throw the trim in the bag to get the transfer of brown uh trim precook flavor into the meat as it was going on on long cooks, but as I get older I get lazier. So I I'm I'm planning to do this recipe for like a a 40-50 person party, so I'm I was trying to make it as streamlined as possible.
+
+[25:55] Yeah, yeah. I mean look, uh the good news about a shoulder is uh that it can stand a good bit of crisping on the on the you're serving it whole or you're shredding you're s you're what are you doing? You're you're cook you're gonna pull the piece is it skin on? Okay, so what what I'm what I'm planning to do is get skin on, cook it whole, brown it whole, and then and then shred it. Okay.
+
+[26:21] So you get so you get the little shredded bits mixed in with the rest of the pulled meat. Yeah, okay. So if you're gonna pull it, people like a little bit of texture textural variation, and I would say to streamline this, make your life easier, I would just get your salt levels right. Uh and then um I would, especially if you're gonna have the skin on it, because the skin's gonna pull and get all wonky, and you have a lot of fat there, and there's a lot of fat there that is relatively soft and prone to oxidation in the skin side of the uh uh in the sk in the skin there. So I would um I would cook it whole without searing it, and then I would pull it and I would do a hard sear at the finish because that's gonna crisp up the cracklings.
+
+[27:02] You need a certain amount of time uh afterwards, even if you've pre-seared, you need a certain amount of time to crisp the crackling up on the outside that you're gonna shred into it, and you might you it's gonna be more predictable. So like even if it's an effect where sometimes you sear it beforehand and you and you get the porky taste, and sometimes you don't if it's like a if it's uh a piece of meat specific kind of a situation, uh you know you can't predict it beforehand, and the worst thing is to have it not taste the way you want when you pull it out of the bag. Do you know what I'm saying? Uh trust me, I do. At the event.
+
+[27:30] So I would just do one more without it, and then try like a slightly slower uh like uh like render crisp sear on the uh on the pull out. Almost like sous vide for insurance. Um it's it's it's likely to be more predictable if I don't pre-sear. Yes. Got it.
+
+[27:47] That's well that's that's also less work, so that's great. Alrighty. Let us know how it works out. Thank you, sir. Alright, cool.
+
+[27:53] Dave, should we take a quick break? Uh yeah, we can do that. I'll just take a quick break and come back with more cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook.
+
+[28:23] Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides.
+
+[28:56] Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we're back. I mean, okay.
+
+[29:30] Anyway, he says, uh, a couple weeks ago I wrote in about trying to get a honey flavor in a lavender cocktail. I took your advice and it's been uh work been working on perfecting my cocktail. I'll update you on how it's going pretty soon. My issue today refers to something that Dave said on the show. Uh while discussing sweet tea, he said, I hate that stuff.
+
+[29:47] Uh Dave, I understand that you have years of experience in food and technology. I know your palate must be outstanding. Well, or at least it's mine. Uh, your knowledge is obviously immense, but how can I, a child of North Carolina who, by weight, has consumed more sweet tea than flour and water combined, trust you. I'm just curious what your issue with sweet tea is.
+
+[30:06] Do you dislike cold tea? Is it too sweet? Have you had a bitter glass that turned you off on it? What about cocktails? What about in cocktails or desserts?
+
+[30:15] I also like to use tea flavor in meat marinades occasionally. I get it. There's bad sweet tea, but please help me change your mind. I'll do whatever I can. All the best, Andrew.
+
+[30:25] Alright. Here's what I don't like, Andrew. Like I have no problem with cold, I like cold tea. I like cold tea with a modicum of sugar. I think the issue is is that like uh let's say I was going to uh North Carolina barbecue joint Eastern, of course, because I don't put tomato in my in my uh pork.
+
+[30:42] Whatever. Anyway, I'm not gonna get off it. I don't want to get you upset because I don't know where in North Carolina you're from. But the stuff that I enjoy the most, I enjoy all North Carolina barbecue, which is of course pork, and of course, with thin sauce vinegar base. I enjoy it all, but I enjoy mostly the more coastal variety that is fundamentally just like peppered, vinegar, uh, and meat.
+
+[31:06] Like that's like my style. Now, if you're gonna go to one of those kind of restaurants in Raleigh or wherever you're gonna go, and they have those uh kind of I'm looking at them right now, those kind of amber colored plastic pebbly glasses. Everyone knows what I'm talking about, right? With those things. And they have a jug of what uh is amounts to simple syrup with tea in it, and they pour it, and there's not even any acid because some of these places will not.
+
+[31:30] I know, I know, I know. No, some of these places won't put it like lemon even like next to it or with it, and you're just consuming simple syrup tea. I'm like, oh yeah, because I am a thirsty man. I am a thirsty man. Like that is something that I could enjoy.
+
+[31:44] Like take for instance, I like overly sweet mint tea. Like uh like Moroccan style, or like you know, like you you know, in Paris they have those uh like those Moroccan tea mint tea joints, Peter? Yeah, you like those? He's like he's shaking his head as though you can see his head shake on a microphone. But like the uh the point being that I like sweet tea things in tiny amounts.
+
+[32:10] Like same way that I like sweet beverages in tiny amounts. That's why cocktails, which are relatively small, can have some sugar in them without freaking me out. But when I am thirsty, I want to pound huge quant huge Trump style quantities of liquids. And so I require them to be not sweet. So iced tea that's a lot lower on sugar, I'm okay with.
+
+[32:32] I like it with a little lemon in it, that's just me. So it's not I I I should say it's not uh the idea of cold tea that I have a problem with. It's overly, overly sweet tea. Joe, what are your feelings on this? I agree with you.
+
+[32:43] I don't like it too sweet either. But do you find that a lot of places will serve it too sweet? Uh way too sweet. Way too sweet, right? Too much sugar.
+
+[32:49] Too much, too much freaking sugar. Too much sugar's not good for you. Well, I don't like I said, I've said before, my health, you know, you know, I just don't like it. That's my thing. What do you do you like cold?
+
+[33:00] You like iced tea? No, not really. Wow. Well, Andrew can hate on you, it's alright, but what do you not like about it? I just don't prefer it.
+
+[33:08] Don't prefer drinking it. Don't prefer drinking it. Yeah. What does that mean? Like, I wouldn't choose it.
+
+[33:14] Like over nothing? Over nothing, sure, I'll drink it. Alright. Peter, sweet tea? Uh, not my not really my jam.
+
+[33:22] Do you but like I look, I can appreciate Andrew's position here as a cultural thing. It's sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, when I when I, you know, just not too sweet, that's all. Yeah.
+
+[33:31] You're like, okay, whatever. You guys are the worst. Brandon writes in, hi Nastasia. Follow up. Uh I sent my last email before listening to the episode of that.
+
+[33:41] I shouldn't have read that because you don't know what he's talking about. Uh something to add to the discussion about tropical tasting fruits that grow in temperate regions. So this is uh we were talking about the Mayapple, which is the jelly I make where actually that jelly was delicious. Did I bring the jelly in or just the raw fruit for you guys to taste? I think it's just the raw fruit.
+
+[33:56] Nastasia wouldn't taste it because she got no stones. No stones. Not willing to risk her life for good tasting materials. Um, uh this episode is really uh this uh is really late comment considering that episode was in June, but I figured that uh Nastasia and Dave and the gang uh did not mention the pawpaw tree. Uh if you have not heard of it, the pawpaw is native to a large propor a large portion of the United States and is to my knowledge one of the only truly tropical like fruits that grows in the temperate regions of the U.S.
+
+[34:25] In uh size, shape, and texture, it is similar to a mango, but the taste is kind of a cross between a mango and a banana. Pretty delicious, but very difficult to find. Well, I do know about them, but I haven't really had a lot because they're very hard to ship. Uh I'm uh only fortuitous enough to have tried it because my architecture and landscape firm uh specified it in one of our projects. I don't have any questions.
+
+[34:44] I'm just writing a share and figure you all be interested in one of the most under-the-radar delicious fruits that is native to the U.S. So look, about a month ago, I didn't know you were doing this. I called this guy who has these pawpaw nurseries, but the problem is is that I couldn't find someone who would ship me a good pawpaw tree because I'm planning on planting some to see how they uh to see how they they work. You have pawpaws, John? No, in Connecticut, are you doing that?
+
+[35:05] Yeah, yeah. They grow in Connecticut. They grow, they're like like, you know, like uh Brandon was saying, they grow in most of the temperate regions. They don't ship very well. Like they're very soft and they don't ship very well, and I think they're relatively polarizing and the cultivars are relatively different, so it's kind of hard uh to um get get people to you know get into it as a as a commercial fruit.
+
+[35:29] But yes, I plan on uh sampling uh pawpaws. You ever what about you, Peter? You got any pawpaws? Your parents are now in tropical fruit land, not tropical, like California style subtropical fruit. Where they live now?
+
+[35:41] Outside San Diego. Of course, me, weather's nice, me. I told you there are studies that show that after two years you don't give a crap about the weather anymore. Like if someone asks you, is the weather nice where you are, you'd be like, Yeah, I love it. But like you don't rate yourself as happier because the weather is nice.
+
+[35:57] No. Nastasia, do you hate do you hate good weather because it makes people soft? Is that why you don't like is that why you like it here? Or is it that you just don't like the people in California and that's why you moved over here? I don't like the people in California.
+
+[36:11] Wow. All you Californians out there, I like you. But Nastasia, not so much. Right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[36:16] Yeah. Anyway. Uh and she's from there, so it's like one of those things where, you know, I always think self-hate's a little weird, but you know, you can't get down on someone for the self-hate, can you? Are you allowed to make fun of someone for self-hate? I don't know.
+
+[36:32] Peter, what are you how you what are your feelings on the self-date? I feel that you're allowed to have a lot of self-loathing like when you're in college. I feel that's what college is about. Like teenage years, the adolescence is about like becoming a better person through self-loathing. But I think you I feel you should grow out of it.
+
+[36:48] What do you think, Peter? No? Joe? Self loathing? I think it's more like after college you go through that phase, you know, and you're trying to find yourself or whatever.
+
+[36:56] Yeah. Well then you come out of it. Then you self-loathe for self-loathing. And that's multi-layered. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[37:05] Like, why am I 36 and still self-loathing? No, you tell me. You tell me. I'm sure it has something to do with the Museum of Food and Drink. Zing, it's funny because it's true.
+
+[37:18] All right. So I guess Davey just answered the question. It's okay to make fun of people who self-loathe. Learn by doing. How do you feel now?
+
+[37:29] You've got a big smile on your face. So there's the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[37:34] Hey, look, you know what? Peter can take it. That's why I like working with him. I don't like working with people who can't take it. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[37:43] What do you think, Sas? What do you think about people that are working with people that can't take it? I don't like it. You don't like it. Crying thing, the whole like I need therapy thing.
+
+[37:52] Oh man, you no, that's not right. If someone needs thesis. Yeah, that's not right. I just like working with people that can give and get. I don't like people that can dish it out and can't take it.
+
+[38:04] God knows I take enough. God knows I dish enough out. Right? All right, listen. So we had some in more information on uh the butter question we had before.
+
+[38:16] So to to to re you know, tell you what happened. Uh we had uh uh James from uh Cafe Bezzalou in I think Seattle uh was having a problem with batch to batch, his butter was uh brittle h you know, his butter was but butter was brittle. So he couldn't make uh like puff pastry or a croissant or anything like this because as he was stretching the dough, the butter would shatter into pieces and wouldn't stretch along with the dough, right? And so uh, you know, he had thought that it had something to do with um maybe the feet of the animal or or uh you know the crystal size. So I wrote to uh Professor uh Doug Goff, who is like, you know, uh one of the big wigs does the ice cream stuff at the University of Guelph.
+
+[38:58] Uh is that how you pronounce that place? Guelph? Gelf? I have no idea. Guelph?
+
+[39:02] Gelf, Guelph, Gelf, Guelph. Anyway, they have great dairy pages, and uh I've read them for many years. I really enjoy them. Uh and so I wrote them and I gave him the question, and here's what he he wrote. He wrote, Hey Dave, I have forwarded your question to one of our faculty members with expertise in lipid technology, which is a fantastic thing.
+
+[39:21] I did not hear from the lipid technologist, which would be a fantastic title. So you may see a reply from him. But he tells me, which I did not, uh, he tells me that from his experience, uh, this is not uncommon. Bit the brittle britter brittle butter problem. Hey, say that with a stupid voice, Peter.
+
+[39:39] You're good at that. I'm not doing I'm not following this chat, man. Come on, man. Say it in your in your uh I'm announcing the puffing gun voice. Britter brit brittle butter.
+
+[39:52] You have you have a good like weird announcer voice. I do that, like I roll the eye. You do. You still you know what I'm talking about, Nastasia. Brrr brittle butter!
+
+[40:00] That's more like me at the beginning of the top of the show. Yeah, I know. You know what Dax every once in a while is like uh do the do the beginning of the show. I'm like, no, I'm in the middle of like the house. You can't scream, we have neighbors.
+
+[40:11] Anyway, uh he tells me from experience that this is not uncommon. It is most likely related to fat crystal size and structure within the butter rather uh than composition variation. When butter is manufactured, one of the objectives of cream tempering, churning and working, is to achieve very small fat crystals, which then relates to smoother texture consistor uh consistency and pliability. The exact temperatures and times of these stages does relate to composition, and that can vary by feed, etc. After manufacture, many uh factors, including temperature variation during storage, delivery, and/or the age of the butter, and that's also important, the age of the butter, uh, and I'll get more on that later, can cause an increase in fat crystal size.
+
+[40:51] As this happens, butter becomes progressively more coarse in texture and brittle in structure. Think about melting butter uh to oil and then putting it in the refrigerator to recrystallize. You get a very hard brittle lump because it was not properly churned and worked. This would be the extreme. So the variation in quality is structure/slash texture related, and not really primarily uh difference in the different kinds of triglycerides that are in the uh butter.
+
+[41:16] So that he says, I hope this helps. Doug Gough. It did help. Uh so I wrote him and said, Thank you, Professor. And then I said this.
+
+[41:24] Uh I said I'll let you know if I hear from your colleague, which I did not. Uh I'm pondering your response in pondering your response. This is me. I wonder whether mechanical manipulation could help. Whenever I'm going to use butter in biscuits or cake and don't have time to let it temper, I beat it repeatedly with a rolling pin.
+
+[41:39] I've always noticed that this plasticizes the butter. How much of that change is frictional heating, probably only a small amount, I do not know. Could the effect of beating the cold butter help these folks, i.e., uh, you know, you guys at Cafe Bezzalou, um, or is the effect too macro and wouldn't help them on the smaller scale of a puff paste? And he said, that might help, Dave, could be worth a try at least. So I would try taking uh some of the butter that is not working properly and beating the beating the bejesus out of it.
+
+[42:09] Um but then I I saw an article which is available free of charge on the internet that you need to read called The Effective Factors. Get ready. Write this one down. The effective factors on the structure of butter and other milk fat based products by Stein, I guess how do you pronounce the O with a slash through it? Oh, right?
+
+[42:28] Runhut. R O with a slash through it, N-O-L uh N uh H O L T, September um 2013. This article is terrible in the sense that what they really care about is uh producing lower fat butter, which as we all know is a horrible idea. Horrible, horrible. Uh but it's a good article in that it talks about every stage step by step and what it does to frat fat crystal size, and it has the uh extreme advantage of being available on the internet.
+
+[42:57] So uh as you um store butter and the temperature goes up, like let's say it's been tempered up to uh 20 and then re-cooled and done a bunch of times. The um the s a lot of the smaller crystals and the ones with the um lower melting points will melt out to a liquid, even though the butter maintains its solid state, and then on recrystallization slowly in the fridge will get progressively larger crystals, which may be causing uh some brittleness. Crystal size just increases with time as as butter ages in the fridge, so maybe the brittle butter is older butter, uh, but maybe beating the heck out of it actually uh might help. So uh they're gonna kick us off the air in in a minute, but Nastasi and I uh actually I think Nastasia actually enjoyed this trip, which is unusual. Nastasia usually hates most everything.
+
+[43:39] We went to Saratoga Springs. Joe, you ever been to Saratoga Springs? Yes, I have. For for the horse racing or for the water? I've been there during the horse racing time, but I didn't go to the horse races.
+
+[43:47] Did you what were you doing there? Sh just with my wife and children. Did you try the waters? Did you go to the spa state park? I did not go to the spa state park.
+
+[43:54] Oh my goodness. Peter, have you ever been to Saratoga Springs? No. I'm gonna go back because uh so here's the deal. They have uh in Saratoga Springs, their naturally carbonated water comes out of the ground.
+
+[43:59] I want that to sink in for a minute. Naturally carbonated water comes out of the ground. So uh and the naturally carbonated water is actually very highly mineralized in saline. So Anastasia uh uh um Ariel who was on the show last week, and my brother-in-law Travis, who is shooting uh shooting it for because we're supposed to write something for Lucky Peach. We went and tasted every one of the natural springs in Saratoga.
+
+[44:32] The one on the race course was closed. We couldn't go to it. Is that the two? Which is the other one? Lake.
+
+[44:37] Oh, yeah, there's one in a lake. I went back there later this the afternoon with bathing shorts on, and I just couldn't bring myself to weigh it in. How long were you there? I stayed, I figure I how often do I get to go there? I went and retasted a lot of the waters.
+
+[44:50] Uh anyway, so like this water is pretty amazing because uh it's very old, very deep groundwater that is super heavily mineralized and saline, and it gets forced up to the surface, close to the surface through a fault uh that runs down through Saratoga that's relatively recent. The fault has uh CO2 coming all the way from uh the mantle that goes up and pushes the stuff up and charges, and as it comes up, it's mixing with more recent, like kind of uh recharged rainwater, meteoric water. And there's a the interesting thing is there's a shale layer at the top of the ground there that caps it all in, so it's all under pressure. So when you bore down in, it self-pumps itself up. So it's not strictly speaking an artesian well like you would get where you're actually digging a well where the head of the well is is below the water table and you're recharging from a mountain, let's say.
+
+[45:42] It's literally getting forced up and carbonated from below. But unlike a lot of carbonated springs, it's also co cool. It's at 50 degrees Fahrenheit. And I think they're delicious. Stasy, you liked it too, right?
+
+[45:53] I brought your bottle, by the way. I think they're delicious. They're super highly mineralized. I made a margarita with the strongest of the waters yesterday. I want to go back, but I have a plea for any all ninety-nine, almost all, in fact, maybe all in the United States, uh, naturally carbonated springs are in the West, where there's more thermal activity.
+
+[46:12] But if anyone here, I know there's some in Colorado, I know there's some in California. If any of you live near a naturally carbonated spring and for some reason you like us, just get a seltzer bottle, like a water like a like a carbonated water bottle, fill it up all the way, all the way, because otherwise we'll you lose too much food partial pressure, cap it and send it to us and we'll taste and talk about your water on the uh on the air. I'm super interested in tasting just various naturally carbonated waters from all uh all over the country. But more on Saratoga when I write it up for Lucky Peach and go visit Saratoga. Good place.
+
+[46:46] Thanks, Joe, thanks, Peter. See you next time. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritage radio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[47:12] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolti, host of The Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, well, this time like 1215 to like one o'clock on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria. Where, Peter? Uh Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn, dude.
+
+[0:47] Oh, at Robert's. Dude, what's the neighborhood in Brooklyn where we are? Bushwick. Well, as you can tell, joined by an ever Peppy Peter Kim, Grand Vizier of the Museum of Food and Drink. Got uh Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:05] How are you doing? What up, doing good. Alright, good. And we have Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez next to me. How you doing?
+
+[1:12] Good. So la uh calling your questions, museum related perhaps or not. Uh to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh so yesterday was the first day in the closing week festivities of uh Booker and Dax the Bar.
+
+[1:32] And uh man, I think people had a good time, but man, was it a poop show? We like 86 everything like right away. Like they took the chairs out, so like the bar was three deep. Uh and uh it turns out that n I don't know how to operate the POS system. Like all these drinks, just like it was just like uh I think it was good though.
+
+[1:53] People had a good time. We had to 86, a bunch of stuff. Um, but uh last night we had uh D came back to you know, our manager D. Canonis came back uh as a guest bartender. We had um Ann Robinson came back, uh Jesse Vita came back, Austin Henley came back and told me an interesting story about uh you will enjoy this, Nastasia, about Damon Bolti.
+
+[2:19] What about him? So I did I I guess I didn't I I knew it, but I didn't think about it. Southern Teague who's coming tonight, by the way. So if you come tonight, we have like Nick Bennett, Souther Teague uh coming uh tonight to Booker Index, um, who else? Dana Corey, uh forget who I'm not I'm not mentioning a couple people.
+
+[2:36] I gotta look at Nastasia will look at the list, maybe if she she feels like it. Um tomorrow we have David Wonderich and uh Leo Robochek and uh Don Lee coming uh to the bar, so look out for that. Uh but anyway, so Austin says to me, Austin says, so I was doing uh Damon's show at Roberta's with Southern, because Southern co-hosts, right? Yeah, so he's doing the show, and you know, Damon Bolti's identical twin, which you talk about a lot, Nastassi, you like that factor. Whenever you mention Damon Bolti, you mentioned the identical twinness.
+
+[3:08] And there are too many freaking food and drink identical twins in the New York City area. There's just too many of them. It's crazy, right? I mean, like, in other words, have you I have not met an identical twin that doesn't have one of the twins working in the food food business. Someone needs to do a study on this.
+
+[3:22] Have you met any identical twins, Peter, that are not in the food business? No. Is it because we only know people in the food business? You know lawyer people. Nastasi, you know like weirdos, weird non-food people, right?
+
+[3:33] Do you know any identical twins in that scenario? I I know one. I think about it, I know one. Medicine and architecture. Not food.
+
+[3:41] Anyway, so Damon Bolti's twin comes in, and apparently everyone reverts is like, hey, what's up? He totally ignores him, pulls Anastasia, like sour face and blasts right past him. And then when Damon walks in, everyone's like, Damon, why are you such a jerk, man? He's like, That was my twin. That was a good story, right?
+
+[3:58] Good times. Anyway, so uh also turns out also turns out, going back to Booker and Dex, uh, that the the jerks that live above Booker and X, like haven't lived there as long as the bar has existed, and start complaining at like 11 and smashing things into the floor to tell us to be quiet. Now, I don't know about you, but you don't turn blow the whistle down. You know what I mean? If you're playing blow the whistle or any one of those other songs, and you're mixing drinks and your bar is three deep, the correct response is not turn the music down.
+
+[4:32] The correct response is don't move to New York and live above a bar, moron! You know what I mean? Idiot. Who who does that? Like, that's what I hate about New Yorkers.
+
+[4:42] Like, not New York, real new, like you just wouldn't move if you if you you are not entitled to change the people who already exist around you. Do you know what I mean? You move into a place, the place is bad because there is uh it's not like it's not like all of a sudden, okay. Look, I've done this a bunch of times, right? I'll move into a place, and the person who lived in my apartment before me is was like an 85-year-old woman who lived alone and never had any visitors because her kids never came to visit her anymore.
+
+[5:12] She made zero noise her entire life, like, you know, I don't know, didn't watch TV, no cable, nothing. No noise, nothing. She dies, we move in with like the kids and me, and you know, the dinner parties, the family dinner and all this stuff, and everyone gets mad. And you know what? I kind of understand that, except for you live in New York.
+
+[5:31] Like you're not entitled to your kind of super quiet privacy, nice life. That's why it's New York. Nastasi, what do you think about this? I think yeah. I mean, like, do you I mean, like, there's bounds of rationality, but like living directly above a bar that you moved into.
+
+[5:53] Did they move in after you were there? Yes. All right, well then. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:59] Living in the city. Trade offs. Well, it's not a tree. It's like just like, you know, understand what you're dealing with when you move in. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:06] Like, some people shouldn't live in the city. Like, apparently, these frat weasels who moved in to this, like, I think there's like 30 of them living in this apartment above uh going all uh against frat people. But you know what I'm saying? There's 30 of them living in this place above us. And then uh I don't know, whatever.
+
+[6:22] Just suck it up. You know what? Whatever. So anyway, Peter, you're on here to push the museum of food and drink. The only 10 years.
+
+[6:31] What's that? Yeah. Only 100. So we need it in one day. Right.
+
+[6:35] So we just need two cooking issues listeners to donate 5,000 each. Yeah, and even beyond that, it's the last chance to get tickets to see the exhibition before it opens to the public. And so it's going on until 8 p.m. tomorrow, and we need to cross the finish line of $80,000 by tomorrow. Um I'm super psyched about the exhibition.
+
+[6:54] We're gonna have, I mean, just to recap, we're gonna have the fortune cooking machine, we're gonna have tastings, we'll be demonstrating some different techniques in Chinese American cuisine. We'll have some awesome menus, giant wall of takeout boxes. Um so yeah, it's gonna be like just you know, awesome show. And so get your tickets on uh chow.mofed.org. And we're gonna we're gonna chain Peter to something, you can just pillory him.
+
+[7:16] Like that's gonna be one of the things. We will set up a dunk tank with Peter in it. Wouldn't that be awesome? Oh my god, Peter, you should totally do that. Like a Peter Kim dunk tank.
+
+[7:24] Yeah. You think we can. How is that Chinese? I don't know. It has nothing to do with that.
+
+[7:29] It's like part of the little side exhibition. If somebody puts in ten thousand dollars, I will set up a dunk tank. You heard anything. Will you get in it, Dave? Hell no.
+
+[7:37] I will set up a I'll get into it. Bleeping dunk tank, yeah. Family show. I said bleeping. All right.
+
+[7:44] Pretty soon actually we have the non family show from Johnny Walker coming up. I gotta talk about it first. By the way, Nastasi, you'll enjoy this. Uh the dry the name, this Latin name for for you know the beans with beans. You familiar with it?
+
+[7:56] You're gonna enjoy it. Fazeolis vulgaris. You like that? All right. Let me get to some uh get to some questions.
+
+[8:04] If I would be smart enough to pull them up. Okay. Um, this is from Shy. Uh it is well known that old beans take longer to cook than young beans. Why is that?
+
+[8:17] Well, I thought I knew the answer to this question. And uh it turns out that I don't know the answer to this question. I know you think it's just kind of a a moisture thing, but um that doesn't really explain that doesn't really, I don't think, explain what what's going on. Then I did uh an initial search on the internets, and uh like all every manufacturer and uh like council that tries to sell dried beans will tell you if you store the beans too long, they say in quotes, they will never soften. Now I know that's garbage because you can pressure the heck out of them and soften them.
+
+[8:52] You could add baking soda and soften them. But then I realized I didn't understand, it's not simply that it's drying out, something else is happening. So I have to I have the the short answer is I have to go um I have to go look it up. And it you know, I'll I'll have to go do some sort of uh you know uh scientific search on the order of um um you know dry beans storage chain storage changes. Like it's always like people who have the money for these sorts of studies are always uh kind of big industrial concerns, and so you always add things like storage, shelf life, dried beans.
+
+[9:28] You try to hit it as you try to phrase your searches. This is by the way, anyone who actually wants to find their own info, right? Uh you like I I found out um um Ariel uh Johnson who was here uh a couple weeks ago that there is a website, and I'm sure you know all of you guys, all you cool kids out there uh already know about it, but it's um and I don't know like how legal slash illegal it is, but I'm gonna give you guys uh this website in case uh you don't already have it. It's Psy like Science, S-C-I-Hub, H-U-B dot C C. Okay?
+
+[10:07] That's S-C-I-H-U-B dot C C. And um this website allows you to download uh any almost any scientific paper that is behind a normal like university firewall. Now, it's not as easy to use as uh you know university thing because you need uh a record called the DOI. Now, uh what a DOI uh I don't actually know what it stands for, but it's a long, long identifier that uniquely identifies a particular uh article. Okay.
+
+[10:43] So how do you get that? So many, many, many of the either the university search engines or even the actual database owners like uh Wiley or El Sevier or these guys will allow you to search and get the abstracts. And a oftentimes you can get this identifier in the abstract, cut and paste it into the Sci Hub page, and boom, the paper pops up. Now, the legality, yeah, I haven't looked it up. I don't know.
+
+[11:09] What do you think, Peter? If I don't know, is it okay? Can I can I go can I go like Talmudic on this? If I have no idea whether it's illegal or not, it's okay to use it. You're the lawyer.
+
+[11:18] I think you get one one free pass. That's my official legal opinion. So I get a lifetime free pass on the on using this one thing. Like in other words, like I don't know if this is illegal, I'm not gonna look it up. Bang anyway, it's a fantastic way to go get it.
+
+[11:33] So um when you are searching for things, in general, the way to find information is to think about think about your problem and try to cast it in the most industrial light possible. So any sort of uh thing that you think that Campbell soup might care about, or anything that you think uh that you know uh you know Nabisco might care about, because these are the people that have money to pay for these kinds of studies. And that's in general how uh I find it. So I've I will this week is extremely tough for me because the the bar closing stuff, but I'm gonna try to look up more on that because it leads me to another thing. When I realized that I had no idea uh what was um going on with the dried beans, it also led me to uh uh a and also talking to and thinking about you know the time that Booker and Dax has been open and every time I've been cooking is the concept of uh drift.
+
+[12:28] And so and I've been thinking a lot about it uh recently. So you get drift in your your whole life, and what what does that mean? So you have like you come up with a recipe, you come up with a with a technique, you implement it, you teach it, then that goes on autopilot, and just like a game of telephone when you were a kid, you know, eventually there is drift in that technique, and there's drift in the in the end product. And so when you're running a restaurant or when you're running a bar, uh you know, you have to be you have to set um things in place to prevent your products, uh, your techniques, your recipes from drifting too far uh from you know from where you started. Often, I mean, sometimes drift is good.
+
+[13:13] Sometimes you start with something and the drift actually makes it better. Most of the time that's not the case. And even if it did make it better, you want to know why, and then codify that. So I think you know, a lot of um what I've been thinking about is that that kind of drift and control. And that's I think a couple weeks ago we talked about the Eric Repair story in Nastasia, where you know he has a very specific thing that will never drift, craft Swiss cheese, and so they use that craft Swiss cheese because that's palette drift.
+
+[13:39] That's about your drift of pallets over time and change, right? And so kind of locking into uh one idea to increase consistency. But the same is true, same drift happens in your own mind. So most of the time, like I know this is you know uh applies to me uh especially, or anyone that you know works on a problem for a small amount of time and then compartmentalizes that and then puts it away, right? And then you tend to think, oh, I solved that problem.
+
+[14:04] And Nastasia, you know this better than anyone. You've heard me say the same dang explanations like a billion times in demo to demo to demo. Yep. The problem is is that most of the time, you like your actual, you haven't done enough actual work at that beginning section to actually get the real answer, right? And you only marginally understand what you're talking about when you're actually doing all the hardcore work.
+
+[14:27] So then like two, three, four years later, right, all you have left in your head are the results, and you don't remember any of the caveats to the research that had you come up with those results, typically. So you'll think you have an idea locked down, and in fact, over the years, if you don't revisit it and look back into it again, you turns out you know almost nothing at this point. Uh and so you know, trying to one of the reasons this show is helpful for me personally to do it, is that people ask me questions that make me re-examine, and Harold McGee is awesome at this stuff, constantly re-examining things that you hold um dear or hold as just kind of truths, and re-examining them down to a base level to try to re-understand uh what you're doing and it because alm almost almost always, you know, you were wrong about something. Uh you were wrong about some of your premises or uh something like that. So the the bean thing got me thinking on that because it was something that you know I thought about a long time ago.
+
+[15:25] Oh yeah, they dry, they dry out as they get older, they get harder to cook. Clearly there's more going on, and I need to go freaking research that thing. And in fact, almost all the questions this week are of that variety, things that I thought uh I knew something about, and then I looked into it only marginally, feeling that I could just come back with a quick snappy-doodle answer, and and it turns out it's a much more complicated problem. I mean, if you leave a dried b bean out, like what humidity level does it get to at the end of the eventually. Well, that's the thing, right?
+
+[15:54] Let's say you live in, and this is something I don't know. Let's say you live in New Orleans, which is, you know, I don't know, not swamp, that's overstating it, but it's humid, right? So is it going to equilibrate to in other words, uh, even in a sealed environment where you're not uh where you're not losing a lot of moisture, right? I think the beans, they change over time. There's a str I think there's a structural thing going on, right?
+
+[16:17] So increased moisture absorption, if it's just moisture, this uh could be overcome relatively quicker, uh quickly with a longer cooking time. Or perhaps let's say, you know, you're a believer in this current no soak thing, uh a soak to increase or to retemper back up. But there's no indication on the dry bean. If that was the case, the dry bean council people would say, if you have some old beans, put like a moisture and paper towel in with the old beans for like a couple of weeks and then they'll be good as new again. Because that's how the bean council talks.
+
+[16:45] Uh have you have you met the bean council? Uh but that is in fact not what they say. I mean, now look, the other thing you have to be very careful of is downloading the new iOS on your phone because it no longer freaking works. I'm trying to reopen the question. What you have to be careful of is that the bean council has uh a vested interest in you throwing away your old beans and buying new ones.
+
+[17:04] In reality, though, what they should do is tell you how to fix your old beans, because if you fix your old beans and have success, you'd be like, you know what? I actually enjoy cooking dry beans. I will purchase more dry beans. You know what I mean? Where instead you're like, they tell me I should throw it away.
+
+[17:19] I'm gonna get this package of beans, I'm never gonna cook it, then it's gonna get too hard, I'm not gonna know whether or not it's still good, I'm not gonna sit around and try to cook these dried beans, and then they don't soften and then what, dinner's ruined? No. And then they throw it away and they never buy dried beans again. See? That's my feeling.
+
+[17:33] My feeling is is that if something appears like it's in your best interest, get people to throw away it and buy fresh beans. Sometimes it's not in your f in your best interest. The best interest is maybe there's an advantage to it. To what? The old beans?
+
+[17:43] Yeah, yeah, you never know. Well, it's like often. Like we have a question uh coming up soon on uh staling. And that, you know, so that's that's true. That I I love staled bread for other things.
+
+[17:52] We'll we'll we'll get to that uh in a in a minute. Uh about the new iOS. Have you downloaded it and stuff? I'm not allowed to. Please don't.
+
+[17:59] Like, I can't. I I was at a wedding uh on Sunday, and I'm like, oh, and then and my phone has been pestering me for weeks. Oh, update, why don't you update? You're going to sleep now. I could tell, can I update now?
+
+[18:10] And you're like, fine, fine. Jeez. Jeez. You hit it, it updates. And then it no longer operates like a f this is why I thought that when Steve Jobs died that I would be free of this sort of like tyranny of updates.
+
+[18:23] Um, of yeah, enforced changes to the way that I use uh my device. The horse is like, unless you do something, it's gonna update in 30 seconds. Yeah, right. Like so the ghost of Steve Jobs came back and caused me to not get pictures of my friend's wedding because I had gotten used to the fact that I could go shaboom and like take my phone and it turns into a camera instantly. I went, I did that, and then like sprays a bunch of garbage on the top of my screen.
+
+[18:47] It's like, press a button to continue. And then I pressed a button, but I obviously I press it too long. And Siri's like, may I help you? I was like, Well, can you take the picture of the you know the bride that I wanted freaking 10 seconds ago and not have it look like I'm texting during the middle of a wedding ceremony by typing on my phone like a lunatic? She was like, uh, I don't understand you, Dave.
+
+[19:06] You know what I mean? Jerks. Jerks. Um anyway, so uh I heard about that, man. You what a jerk, man.
+
+[19:12] Texting in the middle of the I know it. What kind of an what kind of a jerk shows up? It was a small, it's a small wedding, too. It's like you don't want it's like weight, man. It's wait.
+
+[19:19] It's not like it's an important moment. Yeah. It's not like the lady die wedding where I'm one of like eight billion people, and no one's like, you know, who's that idiot texting, and then they draw a bead on me like the snipers draw a bead on me or something like this. You know what I mean? It's the best thing is it it wasn't just like it looked like you were texting somebody, but having a really angry text discussion with somebody.
+
+[19:35] Oh, yeah, because you know what my face was looking like. I know exactly what you're talking about. Everyone else is like has this like you know, joy and like and then that is like stabbing at your phone. Yeah, that like I'm trying to I'm trying to use my eyes to drill holes through my telephone. Yeah.
+
+[19:48] Yeah. Nightmare. Okay, shy's second question. Additionally, how uh and why? What?
+
+[19:55] Why does the starch de gelatinization I assume you mean uh re-crystallization in stale bread cause it to have a chewy texture? And is this similar to moisture loss from whoarm bread exposed to the air? Uh which can also lead to such texture. Many thanks, Shy. No, uh, so moisture like uh staling is not uh moisture loss.
+
+[20:16] And again, bread staling is a very I'm gonna do the Trump sniff from now on. Uh yeah. Yeah, uh staling of bread is not primarily a David going to jail. Well, yes. Uh but yes.
+
+[20:33] Anyway, the um uh staling is not uh I mean I'm sorry, like it's not a political show, but that debate was impossible to watch. If you were on either side of the fence, that debate was like so cringe worthy, right? I mean, weren't you just like the whole time I was like, oh, this is my country. Right? Yeah.
+
+[20:53] Did you watch it, Peter? Yeah. What do you what were you like? Again, like not like don't don't talk about your political side, anything, but what we how do you feel? No, the whole thing is just just painful.
+
+[21:02] I mean, ideally, what you want is just actual debate on the merits of things that matter. Yeah, no, we're beyond that. What we're way beyond that. We're beyond that. I think, but the thing is, I hate this in-between thing that's like watching, like, you know, it's like watching uh, you know, meet the parents.
+
+[21:14] It's just uncomfortable. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, some of the moments are funny, but it's an uncomfortable funny that makes me want to put my head in a paper bag. You know what I mean? It's like we just need to have like a jello match between these two.
+
+[21:28] It's a joke. I mean, it's a it's the kind of thing that people in other countries could point to and say, like, yeah, I mean, it's just a total circus. Yeah, yeah. And it's it's the kind of thing that like John Stewart used to like make fun of other countries. And like, look at the parliament of blah, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[21:41] You know what I mean? And like, look at the fistfighter department. Aren't these people funny? Ha ha ha ha. Well, now it's us.
+
+[21:46] Yep. You know what I mean? It's like, wow. Anyway, so uh bread scaling is not primarily a moisture loss, but and I remember. So I I went to my you know, my wife is very anxious for me to finish, and Nastasia is very anxious for me to finish the second book that I'm supposed to be working on.
+
+[22:05] So I uh I was like, how about this? The importance of moisture management. And and Jen's like, Jen's like, are you an idiot? Or are you what kind of a moron? No one's gonna buy a book on moisture management.
+
+[22:18] And I was like, I was like, but Nastasia, I mean uh Anastasia, because you also had the looks, I was thinking of you now, because Nastasia's giving me the moisture management look, which is very close to the vegan face. Oh, moisture. Anyway, so I was like, you know, I was telling my wife, I was like, look at and telling you guys on the air, like such a huge percentage of cooking problems in the world are moisture management problems. So everyone's like, That's true. Why did, you know, why is the crust of the meat, why is the skin bad?
+
+[22:49] Because you don't know how to handle moisture management. Like, why is it? Why is what's wrong with the bread? You have no understanding of moisture management. What's wrong with my pizza?
+
+[22:57] Moisture management. I don't want Maria to I want to get I want to capture that look on her face. If I tell her if I told my if I told my editor, my yeah, at the publisher at Norton, if I was like, hey Maria, check this out for a book. How about this? The miracle of moisture management.
+
+[23:14] But see, this is it's all about that. So like people like they think that they they think that they can put like an instantaneous crust on the outside of something and then it's gonna be good. No. You haven't removed enough moisture from the crust area to it get it right. Like, what's wrong with the my fried foods?
+
+[23:29] Well, you haven't managed, like you haven't managed the balance between moist and non-moist. Same with potato chips, French fries, like almost anything that isn't a braise, and even braises have moisture management problems. Cooking cooking beans, cooking starches. Like why breads stale in the first place, whether they'll go stale quickly, is moisture management in the dough, right? And then how it stales itself is also a m matter of moisture management as it goes out.
+
+[23:55] So the miracle of moisture management, it turns out that no one thinks that that will sell. That sells even less than cocktail books, which you know, don't sell that well. But i you know what I mean? It's like then you're your your history of writing books will be liquid intelligence and then moisture management. Um the miracle, the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[24:19] Yeah. That's gonna be on like the $10 shelf. $10 shelf. Do you remember when borders used to exist and they had the like the three dollar? But it was a giant three dollar book about like World War II airplanes?
+
+[24:30] Yeah, you could also get all sentimental, you know, thinking about like why my face is so tear-stricken after our work meetings. It's the miracle of moisture management. It's mean managing your moisture. Exactly that. I am, by the way, people, in meetings, I am the worst.
+
+[24:43] I am the worst. I am the most inflexible weasel in a meeting. Like the thing is that we have these meetings at the Museum of Food and Drink where we're talking about the exhibition. Here comes the moisture. So we're all sitting around this table, right?
+
+[25:05] We're sitting around this table, and we're trying to figure out how to do the best exhibition given the parameters that we have to work with. And when Peter comes to tell me something that he knows I'm gonna disagree with, right? I can tell because here's what here's what Peter does. He walks up, sits down and goes and like deflates like half of his size, stares down at his like 50,000 year old MacBook with half the keys missing, and is like you know, I can just see it. I can just see the shoulders go down a little bit.
+
+[25:38] And I'm like, Peter, man, I'm not so bad. And then he says something, and in fact I am. In fact, I am. You know what I mean? It's like and I'm not evil, I'm just not, you know.
+
+[25:52] There goes the moisture management again. Ooh, but like the uh moisture management. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it you know, it works with your colleagues, it works with your bread. So shattering dreams or shattering crust.
+
+[26:09] Yeah, it's saying the same. Little mismo. Uh so the uh the deal is uh what do you what do you think, Dave? Do you think moisture management could be a book? Um, right?
+
+[26:17] No. Yeah, I don't know. No. What about the miracle of moisture management? I mean, it does sound miraculous, but it's a tough sell.
+
+[26:24] It's got three M's in a row. What could be bad about three M's in a row? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody loves alliteration. Yeah, except for people.
+
+[26:30] If you open something with the word country, do not spell it with a K, especially if there's a kitchen. You're two thirds of the way there. No good. Anyway. Yeah, sure, let's do that.
+
+[26:43] We'll talk about Brett after the uh after we do the caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hi Dave, this is Jeffrey in uh Costa Mesa, California. How are you doing? How's it going?
+
+[26:51] All right. Alright. I'm one of the self-hating Californians. Sweet. Nastassi got some blowback on my Twitter account, by the way, uh, about the uh uh who is it?
+
+[27:00] Someone said at Leapers was like uh California hates you too, Nastasia. Strong. You may have found another. Not true. Oh, nice.
+
+[27:07] All right, go ahead. What do you got for me? Wait, Costa Mesa, isn't that where they isn't that where the bean place is that where they grow the beans? Is that where Rancho Gordo uh Rancho uh uh Rancho Gordo are you talking about? Oh yeah, they are they there?
+
+[27:18] Is that where they are? Are you in bean land? Didn't catch the question. Oh like you said Costa Mesa, right? Is that where Rancho Gordo is?
+
+[27:25] Is that where the beans are grown? Where is Costa Mesa? Uh we're like south of Long Beach, just south of Los Angeles on the coast. Maybe. I don't know.
+
+[27:32] All right, go ahead. I don't I don't believe we grow beans, but you probably have oranges back in the day, but those are gone now. Really? Why? Because of the citrus greening or just because of economics?
+
+[27:41] Or water? Too many people. Too many people. Oh. Turns out people are worth more than oranges.
+
+[27:47] No, we're not. Financial people seem to think. Um yeah. Even in a drought, it's just pleasant here. Kind of disgusting.
+
+[27:57] Nice, nice. Uh I'm gonna be installing. I'm gonna be installing some uh put foot pedal valves. Nice, good move. And uh the TNS brass ones.
+
+[28:10] And uh my guys are kind of scratching their head on how to solve the problem. I know you'd mentioned before there's a trick in basically allowing the hand uh cartridge valve to still work out the faucet. So they're they're trying to figure out how to have the foot pedal valve still work when the cartridge valve on the handle is in the closed position, how to how to sort of bypass that. All right, so I've done it. Yeah, so I've done this two ways, and I actually think the way that I did it the first time was better, and I'll tell you both ways.
+
+[28:42] So the the way I originally did it, and the way that I actually recommend is I physically separate out the um I separate the foot pedals from the um the hand cartridge and I have them mix in the gooseneck. And so what you do there is you get like a bit the base faucet, right, which is either gonna be wall or deck mounted, and then you actually um you don't use the weird swivel fitting there. You just literally put you get all chrome, chrome, uh uh chrome T fitting and then uh chrome nipples, you get to choose the size, and then you screw them together. It was it's easiest if you're doing uh wall mount as opposed to deck, right? Because in a wall mount, your sink uh the wall the flanges on the sink go back to the wall, and then the T can go back to the wall.
+
+[29:31] You have to and then you buy another flange and you just work out the the size of the chrome nipple, and what you end up with is a triangular flange, right? So you have instead of two flanges going to the wall, you have three that go back. Then on the inside, once you mount it up, you screw the uh you screw the connector in, and then you just go direct on a regular brass fitting, you go a T into that third T that goes into your gooseneck, and then that goes down with check valves to your foot pedals, and now your foot pedals operate completely independently of your uh foot cartridge, it doesn't matter what's going on. That worked fantastically. On my new one, actually, the foot pedals still work fantastically on this one.
+
+[30:12] On my on my new one, what I did was I bought a TNS unit that came with uh a sprayer arm, right? Now, what I did there is I the problem is most sprayer arms, right? What they do is they sense the uh pressure. Uh and so if you if you push the spray arm and let water through there, uh like a flap valve comes down and shuts off the water to the uh to the regular faucet head. And I don't know if that would work with this.
+
+[30:40] The one that I bought, the way it works is both the sink head and the sprayer arm can work at the same time, and you have to push and rotate a valve to actually turn off the uh the gooseneck. I hate this system. I hate it because it pushing and turning is such a hassle. If it was one of those quarter turn cartridges, like that would be good. So what I'm looking to do now, you know, now it's a couple years later, is rip off the gooseneck that I have and just screw another gooseneck on there and try to find an actual something that will shut the flow off to the gooseneck that's just a quarter of a turn, and not some sort of push and twist like a childproof cap, which I freaking hate.
+
+[31:18] But the but the way that that one works is very easy on the hookup for the foot pedals because what you do, and that one is deck mounted. So what you do is you just put your deck mount down, and that TNS one is designed to have a feed-in from the bottom that is the spray arm. So where the spray arm goes in, I think you might have to get an adapter, I forget, but you just screw the T right there, and feed feeding into that T, right, is the mix from your foot pedals and also the spray arm. So it's super easy. Um it's super easy there because you have that central connector going in.
+
+[31:52] But if you're going to use a spray arm, which I love the spray arm, you need to think of some better way to switch off the uh to switch off the top of the of the the gooseneck. Um the problem with T. Could you see a way that the first option could work in a deck mounted situation? It's possible. I didn't research it because I knew I was moving.
+
+[32:12] I I I thought I had solved it with the deck mount sink that I bought, but the problem with TNS Brass is that uh I mean I I love their stuff and like it lasts a long time and you can get all the parts for it, but it's not something in general that you can just walk into a plumbing house and get. It's better now, it's easier. Like on uh Amazon, I think carries some TNS stuff and KTOM.com. Store has some of their Yeah, and K Tom. The nice thing about K Tom, at least it used to be, is uh I think they're out of Florida, is that it used to be a pain in the butt because K Tom had the best prices, and so I would call up TNS Brass and I would say, hey, and I would spend like you know, 45 minutes on the phone with them asking about exactly which adapter am I gonna use, blah blah blah blah blah.
+
+[32:53] And then I couldn't just order it from them because they don't do that way, and then I would call K Tom and be a K Tom, put in an order for this, and then they'd ship it out like a a week later. Um I don't know, I have to look at it and see whether there's some uh uh easy way. Well, it's there are easy ways. In other words, like you you could they they make just a flange, you can buy the flange, and then you can put the T in. The problem is is getting it to space nicely because if you're gonna go deck and you want to drop that T down, it's gonna have to go T and then over.
+
+[33:23] So, unless you want it to look completely whacked out nutty, right, you're gonna have to have a relatively deep deck because it's gonna have to go out the back of your faucet and down. So now instead of mounting just a regular, I don't know, that were probably like two-inch flange or something like that. Uh you know, you need like a you need like a two and a half to three inch deck to mount it on. Like now you're gonna need that deck plus however like whatever the closest you can space that T over, which is going to be at least an inch. So you're adding like at least an inch, probably closer to an inch and a half, you know, to the depth of your deck on the deck mount situation.
+
+[34:00] Right. And if you're willing to do that, it's it's like super easy. The one thing I don't know is uh I don't know, and once you do that, by the way, it's super easy to install a sprayer arm on it because now once you have a third thing going down below the deck uh that happens like after the cartridge mixing, then you can you can tee that into your foot pedals and into a sprayer arm. And if you're doing that, right, the sprayer arm functions either with your hand mixers or with your foot pedals. Um the the issue is is that most TNS brass um uh shutoff, like quarter turn shutoffs.
+
+[34:36] This is what I used to have, right? What they do is is they're designed to exclusively run a uh a sprayer arm, and most of those situations are in dishwash uh pits, and in a dishwash pit, you're always using the sprayer arm and you have to tell it, hey, I want to use the gooseneck. So, and that's the way I used to have it. But if you're okay with the look of that, then it's it's like very easy because you can just buy they buy a separate gooseneck that comes up and it has the the quarter turn shut off for the gooseneck. You leave that on all the time, so the gooseneck is default on, right?
+
+[35:08] And and then and then and so you can buy a deck mount, uh a deck mount faucet without the gooseneck. You buy the add-on gooseneck, and then you have the tea that comes uh out and down, and then you buy the flange there and hook it into your spray arm and your foot pedals, and you should be good to go. I actually got used to having kind of the weird industrial chrome looking faucet thing, and I actually loved it and liked it better than my system. But it's just a matter of mix and matching with all the TS TNS brass stuff. Okay.
+
+[35:38] Um I think that's enough to help. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let us know how it works out. All right, thanks, David.
+
+[35:44] All right, so back to the stale bread. So um it's not uh strictly moisture loss that's happening, right? Uh it's actually uh the uh starch and it's but that's the thing again, it's more complicated. When I went back to look into it, the research has changed, people have done additional research since the last time I looked at it. But in general, what you're looking at is the starches uh are recrystallizing to an extent and the moisture is migrating from uh the starch sometimes to the proteins or into the into the uh matrix between where the starch used to be.
+
+[36:13] And for instance, reheating the bread uh can cause those things, uh, you know, cause them to reabsorb some moisture, decrystallize and get good again. Once you do that, usually it turns to garbage uh uh quickly afterwards. But yeah, so it's more than just uh it's more than just uh moisture loss. And by the way, the fact that it's a crystallization thing, if you think about it, this is why storing bread in the refrigerator makes you a complete enemy of quality because uh you're increasing the crystallization rate by lowering the temperature of the bread. That's why when you're freezing bread, you want to freeze bread right away because when you freeze bread, it's the equivalent of the act of freezing it alone is the equivalent of at least a day's worth of just sitting out on your counter, and you want to thaw it relatively rapidly.
+
+[36:53] You want it to be in that evil uh fridge zone for as short a period of time as possible. All right. So before we get kicked off, we should handle uh some Halloween questions. I'm gonna ha uh I should have done this one first and we get the uh the folks in the chat room on with this, and maybe Nastasia has some idea because Nastasia is the the queen of the Halloween uh and Chris. You know what I'm gonna say.
+
+[37:11] Uh I exactly know what you're gonna say, and that's why I want you to talk about it. Um this is from Matt. Uh hi uh cooking issues crew. I'm looking to make some Halloween slash spooky themed cocktails for Halloween. So two questions.
+
+[37:25] I'm using fresh Concord grapes, but don't really have a way of juicing them and getting the seed out. Any thought on uh on that without the aid of a juicer, or can I just blend it all and then clear it with some pectanase or whatever? Look, you can blend Concord grapes, but um it's gonna it the the seeds get bitter. So, like uh if remember the time that we tried it and was like uh gross, all the seed particles and the thing was just nasty. After that.
+
+[37:47] Yeah, but then like I've when I've done it without without the Santha, like I've literally just mashed it like like uh Lucille Ball making wine uh back in the I Love Lucy, you know what I mean? You mash the hell out of it, add your pectanase, uh pectinx ultra SPL to the mash, and then just keep mashing it for a couple of hours, and eventually it will kind of liquefy, and then you press the stuff out in a sieve to get the juice out. I don't remember that working very well. Well, your yield is not as high as what we got, but uh it's uh, you know, it's hard. Those were delicious cocktails we made.
+
+[38:19] Yeah, the other thing to do if you have kids or interns is get them to seed the dang grapes. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Then you can just blend the stuff. Um those were delicious cocktails, but they were a pain.
+
+[38:30] It was a pain. The Santa didn't crush the seeds, right? It's all a question of of officer. Yeah, but you lifted the You jiggered it somehow. Well, yes.
+
+[38:40] But the the issue with mashing, it's it's hard, you need a ma mashing is difficult because uh people want to try to the your your mash efficiency goes way down as soon as the depth you're mashing in goes uh deep and as soon as the area that the stuff you're mashing can move to goes wide. So if you have a deep bucket and you put a masher in to try to mash something, then all of the whole Concord Grapes just move out of the way of the masher as you push it through the stuff down the bottom. Women call men mashers back in the day. Masher! Yeah, what does that mean?
+
+[39:13] I don't know. I don't know. I mean it means like it's like CAD. Do you know what I'm talking about? In those like cartoons.
+
+[39:19] I thought we were talking about Concord Grapes. Uh yeah. You know, Nastasia? I I appreciate that. Because that's like that's an old school reference.
+
+[39:28] Oh, yeah. It's old school. Masher. Do you know how many things are in cartoons that you have no idea what they are and the kids still find them funny? Like all the weird like topical references that nobody like do you remember when Yosemite Sam was uh you remember when Bugs Bunny was supposed to get this guy fearless freep to do the high diving act?
+
+[39:48] And and Yosemite Sam's like, I'll pay him off all beast to see the hot diving act. I'm not gonna see the hot diving act. Remember that? That's good impressive. Yeah, so like yeah.
+
+[39:56] He's actually making little pistol motions. Yeah, you have to make the pistol motions. So anyway, so uh the so but there's all sorts of weird topical references in that cartoon. That cartoon was hilarious growing up, but there's no like songs of the time, like open the door, Richard, you know that song? Anyway.
+
+[40:13] Uh but it doesn't matter. That stuff's still funny as heck, even though you don't understand uh understand the references. Money tunes are timeless, man. Yeah, unlike unlike Shakespeare, where someone has to sit there and tell you what all the references are to what's going on in the Shakespeare. You're like, oh no, I get it.
+
+[40:26] That was like a current poem that people read. Because he would mash his genitals against females and uh that is disgusting. That is uh who would do that? No, no, no, not Trump. Oh not a political show, not a political show, Dave.
+
+[40:40] I think we're all on board with who we want, right? Yeah, not a political show. Not a political show. Well, we don't want people around. Not a political show.
+
+[40:49] Alright. Mash your gendals. First of all, like No, not like they're not out. It's still that's even that's so path, it's so pathetic. Imagine like you're like, eh, is this good?
+
+[41:01] On a crowded train. On a crowded train like on the subway. That just seems like a not like how is that see that kind of thing can't be an attempt at a successful attempt. You're not attempting to actually get someone to go out on a date with you with that kind of a move, huh? Like, what do you get?
+
+[41:20] No, I mean, but a lot of stuff like you know, catcalling and all that. It's not like you actually think the person's gonna start turn up and be like, hey, you know what? Let's go and get some dinner. Wanna get a drink? Yeah, really.
+
+[41:29] Hey, sweet cheeks, like, well, hello there. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't really understand. I don't understand, like, so is it really just to show off to your buddies? It's a power move.
+
+[41:38] Yeah, yeah. Just like it's not a power move or if we're buddy's on a crowded train. Right. I don't know. Well, no, then it's just a power move move.
+
+[41:47] But you you can you can you can impose your own will on somebody else? Yeah, I think so. I I don't know. I I can't even imagine. But it's yeah.
+
+[41:55] Masher. That's disgusting. So was that an urban dictionary or is that a real source? Various sources. Nastasia's favorite uh favorite place to look up her data, various sources.
+
+[42:09] Again, back to Looney Tunes. You remember that when the king was trying to get uh I think it was Yosemite Sam again to cook Bugs Bunny, and he says every every day the same thing. Variety. Remember that? The king wanted and he wanted Haas and Pfeffer as opposed to variety?
+
+[42:23] Totally meaningless. Do you remember this? I think somebody sand was trying to cook Bugs Bunny. And you need to get it. Is that where Bugs Bunny's like sitting back like it's a hot tub?
+
+[42:31] Hot tub? In the pop and bubbly hot tub. Dude, do they not have Looney Tunes in Illinois? No, no, no. There's a I I there are episodes where Bugs Bunny is like sitting in a cauldron and like chewing on a carrot irreverently.
+
+[42:46] Well, maybe it is that one actually. Maybe it is that one. But when you say like like pop bubbles, I'm thinking of that like song. No, that I was just I was doing a reference to Fat Joe. Yeah.
+
+[42:55] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I moved to Fat Joe from Looney Tunes. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:59] But then what's that song uh Pop Pop Bottles, the other one, the more recent one. Who sings that one? I don't know. Pop bottles. Uh I can't actually sing the lyrics of that.
+
+[43:10] Any I can't find I can't think of any set of lyrics of that that's appropriate for me to sing. Alright, so we went from Concord Grapes to genital mashing to uh uh Looney Tunes to Pat Joe. Alright, well, let's finish this. Uh any thoughts for uh spooky Halloween cocktails? Uh this is the same question, believe it or not, folks.
+
+[43:28] Uh the last word looks sort of like a witch's brew, but I'm not sure the best way to really make it pop. I could carbonate it, uh uh, but I'd really want it popping up in your face to seem spooky. Um the other cocktail I'm thinking of making is something somebody made before Concord grape, maple syrup, lemon juice, bourbon, angostar, egg white, shaken, real frothy, and then two drops of Peshodes. Oh, not peixos, man. Come on.
+
+[43:50] Just dump, just dump cough syrup in it if you're using Peixos. No offense, Paishot's people, but offense. Uh it's good in the sense. I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm gonna interrupt. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:57] That's my classic. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh to show vampire teeth marks, all ideas appreciated. Thanks. I like the vampire in the egg foam, though.
+
+[44:03] That's a good idea. I mean, Peshod, you know, I'm not for it, but yeah, whatever. So uh, okay. If you're gonna do a I mean, everyone's like, oh, this is for kids. Adults freaking love a hunk of dry ice in the house.
+
+[44:14] Dry ice is what I'm gonna say, yeah, man. Adults freaking love it. And then especially look at the pizza. There's pizza with greens here. The people here will more reports on that next week.
+
+[44:24] Uh when we ask for a pizza with greens, they'll be like, we don't do that. We don't do that. It's gonna happen. I guarantee you, Nastasi, how much you want to, you won't bet me. And there's like prosciutto on top.
+
+[44:33] It's like, I love that pizza. So listen, when you're doing, if you're gonna do a punch with dry ice, make sure you don't uh put you don't put um uh dry ice in anyone's cup for any reason, shape, form, whatever. Uh activated charcoal, black, like those super powders that people use for health reasons, which I think is crazy. Uh, but whatever. Uh but you know, uh that goes in drinks.
+
+[44:54] A lot of people done that, and black drinks are creepy, and if you use enough of it, all your cut all your customers or guests' teeth will become black, which is also really creepy for them. Um garnish with what if you had like uh cobwebs from like cotton candy or something? And this uh what? Cotton candy for cobwebs. It would melt, man.
+
+[45:10] You could put some on top. That's what I mean, yeah. Uh don't put silly string in your cocktails. Here's another one. Uh Nastasia is been, and and Nastasi and I don't say the name of the book.
+
+[45:19] I don't want the price to go even higher. But uh Nastasia, we turns out Nastasia is obsessed with this, says she told me about it. I don't remember that. And then I mentioned it to her. Applehead dolls.
+
+[45:30] Oh, yes. As a garnish. Yes. Yeah, appleheads. Applehead dolls.
+
+[45:35] So look up the old Vincent Price apple head doll kit. So what you do is you take the winner. You take an apple, you peel all but the top and the bottom, leave that intact, then carve uh like carve a face in it, right? Soak it in lemon juice a little bit if you want. I don't know why it's gonna go brown anyway, but they say to do that.
+
+[45:51] Carve a face in it, and then soak it in salt for um I don't know, like a salt water for like uh a day or so. And that's to, I think I don't know why everyone does that. I don't some of that's probably just osmotic to pull the water out of the apple, and also probably to help keep it from spurlin as it as it dries down, and then dry that sucker down, like stick it on a chopstick or whatever, and or wire and dry it, uh you hang it or what or stick it up and dry it for a week. If you have a high dehydrator, you can do it quicker. If you buy the Vincent Price the Vincent Price apple head maker literally is like a case that goes around a 60 watt light bulb and probably has caused more house fires than any other Vincent Price branded toy in history, of course, and what's the ultimate cocktail, Halloween cocktail?
+
+[46:39] The ultimate Halloween cocktail is to make a wine zombie. Uh and Nastasia should post on her Instagram account wine zombie instructions. It's true. Peter, what is your experience with the wine zombie kit? Um I basically drank kamikaze straight out of the wine zombie.
+
+[46:55] Not knowing it was kamikaze, and then um blacked out. Blacked out, yeah. Yeah. So the way a wine zombie works is you go to your local Halloween shop and you buy a uh you buy a uh a zombie mask and then you put it, you build like a wire armature, you put a zy zombie costume over it with hands, and then you uh just put a punch bowl in there, you drill a hole in the bottom and jam a rubber tube in, and then you uh put it on like a circulator or whatever, a pump. Then you add all of your cocktail to that uh bucket, and then the tube out of the circulator or pump, whatever goes into the mouth of the uh of the zombie mask that I guess you put it over a mannequin head, right?
+
+[47:29] A styrofoam head and then dumps into the bowl. So it's just a zombie puking, and I think for this a red cocktail is appropriate. Puking zombie blood cocktail punch into and you can have like a hunk of dry ice in the punch bowl to keep it cold as it's circing, and so he's puking into a frothy, like steamy zombie thing. And and the zombie later you're puking into a yeah. Now, Nastasia, Nastasia, you know, uh believe it or not, even though even though she is sometimes a just get her done enemy of quality, it's good enough kind of a person.
+
+[48:07] That's what this was. No, but you went full on and you did you did a a standing wine zombie and a Santa. And then and zombie, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[48:17] And but but if you're you're first wine your first wine zombie out the gate, I recommend doing a uh a bust only zombie that you can you know put on a tabletop, like a tabletop mounted zombie. But if you want to go full uh Nastasia and Piper, shout out to Piper Christopher. He said he gave up all IP on that. So well, you still have to give him credit for working on it. You don't have to give him money, but you have to give him credit.
+
+[48:40] So if you need plans, Nastasia should sell kit plans for wine zombies because uh it's it's wine zombie year, and then the the good thing is is that with a very small amount of repurposing, you can do what Nastasia also did at the Del Posto party, which is the puking Santa. Whereas Santa's puking up mold uh, and that was a hot one. That's very good, like a hot, like a mold uh mold wine. You didn't mold wine, right? Yeah.
+
+[49:02] Like a glug, like a like a Santa puking up a glug. And Nastasi again took it one level further. Actually recorded uh her friend Phil Bravo making Santa comments like too many cookies, and then like puking up the mole wine. You know what I mean? My best work with Dave.
+
+[49:22] Yeah. Those are the days. Oh, now you're making me think of uh Archie Bunker song. That's such a good show. On the fan.
+
+[49:30] Yeah. Better wrap it up, Dave. Alright. So listen, I have some questions I didn't get to. Uh they are on zucchini pieces.
+
+[49:37] Uh uh, I don't see who sent that in, but it's uh it's about zucchini residue and sticking. And again, much more complicated than I thought. You ever remember I've said this on the air a bunch of times. When you when you skin pumpkins, you get that weird oozy latex that like causes that disgusting skin to f form on on top of your already disgusting skin. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:55] Yeah. And so it turns out that there are these crazy exudates in cucur bits and and zucchini, cucumber, uh, pumpkin, all cucribits. And some have it more than others, these weird exudates. And so I'm gonna look into that because I think that's an interesting uh uh subject. And I also have to get next week to um ooh, replicating uh other cook's dishes and when it's okay, when it's a rip.
+
+[50:19] Uh and we have a question on some high-tech equipment uh from Simone Montreal, we're gonna get to next week. What do you want, Peter? And go to chow ch o w dot mofad.org and get your tickets to see Chow, the making of Chinese American Cuisine, and then see Dave, me, maybe Stas. I don't know if she'll be there. Because if you don't, give me the give me the moisture management Peter if we don't make it.
+
+[50:39] If you don't, then Mofa is just gonna be in so much trouble. No, we'd appreciate the support. So it starts at 30 bucks and up. You can come and see the exhibition. So get out there.
+
+[50:52] Chow.mofad.org. Thanks. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[51:16] You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, you know, 12-ish to like almost like you know one o'clock. Uh at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. How are you doing?
+
+[0:46] Yeah. Listen, listen, I need you to call in all of your cooking related questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We have uh no one in the studio today with us.
+
+[1:00] It's just uh engineer Dave and myself. How you doing, Dave? Good, how are you doing? But we have uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez uh joining us from Washington, DC on telephone. And do we have our special guest in DC?
+
+[1:13] Yeah, we do. And folks, you ready for it? Jackie Molecules, Jack Insley from DC. What's up? What's up, Dave?
+
+[1:25] Nothing. How you doing? So have you started this new uh radio thingamajig down there yet? What's going on? You know, uh it's under construction.
+
+[1:33] I'll be opening uh it's gonna be called Full Service Radio, a entire podcast network here in DC in an awesome yet-to-be-opened hotel. So it's basically still a construction zone. But uh 11 DC so far, man. It's really cool over here. So do you like wear blue blazers every day and like uh what?
+
+[1:52] Do you no no no? No? The Nick Chat stays on. Yeah, do you like do you like just wake up in a Starbucks every morning and hang out with the political people? Is that what happens?
+
+[1:59] What's going on with it? Man, I I have had more Starbucks here in DC than I have my entire life in New York, unfortunately. That's actually true statement. Yeah, yeah. So are you uh are you busy rigging the election while you're waiting for the construction to happen?
+
+[2:15] I've been rigging it, yeah. I've been actively rigging it um and doing everything I can. Yeah, I mean that's I did get to tour the White House though, Dave. I got to tour the West Wing, which is pretty awesome. Yeah?
+
+[2:25] So what what do you like like uh what did you do? Did you notice stuff that you had seen in all the television programs or what? Well, I mean, you know, I got to see like pictures of Michelle on Bar on Barack's desk. That was kinda cool. Wait, you got to see the oval office?
+
+[2:40] Wait, you look wait, you like you were in the oval office's restroom, but not in the oval office itself? Yeah, there's like a bathroom right outside. Guys, like, you know, if you want to use the bathroom, now's your chance. You could use it at the White House. You peed in the Oval Office's bathroom.
+
+[2:55] Yes, I did. Now people who know Nastasia Lopez will know that she cannot be in a new place without using the restroom. This includes like, you know, if she could have used this Elvis' death toilet at Graceland, she would. You definitely would have been all over that Oval Office toilet. Am I right, Nastasia?
+
+[3:15] Oh yeah. There's still time. I'm still here for like twelve more hours or something. Now are you allowed to say why you're there or not? What?
+
+[3:23] Are you allowed to say why you're in Washington or no? Uh no, I don't think so. So we could talk about it next week? Sure. Alright.
+
+[3:33] All right. Well, uh, so uh that's exciting. That we know you're in DC rigging the election, but we can't talk about exactly what you're doing. All right, we'll talk about it next week. Uh so in other news, Booker and Dax the Bar is officially closed.
+
+[3:44] Booker and Dax 1.0 at Sombar is officially closed. Uh so you know, that's that. Um it was a crazy Mastasi was away. It was a crazy, crazy Saturday. It was uh it was fun though, it was good.
+
+[4:04] Uh you know, people are like, Are you sad to see it close? I'm like, No, because it's gonna be better the next time when we reopen it. You know what I mean? Yeah, were there pinatas? Okay, so uh I had two pinatas uh on me.
+
+[4:21] Uh I went to a place, a local place in New York called Economy Candy, and uh bought a bunch of candy for these pinatas. Um the pinatas now are are freaking horrible. I went to Party City. Pinatas have been going downhill for years and years. They've just turned into garbage.
+
+[4:37] You know what I mean? Like first, like this, they started making them out of this cardboard that doesn't break right, you know. I mean, no one, but no one makes a ceramic pot anymore. You know what I mean? But whatever.
+
+[4:46] I I'm I'm okay with not having the ceramic pot like traditional star pinata, fine. Uh those are awesome, right? Because you knock the like those star points off, and then eventually you get to the pot. You know what I mean? But it will break.
+
+[4:59] I've seen these new cardboard pinatas where like I've seen kids break on them for like like 20 minutes and they're getting bored and they walk away from a pinata. What the hell is that? You know what I mean? I mean, what the heck is that? So, like uh, so anyway, so I hate the modern piñata, but over the past couple of years, Nastasia, they've gotten even worse.
+
+[5:18] They're now just flat. Most of them are just flat cardboard with like a picture on them of what you're supposed to hit. And a little and a little crepe paper around the outside. I was like, yo, like give me a traditional donkey and a unicorn. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:35] Which is basically it's like it's like Carvel ice cream, like they make Fudgy the Whale in DeSanta. They took the donkey and made it into a unicorn. So I got a unicorn and a donkey, but I'm just saying I think that they didn't trust me on the last night to be reasonable. So they didn't allow me to uh break the pinatas uh uh there. So we all went to uh you know, my uh someone who you know used to be working at Booker and Dax, Reynolds opened up his own bar, Black Crescent.
+
+[6:02] So we did a late night after party pinata breaking at uh Black Crescent. So yes, pinatas were damaged. Some pinatas were harmed in the making of the closing night of uh Booker and Dex. I will also just mention this. Um for so Nastasi, you're familiar with Diet Coke and Mentose, right?
+
+[6:21] Yes. Yeah. So you take the mentose, you stick it in the Diet Coke, and Diet Coke is the one everyone uses. You stick the mentos in the Diet Coke and you throw it down, uh, you get all of these nucleation sites, and the diet coke bottle basically turns into a rocket, right? Okay.
+
+[6:37] So you can do that with uh liquid butane or with uh liquid nitrogen, and you know, you could see it on the internet, you could see people doing it with the liquid nitrogen and the thing. So I'm like, uh I'm not saying I tried this. What I'm saying is is that if you try it, be extremely careful to not put too much liquid nitrogen in. So what happens is is that theoretically, I did let's not say that I did this, but if you were to pour out like, you know, half or a third of the bottle of the oh, I just did a trump sniff. If you were to pour out like half or a third of the lic of the uh diet coke from a fresh bottle, and then pour in um pour in some liquid nitrogen, right?
+
+[7:13] Now the liquid nitrogen is floating on the top of the bottle. Now, if you flick that, if you like tilt that bottle down, what happens is the liquid nitrogen will rush through the liquid of the diet coke, trying to float to the top, and while it's doing that, it's explosively boiling and creating super multiple nucleation sites. So theoretically, it makes a really nice rocket. Uh, it turns out that I guess if you wait a little bit too long, or maybe you put too much liquid nitrogen in, that when you turn it upside down, it like takes off for like a foot and then explodes with like the sound of like of you know, like a like like bigger than bigger than a Grouchy firework. We're talking like a very loud explosion.
+
+[7:58] And you definitely do not want to do this in Manhattan at like four in the morning. It's definitely not something that I did or that I would recommend that any of you do. Um anyways, so uh oh, another thing, uh Nastasi and I uh a while back, okay. So uh Nastasi and I got paid, right? Fine for something, finally, right?
+
+[8:25] So Nastasi and I got paid, John Johnny Walker. Not yet, not yet. All right, well, theoretically paid, promise of payment, baby steps, Nastasia, baby steps. So um basically they these guys came in and they're saying we have this new Johnny Walker, red rye cask, you know, uh that our you know, our new one of our master blenders, uh Emma Walker, no relation, came up with, and we want to come in and do like a cooking issues where you talk to her about this product, right? Nastas is basically how it went.
+
+[8:55] Yeah. So it wasn't one of our normal cooking issues things, and yes, we were paid, but it turns out Nastasi and I had a good time. We liked the product, and we actually liked uh Emma Walker. We thought she was fun. And so we have the cooking issues episode.
+
+[9:08] Dave, how do we how do they get to where it's not going on our normal feed? Because listen, I I bleeped out some of the crazy parts. I redacted somebody's name who I didn't want to publicly embarrass. Uh, and uh I cut out some of the cursing, but it's still not really a family show. It's about drinking, and there are some uh, you know, it's it's PG 13.
+
+[9:27] Yeah, there's some off-color stories in it, let's say, even with the bleeping. Uh Carlo Maraci from uh uh Carlo from uh Robertas makes an appearance towards the end. So, Dave, how do they how do they get to that? Because it's not part of our normal feed. Right.
+
+[9:40] So if you go to the Heritage Radio Network website, HeritageRadio Network.org, and if you just use the search bar at the bottom and look for cooking issues, Johnny Walker, it'll come right up. All right. Now, now so you need to actually go to our website to get this. You're not gonna, it's not gonna appear in your iTunes or whatever. You have to actually go, which is always a good idea, don't you think, Dave, to go to our Heritage Radio website?
+
+[10:02] Absolutely. Forget iTunes. Yeah, forget that. Uh I you know, I wish I had used that bleep. I was talking about bad ways to like you know, like in the 1980s when they used to uh overdub curses, my least favorite was the forget for the F bomb.
+
+[10:16] Forget you, you know what I mean? It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't feel doesn't have the same force, you know what I mean? No, bad replacement. That's a bad replacement.
+
+[10:24] It's a it's a bad replacement. Just say F U. Just say F. I think that's better. Or just like silence it or something.
+
+[10:30] So my friend uh Eric Bonenstiel, uh, who uh I was hanging out with, you guys don't know him. I mean, maybe you do, I don't know. Uh he was hanging out with him over the weekend. He said that he saw something and literally they dubbed the full like F U as get this, you ready for it? And it became his favorite thing to say as a substitute curse.
+
+[10:49] Chinese dentist. Say that again, Chinese dentist. And it's good because it makes no freaking sense. Yes, Chinese dentist. Has no meaning.
+
+[11:05] So, like whenever he would like smash his hand with a hammer or something, he'd go, Oh, Chinese dentist, like that. And it would it makes no sense. And he said it was literally racist, I think. That's racist. How is it I mean like it has no meaning?
+
+[11:17] It can't be racist. Like, what does it mean? How is it? How is it racist? It happens to have the word Chinese in it.
+
+[11:23] Does it have any relationship to it? We just looked it up and it says it's a mythical person who is said to exist in remote areas of China but has never been cited by a reputable source. That's what a Chinese dentist is. What does that mean? What does that even mean?
+
+[11:38] Saying they have bad teeth. Oh you racist? Oh. See, that's racist now. That's you're being racist.
+
+[11:49] That's so deep that I didn't even I didn't even get the reference. I get it now. But why would they use that? Why would they use that as a as a as a dub in a movie? Bad.
+
+[12:03] Some some, you know, some clansman was uh doing the overdubs. Dang, I'm gonna have to tell Eric never to use that. Yeah. We shouldn't have told you. Uh see, now this is classic nostalgia, right?
+
+[12:20] She would prefer that I walk around like accidentally insulting people than like tell me what's going on. I want you all to kind of realize, you know, where Nastasi is on this sort of a thing. Crazy. Crazy. All right.
+
+[12:35] Speaking of uh things that may or may not be offensive, uh Elliot wrote in, can you discuss a cook's integrity as it relates to trying to replicate dishes and techniques seen on social media? Um what is crossing the line and what is the sharing of ideas? Curious what you think, and hopefully there is a guest today that can also weigh in uh Elliot. Well, I don't know, I mean you guys can can weigh in. Um I can't believe you looked it up that fast.
+
+[13:02] Yeah. You guys are crazy. Well, thank you. Thank you for saving me from going the entire episode without knowing that I was like uh accidentally spewing hatred. Yeah, who knows how many more times you would have dropped that.
+
+[13:14] Right. Throughout the episode, like eight billion, and someone would have like written in and been like, uh uh, you know what I mean? Anyways. So um here's what I think. I think a lot depends, right?
+
+[13:31] Uh I'll g I'll give you a short story uh uh about uh the the the bar and then we could talk more about uh other stuff. So like I've had many bartenders at Booker and Dax uh who have gone on to do um, you know, bigger and better things, their own programs, uh go to work at, you know, the best bars in the country or run them. And um the thing is is that they tend not to take some of the um some of the core technique, most of the core techniques from Booker and Dax. Now some of that is because, you know, they can't afford a centrifuge or or whatever, but a lot of those recipes and techniques tend not to get uh taken from or you know, did not get taken from Booker and Dax and and kind of promulgated to other bars. And I always wondered why.
+
+[14:14] Now it could just be that those techniques suck and nobody wants to use them, right? That's the first way, right, Stuzz could be that. Uh right. Just maybe they just they're just not good. Or uh alternatively, um I put such a um I put such a uh uh kind of a a premium on not doing anyone else's stuff, like not doing other people's specs, uh not using techniques uh that were developed, modern, recent techniques that were developed by uh, you know, other people or people I knew uh, you know, or that we hadn't come to independently.
+
+[14:58] And I think um that kind of made them feel that using that stuff would would is bad, right? That using it would be a rip off or whatever. And I it and that's actually the opposite of what I want. Like I want those techniques to be um to be used, right? I mean, the issue of anyone what people don't like, I think it it everyone wants their stuff to get um used, uh their recipes and techniques to get used.
+
+[15:29] What they want out of it is to be honest, it's like some sort of like uh credit, right? So what they don't want to have happen, like the worst thing that can happen, and it's happened, Stas, how many times this happened? Like you come up with something, somebody else uses it, they're the more famous person, it gets credited to them and you're hosed, right? That's that's the worst case scenario. Um the other thing that you love that's my favorite, it's my absolute favorite.
+
+[15:52] But the the other thing that happens is that um the other thing that people hate is when you know someone uh will take a technique or a recipe to a different market and then allow reporters and other people to say that it was their idea. That's also not kosher at all. But um you know I I think if you use a recipe or a technique or or anything and as long as when the reporters come and ask you you're like yeah this was an awesome recipe from whoever from Sean Brock from Wiley Dufrein from Johnny Azini from Dominique Anself whomever. You know what I mean? I think um I think it's that's that's the the issue what people don't want is someone to take credit for a recipe.
+
+[16:43] I mean there's you know it's famously said you don't patent you know the these recipes that you know they're basically they're open source as long as you can figure out how to make them uh but there is in the in the higher end uh food world uh and drink world at least like uh a some sort of sense of honor uh in it and I think that I think as long as you are respecting um that kind of code of uh honor and ethics you know use it I would love it if people used you know uh recipes Jim Meean uh kind of famously said from you know PDT that you know the goal at least of a bartender is to create a recipe that becomes a classic and is made everywhere right I mean uh and I would think the same thing would hold true for um you know a chef what do you think guys yeah yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, just you know, don't separate techniques. Tell them what your technique is that people saw which one? The uh rapid infusion.
+
+[17:41] Oh, yeah, but no, people know that I I came up with that. With the ISI infusion? Whatever. I mean, it depends. The right people know.
+
+[17:49] You know what I mean? It's like what are you gonna do? The the Again the the issue is that this is why like people like Ferron Adria put a year on everything that they do so that they can kind of date it and plant their flag in it. And it and the only reason it even really matters at all is I mean, it's weird. When you're a cook, you're in the business of making ephemeral things that get consumed on a daily basis, right?
+
+[18:17] Uh, and yet you still for some reason, and and I think part of this has to do with kind of the group of people that are becoming um cooks these days, is you still want to have some sort of uh um you you wanna exist past the last meal you made. You wanna have some sort of um uh impact or some sort of uh, you know, note that you have existed other than the fact that you just happen to have cooked. And so that's why, you know, people and and you look back at old chefs that have famous dishes or famous cook famous cookbooks. It's another reason why it's a good idea, like if you're well known to uh actually make a cookbook, you know, because then at least you plant your flag in something and people can look back on it. Um that's initially why we started Cooking Issues blog years and years and years ago was so that we had some sort of record.
+
+[19:09] So it wasn't just we would do stuff, teach other people how to do that stuff, and then you know, it just gets forgotten. Um, but it's kind of a weird, it's a weird impulse. I mean, I do have that impulse to want to plant that flag, but it's a weird impulse to have in a business where you're making stuff for people to eat. You know what I mean? Yep.
+
+[19:29] Yep. Yeah. Uh I mean, because you know, you know, in the old days, and it's entirely honorable, right? To all you care about is good execution, right? Like you don't care necessarily about making a name for yourself, whatever that means, or uh having some sort of posterity.
+
+[19:48] All you care about is the food that's in front of you right now. I mean, that's the Zen way to go. You're not supposed to care about your own kind of personal um baggage or what you know what you need out of uh, you know, so that you can when you're you know you know an old person and people come up and you're like, you were the great cook, blah blah blah. You know, you know, like that's not necessarily what it needs to be about. Um and as you know, especially if you're one of those kind of uh cooks, like these kinds of issues aren't really um a problem.
+
+[20:18] So the short answer is is that if you fancy yourself an extremely creative cook or someone who's doing cutting edge uh things, or if being original is important to you, uh it is still uh okay. In fact, encouraged to use uh other people's ideas as long as you're not a dirt bag about it, right? Right. Yeah. All right.
+
+[20:43] Uh Jerry. Yep. I actually have a question from uh a listener that I met here in DC. If you want to take that real quick. Sure.
+
+[20:52] Yeah, cool. This one's coming from Josh Sieberg. Um he wants to know if he can find a practical use for a vegetti behind the bar. Oh my God. Oh my god.
+
+[21:05] Well, I mean, I in my mind, Jack, I had about 8,000 inappropriate references immediately pop up. And I have suppressed them all. Thankfully, I no, don't suppress it. No, no, no. I can't especially racist today.
+
+[21:23] That was unintentional. That was unintentional. You might as well just go all in, Dave. No, no, no. No, especially in today's political climate.
+
+[21:32] I am not about to like. Now more than ever you you have uh license, you know. Not gonna be driving. So dropping vegetti bombs all over the thing different. Well, I'm gonna actually attempt to legitimately.
+
+[21:47] So for those of you that don't know, the Vigetti, aka the spiralizer, uh was one of our favorite topics back in the day. Uh who was it, Nastasi that originally sent us the Vigetti? Claire. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it doesn't take someone with a dirty mind to see how stupid that name is, right?
+
+[22:11] I mean, it's it's a it's like a a thing with uh an orifice that you jam like cylindrical things into and it shreds them in its teeth, and it's called a vegetti. I mean, you don't need to travel too far mentally to get to the scads of vegetti jokes, because Claire, Nastasia's friend, would call in kind of seemingly unaware of what she was talking about while we were asking her what manner of things she was shoving into her vegetti. And she would say things that were in like, you know, i if your mind was taking the leap that everyone's did would seem in inappropriate. But I think the problem with making vegetti jokes behind the bar is that while the bar arena is less sexist than the kitchen arena, I'm talking professional, it still has a long freaking way to go for um gender parity. So I will merely say this.
+
+[23:13] I want to see as many vegetes behind the bar as is humanly possible. Uh because uh I think it's uh it's uh it's a problem, but it is it well, but it is a no sh it is an area that I'm taking it on the metaphorical sense here. It is an area of food service, I think that is making inroads faster than the back of house kitchen is. And so I think anything that goes that direction is good. Now, to the serious question of should I put an actual vegetable spiralizer behind the bar.
+
+[23:50] If you are the kind of person that prefers to drink your cocktails with chopsticks, then I say go ahead and just fill your cup with whatever kind of vegetified garbage you want to like put into it. But I can't imagine um, I can't, I mean, uh maybe it's just because people like I don't like gloppy drinks. I don't like tons of garbage in my drinks. I don't like I don't I don't like drinking my cocktails through a brillio pad of fake uh spaghetti. So uh I I mean I can't conceive of something, I mean, I could conceive of like, okay, okay, let's just say there are people might do this.
+
+[24:31] People might take some sort of uh like apple, let's say, and uh, you know, shape it such that you could jam it into your vegetti, vegetify the apple into these strands, pour a liquor over it uh with some acid that causes the apple not to go brown, and then you have it'll fairly rapidly infuse because of the high surface area of apple, or you could do a light mash down of the apple, but I wouldn't because then it would get ugly. Then you drink the apple flavored stuff, and then you could take chopsticks and eat it afterwards, but it's just not my style. I would not do that. You could answer though, yeah. And you could substitute anything for that.
+
+[25:07] Like I could see someone doing like some sort of like uh Lady of the Night, which is a clarified bloody Mary, and having some vegetified vegetables in there that would you know infuse and then be a meal afterwards, because let's face it, a bloody Mary is basically a liquid alcoholic meal, anyways. So I don't know. What do you think, Nastasia? Uh that was a nice way to answer that question. All right.
+
+[25:32] Um now, uh Jared wrote in about uh zucchini. Um thanks for answering my questions in the past. This one is about zucchini and it's sticky, slimy residue. We never actually finished this one last week, right, Dave? I don't think we did.
+
+[25:49] I don't think so. When I dehydrate raw zucchini pieces, much of it tends to stick together, and I suspect that this residue is the culprit. Do you think that's the case? Yes. Residue.
+
+[26:02] Get waity, Nastasia. I'm gonna use the word exudate. Uh which is yes, I'm imagining Nastash. Yeah, maybe you should have seen her face. Wow.
+
+[26:12] Exudate. Um, yeah, it's like she like that because you know why? Because when it's and whenever you say exudate, she's thinking like pimple popping. That's what she's thinking about. It's like I can nah now.
+
+[26:24] Jack's got the Nastasia face on. Exudate. Uh she uh whenever like for instance, this is a little like knowledge, drop knowledge on how Nastasia's mind works. Nastasia, like Nastasia doesn't like look the reason Nastasia, and I'm guessing, this is a guess. We haven't actually had this conversation, but um, the reason she hates looking at pictures of uh like leaf fungus and like those weird things that grow on plant leaves, is because in uh in her mind, I think she instantly equates it with human skin.
+
+[26:54] That's that's my feeling. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. Wow, is that that's Dave on the on the vomiting sound effects?
+
+[27:06] Do you know I used to be able to do a very passable uh fake throw up noise, and uh as I've aged, it puts too much pressure on the back of my eyeballs and like I almost black out. Nobody does it better than Stephen Colbert. That was him? No, no, no, but I'm saying he has the best fake throw-up sound in the world. Well, he better like keep using that now, because I think the older you get, the less good you're gonna be at the fake throw up.
+
+[27:31] It's just like like jamming up your diaphragm like that, just puts a lot of internal pressure on your system. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Just like a bigti.
+
+[27:38] Whoa. Okay. Um anyway, do I think that slimy stuff is the case is the is the culprit? Yes. Uh now, the going on, Jared writes, other than making sure pieces don't overlap.
+
+[27:51] This is gonna become a not fan family friendly show at this rate. We got vegetis, we got accidental racism. Horrible. It's horrible day. Uh, other than making sure pieces don't overlap when dehydrating, which is unavoidable for my application.
+
+[28:04] Can anything else be done to neutralize this sticking? Um, the main issue is when I reconstitute the zucchini with water, the pieces tend to remain stuck together. I'd prefer they come apart within a few minutes. Thanks for your help, uh, Jared. Okay, so I looked up a uh an article called uh this extrafascicular phloem is made for fighting, which it's like like nowadays, all these scientific papers have uh like these catchy titles.
+
+[28:32] So um zucchini, strangely, I don't have the good uh version of of the uh thing here, but zucchini is uh is a a cucurbit, right? The same way that pumpkins are cucubits and watermelons and uh uh say pumpkin already, cucumbers, zucchini, all that stuff, all same. Same family. And they all have these uh exit, like these like like this f they say it's phloem-based, but they can be like exudates. So for any of you who've ever peeled a pumpkin, like for soup, like you'll notice it gets that weird stuff and your hands get that like crazy skin on them from like that stuff uh drying.
+
+[29:12] And apparently, in pumpkin, anyway, there's like hundreds of compounds in them. There's sugars, there's proteins, and they're surface active. And I think that that's what's what's going on, because they're also present in in zucchini. Now, the problem is you can't just peel it to get rid of it, because I think these things are pretty dense into the zucchini, so I don't think you can rationally just peel it and get rid of the stuff. Uh what I think, and this is just a uh a guess, uh, is you maybe if we treat it, and I didn't have a chance to look it up, what the components in cactus slime are.
+
+[29:45] But for those of you that use uh nopolis, like you know, cactus things, they're slimy, and you can either do a quick pre-boil on those to help out with the slime, or like you know, you cut it, you do a little pre-boil, which I guess boils the slime off, drain it, rinse it again before you dehydrate it, or um you could salt it, right, and then rinse it off, and the salt will help dri dry out, uh, you know, pull out the slime. So I would bet that either one of those techniques, and a little let's be honest, a little bit of salt's not gonna hurt the zucchini. Am I right, guys? I mean, come on, please. Uh if you salt, yeah.
+
+[30:18] If you salt the zucchini out a little bit first and then rinse the salt off and then dehydrate it, I think that might uh help too. But I would look up um like treating cactus slime, and I'll do a little more research. Maybe I'll run a test on it, although I don't have scads of time to be cutting up zucchini, which is one of my least favorite vegetables, anyways. But you know, maybe uh Nastasi, maybe we can get Claire to vegetify a bunch of it and uh and test it out. She's still making her zucchini, her zucchini vegetti strands.
+
+[30:47] It's evolved, it's evolved into uh a bigger and and more space. Yeah. Vigetti strands, good lord. Yeah, well, Nastasia's Nastasia's friend, so I guess because she didn't want to carbo load, I don't know what her deal was. Like um, was making fake zucchini spaghetti, but then she would overcook it and then fry it.
+
+[31:09] She fried it. She fried it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, alright, whatever. I don't mean I try to imagine something more horrifying than like just an oil-soaked strand of zucchini. How do you ate it?
+
+[31:21] Was it actually bad? I didn't eat it. I've never eaten it. You were sitting in front of it and you couldn't bring yourself to taste one bite? She would just tell me about it, how great it is.
+
+[31:32] Well, you need to have some at this point. I mean, I feel like we've talked about it enough. You need to have it. Uh Jack's like, nah, nah. Yeah, nah.
+
+[31:43] Uh Simon wrote in about uh ultrasounds. I recently have acquired a centrifuge in a laboratory ultrasonic cell disruptor, which is a is so basically it it's a like they're powerful ultrasounds, and they just they vibrate so rapidly that the cavitation from it at the tip causes things like cells to kind of break break apart. Uh and Nastasia, you you hate the sound of it, right? Uh oh, I hate that. Yeah, that high-pitched thing.
+
+[32:10] Yeah, yeah, people go running, it's crazy. Um anyway, I recently acquired a laboratory ultrasonic cell disruptor from a restaurant closing down. I'm very familiar with the centrifuge, but I have very little experience with the sonicator. Being a bartender, one of my main interests uh in this piece of equipment is to make infusions. I'm waiting for a replacement cap for the probe, so I haven't had the chance to use it yet.
+
+[32:30] Do you remember when Ford used to have a uh Ford made a car called the Probe? And they literally the commercial was is there anything hotter than a hot new probe? And and I could not have been the only guy who was like, Are you kidding me? You just said whatever anyway. So he's waiting for a new probe.
+
+[32:46] Uh are there any benefits to using a sonicator versus uh classic infusion or ISI infusions? By the way, uh, I'll probably also have access to a rotavap soon. Uh should I make ultrasonic absinthe? Thanks, Simon. Well, listen, if you're gonna rotovap, but you just blend that stuff, you don't need to worry about any sort of like high highfalutin infusion stuff uh because you're gonna distill it afterwards.
+
+[33:06] The one trick that actually Nastasia, I think, came up with for the rotovap, is when you're going to distill something that has plant matter blended up in it, add a little bit of Pectin X Ultra SPL to the product that you're going to distill. Why? Because uh pl blended plant residue without it tends to foam up a lot, and one of the main problems when you're running a rotary evaporator is getting boil over into your distillant. It ruins everything. How many hours have we spent cleaning out rotovaps after failed boils like that stuff?
+
+[33:29] So many hours. So many hours. So Nastasi was like, Dave, idiot, why don't you just put some SPL into it so that it the pectin breaks down and then it won't boil over? I mean, that's pretty much how it happened, right? I do not remember that.
+
+[33:51] Maybe you just did it by mistake. I don't know, but you did it and it caused me to never ha and never boil over uh habanero pepper into my if you boy if you blend habaneros or uh Naga Jolochias or Fatali peppers and you boil those over into your roto vap, I used to clean it twice with soap, lick it to verify that it wasn't hot anymore, then re-clean it to get rid of the fact that I had just licked it. It would take forever to clean those things. And so the SPL trick in the roto vap, I think is uh a good uh a good pro tip. Versus the uh now you talk about the ultrasonic uh homogenizer.
+
+[34:32] I have one. I never really came up with uh, you know, I know people who use it for infusions, but I've never had a side-by-side where I'm like, yeah, that stuff's delicious. Philip Preston sells them. Uh I know some people that use them, but I'm not the guy. I mean, I could test it, I still have one, but uh I just never built it in as part of what uh what I was doing.
+
+[34:53] Maybe because it sounded so freaking god-awful that I never wanted to hear it. Um I think some people who have them now have these like soundproof. It's even worse than that. It's even worse than that noise. It's like, how do I describe it?
+
+[35:08] It's like someone's drilling a hole in your head, but at like a super high, high uh thing. The closest thing without buying it is when you throw a dry ice chunk into a um into a hotel pan. Any of you ever done that? Nastas, you know that noise where you drop a chunk of dry ice in a hotel pan? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[35:30] Yeah. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Okay.
+
+[35:33] Uh we have uh Darren wrote in about a transglutaminase. He said, first of all, this is not hate mail. Uh uh, by the way, transglutaminase, for those of you that don't know, uh, transglutaminase is uh an enzyme, it's uh meat glue, right? So it's the it's the protein that you use to glue any one meat to any other, but it also strengthens uh doughs, right, by by reinforcing uh protein bonds in doughs. It also uh can strengthen cheese, tofu, but it's colloquially the chefs know it uh as meat glue.
+
+[36:08] And this is gonna become important later to this story. Uh meat glue, the transglutaminase that we use in the kitchen is what's called microbial transglutaminase. It's derived from uh you guessed it, microbes. Uh and it is different from and another fact that you that will become important later to the story is that your body is filled with transglutaminase because it's necessary for a bunch of things like blood clotting, hair growth, uh you know, skin, um, you know, manufacturing skin, all these kinds of things. And it also uh occurs in your intestine.
+
+[36:43] Uh now, tissue transglutaminase, which is the stuff that's in your body, there are there are many. There's not just one, there are many tissue transglutaminases in your body. Uh they do relatively similar thing to microbial transglutaminase, but they are in fact different, and the structure of the proteins, the structure of the enzyme is different. For instance, among many things, the transglutaminases in your body require calcium to work, whereas microbial transglutaminase does not. Now, a genomoto, like I said, makes the microbial transglutaminase and then sells it uh to chefs.
+
+[37:14] All right, so that's the background for what's about to happen in Darren's question. All right. First of all, this isn't hate mail. I love the results of uh transglutaminase has produced in my limited use of it. I've never eaten a chicken mousse that didn't can that didn't contain transglutaminase that didn't also have uh an odd grainy texture.
+
+[37:33] Uh aside from this, uh uh I was reading a study with a um with a link below that they give me, and it reminded me of another study that was done showing the dangers of transglutaminase for celiac patients. Uh further reading could not unearth this supposed groundbreaking study, but I came across several sources indicating that celiac uh disease uh attacks certain kinds of transglutaminase series that our body naturally produces. I'm no chemistry uh professional by any stretch, but this makes culinary but uh but this um makes sense because autoimmune syndromes attack our own body functions, suggesting that culinary transglutaminase is similar to the transglutaminase our body produces, giving a theory as to why it helps some celiac patients, as I remember you uh mentioning before. Now, already it's starting to get complicated, which we'll we'll get into. What bothered me after reading uh this is the discovery of several studies indicating the use of transglutaminase in several gluten-free products to strengthen protein crosslinks and mimic the texture and spring gluten puts in bread and pasta.
+
+[38:33] If celiac uh disease is in fact targeting transglutaminase series in the body that may react to gluten in their body, then adding it to gluten-free products seems counterintuitive. Again, this doesn't affect me, and I don't really condemn any food additive as I can uh as I accept it is it a fact of our food cycle now. But if you or anyone you know might have something that could shed some light on the subject, I'd be grateful. Meat glue already gets a bad enough wrap as is, and then below are some links in the studies that uh Darren linked to where the function of tissue transglutaminase and celiac disease, uh, and then something about uh some stuff of how they they use. Um there's an interesting article again with the funny article names food industrial micro microbial transglutaminase, that's not the funny part.
+
+[39:16] In celiac disease, treat or trick, which is apropos for Halloween that's coming up. Now I was reviewing some of these articles, and I gotta be honest, it's a little more than my morning perusal could uh get to the bottom of in terms of what's going on. But basically, here is here is kind of what's known, not known and what's going on. So in your gut, there are uh tissue transglutaminase, human transglutaminase in your gut. When you consume um uh gluten proteins, which can contain gliadin, which is the protein, that protein makes it uh through your gut relatively undigested because it's difficult to digest proline.
+
+[39:54] Uh uh, yeah, well, anyway, uh protein. But it protein. But what gut. But what happens is is that the transglutaminase there, gliadin is uh relatively uh interesting in the fact that it has many, many, many sites that transglutaminase can use, many free glutamines to bind it to other things. So uh gliadin reacts very strongly with uh tissue transglutaminase.
+
+[40:21] This like further bulks it up and maybe makes uh it more uh reactive for celiac diseases, disease uh suffers. Maybe. What also is known is that trisk tissue transglutaminase not only cross-links the proteins, but also does something called deamidate them, which means it's knocking off uh a functional group. And as far as I can tell, that really is one of the main problems that is causing the autoimmune response is this deamidation. Okay.
+
+[40:51] So uh that's what's happening to this uh gliadin uh that's in your system. Now, furthermore, uh transglutaminase in your gut might also be implicated in other aspects of the pathway besides simply its functioning with um gliadin, right? So there might be multiple things that are, or gliad, I don't know how you pronounce it, that might be happening, and all of that is unclear to me. Now, when you go to read the studies on um microbial transglutaminase, because remember that stuff's transglutaminase, it's already in your gut. Uh microbial transglutaminase, you are first of all, uh basically, if you cook it, you're deactivating it, the greater part of it, you're deactivating it.
+
+[41:31] And second of all, it functions uh slightly differently. The problem is when you go to look at the studies, right? So so some people have said this. Some people have said uh if you add uh microbial transglutaminase to things that uh contain uh gluten proteins, uh what you're actually doing is pre-react, you're making them stronger so you don't need to have as much of them, and you're also pre-reacting uh those proteins together so that they can't really undergo those reactions in your gut. Therefore, maybe it makes it uh less reactive uh for uh celiac sufferers.
+
+[42:06] That has been, as far as I can tell, inconclusive. Uh the uh on the other side of the coin, perhaps these larger um proteins that are made by crosslinking actually are more uh inflammatory and actually um cause more inflammation. This has also not been shown uh conclusively one way or the other. The third question is is if the microbial transglutaminase somehow uh survives cooking or if you're eating it raw and makes it through the gut, could it mimic what's going on with tissue transglutaminase in your gut? Also, this has not been conclusively uh tested one way or the other.
+
+[42:44] So as far as I can tell, none of these things have been tested. Now, what has been tested, because the Genomoto is worried about this, uh, are the very the these things. But I will say this, when you read the studies, uh, some of the studies that I've uh gone through, I think, including that food in industrial microbial transglutaminase article and some of the other ones, um, that uh if they're paid for by a Genomoto, just take that into account, right? Uh that the people that make the transglutaminase uh are have an axe to grind in this in this situation. Now the and their main points are are these.
+
+[43:23] One, uh they took uh pasta and they transglutaminase the heck out of it, and then they tested to see whether it uh created more reactive uh antibodies, I guess, uh in the human in the human body, and they were not able to cause that to happen. So they're basically saying it doesn't seem to make uh things like pasta that have been reinforced with uh transglutaminase more reactive than they were before. That's their first point. Their second point is is that is that uh you know you should not if if you have are suffer from the celiac or or are intolerant to gluten then you shouldn't contain thing you shouldn't eat things with gluten in them uh to begin with and therefore if there's gluten and transglutaminase then that won't be a problem right now what what that kind of leaves out is the fact that there's still the possibility as yet untested that things that are react that that might cause uh a response um i in in you when they're cross-linked by transglutaminase um wouldn't have caused a reaction in someone if they hadn't been linked by transglutaminase so it's theoretically possible that you could have two things which someone with celiac could consume without without without problem you meet glue them together and all of a sudden now it will cause a problem this has never been shown that there's a case of this but it is a theoretical possibility that needs to be uh looked at now a further thing that a Genomoto says is that look at the real problem with transglutaminase in um in in your gut isn't the cross linking the real problem is the deamidation and in fact they say microbial transglutaminase is much less likely to deam uh deamidate uh the protein than tissue transglutaminase and they did that not here's the problem though they didn't do that in someone's gut they did that in vitro and so their in vitro studies of microbial microbial transglutaminase did not effectively increase how much the protein had been deamidated. So that's their argument that it's not going to do that deamination thing.
+
+[45:33] Uh and their last and final argument is if you eat raw fish, if you eat raw meat, uh, they're full of transglutaminase anyway, actual tissue transglutaminase from the animal uh sources, and you consume those things raw. And so if those things don't cause a problem, microbial transglutaminase doesn't cause a problem either. But as far as I can tell, that's the long and the long, frankly, because uh all of that was long. Uh current story on um transgutaminase and celiac disease. That makes sense, Daz.
+
+[46:04] Yeah. You're already asleep. Yeah, she's got all that. She's already asleep. All right.
+
+[46:08] Hey Dave. Uh no, she's been taking notes. Yeah, sure. Taking notes about about how to call me a racist when we get off the air, even though I had no idea. So she's taking notes on.
+
+[46:17] Oh, yeah. Hey, can I just interject really quickly? I just want to shout out, um, I want to shout out Ed from Milk Cold Ice Cream. Remember he sent you all those ice cream sandwiches? Yeah, so do you get to go there on a regular basis now?
+
+[46:27] Yeah, I've been I've been hanging with him. He's a cool guy. Cool. Really good guy. Just want to shout out uh Ed from Milk Cult.
+
+[46:33] Shout out. What do you got, Dave? That's it. Dave, I got chat room is asking if you ever had a chance to look into that nitro tini thing. Did you read about this?
+
+[46:42] Oh, I forget. It's this bar in Charleston that serves uh a martini made with liquid nitrogen at like negative 320 degrees Fahrenheit. Wait, is it with liquid nitrogen and not with nitrous? Liquid nitrogen. All right, Dave, in the next couple minutes, if you can call up, or actually, Nastasia, if you can call up how this is done and figure it out so you can give it to me, then I'll I can rant it out real quickly.
+
+[47:05] Oh yeah? All right, read it. So this is the warning label that comes with the martini. It says liquid nitrogen is served at negative 320 degrees Fahrenheit. Nitrotines should be given the same respect as fire.
+
+[47:17] Avoid rapid ingestion of any nitrogene before consuming. Please allow a minimum of three minutes. Wait for the cloud-like liquid nitrogen LN2 to completely dissipate or evaporate entirely. Do not attempt to inhale the water vapor during dissipation, as it may disrupt the balance ratio of nitrogen to oxygen gas in the air that you breathe. Failure to follow this warning in its entirety may result in severe burns, permanent internal organ damage, and other detrimental health problems.
+
+[47:45] Please enjoy safely and responsibly. Why would you serve that? An eater in Charleston describe the taste of these as it says tastes like type 2 diabetes. Well, you know, uh Leo Robachek, one of my favorite uh bar uh people here in New York, whenever he drinks a drink that's too sweet, just goes, diabetes. That's all he says.
+
+[48:05] That's his only thing he says, diabetes. Like Wilford Brimley? Like Wilfrid Brimley, my favorite, my favorite diabetic pitch person. But the um he's the best. I mean, it doesn't get better for pitching uh uh diabetes stuff than uh Wilfred, you know, than him.
+
+[48:19] You know, I got diabetes, right? I mean, it's the best bitus. So anyway, so that's what Leo Robachek says. Uh, here's my thing. Why the hell would you serve that?
+
+[48:27] Right. Why the hell Also they're $19. That's I don't care how much you charge, right? Charge a billion dollars. Doesn't matter to me.
+
+[48:34] Like, if you know, God bless restaurants out there, bars out there. If you can charge something and somebody wants to pay it, God bless. You know what I mean? Like everyone's got to make a nickel. Think of how much money, Dave, people make for doing things that we don't respect in life.
+
+[48:48] Think of how much freaking money people go out and make for anything. So the fact that a restaurant or a bar can charge whatever they want to charge for whatever they're doing, God bless. What do you think, Stas, right? No. Yeah, I guess so.
+
+[49:03] Yeah. I mean, like, you know, if you think they're if you think they're ripping you off as a customer, don't go there. I don't like when people are like, I can't believe what they're charging. I drink should only cost $12. They go to a place that charges $12 for drinks.
+
+[49:18] Then that place. Don't order a drink. Go somewhere else. Right, but this is also a drink that can cause permanent organ damage. That's the problem.
+
+[49:26] So like it's the cost of it is not a problem. But why would you ever serve that? That's like, first of all, that's like straight up gimmick. Second of all, no drink, it's very hard to get an accurate chill with liquid nitrogen. Very hard.
+
+[49:38] And believe me, I've been doing it for years. One of the reasons it's really hard is because uh you can't even see what's going on. It's very hard to judge how much you've added. So unless you have some sort of special volumetric liquid nitrogen adder, it's very hard to figure out. You need more than you think to chill it down.
+
+[49:57] So odds are you're gonna get some nasty crust on the top of your drink and then a liquid underneath. Very hard. If you mix it while it's got liquid nitrogen, it'll froth and spit and boil over into some in into the face. And what and I don't like being told to wait. Someone's gonna drink it.
+
+[50:15] Someone's gonna do it. You know what I mean? I think a better uh drink would be to hand someone a first of all, why is there sugar in a martini? Why the hell is there sugar in it anyway? I did they just hit me.
+
+[50:25] Why is there sugar in this martini? It's not a martini if there's sugar in it. Why is there sugar? I I don't have that answer. Okay.
+
+[50:32] So I think a better thing to do would be to uh uh have a bunch of spinning razor blades that you suspend from the ceiling right in front of the patron's face, and then say if you lean forward, your face will get cut off, and then just serve them a normal drink because it's the same amount of danger if they don't follow the instructions, they get their face cut off, but at least the drink will be good. You know what I mean? Like I'd rather have like some other physical harm, or like have a whole bunch of uh chef knives sticking straight up uh out of the bar surface, and if you put the drink down wrong, you'll impale yourself. Like it's the same same level of stupid. Why would you hand somebody a drink that can harm them?
+
+[51:17] It's just really, really stupid. What do you think, Nastasia? Yeah, no, it's very, very stupid. And you know, when somebody messes up, as they will uh in a situation like that, you know what's gonna happen? Like, people like us are not gonna be able to use the liquid nitrogen anymore, even though it's completely valid, because someone will have will have ingested uh the liquid to me.
+
+[51:41] It seems like it's the same level of shock as any one of the any one of the other weird shock things that people do. I mean, look, again, God bless your place. If like this is the way to get the customers in, just don't do it in a way that could theoretically harm a your customer, and B, other people who want to use the technique in a different way. This is why we can't have nice things. This is why we can't have nice things.
+
+[52:04] Exactly. That was what's the name of that comedian that she when she said that about her own body when she got cancer? She says she's hilarious. What's her name? Yeah.
+
+[52:13] She said she had she got cancer and then said, This is why I can't have nice things about her own body. Awesome. Amazing. So hilarious. Uh if you can laugh about that, like you are a strong person.
+
+[52:24] You know what I mean? Anyway, uh, so okay, I got uh a question here I want to get to before we go. Emily Burns writes in all right. I've been wanting to make hickory syrup, and all the recipes I've seen use the bark of a shag bar kickery. So this is not a tap the tree in the early spring, uh, like a maple situation.
+
+[52:43] You're making a bark tea and then adding sugar to it. A bark tea. Stus, what do you think about bark tea? Is that bother you or are you all right with that? She's gone.
+
+[52:53] Cherry's still out. Yeah. Uh my neighbors have a shell bar kickery tree. So I've been searching to see if there would be any difference in a syrup made from that bark. I haven't found any answers online, so I'm wondering if you had any idea.
+
+[53:05] Thanks, love the show, Emily Burns. Well, first of all, I looked it up again. So for those of you that don't know, shell b uh shagbar kickery is like one of the great nut trees of um the United States. It's carya ovata. It's related uh to pecans, and I I've cooked a Nastasi and I and Piper when he was with us did a lot of work with um Shag Bar Kickory nuts.
+
+[53:26] They're amazing. They taste freaking amazing. I like them more than a pecan, but they're just really hard to get the nut out of. Now, there are various uh one of the things about shagbar kickery is it's called it's one of the most aptly named trees you can find because the bark looks super shaggy and is coming off in big things. So you can go into the forest, grab the bark off of it without hurting the tree, make a tea.
+
+[53:49] Uh uh there's some art to making the tea, apparently from what I've read, and then you dope in of because it gets bitter, you dope in uh sugar, and there you have your syrup. Uh now the uh shell bark hickory has is also known as the king nut, is has the largest, I think hickory nut, and then nut itself is as sweet as the um nut in a shag bark hickory. And I think its bark, while not as shaggy as a shag bar kickery, is still quite shaggy. And so if you can remove the bark without damaging the tree, I'd say go ahead and do it. I have some shag bar kickeries uh up in Connecticut, so then if I can ever get back up to Connecticut, I'm gonna try to get some and make some of this.
+
+[54:28] Now, what I don't know, you know, a lot of the other hickories, I have a lot of what's called like mocker nut hickories and pignut hickories. Uh pig nuts especially have terrible tasting uh uh nuts. They're super tannic. I've you know I've always tried to find ones that are they're completely nedable. I don't know if that would translate to the bark, but the other problem is those trees don't have the kind of bark that sheds off properly.
+
+[54:50] So I'm gonna go ahead and say that shell bark hickory will probably uh make as good a syrup as uh shag bark, and one of the reasons you don't hear about it is that shell bark is uh a lot rarer than shag bark. And I also read that in some places the shell bark is also called shag bark, even though they're actually two different species. The the shell bark being uh caria uh uh la seniosa, which I don't know, but carry all vada is the one we get shagbark. So give us a try and let us know. I'll try to make it with my shag bark and maybe we can compare notes over the radio.
+
+[55:22] Uh shout-outs to uh Raymond uh Lochero. Is that how you pronounce that, Dave? Lochichero? I don't know. Uh what?
+
+[55:30] Donor, I was giving a shout out, I was giving a donor shout out. Thanks for donating. Oh, thanks. And uh that's it. We'll back next week.
+
+[55:37] Back next week with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
+
+[56:10] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J O U L E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, you know, 12-ish to like around one o'clock. Uh, you know, from uh Roberta's Pizzeria. And where is it, Nastasia? Bushwick.
+
+[0:44] Bushwick. Bushwick. Brrrrr. Join, as usual, uh, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in the studio. How are you doing, Nastas?
+
+[0:56] Good. Yeah, got David in the booth, right? Also good. Yeah. Uh we weren't here last week because I was in um Barcelona.
+
+[1:03] In fact, I just gave uh by the way, like if you have like a co-worker, it's a good idea to bring them some some crap back. Sure. So I went to uh Barcelona. Uh first of all, I had for the first time uh that Spanish style gin and tonic. Although they're like Catalan style, catalan.
+
+[1:20] I'm like, okay, okay, okay, whatever. Catalan style, gin and tonic. Uh so we can talk about that later if we have time. Uh but I went to uh one of these uh old and very well-known um bakeries in Barcelona. This one's called Colmina Colom Colomina, it means honey like beehive in uh Spanish, and it's these hard candies they've been making since eighteen forty-night.
+
+[1:41] What do you think? They're weird flavors. What flavor is it? It tastes like a cough job, but it's called Molomani. I'll have to look it up.
+
+[1:49] It's some of them are herbal, some of them are fruity. They're all different. Anyway. Call in your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:59] Uh also in the cooking issues uh style of news, this weekend, Sunday is the first day of the uh Chow exhibit, the general one. The we tomorrow we have our Kickstarter benefit, I guess, or VIP benefit or whatever. And then on Sunday is the opening. So if you want to head down to 72 uh 62, rather, 62 Bayard Street, uh right off McCarron Park in Brooklyn. They say it's Williamsburg, but in the real life it's Greenpoint.
+
+[2:22] We all know it's Green Point. Uh right, Sasmi. If you have to so for those of you that never been to New York, like there's this like horrible road called the Brooklyn Queens Expressway, the BQE, and it basically cuts a whole section of Brooklyn and Queens off from the rest of the universe, like towards the waterline. And generally, like once you cross under that, you're not in Williamsburg no more. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:44] What do you think, David? You agree with me on this? Uh yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I mean McCarn McCarron Park, that's like Greenpoint, yeah?
+
+[2:52] Anyway. Uh yeah, sure. He's like, I don't really care. I live really far away from there, so I kind of don't. It's like, yeah.
+
+[2:58] You know, the the thing is that like the individual neighborhoods in in uh New York uh have become so hip that so when I was like, you know, twenty something years ago, like uh when I w worked in a metal fabricating shop in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, called SFW, as in so blanking what metals. That was literally the name of the shop where I worked, inhaling like black metal dust all day long. Uh but so what? But so what? But but there was no one there.
+
+[3:29] I mean, like it was like that, like the idea of a hipster, like with you told someone you were moving to Greenpoint, they're like, Where? What? Now it's so hip in Greenpoint that the people in Greenpoint never leave Green Point. So they're like, in other words, the point being that they're so insulated there in Greenpoint land that like what like why be so close to Manhattan? Like, what's the point?
+
+[3:51] Like, you might be anywhere. It could be anywhere. Anywhere. Anywhere. Columbus, Columbus, yes.
+
+[3:57] Exactly. Right? Because it's not like it's not like those. There's hipster hubs in those places. Sure.
+
+[4:03] And like, you know, I guess there is a theoretical G train connection from Green Point to the rest of New York City. But not really. No, it's kind of just theoretical, right? Yeah, I mean, I live in Didmus Park, so that is definitely theoretical. It's it's like 20 stops on the G or something to get from Williamsburg to Dipmas.
+
+[4:21] How close is that to the Ditmas Avenue stop on the F. Um I'm about a 10-15 minute walk from that. I'm closer to the B in the Q. Do you go to Train World ever? That's like an awesome huge model train shop right on Ditmas.
+
+[4:33] Nope. Missing out. If you're a model train person, as uh my you know, my son Booker is just that you were gonna say as Nastasia is. Would you imagine like the idea of Nastasia sitting in her room? You would hear me talk about trains and then go home and hear Booker talking about it.
+
+[4:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because all of Booker likes his trains, but like subway trains only, but like I now I have this image of Nastasia going home, putting on one of those blue and white engineer hats, you know, those like caps with my bottles. Playing with your model trains all day. Maybe it's her secret obsession. And when I call, it's like you hear the you hear the wee clack clack clack clack.
+
+[5:07] I'm like, what is that, Nastasia? Nothing, shut up. Just running her model trains all day. That would be that would be the ultimate secret. It'd be right amazing.
+
+[5:15] It's just not in your character at all. Like you have like five levels, like going all over the room. I would though have one, like a Christmas train. Oh, around the tree? I would, yeah.
+
+[5:23] Do you do you want one? I would, yeah. I can bring some. I don't have a lot of I can bring some tracks home. I don't have any room.
+
+[5:29] If I have a big I can give you the case. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. For the tree. The minimum oval is 30. But then I want all the little Christmas houses too.
+
+[5:39] Yeah, then now you're talking a lot. The minimum oval on an O gauge train is 27 inches. It's called O27. That's small. I'm telling you, you can get a small track.
+
+[5:49] You know, but you have to only certain engines run on the O27. Maybe. Yeah. The rest run on the O31. Booker would loan you one of his Santa Fe's because he does not care.
+
+[5:58] He only cares about a Santa Fe? I have plenty of track. Do they have uh Metro North one? Uh now you're talking money. Once you're licensing stuff, like so like this one company, MTH used to have the license for uh the subway, the New York City subway, until they put out a graffitied model.
+
+[6:16] MTA was like, crap on you, crap on you. So they gave it back to Lionel, but because it's an official license, Lionel like totally rakes you over the coals for the money. So what MTH did is they started selling non-licensed things that look exactly like the MTA things. They just don't have the MTA stickers, and then other jokers are selling the MTA stickers to stick on it. Yeah, of course you would.
+
+[6:37] It's because you're just like me that way. You're like, yeah, I don't really care whether it's real or not. A couple of scam artists for the Christmas tree, you know. Anyway. Well, it's a couple of scam.
+
+[6:45] Please. Oh. Oh my god, Dave. If I did the MTA train, then you'd have to build. I mean, the Metro North, you'd have to build a little um Leatherman.
+
+[6:53] Oh my god. Did we talk about Leatherman on the air? Yeah. We talked to Dave, we talked about Leatherman, right? The guy who walked around Connecticut guy who I would be, were it not for the fact that I have a wife and kids.
+
+[7:03] Maybe it is Leatherman? I don't recall that. You don't want to call it Leatherman? Uh-huh. So uh Is it like a like a dungeon kind of thing?
+
+[7:09] Leather daddy. No, it's not. Oh god, no. It's not really cooking related either, but there's this guy. There's this guy, and nobody knows his real name.
+
+[7:17] People say they know his real name, but they don't. All that crap was made up. They know he was like French-ish, like he could speak some French, kinda. And in the 1800s, from like I guess just after the Civil War until he died in I think 83 or 89, 1889, he would just walk a uh a 300 and uh something mile trail uh looping from Westchester right over by the Hudson by Ausning all up over through into Connecticut, down to Connecticut River, down the Connecticut River, and then along the shoreline and just loop it. And he would walk about 10 miles a day f every day of the year, rain, wind, snow, the biggest blizzard of the century they had in the 1800s, stopped him for I think three days, put him three days behind schedule, and he would just sleep outside under these rock overhangs, which they call leatherman caves, even though they're not actual caves because Connecticut doesn't have real caves.
+
+[8:07] And like occasionally people give him stuff to eat, and he sewed all of his clothing. There are pictures of him, you can look them up. They sewed all of his clothing out of discarded boots that he cut the tops off of and laced them all together into this like big like uh outfit. So there are there are photoshopped images of my face over the leather man's body. Why?
+
+[8:25] Because I would if it wasn't for the fact that I had kids and a wife, you know, those are those are your only anchors to prevent you from spinning out of control into that world? Pretty much. Leatherman reenactment. Someone already did it though. Well, the other reason look, like I have a place in Chester, Connecticut, and he used to walk through Chester, and like I spent a good portion of my childhood in Chappaqua slash Mount Kisco, New York, and he used to walk through Mount Kisco.
+
+[8:53] In fact, he died on the Westchester side. So basically, I'm already living the Leatherman life anyway. I already I'm already so cheap that I'll walk anywhere for no reason, like without having, you know. Uh so you know, I feel like what's the point? What's the point of anything?
+
+[9:11] He's just walking. So existential. You know? It's like I know, but what would the point be for you? Point for me?
+
+[9:18] Yeah. What else am I going to do? I've already lost my house because I haven't paid my bills. I've already like this is hypothetical. I'm saying if I didn't have a family to attack me down, you know what I mean?
+
+[9:28] I'd be a nightmare. Anyway, so back to cooking related things. By the way, we had a question a couple uh weeks ago on hickory syrup, and I report back that I made some. So hickory syrup is not like maple syrup, and that you don't make it from the sap of uh hickory, you make it from the bark. And um, you know what?
+
+[9:46] Um, okay, so for those of you that don't know, the the the most famous kind of hickory tree in terms of the nuts anyway, is called the shag bark hickory. And uh there are some other ones. Uh many of them have awful flavored nuts, like the um pig nut hickory taste and the bitternut hickory, clearly are terrible tasting uh hickories. There's also the mocker nut, which doesn't, I don't think taste bad, but it's just very difficult to crack. Uh, and the shell bark, which is a variant on the shag bark.
+
+[10:11] But anyway, I digress. So the nuts are delicious. And then, you know, we've talked about it a couple of years ago. We went on a hickory nut cake. We love hickory nuts.
+
+[10:18] Hickory nuts are awesome. I love them. They're delicious. They are like, you know, pecan is a good nut, which is closely related to hickory nut, but the hickory nut is actually, in my opinion, a superior nut, just much harder to get to. So, and smaller than a pecan.
+
+[10:31] So, so the pecan wins from a commercial standpoint. Whatever. Whatever. Uh in nostasi, that's another thing you don't like, right? Pecan pie?
+
+[10:38] No, not really, no. Oh my god. Um, I do like your pecan sours. Yeah, those are good. Yeah.
+
+[10:45] Yeah. Remember, well, Nastasia, we won't get into it because it's not fran family friendly what Nastasia did at the event where we were making those things. No, that was Oh, yeah. No, that was you. You got so angry they wouldn't let you behind the bar at the YMCA.
+
+[10:59] That's not Jack. It's not safe for work, what happened in that situation. Uh that's you know, for the next time we have an unexprigated uh uh cooking issues, then uh, you know, someone can call in and request that they get the Nastasia Lopez YMCA pecan story. Let's do that. We'll get Johnny Walker to sponsor.
+
+[11:18] Yeah, all right. We can say that we made it with Johnny Walker, who knows? Uh I mean uh I don't even remember what we made it with you. No. I have no idea.
+
+[11:25] Anyway, I I just remember the story, the anger and uh well, whatever, gotta get it. It it involves it involves dietary laws, it's it's a nightmare. So the religion, dietary laws, uh Nastasia's uh, you know, lack of respect for either. Anyway, so uh so back to hickory. So shag bark hickory, uh one of the interesting things about it is that it is one of the most aptly named trees that exists.
+
+[11:51] The bark looks shaggy, almost like uh like a 60s rocker's feathered out hair, you know what I mean? Like it just comes off in big kind of strips and it's layered as it comes down the tree and it peels off. What that means is you can harvest the bark rather easily without damaging the tree because you can just rip off the pieces. In fact, I have some pictures of the bark, I'll post it later. Uh you know, after I post my obligatory post for uh, you know who uh Nastasia's getting mad at me.
+
+[12:16] Uh because it turns out if someone this is separate, but if someone pays you money, you have to do a certain number of posts, and they don't pay you the money until you've done said certain number of posts, and I'm terrible at that. And so Nastasia's been riding me like a trick pony for like a week and a half. Put up the last post. Whatever, please. Okay.
+
+[12:33] I'm a bad man. It's stipulated. So the um, so anyway, so someone asked me about making it any takes trips or they're not tips or uh tricks that I had. So I went out into the woods because I know where I have a shag bar kickery. It's actually on the neighbor's property, but whatever.
+
+[12:48] There they what the hell do they know? They're not using it. So I went up and I ripped some of the bark off uh without damaging the tree. And by the way, so I didn't measure anything, but I harvested enough for about three liters of syrup, and I harvested it in like under two minutes. Because it's just like snap, snap, snap, snap, and walk out.
+
+[13:04] Now, um here's the techniques I used in case you know. I thought it came out very uh well, so you follow these techniques again with no measurement. I took them uh back inside, I scrubbed them to get any sort of moss, lichen, or like you know, buggy, like you know, you know, caterpillary tentee craps off of them because that's gross. Um I snapped uh I then snapped it into pieces that would fit into my uh oven. I toasted them in the oven.
+
+[13:29] Well, I baked them in the oven at 350 to 375 for like 10-15 minutes until I started to get the aroma out. Opened it, the oven, let them flash off and uh get uh you know dry, snapped them into small pieces, um, you know, fairly small pieces, like I don't know, like an inch, an inch and a half. I wasn't too anal about it. Here's the one kind of tech trick I did. I then put them in a vacuum machine and sucked a vacuum on them in water, like uh two, three times to infuse them rapidly so that they'd be rapidly infused with water, wouldn't float at the top.
+
+[14:01] Uh, I thought that was a good idea. Then I put them into a big pot uh with uh water. I covered it and added a little more, but I wanted to keep it a fair, I wanted to have a very high see. See, people have problems with this becoming bitter, and so I didn't want it to become bitter, and usually the way you do that is you do relatively quick steeves with relatively large amounts of product in into not as much water. Uh so I did that.
+
+[14:24] And then I brought it up to a boil, uh, turned it off, covered it, let it steep for a while, kept checking it when it was brown but not too bitter. I strained it, discarded the bark back outside. Then uh I reduced the um product down by a factor of two. So uh I started with about four liters of uh stuff, uh liquid, uh four or four and a half. I reduced it down actually more than twice, reduced it down.
+
+[14:51] Um then after it had been reduced down to a little less than half, I added uh equal weight in of sugar, stirred it into a syrup, and that was it. Uh and it was good. So the things I recommend, I recommend if you have a vacuum, you do a vacuum infusion so that you have the water on the inside really quickly. Uh I recommend like bringing it up to a simmer, then letting it steep and keep testing it while it's going so it doesn't get too too bitter. And then I recommend uh draining and then reducing it substantially to increase the flavor profile before adding the sugar.
+
+[15:20] And I've used it so far in uh I made an old-fashioned with it that was delicious, uh, in my opinion. Uh and that was just, you know, three-eighths of that hickory syrup and two of uh whiskey and uh a dash or two of ango and an orange twist. I also um because it does have some uh tannins in it, is it slightly has some slight bitterness in the back. I did a I used it in a shaken sour, which was actually uh interesting, but not with bourbon. I did a daiquiri.
+
+[15:49] I did an aged, uh I did an aged um rum egg white uh hickory syrup daiquiri, and it was really good. And some of the yeah, the egg, yeah, the egg white. Interestingly, I also tested that recipe, Nastasia, just for the just for you know giggles. I tested it in an ISI whipper and Misi whipper to see what would happen. I was like, you know what?
+
+[16:07] Uh I hate doing cocktail foams, right? I've always hated doing cocktail foams, so I don't do it. Uh so but since I'm not on a bar anymore, I can kind of do whatever I want. So I was like, uh, well, what if I were to put this cocktail into like uh a foam with the egg white? So I did a dry shake in the thing, then I added the ice, shook it, added that nitrous, shook it, and then pumped the cocktail out.
+
+[16:29] And Nastasia, the cocktail filled like three glasses, one cocktail filled like three glasses, a hundred percent foam, hundred percent foam, no liquid. I was like, what the hell am I gonna do with this? But it was good, but like, do you want to drink a foam? You can put it on pie, right? Oh, that's a good idea, like a cocktail pie.
+
+[16:47] Eventually it settles out, but you have like minutes. You have on the order of like minutes. Yeah, if you put it on like a pumpkin pie. That's a good idea. A daiquiri on top of a pumpkin pie.
+
+[16:56] That'd be good. That'd be really good. Yeah, nice. Uh I mean it needs to be contained a little bit, so what you maybe you'd have like some pie in the bottom of a cup, like a like a parf parfait cup, and then uh some of that stuff on top. That's that's smart.
+
+[17:09] That's smart. I like pumpkin pie. You know what I don't think? A little bit tipsy on the foam. A little bit, yeah, a little bit, yeah.
+
+[17:17] In fact, I could probably dope it back with cream too and make it like really now. You have little Jayquan going through my head. Everybody in the club, everybody in the club with tipsy. Anyway, so that was what uh that's my results with hickory syrup, and thanks for whoever brought it up uh so that I could test it. I recommend going out and foraging for that crud.
+
+[17:35] Um here's a question on fryers from 80 in Russia. Uh you've spoken uh on about this before, but I can't find your answer. Like espresso machines, traditional deep fryers in British fish and chip shops. What do you think about the fish and chips? As opposed to like French fries, chips.
+
+[17:50] What do you think about calling them chips as possible? I guess they called it first, right? Who says that? I don't know. They're not called British fries.
+
+[17:59] I don't know. Traditional deep fryers in British fish and chip shops worked by the thermal mass of the huge fryer warming up, fired by gas, and recovering after the addition of bucket loads of cold potatoes to make chips. I see uh, excuse me. I see commercial line fryers, meaning continuous fryers, I guess, that make potato chips like uh Lay's or tortilla chips uh that have uh PID uh controllers and internal conveyor belts to move the product through the oil. If I want to increase consistency and temperature recovery, is it worth adding a PID over the thermostatic control on a bench top electric deep fryer?
+
+[18:34] Best 80, a cold Englishman in Moscow, Russia. And PS, before I answer this question, PS, Nastasia, is there any chance you could get Mark Ladner on to talk about the Del Posta cookbook on the air? I, for one, am interested. He said you do it next Tuesday. Really?
+
+[18:49] Mm-hmm. All right, there you have it. Next Tuesday, people, tune in, be ready for it. Um if they're still talking to me. Next week on Monday is the first installment where I go to Oto, you know, the Mario Batali's pizza restaurant.
+
+[19:01] And I have to go all the time, right? Every time you're there. If you don't, I'll murder you. Uh and so I have to prep. So I'm doing I'm going to Otto and we're and I'm gonna be making cocktails behind the bar at Otto.
+
+[19:11] So I'm doing a uh, I think I'm I'm using uh some of them, I'm doing a carbonated amaro uh like you know, spritzer with uh probably with lime. Uh and I'm doing a uh apricot into bourbon uh Hustino, and I'm gonna do a Italian basil nitrom uh gin sour. What do you think? I think I'm gonna add a little bit of stream to that son of a gun. How long are you there for?
+
+[19:41] How many hours? Like, I don't know. I think from like something till close. What time do they close? Four.
+
+[19:48] In the morning? A pizza joint? Yeah. Really? I don't think I'm gonna be there till four.
+
+[19:52] I mean, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. As soon as soon as my kids are asleep and my wife's asleep, it doesn't matter what time I come up. Go straight Leatherman, yeah. Yeah, go Leatherman to start walking. They're like, where are you going?
+
+[20:01] Straight Leatherman. Go straight Leatherman. It's like, well, I gotta get up out of the city so I can get back on my loop. He didn't like traveling in cities because people in the cities used to pick on him. So he would avoid the he would avoid the main the main routes.
+
+[20:14] And for those of you that don't know, who've never been to the northeast here, like a lot of that kind of land where he used to walk around is forested now, but back in the day wasn't. It was all cleared. There weren't a lot of like you know, forested trees around. SF's all second growth. So yeah, so he would just like there'd be these rock outcroppings where he'd go hang out and like you know, cook whatever in the heck he was eating, because he also had, I think, like a tin pot.
+
+[20:35] Apparently he a lot like me, he would carry like 60, 70 pounds of gear around for no reason. Just for no reason. Like all the time. He's only walking 10 miles a day. So you just say the encroachment of civilization is hurting Leatherman?
+
+[20:47] Well, he he he he did. He died. He had cancer. Oh yeah, he died in the 1880s. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:52] He was he was doing this in the 1880s. I think I may have come back and say he he had a uh some sort of horrible mouth cancer that was eating away at his lips for the last year, year and a half of his life, and someone tried to take him to the uh the hospital. He's like, and then got back out and started walking again. Now that's commitment. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:13] Never stop. Never stop. Don't stop till you drop, man. That's it. Boom.
+
+[21:18] It's like, why are you doing you know, why do you engineer, Dave? Like, why are you sitting there engineering? And it's because they pay you, but why do you need the money? So you can eat Leatherman ate. He didn't have any money.
+
+[21:26] You know what I'm saying? It's like, what's the reason to doing anything? He's like, I'm walking. Anyway. So we should all just walk, is what you're saying?
+
+[21:32] No, I'm saying it's like, you know, he had a goal. I'm gonna walk ten miles a day. I'm gonna carry my crap with me, I'm gonna wear boots. Was that his goal to do 10 miles a day, or that was just incidental? I think it was incidental, right?
+
+[21:43] He was pretty much, he was like a watch. People would people be like, uh, it's time for the leather man to come around. He wasn't like a pro walker, he was just like a survivor. Mm-hmm. So, okay, so if he liked you, like if you he didn't really want to talk to you.
+
+[21:55] So there's this one group that took a like that like would give him soup or whatever, and he'd stop by and you'd take it, he wouldn't talk to him or anything. But one time they set up like uh a camera with a sheet over it, and then as he was sitting, they dropped the sheet and took the picture, and there's this picture of him where he has this kind of like look on his face. I thought this was in the eighteen hundreds, you said can't be eight hundred man, get with it. Yeah, but didn't it take like hours for it to take a photo? This is like the eighteen seventies.
+
+[22:20] I think they've it's a little bit better than like in the eighteen sixties where they're like not up on my history of photography. I mean, it wasn't like instant, but anyway, so anyway, they surprised me. He never knew there weren't Polaroids. Right. He never went back to that uh house again.
+
+[22:32] So like what happened is like if if you were nice to him and he like liked you, he would come back to your house every or your whatever every 34 days. But did he talk? Not much. There's a lot of holes in this story, or anything, Nastasia? Uh I mean, look, I've read all of the relevant literature.
+
+[22:50] So the point is is that he would just show up and then but if you were mean to him or like were like trying to force him to he'd be like, You'd never show up again at your place. He's like, You're I'm done with you. Give you wide birth. It's kind of a good thing, right? If he doesn't show up.
+
+[22:59] Everyone kind of wanted him to show up. At that time in the US, there were a lot of what's called anti-tramp laws because a lot of people were uh roaming around, a lot of people were displaced um from like traditional farmland, traditional jobs. So there was a lot of wandering, a lot of tramps, like hobo style, but like earlier. And um they were widely hated, and a lot of people like passed anti-tramp laws, and in fact there was lots of beatings, murdering of tramps, people like had uh doing all sorts of terrible things to vagrants. Uh so this is not just a modern phenomenon.
+
+[23:31] Uh and um he was the one exception. People were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anti-tramp law, but don't mess with the leatherman. He's dumb. No.
+
+[23:39] You know what I mean? In fact, like these one group of people basically got the snot beat out of them for messing with the leathermen. Can you post a photo of the leatherman? Yeah, actually, chat room just linked me to the Wikipedia page and there's some photos of it. Nastasia's talking about the one that's my face on the Leatherman's body.
+
+[23:55] Oh, yeah. I didn't spend that much time photoshopping it. Like I didn't, for instance, although it's a perfect look it's in black and white. Yeah, I mean, it's not. What you really want to do if you're gonna fake the photo is obviously pose yourself in the same sort of pose that the person was in and try to match the angle of the camera.
+
+[24:10] I just like found the fastest photo I could find on the internet, cut out my face and stuff it onto the leatherman's body. And really, if you wanted to go full method, you would have to be like living like Leatherman for at least a week or so just to get into that mindset. I think it takes a couple of years. I'd have to learn French, first of all, and then not speak it to anyone. That would be like the first the first thing.
+
+[24:27] I mean, I used to know some French, but not enough. Anyway, back to the question. But we were talking about here. Should I add a PID controller to my fryer so that I can approximate what happens in continuous frying, uh, 80? And the answer is no, you should not, and here is why.
+
+[24:41] Uh, or as Mirvo would say, here is why you should not. That's a mix between Mirvold and my professor Raymond Goyce for the first time. Or as Leatherman would say, pork well. Yeah. Or just what he would say.
+
+[24:52] You're like, uh, Leatherman, how is the food? And then you would just walk away. Anyway, uh, do you trying to get me back off, Dave? Trying to get me back off topic. Uh I don't like the way you praise that sentence.
+
+[25:02] Anyway. Oh, come on. This is one of the family shows. So anyway. So anyway, so uh you don't want to do that.
+
+[25:13] Here's why. Um in a continuous continuous frying is exactly what it says it is. It's continuous. That means you don't want any change one way or the other. They are extremely they're typically very long and they're very, very highly regulated.
+
+[25:25] So uh, you know, the first like two, three, four hundred pounds, I don't know, it depends on the size of a line, but the first whole bunch uh of stuff that comes out of the fryer is not gonna be right. Uh it'll be over, it'll be under, whatever, until everything comes into equilibrium. And so typically these things take a long time to calibrate, but then they run them for you know, forever. So like they have a P ID controller on their oil because they want to keep the oil at a certain place at exactly the same temperature. They know that they're adding X number of pounds of potatoes or tortilla chips every hour, and they eventually know what heat average heat input they need into the oil to keep it at the at the right point.
+
+[26:04] And there's a gradation probably uh definitely in the oil temperature from the beginning of the line to the uh to the end of the line, but everything stays constant because they have a relatively constant heat input, they have a really relatively constant potato input, and they're also adding fresh oil because the miracle of continuous frying, the miracle of it, is that you can you absorb oil, uh, you add oil at the rate that it is absorbed by your potato or your tortilla chip, and if you get everything just right, then the oil is always perfectly conditioned because brand new fry oil is not good and old fry oil is not good. The reason brand new fry oil is not good is uh it actually is um too pure and it doesn't bond as it doesn't uh um transmit heat as well to the uh chips. A little bit of breakdown makes it uh slightly uh more polar and transmits uh the energy much better to the chips. So you actually want it to slightly break down, uh, but you don't want it too much. And so in a continuous fryer, you can keep everything perfect by uh adjusting the rate of uh product in potatoes or tortillas uh and the rate of oil in so that the oil in there is constantly right.
+
+[27:09] So it's all about juggling these kind of that's why you can't make just a few things in a continuous fryer. And for that, PID is perfect, perfect. Everything is perfect all the time. The oil is always the same, the potato chips or whatever are always the same, everything takes exactly the same amount of time. Awesome.
+
+[27:28] Uh by contrast, uh in batch frying, you are dumping a load in to a single batch, the temperature is gonna drop, and you need to get that temperature back up. Now, here you don't want a PID. Now, you could have a PID that realizes, but it's just very aggressively tuned, so that it rockets back up close to your finished temperature, but then knows to slow down a little bit as you're coming up so that you don't overshoot a lot. So there might be a situation where you don't where you can win over a standard like bang bang uh thermostat, but depending on the amount of temperature rise you're gonna get. Usually, let's say let's say you dump a bunch of stuff into a deep fryer and it temperature drops real low, it turns the heat way on, and you're rocketing up through to your set point.
+
+[28:12] Now, if you have only a small amount of product in there, maybe it can overshoot a lot, but odds are by the time if your fryer is really powerful, by the time it hits that uh hits back at its temperature, you're still boiling a lot of water off out of your product, so you shouldn't get that much of a rise out of it, theoretically, especially if you have good convection in it, which is why real tube fryers are awesome because they don't uh tend to locally overheat your oil because they have a much larger surface area uh to put heat into the oil. Anyway, so uh if you have an actual commercial fryer with a bang bang thermostat on it, it doesn't tend to overheat your oil. Um, and they're pretty awesome. And really, you don't need single degree control over the oil uh temperature anyway. You just don't want it to get too too low, and you don't want it to go high, and you want your recovery to be fast.
+
+[29:00] So I would say no, do not PID it. Although, um, the converse, I'm gonna go back, I want to say if you're going to pot fry, uh, I think having a um using one of those controlled like induction units for frying can be very useful because it's very hard uh at home uh to pay attention to a fryer all the time when you're doing a bunch of other stuff, and it's very easy to overheat your fry oil on uh on a stove top. And so one of these inductions like the Breville one that I got sent or any of the other ones can be very useful in keeping your fry oil uh so it doesn't go up too uh too high. And certain of those, like the Breville, can have like an aggressive setting where it can get back up to a temperature aggressively. Uh it's not as much as like on off, but it's much more aggressive than uh the more standard PIDs.
+
+[29:48] And uh a lot of PID technology, by the way, in terms of cooking and a lot of what's different between different circulators, is how aggressive their uh strategy is. A more aggressive strategy will get you to the temperature faster, but have some overshoot. Anyway, what do you think, Stas? Good job. Okay.
+
+[29:59] Um Anthony from Nashville uh writes in about Booker Index. Uh hey Dave Hammer, uh David and guests. Uh I was wondering if you could talk a bit about closing down Booker Index in the process of finding a new location. What you'll be looking for in a new spot, and what kind of changes will you include in the new bar and why? Maybe it's me, but it seems like you didn't talk about it too much on the show, which is why I had to get information from the internets.
+
+[30:24] Sorry if I'm bringing up a sore subject. Anyway, you guys are great. Uh love the show, Anthony from Nashville. Well, the problem, Anthony, is that um there's only so much that I can say uh because I'm not allowed to say like exactly like who's gonna be involved or what uh you know what the arrangement is gonna be, what the name of the bar is gonna be, etc. etc.
+
+[30:49] Because we're we're all in negotiations for these things uh at the moment. I can say this. I'm looking for space. I've looked at several spaces. I haven't found a space yet that I think is um is right.
+
+[31:01] Um as for what's gonna be different or the same, um, you know, what uh what I want to be this uh I think the core of Booker and DAX was uh the bar. The core was that we were gonna work very hard um to make the drinks uh as good as we can make them and present them in a non-pretentious style. We were you know using uh new techniques and trying to focus on uh working on flavor. So it's a very specific uh idea behind uh drink creation, and from a customer service standpoint, we really wanted it to be, like I say, friendly and non-pretentious, and uh, you know, a place that you'd be uh comfortable to go and hang out and ha and have some fun. So that was the goal.
+
+[31:44] I think there, you know we we hopefully I think succeeded on those uh two counts. I think uh in the future I want to uh I'm interested now in the fact of why people go to the bars and and I think it's to feel awesome, right Stas. Like I think you want to look awesome. Uh not necessarily that everything looks awesome but that you feel like you look awesome. You feel like you are awesome.
+
+[32:08] I think that's almost it's not almost it's more important than the drink, right? Like the fact that you feel kind of special or like that you know uh that you just feel good. Like why else would you go to a bar? If you want to feel crappy you go home. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:23] Not that going home makes you feel crappy Stas, I'm not saying that. But uh so I'm gonna focus on those kinds of uh things more in the in the next go-around. Not that we didn't focus on them before but I'm gonna kind of put those prime in prime place. And also I want to make our carbonation system a little better. Uh you know there's a bunch of like tweaks and things uh depending on the people I'm working with new techniques might be available to us that weren't before because I was so I might not be as uh uh vehement about not using some techniques.
+
+[32:52] I don't know. Uh the qu look will will we use garnishes? I don't know. I doubt we'll use a lot of garnishes. We're never gonna be a garbage heavy uh cocktail bar with garnishes but I don't know it's yet to be seen.
+
+[33:03] Uh so it's not that it's a sore subject it's just there's certain things I can't say and I found also that like until you have something concrete to say it's usually you know best not to say much at all, right Stas? That's true. Yeah. Jeff from Los Angeles writes, uh, hey gang, I recently got into brewing. I'm thinking about using a circulator to do a brew in bag all grain setup uh during mash, running the circulator outside the bag and probably with a hop sock.
+
+[33:28] What do you think about that word hopsock? What does that mean? It's like you know, like a like a dance you go to in high school. Uh now you have like at the hop anyway, but like going through my head, but no, it's like it's like a bag to hold the hops so that they they can pull them back out again. Uh around the circulator as insurance in case anything escapes the bag.
+
+[33:44] It looks like ANOVA tacitly approves this based on the two thousand and fifteen interview they did on brewing beer with the ANOVA. Uh but the owner's manuals for each of my circulators, I have a poly science professional and an ANOVA one, state that they shouldn't come into contact with food, in quotes. Uh I also contacted ANOVA customer service and they said no to what was done in the article. So what's the deal? Is this safe to do with either of both my circulators?
+
+[34:08] If so, is there any particular cleaning that you recommend before or after to ensure long life for the circulators and that no off flavors are imparted to the wart. Thanks for your help. Uh FYI, uh you meaning me, Nastasia, yelling at you, Nastasia and Peter during the carbonation uh segment a few weeks ago was some of the most uh best comedy I've heard on the podcast, Jeff from Los Angeles. Also, uh I stand corrected, the blue man episode, which was the not safe for work, was even funnier, so there you go. Uh not a family show.
+
+[34:37] Um so here's the thing. The re there's a bunch of reasons why people don't say things are food grade, and I can tell you this as an equipment designer. One, uh they simply don't want to pay to get it certified as food grade. Uh so for instance the original poly science stainless steel circulators were not didn't have NSF approval, uh even though everything in contact with the food was in fact food grade. Now, there's two issues uh that you come uh across with uh well there's a bunch of issues.
+
+[35:05] A, is it gonna is the food gonna harm the unit? The answer in most of these cases is no. You don't want to clog it, right? So you want to make sure nothing can clog the circular circulator part, but in general, no, the food's not gonna hurt the thing. Uh two, although I forget which one it was, but one of the lower price circulators would not circulate oil.
+
+[35:22] You remember that, Stas? Were you at that with me? You yeah, it was Wisconsin. It was in Wisconsin. We were at doing that demo with Johnny uh and uh Hunter, and we couldn't get the one circulator to go in oil because we were doing that oil water test.
+
+[35:33] Anyway, uh I think that's either the viscosity was a problem or one of the sensors was like this is weird and it didn't didn't sense right, so it wouldn't work, but that was oil. Um so anyway, so there's uh is the food gonna hurt the unit? No. And then there is the unit gonna hurt the food, and this can be in one of a number of ways. One, the material itself could be unsafe for food contact, i.e.
+
+[35:54] poisonous, or what most people worry about is oils uh from bearings or uh plastics leaching out uh nasty stuff into the food, right? So that's the primary concern. In the old circulators, there were no like the the stainless steel uh poly science ones, there were uh there was nothing in contact with the food. The bearings were all up top and it was all just a stainless steel impeller. There was literally nothing but stainless steel in contact.
+
+[36:19] So I'm gonna take that one as the as the base. And also, the newer poly science um ones, they're not rated for food, but the plastic, I believe, is uh food safe. Uh I had this conversation with Philip Preston, but it was years ago. I can't speak about the plastics that are used in the ANOVA, but I will say this in general, most of these designers would only ever specify food grade plastics simply because why wouldn't it costs a little more, but in general they know that people are using it for food contact, and even if it's not, even if they're not gonna go get the ratings for it, they would make it that way anyway, if they're good people, which most of them are. Okay, so back to what we were talking about.
+
+[36:54] And the jewel, I don't know. Did we ask uh Chris Young on the jewel whether or not we'll find out uh because you know he sponsored the show in fact. So we'll find out whether or not that one is uh food grade. Um but the materials in general are food grade, they're in contact with the material with the food. Uh so that's not an issue.
+
+[37:11] Even if it is a food grade material, you have to get special certifications. The factory charges you more for those certifications of food grade. And finally, you have to get NSF approval for it, which is um, you know, uh an actual certification, which also costs tens of thousands of dollars because we're going through it with the centrifuge, getting our NSF approval. Um so there's that, but the the difficulty in getting the NSF approval isn't solely based on the um um materials it's made out of, but also how easy the material to c is to clean. So any uh portion of the unit that can't be disassembled and cleaned uh in a way that uh the people who are certifying it are happy with uh means that it's not gonna get NSF approval.
+
+[37:52] So in fact, even the centrifuge is another example. Certain design parts of the centrifuge are actually not ones that I like. I hate them, but I have to have them there because the factories tell me that I won't be able to get NF certification, for instance, unless certain parts can be broken down and washed separately. So uh a lot of whether or not something is rated for food contact might be whether or not uh the NSF people said that it could be washed out. Now that said, that doesn't mean that you can't wash the stuff even if it's got like crevices, it just means it's more difficult to clean out.
+
+[38:22] So as long as you're willing to take the time to clean it out, I would feel safe serving that stuff to my family. What do you think? Yes. Okay. Um Andrew writes in about pork.
+
+[38:33] Uh I think I think uh yeah, Andrew writes in about pork. Um I wanted to apologize for ripping on Dave the other week for disliking sweet tea. If I had known that he respected Eastern North Carolina barbecue so much, I would never have questioned his like of uh dislike of sweet tea. And for the record, if you get sweet tea in one of those amber colored glasses, it's guaranteed to be too sweet. That's what we were talking about, those now.
+
+[38:53] In fact, I'm staring at some of those amber colored glasses. Thank goodness they did not serve sweet tea in this establishment. Although they do basically they serve their lemonade here as a concentrate and you have to add water to it. What do you think about that concept? Do you like the fact that you get more lemonade for your money?
+
+[39:06] No, no. It's expensive lemonade. Right, because you're supposed to mix it with water. Well, they don't tell you to mix it with water. That's the thing, they don't tell you to mix it with water.
+
+[39:13] So, like a friend of mine was over yesterday and someone was serving him coffee, and uh they have this way they're like they're serving the coffee and it's the coffee is too cold for his taste, and they're like, we want to serve it at that temperature. He's like, I just want my coffee hot. If you're gonna serve coffee at some non-standard temperature, standard temperature for coffee in the United States is piping hot, like crotch scalding, McDonald's sewing hot, right? So if you're gonna serve your coffee at any temperature other than that, you have to be like, the guy's like, but then you had this, you had this happen. Hey, I want a coffee, right?
+
+[39:44] And then you're like, uh, sir, I don't know. Do you sure you want a coffee? Because the coffee was served as like you're kind of like lukewarm. And he's like, Well, what do you mean? He's like, and then you have to go through the whole rigmarole.
+
+[39:53] This is why it's hard to do anything that's outside the norm when you have something that already has like a fundamental, like everyone knows the way it's supposed to be served. There's gonna be some mishigosh, but I don't think you want to have that happen after the person has a cup of coffee that they think is too cold. Yeah. Because the guy that I was doing at dinner, he was like, he's like, I don't care. Where's where's the hot coffee?
+
+[40:12] What can I do to get coffee that's hot? Do you like uh coffee that's not hot? No. You like it hot? Right.
+
+[40:17] Yeah. Back to Andrew's question. Uh as I mentioned, I live in Boston. I'm unable to cook outdoors and have trouble smoking food indoors because of the poor circulation in my apartment. I miss Eastern North Carolina barbecue terribly.
+
+[40:33] I miss going to a pig roast with one of those big oil drum grills and just pulling some meat off of a carcass. What do you think about pulling meat off a carcass though? That sounds terrible. Oh yeah, but that's fun though. Any advice on replicating it here?
+
+[40:44] It probably goes without saying that I can't cook a whole pig in my closet sized kitchen, but I want the spicy, sweet, vinegary, smoky, meaty flavors of Eastern uh barbecue pork. Uh I'm completely open to covering my cooking uh slash uh smoke detector if it could help. But I'm not sure what the best way to do this is without endangering myself or losing my security deposit. I have a baby-sized oven. Ooh, cooking babies.
+
+[41:06] Terrible. Terrible. Uh a circulator, a torch, uh, an EC whip, a crappy coil electric stove, and a toaster oven if those would help at all. Speaking of my circulator, uh, I was given an ANOVA precision cooker circulator. Uh, I want to use it uh with other fluids such as oil and vinegar, but also don't want to ruin this wonderful gift.
+
+[41:23] Uh I know officially, uh I forgot this was even here. I uh shouldn't use anything with water, but I'm wondering if you know enough about this specific circulator to let me know if I'm safe to use other fluids. So I can't remember whether it was the ANOVA or the sandstair that wouldn't pump oil, uh, but it came back to life. So you're not gonna hurt it by doing the oil. It's not gonna hurt the unit.
+
+[41:41] I'm gonna put it that way. Um I'm still catching up on the cooking issues podcast, but I've learned so much for you guys. Um it means a lot to amateur cooks like me that uh someone like yourself is interested in our questions. Keep on being great, Andrew. Ah, very nice.
+
+[41:53] Okay. Um so what would I do? So the here's the thing. So let's just to get over what talk about traditional, like North Carolina style pulled pork. So you're supposed to do in the real world, I mean like old school, what you're supposed to do is chop wood, burn wood down to basically coals, put uh a whole hog on a split uh onto um you know on there and cook it, and I think flipping once, I think, for many, many, many hours at a low temperature, uh b basically uh you know, breaking down uh the collagens, forming a nice uh what they call like uh bark or crust of of uh uh of dryness around the outside.
+
+[42:34] Uh then after many, many hours the inside is moist and tender, the outside you hack it up and you put a mixture of vinegar um and uh cayenne pepper and regular pepper uh you know over it and and you eat it. Okay. So the good news about replicating this at home, and a lot of people get really uh bent out of shape about how to do it, is you basically uh almost any low cooking technique is gonna get you the internal structure, internal taste of the meat to be relatively accurate. So you'll find online many people doing uh um slow cooker recipes or doing Kahlua style where you're wrapping the pork in uh aluminum foil and throwing it in an oven. And what that is doing is allowing you to get the high temperatures without uh drying it out too much.
+
+[43:17] The problem is you're not gonna have um you're not gonna have that crust on the outside. Uh so w people can get around it two ways. Now, if you're gonna do it in a vacuum bag, which you can do, uh, you know, um circulate it, the problem is is you're never gonna get a pulled pork texture doing low temperature. You're always gonna need to do a higher temperature in order for it to break down. So if you even if I cook like let's say short ribs or pork uh or pork belly uh for you know days and days and days, so it's very soft, but I do it at a low temperature, the structure of the meat is never the same.
+
+[43:50] Uh it doesn't render out in the same way. So the structure of the meat is never the same as kind of a traditional pulled pork. So what I would do is get the traditional cut that people do when they when they do a single cut, and that's the Boston butt or the pork shoulder uh section. Um now you you can either you can go wet all the way, but you're never gonna dry out the outside of the meat, and it's never gonna have quite the same thing. So what you can do is you can either you can do uh a pre you know rub it down with salt, you can use a liquid smoke.
+
+[44:17] The good news, I mean I don't, but you could use like a liquid smoke. The good news about uh North Carolina, specifically Eastern North Carolina barbecue, is it's smoke-esque, it's cooked in smoke, but it's not smoke-e. In other words, it doesn't taste overly smoked, so you're not gonna require a a lot of it. It's not like a heavy smoke um uh cookery, even though it's in smoke for a long time. So you could um you could put it in a low, low oven.
+
+[44:42] Uh you know, you look up uh you know uh Meathead Goldwyn's uh recipes on this. You could do a combination of uh wrapping in foil uh and putting in an oven, uh letting it come up, then take the foil off and then let it flash off. Uh I would do some maybe some salt beforehand. Um and that's it. So you could definitely do it, do it inside.
+
+[45:02] Uh, but I would look up I I haven't done that specific one, but do I do it similar to the way they do a clue? What? I can't keep talking about pork or something. One minute. One minute.
+
+[45:10] Oh man. Pedro called in from Lisbon about uh melon melon pan, you know that that kind of thing. And I actually have some let's see if I can get through this. I also had one more question, I guess I'm not gonna get to on uh Jer Jeremy on measuring alcohol. Jeremy, I'll get to you next week on measuring alcohol.
+
+[45:26] Let's see if I can bust through this melon pan question. Good morning, uh Dave, Miss Lopez, David in the booth, and fellow members of the chat room. I'm Pedro from Lisbon, Portugal. And last uh June I visited Tokyo and Kyoto as part of my honeymoon around the world. There we tasted Japanese melon pan, and as since uh, and I want to try it's so good, I want to try making it at home.
+
+[45:44] Uh melon pan, by the way, is like a a bread dough, like a ja tip typical Japanese like semi-sweet bread dough encased in a cookie dough and baked. That's what it is. Okay. You like that idea? Sure.
+
+[45:54] No melon inside. Okay. Okay. You know, you've seen if you saw it, you'd know it. Uh however, I followed the recipe to uh to uh to the tea and already baked them twice with different results.
+
+[46:03] I would like you to explain, if possible, why the difference in the outcome. On both times, the outer layer, so this is the cookie layer, was difficult to work with, uh being very sticky and brittle, and I couldn't make a uniform layer. Does this have to do with the butter quality? Uh as those fellow listeners from the bakery in Seattle had the problem. Does the butt does butter with salt or without salt have any difference?
+
+[46:20] And could that explain the issue? I don't think so. Uh on the first time, uh uh the re the bread dough also contains dry milk powder, by the way. On the first time I didn't use dry milk powder in the bread dough and realized on the second time with the dry milk the dough is lighter and more fluffy. What's the role of dry milk in the bakery?
+
+[46:35] Uh and these are from this uh recipe site called Japanese Cooking 101, uh their Japanese basic bread recipe and their melon pan recipe. Once again, uh thanks for the show, uh Pedro uh Paiva. Okay. P.S. You should visit Lisbon.
+
+[46:47] Yes, I should. I would love to visit Lisbon. I love uh Portuguese wine, I love port, and I also love Portuguese cheese. Uh you did you ever go to Portugal sauce? No, yeah.
+
+[46:55] I want to go to Portugal. I really do. Uh so anyway, uh short answers to your question. Uh your problem with the cookie, I looked at the recipes and let's let's hit the cookie dough first, because in case they rip us off the air. Uh the video that they shot for the cookie dough, I don't know what they were doing in the video because the cookie dough they made looked fine, but the method they used for making it was terrible.
+
+[47:16] They obviously didn't cream the uh butter and the uh sugar enough. You want to c you first of all, take your butter out of the fridge, don't bother warming it up. And according to uh Stella Parks, uh, you know, the uh you know baker who uh writes for serious heats and has her own blog and all this other stuff. In fact, you shouldn't ever let your butter get above uh 68 when you're creaming. I don't know, I haven't run these tests, but she swears on 10 stacks of Bibles if that's the case.
+
+[47:40] But here's what I do. I take the butter out of the fridge, I hit it with a rolling pin, turn it 90 degrees, hit it with a rolling pin a bunch of times, turn it 90 degrees, I go all the way around until it's malleable but still cold. Throw that into your kitchen aid or equivalent, hopefully with a scraper blade on it with a silicone scraper. If not, you have to scrape down a bunch of times. Cream the heck out of that for minutes with the butter and the sugar to whip air into it.
+
+[48:03] That's gonna plasticize your dough. I think the your main problem was that uh it was uh kind of too dense and uh wasn't uniform in structure and so it was brittle. And also when it's when there's not enough air whipped into it, once you chill it, because you had to chill the dough to uh to roll it out, uh, it's going to chill such that the outside's gonna be too hard and the inside's still gonna be too soft. So, in other words, uneven chilling might be an effect, and the the denser your dough is, the less nice it's gonna act when you're rolling it out once it's chilled. So, anyway, so cream the heck out of it.
+
+[48:33] When you add the eggs, scrape down and whip whip those in until they're fluffy before you're adding the flour. And I think uh along with not over-chilling it, chilling it for a longer period of time, but not as hard, like don't freeze or chill it, I think it's gonna make a big difference on it because uh with more air, it's gonna be more plastic, it's gonna work better, it's not gonna be brittle. I don't think it's your butter, I don't think it's a salt. I think it's strictly that if you follow the recipe the way they did it, they just didn't cream uh the uh uh the butter for their cookies properly. As for the milk powder, um the the function can be different milk uh depending on what's going on, whether it's a whole milk powder or not.
+
+[49:08] If it's a whole milk powder, it has fat in it, uh, and the fat is gonna tenderize. But in general, uh, as long as the enzymes have been deactivated in milk, which it usually is. I also don't know whether Japanese bread baking people 101 are using UHT milk, uh, which has been completely deactivated from enzymes, which can uh reduce gluten, uh, or whether or not they scald the milk beforehand. Uh, they call for lukewarm milk, but the milk powder in general, uh, you get a browner uh version because of the sugars. There's uh you're adding extra lactose.
+
+[49:35] Uh typically you get a fluffier and softer product when you add uh milk powder. Um the actual mechanism I'm not sure of. Anyway, so I hope that helps. Uh, and we'll get to the other questions next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[50:02] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[50:28] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know whenever's to like about one o'clock. Broadcasting from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwig. Call in all your questions to 718-497-2128. It's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:53] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah. Got uh Dave in the booth.
+
+[0:59] Yo. And we have Paul Adams, formerly of Popular Science. Hello. No longer at Popular Science. No longer.
+
+[1:08] So is it the science is the science is not popular or science is still popular. I am, however, unpopular. So, up until very recently, Paul was the editor of uh Popular Science's web content in general. Uh, but he most especially was their drone editor and their food editor. Yep.
+
+[1:32] Yeah. Not drones and food. Although I was discussing yesterday, uh Nomad, the restaurant Nomad, might be the first. I mean, I haven't spoken to them about this, but it makes sense that they would be the first, like, drone operated pepper grinder. What do you think?
+
+[1:47] Why does that make sense? Because like they're always at the cutting edge of that kind of thing, and like, you know, you want like pepper to just kind of appear. You don't necessarily want a waiter with the giant pepper grinder. Pepper. Drones kick up a big downdraft.
+
+[2:01] Well, that's something that has to be worked on. I guess. What about an overhead pepper gantry, like an XY pepper gantry? And like an X XY truffle shaving gantry and an XY, like fresh Parmigiano gantry. What do you think?
+
+[2:17] Dial in the coordinates of the plate. Yeah, and just hit that. We love that. Wouldn't you love that? Yeah.
+
+[2:22] I think drones are optimal for slicing meat. The fast rotors. Well, uh, you know that the people have worked on the butcher robot, but the butcher robot is actually one of the most difficult robot problems that exists. Because in fact, the we are one of the interesting things if you read um mechanization takes command by uh what's his name? Siegfried Gideon, which is kind of the classic uh work on um the rise of mechanization.
+
+[2:50] Like one of the interesting things about uh assembly lines is they were all like first really applied to food preparation problems like baking, but also uh things like butchering pigs. But the problem is is that unlike things like guns and cars, they can't be fully fully automated because pigs themselves aren't widgets. You know what I mean? Well, we've tried to widget the pig as much as we can and and the chicken and whatnot, but still requires some human intervention because there's like a lot of stuff. So people have been working on the uh the butcher robot, something they can actually robotically take a non widget and break it down.
+
+[3:28] So it's a it's a tough problem. There's a ways to go. Yeah. But I think like hanging a prosciutto above the table and manually flying a drone into it, so shreds of it go everywhere. That's pretty pretty hardcore.
+
+[3:39] Pretty hardcore drone. No. What do you mean? Like prosciutto is tough, and you want you don't want like it hacked to bits. You don't want pulled pork.
+
+[3:48] I can see you doing pulled pork. Like you throw a pork shoulder up in the air and fly a drone through it. You might jam the rotor into the pork though. And not into a prosciutto? No, because it's more stiff.
+
+[3:59] You could really just kind of have a grating effect. Stas, would you would you burn a restaurant down that attempted to do that with prosciutto? Would you just walk up to the restaurant and just like light your drink on fire and throw it in? Uh yes. Yeah, probably.
+
+[4:15] Speaking of drinks, uh yesterday uh I had my first uh of the four Mondays I'm gonna work at uh Oto slinging drinks, and Nastasia hated the drink that uh I made for her. Uh so I will say a little about it. Yeah. Uh sounds great. I I liked it a lot.
+
+[4:31] I think other people liked it a lot. You know the uh Amaro Chicharo? Yes. It's like you know, the central of Italy thing. So it turns out that if you uh add water to it, uh, and then uh the problem with the straight carbonating like Amaro spritzers is that they tend to lose body as they're diluted down.
+
+[4:48] Like the whole point of a carbonated Amaro spritz thing is to have kind of a low alcohol drink, right? So you're not clocking in at like 13%, 13, 14%, you're clocking in closer, like nine, ten percent, eight, eight, nine, ten percent. Yeah. So when you're down there, in fact, this is exactly yeah, it's right around there. So like the the problem is is that you start losing body, like viscosity.
+
+[5:12] Now, you don't want to dope that up by adding sugar because the whole point isn't to be pounding a sweet soda, it's to be pounding something kind of refreshing and bitter and whatnot. Right. The answer is, of course, you add glycerin. So that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, yes, you add glycerin, of course.
+
+[5:25] The answer is the answer is always glycerin. So you add it doesn't take a lot, by the way. So like, you know, like a whole liter bottle of uh of product can you know would have like 15 uh mils or so of uh glycerin or or less. It's much actually it's it's less, it's way less than a percent. I put in like l way less than a percent.
+
+[5:42] So maybe it was 15 per bottle of chicharro. Anyway, so it's like not a lot. Uh but it makes a noticeable difference. Salt, right? And then uh carbonated it, and then uh I served it with a squeeze with a lime wedge that you could squeeze in, and it tastes remarkably like a Coca-Cola, strangely, even though the acid's not there, but that the overnotes of it.
+
+[6:03] So uh so we called it Roman Coke. Get it? Get it? Get it. But it sounds tasty, dude.
+
+[6:09] Uh it's good. Uh the but for the first time in my life ever, I served a carbonated drink over ice. Kind of like Spanish style. So I put the ice into a Collins glass, stirred the Collins glass down, dumped out the extra water, poured in the drink, and Stassi's like, I don't like it. And I just realized Nastasia hates ice in in her carbonated drinks.
+
+[6:28] That's why she didn't like the drink. If I had just poured her the freaking drink in uh in a wine glass, she would have enjoyed it. And you know what? Like, crap on me for not remembering what Nastasia likes after all these freaking years. I was so caught up in like the fact that I was doing something I hadn't done before that I stopped thinking about what Nastasia liked.
+
+[6:50] Like, so like whenever, like and it's so crap on me. My fault. My bad. Last night I was blaming her. I was calling her a bad person.
+
+[6:58] True in front of people. Which is also true. But in this case, it's like it was totally, totally my fault. A lot of people don't like rocks. Yeah.
+
+[7:08] Yeah, well, they shouldn't order a drink on the rock then. I mean, if it says on the rock. I didn't even see it. No, no, but no, why would Nastasi think I'm gonna serve a carbonated drink on ice when I've never done it in my life? So uh, but on the other hand, like what's pathetic about it is is that well, you know why it is is because I remember very unusual things that come up a lot.
+
+[7:29] Like, so for instance, Cesare, Casella, friend, chef, salumi maker extraordinaire, uh, only enjoys sparkling wine. Really, he'll drink anything you hand him, but really what he wants is is sparkling wine. Uh, and he wants that with ice in it. Sure. That's what he wants.
+
+[7:46] So I get it for him. Cause I don't want him to have to walk up and deal with some bartender person who's like, you want what? So I I always as soon as I see him, if I'm working, but I just get it for him. That way there's no sort of any sort of interaction, right? Because you don't want to have to have that interaction.
+
+[8:02] But I feel, and I think I've said this on the show before, I think Cesare has earned the right, really anyone has earned the right to have a drink exactly the way that they want it. As long as you know what you're getting into. Yes. Within reason. Like within reason.
+
+[8:18] Like, you know, if someone wants to do something that's literally vile and revolting, you know, at a public place, well, they they shouldn't do that. Huh. You know, you like your ability to have your drink the way you want, like, stops when I wretch. You know what I mean? And certain things hurt me, but if I'm not a customer, it's not a problem.
+
+[8:39] You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't hurt you if you see someone having ice in their in their champagne, does it? Doesn't hurt me. It hurt you, Stars? What?
+
+[8:47] To see someone do something horrible to a you don't care, right? They're they're drinking it. Yeah. Oh, I mean, it's still What do you think about like when someone takes like uh a fine wine and dumps like Pepsi Cola into it? Like with that, would you be like, would you just get up and walk out?
+
+[9:02] It hurts me when people drink a fine wine quickly. Does it hurt you when I eat good food intensely quickly? Yeah. Jiro dreams of of fast, fast food. That's basically fast.
+
+[9:18] It was fast casual restaurant. Jiro's fast casual. Uh so the uh I mean I was dressed casually. Yeah. We were Mark had to be dressed casually because he was still on the he was still yeah, he he he was uh his behind was still set on spray from his uh trip that he had taken right beforehand, so you know fast casual.
+
+[9:38] Those yeah, those formal looking. You said they let us sit at that table forever to eat the cantaloupe? Was that what it was? Uh whatever it was, yeah. But you know, like men's men's formal pants, do you know they have a second button on the inside that you can't see?
+
+[9:52] Did you know that? Yeah. So like formal men's pants like have a little button over on the left side, like right where the thigh is, and I don't know why it's there, to be to be honest. I don't know why why they have that. To even out the tension, I guess, from the button that's on the right side up above.
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+[10:08] I don't know. So anyway, so you can't wear that kind of pants if what you need to do is rip those suckers down because you're set on spray. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's a short situation.
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+[10:17] I'm anti shorts. I detest shorts, but in that kind of situation, or some sort of baggy thing. You had a lot of people there last night. I did. You were in your funeral suit.
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+[10:27] Oh, yeah, so well, I was uh bartending in a three-piece suit, and everyone's like, Oh, you look so nice. I'm like, Well, I was at a funeral, and they're like, Oh my god, I'm sorry, now I feel bad for saying anything about it. Which is kind of the best. Uh well, and from Nastasias, you know, there's uh Peter Kim who couldn't be here today because he's uh tool uh from the museum food and drink it wasn't his funeral right yeah yeah no no not yet but the uh I saw him last night and yeah his voice was very froggy yes yeah froggy as in uh little rascals froggy remember little rascals froggy um I forget what I was gonna say about Peter but he was something something about what were we talking about it'll come to us anyway funerals funerals so uh but Peter wasn't involved with so you never did the the cherry thing that you were gonna do with the three generations you missed out oh my god that's totally right well let me describe what happened that cherry probably still exists I got a text Gerard he can't eat that cherry now we're gonna just so my stepfather's father uh like uh died uh on Friday he's 96 96 years old it's a good run uh kind of an amazing guy up until uh he was sick for about two weeks maybe uh so you know prior to that 96 years old born in 1920 ate like a horse lived in his own house uh you know loved loved life a hundred percent of the time loved life uh was the last in a long line of butchers so like for generations basically there was an alternation in names it was he was Archangelo Arcangelo Carmen Adonisio and then it went back then his father was Carmine his father was Archangelo the next father up can you guess uh Carmine. And they and they're all butchers from like these tiny towns uh you know in uh Avellino area in uh in Italy.
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+[12:25] And they came over uh the you know the grandfather the the grand you know my what would be my great grandfather uh Carmine whose name went by Nanu that was his name Nanu that was the name that they called him to his face. Everyone also had nicknames that they were called not to the behind their back. Everyone, everyone in the family has it, like and they're all mean, like horse's head, three curls, like all sorts of some of them? Uh no, no, too too young, uh not worth not worth an epithet. So they uh I wasn't part of the politics so much, you know.
+
+[12:56] I'm sure but I'm sure I did, but because they never told me to my face. You know what? I should ask someone, like what was what was I called? You know what I mean? If if indeed I deserved a name.
+
+[13:04] So um came over in 1908, saved up, bought a uh a butcher, uh, you know, a shop, had his own shop in the uh in the north end of Boston in the 20s called Adenizio Brothers, because he was and they would go, and so Gerard's father, you know, the the you know, um Addy, uh Arcangelo, Papa, who just died, he was the last in the generation that was running this kind of old style of butcher shop where they would drive a truck up, canvas-colored truck, pick up live lambs in from farms in New Hampshire, come down to Boston, slaughter them, and then hang them up in the shop in the old days. So there's a picture from the 30s, uh, which I, you know, if I get a good copy, I'll put it on on Instagram, of like sheep with the fur on hanging in the shop in Boston with a live sheep in the back that they were like, you know, not really talking about. Nice Gerard, my stepfather remembers like him bringing live goats in and the goats like smashing uh, you know, one goat butted him. Uh and so they had live, live all this live, live put they're doing their own slaughtering, they would slaughter their own cows, although I don't think they would go by necessarily their own cows. So they were like real old school uh butchers in the north end of Boston and just crazy, insane stories about getting ripped off, like preventing getting ripped, getting back even at people that had ripped you off, like these guys would rip them off on the price of live lambs.
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+[14:24] So they would drive the truck in, and then they would put uh they they would have canvas in the back of their truck too. They would put all these rocks in like a hold in the truck that couldn't be seen. Then they would weigh the truck, then as the lambs were coming off, they would like dump the rocks onto the back onto the ground, and then when they weighed it, they would have the difference in that because this farmer had ripped them off for something else on like a land that they had sold them before. There's all sorts of crazy there's such crazy stories. I don't even know if I should get into some of the crazy stories.
+
+[14:53] Like one of the crazy stories they would tell is that you know they no one wanted to lose any money, like everything, everything was, you know, down to the T. You bought a live animal and you sold every scrap. So like with with cows, they would take the skins uh over and sell them to a t a tanner who would make leather. But with uh they they sold a lot of meat to uh actually the Chinese community and the uh Jewish community in uh in Boston. And so they'd hire a rabbi to come and do the uh the koshering thing, right?
+
+[15:25] So one of the things he would tell me is that, and this is gonna horrify people, so prepare to be horrified. So, like what would happen is is they would like they had to pay the rabbi to do the certification on the animal, one way or the other. So, in other words, like animal passes, animal doesn't pass, rabbi still gets paid, right? And this is good from a rabbi point of view because you don't want the rabbi to think that it's like you know, uh that their paycheck is dependent upon how many animals they pass, right? So one of the things they used to uh search for inside the cavity was that the that I guess that the lung, the pleura was not attached, right?
+
+[15:59] Or something like this. So they used to know this, so they would make a small incision in the upper part that wasn't where uh they were checking, and they would stick their fingers in and just verify that that and separate out the pleural lining from the thing so that it was all kosher. They would they would kosher the animal. So it's like not cool, right? But in the in the same way, I kind of I don't respect I would never do it, but it's kind of an interesting story, right?
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+[16:26] The other thing is is that Gerard's grandfather, so the great grandfather, in the in the twenties, uh twenties or thirties, made a bunch of brandied cherries. And I had one when I was a kid. They were still good in the in the like eighties, which is when I had one, and there's still I think three left. And now I have the regret. I was I wanted to have you waited so long, you made a thing.
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+[16:49] I wanted three generations of Adenesios to get together and and have the last three cherries, and now it's too late. We'll have to wait for another generation to have three generations for the last three cherries. Maybe we'll wait for the cherries to be uh a hundred years old. I'll not sure whether he still has the cherries. Anyway, um you got a caller online if you want to take that.
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+[17:10] Yeah, call her, you're on the air. Hi, this is Jeff from Las Vegas. Thanks for taking my call. Hey, how are you doing? I'm great.
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+[17:18] I I have a question about canning. Uh I'd like to do some canning for the holidays for friends and family, and uh I was looking at some some recipes to do that, and they were really pretty simple recipes, things like strawberry sugar, lemon juice. But they say that you can't double the recipe. And so I've been having a hard time figuring out when can I double these recipes or not double the recipes, and I was wondering if you had an answer. Huh.
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+[17:45] Well, so do you have the recipe in front of you? I I don't. I unfortunately I don't have the recipe in front of me, but does it involve boiling? Yes. So it's it's uh water bath canning and uh you know, straight up breakdown, say like the strawberries, add sugar, add lemon juice, cook down and then and then process through water bath canning.
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+[18:10] Right, but in other words, um there there's two things that are gonna go there's two things that can go wrong with recipes that say you can't uh double well, three, I guess. There could be actually something that is like changes when volumes get scaled up and scaled down. But usually what happens is uh in a a recipe that says, for instance, boil for five minutes, you're gonna evaporate a different amount of liquid out of that recipe in five minutes than you would if you were doubling or tripling the batch, right? So one place a recipe can go wrong is at that stage where you're doing the initial boil with the sugar and the acid and the strawberries. In that case, you know, I think uh obviously with a larger batch, you're gonna need to boil uh for the same surface area of pot, you're gonna need to boil a little bit longer because what you're worried about there, and this is not a safety issue, like what you're worried about there is that the texture of the product is going to be right.
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+[19:05] So I typically don't ever listen to what a recipe says in terms of minutes anyway, on a boil for something like a jelly or preserve. I always just pull some out and test it and take a look at it and see whether it feels right. Um better recipe. The problem is also you're not typically boiling those kinds of things until they're at a very high temperature because you're not relying on the sugar to s you're only relying on the high solids to help set the pectin. And it's the pectin that's doing the setting, right?
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+[19:33] So it's hard to test uh from a temperature standpoint, usually. So uh that's one reason why people can say that recipes can't double, but you can kind of get a feeling, and I always just if you boil longer, like unless you boil a long time, in which case you're gonna hydrolyze the pectin because of the extra acid that's in there, uh, you know, boil like having it simmer for a little bit longer to evaporate off more water is not gonna really hurt you. It's probably gonna give you a little bit of a harder set, the same way that if you're doing like a cranberry sauce and you and you don't, you know, boil it long enough, you don't get rid of some of that water, then uh you know, you get a looser set on your cranberry than if you evaporate more water off, or use a wider pan, is another thing. Now the second thing is more of a, and by the way, let's be honest, like jams mold, it's gonna be mold. It's not gonna be something that kills you.
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+[20:22] It's gonna be that you didn't pasteurize and get rid of all of the mold. So there's no reason not to, as far as I can tell, and please someone in the chat room chime chime in here if I'm wrong, but there's no reason not to double treble quin quingip a lot, whatever you're gonna do to it, uh a recipe, uh, as long as the individual containers in which you can are uh all the same size, they should react the same way as long as the vessel you're canning in, so if you have a pressure canner, can uh actually bring all of that product up to the right um temperature, right? So as long as you as long as your stove top has enough thermal output to get a larger canner up to canning temperatures, right? Then everything should be uh okay-dokey, as long as the size of the cans themselves. Now, if all of a sudden you're gonna be like, well, I have a jar the size of a number 10 can, well then you know, that's gonna take a long time to heat up in the middle, and that's not that's not so so good.
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+[21:21] Um but you're dealing with what I like to call a non-deadly product, right? Strawberry with sugar and and and lemon juice is not going to be deadly. It at worst will you know, you won't kill all the yeast and you'll get some sort of nasty, yeasty, moldy thing in it. Um but uh, you know, your chances of death are very low. Well, because of that.
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+[21:45] I mean, our chances are 100%, right? But like you know what I mean, but uh in terms of that, I think you're okay. So it should be more of a textural thing then because you're just not getting the evaporation in the larger quantity. That's my guess. What do you think, Paul?
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+[22:00] Yeah, I agree. I'd say it's not just texture, but the more water you cook off, the better your preserving will be if you have Yeah, I mean, sometimes though, like preserves can be too hard. I mean, like, you know, it depends on the kind of level of of uh of pectin. And then also the other problem is like sometimes you don't want I mean a lot also like the tech like the more the strawberry breaks down, but you need the strawberry to break down or you won't release the pectin. I mean, there's no wind there, right?
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+[22:28] I mean it's like you just don't want to can uh super unreduced jam because it will not keep it a lot of water out there. And nobody, yeah, nobody wants also nobody wants a really watery jam. And Stasi, what happens when someone hands you a jam and it's so watery that it like rolls off the side of your toast? It's the worst, right? You're like, well, who's this person?
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+[22:49] Why'd they make the jam? Why didn't they just go buy smokers? Smuckers doesn't run off my toast. Is that what you say yourself? But if you're gonna make a small batch, you can make a batch and see how your strawberries work.
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+[22:58] Because you could always add pectin if you need to. You know? Um you can even cheat. You can even cheat. Even though you're not supposed to reset, you can always just dump more pet, reboil it and do it, but I mean, not not ideal, or add more sugar.
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+[23:12] Sure. Um is this helping or no? I think so, yeah. It's the best explanation I've gotten so far. So and it gives me a good place to start.
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+[23:23] All right, cool. Hey, uh Dave, is anyone in the chat room chiming in on uh on jams and doubling? Let me check and get back to you. All right, we'll check and get back. At the top of the call, Dave, you said there are three times when you can't scale.
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+[23:35] Will you get a little bit of a little bit of a third one? Well, the third one is that there might actually be some reaction, right? So, like if you you know, if you're like uh trebling the amount of uh baking soda in a in a Maillard reaction thing, it might not scale right because you know you you're probably added a little more than you needed that first time around, but doing that three times in a row might not scale out right. You might not break down the extra, there might be more residual. I mean, I don't know.
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+[24:03] I'm just there might there is there's a possibility. I haven't run into a lot of things that don't scale, but the another thing that's interesting, like in cocktail batching, um the uh the other problem is is that when you're scaling, you're usually saving a product longer than you would otherwise. And so when that happens, uh things can change, and so sometimes people think it's the scaling that went wrong. Well, no, it's the whole time that went wrong. You know what I mean?
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+[24:26] So there's there's uh whenever you're messing with a recipe, it's just you have to analyze, well, what is different now from when the first time that person made this recipe, right? So is it is it the fact that you're using different equipment when you scale it up? Probably. Is it that you're using it in a different way, i.e. for a different length of time, maybe.
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+[24:47] Uh, you know, and those are the main things. It's like what pro what actual process variables are changing when I'm scaling it up or down. Typically, most molecules don't know how large their environment is beyond a very small scale. And so uh you know, they can't know uh what's going on. Um yeah Chad Room's also saying scaling up without scaling the pan size will change the water loss.
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+[25:11] Yeah. And I think that's pretty clearly what's going on. But I don't know why recipe people aren't clear on that. See this is the problem. If you're ever in a position where you're gonna write a recipe right your editors will will will beg you to make it as simple and stupid as possible and I think in a way that they're right there's a whole bunch of people out there in Amazon review land who don't want any actual information.
+
+[25:34] But then I feel like that's not us, right? The people that are listening to this show or or or or me, like we would just prefer to be told quickly, right, like this is why this is like this. Like you could do it in the introduction to the book. You can do it uh you know short thing at each individual recipe um you know C section on scaling recipes, right? Just a little friends, C section on scaling recipes.
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+[26:00] But no one ever does this. And so then they're like they they they you know they propagate these um they propagate these weird like myths and and especially people who are technically minded if someone says something specifically like you may not double this recipe right it's more like, well, why? You know what I mean? And then if they don't write the the the you know the section to go with it, this is why, you know. And then you put a big thing at the top of it that says you make if you're not gonna ever think about recipes, ignore this section.
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+[26:30] Yes. But if you are not an enemy of quality, read this section. You know what I mean? Nastassi and I think Yep, go ahead. I'm sorry, I guess the last part of the question for me then would be is there any particular instance you can think of where it would be dangerous to try and and and double?
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+[26:48] Like I understand what you're saying about the evaporation and and surface area and whatnot, but is there anything I should be looking for particular types of ingredients or something where I'm actually creating a dangerous situation by kind of doubling or something beyond what the recipe calls for? Well, the only time you're gonna get dangerous situations, I'll give you an example. Like let's say you were to uh take a uh cube of mushrooms that is like five feet on a side and pack it solid, and then all you're going to do is uh pasteurize those mushrooms. So you're not gonna kill the botulism in it, you're not gonna wipe out the spores. So you uh heat that very you know slowly over time, and it's a five foot block, it's gonna take a long time for those mushrooms in the center to get up.
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+[27:39] You have a very good chance of uh developing uh some uh botulism toxin on the inside of that five foot block of mushrooms that you're cooking uh at a low temperature, uh, because you've made the recipe too big and you can't heat it adequately, and the recipe, if if the recipe then said, okay, well, I'm gonna take those mushrooms up to uh, you know, boiling point and hold them there for a day, you would actually wipe out the botulism toxin, so that wouldn't be a problem. You still wouldn't wipe out the spores necessarily, right? But it would probably be safe to eat at that point. But just taking it, whereas taking mushrooms in a thin pack, bringing them up to pasteurization temperature or whatever you want and dropping them down is 100% safe in that situation, as long as you're not trying to hold them that you you know, as long as you realize you haven't wiped out the botulism, you like you know, it they're safe to eat at that point, right? Not to keep forever.
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+[28:28] So, you know, that's a situation, or like for instance, when people cook uh too many uh pieces of meat together in a bath and they get bag bloat because they have local bacteria growth because the product doesn't heat up fast enough because they've overloaded their equipment, right? That's where the thing, that's where it usually starts getting unsafe. It starts getting unsafe when there's equipment overload um uh and so that you're not adequately heating in the times or with the profiles that the recipe uh, you know, the recipe asks for. Most of the time, that's that is also still just a quality issue, but sometimes that can be um a safety issue. I'll give you another one.
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+[29:06] Let's say you're using um, you know, a curing salt or or something like this. If you scale up your recipe to the point where you can no longer efficiently coat all the pieces of meat with your uh with your salt if you're doing a dry uh salting, well now you've got a problem. You know what I mean? Or if you increase uh, or let's say you're making uh a sausage and you have to do your primary bind, but all of a sudden, you know, you've been making recipes in a kitchen aid, uh, you know, uh, and now you have to scale it up and you're doing it in trash bac uh trash cans, you know, like 50 gallon trash cans, and you no longer can move the the uh the product around it. Well, now you might get big chunks of meat at the bottom of that thing that ha don't have adequate salt, don't have adequate whatever.
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+[29:48] So it's like when I'm scaling up, usually I'm asking myself, am I introducing a problem based on the and scaling down too goes the same way? Like there's some minimum amount of water you can evaluate. So like scaling down is actually to me the hardest. Like especially with sauces, trying to make a very small amount of something is almost impossible because you know you heat up your your pan, and by the time you get around to adding the next ingredient, the other thing has turned to like caramel burnt caramel at the bottom of your pan. So it's like to me, scaling down is a is a bigger problem, but you're always thinking about um how the shift is changing what's going on with the product.
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+[30:24] And I think if you as long as you're thinking that way, you'll be okay. Well, thank you very much for your time. All right, thank you. Um do you want to do the announcement or some questions? Announcement, because announcement.
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+[30:38] Okay. So uh so here it is. So uh Nastasi and I uh are planning on uh hopefully on Black Friday, because we just can't stand not ruining Thanksgiving for ourselves, right? It's just like we can't stand it. Like anytime that Nastasi and I have what might be a decent Thanksgiving, we're like, you know what?
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+[30:58] Uh let's ruin that. You know what I mean? One way or the other. Like, you know, maybe Nastassi will have a fight with her family, or maybe like she'll you'll serve Thanksgiving at 7 p.m. Yeah.
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+[31:10] Which, by the way, is fine. And then like the, you know, it's like, you know, whatever, I'm gonna get into this later. So the uh so here's the thing. So uh we are planning on, so in other words, get ready for uh a uh Booker and Dax Centerfuge pre-sale to happen uh on uh the Black Friday. Now, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[31:33] And the reason why is that we uh we are almost uh done approving uh the tooling. So uh we we need to pay for the tooling. It turns out that you need money to pay for the tooling and a bunch of other things. But we are going to we have the prototype that is uh fundamentally a production a production prototype, pre-production prototype from the factory. So we're gonna show you a video of that.
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+[32:02] It does um 500 milliliters uh at a time. It's a little bit bigger than a Cuisinart food processor. Uh it also has the ability to do uh continuous um centrifugation. So we'll have a video out about that. And I have tested all of the relevant uh all the some of the relevant recipes, so I can talk about that um a little bit uh in advance.
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+[32:24] But for chefs, it's gonna be really great for herb oils, it's fantastic for herbal oils, it can do it in large quantities. For uh bar, obviously, you have uh you know all kinds of citrus juices like strawberry juice, um, it can do Hustinos. Um it's uh I mean it's it's it's gonna be a lot cheaper. We're we're the retail price we think, we think, we think, don't hold us to this. We think the retail price is gonna be 799.99.
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+[32:52] But then we want the pre-sale price, don't hold us to it. $699.99. Yeah, so and what we're gonna do is is we're gonna have a um because because we're we're gonna do a pre-sale, probably not a Kickstarter. I won't want to say who we're gonna partner with, but you know who they are and you probably like them. Uh but the uh because Nastasia and I are going to talk to them, in fact, like later this week to iron it all out.
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+[33:17] So hopefully more news next week. But the um what we're gonna do is is is that unless we have a certain amount of interest, we're just not gonna do it at all. So we're doing we're basically saying you you sign up for the pre-sale if we get our go number um you know of sales of pre-sales and we need to sell quite a few like I forget what it is for our go number but it's not a small number because it's expensive really expensive to make one of these things um then uh then you're charged your pre-sale and then we hope to deliver uh sometime in like June next year in that in that area but more details to come as the Black Friday approaches and good news it will work in Europe with a transformer you like that so it it you it will work on 50 or 60 cycles but it is a 120 machine but all you need is the transformer and we'll figure out which one you need to buy so I don't want to hear it's not like the Sears all where it's a free and international nightmare it's gonna be much easier to work with. Is there anything else I should mention about that stuff? No that would be did you say that it's only gonna run at that price for a certain amount of time yeah until we make the number we need to go and then you'll never be able to get it at that discount price again.
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+[34:30] Never again no and also to revive something else on the on the uh booker index oh it's not more of a cooking issue stitches Nastasia started work again on the enemy of quality shirts yes look for them at the end of the month now you have uh first of the month going through my head you know that song yeah that's all right Paul sing it I will not sing first of the month I cannot get a is it a Broadway it is no it's uh no. It's the first of the month. Uh okay, let's get some questions. Uh do you want to take another call or yes, call her, call her. Caller, you're on the air.
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+[35:07] Hey y'all. How you doing? Um here's my question. I'm doing great. Thank you.
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+[35:11] How are you guys doing? All right. Uh after Thanksgiving, I've got to do some huge format cooking. And uh I would prefer not to have to buy a gigantic pot. And by gigantic I mean like four or five feet across.
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+[35:28] Ooh. Um I'm wondering if I was to just buy three six gauge sheet of steel from metal shop, is there anything I have to do to it before I could let food going contact with it for cooking? And but the same question kind of goes for like rebar and stuff like that. Is there anything I could do to it? Well possible even.
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+[35:51] What why does the rebar need to touch the food? Well, I I asked that partly because I don't really have a menu in place yet. I was gonna kind of figure out what my cooking tools are gonna be first and then build a menu around that. So really it's like either or is one better is one easier to prep for food. Got it.
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+[36:13] Well, you can get used uh food grade um barrels, right? And the problem is most of them are coated with uh with paints. You can burn them off. I don't know of cheap source of like you might be easier just to get like a giant cheap used pot somewhere. But the answer is is that cold roll steel is fine.
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+[36:34] You have to rub it, scrub it, and then um you're gonna have to probably season it or it'll or it'll uh rust out. You can season it with uh uh if you get spray grease like like Pam and a weed torch, then you can um you can season uh anything you want. It just takes time to season the stuff out. Rebar, I haven't studied rebar in a long time. Rebar is often coated with stuff, um you know, to have it bond better with the concrete.
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+[37:04] So you're definitely not gonna want to use the green rebar. Uh, but I don't I don't know whether or not regular rebar, uh by the way, for those of you that rebar is the is that is the um this the steel pieces that are meant to reinforce concrete and they have that weird kind of pattern on it. And rebar has the this one advantage. It is so cheap. Rebar is so cheap.
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+[37:26] Uh and you can weld to rebar, but I just don't know whether anything's in it um, you know, that is gonna cause you problem. Cold roll steel, fine. Um so really quickly, so you think if I bought a food grade like 50 gallon drum barrel that I could have somebody just cut that thing in half and use it like a pot? Oh yes. Yes.
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+[37:48] I mean uh where would I get one of those in New York City? I mean, I'd have to look like there they're these are expensive, but people sell them stainless, but you can get them used. Like I don't know I've never I haven't bought like I used to I mean back when I was younger, I used to just get ones and just burn them out. But like that was it's disgusting. Have you ever burnt out a fifty fifty-five gallon drum before?
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+[38:16] No. It's disgusting. It's like really bad. And like the paint fumes were just going and going and going. So we like we were doing grills.
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+[38:27] We were doing the old 55 gallon drum grills, and so we just uh torch cut in half, and that was a paint, that was a paint nightmare to begin with, just burning the paint off when it was torch cutting, because we were we didn't have a plasma. We were using old school like oxyacetling. No one had plasmas back then. And uh I mean some of them did, I didn't. And then we just put them up on uh on cinder blocks and just filled them full of stuff and just burnt them for hours and hours and hours.
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+[38:50] Nasty, nasty. And we were in our grates for it, we were just using like uh that expanded mesh stuff. Actually, stuff works okay. Uh I have no regrets on that. But um, like that's the kind of place if you're gonna do something like that that you put rebar underneath it to like support the grate, and that's where you want to worry about um worry about that.
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+[39:12] But uh, I don't I'm pretty sure that those drums will still hold water once they're cut open. Um you want to do it the long way? I mean, that's what I would do if I got one just because it would hold, give me a little bit more oxygen. I don't know how the top seals work on mean the there's some that that have removable tops on them, and those things have elastomer seals, so I would stay away from those, but the old the like those ones that are actually just crimped shut, those things should work. And at the very least, if if you're boiling, you could just put some uh silicone sealing on the inside of that thing, and they'll stay they'll stay good to go, especially if you don't need to use it forever.
+
+[39:49] You know what I mean? Yeah, um and in fact, I want to say that I saw someone doing nictemalization and cutting half 55 gallon drums. I think I saw someone doing like like large-scale nixamol, underfired horizontal, half-cut 55-gallon drums. Gotcha. Yeah, and you know what you know what the good thing about boiling in a in a in in that shape is a lot like a wok, uh, you get uh reduced surface area as it goes down.
+
+[40:15] So b because you get reduced surface area as it goes down, it's easier to kind of control kind of what's going on. So if you're if you're flat all the way down, then uh you know, once you get low, you can go from like I'm okay to I'm hosed, really quickly because it doesn't kind of taper down. Uh and also for expansion, uh you know, you have more expansion space if you're boiling in something that uh is has sloped uh sides because the higher up you go the more volume you get per unit height, and so it kind of is a help on uh it helps for self-boilover problems. And the insides of those things are relatively easy to clean out. The the the line of gunk around the rims is a little can be a little bit tricky to clean out, but the actual slope part of it is relatively uh easy to um clean out.
+
+[41:05] But you're gonna want to weld probably something like uh like angle or something on the cut edges for two reasons. One to provide stiffness to something that's no longer supported around itself, and two, so no one cuts themselves on the on the cut edges. Do you have a plasma cutter? Gotcha. So just really quickly, like I have no idea where to start.
+
+[41:27] Where would I find one of those? I mean, am I gonna find it like at Jetro or like restaurant depot, or am I gonna find it at a pickle shop? I mean I've gone on well, pickle shops tend to use uh um HDP or uh uh you know um I think they use those plastic ones, which aren't gonna be good for you. Um I once looked on Craigslist for this time, and like on Craigslist, people have this problem where they have like boatloads of these suckers like sitting around or eBay uh or one of the before I go to McMaster and pay full price. There's tons of people around who and if food was shipped in it, you know it's food grade.
+
+[42:01] You know what I mean? It's like you don't want to buy one that someone was shipping hazardous waste in. Yeah, you know. Um yeah, but I would check, check Craig's list. I I looked on there once because I thought the museum was gonna need a bunch of these things.
+
+[42:13] We didn't end up buying them, but um and did anyone in the chat room have any suggestions? I mean, New York is such a pain in the butt to do anything in. I mean, I love it here, but it's a pain in the butt to do physically do or make anything. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:28] Anyway. Thank you very much. All right, good luck. Let us know whether you found anything. All right, have a good one.
+
+[42:34] All right. Um let me see. We should get to the ones we had uh before, right? Jeremy wrote in, hey cooking issues, thanks for all your work uh researching and teaching methods to make food. Uh delicious food.
+
+[42:43] I just I took out the delicious because, you know, if you haven't had my food, how do you know whether it's delicious or not? And by the way, speaking of delicious, next week I'm teaching a class uh at the International Colony Center on cocktails. Your time is running out to sign up. Running out. Uh we're doing liquid intelligence.
+
+[42:58] It should be fun. Uh I managed to stop into your last night at Booker and Dax and a fabulous plate of country hams. Had to leave early, so I hear we missed the after party. Oh my god, now I have that song going through my head. Reignation, best song ever.
+
+[43:09] Best song ever. You even like that song, Anastasia. She said yes. She grudgingly said yes. I do like that song.
+
+[43:15] Looking forward to hearing about your next incarnation when it's ready. We didn't talk about this, did we last week? Yeah, you did. I did? Mm-hmm.
+
+[43:20] Already talked about measuring alcohol? Yeah, you did. Oh, well, so I don't need to get into it, Jeremy. I answered your question. Jeremy, if I didn't answer your question, then uh get back to me.
+
+[43:29] If Nastasia is just being like, I can't stand listening to Dave anymore, so you know, I don't you know want to hear it. Uh hey, uh Dave and Cooking Issues Team. This is Quinn from LA. Uh I heard you briefly talking about triple ex uh extraction chicken stock in one of your back episodes, and I'm intrigued uh enough to try to want to make my own using a coon recon pressure cooker. I've made pressure cooker chicken stock many times, but only extracting flavor and collagen from the bones once.
+
+[43:53] With double or triple extraction, do you pressure cook with the chicken bones slash carcasses? Then strain the stock, then add a fresh batch of chicken bones, mirapoi, and other aromatics to the fresh stock, then pressure cook again. If you could please elaborate more on the procedure, it'll be greatly appreciated. I can't seem to find recipes online. Thanks for your help, Quinn.
+
+[44:09] Yes, that's how you do it. So here's what you do. You you well, if you're making, if you're browning it, which I almost always do, I don't really make white chicken stock very often. You make white chicken stock, Paul? Almost always brown.
+
+[44:19] Almost always brown. Me, that's me. So you don't, you yeah, you put it in, you smash as many bones in, and you just fill up to cover the bones. So you're trying you're trying to make the richest stock possible, so you're you don't want to add too much water. The classic mistake everyone makes with stock is they try to make too much of it and they add too much water and then they end up reducing it down, which is I think not what you want to do.
+
+[44:40] So you you pack as much in there uh with some miracroid, more onions, obviously, although it's going to increase the sweetness. The problem with pressure cooked stocks is that uh onion flavor drops off, and then to counteract that, you increase the onion amount, but what that really is doing is increasing the sweetness. So you have to be careful on that. Don't triple mirapoix, right? You're mainly looking to meet it up.
+
+[45:00] So what I would do is it sounds like a scaling problem, Dave. Uh well, this is a repetition problem, right? Because every time, like what you're trying to, you're not trying to add that much more veg, right? So after the first extraction of veg in the pressure cooker, and then we're talking short stocks, so not like like you're trying to do like very fresh tasting stocks, so you're not doing like a 45 minute extraction, you're doing shorter extractions on the bones. So maybe you're not pulling everything out, but everything tastes like really good and nice.
+
+[45:25] So you're doing like 25 minutes, like 20, 25 minutes, second ring, let it come down uh naturally, otherwise you don't want to emulsify the fats in, so don't do the fast release on it, right? And then you strain it out, fresh carcass, uh, maybe not Mirapoix, hit it again, then taste it to see whether you or not you want to add any more fresh veg to it, and then you can like you know tune the stuff out there, maybe throw in a little pepper at the lat at the last one, bring it up, and then you'll have like a very, very extracted, uh, like very like rich uh stock, and you can do it all in like an hour and a half. And it tastes good. Is it efficient? No.
+
+[46:04] But usually what happens is I end up not I'm not cooking at a restaurant, I don't need that much stock in my house, and I tend to accumulate a lot more chicken carcasses than I have need for sacks or soups. And so a lot of times I'll just do like a double or a triple, and I'll get a much more flavorful, uh, I think, in my opinion, flavorful, like fresh, bright stock. Uh because I just don't need that much of it. Does that make sense? Yep.
+
+[46:30] All right, let me see. Oh no, I stopped Dropbox. Do we have more time for more or are we hosting? Uh Nastasia says we're done, but but but Dave says that we we can go. All right.
+
+[46:40] Greetings from the UK. Uh first things first, thanks for your great show. Uh wife bought me a copy of Liquid Intelligence, uh, and uh he enjoys it, which is good. But since we don't have time, I won't read the rest of it, but I'll answer the uh oh, by the way. I answered a tweeted question regarding dried peaches and Houstino yield, so you know, dried peaches lower Houstino yield quite a bit.
+
+[46:58] So he tried pre-blending the dried peaches with 75% of their weight in water, and the yield went up dramatically, so which is good. Good to know that worked. So um, so here's the question. Uh he he's opening a new uh he or she, he or she, he or she, Nick. Uh he's opening a new bar, uh, and he says we're uh we're doing a new bar, we're considering adopting a pre-diluted, pre-chilled batching approach for the stirred drinks on the menu.
+
+[47:20] These are likely to be about 60% of the menu. The eight is to speed up service and ensure consistency. I like both of those things. The restaurant is located in a small rural town where the finding and keeping of skilled and capable staff is likely to be a permanent challenge. Batching, therefore, seems to make a lot of sense as this will also uh simple uh make it more simple to uh do staff training, etc.
+
+[47:40] The restaurant bar will have uh a total of uh 50 seats and one to two bartenders. The issue we have is that suitable refrigeration kit is expensive, so like the Randell that we use at the bar. Yeah. Conventional fridges don't appear to be cold enough, and conventional freezer freezers are too cold. So my question is this it would appear that I can use uh like a PID uh refrigerator, like a brew controller, to adopt uh a set point of let's say minus four to minus six Celsius with a conventional freezer whose highest temp would uh normally be about negative fifteen Celsius.
+
+[48:08] The unit has a default three-minute setting for compressor delay protection. Do you have any experience with these type of plug and play controllers? And is there anything we need to be aware of? Do you think they'll have an impact on the compressor lifespan that makes the whole batching approach a nightmare waiting to happen? So it has a protection.
+
+[48:23] So the problem with compressors in general is you don't want to do what's called short cycling, where you turn them off and turn them right back on right away because the compressor has to like push against uh it's just a nightmare. It's just like really shortens the lifespan, which is why they have a three-minute cycle on it. Um I think three minutes might be a little extreme for for for uh kick in. You could probably deal with a couple minutes more. I think the the if you're using a conventional chest freezer, uh the nice thing about a conventional chest freezer is when you open it, the cold air tends to stay in it.
+
+[48:54] Uh, and so I think that should work fine. Uh and and those conventional home freezers have the advantage that they're super cheap. So, like if one dies on you, you can just go buy another one, and your PID stuff should be almost plug-and-play to get to go in. So, I think you shouldn't have a problem there. Uh, what do you think, Paul?
+
+[49:11] Sounds correct. What is the Randell cost? I don't know. The problem with the Randell is just we we never got it uh what's the word? Uh serviced properly, so the gasket went bad.
+
+[49:21] What's nice about the Randell is like it the ones that we had weren't designed to drop the FX freezers, they're very accurate, they go up and down, but they're they're not designed to drop the temperature or something, they're maintained to to they're designed to kind of maintain it. They're in effect are big drawer igloo coolers. So you would open them and the temperature would stay very constant because the cold air would move in and out with the drawer and it's very well insulated, so you get very minimal temperature drops, uh, which is good. So the more insulated uh your freezer is, which a lot of home chest freezers are very well insulated because they're meant for like you know, hunters and whatnot who don't want to have a lot of energy input into it, and so they're fairly well insulated. Um so they should work.
+
+[50:00] You know what I mean? I think it should work. But uh the problem with uh reach in chests is that it's hard to get a first in, first out system because the stuff lower is hard to is hard to get to, so you have a stock rotation issue, but whatever. You can move right to left. Up, down, right, left.
+
+[50:17] You it's no, it's hard to literally put stuff into one of those things and to have like five bottles tall. You know what I mean? Lower in a rack full of your bottles. Yeah, and then go rack by rack, slide up, yeah. Yeah, there's ways around everything, but it takes a little work.
+
+[50:30] Uh, an alternative or for possible use of conjunction to reduce the opening of the freezer. What are your thoughts on the insert uh inserted uh insect refrigerated bottle well? So it's basically a bottle well that's refrigerated. Um the one that you showed me doesn't really go that low enough. I am looking into a similar problem, but I'm going to definitely move to a glycol, a glycol-based uh uh refrigerant system that allows me to keep bottles exactly where I want them.
+
+[50:54] So uh the wave of the future in terms of this, and something I'm working on, like I say, right now, is refrigerated glycol. Then you have to like obviously wipe the glycol off the outside. That's what those if you go into a wine store and they have those little vortex chillers, that's all that stuff is, is uh refrigerated. I'm pretty sure that's all it is, refrigerated glycol. I'm not using salt, right?
+
+[51:14] You ever looked into those things, Paul? I assumed it was water. Water? How's water can't well you think they're actually going at that high of a temperature? For wine?
+
+[51:24] I don't know. Well, I'm gonna do glycol. You know, propylene, food grain. Yes, not athletic. I guess I could do salt, but salt's so corrosive.
+
+[51:32] And then, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, all right. So then uh next week we will get to uh we had some questions, uh maybe we don't. We haven't we talked about melon pan last week too. No.
+
+[51:44] Melon pan was the one I missed? Yeah. On butter? Right. Son of a gun.
+
+[51:49] All right, next time. If I haven't talked about the melon pan uh from Portugal, give me a call back and we'll uh talk about it next week. Go vote, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[52:21] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[52:48] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. You're also cooking issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network from a Burns P3 in Bushwick, Brooklyn! Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1 o'clock, you know, Tuesdays, you know how it works. Listen, very special day here in the studio, joined with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:48] As usual, we got Dave in the booth. Yo. Yeah, I like that. Cut your cut your applause off like just a boom, applause gone. We have.
+
+[0:55] Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go, Stasy. Uh we have uh formerly from Popular Science now, uh now uh what Paul Adams, what do you what do you what do you what do you what do you call yourself now? Paul Adams. Yeah, just just plain Paul Adams.
+
+[1:08] That'll do. Master of drones, master of uh you but you like how much of your mental life is devoted to each component of things you're interested in? You're interested in 100% of everything. Yes. So it's like 100% drones, 100% food, 100% cocktails.
+
+[1:26] Yeah. Science. High functioning science. Radio, 100%. All of it.
+
+[1:30] All of it. I like that. This is uh it's a good good technique. So it's a very special day. Call in your questions uh to a 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:39] That's 718-497-2128. Should we just start with the Okay, okay, folks? The uh by the way, happy Thanksgiving. This is the Thanksgiving episode of uh of the cooking issues. Uh so if you have any Thanksgiving questions, please uh call them in.
+
+[1:54] We were going to have today uh Mark Ladner from Delposto. Uh uh talk about his new book, but I think we're gonna do that right after the break, right? Yep. So that you know, we're gonna push, although it would have been nice because then people could on Black Friday go out and purchase his book. I know.
+
+[2:10] Well, you maybe purchase purchase the book and then we'll come and we'll talk about it. He'll come in uh next week. Is he already scheduled? Mm-hmm. All right.
+
+[2:17] Um so uh for those of you that are listeners to the show, uh we at Booker and Dax have been working for it seems like forever. Yeah. Forever. On um centerfuge, building a centerfuge specifically for the kitchen and bar. Uh and that's actually why Paul's here.
+
+[2:34] Paul's helping us out with what's about to happen. Uh we are at the point in production where uh we are actually getting the tooling made for the actual uh item, and so we are going to put it on pre-sale on Black Friday. So yay, pre-sale. So um Nest Nastasia, do you know uh like when we're gonna put the video? Are we gonna put the video up before the pre-sale?
+
+[2:59] So that people can watch the video or no? I don't know. You know, we haven't decided yet. This is the first you've asked me. Yes, I know.
+
+[3:06] This is why they call it live radio. What do you think? Oh my god. Well, maybe people on the chat room can weigh in. We have a we have obviously they'd want to see the video.
+
+[3:15] Yeah, the real problem, the real problem with the video is I know here's the reason I don't want to do it, right? There's a first of all, here's one thing. Our videographer had a family emergency. So uh, you know, we had to shoot it ourselves, and uh actually I'm I'm late today for a decent reason. I was actually editing the thing.
+
+[3:32] So listen, I am not a video editor. So if you're like blah, blah, blah, you I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Would you rather bias interviews made by a professional video editor? Or by a professional center view editor?
+
+[3:45] That's a good point. It seems like you're trying to get an award for this video. I'm not trying to get an award stuff. Like, I don't want to hear the hate from people of why'd you do this? Why'd you do that?
+
+[3:53] Why is it? I got it from my wife. Yeah, from my wife. Even from my own wife. She's like, why'd you do this?
+
+[3:58] I was like, because I didn't have the other shot to put in. But you didn't go to school for video editing. I had to go to school for fine arts, but not for video editing. That's true. Anyway, point being I don't want to hear if you have any complaints about the way the video is shot, I simply don't want to hear them.
+
+[4:11] Like keep them to yourself. Anyway. Shoot your own promotional video. Yeah, yeah, right. Or you know what?
+
+[4:17] Look, uh you should have a contest. Make a promotional video. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. Uh you know what though?
+
+[4:23] I take I take it all back. As long as you buy the centrifuge, say whatever you like. As long as you buy it. Uh yeah. Um, so anyway, so the point is uh we uh made the video uh with the proto.
+
+[4:33] The name of the centrifuge is Spinzall. The spinzall. Spinzall. Spins all. The culinary centrifuge.
+
+[4:42] And I already got someone on Twitter when I hashtag it, someone's asking me whether it only spins some things. No, spins everything. Won't necessarily clarify everything, won't clarify a rock, but you can spin a rock as long as you have enough liquid in it to balance out. So I think I've talked about it before, uh, but it's it's gonna go on pre-sale on modernistpantry.com slash spinzall. Uh that the link is up now, but it's just a splash page.
+
+[5:06] It's gonna go uh that's not the actual link. What's not the actual link? What you just said. What is it? It's blog.modernistpantry.com slash spinzall.
+
+[5:15] Well right now. But it's gonna be it's gonna be modernist pantry.com. I was gonna say because the video the video also says that. So anyway, back to what I was saying. The reason I don't necessarily want to put up the video live is because it says order, pre-order your spin's all now.
+
+[5:29] Only it's not now. It's in three days. Right. And we're gonna hear about it. If I put it up, we'll hear about it.
+
+[5:39] Anyway, should I even talk about it? Should I talk about it or should I just say watch the video? Talk about it. Talk about it. Okay.
+
+[5:44] What is the spinzall, Dave? How does it work? Well, Paul, that's an excellent question. Uh so uh basically in a nutshell, it's this. I'll give you the pitch.
+
+[5:53] So the centrifuge is if you ask anyone, if you ask, and we didn't have time to go out and get their uh what's it called, their um, you know, uh testimonials, but we'll we'll get them at some later point. I so Chris Young, uh back when he was I think he wrote that section of modernist uh cuisine, but um, you know, the m all the modernist cuisine crew, uh, I believe this. Um I think Wiley believes it, I think uh Tony Calliaro believes it. I think you know a lot of people believe that the one piece of uh modern gear that is kind of beyond a lot of people from a price standpoint, it isn't the roto vap because that one's not as necessary to your day-to-day work in uh in a kitchen. Um it's the centrifuge.
+
+[6:33] Now, especially for bar work, centrifuge, you need it. You know what I mean? It's you don't need it, but if you're gonna do the kind of stuff that I like to do, you need it. If you're gonna make your own orjaws, it's extremely useful. If you're going to um you know do carbonation, you need to clarify things.
+
+[6:48] If you want to do uh Houstinos, just a wide variety of things. Uh for cooks, it makes like fantastic herb oil, you got the no-churn butter. There's just a bunch of like good techniques that it's really, really good for, but it's the one piece of equipment that's really kind of been beyond um most people's capabilities, both home and pro. So uh for professionals, the problem is that the centrifuge is extremely large. So it's you know, it's the size of uh it's basically like takes up the same room that an oven would take up uh in a kitchen, but you also need to be able to get to it, right?
+
+[7:20] It also needs balancing because they have big buckets, super heavy, it costs like eight to ten thousand dollars. But those are nice because they do like they do like three liters at a time, really like more like two because you don't fill the buckets up all the way, but like they're called like three-liter centrifuges. Um but anyway, so you're looking at eight to ten thousand dollars, ten thousand if you need the refrigerator, and most of you do because those centrifuges tend to heat products up quite a bit. Um on the home side, I mean that's just ridiculous. Who's got a house?
+
+[7:46] I mean, I guess if you live way out in the burbs and your kitchens in your garage, you could have the space to have a centrifuge there, but you just don't have the space. And also it's very hard to justify at home spending eight to ten thousand dollars. But uh the alternative for a centrifuge to do all these things has basically been the two hundred dollar, uh we'll call them the champion, or you know, Paul, you had what's yours called? It's clinoceal. Clinoceal, which is designed for the veterinary blood market, I believe.
+
+[8:10] Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Veterinary blood market? Mm-hmm.
+
+[8:14] Huh. Hmm. So the uh but clino seal is a terrible name. It sounds like seal the musician. No?
+
+[8:22] Or like seal the animal? Like, why would you see oh, seal because it's for blood, so it's sealed so it doesn't spray like dog blood in your eyes. It sounds like some form of birth control. Ooh, that's rough. It's going to go into a weird place, Dave.
+
+[8:35] No, actually, it's named for a sealed musician who invented it. Oh, okay. Well, then I like it a lot, and I want to buy one even though I have no use for it. But these small units, the problem is they use these tiny vials that are impossible to clean out. You're really only making like uh all said and done, like like uh, you know, eighty milliliters at a time or 100 milliliters at a time.
+
+[8:51] Yeah, it's hypothetically. It's it's horrible. So, anyway, so the idea is is how do you get uh something that can make a reasonable quantity in a small package and you move to what's called an open bucket. So we built a 500 milliliter rotor. The rotor holds 500 milliliters at a time, but a real 500 milliliters, not like, oh, the capacity is 500 milliliters, but it really holds 300, it holds 500 milliliters of product.
+
+[9:13] Um and it spins that much, and it's huge and open, so it's really easy to get the stuff out of. It's got fins, it balances kind of like a dishwasher. So the way a dishwasher balance uh sorry, washing machine uh balances is it uses uh a liquid ring balance. So, as luck would have it, or as I say as physics would have it, when something spins, uh, if there's a liquid in it, that liquid will tend to uh move such that it counteracts imbalance that's inside the rotor, it tends to self-balance. The trick with it is, and I can say every I mean this is patents on this are go back decades and decades and decades and decades because washing machines have been a problem for a long time.
+
+[9:46] Um and spinning ring balances have been around since since forever. But uh one of the problems is so you need to keep the liquid from sloshing so that it can actually balance properly. One way to do it is to increase the viscosity of the liquid. I can't do that because I don't know what you're gonna spin. So we have fins inside the bucket that uh keep the the entire ring of stuff uh rotating as a torus, but then we also have to allow movement in between.
+
+[10:09] So part of the art is figuring out the shape of the fins on the inside uh to get it to work right. But also, nice thing, you take the fins out and you have access to the whole uh inside of the bucket. The other trick is is that I want you to be able to do more than 500 milliliters at a time. So we have what's called uh tube feeder that fits into the rotor that allows you to add product into the centrifuge as it's spinning and then it it pours out. Um so that's basically that's how how it works.
+
+[10:35] Now there's some some facts about it that are kind of cool. Uh for those of you that haven't used a lot of centrifuges before, uh spinning buckets is what we all use because you need the capacity, but fixed angle rotor, which is the kind of the crappy clinic seal model, actually clarify a lot faster and a lot better uh at a given G force than the uh than the swinging bucket ones do. And ours acts like a s like a fixed angle rotor, but is like is like a big bucket. So the funny thing is is that we can actually clarify things most of the time faster than the big centrifuges can, uh even though we're actually running at half the G forces and like half the noise level and like infinitely more safety than the other one is. And the whole thing fits uh into something um slightly larger than a food processor that's it's so easy to lift, in fact, that I have it in my backpack.
+
+[11:27] Oh, you'll like this Nastasia, you'll enjoy this. This is Nastasia's favorite kind of story. So, right after this, we're going to uh food and wine, right? Anyway, so I'm running up the the subway stairs to get here. Uh and you know how you sometimes you just don't lift your foot high enough and you kick the stair?
+
+[11:45] Yeah. So I don't lift my foot high enough, I kick the stair, and I start going down. Now, I have the centrifuge, the the spinz all on my back. And so I say, okay, as I'm going down, I'm like, I could try to catch myself. But if I try to catch myself, there's a possibility that I will spin and smack my backpack into spin.
+
+[12:10] Like you know when you catch yourself, if you only catch yourself a little bit but you continue to rotate, you'll spin over and you'll smack in on the other side. So I just went straight down on my knees, right on the stairs. Boom! Like straight like boom. I was like, ah, you know what I mean?
+
+[12:25] And then got up and went, but the centrifuge is fine. Centrifuge doesn't care. Well done, Dave. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[12:32] Anyway, oh, some more interesting facts about the spinzall is that it will run, it runs on either. Now, for those of you that don't know, the United States power supplies that we use here are 120 volts. Well, whatever. They're like 105 to 125, depending on where you are. But the key thing here is that they are uh 60 cycles per second.
+
+[12:51] 60 cycles. That's the that's the frequency of the power uh mains. Now, in Europe, right, mo mo Europe, mo almo all of Europe actually, runs at 50 cycles per second, 220 to 240 or something, somewhere in there. Now, uh it's not really the voltage. The voltage is easy.
+
+[13:10] You just put a transformer on it and you can change the voltage. The real problem with equipment is changing the number of uh the frequency of the power because it changes the speed at which motors operate. Um the good news in the spinzall is that it doesn't care what frequency you put in. So you will need a transformer to use it in Europe, or um, or actually, you won't need a it's interestingly you won't need a transformer in Japan. Japan's the weird one, it runs at 120 volts 50 cycles, which is crazy.
+
+[13:38] That is weird. It's the only place in the world, I think, that it uses our voltage, but like a European standard for the frequency. It's crazy. I think someone will correct me on this. But anyway, so um, yeah, so it'll run anywhere in the world with a transformer and an adapter.
+
+[13:53] And the reason is that um in order the the centrifuge, most motors, most AC motors, alternating current motors, uh are locked to some fixed number, uh or not locked, but they run based on that their their RPM is based on uh some multiple of the line frequency. So when you're running uh a motor, an AC motor at uh 60 hertz uh with 60 hertz power, and you take it to um a country that runs on 50 hertz power, you're running it at five-sixths the speed, slower by you know, by a good chunk. Uh and that would not be good for the centrifuge running it at a slower speed. But luckily, this in order for the spinzall to work properly, part of the patent, it's patent pending. Did I mention patent pending?
+
+[14:34] Did I mention that? Patent pending uh is that the rotor speed moves up and down slightly. So once it reaches its full speed, which by the way is about 4100 RPM, uh it will decelerate and ex accelerate it like kind of sinusoidally, it'll oscillate up and down. And the reason it does that is to create a little bit of angular acceleration of the ring torus on the inside of the spinning thing, and it allows the puck, the the solids, to uh form more evenly around the ring, and it actually helps to sediment the stuff faster uh because it kind of from experience, I mean I haven't done maybe this is just anecdotally, but it kind of helps the particles dig in. It gives me a faster uh clarification.
+
+[15:12] So um, yeah, so it moves up and down, but to do that, the spinzall actually creates the frequency that the motor runs at, and consequently it doesn't care what frequency you put into it. So you can run it anywhere. Um what else am I missing, Paul? Anything else? Oh, it will be NSF certified, UL certified, and CE certified.
+
+[15:29] We're going for all the certifications. Now, you might ask, how much would I have to pay for such a thing? Well, the retail price is what's the retail price, Astasia? 999 dollars. Do we add the 99 cents or no?
+
+[15:42] Sure. 999.99? Wait, 999.99. Yes. Uh but for this pre-sale only, we're going to sell it for $6.99.
+
+[15:53] Yeah, we're not even gonna charge the extra 99 cents, just $6.99. Um shipping will be included in the United States, but foreign people will have to pay for their own shipping. Now here's the thing. And Nastasi and I don't just don't have the money. I would pull the money out of my pocket if I could, but I just don't have the money.
+
+[16:17] So we're gonna pre-sell them at uh that price, but if people don't buy them, if we can't get the pre-sales to uh do it, we just won't make it. So the way the pre-sale is gonna work is you're gonna uh you're gonna basically pledge to buy one. It's not actually a Kickstarter, but it's gonna run similarly to a Kickstarter, but on the modernist pantry website. You're gonna pledge to buy one, and then only after we reach our target number, do we do we've officially set the target number yet, Nastasia? I think it's the thousand, right?
+
+[16:48] Thousand units? So $700,000, basically, $699,000. So once we reach that number, then we charge your cards and we go into full production. And when do they get them? Uh they will they will ship in June or July of next year.
+
+[17:06] Uh now, this is not, by the way, for those of you that were uh part of the Sears all thing. Here's how the Sears all worked. The Sears all was Nastasia and Piper, back when Piper worked with us and I in the basement of the Booker and Dax lab, um we bade we literally made the prototypes for the Searzol, which is the little torch attachment that we sell, uh, out of uh cocktail shakers. I went to uh the Bowery restaurant district here in New York City. I bought the smallest three-piece cocktail shaker that I could find.
+
+[17:36] I took a plasma cutter, cut it into the uh Searsol shape. That's literally how the Sears all shape was developed. It was built around the smallest available uh three-piece cocktail shaker. Uh then we shipped, we we did the Kickstarter. Uh Piper and I in the basement made, I think 20, right?
+
+[17:54] We made like 20 uh cocktail shaker Sears alls in the basement uh, you know, on Eldritch Street here, mailed them out to chefs, and we did the video with those protos. That's how we did our Kickstarter thing. And we hadn't yet found a manufacturer uh or any of that stuff, which is one of the reasons why it took a long time. I think if you've never made something, like uh produced something, making a single prototype is blindingly easy compared to actually getting something manufactured. It's very there's there are more difficulties than you would probably think, right, Nastasia, when you say it's fair.
+
+[18:27] This is not what's happening with uh the centrifuge. With the centrifuge, we not only have the manufacturer, we have the subcontractors, we've already gone through uh like five rounds of protos, and we're actually in the place where uh we're going to make the tooling. So I feel a lot more confident uh with with my uh dates and numbers than I did when we launched uh the Sears All. You say that's fair? Yes.
+
+[18:54] Yeah. Um so what am what else am I missing? Anything? The prototype looks great, it runs great, it's tiny, it's very quiet. It's like a little food processor.
+
+[19:06] It's extremely impressive to see and operate. Oh, well, thank you. So uh so listen, swear to this is this is how this is gonna work. Either from Dave's mouth to what is it? Oh, I can't, that's not safe for work, Nastasia.
+
+[19:17] No, I thought it's oh your version. Yeah, yeah. It's supposed to be your lip to God's ears. But that's not my that's not my version. Yeah, it's not my version.
+
+[19:25] My version is not part of the family show ethos that we try to maintain here at Cooking Issues. But anyway, so that's the that's the extent uh of the pitch, but I will just say this that um if you do not uh if if if it is not something that you guys are interested in, then we'll know we will know, and we won't build it. And to be honest, Nastasi and I will fold up the equipment company. I'll just go to a separate bar and just go write books. What do you mean?
+
+[19:55] Oh yeah, yeah, sorry. I'm going to well, no, I have a family. I can't be the Leatherman. If you didn't tune into the show where you talked about the Leatherman, was a guy in the 1800s who never spoke to anyone and just wore clothing that he made himself out of discarded boot leather uh and like a tin pan that he carried around with him and walked a continuous circuit of 340 or 50 miles once every 34 days, 10 miles a day, and never slept inside uh, you know, a day in his adult life. And just did that until he literally dropped dead and was found in one of his caves dead from the mouth cancer that he had the past year, the last year and a half of his life.
+
+[20:32] The Leatherman. Uh uh, if you look him up on the internet, it is Leatherman Perren's Vagabond. You know, vagabond used to be such a horrible vagabond now sounds like vaguely romantic, right? Because we use we use bum when we mean vagabond, but like back in the day, vagabond was a you know was bad, very bad. You didn't want to be a vagabond.
+
+[20:51] Right. Yeah. Um anyway, so uh let's go to a commercial and come back with actual cooking issues questions. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook.
+
+[21:22] Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[21:52] Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit ChefSteps.com slash J O U L E. That's a new version of that uh thing.
+
+[22:19] I was in my head, I was thinking you only did one. I was thinking, no, but you never had the chill to the next episode section in there. Yeah, no, that's always been in there. We just never take the midway break. Um so uh I uh for the for the like first time, my wife is actually listening to what I was saying on the thing, and she was like, Hey, thanks for making me look like the bad guy.
+
+[22:39] Which you know what again, for like throwing her under the bus. I was like, you know what? That's fair. Fair point. Here's the thing, right?
+
+[22:46] One of my all-time favorite things about my wife is that she is like straight up honest, no sugar coating, like tells it as she sees it. Like this is like honestly, my one of my favorite things. Like, unlike, and so like when something is not like the way that she wants, like, she thinks it's bad, she's gonna say so, which is why she was such a fantastic editor for my book. And I mean, without my wife, my book I people think I'm like saying this to be no, without my wife editing the book, the book would not have been like anything. It would have been horrible.
+
+[23:18] And uh, so you know, she is like an amazing editor, but on the same side, when you just come from an editing session with someone who's actually a good editor, it is painful and it is there is friction involved in the editing process because they take something you've worked on and they shred it into tiny pieces, but only to make it better. But it just, you know, so anyway, so I should not I should not have tried it, I should not have accidentally thrown her under the bus. Nastasia, on the other hand, is like, I don't care, I don't care what it looks like or what it reads like, just get it out there, right? Well, you we have a different perspective on things where I think getting it done is better than perfect, and you think perfection is it's not perfection, it's like well, anyway, whatever. Whatever.
+
+[24:01] Um, so let's get to uh some questions. Um, before I get to well, I'll get some questions first. Uh this one is in you have the answer from Del Posto, right? I have some comments beforehand. By the way, do you like the word and do how do you pronounce induja?
+
+[24:16] I always say like induja. What do you say? Paul, you're you're an induja man, aren't you? Sounds good. It sounds not pleasant.
+
+[24:24] Like, is like, right? Yeah. Right. What would you rather have? Would you rather have some delicious salumi or induja?
+
+[24:34] Dave. Would you rather have lomo or induja? Would you rather have suprasata or as we call a supersad, or would you rather have enduja? Would you rather have spec or enduja? prosciutto or induja.
+
+[24:47] Enduja sounds like what it is, though. Like, okay, so what it is is a super it's like a very spicy, you know, very red, very stain your clothes, very fat, heavy, pasty cured meat product. Yes? Yes. The answer is underneath there.
+
+[25:08] You know there. Yeah, but aren't you gonna read it so that like not have to read both like a chunk? Yes. We need a what? We gotta wrap up in five.
+
+[25:17] Oh no. Yeah, we have another uh five ten. Hi Dave, uh the Hammer and Heritage Radio Peeps. I decided to try the induja recipe from Mark Ladner's excellent del Posto cookbook. And intend to offer it to my guests pre-Thanksgiving dinner.
+
+[25:31] By the way, Nastasia and my editor, Maria Guarnicelli, hate pre-meat and cheese at uh at a large meal. Paul, what are your thoughts on pre-meat and cheese? It will fill you up. So what it's tasty. See, they hate it because in a classic restaurant, the cheese course comes, of course, at the end.
+
+[25:48] Yes. My feeling is at home, home is less formal than at a formal restaurant. That's why it's home and not a formal restaurant. That having cheese, because it's more like cheese, the cold antipasti kind of idea, but it's with doesn't have to be Italian, right? So you have cheeses, meats, bread, wine while you're waiting for the thing to come out, and then at the end of the meal, that's when you bring out the port and the stilten.
+
+[26:10] So you bring out cheese again at the end, but I think you can bookend a meal with cheese, and it's not problematic. But Nastasia doesn't believe that. Not for Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving in my family, we always assume like when people Because I assume we were gonna eat at three. Okay, well, sorry for your assumption that was incorrect.
+
+[26:27] But the uh the point is is that the like when you have the like no but you say this in every meal. No, really. I always have cheese at the beginning of everyone. Maria hates it, and you agreed, you nodded your head up and down that you thought that she was right. You're saying maybe just about Thanksgiving.
+
+[26:40] No, she we weren't talking about Thanksgiving. We were talking about meals in general. So basically, make Maria happy. Oh, so you so you I did not know that you were the kind of person that says stuff you don't believe just to make people happy. That wasn't the kind of person anything.
+
+[26:53] Oh, I owe the I owe her another book. Okay. Uh I had my butcher grind uh the shoulder for the we're back to the question, folks. I had my butcher grind the shoulder on Saturday and I prepared it within a few hours. The grind was somewhat coarse, and I used plastic wrap to form it into a log.
+
+[27:07] Now, if the if you thought andugio was a bad word, and doja log sounds like even worse. Um I like it though, but I can't have a lot, so fatty. Yeah. How much can you eat of that? Not much.
+
+[27:17] What about you, Paul? Like one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if there's a lot of bread, it's like, you know what I don't like?
+
+[27:23] I don't like when they used to serve you like a sh uh a boatload of foie gras with no starch. Like the thing is if I'm gonna have something really fatty like uh Lardo or like I just want some starch to cut the fat. Yep. You know what I mean? Yep.
+
+[27:36] Okay. Um the grind was somewhat coarse, and I used plastic wrap to form it into a log. The cook, no one can form plastic wrap logs like my man Nils. My man Nils Norin is the plastic wrap log king. I learned from him and I got pretty good.
+
+[27:48] But Nils Norin can take any the man can take like a tractor trailer semi and form it into a perfect cylinder using only purity brand plastic wrap. He's a plastic wrap genius. That's true. Yeah. Um the cookbook says a three-day cure is sufficient, but since I've never had to rely solely on Prague Powder number two before, I was hoping for some assurance that this sausage will be safe to eat by the holiday.
+
+[28:13] Thanks a bunch and keep up the good work. Nick from Cleveland. Now, uh, because this is a Thanksgiving question, Nastasia sent uh uh into Del Posto to get an answer for you, and then Mark can talk about it next week when he comes in on the radio as well, but it'll be too late because your family will already have been poisoned by that. Just kidding, we're not gonna poison your family. But the uh a couple comments I'll make straight off the bat, um prague powder or instacure number two is a curing salt.
+
+[28:38] For those of you that don't do any curing, it's a mixture of uh salt and uh powder number two is a mixture of sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate. Trit and trite. Now, uh if you don't know, this this is all you need to know. Nitrite, ITE, is the fast-acting version of nitrate. So what these things that's what caused the cure color in meats, it's what it has a specific cured taste.
+
+[29:07] It also specifically, those nitrites and nitrates uh specifically in inhibit botulism from growing. So in sausages, which by the way, botulism I think comes from the Latin for like sausage. Yeah, um, like it's classic because you're taking meat that's been exposed and folding it into an oxygen poor environment, and that's why you can get botulism from it if it's not either uh cooked or cured properly. So the the nitrites uh help to uh prevent or or prevent botules, stop botalism from growing. Now, uh nitrates are really just the long acting version of nitrites.
+
+[29:41] So since this is a three-day cure, I don't see any reason why you would include nitrate in it at all. I don't understand why they're using prague powder number two and not instead of prague powder number one. Typically, you only use number two uh on long-cured products, and by that I mean things like hams, where you need uh because what happens is as this stuff soaks into your meat over time, nitrate is converted to nitrite and then converted on further to form the products that actually cure the meat. So if you don't require that kind of time lapse um or time release rather action on the nitrates, you don't want to use them. So I don't know why he's using number two powder.
+
+[30:20] We can ask him next week, I would use number one. Um that said, there's also a couple of things going on here. The nitrites will immediately prevent botulism from growing. And since you took meat and it was exposed to oxygen, botulism will not be growing in the meat from the get-go. So you will be safe on a botulism count.
+
+[30:39] This is just my opinion now. I'm gonna read the answer from Del Posto. The only issue you have is that if there are other bacteria in the meat, for instance, E. coli, or if you're one of these people that believe trichinosis is still a problem in the U.S. pork source, which it isn't really, but if you believe that, or if you're using wild-caught meat, uh and it hadn't been pri uh previously frozen for the prescribed number of days to kill Trichinella, that's also a possibility.
+
+[31:02] But uh, if there is a bacteria in it, for instance, E. coli is one of the bacteria uh of interest in uh muscle in you know mammal meats, um, it will take a certain amount of time for that E. coli to be destroyed by the action of uh salt uh dehydration and the acidification that happens as meat is curing, because bacteria grow in the meat, lactic acid bacteria grow in the meat, uh drop the pH, i.e. increase the acidity, and it's the combination of uh loss of water, uh increase in um salt, and uh uh increase in acidity, decrease in pH, that really prevent uh and killed bacteria that are there that are present already, bad bacteria, uh, and prevent new ones from growing. That said, induja is such a high fat product that I don't know how what the water activity is from the get-go because it's such a high fat product to begin with.
+
+[31:53] It might start with an extremely low water activity. I don't know. Do you know, Paul? I have no idea. No, that makes sense though.
+
+[31:58] Yes. So uh, and then uh I wasn't I didn't have time uh to look up like how long it takes for things like E. coli to die in uh certain environments. But these are known curves. But here's the answer uh here's the answer uh from Del Posto.
+
+[32:14] Uh whenever you are consuming raw, dried or cured meat, there's always a risk of potential foodborne ill illness. However, we take the following precautions to do our best to minimize uh and prevent them. Do you like it? It's like so classic, like classic like build big men menu talk, you might die. But uh first, always start with whole roasts of meat.
+
+[32:32] The potential for foodborne illness and meats takes place in large meat processing plants where tens of thousands of pounds of meat are being ground together at a time. There is much less risk for consuming ground meat if it is a whole loin to start that you purchase from a reputable butcher and grind yourself. Secondly, when grinding the meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized. Oh my god, whenever anyone says clean and sterilized, what do you think of right away? Willy wonka.
+
+[32:54] The ceiling had to be waiting washed, right? Washed and sterilized so you get nothing. Remember this? No. Like you stole fizzy lifting drink.
+
+[33:04] You don't remember this? Oh my god, you guys aren't Willy Wonkaheads? You remember it? No. Dave, Willy Wonkahead?
+
+[33:09] Uh it's been a minute. I forgot. Ah, man. Hey, I I can't believe all you like. You have kids, do you watch that like every week?
+
+[33:15] I used to watch it before I had kids every week, but then after I had kids, they got sick of it after a while. Thank God they never got turned on to the new one. Anyway. Uh second, when uh grinding uh meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized to prevent any cross-contamination. Or you get nothing.
+
+[33:32] Uh like he was awesome, right? I mean, Gene Wilder? Awesome. Finally, uh, the nitrate and nitrite found in curing salts help to inhibit the growth of bacteria such as botulism that can cause foodborne illness. Yes, the growth of, but it won't necessarily kill stuff that's already there fast enough.
+
+[33:47] That's the question. Uh eating uncooked meat always comes with a risk. However, by taking these precautions, we limit the chance of foodborne illness substantially. The curing of indujia for this particular recipe is for the flavor development more so than the loss of water that is a result of drying. It is similar to eating a seasoned steak tartar.
+
+[34:01] Hope this answers your question. Happy Thanksgiving, uh, Matt. Okay. So in the in the few seconds that uh Nastasia is gonna give me left before we need to go, I just want to bring up uh a question. Now we weren't uh this is not a political show, right?
+
+[34:16] And we weren't here last week, which was the week uh after the election. I'm not gonna talk uh politics, uh, but I'll say pretty much no matter what side of uh you know you were voting for in the election here, it seems like the country pretty much gave a a kind of who gives a crap about um kind of sexual assault. That's kind of what happened. But it's one of the things that happened. It's like we were like all of these allegations flying around, and it was kind of like a uh uh you know, the country was like, eh, it's not important.
+
+[34:47] Like it's like that's the impression I got. I think that's the impression that a lot of people got, which I think is horrifying. And this is regardless of what side you're voting for. And in the in the wake of that, there was a website, and this is this is going out not to the necessarily the people who listen who aren't pros, but people who are in the industry. A website popped up very soon after the election called The Reality of Sexual Assault in the Cocktail Community dot com.
+
+[35:11] And when I read it, it was a uh it was a blog where a number of women had come forward and explained uh what it was like to be sexually assaulted by a particular person in the cocktail community I'm not gonna bring up any anyone's name but a particular person in the cocktail community uh and when I was reading it I was horrified by it but also I got the distinct impression that uh this is actually a much bigger problem than I had realized that like kind of like uh not just there there's a there's a kind of gross uh unnecessary I think um non-inclusive broness about the food industry in general yeah and I think like you know I think everyone thinks that that broness is kind of harmless but it isn't really because it is kind of it is exclusionary like you don't talk like you talk to your bros when you're around people in in you know in not normal environments when you want to kind of be nice or or human to at least I think you don't you know what I mean so like taking it into a work environment such that like a a huge section of the people who are working with you feel naturally excluded is not I think a harmless a harmless thing. Correct. Yeah anyway so like all of that stuff I think you know but at a at a bare minimum you would think that someone could go to work and not be I'm not talking about comments like which are also bad but like straight up sexual assault. I was horrified. And I think one of the problems in the uh industry and when we open we reopen I know that I'm gonna change how uh our um our you know our train our training is to be specific.
+
+[36:50] I think we all need to be when when Nastasia, when we had the training at Momafuku for the like the everyone's kind of making light of the of the uh uh harassment training because the way they do it is so goofy and overly uh corporate, right? So they sit around and we all do these training things. Is this is this harassment, is this not harassment, and it's all kind of goofy things. Here's the truth. The truth is is that I wouldn't want to work in an environment where I can't.
+
+[37:18] I'm I use salty language in in the real life. Nastasia uses salty language in the real life. Um cooks and bartenders can be um raunchy and salty and like and and you know use bad language and say crazy things, and I think that's all okay. It's but everything has to come from a position of respect, right? And a lot of times uh it doesn't.
+
+[37:45] There's a difference between saying that someone has to be politically correct and saying no, what you really want to do is respect your co-workers. Like that's the issue. And I think the real thing when it comes to assault, real assault, and uh sorry to go on about this, but I think it's important, not talked about enough, is that honestly we know what what it is. Like having goofy training where you like are the oh wow, that that was assault. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:09] No, it's like what we need to train on is letting everybody know that it is completely unacceptable. That like the fact that you're a cook and you're it's late and you've been out drinking with your co-workers or you're a bartender and you've been drinking, oh he was drunk. No, he wasn't drunk. He's he's doing something criminal. He is is doing something evil and wrong.
+
+[38:30] If you are someone who tries to use this as an excuse, stop now. If you see someone doing it, don't make excuses for them. I think part of the issue here is that there's a whole group of women out there who think that they need to remain silent because everyone else thinks it's okay. I think the main thing that we need to do, everyone needs to come out and say, this kind of crap is unacceptable. This kind of crap will not be accepted, cannot be accepted, and cannot be tolerated.
+
+[38:56] So hopefully this is something uh I don't know, we could talk about more. Do you think this is an issue we should talk about more or should we talked about more in the community? Respecting co-workers, yes. Respecting co-workers, and you know, don't like let everybody know not to, you know, that they shouldn't be silent, that it's not okay. That it's you know, uh uh by the way, if you want to remain it's up to the anyone who's had something happen to them, you know, it's up to them what they want to do, right?
+
+[39:24] But for the rest of us, don't allow this stuff to take place. Don't make excuses for anyone. Cooking issues. Right. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[39:46] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[40:13] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're kicking off our end of year fundraising drive with a special discount offer from our partner, Heritage Foods USA, an online farm to table butcher shop specializing in heritage breed antibiotic free meats. Donate to Heritage Radio Network before Sunday, December 4th at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. And we'll send you an exclusive discount code for 10% off all heritage foods products. Help ensure another year of Great Food Radio, get 10% off delicious and sustainably produced meat, and support small family farms all in one shot.
+
+[0:35] How's that for a holiday miracle? Head to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate by Sunday, December 4th to make your contribution. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. This is Mike Edison, host of Art Senses of Seizures.
+
+[0:57] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, please visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1 o'clock.
+
+[1:27] No. You know how we do. Uh joined as usual in the studio with uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good.
+
+[1:33] We got Dave in the booth. What up? No, and today, special guest from Del Posto, the only Italian restaurant rated four stars by the New York Times, Chef Mark Ledner to talk about his new book, the Del Postar Cookbook, along with the co-author, uh Michael. Michael, what's your last name? Wilson.
+
+[1:55] Wilson. No relation to like the music musical Wilson's name. No, unfortunately. So you don't have that kind of familial mess up to like because that'd be a good story if you had like, you know, weird Wilson stories. Uh I'm sure there's tons of weird Wilson stories because there's a lot of us, but I don't have any good ones.
+
+[2:10] Not related to the tennis ball people. No. Any like any weird Wilsons in your back? No, uh, probably, but I don't know any of the stories. It's sort of boring, sorry.
+
+[2:19] All right. You know what I found out my last name means yesterday? Strangely? Eagle power. Like Arnold is like some German version of Eagle Power.
+
+[2:29] Anyway, call in your questions for Mark Ladner, to uh 718 497 2128. That's 7184972128. How are you doing, Mark? I'm doing great, Dave. Thanks for having us.
+
+[2:40] And uh thank you, the hammer, for inviting us out here on the show to talk about our book. Uh we're excited to be here. Uh excited to see you as always. Yeah, yeah. Well, so why don't you give us a why don't you give us a give us a lowdown on your book?
+
+[2:53] I can't touch it yet because I'm soaking wet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really it's really crummy outside. Yeah, and you know what? You know what New York New York is like a choose your own crappy adventure when it rains.
+
+[3:02] It's like, you know, especially you being tall, you're gonna get poked in the eye by some idiot's umbrella. That's true. Chinatown is a dangerous place to go on any day. Oh my god. And then, like, you know, uh there's construction everywhere in New York City all the time, but they put these like theoretically helpful things to stop like bricks from falling on your head, but they funnel you through these undrained things.
+
+[3:19] So you're going a whole block under this thing with like a bunch of people with umbrellas, like, get your bell out of my way, get your bell out of my way, get your bell out of my way. And then at the last minute, like there's a giant puddle that can't be jumped or forwarded or anything. And of course, I'm not wearing waterproof shoes, right? Uh of course not. Uh and so, but the lady in front of you just stops.
+
+[3:36] Like, like there's an alternative. Lady, turn back or go. Turn back or go. You know what I'm saying? And then when you get to the platform after you wait for that lady to go, of course, you see the You see that subway pulling away because that extra five seconds that that lady stood there like a like a cow looking at the thing.
+
+[3:53] People in New York people in New York are like cattle. Like just men and women walking around, cow-like, staring off into space, moving slowly, right? Do you nostalgia, you hate that? I hate it. Hate it.
+
+[4:06] Hate. Hate. Hate. Nothing, no. So what'd you do with the public?
+
+[4:09] No offense to cows. Straight through? I mean, what's the choice? I mean, I what I did was I like I I can one of my feet I'm gonna get wet, right? So I jump in and like the the first foot hits, I'm like, that's done.
+
+[4:19] Because I'm wearing sneaks. You know what I mean? They're like totally porous. They're meant to breathe. They're not meant, you know.
+
+[4:23] And what's the what's more fun? Mark, you'll know about this. What's more fun than walking around all day with a wet foot that never drives because uh because it's you know raining out and human? What's it what's the best part? Yeah, um the fact that your foot will potentially never recover.
+
+[4:39] Because I'm still suffering from the same uh athlete's foot I had probably 30 years ago in my first episode. Wow. I didn't think about the permanent I was thinking more of the sweet, sweet stench in the evening when you take off your, you know, like you know, eight hours, nine hours, ten hours later, when you finally get home, you peel that wet shoe off your foot. This is why I tell my son Booker, socks, wear socks. New York is not a town for the sockless, unless you're one of these hipsters in those sandal things.
+
+[5:06] But if you wear sneakers, if you wear a fully encased foot, you should put socks on that thing. What do you think? The porous uh confidence clock. Listen, um, Mario Town coming in and talking to us about the crocs. Are you allowed any color of croc or do you have to go orange when you're over there at Del Posto?
+
+[5:25] No, he is reserved the orange for himself. So what's the Del Posta color? Like a like a nice native? Like a black or blue, yeah. What do you what do you rock?
+
+[5:29] The blue or the black? Uh I wear the uh Brigard slipper clog. Ooh, is that the with the black leather one? With the with the nails. They come in black or white.
+
+[5:42] With the nails in the side. Yeah. That was pretty strong. They're not they're not wood though, they're like slippers. So it's like you're cooking in your jammies.
+
+[5:50] Exactly. Are you should I buy you a silk chef's outfit? That would be sick. That'd be awesome. Like Sakai.
+
+[5:57] Oh my god, that'd be amazing. So I was talking to Jen, my wife, about this. I was like, you know, look. I was like, Dax, I was like, Dax, you know, like my skin right now is fundamentally it's sandpaper. If I touched a silk garment with my fingers, it would like be instantly shredded.
+
+[6:11] You know what I mean? Like all like the crusty like callus and everything. If it touched my face, it would just rip off and there'd be like you know, silk mess all over my face. And any second. The very the very first iron chef I ever did with Mario back uh many years ago.
+
+[6:25] We uh we did a collaboration with Sakai, the Japanese uh French uh chef, and he had like silk pajamas on and these like uh slipper clogs. The guy was like floating around kitchen stadium like it was Hugh Hefner or something. So you have to shitty yourself if you're gonna do that, right? Yeah, it was never sandpaper your hands and he really he really showed us how it's done. Yeah, Jen told Dax he wasn't allowed to wear silk.
+
+[6:46] He she's like, you can't do it. I was like, what about silk jammies? I'm thinking of getting a pair of silk jammies. I mean, anything feel better than the silk jammy? I couldn't afford it when I was a kid.
+
+[6:55] I was like, my mom's like, you can have that like weird satin stuff. What was that stuff made out of? It's like spun plastic. Silk A. Yeah, you know, real flammable back in the 70s.
+
+[7:05] You know, like in the 70s, they used to make kids' pajamas, especially to catch on fire. You know what I mean? Like that as one way to get rid of them. Anyway, okay. So uh back to the book.
+
+[7:13] Uh talk to me. Yeah, so it's you know, it's a restaurant cookbook. Uh Del Posto being a restaurant that's uh going on uh just entered its 12th year, so we have quite a bit of material that uh we wanted to cover. Uh Michael and I have been spending the better part of God, I think the first conversation might have been as long as five years ago. So not with me.
+
+[7:33] Uh not with you. Uh but it's been uh I came on improved like last week. Like last week. Quite a process, and uh yeah. So uh, you know, we chose some dishes that we felt strongly about.
+
+[7:47] And the interesting thing is that Michael really encouraged us to create a book that was uh approachable to the home cook, meaning uh getting rid of some of that professional restaurant speak. And so we actually did it in a very unorthodox way. We uh chose the dishes and photographed them first, and then spent close to two years going back and uh deconstructing and re-en engineering all the recipes so that they uh contained, you know, sort of lay uh home kitchen language, which uh I guess the only uh negative part of that is that the it it creates very, very long recipes because to long wording or like long wording, yeah, yeah, exactly. So uh and they take a long time too. Let's know what's not.
+
+[8:33] These aren't gonna these aren't like quake night recipes, but they do work. They're broken into parts and they are like our audience not scared. Our audience not scared by this. That's true. Actually, we're more scared about the questions they might ask us than them actually being able to complete the recipes.
+
+[8:47] But uh yeah, so they're incredibly thorough, and something that you probably don't see very often. And uh we spent a tremendous amount of energy, you know, uh laboring over the language to make sure that it was understandable from people that were enthusiasts but not necessarily experts. So is a hundred layer lasagna in there? Of course. Okay.
+
+[9:08] Now let me ask uh that's like like what are your most most favorite like you you sh you show up at the restaurant you get the you get the Arancini with the with the gold thing right is that in there? Yeah Marcese it's in there. Yeah. And then you got your hundred layer lasagna you got your little that's easy. What about like your like uh your house pastas are they in there?
+
+[9:24] Like yeah we have a couple different recipes. Your DP coins what are those called I don't remember. We're working this new one now that's actually little toys so they're all different shapes which is pretty interesting. Like what like but like extruded shapes or like actual fish stuffed stuffed shapes but like mix match measty kind of thing. Yeah.
+
+[9:42] Like donkeys and puppets? Only if only we had uh you know don't start 3D printing pasta mark we'll have to have a fist fight right here. People that nimble if we'll beat me I'm sure I don't know. Yeah. Where's the uh where's this uh this uh centrifuge we'll talk about it in a minute we're talking about let's talk more about this thing dude even Stasia says you carry it on your back like an infant is that true I did last week I I brought it here because we had to do something but like I'm printing out I'm printing out some uh I'm I'm um remaking the lid so the centrifuge is designed to constantly feed new product in so I I had to print so there's a thing called a feeder tube part of the patented process of making the spinzall.
+
+[10:24] It's the reason why no one else can build the spinzall the way we can do it because we got a patent on it or patent pending. Anyway so it's this tube feeder that feeds the thing in and um that's what allows it to do continuous feeding. So I was uh building a new a new tube system on the bottom to you know increase the clarity of continuous versus batch mode. And I did like, I don't know, I did like uh oh like two and a half liters of strawberry in a row yesterday, and it was perfect. I actually took it to Otto.
+
+[10:51] I was making uh strawberry cordial for the uh drinks I was slinging at Oto last night. But uh it leaves me to uh this. So like I'll just say but we should talk about the book and then come back and talk about the center. That's that's uh that's about it. So it's you know broken down into chapters, uh antipasti, premi, secundi, uh dolce.
+
+[11:11] There's an entire chapter just on gelato and sorbetti, which is unusual. And we have a question about that actually. I really okay, cool. Yeah. You want to hear that question?
+
+[11:20] Sure, I'd love to. All right. So the and didn't we have a question last week, Nastasia? But we answered it, right? We theoretically answered it.
+
+[11:27] But then do you, yeah. I'm hoping that Chef Ladner is going to be on the show this week. Well, you are in luck, Ellie. Um I just received the Del Posto book this week and I'm enjoying it very much. What caught my eye are the gelato recipes.
+
+[11:42] They use egg yolks but are not cooked. This seems peculiar. I like the word peculiar. You like the word peculiar? It reminds me of Marvin Gay.
+
+[11:49] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh this seems peculiar and I've never seen it before. Why? Do they s uh still thicken the mixture like a custard would?
+
+[11:57] Are they left raw for texture or flavor? I'm looking forward to trying the recipes out soon, but would like to hear Dave and Mark's thoughts about this topic. Thanks, Ellie Nasser. Now I have my own thoughts on this going way back from other you know, from pastry chefs I've known one particular one. Uh no, well, uh make Sam Mason, actually.
+
+[12:15] Of course, yeah. Yeah. Um but anyway, go ahead. You give give your g give your spiegel. Well, you know, uh definitely making more.
+
+[12:24] You know, most of these uh recipes were at least uh initially formulated by Brooks Headley, the uh pasta genius, I mean the pastry genius now at uh Spearity Burger. And then um our current pastry chef uh uh Justine McNeil sort of completed the initial thought. But um, you know, Brooks has always been a firm advocate of the hang and of the really chewy viscous uh texture so that it uh you know hangs around your mouth a little longer, you can taste it a little uh a little better. Um you know, you can really similar to mayonnaise, you know, sometimes you're you're rolling the dice. I mean on uh on the safety, yeah, but what functionally why not cook it?
+
+[13:11] Uh graininess. So Sam Mason. Yeah, uh back when I first got to know him after WD opened in like I don't know, like oh three or whatever, whatever. It opened right around then, right? Oh two or oh two, oh three, yeah.
+
+[13:25] When I got to know him, uh, you know, I came to realize that he had a bunch of ice cream recipes where he wasn't cooking uh the egg yolks, but it was still a custard base, wasn't Philly style. Basically, no one in New York makes Philly style uh none of the big restaurants I know do a Philly style ice cream, um which is weird, even in a Paco Jet, you think someone would do a good Philly style ice cream. Maybe you can't, maybe it overturns in a pot. I don't know. I haven't tried it.
+
+[13:47] But anyway, uh I love good Philly ice cream. You do you like, yes. But has to be super fresh, has to be super fresh. Um anyway, so I was like, yo, Sam, uh, why you don't cook your egg yolks? And he's like, I don't like the aroma and taste of the cooked egg, but I like the texture that they the kind of like smo the smooth uh texture that the egg yolks bring.
+
+[14:07] And so the the deal with not cooking the egg yolks is what they're not gonna bring is the thickness of a cooked creme on glaze. It's just not gonna have that thickness. That said the thicker you cook your creme en glaze, the more eggy it tastes. So you can't like win on that account. Like if you're trying to thicken up your uh your on glaze base and thickening on glaze base is really good if you're gonna serve it as a sauce, right?
+
+[14:35] Or if you're really worried about meltdown. So like you know a thicker en glaze base will do a slower meltdown than a thinner on glaze base. And you know basically all this is creme all these ice cream recipes is a flavored creme en glaze, right? So um but uh the ex the what you pay for with that thickness is egg taste and he hated it. He hated that egg taste and you know what I'm talking about.
+
+[14:56] If you especially like for a pastry chef who cooks with eggs all day long that residual egg nose that you get like after you wash out a stainless steel you know when you wash out a stainless steel bane that's had eggs in it and you're like freaking that egg smell you know what I mean it's more like a Sabillon or a hollandese or something. Yeah so he didn't he didn't like it so he didn't cook the eggs and then later on you know um he started pasteurizing the eggs low temp so he would use pasteurized yolks. Yeah. So they would still uh be they would be safe but they uh ish but they wouldn't um have that cooked note because you can take a an egg yolk you know up to uh 57 pasteurize it for like an hour and and it still is raw smelling you know what I mean it doesn't have that cooked kind of egg thing. Um Michael do you remember any of the conversations happening when we were developing these recipes related to the the yolks um I remember s I remember it being brought up as a potential safety issue.
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+[15:50] Um and then we decided there probably wasn't that it would be pretty rare that anyone that was cooking out of this book was gonna have a safety issue with their eggs. But um also if it tastes too eggy, it doesn't taste Italian. I mean there isn't like a there isn't any sort of inher inherent egginess in Italian gelata. Are are your gelato recipes like you said Brooks likes the chew, are they heavily stabilized? So that's like true Itali it's like there's all these it like people who are like true Italian no true Italian gelato has stabilized to the freaking gills, right?
+
+[16:22] So you don't need the melt protection from a thick on glaze base when you are uh if you're going to add uh stabilizers. The one thing about adding stabilizers, obviously, depending on which stabilizers you use you use, is uh that you need to uh you need to punch the flavors up. I mean that's why like Italian flavors, they're smooth but they're so punchy, because they have to add so much flavor for that level of uh of hit Hey, you know what I want you to try? You know what we should try sometime? Uh maybe in the next week or so.
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+[16:55] Uh i it's not like commercial quantity, like you couldn't do it in a restaurant, but the paste that's left over in the Oh, I can only imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you take a centrifuge, you spin it, you get the paste, spin that into an ice cream. It's got a uh it's got like a a grainy like pumpkin pie texture, at least a peach that we did.
+
+[17:16] Um, but it's so freeing smooth and dense because what you do is you take your fruit, your fruit of choice, you hit it with the pectanex, it wipes out the st the structure and everything. Well, and then it just all oh what the sweet potato is nuts. If we do the sweet you even like the sweet potato puree. And Nastasi hates everything. So the sweet potato puree, what you do with a sweet potato is you take the sweet potatoes, you cook it, right?
+
+[17:38] And then you um just blend the hell out of it with the same enzymes that distillers use to do sacrification for their warts and stuff, and you get this hyper, and then you spin it to get rid of the liquids, right? And then you just have this like hyper uh concentrated, super sweet, no sugar added sweet potato puree. Just add like a little cream to that mother and spin it. You want to do it? I'm sure the applications are just infinite.
+
+[18:01] We can make this puree. We can make a small amount, like just in a kitchen aid because you have LN over there uh at Del Posto. It'd be fun, right? Yeah. And we'll do it.
+
+[18:09] Uh tell people about it. But like even just um like uh fruits like um strawberry and whatnot, like you're just not used to having something that's so smooth but so high solids. I mean, that's the thing so high. For instance, I'll give you an example. So when I did um I did uh 1.75 actually, I did 1.75 kilos of strawberries yesterday in a batch to do continuous mode on my centrifuge.
+
+[18:35] And uh I got 13 I got 1350 uh mils of juice. So if you think about it, that's like 70 that's like 70 something percent yield, which means that the residuals that left over are sa lit. You know what I mean? Because there's no water. Yeah, I mean it's like I mean there's yeah, I mean, like compared, it's like compared to what an original strawberry was.
+
+[19:00] So, like anyway, it'd be fun to play with. And is that just like a Driscoll regular available commercial? Uh you could say garbage strawberry, yes. It was a garbage strawberry, but it still tastes good. Well, there are some advantages to garbage strawberries, and we can talk about that now.
+
+[19:13] So uh I'll get to the I'll say something about the spinzole. I should give the pitch, right? Because Nastasia is like, we're all nervous about this. So listen, so for those of you that don't know, uh, we are pre-selling the spinzole. Should I give it I'll give it the spinzall?
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+[19:27] It's the only centrifuge designed specifically for the kitchen and bar. So we're pre-selling this thing uh for six ninety-nine. Make sure you check out the videos on Instagram there. Yeah, I'm gonna put up some more. We have a bunch more videos uh that we're gonna put up.
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+[19:41] In fact, I'm going to Chef Steps uh on Thursday. Tomorrow. I mean on Wednesday, and uh and then I guess maybe we're meeting with Kenji in San Francisco on Thursday to try to push it out. We'll do a video on Facebook Live with the Chef Steps and show it. But what is Nastasia's uh spinzall uh pitch look sound like just buy it.
+
+[20:00] Come on, Stos. Buy it. That's Nastasia right there. Right. So I'll say this.
+
+[20:04] So like the spinzall does 500 milliliters at a time batch, which is the more than most home people need for most applications they're doing. But it also does what's called continuous mode, where you just stick the pipe, uh you stick a tube in it, it pumps it through and just feeds it through and continuously operates it. And so, like orange juice, you could probably do you could probably do like I don't know, a gallon or two at a time uh without stopping. And then what would you know to change the basket? It depends on the solids ratio.
+
+[20:30] So for something like strawberries, I probably wouldn't do more than like uh th two, three, three liters maybe at a time because you don't want the solids to overflow the rotor. Um but something like lime juice or grapefruit juice or orange juice gallons because there's not a lot of solids in there. Um so really everything depends on the on what you're on what you're doing. Really, the best application, one of the best I'll give you some applications for chefs. Let's forget the bar application.
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+[20:55] By the way, yeah, I will say this. Uh you go to modernist pantry.com forward slash spins all to pre-order it. Now, I want to say something to people so they get this. Uh if you do not pre-order, if we do not sell a thousand of these pre-order, then we can't afford to build it and we won't build it unless some angel comes in, which we don't expect, right? So if we don't sell a thousand of them, they just don't get made.
+
+[21:17] I mean, that's it. Uh, and then I'm just left with that one prototype, wah wah. I call the people in China that Nastasi and I have been working with for two years on this project and tell them, you know what? Sorry, folks, we fold it up, we walk away. I mean, that's unfortunately, yeah.
+
+[21:29] I mean, that's that's what's gonna happen. Yeah. So if you don't order it, we won't build it. But here's one of the people, someone came up to me. I'm not gonna say who it is.
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+[21:36] It was Don Lee, uh the cocktail guy. Uh then he goes up to me, he's like, hey Dave, hey, why didn't you just use Kickstarter? Why didn't you just Kickstart this? Why do you gotta use your own crowdfunding that's not oh that's if wow? So Don doesn't talk like that, by the way.
+
+[21:53] Uh but the point is is here's the reason, one of the reasons why. With Kickstarter, part of it was uh Nastasia, I mean to be honest, Nastasia hates Kickstarter, but uh but she hates everything. She hates biscuits, like that's gonna stop me from making biscuits, right? But the the point is uh we're really taking the risk on ourselves. And this is what I think is not clear.
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+[22:13] With a Kickstarter, if you if the campaign gets funded, you all of your money is gone into a hole. And then you either get the product or you don't. Whether you know, you know, if depending on whether or not the people who are making it are competent, blah blah blah. Uh, you know, that money is gone. You can't get it back.
+
+[22:30] That's part of the thing about Kickstarter. One of the reasons we did this is we didn't want people to feel like they were taking a risk. It's one of the weird kind of incorrect peop notions that people have about they feel safer on Kickstarter somehow because it's because kick pe I know about Kickstarter, right? So they feel safer on it, even though literally as soon as that campaign is over, your money goes into a pit that may or may not, and you may or may not ever get your reward. Well, the other misconception is that money gained uh earned on Kickstarter is free money, which is the most certainly.
+
+[22:58] But in our campaign, you can get a refund up till the up till the very point at which we ship you the unit. So there is zero risk to uh pledge in the spinzall campaign. Zero risk. So you pledge now, what you're telling us is that I'm gonna want we're gonna spend the money, right? Because we need to build the the spinzalls, but at some point you're like, you know what?
+
+[23:22] Uh I don't uh it turns out I hate awesome things. It turns out that like it turns out I am an enemy of quality after all. And uh, you know, uh you could be like, you know what, Dave, you know what, Nastasia, I want my money back. And we're like, okay, fine, boom, here's your money back. And that's one of the main reasons we did it is that the risk, the risk is on us.
+
+[23:41] So you should feel like super uh safe going out there and uh and and getting it. Anyway, uh and remember, you don't you don't buy it, we don't build it. So what are some of the other applications aside from bars? Right. So it like so what Rennie Rizepi did I tell you about the thing with like everyone who's chasing stars.
+
+[24:00] We're like back in the day. Or anything, but the thing is he does he does he what does he have? Does he have two or three at NOMA? He has two, but yeah, but he's got like the Pellegrino, like he was like the top restaurant in the universe, which you know I hate all those ratings, right? I need to test them.
+
+[24:14] They're stupid. They make no mean oh, unless we have one. But like you know what I'm saying. It's like the idea of the I mean like I like anything that helps my uh the people I know are good people, like get more business. I'm for people getting business, and if if like awards and like accolades like this are what it takes for people to go to someone's restaurant who works hard, great.
+
+[24:34] You know what I mean? Anyway. I think it does, it helps. It helps, yeah. I mean, like, I wish that wasn't what helped, but it does, and so therefore I'm glad when you know my friends get these things.
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+[24:41] But um, you know, fabulous and uh Jeremiah got their first Michelin star recently. Well deserved. Yeah, yeah. At uh Contra Contra got the star, right? Yes, Contra.
+
+[24:44] Yeah. Uh although while they're deserved one as well. Yeah, because I mean they're they're joined kitchens, basically. They share their like not joined, but like there's a just one wall between them. Anyway, not talking about that.
+
+[25:00] So uh proteges of yours, though. What? Proteges of yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[25:06] Uh what we're talking about. Oh, wait, Rennie Rizepi. So Rennie, we used to Nastassi and I, when like someone was like trying to get all those awards, we'd be like, and we didn't think the someone was gonna get it, we'd be like, yo, wake up and smell the red Zeppi. You know what I mean? Because it's like it's like, you know, hey buddy, you're not gonna get there.
+
+[25:20] You're not gonna be Renny Rizeppi. Wake up and smell it. You know what I mean? Just be yourself. Anyway, uh, anyway.
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+[25:26] So the uh that's neither here nor there. So uh uh Ariel um Johnson, who was at the Nordic food lab for many years before she moved to MIT recently, uh, she said that one of the main things that they do in the centrifuge is herb oils. So but they they do crazy herb oils. So like I asked her, they do like almost like one-to-one herb to uh herb to oil. So it's it's like pesto thick, yeah, right?
+
+[25:50] And then they spin the solids off. So like I don't do it that thick because I think it's kind of absurd, and I'm not like you know, I'm not trying to, but we'll do like I'll do like two two to one. So it's basically pesto. Uh you know, you take all the water out, and it's super stable. Yes.
+
+[26:04] So what you do is is you blend, you can like in the in the in the spinzall, you can blend any oil batch that has up to about four hundred uh grams of herb. Like it's its sweet spot is around like two or three, like three hundred grams of herb, and then um, you know, the balance uh oil, but it can be any amount of oil you want. It doesn't have to be within the 500. And then uh you add like so you just subtract out the weight of the rotor. So let's say you use 400 grams of herb, uh, you take like 75 grams of water, put it right in the spinzole, start it, and then feed the oil in, all the water goes into the rotor and you get this pure, intense, green, highly stable uh herb oil with no water in it.
+
+[26:46] And it's like you can't possibly make this herb oil without a centrifuge unless you sit there and you twist uh uh you know, like one of those fine bags, and you get like three drops. You're not gonna get any yield. We get we get something like eighty percent of the oil back. So it's like super awesome. And so uh I did a pasta actually with uh I did a I did a basil oil and a parsley oil and mixed them and just because my kids are like my kids are like I don't want any uh like herbs in my in my pasta, but I love that kind of fresh parsley or fresh basil thing.
+
+[27:21] So just toss the oil in, yeah, did it with the finishing oil, toss it off at that, and they were like, okay, they didn't complain because they actually don't dislike the taste, they dislike the idea of a of a leaf. Green leaf, yeah in their in their free product. That's common. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so uh that's good.
+
+[27:35] I really like um again, maybe not for restaurants, but I really like centrifuge butter. Wiley used to make centrifuge butter because it's they were really excited about seeing that today, but we couldn't find any cream in any of these hipster stores out here. But I'll come to Del Postos, like uh when I get back, maybe like I like I don't know what your schedule is, but I'll come back maybe next week when I when I'm back. Sounds great. Yeah, the the butter is good.
+
+[27:54] Uh another classic chef one, I'll tell you so you take a fruit, right? And uh let's say you want to make a really reduced uh pure uh really reduced like fruit thing. This is why I brought. So, like the s the garbage strawberries I had yesterday. What's good about them is they're relatively low bricks, which means if you uh they have l low sugar.
+
+[28:11] And the good news about that is is that you can boil it way the hell down before the temperature gets too high, so it stays pretty close to the regular boiling point uh so it doesn't get brown notes, and you can reduce it way down and then dope the sugar. Well, no, yeah, right. And then at the end, you hit the sugar back in to balance out the acid because a garbage strawberry is low bricks high acid. But I didn't reduce it enough, but yeah, you could try it. I didn't reduce enough.
+
+[28:35] I could have gone twice as much, but you can't reduce strawberry puree with pectin in it, right? So I only reduce this by like twice. I could have done it by like four and hit you know and hit it with uh with some sugar, but or you could hit it with a hydrocolloid. Kind of tastes like shit, Dave. You're like?
+
+[28:50] No, I'm kidding. It tastes really good. I mean it's good, right? Yeah. I mean, but you could have reduced it like it's like jam almost.
+
+[28:56] But anyway. So like really fruity, it's really bright. Yeah. It's good. Yeah.
+
+[29:03] So like uh, but I could have, like I say, reduced it by another, like if I had taken literally, I was like, I thought about this as I was walking out the door, I was already late. So I put my widest fry pan on my stove, cranked it, dumped the strawberry, and was like tried to take it as fast as I could, and then like as I knew I was gonna, by in fact, I missed that subway, the one that would get me here on time. I poured it into that container, took a couple spoonfuls of sugar, it was like sugar and cane. But there's no there's no residual flavors from the enzymes or any other. Oh, zero.
+
+[29:31] You're using like, you're using like zero point uh like zero point two to zero point four percent. They have a vaguely kind of a ferment uh fermented aroma, but they're you know, and this one only uses one enzyme anyway. Also, the color is so brilliant. Right? It's incredible.
+
+[29:48] Dave, did you say what the size of the device is of the spinzel? It's about the size of a food processor. Here's the thing. If you're looking here's the other thing, right? Let's say, let's say you want to have a centrifuge in your restaurant or bar, right?
+
+[30:02] What are you gonna do? You're gonna invest $8,000 on something that takes up half of your prep area? No. That requires training for someone to balance it? No.
+
+[30:11] Because here's the other thing. Let's say you could afford it, right? Now, Mark, what's the worst thing that happens when you're relying on a piece of equipment? Some knucklehead goes and tries to use it when they're not qualified. And they and they break and they break it, then you're out two things.
+
+[30:24] You're out the money, and all of a sudden you're 86 on all the products that use it. Exactly, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, you can't make it on uh an another way, right? Right.
+
+[30:31] So you have two or three vita preps, so when a knucklehead breaks the vita prep, which invariably happens. That's exactly what we do. Yeah, you have another vita prep there. So the good thing here is you can test out to see whether you like having a centrifuge, right? And then you could get a backup because they're so cheap compared to like the big size centrifuge.
+
+[30:47] You know, anyway. That's what because I think that like when I was thinking about it, like one of the main um aside from the size and the cost, is just the lack of backup. I was so nervous, like at the I always had two centrifuges, real ones, big ones, at Booker and Dax, because I needed them. And when one died and we were down to one, I like I flew I was f constantly on edge that it was gonna die. It in fact did die, and I had to run Borrow Wiley's centrifuge.
+
+[31:13] Uh and so like I borrowed his centrifuge, but it's a real kind of a nightmare to be so dependent on such a large uh, you know, 300 pound thing that costs you know eight grand. It's very And a lot of your production is coming out of it. Yeah. I mean, like l well, some 80% of our menu had something that's gone through the centrifuge. Like not necessarily like huge quantity, but like all the clarified citrus, all the um, you know, all those things.
+
+[31:37] So some of that stuff won't take the carbonation properly if it's not clear. No, none of it, none of it. You need to clarify everything that you're gonna carbonate, especially gonna pre-carbonate. I mean, if you're gonna squeeze a lime into something afterwards, I mean fine, but you know, if anything you're gonna pre-carb, you need that. Uh you know, and plus I just enjoy clear things.
+
+[31:52] Anyways, so those are like uh, you know, for example, at your new bar, how many of these spinzels would you perhaps have on premise? Uh four. Four. Four. Because what if we have four that matches the actual like real-time capacity of the big centrifuge, but you could task it with four different products, or you could do continuous.
+
+[32:11] So if you have four spinzalls, you have the actual like real-time um, it's actually faster because they clarify faster than a normal centrifuge because they have less distance to go. So yeah, you're actually at a faster throughput with four sear uh four spinzalls than you are with one uh ten thousand dollars and you don't have to worry about the balancing. No balancing. Yeah, you can run the product separately, you can open it, you can look at it while it's running. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:37] You know what I mean? So it's uh I mean that that's what I'm gonna do. I'm not even gonna buy when when we reopen, which by the way, I'm looking at space, you know, uh, but when we reopen, it won't be called Booker and Jacks though, unfortunately. I don't know what's gonna be called. What do you do have any good bar names?
+
+[32:52] I don't know. What was what did you say the Arnold name means again? Yeah, uh I I uh I uh what's it called? What's that called? I fo I focused on some of the people at the bar last night, uh Eagle Power, and they're like, no.
+
+[33:04] I was like that's like here's how it works. Here's where Eagle Power is, right? So you walk into whatever the actual bar name is, right? Whatever it is, right? Uh what do you think about Rochambeau?
+
+[33:17] Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so you're you walk into Rochambeau and you're like, I want to go to Eagle Power. And they we take you downstairs into like a little like boiler room thing with just one seat, and like you were at the Eagle Power Bar. Like, that's it. That's it.
+
+[33:31] You are Eagle Power. Or alternatively, we just like clear your service. So you know how when you walk in, like we give you the glass, we give you the everything, right? You just say, Eagle Power. And we clear your service and your menu, hand you like a special service and the eagle power, and we put like a box around you.
+
+[33:46] So you are in the eagle power zone there. Uh the other the other uh specialty bar, because we could have multiples if if you know creamy tins. Because I have so many recipes with like cream syrups and you're like creamy tins. That's a bartender's worst nightmare. Yes.
+
+[34:00] It's creamy, creamy tins. Worst. Uh okay. So uh should we take a break? Yeah.
+
+[34:07] Well, let's take a break. Come back with more uh del posto and cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak.
+
+[34:37] And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[35:10] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back. So um actually, Mark, you saw us use the spins all right live. I did.
+
+[35:34] Yeah, yeah. I was super impressed because I had seen uh just video of some of the earlier prototypes, and the thing looked like it was gonna take off to Mars. I was scared for your life. Trying to operate that thing. But this other one is like really tame, it's quiet, it's like the spin uh is uh is like a a pleasant uh noise.
+
+[35:54] Yeah, and you you value uh some sort of calm in the kitchen of it. You're a con you're a con you're a calm cook, right? I mean you're you're you're you you get when things go wrong, you get sad, right? Not like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh the food.
+
+[36:11] I picture you more as a takes too much energy. Yeah. You've hurt the food years ago. You hurt the food. Why did you hurt the food?
+
+[36:20] Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, my my my general philosophy is to remove a variable for error from the equation prior to service so that when you're in service, you can just go. And are most of the times those variables for error the cooks? I'm just messing with you.
+
+[36:35] Not our not our cook. No, no, my your c I've met a bunch of your cooks. Your cooks are fantastic. I think you do. How many do you have?
+
+[36:40] Eight million? Uh yeah, quite a few. Like seriously how many people work in the house. Many dozens. Many dozens.
+
+[36:45] It's but you like over a hundred people work there, right? Two hundred. Two hundred, yeah. Two hundred people work there. And you have what, eight thousand seats?
+
+[36:52] Yeah, you have eight thousand seats. How many seats you have? Four hundred seats. Come on, really? Yeah.
+
+[36:56] 400 seats. Yep. That's like that's like a high school. It's big. Yeah.
+
+[37:02] Like a whole high school could have their graduation if they had the money, the whole high school could have their graduation party. It's twenty-four thousand square feet. So it could actually be many more seats, so I'm actually considering myself fortunate to only have four hundred. Yeah, so also like uh I was thinking about this the other day because uh and we've talked about this. Remember WD 50.
+
+[37:20] Of course I do uh Wiley's restaurant. Uh Wiley's restaurant uh was kitchen wise a cook's paradise. It's crazy. It was like his ratio of uh of uh back to front of house, I was like I was like, like a kitchen that luxurious will never be replicated again. But then your kitchen is pretty freaking luxurious.
+
+[37:38] I mean you have it is I mean, but you do a lot of you do like uh a lot of work in there that doesn't necessarily go out to the floor, right? Or do you use it just very luxurious? I mean you just have like a super luxurious the the the the actual story that uh probably most people don't don't know about was that one time I took a walk with Mario early on during the demolition phase before the construction actually started, and he simply took a look at the room and took his orange clog and drew an imaginary line and said no dining room past this point. Um and that's how the kitchen was done. And you're like, what am I gonna do with all the space?
+
+[38:14] He's like, I don't care. I don't care. Pretty much, yeah. Wow. So how so what is it like just basically like not having to like not having to be in kind of crushing evil death for kitchen?
+
+[38:28] What's that like? It's it's it's palatial. I mean, that's one of the things that I realized uh you know before I accepted the the position was that you know, if I'm going to be working in this profession as a chef, I'm gonna be working many hours and I'm gonna be toiling away and I might as well be in a nice nice environment. Um it's it's bigger than than it than it needs to be, and I don't think all of the necessarily all the young cooks really appreciate what that what that means and what reality is like because it's it's not reality. Um but we just try to be sort of uh you know gracious about it and not take it for granted, and uh yeah, we're we're lucky.
+
+[39:07] I mean, assuming you can do your numbers on the front of house because you have more than enough space, right, for what you want to do. So assuming that like and I guess the bigger your space is, the lower the rent per square foot is probably right. So assuming you can juggle the numbers, do you think that having a a really nice, in other words, like pleasant kitchen, it makes the restaurant more sustainable because you have less turnover? No. You have the same turnover you think?
+
+[39:31] You don't think they appreciate it that's no, I don't think it matters. Do you get a lot of people who leave and they're like, Man, I wish I hadn't left and they come back? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah. Actually that happens quite a bit, which is pretty great.
+
+[39:41] I love that. And do you uh do you then punish them for having left? No, I mean we also treat our people well, you know. We believe in a new sort of world order of altruistic business and uh personnel management, you know. So we treat people well.
+
+[39:58] Have you met your girlfriend Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah, she's the enemy of altruism. It is not true. No, she just it's not that no, look uh let's be on let's be fair to Nastasia.
+
+[40:09] It's not that she it's that's not it. It's that she just enjoys stirring the pot so much that she can't she can't stand that is true. Like a lack of strife. If there's no strife, she's not happy. Peter Kim from Museum of Food and Drink has turned uh coined a term for you.
+
+[40:25] Are you familiar with it? I don't think so. Stasen Freud. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[40:30] Yeah. That is a good one. It's a genius term. So well. Yeah.
+
+[40:34] Get to that. Oh, yes, okay. So uh, you know, since I feel like we're on freaking NPR. We're just asking people for money con freaking constantly. Buy my spinzall, buy the buy it, buy you should buy the Doposta book.
+
+[40:45] Not a big, not a big investment. How much does it cost? 50 bucks. And you can get it. But how much is it away?
+
+[40:49] You can get it way cheaper than that. How much is it on Amazon? Like 25, maybe. Really? No, it's like 40.
+
+[40:54] Really? 40? Yeah. They only cut you 10 bucks, huh? Yeah.
+
+[41:00] No, strand. Listen, listen, listen, listen. Listen. Nastasi and I, we've gone, they they sold all the ones they had. Listen, listen.
+
+[41:06] The uh listen. Uh the strand used to be a freaking mecha. I still go. I l I love going and like looking at it. But in this internet era, it used to be that everything at the strand was half off, basically.
+
+[41:23] You know what I mean? Even new stuff was like half off. And like they would take old books and they would market half off of what it cost in like 1963. And so I would pick up I bought I like my uh you know the um uh my old LaRouce, my old uh Pel Prat, you know the uh the old like Peloprat uh French the classic French one. I picked up my uh 70s edition there for nothing, five bucks, you know what I mean?
+
+[41:46] Uh and then you know, as the internet started creeping in, and as price checking happened, as all these their prices actually creeped up. So you probably got a rent increase, so I don't know, man. You don't think they own that building? I mean they must own that building. My point is that it's not the bargain that it used to be.
+
+[42:02] I still love going there. I used to like more going there when it was so piss hot in the summer because it wasn't air conditioned back in the day, and the employees would almost like like shoot you as soon as talk to you because it was just so freaking hot. Everyone was just dripping, and it smelled like hot, wet, humid book all summer. And what I liked about it is there was no people there. And you know how I like you know, how I hate dealing with you know people.
+
+[42:27] So I was like, you know, I uh you know I love it, yeah. That's freaking, get out of my way. I'm trying to look at books, get out of my way. You know what I mean? You don't hate anyway, I'm not gonna get into this on the head.
+
+[42:36] So the uh I'm like, you know, dude, I'm looking, get away. You know what I mean? Or like the you know what I hate also? I says another one. I hate when like you're being quick and you're not really in the way, and the person gives you the excuse me.
+
+[42:50] If there's an excuse me because they they don't want to touch you, whatever, but they're like, excuse me, I need you know, you're like, no, no, I'm also doing this. By the way, I I am getting so much uh meaner in the kitchen, I found over the years because uh I've taken the same attitude with uh my family that I take with like any anyone when I'm in even a regular kitchen, and I've just realized at Thanksgiving. Oh, we gotta talk about Thanksgiving. I just realized at Thanksgiving that um why they think I'm a jerk. Because when you're in a kitchen and you say, excuse me, what that means is, or or um, you know, excuse me, what that means is I'm about to continue walking through you unless you move.
+
+[43:31] It doesn't mean I'm going to wait for you to move out of my way. It means this tray of stuff is is headed in a straight line, and if you're in that line, you're gonna get shouldered. Like even if it's your family. That's what it means. That's what excuse me means in the context of a kitchen.
+
+[43:46] Am I right about this, Mark? It's not rude, it's not, it's not about police. Behind you or beside you or something. Well, yeah, but like they don't even understand. But like you used to smack people on the ass, but you can't do that anymore.
+
+[43:54] Oh, in exchange, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, but but you get my point. I told you about the guy, I met a guy who almost died. This is another thing going back to the stupid bro crap in the kitchen that we're talking about last week. I hate the the the spoon to the nuts trick.
+
+[44:07] I don't like you know what? I hate it. I've always hated it. Uh first of all, it hurts like hell. And I like I I don't I don't like I don't I don't get it.
+
+[44:17] You know what I mean? Like, uh I don't know, uh like I you know I I'm okay with like a nice pat uh pat on the shoulder. It's a salt. It is a pat on the shoulder, but like the whole like grabbing someone's junk from underneath from behind or the hitting with the spoon. So I met a guy who got uh spooned in the nuts and got an infection, got blood poisoning, and almost died as a result of nut.
+
+[44:41] Yeah, from a spoon, yeah, spoon hit to the nuts. And it's just it's just you know, if you weren't going to get rid of the bro stuff in the kitchen to make it like a a decent place to work for women, like do it for your own nuts. You know what I mean? Like the the nut you save may be your own. I don't see that stuff happening so much anymore.
+
+[45:00] I well, good. Yeah. It's stupid. It's stupid. It's also like being constantly on edge that you're about to get hit in the nuts with a spoon when you're trying to work is not conducive to uh good uh work.
+
+[45:13] You know what I mean? It's true. How do we get to this? No, in the thing. Oh, yeah, yeah.
+
+[45:17] Did you do the charity bus thing yet? Come on. All right, all right. So uh this is over, Dave. When's this over this thing?
+
+[45:23] Thursday at three. What's the website, Dave? Thursday, 3 p.m. Eastern time. Uh the URL is not a Dave, not a Dave Arnold three, like like three on the dot.
+
+[45:31] 302 p.m. Eastern Time. It's charity buzz.com. Slow wait, that's a long URL. No, Jeebus.
+
+[45:40] Hold on. Oh God. All right, well, it's Charity Buzz.com slash support slash heritage radio. You want to throw any asterisks and like numbers like dash one, two, three, dash nine. I'll say one more time.
+
+[45:52] Charity Buzz.com slash support slash heritage radio. I mean, it ain't no monster's pantry slash spinzall in terms of tripping off the tongue, you know what I'm saying? Anyway. But like here's what you're gonna get. So uh Nastasi and I have uh apparently donated this.
+
+[46:06] Uh this is what you get. Uh your experience will take place on a mutually agreed upon date between December 1st, 2016 and December 1st, 2017. Experience will occur on a mutually agreed upon Tuesday. Uh this is valid for one person and uh has an approximate duration of three hours. This is a private meeting greet.
+
+[46:23] The winner may take a photo. Of course the winner can take a freaking photo. Nastasi, why don't you just tell them what do they get? You get to go on the radio show with us, and then you get to eat lunch with us. It makes a lot of sense.
+
+[46:31] All this cost of the meals included, the experience cannot be resold or re-auctioned. I mean, please. Was that really gonna happen? The estimated value is five thousand dollars. What we have one bid for five hundred.
+
+[46:41] Yeah, that's getting there. Yeah, yeah, ten percent. All right, whatever. That's a lot just to come on the radio show? Yeah.
+
+[46:48] And have lunch with you. That's the value. If only I told my kids, you know what? You should sit and finish your lunch. You know why?
+
+[46:56] This is this is five thousand bucks that you're throwing away right here. Anyway, go on, donate Tuesday. On a Tuesday. On a Tuesday, lunch on a Tuesday. The most expensive pizza you will ever buy is uh to come eat with Nastasi and I.
+
+[47:09] So anyway, so back to uh where we're talking, kitchens, Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving. Yeah, we don't have that much time. Okay, well let me let me do this question real quick. Uh from Tom Fisher in Philly. Last summer in 2015, I spent about a month making large amounts of clarified strawberry and raspberry juice in my centrifuge and stored it not in a spinzall, though.
+
+[47:24] Now it wasn't a spinzall. Uh and stored it in my refrigerator in my garage, intending to make sazirup later. I made the strawberry cesira, but never got around to making the raspberry. Imagine my surprise when today I found about two liters of raspberry juice at the back of that fridge. It's still crystal clear and smells delicious.
+
+[47:41] Delician, delicious. The question is, is it safe? You see the Marathon Man, the movie The Marathon Man? Great movie. Is it safe?
+
+[47:48] Is it safe? Remember that? Awesome. Dustin Hoffman. Dustin Hoffman and uh oh my god, his name went out of my head.
+
+[47:53] The uh the the is a safe guy, the dentist. Oh my god, crazy. I'm losing my mind. It's like gone. Not losing, lost.
+
+[48:00] Uh it's still crystal clear and smells delicious. Delicious. Gosh. The question is, is it safe? Given how many raspberries it took to make that much juice, I'm hesitant to just throw it away.
+
+[48:09] Drink that sucker. What you have is raspberry wine, my friend. If you've sealed it well enough, it'll probably be carbonated and you'll probably see a yeast layer at the bottom. But I've had OJ that I've left in my fridge for months and months just to let it ripen up, and that stuff is good. That soda that you make is amazing.
+
+[48:25] No, yeah, and it won't kill you. It won't kill you. So I mean, look, uh if you're if you uh if you reply next week that it was delicious, I'm assuming that I was right and you didn't die. But I'm just saying that I will I I would eat it if I were you. So what would uh Mark, what'd you do on the Thanksgiving?
+
+[48:38] Uh I I went to uh Boston and saw my family and enjoyed someone else cooking for Thanksgiving. Good. How how overcooked was the turkey? Uh it was it was overcooked. Yeah, it was um I brought with me though, uh to save the day one of those M wells tortillas.
+
+[48:58] Do you know these things? No. That Hugh and Sarah make us with the right ketchup. Oh it's like this Canadian uh um meat pie. Oh, I like meat pie.
+
+[49:13] It's not good. Stars your Thanksgiving? Portland with my brother and my family. And how was the turkey? It was good actually.
+
+[49:21] Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael, you?
+
+[49:24] South Coast Massachusetts. Oh, yeah? Turkey was good. Yeah? What style of stuffing do they make there?
+
+[49:29] Do you know you're not some sort of weird oyster stuffing person, are you? No. Just it's like celery, bread, onions. Sausage in that thing? No.
+
+[49:36] Whoa, no sausage in your stuffing? No? Sausage in your stuff anymore? No, sir. Stas?
+
+[49:41] Sausage and stuffing? Stas is like, yeah, American. Hello. But by the way, uh, while I'm telling you what I did, I want you guys to think on this. Are we the country of gravy?
+
+[49:49] Is there any other country that makes American style awesome gravy? I'm not talking about like Sunday gravy for your Massachusetts people, uh, you know, Italian like gravy, which is actually sauce. But does anyone make American style, I want to call it kind of God's gravy. Gravy, real gravy. Anyway, while you're thinking about that, uh here's what I did.
+
+[50:08] This maybe was the smoothest without a hitch uh Thanksgiving ever. What I did was I bought three 14 to 16 pound turkeys instead of one giant one. I took two of them, boned them out, cut uh I cut them all into chicken sized pieces. So uh I also then I uh I cooked the I salted them down and cooked them in uh like milk milk, small amount of milk and sugar under vac until they were cooked, pulled them, ripped the tendons out of the leg pieces, so now we're all boneless except for the thing. It's took them out hot, let them flash off on uh racks so that the skins got real nice and dry.
+
+[50:43] And then uh I buttermilk breaded them like like chicken fried turkey pieces. Then I took the other turkey that was left whole because you need to present a whole bird, and but it was only like 14 or 15 pounds, so it's easy. Let it air dry for like uh well, first I when I took all the bones that I ripped out of the other birds, I hacked them up, cooked them in the uh you know roasted them, made a double uh pressure cooker stock so one half the bones uh started with chicken stock one half the bones boom vent boom another one boom added you know freshened up the uh the veg in that and then took some of that injected that added a little salt injected that into the whole bird into the breast so brining it with its own you know with its own kind you know cannibal brine and then uh let that air dry for a couple of hours turn the other stuff back into gravy with the roux uh I misjudged a little bit how much roux so I had to add some bermini at the end. You know what I mean? Sorry about that.
+
+[51:34] Anyway so then I had the chicken so then I I deep fried at a lower temperature the whole bird in my commercial deep fryer outside with propane deep fried that whole bird till it was done you know then pulled that and then while that was resting at the table did all the like crank the temperature and did all the precooked uh chicken fried turkey and then pulled it out so we had these giant table full of uh freaking um yeah turkey a lot of turkey you can only imagine the uh turkey frying explosion you could be uh responsible for this is why I air dried the yeah I air yeah you air the trick with the first of all with any bird that you're gonna fry whole fry I think a lot of the mistake people make is think you dry it you know what I mean otherwise you get really kind of nightmare scenarios and the other thing is that when you're frying in a commercial deep fryer as opposed to in one of those uh the the problem with the the the um the turkey fryers that they sell you where you're cooking in those five gallon uh jugs and you go down is that it orients the turkey such that if you have any moisture on the inside you create a fountain. And I think that's what a lot of the reasons they overfill the oil and they get this like boiling fountain effect coming through the center of the turkey and it overflows. And and miscalculate the the um displacement of oil, right? Yeah. Whereas in a commercial deep fryer, you're going horizontally, so you still get some foam up, but it's not like it's not a big deal.
+
+[52:48] You know, in fact, the top of the breast was out a little bit, so we were doing we were ladling, ladling over the top to get it done, which is actually not bad because that part of meat you don't want overcooked anyway. So back to the gravy question. Does anyone do gravy the way we do gravy? I don't know. Is it like a cray thing?
+
+[53:02] Did it come from New Orleans? I don't know. But it's like I mean, they like their roux for sure. Now, Nastasia, if you don't like gravy, that might be the end. Do you like gravy?
+
+[53:12] Really? Oh my freaking god. Oh my freaking god. Oh. What do you like, Nastasia?
+
+[53:21] I like lots of things. I don't like I don't like gravy. Do you like mashed potatoes? Yes, no gravy. I bought well, but thank God I'm sure Mark puts enough butter and cream to kill uh five horses.
+
+[53:32] I do. Wait, are you an anti-cream in your mashed potatoes guy, Mark? No, I think dairy is helpful. No, but like, so I know some people, I'm not gonna mention them, Wiley, who is like butter only. I don't want to add any liquid to my potatoes.
+
+[53:44] I want to add all of the viscosity with butter, Robushol style. It helps. But I like cream in my I like the cream in it, yeah. I bought a milk or yeah. I hate food mills, by the way.
+
+[53:54] I I hate them for potatoes. For potatoes. I detest them. I hate them. JJ, who used to work for uh Wiley, uh is now doing ando.
+
+[54:02] He went uh a couple of years ago he was cooking a feast with his mom, his mom handed him a food mill, he opened the door to her house and threw the food mill out into the I'm convinced. So food mill, this is food mill is the one of the biggest enemies of quality that's out there uh in terms of your life. I don't think there's any cook who likes food mills that uses them. No, it's not true. You have cooks that will use the food mill for you.
+
+[54:24] When was the last time you sit there and like took the food mill and you're cranking it and you're cranking it and there's only that tiny freaking wedge that works and it gets it gets clogged and then you have to back it up every two seconds. It takes 18,000 years you're scalding your knuckles the bowl's sliding around it's garbeg. It's garbage it's garbage and I know they use it at Del Posto every freaking day because I was talking to your cooks at Otto last week. No but for tomatoes they make tomato strainers dude it's like No it's not the same. Wait you're telling me that your cook's putting the tomatoes to a tomato to a food mill is better than one of those mechanical like kitchen aid tomato strainers or the large version of it.
+
+[55:01] I don't know what that is. I tell you what it is it's a lot freaking easier to use in a food mill. Well what else are they gonna do? There's like 60 of them. They gotta do something.
+
+[55:10] That's true. Anyway I hate food mills I think anyone that actually has to use them hate them. So I bought a really good ricer. I bought because I you know I've told you this I b I I like potatoes in a ricer. Some people don't like them.
+
+[55:22] I love right I love rice potato because it you're gonna break up those little rice pellets as you stir but it like maintains as much texture as you want. I think I love the rice get like a last I don't know there's something about it that's just right with the ricer. The problem is I've broken every single ricer I've ever used because I'm just like like a an like a man somehow on equipment like I it's not that I'm physically strong but I can break anything especially if there's a lever arm on it. So I bought the scene you take down a tree. Yeah yeah yeah well I uh I I bought the cast aluminum one because I thought it wasn't gonna bend and so far NorPro yeah they NorPro makes a stainless one but someone was like I bought the stainless one and it bent so I was like I'm gonna go with the cast one and if it breaks I'll go get the stainless steel one.
+
+[56:00] So uh do you want me on the way out, you want to tell you what my my pot how I did the potatoes this year? Alright. So what I love, the way I break my ricers is uh uh cook the potatoes, I ro I bit you know, I roast the potatoes in their jackets, right? And then I rice them whole, then I save the squash skins and I fry them up as a leftover. Yes.
+
+[56:19] Right? But it's a huge pain in the ass, and you have to cut all these hot potatoes and like nightmare and all this. So this year what I did was I peeled all the potatoes like standard, foil wrapped them, threw them in the oven, baked them so they wouldn't take on any extra water, and you could do a long bake without them breaking apart. Then all you had to do is like quick snap the foil off and throw them in the ricer, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and you never had to clean out your ricer because it didn't have the all of those skins on the inside. So that was my that was my Skazil's trick on the potatoes.
+
+[56:47] Anyway, that was uh that's Thanksgiving at my house. Thanks to Michael and Chef Mark Ladner for coming in and talking marginally. I could I it's like pulling teeth, getting you guys to talk about your cookbook. Go buy the freaking cookbook, learn how to make the fabulous hundred layer lasagna. Oh, on the way out, uh here's what I didn't ask you.
+
+[57:03] So you re-jiggered all the all the talk and the way the recipes are organized for for for home folk. Uh and I will vouch for you, knowing you for many years, that you don't like things that aren't the way you want them, right? Sure. Yeah. Uh and so I'm sure that you put in eight boatloads of work to ensure that the results that the people are gonna get are pretty damn close to what you want them to get if they follow your instructions.
+
+[57:29] Is that true? Do you feel you've achieved the same? And in all honesty, uh Michael put in more of the time than I did, but um I would absolutely agree that it's uh it's like Yes. So it might not be the same. But I'm saying, like, so if someone wants to make the hundred layer lasagna here, the workflow might not be the same because workflow in a restaurant is different from workflow at home, right?
+
+[57:50] And like the PLOS is different, everything's different. But if they follow the instructions, they are going to and they're and they are and they're not enemies of quality. They will be able to produce with this recipe. Absolutely no question. The recipes were tested like three times each one.
+
+[58:05] I mean, each piece of the recipes were tested as we went along, but then the final recipe was tested three times. Umce in metric, once in American. Um, and all this was done, all the final testing was done on a floor burner stove in an apartment with our recipe tester. Nice. So it works.
+
+[58:24] You ever set off the detectors, the smoke detectors? Sure. Nice. Yeah many times. But the point is that it works.
+
+[58:30] So we know it works because we we literally did it as if someone at home would be giving it. And the language is digestible, although alone. And dirty secret, by the way, that I guess it's not a secret, everybody knows it, is that like most cookbooks ain't nobody testing those recipes. Your editors aren't like, did you test the recipes? Editors don't care.
+
+[58:47] Like they shockingly, shockingly. I mean, like, you know, my editor cares, but like the vast majority of people they don't care. So like a lot of the cookbooks you get out there, they're just completely untested recipes, especially this is I'm not knocking chefs, but like what happens is chefs you know don't have a lot of time, and so what happens is is that you have your internal specs, and then you try to butcher those internal specs directly into a home recipe, it doesn't work. It doesn't freaking work. Also, because there's a conceit of like, oh, well, they'll never even get this piece of equipment, they'll never even be able to really get this ingredient the way we want it.
+
+[59:19] So why bother? I'm talking about cookbooks from you know, restaurants like Del Posto, sort of the top tier stuff. So that so they say, well, really this we should just write this down because it's another outline for chefs and for people to look at how the food is put together and all that stuff. Um there's some cookbooks out there with a fine print in the back. I mean, sort of some very high-end restaurants to say, basically you can't make this at home.
+
+[59:39] Right. I mean, that's in the fine print. Like, well, so I'm not suggesting that that's a back at all. Well, I'm not suggesting that that's necessarily a bad cookbook or a bad thing, or people aren't taking away something from it, but that isn't what this is. I mean, a lot of times people buy chef's cookbooks just to see how a chef thinks or how a restaurant operates.
+
+[59:56] Yeah, sure, absolutely. But you know, look, there's a long tradition, and uh you know, years ago, Mike when Michael Batterberry was still alive, he had me like write something about this. There's a long tradition in Europe of chefs' books that are written by chefs for chefs, not so much here in the US. In the US, almost all cookbooks are published, even by like hardcore restaurant chefs. Like your hardcore restaurant chef, you know, like like are are published for non-prose.
+
+[1:00:20] They have to appeal to non-pros. And what that means typically is things get dumbed down. And one of the first ones that uh, you know, that's kind of Pajora's way to put it, but you know, it's like the chef doesn't really want to alter their recipes and doesn't really like know what it means to cook at home because they're a chef, and so like it's hard, it's hard to get that get that balance. One of the first cookbooks that co broke the American mold, uh, and actually was just like, I'm just gonna give you the professional recipes, and if you don't want to soak all your anchovies in milk, then just don't make this recipe was French laundry cookbook, uh, way, way back in the day. It still sells like crazy.
+
+[1:00:52] Yeah, well, I mean, it was a great book. You know what I mean? I mean, like whether or not you like are a fan of uh of TK or or you know, any of the stuff, is like that is like they were like, I'm just gonna tell you how this thing works. But I think this, like, like what you're trying to shoot for here is different. You're like, I want you to actually get this result without having to operate like I'm in the French laundry, which is or at like uh at Del Posto in your case.
+
+[1:01:18] So it's like I think it's a different and almost harder task. Yeah, completely. And we alone re-engineered all the all the recipes without dumbing them down. And the reason for doing it. I mean that the real question is why do the work?
+
+[1:01:32] For that is that we felt like Mark's food comes, all the foundation of Mark's food comes from very, very traditional regional Italian cooking. And a lot of that cooking start is sort of passed down through the homes and home chefs. I mean, our home cooks, let's say, and the families. So going back, so we're like, well, this is we should make this work in homes. Like this is Italian food that's sort of founded.
+
+[1:01:55] The foundation of this food is home cooking if you keep going back and back and looking at these regional recipes. So we've got to make this work at home to carry on that tradition in some sense. So it's also it's just a you know, like if you go to Del Posto, which I encourage you to do, uh, you know, everyone there is very uh, you know, keyed up on you having a positive experience. Like the overwhelming sense you get is like a respect for the diner and for the customer. And I think the same thing's flowing over to the book here.
+
+[1:02:23] It's like a respect for the person buying the book that they're gonna get the information that they need. Absolutely. And to me, really, that's the defining kind of uh service, uh, and even in back of house, also characteristic of Del Posto. So makes Del Posto. Traditional hospitality, it's yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:02:37] Anyway, well, thanks so much for coming, guys. Thank you. Cooking issues. Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:02:57] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:03:24] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at Green Markets. For more information, visit Christmastre's NY.org. I'm Damon Bolti, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1 o'clock on the Heritage Radio Network. Joined as usual with Nastasio of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stu? Good.
+
+[0:52] Got Dave in the booth. What up? And we brought everybody's favorite person to beat on. Peter Kim. Once again here to spread hate and vacate.
+
+[1:04] The director slash client of and and uh short order cook, as it turns out for the museum of food and drink. Nice. Oh, you guys in your freaking district. Oh my god, so like these guys, Nastasia, right or wrong. They're like, they live in that old school old school office world.
+
+[1:18] It's like literally 10 people working in this big kind of like lost space. In one space. And they still No walls. No walls. Giant space.
+
+[1:26] And they still have the same like weird office arguments. Like so you think. Over email. We're copied on them. Someone didn't put away their sauerkraut.
+
+[1:36] It's like you think you're trying to get away from like offices to get away from that. I've noticed the spoons are stacking up. And I am not copied on these emails. I'm like, Well, here's the funny thing, Dave. Here's the funny thing, Dave.
+
+[1:49] You don't read any emails that come in, including ones that are pertinent to you. No, but that's a business interest. That's because whenever I yet you respond to the what you call inane dish emails, and you just send me these little needling messages being like kill me, period. That's the reason, folks, that I don't respond to email. If I only got three emails a day and they were important, then I would respond to them.
+
+[2:12] But instead, like when you never all these. Incredibly worthless. I used to have, I'm terrible in meetings, people. I used to have this tactic in meetings where uh remember this is the French culinary nostalgia? Meetings, like people would start just saying inane things, this crazy and like wasting time, and I would just start going and you'd be you would just start like tapping your hands on the table, and they were like, what is he doing?
+
+[2:42] He's like, this is what this is what you are doing to me. You're hurling our time into the ether. Hurrying, like I'm a firm believer, people, in never responding to emails. Now I might take it too far, but I think everyone responds to emails too often. There's a there's a mental cost to switching back and forth between tasks all the time.
+
+[2:58] Maybe this is why people don't ever get anything done. Well, there's something called teamwork, Dave, that requires something called communication. And it either has to happen by phone, email, or in person. So you're saying it's two different schools of thought. You're saying, wait, wait, wait, wait.
+
+[3:13] So Peter, what Peter is saying is that that nothing ever got done before the age of email because there was no team building back before they had email conversations. Back when back when, back when everyone, yes, where you say, you know what? Like, you don't really need to meet every 30 seconds, which is what email is. An email is a meeting every 30 seconds, right? What you and and it's totally inefficient because you're like, oh my god, what do they say?
+
+[3:37] Do I have to get angry? How many people do I have to CC? And then you have to craft a response. And then they have a response to the response, and so on and so on. This is how Hillary got her uh classified email issues, by the way.
+
+[3:46] It's like 18 levels of response. I don't care. Truth. Like these are like long email. And like what's the point?
+
+[3:55] Like, what's the point? Just be especially people. They all work in the same box. Walk over. Emails, there's a reason for emails.
+
+[4:03] Literally, people. But these ones are crazy. Literally, they like I am I can reach over, should I choose to, which you know I never would, I can reach over and touch Nastasia on the shoulder. However, at MoFed, they would send an email from me to Nastasi. That's how it would freaking work.
+
+[4:17] Literally, I could be staring you in the eyes and be sending you an email. Maybe they want to have it on record. To like so it never happens again. The sauerkraut, the spoon, so it's uh Dude, I've never worked in an office where you don't have some of that sort of day-to-day crap. I mean, you just have to.
+
+[4:38] You don't, actually. Yeah, you do. You actually do not. You could choose to say, you know what, people? I am looking at my email four times a day.
+
+[4:46] And that's it. Four times a day. Realize that after I respond to you, I'm not gonna see it for another quarter of a day. That probably wouldn't cut down on the flow of useless email, though. Yeah.
+
+[4:55] Uh well, it would cut down on not the ones, not the external useless emails, but once people net didn't weren't in the position where they felt like they were gonna get a response within ten seconds, that it wasn't gonna be like bing, and you're like, oh yeah, oh wait, oh, oh. You're changing hearts and minds. Here's the other thing, dude. Have you ever like this is especially true in kitchen days? In offices where I'm not saying that offices are bad, but in offices where like productivity is punished, and it's more about like the amount of emails you send that determine whether you're a good human being or not.
+
+[5:23] In kitchens, this becomes a nightmare because you can't actually sit and have a real conversation with someone because they're constantly being interrupted by texts from from other venues. No one can actually there's a huge chunk of people that just can't get anything done because they can't focus for 30 seconds to a minute and a half on the actual important crap that's being told to them live and instead are focused on freaking uh text. Nastassi, you've seen this a million times, right? Especially with once people are bored at work. Like once you get people who are bored at work, then all they do is focus on their texts.
+
+[5:53] That's it. Yeah, so in in your mind, there was a golden age when things got done that stopped around the 90s. No. I'm saying like all these tools are great. It's just they're being used by people uh like in a knucklehead way.
+
+[6:07] I'm saying all these tools are useful. I'm just advocating, like I say, not c being constantly plugged into something that can pull your attention. Maybe maybe you have a job out there, people, that doesn't require you to think. But if you have to think, then being pulled from conversation to conversation every 20 seconds is is not helpful. It's just not freaking helpful.
+
+[6:27] It's like with cooking. It's like when you're cooking in a kitchen. My wife always says, why is it, you know, what is it that's like what is it about the kitchen that you know you think is hard for people to get? It's hard for people to stay in the flow of the kitchen because they get bored and they get sucked out into other things, and then they lose track of what they're doing mentally, their mental flow of what they're doing in the kitchen. And so, yeah, they burn the sauce.
+
+[6:49] They don't take the thing out of the freaking oven, they don't have the timings work out right when the stuff comes out of the oven. Because they're a bad cook, well, maybe, but maybe part of the reason they're a bad cook is that they're not focusing on the flow of what happens in the kitchen. Good kitchen work is supposed to have a little bit of that in the flow, zen like, I'm working and this is what I'm doing. I'm not doing some other garbage, right? I'm doing this.
+
+[7:12] No? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. I had to relate it back to the cooking.
+
+[7:17] So, uh, Peter, why are you here to harangue me uh about something? And be some uh accomplished, I think. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. No, you were gonna harangue me about something.
+
+[7:26] It's gonna keep coming. Yeah. You're not promoting anything? What? Not promoting the same thing.
+
+[7:33] Just here to just here to needle you, man. All right. Well, like, so now I'm owed some needling. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[7:39] Uh so I just got back, uh, not really, I got back at the end of last week, uh, but I haven't done the show since from Chef Steps. First time I visited Chef's Deps in Seattle, went to uh Jamie Boudreau's bar, Canon. Very uh very nice. Nice place. I think they might have just won some award or something.
+
+[7:53] I don't know. Great bar. Uh the most ridiculous liquor list I have ever seen in my life. Like the crazy like they like they can't print the liquor list because it'd be like a phone book, so it comes out in like iPad form. To give you an example, they I don't know, I don't know, uh uh, I don't really understand this, but they have a whole bunch of like uh super super old whiskeys, like super old, like from like the 1800s that are like $1,400 a shot.
+
+[8:18] I asked the waiter, I was like, is that very good, that that that whiskey? And he was like, no. He's like, but when someone like like some like you know, Microsoft or some like you know, tech dude shows up there and makes a giant deal, he's like, what do you got that's really expensive? And then once you spend $1,400 each, this guy bought uh $2,800 worth of uh whiskey, two shots, $200 worth of whiskey. Jeez.
+
+[8:41] Uh you're gonna love that crap. You know what I'm saying? Like that's the advantage of charging so much for something. The customer is inherently gonna like it because it's too much cognitive dissonance if you feel like, oh, that was not really exciting. Right.
+
+[8:52] You would have to be so rich. Like you would have to be, you would have to be billionaire rich to be able to be like, you know what? I can be uh I can be entirely objective about this fourteen hundred dollar ounce and a half pour of liquor that I just drank. Yeah, they have so uh Is that the place that has a giant wall of bottles? Is that it?
+
+[9:12] Uh I wasn't facing a giant wall of bottles. And I didn't look around because that's the kind of guy I am. They have really tall ceilings. I'm that guy that like walks in, sits down and just stares down at his napkin and you couldn't miss this. It was uh I'm thinking of a different place.
+
+[9:23] Right, Nastasi? So annoying. Were you by yourself? I was not by myself. I was with the Chef Steph's crew.
+
+[9:28] Yeah. And you're well, he's part of the Chef Steph's crew, your boy M Michael Natkin. Oh yeah. Yeah, and so I said, How did I said Nastasia still loves you? Yeah, the only vegetarian Nastasia likes.
+
+[9:36] I said uh I said you're still enjoying uh his cookbook. I said, you know, maybe you should write another vegetarian cookbook. Yeah, right? Anyway, well, the only vegetarian Dustas likes is not really that much of a distinction because there's how many people that she likes. Yeah, but if if there's five people that she likes and only one of them is a vegetarian, well I guess you're right.
+
+[9:54] Like on a percentage. Not really much of a yeah. Alright, fair. Uh fair. So anyway, I went out to Chef's Deaths and demonstrated the spins all.
+
+[10:02] They seem to they seem to enjoy it. Uh did a uh Facebook live, which I still don't really understand. I don't either. I don't like I don't really understand this Facebook live. I think it's very new.
+
+[10:10] Right, Peter? It's not that new. It's like six months ago. Yeah, it's kind of new. Why would I want that?
+
+[10:15] Because people can text in as you're doing it. Actually, that's true. People ask questions. I asked it is useful. It's kind of like this, but with people.
+
+[10:23] I'm just joking, people. I'm just kidding with you guys. So uh we did a Facebook live about the sort of dish situation that MOF had the other day. Did you have to do that? All five of you chimed in.
+
+[10:33] Yeah. Oh my god. So uh anyway, so I uh during that, like one and I visited uh Kenji uh can Kenji uh over in San Francisco, saw his digs, uh did the the centrifuge demonstration for him. Here's what by the way, we're talking about the spinzall, which is a new centrifuge I'm selling on uh modernistpantry.com forward slash I'm not supposed to say forward slash, sorry. It's just slash.
+
+[10:52] It's just slash. It's freaking forward slash. Back when I was a kid, when I was a boy, we had backslashes. We had forward slashes. Now it's just slash.
+
+[11:01] So uh modernistpantry.com slash uh spinzall. Uh we gotta sell uh frankly, we gotta sell more of these freaking centrifuges people. I think there's a lot of people out there don't know why they would I mean not you people, if you're listening to this, right? I mean, you know why you want a centrifuge. But I think a lot of people just don't get why they would want a centrifuge.
+
+[11:16] They only think of these modernist kind of techniques. And I'm like, just like being able to make strawberry juice all day all night is like enough for me, or banana justino or any one of them. Would you get one, Peter? Yeah. I it's I mean it's like exponentially cheaper than any other alternative or something like that.
+
+[11:32] Dave, we actually got a question about the spinzall in the chat. Oh, what do you got? They want to know what would happen if you put molasses in it. Uh molasses is pretty much a solution, so I don't think it would do much to it. Um so that's another thing.
+
+[11:44] It's like most people uh I what I realize is is that I've used a centrifuge for so many freaking years that like I um I kind of know what a centrifuge is gonna do and what it's not gonna do. But when Kenji said, what should I spin in this, and we there was a bunch of responses to him about what we should try to spin in the centrifuge, I kind of realized that people don't really understand what a centrifuge at this kind of um level is for. Like, for instance, it's not for clearing uh meat stocks, although I'm trying to think of a way to do it. Um it's it's not for that. It's uh, you know, if you take uh milk, if you take milk with cream, yeah, I can, you know, unhomogenized, I can separate it out.
+
+[12:23] But uh, and if you take cream, I can make uh butter. Uh but like molasses, like I say, is a solution. There might be some crap floating in the molasses that I can get out. But I'll give you some examples of stuff to do uh like see with some sugar stuff. So I did a uh someone wanted me to do chocolate milk, and I'm like, I don't think I'm gonna get a lot out of that.
+
+[12:40] So I wanted to do I did chocolate cream. I made like a cocoa cream and then uh with some sugar in it, and then I spun it hoping to get cocoa butter. Not cocoa butter, but chalk chocolate butter, you know what I mean. And uh what happened was I got an amazing I got a triple separation. So I got like uh chocolate buttermilk, which I used to make pancakes, it was very good.
+
+[13:01] Then I got a very light chocolate butter because basically the only chocolate that was in it was in the whey that was in it. And then I got a hyper smooth kind of like cocoa paste, like Nutella, but totally smooth and liquid, which was pretty awesome as well, because it had been totally hydrated. Uh and uh I ended up mixing those back together to make like a chocolate butter, but like a chocolate compound butter. It was really good. So you could do that kind of stuff, or like uh Greek yogurt, like I could take yogurt, I can remove some of the whey, then you do that, you know, um, and you get like a you can either do Greek yogurt or like a yogurt cheese, which I made.
+
+[13:35] So it does that on that kind of dairy, but it's not it's or for like clarifying juices, but it's not for like breaking stocks. It's not gonna take things that are that don't ever naturally settle or break on their own and make them break. You know, it will spin blood down. I'm told it will spin blood down because it's at the same speed. I got a lot of people asking me about that, I guess to fortify blood sausages, uh or whatever, and that that will work.
+
+[13:59] But anyway. Here's a question for you, man. When was the last time there was a sort of previously inaccessible technology because of the price point that like seriously dropped like this? The circulator went from about uh two thousand dollars. The immersion circulator went from about two thousand dollars in two thousand and two to about eight hundred dollars in two thousand and five.
+
+[14:21] Uh mostly as a result, uh Philip Preston um just wanted more chefs to have them, and so the price got dropped. Because when only labs were buying it, labs are relatively inelastic uh market, they're just gonna pay whatever you ask. Um and so when the chef market kind of got big, you know, Philip knew the price needed to drop. So that was kind of the first big price drop. $800 is still relatively expensive, but that was the kind of the first explosion in into the market.
+
+[14:46] And that's kind of, you know, I'm taking a bigger price jump there with the spinzall. So I'm going from a to eight to ten thousand dollar machine down to like a one thousand dollar machine. So I'm trying to hit some of those early adopters who would have gotten an immersion circulator back in the eight hundred dollar days. Um then WePop Soupypot, bam, uh, who was one of my interns came out with uh the Nomaku, and the Nomaku was, to my knowledge, uh the first commercially available sub $500 uh circulator. And then I think it came in at like th $300 and something originally.
+
+[15:18] And then Philip came out with one and then you know, a whole host of others have really driven the circulator market way down until now it's hard to get someone to pay more than two hundred and fifty dollars for uh a circulator. And then you have people adding like chef steps with Joule, it's added uh the app and the Wi-Fi capability. And so that market is really expanding. I mean, th that's the one. That's where a previously inaccessible thing has really gotten into um into kitchens.
+
+[15:44] Uh because the and the reason it doesn't happen very often is that there's not many technologies that are taken from other realms that have like instant and obvious kitchen applications. Um like the you know, Blender was like they have laboratory blenders, but like the blender was intended to be a piece of kitchen equipment. Um so uh you know, and other things are always gonna be inaccessible, like puffing guns or like uh extruders or you know, pasta extruders and things like this. Although past extruders are becoming more popular, but they're at like the three and four thousand dollar level. So it it it's it's there aren't gonna be that many uh ca there aren't that many things that I've experimented with where I'm like, yeah, that needs to be really popular.
+
+[16:27] Uh immersion circulator was once. People used to say which one of these technologies is really gonna make a big deal. They asked me back in oh you know, oh four, and I and I was like, uh oh the emerging circulator, clearly. You know, and it's one of the very few things I've been right about, you know, uh in terms of uh future predictions. Um and so uh and the other one that I've always wanted, I want if I want a roto vap to be more uh accessible to people, but the f but the reason I'm not building a rotor vap is that although we could make a more accessible rotor roto vap, it still is not gonna have the wide range of use for people that um a centrifuge would, just because it's always going to no matter how uh you know cheap I make a rotor vap, no matter how breakproof I make a roto vap, no matter how bulletproof it is, it's always gonna take like a lot of skill to operate one well and it's gonna take uh a like a fairly steep learning curve.
+
+[17:20] Whereas with a centrifuge, once you learn how to use it, you're just pumping product out. And so um, yeah, and also like a rotor vap no matter what is gonna require chilling. So you're either gonna have to bust through a bunch of ice or you're gonna have to bust through uh, you know, buy a chiller, it you know, it needs heat, needs all this, needs all this ancillary stuff, like a lot of power. And so um, yeah, uh you know, I always thought the centrifuge is the item that should be available in the kitchen, but what it really needed is someone to design one for the kitchen. Um anyways.
+
+[17:49] But we're not selling enough of them, so if you actually ever want there to be a culinary centrifuge, and who knows, maybe in you know, ten years if the market or five, six years if the market opens up more, maybe they'll eventually be a $300 centrifuge. Who knows? You know what I mean? Or you know, a $200 centrifuge, but uh we're just Nastasi and I simply aren't making enough of them. Well, right now we're making zero because we haven't been able to pay for the tooling or the or the production run.
+
+[18:14] But uh yeah, if you don't buy it, we won't make it. Um if I may, I'll say that uh I have the uh luck slash uh misfortune of working with you about as much as anybody else. But I will say that uh yeah, I mean, I can vouch for the fact that uh Dave puts a ridiculous amount of time and thought into this thing. So um if there's anybody who could do it, I mean really this is the only product I really like. Yeah.
+
+[18:39] Really? It's because also you hate having to run the normal centrifuge too. It's big. Which is true. Yeah.
+
+[18:44] Um like the l the lit like I'm very thankful that this is not on the list of things Nastasi will never touch again because the list grows every every day. Um so uh not about my centrifuge, but uh so because I'm working on the centrifuge, I'm getting a lot of uh tweets in about this coffee machine. Have you heard of it? Spin? Spin.
+
+[19:02] And so it's a centrifugal coffee machine. It's actually something I've been interested in. So what spin does is uh they don't show you the inner workings or the guts of it, but what what it is is it's got a bunch of like you know, application hoo-ha attached to it. Uh, you know, you can like make a coffee while you're on the road so that by the time you get home it's cold and ruined if that's what you want to do. I'm kidding.
+
+[19:20] But uh, or you can wake up and you're you can tell Alexa is it's Alexa or Lexis? What's the name of that? Alexa, Alexa. Yeah. Is that a real human name, or is it named that because it's not a real human name?
+
+[19:30] I don't know. Anyway, Alexa, bring me some coffee. And so the spin like will listen, or the Alexa will tell the spin. I saw Kenji, by the way, turn on his immersion circulator like that. He was Alexa.
+
+[19:41] He's like, Alexa. He doesn't talk like that. He's like, Alexa, turn on my jewel. And like and the jewel like turned on and started running. He doesn't talk like that at all.
+
+[19:48] Wait, so it's it's connected to every single appliance with what Bluetooth? I think it can I think Alexa's just on your network, and so he can probably do a Bluetooth enabled device or a wired l wireless device or even a wired device. I think it's just a question of I don't know how it works to be honest. But anyway, so hopefully there aren't that many people named Alexa. I don't have one.
+
+[20:06] Yeah. Do you remember uh the Wizard of Oz? Remember the Wizard of Oz? Like when he's like taking off and like Toto jumps and she goes out to get Toto and they're like, come back. He's like, I can't, I don't know how it works.
+
+[20:17] Remember that? That's like one of my favorite like Wizard of Oz lines. But uh I don't know what I got in that. So anyway, so people ask me about this spin. So what it does is it grinds uh whole beans and then presumably puts the be presumably because I don't know, puts it into the into a basket, dry, spins it up, thereby like evening and like you know, pseudo-tamping the coffee grounds down, and then introduces the hot liquid to the basket while it's spinning and then genera because of the force, uh the theory is it generates the equivalent of a certain amount of pressure.
+
+[20:47] So by altering the speed at which the basket rotates, it can produce something that is espresso like or drip coffee like. Uh now, a lot of people on the internets are like, that won't work. And and people have asked me, do you think that will work? And the truth is I have no way to know because I haven't tested it, right? So I will say that there is no way I believe it's gonna produce something exactly like espresso, and here's why.
+
+[21:12] When you were when you were making a puck, an espresso puck, right? You're basically you're trying to create a hydraulic puck that uh it you know compresses extremely evenly. You then saturate that puck, the puck kind of uh inflates, and as you force water through it, the fines migrate to the bottom, uh increasing theoretically, I guess the hydraulic pressure, but at the same time you're decreasing the amount of solids left, so your your uh rate of water goes through uh faster. Anyway, it's like that. When you are spinning a basket and letting the water in at the same speed, your compacting pressure is the same as your theoretical liquid pressure walking through.
+
+[21:47] Now, an espresso puck, clearly you're tamping with much less force than you are putting water through. So you the equivalent of like maybe 20 pounds of force over the entire uh disc of coffee puck versus 150 PSI uh, you know, of the water pressure coming into it. So clearly there's um a differential there that you can play with with espresso that you're not gonna be able to play with uh with the spin. Um the other thing is I mean that's that's kind of the the main thing. I mean, I so it's gonna be different.
+
+[22:17] Also, in in espresso, as soon as the pressure is released, it stops. This is actually gonna pull more stuff out of the coffee grounds uh because of the centrifugal force than you would get uh if you um just forced water under pressure. It's a different kind of a situation. Now, I did just as a test take some espresso grinds, mix them with hot water, spin them in the centrifuge for 30 seconds. I got or minute, I got all of the grounds back out.
+
+[22:42] I tasted the coffee, it tasted fine because I wasn't pushing it through, I didn't get any aeration, and so I didn't have any of the body that you would have in a normal espresso cup. It had some of the espresso flavors that you would normally have, and it had zero grinds in it because you know I was able to spin it fast enough. But I mean, uh the answer is I don't know. I'm willing to ha test out a spin machine if someone wants us to test it out. But I don't know.
+
+[22:59] I mean, it could be a way to do individual servings well as opposed to like those cups. I've never had a cup based machine that I thought was the greatest thing on earth. You ever had a cup? The worst. Not just bad, the worst.
+
+[23:15] See, a lot of times, uh Peter, what people are focusing on when they're making those single service things is this, and this is a like not what the way I focus in life, but this is a valid thing. Is this single serving better than what the average Jocomo will make given a system that they have to control? So if you're dealing with like the EC pods, for instance, the question is is this EC pod as good as the greatest espresso that you can make? No. Even the guys uh uh at uh um uh sorry, Ely.
+
+[23:47] I mean, say EC all the time, but Ely. Uh is the Ely pod as good as the best espresso someone can make? No, it is not. And they will admit that. But is it better than what 90% of the people will make?
+
+[23:58] Yeah. And so if you're one of those 90% of the people that's gonna make a garbage espresso, then the uh Ely pod is a good solution for you, except for the sustainability and the fact that you're hurling all this plastic into the ether. And the spin, theoretically, if you like the coffee it made, is going from bean to bean to cup. So it's not gonna have any of those sustainability issues. The bra the brevel, by the way, makes the with the automatic grinding stuff, which I was very dubious of, does make a cup better than about 90 what 90% of people would do.
+
+[24:31] I just think there are so many easy ways to make good coffee that okay, maybe not espresso, but like I don't see why you'd want to use one with a machine. I don't like the word pour over. No. No. Right?
+
+[24:41] What about an aeropress? And say it with an Australian accent. I can't, can you? No. You hate you you're you have an anti-Australian accent thing though.
+
+[24:47] Yeah. What about Olivia Newton John's old accent? She's okay. Yeah. I've said gooseneck things annoy me.
+
+[24:54] Gooseneck? Like when someone says a gooseneck. It just seems really precious when you're pouring the water over the pour over. I understand. Why does why do people say precious all the time?
+
+[25:04] Well, because Peter used to work for precious moments. Well that's okay. Uh there's the the the greatest moment of my life is when uh Peter brought a picture of of himself in like a precious moments like furry outfit, and it was not for some sort of cosplay thing. It was his parents made him dress up for the Hallmark store where they used to work. Uh anyway.
+
+[25:24] Okay. Brandon wrote in about carbonation. Hey Bushwick crew, I'm trying to rebuild my carbonation rig with interchangeable adapters. One adapter for the liquid bread carbonator cap, which is the carbonator cap of choice people. Uh, and one for a direct injection into an EC whipper into the whipped cream whipper, uh, I hope, because I don't really like the the soda ones for uh the really just all you need is the whipped cream one.
+
+[25:45] Uh I have not had any luck getting direct injection from CO tank to work uh CO2 tank to work properly. I've tried pressing a small barbed fitting around the uh EC puncture valve, and some CO2 gets in, but not much. Does this uh EC puncture valve have to be pressed down for proper airflow? Would love any suggestions on how to get this working. Thanks, Brandon.
+
+[26:03] Okay, Brandon, you're in a little bit of a pickle here. Here's why. Uh you do not need to press on that valve to get it to work. However, when ever when you're putting a uh a cartridge onto that thing, what happens is the cartridge gets punctured, pushes against that rubber rubber grommet, and is injected into the EC under high pressure. Because remember, that cartridge contains uh uh either nitrous or CO2 uh at a normal uh you know temperature in the atmosphere of roughly 800 psi.
+
+[26:29] So it's shooting in there and it's shooting in a uh a particular weight of CO2 or of nitrous, a weight, not a pressure. And so because of that, the check valve doesn't have to be have a particularly low what they call cracking pressure. And so there's a good five PSI, I haven't measured it in many years, but it's a good five PSI of overpressure uh required to get any flow at all uh through um that EC valve. Uh what I used to do in the day was uh I would build an adapter that actually had the you the cheapest, easiest way to do it if you don't have access to a machine shop or anything like that, is to um take your your barb thing, push it uh against the thing gently, then uh screw, like put some release agent, please put a boat ton of release agent, like do not allow epoxy to get onto your actual EC uh whipper. Cut off, you know, so I'm talking about the thing that you screw the chargers on with, cut that off, and then embed the thing, uh your barb fitting and all that into it and seal the top with epoxy.
+
+[27:33] This way, when you screw it down tight, you have a fitting that can screw and unscrew onto it easily. But it's never going to be ideal because of the pressure drop you're getting across that. So if you're trying to set your tank to have the correct pressure for carbonation with uh a normal carbonator cap, which is a free flow situation, you're never going to get the same amount when you have to force it through a um through that check valve. And that's going to become even more apparent when uh you're trying to shake and get that last little bit of carbonation in because right there you're driving carbonation in under what is essentially equilibrium pressure. So it's difficult.
+
+[28:07] Uh the way that I did it when I really wanted to carbonate in uh EC bottles uh from a tank, and I did because when I opened Booker and Dax uh originally, that's how I thought I was gonna do it. I uh I took uh I made a s I took an old EC uh whipper head. You can get them on eBay real cheap that are plastic. They used to make plastic whipper heads for their non-commercial for their home line. But this the screw threads are the same.
+
+[28:31] I then cut everything off of that thing that I wanted. Um I bought like uh you know screw in valves. I tapped, I I put um basically Bondo on it, tapped it with uh a drill and a tap, and then I cast it in uh I cast it first in silicone to make a mold, and then did a bunch of food-grade polyurethane casts to make a bunch of carbonation heads that fit directly onto uh an EC uh whipper. They used EC brand uh gasket seals, etc. etc.
+
+[29:02] And that's actually what I was gonna use to open the bar with. But you know, it takes a little bit of work, but I mean, okay, it takes a lot of work, but if you're gonna do it for a living, it's and you really want to do it, it's worthwhile. Anyway, uh that answer that question or not? Yes. Yes.
+
+[29:14] Uh Julian writes in about sous vide sauce. Hey all, I'm right to ask about making sauces with the liquid left in low temperature uh sous vide bags. I'd like to use this to make a simple pan sauce just mixed with uh stock or red wine, but the delicious sous vide liquid quickly curdles whenever I heat it further to reduce it, leaving my reductions with weird textures. It's beyond weird, it's freaking gross. It looks like well, we'll get into it in a second.
+
+[29:38] It uh is my best bet to curdle it and strain out the curds. Yes. That was easy. But why don't you take another 10 minutes to answer the question? Yeah, is there some way I can prevent the is there some way I can prevent the protein from curdling or at least get some flavor out of it?
+
+[29:53] Thanks for any tips, Julian. I don't know actually, um that you not any tips to prevent the curdling that you would really want to do. Like you could probably very heavily salt it or very heavily sugar it. But yeah, the way to do it is to as soon as it comes out, just break it really quickly and then uh strain it. And like it it's just it's just uh protein that's in solution and um it's never been raised to a temperature that makes it um that makes it curdle, and so it comes out and that's it.
+
+[30:19] Um you know, the same way that if you cook uh uh a fish too high, like uh that liquid will come to the top, and then once the heat hits it, it goes white, it turns white. It's that same sort of stuff. It's the stuff that when you start heating floats up to the top uh as pond scum when you're cooking meats and you gotta get rid of it. AKA family meal. Yeah, yeah, family meal.
+
+[30:37] Well, you know that story that Alex Guarnicely tells, right? Eating the raft. Ugh. I think about it, I look at it like look eating the raft. Um so anyway, so yeah, so the the quickest, easiest way around it is to just heat it and then strain it.
+
+[30:51] And as a side note, uh a lot of times when you do that, the liquid will uh actually self-clarify because uh the proteins as they coagulate will hold on to some of the um cloudy bits. Speaking of self-clarify, did I talk about self-clarifying cordials? Yes. Uh, all right. Um there you go.
+
+[31:08] Don't need to talk about it again. Done. Uh so there you have it. Now the problem with that, of course, is you're gonna lose some of the product when it curdles. There's not a lot left.
+
+[31:16] So um I don't know whether you want to add some product to it, then curdle it, then strain it. We should take a break. Take a break, take a break and come right back with cooking issues? Ever wonder where your Christmas tree came from? No, you don't have to.
+
+[31:45] New York State grown Christmas trees are now available in New York City. Trees grown on farms here in New York State are harvested just a few days before arrival to the city. Trees cut close to home stay fresh longer, and trees cut close to home travel less, which reduces fuel consumption of delivery vehicles. Did you know that buying a real tree helps to sustain agriculture in New York State by supporting local farmers and keeping important open space in agriculture production? The Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York is partnering with Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at green markets in Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan.
+
+[32:22] So when you shop local this holiday season, you can include the tree in that list. For more information and a full list of locations, visit Christmastre's NY.org. And we are back. So Christmas Tree Farms Nastasia, do you know how uh long it takes to grow a Christmas tree? No.
+
+[32:49] Seven years. Really? Yeah, it's about seven years. At least so I'm told in Oregon. I know a guy who's a Christmas tree farmer in Oregon, and he was like, Yeah, it's about seven years for the trees to get fully mature.
+
+[32:59] I have to say, it always weirds me out to see right after Christmas how everybody just chucks their trees. What are they gonna do with it? First of all, I know first of all, I uh you know, I wish we had the Christmas tree farmers in New York here because you are providing jobs for someone. You don't mind wiping your butt with paper and flushing it down the toilet. Instead, you get enjoyment from a tree.
+
+[33:17] It makes your whole house smell nice, it provides jobs. It's like a low impact uh farming that you can do on on uh trunk of land. Did you get one? What's it? A tree?
+
+[33:28] No. Did you get one from New York State? I don't I don't have a tree. Why do you not have a tree? I just don't.
+
+[33:33] I saw a hipster walking down a tree with something that looks theoretically nice, but is not. Here's what they did. They had a big piece of tree that they cut a disc out of. They drilled a hole in the center, then they took their Charlie Brown tree, right? And they shaved off the bottom of the trunk like a cork so it would fit into the hole in the tree.
+
+[33:51] But this is a far cry from the old time. Old time you had that little wooden cross and you nailed it from underneath. Now that's okay because you're not shaving off all of the xylem. How the hell is this little tree supposed to drink if you shave off all of its xylem? Sad.
+
+[34:10] Sad. So sad. So hipster. It's such a hipster thing. I'm gonna have something that looks like all old school, but like it's like it's like I'm it's more dead than dead.
+
+[34:18] It's not see a uh a tree is basically a cut flower. I mean, like you know what I mean? You have to treat it like a cut flower. And would you sit there with so in hand you cut flowers? Would you be like, oh, thanks, and then take the stem and crush it between your fingers?
+
+[34:31] Depends on I know you're a you're the master of uh what's the book, Nastasia? Uh the Grand Wee flower decorating book. And Nastasia's a firm believer. If she hates almost everybody, have you ever been to the restaurant? Yeah.
+
+[34:44] Yeah. But anyway, they're flower decorating at the la grenouille. La frogs are feminine? Yes. Okay.
+
+[34:52] So it's uh the La Grandui. Apparently they have like one of the greatest. Okay, do the say it, say it accents. La Grenouit. Or now say it.
+
+[34:59] Now say it with uh African fresh accent. Oh, jeez. Do it. No. You're the one that made me do it.
+
+[35:03] Oh my god, you're not bringing me into the fish. That's where you learned French. Yeah, I know. So you you're name. What?
+
+[35:09] That's not funny. That's that's not funny. That's true. He learned French initially with uh African accent. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[35:15] Yeah. How does that sound? Well, you just instead of the huh, you do a roll dar instead. Dave's just waiting expecting. He's not gonna do it.
+
+[35:23] Peter's not gonna do it. He does a good he does a good accent anyway. But the uh what were we talking about? So flower decorating, that's like that's you actually like it it's it treats every different flower in a different way, the way it's supposed to be treated when it was cut. Yes, back to Christmas tree farms.
+
+[35:37] Do you remember the first one of the last things we did, the first things we did for Booker and Dax, one of the last things we did was Nastasi and I at the French culinary. Nastassi and I went down and got a Christmas tree, and they're like, this one looks better. We're like, don't care, don't care. Let's we're just smelling the Christmas trees to figure out which one we like the smell of. Took it back up to the French culinary institute and then completely denuded it of uh of needles.
+
+[35:56] We just took the Christmas tree and just instantly stripped all the new needles off of it, and people were like, What are you doing? What are you doing? Shut up! And then we like distilled the entire tree. Yeah.
+
+[36:05] We sat there and distilled the entire tree. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Through a rotovap, and then we made like 1,500 pine drinks for MTV. Remember that? Oh, yeah.
+
+[36:14] It was like MTV, and we did all of those pine things, and that's actually where I was using those EC bottles that I made. I know I wasn't, that was the one where I didn't even agree at an event. No, I that that's no, that's the event where remember all I did was shake. We had one. We had one person who batched one person who I sh uh who added ice to the uh ECs.
+
+[36:34] I shook all night long, and another person had poured because we were just there was just boom, boom, boom, and we were carbonating on the minute. Remember that? 1500 drinks. Ridiculous. 1500 people, God knows how many drinks.
+
+[36:46] Yeah. Yeah. Christmas trees. Fun. Uh so our auction went for $2,550.
+
+[36:54] Alright, nice. That is very nice. We're not gonna call out who who bought it, but uh we uh eagerly wait you coming and sitting down and cooking is remember though, when you show up at cooking issues, you're gonna get dragged into the conversation. It's just the way it works. And also the mud.
+
+[37:10] Well, no, I mean we're we're nice to guests, I think, except Peter. Uh and we also like to uh thank during the fundraising drive, these people for supporting Heritage Radio Network uh on behalf of Cooking Issues program. Peter, Gregor, Carlos, Zachary, Thomas, Tad, Co. Oh, like him. Remember, he bought us the modernist cuisine book.
+
+[37:28] Uh he's down in where is he, Texas? Texas, I think. Uh Nick and Mark. Anyway, thanks so much, folks, for uh supporting uh Cooking Issues and the Heritage Radio Network. Um next.
+
+[37:39] We got uh Matt uh Cholick writes in from Seattle. Dear Nastasi and Dave, uh thanks for the show. My question covers cocktails, acidic things like lime juice, orange juice, and even some sodas tend to really upset my stomach. I'm a big fan of margaritas, though. I mean, who isn't really?
+
+[37:54] Margaritas are delicious. I mean, as long as you drink alcohol, margaritas delicious. Do you like margaritas, Peter? Love margaritas. Nastasia?
+
+[38:01] Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh what do you suggest? My question has uh three parts. What do you suggest I use to bring lime juice's pH up to seven?
+
+[38:10] So I can see what cocktails taste like with lime flavor but without the sour. Baking soda comes to mind, but I suspect that will compromise the drink's flavor. It will, and by the way, you're never gonna get it all the way up to seven, I don't think. Uh I'm guessing sour is pretty essential to the drink's taste, but only loosely correlated with the actual acidity. Uh such that there are substances uh uh such that there are substances packing equivalent sourness to lime juice that leave a drink's uh pH closer to neutral.
+
+[38:32] Any thoughts of some options? And finally, do you have any ideas for a solid lemon lime juice substitution that I could request at a bar? Asking for a margarita shaking with an an acid uh tablet seems unworkable for multiple reasons. I tried my uh making myself just a quantro tequila and simple syrup uh drink, but it wasn't particularly good, and I don't imagine that it would be. Uh, remember, if you are going to reduce the acid, you have to also uh reduce the sugar by a lot lot.
+
+[38:57] And if you're gonna make low acid drinks in general, this is not answering your question, but I uh which I will answer in in a minute. But when you're making a drink that doesn't have any acid in it, like an old fashioned, like typically to add brightness to an old fashioned, uh, and first of all, remember it has a minimal amount of sugar. So a two-ounce pourn and old-fashioned is not very diluted and has about a quarter of an ounce to three-eighths of an ounce of normal 50% simple syrup in it. Um to add brightness to that, a twist. And the uh the central oil from like either a grapefruit or a lemon or an orange or sometimes a lime, although I'm not a huge fan most of the time of lime twists, uh, that uh fresh, bright, inherently sit citrus note of those oils gives you a sense of freshness, which is part of what acidity brings is a freshness.
+
+[39:42] So you should always start by uh if you're gonna reduce the acid, if not eliminate the acid, adding uh twist to things because that's gonna help uh punch up the brightness. Uh also reducing sugar content substantially uh is gonna allow you to use less uh acid. A higher any time you have a high sugar content, you're gonna require more acid uh to balance it out. So if you were allowed to have minimal amounts of acid, like they're in sodas, like you say, you might want to switch to carbonated margaritas because carbonated margaritas have less sugar, uh more water, but less sugar overall and also less acid, uh, and they're delicious. But what uh I would not do baking soda uh because it's gonna make it salty and weird.
+
+[40:22] I would actually try I was gonna try it myself, uh, but I don't have any left at the house. Sodium citrate. So sodium citrate is uh a uh a salt of citric acid, but it acts as a buffer. And I I did some basic calculations. So the classic margarita spec that we use uh has in it about uh it is about 172 milliliters after it's been shaken and strained and contains about 1.34 grams of uh acid as citric, it's actually a mix of citric and malic, uh, and that ends up being a molarity of 0.04% uh and a titratable uh acidity of uh roughly 0.78.
+
+[41:02] Orange juice, on the other hand, uh has an acidity of 0.8 of titratable acidity of 0.8. Now, uh I test it uh like if you go on the online and you look up um the uh pH of uh something that has uh uh a citric acid with a molarity of 0.04, uh you get a pH of 2.29. However, orange juice, which has a very, very similar titratable acidity, very similar similar molarity, has a pH of 3.3 to uh almost up to four. And the reason the pH is higher is because not all of that citric acid is going to um uh you know uh deprotonate, it's not gonna um the word's not coming to my mind, it's not gonna turn to acid there, it's not gonna actually reduce the pH uh as much. Um but anyway, so what you're looking at with a margarita is basically the acidity of orange juice.
+
+[41:51] And so I would just test with orange juice because it's a lot cheaper to test orange juice than otherwise, and I would add two uh your orange juice for every like 172 grams of um of uh of orange juice. If you add about a gram and a half of sodium citrate, you might increase the sourness, but you're definitely going to also increase the pH. You might be able to knock it up like a whole point, which is a log level, 10 times 10 times less uh um acidity. Uh now, you said that I should recommend a pH uh meter to you uh so that you can get one. I don't use them in the bar because it I care only about the the taste, which is correlated more to titratable acidity and less to pH.
+
+[42:33] But for your case where you're actually trying to reduce the actual acidity, you get a pH meter. Go ahead and get one. If it if me telling you to get one helps you get one, get one. Uh the one I use is uh the X Tech. Uh I pH meter is a little bit of a pain in the butt because you have to um change out the sensors, and once the sensors dry out, they kind of lose their efficacy.
+
+[42:52] Uh there are some cheaper ones out there now on Amazon that I don't have any experience with. The X Tech is not that much more expensive, and I know it works. So anyway, there you go. What about it? Central oil.
+
+[43:04] Well, that's a bit like the same twists. Uh caller, you're on the air. Hi, yeah. Um my name is Ryan Lee and I'm calling from Brooklyn. Uh I actually was at Otto uh a couple weeks ago, and you made these two great Italiano staliano.
+
+[43:18] Um, but I had a question about food mills, which you were complaining about last week. Um so for the holidays, my family makes homemade applesauce. Um, and we like cook down the apples and then throw them in the food mill skins on. Um, but it's a pain in the ass because the skins get stuck under that crank. Right.
+
+[43:41] Um, so I was wondering if you had any thoughts about other ways to make apple sauce. Well, that's a good question. And so I just did some this is kind of s like related to what you were saying. I just did some experiments uh with um tomato juice and spinning tomato juice to get the paste out of it. And we had this argument with Mark Ladner about food mills and the way he does tomatoes, and it is true that uh tomato done through some form of um strainer like that is better.
+
+[44:09] The tomato paste was so much better and the juice was so much better. And I'm sure with applesauce it's so much better. I don't know of a good I mean you could pass it through a Tammy, but that's also a pain in the butt. I mean, I mean I could I would just try passing it through a Tammy. Um do you have a you know you can get a big Tammy for pretty cheap and then just a plastic scraper and it's got such a larger surface area.
+
+[44:29] I mean, how much applesauce are we talking about? We make like uh maybe like a gallon, gallon and a half, but not like a ton. Oh, yeah. Get a big salad bowl and a big Tammy and then just pass it through with a spatula because you're you're basically doing that with a food mill anyway. Like, let's not pretend that a food mill is anything worse than an in a the better than an ineffective scraper on a on a really crappy Tammy that's hard to like open up and clean.
+
+[44:53] You know what I mean? Right. Uh yeah. I would go tammy on that. Now, uh what I would like to experiment with, but I haven't is there's a bunch of hand crank um uh tomato strainers that are meant for like, you know, old grandma sauce, right?
+
+[45:08] Now I don't know whether they're any good or not. KitchenAid makes a tomato strainer attachment for people that make a lot of tomato sauce. It might also work for uh applesauce. I don't know. You know, it's designed to let through enough pulp to have like a bodied thing, but to exclude the the larger things.
+
+[45:24] So it's not gonna be as fine a grain as something like uh, you know, champion, which lets very little through, uh, or even like the brevel juicer, which lets s lets slightly more pulp through. But it's it's a strainer. It's meant to let the you know most of the particulate through, but exclude like seeds and skins and stuff like that. So I would try also, I would I would look into whether they're uh reasonably priced to try. But for a gallon, yeah, and you're not gonna no one's ever said, Oh, I wish I didn't have this tammy when it comes time to also sift flowers.
+
+[45:51] You know what I mean? Yeah, no, that sounds good. Yeah. Whereas I've heard everyone be like, I wish I didn't have this freaking food mill because now I feel obliged to use it and it was too expensive to throw away, and that's wasteful, and I feel like a bad human, right? I there's nothing but regrets in food mill.
+
+[46:06] They're pretty cheap on Amazon now. What is food mills? Yeah. They're never cheap. Think of your labor.
+
+[46:12] Think of your labor, value your time. Food mills are garbage. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, let us know. Uh tweet us back or whatever, let us know how it works.
+
+[46:21] All right, thanks so much. Thanks. Uh button. Oh, you two. Uh had a a Twitter question in on grinding spices.
+
+[46:28] Someone wants to know how do I grind small amounts of spices? Because you know, they use the whirly blade blade spice grinder, like the one that we have to grind marijuana thing. No, I'm actually not, because th those uh those are good to carry around in your knife kit if you need to grind something on uh on quickly. That's what I use the marijuana grinder for for grinding spice, uh, you know, that you can carry in your knife kit. But at home, mortar and pestle, man.
+
+[46:53] Mortar and pestle is the way to go. I think everyone forgets, like, you know, in the this era of high-tech everything, that a mortar and pestle can take down like a single clove into a fine powder that you can put into anything that you want. And so I don't I like it is a pain in the butt to use a mortar and pestle on really large quantities of things because things kind of slide and pop around and stuff like that. But if you can take a small amount of spice and just go with the with the mortar and smash it into a million pieces, right? That's the way to go.
+
+[47:20] And stop using email. That wasn't on email, I didn't know. Well, none of that tech gathering bring out the mortar and pestle. You should smash your phone with the mortar and pestle. You know.
+
+[47:32] Oh, yeah. Yeah, uh, Darren writes in about martini madness. Hello, it's Darren. The bartenders where I work uh were recently given a little speech uh about and a push to win a competition called Martini Madness in the Sonoma Valley. And although I have nothing to do with it being a line monkey, I have a few questions regarding the subject.
+
+[47:49] The only two rules, um oh, that my phone just decided not to hit okay. The only two rules uh are that it is made with an olive, and also that it uses Prohibition brand Spirits, which is a company based out of the area. Uh anywho, I thought long and hard on the olive and the drunkenness responsibly and came up with an idea which requires floating the cocktail, even though I am pretty sure that the clientele are not going to appreciate this entirely. I want to make a sun-dried tomato, orange, and lemon water that is thickened ever so slightly above the average density of vodka around point nine one six. That's the density of vodka, that is true.
+
+[48:21] Uh whereas, you know, water is one and sugared water is higher than one. Uh so it allows vodka, which is infused heavily with uh manzania olive, I like the buttery flavor, to easily float above it, topped with a thyme oil. Uh the thickening also serves as a textural contrast, as this pairing is a favorite pasta sauce from my family, and I thought the idea of pulling a straw up through the cocktail as you drank it would be a fun concept. So my question is would Xanthan gum or a lightly heated uh gel and low ASOL provide a better texture uh to actually drink while giving the appropriate density to float and infused vodka, or do you have a better solution? Um this is not exactly radio talk, but I would happily set up a payment plan to purchase a spinzall if that is something that could be set up before or after you reach your target goal, be it layo layaway or otherwise.
+
+[49:05] I can't justify the cost for personal uh to potential professional use at this time, but either way, uh you guys are badasses for bringing such an invention to the market. And if it can do what it says, I can't see why any kitchen wouldn't find a use for it. As we say, verbal Bravo Gram, yeah, from your lips to God's ears there. Um but uh I don't know, I haven't thought about it. You know, we'll we'll see what happens in the future.
+
+[49:24] If we get it funded and we actually have them in stock, then you know we have a lot more um a lot more leeway. Now back yeah, flexibility, which is not a word nostasi and I use very often flexibility. So to compromise what uh so let's get back to our question. Uh I wouldn't use Xanthan. Xanthan thickened uh like you could ever so slightly put Xanthan in it, but Xanthan has a very particular look to it, a feeling to it that I'd you know that's not so pleasant.
+
+[49:51] Like uh, I mean, if you're gonna do Xanthan, you want to keep it well under a quarter of a percent. A low ASOL fluid gel, I think would be your best bet, but it has to be really, really light. Um, I'll have you know that uh in it I happen to have, as I told you before, some tomato water sitting around in my fridge, and I took it out of the fridge and floated some vodka on top of it and just did it on the back of a bar spoon and was able to get a pretty good float. There was some mixing uh along the line, but uh, you know, just a good old-fashioned pousse cafe technique was enough to float uh vodka right on top of the tomato water. Um, but if you want to thicken it because you want that textual difference, then I would do low ASL uh gel-an.
+
+[50:32] Another thing you can do that doesn't jack the sugar appreciably, and you don't want to drink too much of it, you give them the runs, is you could uh hit it with a non-sweet uh or a low sweetness uh sugar product, like isom malt or something like that, but it will increase the sweetness. I've done densified cocktails uh with that or with um you know uh low DE glucose syrup because it adds a boatload of density, uh and you're not actually thickening it, but you're just increasing the density of it, which is I think what you want to look at. If you actually want to thicken it, sure, go fluid gel. But if you just want to increase the density, uh I would go with something like a low DE, like very almost unsweet, almost no sweetness, glucose syrup or um something of that nature. But vodka will float directly on the top of tomato water.
+
+[51:15] Uh and of course the oil float on that. You just have to be careful when you uh pour it. Right? That makes sense? Yeah?
+
+[51:21] All right. Uh and we're about to get kicked off the air, but uh lastly we had uh we have nothing else we need to talk about, right? Uh Anthony from Nashville writes in, hey Dave, I just want to shoot you a quick thanks for speaking out against sexual harassment in the hosp uh hospitality industry on the show two weeks ago. As a longtime kitchen worker, I've been witness to many acts of casual sexual harassment, sexism, and plain old bullying in the restaurant. Regretfully, I sometimes behave the same way in my ignorant use, so I know how easy it is to not realize or understand that it's wrong.
+
+[51:51] No one should ever be made to feel uncomfortable uh like that, especially when they go to work. And I think you deliver that message quite clearly and effectively on the show. I know a lot of bonehead cooks who think that catcalling at the hostess and alcohol addiction are just fun parts of being in the pirate crew. A lot of these same guys, as well as many like them, I'm sure, are frequent listeners of cooking issues and hold you in high regard. So I think it's great that you can use this platform to spread a positive message that hopefully will touch some lives.
+
+[52:15] Thanks and keep up the good work, Anthony from Nashville. And he says, P. S. I would be super stoked if book two turns out to be the miracle of moisture management, which I doubt it will be, uh, Anthony. I think I know what the next uh book's gonna be about.
+
+[52:27] We can talk about it maybe next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org.
+
+[52:57] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
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+[0:00] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at Green Markets.
+
+[0:33] For more information, visit Christmastre's NY.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from Birch Week, Brooklyn at Pizzeria. We're burnt as Tuesday. Got some special, special guests, super excited.
+
+[1:00] Got semi-regular, Paul Adams, the freelance now, Paul Adams, the freelance droneslash food master, Paul Adams. That's me. Have as usual Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Steph? Good.
+
+[1:14] Got Dave in the booth. What up? Nothing. But I'm sure you'll all be excited. Direct from the West Coast, San Francisco, the Twin Peaks Mission slash Snowy Valley area, Harold McGee.
+
+[1:29] How are you doing, Harold? Pretty well. How about you? Doing well. Doing well.
+
+[1:33] So uh actually, this is like a first. I think Nastasia might have sent you the questions, so you've actually had time to look at the questions beforehand. A couple of them. Yeah. So like you'll get people will get to see exactly how much better Harold is at this sort of stuff than I am.
+
+[1:46] Uh calling your questions uh for uh Harold McGee or for myself. Food or not food related, too. 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Uh so before I start, in the saga of the uh spinzole, the centerfuge that we're working on, Paul was like, hey, can you do cold brew coffee in in the spinzall?
+
+[2:07] And I was like, well, spin all, all. So I'm sure I can. Therefore, yes. Therefore, yes. So we did a uh a test uh yesterday, which was relatively successful because we're able to do it very quickly, much more quickly than normal.
+
+[2:19] Extremely successful. Yes, because you're using espresso grounds which infuse very quickly, but then you can spin them out in the center fuse, blah blah blah. But this morning, as I was sh, you know, doing another test of it, I wanted to do a much larger quantity. So I was gonna do like uh like two liters, right? Or the maximum capacity you could probably do if you're Paul does five to one coffee to uh water.
+
+[2:39] So uh you you the maximum you can do is about 400, 3 to 400 grams of coffee uh in the in the bucket uh before it before it'll fill. And so they know that limits you to about two liters or somewhere in that range of liquid. Yeah. Uh so it can spin it all, but it cannot pump it all. It is not a pumps all.
+
+[3:02] So I have to think of a new technique uh for doing larger quantities because oh my god, that the coffee grounds are like sludge, they just build up and they settle in and you know the the heavies, the fines keep you know float forever. That's the problem. The fines float forever, but the the heavies they go and like so it just compacted in my pump tubes and it had to break. So I'm gonna I have to I'm thinking of a new technique. Think about this one gonna try when I get home to I'm gonna go buy a couple pounds of coffee.
+
+[3:27] Here's what I'm gonna try to do. Get this. I want to put the dr get this. So, what Paul does is he vacuum infuses his uh cold brew to get a jump on actually getting the liquid into the uh into the ground coffee, correct? Yeah.
+
+[3:40] You do it with a with a regular garbage food saver, right? Not like a decent vacuum machine or anything. I've tried both. Which flavor is fine. Uh, you have the food saver lid that fits on a mason jar, and I do it in a half gallon mason jar, and it's very easy.
+
+[3:52] Yeah, are half gallon mason jars pressure rated, or are you uh flirting with death? Flirting. Okay. Uh well the food saver's not gonna probably suck a hard enough vacuum to kill you anyway. It's not gonna shatter that that thing.
+
+[4:02] Although, uh, you know, safety, uh, you know, I I must say from a safety standpoint, you probably should have a mesh net around it or like tape it with electrical tape. Look, glass is always okay until suddenly it is not. Right. It is not. Like, have you noticed that uh do you know that that was I talking to you about this?
+
+[4:20] Uh when I was a kid, right, all the way up until probably the time I was in high school, and definitely if you bought all the older stuff, uh pyrex meant what it said. Pyrex, fire, like rex, glass, like borosilicate glass. It was clear, not greenish tinged, and you could put that sucker on the stove. They used to sell stovetop Pyrex, you know, borosilicate glass that's fundamentally lab wear, like a beaker. You're supposed to be able to put it over a Bunsen burner.
+
+[4:45] It's it's real because you know they uh it doesn't uh crack as it doesn't expand enough to guess to a crack as it goes up, right? Yep, you're hair, you're familiar with this, right, Harold? Old time uh Pyrex T, you know. I used to have those T T vessels and all this. New Pyrex, you put new Pyrex on a stove, it will explode.
+
+[5:01] It is no longer borosilicate glass, and some awful human being, some terrible, awful garbage enemy of quality, Satan mongering bastard, like kept the name Pyrex on this non borosilicate glass, and and when it explodes, it also doesn't explode into pleasant little pieces like uh you know, like safety glass would. It it shards out into your kitchen, all over your food. Yeah. And uh and for another thing is that you might not know about glass is that uh glass can have a lot of built in uh stresses in it that you know aren't apparent and the clo cracks can slowly propagate uh from uh and what happens is as cracks propagate all of a sudden they can reach a critical point where they propagate extremely quickly. So I remember once in grad school we had a Pyrex new variety this is back when it was relatively new that you couldn't put Pyrex on the stove and uh it was sitting on the counter like a day after we had used it and just boom exploded and shattered glass all over our kitchen.
+
+[5:59] Yeah so uh I only use them now for cold measuring when you have to see through things but uh yeah they're they're Satan they're the devil and uh they should be taken to task for what they have done to what used to be a fine old brand name. What do you think? Here yeah so anyway so back to the vacuuming so uh you vacuum to speed up the uh the cold blue coffee yes yeah what fresh ground coffee is full of CO2 so you pull that out with the vacuum so that liquid can then enter the grounds fresh ground fresh roasted stale coffee ain't got nothing in it's gotta be pretty stale really you've done the tests on it that's the whole fingers for the whole point on staling right is it get but that's what's like staling presumably as you no longer have a positive pressure of CO2 you get more oxygen in which causes rancidity which is presumably where the cardboard flavor comes from Harold yeah so I mean it has there like like anything else it's probably always CO2 but there's like it probably is one of these I'm making a I'm making a uh a ski jump shape with my hand you know going down like this so it's always some yes but you're probably the most at the at the get go. Like you ever you ever pulled an espresso shot with coffee that you well, you have because you're a roaster. You ever pull espresso shot right after you roast it and you and you get that insane, like insane do you you don't you're not a you hate crema, right, Paul?
+
+[7:13] You're an anti-crema person, aren't you so I love crema. Who's the anti-crema? A lot of people don't like crema. Are you an anti-crema person, Harold? No.
+
+[7:14] You know those people though. Uh no, no. I've never met an anti-crema. Chris Young. Chris Young, anti-cremist.
+
+[7:26] Anti-cremist. Yeah, yeah. Well, because uh a lot of the like uh some of the more bitter compounds are some of the stuff that gets like uh into that emulsion and float up to the top of an espresso thing, right? So I think people are against because uh kind of that and they prefer the flavor of the stuff underneath and we can run some tests next time you're over, I'll get my micropipette and we'll we'll fraction based on height in the in the in the coffee uh right when it's hot, right? We can do this.
+
+[7:48] But uh I think it's slightly different when you use hyper fresh beans. And a lot of people used to tell you not to use hyper fresh beans because uh they didn't like that, that off gas. But I think it tastes good. I like it. So anyway, so then what so then you uh let it sit and then you you strain it, but you use coarse ground coffee.
+
+[8:03] How long does it take you? I use fairly fine ground coffee. I let it sit under vacuum for ten minutes. Uh-huh. Release the vacuum, and then until the spin's all, I have to let it filter for several hours.
+
+[8:15] Like a chump? Yes. You had to let it filter like a chump. Anyway, so what I'm gonna try to do is see whether you see whether you like this. I'm gonna put the coffee into the rotor dry.
+
+[8:24] And then use the force, centrifugal force to like like force the liquid into the into the coffee under pressure, and then see if I can just continuously make it without having to do the vacuum step. And this way the coffee will pre-pack in. I'm a little worried that like in an espresso situation, I'm gonna get channeling and I'll just keep extracting out of the same uh pieces of coffee as I go through. But this is also something that needs to be tested, yeah? Waiting.
+
+[8:47] Yeah. I want to try it. Yeah, all right. Uh or I could just uh, you know, the thing is I would like to do it continuously. I mean, I could just keep doing it in in batches, but I would like to be able to do it continuously.
+
+[8:58] Right. Anyway, okay. What? Pack in the coffee and pre-wet it rather than totally dry. Yeah, no, but I'm I'm more worried about like as the like as water works its way through the coffee, it will be removed, it will be extracting crap from said coffee.
+
+[9:14] As it extracts crap from said coffee, that channel is now easier to extract through and once everything's hydrated and swollen. And so then it seems to me that because water's gonna take the path of least resistance, the same way that when you poorly pack an espresso puck and you get the uh channels around the around the outside, that's gonna have something similar happen in the I don't know, who knows? I'll test. I'll test. I'll have to get a refractometer.
+
+[9:38] Do you have the tables to read coffee off of a regular refractometer off a non non-coffee? No, but I have a coffee refractometer. Wow, wow, wow, very fancy. Call that, I'm super fancy, man. An aristocrat.
+
+[9:48] Did you have to pay for that or did you get that uh uh popular science back in the day? Popular science. Nice. You know what, people? Being a writer is like a good, like a magazine writer.
+
+[9:58] I mean, I guess not any more. Now Webb, good deal, right? For that kind of thing. Extremely for drones and refractometers, if that's what you you know. Yes.
+
+[10:06] Yes. Dave, you want to take a call? Yes, I would love to take a call. Caller, you're on the air. Hello, gentlemen in the software.
+
+[10:13] Hey. How are you guys? Doing well. Great. Um, my question is is there a safe way to cook sunchokes?
+
+[10:24] Uh I have tried cooking them on low temperature, about uh 225 overnight, and I still uh have had bad experience. So I'm wondering is there any uh you know, morally uh consumable way to cook them and to serve them to my guests. You, my friend have called on the right day. Harold wrote a whole chapter in his second book on the uh fat flatulence inducing powers of the sunchoke, and if she wishes to pipe up, Nastasia Lopez purposely poisoned one of her friends with uh undercooked sunchokes uh on purpose. So I will just and by the way, for those of you that don't know, sunchokes, they they in the majority of people, right, Harold?
+
+[11:10] Cause severe gastrointestinal distress if eaten in large quantities. So uh Harold, when you take it away. All right. Well, uh I I'm afraid, at least from my understanding of sunchokes and experience with sunchokes, uh, you can make them less uh difficult, progressively less difficult by cooking them, cooking them, cooking them. But when you do that, they lose texture and they get sweeter, sweeter, sweeter.
+
+[11:35] So they become less themselves and more like uh, I don't know, underground candy or something like that. And it's uh I don't find that particular flavor especially nice when it when it gets to that stage. So I I would say that um, you know, there's the the saying in medicine the do the dose makes the poison. I would I would just uh you know figure out how many slices you can actually take and uh and serve that number. And just uh yeah, I otherwise you're not gonna have the the sun choke experience.
+
+[12:10] Yeah, okay. The good sun chokes experience. So they they mean like the for those of you that don't uh aren't familiar and thought not thinking about sunchokes all the time, the culprit uh in sunchokes is a long-chain uh polysaccharide inulin. Inulin is a um it's actually a a bunch of linked-up fructose molecules. It's long-chain fructose.
+
+[12:29] The other common thing we use that has a lot of lot of inulin is agave so when you long long long long long rose agave you convert the inulin and agave to fructose which is why agave syrup is a high fructose product uh and that is of course the main fermentable or the only fermentable uh in uh tequila and miscal. Uh so yeah if you the more you break it down the sweeter that sucker is gonna gonna get um but so what's your have you tested your dose response relationship Harold with uh sunchokes uh yeah I can I can actually take like uh a a medium sized one or a couple of smaller ones and really not feel it but but also I I don't mind feeling it a little bit because you know it's a way of knowing that you're you're keeping your microbiome happy down there. Well I was gonna ask you is there a difference in different people's so the the reason that it causes all those problems down there is that your body can't digest inulin but the microbes in your gut have no problem digesting inulin and when they do so they produce uh gas and you know that causes uh extreme discomfort especially in some people looking at Nastasia Lopez and I was helping their microbiomes. That's that's not a question uh does this mean that you could actually ferment the sunchokes and ferment out some or of the inulin um that way as a uh a possible um way of of of getting rid of um some of the uh the undigestible? I mean yeast won't eat it, but there's probably a bacterial fermental to it, right?
+
+[14:06] Yeah, yeah, but they're uh they're gonna do uh what cooking would do. They're gonna break down the long chains into small uh molecules and then uh use those for energy. So you're again gonna kind of eat away the structure of the uh of the root and and turn it into something else. I mean, uh it could be really interesting, it could be delicious. Have you tried the sunchope liqueur topenembor?
+
+[14:30] I have not tried it. No, I have not. I have not tried either. Paul, you tried that sucker? No.
+
+[14:34] Where is it from? Uh I don't think it's a European thing. But I don't uh, you know, it that's the French word, right? So I'm assuming it's somewhat it's from a French speaking country, a francophone country. What about one of your enzymes, Dave?
+
+[14:46] Uh I don't have an inulin-breaking enzyme, although we can call uh Gusmer and see what's going on. I I'm worried I have a cellulase enzyme, but I haven't had time to play with it because of all the spinzall stuff I'm doing. I want to try to take the strings out of celery with it well and let it remain crunchy. That's my goal. That's one of my life goals.
+
+[15:00] Uh but um that's why it's called cellulase. Yeah, cellulose. Uh but uh Harold, do you think there's a difference between different so for instance, uh like certain bacteria can ferment and produce gas while the a different group of bacteria can ferment the same product and not produce gas. Is there a difference between different people's microbiome? And so if you consume a lot of something, could you favor a bacteria that maybe doesn't produce as much gas when it's eating it?
+
+[15:23] Like do you're getting some sudden rush from something that can be like, oh man, they take it in and then like that that colony uh uh will get superseded by a different microbe, or is that not possible? No, it I think it is possible, and uh you're reminding me of some research that was done back in the I think it was the nineties, uh, on people's tolerance to beans, which which uh have some of the same problems for the same reasons, indigestible carbohydrates. And I think uh what I recall is that people could with time tolerate more. So uh and that could be one of two different things. It could be uh other microbes getting in on the act and uh using those carbohydrates and not generating gas, or it could be other microbes in the community taking advantage of the gas that's being produced by the microbes that can digest inulin and uh turning that into um something else.
+
+[16:19] So they they could be taking up the hydrogen as soon as it's generated and using it for their own metabolic processes. So I either like whatever the mechanism, there is some sort of gut uh like um uh adaptability to these non-fermentable carbohydrates. So they just go like build your build a tolerance up. Hey, the the awesome thing about building a tolerance up, my friend, is that then you can pull the real Nastat. Nastasia only went halfway.
+
+[16:46] She had a horrible experience with uh sunchokes. She and Piper cooked a boatload of them because they just hadn't thought about it, they hadn't read The Curious Cook Cook, apparently. And uh and they had like a horrible night of gastrointestinal distress because they were they were basically just eating a big pile of cooked sunchokes in sauce, right? Mm-hmm. And then Nastasia invited her friends to a picnic where she served the exact same dish to them, and then just picked around all the sun chokes without like making a big deal about picking around it, and they weren't looking, so and so that that's how she did it.
+
+[17:19] But if she was a real baller, right, if she was really gonna push the envelope of evil, she would slowly, slowly, slowly build up a tolerance to sunchokes, whereby she could eat like a lot of them, and then she could be gustily like forking them into her face, like with with you know, you know, complete lack of concern the entire time, and then and then her friends would be chewing on that stuff, and then they would get wrecked. That's true. Yeah. Then life goal, my friend, right there. It's just uh a thing full of life goals.
+
+[17:47] Brilliant. Yeah. Actually, so I had another uh li by the way, it turns out, did you know this? Uh not all life goals are worthwhile. Is the guy still on the phone?
+
+[17:55] I don't know. I don't know. I think his baby is. Uh nice. Sorry, I uh I I turned out.
+
+[17:59] All right, thanks, guys. Hey, no problem. Uh so the uh I I I achieved a life goal finally, and it was horrible. It was horrible. I may I like so for years I've wanted to make Hugo Hugo de Papas Fritas, like French fry juice.
+
+[18:12] Uh because it's what I used to say to Dax all the time we were joking about 'cause he knows Spanish and I don't, so I would just make up random Spanish words and so that was French fry juice. So I have this new enzyme that allows me to completely like liquefy and then sacrify uh things, these distillers enzymes I'm using, sand extra and termome from Nova Times. And uh so I cooked some French fries. They're pretty good, they were okay. They want my best French fry.
+
+[18:36] I didn't d SPL soaked them, but they were like a real double, you know, triple cook uh fry, good. Uh I ate one, verified, they tasted good. Uh and uh then I blended them with like a little bit of water and some enzymes and uh mashed them out in a in basically like you would for liquor, like li completely liquefied them, they were complete liquid. Uh sweet, sweet, sweet. And then I spun them in the spinzole and I got French fry juice and it was just wretched.
+
+[19:04] It tasted terrible. Was it salted? Uh no. Uh maybe I should have salted, but I just tasted it I was like and you know, much like you know, Harold was saying before, this is just like, you know, like all these years I've been thinking about it, and it just wasn't what I wanted. It just was not good.
+
+[19:19] I mean, maybe if I had had a really high powered centrifuge that I could like can make it totally clear, like, you know, I would need like 40 or 50, I'd probably need like 40,000 G's to really do what I wanted there. But even so, like I wasn't like, you know how like when you're working on something, it's going somewhere and you're like, oh, this is going somewhere. I tasted like this, and I'll be like, I've been wasting my brain power thinking about this. This is like, you know, not I'm not gonna say it's the worst mistake I've made, but it's like, you know, it's not wrong with it. The sweetness?
+
+[19:45] It just tasted, yeah, it was just tasted bad. It just didn't, it wasn't what I wanted to have happen. It wasn't like it was in my mind, I don't even know what I want in my mind. In my mind, I'm eating French fries, and there's some hot like like terrifically refreshing drink that I'm having, and in my mind they combine. The same way that French fries and ice cream combined, right?
+
+[20:02] Like French fries and ice cream are delicious in in combination. Like, have you ever taken like a Sunday and just jammed some French fries into it and eating it? It is good. It tastes good. But like it's good.
+
+[20:12] Uh I mean, take my word for it. But the uh or don't, just go try it. It's it's easily tested uh hypothesis. But the uh yeah, this is just not not good. Because I take, you know, look, how many there I've carbonated so many things.
+
+[20:26] I have a pretty I like I feel at this point I have a pretty good judge of will this carbonate properly. And I just there's just nothing pleasant. It was not like ferment it? I could maybe I could ferment it. French fried beer.
+
+[20:37] But but the problem is that anything that has leftover oil that's left to ferment, that oil is eventually gonna go rancid, especially when there's only a little bit of it there. So maybe what you need to do is make fresh fry uh French fries a la minute and then shake it whatever with whatever you want to. And then get that out. Yeah. Yeah, I'll try that.
+
+[20:53] I'll try that. I once made a French fried booze. It's not really it's not it's not French fried juice unless it's literally the juice of a French fry. It is not Hugo de Papas Fritas, unless it is literally French fried juice. I have made French fry infusions that were okay.
+
+[21:12] Uh but they don't last. They go rancid. You need to do it a la minute. They taste really bad after that. And interestingly, you know that that flavor of old potato?
+
+[21:21] You know that flavor that potato that you had in the fridge and you took it out and you eat it, that nastiness? Yeah. I don't know what causes that. Do you know what causes that or not? I think it's methional.
+
+[21:29] Really? It's uh a sulfur containing aldehyde from methionine, the the amino acid. And that's the flavor of old potato? I think it it's the it's part of the flavor of freshly made potato, but I think it becomes stronger and stronger and and swamps out the the other more delicate ones. Is it is it very volatile?
+
+[21:47] Is that why when you fry a potato that you've had in the fridge it it tastes good? Like is that why you can like refrigerate like like let a fry go cold in between first and second fry, or f or is it do you have to store it frozen? Like if you take a between first and second fry, you can put a fry in the fridge till it gets that nasty texture. Then when you fry it, the crisp fry, then it's good again. Is that because it's volatile and it just gets driven off?
+
+[22:14] Well, I I think probably what's happening is that you're you're driving off maybe an excess of that, and you're also generating all those uh aldehydes from the frying oil, which which are gonna dominate, but they're the the aldehydes from the frying process are um polyunsaturates, so they're really reactive. And I think that's part of the reason maybe that the uh that your experiment didn't work is that they're uh if they're sitting there for any length of time with stuff that can react with them, like proteins in particular, then it it's gonna happen and they're gonna go away. Yeah. All right. Yeah, got another caller with a question for Harold.
+
+[22:52] Good caller, you're on the air. Hi, uh speaking of foods that cause discomfort. Uh this is Jeff, uh this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa. How's it going? Um I I had an experience recently that reminded me of when uh Harold's sense of smell was wiped out for like a month.
+
+[23:12] Uh not not nearly as bad. Um, but for about a week, everything that I ate had a bitter aftertaste. Uh and it made and it made heating very uncomfortable and and yeah, it went into like a mild depression because food was not something I looked forward to. Um so after scouring the internet and my memory to try and think of what I may have done or eaten to cause this. First I just figured I had a brain tumor and my my taste you know receptors are all screwed up.
+
+[23:44] Uh but it it it looks like it was I had been pounding pine nuts. Oh, you ate one. Yeah, but it it had been a couple days since I had eaten a pine nut. Um, but that seems to be the culprit, and I'm wondering if that sounds accurate and why. Our friend Nick Wong got taken out by a pine nut.
+
+[24:05] Yeah, and and uh I think Francis Lamb also got taken out by a pine nut. Or at least had a bitter one, and then and and it it I don't know, I'm not sure it lasted for a week, but uh but he was concerned. So do you know the if you research the uh it's d typically it's one of these kind of like uh very it's kind of a rate, they're always like it's the Chinese pine nuts. But is that actually true? Is there like pine nuts from China?
+
+[24:30] Yeah, no, it's uh it's a particular species of pine from which these particular pine nuts come that uh and they contain apparently naturally some compound that uh that reacts with um our taste buds and gives us that kind of uh bitter uh hangover. And I haven't looked at the literature for a couple of years, but as of a couple of years ago, uh they had no clue what that molecule was and how it acted. So they don't know anything. So like my guess is it locks into your bitter receptors and lets them fire on other things, right? That that would make sense, yeah.
+
+[25:05] Yeah. And maybe what you have to do is uh because our taste cells are constantly being replaced, maybe you just have to get you have to slough those off. Just wait it out before, yeah. So unlike miraculin, which is a temporary bind and gets washed away, or genemic acid, which is a temporary bind and gets washed away, you're saying this might permanently f those uh taste receptors and you have to wait for them to get regenerated, huh? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:29] Yeah. But like I say, I haven't looked at the literature for for a while. So it like jams them open. That's the theory. Or something.
+
+[25:36] Well, I mean, that's that's my theory. It shoves a crowbar into that receptor and keeps it keeps it open all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So Harold, from what you'd read, is it does this affect everybody if if we eat that particular species of pine, or is it only certain people that react this way?
+
+[25:53] Yeah, so uh it's it's one of those subjects where, you know, uh nobody's gonna pay for the research that we would all like to have done on it. So it's it was basically as of a few years ago, mostly anecdotal and uh and really hard to draw firm conclusions about. But you know, because people do vary in their sensitivity to bitter in the first place, my guess is that it probably affects most people that way, but not everybody. And maybe the people that it doesn't uh affect are the people who can't detect bitter in the first place. Right.
+
+[26:27] How much do we know? Advice on avoiding those particular pine nuts. I can identify. Yeah, I mean, uh I've actually seen now in uh in some stores, people will will label they've they've got their Chinese pine nuts for not much, and then their European pine nuts for like five times that that amount. Are uh are American southwestern pine nuts uh commercially available at all or no?
+
+[26:57] Uh I've seen them a couple of times, but but only regionally. You know, I've I've never seen them for sale in uh in a general sort of way. They good? Yeah, yeah. I remember going to the Grand Canyon in the winter once, and uh uh in an area nearby there, there were pine pine cones on the ground, and they'd already been, you know, squirrels had clearly gotten at them or J's or something like that.
+
+[27:23] So we cracked a few open and tasted them and they were good and and there was no hangover. No hangovers. The uh how many times out of a hundred when Nastasia, when we saw new students in the Italian program at the FCI, did they burn those freaking pine nuts? When they a hundred, like ninety-nine point nine times out of a hundred. It's pine nuts of those things.
+
+[27:44] It's a classic thing when you're learning to cook, right? You try to toast the pine nuts, and they go from like zero to ruined like this. It's like you have to have an eagle eye on those pine nuts. Like that's what you should like that's the like, you know, like the you must be able to have the mental ability to keep track of your pine nuts if you're gonna make it in the kitchen. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[28:04] They're like the garlic of the nut world. Yeah, yeah, they're they're gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, oh, you know what a question I had for you, Harold, years ago? I don't think we ever figured it out.
+
+[28:12] You or I don't remember. Is uh why it is that hazelnuts clearly have something in the middle of them that that browns more rapidly than the stuff on the exterior of the nut. That's why the hazelnuts always you can think you haven't over roasted them, and when you crack them open, the interiors are over roasted. Yeah, yeah. What the heck is that?
+
+[28:35] Yeah. I still don't know. I mean, again, one of those questions nobody's gonna pay to do the research, but uh it must be it so the the cool thing about uh one of the many cool things about hazelnuts is that they're hollow on the inside. And I've I thought for a while that maybe it had something to do with that, that there's this uh surface that you don't find in other nuts, and the the part of the hazelnut that isn't surface doesn't get brown as fast as the surface part. So I thought it had something to do with just surfaceness.
+
+[29:06] Uh, but then you know, thought about the thermodynamics of it and decided that probably wasn't correct. So my guess is there's probably some kind of coating of, I don't know, uh like a sugar or something like that. I don't know. Well, okay, so that cavity is the place between the two cody leads, right? Yeah.
+
+[29:25] So i in there, somewhere in there, maybe there's I don't know, that's other stuff is happening, right? Uh yeah. Yeah. So uh uh I I've been thinking this uh not just about hazelnuts, but about things in general. We should we should make a list of interesting questions like that that no one's gonna pay to actually, do the research on and just put them out there so that people who have the resources and curiosity maybe will use their their cool machines to figure out something that you know the professionals never will.
+
+[29:57] Yeah, maybe maybe Ariel and MIT can get on some of these problems. Yeah, you hear that cooking issues people, it's start a list, keep a list generated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[30:05] All right. I like that. There's lots of this is a lot to me, no offense to Air V ATs. Infense, uh offense attent intended, by the way, but like it's more in like these questions that like aren't haven't been answered are somehow more interesting than like kind of the stuff that he runs through. What do you think?
+
+[30:22] Uh yes. Yeah. All right. I wanted to ask on the subject of different people's responses to bitterness. How much do we know not just about quantifying that, but qualitative different types of bitterness?
+
+[30:36] Like for me, I can drink extremely strong coffee and I love it, but even a faintly strong beer is much too bitter for my sensibilities. Yeah, yeah. So one of the interesting things about about taste receptors is that we we we have basically uh one or two for most of the taste modalities except for bitterness, for which we have dozens. And it's probably because there are so the body doesn't really care so much to distinguish between say alkaloids, which are bitter, yeah, and uh you know, hop compounds which are bitter. Uh it just wants you to know that these things are are these complex molecules are there, they're probably not good for you, so pay attention.
+
+[31:22] And so uh we have receptors for all these different uh categories of chemicals, metals and and things like that as well, but they all send basically the same signal, which is bitterness, which is uh just watch out, right? And I think that's what's going on. You've got uh of those dozens of receptors, you've got most of them, but there's one that you have extra copies of, and maybe not enough copies or not as as many copies of uh of the coffee one. Yeah, fascinating. Yeah.
+
+[31:54] All right, let's hit a question we got from Susan. Writing from Switzerland. Love your show, can't figure out from your website if this is the right way. Well, guess it is. Here you are.
+
+[32:02] Uh is there any reason other than the color of the meat for me to use curing salt when making corned beef? Most formulas I find on the internet call for it. I don't care about the color. I'm doing an eight-day brine and plan to sous vide the brisket for 48 hours of 60 C. Thanks, Susan.
+
+[32:17] So that's interesting. I didn't have a chance to research. I don't know if you did, Harold. So, like everyone always says that uh gets the cured color and flavor, but then I wasn't able to find any immediate references on what cured flavor is from a from a relatively quick curing standpoint in nitrates or nitrates. Do you know anything about that?
+
+[32:36] Yeah, I don't know about quick curing, but but uh it's been studied in in longer curing, and I don't uh you know I can't cite chapter and verse about how long, but uh I think it's the case, you know, that uh these molecules are uh they're they contain nitrogen, which is reactive and which is going to react with stuff in the meat uh that uh and produce compounds that you wouldn't have otherwise, and they're antioxidants, and so they're gonna prevent some reactions from taking place that would otherwise. And so they're gonna shift the flavor of the meat uh when it's cooked to to something a little different. Right. I mean I'm sure most of the textural properties are from the salt proper, right? Yeah.
+
+[33:18] And I mean, because it's there in such large quantities and it's affecting all the all the the protein conformation. But yeah, so you so you you think, yeah, reason to use it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can identify cured flavor.
+
+[33:31] Well, but the thing is, have you had a lot of things that are like I've never I've always said, yeah, I mean, like one tastes like one tastes like cooked pork and the other one tastes like cured pork. Yeah, right. I've done 48-hour hams. Well, but in other words, have you ever done side by side one nitrite, one not? Yes.
+
+[33:48] And the result? Cured flavor. It's like a slightly sweet meatiness. It's hard to describe, a little. It's hard to describe.
+
+[34:00] Yeah, exactly. That's the problem. And so, like, you know, for years I just would say cured color and flavor. But like, you can't really describe it, but you know that, and then you say, well, bacon obviously doesn't taste like pork belly. Uh, but then they're like, well, that's because it's been smoked.
+
+[34:14] But like, no, it's not just the smoke. Yeah. It's not just the smoke. You know what I mean? It's yeah, and and I and I also think it's not just one thing, it's preventing some reactions from taking place and encouraging other reactions to take place so that you just shift the center of gravity of the flavor from one area to another.
+
+[34:33] Right. Oh, they're gonna get substantially less oxidation in beef brisket than you will in pork belly. Uh yeah. I'm just saying, like I wonder whether it has a a more profound effect than on um fats that are uh you know more unsaturated, like pork fat versus uh beef, which is uh has you know much more saturated fat base. I'm what I just wonder.
+
+[34:57] I don't know. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like maybe maybe maybe pork is like, you know, it's absolutely necessary to use it because you're actually a lot of uh you're not just creating flavor, but you're, as you say, limiting things. This I'm just talking off the top of my head here, whereas in beef is a much more stable meat in terms of um oxidation. For for the fat part, yes, but um every cell has uh has um uh what are they called?
+
+[35:25] The uh phospholipids. Yes, yes, true in the membranes. And they're and they're always unsaturated to varying degrees. So I think you've always got it, and it doesn't take a lot of uh uh and unsaturated uh lipid oxidation for you to notice it. So I think probably what's going to be important is what's in the membranes and not just what's in the storage fat.
+
+[35:48] Fair enough. Uh here's one I hope you have an answer to because I do not. Uh hello, cooking issues crew. I've been trying to, or maybe Paul's done this, uh, although you're an East Coaster, so I doubt it. Uh I've been trying to find some info on the interwebs regarding uh cooking whole wild abalone in a low temperature setup, so to bypass a tenderization step normally associated with cooking abalone.
+
+[36:06] The few articles that I have found usually deal with the tiny farmed abalone found in live tanks at Asian grocery stores or fish markets. However, these have a far different flavor, texture, and toughness than the wild large red abalone that we harvest here in north uh northern California. The brutal nature of pounding the crap out of these delicious uh sea animals after slicing them very thin to render them tender enough to chew, and the fact that I would like to be able to cut thin, uh thick steaks or cubes or even cook whole and have it be as tender as the aforementioned violently tenderized scalapini of gastropod has me seeking new methods of cooking. I have a commercial vac and a jewel, immersion circulator jewel, uh from uh Chef Steps, our good buddies, uh so ready to go. This is a very rare delicacy for most and not something that they would feel comfortable with, possibly wasting precious, uh precious abalone flesh on trial runs.
+
+[36:52] Perhaps you or someone from the Chef Steps crew have tackled this issue uh as they are up in the Pacific Northwest and have probably cooked abalone's this way before. Any help would be great, thanks, Josh from NorCal. So uh I don't have any experience uh with with um uh you know cooking fresh abalone. Although I had some delicious fresh abalone in China, like really, really good, big, like good and and whole, like and good. I don't know how they did it.
+
+[37:16] And I will just say this I spoke to Grant at Chef's Deps when I was out there a week and a half ago or whatever about his preparation of gooey duck, which was I think one of the greatest gooey ducks I've ever had. And I thought it was just the low temperature cooking that he had used because he used a CVAP to do the low temperature cooking on it, and you guys have actually had I had it with you that night, Harold. We were there the same night, and I think Paul, you had it at some other time. Their gooey duck was great, right? Yes.
+
+[37:39] Uh yeah. So he put it in a vacuum bag and beat the crap out of it. So like I was like, I was like, Wow, and just that low temperature cooking like made it that tender. He's like, that and beating the crap out of it. Uh and I think he used that to just heat it up without actually uh cooking it.
+
+[37:54] I think that was how he did it. He massively tenderized it and then just warmed it rather than cooking it all the way through. But do you have any uh abalone expertise? I looked up high pressure uh uh processing. Most people who tenderize whole abalone, it looks like they either do a very long braise or they pressure cook it.
+
+[38:12] I don't know whether that's helpful. What do you what do you what do you got on this area? Uh well, I mean, he said it, it's a rare delicacy. It's so rare that I've never had it. I've I've had the the farmed abalone, but you know, basically out there, if you're not diving for it yourself or you know someone who's diving for it, you just don't see it.
+
+[38:29] So I have no experience with it whatsoever. But when you're doing that, or like so when you cook octopus for a long time, what's okay, you've done a lot of work on octopus. So let's pretend for a minute that because it's it they probably have fairly similar muscle chemistry, right? I mean, like in terms of like what makes them one's obviously much tougher. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:02] I mean, I so I have worked with the the little ones, and uh their meat is just so different from from octopus that uh uh you know I'm not sure that the the information is transferable. Uh but I I mean so what I would try and this is another example of something, no one's gonna pay to do it, so somebody do it and then let the rest of us know about it. Well uh let's put it this way do you like pressure cooked octopus or no? Um yeah, it's it's okay. It's okay.
+
+[39:33] You don't think it's mushy? Uh depends on I mean that's the problem. It depends on how long it's been done. Um what's your go-to octopus? Uh long long and slow.
+
+[39:46] Yeah. Yeah. See, I think bagging the abalone and then figuring out what time temperature thing, but the it again here's my thing, right? So the farmed one is gonna be different from the wild one, right? Different species of uh uh what is it, Haliotis, right?
+
+[40:03] Uh different species, uh different size, different age. Um but if you figure out how to cook the cheap one and make it tender, it seems like you then could limit the number of trials you have to pull with the real deal, right? I mean I would bet some form of uh bagging it. I mean, uh I looked up people pressure cooking it and they seem to enjoy pressure cooking it whole. But then you mean it's gonna be pressure cooked.
+
+[40:31] It's not gonna be and it by the way, w I I'm not a huge fan in general of using uh protease enzymes on meat. Are you, Harold? No. No, yeah. But like but is it mainly because they get mushy on the surface, but the interior's not fixed?
+
+[40:49] Yeah. I'm wondering in an abalone, because of the structure of uh the meat uh and the fibers in it, whether or not you could do a quick uh basically make a uh uh an enzyme solution and vacuum infuse it into the entire thing and then have the tenderization happen throughout or even use uh high pressure in like an EC or something and force the enzyme into the meat structure under pressure. That's actually probably worked better. And then um, in fact uh when you open that and it foams back out again, you'll also tenderized by internally ripping the animal apart as the uh bubbles come out. I'm wondering whether that might be a decent uh uh approach uh if it's quick.
+
+[41:30] I mean it's these long soaks in things that mushify the outside, that's what makes it awful, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and maybe doing what you just said, but after a preliminary pounding to kind of loosen things up to begin with. Right, and then maybe I don't know. Um Nastasia, did you find that question?
+
+[41:50] All right, why don't you read it for me? Okay. This is a question we had a couple of weeks ago that I missed on uh coconut uh fat. Okay, so hi Dave Nassia, David and Guests. Many things, many thanks for answering my question on plug and play PID controllers or freezers.
+
+[42:05] Okay. Read it with feeling, Nastasia. Typically in the UK, canned coconut milk is between 16 to 18% fat content and stabilized with guargum. I've used this both directly in shaking drinks and made a syrup with equal parts by weight of coconut milk and sugar and other versions where I'll I've diluted the coconut milk with, say, a further 25% by volume with water before adding equal weight of sugar. Can I just get to the question?
+
+[42:29] Okay. Do you have any pointers for making or using coconut milk where the flocculating slash falling out of emulsion can be avoided? Okay, so you have hit a very hard problem. Years ago, I spoke with Scott Riefler, who's uh the head of uh of Tick Gums out on the West Coast, and this is a known problem. Coconut fat, suspending coconut fat in a liquid is a known difficult uh problem.
+
+[42:56] You have any experience with this, uh Harold? I don't. No. Yeah. Known difficult problem.
+
+[43:00] And the reason is is it's hard. Coconut fat is hard. You know what I mean? And uh I mean literally hard, not difficult, like literally hard, and uh hard to suspend. So uh if you it when people are using coconut in beverages, right?
+
+[43:13] Uh so the stuff that they make, coconut milk that they make that they stabilize is fine for soups uh where you're gonna stir it, and typically, and those are stabilized, I think you're right, with guar and other things. But for the beverage application, which are going to be served cold, right? Uh it's a much more difficult problem to keep the fat emulsified uh and not stop it from flocking together when it's cold. Uh and so for that you need to turn to a product we have here named after Nastasia, the Coco Lopez coconut cream. But the problem with Coco Lopez coconut cream is it's extremely sweet, right?
+
+[43:45] Now, if you want to see just how difficult it is to keep that stuff emulsified in your pina colada, and why, basically, unless you use a lot of fancy techniques, you really need to go buy the Coco Lopez. I will read to you the ingredient lists of Coco Coco Lopez. Coconut milk. All right, sugar, water, polysorbate 60, sorbitan monosterate, prop salt, propylene glycol alginate, mono and diglycerides, citric acid for acidity, guar gum, and locust bean gum. So what you have here is it just like it's like they took they took the biggest elephant gun they could get, shoved it full of a mass of thickeners, uh stabilizers, because PGA is an emulsifier and a thickener slash stabilizer, and actual emulsifiers, most of which are based on steeric acid, uh, you know, which is you know gonna work in these applications.
+
+[44:39] Then we're like and they blew it into this thing. This thing is like the most stabilized commodity like on earth. And let me tell you something about industry. Industry is not about adding a bunch of crap that they don't need. So it like chefs, right?
+
+[44:55] Chefs, when a chef comes up with a recipe and they've used 18,000 thickeners, right, but they've gone through like five days of figuring out what's going on, and they finally find the recipe that works. You know what they don't do? They don't go back and one by one yank the things they put into it out to see whether they actually need it, right? Like they don't. So they write the recipe with that huge like poop spray of ingredients in it, and then eventually some knucklehead forgets to put it in and was like, Chef, I forgot to put it in.
+
+[45:23] And then they go taste it and they're like, hey, it's still good, don't put it in anymore. Right? That's how it works. Right. And so, uh, especially because these ingredients have a relatively low cost of use relative to the rest of the food you're buying in a restaurant, right?
+
+[45:34] So chef's recipes very, very rarely get changed after they're made. Um that's not the way it works in industry. Like, seriously, like the price of PGA goes up by a nickel, and all of a sudden everyone nukes PGA from their uh that's propylene glycolalginate. This actually happened. Uh nukes PGA from their formulation so they can use something else that has a lower cost in use because it's millions of dollars at stake.
+
+[45:58] So uh the fact that the Coco Lopez Corporation uses such a large uh you know uh wealth of uh stabilizers and thickeners means they need it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, my phone's being.
+
+[46:14] I'm gonna wrap up in a minute, Dave. All right, so uh I'll read this here. Uh so Ken Ingber, longtime uh listener for where's Boston, right? Yep. Boston town.
+
+[46:21] Uh where are you not going to Boston? You're not doing the end of the Harvard this year. Uh did that last week. How was it? Last week.
+
+[46:27] It was good. It was good. Any good projects? Uh there were some fun ones. Uh transparent potato chips.
+
+[46:33] Uh how transparent? Uh transparent, transparent. And crispy? Um that a little too uh hard rather than crispy. So it needs some work.
+
+[46:45] Needs some work. So how did they make them transparent? Uh they boiled potatoes in water to make a potato flavored uh liquid and then added potato starch. Uh uh. So they're not they're measured breaking forces and things like that.
+
+[47:01] Yeah. Yeah. Taste good? Uh yeah. Yeah.
+
+[47:04] Yeah. Like a potato chip? Um like uh like a Pringles. Ooh, so not like a potato. Right.
+
+[47:11] Like a potato. All right. Uh wait, before I say it, what you do you have you had a real Maui potato chip, kettle cooked, hand kettle cooked in from Maui? Uh, yes. Yes.
+
+[47:19] They are enjoyable. Yeah, they're delicious. Yes. Uh, I've stumbled across an old episode of Kenningburner in 2011, in which Dave mentioned the Canadian centrifuge. It was originally known as the Cirval S SS one.
+
+[47:29] That's the Danger fuge for all you uh who are keeping track. And I wondered if years later, maybe some c subconsciously, they could have figured into naming the Searsol, and more closely related but apparently safer, Spinzall. Good luck. He gives us good luck. Uh when I was a kid, my dentist used to make his own amalgam for fillings.
+
+[47:43] Remember, Amalgam used to have uh mercury in it. Yep. Using a tabletop centrifuge with two or four test tube-like vessels that spun without a housing. Occasionally the vessel would uh let go and fly into a wall. My analytic faculties and legal training, still embryonic at that time, were sufficient to lead me to believe that this was pretty dangerous.
+
+[47:58] And not much later in life, I wondered if Dr. Roskin became as mad as a hatter as a result. Best regards, Ken. All right, well, listen, Harold, thanks for coming over. You uh you know, you should always be on the East Coast.
+
+[48:08] You should come back to the East Coast. You know, you love it too much in San Francisco. You're too much of a San Francisco man. Nastasia, anti-San Francisco. Yeah.
+
+[48:16] Uh but anyway, actually, I had a good time. Yeah, you you too, me too. Yeah. All right, all right. Uh come back anytime.
+
+[48:21] Paul, thanks for coming. This has been Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[48:45] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[49:12] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at Green Markets. For more information, visit Christmastrees NY.org. Hey everyone. This is David Tatashore, lead engineer and studio manager of the Heritage Radio Network. And I'm reaching out to ask for your support during our end of year fun drive.
+
+[0:27] A contribution in any amount supports our weekly programming and our mission to make the world a more equitable, sustainable, and delicious place. Plus, you'll receive exclusive member benefits like monthly playlists, discounted event tickets, party invitations, and more. So if you like good food and you love good food radio, throw a little dough our way. Make your gift at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. Happy holidays from all of us here at Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:08] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Hurl, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly twelve to roughly twelve forty five or one o'clock. Uh Heritage Pizza Heritage Pizzeria, yeah. Kind of a Heritage Pizzeria. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:25] Welcome to the Christmas day, yeah, Christmas. Any holiday, really. I mean, you and I happen to be uh Christmas folk, but any you know any holiday of your choice, happy uh yeah Hanukkah starts on the same day as Christmas Eve. Come on, it's so late. That's unusual, right?
+
+[1:40] Why is it so dang late? Oh no. We need to synchronize these things. We did. It is.
+
+[1:46] Semi-synchronized. No gods, no religion. Wow. Wow. This is not a uh, you know.
+
+[1:53] This is not that kind of a show, Dave. All right, sorry about that. That kind of show. Sorry for going off the handle. All right, so uh anyway, uh calling your questions to a 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:03] That's 718-497-2128. Um cooking, not really, you know, not cooking related. Yeah, this is we do not have Harold McGee uh today. Booker is calling me on my phone. Uh I don't know.
+
+[2:17] We like he's well maybe so through. Well, all right. Let's see if he home or is he out of the room? No, he's doing he's doing this thing called rail fanning. Hold a second.
+
+[2:26] He's gonna get mad at me if I actually put him on the line. Is that some kind of extreme sport? What is that? Uh kind of. It's uh it's these people, uh, my son included, who love uh riding on the trains.
+
+[2:39] That's and that's really all they care to do is ride on the trains. Let's see what let's see what he has to say here. Yeah, I like Yeah, maybe whatever it was is not important anymore. He found his train. He found his train.
+
+[2:58] He's usually just calling me to Hi Dan. Hey Booker, uh, what's up? I'm on the radio show right now. What do you need? I'm on my way back home now.
+
+[3:06] Okay. I'll see you in a little bit. Court square, yes. Did you have a good rail fanning trip? Yep, I'm coming back home now.
+
+[3:14] Bye. But people, listen. I know I'm in the middle of a radio program here, but when your son calls you and he's like twice, and he's out, you know, by himself on the subway system, you take the call. Am I wrong about this nostalgia? You're right.
+
+[3:28] Wait, are these older people that go on the thing with him? Are they younger? Okay, so if you want to see what the rail fanning crew looks like, uh I think you actually you might have missed your opportunity this year. Have you been on the holiday train? So one of the fun things to do uh in New York City uh during the holiday season is every Sunday, they won't do it this time because it's Christmas, they run antique trains on from 2nd Avenue to Queen's Plaza along the F line.
+
+[3:54] Um so you can ride it, and like it's it's there's exactly two kinds of people on that train. Have we talked about this already? There's two kinds of people on that train. There are like the people who are dressed up in fake 40s and 30s clothes, taking pictures of themselves, and then there's hardcore rail fanners. And those two groups of people could not be any more different.
+
+[4:18] The hardcore rail fanners like typically are wearing some sort of like railroad phenalia. You know what I mean? Some sort of like, you know, 207th Street uh track workers thing or whatever. You know what I mean? Some sort of like my son Booker has a baseball cap with every pin of every subway train on it.
+
+[4:38] I think he's missing one anyway. So yeah, it's uh it's an interesting cross section of New York, and it's just the cost of a subway ride. It's all it takes. Um, let's get some uh get some questions. Do you uh make anything good this week, Nastasia?
+
+[4:54] No. What about for your holiday party? What'd you cook? Um I made pasta and salad like I usually do. Whoa, happy freaking Christmas.
+
+[5:02] Pasta and salad. Pastas, what what kind of pasta did you make? Uh pesto, because there was a vegetarian. Peter's wife. And she's vegetarian?
+
+[5:11] Yeah. Peter Kim, Museum of Food and Drink. Wife is a vegetarian. Same. She's French.
+
+[5:16] She's vegetarian. Yeah. Like vegetables only. Yeah. No fish.
+
+[5:21] I don't know about fish. I'm sure she eats fish. Didn't Thanksgiving two years ago, didn't they bring some sort of like meat stew, some sort of southern meat stew? No, that was an Ethiopian meat stew, right? No, it was Southern French.
+
+[5:33] You can't tell the difference between Ethiopian and Southern French. Anyway, point being that uh did she just suddenly become a No. I've known her for we've known her. She's always been a vegetarian. No chicken, no fish.
+
+[5:47] Not as far as I know. So you made pesto for Christmas. Because basil, nothing's more in season than basil this time of year. Uh ragu. Like a meat ragu.
+
+[5:58] I thought you said she we were cooking vegetarian. Two different types. No, you see, you're basically you're just saying that you cheaped out and you made pasta. Yeah. Because it's cheap.
+
+[6:06] Like it's cheap. But not because of a vegetarian that was there. You choose pasta because of vegetarian. No, no, no, but I couldn't serve the ragu to everyone, so I had to make a pesto too. No, so it's a secondary fact.
+
+[6:16] Like the vegetarianism isn't the reason that you had pasta for your Christmas party. No, that's because it's cheap. Do you ever do the uh in your family? Uh did you ever do the meatless Christmas Eve or is that Italian only? We did the meatless Good Friday, not Christmas Eve.
+
+[6:31] Meatless Christmas Eve? You mean seven fishes? Is that how many fishes? Yeah, that's what my family does. Why seven?
+
+[6:37] Is that like a Bible thing? Uh probably, yeah. I mean, it's just one of those days that you're not supposed to be eating meat back in the day, Italian style. You know what I mean? So we eat a ton of fish instead.
+
+[6:46] What do you what do you is your family do the baccala? Oh yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah? Yeah. How do they make it?
+
+[6:52] Um so we soak it for a few days, and then uh my grandmother cooks it with uh marinara sauce, onions. Um it's delicious. It's the best. That's your favorite, huh? It's my favorite.
+
+[7:03] Let me ask you a question. Have you ever spilled the soaking water all into the laundry hamper? Uh no. I have. The salt water?
+
+[7:12] Yeah. Yeah, because we used to soak it downstairs. Like we had like a you know how like you know, like you know you've made it, your family's made it when you get that second fridge downstairs. It's like you have the fridge in the kitchen, but then you have that second fridge downstairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:24] So my mom used to soak the baccala in the second in like right next to the second fridge downstairs. Yeah. And she had it out, because I guess she was gonna change it, and I dumped this is like I was in, I don't know, junior high or high school, I dumped the entire water thing into like the clean laundry basket. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[7:50] Yeah, yeah. I mean, like this is how it works. You know what I mean? It's like uh man, that was a nightmare. That stuff stank.
+
+[7:56] Oh my god, did it stink. You know what the worst thing is? Is uh when so you take all this time soaking it, and if you let it come up to temperature even too high, you let it boil even a little bit and the baccala goes hard. Do you hate that? Yeah, well so I I actually don't like it to soak too long because I love the saltiness of it.
+
+[8:12] I like when it has that that tang. Yeah, but okay, so another thing people might not know bakalah, by the way, like uh is the dried uh salt white fish. Use typically, you know, the high rent stuff's cod, but now they use pollock or whatever they whatever they have. So we get the cod. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:27] Well you get high rent. Yeah, you have to. Hey, hey. Yeah, the thick stuff is expensive. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:33] But uh a lot of people find it uh r you know somewhat challenging. It takes a long time to cook. What is delicious though, and can be done right away, is if you buy the cheaper stuff, right? Uh and it's is is uh is you just basically you um it's thin, so it it rehydrates and soaks out really quickly. Just like bring uh a large pot of water up to uh a simmer, turn it off, throw it in, right?
+
+[9:00] Uh this is not bacalada, but this with this fish, like throw it in, and then um like do that like once or twice to your taste. Then like basically shred it and then make uh like a a mashed potato, right? Almost like a brand and you mix it in with that. Delicious. Like delicious.
+
+[9:18] You can also make it with uh actual mashed yams, then it becomes closer to like a Trinidad tobacco kind of thing, but like salt fish and uh and like smashed traditional yams or even like potatoes, more of a brandade style. Delicious and easy way to get into it. My other favorite way, Nastasia. Did your family ever eat salt cotta in any form? No.
+
+[9:37] Did you ever go uh out like to restaurants and get it? Bacaladitos? No. God. That's another really good way to have uh salt cup.
+
+[9:48] Anyway, so you're not supposed to have meat, so we used to have the baccala. We would always have some form of uh octopus, and we would always have, and this would maybe think of it, the pasta with the anchovies. Dave, you ever do that one? Uh no, we do uh the anchovies with the Savoy cabbage. Oh, I haven't had that one.
+
+[10:03] Do you like that? Oh, I love it. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. And they get they they just melt in the cabbage.
+
+[10:08] You can't even see them anymore, but the flavor is there. Yeah, but we used to do the we would do the we would do the uh the anchovy pasta, but the trick with the anchovy pasta is not only you're not supposed to have meat, you're also not supposed to have really dairy on this night, right? So it's it's a fish only, like it's similar to Lent, right? So we would do bread crumbs instead of the cheese. You ever do that one, Stas?
+
+[10:29] Yeah, you gotta get the fun. You've never done breadcrumbs on pasta? Yeah. But not this thing you're talking about. Which well, what thing is?
+
+[10:36] But the anchovy pasta. I don't know what that is. You well, instead of cheese, like for like texture and to soak up extra stuff, you put breadcrumbs on top, and actually it's really good. Like breadcrumbs on top of pasta sounds stupid, like starch on starch. It's good.
+
+[10:49] It's really good. I never heard this thing about no cheese, but now that I think about it, there isn't really any cheese in this meal. That's because, yeah, all the recipes are designed to not have cheese. You forget that it was a religious injunction against having um many, it wasn't just Lent and Fridays. It was like Christmas Eve, uh, and not only no meat, no dairy, typically no egg, uh, because these are all like Lenten fast rules built around kind of religious strictures from Obama Lages.
+
+[11:17] Well, you know, some really good, really good cuisine. Why do you think it is does anyone really think for even one second that the reason that Italian fish dishes don't contain cheese is because cheese and fish don't taste good together. Anyone that's had a fried fish sandwich with melted American cheese on it knows that cheese tastes good with uh fish, right? I mean, uh anyone that's had shrimp and grits realizes that shrimp and cheese and grits and bacon are all on friendly first name basis with each other. It's that all of the fish dishes from the Italian repertoire are designed to be eaten on fast days where you're not consuming dairy.
+
+[11:58] That's why you don't get kind of real you know, creamy fish sauces. That's why you don't get um you don't get cheese on your on your fish sauce. That's why. Fact, history fact for you folk. Uh was that a call, Dave coming in?
+
+[12:11] There is a call. Caller, you were on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh Matt and Mystic. How are you doing? How are you doing?
+
+[12:19] Um, so we have a little holiday party coming up. And uh I'm gonna make a festive sparkling drink. And I was thinking about doing like a carbonated French 75. Nice. Since it's already semi-carbonated anyway, right?
+
+[12:32] Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking um but I was wondering if I could use like a sweeter sparkling wine, like an ASPI instead of like sort of skipping the skipping the simple syrup and doing like an ASCII. I like how you're doing it with the full like kind of like East Coast Boston Italian pronunciation, the Asti Spumanti. Yeah, or you know like Jersey Yeah yeah yeah.
+
+[12:51] Uh yeah I mean I don't see why not you might have to adjust the other stuff but I don't see why you couldn't do it. Um when you're when you're gonna um let me see what do you know what what uh what recipe you're gonna use for it what the build is I don't actually I was going to look in uh liquid intelligence and see what you called for but I think I have that recipe in there. It it the one of the things is is uh one of the re i I can't remember because it's been such a long time if I don't have the recipe it's because it didn't fit my normal analysis uh methods because it's got the added uh champagne afterwards and so um what happens with the added champagne is uh it didn't fit into any one of my kind of uh normal dilution equations because it has like post-dilution afterwards and so I can't remember whether I made an exception to it and tried to fit it into like one of the standard kind of um drink categories that uh that I did because I I didn't go into a full on analysis uh of that style. So I don't know but I mean but it it is a uh obviously a delicious drink. If you're going to do an actual force carbonated version are you gonna uh are you gonna clarify the citrus or no?
+
+[14:00] Uh I was gonna do like a lemon acid with uh citric acid. I would instead, since there's uh you're not gonna have that much probably acid in each cocktail, depending on how you balance it out. I might I might just carbonate it all and and you could basically pre-batch that stuff and then I would um just add a little bit of the fresh at the end. Unless you want be able peep people to be able to pour it from the bottle like themselves. It everything depends on what what you're gonna do.
+
+[14:27] If you're gonna use straight acid, I mean like for a drink like that, if you're gonna use straight acid, I would also use a little peel to kind of like brighten it up a little bit. Um but uh you know, give it a test, but that should be uh delicious. And and you know, what uh what I can do is I can have my family, uh entire family come by your house in Mystic on Christmas Eve, because I'll be there. And and we'll just you know, we'll berate you as an enemy of quality if we find that the cocktail is not up to uh snuff. What do you think?
+
+[14:56] That sounds good. It's uh 60 Washington Street. Right up the street from the liquor store. So uh wait, down by where the AMP the old AMP liquor store? Yeah.
+
+[15:06] On the other well, you're on the other side of the bridge, man. What if the bridge is up? I could be hours on Christmas Eve before I get back to the house. Has anyone seen the bridge? The brid so in the in the middle of Mystic is this thing called like the Mystic I don't know what a bascule is, but it's a bascule bridge and the the people in Mystic, they love this freaking bridge.
+
+[15:24] They every couple of years they raise you know eight jillion dollars so they can repaint it. You know what I mean? And uh what happens is is that is that the two sides of Mystic are separated by this drawbridge and all it takes is like one knucklehead with you with a boat that's too tall and a horn and that traffic's tied up forever in the middle of town. You know what I mean? Anyway.
+
+[15:45] Anyway. Well, maybe, I don't know. Depends. I mean, we'll be down in town. We'll be walking around on the Christmas Eve, depending.
+
+[15:51] It's gonna be crappy weather though, I think. Yeah, I don't know what the weather's gonna be. The party's Friday, so if you're around and you want to come, you know, I'll hit you up on the Twitter. Oh, yeah, hit me up. I might actually still be down in Chester on the Friday because believe this or not, this New York City schools are running on Friday.
+
+[16:06] I know. And then like they didn't even cancel after school programs. So Dax has basketball freaking practice. So stupid. Anyway, let us if I if I don't make it, let us know how the cocktail is.
+
+[16:19] Oh Nastasia, pump it. You're the pumpkin. We made our shirts finally. Yeah, enemy of quality shirts. So go online and look up well, just go to Booker and Dax.com.
+
+[16:28] Slash Enemy Equality. Slash Enemy of Quality. And you can see Nastasia and myself, uh, the queen and kings of uh anti quality. Uh you want to take another call? Yeah, sure.
+
+[16:39] Call her. You're on the air. Uh yeah, hi Dave. Uh, Merry Christmas. Happy Christmas, Hanaquanza, whatever we call it now.
+
+[16:47] Oh, nice. Um, I had a uh question about brazing. Okay. Um, in lots of different recipes from all over, there's different temperatures for brazing. And some of them and some people prefer lower temperature brazing, like 200 to 225 degrees versus 350 degrees.
+
+[17:07] Right. Um since the temperature of the liquid inside the braze can't get above the boiling point, is it beneficial or not to do a lower temperature braze or a higher temperature braze? And does it does the food really interact that much with the radiant heat difference? Uh like I think a lot's gonna depend on exactly how you um how how the whole thing's configured, right? So, like if you have a uh a brazing vessel in an oven and the vessel is sealed, then uh anything, in other words, like the lid's on it or it's got foil on top of it.
+
+[17:44] Uh any temperature in the oven, uh, assuming the oven is accurate, above 212 degrees uh Fahrenheit is going to cause the liquid and eventually the meat and or vegetables inside to reach 212 Fahrenheit because there'll be no evaporative cooling. If you remove the lid or allow there to be evaporation, uh, you know, and they're there are in between zones, right? Levels of amounts of evaporation, then uh the meat and the product will evaporatively cool itself, and so it will not uh typically reach boiling temperature uh unless the heat input into the product is so high that the entire thing can uh actually reach the boiling point. Now, uh meat will never ha reach uh the boiling point until the surface dries out and there's no longer evaporative cooling at the surface. However, the parts of the meat that are underneath the liquid um can reach those temperatures if you're in uh a hot, hot oven.
+
+[18:52] So higher temperatures, like you know, 350, 360, can be enough to overcome some of the evaporative cooling effects and push uh the surfaces of meat up above those kinds of temperatures, uh whereas lower temperatures in the 200s don't, because you're never gonna overcome um the kind of evaporative cooling effect to get the full drying and crust formation on the top of the meat. So um, I mean I don't know if I'm an answering the the the question. I would say that the those lower numbers are um you know safer in terms of like if a piece of meat's poking out it's gonna stay more brazed and not kind of crust over as much. You're not going to get above that above that level. But then uh you know you might be in a situation where your heat input is not necessarily fast enough and it just takes a lot longer for you to get um your brace done.
+
+[19:45] That said I really don't think it's gonna make too much of a difference. I think your main difference is going to be if you seal it or if you don't if you don't seal it the difference between a 250 and a 325 is going to be kind of minimal I think it might just take a little longer one way or the other because it's going to go above 212. You know all of the interesting stuff happen what happens once there's evaporative cooling. Sure. No I was uh kind of going along with that is it's also interesting to see how fast how how fast does collagen and other kind of tissue break down is that just the result of the time and the temperature or actually a higher temperature has the result of doing that faster if it's sealed per se and you don't really care about the the the meat being exposed above the liquid let's say and you don't care about that.
+
+[20:33] But just breaking down connective tissue and collagen. Yeah so the the hotter it is the faster it'll happen. It it it like all other things equal right so assuming you have the same um so to to convert collagen uh to gelatin requires uh heat time uh and uh moisture right so like obviously it's hard to break down collagen in beef jerky uh because there's no moisture there. You know what I mean? So it's uh it's it's like a combination kind of uh of uh of all those things.
+
+[21:08] Typically there's enough moisture in meat uh to have it happen, uh, but then you're you're looking at um uh and also moisture is being released from the meat as it heats. So there might there might be some effect uh in in higher temperature situations as opposed to like sub sub boiling temperatures where there might be so in other words, like take a look when you're doing low temperature work, like let's say you were gonna do a a short rib, let's say for like three days, and you're gonna cook it at um like fifty-five, fifty-six uh Celsius, which is you know down in the kind of meat media high medium rare range, uh or medium rare range. So if you're gonna cook down there, uh the connective tissue never breaks down. Now, uh I mean it breaks down, it gets soft, but it doesn't kind of melt out. And so I I don't I'm I'm actually researching this now, I shouldn't talk about it, but the next book's gonna be on low temperature cooking um for probably for more home applications.
+
+[22:05] Uh not probably, it's gonna be on low temperature cooking uh in home applications. Uh but the um one of the interesting things is that the texture of meat in those situations kind of stays the same uh structurally, even though it gets uh softer and softer. And so it's probably some combination of um the collagen not maybe breaking down as much because there's not as much moisture release because the meat doesn't squeeze out all of its juices as much because you didn't overcook the meat, right? Uh which kind of how you say is is a nice thing to have if that's what you want to have. It's a lot of stuff for low temperature cooking that people are saying, well, this is at this higher temperature, this is like a freeze, but it isn't exactly the same thing because it's not high enough to actually constrict that meat tissue and melt all that collagen.
+
+[22:53] It's just softening it and breaking it down. Right. It doesn't actually it doesn't actually render it uh in the same way. The fat doesn't render out. You know, the gelatin the gelatin doesn't suffuse the entire uh piece of meat.
+
+[23:05] And in fact, if what you want is a traditional braise and that you go in and expecting a traditional braise, in general, most people don't want the low temperature product in that case. In that case. So what's like the temperature that that sort of stuff refuses and melts out. Well, that's an interesting question. I'll probably have to do some research on that.
+
+[23:27] Um, but in general, um in in my head, right, there is such a time penalty for doing uh long-term low temperature work that roughly any time I go above like sixty uh four or sixty-five cell Celsius, uh I'm just like to hell with it. And I go all the way up into the eighties. So when you're in the eighties, right, you don't have to worry about overcooking things. You also your water bath isn't boiling over a lot, makes it convenient. You see, if you're actually doing uh bag work uh in boiling water, it can be a pain in the butt because the bags can touch the sides of your um I think melt and and and you get like really fast evaporation at boiling, you have to replenish your water constantly.
+
+[24:15] So typically, like when I want a traditional high temperature um texture for something like a confit, um, which I like doing in bags a lot because it's easier to store, uh, you know, it they last a lot longer. Um it's uh you know a lot uh you don't have to have that kind of excess of liquid or fat. You can do, you know, with very little amount of uh fat and or liquid in the braise. Uh it's not quite the same because you don't get any evaporation, but um I do those in the in the eighties because I want that traditional texture. And once you're up like eighty-two, eighty-three, you know, you're gonna start you know, you're gonna get those kind of traditional textures.
+
+[24:51] Very cool. I appreciate it. All right, cool. Uh okay. Let me see.
+
+[24:55] We had a comment in Nastasia about our pine nut conversation from Carlos. Uh I want to start by thanking you guys for the hours of uh edutainment on the show. Show actually makes me look forward to my commute, doubly so and Mr. McGee drops by. We love having the Harold.
+
+[25:11] Like having the Harold. Also, he knows all this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, good man. Uh I was very relieved when you mentioned that the taste bud blowout pine nuts are a specific Chinese nut.
+
+[25:22] Uh in New Mexico, we eat pine nuts like crazy, pretty much year-round. But especially so in the winter months. We eat roasted salted pine nuts in a similar fashion to sunflower seeds. Pop a handful in your mouth, one by one, crack the shell and enjoy the nut and spit out the shell and repeat. Do you what do you ever see people like eating the sunflower seeds sitting there spitting the in the subway?
+
+[25:40] In the subway? Oh my god. People, people, geez Louise. Constant assault in the excess. It's just you know, it's like why would you think that that's okay to sit there and spray shells out of your mouth on the freaking subway?
+
+[25:56] Why would you think that's okay? We're living in a society. Yeah, you don't do that kind of crap, right? Okay, let me ask you a question, because my family, people in my family are on the other side of this from me. Okay, so are you guys familiar I don't like uh okay, remember, I'm a wasp.
+
+[26:14] I'm a forty, what am I, five-year-old wasp, okay? Okay. Uh now, just bear that in mind. So, like, I don't like kind of like I don't like dueling music. I don't like hearing two different stereos at the same time.
+
+[26:28] Bothers me. And it bothers me in like public situations where I have to listen to somebody else's music. Because I mean, like, odds are like if I was listening to my house, I would probably like it because I like all forms of music. But it's just kind of like, why do I have to listen to this guy's music for? You know what I'm saying, Stas?
+
+[26:45] Are you the same way? Mm-hmm. Because why? Because I feel like, you know, I don't get to go over there and like I don't know, harangue them. Yeah.
+
+[26:54] Maybe your presence just harangues them and you don't know it though. Well, I'm sure my presence harangues them, but that's whole that's the whole bargain you live make for living in New York City. Anyway, that's not my point. So my point is is that there's these like the new thing is bicyclers have like uh boom boxes, but they're these new mini boom boxes, like the new Bluetooth things, and they strap them to their personage to their bicycles. And they zip around the town playing loud music on their bicycles, right?
+
+[27:21] Now, the reason is that they want you to know that they are coming so that you don't hit them and or walk out in front of them, which I totally understand because how many times have you had some idiot walk in front of you when you're riding a bike? They walk they they're they look the wrong freaking way and they step right into a freaking bike lane, and then you're the bad person because you slammed into an 80-year-old lady. Yeah. Is it your fault? No.
+
+[27:48] Anyway, like but like my point is, is it so where do you where do you feel about the music blaring on the bicycle? Uh I've only heard like old school RB on the bike. My brother my brother has James Brown going a hundred percent of the time. Good. Dave, what do you what do you think about the bicycle music?
+
+[28:05] I think that's fine. It's it it's more like when it's in an enclosed space, like a subway car that it bothers me. But out on the street is whatever. What are your thoughts about those idiots who uh they invest in a giant stereo for their car, but they don't invest in enough automotive adhesive to glue all the parts of their trunk down, and so their entire car sounds like it's rattling itself to pieces when the bass drum hits and they can't hear it because it's so loud, their hearing is so distorted out on the inside of the car that they don't know that their that their car sounds like a baby rattle. Yeah, I mean I mean enemies of quality, what else can you say?
+
+[28:38] That's right. If you're gonna play music that loud, which I endorse heartily, then you know, have the decency to have some, you know, uh quality stereo work done on your vehicle, no? Anyways. Um speaking of James Brown, I had a request to do some James Brown. Uh but I'm not I do own James Brown's Christmas album on on uh not on vinyl, I wish I owned it on vinyl, I own it on a cassette.
+
+[29:01] Before I finish the pine nut thing, Nastasi, what are your favorite Christmas girls? Oh, uh I can't uh I like the temptations read off the red nose reindeer. Really? Yeah. Really?
+
+[29:11] Because of the bass guy who comes in? Yeah. Well I forget what part he has. It's pretty awesome. Uh yeah.
+
+[29:15] I don't know. I I listened to it just the other day. Dave, you? Uh Donnie Hathaway this Christmas. Yeah?
+
+[29:22] Yeah. Okay, here's what I like. I like uh I like Mahalia Jackson's Hark the Herald Angel sing, because Mahalia Jackson knows how to like belt some crap out. You know what I mean? First of all, let's just stipulate Nastasi.
+
+[29:34] The entire the entire Andrew Sisters, the entire Andrew Sisters Bing Crosby album is like as that consider that one song. That's like one whole song. All the way from a deste fidelis or silent night all the way through to Melikaliki Maka. That whole album is like a song. And it's like a classic.
+
+[29:52] Right. So you got but uh I I'm a I like Feliz Navidad. Oh I like I like Holly Jolly Christmas. I like that. Uh I know I'm forgetting one of my favorites.
+
+[30:02] Oh, I like Perry Como's version of Home for the Holidays. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Anything knacking cole. Really?
+
+[30:07] Your knacking cnack and cole kind of a Christmas? Oh, he's great. Yeah? All right. Anyway.
+
+[30:12] Uh you want to take a call? James Brown's Christmas is interesting. Yes, I will. Uh James Brown's Christmas album is interesting because he is incredibly crazy. He has a song called Soulful Christmas Tree.
+
+[30:21] I think this is a song, where he sits around and basically says that uh Merry Christmas to the people that bought his album and saw his show. And that's it. He's like, I love you because you bought my album. It's on my show. Jim Brown.
+
+[30:36] All right, caller, you're on the air. Is he? Is she or she on the air? Hello? Hello.
+
+[30:43] Hi, how you doing? Is it me? What? Yeah, you're on the air. All right.
+
+[30:49] Awesome. Dave, what's up, man? Thanks. Nothing. Hi, how's it going?
+
+[30:52] Um cool, man. Calling from uh Westchester. Nice. Um, you know, so I had a question about Guan Chali. I went to make Guan Chali last year.
+
+[31:01] I had a five pound of pork uh cheeks sitting around, so I guanchalified them. Nice. Um, and mid mid mid-guan changing, I got a little nervous, uh, food safety nervous, I guess. And I decided to uh throw him in my dehydrator to speed up the guan challifying process. Ooh, really?
+
+[31:21] And they didn't come out bad, but it definitely did something in the texture where the fat had like a snappiness to it, and uh, you know, they weren't the best, they weren't the best thing in the world. Right. Um but I got through 'em. So I got another five pounds of Guancholy or uh pork cheeks, and I wanted to try it again. Now what is the safest way?
+
+[31:41] So I did like a week of song cure, and then I bet I hung them on my porch. The thing that got me nervous was the porch camp during the day was getting a little warm and it was kind of melting my fat a little bit and all that. So where's the best spot to hang these suckers up? Did you did you did you salt them flat and then roll them after some of the initial cure or what'd you do? Uh, I had them like sitting at a half inch of salt with like a half inch of salt on top of 'em.
+
+[32:13] Right. And so then after you hang them, they're already basically in equalization stage and they're pretty thin, right? I mean, they're pretty thin and like most of it's fat and you I think you're all right. I mean, like I just I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would keep it a little bit uh cooler.
+
+[32:28] Did are you a spice on your Guan Chali guy or not? You know what? I'm pretty sure I had like allspice or juniper, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Yeah, I like that. I'm a huge Guan Chali fan.
+
+[32:38] I look I wouldn't worry about it overly much. Look, it's thin and it's very high in fat, and um you added some curing salt to it. Nothing bad I think is gonna happen, right? Okay. So I could just let it rip.
+
+[32:51] Yeah. That's okay if the fat is rendering out a little bit mid day. Drinking on my Lego. I mean, uh I mean from a safety standpoint, yeah. I mean, like you don't want I don't you don't want that happening, I don't think.
+
+[33:04] You know what I mean? Like in turn but like uh I think from a safety standpoint you should be all right. Okay, cool. All right. Cool.
+
+[33:11] Hey, speak speaking of fat, uh I took you know how like uh you know how like uh different pork fats have different textures depending on where they come from? Yeah. Yeah. So like uh one of the things I did in the spinzall is I took it's not I haven't posted it yet, but one of the things that this is the centrifuge I'm working on. One of the things I did was I took uh regular rendered lard, right?
+
+[33:28] So regular rendered lards really hard to bake with because uh it's too unsaturated, right? It's not like the back, you know, the back lard or the leaf lard or any of that stuff. So what I did was I took regular lard and spun it in the spin's all with some ice cubes around the outside of the of the uh bowl, and I was able to get hard lard out of it that I can bake pastry with, and then a soft, like kind of pig oil that I can use for frying stuff. Pretty sweet. Oh, best biscuits, not that that nostasia cares, but yeah, best pie.
+
+[34:01] Like lard biscuits, lard pie. I mean, there's look, lard was the primary fat for a whole group of people, right? I mean, like, you know, butter was r relatively expensive. Um, and you know, uh, you know, nut oils and or olive oils were not available to like, you know, a lot of people in uh in the north of Europe, so and in America, and so lard lard was the stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:26] Like lard was the way to go. Lard. Also, I started trimming my large pieces, kind of extra trimming the fat off of briskets and things like that just to render it down. Because what you end up doing, you end up spending a ton of money on olive oil, you know, but meanwhile, you're throwing away perfectly good cooking fat every time you trim a piece of pork or a piece of beef. Yeah, I think that stuff render it down, you're good to go, right?
+
+[34:52] Yeah, I do the pressure I do I I do pressure cooker rendering typically because it's easier. I mean, the I think the like saving fat, I think it's a bad rap because the the only fat that most people save is bacon fat. And the problem with bacon fat is not. Yeah. Yeah, you're shot, you're shot.
+
+[35:07] Yeah. I pressed the brisk I pressed the corn beef for Christmas, you trim the fat off the brisket, and you got yourself two weeks worth of frying fat. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. All right.
+
+[35:18] Save the fat, my brother. Thanks for all the free advice and everything. All right. All right, cool. Let us know how the Guan Charlie turns out.
+
+[35:23] Right around. It's true. Save the fat. The problem with bak bacon fat people, obviously, is that it goes rancid fairly quickly. So and it's been exposed to such a high temperature during the bacon cooking.
+
+[35:39] It's got like all salt in it. It's got there's everything that can assault fat is happening inside of bacon fat. So cooking something in bacon fat right away is delicious, but saving the bacon fat for a long time can be problematic because it develops rancidity very quickly. Oh my god, Nastasia, you're wearing the shirt. You just noticed.
+
+[36:15] So in that production is uh an abominable snowman, but he's not called the he's called the abominable or the bumble. And uh she is wearing a a bumble sweater. And in fact, not just the, but your shirt is incorrect because he has teeth and he's hanging the mistletoe. So the bumble who hang hangs the missile or the you know mistletoe stuff is a toothless bumble. So, you know.
+
+[36:44] I can black those out. This is not the official rankin' bass Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Right, but it's the only one we can afford to play. I'll have you know it's Burl Ives that sings Red Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. We can only afford the general MIDI version, sorry.
+
+[36:59] But Burl Lives is dead. Can't he I guess we still have to pay him? Somebody still owns it. The Rankin's Bass Corporation. Wow.
+
+[37:09] Goes way up the way up the chain. Wow. That's rough. Dude, like uh nothing sacred. Let me tell you something.
+
+[37:16] Like Christmas music with like mid anything midi is like, unless it's like Super Mario Brothers, like all the soul has been removed. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, back to Carlos and the pine nuts. Uh you pop a handful in your mouth, one by one, crack the shell, enjoy the nuts, spit it out. If you drive through New Mexico and Arizona, you'll see vans parked on the side of the road with pignon painted on the side in big red letters.
+
+[37:39] Uh they fetch a pretty penny. I haven't been to Arizona in like two decades. I need to go back. I like I love the way Arizona smells sometimes. Like the desert has a very particular smell, especially if it's a little moist, if it's not like one of those push hot days they have over there.
+
+[37:54] Uh they fetch a pretty penny, usually upwards of $20 a pound. I have a friend who sells them and they roast them in a big metal drum over an open flame, similar to how we roast green chilies. I'll be in New Mexico for the holidays and will make sure to replenish my stash. If you're interested in trying some, I can part ways with a bit and send you some to try. I'd love it, yeah, please.
+
+[38:11] Uh I find that tastes better than pre-shelled European and Chinese from the store, but I know I'm biased. Uh happy holidays and best of luck with the spinzall. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, but by the way, people, buy the spin.
+
+[38:21] Eleven days. Buy the you know what? Pre-order the freaking spinzel. Will you pre-order the freaking spinzall? Will you pre will you pre-order?
+
+[38:28] Will you do me a favor and will you pre-order the freaking spinzall? Listen, we need enough people who are early adopters who have the cash. Look, what do you need me to see it do? What do you need? What do you need?
+
+[38:39] I've done citrus, I've done tomatoes, I've done uh coffee, I've done fat fractionation. I've done uh what else, Nastasi? I've done like uh gin, I've done I've done yogurt and bolavne, I've done butter, I've done chocolate butter, I've done, I've done uh what do you need? What do you think? We're gonna do wheatgrass then.
+
+[38:58] Oh, wheatgrass tastes terrible. Let me tell you something, I'll give you guys a thing. So, like uh, so I was trying to do something for we're doing the 12 days of Christmas with the spinz all, 12 days of spinning all, spinning everything. And so I uh Paul Adams, who's you know, helping us out, he was like, uh, six six cheeses de-weighing, and then you get like ricotta. I was like, oh genius.
+
+[39:19] So I get ricotta, but I'm doing it not doing it for taste, so I don't go to DiPalos and get the nice ricotta. I go to, you know, the supermarket and buy garbage brand parade, you know, garbage ricotta. I put it in, I spin it, nothing. I look at it and I'm like, oh my god, the ricotta is so heavily stabilized with Xanthan, guar and LBG that it doesn't get rid of any of its weight, even when it's like you know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
+
+[39:43] I wish I st I wish I had my 4,000 G centrifuge running, or I would have thrown it in that just to see whether it could do anything to it. But it was like so hyper-stabilized, so I was so pissed. Then I took wheatgrass, right? So wheatgrass is poison. I took wheatgrass and I put it in my vita prep.
+
+[39:59] I hit it with every enzyme in the book, right? And I got actually a good amount of wheatgrass juice out of it, and I tasted it, and I was like, yes, the spinzall can do this, but you should not do this. I was like, this is not something you should do. This stuff tastes But people do it. This is horrific.
+
+[40:15] And it's a lot of work. I mean, like, in other words, you take you take five dollars worth of wheatgrass and you get one little shot out of that five dollars worth of freaking wheatgrass. So you're spending five dollars and you're working hard to get something that tastes poisonous. Like, why would anyone do that? Mm-hmm.
+
+[40:34] Do you like this stuff? No. No, I don't. You know what it does? It smells good.
+
+[40:38] It smells almost like fresh pressed olive oil. It's got like a kind of green. I think you're just supposed to hold your nose when you drink it, right? Or you know what? Or I'll only drink stuff that tastes good.
+
+[40:49] How about that instead? Michael writes in on cider. Uh I like fresh cider and hard cider, but my favorite is in between. The stuff you get when you leave fresh cider in the fridge too long, and it just gets slightly effervescent, alcoholic, and less sweet. Conveniently from my stingy and lazy butt, the cheap pasteurized cider with potassium sorbate works great.
+
+[41:08] I ferment it with champagne yeast, and it stops right about at the point I like. Questions. Any safety concerns when bottling it compared with drier, more alcoholic cider? I expect the sorbate and atmosphere to be even more hostile to mold than yeast, and the acid should inhibit bacterial pathogens, but I'm still concerned about the sugar. Ah, you know, look, I looked at so remember, there's uh keeving is a whole technique of making cider specifically where the fermentation is arrested and there's sugar left in the bottle.
+
+[41:36] And I couldn't find any records of uh safety issues with keeved cider anywhere. I couldn't find anywhere, anything, nothing. Um, is the yeast killed or just inhibited by the sorbate? Can I ex uh can I expect priming the bottle with sugar to restart fermentation, or do I just need to bottle it before primary fermentation ends? Uh okay.
+
+[41:59] And then how come pasteurized cider stays cloudy forever while raw cider sediments out eventually? Gelatinized gelatinized applestarch? That's the other question. That's how I uh let you know that that's a question part. Thanks, Michael.
+
+[42:10] Uh, here's my uh feelings on this. Uh first of all, uh, I don't think it's starch, I think something happens with the pectin where it doesn't settle out once it's cooked. Although I don't know. It's interesting to look at. It could be a starch thing, but I doubt it.
+
+[42:20] I do know that even in a centrifuge, pasteurized apple cider is more of a pain, much, much, much more of a pain uh to filter out than uh or to sediment out than um fresh apple juice or uh uncooked uh apple, you know, what you would call cider. Uh it's much, much more difficult. I'd always ascribed it to because a lot of our uh apples don't really contain any starch, because if they did contain starch, uh some apples do, but uh, you know, most apples don't have that much starch, otherwise it'd be difficult for me to clarify at all because starch doesn't uh do that much. So I know for a fact that um cooked apple juice can be a pain in the butt, and I've always ascribed that to pectin. Although I could be wrong, because I've never actually investigated it.
+
+[43:01] Uh I don't really have the tools to investigate it. Um as to your other thing, what's going on with the sorbate? So, sorbate does a uh number of things. First of all, uh the amount of inhibition that sorbate uh provides for yeast and other things growing is highly dependent on the alcohol concentration. So the higher the uh alcohol concentration, the less sorbate is required for um for uh inhibition, uh for grow you know growth uh inhibition.
+
+[43:30] Also, sorbate uh tends to um sorbate won't necessarily kill, this is what I've read, sorbate won't necessarily or doesn't kill yeast. What it does is prevent yeast from growing. So um, and you know, prevent them from uh you know doing their thing. At a certain level, it will also, I think, you know, kind of wipe them out. But uh, you know, at the levels we're using, it it's uh it's an inhibition to growth.
+
+[43:54] So if you if you take a champagne uh yeast and you pitch it into a starter, right, so that the yeast can become active and you have all these uh yeast cells that are alive, they can keep fermenting in the sorbate up to the level where the alcohol and the sorbate match and they stop uh working, and then the fermentation won't restart at that point. So I think you might have problems uh adding more sugar and getting it to start again unless you pitched a fresh starter with uh maybe with a little bit of sugar, in which case you might be able to get it to go again. But I uh that's that's my feeling, and that's kind of how the sorbate works. So a sorbate with sorbate, uh I think the your kind of auto-keeving situation here is due uh in keeving the way it works is you have uh pectin, the pectin traps the yeast nutrients and the yeast uh lack of yeast nutrients means that they can't keep producing up to their finished level, so they're inhibited by the alcohol earlier than they otherwise would be, and you're left with residual sugar. Um and I think once they do that at the end they hit it with sorbate just to stop anything else from growing in it.
+
+[44:59] But uh in your case, um you're not doing that. You're just uh pre-inhibiting it with sorbate and letting it ferment up to where it gets to. So anyway, I would assume that different brands of cider will have different um interactions depending on how uh much uh sorbate they put into it. Anyway, um Caesar Dovgato writes in about beer. Hey Anastasia, Dave, Dave, and guest in case there is one.
+
+[45:21] Uh longtime listener, first time emailer. I'm wondering what the maximum temperature this uh the spinz all can handle. Uh I home brew beer and was wondering if I could use it to spin out all the hops and other gunk that come out of the kettle before passing the beer through the chiller. From what I know, the cold break, which are the solids that precipitate after chilling beer, are good for fermentation, but all of the hot break solids that form in the kettle due to boiling and hop residues are best kept out of the carboy. I figured the spinzall's continuous feed would be great for doing that if it can survive boiling hot wort, that is.
+
+[45:50] As well as anyone try to spin the yeast out from bottle conditioned beers to harvest the yeast uh on the prototype. I figured you could run star sand through it, which is a sanitizer and stash and out that you give a rat's behind, uh, for a couple of minutes to make sure it's sanitized and then pour the bottle drags into it. Might be a fun experiment for yeast wranglers. In fact, um uh in fact, Caesar is from Caesar Delgado. In fact, uh I have some uh really nice beers that uh were sent to me uh by uh Blappins uh to spin out.
+
+[46:22] Uh I drank one, it was delicious. The name for some reason just went right out of my head. Uh but I'm gonna try to harvest the other two yeasts. But the thing is I have to find something to pitch it into and then like put it into a liquid and mail it back up so someone can uh repitch it and see whether it works. Um but yes, I I am considering doing I'm I'm going to do that probably right after I get back from uh from New Year's.
+
+[46:43] The other thing is uh I think it'll handle it, it's not gonna be a hundred percent boiling by the time it hits the rotor uh because it has to go through the peristaltic pump first. You're gonna have to get rid of any big residue because like leaves tend to kind of get clogged in the peristaltic pump as they go through. But uh anything smaller than like a like leaf, like little fine particles is fine, like albumin particles all fine. Uh and it should handle it fine because it's dishwasher safe. I've run uh I've run boiling water through it to do I forget what I was doing, what was I doing?
+
+[47:13] I was running boiling water, oh, for nut milk. I basically, with the way I did nut milk was I did a very, very stiff nut milk and then uh let that go through because I didn't want to have to do uh double work, you know, the blend twice. So I blended all the nuts and the vita prep once, sucked it through the spinz all, and then just put boiling water through it. Not boiling, but like, you know, simmer simmer uh boiled it in the microwave and then just pumped it through to kind of steep out the rest of the nut milk products to make nut milk. So uh at least in the prototype, and the prototype is less tough than the real one.
+
+[47:41] Uh so yeah, it should handle those temperatures just fine. Uh okay. Uh we have uh two questions from Patrick. Oh, Patrick says, how much time have we got? Yeah, two minutes.
+
+[47:53] All right. Uh thanks for holding the show together. I'm going through the back catalog and have begun to develop a theory this about eunostasia, uh, that the presence of a stern organized woman might be the best treatment option for the management of adult ADHD. Without your, this is Unostasia's influence. Uh, I fear that Dave might uh just be holed up in a kitchen lab somewhere filling up notebooks with information that would otherwise never see the light of day.
+
+[48:15] That said, I think a lot of us listeners would like to hear you chime in more on the show. You can see yourself uh organized, I'll agree with. Stern, I'll agree with. Speaking of stern, last week we had uh we had sunchokes here. After we had the McGee conversation, Stasi went out and ordered a giant sunchoke pile of sunchokes.
+
+[48:36] And did you get your butt sunchokes? My stomach was not so good. You were fine. I mean, yeah. I was fine.
+
+[48:43] Really? Yeah. Yeah, I was fine. I mean, you know, uh, I'm an animal though. Yes, that's true.
+
+[48:49] Anyway, uh, here are the questions we have from Patrick. When I'm reducing liquids, I uh frequently see no visible evaporation when the saucepan is on the flame, but then a ton of evaporation as soon as I pull it off. What's going on there? Is it actually invisibly evaporating while more on the flame uh on the flame, or does it speed up reduction to pull the pan and stir periodically, which seems to be how I get uh maximum visible evaporation? I think what's going on here is that um when you have it over the flame, you have a lot of hot uh vapor coming around the sides of the pan and up, and you are inhibiting the condensation of the water that's coming off of the pan because of the extra heat.
+
+[49:28] And as soon as you pull it off and you don't have that extra like heat around the outside, it takes uh l a lot less time for the water vapor to condense uh and so you see less visible vapor, but there is probably much more actual liquid coming off of it uh when it's on the flame. It's a guess. What do you think, Studis? Yes. Okay.
+
+[49:48] She's like, I wasn't listening, I'm texting somebody. Uh second, and probably more theoretically, I often get preposterously hung over from drinking craft beers. For a long time I assume this was just a pure rate of alcohol consumption issue that was getting fuzzed up by variable ABVs and serving sizes. But I've been paying closer attention to actual total alcohol consumption and running into situations where I've woken up feeling like crap from the craft beer alcohol equivalent of 2.5 80-proof shots, which would normally not even register the next morning for me. Any idea what's going on here scientifically?
+
+[50:18] Uh thanks for doing the show. Uh I try hard to redeem my morning commute with informative but reasonably entertaining things to listen to, and y'all nail that balance like a steak with just enough fat on it. Uh let me answer your question before your uh sign off thing. Um I think look, the cause of hangovers uh has been studied uh kind of extensively recently. I don't think it's about a hundred percent determined.
+
+[50:38] I haven't looked at the research in the past like three or four years, but like prior to that, uh it was kind of shown that for instance, hangovers are not necessarily dehydration related, because people used to think that it was dehydration. Instead, it's just it mimics kind of uh what goes on with dehydration. One of the other theories is that um things that are higher in congeners, right? Like so things like fusel oils, higher alcohols, other fermentation things can uh lead to a hangover. I don't think it's necessarily been proven.
+
+[51:03] However, if you're drinking craft beers, so when you're not drinking a craft beer, you're probably drinking a lager. Lager is gonna happens at low temperatures, produces relatively fewer congeners, fewer higher alcohols, fewer esters, few of all these things. Uh so like uh higher uh higher temperatures, uh more uh during fermentation, which I guess can happen in a lot of craft beers that aren't being lagered, right? Because they're doing it at more at ale temperatures. We're talking about ales here, uh, they can develop a lot more of these congeners, which we perceive as being good taste, but maybe can lead to hangovers.
+
+[51:34] So maybe that's what's going on. Uh I don't know. Take a look at that. Okay, one more thought before I sign off. I am no ek I'm in no economic position to drop $700 on kitchen equipment, but I really believe in the project and what talking about the spinz all and want to see this thing work.
+
+[51:49] Is there any way you could open up the spinzall Kickstarter to general supporter donations? I think it's a big thing. But it's but here's the idea. Here's the Patrick's idea. Uh after all the hours of cooking issues I've listened to, I'd love to drop $20 in the hat, and imagine there's a lot of others like me as well.
+
+[52:03] Uh, even better, you could do some sort of raffle where everyone that donates 20 uh or 50 to the Kickstarter gets entered in a drawing to win a spinzel. It's an interesting idea. Good idea. Good idea. Anyway, so listen, uh, when you're making your holiday uh meats, if you're doing a roast, let me just suggest I said this before.
+
+[52:20] The day before, the day before, don't bother doing anything to it. Just get it in a bag. Maybe it already came in a bag. Low temperature cook it. This I'm talking about rib roast here.
+
+[52:30] Low temperature cook it through to like 55 degrees, right? For a long time. Rebbe, but you don't have to watch it. Then pull it out, and then the day of, right, just put it in at high heat and just put a thermometer, and as soon as the inside of the meat gets even barely warm, like enough so that it's just service temperature ready, the sucker's done. The sucker's done.
+
+[52:49] You don't have to worry about it. Low temperature for insurance, people. For insurance. Not necessarily for cooking effect, but at the holidays, what you want with your fantastically expensive rib roast that you're serving to your whole family and praying it comes out is you just don't want it undercooked in the middle, and you don't want it overcooked. You just want low temperature for insurance.
+
+[53:09] And with that, Merry Christmas, happy holidays, cooking issues, thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[54:03] Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[54:27] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. For more information, visit Corin.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:28] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking It True's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from the American American American American. Where am I today, Stuzz? Bushwick.
+
+[0:52] Where? Brooklyn. Well, you forgot to say Roberta's Peach. Well, that's a given. This didn't go well.
+
+[0:57] You're supposed to like you got a bub-bub-bh-bush. There's no other place. You gotta do the bubba bub. Okay, so uh we have uh as usual in the studio, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, which you referred to in a question as the hamorous. Did you like that?
+
+[1:14] Did you enjoy the hamorous? Mm-hmm. Yeah? Mm-hmm. And uh we got uh Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:19] How you doing, Dave? I'm good, how are you? Good. Call in. Oh, by the way, we have a special guest on the phone, not gonna bring him on quite yet, uh, because I gotta tell you where who he is.
+
+[1:26] Although actually, you know what? Are you there? Uh Professor, are you there? He's been waiting. Hello.
+
+[1:33] Hello. Hey, so we have uh special guest today, uh Charles. Now Dr. Charles. Now, you're he pronounces his last name like 70s disco style, Le Fever.
+
+[1:44] Even though it's written Frenchie style, Lefebvre, but you go by Le Fever, which I think is like a thousand times better. What do you think, Stuz? Yeah. Is that true? Yeah.
+
+[1:54] Le Fever is the American. Yeah, yeah, seriously American, which I you know everyone here knows. I appreciate. And uh Professor uh Lafever or Doctor Lefever is the world's authority on uh specifically on Oregon truffles, but all things truffle. He is a uh you're a mycologist, correct?
+
+[2:12] That is correct. Is there a subspecialty within mycology that deals with uh truffles? Oh no, there's not a name for it. You could make one up though, truffleologist. Truffleologist, ectomycorizolologist.
+
+[2:28] So uh so anyway, so uh how do you like to be referred to, by the way? How what what do you want me to call you? Uh Charles the slide. Okay, Charles. So uh call in all of your truffle related questions.
+
+[2:40] Now, as I said, he he actually has a a company where he grows uh well he cultivates uh European um tubermelanosporums in Oregon, as well as collects uh the local domestic Oregon truffle varieties and searches all over the country and the world for new interesting, unused, whether they taste good or whether they don't, uh, varieties of truffles. So you can call in any, any and all truffle related or probably any uh mushroom or mycological uh questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497 uh 2128. So let's get let's just get started right away and let's talk about kind of why you just give the the um by the way, our uh our listeners here, the cooking issues crowd is not afraid of uh of uh technical jargon or uh complexities or anything. So you don't need to like hold back or anything.
+
+[3:31] Why don't you just basically explain what a truffle is? What is a truffle? Well, truffle's a mushroom. And but I should say, unlike other mushrooms, they depend on animals to disperse their spores. So where mushrooms will disperse their spores in the wind, truffles depend on animals finding them, digging them up, eating them for their dispersal.
+
+[3:52] So that's kind of key to the whole understanding of why truffles are expensive. Because they, you know, imagine they're they're hidden in the forests out in the wilderness. It's cold, it's wet, it's dark, and they have to somehow convince some animal to come find them. So they just uh they use every trick they can to attract animals from as far away as they can to eat them. And uh it it explains why they're expensive.
+
+[4:23] Now, so so let's so this is where they're underground and they're like the the fruiting body of these uh these funguses that fungi that uh live in close proximity to certain tree roots, right? That's right. Yeah, they're in a in a mycorrhizal symbiosis with the trees. It's both the fungus and the tree need each other. Now and the hard part about it, right, is is that these truffles they they only gr they don't grow with the tree for its entire life, right?
+
+[4:52] Don't you have to find like like a specific like this particular one likes to live in trees that are between like 15 and 50 years old? Isn't it like all weird and crazy like this? Yeah, there's there is ecological succession on the roots of an individual tree. So yes, uh uh different truffles live it within a different window of time on the roots of the trees. Fortunately, almost all truffles live on very, very young trees, which is why we can cultivate them.
+
+[5:15] So, like how long? Like so like like let's say you're gonna go uh like oak hazel, not like European style, like uh like what are we looking at for the age of the optimum age for a truffling up a tree? Well, the uh among my customers, the very youngest trees that have produced truffles have been three years old. Huh, cool. And so you actually do you use are you sell uh like trees with uh that have been inoculated with the spores or no?
+
+[5:38] That's correct, yes. Just so you know, whenever I say spore, Nastasia, my co-hors co here, like she detests the word spore. Maybe you can make her not hate the word spore so much. You can think of a spore as a seed. Yeah.
+
+[5:53] Serves the same function in the life cycle as the organism that a seed does. Yeah, all right. Well, tech technically obviously not correct, but makes her feel better, so all right. Uh but the um So now here's here's my other uh thing. So one of your well um I don't even know where to start 'cause I got so much to uh so much to deal with here on uh on the truffles.
+
+[6:11] So let's go back to this smell. So all truffles, because they all live underground. By the way, how far underground are we talking? Oh, anywhere from actually on the surface where you can see them to three or four feet deep. Three or four feet?
+
+[6:25] Can a dog smell three or four feet deep? Yes, they can. The world's largest Italian light truffles live found three feet deep. I wonder how it tasted. Is there any difference in taste between depth?
+
+[6:36] Is there any sort of like in a particular region? So assuming there's a terroir for a region which I'm gonna have you talk about in a minute, uh, is there any relationship between size and depth and flavor? I don't know that there's any connection between size and flavor or depth and flavor, but there could be. There's certainly a huge variation in flavor from one truffle to the next. Yeah, because it's and it's it's it's likely that the host tree has an impact on their flavor and then and the region very easily could.
+
+[7:05] But there may be more variability from one truffle to the next, even within a place than there are between places. Really? So like uh uh tuber melanosporum, the perigord truffle, the black truffle. Uh so if you were to take it, I'm sure you have, I don't know, but if you take uh one that you've harvested in um in Oregon, and you were to somehow take one that was harvested in uh France and then fly to some point in the middle so that they each were out of the dirt for the exact same length of time and they were the same, you know, relative size and whatever, uh, would there be a big difference in flavor between the two that were grown in different areas, assuming they were on the same kind of tree substrate? So far, nobody has has shown that there is a difference between truffles grown in the natural habitat versus truffles grown outside the natural habitat.
+
+[7:52] But of course, in different regions of Europe where truffles are grown, um, there's there's a perceived difference. Like the truffles from Paragord are the most expensive, where those from Spain are a little less expensive. Even and and is but so with something that's this expensive, you would assume that people have figured out tests for faking it, right? Because there's a lot of money involved. Is it but in other words, like is it one of these things where it's very hard to tell the difference between where they come from, and so you can have people selling one item as another and and provenance just becomes something you have to kind of take on faith or absolutely.
+
+[8:30] I think probably uh the majority of truffles that are coming from parigord are actually harvested elsewhere. Huh. And well, but the then now the thing is is that like a lot of things that are faked, right, like wines, uh you know, there's a difference between um fooling an expert and fooling uh you know a relative novice, right? So when you're faking an old Bordeaux, you just have to get close to faking an orb old Bordeaux, and you're gonna 99% of the people aren't going to be able to tell the difference. Um but sometimes experts can, sometimes they can't, and it has to be done, you know, with actual analysis.
+
+[9:04] But are you saying that even experienced expert truffle eaters and cookers and preparers probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between, let's say, a Spanish uh tubermelanosporum and an actual French one? I think that they probably could not reliably tell where the truffle had come from. But there's one possible exception to that, and that's with the Italian white truffles. They're uh their aroma, their shape, and their color does vary from one place to another. So truffles from certain regions are more are flatter, others are rounder.
+
+[9:37] So that might be one clue for the next for you, but do you identify do you attribute that to local conditions or to basically like almost I mean they're not cultivars because it's not cultivated, but varieties, in other words. I think it's more like local conditions, how compacted the soil is, how rocky the soil is, whether the truffle has to grow around roots and rocks and things. Yeah, okay. So now now when it comes to uh truffles, right? No matter what they are, they all have uh I mean, how do you describe they're all funky, right?
+
+[10:09] So it's like s almost they're not the majority of them are supposed to be found by what? By rodents, things like rodents? You know, uh yeah, the the definition of the word truffle is that they depend on animals to eat their or to disperse their spores. The term animal is very broad, so it can be flies or slugs or rodents or mammals. Uh they're even examples of birds dispersing them.
+
+[10:33] Huh. But I mean, but the m but in other words, like they're not shooting for carnivores specifically. So even though dogs are carnivores, they happen to have good noses, they're not aiming at carnivores. Right. So carnivores are the one group of animals that do not eat truffles.
+
+[10:48] They're not the one, but they're one major group of animals that does not eat truffles. So why is it that I mean a dogs presumably are good just because their sniffers are good and you can train them to sniff out anything? Uh by the way, you train people how to train their dogs, right? We do. Yeah.
+
+[11:05] You sent me some, he actually he sent me some information on training. I was able to train uh my my black lab, the my smaller dog hasn't got taken to training yet in general, but I was able to train major big dog, my lab, to find uh truffle oil anywhere in my yard. But I wasn't able to find any tuber uh any truffles on my on my property anywhere. But my uh professor also sent me, or Charles also sent me some uh Oregon truffles, which we'll talk about in a minute, and I was able to get major fairly easily to go find the shavings from the outside of it all over my apartment. So it's not like it's not rocket science.
+
+[11:42] If you have a good dog with a good nose who can follow basic commands, you can train them to go look for truffles on your property, yes? That's that's right, it's very easy. Yeah. Um anyway, so we'll get back to that in a minute. But my my main question is is that why would something that smells animally attract uh non carnivores, herbivores?
+
+[12:01] It seems strange. If I was going to attract an herbivore, if I want to attract flies, I get, right? You want to have some sort of like weird funky animal carrying s something, right? Some process of uh something doing something funky. But with uh with like a mouse, like what the heck?
+
+[12:16] Like, why wouldn't it give off some sort of like delicious carrot smell or some sort of like something that you think would attract an herbivore? Why does it give off these kind of animal notes? I mean, in other words, my point is are the animals looking for something other than food? Boom, boom, boom, but then they and they find it, they're like, I can eat this thing and they eat it? I mean, what do you think?
+
+[12:34] Yeah, I I think all those things. Um I think it's very likely that the truffles and the animals, the dispersed ones have co-evolved. And that different truffles tune their aroma to the physiology of the animal they're trying to attract. So different truffles are wildly different from each other. Some of them probably do smell like turrets, others smell like fruit.
+
+[12:55] Uh some smell like juicy fruit gum. Do you like do you like juicy fruit gum? Well, you know, it's interesting when you find it out in the in the dry forest up a tree line in some beautiful setting. It's an it's an amazing experience to smell juicy fruit gum gum coming out of the ground. Fair, fair.
+
+[13:15] Now, so s now here's the point that uh I think one of your main uh points, and by the way, you you guys should know anyone who's near uh Portland or you know, near that area, next week is the uh Oregon Truffle Festival that uh actually you host, uh Charles, that I'm gonna be going to along with Peter Meehan from Lucky Peach and Harold McGee. We're all going together and we're gonna go out and find truffles and cook with truffles and eat with truffles, and it's uh it's a grand old time. And I'm we actually get to meet in in person. Um but um so when you're talking Oregon truffles, one of the things that you get kind of everyone if let's everyone's biased and they really like the you know, the white, like the um, you know, classic uh tuber magnatum white truffle from Italy, or the Perigor, the uh black truffle tubermelanosporum, and everyone's like, these are the best, everything else blows. And um partly, I think one of the your points is is that most of the other truffles are not harvested in a way that is going to produce good truffles, which I'll have you talk about in a minute.
+
+[14:17] But I think the other thing is that people don't allow for difference, right? So they can just be these other truffles, like the Oregon truffles that we're gonna talk about, they can just be different. They don't have to be the same thing, right? No, they're wildly different. The Oregon white truffle smells like pineapple, where the Italian white truffle smells like garlic.
+
+[14:37] They're wildly different from each other and they're used in different ways. Right. And I actually find in my experience that people's preferences are kind of set by the truffles that they experience first. Right. By the way, Nastassi, are you a big truffle person?
+
+[14:49] You like truffles? I like white ones. I don't like black ones. You don't like black ones? Yeah, she's well, Nastasia only likes either, either she she just wants the most expensive possible, the most expensive possible one.
+
+[15:00] And by the way, I brought I have with me the left uh what's left of my uh stash of truffles. We're gonna shave them on top of the pizza that we have here at lunch with the birdus, but I bought the worst, like the crappiest truffle shaver. I went to freaking uh Sirla Tab and bought this, and it's made in Italy, but it's just garbage. It's just the garb most garbage truffle shaver. By the way, while we're at it, before we get into this, are you a believer in um in trimming off the outside uh with a with a pairing knife, or are you a a rubbing person, or are you how how how do you like to do it?
+
+[15:30] I think actually there's an aesthetic appeal to having the rind around the the edge of the slice. I keep it on. And then but do you like then do you rub it or do you don't wash them, right? I mean, what do you do? Oh, we do wash them, yeah.
+
+[15:42] So you don't want the soil on the truffle. Right, so you just wash pat dry and then shave? Yes, exactly. All right. Um so you're not a believer in paring them down.
+
+[15:53] Do you think you're throwing stuff away, or you just like that you like that just like that line around it that shows the difference in color of the outside of it? Yeah, that that line on the outside is attractive. But you don't think it's actually a quality uh criterion? Uh truffle that's the size that'll fit through a shaver that's nice and round so that you can get that entire line actually makes that a more attractive truffle. Right.
+
+[16:13] Okay. Now, um now the the two main truffles that you guys are are doing, first of all, one of them, the Oregon black truffle isn't isn't a tuber species, it's a different species, right? That's right. It's Lutangium. And then is that is it like a super closely related or no?
+
+[16:29] Uh they are fairly closely related, um, as are the desert truffles from North Africa. They're all in uh but I noticed when you small line. When you cut open the Oregon uh black truffle, the winter black truffle, whatever you want to call it, it the the black lines on the inside aren't as distinct as they are on like a Milanosporum. It's like much more, it's like gray and cream instead of like like blackish gray and cream. Would you would you say that's accurate or no?
+
+[16:57] Well, it varies. Uh and actually the the appearance of the interior of the truffle is is a good indicator of the quality of the truffle. So the more contrast there is, the more black and white they are. That's a more mature truffle. And the same is true for the Oregon black truffles.
+
+[17:10] But instead of marbling on the interior, the Oregon black truffles are a kind of salt and pep pepper speckled black and white. Right. So maybe that's what I was uh focusing on. Now the also the Oregon black uh truffle, it seemed to have kind of like uh a lot of more kind of roasty soy kind of notes than uh than the white one did, which as you say is more has more kind of fruity, not in a bad way, but like s solvent the high notes, right? So the white one is more like a high note truffle and the other one's more like a roasty thing.
+
+[17:41] Do you ever use them together, compliment each other? We do use them together often. Um but actually you're telling me that the that you're getting these roasty notes from the black truffle tells me a lot about that truffle. The black truffles have an enormous variety of aromas that they can produce and when they're their youngest, they're very, very fruity and sweet. And they develop more savory notes later on.
+
+[18:03] Well I actually took some of them that smelled sweeter and I made an ice cream out of the I actually thought I was going to like the black ice cream a lot more than the white one and the white one was more animal also the white one had more kind of classic mushroom notes to the taste than uh I mean had those these like truffle notes as well but it also has the white uh which I guess so what's the what's the species there? It's uh uh tuber organace right the um the like that one along with the truffle notes had some classic mushroom notes at least when it was made into an ice cream me do you agree with that or no? Well yes and actually the the way you prepare the truffle uh can influence whether or not you produce that mushroom aroma when you um it so when you first said that it it made me think that you had grated the truffle and shredded it. Uh and the white I did. The the uh in the ice cream for the white one I yes I did.
+
+[19:00] That that mushroomy note is a product of the tissue damage from grading the truffle. Huh so if you don't want that you just leave it whole or or just um create less surface area. Just use a single slice something like that. Yeah, I sliced the heck out of it and then macerated it in cream and egg yolk and then spun it into an ice cream. Yeah.
+
+[19:22] Uh and I just there's an interesting byproduct to this, which is uh that mushroomy uh compound is one octane three all, just the smell of mushroom. And it uh is not present in a fresh truffle. And it only it only is produced by the truffle when the truffle is damaged. And it's uh most noticeable when the truffle is frozen. And it's it starts it's an unattractive aroma and something you don't really want it.
+
+[19:50] Really? I don't know. I like the taste of mushrooms. I can understand why you're saying if it's an indicator that someone did something they shouldn't have, right? Then I can see how it's uh it's kind of like it's like any trained olive oil uh person hates any sort of fusty or like any sort of like fermented notes in their in their olive oil, whereas people who haven't been trained to hate it don't hate it.
+
+[20:10] You know what I mean? So it's it's uh yes. Uh so in other words, when people, when they're buying um, like for instance, expensive white truffles and they're testing to see whether they've been frozen or not, what they're looking for is a mushroom note. Oh, it's obvious when a truffle has been frozen. It's soft, it loses its integrity, the marbling is gone in the interior.
+
+[20:28] Uh frozen truffle is ruined. Is there any way to is there any good way to freeze a truffle? Like in other words, like if I were to do it quickly, like in liquid nitrogen, can I preserve the the structure of it without ruining it, or is it just hosed entirely? Well, that would be interesting to try. Uh uh, I imagine it's the ice crystals forming in the interior that uh damages the tissue and invokes that enzymatic reaction to produce the one octane three L.
+
+[20:51] Right. Well, truffles are quite light. Yeah, but you can't freeze them that quickly because they're so light. I mean, that's the thing. It's like I imagine that it's fairly poor conductance through a truffle because they have a lot of air in them, so I wouldn't imagine that you could get as rapid a freezing as you would like.
+
+[21:08] So in other words, so when you freeze an egg yolk uh slowly, you denature the proteins to the extent that the egg yolk remains solid after it thaws. If you liquid nitrogen freeze an egg yolk, then uh when you thaw it again, it goes runny because the it ha it hasn't had the it didn't have the time to complex as it was going down as it was freezing, and so it comes back basically to its raw state again. Uh but you know, egg yolks can be egg yolks are very high in water and dense, and so it's fairly easy to freeze them fairly quickly. I imagine a truffle, which is much much lighter than water, uh would um probably not be as easy to freeze quickly. Although we could test it.
+
+[21:48] Hell, we could test it. Yeah. That'd be interesting. The one thing though I I think it's important to know is that the the value of a truffle is the aroma itself, not not the body of the the organism. So if there's if you capture the aroma in something else, that's the most authentic uh authentic way to store a truffle.
+
+[22:07] At least to store the experience of the truffle. So to capture that aroma in some kind of fatty food, say eggs or cheese or meat. Right. Um is the best way to store it rather than freezing it. I tell you, they that my whole refrigerator smelled like them when when uh the stuff was in there, and and we've become accustomed to it now in the studio, but we have them here in the studio inside of their plastic containers, and they still the aroma, the aroma goes right through a plastic deli container and like into I mean there's you know fills up the whole the whole area.
+
+[22:38] Now, but to go back to the aroma and like how much stays versus cooking, so the argument against uh what's the the uh the truth de chine, the Chinese truffle. Which truffle is that? Um sorry, the bad connection. You you said what the difference between the No, no, like what what what truffle variety? So it w one time when I was in France I went to uh Rongi's which is their market and I was talking to their truffle guys uh and then they they showed me these like basically these Chinese truffles which they call truff de chin and then the guy said to me he's like they smell fine when they're you know in this box he says but they lose everything when you use them and so they're relatively useless.
+
+[23:17] So what what about the first of all what species is the is that is the Chinese truffle that they're selling and secondly what about this like uh they they don't maintain their odor when they're being used um in a culinary sense and is there just strictly like more odorant to stay around in like a melanosporum or uh magnatum than there is in some of these other species that Chinese truffles are interesting. It's a complex of species there's vast diversity in China that's people are discovering right now. So there are any number of species that could be the most likely species is tuber indicum which is very closely related to the French black tubermelanosporum. Uh but the reason I think the primary reason that they have such a bad reputation and their prices are so low is because of the way they're harvested. They're used they're harvested with rakes like potatoes and another difference between a truffle and a mushroom is that a truffle needs to be ripe in order to have its culinary value.
+
+[24:31] So you have to let them mature. And each truffle ripens at a different time over a three month period, typically. So an indiscriminate way of harvesting them produces mostly immature truffles that have no culinary value. So that's the primary problem. So and you say that's the same problem with Oregon truffles, right?
+
+[24:49] The majority of domestic truffles that are harvested are not harvested using uh dogs or other form of animals smelling, right? Right. Right. That is the that is the main reason why organ truffles historically has been inexpensive and unappreciated. And and so you're on kind of like uh a mission, you and your cohorts are on a mission to basically say, look at um we're gonna sell these ones that are harvested by dogs.
+
+[25:18] Now uh not harvested by, but cer found by, hunted by uh by dogs. But you know, one of the problems I've noticed with lots of things in this country, for instance, uh country ham is to comes to mind because it's something I've worked with a lot, is that when you don't have a an easy way for consumers to know what they're purchasing, right? It's hard to get the extra value on top of um uh uh what you're doing. So, you know, and I I was talking to the country ham producers, I was like, look at you know, country ham is hugely widely varying qualities, uh, and you know, the definition is basically just based on a particular procedure. Do you have some sort of label or consortium or some sort of way that a consumer could very easily tell, you know, this this one, other than assuming that they have knowledge and they can smell it, and they'd be like, this one has a great aroma and this one is relatively useless.
+
+[26:16] Uh is there some sort of like way that you guys are trying to get together to uh let the consumer know what's what? There's a lot of conversation about that, but it hasn't happened. There's no certification yet. But it is obvious. The difference is obvious.
+
+[26:31] Anyone can tell. It's the difference between a truffle that has no aroma and a truffle that has lots of aroma. Right, but someone could someone can have a jar full of rice and truffles at their place, have like one or two ones that are decent that happen to be decent, and it stinks up the whole truffle jar, and then you buy the one, you know, that got raked out and you're hosed, right? I mean, like, you know, you take it home and you're ruined. That's right.
+
+[26:56] You have to sniff every single truffle. Each truffle needs to have a strong aroma of its own. Just smelling the truffles in a jar is not good enough. Now, how long like like uh so how long do you think these suckers last? Like how long does one of these last versus is there any difference in keeping time for an Oregon truffle versus for like uh one of the European varieties or no?
+
+[27:16] Oh well, there probably is, and and and it really depends on what characteristic they're looking at. The European truffle will stay intact longer, but it loses its aroma just as fast. So in terms of their their real value, their culinary value, the shelf lives are comparable and it's just a few days long. And by the time the truffle is a week old, it's lost most of its aroma. Even even under refrigeration.
+
+[27:41] Even in refrigeration, uh and regardless of what species it is, but there are exceptions. I mean, we've we've managed to uh keep truffles in great condition for ten days or two weeks, it can happen. And the storage conditions make a huge difference in how long the truffle lasts. What's the optimum condition? Well, uh a truffle is alive and it needs oxygen, you need to let them breathe.
+
+[28:03] Uh but if you give it too much oxygen, it'll expire more quickly. So it's uh it's regulating uh the oxygen and CO2 in the container where you're storing them that will extend the the shelf life. So we keep them in like a Tupperware container in the refrigerator with the paper towel underneath to absorb excess moisture. That's another thing. You need to keep the surface of the truffle dry.
+
+[28:27] Or it'll just start to like uh just start to go soft and crazy, right? Right. You may have noticed that with your black truffles, they got wet looking. You have to blot them dry every day. Some got wet looking and some didn't.
+
+[28:39] Yeah, it's like you know, you couldn't tell. You know what I mean? Um but com like commercially, is there like can you can extend it by tightly controlling the oxygen in the environment or no? You know, one of one of our speakers at the Oregon Truffle Festival had had a patent on an edible film that just uh limited the oxygen supply to the truffle and extended the shelf life. When you say extended though, but extended it at maximum quality, or is it like extended it at okay quality?
+
+[29:04] In other words, are you saying that like you're gonna get the perfect experience or you're gonna get like 80% of the experience once you've extended the shelf life? Well, that's a great question. I don't know the answer. Yeah. Um so when you're talking like you only have a couple of days, like how fast are these things getting to market?
+
+[29:23] In other words, can you enjoy these things on the East Coast, or is this like a you know West Coaster done kind of a situation? I do think truffles are the kind of food that it's it's their best experience to at the source. So it's the kind of food you need to travel for. But we can definitely get a good quality truffle to the east coast in a in a day. But is that something you're interested in?
+
+[29:44] Are you interested in extending the range, or are you more interested in promoting tourism to Oregon? Oh, both. We'd we'd love to have a thriving truffle industry in New York. What do you think about the pecan truffle? You like those things?
+
+[29:58] We definitely invite people to come to Oregon to experience hunting them and experiencing them for source. There's one interesting phenomenon. When you're using a dog to find the Oregon white truffles in particular, there's this tough of minky aroma that comes out of the grounds that only lasts a few minutes. Right when you get it out, you mean? I'm sorry?
+
+[30:16] Right when you get it out? Right when you get it out. It's this beautiful aroma that only lasts a very, very short time. Huh. Can you capture it in alcohol?
+
+[30:26] You might be able to. Uh a lot of the aroma compounds are soluble in alcohol. What do you what do you think uh before before we uh before I forget, what do you think of the pecan truffle? You're a competitor down uh down east there. Do you like those things or no?
+
+[30:40] Well, actually, uh we have a customer who's the first uh commercial grower of pecan truffles on inoculated trees. And that's in Southeast Georgia. So no, they're not competitors. We we actually sell pecan trees with pecan truffles on their roots. I think the pecan truffles are very good.
+
+[30:56] The smell is like malt balls. It's not particularly powerful, but it is attractive. Huh. Yeah, okay. So you're not you're you're like you're not a huge fan, is what I'm hearing.
+
+[31:05] You're like, you're like, they look good from a mycologist's point of view, but not your favorite culinary truffle. I think they're great. I I you'll never hear me express a preference from one truffle over another. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, my last name's Arnold, and they found a truffle in the Arnold Arboretum.
+
+[31:20] And uh the I don't know whether you I don't I don't know whether you know um the the person, Matthew Smith, who wrote the article, yeah. And he said that, and I I'd like to get your opinion on this, because you when I spoke on the phone with you uh a couple months ago, you said that there's undoubtedly truffle species in Connecticut where I am. And uh he writes, New England's acidic soil, harsh winters, and year-round precipitation are in quotes not optimal for truffles. At least not the European varieties that people usually eat. Is that true that like uh New England soil, like we're gonna have them, but probably not delicious ones, or do you disagree with his assessment?
+
+[31:57] I do disagree with this assessment. I think it's uh certainly the winters are cold, too cold for in the northeast too cold for tubermelanosporum. But there's still the tuber borkee that was found in the Arnold Arborinum. Uh this you know introduced species. Um and so we ha some of those European truffles are already living and fruiting in the Northeast.
+
+[32:20] Um and then they're they're native species. There's tuber canaliculatum and tuber leonia that both live in the northeast naturally. You actually inoculated some trees up in uh in uh at Stone Barnes, right? Well, you're right. We shipped some trees with uh tuber Stephen, the Burgundy truffle.
+
+[32:35] And how did they work out or no? Are they growing? That was they were planted just a year ago, and uh I'd love to go visit them. I don't know how they're doing. Listen, if you ever come out to uh in the Connecticut area, I'll take you know, come up and I want you to find whatever truffles we have here.
+
+[32:50] You have an open invite to come find whatever like I say, we have uh hemlocks, we have uh three or four varieties of hickory, three or four varieties of oak, mostly of the red slash black oak group. Uh so you know, anyway, they are any of any of those trees, in fact, all of those trees do have truffles moving on their roots. I would love to find truffles in Central Park. I know they're there. Well, why not you should do it?
+
+[33:16] Do you ever come to New York? You you know I uh you could bring my dog to. I actually just heard a lecture about a uh a mycologist in in New Hampshire doing a study on truffles, you know, listen, next time you's finding unbelievable numbers of truffles in New York, we'll take my dog up to Central Park and you can uh, you know, show him where to show him where to look out. Um I I should be clear, there are hundreds of species of truffles and only a few that have culinary value. Well, that's the thing, like so when you say only if you have culinary value, they all have some sort of smell, right?
+
+[33:46] Obviously, or they wouldn't be found. But you're saying a lot of the smells are unpleasant, or they're just not strong enough to have uh culinary value? Some of them are unpleasant. Uh some of them are are really offensive, horrible smells. They're kinds of things that flies would love.
+
+[34:01] Uh others are uh really interesting smells like the juicy fruit gum, but that's not a truffle that I think would ever have any culinary value. Why not like why not like uh I mean people like candy cap mushrooms because they're sweet, right? And they have like those candy kind of aromas, like why not? In other words, like m my whole point is is that you shouldn't try to have a uh you shouldn't try to have something pretend that it's something else, right? But like maybe it has some sort of use on its own, no?
+
+[34:27] Oh, absolutely. Oh, there's there's lots of truffles that are unrelated to the to the tuber species and the tantium and desert truffles. They're fundamentally different that also have wonderful aromas. They g it definitely pair well with a lot of foods. So what's the price by what's the going price for the Oregon truffles?
+
+[34:47] Well, that's interesting, and now that we're we've introduced dogs, we've seen a price increase by about a factor of ten. So the price is bifurcated. The bulk of the truffles are still harvested with rakes and their prices are are low. You can probably buy either species for a hundred and fifty dollars a pound. And how much is like a a golf ball size uh black truffle?
+
+[35:07] How much is that weigh? How many to the pound? Oh, let's say it's that's a tenth of a pound. Okay, so that's ten bucks. With the dog harvested truffles are are selling for prices comparable to tumor Milano spore.
+
+[35:19] So it's ten dollars for a raked golf ball and it's a hundred dollars for a hunted golf ball. Uh that would be right. All right, cool. Um I look forward to uh meeting you and we'll talk more about it. Uh no one called in their their uh truffle by the way, why actually do have a truffle.
+
+[35:38] We have a truffle related question? Uh let's let's do it. Let's do it. Are they on the phone or they're on uh on the line. All right.
+
+[35:43] Uh caller, you're on the air with uh with uh Dr. Uh La Fever. Hey David's Alvin Schultz in uh Houston. How are you? Nice.
+
+[35:50] So uh so Charles, I'll let you know. Alvin Schultz, friend of ours uh in Texas believes that Oregon truffles are uh this is a show parlance, you'll have to excuse us, enemies of quality. Uh and so Alvin, go ahead. So so I've been I've been rethinking that statement. It might have been harsh.
+
+[36:07] I think I would agree with you on uh I think it's a different product, right? And I guess my question for the doctor is uh, you know, how do you find a good reputable Oregon truffle dealer that's harvesting with dogs versus the uh the poorly harvested product? My my experience with Oregon truffles in the past is not great, especially compared to the European uh counterparts that I think all all dog animal harvested. Charles, did you hear that? Uh d I it's really rough to hear it.
+
+[36:38] But I think I understood the question is how do you find a a good truffle dealer who uh uses the dog harvested truffles because the college experiences that organ truffles really just don't perform as well as the European species. Correct. Yeah, specifically for a reputable dealer for Oregon truffles. Yeah, reputable dealer for Oregon truffles. You got anyone?
+
+[36:58] Uh I do. Um and uh I know them personally, not the name of their company. So uh uh there's a harvester named John Getz, G-E-T-Z, who I would refer to anybody. Um he's exclusively uses dogs. And it it's it goes beyond that, not just using dogs for the quality control, but then grading the truffles to the point where what you're receiving is all good.
+
+[37:24] So that's his company is one that I can recommend there in Florence, Oregon. G G E T Z an individual. Have you tried rotovapping truffle at all? Me? No.
+
+[37:37] Yeah. No, I haven't done any distillation work with it because my my rotovap uh since we closed the bar down, it's been p is packed. Uh but you know, I'd love to try that sometime. Have you uh professor, have you done distillation work with truffles? Well, you certainly could.
+
+[37:52] Uh the thing is the truffle is continuously giving off more and more aroma. So you don't really want to kill it. If you want to capture that aroma, uh you might not want to heat it or freeze it or do anything. You want to leave it intact and healthy and alive, and somehow just capture the the stream of gas coming off of it. Well we can distill at basically we can distill it at room temperature in a rotovap.
+
+[38:19] So we do vacuum distillation and you're not heating it at all. The question is, is would the would the bath and so Alman what I would do is I would basically uh put like an excluder almost and put the truffle in between the alcohol vapor and the um put the truffle between the alcohol vapor and you know, in other words, have your alcohol in your distillation flask and then have like a bump flask there that you shove the truffle into and then do the evaporation with the alcohol going through it so you could capture this stuff without actually having to bathe the truffle in alcohol which would might you know hose it down but I would remember so so uh Charles you'll correct me if I'm wrong like how long can it survive in an oxygen depleted environment because rotovap is basically in a vacuum so it's going to be in a vacuum environment for I don't know 35 40 minutes at at the minimum is that going to totally kill it right there or will it last for a while in a vacuum environment you wouldn't want to subject it to so much vacuum that it damages the tissue but I think it could survive for a while in that in those conditions. You might need to periodically refresh the oxygen to keep the truffle alive so it continues to produce its aroma. But I think it would be fine to do that. So Dave you're saying you're saying pass the vapor through it almost like a patuga distillation where they're hanging the the chicken crust, right?
+
+[39:37] Well exactly I mean what I guess what Charles is saying is that you have this truffle, you spent the money on it, it's going to continue to make aroma for you know for several days. So you want to continue to capture that aroma for several days rather than actually cutting it into it and end basically ending that truffle's aroma production right away by either cutting it and consuming it like we do classically when you could be capturing it over a long period of time. And so I guess what I'm saying is yeah if you did it if you bathed it in alcohol it might kill it. Who knows? I don't know.
+
+[40:06] Uh where you know would you whereas if it's just if it's in uh you know in in an alcohol vapor environment for you know, 30 minutes, and maybe then you let it come back up and let it bring its aroma back and do it again, you could possibly capture a lot more of the aroma. In fact, you could almost probably do it the the vapor equivalent of a soxelet extraction where you're you know, you you could probably use yesterday's truffle booze and then redistill that again through the through the you know the the reoxygenated truffle like three, four times to get to really concentrate the heck out of it. I don't know. I'm just like saying like the kinds of things that I might try if I had my my roto vap up and running. Uh it may not even require your rotovap in the sense that the truffle aroma will naturally just dissolve in the alcohol.
+
+[40:58] So we we actually have a a partner, the Oregon Truffle Festival has a partner in Bowro and Distillery that's making a truffle vodka. And they can do it in two ways. One is to just set the truffle next to the alcohol and the aroma accumulates in the alcohol. The other way is to extract the aroma from the truffle by immersing it in alcohol, but you'll get more aroma the first. Because it can produce it for a longer period of time.
+
+[41:20] Right. Right. Presumably you'll get a higher instantaneous concentration through maceration, but you're saying that the net effect over several days of letting it sit above the alcohol is a higher end concentration. Right, right, exactly. And also there's that problem of the mushroom equality, the one oxen three all when you macerate the truffle.
+
+[41:38] What about has that person done any tests with uh like convection? Like actually like you know, convecting the surface of the of the head space to try to get uh you know a faster, more complete um aroma removal from the from the truffle or no? I don't know their process exactly, but um I'm not aware that they've done it. That's what I would stir the hell up. Yeah, well, that's the thing.
+
+[42:05] Remember there's a crazy, that crazy lemon cello person who never lets the peels touch the thing, and it was like all the all the buzz of the lemon cello internets uh a couple of years ago. Yeah, I'm sure you could do the same thing, although I think a lot of the components in limoncello aren't nearly as volatile and aromatic as a truffle. So you probably have better shot with a truffle. You're saying fresh air, or do you think that alco uh alcohol vapor is gonna hurt it too? The alcohol vapor does accumulate in the truffle.
+
+[42:55] Hmm. So hmm, well if anyone wants to send me some organ truffle, my rotor is up and running. And uh I'd be happy to uh to just spin those around for you. Yeah, yeah. I got a quick eggnog update for you if you want if you want that today, or I can call back another week.
+
+[43:10] No, give me some eggnog. Nastassi loves eggnog. And I tasted the George Washington and Michael Rollman's recipe from early 2015, January 2015. Uh ruleman uh update is that it tastes like eggnog. It tastes better, but not so dramatic.
+
+[43:32] Uh washing, which is I think around 12 and a half or 11 and a half percent, get funk like paper brown. Wait, Alvin, you're you're you're break you're breaking up. What happened to Washington's, which is a lower proof? Uh gets get real funky, like uh like here, uh fermented milk and goat cheese boo cheese, but if you shake it over ice, it's not on putting, but probably wouldn't drink too. So you're saying it's an acquired taste, much like uh much like uh uh meat, like g oh, game meat that's been aged for a long time.
+
+[44:02] Uh I'm not familiar with that, but but uh the tasting method I definitely get is like cofier yogurt. Hmm. Yeah, I don't know that I want to pound that. See I'm not an eggnog guy. I like eggnog.
+
+[44:11] Nastasi loves eggnog. I like eggnog. I don't know that I want like a goatee barnyardy egg eggnog. I'm looking at Nastasia's face. Yeah, so it's a one and done, it's not a pounder.
+
+[44:25] It's one of those things that people wrinkle at her face and go, interesting. Yeah. Correct. Yeah, nice. But Ruben ru Romans is aging nicely, so uh you know, I'll come back next year with the uh the uh fourth year of the vertical.
+
+[44:38] Alright, cool. Yeah, let us know. I I always want I always want eggnog updates, as does uh, you know, many of the may like Nick Bennett does it, uh Piper Christensen, like a bunch of people we know are big on the on the aging eggnog. So yeah, keep bringing it back. Yeah, maybe I'll send you guys some actually if you want to test it.
+
+[44:53] It's it's it's obviously rim temperature stable at this point, so yeah, I'd love to try it. I'll try it. Uh no, s uh send it to uh like i you have it Nastasi's email, just like send her one. I'll give you my personal address. It's fine.
+
+[45:08] And then ship it there, yeah, but not not over the air. She even she's not that crazy to give her address over the air. Um but um yeah, yeah, I'd love to try it. We'll try it on the air. All right.
+
+[45:19] All right, cool. Um, so Nastasia, do I have time for a couple of to take a couple of m I mean? I think you should finish up with Charles and Charles, Charles, stay I I I gotta c I gotta people have these questions, no? We're gonna get all the questions. I have a question on uh pressure cooking vegetables, on salting, I have a question on rabbits.
+
+[45:38] Luckily, John's question on rabbits, the rabbits aren't coming back for another couple of months, so I can I can wait on his rabbit question. And then I have uh the the question is he has all these rabbits and he lives in a suburban. He wants to catch them and eat them, and should he do that or should he not? I have one on the on the color of cooking meat, which I think is interesting. And actually, uh I'm doing a lot of work on that now from my next book for the uh low temperature book, the color of meat in cooking and low temperature is like super important.
+
+[46:04] Should I do so uh Charles, any of those topics interest you? We can uh answer one of those questions and the rest I can put off till next week? Uh I'm not sure that means I'm really pertaining to truffle. No, yeah, they're not they're not truffle. What do you say?
+
+[46:22] There's another way to incorporate truffle aroma and alcohol, which is to add some something fatty. I actually have a partner hopefully brewery that's truffle beer that's very authentic working behavior. Yeah, well, fat washing obviously is a technique that uh yeah, we all know know and love. So you're saying basically do almost like an enflourage, like uh have it transfer to the oil because it can stay over the oil head space indefinitely without damaging the truffle, and then mix that with the alcohol and then take the fat off. You can get a fairly you think you can get a fairly um uh efficient extraction that way?
+
+[47:05] Yes, I think so. I actually I think the oil is the aroma is more soluble in oil than it is in alcohol. Um well, obviously, I guess truffle oil, right? So then you fat wash the truffle oil. You what do you want to?
+
+[47:17] Everybody who listens to this show knows that truffle oil is garbage and an enemy of quality and just like the worst thing. You actually say that you have good ones, but like the commercial stuff. Do you do you feel the need to say something negative about it, or do you just accept that everyone here already knows that it's a garbage product? I mean it is authentic truffle oil. It does exist.
+
+[47:35] I I don't know who to refer you to to get it though. Yeah. Yeah. Um usually a chef makes it themselves. What do you say?
+
+[47:43] Usually a chef makes their own truffle oil. Right. Um the authentic truffle oils are not putting bubbles and sold in the store. All right. Well, Charles, I look forward to meeting you next week, and McGee and uh mean and I are gonna eat the heck out of some Oregon truffles and hopefully find some, maybe even get some of that minty smell right out of the ground.
+
+[48:01] I'll report back to cooking issues, but I gotta get I'll do one. I'll do the rabbits. I'll do rabbits. I thought you said that was the longest. It is, but it's like it's also the easiest one to answer.
+
+[48:08] The rest of them take a lot longer. So John writes in uh from New Jersey uh hello, Dave and Cooking Issues crew. Every year when spring arrives, those of us in the suburbs face a scourge of an R-selected mammalian population boom. The beasts we deal with may look all cute and cuddly, but in reality they are ravenous rodents with no regard for modern suburban homeowner priorities. I speak, of course, of the eastern cotton tail rabbit.
+
+[48:29] They annihilate our carefully tended gardens, destroy our nascent fruit and vegetable patches, and leave poop all over our lawns and patios, and they breed like rabbits. Yeah, yeah. Uh well, last year a local fox was able to keep the population down. This year I'm gonna take things into my own hands. I've considered going straight up Carl Spackler, which is by the way, the guy from uh Caddy Shack, Bill Murray's character from Caddyshack.
+
+[48:50] Uh, Carl Spackler and dynamite in the neighborhood, but I think it might be more delicious to trap the rabbits and save the meat for culinary use. In doing my research, I've seen various comments online about how suburban rabbits are not safe to eat and that the meat will be overrun with parasites and other non-good things. This doesn't seem right to me. Are rabbits really that different from other wild game? That's my question.
+
+[49:11] What's your advice on safe and delicious methods of slaughtering, handling, and cooking these rabbits? I was thinking of freezing the meat before low temp cooking them to paste it, but wasn't sure if that was overkill or not. I'm also slightly uh worried about freaking out my wife and kids and all our friends with this project, uh, but with a delicious result, I expect they'll get over it. Well, okay. Uh thanks, uh John from uh New Jersey.
+
+[49:31] Okay, uh, first of all, uh though they're not gonna get over it. Let me just tell you this, they're not gonna get over it. People, like some people will get over it. Like if you grew up in a hunting household uh where people like go out and hunt things, then they're gonna be fine with it. If you didn't grow up in that environment, uh a lot of times they're like, meat comes from a store, meat is raised for being killed, and you can't get people around it.
+
+[49:53] It's just weird. You have to suss out your own family on this, but if they if they say ahead of time that they're not gonna be okay with it, then believe me, they're not gonna be okay with it. Uh I mean I'm okay with it. Now, your second thing is what's the problem with uh rabbits? Now, I also looked online for this, and some people are like wildly crazy worried that like somehow suburban uh, you know, rabbits are like licking motor oil and like you know, I don't know, I don't know, doing some sort of like terrible uh stuff.
+
+[50:23] But if you're willing to eat the products that you grow where you are, I don't think rabbits make a habit of licking up motor oil or or like cats, like eating ethylene glycol, or if you know, uh, you know, with antifreeze that cats eat and it kills them. But I you know, I don't I don't know of anything like that. I think that stuff is basically hogwash. What is true is that rabbits in general can have um uh tularemia, and you want to be careful about it. So uh tularemia, in fact, uh they get it from tick bites uh and and and I guess there's other vectors, but tick bites is one of them.
+
+[50:58] And it is a um it is easily transmissible from a rabbit to a human being, and there have been cases of this happening. Uh and now if you thoroughly cook the animal, you get rid of it, but it it it is possible to catch it while skinning the rabbit. So you have to be careful. What you typically do when you're testing it, and and I looked it up online. Um, you know, I looked up you know, hunting rabbits tularemia because people who hunt rabbits a lot, like this is something they're worried about.
+
+[51:25] They're like, look out for rabbits that look lethargic or sick, and then when you when you eviscerate the rabbit, you look at the liver, and if the liver is kind of spotted or speckled, that's a good sign that that rabbit has tularemia. Now you can and there's pictures online, you can you can see in general. As for how to slaughter them, because you're not hunting them, you're trapping them. Uh, I would go to uh Adam Dan. I I have never slaughtered a rabbit, but it it it was until very recently the last animal that would be slaughtered right where you were gonna eat it.
+
+[51:55] So butcher shops that still wouldn't slaughter uh pigs or uh or sheep or cows uh you know nearer where their shop is would still slaughter um rabbits uh in their butcher shop. And this would happen up until fairly recently, even after, way after it was illegal, just because it was very kind of simple to do, and it was considered uh it was a thing that many butchers did. Uh that said, uh I don't know how to do it, but there is a book on it. Uh Adam Danforth's uh butchering poultry, rabbit, lamb, uh, goat, and pork has a whole section on how to uh properly uh and humanely slaughter a rabbit and how to eviscerate it. And I highly recommend his book.
+
+[52:34] He has another one, a whole one on beef, and it's eye-opening on the procedures of how it works. And if you get that book, which is not that expensive on Amazon, the soft cover version of it, you can get an idea of whether you really want to go through with it or not, because he goes through all the steps of what needs to happen. So the two things I would look up are uh are the tularemia, how to check for it, how to prevent uh, you know, you getting it while you're skinning it, because I think it I think certain things can get aerosolized, like blood and stuff when you're skinning it, and then that's where it happens. Uh it again, you can cook it uh and be safe. And then on how to butcher and slaughter it, um, you know, go to Adam Danforth.
+
+[53:09] And then if you still want to cook with it later, I'm gonna be working on rabbit eventually, but probably not for a month or two for uh my book. So come back, hit me then with some recipes for rabbit doing low temp. Uh thanks to uh Charles LaFever from uh the the Oregon Truffle Festival and his company is uh it's truffletree.com is or Truffletree is his website. Uh but uh I forget the uh the what are you still there, Professor uh Doctor? What's the name of the company?
+
+[53:36] It's New World Truffier. New World Truffiere, and and Truffle Tree, Truffletree.com or dot org is your is your website. Exactly. Truffle, yeah, truffletree.com. And uh thanks, and we'll see you next week on cooking issues.
+
+[54:01] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[54:21] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[54:46] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from pretty late this time, but actually we're only doing a half hour show, I think this time, but eh, from roughly 12 to you know roughly 1245, like uh, you know, 1255. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:36] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? Yeah, we got Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? I'm good.
+
+[0:42] How are you doing? Doing alright. Um, oh, we just got some birch syrup in from Zan. It says, hey cooking issues, greetings from Alaska. Here is some birch syrup from my hometown.
+
+[0:53] Enjoy. And then uh, I guess they're from Homer because it says Homer Couple Taps tree, so I assume that's Homer Alaska, yeah? Yeah. Now, the only birch syrup I've ever had before was, and I think I mentioned this on the air, which is maybe why uh Zan sent it to us. The only birch syrup I've had before was flawed.
+
+[1:10] And uh by flawed I mean like extremely acidic, as though something either the sap was extremely high acid or something had grown in it, and I didn't know whether that's just the way what you hear crinkling in the background is not mouth noises. Please don't be afraid, cooking issues, people. It's Nastasia unwrapping the uh birch syrup. It's wrapped in bubble wrap and aluminum foil to prevent the alien rays from getting to it. One thing I have to say, Zan, it takes a lot of uh guts to wrap stuff in aluminum foil because you never know.
+
+[1:38] Some lunatic might be like, I can't see through it with my machine, so I'm gonna open it up. You know what I mean? Yeah. Did I ever tell you about the time I ordered that espresso machine, and they didn't drain the boiler? And they'd originally packed it okay, but then when they shipped it to me, a little water had dripped out.
+
+[1:55] So UPS completely unpacked it, and when they packed it, they were like, ah, it's wet. And they threw the entire thing back in the box without the packing, and then rattled it around over and over and over again. And when they showed it up, every single panel was shattered and broken. I got that espresso machine basically for free. And I'm still using it to this day.
+
+[2:13] Ooh, this looks nice. Um take a little taste here. Mmm, that's good. It is actually tart, but this one is not flawed. So birch syrup must be inherently tartar than what's it called?
+
+[2:27] Maple. But I think this is delicious. This is a much superior product to the uh one that I that I tried before. You gotta dip your finger in that? It's pure syrup, Stas.
+
+[2:36] She's drinking. I'm not gonna go there. I know. I'm not gonna go there. So what do you think?
+
+[2:43] Tart. What do you think though? It tastes good. I like it. I think it's delicious.
+
+[2:46] And it looks to be about, I have to test it, it looks to be about 66 bricks. And the company, for those of you that are uh keeping track of such things, is Bridge Creek uh birch syrup. Uh 100% pure birch syrup made in Homer, Alaska. Well, thanks so much. Uh always love doing a uh uh taste uh test.
+
+[3:03] Uh tomorrow I fly out to Portland to have some truffles, so more on that next week when I'm back. Uh anything good going on, Nastasia? No. Nothing good. Have we talked about the house guest Olympics?
+
+[3:16] No. All right. This is something I think that uh now, this is something that Jen and I did back when we were in our early 20s. Uh, but I think it's just as valid now. And I meant to talk to Nastasi about this, it's just super valid for you, uh, especially for Nastasia because she has so many poor house guests.
+
+[3:31] But uh Jen and I used to we always wonder when people come over, like who raised you? You know what I mean? Like, where did you come from? Like, how did you show up at my house completely empty-handed, make a huge mess, and then just hightail it out and like leave me with all this garbage, right? Like, how did that happen?
+
+[3:50] Right? Uh Dave, you have this problem? Do you invite people over to your house? Yeah, but uh I've never really been stiffed like that. Not that I can recall.
+
+[3:57] No, you have good uh house. So here's what you here's what you do. There's there's dinner, but there's also people who come and stay at stay at your place. And so what we did is we started kind of the house guest Olympics, and we would rank people when they came over. And we didn't tell people that we were ranking them, maybe a little bit we did, but it's like we were like ranking people, and we really got a sense for kind of who people were with this kind of a house guest Olympics.
+
+[4:18] Like the the person who clearly wins the house guest Olympics is my cousin Nathan, who whenever he shows up, Nathan, yeah, he shows up with stuff. The guy doesn't like dessert, so like at the end of dinner when everyone's eating dessert, he's in the in the dish like area cleaning all of the dishes, and so he shows up, brings you stuff, has good conversation, doesn't talk about stuff that pisses everybody off, like is we'll talk. You know how when you have that one person not like cooking issues. Not like cooking issues. You know how that one person, there's always that one person that you invite who doesn't say anything, and you're like, oh my god, who's gonna talk to that one person doesn't say anything?
+
+[4:55] You know who that guy is? Nathan! Nathan's that guy that will go talk to that person at your house and not make it awkward that there's that person in the corner that's just basically, you know, capillary action sucking all of your wine even out of the bottles. You don't even know where it's going, but they're in the corner, like sucking up all the wine and not saying anything to anyone. Nathan's the guy that'll talk to them and clean your dishes.
+
+[5:15] So that is like, that's like gold medal, like 10.0 floor routine, like house guest Olympics. But I recommend to all you people out there that you start keeping track of the house guest Olympics, and then if you let people know, maybe people get better. Maybe good people get better. Doesn't that sound nice and sassy? You should rate all your friends.
+
+[5:30] Would they all fail? No. No, they're not as bad as you as you think. If they're not as bad as I think, that means they're not as bad as you tell me. Yeah, but no, but it's like Nastasia he says something, they're not as bad as you think.
+
+[5:47] The only thing I know about them is what Nastasia tells me. They were bad eight years ago. Uh-huh. So you're saying they've graduated? No offense to the Yellowtail Corporation, but they're they they've graduated beyond.
+
+[5:57] Yes. Yes. They're they no longer come over to your house and say, I'm not bringing any wine because uh I'm not drinking today, and then they drink wine anyway. That hasn't happened in a while. Many years.
+
+[6:08] Like two weeks? No. All right. Anyway. House guests Olympics.
+
+[6:11] So uh we have uh some questions in. Um Vincent wrote in from uh Michigan regarding salting. We didn't deal with any the only thing we dealt with was rabbits, right? Yeah. Right.
+
+[6:23] Right. Okay. Uh I only recently found out about cooking issues and been listening through the back catalog. I'm only at episode 120, but everything's been good. Uh by the way, what episode are we on now?
+
+[6:34] I have no idea. Dave, what episode is this? Uh let me check the archives one sec. Yeah. No.
+
+[6:39] Uh first I would like to thank you uh for opening my eyes to the a wonder that is the music of Daryl Hall and John Oates. That's straight out to you, Nastasia. Although you went to go see them in concert. Bad. Well, bad for what reason?
+
+[6:51] Were they f actually bad, or you just they disappointed you because he kept on trying to be younger and hitting on the women? And uh, what's it called? Jamming. Oh, you hate jamming? Yeah.
+
+[7:01] You hate all forms of jam? No, I mean they're not a jam band. As far as you know, is that the first time you ever saw them live? Yeah. Well, how do you know that they're not a jam band?
+
+[7:10] Well, don't jam bands like if a jam band's a jam band, it's played like that on the radio, right? No, I mean they don't use jam bands don't usually get played on the radio. Well, like the Allman Brothers. Wait, is the question whether Hall of Notes is a jam band? The H the question is why would you assume that Hall I mean, I would assume that they're not, because they're like 80s, just like you know, 80s.
+
+[7:30] Like I assume that they only come out of like boombox stereo speakers. That's what I assume that they come out of. But I mean, like, no, I mean, like people uh what you hear from the Allman Brothers is like rambling man. That song's only two minutes and thirty five seconds. Grateful Dead is not played on the radio.
+
+[7:45] Yes, it is. What radio plays the Grateful Dead? They didn't when I was a kid. Yeah, they play them. Like what?
+
+[7:50] They play like the shorter songs, like like Touch of Grey or No, A Touch of Grey was like their lead yeah, that's the least Grateful Dead song on Earth, Touch of Grey. That was like after like they had already done anything they were gonna do. You ever hear like you never hear like Casey Jones on the radio, do you? What radio? Not when I was growing up.
+
+[8:08] I did back when I was younger. Not now. Right. No offense, radio people. But the point is that when I was growing up.
+
+[8:16] What's wrong with radio? When I was growing up, nothing. When I was growing up, when like when the Grateful Dead was actually playing, you know what I mean? And not just like doing like, you know, reunions when they're all like half of them are dead back when they were actually a band and no one had died yet miraculously. That stuff was not on the radio at all.
+
+[8:33] You know what I mean? But anyway, I don't know. Do they play fish on the radio? Not that I know of. Not the stations I listen to.
+
+[8:41] Dave Matthews? Yes. That they play him. That's a jam band. Right, but do they play long, like 20 minute songs on the radio?
+
+[8:47] 20 minutes songs. No, I don't think anybody plays 20 minute songs radio. 10 minute on the radio. Yes. On regular radio.
+
+[8:55] Yes. On radio that these people out here eating pizza would would uh listen to. I don't think hipsters listen to AMFM radio. They should. They should oh it's they should listen to AM only, but only in mono.
+
+[9:09] This is taking a weird turn. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Vincent was.
+
+[9:11] What was the actual question? Oh no, he just mentioned Hollow Notes, and so we're talking about music and Hall Notes. By the way. Oh, we've only gone through the preamble of the glitch. Little story, yeah.
+
+[9:19] Little story. Uh Nastasia Lopez, this is a classic Nastasia, by the way, uh, once bought tickets to see Billy Joel at one of his Madison Square Garden performances. And as anyone who knows us personally knows both fans of Billy Joel. We like Billy Joel. You know, I grew up close enough to Long Island.
+
+[9:35] Uh I don't know where Nastasia got her love of Billy Joel, but like, you know, I like I love myself and Billy Joel. Nastasia buys herself tickets, Dave. You'll like this. Ticket to go alone. So Nastasia buys a ticket, and then that's so adorable.
+
+[9:48] Then we're at an event together, literally working an event. And by the way, it was a garbage event. I don't even remember what it was. And uh she goes, Oh my god, I'm supposed to be at Billy Joel. I just missed the Billy Joel concert.
+
+[10:00] First of all, I didn't need her to be at the event. She could have gone to the Billy Joel concert. She knows it. She doesn't blame me for this. She has forgot she had the concert.
+
+[10:07] But here's the kicker, Dave. This is this is pure Nastasia Lopez. Nastasia will never buy again a Billy Joel ticket, even though she desperately wants to go, but she's gonna punish herself because no, I already bought that ticket and I didn't get to see it. So now she's never gonna allow herself to see Billy Joel again. Even and this what reminds me is Billy Joel, uh a friend of mine, Luci, you know, Lucia Inguido, went to go see him last week at the garden.
+
+[10:33] Said it said he did some jams, but said he was great, still good. So maybe someday, maybe someday I'll just I'll buy you a ticket, or maybe some like cooking issues admirer will send you a Billy Joel ticket to the Yeah, I don't want anybody to pay for it. But Nastasi, the only way you get to go see Billy Joel in concert is a ticket or the hell has an extra ticket? Lots of people. Whatever, whatever.
+
+[10:56] I don't again, I don't know how we got it. Oh, another thing. Did you know that Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus is closing? Do you know that nobody cares but me? Nobody cares about me.
+
+[11:06] Are she gonna go? I don't think so. I might go to there's it's at Barclay Center in like February and March. I need to find someone who cares to go with me. When's the last time you went to the circus?
+
+[11:16] That's one of those things that you just forget even exists anymore. When now I guess it doesn't. When Booker was very small, uh, I took him. But I used to I've I used my grandparents lived in uh right up near Sarasota, so they took me to see them during the uh during their practice when they weren't on the road because that's where both troops would train. Like they used, you know, they were like uh a railroad only show for a long time.
+
+[11:37] So in New York, they used to uh march all of their animals from the railroad depot in Brooklyn or Queens maybe through the um uh midtown tunnel, and then they would walk from the midtown tunnel over to the garden where where it was uh where it was going on, and so you could go in the middle of the night and watch the entire circus parade all of the animals through the tunnel and out. It was nutty, like miniature horses. Good business. Anyway, and end of an era. Uh we should get to the question running out of time.
+
+[12:10] Okay. So here are the questions they have. I read this article, and it's it's from Food and Wine, uh written by uh Oliver Schwanner Albright uh years ago, like four or five years ago. Where the authors uh you can find it on the uh on the internet. It's called The Juicy Secret to Seasoning Meat, where the author's experiment resulted in the conclusion that different meats or cooking methods require different timings for salting the meat for best results.
+
+[12:33] Does this match your experience and knowledge? Is there any sort of best practice guideline for which kinds of meat or which cooking method should have salt applied at certain times? Um and then second question was I had once read that uh Dongpo uh pork belly where the I once had uh Red Cooked Dunkpo pork belly where the it was fat was so soft and tender that had almost the texture of creme caramel. How can I achieve this? Uh keep up the good word cooking issues tea.
+
+[12:58] All right, so uh let's go in reverse order. For the pork belly, it's been a long time since I've made that, but uh, if it's not soft, I think you have two things. Most people who do it, right, they do like a lot of kind of scraping of the skin beforehand, and some people will even uh needle it, and this lets like some stuff um kind of come out of it, and then they do your initial, typically a blanch step, um, and then after the blanch step, then comes the first, which is kind of a braised slash steam over a bed of like scallions and ginger with the uh rock sugar and the red and the uh the dark and the light soy sauce, right? Um and then after that, uh so the crappy recipes, which probably aren't as good, just do that until the kind of the meat is done. The good recipes then take it out of that, put it in an individual steamer, and then steam the bee Jesus out of it with some of the juice, but so that it's no longer evaporating anymore.
+
+[13:51] And they do that until fundamentally the fat is totally kind of broken down. And uh, you know, everyone has their own recipe, whether they do it skin side up or skin side down. Most people I know uh do it skin side down, then flip it skin side up, although I saw a place that did it that flipped it three times, right? So I think a lot of it just has to do with that secondary steam step. I don't know how important the initial uh scraping or needling of it is.
+
+[14:14] Uh but it's a good product. You like do you like pork belly when the skin is not crunchy, Stas, or do you only like it when skin's crunchy? When it's crunchy. Unless it's like in a in a steamed bun or something like this. But you don't like just the big chunk of red pork?
+
+[14:29] I do. I love that stuff. Dave, you you like you like the gooey pork belly fat, or do you like it only when that's the skin's been crispified? Yeah, I guess to paraphrase Hollow Notes, I could go for that. You could go for that?
+
+[14:40] Yeah, why not? No kid well, they said no can do. That's why I said paraphrase. Well, it's more like antiphrase. Nastasia's more paraphrasing.
+
+[14:46] She's like no can do. There was a steel drum player playing that song on the 59th sheet. Oh hate steel drums. Yeah, I didn't know. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[14:53] Why do you hate steel drums? Is it because you hate uh Caribbean people? Or like that's that's quite a leap, but no. Why do you hate steel drums? Uh I don't know.
+
+[15:02] They just annoy me. Yep. What about when they have two different steel drums and they can play two different notes at once? Don't care. What about the fact that they make their own instruments?
+
+[15:12] That's pretty baller. I guess that's cool. I tried to make one once when I was a kid. Do you know what I was? Unsuccessful?
+
+[15:17] Like I was able to cut yourself. Uh no did I cut myself. I don't remember. I was very young, although I remember this. If you people, if you're gonna try to make your own steel drum, the most important thing is you have to be able to take the 55 gallon drum and then like kind of depress it out, right?
+
+[15:32] And that's kind of what I didn't do. I didn't have enough heat to really be able to bend that whole kind of drum thing out. But I spent the whole dang day doing it. And uh I just remember being really disappointed because as like, you know, an eleven year old, I was like, Man, steel drums are cool. But apparently you guys were like, Steel drums are for jerks and not cool, man.
+
+[15:53] Not cool. I don't know. Uh what is the I don't know what the cooking issues crowd thinks of the steel drums. Chat room, any thoughts? I don't know.
+
+[15:59] So to go back to uh the question of salting. Salting is both uh much easier and much more complicated than uh you'd think. Salting does a number of things. Uh salting obviously makes things uh taste better, right? So like so salt in general is good.
+
+[16:16] When you're talking about salting meats before or uh after or during, what you really wanna do is focus on what you're attempting to do with with the meat. So uh a very long of salting like a long time before where the salt actually gets to penetrate into the interior of the meat, right? For a meat that's going to be overcooked anyway. When I say overcooked, I mean cooked above uh rare or medium rare. Then in general, the salt is going to um allow the meat to hold on to more water, right?
+
+[16:47] So you're not only gonna season it, but you're gonna allow the meat to hold on to more water, it has more water absorption. However, uh it also has a um kind of firmer texture once it's been salted than it would otherwise. And this is due to a number of reasons. One, and it I I don't think it's primarily dehydration, I think it's primarily because you're um solubilizing some proteins that come out and form a gel uh with it, so it kind of firms up. So salting firms the meat.
+
+[17:15] And you can think about this very clearly if you think about when you salt a fish and you let it sit for a long time, the flesh gets a good bit firmer. The same thing happens when you're doing uh pork or a steak or or something like this. And so when I'm going to uh eat something that is rare or medium rare, uh, and I'm going to let it sit for a long time, right? Then I don't want to salt it more than about an hour or two before it's going to get eaten because I don't want the interior of that meat to firm up on me. Uh this is specifically with kind of low temperature cooking.
+
+[17:52] Um, uh if you're going to do it on the grill, right, then uh you can just undercook the inside a little bit more, and you could salt it way beforehand. It's probably not going to affect it too much. It'll be a little firmer, but it's not going to be a big deal. But once you cook the entire piece of meat up to, let's say, 55, uh, 55 and a half, it's not that it's overcooked if you salt it a long time before, but it's just a little bit firmer and it has a little bit less of that kind of um steak texture that rare, medium rare has, where it Stas, you know what I'm talking about, where it goes from that point of being kind of like where it still kind of moves independently. It feels kind of like, you know, like the way Cesare cooks it, it still feels like uh like m like me, and then it goes all of a sudden to being that cooked meat where it's like one piece now.
+
+[18:43] It doesn't kind of move independently. And it's that firming that happens when you salt uh far in advance on pieces of meat that that you want to have that uh texture on. And so those are the only real um things that I take into account. So that's you know, that's kind of the big uh that's kind of the big difference. So what happened is that person, uh, the one that they hated the most is they pre-salted the heck out, I think it's it's been two weeks since I read it, but they pre-salted the heck out of a pork loin, which is already kind of garbagey, uh garbage, a good piece of meat, but it's typically overcooked, and then they went ahead and overcooked it, and so they salted it, uh, they salted it all the way through.
+
+[19:24] Now it's already firm, and so it's gonna tend to be dry. I think I can't remember exactly how the pork loin was the one that that they had the difference in. Just think about it. This if you're gonna overcook it, then salting it in my mind is usually uh good the way to go because it's gonna hold on to more water. If you uh and it's going to get textured, if you need it to taste more rare and unadultered unadulterated, like pure steak, and you're going to cook it uh for hours and hours, low temp, then salt uh right before you're gonna sear it or something like this.
+
+[19:53] But that's basically what I do. Anyway. Anyone who disagrees with me, they're welcome to get on and disagree with me. Before you go, you want to take a call? Yeah, sure.
+
+[20:00] All right. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Chris from Green Zone in DC. How are you doing? Doing all right, what's going on?
+
+[20:07] Uh got a question. I have been using your milk washing technique for coffee-infused booze from liquid intelligence for a while, and it's always worked pretty well, except uh this last time, last night, I did it exactly as always, as written in the book, and the liquid basically didn't clarify. And so I'm trying to filter the booze out of the milk curves, and it's I've gone through like three coffee filters, and it's a giant pain in the butt. And I'm wondering what could have happened. Same recipe?
+
+[20:37] Yeah, exact same. Same milk? Yeah. Same type of milk. I mean, I'm using full, full like whole milk, but it might have been a different brand.
+
+[20:47] The only times I've had it really fail on me was I've used um ultra patch pasteurized milk. In fact, it was uh uh and it might there might be a range, right? So I'll give you an example. So like I I normally use regular pasteurized uh whole milk. Um but when I went to um Spain last time, they got me that wretched kind of boxed parmelot milk, which is like ultra highs, like sterilized milk.
+
+[21:14] And it did not work at all. So maybe there's some uh in between zone in the ultra pasteurizing zone where it doesn't um where it doesn't work, uh you know, where where it where it partially works, you know what I mean? This says pasteurized. It doesn't say ultra pasteurized, but it also says non-homogenized. So I don't know if that makes a difference.
+
+[21:38] That's interesting. I've never tried it with uh non-homogenized milk before. Um I'd be interested to try it with non-homogenized milk. But you say it did form a curd, but it just didn't curd very well. It's no, uh opposite actually happened.
+
+[21:53] The curds were much chunkier than usual. Huh. But it didn't fill. There was a lot of like normally when I do it, it forms a curd, and then I put it in the fridge overnight, and there's a clear layer of booze on top. The booze was cloudy.
+
+[22:07] Oh, so there was a curd layer, but the booze layer was still cloudy? Yeah. Huh. I wonder whether I wonder whether it's some sort of like uh extra excess fat in it from it not being homogenized. Could be.
+
+[22:23] Huh. Huh. I don't know. I'll have to test it with some uh non homogenized milk and see what's going on. But it could be that um it could be that the something about the fat not uh not coming.
+
+[22:38] Did it still function well, just didn't look right? Did it seem fattier? Um I've always filtered it through a coffee filter, and it usually I can you know filters out pretty quickly, but this time I've gone through three coffee filters and it's still not done. I hate coffee filters so much. I wish I could throw it into a centerfuge.
+
+[22:55] Um I funded the uh spinzall, so I hope it gets into production. Oh, me too, me too. We're working on we'll have some more announcements in the next couple of weeks, right, Stus? Yeah. Yeah, but you know, I I think it's I think it's looking I think it's looking better.
+
+[23:08] I think it's looking good. I think I think we're gonna make it happen. What do you think, Nastasia? I hope so. Yeah.
+
+[23:12] Uh but yeah, it makes milk. So when you do it, do you use whole milk, you said? I use whole milk, but I use whole like supermarket, like um mil you know, regular supermarket milk. Like so homogenized, pasteurized milk. I know it doesn't work with parmelot, and maybe it doesn't work with as well with um without centerfuge.
+
+[23:33] With non-homogenized, but it's something to check. And I like I say, I'd be interested in throwing it into a fuse to see whether it would spin out. Yeah, I mean I uh uh would imagine it would, but um all right. Well I guess next time I'll just try the uh regular homogenized stuff, bud. Cool.
+
+[23:48] Alrighty. Let me know. Hi man, thanks. All right, cool. Uh Nate Simon wrote in from Sacramento.
+
+[23:54] What? Do you need to get to your events or yeah, yeah, yeah. But let me let me just take a uh do a couple more. I'll like uh, you know, start late, end late. Uh I'm gonna show it one.
+
+[24:03] Well, oh yeah, yeah, I'll be no, I won't start. I won't end late, late, but I mean like you know, later than I need. All right. Okay. I'm a big fan of cooking vegetables.
+
+[24:09] This is from Simon, uh Nate Simon in Sacramento. Uh what do you think of Sacdown, Stasia? Fine. Fine. Uh sh she's like, I don't care about Sacramento.
+
+[24:18] Just speed it up. Uh that's the hand motion that you can't see that she's making. Um now you made me lose my place, see. I'm a big fan of cooking vegetables in the pressure cooker, which I then puree for soups. I do like the ability of the pressure cooker to caramelize the vegetables.
+
+[24:31] However, uh most recipes recommend adding a small amount of baking soda to facilitate the mired reaction. Remember though, you gotta keep straight the difference between caramelization, which is a sugar only thing in my yard, which is uh reducing sugar and and proteins, and we often say caramelized when we actually mean myard, uh, but like something like a carrot actually also has enough sugar in it that at higher temperatures anyway, actual caramelization can take place. And sugars, in fact, can caramelize on their own in uh a pressure cooker under the right circumstances, i.e., with baking soda. So in a pressure cooker with a high sugar item, there are act there is actually both myard reactions and caramelization reactions going on in a basic environment, i.e. alkaline environment, but just something to keep track of.
+
+[25:17] I find that even with small amounts of baking soda, less than 0.5%, I can still taste it. I call it the pretzel taste. Um I'm wondering if the baking soda is absolutely necessary. Could the vegetables just be cooked for a longer period of time and get the same degree of uh caramelization? Well, again, it's the question is is it caramelization or is it myard?
+
+[25:36] Is there any other alkalizing agent uh that could be used that doesn't give that funny side taste? Thanks and best wishes, Nate Simon. Um I don't know, I haven't run a lot of the tests. You could just try to cook it longer, but longer might mean like twice as long, uh, and see kind of what happens. Uh it's possible also that if you were to um allow more liquid to evaporate off, then the temperature would go kind of even higher, but you'd run into some problems with uh scorching uh at that point, unless you were doing the kind of trivet and jar uh technique.
+
+[26:09] Uh I've done some like ult ultra high temperature ones where I have uh pre-reduced, gotten some you know liquid out and then put them in uh in oil in it, but it's not really safe. I wouldn't really recommend doing it, and I can get like much higher temperatures that way. Um lastly, I want to make sure that you I mean you should just try it and see whether you like the result. Just do it for twice as long and see what happens. But I would also uh say I don't know whether the recipes that you're using uh have you neutralize the baking soda a little bit.
+
+[26:38] Unfortunately, baking soda doesn't neutralize to uh salt and um water the way that like hydrochloric acid and uh and lye would do. Uh but um it does it neutralizes to sodium acetate, which has a little bit of a vinegar uh like you uh like a so if you use acetic acid, then it will I think it will go to sodium acetate. Right? Yes, it'll go to sodium acetate, and then that'll have that's what they use for salt and vinegar potato chips. So if you want a little bit of a vinegar taste to it, you could try to neutralize it with a little bit of vinegar.
+
+[27:14] You could try to use a tiny pinch of food grade, tiny pinch of food grade uh sodium hydroxide, uh, and then but I wouldn't use HCl uh for it, so you're still gonna have uh an acetate uh ion in there when you neutralize it. But I would just be careful, as everyone knows lye in the kitchen can be dangerous if you don't label your core containers and you taste it like a jerk. Um lastly, uh Zach writes in about low temperature uh meats. My wife family my wife's family routinely commits war crime level overcooking of any meat. As a result, I'm increasingly volunteer to host or bring entrees to family events.
+
+[27:54] This has led to a secondary problem. They won't eat ever anything that is even pink inside, poultry, pork, and even beef. I can't bring myself to intentionally overcook, and I think they would actually like to eat things that are cooked much less if they could get past the psychological barrier. So is there a way with low-temp cooking to greatly reduce the amount of redness in a cooked piece of meat without actually cooking it more? I.e., could I enzymatically degrade the hemoglobin?
+
+[28:16] It's not hemoglobin, by the way, it's myoglobin. Or otherwise catalyze this degradation at a lower temperature. And then the second point you have is have you ever noticed that when toasting almonds, uh, that if you taste them well, they are still hot, their texture is odd and off putting and flavor even seems to be off. I think that's more of a texture issue. Uh but it could be a flavored thing because the volatiles coming out of, especially um if you leave the skins on.
+
+[28:37] But once they cool, they get that great crunchiness and uh texture. What's going on there? I think what's going on there is the protein uh it's like a protein gel, and when it's hot, it um with any residual moisture is just a little bit rubbery, and then when it cools down, it gets all nice and solid. Remember, roasting, you're actually flashing off uh almost all the water. So it's I think it's basically just that that protein gel.
+
+[29:00] Back to your meats. The problem with meats is that uh when you vacuum pack or cook something low temperature in a bag or or anything like this, um, your a lot of the uh myoglobin is in its deoxygenated state, deoxymyoglobin. Deoxymyoglobin is much more resistant to uh heat denaturation than uh than um regular um oxymyoglobin is. Uh and so what happens is is that you have a lot of deoxy left, it cooks, then when you uh get it out of the bag, it kind of blooms and gets red. Um in poultry, you have actual actual hemoglobin there coming out of the bones, especially in younger meat.
+
+[29:41] So with poultry, get rid of all the bones, uh trim out those areas, cook it faster. The uh it's been my experience that the fat faster rates of cooking, so in other words, thinner pieces of meat, faster rates of cooking are gonna get uh better coloration, well, more cooked-looking coloration for you. But uh allow it to bloom up in a full oxygen environment. Uh even allow it to go if you were to do things that make it look terrible beforehand, like form met myoglobin, i.e. put it in a micro oxygen environment so that it can oxidizes, pull it out, and then like expose it to large amounts of oxygen.
+
+[30:14] Oxygenated meat will turn brown very quickly. Uh, and so I'm actually experimenting with uh the low temperature book that I'm doing, uh, different ways to get around this problem since it is a problem. And so as I do experiments, I'll let you guys know. I'll give you more feedback on how to make meats look overcooked even when they're not cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[30:48] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[31:14] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Juice coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn every Tuesday from Ruffy 12.
+
+[0:28] Roughly 1245 or, you know, one, depends on how we feel. Uh yeah. How you guys doing? I got uh I got with me today no Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Yeah.
+
+[0:41] She's in Chicago. She got to fly out yesterday in that awesome, awesome uh wind and rainstorm we had in New York. I think out of LaGuardia. I'm amazed that they let her fly out. I mean, uh LaCordi.
+
+[0:53] Well, you know It's like for those of you that don't know, like we have three major airports in New York. One of them is in New Jersey, so go figure. And it used to actually it's a lot easier now to come in in and out of Newark, which is the one in New Jersey, because now you can kind of like Uber back and forth, but it used to be you'd take a New York City cab to Newark. First of all, let me we also have in the studio replacing Nastasia Lopez for today only, the evil cocktail overlord of the universe, Don Lee. Don?
+
+[1:21] I brought the anger. Yeah. I'm here to smash. Nice, nice. I'm gonna hate everything.
+
+[1:25] He's like uh are you more are you more Kylo Wren or more Darth Vader? Ooh, tough question. Definitely more Darth Vader. More Darth. Angsty thing going.
+
+[1:35] No, no dad killing thing. Just straight evil. Yeah. I like that better. Skipped the Anakin too, just straight Darth Vader.
+
+[1:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he was the worst. Anakin was the worst. Like that acting so unbelievable. Aldo, I just got uh an interesting tip.
+
+[1:47] Uh, if you're gonna rewatch the prequels, watch it in a language you don't understand with subtitles. Apparently a lot better. You mean if you can't hear his acting? Yeah. So, you know, you just got subtitles, like watch it in Farsi.
+
+[1:58] But in Dubbed in Farsi with English. Dubbed in Farsi, English subtitles. Well, uh, I I mean, I don't know the guy, Christian, what's his name? Uh the dude? Yeah.
+
+[2:06] Hayden Christensen. Hayden Christensen. I mean, has he acted anything where he's good after that? It's horrific. I mean, Natalie Portman's a good actress, and she's horrific in that.
+
+[2:16] So I don't know, man. Has anyone ever watched The Phantom Menace all the way through? I mean, uh painfully the first time it came out, not since then. Exactly. I mean, I've tried on several occasions to make it all the way through.
+
+[2:28] Have you ever watched the two-hour long review of the Phantom Menace on YouTube? This guy, he he reviews all three of the prequels, and he also like has the there's this subplot of him being like uh a Buffalo Bill-esque serial killer because truly only someone like that could review those movies, but it's really, really good. Yeah, does it start like the Phantom Menace with a bunch of weird trade rules? It's like it's almost like what's going on in politics right now. It just starts with a bunch of trade regulations that nobody understands, and then like muddles on, and then all of a sudden Darth Maul comes out and gets killed in like ten seconds, right?
+
+[3:01] I mean, it's like at the end of the movie. Yeah, I mean, the only good thing to come out of that movie is uh the Duel of the Fate song. That's a great song, John Williams. Oh, wait, John, well, I don't know that. What's what's that?
+
+[3:11] That's the song when they're actually fighting at the very end. But is it better than like the actual like Darth Vader theme? You of course you can't be better than that, but it is in the pantheon of you know, Star Wars songs, one of the great songs. What about the plaintiff Rebel Alliance song? That's awesome too.
+
+[3:30] That's good, right? Yeah, Lightmotifs, all about that. Yeah. Yeah. You know what?
+
+[3:34] Is there anyone better than him? At what he does? Anyone? I don't know. Whoever just did uh Rogue One did a pretty good job.
+
+[3:41] Wasn't him? It wasn't him, yeah. He's still alive, though. He's still alive. Kind of chunk.
+
+[3:45] Why didn't they get him? Because it's it's a Star Wars story, not the official Star Wars. But when Darth Vader was in it, they used the original. But then it changed very quickly if you listen carefully. They just well, remember when the Darth I don't know why we're talking about this.
+
+[3:56] Anyway, back to the quickly on our airport. So now you can take the Uber back from there, so it's not so bad. But we have two other main airports in here. We have John F. Kennedy International Airport, which is where a lot of the international flights come in.
+
+[4:09] Also terrible airport. Worst. Well, here's the worst. Like when you fly internationally, they make you walk basically the length of an entire country to get from the airplane to the uh where they check you into the country at customs. Then they make you stand in three separate lines.
+
+[4:25] In the name of efficiency, they make you stand in three separate lines. You have to go in the line to talk to the computer to tell it what you brought in or didn't, then wait in the line to hand that piece of paper to an agent who stamps your passport so that you can wait in line to go to a customs person who actually verifies that they're gonna search you or not. Wait, how is it that you don't have global entry yet? Uh okay, people. So you can pay a hundred dollars and go get this thing called global entry.
+
+[4:51] The problem is you actually have to show up somewhere to do that. You can't just walk in and be like, here's my hundred dollars. Yeah, but you don't even have to go to an airport in New York City. There's a TSA office in lower Manhattan. And first of all, are you a citizen of the United States, Donnelly?
+
+[5:05] Of course I am. Am I a citizen? Am I a citizen of the United States? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:08] Should I have to pay my government to not be inconvenienced? Should it be a rich person's freaking right only to not have to go through hell? Someone who scrapes their nickels together so they can finally take that international freaking trip. They should have to pay a hundred dollars so that their government doesn't ram a freaking ramrod of nasty time waste suck crap up your you know what when you come back in to the country. Listen, clearly that shouldn't be the case, but you know, this is the world we've got.
+
+[5:36] So what are you gonna do? And besides, most credit cards will pay for it for you, as will any uh frequent flyer service. What do you mean, frequent flyer service? If you got frequent flyer status, don't pay for it. Again, you have to be a frequent flyer.
+
+[5:48] You have to be a special person. Listen, you're a frequent flyer, you fly all the time. But I don't sign up for anything because I can't do paperwork. All right, we're we're talking about this off the air. All right.
+
+[5:57] Now, uh, so anyway, so here's the other thing about uh John F. Kennedy International Airport. It costs sixty to eighty dollars to get there. I mean, that's just it, unless you take public transportation. And there's no convenient public transportation at John F.
+
+[6:08] Kennedy Airport because you have to take at a minimum, at a minimum, a subway to another train and then walking in between. That's minimum. You can do the express bus to Midtown. To another oh, well, yeah, but you didn't have to get to Midtown. I don't live in Midtown.
+
+[6:22] Listen, that's your problem. And by the way, you're going with bags. Your bags. And do they do things like not have like lots of stairs? They have some convenient way to get around those subways and things?
+
+[6:32] No. No, they do not. It is not built for people to use, right? I believe they're all ADA accessible. They've got elevators, they've got to be.
+
+[7:11] How are we a major city? Listen, this is this is what we got. We got a you know over a hundred-year-old uh subway system that floods, we're gonna you know close down tunnels. There's lots of problems here. But how are we like how is this okay?
+
+[7:23] Like, how are we like who we are? Listen, you know, if we had a major war that leveled the city and we rebuilt it from the ground up, like Rotterdam, it'd be nicer, you know, or like Seoul or Tokyo. Yeah, all right, all right. Listen, I'm gonna need this later, and I didn't write it down, so please remember this. Uh please remember this uh name of this article, people.
+
+[7:40] Later on, we're gonna answer or talk about a question about soybean uh and pulse proteins, Ubiskin, Ubuk, bean curd skin. And uh we're gonna talk about this article. So if you are interested in uh protein of other legumes and pulses, just remember this article. It's a review, so you can just get a handle on what the proteins are by uh Joyce uh Boy and it's pulse proteins, colon, processing characterization, functional properties, and applications in food and feed. A review in Food Research International.
+
+[8:11] Uh and you can find that you can find abstracts to it on the internets, or if you can steal access to uh a uh university, you can uh get it that way. I forget what year, let me see what year it was from. Uh 2010. So, you know, less than a decade old, relatively recent. Um call in your questions, leguminous or not, to 7184978 oh my god, I forgot the number.
+
+[8:34] 784972128, that's 7184972128. So I just got back from uh Oregon from Portland, and uh I saw them, the dogs actually hunting truffles, so now I know how to do the truffle hunting. And I have to say that the fact that I've not been able to get my dog, one of my major, my large lab to successfully hunt troubles, it's not his fault. I think I was looking in the wrong places here in Connecticut. My my truffle contact, uh Charles LaFever in uh and Charles Ruff, the other my other truffle contact in um in Portland, uh they they tell me, they insist that I have truffles here in Connecticut, that we all have truffles everywhere, truffles everywhere, it's just you gotta know how to look for them.
+
+[9:13] So non-culinary truffles, potentially. Unclear. Unclear. Unclear. So I know a lot, we've talked a lot about truffles already, but I have a lot more experience with uh the Oregon truffle now.
+
+[9:23] So if anyone cares to talk more about uh, you know, non-European truffles like non-melanosporum, i.e. paragord and non-magnatum, i.e. white alba truffles, you know, let me know. So what were you doing wrong with your dog? Is it like going too too close to the base of the tree, like looking in the wrong place?
+
+[9:40] Truffles don't like like a lot of like uh debris and wood and garbage on the ground. So like truffles like forests that are relatively recently planted, they're like like uh relatively um they live in conjunction with disturbance, right? Because they're on these truffles anyway, relatively young uh forests, and they don't like I think a lot of competitive like uh shrubs and wood and all this kind of other garbage on the ground. Um, you know, look the land I have, I was looking in very rocky places. They also don't like waterlogged ground, so you have to look in places that aren't completely waterlogged.
+
+[10:15] Um I got I just got an eye of where they were looking for this stuff in in Oregon, so I feel like I have a better hand. I'm just envisioning you like you know, bribing your sons to go like rake the forest to like clear the debris now. Well, what you need well uh I don't know, in other words, I don't know that that'll help, or it's just whether it's it needs to be kind of just like that naturally. Like the where we were was like the classic uh like Doug fur, like needles on the ground, soft duff, you know, the ferns here and there, but not a lot of like, you know, crazy downed stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:46] But so the the acidic soil is gre is okay with them then. Uh is that what Doug fur grows in? I don't know. Like I think everything depends. I gotta I gotta I gotta I gotta look it up.
+
+[10:55] But uh so the dog that I was with, Dante, and they use some sort of precursor to the poodle, the like uh I forget what it's called. It's called like the the lake romanola or something. It looks like a poodle, but it's apparently older. And I don't know anything about it. But uh so uh Dante finds uh a truffle, does the mark, puts his paw down, does the initial scrape, and I was like, don't get stop.
+
+[11:15] And I got down on my hands and knees and put my nose to the dirt. Got the minty smell? Dude, it's not mint. This one has like everyone's different, right? It's like Rosemary's baby, every truffle is different.
+
+[11:25] But the uh for those of you that have seen Rosemary's Baby, but uh these ones have like kind of a sulfur almost like horseradishy alum hit to them, along with some other aromas. It's like you once you smell it. See the thing with this is once you smell it like fresh out of the you know ground, it's like okay, I got a lock on what the Oregon white truffle smells like. But what I'm here to tell you is is that a human being with their nose to the ground can smell it. And I'm sure if you were to like crawl on all fours constantly, or like you know, wheel yourself around uh face down on a car dolly all the time, that you you could find these things too.
+
+[11:57] Do you know what I'm saying? Sounds like a challenge. Let me tell you something else. Smelling the ground in a dug for uh uh Doug uh fur patch is nice anyway. Like there's no bad smells there, you know what I mean?
+
+[12:09] It's not like putting your you know nose to the pavement in the lower east side, it's not just like a big giant pile of filth. We should turn it into like some kind of like yoga meditation thing where you have to go into the forest and do this. Oh my god, we totally should. It's like you find X number of truffles and you've reached this certain level of daily enlightenment. Yeah.
+
+[12:27] We can be a whole religion around this. Sign business, selling truffles, you know, selling the latent on the other side. And let me tell you, you become much more dog like when you're on the ground. So like uh, you know, you're sitting there and you have you ever watch a dog outside? Yeah.
+
+[12:40] Yeah, they they do the they do the pfft and then they go pfft and they blow out. You do the same thing when you're doing it. You're like, okay, I feel like not I feel like I'm saturated with whatever's right here. You do the blowout, and then you start again. You're like, without even thinking about it, you're like, oh my god, I'm acting just like a dog.
+
+[12:56] Right. But the the the nostrils themselves on the dogs are very different. So they've got that little like kind of curly cue, it looks like a comma almost, where the when they do blow out, it creates this interesting like vortex so that they're really directional smelling versus us. We're like kind of everywhere. All right, Harold McGee, one of his favorite studies to bring up is this study, and I forget what it was.
+
+[13:13] It was at uh some UC school, I don't know, like 15, 20 years ago, something like this. Where and this so I've read studies that basically say yes, dogs are better than humans, but it's not like I don't think it's orders of orders of magnitudes better than humans. And I think there's some contentious kind of argument over this. But I mean obviously they use dogs to smell things that we can't, right? So I mean, there you go.
+
+[13:33] I don't know whether dogs can smell more compounds, strictly speaking, more numbers of compounds we can, or their sensitivity to those compounds. But there was a study where this person uh in California, I forget who it was, drugs some chocolate uh aroma, or it could have been chocolate, but I doubt it's just chocolate, because chocolate aroma through the ground and then put flashlights on students' heads and then overhead took a picture of them at night trying to sniff their way, and they found it. And you can see them like you could see them do the kind of like like uh like the hunt porpoise back and forth until they hit the right trail and then staying on, deviating off, coming back. So humans can do it. Yeah, we can do it.
+
+[14:14] It's just my understanding was from a pure anatomy standpoint. The dogs, the snouts are longer, so the way that they experience smell is more uh it's more uh was it uh orthodasal than retronasal? So you know, for us it's a lot of it is like you know, associated with when we eat, and so it's that retronasal smell. But with a dog, it's primarily that orthodonasal from the outside directly through the nostrils, and the shape of the nostrils make it more directional than us. So yeah, Lieberman, the uh human evolutionist, his theory, and I don't know whether it still has any credit or not, is that we are the retronasal like royalty of the animal world, whereas everyone else is yeah, completely orthodonasal.
+
+[14:50] So, like dogs, you know, d like dogs when you make dog food, you're not worried about how it smells when they're chewing it. It's all about you know getting it in the face, getting it in the face, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, anyway. How the hell did we get into this?
+
+[15:02] Airports? Uh truffles. Truffles. Uh, Star Wars, truffles. Yeah, uh weird.
+
+[15:09] Um, Quinn wrote in. Uh this was uh last week. Uh back in November, I asked you a question on how to make uh double extracted chicken stock. I didn't talk about this, did I, Dave? The nuts from Star Chefs, or did I I mean from Chef Steps?
+
+[15:23] Don't think so, no. I had a different nut question I talked about, right? Yeah, yeah. All right. Um so I recently tried making uh stock using the the double uh pressure cooker technique you described, and it worked out nicely.
+
+[15:35] Great. Uh the flavor was more concentrated than any stock I'd previously made. There was also a huge difference in the body of the stock. Uh as I chilled it in ice bath, it solidified into a gel, whereas previous stocks I made there would be some gelatin, but it would still be mostly liquid. Thanks for the help.
+
+[15:49] Uh I have a question about a chef steps recipe for deep fried glassy nuts. What do you think about that title, Don? Deep fried glassy nuts. Who doesn't like some glassy nuts? Glassy nuts.
+
+[15:59] What about classy nuts? Well, what about classy glassy nuts? We have so many people ask, like like the fe I have a feeling like everybody knows is like they can in their heads just say these nuts at this point on this show with the number of times that we've had like these nuts references. I always think McGee's nuts now. Oh, because we did it on that show, McGee's nuts?
+
+[16:19] Yep. Yeah. That's replaced these nuts in my mind. So when you actually hear Snoop Dogg saying it to his like girlfriend on the phone, you hear him saying McGee's nuts? Yeah, my mind just pastes McGee's in over what he's saying.
+
+[16:33] Wow. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Yeah, it's a testament to the power of the show in radio. Yeah. Can we get Martha Stewart to ask Snoop to say McGee's nuts?
+
+[16:41] That would be amazing. In the Snoop Dog in the Snoop Dogg way. Yeah. Yeah. And that's going through my head.
+
+[16:47] Here's another one that goes through my head all the time. Whenever I think of uh Total Eclipse of a Heart, the Heart, the song, in my mind the word heart is replaced by Jean-Paul Sartre. And vice versa. Whenever anyone mentions Jean-Paul Sartre, I sing Total Eclipse of the Jean-Paul Sart in my head. Sounds like an existential nightmare.
+
+[17:07] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Boom.
+
+[17:10] Anyway, so the recipe is Chef Steph's uh tips and tricks, deep fried glassy nuts. Um briefly, what they do is they take the nuts, uh, whatever nut. I think they do pecan in their recipe. Uh but I think it works uh theoretically on any nut. And they uh blanch it for a while in uh water.
+
+[17:32] So there's there's for a couple minutes. There's two things, by the way, that that blanching step is doing. It's adding some moisture to the nut, which is gonna help in the next procedure, but it's also leaching out the tannins. So if I were you, uh uh, you know, but it's not going to penetrate too far, so you're not going to leach out too much of the nut's flavor, but basically all of the all of the stuff that you don't like when you're roasting, like those kind of burnt bitter notes, a lot of that stuff is coming from uh the skin, which is also kind of high in uh tannins, especially on something like a walnut or precana. Anywho.
+
+[18:04] So you blanch it for more or less time, depending, I guess, on how much crap you want to leach out. And then you instantly throw it into um uh they do it in salted water too, so I guess they're salting it at the same time, which is always a good idea. And they throw it into uh powdered sugar, but confectioner sugar, I guess, which also has some cornstarch in it. I think they use confectioner sugar. It's interesting.
+
+[18:24] I doubt that the chef steps guys bother making their own powdered sugar, and any non uh any commercial uh confectioner sugar you have has cornstarch in it because that's how they keep it from caking together. So excuse me, after you pull it out, you drain it, then you shake it like uh shaken bake in a in a cambro of um of this powdered sugar, this confectioner sugar, and then uh you fry it, right? And so the purpose of frying there is I guess to keep them separate, w frying at a rather low temperature. You're keeping them separate from each other, so not like on a baking rack, and you're also preventing stuff from dripping off because any watery stuff is going to adhere to the nut inside the oil because it has no reason to go off into the oil. And at the same time, you're evaporating the moisture off of the surface of the uh uh out of the nut entirely to dehydrate it again.
+
+[19:15] And at the same time, uh you're taking this slurry of sugar that you've made on the outside with the water and the nut and anything that's coming out, and you're melting that into a glassy coating. When it's done, you pull it out, you dry it off. So that oh man, my phone decided that I was done done reading, so it stopped. So anyway, so the point being that uh see what happened to him then. Uh I followed their procedure of blancing the pecans in salted water for about a minute, then strained and immediately dumped them into a camber of powdered sugar, shaking to coat, uh coat well before frying in 325 degree hot oil.
+
+[19:48] Several of the pecans had sugar that crystallized, resulting in a clumpy coating. Very few ended up looking glassy. Any ideas as to what went wrong, thanks, Quinn from LA. Uh so I looked at the Chef Steps um their website, and uh there were like huge numbers of people who were like, work like a charm, work like a charm, and then occasionally people would have this problem. Typically, um what's going on in in this problem is there's there's I haven't tried the recipe, so I can't say, but typically what happens to me when you're cooking sugar is either um either you've never fully melted the stuff to begin with, and so a crystal stays there and then it just crystallizes as it cools down.
+
+[20:31] Or two, um you have something that does fully melt out, but a crystal then gets reintroduced back into it and it just crystals and glasses over. So, you know, one would be you know something that's never works right. So, like you know how you know how if you take um if you take sugar and you don't uh get all the crystals off of the side as it starts to boil, then uh if you and if you stir it while it's doing, you can hit a crystal into it, and you could crystall out your whole batch once you make it to a certain temperature, because you're not hot enough to melt everything out. You're not hot enough to go 100% caramel, but you're not uh, you know, you you're cold enough that you can stay in that super saturated state. You're basically putting the I'm not being clear, you're basically putting the sugar into a super saturated state and then introducing a nucleation site.
+
+[21:14] That's what's happening. So my guess is um maybe you're draining it too much and you need a little more water on it. Um that's my guess. I don't know. What do you think?
+
+[21:29] You have any are you a sugar cooking person, Don? Not so much of a sugar cooking person, but it's sounds interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the kind of uh the powdered sugar that he's using as well. I mean, is the cornstarch really gonna affect it that much? Is that gonna make things better or worse?
+
+[21:44] I mean, if I had to guess, I would say it would make it more crystalline. Right. Because it's it's non-sugar that's in the in the thing. My guess is that it's not gonna matter too much. Maybe someone on the chat room knows about this, Dave, and can uh can like weigh in on this.
+
+[22:00] Um another thing is uh uh I mean the your oil temperature, if your oil temperature was right, the oil temperature sure surely can affect it, but I don't know, I don't know, I don't know how. The recipe does specifically say it's powdered sugar. So I mean these guys are pretty specific. Do they maybe the he should be able to do it? No one sells powdered sugar though.
+
+[22:19] You super fine. Super fine, not powdered. Yeah, close enough. Super fine, not powdered, Don. Super fine is not powdered sugar, Don.
+
+[22:25] But if that is in fact the case, uh the best way to do it is to put superfine in uh in like a vita prep and just blitz the hell out of it until it's a powder, but it's mean you can try it. But I have to look really closely on the what's it called, on their video, and you can tell by looking at the way it shakes whether or not it's yeah. But you know, don't be don't be substituting Superfine for powder, man. Not the same. Listen, if you if you have to choose one or the other, I'd rather take the new cornstarch.
+
+[22:54] In the real life, yeah, I you know, I don't know. I guess it's probably helpful for some things. What about for glazes? I'm sure it's helpful in glazes. I use nothing but confectioner sugar and glazes.
+
+[23:02] Yeah, but in that's like, you know, if if you want that specific thing. If you uh I always want that. You don't like glazes on cakes? I just I've had too many cocktails where someone reads the recipe, sees powdered sugar, and then uses uh confectioner sugar, and then now I've got to do that. You should never use that in a cocktail.
+
+[23:15] That's what I'm saying. What do they use it for? Wrong. They just shouldn't use it. But what do they use it for?
+
+[23:20] It's just they don't understand what we're doing. What recipe calls for powdered sugar? Like old recipes that you know they're not looking at modern recipes. So they'll they'll read a Jerry Thomas style recipe, see powdered sugar, and then there's no place for cornstarch in a normal cocktail. Which is why for me, if you have to choose, go superfine.
+
+[23:38] That's because cornstarch is just gonna make it cloudy. Exactly. And if, you know, I forget what it is. I think it's not low. I think it's something.
+
+[23:47] It's not as high as 10%, I don't think, but it's it's not an insignificant amount of cornstarch that's in it. So I would imagine also that it's gonna leave a this I'm making a definitely a texture. Once it's dissolved. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[24:00] And this little uh you know, slurry on the bottom uh as you drink the drink. It's a nightmare. Why would anyone do that? Enemies of quality. Enemies of quality.
+
+[24:08] Hey, you can still go buy that shirt. Oh, by the way, next week uh when Nastasia's back, hopefully we have more information on uh the spinz all, how it's going. We're still have the campaign going, uh going well. Um might have some uh news next week about our plans. We're talking with our uh factories in China in advance of the lunar new year, which is this weekend.
+
+[24:32] So basically we're getting our last licks in before the lunar new new year and hopefully have more on dates, timings, updates on um how much money we've uh had pledged to date and how much money we're actually gonna need going forward and then we'll uh we'll talk more about it. Yeah, for people that don't know on the manufacturing in China side of things, Lunar New Year is the largest uh voluntary migration of people that happens every year, and uh everything shuts down in China for almost an entire month. Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is even though the celebrations are probably what, like a week or something like this, uh I was talking to the the guys, and so like what you have is like in a lot of factories in in China, people are they go to the factories from they live long way away, long way away. And they go and they live in the factory dormitory style. We're talking like, you know, young people like 18, 19, 20 year old people young, you know, working in these factories.
+
+[25:25] Not like young like like you know, like child labor young, but like, you know, first job young. And those group of people sometimes when they go home for uh, you know, for for the lunar new year, it's a long way to get there, and maybe they didn't like their job so much, so they just don't come back. And so like it takes a long, long time for the factory to get back up to speed because they don't know what percentage of their workers they're gonna get back. Um and you know, maybe that'll change uh uh later in time uh in China as as fewer and fewer workers uh become migratory or come from other you know provinces. Um I don't know.
+
+[26:04] It's it's as interesting and strange phenomenon, you know what I mean? Very interesting. Yeah. Are you guys manufacture in China uh at Cocktail Kingdom, right? We do some there, yeah.
+
+[26:13] Yeah, not everything, but some, right? Yep. You see uh you hearing any rumblings yet about the whole uh Trump thing? Uh not not anything that specifically affects us. Yeah.
+
+[26:22] I'm interested because I'm working there, I'm interested to see what happens. I kind of you know, I wish I could make I wish I could make the spinzall in the US, but we just don't have the quantity. You know what I mean? Like this is what I think people don't understand. Like a small manufacturer like me, or like you know, you guys at Cocktail Kingdom, be virtually impossible for a lot of the stuff we do to get the numbers reasonable.
+
+[26:44] Like the US, we're really good at making a couple and we're really, really good at making a lot. But anything that is not in automation range is like doesn't exist. Yeah, you can't. Like you have to make enough of something to have it be automated for it to be viable here in the US. But then how many jobs are you really providing if you're going to an automated pro you know?
+
+[27:04] I don't know. It's an interesting problem. I wish I could. Yeah, sure. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[27:11] Hi, Dave. Uh my name's Nick. I'm calling from the UK. Hey, how you doing? I have uh uh a c I'm good.
+
+[27:18] Thank you. You guys? Yeah, good. Uh I have a uh a cocktail related question. I'm trying to make a uh tequila and rhubarb sour, uh where I'm using the uh the rhubarb juice um both as uh uh taking the rhubarb juice and using that uh making a syrup from that and also using it to for the acid.
+
+[27:42] Um but it's got I'm got a problem with the astringency. It's kind of really um if you make one drink and it's great and it's balanced between the kind of acid and and and the sugar, but if if you then go to have a second drink, second one of it, you get that real kind of tannic drying quality uh astringency in the mouth. And I just wonder if you had any ideas on how to deal with that. Sure. So uh let me go through your procedure.
+
+[28:09] First of all, this is a heated rhubarb. Yeah, so the uh the rhubarb is uh cooked in a bag in a water bath sixty degrees for an hour, uh blended with pectin X and then uh spun in the centrifuge to take that off. Um then uh so then split it into two parts and make um from one half of that make uh uh fifty bricks syrup and then essentially then make it like a like a uh uh making a daiquiri, so well, a one and a half ounce of of tequila and three quarters of juice and three quarters of syrup. One and a half I gotta go two. Go two.
+
+[28:47] Anyway, but like uh but l let me ask you this. Um well maybe not it depends. Uh yeah, you should go, yeah. Anyway, what let me uh let me let me work mentally backwards here. So I've never cooked rhubarb at 60.
+
+[29:00] Is that enough to have it taste cooked or does it still taste raw? It tastes cooked. Okay. Yeah, because raw rhubarb, which I've also used, is even more challenging to use in a cocktail than cooked rhubarb. Um I would recommend um I mean any time I have uh a qu uh a problem of astringency, I move to some sort of um stripping regimen.
+
+[29:24] But I would do it like on the juice itself. So uh casein like milk is a relatively gentle stripping thing. So you could do like a milk washing to it uh before you add the sugar. Obviously, the sugar will stabilize it, so you know it'll kind of ruin it. Unless you want to actually make a milk syrup out of it, but then the problem is then you you have to add a lot of milk.
+
+[29:45] But um uh yeah, so um milk would uh would do it. Um a lot of other astringency removers are relatively brutal, like egg white is a relatively brutal stripping agent. It like it'll just really tear the hell out of uh the flavor, the strip the hell out of it. Um as a first shot, I would just make the drink with an egg white and see whether the egg white, if you have two of the uh just with your current syrup that you have right now, if it if it's something that can be bound with a protein, just making it with an egg white twice, it's gonna change the balance a lot of your cocktail, uh, but it'll let you know whether or not um a stripping agent would help, right? Um not yeah.
+
+[30:32] Sorry to interrupt, but I I did uh I've tried a milkwash on it and and I like the results. And that's reminding me what the next part of the question is. Uh is there a vegan alternative to uh using uh uh a milk wash. Okay. Well let me think about it.
+
+[30:49] Uh have you ever tried a a milk wash for soy milk. Soy milk. I haven't. I don't know uh my impression, Don, you tried it? I haven't tried it, but I can't imagine that that would work.
+
+[31:02] Here's the thing. Uh I don't know, maybe someone on the um on the what's it calls will know, on the on the message things will know. But um usually with soy protein, so it is a protein, right? I've never fined with it. Uh my guess is that soy is to coagulate soy you add positive ions, right?
+
+[31:28] You add calcium typically, um or magnesium, like double positive, which leads me to guess that the soy currently has a net negative, right? I have no idea. I have no idea. I shouldn't even speculate. Mike, I would try it, like and and like I like, you know, it's a it's definitely an interesting idea.
+
+[31:49] I've done um well, I guess Kesel Sol, which you add is negative, right? Because then you add chitasan, which is positive. So you could tr I've done um the I've done um I forget what it was. I did a a gel an strip where I added uh a fining agent to do the um to do the attachment, and then I added gel ant to precipitate it out. But that's very gentle.
+
+[32:16] Um gelatin is a good stripper, but it's not obviously not vegan. Um I guess I'm more curious as to why it's the second drink and not from the very beginning, not from that first drink. So if you if you would try to make, you know, like uh not rhubarb margarita, like a regular margarita, and then you have a rhubarb margarita as your second drink, is that still feeling uh too uh too stringent? Oh, I don't know. Astringency can build up over time.
+
+[32:47] I mean astringency as of five or six years ago, which is the last time I actually looked it up, well there was still some debate over the mechanism of astringency, but there are at least some people who believe it's a loss of lubricity on the tongue. Right. Uh and so you could definitely have an additive effect over time uh with with astringency. Um I guess what I would do is I would try, you know, another sour drink first and then have this as a second drink. As is is it a specifically any second drink?
+
+[33:17] Or if you had a double sized drink, by the time you get to the end of that first drink, is it just because the accumulation over time? You know? David, is anyone on the anyone in the chat room around, has anyone tried uh stripping with soy? Doesn't look like it now. Yeah.
+
+[33:35] No, no thoughts on this. Um somebody wants to know what about aquafaba. You know how I got them? Well, someone someone wants to say everyone wants aqua aquafaba and everything. No, like uh like a chick that that's more of a hydrocaloid interaction.
+
+[33:47] Uh like it's more of a thickening kind of uh protein thing. I don't know the charge of uh chickpea juice, but you know, in general, what um you're looking for like an uh like an aggregator, and so it's you like something that like it's going to bind to uh polyphenols. And so typically you're looking at proteins like to complex with polyphenols, other polyphenols like to complex uh complex with other polyphenols in the in the right uh environment, and um certain charged uh certain charged um things will bond with polyphenols in the right environment. It's an interesting idea. I should look into soy like soy protein isolates.
+
+[34:26] I mean just use soy protein isolates. I should try it. I I it would be easy enough to look up. Um here's the other thing though. If you look up wine fining, right, which is how you get into this, in wine finding, you will see uh, and there there's lots of scholarly work on it, right?
+
+[34:41] You'll see blood, you'll see egg white, you'll see gelatin, you'll see Kesel Sol, chitosan, you know, the suspended silica, chitosan, um you'll see all of that stuff. I haven't, you'll see, you know, PvPP, you'll see all these things. Um you won't see uh you won't see so much um uh I've never seen soy. But uh maybe this haven't they haven't tried it, but you know, that's an indicator. What you can do, there are carrageenans that are made for finding out beers, and they require a certain amount of heating, probably a little bit above s over what you're doing now 60 C, but there are kapacarrageenins that are uh made to add in small amounts to like uh bind protein haze in um in beers, other hazes in beers, maybe they would help.
+
+[35:33] I don't know. I don't know. Interesting thing to try. Sub gel in there. Is there something uh you're serving in like a a bar or restaurant, or is this something you're just doing for yourself at home?
+
+[35:42] Uh it's it will be for a bar restaurant. Yeah. By the way, uh I am looking into uh wired about that's why I wanted to see if I can make it vegan, because at home I'm you know, that's fine. I'll already have the or is you already using a bit of aquafabo in it and uh to give give some head and and uh um uh that uh I'm not sure if that's just I don't think that's doing any astringency stripping. Yeah.
+
+[36:12] Um ask you a question on the aquafaba. Here's my issue on a lot of uh texturizing agents in drinks. So I did some experimentation years ago with uh doping my lime juice with xanthan gum. Uh and the reason being that I wanted to, you know, if if if lime juice has two functions in a shaking cocktail, right? It's a it it it's adding solids, proteins for texturizing, and it's adding acidity, which is why you never shake with clarified lime juice, right?
+
+[36:42] Right. Okay. So I thought, well, if a little bit of bodying is good, more might be better. So I added Xanthan gum so it could hold the body better. And uh this is also in like anyway, and my thing was is that I couldn't find anyone who liked it that much better.
+
+[36:59] I wasn't adding enough to make first of all, remember Xanthan not a whipping agent. So you're not gonna it doesn't make a foam, it just holds the foam you've got, right? Be very clear on what Xanthan does. But um I wasn't able to find anyone that liked it better fresh, but I was able to find people who at the end of the cocktail, once the cocktail had warmed up a little bit, could taste a different body in it at the end of the cocktail. Now, my question on aquafaba in a cocktail is do you have the same problem at the end of a cocktail?
+
+[37:36] I don't know because I've been drinking them quite quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it does drink. I mean, I I I because I really don't I can really taste egg white uh in a drink, which is why I don't like it.
+
+[37:50] All right, you know what you should do on you on egg white, crack and just do this test for me since you're not a vegan. Yeah, crack your egg white uh in the morning, leave it in your fridge, and then use it in the evening. And tell me if you can still smell it or taste it. Uh a lot of that stuff is kind of transient and it's hard to do in a bar because you know you don't want to crack out that many in advance, but it's one of the few cases where I think people who do do pre-crack on their egg white and put it in squeeze, it's problematic in some ways because it doesn't dose right. But the you know the technique where you crack your egg whites into a squeeze bottle and then you put it and then you jigger your egg white.
+
+[38:27] Uh if you crack it like several hours in advance prior to service, all of that smell flashes away. And so it's actually superior. Okay. And another thing that I don't think I mentioned in uh the book uh in liquid intelligence, I can't remember. I wrote it while you know quite a while ago.
+
+[38:46] But any time we're doing testing for drinks, uh, like we have a very firm rule that uh you make one and you drink it right away because that's the way God wants you to do it, but then you make another one and you take a sip and then you let it sit for 15 minutes and then you take a sip and let it sit around because some drinks, some drinks which work like off-flavors, for instance, egg white drinks on freshly cracked eggs, off flavors will develop after a couple of minutes, or like in the case of the Xanthan stuff, like bad textures will come out as it warms up. So it's like super good practice, I think, because you can't like guarantee that all your customers are good people, you know what I mean? And that they're gonna drink in a timely fashion. I would also say that if if you're doing this at a bar or restaurant, you can also make this as like an interesting like point of service as well. So you serve them this drink, and after they're done, then you follow it up with like you know, like a tiny like bite that like kind of clears that away so that if they have the next drink, you don't have that astringency.
+
+[39:43] Yeah, rhubarb's interesting, it is challenging. Hmm. Yeah. That's brilliant. Also that guy.
+
+[39:53] Is is the is the astringency there's oxalic acid in rhubarb, right? Yeah, so that's just trying to I'm trying to figure out it I don't know how yeah. It's uh and I looked at weather level ways of of kind of preferential stripping out the oxalic acid or uh kind of but I have yeah. I you know, I'll look into it a little more because there's other people worried about oxalic acid, obviously for other reasons, and it can be precipitated out, and I believe aside from being itself, it can add to that uh kind of astringency. So I'll look into it.
+
+[40:31] Are you uh peeling your rhubarb as well? No. So uh just um chopping it. Does that make a difference, Don? Uh well, the uh tin ho uh when I was uh working with him at uh at Sambar was uh all about the super soigner method of uh of peeling your rhubarb and then boiling the peel separate to extract a color and then using that water to then color the the flesh.
+
+[40:55] I don't know if they're you know if there's like a a maybe like a tannin thing coming out of the the skin of it. Could be worth a shot. I don't know. Oh speaking of that, so you we might be interested in this. Like uh the uh so I've been I've been uh experimenting with uh cellulose cellulase, the enzymes that break down cellulose, because my goal is to make the stringless celery.
+
+[41:19] No luck, man. No luck. So what I did was uh I cut the celery into like you know, sticks and then va and then put the enzyme into water, vacuum infuse the water into the celery, which by the way makes it look awesome. Like vacuum what just straight water infused celery looks amazing. It looks so awesome, the color.
+
+[41:39] Uh and then I let it sit for like a day and a half, and I think it made it somewhat softer, but my wife was like, not so special, not so special. I was like, oh man. But it did make the strings easier to peel off. So then if you if you take your your petty, your pairing knife, and you nick the string and pull it, you get a much better pull on that. So it's easier to make like actual cut peel celery, but I've had no luck making the miracle celery, which leads me to believe that those strings are probably also lignin, like lignified.
+
+[42:10] And so I need some sort of enzyme that or something that can break lignin down, which is I think another level of difficulty above cellulose. But I'm still working on the miracle cell, because how nice would it be to have celery that just it was still crunchy, the pectin wasn't destroyed, but you know, it was no no strings. Wouldn't that be awesome? Well, you know. It's a a species rel uh, you know, variety, because we sometimes get celery that isn't stringy, and then sometimes it's horrendously stringy.
+
+[42:41] Wait, would you you sometimes get celery with no strings at all? Uh yeah, I think so, but now you're now you're quizzing me, I'm not entirely sure. I think you had a dream celery, my friend. I think you like you fell asleep and you're like dreaming of this miracle celery, and then you woke up. I mean, I don't know.
+
+[43:05] Like uh I mean, look, if someone developed a variety of stringless celery, I just want everyone to know if someone developed a variety of stringless celery, I would pay five times the price for it. Right? So right now I pay like a dollar for a bunch of celery. I would easily pay five dollars for a bunch of stringless celery. And it would be uh, what would you call it?
+
+[43:25] You call it eating celery, right? Because most people, like unless you're serving kids like cream cheese, peanut butter, and raisins or something like this, like most people are not eating the celery. They're like, well, they're eating it chopped up into thin pieces in like a chicken salad or they're cooking stocks or something, but not a lot. I don't walk down the street and see people like shoving celery into their face at a ferocious rate unless they're on some sort of horrendous diet. And you and you think that the the stringiness of celery is the only impediment to people walking down the street eating more celery.
+
+[43:55] I think it's unpleasant to have that wad of strings in your mouth when you're kind of chewing. I don't know. I just think it's uh yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think it's the only impediment, but I think if you had one that was like like like eight levels higher than an ordinary piece of celery and and it was stringless, that you could build a connoisseur ship. Celery is a great flavor.
+
+[44:14] Let's not like let's not forget that celery, the you know often underappreciated celery is freaking delicious. And so like I feel that if you if you had the stringless celery, uh we could we could have like a celery revolution. We could we could we could increase people's love of celery like many fold, I think. What if you went the opposite direction? You made it like even stringier and then like you know, partner with the uh dental associations and it's like a alternative to flossing.
+
+[44:41] That's just crazy talk. That's just crazy talk. Crazy talk, Don. Well, uh, if I if I if I manage to find any stringless celery, I'll bring some to you in uh in Tails on Tour and Adam. Nice.
+
+[44:53] All right, cool. Yeah, we'll see you there. Bring your string of celery and we'll uh we'll we'll taste it. All right, yeah, when when is I think I'm actually I'm going to Tales Edinburgh with Don Lee. So what what's that?
+
+[45:03] You want to tell them about that? Uh Tales on Tour. Every uh year we take tales uh on the road to another city. We'll be doing two years in Edinburgh, so we'll be there this April. I believe it's April uh third and fourth.
+
+[45:14] It's the first Monday, Tuesday of April, and then we'll be back again next year as well. So uh check out Tails of the Cocktail.com, Tales on Tour Edinburgh for uh tickets and information. All right. Joe uh Joe Ankowitz wrote in uh regarding cast iron. Hey Dave and Gang, you've talked before about vintage cast iron pans having a smoother cooking surface than modern skillets like lodge do.
+
+[45:32] I saw on the YouTube where a guy strips a cast iron pan with something called an Avante quick strip disc available at Home Depot attached to a power drill. Uh do you think this would make an effective way to uh to smooth out the rough surfaces and lodge pans like the vintage ones, thanks in Advanced Joe. Um okay, so I looked into what those are is non-woven, i.e. amorphous, i.e. scotchbrite pads that are impregnated with um, and 3M makes them too, impregnated with uh like uh grinding media like silic silicon carbide, uh and they're hooked onto a power drill.
+
+[46:05] And I looked at one of the YouTube things and it looks like it does work. The the good thing about those wheels is they are very gentle because they kind of like move a little bit, so they're gonna take off, they're gonna make fewer deep marks in your pan than what I would use, which is a flexible sandpaper disc. Flexible sandpaper disc is going to be super quick and get it done super quick, uh, but you will leave marks in it depending on kind of what grit you choose. Um I hate, by the way, I hate sanding with a power drill. There's a reason God invented the angle grinder, and it was because power drills suck for uh for grinding.
+
+[46:43] Because if you look at the video I saw, when you push a power drill down, you have kind of a long stick coming out uh and then the thing at the end. And so as you push it down, um the movement of the disc as it spins tends to pull and process the drill away from you. Uh and it's hard and like it can be hard on your wrist sometimes if you don't have a good grip on it, and it's hard to get nice accurate stuff. Whereas an angle grinder is dead straight, like you can control the hell out of it. So i i I wouldn't go out and buy an angle grinder if this is your only application, but angle grinders, if you do work where you have to sand things, angle grinders come in really, really handy.
+
+[47:22] Just remember that when you take the guard off of your angle grinder, which I know you will do, uh, be careful. Uh like wear gloves because you feed an angle grinder into your knuckle and it's goodbye knuckle. I've seen it happen. It's freaking nasty. Um I think they're gonna kick us off the air.
+
+[47:38] So uh I don't know. What do we got? What do we got left, Dave? You got time for one more. One more.
+
+[47:42] All right. So uh Ben, I'm gonna answer your corn question on Niximalization next time. And also, Mark, I'm gonna answer your Yuba question. Uh, your your pulse uh making by the way, I want anyone who has information on this to tweet me in their information. But we have a uh um uh listener who's interested in making Yuba bean curd skin with alternate sources like uh peas and other pulses and legumes and wants to know if something like transgutaminase might help.
+
+[48:09] So if anyone has experience making Yuba bean curd skins with alternate sources other than soybean, please tweet me at cooking issues and let me know so I have more information for next week when I answer. I have some information, but give me more. So we'll end with Ryan who writes in about Cool Ranch. Um love the show, listen to uh every episode. Man, that's a lot of episodes.
+
+[48:27] Pre order the spinz all, thank you for that. The question is uh my sister ate at a monitor inflected joint, and she was served a lot of foams. She was pretty meh on the experience, but said she'd eat the hell out of a I am too, but said she'd eat the hell out of a cool ranch Doritos flavored foam since she loves the flavor, but hates the fatty fatness of eating a whole bag. Uh I'm paraphrasing. Eat the whole bag.
+
+[48:46] I mean, look, get a smaller bag. If you get a smaller bag, then you eat the whole bag. It's not a problem. Right? Yeah.
+
+[48:51] Right? My motto is that every pizza is a personal pizza if you try hard enough. That's right. Do you like cool ranch Doritos? Who doesn't?
+
+[48:57] Especially with caviar. Really? Oh, yeah. All right. That's try that, people.
+
+[49:02] Uh, how would you go about making something like that more generally? What goes into Cool Ranch flavor besides MSG? No hate here. I love MSG. Well, there was someone on the website and I forgot to write down who they are, but you know, you search it's called like foodie McFoodington.net or something like that.
+
+[49:14] I forget the person's name, uh, who did a knockoff recipe. And the good news is most uh like well-known recipes, someone has attempted a knockoff of it. And so their knockoff for chips now. This is not for foam, but we're gonna deconstruct backwards. Their knockoff for chips was dry ranch uh dressing mix.
+
+[49:34] I don't know why you would buy that since ranch is so freaking easy to make from non-mix, whatever. Don't please people, don't buy dry ranch mix. Do not buy it. Uh more on that in a second. Uh white cheddar cheese powder, okay.
+
+[49:45] So there's a cheese flavor in there, which if you're gonna do it in a foam situation, you're probably gonna have to do in the form of a of a broth or uh or you could use a powder, I guess cheddar cheese powder, but make some sort of cheese brothy thing. Smoked paprika, easy enough. Granulated garlic. I wouldn't use that. I mean in a powder I would, but you garlic.
+
+[50:02] Uh granulated onion, dried tomato powder, so there's a little tomato in cool ranch. Are so cool ranch isn't white, it's a little tinged of uh uh red. Yeah, it's got a little red flux in it. All right. Uh and popcorn salt.
+
+[50:12] That's size of salt important just in terms of making Doritos, not in terms of what you're doing. Okay, so what I'm hearing here is ranch plus cheese plus paprika, extra garlic, onion, and a little bit of tomato. All right. So how do you make ranch? Ranch is that everyone does it differently.
+
+[50:27] Some people use buttermilk, I don't. Uh, it's a mixture of the magic three salad ingredient things, which is sour cream, mayonnaise, and yogurt. You can make basically any, you can use buttermilk, I guess, instead of the yogurt, but any sort of ratio of those that suits your taste. I'm heavy usually on sour cream and mayonnaise and light on yogurt, but that's me. Um, or they're saying light on buttermilk, they would do.
+
+[50:48] But anyway, then it's uh in that is garlic, uh some form of herb. There's herb in ranch. So I add always dill, no matter what, always dill, and then more or less parsley, but you can add kind of any herb that you want, but the classic, so you must have dill. Uh, did I say that already? You must have dill.
+
+[50:59] And um a little bit of parsley, and you can if you add a boat ton of herbs to it, it turns green goddess, which is also really nice. Um and then uh oh, and chives, chives, chives. Do not forget the chives. No chives, no ranch. When my son Dax, who's the ranch master at the house, is he eats salad because I have him make the ranch.
+
+[51:23] He's like, Do you have the chives, Dad? I'm like, no, just substitute onion. He's like, it's not the same, Dad. I'm like, I know, but it's what I've got. Uh and then uh some people, I guess, add Worcestershire sauce.
+
+[51:31] I don't think we really bother. Pepper, uh, a little bit of vinegar, and that's basically it. A little paprika. That's it. So you make a mixture of that, add the other stuff in, some form of cheese flavor, either powdered or not, a little bit of tomato, uh, I would use uh what's the word I'm looking for?
+
+[51:45] Paste, because it's got the heaviest flavor, and you can add a small amount of it. Make it all up, then strain any solids out. Anything that can't, anything that goes through a very fine mesh strainer will not clog your EC. Anything that goes more will add your gelling agent of choice and foam away, right? What do you think, Don?
+
+[52:03] Sounds good, but I don't see how that's any less fattening. Well, you're it's basically air. There's no corn chip. I I guess. There's no corn chip.
+
+[52:14] You could just use a spoon and just go straight into the ranch. More flavor. More flavor? Oh, yeah. Remember, when you're making a foam, you're reducing the flavor by like a factor of a billion because you have to make a very, very over-flavored ranch in order to have any sort of flavor in the phone because you're adding so much air.
+
+[52:32] So you're gonna have to up everything. You know what I mean? Like up everything. You might need to add extra acid, but then you're gonna lose some of the creaminess from the buttermilk. From the not from the buttermilk, you know, I mean from the sour cream and mayonnaise.
+
+[52:42] It should still work, man. It'll work. It's just seems subpar. I don't know. We have to test it.
+
+[52:47] Is anyone made uh Cool Ranch uh anyway, whatever. Anyway, we'll talk about it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[53:12] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[53:39] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from the hell. Where are we? Where are we now, Stas?
+
+[0:53] Where? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Br Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? We do not have Dave in the booth today.
+
+[1:04] We have Victor in the booth today. Victor, how you doing? Doing great. Yeah? Is this your first time uh like being uh being the cooking issues uh engineer, huh?
+
+[1:15] Yes. So like like what do you like to do, Victor? Well, I like to do a lot of music stuff, um, in general. Yeah. What about what about food?
+
+[1:23] You like food? I like eating, yeah. Yeah? Like eating a lot. What do you like to eat?
+
+[1:27] What's your favorite? Um one thing that I eat pretty often is actually rice and beans. Uh love rice and beans. I'm from Brazil, so I grew up uh eating that pretty much every day. Well, with that with that, you put that yucca powder all over everything?
+
+[1:40] Uh yeah, sometimes. You like that stuff? Yeah, like fried yucca and you know meats also. Yeah. All right.
+
+[1:48] Brazilian, huh? Yeah. Alright, nice. Uh all right, speaking of music, I'm actually not in a bad mood today, Nastasia, because I was listening to kind of like where I'm musically come from, early early nineties Connecticut rock. On the way up, I was like uh I found like uh the an album from a band we used to play with all the time.
+
+[2:07] I was listening to it. And they uh still kick uh they still kick us. Nice. Yeah, yeah. You may not know this people, but Nastasio Lopez used to be like the the non the non favor granting backstage queen of the They know this.
+
+[2:24] You've talked about it before. Was it early two thousand? Early two thousand. Yeah, a lot of people didn't listen to that episode. Is that early two thousands when are you doing that stuff?
+
+[2:32] Yes, early two thousands. Yeah. I was thinking to myself, like, you know, like obviously I'm too old to like to be in the band anymore, but I do miss like like listening to that stuff. Like I miss just ending up in like a crumpled mess of like blood and garbage on the floor, which is how all the concerts would end. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:50] Like extremely physical style of playing. You would have hated it. You hate physical style playing, right? You hate it more than anything. Yes.
+
+[2:58] Like I was all about just beating the ever loving crap out of my instrument. Like I would get I would get in a position where like once my wrist would no longer function properly, towards the end of the show, I would just like kind of lock my wrist and then move my whole arm as one unit and then eventually try to bend backwards to have gravity aid my arm and coming down to smash the strings as hard as I could. That was like that earlier ninety style of playing would have been your worst nightmare. Nastasia and I you think we don't get along now. If we had known each other in those days, it would have been a freaking nightmare.
+
+[3:33] Call all of your cooking questions into seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Victor, where are you from in Brazil? Close to São Paulo. Yeah.
+
+[3:43] State of São Paulo, yeah. Not the big capital. No. Outside? So you don't have to deal with the traffic or you still have to deal with the traffic?
+
+[3:50] Not not as much as people who are actually in Sao Paulo. It's a bit better where I live. Yeah. You ever go to one of uh Alex Atlas restaurants when you're over there? I haven't.
+
+[3:59] No? No, not yet. But is it like do you get do you go back often? Is it super popular? Is in other words, is he one of those chefs that's just famous like everywhere else, or is he also famous in Brazil?
+
+[4:08] No, I've heard his name. Yeah. Um yeah, and I do go back. I try to go once a year if I can. Yeah.
+
+[4:15] Wacky fruits. Do you enjoy wacky, the wacky Brazilian fruits? Yeah, a lot. I've seen the Northeast and and North of Brazil. There are pretty pretty cool fruits there.
+
+[4:24] Have you seen the book, The Fruits of Brazil? It's an amazing book. It's blue on the cover, which is very weird with graph paper. You seen this book? Actually, I've seen it.
+
+[4:31] I haven't uh read it, but uh it looks pretty nice. Yeah, why would you? I mean you can just buy that crap. Like us in the US, we look at it, we're like, oh my god, it's like fruit from Maz. But like, you know, you're like, yeah, I just buy that stuff.
+
+[4:42] And I think we've we've mentioned this before, but there's this you gotta look this book up, people on the Amazon. It's expensive. Uh you the cheapest place I ever found it actually was there's a a Hawaiian fruit like farm that sells reasonably priced copies to this book. But the hilarious thing about it is is that if you look in the back under exotic fruit, like it's page after page of things that look like they're straight out of uh straight out of a horror show, straight out of um, you know, uh whatever that one with uh suddenly Seymour is. Little shop of horrors.
+
+[5:08] Weird weird freaking fruits, you know what I mean? And then at the end it's got a an exotic section with the apple. Because that doesn't come from there, you know what I mean? They're like all the native fruits of Brazil, and then, you know, for their exotic fruit, the apple. Anyway, uh, yeah.
+
+[5:24] Somebody, you know, I've never been to Brazil. Stas, you ever go there? Yeah. Any desire to go? No.
+
+[5:28] No desire to go to Brazil? Why? I don't know. Why? Would you though?
+
+[5:29] I would love to go to Brazil. Somebody paid for it. That's my rule with anything. That's my rule with anything. Why don't you take vacations?
+
+[5:41] Who has time for vacations? Like, if is someone if there's a reason for me to go for business, I'll go. But I mean, like, uh here's the thing, like, I wouldn't go for like the the beaches or any of that. No, I don't care. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:53] It's just like the food though. I want to go for the food. Not interested, huh? No. No.
+
+[5:58] They have pretty good food at the beach though. Really? Yeah. Do I have to be near the beach to have the beach food? Yes.
+
+[6:05] Um if you like fish, yeah. Will people will people make fun of me because I'll be dressed in full-length pants, full-length shirt, and a and a wide-brimmed hat with sunglasses on? Yeah, you might want to invest in a speedo or something. Yeah. Ho ho ho ho ho ho.
+
+[6:20] That that, my friend Victor, is something that no one on earth will ever see. It's me in a speedo. Like, unless I'm dead. Then they can see me in a spito, right? Maybe we should change my uh my coffin.
+
+[6:32] Yeah, whatever. We're not gonna get into that family show, family show. Um I mean, what do I care once I'm gone? You know what I mean? Anyway.
+
+[6:39] So let's get to some questions. Uh this is from Zev. Uh, hey Dave, I just listened to last week's uh cooking issues and was disheartened, although not surprised, to hear that nobody else was saddened by the Ringling Brothers uh circus uh shuddering. And Nastasia in particular doesn't care. Right.
+
+[6:53] I would I mention this on there? I was I talked to a bartender who's actually glad it closed. Did I mention that? I can yeah, I can imagine. Well, she you know, she was on the animal activist side, which you know, do you know that all the elephants you know they stopped having elephants a couple years ago, but all the elephants now are on like an elephant preserve in Florida somewhere.
+
+[7:07] They're just like living out their elephant years at a Florida preserve. Whatever. I don't know. You you're like, I don't even care about that. Uh so um Zev says, frankly, I would have been shocked if Circus has made it onto the short list of uh things that Stas doesn't hate.
+
+[7:23] But I I think it's more indifference for you. It's indifference. You mean like which is I don't know, is that is that worse for you, indifference, or his hatred worse? Hatred is worse. Wow, yeah, because her hatred is strong.
+
+[7:34] Uh since you and I both share a love of cooking and a sentiment sentimental soft spot for the circus, I'd like to invite you to join me at the Barclays Center for a show next month. My wife isn't much of a circus fan, but would be gained to make it a double date if Jen andor Booker and Dax uh want to come along as well. Well, I can uh I'll you know I'll check it out. Um unfortunately, Booker would rather wear uh a hot frying pan and uh for underwear than go to a show of any type. So he definitely won't go.
+
+[7:59] But that you know, Dax is a possibility. Can you imagine Booker going to a circus? I once took Booker to uh Walt Disney World, and we took him. There's a at the Universal, it's Universal, right? Is the at the Universal Pictures thing that they have there?
+
+[8:14] Uh we took him to a uh uh a stunt show, a stunt driving slash explosion show, where the heat from the fake pyrotechnic explosions was like so hot that I got a sunburn from it, and it was nothing but all of that, and it wasn't that he was like didn't like the noise or anything, he literally was bored out of his mind, turned around, had his back to the explosions. Now, this was a number of years ago, but like, you know, he's just not uh doesn't enjoy shows, Booker. You know what I mean? Just doesn't enjoy them. Dax, Dax enjoys shows.
+
+[8:43] Uh so anyway, yeah, I'll check it out. Thanks. Um then we got the question uh that uh I was hoping to get some answers from people off of the chat room, but I don't think we did from Mark on forming Yuba. So uh I'll just read it. Um longtime listener, uh food science student writing from the wintry depths of Saskatchewan.
+
+[9:01] I'm embark I like that word. Don't you like that word? Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan. That's a good word.
+
+[9:07] Better than the word Saskatoon, right? Anyway. I'm embarking on a project to produce Yuba-like films with other pulses. Last year, being the year of the pulse, now's the year of the roots. But was it really the year of the pulse?
+
+[9:20] I know we I was supposed to do Year of the Starch, and I didn't really follow through. I did my own starch research, but I didn't really follow through. Anyway, uh year of the pulse. We have tons of pulse products kicking around in our university, and hence the project. I've gone through quite a few trials, including Yuba making procedures, beans to milk to film, uh, with one pulse exhibiting more promise uh than the others.
+
+[9:40] My understanding is that the formation of Yuba is independent of the fat in the soybean, and therefore would mean that most pulses should be able to form some sort of a film barring the different uh amino acid profiles. I would like to know if there's any way to increase the odds of film formation. Would uh lactones or gypsum used in bean curd making uh or any one of those things, uh, or transglutaminates help protein realignment and skin formation. Do you think that having more water, uh i.e. uh-10 bean to water ratio would affect yields, and would there also be a lower threshold that may not allow for film formation due to in uh sufficient protein extra extraction?
+
+[10:14] And is there an easier way to go about this without making first a milk? Would the spins all be useful? Uh uh spin cells are always useful, right, Nastasia? No, I actually in this case I don't think you necessarily need a spinzalt. Mean, I don't think me.
+
+[10:26] Um we'll talk about it in a minute. Um and uh I will give you the names of the pulses that uh what the pulse that was successful, uh, but we've been using sponsored products that with branded names that have no bearing on species. Thanks for taking my question. Love the show. Love Booker and Daxon.
+
+[10:42] Can't wait for the new bar to open. Hey, Mark, uh, me neither. I cannot wait for the new bar to we are looking for a space. If anyone out there knows of a place in Lower Manhattan that uh, you know, is closing down or needs a bar into it, let us know. Uh so back to the Yuba.
+
+[10:56] Uh so for those of you that don't know uh kind of what Yuba is, um Yuba is uh the same thing as bean curd skin. Uh most of the time when you buy it, you're buying it uh dried, and then you have to rehydrate it. But it's like it's used in a lot of um a lot of vegetarian dishes like uh mock duck and these kinds of things. I think it's a fantastic ingredient, but nothing is as delicious. One of the most delicious soy products is fresh Yuba.
+
+[11:24] And I guess you could buy fresh Yuba. Um I usually make it when I make it. It's kind of a pain in the butt uh making Yuba because you have to get these kind of like um what you do is is you make a relatively thick uh soy milk. So I would think that a thicker soy milk would actually be better for you, Mark, at least this is my memory. It's been on it's been probably a year since I've made Yuba.
+
+[11:44] Um but then you get a relatively wide pan, because what you're trying to do is you're trying to create a an actual skin, very very much akin to the skin that forms on top of hot milk. Uh and you heat it to kind of a temperature where it's uh what's happening is is that the proteins are aggregating at the surface of the uh milk in this large sheet, along with um the lipids, and according to the research I read, uh some of the uh carbohydrate that's in it, some of the sugars and carbohydrate that is in it, forms a protein skin, you pull it off, and then another skin forms. Uh and you can do this again and again, but one of the interesting things about Yuba is that as you are depleting the uh protein from the um, as you're depleting the protein from the from the soy milk, the Yuba is actually changing over time. So it's a super interesting, super delicious. You you hang them up to kind of semi-dry, but just like fresh, warm Yubah with just like a little bit of like a sauce drizzle over the top.
+
+[12:44] Fantastic. And by the way, the uh what's her name? Andrea Nguyen, if you want to look she has a uh a soy and tofu book that I believe has decent instructions for Yuba, although I was too stupid to take a look at my copy before I came. The old shirt leaf book on soy probably has an explanation of Yuba, but I would probably go with the with the Nguyen book to look at it. But it if you've never made Yuba well worthwhile.
+
+[13:15] Now as for what's actually going on your questions with the fat uh so some of the studies I looked at show indeed that the fat does matter. So it is primarily the protein and protein will by itself form a skin but either too little or too much fat uh in the Yuba will um negatively affect your yield and also obviously the texture of it. Now the larger it's kind of interesting you like when you're when when they did the studies looking at the soy milk as it was being made they noticed that the protein was being depleted duh because it's protein film but then the the lipid uh fraction of the soy milk I think was actually static or going up and that's because not as much of the fat was being incorporated into the skin uh as was in the in the bulk phase but it was a l don't quote me on this because I was reading this research kind of in a flurry this morning uh but it was the larger which makes sense fat um uh fat globs that were globules that were getting incorporated in because they're the ones that are floating up close near the surface. So it's an interesting kind of uh enrichment product. Now back to your uh problem they've also done uh research on Yuba and on tofu for the ratio of what's called the 7S to 11S proteins which are the ones that are studied a lot for um tofu formation and those numbers and their similar proteins are published for other pulses and you can kind of look them up and see what your uh like 7s 11 S ratio is and try to and and maybe look at the fat and I mentioned on the when we started talking about this last week uh an article that has kind of the breakdown of what the soy is versus other pulses so you can look at them and uh try to assess kind of what's best.
+
+[14:59] Now as for using a curding thing uh when you're when you're adding a curding agent to tofu you don't add curding agent to to make Yuba um you're you're but you're favoring aggregation but it's not the same aggregation that happens in that happens when you're making Yuba which is I guess uh heat denaturation and as well as partial dehydration and aggregation at the surface where the where the dehydration is it's my guess uh you know plus the fact that the that stuff I guess as it denatures I guess floats up near the top and and aggregates. So is it possible that like some slight amount of uh self-aggregation through like like partial coagulation might help? Yeah but it might ruin the whole thing too. You know what I mean as it heats it I mean like you I I don't know. It like I would try it because obviously I would try it, but I don't know.
+
+[15:50] On the other side, transglutaminase would probably help as long as it was below a threshold that would like what I would do is you would incubate the milk with the transglutaminase to like slightly increase how uh aggregated the proteins are cross-link the proteins are, not enough to gel it, and then heat it to a point where you wipe out the transglutaminase, and now you just have your modified proteins so they could link together up at the top. And I would try to get a fat content fairly similar to what soybean is. Make sense, Tess? Do you like Yuba? No.
+
+[16:20] Really? Not really. But like in any form? Or not the fresh Uba? Actually, I like Brooks' Yuba Sloppy Joe.
+
+[16:27] Sloppy a Yuba Sloppy Joe? What does that mean? Like that he wraps the fake sloppy joe in the Uba or he hacks Yuba up and mixes. Yeah. Hacks Yuba up.
+
+[16:37] Uh okay. Uh now gotta go to uh last week's questions. Give me one moment. You want to take a commercial break and come right back? All right, we'll we'll come right back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[17:02] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream.
+
+[17:26] All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps's amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[17:55] For more information and to order yours now visit chefsteps.com slash J O U L E did I really tell people to chill to the cocktail and that's people uh yeah I mean like whatever whatever you should never listen to yourself on the air like have you ever listened to the show? Yeah. And it's horrifying to listen to yourself, right? Well I don't talk much, but you're funny. Looking um okay.
+
+[18:29] Oh speaking of uh Sous vide so uh I built this so I'm going through a lot of the same problems writing the uh low temperature uh well sous vide remember I said it before on the air I lost that argument right it's it's it's sous vide cooking now whether it's in a vacuum or it's not the imprecise evil weasels and marketeering jackwads of the world have won and everyone freaking calls the technique sous vide even though like I very rarely use a vacuum machine. Am I still bitter about it? Am I still angry about it? Yes it's not sous vide cooking for the most part but you know whatever. Like I don't know what other things are like that are like completely imprecise and yet have like they win.
+
+[19:12] And it's French word. Like it's so weird. You know what I mean? I mean, look, obviously I understand maybe low temperature is not like, you know, uh a rousing word. No one's like running to the, you know, running off to make some.
+
+[19:24] I'm gonna make low temperature blah. You know what I mean? Maybe the French uh term juscatemp that uh Bruno Gousseau uses, juska, the exact temperature. He's like, the temperature is not always low. It is the exact temperature.
+
+[19:39] I'm like, he doesn't talk like that. He's got a you know an older French man voice, but like in a nice Frenchman voice, but you know what I mean? Different French man voice. But anyway, so he uses juscatem, and I'm like, jusqu'aton, tant, not temp, ton, jusqu'atten. Anyway, so like uh that doesn't work in English either.
+
+[19:56] Or either. And uh, yeah, so sous vide, I've lost that. But I've been working on it, and one of the and this actually kind of dovetails with a question we had a couple of weeks ago. Um, for those of you that do cook in a sous vide, and now I'm talking in in a vacuum machine, or you know, using things that are vacuum-packed, or uh in an immersion circulator at all at lower temperatures, one of the kind of problems is that red meats in particular um look kind of bloody to a lot of people. And so most of us tour cooks, you know, don't, like Trump, eat our steaks well done.
+
+[20:32] Although I was told, who is it that told me that Obama also liked his steaks well done? Was he lying to me? Was he just trying to be like nonpartisan and like tell me that like is it that presidents have to eat their steaks well done because uh because they're so worried that they're gonna get the poops while they have to run the free world? Is that what it is? It's like it's like in space you're not allowed to have anything that's cooked, you know, rare in space because getting the craps in a space capsule is like the end of all ends, like you know, you get all that stuff sprayed all over the inside of the capsule is like the end of times for you.
+
+[21:05] Is it the same thing being president? You told me that you the story you heard was that they used to have like a setup for doing low temp cooking at the White House. They got rid of it. They got rid of it, right? Yeah.
+
+[21:14] Didn't care for it. Anyway, well, you know, who needs it if you're gonna cook everything well done anyway, right? If you're just gonna like, if you're just gonna take like every piece of protein that you have and like, you know, burn the hell out of it, well, then why do you need to do low temperature? Am I right? Anyway, anyway, disappointed eggs though, right?
+
+[21:34] If you're gonna do brunch, it's the only thing. Yeah, but I guess, but you know what? I guess how small is the White House kitchen? Did you get to see it? No, I don't know.
+
+[21:41] Like uh, I mean, is it I wonder whether it's big or whether it's small like the James Beard House? I mean, the thing about like if I mean it may maybe they have a big enough staff that can just have someone sit there and do the eggs, or maybe they do it Kenji uh Kenji Lopez Alt style and they just dump all of the eggs in at once and like let them separate out. You seen that where he he poaches like 10 eggs at a time and pulls them out? Anyways, point being that, or maybe they just don't do eggs Benedict. I mean, if I was the president of the United States, I'd be like, you know what I feel like while I'm running the free world?
+
+[22:10] I feel like some eggs benedict. And then the next day I'd be like, you know what I feel like? Eggs Florentine. I would just do every single poached egg on a on an English muffin kind of uh prep that I could possibly have prepared for me, like at any time, day or night. Because poached eggs, if I had someone on staff who would constantly bring me poached egg preparations, like that's what would happen.
+
+[22:30] We'd have to rename them American muffins if I was president because that's how many of them I would eat. You like English muffin, you like an eggs florentine, right? What do you like better? A Benedict or a Florentine? Florentine.
+
+[22:39] Really? Uh because you like the spinach. Huh. But how much do you hate it when they don't press enough of the liquid out of the spinach and it bleeds that disgusting black spinach water all over everything and it sops into the freaking English muffin, and it's just like a messy, like gob of garbage on the bottom of your power? Is that irritate the hell out of you?
+
+[22:59] Anyway, I forget how we got into this. Oh, so one of the problems when you're yeah, when you're when you're cooking low temperature, one of the problems is that the color of the meats is often off-putting to um people, so as uh, you know, one of the prejudices that we as cooks have to overcome a lot of the time with people we cook for, is that um, and I have to overcome this myself. This is I'm talking about myself, but I think also for a lot of our listeners, is we feel like we know what you would like if you had your brain screwed in straight. You know what I'm saying? Like, or your head screwed on straight.
+
+[23:35] So it's like I know for a fact that you would like the taste of this steak better if it was cooked bel at for God's sakes below 57 Celsius, right? Like I prefer to 55. I can understand if you don't want it at 55, but for God's sakes, you don't want it higher than 57. You really don't. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:55] Uh and like, you know, and we all have this feeling, people who cook this way, that if I just put a blindfold over you and gave you the steak the way I want you to want the steak, that you would want the steak the same way. But the problem is you can't really cook that way. You can't cook based on what you think somebody else should like. You have to cook based on what they actually like. And if they see a meat that looks too red for them, for whatever reason, whether they're a germaphobe like Trump, whether they grew up eating shoe leather uh so that they need shoe leather in order to feel like that stuff's gonna be good, who knows why?
+
+[24:28] Like maybe they grew up eating their steak drenched in A1 steak sauce. Were you one of those people's styles? Were you did you were you a ketchup? Whoa, on steak? Ketchup on whoa!
+
+[24:38] What does it matter? With scrambled eggs? No. It matters because of the addition of Worcestershire sauce makes it more steak-like. I'm just saying if it's like a piece of something with like sugary tomato stuff on it.
+
+[24:52] Sugary vinegary tomato stuff. Look, I'm with you, but like my point is that, but so food was horribly over um, no offense. Food was horribly overcooked in your house, yeah? So you needed to cut things into small pieces and douse them and stuff to make them palatable, right? They still frankly have a nice meat taste.
+
+[25:09] Look, meat has a nice meat taste when it's overcooked. It's just the texture of it that is objectionable to us kind of sous-vide and low temperature jockeys, right? We would prefer the rare steak. But on the other hand, right? I mean, this is what I think the average person who the average person who looks at a rare steak cooked traditionally, right, uh, thinks that it's gonna be that bloody squidgy, you know that when I say squidgy, you know what I mean, right?
+
+[25:32] That squidgy texture on the inside of a steak. Well, the issue is that the color of a steak is only um, I mean, it is related to, but not directly related to the temperature at which the steak is is cooked to, right? So uh you can have a vacuum-packed steak that's cooked for a long time uh at a temperature that is not squidgy, right? And one that you might actually accept as medium rare, let's say you're a medium-rare person, but it still looks too rare for you to eat, and so you're put off by it. And the reason for it, the reason this happens, is that the actual um well, there's a number of reasons.
+
+[26:09] One, uh the protein that's in, and we talked a little bit about this, but the protein that's in uh steak and meats in general, uh, that causes it to be red or not is uh myoglobin. And myoglobin comes in three basic forms in meat. It comes uh as uh the oxymyoglobin, which is a red one. We talked a little bit about this before, and the um the deoxymyoglobin, which is what you get inside of a vacuum bag, it's kind of purplish, and uh met myoglobin, which is kind of the brown stuff that happens as it oxidizes, right? And what color the meat, and again we talked about I've just ran some more experiments, in fact, this morning, the color of the meat as it cooks is directly related to the state that the myoglobin is in as you cook it.
+
+[26:57] So I cooked, uh I took a thin piece of uh eye of round, which by the way I think is a garbage piece of meat, like on its own. You ever just eaten like like tucked into a you take so like something like an eye of round, you know, I have round, you know the round, rounds the like the back end of the back side of the leg of the cow there, that area, and the eye of round is a relatively lean cut with relatively little going on. If you long, but people want to cook that one low temperature because it doesn't have that much connective tissue, so they think they can, it's also very lean, and all these idiots who are like super pro excuse me if you're one of these idiots, but like who like super lean, lean meat, like think it's gonna be a good piece of meat, but it's just not very interesting piece of meat. Like it doesn't offer a lot of textural variation across the meat. It is not good if you overcook it.
+
+[27:45] I mean, it's good kind of as a London broil where you just char the piss out of the outside, and so it's like kind of crunchy, and then slice it thin, real thin on the like and then like and then like put sauce on it or something like that. Anyway, uh I I digress. So I had these pieces of the of the round and I cooked them to very accurate temperatures within a tenth of a degree. I did a temperature ramp because I built the I built my own kind of the reason this came up is I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna take pictures for the book. I uh if you go on cooking issues, the blog it still exists.
+
+[28:14] I had we haven't done anything with it in years, but uh there's a section called um uh low temperature or sous vide and in it are a series of pictures and charts that I developed when I was working at the French culinary to teach low temperature and sous vide stuff way back in the day like oh oh eight, oh nine, something like this, or even earlier, 07 and we put them up on the blog when the blog started in 10 or whatever when we started it. And um I'd worked a lot on trying to take pictures of meats at various kind of temperatures and always found it was very hard because it like how much oxygen was on the meat really changed kind of the way it looked. And so today I I built uh like a plate heater, like a super accurate flat plate heater um and was taking pictures of the meat and meat that's cooked even very accurately and very quickly uh just up to 50 50 or 55 degrees Celsius which is rare, rare, rare, rare brown when it was cooked in full oxygen. So my recommend right recommendation to you is that let's say you have uh this goes against some of my recommendation for any of you who've known me for like a decade or more I always recommend that when you're vacuum packing meats, right, uh that you especially if you've just started learning how to vacuum pack, that you let meat sit in the vacuum pack for a half hour or an hour before you have to cook. Why?
+
+[29:40] The answer is because uh a good chunk of your vacuum packages will be bad. If you've just started learning how to vacuum, a good number on the order, I've seen some students where like 10% of their vacuum packs are bad because they haven't figured out how to accurately align the bag along the ceiling uh arm. They are, you know, get little pieces of pepper or spices into the seal. Uh for whatever reason, they they don't get a good seal. And over the course of that half hour to hour that it sits before you cook it, uh it can sit in the fridge or whatever.
+
+[30:14] Um you'll notice where leaks happen because the bag will start to come away from the meat. You'll also notice if you're uh bagging something with bones, you'll notice that the bone, like if a bone accidentally punctured your bag, which is you know, you should take care to wrap bones and things like cellophane, uh you know, not lit polyethylene wrap, uh, to kind of protect them, but or to stop them from puncturing your bag. But that half hour uh can mean the difference between getting a leaker and leakers can be okay in the sense that sometimes not enough product leaks into your bag to ruin your meat, but they can also be catastrophic. I've had like leakers where they leak so much that it they might as well be in the water bath, which is gross. You've seen those bags, right, Stas?
+
+[30:55] They are disgusting. Uh so I I made that recommendation, but for something like a uh a meat, a steak that you're gonna serve at a relatively low temperature, let's say 55 uh degrees Celsius around their bouts. Um I recommend cutting it out of your vacuum bag if it came in a vacuum bag, uh doing maybe a pre-sear uh, but wait, but in order before you do any of that, just let it sit out for like 20 minutes, 30 minutes on a rack, in your fridge, out, wherever you're gonna do it, let it oxygen up. Let the meat get as much oxygen in it as possible. Now, this is not good for long-term storage stability, right?
+
+[31:39] Because you want as little oxygen as possible on the meat for long-term storage ability. But in terms of the color development of the meat as it cooks, you want to have it uh out and and like oxygen going into it for a while. And so it how fast it diffuses in is something I'm still trying to look up, and I'm trying to figure out a way that I can steal, borrow, or beg an oxygen probe so I can actually measure the time it takes for oxygen to get to the middle of the steak when you've taken it out. Uh if anyone knows anyone out there who can loan me one or or has one, has to be one that I can actually measure, like uh with a probe, uh, you know, an IR one, a fiber optic one. Um optical rather.
+
+[32:16] Um you let it oxygen up like that, then I would do uh ziploc bag instead of vacuum for your cook step because it's gonna have uh less depletion of oxygen because you're not gonna subject it to a vacuum, and then have it go right in the bath, like pff boom, right in the bath. And then the faster the heat travels through that while there's still oxygen there, the better off you're gonna be. So let's say you're gonna cook your steak to 55. I know it's a long explanation, but I've been thinking a lot about it, and you know, this is a problem people have. Let's say you were gonna cook a steak to 55.
+
+[32:48] The real life uh truth is that you're gonna take that steak and you're gonna sear it afterwards, and so the stuff that's uh you know not right around the edge, in other words, even up to like uh a quarter of an inch is gonna be a couple of degrees higher than 55. So, what I would do is I would throw it in at a higher temperature. I would throw it in at like uh 57 um 57, maybe even 58, 57 is probably safer. Let it sit for like 10-15 minutes, then put it down at 55, let the bath drop to 55 as it would. Let this this is for a thick steak, by the way.
+
+[33:22] Thin steak, just put it right in at 55. Thin steak, right in a 55. I'm talking thick steak. Uh it'll come in, you won't overcook the center, you'll overcook by a couple of degrees, a little bit of the stuff around the side, but you're gonna have denatured that um uh myoglobin faster than it can deplete its oxygen as it's as is as it's uh packaged that way, and you're better off there. You're gonna have a better chance of um getting a better colored meat for your customer that doesn't like uh that cherry red.
+
+[33:50] The other thing you can do that we used to do all the time is if you pre-slice your meat, which is a good idea with steaks. Uh you know, I like doing it, is you you bring it out, you do your your hard sear, you do your hard sear on it. I always drop the temperature down to 50 or even lower before I do my hard sear so I don't overcook the meat. When you slice it, you can do a real fast flash under uh a salamander or grill or even with a searsol, and just decolor that top and take it right off. But anyway, uh one of the things I've been talking uh thinking about uh more uh since we answered that question, so I thought I'd deal with it.
+
+[34:23] And then you know, we can talk a little bit maybe next time about the miracle of moisture management and how that affects uh low low temperature CV cooking. Anyway, um that helped no one, right, Stas? No one, no one, no one cares. Um okay. Uh we got a question in from Ben.
+
+[34:40] I'm not sure if this is the best place to send this question. Guess it is, because here it is, we have it, right? Um, but I'm hoping to clear up an issue I'm having when I attempt to deep fry a taco shell made of nixdomalized corn. Uh so for those of you that I don't know nixtimalization, uh, you know, I like it a lot. It's like super awesome.
+
+[34:58] That it's a the technique is where you take traditionally corn and you soak it, you heat it, partially gelatinize it, and um in a in an alkaline, in an alkaline uh mixture, typically calcium hydroxide or cal. Uh and you heat it, it partially gelatinizes the um the starch in the corn, partially cooks it. It also turns the uh outside of the you know of the corn into a goop. And then you wipe the goop off, uh it's now easier to mill, which is why it originally did, but also the goop that remains, and so like part of the art of nixtimalization is how much you cook it, i.e., how much of the starch you gelatinize, how much you cook it out, so much how much water is it take in, etc. Uh also uh how much um of the cow do you have in, how much of that cow taste, that calcium hydroxide taste, which is what distinguishes a tortilla from a cornmeal uh flavor, and and then how much you rinse off the goop on the outside, because the goop on the outside, along uh with the um the uh germ from the corn, uh the fat and all the other stuff from the germ of the corn is what gives masa, which is the dough for tortillas, its amazing properties, and why you don't need to add anything else to it to get it to work.
+
+[36:12] Um so anyway, so that's what nixtimalization is. I continue with the question. Uh the problem I've encountered is that when attempting to fry the uh nyxtamalized shell after properly uh cooking the corn using the nixamalization process outline in the cooking issues blog, they tend to puff and become tough, not crispy. My question lies in the only solution I found to be effective overcooking the corn. When I am nixtimalizing the corn, I cook it to the point where it is soft all the way through.
+
+[36:40] My understanding is this is not ideal for making masa, but when I grind, press, and fry this overcooked, almost gummy corn, the shells are thin and crispy. Any insight on why this may be? I appreciate the time. Thanks, Ben. Um okay, so uh now it's been a long time since I've done heavy nixtimalization work, and many people, many, many people have done a lot of work over the past oh you know, six what are seven years, whatever it was since I wrote that post on nixtimalization.
+
+[37:11] Uh what? Nine? No, I didn't write it. When did I write the nixtimalization post? Really?
+
+[37:17] Mm-hmm. Anyways, whatever. Old man. So uh the it's been a while, so I like I don't have it in my in my fingers and in my blood the way I did back then, but the um puffing is usually a good sign when you're making a fresh tortilla, right? So like most people, and remember there's all different kinds of uh grinds of uh masa.
+
+[37:42] So a coarser masa is gonna puff less on a camal than a by the way. Did you say that you cooked them on the camal before you tried to fry them? Uh properly cooking the corn, nixtimalization, uh tend to puff and let me see. When I am nixalizing corn, I could have put it. My understanding is not a different grind, press, and fry.
+
+[38:03] You're cooking it before you fry it, right? You still have to fry, you still have to cook it on a camal before you fry it. Right? I mean, like that I I'm pretty sure you probably already do that because you have to do that. But um a very fresh, especially very finely ground tortilla should puff and be very kind of like light, and like that's like a hallmark of a good style tortilla.
+
+[38:26] I also like denser, coarser tortillas. Those will not puff as much. Um so you could deal with the coarseness of grind there. I've never attempted to overcook the heck out of corn to see kind of what happens. The other thing is that the fresher the tortilla is, the more it's gonna puff.
+
+[38:44] And so I have honestly never fried a tortilla the day I've made it because whenever I'm nixtimalizing I nixtimalize for um fresh soft use and then if I'm gonna fry I'll fry like day old um day old tortillas not like the tortillas I just made that day because the amazing thing about fresh masa the taste of it is actually fine the next day it's okay I mean not fine it's okay the next day but what you're never gonna get back is that texture. You know what I'm saying, Nastasia? You're never gonna get that texture back. So here's what I would recommend one just make sure that you're cooking it out on the camal like perfect you know well because you need to get rid of uh some of the moisture in that cooking process and to cook the tortilla together so that it has structure. One of the if you say it's gummy if it's puffing and gummy it's got uh it's it must be having as it puffs it's probably has the ability to store too much residual water it's hard for you to dry out the tortilla.
+
+[39:44] Frying a tortilla until it's crispy is essentially the art of removing all of the water from it before it it scorches. I'll give you an example of how I fry tortilla chips. I take I don't I don't make I buy when I'm making tortilla chips I just buy garbage uh tortillas because I'm gonna fry the heck out of them anyway. I shouldn't probably admit that but I do but you can throw a tortilla chip and I think I said this on the air before you can throw like a cut uh cold tortilla chip into cold oil and just ramp up the temperature because all you're doing is getting rid of all of the water that's in that tortilla. So if it puffs, it's probably gonna be more difficult for you to get rid of all of the water that's on the inside.
+
+[40:25] Then when it deflates, it's not gonna be um it's not gonna be crunchy. In fact, if you take any fresh tortilla and you fry them, and you fry them at too high of a temperature, right? You'll notice that some of the tortillas will start to brown because the water has left them, and you have to pull them out, and you'll notice a blonding area on the other parts of the tortillas, and those will be soft. Even a marginally under fried tortilla chip is gross and tough. So, like what I would what I typically do, and you know, a lot depends on how fresh your oil is.
+
+[40:58] So if you're frying at home, I don't know where you're frying, but if you're frying at home, um older oil tends to color your tortillas faster, and younger oil tends to um make them more blonde. So I I always just test the texture of them when I'm pulling out. If I don't, if I'm walking in a situation I don't know what condition the oil's in. So you just pull it out and you tap on it with your hand, like you tap on it, and you can feel instantly with the tip of your finger. Uh I mean, if you aren't used to doing this, you're gonna burn the hell out of your finger.
+
+[41:28] But if you've already burnt the hell out of your finger so many times that your finger has no feeling left in it, like you can just tap the surface of a tortilla, just pull it out for a second, let it drain, tap, tap, tap, feel the surface of it, and know whether or not you've gotten rid of all the water. Obviously, also like looking at it visually for the amount of bubbling coming out of it is a good sign for um how much water you've gotten out of it. But what's interesting to me is that overcooking it appears to have made it easier for you to extract all of the water from the tortilla. Um, and I I don't know why. It's interesting that that's the case.
+
+[41:59] But uh anyway, those are the in in in this order, I would maybe grind it not quite as uh um uh fine. I would uh make sure you're thoroughly cooking it out on the on a well, we say a kamal, a griddle is what we all use. Even like I used cast iron sizzle platters sometimes to do them. Uh two, uh let them sit around for a while to kind of cool off and retrograde before you fry them uh so that they act more like an old tortilla than a new tortilla, uh, and then maybe uh take your oil temperature down a little bit and let it fry until it stops uh bubbling. But yeah, but you don't want them to because you can take a tortilla chip that puffs and still fry it really crispy, like witness if you've gone to a Mexican restaurant that fries its own chips, you'll notice that every once in a while you'll get uh like a hugely bubbled tortilla chip.
+
+[42:48] It's still crunchy as hell because they fried all the water out of it, right? Anyway, um you know what I hate Nastasia when they when they when they haven't properly drained the tortilla chips and you get that tortilla chip with the bubble, but the bubble still has the oil in it. You know what I'm talking about? You've never had that happen? You've never been in a restaurant and they give you that basket of chips.
+
+[43:08] And first of all, here's another thing I don't like. I don't like when the chips come and they didn't bother to unfold the tortilla, so you have that tortilla that's folded in half, or when they didn't bother to shake the freaking basket, so you have like three tortillas glued together, and the one in the middle is that gummy nonsense. These are tortilla fouls, my friend. You've had that happen, Nastasia. That is a tortilla foul.
+
+[43:26] Here, the top order of tortilla fouls at a at a Mexican restaurant, is first not giving you tortillas. Smack yourself. That stuff doesn't cost that much money. Give me some freaking tortillas. Remember I have you noticed this that recently they like like people have gone skimpier and skimpier on the tortillas when they hand you like a basket of of tortilla chips, right?
+
+[43:43] What? Yeah, it's stuff's good. So uh under fried tortillas, nightmare. Fried in rancid oil, so it tastes like cardboard, freaking nightmare. Under salted tortillas, freaking nightmare, and tortillas that they didn't uh that they didn't bother to separate.
+
+[43:59] So no tortillas is worse than rancid oil tortillas. Ooh, is no this is a good question. Would I rather would I rather just to not have to converse with people, have the loud internal head crunching that a tortilla brings, even if I also have to have with it that rancid cardboard flavor of the bad oil. How much how much uh salsa do I have? And is it spicy enough to cover the Yeah, I guess that's the That's the question.
+
+[44:31] Like I'll sit there and crunch on ice, I'll do anything. You know to not talk? Well, you know, it depends. At like a party or something like this, you know what I mean? You're the same way.
+
+[44:40] Yeah, but you you pretend you don't like to talk, but you talk a lot. Yeah. Well, no, but like it depends on like whether or not like I know the people or not. Like you notice, like, if we're at like in like a new situation, we sit there and she's like, well, fill my water fast, because I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up something and eat it or drink it, like at a phenomenal rate, just so that my mouth is always doing something. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:00] So anything, so I think like in in an awkward social situation, the rancid tortilla is better than no tortilla, so long as there's a salsa. Because it's not worth the temporary feeling okay about munching that thing just so the crunch is like drowning everything out. Because when you eat that much rancid oil later on in the night, you're just like, it's not that I don't ever feel sick because I'm not a human being. I've built of like some sort of like iron device that allows me to like ingest anything without harm. But you just feel gross, you just don't feel good.
+
+[45:34] You know what I mean? There's a difference between feeling sick and just not feeling good about what you've done. You know what I mean? You know, anyway. Uh, that's uh my thoughts on tortillas, cooking issues.
+
+[45:59] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[46:28] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Burst Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 in Bushwick. Oh yeah. Well, there's actually nobody here right now because Roberta's is closed.
+
+[0:58] Uh hey, uh they had their staff party last night, he said. Yeah. Oh me, oh, this every year, dude. Every year. It was like they were mopping up a murder scene this morning.
+
+[1:07] Every freaking year. Okay, so Nastasi the Hammer Lopez is with us. We got Dave in the booth. How are you guys doing? So what the hell, man?
+
+[1:14] Porter has to come in. I see the freaking poor Porter has to come in and move stuff around. Yeah, they party and then they can't go to work. Listen, listen, you know who I told you, you know who I respect? No offense, you guys here, Roberta.
+
+[1:24] You're not here to be offended. But like the freaking guys at like Nomad at EMP, they will burn their freaking four-star restaurant to the freaking ground. Right. They'll they'll like be like they'll be swimming in the in like pools of their own liquor and vomit. They will somehow manage to like pressure wash the nastiness off of their bodies and show up and deliver impeccable service the next day.
+
+[1:50] That's true. That is the way it is done. That is true. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[1:55] This place. No offense. Hey, look, I like you guys. I like you guys. I'm just saying.
+
+[2:02] Nastasia intends to offense. Did you walk in that way? I walked in through the it smells like beer. It smells like there's like sticky on your shoes. There's a wine bottle in the entry here.
+
+[2:14] It's like a movie theater. It's awful. Let me ask you a question. Would you be angry? Look at this guy with his like look at him.
+
+[2:22] So the porter has covered himself like Batman in a in like some sort of cape of a recycled bag so he's not showered with the disgusting stuff that he has to like wade through now. He literally has a Batman cape on. A blue plastic trash bag as a yeah. As a as a Batman cape to protect himself from the horror. Dave, is that to come?
+
+[2:44] Oh Dave, oh my god, Dave. Family show. I think that's one of the servers. Oh god. Family show, family show.
+
+[2:50] Miss, do you need help? Family show, Dave. Jeez, Luis. There's a disco ball here. I might steal that.
+
+[2:56] I love disco balls. Still going. Yeah. I don't think they would notice. I built a disco ball.
+
+[3:00] I told you that story, right? I built a disco ball. I made it myself. I didn't have the money, so I I literally took a mirror and cut it with glass cutters and glued it to a styrofoam ball. Found my child, this is in college, found my childhood erector set motor, glued like two by fours together, had a bat I took I back in the day we used to have these um power supplies on our computers so that they wouldn't go down.
+
+[3:22] Strapped one of those to my back with a strobe light and like a blender and would walk around playing like disco music with a strobe light and a disco ball over my head. I like disco balls. Who doesn't like disco balls? So you were the party. I was the party.
+
+[3:39] I was the party. I uh we had a gig one night and I brought it to the gig and I actually played with the disco ball over my head because we were playing in some crappy bar called Poco Loco. And Walt, the guy who ran Poco Loco, made some inappropriate like hand touching of uh the guitarist girlfriend. Anyway, that aside the point, I lost the disco ball that night. It was uh This is uh we can get in trouble for this.
+
+[4:02] We were not playing disco though, Dave. Uh uh in case you did not know this. I said you walked around with disco music playing. Uh I walked out sometimes, but when I was at the gig, I was playing, you know, our early 90s kind of grunge punk grunge funk punk. That you know, we were that part of that, well part of it.
+
+[4:19] We were at the same time as we weren't part of anything. You're a big Chi Peps fan there. We were uh well, first of all, they they lost me. Mother's Milk was the last album that I liked. So everyone that knows the Chili Peppers now, like I was uh an uplift mofo party plan kind of a fellow and a huge fishbone fan.
+
+[4:38] I was a giant fishbone fan. Like, so like I started, I just had nothing to do with anything, but like that in that era, like I was listening to for California stuff, I was like Chili Peppers Fishbone, but early stuff. As soon as Anthony Keatis started doing ballads, I was like, No, no! You know what I mean? And then uh what else?
+
+[4:56] I don't know. I I used to listen to I don't know. Like of that style, that's what I listened to. Uh, plus I listened to all the actual old stuff, and you know, we like Jane's addiction a lot. Do people still listen to Jane's addiction?
+
+[5:08] Uh I don't think so. Really? That was such good stuff, nothing shocking. Such good stuff. Uh anyway, so so oh, by the way, Nastasia, and the search goes on.
+
+[5:18] Uh, we still do not have a space for the new bar. I thought we had a new space for the bar, and uh, you know, my partner went to the community board, and they're not granting any new liquor licenses in that area. Nothing! Oh my god. They're such jackweeds, man.
+
+[5:29] It's so hard to start community. What uh number is it? It was on Avenue A. No, but what's the three. So like uh like the uh th the thing yeah, three, right?
+
+[5:43] So I think like so for those of you that don't know, start like New York, as I said before, as much as I love it, it's incredibly unpleasant for a large number of reasons. One of which is like starting a business in New York City, the reason they say if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere, is not that the customers, it's it's like literally, if you can jump through the freaking hoops to do what you need to do here, then you can basically do that anywhere because the city is designed to stop you from doing anything. Whether that is like, you know, it's to stop you from like being able to build anything because you literally can't get anywhere to do anything, or like we've had this discussion before, like when you you know how when you go in the suburbs and you buy something, you can leave it in your car for for like at least like five, ten minutes. You can buy it at a home depot, then go to a stop and shop, and you'll know your car will still be there. Yeah.
+
+[6:30] Oh, it's not like a taxi. You'd be like, hey, taxi, uh, or or Uber, hey, can you hold like this 35 tons of crap that I need to actually do or build something? No, which is why here in New York, people hire people to do the simplest freaking things. Because everything here is impossible. So starting a uh starting a bar, which is one of the reasons I like it, like I like things.
+
+[6:49] I like self-punishment, right? Which is one of the reasons I like, you know, kind of like New York. But I mean, starting a bar in New York, first of all, if you want to get a liquor license in this city, right? You if you don't if you don't want to apply fresh. Let's say I wanted to be uh on Avenue A, which by the way I do.
+
+[7:05] Here's the thing: it you'd need to take somebody's liquor license who's still operational. You'd need to take them on as a 20 at least 27% partner for two years. Otherwise, it's basically a new application. Now, they might grant uh a new application to a place that already had an application, but you never know, they might not. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[7:24] So you you're taking someone in for this this two years, then you know, so if you if you try to get a new liquor license, they're like no, or they're like beer and wine only, right? And and here's their thing: it's this neighborhood's already saturated. They don't want the bars. It's like, what the hell do you think you're doing? Listen, I'm f I'll be 46 in March.
+
+[7:45] I remember what the East Village, what Alphabet City was like in the 80s. It was a stinking hellhole. All right. Now, what is it that these people want to go back to? Like, what is it?
+
+[7:57] Is it that like five-year period, like between when the heroin addicts left the park and when all of a sudden like all of the NYU students and people started coming into bars, is it that five-year period that they're Jonesing for? In the mid-90s, right? You know what I mean? Or is it, or is it that like these old geezers who are on this thing, what they really want is they wanted to live in their leather pants and grunge and punk life back when that was that because it was cool back then, and now they just want to live in mellow senescence for the rest of their life with nothing else happening. Bars need to be where other bars are, and they don't get that, right?
+
+[8:34] So they're like literally, if you want a license, there needs to be uh not like what they say, not a saturation uh of places around. So if you're opening a restaurant, this is the theory I've been telling everyone, and they need to listen. If you're trying to open a restaurant, right, you can be in a neighborhood that doesn't have a zillion other restaurants around you because if I'm gonna go to lunch or if I'm gonna go to dinner, I'm only gonna go to one place for lunch or dinner. One. One place, and then I'm probably gonna go either to another part of town or do something else.
+
+[8:59] It's nice to have bars and other stuff around, but I'm I'm giving you a big chunk of my time if I'm going to a restaurant. A bar, on the other hand, right? Either you want to be near a bunch of restaurants, so people will go to you right before they go to dinner or right after they go to dinner as a second thing to do, or you want to be where there's a bunch of other bars around because a huge chunk of your population is going from one bar, having a couple of drinks, and then going to another bar and having a couple of drinks. They don't want to spend all night with you. And so and also, if there's another bar near you and they're full, you can send them back and forth to a different bar.
+
+[9:34] So bars, especially cocktail bars, they all want to be together. The uh the exception is like local hellhole bars. Like my favorite uh hellhole bar is uh the Holland Bar. I haven't been in years, but I was a regular at that bar, it's up near Port Authority, which is the nastiest, was the nastiest kind of place I'd ever lived. And I've lived in nasty places, but you know what I mean, like physically nasty place.
+
+[9:54] But I love that bar. In that bar, you show up at like 5 30, you start, you go out, you get a slice of pizza, and you come back and you close them down. That's the kind of bar it is, but that's not the kind of bar we're opening, right? And so they don't care, right, that that they don't care in these community boards that you know you're not uh you're not like doing a club based thing where a bunch of like, you know, underage kids are gonna come and party all night long. They don't take it into account, they just don't give you the freaking license.
+
+[10:22] Uh so like uh one of my partners was at the meeting yesterday and they wanted to grant somebody, get this, a restaurant, beer and wine license. This is in the East Village in New York, beer and wine license only, with never near never the possibility of liquor. Right. Now you can get along with a beer and wine license at a restaurant. At a restaurant, you can get along with it, especially because there's so many bars in the area.
+
+[10:41] Guess what? 10 p.m. max on the service. 10 p.m. max on the service.
+
+[10:46] What is this? Are we or like what is this? San Jose? Listen, you need to serve stuff in that neighborhood. People are out in that neighborhood.
+
+[10:53] Doesn't even get cranking until then. Ridiculous. So anti-freaking business. Just really ticks me the heck off. Speaking of business, do you want to maybe like read that piece of paper I gave you?
+
+[11:03] Yeah, yeah. Hey, family show stars. I didn't say anything. I I heard you. I heard you start to drop an S bomb.
+
+[11:09] I heard you. Yeah. Don't get sidetracked. I want you people to know something. Today's program is brought to you by, and I've not got to say this in a long time.
+
+[11:18] I'm pleased to say this because I used to, back in the day, for those of you that listen to the uh you know years ago, Modernist Pantry was one of our uh main spot sponsors, and so I always got to say, modernist pantry.com. And and by the way, they are again. So today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com. Uh by the way, they're also the people who we uh part with you right with that, Dave?
+
+[11:47] You that's the monster trucks version. That's good. We'll come back to the longer one later. Yeah, but you like the monster trucks version? Yeah, it's great.
+
+[11:54] Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Yeah, oh my god. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Amazing. Yonkers Raceway.
+
+[11:59] So listen, um. So that's that. Um, enough of the anger with with the thing, but isn't that tick you off like that's crazy. Right? Yeah.
+
+[12:08] You know, I know people I know people, right, who have gone in and for whatever reason, they've gotten investors, they put all of their own freaking money, plus all of their own freaking time into trying to try people like like the on the community board, they think that like restaurant tours somehow these fat cats. No, it's like, especially here in New York, it's like a lot of like cooks who want to do finally their own restaurant. They scrape together everything they have, they call in all their favors, they get an investor who basically at this point now owns them, right? Because they put this chunk of money in. They put all of their time and effort to try and open a place, and they think they can get it done with a beer and wine only license, and then their restaurant freaking fails.
+
+[12:48] Because now maybe it is that the restaurant wasn't meant to succeed anyway, but restaurants are so hard anyway that any sort of crap you stack on top of it makes it that much harder. It's it's oh by the way, that scraping you're hearing in the background is like bodies being scraped around on the floor of Roberta's outside. I am not providing these sound effects. Those are real actual sound effects of like garbage and like you know, Detritus being lugged around the outside of uh Roberta. The only yeah, it's like you know, we're gonna come in here after after the show with uh Luminol to see what's kind of uh what's going on.
+
+[13:21] There's an app for that, right? It's gotta be a fake app. That was a joke. No, but I'm sure people have done it. People have done fake uh infrared uh camera app.
+
+[13:29] By the way, in the new book, I'm using an infrared camera to try and figure stuff out. I'm doing a lot of fun stuff for the new book. We'll talk about that later if we have time. By the way, if you have a cooking question or a rant-related question to how hard it is to start a restaurant and liquor licenses and community boards, calling your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[13:50] Which, that we didn't get that space? No. The liquor license, non- I don't know how it used to be uh like years ago, it would you it was easier like when we f when we first did Booker and Dax, obviously I'm I was using Sambar's liquor license, but I know we looked into it prior to that, and it wasn't that onerous at that point. Um you know, the the community boards have really tightened down a lot, and a lot depends on every bl every block or area blocks has a block association, and if that block association is a really squeaky, squeaky wheel, they'll um they'll they'll you know they'll hose it. Another tactic people will use on extant places with liquor licenses, if they have a very uh strong community board, is they'll just phone in complaint after complaint after complaint after complaint.
+
+[14:32] Uh and they try to do that at Som actually for a while. They phone in complaint after complaint, and then they go in front of the SLA, which is the liquor board, and and they'll and they'll uh try to get your liquor license revoked. In fact, one place we looked at was a place that it had its liquor license revoked. Now bear in mind, so like places in this neighborhood, because they're talking about the East Village again, it's basically perfect for like bars, especially like restaurant bars, but that's the kind of clientele that goes down there, that's what the businesses are. These places vacant for like three, four years.
+
+[15:01] They can't you know, because no one else wants to, there's no way to rent it. What are you gonna do? What do you you know, what are you gonna do? Open another juice shop? Yeah.
+
+[15:08] I don't know. Juice shop. What are your thoughts on juice shops? Nah, too many. Too many juice saturated.
+
+[15:13] I don't want to grant any no juice shop licenses. Too saturated. Juice shop. I like juice shop. I mean they're fine.
+
+[15:20] I've like I think people should be able to open the businesses they want to open. That's all. Is that so bad? Nope. Never thought I'd be like the hyper pro business guy.
+
+[15:30] I know. But you know, or the hyper anti-regulation guy. I'm all for people keeping their neighborhood nice. I'm not trying to say that these people don't have a right to try to like look out for their neighborhood. I'm just saying they are blunt force instruments mentally.
+
+[15:46] They don't they're not thinking. Well, it's it's like if my sister was moving here and said, What neighborhood should I move into? What do you think of the East Village? I'd say, There's a lot of bars. You know?
+
+[15:56] Which is what it is. Right, which is what it is. So what are they gonna do? It's like it's like closing the freaking barn door after the horses have already freaking left. Oh, groomy, smashing.
+
+[16:05] Yay, capitalism. Is that Dave? Do you know like uh did you see you see Nancy Pelosi's town hall? No. Do you know a huge chunk of uh the millennial people, which I haven't you know have my issue?
+
+[16:18] I love you millennials, not really. But they like the point is is that like a huge chunk of them in quotes don't believe in capitalism. What does that even mean? I don't know. Do they tweet that to each other on their iPhones?
+
+[16:28] Like, what the hell? Like, if you don't believe in capitalism, Nastasia. Now I know I'm an old fogey here, but shouldn't you like renounce it? Yeah. Like, how do you not believe in capitalism over your Twitter account?
+
+[16:41] How does that work? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's more bodies. All right. That was a juicy one.
+
+[16:48] Yeah, it's like literally crazy here. Okay, uh question in. I have a question on thermodynamics. And this is from uh Simon Stillwell in Charleston, South Carolina. You know, I have still not been to Charleston.
+
+[17:02] How crazy is that? You've been to Charleston, right, Syas? No, I have not. No? Well, I guess so we we should have some sort of reason to go down.
+
+[17:08] Maybe festival. Oh, right. Oh, yeah? Yeah, stoked. Yeah?
+
+[17:12] Nice. I've never been before. Nice. Well, I've never been. Nastasi and I are in the food and wine business.
+
+[17:17] You want to come? Uh you know, I'm sure I can I'm sure I can it's soon. Maybe your friends at Modernist Pantry can get you a ticket. Uh why are they going? I don't know.
+
+[17:25] No, I don't know. Now, you know they'll sponsor your like Nastasi and I, first of all, are so freaking cheap. We're so cheap that like it literally, unless someone like hauls our behinds to places, we never go. Right? I mean, at least I am.
+
+[17:39] You're the same way, actually. Right? You're pretty cheap. I'm cheap. If I had money, I'd spend it.
+
+[17:45] Okay. I have a question on thermodynamics, but first some background info. Uh we're working with a pretty standard chocolate souffle recipe. Uh by the way, if anyone's on the chat group now, that they might be helpful on this. Butter and sugar prep on the Ramekins, stored in a fridge until fired.
+
+[18:00] Uh and when I go into an averagely crappy tabletop convection oven. I like averagely crappy. That's that's my new life's motto. That's your new band name. Well, it's more like a life, more like a life strategy.
+
+[18:11] Averagely crappy. Uh it's like the cause, you know why it's so awesome? Because the assumption is that everything is crap, right? So you start from a baseline of crap. So it's not like av average goodness, it's average crappiness.
+
+[18:27] It's uh it's like uh it's like I told you my favorite thing about the German language can be encapsulated in a in a side-by-side translation I saw once, where the English said works great, and the German said does not cause problems. And so it's like it's like that kind of a glass half full, half empty. Well, yeah, it's like yeah, it's like it's it's not even half full, half empty. It's like it's you always measure in degrees of emptiness. You see what I'm saying?
+
+[18:52] Like that, like that that's the thing. There is no there's no word for full. It's like, you know, how how empty is it? Uh which is a good way to look at it. Yes, I think.
+
+[19:01] You know what I mean? Just you know, which is weird, because we're actually actually we're actually optimistic people somewhat. Yeah. Somewhat. Okay.
+
+[19:09] Uh my high pop. What? I was gonna say leave the nihilism to the your millennial friends. Fake nihilism, yeah, like like fake hope, fake. I don't know, don't get me started on millennials, man.
+
+[19:18] Someone someone needs to come on the show. You know what we need? We need a millennial to come on the show and explain this crap to us. What about Nastasia's sister? Anyway.
+
+[19:31] All right. My hypothesis is that the thermal mass of the ramekin is so high compared to the battery and is such a poor conductor of heat that the majority of the time is spent bringing the ramekin from the fridge temperature up to the cooking temperature. Instead, if you were to put the batter into a silicon mold, same size shape as the ramekins, and freeze it into a puck, uh, then uh simply to fire it, simply put the puck in a room temp ramekin, uh, that it would reduce the cooking time. Does this hold water or is there a better way? Uh someone said that it would just turn into a molten cake, uh, that this is a crazy idea that it wouldn't rise, etc.
+
+[20:04] Thank you, Simon Stilwell from Charleston, South Carolina. Well, I am I think the room temperature ramekin probably would uh work fine, but uh if you're talking about like a fridge temperature ramekin, right, so you're talking about um let's call it four degrees Celsius, right? So you're looking at the rise from four degrees Celsius up to a room temperature ramekin of like 23 degrees Celsius. Now I don't know how long that's gonna take. We should run you can run some thermal modeling on that.
+
+[20:35] Um but it needs to it's gonna rise over the bake time up to like a hundred, roughly a hundred degrees Celsius. And a little bit, a little bit over, possibly, if you get some dehydration of the souffle around the edges and it's browning, which it is. So if the souffle edges are browning at all, then it's getting above a hundred, but let's just call it a hundred, which is the boiling point of water Celsius. So what you're saying is is that you're worried about that first 20 degree or 22 degree rise in, or not even probably 20 degree rise in in temperature when you're looking from fridge temperature at an overall 94 degree uh temperature rise. So I would say that in the baking time that it takes your uh souffle to go through, uh I don't know how much of a jump you're going to get on um on the cooking by having the ramekin being um room temperature.
+
+[21:36] Maybe some, I don't know. Um but it's it's an interesting question. I mean it's something that like you know you could it you could probably study with uh a thermocouple, you know, just take a you know if I wasn't working so hard on like uh reading thousands of pages of incredibly boring meat science books and texts, you people would not believe how boring and contradictory meat science documents and books are. Like not just boring, contradictory. Uh but the uh, yeah, so if I had the time, you could like strap some thermocouples to the inside of the ramekin uh and actually measure in the two cases kind of what's happening.
+
+[22:15] Now on the other side, would a frozen uh souffle work? I don't know that a standard souffle recipe would work as a frozen situation because I've never tried it. But I know there are people, um, the cuisine solutions guys, uh, for instance, uh developed uh tubular souffles. I think Paula Perlis maybe also developed some tubular souffles. So what they do is they literally, now they're hydrocaloid-based, but what they do is is they're freezing um they're freezing souffle, not in in uh in silicone molds, but actually in long logs and cylinders, freezing them solid and then slicing them into pucks and dropping them into ramekins and cooking them off, and they're working fine, working great.
+
+[22:59] Now, I again I uh you know what what needs to happen there is everything needs to first melt and and then uh rise before the outside sets too much. But so I know that it can work. I don't know that it would work with a classic souffle um recipe, but I do know that it can work to have a frozen souffle. But uh, you know, I'll try to look into it more over the next week or so. I I don't know if I'm gonna have time or if I'll remember.
+
+[23:26] I need to remember this kind of stuff with several days in advance to do some uh work and to call the people that I know that have worked on these systems. So it is possible, but I don't know how much you're going to for them. The win was they got to basically have these incredibly dense stored logs of souffle that they could ship across the country, sh uh chop them into discs, and any monkey could then have a good souffle at their at their you know point of service um you know at their restaurant. Uh and so that was a huge win for them. Um but I don't know, I don't my answer is I the answer is I don't know.
+
+[24:02] Uh so sorry, not very good, not a very good help today, right? No. Not a good help. Anyone on the anyone in the uh chat group alive and well uh on uh on uh souffle ramekins? No, they got nothing to say about this.
+
+[24:13] No? Do you like souffles, Dave? Uh I don't really have a strong opinion, Dave. You why? I guess I haven't had that many souffles.
+
+[24:22] So when I was a kid, the souffle was pretty popular in the 70s and 80s. So when you went to a high class, you went to a high class French restaurant, they would show up and they would ask you at the beginning of the freaking meal. Now, this is the baller part of it. This is the ball or service part of it. Will the sir be having the souffle?
+
+[24:40] Because like you're at the beginning of the meal? They ask you at the beginning of the meal. The implication being that they have to work up to it. You know what I mean? That like they're gonna do this preparation, they're gonna get their freaking mishigash in order, they're gonna do everything.
+
+[24:53] You know what I mean? They're gonna like massage it, they need X number of minutes to cook it, right? So they need like 15, something, 20 minutes to cook it, whatever. Uh, and then this is before people had figured out how to like par cook and then finish cook their soup, all this like stuff that people can do. So the um so yeah, so like in the and they would ask you, and then invariably, this is the way people to upsell your desserts.
+
+[25:15] Invariably be like, hmm, do I want this man? If they're gonna work that hard, man, yeah, I want the souffle. So I would get the souffle, and then they would bring it, remember they would bring it to the table, and they would stick the two spoons into it, bust that sucker open, and then pour the sauce in, which is a ball, it's baller. I mean, like getting a nice, awesome souffle that is like really good where it's like still creamy but not goopy on the inside, and like has that nice fluffy thing, it's risen high, and you can see the steam when they bust that sucker open. That is a baller dining moment.
+
+[25:49] But I feel it's fallen by the wayside, it doesn't really fit into the structure of most um you know, kind of hit restaurants, you know. I don't know whether it's too state or or whatever, but I have I haven't been asked that in years. I haven't been asked that. You ever see have you seen that recently, Sunday? Oh, yeah.
+
+[26:08] Well, that's old school French. Did you get it? Nah. I think so. Oh, you did?
+
+[26:12] Was it good? Yeah. What salt was it? Chocolate souffle with the fashion fruit souffle. Yeah, that goal.
+
+[26:18] Yeah. Gotta be chocolate. Uh well, no, I mean, look, orange flavors, chocolate flavors, uh, you know, with a contrasting sauce depending on which way you're going. These are all good, but like passion fruit, I love passion fruit. But first of all, one of the things I don't like, and I've said this a million times about uh the way we in America, we think of passion fruit as being a thing, and like the the basically all of the Passiflora species ha all have radically, radically different flavors.
+
+[26:51] They all share that like weird acidity, but in terms of like muskiness and like you know how sometimes passion fruit can have that weird musky overriding note? I don't want that in my souffle. I want that for different stuff, but I don't want that in my souffle, and neither do I want it in my cocktail people. Even though I like those fruits. I like eating those fruits.
+
+[27:07] Learned a new way to open a pomegranate the other day. So, you know what? Uh I I went into a YouTube hole and uh where I was researching uh things and went to a YouTube hole, and then I realized that like, you know, the old technique I had gotten for pomegranates is basically you slice that sucker in half and then you beat on the you break it a little bit and then you beat it with the back of a spoon and you get the stuff out of it. But I saw these guys, like these pomegranate ninjas, and they take it. Did you see that terrible second uh uh Hannibal Lecter movie where Ray Leota gets his head chopped off?
+
+[27:40] No. Where they where uh what's his name? The Hannibal, what's the famous actor? What's it Anthony Hopkins? He cuts the top of Ray Leota's head off and then removes it and then serves Ray Leota his own brain.
+
+[27:51] Remember, you didn't see this? Dave, you see this? Uh no. Terrible movie. Uh, as much as I like both Ray Leota and Anthony Hopkins, terrible movie, and a gross scene, like overridingly gross for no reason.
+
+[28:02] Anyway, you do that to a pomegranate. So you take the pomegranate and it's got the little the little tufty thing on top. You put the knife to it and you cut around and you lift the top off, like you were lifting the top of Rayleota's skull. And you have like those things there, and then here's the cool part, Stas. Here's the part that you're gonna like.
+
+[28:18] Then you can see you know how there's those uh septa of uh those membrane septa that go around? You can see them, right? Like the five, typically, I think five going down. And then you take your pairing knife and you pair along where those septa are down, almost like the lines in a basketball, just along, not too deep, just the skin. And then you can go and you break all of the sections apart, and the all of them are just there.
+
+[28:41] They're just there. And I saw this guy do it, not one drop of juice on his table. Not one drop of juice. And I was like, sir, thank you. I went into another, I was looking up uh Japanese uh uh shrimp shrimp techniques and then devaining techniques, and I've learned that my entire life my deveining technique has been garbage.
+
+[29:06] Garbage. Well, yeah, so Nastasia is making the cut down the back move, right, to devein to devein the shrimp. Now, my peeling game is okay because it's basically just a brute force technique. I don't think there's any sort of like there's no sort of like God's way to uh take the shell off of the shrimp. Although, if you take it, I mean the old trick of taking a pairing knife, holding it upside down and zip unzipping the shrimp from the back, also scores the back, so you can get to the vein fairly easily and rip the shell off.
+
+[29:33] But then you have that line down the back of the shrimp, which I don't really think looks that good. I think it's fine. Yeah, see, but you but you don't really care. Say if you're gonna go to a if you're gonna spend a like eight boat tons of money on like a giant shrimp, don't you want it to look nice or do you want to have a raggedy back? You don't like when it butterflies out?
+
+[29:49] Not particularly. I mean, like, I guess I can live with it if it looks like it's on purpose. Anyway, so this guy, he's like, here's what you do. And I can't believe I didn't know this. No one on top of me is hey, crap on all of my teachers, and every cook I've ever looked at for not doing this.
+
+[30:01] The guy just takes a skewer, right? He bends the shrimp close to the tail, bends the shrimp, shoves a skewer, like basically, if the shrimp had a backbone, like right underneath its backbone, right? And then just lifts the skewer up and the vein comes right out with the skewer, boom, and the shrimp. You still have uh you still cut through. No, no, no, no.
+
+[30:22] Just one tiny skewer mark at one location in the shrimp. And you're basically like, it's like uh how to explain this. It's like, imagine if you were to bend me over and shove a skewer under my spine. Family show. Right.
+
+[30:37] What? Shove a skewer onto my spine, as uh as Arnold would say, which is what he said. Whose spine do you say is gonna rip out what movie was that? I don't know. It's probably like total recall.
+
+[30:45] Uh no, running man, I think. Anyway. I think you said that about Trump, too. So you shove the uh you shove the oh my god, so uh Dax accidentally said these words, Donald Schwarzenegger. So now I have a that mashup in my head now.
+
+[30:57] Anyway, so you shove the skewer under my spine, and then you lift it out. So my body stays there, but imagine the spine just like brr comes out. On the skewer on the skewer, you can't. And all you have is that tiny hole that my spine has come out. Why does it latch onto the skewer?
+
+[31:14] Because where else is it gonna do? It's stronger than the tissue. And so it just comes out. Because when you do the cut down the back method on the shrimp, like invariably you cut the vein, so you get part of the vein out, but then you even if the vein a lot of shrimp come clean now, so there's not a lot in the vein, but the vein is there anyway, and it's kind of unpleasant. I got shrimp at a place in Brooklyn, like uh like a barbecue place on the water, and it had all the veins in it, all the scoop shoots.
+
+[31:41] And I went back and I was like, Do you can you get you know, this is kind of gross. And the guy was like, Yeah, we're not that kind of place that takes them out. And I was like, But are you that kind of place that charges me money? Right. Here's the thing.
+
+[31:53] Like, they should just invest the extra money then in the pre-cleaned Ike IQ uh, you know, individually quick frozen IQF stuff. Anyway, so should we should we take a break and come back with some more cooking issues? Yeah, let's do that. All right. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps.
+
+[32:21] If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[32:54] Browse Chef Step's amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Alright, and we are back.
+
+[33:21] So uh time to do a little more business, right? Right, Dave? You got it. We're gonna do some business, some honoress pantry business. Wait, we're doing more?
+
+[33:29] Grease those palms. Yeah, man. Well, first of all, we like the modernist pantry people. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[33:29] But I'm gonna read this one in normal voice. I'm not gonna do uh because I haven't actually read it in advance, so I don't know whether if I can maintain full Sunday, Sunday, Sunday monster truck voice for the entire thing. I mean, I pr I know I can do it, but like I have I mean, like, don't challenge me people, but I know I can. But uh I just don't know whether I whether it merits like that style of voice or whether it wants a more mellow voice because I have no idea what I'm about to read. Yep.
+
+[33:57] Not that I not that I don't support entirely what I'm about to read. Sure. Just I have no idea what it is. Okay. Um Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you.
+
+[34:08] Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[34:46] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. Hey, Dave, can you believe I read that whole damn thing, No Flubs? That was amazing. What up? I should do that for a living, man.
+
+[34:58] Come on, people. I heard the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday creep in there just a little bit. I can't help it. It's like, you know, when you grow up and you hear that commercial over and over again. It's a part of you.
+
+[35:09] It's a part of me. Do you know that I was never taken as a child? I'm gonna give my poor little, you know, I was never taken to a monster truck rally as a child. I had to wait until I went to college to go to a monster truck rally. Oh no.
+
+[35:19] I wanted to mention that Modernist Pantry now carries our screens for internationals, especially Canadians. And uh our uh callers. Adapters. Is that your new impolite term for people? Internationals.
+
+[35:35] You internationals. And our Sears all adapters for when you over tighten. And the cocktail cube they have now. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[35:42] So almost a full service dealer. Yeah. By the way, spins all people. We're still uh waiting to get back in touch with China's still not back online, people. Our factories in China are not back online until next week.
+
+[35:55] Uh at which point we will um reconvene with them. Uh at which point we will uh get back together with those guys and figure out exactly uh what the current uh estimates are on chip dates, and we'll get back to you guys. But looking looking pretty good, right? Not looking bad. No, which is the new looking good.
+
+[36:17] It's the German. Yeah, yeah. Not looking bad. Looks not bad. Um, dear Dave, Nastasia.
+
+[36:25] Oh, this is old school. Oh, still wish like Jack and Dave. So still wishing Jack love. Wishing you, Dave love, but also wishing Jackie Molecules love. And he's you know, I miss Jackie Molecules.
+
+[36:36] You know what, Dave? He said he was gonna come visit us. You know what he hasn't done? Come visit. He hasn't come visit.
+
+[36:42] He's full of lies. Like Peter Kim. He's chilling in Washington, D.C. Like Peter Peter Kim is Peter Kim, known liar. Peter Kim.
+
+[36:52] So mean. The guy who runs the Museum of Fruit and Drink. It's not a known liar. Alternative Facts. Known liar.
+
+[36:58] Uh he invented alternative facts. First of all. Crazy. Known liar. How?
+
+[37:05] How? When was the last time he told the truth about anything? I love the man. I'm just kidding. He's not an you guys don't know the lies he tells, so he's not a known liar.
+
+[37:15] Anyway, uh, I'm a huge fan of the show and regularly apply things discussed here in my cooking. Many thanks. Uh Dave, I also want to give a shout out to Liquid Intelligence, looking forward to your next book. I'm not looking forward to this writing process, I tell you what. We were at a ramen shop, and you were and in with all these ramen masters, and Peter said, I make ramen at home sometimes, and you said, You're a known liar.
+
+[37:39] He's like, well. He is so mean. Yeah, because he doesn't make ramen at home. Unless by ramen, you mean like couple of noodles or whatever. The man well come on, please.
+
+[37:53] Love Peter. So mean. Peter's a good cook. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[37:57] Um. My question is about chicken and other meats in the most people find them disgusting if undercooked categories, such as pork. My wife is of Haitian descent and has a strong food tradition around proper preparation of these meats. A key element of the preparation is an extensive process of washing the meat uh before cooking to remove an unpleasant, in quotes, make you gag flavor. Uh the washing process consists of the following steps.
+
+[38:23] Thoroughly wash all exposed surfaces of the meat under the faucet. Optionally, pour a kettle of boiling water over the chicken. Three, scrub the surface extensively with lime or vinegar and rinse under the faucet. Repeat this step for a minimum of three acid wash rich cycles. Now I have the genes in my head.
+
+[38:40] Ashid wash jeans. They're not coming back. Please tell me they're not coming back. I've seen them on people here. Really?
+
+[38:45] Yeah. I don't like acid wash jeans. No. Bad. Oh my the color of my jeans today is it's just faded.
+
+[38:51] It's not acid wash. Whatever. Do you believe in putting lemon juice in your hair? No. I thought all people in California put lemon juice in their hair.
+
+[38:58] I tried when I was little. Yeah? Did it work? Mm-mm. Uh okay.
+
+[39:05] Uh three uh wash rinse cycles. Marinate the meat in an acidic marinade. What about idiots who say marinade? Mm-hmm. Weirdos.
+
+[39:13] Poor guy. Hanging up his cape to dry. All right, no, no, no. Before I get to the question, I'm sorry. Listen.
+
+[39:19] So yesterday I'm looking up brioche recipes because I'm about to go on a brioche cake at home. It's not for the show or anything. I'm going on a brioche cake. You don't like brioche, Nastasia? It's fine.
+
+[39:27] Why are you doing this? I can't talk about it. Listen, I can't talk about it. But listen, so like, so Dax looks at the screen and goes, Brioche. And I was like, yeah, Dax.
+
+[39:38] Freaking Briachi. That's good. It's classic, right? Brioche. Wait, why can't you talk about it?
+
+[39:44] Because it's a freaking secret. Are you coming up with a new technique? Uh maybe. Maybe I'm coming up with a new technique. Are you ashamed?
+
+[39:53] I'm not, I'm not ashamed. If it works, I'm so jacked about it that I want to wait until you'll tell everyone, and then someone else will take it on the big announcement coming. I want to wait until the new bar opens, and then you will see. Brioche. Sounds like like like uh like that's something that Carlo would make.
+
+[40:13] Yeah. Carlo Briochi. Right? I think I went to school with that guy. Yeah, Carlo Briacci.
+
+[40:19] Yeah. Um, repeat this step for a minimum of three acid wash. Remember, we're talking about Haitian meat washing people. Chicken, and I guess also pork. Marinate the meat in an acidic marinade for uh for at least overnight.
+
+[40:29] Parsley is also a key element of the marinade to remove the unpleasant flavor. Other ingredients typically include green pepper, onion, garlic, thyme, bullion cube, magi, and maybe a scotch bonnet pepper. Well, that's gonna ride over the top of every freaking thing. You rub a Scotch bonnet pepper into that, and it's good night. Uh I mean, I like Scotch bonnet, but that stuff is some strong.
+
+[40:52] Uh you don't do you ever wipe one of those things into your eye by mistake? Really? I would think you would. You're the kind of person, but you don't like working with it that much. So you don't work with them that often.
+
+[41:01] I don't work. Do you work with chili peppers a lot at all? No. No? Alright.
+
+[41:05] Uh however, from what I can tell, it is the lime and parsley that is supposed to be removing the off flavor while the other ingredients are primarily for flavor addition. The whole washing process takes roughly 15 to 20 minutes to complete properly before the marinade step. My problem is I do not have any idea what's going on here. In gest I call the off flavor gamma rays because it's a total mystery to me. I can't identify it or tell if it is present.
+
+[41:29] I don't know if the wash is effective in removing it, and if so, uh, I don't know when I've washed sufficiently to have removed the last of the gamma rays. I have frequently followed the wash steps and been told that the off flavor is still there. I initially thought that it was just a placebo effect, and she was being skeptical that I actually wash the chicken because I can be admittedly stubborn, especially in the kitchen. Can't we all be, my friend? Uh however, even when she prepares the chicken herself, sometimes she tastes it and determines that the flavor is still present.
+
+[41:56] Uh now for some additional confusion. We frequently eat chicken at restaurants, Chinese, Thai, Italian, Spanish, Mexican, etc., and she will enjoy the chicken and detect no off-flavor with the assumption that they too are washing the chicken. They are not. They are definitely not. They are definitely not washing the chicken.
+
+[42:11] They may marinate the chicken, but uh I've never seen anyone in a restaurant go through this rigmarole uh with the multiple steps and the boiling and all this other stuff. Have you? No. Never. Never.
+
+[42:25] Um brining, marinating. Yes. Uh this incredible like all washing step. No. Uh I don't believe any of these restaurants are using the washing process, but don't know for sure.
+
+[42:36] I pretty much can tell you for sure they are not. Uh this leaves me in a difficult spot. The off-flavor seems to be a real thing, but I don't know what I'm looking for. And it seems to be more uh more than a preference for a specific marinade flavor since it crosses cuisines. Also, the wash process is really time consuming and sometimes ineffective, not to mention that it results in all chicken tasting Haitian styled.
+
+[42:57] Well, this is delicious, Haitian styled. Well, this is delicious. I also want to be able to make other styles. And the restaurants are somehow getting it right. Do they have special chicken?
+
+[43:05] I'm swinging in the dark here. I need some knowledge. Uh, have you ever run into anything like this? What's the deal? Thanks, Todd.
+
+[43:11] Okay, well, um, well, Todd, I don't know specifically what this uh off flavor is, but I did some research uh on the uh internet, and there is a one board I looked at where like a bunch of uh uh, you know, people, Caribbean people were like, uh, if I like would literally say things like, I saw this guy cooking his chicken and he didn't do the proper washing step like I was taught by my parents, and so I just wouldn't eat it. I wouldn't eat it at all. There's a very, very strong um kind of sanitary bias, right? So there might be a flavor bias, right? There might actually be something flavor-wise going on here, but there is definitely an extreme sanitary bias.
+
+[43:53] And if you ever want to like know that those biases are real, right, then just uh go take a look, go try to watch a YouTube video of someone butchering fish where they discovered tapeworms and other parasites on the inside of a fish, and then go try to tuck into a fish filet. It's hard because you have an extreme sanitary bias about this. So, like I'm wondering whether the times that your wife has prepared the chicken and it still had the off flavor, whether or not that chicken was maybe on the edge or not. Now, another thing I noticed by looking at uh a lot of the boards is that uh along with the washing that you uh prescribe, and by the way, the boiling water on a lot of these things are things that are meant to do several things. The acid is going to um neutralize uh uh some of the off aromas that develop on the surface of uh meats.
+
+[44:44] Um the pH may have some sort of uh um antimicrobial effect. Um it's unclear to me whether it would over such a short period of time, and you're gonna marinate it in an acidic environment anyway, so I don't know how important it is there. But there's an extreme uh dislike of sliminess, and so meats like chicken, even when they're not even when they're fresh, right, can have kind of a sliminess to them, and there seems to be a very intense dislike for that sliminess. And also, by the way, if you look at fat, so a lot of the people like are very careful in getting rid of any fat on the ex on the uh external part of uh chicken thighs and the what's returned uh termed as the kind of heel end or the fatty looking end of the drumstick. So it's possible that um some of the off-flavor is actually chicken fat flavor, perhaps uh maybe on the edge or edge or rancid or over overdone or you know, uh over chick or you know, kind of gone chicken fat flavor, or a dislike of that chicken fat flavor in its entirety because there was a huge uh amount of like uh verbiage spent on the websites about getting rid of fat.
+
+[45:51] Um the other thing is that the acidity uh will definitely help wash off the kind of natural any kind of natural slimy. Now the chickens, like I say, have a natural kind of um feeling to them, but also as bacteria multiply over time, uh they create their own kind of mucus and slime, which is disgusting and terrible. So um, and especially if chickens have been packaged in a bunch of goop. So a lot of chickens are uh I buy I tend to buy air-cooled chickens. Um they tend to not be as goopy slimy, but if you get the normal ones that are chilled in big ice buckets and pack together, they're giving up uh fluid over time that's being leached out of the meat.
+
+[46:32] That fluid has uh proteins in it, uh, so they have a viscosity that's kind of gross and they look gross. And plus in confinement, there is bacteria, even not spoilage bacteria, but bacteria that can grow, it can make kind of off aromas, things are called, even in vacuum packs are called in quotes, it's a gross term, confinement aroma that tends to kind of go away. And so scrubbing that with um with lime uh would probably help alleviate some of the aromas that are present, uh, you know, neutrali you know, neutralize them. And then B might have some bacteriostatic and also like just help to like w wash the thing off. The boiling water over it uh is not going to probably overcook it because it's there for a short amount of time, but it will kill the surface uh bacteria, and in fact has been in many cultures, including ancient uh Roman, was uh a standard cook step in something like a bird um to um as as an initial as an initial cook before finished roast or whatever else.
+
+[47:31] Um so yeah, so there might be an effect there. Now I am currently reevaluating my um my knowledge and ideas of uh what happens to meat during marination and during salting. So uh I can't really say what the specific effects are over short periods of time. I doubt the effects are very great over short periods of time. But I am like I say, reassessing um I'm reassessing my my views uh on the subject.
+
+[48:00] So a lot of people don't like, and I might have talked about this, a lot of people think that marination is useless because it doesn't penetrate very far into the meat. But in fact, a lot of the aromas that are there in cooking, which are very important um to how whether you enjoy the meat, are really only present at the surface, and the composition of a marinade, specifically its pH level, but also other precursors that are in the marinade, can very much affect the volatiles that you get when you're cooking them at higher temperatures. So marinade, even if they are only at the surface, can do a lot of uh can change uh a lot. And I'm currently trying to reassess my own view on this. This is what I said this kind of uh you know, maybe a month or two ago, that I think the only way to really get better is to kind of reassess all of your core ideas from the beginning.
+
+[48:47] Another thing that I'm reassessing is uh is trying to figure out how actually tenderization works. So you know, um, because when you think about uh when you think about meat, uh you know it's always you know said, oh, collagen, it's collagen that causes meat uh to be tough and it's rendering collagen during long cooking into gelatin that causes it to be um you know tender again. But I've just recently started to investigate kind of all of the effects of what what tenderizing really means. Turns out, uh I mean what time is it, Dave? Anyway, one o'clock.
+
+[49:22] Oh, so I can't get into it now. But but you know, maybe if someone asks me about it, we can get into uh, you know, intramuscular connective tissue and um specifically the paramecium, which is a uh um it's not called paramecium, it just went out of my head. The the muscle fibers are grouped into bundles, and it's the collagen that surrounds those bundles that tend to buy most of the research. That's what determines the texture of the meat. And so then the question is is that can that part be specifically uh changed or the eating properties of it be changed via marinade via salt treatment?
+
+[50:00] And and and I'll leave you with this on the way out. So uh is the fact that I have very specific ideas about when to salt meat and when not to salt meat based on the texture of it. Is it radically dependent on the amount of connective tissue and the type of connective tissue present in the meat beforehand? Answer maybe. If you want to know more, ask me questions, cooking issues.
+
+[50:34] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio.
+
+[50:55] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[51:19] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brook Brook, Brooklyn. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modnesspantry.com and call all of your cooking related questions in to 718497-2128.
+
+[1:08] That's 718497-2128. Joined as usual in the studio by Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah, doing good.
+
+[1:17] And we got uh we got my man Dave in the booth. What's going on? Also good. That was a stirring read of that ad. I love that.
+
+[1:22] Yeah, well, you know, if you're gonna do if you're gonna if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it as part of the, you know, it's it takes me at least uh 500 milliseconds to gear in to that voice. You know what I mean? Stas you ever see me like uh when we when I come in, I'm hacking, like like hacking up blood, getting off the bike, and like so the hits we do it. That's what it's all about, people. It's not about it's about making yourself feel what you need to feel.
+
+[1:47] Yeah, I mean, that was like Henry V for me out here. Yeah. Oh, Shackus Bar. Okay. So, uh, what do you have?
+
+[1:57] Anything good? Happy Valentine's Day, people. Oh, yeah. Uh, does anyone have anyone out there in uh in uh Heritage Radio Land have any last-minute Valentine's Day issues they need to address? Call them in to 7184972128.
+
+[2:13] Well, I mean, I wouldn't take I wouldn't take relationship advice from either of us. I don't know, maybe Dave could give we have a whole show based on relationship advice. What's that show, Dave? Issues. No, no, no.
+
+[2:24] What? Yeah, love bites, yeah. Listen, in the in the in the lead up to this, uh, where you know you you guys are pimping out uh Heritage Radio, it's like if you want to get behind the scenes in the restaurant world, people, you don't want to go behind the scenes in the restaurant world. That's the last place on earth you want to be. Do you think, does anybody think for a second, right?
+
+[2:44] I mean, like, everyone likes those shows where like, you know, people go behind the scenes and yell at people and all kinds of things are going wrong. But if like you felt like you were behind the scenes in the restaurant world, how many people do you think would actually try to get into the business and stuff? Zero. Uh yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:02] Behind the scenes and your paycheck is like nothing. That's behind behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, the behind the scenes everyone wants to get into is like is like uh, yeah, it's like, oh, oh, uh we're cooking good food, we're we're yelling at each other, we have camaraderie.
+
+[3:17] Do you know what I mean? The world. Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah, right. You're changing at least the the uh your diners next 15 minutes.
+
+[3:23] But like they but they yeah, like what they don't see is like I didn't get the good shift because the manager is a jack, what? You know what I mean? Or like, you know, the manager is sleeping with that other person and they got the good shift and I didn't, and look at my paycheck. Um. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:40] That's the side of the restaurant. That's the behind the scenes. That's the behind the behind the scenes. That's like what's really going on behind the scenes. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:49] Oh. Hey, it's good, man. It's all good. Or like uh, you know what? Like uh the hardest thing, and like uh I've never had to deal with it, so I mean that's not true.
+
+[3:58] I mean a long, long time ago, but like, you know, the idea just not knowing how much you're gonna make. That's the weird thing. Not for cooks, but like for front of house people. Just have no idea what you're gonna you know kind of what you're gonna make after you average it out, but like not a busy, not a busy night. You're cut, go home.
+
+[4:14] You know what I mean? Isn't it weird business? Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got a call about crab legs. Ooh, crab legs, you're on the air.
+
+[4:21] Hey Dave, it's uh Brandon Bird calling in. I got it. Um doing well, doing well. Hope you are. Um I got a uh nice couple of clusters of king crab legs.
+
+[4:33] Uh obviously pre cooked, you know, frozen at sea. Uh and I was wondering if you had a preferred method of reheating those beyond the usual uh steaming, or if that's the tried and crude method for a reason. Um, well, okay, first of all, like like uh so what kind of prep what kind of prep are you doing? Most of the time when I get those things, I do I do cold prep with them, except for like when I'm actually cooking them. But last time I cooked, because we used to do a thing where we would buy whole king crab live, which is intensely awesome.
+
+[5:04] It's so good. You should do it someday. It's expensive. But uh, but we steamed the we steamed it and then we we chilled it. We sold it still uh uh served it chilled.
+
+[5:14] I would say, look, they're already cooked at a very high temperature, right? Because that because that's how they do it. Uh and in fact, I happen to, after you know, many years of playing with it, enjoy shellfish if it's gonna be cooked. I don't want it overcooked, but I want it cooked at a fairly high temperature. So I would say steaming is good because it's relatively rapid.
+
+[5:37] I don't think you're going to do anything to the meat that hasn't already been done to the meat, and you're not going to leach anything in or out because it's relatively fast and you have relatively small contact between the cooking medium and the um the environment. I mean between the cooking medium and the thing you're cooking. So, you know, plus like those long skinny things in a pile, steam gets between them really nicely. I mean, you wouldn't want to go boil them. That would be insane.
+
+[6:03] You'd be an insane person if you did that. To throw all that money into a pot and leach all the flavor out of it, you'd be crazy. That'd be a crazy person's thing to do. You know what I mean? Um what are you gonna do with it?
+
+[6:14] Um well, I'm gonna bust out kitchen cheers and kind of uh pre-slice open the shells just to make them less finicky at the table. Right. Um and then just you know, steam them and do them with drawn butter. Yeah, okay. What kind of what kind of equipment do you have available to you?
+
+[6:32] Uh I've got a circulator, uh pressure cooker, uh steam basket. Uh I don't know. What are do you have have special thoughts? Uh well saying like, you know, if you own something like a C Vat. See, here's the thing, right?
+
+[6:46] So when you're cooking when you're cooking uh shellfish, you want the cook time to be relatively low, right? That's uh why you know steaming is good. Like long cooking times are not beneficial for shellfish. Um there's a number of reasons for this. Some of them I think are enzymatic.
+
+[7:01] So for instance, we used to do this demo where we would cook shrimp at a very, very low temperature for a long time and it would turn to mush, right? Like paste. Disgusting. Uh now, some of that's probably enzymatic, but some of it might also be that the stuff just gets mushy as it's cooked down because of the way the connective tissue is breaking down over time, just getting getting mushy, right? So like it could be that you what you want, I mean, that could be, it's my feeling that what you want is relatively fast cooking times on it.
+
+[7:35] That said, I think I've heard other people say that once it's cooked to a high temperature, that they can do a hot hold on it for a relatively long period of time at relatively low temperatures without having degradation. So, like what I would test, like what you could do if you had like a long, long, long time, right, is throw them in a in a in a bag, no extra water, you know what I mean, and then um just throw them into a circulator bath uh at you know at like at like you know 60, which is 140, or or somewhere around there, and just give it enough time to heat. I have no idea how long it would take to heat up because you have the air gap you gotta heat up, and then you gotta heat um that's heating through the shell's not a big problem, but then you gotta heat the meat. But what I don't know is if hot holding the meat would um if it would degrade it, right, over the amount of time it would take for you to heat it up, versus steaming it, you're gonna steam it for what, like five minutes. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:31] Something like this? Who knows? Yeah. So like I think that steaming's probably gonna do less damage. If you had access to, let's say, a combi oven, right?
+
+[8:38] Then I would throw it in and I would do a hundred percent humidity at some kind of middle range temperature to to see see kind of what's going on, and I would keep it probably under I'll try to keep everything under about 10-15 minutes, which is what I normally shoot for when I'm cooking uh like a like a lobster. When I'm cooking a lobster, for instance, I want to keep my cook times under about 15 minutes for texture reasons, no matter what temperature I'm cooking to. But again, I don't know whether that is only important during primary cook time or whether it's important during primary or secondary. Another thing is like when you listen to people talking about hot holding shellfish, most of the time people are hot holding shellfish. They're not hot holding uh at least that's I I shouldn't say this.
+
+[9:21] When people have asked me about it, they're not hot holding uh whole pieces of shellfish for people like tails uh or uh legs for a king crab. And so I think your ability to hot hold something in a sauce is a lot different because your textural expectations are very different for something that's in a sauce versus something that is uh like a whole muscle or a leg or something like that. Makes sense? Yeah that makes sense. I have had uh some luck before in the past where I took the meat out, put it in a bag with some butter and just let it come up to temperature in like 10 minutes.
+
+[9:55] Yeah that's fine. Yeah. But you want to serve it in the shell, right? A bit fussy with a whole bunch of legs to go through all that work. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
+
+[10:02] Well on the other hand, is this like the first course in a Valentine's Day meal? Uh no we're uh just gonna be surf and turf um with uh some sous-deed tenderloin not my favorite uh cut but it's my wife's favorite so you know it's all about it's all you know it's all about it's all about who you're cooking for, not who you know not yourself. Uh but the um here's what here's another thing I would say like part of the problem with king crab legs, right, or anything like this is that uh a lot of the um a lot of the kind of presentation style awesome is the big old leg. And some people really enjoy rip it me, for instance, uh really enjoy uh ripping the meat out of the shell, right? So, like you know, like if someone were to take the meat out of a lobster for anything other than a lobster roll, I would be kind of pissed because I enjoy shredding those things up into tiny pieces and having shell bits stick on my uh, you know, the person next to me's face.
+
+[11:04] Like, Stas, you've eaten lobster with me before, haven't you? No. But you wouldn't want to. You're not not want to. Like little I once hit her with a piece of uh inside of a what was it, what kind of like a it was like a grouse or a woodcock, yeah, and you got hit in the face with a piece of like stinky, like aged inside.
+
+[11:20] Yeah. And you were like, hmm, yeah, yeah, terrible. But what do you like eating out of the shell or not out of the shell, Stas? Not out of the shell. Anyway, so my point being that um, I don't know about your wife, but some people would love if someone took the meat out of the shell for them.
+
+[11:36] But here's the other problem. When you're spending all the money on the king crab leg, if it's out of the shell, it's like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, gone. You know what I mean? It's gone. All that money gone down the throat, especially if I'm eating it.
+
+[11:46] And I don't know, maybe your wife savors things and it doesn't matter. But uh, you know, for me, like it's it's always a uh a play between this and that. But if it's if it is part of a larger course, you also have to think about the time it takes someone to extract the meat, they could be doing other things like eating their steak. So if i you know you know what I'm saying? It's like so.
+
+[12:06] I remember once we uh I served a first course of crabs, like I think I forget it was Dungeon S or something like this, and everyone spent their entire time breaking open the the all the crab parts, and then you know, nobody wanted to eat by the time uh they got to their main course. I mean, that's how you have like a whole meal of crabs, is because it takes so freaking long to get the meat out of the crab that you get full just with time. You just get you know, you just get sick of it. It's time to go to bed before you get full. I mean, have you ever been full of crab meat?
+
+[12:37] Um Yeah, once upon a time, it it did take quite a while. Yeah, like I have a follow-up question that refers to that, but go on. All right, well, I'm saying, like if you go to like a Maryland-style crab house, especially nowadays when the crabs are so tiny and all you can eat crabs, it's not all you can eat crabs, it's when do you go to bed? When are they shutting the kitchen down? I mean, like you know what I mean?
+
+[12:57] Like you can't possibly do you like eating crabs and sauce? Not really. Well, this is my question. Where in New York can you get all you can eat crabs? Because I'm at a loss, I can't find it.
+
+[13:06] Um there used to be a place wasn't all you can eat Hey, look, all you can eat also depends on how much you know your credit card can withstand. Because you can just hand them your credit card and be like, keep bringing it until I'm done. No, no, no, not like that. I mean like you pay a flat whatever 30, 40 bucks, and you get all the crabs that you get. There used to be a place.
+
+[13:21] I I uh I don't go out anymore that but there used to be a place over in um in like Brooklyn on the water somewhere that did it. But I'm talking like the one in Red Hook, right? I don't know, it was like 15 years ago. Yeah, I don't know. What and it's out of bit did it get swamped by the hurricane years ago?
+
+[13:38] No, it's there still, but they don't do an all you can eat. Uh yeah, no, that wasn't the place I was thinking of, but anyway, I don't know. I don't know. If you f if anyone finds one in New York, let's all somebody call in, please. We'll go eat it, we'll eat it all.
+
+[13:48] Or what's your what's your follow-up question, Dave? That was it. Oh, yeah, I don't know. So uh so one thing you could do is just do what you did before, but then you don't have the presentation of the uh of the shell. And if you want to get really freaking fussy about it, you cut the legs all the way in half down, reserve the shell, heat the meat, and replace it pre-buttered onto the freaking leg.
+
+[14:08] That's Valentine's Day for you, baby. That's baller. That's baller. Pain in the butt pain in the butt, though. What else you got?
+
+[14:19] That's it? All right, well, have a uh have a happy Valentine's Day. Thanks, same to you. All right. Um we had a question in from uh Matt, and the first thing uh my phone has decided to go into Tiny Type.
+
+[14:34] That's be a good band name, Tiny Type. There's another caller. If you want to do that, yeah. All right, call take a call, caller you're on the air. Hey man, it's uh Matt calling from Mystic.
+
+[14:42] I'm not the m I'm not the Matt that wrote in. All right. How goes it? How's Mystic? How much snow you got?
+
+[14:48] Between uh the Prophe whip and the gourmet whip and the EC canisters. Okay. Uh is there any substantial difference between the canopers and the heads look like the half a quart one will fit on the one quart one as well, right? Yeah, okay. So I don't remember which I never remember which line is which, but EC has at least three different models of um of unit.
+
+[15:16] And I'm not talking like the ones that are thermally insulated versus not. I'm talking about like lines like Profi versus the other one. They had an even lower grade one years ago that had plastic heads on it that were for consumer only. Um they all are completely interchangeable. So you can stick the head of any unit that EC has ever made uh for a whipper.
+
+[15:39] You know, they obviously the um the uh the seltzer siphons are not interchangeable with with the with the whippers. But any model they've made, and I've tested models up to uh about twenty five years old, are completely 100% interchangeable. There are differences between the uh heads, some of which, especially on the newer ones, and I forget when they introduced this, but it's probably something in the area of uh you know 15 years ago or something, they have extra safety features in the in the newer heads. Um if you look at the threads in the uh head of uh one of the any recent one that you're likely to get, uh you'll notice that they're uh what's called interrupted threads. They have uh a line milled out of them, and that's uh an escape vent such that if you need to open it under pressure, which is actually very difficult to do, uh you you know it'll vent down that line uh before the top disengages.
+
+[16:42] So you can never gonna get the top blowing off of the bottom as you unscrew it. The uh they've changed the nature, the different series have different gaskets on the inside, uh, which by the way, the gaskets are also, to the best of my knowledge, a hundred percent interchangeable, so you can take the gasket from one and put it into another. The actual, I think also the screw attachments, I think are 100% um interchangeable, the exception being the old plastic uh home ones, don't have a screw-in uh whipper tip, they have a push-in whipper tip, so that's not interchangeable. But um all the other aspects of it, I think are interchangeable. The actual valve parts on the bottom are not, I think those are all different from unit to unit.
+
+[17:26] Um, but everything else pretty much is the threads on the CO2 uh things are completely interchangeable. Um I've never had one that's not. Um is that true? I think that's true. I think that's true.
+
+[17:42] Yeah, I think they're 100% interchangeable. You know, like because uh it would be hard for them to make it not, you know what I mean? Right. Uh yeah, cool. I have uh I have the half-liter one, and I've been like looking, I've been guaranteed that it find uh one liter wall, and I just wanted to make sure that uh like thermostaties dampling or anything like that, there wouldn't be a problem.
+
+[18:00] No, those Austrians, man, they're like they they're so hyped on safety, which is which is why like um they provided for me when I was writing uh liquid intelligence, they provided for me uh a series of um pressures in at in different liquids at different temperatures in different bottles at it, you know, with different numbers of chargers, and they literally would not provide me for data that they knew, because I spoke to their engineers, they dated they knew it was safe on their unit, but they wouldn't put it in case you used a unit that was manufactured by somebody else that didn't have the safety features that theirs did that might blow up. So they you know the you literally cannot put into uh an EC uh enough of a pressure that it will um that it will explode because it will back vent before this is what they tell me it'll backvent through the um through the CO2 entry point or through the N2O entry point rather before it explodes. The second mode of failure in um in an EC bottle is that the bottom that's dimpled in, right? That you know looks like a champagne bottle on the bottom, that dimple will invert to release the pressure. That's the secondary, like if all hell breaks loose and you created a special lid that screwed it and sealed it tight, right?
+
+[19:24] Then the bottom would invert before it um it explodes. And then they take every once in a while, I forget how many like thousand they make, they take and they screw it into a unit and literally explode it. Um they do it two ways. They do it hydrostatically, which is not very violent, right? Because whenever you know, hydr see, when you're when you're when you fill something with water and then you pump water in it to increase the pressure to explode it, do a hydrostatic test, which is how they test gas tanks.
+
+[19:51] Literally, as soon as the thing ruptures, because liquid's incompressible, it the pressure goes to zero because the you know the difference in volume between water under a thousand psi and water under zero psi is almost nothing. The volume difference is almost nothing. So um, so yeah, so they do a hydrostatic, but they also blow them up with air pressure and make sure that I mean it it probably sucks, you know what I mean, from a noise standpoint. But I've seen their rupture tests, and they don't they're not like pieces of shrapnel everywhere. They have a very nice failure mode.
+
+[20:25] Uh like opens up along the the side and just you know doesn't shatter, just opens up. So I would say you are a hundred percent safe. Plus, they're completely interchangeable. All right, cool. Yeah.
+
+[20:37] How much snow you got up there? I didn't get to go to Connecticut recently. Is it was the snow nice? Uh it was okay. It sort of turned crampy because it rained on uh Sunday or whatever, so it's like started out as probably about a foot and then the rain came and sort of ruined it on the shoreline.
+
+[20:53] You know, uh in New York we had some snow. Is there anything, Nastasi, more disgusting than old snow in New York City? It's so gross. Here's another thing. People take their dogs out to go to the bathroom in the snow, and then for some reason they're like, hey, it's snow, I don't need to pick up the poop.
+
+[21:07] No, especially you need to pick up the poop if there's snow, because then when it when the snow melts in New York City, people, for those of you that don't live in a city, when the snow melts in the city, the dog poop comes out to play. Like all the dog poop that people didn't pick up just like starts like it's like a glacier leaving. Instead of like little rocks strewn all over the glacial till, you get like dog poops everywhere. It's the worst. Speaking of which, I feel really bad.
+
+[21:29] Major, my labrador, today peed on a fruit vendor's box as they were unstacking it in the morning. What did you do? I I didn't notice it until it was too too. I don't know. I don't man, it's just horrible, horrifying.
+
+[21:42] Horrifying. What? Did you go ostrich? Uh I might have gone a little ostrich. I might have gone a little ostrich.
+
+[21:48] You know, we're living in a society. Wow. I mean, like the thing is, I mean, what am I gonna do about it? Pay him for the whole box of fruit. Okay, I'll tell you a story.
+
+[21:59] I was once with a guy. I was once with a guy, right? I thought this was a family show. It's a kind of show. I was once with a guy, and he was drunk out of his mind, and we were in a taxi cab, and he threw up in the taxi cab.
+
+[22:11] You ever been in this situation, Nastasia? No. Where someone's thrown up in a taxi cab? So the taxi driver starts yelling at me. I didn't throw up, so I don't know why he's yelling at me, but he's yelling at me, and I'm like, listen, I'll I'll I'll give you here, we'll get out, I'll I'll help you clean it, whatever up.
+
+[22:25] He's like, and like I was gonna I paid him like a lot of extra money. He's like, I can't take in another you know, person because I have to go get this professionally clean, blah blah blah. I'm out all this money. So I gave him all this money, and I cleaned up all the puke out of the back of his thing. And he's complaining about how he's not gonna be able to pick anyone up, and literally, I'm like trying to get my friend like standing again.
+
+[22:43] I look over, as soon as he pulls away, he throws on his freaking dome and picks someone else up within my vision. Within my freaking vision. So I'm not about to pay anyone for he's like I can't sell it. Of course, he's gonna sell the freaking fruit. He's gonna sell the freaking fruit.
+
+[22:59] Let me tell you this also. From a from a disgust level, it was just the box. It wasn't on the fruit. It was the box. But it was just a little bit, like a little bit.
+
+[23:09] In truth, a little bit of pea on the box is much less disgusting than what you see every day, which they actually spill their product on the ground. Right? Because pea theoretically is sterile. Okay. Whatever.
+
+[23:22] It's still horrifying. It's horrifying. Dave, did you say we had another call or not? We do have another call. Alright, call, you're on the air.
+
+[23:27] Hey Dave, it's Chris from Green Zone again. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing alright. What's going on? Uh well.
+
+[23:33] Hey, did you ever figure out that mint thing, by the way? Did you ever figure out that mint thing? Did you ever get the mint green, green, green? Wasn't that you? No, man.
+
+[23:39] It's uh it's impossible. So I have this person that I'm dealing with who has uh it's not freeze-dried, but it's like similar to freeze-dried. Uh I'm wondering whether if you use like this, which I can't talk about her process, but if if you have like something like that, or maybe freeze-dried mint pulverized, so the enzymes have been wiped out by dehydration, whether you could get a really serious mint flavor that way. I don't know. You ever tried freeze-dried?
+
+[24:06] No, I haven't, but I'll think about it. Yeah. Anyway, so what's your question? Yeah, so um, I have a bunch of your BDX cocktail cubes, and I think they work, you know, quite well. Thanks.
+
+[24:17] Um, one of my favorite bars in DC has an entirely hand cut ice program. So they only shake with one giant hand cut block of ice. And they get foam on their cocktails. Like, imagine just like a regular sour, like a dockery or something. Right.
+
+[24:32] Such a foam as if you'd think they've been using egg white. Um, just from the way they shake and the ice they're using. And like no matter what I do, using your cubes, using big ice cubes myself, I can't get that. What size ice cube do they use? I don't.
+
+[24:48] What size ice cube are they using? Uh about two, two two inch cubes. Right. So I made I made the the cocktail cube slightly smaller than I would have making making. That would have made it uh if I could guarantee what shaker you were using.
+
+[25:12] So like the cocktail cube is made such that it will also shake effectively inside of a 16-ounce pint glass. Right. Um whereas if I knew you were gonna use just like, you know, uh the standard um tin shaker set, then I would have made it bigger. So that's probably some of it. Also, like those ice cubes, the one advantage that ice does have over the one that's pre-made is that it will kind of beat itself into the shape of your shaker as it's shaking.
+
+[25:44] You know what I mean? And so it'll it'll kind of optimize itself to the shaker as it's being used. So there might be some kind of um advantage there. Also, and all their bartenders get good texture, or is it one or two bartenders? Um I've only noticed it from one.
+
+[26:00] I mean, he's the owner operator, and he's my friend. When I go there, I try to like sit in front of him. How tall is he? How tall, not tall at all. Huh.
+
+[26:08] Because we had a bartender at Booker and Dax, uh, Michael Smole, who has like super long arms, and I swear to God, that guy's shaking drinks texture are like, I mean, better than I could do, that's for sure. You know what I mean? Like when we were using the same ice, same everything, and I, you know, I'm big fan of saying that like there's no you know, that sh you know, that not not to worry and that we can all get good results, which is basically true. But man, his freaking shaking drinks, just because his arm is your friend maybe he's not too tall, does he have monkey arms? No, not really.
+
+[26:43] I mean, like, Smole's like shake is like somehow. I you know what you've never investigated. I've investigated speed of shake, but I've never investigated throw length. Does he have an extraordinarily long throw throw length on his shoes? It's interesting because he does sort of I mean, he shakes fast, but it's also kind of like weird, like circular back and forth thing, I guess.
+
+[27:06] Yeah, I've never been able to discern, and you know, we've run the tests where I have like you know, a bunch of different bartenders using different shaking techniques and speed and all of that. And I've never obviously found a difference in temperature of the drink and therefore in dilution. But uh, and I wasn't able to notice much textural difference in the first round um that we did based on texture, other than the ice floating on the surface. Now, this was years ago though, and we were we were using mainly bartenders who were all within a relatively um narrow range of styles. This was on your blog, right?
+
+[27:42] Yeah, yeah, years and years of years ago. And we were all using the same ice, cold draft. It would be interesting to rerun with big ice and see whether or not shaking style can influence the texture of the drink when using big ice. And you know what? It might be possible.
+
+[28:00] Because, you know, it might be possible. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I'm wondering is that when I shake with big ice, I'm using regular, you know, ice mold ice, which is not perfectly clear and has, you know, air bubbles and imperfections and stuff in it, where they're you know carving their cubes out of giant clear block. I'm wondering if the ice itself makes a difference, you know, the character of the ice regardless of the shape. Yeah, I highly doubt it. And my my the the thing about the um like frozen shake ice is I th you know it is true that uh sometimes, especially like let's say you have hard water and or a lot of uh gas and the ice is super cloudy, right?
+
+[28:45] So it's not just a situation where you have a modestly clear cube with that like white ball of garbage in the middle of it. Okay. Yeah. Uh those cubes tend to rupture when you're shaking with them. Right.
+
+[28:58] And if if your cube ruptures when you're shaking, then you're not getting the texturizing effect of it anyway, right? Because it's it's basically a physical effect, in my experience. Maybe that's the maybe that is an advantage to the perfectly clear ice. Yeah, the perfectly clear ice won't sh won't shatter, but I have to say our shake ice doesn't shatter either. Now we are New York City water is pretty um, you know, it's is pretty relatively, you know, soft and in inclusion free.
+
+[29:27] Uh and and if we s if we were, you know, in i in our dump sink, if I was noticing a bunch of shattered shake cubes, I would be I would change what we did because they one as soon as it shatters into into pieces, it's no longer serving its function as a texturizer. But um I I am now interested in whether I don't have the well, you know what? Like when when we get the new uh bar up and running, I'll run some tests, or maybe you can run some tests and come come back to me. Different shake styles when using big ice, because it's a test I've never run blind. Yeah.
+
+[30:02] You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that my my friend has said is that ice sort of kills the foam. So he says he just shakes with one cube and he shakes it in a way to not break up the cube and then like strains it as soon as possible. He doesn't let the shaker sit around before straining it. Well, that's definitely true.
+
+[30:21] I mean, but the same is true of like you shouldn't let it sit around in the glass before you drink it. Well, right, of course. But I mean, so you know, I was doing these tests myself. I made myself a bunch of dockeries last night. And as soon as I cracked the tin, there was like a huge amount of foam in the tin, and then I poured it out through uh cocktail kingdom corrico strainer, so no fine straining, into the glass, and like almost immediately the foam dissipated.
+
+[30:42] Right. And I'm wondering why would that happen. Well, there's not much in a daiquiri to hold foam. You know what I mean? Like there's just not much there.
+
+[30:50] Uh you know, so you know, and people have tried using different syrups with stuff in it to hold um to hold the foam better, like gum syrups and things like this. Does does gum syrup help for that? I've never had good luck with it, to be honest. Yeah, I know, I know your I know your opinions on gum syrup. Yeah, I mean like m but you know, the uh that's not to say that other people you know, th th with anything in life, right?
+
+[31:15] You you only test what you test, and if you don't find a lot of um you know, if if that tree of inquiry is not bearing fruit, you tend to just drop it. And there could be, you know, it could be that if you just stuck with it or ch changed your parameters a little bit, you get some kind of golden recipe. So I you know, like I'm totally um in with anything in cooking or an you know, a basically anything in in life. If someone comes and shows you something that's awesome, then it's awesome and you gotta change your position. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:45] I have not yet been shown that. I also don't believe I believe that um I don't believe that I don't understand the ice being a kind of a foam killer situation. Well, I think he meant like if it breaks up into little pieces, it just um it you know it'll it'll melt and kind of kill the foam. I don't quite understand either. I don't really kind of I I tend to not believe anything anyone says.
+
+[32:08] I believe the results people get, and then the trick is analyzing how they got the results and what the actual reason is, right? So what you know is that your buddy gets superior results, right? So now we also know that your buddy uses uh large hand cut uh ice. So then the question is, okay, if you were to load two shakers with different ice loads, like one regular shake ice and one hi ice the same size as the shake ice and have him shake both, do they come out? And then if if that's the case, then it's something having to do either with his shaking or his pouring procedure, or one of those two.
+
+[32:46] You know what I mean? Sure, sure. I'd be interested to hear whatever you whatever you find out because uh when we reopen, whenever you reopen a new place, uh I think it makes sense, and even if you have the time, it's just hard when you're actually running in service, uh, it makes sense to um kind of reevaluate fresh all all of your precepts. You know what I mean? Uh and then um that's how you you know, as I say, that's how you learn by just constantly reevaluating yourself.
+
+[33:14] It's just who has the time when you're actually in service, you just never have the time to reevaluate everything, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, and I personally don't have access to clear hand cut ice, so well, you could buy, you know, you can buy it from uh ice carving places, and then you have the added fun of being able to break down uh a block. So you know, I for some reason the guys at at uh Sombar, like they were all like hemming and hawing about it, but I wanted to get one of those 200-pound ice blocks in, not for service, just you know, as a fun thing for the bartenders to do to kind of break it down, but you know, we never we never did it. You know, but then I don't know, like remember that Stas? I was like, I'll you know, I'll get a chainsaw, we'll do the whole, we'll do the whole thing, you know.
+
+[33:56] Uh and then it just never it never happened. But I'm sure if you're friends with this person, they'll lend you some cubes. You take it home, you throw them in the freezer, let them temper out before you use them. Do they pre they cut to order? Are they that?
+
+[34:08] How long does it take them to make a drink? Well, I mean, they cut them sort of at the beginning of shift and maybe halfway through the shift, like the reload. Yeah, okay. So yeah, I'm sure that like, or you could just go there like, you know, if you're friends with them, go there like before service sometime and like run a you know, run a test with them, you know, something like that. I'd be interested to hear what happens.
+
+[34:26] Yeah. Yeah, in the meantime, I'm gonna send you a picture of what one of their shaken drinks looks like looks like. You know what I'm talking about. Alright, cool. Yeah, then we'll get uh you know what?
+
+[34:34] We'll we'll have a battle of the East Coast, and I'll bring uh I'll bring uh Michael Smole in and have uh Michael go go to town on you guys. We'll see who gets the best shaking drinks. Sound sounds good. All right. Cool then.
+
+[34:46] All right, you want to take a break and come back, Dave? Uh sure. Right back with cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook.
+
+[35:26] Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[35:56] Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit ChefSteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back.
+
+[36:24] Time to do a little more business. We got the uh got some Modernist Pantry business to do. Uh by the way, uh, we don't have an announcement this week for the spinzall. We do uh we are not charging your credit cards. Oh, yeah, we should say that now.
+
+[36:38] We had some people. Here's what happened. Uh let me do it, we'll do the ad first. We'll do the ad. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you.
+
+[36:46] Janie Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[37:26] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. I think they just called you a culinary tool, S. Nice. Sick burn. Yeah, you know, Dax does that all Dax does all that all the time.
+
+[37:41] Anytime anyone says any relatively like word that can be taken in a pejorative way, Dax is like, Dad, they just called you that. Like whatever it is. You learned it from watching May. Yeah, yeah. Wait, so what else were we gonna?
+
+[37:55] Wait, we were talking about charging credit cards. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so we had an issue. So the we're using a kind of a uh kind of a fake crowdfunding thing for the spinz all called a thhrinacea. What does that even mean?
+
+[38:07] We looked it up once, right? Thranacea. Bad girls drinking coffee with MCT oil, cashew, and cacao, and it says it's paleo. What's MCT? I don't know.
+
+[38:17] But is coffee paleo? Uh, well, it depends. I mean, like paleo, the definition of paleo, right? Make it as a caveman. Right.
+
+[38:26] But like, what what's in there? Coffee. Okay, so we're talking now like Ethiopian Highlands. What else? MCT.
+
+[38:33] Maybe Yemen. MCT. I don't know what that is. Cashew and cacao. So cashews don't come from there.
+
+[38:39] So, unless you were like real, I don't know. Yeah, so like that's the thing. No, paleo is like anything, basically it means not grains. Nothing that has been uh so they would have been able to make coffee back then. You can go, uh I think there are wild coffee species that you could kind of do that to.
+
+[38:59] I doubt that they're using that. You know what I mean? Like So the Ethiopian would have to go where to get the cashews and then back. Cashews, uh, where are cashews from? I think that they're they're Asian, aren't they?
+
+[39:14] Aren't they like or like uh Afghanistan? Also, like that paleo person, like, you know, let's hope you know, getting the cashew out of the cashew apple can be very irritating to your skin. You know what I mean? Like, it just it doesn't seem very likely. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:28] Yeah. Just seem doesn't seem likely. Cashews originated in Brazil. Oh, okay. Oh, what?
+
+[39:33] Really? That's what the internet says. Why do they grow all the cashew apples in Asia then? Maybe anyway, so Brazil. So yeah, so not possible.
+
+[39:44] So it's not not possible. So the paleo guy or woman in like the highlands of, I forget whether it's Yemen or Ethiopia, around there, right, that area of the world, right? Finds like some high altitude coffee bush, right? Takes the coffee beans, cherries off, and then you know the story of Caldi's goats, right? The story is is that the these coffee cherries fell into the fire and got buoyed, and then the goats ate it, and then the goats went crazy because of all the caffeine, and Caldi realized that the goats were eating these things, and that's what got the goats all hyped up, and that's how Caldi figured out that coffee was this was the stiznuff, right?
+
+[40:25] So what uh what we're saying here is that somehow this person got hit on the head, right? Somehow they floated all the way down, right? Out, somehow, like I don't know how they made it out into the open ocean, right? And then around, and then they made it all the way to South America, and luckily their paleo pockets still had coffee in them. Yeah.
+
+[40:52] That they then roasted. And they're like, hey, this fruit that's incredibly like irritating in my skin. If I rip the seed out of it, I can turn that into an edible and then cacao. Yeah. Well, that's from that same neighborhood.
+
+[41:05] Oh, good, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's in luck. Yeah, yeah, he's in luck. Not paleo.
+
+[41:10] I don't understand what that means. I don't know. Hey, look, Nastasi, you don't want to insult a paleo. She has a very good looking colored drink, though. I don't know what the hell that is.
+
+[41:18] It's not the coffee. It's not the garbage thing. Anyway, but my point is that people love the paleo stuff. I don't understand it. I understand it.
+
+[41:24] So we're not charging credit cards. So back to the spinz all. So uh so the the the kind of weak crowdfunding thing that we use, Thrinacea, like as soon as you stop the campaign, it's like okay, we're charging everybody now, even though we had told everyone that we weren't charging them, so that's why it gave everyone a pre-authorization, but we're not charging you until we give the next update, and it's gonna be hopefully soon. We're working with uh we're working with the factory now to get uh some updates, right? Okay.
+
+[41:55] Um back to some questions. Um, this is Matt not from Mystic. Uh I found your show a few weeks ago, uh, and I'm churning through the back catalog. Ned, my five-year old son, is fascinated with the concept of anyone anywhere being referred to as the hammer, and asked multiple times a day how he could become a hammer. Any insight you could provide uh would be to his delight, I'm sure.
+
+[42:19] Alright, Stas, so give him some insight. Well, it's like again, I've told people this many times, but like the nostasia that you get here on the cooking issues radio uh podcast. You won't let me be the nostasia I am in real life. Well, no. Why can't she live, Dave?
+
+[42:36] Why can't she live? What do you mean? You you don't like it when I I'm like, alright, one question to the callers. You're like, let them do what they want to do. Well, it's well, it's like you ask, and then you are like, no, don't do that.
+
+[42:55] Well I guess it's kind of like, but like to really know what she's like, you have to see how she treats me off air. Or anyone, really. Like, for instance, like it could be that she's just like, like, Nastasia is someone, and I kind of appreciate this about you. Like, you like to kick people when they're down. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:15] Uh only friends. Only friends. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, if you're just the ones who can take it. You're like, yeah, yeah, you know, well, they dish it too.
+
+[43:25] Everyone dishes it takes it. I don't do it to anyone who doesn't dish it. Yeah, except for the fact that it's also true that you have zero respect for people that can't take it. So do you. That's where we That's that's the one thing.
+
+[43:36] That's where you intersect. That's the one thing that we really agree on. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you yeah, if you can't.
+
+[43:44] It's like like it's Nastasia's beyond if you don't dish it if you can't take it. She's like, if you can't take it, get out of my face. You know what I mean? It's like I don't know sensitivity. Yeah, life's life's too short, and dishing it out is so enjoyable that if you can't take it, you're just weak.
+
+[44:03] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like it's like I would never want to like, I would never want to live in like an egg shell world where you had to like you know, but Nastasia, like, the thing that Nastasia is unlike you know me, Nastasia in like enjoys it to the point where you're getting visibly agitated, not because you can't take it, but because she's literally filling time that you could be using to solve a problem with endless queries about how your problem's not going well. For instance, the worst place for Nastasia to be is in the cockpit of an airplane with a problem.
+
+[44:43] You know what I mean? Because she'd be like, you're losing altitude, you're losing altitude, the altitude is going down, and you're like, I know, I know. You know what I mean? When really, instead of saying I know, freaking out in that. You'd be spending No, you wouldn't.
+
+[44:57] You'd be too interested in messing with the pilots to like to like worry about actually dying. You know what I mean? The stall warning's going off. Couldn't we say the same for you though, Dave? I mean, I mean, like, for example, when you were uh grilling her about why she doesn't care about coffee.
+
+[45:15] Oh to open that up. That was a big that was a special one for us. No, but like that, I mean, like, that's like the the reason is because also what I know about Nastasia is that she's just saying it to be ornary. No, that's not true. It's like it's like people who say that they like it's like people who say they like egg white omelets.
+
+[45:33] Does anybody on earth like an egg white omelet? No. Hell no. No, they are freaking gross. They're freaking gross.
+
+[45:39] It's just a crappy meringue. An egg white, an egg white omelet is a poorly made meringue without sugar. It's just like it's gross. You know what I mean? It's just nasty.
+
+[45:49] Nobody likes it. They think they like it. It's like my sister with her freaking 1% milk. Does anybody like that garbage? No.
+
+[45:56] No, it's disgusting. And I what I hate is people who convince themselves that they like this garbage and it's really for like wrong health reasons. I'm okay, like, let's say, let's say you literally can't have something anymore because you're allergic to it or k or it'll kill you, right? Like, I can't have cherries right now until we figure out this allergy thing. Someday they'll figure it out.
+
+[46:18] Right? So, like, if I said I don't like cherries because I can't have them allergic to, or then I would be like, okay, the guy is just trying to deal with a problem he has, right? The guy is just trying to take his sour grapes and turn them into sweet lemons. You know what I'm saying? I I I would excuse that kind of behavior because there's no way around it, so you might as well pretend that the way your life is is the way you want it.
+
+[46:42] You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of fruit in that analogy. Yes, as usual. But like the but in situations like with the 1% milk where what you're doing isn't helping you at all or making a real difference, I just can't tolerate people saying that they actually like it. You know what I mean?
+
+[46:57] I'd be like, just say that you're following it for some crazy health reason or some sort of like belief you have, some mystical belief that you know that that that milk is gonna change your life. Or anything. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yeah. No.
+
+[47:09] On the other hand, on the take the other side of it, uh, just give people what they freaking want. You know what? You know what's not fun? Uh like like being harangued by someone about your eating beliefs while you're doing it. So, like, I'll give you another example.
+
+[47:23] You know how like when you cook something for somebody? Okay, we've had this discussion before. What is your least favorite thing when you cook for someone that they do to you uh when the w to the food that you've made them? Uh season it before they eat it. Oh really?
+
+[47:37] My favorite is disassemble and disassemble it. Oh, like a hamburger and they're like Yeah, yeah, yeah, they take it apart or like a sandwich and they take apart the parts of the sandwich. But I'm like, just I assembled it in the order I want to. But the thing is, like, they're gonna enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. I'll take my son Booker, who as I said, you know, has some issues with like food, but like he has his like things so dry that they're I know they are completely unpalatable.
+
+[48:02] And if you could just have him try the stuff to the way you want it, you know it would be better. But you can't force people to do it then. Because that's what he wants. He eats only protein. Why am I eating eggs and chicken?
+
+[48:15] You said shut up. No, I say it to you. I said it to you. Look, you don't know what it's like to cook for someone who's extremely picky. But like the uh my point being that like it is that it's a hard as a cook, it's very hard to ride the line between what you want people to like and what they actually like.
+
+[48:33] But you should usually just give people what they want. If they want an egg white omelet, just give them the freaking egg white omelet. You know what I mean? And then like go in the back room and just punch something. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:43] Like get a get a punching bag, drink an extra couple glasses of wine. Like that's a solution. You know what I mean? Um there is a solution. I'll give you an ex- I'll give you an example.
+
+[48:52] I'm not gonna say who it is, but there's someone I've known a long time and they're well known in the food world. At a certain point in college, worked at a froyo joint, right? And all the sorority uh um people would ch come in and they would order the fat-free granola to be a topping on their fat-free froyo, right? Now, if you had served them full fat granola, they would not have liked it because it's full fat. Let me give you another hint here.
+
+[49:25] There's no such thing as no fat granola. So what this person used to do was heap the regular granola, which is which is basically a method to take oats and have them carry fat for you, right? And like we'll put the full fat granola on top, and they freaking loved it. But if you told them that they were eating fat, and she was to say this, if you told them that they had full fat granola, they'd be like, Can we I don't like it? It's too greasy.
+
+[49:49] Can you get me the granola you used to have? And she's like, it's the same granola. But it's not cool. It's not cool to serve somebody something and lie about it. Do you ever do that?
+
+[49:59] Uh yeah. Really? Well, they're like, is there any butter in this? I'm trying to be on a diet. And I'm like, no.
+
+[50:05] See, I can't lie to people. The only I I used to lie, I uh the two times I've lied that I can remember about food. Two times I've lied. One, I'm sitting there grinding pepper onto a steak, right? Grinding, just grinding a lot of pepper on a steak.
+
+[50:20] And Booker comes up and he was going through an anti-pepper cake. He's like, Are you putting pepper on that steak? I said, no. Because you can literally see me grinding pepper onto it. I'm just like, no, I'm not.
+
+[50:32] And then that was it. He was like, oh. And he walked away. And the other was the time that Dax was like, I don't want French toast. I hate French toast.
+
+[50:40] I was like, try my Lithuanian toast. He was very young and he loved it. And like a couple years later, he was like, he was like, uh, that was the same as French toast, wasn't it, Dad? I'm like, yes. Yes, it was.
+
+[50:51] You know what I mean? So anyway. Lithuanian toast. Where'd we get to? Oh, so how do you become the hammer?
+
+[50:57] Just uh, I don't know, just you know, just be be more nostalgia-like, I guess. Right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh now for the food question.
+
+[51:07] Years ago, my grandmother taught me to home can tuna, uh, which is uh raw tuna, a quarter of a teaspoon salt packed in half pint jars, eleven pounds of pressure for an hour and forty minutes. That's a hundred minutes, right? Yeah, that's standard. Uh, and I learned that canned fish need not be vile dried, flavorless, uh dried out, flavorless dreck. Every other year or so, we'll haul ourselves out to the Oregon coast and pick up a couple whole lime caught tuna and process them.
+
+[51:33] The quality is so much better than supermarket tuna. It's like a completely different product altogether. I've had the fortune to taste some of the higher end Spanish and Russian tin stuff. I've never had the Russian stuff. You ever had Russian?
+
+[51:45] No. Uh Russian tin stuff that's pr I've had uh anyway, that's pretty uh damn fantastic. I'd like to gear my approach to eventually aging some of these out, as I've heard this is relatively common for Spanish producers to do, uh, though I may be misinformed on this. I'm only uh able to really find basic tame recipes for canning from my local extension office. Uh shout out to OSU.
+
+[52:06] Uh while these are great, they tend to err on the side of caution instead of the side of quality. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge or experience getting freaky with home canned fish. My first targets would probably be trout, mussels, and clams. Razors, long necks, and cockles are easiest to get for us. The whole family retains uh appropriate licenses to get them, so these little buddies are easy and basically free to get.
+
+[52:27] Thanks for any insight and guidance, Matt. Uh, I haven't actually done my own um uh canning. I happen to really like canned uh fish uh of all types, including I like canned octopus, I like canned mussels, I like canned oysters, I like canned tuna, I like canned sardines, I like canned uh mackerel. You like all that stuff, right, Stas? Yeah, I love that stuff.
+
+[52:49] Um But uh I have had the age stuff. Harold McGee brought us once uh aged uh sardines. I think he had also some aged spam, and he might have had some aged tuna. Remember that? Somebody got sick.
+
+[53:05] Piper, who used to work for us, claimed he got sick, but who knows? You know, you know with Piper's life, who knows what made him sick? You know what I mean? Spam doesn't have any gluten in it, right? No, it's just no.
+
+[53:16] A lot of salt. But uh but we had them up to I think what was it? Was it five or ten years old that McGee brought? Don't remember. It was something pretty old like that.
+
+[53:24] And it was good. Uh I mean, like actually the the sardines, I think there was so much variance because we had both Spanish and French producers. I think the variance between the different sardines was almost as high as the variance on aging, so it was kind of hard to uh check out. Also, Lucky Peach did something on aging. But relative to getting freaky with it, here's the issue.
+
+[53:43] Uh the canning recipes um are based on the amount of time and temperature it takes to get uh the fish up to a point where spores are killed because tuna is considered well, not considered, is low acid um food, right? So what they're trying to do is kill um specifically uh botulism. Uh now the time and temperatures that you're using for canning of those things kill all of the pathogenic spores, but I think for things like clam, you might even actually need to go higher or longer to kill anything that might possibly grow in it, right? Which is why occasionally you'll get cans that'll that'll blow, even though you've um even though you've cooked them. I don't know that for a fact but I read somewhere that uh clams in order to be a hundred percent completely sterile against everything ever uh that you're gonna do need to go um a little higher in temperature and um but I'm not sure so no I've never gone freaky you might be able if you really want to do lower temp what I would do is this first I would not I would try to do a lower time temp and see whether it really makes a difference.
+
+[55:00] Don't try to preserve it. Just keep it in the fridge for like a week right because put it this way let me just go back go back for a minute. Just start fresh. What you want to do is you want to attempt to cook the fish for a uh you can't cook it for a lower for at a lower temperature too much because you need to kill the spores period right that's why you're trying to make it shelf stable. What you can do is you can see whether or not cooking it at an intermediate temperature even makes a difference right so like I you let's say you did just regular boiling water canning and you did it for uh you know an you know 110 110 uh 100 minutes or whatever it is and then you put it into your fridge you let it age for uh you know you let it like mellow out for like a week uh week and a half it's gonna be fine right then you pull it out and you taste it what does that taste like compared to fresh canned properly tuna is it better?
+
+[55:55] Is it worse? It might that it might be actually worse those higher temperatures right once you've overcooked the tuna, the higher temperatures might actually re-soften the meat a little bit and increase the kind of meaty uh you know kind of uh flavors you get out of it. So you might find that those lower temperature canned fish might actually be not as good. Uh so I would run that test just to kind of see what's going on. Whether you prefer, like whether you prefer it straight out of the gate.
+
+[56:23] Now, if you if you do, in fact, prefer a lower temperature, let's say uh like a boiling water can um where it's sealed in a can and it's just under boiling water, then you can start looking into things like adding uh nitrites to it to kill um to kill the botulism such that botulism can't grow. And then you wouldn't be killing other sporeforming things necessarily, but you might make it bacteriostatic enough such that you could age it with a lower temperature, um lower temperature canning procedure. But I would run some tests first to see whether or not it even makes sense. Does that make sense, Nastasia? Yes, we are out of time.
+
+[56:58] What? It's one o'clock. Uh I had a question on uh what was it? It was on uh aging from Ritz. What was it about here?
+
+[57:07] Oh, all right. Well, we'll just get okay. I'll get to it real real quick. Uh Moritz uh wrote in about aging uh and said, by the way, uh, what's the address people should send their questions into? Um Lopez at Booker and Dax.com.
+
+[57:22] You got that, people? And Lopez Lopez. N Lopez at Booker and Dax.com. Umrights in, I'd love to hear what you guys think about ultrasonic aging and infusing uh with regards to um spirits. And so what they do is is people have used uh ultrasound to uh basically they flow lick liquor over wood chips uh and then they they can alter the temperature and aerate it and they hit it with ultrasound as a way to speed age it.
+
+[57:50] And the question is, what do I think about that? And what I think is this uh it might be possible to get a good tasting liquor this way, in other words, you might be able to get a result that you like, but I never think that accelerated aging or accelerated anything is a substitute for the slow, well, very rarely, like is the substitute the same thing. So I think everyone in the world should just stop what they're doing, stop focusing on is uh is rapid and rapid infusion and long-term infusion, is rapid aging, slow aging, are they the same? They're never gonna be the same. It's never ever, ever gonna be the same.
+
+[58:33] The question is, they're different. Are they both useful? Can they both make delicious products? And then if they can, use uh the technique that you want to get the result that you want. Next week I'm gonna talk about connected tissue because Todd wrote back about a connective tissue, and uh Nick Devlin in the UK is working maybe on us with some uh some heat transfer stuff, so we might have more fun low temperature uh meat stuff to talk about next week on Happy Valentine's Day on cooking issues.
+
+[59:10] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[59:39] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:31] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 in Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwig Brooklyn. Call in all of your cooking-related questions or otherwise really. To 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Joined as usual in the studio with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:52] How are you doing, Nastasia? Good. How are you? Alright, it's been a while, right? Two weeks is uh we missed last week.
+
+[0:57] What was I? Was I I was away? You were I was away. Here I was here? I was not here.
+
+[1:03] Then I would have been here in the studio. You weren't here here. You weren't here here, but you were in New York. I was not in New York. Yes.
+
+[1:09] You stepping out on us, Dave? No. I was not in New York. Oh, wait, there's some no, I had to I had to go to a doctor. That's it.
+
+[1:15] I had with my son. I had to take my son to it. That's what it was. And uh Dave, join as usual in the booth with uh Dave. How are you doing?
+
+[1:21] Good, how about you? You know what the problem is is that like uh you have no catchy nickname. You have no catchy nickname. Maybe someone in the You haven't given me one yet. I know, but like oh Nastasia's microphone's wandering away.
+
+[1:34] Like I know that Nastasia enjoys not speaking into the microphone so that no one can hear what she's saying. But this microphone in particular is conspiring against her today. And like that noise you hear is Nastasia trying to tell her microphone what what. And look, it's just like curving away from her, throwing the hate down on Nastasia. You know what?
+
+[1:53] Nastassi, that's a wise microphone. That is a wise microphone moving away from you. I don't know, Dave, that that's good. Wow. That's Dave just did a serious, like like spit and bubblegum solution.
+
+[2:05] He pulled the microphone out of its socket and then jammed it into the socket sideways. What? That's pretty good. Yeah, well, gotta love it. That's why I get the big bucks.
+
+[2:14] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. He really wanted Peter Kim on. Who did, Dave? Why?
+
+[2:19] He didn't need a whipping boy? Uh Miss Peter, you know. I'm sure Peter will come on. He's a good foil for you, of course, too. Yeah.
+
+[2:26] Nice. And he'll actually say things, unlike someone I know, Nastasia. I think he would hate it more if I said a ton of things. I like how you say hate it more. Like the baseline is hate.
+
+[2:35] Yeah, the baseline is hate. I think we should try though. I mean, we'll never know unless you try, right? That's right. Oh, he would it would drive him crazy.
+
+[2:42] We've had people on who checked out. All the more reasonable take away from him. What do you mean take away from you? You're such a jerk, Nastasia. That's like that would take it away from you.
+
+[2:48] I don't consider it like that. I enjoy having people on, and I enjoy talking to people. That's when you start mouth mouth uh see people, Nastasia. Nastasia just is one big pile of explain that evil feelings. It's a funny story.
+
+[3:04] Why can't we do it? Because because it also deals with somebody else. No, we never we never have to bring that part up ever. Look, I'm intrigued. So when you're talking, when someone's talking to you and you're really mentally nervous and you're or not nervous, uh nervous is not the right word, but like mentally excited, like your brain's churning really quickly, and the other person is saying something, and you've in your mind like anticipated everything that that person's gonna say, and you can't wait for them to stop saying it so you can say something else.
+
+[3:35] Even if you're listening to them and absorbing and enjoying what they're saying, it's like you like want the conversation to already be like three or four minutes ahead because you know what that person in your well, and also in your head, like the you know, in your head that like you've mapped out the whole conversation. Sometimes it changes, but I've seen this not just in me but in other people. Uh so it's this mouth puppeting where you're literally like, in order to stay focused on what they are saying instead of racing ahead, you literally mouth the words that they are saying as they are saying them. And so it's incredibly irritating to people when when you know anyone does it. So, like Nastasia's caught me doing it on several occasions.
+
+[4:14] And so she's supposed to do punch me right in the face. She's supposed to punch me right in the face when I do it. Right in the face. Right? Yes.
+
+[4:22] Anyway. Uh so but Nastasia just being like evil. I'm not being evil. No, no, no. See, that's the thing.
+
+[4:31] She has this idea that like I want people on, and then like I get mad somehow when they say something because she thinks I care about like my voice time, which is not the case. If I sat here and didn't just spew a continuous line of words, Nastasia would just sit there with a look on her face and say not one thing. Who said that? You know, it was you! You're just an evil person or it was.
+
+[5:01] Dave Chang did not say that. Dave Chang has never listened to this show even one time. Or it was at an event that you were all co-hosting. That's just you're just like, first of all, also Nastasia will take an offhand comment. Like, seriously, if this dude out here with a baseball hat that's eating a pizza right now came in, met us for the first time, and make a comment.
+
+[5:22] If it was to Nastasia's liking, she would bring it up for the next 15 years in defense of some crazy idea she has or the other. It's just a case. Okay. It's just true. Oh, now she's doing the okay.
+
+[5:36] I'm just, you know. Okay. Go home to mom. Go home to mom. Wow.
+
+[5:42] Wow. Wow. Just kidding. Wow. Jesus.
+
+[5:47] Anyway. So a little bit of sad news, but I'm not gonna do the sad part of it. My grandpa died uh over the weekend. He was almost 98. He was 97.
+
+[5:59] This is the one in Florida? Yeah. He was David Eugene Arnold the First, the first of the line. I'm the third and last in that in that line, because my wife was like, it's gotta stop somewhere. It's gonna stop with you.
+
+[6:13] So like I'm like, I'm David Eugene Arnold the third. Of course, my dad's number two. But um, yeah, so he was uh 90, uh he was 97, almost 98, and uh sharp, sharp up till the end. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see him. I just old age, he was in his sleep, he just died.
+
+[6:32] Uh he had been he'd he'd broken some um bones over the past year, and so he he no longer get around a lot, and so like once you're like lying in bed most of the time, like you it you know, you tend to degenerate fairly quickly. But you have to go to Florida? Um the funeral hasn't been I'm gonna have to go to Florida. But the um anyway, I didn't get to see him as much as I'd like in the past ten years or so. But it's one of my uh I'll share some food stories.
+
+[6:57] So my and I've said like a lot of these on air already, but you know, in in honor of him, I'll I'll say, you know, say them again. The um he he grew up uh in uh kind of Pennsylvania, and so his brother actually worked in a pretzel factory during the depression, and it was from like that branch of the family that you know all Arnold's true Arnolds love pretzels and hate fake pretzels, hate like non like hate pretzel sticks because they're not pretzel shaped, hate pretzels with added fat in them because they taste like crackers, they don't taste like pretzels. And so, like, you know, from him I've inherited kind of that kind of side of you know love of love of pretzels. But uh he also used to tell me stories about how he and his brother, who died at like the age of like uh 101, would like during the depression, like uh people in the neighborhood would cut open pumpkins and just ferment them. And one of my great food regrets is that uh something like 20 years ago when I went to visit him uh once, he was making uh dandelion wine and all these like weird wines that were like you know hearkening back to his youth.
+
+[8:02] And I was too stupid and snooty at the time, maybe it's 25 years ago, to like enjoy them, and so I was kind of a dick about them. And if I could only go back and like taste them with an open mind, I would be such a better human being than I am now. You should always take into account like the culinary heritage of your uh of your you know um of those who have come before you. But anyway, a couple more things about him. So he uh was a radar uh designer, and during uh before World War II was working for Westinghouse.
+
+[8:28] It was actually uh, I think running or on the design team that designed the famous uh radar at Pearl Harbor that was ignored by the military as the as the Japanese were coming in to attack. So his radar actually saw the wave of uh of uh planes coming in that was ignored. Interesting fact, but he kept on doing radar design over the years, and from that, I have several food-related stories. One, he would tell me about the people, and my dad I think also knew about this because he did some radar work, you know, when he was young, uh, just like his old man. Uh, how they would at Thanksgiving in the early warning uh in the early warning radar stations, uh, you know, way out up in the boons, they would put a turkey at the focus point of the um of the big uh radar dishes, the giant early warning radar dishes, and fry not fry, but you know, microwave turkeys with the giant radar dishes.
+
+[9:18] He also said that uh so the the thing that runs a radar is a magnetron, which is the same thing that runs a microwave oven. And the the the lore is that a Raytheon tech, uh, you know, the company Raytheon, a Raytheon Tech noticed that a candy bar in his pocket was melting when he was getting close to these microwaves, and that's how he kind came to think of the microwave oven as being a kind of good idea. Anyway, so the other story, and this is not food-related, that related to the microwaves, is that um is that the story, and this may not be true, but that uh so young soldiers used to fry like this flash fry their nads when they would go out at night as a way of like temporary birth control. But that's got to be apocryphal because who would do that? What lunatic would do that?
+
+[10:00] Uh what else? He um he was the one who I wanted to try years and years ago to convince to help me build a room-sized microwave, and he always refused to help me, just like my dad always refused to help me build lasers that were actually gonna damage people. Now you can buy them on eBay. Uh what more food. So he was the one that told me about the chicken gun.
+
+[10:18] Have I talked about the chicken gun on air before? Yes. Yeah, so I'll say again briefly. So in in the they used to use um a compressed air cannon to fire birds into windshields. This has been covered on Mythbusters, but he used to fire birds into windshields to test the windshields for impact resistance.
+
+[10:34] And I forget why Mythbusters cared about it, but the thing that always intrigued me, as I said before on the show, is that uh grandpa said that the uh the um janitor would come take the birds and cook them afterwards. And so I've actually built, I have it sitting in Connecticut, and once it warms up again, I'll start firing it again. I built a chicken gun so that I could fire uh last year I built it for that pilot that I never got used for anything. So I have a chicken gun. If anyone wants to like me to fire stuff out of the chicken gun, uh I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want with the footage now.
+
+[11:04] We can fire stuff out of chicken guns and cook them to see what kind of nice tenderizing effect firing a bird out of a chicken has. Wow, is it the chicken sound effects? Uh you know, so there's that. When I was in grad school, I built a chicken gun based on a Delta 88 spring. That's a car for those of you that don't know old cars.
+
+[11:21] Uh it didn't work so well. Compressed air is really the way to go. Anyway, I now own a compressed air cannon. Um what else? Last but not least, almost every day, or not second to last, but not least, almost every day he would mix himself a drink that he called the Bonnie Prince Charlie, which he uh assured me was uh a kosher name for this drink.
+
+[11:40] It was actually uh a rusty nail, which is scotch and drambue. And if you want to, if you've never had drambue, drambue is a is a mixture, it's a scotch base with uh honey, they say heather honey, and some spices. Although in reality, what a rusty nail is, or as my grandpa called it, or Bonnie Prince Charlie, is essentially a scotch old fashioned. So you can whip yourself up some honey simple syrup if you don't want to go out and buy the drambuy and make yourself a scotch uh old fashioned. He had it built, he he always built built it on the rocks, and you can do that.
+
+[12:07] You could stir it down if you wanted a little more dilute. The standard recipe for uh rusty nail or Bonnie Prince Charlie as he called it, is three quarters of drambooey in an ounce and a half of scotch, which is preposterously sweet, especially if you're gonna drink it as an old fashioned, if you're not gonna stir it down. So I would shade that drambuy back or up to scotch or both. Uh and last but not least, he was the person who said to me uh in his mid to late 90s that if God wanted you to drink skim milk, he would have made it come out of the cow that way. Anyway, uh and so he lived to be.
+
+[12:39] I always thought he'd be a hundred stars, but he never made it to a hundred. I always assumed, like we always assumed, oh, we don't need to go down to Florida this year because he's obviously gonna make it to a hundred. I was wrong. You know, add it to another long list of the things that I'm wrong about. Um so do you do anything cool uh this weekend?
+
+[12:56] No. No? Nothing? Nothing good. You, Dave, anything?
+
+[12:59] Any food-related anything? Food related. No, not really. No? So I've been doing some interesting food-related stuff, which maybe if I have time I'll talk about later.
+
+[13:09] So uh person who listens on the radio, Nick Devlin in uh the UK has introduced me to the idea of this software, ComSol, which is a physics modeling program. So I've been doing some um, I've been doing some um modeling, some heat heat modeling on low temperature cooking. If we have some time later, I could talk about some of my preliminary um problems and results, because what I really need from the cooking issues crew, it meaning you guys who are listening, is uh so I have to write this book. Maybe I'll talk about it now really briefly. I have to write this book on low temperature uh cooking.
+
+[13:41] Now, the book is supposed to be specifically low temperature cooking for that's useful uh in in a in a home, right? So not like the crazy stuff that you know I was doing back uh at the French Culinary Institute, and not stuff where it's a billion steps to get a result. Like, you know, like my motto has typically been massive amounts of work for marginal amounts of improvement, right, Stas? Like that's my motto. Massive work, minimal improvement.
+
+[14:10] Improvement, but minimal compared to the amount of work I put in. And uh so this book has to not be that. So the mental theory of this book is going to be massive amounts of kind of thinking, research, thought, hemming and hawing at the outset, and then to use to make simplified recipes that people can do at home. And a lot of a lot of it is what is I'm gonna focus on things like kind of like party tricks, right? So like how to cook like your holiday roast or your um or like a crown roast of pork, things like this that really kind of you know have died out because they kind of suck traditional well that roast not, but like crown roast to pork, because they kind of they're never quite right.
+
+[14:50] You ever had one, Stas? Crown roast? You know what they look like though, they look awesome. You've seen them in 70s pictures, no? Maybe.
+
+[14:56] So you take the whole, like so. Imagine like a rack of lamb but pork, but Frenched out and then turned into a tube, so it's like a like a monarch's crown, and then you stuff it full of stuffing in the middle, and then you like roast that sucker up and you serve it, and like it's just it's a super baller 70s, I mean, and previous, but like you know, I remember it from the 70s, it was like a thing people did back when A, pork was a little fattier, and B, people were okay with things that were just cooked into oblivion. You know what I mean? So you'd have this thing, but the problem is is that remember when I used to do the whole fish? Yeah, fried whole fish.
+
+[15:28] So the problem with frying a fish, uh a whole thing, or frying anything that's bent, or cooking anything that's bent, is not only that it's large, and so you're gonna tend to overcook the stuff on the outside uh or undercook the stuff on the inside. The problem once something is bent is that you have very, very uh different um kind of thicknesses, so the outside gets overcooked way before the inside does, especially if there's like a lack of air circulation on the inside of let's say a crown roast, or at the bent part of like a whole fish. Let's say if you've bent a whole fish into a U-shape, which is something that I do a lot. So one of the great things about low temperature cooking is you can pre-cook the whole thing all the way through to a low temperature, right? And then you can let it cool down, and then you can roast it on high heat, and you're just looking for the color on the outside.
+
+[16:14] We call this like low temperature or sous-view for insurance purposes, and you can do something like a crown roast really easily and not worry that you're either gonna overcook or undercook the middle. It's great, right? Um problem is is that I've been trying to figure out exactly how to tell people to cool it down. Similarly, even if you're doing like the classic, like every every night low temperature that I do is like steak. Not every night, obviously, I don't have steak every night, but like that's my kind of usual like every day I'm gonna use a circulator meal is like steaks, right?
+
+[16:46] So with steaks, I always tell people, and I've said this before on the air a little bit, I tell people to, you know, cook the steak, whatever you're gonna do, 55 degrees, then let it cool down. Uh you know, I I've I actually force the circulator down to about 50 degrees so that when I sear it, it doesn't go too high in temperature. Now, the problem with this technique in general is that if you're gonna if you're gonna do it, you have to use relatively thick steaks, like inch and a quarter, inch and a half. Anything thinner than that, and even if you drop the temperature from let's say 55, which is what I cook to Celsius, you drop it down to let's say 50 Celsius, you're still gonna overcook the center if you um if i i if it's thinner than that. So already like you're kind of limited because you have to use these thicker meats if you want to do this kind of a technique.
+
+[17:32] So, I mean, in the past I've done techniques for smaller cuts of meat, uh where you low temp it and actually chill it down, keep it in the fridge, then bring it out and like flash fry it a couple of times or pan it a couple of times, and the inside comes up to temperature. The other problem with a thick steak, if you drop the whole thing down to five degrees, let's say to fifty, is that once you sear it, yeah, you haven't overcooked it, but the inside's a little cool and uh you've had it before, Stas when people do low temperature meats and like one of the issues is it's not warm enough on the on the on the plate, right? Because when you integrate the temperature across the whole thing. Anyway. So it turns out that fish we saw that was fried that was still alive?
+
+[18:08] Terrible. That's a gross. That's a separate story. We could talk about that. That's a classic preparation where you keep the animal's head alive and its gills alive, you wrap it in moist towels and then you fry its body so that its head's still alive while its body's cooked, which is probably the worst thing that's a good thing.
+
+[18:22] Sounds pretty cruel. What? In person. That's probably the worst thing I've seen in person. Yeah, all uh like let's let's forget the cruelty.
+
+[18:29] I also don't like the texture taste. Okay. Right? I mean, but in other words, like, no, no, no, look, I know. I'm just thinking straight up like I'm I don't mean to be like horrible about it, but like not only is it a h not only is it horrific, right?
+
+[18:42] Not only is it horrific, it doesn't even get a good It's not even like Yeah, what's the point even if it doesn't taste good? Yeah. There's a huge cultural difference though because like uh, you know, there's uh, you know, hundreds of millions uh of people who want their fish like crunchy like that. You know what I mean? Like what's the point of keeping it's just a trick?
+
+[19:03] It's just a party trick to show like freshness, right? It's just a party trick. Uh to play God. Yeah, it's like a party, it's like a cruelties party trick. I mean, look, um whatever.
+
+[19:16] It Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail you at the end. So no, so like uh no, Nastasia's the one that brought up the Nastasia brother. So she was just thinking about that. Uh yeah.
+
+[19:26] Uh that w I first saw that when I was a kid on an on a uh episode of a show called That's Incredible. It was either that or Ripley's Believe It or Not, which was an 80s show. And in that one, it was a little bit different. They didn't fry it. What they did was they filleted it, left the body there, and then they replaced the fillets on the living body of it.
+
+[19:45] Also, and so you're sitting there and the gills are like, bep up, bit bub. You know what I mean? And the fish is like, what the f you know what I mean? Like, ah man. Oh my god.
+
+[19:56] Anyway, so back to the food. So here's the issue, I need your help with people. Um it turns out that the technically best way, so when you're cooking a piece of meat, uh the rate at which uh something heats up is dependent on the temperature delta, okay? So the difference in temperature. That's why like, you know, it takes a long, long time for the inside of a meat to get up the last couple of degrees, because once the meat's once the the main body of the meat has started heating up, you have very small temperature difference between, let's say, the part of the meat that's in the very center from the part of the meat that's that's right next to it.
+
+[20:35] And once the temperature difference is very small, the heating, the temperature increase rate goes down and down and down. So you're the rate at which temperature can increase in a piece of meat is related to the difference in temperature between the heat you're supplying and I mean uh between the temperature you know region that you're supplying heat from and the temperature region you're you're putting heat into. So um when you push a piece of meat down only five degrees, right? You're pushing it down and you haven't pushed it down that far. Then when you're searing it, you put a very high temperature delta onto it, right?
+
+[21:10] Uh, you know, the the surface of the meat's gonna get up very quickly to about a hundred degrees C. You know, it won't go above it until a crust forms, but that piece of meat there is gonna be about a hundred degrees C. So you're going, you've reduced the the inside of the hole inside of the meat by five degrees, but you're applying an X an excess of 50 degrees temperature delta to it, and that forces a pretty big temperature spike through the meat. So you have to chill the meat down quite a bit in order to have it not overcook when you're searing it. So the correct answer is to actually force a large negative temperature delta into it.
+
+[21:43] In other words, put the meat into cold water uh for a couple of minutes and then pull it out of the cold water and then sear it, and then it all averages out. The problem is is that it's technically, right? That sounds like technically more of a pain in the ass. If I have to pull out uh a piece of meat out of a circulator and then throw it into uh, you know, a pot of water in the sink with the cold water tap on drizzle and then time it for three minutes, then pull it out and then sear it, that seems like a huge pain in the ass, right, Nastasia? So the question I have in my mind is is that if this is the technically best way to do it, and it doesn't require thermometers or measuring anything, just requires timing, is that too much for people to do at home, or is that a reasonable step?
+
+[22:26] Is that still like something that people will be like, oh yeah, I'll go do that? Or is that like uh I'd rather just not do that? You know what I mean? Like that's the so I'm gonna have to run a bunch of tests, and I need some mental advice from people out there over what is considered reasonable steps for people to do on an everyday kind of uh cook. What do you think, Stas?
+
+[22:48] Yeah. No? I mean, also, like, you know, how do people want to fit it? Assuming that people aren't gonna go buy a sears all, uh, or even if they are, like, what's the best way? Like, do people have a problem with deep frying finish?
+
+[22:58] Do people not want to deep fry at home? Do people want to pan their stuff when they're finishing? Do people want to be able to oven finish this stuff? I gotta figure out what people want to do, because I have to separate out in my head what I would do from what I think other people want to do and then just provide them with the best protocol for what they want to do. Does that make sense to S anyways?
+
+[23:21] Because you're willing to do a lot. I'm willing to do a lot for something that's only a little bit better. You know what I mean? And and also like I have access to like I have access to stuff that most people don't have access to. So I'm gonna assume that just because I've organized my life that way.
+
+[23:37] You know like I'm assuming that in in warmer weather months people can finish on a grill. So then you know I'll have a lot of grill stuff in there. I'm assuming people are going to want to finish some stuff in an oven but you know panning because it makes so much smoke is kind of a pain in the butt and also uh deep frying although it's technically superior I just don't know what people are gonna say. We got we got Robert in the chat room saying sear using searzole or in a pan never fried. You well who said that Robert in the chat room.
+
+[24:03] Okay so what does Robert have against frying? Robert what do you have against frying? See the issue with frying is remember for meats that don't have a crust the only issue with frying is if you have uh once your fry oil becomes even a little bit degraded it leaves a uh kind of a uh a a fry taste on the outside but like nice not hyper fresh because then it doesn't have good uh properties but like oil that's in perfect condition has no kind of off flavors to it you deep fry like a rack of lamb like you do a rack of lamb and you deep fry it for about I don't know a minute and a half, uh two minutes, you deep fry that rack of lamb, and the crust is perfect all the way around. So nice. But then you have to, like, if you don't like it i if there, you know, you then you towel it, you paper towel it, then you can brush with you know butter or whatever else you want.
+
+[24:49] Same with steaks, like a good steak that's like deep fried all the way around, gets a perfect kind of crust all the way around it. But um if your oil is even a little bit bad, it's no good at all. Um anyways. Robert's listing his reasons. He says, uh it's messy.
+
+[25:06] What do I do with the oil? Dangerous, kids around, expensive, I'm lazy, wife won't go for it. Those are all good reasons. Fair. Do you remember uh do you remember when Lucy threatens uh Lionel in I think it was the the Peanuts the Christmas special when he's like why you know why should I listen to what you say?
+
+[25:26] And she goes, I'll give you five reasons and puts up her fist, and he goes, Those are good reasons. Yes, remember that? Love that. Dave Peter just said he got you a middle seat on your flight to El Paso. Is there anything you're doing in El Paso that you can tell people about?
+
+[25:42] I don't know what I'm doing in El Paso. I'm going to El Paso pretty soon. Uh middle seat, that's brutal. What? Middle seat, that's brutal.
+
+[25:49] Uh it's a it's a it's a a fun fact that anyone who works with me, any time anytime people want to send me somewhere, they like to put me in the middle seat in the back of the airplane on the seat that doesn't recline. You know that one seat on the airplane that doesn't recline? They like me to be in the middle in the back, and if they were able to, they would always organize it for rough weather flights. They they can't, but they always would if they could send me through a cell of thunderstorms. Why do you think that is?
+
+[26:17] Uh because people hate me. Like it turns out Nastasia once booked me on this. I still told the story before on the air, but Nastasia sent me on Spirit Airlines, right? When somebody else was paying. When somebody else was paying.
+
+[26:29] They're like, yeah, just book your flight, whatever you want. She could have flown me first class on like a real airline. Like, you know what I mean? It wouldn't have mattered. They wouldn't have blinked.
+
+[26:42] She spent she sent me Spirit back when, like, and I sat next to a woman who had a fake service dog that was like all over like I was like, what the hell? Like Spirit's the one where they'd know it was fake. Because she told me. Oh, she told you. She's like, you just say it's a service dog, and if they argue, you sue them.
+
+[27:01] I'm like, alright. And the dog didn't the dog run to take your seat. Dog, yeah. I was like, I was like, uh I was like, why am I here? Why does this exist?
+
+[27:10] And the only reason she did if Nastasia had been going with me on that trip, which she was supposed to, we would have had nice flights. We would have had nice flights. She's like, I don't know why. Oh, I don't know why I got that flight. Because you hate me.
+
+[27:22] No, that was a real dumb move. Oh. Okay. Anyway. Uh we have a question in from Gordon.
+
+[27:29] Uh I've heard Dave talk glowingly uh about squid-based Japanese fish sauce uh ishiri. Not that they're not all squid-based. Some of these shoes that are uh they're all from Ishikawa, uh, some are mackerel based, but the one that I happen to like is not just squid, but they use the squid bodies is the squid guts and the squid blood, and it's uh delicious. Anyway, uh I've heard him talk about it, a shiri many times on the podcast. I've been trying to find a way to buy it, and I am stumped.
+
+[27:53] Dave, is there any way for me to get my hands on this stuff? I'm a regular Joe consumer, not a restaurant or slash business in the US Seattle. Thanks. Okay. So um there is a store in that I have not tasted this one.
+
+[28:07] Uh, but there's a Japanese fish sauce. I don't know what it's made out of. It's not one that I've tried, but it's a Japanese style fish sauce. Uh that the Courti Brothers, uh C O R T I Brothers.com, they sell it. They call it uh Shaturu S-H-O-T-T-U-R-U, but I've never tried it, so I can't really say much about it.
+
+[28:25] I will say that the the company that used to bring in the two my two favorite Japanese fish sauces. The one is uh Ishiri, which is fantastic. Although I've tried some ashiries that I didn't like as much. So, you know, uh this particular one, I don't even know if they carry any more of they carry one that looks similar to it. Um and the other my other favorite fish sauce is is Ayu, uh Ay U, which is a Japanese freshwater fish, um, typically served like you know, grilled on skewers to look like it's swimming.
+
+[28:54] We had that when we were in Japan. Uh that fish sauce is incredibly delicious. Um it's Mutual Trading Company. Now, there's a New York Mutual Trading Company. There's they have branches all over the country.
+
+[29:06] There's a New York Mutual Trading Company that has a um that has a uh a showroom here in New York. I called them and they don't have stock on the IU and they don't have a PO in for it, and they're out of Ishiri now, and they're not gonna get it back in until April. However, the Los Angeles uh one, the Los Angeles Mutual Trading uh Company, they might have it. Uh, because I asked and and the woman said that they have entirely different systems, and so they might have it in stock. Uh so I would I didn't have a chance to call them um because I was on my way out and they were just opening as I was leaving the house, uh, you know, because I'm on New York time and they're in LA time.
+
+[29:45] So I would call Los Angeles Mutual Trading. Uh they have a showroom in Los Angeles, so they might be willing to send it to the showroom and then ship it to you from there. But just so you know, the IU fish sauce, which I highly, highly, highly recommend. Their uh stock number on that is 1604, and the Ashiri, which looks similar to the one that they used to carry, but might not be the exact brand. I mean, I can't read any kanji on it, is item number two zero three four zero uh on the mutual trading company.
+
+[30:15] But check the LA branch and they might ship it to Seattle out of their Los Angeles showroom. Anyway. Um you even you like those fish sauces, Nastasia. They tasted good. Yeah, they're good.
+
+[30:26] Um a question in from uh UM. I'm assuming that's UM and not um, right? Yeah. That'd be an amazing name. Um what's your name?
+
+[30:38] Um Towards the end of last week's cooking issues, uh what's two weeks ago now. Dave started talking about collagen and meat texture. I find this topic fascinating and would like to add my vote to have him speak more on the topic. I of course want to hear more about the new bar, seeing as Booker Dax was my favorite bar, and I felt dejected and alone since it closed. Uh thanks for the show, UM.
+
+[31:00] Well, uh the we're at the same place with that with the dang bar, figuring out a new place to open. I never thought I knew it was hard to find a space in New York City, in you know, in the in the area that I want to, but I didn't know kind of how hard it was gonna be. Like it's frustrating that you literally have people who are willing to pay for something and know space to put it into. It's so frustrating. New York is such a pain in the butt.
+
+[31:20] Maybe you should not look outside of East Village. Like where? I don't know. Like where? Like what neighborhood would you go to for a bar?
+
+[31:27] Only Hell's Kitchen. Oh, yeah. Like this is not a Hell's Kitchen kind of a bar. I know. Nastasia frequents a bar called the GAF.
+
+[31:35] The GAF. The GAF. Sounds like a college bar. You would be right. It is, except for there's no college students in that area.
+
+[31:42] So what it is is reaching recent college grads. Or really old ones that wish they were still in college. Wow, that's rough. It's not a finance pro bar, though, right? You used to.
+
+[31:53] I used to a lot. But it's not a finance pro bar. No, no. Just losers. Those are my favorite kind of bars.
+
+[31:58] Do you ever go to my you ever go to my old bar, the Holland? No. You gotta go to see I I want to know whether I I want to know whether it's still good. It's frightening to look into the Holland. Super frightening, but super friendly, at least it, you know, it was a decade ago when I used to go, decade and a half now.
+
+[32:12] Uh anyway, so we're looking we're looking for that. As for collagen, I mentioned it uh briefly, um, and I'm gonna mention it in uh in regards to another question that we have. But I'm uh I've been doing a lot of research on um muscle structure, texture, and taste for the upcoming book. And um it so and I think I mentioned this briefly on the air like a couple weeks ago, is that um everyone always says, Oh, the collagen in meat is what makes it tough, right? You've heard that a million times, Stas, right?
+
+[32:42] Yes. Yeah. But you know, it kind of if you don't think about it, you're thinking more about like connective tissue you can see, aren't you? Most of the time, Sas. Yeah.
+
+[32:50] But it's not that at all. It's like every muscle has uh three basic layers of connective tissue. They have the the silver skin, which goes around the whole muscle, and that you take off, right? Then they have the um connective tissue that goes around each individual muscle fiber, right? And both of those things are pretty constant.
+
+[33:10] The one because you take it off, and the other one because mu like different muscle fibers, the you know, the the uh the amount of uh connective tissue around the individual fibers varies but doesn't vary, and the cross links in it vary, but don't vary that much as much from muscle to muscle. What does vary quite a bit is that is the intermediate uh kind of connective tissue which is around what's called I don't know how it's pronounced but I'm gonna say the par uh paramycium right and so that's the individual bundles what paramycium now paramycium is the protozoan animal and paramycium like although I assume that because it's myofibral uh is the is the muscle thing I assume it's myo like myosin like muscle but it's like um so the paramycium is the is the connective tissue that goes around uh the bundles of muscle fibers and so when you cut across a piece of meat and you look at it and it looks like little columns you know I'm talking about styles right the grain uh it's the actual connective tissue that surrounds that uh grain and that connective tissue that collagen is extremely variant between different muscle types right and so you have very weak uh slash you know lower amounts of total um uh paramycial collagen in let's say a tender piece of meat versus a a non-tender uh you know piece of meat and so it's breaking down that collagen which is uh important and so part of what I'm gonna be looking at when I'm doing the book is um kind of different ways to mitigate the effect of um the uh paramycium's uh collagen on it and that's why I said before that while like a lot of people's studies on the effects of uh salting or of marination or of various different things um take into account uh some effects like for instance if you're doing studies for marination or salting on chicken breast chicken breast has a very different um structure for the you know the um the intramuscular connective tissue than does uh chuck meat and so what I want to look at is can and I've always been an advocate like I said a couple weeks ago for uh not salting meat uh if it's gonna be eaten a eaten like a steak and B cooked for a long time because of the firm texture but this might all get overridden because most of my tests all of my tests were on relatively tender cuts of meat and so what I want to look at is the effect of marination and salt penetration on meats that have very large amounts of um uh I don't know how you call collagen collagen in the paramycium because maybe if you break those down in the larger grain things you can actually have a larger effect on those pieces of meat than you would in something that has uh like a a finer structure of uh muscle bundles anyway so that's what I'm looking uh at in collagen uh right now but I have no results to report back but I better soon or my editor's gonna tear my freaking head off. I have to finish with all of my research soon. So I I'm doing these like parallel researches Nastasia on one on temperatures and techniques in terms of uh with my physics modeling and then on uh marination salting structure and collagen structure on the other so I'm working on those two kind of things simultaneously but they better in a couple of months end up in a book or I'm hosed. Hosed people hosed.
+
+[36:38] Also on the subject uh the people are asking me all questions about stuff I'm researching which is lucky. Eric writes it about grass fed beef I recently bought a quarter share of grass-fed beef from a local rancher. Should have bought it from Hearst Ranch grass-fed grass-fed beef abattoir. Unfortunately, it tastes very strongly of that gamey off flavor that grass-fed bees so often seems to have. Vegan face, Nastasi.
+
+[36:59] Have you ever made your vegan face? Oh my god. I I hate to go off on a tangent, but I love going off on tangent. You know this. So for some reason, uh I was I don't know why.
+
+[37:09] I think it was because of something that uh I saw on the news this morning. Uh you know, Morning Joe was on. He started talking about Lennon. I don't know why. And they say, so I I went on Wikipedia for a minute.
+
+[37:20] I did, you know, you know, every couple of years, you have to re-up yourself on knowledge that you used to have. So someone's like, Lennon. I'm like, okay, I've forgotten most of the stuff I know about Lennon. So I did a quick week Wikipedia on them. And for those of you that want to know what it's like, I forget her name.
+
+[37:34] I can't believe look it up, Nastasia. Lennon's wife. Lennon's wife. So Lennon's wife, I looked her up, and the face that this lady has in every single picture is Nastasia's standard face when she's looking at you. It's true.
+
+[37:54] Like, it's just her standard, not like her facial features, but just the look in the mouth and the eyes. Is if you want to know what it's like to have Nastasia sitting across the table while you're trying to explain something, or while you're trying to like figure out what's going on in life, that's the look. That's the look. What's her name? Nadesh uh Krupskaya.
+
+[38:20] Yeah? Yeah. Classic, right? Yeah. That look on her face, oh my god.
+
+[38:24] Like that's that one she's smiling, though. If you saw the picture that Nastassi was showing me and said that that that she's smiling, it's like there's one picture I saw of her with Lennon where she has like a pissed-off smile on her face, kind of. But like, like some of the pictures that she has, like that's it's like her suppressed vegan face, I think. Anyways. Hey Dave, actually, before we get to the question, you want to take a quick break?
+
+[38:49] Uh, sure, we'll take a quick break, come back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts: the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The bran, or the roughage, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel.
+
+[39:18] It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's going to grow into a plant. It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed.
+
+[39:43] That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates.
+
+[40:01] It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives that that's what gives that that kind of color to it. Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast.
+
+[40:29] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous-Vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream.
+
+[40:54] All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dundess for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[41:24] For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Holy Stina, what a long break. Yeah, he's got a lot of opinions. What do you think of the word wheat germ? I think it's okay.
+
+[41:45] Because it's delicious, right? But like normally you would hate it. It's just you're you're you're okay with it just because weed germ happens to be good. Like I love adding wheat germ to to pancakes, muffins and all that stuff. Remember, I keep it in the fridge though, that stuff goes rancid.
+
+[42:00] Do you buy the big you don't buy it? Do you buy it? No, I don't buy it. I always have it. I use it a lot though.
+
+[42:05] If you're gonna if you're not gonna use it a lot, you should probably get the smaller container. Um I like that stuff. Uh oh, before I forget, uh Jeff over at Copperworks sent us to the show uh a couple weeks back. I took it home, so you know, Nastasia and Dave never got to try it. But uh Copperworks uh makes this um I think it's called uh it's their whiskey, it's all American malt.
+
+[42:27] It's like they they basically I looked them up on the and Jeff from there sent it. Uh I looked them up on the internet uh and uh I think this the story, and they'll hopefully you know correct me if I'm wrong, is they actually brew a good tasting beer. So not like uh like uh distiller's water or distiller's beer, like a good tasting like malt, like beverage, and then distill that uh and then age it. And uh so he sent us a bottle of that stuff, batch number two. Uh that stuff is delicious.
+
+[42:56] Stuff is delicious. I loved it, and uh my wife loved it, and so we s we were drinking it, and then I wanted to get a bottle from my stepfather because it was his birthday, and but it turns out that that they don't ship to uh they don't ship to New York. So how did we get it? So I gave I gave my stepfather the the bottle that we had drunk through through like a quarter of, and I was like, sorry, wamp wamp, but you're gonna like it. But I I'm gonna I'm gonna buy a bottle because you can anyone who lives around New York can get it, right?
+
+[43:24] You can you can online order it to ship to New Jersey, Connecticut, or uh or Pennsylvania, but whatever. What's going on, Stuart? Yeah, it's whatever. I'm not we're not gonna comment on people's outfits unless it's Santa's little hipster. Yeah, this isn't the Oscars.
+
+[43:38] Come on. Yeah. Oh my god. Anyway, so thanks so much, guys. Thanks, Jeff at Copperworks.
+
+[43:43] That you make a delicious product. Uh and not standard American whiskey tasting, which is what I like. Like they're not doing just another riff on a standard American product. You know what I mean? Yep.
+
+[43:53] It's like not just another bourbon or or uh, you know, it's it's good. Or a fake or a you know, another fake scotch or whatever. It's it's good. It's deli uh not that not that you peep other people are making fake scotch, it's not what I meant. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:03] I think it's a it's a it's an excellent product. Last Nazi is making that face again. Making that sh that shut up face, that uh Lenin's wife face. What's her name? Too hard to say.
+
+[44:11] Just say that you're like you're like half Russia Ukrainian. The only the only words you can say are like prostitute. That's the only way fake breasts. And and feminine hygiene products. Yes.
+
+[44:24] You know all the words for feminine hygiene products in Russian. Yes. And anyway, so um back to the question. Uh so I've uh if you remember back before the break, Eric, uh Eric with a K, by the way, uh, bought uh a quarter uh share of grass fed beef, and it has an off uh flavor that uh he's having a tough time getting rid of. So is there any treatment I can apply to the beef to eliminate or reduce that taste?
+
+[44:48] I've tried heavily seasoned recipes like chili, but still failed to mask the taste. I've got a freezer full of beef out here, so I'd love to be able to enjoy it. Can't wait for the spinz all. Eric. Um I need to know from you to fully answer this question is what muscle cuts you have um cooked and what what you have so far.
+
+[45:07] So the bad news is um the bad news is is that game flavors and off flavors in uh commercially raised meats. So typically uh they they vary animal to animal. So a particular animal like might have a much higher score for uh off flavor or gamey flavor than other animals. Uh that are raised in exactly the same way, in exactly the same uh pastures, and so it's really hard to kind of know. Now, I also need to know exactly what you mean by gamey, right?
+
+[45:41] So a lot of people what they associate gamey flavor with is kind of a a livery taste, right? And that livery taste is often associated, and the literature, by the way, if you've read it, which I don't recommend, because it's it's all over the place. Like, you know, no one seems to agree, and it it's complete it's very confusing, and there's also like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages on it, uh, because people uh care about it. But the only answer in terms of choosing meats is that you can't really know from grass-fed or not whether or not it's gonna have a gamey uh fl or a liver flavor, it's just animal, it's animal to animal. There are effects, right?
+
+[46:17] Like age of the animal, the older an animal is, the more likely it is to have a a liver flavor or an off-flavor or a game gamey flavor. Um certain diets can increase the range, but really you're you're kind of in a crab shoot animal to animal. But the good news, maybe for you, is that it also depends on the exact muscle you're using. So uh for instance, flat iron steak, which is a muscle in the chuck uh portion, the flat iron and chuck in general has a higher proportion of uh muscles that might have that defect, but a muscle, other muscles in the chuck might not have it. So you might have just been unlucky and cooked uh a couple of the muscles, for instance, the the flat iron, uh the infra infraspinatus that uh have a higher gamey livery off flavor than other muscles, and the rest of your muscles might be better.
+
+[47:06] Um I've had it happen also, although I don't think there's been a lot of study on it, but I don't know, eye of round, I've had that happen before. I don't know which muscles you have, what muscles you have left, uh, which ones you've already cooked. So knowledge of which muscles you used might a make you feel a little bit better about the muscles you have left. Uh like I don't know, or I don't know whether you're a uh cook the cook the cheaper ones first so you have the fancy ones for later, or if you're cooking the fancy ones now so you have the cheaper ones later. I just don't know, I don't know how you how you're doing.
+
+[47:35] Now once you know you're in this situation where you already have a cow that has a known kind of, and I'm assuming it's like livery gamey flavor, all that I don't know. See, the interesting thing about grass-fed animals is that you know how Stas, how everyone says, and I've mentioned this on the show too, that everyone says the flavor, I've said it millions of times, the flavor of the uh of the animal is in the fat, right? And so but what people think most of the time, at least me, is that they mean it's in the marbling, right? And so you're gonna have less meat flavor in a less marbled piece of meat, theoretically, right? Because it has less fat in it.
+
+[48:08] It turns out that the fat uh fat in quotes is very, very important, but uh it's a lot of the flavor isn't ha it doesn't have to do with l those kind of lipids that you see as marbling, but rather the lipids that are actually in the cell membranes of the individual cells, because those are the uh the the poofs, the polyunsaturated fas fatty acids that tend to give a lot of the flavor characteristics to a particular animal or not, right? And so um the you know the the the short story is is that yes, that those characteristic flavors can be different in grass-fed, and maybe you don't like those, but they're also variant depending on exactly what they were eating. So you can't just make a category categorical statement on grass-fed versus not. Now, as to your actual question, which I have not answered yet, how do I get rid of that? Uh the the short answer is I don't know.
+
+[48:59] But I'm wondering, and I started looking into it, but I haven't been able to run any tests. And if you have a lot of it, I would recommend um, you know, some some basic tests. I I would think that um if these are oxidation, um it it s some people seem to think that some of these reactions can be oxidation reactions. Um so perhaps an antioxidant might help. Perhaps uh you might be able to shift these aromas uh by shifting these things to a more acidic environment.
+
+[49:28] So actually cooking them or marinating them prior to cooking them in an acidic environment. Like a lot of game people, they recommend uh vinegar soaks and or buttermilk soaks, which are acidic. And so like if the if the you know the old uh wives' tales are to take gamey meats and to do an initial like leech uh of those flavors, either a lot of people do like a quick boil, but I think that's mainly to get rid of rotten parts uh or you know, overly developed parts. Um but like in acids, maybe an acid might help. So I'd look into that, although I don't really understand the mechanism of it.
+
+[50:01] That seems to be what people do over the years to try to mitigate the effect of gaminess. Um Nastasi's like, you've said enough, jerk. Um for one more quick one. One. One of us a lot, but oh man.
+
+[50:18] But I have I have Melissa who has a goat cheese question, which I'm interested in, but maybe I'll talk about that next time. She has a problem with goat cheeses because they uh they kind of harsh her palate. I don't have a problem with goat cheeses, I have a problem with other I'll do this one real quick. But then I have some egg questions I gotta get to too. Oh screw the eggs.
+
+[50:36] They're all my friends. Um, see how Nastasia treats her friends? You see it, people? Uh but I had a lot of good stuff to say about the eggs. Anyway, uh we'll do Melissa real quick.
+
+[50:44] Melissa from Hamilton, Ontario. Uh hello, uh Dave, Nastasia, and Dave. I enjoy foods of all sorts and generally do not have issues when it comes to trying new things. Goat cheese, however, is the main exception. No matter how hard I try, I can't help have a near visceral visceral reaction whenever I eat goat cheese.
+
+[50:59] Uh no matter uh the quality or supposed goat cheesiness. Not only does it taste awful, but it blows out my palate for an extended period of time. My question is do you have any idea why this is happening or what would be causing it? Thanks, love the show, Melissa from Hamilton, Ontario. Uh short answer, no, but I will say this.
+
+[51:16] Um people sometimes have um reactions to specific. I mean, the fact of the matter is is that there are things, uh, you know, many things, fatty acids, for instance, that are different in goat milk and than in other milks. And I'll relate to you a similar experience. And so I've I've come to recognize um specific things that affect my palate. So aged um full fat cheeses undergo uh lipid oxidation, and some of those lipid oxidation products, right, uh affect my palate like in a pretty hardcore way.
+
+[51:51] They make you we d does this happen to you, styles where like taste buds pop, you know what I mean? Like they'll hurt and like pop out. Yeah. So like uh aged full fat cheeses do that to my uh taste buds. I eat them anyway because they're incredibly delicious, but they literally blow out my palate, i.e., my taste buds pop out and like I'm in pain, but I but I eat it anyway.
+
+[52:13] And so, like, for me, if someone says, Is this a full fat cheese and an aged cheese or not? I can eat it and be like, that's full fat cheese. I know because I'm in pain. You know what I mean? If I'm eating it anyway.
+
+[52:23] So, like it's it's very possible that there is some sort of um product in there that you react to uh and you shouldn't be embarrassed. You know what? Like, I hate melon. You don't have to like goat cheese, right, Stas? Exactly.
+
+[52:36] Yeah. I mean, it's if you're generally, I tell my kids, I'm like, you're allowed to have like one or two things that you don't like, but the problem is is when they don't like everything, you know what I mean? And it sounds like you just don't like it. You know what I mean? That's cool.
+
+[52:47] Like if you if you don't like something, I I have, you know, I think everyone's problem with people not liking things is when they don't like it for mental reasons. You know what I mean? Is when you like the theory of something bothers you. But it doesn't sound like the theory of goat cheese bothers you. It sounds like actual goat cheese bothers you.
+
+[53:03] In which case, they're clear of that. What do you think, Dave? Uh, yeah, go with your gut. Yeah. All right.
+
+[53:08] So I had some questions on eggs, which I'm not going to get to, about like freshness of eggs and then why we refrigerate them versus uh not. And I had a huge rant I was going to go off onto on eggs that we don't have the time for it. Do we have even a little bit left? No, because I know eggs are like your thing. No, no, not for that, but Scott wrote in about his slushing machine.
+
+[53:25] Do I have time for a quick slushing machine question? No, I'm sorry, we're gonna look at that. All right, so Scott, next week I'll talk to you about uh bricks and uh slushy machine, but I'll give you a short short, I'll give you the short of it now on the way out. He had a question he didn't want to ruin his slushy machine. Uh you want your uh slushy cocktails if you want to do bar style and not like crappy daiquiri, which are only like 7% alcohol.
+
+[53:47] When I'm doing them, they're between 14 and 15% alcohol, uh, 85 grams per liter of sugar and 0.6 to 0.9 uh percent acidity. Boom, booya. Use those as a ratio. We'll talk more about it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[54:16] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[54:43] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 and Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:59] Good. I like love the fact that there's people out there who like imagine like why you are the hammer, and all they need to do now is look at Lennon's wife's picture. I know. And they know. Did you see someone uh wrote in and said that we should just make t-shirts with Lennon's wife's.
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+[1:12] Yeah, we made t-shirts, and you people don't buy them. You people. What was her name again? Lennon's wife? No one can remember because if Nastasia can't remember, then how am I supposed to remember?
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+[1:21] Like Nastasia is like half Russo Ukrainian, like you know, a potent self-hating mix there. And uh yeah, potent. And uh, of course, as usual, we got Dave in the booth. How are you doing? Good, how are you?
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+[1:32] Doing all right. So am I supposed to I have a piece of paper on our desk, and it says pre-roll ad, but since we've already rolled, perhaps I can post pre-roll. You want to post pre-roll this? Yeah, yeah, that's how we do. While you're listening to the post-pre-roll, call in all of your questions, cooking or not, you know, preferably cooking related questions, two seven one eight four nine seven.
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+[1:54] Wait, 718497-2128. Is that right? Yeah, that's it. 7184972128. It's like I don't even actually think about it.
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+[2:01] It's almost like, you know, uh, it just kind of like pops out. We got one. What a caller? Yeah. Heritage Radio Network.
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+[2:08] Oh, nice. All right. Well, I'll do the pre-roll while I figure that out. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com.
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+[2:20] All right, caller, you're on the air. I think. Did we losing? Dave? Caller.
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+[2:26] Caller, you're on the air. Caller. Hey, how you doing? Hey, uh, so I am a cook uh in uh New Orleans, and I uh recently did a uh pop-up with ramen. Um and the issue that I had is uh so I I followed the recipe uh basically of uh Ivan Raman's book.
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+[2:49] Right. And uh uh floured the noodles with cornstarch. Um, but after doing like a bunch of batches, uh on the sides of the like the wire basket, the cornstarch started to build up and like form this like you know, paste. Yeah, yeah, I bet it would. Uh I was wondering if you had any like suggestions on uh how to avoid that.
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+[3:12] Well, okay, so give me the exact give me the exact procedure. You're telling you you're taking like the noodle uh what like and you're dusting them. What's the point again of dusting them in the cornstarch? Just give them a little bit of a like gluey outside? Or is it just a separation thing?
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+[3:25] So I'm hand making the noodles um and I don't want them to stick, because uh if I don't use any cornstarch, then they stick. Right. And so when I go to uh break them up in the water with chopsticks, they sort of crumble into short little pieces. Yeah, yes. Uh and so the cornstarch helps to avoid that problem, but then, you know, once I do a bunch of batches that you know sticks to the wire uh basket.
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+[3:49] How much uh kind of how much par dehydration do they go through before the uh the uh before you boil them? How much what? How much like how long have they been sitting out like before you boil them? In other words, like are they dried sufficiently where you could sit there and do like a pre-tap on like uh on like a drying rack where you could just put your like the load on a drying rack and go pop pap pap on on a sheet tray and like knock off the excess cornstarch? Or do you already do that or what?
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+[4:13] I might be able to do that. Um yeah, so I I just made them day of uh so that they'd be fresh. Um so they basically just sat you know in the cornstarch that I dusted them in. Right. So I mean the the the other issue is is that like you if you're getting buildup on the basket, are like how are you loading?
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+[4:30] Are you loading direct into the water or are you loading into baskets and dropping baskets? Uh directly into the water. Yeah, okay. So what you're getting is just straight boil off building up on the sides of the baskets. What about on the uh on the external sides of the pot?
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+[4:42] Like what do you what are you cooking them in? What kind of what are you doing? You don't have a pasta maker, right? I mean like a pasta a pasta boiler. And then um dusting them with cornstarch and then No, no, I'm I meant I meant the cooking.
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+[4:55] You don't have like a pasta, but you're not using like a like a modified pasta deep fryer. You know what I'm talking about? Those pasta boilers? Uh no, it's just uh it's just like uh it's a um pot with salted water. Yeah, yeah.
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+[5:07] So like uh and how often are you skimming the stuff off the top? Uh not not very often. Uh I mean I yeah, I mean like i like w once you have like free cornstarch in the system, like the stuff's going to like like boil around. Because remember, like it like uh it's going to it's gonna do that. So I would try to knock off the stuff on the outside, right?
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+[5:29] And I would skim like fairly often. So like like let's say you like normally, not normally, but if you're if you're fortunate enough to have an actual like pasta cooker, right? Uh huh it's got like a water in and then like a f like a drain off so that you can take the scum off the top. It like basically automatically de-starches the water because your water's always gonna get starchier and starchier and starchier, you know what I mean? Like as you go.
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+[5:58] And so um, and I've never owned one. I've used my regular deep fryer as a pasta cooker before. Okay, but um it doesn't have like any of the fancy stuff. I've never owned a real one. Do you ever used uh Nastash?
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+[6:11] Ever seen like Mark used to have one of the does he have does he have those now? Does he have like the fancy like like does he have the fat fancy ones that look like deep fryers for the pasta boiling? Uh not now. But they're going to? Is that how the way they're gonna do it?
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+[6:24] Or how are they finishing? Custom. Of course. Mo custom's very fancy. For we're talking about pasta flyer, Mark Ladner's new uh new venture.
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+[6:30] When's that opening size? Two weeks. Two weeks. Uh so you're gonna you're gonna invite me to anything, any opening? All right.
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+[6:36] We'll talk about it on the air. So like I would say uh I would skim more often. I would try to knock the cornstarch off. The problem is is that I there's very few things I hate worse than trying to get uh um cooked starch off of uh off of fry baskets. Um yeah, it's uh it's uh painful process.
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+[6:55] Oh yeah, that's definitely something that you want to hire somebody else to do if you can. Like you know what I mean. Um trying to think if there's anything else. Like any free starch like that is going to uh is gonna do that. That's why I was asking kind of um like what level of dryness they are when they when they get out.
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+[7:12] Like I know like I do the same thing. If you can keep them s if you can keep the noodles separated for even a couple of minutes before they go into like larger things, like I d I I can't picture your layout. You can use less stuff to coat them. You know what I mean? Like the the faster they have to touch each other, the you know, the more of uh of insurance you need on the outside.
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+[7:32] But then remember like what what we when you put the coating on the outside, like the coating is absorbing some of the moisture from the outside of the pasta, almost acting like an instant dehydration on the on the surface of the of the noodle. Uh so like after you know, even like 30 minutes, you should be able to like wrap a tap tap like prior to service to try to knock stuff off of it. And then you know, because like you know, I know people like fresh pasta makers, some pasta makers for instance use cornstarch on larger not cornstarch, corn meal on larger things like ravioli, and like when they sell them to you, they're swimming in freaking uh um, you know, cornmeal. And so then, you know, it's a question of always getting it off. But like how are you storing it?
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+[8:15] Are you storing them in like are you are you pre-portioning them and then storing them in like uh in like fish tubs? Like what are you doing? Right, just uh yeah, I had them pre-portioned, uh just yeah, an electrion. And are you getting any clumping problems at all now? Uh no, not not as far as like uh I guess, you know, maybe it's like too much cornstarch, but there's no clumping issue.
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+[8:36] Yeah, well, so like the good news is you have no clumping issues. So uh so what I would do is just keep dialing it back until you start having issues. And the more you dial back the cornstarch in the finished thing, like the the less often you're gonna have to clean that disgusting stuff off the uh outside of the uh uh of the baskets. I don't know if there's anything that'll just straight eat that. Like, you know, you like you know, I I tend not to keep around the um around my place like tons of super caustic things.
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+[8:59] But like I know like at the French culinary, like at night, like those guys would just dip everything in like hyper disgusting caustic chemicals to like burn everything off of everything. Um I'm not saying I recommend that because I don't. And also, like it's not efficient to like self-clean that stuff off of things because you soak up a lot of energy and like uh I've discovered that aluminum pans are ruined by self-cleaning. Did you know that? Uh no, I didn't know that.
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+[9:28] Yeah. You throw an aluminum like a sheet pan into a uh into a self-cleaning oven and it just wipes the temper. It cleans it because like I hate cleaning, I hate cleaning everything. But like I super hate cleaning. A couple things I hate cleaning are fryer baskets, and I hate them.
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+[9:43] And I I hate cleaning off uh I hate cleaning off like sheet trays that have had like oily crap baked into them like over the course of a whole like you know, night. Hate it. Yeah. And so like I always thought, well, maybe I can just burn that, and you know, I don't know if your fry baskets have the rubber on them, but if you have the ones that don't have rubber, like theoretically you can self-clean. I don't know what it'll do to the chrome coating on it, but um if it's chrome coated as supposed to you know how some are actually like they're supposed to all be stainless steel, but some of them aren't really.
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+[10:09] Do you ever notice that? Like some of them aren't really. Yeah, you have uh the ones I have I have the rubber uh things on the handles. Yeah, yeah. So you can't do any of that stuff that stuff anyway.
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+[10:18] But yeah, I don't know whether like uh I don't know whether some sort of hardcore oven cleaner will get that stuff off, because that stuff's more effective, I think, on fats and proteins um than on starch. I don't know. Okay. Anyway. Are there any other like uh starches that might work b any better?
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+[10:34] They're all gonna clump up on you. You know what I mean? Like uh I'm uh you know, it depends on what you're gonna, you know, the the good thing, good news about cornstarch is is that it's freaking cheap. You know what I mean? Right.
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+[10:44] I mean, if you want to if you want to stay like wheat on wheat crime, you can use pure wheat starch. You know what I mean? Okay. Um and that way, you know, you're you know, you only have one grain in that, and so you know, one less allergen to worry about. Um but um you know it it depends.
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+[11:02] You're not looking for functionality, right? Like you're not i it's not a functional aspect of the noodle. Like you're not looking for it to have like a like a velveted texture on the outside, right? Right, it's just it's just like uh yeah, some people are complaining that uh, you know, it was kind of gummy, and then I checked the thing and it was sure enough, you know, it was taken on there. Yeah, yeah.
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+[11:23] So I mean like you like uh I mean it just I would just try to use less of it. I don't think any other particular starch is gonna change the the because it's not you're not looking for a particular quality of the starch. Like if you want a starch like I really like potato starch a lot, but that's in situations where like I'm frying or crisping things up and I want the specific like swelling capacity of potato starch. You don't care. Okay.
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+[11:45] You know what I mean? You're just trying to separate stuff off. So you know, if you can afford the extra cost, try wheat starch, that way it's just one less thing to worry about. Uh but cornstarch is nice and cheap. Okay.
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+[11:56] Don't you hate the way cornstarch feels? Yes. Yeah, right. Nastasia hates, I hate the way cornstarch feels, that squeaky feel. It doesn't bother you?
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+[12:03] It bothers me. The noise that cornstarch makes when you're when you're taking it out when you lift it out of the thing and you squeeze the box and you squeeze that cornstarch box, that freaking noise, man. I hate that noise. Man. Uh all right, well good luck with it.
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+[12:16] Let us know how it works out. Alright, thank you. Um clumping issues, wasn't that the uh working title for this show? It was years ago. We were like, but you know, then we it's not just clumping, it's not the only thing we're worried about.
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+[12:26] We're worried about, you know, anti-clumping. So uh so Nastasia, you'll enjoy this. On the way here, I was listening to all like not listening, my iPhone decided to play for me all the stuff that I listen to that you hate. Like like Kenny Rogers, you hate it when Kenny Rogers comes on. I don't mind Kenny Rogers.
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+[12:43] No, because you hate my reaction to it. Yeah. Like Cowder of the County came on. You hate when I talk about Coward of the County. And then Smokey Robinson came on, and you hate when I listen to Smokey Robinson because I like his lyrics.
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+[12:55] It's like all the stuff that you hate. I like the music. I hate listening it to it with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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+[13:01] It's it's more me you hate than the music. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah, that's about right. You want to take another call?
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+[13:05] Uh yeah, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh man fine from Mystery. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. Uh I just wanted to weigh in.
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+[13:13] You were talking about sort of uh your the cookbook, low temp and the finishing steps, right? And uh and I wanted to weigh in and just say that I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on like some of the uh the best the best way is to finish uh low temp cooked product because I've had a circulator for a couple years now, and some things I get uh really great results with. Uh and then sometimes I have sort of uh disappointing results. So I mean, well it's it's yeah, it's a big I mean it's what I'm actually working on right now a lot. Uh like on Sunday I ran a bunch of tests and I'm trying to do like a lot of like uh tests without the Sears all just like because so I can have things for people to do like without the the Searsol or without anything that's hardcore.
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+[13:59] I'm trying to like dehardcore everything uh to see whether I can get good um good results, but like low temperature cooking almost always fails in the finishing step, don't you think? I think that's right. Um because especially with like steaks, I find, and you were talking about sort of dropping down the temperature before you do the finishing step. Yep. Uh and that sort of uh sort of clarified things in my mind because I think that's sort of where I was falling for.
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+[14:25] Yeah, so now now what I've been doing, so I've been testing recently. Now a lot depends on on like let's say you're gonna pan fren this is what I've been testing recently. Let's say you're gonna pan finish the steak, okay? Uh and let's say you're going to uh you you choose like I'm gonna do see here's the thing. If if you pre-sear now, this is the argument that I have all the time with people.
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+[14:47] Um if you pre-sear the meat versus post-sear the meat, now, um, or both. I always I usually recommend both. And other people, uh, you know, like Kenji, for instance, is like it doesn't matter. But here's the thing. It does matter because the if you do not pre-sear your meat, then you're gonna have to sear it much longer afterwards to get the same level of crust.
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+[15:10] So then the question that I have to whoever is making the you know the steak is what level of crust do you want? If you're a crust fiend, if you need like a real thick, heavy char on the outside of a piece of meat, well, that can really only be attained in a pan with copious, like, you know, like a a good eighth inch of oil at the bottom. You take it up to like, you know, uh basically 360, 400 deep fry temperature, and then the the trick with this is you can actually do it without making a lot of smoke. I've been testing uh pan frying, and the trick is that you bring the whole pan up relatively slowly to deep fryer temperature, which is like 365 and that rich with the with the layer of oil in it. Then when you put the meat into sear, you crank the hell out of it as high as it'll go so that you maintain your heat input at that high level.
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+[16:01] Like that's the trick, right? It doesn't actually help you to have your oil catch on fire and smoke. What you really need to do is bring it up to the temperature where it's searing and then hold it there as best as you can. Um so anyway, so like in that kind of a regime, in order to get a good crust on a steak, you really need to do um three minutes. So you do like one and a half, flip, one and a half, do that twice, three minutes, and you can get a good crust.
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+[16:27] Problem is if you do that afterwards, um you are gonna overcook the meat, like pretty much straight up. You're gonna overcook the meat. And so if you pre-sear it, you can cut down that post sear to like a minute on a side or a minute and a half on a side, and you're not going to overcook the meat. And when you do a pre-sear, your meat's at fridge temperature. It's at like five degrees Celsius.
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+[16:48] And so there's very little overcook on a on a pre-sear. Now, you know, it it this is something that's been borne out by like, you know, many, many trials that I ran back when I was cooking at the French Co Winter Institute, but I'm, you know, I'm testing it more now for kind of home people. The problem is is that uh even I don't pre-sear meat all the time because and I probably shouldn't say this, I'm like uh intensely lazy, and if and you're not supposed to do this because they're not designed for it, but a lot of times I will just take the meat as it comes in the pack, right? Because I'm buying pre-pack cut big steaks, like like high like a lot of very nice steaks that are cut by you know, high high-end producers of like things like the Pimontesi beef or these things come like, you know, pre-portioned packed in the thick steaks. And I've cooked directly in those.
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+[17:37] You can't pre-sear if you don't take it out of the pack. You know what I mean? Uh but I should I I really shouldn't do that and I shouldn't recommend doing that. But anyway, but i so I do a lot of work without the pre-searing, but pre-searing can help to not overcook on the postsear. But my current method is to instead of dropping the circulator five degrees, which is what I used to do, and letting it sit for 40 minutes, is I'd pull it directly out a couple minutes before I'm gonna serve it, and I put it into a pot of uh running tap water.
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+[18:05] So I'll just put the pot in the sink, turn the tap water on, just turn it on enough so that it's flowing constantly, and throw the meat into that, depending on how long you're gonna sear, between two and four minutes, depending on on how many times you're gonna sear it. You could take it up to five minutes, and that just really pushes the outside temperature of the meat down without really affecting the core very much. And then if you go and sear right away, you know, you're one and a half, one and a half, or if you need to, one and a half, one and a half, one and a half, one and a half, you're not overcooking nearly as much of the meat, and the integrated temperature of the meat across the whole piece ends up being higher than it would have been if you had just dropped the entire piece of meat five degrees, if that makes sense. So, like these are the kind of like finishing like things I'm trying to work on and trying to make them as easy as I can for like working at home. But uh I had uh a fail, a couple failed experiments this weekend.
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+[18:58] I just I'm uh working on like a lot of the things I want to work on for home are like uh what I consider like party tricks. So like they're like uh I'm gonna have like an everyday section, which is gonna have you like steaks, which is basically one of the things that I do like on an everyday basis. But then more like um, you know, when you're gonna have like a large group over or for large gatherings, like if you want to do like if you want to do fried chicken, I actually do low temp my fried chicken ahead of time so that I can also make onion rings and french fries without having to change the temperature of the oil constantly, right? Uh and I can also have different sizes of chicken pieces and not worry about whether or not I'm putting in a bunch of wings with the with a bunch of breasts because they're already pre-cooked. So you know there's gonna be that section, but I also want like kind of like more party party tricks like whole fish or um things like that.
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+[19:49] So I had I did a whole fish like a three a three pound red snapper um and trying to figure out like the right time temperature for it. But then I I I was worried about the finishing. So like normally what I would do is heat up a big vat of oil and then like set up this like incredibly dangerous like uh fry tray, crank it and then do like ladle fry for like you know five minutes. And I tried to do a home version of that and not only did it not get as crispy as I wanted, like I was like I'm not gonna recommend that someone at home sit here with a ladle and ladle like you know fry oil everywhere like in a in a hot kitchen because like A it's gonna freak a lot of people out and B like someone's gonna get burnt and blame me for it. You know what I mean?
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+[20:34] Like really burnt. And so like I'm trying to figure out like a good way to like a good way to f to reliably finish a whole fish. Like that's something I'm interested in working on. Had another failed experiment where uh so I I bought like just a chuck steak, you know I'm talking about like the thick chuck steaks where they bone out the the uh the seven they bone out the the chuck and they put it back together into a a roast and I'm cutting into a steak like two two inches thick. And then uh I I cooked it for a day.
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+[21:04] I lucked out I didn't get a livery flavoring one, but I wanted to get it kind of tender. Maybe when I'm in a little long, like I probably should have done it like 18 hours instead of 24 hours. And I had a deep sear on, I crusted off. But um yeah, people ended up and it but uh the thing is I served it next to a legit ribeye, right? And people were like, the ribeye is better.
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+[21:24] I was like, oh well, they're like, you know, I would have liked the other one had you not given me the the ribeye, but I obviously I like the ribeye better. And I was like, um, so you can't you can't win. Like I'm trying to win somehow Anastasia, and you can't you can't win. So like I was like, oh, this giant piece of like chuck is like a third of the price of the ribeye. Um and you know what?
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+[21:44] I took something that's a third of the price of the ribeye, and I maybe made it 80% as good, but that's not like the same as as good as. So I don't know. These are the kinds of things I'm trying to work out in the in the book, like where I where I hit and what I do. You know what one of the problems low temping uh piece of meat like that, going back to collagen, which we were talking about for the past couple of shows, is that um in a multi-muscle piece of uh meat that doesn't have bones in it, you actually have um the um the outside, the silver skinny pieces that surround each muscle, you know, the epimycium. You have that in there, and that stuff does not dissolve well low temp, and so it doesn't it like feels weird.
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+[22:23] You know what I'm talking about stringy styles? Like it's like it's cooked, it's tender, but it's like stringy. I don't know. These are things I'm working on. So yeah, finishing.
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+[22:29] Any any suggestions or ideas people have, uh, I welcome them because uh, you know, I gotta test them. Do you have any sugg are you still there? Do you have any suggestions or things I should test out? Uh I mean I'm still here, but I don't. I mean, I think I unfortunately I think deep frying is just uh beyond the pale for most people.
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+[22:47] Uh anything that involves like a lot of oil or uh you know a lot of sort of splashing a lot of hot oil at the end seems uh seems like a tall order for people. Yeah, I know. It's a shame because deep frying is such a freaking good technique because it hits all sides of the meat at once. Like I might, yeah, you know, it's it's a pain. Deep frying is so like such a good technique.
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+[23:12] As I've said many times on the show, it it it like is God's cooking technique. It's like it's like it's dry, it's instantaneous, very high watt density, dry-ish heat that crisps stuff really quickly. You know what I mean? It's such a good technique, but it's such a pain for most people. So yeah, I'm trying to think of non-frying.
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+[23:31] But the other thing is like, what are you gonna do? Like I remember years ago I saw, you know, one of the early books that Eric Repair had come out with. I saw him give a talk at Barnes and Noble. This is long, long, long time ago. Uh I don't even think I was working at the French culinary yet, or you know, maybe I had just started.
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+[23:46] And uh he was like, you know, someone was asking him like uh recommendations for broiling fish, right? And he says, I don't write recipes for home people to broil fish because their broilers suck so hard that it would make me cry to have them boil the broil fish in their house. So he just doesn't write recipes for it. And so like anytime I'm thinking, well, I could try to like finish something in a broiler, I think back to like a crying Eric Repair, and I'm like, you know, oh man, you know, I don't want to make I don't want to write recipes that make Eric Repair cry. You know what I mean?
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+[24:20] That's right. Yeah. Seems like a very nice guy. Yeah, you know, and plus like it like anytime someone's crying because I've produced something of low quality, it just makes me so sad. You know, I'm just makes me so sad.
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+[24:30] Oh, speaking of quality though. I mean legit. I like it because of Walmart when I'm actually sad. But here's the uh, you know, the um I've been working on fish temperatures, which is another thing people can chime in on. So I've been pushing my fish temperatures consistently a little bit higher than I would have, let's say, five or six years ago, because uh I'm trying to get out of the polarizing range of fish cooking temperatures, which are those like kind of ultra low temperatures like in the high 40s.
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+[24:57] Um but the problem is is that uh with the exception of stripers, which I cook at a higher temperature, like I'm cooking like this red snapper, for instance, at a too low a temperature to pasteurize it. And so I have to keep all my cook steps down to under my, you know, under my window of um of safety. And so it's kind of an interesting, it's an interesting situation. So if like you know, I cook the snapper for an hour and a half at a temperature that's not a pasteurization temperature, not a growth temperature, but it's not a pasteurization temperature either. Uh and a lot of the fish has stayed in a kind of uh in a bad zone for a while.
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+[25:39] Uh so you're hoping you can kill some of that stuff in the post-finish. This is all the stuff I'm wrestling with right now, wrestling with. You don't want to give someone an unsafe recipe unless you say, hey, PS, this is an unsafe recipe. You know what I mean? But anyway, there's always gonna be someone like, Why'd you give me why'd you give me an unsafe recipe?
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+[25:57] Because that's the way I cook it at home. You know what I mean? Stas just doesn't care. Oh, uh anyway, so I'll work on it. If you have any suggestions, call back in.
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+[26:05] Uh, you know, I was good to talk to you. Oh, we have a okay, cool. We have a follow-up from last week. Jeffrey writes in about fish sauce. Uh remember, we were looking for the Japanese fish sauces, which are awesome.
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+[26:16] And I suggested mutual Trading Company. Uh Jeffrey called said, I called the mutual Trading Company in Los Angeles. I'm not far from there and wanted to ask about the showroom. They do have Ishiri fish sauce at 760 a bottle in stock, but are out of stock on the IU at 1420 a bottle. They should have it by late March, and they can ship US UPS ground out of state.
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+[26:29] I think the person who was asking was in Seattle and called 213. This is the uh mutual trading. Uh 213 uh 626 9458. And if you've never had these Japanese fish sauces, you must go and purchase them right now. Uh Scott wrote in about um uh slushy machines.
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+[26:54] Touched on it very briefly uh last uh week, but I'll go through the whole question now. Fan of liquid intelligence and so far enjoying cooking issues, just wait, you won't keep listening and you won't. Uh my issue is that every source I can find says the minimum sugar content of a slush machine drink uh should be 12 bricks. But for some drinks, that's just way too sweet. I don't have the capability to push my machine to the limit because it's for personal use.
+
+[27:16] I want it, it's my baby, and I don't want to break it. So for those of you that don't know what's going on here, um when you let's say you're doing a non-alcoholic drink, then you know you have to have a certain amount of sugar in the drink, otherwise it's gonna freeze solid. And if your slushing machine freezes solid, the dasher, which is the spinning, you know, spinning doodle inside of the ice cream thing, can seize up. And if it seizes up, you can burn out your motor. And even if you don't seize it up, but your um, you know, it's the mixture is too stiff, it can put the motor under uh a lot of excess strain.
+
+[27:50] So manufacturers of slushy machines tend to recommend that you have a certain minimum amount of sugar in a mix so that you don't um so that you don't mess up the m mess up the machine. Now the problem here is well we'll we'll get it, I'll get into the I'll get into the rest. Um that's that's what the the crux of the matter is is that you don't want to have uh um a drink in there that freezes so solid that it ruins the machine. Okay, so then back to the question. My theory is that I can trade out some of that twelve bricks for higher alcohol content and still get a good slush that doesn't risk machine failure.
+
+[28:23] Uh no one online has addressed this specifically, uh, and I'm always skeptical of bars giving away their exact machine recipe to the local newspaper for all sorts of reasons that could be inaccurate and cost me a machine. Yeah, people give out wrong recipes all the time. Most of the time I don't think it's uh malice. Do you styles when chefs give out bad recipes? Do you think it's I think it's just they don't bother really converting their restaurant recipe to a home recipe in a way that makes sense.
+
+[28:49] I think that's mainly what it is, right? Anyway. I mean, I guess sometimes. There I you know what, back in the day, like back in the day, I think chefs always used to hold something back from recipes so that you couldn't exactly duplicate what they're doing, but I think that's kind of a thing of the past. I don't really feel that anymore.
+
+[29:05] Maybe maybe I'm wrong. Uh my question is, uh, how much alcohol do I need to compensate for a given amount of bricks reduction to make a slush? If there's no good answer, is there a way to figure out by experimentation without risking my machine? I do a lot of frozen baggy experiments, but I don't see how these uh relate to the machine. They do relate, in fact.
+
+[29:23] They do relate. If you do a test in a frozen baggie, you can tech the texture of it uh just by putting it in your freezer. Like a regular home freezer that gets down to about minus 20, somewhere around minus 20, negative four Celsius. Um sorry, negative four Fahrenheit minus twenty Celsius in that range, is a pretty good approximation of what the texture of your frozen drink is gonna be like in a machine. But um so it's not a bad approximation.
+
+[29:50] It's not perfect, but it's not bad. Or do you have any good anecdotes about this? I'd uh be less against pushing the limits of my machine if I could get if I could access sugar and alcohol content of the final slush mix with great accuracy on a hydrometer, but I'm aware that alcohol distorts bricks value. Uh since I use spreadsheets to measure alcohol and sugar content, I can implement whatever advice you have with some precision. Scott, okay.
+
+[30:11] Uh here's the thing. So like there are people like you know, Jeffrey Morgenthaler, who has uh he has a long blog post on using a slush machine, and he advocates a straight bricks uh percentage. Um I forget exactly what he oh he says 12 to 16 bricks, but he's doing 12 to 16 bricks on a finished drink, and that is not a measure of sweetness. Alcohol, you cannot accurately measure uh um sugar and alcohol with any form of refractometer or hydrometer. You can't do it.
+
+[30:47] Uh so like typically in a in um in a bar scenario, when you're measuring bricks, you're measuring with a refractometer. And alcohol and sugar are incredibly confounding. Now, it could be just the lucky lucky case that um, you know, that it, you know, that in the general thing, uh ratio of things that taste good, right? That somewhere that they confound each other, typically such that 12 to 16 bricks on a refractometer, theoretical bricks, it's not actual bricks, right? It's what the refractometer reads, happens to be uh a good level.
+
+[31:23] But I would not I would not do this this way for uh a reciproc recipe creation. I would simply write down how much alcohol and sugar you are adding to uh the mix. And uh as I said last week, like my bricks levels uh in uh in frozen drinks um are 85 grams per liter. So that is 8.5 bricks, theoretically in that area. Right?
+
+[31:56] Is that right, Sas? 8.5? I think that's 8.5 bricks. So it's like a lot, a lot lower. And then I'm doing about 14 to 15% alcohol, right?
+
+[32:09] And in that I'm doing about a little under like 0.6 to 0.9% of acid. Assuming like, you know, if you think about regular lemon or lime juice, it's about 6% acidity. And so that's what I'm shooting for. About 14 to 15% alcohol and about uh 85 grams the liter of sugar, um, which is like I say about 8.5 bricks, and um and then 0.6 to 0.9% of acid. Now, the issue here is that drink is going to be fine textured in your machine, right?
+
+[32:43] Uh, and if you're worried about it, like up the alc go to the higher end of the alcohol range. The problem is that high alcohol drinks like that melt extremely quickly. And this is why most um like you know, crappy daiquiry joints in New Orleans are pushing drinks that are closer to the 7% range. So you're talking about much lower alcohol content. And if your alcohol content is that much lower, down like seven, seven uh ABV, that's when you're gonna need to boost your sugar into a higher range.
+
+[33:14] So then you might I haven't tested drinks in that sugar ratio, but with those drinks, I would assume that you do have to push it higher, like over 10, um, you know, 10, 11 to get it to, you know, to freeze uh right, or 10, maybe 10. Anyway, but uh that's how I would do it. I would do the baggy test to see the texture uh ahead of time. It's gonna give you a rough idea of how the slushing machine works, and then I don't think you're gonna and monitor it the first time you you make it. Like if it starts getting really thick, like dope it with a little extra alcohol to thin it out right away.
+
+[33:44] Uh but I would always dope with alcohol rather than sugar because a little pure ethanol will change the freeze rate pretty quickly uh without adjusting the overall balance that much. Um anyway, hope that helps. Do you think that helps? I don't know. Yeah, you want to take a call, Dave?
+
+[33:59] Yeah, sure, call her. You're on the air. Call her stuff. Hello. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[34:07] Hi. Are we on the air? Yes. Hello? Hey, hi.
+
+[34:12] So this is Claire. I've called in before. I have the vegetti vegetable spiralizer. Yeah. Have you shoved anything new in your vegetti recently?
+
+[34:22] Uh you know, I've kind of been I've kind of retired. I think I over ate it. You've retired your vegetti. I'm so sorry for you. I have to I have to take a break, but more on that later.
+
+[34:35] So Dave, I have I'm in an epic battle with my sister who's on the line. Okay. And we got hi. This is Sissy. We got in a big fight over Christmas because I made a beautiful beef tenderling for Christmas, and then we froze some of it per the hammer's instructions.
+
+[34:54] And then I asked the hammer how to de-saw it, and she gave me very specific instructions, put it in a Ziploc bag with butter and oil, and then put it in water at 128 degrees, something like that. So I I do that and then I go out to walk the dog and then to see what it's and then and then I walked in the room not knowing any of this and let me preface this by saying I'm more the environmentalist in the family and not the cook. Right. So I walked in and see the pot boiling with these baggies of meat. Wait, it was boiling out it was boiling.
+
+[35:41] They were they were definitely bubbl simmering a little bit they were not boiling. It was a hundred and twenty eight degrees. I mean wait but before we go any further was this in was this on a stove or was this in a circulator? On a stove. Ah and Claire to be s to be fair to your sister, you left the building with something that was not supposed to go above 120 degrees Fahrenheit on the stove.
+
+[36:07] I assigned it to my mother who obviously got five traps. Right. This is a you know I'm not saying anything negative about your mom so it's c okay keep going. So sister you came in and you saw a simmering pot. Freak out I'm like mom, what are you doing?
+
+[36:22] Why are you why why do you have plastic hot plastic in the in the pot and I grab them all with tongs or a a fork thing and I throw them into the seat. Okay. Because I am concerned about the plastic leaking into the food and being toxic. So then Claire and I get into a huge fight about Sou B and whether we use the right plastic or whether it's even a good idea or the technique, whatever. So then we start Googling stuff and emailing it back and forth to each other.
+
+[37:00] I guess our question is what is the proper way to use? And what is the temperature? All right, let me let me start by saying I'm completely horrified by what happened to that poor piece of meat that never did anyone any harm at all. Um secondly, Ziploc bags, if you actually use real Ziploc bags, um from uh the you know the uh SC Johnson Wax a family company. Oh, wait, or no, it's just Johnson, yeah, SC Johnson Wax a family company.
+
+[37:37] Uh they're made of strictly polyethylene. The polyethylene doesn't have any plasticizers or you know, it's like it's BPA free and all that. So as plastics go, it is kind of the front, like the bio friendliest plastic, right? That and polypropylene are the two kind of, and I guess nylon, right, which they use for implants. But that but nylon typically there's this a lot of times a nylon layer on the inside of some vacuum bags, but you're not using that, you're using Ziploc.
+
+[38:08] Ziplocks are pure polyethylene. They um they are um food safe. The and and and I have gotten confirmation from the um from the company uh like in in writing, basically saying that yes, it's okay, you know, to do um sous vide work in their bags. Here's the problem. The temperature limit for a um polyethylene bag is, you know, it won't melt uh until it gets above boiling, but it really loses all of its strength once it gets over about 85 to 90 Celsius, right?
+
+[38:51] It starts getting real floppy. Uh it starts feeling like something's going wrong, like you're gonna have some leaching problems. I've never like noticed that to be the case, and and but typically when I'm using Ziploc bags, I prevent them from boiling because they're not really meant to stand it. Um sous vide and a Ziploc, fine. Uh sous vide in a Ziploc when it's boiling, like that could be problematic, not from a safety standpoint so much as from like uh an integrity of the of the bag um standpoint.
+
+[39:26] Um I've been looking into ways of doing um trying to do um low temp work without the plastic. It's just a real hassle. You know what I mean? Either you have to circulate oil or yeah, I'm looking into different ways of doing it, but it's just a real, it's a real kind of pain in the butt. But yes, polyethylene is among the friendliest.
+
+[39:47] So it's not like it's in PVC or or anything like that. You know what I mean? What is family cancer? You're not giving the family cancer. You are and the other the the thing is is that like uh, but you are you know, you are it was beef tenderloin?
+
+[40:05] Yeah. Holy crap. You know, uh you know, like how'd it taste when it was all said and done? Or was there enough of an argument that it didn't even get eaten? Did it get eaten?
+
+[40:16] Was it pre-cooked? Well, I think it was pre-cooked. I threw I threw a fresh piece for her in the microwave and made it extra well done. She didn't have to eat the gas. No, I just before she started to do that, and then I said, no, don't be so drunk.
+
+[40:29] No, don't worry about it. But my question is in doing a little bit of research on this, because I am I'm I'm like, you know, bottled water hot in a car. I don't drink that. You know, I'm I'm very aware of some of the issues with plastic and leaching into food and whatnot. My question is, you know, when we did Claire and I did our research on this to try and prove the other one wrong, we saw that um mason jars were an option.
+
+[41:02] Um how do you feel about that? Well, I mean, the problem with a mason jar is a mason jar needs to be packed a hundred percent full in order for you to get good heat transfer out. So, like if you take a tenderloin, you're gonna have to like pretty heavily abuse it to like so like yeah, you could treat it like a tuna fish, right? You could pack it down in and you could then pour oil around it and then like seal it off, and that's gonna work, but it's gonna take a lot longer for the temperature to go through. And the problem with tenderloin is is that tenderloin you really don't want to cook it that long at a low temperature.
+
+[41:38] So, like let's say you were gonna cook it, I'm just gonna choose a number of 54 degrees Celsius, right? Uh the reason being that tenderloin, the less you cook tenderloin temperature-wise, the better, because it has basically no connective tissue in it. It's like so tender that um if you it like it tends to taste drier and more overcooked at lower temperatures than let's say a ribeye does, right? A ribe eye tends to taste more overcooked at a lower temperature than let's say a skirt steak does. So um, you know, like tenderloin wants to be cooked down around 54 uh Celsius, right around there.
+
+[42:13] And I don't I don't I don't know in my head what that is, but like that's it in Fahrenheit, but that's roughly what you want. But uh in order to get that temperature through a piece of through a mason jar, uh in you know, it's gonna be a long, long time, and typically you don't want your your tenderloin cooking for longer than about um I don't know, 40 minutes. Because if you're doing you're gonna start getting textural effects. Now, that's if you serve them side by side. People might not notice if you cooked it for you know too long and served to them and be like, oh, this is good, this is tender.
+
+[42:47] But if you serve them one side by side that had only been cooked for like you know, 40 minutes or something like that, they would tend to like that one um a lot more. So you boil this sucker, you you boiled it and then threw it in a sink and microwaved it. And then microwaved it. Like what's it? Well not all of them got microwaved.
+
+[43:09] I finished I finished it off the steering on the stove. I only microwaved her a fresh piece. Okay. How thick were the how thick were the pieces? I finished it on the stove.
+
+[43:19] Was it still frozen in the center when you cut it? No. It was actually really tender. We then we d it was good. I ate the soupy, I ate that that the ones that she had cooked, and we put burnet sauce on it, and it was delicious.
+
+[43:35] Oh, that's that's burning sauce for you. I know you all are concerned about the health, I mean, about the um cooking technique. I am I was more concerned about the health aspect of it and concerned about the high heat plastic. Your health, you're fine. Your health is fine.
+
+[43:51] Your health is fine. I'm just still like I'm trying to picture what the meat looked like when it came out. Did it have those weird little like like crevices that overcooked meat gets on the outside where it's gray on the outside and then it went to like raw in the center? Is that what it looked like when you cut the medallions out of it? No, it was really evenly cooked.
+
+[44:10] Honestly, Dave, I think I did her a favor because I threw them out of the boiling water, which it probably wouldn't have boiled if my mom had kept her eye on it, but she's she wandered off somewhere. So I actually might have saved the dinner. I I'd like to look at it that way anyway. Did you enjoy your microwaved piece? She didn't even test that one.
+
+[44:33] Just to prove that. Oh, all right. Yeah, I knew I knew not to eat that one. I would like you to note that you are both alive. I mean, we don't know whether your endocrine system has been disrupted.
+
+[44:44] Just kidding. There's there's there's no endocrine disruptors in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I'm working on, by the way, invest in a circulator because it's been my uh it's been my experience that if you tell someone to watch a pot that they will never watch it. That's like if you tell someone to turn off a stove at a particular time, it will never happen.
+
+[45:04] Uh the problem with frozen is is it's hard to calculate. Um if you want they they have like, you know, uh years ago before circulators are really cheap, everyone was trying to figure out how to use like uh picnic coolers to do low temp work. Very hard though with frozen because um you have to do a lot more calculation of like um the amount of energy it takes to thaw the meat first, but like that's always an option, but it's a huge pain in the butt. So, like, you know, uh just carry a circulator with you, like wherever you go, and then that that can be, you know, it can be your mechanical mom and watch the watch the pot for you. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:41] That's a good answer. Yeah, we should put that on our Christmas list. But I'm I'm I'm thankful that Nastasia at least had butter in the bag. At least you followed that piece of advice and put butter in the bag. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:53] Yes. Well, thank you for helping in solve a very difficult family issue, and now we know. Yeah. So, you know, look, some people, some people are just never going to be convinced on the on the plastic issue in general. I mean, the thing I don't like about it is you end up throwing away, like everyone says, you can reuse the plastic.
+
+[46:10] No, you can't. Who the hell reuses Ziploc bags? You if you said someone said, here's the washed-out Ziploc bag, you'd be like, please, no, thank you. You know what I mean? Another thing about another thing about Ziploc, if you're going to pre-sear the meat beforehand, you need to let it cool a little bit before it goes into Ziploc because you can, as soon as it goes above the boiling temperature of water, you will melt the plastic onto your food.
+
+[46:31] That's not cool because you know, you don't want literally to eat the plastic. Uh I mean, not that it'll necessarily hurt you, but you know, it's just like you don't want to eat the plastic. Um, there's there's that. But uh of all the plastics, it's one of the friendlier ones. All right, great.
+
+[46:48] Well, thank you so much. All right, no problem. Hey, Dave, we gotta have a great day. Dave, we gotta take our break real quick and then you can come back and do your sign-off. All right, we'll take a commercial break.
+
+[46:59] Come right back. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more.
+
+[47:25] Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dundess for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[47:54] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. So tenderloin boiled, thrown in the thrown across the kitchen, and then nuked. That's just a horror show. That's a horror show.
+
+[48:26] Can you imagine what was said that day? That's a horror show. It's a horror, it's a horror show. I figured I'd give you the break to recover from that a little bit, but I guess it didn't work. First of all, by the way, of party uh I'm uh I'm gonna I have one one last thing I gotta get to quickly because I have someone cooking for their pregnant wife.
+
+[48:41] You also need to read that thing in front of you real quickly. All right, we'll do that on the way out. Thank you. So uh uh I'm going back to the book that I'm writing. I'm working on the different party tricks, like 70s style party tricks that I'm gonna put in there.
+
+[48:55] I need to know what you guys think is fun, right? So I'm gonna do a big whole big old whole fish, uh try to make it friendly for home, and a smaller whole fish like the one I did over the weekend. I'm gonna obviously do like a big old prime rib. I'm gonna do a crown roast of pork, I think. Um, but then like, you know, what else?
+
+[49:13] What other old school like things that people don't do anymore that are typically overcooked do you want to see? Like, do you guys want to see a beef wellington? I can do a sick beef wellington, speaking of tenderloin, um or not, you know, straight and like old school straight up duck cells puff pastry and get it like perfect. But I don't know if this is the kind of thing people are interested in. So any sort of party tricks that people want me to uh to uh you know put in the book for uh suit sous vide party tricks, uh let me know.
+
+[49:39] Um okay. Uh Pedro wrote in, uh, and by the way, AK wrote in, we're not gonna get to it this week, but on mocktails, but I'll have a lot to say about like how to make nice mocktails next week, I hope. Uh Pedro writes in from uh Lisbon, I think. Uh first of all, thanks for the great work uh you guys do every week. Just a couple of questions.
+
+[49:55] My wife is 23 weeks pregnant, and I have some questions regarding food safety and sous vide. Uh she isn't uh immune to toxoplasmosis, so we take extra precaution with salads and raw ingredients, etc. By looking at the low temperature charts from Cooking Issues blog, which you can still look up by the way, uh I know that because I looked them up this morning. Uh can I assume that cooking beef slash pork slash duck for one hour at 58 degrees Celsius will make it safe? Um, okay.
+
+[50:23] So what they're talking about is I have uh I took uh all the old and I think there's been some newer newer charts I'm gonna look into it uh for the book, but looking at the charts where you basically have time and temperature. So when you're talking about food safety, you're talking this aspect of food safety, you're talking about killing bacteria. And so, you know, uh people, you know, back in the day used to say you have to cook to this preposterously high temperature because the rule is you only have to hold it there for 10 or 15 seconds, and then it's safe because you've killed everything. But as you know, as most of us know who you know have been working in this field for a while, that you can actually make things safe by cooking at a much lower temperature for a much longer period of time. And so in poultry, which by the way it was measured in chicken, not in duck, and it's not exactly the same, but for chicken, uh, and you would never cook this low, but if you cooked chicken at 58 degrees for Celsius for an hour, you would kill salmonella.
+
+[51:19] And so it would be safe in terms of salmonella, because that's what that was measured for. A little over an hour, actually. The trick with this is. And so you assume the same thing for duck and whatnot. The trick with this is that uh when you're actually trying to pasteurize something, you don't count the exterior of the meat, you only count from when the core makes it up to that temperature.
+
+[51:37] So you have to build in the safety factor for pasteurization to deal with once the core reaches pasteurization temperature, um, you know, that's when you start your uh start your clock. And for salmonella, you could probably uh go lower if you cooked longer, and there's probably now numbers out for duck as opposed to for chicken, which is where I did my thing. Beef numbers are much lower. So if you look at the curve for uh beef, beef, they're not trying to kill uh salmonella, they're trying to kill um uh uh uh E. coli.
+
+[52:08] Um so anyway, so that that's how that works, but it's from the middle. And then secondly, we normally go to a pizzeria where the oven, the outer layer is made of gold, uh, just for the fun of it. Uh it it this is in Lisbon, it's called uh golden oven, fornodoro. Uh is so hot that the pizza only stays inside for 90 seconds, so the ingredients get roasted pretty quick. Is this also safe?
+
+[52:28] Uh as you could tell it's our first baby. Uh and then I and then uh the they went to Booker and Dax when they're on their honeymoon. You know, unfortunately it's you know closed. But you know when you come back, hopefully we have the new place open. And lastly, I forgot to ask about alcohol and food.
+
+[52:41] Is it safe to use it in risottos and beer batters for frying? Uh or they you know will the heat evaporate it totally. The heat will not evaporate it totally, but their it'll heat will evaporate a lot of it, and so much of it is uh gone and it's usually so diluted that like I've never worried or hesitated serving it to um a pregnant person, right? Because A, you're not adding that much, and B, you're cooking off the majority of the alcohol. So it's a very small amount that's it, you know, that's in there.
+
+[53:10] The only time that I worry about it is when I have someone who either for moral reasons or um you know just has to be really strict with themselves to not consume any alcohol, that they uh that's the only time that I would forego on something like that. And the um, you know, and later on, like you know, in breastfeeding, we uh I've talked about on the show before, like the new research that goes against what I used to say on consumption of alcohol uh just prior to breastfeeding. But anyway, we'll talk talk about that later. It's back to your pizza oven being safe. If you are looking at I mean, those temperatures are so high that typically people who are cooking a 90-second like Neapolitan style pizza um aren't putting a boatload of toppings on, right, Stas?
+
+[53:53] Like they're not like topping the hell out of it. And if you get up to the point where like the the cheese is nicely melted and the crust is cooked, right? So you know how like sometimes Stas, when you look at it, like if they try to do the super fast, super high thing and the crust is too thick, you get that layer of uncooked crust in between that thing where the sauce hits, that's an indication that it hasn't like gotten up to those really high temperatures. But if the sucker's cooked all the way through, I'm pretty sure you're hitting in the at least in the 60s of of degrees Celsius, and anything up in there is wiping out anything that's gonna ail you, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Um and uh, but you know, it's good to worry about um good to worry about these things when uh when your wife is pregnant.
+
+[54:34] And if I were you, I'd be busting out like all kinds of like pasteurized uh steaks, rare and all kind of runny eggs pasteurized because that's what I that's whenever whenever I had the pregnant when my wife was pregnant or my sister-in-law's or when friends come over pregnant, like I always give them that stuff that they're not supposed to have at restaurants because I know I can do it safely with the circulator. Uh and I would give my normal sign-off, but I'm supposed to give this uh this ad that in fact we were reading in the middle. So I'm gonna sign off now, right? And then I'm gonna read. Okay, I'll keep it consistent.
+
+[55:08] Yeah. So this thing that I'm about to recite to you actually happened in the middle of the show. Even though you might think it's the end of the show, this what I'm reading to you now is actually happening in the middle. Time is a flat circle. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you.
+
+[55:22] Janie Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[56:01] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. And that is it, folks, for cooking issues. See you next time. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[56:31] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[56:57] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is sponsored by Bob's Red Mill. With natural foods, they support organic, vegan, paleo, and gluten free lifestyles. Learn more about their commitment to good food for all at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E.
+
+[0:24] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:57] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, I don't know, what is it like 1215 to like 1245, one o'clock, uh, you know, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? Yeah?
+
+[1:13] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Got Dave in the booth. How are you doing? Also good.
+
+[1:16] Yeah? Yeah. How do you pronounce your last name? Tata Shore. Tatasure.
+
+[1:21] So it's like not like the full Italian pronunciation. Give me the Italian. Not in this country, I guess. Give me the Italian. Tata Scuore.
+
+[1:28] Tataschiore. Hey, but you pronounce it asure? Yeah. Like Dinosaur, but with Tata? You know, funny story.
+
+[1:36] I one time met Ben Stein, the comedian, and he asked my name, and I told him, and he was like, oh, like Dinah Shore. For real. Yeah. So that's one thing I share with Ben Stein. Yes.
+
+[1:48] Nice. All right. Why did you meet Ben Stein? I don't know. He was like wandering around the campus of my school.
+
+[1:54] That seems like something he's doing. He must have been there for a show or something. This was at um uh this was at a uh uh a school which shall remain unnamed in central Pennsylvania many, many years ago. Huh. Did he was he doing his uh his Bueller bit or was he doing his uh like uh his his game show bit or what?
+
+[2:13] No, I think I actually I don't know I don't think it was a comedy show. I think he was just there to speak about life or Nixon or whatever he has to say. Yeah, he's quite a conservative dude. Yeah. He's like super conservative dude.
+
+[2:25] Shockingly. Like super conservative. But like regardless of anyone's political beliefs, everyone loves Bueller, Bueller. Dave, what school did you go to? It was Penn State.
+
+[2:36] Nice. Penn State's great. Why do you not? I know, no, but Dave, what school did you go to? What, me?
+
+[2:41] Yeah. Oh Nastasia, like Nastasi went to Stanford. Yeah, yeah, but this is my well, this is what I hate when people ask me what school I went to. What school did you go to? Uh it's in uh Northern California.
+
+[2:49] Like how northern? We talking like Eureka? We talking in San Francisco. Uh huh. So you went to like, you know, what?
+
+[2:56] You're like, No, no, then you're like, Palo Alto. You keep going. Yeah. East Palo Alto, though. You're like went to like a like a C C in East Palo Alto.
+
+[3:05] That's when that's what you've done. Like, uh Connecticut. Isn't that true? They're like, where do you live? And you're like, Connecticut.
+
+[3:10] Because I actually lived in Connecticut. I'm saying we both agree with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say where you went. Here's the issue.
+
+[3:17] I'm 45 years old, almost 46 years old. I mean, where I went to school, pretty immaterial, other than the fact that I met my wife there. Yeah. But Penn State, which is where my grandpa who just died came from, Elion, you know, whatever, like they have great ice cream, apparently. They have like like the ice cream program.
+
+[3:34] Like if you want to learn how to make ice cream on a commercial level, like you go to Penn State. You ever have their ice cream when they were out there? Yeah, of course. Did you enjoy their ice cream? Yeah, of course.
+
+[3:42] All right. They have great ice cream and uh pathological state of denial going on up there. About other things. Yes. Look.
+
+[3:49] That all right, I got you. All right. Uh there's been a caller who's been waiting, right? All right. Well, I'll take that caller.
+
+[3:57] And if there are more callers, call in your questions to 718497 2128. That's 7184972128. And caller, you're on the air. Hey, uh, this is Darren, uh a young fan from the Kingdom of Melan. Hey, nice.
+
+[4:10] Uh can you hear me okay? Uh until now the quality's been kinda bad on my bed. Let me ask you a question. In the Netherlands, are they super worried about uh about uh sea levels rising? Oh man, I I'm so sorry I really can't hear you on my end.
+
+[4:26] Maybe I should try and call you back. Alright, yeah, could call back so you can hear what I hear with you. Try now, try not to call it. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?
+
+[4:33] I feel like the guy who switched from Verizon to uh Sprint. Can you hear me now, caller? Give a call back. Give a call back and we'll and we'll try it again. Uh in the meantime.
+
+[4:43] I think you have another caller. I have another caller. Yeah, there's another caller here. Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hello.
+
+[4:51] What's going on with these people here? We're having some bad luck with the calls today. Listen, you tell me Are you good there? Hey, how you doing, caller? Oh, hi.
+
+[4:59] Yes, I I can kind of hear you. All right. Um, how's it going? I had a question about um pressure cooking stocks in aluminum pot. Sure.
+
+[5:10] Um we're open I'm opening a restaurant that's gonna be doing a lot of soups, and we're hoping to do pressure cooked chicken stock. And the biggest one I can find that's not like insanely expensive, is like a forty one quart all American pressure cooker. That's but they're only made in aluminum. And I was wondering if there's any concerns with that. You guys use like a steel steamless steel insert when you guys are using it.
+
+[5:36] Yeah, a lot depends on what you're gonna do. Like, okay, so there's there are people who are worried about aluminum in any event. I'm not one of those people, but like you do need to be worried about aluminum in excessively uh basic conditions, or any time you're setting up sort of like kind of a galvanic cell between um metals, or like if you have heavy detergents going into it, or if you have uh I guess also I wonder what I guess extreme acids too, whatever. But anyway, so aluminum though in chicken stock, I don't think is gonna be that big of a problem. You know, I'm sure you've used over the course of your life uh various qualities of aluminum pots, and what you know, what you notice is that they get uh they get pitted out, especially like the lower quality ones get pitted out a lot, and that metal's going somewhere.
+
+[6:22] Guess where? Uh you know what I mean? It's like some of it's getting scrubbed out, but you know, uh uh some of that stuff's getting leashed out. Most of it happens when you can form like a galvanic connection, like an electrical connection between dissimilar metals and a liquid medium, i.e. your food.
+
+[6:37] Now, in chicken stock, which you know isn't especially acidic or basic, I doubt that you're gonna have that many uh problems. And I myself am not worried about um I'm not worried about it. In very, very long cooking items, I've had some things discolor when they're cooking in the presence of aluminum foil in sous vide, but we're talking like, you know, days. Um, you know, or at least many, many hours. So like a s short run in a in a pressure cooker, I don't think is gonna cause um that much of a problem.
+
+[7:08] Now you could get people on see back in the day, people used to worry about aluminum pots because um there was increased uh aluminum content in the brains of autopsied uh Alzheimer's patients and so then the question was did aluminum cause Alzheimer's or not right and this is a big problem because aluminum's in like a lot like a lot of the baking um uh powders that we use uh I think it's also one of the main ingredients in um you know an aluminum compound I think in um underarm deodorant and so we come into aluminum in kind of non-natural formats okay pretty often you know what I mean um and so they did a lot of research and I think it was determined that you know that it is true that alzheimer's patients uh put more aluminum into their brains but it's not that the that you and I necessarily are getting aluminum into through the food we ingest and depositing it in our brains and that's causing Alzheimer's in other words I think the current research shows that it's a um it's a result rather than a cause if that makes sense. So you know what you what you need to worry about more is like is it affecting the flavor I think of other stock. And you know what honestly I've never noticed it. I've never done a side by side in the American pressure canner versus like um because the the other problem with the American pressure you know pressure canner is that it is a big ship to steer. So you have it takes a while to get her up to to pressure and then it takes a while to stabilize it out.
+
+[8:41] You know what I mean? And you have all those fidgety fussity knobs on the top of it that you you know tighten it down like a submarine bulkhead. Uh actually I wish it was like a submarine bulkhead. Those have just that one big knob. These have like all those little, like, you know, those little black uh knobs.
+
+[8:56] So it can be kind of fidgety uh to get it going, but it does make a whole boatload of um stuff once you're done. The other thing you have to be careful with on those units is they take a long time to cool down too. Long time to cool down. So like it's it's not necessarily for anything that you need to do like a natural temperature drop on just because you're gonna be there forever. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:20] Whereas, you know, for stock, I don't really uh see this is true. You might get more uh you're probably gonna get a cloudier stock if you force cool it rather than let it like come down naturally, but you might be able to cut your recipes a little bit shorter and then to account for the fact that it's gonna take a long time for the thing to kind of drift back down. But back to what I was saying, I've never noticed uh an aluminum flavor on something that is cooked solely in an aluminum pot that is not acidic, it's not basic, and also doesn't have any other metal implements in it. You know what I mean? So you know, I've noticed uh in kind of mixed metal situations, you know, where I know the aluminum is leaching.
+
+[9:59] I don't know whether it's my mind telling me there's a taste or not. Could be, you know, it's hard to say. Um but that's just my you know, my my general impression because you know, in general, i you know, I everybody knows that a lot of their stuff in a restaurant, you know, maybe not a high-end restaurant, but in like you know, medium restaurants is cooked in aluminum because large aluminum pots are so much cheaper than large stainless steel pots, so much cheaper for a given level of you know quality. And so, you know, unless you know, when was the last time you were at a restaurant where someone like had the soup and was like, oh my god, they cook this in aluminum. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:37] Like it now, that that said, I think it would make sense to do like some side-by-sides just kind of for fun to see whether you could blind, you know, triangle test to see whether you could taste the difference. But I kind of doubt it outside of the you know the the very basic things that um that I mentioned here. I'm kind of you know, it's interesting. They the people who make that pressure cooker, they make it for two reasons. They don't really call it a cooker, they call it either a canner or a sterilizer, depending on what lid you're using.
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+[11:03] And for those of you that look it up on the online, it is by far the biggest pressure cooker you can get. Um, they don't call it a cooker because I guess presumably like they're like who cooks that much. But the um because they're they're not aimed at pros necessarily. Um and almost I've never seen you know a modern um non-stainless uh you know sandwich uh pressure cooker. So it'll be hard to do a side-by-side, which is I guess one of the reasons I've never I've never really done it.
+
+[11:32] But you could do a standard soup side-by-side, I guess, um, aluminum versus stainless and see what's going on. But that's probably also because they don't they're not expecting you to cook in it, you know, cook in quotes like cook a stock. It's probably why they don't have a version of it with like an interior hard anodized shell. You know what I mean? Right.
+
+[11:49] Uh that would make it a lot easier. Now, if you want to go super fancy, you could take it to your local uh you know, local anodizer and and they could make it like whatever awesome color you want, along with the hard anodized coating. You could have like the sweetest pink pressure canner in the whole world, you know what I mean? Um but um I don't know whether I didn't I haven't looked into the anodized. Yeah, you know, it's not that expensive to get something anodized, but what I don't know is whether or not the food anodizing people do have like a special bath, or whether there's any sort of uh food gradeness to like what an anodizer does, because I've never looked at it, but I have looked at getting parts anodized before.
+
+[12:26] Because you know, like a lot of aluminum par carts, people want them all different colors because they want, like, you know, they want this piece to be red and this piece to be green because you know they're spending a lot a lot of money on their car, so like everything has to be just so. And when you have an aluminum part, anodizing is the way to go. Or if you look at like mag lights, you know, back when people were buying a bunch of mag lights uh before they got swamped by all the LED people, like think of all the anodized cool colors mag lights came in, you know what I mean, or still come in, I guess. Right, right. So it is possible, but I don't know the cost.
+
+[12:56] Great. And then you and then you guys you recommend the uh the canner, right? Because the top of that has doesn't have the jiggler valve, it just has like the the regular sort of um non-steam releasing valves. Okay, so the way that the can there's there's two the canner and the sterilizer. The sterilizer is kind of a pain in the butt because it's got a long kind of tube that comes out of it, and um that tube is to guarantee that you vent off all of the air that's inside of your pressure cooker.
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+[13:23] One of the things about a pressure cooker that is not talked about that often, except for I guess by pressure cooker conoscenti, is that you want to actually allow steam to escape for uh like you know, you know, a minute or two um at the beginning of the cook, and the reason is you want to purge all the dry air out of it and have it all be steam. Now, it seems like you know, it seems like that that doesn't make sense. And at first blush, when I thought about it, it seems like it wouldn't make a difference, but from what everybody says, it actually makes a difference. And the pressure canner people, uh, pressure sterilizer people who are using you know sterilizing implements to use for surgery, especially care about this sort of thing. Uh and so, you know, in general now, and if you look at like a coon recon, for instance, like you know how like when it comes up to temperature, like the side valve hisses for a while before it shuts off.
+
+[14:17] And that's an inherent you know what I'm saying? That's a little side valve, and that's inherent in the design, such that you get the dry air out of the pressure cooker, and all that's left in there is steam. Uh and so that that's why it does that. So, you know, if you if you wonder like why the hell did they design it this way, why didn't they just seal it? And that that's the reason.
+
+[14:38] Um so with these guys, they have what's called a the a very nice geared um uh pressure sensor on the top of the pressure cooker, right? One that's far more accurate than the crappy ones that you get in, you know, in a standard home uh pressure cooker. But then they also have a weight on them, and the weight looks a little bit like a round tinker toy with different size holes drilled in it. And depending on which hole you put on top of the vent valve of the uh pressure canner, it puts uh it's a different um uh radius and therefore a different amount of uh pressure that's going to be pushing up on it, and therefore you can adjust the the over the the like when the steam starts like venting on it based on the weight of the the weight and the circle diameter of that little tinker toy. Uh so what you do is you leave the tinker toy off for a little while, let a lot of steam come up, and then once the steam comes up, you put the tinker toy on, and then you adjust the pressure such that the tinker toy is not venting anymore, and you're just using the pressure gauge to determine the pressure of the um of the stock.
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+[15:42] See what I mean? So that's how you that's how you do it. But it's still considered advisable to um to let that thing vent. And I did a bunch of tests where like, you know, I artificially increased the weight of the tinker toy uh such that you you have to keep the weight centered or it's kind of a mess. Uh but I artificially increased the weight of the tinker toy.
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+[16:01] One thing you have to be careful of in a professional kitchen is some knucklehead is going to lose that weight. They're gonna lose it. Then you are hosed. So uh back when it was living at the French Culinary Institute, I literally tied uh I tied it to the handle of the which is not smart in a pro kitchen because the health inspector is gonna be like, What's this piece of string tied to you? It's not NSF anymore.
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+[16:24] You know what I mean? But like but like just to make sure that I wasn't gonna lose that little thing because the whole piece of equipment is functionally useless after you you lose that. You know what I mean? It's uh just one of those things. Can you just say tinker toy one more time?
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+[16:38] Tinker toy. Did you not have tinker toy? When I was a kid, one of my best toys I had unfortunately was made of plastic because you know this was the like the mid seventies, but they used to make giant tinker toys out of plastic that you could literally make things you could sit in, right? So I I was fortunate enough to have a set of these giant tinker toys, and I can still like you know, if you were to scale them up to my you know, you know, adult size, like the long tinker toy pipe would be like four and a half, five feet long, like big. You know what I mean?
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+[17:09] I mean when I was I'm sure it was only two and a half feet long because I was, you know, like shorter, but you know, anyway. So hopefully this has this hopefully this has been helpful. What I would like you to do if you do some experiments, I would like you to either call back or tweet over on at cooking issues and let me know how it works out so that I can uh help uh you know further crews in their in pressure cooking endeavors. Great, awesome. Thank you so much.
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+[17:33] Thank you. Hey David, Dave. Yeah, did we get that other uh fellow back? Yeah, other fellow, you still there? Hey, how are you doing?
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+[17:39] Can you hear us now? Yeah, I can hear you pretty okay. Uh connection before was better, so I was listening to him in, but uh looks like it's forgiven. So uh hi Nastasia, hi Dave. Um Fan Collins from the Netherlands.
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+[17:52] Um I relatively recently discovered the show and your immense kick butt uh backlog of shows, uh, which I listened to on my commutes to my engineering internship. Uh so thanks a lot for that. Thank you. Um I recently made a Chef Steps chicken pot pie. Um yeah, by the way, uh I I'm a college student, so I've got like low budget, but hopefully not low quality questions for you.
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+[18:14] All right, nice. I like low budget. Uh Nastasia likes low quality, I like low budget. All right, great. So um I really enjoyed uh chicken pot pie.
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+[18:24] Uh I cooked with my girlfriend this weekend, and uh I have loads of time in the weekend to go cracking these days, but I don't even have access to a kitchen generally during the week. Um so I'm currently thinking a lot about uh preparing food in advance and preparing good food in advance. Um so what can you recommend? And when you're considering something like a chicken pot pie, uh is that best to store in a semi or post-cooked piece or in its constituent sort of pieces like uh doughballs and and the filling? That's a good question.
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+[18:55] So I've never stored a I mean I've had chicken pot pie. First of all, let's just all be clear. Nastasia, you like chicken pot pie, right? Love. Love.
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+[19:04] Dave, you like chicken pot pie? Best. Yeah. Chicken pot pie is good. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna let's put this all on the table.
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+[19:09] I like an actual chicken pot pie, i.e. one that has a bottom crust and a top crust. One that was at one time. That's what I made. Right.
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+[19:17] Right. Sorry, sorry. Now, in a modern person, right? If okay, so like are you but you're a mere you're American, right? So you've been you've hung out.
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+[19:24] Have you been to school in America? No, no, I grew up completely in Europe. Oh my god, you're one of those spy like people who sounds like an American but isn't from here. You're crazy. Are you are you a spy?
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+[19:34] Half American, half Dutch, but I grew up in the foot one. All right. Alright, alright, all right. Nastasia therefore likes you because of the whole Swiss thing. But listen, so like in America, a crappy pot pie, even though I feel that we are like, you know, one of the you know bastions of pot pie ness in the world, like there's this terrible idea where they take a hotel pan and they put the pot pie mix into the hotel pan and just put the crust on top.
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+[19:57] So just be sure we're not talking about that kind of second tier of pot pie. Okay. So the issue with the pot pie and storage once it's baked is just making sure that the crust on the bottom doesn't get kind of overly soggy. So you know, the but I see I wish I'd run some more tests. I don't buy frozen like pot pies.
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+[20:21] I admit when I was a kid, I I had plenty of, you know, was it Swanson or Stofer who made the pot pie? Swanson who made the pot pie. I had plenty of those growing up, but um, yeah. So what's the best way? It's probably similar.
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+[20:33] I'm trying to think of what a pie. I'm trying to figure out whether you should just make the crust and freeze it and then blind bake, or whether or not I I don't know how thick you could get and actually literally cook the pot pie from frozen, entirely from frozen. You know what I mean? I'm trying to it might actually not be so bad. You know what I mean?
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+[20:51] Like, so if you're looking at a uh I'd have to, I'd have to get uh our friend Nick Devlin to run some um com sol uh uh stuff, but I don't know how long it would take the standard pot pie, because the the goop is like uh I'm a believer in pre pre-cooking the goop out, basically. The chicken's already cooked, everything's cooked, right? So then basically you just need to thaw the goop and then cook the shell. You might be able to freeze uh you might be able to freeze an entirely raw pot pie and just do it. I don't know though.
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+[21:23] Anyone on the uh anyone on the boards uh, Dave, who uh has uh cooked a uh frozen a pot pie and then cooked it? Uh I'll let you know chat room. Yeah, see what the chat room has to say, chime in on this. But I would see I would think it's possible. Well, if I ever try, I'll I'll let you know how it goes.
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+[21:40] Um and and like when when you like consider um like I don't know, whenever you're traveling or whatever and you want to prepare meals in advance, and if you just know you have uh not that much time during the week, like I mean it sounds like an excuse, but I really honestly don't have uh access to a kitchen. What sort of uh recipes can you recommend uh to prepare like on on a whole weekend? Because I'm happy to cook the whole weekend. What do you have? What do you have for reheating capabilities?
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+[22:09] Uh I'm I often have uh access to a microwave, um, sometimes a stove, but that's about it. So I'm like in a pretty dire situation. Right. I mean, I mean, the obvious ones are things like I mean, soups, like you want something that doesn't degrade, right? But are you looking for an idea that isn't just like the standard non non-degrading, like anything that is a stew or or you know, something like this is kind of a like easy an easy call.
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+[22:39] The problem with those things is reheating. So like if you're in if you're let's say you're in a dorm room or whatever, some sort of like, you know, non-ideal circumstance, and you have a a quart container of um of soup, that sucks. Thawing those out sucks. Um, you know, the real but the problem is is if you take, let's say, something like soup and you to f you know freeze it in uh Ziploc format, which is what I tend to do, or chill it in Ziploc format flat. So like the easiest way to reheat something that is not you know a large object like uh a roast is to spread it into a ziploc as thin as possible and then freeze them in flat sheets uh on sheet trays.
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+[23:20] Then they become basically thin bricks that thaw out extremely quickly and also heat up very quickly. But the issue is is you want to be careful when you microwave it because if you have uh oil in your thing, it can locally overheat and melt out the Ziploc because Ziploc bags, their their melting temperature is extremely uh where they lose their structural integrity. It's not a safety issue, but it's extremely close to um the boiling point of water. So it's very easy in a microwave to locally overheat a Ziploc bag and have it lose its integrity, and that kind of sucks. Uh but you can do things like um you can do things like uh, and I've done this recently, where you take the frozen ziploc and you score it and then you break the thing into sheets and then put that into the microwave in sheet format and they just melt down into your bowl, easy as pie.
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+[24:15] Or if you happen to get a hold of a of a you know a you know, a cheap circulator, or even sometimes just uh hot water in you know, in out of a tap, you can thaw those bags very, very quickly and then put them into something to reheat them like a microwave. But it really, really sucks to reheat um quart containers of soup in a microwave. I don't know if you've ever tried, or stews. No, I've never tried. It's horrible.
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+[24:41] Nastassi, you've tried that, right? And it's horrible. You get that giant chunk and then it starts spinning and then you shove the spoon into the core container to try to get it to woo and then it spins around and it spurts up into your freaking eye and you think you're like, oh it's only going to be five minutes until I got dinner on the table and then like 20 minutes later they're like it's a microwave. I thought it was quick. What's your problem?
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+[24:58] You know what I mean? I hate that. Hate. Yeah exactly. But another good thing is you can do sauces.
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+[25:03] So you could do you could pre-do certain certain pasta sauces and whatnot can also be bagged out in the same way so that if you have uh access to let's say um uh just like a simple hot plate you could boil out your pasta and then you can have your sauce pre-bagged you know pre-portioned pre-bagged and you can be thawing that in hot water as you go and the noodles themselves will do a major bit of reheating on that sauce as long as it isn't dead cold. And as long as it's not like a like it depends also like if you're doing a sauce that has a huge volume right then you're gonna really cool down the pasta quite a bit but as long as you're doing a sauce where it's a relatively small volume if it even if it's just warm the pasta will still be good. I know Nastasia enjoys cooking some pasta. I do especially now that she's a part of that um I'll definitely uh think of this and also if I'm like making chicken pot pie next time or something and I'm like I'm gonna scale up my recipe put it in like a flat ziplock and then I can have easy access to it like even if I do have access to the kitchen and just speed up that whole cooking process. That's a great that's a great tip.
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+[26:04] Yeah sure. Alright well let us know uh let us know how everything works. You got anything else? Uh absolute I I I've got I've got a couple like one one more question. Do I have time for that?
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+[26:13] Yeah sure go ahead. Alright great. Um I'm fascinated by your spinz all and uh I love the low temperature tips that you've got and everything. I'm a total tech enthusiast. Uh you know, I'm I'm an engineering student.
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+[26:24] I mean, what you gonna do? Um so I'd love to have like a gadget-filled kitchen. So what unconventional, like budget-friendly tools can you recommend uh to people like me and to tinkers? I'm also not afraid of uh getting some basic electronics and uh if my degree is worth anything, then I should be able to build something of relatively good quality. Right.
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+[26:43] So are you uh are you what are you, double E, Mekie? What are you? Uh aerospace engineering. Oh okay. So all right, fine.
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+[26:51] All right. So uh yeah, so you should be able to do some stuff. Is that still like uh a real baller area of engineering or no? It's like um basically um mechanical engineering with some extra thermodynamics and fluid dynamics is probably I mean it it's uh it's uh maybe some people will get angry by that, but uh that's probably how I describe it. Yeah, it's a cool it's a cool engineering field, I think.
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+[27:15] Anyway, um I mean so just you know, having used most of the stuff that people use, obvious you know, the first thing you're gonna need is you're gonna need uh an immersion circulator. Um eventually, you know, you might want to tweak out your own version of uh steam injection or like massive control of an oven. Like I'm a huge believer in massive oven control. Uh and you can do that. That's great, because I've got like this awful compact oven and I'd love to develop like a front end where I can like put a profile into it.
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+[27:45] That would be super sick. Oh, and you totally talk about you to yeah, you too and you totally can. You know what I mean? So eat like if if it's especially easy if it's electric. Uh it's not it's not that hard even if it's gas.
+
+[27:57] You just have to be a little more careful with the kind of with the safety stuff. Um but I've tricked out electrics, I've tricked out gas ovens, and yeah, you can do lots of cool stuff. Like you can do um you can do you know, your own steam injection into it, you can do uh your own versions of uh forced convection on the inside. You can do uh independently heated uh bottoms and tops. You could there's you know with with uh yeah, there's all kinds of cool stuff you can do messing with your oven.
+
+[28:25] As long as if you own it, it's no problem. If you don't own it, you just have to make it be able to look okay. I also always um after making this mistake several times, uh I always put a uh like a human switch in where you're just like okay, a normal human now can come in and use my oven, and then I would put it into my mode where you know everyone's like, why can't I just before the why can't I just use your oven, Dave? Why does everything have to be so complicated? You know what I mean?
+
+[28:52] It's like all that kind of complaining, so it makes your life a lot easier. Just have that switch on it, like you know, normal mode. I I love it. Yeah. That's great.
+
+[29:02] I'm gonna like uh who knows when I have time, but when I do, I'll I'll let you know how it goes. Uh and last but not least, uh, you might know of Dutch Enabor. Um you I don't really actually find it all that pleasant myself. Um but are there any cool like food combinations that come to your mind with regard to cooking or or mixing with it? Uh because I'd love to find an awesome use for it and enjoy it with because it's so quintessentially Dutch.
+
+[29:24] I got a lot of Dutch friends, uh friends and family. I think they'd be really impressed if I could like trick, you know, spin something up. Right. I've never cooked with it. Uh Tristan, I mean, like over here we now Philip Duff, who's uh you know, a uh uh liquor international liquor person, but he spends a lot of time here in the U.S.
+
+[29:41] He has a Genover company, and so he's gonna be mad that I don't have this stuff just tripping off the tongue. But I've never cooked with it. Uh we used to use it, you know, a bit at the bar, and the I don't have the spec in my head because it wasn't my spec, but Tristan Willey, our original manager at Booker and Dax, uh, he had a drink called Bull's Deep. I'm sure the recipe's online that is like uh it's like an old fashioned, but it's one of these inverted angle drinks, so it's got a boatload of angostura in it. Um we also used to do uh bulls, uh Jennifer and Apricot, and that's a really good mix.
+
+[30:15] So you might want to think of uh apricot and Jennifer with because they go together quite well. Uh but I don't have and I've used I've mixed with it on a number of occasions. I just don't have any specs in my in my head. You know what I mean? It's the kind of thing where you're working on a project and you're like, oh, you know what, Jennifer would be good for that.
+
+[30:32] But you know, any like uh once you start like appreciating how long have you been you've been there your whole life, you said you've been there no you Switzerland you grew up, all right. But you're half Dutch. Are you are you a fan of salty licorice or no? Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, I am. Uh I'm pretty partial to it.
+
+[30:48] So you like most Dutch things, just not Jennifer. Uh well, uh Dutch culinary, uh I I I might get some hate with it, but uh uh it it's a little on the basic side sometimes. But no, I I I like some of these kind of Dutch delicacies and little sweets and things that are typically Dutch, yeah. All right. So um anyway, I think like you know, once you start uh you the more you use something, the more you like it.
+
+[31:12] And the more you like it, the more you find uses for it. So that's exactly what I figured. Exactly. Yeah. Mean mean who of us are really born loving most of the things that we end up loving?
+
+[31:23] You know, very few of the things. You know, we're not born loving coffee, I don't think. We're not born loving a lot of the things uh that we that we end up liking. So, yeah, use, find a couple of uses that you like, you know, put a peg on those, and then branch out from there, and you'll find more and more that you like. The real trick once you like something is finding something that a non-lover will like.
+
+[31:42] That's the real trick. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's that's great.
+
+[31:47] So thanks so uh so much for all the tips. Uh love your work, love the show. Uh, both you and Nastasha. Um, I've got your uh liquid intelligence book, because I'm kind of getting into cocktails at the moment. Sort of new to me and dipping my toe in.
+
+[31:58] Uh but yeah, thanks for all the great work. And uh I'll call in if I have uh any more questions or uh uh yeah, just to let you know how everything goes. Great tip. Thank you. All right, Dave, should we should we go to a commercial or we have another part?
+
+[32:11] You read my mind. Yeah, let's take commercial and then we got a caller on the line waiting. All right, cool. Coming right back with cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps.
+
+[32:35] If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[33:08] Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978.
+
+[33:33] One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. And we are back.
+
+[34:15] That man will not shut up. Man will not shut up. So many commercials. What is with that? Also, that commercial, not very good.
+
+[34:21] Which one's spelt. You you are dripping all over yourself. Listen, while we're uh well all over myself, I like that. Like interrupting myself. Uh look, we're gonna take a caller, but in the meantime, I brought back this uh hot sour candy called um uh Winnie's Acid Ups from Mexico.
+
+[34:39] Nastasia, eat another one while we're talking. You don't like it? Why not? I don't know. There's a weird flavor, not the hot or the spicy, the spicy.
+
+[34:46] But it's tamarind, it's tamarind over top of it's tamarind and chili powder. Do you not like that Lucas powder? I like the chili powder. I like yeah, I like that. It's the tamarind, I think.
+
+[34:57] And you don't like tamarind? Yet another thing. All right, call you have a caller? Caller. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[35:04] Uh hello? Hi. Hi there. This is uh Paul Rafelson from Underbelly in Brooklyn. And um I have an idea in response to a question that you fielded in a previous podcast.
+
+[35:17] I also have a totally unrelated question. What would you rather have first? Your choice. Okay. So my idea, you were you were asking about home-friendly ways of browning proteins after low temperature cooking.
+
+[35:32] I just wanted to mention something that I've been doing. I don't think it's a new idea, but I don't hear about a lot of people doing it. I think less than half the time that it normally takes. You can also use a slightly less hot pan to do it in. Yes, it you know speeds um myard reactions.
+
+[36:16] So and I I think maybe even some non my some non uh myard browning reactions. So the uh obviously like adding a reducing sugar uh is gonna speed myard and also it will literally caramelize, which speeds browning. And you're gonna have uh the more basic uh environment, so that's gonna enhance uh browning. So this is the a lot of people have done this with um or tested this. In fact, there's some, I think they were from the Netherlands actually, going back to the last caller, that used to do this on browned meats for things like ragu's or like bolognese or s something like this, um to enhance the browning of the meats, especially in situations where it's hard to get good browning because of excess moisture, like when you're doing ground meat in the bottom of a pot.
+
+[37:07] Um there's also, you know, obviously the um, you know, chesteps and the modernist cuisine crew are very pro uh a little bit of baking soda in um in veg in a pressure cooker to enhance the kind of uh brown kind of cooked flavors that you get in those environments as well. So it's known there. I've done some experimenting with um meats that way years and years ago. But m my problem with it has always been it's like very hard to get it such that you can't tell that there's been baking soda on the outside, and you also have to put or at least we always did, maybe we don't have to, you tell me, put some acid on it afterwards to neutralize it, and you can get some weird kind of foamy effects. But maybe we were just overdoing it on the baking soda, maybe by cutting it with a little bit of sugar.
+
+[37:59] You also have to also worry if you have sugar on it, same way that if you're like, you know, cooking with um any sugary glaze or or soy basing that y like you said, you have to go with a lower temperature because you you it's easy to l scorch it such that it it it tastes burnt. So you just have to be careful. The same way you would if you had like a a marinade like a teriyaki marinade or something, you have to be careful that you don't scorch it in a pan, because it's easy to do. But have you noticed uh have you noticed any sort of like basic or or baking soda y kind of flavor, or do you neutralize it with an acid afterwards? Uh I haven't had to neutralize it.
+
+[38:33] Um what I have done with some trial and error is really reduced the amount of baking soda that's in the mix. So um what I've done for a while is about a one to five ratio of baking soda to um dextrose. And um then really the only issue is if you sprinkle it on dry, it's easy to overdo it a little bit. Um and also it doesn't really have much shelf life because it it uh the the glucose pulls moisture out of the air and and gets clumpy and then it starts to kind of uh myardize itself. Um but uh what I've just started doing and uh which which is kind of promising is I make that same mix and I disperse it in oil.
+
+[39:13] Um it's kind of dispersed in some neutral uh refined oil like safflower oil or something. Doesn't dissolve, but it stays separate and it says uh apart from oxygen and moisture in the air, and you just brush it on real lightly with the pastry brush. And so far the couple of times I've done that it's worked really well. Um you just resuspend right before, just like re-slurry it right before you're gonna use it? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:37] Like it stays um it stays a really nice consistency in the oil and just like coats the brush nicely. And you just put a little slather on after you've dropped the meat and bam. Um I'll try it. Are you are you doing five to one? Um you did say bam, that happened.
+
+[39:54] Yeah, you did. That happened. Um but yeah, it it's uh I'm still experimenting with the oil, but I think it's I think it's promising. But um I I think it's definitely something to experiment with. You know, maybe you can improve upon the methods, but right now I'm pretty pleased with it.
+
+[40:10] Yeah, I'll give I'll give it a try. I'll tell you something else on this same thing that I've been experimenting with, uh, you know, just out of curiosity. Um so like a lot of um back in the day, the you know, the issue with low temperature cooking, right, is that you want to put a uh a crust or uh or a sear or whatever you want to call it, depending on what you're looking for on the outside of the protein relatively quickly, so you don't undo all the good work that you've done with the low temperature cooking, right? I mean, that's the whole goal. So, you know, one of the issues with crust formation or searing in general is the fact that uh once you've cooked something, it no longer has good contact with the pan.
+
+[40:48] So therefore, when you're pan searing, you tend to put oil on, or in your case you can brush oil on, and that'll help make up for some of the fact that the meat is no longer raw when you're searing it, right? And so this is all good practice. But it's also always been the main practice of of everyone, and I recommended it and always have, that you get the pan screaming hot, right? Screaming hot. And the idea being that the hotter the pan is, the kind of better off you're gonna do.
+
+[41:15] And in experiments that I've done, uh, in general, when I was using, but the thing is I did my experiments with extremely powerful equipment, right? Extremely powerful, thick pieces of cast iron, extremely powerful. Uh I used a uh a a French gas-powered crepe maker. Those things have some serious, serious, like it's seriously strong. So I don't know whether my numbers actually correlate as well as I would want to to a normal kind of a home situation.
+
+[41:44] My my feeling is is that remember that the surface of the meat, it only needs to get above the kind of browning temperatures. So when you think mentally, right, what's the fastest way to to cook to sear off this piece of meat? Well, it's it's either charring the hell out of it in a uh in a super intense grill situation, which is one kind of flavor, or two, pan, you know, deep fundamentally deep frying it. Now I know people don't want to deep fry, but you can get such a good crust so quickly deep frying, even though the oil is never really going above 360 degrees Fahrenheit. And so that got me to think maybe you can actually get a good result in a pan by shallow frying, pan frying in a small amount of oil without making all of the fire, without making all of the smoke.
+
+[42:34] And so last week I actually did a test in my house where I seared a piece of meat in a pan uh and I didn't turn my vents on. You know, I have good vents. I didn't turn my vents on to see whether or not my wife could could complain and all this other stuff. So what I did was is rather than heat the pan up to screaming, which is what what I normally do, I slowly I put oil in the pan cold, uh slowly heated the pan up to deep fryer temperature, like 360, right? With just a s, you know, like you know, not maybe the whole pan had maybe half cup or or something of oil in it.
+
+[43:08] And then once it was at 360 and I had it kind of like settled, I let it kind of heat up the entire pan come up to that. Then I stuck my uh meat in, uh, and then at that point I cranked it up full so that I would input the amount of energy into the pan that was required to try to get the oil back to its high temperature and to try to uh brown the meat, right? Then when I pulled it off to flip between sides, I let I let it come back up to temperature. Well, I used an IR back up to 360, flip the meat, did it again, um, and then did it that way. So you weren't in this screaming hot pan.
+
+[43:46] Your oil never really gets that hot because it doesn't really help you to have the oil that hot. It just gets dangerous and makes a lot of smoke. And I was able to actually sear a piece of meat quite well, I think, in a kitchen environment without a vent. And now I could smell the oil a little bit, I'm not gonna lie, but um, you know, I did it without a commercial deep fryer, without a vent, uh, and I was able to get decent results. But I'll definitely want to check also.
+
+[44:09] I'll I'll I'll re-look at this kind of uh especially with the oil and the and the uh glucose is kind of um uh baking soda idea. What was your second question? Um uh follow up on that. Do you do you have a lot of BTOs on your uh home stove? I do.
+
+[44:24] I have a buttload. I have a pretty uh wussy stove. And uh so the reason I get things up screaming hot is I just I need to store up that energy because it takes my little burners a long time to get it into there. I like to try your method, but I'm a little worried that it would just take a really long time for it to recover that heat. I have a really crappy stove that I have access to, like really super garbage stove that I have access to that I want to try, but I won't be at that stove for another like week and a half.
+
+[44:54] So I'm definitely gonna try it on a crappier stove. Um what I what I'm really interested in doing, and I've been trying to figure out kind of the best way to do it, is um I want to kind of measure, I want to come up with some kind of standard measures that everyone can do for their own equipment in their own stove, right? So pretty much a ribeye is the size of a ribeye, you know, more or less in terms of its face uh face area. Uh, you know, a porter house is roughly porter house size. I mean, it changes a little bit, but you know, we can kind of guess, or or you know, a fillet, we can kind of guess.
+
+[45:26] So, what I want to do is I want to try to figure out some metric, some test you can run that, and and I'm trying to think like do I want to have someone boil water? And you don't have to do it if you don't want to, but just to kind of figure out not only how many BTUs or because you might not have gas, right? You might have electric. Not only how like how much heat is being used, but how much heat does your oven pan combination really put onto a piece of meat? Because that's the important point, right?
+
+[45:53] That's what really matters. And so uh I'm trying to because uh when you do a pot, when you're testing uh when you're testing like burners, the typical test you would do is just put a pot on and uh, you know, see how fast it can boil water. Put a glass lid on it and see how fast it can boil water on one versus the other. And you do use the exact same pot, the exact same amount of water at the same temperature at the same lid, and you can get a very good idea of uh kind of how long it takes. So that's one measure, right?
+
+[46:22] But then you can also uh test your evaporation rate. You could take the lid off and see over five minutes at full bore how much is evaporated off, and it's very easy to do the math to figure out okay, I boiled off you know, X number of grams of um of water once it came to a boil, the uh heat of fusion uh or sorry, the heat of vaporization of of water is Y, and this is how much energy was being dumped into the pan. The problem with that is is that uh I'm you have to I think run it with the pan that you're gonna use, right? And so I'm trying to figure out what a and once I have it, I'll you know, I'll I'll say what I do, but I'm trying to figure out then you'll know exactly how effective your stove uh your stovetop can be at these kind of um at these tricks. But I want to there's some minimum amount of energy you need to input into the oil to get it up to the temperatures to flash off enough liquid to get a good crust on a piece of meat, right?
+
+[47:18] And I just haven't figured out those numbers yet, but this is just kind of what I'm experimenting with. Oh, that's great. Dave, we gotta wrap it up. Oh man, you have did you have a did you have another quick question? You said you had two questions.
+
+[47:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh quick question. Um I blog about uh advanced ice cream techniques, and a lot of what we talk about is using different sugars, and um uh um a lot of the recipes that I'm talking about and techniques use uh invert sugar or uh trimoline. Right. And a question that's been in the back of my head is um you know, when you're using trimoline in a solution like this, is there a functional difference between starting with the syrup or just using a mix of powdered glucose and fructose?
+
+[47:58] Like once it goes into once it goes into solution. Yeah, I mean the trimolines at a very it's very high, uh very low liquids, right? Compared to so what but once it's in solutions, I shouldn't think that there's a difference. Yeah, it just seems uh it just seems like a really simple thing, and I could not get anyone to uh could not find any information anywhere about that. It seems like yeah, it shouldn't be any difference, but uh I don't think we talked about that, and it is and it's like it's like easier to work with powder than to work with this goop, you know.
+
+[48:27] So uh Yeah, but the goop is easy in large batches, right? When you're doing scaled out stuff in large batches, especially if it's written for that, they take the water weight into account. And so like when you're doing lots and lots of stuff and you don't want to have to make those solutions up, like having those like giant gallon buckets of trimoline around or whatever they come in, you know, but there may even be more than that. Um I mean, they it can't like I liked having them around when I was at the French culinary. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:54] Sure. Yeah, I mean I I talked to I talked to a pastry chef about this, and he was like, well, maybe, but the question is interesting to me because I use tremoline for everything and I don't use fructose for anything. So um he didn't care. Right. Just from the the standpoint of making smaller, moderate sized batches of ice cream, it's easier to measure, you know, you're measuring out these powders anyhow.
+
+[49:16] Yeah, yet another situation. And to like try to get uh the gunk off the spoon. Um, and the syndicate will eventually spoil in your fridge anyhow. Right. Yet yet another scenario where like cooking at home and cooking like in a restaurant isn't always the same problem.
+
+[49:33] You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. All right, well, thanks for calling in. Next week, I'm gonna get Carlos to your question on uh sous vide cooking and serious seats in Kenji versus Chef Steps. I find it very interesting.
+
+[49:45] We'll talk about that next week. We'll get to Ron's um uh curing chamber questions and uh more on mock tales uh from uh AK and just like a host of other uh other interesting questions. We got some ice questions in, but we'll get to them next time because we had callers, and remember, callers always take preference, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[50:30] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[50:58] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from a Bird's Peter in Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:56] Today we do not have Dave Tasha Tor, aka Dinosaur in the booth. We have Victor. Victor, how are you doing? Hello. You've been with us before.
+
+[1:03] I forget. What do you what do you like and don't like? What's you what are your food likes and dislikes? Um, I like pretty much everything. Like we talked about last show.
+
+[1:10] I'm Brazilian, so we kind of talked about rice and beans, but you know. I like meats. That's like meats. So you're anything. So you're kind of like my son.
+
+[1:19] I like meat and rice and beans and nothing else. Pretty much. Nothing else. Um Middle Eastern food. My girlfriend is Lebanese, so I really love Lebanese food.
+
+[1:28] Nice. Do you know that the fame by the way we're also joined today by Peter Kim, the uh leader of the Museum of Food and Drinks? Everyone loves to Galactic Emperor. Yeah, the you know, the the person everyone loves to hate. And also I actually disagree with that.
+
+[1:46] Do you prefer to be what you prefer to be hate to love? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. All right.
+
+[1:50] And we got uh Nick Wong, uh, you know, uh currently at uh what's your current uh title there at the Momafuku Sambar? Um The Chef de Cuisine. Chef de cuisine. Chef de cuisine at Mo, you know, uh like you know, worked with us back at the uh French Culinary Institute, I don't know, eight billion years ago, eight billion years. Sounds about right.
+
+[2:08] And you know, has been lots of places, so if you have questions about how they do stuff the last time he was on the show, he didn't say anything. No, that was two times ago. Yeah. Uh has uh spent time uh staging at Noma and a bunch of other places and working in California. So if you have any qua questions about working uh in San Francisco or in Mark Den, Denmark, or you know, here in uh New York.
+
+[2:29] He's also uh a little known fact, been mistaken many times for David Chang. That's actually a widely known fact. Well, you know, among your friends, you know what I'm saying? So it's like been like constantly miss misrecognized as Dave Chang. So he just runs with it.
+
+[2:45] You roll with it, right? I've signed a few menus. Yeah, you're like you're like someone's night. You're also you're like the body double. When someone comes to assassinate Dave, they're gonna take you down.
+
+[2:54] Pretty much. Yeah. All right. All look same.com. Yeah.
+
+[2:57] Uh wow. Well, interestingly, different ethnicities, Nick and uh and Dave. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I thought there was just the one.
+
+[3:05] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Wait, what were we talking about? We're gonna we're talking about some food stuff. We're talking about Star Wars.
+
+[3:11] No, no, before that, Victor had mentioned some food stuff. Oh, Lebanese. So do you guys remember that old 24 hour Lebanese joint on House didn't it closed down recently? Yeah. Barricette?
+
+[3:20] Yeah. That yeah. They had that in like in like all I ever used to go, they they would be screaming the same order constantly for that. Like, have you had this uh Victor, this like kind of Lebanese pizza like thing? Oh yeah.
+
+[3:30] Lama Jan. Yeah. And then we'd be like Lama Jan Lama Jean, Lama Jan. I was like, it was like it was my equivalent of like cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger from the uh what's it called? From Saturday Night Live?
+
+[3:38] Yeah. But yeah, another another New York landmark. Gone. Gone. Yeah.
+
+[3:42] Uh and joined by special guests from Chef Steps. Chris Young on the phone. How are you doing, Chris? I'm great. How are you, Dave?
+
+[3:50] Doing all right. So uh yeah, so we got a full group of people. We got a bunch of questions. And uh you want to you want to do uh any sort of uh pitch or pre-roll here, Chris? Uh yeah, if you haven't gotten jewel, you should go to chefsteps.com and check it out.
+
+[4:04] Um, and we're gonna have some really cool new updates coming for jewel owners in the very near future. I'm really excited. I can't talk about it yet, but uh Douglas Baldwin, a bunch of the math guys have been doing some really cool stuff. So uh, and as have the app team, so there will be major new updates for those of you who are jewel owners coming out uh in April. So for those of you that don't know, Jewel is the immersion circulator by uh Chef Steps.
+
+[4:31] And uh, you know, you you run it via uh smartphone, Android, or uh, or what's it called? Um Apple, the one I have. And your iPhone, or you can use Alexa with it, you can do it all voice controlled and hand-free, which is great when your hands are covered with dew. I've actually seen that. I saw freaking Kenji Lopez Alt go, he literally was like, Alexa, turn on my jewel to 57 degrees Celsius, and she was like, Okay, Kenji.
+
+[4:57] And I was like, what planet do I live? Like, I somehow fell asleep and woke up on a different planet. You know what I mean? It's like, but yes, uh it actually works. I saw it in uh, you know, and the Alexa turned on from across I mean the jewel turned on from across across the room.
+
+[5:10] But the other cool thing about it, very small form factor. Uh, and basically, like waterproof with like a magnet on it. So you don't need to worry about uh, you know, you don't need to worry about like a lot of my circulators have uh water damage in the electronic areas, and I used to have to tell people all the time how to mitigate the disaster that happens when that idiot drops the circulator into the bucket, which I mean how many times have you seen that happen, Nick? I've seen worse happen. Two circulators?
+
+[5:38] I've seen them like dropped on the floor. You've seen what what have you seen? What's worse than dropping in water? Dropping in soup. No, I told an extern, hey, that you don't wrap up the top with a little bit of plastic to maintain the temp, bring it up faster.
+
+[5:48] Right. Walk away, I come back like 30 minutes later. He's wrapped the entire thing in plastic. The entire circulator is just wrapped up in plastic along with all the water, and it's just steaming out and killing itself. Well, that's that's amazing.
+
+[6:02] I love that. Uh, but isn't this that's an IQ test. But you know what it is, Chris? And you've been in like uh lots of high-pressure kitchen situations, and Nick, obviously, like both of you have your pedigree with let us say mercurial folk in the kitchen, right? You know, because you know, Chris was, you know, many years ago was running the fat duck kitchen.
+
+[6:23] Uh what was your title there? You were also chef de cuisine or were you on research side? What was your title of the day? I was the I was the uh the the head chef of the fat duck experimental kitchen. All right, okay.
+
+[6:34] So uh right safe to say people get agitated at the at there, right? Yeah, the tempers might have gotten raised a few times. Yeah, so here's a theory I have about cooking in in like professional cooking people in general, is that like for some people that like hyper like I get it, you have to be hyper on edge and on point when you're a perfectionist, and everybody can screw it up, and everyone has to be on point all the time. But then you when you get knuckleheads in, they're so frightened because of the way everyone acts that they're like, I will just literally follow and I will not ask, because if I ask, I will be decapitated, blah, blah, blah. And then you get this kind of crap happening.
+
+[7:09] I wonder whether your food actually ends up more ruined than not because you freak the hell out of that person as soon as they show up in the door. What do you guys think? Right. But it's a fine line, right? So, like, you know, famously, like Nick Wong when his first week working at Sambar, like eight billion years ago, like uh totally messed up the family meal, like ruined it, like burnt it, like crispy, crispy ruined, burnt, like so uh Chris, just for in a picture in your head, an entire like uh couple hotel pans of braise where the liquid had run out.
+
+[7:54] So you got that in your head? So it's like it's all ruined, it's ruined. And so, like, and Chang happened to be in the kitchen that day, and so normally you would get completely eviscerated for something like that, but Chang happened to catch the look of horror on Nick's face as he opened the thing and realized that there was so much internal self-punishment happening that like any external punishment would have been just superfluous. You know what I mean? So that's that's what you want to like instill in people that like like internal uh self-abuse.
+
+[8:25] Like that's what it is. Self-loathing, self-abuse. That's what makes a good cook is is like this self-abuse, self-loathing thing. You know what I mean? I can't believe you remember that.
+
+[8:33] Absolutely, that's that's why I still self-flagellate every night. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think so.
+
+[8:39] If you're looking for someone dark place really quickly. If you're looking for someone and you want them to be a good cook, like if they're like super the reason I think that chefs hate super confident people isn't that just that they're snot nose, right? And like, and like think they know more than they do. It's that they don't give off the feeling that they're punishing themselves enough. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[9:00] It's like you gotta you gotta you want that punishment, that self-punishment. It shows them that you care. But I think like but I think you need to apply a lot less external punishment if you can engender in people or find people who will punish themselves. That's explaining. And look, you you you you know it's it's you you want people that are driven that are uh that are reliable and that push themselves hard.
+
+[9:29] The problem is, you know, you're mostly dealing with like 19 to 25 year olds, and some people have it. A lot of people at 19 to 25 are are are flaky and not worth your time. So like that's the challenge is like sorting out the the ones who are gonna work versus the ones who are just gonna flake out. All right, well, but do you think you can you do you either of you actually think that you can take someone who doesn't have that sort of internal drive and actually get that drive into them? Or is it just you're like winning or losing on the margins based on what's already there when they show up?
+
+[10:01] You could teach skills, you can teach a lot of things, you can teach kitchen etiquette, you could teach all of these things, but can you really teach someone to give a crap? Or it mean obviously being surrounded by other people that give a crap helps people to give a crap more. And if you're even someone who comes in giving a crap, if everyone around is a joker, they stop giving a crap. But can you really train someone to give a crap? Doesn't mean you stop trying.
+
+[10:23] I don't know. What do you think, Chris? Uh I'd say my success with that is pretty marginal. Um, and and you know, these days I don't have the time for it. So if if you if you're not gonna care, I'm not gonna invest my time.
+
+[10:35] All right, how about this? How about training? Obviously, people show up and they don't have skill and they can acquire skill, right? But you this is another thing. You meet people, you know that XYZ person's never gonna get fast.
+
+[10:48] You know what I'm talking about? Because they don't have this like kind of sense of urgency. Do you think you can train sense of urgency in the kitchen? Yeah, I think that I think that's that's learnable if you if you care. I mean, you know, I remember when I first got to the fat duck as a stagier, I was like sewing over my head.
+
+[11:04] I was always in the weeds, but you know, I I came earlier, I say later, I put the time in, and people help people who help themselves. So yeah, you you can learn that sense of urgency. I don't know, Nick, you had a little like a little bit of a vegan face on what do you you don't think you can train speed or not speed, but urgency, right? Speed comes your ability to be fast comes with practice. Your ability to understand that the food needs to get out right now.
+
+[11:28] Yeah. I I don't think a lot of people come into the kitchen, especially new people, like they don't have that sense of urgency, they don't understand why it is, and then it's up to you to explain to them why it's important and to show them like listen, everybody else here is running circles around you and you're dragging the rest of the team down, so pick it up or else we've got to find somebody else. Or they're gonna they're gonna hate you and and you know, gank you with a shiv, but yeah. So but in order to I wish there was some there's gotta be some way to help people other than this kind of like prison mentality. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:03] There's gotta be some non prison mentality way. I mean, look, it is the what? You just gotta treat everybody oh, this is just me, right? But I like to treat all my staff as individuals to try to figure out what makes them tick. Once you find like what makes them tick and you make that connection, it's a lot easier to get them to do what you want.
+
+[12:23] Because now it's they're not doing what you want. They do what they want to do, which also aligns with what you want them to do. Right. I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting problem. It takes a lot more time and effort and patience, a lot of patience.
+
+[12:37] Right. I mean, the kind of like, yeah, I mean, the prison mentality thing comes with the low pay and the need to get everyone up and operational quick, but it's just, I think it's really long run pernicious. I really think it's long run pernicious. Don't like it. Uh okay.
+
+[12:51] Well, so Chris, uh, do you want to like are you so coming out with a new jewel? Oh, that's what we're talking about. So the jewel doesn't have these problems, even if your knucklehead intern uh overwrapped uh the jewel, the jewel would not have any problems with that. Uh theoretically, you can dishwash it, right? You don't tell people you can, but you theoretically can, right?
+
+[13:09] Yeah, I mean it's it's it's you know we didn't go through the rigorous certification to say this thing is like submersible, and and frankly, we don't think that's a great idea. But if you drop it in the water, if you throw it in a sink, if you threw it in a dishwasher, that's not gonna break it. It's a stupid ass thing to do, but it's not gonna break it. What about if you throw it at your chef? Will it break?
+
+[13:29] You know, we do the three-foot drop test and it survives pretty well. Um so if you hit the chef in the chest, it'll be okay. You know, if you're it's sturdy enough though, you're probably gonna end up going to prison for assault. Ah, uh. So is it the new, like, remember when mag lights they used to be like, not only is it a flashlight, but you could beat the crap out of people with it.
+
+[13:49] Remember that back in the day, and you would buy your mag light based on how many D cells it had in it? Yeah, the giant 4D cell, you know, mag like, yeah, that's exactly what uh I was going for when we designed it. I wanted that sort of sturdiness so you could clock someone over the head with it. So, so in other words, like if you have a bunch of jewels in your kitchen, you don't need to have the baseball bat behind the bar like we always do. No, you can just clock them with the end of jewel.
+
+[14:11] There you go. Yeah, it's metal, it's very nicely machined metal thing on the end. Solid forged stainless steel. Those those parts aren't gonna ding. Yeah, that's sweet, man.
+
+[14:20] Yeah, and uh just a note, like unlike a lot of uh a lot of other uh you know, circulators that you see, or any piece of equipment really, uh all the parts are basically um subassemblies that you get from other people, whereas the jewel you took the interesting kind of step of uh of kind of custom engineering everything for maximum density, almost like uh an iPhone mentality of design. You know what I mean in terms of like yeah, there's out of 37 parts in Juwel, the only off-the-shelf part is uh is one is the single screw that's inside it. So yeah, everything's custom engineered. We even engineered the manufacturing process and the robots that build it. So we kind of went overboard.
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+[14:58] Yeah, yeah. Have you visited your robot army? I just got back. I was uh in in uh in China uh earlier this month, so I got to go to Shanghai and Suzhou and uh all over. So yes, I was visiting the robot army, and uh you know, I want more robots.
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+[15:14] Yeah, everybody wants more robots. Man, you're lucky you get to go to a good food town. I get to go to Shenzhen when I go to China. Not that Shenzhen's bad, people, it's mean, but it's no Shanghai. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[15:23] I'll say it. Shenzhen is terrible. Don't go there. Wow. So like if you're gonna compare Shenzhen to a U.S.
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+[15:31] city, what would it be? Uh Detroit. Whoa. Shenzhen's way more productive than Detroit. Oh wow.
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+[15:40] Wow, roughing up on everybody. Wow. All right. So what do you do? Like, is it like Dallas?
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+[15:46] Yeah, you know, at the risk of like sales are going to plummet now in Texas, but um, you know, it's huge. Like all of those cities are absolutely massive, and and it's hard to get a sense of scale. Like you think of New York City as big, but like New York City wouldn't be that big of a city by by China's standards. No, Shenzhen would swallow it. And and you know, Shenzhen's really, really productive.
+
+[16:09] But you know, it's dirty. Um it's dirty and it's chaotic, and people are busy like building shit in garages and everything. So I don't know. I guess it's like Detroit during the glory days of manufacturing cars. Or it sounds like New York, but New York doesn't have anyone building anything.
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+[16:23] Oh boom, New York. We can't you can't get anything built here. Chris, have you ever tried to get something built in New York City? Such a nightmare. It's like impossible to do everything.
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+[16:33] I I can't I cannot imagine it's worse than trying to get something built in France, which was which was my unenviable task as a fat duck. Oh my god. Yeah. So we're we're we're beaten up on Detroit, Texas, China, Shenzhen in particular, France, New York. Let's keep it.
+
+[16:49] Who else who else have we not insulted yet? We can insult everybody. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay, wait, but do you want to say anything specific before we just answer questions? Some of which uh involve chef steps and some of which are sous vide related.
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+[17:01] Uh no, nothing specific. I'm just, you know, happy to take any questions your your your callers and communities have. Alright, so listen, this is your chance to talk to Chris Young about any sort of either Chef Step uh oriented thingamajig or any sort of jewel-related thingamajig, which is I guess is a chef or if they want to talk about modernist or the fat duck, you know, whatever. Uh you have my time. 718-497-2128.
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+[17:23] That's 718-497-2128. All right. So uh so we got uh Carlos writing in, and this is something that you know all of us, except for Peter, Peter has nothing to say about this. No, I'm kidding. Um, this is something we first of all, I hope all is well with you.
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+[17:37] Self-loathing. That's why I love you. If you hate yourself, I love you. That's how it works. Uh I hope all's well.
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+[17:44] Uh, and uh that uh Dave, that's me, enjoyed my trip to El Paso. I did. We uh we didn't get to talk that much. I like Juarez is actually pretty cool, even though no one goes there. I mean, like Juarez is like not I mean, Juarez, like if you're gonna take Shenzhen or Juarez, I would take Juarez.
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+[17:57] They have more velvet paintings in Juarez than they do at the end. Yeah, Peter was also with me in Waters. War is a good town, right? Yeah. How many velvet paint have you been to Shenzhen?
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+[18:04] I saw zero velvet paintings in Shenzhen. That was a pretty sweet painting you picked up on the street there. Oh, hell yeah. Juarez was the velvet velvet painting capital of the world for a long time. Do you like velvet paintings, Nick Wong?
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+[18:18] Yes. Chris, are you a fan of velvet paintings? My entire house is outfitted with velvet paintings of velvet. And this is why I like you. Okay.
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+[18:26] I'm writing to get Dave's uh take on putting oil or fat into the bag when cooking with an immersion circulator. My main question, and Chris, think about this, because I don't know if you've thought about this. Uh my main question is about flavor dilution. In his guide to Sous vide steak, Kenji Lopez Alt says he tested with olive oil and butter, and that they diluted the flavor by pulling fat soluble flavor compounds from the aromatics uh and the beef into the bag liquid, which is then typically discarded. Uh curiously, his chicken breast post doesn't mention adding fat at all and only discussing aromatics.
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+[19:00] However, in his halibut and salmon posts, he does say that uh halibut uh uh flesh absorbs flavor better than land meat, and adding fat will present uh prevent multiple portions from fusing together. Meanwhile, now we're talking about you. The Chef Step guys preached that fat should always be added to the bag. It seems their main reasons for this are presentation. No corner of the bag deforming the food, no aromatic stamping the food and washing away uh and the and the ability to wash away the albumin from the salmon.
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+[19:24] It seems kind of obvious that different foods will take different preparations, but I'm curious as to Dave, i.e. me's uh my take, especially with regards to flavor dilution. Thanks again. Looking forward to the next uh Booker In DAX and the low temp book. All right, I'll give you my point of view.
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+[19:37] First of all, I've never done a triangle test with meat that has had uh, you know, like butter or you know, in it versus not. I will say that this, well, that's not true. I've done it with oil, like heavily flavored oil definitely adds a flavor to things like salmon. There's no freaking question that it's true. But on a steak, I've never really noticed a difference in the taste of a steak between with butter or without butter.
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+[20:03] Uh I've also tasted the butter that I've used and the oil I've used from the bag, and yes, it will take on your your what whatever rosemary or your garlic or any of that, onions, allions that will pick up. It doesn't taste especially meaty, so I'm very, very uh not a big believer that you're gonna dilute the flavor of your meat overly much with the oil. I just don't buy it. And Kenji specifically doesn't mention that he did a triangle test. It was more, I think, kind of theoretical in him thinking that that this was an effect.
+
+[20:34] I will say this if you're using the zippy technique to put you know to fill your bag, you need oil because you need something that's liquid that's in the bag. Straight up, you need it. And when you're doing a hard vacuum in a vacuum bag, unless your product is frozen, the bag's gonna squish the hell and make ugly pillow shapes on your meat if you don't have some sort of fat in the bag. And that really is the only reason to do it, other than you have this fat left over that you can use for for other things, exceptional baby bean fish. Yeah.
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+[21:00] Well, what's your take on it, Chris? Um, so you know, Kenji's a really smart guy, so I'm I'm hesitant to disagree, but I'm gonna go, yeah, I didn't see a triangle test. So whenever a chef, and even if it's me or it was Heston, it's like if there's not a triangle test, and you haven't done it a couple of times, and somebody's making a pretty bold claim like that, I'm inherently suspicious. Here's the other thing that I uh that I know that you know there's this idea of diluting flavor or adding flavor, but that's not really how humans perceive flavor, and there's a misunderstanding that like more concentration means more flavor. That's not really true.
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+[21:33] What the sensory scientists have shown is what humans are really good at is detecting how quickly uh uh the the aroma aromatic molecules, the rate of change, like how quickly it goes from zero to a hundred and back to zero. We don't detect absolute concentrations. So the idea that you can pull all of the steaky flavor out and dilute it into the butter, that like even if the concentration were go to go down a little bit, when you bite into that steak and start chewing it, the rate of fl the rate of change to the steaky flavor is gonna go through the roof no matter what. So I I'm pretty skeptical. Um, you know, I'm willing to do the triangle test, but I think the benefits of better appearance, having some fats in the bag that I can use to make a pan sauce, um, I think that outweighs any risk that you're somehow reducing the meaty impact of the steaks.
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+[22:22] Right. And uh it's a hundred percent true that if you bag raw meat without any sort of liquid fat, that it m distorts and makes ugly shapes on the meat. And it's also 100% true that if you could mitigate that by vacuuming less, but then you have air pockets, which like can make little nasty. You ever notice how sometimes with the air pocket, especially when your temperatures are pretty low and there's oxygen touching the meat, you'll get a weird discolored area where that air pocket was, Chris? Yeah, absolutely.
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+[22:48] I mean, it doesn't really matter because you're gonna post sear it, but I just don't like it because that that color also indicates that there's possible oxidation going on there, which does actually affect things. Whatever. I know it's not that's not a big deal either, so I'm not gonna make a big point about how that, but in general, I don't like it. I and if you're using zippies, which is 99.9% of what I do, you're using zippies, then um you have to have fat. I will say this though, I do it the other way a lot.
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+[23:13] Like if I buy meat that's already in the cryo, Chris, you're gonna get really mad at me. Like, if I don't have a lot of time, I'll just toss the freaking market cryo into the into the circulator and go with it. I know I probably shouldn't. Yet I do. Like, you know, especially if you're just trying to get dinner on the table, like don't let perfection be the enemy of like done.
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+[23:32] There you go. There you go. And especially because like a lot of you, if you're gonna go out and you're gonna get a steak, you're gonna get a high value cut, and a lot of high value cuts at like higher end like butchers are pre-portioned from the supplier. So if you're getting like a La Frida or Debraga or one of these like weird Pimentese cuts or any one of these things, a lot of those, like the the ribs, the strips, and the porter houses come pre-portioned in the cryo. And I'll tell you this is true.
+
+[24:01] Things that are in cryo, not frozen. Things I actually did a test recently of of uh from frozen in cry from store cryo, but the a couple tests. But um, there is something in a in let in what's nicely called wet aged. Let's let's give it a nice term, wet aging, right? And all all everyone here knows that when you open a cryo bag on fresh meat, that it's got that cryo bag smell to it.
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+[24:24] Chris, you know what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's not my favorite smell in the world.
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+[24:29] No. It goes away. You know what I mean? Like, and so I I've tested that, like the searing knocks that stuff out. It's no longer perceptible.
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+[24:38] As long as it's not bad, it's no longer perceptible. And there have been several scientific studies on the smell of uh cryobagged uh cryobagged meat when it comes out, and all of them have shown fairly rigorously that having it out of the bag for a while, just 30 minutes out of the bag without cooking, will remove that smell. But uh searing it knocks it out. So don't worry overly much about that. Would you agree or disagree, Chris?
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+[25:05] I mean, I I I agree. I'm actually wondering if those smell of those the smell, the aromatic molecules actually react during Cyrane, you actually get a better uh sear from it. I've never tried. Maybe they're like they're like mild anaerobic bacterial bull crabs, is what they are, like non-spoilage bacterial bull craps. Uh if I get if I remember, which you know I won't, I'll forward you the papers.
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+[25:27] Oh uh I'd love to see the papers. We should call it meat koji and make it a thing. Uh well, you know, we're gonna have pretty soon on from our cook quest from uh Boston who puts Koji on everything, is gonna come on, so we'll have to talk about it. We got a caller. Caller, you're on the air.
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+[25:42] Hey Dave, how are you doing? Doing all right. What do you got for us? All right, I'm uh AJ. My I'm from Charleston, South Carolina.
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+[25:48] I have a couple questions about lemon curd for you. Okay. The uh first one is I'm gonna use lemon curd as a cake billing and a wedding cake, and I want it to be a little bit thicker than I normally would make it, but they're looking for something a little less rich and a little less sweet. I've already reduced the sugar, and I'm uh wondering what kind of uh gel agent you might recommend for something a little bit looser than like a jello consistency, but that'll spice and not run. Um, because I have to kind of keep the yolk, the yolk and sugar level down, so I can't take anything with that.
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+[26:18] Yeah. So uh I'm gonna let Chris, because Chris did a bunch of experiments on curds for modernist uh cuisine back in the day, so I'm gonna let him chime in in a second. I will say this: anytime someone says they want it less sweet, they probably don't actually have a referent in their head. Like lemon curd in certain tart applications is incredibly sweet, but other lemon curds are not that sweet at all. But whatever.
+
+[26:41] I mean, like I don't like thinking a lot about having to worry about custards if they're right or wrong if I'm doing a one off. So in general, I just like I just cheat, and I'll probably I would probably use something like I would probably just fluid gel it because that's what I that's just the way I would roll. I would probably gel and fluid gel it. But Chris probably has an actual way to make the custard work. Chris, what do you think?
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+[27:00] Um so I you know, just lemon curd, you know, my immediate reaction goes to pectin. Like fluid gel will totally work, and if this this was the fat duck again, I'd be busting out the gel NF and you know, uh fluid gelling it up. But uh, you know, the acid and lemon kind of makes things difficult, but pectin is gonna be easy and it's got great flavor release, and you know, it's readily available. And if you really want to go low sugar, which is gonna mean it's gonna be sour as heck, you can get the low sugar um pectin in grocery stores that they sell for like low sugar jams and jellies. And is that that's an LMO pectin?
+
+[27:36] That's low methoxy. That's yeah, that's LM pectin, and it'll work fine in lemon curd, and you know, you get a really nice texture and you can bring the sugar way down if you want. Do you have a recipe for that on chef steps anywhere? Uh an LM custard? Not on chef steps, and I'm trying to pull up ancient history of some 2200 page book that I was involved in.
+
+[27:57] Um there is going to be uh a lemon curd recipe in volume four um in the fluid gel section, but my recollection is it is uh uh it's going to be uh probably an agar fluid gel, which isn't actually what I do now I I I'd I'd get some pectin and do just a little bit of experimenting and if you just uh uh if you just basically follow a uh a jelly recipe um and maybe cut the concentration of the pectin in half I think you're gonna get something that uh that's gonna work for you. Right, but you're do you're doing you're not doing post injection right you're doing bake you're doing bake in place, no? Like putting putting baked inside um sorry one more time. Are you doing like a post injection or are you doing like the Betty Crocker style putting baked inside action thing where it like it comes out of the oven with the with the crap inside of it. Oh no uh baking all the layers separately b um makes the fillings and orange oh yeah man golden go make like a make it jelly style like Chris is saying if you want to go if you want to go you know try to tweak it out use a low end pectin otherwise just fluid gel the hell out of that thing and then it's gonna stay like in it'll like the next ice age will come and go and your your custard will be fine.
+
+[29:10] You know what I mean? Yeah pectin also seems like a a good cheap option as well. And then a real quick this is still lemon curd but not for the same application. If I'm making Meyer lemon curd and I want to can it um how would you recommend I boost the acidity um so that way it's a bit safer uh for the shelf citric acid. Just citric acid yeah my like the acidity in Meyer lemon is just a more it's a it's a less ag uh less aggressive amount of citric acid and there's you know there are minor other acidic constituents in lemon but I mean citric acid.
+
+[29:43] Well uh Chris you don't know the acidity off the top of your head of Meyer lemon do you I I did not. No, and it's gonna and it's gonna it's gonna vary, but unless you want to pressure can it, which I don't recommend, um, you know, I would I would add just a little bit of of citric acid, or if you don't want to go get pure citric acid, just blend in some normal lemon juice to get the pH low enough that you can uh you can actually sous vide can it. We've got a bunch of content coming out on that, but if you uh if you cook it uh um in a jar right in a sous vide bath, you can uh you can actually pasteurize it long enough to make the shelf stable with sous bead. And that way you don't have to go as high a temperature, so you're not gonna get that uh that cooked citrus flavor as much. Right.
+
+[30:22] The only issue with lemon juice is lemon juice is lemon juice is six percent acidity, whereas citric straight citric acid is like a hundred percent acidity, and they sell it in the stores. I mean, yeah. All right, perfect. Gotcha. Well, that's all I had for today.
+
+[30:38] Uh I just got food uh food lab as a uh Christmas gift. Um or as a birthday gift, rather, and I'm stoked about that. And uh the jewel is gonna be my next kitchen uh. So I'm really happy, especially to catch you guys on air, and thank you very much for your help. Nice cool.
+
+[30:52] Hey, uh Chris, that stuff's in stock right now, right? So sorry, say what? Joule's in stock right now? Oh, yeah, it's in stock. If you order it, uh it will be at your house within three days.
+
+[31:02] Nice. Awesome. Right on. We'll have a good day. And if you ask one of your, if you ask somebody who has a jewel, they can give you a referral coupon right from every app if they open the, or even if you download the app and create an account, you can get a referral coupon that'll save you twenty bucks if you order it from chefsteps.com.
+
+[31:18] Nice. Even better. Nice. All right, good tip. We'll be right back with uh the whole gang and cooking issues.
+
+[31:41] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream.
+
+[32:04] All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[32:34] For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back, but unfortunately for you guys, or maybe fortunately, I'm reading another piece of advertisement to you. Modernist Pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie Chris and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you.
+
+[33:11] They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit ModernistPantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's Secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks. And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. All right, now, and is it that wasn't enough advertising?
+
+[33:45] Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. Oh wow, this is a great setup, Dave. Do it. Sure, everybody's very enthusiastic to hear about this. But we've got the MoFad Spring Gala coming up on April 13.
+
+[33:56] We have a good crew coming in. Got uh Gail Simmons hosting, Marcus Samuelson's cooking. We've got uh we're honoring Ruth Reichel. And uh it's coming up on April 13. We've got some schmuck doing cocktails.
+
+[34:09] Um I hate that guy. I know what's his name? Uh Eugene and something. No one knows my middle name. Yeah, yeah, I know.
+
+[34:15] Now they do. Um the man with three first names, David Eugene Arnold coming in to make cocktails. So uh yeah. So anyway, we're we're celebrating immigrant food cultures and details at benefit.mofad.org. Uh it's 750.
+
+[34:32] So it's uh not seven dollars and fifty cents. This is what I first thought. Be like Boggin! Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's definitely a pretty penny, but uh it definitely it's in my estimation the best dining event in the city.
+
+[34:45] And uh, oh yes. Uh you're really selling it there, Peter. Lots of speeches. Yes, yes. Um, and it mo um, you know, of course, most importantly, supports the exhibits and programs of the Museum of Food and Drink, which is something that I think you care a little bit about, David.
+
+[35:00] I do, I care a lot about that. So, uh, so one more thing I have to get out of my head because I just got told about this. I haven't seen it, but apparently Nick Wong was featured on a documentary about Noma, where they walk up to Nick Wong as part of the kitchen and they're and they he's chopping veg. He's chopping veg at a station, and the camera person, and this made it into the documentary, walks up, puts a microphone like at Nick's face, doesn't look up, he's still chopping veg. And the person goes, So would you like to say something about what it's like to work at NOMA?
+
+[35:32] He goes, Nope. And then keep slicing veg. Slightly slightly exaggerated. What did he say? It's just a YouTube video.
+
+[35:41] Oh do you know the there's this food bunker named Duck Scones? Yeah, I know him. Yeah, Duck Scones. He's he was the he was at NOMA doing a little like video tour of NOMA. It wasn't a documentary.
+
+[35:52] Well, it's like I'm still gonna cut your head off. I can't wait. I deserve it. Yeah. All right.
+
+[36:02] So uh so anyway, I love that. Nope. All right. Uh Chris, here's another good one for you, all right? Uh you still there, Chris?
+
+[36:10] Yep, I'm here. All right, I got a good one for you on uh shocking, which is uh from the um modern uh like a modernist cuisine uh I don't know whether it was it's while you were there, I think. I was perusing some of the old blog topics uh from Modernist Cuisine today and ran across an article on heat shocking produce. Uh so what they do is is they they put into uh a bag or I or I guess you don't need to. So like asparagus or asparagus is two or three minutes at uh at 131 F.
+
+[36:37] Uh broccoli is like seven to eight minutes at like uh one seventeen F, which is 47 C. And cantaloupe is like 60 minutes at like 50 degrees C, and so on. There's a whole bunch of things that they recommend. But it's basically to kill off the enzymes and stuff like that. Uh and McGee did something on that for berries to preserve berries for longer.
+
+[36:55] So, like uh, so what what do you what do you what do you think about that? Uh so yeah, I was in involved in some of that. And and you know, this came out of some academic papers that uh that we pulled that was looking at like how do you keep berries fresher for longer. And uh, you know, I don't think the mechanisms were were entirely understood. I certainly don't think we at Modernist Cuisine understood exactly what uh what the mechanisms were.
+
+[37:18] I don't know if the academic literature has resolved it, but these low temperature heat shocking didn't so much uh destroy and denature and I as rather it kicked sort of uh it kicked them into high gear. And so that could both accelerate ripening, but it also seemed to accelerate sort of um uh the production of some of the chemical byproducts that keep like any bacteria on the surface from rotting the fruit or veg. And so you could take things like fresh berries, uh briefly thermal shock them at pretty low temperatures, like not enough to cook them or change their texture. Um, but all of a sudden they would have like a six or an eight week shelf light. Like you know, if you get like raspberries and you have them, you know, you you you you have them on your counter, they're gonna get a little, they're gonna get a bunch of molds and and stuff growing on them pretty quick.
+
+[38:04] Yep. If you heat if you heat shock them, um you're essentially going to prevent that. They're they're gonna be fine for a really long time uh in in your fridge or even even on your counter. And it seems to be a combination of you're you're weakening a lot of the molds and yeast and surface bacteria on the fruit, and you're also sort of putting the uh the the fruits enzymatic system into overdrive so it can protect itself and it has byproducts is for some fruit and veg, it also accelerates the ripening. So like melons and stuff, um, you know, especially the cantaloupes that that that we tend to get in the United States that are as solid as a boulder, um, they'll soften up, they'll get a lot more aromatic, they'll they'll get fruitier, which you know, is a is a nice outcome too.
+
+[38:47] Huh. Well, the an interesting flip side to that is the mango people tell me that so all mangoes that get imported into the U.S. or or shipped across state lines for that matter, have to go through a uh a hot water cycle to kill any fruit fly larva that are present. Uh and I I don't remember what the exact uh temperature is. I imagine that's gonna be a really hot dip, something, you know, 72 Celsius, something, you know, yeah.
+
+[39:15] I mean there's a couple different procedures. I just don't remember what they are, but they say it stops any further climacteric ripening. Uh yeah, I mean, this is one of these things where the the thermal shocking of the fruits that can enhanced ripening and prevented uh uh uh sort of decay. Those are really low temperatures. Most of the temperatures were well below 50 degrees Celsius.
+
+[39:36] You know, the USDA, if if they're basically saying, hey, we don't want fruit fly larva on, I don't think they're putting too much nuance into like, hey, let's let's not damage the flavor of this mango too much while we deal with these fruit flies. I think they're gonna be like, put that shit in some boiling water before you ship it anywhere. Be damned if the mango tastes like shit. Right. I don't know.
+
+[39:54] It's weird. That's why, like, if you want like a good mango, you have to go down to flo in the U.S., you have to go down to Florida and get it. Oh, well at the uh at the ranch. Yeah, at the Fairchild, right. Or at like Robert is here, which is like there.
+
+[40:09] I think those guys are allowed to sell untreated mangoes because it's not crossing state lines. You know, well, or at least as far as they know, you know what I mean? Like, but you know, I don't know, like what kind of like crazy fruit flies are gonna come live in New York? I guess that's not who knows. I could get some crazy fruit fruit fly.
+
+[40:27] I hate I mean Did I tell you about my idea, Chris? Like, you know how like when when the you know how when the Department of Health comes to like bar or restaurant, and if you use speed pours, or even if you don't, if they're not that smart, they take flashlights and flash them into the bottom of your bottles to make sure that you don't have fruit flies in your liquor bottles, right? You've seen this. Okay. So I want to actually get a Drosphilia culture going and fill a bottle with fruit flies and do a fruit fly infusion where the fruit flies have been raised on food grade food, it's all food grade, like everything is like closed, and they just serve shots of like fruit fly liqueur and see whether or not I get a point for each fruit fly in that bottle.
+
+[41:10] That's like you know, eight million points against the restaurant. They're like, This totally sounds like a road to success. Yeah, right. I'd be like, uh, sir or madam, uh, I put the fruit flies in there on purpose, you know. Try to count them if you can.
+
+[41:24] Like, what's the maximum number of points anyone's ever received? This would be like far in it far in excess of that. Like, literally, like I could have maybe ten to the fifth points on my uh on my health inspection. Which would be amazing, right? But but the only way you would is if you keep them what?
+
+[41:42] Food grade? Uh everything food grade. Like in other words, like I would have to like the argument would be like these uh were raised in like you know, uh a completely closed culture environment on like you know, sugar water from the Domino Sugar Corporation inside of an NSF certified holding tank. Like it's like boop, bup, boop, boop, bub, bub, bup, bup, bup, boop. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:00] And it's like I think as like a way to demonstrate that you'd have to take a big like quart container and just drink chug the whole thing of fruit flies. Well, I would get horribly drunk, Peter. That's like a lot of liquor. I would shake a cocktail with it and drink it. Yeah.
+
+[42:13] You know what I mean? But like, or maybe do a shot, you know? Fruit fly shot. Do you think they have a flavor? I'm sure they do.
+
+[42:22] I don't think crickets have much of a flavor. I mean, like ants taste like things. Ants taste like things, but ants ants have lots of chemical defense mechanisms too. Yeah, they're they're venom. Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[42:32] I don't know. So anyway, anyone out there wants to try it, let me know what happens when the health inspector shows up. Uh by the way, before I do the next question, I know we're gonna run out of time, but Nastasia Lopez did not realize that Star Wars characters are racist. I knew the one. Which one?
+
+[42:49] Which one? The one you were imitating, Peter. Oh, yeah. You didn't do Jar Jar, did you? No, no, Jar Jar's the worst.
+
+[42:55] No, I was talking about the wingman no, the the co-pilot for Lando Calisian. Oh, now I can picture him. How does he talk? Like something like that. But I don't know what I don't know if I couldn't really Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[43:09] I mean, Lando was also the victim of stereotyping. Well, yes. I mean he what you mean, because like you you wish they had chosen a white guy to run Cloud City? What's wrong with you? No, because like there's like two black guys in all of Star Wars episodes four, five, and six, right?
+
+[43:25] Basically. I mean, Darth Vader, you know. I mean, obviously, inside. Are you counting James Earl Jones? Lando, yeah.
+
+[43:31] And then and Lando. And I mean Lando backstabs Hans, right? Well, he was forced to. Don't you remember like that was not the deal? Yeah.
+
+[43:43] I've altered the deal, but I don't alter it any further, which is what I say to Daxon and Booker constantly. Yeah, yeah. I've altered the deal. I say that all the time to that. No, he redeems himself in Return of the Jedi, but in Empire Strikes Back, I think everybody comes out from that thinking Lando's kind of kind of lame.
+
+[43:58] Yeah. Anyway, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it's well known. Star Wars has a lot of racist stereotypes, right? It is only is a bunch of characters with where they have veiled their racist stereotypes by making them into aliens.
+
+[44:14] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like that's all they've done is they've taken, they choose X, Y, or Z stereotype and just turned it into an alien, so it's cool. Wookiees being the exception that we're just talking about. Well, I don't know. I can't unwookie my brain.
+
+[44:26] Like everyone loves Chewbacca so much that I can't do. I can unwookie you. Dave, go on YouTube and look for the Wookiee Christmas special. I've seen it. You've seen it.
+
+[44:35] Several times. Okay, all right. Amazingly bad. Amazingly bad. Who are they?
+
+[44:40] No, it's just like a Wookiee family celebrating Christmas, and there's nothing Wookiee about them except that they just are wearing the city. It's widely known as being the worst thing that was ever put on television. Yeah. The Star Wars Christmas Special. Widely known.
+
+[44:50] Alright, back to cooking. Back to cooking. Ron writes in about curing temperature. I am in the process of converting a one-chamber Arctic air refrigerator into a curing chamber. I was asking questions in a charcuterie forum online, and one of the pros brought up the fact that he keeps his temperature in the in the mid-30s.
+
+[45:06] He says that while the meat takes longer to mature, on the order of two to three times longer, the final product has a superior taste. He has a small following that backs his claims, and I strongly lean towards his method, since then I can occasionally use the chamber as a regular refrigeration unit with my regular fridges full. I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Love the show Ron. Uh and uh P.
+
+[45:28] S. Uh I was um listening when you were asking for things people want to know how to cook low temp. I know a lot of people who are really intimidated when pants searing duck breast. Maybe you can come up with a way to guarantee a crispy rendered skin with meat, medium rare throughout using low temperature. I'll hit the duck breast first.
+
+[45:43] I always do a 57 uh I do I do a 50 se 45 minute 57 C on a duck breast, and then for crisping you can use Chris's technique of buying a dog brush. You still believe in the dog brush, Chris? I do, but I was gonna say the super the super hack for for doing duck breasts at home. Take them out, take them out, you know, fresh, put them on something that's gonna keep the skin really flat in the freezer and freeze them for about 30 to 45 minutes, which is gonna freeze the fat, freeze the skin. It's not gonna freeze the meat all the way through, not unless you have a blast freezer.
+
+[46:16] Take them out while they're frozen and just start searing them inside down, you know, weighting them down from frozen. The fat's gonna thaw really quickly start rendering out. The meat's gonna thaw a lot more slowly, and that's gonna keep the meat from getting overcooked. Then bag them up, cook them sous bead, and then refresh the crust with a really quick, like a 30-second sear in a wicked hot cast iron pan uh on the pickup. And that makes the best duck breast I know how to make.
+
+[46:43] Alright, there you go. Now back to his other question about um the refrigerator. It looks a lot of people I know try to push all their temperatures lower. Uh, and so they push like their fermentation temperature lower on sausage and they push their curing temperature. I think uh you can taste the difference with hams, like one I think one of the main differences between the flavor of an American country ham and uh like you know, uh an Italian uh, you know, classic, you know, prosciutto uh deparma style flavor is the temperature at which the curing chamber is held.
+
+[47:16] Uh and it radically shifts the kind of reactions and the and the flavor you get. So I don't think I think it's a mistake to say that one is superior to the other. I would say that it is different, uh, and that things are obviously going to ex the rates of reactions will accelerate at higher temperatures. Do you have any thoughts on this, Chris? You ever done any experiments with that?
+
+[47:35] Actually, uh so I'm extrapolating a little bit from fermentation I uh from from dough fermentation I looked at. But um being that it's you know, yeast are a big part of the creation of flavors and they're they're creating uh some of the the flavorful acid that they contribute um and also preserve. I do know that if you shift the temperatures down um to low refrigerator-like temperatures, the yeast uh shift their metabolism, and instead of producing as much lactic acid, they start producing probionic acid and other acids that have a very, very different taste. And so high temperature, uh higher you know, room temperature bread ferments, but I would also imagine warmer temperature um uh meat ferments, the yeasts involved are gonna produce different acids, and you're absolutely gonna get different flavor. Uh I completely agree that one isn't superior, it's what style do you prefer.
+
+[48:24] But I think the major reason that you get a difference is the yeasts involved in in the fermentation process start producing different kinds of acids depending on what temperature those yeasts are at. Right. And and I'll also say though that uh obviously your your your aging, your aging and curing temperature is different from in a sausage, it's different from your initial kind of fermentation temperature. But you know, I know a lot of people who who um you know like typical like fermentation temperature is high, like above body temperature for a lot of these things for for a lot of American style sausages. But I knew a guy who used to do his stuff at a much lower temperature because he was looking to get a very minimal pH drop.
+
+[49:04] Uh and so he was always trying to ride the safety line on uh on you know, salt and pH levels. And that's a style, but I'll say that if you were attempting to do a high pH sausage, that's when you need to start worrying, not you know, relatively high. That's when you need to start worrying that you're gonna have uh problems. That's when you need to start like checking your senses. Measuring stuff.
+
+[49:26] Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you if you do like a typical like high temperature, like US style fermentation, you're getting I mean, people you should still measure it, but you can taste if that sucker's acidic enough. You know what I mean? Because they're quite acid.
+
+[49:38] Uh I'm not a huge fan, are you guys? I don't know how much you guys think about it, but I'm not a huge fan of like super pH acidic sausages because I think the texture really suffers. It gets kind of dry and crumbly, you know what I mean? Anyway. Um, so what do we got here?
+
+[49:54] We got time for more stuff? One more. I was taking them in order then. All right, AK wrote in about mocktails. Uh I wanna I want to say I read your book, uh Liquid Intelligence from cover to cover.
+
+[50:04] I'm sorry that you had to go through that uh torment there, AK. Uh I loved it. I got the book as well as my first set of cocktail tools a little over a year ago and went into education mode. Probably within the last half year, I've started dabbling, sticking mainly to working with the classics. Um I've even been making my own ice, you know, like big, you know, clear ice.
+
+[50:22] Uh question. Do you have any advice on mocktails? I have a few friends who are more on the lightweight one drink wonder side, but still want to partake in the social aspect of drinking, particularly when seeing me mix up different things. Uh I would imagine that mocktails are not as simple as similar recipes, just take out the booze. You're correct.
+
+[50:38] And that trying to replace it with juice or water would throw off the sugar slash acidity ratios. Are there any liquids uh slashes ingredients that you've used that it provide a good substitutes, or does it require a totally different calculation slash analysis? Um I don't make it up to NYC as like, but I'd like to stop by your place in person. Well, we don't have one right now, but hopefully soon. Hopefully by like, you know, July, August, I'll have another place open again.
+
+[50:59] Uh, you know, I'll announce when I can announce. But so um, I don't know, Chris, whether you've ever done mock tail experiments, but the trick is is that most cocktails are lower bricks than their non-alcoholic uh counterparts. And if you want someone to feel like they are uh drinking an adult drink without alcohol, the two important things three and like in this order, I would match the sugar level of a drink, and then I would balance the viscosity. Remember, alcohol has a higher viscosity. Alcohol water mixtures have a higher viscosity, lower surface tension, but higher viscosity than um water uh mixtures alone.
+
+[51:38] And so you need something that's gonna add viscosity and mouthfeel that isn't sugar because you don't want it as sweet as let's say a soda. So a soda is gonna be roughly 10%. Have you tried glycerin, Dave? I I was gonna say that I use it all the time. So like when I'm doing low alcohol cocktails, like a marrow-based carbonated cocktails, I hit it with glycerin, like as just a matter, of course.
+
+[52:00] Uh and so I mean I think that's the that's the first thing. Lower the sugar, add glycerin. And the second thing I would instead of using straight sugar, I'd use a little bit of a sugar alcohol that has a little bit of a cooling uh um uh aspect to it, not too much. Can you get a good deal of cooling without overdoing it on those things, Chris? I've never done a lot of experiments with it, but like that's the last thing I try to replicate is a little bit of that cooling aspect that you get with the colour.
+
+[52:23] Well, so the the the thing with cooling for most things like xylitol, the cooling effect only works if they're still in crystalline form because it's actually uh melting the crystal takes heat. That heat comes from your mouth, and so it lowers the temperature of your mouth. So if you dissolve it into a syrup, you don't get the cooling effect. Most sugars I know, not without like menthol or something. So I don't want menthol on the colour.
+
+[52:44] I can imagine like a uh if you did like I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but if you did like a sugared rim, you could use like a fine ground xylitol for that, and it's not gonna taste minty, it's just gonna taste a little cool. Right. And don't overdo it on the xylitol, or they they will definitely won't be cool on the outflow when they're in the bathroom. You know what I mean? You want to go mellow with the xylitol.
+
+[53:03] So like they made xylitol gummy bears for a long time, uh, and then uh they stopped because people would not just eat like a normal amount of gummy bears, they would feed bag like the thing of uh of gummy bears, and then uh and then they had uh yeah, exit strategy problems with the gummy bears on the way out. So uh I saw the Amazon reviews, but it's like, what do you think's gonna happen if you eat five pounds of gummy bears in a city? Like you deserved it. Yeah, this is the same problem with OSR with the wow, you know what I mean? It's like uh, you know, um, and the fact that you have to hydrogenate it or it just runs out on its own.
+
+[53:38] It's like a marathon runner on its own there. But uh yeah, I mean the the issue is you you you you do one thing for someone and then they think it's a license to just go completely bananas, you know what I mean? And that's not that's not what it's for because I eat you know, I consume reasonable amounts of these alternative sugars and uh and without problem. Reasonable amounts, you know what I mean? Um anyways.
+
+[54:00] Um so yeah, but I don't really like menthol in my uh in my cocktails, do you, Chris? I don't like I don't like a menthol mocktail. I don't like menthol in just about anything. You do or don't? No, I don't.
+
+[54:12] I'm I'm not a I am not a fan of menthol, and it's maybe just from years of abuse with like toothpa toothpaste and and and chewing gums, but I think menthol is essentially a terrible flavor. Do you remember like eight years ago or ten years ago when everybody was buying menthol crystals and putting them on every damn thing? No, I think I might have lived out of the country when that happened happened mercifully. Yeah, there's just like it was like like it was a pastry chef thing mostly, but it was like just like it was menthol crystal because they look cool. You know what I mean?
+
+[54:40] Was it was this Johnny? Was this Johnny Zini or someone like that? Yeah, he might have. He might have, but like a bunch of people. I'm not gonna call anybody out.
+
+[54:48] But like a bunch of people were like, it's like it was like, you know, first it was Tonka beans, and then we're like, no, you really shouldn't use the Tonka beans. And then it was like, okay, menthol crystals, and we're like, yeah, but they taste real bad. You know what I mean? It's like that's the I mean I like eating a menthol crystal every once in a while just to remind myself of you know what I mean? But you know, I don't know.
+
+[55:10] Not a not a big fan. All right. So, Chris, anything uh anything you want on the exit to talk about uh Jewel? Uh no, come uh come to Chef Steps, come for Jewel. Just come for our content.
+
+[55:22] Uh we we always love people who are passionate about cooking. We love having more voices in our community. So uh thanks for having me on, and I'll see you soon, Dave. Nice. And so uh and go on to uh Mofad.org.
+
+[55:33] I hate org. I hate org as a thing.org. It's just dot org. I hate it. Mofad.org.
+
+[55:38] Go to mofad.org and uh go for the gala. Thanks to uh Peter for coming. And by the way, I'll say Chris while you're still on. Uh we had an update recently to our spinzall crew. Um got some more prototypes in, and so that's moving forward nicely.
+
+[55:53] I'm probably gonna go to China and get the final final approval on the stuff in April. So if you have any uh spinzall related questions, you can send those on in. But uh those of you that were backers got uh an update and we're moving along nicely. Uh thanks, Nick, for uh coming on. And uh we'll see.
+
+[56:09] Well um next week I'm in Edinburgh at Tales of the Cocktail Edinburgh on Tuesday. So I uh and I you know what? I don't like calling in. Nastasi and I decided that when you call in. You can get his cell phone number.
+
+[56:23] Uh Nastasia has yes, that's well Nastasi well known for this. But anyway, so I might see you in two weeks on cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:32] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Uh from Roberta's Pituia in Bushwick Brooklyn. We got a banner day today. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not sitting right next to me because she is delayed on the ever problematic L train, which was gonna cease to exist pretty soon. Yeah, yeah, we got Dave in the booth.
+
+[0:54] How are you doing, Dave? Good, how you doing? Yeah, what at uh are you s uh what do you know are you a p uh uh Easter person, Passover person, a nothing person? What are you? Well, as a matter of fact, I just celebrated Passover in LA, but I grew up an Easter person on the East Coast.
+
+[1:09] Yeah, well, anyway, then if you celebrate Passover, sorry to have you out during the Passover time working. You know what I mean? Yeah, I should go home. Yeah, I mean, like I wouldn't until after this show, but then right after this show, I would just hightail it out of here and just like, you know, peace, I'm out. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:23] Yeah. Um I need to drill in my house, Dave. Exactly two drills. I need two holes in the ceiling of my apartment, and there is a complete moratorium on any sort of drilling. Literally two holes, and I would have gotten it done before Passover, but I had lent someone my hammer drill.
+
+[1:41] And so like I had to wait, and now I have to wait. There's nothing more frustrating for someone like me than having to wait to drill two lousy freaking holes. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Alright, so we got we got a banner day today.
+
+[1:52] Uh while we're waiting for Nastasia, I'll introduce the three countum three guests uh that we have. Uh I'll go first. First, I'll say we have the uh often present Peter Kim. Wow, wait a way to take me for granted, Dave. I feel very really special.
+
+[2:06] Peter, I'm really happy to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Peter. Somebody.
+
+[2:09] I'm in Peter too. Yeah, yeah. And uh Yes, thank you all very much. Thank you. And uh Peter Kim, channeling his uh days of being a Peace Corps volunteer in Cameroon has purposely turned off the air conditioner in this box so that we're roasting to death because he can take pretty much anything.
+
+[2:26] I also have a bunch of yucca cassava, because I'm working on making uh baton de manioc, you know, those sticks of uh cassava, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I am particularly camera needed. The thing about the those kinds of tubers really are like they're I mean, I cook with them, but they're disturbing looking, right? They look like something out of an alien movie.
+
+[2:45] I guess. Now I'm missing my man Bill Paxton and it's game over, right? Yeah, I think for a lot of people it just looks like food. Did you know Bill Paxton? I'm pretty sure I didn't look at the credits, was in the Terminator.
+
+[2:54] I did not realize this until you know Dax, my youngest, wanted to see the Terminator, and I was like, all right, you're ready. And uh I saw it at the beginning when Arnold Schwarzenegger comes down and is like, give me your clothes like that. One of those punks. Yeah, well, he's one of the punks. I was like, Oh my god.
+
+[3:09] Yeah, awesome, amazing. Also, uh, we have in the studio with us uh JW Rogers from El Paso, who took Peter and I to uh Juarez in El Paso a couple of weeks ago. Here we go, El Paso, Texas, shout out to the border. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slim in some Sotal Sats.
+
+[3:24] Now listen, I don't want you guys calling in and asking him whether he's visited the old El Paso factory. Because like he has a rope. It's not because I think it's a bad question. I've asked him literally every time I've seen him. I was like, have you visited the old El Paso factory yet?
+
+[3:37] And no, he has not visited. He doesn't even know if that factory is in El Paso. My son, Dax, again, has become addicted to old El Paso taco sauce. I just can't get down with that. Fair enough, yeah.
+
+[3:44] It's cause it's not a nostalgic flavor for me, it just tastes like produced. Well, it's because you're from New York City. New York City! For any of you who remember that commercial, there's a bunch of cowboys sitting around, like, I don't know what they're eating, like beans and they're poop farting or whatever they're doing, like a la blazing saddles, and they say, Where's this here taco sauce mite? And they go, New York City, like that, and then they just like they don't want to.
+
+[4:10] It's time to switch to the concept. Yeah, yeah. But we also have here with a miraculous taste. Now, listen, people, when you're tasting today, no mouth noises into the microphone. People get very mad with the mouth noises into the microphone.
+
+[4:23] You might know him as at our cook quest uh on the Twitter. It's um and Instagram. And Instagram. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you prefer?
+
+[4:31] It's the same. Mostly Instagram, because uh, you know, Twitter's gone a little bit commercial and uh kind of what does that mean, commercial? I I just can't interact with it. Well, hold on. This is Rich, this is this is Rich Shi from Boston, engineer, friend of the museum.
+
+[4:45] Uh helped us a lot with the flavor exhibition, came in to help us a lot with menu development during the Chow exhibition, uh, and uh is otherwise known uh just to me actually as Captain Koji. So uh he's here with a bunch of uh he's been working, I don't know, what, three years? Yeah, yeah, a little under three years, probably about two and a half on Koji, but uh like kind of gone kind of uh Koji crazy. Like he'll put Koji on anything, like you know, like a mouse dies in the cupboard, he'll cover that some gun with Koji and see what happens to it. And so he's brought us uh a bunch of Koji um products, and uh so you know I think there's a good number of people, especially on this show, who are kind of hip to the hip to what Koji is.
+
+[5:26] But why don't you give us the 30 second on Koji? So Koji is uh basically a mold inoculated rice. Uh the mold, this very specific mold is called aspergillosporzi. Uh it's used to power uh uh sugar production as well as uh enzymatic activity to create amino acid. Oh, sorry, to create amino acids in uh uh with protein mediums.
+
+[5:47] Uh so kind of the world is your oyster in terms of what you can do with it, but primary uh ideas in terms of what's out there, um, primarily Japanese are sake, miso, and um you know, in terms of just in general soy sauce. Those are the primary known mediums. Yeah, it's also used on uh katsuchi, right? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[6:09] So but basically, if you're Japanese and you don't have uh aspergillas, you are hosed. You're just hosed. Yeah. You're ruined, ruined, destroyed. So why don't you give us the again the quick the 30 percent 30 second on like uh inoculation in general and what you do?
+
+[6:23] So in terms of inoculation, what you need to do is basic basically take a grain, uh turkey take it to a certain level that uh, for lack of a better term, uh is al dente, such that the mold will grow on the surface of the grain and then be able to proliferate. Not to be too sticky or wet because other uh microorganic organism will grow outside of that. And then if the grain isn't uh moist enough for the and soft enough for the uh aspergillus to penetrate, um it won't. And uh it'll just basically not grow and and uh sporulate and give you something that you don't desire. You're lucky that Nastasia's not here because you said sporulate, and that would like she would just like rip the microphones out and wobble it.
+
+[7:06] Like she hates the word spore. Imagine sporulate, that's the worst. Now, actually, we had a question uh a couple weeks ago on uh wild uh on wild kind of molding with uh Koji. You ever had or read about uh uh pathogenogenic aspargillus uh showing up on uh wild type fermentation of Koji? I've read some studies that say odds are that you're gonna get a regular, like healthy one.
+
+[7:28] I've read studies about it was years ago. Do you have any update to information on that? Yeah, I haven't really looked into it. Um I just feel like you know you can easily accessible it's easily accessible to buy spores that are specific to what you need. And in terms of the flavor conversion or whether it's focused on proteins or carbohydrates for sugars, I feel like it's so easy to just buy it.
+
+[7:48] Yeah, I mean, but they're you know, uh on the meat front, so many people have tried to um look every everything in life now, especially in fermentation world, uh in in any of these food worlds is a point of difference, and so everyone's trying to make their own products. So I know a lot of people have branched out in uh obviously in beer with different yeast strains or in um cured meats with different um you know bacterial and or you know, they're they're basically a shotgun. There's a bunch of different stuff, bacteria yeast and everything, strains for their fermentation in um sausages and whatnot, but you don't see that giant a difference in like different exact strains of of uh aspergillus for koji versus let's say oh yeast for beer. I I wouldn't imagine so. I think any of the other flavors that you get are from other micro no microorzy organisms doing their jobs.
+
+[8:38] Mostly what aspergillus in terms of what I've been investigating is uh the ability to create amino acids. And if you're just creating amino acids, you know, maybe some have different ways of creating enzymes for different proteins, but in terms of a difference in umami, I I don't know if you can parse that. Okay, cool. Uh so just buy your spores, people. Just buy them.
+
+[8:59] Yeah, or get a small package and generate your own. Yeah, all right. Generate your own. Well, you make it like like by the way, it's not just for rice anymore. You do every I don't know if you mentioned that because I was opening up the questions I have to answer later on, but you do you inoculate everything, like you inoculate like your family.
+
+[9:16] Yeah, um I uh so I brought some examples of things that uh um that I've actually applied koji to. But yeah, I mean uh in terms of you bring the koji koji cheese, that's what I heard. I should I should try some of the things. Yeah, so so I have the the Koji cheese, which is basically um what I'm calling a a miso method cheese, because I'm already taking finished koji uh and using and mixing it with ricotta and a little bit of salt, and basically you create a particular cheese-like substance that you can get on the order of the flavor in two months, due to the enzyme activity, and then uh but I'm looking at people, it looks like a praline. It looks like uh like a uh praline's uh uh multi-use term.
+
+[9:55] It looks like a chunk of brown, like cooked brown sugar, yeah. Like it might contain almonds or some or uh or pecans, but it uh oh by the way, JW, are you a pecan or a pecan? I'm a pecan. You're a pecan? Pecan.
+
+[10:08] He's from the south of Texas though. You're from the south. West uh, west, west Texas. All right. Just eat that sparingly, it's pretty concentrated like Parmesan.
+
+[10:15] So anyway, and it breaks up and it looks almost like uh like a cooked through like uh soda bread, but it's one color all the way through. And it's it's kind of it's nuggetized. It has a very it has more of a Romano nose than I would say uh Parmigiano nose. What do you think, guys? Maybe.
+
+[10:33] In between. I get some parmesan. I'm getting some parmesan. You don't get Romano? I get the smell of Romano, but I'm tasting some Parmesan.
+
+[10:39] Have you seen the movie Quirky Romano? See what it is. Oh, here goes my mouth noise, sorry. Hold up. Yeah, okay.
+
+[10:50] So Peter, what do you think? I mean it's incredible. Yeah, I'm trying to rem. So it has the protein breakdown flavor in it to me, honestly, is closer to like a Romano. Because to me, especially like uh the Romanos you get, like a Locatelli style Romano here in in the in the US, are kind of heavily enzyme.
+
+[11:11] They have a lot of breakdown, a lot of breakdown flavors, so I'm getting a lot a lot of breakdown flavors in it. What do you think? No? You think it's closer to a Parmigiano style finish than a Romano style finish? Closer to Romano.
+
+[11:20] Yeah. Yeah. So maybe the nose is more interesting. How long does this take? Uh three months, start to finish.
+
+[11:26] So only two months. And also uh for for those of you who work in restaurant kitchens, uh, it takes about two months in uh a reach-in or a walk-in. So you can do this under refrigeration conditions, safe, controlled, uh, in a way such that you know you don't have to worry about the environment fluxing. Um also I I've I've pretty much um put it in an environment where it's totally miso. Nice.
+
+[11:48] Um doesn't reach in sound dirty? What? Reach in sounds dirty, doesn't it? Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:53] Kind of like reacharound. Yeah. Oh, bangles are there. I mean, it was all implicit. Rick?
+
+[11:59] Ridge. Rich, you were the new line stepper. Peter was our habitual line stepper. Yes. You were the new line stepper.
+
+[12:06] Hold on, let me give him the line stepping scepter. Here we are. Because usually Peter's the guy that, like, you know, once just one step too far. Like you take it up to the brink, such that if someone who doesn't already know. I like to leave a little to the imagination, though.
+
+[12:19] You know, yeah? Yeah. Alright. Okay, so what do we got next, boss? So uh since we're already talking about misos, uh, one of the things uh in terms of Al Paso, a buddy of mine who works uh at Commonwealth uh restaurant in Cambridge, shout out uh my buddy Nico uh Muratory that I've been working with for a very long time on projects.
+
+[12:37] Uh we dropped a whole bunch of koji into the kitchen, we started experimenting, and I said you can pretty much add any protein to Koji and create a delicious miso. So he pulled out this re-fried bean can of refried beans. There we go. And we made re-fried bean miso. What brand was it?
+
+[12:53] Was it Goya? No, it was El Paso. Oh yeah, yeah, the segue right there. So uh I also had I love how JW brings out the accent. So I have some of that.
+
+[13:04] Um, but I added so we did it, we added to uh we had it on a um a dinner we did over the course of a few days on a workshop dinner tour of Koji. Uh so we added some apple butter to make it kind of like a hoysen sauce. Uh next to it, we have a uh basically a full-out whey uh whey protein powder with a little bit of water and koji and salt to create a crazy umami bombed uh processed cheese. And then on a lark, even though I'm I'm big on proteins, I took avocado and I made a miso with it. Uh and it tastes pretty cool, even though it doesn't have a whole lot of protein, it's got a pretty crazy flavor and texture.
+
+[13:43] So pass this around. We'll do straw on it so that we don't make mouth noises with the crackers, and then during the break, we can take bigger uh chunks with with uh crackers. So hold on a sec, you guys talk for a second while I taste here. Good job talking. So um so I found all this stuff in terms of if you're looking to create misos uh short term, you know, on the course of a couple months, uh, what you look at is if you have some sort of animal protein, it seems like uh in terms of the enzyme enzymatic action, it it occurs much faster.
+
+[14:15] Uh so if we're talking about uh meats, you know, in terms of what's uh the folks of NOMA had been doing for a while, making you know fish sauces and meat sauces. Uh but dairy was one of those discoveries I came upon, you know, a couple years ago when I was first playing around, thinking about what has protein, what has you know a minimal amount of fat. I actually just the easiest way that I found to originally track it was I would just look at nutritional facts and match it against soybeans. Yeah. And then I just went on a lark and just went crazy and started adding everything.
+
+[14:45] I did I've done bacon, I've done butter. How is bacon? Uh it's actually crazy. Actually, added umami, um, it's not right. Umami overload.
+
+[14:56] Yeah, it's umami overload. Yeah, I mean you could add it to a stock or you know, to mount a sauce or something. Yeah. What about what are what other other failed misos? That's my nice.
+
+[15:09] So uh if you take butter, because it's pretty much full out fat and you leave it out really hot in under normal like miso uh fermentation conditions. Uh because the uh because uh uh Koji actually creates uh uh enzymes to break lip ases is to break down fats, you get rhinocery anxiety pretty easily. Well, so like breakdown fats, fat breakdown products in cheeses, I can always tell a full fat cheese its age because those uh lipid breakdown products like make my my taste buds pop like little mushrooms. I can always tell. Hold on a second.
+
+[15:41] Nastasia the hammer Lopez has has uh graced us. Yeah, you saved your seat. Thank you. That's pretty nice. Uh Peter tried to get JW to sit there so that you would yell at him, and I was like, you know, Peter, why would you enjoy somebody else's pain so much?
+
+[15:57] It's not it's not accurate. Well, I'm just taking a page from the Stasbook. Yeah, yeah. All right, so Stella, you can go back and taste the uh the other stuff uh in a second. So what else was what about this uh cheddar block?
+
+[16:07] Tell me about your uh supermarket cheddar block. So supermarket cheddar block, uh basically I took some super because um a good friend of mine uh named Jeremy Umansky has been uh experimenting a lot with curing meats and aging meats with uh growing aspergillus uh with a rice flour pack uh under the same conditions you would grow um aspergillus on a grain uh to create this uh basically this enzyme pack such that you can cure um meats faster and create aging flavors really fast. Uh so on the order of you know a third less time that you would normally uh hang to dry. Uh so what I did in in terms of seeing what he was doing is because I was on this cheesecake, I just took some supermarket cheddar and I did this this um you know Koji Kin aspergillus pack on the outside. And basically when you do that, it just has this enzymatic action, but uh not so much in adding flavor to this particular piece of cheese, but it kind of petrified it.
+
+[17:05] So it has this interesting drying effect through the through the enzyme activity that I don't quite understand. So maybe if we have some scientists out there, that would be really helpful to to try to understand this. Now, Peter, you tried this before, so when you try it, you can tell me what's going on, right? Yeah, of course. All right.
+
+[17:25] Yeah, so uh in terms of uh one of the investigations that I was thinking about, because um there's a lot of you know, talk about whether you should do the um koji growing on the on the surface of the meat, or you should pack koji on the outside. So I just kind of went on a lark and decided because I had some brazolo I was working on, um, to basically put a how are you actually supposed to say it, Dave? Uh you say it. You're the you're the Italian Brasola. Like I don't know, but like but oh no, the way we say it, no, it's different.
+
+[17:54] Like, so when I say like Boston style, are you from Boston, Rich, or just went there because of school? Just uh went there because of school, but um well actually I I went to school in Amherst, but I like like but that's different. That's the different hands. That's the bracciole. That's like brajol.
+
+[18:10] Like you know what I mean? Like you gotta say it like it's in the s it's in the it's in the gravy. You you roll up the the pork and you put it in the gravy and you get brajol. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah.
+
+[18:20] Anyway, Brazil, go ahead. So what do you got here? So uh so I just decided so I figured, you know, instead of growing the um the particular aspergerless orzai on the surface with the rice pack, I would just take some finished koji, mix it in with a little bit of salt, like three percent salt to ensure that other microbes wouldn't come into play. And I packed it around a brazola, and then uh and then I cared it. So uh it only took 12 days to get to the final uh it actually got over the 30 percent, it got to 33%.
+
+[18:52] And it creates this interesting um it's a lot moister than uh traditional uh air cured brazola. It's good too. What's the spices you put on that? Uh I just put a curry spice in the koji pack. You're a weird dude.
+
+[19:04] Cur curry curry curry dried beef. I like that. Yeah, I like the curry though. What do you guys think about the curry? Like it a lot.
+
+[19:11] Curry brizoli. You know he made um uh miso fortune cookies with our Fortune cooking machine as well. Yeah, I didn't get to have one yet, huh? It's actually Koji Chong. Oh, Koji Chong.
+
+[19:19] Sorry, sorry, yeah. Because we had it, yeah. Peter, don't give us your alternate translation, alright? Because Peter's got inappropriate alternate translations for anything. Oh, right.
+
+[19:27] Yeah, I know. Yep, you all know what go to means in uh Korean. Yeah, yeah, I know. I've been told that like you use a slightly different version of the word when you mean the slang word that you're talking about. Yeah.
+
+[19:38] But I don't know. Well, just let that work. What might what might never mind, never mind. All right, all right, all right. I gotta get to some questions.
+
+[19:45] Let's let's do this here. By the way, call in your freaking koji questions now, like technical questions on how to use koji. Why do you have beats here? Why beats? Can you spray it with extra Jasmine?
+
+[19:53] Yeah, no. No, uh basically, so I was, you know. Stan's just giving you the beat eye with this. You're not too. I don't like beats.
+
+[20:00] No, I like beats. It's just I like a particular kind of beat. Right. First of all, you're like, Well, that was a Patrick Martin thing for a second there. Yeah, so you should love beets.
+
+[20:07] You should be swimming in beet juice on a constant basis. I had a lot of beats growing up. Yeah. So uh And you just hated them? No, okay.
+
+[20:13] So I can deal with uh thin sliced, like so pretty chill gap beats, right? I can deal with that. I can deal with fully cooked beats. Yeah. It's that in-betweener.
+
+[20:23] Also, I really love par dehydrated beats. Um love par dehydrated beats. It's those in betweener beats where like you get a giant chunk of beat and it's like not cooked and it's not not cooked, and then somehow they manage to cook the dirt flavor into the beat instead of getting the. Like here we get three big baseballs of beats as a ditch. I can't I can't plow my way through a baseball of beat.
+
+[20:45] Yeah. But like beat in chunks I can deal with. What are your guys' thoughts on on baseballs of beats? I was actually just exposed to beats when I came up to New York at Lupa, and I had to cook about like 60 pounds a week of beats. And so I had a lot of baseball beat experience.
+
+[20:59] To be honest, I I am a I'm a baseball beat fan. Yeah? So you would just pick up like a beat that's crap's running down your arm, ruining your whites, and you take a big old shawl, your teeth are all stained, running down the sides of your mouth, and uh you're like, yeah, I'm down. That's what I should know. Rich Rich, we had that uh salt baked beats at uh what was it called?
+
+[21:20] Eggar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds good. One of my one of my earliest uh memories, a nightmare memories, is that we did a salt-cooked fish. My mom decided to do it, and the salt crust collapsed, and we couldn't get all the salt off the fish.
+
+[21:36] And so it was more like death. Yeah, and like my mom, who's a fantastic cook and a pediatric cardiologist, like world-renowned for starting the transplant program at Columbia, the first pediatric heart transplant ever, and the only thing that my stepfather gives her constantly reminds her of is that one freaking fish with the fish. So she saved lives, but saves so many lives. Like, literally so many lives that no one no one else would have transplanted these kids, and and yet that's what that's what she's gonna be remembered for, that one fish. Uh so what do we got with the beats?
+
+[22:09] And so yeah. So it's a better zuke preparation. Uh traditionally, it's done with uh daikon. So I just took the recipe straight out of um the book of Miso. Uh shirt leaf, call out, shout out to shirtleaf.
+
+[22:21] Yeah, it's my goal to bring that back into publication. I told it's not in publication? No. I told you I called him on the phone and he picked up and insulted me. What?
+
+[22:30] I saw I was like, listen, this is a long time ago. And he literally picked up the phone. I was like, okay. Because like I thought I was gonna get like, you know, somebody somebody dot peon at soy organization. Yeah, so whatever.
+
+[22:43] And he picks up and I was like, um, have you had I was trying to do alternate tofus. Sure. And this was way, way before. My band name. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:51] This is like long, long time ago. And I was like, Can you make it with Enamame? And he almost like, if he could have like choked me with peace through the phone, he would have like choked me out with peace. He's like, that is such a waste of edamame. Why would you try to make tofu out of that mom?
+
+[22:59] And I was like, my people have a lot of money. It's not about saving the world through protein. It's just about food. You know what I mean? I was asking trying to ask him about alternate things.
+
+[23:14] He was just like, look, soybeans are for tofu. Edamame is for eating. Boop. That's it. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:21] He was not having it. He so shortleaf, the guy who wrote the book of tofu and the book of Miso, we've talked about it many times on the air. And his wife, whose name I can never pronounce, which is why I never say her name. Yeah. Uh I feel you on that one.
+
+[23:32] Yeah, yeah. And so uh which I feel bad. Like I would give her like the credit she is due if I could pronounce her name or and because I can't pronounce her name, I can't remember it, which is a freaking nightmare. It's horrifying. I should like anyway, whatever.
+
+[23:43] And she didn't pick up the phone. If she had picked up the phone, I would have made the you know the conscious effort to uh remember. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is is that he wanted to save they wanted to save the earth through um uh protein. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:57] Yeah. Didn't work so much though. I think they should have I mean, if people knew what umami bombs were back then, then it would have been a totally different story. Yeah, so the two of them wrote two books, uh the Book of Tofu, the Book of Me Miso, please do not buy there is a pocket version that's reasonable, and then there's a pocket version that's mutilated. Please get when you're getting it, make sure you get the full-on edition.
+
+[24:18] When they hacked up uh one of one or two, I forget I've seen several editions of their books that have been hacked up in such a way that they don't flow well and they're kind of unreadable. If you can get the large format one, they're the they're the easiest on the eyes and the best to read. Rich, agree? Yeah, can't say I own four copies. What's her last name?
+
+[24:37] I don't know. Not shirtleaf. Okay. Uh anyway. So on those pickles, basically, I took I took that technique.
+
+[24:44] Uh you you just make a slurry out of uh co koji you've made or koji you've bought. You add cooked rice and a little bit of sake and salt, and then you have this pickling slurry and you let it ferment out for about a week. And then you just add um you add typically root vegetables to it because they can hand kind of handle the the uh the environment and hold up. Uh and then I've just found it to be delicious. The other crunchy, they are crunchy.
+
+[25:11] Is that bad or good? Well, in my normal realm, that's not so good. But I'm remembering now I'm thinking of them now more as sucamono as pickles, and so I can uh it's good. It's good. Nastasha does not like them at all.
+
+[25:26] What's the face? What is the face? That's the most polite I've ever seen Nastasia be in her life. A look of horror with it fine. No, but listen.
+
+[25:39] Must document. Nastasia, Nastasia, like you need to rearrange your your mind. Like you and I have an idea of what something's supposed to be. So just rearrange your mind. This is now a soup, we're now in Tsukimono land.
+
+[25:51] We're not in like Western Beetville. One thing I will say is that um I can taste starch more in this beat than I normally can taste in beets. I wonder why that's the case. So like when you eat an apple that has some residual starch, it's got a note, and usually in an undercooked beet or non cooked. I guess it's non cooked, it's not undercooked, or it is a cooked.
+
+[26:12] It's park. It's raw. It's raw oh yeah. So yeah, okay, so that's why. I'm not used to having a raw beat of this texture, so I get a little bit of that starch note, which the lovers of pea shoots will love.
+
+[26:21] Yeah, I'm a big fan of those beets. Yeah. Are you a lover of pea shoots? I do like pea shoots. Why?
+
+[26:27] Just messing with you. You're allowed to like whatever you want. Alright, also let's get some questions before we have to go to break. And then we'll talk more about uh Koji, but if I don't get to some of these questions, Nastasia is gonna be see when I get off the air, Nastasia's just gonna be like, you didn't answer any of those damn questions. Because it's like three weeks behind, right?
+
+[26:46] Uh yes. Details. But I'm gonna handle one from the uh this week uh because it needs a bunch of people talking about it. All right, wait a minute. Let's do that.
+
+[26:56] Let's do that and then take the break, huh? Alright, uh, Rich, you got a couple more things for us to taste we'll talk about after the break? Yeah, we'll we'll do it after break. Okay. Andrew from Los Angeles writes in regarding toast.
+
+[27:06] Greetings, Dave, the hammer and family. I consider myself a knowledgeable amateur cook and I'm comfortable with a variety of techniques and cuisines. I say this first because my question is super basic. How do you make toast? Lately I feel like my toast game is lacking.
+
+[27:20] The bread doesn't get crunchy enough unless it's buoyed. I've had some pretty delicious toast out at various breakfast spots, but it can't seem to replicate that at home. I know enough to avoid sogifying the toast by say putting on a plate directly after toasting. Oh my god, even thinking about that freaking toast steaming itself on a plate is making me angry. Uh it's just making me virulently angry right now.
+
+[27:41] But I could use some more pro wisdom. Should I look into a new toaster? I don't know. You didn't tell me what kind of toaster you're using. How do I know?
+
+[27:48] I don't know what you have. Uh although the toaster does make a huge difference. Um if I'm not getting the uh should I look into a new toaster if I'm not getting the desired outcome? Toaster oven versus standard slotted toaster, uh, you know, etc. Is this entirely about the brand of bread?
+
+[28:02] Uh do I have to be a crazy person and leave sliced bread on the counter every night to get it appropriately stale? Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Love the show, Andrew from Los Angeles. First of all, you should go and read. Oh my god, what's uh so the wife name is Matt.
+
+[28:18] What's his name? John Thorne had a book, several books. They write in Maine. I think it's um I forget, they have a bunch of books. Look them up.
+
+[28:26] One of them has an essay on toast that's quite good. Um, but I can't remember the name of uh which one it is. They have I can't even remember the name of any of their books now, but it's all like pig, fire, stuff like this. But like what like one has an essay on toast, which is definitely worth the read. Toast is an underappreciated uh uh product, and the the there is no one toast.
+
+[28:46] It's not like Highlander where there can be only one. There are multiple toasts. And so the question is, what are you looking for in a slice of toast? And I would say that the average American in a s in a slice of toast wants a crispy but not burnt exterior, but a sil still soft interior. Am I right?
+
+[29:02] Yeah, I'll agree with that. Yeah. Whereas there are uh a host of people when they say toast, they want something basically fully meldified, like a uh you know, crunchy throughout, a desiccated rusk, right? Now, uh so and a lot of this has to do with the with the toasting rate. And I'll say it again, and I've said it a billion times on the air.
+
+[29:23] This is all about the miracle of moisture management, right? Toast is all a moisture management technique. So uh there is a huge difference in quality between different toasters, that's for sure, right? Uh on evenness, on um on everything on the on the programming. You can in general get decent toast out of any uh any toaster you desire, but in general, if your toast isn't coming out of the way you want it, I would do two toastings on a particular I would do two light toastings with a rest in between rather than a single long toasting to the desired color.
+
+[30:00] That's gonna give you a little more dehydration on the outside of the bread, and after the very first toasting, when it comes out, you'll flash some of the moisture off and ruin the kind of based initial, very blonde crust that you produced. And then when you put it in for the second time, you're gonna develop a little more of a durable crust on the outside, but you won't have dehydrated it all the all the way through. If you want a very dehydrated internal with a very, very long-lasting crust for let's say you're gonna put something on top like Bosquetta or something like this, then I would say multiple low uh passes or just throw it in the freaking oven at uh a low baking temperature with air circulation. The other thing is as soon as the toaster turns off, open the toaster oven. Uh if you're using an oven, open the toaster oven, let the steam come out.
+
+[30:43] When you look at your toaster oven, JW, do you not see that freaking condensation on the inside of the toaster oven? Yeah, yeah, I see it. And does that not cause your heart pain? It does, it does it causes a little little tinkle. Right, right.
+
+[30:54] So, first thing I would say is let's say you're using a toaster oven. I would do a you know a relatively short toast, then I would open it and let it flash off, wait a couple minutes, toast it one more time, light, and you should get a good quality uh toast. That's the answer. On a pop-up toaster, I don't really think I mean maybe moving it slightly because uh if your toaster is particularly crappy, you'll notice that uh it puts banding on your toast and not just banding on where the grates are, but you can literally see the heating elements running along your toast. This is an indication that your toast is probably that it's not uh an even enough um kind of heat.
+
+[31:30] Perhaps the reflector on the bottom of your thing is is uh very dirty, you're not getting a lot of uh radiate heat back up, or there's a number of reasons, but you know, if you need to move it to even it out, you can do that too, or just get a higher quality toaster oven. Anyone else agree or disagree on my toast technology? Anything further to add on toasting? It sounds like a pain in the ass to get some good toast. It's super easy.
+
+[31:51] Look, it's the i i i this is like everything else. This is like my new book. If you don't if you're if you're not into this, then just don't buy the new book. It's thinking a lot ahead of time, but making your life easy. Like, in other words, like you're putting your toast in and you're hitting it and you're hitting go and you're walking away and coming back and it's done.
+
+[32:06] All I'm advocating is that in between that you like turn it off, let it flash off for like you know, 30, 40 seconds, let it cool down a little bit, then run it through another toast cycle. That's all. So are you saying toaster oven's the way to go over a pop-up toaster? No, I think you could do the same thing in a pop-up toaster. A pop-up toaster shoots the toast up and allows pretty good airflow.
+
+[32:24] So like I would just set your pop-up toaster to a like a lower level than you normally would, and then just let it pop, hit it again, let it pop, and go. And then it's just dialing in how long those short segments are. But you're gonna get a better toast. Look, if you want crappy toast, that's up to you. Well, I'm kind of in a mix right here because I I have my grandmother's toaster, and so it's sentimental, but it's fundamentally produces crappy toast.
+
+[32:47] So what style of toaster? Toastmaster. Toast but it's pop-up? Pop-up from like 1976 or something like that? Uh yeah, you might like do so.
+
+[32:57] If it's pop-up, is it like what's bad about the toast? It does like so the knob doesn't really work, so you don't really know how you're gonna if you're gonna overdarken it or if you're gonna lightly darken it. You need to keep that knob in one freaking position. You need to dial that sucker in and then like let her go. Well, Paso's more of a tortilla game, so we never really kind of jumped into it.
+
+[33:14] You put tortillas in a pop-up toaster? No, no, but I I don't really that's why I guess I don't know the art of toast per se, and haven't really paid attention to the quality of the toast. And so I don't know. Yeah, also I like crappy American bread for toast. I do.
+
+[33:29] For a sandwich. Uh for a sandwich. Here's something else I would say. I I'm gonna make a small pitch here, uh large pitch, actually. If you're getting a new toaster, one of the advantages of a toaster oven is the bagel setting.
+
+[33:41] And the bagel setting is the best thing to happen to toasters since toasting. Because there are many things on earth, a bagel is not one of them because I don't toast bagels, but uh, there are many things on earth where you want toasting on the one side only. You guys agree with me on this? Yeah. A hamburger bun, I don't want the part touching my hands to be toasted.
+
+[33:59] I want the part touching the mayonnaise and or the burger. I want that to be toasted. Prevent sogginess too. Yeah, right. That's functional and delicious, but I want I want the top of my sesame seed bun to be a bun and not a piece of toast.
+
+[34:14] Uh and there are. Unless you get a patty melt. Fluffy. Uh I would always get a patty melt. If someone says, would you have what like would you have a patty melt?
+
+[34:21] I pretty much they can just stop. They can just stop. Would you like a patty melt? And as soon as they say the word or I'm like, I'm done, because that's what I want. Patty melt is like God's like what God would do to a burger.
+
+[34:31] That's why it's not even a hamburger in my mind. It's like it's another category of awesome. Like I love the patty melt. But uh anyway, patty melt, obviously, you don't. That's an interesting question.
+
+[34:41] Would you pre-toast, would you pre-toast the inside of a patty melt? I don't, do I? No. You want to take a break and think about it? Is that a hint?
+
+[34:50] Yeah, okay, we'll come right back with more questions on cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with.
+
+[35:39] Learn more at Bob's Red Mill dot com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more.
+
+[36:00] Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[36:29] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit ChefSteps.com/slash J O U L E. And we're back. Uh, we didn't answer Javier about his equipment question, did we, Nastasia? No, we didn't.
+
+[36:52] Okay. I hope you're doing well. I wanted to send a question for the uh show, but don't have the address. Well, apparently you found it. Okay.
+
+[36:58] Uh I'm looking at expanding the equipment for my kitchen. I live in a small apartment, so I don't have too much space to put many appliances, and I wanted to get a suggestion on what I should get next. I currently own uh a Nova immersion circulator. Unfortunately, it's not a jewel, I guess because you know, we had Jewel is the sponsor of our program. We had Chris on what, two weeks ago?
+
+[37:16] Uh a Vitamix, uh Kitchen Aid, a copycat EC Whipper, and a pre-order the spins all. Thank you. You have everything you need then, baby. Um I was looking at a vacuum chamber machine, the RE Vacmaster 215. Rich, you ever use that one?
+
+[37:30] Nope. No, I know JW hasn't because he's got the fancy uh fancy menu pack. Uh but I don't know if I should go for it. Another machine like it or a different type of equipment. Any suggestions?
+
+[37:41] I would only use it at home, so I'm debating whether I should shell out $500 plus for a machine like that. Thanks for your help. Best Javier. So uh Javier. So here's my issue.
+
+[37:50] I've never used that. All these years later, I've what? Javier. Javier. Javier, whatever, man.
+
+[37:57] So I was going French. Anyway. Weak. I'm known weak sauce. I'm the sauce that is weak.
+
+[38:06] Um so uh my point is this. Uh I've never used that machine. Uh I should probably, since I'm doing this book that has Souvine on it, just bite the bullet and buy or steal one or find someone that has one and use it. Uh now I'm gonna actually go French. Hervé, Chef Hervé Malavere from uh the uh French culinary, well, the ICC, formerly the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[38:27] He seems to like it, but I've never used it, and uh and I will never I can't ever, won't ever recommend a piece of equipment that I haven't used. Um just because that would be stupid on my part. Um but uh you know, like what you I don't know the ultimate vacuum it can produce. Really, for a vacuum vacuum machine at home is super handy. Most things you can do without a vacuum machine, but I gotta be honest, when like I'm doing chicken marination or any kind of marination, I throw crap in the vacuum machine because it just makes the marination happen faster.
+
+[38:57] It just does like vacpacking the stuff down. Uh and for infusions and when you're packing stuff to freeze, you want to get all the oxygen out. So vacpacking for freezing is like a really smart idea to maintain quality on long frozen items. Um you can get away with a zippy, but but vacuuming is generally a lot better. I um I only like chamber machines.
+
+[39:19] I think that this the one you're talking about, I can't remember whether it has a chamber or whether it's uh like a chamber like one or something like this, but I really only recommend chamber machines. Uh I will say this Mini Pack, which is the company who uh makes the unit that I use, uh, and that JW, you're a mini pack, not not multivac, right? Yeah, you know why to get mini pack is because they care about cooks, whereas multivac could give a rat's behind about you. They don't care about you or your problems. Not at all.
+
+[39:44] Uh I want a mini pack. You want a mini pack? We don't want a mini pack, but they're coming out with a they're coming out with a new uh home unit called uh like the cube in the next six months or so. And so I'm waiting when when that comes out. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll be out in time for my book uh to be in it, but I'm I'm having high hopes for it.
+
+[40:03] It's relatively small unit, it will allow uh for chamber and for external uh vacuum, but I can't comment on it because they're not using see all the good vacuum machines use what's called a bush pump or equivalent, it's an oil-based vacuum pump, and they just kick so much behind. That's why like uh food savers are you know relatively useless for that sort of stuff because they have those little piston pumps that are like and then like they get they get jammed with uh you know what no one's ever done that I know of? Here's a trick for you uh food saver people. Uh has anyone ever mod modified a food saver for a wolf jar? You know what a wolf jar is?
+
+[40:40] No. So a wolf jar is vacuum in and vacuum out all from the top, and it collects liquids in the bottom. So like I could imagine modifying a food saver with one of their smaller because it takes a long time to evacuate those things with that crappy little pump. But you could probably handle liquids uh oh no, but you can't because you gotta put the freaking seal bar. Someday I'll just make my own like like uh DIY, I'll just make like a $100 DIY like that.
+
+[41:07] Not not for production because people already are in that business, but I mean, just like uh, you know, you have access to like a fun fundamental wood shop or a 3D printer, here's a vac machine. Yeah, because you can't wolf jar that sucker, son of a gun. I don't know. Anyway, it would be good if you could. Then you wouldn't need a chamber as much.
+
+[41:24] But I would I would wait for a chamber machine. What do you think? I agree. Yeah? JW, how do you like your new chamber machine?
+
+[41:30] I love it. I love it. Okay. I'm still practicing on it a lot, though. Froggy, why don't you take a glass of water?
+
+[41:35] No, no, no, no, no. Working, working. All right, hold on. Yeah, okay. So listen, hey, I was doing that on the plane, annoying the hell out of people on the plane, but what about that guy that got drugged off the United Airlines?
+
+[41:45] Like wow and the airline, it's like, what do you mean? What's the problem? I was like, it's like uh it's like once you're seated, that's it. My butt's in the seat. Yeah, you know what I mean?
+
+[41:57] You got a lot of stones to try and take me out of my seat. You know what I mean? Would you rather have them step over you? I would I would rather them put that crew on another immediate flight or just break. Look, you messed up.
+
+[42:09] Put them in the cockpit in the jump seat. Like have them stay in the freaking restroom. You just keep upping what you're offering until somebody but somebody's going to at some point. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:18] They're like, oh, we can't up it that much. Yes, you can. 30 free flights. Get off my freaking plane. Exactly.
+
+[42:22] You know what I mean? It's like a lot cheaper than what they have to do now. Yeah, right? Yeah. They lost two.
+
+[42:28] Like, as of when I left uh my apartment this morning, they had already lost like two two and a half to three percent of their entire company value on the stock market based on that decision. So it's like maybe they should have offered a couple more free flights. I'm just saying. Yeah, you know what I mean? But the thing is also like drag somebody off a plane.
+
+[42:47] Uh yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's not a food-related, not a food related question, so we should probably we have enough food related questions. So uh Shiro Wait, maybe the guy like pea shoots, though, in which case get him off there. Maybe what? Like maybe you like pea shoots, yeah.
+
+[43:00] Or just like a baseball beat. Oh, oh, I get you. T shoots. Yeah, baseball beats, pea shoots, a uh chicken, a turkey wrap, and uh how about some of the things? Well, you gotta hate on the turkey.
+
+[43:10] It's not the turkey that I hate, it's the rap that I hate. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of raps, so uh we talked about Juarez and the burrito a little bit. Did we talk about bars? Did we talk about bars on here, Anastasia?
+
+[43:20] The Juarez bars? No, no, no. So all the old stru well, JW took us to all the old school bars. They all have uh the bar is an integrated urinal, so you just pee where you stand. I have to call this into question, though.
+
+[43:32] I'm calling this into question. So, so yeah, we we've always thought it was a urinal, but isn't that what the lady said? Someone else called it out and saying that it was something like a trash bin. Like someone like instead of the city. No, so that's what I'm saying.
+
+[43:43] I've been I've been to lots of bars in Spain where they have the trough under the bar, and that's where you throw your napkins, the ones that really do a horrible job at wiping up anything. Then also you throw like your shells and like uh Do you know Mexico's its own country? Well, I'm saying that it's it's quite possibly something that was brought over from Spain, and I would explain that'd be a much more rational reason. It's a it's crazy to think of dude. Oh, oh, it's so irrational.
+
+[44:07] What about the old thing that you used to hear about people at uh Oktoberfest peeing down their canes? Right. Yeah. Old thing meaning like this happens like now. And I'm pretty sure potentially Kentucky Club might have been an all-male bar when it first opened up.
+
+[44:20] So I could I could see that. That's what the Lady at Club Quinze said. Yeah. Although I like the idea. Why would you throw a napkin in a trough?
+
+[44:27] Just so you don't have to throw it on the floor. You are throwing it on the floor. Someone's still gonna have to go down into the trough and lift that napkin out. People are peeing. Someone, some sort of bar expert, please get on this.
+
+[44:41] Anyway, uh for whatever, they're not they're no longer used, and I'm sure there's no faster way to get your your behind handed to you than to either throw your throw your garbage or your urine in there. First of all, urine is a lot more friendly than your garbage. Dave, I gotta just drop a little hate right now. I I I talked to Doc Scans since that episode when you talked about him filming Nick Wong and Nick Wong just saying. Nick Wong was here during that, so he's I I've seen the video evidence, and your account of the video is uh erroneous.
+
+[45:10] Straight up erroneous. Wow. Well, okay, so so why don't we erroneous? Well, no, I mean in fact, Nick, yeah, no, Nick Nick says he's knowing he's excited to see Doc Scans, and then um, you know, he's like, I wasn't saying that he was hating on Doc Scans. It's just Nick Nick is a very head-down cook, work, not say anything that he's not authorized to say, kind of an individual.
+
+[45:36] That's the point. It's not that he's hating on Docs Gans. Is that if you're like, will you make some comments on this kitchen? The answer is going to be no. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:45] Like, seriously, have you ever met Nick? Do you hang out with Nick? You're like, try to get him to say something. He's gonna be like, no. Because what if he says something that's not what the chef wants him to freaking say?
+
+[45:56] Duh. Not not at not. Shy writes in. After tasting some, in quotes, grill-flavored snacks, which are obviously not grilled. I wondered how this flavor is created.
+
+[46:08] I did a quick patent search and got some interesting if confusing results. The concept seems to be uh breakdown of oil and amino acids at high temperatures. Yeah, there's like rancidity, they're like in contact with metal ions, there's all sorts of stuff. It seems uh oxygen or lack uh of it also has some effect. I'll appreciate some explanation of this flavor and the process that produces it, and perhaps also some uses for it in a home kitchen, thanks Shy.
+
+[46:29] Well, I don't really know precisely how it's done. It's a super dark art what happens in the flavor houses. Did you ever talk to the our flavor guys about uh about that? Did you talk to them about like fake wakay flavors? Yeah, we talked Julie.
+
+[46:42] I talked to Julie a little bit about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's great. They are like what wakay is.
+
+[46:49] Right. And a lot of it is like overcooked oil, like things that catch on fire, uh reactions of oil in the presence of um ferrous metal ions. Yeah, the car carbon steel. Yeah, so carbon steel. So all that uh plays in.
+
+[47:03] But also a lot of these quote unquote grill flavors also have the meat flavor thrown into it, and all the fake meat flavors are like very complicated, and this goes to Rich what you're into, very complicated protein breakdown products that happen in large reactors. And so, like a lot of this kind of like reactor-based flavor chemistry is all about the exact feedstock, the exact temperature that they're reacting it at to get break it down. So it's all very super complicated, and the reason you can't find information on it is because they don't want you to know. Like it's all super proprietary how all those kind of uh flavors work, other than the the basics that we can all look at, which is people have done GCMS work on grilled food and kind of seen what has come out, right? Yeah.
+
+[47:45] Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay. So let me see. Any any more of uh let's see, we answered that question, that question.
+
+[47:54] All right, let's go on to this. Daiquai. Dan from Dan with a daiquiri question from Chicago. Do you like daiquiries, Rich? Uh traditional daiquiri.
+
+[48:03] Yeah, yeah. As opposed to what? I don't know the strawberry crap. That's not even a daiquiri. Don't even call that a daiquiri.
+
+[48:08] Hemingway daiquiri is another form of daiquiry that I dislike. But like uh those things in New Orleans are not daiquiries. Yeah. I don't know what they are. JW, you daiquiri man?
+
+[48:17] No, I'm not really a daiquiri fan. What? I don't really know much about daiquiries either, to be honest. Maybe had two in my whole life. What?
+
+[48:24] You gotta fix this. Yeah, yeah. We could change it up. I'm open. I'm open to it.
+
+[48:28] You gotta mix one up for them then. I wish that the Greek gods were real so that a thunderbolt can fly out of the sky and strike you down. Strike me down. Take you. Strike me down.
+
+[48:42] Isn't isn't daiquiries, isn't that like the drink that when you're applying for a bartending job they ask you to make? It's one of them. It's uh it's an indicator drink. So uh like the Manhattan's an indicator drink. Can someone make a decent Manhattan daiquiries an indicator drink?
+
+[48:56] Uh yeah, it's one of those things. Um anyway. I'm I can't even go I can't even go on, people. Uh Dan writes, I'm working on improving my daiquiri game, which is currently very weak. Uh Nastasia, the daiquiri is weak?
+
+[49:11] You are weak. Yeah. I love Debbie's doing some selfies. Nastasia. What?
+
+[49:14] I think I can do that too. What? Did you see your shirt? No, what does it say? Always always be creating.
+
+[49:21] So that we have more than one Glengarry Glenn Ross reference in the room right now. Anyway, uh shout out to ideas and food. Yeah. Dan, wait, that's uh that's uh an ideas and food t shirt he came with is he a fan of uh are they a fan of Glengarry Glenn Ross? I would imagine so.
+
+[49:36] Alex Naki or Glengarry Glenn Ross fans. Is anyone not a fan of Glengarry Glenn Ross? Dave, have you seen Glengarry Glen Glenn Ross? Yeah, a long time ago. Do you not occasionally watch Alec Baldwin's monologue on the YouTube?
+
+[49:47] It's baller. What do you you do it like every so often just to pump yourself up? You have to re-up yourself. Like you have to like get it back. JW?
+
+[49:55] No, once again, I'm I'm drawing a blank here. Oh you gotta see I'm gonna I have a yet another thunderbolt strikes his pile of ashes. Okay. I will send it to you. Alec Baldwin, regardless of where you stand on Trump and his Trump imitation, one of the great monologues of all times, all times is the speech that he gives to the salespeople in Glengarry Glen Ross, where uh it's just like it needs to be and first of all, like a super sexy 80s Alec Baldwin.
+
+[50:26] Am I right, Nastasia? Yeah, yeah. Like super hardcore, like, yeah. And it's just like, you know, Baldwin at his best. Gotta go, gotta go see that.
+
+[50:33] Only closers get coffee. Yeah. Put coffee closers down. Yeah, yeah. Um, I just love that movie.
+
+[50:41] Anyway, uh so many good people in it. It's not about movies, about food. Uh okay. Uh I'm working on my Dacquiry game, which is very weak, and I was wondering what particular rum brands and types you recommend for the classic Dacquiry versus the Hemweg Daiquiry versus the Tybasil Daiquiry. I have to say, at Booker and Dax, we switched up what um what rum we used for either of those two.
+
+[51:00] Uh since you're in Chicago, I mean, like if you're in if you're abroad, like I really I like Havana 3 is really nice, uh Havana Club 3, but you can't get that here yet, even though Castro's dead, that he still can't get that here yet. I think a lot of that is because um that trademark is is in um contention between Bacardi and a bunch of other people, but that's a good one. Florida Cagna, uh the the white one uh the is uh one kind of one of the standard ones that we um used. Uh I like that. I uh I like any sort of like vaguely fruity, not solventy smelling, not overpowering.
+
+[51:35] I wouldn't go heavy hogo, although a heavy hogo daiquiri can also be good. Look, Jack Shram, uh you know, formerly a Booker and Dax, uh head bartender now at Nomad, he was uh he loved Super Hogo, which is that ho hard to describe Hogo is that smell in certain rums like Smith and Cross and Ray and Nephew, uh Apple tins and all this. Uh he loved like hogo in a daiquiri, and he even liked like an aged rum daiquiri. I prefer white rum in a day in a regular daiquiri. Uh and what works in a regular daiquiri works in a Thai basil daiquiri.
+
+[52:04] You should just never make a Hemingway daiquiri, so don't worry about what rum to use in a Hemingway daiquiri. And if you should make the mistake of making a Hemingway daiquiri, add a little extra sugar to it. Additionally, I just purchased a BDX cocktail cube and was wondering when I'm creating a cocktail with egg white, do I use the cocktail cube during the dry shake and the shake with ice or just during the shake with ice? Use it both, Dan. Both.
+
+[52:23] All right. Uh we have we have more time, right? No, you don't. Uh we have an alkaline noodle question. We have a well, first of all, we don't want to do the Auckland noodle question.
+
+[52:33] And we have a we have a one more question, Dave. Oh, we have so many though. One more. Choose wisely. All right, Rich, what do you want to do?
+
+[52:40] What do you want to what do you want to talk about? I like alkaline noodles. You have a lot of alkaline noodles. We also have like a a lot of a lot of questions. And I think that's a good idea.
+
+[52:44] I have an idea. Why don't we spend this time talking about the question we want to answer? Time second. You know what? You're not a nice person here.
+
+[52:59] You're just not a nice person. All right. Jesse writes in uh what can um making ramen noodles at home. He also has a question, or she or he uh also has a question on uh on pureeing uh salsas, but we'll get to that next week. Making ramen noodles at home.
+
+[53:13] Alkaline noodles require an alkaline uh element. Baking soda can be baked uh to change from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate, which is stronger base. On a molecular level, what is physically different about alkaline noodles from other noodles? I'm not a very scientific person, but I remember reading something about the bonds in the noodles and hydrogen molecules. I was hoping Dave could break it down, Jesse.
+
+[53:31] So what you're talking about is uh hydrogen bonding, but on further research, and you guys are probably uh you know all know this, but in my mind, it's always been you know, gluten network, acidity makes it weaker, which is why sourdough bread is kind of slack sometimes and has problems, and alkaline uh conditions make the gluten network stronger. But as I was researching uh today, just to make sure it turns out it's a lot freaking more complicated than that. And I don't know that anyone actually um has it a hundred I mean I don't know that it's a hundred percent figured out. Uh I think it's mostly figured out, but it's not as simple as alkaline uh situations make the gluten network stronger because there's also starch interactions uh with um the alkaline um with the alkaline um conditions. So I don't know.
+
+[54:18] Do you know anything about it, Rich? I don't know anything about it, but I know Alex um helped me in terms of accelerating the cook time for uh Koji rice by doing an alkaline bath. Yeah, I mean it's uh what do you mean? Basically you did uh alkaline bath before we did a steaming and it basically powered the cook time to like 15 minutes versus uh almost an hour. Right.
+
+[54:39] So well what happens is in alkaline conditions uh starch like vegetables and things like that, starches and pectin break down a lot more quickly than they would in a um than they would in an acidic environment, which is why one of the reasons why so you know how like they say that when you add acid to a veg, it um when you add acid to a veg, it like has the problem of uh the acidity uh causes the chlorophyll to go bad faster. Right. But it also takes longer to cook. When I used to do vinegar baked uh vinegar, I used to cook potatoes and vinegar for vinegar fries, and it would take for freaking ever. Yeah.
+
+[55:16] You ever try that? Takes forever. Um so that's why when you add a pinch of uh baking soda to something to keep it green, right? I think there's two things going on. One, I think that the alkaline conditions help uh preserve the chlorophyll, making it greener, but it also accelerates quite drastically the cooking time, right?
+
+[55:35] Which is why things go mushy. Which is why the interesting thing to do is instead of adding baking soda to your broccoli water, add calcium hydroxide because the calcium will strengthen the pectin at the same time that the b basic nature of it will uh help the greening. So you get kind of the best of uh of both worlds. So uh on the way out, I know we have to leave. We also tasted from uh Rich some straight Koji, right?
+
+[55:59] Yeah, jasmine rice koji. Jasmine rice koji. What do you guys what do you think, guys? I liked it. Peanut but peanut butter miso cookies.
+
+[56:06] What do you think? Peanut bitter miso cookie? Delicious. Alright. And uh we tasted some uh we you said you used uh Tozy's uh uh which was basically I a uh hacked the Toesy recipe on uh her butterscotch, which is basically brown sugar, miso, um, and a little bit of water and butter, and you just pretty much mix it or blitz it, dissolve it out, and then you have uh pretty much a butterscotch without any sort of uh sugar cooking.
+
+[56:32] Nice. Yeah, nice. All right, so cool. So go on to uh Rich's Instagram, our cook quest. Uh check out all the many things that he makes uh with Koji.
+
+[56:41] Uh I'm actually pretty surprised at the different range of flavors you get out of all the stuff that you've brought today. What do you guys think? Yeah, I was very surprised. Yeah, and uh thanks Oh, and come party with us at the MoFed after party on Thursday. As soon as you say after party, do we have uh reignition?
+
+[56:54] No, we have got the guy from Tribe Called Quest is hosting. 85 bucks. And you get a bunch of food, open bar. Dave will be uh really just say the guy from instead of just naming who it is. Hello everybody.
+
+[57:06] This is Jarobi from a tribe called Quest. Yeah. That's right. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[57:11] It's gonna be a good time. So that's at the MoFed website. All right, and uh just as a shout-out, I I'm also on the auction. If anybody in New York City wants to have a miso um learn how to make miso, um I'm on the auction site. And and JW will be there as well, so you can go over and talk to J Dub about his lack of love for his own El Paso brand.
+
+[57:29] He's never even visited their freaking factory. This does he'll be in the corner. Nastasio will be in the corner hating on you. Please come so that Nastasia can hate on you in person. If you've never been hated on by Nastasia Lopez in person, it is something to be experienced.
+
+[57:43] Am I right, guys? Classic. Yeah, yeah. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[57:58] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[58:24] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J O U L Economic Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one. Adrian's Pizzeria here in Bushwright Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:32] How you doing, Stas? Good. Got Dave in the booth, as per. What up? How are you doing?
+
+[0:36] Got two special guests in uh in the booth uh today in the shipping container. We have uh, of course, uh, you know, uh what are you? You're a regular, you're like a regular guest, right, Ariel? Yeah, the regular regular guest. We got Ariel from uh formerly of uh Nordic Cooking Universe, formerly of UC Davis, uh, and currently uh doing the food thing at uh the Mastit Massachusetts Institute of Uh Technology.
+
+[1:04] It's true. True. Yeah? Yeah. And uh what's your title over there?
+
+[1:07] Director's Fellow. Director's Fellow. You're the director's fellow. So like is it what like one step from being the fellow of the director to being the director director of what? It's like being a familiar or something.
+
+[1:19] Yeah, yeah, the the like I take on a cat shape and then like advise. Yeah, so for those of you not hip to uh old school uh sorcery, uh the familiar is the is the person that the devil comes and uh and no i it's the in per no, it's the actual personification of the devil, right? The f the the witch is the witch and the familiar is the personification of the devil on earth. Right. I mean I was thinking about it more in an advanced Dungeons and Dragons format, or like Sabrina the Teenage Witch, because there was that talking cat in it.
+
+[1:46] That's just what I'm that's I mean, that's me. Look at me, you think like, oh, why is cracking a town? But technically the familiar is the stand in for the devil on earth, right? And and and wonderfully today, and it's unfortunate that you can't see it, but Ariel's with us in Talking Cat form today. So please, if you can just imagine that while listening.
+
+[1:59] Nice. And uh the person that you're hearing uh chime uh in there is the the one the only Peter Meehan. Uh and I don't know, you tell me what your title, what you want your title to be. I'm just gonna say uh food media impresario. I I think that gives me too much credit.
+
+[2:21] I'm the editor of the currently doomed food publication, Lucky Peach, um, which we're wrapping up work on right now, and I write cookbooks. And yeah. I'm just I'm happy to be here with you guys to eat pizza. Currently Doomed is a fantastic band name. It's uh yeah, and and and then also an app description of the last six years of my work.
+
+[2:42] Um, but the thing about the the interesting thing about like currently doomed is first of all, like we're all doomed. We're we are all doomed, but like currently doomed, it's like it's like it's like being on I don't want to m make light of, but it's like it's like we know we're we're getting the needle this weekend. It's like all of this days of execution are over. So I'm just at the point where I'm like, can I get six orders of McDonald's French fries and some ice cream on top of that? Thanks.
+
+[3:11] Wow, so there's there's no governor to call there's no the the the the no the governor's just gonna come and watch when it happens at this point. Yeah, you're in your like Fay phase. Yeah. Yeah, so the old Scots marked for death sense of the word. All right, so uh speaking of Scots, I know I talked a little bit about it last week, because I was in Scotland like a week and a half ago or something like this.
+
+[3:30] Humble brag. And uh it's a great what? And uh uh I'm learning bagpipes again. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's let's rewind that again.
+
+[3:40] Was there a time at which previously you had experience experimented with bagpipery? So, like, yeah, 15 years ago, there was a uh or 16, there was a society in like the upper east side that was like don't try to make this sound fancy. No, no, no. They taught like cops and firefighters how to play bagpipes. So there was this like lesson that you could get.
+
+[4:01] Okay. So then I I went to said lesson. I bought see bagpipe is one of the very few instruments where no one allows you to play the actual instrument for a long time after you started learning it because it's just so horrific. The idea of you inflating that bag and just going to it is so horrifying to everybody that they mean that statement alone is so horrifying. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:22] So you have to learn on this thing called a practice chanter, which believe this or not, Nastasia, sounds worse than a recorder. If there is possible to have an instrument that is more grating on the nerves than the recorder, it is the practice chanter. Wow. Which for all intents and purposes is a slightly quieter real chanter's the thing that makes the notes on a bagpipe, other than the drums. Okay.
+
+[4:42] So uh I, you know, practiced for like a couple of months on my practice channel, and as soon as I get ready to get a real set of pipes, I laid into the bag once, and Jen, my wife was like, absolutely not. This is over. It all got thrown away. Like I was I thankfully it was it like a save our marriage? It was it was a worthless set of pipes anyway, worthless set of pipes.
+
+[5:01] Anyway, but like uh that was a long time ago, and I only had the apartment in New York. Then about uh six months ago, I was like, I'm gonna learn again, and I hit the practice channel once, and my son Booker was like, I'm gonna break that in half. You're an idiot. Like, this is you're a bad human being. Why are you doing this?
+
+[5:17] Yeah. And Jim, my wife was like, Yeah, he's right. You know what I mean? This is horrible. So, but then I went to Scotland, I was like, crap on it.
+
+[5:23] So now I have purchased to practice with electronic bagpipes. Wow. Yeah. That's like a that sounds like a new genre. Yeah.
+
+[5:31] Yeah. Well, so have you brought them with you today? I have. Oh. God, this that was such a good natural build up and reveal.
+
+[5:39] Wow. That's it. These are the uh these that's the size of an electronic. It's like it's electronic, man. Wow.
+
+[5:46] It looks like a recorder. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Or a small fight.
+
+[5:52] You have to plug your ears into it and you don't blow in it or anything. It's dead silent. Oh, okay. So anyway, so the reason I'm mentioning this is that I'd need someone in New York City to uh I need to take some lessons because I need to get good enough at bagpipes to play a song when we open the bar, which is extremely aggressive since that like I hope to open, you know, sometime around August. So it's extremely aggressive to want to be able to play an actor side.
+
+[6:16] You just have to be confident enough to do it in public. A song. Right. Uh so I know a guy who knows a guy. Yeah?
+
+[6:23] Yeah. All right. And speaking of this, last week, uh, we were talking here, and uh I was describing how I had dinner with you, and you know, uh the guy next to me happens to be the lead singer of Pavement, and I freaked out, and no one here had listened to Pavement. Just to show you kind of what kind of people you're dealing with. Like these are the people you're dealing with.
+
+[6:42] Wait, where was this? Here. I you didn't know was it you, Dave who didn't? Oh no, someone else maybe was in the booth. It wasn't fucking me.
+
+[6:49] Didn't we talk about this in Scotland? I feel like this is a reading. Maybe it was Scotland's conversation I read. Oh, maybe it wasn't on the radio show, maybe it was in Scotland. And I was just so horrified at the quality of people that I was like.
+
+[6:57] I think I think I was one of those people. I wanna I wonder if pavement never made it big in Scotland, but if it hasn't, your Scottish listeners listeners should really tune in. Yeah, what do they just sit sit around listening to not garbage style, but just garbage the band, which is Scottish? Which is a good I like garbage and garbage and the proclaimers, like that's it. Oh my God.
+
+[7:14] So anyway, you had a music story as you were coming in here. You're saying you had to listen to stuff because your staff before you send them on their merry way. Well, they're they're all listening right now and will probably bombard us with phone calls. So no, I just I was surprised when there was not a a a wide uh awareness of the works of public enemy. So that's been no, but I b but it's not really office music.
+
+[7:38] Like it's office music when you're about to close. It certainly is. Right, like fear of a black planet is is really, you know, it's kind of a heavy soundtrack to like, let's make food stories. Yeah, well, you know what's even like harder, like the stuff that no one listened to is like uh um uh 1991, the uh enemy strikes black. Yeah.
+
+[7:57] That's like, you know, by the time I get to Arizona where they literally threaten the life of the Arizona governor. I mean, I think that that's how old are you? Forty-six. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna be 40 this fall, and I feel like for for dudes of our age, that was like the thing, like listening to NWA like growing up, but now I'm not sure. I still remember the you're not seeing my thing.
+
+[8:18] Yeah, you're not seeing my face, but I still remember the first time I heard straight out of Compton. This was it. You know, like I I'm doing the I'm doing the the Westchester White Boy, like the hands to the lips. But then it's allowed. But then you can put on like are they actually murderers?
+
+[8:34] Are they murdering people? Like that's you know, that's a Westchester white boy right there. Yeah. They're bad people. They're rapists and murderers.
+
+[8:43] I d I did not have that. They deal drugs. I didn't have reactions. That's what's well, you had a bad reaction to the wall. The wall.
+
+[8:53] Well, the wall, I was really young. No, what was that song? It came out when I was like eight. Yeah, or or nine. I had a I had a bad reaction to the wall when I said that.
+
+[9:00] I was like, what do you mean we don't need any education? Yeah. Well, I saw that movie and I oh, oh, really? Like you were like, I was like, this is a bad message. Wow.
+
+[9:08] You were like, kind of terrible music, too. Oh, now step back. Yeah. I just I had a better controversial opinion. If you don't eat your meat, Dave.
+
+[9:19] You can't have your pudding. How can you have your pudding if we don't get your meat? I did that to I do that to Dax all the time. He doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about because my wife hates the wall, and so I can't really listen to it. I had a waiter recently say that to my daughter at the table.
+
+[9:34] Um the whole thing? No, just uh, well, if you don't eat your meat, you gotta have your pudding. And I was like, you're an old creep, but I identify with you. Uh jeez. All right, so call in all of your either MIT technical questions, your uh how to uh shut down a magazine with style questions, your food media questions, your Nastasi Lopez questions, or any questions you have uh, you know, dedicated either to uh me, Dave, Arnold, or Dave in the booth, uh to 718497-2128.
+
+[10:04] That's 718497 uh 2128. We have a caller. There you go. Caller, you're on the air. Hello, Dave.
+
+[10:14] Hi. Hi. Hey, I'm trying to make a foam that's similar to the head of a Guinness that can sit on a carbonated beverage and not take on too much carbonation and bubble over. And I've added gelatins, damn, even marshmallow fluff to my base, but it's all overflows when added to the beverage. Marshmallow fluff.
+
+[10:33] I'm thinking of trying versus a wet methyl cellulose, F50 or even powdered egg white, but I wanted your advice. F fifty is great for that. That's what Sam Mason used to use. So F50, I mean, uh, he literally used to make a Guinness foam with uh F50. Sam Mason, for those of you that I don't know, were born yesterday, is like one of the great uh pastry chefs of all time, then went on to be an excellent savory chef at uh Taylor and now is like an ice cream magnate in uh Brooklyn.
+
+[11:00] Uh anyway, so he used to use uh F50, and whenever I was doing um uh things, I would I always gravitate towards uh methyl cell uh F50. Uh the one thing is remember you have to whip F50 for a long time. There has to be something in it that wants to foam, like uh some sort of like protein or whipping agent in along with the F50 to really help it along. And also remember you're gonna do that in a kitchen aid and you're gonna spoon it on top. You're not gonna try to put it out of an EC whip, and you're not uh you're you just you know, otherwise, yeah, it's gonna be a freaking nightmare.
+
+[11:33] If you try to inject the whole thing and have the foam rise to the top, your life is over. So that's a whisk don't cheer type of situation? Well, so typically for F 50, what you'll do is is uh is uh what I'll do is is I'll vortex it in in a blender, then put it into my kitchen aid and like do it. It the one thing it won't work well in typically is milk systems. Um people like VersaWhip.
+
+[11:55] I never liked Versawhip because VersaWhip sometimes even when VersaWhip's gonna work, uh it like takes its sweet time about it. So you'll be sitting there with the kitchen aid with the beater for like five minutes, and you're like, this crap's not gonna work. And then all of a sudden, poof, like the VersaWhip just like pops up. Uh speaking of Kitchen Aids, I just fixed a kitchen aid this morning. This morning, I fixed a Kitchen aid.
+
+[12:16] Have you ever reassembled an entire Kitchen aid and then looked down and you left one washer out of the exact middle of the gearbox? Sounds like you. In fact, is me. If you had done that, you would be living my this morning. Yeah.
+
+[12:32] Cheer, cheers to that. Does that make sense? Excellent. Thank you very much. No problem.
+
+[12:39] Yeah. So I mean, I don't know. What do you what you have any thoughts? Any any of you like I've spent too many years of my life sitting around making methyl cell at 50 foam. So I was just like No, but the the kitchen are you a fan of the KitchenAid stand mixer?
+
+[12:52] Yeah, why wouldn't I be a fan of the KitchenAid stand mixer? You have something against it? No, no. I had a friend who had a bunch of the five quartz burn out on her, and then I got what does she do for a living? She was a baker at the time.
+
+[13:03] No, she's doing something else. Um I got a Brevel stand mixer and I gave away my old KitchenAid 4.5 quart stand mixer and some sort of exotic strange buttercream yellow color, and now my wife is like bummed that we don't have it anymore, and I'm worried I'm gonna have to like Indian give that with my friend, just going with the swap for the Brevel. Have you tried the Brevel stand mixer? So here's what happened. Breville sent me a couple of years ago or a year ago, basically every freaking thing that they make, like stuff that I didn't even know like was a thing that you could make, like like a tea maker.
+
+[13:39] I didn't know that you needed a tea maker. But turns out you do, you do, you need a tea maker. Did not send me the stand mixer. I then tried to I was like, I'm gonna go get the stand mixer. And it that's the hard one.
+
+[13:52] They're not pushing the stand mixer very hard, so that's actually the more difficult one to like beg borrow and steal around. And I've had the kitchen aid for eight billion years, and then literally my mother-in-law was like, I have this broken kitchen aid. I was like, I know how to fix a kitchen aid. So like, you know, because like I do. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:10] It's like, and so you have the Kitchen aid, why would you not, you know, uh, why would you not use the Kitchen aid? And the one I have has the metal gears, although I've heard the brevel's very nice. Do you enjoy it? I I enjoy it as much as I use it, but I'm not the baker of the family, so I don't have like the day-to-day like it gets a little bit jumpy with a hard dough on the counter, you know. Like everything gets a little jumpy with a hard dough on the counter.
+
+[14:30] Oh my god. This is a family program. Yes, yeah. Want to take another call? Sure, call her, you're on the air.
+
+[14:38] Yo caller. You're a caller, you're caller. Uh hey. Um Hi Dave. I have uh uh question for you that might uh apply to your upcoming Sous vide book.
+
+[14:52] Oh nice. I'm wondering if you have put much thought and attention into awesome things to do with Sous vide bag juices, uh especially in the context of making pan sauces. Nastasia, I'm kind of guess here that you hate the word bag juices. She's making her she's making her bag juice face. Uh the here's some issues with bag juices.
+
+[15:15] So um typically because bag juices. Uh well, that's you know, honestly, like we all know I'm not allowed to call the book the miracle of moisture management, but that's really what it's about. Uh I have a I have actually a title for the book, but you know, I probably shouldn't give it out, but it's not going to be unfortunately the miracle of moisture management. But one of the things about um the moisture that exits meat when it comes out of the bag is that it has a lot of uh uncoagulated um proteins, uh which, you know, Ariel, you could probably what's good about an uncoagulated protein. Not much, because when you try to make a pan sauce, it goes fosh, and it looks like you have these nasty gray egg whites in it.
+
+[15:56] Uh Ariel, you're familiar with this problem, yes? Or you you didn't understand what I'm saying? Yes. I am familiar. So good news about that nasty business is that it is actually a clarification aid.
+
+[16:05] So if you want it to be slightly clear, what I would do is uh put the pan juices, gently bring them up to a boil without losing too much of it, and then strain it through. First of all, everyone uses coffee filters. If I could go back in time and and shoot everyone who did I would not really shoot, but you know what I mean. Like, you know, like dissuade people from coffee filters are uh are a nightmare. Like hours of my life I've wasted trying to strain things through coffee filters when we ran out of like cheesecloth.
+
+[16:32] Yeah, yeah, horrifying. Yeah. Just use a dish towel. Just use a dish towel. Like dish towels are great.
+
+[16:38] Just don't use one that you've worn through so that there's big holes. But a standard dish towel, so long as it's clean and doesn't have any holes, drains like a mother and filters pretty well. Do you agree, Ariel? Oh, yeah. Like a dish towel is even better than like the stuff that they sell as cheesecloth store.
+
+[16:53] Because I here's why I've never told anyone to go buy cheesecloth, because they're gonna go to the supermarket and they're gonna buy what amounts to medical gauze. And that is that what do you think? Yeah, what are you straining? Pebbles? Like what the hell is that?
+
+[17:05] Like that is a useless it's useless. It's like it doesn't deserve to be called cloth. It's gauze. It's not I mean, that's why they have the word gauze as a separate thing from cloth. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:17] It's like it's horrifying. Like we're not making mummies, we're trying to filter things, so you should definitely never use uh that garbage. So I would strain as long as you don't use like the dish towel that your mother in law bought for you at like an exhibition or something, and it would upset her to see a gigantic green stain on it than it's a good idea. Depends on how you feel about your mother-in-law. Really?
+
+[17:36] Well, okay, yeah. So you can you can't. It's a great way to send a message. It's a way to send a message. Yeah, here's another thing.
+
+[17:41] Like if you're using something that you also uh if you're straining something that's green that hasn't been cooked yet, it's also gonna turn black, which is like it depends on the on whatever greenery you're putting through it. But like you know, like an oil that you've already done. Yeah, nightmare, nightmare. Anyway, but the point is I would use that, and I use that stuff a hundred percent of the time. And then chefs are always like, aren't you worried about that?
+
+[18:02] I'm like, no. Wait, what is there to worry about? They're worried. I don't know. They're all worried about the cloth.
+
+[18:06] They're worried that it's been treated with some sort of something. Just wash it first. Thank you. Like buy buy like 20 dish glass, put it through the clothes washer, and then you have like a stack of like clean, usable filters for your house. So what else do you do with meat juice from the bag juice?
+
+[18:24] So, yeah, bag juice. So here's another thing. Here's another thing you need to know about bag juice in general. So I find myself with a lot of bag juice at this age. Well, okay, so like let's say you're the kind of person who is doing uh low temperature braise work.
+
+[18:39] Let's say you're that kind of a person. I don't know that you are, but saying you are. We can say that. Okay. Well, let's roleplay it.
+
+[18:44] Right, right. I'm the sort of person who does a lot of low temperature braise work. Okay, well, one thing I'm gonna tell you is that most of your guests slash customers will prefer a high temperature braise because it's gonna have more meaty flavors. But low temperature braises have their place, they're interesting texture, they're good for plating out, etc. etc.
+
+[19:00] You can cut them, okay? This would be for like the the like rare short ribs. Yeah, or even like you're the like a medium short, yeah, any of these things or like lamb shanks or any of these things that you're gonna actually put a sauce in the bag with it, like uh or like cocoa vin or one of these kinds of things, right? And we're distinguishing here between bag sauces and bag juices. Bag juices being the undesired leftover juice at the end of the bag process.
+
+[19:22] This is where it all comes back together again, Peter. So what you have is is you have your bag uh you you try to put your sauce in because you put your sauce. But people always make the freaking mistake. Always, always, always make the mistake of not reducing the bag sauce enough because they're not accounting for the dilution of the bag juices. And what happens is when you add, because there's no reduction in a bag, people.
+
+[19:48] There's no reduction in the bag. Where would it go? There's nowhere for it to go. Is it gonna go? Where's the juice gonna go, buddy?
+
+[19:53] There's nowhere for it to go. Nowhere for it to go. So where's the bag juice gonna? It's just gonna stay in the bag. It's just gonna stay in the bag.
+
+[19:58] So now all of a sudden. Now, if you didn't reduce your sauce enough, and when I say reduce, I don't mean oh, a little more reduced, oh a little bit. No, I'm talking like gelatin, ping pong balls, like reduced. It's gonna taste like a freaking, like a freaking pata pho, like a freaking poached piece of meat. And do you want a poached piece of meat?
+
+[20:19] No. Because if you wanted a post-picha meat, what would you have done? You would have poached it, right? I would I would have low temperature poached it. Yeah, because that's who I am.
+
+[20:29] Right, there you go. All right. So my point being that if you don't want a poached meat texture, if you don't want that pata feu texture, let's assume it's beef, then uh over-reduce your stuff because you gotta worry about the juices. Now, then you could take that stuff, you still have to hit it with some uh energy and strain it through uh a dish towel, or you're gonna get those nasty flow floaty bits. But once you get those nasty floaty bits out, it's it's great for pan juice.
+
+[20:55] So I should over-reduce my sauce to account for the bag juice dilution. If you don't, you're a bad person. And then I need to strain it through a dish towel that my mother-in-law. Yes, after you heat the juice. So after it comes out of the bag, you have to heat it to coagulate the non-coagulated globular extracted globular proteins.
+
+[21:17] Obviously. Duh. Jerk. And then strain that through your mother in law's dish towel. Dish towel.
+
+[21:23] And then it's clean. And then what is the end result of that? Then you have something you can work with. Would you put it over buttered noodles? Are you a Burmani fan?
+
+[21:39] What about fluff? I would not use fluff for that. Unless it was a unless you cooled it off and then just whipped it in. Uh but that sounds super gross. Yeah.
+
+[21:48] Sorry. It sounds super, super gross. But uh wait, I had some more things. Also, the stuff that comes out of a bag is always needs brightening. So you need to kind of brighten it up.
+
+[21:57] Uh if you're doing a lot lot of it, you can refreshen it with a little bit of fresh meat, or you can just hit it with a little bit of acid or a little bit of it's gonna need a little bit of something. It never comes out of the bag tasting like bright and and fresh. Another thing I'll say about the uh the juice that comes out, what was I gonna say? It was something, it was important. Oh my god, it was important.
+
+[22:16] It was like the key thing. And now it's just out of my key. It was the key to using the to bag juice. It was the key to using the bag juice. You ever make it?
+
+[22:26] Oh, oh, oh, oh, listen. If you're gonna use it, so like um if you've had something in the bag for a long time and it's raw and you haven't cooked it yet, right? What happens is you develop something called kind of confinement aroma, and you don't you wanna you want to not have that in your in your bag juice, and also if you're bad if you're if you're using like dry aged meat with the bone still in it, the dry age funk from the bone can kind of make the sauce like really funky. So you just gotta make sure that that's what you want. Is this making any sense, caller?
+
+[22:59] What are the worst things you've ever done with bag juice? Like I imagine you've tried and failed with bag juice before. I mean, I've just heated it, it coagulated, and I'm like, oh no, and poured it over the meat and then called it a day. I mean, that's the absolute worst thing you could do. Bag juice blunder.
+
+[23:13] Bag juice blunders, which is that's a chapter right there, bag juice blunders in the mirror miracle moisture. Yeah. Uh anyway, so you're gonna have to correct it, you're gonna need some acid. Um, you know, you can do uh you can use like a small quantity of it and then mount it with butter. You can hit it with a Bermoni if you want.
+
+[23:32] I mean, I'm a big fan of mounting. The problem with mounting with butter is um you gotta be careful and you have to like know that people are gonna sit, right? That's like an Alaman Newt kind of a sitch. If they're not gonna sit, which you know, you know my family is not gonna sit until I get so angry at them that they're like, why do you always ruin dinner? I'm like, it is not me.
+
+[23:54] Why are you never sitting? Like, why are you why is my own family ruining everything I do and care about the world? Right, right. Yeah, what else is new? Yeah, right.
+
+[24:04] Like, why do you enjoy my pain so much? You know what I hate? I hate this is what I hate. It's like uh I'm like, okay, I'll be like, I'll be like, five minutes, I'm gonna serve dinner. Five minutes.
+
+[24:14] I'm gonna serve dinner in five minutes. Then they wait until that, and then when it comes out, then they're like, Oh, I I need to light some candles. Oh, now now I need to go get the napkins. Oh, now's the time I need to pee. No!
+
+[24:24] I gave you the five-minute warning. And then they bring up the bagpiping as an example of why you're a bad person. Exactly. Are you like I feel like you've been at every dinner that I've ever had, Peter, because it's gonna end with bag juice in your bagpipe. Bag oh no, you don't want to no now, Ariel, you'll be pleased to know that newer bagpipes have a synthetic bags.
+
+[24:44] So that you don't need to like, it's not like some stinking, rotting leather nightmare. But isn't that like part of the whole experience? Not for me. What was the old bag made for? Like just a leather bag.
+
+[24:56] Like originally it was like a sheep bladder? Well, not a bladder. Originally stomach? But the whole freaking like animal. Like you take a small animal and think about it, it's got like holes for three drones, a chanter, the blowpipe, and then one extra.
+
+[25:09] You only got to sew up one hole, and uh, you know, and you're good to go. You know, in fact, I saw a guy playing I saw a guy playing a small goat skin bagpipe where you could see the outline of the goat in grease when remember that in the start? Yeah, anyway, so we uh I feel like your memoirs could be called you've only got to sew up one hole. So one hole, baby. I mean think about it.
+
+[25:34] The guy's like, uh, what am I gonna do with this goat skin? Let's turn it into a bag. Hey, I got an idea. Harvey, I got this idea. What if we put a pipe in it?
+
+[25:43] Because that's how this stuff happens. Anyway. I don't know, man. Your Scottish accent is amazing. So anyway, the new the new pipe bags have a zipper in them so that you can open them and air them out, and the really, really some of them Do they fill with spittle?
+
+[25:59] Well, yes, they do. And so this is no joke. They don't recommend. I'm not joking. They have moist it's called moisture management things for the insides of bagping.
+
+[26:11] Totally, a hundred percent. And nowadays, for those of you who want the convenience of a synthetic bag, but really like the feel of a natural leather who doesn't, but like the feel of a natural like leather bag, right? You want the convenience of the synthetic and the feel of the natural. I feel like you're describing my private. Strong enough for a man.
+
+[26:30] But made for a woman. Uh you know what I always say for that one for that for that roll on? I just as soon as it says strong enough for men, I'm like, done, I'm buying it. They're like, but it's made for a woman. Don't care.
+
+[26:38] You say it was strong enough for me. That's what I'm buying. Anyway, uh they make a synthetic bag coated with leather now. It's called a hybrid bag. Wow.
+
+[26:47] With a zippa and moisture management. Although I don't I don't recommend you go for the moisture management. But so am I right in assuming that bag juices have a different connotation with bag pipes. Hanging in there. Yeah.
+
+[26:58] I think you are exactly correct. Bag juices in a bagpipe are to be avoided. And uh bag juices in your meat are to be used like well, hey, here's another one. Appropriately shepherded. Yes.
+
+[27:09] I uh so like uh here's a piece of equipment that nobody has anymore. The gravy separator. Remember the gravy separator? Oh yeah, the it looks like a measuring cup with a little spout comes up from the bottom. That's right.
+
+[27:21] I've thrown away many of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many, many, many, right? I mean, with it with I I would assume that since your Twitter, uh, since your Instagram handle is grease-trapped that you would have a bunch enough that you could throw away 20 and still have some left. But uh but the my point is is that uh if you if let's say you're cooking, let's say you're not using a vacuum machine, let's say you're doing the Ziploc technique for sealing a piece of meat, you're always gonna seal it in with a little bit of oil, otherwise you're not gonna get a good uh seal around it.
+
+[27:47] Uh and so there you can separate the juices from the oil with one of those separator doodads. Uh you know, Ariel's like, why don't you just use a separatory funnel? Because they don't have a separatory funny funnel, Ariel. Come on. And uh and then you can do come on.
+
+[28:02] And then you can use the oil for your garlic bread, and you can use and you know, where's garlic bread gone, people? Garlic bread is was like one of the great 70s staples. Where's garlic bread gone? It remains great. It's it's do you need to make garlic bread great again?
+
+[28:17] I think we need to make people great again such that they enjoy the garlic bread. When was the last time you went out and were like, I want garlic bread? Bring garlic bread to the table. It just doesn't happen anymore. It's not offered to the offer it here at Roberto's.
+
+[28:30] I could see getting garlic bread here. I mean, I love garlic bread. You know what the other thing is is you know what they buy now, the kids, the kids, the millennial freaks, they buy, they buy this thing called garlic knots, which is like you go to the guy at the pizza store. What do you got against garlic knots? Wow.
+
+[28:44] A guy at a pizza store, not to use the same accent again, but the guy at the pizza store is like, yo, I got all this overproof dough. What the hell am I gonna do with it? Tie it into a knot, paint some freaking grease on it, put some garlic pot on it, throw it in the oven for five minutes, boom, garlic knots. Bada bing. And you're already eating pizza.
+
+[28:59] What the hell do you need a garlic knot for if you're already eating freaking pizza? And the garlic knot is fundamentally useless without the marinara sauce, just eat another slice of pizza. But would you rather have garlic bread instead of the garlic knot? Is that what you're saying? Not when I'm having pizza, but when I'm having steak, garlic bread.
+
+[29:15] But nobody said you have to eat it with pizza. Well, I'm going to the pizzeria just to get freaking garlic knots and no pizza? It's not a garlic notteria. You know what I mean? And like 2017's hottest startup.
+
+[29:27] Yeah. Anyways. And like I remember the first time someone said garlic knots. I'm like, garlic nuts? What the hell are you talking about?
+
+[29:34] And he's like, no, not garlic knots. I'm like, what? I still can remember it. I remember to this day. It happened sometime.
+
+[29:40] The garlic knot thing happened. And I'm gonna want to say like mid-90s, I want to say. Have you ever used bag juices in the making of garlic knots? Or do you think that they could help them? No, but I have used it in garlic bread.
+
+[29:51] So to get back to like where we once started, let's say, let's say you're going to uh take a bread that's like slightly stale and you're gonna do I hate what's that Catalonian thing where they they mash up tomatoes. That stuff is terrible. It's bad. Like they love it. I don't like the bread and the tomato quality, unless it's the right season is garbage.
+
+[30:11] But they serve it all year. If you make it out of garbage, it tastes like garbage. But they serve it all year. Anyways, like you can use the meat juices for a situation like that to slightly moisten some hard bread in a rust situation to put some stuff on top of it, and it's good. I've done that.
+
+[30:24] And then the oil, if you're gonna you can use the oil for garlic bread as a separate thing. Anyways. Uh take a quick break. We'll come back with uh maybe some questions that people wrote in. I hope so.
+
+[30:34] Uh call in all of your uh questions to the cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more.
+
+[31:03] Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Step's amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dundess for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[31:32] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. Contrary to what you just heard, today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook. For free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com.
+
+[32:02] Or is it actually Dave? Is it brought to us by both people or what? Yeah, obviously. Usually brought to you means it's break brought to you. Like what of two people?
+
+[32:11] Like it's got two handles. Well, when you watch TV, do you only see one commercial between? Yeah, no, no, Dave, here's the thing, right? Imagine yourself on a litter and all of these brands are supporting the litter beneath you. So I'm like a pharaoh, and like there that means I need four people.
+
+[32:28] One at each handle for the children. You could you could work harder to bring that pizza you're holding right now? That's what that's what this is going toward. Yeah, but here Dave, here's the thing. Brought to you is like the old school 50s situation where like palm olive buys the whole show.
+
+[32:42] Nowadays it's like you wouldn't say that they brought it to you. I don't know I'll have to bring that up with legal. You know what I mean? It's not a bring situation, it's a help to make possible situation. Viewers like you.
+
+[32:55] Which is in fact how we work. Listeners like you. Semantics, Dave. Semantics, man. Life's all about semantics, Peter, especially for a writer.
+
+[33:03] Come on. All right. Maybe that's why my magazine is out here. All right, wait, uh Dave, we're that wasn't even me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[33:17] We had dueling uh air horns here. The members told me to lay back on the sound effects, so really? Are they not a fan of like air horns? I don't know. So Dax.
+
+[33:27] Oh, Jesus. So Dax Dax has been doing this recently, has this, but he's he has the Wilhelm screen, uh, Scream as one of his uh air horn effects. Oh, nice. So he's been Wilhelm screaming me all the time. Speaking of Wilhelm Scream, um I'm slowly, and we talked about this, I think last week as well.
+
+[33:44] I'm slowly introducing Dax to the œuvre of uh Arnold Schwarzenegger. So we started with Terminator, which is a good place to start, not with Conan, because I consider that pre-the real Schwarzenegger. I mean it's good, right? Right. So, you know, or like Hercules in New York, not going there.
+
+[34:00] No, no, no, no. Like late 70s porno work he did. That's much later. Uh not in chronology, but in when you introduce her kid to that. So started with Terminator, and I was surprised to see Bill Paxton as one of the punks.
+
+[34:15] I was like, oh, Bill Paxton. And then, of course, what do you what do you introduce him to after the Terminator, everybody? The greatest movie ever made, come on. Uh Total Recall. Ooh.
+
+[34:25] Yes, but not that Commando. Oh wow. Wow. Commando is what I like to call not the best movie ever made, but it's a perfect movie. It's structurally perfect.
+
+[34:36] Oh, wait, no, I'm thinking of Predator now. Um, what happened to Commando? Commando, uh nothing really. He just goes around killing people. No.
+
+[34:43] No. I'm not sure. I can see why you flummed out a film. This is part of its beauty and its simplicity. No, no, no.
+
+[34:50] Here's what happens. Arnold Schwarzenegger. There's a lot of eye black, right? At the end. Arnold Schwarzenegger is leading an idyllic life.
+
+[34:57] You know what's another good uh the movie at setting up the ridiculous idyllic life is FaceOff, right? So like in like in Commando, they set up the ridiculous idyllic life that Arnold Schwarzenegger has with Alyssa Milano, who's Oh, yeah, seeing the beginning of the movie. Who's been hot the her the entire time because uh she's my age, so I'm allowed, you know, I was allowed to like think she was good looking when she was like twelve, and now well. Uh anyway, so they have like an improbable, beautiful house on a clifftop. That's right.
+
+[35:23] Idyllic life, and he likes to fish and get ice cream shoved in his face and all this other stuff. So these people want him to kill uh this leader in another country. So they kidnap the daughter, put him on an airplane, and he has exactly 11 hours to find his daughter and kill everyone involved, or they find out that he's not on that airplane and the daughter dies. So it's got a time limit. He finds Radon Chong amazing, right?
+
+[35:48] Old school Radon Chong. Right. I mean, amazing. So and he goes to an island and kills every living creature on this island. So it's like perfectly contained movie.
+
+[35:56] There's a reason for everything, it's super tight from a movie structure standpoint. So I I introduce him to it, Dax to it, and then I realize that like Bitpart again, Bill Paxton is in commando. Maybe they were buddies back in the day. Maybe you should get them both on the show. Well, Bill Caston just died.
+
+[36:14] God, so maybe that's another reason my magazine is closing. When Radon Chong is not enough reverence for Bill Paxton, apparently. Right, when Radon Chong is uh flying uh twister demographic sure is vocal. The Coast Guard is like, you must land immediately, and that person was Bill Paxton, and then uh Arnold Schwarzenegger was like, just fly below the radar, and they fly below the radar, and Bill Caxton's like, I lost him, and that was it. So your order of great Schwarzenegger movies starts with Terminator?
+
+[36:44] Or is this for appropriateness of introducing to a child and how old is the child you're introducing these movies to. Well, okay, so he wasn't interested in Schwarzenegger until he saw at a friend's house kindergarten cop, which is a good way to get your feet wet. It's not the tuma. Great way to get your feet wet. Then he was like, okay, I'm interested in the Schwarzenegger thing.
+
+[37:04] So you gotta start with the breakout role of Terminator because I mean, come on. Terminator is a great movie. And how old is this Booker or Dax? Is his Booker doesn't like movies. This is Dax.
+
+[37:15] And how old is Dax? Twelve. Okay. So he can handle some of the themes of a Schwarzenegger movie. Man, you know, and when I know, I know when someone's gonna get a skewer through the head because I've seen the movie like a billion times.
+
+[37:26] Right. So he also saw Terminator 2, so I'm like, avert your eyes while you know T T 1000 like shoves his like metal finger thingy. Yeah, or whatever it was. That was my favorite movie. Yeah, my dad took me to see Robocop when I was about that age.
+
+[37:38] Oh my god, what a good movie. What a good movie. They remade that though recently, didn't they? Yeah, with a guy that I like. Disregard.
+
+[37:45] I like the guy who's in the new one. I forget his name, but I like him. He's a good actor. But yeah, first of all, like why would you redo Robocop? Right.
+
+[37:53] Okay, we should we should talk about food, but Dave, what's your favorite Robocop part? I have two. Wait, say that again. What's your favorite part of Robocop? Um there are two that stick right out, right out.
+
+[38:06] You have 15 seconds to comply. I like all the I like all the in-between, like the fake commercials, actually. Oh, really? I like it when the guy messes with the robot and he shoots the guy in the boardroom, classic. And the other when the bad guy gets coated with uh toxic waste.
+
+[38:21] Remember that part? Classic trope. Oh, yeah, the ball guy genre. Yeah. Well, he was bald after he got dipped in acid, that's for sure.
+
+[38:28] Anyway, let's uh don't even get me started with this with this era of movies. Yeah, you want to take call? Sure, call her, you're on the air. Hey David Troncole from Falston, Maryland. I have a question for you about soda stream and carbonation.
+
+[38:41] Sure. I've been going through the backlog for like the fast past four years and I've noticed that uh you like your uh water heavily carbonated like I do. The top of the soda stream says to three buzzes for a normal carbonation. But I like to do like eight to ten farts before I really get it up there. Yeah.
+
+[38:59] Um my question is, can you uh is there a saturation point with the water? Yes or can it handle all that? Am I wasting it by doing that much? Most likely, but it's a very satisfying waste. So like uh probably I would like to clear up one misunderstanding here though, is that Dave likes carbonated water more than any other human, and he likes his water more carbonated, more specifically carbonated than any other human I've ever encountered.
+
+[39:27] Maybe you can talk us through some of your carbonation preferences after you address the soda stream. Yeah, I mean, I'll say this. I don't stop at three because if there's even the chance of getting marginally more carbonation in, I will do it. But you know there's not. Okay.
+
+[39:42] There most likely is not. Uh here's the one thing uh I'm not a scientist, I can't actually say that I'm I'm I'm just a guy with the magazine who's closing. Here here's what I'll say about it. Uh one of the issues with the soda stream is getting the water as physically cold as is humanly possible. Right.
+
+[39:58] I'd when I fill up my bottle, I put I use a funnel then um put ice cubes in the funnel and then run water through the ice cubes into the bottle and then I carbonate it. All right, good, good. And yeah, good. All right, good. So you're following all the all the advice.
+
+[40:10] The soda stream people are like I don't know them personally, so I can't say that they are garbage. But the um like the rules that they have about um like cocktails and whatnot, if they had just designed the fart valve a little better, like you could have done so like they could have allowed so many um like better things. Uh here's what you need to do. If you're a carbonation freak, just buy the freaking adapter that allows you to adapt the soda stream to a 20-pound tank. And then you don't have to worry about wasting the farts on the on the thing because you're gonna have so much CO2 that you're not gonna know what to do with it.
+
+[40:49] 20-pound tank is the way to go. Like, without question, a 20-pound tank is the way to go. And you should do that. Like, how much do you pay for one of those like weenie little cylinders? Um, I think they're like $15.
+
+[41:02] That's absurd. That's ridiculous. I agree, I agree. Yeah, how much do they weigh? How much how much gas is in one of those things?
+
+[41:07] I don't know. I could probably get maybe uh two, three dozen bottles out of it. That's an abomination. That's crazy. It's nuts.
+
+[41:13] First of all, carbonation should be free, just like the internet. It should just come like from God. It's a right to do it. Tap water should be carbonated. That's right, which is why I want to move to Saratoga Springs, where I never wrote uh by the way, I owe Peter uh an article, and so I was waiting until the magazine closed to say, hey, I'm gonna write the article now because then it's too late.
+
+[41:35] Strong. Strong move. Strong move. I respect that. Yeah, but so like uh the pictures you sent of me bathing in sparkling water springs will be indelibly burned into my mind.
+
+[41:44] There's a picture of me in a in I I you cannot tell that I'm naked, thankfully, but I am in fact, which I hate to be naked ever, but I am naked in the water because you have to be. Are you a never nude? I'm never nude. I'm an antibus. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but I'm never, I'm never ever nude.
+
+[42:02] There's always like some scrap of clothing on me at all times. Cutoffs. I'm with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just don't feel I don't like I'm no one no, naked.
+
+[42:10] When I shower. Naked. Temporarily. We're getting them into the arrested development territory here. Yeah.
+
+[42:16] Yeah. Anyway. So they're never nude. Yeah. So anyway, so back to the question.
+
+[42:14] I don't know. I I don't think yes, I if I were you, I would buy the adapter. I don't think it costs that. Actually, come to think of it, it's funny. The person who I saw selling the adapter for the soda stream was charging an absurd amount for the device so that you wouldn't pay an absurd amount for your CO2.
+
+[42:37] Yeah, of course. So we should just open source that sucker. And what about when you were doing the whole nitrous CO2 mix? I'm gonna do that, I think, again at the new bar. The problem is getting the nitrous.
+
+[42:46] There's only one company in New York City that will give me like bot bottles of nitrous. And the nitrus price has gone up a lot in the past. Is that because of the Hell's Angels? Why? Are they using a lot of nitrous now in their in their bikes?
+
+[43:00] No, they have a the Hells Angels Clubhouse on Third Street has a uh nitrous line up through the wall into a number of the rooms. So there's just a spigot so you can. Have you been inside the house? No, I have a friend who went. Look at me.
+
+[43:13] Would if you were a Hells Angel, would you let me into one of your parties? No. I don't know. Hunter Thompson got into all the Hells Angels parties. Yeah, but he seemed like a good time.
+
+[43:20] I'm just like a wet blanket with a closing food magazine. So uh anyway, the nitrous, I plan on doing it again. Um I think the way I'm gonna do it, instead of trying to use the gas mixer like I used to use, I think I'm gonna pre-mix 20-pound bottles of gas and then just use that on a separate carbonation line. The problem with um the problem with carbonating out of a mixer is that the mixer can only do up to about 60 PSI, which is enough to do uh ice cold water. But if you want to go into a carbonator, I'm probably gonna need the max the carbonator can do, which is about 125 PSI.
+
+[43:59] And so it's uh it's a little bit a little bit wonky, but I hope to bring back that water. Yeah, it was a 25% nitrous, uh 75% CO2, maximum bubb bubble, fizzy lifting drink kind of a situation. You remember that stuff is great. It was amazing because the sweetness of the nitrous in the sparkling water was yeah. It was just so lively.
+
+[44:18] Yeah. Such a lively bubble. Back when you were young and your water was lively. Back when I was young and I hadn't had the the life beaten out of me by actually like working like a service where the people are like, yeah, it's like you know, you know, it's like to get the life beaten out of the bottom. Now you're just an old portion of bag juice.
+
+[44:34] Do you know who helped turn me into just a sack of bag juice? You're looking at her right here. I feel like she's the only thing that's kept you from turning into full-on bag juice. Full on uncoagulated bag juice. I think there's a whole show that that this could be devoted to.
+
+[44:48] Bag juice. No, no. Well, yeah, you're your change into a bag of juice. Bag of juice. Not even like not even good juice.
+
+[44:56] Are there any other home carbonation systems that you would recommend? Yeah, buy a freaking 20-pound tank and get the liquid bread caps. And then so that's what I do. I use a bag and bot uh so like I have a in my home in New York City, I have carbonation on tap, because duh. I have an ice maker, and in the ice machine is my coal plate, and it just runs and it's on tap.
+
+[45:17] I have a very nice tap. But um up in Connecticut, I have um I just have 20 pound tanks with a with a hose and a and a bag and box connector off of it and liquid bread caps. Now occasionally people complain. They're like, eh, this is I want to use a snowstream. It's too hard to pull on the little gray thing.
+
+[45:37] Oh god! Come on! It's like you know what? If you're too weak to get the bubbles that way, then freak freaking die of thirst. Can you say that in Arnold Schwarzenegger's voice, please?
+
+[45:48] Oh, I can't too angry. I like I can't actually channel him when I'm angry. Okay. Wait, that reminds me. One more question, if I may.
+
+[45:55] Yes. Over the years I've loved the voices that you do. Your Brooklyn guy, the New Jersey guy, I love them all. Have you ever been approached by anybody to do cartoon overtones or anything like that? No, if you know anyone, send them a little vo a little voice work acting.
+
+[46:09] Do you know Nastasi and I at one point were contemplating doing the Jersey Bible, where the entire Bible would be read in New Jersey. But then we thought that some people might get offended by it, and so like we never pursued it. That's awesome. You would totally take ass on family guy, dude. Well, you know, that's hey, hey, as like I say to everyone else, like, here I am to sell myself.
+
+[46:30] Just send someone who wants to buy. Uh but that's uh right? Anyway. All right. Hey, I got a question from the chat room for Peter.
+
+[46:38] It's a little controversial. Uh-oh. Uh let me read this word for word. Who took Lucky Peach from the slightly serious but a casual feeling to a lot of stunt food type content? Me.
+
+[46:53] Wait, so stunt food as a pejorative or I I assume. I don't I don't know. I'll t I'll take that hit. All right. What's what's a stunt food?
+
+[47:02] I don't know. I mean, I am interested in um I don't I don't think that we're doing anything stuntier now than we did back in the day. I've always been interested in uh things that are so smart they're stupid. So um you know, I feel like the in the final issue where I'm going to be. Yeah, you know, like what that we're working on right now.
+
+[47:26] Um Ariel and I were talking about she was working on something for the the website, and it turned in from like a 400-word like answer a simple question thing into like a 3,000 six months later? Yeah, six months later research piece about how we taste wine, and the last issue of of new content we're doing is the suburbs. And I was like, I was like, this is so good. I wanted to, I want to put it in the last issue. And so I've made uh uh a new front of book section for our last issue called Wednesday Night Wine Club, and it's gonna be populated with uh Anna Heasel, who's now at Taste, who's written Deranged Crafts for Us, did a tasting of all these brands of mommy wines, and then uh mommy wines?
+
+[48:08] Yeah, like mommy's timeout and Kathy's. What does that mean? It's a thing. It's a whole marketing segment. What does mommy like to drink that I don't like to drink?
+
+[48:15] It turns out that I don't want to spoil it. White in uh Ridge made a white zin for a little while that was kind of a cool thing to find. But he apparently makes one. I haven't had it yet. Uh button the really oaky Chardonnay that the kids at UC Davis would call cougar crack.
+
+[48:30] Yeah, but you you put a couple ice cubes in that and some sparkling water. I don't know. Like I can find any reason to drink any wine. Is a cougar a specific age or a specific age going after a younger dude? Can you like can you be a cougar and be age appropriate or not?
+
+[48:43] No, no, no. It's always it's always a younger man. Okay, just curious. So the prey determines the predator? I suppose in that case, it's a very like phalloc view of things.
+
+[48:54] Yeah, sadly. Yeah. So I was just never clear on that. Dave, you're a cougar to me, is all I want to say. Sounds like a song.
+
+[49:02] Dave, you want to take one take one more caller before we go? Oh man, we got okay, okay. Zero question. Uh oh, by the way, people, I just want you to know mine because I'm not here on Monday, so you can go through all them. I mean, Tuesday Nastasia's birthday is next week.
+
+[49:14] So you can send your happy birthday wishes to Nastasia Lopez, who will be chilling in Rome on the Spanish steps, you know, hopefully violently ill. Who kids? Not really. Not really. I'm just messing with it.
+
+[49:26] Drinking White Zinfandel, enjoying herself. Imagine go to go to Rome, be like, you got any white zin over here? Come on. You know what I mean? Like, imagine?
+
+[49:35] That'd be amazing. Like, uh, yeah, enough with the enough with the smash stars. I want my smashed artichokes, but I won't white sin with them. You know what I mean? You like the smashed artichokes?
+
+[49:47] Yeah. Yeah. What is that stuff called? Carchofi what? I don't know.
+
+[49:49] Carchofi like a Udia? Well, it is a Jewish. I mean, yeah, all those things are, but like, doesn't it have like another name or not? I thought that was the Roman name for it. I don't know.
+
+[49:58] You're gonna be pounding the salting boca over there? You don't like salty boca? That's a personal question. You don't like salty boca? What the hell?
+
+[50:06] You have a caller and then. Caller, you're on the air. I'm so angry at Nastasia for not liking salting boca uh that I'm it's hard for me to concentrate, but go ahead. Salting Boca's delicious. How do you not like sage prosciutto veal where you lightly flower it and then like saute that mother in butter?
+
+[50:23] I don't think I've ever had a good one. Caller, you're on the air. Did we lose you, call it? Wait, uh, am I on the air? Yes.
+
+[50:30] Hello, caller. I have a three-part question. Uh first. Go ahead. First, I should say first time, long time.
+
+[50:37] But um, my first question is um, do you guys have a favorite film in the alien series? My second question is do you guys have a favorite um comedic Arnold Schwarzenegger film? And my third part is Peter. Would you mind if I as an employee of yours went home at around two today? No, no, I know, I know you Peter at it about that hour, so no, that's totally cool.
+
+[50:57] Um in terms of the alien. What's he gonna do? Fire you? My new sign off for emails is you'll never work for this magazine again. Oh, that's so awesome.
+
+[51:10] Uh I've I've never personally seen an alien movie, so I can't. I was I I don't know. I lived a sheltered ex- I don't have an excuse. There was a new subway ad. They keep making them, though, right?
+
+[51:21] The original has both the the guy playing Mumble D peg with the with the uh with with the knife. No, no, that's aliens. Yeah. No, that's the first one. That's alien.
+
+[51:31] No, Lance Hendrickson is an aliens, the second one. Wow. Because it's Bill fucking sorry. Oh, family show. I like the one with Game Overman!
+
+[51:40] Yeah, I like Game Over! That's Alien. And they're playing the Mumble D peg. That's the best one. That's aliens.
+
+[51:45] The worst is Alien versus Predator. That doesn't even count. No, it stops after Alien 3. Okay. And comedic Arnold Schwarzenegger.
+
+[51:52] Uh Twins? Okay, so is are you a twins person or like a kindergarten cop kind of a person? I've never seen kindergarten copies. And this is why your magazine is closing. Like have you seen uh have you what about the one where he's pregnant?
+
+[52:13] That's the only one I haven't seen. I haven't seen the one when he's pregnant. I haven't seen the one where he was pregnant. I think it's called Look Who's Pregnant Now or something like this. I swear to God, this movie happened.
+
+[52:23] It's called Junior, according to our communications director. Nice. Yeah, I have not seen it. No, but now when you say junior, when you say junior. I'm really glad I didn't know about that during the pregnancy of my Jewish elderly because I'm not sure.
+
+[52:33] I have the line ruined everything. What's the Beastie Boy song where at the end he goes, Junior? You know that time? It's on uh I think it's on ill communication. Anyways, um I would have to go with Twins is probably the best.
+
+[52:47] Twins is probably the best. Kindergarten cop has a lot of good lines in it, but probably twins. And it's a heartwarming family show, like this show. Everything with Danny DeVito is a heartwarming family show. I like his I I emulate his uh the way he parents from Matilda.
+
+[53:04] That's my parenting style, is Danny DeVito from Matilda. Have you ever tried his Lemoncello? I have not. Have you? He has his own brand of lemon cello.
+
+[53:12] I'm not a huge Limoncello guy. Who's a huge lemoncello guy? There are no huge lemoncello guys. Except for Danny DeVito. How is this lemoncello?
+
+[53:21] I haven't had it. Compare it to like Polini's. Or compare it to like Cabo Wabo. Like, let's do it. We should have a celebrity liquor tasting here.
+
+[53:27] Okay, we did celebrity. Well, we did celebrity wine. We did not do celebrity liquor here. We could get Soderbergh. That was the therapist I've ever been at Heritage Radio.
+
+[53:36] Let's not talk about that. We could get the same crew back, plus Cater. Doesn't Santana have a tequila? I hope. If you were Santana, wouldn't you have a tequila?
+
+[53:44] Oh, absolutely. Cheech has a tequila. A mezcal, actually. Cheech is a very smart man, by the way. Cheech, very smart man.
+
+[53:50] Oh, we could drink Crystal Skull. Uh Dan Aykroyd's beverage? No? No? No, why not?
+
+[53:57] Wow, Dave. Harsh. Hating on Dan Aykroyd or on the Crystal Stall? Or on Herkimer Diamonds, aka Quartz. Maybe a little bit of all three.
+
+[54:05] I could use a couple more like glass skulls on top of my bookcase. Everybody could. Yeah. You know what I looked up on? Alright, they're gonna kick me off.
+
+[54:12] I answered no questions, so please send in no new questions because I have all the questions. Nope. I have closing. I have a bunch of questions to answer next week. Um, so we'll deal with all that next week.
+
+[54:23] No new questions because we did all callers. Uh, I've enjoyed having you on, Peter. I've enjoyed being have on. Uh, and if anyone's if any of you want the celebrity liquor thing, I'm sure we can make that happen, but you have to like tweet on in or tell Nastasia that you really wanted to have it happen because she's the one who gets things done around here when she's not hanging out in Rome drinking white Zen. She's the only person.
+
+[54:45] Why are you checking luggage to Rome? You're only bringing like three changes of you know, one change of clothes. I know Nastasia. She's like all the white Zen. Had to check it.
+
+[54:52] It's liquid. Uh but, Dave, do I have to read this mid roll on the way out? No, didn't you read that already? No, I read the pre-roll. Oh, dude.
+
+[55:01] Yeah, read the mid roll. All right. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. JD Chris and Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, by the way, uh, circular breathe when I'm doing bagpipes.
+
+[55:22] Did you know that? You gotta like circular breathe sometimes. Maybe you don't. You also do that when you're playing like clarinet bass recorders. Do you know how you do it?
+
+[55:29] You're gonna be the Ornette Coleman of bagpipes. Yeah. Uh uh I. Dead. Wow.
+
+[55:36] Harsh, Dave. Keep reading. All right. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast. No matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you.
+
+[55:43] They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks. And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. And yes, they called you a culinary tool, Nastasia.
+
+[56:16] Thanks, guys, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[56:51] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[57:16] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Itro is coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, you know, around 12 or so to about one o'clock. Uh uh from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Oh, got uh as usual, David in the booth.
+
+[0:58] We do not have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because she she might be in the middle of the air right now over the Atlantic Ocean, or maybe somewhere over Europe. She was in Rome for her birthday. I think either today or tomorrow or something like that. So uh in her stead, we have uh Don Lee, the I decided maybe I should stop calling you since like we work together a lot. Maybe I should stop calling you evil in public.
+
+[1:25] And I'm just gonna go to Puppet Master. It could be evil, you know. What do you prefer? Evil cocktail overlord or pub cocktail public. The true evil is convincing you that it's not evil.
+
+[1:34] Right. That's what now, when you were in, let's say you're in Star Wars. Okay, the Emperor is By the way, call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 718 4972128. Do you really think that like Luke and or Anakin didn't think that that stuff was evil what the Emperor said?
+
+[1:54] That's the thing, it doesn't work about that movie. When he's like, you know, strike me down. I mean, obviously you're not supposed to. I mean, he's been he's been treated the entire time, you know, told not to do that. Luke's from likes these this backwaters, you know, and so is Anakin.
+
+[2:06] So it's not like they grew up with like movies and novels. So okay, here's where we're gonna get all like a hate down from people, but like you ever read the Old Testament? Yeah. Yeah. So you read the Old Testament and you're like, hello, like you were there, like the people who were on the initial trek out of uh Egypt, right?
+
+[2:22] Right, right. Like, let's say you see the Red Sea part. You're walking on dry freaking land, right? Could be moist. Moist.
+
+[2:31] Right, but you're not sinking in. Right. Right. You're walking across it, and then it closes up behind you and swallows your enemies. Right.
+
+[2:36] Well, all the plagues before, you know, right. All that. Like, oh, you know, why would you make a golden calf is your question? That's right. Right.
+
+[2:43] Makes no sense. Right. The guy that saved you says, you know, wait here, chill. Chill. Yeah.
+
+[2:47] I'm gonna go get some stuff. And it's like, no, golden calf immediately. Right. But it's the same thing as Star Wars. So I mean, it's the same, it's very similar idea.
+
+[2:56] It seems unbelievable from the outside, but it must be that when you're living in that time. Right. Well, and if you get into the like no now defunct uh expanded universe, uh, the emperor was a huge space racist. What first of all, first of all, expanded universe. Yeah, he was.
+
+[3:11] And and and what do you mean now defunct? The universe imploded, it's already uh when Disney took over Lucas, they kind of said, okay, everything that's in the expanded universe, not canon anymore. Because they're gonna make it. So what? If I pay a trillion dollars, like I can't erase the crusades.
+
+[3:30] Yeah, but this isn't the crusades, this is fiction. Well, it is and it isn't. I mean, like, you know, I'm sure some of the people that already worked on it are dead. Now their work's erased. Yeah.
+
+[3:39] It's well, it's not part of the canon. It's part of this like legacy thing. So, you know, Han and uh Leia no longer have twins who have the force. Uh, Grand Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist. Wait, who doesn't have the force anymore?
+
+[3:49] Uh well, they don't have kids anymore. Well, they got Kylo Wren. Spoilers, if you haven't seen the uh this is all too confusing, Don. Like, why can't they just like leave well enough alone? Well, you know, because it's Disney, it's the mouse.
+
+[4:01] And he, you know, in the same way that the mouse will live forever in the copyrights and will always be putting out mouse products. Now Star Wars is going to be there forever, you know, for the next for the rest of eternity, there's going to be a new Star Wars property every year. And the movies are like top tier canon, like all the books, that's just kind of like secondary. Right. But no, first of all, let's straighten this all out, people.
+
+[4:21] Canon is canon. There is no tier within the canon. It's all canon. Well, no, there's not. No, there's there's the trilogy series, and then there's these stories, the side stories.
+
+[4:30] No one, no one's like, no one's like, you know what? Deuteronomy, we're gonna throw that crap away, but Genesis we're gonna keep. Isn't that called the New Testament? No, we'll keep that stuff. Not really.
+
+[4:40] That doesn't count anymore. No, no, there is a Bible analogy isn't it? There's stuff in the New Testament that supersedes some of the old stuff. Right. So that's different.
+
+[4:49] So they're saying, like, you know, all that old stuff, that actually didn't happen. That was a fever dream. No one said that. No one said that. Disney's saying that.
+
+[4:54] In the New Testament, that never happened. Yeah, but Disney's saying that. You know, it's a that was a thing, you know, people were spinning their yarns, but now this is the real thing. Anyway, again, this is not obviously we're not supposed to be talking about religion, and I guess not Star Wars either. And we're not supposed to be talking about it, which is religion for some.
+
+[5:09] It's true. Recognize religion. Right. It's not a political show, not a religion show, and not a it's a family friendly show. Yeah.
+
+[5:19] In general, Disney. Family friendly. They are very friendly friendly. I will not say anything negative against the Disney Corporation other than I think it's ridiculous to like add and array stuff out of uh Canon. Yeah.
+
+[5:31] So let me uh Dave, you want me to get the pre-roll out out of the way, actually somewhat pre. Yeah, yeah, bang it out. Today's you know, the thing is, Dave, I still did you look into this? We're brought to by like two people. You can't be brought to by two separate people.
+
+[5:44] You can you can edit the copy on the fly if you want. Well if they brought you halfway each. Is this like one of those footsteps in the sand freaking things? Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit modernistpantry.com.
+
+[6:04] And better yet, visit blog.modernistpantry.com. All right. That's beautiful. Thank you. All right.
+
+[6:09] So Don, you brought some uh interesting snacks here. What do you got here? I got here uh no mouth noises on air. No mouth noises. I got a couple of weird snacks from uh Sophie's dad.
+
+[6:18] And uh the first is a sweet butter flavored fried oyster snacks that they suggest you use instead of bacon bits on uh on your salads. I can believe that. I can believe that. And this is from where's this from? This is uh product of Korea.
+
+[6:35] All right. We'll try that, we'll rip that open, we'll eat some during the break. What's the other one? The other one is some kind of like fried all crunchy olive. It's a sour cream and onion flavor.
+
+[6:45] I don't know where that's from. And it's named Sky Cielos? Yeah. Is that does that mean sky? I don't know.
+
+[6:53] Made by Dumet. Possibly Dumay. All right, we'll try those in a minute. Meanwhile, let's get to some questions. Uh oh, yeah, we gotta caller, caller.
+
+[7:01] You're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Ron uh from New York. Can you hear me? Yeah.
+
+[7:06] Hey, so I have a quick question followed by another follow-up question. Uh one is I have a friend who's um making some fresh sausage and serving it outdoors. So we want to parcook it in a combi oven. That's all he's got. He doesn't have an emergency circulator or anything like that.
+
+[7:14] Wait, wait, wait. Let's back up. You have a friend who owns a combi oven and not an immersion circulator? Don't ask, yeah. He was convinced that he needed a combi oven.
+
+[7:31] Does this person still have a mother? Is this person's mother still alive? Get her to slap him. How do you not have a circulator and you own a combi oven? That's the that might be the I'm I'm gonna answer your question in a sec, but that might be the most ridiculous thing I've heard in I'm gonna make up a number here, the past 22 days.
+
+[7:54] I will let him know that. Yeah, okay. You know what? You know what circulators cost now? Like nothing.
+
+[7:58] They're like potato chips. They're like 150 dollars. And he's got a combi oven. You got some rich taste potato chips. The electricity bill, even on a gas oven.
+
+[8:08] The electricity bill on a combi oven is gonna those nice ones. Yeah, it's gonna far exceed. But I mean, uh okay, whatever. Go ahead, go ahead. Question.
+
+[8:17] So anyway, he he's got a fresh sauce. We have fresh sausages that we want to par cook in the combi oven. I just wanted to I'm assuming 100% steam. Yes. Um I just want to know time and temperature.
+
+[8:28] What's the follow-up question would be What's what size sausage is? How does the steam work in a combi oven when it's set under 212? So have you read the uh have you read uh Modernist Cuisine actually has a uh a good explanation of uh this. Um so and uh I guess they don't do uh look inside. But uh if you have access to modernist cuisine, I recommend you go look at it.
+
+[8:52] But basically what they do is it kind of I'm sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna take this uh question off to the air. I gotta I gotta run. Okay, all right. So uh thank you so much. All right, no problem.
+
+[8:59] So I'll I'll may I'll give you the answer. So the combi ovens, uh what they do is they inject steam into the oven and then uh like that kind of it cancels out over over the over the period. So the temperature actually kind of fluctuates a bit. The steam is always being created above the temperature of boiling water, and then when it goes into the oven, they just uh don't inject enough of it to raise the uh temperature of the oven uh high enough, and they have a giant fan and they vent out anything that they're not using to keep the that's one of the reasons there's such monsters on electricity, and one of the reasons why something like a uh CVAP oven, while it doesn't have nearly the uh power that a combi oven has, takes much less electricity to run because they're just maintaining it by using the Louisiana method of uh existing, which is just constantly be soaked in water all of the time. Right.
+
+[9:53] So like in Louisiana, like, you know, that's it. It's like a hundred percent humidity, you live in, you know, you live in a delta. You're that's it. You got a hundred percent humidity. That's what you got.
+
+[10:04] And so in a CVAP oven, i if you know if you're below uh if you're below um the uh if you're you know, if you're below boiling, they just heat the water up to the same temperature as the oven cavity, and then that's it. You're in a hundred percent humidity situation. Now, you're not getting huge energy transfer over. It's not like it's nowhere near the energy transfer that you're gonna get out of a um out of a uh immersion circulator, which is a measly hundred and fifty dollar investment. Uh now the good news about a combi oven, a real combi oven, is they do have very good energy transfer at the expense of accuracy, especially uh in the lower uh registers.
+
+[10:41] Now, when you have a combi oven that's gonna have maybe 10 degrees, 15 degrees of swing uh over, I forget what it is. I wish I'd known it was gonna get called in because I would have just looked it up a modernist uh modernist cuisine because they you know they have all the stats there. But uh it's a good big swing, and uh what you're looking for in a combi oven is what I would like to call the the the integral of the number. So the the if you it were to integrate the temperature swing over time, it would come out to be relatively even. And so then the question is how thick of a food item do you need in there before uh it basically smooths out to being an e even temperature?
+
+[11:20] And so whether or not that makes a big difference in your sausage is highly dependent on how thick your sausage is. Uh that sounded bad. That sounded bad. I was gonna say something, but it's a family show. Family show.
+
+[11:32] Family show. That sounded terrible. It didn't. Uh the length of your sausage doesn't make any difference in this case. That's really the girth.
+
+[11:39] It's really the girth of the sausage that makes a difference. Again, family show. Wow. Uh the good news about sausages is that there are sausages where the temperature you cooked them to is is important. For instance, let's say that you're an enemy of quality and you uh craft a low-fat sausage.
+
+[11:58] Right. But let's say you craft a low-fat sausage. Low-fat sausage, if you overcook a low-fat sausage, it's like an overcooked hamburger. It's garbage. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:08] It's like it's gonna be garbage. Um, which is why you should never do that. But you can do that if you um if you're using like low temperature cooking with kind of just a finish off. But uh, in general, for me, like uh doing a low temperature cook on a sausage is just making sure they're all done through without having them cook forever, and it lets you do a real fast finish, and they tend not to split as much, you tend not to explode your casings as much. So I would do um I typically do 140 Fahrenheit, which is 60 Celsius, and you know, you you know, depending on how thick the sausage is, you can uh you know, I usually put them in like an hour before I'm gonna uh use them, and then you they can just ride there for as long as you want, and then you can you know, if you want to, if you think they're riding a long time and you think you're getting texture changes, which you probably won't, because remember ground anyway, I would just you know, you could turn it down a couple of notches to like you know, one 135, which is uh, you know, 57, somewhere like that, and let it ride.
+
+[13:08] Now, uh some people are gonna think it's too pink on the inside at 140, but if you're actually riding it at 140, which is 60 Celsius, and then you sear them off on a grill, then everyone's gonna love them. Yeah, you said he was gonna parcook them, finish them later. So yeah, so I would do that. I mean, it's enough of a cook, and then so if you're gonna cook them, parcook them and then chill them all the way down and then uh and then like fry them from cold, you could go a degree or two higher, but I really don't think you need to. I l don't I like my sausage at 140 at 60.
+
+[13:41] So, you know, I would test one and and see whether you like it like that. It's it's gonna have shades of pa the pinkness will still be in the center when you roll it off and fry it. But I'm okay with that. And again, it depends. Let's say you're doing those little thin Ligurian sausages, they take like like no time.
+
+[13:57] And so, you know, uh those, you know, uh even just to finish off is gonna probably depink the the inside. But if you're doing like, you know, but killbasa's already cooked, but if you're doing something with that form factor, like a large Italian sausage, and yeah. What you should never do with a sausage is try to grill it from raw. That's a huge enemy of quality move. I mean, like, you know, the way we were always taught to do it was sausage in the pan, water cover, water evaporates.
+
+[14:24] Yep, you know, but the problem there is is that you're never actually gauging when it's done because you don't know exactly how long the water's gonna take to evaporate, and then it spits and puts that scorching, disgusting nastiness on the bottom of your pan. You're really better off immersion circulator, immersion circulator, either in oil, like oil, like oil poaching sausage is great. Beer poaching works, but the problem is is that the first like the first like 20 or 30 sausages, it doesn't have to be beer, you know what I mean. Like the first 20 or 30 sausages taste different from the next 20, 30, 100, 200 sausages. That's why you need the uh the sausage brand Solera, New York City, you know, streetcar style.
+
+[15:00] Streetcar style, which you know I've drank I've had, I've I bought it and I drank it years and years ago because believe I forget who it was, I think it was timeout in New York. Like they didn't have like they asked me about it. I was like, have you what did you just go taste it? And they're like, No. They're like, did you go t check the temperature?
+
+[15:17] They're like, no. They're like, that's why we're calling you. So I literally went downstairs, I said, here's five dollars. Can I have a styrofoam cup full of your hot dog water? The guy was like, okay.
+
+[15:28] And then I shoved my thermometer in it, registered the temperature, and took a sip. So easy. It's the easiest test in the world to run. This is something I will say to people certain tests are just easier to run than to ask someone how to do it. Yeah.
+
+[15:39] Especially if you live in New York and the hot dog cart is downstairs. Hot dog water, delicious. Tastes exactly like a hot dog. Why hasn't anyone made that ramen yet? I don't know.
+
+[15:48] That sounds like an Ivan Roman question. Yeah. But like, I mean, it's good. It tastes like hot dog. Right.
+
+[15:56] So, like everyone who gets all uh bent about like, you know, leaching flavor out of things and ever you ever notice people get super bent about like leaching flavor out of things? There's no flavor being leached out of a hot dog. Now the texture is going to be the texture of a of a dog that has been in water, but an emulsified sausage, and I won't get into the particulars of this because then Don and I will have to find E trainer one of you and kill you because we have you know we have stuff in the works. But the the um the you know the texture of an emulsified sausage, it already has water in it anyway, and so there's no I mean extra water, excess water in it anyway, because it's a battery you know what I mean that's been emulsified. So there's no reason not to poach them.
+
+[16:38] You know what I mean? Assuming that the flavor, the liquid that you have it in is fully flavored. Right. That was a long-winded well, whatever. Dave, you removed our shot oh no, he turned our shot clock so that the the two strange folks that are eating pizza outside can see what the the radio tells.
+
+[16:56] I have it on my I have it on my phone here. All right. We have uh we have a ramen question actually let's take him to order. We haven't had done any questions. We have any more callers?
+
+[17:05] Uh yeah we do actually all right caller you're on the air. Hey Dave, I I just got a quick uh comment actually. Um I just wanted to comment that the the quality of the show uh the last couple episodes has been fantastic. I've listened to you know all hundred or two hundred episodes I think uh but uh but the the guests recently have been doing a great job of challenging you and providing their own uh perspective it's been hysterically funny um so I just wanted to to thank you for that. And I wanted to make a uh a quick comment that um you know you often say it's a it's a family show, and I think you made that comment just now.
+
+[17:44] You know if you're talking about like how to use methacellulus F50 and all the different techniques, I I don't know that this is really a family show anymore. And I'd actually appreciate a few more uh F bombs and swearing in the show. So that's uh that's just uh my perspective. Thanks for the great show. All right, point taken, but I will say this uh a number of years ago, uh maybe three or four years ago, I got um I got a you know question in, and it you know, it was a question from uh you know the parent of a like 10-year-old who for some reason listened to the show.
+
+[18:23] Who knows why this happens? Bad parenting. Bad parenting. No, but yeah, but who knows why this happens? And then I was like, oh, I don't wanna, you know, because I have kids, so I don't wanna if I'm gonna do something that is, you know, it's earmuff, let them, you know, let people let people know.
+
+[18:38] But, you know, if any of those that know me in the real life, right? Uh Don. Yes. Uh I have a mouth on me. Oh, yeah.
+
+[18:47] I mean, like, you know, like uh uh and and you know, I think Don was on, we were talking about this before in reference to to bars and to you know, kind of how to how to treat your fellow employees in a professional situation in kitchen professional situation. And uh I don't want the salt salty nature of the business to change because then I would have no place in it, right? I mean, like uh so I'm a big user and lover. In fact, my my wife gets very angry because my kids are now old enough that I've started to pepper the salt into uh my daily conversation with the kids, and she's like all mad about it, but you know, I consider uh a good fluid rapid fire, ever-changing burbling of curse words to be the hallmark of a smart person. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:39] It's like I I I think that's right. And uh I I think that uh that that one 10-year-old's uh experience is is sort of uh uh affecting the enjoyment for all of us adults. Well, you know, you gotta you have the code switch though. Sometimes you're in front of the, you know, in front of house, you gotta talk to guests, you you dial it back. Yeah.
+
+[19:58] And then when you go back to the back of the house, you know, you're let loose. As I get older, I think I might have mentioned this on the air, but as I get older, certain things like I've I've like lost, I've lost I've like lost my control, not like yelling at people, but lost my control like uh in front of customers like a couple of times. Like you don't, you know, and and act like they're not a customer, but you don't want to do that. You really don't want to do that. You want to try to stay as uh, you know, two zones as possible.
+
+[20:23] But I will tell you this. We are thinking of doing another Nastasia and I are thinking of doing another uh different radio program, like unrelated to cooking issues, where we basically get to do whatever we want. So the theory of it, see whether you guys like this. The theory of it, and I should I should get to some regular question questions, but like the theory of it is that when you go to dinner, did we already talk about this on air, Dave or not? Uh no, this is news to me.
+
+[20:46] All right. So don't worry, Dave. Not not right away. But the You're leaving me? No, no, we're doing this radio show, but we're gonna do on the network.
+
+[20:53] Oh, okay. And uh uh but not related. So what Don, what what do you not do at dinner? What do you not talk about at dinner? Politics, religion.
+
+[21:02] Right. So what I want to do, and I have ruined so many dinners in my life. Like so many like dinners. I can't see that. Yeah, just obliterated because someone says something, and I'm like, what?
+
+[21:14] And then that's it. You know what I mean? What? And that's it. Uh, and so what uh what we want to do, Nastasi and I, Nastasi and I have these arguments constantly off air too, like half of our time spent arguing with each other.
+
+[21:25] Because believe it or not, Nastasi and I are like very different. Like, I mean, I guess you can believe that anyway. Um, and it extends beyond her dislike of biscuits. But the uh coffee. She's not that she doesn't like coffee, it's that she's ambivalent.
+
+[21:42] It's not that she's ambivalent, she pr specifically buys crap coffee to make me feel like I'm some sort of uh, you know, fancy pants. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. She she would rather drink crappy coffee. She's one of those people who incorrectly believes it's more American to drink crap coffee. And to me, like that's everything I hate.
+
+[22:03] Yeah, like well, that's I hate that. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's it's bad to be snobby about coffee, it's bad to like look down on what somebody else likes. That's bad inherently. But she would also salt the earth just to make fun of you.
+
+[22:16] That's right. Yeah, right. And she also enjoys as you know, to make it back into a family show, yuck yucking my yum. Yeah, she likes to yuck my yum. Anyway, I'm sidetracking you, good.
+
+[22:26] Anyway, uh, so anyway, we want to do a show, and I'm also like, I think all of us, everyone in the country, probably, if they if they have half a brain, is sick of the echo chamber where we're all only hanging out with people that we agree with. That's why family dinners are so interesting, because you don't pick your family, they just show up and they have different views from you do you know, you a lot of the time that you know than you do. And so we want to have people in where we talk about food ostensibly, but then like a bad dinner conversation, it spirals off into religion and politics, and hopefully we get a good group of people together that disagree, and then we just kind of go off on it. Well, you gotta really get Nastasha to be unfiltered though, because she's so buttoned up on this show. Well, if we get someone else who has uh who's slightly crazier than her on X, Y, or C View, then she will be like, Yeah, Dave, yeah, and then I'll go like ballistic bananas.
+
+[23:17] You know what I mean? But uh anyway, so we're I would I would definitely watch or listen to that show and volunteer to be that third person. Nice. All right. Well, remember, we need a good mix.
+
+[23:26] Always need to be people that we disagree with uh you know on the air. Anyway, so uh keep an eye out for it. We're working on it. All right. Thank thanks for the great shows, Dave.
+
+[23:34] All right, thank you. All right. So uh Darren wrote in, and I can't remember, Dave, whether we answered any of his questions. Tell me if there's a caller, otherwise I'm just gonna keep doing questions. There is another caller, yeah.
+
+[23:43] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, how are you? Doing all right? I listen to that show as well. Good, thanks.
+
+[23:49] Um hey, I want to ask you, I've been using um just kind of like the crappy Britta filter for a while now. Um mostly uh trying to get like chlorine out of the water for um homebrewing. Um and I want to try and like look into installing something in the sink. And I'm just kind of curious if you have any recommendations or like what should I be looking for in a system and like how crazy do I need to get with it kind of thing. Good question.
+
+[24:13] Apartment or house. Uh apartment. Okay, you you do you own it or you don't own it? Do not own it. Okay.
+
+[24:20] Do you okay? You're what I'm gonna tell you to do is not gonna damage no one's gonna know. Let me ask you this. When you look under your sink, do you see the probably half-inch copper pipe coming out, or is the what's called an angle stop, which is the the thing that it that shuts the water supply, the coal water supply off to your sink. Is it in in the wall directly, or can you see the half-inch copper?
+
+[24:44] No, you can see it. Oh, ha. Okay. Do you know how to use a torch? Uh no.
+
+[24:44] Okay. You might need to hire a plumber or just find anyone who knows how to use a torch. The only danger involved here is that you are uh that you could burn your apartment down. It's if you know how to use a torch and you get the shielding, it's like super easy. Here's what most people are gonna do.
+
+[25:08] They're gonna go to the the big their local big box store, like a Lowe's or a home depot, and you're gonna buy uh like a the GE is the brand I use, water filter, and they come, they're they're basically plastic um canisters that uh screw together and they have an O-ring, and inside of it is a kind of a uh you know a um a circular, a cylindrical filter, and you only need the one that does odor, which is the lowest the the assuming where where do you live? Sorry? What's what city are you in? Uh New York. Okay, your water tastes great other than the chlorine.
+
+[25:43] You don't need the filter out, probably lead, crypto, whatever they're filtering out. You need just a like chlorine odor filter. And the reason you don't want to get a what they would call higher quality filter is you want the least restrictive filter that does what you need, because um you're gonna your flow is gonna go lower and lower and lower over time. And if you're gonna be doing anything with it, you want as high a flow as possible. But the classic mistake that everybody makes, and I'm looking at you, whoever was the handyman at Sombar when we tried to install our filter the first time at Booker Index, um, what they tend to do is just unscrew the um the connector between the angle stop that I was telling you about and the coal water supply, and they screw a T on.
+
+[26:26] The problem is is that your angle stop is extremely restrictive compared to the half inch pipe. And so if someone tries to use filtered water, uh you you you want as much because the filter drops the pressure so much, you want as much input pressure and if and cross section area into that filter as possible. So what long story, you're gonna want someone to put a copper T into your line before the angle stop, right? Uh install a full port. I'm I'm gonna say this one more time.
+
+[26:58] A full port. Actually, you can get uh one of these things with its own stop rod, but install a full port uh ball valve that's the same diameter as your thing. So you can shut the system off if you need and tee it into a G, you know, one of those GE. You don't need a whole house, but the whole house filters last a lot longer, so you get the whole house one because I think what, Don, it's an extra like 15 bucks or something like that, maybe. You'll save so much more money on the filters.
+
+[27:24] Yeah, and and time and hassle, and then uh you just run it out of that to like a another tap that you can put into your sink. And if you don't want to put it into sink, you don't need to, you can just have a tap underneath. Uh just make sure you can shut it off because things like you don't want to pressurize something crappy like a like a picnic tap, as they're called, because what'll uh if you're a beer person, you know what I'm talking about. Because uh they could fail at any minute, and when you have something connected to city water that could fail at any minute, you have failed. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:53] So uh I would get uh an actual like line that you can turn off and on. But that's de a hundred percent the way to go. And in fact, if you get a good enough filter, you can just have that be the cold water supply for your um for your sink, and you're gonna go through filters a lot longer, but all your water will taste good out of the coal out of the cold water tap. You the one thing like I gotta say, I would not, if I were you, attempt to run uh a filter like off of the normal angle stop that is there. It's just gonna be a heartache for you.
+
+[28:22] You can do it, it'll last for a couple months, and your water through that thing was gonna be slow, slow, slow, slow, slow, but then it's like a $50 problem. If you have to hire a plumber, now it's $200 more dollars, right? So now you're a $250 problem, unless you have a buddy who can come just sweat the stuff together, because we're really honestly talking about $15, $20 worth of copper here, maybe. Yeah. Um, and you know, a lifetime.
+
+[28:45] I've done it in every single apartment I've been in for the past 20 years. You know what I mean? Because that's just like I can't live with that. I can't live with chlorine taste in my in my water, especially in my seltzer, and uh yeah. Right.
+
+[29:00] Awesome. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Oh, one more thing. You can get a uh a clear one and you can get the not clear one, and when you're buying the GE water filters, here's the main problem the GE water filters have that they're made out of plastic.
+
+[29:13] So if you cross-thread anything, they become a nightmare and they they leak later. And so you want to make sure when you're putting the fittings into the water filters, not to cross-thread anything and to be relatively gentle with the plastic so that it doesn't uh crack, and you're gonna need to be able to get the thing off. So make sure that you have good access to it to get to remove the bottom uh to get it off because that that becomes uh uh a hassle. And please do follow their instructions to bleed all the air out of it before you're using it or or you know, comedy ensues. All right.
+
+[29:45] Thanks a lot. No problem. I got a topic for you for when you get your new show with Nastasha. You gotta get uh someone to come in and talk about uh chemtrails and how you're gonna filter out chemtrails in your water. What's a chemtrail?
+
+[29:54] You know the the airplane, like uh the condensation? Oh, the code. People who think that that's the government, like you know, spraying chemicals. It's not. Okay.
+
+[30:04] Uh zing. All right. So should we go to a break and then come back with some uh questions? Uh yeah, let's do that. All right, cool.
+
+[30:11] Right back. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more.
+
+[30:38] Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready.
+
+[31:07] You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit ChefSteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back. So during the break, Don and I tried uh the fried oysters that we told you about. And the crunchy olives made by the Cielo Corporation.
+
+[31:35] And uh, here's my feedback. They f like Don hated the fried oysters. I didn't hate it. I just didn't think it was good. Well, so here's what I uh wait.
+
+[31:45] You grew up in do they have crispy clam strips in LA? Not really. Okay. So if you grew up on the East Coast, you grew up with crispy clam strips. You know who invented the crispy clam strip for hojos?
+
+[31:54] No idea. Jacques Papin. Swear to God. Jacques Papin went from being Charles de Gaulle's chazniker, being his personal chef, uh, took a job being the head chef of, as Jacques Papin calls it, Lojo, hojo's. And one of his things, it's it is claimed, is the the Howard Johnson's crispy clams strip.
+
+[32:16] That's crazy. Yeah. Dave, you like some crispy clam strips, am I right? Absolutely. East Coast.
+
+[32:20] Yeah. So anyway, so these fried oysters taste like imagine if you had crispy clams strips, you bought them in the East Coast, you flew to uh Phoenix, let's say that's where you lived, and you left them out on a counter in 120 degree heat and no humidity for like a day, and then you looked at them and you said, I'm gonna try that. That's what it tastes like. No bueno. Why do you want that?
+
+[32:45] You want fresh. Well, you say it's an accurate description? Yeah. Well, they're kind of growing on me. I remember this let's rewind a little bit.
+
+[32:54] I'm the guy that when I worked at Domino's Pizza in college, uh, as a driver, ate a pound of raw bacon because I was bored. And when they said why do you do that? I said, I thought it was cooked. I just thought it was bad quality. So that's me.
+
+[33:10] Yeah. Anyway, uh, and what do you think about the crunchy olives? Um, they were crunchy. The inside was kind of mushy. That was interesting.
+
+[33:18] It's well, it's a dried olive, so I don't know. One kind of raisin-y texture. Yeah. All right. I here we have a uh here we have another caller.
+
+[33:24] Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. I just got some uh leak-proof reusable storage bags, and uh it says 100% P-E-V-A, and it says they're B T A free. I was just wondering uh the usability for Su V. P uh so it's not P-E-T-E.
+
+[33:42] What's P-E-T-O like P E T A. Yeah. P E V A. Yeah. Googling with uh a bunch of stuff about power curtains.
+
+[33:51] P-E-V-A. I don't know if I know that that um I don't know. Hey, Don, could Google up that uh resin real quick. But um this is designed for food, right? Yeah, food storage.
+
+[34:05] I just don't know if you know it's polyethylene vinyl acid in a water bath. Yeah. I'm sure I've looked this up before, but I just don't know much about I don't know anything about that that resin off the top of my head. I've it like uh for some reason it's like out of my head. I have no P V DE.
+
+[34:23] Anyway, here here's here's my general theory on on uh on these things on plastics. In general, there are certain plastics that um when they degrade might make things that are I mean what most people worry about are plastic plasticizers and endocrine disruptors, so things like phthalates, things like uh BPA, which is why, you know, in general, a lot of people in cooking applications try to avoid PVC. Um and some people avoid um polycarbonate that's gonna go through the dishwasher because when it goes through dishwasher and when it's damaged, apparently you can get um uh BPA from it because that's you know one of the monomers I believe that polycarbonate's made out of. Although again, you're you're it's been what happens is every couple of years, uh someone asks me and I have to re-up my knowledge on it, and that's when I know more about it. So um two classes of things, right?
+
+[35:16] Uh and so the plasticizers are in things uh the the reason you want to go with PVC, it's the plasticizers that people are usually worried about. So when you're using PVC for food applications, I usually buy what's called Tigon, which is a very high purity, you know, apparently plastic you know, supposed to be plasticizer uh leach-free product. Um in general, you want to stay, you know, with home stuff with things that are like known to be incredibly neutral, like um polyethylene. The problem, and that's why you know polyethylene wrap is so good, but polyethylene is very bad at high temperatures. It loses its uh structural integrity.
+
+[35:53] So if this thing is meant for food storage, it could be that so for instance, a lot of the the uh Ziploc uh food storage bags versus their freezer bags, it's a thickness issue. So you it's more of a an oxygen permeability issue. And one of the reasons that the that those things aren't cooking bags is because they don't have another layer of something that's tougher, like a nylon that can withstand like uh a lot uh you know higher temperature. Uh and so a lot of times when someone says storage, it's because they know that the service temperature of the of the uh plastic is lower than with the average cooking temperature because the no one is anticipating um no one's anticipating you know you low temperature cooking. There's not anticipating it.
+
+[36:38] And that was the case with Ziploc bags. And so the Ziploc bag they would say you couldn't cook in it because they assumed you're gonna do boiling bag in it, and that really is kind of above the usable service temperature of a Ziploc bag. And but I got the guys at Johnson to, you know, say that you know low temperature was okay. What do you find on the line, Don? Very little information.
+
+[36:56] It's a lot of uh housewives talking about whether it's safe for their kids in lunchboxes. But it as the caller says, it's also a lot of uh, you know, uh shower curtain stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so I tend not to I I don't the answer is I don't know. I know that there's someone right now making specifically, because I saw it on like Jewel like got tweeted out to me or something like that, or somebody tweeted out someone's making some reusable, I don't know if they're silicone.
+
+[37:20] Let me ask you this though. Uh isn't reusing the bag just like super gross. I mean, yeah, but I just hate throwing away plastic bags for every cook. I just feel like I'm you know, like a dirty person. Uh no, I'm with you, but like, in other words, like, what is your dishwasher look like and or your sink?
+
+[37:39] Like, see, so like um, if you've ever like pastry bags, right? So pastry bags are disgusting to wash out. Everyone hates washing out pastry bags. And you know, that's why you have those conical things to to dry pastry bags, and that's why, you know, the truth is is we all put like we all put stuff we we, you know, like at FCI, we're all using disposable plastic cooking bags, I mean uh pastry bags, even if you're only using it as a liner because nobody wants to wash out those cloth bags. Everybody hates doing it.
+
+[38:12] Um so like my and you know, my thing, my thing is I'm just worried that you know, people are going to be like, oh, this is such a hassle, and then they're just not gonna want to cook that way because they know when they're done, you know, when they're pulling service, now you have to take the bag and you have all the juices and stuff. Now you gotta upturn that bag in your sink, let it drain and wash it right away so it doesn't get all stank duty, and then you gotta like turn it inside out and let it uh air out in a place that's not stacked up or it's gonna get moldy. So I'd be interested in hearing as you use it over time, kind of how that kind of works out because I would like to have a non-throwing away method um you know to do things. You're either the kind of parent that's gonna use disposable diapers or cloth diapers. And if you're gonna use cloth diapers, you just gotta commit to it.
+
+[38:58] And it's well, the cloth diaper thing. Now again, I haven't researched this in a long time, but like you know, a lot of people have debunked the cloth diaper because it you know some people have argued, I don't know whether it's true or false or where it comes down, that it's just as bad to run the washing machines as much uh as it is to just get the disposable diaper. Right. But that that could be dependent on where you live, right? Like water is not in short supply here, whereas in California, if you're running your washing machine all the time for disposable diap, I mean for uh cloth diapers, could be problematic.
+
+[39:29] Right. Yeah. So who knows? The answer is too much. But I'm very interested to hear people's feedback, especially as I'm writing this book.
+
+[39:35] I I I should be researching this topic more. I've been spending more time on things like the Crown Roaster Pork recipe that I'm working on. The last one I did was slightly overcooked. Slightly overcooked. Um poor moisture management.
+
+[39:49] Terrible well, good moisture management on the crust, but not in the interior. Right. So again, again, overall poor moisture management. I was kind of sad it was so close to being right, but a crown roast is very difficult to get exactly right because if you overcook it a little bit, it's rotten, especially with like you know, like modern pork. I was so close to it being right though.
+
+[40:06] That's why gotta get that heritage pork. Gotta get the good stuff. Good stuff kids go for. All right. Anyway, please let me know what happens.
+
+[40:13] Uh all right. So, Dave, could should I get some uh email questions here? Yeah, yeah, bang one out real quick. So um this one, I think we answered some of these, Darren wrote in. He asked what happened to Indy Jesus.
+
+[40:27] I don't know. And Jack Inslee, if if we can uh send uh an email to Jack Insley and a ask him to maybe he can call in you know next week with the the story of Indy Jesus and what happened to Stasia. Saw him on the street once, I think. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley.
+
+[40:41] Yeah, that that Jack Insley Jackie Molecules. Uh yeah, yeah. Um then my girlfriend has celiac disease, uh, and now I love experimenting. I found that it doesn't mean much to replicate glutinous food. Uh bringing something new to the table is far more exciting and meaningful.
+
+[40:57] Do you have uh frameworks or methods that you guys like to use when working in the lab develop well, I don't have a lab right now, but yeah, at home or whatever. Uh developing new recipes. I'm talking inspirational, uh variational, creative tweaking, etc. So in general, what I like to do is I like to look at recipes that naturally don't have whatever X, Y, or Z thing is that you know you don't want to work with and then work from there. So like I would look at like the panoply of naturally gluten-free uh food.
+
+[41:28] So inherently you're like, okay, I'm gonna go to like I'm gonna look at at um cultures that have a corn-based staple and I'm gonna look at cultures that have a rice-based staple. And if you do that, there's like a zillion like a bazillion things. Like, you know, I've spent uh a bunch of time over the last year working on um idleys, and idleys are gluten-free. Uh, and so and the interesting thing about it is that they develop there are different textures, first of all. There are different kinds of textures you can develop, but there are also I know you said you didn't want to do this, but there there are adjuncts that are added to things to make them act uh, you know, hydrocolloids typically, you know, uh to make up for the fact that you don't have things like gluten, like witness masa, you know, which is you know, God's you know, one of the proofs of God is masa.
+
+[42:18] It's amazing. Uh nixalization in general, or like I say, Italy's uh uh in in in India. But then um, you know, I don't know, what do you think, Don? I mean I mean, just the way of approaching it, you have two basic ways, right? Unless you're some genius that can create things in a vacuum, you're either gonna take something that already exists that has gluten and try to make it non-gluten, or you're gonna find something that already doesn't have gluten and try to turn that into something that is similar to something that has gluten.
+
+[42:43] Right. I mean, like the you know, the issue obviously, and you deal with this every day if you know if you have celiac is like the secret gluten, like the gluten that's you know, the secret gluten. There's like uh, you know, why would you think that uh Sichuan broad bean paste has gluten in it? But guess what it does? You know what I mean?
+
+[42:58] Like you know, right? I mean that's like that's the kind of thing you have to kind of look out for. But uh I think any I it's gonna sound bad. I love stealing ideas from other cultures because they've spent, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years trying to figure out X, Y, and Z with whatever they have, right? So some place that didn't have a lot of glutinous uh uh you know products with gluten in it, or doesn't have a barley-based or a wheat-based uh culture, I mean they're gonna know how to make good stuff with their stuff.
+
+[43:32] Right. A lot of the problem that I'm finding though is like with the traditional Asian ingredients, especially the fermented stuff, traditionally it shouldn't have gluten, but as a modern manufacturing process, they add gluten. They add they add wheat because it's cheap. So usually if you live in a big enough city with an ethnic population, there's probably some grandmother that is making like miso or like you know, Korean like cochujang like red pepper paste, and not selling it in stores, but has like some local network. Try to tap into that because then you can get some stuff that's homemade, you know, even soy sauce that's homemade that doesn't have gluten.
+
+[43:59] Right. But I think you know I think he's also just more worried about like on the creative so in other words, there's two problems. There's ingredient sourcing, that's like the secret gluten and things, but then there is just kind of thinking around having uh, you know, gluten. And I think if you try to put yourself in the mindset of cultures that don't have it, you know, in general, then it becomes very easy because you know, you're using a different palette, you're using um I'll give you anything, it give you but doesn't mean you have to mimic the flavors, but you take like the structure. Like Don and I were talking, like I have been fascinated for years.
+
+[44:36] I have like you know, for a home, probably the largest set I've ever seen of Tulsotes. I have like ten of them. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm in my house, uh, of varying sizes.
+
+[44:47] At Tulso's the the hot how do you pronounce it in real life? Tulso. All right, uh the Korean stone bowls that are used for for Bibbab. Yeah, the stone bowl one. Yeah.
+
+[44:57] Yeah. What's the other word gobdole mean? The gobdle bibimbob when they put it in the tulsote. Or is that just so a word that's in my head for now? Anyway.
+
+[45:05] So anyway, so the stone bowls, like I find are amazing, but I just steal them and like here's the b so h here's a thief's mind, right? You go, you have the bibimbop in the toll soot, right? And you're like, oh, crispy rice, egg, egg cooks, when you stir crispy rice, you need some fun kind of sauce because otherwise the rice is dry, oil, hot bowl, rice, egg, right? Yeah. Herb on top, maybe.
+
+[45:32] That's what I do. Anyway, point is that like that's it. Like, that's the framework. That's the symphony, that's the sonata, that is the structure. And then I add whatever I want to it now, as long as, you know, like that's the basic structure.
+
+[45:44] So that's how good thievery works. So like uh uh with idlys, I'm like, okay, it's uh idley rice, um uh fenigreek, you know, uh, you know, whatever you're gonna put in in it for normally, you you uh soak it, uh, you know, let lentil, dull lentil, you soak it, you grind it in a wet grinder, bought one for this purpose. Right now you have the basic thing, awesome. And you can, you know, any number of sauces, you know, eating from breakfast. I've you know, and they're like, I can make this into a dinner thing.
+
+[46:16] Hell, I can stuff it. So I did I talk about this on air? I do chip, I stuff chili and other things into the idly as though it was a steamed bun, but it's still an idly. That's good thievery. Yeah.
+
+[46:26] Because you're stealing, you're taking somebody else's culture, but you're not tied to it because it's not your culture. So you can just take the structure of it and use it for other things. It's bad if you're being disrespectful. Right. Don't be disrespectful.
+
+[46:41] Don't be disrespectful. But I think uh there's nothing I think inherently wrong with like looking at other kind of constructs and struct what's wrong is saying that you're doing an authentic X, Y, or Z. Right. Or trying to pretend that, you know, that you know, you're somehow the uh the the preacher of somebody else's culture, you know, you know, here in the US. That's where it goes all haywire.
+
+[47:03] Right. But if you're just like, hey, I find that this technique or this structure interesting, I mean, how can anyone get mad at that? Yeah, just be a fan of it. Yeah, or like, but they're or like don't even try your s don't even say you're trying to do that. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:16] Like, don't even say that what you're doing is related to what they're doing, other than this is where I stole this idea. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, a tribute. Always.
+
+[47:24] Always. Always. Hey Dave. So I got one more caller, but before that, I I got a reply from Jack Insley. He says, Tell Dave I miss him so much.
+
+[47:32] And last saw Indy Jesus when he was at a cafe in Williamsburg. I will dig deeper into this. We will get some Indy Jesus information, and we also miss the Jackie Molecules. Not that you're not great, Dave, but everybody misses Jackie Mollech. Understood.
+
+[47:44] Yeah. Wait, so we have a caller? We do. All right, caller, you're on the air. Uh hello.
+
+[47:51] Hey. Hey, so uh a couple long time listeners here. We got a quick question for you. Hopefully has a quick answer. Uh do you have any method for quickly peeling uh walnuts?
+
+[48:04] Ooh, you know, my grandpa used to be able to break a single walnut in his hand. A single walnut. That's very hard. I'm just gonna mention that offhand. I can break, I can crack walnuts, two walnuts in my hand.
+
+[48:17] Now, when you say uh, but not one. Uh, are you saying that but he was also a jerk, so I'd rather have had him been not so much of a jerk and not be able to crack walnuts. Here's my question for you. When you say peel, do you mean get the shell off, or do you mean to get the skin off of it? I get the skin, get the skin off of it.
+
+[48:33] I don't have a good technique for it. But uh, Dave, anyone we should put that out to the you know what I this is an interesting problem. Do you have uh are you staring at a giant 50-pound sack of walnuts right now, and that's why you're telling me about this? Uh no, actually, it's just like a uh a project that came up like a week ago that we uh me and a colleague co-worker of mine, we do about like um about 200 grams a day. Uh, and it's just like it's so much to do in one day that we actually end up taking them home.
+
+[49:03] And like uh my girlfriend and I have this like new thing that we do. It's called uh Net Netflix and Nuts, where we just like sit in bed all day and watch Netflix and peel a walnut. It sounds like a good idea. Family show. Family show.
+
+[49:15] No, oh, oh Don, you had to take it there. Walnuts. We all know the joke at the beginning of uh of uh of the the Snoop Dogg song with the with the walnuts and the we all know so we're not gonna get into that. That was a Snoop Dogg song, right? Anyway, the uh this is an interesting problem.
+
+[49:32] I mean, obviously I know how to do it for almonds and um for whole nuts. You know what? I'm gonna ask so McGee, Harold McGee, you know, has access to these fantastic walnuts where there's no tannins in the in this stuff, and so you don't need to get you're talking about getting the membrane off from the shell, or you're talking about getting the tannic skin off. Uh the tannic skin. Yeah.
+
+[49:55] Uh I'm gonna he has a an in with the walnut board. So I'm gonna see if I can get in touch with McGee. I think he's back in the U.S., he was in Japan recently. I'm gonna see if he can get in touch maybe with the walnut board and see whether or not the walnut board has any uh and I'm gonna see someone today whose grandpa is a walnut farmer. Uh and I will also ask him like what's what's going on.
+
+[50:20] Is there a good way to do this? So like you can buy the extremely expensive low tannin varieties, but they're not readily available. Um and they're from California. Uh but I I'll look into it. This is an interesting problem.
+
+[50:31] I don't have any answer for you right now, though. Chad was got another. All right, we'll we'll we'll get it going. Just keep reminding me if if you don't hear about it, remind me because I'm gonna be talking to everyone I know that's got some nut and some some nut knowledge. I'm gonna be pestering them when I when I hear them.
+
+[50:48] That's that by the way, for those of you that don't, that's how I operate in the real life. So like I'll like when I see someone, I'll be like, hey, you have any ideas on how to get this? That's how I work, right, Don? How to boss that nut. Oh, geez.
+
+[51:00] No, you want to keep the nut whole. Keep it whole. Family show. These nuts? Uh well, that you know we love the these nuts.
+
+[51:07] All right, so we still didn't get to so Dave, I know you're gonna make me uh get off the air here. Here's my question to you. Yes, you do have to read that thing before we go. That was not it, but okay. But uh Nastasia's gonna get real mad because she was so psyched that she was gonna miss the show where I was gonna actually answer all the questions.
+
+[51:22] We've answered like two of the many questions that have backed up. Right. Should can we just schedule like an extra, like we either gonna have to do a no-caller show or we're gonna have to schedule an extra, like a where we actually finish these things off, or Nastasia's gonna be so mad at me. Yeah. We don't want that.
+
+[51:39] Um yeah, it's up to you. I don't know, however, you want to do it. I don't know. Cooking is people, let me know. Let me know what you think about the new show.
+
+[51:44] Uh thanks to uh Don for coming in and on the way out, I'm gonna read uh this modernist pantry rollout. You want to do it that way? Sounds good. I got one question and one I want to leave with your your listeners. All right.
+
+[51:55] So I know you don't have an answer to this, or you have opinions, but I have this question. What is a churro? So okay so like is a churro the actual like the batter, or is it the shape? It is well, in other words, if you were to put if you were to put meat through a churro press, it would not be a churro. Right.
+
+[52:17] If you were to pour batter into oil and not through a churro press, it would be a beignet or a donut. But it's specific kind of batter. It's not your regular beignet batter or your, you know, it's just it's like this like hot batter. I have to look up the churro recipe. Right.
+
+[52:35] First of all, let me ask you a question. Are you a fan of uh Italian uh Christmas pastries? Not particularly. Oh, yeah. Yeah?
+
+[52:45] Yeah. Well, so you know how they have like all kinds of Italian has all kind of like cold fried things. Yeah. Like Struvoli and all that stuff. Like, yeah, so like, but they don't want to eat it fresh.
+
+[52:58] That's the thing. They don't want to eat it when I think that they should want to eat it, which is funny. So churros, I like a hot churro, but on the subway, they're all cold churros. Oh, that's a terrible churros, though. But they sell like churros.
+
+[53:12] That's because that's like New Yorkers who've never had a real churro. Uh, the guy selling it is not like, you know, I mean, the guy selling it presumably knows what a churro tastes like. Yeah, but the guy would rather have a real churro set up and be making them fresh if he could. It's just that he's in a New York City subway. See, I don't like this.
+
+[53:30] Here's my point. It's like if you people, if you are in a situation where you cannot make X product the way you want to make it, then do not make X product, make Y product or Z product. So you do not believe that this person thinks that the churro that he or she is selling is a valid churro. You think that it's always you think this person gets up at zero in the morning, loads up the big board of churros with all that plastic wrap over it and the cart, wheels it onto whatever subway line, like hauls their butt out there and sells it knowing that they're selling crap. Knowing that they're selling to people who won't know the difference and that they have to make this compromise because that's the way they're gonna make a living.
+
+[54:16] But you could sell anything. You don't need to sell churros. You could sell a different product that's not garbage. Cookies, for instance. You could, but that's what they sell.
+
+[54:25] I I'm not this person, I don't know. But the question is, do you like a cold donut? You like a cold donut? Yeah, a cold donut's okay. By the way, uh Wiley's opening his uh his place.
+
+[54:35] Uh dude don't do his own. Yeah, I didn't get to go to the friends and family, and neither did you because we were uh working edible schoolyards last night. But that's when friends and family. Otherwise, we would have been there eating his donuts. I heard they were delicious.
+
+[54:45] The rest of my family enjoyed them. Anyway, so look out for Wiley's donuts opening up. But to me, the hallmark of a good donut is a donut that is good cold. Not a churro, huh? Churro has to be hot.
+
+[54:57] All right. All right. Space space racist. So could you could you put churro batter into a waffle iron and then when it comes out, like put the cinnamon and sugar on it? No.
+
+[55:07] Is that a churro? No. Could you put a churro in a tandoor, John Daragon style? No. No.
+
+[55:12] No. John Daragon wants a tandoor everything. No. Yes, but you still need a fryer. You could fry the churro and then maybe reheat it in a tandoor.
+
+[55:20] How about that? Or you know. You can't reheat it in a waffle iron because that would be. Listen, I can't go too much into the technology of waffles because then I'll be divulging things that Don and I are working on. Let me just put it that way.
+
+[55:32] I cannot go too deep into waffle technology at this point. Give us like three, four months, and I can go into waffle technology. But the origin of the churro, what is it? I will have to do more research. I have to do more research, and we'll leave that with the cooking issues listener.
+
+[55:46] And here, thank you for coming. Here is our. I was supposed to read this earlier, but here it is. Ready? Modernist Pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you.
+
+[55:55] Janie Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiasts, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com to today discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[56:33] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with all that is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. Cooking issues.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[57:23] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com slash J O U L E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every week from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 at Roberta's Pizza We and Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez, who's back from her birthday/slash vacation in Rome, Italy.
+
+[0:59] How was it? Good. I gotta go back next week. Next week? To Rome.
+
+[1:03] To Milan. Why? Separate reason. For business? Yeah.
+
+[1:07] Business? Milano? Just for two days. Is uh okay. So do you already have the itinerary of who you're dealing with?
+
+[1:12] No. Okay, my theory, I've told you this, is that like, is that three out of four men in Milan's name is Luca. Oh. Oh, yeah, no. I'm not dealing with you.
+
+[1:23] Not dealing with no Lucas. I don't have an it. Yeah, no. No, all right. And we got uh Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:28] How are you doing, Dave? Good. I love Milanos. Yeah, uh, those cookies. Here's my theory on Milano's, right?
+
+[1:34] Milano's, the original Milano is like a gift from God. The mint Milano, not as much. And then they have all these other flavors of the city. What? How do you do that?
+
+[1:43] How do you break a Milano apart? No, I take I like scrape the cookie off both sides. That is straight up gross. What are you? Like a like a free.
+
+[1:51] Not in front of anybody. It must be really difficult. It is. It's like a bunny rabbit. She's sitting there like gnawing on the speaking of a or I try to like, you know.
+
+[1:58] Yeah, I say well, she's doing the little uh the teeth bite thing. She's uh trying to strip it to chocolate covered crumbs, I guess. Yeah, really good. Nice. All right.
+
+[2:07] So uh speaking of how was your airline flight? Been a banner week in airline travel. I was fine. Yeah, did you see all the awesome airline stuff that happened this week? No, I heard something on the radio this morning.
+
+[2:17] Well, recently there was a huge fist fight that broke out on a on a plane on an expensive probably A flight back from Tokyo to LA, like a fist fight, like before they took off. Of course it was two American dudes. Like fight like one guy ripped the other guy's Hawaiian shirt, like basically half off of his body. And like people were like, What? What?
+
+[2:35] He tried to choke out a flight attendant. There was a guy we heard about that, remember? Well a friend. A friend of a oh, wait, who was it? Not really a friend, but like a friend of a friend.
+
+[2:46] But then my favorite story that more relates to cooking issues is have you heard of Simon the Bunny? This happened, I think, during the last week. So United Airlines, you know, in battled airline than it is. This story took me so by surprise. Killed.
+
+[3:00] All right. Killed, and then would not return the body of Simon the Giant Bunny. Now. You're like, what? Like when this new story came up, this one flew under the radar, what?
+
+[3:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so Simon the Giant Bunny was now is dead, but was already over three feet long. Okay. Like three and a half foot long rabbit. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:23] Nastasi's making the three and a half foot rabbit arms. Huge. Was still growing and was slated to be the world's record largest bunny. Like they calculated they they the guess was it was gonna come in at over four, maybe four and a half feet, to be the world's largest rabbits. Bred by this lunatic woman, ex Playboy model.
+
+[3:42] And this story just gets crazier and crazier. Ex Playboy model with every detail. Yeah, in England, right? Takes Simon the Giant bunny, sells it to some extremely rich rabbit fancier here in the United States, right? Gets on an airplane, flies all the way from London Heathrow to Chicago O'Hare Airport.
+
+[4:02] Here's where it gets weird. O'Hare. Oh, boom! I didn't even get that, Nastasia. You're on fire.
+
+[4:08] Wow. On fire, Nastasia. Wow. So that's a daily newser. Yeah, right there.
+
+[4:13] O'Hare, boom. So makes it all the way over there, right? And then all of a sudden, they're like, no rabbit. And then she's like, where's Simon? They're like, uh it's dead.
+
+[4:25] And they're like, what? What the hell happened? It died on the plane. What? It had just gotten a veterinary exam like three hours before it had flown because it's an expensive giant bunny.
+
+[4:35] They want to make sure this sucker could fly. You can't put a price tag on that. You can't. Well, apparently somebody did. Some rich buyer bought it.
+
+[4:40] Anyway, but here's the thing. So turns out, uh they don't return the body. They don't return the body. Oh no, no, I mean, no, no, no, no, it doesn't get a seat. It should just get a seat, just buckle in.
+
+[4:51] Doesn't, uh they don't give back the body, they're like, uh, we we cremated it. Oh my god. Yeah, it's don't tell us. So finally, the story comes out. It made it to Chicago Hair Alive, gets off, and some knucklehead puts the crate in a freezer and just kills it.
+
+[5:07] Just freezes this freaking giant rabbit to death. Simon the bunny just freezes him to death. Oh my god. How the heck does that happen? You know what I mean?
+
+[5:17] How does that happen? Like he's like, hey, hey, for Christ's sakes, Tommy, is that box moving? Tommy, Tommy, is that box moving? Put it in the freezer. Put it in the freezer.
+
+[5:27] Slow it down. And you know what I mean? The thing is, it's like, what the heck happened? They didn't return the body. If it was me, here's what I think.
+
+[5:33] I think that Tommy and the other guy whose name, I don't know, I'm making it all up. Yeah, Chuck. Yeah. Chuck. Yeah.
+
+[5:40] So Chuck and Tommy, I think they they ate this freaking giant rabbit because they're thinking, when am I gonna get a chance? They're both fans of rabbit. They like rabbit to eat. And they're like, when am I gonna get such a giant freaking rabbit? I'm kind of curious what it tasted like.
+
+[5:54] But I think that like cremate is some sort of like, yeah, some sort of uh what's the word I'm looking for? Euphemism for eating it. What do you think, Stas? Yep. Tommy.
+
+[6:03] Put it in the freezer. Somebody ate that thing. Yeah, somebody ate that. I mean, I have to be honest, I'm kind of curious. You know, a three-foot rabbit can't move that much, right?
+
+[6:11] It's gotta be pretty tender. I mean, how much there are pictures on the web of this lady with her other giant rabbits. So sucks to be her giant rabbit self. Oh, speaking of uh uh cooking and eating things that I enjoy very much. This week I had my first of the year, even though I think it's late in the season, Shad.
+
+[6:31] You ever have the Shad to ever get you Shad? Not Shad Row. Everyone here is like, oh Shad Row, Shad Row. I like Shad Row. Love the Shad.
+
+[6:37] Yeah, Shad, Shad the Fish. Yeah. Oh is Freaking, it's my f there's a whole festival devoted to it in Philly. Really? Yeah, Shad Fest.
+
+[6:44] I and you do go eat the it's a it we've talked about this every year. We talk about it. It's a it's a almost lost art boning out shad. It's got an extra set of Y bones that go into the meat, and so it takes like a like a fish boning ninja who can like do it and they bone it out and then they reassemble the fillet so it looks whole, but if you lift it up, it falls apart like a piece of lace work. You know what I'm talking about, Dave?
+
+[7:06] Yeah. Anyway, and you like the meat too, right? It's like a giant herring, it's so delicious. Oh, I love it, yeah. And well, I bought uh I bought a boatload of I bought a boatload of this stuff the in Connecticut in in Haddam where I buy shad there's like one lady left who knows how to bone these things and so like you know once she's gone like the shad's gone as far as I'm concerned no one wants to eat the bones you know what I mean anyways so uh where was I going with this so cooked uh eight tons of uh shad on the on the cowboy grill but here's the problem Stas I went to you know I'm doing it I do it my super high heat multi multi-step tandoor style like I always do now which I have something that you'll enjoy later that I can't say on the air it's not safe for not safe for uh public consumption but uh Family show family show what so this is this is my review of the pit mit grill uh glove watch the hell out right so like I've been using this grill mit which I bought so I could work on the tandoor and grill and so I had my uh all the shad I had it in those you know those like uh they're almost like clamshell grill holders that are meant so you can just like put a bunch of stuff so it doesn't you don't have to put a spatula underneath it because that's the only way to move fish off and on multiple times because you don't want it to break apart so I have it like in the in the thing and I put it uh off on off on but like damned if that glove didn't have a giant like it just like burned through on the side went right into my thumb was like wow I also got the freeze dryer working I got the freeze dryer working freeze dried a lot yeah freeze dried a lot oh here's another thing you're gonna like this one Nastasia about shad so shad's an oily fish right like herring right and uh they can hear you talking so uh Nastasia whispering on the air people can still hear her anyway the um so I had the uh you know bluefish, right?
+
+[8:48] You like blue fish? Dave, are you a bluefish fan as well? Yeah, sure. Yeah. So when I was a kid, right, in the 80s, no one ate bluefish.
+
+[8:55] You just didn't eat bluefish, right? It was everyone liked to fish for bluefish because bluefish is a real, you know, it's a tough fight. It goes close to the shore, so it's good. It's also good fish from both, so it's a real tough fight. Sharp teeth, mean suckers.
+
+[9:09] Like if a bluefish run is going up the up the shore and like you wade out into it, it'll take like a hunk out of your out of your ankle. You know what I mean? Like there's they're they're but they're delicious. So everyone fished for them forever, but no one ate them. And so this is the cooking tip that I've never actually tested, but to this day, like like 30 years later, I still do.
+
+[9:27] When I was like 12 or 13, we were in Cape Cod, and this guy was like, Hey, you want some free you want some free fish? And they were like, What? So he's like, he caught all these bluefish, and he basically filled the trunk of our car with bluefish. He's like, I'm gonna tell you a secret. He's like, put mayonnaise on it before you grill it.
+
+[9:45] And then this is what he said these words which ring in my ears 30 something years later. Grease gets out grease. And that's all he says. Wow. And so, like whenever I grill like an oily fish, I coat the sucker with mayonnaise, salt pepper mayonnaise.
+
+[9:59] It's just like I I don't even know how to do it otherwise. It's like it's like when you're a kid and someone says to you, kid, bluefish has to be real fresh or it smells bad. So that works. Grease gets out grease. I don't know.
+
+[10:11] Who knows? I mean, my I like my bluefish the way I cook it. You know what I mean? I don't know. That would be the last thing I would reach for when cooking fish.
+
+[10:18] Mayonnaise? Yeah, I hate I kind of hate mayo. What the what? You're from what? You're from the snack food like capital of the of the east?
+
+[10:27] You're from Philadelphia? Yeah, so what? I mean, you have to like mayonnaise if you're from Philadelphia, don't you? I don't think so. I think Mayo is revolting.
+
+[10:35] You know what? You want you you're getting ready to you're gonna you might bring it on, chat room. You might jump in here and punch me in the in the head, but I put mayonnaise on cheeseburgers. I mean, not cheeseburgers and cheesesteaks. I put mayonnaise on a cheesesteak.
+
+[10:48] Oh I like mayonnaise. Well, I don't know. You know, Greece could sell Greece. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[10:54] Greece could sell Greece. You know what another thing about mayonnaise. I argue with that logic. Another thing about mayonnaise is uh it doesn't actually go bad. You know, my grandma used to if like a sandwich with mayonnaise on it was out of the fridge for more than like two point two seconds, she'd be like, uh uh oh and she'd throw it away.
+
+[11:10] Yeah. What, because of the vinegar? Why is it stay? It's so much oil, there's so little water in it that like you know the stuff doesn't. This is why if you go to New Orleans, which I think we've talked about this on the show.
+
+[11:20] If you go to uh New Orleans and you uh and you know, you the their mayonnaise is just out. You know what I mean? And it's eight billion degrees there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, cultural thing.
+
+[11:31] I'm gonna do my pre-roll ad right now. What do you think, Dave? Oh, I would love that. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free uh videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com.
+
+[11:44] All right. Do we have any callers or should I crank some questions? Yeah, crank some questions. We're we're uh behind on that, right? We are totally behind on that.
+
+[11:51] Now that Nastasia has left the room momentarily, we can't. She's momentarily left the room. She'll be back. Um Darren writes in uh I'm a student uh uh with free access to scientific and technical literature. That's good, good, kudos to you.
+
+[12:04] Uh, what have you learned in terms of finding reputable information quickly? Authors are increasingly under pressure to publish and are sometimes funded by institutions with specific commercial interests. Furthermore, conclusions and abstracts are sometimes worded misleadingly, making scan reading rather difficult. Uh yeah, so it means it depends on what you're trying to do. If uh I don't trust uh in almost any health uh related um news that I get uh in the scientific literature.
+
+[12:29] And you can usually look for those things for um, you know, the letters that are written to kind of attack them right away. Like, especially if they're gonna make a like a particularly outlandish claim, there'll be um letters in in the in the actual issue where the stuff comes out that you can kind of uh look at. But when it comes to uh and and the other thing I do when I'm looking something up, is I I print, I you know, I do a search and I'll I'll PDF out like hundreds and hundreds of documents. And then uh in general, uh yeah, the abstract is only gives you a general idea of what you're doing, and then I usually hit uh the methods real quick to see what's going on, and then I skip uh almost everything, go to the discussions conclusions, and then if it warrants it, go back and see whether I agree with uh how it got there. But uh for actual cooking ideas and and uh techniques, um, you know, it's it's a lot I think easier to scan because you can get a really you know quick idea whether uh something for instance if they're like 15 a lot of times they'll they'll be like, oh, I bought 15 lamb to do this experiment, and it's sponsored by someone who grows lamb.
+
+[13:40] You're like, okay, they're just focused on on lamb, but sometimes you can see the articles are really, really um interesting. Another way you can do it is you can go to like review articles on things like meat texture, for instance, something I've done recently. Go to the review articles and then instead of trying to go forward, burrow backwards. If you find a recent review, you can burrow backwards into the articles that they cite. And so usually if you read a good review article by a good person, um, sometimes they just do like a poop spray of citations, but sometimes they give a nice kind of focus citations, or in the body of the paper, they'll reference what they're talking about, and so you'll hit the links on those, go back and get those papers.
+
+[14:16] And then furthermore, you can see kind of who cited the review, and you can go forward a little bit that way, find something you trust, and then kind of work backwards. But yeah, it's hit or miss and it takes a long time to research anything. I have like a couple thousand pages of uh stuff on meat texture. Maybe 50 of those pages are useful. Um and so it just takes like a lot of sifting through a bunch of garbage, you know, unfortunately.
+
+[14:39] Uh and second question is what do you think of the uh big green egg barbecue? I can't afford one yet, but I'm pretty intrigued by the design, and they seem to be all over the place. Yeah, I'm not like uh you know I I have uh Nastasia and Mark's uh big green egg up at you know my place in Connecticut, but I don't use it that much because um uh I'm not much of the stored I'm I'm not doing a stored heat uh kind of cooking binge right now, uh you know, uh a steady, even kind of thing. I'm more into the uh either very low, like low temperature stuff or kind of jet engine screaming uh radiant heat and or actual exposed fire. Like you should see I have a picture of the shad I might put up, Nastasia, where it's like like literally like fire is licking up around it so high because of all the grease getting out the grease that it's like you know, threatening to light light me and my cocktail on fire, which is good.
+
+[15:28] Yeah, cocktail. I was hoping it was something else. Oh family show, Nastasia. Family show. Uh Jesse wrote in uh what can I do to make salsa have a nice consistency besides just pureeing it more in a Vitamix?
+
+[15:42] Now, first of all, it's a very specific kind of salsa that you want to be that you know, that pureeed out on, right? I mean, Stasa, when you think of salsa, what are you thinking? Like you're you're from Los Angeles. What what's your stuff? If you just if someone just says to you salsa, what do you think?
+
+[15:54] Chunky like chunky, like pico de gallo kind of stuff. Yeah. Anyway, this is not that. So roasting tomatoes and tomatillos create a nice smooth emulsion-like consistency. What do you think of the word emulsion?
+
+[16:04] Right. Fine. Okay. Was wondering if you had any recommendations. I pureeed serranos, onions, poblanos, and pineapple, and it came out like little small granules of fruit and wanted to have a sexier texture without adding another flavor.
+
+[16:16] My question is, is the pineapple roasted? Um, and I you know, the thing is if you got a good texture with the tomatillos, which uh tomatillo skins break pretty easily, but tomatoes, depending on which tomato you're using, has you know a skin. I'm wondering whether the texture is from the pineapple primarily or from the skins on the peppers, if they were tougher than the ones you were using before. In either case, if you really want to uh, you know, I would take like not all of it, I would take some of it, like the pineapple, hit it with like an enzyme like SPL, blend the hell out of it, let it like kill itself down like that, then you don't want to use it straight like that because it'll settle out, it'll self-clarify. Uh then uh heat it to kill off the um and oh by the way, if you didn't cook the pineapple, like that's also gonna lead to a grainier texture.
+
+[17:02] So cooking the pineapple is gonna help cook it off. Then uh then blend it, maybe it's smoother. But let me know. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to go for here, so you know, give me some more information. Uh Sundeep wrote about uh ice.
+
+[17:15] Uh says, I've been fascinated with the innovations. Oh, my phone decided to mess with me. Uh I've been fascinated by the innovations made by tinkering with ice. Its significance has a key ingredient, is largely has largely been ignored until recently. Indeed, high-end bars tend to concentrate on developing uh in-house uh ice program, uh as is common in the US, so this is a non-US question, I would guess.
+
+[17:37] Uh, or sources, they're crystal clear ice products from special providers, has certainly helped bring ice to the forefront, enhancing both flavor and visual appeal. I was interested to read about your experiences in ice preparation at bars uh across Chicago, such as the famed Aviary. Now, listen, when I went to Aviary, I saw their ice stuff. I mean, obviously, I wasn't involved. I've never like lifted a finger other than to drink a drink at uh at Aviary, but yes, I saw some of their ice production stuff.
+
+[18:01] I'm trying to understand the types of technology and gadgets that are often used in such bars that constantly create innovative and functional products that complement one's drink. I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some advice and methods um to take advantage of uh artisanal ice and cocktails. Well, first of all, at Booker In Dax, we you know, we used um three basic kinds of ice. We used what I call crappy ice, and the crappy ice we would use for stirring, the crappy ice we would use to ice things down, uh, and uh, you know, general, you know, dilution related stuff uh like that. We you use something called shake ice, which is a two-inch, uh basically a two-inch, but not very high quality.
+
+[18:41] In other words, just frozen in the freezer, a cloudy, two-inch or two and change inch ice cubes for shaking, and we call that shake ice, and we'd use that for uh the texture, right? Because it adds texture. But you add that one plus one or two small shak uh crappy ice cubes, almost almost cursed. You hear that stuff? Almost cursed.
+
+[18:58] Uh one or two uh crappy cubes in it to get the dilution down. And then we used cut ice. And so for cut ice, we would buy sheets and then slice those sheets. I so you can buy fully cut ice cubes that are perfect squares. I don't think they're as nice as the ones that have like you two machine cut sides, but then you cut the last uh four sides with a knife, and it gives it a little bit of irregularity.
+
+[19:20] I think it looks nicer. What do you think, styles? I mean, I've never actually asked you. What do you think? Which one do you like to look up better?
+
+[19:25] I like the pre cut ones. You like the look of them or you like dealing with them? I guess I can't separate it. Uh what about when the pre cut ones come and they don't fit in the glasses and you have to cut them all down, which is a hundred percent of the time. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[19:38] Yeah, I hate them. I don't like the way they look and I like the way they look. I I much prefer the the ones that are partially hand cut. But yeah, for you, someone like you, it is hard to distinguish between what you think is easier and work and although what's weird is I don't understand why you would think it's easier or harder since the number of times I've made you cut ice at an event is let me see, zero. I have cut down the the pre-cut ones.
+
+[20:00] Yes. I've never cut right, yeah. So like since you hate doing the latter, you should probably order the other one because I'm never gonna uh now at the Aviary they do other stuff like they'll fill a balloon with water, they'll buy something called a um, they'll buy something called a uh a chiller, like uh, you know, a circulating chiller, poly science is I think the one they use, that's the one I had. That's it that circulates either alcohol or glycol or something like this at a very low temperature, and then they'll fill a balloon with water, and then they'll spin the balloon, and then you know Moto used to do a similar thing with other things. They'll spin the balloon uh in the um in the uh in the stuff and freeze a layer of water on the inside of the balloon, rip the balloon off, poke a hole, drain the water out of it, freeze it solid, and then they can fill it with a drink and cap it off.
+
+[20:49] So that's the kind of stuff that's like a like a presentation ice trick. I never did that stuff, um, because that's not my style, but that's like you know, something something you can do. Other people they buy uh they like spherical ice. I am not a fan of spherical ice. Like spherical ice is not my friend.
+
+[21:07] Like, I'll tell you why. When you um but anyway, you can buy these spherical ice molds that you take a large cube and then you melt it down using the fact that aluminum like tends to melt things very quickly and you melt them into spheres. Uh and I don't know if anyone ever built it, but you're supposed to build like a little uh it'd be easy to build like a circulating water through the aluminum block to keep it warm such that you could do fast throughput. Here's why I don't like I like if you had a drink and it sat there and it kept spinning the ball so it looked like one of those like sculpture things that you see in Chinatown or founds. Do you like those things, Dust?
+
+[21:39] The rock ball things? I don't know what it is. You know what I'm saying? It's like a rock ball on a thing and the water goes through hate those. What about waving cat?
+
+[21:46] You don't like the waving cat? What about the intertwined bamboo? No. You have nothing nice to say about Chinatown Tchotskis. Do not like Totchisky.
+
+[21:54] Speaking of Tchotchkis, uh you know who passed is uh Joni. Oh. Yeah. You can never make the choke. Joni Cunningham, so I can never make my my show idea that I had for years, which you know it's exactly loves chotskis.
+
+[22:09] I mean, that was my show idea. I mean, I never met her. Now it's too late, but wouldn't that, Dave? Wouldn't that be have been a great show? I mean, it would have made it for like one good episode, maybe.
+
+[22:17] Oh more. Oh, so many. I would watch that package. I would watch that. No, I could see that actually on like HD TV or something.
+
+[22:23] Yes, Joni loves Tchotkis. Yeah. And like, you know, that puts my my punting skills at their you know, highest use. I have another one that's a really good business idea. Uh I'm probably never gonna do it.
+
+[22:36] If if anyone does this idea out there, you owe Dax like several million dollars. You ready for it, Nastasia? I think I've heard it. What is it? I don't know, just to tell you.
+
+[22:45] All right. So you make you make peeps, marshmallow peeps. Have I told you this one? Maybe I'm already losing interest. Chocolate marshmallows, right?
+
+[22:55] In the shape of poop emojis, with the chocolate with with brown with uh granulated brown sugar on the outside, marshmallow poops, and you sell them in the thing millions of dollars. Millions of dollars. I think you're right, actually. Marshmallow poops. I want anyone make the check payable to Dax Arnold.
+
+[23:14] I'll give you the address. And like he the that poop is a trademark. No, but he well, the emoji is not a trademark. You can do whatever you want with the emoji. And secondly, I believe that you wouldn't have to pay the I swear to God, this is the name of the corporation, the Just Born Corporation.
+
+[23:30] You would not have to pay the Just Born Corporation in my non accurate legal mind, right? My my non trained non lawyer legal mind, because it is satire. And as such, would not actually be infringing on their copyright because it is satire in the way that garbage pail kids baseball cards when I was a kid weren't infringing on products like scope and uh everything else. I think you're wading into a gray area of the pool. Hey, uh I I hope it's a brown area of the pool with some sweet marshmallow poops.
+
+[24:01] Ew. Um how did we get to where were we? What were we talking about? Ice? Should we take a break and come back?
+
+[24:08] Yeah. Yeah, let's do that. Alright, red back, cooking issues. You have to read that. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps.
+
+[24:27] If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream. All perfectly cooked every time.
+
+[24:48] Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Step's amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect duneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner. For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J O U L E.
+
+[25:25] Oh, yeah. You guys, uh you guys missed it. I was doing my not safe for radio stuff. All right, some more uh doing some more business here, more business. Mid-roll ad.
+
+[25:35] That's what these are called, people. Mid-roll ad. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you. Janie Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiasts, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you.
+
+[25:55] They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to ch I'm breathing heavy, man. Because it's like you know, these are long things, and if they want the projection stuff out, I gotta be like I don't I need to learn how to circular breathe. I can circular whistle.
+
+[26:22] Can you circular whistle? You gotta go. Like blowing out, sucking in. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[26:29] Uh be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks. And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. And yes, that is what they call you, Nastasia. Culinary tools. They're our friends.
+
+[26:48] They are our friends. They're selling the spinzall. They're gonna make an enzyme kit. They're making uh hear that people? Enzyme kit.
+
+[26:54] Enzyme kit. Enzyme kit, spinzole and enzyme kit. Okay. Nick wrote in uh this is a long it says last week's episode, but that was like I feel like it was like last year when they uh when we did this. Uh last week's episode got me thinking about slushy machines, specifically the type that makes frozen beer foam.
+
+[27:11] Kieran Ichiban makes a machine uh as well as a South Korean company called Ice Tro. I'd like to buy one of these, but as you'd expect, there's very little info available online, and I can't find them for purchase anywhere. Will a standard slushy machine work as an alternative? No! No, no, no.
+
+[27:28] Uh or these specialized machines doing something differently. Yes. I don't want to risk breaking a standard machine. You will, as the sugar alcohol content of the beer is not high enough to prevent it from freezing solid. Thanks and keep up the good work, uh Nick.
+
+[27:39] Okay, so I'll I'll tell you a little story. It's not about a slushy machine. Margarita Villa Machine. No, it's about uh it's about a Taylor soft serve ice cream machine. So ice cream, uh ice cream savant, uh um Sam Mason came to the French Culinary Institute, you know, like well over a decade ago.
+
+[27:56] This is when he was still at uh at WD50. And uh he's like, hey Dave, I want a carbonate ice cream. I'm like, hey, Sam, I don't know, but you know what? Um we have an ice cream machine here, and uh, you know, I mean, let's try it. And so, like, I like take the ice cream machine, I try to seal it up as best as I can.
+
+[28:16] I shove a uh I shove a you know a CO2 line into it, and we try to carbonate the ice cream mix as it's going. And that sucker, like I blew the gasket off, and like ice cream base went all over the pastry kitchen. This was on the second floor pastry kitchen that they turned into the family kitchen. Remember that place? Ice cream base everywhere, and then the pastry, the pastry chefs never let me, they never let me live it down.
+
+[28:42] It's like, well, how are you gonna learn unless you fail? You know what I mean? How you gonna learn unless you fail? So the answer is no. You need a special machine that can hold uh the the pressure.
+
+[28:52] Now, here's another thing to keep in mind. Uh when people want to carbonate things that are that are slushy. You cannot carbonate ice. Let me repeat this again. You cannot carbonate ice, right?
+
+[29:04] What happens is is you use in a slushie, you have uh a good chunk of the water is still unfrozen, somewhere like like north of 50% of the stuff is still unfrozen, it just has crystals in it. And when it's that cold, right, you can get like a hypercarbonation feeling just because the liquid that's there is very highly charged with CO2. But remember that you can't set your machine to freeze it even close to solid, so close to like I would guess what, like uh, you know, a I don't really know the water percentage uh versus ice percentage on a commercial slushy. I don't really know. Do you know, Stuzz?
+
+[29:39] No, I do not. Anyway, uh in one of these machines, it's like 10 to 50 percent, but it's all done under pressure, and so you cannot do it with a regular slushing machine. Someone tell me that they've done it, tell me how to do it, and I'd be happy. The easiest way to approximate it is just to do the old school, like uh, you know, super chill it in uh carbonated thing in your freezer, like hit it. And you know who used to have a machine that would do this is um Andy Ricker had a machine from Thailand where they took a windshield washer motor, windshield wiper motor, and they hooked it up to a giant like bucket, like almost like a washing machine bucket, and then you salt and ice and put the beer and it was like a hula dance, ch and then he would pull out the beer, pop it and hit it, and it would just crystallize up like that into a beer slushy.
+
+[30:25] Andy Ricker likes cats. That is a true, not germane, but possibly interesting fact about Andy Ricker. Yeah. Um, got another question in here, which I can't see because my phone decides that I don't want to see it. I don't know why.
+
+[30:41] Uh Daniel writes in. Um, I'm I'm in the planning stages of rebuilding our kitchen and had a question. I've heard you talk repeatedly about how Dave's home oven can really crank. Did you install a commercial range? Okay, listen.
+
+[30:55] Uh okay, I have a second. Uh, or hack a traditional rage to bump up the BTUs. Uh, I've been doing some research about installing a commercial range, but my contractor and family members, Reed the Wife, seem to think I've lost my mind. You might have lost your mind. So they the here's the problem, right?
+
+[31:09] It depending on your jurisdiction, uh, a commercial range might be illegal in your house, right? And the reason is is that commercial ranges don't have the same kind of insulation on them that a residential range does. Could also have issues with your um with insurance, etc. etc. Uh now, uh what I did is I bought the commercial line of a company that also makes residential ranges so that everyone could say, Oh, he's just putting in a wolf oven.
+
+[31:37] That's like an oven that people have in their house. It's like some high-end, you know, high-end, like, you know, some sort of like home chef, which by the way is a word I hate. Home chef oven. You know what I mean? Home chef, what does that mean, stuff?
+
+[31:48] Nothing. Nothing. Means nothing. Home chef. Cook.
+
+[31:50] Home cook. Love the word cook. Cook has honor, right? Like a chef runs a kitchen, right? Unless you're paying your kids and your family to cook for you, you're not a chef in the kitchen, right?
+
+[32:01] You might be the best cook in the world. You might kick the pants off of any, you know, actual chef. But the fact of the matter is you're a cook and there's honor in that. Am I wrong about this, Stez? So right.
+
+[32:10] Anyways. So you have this uh he's putting a wolf in, so I'm sure it's fine. But my wolf really, really, really, really screams. And I did modify it, but don't tell anyone I did. And it is not necessarily smart for a bunch of things because as you note, you will not have a commercial fire retardation system like an Ansel in your place.
+
+[32:26] Uh so I don't recommend anyone ever do any of the stuff that I do. I mean, I I just don't recommend it. Um, but it is awesome. Uh the results I'm looking for are a broiler that can get as uh close to a salamander as possible and burners that can help pots recover a little more reasonably. Uh been stuck on a on with a puny 5,000 BTU gas range in our NYC rental and really looking for an upgrade.
+
+[32:48] Yeah, 5,000 is weak, weak. You can get like I'm putting air quotes on like uh like prosumer ranges that'll do uh like upwards of 20. Five is just incredibly weak. Here's what you want to look for though. When you're buying a commercial range, don't modify your range, please.
+
+[33:03] Don't like don't get like kicked out of your place or like you know, have like get sued or better yet, or worse yet, brought up on criminal charges because you killed someone because your house burnt down, apartment building burnt down. But the um, especially nowadays in New York, you you know, gas work, you know, is really, really, really touchy. Um, but uh when you have a very high-powered burner, a lot of times you lose low-end throttling capabilities. So you want to make sure that um, for instance, like let's say you were going to, which I don't recommend, bore out the uh the orifice on your gas jets to get a and you were able to increase the uh air in such that you weren't uh red tipping too hard. You were getting nice blue flames on it, but you were getting a bigger flame.
+
+[33:43] Let's say you knew how to do that, right? Um often you'll won't be able to throttle it low to get a good simmer. So, like on my oven, because I told my uh the plumber because I was told that I had to do it legitimately. I with a plumber, I was like, please install this regulator in front of my gas oven because any even semi-commercial oven needs uh a regulator on it. And they didn't install it, even though I told them to, the same way that they didn't install freaking quarter turn ball valves on my on my water plumbing, even though I told them I would pay twice as much, even though they only cost a nickel more.
+
+[34:15] And they like there's no reason to ever use non-quarter turn ball valves on any water uh fixture in in your house for the shutoff. Uh anyway, I digress. But the point is, didn't install the regulator, and so my oven, my my burners scream, scream, but they don't throttle down. Uh and so I'm thinking of one of these days, like doing it myself, putting the regulator in properly. Uh anyway, uh I think I might have answered this, but uh BJD wrote in and said, I see a lot of recipes for soaking shag bark hickory bark and shag bark, not shad, shag, like shaggy, like the character.
+
+[34:50] Yeah, uh to uh to make a syrup, but nothing about tapping a hickory tree. A guy in a house down the street uh taps his shag barks. Are you familiar with hickory syrup by a tapping and not an infusion? Any thoughts? I have many shag barks I can tap.
+
+[35:04] Uses sent respectfully from my phone, be did d. I don't. What I would do is do you hate this person? Uh if you do not hate this person with a passion, right? Go ask for some of their syrup and see or the sap and see how it tastes, and then let me know how it is.
+
+[35:21] I mean, I have no, you know, I only have one or uh most of the hickories on on uh my property are uh mocker nuts and bitternuts, uh pig nuts. I don't have like uh I have like only a couple uh good um shag barks, so I can't really tap them, but you know, I would be curious to know. I think a lot of our listeners would be curious to know. I've had uh a number of birch syrups, which I think I took talked about recently uh on air, and they tend to be much more acidic. And I think one of the reasons, although I don't know, is that it requires a lot more boil down.
+
+[35:50] So there's a lot other uh I guess you'd call conjuners in it than there would be in maple syrup. Um anyway. Martin Hudson writes in uh oh no, Martin writes in from Hudson, Wisconsin about uh walks. Hey, uh Dave Nastasi and David, uh and any honored or dishonored in the case of Peter Kim guess. We uh emailed we emailed Peter Kim this morning yesterday when I got there.
+
+[36:11] Oh, really? Oh, I emailed him again, and he and he finally got back to us, so it's like he's like dishonored guests and then he was like, you know, he's he said something really douchey. He's playing like a thousand like tiny violins for his pity party. You know what I mean? It's like I should be so honored as to be someone's dishonored guest.
+
+[36:27] You know what I'm saying? Anyways, uh people like the Peter Kim on the show though. Not like love. They love the Peter Kid. They love Peter Kim because I don't know, he you know, he pushes, he pushes the buttons, Peter Kim's.
+
+[36:41] Speaking of uh the reason I wanted Peter Kim on today, not just because he's a dishonored guest, but because uh Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink at you know www.mofad.org, just got raided by Grub Street, one of the top, like uh not that I don't even know. We were like number two, so I didn't even know see how long the list was. Chill a museum to take kids to in uh New York. So Booya, just below the American Museum of Natural History, Boo and Ya. That's my favorite museum.
+
+[37:08] Uh it is a pretty uh butt-kicking museum. I think did you go see the mummies? No. You had to go see the mummies. So crowded.
+
+[37:15] Uh yeah, go during the week. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Um I think I have a card that'll get you for free. I go through the gift shop.
+
+[37:23] Whoa, old school cheat. You know, someday Nastasia and I just have to do an episode that is purely like the shady, crappy things that like I had to stop doing once I had kids because I was no longer proud to do them and be a father, but ways to get around paying for X, Y, and Z. Nastasia, Nastasia is like the queen of such tricks. Yes. That's true.
+
+[37:48] You know what I used to do? Because like this is how like you you're trying to try to maintain some sort of dignity. I used to scrounge around at the Met on the ground for the buttons. Yeah. Do you ever do that?
+
+[37:57] No. You can go into the gift shop and then you can be like, oh my god, I don't know where it is. Oh, that says lying. That's lying. You want to know what no one has the stones to do?
+
+[38:07] My suggested price is zero. You know what I mean? Like the ones that which one's the one that's suggested. Is that the like who has you have to look that person in the eye and tell them that you're that cheap that you won't pay anything for what is undoubtedly one of the finest museums in the whole world. Yeah.
+
+[38:25] You know what I mean? Even though honestly at this point in our lives, we can afford to go to that museum. It's not like we're, but this like being like being like you know, 20 years old and like only not having any money is still in your head, right? When you're going up to pay for it. Like you you can't suddenly jump out.
+
+[38:43] Someday it goes away. That feeling? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[38:48] Uh we had another question in uh uh from Darren. Uh I mentioned I'm an aerospace engineering intern and I'm currently designing a two-phase heat exchanger uh for metal 3D printing. The resolution of these systems is pretty awesome. Think details of less than half a millimeter, which is by the way, pretty good. Uh so the parts can be very complex.
+
+[39:07] Uh, if you guys, meaning us had access to selective laser centering, what would you like to make for the borrow your own kitchen? I don't know. That's a really interesting question. I'd like to hear from the uh cooking issues uh listeners what they think like the best 3D metal print, because I would just print every damn thing. I would just wake up and be like, this spoon, I don't like it anymore.
+
+[39:25] And I would print a new one, right? Wouldn't you? Yeah. I would just do all sorts of Christmas village. I would make my I would go on SolidWorks and make a you know a juicer that I could print out of metal for no problem.
+
+[39:35] Like, you know, finely the ultimate juicer. I would definitely do that. I would print a bunch of metal jiggers because right now I'm using plastic jiggers. I would print, like, you know, there's so much stuff I would print if I had um chat room says a lot of espresso parts. I guess they mean it for an espresso machine.
+
+[39:49] Oh, to build their own, like what, like a custom porta filter? I guess. Problem is right he right now is printing out of aluminum, but he can print check this people. He can print titanium and magnesium. How sick is that?
+
+[40:01] Titanium. But in general, people for their porta filters. I think stupidly, by the way, I'm just gonna go ahead and say that. They like brass. Brass is more stable, but it also sucks energy up.
+
+[40:10] So when it does go out of temperature, it throws all the other temperatures off. I I mean, I could go for a long time about like you know, old school versus kind of what I think a more modern approach to uh certain of those designs. Not that I'm an expert anymore. Anyway, anyway. Um see what else we got here.
+
+[40:27] Uh John, uh relatively new listener. Um I saw heard a podcast where you talked about soda streams and carbonation, wanted to offer some advice. I'm a brewer, uh, so I know a fair amount about carbonation. For home carbonation, uh, this is John saying this, uh, simplest, cheapest way to go is to buy old soda kegs, a CO2 regulator, and a tank. Carbonate five gallons at a time can be served on tap.
+
+[40:48] That's what I do. I have four taps at home, one is dedicated to soda water. I say I a slight disagreement with you here. I think if you have a refrigerator that holds kegs, then I would say yes. But otherwise, if you're doing a five-gallon um like corny keg and you're putting soda water in it, you're gonna have to put it through a cold plate, which you have to ice down, right?
+
+[41:07] So either you keep the water cold and you have to do the carbonation on the five gallons, or you're putting it through uh a cold plate. Cold plate is I think beyond what anyone is gonna do. And I think once you get a cold plate, if you're actually gonna get a cold plate, you might as well just get a carbonator, which is what I have, you know, like a McCann Big Mac carbonator, which is a lot more expensive, but it's pretty sick, and then putting it through a really good valve. Um, you know, I use one with a nice compensator on it. But uh, you know, I think if you have a beer system already with it like a kegerator or a fridge that's dedicated to holding beer, then a hundred percent I think you're right.
+
+[41:42] Like a five-gallon corny keg is a good way to go. Um, I think for people at home, you know, who don't want to use a soda stream, the good thing about doing it in the bottles with the carbonation cap from the liquid bread people, which is what I use for cocktails, is that you only have to chill the bottles that you're about to use, right? And so pretty much everyone can just stick a bunch of one-liter bottles of water in their fridge and then carbonate it when the when the time comes. Uh, two, uh, that this is John referring to me. You keep saying nitrous, it's not nitrous, it's nitrogen.
+
+[42:11] Nitrous gets you high, nitrogen doesn't. Uh, then you go on to say nitrogen only stays in solution at very high pressure. So when something is dispensed on nitrogen, it wants to come out of solution, you get beautiful waterfall effect like Guinness. You can have a variety of blends, but Guinness blend is 75 nitrogen and 25 CO2. Yeah, I know that.
+
+[42:27] That's cool that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about nitrous. I specifically do not want nitrogen. Uh, you know, I want nitrus, which is very soluble and allows you to get really interesting texture effects. Commercially, the only things I've ever seen that have been done with nitrous, uh, AW and Sunkis did kind of creamsicle and root beer float drinks that were charged with nitrous.
+
+[42:52] Uh they didn't really catch on. Now people are doing coffee beverages with nitrous N2O and uh and because it provides uh a very lively effect without having the prickliness of carbonation. So in a nitrogen situation, other than just having the kind of waterfall effect, you also uh you are able to dispense at a higher pressure without having too much CO2 in it, overcarbonate it, right? Like a beer gas situation. But yeah, I'm specifically doing nitrous.
+
+[43:17] Nitrous is difficult to source because, as you say, it will get you high if you huff it. Back uh the tank I used to have at uh the French Cullery Institute, and we had one at Booker and Dax as well. Like the one rule I really had that was hard and fast with our interns were you may not huff the nitrous. You may not huff the nitrous. It's one of our only uh rules.
+
+[43:37] But yeah, when I carbonate on a mixed gas system, I am definitely not pushing nitrogen. In fact, if anyone tried to push nitrogen into my water, I'd I'd give them a stern, a stern look and a and a a stern talking to. Nastas, you see my stern look and talking to. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[43:53] Uh anyways. Uh there's a company called this three. There's a company called AC Beverage who makes a product called Cellurstream. It is used to take still still st still beer kegs, hook them up, uh, and it will nitrogenate them on the fly. This is a great asset to allowers and brewers to not have to worry about getting the proper amount of nitrogen solution to the keg that can simply pull the beer out from fermentation, fill the kegs, hook them up and let the cellar stream do the work.
+
+[44:15] Interesting. I don't know that product. I am interested, there's a person that makes uh an an inline carbonator that basically just circulates uh a five-gallon corny keg through a carbonation stone uh a bunch of times. Um I forget who makes it. Same people that make the beer gun, which I've never been that happy with.
+
+[44:31] Anyway. Uh hope this helps you guys have a very informative podcast and I enjoy it. Uh cheers, John. Uh, your sister, what time is this, uh? 55.
+
+[44:40] Woo! Your sister wrote in. Oh, last question. What do you want to take? Your sister or Claire?
+
+[44:45] Oh, God. Uh my sister. Your sister? All right. So uh Natty wrote in.
+
+[44:50] Natty Lopez wrote in, who uh where is she now? She's at at the home and country garden town and country. She's not doing the show anymore. We frightened the hell out of her. She just hung up on you.
+
+[45:04] Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you do. Uh I remember. Yes. W when do you know that eggs are old? That's the that's it.
+
+[45:12] Yeah, yeah. Now, people, remember family show. We're not talking about like the not talking about the latest. I'm worried for my sister. Yeah, we're not first of all, what is she, like 25, 22?
+
+[45:24] Something like she. Maybe she should see an OBGYN. Yeah, like listen, you're too young to worry about the quality of the eggs at this point. You don't need to go on a freezer on a freezer binge, like other people who shall remain nameless. Nastasi, true or false.
+
+[45:40] Like the thing that the the city thing to do now is to like freeze up a pastel of eggs so that you might want to use them later. It's not the cool thing to do? People are scared. Of what? Lots of things.
+
+[45:54] They don't understand it. The only reason I think it's great is because I understand liquid nitrogen. Ah, I see. So we're not talking about that kind of eggs, people. We're talking about like, you know, eggs in your fridge eggs.
+
+[46:05] So classically, first of all, if you just look at a package, uh, they have a date on them, and I forget what the number is. I think it's like four months or something like that. But eggs. Yeah, but if you threw it away. If you threw away the package, just uh do the old float test.
+
+[46:17] If the egg sinks, it means that the air cell at the top is relatively small. What happens is as an egg ages, eggs are porous, and um the gas cell in it will get uh bigger and bigger. So uh an egg that goes to the bottom is very fresh, an egg that stands up in a bowl of water, is meh, and then an egg that floats. It's not necessarily bad, but it's older, so it's gonna have a lot more uh thin white versus thick white. It will have lost live as thick white, and so it won't make as nice of a fried uh egg and it'll have a big big air sack in it, but it still probably is not spoiled.
+
+[46:51] It's still probably uh the egg is fine. Most eggs are fine, especially you're gonna cook them. You know what I mean? Like most eggs are are fine. Um, you know, when was the last time you had back when I was a kid, if you wanted to throw a rotten egg at someone Halloween time, you had to like store those things for weeks and weeks.
+
+[47:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave, you used to do that when you were hanging out when you were a kid? Sorry, what'd you say? Storing uh eggs to get them rotten for Halloween time? No.
+
+[47:17] Yeah, yeah, you have to store them a long, long time. Eggs don't want to go back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[47:23] Uh are we are we are we done or no? Because we have a related quick question. All right, real quick. All right, Claire wrote in uh and said, uh, was reading this uh article uh from February this year in the New York Times from uh Kim Severson about refrigerating uh eggs. And it's like uh our culinary compatriots in Europe, Asia, and other parts of the world leave uh beautiful bowls of eggs on their kitchen counters.
+
+[47:45] Uh so uh what giz? And actually, I shouldn't have started this, Dave, because it's a whole thing. We've dealt with it before on the Washington eggs versus not. So if anyone wants to hear the whole uh why we refrigerate our eggs uh in this country, like a lot has to do, you know, first of all, with uh I can get into it next time. If anyone's interested in hearing the rant on eggs, email me.
+
+[48:07] Email Nastasia and see what's going on. Otherwise, we finally caught up on questions. Boom! Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[48:31] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[48:58] Want to be a part of the food World's Most Innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[1:00] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 for Burns Petrie at Bushwick, Brooklyn. Uh joined uh as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stu?
+
+[1:25] I'm using Nastasia's normal microphone, and it's even more kind of like worse than yours, right? It's even worse than mine. I'm surprised. I always thought I was giving you the good one, but no, it's all like bent and crooked. We got Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:35] How are you doing, Dave? I'm good. You're not bent and crooked in here. Wow. Why does Lord It Over us, Dave?
+
+[1:42] I think I just did. All right. Uh, but listen, you're gonna want to get your uh telephones or whatever you use, Skypages or whatever you do, to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128, because today in the studio, we have two special guests. We have Elias Cairo from Olympia uh Olymp Olympic Olympia Provisions.
+
+[2:02] I always want to say Olympic, and then you'll shoot me in the face. I'll support you. All right. Uh in Portland. Uh we met how long ago?
+
+[2:09] Like about in the spring. Six months ago? Yeah, yeah, at the uh Oregon Truffle Fest. And I had the great good fortune of uh going to a special dinner uh at uh at OP and uh fantastic. So I'll just say for those of you that are going to Portland, legit.
+
+[2:23] I'm gonna give it the cooking issues legit stamp. Awesome. Uh and we also have in the uh in the studio uh Samantha, what's your last name, Samantha? Chulik. That is correct.
+
+[2:36] Wow, so what's so like we're just gonna get this out of the way now. So did you start out wanting to be a food PR person, or are you just a general by the way, do you find the term flack offensive or not? No, we're good. All right. So did you start out as kind of a general purpose flack?
+
+[2:49] So you could either be selling thumbtacks or food or cars, or are you one of these people that actually enjoys food? I strictly food and beverage. All right, so you're as we s as we like to say, one of the good ones. Yeah. Because I you know, like uh in in a lot of businesses, um Sarah, you know, Elias, you know what I'm talking about.
+
+[3:07] It's like you get these people in there, they don't really care what the hell they're selling. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like Dave over here, he doesn't care what he's recording. Noise.
+
+[3:16] Wow, is that really what you think of me? I'm just busting you because of the microphone crack, Dave. Come on. You know it's all love in here. It's all do you feel better now?
+
+[3:23] No, I feel slightly dirty. Um we got a bunch of uh cool stuff. Uh call in calling your questions, like I say. So you know, for those of you that don't know uh Elias, he's like uh uh a hunter, a cure master, uh like uh you own these two restaurants, right? Uh two real restaurants and then three fast casual, like hot dog beer bar type places.
+
+[3:48] And then also wrote what is it now? Well, wrote a billion years ago and then came out like a year and a half ago, right? Yeah, yeah. It takes a billion years to write a book. Slowest thing I've ever done.
+
+[3:56] Yes, be I'm just gonna get this out of the way right now. My kids, both my freaking kids, decide last week, in the middle of me writing a book that has a lot of meat cookery, that this is gonna be the time that they go vegetarian. Oof. You know what I'm talking about. It happens, right?
+
+[4:12] Yeah. Uh and so here it is. I'm like, you know, um you yeah, what am I gonna eat? A whole freaking crown roast by myself? I'm gonna eat like uh I'm gonna do like a Chateaubriand for one?
+
+[4:23] Like what like what the heck am I gonna do here? Invite the neighbors over, make good friends. Uh yeah, but you know what? I'm just not like that. I'm not like that.
+
+[4:30] So I don't know how it is in Portland. First of all, by the way, you guys uh over there at Olympia Provisions, the only people in Portland who are guaranteed to be working at any given time. Am I right? So true. Yeah, I mean, like what is what is it with Portland and the lack of like work?
+
+[4:43] They're there. But people are retiring when they're like 20. I know. A lot of them. I know.
+
+[4:52] I I get flack all the time for being hardworking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nastasia's got her Portland face on, which is I can't believe nobody's working here. Why really it's all jealousy? It's like why didn't why didn't we do this?
+
+[5:02] Yeah. Uh but anyway, I don't know how we got I don't know how we got on the subject of uh working in working in it. But anyway, so um so yeah, so this book came out in uh what, the end of 15 or something like that? Yeah, October. Um yeah, so it's called uh American Shark Equality Well, how do you pronounce the title?
+
+[5:19] American charcuterie Great question. Olympia do you start with the Olympia provisions? I say Olympia provisions. And then American charcutery Quality meets. Yep.
+
+[5:27] I say cured meats and tails by Olympia provisions from an American charcuterie. See how I had to read that? I like it. I like that. But anyway, what I'm gonna say about this book, and we actually talked about it a little bit in uh Portland.
+
+[5:39] It's a super pretty book. Like I think it's like a really, really beautiful book. Uh and um what I and I mentioned this to you and you actually said, I think, unless my memory is like zonked, I didn't have that much uh sparkling wine that day, that uh, you know, one of my favorite series of cookbooks in the world is the Time Life series of cookbooks uh that came out in I guess starting in the late 60s and going through the early 70s where they go around the world. And the cool thing about it is well the cool thing now is you can get them for like two dollars a piece, they're still free. It's they get the whole set.
+
+[6:09] People go out right now, go on eBay, get the whole set. A must-have. Yeah, must absolutely must-have. And uh they hired not that food photographers aren't real photographers, please don't get me I don't want to hear it, but they hired people who like were, you know, like for instance, sports illustrated photographers or uh, you know, general subject photographers. And so these books have some of the sickest photography like anywhere.
+
+[6:33] And so like a lot of the photos you have here have I mean they're modern, they're not from the 70s, sure, but they uh, you know, it's printed on that kind of matte paper, so it's got that awesome kind of flat feel to it. Totally. And you know, you've got a lot of like, you know, not straight recipe shots in it. Totally. Um and so anyway, so I think it's a really, really uh uh really beautiful book.
+
+[6:55] Thank you. And I also um I like the way that it's uh you know, it's per it's it's also personalized. You know what I mean? So it reminds me of like, you know, anyone who writes nowadays is gonna be obviously more not that he wasn't technically minded, don't get but like you know, Bertoli's book, Cooking by Hand, right, was I think an extremely personal book that was tackling some technical subjects before anyone else had written on this on these kinds of subjects before. Uh I still think it's a mean I haven't okay, I haven't read it in over a decade.
+
+[7:24] Still such an amazing book. Yeah, but I mean, great book. But so, like, you know, I really like books that are personal but that tackle uh like real issues uh in the kitchen. And you can tell when you go through it that this is you know, written uh, you know, I know some of the recipes are yours, some are like, you know, pastry chefs and a bunch of different people, but written by people who actually know what they're doing. It's not like you made this once and now you've written it down and that's it, which is you know an unfortunate thing cookbooks do.
+
+[7:49] Hey, speaking of reading, can you quickly read that thing I put in there? Oh god dang it. The pre-roll ad, we're gonna do some business. I gotta do some business. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks.
+
+[8:03] Visit blog.modernistpantry.com. Uh back to your regularly schedule program. Nailed it! All right, let me uh Nastasia, let me see the book for a second. I want to read this quote that I think Nastasia is gonna love the most out of the introduction because this is like this going back to like uh like a work ethic in Portland.
+
+[8:19] So you grew you like grew up like a Greek family in freaking Utah. Salt Lake City, Sam. What the heck's that all about? There's a lot of Greeks out there. Really?
+
+[8:26] Yeah, yeah. Like for the it's the same climate as like the Spartan and Mountain Greeks, you know, sagebrush, cold winters. There's a ton of Greek great Greek food. Really? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:33] So my dad moved out there because Copper Mine, the Kennicott Copper Mine was originally owned by a Greek man and he brought all of his hardworking Greek friends from the mountains to come mine it, and then they came back and told their children how amazing Salt Lake City is. At least that's how the story goes. And there's a ton of Greeks and a ton of Greek churches out there, and yeah, it's great food. So like uh is it is it is there a big culture clash between like, you know, the Greek Orthodox and the Mormon? Is there is there like a Yeah, you know, like Michelle and I and Billy Villamis, if you're out there, we're the only three Greeks in our elementary school.
+
+[9:03] And the rest were all LDS. LDS are beautiful people. There's a little quote in their little story in there that we got called to the uh principal's office because uh we stunk too much like garlic and the kids couldn't focus, and my father walked in and like super Greek, like at you know, thick accent and be like, your children smell like detergent and ripped us out of school. And like took us like it's like you're not going there. We're teaching you another rest of the year we stayed at home and homeschooled.
+
+[9:26] Well, this is gonna be a propos. So this is a quote of about your dad uh where you know you're I guess you know, uh paraphrasing what he might say to you. Need glue? Go cut into the pine tree and mix the sap with sand to make it pliable. Oh, you were planning on buying glue?
+
+[9:41] Are you lazy or just stupid? So true. Right? Yeah. And Stastasia, like now Nastasia didn't know you, but now she loves you because that's like her that's her whole attitude.
+
+[9:51] Uh her whole attitude on it. Also, another thing Nastassi's gonna like about it. You spend some time cooking in Switzerland. Yeah. This crazy did you see this place, Nastasia?
+
+[9:59] There he worked at this restaurant where it's like someone just I don't know how the hell they got the the building there, but it's like a carbuncle shoved onto the side of a freaking mountain. Yeah. Uh what's that what's that place called? That one's called the Hotel Asher or Berg Restaurant Asher. It's an app and cellar.
+
+[10:16] It's just on the fucking water. Where is the where is it? That's in the northeast corner of Switzerland. That's in the Cantoon Appenseller, but that whole region is called Sengala. So like uh Austria, Germany, the Bodensee, or what do you uh yeah, Lake Constance, all that right there.
+
+[10:29] It's the mountains right above that. How the hell do they get their fat well? First of all, like where are their customers coming from? Yeah, like the Swiss are super hardy people and they love to eat when they're hungry. And so like the idea of going on an all-day hike to eat like, you know, a huge smoked meat and chunk of cheese and like some fruit is just what they love to do.
+
+[10:44] And like you'll be out there hiking thinking you're pretty cool, and like a seven-year-old grandma will fly by you. Just being like, oh da do yodel it, and then cruising up to the Did you learn to Yoda while you're over there? No, not very good. I tried. Nastasi and I both love the yodeling game on the price is right.
+
+[11:01] Beautiful game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember that? What were we who are we making fun of? Temperature.
+
+[11:06] You need to add that in your book. The sous vide temperature, like the yodel. And then if you get the wrong temperature, it's overcome to the colour. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:13] That's awesome. And and we were trying to remember the tune, I can never remember the tune. Right? We we could never like for some reason it's one of the you know there's those tunes that just leave your head and you can't get them back in your head. And then there's those tunes like the theme from Quincy that go into your head and you can't get them out of your head.
+
+[11:27] Three weeks later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, or Rockford Files for that matter. But Rockford Files I feel deserves to be in your head. I mean, you know, Rockford Files and Sanford Sun, whenever those theme songs come into your head, you're like, all right.
+
+[11:38] It's a good day. That's good. Fair. That's that's just good business. Uh all right, so before we get uh too far in, uh a couple of bones I have to pick, so we might as well fight about it now.
+
+[11:47] We're both lovers of nitrate and uh nitrites, obviously, in curing. Uh and you make a lot of uh amusing points about uh you know, not kind of worrying about it, because a lot of people are worrying about it, especially over probably on the West Coast, you get all the right all the time. Literally for everything, that voice. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like uh you know the thing is I I think I've said this on air, but like uh it's only been the last three years that people have gotten through my armor at events.
+
+[12:13] Like usually I can maintain my kind of I'm happy to serve you customers always right kind of a thing. It's only been the past couple of years that somehow it's just like too many hits, and I'm like, I was like, ugh. Yeah, you do the breed. Yeah, yeah. And so he's like, what the hell is that?
+
+[12:33] Because I always ride her about it. You know what I mean? I always ride her like a pony for like for like showing her displeasure. Family show, family show. Well, oh, well, not like that.
+
+[12:42] You know what I'm saying? Dang, hands. Gutter Dave. Uh anyway, so like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[12:53] Only recently have it been like but the uh so you say that it's a hundred percent illegal to cure meats without uh you know nitrates or nitrates, but super long cure stuff like dry cure, like hams, like prosciutto de parma, you can do without nitrates. Not that you need to, not that I think it makes it better, but the classic Italian one nowadays is made without that stuff. And furthermore, you can do anything legally if you have the hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend that it's a safe process. To prove it. Yeah, you gotta prove it.
+
+[13:21] Yeah. You gotta prove it. But yes, in general, I think what you're like what I think you're probably reacting to. And Harold McGee sent me an email uh yeah about Oscar Meyer now is doing their nitrate-free nitrite-free hot dogs. Yeah, of course.
+
+[13:34] Hot dogs. And it says uh cured oh see, the only the nitrates, of course, this is the standard, only the nitrates naturally found in celery jokers. Like they should be everyone should be skewered. This is Whole Foods' fault. Of course.
+
+[13:48] Absolutely. This is freaking Whole Foods' fault. You know, Samantha, you don't flack for them, do you? No, I didn't. All right.
+
+[13:53] So like like it's a hundred percent their fault. It's garbage. I mean, the the food can be taste good, but the the the labeling is garbage. Yeah. It's total smoke and mirrors.
+
+[14:02] Everybody out there, I want you on all of your labels and in all of your food on your menu to write to write this. Contains no salt other than that naturally found in the ocean. That would be great. Yeah, and then you're like, oh, sea salt. Uh yeah.
+
+[14:17] Yeah, yeah, right? You can do it. Because it's the same freaking thing. You know what I mean? Absolutely.
+
+[14:21] It's like you take like eight billion. What do they do with the rest of the celery? Well, they just pure it. So they they load the they load the soil or chard or whatever they're using for their nitrate thing. They overload the manure with nitrate.
+
+[14:32] Right. And so when the the the spinach or the charred's growing in that, it picks up all the extra nitrate, the exact same compound that is in regular nitrate, then they puree and then they use that as their salt and their nitrate. It's just the same thing. Total loop pull. My favorite thing is that called Switzerland, right?
+
+[14:44] Where I did my apprenticeship and I was like, hey man, uh, you know, what are you guys doing about nitrate? Just total brain fart like they'd give a living shit about it. And they're like, hey, uh, what are you talking about? We give nitrate to our children when they're sick. Like this it's it's good for you.
+
+[14:57] It's a vitamin. I don't know what the hell's wrong with you Americans. And I'm like, I think good good conversation, I'm gonna leave now. Yeah, well, but on the other hand, the Europeans have their own issues, right? I mean, like every place has its own issues.
+
+[15:06] But before the uh cooking issues. Hey Nastasia, flip through there and look at the do you see the hot dog picture? I think I bookmarked it. Something about it? No, I just think it's like this is the kind of picture I like.
+
+[15:16] Like a bunch of hot dogs, and then like a couple pictures later, this this oh I know, this uh inn that's shoved into the side of a mountain. So question how the hell do they get their food into that place? Depending on where, so that this place is pretty amazing. The one it's called the Asher is because they their whole thing is they have these two gigantic limestone water pits behind there that that's the only water they can get up there. So the the water filters through the cliffs and lands in these limestone pits.
+
+[15:41] As soon as they're out of water, they're completely closed for the year, and then they go back to carrying me, hunting me, and raising meat. What do you think about that, Nastasia. Oh, yeah, it's super they're super freaking amazing. This place up there, to put it into perspective with two cooks, does about 500 covers at lunch. And they do rochsti, which is you know, boiled potatoes and that.
+
+[15:57] You know, now there's a tram it goes up the backside and they bring it across on mule. Um, but still, like the water and all the meat that the father and son bring up on mule or like twice a year. Literal pack mule. Pack mule. Yeah.
+
+[16:08] The one the bigger one, the one at the end there, the Rothstein Pass, the one at where you see these ibex there. This is the path to it. It's up like this cliff. And you run across it. That one, the only way to get anything up there is with mule.
+
+[16:20] So everything is brought up on mule. And they do uh Steinbock Pfeffer, which is those Ibex that are soured like sauerbratten, and then they slowly braise it and then they thicken it with blood. And so it makes this, then they can it and then they put it on the mules, and then they take it up top. And when you get up there, you're also gonna have rochdi steinbuckfeffer, applesauce, and sour cream. So like what's the portion size on that?
+
+[16:40] Really? Oh lunch. Yeah, no, like a rochdi. Go get a charcuterie board or a cheese plate at any one of these places, and it's like for 10 in America. Well, you hiked up the side of a freaking cake.
+
+[16:49] You deserve it. That's like uh that's like I was talking to uh a sherpa, uh, and he was like, I was like, yeah, how come you know you're Buddhist and everything, but you eat meat? He's like, You have we eat nothing but fat. We live at the top of a freaking mountain. Yeah, we need so many calories.
+
+[17:03] And carrot after climbing Everstone. No, no. Pound yak and yak meat, yak fat, yak butter, and yak milk. I was like, that makes total sense. Yeah, that makes total sense to me.
+
+[17:14] So, did you get to go hunting when you were in Switzerland or no? Yeah, the guy, so the guy that I worked with that I did my apprenticeship under was the Jaegermeister of the Valley. So he owned this hotel and butcher property. By the way, people that means hunt hunting master and not the liqueur. The liquor master we got to drink.
+
+[17:29] No. So if you wanted to shoot an animal in our valley, you had to go to Bjerger and ask him if there was any unhealthy animals. Could you hunt it? Where should I do it? And after you shot the animal, you'd bring it to our restaurant and our butcher shop, and we'd process it for you.
+
+[17:42] You know, there was tons of different ways we could process, sell it back to you, buy it off you, use it in the restaurant, but we would cure and ferment and make all of our meat out of like you know, two to three hundred wild animals a month. Um the Jaegermeister is literally like a traffic cop for shooting animals. Exactly. And he knows where they're all at, so like every single day he's up super early with binoculars, like just scoping for animals. And he took me uh a couple times with him.
+
+[18:04] I was never able to kill an animal, but like after year three of me like cutting up animals and working my ass off, he's like, Tomorrow we go hunting. And I was like, Holy shit. Oh nice. So like what is he like take the one with the busted horn? It's not so good in the picture.
+
+[18:16] Yeah, but was it like it's like the sick ones. You know, they they don't shoot young ones. Like there's a story here in there where he shot his first elk. It's very hard to find elk up there. And so that's very small herds.
+
+[18:28] And he got an elk from his like all the other Jaegermeisters met and said there's this young elk coming up. You follow it until it's sick and you kill it, and he followed it for 14 years. And he kept every one of it sheds. So every time it shedded every year, he followed it and then he finally shot it stuck in a snowbank. So like it was on its deathbed, and he's like, I think the other Jaeger's like he was actually in Austria across from Switzerland.
+
+[18:50] He's like, I see your elk, Björger, come shoot. So I like that voice, even though they're German floor. I like that. So wait, so here's so they're predominantly hunting older animals then. Yeah.
+
+[19:01] So how's that for cooking? It's it's musky, but I love that. Like I I like game funk, you know. Have you been to uh the Spanish people who do the raised super old cows? Like, you know, Jeffrey Steingarden and Harold McGee were like, Oh, oh, the seven-year-old cows, mah mah ma.
+
+[19:17] I mean, they don't talk like that, but you know what I mean. But like, man, mah mah man. I'm I'm Jeffrey Steingarden, man, man, mah man. Uh but uh the uh no, but I mean, like, you know, it's this it's this thing in Spain, obviously, everyone in America shies away from old meat in general. Um, but I mean, just from a cooking standpoint, so are you I mean, uh do people respond to the different texture well over there?
+
+[19:41] Or like when you're cooking for an American, you can't really translate that kind of a recipe. Totally. Yeah. I mean, like the an old, like a five-year-old Ibex liver, for example, and you would eat liver all that like the wild animal liver is so sought after, you're not serving that to anybody in America. They're like they're taking they're taking a bite of that.
+
+[19:58] I know like uh Americans who won't eat deer liver over a year old. Right. You know what I mean? Like they're like, you know, God, I love deer liver. I know, but you're absolutely right.
+
+[20:06] Like, I mean, you'll you'll you'll see people hunting that lead two-thirds of the animal out there, and you're just like, yeah, in Europe that does not ride. You're never gonna stumble upon like a half-clean carcass. It's like whole animal brought out, everything utilized, everything enjoyed, very, very much so. All right, by the way, do you do any low temperature cooking with with hunting? You ever uh pull out a circulator and bust it down?
+
+[20:24] No, I'm so old school, I don't even know what I'm like a circulator is. Everything I make takes like you know, natural fermentation. I know it's amazing. People do God's work with those things. I just don't know how.
+
+[20:34] Well, I mean, the the interesting thing is I never have access to really old old meat. So I'm curious about it. Like the, you know, I've cooked super old meat um only occasionally, and you only get it from like weird people. And there was this guy in Chicago who used to sell uh that kind of meat, but I since found out that he uh basically not only should he go to prison, he did go to prison for doing like illegal uh animal practices, so I don't buy from him anymore. Probably a good idea.
+
+[21:04] Yeah, you know what I mean. Uh but anyway, so yeah. Well I can hook you up. I'll I I can find old meat for you for sure. I have a big elk hunt coming up this spring that I'm looking to get like a an old bull elk.
+
+[21:14] So if I get one. Are people worried with older elk now about chronic wasting? Or is that people not worry about that anymore? I haven't had anybody worry about it in a long time. So yeah.
+
+[21:24] Nice. I mean, I'll I'll shoot an old elk. See, I get cow tags, right? Every every year. That's where you shoot the female cow, and I usually use those for my meat at home.
+
+[21:31] And that's very often ethically thought they kill the calves, the very young baby elk or a cow. And they like that because it's like the veal of it, and I've never been able to do that yet. To shoot like a six-month-old elk. I always shoot the mom elk. Now, but from an ethics standpoint, is that if you're shooting the young one, it's like, well, he had a bad shot anyway.
+
+[21:49] It's like he was gonna die maybe anyway, so kill him now. Yeah. I think ethically, people are trying to justify. I don't know why I try to get the most amount of meat out of animals that I kill. Uh, is that if you kill their mom, the calf's probably gonna die too.
+
+[22:02] So you just have you have to spend a lot of time like making sure that the the calf that you're about, or excuse me, the the cow that you're about to kill isn't about to, you know, doesn't have a calf. Right. Right. And well, it's also like I think people would be shocked. I looked at the numbers a long time ago, but in the East Coast in hunting areas, like the the percentage of deer that deer now, because they we don't have anything else here, right?
+
+[22:26] But the percentage of deer that are gonna end up on you know in a hunter's plate is extraordinarily high, right? I mean, like I mean, like it's more than you'd think. Oh, here I would imagine. Yeah, like it's a three-day season and like four thousand elk or deer get killed in a day or something like that. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
+
+[22:43] Uh speaking of hunting, so you you have brought something. I did. I'm super happy about this. We I do a lot of bird hunting in Oregon, and we talked about it lately, and I know that you wanted to get back into bird hunting at some point in your life. Um, I've never gotten to do it.
+
+[22:56] I've always wanted to. You've never done it either. No, I've always wanted to. Well, it's not true. In Italy once, in Italy, I went on a BS pheasant hunt.
+
+[23:05] It was it was they're fake. It's fake. Planted pheasants and bird dogs. Yeah, it's fake. Yeah.
+
+[23:10] I didn't feel so good about it. I ate the bird. It's delicious meat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:15] You know, you know, but you know, it's not hunting, right? No, it's it's it's more, I think it's more for training the dogs and then getting the the rifle ready to or like your shotgun good at shooting. I I utilize it once a year. Yeah, right at the beginning I try to tune my dogs up. This dog in Italy was like so stupid too.
+
+[23:31] It was the dumbest. It was like it was like at the very beginning of the season, and we weren't like their real customers, and so they were testing out like their new dog on us. And so Nastasia, this people are gonna like call this is how this works, though, people. They they take and they just they disorient the pheasant so that it doesn't immediately take off, right? Wow, that is really and then they put it in a bush.
+
+[23:53] You know what bush it's in, right? Well, in this scenario, they were shooting it for something, like you know, and then and then the then they let go of the dog and the dog's just sitting there scratching its ear. No. And they're like, uh Hey, a fightal. You know, and they're like, uh and like I don't know what they call dogs.
+
+[24:14] And uh it's when we were shooting a uh we were shooting a piece on uh ancient um ancient cooking techniques, and they wanted us to actually go get the animals even though it was Roman, even though the Romans actually would have raised their pheasants in captivity and just broken their necks and not there wouldn't be all this like you know, buckshot. Yeah, not a lot of shotguns in Roman era, right? Not too many. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, and you know, it I doubt the average Roman was sitting there like, you know, hurling rocks at pheasants to try to get yeah.
+
+[24:42] I mean, like, you know, this is a sophisticated group of people, and they, you know, they had, you know, they raised pheasants, and they you know, they definitely, I'm sure the Romans, if they were gonna train their dogs, would have done a better job. Catch the pheasant. Yeah, and so like they they started chucking things towards the bush to get the dog to look at the bush. That's horrible. It's so depressing.
+
+[25:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then finally, you know, uh, we're sitting there and we're like, oh, and then it takes off. It was a good bird, tasted good, although I forget you're gonna have to so what do you have here? Show me the bird you had you brought in. Yeah, I got you a chucker, and this is a true wild Oregon chucker, not so that these when you shoot these, they're up on the rim rock way above like the rivers, like the John Day.
+
+[25:18] This one came off of the John Day, and they're um non-native to Oregon, but they're the most amazing game birds. So they called so they're invasive? Uh they're not invasive. They plant them for they planted them for game birds, you know, 20 years, 30 years ago. And now they've just done amazing.
+
+[25:32] And so how do they taste relative to like uh so the size here, they're bigger than a pigeon, a squab they're squabish size. They're squabbish, slightly larger. They're about you know a little bit smaller than a good grouse or a rough grouse. Um, but they are very plentiful and they're amazing. They live up in the sagebrush, and so they eat a lot of sage, and so their flavor picks up like that real wild sage.
+
+[25:56] Pass it over? Yep. But yeah, they're they're super fun, and they're like one of the hardest game birds to shoot. Like they your dog will point them maybe sometimes a half a mile out, and uh, you know, you'll you'll get up on your dog and you'll know which direction they're gonna fly, and twenty to thirty of them are flush, and you'll miss all of them. And then, you know, one out of ten you'll probably hit.
+
+[26:15] Okay, so I'm looking at this bird here. I'm terrible at plucking birds, by the way. Yeah. I'm just terrible at the big time to start. Yeah, but you should we we're not gonna pluck this right now, are we?
+
+[26:23] Like, so on a game bird, right? So I know like I know like on like uh I've done pheasant not just in that time in Italy, but in France. You know, you go to France and you could buy pheasant on the you know, on the feather or whatever they call it, feathered uh in the you know GBA shops, you know what I mean? Or and uh you go there, and once those feathers set, man, plucking is a nightmare. Brutal.
+
+[26:45] Is this gonna be a similar situation? You know, Chucker, like those desert birds, chucker, quail, grouse, and all the ones that have more fat live in a burlier from hot to cold climate are much easier to pluck than pheasants. Pheasants are the most difficult bird to pluck in the whole world. Very s like they're just horribly weak to have. Oh, yeah.
+
+[27:00] I ruined the skin. Totally. Yeah, depending on that one looks like we shot it pretty good. So I don't see many bullet holes in there. Where is it?
+
+[27:06] Where is it shot? It looks like it's like in the neck and the wing right there. And that could have been a runner. Like I could have I could have winged it, which is ideal, and then the dog grabs it and brings it to you. But yeah, you know.
+
+[27:15] Now, do you don't hang these things until they start stinking? You're not one of those kind of guys. This is why I brought you this one. Uh I'm not. I'm usually not, but I was hunting with this guy and we had like one of those great days where we each got like our limit, which is fifteen of those birds in a day.
+
+[27:28] It was an amazing, amazing day. And he told me that he enjoys the flavor of freezing them whole with the guts in them. And so that's what we got here. I have three of them that I have a lot of things. It's two cool in my light.
+
+[27:38] And there's a ch so all the like this is how he does it, and he loves the flavor more. So he doesn't dress it out. Doesn't dress it. So he does draw it before he before he cooks it. Yeah.
+
+[27:59] Before he cooks it do that for sure. So it's not like it's not like uh like uh remember that remember that uh woodcock we had? Oh, that people hang with the guts in and stuff. It was the most disgusting I I liked it, I liked eating it, but for Nastasia watching her face was the most disgusting ate it, this stuff was flying on my face too. It was disgusting.
+
+[28:25] So when you're hunting a small bird, right? The flavor probably changes a lot depending on what you puncture, right? Yeah, totally the the the biggest flavor I always say about like the grouse is the best, you know. Grouse live in the forest. The sagebrush, excuse me, so like you know, uh chuckers and other desert Hungarian partridge live in the sage.
+
+[28:43] They pretty much have one diet. But a grouse, like a mountain grouse in the spring eats berries, and then once it gets into chloe later in the fall, it eats like rose hip and gooseberry, and then in the midwinter it eats pine. It's like pure pine lives up pine and juniper berries. And that's the biggest flavor difference because you can see it when you open up that bird, you open up its crop right here, you'll see what it's been eating. So this one should be full of sage and seed.
+
+[29:05] What do you do? You cut here and clean out, and then you do the triangle by the butt and rip the stuff out? Just like a smaller version of a chicken? Absolutely. 100% exactly, just like that.
+
+[29:13] Yeah. Beautiful. All right. Well, we'll post some pictures. It looks like you got clipped on the back a little bit.
+
+[29:19] There it goes. Yeah, maybe that's where it was at. But I, you know, then again, I haven't ever I've never frozen a full bird and ate it myself. So it'll be a good one. Yeah, we'll we'll give some.
+
+[29:28] And luckily, this is uh you know, a serving size for one, so my kids are just vegetarian, won't have to worry about it. Well, thanks so much. Of course, yeah. This is awesome. I've never been no one's ever brought a uh a whole bird on the feather to uh to cooking issues before.
+
+[29:45] So uh I guess we should answer some high tech Dave, we got anything. Yeah, you want to take a call? Yeah, as many as we got. We got some caller, you're on the air. What do you got?
+
+[29:54] Hi, Dave, this is Colton from Vale, Colorado. How are you doing? Doing well. How are you guys? All right.
+
+[29:59] Um, so first of all, uh big fan of the show and big fan of liquid intelligence. I actually use that book a lot more in the kitchen than I do for cocktails. But anyway, great book. Thank you. Um I got a couple questions.
+
+[30:14] First one is on Ultra Text. Okay. Um why are you using Tex and not Spurse, by the way? I'm sorry? Why are you using Tex and not Spurse?
+
+[30:26] Um it's just what we have at the restaurant I work at. All right, go ahead. But anyway, um, we make a spinach puree at the restaurant, and we've been having trouble keeping it green for more than a day. Um what he usually does and what usually works for stuff like that is pureeing the spinach, the blanched and shock spinach with a little bit of ascorbic acid, um ultratex, and a touch of like some neutral cooking oil. Um but I don't after all the research that I've done, I can't find a reason why that would work.
+
+[31:03] Um do you have any thoughts on that? Any advice? No, I don't. I'll say this. So Ultratex for uh by the way, I would switch to Spurs.
+
+[31:11] Uh but like U Ultra Tex is a um a precooked uh uh starch, right? So you know, so what it has the ability to do that a regular starch wouldn't have the ability to do is absorb liquid. So basically what you're doing is just um you're just uh sequestering some of the liquid in with the starch. So maybe that's helping you out a little bit. It's also gonna help uh run out on the puree.
+
+[31:40] So I don't know if it's gonna help with the greening, but it's gonna help uh with that gross runoff that spinach puree has. You know what I'm talking about? You all know what I'm talking about, right? That's why you squeeze it so hard. Yeah, yeah, it's why you squeeze the ever loving hell out of it.
+
+[31:54] Uh and that's and that squeeze water also is an ugly color typically in my experience. Um the reason I switched to Spurse is um Spurse is what's called it's the s same product as uh as Ultratext, but it's pre-agglomerated, so it's like uh it it it looks more like uh it looks more like uh like bisquick or something. It dissolves easier. Uh not that you're gonna have that much problem with clumping in spinach puree, but if you were to throw it in pure water, it would. Uh ascorbic acid is gonna prevent uh any enzymatic action, but the thing you have to worry about with acids is too much acid and you'll start destabilizing the chlorophyll.
+
+[32:37] Uh but I don't know I don't know uh Elias, you got any good keeping spinach puree tricks old school? Yeah, I just yeah, I I puree it in a blender to keep it really, really cold with ice. Yeah, keep it spinning. So I just squeeze it, then like if I do a spinach puree, just blanch it, instantly shock it, squeeze the hell out of the water, add the cooked shallots, puree it just barely in a Vitamix and then put it instantly on ice. Yeah, just keeping it cold.
+
+[33:01] I think the key for me, the key is to squeezing. Yeah, get the water out. Yeah. And like I'm talking like do you do the towel thing? You got it.
+
+[33:11] Yeah. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, you put it in the towel and then you twist the towel and twist it and twist it. Yeah. Twist it. Toward show and style.
+
+[33:19] Yeah, yeah. And it and it just, you know, all that liquid comes out. Yeah, so I don't know. Maybe like uh do you get a lot of uh if you squeeze the hell out of it, you're still getting a lot of sineresis, a lot of liquid coming out of it? Uh no, it's pretty yeah, sometimes you can squeeze it so hard, at least for the blender, you have to add a little bit of water.
+
+[33:33] Yeah. Uh so but you you find that uh your chef's recipe is working for you or not working for you. You just want to know the mechanism. Yeah, I mean I I just kind of wanted to prove them right or prove them wrong. I mean, the the best way to prove the best way to prove something right or something wrong is offline at home, make it a different way, keep it for however long and bring it in and be like, hey chef, I'm I made this, what do you think?
+
+[34:00] And then see what they see what they say. I mean, the worst way to do it is to change the way it's done on the line. Yeah. That's the absolute worst thing you can do. Go time and like uh Yeah, but like, you know, any I'm just gonna go ahead and and and say say I'm gonna say this and see Elias what you think is that if you do something on your own time with your own product and it's good and you bring it in and your chef doesn't have doesn't won't respect that and take a look at it, maybe you should be working for a different chef.
+
+[34:29] Yeah, absolutely. Uh it's gotta be a creative conglomerate. You know, it's like fun. I love when anybody comes in. I mean I mean I make what 7,000 pounds of sausage a day and I still listen to people salami about the technique that I use.
+
+[34:40] If they have an idea of how to make it more uniform, let's talk. Right here. Especially if someone proves it. Like, you know, I'll take any dogma that I'm running down for years, you you show me that that there's a better way, I will adopt it immediately. Absolutely.
+
+[34:51] And I think that's a sign of uh I mean in in any field, that's a sign of intelligence. You know what I mean? Uh I think it's you know, it becomes problematic when if someone goes so hard on dogma, especially like in print and on TV, that it becomes hard for them to change. But that's when you you can tell if someone's a real, like, you know, if they're really hardcore about what they do and not just about being who they are. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:17] Absolutely. Then they'll they'll change. So anyway, let don't do some experiments and shoot us back and t say what you know, tell us what you find out. Dave, you got any uh spinach freaks on the uh on the chat room. Don't even know what's going on.
+
+[35:28] Let me check and get back to you. Speaking of uh like uh tips and tricks, uh I that I we had a walnut question in a couple of weeks ago about how to get easily get the skin, the tannic skin off of a walnut. Now you can buy non-tannic walnuts, I don't know where they get them. Harold McGee gets good ones. I haven't spoken to him yet uh whether he has any tips.
+
+[35:46] But I said I was gonna talk to a guy whose grandpa was a walnut farmer, but it turns out he doesn't grow walnuts, he only grows almonds or almonds as he calls it. Almonds. Almonds. And uh it's unfortunate because he would have had the this guy uh like you know, 60 years ago was in an airplane accident. He was flying, he lost his leg and one eye.
+
+[36:04] Whoa. Yeah, yeah, and he's like still like an almond farmer. So I figured if anyone knew how to do it, but you know, it's easy to get the skin, not easy, it's a pain in the butt, but it's technically easy to get the skins off of an almond. But uh walnuts, I don't know. Can you blanch a walnut?
+
+[36:18] Yeah, blanch them. And do the towel rub? Yeah, blanch them, then re-roast them and then chop them and then do the the seep and try to get the skin through the course seep is the way I do it. And it's still not like a perfectly I don't forget whether this person wanted whole halves. I mean, that's it.
+
+[36:33] The good thing about an almond is you can get the skin off of it and still have it be in beautiful shape. Beautiful shape. Yeah. You know what I mean? Uh but the good thing about nuts that I think people, as long as you don't soak the beejesus out of them uh such that you've actually leaching a bunch of flavor out of them, they can take a good number of like get it wet, get it dry, get it wet, get it dry.
+
+[36:54] I mean, that they're pretty. You know what I mean? Especially you gotta trade that off with a wallet, like if you hate how a tannic armament or you know, all or a walnut does your tongue and makes it all fucked up blanch it for a second then roast it at least you'll get all that bitters out there and the tan right because all that stuff is is A on the outside and B water soluble that's a good tip right there. Look at that for a sausage maker I know way around a nice well uh so do you do that to the do you do the walnut and sausage thing? I do it in pate like once or twice a year.
+
+[37:19] Yeah like I'll make a uh a walnut pate for sure with no cello and whatnot. I think they're delicious, especially with game birds. When you serve a pate like what do you think about remember like five or six years ago or maybe even longer now ten years ago the like the big thing not on pate was go to foie gras straight right the big chunk now I have to say are you a hot or a cold if you could choose only one would you choose hot or cold? Foie gras? Yeah.
+
+[37:42] That's a tough one huh I'm gonna go cold because I can have it in more places. 99 out of a hundred chefs do that but I just love hot so much. Yeah anyway what about you stuff? Cold Samantha? I like cold too.
+
+[37:55] 99 out of a hundred I'm like I actually really like the old school like just quick search like lightly war lightly warm in the middle like maybe some like you know maybe some you know peach. Yeah crunchy salt or something yeah anyway. So you want to take a quick break? Well one second. So like one thing that makes me upset is like when you don't serve the when you don't serve it with any form of e like no no acidic accompaniment and no crunchy starch.
+
+[38:25] I need an acidic accompaniment and I need a crunchy starch. Pate as well like I want give me some sort of bread. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
+
+[38:31] Especially like to, but like, have you seen if you notice this where like someone will give you a big plate of of like either pate or something? And then nothing, nothing to break up the the the uncuousness. Absolutely. No. Yeah.
+
+[38:42] You gotta have crunchy bread or good bread or baguette for a pate. An old school French chef shall remain nameless. It was Alain Sayac. Uh he I was I once he they used to do a country pate at the French Culinary Institute. I like country pate, it's like the next guy.
+
+[38:57] And they would put the little cornichant, right? Which I kind of like corny sham. I'm gonna set to go say, I'm gonna say I kind of like cornichant. They're not my favorite pickle. I mean, uh the texture is bad, right?
+
+[39:08] Cornychan. The texture is bad. Yeah, they they're they're a good crunch, but there's better crunches out there. Yeah, much better crunches. I mean, the cucumber didn't want to be murdered at that age.
+
+[39:16] It wanted to grow bigger. Yeah, it wanted to be more of a pickle. It's like it's like the baby corn is is garbage. I mean, like I like that's that's a true fact. Yeah, I like the way they look kind of like theoretic, but it's garbage.
+
+[39:26] It's a garbage product. It's a garbage product. Yeah, it's a garbage product. Uh so the what do you think, Stas? You hate that stuff, right?
+
+[39:32] Hey baby corn. So uh Samantha? I agree. Dave? Yeah, not a fan.
+
+[39:37] Yeah, okay. Stop stop putting those things in cans. First of all, like what do they where do they get I mean like that's true? Maybe a really good baby corn is delicious, but I've never had that. I ripped one right off of a stock once, and I was like, this is garbage.
+
+[39:48] And I boiled it. I was like, anyway, but so that that's not the point. That's not the point. Uh so I was like, hey, chef, uh, you know what would be good? And he serves it with bread because come on, he's an old school French guy.
+
+[39:58] I was like, I really like like a coarse grain mustard with my country pate. He's like American. And walked away. Yeah. That's what he said.
+
+[40:10] I was like, what? Get out of here. It's not a good thing. Mustard's good. Yeah.
+
+[40:12] Come on. I just you just gotta you you always you have to remember you just gotta make people happy. If they wanted freaking ketchup on it, and that's the way that they enjoyed my pate. More too, yeah. Right, but I'm not gonna do it.
+
+[40:22] I'm not gonna touch the stuff. But I mean, like, you know, like would don't you think that don't you think that a coarse grained mustard is a better acidic slash pungent accompaniment to a country pate than a freaking corny show no matter how French it is? Absolutely. They're uh uh uh whole whole grain mustards on every charcuterie board that I sell at every one of my places no matter what. Thank you.
+
+[40:40] Thank God. It's just the pr it's perfect. It goes with everything. It's bright, it tastes good. All right, we'll take a break.
+
+[40:45] We'll come back with more uh Lias Cairo, more cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous Vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that Sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new Sous vide tool from Chef Steps, you can do so much more.
+
+[41:14] Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork, get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it. Browse Chef Steps' amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect dunness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[41:50] For more information and to order yours now, visit Chef Steps.com slash J O U L E. Trooper, premium British beer, handcrafted by Robinson's brewery in Cheshire, England, and created by Iron Maiden. That's what we're gonna be having with our lunch today. I mean, like, Nastasi, where did this beer come from? I have no idea.
+
+[42:15] You just brought it. It was like this is for Dave. Alright, so I'll give you some props if you can tell me why Iron Maiden is a particularly for someone like me, uh, an important metal band. Bass. Why?
+
+[42:27] I don't know. Man played with three fingers. He only had three fingers? No. He played with in other words, like the typical bass player plays with two fingers.
+
+[42:36] He was like, What's wrong with you? You know what I mean? How do you not? What are you doing all day not knowing that? What are you doing?
+
+[42:44] Fail. Dave, what do you think about it? As a music guy, what are you what are your thoughts? Do you ever listen to that stuff? They're great, yeah.
+
+[42:49] Do you like you know like those are the original t-shirts with uh what's his name? Eddie, right? Yeah. Like the they're like fantastically expensive now. Yeah, I'm not surprised.
+
+[42:59] There's like a weird vintage rock tea market. I know. It's crazy. You know, those things were unconscionably expensive at the time they were new. They should go way down in value.
+
+[43:08] That should be the that should be the purchase that you get slapped for later, and you're like, I can't believe I spent $40 on that concert t-shirt. But now you're sitting pretty. Now you're sitting pretty. It's like old programs. It's like I have the original 77 Star Wars program, and apparently that's uh worth something.
+
+[43:21] Uh anyways. Did you spend 40 bucks for that program? No, I spent like I think it might have came with the ticket. There you go. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:28] Like, you know, I was a little young. I don't know. Back then your parents just paid for crap and you didn't know. You know what I mean? Uh so Dave, you want me to do this business before we get back into real stuff?
+
+[43:36] Yes, please. This is what we call people the mid-roll ad. Even though it's coming at the end of the show. It's this is the mid-roll ad. Well, I have no control over that, but you do.
+
+[43:46] Oh. Are we getting back? We're getting back into the state. It's Testy Day. Uh Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you.
+
+[43:56] Janie, Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiasts, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so you can spend less time hunting and gathering, although you'd hate that. Yeah, who doesn't want to hunt and gather? Right.
+
+[44:17] Uh, and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy. It's not really new anymore, Dave. It's like, you know.
+
+[44:31] Anyway. Uh be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks. And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. Great. Nailed it again.
+
+[44:45] Nailed, nailed it. All right, let's do it. Should we do a couple? Let's do it. Call or on the air.
+
+[44:51] Hey Dave, how's it going? This is Jason from Atlanta. How you doing? How's Atlanta? Do it.
+
+[44:55] I'm doing well. I hear it's like eight billion degrees down there. Yeah, you like coming by your hotlanta name properly now. Yeah, people actually live in Atlanta that actually call it Hotlanna. That's just the outsiders.
+
+[45:05] Yeah, well, I am in fact an outsider. Do you not listen to Ludacris if you're actually from Atlanta or do you do that? Well, who doesn't? Oh, there you go. Okay.
+
+[45:13] All right. All right. So what's up? Question about fish sauce. So I'm looking to make my own fish sauce.
+
+[45:18] Um, and I was wondering if there's a reason why traditionally uh oily fish are used, anchovies and sardines. And would it still work uh with pretty much any other kind of fish, maybe even lake fish, perch, trout. Um anything w is there a limitation as to what fish you should and shouldn't use. Okay. So I'm gonna weigh in for a second, and I'm sure Elias has some stuff to say about this, you know, with the gr the Greekness will come in at a certain point.
+
+[45:46] So uh here's the thing like typically fish sauce is made with like fish that you gather kind of in abundance and you aren't cooking as a whole kind of a a fish, and so like a you gather lots of these oily fish, like you get lots of mackerel, you get lots of sardines, you get lots of anchovies. Right. Uh and so I think that's like one of the reasons, but they're classic ones that are made with squid and that's not oily, uh made with the guts. Um you get ones that are made uh I mean typically, you know, most traditional recipes are built around a less waste phenomenon. And so like anything that you would like stake out or cook, you wouldn't turn into a uh a a fish sauce.
+
+[46:26] Um, and and there are some fish sauces, like the famous uh what the garum, which is the Roman one, changed a lot depending on what grade you were buying and what era of the Roman Empire you're dealing with, but like one of the high grades at a certain time was all guts. So it's just you know, mackerel guts. Do you got any experience making fish? You ever make fish sauce? I never made fish sauce, no.
+
+[46:45] You should make it stuff's delicious. Stinky delicious. Yeah, but I love it, so I should make it. I can't believe it haven't made it. Yeah.
+
+[46:50] But the bottom line is yes, it should work with pretty much any fish. Yes, I would say it would work with a lot of fish. Uh there are some people who believe, and I've never done the test, that uh the smaller fish have a good uh gut to meat ratio, and that it's the it's the it's the guts that are like kick starting all of that like stuff that's going on. I've heard people say that. Do I have any experience?
+
+[47:16] I don't. That makes sense. Okay. And w any any idea of using um I guess more specifically to the Shiri uh squid based fish sauce, if using frozen squid uh would be a problem. I think it should not be a problem, but most of the most of the squid that I buy that's frozen is cleaned already.
+
+[47:38] Do you have a source of you right? Yeah. Yeah you might be right. I mean like the best thing to do is if you get squid is like clean them, scrape all the cleaning stuff into the bucket to make your fish sauce and then you know do your do your whatever you're doing with the are you a fan uh Elias of turning the squid inside out before you stuff it where you take the you take the mantle and you flip it inside out so that when it cooks it like squeezes into the stuffing. I've never done that.
+
+[48:02] I stuff a lot of squid I always pipe it into the squid. Right. Well this old French guy uh he used to like before he he would do that but before he'd do it he would turn it inside out and he said he would get a tighter that's a good idea. Yeah. I can't wait to try that.
+
+[48:15] Yeah give us a let me know. It's a chef Didier we used to at uh I forget his last name. French guy. Anyway uh yeah but so but listen let us know what's going on. I'll give the um fish sauce a try using some uh some fish I can catch and uh by the way I'm with you on the foie gras hot all the way.
+
+[48:32] There you go. Someone someone's got to agree with me at some point. All right thanks. Uh let's know how the fish sauce goes. Um do you how do you start the fermentation on a fish sauce?
+
+[48:41] Just friggin' salt. Just salt and just leave it in there. No mother, nothing just it just ferments on its own naturally it gets crazy. I mean that's uh we look I we started making it once for the same thing I was talking about. We were in Italy we were doing the Roman thing and we just hacked them up and then like put salt in.
+
+[48:55] Yeah. Uh and no uh but uh I've never like made it through from beginning to end, but there's a bunch of people now who have done it and made some really high kind of grade uh high grade fish sauce. I love fish sauce. You know what I mean? Fish sauce is and I'm gonna be using a lot more of it now because the kids are pescatarian now.
+
+[49:13] Oh, so see how long this lasts, right? Take the bird, maybe they'll want some bird. I'm gonna eat the whole bird. But kids aren't, you know what? Here's the thing like I feel that like if you make that choice, I'm like, hey, you made that choice.
+
+[49:25] It's true. That's your choice. Yeah, I went vegetarian for a while for a skateboard. My skateboard broke in Salt Lake and I didn't have any money. And my bud I ate so much meat being Greek, and they're like, if you go a week without eating meat, we'll uh buy a skateboard.
+
+[49:38] And so I like took the bet, and then I got a girlfriend who's vegetarian in that week, and I was vegetarian for like three months. Wow. It's pretty impressive. Wow. So then as soon as that relationship ended, back to the meat.
+
+[49:49] Lamb rib. Was it part of the was that part of the reason the real relationship ended, or no? No, she just didn't like me anymore. Wow. Well, because you're spending too much time skateboarding.
+
+[49:59] Exactly. Yeah, young. So what's that dish? What's that Greek dish? They uh spit roast lamb intestines where you wrap all the intestines around the spit and then you like cook it like a big party food.
+
+[50:08] What's that called again? Yeah, I don't know what it's called, but yeah, it's delicious. Absolutely. You ever make that stuff? Yeah, well, I've make it with goat, yeah, where we restuff the, we take out the goat carcass, we debone it, then we rest we chop up the intestines with the liver, the heart, and the kidney, quickly saute the season that, and then put it inside of the wrapped goat and then fire roast the whole thing.
+
+[50:25] That's delicious. Well, here's a question for a couple questions. One, I noticed in your book, I know Nastasia noticed this. I I think I bookmarked the page. Your porchetta is not what we would call a porchetta, it's more of like a whole Yeah.
+
+[50:37] That's what I call a porchetta. Yeah, looked good. You see that stuff? It's like stuff with like so uh, you know, I'm obsessed with this Colombian dish, but instead of a meat stuffing, it's meat and rice stuffing. That's so good.
+
+[50:47] Yeah. Yeah. Crispy, you know, crispy pork skin plus anything, basically. Yeah. Win.
+
+[50:52] Yeah, absolutely. Win. Yeah, and that's the big challenge about a porchetta is like you anybody can stuff a pork, but getting the skin perfectly crisped up, and there's a million tricks to that. Oh, are you are you what do you believe? Are you a believer?
+
+[51:02] Do you baking soda it? No. Do you prick it? I prick it and then blanch it. So I can't.
+
+[51:06] So you do the branch and then throw hot water over it. Plate will blanch. Larry pour over, not a dip, pour over. Pour over. If I had a pot big enough, I would love to dip it.
+
+[51:14] Nothing in the water. Nothing in the water. And then I salt the shit out of it and then leave it overnight in salt and then uh start with a low temperature. Right. And then when it gets to 90 degrees, I crank my oven all the way up until it's just about on fire, and then that turns into a little tironis.
+
+[51:28] And it does the puff out. It drops up and it gets all the holes and all the grease, cooks the skin and it's crunchy, and then you can just slice it and it's I love it. Hey Dave, we gotta go before we do. Chat room is demanding an update on the spinzall that you promised. We have this, we have the update.
+
+[51:44] You know, we uh I'm sending uh we we have the picture of the first off tooling, this is the centrifuge that I'm working on a lot. So uh we have uh the uh a video of it of uh the first off tooling one running, the one that we took to Scotland, and we're gonna send that out, and then we'll probably send out a uh more uh substantive one next week, and then after I get back from China, we will send out another one. Uh but you know that's probably the ones we're gonna definitely send out before the um ship date happens. Um we didn't get to uh we had a question on uh adding silver powder to a cocktail. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea.
+
+[52:23] Do you know that you ever you know colour silver? You guys heard of colour silver? So people take colloidal silver, uh, and this is not the same thing, but they they some people think it has a health thing, but if you drink too much of it, you turn blue permanently. Like the silver gets into your skin. Generally not a good look.
+
+[52:39] Bruised up. Uh you know, you look like you remember that in Appala in Appalachia, there were these uh there was this group of people that uh didn't have that like turned they were blue naturally, like they had some sort of like genetic thing with them. So you look and you end up looking kind of like that, which is kind of kind of messed up. Yeah. Uh and so we gotta go.
+
+[52:57] All right, Wes. Next week I'll talk to you about deep fryers and what deep fryer I use and how to choose a deep fryer and all that good stuff. Uh, you know, choose a deep fryer wisely. Um someday maybe I should invent. Someone wanted me to invent, like work on a new oven after this Benzole, but I think like a really good, I'm not gonna do this for but a really good deep fryer that that like a regular person could use.
+
+[53:16] In your house. In your house. Because like a real deep fryer is like so much better than the one you get in your house. Yeah. Make like what like the home version of a browster, like the in the West Coast.
+
+[53:28] We have those like deep fried chicken places where it's a pressure deep fryer. You know, you cook the hood and throw the chicken in. Yeah, I met the guy, I think did he die? He's still alive. Anyway, speaking of died, the guy who invented G.I.
+
+[53:38] Joe died. We could talk more about that later. Uh anything else next week? What we'll talk about next week. Oh, next week we have Richard Blaze coming on.
+
+[53:45] So in any sort of Richard Blaze questions you have, uh, you can uh dial in. Thanks for coming. Thanks, guys. Thanks so much for showing up. I had a good time.
+
+[53:52] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radionetwork.org.
+
+[54:20] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[54:41] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products.
+
+[55:22] Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill dot com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:58] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammerlope.
+
+[1:24] We got Dave in the booth. Dave. What up? Today we got special guest plus Entourage. Plus Entourage.
+
+[1:30] Richard Blaze. Richard Blaze. I like the soft golf clap. That's usually the applause level idea. I also thought I thought I was gonna be like the dynamic one, but that open is just that's all I got.
+
+[1:43] It's in it's amazing. It's like it's like literally like I could come in here uh off of a bike or like you know, you could nostasi could wake me up from a sleep and on. Yeah, my kids make me do it every once in a while. Uh you crushed it. Like I don't know if I can even like go on from that point.
+
+[1:58] Well, like I say, from here all it's all uh, you know, as Trump would say, low energy Dave from here on uh so uh wait we got so let's uh let's just That was my trombone, by the way. Yeah, nice. No, you play beautifully he played beautifully. Thank you. Uh you gotta go bass trombone.
+
+[2:16] The bass trombone is not a used enough instrument. It's it's not. Um you know I'm more of a banjo ukulele guy, though. We're getting right into like I tried to learn banjo once, failed miserably. Yeah, I never could figure it out.
+
+[2:28] Um and I hear the ukulele is really where you need to go if you're learning a stringed instrument. You mean because it's just got one. Well, and it's all it's tuned to an open chord. Right. So you can just I mean that's why Tiny Tim, not a musical genius, was able to cut some popular records, you know, on the on the ukulele.
+
+[2:44] This is true. This is true. But you know, there is a uk there is a ukulele resur every couple of years or every couple of decades, I guess, at this point in my life, I feel there's a ukulele resurgence. Yeah. You know?
+
+[2:53] Maybe that I fell into that. Maybe that it was. It was like I just felt it in the air. Like I'm yeah, I remember as a small child. I remember Tiny Tim, you know, the horrible crazy Nastasia's probably caught him just wrong.
+
+[3:04] Doesn't remember him at all. Just wrong. Got married on Johnny Carson, I believe. Oh, really? I think so.
+
+[3:10] Oh. I don't think it lasted. I thought he was a wrestler. No, no, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:16] It would be a good name for a wrestler. Yeah. If he was massive. Yeah. What what do you think about bagpipes?
+
+[3:20] I'm trying to learn the bagpipes. Well, I can't believe you just said that. Because I was gonna ask you, bagpipes or didrido? Oh, bagpipes. Bagpipes.
+
+[3:26] Uh here's why. Here's why. Okay. Bagpipes, bagpipes are not the kind of instrument that you ever want to hear recorded. It like needs to be live.
+
+[3:35] It is a martial instrument. It's meant to like scramble eggs the inside of your body. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's portable, loud as you know, loud as hell.
+
+[3:46] You know. Sometimes, just for inspiration, if I'm on a long run, I will cue up like the Scottish March. Really? Yeah. I queue up long way to the top if you want to rock and roll.
+
+[3:54] It's like Braveheart. You know, it's like for me. It's just you uh you have Braveheart was a good movie. It w I yeah, I don't remember much of it, but I remember I felt inspired by it. So I uh do we have ever said this on Aaronastasia?
+
+[4:04] Like I always thought it was like a missed. So the end of Braveheart, so uh uh Mel Gibson is Wallace, right? And so at the end of it, you know, he's a real he's not like a noble person, he's like a knight, whatever, relatively common, or he's being executed at the end because he's given up, right? And so at the end, they're cutting his nuts off, and right before they cut his nuts off, he goes, Free um like that. And I always thought what a great like ad campaign they could have done if he had just said anything else.
+
+[4:31] Pepsi! That's the last thing. There you go. Wow. Well done.
+
+[4:36] Wow, see? I haven't seen this since it came out. There you go. So who else we got in the room? Who'd you bring with you?
+
+[4:43] Let's uh let's say hello to the entourage in case I pepper them with questions or ask them what they like to eat. Oh, okay, I'll go around the room. So Meredith Sidman. Publicist, extraordinaire. Yeah?
+
+[4:52] And in relation to Josh Sidman from uh uh Westchester, New York? No, but I'm from Western. All right, nice. All right. Leah!
+
+[5:01] Publicist extraordinaire. Yeah? So this is like big flak attack we got going on. I'm I'm rolling deep because it's Brooklyn, and I felt like to kind of up my street cred, I needed to come in with a big crew. It's gotta roll heavy.
+
+[5:12] Gotta roll heavy. And then we just met. Joyce. How do you guys hello? Hello.
+
+[5:17] Nice. So also extraordinaire. I mean, we should not leave that out. Right. I just want to make sure everyone's extraordinary.
+
+[5:22] He just doesn't think so much of you, Joyce. Yeah, that's the issue. So the reason you're uh you're over here in our fine uh our fine area in Brooklyn is you got a new book coming out in like is it this month or next month? It's today. No way.
+
+[5:29] This is the launch. Yeah, like this is my first appearance. No. I thought you were on the Today Show. Okay, I was on the Today Show.
+
+[5:40] This is my first audio appearance. First audio appearance. How was the today's show? How was that like? It was amazing.
+
+[5:45] You know, a couple years ago, I spilt liquid nitrogen on Kathy Lee's feet and was banned from the Today Show for three years. Really? So they were amazing, though. They had some Pinot Grigio working, and we did this little snap pea salad. Yeah.
+
+[6:01] She likes she likes snap peas. She likes Pinot Grigio. You know she likes the Pinot Grigio. It was amazing. She had it, I mean they were they were both stunning.
+
+[6:07] Yeah. Yeah. It was actually a really good segment. I was like, I did that show once. Yeah.
+
+[6:11] On uh Halloween, right after Hurricane uh Sandy, and I was just I mean, everyone in New York was just so pissed off that I like they were like that guy's never coming back to this show, right? Right. And Nastasia has been waiting for years because she like literally like like loves holding Kathy Lee. Love them. I love them too.
+
+[6:32] I'm an old school Regis and Kathy Lee guy back in the day. I love Regis. So um my first segment I ever did with Regis, right? We're doing the segment we're outside. It's outside summer grilling with Regis, right?
+
+[6:43] And he was the first time we ever met many years ago. And he's like, All right, so I'm here with Jeff and we're cooking, and he's like keeps calling me Jeff, but in my head, because I have an ego, I'm like, he's calling me Chef, just go with it. And then like all the way through about seven times at the end, he's like, and uh, that was Jeff cooking up some amazing burgers. We'll see it in a minute. But it's Regis Philbin.
+
+[7:02] So I'm like, that's okay. He can call me whatever he wants. Whatever the hell he wants. Exactly. Whatever the hell he wants.
+
+[7:06] Yeah, Regis. Good old days. I used to watch all of the daytime TV. Like when I first got out of college. So they were on back then in the early 90s, and I would do only these three things.
+
+[7:17] I would watch daytime TV, I would Bondo my Pontiac, and I would uh deep fry uh peppers in uh in my little deep fryer. And that was it. Those are only three things I did before my job started. That's amazing. Yeah.
+
+[7:28] My future wife was like, what the hell are you doing? Why am I with you? What is your problem? She had a real job. They were great peppers.
+
+[7:33] They were great peppers. Let's be honest. And the Pontiac was pretty sweet for a couple of years. Yeah. Definitely the cheapest car I ever bought.
+
+[7:39] Yeah, and now it's Seacrest, by the way. What do you mean? Ryan Seacrest? Kelly and Seacrest. But I don't think it's called Kelly and Seacrest.
+
+[7:45] It's Kellyan Ryan. So it did she have a fight with uh what's his name? Something happened with Michael, right? Stray hand? And then like all it was a big then they, you know, it's a big reality show of who's gonna get it.
+
+[7:55] I thought it was gonna be me. Were you in the running? Were you really? No, I was not. No.
+
+[8:00] Do you my mind I was in the running? Have you been on their show? I have. Was there chemistry okay? Oh, yeah.
+
+[8:07] I thought the chemistry was great. They're amazing too, of course. So, but like so something happened. Something happened, who knows? But now it's Ryan Seacrest.
+
+[8:14] All right, so let's talk about your book for a minute. And by the way, call in all of your, as I say, call all of your blaze-related questions in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So this book is called uh So Good, and it's uh 100 recipe. Is it exactly 100 recipes?
+
+[8:29] I did not care. You know what? This book was interesting because it was like we have to like we were really serious about the 100 recipes. Like it was a metric that I had to hit. Like my publisher's here with me, so I have to, you know.
+
+[8:39] But we had it had to be a hundred recipes. And I was like, do sauces count? Do condiments count? No. Really?
+
+[8:45] No, so it's probably over a hundred recipes. Don't tell that to Peterson with his sauce book. The recipe the sauces don't count. That whole cookbook is sauces. It wouldn't even be a book.
+
+[8:53] You couldn't even say there were any recipes. And that's one of the classic books I love for. Oh, but then it would be a book with no recipes, and that would be a really good marketing angle. Really? Do people want to buy books with no recipes?
+
+[9:01] Probably not. All right. Well, probably not. Right. So now I read the uh I read the introduction as well.
+
+[9:06] And so the conceit here is is that people can actually cook this stuff. I mean, the people who listen to this probably are the better off, but you include, and I had this s same issue when I did um, you know, my cocktail book. You include a lot of stuff that the average like Jane and Joe person wouldn't necessarily but you always give away out. I have to. You have to get see, I know where you're going with.
+
+[9:27] Yes, right. So it's like the the one percent uh Richard Blaze fans, who by the way are known as Blazions, just so we can get these. Blazions, fans of Richard Blaze. That's like a definition, but it's a Star Trek thing. I like it.
+
+[9:38] It's like the third, you know, there's three definitions for the third one. Blazions. Nice. Um, you know, some of them wanna see uh they want to see the Searsol. They want to see a l some liquid nitrogen.
+
+[9:47] Yeah. You gotta give it to them. I'll explain. I'm for it. I'm for it.
+
+[9:51] Like here's the thing it's like I'm a believer in, you know, if this is the way you actually do it, and you're a real live human being, right? Yeah, then just do it that way. And then tell people, look, I don't expect you to do it. And if you were at somebody else's house and you had to cook something, you wouldn't be like, There's no liquid nitrogen, I'm freaking out of here. Exactly.
+
+[10:09] Exactly, right. Yeah. So there should be some like it so it is. So every once in a while there's a tank of liquid nitrogen in my basement. When I say every once in a while, I mean all all the time.
+
+[10:18] Yeah. Where do you live? Where do you live? I live a little north of San Diego, Del Mar, California. Right.
+
+[10:22] Yeah, I'm gonna be in San Diego pretty soon and stop by the restaurant. Oh my gosh, I mean uh the my staff would freak out if you showed up. Yeah, I'm gonna I'll be there. I have to do some sort of uh like thing for for uh a liquor company. You're mythical to my staff.
+
+[10:33] Like this you know how much streak like how much like cred I'm gonna get in my kitchen because I'm on the show. This guy is good at uh this guy's just in the heat year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Buttering. It's not, it's not I yeah, I'm I mean buttering it up coast to coast both sides but I'm also being honest.
+
+[10:48] Oh well I appreciate it so one thing I want to talk to you about and I I noticed in in in this and uh it's something I think it doesn't get talked and it's before we talk about the book in general or any questions um you ever notice how chefs tend to like find an ingredient that they fold into their pantry and it shows up as a highlight a lot I do this all the time and it changes for me every couple of years I change like what that highlight is so I remember Niels Norrin when I was at the FCI you know from you know Okavita and the FCI for a while it was like what does this need? And we were all like ketchup manice. It was always it was nice ketchup manise. That's what this needs ketchup manise. Yes and then like you know but there's always but I noticed and it's something I actually also love and use a lot you love the Calabrian chili oil.
+
+[11:37] I do love the Calabrian chili oil. Yeah. But but with a lot of these things isn't it like the moment you had or like the first moment that you had with that ingredient. Yeah and you're like oh and then so well like full disclosure a friend of mine's Calabrian whenever he goes over there they bring back like you know some of their family stock and he's like this time it's not as good as last time. Right.
+
+[11:58] You know what I mean but like but yeah so like I I have learned to the love it yeah and you the great thing with ingredients like that is yeah you associate them with like a a particular place a particular thing but you get addicted to the certain kind of note especially something like that. So the way you describe it is a fruity heat. Right? Right, but not sweet, but fruity heat. So it's like as an alternative to like the classic thing that all the you know, most of the chefs have been doing for the past five, six years just hit it with sriracha, not panish, but like you know, the the hot cock brand of sriracha.
+
+[12:27] Yeah you know what I mean? Yeah. But it's a more that's a more neutral and doesn't have the oils. Well, how'd you get in how how did you get into the collaborating chili oil and how long have you been into the I I think honestly, and this is uh I I just stumbled upon a jar of it, and it was one of the I it probably was Top Chef or something like that. Where on these shows, you get to carry like ten secret ingredients that are always in your case, and and chili oil was always one of mine.
+
+[12:51] A bottle of ghee was always one of mine, uh, you know, uh some fish things that are like special to you that you know provide something that something's gonna need in a 48 episode competition. Sometime I'm gonna need something that brings some heat to the game, acidity to the game, uh some salt, umami, whatever it is. Um so that's how I found it. And then it was just like, oh, I kind of also just like it in my fridge to like, you know, drizzle over like ranch dressing, because I'm also like I like ranch dressing. Who doesn't?
+
+[13:18] I'm just gonna admit that right here. Like we're at Roberta, so it's um I feel embarrassed a little bit. No, my son Dax, that's the first thing he learned how to make. He didn't want to learn to make anything else. Although, you know, he did make for Jen my wife.
+
+[13:27] He made breakfast in bed first time ever. I'm like, you're 12 years old, about time. What's up, what did he make? What did he make? Uh French toast, you know, classic, like first or something.
+
+[13:35] And I like so I'm sitting there in bed, and I'm like, first of all, I would never tell him this, and I don't think he was like, you know, I would prefer to eat at a table. That's me, but like whatever. But it's it's no, but my wife was floored, she loved it. Yeah, amazing. He did a great job, but having done this when I was a kid, I was like, what does the kitchen look like?
+
+[13:51] Of course, right? And it was a disaster, I'm assuming. Nice. I agree with you with the eating in bed sort of thing. Unless you're at a hotel.
+
+[14:00] Then like who cares about the sheets? Now my bad. Like my favorite thing to do is a hotel chicken wings. Two orders, and then like bathroom towel to wipe down afterwards. You just massage it into the channel.
+
+[14:12] Like that's a secret fact. Like I'm revealing to you. Like I've we've connected. Nice. Well, let's feel me talk to you about the your uh the chicken rest.
+
+[14:17] Let's just go to it. Yeah, well. Before I do that, I I notice also like also we're just having a lot of fun. Don't worry about the book. Like, we're just kicking it.
+
+[14:24] Yeah, no, but like uh this is like so like here's something I do with people's books whenever I get someone's book, right? First thing you gotta read, you gotta read someone's introduction to see where they're coming from, where that particular book is coming from. Get a feel for where they want to go, right? You agree? Sure, yeah.
+
+[14:38] Yeah. Yeah. Then look at a couple of pictures they choose that have nothing to do with a particular recipe to kind of see where their head's at. And so the one that I gravitated to is the picture of like just I assume that whoever you were photographer was like that one, that one, that one. But but cake tester, love it, the cake tester.
+
+[14:56] You got the cake tester, which is like super, you know, I like hey, was he reading glasses? Yeah, those are those are actually my glasses. Like, that's not even just a prop, chef. That's like, those are my glasses. What about like you can't use that one very often?
+
+[15:10] You know what it is? I'm obsessed with this sort of what's in my purse sort of stuff. Right, right. So it's just like just uh throw it out there and take a picture of it. And then people are like, oh wow.
+
+[15:17] He rolls with a cake tester and a pasta cutter. The cake tester is like that's the mark of okay. We okay, we've got the cake test room. Because that's how I test chicken. Yeah.
+
+[15:26] Is that how you test chicken? Yeah, anything, anything like that. And boop, boop. But I feel like is that is is that still going strong, or is that just like show we're showing our age or what? Well, yes, we're showing our age, probably a little bit.
+
+[15:38] But um, no, I kind of like it though, right? It's it's a it's kind of one of those like sh it's a yeah, I'm putting the cake tester in. What is that little pin, Chef? What do you have? Yeah, but this is how we did it.
+
+[15:47] Do you like it? Back in the old days, ten years ago? Right. I mean, t like, here's the other thing, too, is like a lot of people when they're writing stuff, they're like, Oh, stick a thermometer in it. Would you ever stick a thermometer in something?
+
+[15:55] Well, I will I will say that I'm doing a couple projects right now that I'm and this this sort of like you know this already, because you're amazing, right? But like precision is an interesting thing. So like thermometers, I mean I I sous vide things all the time, right? So that's a very precise way to measure something. Right.
+
+[16:13] Right. So yes, exactly, but I rely on it and like my knowledge as a right. You don't need the K tester is what you're saying. Well, no, no, no. Cake tester I use.
+
+[16:21] Okay. So like when I'm deep frying or something like that, the cake tester I use, but I would never shove an instant read into my piece of chicken. Yeah. Well then the juices get all yeah. Yeah, my my you know, my lip and the cake tester are good enough for me.
+
+[16:33] Yeah, and I also I do like like when you're when you're a good cook and you can just touch something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or when you ask a chef, well, when is it done? When it's done. Yeah.
+
+[16:40] Like my favorite answer ever, right? Is like when is it finished? Everyone says you can't know, but it that's not true. You can know. You can know.
+
+[16:47] Like even like something stupid like pancakes, right? If you're if your flame is a little off, you touch the top of the pancake and you're like, is that pancake raw in the center or not? Right. And you're just like, Yeah. Is the French fry done?
+
+[16:59] So much of it is observational, right? Yeah. We're dork's also. Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure.
+
+[17:04] And uh what else here? Like you got the Coon Recon, that's the that's the peeler to get. Although my wife bought me a Pokemon peeler once that I still like. Yeah, I I mean, listen, I also like it because it's like 49 cents, right? Or probably a dollar forty-nine now.
+
+[17:16] But I remember there was also something like, oh, it's the best peeler and it's also like not that expensive. Right. They get stolen all the time from you. You can get one now that's a glove with like a safety mechanism, right? I mean, I'm I'm I'm assuming I think so.
+
+[17:28] You don't go to those type of shops. No. No. You know what they I used to shop all the time. They used to have a really inexpensive store called Lectors, where you could go just to buy beater stuff, and then they went out of business, and so now either you're going to a department store in New York, you're going to a department store, or you have to go high end.
+
+[17:44] And a lot of times, or a restaurant, a lot of times, like there's no middle zone, there's not a middle zone. You know what I mean? I don't know. Antique shops. Those are always fun.
+
+[17:53] Oh, yeah. But like, you know, I found some really good like old sabatier knives there. Um, yeah, no, that's all good. I have a massive sabatier knife that um in culinary school, I had to kill a turtle with. It's a really like dark story.
+
+[18:08] So, what kind of turtle? So I was uh uh at the CIA, right, culinary school, just so everyone's clear. And uh I was the fish kitchen fellowship, which is very prestigious, just so we're all clear. Like they give away one of those a year. And how many students you got?
+
+[18:21] You got a lot of students. 75 students every three weeks. So like I lived in this fish kitchen basically. And at some point, someone brought in a giant turtle. Like a you know, someone out in the Hudson River brought in a turtle, and they were like, we need we need the fish kitchen fellowship guy to come down here.
+
+[18:36] That I didn't even have a name at that point, I was just the fish kitchen guy. And then they were like, You gotta cut this turtle's head off. And it was kind of like it's kind of a dark story. I'm kind of sad about it. Well, I was just doing my job, just to be clear.
+
+[18:47] Yeah. And like turtle murderer. Turtle murderer. You know, people are very uptight about turtles. You know that people are very uptight about turtles, right?
+
+[18:54] I am too, but for a different reason. You know why? Quick little sidebar here. All right. The book is being out, my book so good, is being outperformed by the teenage mutant ninja turtle pizza cook for.
+
+[19:03] So you're four killing them. I've like right now, I have a little issue with them. One, because I don't think the Ninja Turtles wrote their own recipes, I'm sure of it. Second of all, I'm not a big fan of them as superheroes. Like, I'd take the X-Men, I'd take any superhero group against the Ninja Turtles any day.
+
+[19:19] So after here, I'm going to Times Square, I'm gonna take them out, take down a couple ninjas. Yeah, also the other thing about it is not really teenagers anymore. I mean, that's the 80s. No, they don't get they never age. There are age that's not right.
+
+[19:30] See, teenager is an age. They should just say immature ninja turtles. Yeah. Well mutant. Immature mutant ninja turtles.
+
+[19:38] Because an age is a thing. You don't get to like stay a teenager forever. You can act like a freaking teenager forever, but you can't actually be one forever. This is an absurdity. Yeah.
+
+[19:47] It makes no sense. Write your own recipes, Donatello. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't even I don't even I was never a fan, so I don't even know which one's which. Or I mean, do they what are they?
+
+[19:55] They like anchovies? My my my girls actually like them. So I had so like that's the other thing. Like they like the turtles better than me. The old school turtles or these new weird, like roided out turtles.
+
+[20:04] They probably only know the new roided out turtles. Yeah, it's it's uh it's sad. It's garbage, it's garbage. Um but anyway, yeah, this the knife and the turtle, and everyone's upset now, but it was a long time ago, and I was just doing my job. Okay, so apparently, if a turtle goes into its shell, there's a couple of ways you can get the head out.
+
+[20:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stick to lure it out, or the finger the other way, which wouldn't need to do. Um I didn't know about the finger technique, so I'm glad I showed up today. Uh I'll use that in the future. Whoa!
+
+[20:32] The head pops out, bang. So it was a it was a broomstick handle. Yeah. Yeah, and it went it bit on it, and you chopped it off? Yeah.
+
+[20:39] Strong. Yeah, this is a disgusting story. I'm sorry. Um, and then so like you do it, like it's part of my fellowship. So I'm learning how to butcher this turtle, and like that's my like I'm learning as a chef.
+
+[20:48] This is weird because not a fish. Not a fish. Not a fish. But who are you gonna call? The meat?
+
+[20:53] I mean, I guess you could have called the meat butcher. Right. Well, that's why like uh yeah, rabbits are handled by the poultry person, which you said tastes like chicken in the book. I noticed. I noticed that, but like not a poultry.
+
+[21:01] Sure. Rodent. Not a poultry. No, right, exactly. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:05] The scary thing was that turtle haunted me for like days. Because in the walk-in, it was still moving for days after. It was just. Well, they're slow metabolism. They just don't, yeah.
+
+[21:13] They don't mean it doesn't know it's dead yet. The feet don't know it's dead yet. Every publicist in this room is freaking out right now. We should just be really careful. Okay, hold on.
+
+[21:14] This is gone to its dark place. Let me mention something to all of you PR folks. Yeah, exactly. Anyone out there in listening land. Almost every piece of meat you've ever eaten, I'd venture to say every piece of meat that you've ever eaten was at one point an animal.
+
+[21:34] Yes. And turtles, while you might like them, while you should not take turtles that are uh improperly taken from the wild because they take a long time to um replenish and you can crash supplies, and so you should not take wild-caught turtles unless you, I guess, are allowed to in a specific place. All of this is true. And I think they're cool. They are not smart.
+
+[21:55] They are not the smartest of animals. Here's a uh uh here's something that I judge. So if you eat beef, you shouldn't worry about killing a turtle. Turtles don't have there they there now there's some argument about this. Uh, one of the things I take is does an animal have a sense of play?
+
+[22:10] Literally, sense of play. Can it play, right? Does it do things other than avoid things that it hates and uh you know get food and sleep, right? Turtles pretty much no play. No play.
+
+[22:25] There are some the birds, obviously, there, and there are other reptiles that can play. Monitor lizards are uh in the reptile family, like can get to that level where they they have those kind of interactions. But if you don't have a sense of play, pretty much I don't feel that bad about it. Yeah. So that is your note to the publicists in the room, correct?
+
+[22:44] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, but the thing is that the people nowadays they get so hyped up about uh, you know, no one wants to separated from the food that we eat. You're right.
+
+[22:54] Yeah. You know what? How did it taste? Um you know, we made like a traditional like uh, you know, turtle soup with sherry and eh. Yeah.
+
+[22:59] Yeah. Was it worth it? I mean, you know, I just did my job as student. I was a student. I want to be clear.
+
+[23:09] Very rarely, with the exception of fish and crustaceans, like the work of killing something makes the food to me not as much fun. I don't know, something about it. I just I don't me personally. But it does give you the gravity. Every cook does need to know all the things you said.
+
+[23:24] Like, hey, this thing was alive and you need to respect it and you need to eat it and you need to use all of it, right? Um but like I don't, yeah, like frogs. Do you like frogs? No. I'm not a big fan of frogs.
+
+[23:33] No. But there was a point in my career I was like, ooh, we gotta do a frog dish. Yeah, yeah. I really don't like the way that they're killed where you buy them. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:41] Like, um, but again, no sense of play, shouldn't worry about it too much. But it's still it's just bad form. You know that you know the way they kill frogs, right? Yeah, tell it, Dave. I I don't, so I'm just by the way.
+
+[23:51] So if you go to uh at least this is in New York City, if you go to a New York City Chinatown to buy frogs, which is where you get them here. There's a uh a trash barrel full of live frogs where they're just basically crushing themselves. And you know, we're talking about how big is that stuff? It's like three and a half inches? Sure.
+
+[24:07] Four, somebody about that size. Yeah. And the guy, assuming it's a guy, it's I've only ever had guys. I don't want to, you know, could be anyone, right? Grabs the frog's rear legs, goes phoo boop, sticks the like like lays the frog out, bap onto the cutting thing, bap, bap with the cleaver, takes the two legs off, put the legs in the plastic bag.
+
+[24:27] They I think they weigh them first because you pay on whole frog weight. Right. Then they take the live rear legless body and throw it into the trash heap along with the fish guts. Because a frog's a fish. Did you know that?
+
+[24:38] You knew that. Frog's a fish. This is amazing though, but I've never seen the barrel and the butchery of uh Bap Bop Bap Bop. Yeah, because uh, you know, why would you take home that whole frog body that you're about to throw away when you know all you want is that rear, you know, leg. You know, that's the theory of it.
+
+[24:56] Thank you for making this day worth it to me educationally as well. We have just alienated all of your uh by the way, you have a podcast coming, speaking of listeners, right? Yeah, so no one even knows this is a world premiere. So I am getting into the podcast game, and now I know that I also have to work on my open, by the way. Like, thank you for just like tell like whoa, that's like how my open because you're always worried talking about food on radio or an audio that it's not gonna have any energy, right?
+
+[25:20] Right, right. But like, oh my god, like now I have now I have a goal. Like to get to that Dave Arnold energy. Punch into it. So yeah, the podcast is gonna be out soon, and it's called Richard Blaze uh is starving for attention, which is perfect for me.
+
+[25:32] Nice. So what's it what's the I mean, other than food, what's the subject? Like we're getting we're just gonna we're gonna talk to everyone in the industry, I mean, obviously chefs, restaurateurs, and people in the beverage community, but also with a uh really getting into media and television and and you know, people that create food television shows, how it is to produce something, create a television show, and and get into the media side of it. And and uh nightmare, right? Yeah, that's uh yeah.
+
+[26:00] Seriously, what do you think though? Do you I mean like now that you've been doing it so long, wait, do you what do you think about it? Like, here's here's my thing. A lot without, for instance, the food network, I mean, there wouldn't be I mean, like, come on, I mean, the amount of interest and and that it's generated like countrywide, worldwide, like the food media has done a lot for food writ large that I think it doesn't necessarily get credit for. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you have to say it's been great because it's inspired so many people to discover things that they've never known that they would be into.
+
+[26:35] Uh the only sidebar is that you know, because food is all over the place, that you know, when as a restaurantur and as a restaurant chef, you know, you do get, you know, kids that come in that want to be a celebrity chef. Right. They've never been in the kitchen before. It you know, it took me 12 years before you know I luckily got asked to come on a TV show or something like that. So you get a lot of that.
+
+[26:56] Like, oh, I I just I want to, you know, I want to do cookbooks and be on TV shows, and you can do that, uh, but you know, it's not what we necessarily need in the restaurant. Right. I mean, that pisses off all of my New York buddy. It pisses them all off, but on the other hand, like you you're griping about something, and yet on the other hand, you're a well-known chef because there is food media. So it's like they get mad about these like young kids coming in and wanting to be all hotshots, and you can't have your cake to use another food reference and eat it as well.
+
+[27:26] You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you can either own your cake or you can have eaten your cake. This is the only two choices. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:31] Like, you can't expect to be a well-known chef that people write about and then get pissed off that somebody else wants fame and doesn't necessarily understand the work that's involved. Yeah, and if you microwave that cake. Yeah, super fast. Yeah, then there you go. And then uh people are interested in your cake.
+
+[27:46] Yeah. Pretty much everybody knows that the solution to this problem is to make two cakes. You make two cakes, one that you you keep for visuals, that's the one that's iced well, and one that has a better icing to cake ratio that you eat that tastes better. I mean, that's the answer. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[28:00] Well, with almost anything, too. I mean, that's interesting. Like, how do you cook on television? Which is another thing that I really love talking about. It's like you do things like that.
+
+[28:07] You make two of the dish that you're about to serve so you can test one, so you can pick which one's a little bit better than the other one. Um, yeah. So when you're doing TV, how much prep time do you have? In other words, so here's the issue. I see a lot of people, especially young people starting out, especially if they want to do kind of new technique stuff, they do stuff that they haven't necessarily uh tried, and it can be nerve-wracking, right?
+
+[28:29] Trying something for the first time on the camera. Oh, well, I mean that's the biggest mistake, right? For all these young kids on shows like Chopped or Top Chef or something like that. Then they're making blueberry snow out of maltodextrin, and it's really not delicious. And everyone's kind of also seen it by this point, and then they get sent home, and then they're like, oh, the the judge doesn't get me.
+
+[28:52] No, they get you. They get you really well. Uh you thought that, you know, that was some secret thing you just pulled out and it didn't taste good. Right. I mean, the thing is, is that like I think to me it's okay to try some combination you've never tried before, but make sure that if you're gonna serve people, that the technique you're gonna use is something that is in your toolkit, that's in your you understand how it works, you understand why you're using it.
+
+[29:17] Right? And it has to serve deliciousness. I mean, it's pretty simple. Um, so if you can do both, then you're you know, you're gonna be famous like Richard Blaze. I mean, that's obvious.
+
+[29:27] We gotta we gotta call it. Let's see what they got. Caller, you're on the air. Hey everyone, this is Anton from Pennsylvania. I'm uh research chemist and training, and I've been following cooking issues for I know.
+
+[29:38] Where in Pennsylvania? Where in Pennsylvania? Um, I'm in Allentown, but I commute all the way from Philadelphia. Alright, nice. All right.
+
+[29:47] I was just in Allentown. Yeah, yeah. My I used to have relatives that live there, actually just outside in uh Quitstown. Yeah, yeah. My mom lived in Scranton for a bit.
+
+[29:54] Really? Nice. We're just connected on so many levels. So what do you got? What do you got for us?
+
+[29:58] Uh yeah, this is actually my first introduction to Allentown. But um I actually wanted to say before I get to my question that that uh Alton Brown goodies was my first introduction, like really compelling introduction to science and not just food. Really uh that's pretty seminal to uh to where I am now. But in in in regards to my actual question, I've uh been wanting to experiment with homemade miso, and I wanted to know if Storba Miso uh say from Whole Foods would be appropriate for culturing my substrate. Um a friend of mine has uh taken charge of a Korean natural farming program in New Jersey, and we'll be trying to optimize their rice operations, which they claim to be one of the few farms producing rice in the northeast.
+
+[30:42] Um all this being said, I wanted to use this opportunity to experiment on some novel uh rice strain and uh just kind of play around with Miso. So I wanted to know your thoughts. Uh real quick, I'm gonna can I just take a real quick yeah. Um uh I'm gonna pass on this one. Like I thought we were going to the right place with Alton Brown and then like yeah, this is a Dave Arnold question.
+
+[31:05] No, well actually, you know, uh you should our CookQuest, who uh is like the Miso master, does uh like a Miso workshops. I w look a lot of I mean depends on what you buy. There are uh there are Misos out there that haven't been dorked with uh and that are still kind of alive, but you can just get Koji. I would just buy the Koji. Uh it's readily available.
+
+[31:27] And um, you know, look up our go like tweet our CookQuest. That's his Twitter hand, I think it right, R CookQuest. Uh he's been on the show before, actually, and he can hook you up with like the very the very best in Koji strains. But uh, you know, like the here's the issue when you're doing something like that. I mean, unless you have a miso that you love it, love it, love it, love it, love, and like you're like, maybe there's some special mojo about this.
+
+[31:52] I would just use a and he is of the opinion, by the way, Rich, that's our cook quest, that the strain of Koji isn't necessarily so as important as the um substrate. But right uh, so I would just buy the koji this way you're you're guaranteed to have it work, it's not already been uh possibly you know treated with something or you know, because a lot of times, especially I don't know what misos you're trying to make, but if they're doing like a Shiro Mies or something like this, they they hit it with alcohol to wipe out some of the you know uh a little bit of alcohol to stop it from further um you know uh fermenting or breaking down. So uh I don't know. But I'm interested in this Northeast Rice. Have you guys ever heard of this?
+
+[32:32] Northeast rice? Anyone, anyone? Northeast rice. I think it's a novelty. He um so my friend uh studied at uh USD chemical engineer there, and I guess he ended up working at a commune in Ohio, California, which I don't know if anybody knows in California.
+
+[32:48] I just partied in Ohio like two weeks ago. Really? It's an amazing place, yeah. All right. Right.
+
+[32:52] So he uh he learned some Korean natural farming and uh like worked with indigenous microorganisms. I don't know if any of us like rings a bell. But um he uh yeah, he brought it over here and he kind of ended up talking to um this uh this farm in Paddington, New Jersey called Blue Moon Acres, and uh they were super open to the idea and it looked like they were kind of heading in the same direction. So the stars kind of aligned. And um yeah, I've enjoyed their race.
+
+[33:18] I mean, they're still pretty young in terms of the actual program, but uh I figured I might as well like use this opportunity, why not? Yeah, all right. Well, you know, like uh let's see. Like my point is is that any s it depends on what they can grow. So like New Jersey, any time that they're not growing a tomato or growing a corn, I want to hit them because like they that's what they should be doing.
+
+[33:37] But I'm sure there are land types in New Jersey that don't grow great corn and great great uh tomatoes. So then yeah, grow rice, right? I mean, grow rice, I guess. A lot of great things, you know, New Jersey, Garden State. We forget that New Jersey was the garden state.
+
+[33:51] Especially, you know, Richard, you're a Long Island guy. Yeah. We grew up hating, not hating, but you know, ranking on New Jersey. But it's like you cousin, you give a little, you know, a little hard time to every every once in a while, right? Yeah.
+
+[34:02] It's like imagine if your cousin was the Jersey Turnpike. Right, exactly. Yeah. You'd give them a pretty hard time. Yeah.
+
+[34:08] Yeah. But a lot of good things came out of New Jersey, like uh Welch's grape juice. Do you like Welch's grape juice? Love Welch's grapes juice. Yeah, the recipe for Concord Grapes in here, Welch's grape juice, New Jersey, Vineland.
+
+[34:17] Yeah. Six flax. We used to go from Long Island to six flax. Okay, here's one for you for those who gr any you guys well, you too young. Remember Action Park in Vernon, New Jersey?
+
+[34:25] I do. Yeah, uh people you I what I didn't realize as a kid, people would die there constantly. Yeah, I had my junior high class trip there. Yeah, sick. It was amazing.
+
+[34:33] Sick. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, people would apparently get drunk. I was too young. The people who work there would get drunk and rip the regulators off of the go-karts so that the go-karts had unlimited speed at night and they would also be drinking.
+
+[34:43] So like workers used to die all not forget the kids, workers used to die all the time. Oh. Why don't they bring that place back? Why don't they bring it back? Hey, it's Kathy Irway, the host of Eat Your Words.
+
+[35:04] Today I'm here with Camilla Salisbury, author of Bob's Red Mill Everyday Gluten Free Cookbook. 281 Delicious Whole Green Recipes. We're gonna get to the bottom of this gluten-free craze. So why aren't people eating gluten and what does gluten-free really mean? Well, there are two main reasons why um people are deciding to go gluten-free these days.
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+[35:24] And the first one is really serious. It's for people who have celiac disease, and it's a pretty serious um condition. But then there is also a growing number of people with gluten gluten intolerance or gluten sensitivity. And they're trying out um gluten-free diets because they find that eating foods without gluten just makes them feel better. Okay, got it.
+
+[35:47] But what actually makes something gluten-free? Well, what makes something gluten-free is essentially that hat doesn't have any um of the protein, gluten in it. And a lot of people are surprised to learn that uh many grains do not contain gluten when in fact just a very small number of grains do. Does anyone offer truly gluten-free options? Um, well, Bob's Red Mill really understands gluten-free options.
+
+[36:13] Um that means they separate their grains um during the manufacturing process. And so they're testing each batch at every step of the way for purity to ensure that it's gluten-free. So when it says on the package that it's gluten-free, you can be assured that it is gluten-free.com slash podcast. So anyway, I hope that answers the call. Uh sure, caller, you're on the air.
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+[36:59] Hey David, it's David from California. How you doing? We're in California. Great. Hey Richard.
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+[37:05] Hey, what's up? Love Jennifer and Ivy out here, by the way. Oh. Thank you. Hey, uh, so there's a lot of myths surrounding this.
+
+[37:14] Should I salt my egg before cooking or only after? And what's the science uh behind why you do one or the other? Before I before I have him answer, what kind of what which style of egg are we talking here? It could be scrambled and omelet, uh almost any style. Well, I you know, this is ironic because Dave, I was gonna ask you the same question.
+
+[37:39] Like when I came up here, I was like, what am I gonna ask him? I was gonna ask you about how do you you season your eggs before or during or after. Yeah, I season omelets definitely before. Yeah. Maybe like over easy, maybe like just as a finish, but that would that's how I cook.
+
+[37:54] Yeah, definitely. Uh before uh here's some things. Uh it does change the egg somewhat, and I think in a helpful way. So, like uh you ever make if you like yeah, you ever do like uh sweet egg preparations like a sweet omelet like a tomato or something like this, right? Delicious, right?
+
+[38:12] But you know when you're blending that stuff beforehand, you can see the yolks go kind of translucent on you when you add like the salt and the sugar. And so you're do you're definitely changing the egg yolk by adding that stuff, I think, in a positive way. That's just my feeling. And so I do it beforehand. And it's, yeah, in a positive way, making it more delicious.
+
+[38:34] That's right. I'm also a firm, firm believer in uh not having a uh a thing that needs a bunch of salt throughout with some salt on top. I prefer properly seasoned throughout with a little salt on top, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So you do uh you like finishing salt though, right?
+
+[38:57] Because I think that's one of the things that just happens in restaurants that regular restaurants don't do it. And like it's just whether it's a little drizzle of oil, a little citrus, some zest, a little salt, like those little finishing touches. That's why I love the pass, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can look at it be like, ah, and then you finish like it's it's not just about spitting food out, it's about like the finishing touches.
+
+[39:15] And putting the eyeballs on. But like so, but like in a sandwich situation, every freaking layer, every freaking layer gets its own salt, like a little bit. So like when you I slice the tomatoes, now you don't want to salt the tomatoes way ahead of time because it it'll it Christmas gets ruined, it destroyed Christmas over, you're a bad person. You know what I mean? But unless you're making a salsa or something like this, you want to break it down.
+
+[39:36] But like salt the tomato on and then the every layer gets its own thing. Yeah, with burgers, especially. It's one of my pet peeves. Like, season the tomato that's on the burger. Cause because it wants it.
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+[39:47] It wants it. You make the you yeah, you salt the I don't salt the inside of the burger because I don't want the texture to change. So I salt the ever-loving crap out of the outside of the burger. We're on the same camp right there. Right.
+
+[39:59] We're vibing right now. Also, oh, but you have a stuffed burger, which we'll talk about later. But then the Yeah, and then you salt the different layers because they want it. Because they freaking want it. Back to eggs real quick.
+
+[40:09] Um, this is something I just did recently. I had a little black truffle on my person. And I brought it on an airplane with me. That's smelly. And it is.
+
+[40:18] And when I got served an omelet, which most airlines serve a little bit. Please tell me you did not do this. Did you how did you get the shaver on board? I just I had a little a little rasp that somehow like got through. And I just was like, you know what?
+
+[40:29] Just for my my person sitting next, I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this guy a show. And I pulled out a little black truffle on an airplane and just rasped, just showered this, you know, vomiting. With real black truffle. And like it was kind of amazing. Did it unovercook the omelet?
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+[40:49] I mean, it made it kind of like enjoyable in the entertainment value of it. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. How do you k those things are I was surprised that I even got on the plane with a truffle, not only just the rasp.
+
+[41:00] If you you know what? Like, I bet you a little oil as well could bring that omelet back from the brink, right? The oil on the truffle would just be like a topping, and then you could think of the omelet as bread. And if you put some gooey cheese in the omelet, that helps. That helps too.
+
+[41:12] But they don't do that, do they, right? One of them does. Um, I mean, not to judge airlines on their omelets, but I would say I'm I actually fly Delta all the time, but United has a really good omelet. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[41:23] So that's the one thing they can do. During the whole thing with United, I was like, uh, but they make a decent omelet. The omelets, I told last week, uh two weeks ago, I thought they killed a giant rabbit. They ripped that guy off the airplane. It's all right, yeah.
+
+[41:35] You know what I mean? But their omelets. Good. I mean, that's pretty good. I mean, as far as airlines go.
+
+[41:41] I gotta keep it real. Like they make a good omelette for an airplane omelet. What kind of container do they in? Like, and how much of the omelet tears away when you open that foil thing? Is it just some sort of hideous nightmare with that like No, they um, so you know, I'm riding up front, Dave.
+
+[41:53] Okay. So like they're pulling the at least on this flight. And they're they're pulling the foil off up front. I don't see it. And it's a nice little container.
+
+[42:01] It's per uh they do listen, you know. I mean, I could leave the sausage and sweet potato hash off to the side, but the omelet was pretty good. You put a lot of the truffle on it. Yeah, yeah. I ride, I ride deep coach.
+
+[42:10] Deep deep coach. Yeah, yeah. Like the seat right before the back bathroom. Yeah, well, Nastasi and I like uh uh does that seat recline? Because if it does, it's too good for them.
+
+[42:20] And like they, you know, right? That's right. Deep coach, cattle class. You know what I mean? Like, I'm one step above uh the rabbit that United killed by putting it in a freezer.
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+[42:29] They do let me deplane with the rest of the passengers, just last. You know what I mean? Oh man. Oh, airplanes. Eggs, has this helped you at all?
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+[42:40] Yes, it does. So you're gonna you're gonna chalk it up to urban myth that chefs who say salt it lasts. Well, why would they what's the theory? What's the theory of operation why I would want to salt it at the end only? Uh you'd have to ask the chefs who insist on it.
+
+[42:58] I don't know. Look, here's here's what I'm gonna say about this. Anyone, most people that I know, even complete Ninkan poops, who are professional cooks that cook all the time. If you taste their food and their food is good, then you even if their explanations are crazy and make no sense to you, it makes sense to kind of focus on their technique and what they do and why they do it, and maybe you learn something that you didn't already know. Like aside from what you and your your head think, right?
+
+[43:29] So the first thing is is their food good? And then if it is, just observe what they do, and maybe there's a good reason. I don't know. And current company excluded, most chefs are just assholes. Family show.
+
+[43:41] Oh, sorry. That's all right, don't worry about it. You're allowed to, I was looking, I was looking up, you know, in uh in a North Ireland now, not in like the not in like lower UK, you're allowed to say gobshite on the TV. Oh, I just want to start saying that just in general. It's a good word, right?
+
+[43:56] Mouth poop. Is that what it means? It translates, yeah, like gobstopper, like everlasting gobstopper, like a mouth like a mouthstopper, the gob being the mouth. Gob shite, mouth. I should have thrown that one.
+
+[43:59] I apologize, by the way. Gobsite. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're not in Northern Ireland, but you know.
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+[44:11] Alright. Thanks to both of you. And it to tweet us and tell us why I'm not supposed to add the salt until the end. Maybe there's some sort of reason. I don't know.
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+[44:19] I I I can't see a reason why I would want the inside of my egg not to taste good. I'll give them the over easy. Like maybe over easy because it's thin and like you can. Yeah, also, by the way, here's a uh here's a uh what am I what you said, uh, an admission. I don't do the French style uh curded scramble egg.
+
+[44:36] I don't I like an American style scramble, like a hard curd, not the creamy curd. So maybe but no, all those creamy curd ones are salted, but maybe they're salted towards the end. Maybe it affects the curd structure. Maybe that's what the chef is talking about if they're doing the old school French. But there are a lot of those myths, right?
+
+[44:52] That you just kind of pick up and it's just like, why are you doing it? Oh, because the last 12 people told me to do it this way, but I've never thought about why I'm doing it. Salt 100% and sugar 100% affect the temperature at which the protein sets and probably also the curd structure. So maybe it has something to do with those French, like you know, I'm talking about the super slow, slowly. Is it a moisture issue?
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+[45:12] Like uh the whole like salting mushrooms only at the end of a cook time? Which I salt that stuff right at the beginning. Look at you. Yeah, I salt everything right because salt. Salt is your buddy.
+
+[45:20] Speaking of salt, you put why do all chefs, I like them. Why do all chefs love the bocarones more than the salted anchovy? I like uh I like both for different things. Yeah, they're different. Yeah, one to eat on its own on some on a nice tartine, which was a brusquetta, which now is a toast.
+
+[45:39] I can't keep up with like what's cool to call call a slab of toast. Uh so I like the boca coronis for that. But like for a sauce or something, right? Just yeah. Yeah.
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+[45:47] Yeah. The old school throw it in. I like the tinned packed in salt guys. They're really good. Yeah.
+
+[45:53] And you know, they recently, um, so for those of you that buy anchovies packed in salt, uh, they they used to for my whole life. They came in a giant, not giant, but like four anchovies, giant can that's like kind of like it looks like an oversized tuna fish can. You know what I'm talking about, right? And it's metal, right? And you have to open it and then it's sitting around in in your in your uh in your fridge, unless you use a boat ton of anchovies, and the can can sometimes ride through, they just move to a plastic tub.
+
+[46:20] So my god, that's that's blaze for me. Yeah, no plasti don't like the plastic tub? I I I kinda like I buy those just for the tin because the tin is like I love the tin. You love the tin. Right?
+
+[46:31] All right, all right. I mean, I'll get the plastic tub as well, but I feel like that's try the plastic, try the plastic tub. That's really a shame. So here's here's some random stuff. So uh I noticed you do your squash blossoms in uh in a masa flower.
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+[46:42] You get you like the crispy crunch on the masa. I feel people underuse masa on a fry bag. Here's the thing uh native New Yorker who lived in Atlanta for many years and now I live in Southern California, and like my world has been open to all things Mexican, basically. Uh so we have we pay a little homage to you know some traditional Mexican foods at my restaurant in Southern California, and I think that what you're looking at a squash blossom relleno. Yeah, but I like the texture of uh of a masa fried masa dusting better than cornmeal.
+
+[47:11] Yeah. I think a little not not quite as uh grainy, right? Right, but also like it maintains it. You know how like when you fry in a cornmeal, it like sogs out pretty quickly. It does.
+
+[47:23] So masa is hard the way corn is hard, and it has the crunch, but I don't think it sogs out as fast. Right. Masa is also the name of one of my sous chefs who's never soggy. It is but it's always crisp and just on top of the page. Japanese?
+
+[47:36] Japanese strong. But do you like like play off make masa cook masa? No, but you've just inspired that. That's right. So like when we put this dish on the menu.
+
+[47:42] So a couple other things. I noticed that you like to mess with the names of things to piss off purists. I'm assuming it's to piss off purists. You have a steak tartare recipe in here called carne asada. Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[47:55] It makes no sense. Zero sense. Zero sense. Like the anti-sense. Yeah.
+
+[47:58] And like, whoa, it's yeah, it's raw. It's supposed to be cook. It's cooked. No, it's raw. Yeah, we like to have fun.
+
+[48:02] We make up words. Like, so when we do uh when we blend some uni into linguini, we just call it lingoonie because like why not just create a word while you're at it. If you're an artist, create the word, not just the food. Well, my favorite pun in this is you do wu Wu-Tang clams. Wu Tang clams.
+
+[48:19] Because it's got the Chinese sausage. Yeah, but listen, the thing about because it's got the the Chinese sausage, but also Wu Tang clams ain't nothing to shock with. There you go. There you go. And you're selling Nastasia.
+
+[48:30] Nastasia's a Nastasia loves some puns. Uh so I'm a 90s hip hop kid, so I can't, I'm a native New Yorker. So I can't we'll never break out of that. So Nastasia, brace yourself here. Okay.
+
+[48:40] Okay. There he there's a Putinesca in here, right? It's Bucetini, but no freaking tomato. Huh. It's got capers, it's got olives, not the right kind for you, but it's got olives in there and capers.
+
+[48:53] No freaking tomato. Yeah, well, we what are it's a green version of it, right? Yeah. So it's a green version of it. So give me, can you give me?
+
+[49:00] Like, I know when we start talking about Italian food, the authenticity issue gets pretty strong. Well, it's interesting that you go, you do a green Putin. Yeah, especially. Everything's green in the book. Is this where we're going?
+
+[49:10] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, you do you you do that, so then I'm like, all right, he's doing he's doing a green putnescu. Okay, whatever. Right. I mean, not Putinesca, but okay.
+
+[49:19] And then I turn the page and I see crab meat and a tie telling, and I'm like, what is he gonna cover this with? And you'd go breadcrumbs. And I was like, that's right. That's right, yeah. Well, we breadcrumbs.
+
+[49:28] Well, we got the Calabrian chilies. We opened with that. And there's some sort of authenticity, Richard Blaze. There's a little bit there. You gotta go breadcrumbs.
+
+[49:34] I love breadcrumbs on the pasta, by the way. My son Booker loves it. He puts too much on. He calls it Mount Bretterist. He pours like breadcrumbs all up in his pasta.
+
+[49:43] But I love breadcrumbs. You also have to care for the breadcrumbs, though. This is a pet peeve of mine, too. Like you have to make the breadcrumbs toasty and delicious. They have to be seasoned.
+
+[49:52] Right? Like you can't just I've seen on TV shows. Like, you can't just open up Panko and pour it on top of your pasta dish, and you're not, you're really not servicing the dish with. What's that brand that comes in the tub? You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[50:03] The tub of breadcrumbs that's above the bread aisle. What's that stuff? What's that brand? Don't sleep on 4C. Don't 4C, that's it.
+
+[50:09] Don't sleep on my mom's go-to 4C breadcrumb seasoning. You've never had Long Island chicken cutlets like that, Dave. Never. Does a Salisbury steak where he re-molds the freaking meat back on the bone. First of all, for any of you that grew up with a television, Salisbury steak.
+
+[50:28] That's my go-to TV dinner. There you go. But here's why. Because you got the Salisbury steak, and then what lives right over the little cliff there is the cherry cobbler. And if you work a little of that cherry cobbler into your demigloss from the Salisbury steak, you're all ready to go.
+
+[50:42] You got cherry demigloss, basically. So this is like the most not Swanson's hungry man looking satellite. Well, that's one of my favorite recipes in the book, because it's a hamburger on a giant bone. Like that's what hamburgers have been missing. Do you do this in the restaurant?
+
+[50:56] We've done it in the restaurant here and there. I I would love to put it on the menu. And maybe the book will drive that. Will Californians pick up a bone like that? Yes.
+
+[50:59] Yes. Southern Californians? Like what about LA people? Will LA people pick up a bone like that? Yeah, I think they will.
+
+[51:11] I will say that, you know, the first question in California, you do the menu testing, and you know, does anyone have any questions about the 75 items on this menu? And then the first question is, can you get gluten-free? And you know, can you do that vegan? Yeah, so I mean that's just California. This would be a very difficult vegan recipe.
+
+[51:26] That would be in yeah, that would be really tough. Because how can how do you make a giant bone out of tofu? I mean, this would you would have to tackle that. Yeah, that's requires an advanced mind. They can have the the herbs and the garlic, but that's about it.
+
+[51:39] Yeah, no, that's all that's all they can do. Here's one that's gonna drive Nastasi and see. So Nastasia has a very like like, you know, to her fans, well-known vegan face. You ready for it? Yeah.
+
+[51:49] Vegetarian. It's not I guess it's not vegan. Ready? Beet loaf. Not meat loaf, beetloaf.
+
+[51:54] What do you think about that fun? You hate beets. I hate beets, but you hate beets. You hate beets. I don't hate beets.
+
+[51:59] I don't hate that's a lie. That's a lie. I love I love beets. What I don't like is when they taste dirty and they're in giant chunks. I like a pickled beet.
+
+[52:12] Yeah. I like a sliced beet. I like a beet salad. I like beets in things. I like party hydrated beets.
+
+[52:18] I'm gonna take it to a place where you might yeah, you wouldn't know that I would go there. I like canned beets. Yeah, I like them. They're earthy. They're earthy.
+
+[52:26] I don't like when beets sneak up on you like later in the day when you maybe you're going to the restroom. Yeah. And then like you have that one moment where you're like, oh my god. Oh, okay. It's alright, I had beats.
+
+[52:36] Sneak beads. I had beats. Sneak beats. So is this actually honestly though, it's cooked in the tree. It's delicious.
+
+[52:41] For real. Yeah, it it it it's tastier than the picture looks. Let me see here. I know this. So you have this other you have a recipe for gumbo, and you're like, gumbo's ugly.
+
+[52:44] I'm just not gonna shoot it. No, listen, you can't shoot all of it. Actually, the the soup chapter of the book is one of my favorites because they're all sort of soups that are meals. Like, I know you could do the nice little puree soup with some croutons, but like these are all soups, like you put out a big bowl of it, and your family just goes at it. So, like gumbo, kanji, some of the recipes we have in there, they're like meals borscht when it's like just lots of chunky things flowing around.
+
+[53:13] I like soups like that. You know what you you know what you put in as one of your seminal uh like childhood or like you know, young adult, the tam kagai. You know who doesn't like tom kagai? Yeah. This one over here.
+
+[53:21] Yeah, I I can I get it. Is it too much fish sauce? It's the coconut milk, right? Yeah, I don't know. Forget, forget, forget.
+
+[53:28] She's it's crazy. You know what else she doesn't like? Biscuits, biscuits. You wait a second. You don't like beets, biscuits or tamkagai.
+
+[53:35] Well, coconut milk, hot coconut coconut milk, do not like. Do you like cold coconut milk? No. No. Okay.
+
+[53:41] Okay, so you don't you you do not like coconuts? Okay, but hold up, hold up. So I noticed in here, and I've seen this a lot in the past uh couple of years, is that people pushing towards cream in in the in the biscuits. So, like, like mixing the butter base down with some cream. So, do you like it because the biscuits just are more tender because there's a little extra moisture in them?
+
+[54:01] This this recipe is uh an homage to a sort of food scientist, Shirley Correr. Yeah, good, yeah. I've met her a couple times. She wants to be a little bit more. This recipe, if you if there's one recipe you're gonna do that, do that one.
+
+[54:11] And you like the self-rising flour, you call for the old school source? Yeah, you gotta the lilywhite, you gotta get the the lily white, and uh, you know, maybe there's a little like uh sentiment behind it as well, but it's like a cakey biscuit. Like you you almost have to serve it in the tin because it's you go you can't like remove it from the tin. That's how soft, creamy, supple it is. Can you say supple for a biscuit?
+
+[54:29] Supple. Yeah. Is that a word for food? Like I hate when people do that, by the way, so I shouldn't. Are these cut or are these dropped?
+
+[54:38] These biscuits. Uh they're cut, right? Yeah, well, just yeah, fill up the pan and just my Thanksgiving sort of recipe, and we serve it at the restaurant. It's really popular. We gotta wrap it up in a minute.
+
+[54:48] Okay, uh, so I noticed uh your cornbread recipe doesn't have enough butter. Kidding. Does it have too much butter? No, no, it's like it's good. I mean, it's a lot of butter.
+
+[54:56] And then when it comes out, put more butter on it. That would be my suggestion. So just for you as you know, like it's uh so we're looking at like um uh a little more oh you do blue. Uh a little more cornmeal than flour, but like you know, pretty close to that kind of classic one one, right? So cup, the cup uh a little over a cup of each, and then two sticks of butter to four eggs.
+
+[55:15] It's like boom, man. That's like that's like twice waffle butter, which is nice. There's plenty of vegetable recipes in the book. And then a pound, a pound of jalapeno butter to serve on the side. Well, listen, that's you know, you put some in the fridge.
+
+[55:27] A lot of the recipes in there are okay, you're gonna make this thing jalapeno butter, uh, this mayonnaise sauce, and then you put it in the fridge, because don't you want to have stuff left over? I do. By the way, there's a picture of you, Chef hitting the whipped cream directly out of the uh EC. I have to tell Dax, my son Dax, every day not to do this. Yeah.
+
+[55:45] So that's example. It is a horrible example. I am a horrible example. I hope that I've made that clear. All right, one more thing.
+
+[55:51] I'm gonna have you answer one question, but then your chicken recipe, interesting because it's closer to like what I would see, like it goes directly from you do two marinades first. You do a pickled marinade, brief pickled marinade, then in buttermilk, presumably to tenderize and soften, right? And then directly into the into the flour mix, which is very like uh pies and thighs used to do it that way. I think Reburz used to do it that way, but it's like to me an alternate because I'm a dry dust wet thing, and you go right out of the thing, but like it lacquers down, and you're still doing it. I think helps with the Did you lacquer?
+
+[56:25] Did you lacquer your chicken? It looks so shiny, like it looks like almost pointed. That the picture there, then we toss it back in that sort of Nashville hot sauce, which really works. Yeah, this is the secret. All right, now you're gonna answer this question on the way out before.
+
+[56:38] Oh my gosh, okay. I'm not prepared for any questions. Yeah, here it is. Vlad, which is an amazing name. Vlad.
+
+[56:44] Vlad, I want to change my name now. Yeah, Vlad. I have a question about searing duck breast. Every time I sear and finish it in the oven, it comes out good, but when I start to cut it, juices are everywhere. And when I transfer the uh cuts to a plate, the juices continue leaking and it does not look good, especially with mashed potatoes.
+
+[56:59] I know about resting. I tried it too, but the meat cools down very quickly, and after five minutes rest, the breasts are not hot enough, and some juices are still running to the plate. So this is so then and I'll give you and then uh my current method is to give the breast uh a minute or so at rest and then to cut it and put it on towels to absorb the juices before I plate it. But I'm still losing the juices. What am I missing out on?
+
+[57:18] Uh and uh Vlad's technique is to um score it, salt, pepper, skin down uh for until it browns, and then in a in a hot oven for seven minutes. Wow, I mean my answer is gonna be super simple. Maybe it's the bird itself, right? Because depending on what that bird's been fed, there could be all sorts of or do you think like if it's frozen, like it's gonna frozen or yeah, sometimes it's like just brined or something. I don't know if the probably hasn't been brined.
+
+[57:44] Yeah, I tend not to too much because I think it firms up the inside of the firms up the plate. I'm thinking about what he's using. Yeah, we can see it. Uh but also you gotta let it rest. It seems like it's a resting issue, and then like a little little heat lamp, sort of like if it's resting but in a warm space.
+
+[57:58] That's what I'm saying. Hot plate. Like let it rest, hot plate, hot plate. If you're gonna do a duck breast like this, right? Right.
+
+[57:59] Warm your plates a little bit. Like if you but he doesn't have two ovens. This is why it's useful to have a plate heater, right? Right. Yeah.
+
+[58:10] I not to push my own stuff. I sometimes will searz all my plate a little bit to warm it up so that it doesn't cool down your product too much. Uh by the way, if if there ever was like a game of thrones, like sort of like, oh chef, pick your weapon. I grab this ears all. It well, especially if someone has it and you fire it right next to their ear, they're like, what the what?
+
+[58:28] Yeah, I also like we'll wrap some like like I'm also swinging it. Oh nice. Just so you know, like if you can paint that picture. I probably my lawyers probably say that you should not do that. Don't do it at home.
+
+[58:37] No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but lawyers are saying we gotta wrap it up. All right, so listen. All right, Dave. Jeez, Luis. All right, so uh so Vlad, uh, you know, if you have more questions or if you want more, we'll we'll deal more.
+
+[58:48] I have some other questions about cocktails. I didn't get to him. I apologize. We'll get to you. I might not I might be in China next week, people.
+
+[58:54] So I might not be back next week. I'll let you know via Twitter whether I'm back. We're going to visit because we're doing the spinzall, which is the centrifuge I'm working on. So I have to go to Shenzhen uh to to pre-approve, and it might be next week. How much does it hold like per vial?
+
+[59:08] Oh well, no, it's enough. It's open bucket, so it's 500 milliliters per bucket, but you can run it continuously, so you can just set it and forget it, walk away from it and do leaders and leaders and leaders. Dude. Working on it. Dude.
+
+[59:18] Working on it. All right. So you heard it here today. First, this is other than the today show. So we play I'll take I'll take seconds to hold it in Kathy Lee any day.
+
+[59:26] Uh uh Richard Blaze's new book, still good, out today. Go on Amazon, take a look at it. Thanks so much for you. Thank you. I'm so good.
+
+[59:33] Please help me beat the Ninja Turtles Pizza Book and jump on and buy a book, please. Yeah, come on. And if you're gonna buy a cartoon-based cookbook, make it be Bob's burgers. Agreed. All right.
+
+[59:41] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[1:00:13] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:00:38] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill dot com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:58] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 from Remero's Pizzeria in Bushwick Ruck Plan. Joined not as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is like somewhere outside of Rome in Lazio, uh talking to uh some food manufacturers.
+
+[1:30] I can't say exactly what she's doing. It is not my uh stuff to say, but in her stead, I have everybody's favorite punching bag Peter Cam. I was recently described as the black sheep of the cooking issues family. Nice, nice. Well, one of the question people actually like uh called you out by name, which is nice.
+
+[1:52] And as usual, we have Dave in the booth. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you doing? Doing all right, doing all right.
+
+[1:56] Um so yeah, so good. So if you have any questions, uh call them in to 718-497-2128. That's 7184972128. So uh I just got back from uh China. You ever been to China, Peter?
+
+[2:09] No. Uh wait, what kind of question is that? What do you mean? I'm actually Korean, you know that. I'm actually, you know, American, but I can go to China.
+
+[2:16] I'm actually I I got an invite to go to Korea in September, but I don't think I can go. No. No, I'd love to go, but uh no. Have you been to Korea? Yeah, I've been to Korea a few times.
+
+[2:24] How was it? I mean, you know, like first time I went, I was embarrassed of being Korean, so I tried to basically avoid anything. In Korea? In Korea. You were embarrassed about being of Korean descent in Korea.
+
+[2:35] Yeah. Well, you know. What that was that all about? Well, that was, you know, I grew up in the Midwest. There weren't a lot of Koreans around.
+
+[2:40] Yeah, but in Korea, presumably there are many Koreans. Right. And so I would. Do you feel like a poser? Yeah, basically, yeah.
+
+[2:46] No, I I was I was pretty uninterested in being there. I mean, I was. How old were you? Like 11 years old. So you were a dick.
+
+[2:51] Yeah, basically. Thanks. Yeah. Nothing's changed. Yeah.
+
+[2:54] So now I'm 36. I'm still embarrassed about being Korean. No, no, now I mean. Nothing we love here more at cooking issues than a self-hater. We love a self-hater.
+
+[3:03] Self-loathing. All good things come from self-loathing. Am I right? Uh I I'm I I wouldn't know. All good things.
+
+[3:09] Many good things come from self-loathing. That's more like it. Yeah. Uh so I want to go to Seoul really bad. Have you seen that movie uh host?
+
+[3:17] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. The hilarious thing about host is I w I was watching it uh and like the depictions of Americans in that is the most hilarious part about it. Because basically, it turns out the entire thing's America's fault from the beginning to the end.
+
+[3:31] The entire thing's even though America only plays like a minor tangential role in the film. So for those who don't know, Host is this, it's kind of a good movie. You like it? Uh I can't. I mean, you like that style?
+
+[3:41] Yeah, yeah. Like kind of like monster flickslash like you know, social commentary thing in uh South Korea, like you're in this in this creatures growing in the river. But like every American in it is a hilarious caricature of what it what it means to be an American. Just like straight up, like, you know, like there's a a mariney kind of guy, you know, white dude, who's like, I'm gonna help! I'm gonna help and he end up like hurting everything, you know what I mean?
+
+[4:07] And then there's like this other like guy at the beginning. It's like uh hilarious, but like is it hilarious that this is what people think of us? Yeah, it's funny. My parents have really conflicting memories of American soldiers during Korean the Korean war. So like my dad loved American soldiers because they'd give him like candy and he viewed them as sort of like saviors who came in.
+
+[4:26] And for my mom, it was a bit some of that, but then also she was harassed, I think, by soldiers too. So were they originally from South, or were they did they have to come down? The family. What's that? Oh, yeah, they were they were my yeah, my family is from South Korea.
+
+[4:40] So they didn't have to like flee down to the south. Oh, they fled, yeah. They walked all the way down the Pusan by foot and all kinds of hardship, yeah. Nice, like love hardship. We can't just mess with it.
+
+[4:52] So it's so wrong. So that's yeah, yeah. Oh god. God Dave, I mean, just such a low-body just ruining everything. Terrible, horrible.
+
+[5:00] Uh, if if I have a skill, it's to ruin everything. Yeah, yeah. So in it, like it was hilarious, also. So our translator in uh in China, she was like, Oh, I feel sorry for you know, I went to America, I just feel sorry for you guys with the food you have. This is one of the reasons we have a food museum.
+
+[5:15] And I was like, what are you talking about? So she comes to New York, she eats, swear to God, she eats at an Applebee's and a pizza hut, yeah, and is like, this is what American food is. She's like, you guys don't really have food, good food in America. I'm like, where you know, where do you eat? I ate at Applebee's.
+
+[5:35] I was like, uh you know what I mean? It's like although, to be fair, across the country, I mean, Applebee's is I mean, it's all over the place. Applebee's is widely consumed, but Applebee's I okay, okay. I've never actually been to an Apple Foundry. Applebee's like I mean, like there's Applebees and Applebee's.
+
+[5:51] Yeah, yeah. How was it? I mean, it's it's like every other restaurant like it. TJ Friday. Well, is it above or below a TJI Fridays?
+
+[5:57] I've been to an Olive Garden, so rate it in Olive Garden terms. I would say it's a a little better than Olive Garden. Better than that. What do you think, Dave? I don't know.
+
+[6:04] I feel like they're all kind of exactly the same. Well, Olive Garden basically is you have the salad and breadsticks and you have everything else. Yeah. Right. What I said, so uh macaroni grill, above or below Olive Garden.
+
+[6:15] I have no idea what that is. Never been there. So uh I had a guy I was talking with their corporate chef once, and he was like, dude, we don't even compare to Olive Garden. We're so far above Olive Garden. I'm like, all right, dude, all right, macaroni grill.
+
+[6:25] Like, first of all, who grills macaroni? Now you got me thinking, like, you're gonna make this like macaroni patties, like a mac and cheese patty that's somehow grillable. But yeah, macaroni. I've had fried macaroni and cheese. That's good.
+
+[6:36] Anyway, uh, point being uh then I was like, listen, if you really want like garbage American food, come back and I'll take you to Golden Corral, where they literally liken you to a cow. You know what I mean? Where you ever been to a golden corral? Nope. Man, that's in the commercial.
+
+[6:51] They have commercials up here? Or you went down south? No, they have commercials here. They have golden corrals up north, yeah. Oh, I don't I assume if they're running commercials, yeah, they must.
+
+[6:59] Anyway. Yeah, uh the chocolate fountain. Chocolate chocolate with like like how many levels of air quotes do you have to put around uh the word chocolate in the chocolate fountain? I hate chocolate fountains. Really?
+
+[7:10] Have you ever used a chocolate fountain? I have used a chocolate fountain, yeah. And uh what what do you hate about them besides for food or other purposes? Ooh, yeah. Um, I mean, they're just disgusting.
+
+[7:23] Anyway. It's just gross. You don't, yeah, it's not how you want to consume chocolate. This uh, this translator, like, I was like rattling off like all these like you know, kind of like you there's no American cuisine. I'm like, so I stick rattling up.
+
+[7:34] This is this is still a persistent myth uh around the world, which is kind of crazy. It is true. But the fact of the matter is the cafeteria food at the factory where I was, I was there for the spinzall. By the way, we just sent out an uh um an update. So those of you who are spinball spin spin ball spin spinzall backers, spin balls spinballs, spin balls is awesome.
+
+[7:52] Like that's a good pachinko machine. That's what we call the spinzall fans, their spinballs, spin ballers, spin ballers. So the uh we just sounded an update, so I got back from the factory. It was like super super good. It was really actually a good uh good meeting over the factory.
+
+[8:05] But the look in your email box. Nastasia should have sent you out an email this morning if you are a spinzall backer. Uh didn't get to go out. I was like working really a lot, so I didn't get to go out to do anything kind of like super fun or interesting when I was in China, but I did have some weird dishes. Check this out.
+
+[8:22] Uh Grouper in corn sauce. I told you last time I went to China, I was kind of surprised at how much kind of corn on the cob they eat over there. Those like coins of corn, right? Yeah, those coins of corn. But this one was the weirdest one ever.
+
+[8:33] It was, you know, cream corn, like American cream corn, right? Like, but this was like whole corn kernels that had given up some of their juice. It was like they'd slightly broken, but they were still like big full of corn kernels, so not like cream corn. In a corn, in acorn starch sauce. Whoa.
+
+[8:50] On grouper. Wow. On like medallions of grouper, I was like, that's weird. I'm gonna order that. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:56] I was like, that's crazy. And uh, I mean, I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not rushing to go get it. And plus, I was having it in in Shenzhen, and this place was focused a lot on uh kind of more like uh, you know, a lot a lot of people in in that area don't like kind of spicy or like even heavily salted food. So I'm just gonna bland. It was bland, but it was interesting.
+
+[9:21] Like I use someone could make a good thing like that. It was one of the spe chef's specialties. Also, like uh I had so I we ordered frog a different place. We ordered uh frog legs at this uh Hunan joint that we went to in Shenzhen, had some really delicious crayfish actually, really, really good crayfish. Uh and I hadn't had crayfish last time I was in China, so it could weird.
+
+[9:43] They chopped the tip of the head off, so you didn't have to do you could just literally suck the body out by just picking it up and go that's awesome. Yeah, but like you know, I was also like I couldn't help myself. You know, like uh I love opening any sort of like uh lobster or crayfish-shaped shellfish. I love opening it up like the front of one of those trucks. You know how those trucks the top lift off and you suck off, it was really good.
+
+[10:05] Because actually, I hate to say it, it's probably better than any crayfish or crawfish I've had down south. It was really good crawfish, not mealy, you know how sometimes crawfish goes mealy in the tail? Really good crawfish. Anyway, the frog's legs, the guy's like, I'm gonna order you frogs legs, thinking he's gonna freak me out. I'm like, I eat frogs' legs, you know what I mean?
+
+[10:23] And uh, but here's what's messed up. You know how like a lot of Chinese cuisine is hacked up with all the little bone pieces in, and you're supposed to sit there and kind of suck on it and spit out the parts of a small bones or whatever. Hacked up the frog's legs into tiny pieces. So then all you have is bone. Right?
+
+[10:40] Because a frog leg, I mean, you kind of need the bone there so that you can stick it in your mouth and go hoop boop. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's the motion of pulling the meat off of the frog. And but you can't.
+
+[10:50] So it's a lot of a lot of spitting. A lot of spitting out of bone pieces. Ugh. Yeah. Do they do that with like really small boned animals too, like um like quail.
+
+[11:01] I did not have a quail. I mean, obviously they do it with the larger, you know, what we would consider like your you know, average table animals. Yeah. Uh like. It's just like the whole quail, but they don't like it.
+
+[11:14] Not hacked up. Yeah. But like, yeah, all stuff all hacked up. And then like they do it also like so like I we had a fish stew with tiny with like okay. So like if you're someone serving you a fish head stew, which is delicious by the way, right?
+
+[11:26] Like, you hack up, you don't hack the fish head into tiny pieces because you need the structure so you can suck the meat off of like where the collar is and all that stuff. All hacked. So I was doing a lot of like spitting, and I'm not used to it, you know what I mean? Like this is this is all gonna be fodder for the video series I've been telling Dave to do, which is gonna be uh a whole you're doing it all wrong video series where he goes around the world telling people about how they're doing their traditional food wrong. See, here's the thing, China.
+
+[11:55] You're hacking up your fish heads, it is all wrong. You need the structure of the fish head to actually eat it. Like, see, this is uh Peter painting the absolute worst impression of me human. Hold on, let's rewind like five minutes. You were just chuckling at the idea of uh suffering from the Korean War.
+
+[12:09] So I think I have a little piece of it. Oh, counterpoint. Uh pound. No, but it's not that they're doing it wrong, it's just it's always interesting, like the the cultural the cultural uh differences. Also, like you ever notice, like uh like we've well, no, you didn't go there.
+
+[12:25] When we went there, it's like amazing amounts of sauce, like broth and sauce left in the bottom of the bowl, and no one was none of the locals were consuming it. Weird. It's just they leave it there. I'm like, what's up? And they're like, Yeah, we what are you gonna do?
+
+[12:40] That's like very highly flavored. What are you gonna do? Eat that? I'm like, uh, yeah. You know?
+
+[12:45] I did the unthinkable. I actually made all of the Chinese people avert their eyes while I put the broth over the rice. Huh. Made them avert their eyes because I knew it would offend them horribly. So I don't know, man.
+
+[12:56] That that wouldn't happen in Korea. I mean just sort of tip the bowl. Yeah. Drink it. Yeah.
+
+[12:59] Right. Yeah. Had Korean food in China actually once. Yeah. You said it was just like Korean food here.
+
+[13:05] Just like Korean food here. Only I was in China. Yeah. Yeah. Um anyway, so that was fun.
+
+[13:11] I did not get to eat out in Hong Kong really very much at all, which is kind of sad because they have such amazing street food. You know what's terrible in Hong Kong? At least where I was the water. The water is healthy, but tastes like like a fish tank. It's just like you know that slightly moldy, that slightly moldy smell of a freshwater fish tank.
+
+[13:34] You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Sun early. Like that.
+
+[13:37] Or like, you know, that thermos that you really shouldn't have used again. That you know that? You're like, I found my I found my thermos from uh elementary school. I'm gonna use that. And then it like has that like little bit of like mold funk that was in there that never goes away.
+
+[13:52] That's Hong Kong water. And in the morn uh at the hotel anyway, and then in the morning they make they made their coffee with that water without filtering it. Oh man. Fishy coffee. Oh yeah, like like fish fish tank coffee.
+
+[14:05] That's just not right. But why are you saying it's good for you? No, it's not bad for you. It's not unhealthy. Yeah, like it's it's well treated.
+
+[14:12] Like, you know, whereas in Shenzhen, they told me, Don't drink the water. But the water smelled fantastic. You know what I mean? But I I and the coffee with it tasted fine. And the tea with it tasted fine.
+
+[14:22] But like they said, but the water pressure I had in my hotel in Shenzhen was, by the way, the best, highest water pressure I've ever had in my life. Because they they must be like crap on the earth. There's n not only is there no restriction, but like I was being beaten into the floor of my shower by the pressure of the water. I was like, I was like, Oh my god, this is amazing. I wish that we didn't have to care about the earth.
+
+[14:45] You know what I mean? Because it was just like hot. Just like I could I love the idea of you being pinned against the wall. Yeah, boom. And it was like, oh amazing, amazing.
+
+[14:56] Anyways. So maybe we should get to some uh maybe we should get to some questions here. You have anything uh interesting to talk about? Museum-wise? Anything?
+
+[15:04] Anything with the museum? Do you want to talk about what the next exhibit's gonna be? You can't talk about what the next exhibition is. We can't, why? No.
+
+[15:09] We're not why we no, we're not talking about it. Why not? Because that has to be something that we offer to the press. You know, you're horrible at this kind of the press. Yeah.
+
+[15:20] Oh. We're a media outlet. Oh, see what I'm talking about? You you ever give uh you ever give Dave any love? You ever give the Heritage Radio Network?
+
+[15:29] You guys are awesome. Okay, so we want the times. We want the times. You know, next it's gonna be like we want like, you know, uh what's the like what's the worst what's the worst media outlet you could think of? Like just the lowest quality media outlets.
+
+[15:41] They're asking me to to sh like crap on a a media outlet. Yeah. No. I mean it's gotta be Breitbart, right? Yeah, yeah, there you go.
+
+[15:47] Yeah, yeah. Peter would rather give Breitbart the scoop than you, Dave. How about that? Hurts, man. Hurts.
+
+[15:54] Right? Yeah. All right, here's some questions. Uh Dave Hammer, who's not here. Uh David and Peter, if applicable.
+
+[16:01] So you got you got an if you're a little bit more. Foresight for having been our questioner. Yeah. Thanks for all the hard work you do to produce an enjoyable show. It's my dream someday to go to Brooklyn and eat some Roberta's pizza.
+
+[16:11] Well, it's right here. I'm watching someone almost. Oh, then maybe they just ate the pizza. They're paying their check. Yeah.
+
+[16:15] How do they look? They look happy. They look like they belong here. There's a there's a like next to this one lady not from around here. Next to this one lady right by her head is that weird kind of it looks like a breath mark, like she's been like breathing on the glass, but it's also looks like it could be like like an oil stain, like someone shot someone in the head whose head was made of oil.
+
+[16:33] Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yep, yeah. See that? Yeah.
+
+[16:36] Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. Uh anyway. Uh I thought a recent Reddit post on uh Sue Vied warrants your comment.
+
+[16:43] I will provide the link below. Some comments are definitely worth reading. But here's the main post text as well. Now, uh full disclosure, I did not get to read all of the comments or like Reddits or subreddits. Are you into the whole Reddit thing?
+
+[16:53] Do you understand Reddit? I do not understand Reddit. I don't Dave, do you understand Reddit? Uh barely. You're not a I'm not active on it, but I will read stories on it once in a while.
+
+[17:04] It's one of those things where like it's where people go to gripe when they don't have a forum to gripe about things, right? I mean, what's it for? I've seen like in depth discussions of like things happening in the news and people tend to really get into it. But they come in of existence and out of existence, right? I mean, they're always there, but like they like pop in and then become how did they I don't understand how it works.
+
+[17:25] I don't know, I don't I don't get it. Someone tell me, someone tell me. Uh chat room. Alabama aviator writes, dry now uh I did see the beginning of it. So uh this person, Alabama Aviator, was uh working with a ribeye.
+
+[17:38] So let's just say that the the that the stake he he or he or she is referring to in this uh thing is a ribeye steak. Dry brine the steak overnight with a liberal dusting of kosher salt. This morning, rub the steak with fish sauce, 3% by weight, does not specify which fish sauce, uh, and vacuum seal the steak for a few hours to let it work its magic. Then uh I fired up the ANOVA to a hundred and get this 103 degrees Fahrenheit and cook for 90 minutes. Next step was 115 degrees Fahrenheit for an hour, and then doing 129 degrees Fahrenheit for two hours.
+
+[18:13] The idea here is that between the fish sauce and the low temps at the start, activate the same enzymes that happen with weeks of dry aging. The low heat, uh, but still much warmer than a fridge environment, essentially takes the process down from weeks to a day or two. The result was mind-blowing, so tender, and that mild funky taste that comes with proper dry aging. And then uh Aaron, this is from Aaron. Aaron's like, any thoughts or concerns with that kind of technique?
+
+[18:34] Well, okay. Clearly, Alabama Aviator didn't die, right? Because they wrote that post. So they're not dead. Uh however, I would never be able to recommend a procedure um like that.
+
+[18:51] First of all, let's just look at dry aging, right? So remember the the there's wet aging and there's dry aging. In both wet aging and dry aging, you can allow the enzymes that are present in meat to kind of do their magic to tenderize over uh a large length of time. The the advantages in dry aging are also that you have um uh you don't get what's called confinement flavor, which is the kind of smell. You mean when you open up a bag that's been sealed for a long time, you get that like kind of nasty, like like nasty smell.
+
+[19:27] Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. It's called confinement flavor, uh confinement aroma. And it's like from the bag and it flashes off. It's because there are bacteria that are growing in there that are producing, they're not gonna kill you, but they're they're producing some funky stuff that will is typically fairly volatile and will flash off.
+
+[19:42] So you don't notice it once it's been allowed to air itself out and to and when you cook it. So there's that. Uh also in dry aging, you typically lose a good amount of water. So you are intensifying the flavors. So there's two things that are intensifying the flavor in dry aging meat.
+
+[19:59] One is that you are um actually breaking down the protein and protein breakdown products are more flavorful, right? Uh and you're also getting riding getting rid of water, which is concentrating the flavor because you're getting rid of water. So uh I guess this is like back in the day when people hadn't figured out how to do uh post-finishing on um sous vide stuff, and so everyone was just pulling stuff directly out of the bag and serving it, which is nasty, right? They would do things like dump soy over the top, or in this case, like fish sauce over the top, because what you're doing when you do that is you're adding uh protein breakdown products, and in the case of fish sauce, like straight up funk, you're a fish sauce fan, right? I love fish sauce.
+
+[20:42] I'm like the Christopher Walken of fish sauce. More fish sauce, ding dink dink dink. Uh you want more cowbell, you know more cowbell. Yeah, of course. Anyway, so the um what you're doing here is uh trying to substitute some of the funkiness of dry aging with uh fish sauce, but I don't see them as similar kind of funks, right?
+
+[21:02] There's not the fat oxidation products that you get out of uh dry aging in uh in a fish sauce. So I'm I'm always I'm never ever a fan of saying that something is the same as something else. I think you can just say something is delicious, but saying it's the same as dry aging, I just don't buy it, right? Because it's not exactly the same kind of procedure that's going on. Now, secondly, the idea of uh having a steak getting a ribeye, this is getting salted for that length of time, I have my issues with because in most of the tests that I have run, I find that it's not a tenderness issue, but the the actual fibers themselves are more springy and taste more cured when something has been salted for a long time and it's meant to be eaten like a steak as opposed to a braise.
+
+[21:47] Now I'm reassessing, as I said, some of that uh information in light of what salt is doing to the connective tissue as opposed to what it's doing to the muscle fibers themselves. But in general, uh if you're gonna store something for a long time, like on the order of a couple of days, I tend, and it's something like a ribeye, I tend to not want to salt it because I prefer the texture of steak that hasn't that hasn't gone through that. This is not tenderness, it's just a textural difference. So, like you know, I have my kind of issues there. Um lastly, is this temperature regime where you're clearly incubating uh whatever happens to be now, unless the salt level is high enough on the surface of the meat and along with the fish sauce, the salt level is high enough such that you're not going to have any problems at all, right?
+
+[22:35] Um it's not uh but it's not a good place to keep meat for that long. I did look up uh, by the way, your and and here's the thing like um the data I was able to find for growing, for instance, botulism toxin, botulinum toxin on meats, you're not gonna get any uh substantial growth on the on the studies that I was able to look up in less than about 10 hours. So this is going to be safe in terms of when it's growing. However, let's say you cook it and then chill it down again. You've created a large number of vegetative cells if they're present.
+
+[23:08] If you create a large number of vegetative cells, you're also then creating a large number of uh spores as you go through the point at which you uh kill the vegetative cells, which means you have a higher load of spores than you would otherwise. And so any further degradation you have uh on storage, if you don't serve it right away, are gonna be compounded, right? So, you know, technically, in the in the you know, in the um in the post, I think if you add everything up, it's fine because it's under four hours until it gets to its its pasteurization temperatures. But um, you know, it's just something to something to think about. Uh if you're gonna serve it right away, I'd say it's probably not that big of a deal.
+
+[23:50] But if you're gonna do a cook chill is when I start worrying more about that kind of a practice. Uh 129, do you know what that is? No, no, no. I don't know what that is. Botulism won't grow above about 50 degrees.
+
+[24:03] Uh anything above 52 when you're killing almost all pathogens, uh, and and you know, anything above that is kind of gravy, but he's like he or she is also not cooking it long enough to do a full pasteurization step when they take it up to 129. So whatever. So I'm gonna say probably won't hurt chew, but is like on the edge of what like I could, for instance, recommend. Although I will try it because I am writing a book on it and it's still, you know, I have time to test this out. Uh other thing I will say um is that at these temperatures, at these lower end spectrum temperatures, you do have a chance, right now, what is it, one in a hundred?
+
+[24:41] I don't know. It happens to me every once in a while of incubating bacteria that are not pathenogenic, but that do ruin your food. And when you open that, it's not a pleasant funk. It's like blue cheesy, nasty, off. You get you get bags that blow off.
+
+[24:57] And every once in a while I have people writing into cooking issues asking about it, and it has happened to me, but it's unpredictable. Uh so I just throw those bags away. If you open a bag and it smells bad, you throw it away. And from best I can tell, uh it's not necessarily I mean, like it always happens when you're working in the lower temperature ranges, and it always happens when the bag has been kept uh for a long period uh before it gets up to pasteurization temperatures, but you could be incubating some um, you know, some bacteria that can survive at higher temperatures that aren't necessarily human pathogens, but are spoilage bacteria. And so that's just something to think about as well.
+
+[25:33] Yeah. I don't know, blue teasy meat could be good. It's horrible. I once uh they uh we did a uh we're doing a low temperature sous vide class at uh the French culinary, and back then everyone was really worried about uh vacuum uh packing, and it was very hard to get a hasset program, so there weren't a lot of people that had done it yet, right? So there wasn't like a good like a workflow for getting a hasset plan.
+
+[25:55] So a lot of times we would circulate directly in oil. And the other good thing about circulating directly in oil is that at service time you're not effing about with bags. You just go into the oil with tongs, you pull it out, and you drop it. And back in the day, even though they weren't recommended to you know, Philip Preston never recommended that you do it, you know, we were using the stainless steel old school poly science circulator, so you could pretty well, you know, the everything touching it was okay with oil, right? Uh no plastics, no nothing.
+
+[26:23] So then you just go in with tongs, you pull it out, and then you do your finish. So it's incredibly convenient if you're doing a lot of units in a night, right? Not so convenient for homework, but incredibly convenient uh for doing a bunch of units in terms of like speed of pulling it out and lack of bags and all that nonsense. Um where are they going with this? What were you asking me?
+
+[26:42] What'd you say? Blue cheese. Oh yeah. So we did a whole uh bunch of uh pork with the skin on. So we're doing the low temperature on the entire uh thing, and then we're gonna fry crisp up the skin later, doing like bellies belly style, right?
+
+[26:57] Like uh, and um the oil is so thick, right, that it did and when if you ever circulate uh pork in oil or in lard, right, for a long time, you'll notice that you get some fat fractionation. So you'll get like crystals of higher temperature fat growing like stalagmites on top of things and like occluding different areas, but because we weren't getting necessarily a hundred percent well, we weren't getting 100% circulation around it. Um I measured it the next day because of what I'm about to tell you, and it was a good five degrees cooler in these stagnant places than it was uh it was, and that was enough to take me into incubation zone. And in the incubation zone, where instead of being like you know, in the in the mid to high 50s, it was like 50, the entire room stank. Not like a mixture of imagine blue cheese, so now you've offended uh a bunch of people, possibly in Asia, mixed with stinky tofu.
+
+[27:55] So now you've offended all the Westerners. And so, like, it's just all offensive. There's no kind of right smell to it. You know what I mean? It's just wrong.
+
+[28:03] So we had to do that. There's somebody in like Kazakhstan who's like, hmm. Mmm, delicious. Delicious. Yeah.
+
+[28:10] Or, like, you know, we said before, like uh salt rising bread is uh Clostridium perfringians um uh culture, as I believe is some of the redded cassava in your in your favorite uh cameroon. You like that smell, right? When you're used to it, when you're used to it, when you're when someone coming and saying it. But when you walk into a room with pork ain't nobody wanting to eat that. And so, like, you know, I was like, sorry, folks.
+
+[28:32] You know what I mean? It's horrible. It was horrible. You ever like you ever like work on something, you have something planned like for like you know, days in advance, it's all there, and then you it's just all garbage. Yeah.
+
+[28:42] It's terrible. Anyway, so blue cheese meat. Blue cheese on meat, good. Blue cheese mixed with butter, like melting into a steak, good. Yeah.
+
+[28:54] Good. Okay. Uh this is in from Dan in Chicago. Uh cooking issues crew. What time is it, by the way?
+
+[29:02] We're going to go. 12 34. Yeah. Do a break after this. You want to do a break now, just get it over with?
+
+[29:07] Uh if you want, sure. All right, we'll do a break. We'll come right back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm.
+
+[29:31] The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's gonna grow into a plant.
+
+[29:53] It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour.
+
+[30:13] When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it.
+
+[30:37] Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains. Learn more at Bob's Red Mill.com slash podcast. I have Bob's red mill products in in my kitchen at this at this very moment. Oh, what do you love most about them? What I honestly, honestly, what I like the most is that is that you can tell someone to use a product and they can go into a supermarket uh and buy it.
+
+[31:06] I think that's the best aspect of it. I think it's a high quality product produced honestly at a price that everybody can afford. I know. Actually, one of my colleagues met him. He's on the wall behind you.
+
+[31:20] Yeah, yeah. And so Peter's like maybe you want to invest in a museum, Bob. You know what I mean? Speaking of, uh well, let's get to get these questions out of the way, and then we'll we'll we'll talk eggs. Peter was wanting to talk eggs uh in the in the break.
+
+[31:31] Oh, I love eggs too. Who doesn't I mean like I think like you're pretty much a low quality individual if you don't like eggs. I mean, there are people who don't eat it because of veganism. Uh there are people who don't eat it or who can't eat it. Yeah, well, then there's also people who are okay with just eating egg whites.
+
+[31:44] They're bad people. That's an enemy of quality. And that's a that's not an uncommon thing. That is a common menu substitution option of going to the city. Yeah.
+
+[31:54] That was like the basis of a whole episode of Seinfeld, wasn't it? Like he couldn't get an egg white omelet and it was like a problem. Well, thank God. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean?
+
+[32:01] Like egg white omelet is the enemy. It's the enemy. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[32:07] It's uh do you watch uh Parks and Wreck? No. Uh so Dax has started watching Parks and Wreck, and the you know, the the character um uh Nick uh Offerman, right? No, he uh the character he plays, he uh he says, uh I hate I hate uh low-fat milk because it's water lying about being milk. I was like, strong.
+
+[32:30] Yeah. Strong. He's like, the only thing I hate more than liars is non-fat milk because it's milk, it's water lying about being milk, which is true. And same thing goes with an egg white omelet, it's not an omelet. Yeah.
+
+[32:41] And you can't make an omelet with egg whites, it's not an omelet. I don't want to get into definitional things because I don't want to get in this kind of definitional like, you know, tirade that we always get into. But I mean, I'm sorry. It matters. Egg yolk.
+
+[32:55] You know, they're they're both awesome. The white is awesome for I don't know, angeled food cake, which I really like. Yeah, you know what I mean? Meringues. Yeah.
+
+[33:02] Well, yeah, age food cake, meringues, all that stuff. It's good, it's amazing. But like, you know, on its own as an omelet, that just don't cut it. Yeah, in egg form, they should not be separated. Right.
+
+[33:12] Yeah, do you beat an egg white omelet? What do you mean? To make it fluffy? No, that's like a that's like a reason. No, you beat someone who orders one.
+
+[33:19] That's like oh dang. That was bump set, and then yeah, they just spiked that one home. I love it. Yeah, nice. I like your volleyball reference.
+
+[33:28] Yeah. Yeah, it's summertime. Oh my can you imagine anything like more horrific than like beach volleyball? Like I think volley like I like all that sand everywhere. To play or to watch.
+
+[33:40] Play. I don't know. Like, I don't know. There was an article, was it in the New Yorker uh recently about sand and how there's a particular kind of sand that you have to use for a beach volleyball that uh like allows you to play in a particular way. Really?
+
+[33:51] Yeah, there's all these sand specifications for like shapes, angles, sizes. I hate running in sand. I'm that guy that if I have to be on the beach, which is a nightmare for me, like a huge nightmare for me. I'm a vampire. I like being near the beach.
+
+[34:05] I like the ocean. I don't like sand. I don't like sand like like I don't like putting shoes on after I've been at the beach. I don't like the sand in the car on the way out of the beach. Like it anyways, I'm that guy smiling faces.
+
+[34:19] Oh, this is the worst. Yeah, the smiling faces. I hate that. I like like I like going to the beach for functional things. Like I like to get clams, I like to harvest mussels and whelks.
+
+[34:30] Uh I like getting crabs. So the beach is purely for foraging. Yeah. That's right. I like there are many beachside greens that I also enjoy.
+
+[34:38] You're like, you know what I mean? There's like uh there's beach plums, there's beach uh there's rose hips at the beach. There's all sorts of things I like about. Being in the freaking jellyfish? What do you mean?
+
+[34:55] Yeah, you've used the floor. Anyway, so like I like kelp. Uh I like the actual being in the ocean is fine. It's fine. But like I'm that guy that if I have to be on the beach, I walk immediately to the hard pack sand that's right by the water so that I don't have to have all that sand.
+
+[35:13] And imagine like when you're playing beach like running in soft sand is a freaking nightmare. Yeah. I guess you gotta be in good shape. Why would you do that if you weren't in the military? Or you're playing freaking beach volleyball where you're running around on dry sand.
+
+[35:26] You're not really running though. You're just kind of like shuffling around. Wow. Getting some hate now. Yeah.
+
+[35:32] Wow. I'm not saying it's not a sport. I'm just saying you're not like you're not all out running. Just shuffle around ball. Do you know what takes some more energy than you'd think is uh race car driving.
+
+[35:43] Yeah. Not that I've done it, but I've got to be. Do you want to put some bets on whether uh Dave Arnold gets to two questions today or you're such a jerk, man? Maybe like somewhere somewhere Nastasia is frowning. Yeah.
+
+[35:56] No, all the time, everywhere Nastasia is frowning. Yeah, at this rate, Dave, you'll answer all the questions that have been asked. All right, listen, listen, Dan. What year? Oh yeah.
+
+[36:03] Come on now. Dan, this is why people like when you're on, because like you give and you get. First of all, like I always say, now you're preventing me from asking this car. I was trying to do it and you stopped me. That's what's brilliant about it.
+
+[36:14] But the that's true. No, no, no. You can use Peter Kim as your crutch. I can and just did. But the uh the like people who give out crap to people need to be able to take it, right?
+
+[36:26] Right? Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. All right.
+
+[36:29] Uh for a couple of years I've been using a rubber-made commercial food storage container as a sous vide vessel that I purchased on Amazon. The Amazon description for this product says made of clear, break resistant. I like break resistance. Some lawyer was like, Oh, don't call it the unbreakable or break call it break resistant. Everything is resist breaking, dude, unless it unless it's a Jenga tower, things resist breaking.
+
+[36:52] Such a dumb. I hate the language that I'm gonna have to use in the spins all manual. I absolutely hate it. Yeah, and I can't wait to wield it back at you. I know, you're gonna make fun of him like the lawyers made me say it, the lawyers made me say it.
+
+[37:03] You know what I mean? Can I can I real quick just say I love how every impression you do is just like some stereotypical Italian New Yorker? Oh yeah. Like no matter what, no matter who or where. And sometimes he does stereotypical Jewish like mother.
+
+[37:15] What? Yeah. Well, mother. Oh yes. Well, whatever.
+
+[37:18] Yeah. Whatever. It's like, you know, you imitate who you're, you know, around, I guess. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[37:24] Whatever. But the Oh. Anyways. Uh the Amazon description for this product says made of clear, break resistant polycarbonate. It is also BPA free.
+
+[37:36] Uh, we'll come back to this. I've recently been told that it is not possible for polycarbonate to be BPA free. Is this true? Have I been duped by Rubber Made and Amazon? Additionally, if the container does contain BPA, has the food I've been using uh sous v eating still been exposed to the BPA as long as the vacuum bags did not also contain BPA.
+
+[37:56] Dan from Chicago. It's an interesting question. Uh first of all, uh I have to have to get this out of my head because uh whenever someone says rubber made, there's a store, was a store in New Haven that sold um uh drug paraphernalia and waterbeds, and it was called rubber match. And they're the commercial was always like rub a match. And so like like on TV, like they bought those like local access things, and if they they have all of their stuff, rub a match.
+
+[38:22] So I read that anytime anyone says rubber made, anyone who grew up in like New Haven in like the eighties or nineties will know what I'm talking about. Rubamade. So that's why whenever anyone says rubber made, I have to say that to myself. Well you like fill up your bong from the waterbed? Uh man, I don't know, man.
+
+[38:37] Uh the last thing you want is someone high out of their mind on a waterbed, like because they're gonna get something sharp and they're gonna stab that freaking waterbed. And uh someone I know, I mean I wonder whether it was Jen, my wife, like knew someone whose waterbed ruptured and like leaked all over everything. It was a nightmare because it went through the floor. Plus, they weigh literally like a ton. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:59] Well, I've never been on a waterbed. I have, yeah. I miss waterbeds. You missed it? You like you're a waterbed fan?
+
+[39:05] No, no, it's just interesting. They're novelty. I wouldn't want to sleep on one. No? What about you, Dave?
+
+[39:09] You ever been on one? Not for decades. Do they even make them anymore? I don't know. Someone have to find out if rub a match is still in business and call up.
+
+[39:18] They're gonna have to have a resurgence, right? Yeah, you know what would be cool is if you had a um what's it called? You know, like a cornstarch slurry bed? So that you can. Uh uh, it's called a ublek.
+
+[39:27] Oblek, yeah, an ublek bed. An ubleck bed. That'd be pretty sweet. Oh, Peter, that you could make that. You Peter Peter Kim's Ublek beds.
+
+[39:33] Yeah. Come on down and get Peter Kim's Ublek beds. 100% Ublek. Only the best Ooblek all around. Yeah, you could be like, get like some sort of like uh a rancher, oobleck, ooblek, ooblek, oobleck.
+
+[39:43] Like you know, like calling like a like a I'm gonna get an ooblek, ooblek. You know who should we get? We should get we should get uh Hearst uh Hearst uh ranch, Hearst Ranch Oublek beds. That'd be amazing. Like he could use only uh abattoir with uh ooblek bed.
+
+[39:59] You know what I mean? Get the cow to walk on ublek real slow as well. Imagine like you like jump on the bed, like ow, and then ah uh well so for instance, for those of you that don't know what ooblek is, you mix cornstarch with water, and uh if you stir it very slowly, it's uh it's a liquid. Uh I forget the the Newtonium uh what is it? Is it bingham plastic?
+
+[40:18] I forget what what it is, but then if you go quickly onto it, it's solid. So the the like it the it's crazy. You know what I mean? So like this, you if you look up Ooblek and uh swimming pool, there are swimming pools full of ublek, and people will run across them like it's dry land, but if you stand still, you just go. Yeah, ooblek.
+
+[40:39] That's what it's called, right? Yeah, ooh bleck, that's right. Yeah, all right. Uh so back to the actual question. We are gonna answer at least the gonna get the two questions.
+
+[40:45] I gotta do it. We're already on the second question. Maybe I won't answer it, but we're already on the second question. So already I've I've I've succeeded. So the uh here's an interesting thing about polycarbonate.
+
+[40:55] Uh literally, polycarbonate is made of two things: BPA and phos gene, right? So for those of you that don't remember uh your World War I history, phos gene was the uh chemical um the chemical agent that caused the most uh deaths, uh chemical warfare agent that caused the most deaths, much more than mustard gas, uh during World War One. So you have uh bisphenol A, which is uh BPA, which is an endocrine disruptor, right? That's why people don't want you to use it. It's an endocrine disruptor.
+
+[41:29] Uh and you mix that with a chemical uh weapon and you get polycarbonate. Now, uh I hate hate when people say that you take two things that are bad on their own and put them together and they're necessarily still bad, right? Uh, because there are many situations where uh two bad things put together become inert, right? And there's also situations where two good things put together become dangerous. Uh I the the the vein of thought uh like that that I hate the most is like uh there's a book called Deconstructing Twinkies.
+
+[42:02] Remember this book? In it, and they listed all the ingredients in Twinkies, and this is what all the press picked up on, and they were like, This ingredient, I forget what it was, like I forget what it was. Is also used in explosives. You know what I mean? Oh, I hate that.
+
+[42:18] I hate that. This is also used as an antifreeze. Yeah. Yeah. Salt's an anti-freeze.
+
+[42:22] Yeah, right. Right. That's like, you know, what we said, I think it was last week, where you know, uh, people say, I hate it. I hate it. I hate that kind of argument.
+
+[42:30] It's stupid, it's ridiculous. Uh the world would be better if uh reporters and everyone just ignored any sort of argument that started with uh that kind of a uh thing. Now, if someone said, I took a plastic explosive and put it into your Twinkie, I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, right? But not that they like that they used an ingredient that's also used in plastic explosives in a Twinkie. To me, that's like a non that's non-information.
+
+[42:55] Also, Twinkies are delicious. You know, I'll say have you had Twinkie in the past ten years? No. Okay. Twinkies are a great memory.
+
+[43:02] Yeah. Twinkies could be delicious. A sponge cake filled with cream is theoretically delicious. Yes. Okay.
+
+[43:11] Uh uh, if you have a Twinkie now, you will still enjoy it because of your childhood memories. But if you handed Twinkie to a third party that didn't grow up with Twinkies and expect them, if they have adult taste to think that it is a well-made thing, they'll be like, nah. Yeah. Fair? Uh I don't know.
+
+[43:30] I guess. Yeah. I mean, I love them. Yeah. Uh I love the idea of them.
+
+[43:33] I'll have to try giving one to my wife. Oh, she'll hate it. She's French. Yeah. She she did not like s'mores.
+
+[43:39] I remember the first time I was like, French, man. So excited to show her the s'mores and they're the worst. I mean, as French goes, she's she's southern, so she's okay, right? Northern, northern. She's northern.
+
+[43:48] I thought she came from down near uh the Oh, that's where she went to school. She went to school in the south. No, not at all. Didn't she go? I think you said over by Chak Shoes down there in the uh where was she?
+
+[43:57] Why did she why'd you say she hung out down there and had the immature walnuts and Carthusian mountains, all that crap? I can't remember. Whatever. I thought she spent time in Grenoble, no? Oh yeah, right.
+
+[44:06] Grenoble, yes. That's in the south. Yeah, but she's from the north. All right. Well, anyway, if she's not Parisian.
+
+[44:11] Yes. Anyway. But so uh does she also hate peanut butter? She no, she likes peanut butter. Really?
+
+[44:17] But not on like not as a sandwich. Well, as what? Yeah. What does she like it as? I can't remember.
+
+[44:23] Well, you have peanut butter at home up there. Does she like Welch's grape jelly? I don't know. Does she enjoy Wonderbread for what it's good at? Uh she does not like Wonder Bread.
+
+[44:33] Even for what it's good at? Which is for you. For me, grilled grilled cheese. Grilled cheese, PB and J's, and I hate to say this, people. Listen, the BLT.
+
+[44:41] Well, no, the French, generally speaking, don't understand PB and J as a sandwich concept. Yeah, because they they're not willing to go outside of what they know to be what they want to try to put themselves in the in the shoes of someone else. You know what I'm saying? I think Dave in high school was beat up by a bunch of like French ruffians. I am always had some kind of I used to be a francophone.
+
+[45:05] There were a bunch of French mimes that's the first time. I used to speak. I'm I have no problem with uh I you know I love French food, French culture. I like peep the people. Yeah, French are fine.
+
+[45:16] They're okay. Okay, all right. You know, I just am saying. All right, why don't we talk some uh some uh bipe uh what uh so uh that's uh Peter pulling out like you know like Macron? No, I would use the the French accent from here on out uh just to uh aggravate you.
+
+[45:31] Give me some macron, yeah. Yeah, yes. Give me some Macron. Yeah. You give me the back of the throat.
+
+[45:37] Um so it's made of uh bisphenol A and phosgene. Uh but the the theory is is that when you put it all together, there's no more free BPA. So what they do in food-grade polycarbonate is they uh make sure that it's all polymerized and that there's no free BPA left, and that's kind of the thing. And these um the food grade things are tested for this, right? They're tested for the levels of free BPA.
+
+[46:08] So presumably if they're saying it's BPA free, they're meaning that it not does not have any free BPA. Let me give you an example. Glass is made of sand, right? So if you have glass and it's clear, I would say, yes, that glass is sand-free, even though it's made of sand. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[46:27] Uh but where the analogy breaks down is that unlike glass, which doesn't revert to stand unless it's been pounded by the ocean for a long, long time, uh polycarbonate can break down under uh uh uh regimens of high temperature or in the presence of uh alc alkaline detergents or in the presence of sometimes under uh high ultraviolet radiation, it can start to break down and then can leach uh free BPA. And so there's a lot of um testing that's been done saying that uh high temperatures uh in in BPA causes leaching, uh, etc. etc. And there was one study, well-known study in like uh oh nine or something like this, 08, 09, 10, 2010, uh where they uh literally like gave a bunch of students BPA water bottles with cold water and measured their the the excretion rate of the BPA byproducts you know over the course and showed like a an increase in in their levels versus people that didn't have it. Now, if you search BPA polycarbonate, the uh BPA like uh institute like bought like all of the good Google search analytics.
+
+[47:35] So the first like five things that you see are bought and paid for by the polycarbonate in the BPA industry. So kind of got to take that with a with a grain of uh with a grain of bisphenol A. But like you know their point is that even if that is true that the level of leaching is far below what is recognized as a dangerous amount. Now the people who say there are people who say that there is no known safe amount of endocrine disruptor I don't know. What I will say is is that you shouldn't wash polycarbonate stuff in um the dishwasher probably uh and if you know if it's going to be used uh for food grade but I don't know where I come I don't know where I come down on the on the bisphenol A.
+
+[48:15] So you haven't been duped oh and by the way the studies so they did a study that showed that like you know mouse prostates get all messed up and there's all sorts of problems with mice who were being fed uh water out of uh polycarbonate bottles and the pro-bisphenol industry points out this is pointed out correctly whether or not this is it's obviously self-serving that uh rat bottles aren't made out of food grade polycarbonate they're made out of a cheaper grade of polycarbonate and a lot of the art to making plastic resins is ensuring that you have full polymerization so that there's no free BPA. Well in that case BPA there's also you know anything else like a food grade silicone rubber you're sure that there's not a lot of monomer sitting around and and this so it's an art, and then these things are tested. So, for instance, the plastics, we're not using any polycarbonate in the um spinzole. We're using a resin called triton that is not made out of BPA, but uh any anything like that that you put into a food uh item, you send to an independent testing lab to test the material to ensure that it doesn't have any compounds in it that um are not allowed by the FDA for food contact. So it doesn't happen in rat bottles.
+
+[49:26] Uh and so that that's what they that's what they point out. So short answer, I don't know. Uh the long answer is, I mean, the the the answer to your specific question, which is uh your stuff's in a bag anyway, do I need to worry about it? I'd say no. You're probably, I mean, if you're in an if you're in a zippy, you're in um polyethylene, and I'm uh it's gotta be a decent barrier to it, and you're talking about like watering it down and then watering it down a further.
+
+[49:54] Think about this. In a water bottle, you have a very low uh volume uh surface area to volume ratio because water bottles are relatively small. In a large uh rub made container, you have a very large volume for your unit of surface area, and the leaching of uh BPA into it's gonna depend on the particular polycarbonate that you have, its particular condition, whether it's been broken down by uh uh damage, UV, temperature, detergent, uh, and then also the temperature, the temperature of the water that you're putting into it, and also the surface area that you have uh per unit water. Uh so all of those things are gonna come into into play. So I'd say you're fine, especially with the polyethylene.
+
+[50:35] If you're using an actual vacuum bag with multi-layered uh stuff where you have like uh possibly polyethylene and then possibly nylon, I'd say, you know, don't worry about it. What do you think, Peter? Hey, hey man. Yeah, endoquin disruptors. Yeah.
+
+[50:48] Okay. Brian writes in. Uh I keep hearing Dave talk uh about his take on Idli. What's your secret? How do you make it?
+
+[50:56] What variations do you bring to it? Do you use an idly uh do you use uh Italy baskets slash molds from the Indian market? Thanks, Brian. Uh I do. I do use those molds.
+
+[51:05] Uh Peter and I actually went to um the uh Ganesh Temple out there in Queens to try because apparently this is like the best uh kind of doses and uh idlies you can get in New York City. What do you think? Yeah, it was a tranquil morning and randomly at like 9 a.m. two guys storm in, make a beeline to the counter and order everything on the menu. Everything.
+
+[51:30] But I have to say, their paper dosa was sick. That was crazy good. It was crazy good. So and so that guy gave me some tips. So for Idli, for Idley batter, I use uh so for those of you that don't know, uh or you know, to to paraphrase NWA for all for all you who aren't hip to the fact, but I can't actually say the rest of the rhyme because it's not good.
+
+[51:49] But the uh so the the idlies are like spongy uh little steamed uh cakes. Yeah. Cakes. Yeah, mini pancakes. Yeah, yeah, that that are uh ooh, pancake.
+
+[52:02] I never think of a pancake as a cake. Like you would never be like, I'm gonna have, you know, you want some cake? Yeah. Here you go. You'd be like, what?
+
+[52:10] Yeah. I never think of uh red mill as a mill. Oh no, don't get me started. So anyway, so you have uh these little cakes, uh, and uh they're kind of spongy, they're steamed, they're moist, um, they're they're they're gluten free, right? Uh because they're not made with gluten uh and or not made with uh you know anything that has gluten.
+
+[52:31] Um, and they're typically eaten as a uh as a breakfast. So uh in the south of India. Okay. So the way you're supposed to make them, and I think very few people make them like this now. Most people I think buy a mix or they use a uh flour and then they add some leavening agent to it.
+
+[52:49] But the way you're supposed to do it is you're supposed to take um uh idly rice or at least a portion of idli rice, which is parcooked rice, right? Some people put in regular, not parcooked rice, but you know, most people like to add some parcooked parboiled rice to it. Uh and the one I use is a short grain, it's called idly rice, it's actually pretty expensive as rice goes. Uh use that and you soak it, right? Then you use uh uh urod dal, which is the black gram.
+
+[53:17] And uh I've done it both ways. I've used a pre-hauled stuff, I've hauled stuff that I've soaked. I've also used it with leaving the black hole on. I actually liked it with the black hole on. Uh, and then you can, if you want to, add also soaked fenigreek seeds, you know.
+
+[53:32] Uh and the fenigreek seeds actually are functional, so it's not just a flavor, but like fenigreeks have a real kind of mucilaginous texture when they've been kind of ground up. So you soak you can soak the fenigreek seeds with the uh with the black gram with the urad dal if you want, but uh but you soak the rice and the uh urad dolls separately because they take different amounts of water, right? So you soak them and then you grind them, you soak them for you know hours, depends on the temperature outside and temperature of the temperature inside rather and the temperature of the water, and then yeah, you drain most of the water off, save it, and then you grind it in a wet grinder. And a wet grinder is essentially uh two stone wheels that spin on a stone platform and grind things to a paste. Now the trick with it is you want to grind uh I grind you grind the urad doll first.
+
+[54:15] The the reason is is that uh the uradal adds a lot of the structure to the dough and uh to the batter, rather, and it is it it air helps aerate it and provide it like a lot of the like I say, the structure, it's got like the protein in it, right? That that you need, and just I guess maybe also hydrocolides, I don't know. Uh, but you grind it and you grind it for longer than you think. Like I grind it for you know, probably 20 minutes, something like that, until it gets really light, airy. Then you dump it out, then you put the rice in, and uh the urad doll is going to take a lot more water because it's like the that to grind than the rice.
+
+[54:51] But you add the rice separately, and the rice will help grinding the rice will help clean out your wet grinder because if you do the if you do it in the other way, you grind the fenigrake, by the way, with the ura doll. But if you do it the other way around, then you've got the goopier stuff in it at the end, so it's a pain in the butt to clean out your your grinder. And I would also note clean out your grinder right after you're done. Don't let that stuff dry. Although you know, sometimes even dries it flakes right off.
+
+[55:14] But anyway, clean it up. So then you mix those two things together and adjust the water content of the battery if it's too dense, uh it's a pain, it doesn't work right, and if it's too uh watery, it'll seep right through your molds because the molds are typically perforated. Uh, and then you let it rise in a warm place until it gets light and airy and tastes fermented, and that's that's basically how I do it. But the trick is is that I've I've actually been getting better at it, so my idlys are getting lighter and lighter and fluffier and fluffier. And the problem is is that one of the things I like to do is I'll put I'll I'll spoon some so these the idly molds look like little like almost like egg poaching cups.
+
+[55:50] Does that make sense, Peter? Egg poaching cups. No one uses those anymore, egg poaching cups, right? I hope not. They're the enemy.
+
+[55:56] Yeah. That's I mean, why would you need to do that? Yeah. Anyway, but they used to sell that stuff. Yeah.
+
+[56:00] So they're shaped like that. So you spoon a little bit in, then I spoon in like a filling. Like, for instance, uh, you could do cheese, you could do uh chili, you could do beans, you could do whatever, and then adding more over the top. But as my idli get lighter, the batter has less ability to hold stuff in it, and so I'm getting starting to get bleed through at the bottom of my idlys with the stuff, but it's great. So you then you steam them for like 10 minutes in a steamer and you pop them out and you have these stuffed that's what's not traditional is the stuffed idlis.
+
+[56:33] And so then I serve them like I would like I typically do it with like chili, and then I serve them like with like shredded lettuce and sour cream and other stuff as though it was Mexican food. Yeah, and it's good. Yeah, I like it a lot. Uh but so then we went to this place, the Ganesh Temple, and they had the paper dosa. And this have you had a better paper dosa than that?
+
+[56:50] Never had a better paper dosa. I've never had a better paper dosa. I've also never been to the South India. Uh no, I kind of wanted to go. Peter and I were looking at airline flights because I was like, Man, I gotta go now.
+
+[56:58] But like uh, yeah, I'm not saying that we've had the be all and end all, but I've had a fair share of them, and this was by far and away the best one. Hard to imagine how it could be better than that. Because it was so delicious. It was the perfect amount of like super crunchy on the outside and soft and on the inside. The texture was just sick.
+
+[57:14] Yeah, babe. We gotta wrap up in a minute. All right, hold on. So okay, so we asked the guy, we walked up, and for some reason these guys were hip to talk to us about like their dosa, right? And I was like, Man, that dose is good.
+
+[57:26] What's up with that? It's like, do you use the same recipe you use for uh for idlis? He's like, our secret is we had some chickpea for the crunch. I was like, chickpea for the crunch. Oh, yeah.
+
+[57:38] Yep. Yeah. Okay. So before we leave, uh what do I have? Like 30 seconds?
+
+[57:43] What do I have? Yeah, you can have 30. All right. So I was gonna talk to egg uh to Peter about eggs and whether or not, because he's done the European thing and the Africa thing and the American thing about like refrigerating eggs or not, and it's a big pain in the butt topic. Maybe we have you back to talk about that.
+
+[57:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh when are you going to uh Tanzania? June 10. So we probably might not have you back before then. So uh tell me about Ethiopian eggs real quick.
+
+[58:06] Peter loves eating open eggs. So, yeah, I mean there are these things when you're in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa at least, you can buy two kinds of eggs. One is called Ferrangi eggs, which means foreigner egg, and the other is Habesha egg, which means local egg. The Habesha eggs are tiny, they're extremely brittle. Like you can barely chicken egg.
+
+[58:21] Yeah, chicken eggs. And you can barely carry them back home without breaking one along the way because they're so brittle. You crack them open though, and they're so thick that you can't even like if you beat it into a bowl, it's hard to you. It's like you need a pastry spatula to get it all out because it won't actually pour out. It's so thick, it just clings to the bowl.
+
+[58:37] Give me the name of this egg again. Habesha egg. How do they get the shell so thin? They give DDT to the birds? I don't know what it is, but it they're crazy delicious.
+
+[58:44] They're the most delicious eggs I've ever had. And they're like, I don't know if it's just because they're mostly yolk, but they just have an incredibly creamy um and like super eggy flavor. And so it's it's like a different product almost. Yeah, you know what the nice thing about food is is that like no matter how old you get, there's always like some awesome thing just around the corner. Yeah you know what I mean?
+
+[59:05] Yeah. Anyway, we'll have you back to talk about when you're back, we'll talk about the eggs. You're gonna do some research on the eggs, you'll get back to us, and then we can talk about whether or not you should refrigerate eggs, etc. etc. Yep.
+
+[59:14] All right, and and get some good uh food in Tanzania. Tell me what Tanzanian food's all about. Of course. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:37] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:00:03] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products.
+
+[1:00:49] Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:29] Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:59] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you pre-recorded from the Manchester Hilton here in beautiful San Diego. Join this to Hyatt. Where are we?
+
+[1:23] The Hyatt. So hello. Are they giving us promotion is promotional consideration being provided for by the not in this case? So we're we're paying straight boat. So I'm a demarriad.
+
+[1:34] We're stealing the space, to be honest. I can be anywhere. I am uh, you know, like you know, pimp out the place of your choice because I have no feelings one way or the other for them. Oh, I will say this though. We are at a a grand hypoth, not at a park hyatt, which, you know, if you've been at a park hyatt, you're never gotta, you know, that's it.
+
+[1:55] That's all you gotta. So I am not even though I am in the great state of California, uh, I am not joined, as usual, by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez because she's in New York where she belongs. I, in fact, uh am out b uh uh because Prinot Ricard is hosting a series of events called uh Bacon, which stands for uh what does it stand for? Bartender Advocacy Convention. Bartender Advocacy Convention.
+
+[2:20] So don't bother calling your questions in to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Don't bother calling because this is pre-recorded. But I am joined today with uh uh you know, oftentime guest, uh evil cocktail overlord Don Lee. How are you doing, Don?
+
+[2:37] I thought I was the benevolent cocktail overlord now. Now that we're partners, I'm supposed to switch you to benevolent, huh? That's what I said before. Yeah. Do you prefer to be benevolent or do you uh the best evil is the secret evil, not the overt evil.
+
+[2:49] So what's your like what's your favorite, like what do you mean? Like who's secretly evil? Yoda? The devil. The devil's not secretly evil.
+
+[2:57] The devil is evil. But yeah, but the devil's convinced you that there is no devil, which is the secret evil. What? Since when did the devil convince you there was no devil? Listen, how many people believe that there is an actual devil?
+
+[3:08] The Charlie Daniels band? Yeah, most people don't believe there's a devil, though. Uh like some of the greatest stuff is all devil bait. Look, like you have uh uh Paradise Lost, Milton. That's true.
+
+[3:18] Devil, best characters. I see devil though. Devil. Charlie Daniels band. Yeah.
+
+[3:26] What do you guys think? But we also have in the, it's not in the studio, it's in the hotel room, but we also have in the hotel room with us today, Kevin Den. How are you doing? Hello. So uh I knew Kevin first when he was the uh bartender, head bartender, beverage director.
+
+[3:41] I don't know. What was your title over there? All those at one point or another? At uh WD50 restaurant. And uh by the way, we are kind of brothers in the having the restaurant shut down for losing the space kind of a situation.
+
+[3:55] Slightly different because your crew got uh handsomely paid and they knocked the building down, whereas I was just like, Yeah, you can't have the space anymore. That's what they told me. They're like, eh, I want that space back. But you know, similar kind of a situation. Yeah, I don't know how handsome it was, but they got paid something.
+
+[4:10] I'm not saying I'm just saying it's like they got paid something. They didn't they weren't like it's over. It's a very large building now, it's really weird. Yeah, you know, when I walked past, so WD50 was uh my brother-in-law Wiley Dufrein, and I have uh do's donuts, new donut shop out there in Williamsburg. Um is that really Williamsburg or is it like pseudo Williamsburg?
+
+[4:29] It's Williamsburg, yeah. It's prime Williamsburg. Prime Williamsburg, yeah. But how close is it to Sam Mason's uh ice cream shop? Eight blocks.
+
+[4:38] So close. Yes, and twelve. It's right around the corner from Brooklyn Brewery. It's the back of Brooklyn Brewery, if you know where that is. I know where Brooklyn did as Brooklyn Brewery moved.
+
+[4:46] I used to work at an art studio on that on the block where Brooklyn was back in the day. Back in the day, I think I've said this. I've said this on the on the radio show before, but when I used to work out there, there was a Mr. Softy ice cream truck, which is like the ice cream truck of the of New York, you know, the Mr. Softy.
+
+[5:04] But uh this one had only like two or three of the notes worked, and they didn't sell any ice cream, they just went around on the streets selling drugs, and it only like two or two or three of the you know, music things worked. So it was like burn, burn, bing, burn. Like traveling around in uh Williamsburg. It was pretty sweet. It was nice.
+
+[5:23] Was that packable's canon you were just doing? Uh no, it was like uh I was trying to remove all the notes from beep from Turkey and the Straw. Like the classic ice cream song is Turkey and the Straw. So anyway, so Kevin Denton was uh at uh WD-50 and also at uh Alder, right? Sure was and then went uh straight from there to your current job, and that I'm gonna let you say what the title is.
+
+[5:44] Oh, are you gonna make me? Yeah. I'm the national mixologist. Right. At Pernot Ricard.
+
+[5:50] Right. So Perno. So for those of you that don't know, this actually might be interesting. I wish we could have callers in because this is kind of a fascinating job. So like bartending is in general, in general, like a young person's kind of game in the in the modern world, right?
+
+[6:08] So you, you know, you work kind of these uh like kind of long crazy hours. You tend to, yeah, I'm not gonna say you tend to drink a lot, but you tend to drink a lot. Um a lot of people burn out, go do something else. But the kind of like the viable career paths after that, you can go be um, you can go try to open a bar, you can be a brand ambassador, you can go kind of do your job is a little more rare, right? It doesn't come come up as often.
+
+[6:35] So why don't you describe kind of what you do? So it's um I would say about 30% of the job is developing the drink strategies for all our different brands in our portfolio. So every year they have a plan for how they want to market their spirit, and uh I come up with recipes or ways of drinking that product that they're gonna highlight that year. Uh so you kind of follow the trends and see what people are into. Uh, you know, a couple years ago, the Moscow mule became like the thing that everybody wanted to glom on.
+
+[7:10] Bizarre. Was that your fault? Who did that? That wasn't me, but uh there's backlash now. You know, there's mule backlash.
+
+[7:16] Really? I just started making mules. I literally just started making mules like last like last month. They're not Moscow mules, but you know, I started making like you know different kinds of mules. So what was the backbone?
+
+[7:29] Typically a poorly made drink. So for those of you that don't know, it's uh it's uh like uh well a vodka would be vodka and ginger beer, and what else is in that lime lime, right? In in a in a copper cup, if you have the money for it, right? Or some sort of metal cup. A mug.
+
+[7:46] Yeah. In some sort of a mug kind of a situation. Cocktail King would sell these mugs. Yeah, we would. The original mugs were sold by the Smyrnax Corporation, correct?
+
+[7:53] Uh the original mugs were actually made uh in-house by the Cock and Bull Tavern in Los Angeles. Uh and so it was their house drink, and they made this mug and uh a lot of people stole it. And eventually uh a bunch of uh liquor companies, including Spirinoff, decided to use it as a promotional item. So yes, in what the 60s? What are we talking about?
+
+[8:12] 50s 60s. Do I look like Dave Wondershire? I'm the science guy. Yeah, I think it was the 60s. 60s.
+
+[8:22] So then uh what's your favorite, by the way? What's your favorite like go out in New York? You like the gingin mule, like Pegu's gingin mule they've had on the menu forever. You like that drink? Yeah, ging in mule, I like that.
+
+[8:32] And has the old uh, you know, Kente used to do the the uh two pieces of ginger with the skewer resting on the glass as his thing. Yeah, I like candy ginger, I like that. But the mule often horribly made drink, right? Like, how often do you have it out and you're like, wow, that's a well-made drink? Well, it I think the whole thing hinges on the acidity, right?
+
+[8:51] Because the ginger beer is typically a little sweet, unless you get the right one, it doesn't have that ginger bite that you're after. So unless they're putting fresh lime juice in it, you're kind of losing uh what makes it exciting to drink. You know, it's kind of a structureless nightmare scenario. It's like a dark and stormy, you know, if you just have the rum and the ginger beer, it's like, what is it's missing? Oh, acid.
+
+[9:14] Right. But it's also like the lime wedge, right? It's like the JGL. You gotta have that. You gotta have the L.
+
+[9:21] Yeah. J G L. Oh. Oh, man, you guys are just pushing for no products like the end of the freaking world is coming. These people, let me tell you something about liquor people, people.
+
+[9:32] For those of you that aren't actually in this business, like these are for a bunch of crazy reprobates, they are the most on message people like on earth. Like, I have spent my whole life kind of like needling, not my whole life, like professional life, needling like liquor people. Like, okay, so who used to own, can I even say this? Who used to own, they don't make it anymore, Nivon. Who used to make this?
+
+[9:53] It was a Grand Marnier. Grandmarnier owned that. So, like, I was mercilessly making fun of the name. I was doing a demo for them at uh the French Culinary Institute. And it was a French guy that actually showed up, you know, repping the product.
+
+[10:07] This was before they reformulated. This is when they first came out. Well, I'm not gonna say it tasted like poison, but like, you know, you draw your own conclusions. I won't the words it tasted like poison won't come out of my mouth. But the original formulation, like, I'm not gonna say I was a giant fan either.
+
+[10:23] You guys, did you have it? Uh it was a vanilla liqueur, yeah. I remember having it a long time ago. And they did a pretty heavy push on it. You know, they got some pretty good people behind it.
+
+[10:33] Uh, I think Will Goldfarb was doing some work for him anyway. They did a uh demonstration at that French culinary, and uh I did it, and the French guy was there, and he, you know, no one knew me from Adam, anyone at that point in my life. And so I would only call it Navin. Like I would only like in all the backstage and everything, call it Navin, Navin. And he's like, he's like, it's no fun.
+
+[10:57] And I was like, come on, man. I know it's Navin. I'm doing it, but like during the demo, I didn't mess him over. But like liquor people don't have a sense of humor about their product. True?
+
+[11:08] I don't know about that. I think that um if you're new to it or over everybody is overly precious about some things, you know, and they don't they take certain things really seriously. I would say there's a there's plenty of people, particularly people that came up on the operation side that worked in bars, that then they make the jump over to work for brands that you know have a sense of humor about what the what they do and about you know selling out, all those other things that go along with it. And then there's you know, brand owners and people like that that maybe you know, they're sinking a lot of dough into these things, so they take it pretty seriously. Empathy, you know, we gotta have a little empathy.
+
+[11:52] I have I'm um well, I'm not really empathy. Yeah, I'm not an empathy. No one's really accused me of like being Mr. Empathy. Here's another thing.
+
+[11:58] So let me let me just stir up a can of worms because Kevin, you don't mind. So Kevin doesn't mind. That's like uh so here's the thing, right? You have a whole group of people coming into the liquor industry, and so hey, I apologize. A lot of we're at a liquor conference, and I got liquor people here, so we're gonna be talking about the liquor business a little bit.
+
+[12:15] Um so there seems to be kind of two classes of people that kind of go into this business on the liquor side, and this is something I think that again that hopefully the listeners find interesting, but they're you know, probably not exp unless they're in the business, aren't exposed to how this works. Even young bartenders, I don't think really know how this crap works. You have two major classes of people. You have the people who actually did the job and love product and go, you know, love the bar world and love the people and go into it. These are people like who have been doing it for a number of years and you know, who are now moving in into that world.
+
+[12:52] And then you have the marketing people who just came out of school and they could be selling, they could be selling cars, they could be selling boots, toilet paper, toothbrushes, yeah, whatever. So how do you deal with those people? Honestly, the problem isn't even necessarily they're like right out of college, this is their first job and their background is you know, school marketing. A lot of times the executives and the higher-ups, they're people who also came out of like the packaging industry as well. They're, you know, worked for Johnson and Johnson, a family company, uh, you know, uh as an executive there, and now they're running the liquor business.
+
+[13:23] So there is a huge disconnect uh, you know, from the bottom to the top, not only on the marketing side, but just on kind of in in the corporate executive side as well. I think that's exactly right. And there's certainly a frustration that is bred out of like spirits unlike almost anything else, like you don't go in and say, um, you know, give me this brand ice cream. You know, you don't call your ice cream brand at a place. You don't call a brand most places, you know, maybe when you're buying a car, but that's like a big purchase that happens infrequently.
+
+[14:01] Whereas people drinking happens with relative frequency, and then the fact that you call out different brands, that you have allegiances to these brands, um makes it sort of a weird, unique animal. And I think if you grew up working in a bar and you love certain brands and you love what sort of they're about, like you like their story, you like the people that are surrounding it, um, then you have this like affinity towards it. Um so then if someone is coming in and telling you whatever, it could be it's a cog, it's a whatever, you know, it's like, well, no, it's not. You know, we spent all this time really falling in love with your brand and and telling its story when I was working behind the bar. Like, why don't you get that this is something more than just uh a commodity?
+
+[14:55] Right, but you also I get the impression that the people who come out of the actual bar world have more of an appreciation for kind of like how to take care of people. Like I can't tell you how many bar people I've spoken to who have either become brand ambassadors or working on corporate side, you know, you know, other than ambassadors like in your kind of position, who just get like virulently angry at people who don't kind of understand how the flow of information or how the how the kind of job works, and it's to the detriment of the what's weird is it's to the detriment of the industry and the product, but also so much freaking money is spent in such weird ways. The weirdest ways. I mean, it's just crazy, right? Yeah, I mean people make decisions based on um surveys and studies and marketing assessments the same way like we conduct presidential polls.
+
+[15:53] Like you're calling someone on a landline at 10 o'clock in the morning, like you're gonna get crazy people, you know, the responses that you're receiving for these studies are not necessarily skewed towards the actual consumer. And I think that maybe that is like laziness on the part of the people that are conducting the surveys and you know, trying to get re mine real data about how people use their products. Maybe it's maybe there aren't good tools for figuring out that information, but you know, it is I think bartenders are a wealth of information. You know, they're the ones sitting behind that invisible line every night, like eavesdropping on everybody and getting a uh you know, a sense for what people like and what they don't like. You can spot the trends, you can see what you know what the masses are drinking, and uh I think Spirits brands try to talk to bartenders, but maybe they don't talk to enough bartenders.
+
+[16:54] Right. And you also mean like uh, you know, again, hopefully you don't mind talking about this crap, but like you deal on with both like kind of like the higher-end cocktail bars and also like QSR restaurants, like uh, you know, similar in style to Applebee's, let's say. I deal directly with Applebee's. I didn't want to call it out because I didn't know whether you're allowed to say it, but it's like you know, you're dealing with these very kind of different levels. So, what's that like all of a sudden having because you know you spent the entire you're you're you know, for years, the years that I've known you, you know, you've dealt almost exclusively with a very like high end slice of the cocktail world.
+
+[17:29] And then all of a sudden you're like, boom, now you're dealing still dealing with that slice, but now you're also dealing with Applebee's. What's that like? Uh it's the most challenging and rewarding part because I think that when it's blue skies, when you're creating drinks with zero restrictions, which Wiley was really great about sort of letting me do whatever I wanted creatively, um, that is, you know, in some ways limiting, you know, like when you have constraints, when you have uh, you know, a certain cost that it has to come in because you know, these places sell their drinks very inexpensively. Um you have a set number of ingredients that you can use because if they have thousands of locations, you know, the supply chain alone for getting stuff is difficult. So you have a lot of constraints, and then it's you know, it's all little uh puzzles, right?
+
+[18:28] You know, it's like I've got X, Y, and Z. I have to create something at this price that hits, you know, these touch points that people are into. You know, what does someone in Kansas City want that you know, someone all in Atlanta wants that someone, you know, you're really trying to hit a common denominator with a broad slice of different types of people. So I don't really think of it as dumbing down as much as it is like try to be 90% comfortable and maybe like 10% aspirational. Like try to pull people that maybe don't get exposed to high-end cocktail bars, like try to bring them up a little bit through quirky ingredients or different ways of doing drinks.
+
+[19:19] Um it's not uh it's not a bad thing to get out of the like ivory tower and see what the the masses are into, you know. And like uh I just did a big project with a a large national chain that everybody, all the listeners would know. Um, and working with their bartenders, like the age range was 21 to 63. Like one uh participant in this training had uh three of her kids that worked at the same restaurant that she did. So, like you have these multi-generational, like in smaller communities, like it's pretty wild to think about that.
+
+[20:00] You're creating something that then gets disseminated to the four corners of the globe, and you want to make sure that it's cool and then it's quality. Has to be bulletproof too, though, right? Totally bulletproof. Because there if there's a will, there is a way to screw these things up six ways to Sunday. Like they just butcher stuff sometimes.
+
+[20:20] At every minute in my life, I learn how easy it is to have someone else screw up your idea. Yeah. Every second of my life I learn a little bit more how easy it is to have someone screw up your idea. So now, correct me if I'm wrong, this is how it works, right? So let's just say Applebee's because it's coming to my head.
+
+[20:35] Applebee's, right? They have X number of slots on their menus for drinks, right? So you're there, you're on Prono Ricard side. Let's say Prono Ricard is like they own beef eater, for those of you, right? They own beef feeder, that's like the gym that they own.
+
+[20:49] And so you're going in there with uh your beef eater thing, someone from Diagio, Diagio owns Tankere. So Diaggio is coming in, you're coming in, and you're each trying to sell this new recipe to Applebee's, so that they'll be like there you sell them on the recipe, right? For someone, I'm assuming someone like Applebee's you're selling them on a recipe idea, right? On a concept and a story that they can push out on their menus in a very easy way to execute. So when someone pulls the trigger on the beef eater drink instead of on the tank array drink for something like that, like how much quantity am I talking here?
+
+[21:22] Like how many cases is that? I mean, it it it all depends on how popular the drink is, but if you have to keep something in stock because it's on your menu, and if you have a say there's a thousand locations, um, you know, there's a thousand bottles that you have to purchase right there, and no one's buying a single bottle at a chain, so there's a thousand cases. So without really even selling a drink, that's already a thousand cases. So it's a big whoopty deal. It's uh it's a big deal.
+
+[21:55] And if you get something, if you get a drink on the menu that's popular, like uh I remember when I was at Alder and I had a a drink named after Dr. Dave, uh, who is a uh infamous lower east side uh medic that would take care of uh people in food and beverage. Um when I tallied that we had sold uh 10,000 Dr. Dave script pads, I thought that was a huge deal. And then I got a drink on a menu at a big national chain, and that happened in like a month, you know.
+
+[22:30] So that sort of stuff. The scale is pretty crazy once you start digging into it. That's gotta be rewarding, huh? Super rewarding. All right, now here's another one.
+
+[22:39] This is a tough side. So, and you again you've been on both sides, obviously, because you started in the bar world. There's the way that the bar, the way that the liquor business works is the liquor business hires like nice, friendly people that other people like, right? So that you will hang you, being you one of these people, will hang out with the people who are purchasing liquor. We then, because we like you, when we're coming up with another spec, or if we've done an uh event with you, you force us to come up with a spec for the event, so now we have a spec with that product, we use that product, that seeps down, and it's all done on this kind of friendship basis, but it ends up actually being a big monetary benefit for the company, not that the bartenders who are using the product are losing.
+
+[23:31] And I always kind of think like, is this kind of okay or is this weird? Do you know what I mean? I know what you mean. Um I didn't really do much with brands when I was a bartender. I kind of wanted to be agnostic so I could do whatever I wanted and not be beholden to anybody.
+
+[23:48] Um that said, I think that business has generally been run off of relationships. And just because it's a liquor company that's you know hiring you to do events and coming into your bar and spending money, like I don't know that that's any different than the way business is run generally. Um it's certainly not quid pro quo. Um, but if you I would I would venture to guess that if you like the people that work for a company, you're more likely to utilize their stuff, be it shampoo or vodka or toilet paper, whatever, like getting personable people. Toilet paper I buy strictly based on the product.
+
+[24:35] Has nothing to do with the people. It's like it's just between me, the paper, and my behind. That's it. That's it. Yeah, does it does it take care of the cheeks?
+
+[24:44] That's why you although that's you know, that's actually a freaking lie. My my wife's grandpa used to work for the Scott Paper Corporation, and so I buy freaking Scott. Wow. How about a seventh generation? You know, you're thinking seven generations ahead.
+
+[24:57] You're not thinking of the people you're buying from, but the future. Come on. You want to stuff that's gonna be good to the environment. Okay, okay, but where what's your thoughts on paper? Do you know that every time you save a tree, you hurt a farmer?
+
+[25:14] It's not like it's not like your toilet paper is being produced from the Amazonian rainforest. You know what I mean? Like there is some dude in or do that, there's some woman in Oregon with like growing like hair plug trees, you know, like in those, you've you've driven past them, right? And they're coming up, and then they pulp those suckers and they make paper. So as long as the toilet paper is produced in a way that doesn't have it, paper used to be an environmental nightmare from a waste stream perspective, right?
+
+[25:46] But if this person, if you know, she wants to have a farm and she wants to grow trees so that I may wipe my butt, like you know, and I have the money to buy the tree product to wipe my butt, like what's so bad about that? Well, if you uh if you really like that woman that's got that farm, you're gonna go with her stuff, right? If I knew who it was, yeah. I mean there's not a lot of transparency in the toilet paper industry. No, pulp is pretty much commodified.
+
+[26:14] It's like you know, you know, you don't care who now now you do buy, you do buy, so you know, Miley Carpenter runs the Food Network magazine, badass. My he my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, she is like sh she is a has very specific paper towels that she likes. She they don't pay her or anything, but she only uses uh what's the brand name? Viva. Oh really?
+
+[26:29] Yeah. Interesting. She's a Viva woman with her paper towels, finds them to be a superior quality paper towel. They're a really good paper towel. Yeah.
+
+[26:44] I like a bounty. You're a bounty paper towel person? Why? Yeah, it's very absorbent. What's their motto?
+
+[26:49] The quicker picker upper? It is. Can you believe that? I don't know how quick it is, but it definitely picks it up. I don't know that I need my paper towels to be luxurious.
+
+[26:58] Although I do detest, for instance, on the TV when they're marketing a paper towel, they're like, look, I can use Windex and then I can uh I can wipe it up, I can wring it out and use it again. Nobody does this. Nobody does that. Nobody does this. No.
+
+[27:11] It's like if I'm gonna use it. Clearly did not grow up in an immigrant household. Because yes, totally ring up paper towel and reuse paper towels all the time. Well, if you're gonna reuse the towel, then you use a cloth towel, use a bar towel. It depends on the job.
+
+[27:26] But paper towels, definitely reused all the time growing up. What? For real. Yeah, for real. In California.
+
+[27:34] In California. And and to this day, like I don't always reuse paper towels, but depending on what I'm on what I'm washing, if I'm using a paper towel, I will often like rinse it, wring it out, and then like continue to clean with it. That's fair. I mean, I I cook a ton and I just keep it a paper towel around, use that like my side towel, and it'll be dirty, and then you it gets multiple uses. I wouldn't wash it and hang it up or I wouldn't dry it.
+
+[28:00] No, clearly not. Look, if it's a quick wipe, I'm using like I'm using a bar towel, a kitchen towel, and like that stays with me like the entire time, which is why like when my kids go to wipe something off the floor with one of the kitchen does like you know what I mean? And then they try to put it back up on the counter. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, oh my god.
+
+[28:14] You know what I mean? Yeah. Don't you hate that? Like, once the towel hits the floor, it's on the floor. I don't give a five-second roll to those suckers.
+
+[28:27] You don't you don't have a little red bucket in your kitchen and you put it in. I don't do the sanitizer bucket. Uh you do the sanitizer bucket? No. No one does a sanitizer bucket.
+
+[28:35] I would venture to guess a lot of. But you Wiley doesn't even do sanitizer bucket at home, and he's a freak. Yeah. But anyway, my point being that if I if there's a possibility that it's something that I'm not gonna mind, like I bust out the paper towels when something horrible has happened. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:52] Like I'm picking up glass. There's a spill of blue liquid. Yeah, which is always the case in a paper downbreaker. Like what I do is someone brings me blue curtaus as like, you know, here, thank you for inviting me to your house. I smack it onto the floor.
+
+[29:07] I do like a DeKembi Matumbo, nothing my house, bam! I smash it on the floor, and then all that glass and blue liquid is being soaked up in my paper towel, and that's how it goes. And you want the quicker picker upper for that? Yeah. I don't know.
+
+[29:20] You don't do the cat litter like for like oil spills, and then you just sweep it. Yeah, the garage, you know, in the shop. You live in a garage. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, you know, in a shop where you got oil spills, you got you got the cat litter. I'm for the cat litter.
+
+[29:34] So you you like that as opposed to like the more expensive, like uh spill absorbing things. Cat litter, that's a good way to get it. And then where do you dispose of it? Do you take it to the dump like a real person or do you throw it in the trash like a butt hit? No, you you clearly put it with the oily rags, which didn't go like you know, separate hazardous pickup.
+
+[29:50] Come on. Hazardous pickup. We don't have hazardous pickup. Everything's hazardous. Well, what kind of shop are you running here?
+
+[29:56] Look, we have like where I am in Connecticut, when I'm in Connecticut, we have our own special dump. You have to drive your hazardous waste out to it, and there's a guy who yells at you if you do it wrong. Yeah. That's where you take your batteries. You know, you're up, you're not throwing your batteries in the fire, are you?
+
+[30:09] Well, we just talked about that today. Like, we're like, you're not allowed to put batteries in the fire, although now I have an extreme desire to dispose of all my batteries in the fire. So, anyway. Alright, so uh Kevin, I was told that you had some interesting questions about uh how cocktails work with milk. What do you got?
+
+[30:28] So it's popping up a lot, and um uh something that I do is field a lot of meat uh media requests, and I see like whey popping up in cocktails a lot. Like how people are using it. How people are using it? Are they literally buying whey powder and adding whey powder or I think they're splitting milk and using it, you know, as uh you know, something to froth it up. I've seen whey tonic out here in California.
+
+[30:55] Whey tonic, what's that? Whey and tonic. As a just a straight no alcohol, just whey and tonic in California. I think in LA. First of all, are you making fun of LA?
+
+[31:09] If you mix whey and tonic, it will foam like an egg cream because the whey has a lot of foaming properties to it, and the tonic has bubbles in it. This seems to me to be um a nightmare. Like, does it taste good? Have you tried it? Egg creams.
+
+[31:26] I don't. Okay, I want to. I've tried so hard to like egg creams. I even like the fact that it contains neither egg nor cream. Like everything about it, like seems right up your alley.
+
+[31:38] See, well, it's totally right up my alley. Like Fox's You Bet Syrup. I don't actually like it, but I like the idea of it. I mean, it's it's garbage, it's not a good product, but like I I the idea of it I love. Like Lower East Side, New York, like Jewish history, seltzer based, all of that.
+
+[31:56] Awesome. Egg creams, blow. They're just not good. I'm I'm not gonna argue with you on that point. I think you know it's it's not what I want.
+
+[32:06] But Don, what about you? Are you an egg cream fan or no? You know, I didn't grow up on an egg cream. It's interesting. It's not really something I ever pined for.
+
+[32:14] I'll take a root beer float, but uh, root beer float, dad is a coke float, delicious. Coke float, do you know what I was you know who I was? I was that kid who would have the Diet Coke float. I used to literally order Diet Coke floats. That's strange to me.
+
+[32:30] Because I liked I liked Diet Coke because I I only I grew up this people is probably indicative of who I am as a person, but I grew up drinking Diet Coke as my water. So like, you know how you might come in. No, you know how you might come in and have water? I would come in and have Diet Coke. See, I I ended up loving Diet Coke when I was an RA in college because that was the one thing no one drank.
+
+[32:56] And that meant that as the RA, I just had a lot of it and I'd end up drinking it. Why'd no one drink Diet Coke? Yeah, I don't know. You know you're an RA? I was an RA.
+
+[33:04] I was actually John De Berry's RA. Wow. John DeBerry was a bartender at PDT, and then now is a uh what's his title at uh Mama Fuku? Uh head mixologist. I don't know.
+
+[33:16] Wow, is that true? Bar director, I'm I honestly know I don't know. I was just poking fun of Kevin. Why the hell did people not drink Diet Coke? What's that all about?
+
+[33:24] What do you think? You know your metabolism is how you can just drink the uncut stuff. But why would you do that? You know, they they they went to the Mountain Dew, wanted to live the extreme lifestyle. Well, everybody who knows me knows that when I was in college when I wanted to stay up, all I would drink is Diet Dew.
+
+[33:41] I would have cases and cases of Diet Mountain Dew. And if I was in a car trip, I would just load the back of the car up with Diet Mountain Dew, then pretzels, because I like pretzels, just like box after box of pretzels, and then uh believe this or not, this works because uh it's just the right amount of prunes. Just boxes of prunes. I was gonna go with fiber capital. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:09] I was like prunes, pretzels, and diet dew, and you would just load that into the car, and you'd only have to stop for gas. So I would drive from like Connecticut down to uh like deep Florida, like Sarasota, in one shot, 24 hours straight, boom. It don't do this. It's really stupid. Like any young people out there driving for 24 hours straight is really stupid.
+
+[34:35] It's dangerous. Don't think of other people, not just yourself. It's really, really dumb. I remember one time uh And if you're having that many prunes, like you're gonna need to stop. No, it's like if the thing is is if you're not eating right and you're sitting, your body kind of shuts down.
+
+[34:50] So you're just like you need something to even keep you like relatively human. And so you're just pounding this stuff and you know, going down the highway, but yeah, it's just really stupid. I can remember being so tired as I was driving that I was like, I remember this is the worst. I shouldn't even say it's so horrible. I was I nodded off, and I as I nodded, I w woke up and there was I was like kind of drifting into a cop car.
+
+[35:14] I was like, pull over. Pull over now. He didn't say that because he didn't see it. Like I was like, I need to pull over now and sleep. But it's really stupid.
+
+[35:25] Why do young people always want to do that? You know, the brain is not fully formed yet. You know, it's a dangerous time. Really dangerous. But uh still to this day I like to diet too.
+
+[35:36] Diet too. Anyway, we're gonna come to uh gonna do a quick break. I actually, because we're pre-recording, I don't know who's sponsoring me. Perhaps it will be modernistpantry.com. Go to modernistpantry.com for all of your modernist needs.
+
+[35:48] In fact, we actually went to modernistpantry.com for some of our modernist needs from the seminar I did today. We get back, maybe we'll talk a little bit about the seminar. Maybe I'll be brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator from Chef Steps. Perhaps this show will be brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, which by the way is not. There is an actual do you know this?
+
+[36:06] You know Bob's Red Mill, right, Kevin? No. Wow, Bob's you know Bob's Red Mill. No, you don't know this? So if you go into the supermarket, they have like this like uh now a lot of supermarkets have an entire section with all these little bags, these little like one-pound bags of like every random grain, pseudo-grained.
+
+[36:24] Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Bob's Red Mill, Xanthan. That's where you get Zanthan also. Anyway, so there's like, and there's a picture of this guy, Bob on it.
+
+[36:31] And you know, for years I was like, that's horse crap. There's no freaking Bob. Bob's not a real freaking guy. This is like a marketing gimmick. There's actually a Bob.
+
+[36:39] Who knew? I well, I I didn't know that. I found out there's actually Bob. But here's the weird thing. There are real sticklers about this, is that it is not like if you if like when they were first doing the promos and they made us do the promos for talking, right?
+
+[36:52] They said, uh, just make sure you don't say Bob's red mill. I'm like, what do you what do you mean? What are you talking about? They're like, they hate it when you say red mill as though the red and the mill are separate, like they might have some other kind of mill, some other color of mill, or perhaps like there's Bob's red mill and also Bob's red truck. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:20] It's not like that. You know what I mean? So it's I thought you were going with like a communist angle that this was like the people's mill. It's like the red mill. Well, they probably also hate that.
+
+[37:27] But it's like Bob's, it's red mill. Red mill. Red mill. Red mill. Not is that a kind of mill?
+
+[37:35] No, it's a thing. It's red mill. Okay. It's red mill. Bob's red mill.
+
+[37:40] So Bob's red mill might actually be. But here's the other problem with doing Bob's red mill, very good. I use their products actually occasionally, but uh they made me say a bunch of stuff about nutrition, and as you know, I'm anti-nutrition. Like I am vehemently opposed to almost every form of saying that X, Y or Z is a healthy thing. Yeah.
+
+[38:08] You know what I mean? I find it's almost entirely horse crap. Yeah. You know what I mean? To me, like health in, and this might only make sense to liquor people, but the the health spin that's put on things in the food world is akin, exactly akin to me, the marketing spin that you know different companies put out about their liquor, which what percentage, not of what Pernot Ricard says, which is all gold dripping from the from the mouths of angels, but like other liquor companies, what percentage of what they say is horse crap?
+
+[38:40] I mean, everybody bends the truth a little, right? So I think I think we might be over obsessed with the authenticity origin story. Like sometimes a product is just made somewhere and it's made in a factory, and like you can be straight with that. Yeah, well, that's my point. My point is is that is that every everybody like wants there to be kind of something bigger, right?
+
+[39:07] Sure. Well, stories, we we as a people want to hear stories, right? Right. But it's the same thing with nutrition and food. It's like these horse hockey stories that like have that make no freaking sense.
+
+[39:18] Anyway, so perhaps they are sponsoring us today. I don't know. Uh they probably, if they play this, if this doesn't get cut out, they will probably never sponsor me again. But my my point is is that let other people make their false nutrition claims and you know it's fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:34] Uh as for me, like I focus on taste, and I think that they have some, I think that the good thing about them is you can get some interesting products you couldn't otherwise get. That's all you need to know. You don't need to have, you don't need to say, oh, good source of thiamine. Do you need to say that? No, you don't.
+
+[39:51] You know what, Kevin, when was the last time? Do you go to doctors on a regular basis? Do you do your yearly checkup? Once a year, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:57] You ever had your doctor, and then every couple years they do a blood workup on you, right? Yeah. Yeah. You ever had that doctor say, you know what you need? More thiamine.
+
+[40:05] Well, it's because I have so much of Bob's Red Mill that uh my thiamine levels are off the charts. And niacin, just like through the free. Alright, alright. Alright, so we're gonna do a quick commercial break. We don't know who's gonna bring it to you, but we'll be right back.
+
+[40:26] Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiasts, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon.
+
+[40:58] Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy. It's not really new anymore, Dave. It's like, you know. Anyway. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[41:09] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. And we're back. Okay, so listen. Uh Kevin, you were talking about Way, but we never actually. Oh, Kevin's fixing himself a tocate.
+
+[41:28] Well, how exactly are you doing the Tikate? I want to know how a true professional prepares their tekate beer. First of all, he's using a bar spoon to open it, which is an approved method to open uh. What do you think about people, Kevin, who can't open a bottle without a without a real bottle opener, just low quality? Uh yeah, you're not really trying in that, you know.
+
+[41:52] You've never been in that position where you had to figure out how to open a beer and you didn't have the proper beer opening tool, like you improvised, right? Mother of invention. As I've always said, the world is your bottle opener. What what here is not a bottle opener? Everything here.
+
+[42:09] Well, so like how many times, when was the first time you had to push a wine cork in with your fingers to open the wine? Um I've actually never done that. I um stand back. He uses a sharpie. Come on, he's civilized.
+
+[42:23] Yeah, there you go. You have to hold over and go down. Yeah. Yeah, I've done the the sharpie thing. I don't even think it was a sharper.
+
+[42:29] It was like a dryer race, like a skinny dryer ace. Um, and then uh once I just broke the top off, which I don't recommend. Someone who is it? Was uh someone was telling me today, so like uh people again who've listened a lot know that I have a particular hatred for South American tamper fruit proof liquor bottles. Oh yeah, Leo.
+
+[42:50] Yeah, and uh Leo DeGroff was here at the conference. But um I have a hatred for those and the 700 uh milliliter European bottle, which is just a dumb measurement. I mean, not the 750's not dumb, but it's our it's like it's a dumb method. Uh to finish painting the word picture for the listeners, uh Kevin uh then squeezed a a wedge of a lime, pushed it into his taccate, and then uh was a few dashes of uh Cholula, uh not Tabasco, which was his first round. He's upgraded.
+
+[43:20] Uh any salt in this one? Not yet. But uh the Tabasco, while I love Tabasco and would carry it around with me, um, like right out of the gate when you put it in the beer bottle, like that'll get you right in the uh in the soft palate. Because of the vinegar. Oof, man.
+
+[43:38] Because it's high vinegar. Yeah, that one stays on your lips. Apparently, if you visit Avery Island in Louisiana where the macal macalini, that's the name of them, right? Where they live, like you like it's like like not possible to stay there. It's like it's like from the fumes of the Tabasco.
+
+[43:55] You know, they also bribed a bunch of Louisiana judges so that they could trademark the name of what is essentially a pepper. Like anyone should be able to make a Tabasco sauce because it's like saying, imagine if you trademarked jalapeno sauce. You can't do that. Right. Tabasco is a pepper.
+
+[44:12] Isn't there all sorts of crazy stuff with Avery Island and that family? Like I don't know. Yeah, yeah. They're like old school, corrupt Louisiana, but they also make like a great sauce that everyone loves. Yeah, it sounds a lot like new school Louisiana.
+
+[44:26] Yeah. Louisiana, well, you know, anyway, we're gonna we'll leave Louisiana to itself. Like you what are your thoughts on uh we we're gonna go there soon. It for Tails the Cocktail, but what are your guys' thoughts on that whole uh props to the city of uh New Orleans for taking down uh some Confederate uh you know statues? Uh I think that's a long overdue.
+
+[44:45] Did you see that guy in Mississippi? No. What was the guy in the Mississippi? There was a state rep in Mississippi. I'm not making this up.
+
+[44:54] Literally, literally said that he wanted to go lynch somebody for taking down those things. And I believe he's a funeral director in his daytime job. Not that there's anything, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying, like, just painting as you know, Don said, painting the full picture. But he is a state rep, think in Mississippi, and that is literally what he said.
+
+[45:19] Listen, Texas state reps are uh threatening uh or reminding people that they are currently armed and you know have a gun before other state reps vote on uh different propositions. So it's wait wait, wait, wait, they're like threatening people with violence in the state house. It's not a direct threat. It's just, you know, might I remind you that I am armed at the moment? Sounds like a threat.
+
+[45:40] Anyway, uh how do we get on that? Uh we should be like, whatever. We should back backtrack. Um we're talking about whey. Kevin had a question about whey.
+
+[45:48] What's the question about whey? I would say, are you seeing milk and dairy products in lots of cocktails? I mean, you get around, you see a lot of the world. Um that was one of those ingredients that I think sort of fell out of favor for a number of years, and like people didn't want to deal with it, and it was gross, and most adults don't drink milk. I mean, I use it a lot.
+
+[46:10] I use it a lot, like a lot. Like a huge chunk in the menu at Booker and Dax had was was milkwashed. You know, had had uh, but like almost no drinks were perceptibly milky. And that's the thing, but that's the problem with it having on the menu at all, is that if it's people there are some people who won't order it because they don't want something milky. Right.
+
+[46:33] You know what I mean? Um, but I think that's where whey, I think, is kind of an interesting proposition because it sounds gross. No one wants what are you gonna do? Oh, you know what? Whey.
+
+[46:45] It's just got whey syrup in it. That's what I'm going to do. But there's so many clever puns. There's yes way, no way, C Way. Oh, what's uh one of the bartenders attending the seminar was like, oh man, what if you made like a a Way and Nephew cocktail with some like you like that?
+
+[47:01] Like that. But like you're saying we one of those, which one of those Ways was like way like Mexican Whey? Uh the one with tequila. Uh remember, do you ever see uh what was that famous uh movie where he would go to every bar and they would try to hand him a beer and a glass, and he'd say, in a bottle way? What movie was that?
+
+[47:20] Una botea whey. Remember that? No. It was one of the early Rodriguez movies, I think. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[47:26] Random. So, oh yeah, I know what I want to tell you about Mexico. So, Leo de Groff, who was here at the conference earlier, basically said that these bottles, these tamper-proof bottles from South America and Mexico, that have those freaking little balls in them, so that you can't, which every they're execrable. They should be eliminated from the universe. He said that he knew these Mexican bartenders he was working with, who literally could just grab the bottle and smash the, like literally smash the top off without breaking the bottle on a consistent basis.
+
+[47:55] But he claimed that they would hit it, hit the bottle in some kind of horizontal fashion that would knock the uh the like the preventer, like that would keep keep you from uh pouring back into the bottle, such that it would go flying across the room and land in a trash can consistently. He did say that. I'm now remembering that he in fact did say that, which seems I'm not gonna say impossible. I'm gonna label that as improbable. There's a it'd be badass if it was real, though.
+
+[48:23] If I could, I would sit around for like days just being a little bit more. Just buying cases of it and just chink, chink, chink, chink. There's a certain uh lawyer, bartender from Mexico City that I think we can ask. Yes. Who may or may not be working with us on our may or may not next project, which we may or may not announce if we ever get a freaking lease.
+
+[48:43] You should not, people, you should not get me started on New York City, especially on community board three, and how anti-business, how what a just a rancid group of like protein scum, they are. Like they are the nastiness around the outside of a bathtub that hasn't been cleaned properly in the last five decades. Like, that's where they are from a standpoint of humanity. They care nothing about what their fellow human all they want to do is crap on the dreams of their fellow citizens. That's all.
+
+[49:24] They have no dreams of their own other than to crap on your dreams. And that is what fulfills their lives. So speaking of protein scum, what you say it's accurate? I'm not being inaccurate, am I? But am I being inaccurate?
+
+[49:39] They have uh certain goals that I do not think are realistic, and uh, you know, it's to each their own. Uh it is the world that we live in. No, but people that we will. No, listen, listen, listen. If my own, if the if the my own that you're leaving me up to is to just spend my days trying to prevent you from doing something that's not gonna have any bearing on my life, is that valid?
+
+[50:02] Well, that's your your assumption is that it's not gonna have any bearing on their life. They believe it has a direct bearing on their life. I mean, maybe they're just getting prepped for Congress. Anyway, so on Whey, so I use Whey. We were we still talking about Whey?
+
+[50:19] Seaway. Seaway. So I use whey, but I've never added direct like whey powder. Like it's just I've always used like whole milk and then broken it. Um I don't know.
+
+[50:29] Like milk powder, milk solids and anything? Nope. Um what do you think about using uh whey instead of aquafaba? Oh gee, why are you trying to do this to me? Don't just try this.
+
+[50:40] Listen, uh you know what I use milk powder in? I use milk powder in uh English muffins, which by the way, I'm not too proud to say, uh too proud to say I use Alton Brown's English muffin recipe. And he uses milk powder in it, and I think Alton Brown has a fine English muffin recipe, and you can get it on the internet on the Food Network website for the for the serious, it's not serious, so what's it called? Good eats, right? Uh I think his English muffin recipe is is good and it uses milk powder.
+
+[51:08] I'm also getting uh I've been working on trying to do Chinese um the uh lava buns, you know, the uh like the custard lava buns, uh and those use evaporated milk. And so I'm getting interested, and there's a huge there's a whole train of thought on mac and cheese with evaporated milk. Ooh. Yeah. Interesting.
+
+[51:32] Doesn't break. Right, it's already concentrated, and you know, it adds that kind of like I'm a little worried on some of these preps that if you because the problem is if you over dope on milk solids, you can get uh lactose crystals uh condensing out, and then it's grainy. So like one of the reasons not to go too high on milk solids and ice cream, let's say, is that at low temperatures, especially, you get lactose crystals that kind of ruin the texture of the ice cream. But I've been working on these condensed dairy things. So I'm also like, you know, Don and I, you know, if we ever get this bar open, like we're gonna have to have some sort of snack program.
+
+[52:04] We're gonna do something interesting. So I've been looking at it. So what else have I been playing? Not with whey, I've been playing around, I've been very obsessed recently with dried mushrooms. I've been on a dried mushroom cake.
+
+[52:14] I've been eating uh preposterous amounts of wood ear mushrooms. Just like stupid quantities of wood ear mushrooms. It's one of the most satisfying things to bite into. Yo, yeah. Oh yeah.
+
+[52:28] The texture of a wood ear mushroom is just like like on point. Yeah. It's an on point texture. I would imagine, like, if you're like, I don't love tripe or some of those like kind of gelatinous, chewy cartilaginates things, but the woodier gets me there without the like squeamish, I'm eating weird animal parts. Yeah, and they're so easy to keep in your house, and they gain ten times their weight in water.
+
+[52:55] I measured it. It was ten times. I got it ten times like the thing, and like uh, and it's just, I don't know, yeah, they're so satisfying, and you're like, they're so s but you know what I realized recently is like uh you want to buy the higher quality woody mushrooms. If you buy the cheapest possible woody or mushrooms, there's still substrate left on the mushroom where they rip it off, and then you can get grit. So if you spend a little bit more on your woody or mushrooms, it takes a lot less time in the prep.
+
+[53:23] You know what I've been working on now though? You ever have the you ever buy the snow fungus? No. So that's the the snow fungus, I forget the name of it. Uh it starts with a T.
+
+[53:33] It's the one that looks like that looks like a scrubby pad, like a white scrubby pad, right? And those are amazing. Also, like a texture-based mushroom, but you can do a lot of funky stuff with that. So I've been working a lot with that. It's another like absorbs an incredible amount of stuff, but I've been working on these these mushrooms for I don't know why.
+
+[53:53] Huge dried mushroom cake. There's uh any kind of correlation to your children now being vegetarians and enemies of quality. Uh, well, again, for those of you that haven't tuned in recently, Booker and Dax have both decided to be vegetarian, but they're that they're vegetarians who don't like mushrooms. So Jen, my wife, was making so Jen's decided for some reason that she's gonna start cooking. I'm like, well, if you learn to cook, then I'm just afraid she's gonna divorce me because what is she gonna need me for anymore?
+
+[54:20] She already learned how to make coffee. Like, like two, three years ago, like she's like, All right, Dave, I'm gonna learn how to use the espresso machine. I'm like, really? You're gonna learn how to make your own coffee? She's like, Yeah, so I taught her how to make coffee, so she doesn't need me for that.
+
+[54:29] You know, she's the one that pays the bills. Uh so if she learns to cook, like I'm done. The hell does she need me for? You know what I mean? Dog walker.
+
+[54:43] Thank you. Yes. I'm still the one who, but she's doing that right now while I'm here in California. But yeah, yeah. So I'm just getting grim.
+
+[54:49] Yeah, it's toast. Toast. Like, you know, I'm a firm. I'd be the world's worst bachelor. If I was not, if I was not married, I would be homeless.
+
+[55:01] Like I would you'd be the leather man. I would be the leather man. I mean, uh, I'm like, I would be like, I am like, but for my wife and my family, I am a non-functional human being. Like, like, I'm like, even like this is honest truth, is like, is like I need a support network to live. Because I am not like, you know, what's the word?
+
+[55:29] Like uh connected to other people in a normal way. You know what I mean? Like, I don't communicate. True story. You know, uh, I don't do things that people think are reasonable.
+
+[55:42] You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, it makes it uh makes it difficult. But anyway, so listen, people, uh next week we will also be doing uh this convention. We'll be in Pittsburgh. Uh so we could actually bring the same crowd back again um next week.
+
+[56:00] But uh next week we're gonna try to actually get some questions from Nastasia, maybe get Nastasia a call in because we're gonna be on the same time zone. Uh, but we'll look forward. And so I didn't answer any of your questions from this week. I apologize. We'll try to get to it next week on cooking issues.
+
+[56:24] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[56:53] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook. For free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:19] Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. It's Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you, pre-recorded from the Ace Hotel in Pittsburgh, PA! Joined not as usual with Nastasi the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:54] She is not here. She is in New York City. And Dave is also not in the booth because we are pre-recorded from the Ace Hotel in Pittsburgh. But we do have, uh just like last week, the evil cocktail overlord of the universe, Don Lee. Benevolent.
+
+[1:11] Now benevol now that he's my new business partner, I guess he's supposed to be benevolent. But I thought you liked being the secret evil. The secret evil, the operative word is secret. So we've gone through this before. So wait, uh, you have to refresh me because it's a little late in the evening.
+
+[1:29] I know you're much more into the kind of uh Star Wars universe timeline. Which like when is he good? Is he good when he's Senator Palpatine? No. Always bad.
+
+[1:39] Well, when is he theoretically good? When does Amidala still listen to him? When what his name is what? That's why he's a secret overlord in the beginning. He's secret bad.
+
+[1:49] Kevin, you haven't been introduced yet. Also joined again with Kevin Denton, who is the Illite I I swear to I swear to God. Is that true story, Kevin? It's just national, David. Oh, well, what about Canada?
+
+[2:12] What about Canada? I think we have, yeah, we have something grandfathered in that I take Canada too. That's two countries. On request. That's two Americans.
+
+[2:20] That's two countries. Yeah. You've been to Mexico. What about Mexico? It's the best place on Earth.
+
+[2:26] Do they have their own Kevin Denton or are you the Kevin Denton of Mexico as well? I would imagine they have someone better. Oh, well, Kevin Denton, for those of you that don't know, and you can't call in your questions because this is pre-recorded. But if you could, you could have called in about the bar program at uh WD50 or at Alder about what he's doing uh at Prono Recard now. But you know what uh something we didn't discuss last week, because you by the way, the reason we're doing these pre-recorded is um uh we've all been fortunate enough for the past uh week and a half to be doing a multi-city tour discussing new and interesting bar techniques where Don and I have been doing demonstrations to bartenders in uh in uh Pittsburgh, Denver, and San Diego about kind of new techniques in the bar industry, but also they we've been doing uh presentations the folk good folks from Death and Company and and and uh uh whatnot have been doing presentations on what was their presentation on, Kevin, technically the art of training.
+
+[3:19] Right, which is actually important. I think people don't people it was actually really good talk. People don't take training, uh they don't take training, it's not they don't take it seriously, they don't think far enough in advance about how important training is, both in a in a culinary as uh standpoint and I guess they do. You know, I would think people take training more seriously in a culinary standpoint, not in front of house, but in back of house. Uh but bar, you know, bar training, I think is an important, important thing.
+
+[3:45] And it's taken seriously by people who are working as consultants doing multi, like multi, uh, you know, like they're doing multiple bars. They they have to roll out their training because they can't always be there, right? Well, I think you made a good point earlier that like if you really want to know something, you should have to teach someone how to do it, right? If you train someone, then you really have to know what you're doing in the first place. And I feel like those guys really know what they're doing and therefore are really able to articulate good training.
+
+[4:14] Right. You know what's uh the dumbest saying in the world? Those who can't do teach. That's the dumbest damn saying in the whole freaking world. Like, if you can't, in the culinary world, and in many other worlds, I assume as well, if you can't teach, it means you don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about.
+
+[4:36] You know what I mean? It's uh I mean I guess there are people who are just non-communic non-communicative kind of savants who are really good practitioners, but you know, the inability to be able to articulate what you're doing and teach the next like group of people how to do it, just means that you're you know, maybe useful for your customers, but you're not useful to the future of the profession. So anyway, I think that's a crappy, crappy saying. And we have new guest today, Brian Bartels. So Brian wrote a book that just came out this uh this year called Um The Bloody Mary.
+
+[5:13] Now, what's the it's the lore, give me the full. War and legend of the classic cocktail of Brunch and Beyond uh for every little school kid who's ever wanted to aspire to make a Bloody Mary. Wait, so that's the longest title at all time. Yeah, yeah, it's true. True enough.
+
+[5:29] That's true. So give me some give me some lore and legend. Lore and legend. Uh the book itself, The Bloody Mary book, published by Tenspeed in March of 2017. Uh it basically establishes the background history of the Bloody Mary, uh, how it came to be named the Bloody Mary, and also 50 recipes, three different categories, encapsulating classic recipes, modern recipes, and then hosting party large format recipes.
+
+[5:55] Um, so give me some quick history. So Bloody Mary, is it some sort of Mary Queen of Scots thing or what? It's not. She didn't drink a lot of tomato juice. One of the four legends is Mary Queen of Scots, which is great, but um at the same time, not the validity of what we uh have come to know today as our our our favorable first cocktail of the day.
+
+[6:12] So what well, so what's the what's the what's the current accepted history of the Bloody Mary cocktail? It's established in and corresponded with um Mary Warbarton, who is a socialite, a Philadelphia socialite if there ever was one. Amazing name, Warbarton. Warbarton. A very fair family from Philadelphia.
+
+[6:35] Definitely, definitely rich. I mean, if I had Dexter, Dexter C.K. Haven. Dexter. If I had the $50 to go down to City Hall, I would change my name to Warbart Warbart.
+
+[6:47] We all would. The four of us could be the four mighty Warbartons. Uh that'd be amazing. Okay, so that's a Wes Anderson film, isn't it? It could be actually the next Anderson film.
+
+[6:56] Why so why would they name it after her first name, which is you know, nice but unremarkable when it could have been called the Bloody Warbarton. That is a much more badass name. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a Scotch trick.
+
+[7:08] Yeah. So talk. In Prohibition 1927 in Florida, there was a uh that's not where I want to be. It's the golden age. This is the golden age.
+
+[7:20] George Jessel was a vaudevillian entertainer, comedian, actor, what have you. Um was he any good? Have you seen any of his work in the house? Never seen a single thing that he's done other than his Smyrnoff ads. He was a Smyrnoff campaign ambassador in the 50s.
+
+[7:33] Really? Yeah. Um how were his ads? Uh his ads were uh he had a little bit of a barrel chest. He had six pack ads.
+
+[7:43] Yeah, like he looked like uh like a a beefier Bob Hope. Um before Bob Hope was I guess when Bob Hope was skinny at the time, because he was probably alive in 1950. Oh, he was live up and come on, man. How about Bob Hope was alive until like in my life recently? I mean, Bob Hope lived to be a billion.
+
+[8:01] Yeah. Um listen, Mary Warbarton clearly caused a lot of trouble. Yeah, Mary Warbarton, Florida, some vault villain dude, 20s. 1927, okay. When vodka was not even available.
+
+[8:13] Um George Jessel claims that he was looking behind the bar after an all night drinking out outfit with uh all of his friends, and they were trying to stay up. It was 8 a.m. and he grabbed bottles behind the bar to make a concoction. I don't believe that this. This is not a story I believe.
+
+[8:28] It's not a story I it's not a story I wholeheartedly believe either, but uh it gets associated with every bloody Mary story that's ever been like this. Sounds like uh a lie. Don, what do you think? Is this a lie? I don't know.
+
+[8:40] I I'm just shocked by the Wikipedia fact that Kevin Denton showed me that Bob Hop Hope was born in n in 1903. Yeah, Bob. So in the 1950s, Bob Hope was 50 years old. He was my age. Not even like before 1950.
+
+[8:55] This man lived to be a hundred. He died in 2003. Yeah, yeah, which to me is yesterday. 2003 for me is yesterday. I would rather Bob Hope created the Bloody Mary to be a very good thing.
+
+[8:59] Alright, alright. This Vavilian Smirnoff peddler and Mary Warbarton are hanging out, sweating their sweating their tukases off. Sweating their turkeys off in 1927, Florida, and the guy happens to find a buttload of tomato juice behind the bar. Why you would have tomato juice in 1927 in Florida? Only God knows.
+
+[9:26] Right, okay, so okay, so let's let's carry this improbable story to its conclusion. What happens? He makes all of these he basically assembles Worcestershire lemon juice vodke, which he calls vodki because uh it was a potato uh a rancid smelling spirit that is like this is a horror show, okay. Go ahead. Exactly.
+
+[9:46] Um he brings all of these all these items together along with the tomato juice, which had just only recently been canned. Um by the Sacramento Corporation? By Cottagen. Um Michigan. And uh once he puts what were you about to say?
+
+[10:06] Once he puts everything together for Mary Warbarton uh and all of his other friends, everyone deems it an actual acceptable savory drink. They're all talking, drinking, having fun, still up all night, and the drink gets spilled on Mary Warbarton's white dress. And she jokingly says, George, now you can call me a bloody Mary. Um, so is this a weird, is this a weird, like I agree, though. Is this a weird, like, is it just a blood reference?
+
+[10:34] Is it a sexual reference? Is it like, is it some sort of like Dave family show? Well, I'm just curious, like, no, this is a this is history, so this is history. Talking about, I mean, Duran Duran wasn't a band yet, but like at the same time. Very much not so.
+
+[10:42] Like, you know. It could have been. Mary Warburton could have been Rio, and she could have been dancing on the sand, but it's all right. Well, I see where you're trying to go with this, but this is one of those stories that to me sounds like uh far-fetched. Well, horse hockey.
+
+[11:02] You know what I mean? And so, like, also, like, uh, I don't know whether you've ever had a drink mixed by a vaudevillion in the morning when they're hung over in the piss-hot heat. Doesn't seem fair if you know, I mean, like, I'm like, they're the only people that would come up with the combination of tomato and worships, you know, at that time of day. That sounds like crazy talk to me. And a very kind of like not vodka town, like, no one in Florida then was drinking vodka.
+
+[11:32] No. Like, you know, uh, you know, Martha Stewart wasn't even like alive then, much less drinking. So no one was drinking like like vodka in Florida at that point. And, you know, it just seems very not sort of feasible. No, but the way that the Bloody Mary actually developed and and was eventually um, I think established was because of um Fernand Petiu, uh Pete Petiu is his nickname was.
+
+[12:02] Uh, Pete Petou. Pete Petiou, uh bartender at the St. Regis. PD Pablo's, like the King Cole Bar. What, the what?
+
+[12:09] This is the King Cole Bar in St. Regis um in uh New York. He um just off of uh Central Park. Yeah, but that's not extant. Oh, it's still there, yeah.
+
+[12:19] Really? Uh great martinis. It's like gonna be like a 10-ounce martini, but why would I want a 10-ounce martini? That's a nightmare. Give me two five-ounce martinis.
+
+[12:27] That's a freaking nightmare, people, the end of the world has happened. Two five-ounce martinis is what you want. But also go for the mural, Humpty Dumpty, uh, beautiful mural. It's one of the sexiest rooms in New York. Yeah, it's it's a great room.
+
+[12:41] Yeah? Yeah. They recently did a uh anniversary Bloody Mary party a couple years ago. Ostensibly the birthplace of the Bloody Mary. Oh, I thought you just said your boy's two.
+
+[12:53] Your boy's two rabbit holes here. That's the name of the Bloody Mary. And way them down blame it on Hemingway. It was ostensibly created by George Chessel. Okay, listen.
+
+[13:02] Pete Petiou was the was the bartender who brought basically what I uh liken to say is if Jessel owned the Cadillac, Pete Petiou took it out onto the highway and developed it. So there's been a hard enough time locating the identity of who created the Bloody Mary. When this guy died, when did Pet You die? Uh, late 60s, early 70s. So claims in 1964 in a New Yorker article that George Jessel created it, but then I developed it.
+
+[13:35] So Petiu put in. He name calls this Jessel dude. Yeah. So it's Jessel's. No, it's not.
+
+[13:43] Wait, you're telling me that Jessel didn't even have like any sort of spice in it? Then it's not a freaking Bloody Mary. Exactly, which is why I think Petsy's one who develops exactly. Our modern day version of the Bloody Mary is Petius. It's Petiu.
+
+[13:56] So I give Peti the credit for establishing the Bloody Mary. I don't know if you know this, but I like listening to David Wandridge, who, for those of you who aren't in the cocktail world, is like the cocktail writer about history par excellence. But uh I enjoy the histories of the cocktails, but I find them almost always to be garbage and unsatisfying. In fact, most histories and most etymologies I find, unless they are they just don't have kind of meaning to me. You have to do it, you have to talk about it.
+
+[14:26] People ask you for it, but it doesn't really talk about why you think X, Y, or Z thing is important, right? So let's get to the more important meat rather than trying to think of like these knucklehead hungover fools in the 20s in Florida, which why would you live in Florida before air conditioning? Like, why would you live in that? There's no DEET, right? You had no DEET, no DEET.
+
+[14:51] You had no air conditioning. You could have had DDT. I don't know, did they in the 20s? It's like a 70s, yeah. 70s.
+
+[15:00] That's 50 years. You're looking out you're living in a place without bug spray and without air conditioning. It's just sketers and gators all freaking day. Palmetto, palmetto bugs, sulfurous groundwater. Like Florida is fine now because we have civilization to override the inherent nightmare that is the flat sandy bar that is that state of Florida, which is a fine place, but not in the freaking 20s.
+
+[15:34] Is that before after Jerry Seinfeld's uh parents moved there? I soon before. And you know, you know, they have a whole breed of cattle in Florida, the cracker cows that are in fact like these cows that are bred. They're these skinny, scrawny, weirdo cows that can stand hanging out in the humid heat, poor soil, palmetto eating, like bug nastiness that is Florida prior to modern technology. Can they handle uh brackish water?
+
+[16:01] Are they like the Osabao pig? Because that sounds delicious. Or like the uh the uh San Michelle sheep of the Florida. Maybe I've never had a Florida uh cracker cow. Someone out there why are you railing on cracker cows if you never had one?
+
+[16:13] I'm not. I think they're awesome. In theory, I've never eaten one. Well, that was that was a foot club, right? No, I never say anything about bad about the cow.
+
+[16:21] The cow's a tough son of a cow. It's a cow. It's like tough. In fact, there's a whole sub there's a guy named uh Rhett, what's his last name? I forget.
+
+[16:30] He's a pastor and a uh cow whip maker. And he was vaudillion. He's alive today. Don't make fun of this man. He's a real life human being with children, and he makes cow whips out of nylon because in Florida it's so humid that if you make a leather whip, it will rot into nothingness in in like two seconds flat.
+
+[16:49] I've been told that kangaroo leather is the best uh leather for making whips. Yes, but they don't have kangaroos in front of them. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that kangaroo leather is the finest whip making leather in the world. This is like, if you don't know that, why am I even talking to you?
+
+[17:02] Like, if this is not just a freaking given that kangaroo leather is the toughest, supplest, best cracking whip leather that God has ever created, then there is no further discussion for us to have about any subject. That's our sponsor this week, right? Yeah, Kangaroo Leather.com. You know, uh the guy, David Morgan, who made the whips for uh the Indiana Jones movie, uh he He obviously uses Australian kangaroo hide for his uh better whips, sometimes with some kind of BS regular like cow uh belly on the inside uh and just kangaroo on the outside for his lesser whips. But uh the yeah, Australia is the best whip-producing country in the world by far, and it's because they have the best raw materials.
+
+[17:55] They are the DRC, if you will, of uh whip making. And it's just a known fact. And what's strange is is that all of us as Americans are completely obsessed with the bull whip because we grew up with Indiana Jones and his crappy fedora, which is by the way, wore a crappy fedora. Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and say that. I love myself some Harrison Ford.
+
+[18:19] He once pushed me aside at an art event years ago, and I was like, ooh, I was shoved aside like a piece of garbage by Harrison Ford. I finally made it in the art world in New York. And um, you know, I love Harrison Ford, but that is not what the like the traditional Australian whip is like. They they use a different style of whip in Australia, and I think since they have the kangaroos, we should probably look at their style of whip because they probably have something to tell us. Just saying.
+
+[18:49] Uh I don't know how we got on that subject. We were talking about Bloody Marys. Yeah. So my question is, uh, Brian, yeah. Why uh why did you get interested in the book?
+
+[19:01] Do you like Bloody Marys? In other words, here's my question. So, like, I do a lot of work with cocktails. Sometimes, like, I do a lot of work, but someone's like, Would you order that? I'm like, no.
+
+[19:09] I no, I would not order that. I would have a glass of rosette instead. So, do you actually order the Bloody Marys? And why is it only a breakfast drink? Is it because it's gloppy and no one wants to drink gloppy stuff at night?
+
+[19:20] Or what? Well, it was the first cocktail I ever learned to make. I had to learn to make it in order to be a bartender. So that was part of my introduction and a huge part of it. If I wanted to be a PM bartender, if I wanted to learn how to make cocktails, I had to make a Bloody Mary at brunch.
+
+[19:37] It's part one. Part two was So what's the brunch customer like? Well, in Wisconsin. Well, for yeah, from your side, from the bartender side, what's a brunch customer like? When I was learning to make the Bloody Mary, or what the modern day version of a brunch customer is like.
+
+[19:53] Yeah, well, your choice. Like, what are your feelings about brunch customers? People are very thirsty, and uh the lack of uh correspondence or communication is sometimes a little gray with uh with people. I uh I understand that you're still trying to wake up. You're trying to shouldn't you know what they want?
+
+[20:11] You should cut it. They either want a mimosa or bloody mary, Brian. Like there's two things they want. But they want a coffee, they want to they call want a coffee, they want a water, they want like big water. There's water glass.
+
+[20:23] There's abstractions to like what the request of a brunch of a brunch drinker really wants. It's kind of confusing, but at the same time, you're there to like facilitate any request. So I'm assuming you also had to make mimosas. Why didn't you write the mimosa book? I didn't have to make a lot of mimosas in my 20-year career as a bartender.
+
+[20:42] I actually didn't have to make a lot of mimosis. What? I feel blessed. What do you what are your thoughts on the bellini? Uh I didn't have to make a lot of bellini's.
+
+[20:50] No, no, no. Don didn't ask you whether you had to make them. Don said, What are your thoughts on the bellini? I don't think much about the bellini. Oh.
+
+[20:57] When you don't think about it, or you think it's a garbage drink? I don't think much about it. Here's my point. I think a bellini can be delicious, often it's not. I have the same feeling about Bloody Marys, frankly.
+
+[21:07] So why don't you tell me why so many Bloody Marys are garbage and how you make one that's not garbage? Good question. Um well to follow up on your previous question, I actually my palate had to evolve. That's how I got to like Bloody Marys and started to engage them a little bit more. What do you think you just called your palate not evolved?
+
+[21:28] My palate is somewhat, it's constantly being being checked, uh, which is important. But at the same time, um what was your question again? First, well, why do you choose to write a book on Bloody Mary's? And you say it's the first drink you had to perfect. Second, like why, like, what makes a Bloody Mary good, and so many are garbage, and why are so many garbage?
+
+[21:50] And third, I'll tack on to this. Why is it only a breakfast drink? Is it because nobody wants to drink gloppy drinks at dinner? Um you need him to chime in, Dave has plenty of opinions. By the way, by the way, I don't mean I don't mean gloppy in a pejorative way.
+
+[22:10] No, no, that's okay. Um I actually feel like the reason I got so involved in it, and the more I started writing about it and researching and and developing the Bloody Marys was um I I actually don't like the viscous, soupy, thicker versions of Bloody Marys. I think the the the bad Bloody Marys are the uh pre-packaged Bloody Marys. If they're housemade, I'm a little bit more um inclined to try them. And actually, in the book tour that I've been doing, everybody's been told been telling me that uh their response to Bloody Marys and how they enjoy them that much more in the last five-10 years has been directly related to um people who are creating them, creating them from like the ground up.
+
+[22:56] And I think that's important actually, uh, because you're channeling a certain kind of texture and dimension with however you're making your Bloody Mary. If you're using pre-packaged Bloody Marys, um Well, come on, come on, please. I mean, please. You know, please. If you're gonna have a cheese plate, you don't pull out the craft singles.
+
+[23:15] No. Craft singles are great on certain things, Kevin. Kevin Denton is giving me the stink eye. I'm just saying it's not a cheese plate. If you're gonna make an analogy like that, say something bad at the end.
+
+[23:28] If it's gonna be X, don't be Y. If Y is superior, like singles are better than most Bloody Mary mixes. I know it's apples or oranges, but in the grand scheme of things, true. What? True which I would eat craft singles before I would eat pre-bagged Bloody Mary mix.
+
+[23:46] Craft singles any day. Okay, okay. I'm gonna throw out a random, I'm gonna throw out two random ones for you. Okay. One, V8 as a base instead of other stuff.
+
+[23:55] Hate. Well, I have to backtrack a little bit. I can be not liking V8 or tomato juice. I never drank it. It was a it was something I tried.
+
+[24:09] I think I tried it when I was a little kid and I didn't like the taste of it. But my pality. You know what I really love a lot? I used to love the weird little cans with the pull tab and the absurdly small teardrop-shaped hole in the V8 can. Yeah.
+
+[24:21] Alright, go ahead. Those are great. Those are great. Um, no, but V8. This goes to show no one actually wanted to drink it.
+
+[24:28] Yeah, sucking the V8 out of that can with that little hole. It's thinner, which is why I think people who don't like Bloody Marys are more akin to actually being open-minded about liking stuff like that. It's actually a vast um I'm I'm impressed by like how people feel about like it was a gateway drug to gizpacho for me. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it.
+
+[24:51] The thick soupy Bloody Marys, the thin, what about an alcoholic gazpacho? I think I think the gazpacho actually brought me to the Bloody Mary because I never like the Bloody Mary, but I do like Gespacho. Cospacho's delicious. You know what I don't like? Blended gazpacho that hasn't been put through a vacuum to suck the air out.
+
+[25:06] Gazpacho that looks like a freaking foamy mess. What if uh you're like getting the what is it, the Salmoreño, the one that's made with the bread, like torn leftover bread from the body. That's good. You should still hand chop it and let it soak in. You shouldn't blend the hell out of it so that it's all foamed and airy.
+
+[25:20] That's like a nightmare. That just means that you hate quality, you hate everything. This is why you cheat and use a blender, but own a vacuum machine so you can suck the air out and get the color back in the gazpacho. This was literally the first thing I taught people how to do in culinary school with the vacuum machine is take tomato puree and stop it from looking like nonsense that comes out of a freaking blender. Yeah, because nobody's gonna be a little bit stuff.
+
+[25:46] Yeah. It's so gross. Gross, disgusting. People don't like that. Alright, so here's another one for you.
+
+[25:50] Yep, ready, Brian? Yep. Okay. So I'm playing my wife. Okay.
+
+[25:54] And you're gonna con you're playing me. Okay. Convince me. I don't I don't like drinking in the morning. I don't want a bloody Mary.
+
+[26:01] You're a dumbass. Now, convince me. Uh I'm playing you? You're me, yeah. Convince me.
+
+[26:09] Convince me that like. Oh, yeah. Remember, channel an emotional robot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but like, alright, I don't understand.
+
+[26:20] Why do you just not like drinking in the morning? Like it doesn't sound like me. You're asking someone else's feelings. This doesn't sound like me. When we say you don't like drinking in the morning, do you mean alcohol or do you mean all things?
+
+[26:32] Because I think you drink coffee. Yeah. So, alright, let's. I don't want to drink alcohol. What am I?
+
+[26:37] An alcoholic? First of all, this is soupy. This is the morning. Do you go to meetings? No, not an alcoholic.
+
+[26:43] Dave, we have kids. This is irresponsible. Why would I want to do it? Oh, now I guess now you're. I have to break character.
+
+[26:52] I have to break character now. Why don't you take the Virgin Mary and the Virginia V8? There's tons of vitamins and vegetables in V8. So if we give the kids. Alright, listen, listen.
+
+[27:03] I don't want to have alcohol in the morning. Why should I have alcohol in the morning? Hmm. Why should you not have alcohol in the morning? Because I do what I want.
+
+[27:12] Why should you have alcohol in the colour? Is this coming from three bartenders? Here's the point try to convince. Okay, it's a well-known fact that once you're in an airport, there is no time. We're convincing.
+
+[27:25] Okay, I've got to go. Here, here, it's real simple. If you don't want to drink in the morning, don't do it. No one cares. No peer pressure.
+
+[27:31] Yeah, but Brian wrote a book on Bloody Mary's, which is a drink you're only allowed to drink in the morning. What do you think about people who are you can drink it anytime you want? What? Listen, if you want it, just you can drink it. Oh, yeah, yeah, a lot.
+
+[27:42] You're allowed to drink a wait, wait. Are you guys, are the three of you saying that I can walk into a bar in the evening time when the sun has gone down? Certainly, and say, excuse me, I work in the nighttime. This is the morning. Give me a bloody Mary.
+
+[28:01] Or can I say, I'm a regular person, this is the nighttime for me, and I would like a Bloody Mary. You can, in fact, say that. Wait. So this is yet another barrier to good taste that has been thrown out the window. Like when you're allowed to wear white clothing, when you're allowed to order a gin and tonic.
+
+[28:21] You may be a poor quality human being. Oh. But you could say it. Oh, well, I can do anything. I can I can shove pencils up my nose, like blockhead, but my I don't.
+
+[28:30] But you could also drink in the afternoon if you want. But my question is. Because I do what I want. My point is, is that you don't order Bloody Marys at night, do you? And you ever order.
+
+[28:38] I order Bloody Marys never. Oh, alright, why? Give me a tequila and sangrita. I'm in. Me chilada, I'm in.
+
+[28:46] Bloody Mary? Okay, so let's have this talk. The man wrote a book on Bloody Marys. So I'm trying to get to. The man wrote a book on Bloody Marys.
+
+[28:53] Here we have Don Lee, supposedly benevolent, cocktail orderlord, Kevin Denton, Grand Vaziern or otherwise Bruno Ricard, USA. And I have a man that says he doesn't order. What about you, Kevin? Let's be honest. Do you order Bloody Marys?
+
+[29:05] When I want one. Which is? Occasionally. When? Typically when I want some.
+
+[29:12] You know what the best time to have a Bloody Mary is on a long morning flight when you don't leave first thing in the morning. Like first thing in the morning, I just want to go to sleep, right? Right. Okay. Uh when you like bored at 8 and you're on like a three or four hour flight.
+
+[29:29] The thing is, the Mrs. T's spicy Bloody Mary mix is. Is that a thing that exists? Without a doubt. Who's this lady?
+
+[29:36] Is she related to Mr. T? Me, it's actually Mr. and Mrs. T's.
+
+[29:39] Really? It was a M. But it is Mr. T. No.
+
+[29:41] The Mr. T's M. It's nice that they did it together, right? Oh. Well, I mean, that's a character.
+
+[29:47] Mr. T is a human. It's true. At any rate. I'm Pity of the Fool.
+
+[29:53] Once you have that, like, sometimes you want that uh chilled, salty, savory thing to sort of press the button that some peanuts or some garbage like cookie is not gonna press. Delta makes delicious cookies. Morning flight, man. When you fly cattle class, you don't get the delicious cookies, alright? You're in the back and you're like, I'm gonna split this Mr.
+
+[30:19] and Mrs. T's with somebody next to me because 16 or uh 12 ounces is too much of it. And you need to cut it like with a little bit of water. But when it's a little watered down and a little salty and a little savory, that's kind of a lifesaver mid meal, particularly if you're flying and changing a bunch of time zones and you're getting in, like, oh, we're closed for lunch at three, or it's morning where you are now. Like it's sort of a mediator of time zones where you can have a savory thing anytime.
+
+[30:50] You know when I like it? When I like it best, because I'm not a morning drinker either. I don't like drinking in the morning. Uh, and you know, I don't do brunch that often, and when I do, it's with kids and not with that also. I'm not drinking.
+
+[31:01] I like a I like Bloody Mary not in a full cocktail format. I like it in a shorter shot format in a group before I'm about to have a bunch of raw bar. Like, because to me, like, those like go together really well. So, like, you're gonna have like the equivalent of a half a cocktail, you're gonna shoot it real fast, and you're gonna have it right before you're about to pound like a whole boatload of like mussels, shrimp, oysters, that kind of stuff. That's a win.
+
+[31:30] Crab. Crab, if you're gonna have a lot of crab, bloody merry, tomato, delicious. This is a good mix. Sure. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:38] Sure, if you're a weenie that has to have cocktail sauce with their raw bar, I mean. Did I say I was gonna pour cocktail sauce on my raw bar? You pretty much did by saying you wanted a Bloody Mary beforehand. Uh look, I'm being told that we've already been going. I've not answered a single question, which I have many.
+
+[31:54] Classic. So we're gonna go to a commercial break in a minute. I'm not saying I have to cocktail sauce on my raw bar. In fact, like if you take the time to dip crab meat into anything, you have wasted time. You just need to shovel like crab meat into your face as fast as you can.
+
+[32:11] Can we all agree? Can we all agree, for the love of God, that crab is the most superior crustacean that exists. Crab is infinitely superior to lobster. For meat. Yeah.
+
+[32:24] Lobster shells, I think make a better uh uh stock. Fair, but shrimp heads also make an excellent stunt. Also true. Also, delicious when fried. Yes.
+
+[32:35] I love sucking on shrimp heads. But for meat, sucking on shrimp heads. Crab is king. Crab. Crab.
+
+[32:42] Crab. Crab is king. I'm a king. Crab. Okay, by the way, have you ever, have you guys ever had live king crab cooked directly, not frozen?
+
+[32:52] No. No, I've never been to Alaska. You don't have to. You can spend a lot of money and have uh true world foods owned by the Moonies. I'm poor.
+
+[33:01] You can work for a company that does it for free. You think I paid for the King Crab when I was working for FCI? I spent all my money on the crack. Kevin Denton, will you buy me King Crab? Kevin, can Prono Ricard buy Don Lee's and Live King Crab?
+
+[33:11] I'll tell you. And listen, for those of you that haven't had the world's most dangerous catch live, like live King Crab is as delicious as you think it is. It is just crazy delicious. Because crab meat is the sweetest, most umami laden, delicious crustacean meat that can be bought. Do you think masochistic crabs keep butter on them?
+
+[33:40] Are you familiar? I think I've spoken about this years ago. Are you familiar with the movie? What was it called? Was it called Night Shift with Henry Winkler?
+
+[33:50] Multiple times. Yes. And yeah, so yes, feed the tune of the mayonnaise while they're still alive, Kevin. That's that's what one should do. And we'll be back with more cooking issues.
+
+[34:11] Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiasts, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon.
+
+[34:42] Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy. It's not really new anymore, Dave. It's like, you know. Anyway. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[34:53] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. And we're back! So uh Don Lee has brought us some interesting Kit Kats. What are these, Don? These are uh sake Kit Cats.
+
+[35:13] What is a white chocolate cake cat that tastes like sake? We know there are two words I don't like together, white and chocolate. You know I was just Chocolate fat. There you go. Kit Kat tastes like sake.
+
+[35:29] I kind of understand what they mean by the sake, but it's in your finish. I think it might taste like sake. It really tastes like sake. I like it. It's like Nagori sake.
+
+[35:37] Mm-hmm. Super ricey. Pre shaven. You like that? I really do.
+
+[35:41] Sake Kit Kat. Good call. Do you know? The chocolate rain fellow Te Zande followed me recently. I put this on my uh Twitter feed.
+
+[35:49] I did see this. Yes. He has followed 604,000 other people before he followed me. And I later found out, because I kind of called the robot that is Te Zande's Twitter uh machine out on this fact. And he's like, well, if people follow me back, I keep them.
+
+[36:10] And if they don't, I don't. So that means he probably followed 8 billion people before me. I'm probably literally the last Twitter person on earth that Tay Zonde has followed. But I'm I did go back and listen to Chocolate Rain once because I was followed. He liked chocolate rain.
+
+[36:30] Good man. Everyone likes chocolate rain. Uh we have some questions. We got ready to answer some questions? Let's questions.
+
+[36:37] Hey Dave Nastasia, David in the booth. Dave is not here in the booth. Remember, I told you I'm in Pittsburgh. Don, if you're there, nice. Uh and of course, uh, everybody's favorite punching bag, Peter Kim.
+
+[36:48] Alas, Peter Kim is not here. He's too lazy to come out to Kitchener. He's in Africa. He's in Tanzania right now. Yeah.
+
+[36:54] Uh he might actually still be in Ethiopia, and when he comes back from Ethiopia, he has a lot to report on because he's will is very interested in the special Ethiopian egg. So in Ethiopia, they have two kinds of eggs, like foreigner eggs, which are like the normal eggs that we have and special Ethiopian eggs, and he's gonna try to run down. He's eaten some uh in the past couple days. He's gonna try to run down what that is. He's also gonna try to tell us uh about interesting foods he had in um uh you can follow him on the Instagram.
+
+[37:20] He's uh been posting pictures of eggs, right? Yeah, if you want to follow Peter Kim on Instagram, I recommend that. Yeah, he's been posting some egg pictures. Uh anyway, he's not here, so we can't beat on him. Um I have some downtime soon.
+
+[37:33] Uh I was hoping to have another look at the miracle of moisture management in Comsol. This is the uh program. This is this is Nick Devlin, who uh who I'm working with. Yeah. Uh so we're like look for more uh comsole uh stuff uh coming in the future.
+
+[37:45] Um and by the way, his wife, uh Naomi, uh, writes uh cookbooks, including uh some gluten-free cookbooks, and worked with my man uh I know never met him, I don't know why I'm calling him my man. Hugh Fernsley Wedding Hall from the Villa uh the River Cottage. You ever know about these books? Yeah, you read any of these books? No.
+
+[38:00] Good books. Uh anyway, question. I'm thinking about our bar's autumn menu and wanted to include a sherry flip. A flip. Alright, so you're good that we have bar people here.
+
+[38:09] Because uh I know nothing about the modern flip. Anyway. Uh but I'm mulling over options as far as egg safety for those nervous customers. Uh the internet suggests a minimum of one hour 57 degrees up to two hours for sous-vide pasteurization, you know, low temperature, like in the show. Uh firstly, what are your thoughts on the time?
+
+[38:28] Secondly, what would the shelf life of a batch of eggs bee after after pasteurization? I've also read they can be harder to whip after you've pasteurized them, and that it might affect the texture of the uh flip, so I'll need to run some tests. Uh looking forward to getting the spins all later this summer and celebrating with the gin and juice at the bar. Um, of course, gin and juice is one of my favorite drinks. Okay.
+
+[38:47] Don, when we open the bar again, are we gonna have gin and juice again? Are you gonna make me have only old new cocktails? Yes. Which I gave you two options, and you said yes. And one of them's right.
+
+[38:58] Ah, you guys are the worst people in the world. So, first of all, define for those who aren't bar people a f a modern flip. Don't take me flip dog. Don't give me that. What give me flip?
+
+[39:06] Define flip. Whole egg, shake and drink. Okay. It's typical base. Give me a typical recipe.
+
+[39:11] Give me a typical space. I'm a big fan of the Ruby Port in a flip. The uh coffee cocktail, classic drink. Uh no coffee in it. Tastes like coffee.
+
+[39:19] Ruby port, whole egg. Check it out. So uh another classic drink that doesn't contain its own ingredient, the flaming Dr. Pepper. Lemon Heart, Amaretto.
+
+[39:29] Do you like that? I was never a Dr. Pepper fan. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't like Dr.
+
+[39:34] Pepper the soda? Listen. Korean upbringing. I didn't have soda until I got to college. I didn't ask you whether when you started having soda, I asked you you don't like Dr.
+
+[39:43] Pepper? Yeah. I could take it or leave it. Kevin? I didn't have tequila till college, and I love it now.
+
+[39:49] There you go. By the way, we could talk. Oh, by the way, not to go back because I know we already talked about the Bloody Mary. Why would you ever order a Bloody Mary? No offense.
+
+[39:58] Why would you ever order a Bloody Mary Mary with vodka when you could just have it with tequila instead? Or gin. Just throw it out there. My preference is mezcal. Or Dr.
+
+[40:08] Pepper if you're not going to be able to do it. So you do you call it a Marie or you just call it a Bloody Mary with Mescal in it? Actually, there's no name for a bloody bloody with Bloody Oahawkin. Don't they call it a Maria? Isn't that a Maria?
+
+[40:20] Bloody Maria. Yeah, it's tequila. So now you're gonna be so freaking anal on me. Like me like Mezcal, okay. Maybe it's a bloody Mario.
+
+[40:28] Mario. Don't get Mario. Don't give it. Please. Like, these people haven't been hanging out with us all week.
+
+[40:29] They don't know about the Mario brothers, Mario brothers. I think it's an important question that needs to be put out to the world. We're answering a question about egg safety. Okay. It is Mario Kart and Mario Brothers.
+
+[40:48] They're different. Has there ever been a Bloody Mary flip, by the way? Or a prairie or something? That is freaking disgusting. I'm throwing up in my mouth a little bit.
+
+[41:01] That's eggs in purgatory, right? If you scramble the egg beforehand and turn it into some sort of like omelet. Prairie to cocktail was predates the Bloody Mary. Please like that's a good one. Alright.
+
+[41:18] Question. Egg safety. Egg safety. So back to egg safety, Nick. The um one hour is sufficient at 57 degrees once it gets up to 57, but the fact of the matter is, um, salmonella is what you're shooting for.
+
+[41:31] It'll probably pasteurize earlier than that. Uh I usually do 57 degrees for about an hour. Two hours is not gonna hurt it, or you can drop it. Look, 57 degrees Celsius is like 135 Fahrenheit. And after about an hour, the egg white will be slightly thickened, but not a lot.
+
+[41:50] Two hours, it's gonna be a little bit more appreciably thickened. You'll still be killing salmonella if you drop it down to 56 after that first hour, and the inside will all already be hot, so you might want to do that. I've never actually run the test of 57 versus 56. I have uh sorry, 57 uh versus one hour versus 57 degrees for two hours. I have run with Kent Ogoto after he got falsely accused of uh of serving raw eggs without mentioning them on the menu at Pegu Club years ago of raw egg versus sous-deed pasteurized egg versus boxed pasteurized egg.
+
+[42:23] Box pasteurized eggs are a garbage product for garbage people made uh for garbage consumers, they should never be purchased, bought, or used. If you see someone purchasing, buy them or use them, you should uh provide an intervention. Uh you should throw them out and you should excoriate your supermarket for selling them. They're a bad product. But um pasteurized eggs that you make yourself are pretty good, but not quite as good as raw eggs, but it's not that big of a difference.
+
+[42:54] Um but they're they're totally safe and they keep they keep a long time. I mean, eggs, frankly, keep a long freaking time. So eggs that you pasteurize are certainly going to keep a long freaking time. Uh I would say that you are not affecting the keeping time, you're pasteurizing them, but you're also possibly washing off any waxes on the outside of the eggshell, so that's probably the point is moot. I would just say that you have not affected their keeping uh at all.
+
+[43:18] Just use it raw. Um, you know, some people are really freaky about it, and um I mean I agree with you, Don. Some people, here's an interesting test that someone can run for me that I didn't. You guys are all familiar with wet dog, right? So, and you take an egg white and you crack a fresh egg white into a drink and you shake it.
+
+[43:36] Um, after a couple of minutes, you may or may not get, although you often do, the aroma that I call wet dog. Uh, very similar to using transglutaminase, meat glue on something, you get this wet dog aroma. And uh, you know, famously um people put bitters on the top of their egg white drinks, and people do it because it's pretty. No, it's to cover up the stench of the egg white. Uh, and so one way around this is to crack your egg whites a good two to three hours before a shift, let them flash off in a core container, close them, put them uh you know, afterwards you can close them and no wet dog because you flashed off all of whatever the precursors to the wet dog are.
+
+[44:18] Um but what I've never done is tested whether or not wet dog happens after pasteurization. That'd be an interesting test, wouldn't it? Can you kind of cover it up too with like osmotic uh oils and things like that? If you put kind of like when you put eggs in rice with a truffle and it sort of absorbs that truffly flavor. And before you crack them?
+
+[44:39] Yeah. I've never heard of this. We talked about it. Tony Canigliero did it, uh, I can't remember the compound, but he was going for the fresh cut gas. He did it with hay, and he did like a smoked hay thing.
+
+[44:49] And you know, it's like uh a truffled egg, you know, when you put an egg in the thing and fix up the aroma of the truffle. I don't know. Um I will say not osmosis. Osmosis specifically the random movement of water across a semi-permeable membrane. So it's a semipermeal membrane.
+
+[45:05] But only water, the movement of water. Oh not the movement of anything else. Osmosis is specifically when water moves. So when is it like an aromatic compound? How does that infusion of some sort?
+
+[45:17] You know, it's picking up something. Yeah, but it's not osmosis. Okay. But all I can say for sure is I've never tested any of this, so I can't say. Where did uh Tony write about this stuff?
+
+[45:27] Uh in his book. The second one? I think the first one. First one? I heard him talk about it many years ago.
+
+[45:34] Yeah. Anyway, go look it up. But it's an interesting test. I would like to I would like to test uh and fortunately the person who asked the question, Nick lives in England, so can go ask. But the um it's an interesting question.
+
+[45:46] I don't know whether pasteurization is going to affect the wet dog uh aroma or not. All right. Let's go to the next question. Uh this is from Matt Zee. I recently got into kegging sparkling water, but right now it's just filtered tap water, which by the way is the best.
+
+[46:00] You know what? You know what? Like seltzer water should just be ripping purified water. Ripping, delicious purified water. I think uh well, let me finish the question.
+
+[46:14] Uh I'm wondering if you have dabbled into trying to mimic mineral water from specific sources or any additions to make it taste better. And if so, do you have a good jumping off point? Is it worth it? Any other way to top uh to uh up my fizzy water game, Matt Z. Okay, okay, okay.
+
+[46:31] Darcy O'Neill from um The Art of the Drink and from his uh well-known uh soda book from like six years ago call uh called Fix the Pumps, which is apparently a boob reference. Did you know that? Boob reference. So when a soda jerks were working, they'd say to each other, hey, he's got time to fix the pumps. You know, go uh check out the lady that just walked in.
+
+[46:52] But specifically a woman who's stacked. Correct. That's the which I don't really like those references. Scumbags. Scumbags, scumbag reference.
+
+[47:01] But uh anyway, Darcy used it and he uh he doesn't strike me as a scumbag. No, good man. Yeah. Uh Canadian. Canadian, yes.
+
+[47:07] But yes. Point being uh that Darcy uh is also in his uh real life work job, chemist, uh, and uh did a bunch of work on researching old articles for airzat's mineral waters. And a lot of the mineral waters have been classified as to their exact mineral composition. Uh and so he has a lot of recipes about recreating these mineral waters, and you can look them up. And uh Martin Larish from Chymos, who uh uh is the famous uh compiler of hydrocolloids recipes called textures or something, also has a comp uh compilation of all of these um water recipes.
+
+[47:51] Uh I have never had one work. I have bought a bunch of the stuff and tried to mimic, for instance, some waters that I enjoy. So, for those of you, some waters that you can purchase that I enjoy are Garolsteiner. I enjoy garol shiner because I like heavily if I'm I'm either gonna have seltzer with no minerals in it, or I'm gonna go freaking mineral on you. So I like Garolsteiner, I like Vish Catalan, which I think is delicious.
+
+[48:15] Um I like regular uh Vichy, I like Apollinaris, uh, these are all good waters, and I've tried to mimic some of these waters, and I have been, in a word, unsuccessful. Uh now, let me and Darcy uh points out quite rightly that you have to add things in certain orders, and the solubility is really hard, ba-boo, ba bee, ba-ba. But the way that real mineral waters are formed is deep in the earth in rock under high pressure over a long period of time, sprouting up like you know, under pressure, and then you get them like that, and then in fact, especially carbonated mineral waters, because why would you drink flat mineral water where we are not animals? Like what I can drink any sort of water that's flat. I can drink garbage.
+
+[49:04] The word for water that is derived from rainfall is meteoric. So any water that is primarily derived from recent rainfall is meteoric water, and if you're gonna drink meteoric water, then just drink tap water unless you live in Florida where the tap water is garbage, or if you live in Hong Kong where the tap water is garbage. Where else? Who else has terrible tap water? People?
+
+[49:28] Who has terrible tap water? Anyone? You're not gonna shout out your favorite horrible tap water? Los Angeles for a long time. Had bad tap water?
+
+[49:36] Terrible tap water. Southwest's gonna have some terrible tap. Yeah, Flint's definitely winning right now. Oh, but that I mean that's just you're being mean. Like they like poisoning.
+
+[49:45] You want to do some like uh fracking water you set on fire water or Cleveland, you mean fire water from the rivers? All long hands. All the uh all the the the old uh you know the the the salt uh oil uh deposits uh so you're saying I'm just spoiled, like I have nothing. Yeah, you are you are you're very spoiled. Um in general.
+
+[50:06] In general, water rich. We are water rich, like not only does New York have delicious tap water, but we can shower and poop in it and not have to worry about it running dry. You're not you're not a survivor of the uh you know the the great drought of California and the uh the 2010s. No, but I flew over that once and it was crazy looking. You know what I mean?
+
+[50:24] Like you fly over California during heavy drought time and you're like, this should not exist. My produce should not be this cheap. You know what I mean? It's like all honestly, all I can still think about is the uh the joke that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. Ah, uh strong.
+
+[50:40] You know, uh New York. That's one of those things that could also go. Yeah, but anyway, back to water. Uh very fortunate. Uh anyway, meteoric water is relatively soft, hasn't had time to pick up a lot of flavor.
+
+[50:55] If it has, it's from urine, poop, and effluent. So it's not possibly dinosaur urine. No, no, not if it's meteoric water. That's what I'm saying. If it's meteoric water, if it's recent water, it's like all of the pollution is recent pollution, like bacteria, nasty, nasty stuff.
+
+[51:11] And you don't want that. This is why you're gonna dig deep. Dig deep. That's right. So you want to get stuff, and this is why certain like marketing fools, like the Fiji people say that their water is X number of thousands of years old.
+
+[51:23] But if you really want badass water, you have to go millions of years old. And to go millions of years old, you gotta like tap some deep-seated stuff. And if you really want to do that, and you live in the New York uh area, you're gonna want to go to Saratoga Springs. Saratoga Springs has the most badass, non-meteoric, like millions of year old water that you can possibly find. And that stuff is salty and crazy and good in small quantities that don't make you rush off to the bathroom because frankly, highly mineralized water is like uh it's it's like uh Belmont steaks for your butt.
+
+[52:01] You know, bim, bit-di-b- bim, bit-di-bim, bim, bim, bing, bing. It's like it just boom, makes you want to go like nobody's business. It's like coffee on steroids. So if you made coffee with this stuff, which would taste horrible by the way, don't do it. So don't do it.
+
+[52:15] But if you have, I have had uh coffee with it. So I drank like the most hardcore of the Saratoga Springs waters, which is Hathorne 3, which is the most highly unmixed water, the most deep earth uh salt water. It's about a third of the salinity of salt of uh ocean water, and that stuff and a coffee is supposed to make you like have to run while you're set on spray to the bathroom to try to get there in time. And I have to report back, not to brag, but I am iron butt. I am iron butt.
+
+[52:50] I was not this is why you will be patient zero in the super poop, you know, poop exchange. That's correct. We can get we've discussed this before, we can get back to it at some point. Point being I will say that I had those waters when you brought them in. Interesting, right?
+
+[53:07] I can do like clarification of this. You had the uh the the search for deliciousness that we made with that instead of the salt, right? That's pretty weird. Uh I think if you did bottle it, use it like saline, it would uh be real nice. You it's got a little weird like uh radioactive thing going on in the back of the throat.
+
+[53:23] Some of them are radioactive from the Polaris, the Polaris spring specifically is radioactive. But the the issue is is that these are formed under very high pressure. So if you if you let those things go flat, all of a lot of the interesting minerals precipitate out. So you're part of the precipitate in this case, and you've the water has died. So it's very hard to take uncharged water not under pressure and recreate the same mix that you would get from the spring.
+
+[53:49] So the answer is uh I've not had a lot of success. This is a long way to say no. This is a very long explanation to say no. Right? And yeah, at the same time, New York is still like from your resources of the way that you're referencing water, Saratoga Springs being like the best of the best, right?
+
+[54:07] Like I mean globally. I mean, like I think like I think that Saratoga Springs, they don't bottle, so the stuff that you call Saratoga water is garbage, meteoric water. It's garbage. No offense to them and their blue bottles, but that is not the water of millionaires. That's not what people traveled hundreds of miles or thousands of miles to take the cure in.
+
+[54:27] That's just like water that was rained a couple of weeks ago. That is not the stuff. What about what about that deep Canadian stuff? I have a years long dream, Don. And that years long dream is to go to the Timmins zinc mine in Ontario, Canada, to go two kilometers deep into a hole in the ground and find the spring, which I happen to know.
+
+[54:53] I'm told that the water that springs out of it is extremely valuable and can't be wasted. But I also know that the scientists don't capture all of it and that it leaks out at a rate of approximately two liters a minute. And that this water has not gone through the water cycle in approximately 2.4 billion years, and that it's incredibly salty, and that this guy wants to use it in a cocktail, and some freaking Canadian scientists won't let me have it, even though I've emailed her several times saying that I am in fact not a crank, and I'm a real person with real credentials who would like some of her water. Modern-day Ponce Leon, you are the fountain of old, baby. Okay, we have a question from Dan.
+
+[55:43] For a couple I think I've answered this. I've answered this. So did I talk recently because they don't remember about BPE and rubber made containers? Rob I made. You did.
+
+[55:52] Alright. Dan, if I've not answered your rubber made BPA questions, text us back. We got a question from Victoria, British Columbia in Canada. And let's see what we got here. Uh hey, Dave, the hammer, and other Dave who's not here right now.
+
+[56:07] Question from Canada. I know you love us, even though you like to give us plenty of grief. Hey, your brother, you're our brothers and sisters from up north. So, you know, why wouldn't I? Why would we not give you grief?
+
+[56:17] Do you like to give Canada grief? That's how you know we love you. So, yeah, so how do you know that I don't like you? You never talk about them. Don't think about them.
+
+[56:26] Yeah, right. Motionless robot, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If I say anything about you at all, it that's like, you know. He cares enough to hate you.
+
+[56:35] Yeah, yeah. No, I don't hate Canada. Canada, you know what? You know when I hated Canada? Remember that like period of a couple of years?
+
+[56:42] Remember, here's what I'll never forget this. So, like, you know, American money always kicks Canada's money's butt, right? Like, this is not like this is just our money is historically, in my life, worth more than the Canadian dollar. So, like, my wife and I could go to Niagara Falls, enjoy the better Canadian side of the falls. We have the garbage falls.
+
+[57:06] The U.S. has the crappier part of the Niagara Falls situation. But you can go over there, and even though you don't have a lot of money, the American dollar is so strong, you're like, woo! You know, yeah, yeah. As many donuts as you want, honey.
+
+[57:22] Do it. You know what I mean? So, point being that remember a couple years ago when the Canadian dollar reached parody with the American? Oh, yeah. It was beating us for a while.
+
+[57:30] Yeah. And I was like, this is what we get. This is our punishment. But we're back now. Question.
+
+[57:38] Yes. Oh, Canada. Love it. I love listening to your show. I've been a semi frequent reader of your blog, and I've been uh happy to have your shows to listen to while I make a small batches of ice cream over here on the west coast of British Columbia.
+
+[57:50] Keep up the good work. Uh you have a love affair for Crosby's molasses. I do. Crosby's molasses is delicious. Any of you guys, northern people?
+
+[57:58] Northern people? Northern Card. What? Like freaking Maine North. Well.
+
+[58:04] Like Nanuk of the North? Main. Midwestern North. Like I'm North Middle East. In Madison, Wisconsin, where you are from, do they have Crosby's molasses on their cheese curds or not?
+
+[58:17] No. Nor on their browst. Good sir. Brats. Do you eat pasties or pasties or whatever you call them?
+
+[58:26] No. That's only a Minnesota thing? That's Minnesota. Oh, too good for you. You don't like you don't like a meat pie all of a sudden?
+
+[58:34] You can send away the flowerest. Alright. Alright. Okay. Question.
+
+[58:39] Crosby's molasses. What gives? You live in the U.S., so why not get sorghum syrup? I will gladly mail you as much Crosby's as you want in trade for any good sorghum syrup. I've never had good sorghum syrup.
+
+[58:51] I don't think it exists. But it could exist. It's a traditional like a Philly cheesesteak. Oh, Don Lee does not believe that he has ever had a good Philly cheese steak. I know I've never had a good one, but there might be a good one out there, much like sorghum steak.
+
+[59:06] Don't be freaking absurd. And by the way, like I don't understand why Philadelphia gets to own the freaking cheesesteak. Cheesesteak is an inherently delicious concept and also very well executed on it on many situations. What could you possibly not like about sauteed shaved steak with melted cheese and sauteed onions on a roll, Don? Well, if you took those rolls and dipped them in jus, you'd have a great French dip, a la Philippe's Los Angeles style.
+
+[59:37] No, but French dip doesn't have cheese and onions. It doesn't need it because it's delicious with meat and the juice. That's a different sandwich. Thank you, Kevin. Fully different sandwich.
+
+[59:44] The drippy like juice sandwiches. That's that's like a that's a knife and pork thing, or it's like a multi-napkin thing. Whereas the Philly cheesesteak is great in that you have goopy singles or cheese whiz as processed cheese no matter what. As an adult, I like Gruyra on cheese. Unphilly cheesesteak kind of BS.
+
+[1:00:11] I'm not an atheist. I don't, it's not like I said there is no good Philly cheesesteak. I just haven't met the good Philly cheesesteak yet. So I'm I'm open to it. But I think it's like a it's like a thing, and you know, the the good version of it is going to be different than the original thing.
+
+[1:00:26] Not saying the original is the best interpretation of it, but like if you're calling something by its name a Philly cheesesteak, is like I just call them cheesesteaks. Kind of an overcooked. I don't add the Philly because I'm not from Philadelphia. I feel like I can make a decent cheesesteak. What's your thought on the chopped cheese?
+
+[1:00:44] What do you mean chopped cheese? Chopped cheese. What tells chopped cheese? You never had like the uptown like bronze chopped cheese? Like a bodega?
+
+[1:00:51] Uptown. Oh man. Oh wow. The cheese and the we gotta take you uptown, dude. It's like put that.
+
+[1:00:59] I guess we got the next episode sort of out. What? Next episode of Cooking and Chees coming to you live from a bodega. A Philly cheesesteak, but it's chopped cheese. Uh Harlem?
+
+[1:01:10] Is it Harlem dish? Yeah. Yeah. It's called chopped cheese? Chopped cheese.
+
+[1:01:15] You walk in and you say, chopped cheese, please. Yeah, but it's wearing Harvard. Only if you want to rhyme. Oh, but you chopped cheese is the actual dish it's called. Yes.
+
+[1:01:25] And it's a cheesesteak that they hack the cheese into the meat. Yeah, it's not a steak, it's uh it's like ground beef, kind of like a like a hamburger patty chopped up. What about you guys? Anyone had this? Who's had this?
+
+[1:01:34] You've had this, you've had this? Never. Okay. This is a very trendy thing to have right now. Regional thing.
+
+[1:01:40] Well, this is because well, notice I am not a trendy fellow. Judging by your outfit, I don't believe you. So listeners, if you could only see this outfit. Salmon shirt. I have a very petchin salmon shirt.
+
+[1:01:57] Anyway, uh, point being, sorghum syrup. I've not had I've not had this chopped cheese. I will try this chopped cheese. Um, what kind of roll is the chopped cheese on? It's like on the hero.
+
+[1:02:08] Yeah, it is a hero. Well, please, please. This could mean anything. Are we talking like a thin thing, like you might have a Cuban sandwich on? Are we talking like a meatball?
+
+[1:02:16] Sorghum syrup. Sorghum syrup. Now you have me on the chopped cheese. I've never I told you I haven't had a decent sorghum syrup. If I had a decent sorghum syrup, I would call Surly Dave right now and be like, here is my decent sorghum syrup.
+
+[1:02:27] Send me as much Crosby's molasses as you can. But I've not. Have any of you guys had a decent sorghum syrup? Never. Is it a traditional sweetening agent?
+
+[1:02:34] And so it would be good to get. Do you guys know about the molasses flood? Oh, of course. 1919, right before Prohibition. So my great aunt Annette was alive during that time and remembers it.
+
+[1:02:46] She used to work at the Shraff's factory in Boston and was like, it still smelled like molasses in the summertime. She didn't talk like that. She was from Boston. And she was the last surviving of the three maiden aunts on my stepfather's side. And vividly, vividly remembered that because uh she was born in 1909, so she was like 10 years old when that happened.
+
+[1:03:14] So that was a legit thing. And she imagine this little old lady in this factory stuffing candies into shraffs uh little uh cups. And the in that doesn't, you know what? It's kind of sad. Recently, the last of that whole generation in my family and my stepfather's family died.
+
+[1:03:31] So I have no more connection other than my crazy stories to that whole kind of uh generation. But yeah, the molasses flood was uh amazing. I think it was, if my memory serves me, it was like it got hotter than normal on that day. They'd overfilled the molasses bin, it was a like cheap rate molasses that had a little bit too much water, fermentation started, the uh container was also built poorly, and kaboom. And imagine like, how did your uncle die, Jimmy?
+
+[1:04:00] He drowned in molasses. You're like, what? He couldn't outrun the molasses in January? He was kind of slow. I'd like to drop it now.
+
+[1:04:11] You know what I mean? Because, like, how do you tell people that your family members were killed by a wave of molasses? Horses were killed by it. A lot of people killed. And interestingly, they had overfilled the molasses because people, it was just prior to prohibition.
+
+[1:04:28] Now, it might be a little bit of a canard in that story because the people that owned that molasses tank were one of the few people that were actually licensed to produce uh alcohol for industrial use. And so they could have continued to produce molasses. But well-known fact by everyone in this kind of uh alcohol room here is that uh Prohibition killed Medford rum, which no longer exists, which was drunk by Paul Revere on his ride, and is still commemorated to this day in Medford, Massachusetts by a dram of rum at a particular doorstop. Wayne Curtis told me that, even though like I grew up going to Medford, I had no idea. Wayne Curtis, the rum uh historian taught me that.
+
+[1:05:07] Uh, and also Monongahila rum here was pretty much destroyed by prohibition. True story. Uh Rye. I meant rye. When I said rum, I meant rye.
+
+[1:05:15] Uh, but a lot of uh good things were destroyed by prohibition. But you know, without it, all the pre-prohibition people wouldn't have a job, would they? Would Sasha have become so famous if there hadn't been a prohibition and a crappy uh interim interregnum years where we had garbage cocktails? Would he have been so well known? I never thought you'd be such an optimist, but you managed to find the bright side to prohibition.
+
+[1:05:35] So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good gangster movies. There's another. True.
+
+[1:05:40] No boardwalk empire without prohibition. Yeah. Yeah. You like that, right? You're a Steve Busemi fan, aren't you?
+
+[1:05:45] I look just like him. What? I serve to drink the Steve Buseman. It's just a thing that no one ever wants to say. I served a drink to Stevie Semi once.
+
+[1:05:54] Good guy. Okay. Second question. As stated, I make ice cream for a living. Recently I've been getting many requests for tiger tiger or tiger tail ice cream, which I understand it is a very Canadian flavor.
+
+[1:06:05] Is this true? Well, it sure is crap in an American flavor, I'll tell you that. No one's heard of Tiger Tail. We had to look it up on the internet. Um do you not get tiger tail in New York City?
+
+[1:06:15] We do not. The weed that is made do not. No. We don't even get moose tracks. We get moose tracks.
+
+[1:06:20] All you have to do is go to Connecticut. Again, New York City. Have you ever walked into a bodega and gotten moose tracks? I don't walk into bodegas at all. Well, la dita.
+
+[1:06:32] La. Oh, yeah. You've been proving time and time again on this talk that you are the one percent. I should get I shop, I shop at a fine fair. I shop at a fine fair, which is like right equal to a key foods in a sea town.
+
+[1:06:48] Right? Don't give me this crap. I don't have the m I don't have the money to pay the middleman bodega. I don't I can't I can't afford the convenience of shopping right downstairs from where I live, people. Anyway, uh Tiger Tail, Kevin, why don't you tell us what Tiger Tail is?
+
+[1:07:05] Uh it's an orange flavored ice cream uh with a black licorice swirl. Uh and it looks really wild. It's pretty psychedelic. It's popular in Canada, but seldom found elsewhere. Uh created by Morgan Carr, according to Wikipedia.
+
+[1:07:20] Um black licorice is this thing. Yes, uh quick bet. How likely is it that the person who sent this question created a fake Wikipedia page about the tiger tail? No, come on. 60% It's a non-zero number, right?
+
+[1:07:36] It is a non-zero number. Everything's a non-zero number. Uh well, no, that's not true. Every probability is a non-zero number. Greater mostly.
+
+[1:07:46] Mostly. Um, surly Dave, uh, none of us, and while I myself live in a box, uh, Don and Brian and Kevin get out a lot. So I'm assuming that this doesn't exist in New York, but here's what I'm gonna say. Americans hate licorice. Let me repeat this.
+
+[1:08:05] Americans hate licorice. Uh, and so I don't think it's ever gonna become popular here, but I would like to try it. I really like creamsicles. Orange and vanilla is like a few. Yeah, orange and licorice is kind of just like stomping that in the dirt.
+
+[1:08:20] Do you not like lick licorice? Wait, wait, hold on. Yeah, you got a flack from uh the last issue that uh you are a not uh a discerning ice cream eater because you did not call for a specific brand of ice cream. And uh I'd like to come in your defense, Kevin. That uh unless you're buying ice cream for yourself, when have you ever been offered an option of two different brands of ice cream in a like retail establishment ever?
+
+[1:08:46] I think it's a it's a not full non-starter. And also I would love to throw in the Kevin Denton eats those crappy unified brand ice cream sandwiches that weigh like you know a half a gram per liter. They're gonna be a few. I've taken to making my own ice cream recently, and I think that's the only way to go. What?
+
+[1:09:07] That's not true. Most home ice cream machines are garbage. So I'm gonna do a pitch for Breville and have them, you know, be your next sponsor because their home ice cream machine is pretty dope. Let me ask you a question, Kevin. The ice cream out of your machine, I'm sure it's good the minute it's made, but what about the next day?
+
+[1:09:26] Um it's better because then it hardens and crystallizes in a way that I think is superior than store but you lost me at crystals. You lost me on crystals. You lost me with crystals. It's creamy and delicious. We will okay.
+
+[1:09:39] I'll tell you what. Here's another question I have for you. This is the other answer. Because I'm a real uh I'm a real butt head when it comes to this. How many minutes, what's your batch time in minutes?
+
+[1:09:54] I don't know. Roughly 60. No, dude! Ice cream needs to be frozen in freaking 10 minutes or less. Or your crystal size is too large.
+
+[1:10:10] Says the man that usually has liquid nitrogen all the time. Alright, maybe 15 minutes. 60 minutes? That's the hey, listen. I didn't purport to be a few.
+
+[1:10:21] Kevin, Kevin. You know, we're friends. So what I want to do is I would like you to force me. I am an honest fellow, and I will have, I would like you to make ice cream and store it for a day. I will come over to your house all the way over in Brooklyn, and I will taste it, and I will see whether or not your stored overnight ice cream is actually as good as someone who spent millions of dollars on an instantaneous uh freezer that can freeze stuff instantaneously and has spent, I don't know, their whole life working on producing like awesome texture that is something.
+
+[1:11:02] You know, some of us can't afford that nice million dollar ice cream that you have. One percent. Kevin, Kevin Denton. Kevin Denton works for one of the largest liquor companies on planet of the earth and can get liquid nitrogen delivered to his office any damn day of the week. And can make ice cream as quickly and efficiently as anyone else.
+
+[1:11:23] So I don't want to hear it. You know, sometimes things are done best inefficiently. That's why I like a nice slow burn on mine. Listen, listen, listen. All I'm saying is is whenever whenever anyone says ice cream, I don't get to taste it, you ask a couple of facts.
+
+[1:11:38] One, what is the freeze time? That's the easiest thing to see. How long do you take to freeze? Because everybody knows the faster you freeze it, the smaller the ice crystals, and the smaller the ice crystals, Don. The smoother the ice cream.
+
+[1:11:51] Boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. Hey Dave Nastasia et al. This is from Connor in Chicago. You've referenced on the show a few times that you used to roast, I still roast my own coffee.
+
+[1:11:59] That you used to roast your own coffee using a whirly pop. I like the whirly pop. Yeah. Whirly pop? Yeah.
+
+[1:12:06] Whirly pop. I'd like to try it myself, but my popcorn loving girlfriend has some concern that if I use uh our whirly pop, it will be forever tainted with coffee flavor. Is this the case, or will it be okay to use for both purposes so long as we give it a good scrub? Any other roasting tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Connor in Chicago.
+
+[1:12:25] Connor, you have a smart girlfriend. That coffee will ruin your whirly pop for uh popcorn. It will turn your popcorn into garbage coffee oil popcorn, and you will not want to eat that. Uh guess what a whirly pop is? Not that expensive.
+
+[1:12:41] If you're gonna roast your own coffee, two batches of uh green coffee into roasted coffee in a whirly pop, and you've paid for the whirly pop. The problem with the whirly pop is that once you start you I know what a whirly pop is, right, Brian? Right, Kevin, you know what a whirly pop is? You guys know whirly pop, whirly pop. Once you start cranking that whirly pop, you cannot stop.
+
+[1:13:02] And like I am a well-known non-human, and so like I can sit there and just crank the whirly pop until it's done because I don't care whether I have physical discomfort or whether I need to pee, or whether the house is burning down, or whether the dog is peeing or barking, or whether my kids are shouting at me because right now what I'm doing is making coffee. Many people are not like this. And so what happens is they stop cranking it and walk away and then it burns. This is the problem. So I have a 3D uh model somewhere on my Insta Twitter where you can download something that you can convert a whirly pop into a motorized thing for fairly cheap.
+
+[1:13:45] Uh and it's pretty good. But um the whirly pop is good, just you gotta keep cranking. Uh I've since moved on. I built a drum roaster that's actually not quite as good as the whirly pop because I uh it's too complicated to get into, but I still roast it on my own. And as a first step into it, uh whirly pop is great.
+
+[1:14:04] Uh some people prefer the flavor of air pop uh air po air popcorn popper coffee roasting. So there's basically in the home coffee roasting world, there are two fundamental kinds of people, and they're the people who like drum roast kind of coffee, and those people typically are whirly pop, or if they have money, harvest uh, you know, the the mini drum roasters, and if I had a lot of money, I'd buy a Habes Burns uh or Jabez, I don't know how you pronounced it back when he was alive, uh sample roaster, and then there's the air pop people who are based on kind of the uh civets model of roaster. Um I used to air roast, I know Harold McGee likes an air roaster, but I kind of have a drum guy. What do you guys like? Do you guys even think about this?
+
+[1:14:47] What are you? Drum people or drum, Kevin, or you have a feeling on this. Do you like air roasted? Do you like, are you more of an espresso person or more of a uh of a drippy drip pour over drip drip drippy drip drip? Um, you know, I I think I'm more of a working man on the coffee.
+
+[1:15:05] I like drip coffee. What does that mean, working man? You know, just turning it into a classic. Because I roast stuff in a popcorn machine. Because you have an espresso maker.
+
+[1:15:18] That I bought on eBay was shattered and had to put together, like disassemble completely, like boil in water on the stove that I found on the street and then reassemble. That kind of rich. Anyways. This is what I'm trying to say. America, we have to get past this idea that because I like a particular kind of food that it's a class issue.
+
+[1:15:40] Just because I like to drink espresso doesn't mean that I hold my pinky out while I drink it. Although he does. That's also true. Dave Titan. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[1:15:54] Let me see. Got some more questions. One more question. Can we do one more question? We're going long horn really.
+
+[1:16:00] Let's see what we got. Let's see what we got. This is from Sean, Sean Andrews. Last week, depending on when you read this, you took a question about a low temperature proxy for dry aging. I've not been able to stop thinking about dry aging since.
+
+[1:16:13] So this was someone who did um like a like a warm hold on low temperature for meats to try to kickstart the enzymes uh in meats to tenderize it uh you know relatively quickly. Um the issue of trim loss from formation of the bad kind of crust during dry acing process seems ripe for analysis slash optimization from someone who understands the miracle of moisture management. Listen, I've never said I understand the miracle of moisture management. I mean, I kind of I think I understand it more than most people, but I think that all of cooking is fundamentally uh all of cooking fundamentally boils down to two things. One, getting the temperature right, and two, the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[1:16:53] Uh because almost everything, crusts, like tater tots, French fries, uh I mean, name a food, name a food. Uh jelly beans. Moisture problem. Moisture management. It's sugar is hydrophilic.
+
+[1:17:13] Right. We'll have to pull the moisture out of the air. So it is in fact actually a moisture problem. All candies are. And how do you think you get that skin on it?
+
+[1:17:21] It's Easter Sunday. That's how you get it. Cornstarch. Yeah, moisture management, baby. That's like prime moisture management.
+
+[1:17:27] Name another food. Boom. Chicken wings. Chicken wings, obvious moisture management problem. Come on, man.
+
+[1:17:34] It's more moisture management. I was trying to give you a softball after jelly beans. Beef jerky. You're drawing it out! Well, you're making my point, but giving jerky.
+
+[1:17:47] Everything. Beans and jerky. There is a jerky brand in Denver, and I'm not making this up. It was in the airport. Climax jerky.
+
+[1:17:56] So when you're getting on the airplane, you can buy yourself a package of climax jerky if you so choose. Okay. Never want to finish. So uh no, I gotta finish the question. Uh Miracle of Moisture Management.
+
+[1:18:18] Side note, please uh write a book on the topic of moisture management and use this title. I'll start a petition if necessary. Listen, uh Sean, nobody else but you and I believe that the miracle of moisture management, Don also believes that the miracle of moisture management is a good title for a book, but we're believe it or not, in the minority. I think uh moisture intelligence. It's the second book in the intelligence series.
+
+[1:18:40] The art and science of moisture management. Um I've read Kenji's posts on dry aging, which are pretty good, and I've looked into the literature on the subject, including dry aging of beef in a bag, uh highly permeable to water vapor, and you know, you give the DOI number, which is nice. Uh, but I'm left with the sense that more kind of should be done. Since my wife birth my wife's birthday present uh to me this year is allowing me to create my own dry aging setup, which will include a fridge, internal fan, UV source. The UV source is interesting, actually.
+
+[1:19:09] So UV radiation uh on meat will prevent bacteria from growing. But what I hasn't I don't think has been studied on long-term dry aging with UV is the possible rancidity caused by the UV light. Because uh fats are clearly gonna go ran quicker on your UV light than not. So it's an interesting question. And various wireless sensors.
+
+[1:19:30] I'd appreciate any thoughts you may have on the subject, including safety optimization and whether or not you personally think it's worth it. Note, I'm probably gonna do it no matter what you think. Awesome, which isn't my favorite kind of person. Uh love the show. Good luck with the spins all and thanks for your time.
+
+[1:19:43] So, Sean, I don't really know the answer uh to your question. I'm gonna actually put it out to the readers who've done more, uh listeners rather, who have done more work with uh dry aging. Uh but I'm gonna give it um kind of uh more thoughts. Somebody else had a question. Uh Josh had a question, which Don is telling me I'm not gonna have time to get to.
+
+[1:20:01] Uh, but it's about whether or not you can do the old dulce de leche trick uh with honey. No, you cannot. Um so dulce de leche, uh I typically make it because I'm a cheater. Uh I don't make it the grandma way, which is over an open pot stirring for a long time while it concentrates my reaction. I do it by taking sweet and condensed milk and putting it into a pressure cooker, which is the way 99.9% of people who aren't like good normal people do.
+
+[1:20:29] Uh and uh the question is, can you do that with honey? Will that happen? Answer, no. Uh, you need a lot of, you need the milk proteins. A bunch of it.
+
+[1:20:37] There is protein and honey, but not enough to have the kind of dulce to lecture thing happen. You might have some difference happen, but you're not gonna get dulcetal lecchets. But try it, let me know. Uh, I have more questions, which I'm not going to get to because Don tells me that I'm out of time. And next week, back live in New York from Bushwick, Brooklyn with more cooking issues.
+
+[1:20:55] Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:21:25] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:21:50] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:06] Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We are a member supported nonprofit food radio station. That means that every single thing we do, from broadcasting 35 weekly shows for free, to bringing you exclusive content from sold-out food events across the country to offering scholarships to high school students is only possible thanks to the support of our loyal members. And we want you to join the club. Become a member during our 2017 summer drive to get access to sweet swag and pledge your support to the world's only food radio station.
+
+[0:40] Visit Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate to become a member now. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live from the Burns Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Oh yeah! We're back.
+
+[1:11] Hey guys. How are you doing? It called in your questions too. 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:25] God, as usual in the studio, Nastasio the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. You mean you missed me the past two weeks? No.
+
+[1:32] No. No. We got uh Dave in the booth. How are you doing? Good, I missed you.
+
+[1:39] Oh see. You know why he missed me? Because I took the zoom with me, the zoom microphone. Oh, yeah. And and he needed it back.
+
+[1:46] I'm like, I'm working over here, I'm working. I'm in Pittsburgh. No, I knew you had one. That was just a call for all the other ones that I forget where they went to. Where are people storing these things?
+
+[1:57] That's a good question. I don't want to think about it. Uh and we have a sp we got a question in on uh pasta machines, and for that reason, my favorite uh fiddler of pasta machines, uh Alex Talbot from uh Ideas and Food, uh, you know, famously uh Alex Naki Ideas and Food is on the line. How you doing, Alex? Good, Dave, how are you?
+
+[2:22] Doing well, doing well. So I have him in on the line. So I don't know whether he's gonna stick around past this initial question, but you know, if he does, you might want to call in your questions, you know. You know, you don't always get to ask Alex questions uh live on the radio. But Alex, let me give you the question.
+
+[2:36] Um so for those of you that don't know, uh the ideas and food, uh, you two have been working with the uh how do you pronounce that anyway? Arcabolino or Arcaboleno, how do you pronounce that thing? Arco Boleno. Arcaboleno. Yeah, sure.
+
+[2:50] So I think you know, you guys were maybe the first people that I was aware of that were normal humans, you know, uh well, not normal humans, obviously, you know, you like a well-known like food people, but I mean in other words, not like a a a restaurant or production facility that started using this um kind of sm smaller format pasta extruder, and it's it's awesome, right? You love it? It's phenomenal. I mean, they've got uh a number of of levels of pasta extruders. Uh you know, they uh they uh it is it is the machine I think that changed what is possible for restaurants and restaurant kids.
+
+[3:27] Right. You know, so what's the throughput? What's a throughput on a thing? Again, you you know, the more people that start working with it and and and tinkering and exploring what's possible with pasta, it it it it has more people saying, okay, what if we did this and what if we did that? And then the the demand for creativity and I think the demand for uh better grains and the demand for uh really exploring uh the entire landscape of noodles uh and pushing the boundaries of of possibilities and the search for really the most amazing uh pasta you can put together is is is growing and developing.
+
+[4:06] All right, so let's just get some stuff out of the way so people know what we're talking about here. Your machine like costs roughly how much? So the tabletop, the AX 18, uh costs about $5,000. So yeah, that's a lot. Go ahead.
+
+[4:25] Look, you put it on the same scale as a Paco jet. And a Paco jet is for ice cream and a few other things, and I think they're phenomenal. But I think with a pasta machine, you are actually printing money. Well for a restaurant. You will have your return on your investment in less than six months.
+
+[4:43] Oh no, no, no. For a restaurant, a hundred percent. Uh, like uh I think the person who wrote in the question, I think is just an avid person at home who really wants one. So that I mean that that's the market that's really you know not really being uh addressed because there's like it's a lot for someone at home. So that said, they've actually retooled and and created a uh a pasta machine for that market.
+
+[5:07] Still, still it's expensive, but it's it's it you can you can do 500 grams, 500 grams of uh dry matter. Okay. Uh it's the it's the AEX five. Uh and that that that comes in into the lovely price tag of what, like two thousand dollars. And what is that?
+
+[5:23] Like seven seven hundred and fifty grams of pasta or so? Uh you're gonna end up with uh six hundred fifty grams a batch. So you know, five hundred grams of flour and the hydration at roughly thirty percent, hundred and fifty grams of that. So you can you're kicking out six hundred and fifty grams of pasta at a shot out of the AEX five. Which by the way, is enough for a house.
+
+[5:40] That's it, totally enough for a house. In fact, I've got some friends that have small restaurants and are using pasta as as as just a uh an accompaniment. They've actually gotten a five they can make you know, twelve, fifteen orders a night of beautiful pasta. So it it it's small, but it is a workhorse. It makes unbelievable noodles.
+
+[6:02] Now let's let's just get some of the stuff out of the way. All of the inexpensive pasta machine extruders rather on the market, like that attached to stand mixers uh or that were made in the seventies, these are all garbage. They they don't work well. Look, they'll make a noodle. We we understand that.
+
+[6:23] But part of it is is like I used to have a Delongi years ago, like two thousand and what, three, two thousand no, it's two thousand four, two thousand five when we were out at Kia Grande, I found one of the Delongis on eBay and bought one and made noodles. Uh mind you, I was I was working on both uh flour based and also exotic noodles, and it worked, but it wasn't something that made like made it it didn't produce. So you're sitting there just dicking around waiting for things to to happen. Right. I mean it's hilarious actually looking at them how slowly the pasta comes out.
+
+[6:57] It's like f it's like a joke. It's like a bad joke. Yeah, I mean it it's it's painful. I mean it's it's look you sure you can do it like I I I used the Kitchen Aid attachment because I thought that was gonna be my solution. Nightmare.
+
+[7:10] Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. I mean I I guess it it's you know, you're not gonna use a Yugo to race, you know, in a car race.
+
+[7:14] That was my mistake the last time I tried to race car stars was I got the Yugo for 400 bucks and I thought I could win the race with it, and you just can't. Can't win the race with a Yugo. Um here's the thing though, right? So uh there's a couple of reasons that those uh those things don't work, right? One, they're just not powerful enough, right?
+
+[7:39] And so you have to use a relative, even to get the slow rate out of it, you need to use a relatively high hydration dough, so your noodles are never going to be as good, right? Right. I mean, so you've you you've got you're increasing the hydration and you're not you're not as dry, you're not as as as as as as compact and put together. You know, again, noodles want to be the least amount of of moisture possible. That's and and so when you're extruding it and you you can really cut down the hydration, your noodles don't stick together.
+
+[8:05] People are always amazed, you know, because when you when you make uh an extruded dough, it looks like strusel in the in the hopper when you're mixing it. Right. And it gets compressed in there and and you know, there's there's a ton of pressure. Right create you know, turns it into a noodle proper. And the problem with the high hydration along with the low force of the kind of crappy extruders, is that e even if you could dry it out properly, the surface just isn't very good of those things, correct?
+
+[8:35] Uh a lot of it you're not seeing the same surface, but you're not seeing I mean it's really hard to extrude a wet dough. It doesn't want it doesn't I mean it's it's like it's like trying to push uh you know jello through a screen. I guess jelly through a screen actually works. Yeah. Uh I guess it'll be more like, you know, the uh silly putty through a s a screen.
+
+[8:54] Ooh, that's ugly. I don't want to clean the screen after I push a silly putty through it. Um now, so for those of you that don't know how these machines work, you should check out the uh videos. But basically it does the mixing for you and then after you do the mixing you start extruding. So it's like a all in one kind of a a machine, right?
+
+[9:13] It is. Yep. Okay. Oh hey, by the way, have you ever used uh I was considering buying one, but they're like 300 bucks and I'm on a complete spending freeze until uh we start shipping the uh spinzalls as you know when when that works but the uh have you ever used one of those like uh bigly presses that you like actually like like screw down to a bench and then you use what looks like a wine press to extrude those things. You ever use one of those?
+
+[9:38] Yeah I mean that look the they they have the the the beautiful uh allure of yesteryear uh I I am sure you would figure a way to retrofit it with some sort of drive train so that you weren't sitting there being the the guy sitting there twisting it. Right. I mean it it it produces a noodle but you are you are the you are the force. That's not what Nastasia says. But the uh yeah the the uh I think I mean that's the kind of thing you kinda want to do a couple of times but you don't want to do every uh you're not gonna you're not gonna be like hey let me make uh bigly tonight right no I mean I mean so I mean to to go back to it I mean like I will rip out the the the the pasta machine with you know a half an hour before dinner and make pasta.
+
+[10:24] Right. Now what is the deal with the machine with the extrud with the extrusion it's not the same as with uh as with the regular uh, you know, sheeted pasta dough, right, in terms of rest times. That that stuff just doesn't apply in one of these machines, right? It's not. Again, and and really I I think there's a lot of uh misinformation, even about with uh, you know, sheeted pasta and and rest time.
+
+[10:47] You know, a lot of what's happening is is we're we're paying attention to hydration. So, you know, with the extruder, you're you're looking at it and you want the the moisture to be absorbed by the semolina or the Durham or whatever grains you're working with. Uh again with with sheeted pasta, that I mean that's why I I say, you know, if if you got a vacuum sealer, you vacuum seal your dough and you can roll it right away. Because you're expediting the hydration. It's it's not it's not like the glue has to completely relax.
+
+[11:12] It's it's not. It's the the power has to properly hydrate. And that's why you go from that opaque to that nice rich dark color that you get by the vacuum sealing of the dial. Right. I always, when I want to do things kind of quickly at home, I always cheat into a higher hydration and then just and then just flour the hell out of it the first couple of times passes through the uh through the sheeter until it stops being tacky.
+
+[11:35] And I know that that's probably not the best way to do it, but it is the fast way to do it at home. You know what I mean? Exactly. I mean, then that you're you're cheating the system. But that dough, you better be cooking it right away, as opposed to I'm gonna roll it out and put it in the fridge.
+
+[11:48] Because you're rolling out and put it in the fridge and it's gonna it's gonna keep hydrating and you're gonna have a big dough mass. Yeah, no, no, no. That's uh it's a it's a right-away cook and you gotta keep everything really separate because it wants to stick together, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I mean, talk about pasta is like like like one of the like moisture, like moisture management, the miracle of moisture management problems that there is.
+
+[12:10] But anyway, so this is all about the machine. And so uh the reason I'm prefacing all this to the question that this uh that uh poor poor guy from Montana wrote in, is that the a miracle of these machines is uh not just the extrusion, but that they also facilitate the proper mixing of the dough and that to make the dough in a separate machine and then feed it into an extruder might be more difficult if you had let's say a kitchen aid as your primary mixer do you find do you think that's true or or do you think that's false I I think it is it's actually you can actually do it and uh I know uh a number of chefs uh drawn craft out of pastorilla he's got some larger arcobolenos and he's you know he makes what 200 pounds of pasta a day in his restaurant so he he uses a larger Hobart and and and dry mixes his dough and then just drops it into the hopper so he he's always he's staying one step ahead and and can do it so on a smaller scale yeah you can do it you can you can mix your your your your your dough in a kitchen aid and then kick it into something else and extrude it. And again he's doing that so he he he has so much production that it makes sense for him to just go from one to the other. Right. And he's he's just constantly feeding it.
+
+[13:25] Oh because he doesn't want to waste the time to have it mixed instead of just being extruding 100% of the time. Exactly so he's got his extruder literally extruding all the time and he's just adding more dough to it as as as it continues to run out. So he can go nonstop. Right. Now you know uh you know Johnny Hunter out of Madison Wisconsin right chef?
+
+[13:46] Was that you know Johnny Hunter out of Madison Wisconsin the chef in uh from underground meats in uh Madison I lost that bit a little bit I'm sorry I did you're a bit static on my end oh yeah Johnny Johnny Hunter the uh the chef from underground meats, friend of the show out in Madison, Wisconsin. He uses this is more preface to this question. See, I'm a big believer in pre like multiple prefaces to every question. He uses his uh large Hobart meat grinder as a masa grinder, which I've never tried, but I know a couple other people that have done it. They basically what I'm prefacing here is that the actual real Hobart meat grinder is strong enough to extrude masa dough, probably and grind probably strong enough to extrude pasta dough, right?
+
+[14:31] So here are my questions. Cause here I'll read I'll read you now uh poor guy from Montana's question. Um since you guys are professional restaurant equipment uh producers, designers, I want to ask you a question that has been driving me crazy. Why doesn't anyone make brass plates to stick into a meat grinder and extrude pasta with? A uh number 12 hub meat grinder is cheap.
+
+[14:52] I wouldn't I would use the anyway. Um a pasta extruder is expensive. Could I get a machinist to fabricate some brass plates from my cheap Chinese Hobart attachment and extrude pasta to my heart's delight? Poor guy from Montana. All right, now here's here's here's my thoughts, and then you just go off.
+
+[15:08] Ready? One meat grinder auger, slightly different from a pasta auger. The pasta augers I've looked at on the web have a constant pitch rather than uh kind of an accelerated pitch like a meat grinder has. That's one. Two, you're gonna want to remove the cutting blade off of the end of the meat auger, uh, meat grinder auger and replace it with just a spacer because you're not gonna want that cutting force right behind your extruding die.
+
+[15:34] But other than that, I think it might actually work. What do you think? I I I think it'll work pretty much without a problem. I mean, you're again, you're you're you're you're fixing the problem, sort of. Uh so I guess you're you're allowing yourself to get to where you want to go, but if if at the end of the day you want to actually make pasta, you want to get the pasta machine.
+
+[15:54] If you mean if you want to adapt it for a couple of days or you know, a year or so to see if it works, but I think if you're gonna start to make pasta, you're gonna have a such a demand for it that to be jerry-rigning your meat grinder to be extruding pasta dough is is uh not a long-term solution. Oh, yeah, yeah. In a in a restaurant, 100%. But like let's say you're let's say that your your handle is literally poor guy from Montana, and you know, you already own the grinder because like, you know, like two, three times a year you grind a whole elk through it because you know, the elk, you know, the elk the elk is running through trampling on your garden anyway. So you shoot that elk right in the heart, you grind it through your hobart.
+
+[16:37] You have the hobart sitting there, you know. You don't have a couple of grand. I would bet that you could find uh because here's the other thing. Like, I don't know a lot about the plate sizes in in pasta extruders, but there's there's several different plate sizes, and on eBay, you can get individual pasta plates for like uh the dies for like, I don't know, I forget like a hundred bucks, right, Alex? Something like that.
+
+[16:59] Yeah, it seems to me that you could probably have someone make an attachment for the hobart that would at least let you try it. And obviously, if you were gonna do this professionally, you know, obviously, you know, you you'd want to go professionally, but I think I think you might be able to get some tests, but I do think you'd need to remove the blade. Do you think so? Or do you think the blade wouldn't be a problem? No, I mean, I look, I mean, if if you look at the small meat grinder attachment anyway, the small, the smallest die that they make, that's almost like a beagle, right?
+
+[17:29] Right. So if you have one of those kicking around, I'd throw dough through it first and see and see what happens. I think it'll work. But on the on the die on the dies for those things, don't they uh they're um what what's it? They're uh they're chamfered, aren't they, to kind of like gently excr extrude to the to the face surface.
+
+[17:47] Like they're not it's not like uh it's not like uh a deep through all the way through, isn't it? Or no? They're not I mean the no you say the pasta the pasta dies kick out, yeah. They're they're they they stick out so you can cut smoothly. Right.
+
+[18:01] I mean in other words, like I think it's a little bit more difficult to extrude um in other words, like if you were going to extrude something through a plate and it went from it went from being you know completely unextruded to the final hole size and then had to traverse the entire length of the die at that diameter, I think that's gonna be a lot harder for the machine to handle than if it's champ chamfered in the back and then like only has to pass through that thin place once through a small, you know, a th a small uh distance of going through that thin area, don't you think so? Uh so it it it depends on the shape. So like a spaghetti die, on the back of a spaghetti, yeah, it's it's it's it's just all those holes. Huh? It just pushes the dough through it.
+
+[18:46] But for let's say shells or something like that, it's got that smaller bit, so it it downsizes the dough. So it can actually come out as a shell. Huh. Now, do you think that uh I mean I know that like for various texture reasons, yada yada yada, uh, you know, brass is the material of choice or bronze is material of choice for these dyes, but do you think that the stainless uh steel uh plates would work just as a test to see how well it would work? Absolutely.
+
+[19:13] I mean, look, you're already you've you've already decided that you're gonna run pasta dough through a meat grinder. I I don't think we need to, you know, get meticulous about getting a bronze dye. Alright. So as a first test, poor guy from Montana can like take the blade out of the back, just put a bushing on it to to take up the slack and see whether or not he can push it through a you know through the uh you know the medium or the or the I don't know how fine the plate plate he has, but just test it to see whether it works. Exactly.
+
+[19:39] I mean there's an I think there's an eighth of an inch which is which will be like a thick bigly so I I'll give that a shot. I mean on the on the on the on like the they also they also make one for for juicers right for like the uh the the the the slow revolution juicers they make pasta plates for those again home style but so it's that's not too much of a difference than a meat grinder as well. Right but I'm assuming poor guy from Montana wants to use the like an actual proper hydration dough. The other thing I'm concerned about is isn't your pasta auger longer for its diameter than a meat auger is I think it depends on your your darn machine. I mean the auger's pretty big but it again it's it's that's because it's it's it's a pretty big hopper so it's it's taking dough from the whole space.
+
+[20:30] Right but in other words part of the actual compression and hydration is happening in the augering procedure. So the I think it's I I think it's pulling it in and but you I think it's only in in the in the neck of the the machine where you're having having it happen. I think it's it's literally the dough is just dropping in earlier on. Right, right, right. But is the neck longer for the diameter of the auger than it would be because like a KitchenAid meat grinder which I'm no fan of I love the KitchenAid by the way but I'm zero fan of their meat grinder.
+
+[20:58] The auger is extremely short on that and also plastic. So I don't know that you're gonna be able to generate I don't know that you have the time to get the dough in the proper consist uh consistency from that crumbly thing to being perfect dough, uh, you know, in the traverse time of that of that particular meat grinder because the auger is so short, even if you had enough power to, you know, overcome it. You know what I'm saying? I do. Um I'm trying to try to think so the our meat grinder that we use, we use uh one the the Lem Meat grinder.
+
+[21:28] Right. Which is which is got a it's got a big auger. I mean, you know, uh but it it spits meat out super fast. So I I think it'd be interesting to see how it how it kicked out dough. Yeah.
+
+[21:38] I think it would grab it. But I I wonder if it's almost too fast. You want something moving a little bit slower. Uh, and you can't, they're not meant to be changed. Here's another thing, by the way.
+
+[21:47] So poor guy from Montana is using a Hobart knockoff from China. And something I will tell you about motors is that uh a lot of motors really, really, really, really do not enjoy being loaded beyond their stated capacity, right? And so I guarantee you the f the good people at the Hobart Corporation have taken into account the fact that everyone and you know and their sibling is going to completely and utterly abuse their product. Uh in most commercial, like actual name name brand commercial restaurant equipment that I've ever used, you can beat the ever loving crap out of it. And you might you you might you know flip a thermal, you might melt a safety off, you might, you know, boil water, you might burn your hand on the motor, but afterwards it's gonna come back to life.
+
+[22:37] Um like knockoff versions, like I often find like, you know, they use cheaper gears, so you might break the gear in in a situation if you 'cause a pasta dough is a lot of freaking force. You know what I'm saying? Um and so you want slow extrusion with extremely high force. And uh, so you know, you might run into problems with the with the Hobart uh with the Hobart knockoff there. Whereas as you're saying, you know, with with like the real ones, it's either it's gonna work or it's gonna not not.
+
+[23:07] It's gonna be too fast or it's not. But I wouldn't worry that I'm gonna destroy the machine because I'm presuming it's built with a level of quality that can withstand that. Whereas, you know, i you know if if the thing if the the thing might be like a complete champ on meat but then uh you know you try to shove something that's really hard into it and you and you fry it. It's like my nickstomatic my masa grinder you know churns through masa like a champ because that's what it's designed to do. But you put um you put like uh peanuts with sugar.
+
+[23:36] You know how you know how when you uh process sugar and nuts together it turns into like basically concrete Alex you ever done that one? Like it like the paste turns to like concrete because I was doing it to try to get maximum oil extraction and uh and it it seized the machine and then like the giant puff of smoke out of the back. It came back to life thank goodness but you know you ha you have to you know w when you overload something you have to be careful especially if it hasn't been designed with thermal protection in mind. Just a you know little little tip. You want to take another call Dave?
+
+[24:09] Uh yeah we can keep Alex on the on the caller you're on the air. Hey this is uh Scooter in Montana how you guys doing all right hey are you are you poor guy? No I'm not poor guy. All right. Well I love that we have at least two people in Montana that are listening.
+
+[24:24] That's amazing. All right what's your question you got more than that. So I I have a bag juice question. Um, I like to do my burgers, low temp. I throw a little butter in the bag, maybe some garlic.
+
+[24:35] Uh when they're done, I have delightful bag juice, which is usually about half oil um or fat and half liquid. Um then what I tend to do is brush it on the buns and grill the buns. Um and it's delicious, but there are two problems. One is sometimes using the brush, you end up with just oil and just water. So I solved that one.
+
+[24:57] I added a little lecetin and blended in a multiply, but it's still really, really rummy. And so it makes the buns really soggy. Um, what I was wondering is is there a way to get that juice into something resembling a mayonnaise or a spread that I could spread on the buns before hitting them on the grill. Well, I mean, uh, Alex, I'm gonna let you chime in for a second, but uh in a second, but like uh a lot of the um a lot of this, especially if you're doing this in kind of uh service restaurant situation, it would when I was working with uh juices out of bags or anything like this, sauces on on braises, etc. Typically what I would do is I would use yesterday's bag juice to work with today's product.
+
+[25:43] And what what that does for you is it gives you some extra time. So then if you if you have that, you know, uh fat from yesterday, then sure, you can make a mayonnaise out of it, you know, like traditionally, like with egg white. You can do whatever you want. You know, you can pre-boil the bag juice to get rid of the extra scummy proteins, strain it all through with the liquid, um, you know, take an egg yolk, mayonnaise it, or use any of the kind of more modern techniques to do it, and then use yesterday's product on today's burger. And like that's the easiest way, because I find that most of the interventions that are gonna let you do anything rather than just brush it on, aren't a I'm just gonna do this while this thing is uh, you know, finishing or getting ready to go out, because it just takes a little more, it's just a little more franc frantic or hectic if you do it that way.
+
+[26:28] Alex, what do you think? Well, uh since we're speaking with you about uh and on on the line about it, that actually sounds like a a a prime use for your spinzall, in the sense that I would take all the juices and run them through the your centrifuge, have the fat, have the liquid and have the scum, take the fat and the liquid, and then be able to make my beautiful mayonnaise with the fat and the liquid and then get rid of the scum in one shot and then be just have this great production. Right, sure. But but you you would use yesterday as product, you'd use yesterday. I mean there's there's no way you're you're pulling it and going you you've got to get at least one day ahead.
+
+[27:02] So the the the first day somebody gets screwed. They don't get the quite the the the same experience. So I'm I'm just I'm just at home here um and uh uh so I understand that that's you're saying that that's maybe not uh possibility for same-day service, but what would be your technique? Let's say I do have some some bag juices from yesterday and you're talking about some more modernist uh ways to or just traditional ways to whip up the mayonnaise. What would what would be your technique there?
+
+[27:29] Well, if you were if you let's just go back to your actual problem for a sec. So if you're trying to do it with today's with today's product, right? Yeah. Uh what I would do is I would uh the the issue with mayonnaise in general, other than it is delicious, is that um you wanna stay within the within the proper ratio of um of uh fat to liquid. So you're gonna want to stay about eighty percent fat or thereabouts.
+
+[27:59] If you go if you go too much more uh liquid than that, it's gonna get too thin. If you go too much, a little, you know, a lot more fat than that. Isn't that right now? It's about eighty percent, right? And then uh if you go too much above that, it could break, you're gonna get that shimmery look at the top and break.
+
+[28:15] So what you could do if you want to do this on the quick is you could pre-start a mayonnaise, right? So if you pre if you take an egg yolk and you know, you pre-start a mayonnaise, but don't don't like let it stay thin, but not not broken. Don't fully mount it up to its full capacity. Uh then you can dope uh you can dope your fat from the bag back in along with the mixture. Alternatively, because uh, you know, if you read Harold McGee, an egg yolk can really with can really take a lot more oil than we're we're used to.
+
+[28:48] Let's say your bag juice to fat ratio is around 80% in that range. Then you can pre-make a mayonnaise fully mount it up, right, to mayonnaise uh texture, then just whisk your your whole garbage together and then into the mayonnaise, and it should hold it. I mean, uh I would test it. You know, Alex, what would you add to stabilize? Would you add anything to stabilize it, or do you think this would work?
+
+[29:13] I think it would work. Do we lose Alex, Dave? Sounds like it. Oh, maybe he'll call back in. I think it'll work.
+
+[29:21] Mayonnaise is a little bit uh hopefully you'll call back in. When we used to teach the class with uh Harold McGee at the FCI, we would we would make a gallon of mayonnaise out of one egg yolk, and it's always a little bit trying, like you know, it's like we always get like really close to gallon, and then it would finally break. But um, you know, like uh you can you can do pretty well. It's just about keeping your liquid to uh to um fat ratio proper. And also, uh, you know, you obviously you have to add salt and whatnot, or mayonnaise is is god awful, and it's nice to have a little acid in it, or again, mayonnaise.
+
+[29:59] I you know, I don't like mayonnaise without some acid in it because it's just then it's in kind of insipid garbage. Um I've never made a mayonnaise with butter. Uh I don't know why, maybe because I'm a low-quality individual. By the way, Dax is working on the low-quality individual shirt, Nastasia. Uh so we can sell another three t-shirts.
+
+[30:17] Yeah. But the um, but there's a famous recipe, his name just went out of my head, but he was the uh might still be for all I know, the head uh chef of uh Valrona chocolate, famous guy. I don't know why I can't remember his name. And one of his like kind of famous recipes is a mayonnaise made with uh cocoa butter, with like chocolate and cocoa butter. And uh he has to keep that mayonnaise kind of at the right temperature because uh once um the cocoa butter solidifies, the mayonnaise breaks.
+
+[30:48] And so it's like keeping it warm, but it's a warm mayonnaise, and so I you know, butter takes longer to solidify than um than uh cocoa butter does, but you're probably gonna want to keep it in the range where um the butter is going to be fluid because mayonnaise is built around a fluid oil, obviously, but not so hot that you curdle the egg yolk, you know what I'm saying? R right, and well, especially because some of the fat in there too is the rendered beef tallow. Right, right, right. And so, and that's that stuff gets waxy real quick. So, in fact, by the way, this is one of the reasons that I really like to so low temperature uh meats in general, um steaks specifically.
+
+[31:31] I often like to finish with liquid oil like olive oil. One because I find it delicious, like a finishing oil, like a you know, Italian style styles. You like that, right? Like a like a steak with olive oil on top. But also because uh just adding a little bit of liquid fat on top of the steak uh helps prevent that waxiness that can happen if you let pure stake on stake action like sit around too long and congeal, and nobody likes I mean I don't know, maybe somebody likes that waxy.
+
+[31:56] I guess on a roast beef sandwich that wacky waxy texture is what you're looking for. But I hope not. Yeah, but no, but you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm talking about, that waxy, you know what I'm talking about, that waxy. Yeah.
+
+[32:08] Yeah, I mean something that I like when I you know cook potatoes or something in in tallow, but uh but yeah, obviously why don't I have a steak. Yeah, no, you don't want a steak. So anyway, well uh I want you to try that. Hopefully sometime you'll try that, and then like uh I'd like you to let us know whether or not it worked, and then uh we can uh futz around with it more. It's difficult.
+
+[32:28] I mean you can thicken the uh water base of the uh uh of of this stuff, right? And then if you emulsify it, the entire thing will be thicker, but it ain't gonna be mayonnaise. You know what I mean? I mean mayonnaise is like you know, a minor miracle. Like I love mayonnaise.
+
+[32:46] It came to my attention a couple years ago that there's some people that don't like mayonnaise, and I just don't understand that. Like, you know, uh I just don't get it because mayonnaise is like such uh you know a miracle kind of a product. But anyway, let it uh let us know um how your mayonnaise test work. Oh, the main fat thickeners that people use to thicken fat, I don't happen to like them because the ones at least that I have used require a lot of uh a lot to like thicken the stuff up properly. And uh even GMF.
+
+[33:17] Oh, wait, uh uh wait, you're back, Alex. I am. I I I I kept keeping dumped out. I was gonna say GMS. You can use a small amount to thicken the fat up for sure.
+
+[33:25] Yeah? Is that available at Modernistpantry.com? Ah sponsor. I'm thinking it's gotta be. Yeah.
+
+[33:31] Well how what's what percentage do you use? Shoot. It was it w it I think it was at like one percent, if not less. Really? You were able to uh yeah, and you and you can make spread oil mayonnaise, spreadable chorizo oil, uh anything.
+
+[33:43] Yeah. Oh well, so try that out. 'Cause I yeah, no, I never I never really played around with that. Like, you know, back when I the last time I worried about this was literally ten years ago. And uh, you know, and all all we had then was like mono and diglycerides, and that stuff is nasty to use as a thickener.
+
+[34:00] I mean it's awesome stuff, but it's nasty to use as a s thickener because you're using like five, six percent of mono and diglycerides to thicken your stuff up. I mean, Alex, are you am I wrong about that? Or have you had any good luck with that stuff? No, right? No, I I I I I uh yeah, I mean the G I mean the GMS is is worked out really well.
+
+[34:21] I got it uh again I as you said, you about it it was about five, seven years ago we were we were really working with it as a as a thickener. Uh mono diglycerides I haven't used in in forever since um and so as a as a true thickener, but it'll it'll it I look at more as an emulsifier. Yeah, no, it's great for that. But like I remember back in the day when everyone was trying to figure out what to do with this stuff when it first became, you know, available, you know, people were doping it directly into oil at huge rates to actually thicken the oil, but not only is it uh nasty at those levels, but like the texture is wildly temperature dependent. And so, you know, you'd have it would go waxy super quick as it cooled off.
+
+[35:01] You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so any of those things could try. So traditional mayonnaise or you know, whatever, you know, you know, w what Alex is talking about.
+
+[35:10] And how what percent what percentage did you say, Dad? Uh I'm I'm I'm trying at I'm trying to go back to my notes. And if you give me 30 seconds on the uh on this new thing called the internet, I can look on our website. Ooh, nice. I I certainly have it from years years ago.
+
+[35:26] But let's see. Let me see. While uh while Alex is searching. So hopefully uh this is helpful and you will uh have great success either using a traditional technique or or a modern technique and then let us know how let us know how it works out. Yeah, well in the meantime, uh you guys should come out to Montana.
+
+[35:44] You got you got fans out here. Really? You know, I've never been to Montana, but I hear it's like intensely beautiful out there. Yeah, we get we'll get some percent. Wait, what'd you say, uh Alex?
+
+[35:54] One percent? One percent. Yeah. Yeah. So like it melts right into it.
+
+[35:58] Yeah. So right into the fat. Cool. So theoretically, I love Montana, but I've never been. Stas.
+
+[36:04] You ever been to Montana? Montana's gorgeous. Yeah, I would love stunning. Where were you guys used to be? You guys used to be in Colorado, right, Alex?
+
+[36:12] We were we we were we were in Colorado for four years, and then we actually spent the season out uh in white sulfur springs running a private ranch out there as well. So's that. Hey, no kidding. Is that in Montana? Uh uh in Montana, yep.
+
+[36:24] Are there in fact white sulfur springs there? White sulfur springs. You know, I I don't know. I was uh we we were stuck on the property, so yeah. That that I'm not sure.
+
+[36:33] We we went from the property to Bozeman every once in a while for ingredients. Nice. Yeah, so no, I'll go sometime. Sometime I'll get to go. Uh excellent.
+
+[36:41] Anyway, let us know. Let us know how it works. All right, child. Thank you, good both. All right, thanks.
+
+[36:46] Dave, you want to uh read that thing real quick and then we can take another call? Alright, Alex, are you uh uh Alex, you staying you staying with us? Yeah, we got I got you. Alright, cool. I'm gonna read a little uh I gotta do a little bid naz, do a little bid nas.
+
+[36:58] Uh today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modernistpantry.com. All right. Oh, I meant the longer one. Oh man.
+
+[37:10] I'll read the long I'll read the long one on uh on the outro. Oh, okay. I'll read the long one now. Okay. Okay, okay, business people.
+
+[37:18] Uh this is what is uh known in the trade, uh although trade implies that we're being paid for this. That's true. Which is just not the case. But anyway, uh this is called the mid roll ad. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you.
+
+[37:31] Jamie Chris and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter what your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[38:08] And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. My God, my mouth is so full of spit from not stopping in the middle of that. Alright. Well done. Okay, we have a caller.
+
+[38:20] Caller, you're on the air. What do you got for us? Hey, Dave. Um, my friend and I are working on a uh mojito. Okay.
+
+[38:39] Alex, you done a lot of work with meringues or no? Yeah, I mean uh look, the the the salad I'd make I'd make I'd make mint water. Huh. Well how mu how much and use powdered egg whites. Huh.
+
+[38:51] You hearing that caller? Powdered egg whites. Okay. Here's the trick with powdered egg whites. Powdered egg whites come in various different uh qualities.
+
+[39:01] So uh like way back in the day, I'm talking like in the 90s, I I haven't researched it recently. Like uh a lot of Chinese, a lot of egg white dried egg white came out of China and it had like very particular properties as opposed to other ones. I forget it was really liked for certain things and not uh for others, but the recently the powdered egg whites that I've seen are all relatively neutral, relatively clean. The issue with the powdered egg white is you want to allow proper time for hydration. Am I wrong about this, Alex?
+
+[39:30] Or no, I again it it it it's still it still wants to be properly hydrated. But with with when we were when we were flavoring things, for sure, it was it was using uh again, powdered egg whites so we could use a flavored liquid, an intensely flavored liquid. So if you're trying to make like you know, the mint pavlova, I'd be using again a concentrated mint tea or or or liquid, uh, and then and then the powdered egg whites and uh to make the uh make it happen. And by the way, go with the mint tea. It's like buying commercial mint tea is the easiest way to get a relatively stable uh liquid mint flavor and then dope it with mint oil.
+
+[40:07] Actually attempting to get because mint oil is real and mint tea is real, trying to take mint from uh the garden and getting a stable kind of mint flavor, I find to be exceedingly difficult. Have you ever had any like perfect luck with that, Alex? Or no? I think it's really hard. No, it it it ends up tasting so uh grassy and sorry, like the the it just it doesn't work.
+
+[40:32] Right. So mint tea has been like good, proper, like you know, like Moroccan style mint tea has been dried. Once it's dried, my impression is is that it's relative it's it's relatively more stable, and then it's being steeped in hot water, which also makes it relatively more stable. Uh, but you will not have the freshness that comes from the oil. It'll be a different flavor, which is why I would dope back in a little bit, a little bit.
+
+[41:00] Uh, because uh the I guess the oil theoretically will destabilize the egg whites, uh, but a little bit's not gonna kill you, but I would do it in for freshness. Uh what do you think, Alex? I I I I I like I like the two-step process there for sure. Yeah. Again, anytime we can we can layer those those those flavors together, I think we're in a better place.
+
+[41:20] Um extract or whatever. Sorry. Wait, what'd you say? I couldn't hear you, caller. Peppermint extract, you think that would be the job, or just straight oil?
+
+[41:30] Uh wait, I I wouldn't use just straight oil. I would use uh because the oil is a certain portion of the mint flavor, and it like in a a lot of that's the flavor that you would lose from cooking the mint from blanching it, which is what's gonna basically what's gonna be happening when you're making the mint tea, you're gonna get more of a cooked mint flavor. I really think if you want an integrated uh mint uh experience, especially if you want that color from the mint, that you're gonna want to um you're gonna want to do two steps. You're gonna want to buy the mint tea, steep it, and then add the oil. If you want just mint flavor, sure, you could just use regular egg whites and uh dope it with a little mint oil, you know, after it's after it's I would say probably after you've whipped it, wouldn't you say Alex?
+
+[42:20] Probably after you've whipped it, I would stir stir it in and pipe it. What do you say? It's not gonna want to whip otherwise with the yet with the mint oil in there. Right. And it's gonna kill it somewhat, but like once it's stabilized with sugar, you should be able to get a little bit of it in, which is all you're gonna need, uh you know, right you know, prior to piping.
+
+[42:38] And yeah, you could fake it then with color, but I think you're gonna be just have like a much more integrated experience if you um if you make the tea and then use the powdered egg white. And by the way, like you can have a portion of it be powdered. So like you know uh you know Johnny Azzini used to use a lot of powdered egg white in conjunction with actual egg white when only a portion of the liquid base needed to be highly flavored or need to be bolstered. So you know it's not an all or nothing proposition. Yeah and the other thing you can do is actually is actually dust the uh dust the mering once you've got it piped out with dried mint.
+
+[43:14] Oh that's a good almost like you do like a green tea but have have your dried beef and powder that guy up and just dust it over it. Okay. And you know and and then I guess another the a final option would be if you uh if you again nitrumuddle your mint right and then fold that into your meringue. Well nitro muddled mint though still unless it's blanched is gonna go really it's gonna go black. So you have to blanch it first and as soon as that mint hits as soon as whole mint hits heat, it loses the magic of fresh mint.
+
+[43:47] Because it's it's not that it's not delicious anymore. It just it's not the same. It doesn't have that hyper fresh um you know, but honestly, like another thing you could do is you could do a nitromuttled mint or a dried mint into the meringue straight without worrying about it, and then after it's cooked, missed some of like missed a small amount of the oil on the top to get that, and that'll probably also give you a lot of the mint because it takes a minuscule amount of mint oil to to bring that mintiness out. Um so you know, if you find that like adding even a little bit of mint oil to the uh meringue, you know, makes the meringue because as you know, it's you've seen you I'm sure b you know both of you seen it. You add a you know, a little bit of oil and you s you get a lot of bubble popping.
+
+[44:33] It's not that it's it's not as much of a disaster as you know the old cookbooks would lead you to believe, but it's definitely not your friend for like a uh meringue that's stable enough to sit there and pipe and then and then bake out. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't have any access to nitro yet. I'm working on that, but hey, uh how what if I brought an ISI into it? Would that do anything or would that be uh is that a waste of uh cartridges?
+
+[44:57] I mean, I don't really see how the ISI is gonna help you in this situation since it's not really an infusion problem. I think um, you know, uh or it's also not really a whipping problem. I think egg whites are a lot better, you know, except for cocktail style style egg whites, like meringues are a lot better like with a beater, you know what I mean? And uh you know what would be interesting is it I mean you can play it on the base, but if you took fent fresh mint leaves and let them sit in your egg whites for a day in the refrigerator, and see if you can infuse them infuse your egg whites with mint flavor that way. Yeah, you could you could try as long as the the the real issue is like you're gonna want the problem with the mint is is that um right most of the the oil that flavor stuff is on the bottom of the leaves and these little kind of like uh those little kind of like, you know, whatever I forget the name of them, these little like oil things on the bottom of the leaves.
+
+[45:44] Yeah. And then um the the issue is is that mint is perhaps the most susceptible to leaf damage uh in terms of flavor, that swampy, spinachy, grassy flavor of any common herb. It's the most susceptible. So like, you know, and if there's any oxygen around it when it's doing its thing, then it's gonna go kind of swampy on you. So you might wanna like, if you have a vacuum machine, if you wanted to try an infusion in your egg white of fresh mint, I would definitely try it under a vacuum to try to get the oxygen out because there's enough residual oxygen in a mint leaf to make it go swampy just on its own as soon as it starts getting damaged, because it's gonna get damaged from being under the liquid.
+
+[46:31] You mean you know what I'm saying? What do you think, Alex? Don't you think so? Vacuum is the way you would to go here? I think so, and I I think you're probably gonna get a maybe some more flavor out of it as well.
+
+[46:39] Right, but I think But vacuuming egg vacuuming egg whites is a hilarious procedure if you have somebody else doing it. You have to be like really you have to really look at your bag because once an egg white starts boiling, the bubbles don't pop readily. And so uh your bag tends to fill up pretty quickly with uh bubbles. So you're gonna want to use a way oversized bag, and you're gonna want to have plenty of room in your vacuum chamber, uh, and you're gonna want to keep your finger on the stop button so that you don't uh otherwise it's gonna I mean I'm it's it's kind of a a toss as to what's more of a pain in the butt, egg whites or m or milk for this kind of a thing, but you know, they're both kind of pains in the butts in a vacuum machine, at least in my experience. I don't know.
+
+[47:22] Uh Alex, do you have any tricks on vacuuming those things or just watch out because they're a pain? I'd I'd I'd watch out and I'd have somebody else do it. That way they should that was that way they can clean the machine. Right. And then what you you always what you do is you look at them and you yell at them call them incompetent even though you would have done the same thing and then force them to clean it.
+
+[47:39] That's always the way. Would you blanch them or anything at before the fresh mint? Could you uh blanch it? No. Well here's why.
+
+[47:49] If you were going to wrap it up then this if you were gonna blanch it, then you might then you can do anything. Once you blanch the mint, then pff, you know, all bets are off. You can do whatever you want. You could blend it, you could, you know, roll it into a cigarette and smoke it because you know you've already lost the stuff that you're trying to keep in there for have by you know having it be hyper fresh. So I mean I mean Alex you might disagree with me but I would say that if you're you know if you're gonna blanch it then I would just don't sweat it.
+
+[48:15] Just blend it and add it to your egg white and beat away. You know what I mean? At the end. Like fold it in. I really like the powdered dry idea like really finely powder it in a spice blender and then f and then uh fold it in at the end as though it I I I think that that actually is a nice way to go and then maybe misting with a little fresh uh mint oil afterwards.
+
+[48:35] Um what do you think Alex? That might be the easiest of all of it without or like your idea of making the mint tea and then with the egg white that's the most integrated but if you didn't want to go through the pain in the ass of doing that your idea of powdering the dry and then maybe with a like a an additional um little bit might be might be good. What do you think Alex? I I think so I I think also if you split it just lightly with the oil and then dust it, that it's gonna adhere to it really nicely as well. Oh, yeah, on the outside.
+
+[49:01] I was thinking he could do on the inside of the uh Pavlova as well, like in the in the meringue proper, but I guess just the dusting also would be nice. You could yeah, but I mean folding I mean I I think that's both are solid. I think they're they're I mean they're now you you you you've I think delivered uh uh you know a bunch of different ideas to to try and explore. It's it's like you know, how many of them do you want to integrate isn't the question now? Would you say that we've given him some ideas and food?
+
+[49:24] I I I think some some ideas some ideas and food. He's gonna have to deal with his cooking issues, but he has plenty of ideas and food. All right. Love you both. All right, thanks.
+
+[49:35] All right. Well, listen, well, uh I didn't get to all the questions today, but thanks so much. Uh I have a question on Tankatsu broth that uh we'll get to next time in Pressure Cooker. Alex, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure to have you.
+
+[49:46] Uh we'll be back next week with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[50:16] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[50:44] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We are a member supported nonprofit food radio station. That means that every single thing we do, from broadcasting 35 weekly shows for free, to bringing you exclusive content from sold-out food events across the country to offering scholarships to high school students is only possible thanks to the support of our loyal members.
+
+[0:41] And we want you to join the club. Become a member during our 2017 summer drive to get access to sweet swag and pledge your support to the world's only food radio station. Visit Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate to become a member now. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:26] How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah, you have a good week. Yeah. We also have uh some we have oh we don't have uh Dave in the booth today.
+
+[1:32] We got Vitor in the booth. How are you doing? Hey man. Doing well, doing well. Doing good.
+
+[1:36] Um we have special guest, Nick Wong, uh, formerly employed, currently unemployed cook. So if you have any unemployed cook questions, call that too. Or if you need a cook. Or if you need a cook. Like a private home shop.
+
+[1:49] Wait, wait, are you moving to Milpitas? Where are you moving to? I'm Mill I'm I'm moving to nowhere right now. I'm just hanging out in New York for a little bit. Oh, cool.
+
+[1:55] All right. But he's willing to move. Not but temporarily. If you pay for his lodging. Why's it gonna be Milpitas?
+
+[2:01] Always with the Milpitas. Well, I don't know. Always Milpitas. Always Milpita's. Yeah, Booker hates to speak of special guest.
+
+[2:07] Special guest, it is uh it is international take your kid to work life. Is it that's what I'm like yeah, my it's like a my whole life uh right now. So we have uh Booker Arnold. You might know him from such things as having a bar named after him back in the day. Booker, how you doing?
+
+[2:23] Um not much is going on, but now that I don't have school anymore, it's really I I consider that a bonus, and I and now I and now I do no work at all. Yeah, I see, I see work is not my thing, it's not your jam. Work, academics, goodbye. So listen, Booker, you were the reason that uh the family went uh vegetarian recently. So pescatarian.
+
+[2:53] Okay, pescatarian. Dax is now what he calls a flexitarian. So Dad would yeah, but dad refuses because he still loves meat products. So your dad eats meat. Yes.
+
+[3:03] Yes, he does, even though you guys don't eat meat. Yeah, even though my brother is not supposed to have meat, I s when we went up to we went up to my aunt's house in Connecticut, we there was there was bacon at the brunch, and uh ate it. Even though even though it looked so delicious, I still reminded myself Booker. You know you you don't like it what how animals are killed for the for the meat, so you are not going to get your food from animals who were killed. And then Dax took a slice, and then when no one was looking, he went except me, he ran into the bathroom, closed, well, yeah, closed the door, but there was a tiny crack on like around around the door corners inside.
+
+[3:50] So I watched, I watched him eat the bacon, and I'm like, mommy, Dax was eating the bacon, even though he's not supposed to. It's his choice. If he wants to eat the bacon, he eats the bacon. If he doesn't want to eat the bacon, but it's not cool if he says, I'm still a vegetarian. He said he was, and then recently vegetarian questions or any being a picky teenager questions, you can call them.
+
+[4:16] Yes, you are super. I'm so picky that my mom doesn't let me get anything, not even ice cream because it's summer. Oh. Well, because you only eat complex carbohydrates. Yeah, that's all you eat.
+
+[4:29] Like crackers. Yeah. Like, is cheese a carbohydrate? Uh no. Cheese is not a carbohydrate.
+
+[4:35] But you don't eat that much cheese. What about fruits are not carbohydrates, are they? Sugar. Fruit's basically just a pile of sugar held together with some pectin. Well, it's healthy.
+
+[4:43] What about apples? Apples are basically a bunch of sugar and water held together with some pectin and heavy cellulose, couple couple, you know, nutrients in the world. Apples are well known for reducing the risks of many kinds of cancer. Okay, I'm glad you said that, but that's a lie. That's what we like to refer to as a lie.
+
+[4:58] Don't get it. An apple, you know what an apple a day does. No, an apple a day sells an extra apple a day from the apple industry, is what an apple a day does. I'm all for eating an apple a day because I think apples are delicious, but don't eat apples for any freaking health reason. I mean, Nick, where are you with it?
+
+[5:14] You're with me on this, right? What? It's it's an extra way to get an apple into your diet, so yeah, I'll I'm for apples. Apples are are good. Apples taste good.
+
+[5:23] But uh I know look. Let me ask you a question, Booker. Do you think that apple farmers don't go to the doctor? Uh or is it that more than one apple a day, then the doctor comes really quickly? It's like a like a bell curve like one apple a day, no doctor, zero apples a day, doctor, too many apples, doctor.
+
+[5:44] Is it like one? But then what size apple are we talking about? Too much of anything is bad. That is true. That's correct.
+
+[5:49] Uh oh. Oh my I've never heard Booker bust out the moderation. Hey, speaking of too much of anything is bad. I I I used an excuse in my old school, too much homework is bad. In third grade, I got tons of homework.
+
+[6:05] That was also three years ago, Booker. So uh no. It was s six years ago. Alright, well then why do you still remember? See, this is what I'm talking about, people.
+
+[6:13] When you have kids with long memories, that they never remember the nice things you do for them. It's only the punishment. Booker can remember punishments from like ten years ago. I remember in kindergarten getting getting getting sent to the naughty corner for calling the teacher obnoxious. Yes, well, I'm sure she was.
+
+[6:29] Anyway, uh okay, now Booker, we gotta we gotta do some cooking stuff, okay? I was only six. All right, cooking, right? From here on out, we're talking cooking. Okay.
+
+[6:37] Okay. Uh all right. So we had a bunch of questions we didn't get to uh last week. So let's uh if we start for once in our life with uh stuff from from uh Booker. Don't rub the microphone cover, we can all hear that.
+
+[6:50] That's with a guitar pick. Nastasia told me, no, I didn't. Oh, I bet you she did. You know what, Booker? I she was like, I'm gonna go.
+
+[6:56] Booker, look what's on the floor, and I bet you know what? You know what, Booker? I want to hear for everyone out there. This is exactly what Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is like. Hand a guitar pick to my son and make him do something in the hopes that I lose my mind on my son on air so that she can make me look like a bad dad.
+
+[7:14] And she's laughing because it's true. This is what Nastasia the Hammer Lopez that's Nick Wall, am I right or wrong? Those words right. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[7:26] So uh we got some stories for later, like in case we run out of time. Like I gotta tell the story about Watson in the elevator. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. I thought I was gonna.
+
+[7:34] Can't you tell that one first? No, no, no. But I will say this. Uh over the past week there's been some uh food news. Um a bl a blogger in uh a fitness blogger in Spain was killed with her uh cream whipper.
+
+[7:48] Yikes. Yeah. And it was, I mean, it's serious, and she had like a like a like a lot, a lot of followers, but uh, she was using uh a cream whipper. I forget the brand she was using, uh, but it wasn't it wasn't the you know, EC, which is the brand I use. So like I went on um I went on the uh Twitter and I was like, look, only buy the EC ones.
+
+[8:07] And the reason I say that is because there are probably other manufacturers that go through the same safety like checks that EC goes through. I just know that I visited their factory in Austria, I saw them build them, I saw how they control the steel, I saw how they, you know, how they do their hydro testing, I saw like all the safety, like um multiple safety uh things they have, like the like the blowout um the blowout threads, etc. etc. And like all the testing they do. And I was like, okay, these guys, in fact, EC would not let me, they would not publish recipes of mine that uh contained chargers that were safe in their unit, specifically because they were worried someone would try it in somebody else's unit that didn't have the safeties and blow themselves up.
+
+[8:49] And so I don't know what this uh I don't know what she was making, this this blogger when she when she was killed, but she was killed um with a um I apparently also there was a recall on the unit she had but it's just uh you know and especially as manufacturers nostasi we've we think about safety all the time it's horrifying any time you have a product that you do they buy a lot of insurance well it's not just why you buy a lot of insurance I mean you have to buy that anyway because stuff's eventually gonna always happen no matter what but uh you know someone will someone will stab themselves with a butter knife if you give them a chance because because people are what Nick? Idiots there you go but the um hey what who are you calling idiots I'm a person well I'm also an idiot there you go yeah we have we have one question uh from a caller all right caller you're on the air hi David George uh the question is my girlfriend is a lactose intolerant right usually she takes lactate fills before meals to help with it but I also found you have like the lactase free melt where they add the lactate lactase enzyme to like deactivate the lactose right when I can't find information on like how much to use or how much time you gotta wait or even a supply for it. Of this of the of the straight enzyme that's a really interesting issue. So there's not that much lactose and it's not going to change the taste that much to break down the lactose right so anyway you you say you have not found a source for the enzyme or you have I've if I search Amazon I could find some but I was wondering if there's like any differences between like brands of it. There always is and so like uh any enzyme so there for instance, when someone says, like uh I'm most familiar with the enzymes I use, like pectanex to break down pectin.
+
+[10:36] So like there are like pectanex is actually a a whole bunch of different enzymes, of which some are pectinases and some are hemicellulases, and like so there's a bunch of different it's not just like one enzyme, it's a bunch of different enzymes. And even when you have a singular enzyme, which lactase may or may not be, I probably probably is, I don't know. But even when you have one singular enzyme, um what they do is they rate based on the um activity of it. I haven't I haven't looked at it in a long time, but for instance, when you buy uh usually what you do when you buy an enzyme preparation is they're standardized to a certain level of activity. That's how uh like meat glue is sold, for instance, transglutaminase.
+
+[11:18] So what they do is that's only one enzyme, but they standardize it to a certain level of activity so that you can dose it out all the same time. So uh presumably like if you find one brand and stick to it, I've never bought any. I wonder whether monitors pantry guys can can uh carry or have carried any of that, but it's it's uh it's interesting. I also wonder whether they add the lactase before pasteurization to the milk or whether you still have active enzymes in that milk. Be an interesting question.
+
+[11:46] I don't know. If the if they add the enzyme after the pasteurization step, then odds are you still have good enzyme in that milk. And I don't know whether there's enough residual enzymatic activity to uh like bust down more milk or not, you know what I mean? And you wouldn't necessarily want to run a test on your on your girlfriend's GI tract to find out. But um that's an interesting question.
+
+[12:09] I'll I'll try to look into it. Do me a favor, tweet me back. Um next week, I'm actually I won't be here, I'll be in Ireland. So, like if you remember like the week after, like the drop it's per plus the radio station is closed for the fourth. But the um just drop me a a line and I'll try to check out uh on Twitter on cooking issues uh on Twitter, and I'll try to find a supplier of that stuff, and maybe someone in the chat room has a supplier.
+
+[12:33] All right, we'll do thank you. Thank you. All right. So uh yeah, so we have the uh the EC Whipper and the other one that came in is that is that uh now people are anti-coconut uh oil again. It's so crazy, man.
+
+[12:47] I know, that's great. I love it. Uh uh, you know what? You like the thing is I've gone through so many of these cycles in my life. Butter is terrible.
+
+[12:55] You need to eat only margarine. And then they're like, Margarine is terrible. You need to eat only butter. And I'm like, what? Like when you see enough things change, like back and forth, not just change, but go from being the the the bad guy to the good guy to the bad guy to the good guy.
+
+[13:10] It's like just ignore. If you want to use coconut oil because you want a solid fat, then use coconut oil because you want a solid fat that's a vegetable fat, right? Right, Nick? Hold on a second, right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:21] What do you want, Booker? Margarine tastes like cardboard. Uh yes, you know why? Margarine, when margarine goes rancid, which often it does, margarine uh rancid oils taste literally like cardboard. And uh Booker used to make fun of me because he used to always throw margarine in my shopping cart just to just to mess with me.
+
+[13:41] He knows I hate it. He knows it tastes terrible, and he would always buy this one specific brand, Happy Boy. Yeah, the boy is happy because he's cheating you. Yeah, yeah, because he's selling you something that tastes terrible and you're paying money for it, right? Happy boy, huh?
+
+[13:57] Yeah, yeah. The boy is happy because he's like, ooh, I cheated on I cheated a lot of people with my disgusting margarine. That's right. That's right. Well, at least you know people have trained him somewhat well.
+
+[14:08] Um anyways, so uh here's our first question in. Uh this is uh Judy from uh Malden. Uh is there really a bad time to drink a gin and tonic? I used to drink them all the time before I started drinking darker, more bitter things. However, if there's no craft cocktails in sight or kitschy stuff like Blue Hawaii is around, it's my go-to.
+
+[14:27] So I don't order them that often anymore, but tell me if I'm being a jerk. Um I mean, I think it back in the day it was considered like okay, look it. Back in the day, like a very particular sort of like, like hyper, like uh, I don't know, like yacht club kind of a person would be like, so goosh, so goosh, so gooseh. You know what? These days, drink what you want when you want.
+
+[14:51] You know what I mean? What do you think, Nick? I'm having a gin and tonic right now. Yeah, what do you think about old norms though in general, things like that? I mean, it depends what they're based on.
+
+[15:00] In reality, like those kind of norms, I think are based on this old, like pretty like white male English society crap. And pretty much that whole society, like if it got knocked down 30 or 40 or 50 or all pegs, it wouldn't be a problem. No offense. You know what I mean? But it's like, so I I don't think it's a problem to go against that norm.
+
+[15:22] What do you think, Stas? What about like how the Italians have their pair of TV and their DJs TV, like that stuff can't really be messed with, can it? Okay, so here's what I think about that. I think that those the the Italian, that culture is hilarious because they literally if you had a gin and tonic when they were having their I think we've had this discussion, but if you had a gin and tonic while they were having their uh epitv, if you had that, right, they would be like, you're an alcoholic. I'm not even drinking.
+
+[15:52] You know what I mean? Because it's so culturally ingrained that they don't even consider that like to be drinking. They're doing what you do before the meal. And so, like those cultures, I think like um I see like a pretty bright line difference between like uh just like a culture where you're like you go through specific rituals versus a culture where it's so it doesn't seem to me that that culture is a way to distance yourself from somebody else. It's not like we all wear white after a certain you know after a certain day in the summer but before a certain day so that we can prove that we are a certain group of people.
+
+[16:29] I don't see that that the aperitivo culture is like that versus the you know the gin and tana kind of thing. I think is more just like a show whether or not you were part of a certain class or not. And I think all of those cultures pretty much I mean I don't care about them. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[16:44] Um if you hear snickering in the background, that's my son Booker, who cannot help himself. And we have one more caller. I caller, you're on the air. Uh yeah, Dave. Uh Dan, Seattle.
+
+[16:55] How are you doing? Um I am trying to copy Panda Express's beef stir-fry as closely as humanly possible for the simple reason it's like the only protein my younger kid will eat. Well, I have not had it. Well, so what's the what's the problem? First of all, like almost all of the the stuff.
+
+[17:17] So uh I learned a lot about uh Chinese American restaurant cuisine, of which uh Panda Express is a very kind of streamlined uh and you know, often let's be frank, over sugared version of, right? But um I mean, I don't know this particular recipe, but like the recipes, most of the recipes, the mother sauce, quotes quotes, is like cornstarch and water. Like, like and then to that is added flavor. So it's like it's almost the opposite of everything else. You start with a liaison and then you move into the flavor basis.
+
+[17:53] But what's it what's it like? What's in it? Okay, so the whole issue I'm having is I mean, I've got the sauce, I've got the broccoli, I've got this. I'm having a very hard time getting the texture of the beef right. Hmm.
+
+[18:09] And what what is it like? I and I I mean I know the basic Chinese restaurant process is that they're putting it, is it they're marinating it and soy sauce and something, they're putting it in egg white for some period of time, blanching it in oil, and then stir frying it. Uh it depends. So like velveting can work. Right.
+
+[18:34] Right, but the velvet the velveting can sometimes be egg white, sometimes cornstarch. Uh so like, you know, like it the velveting thing, I think really is like to add like a protective layer. Some people also add um basic things to it, like some like bake like baking soda stuff. Um I don't I don't know. Is there anyone Nick, you ever experiment with this stuff?
+
+[19:01] None of that. With velveting. Didn't uh didn't Chango on a velveting tirade once make all you guys learn velveting? No. Uh I've never had the Panda Express one.
+
+[19:10] So uh is it is the meat not squashy enough? Are you looking for like kind of squashy yet overcooked meat? Is that what they have? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's you know, it's certainly overcooked by modernist standards, but it's um but it's not it's not too overcooked, if you know what I'm saying.
+
+[19:28] Right. So I'm I I mean, you know, if you accept it as what it is, it it it's as opposed to what you'd like it to be. I mean it's something that actually works. Right. I mean I mean I've taken fifteen tries of this with different amounts of egg whites and trying to souve it in either in the egg white or trying to souve it, drain it and souve it.
+
+[19:49] Yeah, I mean like the thing is they don't do that. So if you want to imit m imitate what they do, so listen, when I'm going for like really mushy meat, so like like good good meat that's kinda mushy and overcooked is like tandoor style overcooked mushy meat. And the way you do that is with uh acidic marinades, because the acidic stuff turns the meat mushy and you don't notice the mushiness when you got thin strips because it's not enough meat for you to notice that it's mushy, and then when you overcook the outside, it still holds together okay. So that's how you work like um that's how you work like an overcooked piece of chicken in a tandoor and still have it taste good. Um the but I don't think that they're doing an acidic marinade for in in the maybe ginger will also do that to meats, but I don't think that they're doing that there.
+
+[20:34] They're probably just doing some form of like quick velveting, like a boil to get the coating on, which I would bet is like another corn starchy thing on velveting to get that locked out layer on the outside and then the stir fry, uh stir fry afterwards. But I'll look into it. I'll look into it. Do we uh Vitor, do we have anyone in the chat room that's live on uh velveting techniques and mimicking and uh mimicking Pand Express? Also, boatloads of sugar.
+
+[20:59] This kid, I'm just messing with you, but not really. I ordered something there once 'cause uh I was like, I'll try this because we were doing the Chinese restaurant thing. And I was like, literally, I was like, I this tastes like dessert. Like, this is sweet. Is it is the beef dish that they make super sweet?
+
+[21:14] Yeah, uh like like like they're they call it Beijing beef, but it's orange beef. I mean, y yeah, you know, some of their stuff has way too much sugar on it. But in terms of trying to copy it at home in a way that's A, not quite so sugary and B um something that my kids will eat. Um I mean, like I said, I've got something that works for every other stage of this except the texture of the beef. Does the beef have a coating on it?
+
+[21:40] And I've made 15 or 20 semi-scientific tries at this. Alright, well, I'll do I'll do a little more poking around. I'm sure. And uh have you like uh have Googled like uh Panda Express clones? Has anyone tried to clone the recipe?
+
+[21:54] Because a lot of times like you can get pretty close with like an online recipe clone, like Twinkies have good recipe clones. None of the recipe clones seem to be even trying to get their texture-wise. I mean, you I mean, there's 25 recipes out there to copy their sauce, all of which more or less work. But nobody's getting the texture that I can tell. Right.
+
+[22:18] Well, I guarantee these well, maybe they are in large batch. They could probably do sous vide for pasteurization reasons, but they're not doing it for a texture reason. You know what I mean? Um is there a coating on it or no? I i I'm uh I I I I'm morally certain it's velveted with something.
+
+[22:33] Yeah, probably cornstarch, right? Yes, cornstarch. Yeah, I'll look I'll I'll look into it though. I'll look into uh texture of uh Panda Express. What about like freezing if if it is if they're doing larger batches and freezing the meat, can that also affect the texture?
+
+[22:47] Yeah, velvet then freeze and then thaw, you'll get drip loss. It's true. Um it's true. Obviously, the cut is gonna matter too. Um like you almost might want to like get like a like a um a cut.
+
+[23:00] The thing is is like is it shredded or they stay nice pieces? No, the no, it's they're intact, they're intact pieces. I mean they're the the raw slice is probably a quarter inch thick. It comes out a little less than that. I mean, but by the time they cooked it.
+
+[23:16] I mean it's it it's clear clearly pretty clearly sliced on the bias, quarter inch thick. And it looks like meat. It doesn't look like pressure cooked or anything at it. It looks like meat. It looks like meat.
+
+[23:30] I mean I mean it looks like you know, it looks like very classic Chinese restaurant stir-fried beef. Hey, you know what else? You could just jack hard the hell out of it. That's another thing. Just get like a jack hard and jack hard the ever loving hell out of it, and then and then like do a quick velvet and a stir-fry, and that'll pulverize the snot out of it.
+
+[23:50] So then you could use a um, you know, a cut that's got some more structure to it, and then just maybe they jackard it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean try I would try like getting the intact piece, jack carting it to death, slice velvet, and then uh stir fry, maybe in conjunction with like a little like you could try an acidic marinade that'll soften it.
+
+[24:15] Like I say, that's how tandors work. I don't happen to like that texture, but um, you know, it is a texture. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean no, I mean the the combination, the classic tandoor combination produces something that's like generally acceptable, even if it's not ideal.
+
+[24:34] Yeah, yeah. So those guys, yeah, so in a t and I mean, I'm I know much more about how to do tandoor stuff, and in tandoor stuff, the marinades are some combination of yogurt, perhaps citrus, um oil in the marinade, uh uh often ginger, and then whatever your spice base is, but like you know, all of those things together. So even if I'm doing a non uh Indian flavored stuff, I always make sure to have some citrus acid, oil, um uh yogurt, and then um sometimes ginger. So I I always like no matter what ginger I only add if usually if I'm doing some form of Asian because like you know, in a euro flavors, a lot of times ginger can be weird in a in a savory dish, but um yeah, and a little bit of sugar, actually, a little bit of sugar and salt in the in the in the tandoor th thing. Typically, though, when I'm doing marination, I don't know why I do this, maybe because I'm stupid, Nick, maybe, but like what I'll do is is I'll salt the meat like a normal thing, like a nor like I'm salting it, and then I won't add salt to the marinade, and then I'll unless I'm making a lot of marinade, because I'm usually using small amounts of marinade in a vacuum bag, and I think it's easier to get salt on the meat than it is to get salt in the marinade, but it could just be that I'm a moron.
+
+[25:46] I don't know. I don't know. But anyway, so but uh give it give those things a shot, and also I'll look into it and see what next time we come back in a couple weeks, I'll see if I have any more information on it. Thank you very much. Alrighty.
+
+[25:58] Um okay. And then uh what do we got here? We got uh this is Dave Nastasia et al. from Kieran. I recently bought a pasture raised pasture raised pig uh and opted into keeping all the scraps in addition to the meat.
+
+[26:13] As part of this, I was wondering if it's possible to approximate tankatsu broth with just bones and skin. Hmm. What do you think, Nick? You've you've probably made a boat ton of tankatsu broth over there. Didn't they didn't used to do that?
+
+[26:24] Some you never made what do you just bought it from noodle bar? That's a different restaurant. You didn't never serve a ramen based thing ever? You never had one freaking soup at Sambar, not one? That would be that would be the noodle bar, Dave.
+
+[26:36] And you never did a stuff, you never stodged over there even for a day and a half. No, that's the noodle bar. You know what? You know what? Bad person, dude.
+
+[26:45] Who? You. Why am I a bad person? I don't remember this. Don't remember what?
+
+[26:49] Nick's I know where Nick worked. I just find it absurd that uh that at Sambar that they didn't even once as an homage situation make a ramen broth. Like ever. It like never came up. They're like, this is not a skill we need to have.
+
+[27:08] Like it's like, you know what I mean? There's a noodle bar just down the block. There's no need to compete. We have other noodles and other broths, but not tonkatsu broth. What kind of broth do you make?
+
+[27:20] There's none on right now, but you won't even admit to like making a broth at all. Alright. You enjoy just throwing like massive amounts of pork into your combi oven. That's all you like to do is throw massive amounts of pork into your combi oven. How much pork did you guys cook in that combi oven every day?
+
+[27:37] Or was it only when you're doing bow sump? No, you had it for the buns. Yeah. How much pork do you think goes through that combi oven? You have the full person-sized combi oven, right?
+
+[27:47] You could put a cook in your combi oven. I could put a couple of cooks in there. Yeah. Um, probably like 120 to 180 pounds of pork belly every week. Oh, that's not as much as I thought.
+
+[27:59] Yeah, all right. Um anyway, uh, if it's possible to approximate tonkatsu broth with just bones and skin. In my head, I feel like the bones would provide a good amount of flavor while the skin could provide body, but that's all theoretical at this point. Additionally, a while back you mentioned that there's good porky and bad porky with regards to skin. Nick, were you there when we were making the uh the chicharones at the French culinary?
+
+[28:21] I think so. Yeah. Do you remember how nasty that smelled when you're boiling the skin? I don't know like the beaver ones. The beaver ones at least smelled like beaver.
+
+[28:30] You know what I mean? But like the uh just smelled real funk. Yes, like that like pork skin. I kind of don't mind it that much, but it's very potent. Let me ask you this.
+
+[28:41] When you were having your shift drink after work, would you want the beer as it came up to your lips to smell like the like the pork skin pot? No. No. You would not. Yeah, and like in other words, you can tolerate it when it's in the kitchen, but it's not a smell you want hanging around.
+
+[28:54] Like salmon skin. Like salmon skin and like scam salmon bones. Like, it's okay when you're butchering them. When you're eating them, but you don't want that on your hands all the time, do you? No.
+
+[29:05] No. Uh anyway, good porky and bad porky with regards to skin. So do you think this would contribute adversely to flavor? And then uh lastly, would a pressure cooker be a good option for making this broth? The uh this adaption, which is uh on the web, so you can't see it because you're listening to a podcast, uh, J.
+
+[29:19] Kenji Lopez Alt's Tonkatsu broth recipe uses lecithin, which I know you're not a huge fan of to help emulsify the finished product, uh, so I might give that a try. Uh finally, there's lots of skin in this delivery, pounds and pounds of it. Any suggestion on how else to use it? Twenty pounds of pork rinds doesn't sound like a reasonable option. There, you are wrong.
+
+[29:37] This is where you have made your largest error. Twenty pounds of uh because you gotta remember, you're thinking of twenty pounds of the skin as being that's like the weight of the chicharron, but you're gonna get rid of a lot of like wit weight out of that. You're gonna render out a lot of the fat and all that. So like the actual weight of the of the finished rinds are gonna be a lot lower. And and they last a uh uh uh uh uh long time in pre-fry zone.
+
+[29:59] Uh uh. Yeah, yeah, that's booked it with this echo. Uh they last a long time in pre-fry mode. So you can do them and then you mean a long time. Yes, yes.
+
+[30:15] Um, so anyways, so that's not uh too much. Uh any suggestions how else to use it? Um I might try my hand at Cotokino, but any suggestions are welcome. So, pig skin. So, like some classic pig skin dishes are like pig skin.
+
+[30:28] You ready for the uh for the jersey pronunciation? Yes. Brajo. A brajole, yeah. Like so now all the so now all of the um all of the uh people make their brajole with meat, but like originally I think it would like skin and like he'd roll it up and you cook it in the broth, good, right?
+
+[30:48] Good. Although my so my stepfather used to make something with skin or have something made with skin called, I don't even know what it is. He because he he has an even weirder, it's his English speaking pronunciation of his like maiden aunts, like crazy American, but like one generation removed like Southern Italian, right? So who knows what it actually is? Gorda, gordiga, gordiga.
+
+[31:14] He was like, that's also like a rolled up skin thing. Gorda. Do you have any like you speak Italian? Does that make any sense at all? I don't know.
+
+[31:21] Ask some sort of Boston person. Um but yeah, Codacino is good. Um here's what I'm gonna say. I would make a whole bunch of pork rinds, but as for the broth, I mean, look, we bought really bad pork skin. It was like the pork skin that had been ripped off of like the 12th quality pigs and then like thrown into uh a case and frozen, and then like, you know, it was always like, you know how you ever been around a professional meat delivery area where like the guy throws the meat uh on the ground outside and it's thawing into the disgusting New York City sidewalks, and then they stack other stuff on top of it.
+
+[31:59] And they always put the low item crappy stuff, like the cheap stuff, if they're smart, like on the bottom, and that's what everything's dripping into it. That's where the pork skin goes in the delivery on the hand truck. You know what I'm talking about, Nick? That's the bottom of the totem pole. They're the bottom of that of that of that totem pole of nastiness.
+
+[32:15] Now, when you're boiling those skins, they're uh completely uh they're completely nasty. They're completely nasty. They smell nasty. Now, maybe that nastiness would go away, but often I I'm not a huge fan of completely, I mean, maybe you could skim the hell out of it or blanch it once to get rid of that initial funk. I would blanch it once, get rid of it, and then and then put it in.
+
+[32:38] I mean, uh uh Kenji's uh tonkatsu recipe is like has like a lot of scrubbing of the bones anyway to get rid of the the blood and everything. Because like unround use roasted pork because he doesn't want it, he wants it to be blonde, he doesn't want it to be dark. So he uses unroasted pork. I find unroasted or uncooked pork, like unless you do something to rinse away stuff or to blanch it out, is na has like a nasty uh top note on the on the broth. So you need to do some form of thing like that with the skin, and then maybe it would gonna work out.
+
+[33:07] I don't think it's gonna add a lot of flavor. I think it's gonna add a lot of gelatin, and a lot of people just add gelatin. Like, so like a lot of people, if there's not enough body in their broth, you know, like the purists are like, me, me, me, me, me. But they just throw gelatin in, and like, you know, as far as you know, that's then the end consumer's not gonna know the difference. Now, on the pressure cooker and the lecithin, the idea of the tonkatsu broth is it's exactly uh opposite of what you attempt to do in uh European style broth is you're trying to emulsify all the stuff that's coming out into it.
+
+[33:38] And so for that, typically you need a rolling boil, which is why Kenji says that a pressure cooker doesn't work. So, this other person that you talk about used his recipe but then pulled it out and then uh blitzed it with lecithin uh to emulsify it. It may or may not work, it may or may not taste the same. I don't know. A lot of times when things are done in process, they taste differently from if you do it one way and then just try to blend the stuff together at the end.
+
+[34:03] So it might be different. But here's a test that no one's run. Because pre- I think pressure cooker stocks taste can taste better, right? Can taste worse, can taste better. I've written many thousands of words on this on the on the cooking issues blog years ago, and I haven't done any new experiments.
+
+[34:16] So if I said anything now, it's it's basically just my distant memory of doing the test years ago. So I'm not even gonna try to like comment on that. But here's what's not tested. Inside of a pressure cooker, there is very little boiling. Why?
+
+[34:29] Because it's already at pressure and it's sealed. So once it comes up to a boil and pressurizes your container, it's no longer gonna boil. But if you were to sit there and press the button while you were cooking, so that it and I know venting is bad for the in general, long-term venting is bad for the aroma of the and flavor of the stock, according to my old test. But it might be interesting on a tankatsu broth to just walk up every like three minutes, let's say, and go and have it like just boil like a lunatic because it boils so violently when you hit that button because all of a sudden you're going from it being like at the boiling point to being like wildly hotter than the boiling points. You'll get super violent bubbling with no chance of scorching, so it's pretty cool.
+
+[35:15] So like I would say I would run a quick tonkatsu test in a pressure cooker with occasional venting to emulsify it and see whether or not you can get a decent result that away. Do you think you think that's it's worth a shot, right, Nick? If if you want to keep going and pushing the vent every three minutes if you have that much time on your hands? Well, presumably you're still cooking other stuff. Presumably you're still cooking.
+
+[35:40] So it's just well, maybe this isn't in a in like a restaurant kitchen, maybe it's just like a home kitchen. Yeah, but like when was the last time when I'm pressing do you have that much time to just every three minutes just go and push this thing? Well, like, okay, so when I'm usually if I'm pressure cooking stock, it means I've broken down whatever meat I'm gonna use, and then I'm working on other stuff. I'm working on other prep, and so you get that stock going because you know you're eventually gonna have to cool it, strain it, adjust it, do all that. So you the stock gets done early.
+
+[36:06] So there's usually prep work to do while it's on the stove. And like, so like if you sit there, you're like chaka chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, tackle with your carrots, although you have to have some carrots in a stock or you're a bad person. You walk over and go back, check it, check it, check it check, it check it, check it. No? Those are the sounds of the kitchen.
+
+[36:27] If for those of you that didn't know. Check, check, check. Are you guys were you guys totally uh anal about the the no noise with the knife, or you guys noisy knife people? Or do you not care? Do you not get I don't I don't really care.
+
+[36:39] You don't care? You're not like you're not like you're hitting the board too hard with your knife, you're a tool. Or you know, like uh if it sounds like it's wrong, then obviously I'm gonna go correct that. But do you like those? You know those people, those weirdos who sit there and like slice in silence?
+
+[36:52] It's takes takes too long to slice in silence. It depends on where you're working on it. To put the exact amount of force into your knife such that it makes no noise when it when it goes through your object. A waste of my life, no? What do you think?
+
+[37:04] It depends on where you're working. How loud are you? I think I'm average. I don't know. I never really thought about it.
+
+[37:11] I mean, you we all hate that the check check check chuck check. We hate that person. You make fun of them, make them stand in the corner with like a towel around their head? That's not really my jam. Oh.
+
+[37:21] How do you how did you work there so long if that's not your jam? Nick was the Nick was the what was your title over there back when you were there? Chef de cuisine. Chef de cuisine at Sambar. Famously Rough Kitchen.
+
+[37:32] Famously rough kitchen. So call me. We're gonna take a break. We'll call back with your uh ex-famously rough kitchen people. Uh I'll be back in a minute with cooking issues.
+
+[37:40] Pigskin spaghetti. Look that up. Oh Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The bran, or the rough age, makes up about 14% of the whole grain.
+
+[38:05] It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. Hi, I'm Sam Ben Ruby, host of the Grape Nation on Heritage Radio Network. Tune in every Wednesday at 6 p.m.
+
+[38:26] to hear some of the best people on wine tell you about what's going on in the world of wine. Support my show and all of Heritage Radio Network's programming. Go to Heritage Radion Network.org and click on the beating heart to donate. And we're back. So Nick's is saying uh pig skin uh spaghetti.
+
+[38:54] So let me tell me about some pig skin spaghetti. Um this is something that I saw when I worked for Chris, a Chris Costantino. I'm sure he would be the pig skin spaghetti man. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:03] But you're saying it's hard to pick up because it breaks. Once you've cooked the skin, it gelatinizes and it's difficult to deal with. So I'll say this. I mean, I don't know how he does it, but like when you let it cool down all the way, if you gelatinize your pig skin and then let it cool all the way, it gets kind of tough again. I wonder whether he then you can slice it and handle it.
+
+[39:22] Yeah, it's after it's cooled. It's cool. Right. And then you can probably re-therm it and have it hold as long as you don't re-therm it all the way. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:32] As long as you don't melt 100% melt it all the way, you could probably re-therm it, no? Um or was it break like hell on the plate? Was it just I mean, you can still get it to look like noodles on the plate. It's just you'd be very quick if like you're picking up a little bit of broth or like a little bit of butter or whatever. Like last minute, everything gets tossed together, just needs to get warmed through, and then you put it on the plate.
+
+[39:52] So you toss it with the hot stuff, and then do you do like a quick warm like in the sally or like in an oven and out, or just like in the pan, just like broth and butter, like chucka chaka chaka. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when Nick comes, we bring sounds of the kitchen. That's his next album, Nick Wong's next album, Sounds of the Kitchen.
+
+[40:09] It's my debut. Yeah, yeah. But it's your debut uh when you when you drop in it. Check for that drop uh late 2018. Yeah, late 2018.
+
+[40:16] Sounds like Nick Wong, sounds of the kitchen. And you can do it like it's like uh across different parts of the country. You could do like a Milpitas Kitchen, you do like your New York kitchen. Never milpitas. Milpetis.
+
+[40:27] Maybe you can tell your story now. I will tell the story towards the end. I have some stuff I have to get through. We had another update uh on uh a while ago. People were calling in about the uh Ayu and Ishiri.
+
+[40:36] The Ayu is the sweet fish sauce, uh Japanese fish sauce, and the ishiri is the uh the one that I get the squid gut sauce, also from Japan from uh in uh Ishikawa, and uh and it is in fact available at Mutual Trading in Los Angeles. So you can call ahead, go in there, and they're in stock. You get them. They're the my favorite, probably fish sauces. Did you guys ever stock that stuff?
+
+[40:57] You had it when we used to work with it at the French culinary. They're my favorite fish sauces, like by a lot. I can check it out. By Mucho. Anyway.
+
+[41:05] Uh all right. So we had a follow-up from uh poor guy in Montana. Remember that last week, Sas? So poor guy in Montana tried to use his Hobart uh clone as a pasta extruder. And actually, it's the pasta, like it looked pretty good.
+
+[41:25] You know that, like uh looks disgusting. It looks great. What's wrong with you? Don't you like micro that's not micro, that's macro. You don't like those like southern, those like southern Italian, like those like Sicilian or like even those like Sardinian pastas that have all that like ropey stuff coming off of them.
+
+[41:41] Yeah. They're such sauce magnets. They're awesome. I love that texture. Oh man, it got it went away.
+
+[41:48] But it looked you know what I'm talking about. You know that like it looks like ripped up on the edges? And that's from going through the wide dye that on uh on the thing. But anyway, uh so what happened was um I tried making pasta in the Hobart. Mixer was fine, it's a beast.
+
+[42:01] The Chinese grinder attachment did not like it so much, broke the retaining pin for the grinder plate. Did make some kind of cool looking noodles. Oh, there it is. They got twit twisted and rotated. What do you think, Nick?
+
+[42:10] I like that look. Like it catches sauce like a mother. If you dry it down a little bit and like and then like cook it off and like it catches sauce like there's nobody's business. I can tell you it'd be good for catching sauce. It just looks very unappealing.
+
+[42:14] Yes. It's just a close-up picture. You guys are low quality individuals. You guys both like if I'm why we're on your show, Dave. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[42:27] My shirts are on the way, by the way. I ordered my shirts, but they haven't arrived yet. Otherwise, I'd be wearing it right now. Booker didn't order Dax order as a low-quality individual shirt. What shirt?
+
+[42:36] The low quality individual shirt. Oh imagine when people see me with that. Yeah, well, you know, I'll be wearing it, so that that's fine. Anyway, so I like that kind of uh you guys can't see it, but you know what it looks like, people? You ever seen a super magnified human hair?
+
+[42:54] Yeah. Like it looks like a super magnified human hair. You know what I'm saying? Like under a micron electroscope. Yeah, uh electron microscope.
+
+[43:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it looks like it looks like that, which is good for catching sauce, just like your hair is. Great for catching sauce. Um, all right. So we have uh let me see, got a basic fit got a basic physics question.
+
+[43:13] This is in from Harlan in DC, uh, that I'm too dumb to figure out. When I use my cheap hardware store infrared thermometer to measure the surface temperature of fluids, I find that it's a reasonable approximation of the reading I get from a probe thermometer deep in the same environment, but obtained with less fuss. Chiefly, this is how I check my coffee water on the range while stumbling around in the dark each morning. But when I try the same technique on a dry pan, I get wildly low readings. For instance, a skillet may read 150 degrees pointing the thermometer at the dry cooking surface.
+
+[43:42] However, after the oil is added, the surface of the oil may read 275 degrees within seconds. My intuition here is that if I were to test the surface of uh of the dry pan with my hand, my brain would not read the temperature as a mere 150. What gives? Thanks, Harlan. Okay, you're dealing with an emissivity problem.
+
+[43:58] So the way infrared thermometers work is they measure the amount of um amount of uh wavelength of light coming off of it uh off the object in a particular wavelength. And I forget exactly what it is somewhere in the infrared. But every object, every like material has a different, what's called emissivity. And if that emissivity is different, you're gonna get wildly different reading. So it's calibrated for a particular temperature at a particular emissivity.
+
+[44:23] And this is another reason why. So like most things in our in our life uh are that we measure for cooking are between 0.9 and and like 0.96, 0.98. So one being a like black, black, black like piece of construction paper, black. Like that's one, right? And zero is like nothing comes out, it's perfectly reflective, it doesn't do anything, right?
+
+[44:45] Uh so the problem is is that water, oil, all that is like 0.9, so it's very close to one. And they all measure relatively accurately, they're gonna be a little bit different, but once you measure a surface, it will always measure that one the same way because the emissivity is, you know, it stays the same on the surface from time to time. And by the way, you can get fancy, fancy pants uh IR thermometers where you can actually change the emissivity of the uh reading so that it'll correct for the temperature, but I don't know anyone that actually does that. Uh problem is is that like polished aluminum, polished copper, anything like this has very low emissivity. So, like if like water uh is above 0.9 and oils like 0.95, then like aluminum pan is like 0.2, 0.4.
+
+[45:31] You know what I mean? Like lower, like much lower. And so, like, even a relatively dirty aluminum pan is still a lot lower emissivity than um than most foods that we do. And so it's gonna read wildly different. So when you're testing pans, you can uh put a strip of uh like like heat proof tape down.
+
+[45:50] When I used to do it, I used to like quickly just paint some stuff uh on it that I knew I could wipe off that was matte and that you could see it, but you cannot register the uh temperature of a bare metal pan accurately with an infrared thermometer, which can't be done. Uh another thing that people make mistake with the thermometer, and Nick, you've seen this. How many times have you seen this? Someone try holds a thermometer like five feet from what they're trying to measure, and they pull the trigger, and they think that the laser dot is telling them what the temperature is. No.
+
+[46:16] Like what happens is every thermometer and most of them have a picture on the side of a cone, and that cone, the aspect ratio is kind of what's being read. And so you have to imagine in your mind a cone coming out of your thermometer. So usually if you want it accurate, you have to get up on it. Like I have some very narrow, uh, very narrow spot ones that are very narrow, but most aren't. Most are pretty wide, and so you gotta get uh closer to your object than you think.
+
+[46:43] And if you're not, then it's just gonna average whatever it's inside that cone that it's reading. So there you go. Two mistakes people make with infrared thermometers. Uh the other mistake is to hand it to your kids and have them run around flashing lasers in people's eyes. That's the other mistake.
+
+[46:59] All right. Um okay. So we got let's see what else we got here. Uh here's a weird one. I didn't have time to analyze this one.
+
+[47:08] So see what you think, Nick. I'm a mathematician and was recently, this is from Tyler, and was recently surprised to find a mushroom recipe section on a colleague's professional web page. I am perplexed because this is uh called a mushroom dough, a mushroom pie, but it doesn't make any sense to him. So you want it, we're gonna analyze it. You ready, Nick?
+
+[47:26] Okay. All right. So uh this is uh Yuna's mushroom pie for the dough. Four tablespoons of kefir. All right.
+
+[47:34] You're right with that. Four tablespoons of kefir, four tablespoons mayonnaise. Okay, you ready? All right. Two eggs.
+
+[47:46] Alright, just sinking in. Half teaspoon soda, baking soda, right? Then four big tablespoons of flour. Now, why the hell are you measuring four big tablespoons of flour? Once you're on four, then you're already at like, you're already over a quarter cup.
+
+[48:02] And then big, I mean, what does that mean? Are we talking like now? Are we like, is this really like eight tablespoons? Is this like a half cup? Is this like, this is why you should only measure in grams.
+
+[48:12] This is an absurd measurement. Like, like if one tablespoon big, then you just say, you know what? Four teaspoons. You know what I mean? Or like give a gram measurement.
+
+[48:20] But like three, three big four big tablespoons is exactly the kind of measurement that makes me want to punch myself in the face. It's like, I just like it drives me nuts. What do you think, Nick? I also would like to punch you in the face. There you go.
+
+[48:32] Because of this or for multiple reasons. This is not helping. Yeah, it's not helping. Not helping. Uh and then check this.
+
+[48:39] Four big tablespoons of flour, yet 200 grams of cheese cheese, e.g., mozzarella. Right? Okay. Then you fry a pound of mushrooms, one or two onions in oil, add spices. One or two onions.
+
+[48:53] One or two. One or two. Okay. Uh, mix the mushrooms into the dough, and bake 30 or 40 minutes until a nice crust is formed. What do you think about this, Nick?
+
+[49:02] I don't I can't imagine what you're making a goopy, relatively loose dough with grains, just enough flour to hold it together, and then you're mixing this mushroom product into it. Mushroom, presumably, as it bakes, stays at its own texture, which is m meaty but tender enough to not be too tough. And so I'm thinking you have to me this sounds like like an overly bound haggis. Mushroom haggis. It's like an overly bound mushroom haggis and not really a dough, right?
+
+[49:36] Like a pudding. Yeah, more like a yeah. Like a hard pudding, like like a spotted dick or something like this in terms of its ratios. You know what I mean? What do you think?
+
+[49:48] I'm looking at Nastasia's face for the first time. What do you think? I I looked it up when I read this. See if what it looked like. And what it looked like.
+
+[49:56] I couldn't find any pictures of the finished. But like what do you what is your feeling on it? If someone said, hey Stas, I'm glad you're coming over. Here's what we're making. What would you do?
+
+[50:05] It almost sounds like someone like you could just open up a can of like cream and mushroom soup and just put it into a pan and throw that in the oven. I'm gonna make this thing. Just like put a little bit of flour in it. I'm not gonna make this right now because I I'm I'm traveling, you know, pretty soon, but I'm gonna make this dang thing. I'm gonna see what's going on.
+
+[50:21] You know what this is crying for sauce? This sucker wants a sauce. It feels like it feels like it wants to be, yeah, like a pudding or almost like a scrapple or like a meatloafy kind of a thing. You know what I mean? That's what it feels like.
+
+[50:35] Can like but pie? Like a cage. But it doesn't smell like a quiche. Not enough eggs to be quichy. Everybody likes a quiche.
+
+[50:43] But there's not even like a crust or there's no because everything just gets mixed together, right? What's your favorite pie that's not a pie? Frito pie. Oh. Frito pie.
+
+[50:56] Very strong. Yeah. What about you, Stas? I don't know. Do you not like frito Pie?
+
+[50:59] Is that just the bag with the That's Frito Pie in a bag? But like you don't have to have it in a bag. I don't think I've ever had it. What? God damn it.
+
+[51:08] Can you tell your story now? Vitor, what about you? You a Frito Pie fan? Um I haven't tried it. What my God.
+
+[51:16] Do you agree that Fritos are an incredibly delicious snack product? They are incredibly delicious snack product. They are, right? They're terrific. Um anyway.
+
+[51:25] Uh we also had uh someone write in. This is uh Jeff Heaton from Atlanta, Georgia. Uh I've been listening for a while, uh, but never had a question. Uh I do, however, have a submission for the non-existent enemies of quality t-shirt contest. We do actually have an enemy of quality t-shirt now, along with a low-quality individual uh shirt.
+
+[51:45] Uh but um so the the the shirt that uh Jeff made, it's kind of cool. Here we think, Nick, it says enemies of quality, and it's got an exploding tomato behind an open fridge with a tomato in it. Now there is recent, i.e. the past couple of years, arguments with between Daniel Gritzer and the rest of the world on whether or not, in fact, putting tomatoes into your fridge makes you an enemy of quality. And I think at this point it's very complicated, but I do like your tomato enemy of quality t-shirt.
+
+[52:16] And so, you know, look, we can we can make it, we can add it to our Shopify. Like, we have a Shopify. What's it called, Stas? What's the what was it called? I don't know.
+
+[52:26] I should look it up. But anyway, you can buy your enemy of quality t-shirt. You could buy your uh low-quality individual t-shirt, which is one I'm gonna be wearing. I hope it comes by the time I'm traveling, because I want to travel around Ireland wearing an enemy of quality t-shirt, because who doesn't? Um also quick update on the spinzall.
+
+[52:44] I'm almost done with the user manual, and we're still on track spins, all people, so it's looking good. Have you seen the new one? I've not seen any of them.com. Yeah. So, anyways.
+
+[52:54] Alright, uh, oh, one more thing before I tell my story. Nastassi, you're gonna enjoy this. There's a I got you you have the news feeds that come through on your phone, right? So, like, check this out. What?
+
+[53:03] I think I saw it. Which one? Did you post something? Oh no, that's a different one. Wait, which one which one you're doing?
+
+[53:07] I don't remember what it is. Oh, uh check this out. So there's a recent study. The question is if you die and no one finds your body, is your dog gonna eat your face? Yes.
+
+[53:20] Answer, yes. Yes, dog is gonna eat your face. Dog will eat your face. But here's what's interesting it doesn't mean that they don't love you, because in the wild, a dog would eat your stomach. It would rip out your insides and eat your soft organs first.
+
+[53:35] But pet dogs, by the way, tend to eat more of their owners than cats do. Although I do know someone who a cat ate their fingertip once. They chopped off their finger in the studio tip, and the cat was like nom nom nom nom nom. And then they couldn't get it back, couldn't reattach it. But the um yeah, the dogs end up just like nibbling part of your face off and then not finishing it.
+
+[53:54] And my do they eat the rest of your body? No. Do they go for the eyes? Because the eyes are soft? No, they I think they're just trying to lick you awake, and it turns out you're dead.
+
+[54:03] So they just like are like, mmm, and then they kind of nip at you, and then they're like, okay, that's kind of tasty. And then they like take some. But my point is, why not? I don't feel bad about that. Do you feel bad about that?
+
+[54:14] No one's ever gonna find you. I mean, but like people are now worried about it. People are like, What this is a thing, this is our like published that people are worried about. Who cares? Who cares?
+
+[54:22] Like, if you're gone, you're gone. You know, I hope I'm delicious. Like, I hope I'm tender and delicious for my dog. You know what I mean? Yeah, this is why I don't exercise because I want to stay tender and delicious so that my dogs can have a good last meal if I happen to go when I'm alone with them.
+
+[54:37] Speaking of dogs, this is the story Nastasia wants me uh to tell. Ready for this? Yes. Okay. So I have uh two dogs Major, who's a lab, and Watson, who's like a little like terterior mutt thing, right?
+
+[54:51] That you know, and Watson's like a crazy little dog. So I'm getting ready to go to China a couple weeks ago and uh for the spinz all, right? So literally I'm packed, I'm dressed, I got I always wear overco I always wear like a jacket when I'm on a plane, so I can take everything out of my pocket and throw it in my jacket and throw the jacket in the bin and go. So I got everything, I'm ready to go. Last thing I have to do before I go is walk the dogs, and then uh I'm I'm uh about to head out to the airport.
+
+[55:16] So uh I'm like, Booker, Dax, put the dog's leashes on. They put the dog's leashes on. Somehow the door gets left open. I'm like, Where's Watson? Where's Watson?
+
+[55:26] Where's Watson? And then I run outside, Watson's not in the hallway, he's gone. So I run down I live in an apartment building. So I run downstairs. Oh, by the way, you have to understand what the Sabbath elevator is.
+
+[55:38] So for those of you that don't live in uh New York City or never been in a New York City apartment, so if you live in a building that has uh like a orthodox Jewish community, if uh the Orthodox Jewish uh community cannot touch, cannot activate electric buttons, one of the many things they cannot do on the Sabbath. So from Friday night until Saturday at sundown, like all of the elevator like one of the elevators of the two open and shut on all the floors. They open and shut on every floor. This way, if you're, you know, if your legs, if you're tired, or if you're older and firm, have a you know, your handy, whatever, whatever you have a problem, you can just walk into the elevator and it'll take you to your floor without pushing a button. It's called a Sabbath elevator.
+
+[56:17] So uh anyway, so like it happens to be a freaking Saturday morning, and so the Sabbath elevator is running, so I'm like, oh my god, Watson went in the Sabbath elevator. So I run downstairs to the security guard. I'm like, oh security guard, uh, do you see my dog in the in the elevator? And he's looking at the at the at the you know security screens. Nope.
+
+[56:36] I'm like, what? And so then I run back upstairs, run upstairs, and I'm like, and then as I run upstairs, my wife Jen is in the hallway. She just goes, ah, points up and points at the at the at the elevator, and all I see is Watson's leash dangling from the top of the closed elevator. So it's like, it's like you see closed elevator doors, and the leash is dangling down. I'm like, I'm like, he's dead!
+
+[57:00] He's dead! So I run downstairs, and somehow I'm like, okay, look, I know he's not in the elevator, right? Because we looked at the security footage, right? But somehow his leash is on top. So my rattled brain, because you're not trained to think logically, like when you're all freaked out, right?
+
+[57:15] I'm like, he's on top of the elevator. So I had him recall the elevator. I'm trying to like jam the door open because it won't stop. I'm like cursing and screaming, dropping F-bombs, and then trying to like chin up to yell up to Watson, who I somehow think is on top of the elevator. By this time the manager has showed up, he's like, dude, there's no there's no possible way that he's on top of the elevator.
+
+[57:35] How's he gonna get there? I was like, you're right. There's no possible way he's on top of the elevator. So I'm like, but I'm assuming he's decapitated, he's dead. I'm like, he's not in the elevator.
+
+[57:44] Why is there no bloody like pile of dog with its head ripped off in the in the elevator? And what the hell? So I so I'm like, oh my god. So I just run to every floor in the building, like one after another. By the time I get up to like the eighth floor, seven, seven, Watson runs out, and he's there, and he's fine.
+
+[57:59] Here's what happened. This crazy little dog, the door shut, and the thing starts going and ripping his head off. And so he's like and he bit through his leash. Oh. He bit through his leash in like two seconds flat.
+
+[58:17] Or the leash could have snapped. But how's it gonna snap? He bit through that thing. He's done it before. He bit through the leash like this, and then that was it.
+
+[58:26] He was fine. And but here's what I'm thinking. Here's the upshot of it. So what if he had been dead? Then what?
+
+[58:31] Then I would have cried. Yes, but I mean I still would have had to go to China. I'd still have to go to China right away. Not in an hour. I only had like 10 minutes.
+
+[58:40] I was about to go to China because going to China would not have made the dog less dead. And yet it would have been a horribly insensitive. And yet if I had done that, I would have thrown off the production schedule for everybody's spinzall. What would you have done, Nick? Just gotta go to China.
+
+[58:53] Gotta go to China. Now Nastasia thinks I'm a bad guy. Nastassi is like, no, I would not go to China. I would be devastated if I think you'd have to. What if I went to China or just in general?
+
+[59:02] If Watson did. Yeah, but would you need me to be there? Well, of course, I would need you to be at Watson's funeral if he had one. All right, listen, happy Fourth of July, people. I'll be back in two weeks with cooking issues.
+
+[59:30] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[59:50] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:00:15] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is sponsored by Bob's Red Mill. With natural foods, they support organic, vegan, paleo, and gluten-free lifestyles. Learn more about their commitment to good food for all at Bob'sRedmill.com/slash podcast. Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We are a member supported nonprofit food radio station.
+
+[0:26] That means that every single thing we do, from broadcasting 35 weekly shows for free, to bringing you exclusive content from sold-out food events across the country to offering scholarships to high school students is only possible thanks to the support of our loyal members. And we want you to join the club. Become a member during our 2017 summer drive to get access to sweet swag and pledge your support to the world's only food radio station. Visit Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate to become a member now. Brooklyn.
+
+[1:24] And we are back after a two-week hiatus because of random crap. I was in uh where was I? I was in Dublin. I was in China working on spinzalls, but uh we're back and we have as usual Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[1:35] Good. Yeah, I noticed that uh you have your bike helmet and it's hot as hell out of here. Now I went to Union Square in the night. Oh, I was gonna say, but still, I mean, like, the only reason to bike in this weather is because you want to increase your hatred for mankind. To bike in New York.
+
+[1:49] I mean, like to bike in New York City in this weather, I'm fine with it, right? I mean it's fine. Except for like every second on the bike. In other words, your your your gas tank of hatred must have been damn near empty. So for you to like get on the bike to top up that much hatred.
+
+[2:05] You know what I mean? Maybe I'm sure that at lunchtime, I'm sure at lunchtime I'll uh I'll I'll be you know treated to some of the classic Nastasia invective, right? Yeah, no, I went slow. Still it's not like riding the subway lowers that hatred either. Right, that's true.
+
+[2:22] Oh my gosh, especially these days. And in the booth, we got Dave, how you doing? What up, good? So uh Nastasia and I have a question. So there's a uh there's a relatively new Heritage Radio Network t-shirt over here.
+
+[2:32] It says Heritage Radio Network, food radio since 2009. It's got a cow skull and like some sort of Star Wars like uh X-Wing Fighter targeting grid. Yep. So uh I like it. Nastasia doesn't understand it, so she wants yeah, she wants you to under explain this t shirt.
+
+[2:50] What uh what don't you understand? Like what's with the cow head, what's with the grid, what's with it together? It's just we're all of those things. You're a grid? I don't know, man.
+
+[3:03] I like it though. I don't know, I think it's just a cool design. I don't think there was any real uh purpose behind it. So how do people how do people get their hands on on this if they want it? Well, if you go to Heritage Radio Network.org backslash donate, you can become a member today and get a t shirt like that.
+
+[3:19] Yeah, nice. Nice, I like that. Uh the Tron aesthetic. Oh, that's it, the Citron aesthetic. You know what?
+
+[3:26] You know what the thing is? Uh I was having this discussion with uh Jack Shram, who is, you know, he's been on the show before. He's the uh was the head bartender at Booker and Dax, and we're discussing the merits and demerits of having uh uh you know old school arcade games at at bars. What do you what are your thoughts, Dave? What are your thoughts on old school arcade games?
+
+[3:45] They're great. Why why wouldn't you want to have that? Well, it's a different vibe. It's a different vibe. I don't think you should have them because it's too hipster, but what you should have is the log.
+
+[3:54] Wait, hold on. Too hipster, that's not a reason. Like what does that mean? It's like I mean, I am I a hipster? No.
+
+[4:00] Do I like them? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, of course. I mean I grew up with it, but like doesn't have the log and the nail game. I'm not allowed to have the log and the nail game.
+
+[4:06] Everybody okay, so for those of you that don't know, I mean, I we've talked about it on the show probably a million times. I don't know. But there's a game that Nastasi and I played. Against Peter and we kicked his butt. Yes, Peter, Peter Kim, favorite favorite object of derision here on the show.
+
+[4:20] Uh we love that. I mean, like, look, you know what I mean. He's love him. Love him. Yeah, uh, so the the issue is is that we were driving up from um from what was it, Chicago we flew into?
+
+[4:32] Yeah. Chicago to uh Madison, Wisconsin to visit with Johnny Hunter, friend of the show and uh, you know, the Underground Meats Collective back in the day. And we stopped at this uh German place in Milwaukee that had the log game. Don Lee went back there recently and got me a t shirt. Uh you see my t-shirt, right?
+
+[4:49] My log game t shirt. So anyway, they give you an old cut masonry, you know, uh uh sorry, uh cut nail, steel uh nail, like this big triangle one, and then you have to knock it into the into this big old stump, and whoever takes the longest to knock it in, basically the most number of blows to knock it in, they buy the next round of drinks. Yeah, anyway. I'm not gonna say that Peter was trounced, but he was but he was completely trounced. But the the thing about it is is that like I was like, I want one of those, but then everyone's like, you can't do that in New York.
+
+[5:20] Because if you hit the first of all, people are drinking, and if you hit the nail even a little bit wrong, a nail goes flying across the room. Like flying across the room. That's a good point. What? How do they have one?
+
+[5:31] I guess in Milwaukee, like people don't sue each other. I mean it's more of like a an old style of the. Right. I mean, I imagine like, look, everybody knows each other, right? I mean, this is the kind of place where people have their names on their mugs behind the counter behind the bar.
+
+[5:47] So it's like, I imagine that if anyone like if you and I went there and hit ourselves in the eye with a nail and we're like, we're gonna sue, that like we would end up like at the bottom of the river. You know what I mean? Like it just wouldn't happen. So anyways. Any Milwaukee people in the chat room, feel free to chime in on that one.
+
+[6:03] Yeah. But the uh but anyway, back to uh the kind of Tron aesthetic, not Tron specifically, but like the early video games, I really love, and it's really hard to find uh the old vector graphics games. You know what I'm talking about, Dave? Well, yeah, and you mentioned Star Wars. There was that one at I forget exactly what it was called, but at the uh public pool that I went to as a kid, they had that game where you were like, you know, flying in the Death Star and it was all vector graphics.
+
+[6:26] Yeah, so cool. That's the the original hard to beat. The original one, the 1983 Star Wars, is one of the all-time classic vector graphic games, and it was interesting because it was a color vector graphic because it was using all three um all three tubes. So the interesting thing about a vector graphic game as opposed to a raster graphic is that in the vector graphic games, they're literally controlling the electron beams, like in old CRT styles. This is why you can't emulate them accurately with you can, but it's very hard, with uh modern kind of screens.
+
+[6:55] They're literally drawing the lines with the electron beam, so you don't have um you don't have pixels really. They're literally drawing the lines, and so it has this kind of amazing sp you know glow that looks very, very specific and very awesome. So you think you're asteroids, your tempest. Anyway, but I would like to game like that. But do you think that's too hipster?
+
+[7:16] Hipsters don't care about that. They just want to play Dig Doug, right? I don't know. But you have a bartender game license. Wait, what'd you say?
+
+[7:22] You have a cabaret license. I don't have any license yet, people. We're not announcing where the new bar's gonna be. We have an accepted. I will say this.
+
+[7:29] Uh Don Lee and I and uh our other partner, Greg, have an accepted offer, right? Someone has accepted our offer on a space, which means that I feel more confident than I have in the past because I've never had an offer that was accepted by all parties that we will have a space that we can announce in the near future, but I can't yes. Don't jinx it. Yeah, yeah. Do you believe in it?
+
+[7:53] Do you believe in that? No. No? I only believe in it on when we're in traffic, and someone's like, We're almost home. This is so when we're not in traffic.
+
+[8:01] Oh, yeah. And then you're like, Where do you what's the origin of the word jinx? Is there some sort of stupid racial slur in that? Probably. I don't know.
+
+[8:07] What does it mean? Where does jinx come from? It's about gypsies, right? No, that's to to that's yeah, can't you can't use that. First of all, no, I don't think so.
+
+[8:14] You're thinking of the of the slur-based word to rip someone off, which when I was growing up, we had no idea that it was a slur. Yeah, that was so common. Who uh who knew? I I did not. And then someone was like, Dave, you can't say that.
+
+[8:25] I'm like, why? I'm like, because of this. I'm like, oh. And uh, yeah, so you can't uh you should not do that. Um okay, so we got a boat ton of questions to get to because we've been I've been out of business here for talk about big things first, right?
+
+[8:39] What? To get it out of the way, centrifuge. Oh, spins all let's do the spins all stuff toward towards the end. We never have enough time. We'll do it at the end.
+
+[8:46] Or in the middle. How about this? We'll do it in the middle. We'll do it right when we come back from the break. I don't have enough time to even take a break.
+
+[8:51] What? Oh, yes, we are. Oh, yeah. Gotta do some babies. We gotta pay those bills.
+
+[8:56] You gotta pay that pay those bills. So Nastasia, do you have any good food recently? No. I had some good food. Let me know.
+
+[9:01] Why would you not have it? Because you're like, let's get to questions. Yeah, but I like you know. Curious whether you haven't had it. We gotta transition from gaming issues to cooking issues somehow.
+
+[9:09] That's right. Uh Dave, anything? Anything interesting? Uh I'm eating a nice cup of yogurt right now. It's pretty good.
+
+[9:14] Come on, how good can the yogurt be? What is it? Like, what the hell? It's just, you know, whatever. It's full fat, I should say.
+
+[9:19] Because you got it on the city. Am I allowed to say that on the air? It's Baye. Okay. Oh, yeah.
+
+[9:25] It's just what's in the corner store. Did uh Bobby Flay convince you to buy that? No. You bought it without Bobby Flay? Did Bobby Flay's endorse?
+
+[9:31] Did you follow Angry Bobby Flay on Twitter? I don't. I should. Yeah, he's funny. Is it the real Bobby Flay?
+
+[9:36] I don't think so. I'm like 99% sure it's not. Okay. Uh I had some interesting food when I was in China. I had one interesting thing I should say.
+
+[9:45] And uh we went to this restaurant. It's actually the second time I've been to this straight okay, so Shenzhen, Nastasia is like 13 million people in Shenzhen, right? 13 million. Even though the city's only like 40 years old, thirty million uh thirteen million people there. And for some reason, two separate people brought me to the same freaking restaurant that the expats like in Shenzhen.
+
+[10:05] What are the odds of that? Crazy. It's crazy, right? Uh so I went there, but I had this really, really good kind of like semi-fusion eggplant dish that I'm gonna figure out how to make because it was a grilled eggplant, but it was completely flat, like super garlicky, super buttery, and like uh lots of chili, and then they put like which is this fusion-y, they put well first of all, I guess the butter, but then they put uh bonito flakes on top. So like Yeah, so it had that, like, you know, you've had bonito pizza before, right?
+
+[10:34] Where the stuff's it was like that, but it was really it was really good eating stuff style. So I'm gonna I'm gonna work on that as soon as I get back to Connecticut and have a grill that I'm gonna work with. Then maybe I'll adapt it for a regular place recipe, you know, that where you don't need a grill, but anyway, I was psyched on that. Anyway, okay. And that would have been if we were talking about the spins all now, an entree because I was in I was in China.
+
+[10:55] Do you ever flown? So this is the first time in my life I've flown all the way around the world, like all the way around. Like I flew from New York to Dublin to then to London, then to Frankfurt, then to Hong Kong, then back to Newark. Wow. Kind of sad to fly all the way around the world and up in Newark, huh?
+
+[11:16] No offense to Newark. No offense to Cory Booker and you know, Newark and all that, but I mean, come on, Newark. You know what I mean? Yeah. Newark.
+
+[11:23] Uh Dave, you're not a fan of Newark, are you? I mean you're not against Newark, right? Yeah, I guess I'm ambivalent. Yeah. All right.
+
+[11:29] Uh Trenton, on the other hand. What do you have against Trenton? No, no, though. I just love the sign. Oh.
+
+[11:34] Trenton takes or Trenton makes the world takes. Dalian? Love that sign. What's the one uh near the turnpike that's like world capital of embroidery? You seen this one?
+
+[11:44] You've seen this one, right, Nastasia? There's like a like one of the towns. Yeah, right before the Lincoln Tunnel. Oh yeah. World Capital of Embroidery.
+
+[11:51] You're like, wow, who knows? Oh, it's gotta be Bayonne, right? I don't know. I don't know. I love all of those town names, Passaic.
+
+[11:57] You know what I mean? Like Hohokus. Hohokus. Mawa. Ramapo.
+
+[12:03] Like all these like words over there. You know what I mean? It's like Mawa. Okay. Eddie Danell wrote in on the Twitter.
+
+[12:12] Um question is uh he's making a uh walnut ketchup recipe. So you're using your unripe uh you know your green your green walnuts. Um and you're making so ketchup obviously originally wasn't the uh heinz style ketchup, in other words, it wasn't tomato-based sauces in general. There was mushroom ketchups, there was everything, blah, blah, blah. And in fact, if you go back, if even modern, right?
+
+[12:36] The the phenomenon that took the uh New York culinary scene by storm like eight years ago, ketchup manice, uh, right, is ketchup manice is like that sweetened kind of soy thing, which is I think it's delicious. Remember when Nils and I used to put ketchup and east in everything? Yes. Like, what does this need? Uh ketchup anise.
+
+[12:52] You know what I mean? It's like everything. So um so ketchup was a more generic thing. Now, of course, ketchup is uh what's the brand of ketchup, Dave? Yeah?
+
+[13:01] What brand of ketchup do you use? Oh, Heinz, obviously. There you go. So it's like, because that's Heinz ketchup, and everything else is in order, everything else is just a different sauce that is in other words. Even if you're not a huge fan of Heinz, which I don't understand why you wouldn't be, because Heinz ketchup is delicious, but if you weren't a fan of Heinz ketchup, you would still rate other ketchups relative to Heinz.
+
+[13:22] You know what I'm saying? You would say it's like Heinz but thinner. It has the flavor of A1, but the texture of Heinz, which doesn't happen, right? Right. Anyway, uh so anyway, so ketchup used to be a more all inclusive thing, and there are old recipes for much mushroom ketchup, which I made.
+
+[13:39] It was okay. It wasn't great. You ever did I give you that ever when I made that? I was told last weekend that Sir Kensington's was the same as Heinz at dinner by someone, and I got so angry. Were they a food person?
+
+[13:50] They work in food. What as what? As a cashier. I didn't have my rim shot sound right. Like what?
+
+[13:59] Like what's their They are in food. They are in food media. Food media? They write about food of food. No, no, no.
+
+[14:06] They do production, like film production. Oh. They work with food network people. Right. They know from food.
+
+[14:12] They know how to take pictures of food. They know everything about food, but in this case. How could they say same as? Same as just no high fructose corn syrup was their thing. And I was like, I don't care.
+
+[14:24] I I I seriously don't care. But like well, my point is that like not the same. Not the same. It's like not ketchup. Like, you know what?
+
+[14:32] Well, I look, I'm not gonna go that far because you know what? I have to be honest, I've I don't know that I've had their ketchup as a as a as a tasting, but of course it's not the same. Nastasia Lopez, Peter Kim, same. Same. Low quality.
+
+[14:45] Same. You know, the only difference is uh there is no difference. They're the same person, right? They both have two eyes. Wow.
+
+[14:51] Nose, mouth. Cold discs. Full sets of digits. That is the coldest of disses, since Peter Kim is like who's that a diss to, though? Me.
+
+[15:02] But my point being like it's ridiculous to say it's the same, and whoever that was should be ashamed of themselves. They were just trying to piss you off. No, they were not. They were that we don't have that relationship. I have a friend who honestly believes hunts is better than Heinz.
+
+[15:15] You're allowed to believe these kinds of things as long as as long as you're as as long as you um you know, as long as you don't think they're the same. It's like if you say they're the same, that's when I'm like, well, nothing you say has merit. You like you're willing to just stand up there and say things that are false. Alternative facts. Yeah, alternative facts.
+
+[15:33] It's like, you know, anyway. So uh this is a an alternative ketchup, is not meant to be a substitute for uh the Heinz style of ketchup. So uh recipe is about fifty green walnuts, uh some salt, some uh two different kinds of vinegars there. You got your malt vinegar, your cider vinegar. Uh and of course, this is one of those recipes that you who's clearly written by someone because it's partially in cups, partially in ounces, partially in teaspoons, one of those.
+
+[15:59] Uh malt vinegar, cider vinegar, anchovies, uh, onion, red wine, uh, or port, ground nutmeg, uh, black pepper, cayenne, grated horseradish, uh, ginger, and here's the problem. Here's what uh Eddie was wondering about um Xanthan gum. So the the issue with this is is that you macerate the uh walnuts in this vinegar melange for uh a while, and then you heat it up and then you strain it out, and there's solids in it, right? And it's thin, like Worcestershire sauce thin, right? So it's not at all like a kind of a modern kind of ketchup that we would have.
+
+[16:33] It's not thickened because it doesn't contain any real uh like fruit pulp. Uh remember tomato being a fruit. So the his question is isn't that gonna be make it snotty? Now uh I didn't have time to do the calculations uh on this or look up how much uh a teaspoon of Xanthan gum weighs, but you definitely don't want to add enough xanthan to uh this ketchup to make it snotty. I think like I like I've said many times um uh on the show, there are cultures where like you're allowed to have really snotty xanthan uh textures and like it's kind of accepted, but obviously here in the U.S.
+
+[17:10] we don't appreciate um snot sauce so much. You know what I mean? Which is why a lot of people have problems with uh okra based sauces. Nastasi, do you like kind of snotty okra? No.
+
+[17:19] Dave? Yeah, I'm okay with it. Yeah, see, there you go. Do you like do you have you been to Spain? Do you enjoy snotty Spanish sauces?
+
+[17:25] I have not, but I think I would. They're not, but by the way, I'm just being harsh. Like back in the modern, back when like the modern wave was hitting like real hard on all cylinders, like in like 04 in the in the U.S., uh a lot of like like the like supermodern um people were do using a lot of Xanthan. So I'm not saying traditionally Spanish food has Xanthan, because of course it's not a traditional ingredient. I'm just saying when those very high-end chefs were making uh thickened um sauces in that era in that 04, 03, 04, 05 era, they didn't have any qualms about using a good bit of xanthan.
+
+[18:01] That's all I'm saying. I'm not making any comments about traditional Spanish cooking. So, yes, uh, but when you read the recipe, Eddie, the Xanthan is really, it's not there to thicken. That is not a thickening agent. They are using the Xanthan as a suspending agent.
+
+[18:15] So there's lots of fine, fine particles in this uh you know, walnut ketchup that will settle out over time. And a small amount of xanthan, and now it will add some kind of surface, so if you were gonna drink it as a beverage, you would kind of notice that it has a little bit of that jiggle to it. But if you're keeping the amount of xanthan very low, like you know, we you know, well under a quarter of a percent. And I have to like test the you know, I have to look at this and see what you know what they're what they're talking about. Um I think you should um I think you should be fine.
+
+[18:44] It's gonna suspend, but it's not there to thicken, it's there to suspend. If you want to thicken it, I definitely would not thicken it with xanthan gum. Uh well under a quarter percent. In fact, let me see what I was thinking. So if you're using three grams of uh ticket 0.6.
+
+[19:01] I have to do the calculations, but you you only want just enough to suspend. You can do it by testing and add a little more. Remember not to add a boat ton of xanthan at once, uh, even when you're working with very small amounts, because it will hydrate over time. And so you'll if if you try to thicken Alaminute with Xanthan, you'll a lot of times you'll find that 10-15 minutes later, because you haven't hydrated it uh properly at the get-go, you've over Xanthaned it, and then kind of then you're in Snotville. So a small amount of Xanthan's just there to suspend.
+
+[19:29] If you want to thicken it, I would use uh something else. Like, for instance, if you thought that maybe a fruit might be nice in there, choose like a less sweet fruit that has a lot of kind of uh, you know, uh a lot of uh body to it, and you could cook that into it, but um, you know, to really get it to you know be thick, you'd need to add something that has bodying. So you I wouldn't necessarily thicken it with I mean you could thicken it with something like um like LBG, I guess, or uh one of these things. But the problem is anytime you thicken something, you really deaden the flavor out, right? If you're thickening it with a thickener and you you're basically turning it into a more solid, it has a tendency to lock in flavor uh and kind of inhibit flavor release.
+
+[20:12] So anyway, that's my my feeling. What do you think, Sas? Yes. Stas is like, guess what, Dave? Don't care.
+
+[20:17] Uh Claire wrote in. Yeah, Claire wrote in, but not your Claire, right? This is a different Claire. I don't know. No, it's probably not my Claire.
+
+[20:24] This Claire cares about food. I'm just being mean. I'm just being mean. I still can't believe someone who works in food said that like that they're the same. I know.
+
+[20:37] Were they name names? No, I can't. Name names. I can. Which company were they trying to insult?
+
+[20:43] Heinz. They're trying to insult Heinz. Not insult, just very like calm, like, oh yes, try Sir Kensington's. It's the same. With no high protection corn syrup.
+
+[20:53] Why wouldn't they just say why wouldn't they just say try Sir Kentington's, I like it? Yeah, I think they said I like it too somewhere. Oh, yeah, that would have been fine. If they said I like it, then that's that's a valid opinion. Fine.
+
+[21:05] Because it's an opinion. Right, yeah, that's passable. But to say it's the same, that's just not right. Try this, try this Peter Kim. It's the same as Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[21:14] You know what I mean? It's like my sister and I have become rather obsessed with the flavor of habanero and manzano peppers. I've never really um worked with uh Manzano peppers before, but they are a medium sweet, a medium hot, like you know, hotter than a jalapeno, but not anywhere near a habanero hot, but uh supposedly kind of very fruity, has a lot of those kind of fruity floral notes that you get from a habanero, but again, I don't know, because I've never really worked with them. Uh we've been trying to create a dish where the sweet floral flavors of these peppers come through and are not overwhelmed by the spice. We thought a buttercream frosting for cupcakes might do the trick since it has such a high fat content um that could counteract the spiciness.
+
+[21:56] However, we had some problems getting enough of the pepper flavor into the frosting to be detectable. Uh adding blended up peppers at the end results in a buttercream that is kind of sweaty and too watery. What do you think about the sweaty gross? Gross, right? Sweaty.
+
+[22:09] Sweaty peppers. Sweaty peppers. Sweaty peps. Sweaty peps. Uh but you do you like shweaty balls because you love Alec Ball.
+
+[22:15] You love Alec Baldwin. I do love Alec Baldwin. Yeah. Do you know that Nastasia Lopez went to uh Alec Baldwin's wife's yoga class just to be closer to Alec Bolwan. It's actually good.
+
+[22:28] I have to say. Yeah. It's one of the few good ones. Did it smell like shweddy balls? Shwedy balls.
+
+[22:35] Um the buttercream is kind of sweaty and too watery, but only just barely taste of pepper. We serve this stuff at a family occasion and nobody actually noticed the pepper taste at all. So, well, the answer there is put more freaking pepper in. I'm okay. Uh well, I am, but I'm not.
+
+[22:51] Okay. So our second attempt was to actually infuse the egg whites for the buttercream with the peppers for a while uh to get the flavor in that way. We let chopped up peppers sit in egg whites for about 24 hours, about a cup of chopped up peppers with three egg whites. We did three types of peppers habanero, manzano, and chilaca peppers, which are milder. Basically, the egg whites with the chilaka peppers in them whipped up fine, but didn't have much of the pepper taste.
+
+[23:13] But the egg whites from the Manzano and the Habanero peppers were fairly flavorful, but completely failed to whip up at all. We uh even tried cut whip. We even tried cutting them with fresh egg whites and no luck. What's going on here? Is the capsation disrupting the egg white proteins, or is there just so much more oil in the habaneros and manzanos uh than in the chilacas?
+
+[23:31] Is there anything we can do to combat this or some other way to get that lovely pepper flavor into our frosting? Thanks for the show. I've been listening to all your back episodes. Well, driving across the country as I move from Connecticut to Vancouver. That's a long move.
+
+[23:42] That's a long move. Long move. You ever been to Vancouver? I like Vancouver. Great.
+
+[23:46] It's nice. You know what's the problem with Canada is? Boost price too high. Oh. Oh.
+
+[23:53] Wait, what did Nasasia say? Canadians. Oh. They're not our worst customers. Canadians aren't bad customers.
+
+[24:02] Canadian customs are a pain in the ass. No, it's not that. Europeans are bad customers. It's not that. No, Europeans are fine.
+
+[24:08] Canadians. Jeez. Anyways, uh, I would say I don't know. It was interesting. I tried to look into surface.
+
+[24:15] I did a uh brief uh search on surface active properties of peppers. I was not able to find that. Uh if I was looking into um I couldn't find anything specifically on whipping egg whites uh and capsation or any of this stuff. So I wasn't able to find uh anything specific, but it sounds like from your test that you know that there is something with these hotter peppers, it's probably um messing with the egg whites. So my my feeling is is that you might want to move on to a different kind of um buttercream frosting, one that doesn't require whipped egg whites.
+
+[24:52] So a good place to start uh in in terms of like figuring out what you want to do is uh Nylah Jones has a uh it was like three or four years ago, did something on the series. It's called the world of buttercreams, six varieties to try at home, uh, and just goes through the various different kinds of ones. But I think the one that stands out that I think you might want to try for this is um the kind of flour-based. So you make what amounts to a roux with milk, uh, and then you heat that with uh the flour and with flour, making like literally like a roux, and then you let that roux cool down, you make sure her skin doesn't form, and you beat that into the butter. Uh and that is a prime candidate, assuming that the hot peppers don't break the milk, which I haven't tested whether super hot peppers will break the milk, but I don't think they will.
+
+[25:43] Uh you can get that pepper flavor into the milk, and there's a fairly high quantity of milk uh per unit butter. So I think you could do well to get a good kind of flavor into your uh buttercream that way. Now I'd always thought you just made a straight um kind of milk flour uh kind of a roux, even though it's not butter, but kind of a roux. You just have to make sure you blend the hell like blend the hell out of it so it doesn't have um uh part you don't want like um starch particles in it. You want to make sure that you you know like either slurry it first, slurry the flour with the milk, or um, or you know, just make sure that you break it up before you heat it, otherwise you're gonna get clumping.
+
+[26:22] But and I obviously you have to cool it all the way, or it's gonna mess up the butter when after you put it into the with the butter. But what's interesting is she actually adds the sugar to the um milk mixture and doesn't cream the sugar into the uh butter and then add the stuff. And she says that it's a much smoother uh result than you would get if you creamed the if you fluffed up the butter, cream, you know, cream the sugar into it uh and then added the stuff, which is interesting. So I had never thought about that before. But I would do that kind of uh situation because I feel that you'd definitely be able to get a very heavy um pepper flavor into a milk base uh and then whip into the buttercream reading.
+
+[27:02] Good stuff is like again, don't care. All right. Sounds legit. Look at this. What?
+
+[27:08] Oh yeah, Nastasia, I think rightly so, loves any sort of new hot mess of a server that we get here at Roberta's. And uh you want to describe you can't. You can't? It's kind of like a German type thing, right? Uh like Kraftwerk.
+
+[27:25] Yeah. Like uh I listened to Kraftwerk, but the uh I don't know, like the speaking of which it's a weird day in New York. Like when I was when I was walking here in Bushwick, it was like I can't describe everything because there's no polite way to describe everything I saw on the way over. But it was like I was living just that brief walk from Flushing Avenue over here through Bushwick was like living in a Terry Gilliam movie. I don't know what it is.
+
+[27:52] Like Time Bandits or like uh Brazil. Yeah, like in other words, like like there were like crowds gathered around dead rats. There was a giant set of hands coming out of the back of a pickup truck that were attached to a giant white boot ahead. There was just like just there was trucks parked in the middle of the road on uh the street here more, like big trucks just parked, and then cars driving on the sidewalk, like some backwards reality, like and other things that literally I cannot mention on the air. It was like living in one of those movies.
+
+[28:26] I was like, wow. Family show. Summer times. Summer times. Uh summertime of New York.
+
+[28:30] So Mark writes in from Pittsburgh PA, who I I guarantee you, Mark from Pittsburgh. He likes Heinz. He likes Heinz. He's not sitting there, like, you know, telling us someone else that it's the same, man. This server really is kind of messed up.
+
+[28:42] Explain it, Dave. I can't. I can't. Hey, look. I don't know.
+
+[28:47] He's not messed up. He just has a look. He has a very specific look. You know what I'm saying? Like super specific look.
+
+[28:54] Like here. Dave, what do you think about this? My feeling on uh is like a place like Roberta's is interesting because I love it here. Yeah, place like Ver I love it here. Like what are you?
+
+[29:04] The Manchurian candidate for Roberta's? Jesus. What I'm saying is is that Roberta's is interesting because it was built on this idea of we're like gonna do whatever we want, like rock and roll, blah, blah, blah, right? Sure. Right.
+
+[29:17] So like I think Robert's can pull it off. Like Roberta's basically, you can do almost anything you want like that. But I mean, I think not everyone can pull that off. What do you think, Dave? Yeah, I think that's true.
+
+[29:30] Yeah. I don't know. It's just it's it's interesting. Like I like looking around at places as we're looking to open the new bar. I'm just looking at kind of what you know, what you as a place, the culture that you make in a place, like what that gives you permission to do with your customers, but also at the same time, kind of how that can guide your future.
+
+[29:49] So here it's like, okay, look, like established with this kind of rock and roll vibe, we're just gonna do it, and it's kind of a miracle that this this place's been here for what, over 10 years, right? Yeah, but it's not just that, it's like flourished, you know what I mean? And so it started with this kind of like, you know, like uh the odds when you started that it was going to be successful, right? With it, I don't know, I don't know what the odds are, but it's kind of amazing that it like flourish in this kind of huge thing. But now there's a place where yeah, you can have cutoffs, you know, you can wear, be a dude wearing cutoff shorts so short that I can basically see your junk and like you know, wear like you know, a bunch of like super tight choker necklaces, and like I can see your midriff and like all this other stuff.
+
+[30:29] You can do that as a server at Roberta. Which is what we just saw. And your customers aren't like, wow, your your junk is up in my face with those hyper short cutoff shorts. They're just like, oh, it's for Bertus. Right, right.
+
+[30:45] Show me your junk. Show me your junk. But the thing is, is I think that that's fine, but it's just it it great. You know, it's that the interesting thing is is that like how many places can do that? You know what I mean?
+
+[30:54] Like, how is it that the culture you choose at the beginning of starting your restaurant allows you or your bar allows you to do certain things, but I think also can shackle you, right? Because you can't do other things. Like if you make a choice to be this kind of rock and roll that you can't all of a sudden be like, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna spiff it up a little bit. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[31:12] We're gonna you know what Dave Chang famously said, right? He said, uh Dave Chang said, uh, you can be a hundred millionaire and still be a good person, but the minute you become a billionaire, you must have killed someone to get there. That's his theory. True. Yeah, you think so?
+
+[31:27] But he hangs out with billionaires now. I don't think so. Hey, you want to take a call? Yeah, call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, absolutely love your show.
+
+[31:35] Um hi everybody. Hi, hi Natasha. Hi. Um, Nasasha, you come from Covina, right? Yeah.
+
+[31:41] Yeah, me too. Whoa. Do you also like Good Burger in the movie? You like that movie? Don't like those.
+
+[31:44] How old are you? Nastasia's leaning forward to a display. How old are you? Oh, I'm older than you. I'm I'm day-age.
+
+[31:57] Oh, okay. So Goodburger. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. Um, my son loves to get into welding.
+
+[32:04] He's six years 16 years old. Um what do you suggest for a small stick welding rig? Okay, this is a great question. It's a fantastic question. And I will say this.
+
+[32:15] When I was learning to weld, um, they still made you do the very old school kind of uh thing, which is you start learning how to use uh an oxyacetylene torch uh and then you know learn to cut with an oxyacetylene torch and ferrous metal and then learn to braise and actually do torch welding. And from there that you graduated to uh welding with a stick welder, and from there they taught you MIG welding, and then if you were lucky, you got to learn TIG, right? And so that's kind of the progression that we were uh taught. I never uh you know, and I the I and by the way, Lindy, the compressed gas people, Lindy, uh have an old uh book which is I think almost free, the oxyacetylene uh handbook, which I highly recommend you buy. I think it came out in the 40s or 50s.
+
+[33:10] It's really cool. It's not up to date, obviously, but it has everything you need to know about torches if you care about torches, which you know, why wouldn't you care about torches? Um I'm gonna have to say that I don't know that I agree with the old school uh pedagogy. Now, if your child is the kind of person, so like let's say I was gonna teach uh Dax, which I am teaching Dax how to weld. I'm not taking him, I'm not making him do the the stick and all that.
+
+[33:39] I just went straight to MIG. And the reason I went straight to MIG is is that you know you could teach all the safety and everything, but if you really want someone to get into it and they're the kind of person that gets frustrated easily, like learning to do uh good work with a stick welder is much harder than learning to do like decent work with a MIG because a MIG is basically just like a hot glue gun for metal. So and I think that you obviously I think you should learn a stick welder because it's going to give you kind of the control over the um you know over your hands and over the um the the metal and the the you know the the melt puddle uh there and it it's really good but I would say get a decent quality um stick welder. I would also say that um sorry MIG welder um and I don't know kind of how much space you have or kind of what kind of power you have but they make some decent now like um uh 125, 220 like uh that can go kind of in both on the small side that are very portable um you know it's very easy to get the the you know the the kind of the gas hooks up hookups for them and if it's that you don't want to worry about the gas and that's why you're doing stick flux core is also a good way to start with um with uh welding with uh you know with with a feeder I just think it's a lot easier. Um, but if you really want to start with a stick, I mean, I don't I don't haven't used a a stick on a daily basis in it's gotta be oh 20 years now.
+
+[35:12] I haven't used a stick on a daily basis just because I've always wanted to have access to a uh a MIG welder. But I would say that like if it was modern, I would still teach how to learn how to use a torch. I would get a MIG welder, get them into the welding, and then after that, I would go to where I never actually went, which is I would get into TIG welding, because TIG welding is a real art, and you're gonna learn a lot of the kind of control, patience, and um and you know, craft work with a TIG uh like more than any other kind of welding, right? And so I think an entree into that, uh especially if it was gonna be my you know my teenage uh boys who like you know are hard to kind of get to focus for a long time, especially if they're just practicing making weld beads one after another, um, I would go that way. The the other thing to note is that you're gonna want to get someone to teach them serious um safety when they're learning to weld, and that doesn't just mean safety when they're welding, for instance, like making sure they don't get sunburnt from the arc, uh making sure that they don't uh burn themselves, making sure they don't uh weld onto things that have zinc and and you know get um overcome by zinc fumes, uh, you know, making sure they're kind of making sure that they don't catch fire to uh their surroundings.
+
+[36:26] So there's all this safety, but there's the further safety of all of a sudden you can weld uh metal together, which means that you can make very large, very heavy, potentially dangerous things uh that can kill you. And frankly, I was not taught these things when I was uh taught to weld because when they teach you to weld uh at a liberal arts college in art art classes, they're you know, they don't expect you to make big giant dangerous things that can kill you. And so if you don't have a thorough understanding of the theory of of uh welding, it's very easy to do things like make a giant uh thousand pound spinning uh you know articulated um kinetic sculpture where the main axle has been welded on with a hundred and ten volt uh welder in the bathroom of your dorm, and it looks like a good weld because you don't know you're you're behind from a hot rock, but instead you've really just crystallize weld on the outside and the two pieces of metal aren't joined, and the entire thing falls and just barely misses killing you by like fractions of an inch. Like that is entirely possible if they don't have training in um kind of what constitutes a good weld, how to evaluate a weld, making sure that you you you know you get good um weld penetration and are using the um using the pro you know you're not trying to uh go over the capacity of your welder. So I you know, like that stuff I would kind of inculcate early, but I'm not necessarily a believer in having to start with the stick.
+
+[37:54] Is this make any sense or no? Yeah, that's and you've addressed all my concerns because I'm I mean I don't want him killing himself and I don't want them burning the house down. Um I'm trying to find somebody to teach them, but it's all welding classes that are you know thousands of dollars. I'm trying to find somebody to teach them because I don't know how to do it. My husband knows a little bit about it, but trying to find somebody that just is like a hobbyist around here in South Florida is a little challenging.
+
+[38:18] Right. I would do like, you know, I would make sure that you look the sparks in these things can cause they fly a long way and they can go uh really far. Um stick welding throws off. So the garage is full of wood. Yeah, you gotta be careful.
+
+[38:36] Get welding curtains, um, and just make sure that you know you've clean, you know, you you the area doesn't have any um stuff, and really the curtains can help if they go all the way down because sparks do go a long way. Sticks tend to throw a lot of sparks because of the uh coating on the outside. Flux core tends to throw uh more stuff off than straight MIG does. And um, you know, torches when you're cutting, obviously, they're literally burning through the metal, they throw off a lot of stuff. And so you you kind of really want to be um you know cognizant of of that.
+
+[39:09] Um, but that stuff that stuff can be made safe. But I'll tell you what, nothing is more uh goofy than a welding sunburn. You know what I'm saying? It's like it hurts like hell too. I mean, especially like I'm so fair that I, you know, the first couple times I burnt myself, sunburnt myself with a welder by letting a patch of skin stay uh, you know, for hours, you know, in in arc light.
+
+[39:28] It makes you feel like a real moron. So I just be you know careful of that. Also, uh I would not get the cheapest possible uh MiG welder because um if the feeder mechanism is not very good, it's just uh you're gonna get a lot of jams all the time, and it just is a real uh disincentive to um learning. But uh, you know, get some books, do some research. Um there are probably some art people who will do it who where anytime you're they're teaching someone to do it professionally, they're it's gonna be pretty hardcore and it's gonna cost a lot of money.
+
+[40:00] But you might be able to find someone who's doing it for an an art uh for art, and then I would just talk to them and you know make sure that they're that they're serious about teaching like long term uh safety in terms of what you're building and safety for yourself. I would I would do that. And that might be a lot cheaper. There's a yeah, there's an AI an art institute up in Fort Lauderdale. Maybe I could get like a grad student or something.
+
+[40:22] Yeah. Yeah. Slip them some booze, slip them a couple bucks, and you know, see see uh what's going on. Just you know, uh it's fun, it's awesome, but again, it just requires like a little just a little bit of caution at the beginning so that you don't kill yourself down the road. Yeah.
+
+[40:37] I have another question too. Um I've got the tank, I'm doing my own seltzer now. I've got the carbon in air cap, but it's not holding the bubble past like the next day. Like it seems a little flat the next day. Okay, so every time every time you take a uh sip, you just recharge it.
+
+[40:56] So what you do is is you you take your bottles, you you're not carbonating straight Florida water, are you? You have some sort of filter to get rid of the sulfur note. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, thank goodness.
+
+[41:07] Florida, I mean, no offense, but every f every Florida tap water I've tasted that's unfiltered is like horrible carbonated. Do you find this or not? Terrible. Horrible. Like horrible.
+
+[41:16] Um, so yeah, so that what you do is is you um make sure that the stuff's cold, uh, carbonate it. Uh usually water, unlike cocktails, really only requires a double carbonation to really get it ripping. I would keep your pressure somewhere in the area of around um thirty-five to forty PSI. Uh do it twice, and then after you pour your first glass, squeeze it, re put the carbonator cap on, and give it a shake at full pressure again, and then it'll be as it'll be as good as the first time um on the next day. If you don't, there's nothing that's gonna preserve it because w it you know, it's it's basically gassing off all that CO2 into the headspace of your bottle up to the pressure that it was in in the bottle, and so you're constantly decreasing the amount of gas in.
+
+[42:01] So w like we n I never put one back in the fridge that I haven't uh charged back up to full pressure with CO two. Okay, cool. I'll try that. Thank you. And we went to the I took my daughter down for the first time to the spice park a couple weeks ago, so that was fun.
+
+[42:14] Awesome place, right? Yeah, that was fun. Yeah. Anyone who's in anyone who's in South Florida, South Day, go down to the fruit and spice park. It's a state park.
+
+[42:22] And make sure you go with someone who's gonna let you steal some stuff off the trees. Remember, Stas, we went twice, and one time we could steal the stuff off the trees, and the other time we couldn't steal the stuff off the trees. I was in the You didn't go the second time? Maybe you didn't go the second time. The time we went, we stole all the stuff off the trees.
+
+[42:36] That's the thing, man. If you like, because I because you're not a huge plant head. You just you're a flower head, not a plant head. You like you don't like vegetable plants. You like the vegetable.
+
+[42:46] Yeah, but you don't you're not you're not gonna be able to do it. I'm you don't stare at the plants. I don't stare at the plant. You want the vegetable. Yes.
+
+[42:51] What are you growing this year? Lots of tomatoes, 16 different tapes. I told you what happened to me last year with tomatoes, right? Mine were bad too. No, no, I had giant plants.
+
+[42:59] My plants were amazing. We didn't get one tomato because they were all eaten. Oh. Here we should take a quick break. All right, quick break.
+
+[43:05] Come back back with cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard-to-get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's red mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting, fun things to play with.
+
+[43:54] Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. And we're back. Uh Mark from Pittsburgh wrote in about uh garlic. We won't talk about ketchup, we'll just talk about the question really quickly. Uh big fan of the show.
+
+[44:08] Love my Sears all. Looking forward to my spinz all. Been cooking for many years in different facets from diet fine dining to basic approachable catering. In a recent review of a blog discussing the dangers of vacuum sealing garlic, I was getting conflicting information regarding the safety of it cooked versus uncooked. My question is to you.
+
+[44:23] I am placing my am I placing my guests or family in danger with the current practice. I adopted a batch roasting pounds of peeled garlic. I salt, roast, blast chill, and then toss with oil and place into half pound vacuum bags and freeze. If I need it for a function, I can pull out the amount of bags that I need, uh, have them at home, I can nip a corner and squeeze out the few c a few cloves to puree, saute, smear on bread, and keep the rest frozen. Please uh reply via email if possible.
+
+[44:46] I don't have the email in case I missed a show, although that's highly unlikely. Mark in Pittsburgh, you're totally safe. Here's the thing garlic in oil is unsafe from a botulism perspective if you're going to keep it at room temperature. If you're going to store it at room temperature in an oxygen deprived environment or anywhere near room temperature, botulism can grow. And the issue is cooking the garlic is not enough to kill the botulism, so that's unsafe.
+
+[45:11] You, however, like there's no you're not making it less safe by cooking it. So if you're willing to take garlic, freeze it in a bag, and then eat it later, then cooking it is not gonna make it less safe. In fact, it will make it more safe. It won't make it safe as a shelf stable thing. So it's one of those things where as soon as you say garlic and oil.
+
+[45:31] People are like, ah you know what I'm saying, Stas. You seem to have botulism, but you're not gonna get botulism if the stuff's frozen. You're not gonna kill the botulism by freezing it, but you're not gonna get botulism uh either. So it sounds like your procedure is uh a hundred percent um good. Uh Jeff Given wrote in, and I was gonna go on a long uh thing about how to patent uh cooking equipment, but it looks like we're not gonna have uh time because I'm gonna do a spinz all thing.
+
+[45:56] Uh Tim Rupar wrote in with a bunch of questions. I'll answer just this one. I'll answer the rest uh next week, but uh one question was um why Celsius? I understand metric measurements in weight and volume, but it seems like Fahrenheit is actually more precise than Celsius. And the answer is well, nothing like it depends on what you mean by more precise.
+
+[46:16] If you're going to cook to decimal degrees of Celsius, then I guess it doesn't really matter, right? Because you're cooking to decimal degrees of Celsius, and that's really precise, more precise than anyone uh needs to be. I think it's just a question of who you're talking to. So typically, you know, when I was doing a lot of work um with my original kind of sous-vide low temperature uh stuff, uh I was dealing with a lot of Europeans, and a lot of the recipes and people I were talking to were Europeans, and they all deal in Celsius. And so I started doing all of that kind of stuff in in Celsius, but stuff that you know I've done uh since I was a child, uh, I do in Fahrenheit because my mind speaks Fahrenheit.
+
+[46:52] So there's no real reason. It's just as the world becomes more international, as our world in the Americas become in America becomes more international, um, and you know, with the internet, it just is easier to do a lot of these things kind of in Celsius. What do you think, Stas? All right, now Nastasia wants me to give the spinzall update. So, for those of you uh who are just coming to this, uh is that the beginning of uh Lenny Kravitz, It Ain't Over Till It's Over?
+
+[47:19] No, definitely not. Now I have that going through my head. Do you have that song going through your head? Yeah, yeah. D D.
+
+[47:26] You like that song? Are you a Lenny Kravitz fan or no? Let me get crazy, man. That's a good song. That's a good song.
+
+[47:31] Because it ain't over till it's over. Uh so uh Spinzall is the world's first culinary centrifuge. And actually it'd be interesting to talk next week uh about patenting and like what the patent procedure is like. Because I think people don't really understand if they have an idea for a kitchen implement or anything else, kind of what it's like to go through the patent procedure and what it's like to actually start a business that way. So it's an interesting topic.
+
+[47:52] So you know, I could talk to Jeff about that or anyone if anyone's interested. But um so here's where we are. We've gone through what's called pilot production, which means they have made the actual units with the actual parts with the actual workers on the actual line that they're going to do the production run with. Uh this week they're taking that production pilot production set that they've made. They made 40 on the pilot production, just the way they made 40 for what's called the engineering build uh run.
+
+[48:20] And they're putting it through the test to make sure that they are going to withstand the quality controls uh that that we're imposing on them for the mass production run. That testing should be done this week. Uh the rest of the parts are in by uh the first week of August, and they are all gonna get built between August 7th and August 10th. And so, in anticipation uh of that, uh we've also decided to ship the um this batch directly from China to customers. And so um we are opening up the orders again when, like tomorrow or the next day?
+
+[48:55] Yeah. So if you place your order by, I haven't figured out what the actual cutoff date, but I think it's basically the manufacturing date by August 7th. It we're gonna open it up again. And if anyone wants to order one and they order it by we're not 100% sure when the cutoff date is, but I think around August 7th, if you order it by then, you will get yours with the first batch that uh comes in until obviously we we only have a uh you know a fixed number, but if you order them, then you'll get otherwise you have to wait till October because we're gonna put the rest on a boat and ship them over here on a boat to mod to Modernist Pantry and Amazon to sell from here. Um yeah, so that's uh what do you want more on the update?
+
+[49:30] We've uh been dealing with individual rotor balancing. So the stuff we're dealing with is like making sure all the individual rotors are balanced properly and again meet meet our uh QC, but everything's looking good, everything's still on sketch. Yeah? Is that a good update, Stas? So you want to hear?
+
+[49:46] All right. And I'm gonna be going to Tales of the Cocktail on uh Thursday and on Friday. I'm actually gonna do a spinzall seminar at Tales of the Cocktail, and I will have there in the house one of the actual production units uh as well as some of the engineering build units. So anyone who's going to be in New Orleans can come check it out. I'll probably Instagram out a few pictures.
+
+[50:07] I have a couple pictures of the actual assembly line if people want to see it, but I don't know. I don't know whether people actually want to see the assembly line or not. But anyway, that's uh cooking issues back next week. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[50:34] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[51:02] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. We asked our hosts what Heritage Radio Network means to them. Listen in to hear what they had to say. Hi, everybody.
+
+[0:18] This is Carrie Diamond, host of Radio Cherry Bomb, and I'm here to tell you why I love Heritage Radio. It's all Dave Tatasure. 100%. It's what keeps me coming back every Thursday. I pretend it's pizza.
+
+[0:32] I pretend it's the bomb squad, but it's Dave. Do your part to keep Heritage Radio Network alive by supporting our summer drive at heritage radio network.org slash donate. Hello and welcome to Cooking You's. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 on uh Roberto Pizzeria in Bushwig. Brooklyn.
+
+[1:11] Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? We got plenty of special guests. We have again with me because this is uh, you know, the fifth or sixth month of uh take your uh take your child to work life. Yeah, I should be I should be be able I should be having my independence back by December.
+
+[1:27] Yeah, so yeah, Booker Booker is here. One half of the team, Booker and Dax. Where's my mic? Uh we're sharing a mic. We're sharing a mic.
+
+[1:35] You can share it with Nastasia. Nastasia hates being near the mic. Yeah, she never uses it. Can I put my headphones back on? The yelling done.
+
+[1:41] The yelling is done, Booker. Uh by the way, while Booker's putting his headphones on, we got Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? I'm good. How are you doing?
+
+[1:47] I don't know. How was your how was your week? Uh it's pretty uneventful. Any any cooking issues and/or eating issues? Uh no, no.
+
+[1:54] Uh there's an there's a new pizza here at Roberto's, so that's a good eating issue. Oh, yeah, what is it? It's called the Ursula Parade. It's got clams on it. It's delicious.
+
+[2:01] Oh, like like uh like from Little Mermaid. Uh yeah, like the mermaid parade, but it's a big thing. I used to watch that all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's funny when yeah, Ursula's two little poopsies.
+
+[2:13] Yeah, that those the moray eels, uh, her nickname for them were poopsies, yes. Uh does it have octopus on it on account of the fact that she was a freaking octopus and not a clam? Well, you'd have to talk to management about that. I don't know. You'll turn back into a mermaid, and you belong to me.
+
+[2:29] Yeah. All right. You know, considering that Booker hasn't seen that show in like seven years, it's pretty good memory. You know when I feel that like, don't you remember? Anyway, well, we got more.
+
+[2:38] We're getting stuck. No, I saw it on my 10th birthday once. That was five years ago. All right, fine. All right.
+
+[2:43] Well, hold on. We got more people to introduce Booker. I also saw it when I was 12. Okay. In it in its entirety?
+
+[2:50] Uh, yes. On VHS, DVD or Netflix? On the plane once. On the plane. So who the heck knows what format that was?
+
+[2:57] You watched it on a plane? Yeah. That was what you chose to watch on a plane? It was it was one of the choices. All right.
+
+[3:04] Well, good. You know, but uh, so is she one of the Disney princesses that you actually like? Um, well, I kind of grew out of it. Yeah, I didn't I don't I threaten you constantly with like uh buying uh uh frozen cereal and I hate frozen. And I believe I mentioned on air once that uh the kids were stealing my toothbrushes.
+
+[3:23] Uh when I was an Elsa toothbrush, so that when we're about to take a toothbrush, I'm like, heck no, I'm not taking that babyish toothbrush. Yes, they did they take your toothbrushes. It was a great strategy. Well, because kids just don't care. They're like, oh, this is a toothbrush.
+
+[3:38] I'm being forced to brush my teeth. So I will take this toothbrush, which is horrible, horrifying. Uh we have uh Nick Wong, formerly of uh Som Bar and French cloner. How are you doing? Hello.
+
+[3:53] What's that clapping noise? That's uh fake applause, Booker. That's called Candle. Yeah. Oh, well, we actually have a good studio audience uh here.
+
+[4:01] And we have uh in the booth uh Tim, right? Yep. So okay, so Tim is supporter of uh the Heritage Radio Network. Why don't you tell us your your story here? What what you do, where you're from.
+
+[4:11] And is that your family? Why don't they come in? Bring a chair in. Oh, they'll be they'll be around in a bit. Yeah, that's my family.
+
+[4:16] Uh my wife and my son Jack. Nice. Um yeah, I'm from California. Um been out there hanging out. Uh went to University of Michigan and I'm working at Apple now.
+
+[4:27] Oh, yeah, what do you do at University of Michigan? Uh just Ooh, you work for Apple? Can you get me a free iPhone 8? I've never heard of that before. It's coming out.
+
+[4:37] It's coming out this fall. Uh not according to people who actually work there. If if you were to mention anything about a future product, like a lightning bolt would come out of this Steve Jobs ghost would come back and drill a hole in his head instantly, he'd fall over like a SWAT team. Probably true. Yeah, and and listen, we we really don't want to get started with Apple discussions, like for instance, like things that like, you know, for as much as I love all the Apple products, how much a few things could make my life so much better that they refuse to do because they prefer to run the way, make me work the way they want me to work instead of allowing me to work the way that I would like to work.
+
+[5:09] Are you familiar with this argument from outsiders? Absolutely. But hey, great product. Look, look at look at the number of Apple products we have sitting around here right now. So you know, you won, we lost.
+
+[5:18] Uh that's my mom. We're all jealous of my mom. She has an iPhone seven plus red. Oh, yeah, super, super jealous. Uh so what do you do for the uh for Apple?
+
+[5:27] What do you do for for Big Apple there? Uh software engineering. Oh, so like you're like uh you're you're uh some sort of like a monster. You're some sort of a not in the bad way, like good monster. Yeah, no, I mean uh been there ten years, and so we uh do all the operating systems for the different platforms and everything.
+
+[5:43] Yeah, all right. Well, uh at lunchtime, uh we'll we'll just go at it. Yeah. List your grapes. Uh super.
+
+[5:50] Um, so what do we got? We got uh Nastasia, we got a caller on the air here or no? All right, so let me read the question first, and then uh then we'll bring in our experts on it, because we've got some experts on it, and we'll we'll see what's going on. None of you guys have had any sort of cooking and or eating issues in the past week, huh? I feel that this is unusual.
+
+[6:08] Maybe you've just been boring. Eventually, Nastasia can talk about the comedy show that we went to last night. And Peter Kim, our favorite, our favorite uh whipping post. He uh whipped. He got whipped.
+
+[6:22] So Nastasia, who by the way, as any of you who know her in person know, is incredibly mean to people. Like incredibly dis if she doesn't know you, Nick, back me up on this. No, that's right. Uh yeah, yeah, right. But dismissive anyway.
+
+[6:36] She's dismissive. Hey. What do I say? Don't interrupt. Ah.
+
+[6:44] Also good. Oh my god, Booker is so awesome. So the uh so anyway, so the point being that uh Nastasia is very dismissive of people, right? And so what happened is Peter. So this is to show that Nastasia is actually nicer than Peter Kim is in these situations.
+
+[6:59] So the MC for this event, I mean, admittedly, Nastasia. Not not funny. Not funny. Uh, but Peter Kim decides, he didn't earn my laugh, so I'm not gonna laugh. And doesn't even crack a smile.
+
+[7:12] So the guy starts picking on him, and it just got where's for everyone and Stasi and I were like, dude, just crack a smile, and everyone's life's gonna be better. Like he'll be funnier. What, Booker? What I was gonna say is, because of, yeah, because of my dad talking about how mean Nastasia is, he said his ringtone to whatever Nastasia calls him. It's him saying, You're mean to me.
+
+[7:34] Yeah, that is true. When Nastasia calls me, it says, You are mean to me. You are mean to me. Can you try to copy it like the real voice, like as if you were re-recording it? But that is him.
+
+[7:46] That is me. I mean, I can have Nastasia saying it. Is that what you want? You want Nastasia saying? I know here.
+
+[7:52] What would your ringtone be, Booker? Um, yeah, you know Willy Wonko's you get nothing. Yeah, no, but what would your ringtone for me? In other words, like when you call my phone, what what should what should my phone say? I think I know what it should say.
+
+[8:07] You know what I think it should say? What? Shut up, Dad! Well, I That's what I think it should say. Can you say that for people so they can understand?
+
+[8:15] Shut up, Dad! See, that's that's what I'm saying. Dad, Dad, I only do it when you like do things intentionally to annoy me. Like what? Like when he talks about poop or something.
+
+[8:26] Because of that, I use crude language. I use crude bathroom language. Well, listen, listen, Booker, very serious now. This is a family show. There's no cursing on this show.
+
+[8:36] Okay. Alright? Even if like a meteor comes out of the sky and stubs your toe, I don't want to hear a curse out of you. Well right. Alright, now let's get to this question so that we actually answer some questions on today's show.
+
+[8:49] By the way, Tim, we're gonna if you have any specific questions, what's your cook? What do you like to cook, by the way? Um, I do all sorts of stuff. I mean like name one of those stuffs. I don't know, putting me on the spot.
+
+[9:03] Well, what do you hate to cook? What do you hate? Ah I always say I hate mushrooms, but then I cook them and I like them. So is it because they're poisonous? I generally stay away from those.
+
+[9:14] At my grandma's house in Mystic, Connecticut, there are tons of mushrooms growing. But they're not the kind you can eat. Alright, listen. We're gonna let Tim think about what he wants to talk about cooking wise. And we're gonna get to uh Jeff uh Jeff's question on patenting, all right?
+
+[9:32] Okay. So I'm not gonna, Jeff, I'm not gonna read the specifics of what you want to patent because that would be stupid. So I'm not gonna read that stuff aloud on the air. Um but uh I will say uh in general, your question is um like how do you patent something, how do you go about patenting something? Uh Jeff did a preliminary search.
+
+[9:54] I'll I'll go say to this it has to do with plumbing, all right. Uh and it has to do with the fact that he had a specific problem. Have any of you guys ever like hired a plumber? Nick, you've hired a plumber. Yeah, for random.
+
+[10:08] Right. Plumbers are fantastic, right? Because they make water appear and disappear where you want it to appear and disappear. And this is a great thing. But the problem with any sort of professional person is in general, what they want to do is do the job and get out.
+
+[10:25] Right? Which means that they don't want to do anything outside of what they normally do. Because I'll tell you this, and it's for a good reason. Plumbing has this nasty tendency that if you do it wrong, it fails like in maybe maybe a couple days, maybe a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months, maybe a year, maybe two years. So plumbers really, really, really like to use systems that are very well proven because they know that if it breaks, you're gonna blame them because you are.
+
+[10:53] Yeah, you break it, you you pay for it. Well, they they they install it wrong, it breaks, they have to come back and fix it, basically at no extra charge. So uh so they like to do things a specific way. Now, certain of these things are are horrific. If any of you care about your children or the world, stop every plumber from installing those crappy angle valve the angle stops that have the twist knobs.
+
+[11:17] They should not be you guys know what I'm talking about? I don't feel like you've discussed this before. I have, but it's so important. No, no, no. So any any f any fixture, any water fixture uh that you have, any water fixture you have in your house has a what's called a stop, so that you can turn it off to either remove it or fix it.
+
+[11:35] And the old school of this has a stem valve on it that has to be turned multiple times, and uh and you can feel it, it's springy, it's got that nasty oval-shaped head on it, right? And uh these valves are notorious for not working, they're worthless. You can't shut them off. So if you have an old one, you'll notice that as you screw it all the way down, your faucet's still dripping, right? Because those valves, as like uh water goes through them, and whatever happens to be in your water, uh calcium carbonate, uh some other form of garbage, accretes onto the valve, and then it can't close anymore 100%.
+
+[12:09] Uh and so God invented a ball valve, a quarter turn ball valve, to fix this problem, and they never break, and they always you just reach under, and literally, it's called a quarter turn. You know why it's called a quarter turn, Nick? Do you turn it a quarter of the way? Yes. Turn it off.
+
+[12:26] Ah, yes. Yeah, you only turn it one quarter of the way. You know what else is fantastic about a quarter turn valve? The quarter turn valve handles are in a line shape. And the reason quarter turn valves are in a line shape is they provide an instant visual indication, even in relatively dark areas, whether this sucker is on or off, right?
+
+[12:46] Because, and by the way, so all of you know, anytime you see a valve with a handle on it, for the rest of your lives, any time you see any valve with a handle on it, if the handle is pointing in the direction of the pipe, that valve is on. Any time that handle is pointe perpendicular to the pipe, that valve is off. And if anyone in the world ever makes a valve that is not that worldwide standard of on and off, they need to be pilloried, right? So uh point being that even something simple as moving to quarter turn valves, which are only like fifty cents more, plumbers don't want to do it. They just because whatever, we've always installed these crappy things that are worthless, and so they do it.
+
+[13:30] Now, if you're trying to get someone to go way outside of what they do, they just don't want to do it. So Jeff has a plumbing solution, he feels to something that is a problem that we all have that we don't know that we have yet, that uh can possibly be patented. So that's where that's where we are. It is a it is there's no new creation of parts in this scenario, but there is a an agglomeration of parts in a new configuration that provides a functionality that he feels is not necessarily addressed. Now, we got Brian on the horn.
+
+[14:00] Yeah, Brian, you on the horn? I am here. All right. So, in general, so uh one thing that I think, and I want you to talk. Here's what I want you to talk about whether or not you should do a patent search, right?
+
+[14:12] Because that that's an interesting fact that people might not know that sometimes it's it's not a good idea to do a patent search. Um kind of like what in general, what can be patented, what can't be by the way, Brian's a patent attorney and uh and a food lover out there on the West Coast, just you know, just so you know. Uh and uh and so like what can be patented, what can't be patented, like what the nuances, and I'd like you to also talk because this is super interesting. You actually have dealings with the actual person who may or may not be a numbskull in DC who's reviewing the patents, the actual patent reviewer. So why don't you talk about like how you could get lucky, how you could not get lucky?
+
+[14:53] Just why don't you walk us through it a little bit? Sure, sure, yeah. So um I'll start with like what can be patented. Um generally anything that is new, uh, new processes, uh, new devices, um, new manufacturing products, uh, all that's pretty much wide open. There's a couple of caveats, uh kind of exceptions, uh, products of nature, things that are naturally occurring or kind of too abstract, uh, can't be subject to patents.
+
+[15:21] But you know, if this guy uh if Jeff has a new kind of combination of parts that has a new functionality, that's definitely kind of in the realm of things that can be patented. Um obviously there's some requirements for for patenting. You have to be new and and basically non-obvious, uh, and that has a specific legal meaning, uh, but that kind of gets into to your searching there, right? Has anyone done this before? Um, is this something that is is non-obvious?
+
+[15:49] Um the the question of whether you do your own patent search is kind of interesting because as you as you mentioned, you go to the patent office, patent application is not something that is you know just put in and you get a check or an X. It's actually a uh kind of a process with the patent office. I guess what you really have to understand about patents is you're interested in this massive bureaucracy with all these rules. Uh and there's this examiner when you in when you put in your application that uh that picks up your application, and it's his job to go out and search and find whether anybody's done this before and give you his opinion. And inevitably it is his opinion's gonna be you can't patent this, it's already been done.
+
+[16:28] I mean, that is like 95% of all the applications uh that are going to be filed. Right, but they're often wrong though. They're often like dead wrong. They'll often just pick a patent that has nothing to do with what you're actually doing and saying that that it's already there, right? I mean, that was my experience.
+
+[16:44] Well, you're in a right. But often you're getting people you know, in some art units where you're dealing with like complex chemistry or or biology, you've got PhDs on the other line who really know what they're doing. But in other art units, these are guys with just undergrad degrees or maybe even no relevant background, um, and they're gonna pick it up, and the whole impetus for them is every time they send out an action rejecting your patent, they get a little quota credit from the patent office and they basically get paid. Um so they're often doing the minimal amount of work that they can to issue a rejection. Explain what an art unit is for people.
+
+[17:24] Explain what like art, what art means in this sense. Oh, sorry, yeah. Um so art is basically just what we call prior art, which is some publication or something that's existed beforehand. So, you know, in in the case of a plumbing thing, it it might be one of those ball valves, right? Say this existed, this other one existed, someone would put it together in this way, um, and therefore it it's obvious.
+
+[17:49] So they issue they they give you a document that says we think you can't have a a patent because it's obvious, and here's the the references that show that. And so that's where an attorney steps in, or you can do it, you can do it yourself, you can do pro se negotiate with the patent office and basically explain to them why this is new and interesting and and why you should get a patent. Right now, here's another here's another tricky thing, right? Let's say you're a c like so I have an actual business, right? So for me, it's like you'd recommend by the way, Brian is not just a patent attorney, he is our patent attorney at uh at at Booker and Dax.
+
+[18:27] So just so you know, and uh, you know, at the end, give a plu you know, plug for the firm if if you want to, because uh and we'll talk more about choosing a patent attorney in a little while. But the um uh the interesting thing is if you own a business and here I'm I'm gonna tell you what you explained to me, and you say whether I'm right or I'm wrong, or you know, a add uh nuance to it. But it's it's the assumption is if you're in a particular business, let's say making kitchen equipment, that you are versed in the art because you're a practitioner, right? So you're out there, you use kitchen equipment on a daily basis, you troll the internet, you see what people are doing, you know what your competitors have done, you know what's out there, and therefore if you come up with something that you believe is novel, right, and your intention is to make it no matter what, don't do a search. Because if you do a search and it turns out that someone has patented it somewhere, right, and you have knowledge of that patent, then you are far more liable for infringing on it than if you just uh did it, applied for a patent, did it, and then um found out later that someone came and was like, hey, you infringed on my patent like that, right?
+
+[19:36] Yeah, yeah, there's so there's there's two issues there. Um, you know, one is the doing doing a search, you get a better view of what's out there. But you're right, if you're in the area, if you're already an expert, maybe you already know what's out there. Um but I do have clients that that want to do searches, get a better feel of whether they're eventually going to be successful in convincing the patent office that what they have is new and interesting. Um patenting is is gonna be is an expensive process, right?
+
+[20:02] You're you're looking at tens of thousands of dollars over a number of years. Um, and it'd be horrible if three years down the road you discover that that something spot on is there. Um and it does happen. So you can spend a little money up front and do a search uh and and find those references. I definitely recommend you use an attorney or a specialized search firm to do that because that addresses the second point, which is that that liability issue.
+
+[20:29] Um but searching can be valuable. Uh the bottom line though is it costs money and you're not required to do it, right? The whole reason you pay the patent office money is that they can send this guy off to do a search and give you his opinion. So you're not required to. Um the second issue is the liability issue that really only comes up if you're practicing, right?
+
+[20:49] So if you're not making products, if you're not actually gonna manufacture something, you're you're probably not going to be at much risk of of what we call infringing someone else's patent. Um but yeah, if you know about a patent out there, there's a statute in the law that says that whatever damages they can get if they sue you can be tripled if they can show that you were willingly infringing. And one of the aspects of that is is knowing that you knew about the patent. So yeah, search, if you find something and you say, oh my gosh, this guy patented exactly what I want to make, and then you make it anyway, you can be in hot water. So that's why if you're gonna do a search, use an attorney, get some some legal advice.
+
+[21:28] That's not something you want to do on the but if you aren't gonna make it in and there is something that you're building on, it is still patentable though, right? Yeah, so that's an interesting uh it's an interesting kind of wrinkle. There can be, you know, a lot of people think that patents are kind of this uh monolith that lets you have all rights to this idea. Um it's really not the case. You can have patents that build off each other.
+
+[21:52] So, you know, take the plumbing idea. If you're using three parts in combination to give some new functionality, that might be patentable, but each of those parts may also be patented, right? So you're left with this situation where no one can make this three-piece combination because you have a patent on it, but then you can't make the three-piece combination without actually getting rights from the people that have the patents on the three pieces. Um there can be these kind of blocking patents. Just because you have a patent doesn't mean you have all rights to go out there and manufacture it.
+
+[22:24] On a similar note, if you have internal documentation that has not been disclosed, and disclose is another technical term, by the way, of people, um, can you nullify someone's patent if you show that it's prior? Uh no, not generally. So the the law is usually uh gonna require some public disclosure. So if you have some document that you shared online five years ago, maybe that's enough. But if it's private, it's usually not gonna nullify.
+
+[22:54] Um that changed a few years ago. There was a change in the law back in uh 2012, 2013 that that changed some of that. But going forward, um private documents like that are almost never gonna be able to get rid of a patent. What if it's actually in the item you're making but's hidden from view? So like a software thing that nobody knows and you've used it as proprietary thing, but it's actually on the market already.
+
+[23:17] That nullifies a patent, doesn't it? Um so it that is an instance where it nullifies your own patent. You can't secretly use something. And this is, by the way, I'm gonna just caveat, this is a little bit of uh uh gray area. But generally speaking, if you're using something and getting uh sales from it, you even if it's secret, even if it's not public, you can't go out and patent it.
+
+[23:40] But it's not clear that somebody else could, because the whole thing about patents is public. So if you secretly use something for 20 years, like say um, you know, this is this is kind of uh a tangent, but say someone came up with the recipe for Coke and then publicly released it. And let's say that was patentable. It's possible they could get a patent on it, even though Coke has existed for for 50 years because it was secret. And then they could force Coke to pay them for it.
+
+[24:06] And it's possible, right? If that was patentable. I don't know that the the formula for Coke would ever be really patentable. Right. So we're yeah, it's possible they could get Coke to pay on to buy the patent out from it.
+
+[24:16] You wanna talk about recipes? Cause like in general, like we're always told recipes are not patentable. In what case is a formula actually patentable? Yeah, so that's a super interesting thing. I don't think it's the the case that recipes are not patentable.
+
+[24:28] I think it's just the case that there's so many recipes out there, and usually someone's done something similar. So, you know, you take some of the the modernist techniques that have come up in recent years, the use of like agar or fluid gels or hydrocolloids, most of those stemmed from industrial processes. And if you go look back, there are a lot of patents on the industrial processes. You look at um medicinal uses of of various uh various foods or herbs, those are subject to patents. You look at freeze drying or any of these like mass production things for for food that goes onto your your grocery cell, those are subject to patents.
+
+[25:08] Um if you have a truly novel recipe, it's potentially patentable. The problem is that that most of the time you're going for taste, right? You talk about this a lot on the show that you're you're optimizing for taste and experience. Um, and that's not something that patent law puts a lot of emphasis on, right? Whereas shelf life, longevity, spoilage, those are kind of things that are a little more persuasive to a patent examiner.
+
+[25:35] Right. New emulsifying systems, new new texture systems, even can be put on like low-fat systems are often patented. Uh a lot of low-fat and fat replacement systems have been patented. I know because the way that a lot of chefs like figured out how to do things in the early 2000s was reading patent literature on a constant basis. Literally, Wiley Dufresne would sit around on the computer and read patent applications for like an hour a day to find out new crap he could steal for fine dining.
+
+[26:06] Absolutely. Yeah, and I think it's also just a question of economics, right? If you're if you're just producing recipes for WD50, you're not gonna want to spend thousands of dollars patenting this because you don't really care if some guy in Australia is billing stealing your recipes. It's more of just a cultural thing. P.S.
+
+[26:24] people, that actually happened. All right. So I'm gonna I'm gonna say this because uh you know you probably can't say this, but when you're choosing a patent attorney, if you want to if you decide to patent something, and by the way, I have three applications out. I think two of them have been granted uh so far. We got one in the mix and hopefully another one coming up.
+
+[26:44] Brian, I'll talk to you about it later. Um but the uh the one of the things is is that you really really's team are going to produce the patent for you. What that means is is they're gonna sit and they're gonna talk to you about what your invention is. They're gonna render their opinions on it, and then they are gonna physically write the document out. You are not most if you hire an attorney, which I recommend you do.
+
+[27:11] Um highly recommend. Highly. Uh they are going to make the drawings, they are going to try to figure out what the claims are, um, and and all of that stuff. And it's much, much harder if the person that you're dealing with doesn't know anything about your field or doesn't care about your field. Uh, because it's very hard to get people to understand what the invention is, what the heart of the invention is, and you, even as the inventor might not understand the heart of the invention from a patent perspective.
+
+[27:42] And so I I encourage you to don't necessarily just take the first lawyer you talk to, make sure that they have a feeling for your field, right? Uh, that they have a feeling for what they think they're gonna be able to get by a patent examiner, because here's this thing you know, as Brian said, the first time, two times, three times, your patent the patent examiner is gonna come back and saying you can't get a patent, and you need a lawyer who understands your product well enough to fight for it to get the claims you want admitted, right? Because you're gonna give up on you're gonna have a whole bunch of claims saying, you know, my invention does XYZ, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The patent office, you know, uh examiner is gonna say nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And in general, it's a bit of a bargaining practice where you're gonna get rid of some claims or put some stipulations on some of your claims in order to get that patent granted.
+
+[28:33] But the more the your lawyer understands what you're doing and can be an advocate for you, not in the legal sense, but just in that sense of being an advocate for you, like the better chance are that you're gonna have a better patent or that you'll get the patent at all. Would you say that's a fair comment, Brian? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that patenting is like I say, you're entering a government bureaucracy and your only advocate is your attorney. And I think to me, one of the key aspects of a good attorney is the ability to take these complex technical inventions and distill it down to something simple and explain it in a plain English way.
+
+[29:11] Because a lot of these guys, these examiners, they work on all different technical fields. They have no idea, a lot of them don't even read the application that you file. They just read the claim. And so they don't understand. Um you've got to have someone who can go on there and within five or ten minutes not only explain the invention, but get the examiner on your side that this is a cool invention, that it's worth protecting, that it has some really good benefit.
+
+[29:35] So, you know, I think when you're looking for a patent attorney, you should be able to explain the invention to him, and he should be able to explain it back to you in a clear manner, maybe even better than you put it yourself. Because you know, you're the inventor, you're not dealing with trying to tell this story, but that's what an attorney does. That's what an application should be. Um, because that's the the bottom line is if you ever uh try to enforce a patent, you're gonna go in front of a jury. You know, twelve people with no technical background, and you're gonna need something to show them and explain to them why your invention is worth protecting.
+
+[30:07] And that's that's what a good attorney can do for you. In fact, in fact, you guys recommended a couple claims to us that we hadn't even thought of. I mean, anyway, you want to give a plug for your firm or no? Do you want people calling you? So I'm with I'm with Kenobi Martins Olson and Baer.
+
+[30:21] We're uh we're primarily on the West Coast, but we've we've moved national. We actually just opened an office in New York. So I'm gonna hopefully uh come visit you guys soon. Um hopefully we'll have a new. So I'm been here since 2010, really happy with it.
+
+[30:38] Uh great firm. All right. Nice. Thanks, Brian. Thanks for calling in.
+
+[30:41] And and uh Dave, should we take a commercial break? Yeah, let's do that. Let's take a commercial break, come back with cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm.
+
+[31:07] The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's gonna grow into a plant.
+
+[31:28] It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour.
+
+[31:48] When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the brand and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it.
+
+[32:13] Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. And we're back. Uh okay, so uh that was uh actually we haven't really talked about patenting much on on the air. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:30] So I think it's good. Hopefully, you know, it's thorough, people, you know. I it I think it's been worthwhile for us to have it done, don't you think, Stas? Yeah, definitely. And by the way, when you patent something, even if you work at a company, the patent goes in your name, and then uh but it's owned by the company you work for.
+
+[32:45] Yes, you sign away your rights to it. Yeah, so it's like, you know, it feels good though. It feels good. So uh Nick, Nick had a question. Yeah, the first name of your law firm, Kenobi.
+
+[32:57] Yeah, I think Brian hung up, but yeah, first name Kenobi, they're like the they're like patent Jedi's. That's what that's their their stick. When you trust, it's basically Brian's like, hey, listen. Literally, he called, he's like, hey, I listened to your show and some of your complaints about patenting. He's like, let's, you know, let's talk.
+
+[33:13] I'm a patent lawyer, and then when he was like, I work and in Kenobi, I'm like, okay. Done. Done. Sold, done. Uh, I don't actually know if it's spelled that way.
+
+[33:22] Is it? Ah, you know what? They changed their name when they when they made it to Ellis Island, they changed their name away from the Jedi name because the guy couldn't write it down right. Is there a patent on Kenobi? There should be.
+
+[33:36] Well, you know about the Obi Wan Kenobi jokes, right? No. You don't know about Obi-Wan Kenobi? Oh my god. Well, off air, because we've done that on air before, right?
+
+[33:45] Kenobi jokes? Yeah, you've yeah. It's racist. It's not racist. Why would it be racist?
+
+[33:49] I'm trying to remember which jokes. It's like uh, you know, um it's like like Temple of Doom racist. That's like super racist. No, it's like a Kenobi Kenobi jokes are like when you just like use his name and you mess around with it like uh, you know, what what Jedi is always in the desert? What?
+
+[34:07] Gobi Wan Kenobi. Or like, you know, uh what you know what um what Jedi uh likes to cut hair? Flobi Wan Kenobi. Or like and just keep going on and you you can you can come up with like hundreds and hundreds of of like Obi-Wan jokes. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:26] But why would you? Like uh when it, you know, what Jedi believes that knowing is half the battle? No. G.I. Jo Bi Wan Kenobi.
+
+[34:34] For those of you that watch uh the G.I. Joe cartoons. Yeah, what he's doing. All I'm saying, I'm not saying that I'm recommending this, but I'm saying when you're sitting around, like working, like at some point in your life, you'll just start rattling off Obi-Wan jokes, and then the person next to you, like five minutes later, it's not that anyone's laughing. It's not a la it's you don't laugh, but the person next to you five minutes later will say something like, you know, something they'll say another Obi-Wan channel.
+
+[35:01] Do it. Do one, Nick. No. Eventually, in like five minutes, he will do one. That's what's gonna happen, my guess.
+
+[35:07] I mean, he's gonna you know what? Nick is one of those guys, he's not gonna do as soon as we wrap, yeah, he's gonna have a job, he's gonna have an Obi-Wan joke. At lunch today, we're gonna be eating that new uh pizza with whatever it is. What was it against us? Ursula.
+
+[35:14] Ursula, yeah, Ursula. And then he's gonna bust out an Obi-Wan joke about like some sort of clan-based Obi-Wan joke or some sort of like octopus-based or pizza-based Obi-Wan joke. A Moby joke. Ooh, Moby? I've never done Moby.
+
+[35:33] But like, yeah, like uh like a what you know, vegetarian musician Jedi would be a Moby, would be Moby Wan Kenobi. So you could do any, you could do any sort of like um you know, like uh, you know, what Jedi has constipation, no Gobi-Wan Kenobi. Like you can go you could do anything. It's like it's it's just I mean, I think you guys get the the basic pattern of the Obi-Wan joke. Anyway.
+
+[36:00] It's not a joke, it's just a thing anyway. So uh I mentioned this a little bit uh last week. Tim Rupar wrote in, and I'm gonna say it again just because might as well go through it. Uh question, why Celsius? I understand metric measurements and weight and volume, but it seems like Fahrenheit is more precise than Celsius.
+
+[36:16] And last week, I believe I just said cause. Tim, you got any uh thoughts on this? Nope. How do you cook? Do you cook in Celsius or you cook in Fahrenheit?
+
+[36:25] Uh depends on what it is. Me too. So what do you cook in Celsius? I I'll be judging you by the way. Um I mean, typically meats I do in um Fahrenheit.
+
+[36:34] Really? Um so steak is in Fahrenheit? Yeah, just because I'm not dealing with people that are that know about that stuff a lot, so it's easier to translate on, you know, to medium rare and rare for what they know, right? Right. Okay, okay.
+
+[36:48] So what do you cook in Celsius? Um you cook in Fahrenheit. Yeah. Uh listen, I really think it just has to do with um I think it just has to do with whatever you whatever you grew up with. It it's it's actually more.
+
+[37:10] Right. So even though a Celsius degree is in fact nine fifths larger than a Fahrenheit degree, it's no more or less precise because uh I can just easily quote decimals in in Celsius. And in fact, I mean um it's rare to go decimal in Celsius, but it's rare to require anything that goes decimal in Celsius. The only thing is like if the 63 degree egg is the only thing really that I've ever had to use kind of decimals. And then frankly, some stakes, like uh you can a decimal higher or lower can make a difference at service time because of just where it's gonna get on finish, but in general, the decimal is not that important as Celsius degree is pretty much good enough.
+
+[37:52] What do you think, Nick? Yeah, I feel the same way. Use Fahrenheit for most conventional stuff, because that's what all all of our ovens are calibrated at, like 400 Fahrenheit or whatever. Um a lot of circular stuff mainly uh you find resources in Celsius, though. Right.
+
+[38:07] And so I mean just go with that one. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that A, circulators are science pieces, and the circulators speak Fahrenheit if you want them to, by the way. So that this is like kind of a little bit of a but they are a scientific instrument, and so most people who use them professionally use them in Celsius. Most uh like low temperature work really came to this country through Europe, uh through Spain primarily, even though Bruno Gusseau is kind of like the you know granddaddy of uh low temperature cooking, uh, or as he calls it, juscat. Just catin.
+
+[38:43] Because he's not like language is that French. He's like, he's like, it's not that it's low temperature, it's the correct temperature. Just gather. Anyway, but like uh he's like he's like that. He uh his voice doesn't sound like that, but that is what he's like.
+
+[38:56] Um Booker, you should know you speak French now. I mean, I I never heard that word. No. Uh Booker has shoved the microphone into his eye socket. Uh anyway, so like the point being that uh you you know, so because most of that stuff came in via um because most of that stuff came in via uh Europe, it's Celsius.
+
+[39:17] And uh at the time, you know, uh cooking schools, I was teaching at the French Culinary Institute, so all of my work was in Celsius because I was dealing with Frenchies, and those guys ain't uh cooking in uh in Fahrenheit anyway. Um also placing my first order from modernist pantry, uh and one of Booker, when you clear your throat there, go away from the microphone. Gotta gotta teach Booker some microphone etiquette. You know what I mean? Sorry.
+
+[39:41] Yeah, all right. Uh no, yeah, it's fine. You know, it's fine. You know what the last time you were on, people enjoyed having you on. Oh, and they might enjoy me this time.
+
+[39:49] That's true. And we'll find out. Uh and but you know what the truth is, is no one would say if they didn't, because it would be incredibly rude. That's one of the reasons why I thought it would be really good to have the bar named after you and your brother, because as soon as people are like, well, you name it Booker and Dex be like, those are my children's names, and then they shut up. See what I'm saying?
+
+[40:05] Like my whole selfish. Yeah, my whole life is based around getting people to just like to kind of cut off criticism, right? If you design your work around cutting off criticism, like you end up like having less criticism to deal with, right? Non-constructive criticism. You want constructive criticism, but like that's why like a little bit of self-deprecation can cut off criticism.
+
+[40:27] It's like you know what I mean? And it just it's a it's a tactic I use to try to prevent people from uh bothering me about things that I don't want to be bothered about. Do you know what I'm saying? Why are you such a terrible person? Because I'm a low quality individual.
+
+[40:38] There you go. There you go. Done. Cut off discussion. Done.
+
+[40:42] Yeah. Uh okay. I'm placing my first order from Mono's pantry and wanted some advice. I'm getting pectinx. My older son Henry likes the jarred mandarin oranges, and I can't justify spending four dollars on a jar if there is a better option.
+
+[40:56] What? What was the question? Who's older son Henry? Uh uh uh this person, Tim, who wrote in a question. That's what we dir that's what we're doing here.
+
+[41:05] People are writing and calling in questions and we are answering them. That is how this works. Um I can't justify spending four dollars on a jar. Who spends four dollars on a jar of mandarin oranges? Buy the like poorly named geisha brand is the cheapest brand in my supermarket.
+
+[41:20] Poorly named. I love a mandarin orange, though. Yeah. I love a mandarin orange. You like a man in an orange, Nick?
+
+[41:26] Oh yeah. Tim? Chinese chicken salad? Oh, uh, uh Chinese chicken salad. All right.
+
+[41:32] All right, see he's like Nick Wong is here and he's looking at me because he wants to say something he can, he wants me to say something that he can pounce on me for one way or to other, right? He wants me to say he wants to go with something so that he can bust out, he wants he wants to bust out a uh an offensive Chinese accent and then blame me for it. He made me buy the mandarin orange soda all the time, remember? Oh, he okay. Nastasia Lopez has just lied.
+
+[42:00] So Nastasia Lopez would go to a supermarket and buy the horrible, horribly flavored mandarin seltzer water. The stuff is garbage, right? Uh I mean, I think so. Uh fake tasting. To me, you might love it.
+
+[42:16] Do you love it? Anyway. So Nastasia is like, buys it for him, and then Nick goes. Say it, Nick. Mandarin.
+
+[42:24] And then hands him, and like every time, like every week for years. She would come buy you this stuff and be like, Mandarin, you're people. And then that, right? Am I wrong about this? Yeah.
+
+[42:35] And then she was pretty accurate. And she would make you ask. I mean, I still drink it because it's delicious, but. You like that stuff? Yeah.
+
+[42:42] Okay, let me ask you this. First sip, good. Yeah. Last sip? I'm thirsty.
+
+[42:49] That's right. I'm just thirsty. Regular seltzer is good the whole way. My main gripe with flavored seltzers, and John DeBerry, who, you know, loves flavored seltzers, I feel he is a paid by the LaCroix Corporation. They never taste good down to the last drop.
+
+[43:04] They don't they don't like pass the Maxwell House test. I feel like that depends on the size of your bottle. It's a big bottle. Yeah, Nastasia gets you the two liters because we're always using them for events. Tim, what are your thoughts on the flavored seltzers?
+
+[43:18] I mean, one, yeah, once they get warm, it kind of. Yeah. Right. And and you just want regular seltzer anyway. Just lots of bubbles.
+
+[43:26] I do. I feel like I feel like we would get along. All right. So anyway, so first of all, we feel everyone here feels you're spending too much money on your mandarin oranges. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that.
+
+[43:36] Uh uh, also considering purchasing sodium citrate, presumably for cheese, right? For cheese melting, I'm presuming. Uh and ever crisp breader, which I haven't actually used. Have you used that one, Nick? Not that specific brand.
+
+[43:50] Yeah, I mean, you know what the God's truth is is that like I don't have a problem making like breading crispy. I also don't have a problem getting breading the stick. Like everybody has these problems. I do not have these problems. Like, bread, I can make breading as hard or as soft as or as as crisp as I want it to be.
+
+[44:12] I will I'm glad to add additives to it. But most of the time, like breading additives are there because they expect some form of abuse during the frying and storing and re frying procedure. And it's the abuse that the additive is guarding against, right? Excessive oil take because of improper frying technique, add this. Uh excessive oil uptake because of multiple frying on something that shouldn't be multiple, because remember, the oil is sucked into the coating as the sucker cools down.
+
+[44:45] So if you do uh a double fry on something that's like a Korean fried chicken, not a problem because it doesn't have a thick absorptive layer on the outside. You do a double fry on a French fry, not only not a problem, necessary, right? Do a double fry on a thick breaded chicken, like like a Popeye style fried chicken, and you can get into some issues with oil uptake. You know what I mean? Or like double triple fry like on a cake donut base.
+
+[45:13] Uh yeast donut base can actually withstand a refry because it's got that kind of like uh you know less porous surface on on it, but but like um so my point being that a lot of times recipes just don't need it. What do you think, Nick? I think you're aiming for something very specific, but I mean I've never really needed to go like that next level on like you know, industrial scale volume or something like that, where you gotta deal with all these variables, just tell the clicks to do it right. I mean, some things that are like not good, like most tempura or things that don't stick, like I don't know, green beans, pickles, like yeah, sure, batter bind, like all anything you can do to make those things that are inherently problematic work. Things like foods that have the improper moisture ratio to them so that the stuff's inherently terrible, yeah.
+
+[46:03] Some form of like self-gelling or protective batter coating, great, but I don't know, whatever. But by the way, I'm not telling you not to buy that, I'm just mentioning. Uh, just wondering if you had any other thoughts on things I should get as I'm just starting out. I don't have access to the full modernist cuisine series, but I do have modernist cuisine at home. And then what do you like?
+
+[46:20] Look, my feeling is always this. If there's two reasons to get into this, one, you want to pull off a particular recipe because you think it's cool and you want to try it just for giggles, right? In which case, just buy whatever you need for that recipe. Second, is you actually want to learn how to cook a particular way, in which case choose an ingredient and then work that ingredient to death. Preferably choose an ingredient that has a lot of application and then branch out from that one.
+
+[46:46] I always start with agar. I always tell everyone if you're gonna get into this, start with agar. You can buy it almost anywhere, uh, and you can um do a lot with agar, right? You could do fluid gels with agar, you can do clarifications with agar, you can do uh you can make gels with agar, you can modify the gel texture of agar to get um to get softer textures if you want. You can do a lot with Agar.
+
+[47:11] Uh Agar withstands a good amount of heat. Then if you like what Agar does, then move into Gen An. Gelan has a bunch of other applications and very good flavor release. If you're interested uh in, you know, foams, get like whatever your favorite foamer is and work with that for a while before you branch into multiple foamers. I think it's I'm a big fan of really getting to know an ingredient rather than getting a boat ton of ingredients and just start throwing them into recipes as you go, just because you know it's when you're messing with more than one thing at a time, it's really hard to understand what it's doing unless you have a lot of experience with it.
+
+[47:45] What do you guys think? What about meat glue? Oh, meat glue, yeah. That's a good one. Meat glue is awesome.
+
+[47:52] Uh I feel that pe I don't hear as much about transglutaminase as I did maybe like four or five years ago. But I think it's in incredibly awesome because one, it's really good for uh fun special effects at home, and two, it's really good for certain kinds of restaurant service for uh portion control and for I mean I think like a most of the time in a restaurant you're not gonna do the special effects stuff, right, Nick? No. Most of the time not. Um but like uh, you know, like I like it like uh, you know, uh taking the piece of cartilage out of the steak and gluing it back together.
+
+[48:30] I think that's a good application. I don't know that like restaurants are gonna do it a lot, but uh I mean I think it can be helpful for certain cuts, certain ideas, and you know, it's certainly a lot of fun, you know. Here we got time for one more. Um let me rip through this, let me rip through uh Tim's last question here. Professionally I work in a small college and I'm broaching the topic of getting our kitchen and immersion circulator.
+
+[48:53] We have a lot of trouble with our cooks destroying the chicken breasts at the school. This is professionally, right? Uh destroying the chicken breasts uh at this we put out daily, uh sometimes coming out of the oven at 195 degrees Fahrenheit. That's warm. That's warm.
+
+[49:06] Yeah. That's warm. Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius? That yeah, Fahrenheit, but still that Celsius, that would be crazy. But the internal of the chicken breast coming out at 195, I think you you you've you've done it.
+
+[49:16] It's safe. It's it's safe. It's it's it's safe. But you know why it's safe? Because you can't eat it anymore.
+
+[49:22] The safest food is food that you can't eat. You know what I mean? Because uh anyway. So I thought this might provide a nice solution. Are there any other general applications I can use to sell them on this?
+
+[49:31] We're feeding 700 to 900 students, so it's gotta be something that can scale way up. Now you ain't feeding 700 people out of a circulator. No way. No way. The biggest thing you can reasonably do in a circulator, it I mean what you really want for that number of students.
+
+[49:44] I know your budget is zero. You want a combi oven. Like, especially because for for that kind of work that you're doing, like uh if you're not doing special effect work, like the f the way combi ovens work is they oscillate in temperature, and so the outside of your meat's never gonna be as accurate, but the core temperature of your meat is gonna be very fairly accurate for something like a chicken breast for students where you don't mind a couple degrees over, like combi oven, combi oven. Nick, combi oven combi oven slightly cheaper than a combi oven, but a lot larger than a circulator in terms of its volume, CVAP oven, right? Get a CVAP combi steamer, you're looking at a couple thousand dollars, but you can keep everything warm very safely.
+
+[50:24] It's designed to keep stuff warm in a very safe manner, and they can cook relatively large quantities, they just don't cook as quickly as a combi oven because it can't push the temperature as fast in. It's not as powerful, so it's gonna take a lot longer for your product to come up to temp in a in a in a uh CVAP, but it uses a lot less electricity, so it's a lot uh it's a I mean, how much does your combi oven suck down or did did your combi oven suck down? It's like a small house, like your combi oven alone takes up more power than an entire house. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're crazy.
+
+[50:54] Um, so I I would I I would do something like that. I just don't think you'd you'd need to get probably five or six circulators going all the time to serve that many people, and you'd still be like swimming in water and and and and all that kind of stuff. Um anyway, so there's that I don't have any more time for to deal with Scott's smoke question. Like like a couple minutes. Oh man, which one should we do?
+
+[51:19] She won you want to talk about smoke or you want to talk about outdoor cooking, Nick? Smokey Wanko. Which is shorter. What? Smokey Wankenovi.
+
+[51:26] Smokey Wankinovi. The uh yeah, what what Jedi works in this? Yeah, I get yeah, the ham curing. Uh by the way, before I get to this, had last week uh Cesare Casella's new uh ham. Delicious, delicious.
+
+[51:42] So in a world where a smokehouse burns down, because remember, S. Wallace Edwards burned down a couple of years ago or a year ago, uh, and he used to buy all of Patrick Martin at Heritage uh, you know, you know, uh fearless leader, Patrick Martin Heritage Foods, by his Berkshire pork, which was really heavily marbled. And when it burnt down, it was so bad. Literally, wild dogs were running up to the smoldering ruins of Sam's uh Sam Edwards smokehouse and eating these hams. There's like pictures of wild dogs eating these hams, these partially cured and hung hams.
+
+[52:11] It's just a tragedy, it's a nightmare. Uh but Patrick needed to sell all these uh hams, these like fresh hams, so Cesare Casella bought them all and has cured them, and it's now making very delicious. It's prosciutto style, so it's not American style, but very heavily marbled, good stuff. So maybe we'll have uh you want to have Cesare on the show sometime, Nastasia? And before I finished out, I want everyone to know this.
+
+[52:34] This, what you're listening to right now, is our 299th episode. So, what does that make our next episode? Booker? You're the math man. What does that make our next episode?
+
+[52:44] What did you say again? Booker, I feel you could take over Nastasia's job for not listening. But the uh this is our 299th episode. So what's our next episode? 300.
+
+[52:56] So next next week is the 300th episode. What's our choices, Dave? Uh well, remember, a family show. So uh, you know, this could it could either end very well or very poorly. But if you have any suggestions for what we should do for next week, I mean, I guess it sounds like because I talked about that, I'll be talking about outdoor cooking.
+
+[53:15] And by the way, uh about the outdoor cooking. We have um I have a question on opera cake, right? Which I guess we should get to next week. Hopefully, uh the competition is not before next week, because this person's doing uh maybe I'll do that real quick because they might have a com Do we have a time for it? No.
+
+[53:30] Oh, listen. Listen, listen. Okay, okay. I will tell I will talk about it next week, or maybe I'll tweet something out. Uh, hopefully your competition is not for next week, because I have some good suggestions for you, including tips from Iron Chefs.
+
+[53:41] What? Why didn't you start with this question? Because I'm stupid. Anyway, cooking issues. Yes, you are.
+
+[53:59] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio.
+
+[54:20] Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[54:44] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is sponsored by Bob's Red Mill. With natural foods, they support organic, vegan, paleo, and gluten-free lifestyles. Learn more about their commitment to good food for all at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We are a member supported nonprofit food radio station.
+
+[0:27] That means that every single thing we do, from broadcasting 35 weekly shows for free to bringing you exclusive content from sold-out food events across the country to offering scholarships to high school students is only possible thanks to the support of our loyal members. And we want you to join the club. Become a member during our 2017 summer drive to get access to sweet swag and pledge your support to the world's only food radio station. Visit Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate to become a member now. And here we are, folks, at episode 300.
+
+[1:34] We got everybody's, everybody's favorite punching bag. Peter Cam people. Peter Cam in the house. What's up, guys? I feel like um the fearless leader.
+
+[1:45] I feel like one of the bad guys on WWF. You know what I mean? If you're a bad guy, are you more of a Boris Badnoff, more of a Dick Dastardly, more of a like whatever? I'm thinking old school, man. Like, you know, Randy, Matuman Savage.
+
+[2:00] Like a wrestler, not like a cartoon. You definitely want to be. Yeah. Wait, but what about I mean, okay, that's a good choice. And I like choosing someone that's dead, but you also now have Rowdy Roddy Piper to choose from, as being as being your your favorite dead bad guy wrestler.
+
+[2:17] And what and you would choose Macho Man? Yeah, Macho Man. Alright, fair. Macho Man, Peter Kim. I like that.
+
+[2:22] That's very good. Uh got uh also, obviously, as usual, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. On the phone as usual. Good. Yeah, she's sitting there tweeting away, whatever the hell is you doing.
+
+[2:32] She's managing your social media presence. Yeah, I'm not sure. Uh Nastasia Lopez has never ever gone. People think, oh, she No, no, she doesn't she doesn't handle any of that crap. What she's doing is buying shoes on Tablets.
+
+[2:43] That's not true. I hate having emails. I was like, reading emails? Why don't you give us a subject title? What's the point of deleting?
+
+[2:51] Annual board meeting for the Museum of Food and Drinks. So you're busy deleting emails. Just quickly so that I can focus on the show. Oh, that's a lie. Got Dave in the booth.
+
+[3:00] How are you doing, Dave? Good. How are you doing? Happy 300. Thank you.
+
+[3:03] Thank you. So 300, you know what that is? Entirely too many. You laughed and we just looked at each other. No, you're giving yourself too much credit.
+
+[3:15] Nastasi didn't look over at you. Oh listen, call in your 300 episode uh questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh yeah. So what else?
+
+[3:29] By the way, people, we've mentioned this on the show before. Nastasia and I are anxious to try to we're gonna try to start a new show. We talked about this, right? Ruining dinner, like discussions that you can't have at dinner with people you disagree with, things like politics, religion, all this. The problem is Nastasi and I are also incredibly busy, and so we haven't had time to kind of book anyone.
+
+[3:48] So if any of you out there, yeah, well, if anyone has any suggestions of political suggestions, but you know what? It would be fun to get Rance Previs on after he got fired from being White House Chief of Staff. Connections. Connections, right? Like, you know, like you know, yeah, I would love to I would love to pick Rance Previs's brain over a couple glasses of wine over what that McGill was like.
+
+[4:07] Would you have uh the scaramooch on? Would you have the master mooch? For those of you that are listening later, like this episode is taping like right after the kind of 10-day whirlwind of vulgarity that was Scaramucci as the White House communications director, which was which was I mean, I think regardless of where you are in the political spectrum, just an epic performance on his part. I mean, just like an intense an intense ten days. Pretty special.
+
+[4:37] Oh, yeah. I mean, the guy, you know, I think during that 10-day period, he became communications director, like got filed for divorce, had a son. I had a son, yeah. Right, used the most crazy vulgarian language ever to come out of a communications department from the White House, like, you know, because remember, LBJ, when he was cursing at people and like making people take meetings while he was on the toilet, like with major flatulge issues, like that was in private. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:05] Like he did that to embarrass people in private, right? Like this is like a public thing, and then fired all in a 10 day period. It's the best. And he got two people he pushed two people out. Yeah, and threatened to fire the entire staff.
+
+[5:16] Well, amazing. Yeah. I mean, amazing. Amazing theater. Um, regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, amazing theater.
+
+[5:26] Um, okay, so let's get you want to get to some questions? Yeah, you want to take a call? Yeah, call her. You're on the air. Um, how's it going, Dave?
+
+[5:33] Going well. Fans, first time caller. Nice. What do you got for us? Um, I got I I actually have like the first one is you I can't hear you too well.
+
+[5:45] Talk uh talk more into the uh into your mic. Is it can you hear me now? Yeah, yep. Is it possible to make um tahiti powder using entorbit and tapioca masyl djectin? Yes.
+
+[5:58] Uh there's no water. You said tahini, right? There's no water in tahini. The main issue with um the main issue with um enzorbit uh brand tapioca maltodextrin, the main mistake people make is they try to mix things in that have any sort of liquid. So any sort of when I say liquid, I mean water based liquid.
+
+[6:18] So like oils, liquid oils are okay, like olive oil works. So uh I've I'm not sure whether I've done sesame uh or not. Uh maybe have, like over the years. Um the main issue you're gonna have is uh, you know, tahini is like depends on what brand you get, but like tahini tends to compact into a very kind of dense puck. Don't worry about the solids.
+
+[6:42] Because remember, peanut butter works. So you but I wouldn't try to mix it by hand. I would pulse it in in uh in like a Queas Nart or a RoboCoup or similar, and you always have to get a lot more enzorbit powder than you'd think. Like a lot more. I mean, the whole point of Nsorbit powder is that it is a bulking agent.
+
+[6:59] So you requires vast amounts to make a relatively small amount of powder, but it should work. Nice. So I I got I got the four hundred gram pack from Mother News Pantry, so that should be plenty, right? Oh yeah. I mean, four hundred grams is like, you know, 400 grams.
+
+[7:16] Yeah, it's bigger than a football. I mean, 400 grams is a lot of enzorbit. I mean, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but it it probably looks like an orange juice container full, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[7:26] So like I said, it like like there's one size of orange juice container, moron. So they but yes, this that should be like more than enough. But just so you know, in general, what you do is you you start the the uh the um the queas nart, don't use too much tahini at the g start so that you kind of get a feel for what's kind of going on. You need enough for the for the cuisinar to actually start working, and then start adding the uh ensorbit. At first you'll think it's not working because it's gonna turn into a thicker and thicker, thicker paste, and then all of a sudden it's gonna break from a paste into kind of a powdery thing, and then as you add more, it'll just powder more.
+
+[8:01] So it should work. Right. Perfect. That's on awesome. Alrighty, have it.
+
+[8:06] Yep. The second question was I have two daughters, and I would want I've been finding to find a way to make green eggs, like the green eggs and ham from Dr. Snooze. Sure. And on the application uh my wife has come with me.
+
+[8:22] It's like maybe try to inject some um some color to the yolk, some blue coloring to the yolk. I don't know if that's possible, if it'll break the membrane and it's gonna because I know you can make them like green green green eggs, campbell and ham, but I want to have like the white yolk, the white um egg white and the green egg yolk. Right. So I'll tell you a story very quickly. When I was a child, I read uh obviously, as we all did, green eggs and ham, classic.
+
+[8:54] And I told my grandma that I was gonna be fine with the green eggs in hand, that I wouldn't have the problems that Sam Iam had. And by the way, I'm not a picky kid, like I would eat anything like escargot, whatever. So after a lot of cajoling, she actually made me the green eggs and ham. And you know what? I was like, uh I can't eat that.
+
+[9:14] Like I looked at it like as a little kid. I was maybe like uh eight. I was like, oh man, I can't, I can't do that. I can't. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:23] I can't. Yeah. Um what I would do is if you want to do a fried egg, you can just drip food coloring over the top, which is what my grandma did, but it doesn't work so well. Um I'm trying to remember uh how like how well that stuff infuses. Clearly, if you're doing like a pickled egg into with beets, for instance, the red goes ver goes fairly deep, but you have to soak it for a while, right?
+
+[9:52] So in a raw egg, I'm imagining that your transport might be uh as long as it goes through the shell, which I think it will, um, or you could, you know, you could poke a hole where the air hole is and stuff and then like put the food coloring in and then just let it sit in some very saturated food color for a while, and it might permeate it. I don't know how much it will permeate it, but what do you think, Peter? You think it'll permeate? I think he's talking about having the egg white stay. No, he wants the whole thing green, I thought.
+
+[10:20] You want the white white, or you want the white green and just the yolk just a yolk. Right, it would be the yolk white and uh uh egg white white and uh yolk um green. Okay, here's what you do then. Separate the eggs, um, separate the eggs into whites and and yolks, then um macerate the yolks in uh concentrated green food coloring, right? Although technically uh you should be able to use just blue and get it to go green, but whatever.
+
+[10:55] Play around till you get a color that you like. Then put a ring on your griddle uh and pour like the appropriate amount of egg white into the ring, uh and then after it's starts to set up a little bit, but pretty soon because you want to cook through, gently with uh a spoon, lift one of your macerated egg yolks out. Uh take the bottom of the spoon, put it against a paper towel so that you're not gonna mar the white with any of the green from the from scooping it out of the solution, and then gently just poop right on top of the uh egg white. And then afterwards, finish it off with your sears all. I like the way you think, Fuel.
+
+[11:38] Um, there you go. There you go, bingo. Uh, you know, it might affect the color. I would t I would test first, uh, but that's definitely that's definitely the way to the way to do it. And the egg yolks should be fine for the amount of time it takes to uh macerate them.
+
+[11:58] Good luck getting your daughters to eat it though. I mean, maybe they will. Look, the way my grandma did it, it looked pretty janky, but something about it being green, just in your the reason the green eggs and ham is so bad is because it evokes spoilage. That's what it is. So, like, you know, and I had recently, it took me about 20 years to be able to eat cream donuts because I ate a moldy cream donut once.
+
+[12:21] I took a j and I eat very quickly, even when I was a kid, I ate very quickly. I ate a red beer loves mold. Ruined it. Ruined it. I took a giant bite out of a moldy cream donut, and the cream was all moldy on the inside.
+
+[12:31] And so I couldn't have cream donuts for 20 years. And like wretching thinking about you doing that. Yeah, and moldy things in general, things that evoked mold for a long time were very difficult for me. You know? Dave unhinges his jaw when he eats.
+
+[12:44] Yeah. Yeah. So like basically I can take down half it, even like as a small child. Like take down half a jelly donut in like one or two bites. So like by the time my brain registers.
+
+[12:54] Did it taste nasty? I I threw up. Yeah, by the time, but the problem is that like by the time you register, oh my god, something's horribly wrong, there's a bunch of it in your mouth. You know what I mean? Because it's like, you know what I mean?
+
+[13:11] And and like at the time, I still remember where it was. My mom was, I must have been very young, because my mom was in med school, so I had to have been like five, four, or five. And we got it in the crappy like cafeteria where all the med students bought the garbage food that they ate while they were staying up, and my mom was trying to study, and I just slot solid on went into this thing. It's like, oh man, man, bad news. Moldy, moldy donuts.
+
+[13:36] You know, still to this day, someone hands me a cream donut, I will eat it. I will never choose a cream donut. I will eat it. I will never choose it. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:46] No, not my thing. But anyway, so uh I now love cream donuts. Just because I have a problem. Yeah, naturally. Peter's just a taste.
+
+[13:53] Yeah, he has to. This is the way Peter is. This is why we this is why we love to hate him. This is why he's the he's the uh macho man Randy Savage slash Emperor Palpatine of the Yeah. Uh we got like the cold wrap.
+
+[14:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Peter and Peter's just a low quote low-quality individual all around. He doesn't even have a shirt. I gotta buy you a uh a low-quality individual shirt, Peter. Will you wear it if I buy you one?
+
+[14:15] Of course. All right. Uh all right. So listen, uh, tweet on back to cooking issues. Let me know how the green egg yolks works out.
+
+[14:21] Yeah, take a picture and tweet it over to me, all right? I'm sorry, babe. All right, fine. I'll go one thing. You too.
+
+[14:26] Uh I'd like to uh shout out a thank you to uh Derek Bodkin for making the shut up dad ringtone a reality. So it's on my phone. Now, whenever Booker calls me, so Nastasia, have text Booker to call me and I'll leave my ringer on and so that you know we can hear the ringtone. And just in the middle of the show, you'll just hear him yell shut up dad via my new ringtone, which is awesome. So now I have Peter's uh amazing ringtone, which is no child wants to play with a Peter in the box.
+
+[14:56] And I have Nastasia's ringtone, which is You are Mean to Me. And then I have I have now uh Booker's ringtone. I need to get like specialized ringtones for everyone. I don't have one for Dax. Dax doesn't have anything mean that he does to me on like a regular basis.
+
+[15:10] I I remember you used to have that really sadistic one of me burning my hands on the puffing gun. That's for everybody else. That's for everybody else. And yeah, I remember your your kids asking me at some point, like, why does my dad like the sound of you in pain so much? I don't like that Oh nice.
+
+[15:27] There we go. Wow. Crazy time. I don't it's not that I like this, it's not that I it's not that I like it. It's just like it was a moment in time.
+
+[15:36] Right, Nastasia? That brings you pleasure because I was in extreme pain. It doesn't bring me any clear like a girl screaming. That's what I'm saying. No, no, like a young, like a young young girl.
+
+[15:47] Yeah. Yeah. Or it could be a young boy, because young boys and young girls sound very similar. Yeah. Pre-pubescent.
+
+[15:54] Family show. Yes, family show. All right. Another call? Uh, sure, call her, you're on the air.
+
+[16:01] Hey, Dave Nastasha, Peter and Dave. Happy 300th episode. Thank you. Thanks. We should pop this.
+
+[16:07] Uh let's see. So this is Chris Paul from BC. I have a question about fermentation and proofing. So I've been making a lot of yogurt, and I'm trying to I was interested in making that uh salt risen bread. Oh, yeah, nice.
+
+[16:25] But I've got nowhere to uh to keep these things where they're gonna stay at a consistent temperature for a long time, right? Right. So I was looking at uh maybe uh I was looking online for some sort of fermentation chamber, and I saw some stuff on the fresh loaf about converting a chest freezer, and some stuff about people using a cambro and putting a heating pad in it. But uh what do you think is the best way to do that? Some sort of DIY how much kitchen space do you have and how much you here for here's some examples.
+
+[16:58] For instance, it's not actually hyperaccur, but let's say in the future someday you might want to get into dehydrating. An excaliber makes a good uh excaliber dehydrator, makes a good off-the-shelf solution. It's not super accurate, but when you're doing salt risen bread, the trick is obviously you keep it uh like covered so it doesn't uh dehydrate inside of the dehydrator, but you can get fairly accurate temperatures. When I was doing it, I was doing it in an X caliber. Um you then yeah, I mean depends on like you know, uh converting a freezer says to me that you want to do this a lot.
+
+[17:33] And I don't know if you do want to do it a lot. I mean, the good thing about a freezer is is that in between things, because remember, when you're doing salt-risen bread, for those of you that don't know, salt-risen bread is actually the leavening, the leavening uh agent is Clostridium perfringens. So it's like a a um uh a pathogen. And so, you know, uh in fact, the original one of the original studies to study it uh literally took uh like gangrene bacteria off of a World War I trench victim and used it to make salt-risen bread. Uh and it has a very specific odor to it uh when it's kind of uh fermenting.
+
+[18:12] So uh you're gonna want to be able to thoroughly clean out anything that you uh do this. So freezers are good in that respect, but then you're gonna need, like you said, a heating pad or a heating element and some form of PID controller. None of that's extraordinarily complicated. I mean, it's been a number of years since I've had to, you know, recommend uh a PID controller to someone, but Aubur Instruments has a bunch of inexpensive ones that you could get away with. And really, if you have a like a heating element, you can convert any old box because you don't need a lot of uh power to do this.
+
+[18:45] You're only talking about taking it up to like I forget what the number is, but something approaching 90 degrees uh Fahrenheit, right? Something in that range. Um once you have one of these chambers though, you can do lots of other stuff. So you do yogurt. I really like uh doing like the the mixed mode rice fermentations for either like Korean or Chinese um beverages, those are good.
+
+[19:08] And also FYI, my dad used to call uh used yogurt making yogurt as uh the euphemism for pooping in children that were still of diaper age making yogurt. Um but um says put that into your heads, maybe you can't forget it. But uh, yeah, so any of those scenarios would work, but if you were ever gonna get a dehydrator and you don't want to make a lot of this, like you're making just a couple of loaves for the house, it's nice having a dehydrator around. I use it a case, you know, I'm not using it 100% of the time because I'm not one of these raw food people. Uh but um I like it.
+
+[19:40] I like having a dehydrator. But but it's a more expensive investment, but it's more versatile to have around than you know, this Canberra with a bunch of wires coming out of it, which is also a fine thing. Okay, great. Yeah, I'll look into that. Thank you.
+
+[19:57] Hey, no problem. Let us know how it works and send us a picture of your salt-risen bread. I actually really like salt risen bread. Um, but there's also a website, I forget the person's name who runs it, I forget what forget what who she is, but she's like somewhere down in Virginia or something like that. Has a whole website devoted to salt-risenbread.
+
+[20:12] Anyway. Um, cool, let us know what happens. Um we should answer some uh well, Dave, you just last week's questions. Jeez, Louise, Nastasia. Well, are you gonna open this?
+
+[20:23] You gonna say what we're doing while we get the next question up? Or are you just gonna sit there and eat grapes and answer emails? Why should the 300th episode be any different from any other episode? The grapes are new. The grapes are in case we didn't get wine.
+
+[20:35] Yeah, nice. All right. So Dave, just interrupt me if there's a uh there is a caller. Do you want to do an email question first? Or I think caller always gets pro uh.
+
+[20:46] Yeah. I'm another question. Peter, what the hell did you do? You froze the wine? I knew it.
+
+[20:52] Peter, what the hell? What the hell is that? I have no idea. Peter's trying to kill it. By the way, caller, I'm I know you're there.
+
+[20:59] Listen, so Dax did this thing that was really freaking me out the other day. He's doing been doing the vinegar and uh vinegar and baking soda stuff. And he was like, I'm gonna seal this in this little Poland Spring bottle. And I was like, Oh, there's uh there's no way it's gonna build up a lot of pressure, right? So I wasn't worried about it.
+
+[21:16] And then he showed me a video. This is just somehow the surface area that he did able to do it, because he put the baking soda into crumpled up uh you know uh plastic wrap, shoved that in, put the vinegar and sealed it, and something about all the extra surface area from the plastic wrap didn't let the baking soda clump, and that thing built up so much pressure that when he uncorked it outside, it sounded like a gun going off. And then when I felt him do it again, the bottle felt like it was like at full like inflation rupture strength. And I was like, Dax, that's awesome. You should do a how-to.
+
+[21:45] And my my wife, Dan was like, Are you fucking a nuts? Are you crazy? I was like, She was like, that's dangerous. I'm like, well, you know, it's mesodangerous. Don't point it towards it.
+
+[21:55] Kind of reminds me of when a certain somebody put LN inside a plastic bottle and sealed it. I did that for you, Peter. All right, caller, you're on the air. Or to you. Well, yes.
+
+[22:04] Caller, what's up? Uh, is this me? Mm-hmm. Yes. You're the caller.
+
+[22:09] All right. This is uh Marcel from the Hudson Valley. Hey, how you doing? Uh I'm doing great. How are you guys doing?
+
+[22:16] Alrighty. Hold on, we're just gonna cheer. Uh Dave's Dave's in the house for a week, uh, thanks. Uh podcast, but I'm finally listening live today. Oh, I like that.
+
+[22:23] Hold on a second, we're gonna just gonna cheers here. 300. Woo! All right, so I'm glad you're listening live. What's your question?
+
+[22:31] So my question is, I make a lot of uh bacon and panchetta at home. Um, and I've done two different methods before in terms of spicing it. Uh, one being actually adding all my spices to the cure mix, like so to the sugar and the salt, um, and curing it, and then at the end washing that off and having that be the finished uh panchetta. Or I've cured it with salt and sugar, and then once it's done curing, wash that off, then covered in spices and hung it to dry. Right.
+
+[23:03] And uh I heard on a past show sort of talking about whether spices are actually being absorbed into the fat or the meat or not. Um so basically based on that I'm wondering which method probably makes more sense in terms of having spice the spice flavor actually come through in the finished product. All right, so since I have not actually by the way, like if you are doing um I don't know, are you just doing a like a like old school? Or are you are you I forget, are you vacuuming it when you have the mixture on it to get better penetration or no? No, I actually haven't done that.
+
+[23:37] Uh I I don't have a food or any kind of vacuum sealer right now. Right. So most people, and you probably heard it from someone else on the show because I tend not to make pronouncements about this kind of stuff unless I've actually run the tests. Uh most people's opinion is that these sorts of things are relatively surface-based treatments. That said, uh, you know, it's like it's hard to deny when you eat speck, for instance, that you can taste the juniper, right?
+
+[24:07] So even if it is like uh, you know, fairly surface related uh uh thing, it makes it makes uh a difference. So as to whether you should do it before or after, I mean, if you've done it both ways, which one did you like more? Well, it's it's kinda hard to the funny thing is I find it hard to tell because bacon is so strongly flavored that sometimes when I'm you trying out these different spices, uh, it's almost hard to tell which one comes through more. Uh and I feel like I haven't done enough trials yet. Right.
+
+[24:38] So I was sort of hoping to not have to do too many more trials, but I mean the panchetta's gonna be yeah, the panchetta is gonna be the easier test. You know what I'm saying? Panchetta's gonna be an easier test because it's not well, presumably not smoked. You know what I mean? So you're not gonna have as much overriding kind of flavors.
+
+[24:56] Um but if you have a specific question like this, what I always do, because this is all about your taste, right? Is uh look, it's gonna be also like I do this. This is so this is something that I say to myself all the time, I worry a lot about uh, you know, every step of something, but the truth is is it's probably gonna be good either way. And so what you would do is is unless you're doing this commercially, like I would just break every batch into two. You know that they're gonna be pretty good, you know what I mean?
+
+[25:28] And so if you break every batch into two and just change one variable only, then you know exactly what that variable did. And it's easy enough on this one, cure like take half of your you know, batch this time and do it in uh in cure with spice, and the other half where where you add the the spice after the cure, and then and by the way, this is this goes for everything you uh you ever do, and the the you know that the best way to lock something down is to just do that, change one variable and then put the put them through the rest of the procedures together so that it's all same same and then you know what you might end up saying, you know what? I really can't tell the difference between these two. And if you really can't tell the difference between these two, and you should have someone else taste it by the way, and in reality, if you really, really care, you should do a triangle test. But the fact of the matter is is that what you're probably looking for is relatively large differences.
+
+[26:20] And so if at the end you can't you can't really tell the difference and other people can't tell the difference, or if you can tell the difference, but you can't decide which one you like better because they both have different things that you like about them, then choose whichever one's easiest for your workflow, your work process, right? But here's another thing about doing recipe testing that a lot of people uh miss. Um a lot of people, famous people make this mistake on a constant basis. And it's this that because you did a test and you altered one variable, you think that that variable is a hundred percent independent of every other variable, and that is not the case. So, for instance, if you're doing spices on something with it with a cure, right?
+
+[27:05] And then you you do a you do a test on uh which cut of meat you're using, to think that your tests on the spice a hundred percent correlate regardless of what kind of uh product you're making is an incorrect assumption, right? It's a good first approximation because you've built up your intuition to know that I like the spice at this point or at this point, but it's not a hundred percent. So this is why I say, like every once in a while, especially as your recipes change or you you know deviate a lot from your starting point, you should go back and retest earlier uh theories. And this is what does not happen very often when people are doing things like writing books, because it's very hard, it takes a lot of time and energy to go back and revisit things that you think you've already mentally litigated. Uh and so, you know, like the test that you run is valid for the test that you've run, and you can assume or try to assume that the results you get are independent of other variables that you're gonna manipulate in your process, but they're not necessarily, and so you have to be open to being wrong all the time.
+
+[28:14] And that's kind of how you grow is opening to say, okay, this is the way I think I'm going to do it now. This is what I think is going on. But be open to being wrong. Okay. Good advice.
+
+[28:27] Yeah, I think I think I'm definitely want to try and get some way to vacuum seal it because essentially what I want to end up with is something that tastes like the spices, but where when the person cooks it, they don't have spices around the outside. Sort of like when you get that that pepper covered bacon. Right. And then it has all the pepper around the outside. I don't want that.
+
+[28:47] So maybe you can also rinse some of that stuff off. I don't like overly pe I love pepper, like lots of pepper on something like a steak, but like that overly peppered where all you taste is pepper and you can't taste anything else. I don't understand why people like that. I don't understand it. Yeah.
+
+[29:04] But um a word of caution on in by the way, Greg Blonder from The Genuine Ideas, uh, he's done a lot of work on on penetration and stuff like that. And I don't always agree with his results, but his methods are very interesting, and you should always read his blog. He has some stuff on this. And I think when um uh when we're doing the uh the uh, you know, uh episode where he was on, I think we talked about it a little bit. But he um you go read what he has to say about it.
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+[29:34] Um vacuum vacuuming something increases the penetration of rate, penetration rate of small things like salt, like nitrites. Uh but I don't know how it I mean, I don't think it's really going to I know for it for a fact it doesn't increase very much the penetration of FNDC blue number one. Uh and so like I don't think it's gonna necessarily increase uh the penetration of let's say fennel or caraway you know what I mean um but you know test you know test it for yourself and find out and then and you know read read other people's kind of opinions but take everything with a grain of salt because they all have their own um you know methodological problems as well all right great well thank you very much sure let us know uh tweet on on tweet on back let us know how it works out all right I will have a good day now you too uh speaking of uh curing we had a question in from Scott regarding smoke uh while ago we're actually getting to some of the older questions Nastasia not that she cares I care she cares only because she likes to you actually don't want me to get to the questions because you'd rather just torture me on a on a daily basis you always want to start with the newest questions right I think you should go back to all the people who have been waiting a long time well why don't you put their questions back on the thing then you always only give me the new ones uh I have an idea instead of answering questions why don't we talk about which kinds of questions we should answer and then never answer any questions. No Peter's so meta. Oh yeah you told the story I have how you didn't laugh at the comedian.
+
+[31:05] Oh yeah yeah Stoneface Peter King look I I feel like like I said I feel like you have negative obligations when you're going to see stand-up what do you mean negative obligations meaning that you're you should refrain from doing certain things the burden is on them. But yeah but I don't I don't have to smile I won't be I won't be a jerk right I'm not sure well you in fact were a jerk I was not a jerk. You were in fact a jerk. Look, if Nastasia says you are a jerk, then that's hardcore. Peter's front and center, not smiling, staring down the comedian.
+
+[31:40] Not smiling would be one thing. Just blank would be one thing. No, he he was giving the stink eye. But doesn't the comedian have to earn it? No stink eye.
+
+[31:46] No. It's hard enough to be up there, I think. Yeah, I mean, look it like looking at the street. So everybody gets a prize just for participating. You guys are both like, oh, you know, it's like it's you're not, you didn't pay 30 or 150 dollars to go see Dave Chappelle.
+
+[32:06] You know what I mean? I am gonna do that though. I also didn't force him to go up there. You're at a free comedy, experimental comedy. There's not even a two drink meant nothing.
+
+[32:15] Nothing, nothing. Experimental. Yeah. Yes. And there's you don't need to, you're you you have paid nothing.
+
+[32:22] You're paid not one thing. And someone's getting up there, and so I'm not like I'm just saying, okay. I listen. I don't, I'm not like, I'm not gonna heckle. You were on the phone.
+
+[32:32] You were not talking to other people. You were aggressively not smiling. Wow. You were like being aggressively stone faced. And you should go in the back of the room if that's your take.
+
+[32:45] You know, like that, you know, like don't you think? Because, like I said, it makes it worse for everyone. If you do something Peter, if you do something to cause the comedian to be less funny because you're throwing them off their game, you're actually reducing the utility of everyone else in the room just so that you have the pleasure of being stone faced. Oh, it's a pleasure for me to be stone faced. Oh, yes.
+
+[33:06] Oh, yes, it is. Yeah, but he got called out, so that's I think it's he didn't mind being called out. You didn't mind. Of course not. Because he's like he's like, he's like, all you're doing is pointing out how unfunny you are.
+
+[33:16] I mean, that's what Peter's thinking is. I'm gonna go more stone faced just so everyone sees how not funny you are. When really we just want to hear some funny crap. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yeah, but the guy was just not funny.
+
+[33:27] That's the thing. I mean, like, that's that's an important fact. Look, look, look, he was funny at the way or disagree. By the way, chat room is agreeing with Peter right now. No, no, no, no, no, no.
+
+[33:36] Guys, guys, in the folks in the chat room, listen. This is a management style issue. Peter does not believe in playing to people's strengths. Just help the person be better. No, don't fake laugh, don't do any of that, but can't you at least, for the sake of everyone else in the room who doesn't want to deal with Peter enjoying making this guy's life a living hell by being as stone faced as possible, because it's not amusing for all the other spectators.
+
+[34:02] I wasn't trying to be as stone faced as possible. I was giving an honest reaction and it wasn't laughter. It wasn't funny. You don't have to laugh. Nastasia, just give the blank smile.
+
+[34:13] There you go. Blank smile. It's weird. It's weird. No, just go.
+
+[34:18] I don't like the idea of going up as a comedian. I wouldn't want to go up there again behind the mic and see everybody suddenly tilt their head and smile like some kind of dystopia. Peter, Peter, it's all about just being blank. Like if you just have like a random look on your face, even if it's this, or this one even. This is great for radio, by the way.
+
+[34:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I'm doing is I'm doing the third vo face. Like if you just have that face, right? Then as opposed to this, as opposed to uh as opposed to like this one. Uh Dave, let's.
+
+[34:52] Okay, here's the bad face. Alright, give me the give me the blank face that you think is okay. Because it's like Chat Room is making the analogy. If you went to a friend's house and they cooked you dinner and the food sucked, you should tell them. No.
+
+[35:07] No, no, no, no. They're doing you a lot of people. That is a lot different. That is a lot different. First of all.
+
+[35:14] You didn't know the comedian. First of all, people, there are different levels of telling your friend, right? So don't go effusive on how much you like their cooking if it blew. But you could do there's like, how'd you like the dinner? And you're like, ah, he's a kid, he's good.
+
+[35:26] Good. Right? That's all you need. Because they're like, oh, that says to them, this person didn't like what I did, but they're a human, and so they're being polite to me. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[35:39] Classic Peter Kim. We're out at a restaurant, they're like, this is our favorite restaurant in the entire freaking city. Town. Town. What town?
+
+[35:47] Small town. We're not gonna get into it. Not gonna get into it. And then they go, Peter, what do you what do you think? He goes, he goes, Overcooked and under seasoned.
+
+[35:59] And then literally, the guy, the guy next to him after that was like, I really college student, by the way, people. Was like, college student, young, impressionable. I I really want to get into kind of the you know, what you do in the food, but what do I do? He's like, give it up, kid. He was like, he said, listen, I just want to do I I just want to, you know, like what like what do you want to do before a career?
+
+[36:24] Uh I just like to be like Dave, you know, like do like food tech stuff, and bet things. Uh come on. Like, listen, I mean, the point is. You probably should discourage that. But you want to give people but you want to give people a reasonable advice.
+
+[36:38] And I told him, look, try to differentiate yourself and go like do something, learn skills that would be useful in the culinary industry if you want to work in the culinary industry. But like, if you're a good business person or if you understand like a certain product really well, if you specialize, so you can come back in. But like just trying to go in and be Dave. I mean, if Peter was a smoker, he would have flicked a butt in this guy's face. He would have been like, kid, get away from me.
+
+[37:00] Boom, you can't get away. I wasn't mean, but I gave him honest advice. Oh, come on, Peter. That was okay. I was okay with the advice.
+
+[37:10] Overcooked and underseasoned. That was a moment of candor, okay? And I think that was also 40 minutes after he walked in on you in the bathroom. So he was a little jump sold. We're not getting into that.
+
+[37:22] That is a very dark memory. Family show. Alright, so I'm tweeting out this right now. The stand-up comedy face. Okay.
+
+[37:30] So that's that apparently is what you view as being the okay face to give. Because it's just like the comedian's gonna look at your face and be like, there's something wrong with that dude. I'm gonna leave him alone. You know what I mean? Not like he's trying to mess with me.
+
+[37:45] Anyway. Scott writes. Alright, take a break, we'll be right back with 300th episode of Cooking Issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products.
+
+[38:18] So, you know, before Bob's red mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. And we're back. I hear we have another caller, Dan.
+
+[38:52] That's a that's the best one yet. Am I right, Peter? Family show can't talk about it. Caller, you're on the air. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[39:01] Hey, caller. Hello. Hey, how are you doing? Hey, Dave. Hello, the hammer.
+
+[39:07] This is Tom. This is Tom from Nashville. You don't get a hello, Peter. Cold dose. All right, go ahead.
+
+[39:16] What's going on in Nashville? Um not much. I'm on my lunch break. I'll under show. I figured I'd try and get you guys a call.
+
+[39:22] Oh, nice. Um I am an engineer for a plastics company. Ooh. And we have all kinds of neat equipment. Like I work in a lab environment, we have all this stuff, and I just look at it.
+
+[39:33] I think, man, I could cook something in that. And they won't let me, of course, I'd probably get in trouble. Weasels. Weasels. Yeah.
+
+[39:42] Um, but anyway, one of the pieces uh that I was interested in is an it's an ultrasonic bath. Right? So basically, you know, it it holds a constant temperature and also like vibrates the crap out of whatever you put in there. And I was wondering if that would like speed up like a low temperature cooking application or something. Okay.
+
+[40:01] There have been tests on um application of ultrasound during cook steps in the bath, and I think most of them were relatively inconclusive. Um the only ultrasonic bath technique that I saw getting kind of wide press was uh Modernist Cuisine, uh when they first, you know, when the first set of books came out, uh recommended they did their French fries in an ultrasonic bath. So uh yeah, one of their steps in the all was uh ultrasonic basically to uh the the theory being to disrupt the um the surface the of the uh french fry to get kind of a better crust formation. I have one. I gotta be honest, I never tested it because it never seemed feasible for uh for chefs because no one has a bath that large to do a reasonable number of French fries, and at the time that that book came out, I was really only dealing with things that I thought might be kind of useful for chefs.
+
+[41:03] I think they might have even looked into getting a patent on that for like a larger uh ultrasonic uh baths. Um but that's the only I mean other than obviously I used to use it for cleaning all the time, and it's kind of fun to put your hand into. Uh you know, I uh but you know, a quick search, so if you you know, steal access to any like, you know, of the like Web of Science or Elsevier or any of those, yeah, uh it's been a long time since I've read them, but I think in general uh rather inconclusive. Now, a lot of people have done work with the high temperature, I mean sorry, the uh high power ultrasounds, right? The homogenizers, but uh and most of that, like I don't know that it's worth the effort, to be honest.
+
+[41:48] Uh especially because really irritating. Like, you know, they the new the new ones with the enclosures are not as irritating. But uh what you should steal is one of the pilot extruders. If you work in a yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:06] We've we've got two of those, and they're uh twin screwed up. Tw twin screw extruders. 30 millimeter diameter, and I definitely couldn't put any fruit in that. Yeah, so someone, I'm pretty sure one of these days, someone's gonna break in and steal one, and maybe one ends up in your house. Like, especially if you're not doing it.
+
+[42:27] Or at the museum of food and drink. Yeah, you're familiar, obviously, with the you know that that the cereal industry actually took the twins uh the twins uh screw extruder from the plastics industry. So the entire modern cereal industry is based on uh the technology from the plastics industry. And also snacks, too. I I was just looking at a piece of Captain Crunch and it it looks just like a big size pellet of what we produce.
+
+[42:52] That is right. You need to steal that stuff. Listen, like what are you putting through it? Nothing that a good burnout won't take care of, right? I mean, come on.
+
+[43:00] Yeah. Yeah, I mean what we use is all pretty much inert, you know. So I mean, we'd have to clean the crap out of it, but on the Cap and Crunch point, uh we so we used to have a serial advisor, a technologist guy who used to work in the serial industry for decades. We don't have him anymore? Yeah, yeah, we still work with him.
+
+[43:16] All right, guys. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. Um anyway, um and so he talked a lot about the Cap and Crunch machine, which apparently is uh highly proprietary. Um and if you actually if you look at the cap and crunch shape, it's one that has is, I guess, considered to be one of the more special shapes.
+
+[43:36] It's sort of like two pillows that come together with this sort of gently crenulated uh texture. We've had Captain Crunchyroll. Okay, fine, fine, fine. All right. Anyway, but he's at at the at the factory where they're making it, they have a strobe light where they can stop the cap and crunch as it extrudes out from the machine at any moment, and they can dial it forward or dial it back just to see how the production's going, see if there's anything that needs to be fixed.
+
+[43:59] And he described it as we asked them what it what it's like to be able to do that and control the cereal coming in and out of the machine. It's like it's like looking in the face of God. Well, so like uh the way that the way that these things work, like for not they're not that expensive. So we when the museum gets an extruder, right? They these uh stroboscopes are set up so that you fire it from a certain point on uh like the axle every time.
+
+[44:26] So you're it's based on a on on a rotation rate of the thing coming out. But then you have all you have is a phase angle setting, so it can choose like when in that point it it fires, and so you can be really sickly accurate with uh getting stuff to go on lines because this is actually like the way to inspect things like high-speed bottling lines, or even you know, any piece of equipment that runs rapidly and you you don't you want to actually look at it in the real life, strobes with a phase adjuster. So we can buy one of those. We're totally gonna have that in the museum. Uh oh hell yes.
+
+[45:03] Yeah. Oh hell yes. But it really only works once you get up to um a fast enough uh rate such that like persistence of vision works. I mean, uh like if it's a slow thing and it's like poof, poof, poof, it doesn't have a good effect. It needs to be like you know what I mean?
+
+[45:22] Uh but it's amazing, amazing. I totally want one, and I want an extruder, so like if you need two people named Beater Bim and Mavid Marnold and maybe someone else named like Mastacia Bopez to come down with a truck and maybe one of your extruders disappears. Like, like you know, we can make that happen. You know what I mean? Uh just hypothetically.
+
+[45:44] If we ever de decommission one, I'll uh I'll give you guys a call that you know. Nice. Nice. Uh I had I had one other real quick thing um that I think is very interesting. Um plastic, if you want to paint something, you have to do some sort of pre-treatment or paint won't stick to it.
+
+[46:02] Sure. So we do uh a lot of people do flame treat, and they'll just take a blowtorch or some sort of machine basically and just run run the flame over the plastic real quick. One of the other options you can do is plasma treatment. And it it produces the same sort of um functionalization of the surface, but it does it at a lower temperature. And I was wondering if if you tried to search steak or something with plasma, if it would give you sort of the same results as flame, or if it would, you know, maybe change that uh the browning reaction a little bit.
+
+[46:37] Uh-huh. Well, I've never seen I mean, like when I think of pl plasma, is it look like the like the tip of like uh of a Tig welder? Like what does it look like? What does it look like here? Is it like uh what are you looking at?
+
+[46:48] It's basically it's not real big. It's probably the head is probably crap, maybe uh six centimeters uh in diameter, and it's round and it just produces like uh like a forced air plasma, uh kind of a bluish purple color. And does it does it have that ozone smell? Uh not really. Um I don't think this one, the one I have at least doesn't really produce ozone.
+
+[47:15] It doesn't say anything about loose using it in an enclosed area or anything. Well, I'll I'll look into it. Like uh, you know, if you at cook you go to at cooking issues and sh uh shoot me a uh a link to one so I can kind of see what it is. There is a uh maximum speed, there is a maximum searing speed above which things don't uh taste good anymore. And so I think that's one of the that's one of the things with like a a naked torch, for instance, on a piece of meat is that it's just too damn too damn much, too damn fast, and you get off you get off uh flavors.
+
+[47:49] And that's you know, that's kind of what the the Sears all is doing, aside from just spreading it out. But you know, famously um, you know, Homaro Kantu used to use lasers to burn things and by all accounts made some terrible tasting things with the laser because it just doesn't taste good to sear things with the laser. What I really wanted to do, like in a major way, was uh to uh get like two beam spreaders so that you could take a CO2 laser with a known output, do a beam spread, right, and then you could do two things. One by by uh positioning a piece of meat at a particular place away from the spread, you know what the drop off of uh uh intense energy intensity per square uh centimeter is, and you could basically figure out what the what the optimum is on a continuous basis, but even more so then if you could like Q switch that son of a gun, you could sit there and flash it like and see whether or not a very high intensity, short duration uh like and you could really then just dial in all the parameters of what is going on and test it, but you'd need someone who had the lasers and had the optics and kind of was interested. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:05] But I think it'll be a really fun experiment to run. I've I've been wanting to run it for years and years, but just don't have access to it. You know, this is why what I should have done is become some sort of like professor of some bull crap at some large state school like Michigan where somebody has everything. You know what I mean? And but you know, that's not the way my life ended up.
+
+[49:26] Regrets. All right, well, I've had a few. All right, well, thanks for calling in. Thank you. Bye.
+
+[49:34] Too many to mention. Uh the uh we got one more caller. All right, caller. Caller, you're on the air. My on the air.
+
+[49:43] Oh, hey, hey, everybody. Uh I got a little bit of a cooking issue. I used to uh, you know, I used to cook with a lot of molecules, and now I can't find my molecules anymore. And uh I used to get my molecules from the show, you know, but uh you haven't had any molecules around lately. Is this Jackie Molecules?
+
+[50:01] Oh how's it going down in DC? Hey, things are good, man. I miss you guys. Yeah, nice. We miss we miss look, Dave, no offense.
+
+[50:21] We miss we miss Jackie Molecules. Everybody, everybody like loves the Jackie Molecules. How's the uh hey, you're in DC? Can you get us any uh people for this new idea for a show? You know a lot of politicians.
+
+[50:34] No, no. So here we're Nastasia and I want to start this new show. Here's the concept. I'll give it to you real quick. The concept is that people come in and ostensibly it's about kind of you know, talking about food.
+
+[50:45] So it's kind of like being at dinner, but we bring up all the stuff you're not supposed to talk about and then just have like knockdown arguments about like politics, religion, things you shouldn't really talk about, things that would ruin Thanksgiving. Like I've ruined so many Thanksgivings. So it's imagine that every episode is you're ruining Thanksgiving. So you'd have people who kind of either disagree with us or disagree with each other. And then we talk about food, but also any s any other kind of issue, kind of no holds barred.
+
+[51:13] Like a politician. So do you know some? Come on, DC. Yeah. I can't speak to that.
+
+[51:20] Really? He is he is like Jack spends all of his time inside the West Wing with the people, so you can't talk about it because he'll get nuked. He'll get mooched. He'll get he'll get mooched. Yeah, but not appropriate for dinner parties.
+
+[51:37] Yeah, yeah. It'll still be a family show, Jack. It'll still be a family show. I mean, like, you know, in general, I try not to curse too much at the dinner table because often my kids are there. I don't mind ruining the dinner, but you don't want to get, you know, your family mad at you for cursing in front of the kids overly much.
+
+[51:55] Unlike that time unlike that time that I gave a speech at a heritage radio event and cursed in front of your kids. I remember. Well, they you know, look, honestly, like uh as this is as this is as non family as we go, but that's like pissing in the ocean to raise the tide in my house. When you think of the number of times I've slid, you know, made a mistake in front of the kids, it's like the thing is that I believe, and I said this on the air before, that to really be good in the English language, you need to be able to like lay a string of curses and invectives like a babbling brook. And so you need to kind of ha have that.
+
+[52:29] Uh, but apparently, you know, we need to wait until the kids are of a certain age in order in order to do that. But Peter, do you do you you don't you don't want to deal with someone that can't lay down some curses, do you? Of course. Right? Yeah.
+
+[52:42] Yeah. Right. Yeah that's a that's a prerequisite for any job actually ringing endorsement from Peterkin yeah stone face stone face Peterkin sir anyway all right so man I I really do miss you guys and uh I would love to I would love to bring some DC people on the show I'd love to come back and visit and uh you are all welcome in DC anytime I'm actually calling though um because I want to remind listeners that they should be donating to Heritage Radio Network and not the spinz all amazing drive had to dust off the old molecule coat to uh remind everybody that they should uh keep the show going because what would what would the world be without cooking issues you know it would be yeah and low quality individuals yeah well yes exactly all right and I would second that yeah it's a great organization doing good stuff yeah heritage food good people good people and then donate obviously yeah you're done with heritage and while you're well while you're getting out your checkbook you can still buy a spinz all right now up until August 2nd you go August 4th you can still buy one it'll ship direct from China as long as you got your checkbook out the same yeah and if you got any money left over you can donate to the Jackie Molecules for President Foundation 2020. Yo we just have an announcement over Kanye 100% you know what I mean what about the rock ooh ooh the rock's tough I like the rock I like Jackie Molecules though maybe you guys could run on one ticket. Yeah I think everyone likes to rock rock molecules.
+
+[54:15] Oh, yeah, yeah. All right, we gotta Alright, brother. Oh, Nastasia's giving me one oh one-one. I didn't answer even one freaking question. Well, to next week's.
+
+[54:25] Alright, no, hold a second. Bye. Bye, Jack. Wait, can I get can I get one question here? Like, literally, are we gonna have to do a whole nother show?
+
+[54:33] You can do one question. Ooh, now which one? What uh what should I do? One of the ones from last week. Well okay.
+
+[54:40] Let's talk about uh the person who is Stan. Okay. Uh so Stan's got a competition coming up in September. Okay? He says, uh, thanks for the show.
+
+[54:51] Uh a question that might be a bit outside of your area of expertise. Uh I did register to compete in a baking contest in the fall. We have three hours, three hours now, all right, to produce an opera cake, right? You know what an opera cake is? No.
+
+[55:04] It's uh, well, here it says right here thin layers of sponge cake, coffee, buttercream, and chocolate ganache. And they're not allowed to use a freezer. Apart from practicing at home, including uh under time pressure, what advice could you give me? I'll obviously weigh and pack all the ingredients separately for the Mies before the clock starts. So for what this is telling me is that you get to bring your own Mies, which is interesting.
+
+[55:24] Um in general, what are some good practices for cooks participating in competitions or culinary school students preparing for exams? Many thanks, Stan. So uh if you look into an opera cake recipe, it's like it's thin layers baked in sheets. But they look here's the thing. It's not just about everything with a cake like this.
+
+[55:42] There are so many steps that involve like cooking, chilling, frosting, chilling, setting. The opera cake takes a lot of chill time, right? So if you don't have access to a freezer, my question is gonna be well, do you have access to a fridge? If you do have access to a fridge, are you the only person that has access to a fridge? Or do multiple people have access to the fridge?
+
+[56:04] And when I and I literally was just uh uh a guest judge in a baking competition show uh that hasn't aired yet uh a couple of weeks ago, and I observed uh a lot of mistakes so what what you have to do is completely analyze the recipe and figure out what the time bottlenecks are gonna be right that's first and then accomplish them and multitask in the correct order such that they're gonna get done this is the classic thing you see people do they'll forget something until the end and then and if they've done this recipe at home a bunch of times but they never actually sat down and figured out this needs to happen at exactly this time or it won't be ready in the future like that is especially if you know in advance what the recipe is going to be this is what you need to focus on. The other thing is is that if you're not if you're gonna bring your own ingredients that's one thing you don't have to worry about but I had a discussion with Bobby Flay once about being an iron chef and he said that the iron chef has a tremendous advantage in uh what's it called chef stadium? Chef stadium whatever it's called kitchen stadium whatever they call it has a tremendous advantage just because they know the kitchen. What I would do is I would do what I said I would plan out exactly what needs to happen when what the time bottlenecks are figure out where your pinch points are going to be right and I guarantee you it's gonna be like you got to figure out a way to cool that cake down fast. So like whether it's you're gonna use parchment paper instead of silpats because it's gonna cool faster the closer it is to the aluminum tray you know whether it's any one of these things, you know making sure that uh if you are going to stick it in the fridge that it can vent off a lot because it's gonna be evaporative cooling that really gets the cake cool as fast as so you want maximum surface area in contact, flashing off.
+
+[57:50] So it's like whether it's uh you know steps like that figuring out uh or not, practice in somebody else's kitchen. Just so like take whatever you know you're gonna have, make sure that they get whatever it is that you're gonna have uh uh available to you, go to their kitchen and make it because there is so much time saving. This is good something like if if I ever write a book about this subject, which I never will, but I should probably is um one of the reasons I think that people in general don't cook, right? Or can't cook, is because it takes a long time for them to cook. And the reason it takes a long time for them to cook is a recipe will say something simple like, get a bowl, right?
+
+[58:32] And so for me, even though my kitchen's a nightmare mess all the time, I know exactly where all the bowls of every size are, and within half a second, I can have that bowl in my hand, right? And if you need another one, I I know exactly where that same size bowl is because they're all stacked, I go for it, I get it in my hand. Someone, and if you've ever had this experience cooking in someone else's kitchen, they're like, you walk up to them, and what do you say? You say, Can I help you cook? I never do this.
+
+[58:58] This is why I never do this. Can I help you cook? And they're like, Um, yeah, okay, uh, dice up uh, you know, dice up the this carrot. Where are your knives? Where's your cutting board?
+
+[59:13] I don't have anything to put it into. Can you put it by this time I could have cut the freaking carrot myself? This is why I don't have anyone help me do it. Because it's like, is it the irritation of like having to ask and explain where every freaking implement in the kitchen is. So you're saying that stand-up comedian deserves a smile.
+
+[59:34] No. Yeah. Bring it all up. Somebody who's helping you in the kitchen. I'm giving you my internal dialogue.
+
+[59:42] This is my internal dialogue. I don't push my internal dial. I'm letting you I'm letting the listener know what's going on in my head. What comes out of my mouth is the knives are in that drawer over there. You know what I mean?
+
+[59:58] But then the other thing that's horrifying, this is another problem too. Is like this is why it's fun. It's fun having people over to your house that you cook with a lot because they know A, your house, and they know B, like kind of what you're like and you know what they're like. But it's like when people come there new, and then like if a chef comes, right, they try you know, they're all like, just show me one and I'll make the rest, which is kind of good, right? There's show me one, make the rest.
+
+[1:00:21] So you get the carrot out, you get the knife, you get the board, you put it down, you do one thing, and then they bust out the rest. The problem with a chef is is that they'll dice every carrot in your fridge. You're like, I needed one carrot. I needed one carrot, and the chef will just go through every carrot you have because they're pretending that it's me's for a restaurant. You've had this happen, right, Stas?
+
+[1:00:38] Anywho. My point is is that uh go to someone else's uh kitchen because you are vastly less efficient in a kitchen you don't know the layout of than you are at home. So I've seen this a million times. Well, or more like ten. But like don't like don't practice practice in your own kitchen, figure the stuff out, but then please go practice in somebody else's kitchen.
+
+[1:00:58] And that is a basically kind of a uh a tip from me or from Bobby Flay through me. Right? Uh and we have a whole bunch of stuff. I was gonna talk to about Stan and his safety with his smoking. I was gonna talk about uh D and uh, you know, the outdoor cooking that they're gonna do when they move to New Jersey, which I guess we'll have to get into next time.
+
+[1:01:19] And then we just had we had so many good questions. We never got to. Uh, but I guess we're gonna have to get to them next time. Do you think we should. We had someone actually from Toronto, Michael, write in about searing and sealing in the juices.
+
+[1:01:29] So we maybe maybe we'll get Harold McGee to come on and talk about that. You want to do that, guys? You want to get Harold McGee to come on and talk about that? Oh yeah. Or maybe we'll do that too.
+
+[1:01:38] Maybe we'll do that next week. We had some questions about uh room temperature ice cream. I can definitely do with that. So we'll get it back next time on the 301st episode. Oh, by the way, next week, I might not be here.
+
+[1:01:51] I might not be here for the next two weeks. I'm not sure. I might not be here. I might be away for two weeks. I'm not sure.
+
+[1:01:56] Low quality individual. In which case. I'll let everyone know on the on the Twitter storm what's going on. Peter Kim guest host. Ooh.
+
+[1:02:05] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Peter Kim coming to you live from Roberta Speech 3 in Brooklyn. Brooklyn! Too loud, Peter. Too loud.
+
+[1:02:13] Too loud. Yeah, you gotta work on that. Too loud. Too loud. Do you know that when I'm in the car, Dax will sometimes say, do the cooking issues intro.
+
+[1:02:21] I'm like, why? Why I can't. Just turn it on the turn on Heritage Radio. Like, why would I, you know? He also like, last time he was on the show a while ago, and he like, he's like, do the vo do the voice of like, you know, what like uh whichever moron I'm doing, Harvey is one of them, you know what I mean?
+
+[1:02:38] I'm like, you know, I gotta feel it, man. I gotta feel it. You know what I mean? Oh, also, if you have any recommendations, I'm building a meme cabinet with Dax next week. Uh so if you have any uh if you folks have any suggestions on specific games or whatnot in the MAME cabinet, tweet them on to me.
+
+[1:02:55] I'd appreciate your advice. And we'll see you next time on the 301st episode of Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[1:03:27] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[1:03:54] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollux, maker of America's number one organic pet food organics. Look for their newest line, Pristine. The only complete line of pet food made with responsibly sourced ingredients. Learn more at heritageradionetwork.org/slash pets. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:21] We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Shoes coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1 o'clock from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:02] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah. And uh got Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:08] Dave, how you doing? Doing good. That's good. And uh we supposed to have He just said O F word. Uh, so it looks like we will uh looks like we will um not have our guest so I won't even announce who it is so that no one can have him on Blast.
+
+[1:29] Who, me? No. No, you're not on Blast. Um So, also in the ongoing saga of Take Your Child to Work Life, we have uh Booker Arnold. How are you doing, Booker?
+
+[1:41] I'm doing well. Yeah? What are you up to? Uh just playing on my phone. I don't mean right now, I mean in general.
+
+[1:48] Uh just enjoying life in New York. Yeah, how's uh how's your vegetarianism going? I I missed chicken, so I went back to it. I now don't eat red meat anymore. Uh you don't eat red meat, but you eat chicken meat.
+
+[2:05] You eat bacon? No, bacon is utterly disgusting. See, I'm Nastasi somehow he's convinced himself now the stuff that formerly he loved is not just if he doesn't eat it anymore. Disgusting. It's disgusting, which is just wrong.
+
+[2:17] Yeah. So you cook anything interesting in the last couple of weeks, Nastasia? No. Eat anything interesting the last couple of weeks? No.
+
+[2:23] So you just insulted every restaurant you've been to in the past couple of weeks. I haven't really been insulted? Yeah, insulted. What about you, Dave? Anything?
+
+[2:28] Uh yeah, I was in the Outer Banks last week and made my annual pilgrimage to Dirty Dick's Crab Shack for all you can eat crab legs. Yeah? How was it? Fantastic. I think I had seven plates.
+
+[2:38] Okay. And uh and let me ask you this. Uh the the green flies, uh, were they as big as the crabs you were eating? No, they're they're not as much of a problem down in North Carolina. Oh, they used to be.
+
+[2:49] Do they spray the hell out of them now? Is it just the entire earth is covered with poison? It used to be mosquitoes and green flies on a constant basis back in the 80s. They may have sprayed the area because uh one day the ocean was filled with dead jellyfish. That's my favorite kind of jellyfish, in fact.
+
+[3:04] Hey Nastasia, what uh what's your favorite saying about uh humidity in the outer banks? So hot that you once saw a uh bass chasing a squirrel. Up a tree. Yeah, exactly. Hey Booker, yeah.
+
+[3:17] No more sound effects into the microphone. And no noise on your foot. For those of you that know, like Booker's literally sitting there with his earphones on, going. Right? Anyway.
+
+[3:27] Uh hey I'll shut up. Uh Booker, you know, you you can you don't need to telegraph what you're gonna do. You can just do it. Um call in your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[3:39] I actually had uh an interesting culinary adventure. Have we talked about steamed cheeseburgers on this program before? No. So there is a weird um Connecticut only uh subculture of cheeseburgers called that are steamed cheeseburgers. And this arose during the Depression.
+
+[3:56] Someone in Middletown, Connecticut uh came up with um the idea that they were gonna build a steamer box. I don't really know why. I should go back and uh read the read the patents, but they came up with this steamer box. Uh and the steamer box, you put the meat into this little box and you steam the hell out of it, and then you put the cheese into this little box and then you steam the hell out of it. Which doesn't sound particularly good, right?
+
+[4:24] So there's only a couple places left that do it. There's this place called Tom's, and there's a place called Rourke's works is kind of a well-known diner. Uh Rourke's, I like going to Rourke's Booker actually has been to Works. He likes works okay. Uh their steamed cheeseburger is is uh god awful.
+
+[4:38] I don't like it. Um the Tom's actually does uh a decent job. Now I I actually don't really can you even picture this? It's a square burger that's steamed, and then square piece of cheese that's steamed. I can square a s I mean I can picture a square piece of cheese, but not a burger.
+
+[4:58] Well, some people make square burgers, but they're not steamed. Is that one in New England? Well, they're not steamed, that's the thing. Everyone's like, oh, it's Way Kiss steamed. I said I can square those are steamed griddle.
+
+[5:09] This is entirely different. No griddle, no high heat marks on it all. Is that one in New Haven's um Louis Lunch, well known. What they have is whatever restaurant that I recommend that's in New York. Oh, okay, what is it?
+
+[5:20] Cafe Zaya. Uh Cafe Zaya is a uh like uh Japanese uh takeout uh joint. Uh or a cafe. Yeah. Uh some good news, Nastasia.
+
+[5:32] None of my uh Dropbox stuff is working, so I can't get to today's uh questions. Amazing. That's okay, we got a caller. Um, let me finish the whole thing. So the steamed cheeseburgers, the ones at Louie's lunch are vertically grilled in their own special vertical griller.
+
+[5:44] They use cheese whiz, don't allow you to take ketchup, and they also have a vertical toaster that they grill, so everything is cheese whiz on white bread with their burger that's done in this special vertical grill with these little like crematorium doors that open and close to put the burgers into. The steam burger is like they take a hunk of uh a thing of raw beef, which is about I think a little over a quarter pound or thereabouts, smash it into a square container and throw it into a steamer and steam it. Tom's does it until it's just done, so it's still got some juice. The one I other one was like incredibly dry. But the works does a good job on other things.
+
+[6:16] They just have the steamed cheeseburgers to keep up with history. But the steam cheese, which they set as a revelation, and they take the long giant blocks, not of government cheese, but of the harder cheddar cheese, but in long blocks, cut it into giant strips, cut it into pieces and steam it. It inflates, and the cheese, which they also put on cheese fries, they also do a steamed cheese as a grilled cheese variant. The steamed cheese is delicious. So I'm gonna try to figure out their steamed their steamed cheese uh technology.
+
+[6:43] Steamed cheeseburgers. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hi hi guys, can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah, hey, so I uh finally got some MSG at the bad neighborhood grocery store.
+
+[6:57] And I'm wondering, as far as just cooking with regular MSG, what what are some good applications as opposed to you know, typical, more complicated umami flavors? I I tried it on popcorn and it was actually kind of disgusting. Um but I also try was trying to make New York Noodletown style green, which turned out pretty well. So I have no clue what to do with it, because the recipes seem to avoid it entirely. Right.
+
+[7:25] So let's just let's just I I'm trying to get like a uh uh what's it called here? I'm trying to get a level. What's your what did you find disgusting about the popcorn? It did it masked the typical popcorn flavor. And it added the savor in the savory part of it didn't taste good.
+
+[7:45] It just tasted like tasted like something else unidentifiable. Not necessarily bad. It just it was almost just like it destroyed the popcorn flavor, it didn't intensify it. Right. So I think what what happened there is you um it tasted probably like what I was looking for is it tasted like it tasted like dashi, right?
+
+[8:06] So it tasted everything tastes when you add MSG, everything tastes a little bit like dashi, right? So you don't notice that so much in something like beef jerky, which has that particular flavor, but popcorn, which isn't intended. So for instance, if you were gonna take the popcorn and make a dashi flavored popcorn, well then the MSG would be good. If you were gonna take the popcorn and make a beef jerky flavored popcorn, then the MSG would be good. When you're making like a Doritos flavored thing that has like a high load of things like cheese and tomato, MSG tastes good.
+
+[8:40] But that back flavor that you have from um that back flavor that you get from MSG doesn't taste good in things that aren't intended to be savory in that protein breakdown sense, right? So only things that are intended to have kind of protein breakdown flavors in them, like cheeses, which undergo um you know protein uh hydrolysis during uh aging, or um tomatoes have natural free fatty acids, or things like uh seaweed that has na not free fatty acids, sorry, free um uh free amino acids. Uh sushi, I mean, sushi's really light, people some people would say stuff like that, like like fish, in other words, like raw fish, or like but what about what about Chinese greens? Is it just because you expect that flavor to come with Chinese greens, or why is it? Are you putting bacon into your Chinese?
+
+[9:32] Are you putting bacon into your Chinese greens or no? What's that? Are you putting bacon into your Chinese greens or no? No, it was basically just you know uh the ideal dish here, and I don't know how it's made, is uh are you do you have the uh the garlic chives or the flowering chives that you're gonna do? I love those things.
+
+[9:49] Yeah. I don't put MSG into them though, but yeah. It seems to be, I mean, it's hard to tell what's there, but I'm assuming it was an MSG cornstarch thicken. Uh those things are straight up, those things are straight up delicious on their own. I don't know that they need MSG.
+
+[10:04] I mean, the great thing about MSG is you can treat MSG like you treat salt. So you could take uh you could take like a small amount of it, add a small amount of MSG to it, and and then see whether you like the effect. You know what I mean? Um stuff like cab stir-fried cabbage, just a little, it does actually it's really good, even without any of the you know, any any added meat in it. Right.
+
+[10:28] So but you're adding a bit of like a kind of a savory, savory as though there were meat or it's not just meat, it's as though there was meat, as though there was cheese, as though there were tomatoes. In other words, like things that are either high in uh free uh amino acids or are high in protein breakdown products, right? So anything that soy sauce would be good in, or you want soy sauce in, MSG can punch that, right? Anything that you um can like sense, oh, this would be good if we were gonna add parmesan, MSG would work in it. Anything where you think, oh, I'm gonna add a bunch of tomato, not so much tomatoes, but tomato paste.
+
+[11:07] Anything you would add tomato paste to, like, oh, a little MSG might might do well here. You see what I'm saying? Do you do you do so do you think that having you know cooking with all these things, whether in an Italian or a you know Chinese context with soy sauce with Parmesan, is there any if you have access to those, is there any point in in using the MSG at all? Or yeah, sure. I mean soy sauce has a lot of extra flavors to it.
+
+[11:30] As soon as you add, frankly, as soon as you add uh I mean I think I said on the air a million times I had someone make me a fettuccine alfredo analog with reduced sodium, and the way that they accomplished reducing the sodium was to add MSG to it. But they didn't add MSG because that would have been a bad label declaration. They added like you know, pros like soy protein isolates or something like that. And to me, it all of a sudden shifted from being an Italian dish into being something that tasted much more kind of recognizably uh like had an Asian slant to it. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:00] Um I think soy pushes it even farther in in in that direction. Hold on a second, Booker, you have a question? The mic was crowding my face, so I was trying to push it away. Guess what? No one can see that because no one sees what we're doing.
+
+[12:12] They can only hear it, so you don't need to mention that. Sorry. Yeah, okay. So the um do you still love me? Yes.
+
+[12:19] Um, I saw I saw well last last last last. All right, I'm gonna give it an adjustment. I saw um Andy Andy Ricker of Fox Pog on on some some video where he claimed to be eating I mean he was in Thailand and he claimed that the steak was eating had been marinated in MSG. I don't know if it was a dry brine or or you know if it was just salting salting it, quote unquote salting it, or or if it was actually in a brine. Did he like it?
+
+[12:46] Is that actually is that is that gonna penetrate the meat into anything different, or is it just gonna break down into the component? Well, um MSG is a good bit larger than salt, but it's still a relatively small molecule. So me, I I've honestly I don't know. I I don't know. I don't I've never done that that kind of a test.
+
+[13:06] Now it depends on what you mean by marinate. If someone like jacquards the hell out of something or beats it with a mallet, breaks it apart. Also, if they're marinating it also in acid or marinating it in a lot of salt, here's the thing, right? Like they typically test on something that has a fairly fine structure because those things are cheap. So they test things like chicken breast, right?
+
+[13:29] I mean, a lot of the things that you've seen on marination tests have been chicken breast or uh, you know, um like uh relatively like even grained muscle meat because they they feel that this is gonna be a more kind of relevant test because it takes away a lot of the variables. But as it turns out, when you salt the hell out of something that is uh has a lot of intramuscular collagen, like the collagen tends to separate. This is why when you pick up a piece of meat that's been salted heavily uh and you you pull on it, you can see it separate along its grain boundaries because the intramuscular, the intrafiber of collagen has kind of broken down a little bit or broken away, you've weakened the collagen. And so you actually will get penetration of liquids into those crevices. Now, those things will probably get boiled out almost immediately when you're gonna cook it, but solids, right?
+
+[14:15] Things that aren't liquids, things that don't boil, things like MSG, possibly do have a greater penetration into those areas in situations like that. I think you can think of if you've ever thought about like uh taking a piece of meat, like a London broil, let's say, out of a marinade and lifting it under its own weight, you can see the gaping and separation in your mind. I don't know if you can see it, I can see it in my mind. This the gaping and separation. And in those places, you will get liquids, those liquids contain solids, and even though those liquids boil right out again, so you think there's no effect, right?
+
+[14:44] The solids that were deposited at the same time are still there. Uh so MSG will probably get in there. Um I don't I don't know the effect. My feeling is that I don't like it when things go too like too umami, and I think that MSG, unlike salt, where I'm trained to like uh withstand a relatively wide range of salt concentrations and still be happy. I can't re I don't really like like a huge amount of MSG.
+
+[15:12] And once it's detectable to me as MSG, once it seems that there's more of that flavor in there than kind of God wants there to be in there based on the ingredients, I start seeing it as an off-flavor, which is I think what's was happening to you in the in the popcorn scenario. Yeah, I think that's what happened when it's background noise. It's good in an enhancer, but when it when the television tuned is that you don't enjoyable. Right. That's the same way, also, like I love salt.
+
+[15:39] I'm not, I mean, I love salt, as anyone who's had my cooking knows, but I uh I'm not a huge fan of desserts that are so salty that they taste like salt. I'm not. I I appreciate them, but I wouldn't I don't want to pound a bunch of them, even though I know they're extraordinarily popular and most people like it. Like what desserts have salt? A lot of chefs nowadays, Booker, and for the past, I would say eight years, including chefs that are like good friends of mine.
+
+[15:59] I've never heard of such a thing. Salty caramel? Saltwater taffy. Saltwater taffy is strangely not very salty. Then the name doesn't fit.
+
+[16:14] I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you guys with with Booker reminded me of another question. I'm not gonna ask the question, but I'll just pose it as that he's not eating red meat. But is there a good definition of red meat? So I don't think there is. Yes, there is not a good definition.
+
+[16:29] The color is a bad uh uh a bad way to kind of uh judge it. Like really you should just uh he should just say, look, I'm not eating like well, I'm not eating mammals. He's not eating mammals, basically. Chickens are mammals, aren't they? No, chicken's a bird.
+
+[16:44] Chickens like a chicken's a bird, it's like a dinosaur. Okay, okay. Yeah, what do you say, Mustace? Is it a reptile, a chicken? No.
+
+[16:52] No. Whoa! My God, I'm dealing with I'm dealing with some highly, highly uh hasn't anybody ever seen Jurassic Park? Come on. Well, the interesting thing about uh birds in general now is that birds nowadays are um birds nowadays are cat like are categorized basically as being the direct descendants of dinosaurs.
+
+[17:14] So somewhere in the past ten years, Natural History Museum has like redone all of their stuff to say that birds are dinosaurs. When I was a kid, this wasn't how you thought of it. You thought of birds had descended from like similar roots of dinosaurs, with like Archaeopteryx, was I believe the name of the bird, but nowadays they're like birds are living dinosaurs. That's the way they that's the way they put it. Are you uh do you believe that stuff, Nastasi?
+
+[17:36] Or no? I've only known that. I want to believe. You want to believe? I thought mammals meant warm blooded animals.
+
+[17:42] Birds are. No, mammals are a specific group of animals. Warm bloodedness developed prior to um prior to mammals. Do chickens have warm blood? Um well they're they have red blood, so well that that's not necessary.
+
+[17:58] What animal has blue blood? Octopi. And squid. Horseshoe crabs. Now uh now listen.
+
+[18:05] Alright, Dad, I'll try not to make uh um I'll try not to make excessive sounds with the mic. I'm I was just pushing it away from me not to crab my face. Yes. Uh so I'm trying to I'm just telling you I'm gonna push it away from my face, okay? Uh yes, okay.
+
+[18:20] Hey Anastasia, since I'm having trouble with my uh electronics here, can you locate the questions from yesterday so you can just read reading? I didn't have it in the email I see. You want to take another call in the meantime? Sure, call her you're on the air. Um hello Dave.
+
+[18:31] Is this Luis from Florida? How are you? All right, how you doing? How's Florida right now? Is it as nasty as it is here?
+
+[18:37] Oh my goodness, too humid, man. Too humid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate that. It'll probably stretch till September.
+
+[18:44] It was so humid the other day where I was in Connecticut. It was Friday, right? Yeah, that I I honestly I started yelling at my whole family. I was like, who dumped water all over the freaking floor? Because we had these tile floors?
+
+[18:55] They're like, no, that's just it's just it's that freaking humid. Like when you go to bed at night, the pillows are wet. It's like main humid. You ever been up to Maine in the summertime? It's a different kind of humid because I guess in Florida you're used to being humid, but like main humidity is like everything is like wet.
+
+[19:11] Because it's not hot enough to burn all the wet off of everything. So everything's just wet all the time. Anyway, go ahead. What's your question? My question is um I have a client that's interested in cooking a suckling pig.
+
+[19:24] Um she has a traeger grill, one of those electric grills. Mokers slash moker. Um my question is what would be the best way to prep cook the pig inside of it, the whole thing. I've never used one of those things. Most people who do the suckling pigs, how big is the pig?
+
+[19:44] Like what like is it like is it like uh tiny or like most most suckling pigs that are like on the large side compared to what you would get, let's say in Spain, right? So like most of the suckling pigs that I've bought in the US are in the like 20 to 24 pound range. Whereas yeah, okay. Something between 15 and 20 pounds. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:04] So um I mean the good news is that most people are used to having that stuff incredibly overcooked anyway, right? So uh I mean it depend it depends on what you're gonna it depends on what you're kinda gonna do. I would I would probably end up going um I would probably go low and slow with that guy. I mean that that's typically what you you would do. I would salt the the heck out of the uh interior of it, uh rub some on the outside, I would air dry the uh the skin out a little bit.
+
+[20:37] And then did does this does this thing have a rotisserie on it or no? No. Yeah. I have good results with rotisseries. Um but yeah, I would go low and I would go low and and slow up.
+
+[20:47] The problem is the problem with these with suckling pig is that the meat is just so thin in like a lot of places, it's hard to get the thing to come together all at the same time. That's why you know you just want to like end up not drying it out because everything, in order to get the inside of it cooked, unless you're gonna low temp it, right? Unless you're gonna do low temperature cooking on it, like parts of it are gonna be horribly overcooked. So everything is gonna basically be taken up to like a barbecue level. So you're gonna have to treat it like a piece of barbecued meat.
+
+[21:14] Otherwise, you it's not possible to do it any other way. So then what you do is you do it low and slow, and then you just gotta make sure that you crisp up the skin at at the outside. Like I actually like doing like um like almost like uh almost like steam it to cook it like low, low, right low, pull it out, air dry the skin like hell, and then just crisp the hell out of the skin. Uh but it's been how many years has it been since I've done one of these things? It's been like it's been a long time.
+
+[21:49] It's been probably 10 years since I've done a suckling pig or longer. But so uh yeah, so uh so I'm not so I'm trying to go back on what my best kind of results have been. I mean, my best results probably have been traditional spit roast, uh, but you don't have a spit in this case. Yeah. Um do you have to do it soon or no?
+
+[22:10] Sorry? Do you have to do it soon or no? Yeah. Uh and you don't want to low temp it, you want to cook it entirely in this thing, right? Does anyone is anyone in the chat room have any good uh suckling pig stuff, Dave?
+
+[22:23] Uh let me ask. Let me get the let me get the chat room on it. We'll get back to it the uh towards the end of the show. Of course. All right, thanks, ma'am.
+
+[22:30] Have it away. Okay. All right, Stas, give me some questions. I texted them to you. You can't just read?
+
+[22:36] Well, I know that you have uh you're much faster. Nothing's coming through. Text? No, I'm not getting any information on my phone. Uh-huh.
+
+[22:46] Like nothing, like my phone is no longer my phone. Well, how is that helpful for people right now? I need it right. I need it right now. Uh, okay.
+
+[22:55] Just read me some questions. I am. This guy says he's written in the manual that it'll be spinzel will be life altering for baby food. I have a baby that is about to start eating food. This may save myself, I mean my friend from getting into deep trouble.
+
+[23:09] Do you have any guidelines for the best pretreatment of ingredients and our methods to get ultra smooth purees? Can't wait to make baby food and genotonics. Thanks for the great show, devotion to food, blah blah blah. Okay, so yeah, I remember this person has not told their wife that they bought the spinzall is the is the dilly. And so they feel they need some sort of excuse to sell the spinz all.
+
+[23:26] This is our you know, when somebody asked me, I was like, this is our key audience. Uh the middle-aged man, you know how old the patients are. They just had a kid. How do you know how old they are? They could be 22.
+
+[23:36] How does that make a kid? They just had a kid. That's why they're asking about baby food. No, I know, but like they okay, well, I'm not sure. You have no idea what their age is.
+
+[23:44] You make a lot of assumptions. How old are you? You make a lot of freaking assumptions about peach. Please write in and yeah. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[23:50] Point is this. So the baby foods, uh, what you end up doing the thing that's amazing about it is that you can um the pulp that's left over after you take the water out of something, whether it be a fruit or a vegetable, is incredibly smooth and incredibly uh just like rich and dense and amazing. So the best baby food results I get, unfortunately, we need to get I mean, so you could do any fruit and just take the liquid out of it, and the pulp is amazing. So, like uh strawberry, but you have to take the stuff off the top so you don't have the little seedy parts. Amazingly smooth.
+
+[24:26] Peach actually, peach is in insane. So you get the peach juice and then you get all the pectins and solids. Amazing. But my favorite, my all-time favorite, is you take sweet potatoes, you heat the hell out of them. Actually, you know what?
+
+[24:40] This might no, it's probably better as well. So you heat that, you you know, you you you cook 'em, then you blend them with a little bit of liquid. Now I add an enzyme, which I'm gonna try to maybe should we try to get Monitor's Pantry to carry these enzymes eventually? Like the starch conversion enzymes that that distillers use. Um, like uh, and then you hit that and it converts all the excess starch to sugar, sweetens it up, and frees it so that you can get more juice out of it.
+
+[25:03] You spin it, you get the juice out, and the sweet potato that's left, you tasted that, even you like that stuff, right? Yeah, it's like super, super uh uh uh smooth and delicious. But you need the starch uh enzymes. You might be able to get samples of them. I'll get the ones I used again and and uh try to talk about them uh next week.
+
+[25:20] It was um it I used termil and I used uh sand clear, I forget the number of it, but they're they're distillers enzymes. Amazing, amazing, but not currently available. And in the in the kind of rush to put some products out there, I didn't want to add too many things, so Moner's Pantry hasn't started carrying that yet. They just started carrying the um the uh kitasan. But I would just try it with something like peaches or anything like that, because it's just after you vita prep the hell out of something and then uh break down the pectin so it's just solids, but it's not like a pectin anymore.
+
+[25:57] The texture of these things is freaking nuts. And the density of flavor is extremely high because you've removed a lot of the liquid. Anyway, that's how you do it. Um is that a good answer, Sas? Okay.
+
+[26:06] Next. You want to take a quick break? Sure. Yeah. Take a break, be right back with cooking issues.
+
+[26:21] This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollux, maker of America's number one organic pet food organics. You put a lot of care and thought into what you eat. After all, you're a food radio listener. That thoughtfulness goes hand in paw with how you feed your pets. Purposeful pet food doesn't happen by accident.
+
+[26:39] Castor and Pollock scours the earth to carefully select the best organic and responsibly sourced ingredients. New Pristine from Castor and Pollox is the only complete line of pet food made with ingredients that are responsibly raised, caught, or grown. Feed your dog or cat the new standard, like grass-fed beef, wild-caught fish, and vegetables grown without synthetic fertilizers or chemical pesticides. Pristine from Castor and Pollox. Purposeful pet food.
+
+[27:08] Learn more at heritageradionetwork.org slash pets. And we are back. So uh still trying to deal with our technical issues here. Um so what else? Anything good on the spinz all front?
+
+[27:25] We're about to ship these suckers. They're like we have over 500 of them made, tested, wants to know what their shipping confirmation number is. How well they're gonna ship it like a bunch of people from Canada who were missing numbers in their addresses who have been contacting us. What do you mean missing numbers? Like if their numbers 101, they only put 10.
+
+[27:52] So what's for clearing those up, Canadians. You're very helpful. Wow, she's anastasia, so it still hasn't come through, so might as well just read me another question. Someone wants to know if you're coming to Northern California anytime soon. Not that I know of.
+
+[28:05] If I do, though, I'll mention it on the air probably about 10 minutes before I go. That is true. This guy wants to know sardines or other oily fish, which is better. Packed in water or oil. This is a Nastasia.
+
+[28:16] Now I understand why she doesn't want to read questions because she's read like one half to one quarter to one-tenth of the question. The person is interested, because I remember the reading it this morning, the person is interested in increasing their omega-3 fatty acid consumption. I thought you don't believe in health, though. I don't, but I still know technical stuff. Why don't you read the the So they're interested in increasing their their omega-3 fatty acid consumption?
+
+[28:41] And they want to know whether or not the oil in um the oil packed sardines, uh, somehow the oil leaches out the omega-3 fatty acid so that they've uh because you typically drain the oil in the sardines. Even though when I was a kid, Nastasia, I used to like I would like every week when I went to visit my dad, we would get a can Booker. We would get a can of sardines, and I would sit and I would dip cheese and breadsticks into the oil and then eat the sardines. Oh. Hardcore, right?
+
+[29:13] Anyway, they want to know if the omega-3 fatty acid is leached out by the oil and if they should eat water packed. And now I will say what I always say, Nastasia. First, I looked in the scientific literature, I could find nothing on someone testing residual omega-3 fatty acids in sardines based on packing technology. Apparently, either just I missed it or no one's done the study yet. Two, I will say this.
+
+[29:34] Forget your health, my friend. Sardines packed in water are the devil. Sardines packed in oil are what you want to eat. But e even Booker prefers sardines packed in oil to sardines packed in water. And I prefer skinless and boneless.
+
+[29:48] Put your headphones on. Yes, he does prefer skinless and boneless. I think most people do, although I wish he would eat the bones because they have more calcium, but I will agree that I don't like the gritty texture. Is it the gritty texture of the bones that you don't like, Booker? Uh yeah.
+
+[30:00] No, okay. All right. All right, next question. Um this guy wants to know. Uh I seem to recall that a while back.
+
+[30:08] He discussed a study on cooling sous-vide proteins. Yeah, read the actual question so that listeners, listen, so listeners can understand what the question is. All right, okay. Specifically, you were comparing proteins that we that were cooled immediately on ice. You didn't mention gousot, so how could you say you've read the whole thing word for word?
+
+[30:28] Oh, I thought I said gousot. No, go, go. He said gousot. All right, go all right. Just start again, start again, start again.
+
+[30:34] I seem to recall that a while back you discussed a study. Gousot? Bruno Gusso. Cooling Sous-Vide proteins. Specifically, you were comparing proteins that were cooled immediately on ice compared to a stage technique which involved room temperature, then cool water, then ice water.
+
+[30:47] I cannot recall the results of the study or your thoughts on it. Since I'm always looking to improve my sous-vie products, can you please elaborate on this topic? Nate. Alright. Oscar worthy performance necessity.
+
+[30:58] I appreciate that. The uh yes, so uh this is something, and by the way, I will say this for the for the record again, even though I've said this eight million times. There is no best way to do anything, right? This doesn't exist the best way to do anything. There's what you like.
+
+[31:19] Here's another thing. You cannot, you cannot determine what is even the best for you in isolation because you cannot trust yourself to um you cannot trust yourself to have the same or even similar taste buds to everyone that you're cooking for or to even like the same thing. So I've been running uh back when I used to teach uh sous vide and low temperature work at the FCI, I would have 20 or 30 people uh and we would have every class we would run the same test on 20 or 30 people. And it was extremely edifying to me to realize that your what you prefer is not the same across the board. It's not a hundred percent uh of the people like it one way or the other.
+
+[32:05] Most things are only small differences one way or the other, like in other words, it's only a small difference at all. And then in general, what you have is more people than not like it one way than another. So this is one of those uh cases where that cooling technique you use when you're doing sous vide work, right? More more people than not prefer it slightly when you chill it properly. Uh and this is how is this the reason why.
+
+[32:33] If you chill something immediately by taking something out of the sous vide bath and throwing it into uh ice water, right, the proteins cool relatively quickly, and Bruno Gusot discovered that the amount of liquids that the meat uh can reabsorb as it's cooling is lower if you chill it rapidly because it will stop reabsorbing uh liquids once it can goes below a certain temperature than if you cool it rather gradually. So Gusot has done uh did this uh he he has this like kind of bell curve where you take the meat, ideally, you take the meat out of a out of the bath, uh you put it on the counter for 10 to 15 minutes depending on thickness, you put it into running tap water for 10 to 15 minutes depending on thickness, then ice it down to cool it. And he found for him that is ideal. And then uh me, you know, uh thinking that that was kind of not, you know, couldn't possibly be true, that that was just a bunch of hoo-ha, ran the test uh many times on groups of twenty people, and by and large, people did actually choose uh a multi-step cooling process. Now, the benefits between just letting it rest on the counter for uh twenty minutes, fifteen, twenty minutes before uh cooling it all away, uh, were almost the entire benefit as opposed to um wait, you know, waiting for um you know, like doing all three.
+
+[33:57] So, like doing all three did win slightly, but you ended up winning almost as much just by doing a single step by letting it sit on the counter for a while to cool down before you before you ice it down. I will also say that these tests that I ran have this caveat, and also the test that Bruno Gusso ran have this this caveat. They're only for meats that were cooked, chilled, and reheated. If you're not going to reheat it, I don't know that you would have the same kind of results. And this is a mistake that a lot of people make, including myself, when you're telling people how to cook things or what the best way to cook things are, is you assume that by changing one of the variables in your process, you're not changing the the result of the thing that you're testing.
+
+[34:38] So in other words, it could be entirely possible that rapid chilling of the outside of the meat, which is what I do a lot now when I'm doing sous videos so that I don't overcook on the sear, right? Maybe doesn't hurt it at all because you're only rapidly chilling the outside portion of the meat and then immediately reheating it. You know what? Nobody knows because nobody's run that test. And so you can't say that this multi-step chilling thing works for anything other than full uh chill and reheat.
+
+[35:03] Anyway, long answer to a short question. But hey, did we get any uh things on the suckling pig by the way? No, nobody's got anything. Suckers, suckers on suckling pigs. Stop.
+
+[35:10] Next question. I just stared down that guy outside until he looked away. Nice. All right, next question. The rest are really boring.
+
+[35:19] Okay. You know, it's really boring, waiting for you to read it. Why don't you just read it? First, Dave, I have to say I just loved your book, Liquid Intelligence. All right.
+
+[35:28] Okay. Yeah. Nastasia is just making fun of me. It's not making fun of me. Just read the question.
+
+[35:34] You say thank you. At work, I'm trying to create mocktails for our clients because non-low alcohol is becoming more popular here in Belgium. Alright, the problem with this one is the question has a lot of like long ingredients. It's gonna be. Yeah, so you chose this one specifically because it's impossible to read.
+
+[35:49] No, the next one is the worst. In terms of length of reading? Yeah. The guy that's like cryogrinder, big ol' thing. Alright, you're Nastasia, you're a nightmare reading these questions.
+
+[35:59] Like like do you want me to read this one or you want me to read the next one? I can't, I can't. There's only two more. We gotta call her on the line now. The problem is I can't parse that question in like in the air.
+
+[36:07] I need to look at the ingredients on the page. You're better off just giving me your phone. Call her on the air. Hey, Dave. Uh, this is the last calling from Seattle, Washington.
+
+[36:15] How are you doing? Yeah. Um I was the guy who bugged you on Twitter a couple weeks ago about the deep fryer. I was just surprised. I Dean Wiley's uh thing that looked pretty cool.
+
+[36:25] But then I just realized there's like no good like prosumer deep fryers out there on the market. Is that true? That is absolutely 100% true. The fryer that he has, the Cajun Fryer, is good. It just doesn't have uh a thermostat.
+
+[36:42] Right. So you have to sit there and throttle it. But the you know, it is what what'd you say? Just put a melt on it. Yeah, if they if they ever sold them, right?
+
+[36:52] So but the the other thing is is like it throttles in the back. So it's got like it basically is like the most like boneheaded of uh thermal management techniques. It's just like literally like you have like a uh a thing in the back and it's like and shoots, you know what I mean? But you know, if you could if you sit there and throttle it, it does a great job of cooking because it has the one thing that no uh home fryer has, which is a cold zone, right? The other good news about it is that it's got that full down lid, so all of it basically stays contained.
+
+[37:25] You don't have to worry about it. Uh unlike mine that I have to put a lid over and like you know, all this other stuff. But mine has you know a basoval and and thermostatic control. Now you could probably post rig. The problem is if you post rig gas equipment, you're putting yourself in some danger unless you really, really, really know what you're doing.
+
+[37:44] You know what I mean? Because you're messing with gas, right? So you know, but that said, I've used his uh Cajun fryer, uh, and it you know, it works really well, other than with the caveat, like I say, that it doesn't have its own thermal control. But it heats up pretty quickly. All right.
+
+[38:03] Yeah, but it's definitely something that should should exist. Like, I don't know why anyone doesn't make uh no one as far as I know, you could make a prosumer electric fryer with at least a marginal cold zone. The problem is that all of those things are built to be uh countertop, and the the height of the basket would just be so high. Think about it, right? So if you're gonna put a cold zone, you actually need a drop area and a trough for stuff to collect.
+
+[38:32] And so if that cold zone is, you know, like eight, eight or nine inches high, you're lifting the entire surface, the the the fry level of your fryer up eight to ten inches. And so now it's becoming a pain in the uh in the behind for anyone other than Mark Ladner to use in the kitchen because you need to be really tall to be able to look into it. You know what I mean? Uh because it you know you don't want your fry baskets like crammed up by your shoulders when you're lifting them out, you know. And I'm I'm of kind of low average height, and even for me that would be kind of uncomfortable.
+
+[39:04] So if you were shorter than me, then you know it would be even harder, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Someday, not good stuff out there. Maybe maybe you know, maybe Booker and Dax product number four after the next one.
+
+[39:18] We already know what the next one's gonna be, but after that one, maybe maybe maybe the fryer. You don't like you don't like frying stuff? You don't want me to build a fryer? Why do you not want me to build a fryer? She's sitting here shaking her head.
+
+[39:30] No, why do you not let me know? Because we have a long-term plan. We have a long-term plan. That's right. That's right.
+
+[39:34] It's not in the long-term plan. No, that's true. Uh all right. Nastasia, it's just your text. I'm getting other people's sex in.
+
+[39:41] Uh so uh what's it? Okay, I have one that's not with a bunch of stuff. This is the same. Well, by the way, I'm sorry for the technical thing. We'll answer the mock tail question uh next next week.
+
+[39:50] The issue, I remember some of the issues with the mocktail, so if I can just like say some stuff about mocktails in general. So the the the issue is is that uh this person's in Belgium, right? And they want to do some mock tails at their bar. They're a professional bartender. Uh, and they wanted to replicate an herbal liqueur among other things.
+
+[40:05] Now they I have done a lot of work. Now nothing is gonna taste like a like the actual uh herbal liqueur that it has alcohol in it, right? But uh having done, Nastasia and I with Piper did uh knockoffs of Kampari, right? Back in the day that were non-alcoholic knockoffs and compari. In fact, we did it for this show.
+
+[40:24] Someone asked us for it, and we came up with a recipe for a non-alcoholic compari-based soda knockoff for this show with genshin and all that. Remember that? Like years ago when Piper was still with us? But wait, what for this show? Someone asked about it on the show, and Piper and I just made it, remember?
+
+[40:38] And then we came on and we tasted the different compari, we tasted genshin and all the different anyways. Um I've been doing this a lot recently, is just doing infusions, tea style or tisane, if you I hate that word. I hate it. Why? Because it's disgusting and so it's pretentious.
+
+[40:55] Like you use a lot of disgusting. What was the word that you didn't like that somebody used recently? What? In your natural environment? What's it called?
+
+[41:03] What? In situ. In situ. In situ. Yeah.
+
+[41:06] Okay, I don't like that. Anyway, so there's got to be a better. Like the problem with the word tea is that tea implies that it has actual the like tea, Camilla in it, right? But it's but if it's something that's not tea and you call it a tea, because people are like, I want an herbal tea. And then you're like, well, it's not really tea.
+
+[41:23] But then like someone's like, oh, tisane. I'm like, oh, tisane. Oh, so you mean that like you stick your pinky out and you fly with Minuchin? You know what I mean? It's like, you see that, you see that Instagram post?
+
+[41:32] Yeah. So the treasury secretary. Uh-huh. So his wife's an actress. Really?
+
+[41:39] Gets off of a uh official plane. This is hilarious, gets off an official plane and just like hashtags all of her clothing. Like Aramez and like I don't even know the rest of the like all the like the fan time, you know, whatever they are, like fancy, fancy folk. And someone was like, We're to be out of touch. And she's like, you know, we sacrifice a lot, whatever.
+
+[41:59] I'm not gonna get into it because it's not a political, this is not our political show. By the way, someone asked us, when are we gonna do the political show? We need a guest. All we need is a start-off guest, someone we can argue with, you know what I mean, one way or the other. Like, or better yet, two people who are opposing where we get to be in the middle and take both sides is probably the best way to do it.
+
+[42:16] Anyway, so back to this. Back to the so making teas or tisans, whatever you want to call them. Uh I would just make a whole bunch of things with different herbs and then mix them in. What we did is we just made kind of reference batches like fairly strong of these things, mix them in, measure the proportions, and then that use that as a first approximation to doing an all-in-one brew, which is gonna change, and then do that and then um go from there doing non-alks. But the the real thing, the real trick, and I'll talk more about this when the bar opens in a in a month or so, uh, month and a half when we open the bar, uh, because we're gonna have a huge mocktail program uh at the bar.
+
+[42:54] And I'm never gonna use the word mocktail, and you'll never hear the word you'll never hear the word mocktail out of my mouth again. I don't know. Does anyone got a good good non-alcoholic cocktails? Or non-alcoholic something, but mocktail, literally, you put the word mock in it. You put the word mock.
+
+[43:08] I i.e. either fake or I am mocking you. How do you expect someone to walk in? It's like, think about this. You drink alcohol, you're writing a menu, right?
+
+[43:19] A customer comes in, customer wants to be happy, and you write on the menu that you are mocking them, right? Like words have meaning. Mocktail. Do you want to order? Like, let's say you weren't drinking, would you order something called a mocktail, or would you just have a glass of water because you don't want to be mocked?
+
+[43:35] I glass of water. You have a glass of water. Yeah, yeah. Well, Nastashi's like, I can't imagine walking in, having to deal with other living, breathing human beings and not needing an actual drink. Yeah, yes.
+
+[43:53] Alright. So uh so the other main thing dealing with uh non-alcoholic drinks is getting the the the texture and the sugar level right. And I'll talk a lot more, like incessantly about that after we open up the program in a month and a half, and I have tested all of my theories in the real life on actual living, breathing breathing human beings. Uh so what's the what's the next one you said you could read? Um okay.
+
+[44:17] I had a bunch of questions from from two weeks ago, too, that I haven't answered, but I can't get to them. And I had really good answers. Like on smoking, on uh like outdoor cooking. Someone wanted to do an outdoor griddle, a plancha, and a and a and a a Komodo, a Kamado, like an egg-style grill. And now did I already talk about that one?
+
+[44:35] Yeah. I did? Mm-hmm. So, all right. So maybe I already talked about that.
+
+[44:40] She's just saying that, so I will stop speaking. All right, what's the question? What's the question? I have been watching the development of the Searsol and Spinzel, and love the way you approach problem solving. Your products are innovative, affordable, and the first of their kind.
+
+[44:51] Wait, but this person, they want this is an actual question for the show? Oh. But go ahead. Go ahead. I have a problem.
+
+[45:00] I open a restaurant. There are so many problems with equipment and the ancient technology that drives them. My favorite task is vacuum. My favorite task is vacuuming my grease trap that every two weeks gets clogged with food product. Is the grease is an afterthought.
+
+[45:15] The obvious solution is a garbage disposal, but with the ever increasing rental market and the fact that we are trying to groan our fast casual small spaces are our target. There's not an option because we don't have the room for a sink that has the attachment, and even the food debris, especially rice finds its way down the drain. My first crazy idea was an inline grinder that activated when the sink strain was open, thereby sucking the water down faster, increasing efficiency, and puring the food scrap to pass through the trap. Then I saw your new spinzall and it hit me. How could we guarantee only water like product was entering our sewer system trifugal force?
+
+[45:54] Right. So the problem, yeah. So the problem with using a centrifuge as a grease trap technology. So if you think about it, like the biodiesel people, when they come and pick up your spent oil, right, to make their bio. You ever driven behind one of those things and smelled the French fry?
+
+[46:09] Yes. It's crazy, right? It's crazy that like all with all the processing and turning into gasoline, you can still smell the fry behind the car. You're like, it's just the car is sitting there like all through the conversion into gasoline, through the putting it through the engine, putting it through the catalytic converter, out the pipe, into the air, and into your vent. And you're like, French fries.
+
+[46:32] You know what I mean? That's some persistent business right there. Anyways, um the biodiesel people need to dewater their uh the stuff that they're taking in, and they use a centrifuge, right? And they use a continuous centrifuge that in a lot of ways operates very, very similarly, if not identically, to the way the uh spinzall works in terms of continuous centrifugation. Problem is, when you're doing something like uh biodiesel, you have a very large amount of oil and a very small amount of water, and the water stays inside of the rotor for the entire time, and you're done uh with that particular batch when you need to uh stop because you've filled it with water.
+
+[47:13] All right? Okay. So the problem here is you have the exact opposite. The vast majority of what you have are is non-oil. His is water-based stuff.
+
+[47:24] And so you and you you want to basically do the opposite of what the centrifuge does. Now it's possible to have uh there are continuous centrifuges that um basically like uh eject the heavies and the lights, and you get to tune the ratio at which you get rid of the heavies and the lights. So cream separators, which work on a disc uh separation, they do this. They're not a hundred percent good, and typically they don't work well with a lot of large and trained solids. So you would need some sort of pre-grinder to begin with.
+
+[47:57] But they also rely on something that you don't have, and that is a relatively constant proportion of heavies to lights. So the input into a cream separator is whole milk. And so therefore, or actually even you know it's higher, it's it's actual whole milk, not what we call whole milk anyway. But like they rely on a relatively constant supply so that you adjust how much of the heavy stuff, the milk you're taking out, and that uh by adjusting that adjusts how much of the cream is pushed out of the top when you when you uh get the flow rate right. So there's they're all based on kind of a constant input basis.
+
+[48:30] So for you, instead, you I don't I don't really know how you would uh get to do it. I mean, like i I guess if it was my livelihood, I I could try to figure it out. But it seems like it would be a rather difficult problem. There's probably an easier way to do it, right? Yes.
+
+[48:46] Anyway, all right. We got any more questions? The one about the plasma and ultrasonic. Uh do it. What so the person wants to know called in before, has access to a lot of equipment at their uh in their lab.
+
+[48:58] What's their name again? Uh Tom. Tom. Tom Colden has a lot of equipment in the lab, was uh specifically interested in uh searing of meats, and has uh some sort of something that generates plasma. Now, you know, plasma is you know, you ionize the atmosphere, you get plasma.
+
+[49:13] Now, uh wants to know if this is going to be good for for searing meats. Now, uh, I got into some sort of a I I didn't realize it was a tussle, but someone later said it was a tussle on searing uh on uh on Twitter. And the fact of the matter is is that you don't want to go too high. Now, uh famous uh story, which I think I've said on the air before, uh Harold McGee uh you know went to uh Moto, the restaurant back when Homaro Kantu was alive, and um they famously used to use a laser to shoot things and light them on fire. And Harold had said that you know that that super high temperature, that super high uh, you know, uh energy incidence c created a lot of off-flavors.
+
+[49:57] He said it tasted like burnt transformers to him. He didn't enjoy that high uh temperature taste. I, you know, with uh Ariel uh, you know, through her work with the GCMS when we were kind of working on the spinzall, we we'd always thought that it was uh unburnt gases, unburnt uh you know, uh Mercaptins that are added to propane that caused the what we call torch taste. And in fact, her work seems to indicate, although it was you know very preliminary, that um that in fact it's just uh combustion products that are made with you know with these super high uh incidence of energy onto the surface that uh of the meats actually creates secondary compounds that are undesirable. So uh what my takeaway, and it hasn't been fully tested, is that very, very high temperature or very when that's temperature is the wrong way to put it anyway, because temperature doesn't really have meaning in this sense.
+
+[50:50] It's super high energy inputs uh very fast into the surface of things like meat cause it to have undesirable flavors. And my guess is that plasma would uh do the same. Now, I think I've said it before on air. I'm very interested if anyone out there has a uh Q-switch laser, CO2 laser. I think you can Q switch a CO2 laser.
+
+[51:13] If anyone has one out there that they can flash, I'm super interested in doing uh like a double beam spreader, so I have a known uh energy density on the surface of um of the of a meat and actually testing what like whether or not like very short duration pulsed energy also creates all flavors. I'm just super interested in like working on all of the on all the dynamics. So if you have two beam spreaders, you can spread the the uh energy out. You could create any known um incident watt density uh onto the meat, right? And then you can test like uh constant watt density versus uh switched watt density.
+
+[51:53] You could do anything, but I don't know anyone that has that kind of a setup who's gonna let me come play with it. Uh so last notes, uh we'll be here next week, right? Mm-hmm. And then, but that week we're going to I'm going to Harvard. You're not going to go with me this time because it's on the holiday weekend, right?
+
+[52:07] We're going up to Harvard. So I don't know if I'll be back there on that Tuesday, because I'll be I'll be teaching at the at the Harvard class. And uh Harold McGee and I, the public lecture in uh Cambridge in two weeks. Harold McGee and I will be there. I will be talking about uh Saratoga spring water and other weird beverages.
+
+[52:25] Uh and uh Harold will be talking, I think, about coffee and tea and stuff like that. So check it out, and we'll see you soon. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[52:44] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[53:23] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:10] This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollux, maker of America's number one organic pet food, organics. Look for their newest line, Pristine, the only complete line of pet food made with responsibly sourced ingredients. Learn more at heritage radio network.org/slash pets. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:38] Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:17] Joined as usual by Nastasia of the Hammer. Sorry, sorry. Hold on, I did I didn't announce you yet. I was just bringing the microphone. That's the rules.
+
+[1:25] Sorry. Wait. Join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[1:33] Yeah? Yeah. Got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? Doing good.
+
+[1:36] Yeah. And because again, this is Take Your Son to Work Life. We have Booker Arnold with us in the studio. Now you say something, Books. Stop clapping.
+
+[1:50] So Booker. This is a I don't know. I've already gone over Booker's hatred of the happy birthday song before on the air. The uh the happy birthday song. So that noise you're hearing is Booker practices.
+
+[2:02] What he'll do is is he's like, if anybody comes to my house and sings the happy birthday song. No, but mace. He's like, I'm gonna mace them. Wait, are you trying to say that today is some kind of special day? No, no, no, no, no.
+
+[2:19] I just like I just like uh just thinking about it. So literally somebody's birthday. He'll pair up. No, no, no, it doesn't matter. He'll practice spray.
+
+[2:27] So watch this. So what uh what we used to do is we'd practice, I'd start singing and I'd see what his reaction time was just like off the bat. I'd be like, happy see that's how fast his reaction time is, which is why slow, dude. Which is why we don't let Booker to you. Happy birthday.
+
+[2:42] Yeah, you're really late. I was on my phone, it doesn't matter. Which is why we don't let Booker have bear spray. Uh because if Booker had bear spray, he would have used it by now. Uh yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:54] So uh Sas you cook anything interesting recently. Dave, anything? Anything interesting cooking adventures or food adventures recently? Uh nah, not really. No.
+
+[3:04] I've been practicing. I remember uh I think it was last week. I I was talking about the steamed cheese. Steamed cheese. I've been practicing with steamed cheese.
+
+[3:12] I have to say, like, I really like steamed cheese. I'm good. I'm super pro steamed cheese. So like you know, look at the sound of that phrase. Steamed cheese.
+
+[3:24] Yeah. Uh but uh what's what's weird is I'm trying to emulate the exact texture that we got. I got at uh Ted's in in Meriden, the steamed cheeseburger joint. Uh because I told you they use it for their version of a grilled cheese as a steamed cheese sandwich. And they also do steam cheese fries.
+
+[3:43] They basically steamed cheese is the stuff. The burger they steam because they kind of have to, because that's the Connecticut thing. But the real innovation people is the steamed cheese. So I'm working on it. I'm gonna buy maybe some cheese steamers.
+
+[3:56] I've been making my cheese steamers out of aluminum foil because I never have anything that's nice in my rice does. That's right. That's right. Speaking of, uh speaking of nice, I'm going up to Hallville next week to talk on Monday, which is of course a holiday. Harvard is so ruining your Harvard is so holiday.
+
+[4:15] Like Harvard is so like, I don't give a crap if it's a holiday. And we've got this peaceful hotel called the Sheraton Commander. It's only six floors high, and if you get a good position, you go to a lounge with free snacks. Yes, so it's it's called the club lounge. If they don't book us in the club lounge, which they never do.
+
+[4:36] New York, of course. But P.S. no offense, we call it the Sheraton, even though it's Sheraton at New York. I know, that's why I said it that way. Yes, I'm just letting people know because 99.9% of the people call it Sheraton.
+
+[4:48] Or the Sheraton. Yeah, would you rather live in the Sheraton Commander on the club level with the free snacks where the dogs can stay because it's a pet-friendly place, or right across the street from where George Washington took command of the troops, or would you rather live directly on the Bruckner Expressway? On the expressway. That's a hard that's an ex- Come on. Boston Sharotin Commander.
+
+[5:08] Whoa! Be quiet. Be quiet. You know why? It's because it's because they have a T there.
+
+[5:14] They have a subway that he's like it's his second favorite one. Anyways. No, the what about the path? No. Yeah, but that's that's basically just I mean, no offense, Jersey, but that's like like like glue stuck onto New York, right?
+
+[5:27] It's like if New York City wasn't here, you think they'd have a path train booker? No. But what's wrong with the place for George Washington? No, I'm just saying, it's like all history, steeped in history, blah, blah, blah. Nothing wrong with that.
+
+[5:37] So, anyway, so on Monday, which is uh which is it, Labor or Memorial? I always get them confused. Labor Day. Uh on Labor Day, Harold McGee and I are going to give a uh talk, a public lecture to which you are all invited at Harvard in Cambridge. This is a new stuff.
+
+[5:55] Well, for whom? It's it it's uh stuff I've never talked about before. It's called New Angle New Angles on Old Beverages. You like that? New angles old beverages.
+
+[6:06] So you know what I'm doing? I'm gonna talk a lot about Saratoga, Saratoga water. In fact, I'm going, because I'm gonna be having Saratoga water at the new bar. I'm going with some of the opening bar team tomorrow to Saratoga to get a bunch of uh Saratoga water to see whether or not it's stores properly in kegs for a month because we're assuming we're gonna need a month of Saratoga water. So we're gonna taste out Saratoga water, real Saratoga water, not that not that rain water in a blue bottle that everyone pays for that has a Saratoga label on it.
+
+[6:36] People, that is not the real Saratoga water. It comes from Saratoga, but it's really just rain water. Uh Stas and I, when we were up there last year in September, we were like, this is for this is for jackasses. Yeah, right? Yeah.
+
+[6:49] Uh we never got I never got to write the article because I was too slow, and Lucky Peach is now closed. But we have an entire article that I was supposed to write on Saratoga Springwater and why, you know, I'm interested in Saratoga Spring Water. So I'm gonna do a version of that. Plus, it's possible. I'll tweet it out if I get it.
+
+[7:08] I don't even want to mention what it is, but I might have the world's greatest water-related surprise at the Harvard lecture that you could possibly imagine. I'm not gonna say it because I know it maybe. I'll tell you off air because I don't even want to put in people's minds that they might be able to taste the stuff that I'm gonna try to get a hold of. I don't even want to put it as a seed in people's minds because if the if I did anyone who likes any sort of quality at all, anyone who has any sort of soul, anyone with a modicum of spark in their eyes would cancel their plans and go to the public lecture. If I got this, which I don't know if I would.
+
+[7:55] Are you gonna take the baths that we did? No, I don't have time. I'm just gonna go harvest, harvest the waters and go. So have we talked about it on air much? Just a little bit, right?
+
+[8:04] The Saratoga water. The original Saratoga waters were kind of medicinal waters, which no, but they're very highly, let's say, uh taste, they have a very high taste to them. Egggy. Some of them are eggy, sulfur-y, right, and some of them, but that flashes off pretty quickly. A lot of them are carbonated from the ground, which is why we were interested in them in the first place, because both Nastasia and I believe that uh God wants you to drink water with bubbles in it, right?
+
+[8:30] Whereas Booker only drinks flat water because he is an enemy of quality, right, Booker? Booker, are you are you an enemy of quality? I don't know. No. Well, are you uh are you getting better about being picky or no?
+
+[8:50] No. No, no, you're not getting better about being picky. Last week, uh, didn't you mention last week he's back on chicken now? On bacon, I heard. No, no, no.
+
+[8:57] He he he he's not back on bacon yet, back on chicken. Red meat. So red meat on baby steps. Also, I found out if you're a parent, uh, you should probably not do kind of what I do. So, like I constantly mangle phrases.
+
+[9:10] You you know me, Stas. I constantly mangle phrases. So I realized like uh a couple of weeks ago that Booker only knows the mangled versions of the phrases, and so he uses only the mangled versions of the phrases. Like what? Well, then I also found out I saw the show The Tick yesterday, and the tick used a ver a similar variant of a mangled phrase that I used on the TV.
+
+[9:30] My version is we'll burn that bridge when we get there. When we come to it, we'll burn that, which is of course not exactly what you're not supposed to do. First of all, you're not supposed to burn your bridges at all. And we don't even get to cross the bridge because we burn it like when we get there before we cross it. We'll burn that bridge when we when we come to it.
+
+[9:46] And so the tick used a variant of that, which I was appreciated, kind of, you know, because I think that's what the phrase should be. Because it's really like you never get to win. The other one I like to say is find a penny. I told you this. Find a penny, pick it up.
+
+[9:59] This is what Dax says all the time. Find a penny, pick it up. All that day, your luck will suck. Find a penny, let it lay. Your good luck will last all day.
+
+[10:10] Yeah, and I just have because who the hell wants to pick up the damn penny, right? So instead, it Dax is like, whoa, Penny, I didn't pick it up. Woo! So uh anyway, so like I use I mangle all sorts of phrases like that, but I realized you probably shouldn't do that when you have kids. Oh Penny, can we get to the guy from last week that I said was middle-aged?
+
+[10:28] Oh, Penny is one center. We already answered his question. I know. So what do you mean get to him? He already answered his question.
+
+[10:33] But we didn't answer the question. You said you don't know that he's middle aged, and then he wrote in to me and said, just turned 38. So middle-aged man is right. Thanks, Chip. Yeah, but what does that have to do with anything?
+
+[10:44] That you happen to be right. Doesn't mean you are in general. But what about what about Dito who wrote in who's a who's a woman? I know. But did you see the disgusting thing she said?
+
+[10:55] Don't you think? Which I appreciate. Supposed to prove that you're just wrong. Leaf. Nastasia, which we'll get to the leaf fungus in a s in a second, but Nastasia suffers from the same problem that afflicts all of everything I see on the TV nowadays, which is you choose one specific and then say, see, it proves the general incorrect thing that I say.
+
+[11:22] The majority of our family. You have not shown me any majority. Like the thing is, is like it may be true or may not be true, but you take individual examples of things. This whoa whoa. This also happens in cooking.
+
+[11:34] People take individual examples of things and falsely generalize constantly. That's con this is what people constantly this is how people get everything wrong all the time. False generalizations based on one or two specifics.com with your age and your marital status. Thank you. What is a marital status have to do anything?
+
+[11:57] Because most of our You care about gender. What do you care about marital status? Because they're mostly married whose wives won't let them buy the kitchen equipment. I hate your characterization of our listeners. Please write in the air.
+
+[12:07] Speaking of which, you want to take a call? Yes. Caller you're on the air. Oh, okay. Yeah.
+
+[12:12] Also, may I say this one thing before you start? Nastasia's point is also self-proving. Please what she is saying is please write in if you fall in the demographic. Yes, or that is just human nature. Or whatever.
+
+[12:26] Human nature. Whatever you are. Right, sorry, question. Question caller, caller you're on the air. For the record, I'm 29 and I'm married.
+
+[12:34] 29? 29, not middle aged stas. Okay. Yeah. Louis from Florida.call in again.
+
+[12:40] How's it going? I'm going all right. How's Florida? Really, really wet right now. It's been raining for the last four days, which is something good, I would say, instead of the pot.
+
+[12:55] Right, right. Well, it's good good for you guys, not so good for the guys west of you. Anyway, what do you what do you got going on? Oh, well, um, I was actually had a question about the spincil. I ordered one, still waiting on it.
+
+[13:06] But my question is, are you able to clarify beer? So I have done some tests in um, I have done some tests uh of beer, uh actually not beer, I did cider, and then uh I did some tests spinning yeast out of beer, and it was successful. Uh the issue with it is obviously um because you're shooting it out of the um out of the spinzall when you're doing it, it tends to um it tends to throw some oxygen into it at a point usually in the beer making process when you don't want to have oxygen in it. So, uh right, because it's at the end when you're doing it. And so generally at that point you're not really wanting to uh oxygenate it uh somewhat.
+
+[13:53] Um but the um what I would say is is when I did it with cider, I also did it at a point where you don't want to add oxygen to it at the end. And so what I did was is after I clarified it, I um I hit it with some CO2. I carbonated it to flash off the oxygen real quick and to protect it. So I had to do an extra um, you know, post post um filtration step that you wouldn't have to do if you were, let's say, uh like Krausning or natural decarbonating or something like this. Um so that's that's kind of my only caveat.
+
+[14:29] Now what I was thinking obviously is if you were gonna do it a lot, I would just like put CO, I would just like uh put a line, turn it on, and bleed CO2 into the into the chamber uh as it was going uh through the top, and like then I feel that you know you probably wouldn't have an oxygen problem, but you'd have to run some tests. So the answer is yes, it works. Also, I mean, uh what I would do it for, frankly, is I would use normal racking for 99% of what you're doing, unless your beer is extremely cloudy, and then I would use it for recovery off the stuff at the bottom just to increase your yield. Because otherwise, you know, to really get a super super clear result, you're gonna be talking like fairly slow rates, like 80, maybe 100 mils a minute. And so, like over a you know, a five-gallon batch, you'd be kind of be talking on uh a lot of time.
+
+[15:21] It'll work. You don't you don't need to attend it because you know, unless you're actually filling up the rotor with gunk, you know, you're not gonna have to like change it a lot, but it is just a lot of kind of physical time. So those are kind of the caveats I'd I'd put in place. But yeah, I've tested it with cider and small tests with beer. Perfect.
+
+[15:38] And I have another question. Uh-huh. Um, I was listening to you earlier in one of them you talk about uh starch enzyme breaker. Uh-huh. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
+
+[15:48] Sure. Uh so I'm trying to remember, I didn't uh write down the ones that I was using, but they're also made by uh Novozymes um and distributed by Guzmer, who's the ones that do it here now. Uh Monitor's Pantry got me some samples, but and hopefully someday they're gonna carry them. The ones that I used were one called termil, uh, and I used another one called uh San Clear, and I forget what the designation of it. And there's another one I think was called super like super san or super clear.
+
+[16:18] And that there's basically there's two, there's two or three different enzyme types that are used in uh distillation for starch breakdown. And the the one, uh one of them is used kind of during what's called the uh like during the cook process, and it's to make the the starch slurry uh thinner, right? Because it's a lot easier to get to everything if you break up the stuff and the star starch slurry is not so uh thick. And so uh, and I believe that one is I believe that's the termil that does that one. And then after that, they use a sacrification enzyme, which is I believe the the sand.
+
+[16:56] But again, it I'd have to go back and look at the look at the data on their things. Now, when I'm doing it, because I'm not doing a two-step process, uh, what I would do instead is I just did things like cook a sweet potato, steam or roast it, or cook a potato, steam or roast it. Same with anything, or like uh a banana that had excess starch in it, and you take the leftovers, you cook it, and then you you I would let it cool and I would hit it with a mixture of all the enzymes at once, uh, and then just let it sit uh long enough to get to get it to go just to see if that was a reasonable procedure. And I was able to get pretty good results. That's sweet, the sweet potato paste was just crazy.
+
+[17:32] I didn't really actually like regular potatoes converted into a sweet paste as much as I kind of thought I would. Um but it's really good for that. It's also it was good at knocking excess starch out of corn, um excess starch out of uh I didn't try it very much on, for instance, one of the problems like I haven't really done a lot of testing with starchy bananas to see whether I could knock the starch out of them because they don't really have enough flavor for me to make to make it worthwhile. Ditto with starchy apples, usually starchy apple like isn't ripe yet, it doesn't have like uh full flavor development, so you wouldn't really want to be clarifying a starchy apple. Like I was focusing on things more that had starch that you know that you'd want to um you know that that uh even at maximum flavor potential point have starch in them, you know what I mean?
+
+[18:19] Yeah, I know. Understand. Yeah. Perfect. All righty.
+
+[18:23] Speaking of spinzalls, uh, we sent an update yesterday. I don't know what it is, Doz. I got a bunch of people on Twitter saying that they didn't receive the email update. I don't know what it is, but I had them all email modernist pantry. If you haven't also checked their spam sometimes, they all said that they did.
+
+[18:37] Sometimes they give an email address that they don't use anymore when they bought the spinzall. Well, okay, well, rather than blaming the customer, I'm just saying if you haven't received it, email modernist pantry and let's figure out why you didn't receive the update. Right. Where do they email Modernist Pantry? Uh well, you want to say what the preferable email is?
+
+[18:58] I think it's just info at modernist pantry.com. Info at modernist pantry.com. Okay. And then say regarding the kind of spinzall. Then uh they built all the the update was they built all the units, but um, you know, our guy Chris in China wasn't happy with the QC on it.
+
+[19:18] Uh and they had two they basically they they put rotors in that weren't at our spec for balance. And so we had to re they literally unboxed every single uh unit and tested them and divided them into piles of ones where they had to rebalance the rotors and not and it's looking like uh we are going to be okay for everyone who is pre-ordered to ship this week. I'm gonna send out an update uh later um later this afternoon or possibly tomorrow when I verify the exact numbers. But it looks like we're actually okay to ship all the pre-orders um this week. We the the all the additional ones that we ordered are probably gonna be postponed for a while while they rebalance the rotors.
+
+[20:02] But anyway, so that's the uh spin's all update. Hey, uh before we take another call, do you want to hear some of the demographic information the chat room is reporting? Yes. All right, we got 30 married, and my wife doesn't allow me to have a pressure cooker. Uh 33 married, two kids.
+
+[20:20] Uh 41 single, and I buy all the stupid kitchen equipment I want. Nice. But the what's the no gender, just just single. There's no gender in any. This is all male.
+
+[20:29] This is all male. What? All right. Uh very upsetting. I love men.
+
+[20:36] There's one more. There's one more. This is like I'm like a reverse Trump. I love men. But like uh go on, David.
+
+[20:44] 48 married, two kids, one dog. Nice. That's all we got so far. Keep it coming, Chatry. I'm gonna say what if you got the and that that person just uh added, I have an expensive fistler pressure cooker.
+
+[20:55] Don't tell my wife how much it cost. Didn't tell my wife how much it cost. Saying you already have the one dog, just get the second dog. Just get the second dog, anyway. Uh women, women of the world, please.
+
+[21:06] Yeah, call. Call or you're on the air. Uh-huh. Hey, how you doing? All right.
+
+[21:12] Uh my name is Quinn. I'm from Canada should I uh enter my demographic information too yeah I don't know no uh all right fine yeah what do you got uh 24 male and is a desperately single an option all right what do you what do you got for us okay so my question is uh I've set myself a bit of an impossible task so I'm making food for people who are on the keto diet so that's basically no starch no sugar or almost no starch no sugar all right so keto being K-E-T-O and not the not the uh the the Andean capital high up in the mountains yeah yeah I would much prefer to be on a keto diet only eating foods that are grown high in the Andes that would be an awesome diet but anyway go ahead yeah not my thing but uh you know I'm cooking for people yeah so uh my goal is to make an extruded pasta okay with with no starch basically no starch yeah so my initial plans are basically roasted slash dehydrated cauliflower probably a lot of egg powder and then maybe some flax or chia to sort of reinforce it just to really blow it through their colons uh okay the uh hey booker, what what do you think about cauliflower? It's disgusting. I actually love cauliflower. But can I can I I okay.
+
+[22:59] I don't know how that mélange is going to work on extrusion, but can I can I push you in a different direction for a minute? Me? No, not you, Booker. Caller. Can I push you in a different direction for a minute?
+
+[23:11] Okay, look. Sure. Are these are these folks vegetarians? No. Okay.
+
+[23:18] Uh do you have any uh any fish allergies or or shrimp allergies in in this group? Nothing at all. Okay. Wiley Dufrein, went like way back in the day, um way back in the day, so I'm gonna want to say like two thousand and two or two thousand and three or something like this, in the early days of uh using transglutaminase, meat glue, the enzyme that makes meat stick together, came up with what I think is one of the greatest uh meat glue uh which available also in Mono's pantry, not to not to you know push the chill for them, but you know, too much. But they uh you take the transglutaminase powder and you you basically you you robo coo or blend or process whatever you want.
+
+[24:00] Shrimp is what he used, um, enough you know, salt to make it taste good, and then about a percent, one percent of um transglutaminase and then enough liquid to make it pumpable. And then he extruded it directly into uh water, hot water. I think he was doing he might have been doing fifty-seven or he might have been going as high as sixty C. I don't remember. Uh and then at that temperature the um enzyme immediately sets the shrimp into a pasta.
+
+[24:32] And it has the because you salt it, the and and because it's finely uh blended together, it actually has tooth like a pasta. And it's it's great. Works great. Um it works fantastic and so that's a shrimp pasta the other pasta also that wiley dufrain came up with and this is the other one I'd recommend if they don't want to go it's not strictly vegetarian because it's obviously because it's got gelatin in it but he used to make vegetable pastas by um and you'd have to look up the recipe's been published on the internet a couple times but it's it's a little bit finicky you got to work on it a little bit um but he mixes gelatin and he he does the whatever makes the puree that he's gonna uh turn into a pasta and then he mixes uh gelatin you know he'll he'll um uh put the gelatin in water dissolve it mixing transglutaminase to it uh I think he was using the straight stuff the T I but I can't remember uh he says my memory is he said it works with RM which is the one with casein in it but it really doesn't need the T I which is the straight stuff so you you mix the gelatin and what happens is is the transglutaminase cross-links the gelatin and when you cross link gelatin it no longer melts so once you spread it out on a sheet let it set overnight overnight you let it set overnight then you can cut it into noodles like whatever you want fettuccine tagatelli whatever you want how you actually pronounce that cut it into those things and it doesn't break anymore it sets into a pasta also with a nice texture. So those are the two both things I would recommend for these kind of completely non-starch.
+
+[26:05] Now gluten free pasta not a problem but no starch at all I would recommend um I recommend going the transglutaminase route uh either with a directly with a protein like shrimp, which is the classic one that Wiley did, or with Wiley's um uh uh gelatin vegetable noodles. They're awesome. Yeah, my my backup plan, well, the ultimate backup plan is again a ribbon style noodle. Because I mean I can make that in my sweet. Because I mean maybe we're just you try which egg yolks, you spread it in, you set it, you cut it, you're done.
+
+[26:40] Right, I forgot extrusion, extrusion. But the the shrimp noodle ones you can definitely extrude and they're pretty good. I would try certain mushrooms and maybe some like milk powder and my egg powder would add enough protein content and maybe some gelatin. Well the meat is yeah, the main structure of uh mushrooms is I believe kitosan, uh or you know, chitin rather, I think. Yeah.
+
+[27:06] Uh and so I don't think they'll glue together. I mean, obviously they provide kind of a a kind of a meaty texture. I've never tried to make a pasta. Basically, you need to hold it together with some sort of protein that you can set, right? So you're already on the path.
+
+[27:20] It's either like eggs. If you were gonna add flax, you're basically adding that just to snot it up so that it holds itself together while you're setting with the protein. It's not gonna permanently set it, right? Uh another quick question. Uh-huh.
+
+[27:33] If I if I do a first attempt with just the egg powder, should I extrude right into some hot water? Uh I don't know. I've never done it. So it's hard for me to say. Uh I would um I mean try it.
+
+[27:51] I mean the the thing is it doesn't hurt to try it because when you're putting it through your machine, you can just put some directly into water and some not and see what happens. I'd be hesitant to say I have a recommendation just because I have no idea how it's gonna behave. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I just thought I'd see what was what was possible.
+
+[28:06] Yeah, but uh but look up why look up Wiley's shrimp noodles and give it a give them a shot. I think you're gonna be pleasantly surprised, and so will your keto friends. Yeah just like I'll pay shipping to Canada from Laurent. You should not get them to kill a Canadian distributor. No they they send them yeah they send to Canada but I don't know how it works.
+
+[28:25] Yeah but you have to pay customs and stuff. Yeah well I don't know I mean maybe um activa which is a Ginamoto they probably have a Canadian uh distributor but the problem is is that when you buy directly from them you have to buy in kilo units uh it's also available in stores uh here so Wiley who is you know Wiley and Nils Noran were the two kind of first chefs who were using meat glue here in in uh you know bet down you know in this area in the States uh and Wiley's they sell it now at Calustian's which is a store you know here in in Manhattan but they sell it in like they sell it at room temperature repackaged in plastic bags and while every time Wiley goes in he feels compelled to go tell them that he disagrees with this way of storing it but whatever we can do what are you gonna do. Anyway anyway good luck let uh tweet on tweet me back on cooking issues let me know how it works maybe if I have some ideas they'll call back. Yeah and tweet tweet me on cooking issues let me know uh how it works out. Uh all right you want to get some uh some questions here I don't think want some do some questions can we do some questions right dude yeah we got one more call if you want to take all right call you're on the air hey Dave how you doing doing well good um so I'm 24 I'm a male and I'm trying to convince my significant other to buy a spinz all nice um getting there um anyway I have two questions for you.
+
+[29:45] Um one, I tweeted to you a while back about uh trying to keep my pork terrine from oxidizing, and you had mentioned vitamin E. Yep. Um do you have any specific resource for that, or is that as simple as just like going to a like a supplement store and just getting vitamin E? Okay, so the answer is yes. I do not have a specific uh source.
+
+[30:08] It's just like that's typically so if you see like vitamin E or tocopherol on a label that's added as an antioxidant, like that's for oil, and I know commercial oils are doped with that to keep them from uh oxidizing, but I don't have a source. I would just go, yeah, buy some pills and then like blend them up, you know what I mean, and see kind of uh see kind of what happens. But you know, you know, back when um you know I was at the FCI and I could do this kind of crap every day, I would just tell someone and be like, blend these two things and then we'll let them sit a week and see what goes on. But like I haven't been able to run those kind of tests in in a in a while, but that's what I would do. But I wouldn't ever rely on just uh, you know, oh this seems like it's okay.
+
+[30:50] I would definitely do an A B test. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, but I would just try that. Unless someone in the chat room maybe has a source, Dave, if you can uh put that out to them, see what they had to say.
+
+[31:00] Chattering? Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay, all right. I'll definitely give that a try.
+
+[31:06] All right, cool. And if you if you find anything out, remember to tweet me back so that uh I know what's going on, alrighty? Yeah, absolutely. Um more quick question for you, actually. Sure.
+
+[31:15] Um I've been doing a little bit of research on cocktails and specifically, or excuse me, specifically, um uh gin martini, and I've heard somewhere along the lines, I think it's an old wise tale, about um not shaking the martini. You're supposed to stir it as to not quote unquote bruise the gin. Uh-huh. Um is there any kind of science behind that, or is it just a wise sale? By the way, is it wise with an S or wives with a V?
+
+[31:45] It's wives. Wives, not wise. It's not an old tale that is wise. It is a win. It's a tale told by old wives.
+
+[31:53] Yes. Really? Yep. All right. Um, so uh Hashtag feminism.
+
+[32:00] Uh so to answer your question, and this actually, while we're doing this, there this goes right into uh the next question. So I'm gonna answer your question, but I'm also gonna read this question from uh John uh Vavrushko about uh about the very similar thing. So you're gonna hear me read this question and then I will answer both of them at the same time. Uh I've been reading your book. Uh I have a complex question.
+
+[32:26] I'm not sure it will yield anything useful, but it's been driving me crazy, and maybe it's dumb. Uh this is from John. Um I want to figure out what the relationship of trace oils and certain spirits, absinthe, gin, whiskey, is to the difference of uh shaking and stirring them. Does it have something to do with why whiskey becomes cloudy when it's shaken? Is it related to the Luching effect, absinthe experiences?
+
+[32:47] I've heard a uh uh a term along the lines of spontaneous emulsion, but I really uh don't know much about it. I know you're busy and your email is flying off the hinges, but thanks, regard John. So maybe I was supposed to email it back. You know, people, you know if you have a question, I'm not gonna email you back. Yeah, but I mean, all right.
+
+[33:02] Well, this is the venue in which I answer questions. Anyway, so now let me answer both questions. Uh should you shake your gin martini? And by the way, by the way, in my world, you have to say vodka martini. But if you say martini, it is Nastasia?
+
+[33:21] Right. Even Booker, Booker, do you know what's in a martini? He's not even listening to me anymore. He's playing Fruit Ninja. No?
+
+[33:28] Anyway. Dave, you're with me on this, right? Uh yeah, sure. Yeah. So it's But how many people would get upset when they ask for a martini and then they're surprised when it's Jin.
+
+[33:38] I think a lot of people would. Yeah. What? Yeah. What?
+
+[33:41] Yeah. What? Yeah. What? Yeah.
+
+[33:42] What? I think I think society is conditioned to the vodka martini. Mm-hmm. For sure. I think if you want a Varca Martini, you have to say vodka Martini.
+
+[33:51] I look, I don't like people. I think you're right technically, but I shouldn't be able to do it. I don't like people to get confused. So at the bar, we would always well at the bar you write Martini and then you write under it gin so that people know what they're getting. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:03] But yeah, I mean I would always tell people what they're getting just because it's you don't want people to be surprised. You know what I'm saying? Uh the world really is falling to pieces, isn't it? Um so the which by the way. The world is a vampire.
+
+[34:19] Are you familiar with Peter Tosh? Anyway, do you know that song? Uh Vampire. Anyway, the um not his best work. It was the album that came out right before he died.
+
+[34:29] Uh what was that album called? I think it was called No Nuclear War. And uh I that's the album at which so I I had been listening to a lot of uh like the Wailers and Bob Marley, and I had just gotten into Peter Tosh as his own person. I bought that album, and then he got he got basically murdered right before he was about to go on tour for it, and then now I was gonna see him. Do you have tickets?
+
+[34:50] No, no, he hadn't gone on tour yet. I I like, but I I'll like I always miss people like that. You know what I mean? Like I'd obviously missed Marley because he had been dead by the time I was listening to him, but then Tosh, I had an opportunity and didn't. So, people, you should go see the people you want to see now while they're still alive.
+
+[35:06] You know what I'm saying? No. Oh, like Billy Joel. Like you're not like you're not gonna go see Billy Joel. Destasia is never gonna see Billy Joel alive in concert because Nastasia had tickets to see Billy Joel alive in concert, and instead was at a stupid event with me.
+
+[35:24] That by the way, she try every once in a while she tries to blame me for making her be at that event, and then she's like, you know what? No, it was my fault. You didn't know there was a concert. I didn't tell you, I forgot. Then literally, like, as we were packing up, she's like, I was supposed to be a Billy Joel concert tonight.
+
+[35:38] And even though Billy Joel is one of Nastasia's favorites, you're not a Neil Diamond fan like I am, though, right? I if there was one song I could eradicate from Earth, it would be Sweet Caroline. It's a good song, crap on you. Uh I'm with you, Nastasia. Why?
+
+[35:52] Thank you. Why? Because of all the little inserts that people do. It's a good song. What about Crackland Rose?
+
+[35:58] Yeah, yeah, all the rest are fine. That would that would be one song I would eradicate, even more than Pretty Woman. You have something against the Roy Orbison song Pretty Woman? Kind of. Okay.
+
+[36:07] Oh, Love Roy Orbison, though. Yeah, I have some great Roy Orbison stories. Uh but the uh when you guys would hang back in the day? No, but a friend of mine hung out with him and has what might be the best story of all times. But uh not for all.
+
+[36:21] But the uh what are we talking about? We're talking about wait, oh Billy Joel. So actually, we're talking about cocktail. Billy Joel via Martini, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:28] So, like, so so Nastasia refuses to go see Billy Joel. I offered to get her tickets once, and she was like, No, I don't deserve it. I will never see Billy Joel in concert. Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. I'd be hard on another person doing the same stupid thing.
+
+[36:42] What was the game they used to play at MTV, Nastasia? Would you rather be uh Billy Joel or um what's his name? Ugly Man. Which one? Uh Tom Petty.
+
+[36:53] Yeah. And what's it and some of the things no one would ever be Billy Joel. Really? Yeah. They'd rather go petty?
+
+[36:59] Yeah. What about you, Dave? Yeah, Petty. Wow. What about you, Dave?
+
+[37:04] I mean, I like Tom Petty, but I mean, Billy Joel, I think is I mean, like, I I I don't care like what I look like. I mean, you're Billy freaking Joel. We'd rather be Billy Joel. That means you have to play the garden every month. Oh, yeah, that's so terrible.
+
+[37:21] And like, but my point is that. Sounds like a drag. Look, Billy Joel came up with more good songs than almost anybody you can, even if you don't like him, you have to say that he's come up with more good songs than most people could dream of coming up with. You know, how could you not like, I mean, like, I like Tom Petty. You know, running down a dream, full moon fever, the heartbreakers, all good.
+
+[37:45] But I mean, Billy Joel, like album after album after album, and then people give him crap for not coming out with anything for the last 20 pictures. He's like an albums guy, like he has his albums stand as artistic works. I'm gonna tell you this, he has more albums than I have. So you would rather look like Billy Joel. Oh, the question is look like?
+
+[38:10] Yeah. I'd rather look like Tom Pellet. Oh, just look like oh, I thought the looking like Tom Petty was just supposed to discourage you from picking Tom Petty. Yeah. What about Tom Petty or Rico Cassick?
+
+[38:25] Okay, back to back back to cocktails, back to so so so anyway, so uh with a martini, there's with any sh with any cocktail like this, when someone says bruising, right? It is somewhat confusing with the idea of looshing, right? So in a loosing situation, something with absinthe, what's happening is there is uh uh uh an oil in it, an essential oil, that is um anisole, I believe it is, I forget the name of it exactly, but it's in um it's in the absinthe, and at the high alcohol that absinthe is uh bottled at, it is soluble. And because it is soluble, it's clear. When you add water to it, it very quickly shifts into a place where it is no longer uh soluble in that anymore.
+
+[39:12] The water content goes too high. And at immediately at that point, it drops out of solution, but it does so uh in such a way that the the actual um uh bits of oil are so tiny that they form a spontaneous emulsion, and it it stays uh emulsified for a while. After a while it will settle out uh if you let it sit for a long time. If you let something loosh, and then you either heat it, like with a red hot poker, or you because I've done it, or you let it sit for a long time, the loosing effect will go away. But that that's what uh looshing is.
+
+[39:44] When you shake a drink, uh you get swirly things in it, but really what that is is just uh bands of different dilution when that when it's not mixed, aeration, and a lot of other shaking secondary effects that aren't really don't have really have anything to do with solution. So if you shake a uh something and it's turbulent, cloudy, and you can see the aeration, it doesn't look 100% clear, and you let it sit on your uh bar top for a mere couple of minutes, it will actually um go clear again. So, in order to make the the the things like whisk in whiskey, like all of the wood uh, you know, the polyphenols and whatnot from the wood, in order to drop those things out of solution and actually have it go cloudy, you need to remove uh a lot of liquid. So if you're distill redistilling an aged uh liquid, once you get all the alcohol out and some of the water, it'll at one point go bang, it'll go opaque and you won't be able to see through it anymore. And that's because you've um uh oversaturated the remaining liquid with you know the wood solids that have been um absorbed into it.
+
+[40:53] But you won't get that from shaking. But uh where that where this all uh fits together, people uh what they say is bruising is a is a bad visual phenomenon, but in reality, shaking a martini is a bad idea because it's just too diluted, right? So, unless you're going to shake it for just a small amount, well, you you want your martini to be clear, crystal crystal clear. So, in order to do that, you want as little agitation as possible. So, if you actually want an overwatered martini, right, what you should just do is stir it longer so that it still uh looks good.
+
+[41:28] Alternatively, you could just add ice water to it. A classic stirred martini is only gonna get down to about zero degrees Celsius, maybe minus one, minus minus two at the most. If you shake it, it'll get down probably to about minus four minus five Celsius uh and be consequently more uh diluted. Now, uh if you're having a vodka martini, odds are maybe you want it over chilled because it doesn't have any oak problems, and really you're just trying to slam hard liquor as fast as you possibly can. In that case, you should just water it down to whatever uh uh amount you want to water it down to, and then throw it in the freezer and then chill it down to whatever low temperature allows you to slam back the alcohol at the fastest rate humanly possible, because it seems to me that is why you have a vodka martini.
+
+[42:14] Is that incorrect, Mr. Right? Anyway, I hope that answers that question. Um via Billy Joel. Uh we have uh another uh You want to take a quick break?
+
+[42:26] Uh we'll take a break, we'll be right back with more cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollox, maker of America's number one organic pet food, organics. You put a lot of care and thought into what you eat. After all, you're a food radio listener. That thoughtfulness goes hand in paw with how you feed your pets.
+
+[42:55] Purposeful pet food doesn't happen by accident. Castor and Pollock scours the earth to carefully select the best organic and responsibly sourced ingredients. New Pristine from Castor and Pollux is the only complete line of pet food made with ingredients that are responsibly raised, caught, or grown. Feed your dog or cat the new standard, like grass-fed beef, wild caught fish, and vegetables grown without synthetic fertilizers or chemical pesticides. Pristine from Castor and Pollux.
+
+[43:24] Purposeful pet food. Learn more at heritageradio network.org/slash pets. It's three minutes off. And we are back. Uh so let's get into uh proof that we actually have some women writing into the show.
+
+[43:45] Do we have any more demographics, David? No, everybody's quiet. Yeah, all right. Alright. Although I did get a recommendation for getting vitamin E from Amazon.
+
+[43:54] Go figure. And they've used it for cooking? Sounds like it. Alright, well, check out the chat room on that. So uh Dito, spelled like the musician Dido, but pronounced Dito, who is a woman, writes in.
+
+[44:07] Right. Nastasi's like, I'm not even gonna do it. Is it the musician? It is not the musician because the musician's name is Dido. This person's name is Dito, spelled Dido.
+
+[44:16] Maybe she's covering up her really identity. Yeah, that'd be a that'd be a slick cover. That'd be freaking amazing. I like that stuff. Do you like that stuff, Sus?
+
+[44:25] No. Why? I don't like it. Why? Sad.
+
+[44:29] Sad smiles. You like sad things. No, I don't. You like angry things. Yeah.
+
+[44:33] Yeah. Uh okay. Coming from Amsterdam and a real foodie at uh at heart and soul, I decided to move to Spain and follow my dream to become a winemaker. Currently I'm working in a vineyard in Spain starting harvest tomorrow. I'm enjoying your show uh every day as I make my way through the back catalog.
+
+[44:50] I could not help but notice Nastasia's hate for leaf viruses, something I encounter on a weekly basis. So for you to enjoy Nastasia's leafy face, and she so uh Dito sent uh pictures of Dave. You've seen him those leaves with those growths, those like tumorous growths that pop out that look like columns of tumors coming out of the tops of leaves. Uh no. What?
+
+[45:13] Look up leaf virus on your Google. Anyway, so this is a uh a mite bud disease called uh Aranosi, kind of harmless, but it indeed looks disgusting. So in the US, uh it's uh it's called uh Arenaum mite, a grape Araneumite, which uh there's a bunch of different uh gene genuses and species, but the the family name is Areophyta, which is a family of more than, as is off Wikipedia, more than 200 genera of mites, which live as plant parasites, commonly causing gulls or other damage to the plant tissues, and are hence known as gull mites. And the one I think in the US is called Colomeris Vetus. And the get this does.
+
+[45:52] They are tiny microscopic mites and are yellow to pinkish white. The mites are worm-like and have only two pairs of legs. Their primary method is to spread by wind all over Nastasia's body on a wide range of plants. And has several major pest species causing substantial economic damages. I have chills.
+
+[46:09] Yeah. So they eat on the stuff as it's growing, I guess, and then like perturb how it grows, and that's why it grows into those weird shapes. Anyways. Dito also has some questions. Many people I talked to seem to proclaim that white refined sugar is the devil.
+
+[46:24] Why is this? And why is it bad for you? Is this the same hype used around fat and salt as health enemies and still is? Yes. So, yeah, I mean, this is my opinion.
+
+[46:34] This is my opinion. My opinion is, yeah, sugar is sugar, no matter how you get there. And yes, we add a lot more sugar to our diet than we used to, and that high level of sugar, you know, may be not healthy. We may not be designed to have that much sugar. I don't know.
+
+[46:51] I'm not an expert in that. What I am telling you is that if you're eating sugar, you're eating sugar. And whether that sugar comes from taking an entire orchard of pears and condensing it down into a cup so that you can pretend that you didn't add sugar to your fruit juice, to your cranberry juice, or as John Oliver so aptly puts it, bogberry. He is a funny guy. Have you ever seen that show?
+
+[47:12] John Oliver, fantastic show. I love that show. Fantastic show. Funny man. Uh, but the um.
+
+[47:19] So anyway, so sugar in any of its forms is is sugar. So that's why people are like, I don't eat sugar. I eat raisins. Raisin is like, is nature's like fruit sugar. It's crazy high in sugar.
+
+[47:32] So uh it might be true. The flip side of it might be true. There might be natural sweeteners, let's say honey, that do have other beneficial effects other than their sweetness that you do not get from refined sugar. This might be true. But to say that refined sugar itself is the devil, I think is just patently kind of anti-scientific and silly.
+
+[47:53] Now, it uh you might not like refined sugar because you might be against how it's produced. You might be against um uh labor practices, you might be against the state of Utah, which apparently Idaho and Utah used it, like the Mormons used to control the sugar beet manufacturer. You know that stuff? That was their thing of a jig. And did they like sugar?
+
+[48:16] Only beet sugar. Although many chefs, uh pastry chefs prefer cane sugar to beet sugar. Anyway, whatever. So there are some reasons you might not want to be uh part of uh sugar, and there are reasons probably to not have boatloads of it. Uh, but I don't think if you're going to use sugar, I don't think that by using uh, you know, brown sugar, even like naturally produced brown sugar like panella or um pilan chill or any one of these things.
+
+[48:43] I don't think any of that stuff's gonna save you from uh, you know, from anything that you're you know, versus white sugar. I think it's just it's just uh an absurdity. Uh two. I bought a big canister uh can bought a big canister of chantana. You know, I like to use the Spanish on it, but it's Xanthan.
+
+[49:01] See, this is why if you were in Spain, they you like Xanthan so much more than we do because chantana sounds cool, right? Sounds like something I want. Be like, ah, you know what? Sprinkle my sprinkle some chantana on that some on that some gun. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:14] Whereas like Xanthan gum sounds like some nasty business. You know what I'm saying? What do you think, Dave? What would you rather have sprinkled into your sauce? Chantana or Xanthan?
+
+[49:23] Chantana. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Which expires after December 2017. Is there really an expiration date on Xanthan gum?
+
+[49:31] No, no, no. There is not an expiration date on these things. When you're manufacturing a product, I know this from first hand experience. When you're manufacturing a product, you are obliged to put an expiration date on it. The Xanthan gum that you have, I mean, it's possible that some of it will break down in the absence of moisture uh over time, so it'll become less effective.
+
+[49:53] But uh, if you were to take that Xanthan gum and keep moisture out of it, right? So remember, if you put a silica packet into something, it's not food, don't eat it. Does anyone really try to eat those freaking silica packets, Stas that they write do not eat, not food all over? Maybe kids do. Booker, have you ever attempted to eat one of those packages that say do not eat?
+
+[50:12] No. Dave, you ever attempted to do that? Nope. No. Somebody has.
+
+[50:16] Um, so anyway, if you did that. Peter Cam screaming like a little girl. Yeah. Uh my phone, I forgot to turn off the thing. But if you did that, right, uh, and put it into the pyramids and waited another couple of thousand years and pulled that Xanthan gum out.
+
+[50:32] My prediction is it would still thicken your uh sauces into a snotty mess if you use too much of it. That's just my prediction. Uh question three Is there a way to keep Berna? Oh man. Is there a way to keep Bernays sauce stable for days?
+
+[50:47] I asked because I saw it at a butcher shop on display and it made me wonder. Thanks so much and best regards from a bloody hot Spain. Uh Dito. Uh so, and it says right here, Sas pronounce Dito, I'm a girl. Yep.
+
+[51:00] Yeah. I'm a girl, so she's like under 16. Okay, so another thing with Nastasia is that if Nastasia doesn't respect a woman, calls her a girl. Calls her a girl. I've seen her do it a million times.
+
+[51:15] I call each other girl. Yeah, but you it's like if you call yourself like, you know, girlfriends, I'm going out with the boys, that's one thing. But if you're like if you if you use it specifically to try to take away someone's authority by calling them a girl as opposed to a woman, I think it's wrong. And that's what you do. All right, we should get to the question.
+
+[51:34] She referred to herself. Anyway, so my point is uh so we asked this. I asked, uh I've never made one, so fundamentally a Bernays sauce is uh similar to a looser uh mayonnaise, i.e. um it's made with less oil than mayonnaise would be, and it's made with uh butter instead of with oil. So the problems are this that when it uh cools down, if the butter uh you know recrystallizes, it will could possibly break the emulsion.
+
+[52:02] Uh and two, because it has a higher water content, it might spoil bacteriologically, it might spoil, whereas mayonnaise, a properly made mayonnaise is actually, I mean, don't you know, take you know, but in as far as I've been able to tell, an actually proper mate, properly made mayonnaise after it cures for a while, is in fact shelf stable because it just doesn't have a high enough water activity, and the water that is there um it has enough uh acid in it to actually stop bacteria from growing, and so it is in fact shelf stable. It's basically awesome. Now, I put this question to two different people. Uh to I put this to uh Alex uh Talbot from Ideas and Food, and uh Alex said I said uh I uh posed this question and they said um um yes we made a reheatable recipe in our first book we keep it refrigerated and heat it to order and they use methyl cell uh F50 in it so check out his first book he sent me some pictures but I'm having trouble downloading because for some reason Heritage Radio doesn't want me to be able to use my phone or Wi-Fi they're trying to turn they Nastasia's phone keeps working but mine for some reason is not and I also uh texted Harold McGee and Harold McGee said there are no faux bernases out there made with mayo and no she said there are now can you just read there are faux berneses out there made with mayo and turmeric to make them look buttery but I think a real one will always break on rewarming after the butterfat has crystallized. Right so you have to do uh like a a faux version with uh like what I don't know whether Alex Nacke they also might supplement it with some oil so that it doesn't kind of uh recrystallize uh accurately wait Dave are you telling me that we're done to go no I'm telling you there is actually one more caller but real quick all right caller you're on the air hi Dave this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa how you doing all right how are you all right um on the subject of sugar and cocktails um I want to get your take on brandied cherries so I have a recipe that I like in terms of flavor and the consistency of the syrup but I'm wondering about firming up or or keeping the cherries firm.
+
+[54:05] I have uh Novo shape and I have calcium hydroxide calcium light gluconate. Uh-huh and what what would your approach be? I wouldn't use the hydroxide I would use uh actually yeah I would use a small amount of calcium chloride, small. I I don't remember the percentages off hand, but you basically just need uh just enough kind of calcium present to help in the crosslinking. Um I've run So would you do a novo-shaped soak beforehand or how how would you incorporate that?
+
+[54:36] Yeah, so when they do the novo shape stuff, a lot of times because you're you're leaving uh stem on, yeah. Um I would run some tests, I did some tests soaking things that are easier to get liquids into, because the problem with a cherry is that the skin is relatively impervious, which is why it takes a while for the stuff to go in. And I think why some people might pull the stems, although my you know, my step uh, you know, great my step uh grandfather who you know had cherries that were 70 something years old, their family secret was to never remove the the stems when they're putting them into the alcohol. But yeah, I would do a pre-soak because I don't know what novo shapes uh reaction to um alcohol is. So I would do a uh a pre-soak, and I know that some of these guys will needle the fruit slightly and then vacuum the novo shape into it.
+
+[55:27] So they'll like do like a light needling uh and then they'll vacuum the novo shape. The idea is that breaking the skin normally would would hasten the breakdown, but because you're about to cross-link all the pectin, it's not a problem. And so then they would vacuum the novo shape into the fruit on a on a on a soak, and you could do that in juice so that you're not getting any of the flavor out, and then brandy the hell out of them. That's my recollection. I never got I can't taste cherries anymore, and so like I've I asked the bar every year, maybe at the new bar we'll actually get it uh done, but I've asked to run the protocol, and once I have the protocol, I'll definitely what's your demographic information?
+
+[56:01] Are you willing to share? Sure. I'm 33 and married. Uh my wife is fine with the equipment, and she'll listen to the show as long as Booker is on or Dax is on. And she would also love to have Jen on, so I know everybody would.
+
+[56:16] We'll get Jen on someday. You know, we'll get Jen on. I thought of you with the cherries because I was out the Broadale in England and got to taste some delicious cherries. How were they? How were they?
+
+[56:27] Amazing. Had some cordia from Czech Republic, some lapins, a bunch of plums. How big how what in other words, like were the sweets and the sours in at the same time? Say that again? Were the sweet cherries and the sour cherries in at the same time?
+
+[56:43] It seemed like mostly sweet that they had just harvested. Oh my god, those are God's fruit. They're so godly. I love cherries. Someday someday I will kick this evil allergy and I will be able to have cherries again, and I will just eat cherries.
+
+[56:56] Cherries, one of the very few things I have never, I have never had too many cherries. I've never been like, you know what I don't want another one of? A cherry. It's never happened. You know what I mean?
+
+[57:07] And never now, probably never will. Yeah, I couldn't keep up with the tour because I was just stuffing my face and getting a stomach ache and continuing on. Right. Those fools in England are like, look at the trees. Nastasi and I were like, who cares about the freaking tree?
+
+[57:22] That was fun until we got to the gift shop. What? That was a fun time until we got to the gift shop. What was wrong with the gift shop? You wouldn't stop talking.
+
+[57:30] They have no, I was talking to the lady about the apple juice she was making because that's our business. Nastasia doesn't care. Nastasi was like, you know what? I won't spend the extra five minutes to actually have this be useful. Oh, ten.
+
+[57:42] That wasn't ten. Nastasi will spend. I had a lunch once with this. Oh, worst lunch of my life. It doesn't matter.
+
+[57:50] We were given the opportunity to taste hundreds of varieties of a fruit. I'm not going to get into it. I don't want to call anyone out. Hundreds of varieties, right? And Nastasia can't be bothered to put up with an hour and a half of a crazy lunch so that we just to be freaking polite.
+
+[58:07] Just to be polite. It doesn't even matter. Who cares? If it was an hour and a half of getting beaten with cricket bats, who the hell cares? We were getting something we wanted, and so you're polite.
+
+[58:16] And she's wasted days of my life since those uh that hour and a half years ago, bringing it up again and again and again. Anyways, uh thanks for calling in. We skipped the gift shop. Yeah. Good.
+
+[58:28] Let us let me know how the cherries work. Tweet me on out. Uh okay, so uh I'm being kicked off, but Caleb's, I got your buckwheat crepe crepes uh on on notice. I have some answers for you, I think, uh more uh next week. Uh we already talked about uh the outdoor Komodo thing last week.
+
+[58:45] Scott, I still got to get your question on smoke. And I hope Julian has not gone to uh uh what's it called? Hawaii yet, because I have some recommendations for your my ties next week. Oh, not next week, I'll be in Harvard next week, week after cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:12] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[59:38] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I try to be steady for my family. And my head's usually in the game, but after the abortion, I wasn't okay inside. I carried it like a hidden weight. Some days angrier, other days numbness. And I didn't know where guys were supposed to go for this.
+
+[0:12] Support after abortion. Helped me find support that fit. One-on-one, group or self-guided, virtual or in person, secular or faith-based. If you want to help men and women heal, visit support after abortion.com slash iHeart Dash Compassion. That's support after abortion.com slash Iheart Dash Compassion.
+
+[0:31] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill dot com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[1:02] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from early twelve to roughly twelve forty five from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:28] Good. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Tell tell him why you're good.
+
+[1:33] Oh, uh alright. Well, we'll get to that in a minute. We got Dave in the booth, how you doing? Um good. Yeah?
+
+[1:38] How about you? Doing all right. Alright. And before I say we have some special guests, but uh call in all of your cooking or other kind of any kind of question, really. Nastasi, do we really care what kind of questions I think?
+
+[1:47] Any issue. Any issue. So we're going beyond just straight cooking issues and we're just any issues. Call your issues. Call in your questions to 718 497-2128.
+
+[1:56] That's 718-497-2128. And I guess uh it's been kind of a rough week for a lot of the countries, so we should start out just, you know, our thoughts are going out to everyone who's been, you know, hit either by Harvey or Irma or any one of the other things that's going on right now. Um but we have uh two guests, long time uh recurring guests. We got uh Paul Pote uh Adams from uh What are you at now? What are you doing now?
+
+[2:21] Cooks Illustrated. I don't read my emails. No, he you give his email address. Oh, I don't read oh that's not I didn't give his full email. So you're at Cooks Illustrated now full time?
+
+[2:30] Yes. Are you an illustrated cook full time? Do you live in Boston now? No. I live in Queens.
+
+[2:36] Let me ask you a question, Paul. Any question? Uh okay, so I have the entire first several years of Cooks Illustrated going back to 1993, which is when it started. Wow. And some of the original Cooks Illustrated recipes from 1993, like for instance, their muffin recipe.
+
+[2:53] Still, I use that muffin recipe. It's a good muffin recipe. Yeah. Uh here's what I don't like about Cooks Illustrated. They're always like the best this, the best that.
+
+[3:02] You can't say anything's the best anything. It's like it's like here's a path. Clickbait. Here's the path. Have you had better muffins?
+
+[3:11] Uh I haven't really tried. I was like, I was like, these muffins are good enough. It's the best. But then how do they then then like here's the thing if you've been reading it since 1993, they'll come back like 20 years later and they'll write the best, and it's a different recipe. I'm like, can't both be free and true.
+
+[3:25] Well, you have to check the date. So wait, it's new bests. Now supercede just say just say here's an interesting take on what the journey to muffinhood looks like. First of all, like a better muffin than any preceding muffin. Do you like muffins?
+
+[3:41] No. What the hell's wrong with you? Who is partner in the Empayon Empire, formerly pastry chef at the Empayan Empire, but now just General Empresario and Wizard. How are you doing? I'm lovely.
+
+[3:58] Yeah, and and this is awesome because this is for the first time in a long time. It is take your kid to work life, but kids, but not mine this time. So who do we got here? Jackson. We've got Jackson, who's two and a half years old.
+
+[4:12] Hey Jackson, that's a good age. Stay that way. On his second day of school. So super exciting. Yeah, nice.
+
+[4:18] And we have Parker who is three months old. She's he's got a question for you. Yes, darling. He's gonna ask a pastry related question. Alright, so what do you got going on?
+
+[4:28] What's what's going on? What's shaking? What's interesting? Well, um, uh you know, I've uh had two kids, so that takes a bit of a toll on working the line in a in a restaurant. I bet.
+
+[4:38] Uh so pretty much once I was pregnant enough with Jackson and more of an inconvenience in the kitchen than a help, uh, I've kind of been on a little retirement, but uh doing cakes on the side, you know, helping out friends with birthday parties, and uh then uh it just so happened that a cake was Instagrammed by uh DJ Natalie from Baby DJ School in Brooklyn, and then all of a sudden a few of her clients were reaching out to me via Instagram. Oh, I want that cake too, I want that cake too. So kind of spiraled into a little side business of uh kids' birthday cakes, and so like like first a couple things. What's what's baby DJ? What is this?
+
+[5:21] Oh, baby DJ. Yeah, it's um it's actually a quite a phenomenon in Williamsburg. Uh really cool young lady named Natalie uh started this group uh she just teaches kids anywhere from ta like infants to young toddlers I think to four years old or something like that um how to DJ play with DJ equipment like scratching she has like all this different you know equipment that she brings with her to other someone's house with if they're hosting it or if they come to her apartment where she hosts it as well. Um she even did it in McCarn Park a couple summers ago please tell me they're like rocking like the Technics platters with wiggles on it with the wiggles please please no it's it's actually like she has old school records like things that you I've never even heard of but uh just not like one little duck no but she'll like uh what was it? I think she played oh she actually played um you down with OPP the other day or at one time and I was like should we be playing that for children well I've noticed that A A kids don't understand what that means and for some reason over the past five years when I was when it was actually relatively current when I was in high school college like it would get played but like it wouldn't get played at weddings.
+
+[6:34] Now every wedding class it and I saw I was at a wedding for a friend of mine a couple weeks ago uh and they literally they played OPP not really appropriate for a wedding and uh for those of you that don't know what this sounds about not appropriate for family show well some people say it stands for property Nastasia but then the uh but then the minister was freaking getting down to it. No the freaking minister was like was like other people's you know, it depends. It can be, but it depends on the phone. He has no idea what it means. The good thing is it's gender neutral because it gets 'cause they both they both start with P.
+
+[7:09] Yeah. Well, or certain euphemisms for them both start with P. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah.
+
+[7:14] Anyway. So uh the point is, but that's one of those, like now it's like a wedding standard thing. Which I had no idea. Like who why would you play that? What I've been noticing, every wedding I've been to this year, the DJ is a baby.
+
+[7:28] I think this all goes back to Natalie. It does. So now, okay, so what style of first of all, is this like is this like intentionally rich people's cakes? Um, well, no, I mean like it I kind of charge as as I as detailed as they need it to be. So um I don't even have like a set pricing yet.
+
+[7:49] I'm still working on that. But uh like one party I did was actually for a woman for one woman who had two boys, and so I had basically this this cake that on top of it there's a rectangular smash cake, which's a smash cake. Oh, for for first birthdays. What what is this? The kid gets their own individual little cake that they can destroy and get all over themselves and just thinking about that makes me queasy.
+
+[8:14] But that because then you know you're not ruining everyone else's cake bite. Yeah, yes. So is it on top though? So now I have mangled particles. No, because so what what I do is I have the regular cake, which is like maybe a big rectangle, and then um the rectangle a smaller rectangle on top, which is the DJ booth.
+
+[8:33] I cover that in like Bondant. Uh, and then I make a little gum paste avatar that is similar looking to the child. Nice. And they're like with headphones on, but like for real mate, not like 3D printed. You're not like 3D printing the child's head.
+
+[8:47] And uh they're standing up like spinning, and um, and then when it comes time to serve the cake, I just take off the DJ booth, give that to the individual birthday kid, and then everyone else gets clean cake that's not nice, not mangled. Yeah. No one really wants that mangled cake. Although the fonant's a nice touch because you can brush off most disgusting things. Of course.
+
+[9:07] I, by the way, I'm this guy, I love actual fondant. Like I like it with the 1% in the world. With the almond paste underneath, like old school stuff. Yeah. I love that.
+
+[9:17] Yeah. I I absolutely love it. And you know what I don't like? Buttercream. But apparently I'm the only guy.
+
+[9:23] I mean, like, uh, I'm not afraid of grease. You know what I mean? So I don't know why I'm not a huge buttercream fan, but I'm just not. But there are different styles of buttercream. That's there's that whole literally butter powdered sugar and vanilla extract.
+
+[9:35] But then there's also what I do is an Italian meringue buttercream. Yeah. Or an egg white buttercream. I mean, thank you. I would actually, you know what I I love, like, okay, so you I like fondant icing.
+
+[9:44] I love the even though you can't do it on a this kind of cake because it doesn't last. I like the old school straight up meringue icings. Those are delicious. Oh yeah. I like cream cheese icing on a carrot cake.
+
+[9:55] I like do you like that? Do you like the uh that crunchy coconut uh German chocolate cake icing stuff? I've always loved German chocolate cake. Really? I do.
+
+[10:04] Just I've that's like one of my one of my favorites. Really? Paul, where are you standing on this? I like it. I imagine this is the thing that Estasia does not like.
+
+[10:13] You like it? Mm-hmm. See, LA Girls Unite. Wow, that's crazy. That's crazy.
+
+[10:18] Like that's like right up the it's got like little things in it. Nastasi hates things with little things. Pistachios and coconut. Or not pistachios, um pecans and coconut, usually. But you hate pecan pie, right, Stas?
+
+[10:28] I don't like pecan pie. Okay. I don't either. Oh Jesus. We're from the same area of LA.
+
+[10:33] Love it. Uh there you go. We were actually born in the same hospital. Oh, come on, really. Like a month apart from each other.
+
+[10:38] Really? I found out because she was listening to the same music that they played in LA. What does that mean? I don't know. Like a certain area.
+
+[10:45] Like what? Like Sublime? Possibly kind of. Deeper. Yeah, like obscure.
+
+[10:44] You were listening to the thing. There's nothing deeper than sublime. Like literally, if you take its name at face value. I think you actually even said also that you I was talking to someone and I said like a word or something. And you were like, wait, that's my area.
+
+[11:04] Yeah. Like Covina. You're also from Covina? I was technically born in uh Arc well in La Cañata. I don't know what that means.
+
+[11:13] Is that good or bad? No, except the air the town. But uh I grew up in Arcadia, California. Also, is that good or bad? Now it's just it just is.
+
+[11:23] Yeah, it just is. Alright, so so back to cakes. So like there's a long-going thing with cakes in my mind. Maybe I'm just because I like to I like to like create fights in my mind. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:32] Between groups of people. So the fight that I have in my mind is the uh like the the image cake, the cake as like object, and then the cake as flavorful thing that I eat. Right. Do you A, do you think that's a real dichotomy? And B, where do you stand on that?
+
+[11:49] I always, and and my husband is very much this way too, is flavor is the first thing. You have to have a good a good cake that's nice and moist, that's I mean, doesn't matter what it looks like at the end if it tastes great. By the way, she mentioned her husband, that's Alex Stupak, and just to let you know, if if you said something tasted good and it wasn't, it was low quality, he might. I'm not saying he would punch you, but he wouldn't be. He's not he doesn't he'll death stare you.
+
+[12:17] Yeah, he doesn't enjoy things that he thinks are bad. We say it's accurate. He doesn't enjoy things he thinks are bad. In other words, he doesn't like he can't like let things slide so much. That's sort of just like you.
+
+[12:32] Yes. I don't know. We're different about it though. I mean, like he's really like, I feel like I've seen him, I don't know him that well, but I feel like I've seen him be kind of like deeply emotionally hurt by a low quality dish. Yeah.
+
+[12:44] You know what I mean? Well, other people's acceptance of a low quality dish. I was gonna say, but at the same time at home, he'll like eat a mayonnaise sandwich, you know. Uh mayonnaise is delicious. It's a good product.
+
+[12:54] We've actually talked about instead of him having a man cave, having a mayonnaise cave. Ooh, I like that. Uh I'm not gonna I mean I'm not gonna give too much out, but you know, I'm working on a new new barp right now, and we will have a mayonnaise program. Oh my goodness. We're gonna have a mayonnaise program.
+
+[13:10] Which we won't call it out, but like we are gonna have a wide variety of mayonnaise. I have found that uh mayonnaise is delicious. And for those people who do not enjoy mayonnaise, I'm not saying you have to have mayonnaise on a French fry, but if you don't like mayonnaise on a French fry, just grow up. Just grow up. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:31] It's like it tastes good. It does. It tastes good. You know, not on like when I was a kid, I would put now this is bad. I would put mayonnaise on hot dogs when I was a kid.
+
+[13:42] Why is that bad? Because you're supposed to put mustard on a freaking hot dog. Well, yeah, there are those those diehards that only mustard or mustard and relish, maybe. Uh mustard and kraut. Oh, yes, that yes.
+
+[13:53] I'm a mustard and kraut fellow. I mean, I was the kid who put mustard and ketchup on my hot dog. So Yeah, I did that sometimes when I was a kid. I sometimes would put all three in. But uh let me tell you something about uh about sauerkraut.
+
+[14:05] I feel that the average American hasn't had I'm sure the listeners here are otherwise, but the average American has not had good sauerkraut. The sauerkraut that you buy that's been like like uh like preserved and stabilized and whatever the hell else they do. No offense to the Sabret Corporation, but they're like Sacco sauerkraut that the average person is buying in a supermarket. It's garbage. Compared to real sauerkraut, I mean it's straight up garbage.
+
+[14:30] It's not even the same product, it doesn't taste the same. It's like it's not right. No. The sauerkraut we make at our house, it stinks up the entire fridge, basically. Yeah, but that's what you want.
+
+[14:40] That's what you want. That's what you want. Okay, so back to the cakes. Okay, so back to the cakes. Yeah.
+
+[14:42] Um so flavor, of course, is the first thing. Um I'm personally not a fan of too much gum paste and fondant as more so than the cake. Like, you know, you see all those things where it's like they have these beautiful sculpturesque cakes and stuff, but it's like 75% fondant or gum paste and for structure or just for looks. Just for like the looks. Right.
+
+[15:06] And to me, that's I mean, it yeah, it's art and all, but the kids, if it's for a kid's party, they want the cake. I mean, unless you have a sheet cake in the back, which I'm totally down with. But you you are down with that. So you're down with like you're down with like the cake as like a hat. It's almost like an Easter bonnet, and then you have like a sheet cake in the back.
+
+[15:22] I never thought I was, but then when I lived in Chicago for a year, I was working at a bakery bitter sweet. Um it's called bittersweet. Um, and uh we were all about making these faux cakes that you know are made of styrofoam and they're just decorated, and then you just have one little wedge cut out uh that you insert real cake so that the bride and groom can do their ceremony on that. That's creepy to it's creepy though. But it's no, because then in the back, everyone has not fondant covered delicious cake.
+
+[15:51] Okay, okay. Okay, they reuse that cake. That's what's creepy about it. So No, no, you don't reuse it. Maybe you didn't.
+
+[15:58] No. Where's the wedge cover? Come on, yeah. You're big and individual. They basically have like a plywood styrofoam cake, and then they just insert the fake wedge for the cut and the face smash.
+
+[16:07] I do not believe in the face smash people. Does anyone here believe in the face smash? What is that? What are the room feed each other the first time? And then and then you're like, oh oops, and you shove it in their face.
+
+[16:17] No, no good. And they no good. And but they the thing is, is it like I've heard that you like re that people reuse the blank. Oh, I've never ever heard that. Because I'd be like, 'cause they because it's a big thing.
+
+[16:28] Do those people get divorced or not? Did it stick? Was the marriage good? Because I don't want a cake that has a bad record. No.
+
+[16:34] No, because why would you pick like the bakery wouldn't go back and pick it up? Like once you drop off a cake, that's that's it. You never see those people again. Oh, I was thinking, well, because I I I associate it with like big houses that do weddings, like where they have like three weddings a day and they're just crank a lank and out. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[16:50] No. You've been like it's like it's like nch wedding. No. You know what I mean? Wedding machines.
+
+[16:55] I I I've No, because you can't also do that because the cake, the faux cake is already is is completely covered in fondant, and then once a slice is taken out, you have a I'm making air quotes people. What about the top three layers? Uh you know, I when I've done wedding cakes, um like I actually my husband and I never did that whole ceremonial each or one year anniversary cake that's been in the freezer. My cousin ate my cousin went into my aunt and uncle's house and took it and ate it. Oh yours?
+
+[17:27] Yeah. Oh really? Yeah. Which was it? I'm not gonna call them out on it.
+
+[17:31] Well, but my mom actually did save that top layer for us to have that ceremonial thing, and we never did it. And I think just last year she finally threw it out, or maybe this this past year she just threw it out. We've been married for 10 years. You didn't just eat it? No, we've been married for 10 years.
+
+[17:47] I'm not gonna eat it. It's been frozen. Yeah. Frostbite. Might as well lick an ice cube.
+
+[17:52] I mean, but yeah, but you know, for tradition, I would lick an ice cube. I'm the guy who might one of my greatest desires in life is to cook a woolly mammoth as it gets pitched out of the permafrost in Siberia because of global warming. All time life goals, people. If you know anyone in Siberia who has access to any sort of woolly mammoth that's just starting to come out of the ice, so it's still frozen? You know, it's a mere 12,000 years old.
+
+[18:17] Oh my that would be sweet. Wouldn't you eat that, Paul? Yeah, that'd be great. Do you know Paul has been on the Vomit Comet? Are you familiar with the Vomit Comet?
+
+[18:26] So the Vom Parker's apparently familiar. Definitely familiar with the Vomit Comet. But the uh so uh vomit comet is what they use to train astronauts. Do they allow fo and so what they do is is they fly uh parabolic trajectories so that you feel weightless when you're in air. And then I was like, well, maybe we could serve food on the vomit comet as part of a museum of food and drink kind of a thing, but then Peter was like, it's called the vomit comet.
+
+[18:49] You can't serve food on something where half the people are projected to vomit. Paul, did you eat food on the vomit comet? I didn't, but I would have. I certainly would have. I don't think they would allow that stuff on the plane, would they?
+
+[19:00] Would they allow you to bring like uh a capri sun pouch on the uh on the vomit comet? Yeah, definitely. If you're paying. Did you vomit on the vomit comet? Only one person vomited.
+
+[19:10] Out of how many? Out of at least 45 people. Interesting fact for you vomit comet folks out there. Uh you actually go weightless on the up trajectory, which I didn't realize. Hi.
+
+[19:23] What's up? All right, so so we're talking about cakes. So, what's your favorite cake? What do kids like these days? Um do you like you said you like sheet cakes.
+
+[19:32] I understand it's like it's it's the best like icing to cake ratio, and it's the best bake off. In other words, like you're only if you mess up, you're only messing up the edges, and the vast majority of your sheet cake is okay. There's something not as enjoyable about the square block of cake as the sweet, sweet wedge of like good old fashioned American cake. But I still double, I still do a layer uh with the with a sheet cake. So it's it's you still get a good cut in.
+
+[20:01] So it's not like it's not like entomints aluminum foil. Oh no, no. Uh no, I I like to do a again, it's it I don't do that for kids uh so much, but uh I uh she doesn't like the wall there. What are you doing there, miss? Sorry.
+
+[20:21] Um, like what's your favorite flavor there for the for the kids? What do they what kids I want chocolate? You know, I I do serve devil's food to kids and tell the parents that there is espresso powder in there. So he's there? Oh yeah.
+
+[20:33] You ever have kids running around and pooping out of everything? Uh I I drop off a cake and leave. So if that happens. And then they drop it off and leave. So funny story a friend of mine who uh once babysat a small chihuahua.
+
+[20:46] Now, things that chihuahua should not have chocolate and coffee. And this dog got into a couple chocolate covered espresso beans, and apparently it was jumping. I don't know, in a chihuahua. Apparently the dog was jumping into the air and then projectile pooping onto the wall. Wow.
+
+[21:04] And so now like I have this image of this like it got. I don't know, like maybe like armadillo jumping height. You know how armadillos bounce? Like in my mind, this this chihuahua is like boing, boing, ps boing, ps like all over the wall. That's my image.
+
+[21:14] It sounds amazing. I know, but it's not really safe to do to a dog. A very small amount of chocolate can throw a dog for you know a pretty bad look. Alright. Oh yeah.
+
+[21:26] All right. What about carrot cake? That was my wedding cake. I love carrot cake. That's my favorite.
+
+[21:30] Except I don't like it with raisins in it. Like in general? I don't like raisins in cake, yeah. At all? No.
+
+[21:37] Do you enjoy raisin cinnamon bread? Yeah. But yeah, for some reason, I don't know. Because the crumb is is much fluffier and finer on a carrot cake, and then you've got this raisin that just it bites too much with meat. Do you like panettone?
+
+[21:53] Toasted, like a slice, not like just straight cut from the cake. Because of the fruit? I think so. Do you like dense things like fruit cake? You know, I honestly don't know that I've had a legit fruit cake.
+
+[22:07] I really don't know that I have. Paul, fruit cake? It's good. Nastasia? I don't think I've had a real one.
+
+[22:13] Why? Because you're just opposed to the idea of it. It's a gummy, dense block of sugar. You buy it this year and eat it next year. Mail order.
+
+[22:23] Oh the the cake of record is Claxton's. Yeah. But I don't know whether or not uh anyway, okay. Let's get let's answer some questions. You ever made uh uh buckwheat uh galettes?
+
+[22:34] No. You think of crepes, they're like crates, but they're made of buckwheat. Yeah, so anyway, I have a question. Should we get to some questions? Sure.
+
+[22:40] Paul, do you have any cooks illustrated stuff? You ever worked on crepes? Never worked on crepes. I make buckwheat pancakes. Yeah, but you cheat, you add regular flour to it, right?
+
+[22:47] Or you go straight. Yeah, okay. Okay, well, that's the whole point of this freaking question. So, like the thing is, is okay. First of all, uh, I would have this is from who's this from?
+
+[22:56] This is from Caleb. I would have tested these recipes myself, except for I have no gas in my building. These idiots, I don't know, they're maybe they're good people, maybe they're good people and idiots. You know what I mean? You could be you could be an idiot and be a good person.
+
+[23:07] You know what I mean? They broke through the gas line while they were working on our building, and now the whole building is out of gas, and they're like, I was like, okay, so like you're gonna fix it like tomorrow, and they're like, Well, uh, well, uh the permitting's gonna take like six weeks. The permitting's gonna take six weeks. Now, people, I don't know if you know this. We live in New York City here.
+
+[23:29] We pay a buttload of taxes to live in this freaking city. If an entire building with like 500 people in it, like is not on like has no gas, maybe you could expedite the freaking permit because you know it's just some person sitting in a room somewhere going, yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like, why can't they just like accelerate that for all the people that are there? You know what I mean?
+
+[23:55] It's not like I'm trying to get a gas permit for a building that is like being built in three months, and you're like, if you needed a permit now, why didn't you ask for it six weeks ago? You know, this like the thing just broke, like emergency permit. And there are people living there. Yeah, and you know what? Like, sure, like, you know, like I can go like go out, or I in fact I have a really nice induction burner, so I can cook without it, you know what I mean?
+
+[24:19] But there's plenty of people who can't afford to necessarily eat out every night who like rely on their gas. Because it's not like we have an uh, you know, a lot of electricity in our apartments, because New York City apartments, one of the reasons we don't uh often have like electric ovens or this kind of stuff, it's just because we don't have a big enough electric service into our units to be able to do it. But what if six weeks, anyways. So Caleb, I couldn't actually test this, but also, you know, I used to have a real crepe maker, crampus, a real crampose crepe maker gas. What?
+
+[24:49] It's that big thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have it hooked up right now. I I had it hooked up at the old place. I'm gonna get hooked up again.
+
+[24:54] Dax misses it. I love it more than almost any other piece of hot side equipment because it just screams like a mother. It's so much better than any electric crate maker I've ever used or any wussy. Everyone's like, I make crepe cakes on my stove with my crepe pan. I'm like, no, you don't.
+
+[25:12] You know what I mean? I'm like, like a real, like, I mean, you do, I'm not saying your crepes are bad. But if you like the actual like giant French style street crepe. Do you have that big wooden dowel thing too? Replet, yes.
+
+[25:23] I love the replet. So the replet looks like a squeegee, like like a like a s like like if you're driving down the Bruckner and there's traffic and someone comes with a squeegee to it's like that, but made of wood. Wait, where did you get this crepe maker? I went to France. I was on the street, and I had a crepe, and I was like, oh, this is the piece of equipment you need to do this.
+
+[25:44] This stuff we have in the United States is garbage. And and uh at you know, at that time, this is you know, like like two decades ago or something, you couldn't really get uh, you know, you could maybe you could get them here, but they were really, really expensive. But like cramp the actual brand crampus wasn't really brought in here yet. And so I was like, um I'm just gonna buy one, put it in my backpack, and it's heavy, because it's like heavy, heavy. And I just trudged around Europe with this giant crepe maker, and you know what?
+
+[26:14] Worth it. Totally worth it. Amazing piece of equipment. It has so many spider arms of gas underneath, it's so even, and when you flip the cast iron piece uh over the the top, it has like a a bunch of fins to spread out the gas flame so that it's really even and it can scream, scream, scream, screen, scream. So here's the thing about crepes.
+
+[26:32] The thing about crepes when you're making regular crepes, we're about to go into this question in a minute, is recovery time, right? So people are using a a little stove, and then you're putting a crepe on, you're like, well, the crepe's not that big, so it what kind of it's can't be that big of a deal to cook it. But you're covering the entire surface of your cooking area with wet. And when you cook the cover the entire surface of your cooking area with wet, and you need it to be like a relatively even shade of brown from the middle to the outside, and you're using a regular stove, you're hosed. You're you're ruined unless you have like a giant thing.
+
+[27:02] So the answer is is that these people who are making their awesome crepes at home have to be making it into relatively small pans. Like that's the answer. You know what I'm saying? Or if you but you know, if you maybe if you had like an accuSteam would be the ultimate thing to make crepes on, but no one make accusteam does not make a crepe maker, but I guess you could make it in their regular square griddle. Because act you know, accuSteam stars, that's the company that what they do is is they literally have a a double walled stainless uh like uh sandwich when they heat the steam up on the inside to such a high pressure that it actually can cook pancakes.
+
+[27:33] But the cool thing is they have it at such a high pressure that it can cook pancakes up at like you know 350, 360. It's amazing. You ever use one of those, Lauren? They're amazing. I I like I think I had we had one in culinary school that yeah, I think they did it.
+
+[27:47] Culinary school, like companies are like they're they're like crack dealers. They give you your first hit free in culinary school, and then you're like, oh, that was awesome when I was using that, and then you want to buy one in your in your restaurant, but apparently it did not work. But anyway, I can make it. They should send you one, Dave. Uh that would be nice.
+
+[28:03] Every time I'm on the air with you, you name check accuSteam. Really? Yeah. Really? Maybe it's just something about you, Paul, makes me think of AccuSteam.
+
+[28:10] They have a don't they have a deep fryer too? They maybe they make a deep fryer. I don't know. Like I'm buying a. What?
+
+[28:19] Really? Yeah. That would be sick. But like, I'm like, uh, no, but like right now, like, we're probably gonna get a CVAP for the new place for a hot wheel. Why are you gonna buy our old 3D printer?
+
+[28:28] That giant one. Oh, Nastasia now is bringing up old, bad memories. I thought I did buy it. You just have to deliver it. Okay.
+
+[28:36] Anyway, so back to what are we talking about? Cakes? Buckwheat creep crepes. Buckwheat crepes. So anyway, so the deal with a crepe is is a standard crepe batter is like relatively fluid, like one to one or similar, what with eggs and uh you know, milk.
+
+[28:51] Milk flour, like similar to one to one. Eggs, uh, whatever, I salt, and then I add a little sugar because I'm monkey nut or whatever. Everyone has to add sugar. Yeah, whatever. I add a little bit, and I'm sure I'm a bad human, but whatever.
+
+[29:02] I add vanilla flavor too. Silent kill. Yeah. I add vanilla flavor and occasionally like a hit of liqueur and or and or sherry because you know why? Because it's my freaking house and I can do what I want.
+
+[29:13] Do you do the Grand Marnier kind of thing? Uh I've never no, it's just so much money. You know what I mean? To actually flame it out. Anyway, anyway, so like uh and yeah, you know what, like I I hate to say this because like you never know where your bread's gonna be buttered next.
+
+[29:27] Speaking of bread buttered, I was at Kansas City, and we could talk about like their Texas toast machine and the auto buttering. They have you seen these machines, these toasters, and they use the top of the toaster. They have a roll in it that goes through the butter, and it's just basically like a steamroller of butter. And it's just like it's just like I'm looking at it, and like my mind is going back to the 1970s. They had this advertisement for cheese where they're like, hanker for a hunker, a slab of a slice of chunker, hanker for a hunk of cheese, and they say, Look, a wagon wheel, because they want you to eat cheese in the form of a wagon wheel because they think kids will like it.
+
+[29:59] And so I'm sitting here in Kansas City, and this is a complete non-sequite. My brain's just going wagon wheel, butter, wagon wheel, but I'm looking at it, I'm watching the toast go in toast by toast by toast by toast by toast. And I'm pretty sure that there's something in there for me with a Texas toast steamed cheese combo. It's gonna be freaking, that's gonna be the money in the bank right there. That's gonna be the money.
+
+[30:22] Anyways, uh okay, then we'll get to buckwheat crepes after it. Oh, they're gone. All right, so I couldn't wait to go. When you when you get them, when you get them back, uh just let me know and we'll do it. But but back to crepes.
+
+[30:33] So the trick with crepes is you make that batter, you you, you know, you you beat it up, and then you let it you let it sit for a long time, you strain out the lumps, you get rid of the bubbles. Bubbles are your enemy because they pop and mess up your your they they mess up your rapletting action. And uh if you have any uh unhydrated particles of flour at all, they just tear through your crate when you're working, right? The other thing about crepes is that the you're better off making the batter, letting it hydrate, and then thicker than you need, letting it hydrate a hundred percent for as long as you want, and then thinning it to exactly the right consistency beforehand so that it's right. So uh so anyway, so that's a regular crepe.
+
+[31:17] But regular crepes are relatively easy to work with if you follow those simple instructions. You you know, you take your ladle, you go brup, you put it onto your crepe maker, and you just take your raplette and you drop it down and you gently wipe it in a circular motion. The crepe gets large, it gets beautiful, you see it get brown, you flip it over, maybe you paste it with butter or spray it with Pam or whatever in the hell you do. I don't know what you do. It's your house.
+
+[31:41] You flip it over, you take it off, and then you know the thing is, what do you think about reheating the crates? What do you think about people like making the stack and then reheating it as opposed to just making them? They're better when they're just made. They oh absolutely. Yeah.
+
+[31:53] Um I mean, I'm not gonna lie and say that that's never happened, you know, and and I'll eat them and everything like that. But yeah, and honestly, I I kind of think you only really notice if you did it side to side, like side by side. Like if you had them fresh earlier that morning and then later on that day you reheat them. Yeah, you're like, okay, it's not as good. But if they didn't, if you know Right.
+
+[32:12] Okay, how about this one? Best crepe, best dosa. Where do I find them? No, no. No, like which would you eat right now if I hand it to you?
+
+[32:24] Um right now, crepe, I would say, because I haven't had a crepe in probably two years. Paul? I would eat ten doses really while you were still trying to hand me the crepe. Yeah. And Nastasi's like, I don't like either crab on you.
+
+[32:39] Uh so am I right or no? No, I would eat the crepe. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so let's get to the actual question after. You know what that's the secret, I think, is like is first of all, like the interesting thing about doses is doses, and the reason I bring them up is that unlike a standard crepe, they are a gluten-free recipe, and they rely on the natural hydrocolloids in the doll to create their texture, and use a mixture of doll, like, so you have like uh an you know, an Urad doll and like the rice, and then like, but like this one place out in Queens, they're like, our secret is we add a little bit of chano, chickpea, to it, and that's how they get their texture.
+
+[33:20] And I have to say their stuff's pretty on point. But what's interesting about the and again, the reason I bring Dosa up is because Dosa does have that crispy texture, and it is a gluten-free kind of a situation. And so like you look at Dosa technology. But anyway, so let's see what let's see what problems Caleb is having with uh with Gallette's aka buckwheat crepes. Part of my perfect Sunday morning involves a big batch of crepes with various accompaniments, both sweet butter, lemon sugar, and savory egg and gruyere.
+
+[33:44] Ooh, I like myself some gruyere. Even Nastasia likes herself some gruyere. Yeah, hell yeah. Do you know what I like? I like cheesesteak with gruyere.
+
+[33:51] Oh yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's good. Fancy. It's not I mean, it is fancy in the sense that it costs money.
+
+[33:57] What? You have a cheese fridge. I have a w I have a wine fridge that was given to me, and I put cheese into it when I have cheese. You know what else is good on cheesesteak though? Queso.
+
+[34:06] You like queso? Love a queso. Is there anyone that doesn't like queso? Alex Stupak. No, just kidding.
+
+[34:12] He doesn't like queso. No, he actually no, he actually uh at Cosino. At Cosina, he redid his, he he redid a version of a Tex Mex queso, but of course he schmancied it up. I believe that, but I'm saying if he goes to somebody's house and they have Rotel and Velveeta and chips, does he dip into that's why? But if anyone Instagrammed him doing that, he'd be like smash your phone.
+
+[34:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's what I love. Don't do that to Stu Pac. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:45] Don't don't you know what? Like, imagine if Nastasia hung out with him every day that he would be dead because you would boil his blood on a constant basis. Because there's nothing Nastasia loves more than finding someone who she can make like their blood boil and then like set on boil, jet boil, jet boil, jet boil, jet oil. You know what I mean? She's like uh like you know what?
+
+[35:05] It's like it's like Nastasia likes to play people like Joust. You remember that video game Joust? I love Duft. Yeah, it's it's a you're it's it's nights on ostriches and they flap their wings, and you have to keep it at just the right level because if you let go, they crash and you can't get them back up again. But if you go too high, they fly up, and Nastasia is the master joust player with people's anger.
+
+[35:23] So she keeps people like right at the layer and then where they're flapping at that like one level of anger. Anyways. Uh I have long mastered basic crepes. We're back to the question. Uh, and produce pleasing, delicate lacy key crepes based on a batter of AP flour, eggs, and milk.
+
+[35:40] Occasionally I'll go 50-50 with rye, whole wheat, or buckwheat. Whole wheat actually is a pain in the butt with crepes unless you have very finely milled. That's gonna tear your crepe. Yeah, you know what I really like for whole wheat, soft flour is like um is like uh chipati flour because it's like it is, I believe, whole or gram, but like it's it's very fine, like floury. It doesn't have those like brand particles that are gonna mess your stuff up.
+
+[36:04] How are you doing there? Boring. Uh okay. And yet the traditional buckwheat galette eludes me. This savory crepe made from uh in uh made in from Brittany, made only with buckwheat, flour, and chwater.
+
+[36:17] Most articles on them seem to suggest they are impossible to make at home without adding eggs on their milk. But uh to me, this creates a different product. When I mix bu whatever, when I mix buckwheat flour and water and let it sit overnight and try to make crepes the next day, they don't spread well, they stick, and they come out too thick despite thinning the batter. Uh and then, you know, the um he comes out with uh says look at David Liebowitz's um uh article, uh Pimp My Crapes. I'm not sure, like I don't think it's acceptable anymore to say you're pimping.
+
+[36:44] Like if you really think about what pimping is, it's not cool. Like you don't want to pimp your, you know, turn your pimp in a you want to turn your crepe into a sex slave? Back to the question. Okay. Um what's going on here?
+
+[36:57] Some suggest that the creperies have higher heat than home stoves. That is true. Yeah. That's just straight up true. Uh but I'm not buying it.
+
+[37:04] You should buy it. Their stuff is sick. Those crampooses are sick. Doesn't mean you can't make it at home. Uh yes, buckwheat has little or no gluten.
+
+[37:12] No, I think. Uh, but you know what? Someone's like, it's not a grain. I read this on the internet. It's not a grain.
+
+[37:18] It's a seed. What do you think freaking grains are? If you plant one of those things, it grows. And you know what that makes it? A seed.
+
+[37:25] Anyway. Um. Are there any uh tricks, suggestions, or thoughts as to what's going on and what make uh what magic the creperies have that I am missing? Many thanks. Look forward to seeing your lecture in Cambridge next week.
+
+[37:37] That's too late. That was last week. And then P.S. Nastasia, I also dislike cumin. Do you are you a cumin or a cumin sayer, people?
+
+[37:45] I'm a cumin sayer. I'm cumin. We're all cumin here. Yeah. But you say aunt.
+
+[37:51] You say aunt. Really? That's true. I say my aunt Sandy. Uh-huh.
+
+[37:55] We were born in Stanford. Auntie Jen. If it's auntie, it's not auntie. No, I say auntie. I would never say auntie.
+
+[38:02] I'd say auntie. I do say auntie matter. That's that would be that would be my like my drag science teacher name. Auntie Matter. Um, but the okay.
+
+[38:14] So uh I dislike cumin and thought I was the only one. To me, it smells like B.O. Not that that stops my wife from using it all the time. Well, you can't have chili without cumin. You can't.
+
+[38:25] It's not chili. What is it, Nastasi without cumin? Soup. Tomato soup. Uh, you know, tomato beef stoop soup.
+
+[38:32] Do you like pork chili? I think so. Yeah? I like pork chili. Like, not like, you know, a traditional like thing, but flavor of chili, meat of pork.
+
+[38:43] It's good, right? I agree. Yes. Very good. Okay.
+
+[38:44] So uh my tips and tricks. One, I went I went on the internets and I looked up to see some actual, how do you pronounce Brittany Breton? How do you pronounce those guys? Anyway, like the Brittany people, right? Breton.
+
+[38:58] Uh making uh their their galettes, and uh they do not use the same raplette technique as a standard AP flour crepe maker. So I would look at what they do. So when you're like I told you, when you're making a standard crepe, you're like putting you're ladling it down and then you're like you're wiping it through. These folks, they put it on pretty hard. It spreads out like pretty good from the get-go, and then they do like a double push to push it out into a wider thing, and then they just do a touch-up with the replet to get it around.
+
+[39:28] So they're not using the standard wiped around technique that you would use. They're using a different push technique. One. Two, I really think the key here is long, long hydration. I really think the key is gonna be letting the batter making it thicker than you want, resting it, not a hundred percent thick, but thicker than you want, letting it rest overnight.
+
+[39:48] And there's two things that are going on here. I don't know the and this is why another reason I brought up doses earlier. I don't know the actual chemistry of what's going on here, but I know that other gluten-free things like millets, if you ferment or even lightly ferment millet for let's say 12 hours before you use it, you have a much better rheology texture in your batters and doughs that are made with the millet because as they ferment, they make other stuff that actually helps the batter, right? And so my guess is is that if the standard full-on like you know, Breton galette is with a batter that is at least overnight or possibly longer old, that it probably don't work unless you do that. They also uh w you know, the Libowitz thing said that they use organic flour.
+
+[40:32] This might mean French for bad flour, i.e. damaged flour. And so maybe the damaged flour is helping out. I don't know. Because uh often recipes, if you have damaged starch granules act very differently, right, Lauren?
+
+[40:44] Right? Absolutely. Yeah, so like the flour they're using might be different than the flour you're using. So I would look to buy like a similar kind of flour to the one they're using. I would look to rest it overnight, because uh for two reasons, like I said, there's probably some fermentation going on, which will change the rheology, and it they will also finish the hydration and like hydration and letting it like like hydrate properly, I think is a key in many recipes that don't involve gluten.
+
+[41:14] It just is like doses like take forever because you have to soak them, then grind them, then ferment them to get them to work right. Um so I would say those are the two keys, and I would look at videos on the internet for people's raplette technique to see whether you get it right. Absolutely, yeah. And they're everywhere right now. I mean, honestly, you go on Instagram and you can see a ton of them.
+
+[41:31] Really? Yeah. Yeah. I love I yeah, I love me. Like I've learned so much.
+
+[41:35] You know what I haven't learned from YouTube yet? The accurate uh uh Turkish coffee technique. I'm just not good at it. No. But you know a lot about what's his name?
+
+[41:44] Dax's favorite guy. Oh my god, Dax watches these terrible YouTube people. And then he gets mad, he's like, they're my idol. I'm like, so there's this guy, he's like the most famous, like one of the top paid YouTube people on earth. Paid for what?
+
+[41:58] For being being up, yeah, being on YouTube. His name is uh Luke Paul Luke Paul and his brother, Luke Paul? One of these Paul brothers. Anyways. RuPaul.
+
+[42:07] Not I wish it was RuPaul. If it was RuPaul, that'd be awesome. Yeah, but like, no, this is just a guy who is like a 21-year-old like like guy who breaks plates and has millions of followers. Who like walk into a hotel and break a plate on internet. Anyway, so you want to take a quick break on your tongue?
+
+[42:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the thing. So, like, so Dax's dirtbag buddy, one of his friends, has a shirt from this guy, and it says Maverick. I'm like, you can't glom on to someone's internet personality and be a maverick. They don't fit.
+
+[42:37] It doesn't work. I'm wearing a t-shirt that just says what I am. Low quality individual. That's just true. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:45] Maverick. Alright, we'll take a break. We're right back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mills products stand the test of time. Even if we're talking about the beginning of time.
+
+[43:04] Bob's has a wide range of paleo-friendly products. But what is paleo anyway? So, yeah, I've been doing the paleo diet for a couple months now, and I'm feeling great. I think I'm gonna stick with it. I keep hearing about this paleo diet.
+
+[43:24] Doesn't it just mean you like eat a lot of steaks or something? I love brunch too much to stick to one specific diet. I get that. But it's mostly about cutting out processed foods and simple carbohydrates. According to the Paleo diet, our bodies weren't genetically designed to digest that stuff.
+
+[43:42] Well, I don't know about the whole genetic argument. Besides, I don't know why anyone would cut out bread who wasn't allergic to it. I love bread. You're just mad because you wouldn't be able to give it up. I dare you to try paleo with me for the next week.
+
+[43:58] I know you love bread and sweets made with traditional flowers, but Bob's red mill makes a paleo baking flour. So you can make cookies, muffins, even pizza crust while sticking to the caveman diet. Cookies and pizza. Okay. That changes things.
+
+[44:13] I'm in. No matter what diet you follow, Bob's red mill has you covered. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. Wait, what? Why is that on our show?
+
+[44:24] Wait, what was it? Pale what? The reason I've been avoiding pizza is because it's processed. Yeah. You know what was really a net loss for humanity?
+
+[44:38] Agriculture. I know. You know what I mean? Because you know what? You know what?
+
+[44:42] There is there's so many paths that would have led to the iPhone that don't go through agriculture first. That's true. You know what I mean? It's like, you know what? It's like I'm pretty sure, yeah, that we would still have music and culture if we were gathering berries.
+
+[44:59] Oh, wait. We would only be able to live in like the five places on earth that have food all the time. You know what I mean? No, we'd be nomadic. And our apps would help us find the food.
+
+[45:14] Anyone take a call? Caller, you're on the air. Hey there. Uh what's up, Nastasia, David, Dave, uh crying baby, and uh I believe I heard Paul in the background there. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[45:28] This is Paul. And Lauren. Uh I'm this is Marcel calling from the a uh bed of Kohlrabi in the Hudson Valley. Oh, nice. Yeah, you like so instead of using hemlock boughs to make your camping beds, you're just like lying in Kohl Rabi?
+
+[45:42] That'd be amazing. Exactly. Awesome. All right. So my question is uh I've been there's a lot of uh really nice wild grapes that grow up here.
+
+[45:51] Uh and I've been making wild uh grape syrup. And uh I like when I make it I do it at a lower temperature, like I I do it in sous vide at like one thirty or one twenty sometimes. Um because I feel like when I cook it it gets this sort of like the flavor almost of when you think of fruit on a pie, um that really cooked sort of berry flavor. Uh huh. Um and I want to make some kind of jelly out of it because I really uh like I think it would taste good as a jelly, but I don't want it to have that classic sort of cooked flavor.
+
+[46:26] Um and all the recipes I find involve like boiling it with the pectin um and other steps like that. So I'm basically wondering for advice on uh something that's sort of like a jelly but is made without boiling it uh at any point. All right. So I mean the thing is at those low temperatures, you're just really pasteurizing it, right? I mean you're just looking to pasteurize it.
+
+[46:47] They at those temperatures they won't even pop, right? Well, so basically I'm putting all of the grapes in a bag with sugar, and then I sous vide and I massage it every once in a while to get m as much of the juice out as I can. Uh so yeah, I'm not really cooking it. Got it. Here's what I would do.
+
+[47:05] So I'll I'll tell you a uh a technique that I did never for service because it's a huge pain in the butt, and but maybe it'll give you an idea uh based on it. So I once took uh strawberry, clarified it, um, removed like looks like enough water that I was up uh at like 70, 70 something percent uh solids in the liquid, it was like, or even a little bit higher, so it was like like a syrup, it would have set, and then I like heated a bunch of sugar until it was you know just starting to blonde out, right? So it was like would have been candy, and then I mix the two things together to make like a taffy, and that because I never cooked a strawberry because it was low temperature, even though I was mixing it into a high temperature thing, right? It still retained because it cooled off relatively quick quickly. So, what I'm about to recommend to you is this.
+
+[47:57] I would make a like sugar pectin, some grape or grape juice with some sugar, reduce it, add a boat ton of pectin because you're gonna need it, right? Then like do the boil out, then fold in your warm, uh I wouldn't go cold because you're gonna get pre-gel and all this other stuff, but I'd then I'd fold in your warm uh grapes so that you maintain now that is not gonna last because you haven't cooked those grapes. So if you've pasteurize them, you're probably not gonna get sick, but it's going to weep like a mother over time. And I know this because my classic strategy for blueberry pie, because blueberry pie, Lauren, right around, you gotta eat it right away anyway. Absolutely.
+
+[48:40] So I cheat, I cheat on my pies, I blind bake the crust. Why? Because I suck, and then I make a blueberry basically jelly fundamentally, I pour it hot into my blind baked crust, and then I throw a bunch of fresh blueberries into it, they sink down, and it's good for exactly one day. And then the fresh blueberries turn to garbage. What do you think?
+
+[48:59] What do you think about any any suggestions, uh Paul or Lauren? What's going on here? With the pie? No, no, no. With the grapes, I'm just saying the things that I've done that's similar.
+
+[49:09] Like like what make that jam with don't cook the grapes, but cook the pectin and keep it in the freezer so it doesn't weep. Freezer? But you can't eat frozen jelly. Yeah, you can. Really?
+
+[49:14] Yeah, it's gelatinous. Do you know you're familiar with Sam Mason's awesome uh frozen like uh liquid nitrogen jelly technique in ice cream? No. He freezes the jelly in liquid nitrogen until it shatters like glass, then puts it into the ice cream and then lets it melt out in these awesome blobs. It's that's why, I mean, like, you gotta love Sam, right?
+
+[49:37] Oh, totally. Sam, good man, smart man. He's in supermarkets now. Man is man. Him personally or his products.
+
+[49:44] I saw him in the supermarket. Imagine that. I'm going to check out. Yeah. I'm like, Sam, what's up, man?
+
+[49:53] You imagine like the kind of coolest checkout guy ever. Like this like tall pastry chef. You know, like he's like a younger kind of like an alive, like Chris Cornell. He's got that Chris Cornell vibe, doesn't he? A little bit?
+
+[50:04] Some sort of he's got a rock and roll vibe. He has a rock and roll vibe. All right. Anyway, is this making any sense, grapes? Yeah, that makes sense.
+
+[50:10] Uh my only question would be if there's something else you could think of that I could add that would somehow prevent the weeping, or there's no way to do it. No, but you're not cooking it. Oh, you're smashing them though. Yeah, you could stabilize it with uh what hydrocolide would I use? Uh but I'm I'm a kind of like any hydrocoloid you stabilize.
+
+[50:30] The good thing about pectin, pectin's very good with flavor release. Very, very good. That's why those like uh, you know, those those pectin-based candies are pretty good, is that they have a very high flavor release, or like uh what do you call those pet pate fruits? Which I love those suckers. Well, well that's actually at first when when he was asking the question, I was in my mind saying, well, he said jelly, but is he talking about like jellies like pet de fui?
+
+[50:53] But it clearly was. Yeah, but that would be really hard to do. Yeah. Well, and also I was questioning are the grapes green or red or what do you got? These are like they're wild upstate grapes, so they're basically like tiny concord grapes kind of.
+
+[51:05] Oh, okay, good. Because I was gonna say one of the biggest issues with not cooking the grapes too would also be that they would oxidize and look brown and gross. Right, but he's taking them to like yeah, he's pasteurizing them, he's killing the yeast on them at this temperature. By the way, have you read The Grapes of New York uh edited by UP Hedrick? No, I think because I'm pretty obsessed with them.
+
+[51:24] So yeah, so you need to go on the internet right now, Internet Archive, and look up the Grapes of New York, part of the Fruits of New York series, edited with the exception of Apples of New York, which was edited by S.A. Beach, edited by UP Hedrick, and it is available on the internets, and the Grapes of New York, I believe has wild type varieties and also all the weird obscure uh ones with plates. I can't remember the year of Grapes of New York, but uh my guess is it's somewhere like 19 It's either like like 1920 or 1919 or something like that, but go check it out. UP Hedrick. And believe it or not, he's from the upper peninsula of uh of uh Michigan.
+
+[52:05] 1908, the internet's 1908. Well, thank God for the internet. There you go. The last one, the last series they did was in the 20s, and it was the vegetables in New York, but they never finished it. And my favorite title of all of the series is The Cucurbits of New York.
+
+[52:21] Because it's like melons, cucumbers, cucumits. And so like uh like the ha like there's a couple like um are you familiar with uh uh the group culture from Jamaica, the reggae group? Uh oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So in my head, like I have all whenever I hear that word, I'm like, cucabit, cucker bit, cucabit.
+
+[52:42] Taking all that. I don't know why. For some reason it's in my head anyway. So I have reggae cuckoo bit going through my head right now. Anyway, tell us what goes on with this and uh let me know.
+
+[52:52] Uh let me let me know how it works out. And uh maybe someone in the uh chat room here has some uh suggestions. We're out of time. Awesome. Thank you guys.
+
+[53:00] Have a good one. All right, cool. Well, we have no time. Yeah, through one question. Uh no, I gotta say bye.
+
+[53:05] What say? We got we gotta say goodbye. Oh, all right. Listen, uh, on the way out, uh spinzalls have started showing up. Uh we hope you like them.
+
+[53:14] We've shipped uh apparently all of them have left Hong Kong, but we don't have individual tracking numbers for uh non-US and for about I think 40 of you guys that are in the US. Uh but like Southern California, SoCal, where you guys are from, they've already received uh most of the people in SoCal have received their stuff. Um let us know how it works. Uh email Matthew at Bookerandax.com if you have any questions or comments. Uh we want to hear from you.
+
+[53:43] We want to help you uh use them better. And thanks for coming, Lauren. Thanks, Paul. Absolutely. Thanks, guys.
+
+[53:49] Now they're happy. What are you playing there? Anyway, uh cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[54:11] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[54:39] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] As Easter approaches, we're reminded of the incredible love Christ showed through his sacrifice. It's a season to slow down, reflect, and draw nearer to the Savior who gave everything for us. In Touch Ministries is here to help you deepen your faith with biblical teaching from Dr. Charles Stanley. Messages that encourage, strengthen, and point you toward the hope found in the resurrection.
+
+[0:24] Visit intouch.org today and experience the life-changing promise of Easter. This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollux, maker of America's number one organic pet food, organics. Look for their newest line, Pristine. The only complete line of pet food made with responsibly sourced ingredients. Learn more at Heritage Radio Network.org slash pets.
+
+[1:06] Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the hammer lopus. How you doing, Nastasia? Good. Got Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:12] Yo. Special guest, Don, the evil cocktail overlord Lee. How you doing? Doing well. I'm gonna stop fighting for you guys.
+
+[1:20] Yeah, yeah. Now, uh, well, well, you know, I mean, come on, let's face it. Like, you picked an outfit to reconstruct from Star Wars stuff, and it was a stormtrooper outfit. Yeah, bad guys doing good. 501.
+
+[1:32] I mean, bad guys doing good. What does that mean? Uh, the 501st, uh, the Imperial Legion, uh, Vader's Fist. We do uh charity work for children's hospitals, raise money for children's hospitals, visits to kids. It's bad guys doing good.
+
+[1:42] But there was no actual bad guy doing good in the movies. This is not canon, in other words. Well, you know, Han Solo was kind of uh, you know, a true neutral, uh, chaotic good. Yes, we all know he shot first. We all know he shot first.
+
+[1:55] That's true. I don't think we can use that. Uh, I think if it's only if it's less than a certain amount, or if you're um if it's clearly for other intent, you could do it. The party noise you hear in the background is in fact a party. We have nothing to do with it, and we can't uh neutralize it out because uh we never spent the money on thick enough glass.
+
+[2:12] Am I right there, Dave? That's right. Yeah, yeah. Well, cooking issues uh listeners, feel free to donate at heritage radio network.org slash donate. And do they get to say we want thicker glass?
+
+[2:21] Yeah, you can put it uh we'll we'll inscribe your name into it. Uh all right, so uh Dave, anything good happened this week? Anything good, anything bad? Food related, not drawing a blank. Well, all right.
+
+[2:37] Stuff. I saw you last night. That was not food related. Yeah. Anyway, calling your questions to 7184978.
+
+[2:44] 7184972128, that's 7184972128. Let's start with a uh spins all update. So uh if you are somehow listening to this podcast by accident, or uh, you know, I don't know, you thought you were tuning in to Pod Save America or This American Life or something like that, and you got us instead. Uh or you know, if this is your first time, the spinzall is the centrifuge that Nastasi and I are making and trying to um sell to people so that they can use all the cool centrifuge tricks uh, you know, at their restaurant, their bar, in their home, should they so choose. So, uh update.
+
+[3:18] Uh Nastasia and I wish that we could fly like an eagle uh over the sea to Hong Kong and completely choke the life out of the people who are supposed to be shipping you your units. The vast majority of you in the United States have received your uh units and uh with and we're sorry, Matt and Mystic. Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah, crazy hits.
+
+[3:44] Oh, yeah. Yeah, Nastasia Lopez, by the way, is like Steve Miller, who's that? What did he do? What did he do? He's never had any hits.
+
+[3:51] My dad claims to have smoked pot with him. Yeah. I hear he's an okay guy. Sounds like it. Like, for instance, he didn't rip off the uh big old Jed Airliner guy, you know, because he didn't write that song.
+
+[4:01] And so he ended up paying the writer of that song royalties, and apparently is the only thing that kept that that guy, you know, like basically sustained that guy, because he wasn't famous as Steve Miller was. Anywho. He didn't pull a Paul Simon on the guy? Well, what did Paul Simon do? We're talking about the senator or the musician?
+
+[4:15] The musician. What did the musician do? Isn't he notorious for ripping off artists, other artists? I don't know. Is that what Garfunkel says?
+
+[4:21] Isn't that like what Graceland was, basically? A big ripoff. Well, culturally a ripoff or actually ripping off songs. Like not paying the musicians who contributed to that. But who?
+
+[4:30] Like Lady Smith Black Mombazo? I I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't know anything about the history of that. David Miller.
+
+[4:37] Yeah, I'll get right on that. Yeah. Uh speaking of which, somebody asked uh about the chat room, so why don't you tell them how to find the chat room? Uh if you go to Heritage Radio Network.org and listen live. Uh I think actually also though, you need to sign up for a Mixler account that's M-I-X-L-R.
+
+[4:52] That's what we use to stream. What the hell is that? Is that one of those Fred Flintstone characters? Is that that little guy that flew above your head in Fred Flintstone? No.
+
+[4:59] Um, the well, who's that guy? You know what I'm talking about? The green dude? It's the great Gazoo or something. It's the alien.
+
+[5:06] Yeah. Mixy Plizick or something like this. Anyways, so uh everyone in the United States has a valid tracking number except our good friend radio show listener Matt from Mystic. And I don't know why, uh, Matt, we're working on it, and I literally asked for the guy's number. In your unit is sitting in Carson City, California.
+
+[5:27] I got from FedEx the name of the company that is theoretically the shipper, but here's what they did. They didn't give their name as an actual name that's searchable on Google. I searched every variant of their company name in Carson City on Google. I called a few companies that aren't the correct company to see whether they were the correct company in disguise as that company to see if I could find the person that has your unit. And I was unsuccessful.
+
+[5:50] Is that Carson City, Nevada? Carson City, California. It's a suburb of or Carson, California. It's a suburb of LA. Yes.
+
+[5:58] Anyway, Carson. Yeah, whatever. So then uh, okay, so that's that's the U.S. So, Matt, if we can't find that thing, we'll ship you one as soon as we get stock, which should be fairly soon. I apologize.
+
+[6:10] Uh we have the block of tracking numbers from these idiots in so everyone in the rest of the world, your units are in your respective countries, and now we're beating on their their heads via email, unfortunately not in person, to get them into the hands of the final delivery people. So I have tracking numbers which we'll send out, but they haven't picked up uh yet but for um uh Canada, for uh EU. I have some from Australia, but not and we're trying to figure out why we don't have all of the ones from Australia and the rest of Asia. So we're working hard, people. We're sorry for the delays.
+
+[6:46] Uh we spent like, you know, we thought we were like paying for a premium service to get you your units, and we're uh as Wiz Wesley Willis would say, I'm unhappy with it, and it pissed me off. That's what he would say for those of you who are Wesley Willis fans. Dave, you a Wesley Willis fan? Uh listened to him in college. Uh yeah, he's he's straight to the point.
+
+[7:06] Yeah, yeah. Uh what was it? I can't read that far. What's that guy's name? Great Gazoo.
+
+[7:11] Great Gazoo. Don with the knowledge. Alright, so uh also on Spin's all before we get into other stuff. Uh uh, if you have a spinzall, if you've received a spinzall and it is vibrating, uh, it's not supposed to vibrate. And so, like, we might have to uh get you a new rotor when we get new rotors in stock, we're not sure.
+
+[7:29] Contact Matthew, spelled like Matthew, at Booker and Dax.com. Don't forget the two Ds, because it's and Dax. Booker and Dax.com. If you use Ampersand, it's gonna go, it's gonna think you put a space or some crap in there, and it's gonna like you know, hose you, you'll be gone. You're not concatenating the words Booker and Dax.
+
+[7:50] It is B-O-O-K-E-R-A-N-D-D-A-X.com. Matthew at Booker and Dax.com, and we can troubleshoot you through it. Roughly speaking, if you download uh Decibel Ultra, which is a free uh decibel meter on your iPhone. Should you use an iPhone? I'm sure there's an Android equivalent if you're an Android-y kind of a person.
+
+[8:06] Uh at one meter's distance, running with a full spinzall with 480 mils of water in it, with the uh cap on it, uh, once it reaches full speed, it should be running in the mid-60s somewhere, uh DBA, and it shouldn't spike above 71 or so as it's coming up to speed uh at one meter. So contact us uh and we'll work on it because if it vibrates too much, it's not going to clarify uh properly. So we want to know if you have one that you know isn't up to your snuff, and we're gonna take care of it because we want you to have a good thing. Now, that said, also, we had I'd say a you know uh mediocre review in uh wired uh wired web. What do you call a magazine?
+
+[8:50] It's not a magazine. Online. Online. Yeah, wired online. Uh which is funny, not wired.
+
+[8:56] Like literally not wired, right? I mean, like who has wired anymore? Like why like why wired magazine, but you're not a wired person. I'm completely wired. You're wireless.
+
+[9:05] I'm wireless when I'm not connected to something, but at home everything is land cables. Really? It's much faster. Yeah, we're wired in here, actually. Yeah.
+
+[9:12] Always wired. All right. All right. So I stand corrected. I stand corrected.
+
+[9:18] I didn't realize I was working with a bunch of freaking moron Luddites, is what I didn't realize. It's faster. Faster on what? Faster for what? What is it that you're doing that is actually faster than you're talking about?
+
+[9:28] Streaming this show. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Look, streaming is streaming is one thing, right? Like, honestly, I appreciate that because you're streaming out.
+
+[9:35] But for the average knucklehead, right, once you can stream net once your Netflix doesn't glitch anymore when you're going over your uh wireless router, what's really the point? Uh it's called uh up and down speeds because if you're playing something on like a video game, you need to have both, you know, high bandwidth going up and down. You freaking guys. Anyways, anyways, people I would think you would be able to appreciate that, Steve. Of all people, I'm married to an architect who doesn't appreciate freaking wires going everywhere, and it's like super expensive to route a boat ton of uh cat six through your house, unless you want it stapled to the outside of your wall.
+
+[10:13] And again, it let that might be okay, you know, if you never invite anyone over or you don't like have friends or relatives who are architects, but in general, like stapling a bunch of cat sticks everywhere isn't like a valid option for me. Okay, all right. So you're cheap, is what you're saying. Um, also, if she's an architect, can't she come up with an elegant solution to this problem? There is none.
+
+[10:35] The elegant solution is to spend an ungodly amount of money to cut holes. Now, if you if you're building a new building, sure, run cat sticks everywhere, everywhere. But let's say you live in an apartment building in New York City. Let's say the walls are made out of gypsum block and concrete, right? Then now you have to route holes through that.
+
+[10:52] Or you could do a BS solution, you can buy this fake molding, and the fake molding pretends, but now you have some sort of like weird fake molding in your otherwise modern apartment that you're hiding your cat six under. And then what? It goes up from the there actually is an interesting solution, Dave. I'm glad you asked. There is a, it's not, I don't think 100% code everywhere, but there's what's called flat cable now that is like like literally sheetrock tapable over.
+
+[11:16] It's like hyper flat and wide. And so you you adhere it to your wall, and then you run uh a thing of uh drywall um joint compound over it, feather it in, and you can paint right over. And apparently it works okay for like TV. I don't know if it'll do data, uh, but it does power. I don't know if it'll do data.
+
+[11:34] I don't know, I don't know. They say that you can do high voltage, but it might be kind of low voltage. Well, enough of this. Wire magazine, wire magazine is like uh, so they gave us a mediocre review, and what really pissed me off about it, I wasn't happy with it, and it pissed me off. And what it was especially was the dude used my own technique against me.
+
+[11:55] First of all, I will say this, people he should not buy one. He is not the customer, right? So he's like, and then like I read the first comment, and then I won't go back because it's crazy, right? The guy's like, the guy, so quick agar clarification, which you know, that's me, right? So like he's like, I found on Dave Arnold's blog where Dave Arnold says you don't need a centrifuge.
+
+[12:14] And okay, if you're gonna do lime juice once a year, twice a year, three times a year, yeah, don't get a centrifuge to do that. But remember, if you're gonna do agar clarification, you minimum you're gonna do 500, 600 milliliters of lime juice. It's a pain in the butt. It's like uh, you know, it's it's a hassle, it's finicky. Nastasia won't do it, she hates doing it.
+
+[12:35] This other guy's like, uh, he's selling a centrifuge just so people won't get their hands dirty on some cheesecloth. First of all, cheesecloth, not cheesecloth. If anyone actually read my post on this subject, linen napkins, muslin, cotton, whatever, use it use your freaking bed sheets, but what you call cheesecloth, I'm sure what these home people are calling cheesecloth is that vile, evil gauze crap, which you cannot use under any circumstance. That aside, using my own technique against me, galling. Then he's like, well, you can also make herb oil by just blend blending herbs and letting it hang over.
+
+[13:06] Sure, if you don't care about yield, if all you're trying to do is impress your family once by getting five drops of uh oil and you don't care that it was hanging overnight and that it's contaminated with water, and that you know it's been sitting in its own filth all night, like turning to garbage, and that you put in 200 mils of oil and only got 50 or 100 mils out, then by all means do it that way. You know what I mean? Then don't buy it. I'm not saying that everyone should buy this unit. I don't know.
+
+[13:31] I was just what do you think about it, Sash? I was a heaven with it, and it pissed me off. Oh, nice. What is that? That's Wesley Willis in the his well-known song, My Keyboard Got Damaged.
+
+[13:43] Yeah, yeah. I'm just surprised. I'm not surprised. There was the wife. It's not that what's like people, some people like think that maybe the wife's not even real, that the wife is uh a fictive.
+
+[13:55] But he's like our our target customer, technically. Except for he doesn't feel a need to do this stuff. He's reviewed all kitchen products. Yeah, but he apparently doesn't feel a need to do the what the spins all can do. I took his wife poisoned to it.
+
+[14:11] Whatever. Also, good luck, good luck using agar clarification on a Houstino. Good luck with that. Enjoy. Good luck with that one.
+
+[14:19] You know what I'm saying? Like if you want to, if you want to make liquors, like Hustino style liquors, and you want to use Agar, good luck. Alright, so uh like what do you think, Don? I think you know you're right. If you're not gonna be the target market, you know, not the target consumer.
+
+[14:33] If you're not gonna make the things you want with it, why buy why buy it? You know? That's right. If I only want to grill over charcoal, why would I buy an emergent circulator, right? That's right.
+
+[14:41] And you know what the problem is is that Nastasi and I made this error because what we thought was, hey, it is probable that our customer reads wired, right? But what we didn't think was, yeah, yeah, but not everyone who reads wired is our customer, and maybe the person who's reviewing it's not gonna be our customer. True. You know? They also they must have made some sort of like error or something, because it's because um in batch, he said that it wasn't as clear.
+
+[15:10] He must have been doing continuous mode because in batch mode, it's every bit as clear, more clear, with much higher yields than in uh in agar. Well, it's also questionable as to like what he was actually trying to clarify. If it was lime juice, right? We had that problem in Kansas City where they gave us some weird whack lime juice that would never separate. Right.
+
+[15:28] So if he did not use fresh squeezed lime juice and did it exactly correctly, then you know he would have gotten a bad result. That's a good point, Don. You can't blame the centrifuge for that. That is a good point, Don. Someone gave us some effed up lime juice that wouldn't clarify under any circumstances.
+
+[15:42] That's why you gotta look for the break people. If you don't see the break, it won't clarify. I had a good like Johnny Cochran saying for that at our last demo, Don. Do you remember what it was? Don't remember.
+
+[15:53] No. I go to uh the Curtis Bloat, these are the brakes. Ah, nice. Nice. Hey, you want to take a call?
+
+[15:59] Yes, caller. You're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh Custom Green Zone in DC. How you doing? Do you have your unit?
+
+[16:05] Good man, I got my spins on. I'm pretty happy. Um although I haven't run it yet because I forgot to buy the Pectanex, which is on its way now. Ah, yeah, yeah. So my question, I have two questions.
+
+[16:16] One, do I need to add pectinx to everything that I'm gonna put in there? Define everything. So, like, for instance, like uh, let's say like I know you're interested in uh spices, right? So, like uh even even though you're mainly doing cocktails, like you know, I know like let's say you're doing uh I used to do a lot of um spice oils, which suck to filter out, and those you just boom run them through and your oil gets clear as day and the spice like packs itself into the thing. So if you're gonna do like a like curry oils or any kind of oil like that, like it works fantastically without pectinex.
+
+[16:51] Obviously, like herb oils, if you're gonna make some of those and emulsify them in, those work uh fine. Uh also bitters, like settling the stuff out of bitters doesn't always require pectinx, although if you're using um what's the word I'm looking for? If you're using uh what the hell's wrong with my brain? Uh citrus peels. Citrus peels throw pectin into your bitters, uh, and those need some pectanex to clear out properly.
+
+[17:15] But if it's not a citrus heavy uh bitters, you can do bitters without it. Um also Moroccan preserved lemons, uh well, that's not true because you want to hit it with pectinex to break it a little bit, but you actually don't want those 100% clear because if you fully clarify Moroccan preserved lemon, it loses kind of like a lot of its interest and you can't shake with it as well anymore, but you don't want like as much of the solids going in. So that's uh see what else uh is a not a pectanex thing. Yeah, coffee. Most percolations and fusions aren't don't require pectinx.
+
+[17:47] Um things that don't have pectin, you're suggesting don't need pectinets. Wow, Don. That's very concisely put. That's very concisely put. Okay, the other question I have is if I spin something that has sugar, like a cloudy liqueur, is the sugar gonna precipitate out, or will the sugar be present in a clarified liquid?
+
+[18:08] Sugar will not uh sugar will not um uh leave. You'll still have the sugar. Now, if you if the solid the solids will also retain some of the sugar because the solids also have the sugar. So like if you if you take a really sweet puree, right, both the solids from the puree and the liquids from the puree will be sweet. Um but you know, but no, they this sugar, once once the sugar is in solution, it will never break something out of solution.
+
+[18:36] But if it's already precipitated out, you will separate it. Yes, if it's already precipitated out as a crystal, it will separate. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And um what happens if you put in liquor over 40% AVV?
+
+[18:50] It just won't clarify it. Uh you have an explosion hazard. So the what I did was is uh I wrote the manual and all the recipes around um the fact that I wanted the flash point of the uh liquor to be well below um room temperature, right? And so like if it's warm at all and it's higher proof, and by the way, it's usually not higher proof once it's um once it's uh you know you have your flavoring in it. But I'm just what I'm mainly worried about is just um explosions.
+
+[19:23] I don't want there to be a lot of uh vapor. And also, uh yeah, higher proof things, you gotta make sure you keep all the caps on and the lid and everything uh on the tube feeder so that you don't evaporate off your product. Yeah, of course. Okay, all right. Sounds good.
+
+[19:37] Thanks, bud. All right. Thank you. All right, so last thing I'll say about the spinz all, I hope that uh the shipping people get their fists uh out of their butts. That's the only reason I can assume that this hasn't gone is they've been spending their time seeing how far they can shove their fists up their rear ends instead of shipping uh the products out because there's nothing else.
+
+[19:55] What? Family show. I said rear end, I'm not allowed to I'm not even allowed to give that image. That's how angry I am with them. Questions.
+
+[20:03] Uh these are from last week, right? You want to take another call real quick? Sure, caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, this is Wes calling from Longview, Washington. I'm the guy whose kids like the blueberry soda.
+
+[20:14] Oh nice. Nice. Um hey, so I'm about to start doing some sweet potatoes or try to anyways, and some nut milk and stuff. But um, if I am I am a brewer as well, and if I I have normal brewing amylase at home, is that not fancy enough for any fancier amylae? Uh I've only ever used really fancy amylases, and I use kind of like a shotgun mix of them because remember, like I'm using distiller stuff and not brewer stuff.
+
+[20:40] So, you know, in a brewer stuff, um is like slightly different in a in a in a in a distiller's amylase is they have amylases that are meant to break down the initial slarch stirry that uh they're like thinning, they're it's like thinning agents, and then they have uh after that, so after and those are usually added during the cook of the starch uh so that they get a thin slurry, and then afterwards they add a um they add it like a like a sacrification one, which is probably closer to the one that's in the brewer stuff, right? Yeah so I mean your issue is just gonna be making sure that you get the viscosity kind of low enough and the pre-break on it so that it can then uh break it down. I mean I'm not saying it won't work but I work you know I use these ones that are basically meant to just convert potatoes into vodka. Um and but I don't use them in the correct way though, because I I'll pre-cook the potatoes or whatever uh and then sweet potatoes and then I'll spin them, I'll let them cool a little bit, I'll spin them with the enzymes, add a little bit of water and then uh spin it out. Now you'll know if it worked because if the juice is clear then you converted all the starch.
+
+[21:45] If the juice is not clear then you didn't convert all the starch. But pectin X plus the starch breakdown enzyme, uh if you can get any liquid out of it at all, whether the liquid's clear or not, the liquid might not be as interesting, but that puree is ridiculous. And you've de and you've dewatered the puree so you get this kind of like super dense, super smooth uh puree that you really can't get anywhere else. But I'd appreciate it if you try it with like you know standard homebrew enzyme um let me know whether it works because the problem is is that uh to get Monitors pantry to carry it they'd have to order three different enzymes in pails, batch those liquids together and then have a big enough market to sell out. And so I just don't think we're kind of I haven't come up with enough killer apps for it yet that they're they really want to take that on at this point, which is not saying that they won't in the future, but let me know if like homebrew enzymes work on it.
+
+[22:34] I'll try. Because you know Kenji also has that like do the sous beat hold thing to do with some of the self-amyase stuff. So I wonder if some combination of that but brewer's enzyme have you ever had much luck with that? I mean I've used to do like precooks on a lot of stuff. The issue with the issue with using endogenous enzymes in general.
+
+[22:51] So like some of the endogenous enzymes that people are interested in using are pectin methylesterase, which is like if you ever are familiar with the um the Steingarden. The Steingarden, yes, the Steingarden potatoes which were then taken on by like Jules Robuson Wiley and Heston Blumenthal and all that. You know, you need to hit to a s you need to make it to a certain temperature because a lot of the enzymes that are endogenous enzymes in are only really available when there is some sort of cellular damage. And then the problem is is that then you're riding the line between where the enzymes are denatured and where they're just unavailable to their substrates. So you know I don't really know how much you know what gets sweeter?
+
+[23:33] What gets a t a boat ton sweeter? Carrots. Like if you put carrots in a in a bag and cook them for a long long time at a low temperature like in the 50s they turn bright orange and they get really sweet but stay crunchy. They're weird. But also remember carrots are high in calcium I don't know whether I don't know I don't know what well calcium would be more for pectin methylesterase not for the amyloid enzymes.
+
+[23:55] The answer is I don't know. I mean uh everything has endogenous enzymes in it but typically not enough otherwise when you cook sweet potatoes naturally slow they would that would happen to them and they don't you know what I mean now if you cook things for a lili lily long well no long time I don't know if starch is going to break down that well inulin breaks down very well when you cook it for a long period of time that's why if you long cook a uh what's the word I'm looking for a sunchoke it's not as farty as if you uh slow cook uh an artichoke and I don't know if anyone's done tests on pressure cooking starches to see whether but I don't think I don't think the starches break down in the same way inulin does. I mean they don't have to run and you need to break them down pretty well in order in order to spin them out. Cool. And then any Natrix I'm gonna do some nut milk tonight too.
+
+[24:41] Just blend them with some water and spin them? Yeah, the problem with nut milks is what you're what you want to do is try to keep the uh volume of nuts about the same uh like uh as the volume of the spinzall itself because you just want to retain the solids. You're basically using the spinzall as a nut milk bag and then percolating the liquid through it a couple of times, almost similar to the way coffee is. So you're gonna want to use a i i if if you want your yield to be reasonable, you're gonna need to use a fairly high uh volume of nuts and then just pass as much liquid through as as you want. It I don't know that it's as this is why I haven't pushed nut milk as much as other techniques because I don't know that it's as efficient.
+
+[25:24] I've gotten incredibly delicious results out of it. But uh remember the first liquid you push out are gonna be really watery because in general nut milks you're meant to pass a lot of solids, it's meant to retain solids. If I spin all of the solids out, then it's nut water, which nobody wants nut water. You want like nut milk. And so what you want to do is is force the lighter stuff out by like recirculating the liquid through a couple of times and keep the heavier solids in so that you still have a nice rich thing.
+
+[25:50] But it's all about getting the volume of the um the volume of the rotor fairly full with the nuts. Hmm. Okay. These nuts. Yes, let me know how it works.
+
+[26:01] All right, cool, thanks. All right, cool. Hey, you want to take the break real quick and then we'll come back? All right. Take a break, be right back more with more cooking issues.
+
+[26:18] This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollux, maker of America's number one organic pet food, organics. You put a lot of care and thought into what you eat. After all, you're a food radio listener. That thoughtfulness goes hand in paw with how you feed your pets. Purposeful pet food doesn't happen by accident.
+
+[26:38] Castor and Pollux scours the earth to carefully select the best organic and responsibly sourced ingredients. New Pristine from Castor and Pollux is the only complete line of pet food made with ingredients that are responsibly raised, caught, or grown. Feed your dog or cat the new standard, like grass-fed beef, wild caught fish, and vegetables grown without synthetic fertilizers or chemical pesticides. Pristine from Castor and Pollux. Purposeful pet food.
+
+[27:06] Learn more at heritageradio network.org/slash pets. And we're back. Timothy Timothy wrote in about minerals. Hey Nastasia, I'm 29, married, common law male. Uh partner said I could buy a spinzall, but I decided I'd rather spend the money on cheese.
+
+[27:26] Can't argue with that. I like cheese. Cheese is delicious. You could make cheese. Well, you can make curds, but you can also just drain curds.
+
+[27:36] Could Dave talk a bit about adding minerals to water before carbonating? I ordered all the minerals the Chymos guide talks about. You should also look at uh Art of the Drink Darcy's uh website because he was the first guy that really like Chymos, a lot of what Kymos, which I love, Martin Larish, is uh he does a lot of aggregating, but like a lot of that original research was uh, well, not original, I guess a lot of the bringing back of that information was by Darcy. His book that you can still purchase is called Fix the Pumps, correct? Yep.
+
+[28:03] Fix the Pumps. Uh I incorrectly quoted it in uh recently, something else doing to the pumps, but it's fixed the pumps. Uh and uh he gives a lot of recipes for um minerals. Uh anyway, I ordered all the minerals from the guy, Chimos Guy talks about, his name's Martin, and followed his calculator after inputting what's already in my water based on some municipal website that I found, but I'm having trouble getting the additions to fully dissolve. I bet you are.
+
+[28:26] I'm curious too if there are some flavorslash experimental, uh experiential descriptions of the various possible additions uh Dave could offer. I I I like real salty water, so if he could offer a recipe or something, that would be amazing, uh, but perhaps I'm pushing my luck. Best Timothy. All right, so um I have never had any luck with those uh with those recipes, really. And to be honest, I've only really tried um mimicking the hardcore waters like Apollinaris or Gorolsteiner or these things like this.
+
+[28:55] Nastasia hated them all. She hated them all, right? Uh the issue is is that most of those heavily mineralized uh mineralized waters are produced at great depths, traveling through rocks under pressure with or without uh carbon dioxide. And so uh like solubilizing them in those situations is a different story from trying to add minerals. Now, a lot of the times what you can do to get them to soluble properly is I would read um Darcy's website on it and read uh I think there is a whole section on this in fix the pumps, right?
+
+[29:26] Yeah, there is a section on that. He's pretty active online too. If you message him, he'll probably get back to you. Yeah, he there's specific orders you need to add things in so that stuff doesn't precipitate out. And you need to keep it fundamentally, you need to keep the thing under pressure with CO2 while you're doing it because you need both the pressure and the acidity to uh to get the um to get all that stuff in solution, especially like the carbonates and all that kind of stuff.
+
+[29:50] So I mean that's really the the challenge. Most people when they're doing club soda really just add a pinch of bicarb to it, is what they're doing. They're adding like sodium bicarbonate or something to it. And even Nastasia likes although she says she hates it she buys the water where that's all they've done that alkaline water where they're just basically doping it with a little bit of baking soda. Nastasia loves a gimmick could you make a uh like a higher concentration solution dissolved in something else and then add it already pre-dissolved?
+
+[30:17] Well no a lot of this stuff is in there like close to its solubility limit anyway and then they kind of mutually precipitate. I mean like the the real issue is you know is this a it was you know if if it was made by nature it was you know and it's hard to get them exactly right. First of all if you look at the actual compositions of these waters like Don you and I have looked at the actual compositions of the waters at Lake Saratoga and they're much more complicated. Like and you know I've read some papers that you know like some of these trace trace things like strontium yeah they have a taste. You know who who the hell knows what that is?
+
+[30:50] I certainly don't you know what I mean? I don't know. Do you know? I don't know. I just know that that water tastes different you know what I mean?
+
+[30:59] Stronty. Stronti stronti. I don't know that strontium has a taste but I know strontium's in the water that I that Don and I have been looking at. Uh okay you want to take a call? Sure, call you on the air hey uh this is this is the other John Stewart out in Madison, Wisconsin.
+
+[31:13] Uh met you guys out here when you're offered the Johnny Hunter both pad uh thing um give you a Nastasia and Peter a ride home to your uh to your uh bread and breakfast at late late in the morning. Yeah um so to got the spins all got the CO2 rig I'm gicking out on all that now so definitely up some questions around that. Um and I will say on that whole agar agar thing, I mean, yeah, sure that works, but you know, I want instant gratification, damn it. I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait to freeze the damn thing and all that.
+
+[31:41] It's so much easier on the spinz law for sure. Sure, yeah. And even s even like freeze, like I say, even like quick where you're just doing it and breaking it, is messy, it's finicky. Oh, yeah. It's a pain.
+
+[31:50] Pain in the butt. Yeah. So I want a couple things about that. So one thing is, you know, I'm gonna be doing some um, you know, now that I've got it, I'm gonna be doing some cocktail co carbonated cocktails. One of the things, um, I know you're a your diet soda drinker, but you know, all of your recipes are um, you know, simple syrup.
+
+[32:06] I wonder if there's any I know with a shaken cocktail you have to worry about the texture, the the sugar, dissolved sugars affecting it. But in a carbonated cocktail, is there any effect that worry about? Can I just substitute Splenda and the equivalent amount of um you know water to make up or I guess just Splenda to make up for the sugar content? Um I would not also can you talk briefly about um how how long these fruit juices will last once they're clarified. It seems like uh definitely the lime juice didn't last at all longer than a regular squeeze lime juice would, and but it seems like the the grapefruit juice would last longer.
+
+[32:41] I mean, I get a carton of grape juice grapefruit juice from the grocery store and it sits in my fridge for you know a couple weeks fine. So can you talk about the age and and how how long we can use this stuff? Okay, some people are more sensitive to grapefruit aging than others. I am not that sensitive to it, so especially once it's clarified and like a lot of the Neuryn is taken out of it, like grapefruit juice does last for at least several days in peak condition um in the in the fridge once it's clarified. Orange juice, like I actually enjoy clarifying orange juice and then fermenting it into like you know, like an orange beer.
+
+[33:13] So like then that lasts a good long time because you're fermenting it. Um strawberry juice again lasts a long time. A lot depends on refrigeration, what your initial load of yeast and mold is in it when you're making it. You know, the things that don't last are the things that just destroy themselves. Like lime juice destroys itself.
+
+[33:29] Like uh lemon juice destroys itself. Whereas stuff like uh orange juice and grapefruit juice just like their quality is reduced over time by natural spoilage. So it's a different kind of uh it's a different kind of uh of a situation. You know what I'm saying? Um, how long would you use lime?
+
+[33:48] Like how well from the time you squeeze it and clarify it, how long would you do it to be good product? That day. But you make cordial with it, and now it lasts forever. You know what I mean? Like you make a cordial with that.
+
+[33:59] So you you you do whatever you're gonna do fresh, then you make a cordial with the rest of it, and then you know you can give that as uh holiday gifts from people because it's gonna last forever. You know what I mean? Right, which is what I would do because who the hell needs that much cordial. But uh, you know, um I was thinking of doing that at the bar, and maybe Don and I'll do that at the at the at the next place. I don't know, maybe we'll give cordial out to people, you know, as a you know, thank you or whatever.
+
+[34:22] I don't know, because we'll be able to make a boat ton of it. Because whenever I have leftover Clary Lime, it's like when I'm gonna do this. I don't want to throw it away because that's you're an enemy of quality if you throw it away. So make a cordial, you know. Um have a bunch of good cordial recipes.
+
+[34:35] Now, to your other question, look, soda is roughly 10% sugar, okay? A 10 to 11% sugar in that range, the average soda bricks. Now, uh I drink seltzer water primarily when I was a kid, I was a diet soda drinker. But remember, I was using soda as hydration, right? So I was drinking liters.
+
+[34:57] Let me repeat this. I was drinking liters of this stuff every day. So if you were, if you're drinking liters of sugary beverage, that's just it's just too much. You know what I mean? You can't do it, right?
+
+[35:09] Which is why you either go seltzer or you go diet or whatever you're gonna do. Uh, but you know you can't drink that much, you should not drink that much sugary beverage. Now I'm not an anti-sugar guy. Now first of all, okay you have that. So you're looking at a 10% 10 to 11% sugar by weight beverage and and and if you're me you're drinking a whole crap ton of it.
+
+[35:30] When you're moving into alcoholic cocktails, remember the average alcoholic cocktail is balanced so that is it is as if that 10% product was then diluted with alcohol right and by a little bit of water from the ice. And so in actuality carbonated cocktails have a lower sugar by a good chunk than um than sodas do. Anywhere between on the super dry side like my gin and tonics are super super dry and they're on the order of like four percent sugar four and a half percent sugar on the higher side like seven percent sugar. So they're a lot drier. In fact once you go drier than that you need to rebody it by adding a little bit of glycerin.
+
+[36:12] So the sugar is you need the sugar and the sweetness there to provide some body and some fullness to the flavor and if you don't have it you need to add glycerin to rebody that stuff back up but because there's not nearly as much sugar in a cocktail as there is in a soda and because God help you if you drink as much cocktail as I was drinking diet soda or as much as God forbid I drink seltzer now. Nastasi you see me drink seltzer before? Yeah. What's it look what's it look like? Like an animal it disgust you you can't even look at me right like I can like I'll have like I'll uh I'll drink like a quart in like in like what seconds, right?
+
+[36:49] I mean, like it's crazy. And if you did that with with uh, you know, cocktail, that would be very, very bad. You know what I mean? Very, very bad. And so, like, I'm uh not because of the sugar.
+
+[37:00] Right. I'm uh right. I mean, not because of the sugar. So, like, I like my my feeling is is that keep the cocktails at like their quality level. Now, if I had grown up drinking cocktails full of Splenda, maybe I would like them better.
+
+[37:13] You know what I mean? Like I grew up drinking diet soda, and so I don't mind it. I'm pretty sure that if I had never had a diet soda and someone handed me a diet soda right now, I'd be like, what the hell is that? You know what I mean? Because I'm sure I would hate it.
+
+[37:26] But because I grew up the same way with Stevia, if you train kids to like that garbage from a young age, maybe they will. I don't know. But to me, it's garbage. You know what I mean? I grew up drinking garbage.
+
+[37:36] I grew up drinking saccharin, right? Saccharin is garbage. You know what I mean? When I taste saccharine now, I'm like, I used to drink that. You know, you know what the last drink to have saccharine was?
+
+[37:45] Anyone, anyone? Test. Anyone, what's the last soda to contain saccharin? Peoples, peoples? Tab.
+
+[37:50] Tab? Tab. Uh diet tonic water. Although Tab was quite latent. Diet tonic water, because it has quinine anyway, the producers were like, look, who cares if it gives you cancer?
+
+[38:00] Because you're not drinking that much of it anyway, then no one's pounding it like a drink. You're gonna drink it a genotonic. And quinine's so bitter that we might as well keep the saccharine in, and boom, it adds a little more bitterness to it. You see what I'm saying? Save me some money on the quinine.
+
+[38:12] I think that's what they were saying. So diet tonic water was in fact uh the and I think maybe you can still get it that way with saccharine in it, but it was one of the last drinks to still maintain uh saccharin as its uh artificial sweetener of choice. Anyways, my feelings on uh artificial sweeteners. But you got if you're gonna do it, you gotta body it up. And people, if you're doing uh low sugar drinks in general and you're gonna carbonate them and you don't want them to taste like some sort of vile-flavored water, uh, you gotta add a little body to that crap.
+
+[38:42] Now, the professionals don't use glycerin because they have other things to add as body bodying agents, but the safest, cheapest, easiest thing that we have is glycerin. Huh? All right. Awesome. Alright, cool.
+
+[38:52] Good luck. Let us know how it works. Good luck with it. Thank you. All right.
+
+[38:55] Got time for one more. Uh Jesus. Uh, okay. Uh well, I'm gonna read some of these things. Uh Nastasia, what what should I do?
+
+[39:01] Should I do the the query, the people who are writing in? I'll do some of these. Uh these are some of the people that answered Nastasia's query about who are you? Uh 34 34 male Pasadena, single in dating, have a Sears all, bought a spin saw, looking forward to it. And if I ever do any events in LA, we should uh we'd love to go see it.
+
+[39:19] So that's Glenn. That's him writing in who he is. Female 64 separated, can't buy a spinzall yet because my ex spent all my money. Oh, snap. Now that brutal.
+
+[39:29] That's a listener right there. That's a listener right there. Peggy Mull. Love it. Dedicated.
+
+[39:33] Hello, Nastasia. Male 28 unmarried. First started reading the blog and listening to the show when I was 23. Since I'm emailing you, I'll also provide a topic for the new podcast. Food in the bedroom, edible underwear, and whipped cream bikinis.
+
+[39:45] That sounds like a terrible idea. Terrible. Terrible idea. Yeah. That's the stuff that looks good in the movies, but is a nightmare in the real life.
+
+[39:51] Also, how would you make a whole podcast about that? Well, you could do one. You could have everyone send in their like edible, their like kind of like racy food stuff. We could do in one of our not family show versions of it, and then just like like talk about the the we could actually, you know what? I have a really gross one.
+
+[40:08] It would be funny to get them all in get some experts in here and then actually review them as edibles. Like like review them the way we would review actual food and or drink. Like, you know what I mean? Like as whether it's a good thing. Like Rockstar Wine Day, but a lot less fun.
+
+[40:21] All I'm gonna say is that there you could use natural fruits. You know, people have techniques. You can, you know, look on the YouTubes if you want. Uh the last time I thought about this seriously was in the in the 80s or 90s when uh Tampopo came out. Remember that movie?
+
+[40:35] Great movie. Great movie. Uh two minutes. I'm 37, uh woman, black and single, to be fair to Dave. Uh I hate the taste.
+
+[40:43] Uh oh no. I have the taste of middle-aged white men and music. Have or hate? Have. Have the taste of middle-aged white men and music, food and all.
+
+[40:51] So based on listening to the show for years, uh, and interactions you've had with your audience, I agree with you that the persona the average listener is a middle-aged white married man who loves kitchen gadgets. That's Zoe. Zoe writing in. Uh I'm Ellie. I'm 25, female single graduate student at RISD.
+
+[41:07] Go Risdy. RizDee, you know what you want to have a say about RISD students? They are some hardworking people, man. RISD students, I went years ago to a crit uh at RISD, and I looked at the work they were doing, and I was like, if everyone in the country worked as hard as these people, we would be doing so well. Not like those lazy cowards like you know, pottheads.
+
+[41:24] No, I've never been there. We're not like those lazy weasels at Brown. I'm talking to you, Peter Kim. Um BS in computer engineering. No offense, Brown.
+
+[41:33] I eagerly await the arrival of my spins all. Uh if you are not uh already uh so insensitive to a stop reading, I have general questions. Uh, what goes on? Oh, what about making Slurpees carbonated? Is there hope for us at home with alcohol and um what is the oven toaster microwave you see everywhere now used as subway for sandwiches, 7 Eleven for pizza, mozzarella, blah blah blah.
+
+[41:52] Ellie. Okay, so Ellie, uh I have more that I can do next time. Uh um I'll tell you about I'll give you one more. 35 male married. The wife won't let me buy a $200 3D printer, let alone a centerfuge, Anthony DeGeorge.
+
+[42:04] All right, back to this. Back to the carbonated. So uh remember, you can only carbonate uh liquids. You can't carbonate ice. And so what happens is is that in a slushie, you have uh still roughly somewhere like 30 to 40, 30, somewhere 30, 40% of the liquid is unfrozen.
+
+[42:20] And that is what's carbonated. Because it's very cold and sugary, you can carbonate it to a fairly high level, but those machines are under pressure. The closest thing you can get is to over-chill your product, like carbonate it to hell, over chill it until it is like slushy and keep overcarbonating as you go and then expel it out, and you can get kind of a carbo slushy effect, but it's hard to get it exactly right. You've done that, right, Don? But if you hard-freeze it, you are, as we say, SOL.
+
+[42:49] Uh all right, so we had all these questions we didn't get to about fermenting in Norway and um oh my god, so many questions. Oh, so many questions. Next time, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[43:17] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[43:45] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:31] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, roughly from roughly 12 to roughly like 1245 every Tuesday from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Br Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:59] Good. We got Dave in the booth. Good. And good. I like that.
+
+[1:03] Don't even ask. Just following suit. It's just good. It's good. You do anything interesting, uh, Dave?
+
+[1:08] In what? In life? Well, in this that's food, not food related, some sort of issue that you had over the past week. Um, let me get back to you. All right.
+
+[1:17] And uh we have with us today, for the first time ever, the entire Booker and Dax current Booker and Dax team in the studio with us. We have yeah. We have Matthew, whose last name I'm gonna withhold because he's the customer service representative for Booker and DAX, and I don't want you to be able to dox him and find him in the real life. You know what I mean? Unless he so chooses to out himself.
+
+[1:41] Booker and Docs. Oh, Booker and Doxing. What's up, uh Matthew? How are you doing? How's it going?
+
+[1:45] How the how's that uh Spins All Customer Service treating you? Roughly looking answer for him. How's it how's it going over there? Rough. I see it.
+
+[1:54] Yeah. Yeah. Wait, are you seeing the life melt out of him? Yeah. Nice.
+
+[1:59] So uh how did you come to Booker and Dax? What were you doing before? What was I doing before? I was working in data science. Data science.
+
+[2:07] Wow, what's that French for? Like uh what can just explain to people what data science? Because to me, data science can either be like what I used to do, which is uh design databases for lawyers, or it could be I'm gonna troll data to try to make up some new uh uh epidemic that doesn't really exist. It could be either of those things, or it could be a good use of data science. Uh it wasn't the best use.
+
+[2:31] It was credit cards. Oh, credit cards. Were you mining it so that you could get more money out of the people, or so that you could find people who weren't paying so you could get them to spend more money? All those and fraud. Fraud.
+
+[2:41] Yeah. Fraud. That was the only one that felt redeeming to do. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[2:45] Yeah. Yeah. Well, so uh what do you do you have a word for people who believe that credit card fraud is a victimless crime? Probably right. Wow.
+
+[2:54] You used to work in that business and you don't have like a good like so the businesses I used to work in, I can still instantly spit out like all of the all of the rhetoric. You can't there was no fun lingo, no? No? They didn't instill in you a hatred of credit card fraud? Just working on it.
+
+[3:11] Yeah? Yeah. I mean, for my years of working with uh for my years of working with lawyers, I can tell you I still hate asbestos companies to this day. I still hate them. More than you hate asbestos?
+
+[3:26] You know, it's getting philosophical. I don't. It was called the magic mineral. You know why it was called the magic mineral? Give you wings.
+
+[3:37] Ooh. No, but uh who knows? Maybe uh Red Bull will also turn out to be as horrible as asbestos. No, it uh I think too late. It doesn't expand, it doesn't contract, it lasts virtually forever, it's fairly cheap, it can be molded into you know almost any variety.
+
+[3:50] It's a it's a mineral that comes in fiber form already. It's as though God made fabric out of rocks, you know, and it's heat proof. It's amazing stuff, except it kills you, uh, which is the problem. Okay, now we also have the reason why any of you have a spinzall at all, we have direct from Hong Kong and Shenzhen. We have Chris Witters, who is the Booker and Dax representative in China and in Hong Kong.
+
+[4:18] How you doing, Chris? Fantastic. Yeah? And so Chris, I'll let him tell a little bit of his story, but Chris uh, you know, is now like uh, I don't know what you would describe what you do. You beat people's heads together until they do what they need to do, is kind of what you do.
+
+[4:32] Lone shark? Well except you don't need to you only need to pay back that guy because he's gonna break your knees otherwise. I mean, like it's Chris more like takes people who should be doing their job and aren't, and then just sits there and like harangues them until they do it. Is that I mean, like what do you what is that even called? What's that job title?
+
+[4:51] Like how would someone find someone like you if they needed to find you look up in a directory for an asshole. Family show, Chris. Family show, a hole. A hole. And uh, but before that, uh Chris was a chef uh in like in New York, at Walt Disney World.
+
+[5:14] What did you do at Walt Disney World? Uh regional chef. Yeah, nice. All right. So how do you get from chef into product?
+
+[5:21] Is most of your product design on the kitchen side, or or or not product design, but product shepherding, whatever we call this job that you do? Mainly kitchen? Mainly kitchen. Massaging. Sometimes it seems like it.
+
+[5:39] It's like uh, you know that where we're gonna open the new bar is all massage parlors, but it's it's it's uh foot massage parlors. And so like you're actually like Matthew, you would be sitting next to Nastasia, like like in close proximity, both of you getting your feet massaged. And for me, that's unpleasant. I would not want to do that. Doesn't sound great.
+
+[6:00] Would you want to do that? Would you want to do that, Nastasia? It doesn't bother me. You wouldn't you wouldn't want to sit next to what about if it's next to May? Yeah no.
+
+[6:08] Yeah, right. You don't get to choose. Women get pedicures. How's that different? A pedicure is like a more like a functional They also massage your feet.
+
+[6:16] Uh I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know. You can add up the number of pedicures I've gotten in my life on zero hands. You know what I mean? And the number of manicures I've ever gotten, you can add up on zero hands.
+
+[6:26] But I do enjoy a head massage at the at the at the hair salon. What about uh people do foot massage over there, like straight up regular foot massage over there in Hong Kong or no? Oh, yeah, it's quite a bit. Yeah. Quite a bit.
+
+[6:37] You can see massage parlors everywhere. Well, yeah. But I mean like regular feet massage, just feet? Yes, more or less. All right.
+
+[6:46] So call in all of your spinzall related questions, uh, booker and dax related questions, equipment manufacturing questions, or really any questions. Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's seven one eight four nine seven a two one a two eight. We do have a caller on the line. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[7:03] We did have a caller. Hey, sorry about that. No, I had uh the mute button on. Yeah, yeah. Uh first off, great that the spindle guys are there because this is a spindle question.
+
+[7:12] Ah yeah. Uh first off, big ups to Matthew because he helped me with spin doll problems via email. So so uh well well well picked. Um but my my question regards um an old recipe from uh from the bar, which was the champion houstino. Yes.
+
+[7:29] Um I've done I've done, you know, the various uh uh Houstinos from Liquid Intelligence, but uh obviously the mushrooms don't have uh pectin, so how do I how do I work with that? What's the technique? That is an excellent question. Uh as a true politician would say that's an excellent question. I'm glad you asked that question.
+
+[7:50] Next question. No, uh that that uh that recipe was actually uh Nick Bennett's. That wasn't uh my recipe. And um and because I made it a habit to only ever do demos of like my specs, my personal specs, like whenever we had to do a demo of it, he always did it. And I honestly I don't know how they did it.
+
+[8:14] I'm pretty sure they started with uh dried shiitakis. Um and I think honestly, it was less of a Houstino and more of an infusion. So they and then so what they would do, I don't think we bought powdered shiitake. I think we bought just regular shiitake and maybe did like a pulse blend into it and infusion and then just spun out the solids. Because the the trick with um so as you rightly point out, mushrooms are not made of uh pectin, they're made of chitin.
+
+[8:47] Um and I don't believe they did a like a Kiesel salt uh chitosan thing and plus also chitin is not charged in the same way that Kitusan is because it hasn't been uh uh treated. Um so I th my guess is is that it works much more just like a settling out the same way that if you were clarifying a bitters, for instance, like or a spice oil, which by the way is not something we push a lot, but it's a good use. So if you're making like a curry oil or something like this to get the spices out. Because you're not really solubilizing uh when you blend a banana, you're putting banana juice into it or dates, and you're putting solubilized pectin into it that you need to knock out. And in this, I think it's much more of a uh suspension slash infusion, but that's just a guess.
+
+[9:35] Um next time I um next time we have Jack uh Shram on the show, I'll uh I'll try to remember to ask him to put out the or Nick Bennett, we can call Nick Bennett and have him give the uh the straight spec for it. Um at some point I want to post all of the old Booker and Dax recipes up. Uh I owe actually Bloppins, who gave me some beer to spin in the spinz all uh a recipe. I think he wants the Thundernut, which also is not one of my specs, but I have to post that. Thunder nut.
+
+[10:04] Was the stirred bird from um one of the menus your your recipe or no? Stirred bird was not my recipe. Stirred bird was what who was that? That was either I can't remember whether it's Jack or or Nick. I mean, remember Nick, any time something is stirred, I want to say Nick Bennett worked on it because Nick Bennett's whole like mission in life was to take all uh drinks and unshake them.
+
+[10:28] And so like he did stirred versions of everything. But that might have been a bar wide thing as well, because the entire bar was interested in kind of the, you know, as everyone was at that time, the jungle bird and different um ta takes on it. But in general, I mean that's not like it's a delicious drink, but it's not my ment that's not my mental it's not my it wouldn't be my go-to mentality jump off point. Not that I I mean I'd be proud if it was my spec. It's delicious, but in general, like uh, you know, I'm not a I'm not a let's see if we can dork with this to get that.
+
+[11:02] I'm more of a, you know, I'm more of a I have this weird ingredient, what am I gonna do with it? Kind of a kind of a guy. But I can also get you that spec. I really think like really my roundabout way of asking you for the spec, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not uh not your drink.
+
+[11:16] During during the break. During the break, I have this. One quick technical note for whoever runs the board. Um, everyone sounds fine on this phone interface, except for Dave, who sounds like he's running through a cheap fuzz pedal. Oh man, it's because he's really loud.
+
+[11:31] Um here, how about this? I'll tell you what, I love it. I love a cheap fuzz pedal, is like who makes those? PV? Remember PV?
+
+[11:39] I would probably go with the like the cheapest boss ones from the 90s. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Do you know you know what was a really not good uh base uh bass pedal is uh I used to have you know the wawa pedal?
+
+[11:55] You familiar with Wawa pedals? Yeah, they feel good, wah wa pedals. I had a base wa, and I just never like I never loved it. Like it took too much chunk out of the bottom of my base for me to actually enjoy it. Even though I wanted the wawa on the bait.
+
+[12:12] You like wahwa, don't you, Matthew? Go for a good who doesn't like Wawa. Chris, are you a Wawa fan? Not Wawa Hot Dogs, not Wawa at the store from Connecticut. Connecticut.
+
+[12:23] Is that where that's not where it originated? Well, I don't know where it originated, that's where I used to go to it. Yeah, anyway. Caller, you're on the air. Dave.
+
+[12:29] How are you doing? It's Matt from Mystic. Oh, Jesus, Matt from Mystic. We owe Matt from Mystic a freaking spinz all cr. Okay, Matt.
+
+[12:41] Matt. Okay, so Matt from Mystic. There are a couple of people in the United States where it got delivered, but then someone stole it, or it got delivered, but the person was in another country at the time. We have one or two people like that. But Matt from Mystic.
+
+[13:01] Matt from Mystic, who I have personally met and spoken with, enjoyed, had a beer with, I think. I think we had a beer on the 4th of July. That's right. For some reason, it is his spinzall that is sitting in freaking Carson, not Carson City. I was m incorrect.
+
+[13:23] And we don't know why it hasn't been shipped from Carson. Now, what I'm gonna do, Chris Witters, when are we gonna get uh more units into the country? It should be uh October third. Right, but we're uh like uh we should just we're just gonna ship you one from the from the like we have the first next group of ones that we can send, so we'll just send you one direct from Hong Kong on a separate thing because I don't know what the hell happened. We I liter quite literally every day I send an email to the shippers in China and I say to them, what is up with this order?
+
+[14:03] And then they somehow conveniently never respond to that question. Uh Chris, am I right on this? That's right. And I'll personally ship that product for you. There you go.
+
+[14:15] So we we don't have like it's like um it's it's not even an issue of like uh it the frustrating thing about it is we they like we literally don't have any more or didn't have any more units to to send other than like you know the protos that I have, you know, uh, you know, that we have uh at the at the house. And so we haven't been able to um send like so there's some people who also who need repairs, we haven't been able to uh you know, uh RMAs on units that have things wrong. And so we literally in the past couple of days, Chris has been here in the US, but his office in China has gotten a hold of a a a batch of like ten from the factory that we're gonna use for returns that people need to fixings on, and for you, because it's just freaking ridiculous. Am I right? That's correct.
+
+[15:04] Yeah. And I don't think it's helpful, but I personally hate the people who are shipping, and I wish them ill, and I hope that they don't have success in life, and I, you know, I want bad things for them. I'm not gonna go so far as to say I want bad things for their family, because I don't believe that that's a good thing to do. I don't think you should blame people's families for what people do, but um close, close to that. Um what do you think, Chris?
+
+[15:35] We're in the same path. Yeah, yeah. So were you do you just want to make me feel bad, uh, Matt from Mystic, or did you have another question? I wasn't calling you up to give you the paper. All right.
+
+[15:45] But do you have a question or you just want to know where you're rightly want to know where your where your spin's all is? No, I figured you'd let me know, but uh no, I was uh uh are you familiar with the concept of like the Vitamix whole fruit juicing? The Vitamix what? It's like they call it whole fruit juicing. Basically, I'm wondering if a Vitamix is good enough to juice certain things for the spinzall when it eventually shows up at my door.
+
+[16:08] Okay, so first of all, when you say good enough, I'm trying to crush it into that share mentally. I'm trying to crush that sentence into the share song, but I don't think I can maybe Dave in the booth can do it for me. Somehow get that share song into that. Wait, what song? Oh, you know, are you strong enough?
+
+[16:24] You know, that that share like whenever anyone says the word strong now, share pops into my head. You know, I shouldn't probably say this. What's wrong with share? You don't like share? I I don't really have a strong opinion.
+
+[16:33] Nastasia has some share story stories. That's what I'm saying. You probably shouldn't talk about it. Yeah. I I shouldn't say it.
+
+[16:41] So I didn't. I just let people know that there is a story there, which is you know, good. Lee, you know, you're still the international woman of mystery there, Nastasia. Um so the answer is both yes and no. I mean, when you're juicing citrus, you want to use a citrus press, like period.
+
+[16:59] Right. You know what I mean? When you're juicing apples, vita preps are not the way to go. Uh it's for some reason apples are so high in pectin that when you just just juice them, like they don't clarify as well for some reason. I just never had good luck with blending apples in a in a blender.
+
+[17:16] Uh I always use a champion for apples, but almost everything else, right? I guess ginger, I use um ginger, I use the uh champion. If you're doing straight horseradish juice, I used the champion, but I actually recommend uh horseradish Houstino in vodka over doing straight horseradish juice. It's much better. And then you can just use the vita prep.
+
+[17:41] So um I also don't recommend Vitapepping, or really, if you're gonna clarify, I don't really recommend juicing ginger. Ginger juice doesn't clarify very well because of the starch starch that's in it. But for most fruits, right, with the exception of apples and citrus, yeah. I would say, you know, I mean, if you if you if you were thinking, should I get a vitaprep? The answer is always yes.
+
+[18:04] Um they're great to have. You know, I've never, as I've said, I think on the air several times, I've never met anyone who was like, you know what I should not have bought? I should not have bought that vita prep. That was a bad, that was a bad move. You know what?
+
+[18:17] It turns out I don't like blenders. That doesn't happen. I've never I've never heard of that happening. Like maybe, you know, if someone bought a vita prep and they went bankrupt the next day, they would have been like maybe I should have waited before I bought the vita prep. But let me give you another hint.
+
+[18:31] Like when someone closes a restaurant, right, with very, very few exceptions. Like they they have auctions is what happens. When you have very, very few exceptions, you go in there and there's no vita preps. So if you just go to restaurant auctions, you might think, well, maybe these restaurants didn't have vita prep. No, they could because nobody leaves the vita prep behind because everybody wants one.
+
+[18:51] You know what I mean? It's like, Chris, what do you think? The Vitapep, everyone wants a Vitapep. One wants a good blender, right? Of course they do.
+
+[18:57] Yeah. Uh it's why you also never find Paco Jets. I literally once bought a Vitapep at a restaurant auction because what happened is they they just they didn't really close the restaurant so much as they took the entire team, picked them up, and shipped them to Vegas to open a restaurant on the double quick, and so like all the stuff was left in the kitchen. And I was like, All right, I'll buy the Vitapep. And that's how I got my very first Vitaprep.
+
+[19:20] 60 bucks. It was a great deal. Bad bearing, but guess what? I know how to fix bearings. Um anyway, so the answer is yes.
+
+[19:27] For many things, the Vitaprep is a fantastic juicer, but uh the champion's also a good thing to have around because champion's really good for if you ever want to like grind cocoa nibs to start doing kind of chocolate, it's a very good pre-grind. Uh the champion is very good for uh for a pre-grind on nut butters, nut butters. Umastasia hates making nut butters. Remember when we used to just sit there for hours at the French culinary, like first robo cooing and first like champion picking out all the things. First picking out the bad nuts.
+
+[20:01] Here's another secret for you, Matt from Mystic. Here's what people do. They buy nuts, right? And then they just take the can of freaking nuts and they dump the nuts into whatever processor they're gonna use it. And if you ever take the time to look at a batch of nuts, every batch of nuts has a bunch of bad nuts in it.
+
+[20:20] And it only takes a couple bad nuts, bad nuts, to ruin the whole batch, especially pistachios. So if you're gonna buy pistachios, literally I I I spent the money on this because I wanted people to know. I was like, just take a b take a can of nuts, dump it and make uh make a you know uh nut milk with with that, and then take a can of nuts, pick out all the nasty, shriveled, yellow, crappy tasting ones, and make a batch with that, and tell me that there's not a dramatic difference between the two. And of course there is. So you should always pick over, you should always pick over your nuts before you're going to uh use them, right, Stas?
+
+[21:00] Exactly. Anyway. Uh so I mean, I don't want to get you in trouble over there in Mystic uh with buying a bunch of equipment, but I would definitely go for the Vitaprep. Yeah, no, I got a Vitamix. I was wondering if if uh the champion, if you thought the champion would be necessary for spinzole use.
+
+[21:14] Well, you're already in it for a spinzall and a vita prep. What the hell? Champion is like, you know, the least of your problems, brother. Just like, you know, what is the champion cost now? A hundred and it's a hundred and fifty dollars, right?
+
+[21:26] Uh but I think it's closer to two, but uh it's more a space issue for me. Right. The thing about I'm a f I'm um I'm a big believer in keeping as much equipment on the on the counter as you can because it's gonna you're gonna use it more if it's on the counter, which is true. However, for something like the champion juicer, you never have like a refrigerator full of apples and you'd be like, you know what? I'm either gonna juice this or not.
+
+[21:50] So, you know, oh the juicer's out. I'm gonna juice all those freaking apples. That doesn't happen. So what happens is is you're like, I'm gonna go make uh apple cider today, and then you go and you juice it. So what you do there is you go get you know, you're gonna pull it out of storage.
+
+[22:04] So it's okay to have something that you know is only for certain tasks in storage because you know, it's never like, ah, am I gonna make pasta today? I don't know. I always have flour, but if my machine's not out, I'm not gonna make it. It's not one of those kind of a situations. I will say this I have used for apples side by side the brevel juicer and the champion juicer, and the brevel juicer has it's easier to use than the champion, 'cause the champion you the champion is also like a good like forearm and like, you know, um if you ever seen the movie Over the Top with Sylvester Salone, it's a good it's a good kind of over the top workout because you're like shoving apples in like one after the other.
+
+[22:44] In fact, like I've said it before on the air, I once Nastasi and I just for fun did so many apples in a row that remember Nastasi, it burned the unit out, and you were just putting wet towels over the champion and they were like s like boiling hot, and then when we finally turned it off, the magnet had been melted out, so it didn't have a safety on it anymore, and that sucker still kept on going. That's why I love the champion. I love anything that's willing to melt itself into oblivion just to produce juice for you. I mean, it's just like it's like to me, like everything in the world should be like that. Everything should be willing to just turn itself into a melted puddle of mess while it's still producing juice anyway.
+
+[23:20] Uh, and I think all things should produce juice. Um, where was I? Champions, apples. Oh, the brevel is easier physically to use, uh, but it produces a juice with more pulp in it. So it has uh so on the one hand you might like that because it's a higher body of juice.
+
+[23:37] The juice has like a like a more of a kind of a viscosity to it. But I found that when we were doing when I was making cider, so I'd make a five-ballon gatch uh five-ballon bat a ga a batch of cider out of a brevel versus a five uh gallon batch out of uh out of a champion because I don't have a traditional press, uh that I got a higher clear yield out of the champion than I did out of the brevel because it had a much higher um uh amount of pectin in it, if that's helpful to you. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, and also well, we're on the subject of old Booker and Dex, top tail specs.
+
+[24:10] Uh the struggler was one of my favorites. So maybe I'm gonna I'll take that off the air. Ooh, the struggler. Okay, so maybe during the break, if I have time, I have the specs on my phone. If I can find them on my phone, I can try to get the specs.
+
+[24:23] So, what do we have now? We have the stirred bird, the struggler, and the championistino as requests. Yeah, you know what? We should just get the old, like we should we should get like a cross section of the old Booker and Dax bar team on the radio sometime and just go over it. It'd be fun.
+
+[24:36] Get like Nick, get Jack, get like a bunch of people who are still in New York. And those guys. Anyway, Souther Teague, who was he's supposed to come on this show, and I'm supposed to come on his show, but he's always working during this. Anyway, whatever. We'll work on it.
+
+[24:49] Alright, so Struggler. It's on the list of ones. Maybe I'll try to find it over the break. Hello? He's gone.
+
+[24:57] He took it off the air. Alright, cool. Alright, uh, so Dave, you want to take a break and come back with more cooking issues? Uh sure. All right, here we go.
+
+[25:16] Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast.
+
+[26:02] All right, we're back. I'm not that good. Like I was hoping I could be like I could just go into my phone and type specs and then have the specs come up, but uh no su no such no such love. So uh you want to answer some actual questions, Nastasia? Yeah, you gonna go back two weeks?
+
+[26:19] At least two weeks. I mean, I don't know how I don't know, I have questions on my machine, and we'll we'll answer them. So Scott wrote in, uh, I own a smokehouse with the ability to smoke a at a wide range of temperatures. I've read a lot of Marianski's home production, which is the home production of quality meats and sausages. I like that.
+
+[26:35] I've never read that book though, so I can't comment on on that book. But uh I have a love-hate relationship with the word quality because quality can be low quality, as in all of us, low quality individuals, right, Nastasia? Yep. That's the kind of quality we have. Yeah.
+
+[26:51] Low quality individual. You know, we uh we saw someone in Boston with a low quality individual shirt and with an enemy of quality shirt. Really? Like in yeah. At Harvard.
+
+[27:00] At the Harvard, yeah. Uh Dax actually wears the uh low quality individual shirt all the time. And you know that I got it I got an Instagram that there is a taco place in Milwaukee that has an enemy of quality taco. Which I I What's in it? Uh it's basically it's just you choose uh I don't know why the name of it went out of my head because I know the name.
+
+[27:22] Uh when uh it just has like it's like meat meat and cheese of your choice. You don't want what they chose because you don't like good things because you're an enemy of quality, which is fantastic. I need to go back to Milwaukee Stas. We'd like to go back to Milwaukee sometime, shouldn't we? Yeah.
+
+[27:33] By the way, I'm gonna just say this uh off the top uh, you know, right uh right at the get-go. Um for like meat curing questions, we should just have, because we have so many of them, and I'm not like you know, an expert in it, we should just have like like either like call in or in the studio our meat curing buddies in and just do a you know, let everybody know like two weeks in advance. We're gonna do a meat curing episode. Call in all of your meat curing uh stuff, and and you'll see why as I as I talk about this. Because I think that even if I don't know the answer, I could probably elicit some good answers out of people who actually do it for a living.
+
+[28:07] Um so we're talking now about uh Mariansky's book, Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages. But unless the book outlines an exact procedure that I want to follow, I have trouble using that book. It varies from densely technical to vague and often seems uh contradictory. Now, this is a problem I think that all technical cookbooks uh have. Like having written a book that has like technical stuff in it and dealing with technical issues all the time, like you're if you're a real practitioner of something, right?
+
+[28:38] You kind of know what you know, you know what you do, uh, and you're probably pretty good at it. If you know if you're good enough at it that someone's asking you to write a book about it, you're probably pretty good at it. Um but when you're writing a book, you feel the need to say a bunch of external stuff to what you do all the time. And a lot of times you know so much about something that it's even kind of difficult for you to write about it, and because there's so much nuanced information in your head, it's very difficult, very, very difficult, and thank God I have my wife to help me do this, but like to draw a coherent through line through your knowledge to help somebody else um uh learn. So things can be contradictory, and if you had the dude or you know, whoever, if you had them in front of you for a half hour, they could explain to you why it's not a contradiction.
+
+[29:27] But it's very, very, very, very, very, very hard to write a book where that's the case. And I think that in general, there's also uh, especially in meat meat curing, especially, because there is uh a health safety aspect involved in it where people are worried that they're gonna kill you with botulism or kill you with something else, uh, or that they're gonna have you use too much of a curing agent or whatever it is they're worried about uh from a l not just a liability in terms of that they're gonna get sued, but a liability that they don't want anyone to misuse the information that they have and get hurt. I mean, I worry about that, you know. Um so because of those two things with meat curing, meat curing is an especially difficult thing to write uh a book about. Um, which is why I think it's probably uh would be f nice to have like like a group of people on who do it professionally and then just kind of pester them about okay, what can you know, what can you say, what can't you say, what do you do versus what you're allowed to, you know, talk about anyway.
+
+[30:27] Uh because as you say, I have no formal training in science or food, but I usually want to know per meat type per pound uh salt and cure content, like one or two. Although honestly, you're almost always using uh the short acting, the nitrite, unless you're doing like whole cured cuts of meat, you should pretty much always be using nitrite and not nitrate. Uh I mean I think and like you know, you can usually tell if the non-professional older recipes that have nitrates instead of nitrites. So I would be a little leery of anyone that uses a nitrate recipe for anything other than like a ham or you know, a very thick uh cut of meat. Uh how much smoke can I safely apply at what temperature?
+
+[31:06] And then you say, for example, my favorite and we uh is always smokier than mine. My smoked turkey is very tremendously in moisture and smokiness over the year, but not knowing how all these variables affect each other has prevented me from solving these problems. Uh Brian and Cure would probably protect the turkey enough for me to put it in the smokehouse uh instead of a grill, but I don't know how to make that safe. And by the way, like if so, if you read like uh you remember we had uh Meathead on the show, and he has a thing on amazing ribs, and he is vastly, he's very worried about people doing low temperature smoke outs because he's worried that you're gonna encourage the growth of um of bacteria botulism, specifically in the smoke. And the the real issue with it is, right, well if you nitrate it, it's not you know, nitrite it, it's not gonna, you're not gonna get botulism with nitrites because they can't grow up, but whatever.
+
+[31:44] Let's just not get into that right now. The real problem is is that it's very difficult to maintain um an actual temperature on a piece of meat because of evaporative cooling. So it's very hard to judge what the actual temperature on a piece of meat is, whether you're keeping it in the in the kind of a safe zone or not, unless you're keeping it high enough to ensure that there's no bacterial growth even with evaporative cooling. So it can be somewhat difficult, which is why they have interesting new uh smokers that are controlling the whole atmosphere, including the humidity that are kind of cool. Anyway, are there any good sources of rules of thumbs for controlling these variables to formulate my own cooking processes?
+
+[32:25] I get overwhelmed uh when I research these issues and find it hard to believe blogs. Uh I'd like to control for these variables uh like I do for daiquies in a spreadsheet. Sorry for such a general question, I'm still enjoying the show and won't buy a sous vide book until yours is out. Well, you should buy anyone's book, it's gonna be different, don't worry about it. Um but I think we really we should just get some people on the show.
+
+[32:44] I think that in general uh it is true that different cuts of meat with different fat contents are gonna respond differently to uh salting. They're gonna respond differently to the application of heat in terms of how long it takes the heat to go through them. But in general, there's a relatively small number of bugs that you're trying to kill. Uh when I say bugs, I mean microorganisms, relatively small amount. Uh there's a you know, relatively, you know, uh there's multiple hurdles, right?
+
+[33:11] You have salt, you have nitrites, um, and you have uh salt, nitrites, and temperature. And like those variables are like, you know, you're you're pretty much always trying to hit similar numbers on those things. And then the question is, like, what's the what's the, you know, what's the right right answer? So I think, you know, we can come and we can say, okay, look at an oily fish, a not oily fish. Uh you know, chopped up meat, not chopped up meat, you know, uh lean like a beef versus like something fattier like pork.
+
+[33:41] And we could try to hash those numbers out, but I'd rather do it with um some experienced uh cure people. See whether, Dave, uh see whether anyone in the booth wants to have a show like that where we get, I don't know, like uh Johnny uh or like uh Olympia Provisions back on and just do like a cure episode. See whether anyone's interested in that. Yeah, actually, somebody is talking about that right now. All right, we'll try to set it up.
+
+[34:02] Would like to combine Koji with my sausage and cured meats. No idea how to start. There you go. Well, for that we'd need to get uh Rich back on the uh our cook quest uh back to do uh Captain Koji to do some uh Koji stuff. Captain Koji.
+
+[34:17] Nastasia's like, Koji. She has her Koji face on. What's your is that what that is? That's her Koji face. It's a smile though.
+
+[34:25] It's a smile, it's a smile, the Koji face. Uh Tim writes in for my next equipment purchase. Uh I'm looking at DIYing a vacuum chamber for infusions uh primarily, possibly hacking my old crock pot as a low temperature cooking bath and building a carbonating rig for cocktails. Thought on thoughts on which project to tackle first. Do the vacuum chamber.
+
+[34:42] Actually, you know what? Well, carbonation is so easy, it's not really a project. You just buy the stuff, woman together, and you and it's done. The vacuum, I wouldn't do a crock pot into a into a uh a circulator. It's just I don't see the point.
+
+[34:54] Like, you know, once you buy a crock pot and you get the PID, and it's never gonna be as uh, you know, as as easy or as much fun as uh using a real circulator, and you can get a real circulator now for a couple hundred bucks. It's just I don't see the return on in on time investment there unless you really, really want to. I mean, it's not like the average person who's doing a DIY on an immersion circulator, it's not like they're learning how to how to you're not even learning how to tune a PID looper, you know, like the the ultimate, like if you want to if you're like, hey, listen, I'm interested in control, and I want to write a PID loop. I want to learn how PID works. I want to like learn the math behind it and like actually like tuning a system and and then yeah, then it's worth doing, like, but you could also just do that like theoretically on the computer, like you know, you can get a version of anyway.
+
+[35:43] My point is, I would it's I don't think at this point that that's as interesting a project as the DIY vacuum chamber is uh good because if you're a DIY person and you have a DIY vacuum rig, you can use it for food, you can use it for drink, hell, you can use it for plaster, you can use it for uh like degassing like uh urethane if you want to build things or like casting resins. I use my DIY vacuum stuff for all of those things. You know what I mean? Like uh when I'm doing prototypes, um, you know, I now have actually a much fancier uh you've you you guys know about the um you know those um those epoxies that have the long tube with the static mixers in them so that you when you press it it comes out of the tip mixed, it looks like a bunch of blades next to each other, you know what I'm talking about inside of the so I have a super fancy resin gun like that that's like the it's like it's like uh I don't know what what size did you say that is big? It's like you it's like you're holding a big thing.
+
+[36:44] It's like it's like it's like if I was a two-year-old holding a caulk gun. That's like that's the size of it, right? If you can picture me as a two-year-old holding a full-size caulk gun, that's the thing. And it hooks up to a pneumatic thing and it in and it pre it mixes without adding any air, uh urethane resins, and deposits them without air, so you don't need to do a degas on the resin, and it's hooked up to an air compressor, so it doesn't even take any any any you're you're literally like you're just like and it's like and no nothing. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:17] I still do pressure casting because you know, whatever. But um anyway, yeah, cool. So I would do a vacuum chamber. Uh the trick with a vacuum chamber is choosing something that won't crush. So uh round bain marie's stainless steel round bane marie's typically do not crush.
+
+[37:35] Uh square and rectangular Bane Marie's and hotel pants crush like mothers. They just crush, they crumple. In Europe, they make a special one that doesn't crush, but guess what it is? Expensive. Uh so I would stick with round.
+
+[37:48] Here's some other things that don't crush. All clad pots don't crush. Uh and so what you do is you just get like a you get like a refrigeration vacuum uh machine, they have oil in them, so they kind of stink and they're a little bit loud after they've been running for a while. Put oil in it, and then uh you just stick a rubber tube, you get a piece of uh of like a Lexan and you uh drill a hole in it and you put a a fitting on it with a barb. You put like a little piece of uh like you adhere some uh adhesive uh silicone uh or rubber to the to the Lexan, cut a hole, make make sure you cut a hole in the silicone so you can see through it.
+
+[38:21] And this is just the easiest way. There's nicer ways, much nicer ways, but then that can fit on any round thing that the that and you can get a uh a one foot square piece of uh Lexan, no, you know, like uh um three-eighths or half inch or something from McMaster Carr or on Amazon that's not you know not hard, and then you put that on and it fits on any lid. Yeah, sorry, it acts as a lid. You can fit on uh any pot or Bain Marie, and I use that all the time. The one square thing that doesn't crush is um uh uh six pans, small six pans tend not to crush, like the six-inch tall six pans, they're so sm small and chunky that they tend not to crush.
+
+[38:59] Uh and so you can do those, but yeah, I'll totally do that. And you can have a lot of fun with that. I have a lot of fun with that. I still use it because you know what? A vacuum machine, I'm not gonna stick resin in my in my actual uh you know, mini pack machine, and a mini-pack machine is like thousands of dollars, and you can do this whole thing for like a hundred and twenty-five bucks.
+
+[39:18] Anyway, so that's what I would do. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Um what do you think? Anyone?
+
+[39:25] Anyone? Any thoughts? No? No thoughts? Sounds good.
+
+[39:28] All right. Julian wrote in. I'm sure Julian's already gone to Hawaii, but I'm flying to Hawaii with friends soon. This is like five months ago, Anastasia. Somehow this kid's on getting shuffled around.
+
+[39:36] And detest, detest. I like anyone that doubles up on detest is a friend of mine. If you double up on how much you hate something, that's a strong move. Uh detest the free my and free is in quotes here because it's so detestable that actually they should pay, they should pay him. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:54] So it's like free in the sense that they're not charging you money, but the aggravation is as though you paid money, right? I feel that's what the why f the word free here is in quotes. The free Mai ties that they give you during the flight. I've never been to Hawaii. Do they give you a free Mai Thai on every flight to Hawaii?
+
+[40:10] No idea. If you're flying like Pentecostal air, do you get a a free Mai Thai on that? Doesn't seem likely. It doesn't seem likely. Although Nastasia once had to fly to Europe.
+
+[40:21] We were both flying to Europe, and she flew emirates, and I thought that was gonna be a dry flight, but she came off that plane soaked in liquor. She was like pickled like a freaking cherry when she got off that plane. Wasn't that you that was flying Emirates that time and you like thought like I have to fly Emirates and it was awesome? No, it wasn't Emirates, it was No, it wasn't Emirates. But you know you remember what I'm talking about.
+
+[40:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh anyway. Uh I was hoping I could bring some stuff with me on the flight to assist in making a quality, fun, tiki-like cocktail during the flight. However, in order to keep the free world safe, as you know, the TSA is gracious with a few rules. Um so here's the TSA rules, right?
+
+[40:56] Which I'm sure Chris, you know, as being an international traveler that you are, Hong Kong and US. Uh can't bring booze, uh, need to use what they have on the flight. Now, that's just to be legal. I mean, everybody on freaking earth knows that the actual rule is that you're allowed to bring as many of those little travel bottles that you can fit in a quart container, uh quart uh Ziploc bag. So my general what I do a hundred percent of the time is I go and I buy travel size things, I rinse them, which is hard.
+
+[41:26] You ever you you ever try to rinse out shampoo bottles, guys? It's very hard. Like the the the uh what's it called? The um the aromas that they put into those things and and you try to buy like opaque bottles so people can't see into it. Head and shoulders is a classic because it's white bottle uh and it seals pretty well.
+
+[41:45] But um it they they to get that smell out of the bottle is a pain in the ass. But anyway, put butt, pain in the butt is what I meant to say. Family show. Uh so that's how I bring Kiesel saw with me, Kitasan, SPL when I'm flying around, because I bring them in travel size bottles because I don't like checking luggage. I don't like checking luggage because uh I once had a bunch of checked luggage that I needed for a demo get lost uh by the airline and they didn't get it to me in time for the demo, so now I only like to travel with stuff that I can carry in the carry on to make sure that I can do my you know whatever I'm doing when I land.
+
+[42:20] So you can't the truth of the matter is is you can bring liquor on the freaking airplane. You're just not supposed to bring liquor on the freaking airplane. That was a long way to say that. That's right. Uh yeah.
+
+[42:31] So you're any single container is 3.4 ounces, one quart, well, one quart bag. I don't know that you're allowed to bring an actual quart, but you it has to all of your bottles have to fit in a single quart bag, right? Which is not the same thing. Um so with four people, you get four quarts. Okay.
+
+[42:48] Uh don't want to annoy my airplane neighbors with a lot of stuff or loud noises, ice shaking. You know what? You know, airplanes are so freaking loud that like airplanes so freaking loud that like next time you're on an airplane. Uh do you remember Sam from uh CNN video's handle Anastasia? He would come to the FCI every once in a while.
+
+[43:08] He did a whole series where he was shaking uh on the airplane. He was using ice and actually just two plastic uh airline cups and using them as a shaker, and he was saying that no one had a problem with it. Yeah, I mean as if I mean the think of what happens on an airplane. People are blowing their nose on you, basically, like you know, like you you can do all sorts of horrible things on an airplane. The sound of shaking a cocktail, I would be like, oh thank God.
+
+[43:32] You know what I mean? Thank God someone is doing something that I like on an airplane. You know what I mean? It's like I don't think it's gonna bother anyone to have a shaking ice on the on the plane. Um so uh and don't want a bartend, would like for people to be able to make their own cocktails.
+
+[43:45] So there, that's why you don't want the shaking. If you don't want people to be, if you want people to be able to make their own cocktails, right? So I would go with uh here's what you have. You have a circulator, you have a chamber vac, you have a spinzall, or should have it by now, uh, keggerator, uh, but you're not gonna I mean in the oh to carb you can't bring carbonated stuff because you're not allowed to bring uh you're not allowed to bring chargers on an airplane. And unfortunately, are the ones in the in the in the life vest CO2?
+
+[44:12] I don't think they are. I don't think they are. I'm not sure. You might be able to get a cracker and to raid the life vest for a charger, but I don't know what gas they use. And you if you did, in the unlikely event of a water landing, you would be hosing whose ever one you took.
+
+[44:34] There is a way, if you bring your own life vest, by the way, you are allowed to bring the uh you were allowed to bring the chargers for your life vest and one set of spares. That said, you know how many times I I once went through a series where I flew a bunch of things and then only found out later that I had a bunch of chargers stuffed into a secret pocket in my backpack and they never found it. So like, you know, I could have been infusing on that freaking plane or carbonating on that plane. But if you were to pull out a charger and the flight attendant was to see you, then you would be spread eagled on the floor with like you know a Marshall's gun on the back of your head. You know, and you know, maybe rightly so.
+
+[45:10] Um average bar equipment home kitchen. So here's the thing, but you're not gonna need any of that. Maybe you you use this spinzall. If you don't want to uh have them shake drinks, what you're talking about is a stir drink, right? Or a built drink.
+
+[45:22] So the easiest thing to do is to just make a really nice syrup for uh old fashions, bring are you allowed to bring a Y-peeler? I think you are allowed to bring a Y-peeler on a plane. Well, you can bring a pack of knife now. Really? Yeah.
+
+[45:36] Regular one? Uh like I I bring one with no blade, I bring a no-blade, but but if you can bring a Coon Recon Y-peeler, here's what I would bring: I would bring an orange or two. I would bring a coon recon uh uh Y-peeler. Uh if you're a a cherry style of person, I guess you could do bring some some cherries. And then I would make, like, if I was gonna do it, I would make out of my book the coriander syrup, like for a cliff old fashioned.
+
+[46:00] But you want Mai Thai, you want tiki. Ooh, see, I'd just do old fashions. So nice. How are you gonna have someone make their own tiki style cocktail? Can't be done.
+
+[46:08] Well, here's what here's what I would do. I would take, I would make a lime cordial so it lasts, right? And so I have a bunch of I gave some recipes I think last week or the week before on lime cordial, especially now that you have a uh because it you what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to do a stirred version of a tiki. So you're gonna go heavier on booze, lighter on the uh on the um on the cordial, but cordial, and then if you really want to tiki it out, uh throw like a splash of pomegranate juice in. You can actually clarify.
+
+[46:34] I have clarified passion fruit and and pomegranate. The issue is you don't want to blend the pomegranate, because if you blend the pomegranate, it gets bitter because the seed parts get blended. So what you do is just buy a passion fruit puree. Just do yourself a favor and buy the freaking passion fruit puree. Then put the pomegranate in a container with it, take a mortar and pestle or like a muddler, smash the pomegranate seeds with Pectanex Ultra SPL, you spin that out, and you can temper that back with uh clary uh lime.
+
+[47:01] You can make a really awesome, clear, kind of um clear tiki-ish, hurricane ish, like uh uh syrup thing out of that, and then just put that into those freaking bottles and then just you know, glugety glug with the liquor on the thing, it'll self dilute on that freaking airplane, it'll keep you going, uh going and going and going and going. Don't forget to add a little salt. What do you guys think? Think that's all right? Or just go away.
+
+[47:24] Why can't you just like mix club soda with something? Right. It's a flight. The guy wants a tiki freaking cocktail. He's gonna wait till he lands, can he?
+
+[47:31] Apparently he cannot. Just get drunk on the plane the old fashioned way. What's the old fashioned way? I don't know, like a gin and tonic and an ambient. Wow.
+
+[47:40] I don't you know what? I'm not a fan of the airplane gin and tonic. I'm a white wine on airplanes kind of a guy. I'm just give me your crappy white wine and keep it coming. Whoa.
+
+[47:51] Nastasi, what's your call on an airplane? Yeah, white wine or red wine. Yeah, because red wine, I feel like it's gonna dehydrate me more, and I don't want to be flying around with the red wine lip stain, and I don't want to go into that bathroom. That bathroom is a horror show. Actually, the last time I flew, I did uh red wine mixed with Coca-Cola, whatever the Spanish call it.
+
+[48:09] Uh what? You never heard of this? No, but I I heard that was a thing, Chris, in China a while ago. It was like Pepsi and red wine, right? Wasn't that a thing like Pepsi and Bordeaux, like uh like 10 years ago in China?
+
+[48:21] I heard it was a thing. I thought it was like a European thing. It's it sounds like a terrible thing. Where no matter where it comes from, it sounds like a freaking wretched idea. Yeah, it'll get you drunk.
+
+[48:31] Not as fast as just the wine will make it last. Well, but these are contradictory statements. Like how much red wine do you need to get drunk? That depends on you, doesn't it? I mean, but the thing is like you don't want to get dehydrated on an airplane, right?
+
+[48:46] So you don't want any like like for me, I tend to feel more dehydrated when I'm having red wine, and so you don't want to get overly dehydrated on an airplane. And like I said, especially on it, I would consider Hawaii to be equivalent to an international flight because of its length. Is there anything more horrifying than an international flight bathroom? Anything? Is there anything worse than like hour eight on an airplane in a bathroom, and like you're like, I made it this far, and everyone else has defiled that bathroom, done all sorts of horrible, terrible things.
+
+[49:18] You've seen that one dude that shouldn't have eaten what he ate and he's used that bathroom like five freaking times already. You've seen him that one guy. And you know that by time two or three, ain't something something ain't right. You know what I mean? Something's not right with this man's behind that he has to use the bathroom this many times and now I have to use it.
+
+[49:37] So I just want to stay away from the bathroom at all costs. Nastasia what's your feeling on airplane bathroom I don't care. Really? You don't go in public that's the thing. Do you have a phobia?
+
+[49:46] He has a huge phobia. I do not like public restrooms. Is it like a germophobe thing or it's not that I'm a germophobe, it's just specifically restrooms. I don't I hate public restrooms where's a social interaction in a restroom? Whereas Nastasia Nastasia doesn't enjoy going to a place unless she uses the restroom.
+
+[50:04] Like Nastasia Nastasia will show up if she comes to your house for the first time people, she was like, where's the restroom? That's not true. She has to use it. It's good to have a plan. When she shows up at a restaurant she's like you know what I'm gonna use the restaurant.
+
+[50:15] Everybody uses the case you're like but you just used it on the bus. Do you not wash your hands at a restaurant? What? Do you not wash your hands at a restaurant? Usually they have a thing outside.
+
+[50:23] You know what I hate is like the the reverse washing hands. If you go into Dave, if you go into a freaking restaurant, right? And you have to touch the doorknob on the bathroom to leave after you wash your hands why don't you just dip your hands and poop? Just hold on you just hold poop hotel is poop to if they have one. That's why hey now all these people are like oh here's a dice in for you here's a Dyson, and then like, you know, just dip your hands and poop.
+
+[50:48] Dyson suck. Whoa, whoa. Don't be the man's a billionaire. He'll he'll fly over here like SWAT will come in and kill you. You should have him on the show I he could talk probably for hours about his vacuums.
+
+[50:58] And what do you think about his uh well he I don't know what he cares about most now? Air blades. Uh he's an air moving individual, right? That's his that's his thing. Moving a lot of air.
+
+[51:09] Moving a lot of air. Um we got like a minute. Ah, Jesus. Um I recently sign off. This is from uh Julian.
+
+[51:18] Uh I recently put a kegerator together and picked up a small half gallon keg and was wondering if you had any recommendations for a good cocktail on tap, uh, which would do well in the Kegerator type system, not degrade too much. Yeah. So uh if you're gonna carbonate it, you make sure to get all the oxygen out so it's not gonna oxidize. So if you're doing something that has a vermouth in it, do it that way. Also, because it's gonna foam like a mother, uh, choose something that works well with low carbonation.
+
+[51:41] Like Negroni is a classic one because it can age a little bit as long as it doesn't have a lot of oxygen around it. It works well at various levels of carbonation and at various dilutions, and so it's a good kind of bulletproof uh drink to throw in that. Um and on that question, uh, since we have we have uh you uh Utah Yao rode in and said, I love making cocktails at home, but can't reliably finish even a 375 milliliter bottle of vermouth. I've been just accepting dumping out a portion of every bottle as a sad fact of the single man home cocktail life. Been thinking of buying a chamber vacuum sealer from my kitchen.
+
+[52:15] Would that be helpful here? Pour half the bottle into a bag, suck out all the oxygen, and throw it in the freezer. How long would you suspect that you could hold it? Also, uh just for Anastasia's uh demographic audience scorekeeping. Yep, another single guy in his forties, no kids, and a kitchen filled with gadgets that reflect uh uh reflect that, including an empty space on a counter for my soon to be delivered spearzall, sears all, spears all.
+
+[52:36] Ooh, my biggest. Single guy, drinking remove. I'm gonna make a spears all next. Imagine that, a spears all? Wow, like a harpoon machine?
+
+[52:43] That'd be intense. Um the issue with uh vacuum bagging is that vacuum, as opposed to a glass bottle, vacuum bags are actually quite poor at um quite poor at uh gas permeability. So you actually get quite a bit of oxygen into those bags versus a glass bottle with a cap. So what I would do is get um like eat like sm like much smaller, like almost like eyedropper size bottles, uh, or you know, 175s or something like this, and pour the stuff all the way up to almost the top, and then screw it down, and then you're good. Uh, and you're gonna be you're gonna be good from uh there on out.
+
+[53:23] So you're not that that's the way I would solve it, because glass is very good uh at gas uh permeability, oxygen permeability. Um that's what I would do. But vacuum bag will work. I haven't run the test to see how long it will stay, but you have to use a vacuum bag that's meant for the freezer and has very low gas permeability. That's the that's the the trick there.
+
+[53:42] And you don't want to boil it too much, so you have to vacuum it when it's nice and cold. Uh okay, so okay, we have Matthew, thank you, Matthew. Uh Chris is here. Chris, what do you want to tell him about uh the units? Anything you want to say on the units on the way out on spinzalls people need to know.
+
+[53:59] No. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[54:24] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[54:55] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:31] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly uh 12 to like 1245, one o'clock from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brook Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[0:58] Good. Yeah? Doing all right? Yep. Got uh Dave in the booth.
+
+[1:02] Hello. How are you doing? Good, how about you? Uh I'm I'm doing well, and I'm happy that uh even though this has been another uh terrible week in the United States of America, I'm glad to say uh, you know, I have some friends here today, so hopefully we'll have a good discussion that is, you know, not about the horrible things that are happening outside of our little container box studio. Uh I'm joined today uh by uh Mandy Aftel and Daniel Patterson.
+
+[1:30] Uh Mandy is the world-renowned perfumer. Is that the correct term? Yes. Perfumer par excellence, who's uh who's kind of, oh, if if if a human has a main thrust to their life, it's that uh she is interested in uh fragrances that are derived naturally, sourcing them, finding them, collecting them, compounding them, using them, thinking about them, writing about them. Yes or no?
+
+[1:58] Absolutely. Yes. Uh and now Daniel's a little more difficult to kind of because uh, you know, uh being in the you know food world myself, I know how everyone hates to be kind of boxed in, but I will say that uh, you know, uh I guess I first had your food at Kwa like a a billion years ago, and then at Kwa again like a you know, half a billion years ago. Uh but you know, Daniel's always struck me as very uh he's one of the thoughtful chefs. So he's one of the kind of uh, you know, um that generation of chefs that just really um to the uh advantage of the food, I would say, uh, is just very thoughtful about kind of what he does, how he does it, why he why he does it, why he uses what he what he uses.
+
+[2:46] Also, uh a serious control freak. I'll tell you guys a little story from Kwa. Daniel's actually uh he was like, so Nastasi and I were on a massive citrus tasting. I think it was a citrus tasting, right, Stas, or was it uh Merle Haggard? It was it was Merle Haggard, I think.
+
+[2:59] It was Merle Haggard. We were going uh back when Merle Haggard was alive. We were going to a Merle Haggard concert so that we could get him to skull. We had this series where we were getting people to drink shots of uh aqua vete and we were taking pictures of them uh you know, before, during and after, which you know someday maybe we'll start again. I don't know who knows.
+
+[3:15] Anyways, so we're there, and uh, you know, we go to the we go to the restaurant and uh after the meal, uh Daniel comes up to me, he's like, uh, so uh how do you like it? He's like, uh, I think I really enjoyed it, which I did. We had this great meal. And hey, well, first of all, he was standing, remember, he was standing, we scolded him, and he was standing, because remember, it was right next to a strip club, and there was that painting of the strip stuff outside. Anyway, so he then he asked me how my meal was last time I was there, which had been like maybe two or three years prior, and was super angry at me that I didn't think that the first meal I had there was absolute garbage compared to the current meal I'd had because and this is super interesting, he had learned so much more in life over those intervening like two to three years, and was mad at me at not being able to discern immediately the extra kind of knowledge, and it just goes to show kind of like uh a person who's always kind of thinking about what they do.
+
+[4:11] Now, uh they the reason they're here, uh not just because you know they want to be here, but they're on a uh a book tour. They just released uh a new book called uh Art of Flavor, right? Yes. It's with uh Riverside, which is River Head. River Head Head, should have written it on a file card for me.
+
+[4:25] River Head, which I can only remember as being apparently, I've been told, the greatest of all the penguin imprints. Like penguin classics are are useless, like piles of garbage, or as Nastasi would say, paperweights and or things to separate. You know, the only thing Nastasi uses my book for is to separate hot foods from cold foods when she's going to uh potlucks. It's the exact smart. Yeah, it's the exact correct insulator thickness and fitting into a tote bag to separate, you know, like a McDLT style hot from cold.
+
+[4:58] So um, yeah, so maybe other penguin books can be that, but this this imprint, not like that. This imprint is great. Yeah. That's all. So this is not the first collaboration you guys have had, right?
+
+[5:08] This is our second book together. Okay, and the first one Aroma. Which was what we did that for with Artisan, and it was about the it it was had real um as it had essential oils as components of recipes for food and for like personal care and fragrance things. This book is completely different. Right, and and both of you, you know, aside from when you're writing together, write apart, like you know, um obviously Daniel, you have books, but also you write for like you've written for the New York Times magazine, right?
+
+[5:35] And uh, you know, do you do like straight up West Coast writing too? Or like I I read you in the New York Times, but do you do all those like evil papers out there on your side of the they don't want me? No. Well you've always had kind of this like weird relationship with San Francisco, right? I mean, like it's kind of it is your town, but I don't know, you like I don't I don't s you've never said it to me, but it you always seems that you are bucking whatever trend happens to be current there at that time, right?
+
+[6:01] It's like you're kind of a no a little bit different, like a little bit I don't know, man. I think you had it right the first time. A little more difficult. Right, you could have stopped this. Yeah, it would have been right.
+
+[6:11] All right. So now uh when you guys are writing together, how does it how does it uh how does that work? Do you like parcel it out into pieces? Do you lump it all together? Are you like, I'll take this chapter, I'll take this chapter.
+
+[6:21] Like how does it how does that work? So the way the book started was um I was at Mandy's studio and we're talking, and she was actually talking about her creative process when she puts together uh a perfume, and it was just very much like like how I think about putting together a dish. And so and he said, Well, you know, we should write a book about that, you know, like we wrote about aroma, we should write about flavor. And I thought to myself, yeah, let's do it. How hard can it be?
+
+[6:47] And that was three years ago. Yeah, no, writing is hard, it sucks. I hate it. Do you like it? I know you do it.
+
+[6:52] Do you like it? No. No, it's uh terrible. What about you, Mandy? You like it?
+
+[6:56] No. But uh one thing one thing I was to say was Daniel and I did really spend like once a week, every week, going over we did do the writing together. There are areas that are much more Daniel's than mine in the book that are are his, like complete chapters. I don't think I had much input in a few things, and a few a few for me as well. But the bulk of the whole book is this combined mind that we had together, finishing each other's sentences.
+
+[7:23] You know, he was really there with me together, the two of us. It was very exhilarating and exciting. See, that sounds like an utter and complete nightmare to me. It was good. So here's what's awesome is that I learned so much in this process.
+
+[7:36] Like I could have never written this book myself, right? So I thought I knew about flavor, and I did intuitively. And uh we got this great quote from Jacques Bocin about how it was like was it the Cartesian theory behind all of his intuitive process, which like was kind of how I felt. And and once you start unpacking like the process of how you think about what you put together, right? So like carrots and orange, they go together, everyone knows that, but no one ever tells you why they go together.
+
+[8:03] And so that was really what the book was about was like a million books can tell you what to put together. But but you know, for especially for the home cook, it's kind of mysterious, right? So so the process by which we we found our way through the book was as much as anything else, not a writing thing, but a structural thing. How do you take something so nonlinear and make it in linear, which is what a book is, you read one chapter, another chapter, another chapter. And the process was that um, you know, we would Mandy would lend a lot of her language that she had developed for perfume in terms of locking and burying.
+
+[8:39] So when two flavors join together to create something that's new or burying where something is very, very strong, and you have to push it down so it doesn't dominate like like rosemary or or anchovies or something like that. How how to think about what the next process is, and what I realized is a cook, and you can probably relate to this, a lot of the decisions we make are compound decisions. So one of the things I realized early on is that a cook does something, it seems like you do one thing, you actually are deciding like three or four things at once. What's the cooking process? What are you adding?
+
+[9:10] Uh, and and then what what is the herb that's going to come later, and all of this stuff kind of becomes one. And so what working with Mandy really helped me with was teasing this out to be able to see with some kind of clarity all of the different steps that happen along the way. Well, so to that point, you know, you I you know I've heard Mandy talk many times about kind of the structure of like a perfume breaking it down into, and I I wrote it in my magical book so I wouldn't have to do it from memory, uh, top, middle, and kind of base notes, right? Uh and then what was interesting is seeing that translated into kind of a cook's flavor thing, and it didn't actually necessarily get translated 100% the way I thought it was going to get translated. So it you know, it it it's either.
+
+[9:55] Well, here really yeah, so it's interesting to me. So you I don't know if you want to spend a minute talking about it in terms of perfume, and then how like that rubric then was applied in the book to food. I will, I will. I just want to make one comment on Daniel's comment first, which is I I was kind of more the research person about you know, researching flavor and thinking about flavor, and I thought for a while, in fact, I asked Harold, you know, can you just tell me where I can find like you know how people thought about flavor? I how people put things together, how what were the uh the ways they were thinking about creating flavor?
+
+[10:27] I I was shocked at how little there was. There was a lot historically about what people use, but not about the thinking. You know, because the creation of flavor is stuff that's moving and dynamic. It's not static. You can't just when you put this with this, then you have that, which reminded me so much of perfume.
+
+[10:44] So in perfume, we talk about top, middle, and base notes. And so top notes are things that reach your sense of smell very quickly and disappear quickly. They often kind of sharp in their smell. And then middle notes have kind of usually more layers to them, and they bridge that distance between the top notes, which reach your sense of smell quickly and disappear and last kind of longer. Then there's bass notes that are usually deep and rich and heavy and come from like roots and barks and heavier things.
+
+[11:13] And so when you're thinking about smells, you're thinking about that kind of shape and dynamic and what they do to each other as they're evolving. So where we came to with we applied some of that to food, which I think is one of the more abstract ideas in the book. I think like bearing and locking and stuff are easier to get your head behind. But you should say the four rules. I think you should, because that plays upon the.
+
+[11:34] Well, but even before we get to the four rules, which we yeah, obviously you need to get to. So like it's interesting. So on a perfume, you know, you have these, how do you contrast like a base note, like you say bark, with more of uh whatever you call them, fixatives or uh what do you think? They are. The the base notes are the fixatives.
+
+[11:52] So base notes are the things that last the longest and they make the perfume stay the longest. They're the heaviest molecules. But on the food side, it translates into the more I don't want to say bland, but kind of like the more overridden notes. So when you transfer it from a perfume where it's literally the thing that's holding, literally, by the way, apparently, according to McGee, I was talking to him, holding the high notes down. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:18] So that they stay there longer. Yes, yes. Um, by the way, whenever she says Harold, it's our good friend Harold McGee. I assume, unless there's another one. There is only one Harold.
+
+[12:27] He's like he's like the Madonna of the food world. So the uh mine too. So the um so in like uh in a food context, Daniel, you're talking more like the beans side of the equation. So like that seems to me to be an interesting, an interesting shift going from the one regime to the other. Yeah, so one way to think about it.
+
+[12:49] So I did a couple of um braised chicken recipes. So the chicken would be because one of the things about the book, there's no luxury ingredients. It's all the stuff you can get at the supermarket. We really want this to be a book. There's like 80, 85 recipes.
+
+[13:03] They're all easy. Because I think that's really important, is if you're gonna show something, you know, you gotta show it in a way that people can actually do it, right? So braised chicken, all based on, you know, basically water, onion, water, uh, you know, but then there's a middle note. So it could be um, for example, uh uh orange, saffron, and then a top note, which could be tarragon, right? So that is a top middle bass where you have your your depth, you know, the thing holding it down, which is the the stew and the all those things locking together.
+
+[13:38] You have this middle note which connects with like maybe a little bit of Anna's flavors, a little bit of orange, and then the the sharp tarragon at the top, which kind of lifts it up, but it could also be with carrots as your bass, right? And then you need a middle that maybe is miso and maybe a top that's like uh like cilantro or something. So it's relative, right? So if you think about playing a piano, anything, right? Uh a musical instrument, you could have a chord where the the C is very high or very low, but the r the relationship between top middle and bass is what's important and not a a static base always has to be this.
+
+[14:14] Right. So conceptually, like going to beans for a second, like if you're gonna go like Mexican, you're gonna have like uh you know, certain ones, like you're gonna have like Oja Santa or something inside the beans. An herb like that, although it's very on its own, I mean, and even if you're if you know it's there, it's very itself. You know what I mean? Um yet it it seems to me to be part of the baseness of the bean.
+
+[14:40] So it's like so mentally, even though something I guess what I'm trying to get to is when you're thinking about it, it seems like it's not just oh, the like the herb is gonna function as a top note in this case, because some herbs can be part of the base aspect of it too, right? So so that what you're talking about is this kind of magical transformative ability that's like kind of at the heart of the the transformative effect of of cooking, which is that some things bind. And so this is a big thing that um and many can probably speak to this more because she was more versed in it uh than I am. But each every plant, I mean all things, but especially plants which have hundreds of aromatic molecules, um they like we we call it nature's the original flavor. So the way that if you look at the composition of an herb is put together, there'll be two, three things at the top, aromatic molecules that are dominant, with a ton of other stuff.
+
+[15:37] But it could be something way, way down that's 0.005%, that makes you know an herb what it is. And it could be that herbs share similar top two or three, but then slightly different ratios. So how you mix things together and how they bind together makes things what they are. So that's just within one ingredient. So each ingredient contains a multitude.
+
+[16:01] So the way we describe it is facets, right? So you have a predominant flavor, but then you have these facets. They could be floral, they could be peppery. But in in the case of the the beans and the um the uh the herb, there's some uh connection that happens with those facets that makes it bind together. So it so it yeah, so it and and and we which we call locking.
+
+[16:25] So it sticks out a little bit on top, right? You can recognize it, but then something else kind of dovetails into the beans and makes something that wasn't there before. And that's kind of like how to anticipate that, how to build on it and how to actually plan for it is one of the things that we tried to talk about in the book. Nice. By the way, call your all of your flavor-related questions in too.
+
+[16:46] 718497-2128. That's 7184972128. So do you want to talk about the four rules of the case? Oh, we gotta call it caller, yeah. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[16:57] Dan. Caller. Hello. Still alive. Yellow?
+
+[17:03] Well, we got another one. Uh caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Hi.
+
+[17:43] First, so let me first some caveats. Are you do you want to stay in the United States of America or no? Doesn't matter. All right. Well, I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Daniel first of all, like I like I've lived in New York since like forever, so I'm a huge New York guy, so I'm gonna step away from my New York microphone here for a minute.
+
+[18:00] I'm gonna let Daniel take this guy. So you're in Philadelphia now. Is that right? You're in Philadelphia now? Is that what you're saying?
+
+[18:09] Yeah. So my personal opinion is that there's good food everywhere. I uh from what I Philadelphia has a great scene and a lot going on. So one thing I would say is, or wonder is how deeply you explored, you know, your own environment. Because I think a lot of people are doing a lot of different kinds of things, not necessarily the things you might see in magazines and stuff like that, but there's a lot going on.
+
+[18:31] And then beyond that, uh I think everywhere has something to offer. It's more like um the culture that you want to live with and the kind of people you want to be around and the kind of people you want to cook for. So those are the things that I I would think about. But no matter where you go, like food is about people, and and so however you connect to people, that's that's like the most important thing. But do you like going to a place that has like major, like in other words?
+
+[18:56] So there's obviously places that are known for having a boat ton of people who are working hard in the in the food industry, right? Like New York, San Francisco, this kind of stuff. You have places that are known for good ingredients. You have places that are known for one particular like style of uh, you know, one particular style of food or one one particular kind of um restaurant tour. But you think yeah, I d yeah, I think it's like you're the kind of guy, Daniel.
+
+[19:17] It's more like it's it's like I like you almost prefer a constraint, right? I mean, like it's it's like it's like he'd r you know rather be like you only have this stick and this fire. Let's see what you can do with it. And so I think w what he's saying is it's almost like your your location is kind of like that. Like your where you are is kind of like that.
+
+[19:38] Now, I will say though that I think it's extremely helpful, not that I get to do it that often, but to travel around and taste a lot of food, go to a lot of places, especially you know, if you come from uh uh like an eastern seaboard kind of reality where you you tend to believe that kind of all there is is kind of what you see in life, it's a huge advantage to go like taste other people's stuff, taste uh other people's um and it is helpful I think to look, you know, who d who's the best at X, Y, or Z. Like I hate to say it, like West Coast is still the best coffee place if you're interested in like learning about what's fresh and in going on. I mean not fred, but you know, in coffee. Did you say it's the best coffee and food place? No, best coffee best place to go to learn about coffee, I was still the West Coast.
+
+[20:22] Well, I don't know, the best place to learn about citrus is definitely in uh right now, I think probably in California. Um but I think it's like if you want to go to a particular restaurant, like I had a guy I used to work with that went out to California to work for you. You know what I mean? Like uh Nguyen, Mikey Nguyen. Oh yeah, you know, years ago.
+
+[20:40] And um I think like it is useful to find someone that you think is interesting and go to work for that particular person rather than working for a particular place because I think you can learn a lot about you know, even in, you know, I mean, I guess the chef and you probably says that you, you know, how long do you want someone to devote to you, like a year at least. Yeah, and you know, but but like I I got out of this day-to-day chef thing a couple years ago, and so maybe my opinions have changed a little bit. But I think the m the most important thing is whatever you do, commit yourself to it a hundred percent. And it's not about a a time, it's about like are you gonna open your heart to this? Are you gonna are you gonna listen?
+
+[21:21] Are you gonna contribute? Are you gonna learn? Because if you do, naturally you'll stay there a long time. Right. I think what do you think about when you get somewhere and you realize that whoever you're working with, you don't respect them anymore.
+
+[21:32] Just get out right now or stick with it. Oh yeah, be honest and and and be polite and just say this isn't the place for me. Give a proper notice, move on. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[21:43] Yeah. Yeah. So it's not necessarily it's not necessarily bad to cut and run. It's bad to cut and run if you're doing it just because you're lazy or uh right? I mean that's the main thing.
+
+[21:53] Like, you know, actually if you're lazy, we definitely want you to cut and run. I can see that one coming. Oh man, that's hilarious. Can I ask caller a question? Oh, should I Can I Can I ask the caller a question?
+
+[22:08] Yeah, that's that's Dave. That's Dave in the booth asking you. Hey, caller, what's your favorite photo place in Philly? Uh still alive? I don't think so.
+
+[22:18] I don't think so. I think we lost them. All right, cool. Never mind. All right, so let's go to uh well if we have another caller, they put 'em on.
+
+[22:23] But like while we're doing the Can I do these? Oh yeah, why don't you tell people what you're doing? Yeah. So when Daniel talked about nature being the original flavorist, I have these little examples for it for you guys, and then you can you know discuss them on the air. So i inside of every we have this thing in the book called the flavor compass, which is really i uh part of my world, which is the aroma essential oil-rich ingredients that people use for cooking that don't really take up a lot of real estate on the plate, but are incredibly important for flavor.
+
+[22:54] So those are the flowers, the herbs, the citrus, and the spices. And people usually turn to those and think of those as something that's really going to create flavor. And I think they often think of them with a very broad brush and a kind of interchangeability. So he made this flavor compass to kind of really delineate the differences in flavors between things that are very near each other, like the differences between the herbs. Because one of the things I had found in perfume is really picking the specific thing you want, like lemon over lime or or basil over tarragon, and then taking that basil and putting it together with another flavor and thinking very creatively about it can completely change what you're doing.
+
+[23:30] Not just any citrus, not just any spice. And also a lot of the spices that make it to the market are depleted of their essential oils. So I'm always very, very keen on telling people to stick their fingers in them and see if their finger smells, like stick their, if they can touch them and smell the ingredient, how important that is. And so in nature, you just gross nostasial, by the way. No.
+
+[23:51] And so well, if you have a clove, I think it's like important to make sure it smells like a clove. So one of the one of the things that I brought for y'all to smell is just within, just within one species like basil, of which there are many different kinds of basil, certain ones are much more spicy and certain ones are much more floral. So sweet basil, which is what most people think of all the time and they use, is has a very large amount of an aroma molecule called linolol. And linolol is kind of, I don't know if Harold's talked to you about linol, but it's very important to him. Linolol is the floral aroma that's in so many herbs.
+
+[24:30] So a lot of times if you're using an herb or an herb has gone to flour, the linololil in there is making it much more floral. So in a certain way, you're already using florals. On the other hand, Thai basil has a lot of eugenol, which is the main aroma molecule in cloves. So I just wanted you to, if you can, just to smell the difference and smell the difference between the two basils, but then about their operating facet, which is what we call it, which would then lock with something else and make your dish more spicy or more floral. So your sweet basil has a huge anise hit like Thai does.
+
+[25:02] Like this has. Yeah, but like globe, the standard globe does not have nearly this much of an anise hit, at least when you're using it as a fresh leaf. Yes, that's a much more anise one. That is a much more anise. Which is why it's so good in drinks.
+
+[25:16] All right. That's a very from a practical standpoint. I mean, because all this stuff, you know, that's it's very esoteric and you're talking about aroma molecules, but the reality is that um, you know, if you know that something has more of a floral component, let's say you're doing something with Myer Lemon and you want to do something with basil, you're gonna pick the basil that has more of a floral component that will lock with the the floral of the Meyer lemon. Or maybe you have something like really sweet and flat, like orange, you might want to take something spicier. So knowing those kind of um components allow for either kind of something that's consonant or something that's uh kind of different, but either way you're doing it consciously.
+
+[25:59] And so knowing a little bit how things are put together, you know, kind of let you also with substitutes for like what's the worst question you ever get when you're writing a recipe? What can I substitute for that? Well, you can substitute this recipe for another recipe. But but I think I think I think most I'm gonna use that from now on. Can I use that?
+
+[26:18] As long as I credit you? That's the cloud that's now the Daniel Patterson substitution. You can s you may substitute a different recipe. I think the whole idea of of thinking about ingredients is having facets and thinking about those facets as locking together is what creates flavor. And just having that key, just having that tool and thinking that way will impact the whole way you think about cooking and the whole way you think about creating flavor.
+
+[26:41] So let me go to your compass for a minute because it's interesting. It's also interesting kind of what you chose because it is part of a specific structure. So like I always think about like what uh what a cook's toolkit is, like where that where are they going? Where's their head at? Like what are they what are they reaching for, right?
+
+[27:00] Yes. Because there's whole groups of people that don't really cook with citrus at all, right? Now they gotta, they unless their food sucks, they have to have some sort of something to brighten it up. But it's interesting that like, and I, you know, like you guys, like I'm reaching for the citrus because I'm you know, I have access to it all year round now, and like it's there even though I live in New York and not in California. Uh by the way, uh the citrus in California is ri freaking ridiculous.
+
+[27:28] Especially the peels, the citrus peels in California are preposterously good. So like the fruit, like you know, like if you like the f it's okay, you know what I mean? Like like if you're gonna get like a pomelo or something like that, yeah, okay. It's like all pith, but like the peels out of California are just freaking gorgeous and smell amazing. You know, you know the peels are where all the oils are.
+
+[27:50] If you stick your finger in I'm always talking about putting I mean I'd be banned in grocery stores. I mean, if I ever was like really successful, they'd see me coming, they'd like say, put up like garlic. But if you stick your finger into the peel of any citrus, you will have the oil right on your fingers. Whereas the juice is different, it has some, but not like the peels. Yeah.
+
+[28:09] So by the way, my grandma used to get the chocolate sample boxes, and she would push her freaking thumb through the bottom of every freaking candy. Love me too. Me too. Me too. To find the good ones.
+
+[28:27] Is there such a thing though? They're all filled with good. Okay, yeah. Yes, there is. But but with chocolate, I don't understand.
+
+[28:33] Like, what's it gonna do? Release the uh aroma? No, you get to find out how hard it is. I I've done this. I am like this.
+
+[28:39] You get to find out what's inside without having to go through the top, and then you can just quietly put it back. Yeah, so you would you I would go and I would turn everyone over. I'm like, grandma! Like, you know what I mean? It's like anyway.
+
+[28:51] Wait, uh Dave, you say we got someone? You want you want to take a quick break and then we'll take a call? All right. Oh, you want to take the caller first since they're on the freaking line? Yeah, all right, fine.
+
+[28:59] All right, caller, you're on the air. Hello. Hi. Hi. I am calling about a question for a wedding.
+
+[29:08] I am calling because I have the great idea. My partner disagrees to have a punch bowl of orbits at our wedding. And since orbits stopped existing about 20 years ago, how do I make my own? Okay, the very first thing I would do is do exactly what the person you're getting married to says to do. Regarding your punch bowl.
+
+[29:30] That's the very first. All right. Uh orbits, uh the the recipe I I don't remember whether Kimos uh published, uh, Martin Lair's published the recipe for orbits, but CP Kelko, who makes gel-an, orbits is a gel-an trick. Uh CP Kelko uh released the recipe uh an um a number of times. What it is is is the the balls are gel-an balls, uh primarily low acyl gel-an balls that are suspended in a very light gell-an fluid gel.
+
+[30:03] And the trick of it is this. The density, first of all, the balls need to be small, uh, and you can set gel-an into very small balls, just like you would drop agar, presuming you have a uh a good enough sequestrant so that and you make the base so that you don't have kind of any kind of free uh calcium in your liquid at all. You can make a straight gel-an ball much like you'd make an uh uh an alginate ball if you wanted to make those things, which I don't. Uh, and then uh the the major, major, major trick here is one, you're gonna want to store those balls in colored fluid until just before the uh of the same relatively isotonic fluid, uh right up until right beforehand, and then rinse them off so they don't bleed into your liquid. And the other thing is the density of the balls has to almost exactly match the density of the uh fluid job.
+
+[30:55] I don't mean the thickness, everyone always gets this wrong. Dan, you notice this, everyone always miss, you know, misconstrues density and texture is the same thing. Density is just weight for volume, texture is how thick something is. So you need almost exactly the same density. So same sugar levels, same everything in order for it to get it to float.
+
+[31:14] The problem with it uh uh is um that if you're just picking up with a with a with it, you can get it to suspend, it's not a problem, but uh the the surface of orbits, so when you drank orbits, you probably drank it out of a bottle, and so you never saw the surface of it in a nice big glass coming up, but it's got a Santa Claus jiggling bowl full of jelly belly kind of a situation going on on the surface. Right. And it's impossible to not have that. They also dope it with a slight, slight bit of Xanthan. So it's a slight bit of Xanthan and gel in.
+
+[31:48] But if if your spouse to be does not wish you to do this, don't do it. Because it's just a nightmare. You know when you should do it, you should do it on your first anniversary. I think I think I can, I think I can get away with this one. All right.
+
+[32:03] All right, man. I'm pushing for it. Understand, look, I've been married, I've been married 22 years now. And like most times that I've said I'm just gonna do it, I regret it. I'm just gonna say that.
+
+[32:15] And you know what I mean? Most of the times when I'm like, I realize that I should not do this. This is not even just in marriage, this is just in life in general. Most of the time, when I'm when I know beforehand that it's gonna cause problems, and I do it anyway. Like sometimes I'm like, no, this is gonna be great.
+
+[32:29] And then like I do it, and like I was like, see, that was great. But most of the time I'm like, man, they were right. I was I should not have done that. All right. Well, um, thank you for the answer.
+
+[32:39] Um I have one more small confirmation of something if I can ask. Chocolate bars better out of the freezer? Uh what do you mean? Like like what well, the chocolate bars are best stored in a low in a low humidity, cool environment. Uh, because the thing is when you freeze a chocolate bar, it's gonna get a lot of condensation on it as it comes up to unless it's like vacuum wrapped or something like this.
+
+[33:05] I don't really know. Do you guys know the effect? Why aren't you eating them sooner? Well, maybe he's getting has a specific one he wants to keep it for the wedding. Like maybe he was gifted some like unique chocolate bar and he wants to save it for the wedding.
+
+[33:19] Wine vacpack, wine cellar, it'll be fine. There you go. Vacpack, wine cellar. Just don't let it go through a lot of temperature fluctuations so it blooms out. Alrighty.
+
+[33:32] Same same thing by the way, coffee. Coffee in and out of the freezer. Highly problematic. Highly problematic. Open it, vacuum it once.
+
+[33:39] Well, you just use it right away. Roast it, use it right away. That's that's the correct answer. All right, so you want to take a quick break? Billy Bills.
+
+[33:45] Coming right back with some cooking issues. Bob Moore is the founder of Bob's Red Mill, top quality supplier of grains, flowers, and general nutritional goodness from Oregon. He's talking to us about their signature millstones, a very specific way of making whole grain flour. So what's the secret, Bob? Follow me into the millroom.
+
+[34:17] Well, these are just like the millstones that the Romans use to grind their grains. In fact, these stones came from the same quarry near Paris, France, where the Romans got their stones. The company that makes our millstones pulls their quartz from the same quarry, and they make mills for us that are just wonderful. Bob explains how the millstones grind much slower and at cooler temperatures than modern steel rollers. The process keeps the grains cool, preserving the flavor and nutrition.
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+[34:51] Look at what they produce. I love how they keep things simple and just right. All the nutrition is there, just like nature in the chat. After almost 40 years in the milling business, they're serving up over 400 organic, gluten-free, and whole grain foods right here from the mill in Oregon, sending them off to destinations around the world. We think we can make a difference by sticking to the traditional way of stone milling.
+
+[35:20] And so that's what we're doing. To learn more about Bob's Red Mill and their mission to bring good food for all, visit Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. And we are back with Mandy Aftel and uh Daniel Patterson. By the way, Daniel, what's the name of that author who writes a million books that has a similar name that writes like novels? What's that?
+
+[35:48] There's a Patterson that writes like a boat ton of novels. James? James Patterson? You ever get confused for him? No.
+
+[35:55] No. There's like famous Arnolds, but they don't do anything. They don't write any, they're like you know, famous musicians. You get confused for a Tom Arnold ever? Yes, all the time.
+
+[36:04] Cool. Um, I wish. That would mean that I was uh confused for anyone. You know what I mean? That would mean that somebody cared.
+
+[36:12] So uh so I want to hit like a couple of pity party, oh little violins. All right, so nice. So um all right, so we're gonna get back uh into uh kind of the flow of the book in in a minute, but I wanna a couple of things. One, I want to talk about the flavor industry a little bit because I know there's some serious issues here. Mandy especially has some bones to pick with them, and so we'll we'll get into it.
+
+[36:36] Uh but one is a recipe that just jumped out at me so hard that I have to talk up to ask and talk about it. And it's carrots and coffee. It's um so it's very rare that you see a recipe where you're like, what? You know what I mean? You're like, what'd they do?
+
+[36:53] And then you like you like you have to go and you have to look at it. So I'll I'll set it up, right? So you get uh you turn on your oven to 350, right? You um wash but do not peel your carrots, correct? Do you dry them?
+
+[37:08] No. It doesn't matter. Do you oil them? Oil them, right? Uh salt them.
+
+[37:13] Now here's you put it into a baking dish, but before you put it into the baking dish, you line the bottom of the baking dish with whole roasted coffee beans. You then cover the dish so it's sealed in effect, which means that presumably as you roast for the next at 350 degrees for the next 45 minutes to an hour or something like that, they're not gonna get too they're not gonna get too dark, they're not gonna lose that much moisture because they're sealed in, right? So uh this this just struck me as like the craziest, like like not crazy, but just like I haven't seen this before. So why don't you talk about this recipe where it like did you did it come from the restaurant? Is it something you guys discussed?
+
+[37:52] What what is that? Tim. So that recipe, um that was a fun one. Uh I was actually cooking with uh Renee Rosepe from Noma Restaurant. It was at my house, it was for uh magazine article in 2011.
+
+[38:07] And there we we did like, I don't know, 15, 18 recipes over two days together, and and at one point uh we'd bought a squash, right? A winter squash, a small like turban squash or something, and and Renee had in his hand, and I was at the coffee machine because we were both drinking coffee constantly. And and and so I was grinding coffee and he looks at me and he said, What do we do with this? And I don't know, I just looked at the coffee and I looked at I said, Well, coffee and he and then he said, Why don't we bury it in coffee beans? And so we did, and it was pretty magical the way that the coffee infused into the squash.
+
+[38:40] So then I took that back and started roasting. Uh I thought, well, how can I adapt this? And so uh we did it with baby carrots. And and and then Renee went back to Noma started burying things and in spices. So the general idea of burying something and roasting it in an aromatic environment is um uh is kind of magical because what happens over the time is that the the softening of the fiber and the and the steaming that happens creates this um this environment in which the carrot, which is kind of sweet and earthy, locks with the the coffee, which is earthy and bitter, and it creates something that's neither carrot nor coffee.
+
+[39:24] So these things happen all the time, but this particular one was just like crazy. That's the definition of locking right there, which is where you put two things together, and you very simple two things, and that their aroma and flavor locks together to create something that's just fantastic, it's very simple. You ever notice being a locking and steaming these together that people like a lot of times nowadays omit the citrus allium herb inside of a chicken when they roast it, even though it perfumes the entire meat? You ever notice that people kind of say I feel people have been skipping that recently? They don't put anything into the bird to let the aromas come through as they roast.
+
+[40:05] But doesn't it take an extra like like 30 seconds? You go into your fridge, you're like, I have a you know, a line, chak chack, boom. It's a different kind of coming together, that kind of locking. I agree with you. It's it's perfume.
+
+[40:18] It's kind of like bleeds over into my area. It's perfume. So how much carry of the coffee into the uh carrot is there? Like a lot? Yeah, so it's really interesting because literally the carrot and the coffee both lose their individual identity to become something else, right?
+
+[40:36] So the chicken that's stuffed with your your thyme and your your citrus, what's gonna happen is you have a roasted chicken flavor that has this under layer of this perfume of citrus and thyme. In this case, those two things merge completely and give up their individual identity to create a new identity. So that's something that's fundamentally different. That's like cola. Yeah, exactly, like cola.
+
+[41:02] No. Yeah, cola is cola is yes, yes, exactly. That's exactly right. But which it was true in your fantastic exhibit. But that that's a thing that goes on in perfume.
+
+[41:11] You know, a lot of times in perfume, there's this idea of, you know, can you pick out the notes? And I think I've always thought that was kind of who cares. I think when something comes together, it becomes chalamar, it becomes Chanel number five. Shalomar, what's up, 70s? Or it becomes this really fantastically flavored roast chicken.
+
+[41:32] That's what happens when you create flavor, and that's a concept that the two of us put into the book to kind of be a guideline of something to think about. Nice. My mom used to use shalomar. So tell me about the cola. So cola is, and I'm gonna get it wrong, but like uh one of the things we did at the museum, we worked with a flavor house, so we're gonna get to get into Mandy going anti-flavor house in a minute, but it was uh so uh forget which which cinnamon relation it is.
+
+[41:58] It's like it's probably coffee. Yes, yeah, acasia, like, but all actual essential oils. I know. Like uh lime, oil, orange oil, cinnamon, and van and vanilla, right? Are the and there's other ones too that, but those are the four bases, and you smell each one of them individually, and they don't they don't actually smell like they're referent, because essential oils we should probably also talk about, don't always smell like they're referent.
+
+[42:14] That's true. You know what I mean? But uh especially I think citrus oils don't smell a hundred percent like they're referent because they're not they're not expressed right then. They must change or something. I don't know.
+
+[42:33] Some are cold pressed, some are distilled. The cold pressed and distilled are different. The cold press smells more like the referent? It does. Yeah.
+
+[42:39] And so distilled or cooked. Right. So then but you press all four together and you're like, oh, cola. And it doesn't smell like any of the it doesn't smell like any of the ones individually. And interesting, there, they're all actu they're actual product.
+
+[42:51] The ones we were using are actual products. They're not like uh they're not synthetics? No, right, they're actual products. You know, coke was also in coke, as in cocaine was the other one thing in there. Well, you know, when you're get up and go is got up and went.
+
+[43:04] And that's you know, uh, when when did that when did that when did the cocaine drop out of coke? I don't remember, but it was a quite a quite a while. But there's a lot. There's a lot. It was done in a pharmacy.
+
+[43:15] Yeah, well, you know, it's like uh done in a pharmacy original. As you point out, a lot of these original things were kind of uh, you know, medicinal. A lot of that really only survives in the in the drink realm. Like a lot of the old like medicinal drinks, which taste frankly horrible, like are uh, you know, are now revered or liked for their taste. That's you know, I was talking to people about things in general.
+
+[43:38] You learn to like what you like. Things that taste horrible the first time you taste them, for some reason you learn to crave them. I still haven't figured out. I've talked to scientists about that who are like, yes, I have an explanation, and I don't know whether it's because I've been drinking, but I can never remember an explanation that I can give to somebody else to say why things that are kind of uh strictly speaking horrible, like why we end up craving them so much. Yes, but but that's different.
+
+[44:02] So that's how flavor connects to experience, right? So what you smell and taste connects to what you you you feel, you know, and remember. So that's just kind of how we're hardwired, right? So that if you if if we get together once a week and we have this great time, we eat something that's really not very good, but it's it's surrounded by this feelings of of love and contentment, right? Ten years from now, you might be looking back at that and saying, I love that dish.
+
+[44:27] You don't really love that dish. What you really love is the what it created, but then those two things merge over time. So in fact, you actually do that. Right, like like twinkies. Like straight up, they're not really well-made cakes, but I like them because they are twinkies.
+
+[44:42] Yeah, I mean, think about like the the um, they did this great um test back, I don't know, oh, quite a while ago between wine, right? So you blind taste wine and people say what they like and don't like, and then they do it again the next day where they can see the labels. And of course they like it's like the Coke Pepsi thing, right? Of course, they change their their opinions. But what's really interesting was they tracked brain activity.
+
+[45:04] And so the part of the brain that that registers pleasure lit up with one wine when it was blind and lit up with the other wine when it was because of a brand. So it's not just because things taste good, it's because of all of this other stuff going on in our brains. But what we try to do in the book is to kind of take it out of the cultural and and larger context and bring it down to like what is flavor, how does it act? Because the other stuff, the cultural stuff and and what you're talking about, man, there's a lot of books on that. You know, you know Dana Small out of uh Yale?
+
+[45:36] I used to talk to her. You guys should talk to her. You'd you'd enjoy it. She does she does a lot of like uh MRIs of people while they're tasting and eating and like seeing how that uh affects what's going on. Interesting stuff.
+
+[45:47] So your next book, should should you should you ever uh choose to write another one? Um I could go on forever for the stuff I read, but well, let's get to the the part. So they got the four, what are the four main rules? That happens about midway in the book, right? The four four main rules you have for working with and they seem they they s I'm gonna sp spoil a little bit, it's like a lot of yin and yang.
+
+[46:11] Don't go. Yeah, which is how like life works. You're like, you know, don't go too much that way, don't go too much that way. But you know what's really interesting? So we we reached a lot of these moments in the book where we're like dead end, dead end.
+
+[46:25] You know, we rewrote this thing so many times, like it's a miracle it even got published. And there's one moment where we couldn't figure out this bridge between one place and another. So I went back and I looked at all my old recipes. I'm like, why did I do that? And and those basically everything I've ever done is one of those four things.
+
+[46:43] Now, these are primary indicators of direction. They tell you generally where to go, but not specifically. So the the the something like the um flavor compass will tell you, should I pick lemon or lime? These tell you I need to brighten it. So the the idea so the rule number one is if things are close together, let's say potato and leek, that's kind of that's comforting, it's wonderful, it's kind of boring.
+
+[47:08] So they need something to to spark them, something that's different. Counterpoint. It needs a counterpoint. Black olive, anchovy, whatever. So I'll give I'll give the four rules here.
+
+[47:17] Similar things need contrasting elements, that's one. And since I already said that spoiled in the balance, contrasting elements need unifiers. Need a bridge between them. Heavy things need a lift and light things no. No.
+
+[47:27] Okay, you mean heavy. Heavy. Yeah, heavy things need a lift. And light things need to be grounded. Those are the four main rules.
+
+[47:41] That's that's it. But you know what's interesting is that like a lot of times where this hits me is like, so for those of you that have never, I don't know, had to write a recipe or come up with something specifically for an event, like literally typically you have like a set of parameters, what you're working with, and you think out the dish first, and then you mentally think about this stuff ahead of time. But what's interesting is a lot of these rules are applied after you do your primary mental work. So you're doing your primary mental work, you have the main structure, you're like bah ba, and you're like, ah, that needs some Zaz, raw onions on top. Uh, that needs ba, hit it with some zest.
+
+[48:18] You know what I mean? So it's like, oh, this hit it with some cream to bind that sucker together and drop it down. But like, don't you find that a lot of those rules like almost always you're applying that after you've already gone through your main mental structure of figuring out what's gonna happen, or no? I mean, like you you think about them all the way, you never want to go out of balance while you're cooking, but it's always at the end I find that you correct in things like that. I have a I have an answer.
+
+[48:43] I mean because I just taught perfume this weekend, and I applied the four rules right while I was teaching. I think it doesn't happen at the beginning, but I don't think it happens at the end. I think it happens midstream. So I think you start in, and that's what we were really trying to do is stop the dance. If you think that making flavor is a dynamic that's taking place, no one stops, stops it, stops the motion to think about it in the middle of it.
+
+[49:05] They just get to the end. I think that happens earlier on, where you're starting in with the potatoes and the leaks, you've got that, so that's ahead, maybe ahead of it, and then you think, what am I gonna do with this? But you're not totally at the end yet either. So it's kind of stopping that thought process long enough to be able to have something to hold on to and think about, particularly if you're like standing at a farmer's market, standing in a grocery store and thinking, okay, I like this and I like this, but what am I gonna do with it? You haven't started cooking, but you're cooking in your head.
+
+[49:32] So Dave, let's let's cook a dish right now. Okay. Give me one ingredient. Nastasia, pick an ingredient. I don't know.
+
+[49:39] Pick an ingredient. Squash. Okay. All right. What kind of squash?
+
+[49:44] Go, Dave. What kind of squash? Like a freaking zucchini or like a freaking butternut squash. So what kind of freaking squash? One is garbage and one is good.
+
+[49:51] You're giving me zucchini. How about that? Sorry, Daniel. Now what are we gonna do with this piece of garbage? Okay, so you gave me zucchini and.
+
+[50:00] Yeah, zucchini is garbage, unless you're making bread out of it. I'm getting I'm giving you back uh bacon. Oh, you give me a bacon. Now what? Wait, so we're gonna use zucchini and bacon together in the back of the country.
+
+[50:11] You got two minutes, Dave. What? Look at your watch. I don't have a watch. Someone turn the clock away from me, Dave.
+
+[50:18] Uh wait, so zucchini and and bacon. Uh I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna blend all this crap into a soup. I'm gonna cook onions, I'm gonna make it into a soup. There you go. And then, but then you've you've created this thing, and then you're thinking about cooking, right?
+
+[50:31] So you're like, wow, the zucchini really doesn't taste like much, so I gotta take some of the water out of it. So I'm gonna roast it over high heat, right? Before it goes into the soup, and then I'm gonna think about flavoring that liquid, right? So I'm gonna take onion and bacon, cook it together, add maybe a little white wine, maybe water, and then I'm gonna put this concentrated zucchini in, right? So then you get to the end, you have something that has a little more power, but it's kind of dark and deep, right?
+
+[50:55] So it needs something brightenings are gonna do lemon zest. Maybe you're gonna say, I'm gonna take raw zucchini, I'm gonna mix it with, you know, uh black olive lemon and uh and and and then a shitload of herbs, and I'm gonna drop that in the middle. And then I think I want a little bit of lactic something, right? So a little crumb fresh around it. There I have a dish.
+
+[51:13] And so that's really you add a crunchy element? I always like a crunchy element on the top of my side. Oh yeah, but I mean I think the the theory. How about the backup? I don't know, it's already.
+
+[51:21] Oh, wait, wait, wait. So the whole section of the book we haven't talked about, and that's like where you get to the synthesizer section of it or the mixing board section. And we skipped the flavor flavor industry too. Well, and well, we'll talk about it again today. But uh, I should also mention that uh in a perfumer's art, like they have what is the it's it's they use the language of music.
+
+[51:39] It's called an organ, right? Yes, where you keep keep all of your sense. So why don't you talk about that kind of like final synthesis of the of the book at the end of like operational. The seven dials. Do the seven dials.
+
+[51:51] In one minute. Sweet, sour, salt, bitter, add umami, add fat, and add spice, like as in chili heat, right? So when you get to the end, the dish is almost done, but it's like a song that hasn't been mixed down. A little bit of salt, a little bit of lemon, uh, maybe you need some fat to round something out. And this is also how you fix things.
+
+[52:12] You get to the end and it's a little bitter, it's a little sweet. This is how you bring it into your own language, into your own style. And so the last chapter in the book is about how to use these things and how they interact with each other, that salt pulls up acidity, pushes down sweet, all of that kind of stuff. So that last chapter is like A, how do you perfect things, and B, how do you save things? Because that's really most of what a cook does.
+
+[52:34] So what's the most unsavable thing? If you burn the gravy. And that's where we learn about burying. Okay, so listen, we didn't get to have our knockdown drag out fight about the flavor industry next time. But thanks Mandy and Daniel for coming on the book is the Art of Flavor.
+
+[52:49] It's put out by River Head Head Press, the the greatest of all penguin and prints uh thanks for coming guys. Uh see you next time on Cooking Issues. Thanks for having us for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website heritageradio network.org connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[53:29] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:31] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing?
+
+[0:57] Good. Got Dave in the booth. Also good. And everybody's favorite punching bag, Peter Kim. He has a knee brace.
+
+[1:08] Well, by the way, Dave. There are a lot of people who come to MoFad and will say that they listen to cooking issues. And they'll come over, and the first thing they'll do is they'll introduce themselves and say, hey, you know, I'm a big fan of cooking issues and mean to come to MoFad. The second thing they say is, you're the punching bag of the show, huh? And then they punch you.
+
+[1:31] That's right. Hey, listen, you're not allowed to actually punch Peter Kim, I don't think. Unless he like invites you. Taking a stand. He's gonna like he's gonna end up being like Houdini.
+
+[1:41] He's gonna have some sort of like uh, you know, latent appendicitis, and someone's gonna punch him when he's not looking, and it's gonna be a nightmare. And clearly he's prone to medical problems, right? Oh, yeah. Uh well, yeah, he's got a he's he's got a little bit of a gimpy arm today. What do you what what do you have here?
+
+[1:53] Too much uh It's extreme emailing. He's got galloped of the hand. Peter Kim, by the way, uh ex-lawy, you know, I used to I used to have like paralegals finger from all the hitting copy, copy, copy. You ever used to you ever used to make your paralegals do that? Of course.
+
+[2:11] Did you respect your paralegals at all? What yeah, of course. You did not. You're a liar. Oh my god.
+
+[2:15] Speaking of respect. Oh, Chat Room says you should offer to take punches for fundraising for MoFed. Oh that's on the table now. That is good. Okay, so chat room, this is something you might not know.
+
+[2:27] It does not hurt. So uh speaking of paralegals, you know how like when you're in a law office, you get you don't just buy reams of paper, you buy like pallets of paper and they're in those paper boxes, right? They're in those yeah. So the papers come like many reams to a box. But anyway, the lid of a copier box is an amazingly satisfying thing to hit somebody over the head with.
+
+[2:48] But it doesn't hurt that much. So I like we used to think that what we would do is we had this one really, really strong guy in the law firm that we would just go down into Grand Central with a bunch of these boxes and allow people to smash them over my head for like five bucks. And then, you know, if someone got out of hand and wanted to swing a punch, then like the large gorilla-like person would just you know crush them into a small cube. But you know, then maybe you could do that. Doesn't get hurt, that doesn't hurt so much.
+
+[3:11] Yeah, sure. I'm down. But it's impressive sounding. Like when like when the when the box like smashes over your head, it sounds like you're doing something. Yeah, my dad who had issues with me leaving this legal career to start opening this museum, will certainly be puffing his chest up with chest up with pride to learn that uh this is my latest fundraising scheme.
+
+[3:29] Are you referencing the old uh Uncle Jemima Pure Mash Liquor cartoon uh commercial that uh Morgan did for uh Saturday Night Live back in the day? No, I'm referencing my actual dad. All right. Who hates you? Uh as well he should.
+
+[3:43] I'm sure Nastasia, if he knew who you, he would hate you as well. No, actually no, he likes Dawson. No. Okay, then okay, there you have it. Uh speed of which Nastasia, on the way over here, I was listening to Boston.
+
+[4:02] And Nastasi and I have a long-running thing with we both like Boston, the band. Uh this has nothing to do with this the city, but like both of us like We made the mistake of wanting to learn more about them. Right. So I don't know whether we mentioned this. Dave, we've mentioned this on the show before, Delp.
+
+[4:17] Uh I can't recall, no. Well, the lead singer, Delp, who is a normal heighted person, but just look short compared to Delp is his last name. What's his first name? Last name, okay. I don't remember.
+
+[4:26] Delp. Anyway, he recorded his sister-in-law in the bathroom, a la uh Chuck Barry. No, I thought it was in the bedroom. Bedroom, bathroom, some sort of a horrible like invasion of privacy. And then Oh, without her knowledge?
+
+[4:42] Yes. And then uh somehow his I guess his wife found out about it. Anyway, so he he took his own life, but in kind of like a terrible way. He like plugged up all of the doors of his room and lit a bunch of hibaches and just like smoked himself to death. Oh.
+
+[4:57] Yeah. So he can't think of it. And Nastasi and I are like, that's not like a that's a give up your whole life, move away kind of a situation. Not a kill yourself. It's a it was we can't listen to the music the same way anymore.
+
+[5:08] Because it's kind of like just it's kind of a downer way to start the show. A little bit. So on a more positive note, uh last night I went to uh the WD-50 pop-up down there on uh Front Street. Good. You know, is it doing all of his because his new book the new book is coming out.
+
+[5:24] Uh in fact, it's out I think next week. Uh check it out. Uh it's you know, I don't know whether it's all the recipes, but it's like a huge portion of the recipes from WD50. They're actually from the restaurant. So if you ever you know decided that what you really wanted to learn how to do is make Wiley's knot foie, which by the way is not like cannot like K-N-O-T as in foie gras tied into a knot.
+
+[5:45] Uh it has, I think, also the dessert recipes, so not just the savvy recipes. Check it out. It's uh, you know, it's one of those things that's like $75 on the Amaz on uh retail, but I think Amazon's got it for like 40 or 50. And it comes in its own box. It's one of those books that comes in its own box.
+
+[6:00] What do you think about books that come in their own box, Nastasia? I see a pizza with greens today. That is a completely unrelated fact. Completely unrelated. Uh also out uh now or coming out right now.
+
+[6:13] This is the season of books. By the way, Miraville, Nathan Mirville with his bread book was uh on the uh at the museum. Well, is it a six volume? Oh, nanny nanny nanny poo. It's like, yeah, it's the same size as like modernist cuisine, but it's modernist bread.
+
+[6:27] And it's it's same price too. Yeah. 500 and change bucks. And his and his uh employees carry it around in a nuclear resistant case. Oh, yeah, the new the new case is metal.
+
+[6:37] Why what why do you do you say why he did that? Were they having problems with acrylic cracking or something in the last one? So, and uh just so you guys know if you uh wish to know more, which I'm sure you do, I know I do, about uh modernist bread, uh you can check out a series of podcasts here on uh Heritage Radio, hosted by none other than uh our man Turkell. Is that true, Dave? What is the name of this podcast?
+
+[7:00] Modernist Breadcrumbs. So episode one is out now on the Heritage Radio Network website. Episode two is coming out uh next Wednesday, and then every Wednesday thereafter we'll do one episode a week. But uh this Wednesday we're releasing the talk that Nathan did with Michael at MoFed. Yeah, so uh I spoke to him after the talk, and what we're gonna do is is we're gonna wait for the the book to be out for a little while, wait for you know folks out there in the community to generate their questions, and then we'll have uh Mirvold on the program and you can ask him all of the questions about the book directly.
+
+[7:33] Make sense? Makes sense. I hope they have a section on sandwiches in the book. Oh yeah. Why would they have a section on sandwiches?
+
+[7:39] That's an entirely different bread. It's a book on bread, not a book on freaking sandwiches. Although I think they have a pizza section, obviously. Yeah, but bread defines sandwiches. That's true.
+
+[7:47] I mean, do you have a section on like air quality? That defines everything, right? No. Like you know what I mean? Like, no.
+
+[7:53] Like what's the What? What is it? Just because you make a sandwich out of the bread doesn't mean you have shaking our heads in sort of squinting right now. And not following that Trumpian logic. Whoa!
+
+[8:04] Whoa. Whoa, not a not this is not the political show. This is not the political show. Oh, yeah, that's in the works. Well, uh uh kind of in the works.
+
+[8:12] Someone get me some freaking guests. Nastasia, do you know any political people? For the tenth time, no. Peter, do you know any political people? I don't know.
+
+[8:21] You don't know if you know them? I I don't think about it. Don't think about it. Bad people. Uh another book coming out.
+
+[8:28] Uh Pete Um Jim Mehan Peter. Jim Meehan's uh new uh bartender's manual book is is uh coming out. I saw an advanced copy. And even though there's a picture of me in it, it is still a very good looking book. It's like a very, very pretty book, beautiful book.
+
+[8:44] Uh, you know, uh like In spite of you. In spite of me. Quotes from uh bar people and bartenders and bar owners, plus you know, Jim's insight uh from years in the business, plus recipes. Super pretty book, super awesome. Uh I would check that out.
+
+[8:58] Anyway, so Peter, what do you want the show to uh put push out here? No, well, we've got a lot of good programming going on at the museum. We had uh Nathan Miervold last week. It's too late for that. It's over.
+
+[9:06] Okay, okay, we got stuff coming up. It's over. I tell them about crap they already missed. All right, fine. So we have mean.
+
+[9:12] The time it's taking for you to interrupt me and harangue me is basically, yeah. I mean, anyway. So uh we've got a natural wine tasting this evening at the museum. Tell them what natural wine means. Well, it's I basically relying on natural.
+
+[9:26] Wait, you think he doesn't know? No, I think that's not a good thing. No, I think it's one of those words that like we all kind of know what it means, but it really has no meaning. Right. Anyway, so go ahead.
+
+[9:37] Yeah, sir. Anyway, uh we have a program on Chilean gastronomy with uh chef Rodolfo Guzmán uh tomorrow. What about what what what's going on with that? What's the one? So he's got the he's he's one of the top chefs in Chile, and he's gonna be talking about this new book he just released.
+
+[9:51] We have some recipes we're doing from that, some cool stuff. Um we've got a food trivia thing next week and a program on the cuisine of Istanbul. Oh, food trivia? Like what kind of food trivia? Can you do a banana grams night?
+
+[10:04] That's a food. Well, I don't know. You can't have only banana. Yeah, but can't have banana grams or just about food. How do you limit it to food?
+
+[10:10] Yeah, because it's a banana gram. Oh, that's region stuff. No, let's wait for the new bar to wait for the new bar to open, and you can come have your banana gram tournament. The whole thing. So, what's this trivia thing?
+
+[10:20] What is this? Is this like a we do a trivia thing once a month now? It's been really successful. So it's about Istanbul? Who makes it?
+
+[10:25] No, no, separate. So our staff does. So it's not food trivia about Istanbul, which would also be a good thing. No, no, no. We have a food trivia thing.
+
+[10:32] You should use a little bit of a marks game. They have all the trivia food questions in there. All of them. Every single one of the things. Every single one you can ever think of.
+
+[10:40] They paid a lot of money for it. I'll give it to you. Uh then we have one uh program on the cuisine of Istanbul. What about it? There's a woman in Robin Eckertz.
+
+[10:49] She had a cuisine on the sorry, a book on the diverse cuisines of Turkey. And so regional cuisines, life in the villages, cities, farms, and high pastures of the lesser known provinces throughout Turkey. What's she gonna make? Is she gonna make some stuff or is she talking about it? I don't know if there's gonna be food at this one.
+
+[11:02] I have to say, I really I like I wish I could go back to Istanbul. I really, really, really loved the food there. I thought it was really good. Yeah. Um and then we have uh our friend Jeffrey Porter from Batalia and Bastian's hospitality group doing a Kianti wine tasting.
+
+[11:18] By the way, uh anything he does, he's gonna bring wacky crap that you can't have anywhere else. Or he's gonna at least yeah, that that's been my experience with him. He always has interesting stuff coming in, so you want to check out whatever he's doing. Yeah, so if you go to programs.mofad.org, you can find all that and get tickets. And how like how much do those tickets cost, roughly?
+
+[11:35] Uh it's a good thing. What's the range? It's so over and under, Peter. I like 10 to 30, 35. So basically, like less than it should cost.
+
+[11:43] So it's basically a bargain. You should go to these things. Absolutely. Yeah. Peter.
+
+[11:48] Dave. All right. So uh for the oh, you if you have questions, you can call them in to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Next week we will not be here, Nastasia, because I will be in China.
+
+[12:03] I will be at the Canton Fair trying to research uh suppliers for the next product that's coming out. Uh, you know, post spinzall. Uh it'll be what is a moisture management system. That's my whole life is moisture management system. That's my whole life.
+
+[12:18] So, Stas, what do you think? Like uh year and a half, the next one? Um, sure. You shoot for a year and a half on the next one. And it'll actually be three.
+
+[12:26] If it's three years, I will not bring it up. Write this down, chat room. I will not be alive if it's three years. Realistically, uh if it takes three years, I will not be alive. Are you gonna go delp on us?
+
+[12:29] One can hope. Uh no, I would never hibachi myself. What? You're supposed to be happy by 50. That's four years.
+
+[12:43] Yeah, so ish. Alright. I'll never be happy though. That's a lie. Like you tell yourself it's gonna get better.
+
+[12:50] That's true. I want to not be dealing with some of the crap that I have to deal with on a regular basis. Anyway, uh this is Nick, Nick Wong wrote it. Yet Nastasia and Peter were pointing to themselves when I was saying I just don't want to have to deal with some of the crap that I currently have to deal with. They're like, he means us?
+
+[13:04] I'm like, not just you guys. Uh Nick wrote in. Uh and and a shout out to Nastasia, to myself, to Dave in the booth, and if he's there, also to Peter of overcooked and underseasoned. Oh yes. We talked about that on the air, right?
+
+[13:21] Just say it one more time. Peter Kim goes to guest. Peter Kim, guest, not even paying for his own food. Dave, did I mention he wasn't even paying for his own food was being paid for? Oh no, I know.
+
+[13:33] But listen, if if I say yum, then you know I mean yum. If I laugh at a comedy show, you know I find it funny. Family show. Freaking. Yeah.
+
+[13:42] And then uh no, but Peter Kim's this guy, this kid. How do you like our favorite restaurant? Overcooked and underseasoned. The lights dim. Everybody stops eating classic.
+
+[13:57] Classic Kim. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like even bringing out all the hits to the case. You know what the thing is, Nastasia, like Nastasia does bring out the worst in Peter, though.
+
+[14:07] It's true. It's true. Like Peter. There's this dark energy that flows from her. Well, you know what it is?
+
+[14:12] Because it's like all the small talk and pleasantries that you do with people to be nice. It's like around Nastasia feels ridiculous. Because she hates that. She hates it. Well I can tell that you're not being you.
+
+[14:24] Yeah. Well, no, no, that's not the case. Anyway. Um. So uh he writes in, Nick, this is Nick.
+
+[14:31] Always had this issue when dealing with dry aged beef. We would get in the uh 109 ribeye. So 109 ribeye is a specific like uh cut. So it's a uh, you know, it's a a cut you can order that's one of the standard US cuts, the 109, it's the whole kind of ribeye with a certain kind of trim on it. Anyway, uh we would get in the 109 ribeyes, and after trimming off uh um dry age them, after trimming off all the desiccated parts and portioning them, the two steaks on either end would inevitably be a little more dried out.
+
+[14:56] Not really an issue to cook the portions from the middle, but the end pieces after being cooked to proper temp would look to be undercooked and show more of a rare color. It didn't happen every single time, but it happened enough to pique my interest. I'm guessing it's an issue with the air interacting with the myoglobin on the end pieces, but I'm not sure. I know the steaks have been cooked to the appropriate temperature, but sometimes it's hard to explain that to a guest that it's actually okay. Uh you suggested covering with fat during aging, but I don't have control over the meat during that process.
+
+[15:25] Is there any way to try and control uh that a little better, uh besides flashing the sliced meat in the oven to manipulate the color? Meat uh is not cooked to low temp or in a bag. Huh. That's a really interesting problem. So you know, I've done like a lot of work with the color temperature of meat, uh sorry, the m the the color of meat cooked to to particular temperatures in bags and out bags, but I've never thought about the um end-to-end variation based on dry aging.
+
+[15:54] I I I don't know what it is. It could be that it could be the lower moisture content is doing something, or it could be something you're saying. Typically, exposure to more oxygen would make it look less rare. In other words, like even long-term uh exposure to oxygen would make it look less rare than it would uh otherwise, because you would either be um you know you wouldn't be well, exposure to more oxygen would cause it to be in an oxidized state, which would be redder, true, but would denature faster than if it was in a deoxygenated state, so it would look cooked faster. That's just been my experience.
+
+[16:35] But I don't know, it's an interesting problem. I would like to hear from anyone else out there whether they've noticed this, whether uh dry age meat tends to, and the more the more dry it is, whether it tends to um uh take longer to lose its uh rare color. It's interesting problem. I have to think about it. Might be a moisture issue.
+
+[16:52] What do you think? Any any of you guys, not your forte, but you have any thoughts on this? Forte. I'd like to talk about air quality. You're a low-quality individual, Peter.
+
+[17:01] Uh what I meant was it's an unrelated thing. If you like if you if you're talking about sandwiches, like, is it a book about like meats? Is it a book about cheeses? Is it a book about vegetable toppings? Is it a book about the main problem of sandwiches, which is people uh making them too freaking dry or not getting the bread to uh product ratio uh correct, or using a bread that's too crusty for the sandwich that they have involved so that you sit there chewing on it and like can't even get the the bolus of bread down?
+
+[17:29] Is that what the book's about? No, it's about bread. Now, I'm sure they dealt with the best varieties of bread for a sandwich. Maybe they had a couple sandwiches in there. That would be a section on sandwich, it would not be a section on a sandwich, it would be a section on sandwich bread.
+
+[17:42] Do the pe you know, the people who make sandwich bread, do they make sandwiches? No. I feel like the cooking issue site needs to have a little barometer of the Dave irritation level. And Dave, Nick just texted and said that he's still waiting to hear Jen on the show. And we've all been waiting.
+
+[18:01] And he said it's been two years in the making. So well, invite her on. I mean, she's busy, she's working. You know what I mean? But you know, she's doing architecture work.
+
+[18:10] But uh, you know, yeah, we'll invite we'll invite her on. Maybe she can redesign the studio. Uh yeah, with the big budget that we have anyway. Pizza. Um free pizza, that's what we're paying for architecture in.
+
+[18:25] Yeah. Pizza. Erin writes in on sterilizing. Uh for the census, I'm 28 male married, and I have an immersion circulator. I've listened to your show since before the long break in the podcast.
+
+[18:35] When was that? We had like a couple weeks' break? That was in August, which is normal. Um, can you let everybody know that the Sears all's on back order? We'll talk about that in a minute.
+
+[18:44] Bring it up afterwards. Oh, Jesus honest. It's not, it's not. It's not. Um fake news.
+
+[18:50] Fake news. Fake news. No one called anyone a moron. Fake news. Love the show.
+
+[18:56] The question might fall into the category of cooking adjacent or perhaps just issues. My wife and I are expecting our first child around Thanksgiving. Hey, congratulations. Awesome. Um while doing research on bottle sterilizers in big quotes, I found out that they're simply steamers with no pressurization.
+
+[19:12] Coming from a lab, the term sterilization probably means something different than to uh home applications. No, it doesn't. If you're buying a sterilizer at home, a real one, right? Like the one that if you like, let's say you live out in the middle of nowhere and have to perform surgery on yourself or like dental equipment, those are real pressure sterilizers and pressure canners are also can be rigged up as uh sterilizers. But there are people out there who at home take sterilization seriously and for real, and those people get real sterilizers.
+
+[19:39] Anyone that calls a uh steamer, a sterilizer is a low-quality individual. What they must mean is that steaming is enough to kill whatever is going to be on a bottle because it's not going to, it's not, they're not planning on having uh spore-forming bacteria that can um, you know, and you're not planning on keeping stuff in uh in an anoxic environment. So you're that's must mean what they uh what they mean. But that yeah, no, normal people outside of a lab, when they say sterilize, should mean sterilize and not just pasteurize and or kill vegetative cells. And I hate it when people don't use those kinds of terms precisely because someday someone's gonna get killed.
+
+[20:19] Anyway, uh my question if baby bottle sterilizer is simply a steaming compartment, what would keep me from spending this money on, say, a nice big all-clad pot with tiered steaming basket, which I could then use for one uh steaming uh making pasta, two steamed buns, three steamed veggies, and four baby bottles. Am I a bad future father for wanting a nice new kitchen thing so close to the birth of my firstborn? No. No, I mean, look, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, Aaron.
+
+[20:46] Your your life's about to change rather dramatically, so buy yourself something now. Like buy yourself something now. As long as you're not gonna bankrupt yourself, yeah, get a nice pot. Like, why would you want something that's just pe like baby stuff is you already have to buy a bunch of like, you know, like very specific baby stuff if you're gonna be um having a kid. Like I'm sure, I don't know, but like if you're anything like uh, you know, we were you're gonna have to buy this expensive, you know, pump, breast pump, you have to buy all this stuff anyway, right?
+
+[21:14] So why not get yourself something as long as you have the cat? What do you think, Stuzz? Don't know, don't care. You don't care? Why do you not care?
+
+[21:21] Because I don't have kids. Oh, so you can't see this is nostalgia. No empathy for empathy. Yeah. This is what this is like I have no empathy for people.
+
+[21:29] That's what you think is. No, I don't care about this subject, actually. What the hell is wrong with you? I don't know. I just I feel nothing for you.
+
+[21:37] Wow. I'm telling you the truth. This nostalgia's like this, I hope they know that people like this is the kind of what you had to do. Somebody is having a baby, right? Why is it that to do with just having a baby?
+
+[21:47] You can't have any empathy for anyone going through a change in their life at all. Even just because you have to live with a bunch of people your age who are having babies and you are sick of hearing of their babies, you can't have empathy even like for someone that you don't have to sit and listen to their story because they're not actually in the room with you. I could fake empathy right now. You want me to do that? Oh, jeez.
+
+[22:06] But you see how the overcooked and underseason came out. I mean, this this is the this is the the the vortex of evil right here. Right. Right. You can't help but get sucked into that.
+
+[22:17] And I say treat yourself. Oh my god, treat yourself. Is that a reference from uh Parkson registration? Uh registration. Parkson, yeah, good.
+
+[22:25] Treat yourself. Peggy wrote in, hey team, quick question. Will it spin? Will the spins all turn yogurt into instant lobne? Well, not instant, it takes about 15 minutes.
+
+[22:34] But yes, you can do it. Uh it's one of my favorite applications for the spinzall. Um you just gotta be careful when you uh load when you load it in. If it wobbl it's gonna wobble as it starts up. If it wobbles too much, it'll go into flashing mode.
+
+[22:48] You might need to start it a couple of times, but yeah, it's one of my favorite uh applications. Wait, seriously. What is Oh wait, yeah, Nick Wong is on the chat room and he wants to know if the C R Zol is on back order. Nick. Wait, Peter, what were you gonna ask?
+
+[23:01] Oh no, no, I'd actually want to hear about the Sears all being on back order. It's not on freaking back order. I think I'd like to know the story too. Wait, back order something. Okay, so people, once and for all, I'm gonna say this one more freaking time.
+
+[23:11] Here's how this works. Booker and Dax, Equipment Corporation, came up with produced the spinzole. Sorry, Searsol. Torch attachment. Turns your torch into a handheld broiler.
+
+[23:27] Awesome for parties. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Booker and Dax owned them and sold them on Amazon for a couple of years. Amazon.com approached us and said, Hey, Booker and Dax, we are uh trying to get into the uh low temperature sous-vide cooking space, and we're going to push your product, and so we want to buy them in bulk, and we will just pay you for the whole load net 90 days.
+
+[23:58] And you will make less money, but we're gonna sell a lot more of them. They lied because they don't really care about it. And by the way, they're Amazon's amazing to deal with as a customer, but as a as a vendor, they're like uh a nightmare, complete nightmare to deal with. Such that like, like if someone calls you from Amazon and says we want to sell your product, just be aware that the minute that person hangs up the phone, they have quit. And another three people have entered their job, right?
+
+[24:24] And then when you call a person again and try to get another person on the phone, as soon as you have hung up the phone, that person has quit. And there will be another person who picks up the phone. Somebody told me from Amazon, one thing, and I called back to say this guy told me this one thing, and they said he has been erased. Yeah, and we're not talking, by the way, people, I know what you're thinking. I know what you're thinking.
+
+[24:45] We're not calling the call center. We're talking about Amazon Corporate is calling us. Not Amazon's like call center where it's like, you know, uh a thousand levels of separation between them and Bezos. There should be like a levels of separation between the person you're speaking to and Beezos. By Bezos number, yeah, my Bezos number is is 85.
+
+[25:04] Yeah. I have 85 reports between Bezos and myself. And by the way, 30 of those reports are a computer program. Right. So like it's but let's make it clear.
+
+[25:14] Amazon owns these Sears alls. We cannot go into an Amazon thing and take them out. No, Amazon physically owns them. So Nastasi and I made the horrible mistake, which we will never make again, of not owning any of them ourselves. Every single existing Searsol that is not personally owned by a person right now is owned by Amazon.com.
+
+[25:38] Amazon has in their warehouse 2,500 of them. Okay? They have another 4,000 in their possession on a boat that they own that is traveling on the ocean from China. Right now. Right now.
+
+[25:58] Okay. They own 4,000. They've already been handed to them. They are on their boat. They own 2,500 that are in their warehouse.
+
+[26:08] Yet their computer thinks that if they start selling them, they will eventually run out. And so they do not want to sell them. And it's been this way for several months. Too long, didn't read Cyrus Alzheimer Backorder. Peter Cameron.
+
+[26:24] Peter Camp. Now what were you gonna ask me for? No, no, I was just gonna ask for your definition of instantaneous then. Instantaneous in-that's not the answer to that question. Yeah.
+
+[26:29] Instance. 15 minutes. 15 minutes, right. So instantaneous. Yeah, so what's your what's your window on instant?
+
+[26:42] I mean, I mean, are we talking in cooking, instant means like 30 seconds. That's instant. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like by the the time it takes you to perform an operation and you can't perform another operation because this one happens so fast, that's instant.
+
+[26:57] Anything that's longer than that is not instant. In geologic time, it's instant. You know what I mean? But in cooking time, 15 minutes is not instant. It's fast.
+
+[27:07] You know what I mean? Faster than going to the store, especially because your store probably doesn't have that product. But anyway. Uh do you disagree? Huh?
+
+[27:15] That's fair. Nastasia doesn't care because it has to do with other people's palaces. That's not true. I I care about this one. Well, yeah.
+
+[27:24] Elizabeth Wells writes in. Uh I hope this is the correct email. It is. Um how much fat is absorbed by food of uh various slash any type, but specifically regarding meat, when cooking sous vide. I'm sure temperature plays a part, but there are there any generalities one can make.
+
+[27:40] I'm a personal chef and occasionally have clients who are overly concerned about such nutritional issues. Well, the good news is meats absorb on a scale of like they don't but they absorb practically nothing. They absorb practically no uh fat uh at all. And in fact, if you dry it off, like almost nothing. They have very few crevices.
+
+[27:59] Now, things that are battered, things that are breaded, things that are porous, like veggies, these things absorb oil like the end of the world is coming. But uh, which it might be. But the uh yeah, meats have very, very little fat absorption. They're very little uh is actually uh sticking to it, and a lot of it has to do with whether you tell it off, and you're more likely to um add more when you're doing a sear off than is happening with it. So it's not affecting the the nutritional um value of it that way, I would say, at all.
+
+[28:30] Peter, do you have an end of the world plan? No. My end of the world world plan? Uh I can't talk about my end of the world plan. Why not?
+
+[28:37] You don't want other people to gangster. No, it's it's it's scary. What is it? Why would it be? I'm not gonna tell you about it.
+
+[28:42] You're just gonna drink yourself to what is it? No. I there's two people. There's one the ones that are proactive, like you and I, and then there's the ones that drink themselves to death. Yeah.
+
+[28:51] I mean look, how's the end coming? What's that? No, well, there's there's there's there's two, there's yeah, there's two, there's two scenarios, right? There's the problem with the nuclear scenario is that it's a 15-minute problem maximum. Right, you got no time.
+
+[29:05] Right? So the only answer is to hope that they miss by a little bit and to get into a subway station if you live in New York City, right? I mean, you know, you don't have time to get out, nothing. You know what I mean? Uh what's but if you're if it's not nuclear, like nuclear.
+
+[29:19] I think the real thing is reading the warning signs and just you know getting the heck out of a concentrated area. You know what I mean? Before mass panic ensues. I should not talk about this. This is like a bad when I was a kid.
+
+[29:30] When I was a kid, I assumed, I assumed. In fact, I didn't want to live in New York City when I was a kid, because I assumed we would die in a nuclear holocaust. This was during uh, you know, Cold War times. That was my assumption, my base assumption. I would sit as a kid with a compass because I was one of those kids that liked using compasses, and I would draw radius maps around like lower Manhattan and figure out where like my house was in New Jersey, then look up the blast radius of various size hydrogen bombs, and be like, oh, you know, I'm dead.
+
+[30:00] And then my dad was like, don't worry. They have these things called MERVs. And so what happens is they actually just send a ring of hydrogen bombs around your whole city. So actually the blast radius is much larger than your calculating. It's like, thanks, Dad.
+
+[30:14] Thanks for that. One of the things you told me is it's gonna happen on a clear day without a cloud in the sky, because that's the whole thing, and there was that cloud in the thing, but then they bombed Nakala. Oh, in the real life. So in the real life, when you know the United States was the, you know, dropped nuclear weapons on um on Nagasaki, there the original target was another town, Nigata, and they flew over it, and they had very strict orders to they wanted a visual um read on it, and they wanted to be able to like you know photograph everything and they wanted visual run on the bomb site. So there was a cloud, literally a cloud, over the actual uh target site.
+
+[30:52] And they did a couple passes over the town, and the cloud cover didn't clear over that one site, and so because of that, it was not the city that got bombed. Nagasaki was a city that got bombed. Crazy, huh? You're forever gonna think about that. Isn't that weird?
+
+[31:07] Wait, so Peter, what are you gonna do? Nick Wong says he's gonna pull a delp. Oh, too long, Nick. You gotta light a hibachi. That's true.
+
+[31:15] No, he says Peter's gonna pull a delp. Oh. Peter would be sitting there lighting a hibachi and trying to jam the stuff when the thing hits. It's too late. Besides, if you're gonna go in a big ball of fire, like might as well not do smoke inhalation.
+
+[31:27] Might as well taste delicious. Anyway, I uh I'm uh you know, get I'm a I'm gonna try to survive at all costs, kind of. Well, of course. I mean, I thought you meant you know the world is gonna end. But there's a chance they can miss.
+
+[31:40] There's lots of things that could happen. Uh yeah, then survive, of course. At all costs. Well, most of Nastasia's friends are go to the roof of the building with a drink. Anyway.
+
+[31:49] On that note, should we take a quick break? Let's take a break, we'll come back with fewer nuclear warriors. Apocalypse issues. Bob's red mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm.
+
+[32:15] The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's gonna grow into a plant.
+
+[32:36] It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour.
+
+[32:56] When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it.
+
+[33:21] Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains. Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com/slash podcast. Boof, poof, poof, boop, poof, k. So Nathan uh Mirvald had some interesting things to say about uh bran. He was saying that like it actually is like better at at uh reducing the volume of uh bread than anything else.
+
+[33:46] And he including broken glass. Broken glass, well, and fiberglass, and like ball bearings, uh they tested when they were doing it. So I can't wait to read the read the book. Should be interesting. He also put the smack down on any nutritional claimed nutritional benefits from whole grains.
+
+[34:01] Oh, shocking. Wait, Nathan Mirvald was against if a false nutritional claim. Shocking, shocking. Um yeah, no, they're they're you know, uh a lot yeah, that whole crew is like that. Anyway, uh, but wait, so what were we talking about?
+
+[34:15] Oh, we have a we have a caller, right? End of the world. Oh yeah, there's calling. All right, call her. Hopefully, this is not an end of the world question, but if it is, we'll take it.
+
+[34:21] Uh well, let's let's just keep hoping that people avoid the big red button. Yeah. Uh but um so my you were just talking about Mirvil's new book. I actually have a uh bread question. All right.
+
+[34:37] Uh I am I have finally arrived at a sourdough bread recipe that my wife actually likes. But I'm trying to get a little more lift in it. So what what did she not like about other sourdoughs, and what does she like about this one? Um what I did with this one, um I actually just used the pizza pizza dough. I've been messing with another recipe for forever, and it and she just never liked it.
+
+[35:07] I mean, I tried more of this, less of that, every iteration of it you could think of. And it never worked. But so um she's liked my sourdough pizza dough recipe for a very long time. So I just put that put that in a bread pan, let it rise and baked it, and it actually came out really good. Okay, but you just want more lift out of it?
+
+[35:30] I just want more lift. How sour is it? It is it is sort of medium sour. The recipe calls for an enormous amount of actual sourdough. Right.
+
+[35:44] Um, and if your sourdough is um perk is perking well, it will um uh it will raise it then in a matter of like three or four hours. Right. I mean the the issue obviously, so if it's pizza dough, it's probably uh a fairly high hydration, right? And the other issue with it is is that if it's the so more sour it is, the kind of more slack it's gonna be because the um acidity is going to um the acidity is going to weaken the gluten structure, right? So I'm guessing it's some combination of of those things.
+
+[36:28] Um I don't know whether I don't know how strong a flour you're using, but I would maybe move to a a stronger flour. Uh like try to, but if you like the flavor, you like the flavor. So the acidity level kind of i is what it is what it is. I would move to a stronger flour and or maybe dope it with um with gluten, see whether that is helpful um to get more uh rise out of it, mess with the hydration a little bit. It's been a long time since I've noodled with those things myself with my own hands.
+
+[36:59] It's you know, for the past I haven't been baking seriously in probably 10, you know, 12 years, probably since when Dax was born. Pizzas, yes, but like I don't I mean, pizza is serious business. I don't want anyone to get mad at me about it, but in terms of like um, you know, Steingarton used to say the crust is the most important part of a pizza, everything else is just garbage. But the uh he said that. I mean, I don't think he's necessarily 100% right.
+
+[37:23] But it it's structurally easier to get a pizza, obviously, because you don't need the rise and lift and all that stuff. Uh any I don't know, does anyone in chat room have any advice on this, Dave? Uh I'll check and get back to you. We'll check. But I would try I would try those things.
+
+[37:37] In general, I think uh, you know, getting a nice uh high lift out of a sourdough can be somewhat challenging the more sour it is just because of the acidities effect on the gluten. Epoxy method is being suggested. Wait, hey Siri. Oh my god. I know, I I was wondering.
+
+[37:53] My phone thought I was asking it a question, and so it's about the end of the world. No, about gluten. Siri was looking something up on the web, nothing. She as usual, she found nothing of interest. At my brother's wedding, my mom was going off in the car and was like, I can't take your father.
+
+[38:08] I can't take I can't do it. And I guess Siri was listening and she said, When you can't, you can't. Really? My mom was like, what? Really?
+
+[38:16] Did your did your mom erase Siri off the phone? No, isn't that weird though? Yeah. Oh, by the way, yeah, Nastasia was uh in Portland for a wedding. How do you think?
+
+[38:24] Joey's wedding. Good. That's her brother. How was the how was the food? Good.
+
+[38:29] What was the food? It was uh pasta and short ribs and mashed potatoes. Double starch? Double starch. Pasta and mashed potatoes.
+
+[38:37] Yeah. You made fun of me endlessly for a double purchase. That's normal with my brother because he doesn't eat stuff. Doesn't like condiments, doesn't like lots of stuff. That was big in Cameroon.
+
+[38:48] You get dishes where it's spaghetti, rice, and then tubers. Wow. A little saucy. Starch on starch on starch. Yeah, it's right.
+
+[38:56] But with Nastasi, what do you get mad at me for? Protein on protein? A chicken breast and a hard boiled egg for dinner. What's wrong with that? So that's the chicken and the chicken.
+
+[39:05] It's chicken, two forms of chicken. What's wrong with that? It's weird. And it's one of those things. Salad is mayo and chicken.
+
+[39:14] It's chicken bound with itself. By the way, Peter loves a gas station egg salad sandwich. Oh, I do. So back to the sourdough for a second. How is it?
+
+[39:23] So if we go to the side. So wait, so do you think any of these things are going to help you? Well, I mean, the um, I mean, the gluten thing is really easy to try. I keep gluten around because I I put it in my um noodles. I I have a uh a Phillips noodle machine that just makes really, really good uh ramen noodles.
+
+[39:44] It can be um a little difficult with like softer noodles, but uh with a really high protein uh mix in it, it just makes beautiful stuff. Yeah, I would try for the higher I mean like I've never done uh I've never tried to get around the fact that sourdough has like uh reduces the um uh like the strength of the gluten by adding more, but I mean it's like something I would try. The other thing, obviously, is doing less pitch, so pitching less of the sourdough into it. Um and obviously you'll have a less sour tasting uh bread, but the structure of the bread's gonna the less so the less sourdough starter you use, and the fresher the sourdough is, right? So in other words, like if you if you had an old sourdough that had a like a lot of acidity versus like you know um like refreshing it and building it over the course of a couple of days by you know a a couple of additions and um and doublings before you did it in will kind of lower the acidity, increase the um activity of it, and then you'll have to pitch less, you'll have a longer rise time, but it'll be a slower, uh a less acidic product, and that'll have better structure because the more sourdough you have in there with the old uh product in it, the kind of more it's not just the gluten's gonna be uh, you know, um weaker, but like everything's been kind of eaten, eaten down a little bit.
+
+[41:07] Um and so I would bet uh the less of the starter you add, the kind of better your your overall uh end structure will be. But if your wife doesn't like the taste of it that way, then she doesn't like the taste of it that way. You know what I'm saying? Well, the times this has succeeded, it was with very, very fresh starter that I've been feeding twice a day religiously for a week. Yeah, right, because it's you know, it doesn't because that it's new product.
+
+[41:31] So your your your bugs are going great, but you haven't broken down the substrate that much, right? I mean that's like the you know, so that's like a key, but that's kind of a pain unless you're baking every day. It's kind of a pain in the butt, you know what I mean? Well, it is, and I mean I'll I'll keep it going for two weeks and then I'll lose it, and then it takes it takes it five days to you know really reboot, right? And that's just sort of a little cycle in my existence.
+
+[41:52] Right, I know, and I think that's why most people tend to use instead of like actual sourdough, I think most people who don't can't do it every day, tend to do more the um like very small amount of yeast, very long rise time, uh, you know, kind of an approach um instead, just because it's easier to predict a day before you're gonna bake than it is to predict like you know, a week before you're gonna bake. You know what I mean? Well, and I and I and I've experimented with that endlessly. And she it she likes it as she likes pizza when I do it that way. She does not like bread when I do it that way.
+
+[42:28] Anyway, we should all read me we'll all read the modernist bread book and uh we'll revisit it when we can when I finally get a hold of it. That's on my Christmas wish list, I can assure you. Otherwise, anybody will buy it for me, not maybe another question. Well, you know, I don't know what Amazon's gonna sell for. 560, uh what do you think they're gonna sell it for?
+
+[42:44] Like 400? 300 and change? Wiley's book is a $75. I think it's gonna be an Amazon at like $50. I don't know.
+
+[42:52] Who knows what is an Amazon basketball? I'm afraid to ask. Yeah. Um two quick comments on some things that have been on the show recently. You had a guy talk about making stock in an American pressure canner.
+
+[43:05] Right. I do that semi-regularly. And by far the best way I have found to make chicken stock in it, especially from a yield perspective, is to put nothing in it but chicken feet and water. Oh, you like d the chicken feet? It's like a hypergelatinous uh and it and and then pressure cook it to death.
+
+[43:29] I mean, like for at least like an hour and a half. I usually go two plus. You you don't have to brown anything, you don't have to mess with anything. It's just just put it in and cook it. I will try that.
+
+[43:42] Yeah. And the other the great thing about it is that I get a higher yield than anything else I've tried that produces a stock that good. What are the chicken feet look like when they're done? Can you even dry them and fry them, or are they so gone that you can't even dry them and fry them? I have I have not I have not tried, but I mean you know, two hours at 15 PSI, they're pretty they're pretty far gone.
+
+[44:07] Yeah, yeah. I I'm a fan of the pressure cooked, dried and fried chicken feet. The feet don't tend to reabsorb a lot of the moisture. When I make when I make it with random bits, I've accumulated in the freezer or for or with whole chickens, which I do sometime when I'm in a when I just like need a batch. It seems like I don't get enough volume of stock back out of the total mix.
+
+[44:32] Like too much of it stays in the meat. The chicken feet, that problem just disappears. I will try it. I like I like chicken feet. You know who loves chicken feet?
+
+[44:42] Booker. Nice. He's back on eating chicken. It's the original chicken finger. Do you like chicken feet, Peter?
+
+[44:49] Yeah, I like chicken feet. You know what you have you ever had the pressure cooked ones? Um don't know. I mean, the advantage of the pressure cooked one is you just eat it. You don't have you're not stripping it off or like gumming the stuff off.
+
+[44:59] You're just eating the whole damn thing. Okay, I haven't done. The problem with it is that pressure cooked bones, even when they're edible, my issue with them is they still have that little bit of a kind of a calcium-y thing. Do you like that? Yeah, I like bones.
+
+[45:12] Really? Booker likes bones too. Alright, hold on. I got another question from can I just make an amount announcement? Oh my god.
+
+[45:18] Like I've said many times before, one question when you call in. One question. This is the hammer. This is the fish. Or we end up on hammer phones.
+
+[45:26] This isn't a phone call, a personal phone call with Dave. This is a show. Oh my god. Nastasia's just like in a mean mood all day. Do you want do you want multiple questions?
+
+[45:36] I'm sorry. Do you want multiple questions? Nastasia's like jumping on me. Do you want to do that? Multiple methods.
+
+[45:42] Let me finish this question, multiple question lady. I recently made Kenji's, uh, that would be Kenji Lopez Alts, Ribolita three times for clients of mine. Uh the first and third time I didn't use Parmesan rind, but the second time I did. What are your thoughts on Parmesan rind, Peter? Uh Parmesan rind.
+
+[45:58] Parmigiano Reggiano rind of cheese. In my mind, that's probably not the best part of the cheese to be using. Well, that's what they use it for soups typically. Yeah, but you know, it's kind of like dioxidated flavor, too. Does Cesar Chesrae do that shit?
+
+[46:10] Stuff? Don't know. Uh anyway. Uh the first and third times I did not use the rhyme, the second time I did. That time the finished soup smelled overwhelmingly of vomit.
+
+[46:20] Like straight up cheese vomit. Uh I stored it in core containers and left it for the client anyway, crossing my fingers. I returned to that client's house two weeks later, two weeks later, to find a container of the soup still in the fridge, and the vomit smell was gone, and there were no client complaints. So I think I'm good. The ingredients were practically identical all three times I made it, other than the rind.
+
+[46:37] The uh uh Parmigiano rind sold in a package of many rinds together, didn't have any off smells. I've used other rinds uh in the package in other preparations with no vomit smell or anything odd. What gives? Thanks so much, uh Elizabeth Wells. Uh, you know what?
+
+[46:50] I think I think it a lot of things that are breakdown products can go vomity, especially I think if there's kind of uh acidity in it, so it gets that kind of vomity note. I think a lot of, I don't know if you had acid in the in the ribolito or if this one was particularly a little more acidic, but like cheese, especially very high breakdown cheeses, which Parmigiano is because it's aged for a long time, has a lot of protein breakdown in it. Um uh fat breakdown, all of that's like can give you some vomity smells. Uh do you have the Nastassi? What are your thoughts on cheese vomit?
+
+[47:24] She actually has a smile on her face thinking about cheese vomit. She's got oh she's she's got that. She's got that murdering everyone smile. Nastasia's got a Nastasia has a smile on her face. That if you see the smile on her face, it means she's contemplating everyone's death.
+
+[47:41] Maybe Dave wants multiple questions on the calls. No, you weren't, you know, you were thinking I'm gonna murder all these people. Nastasia's got the whatever. But uh butyric acid. That's the um cheesy vomity chemical.
+
+[47:52] Yeah, yeah. Known in the flavor industry as having both the cheesy and vomity note. Wait, what's well what are you what are you grumbling over, Nastasia? Nothing. Wow.
+
+[48:01] Wow. Wow. Yeah, Stas's rules. Number one, I don't care. Number two, I do care.
+
+[48:08] Only one question. Yeah. Uh okay. So uh Tom, and I'm gonna pronounce it exactly as though there's another Tom who wrote in a charcuterie question, but we'll get that when we're adding. This is what this is, Nastasia.
+
+[48:21] If you like, let me get to it. Uh but uh Tom also wrote in a charcuterie question, but I'm saving that. Johnny Hunter wrote in and said he'd be willing to do a charcuterie show. We should get, you know, him and maybe someone, but should we wait for him to be in New York City or should we do it over the phone? It's better when they're here.
+
+[48:35] Alright, so we'll wait for him to be in New York City. So next time Johnny's in the city, we'll we'll do something. So Tom, and this is how you pronounce his name, Mel Yuransa. See? Uh hope this is the right email address.
+
+[48:51] It is. Uh one of the best things I've ever done with a bird in the kitchen is Ken Hom's Chinese American turkey with rice and sausage stuffing. Uh even though the meat came out a little dry, the rice stuffing is freaking awesome. I'd like to make a chicken version of this disc and I want to optimize it. Whenever I see optimize now, because we've been talking about vomit, I see vomitize instead of optimized, but they're different words.
+
+[49:09] Nice. Optimize, vomitize. Uh optimize it. Ideally, I want nice rendered skin, moist meat, and tons of that delicious stuffing cooked to a safe temp, but I'm not sure how to make it happen. I'm thinking of boning or is it deboning the bird before stuffing it would uh look cool and allow for more stuffing, uh, avoiding Hom's tricky step of stuffing the rice under the skin.
+
+[49:27] I have a circulator and I'd be open to ordering some meat glue if you think that might be helpful. Anyway, what would you do if you were meat? Do you ever do rice stuffings, Peter? Oh. Just because I'm Korean American, come on.
+
+[49:37] Of course. No. No. Why don't you ask me? I used to make because you don't like cooking this kind of stuff.
+
+[49:42] You don't cook whole birds. Yeah, you do like cold chickens. Well, you do? I do. Really?
+
+[49:47] You ever do like a rice stuffing? No. You ever make dolmas? Nope. So I think you ever make dolmas, Peter?
+
+[49:53] No, they're made dolmas. Dolmas are delicious. Although I do wonder what other uses of grape leaves there are. Grape leaves, you know, like Greek grape leaves. That's the only thing I know in the world that uses grape leaves.
+
+[50:02] And you can do like the rice and meat. Is that the same thing? Yeah. Anyway, the point is that if you're looking at the recipe, the way it's been the way it's done is that the duck is steamed with the rice in it. And the rice is like soaks up some flavoring from the mixture, but also it's steamed as though rice is.
+
+[50:19] And so like you can steam regular rice, you can steam sticky rice, although sticky rice always is steamed this way. And if you do uh if you're gonna do a chicken, you don't want it to get as cooked, right? On the steam aspect, I think you could probably, if you were gonna like keep it open or bone, steam it from underneath and get it to steam, but I would cook the rice almost through and stuff it hot. I think that's the that's the kind of uh key, is almost cooking the rice through with the flavors and then put it in and then letting it gather the last of its juices from the chicken on the inside. And I think that would be kind of the major win.
+
+[50:56] So the reason I brought this before is if you're making dolmas, like you can uh parcook or you can like uh pre-fry the rice and then get some absorption in and stuff it in kind of parcooked. I think that might be the way to way to do it. It's gonna take a little fiddling around to figure out exactly how much so that it's not like totally overcooked, but that's uh that's kind of a good way to go. I gotta wrap it up. Wrap it up.
+
+[51:18] Uh all right. Well, we got we got questions on the spinz all, we'll get to uh later, I guess. In that's not all back order, right? No. No, it's not.
+
+[51:28] Well, it's right now it's available only on Modernist Pantry. Uh do they have their units in it's in the units are in the country. Are they shipping? No, I don't think live yet. They'll be shipping live within probably a week or so.
+
+[51:39] Uh the units are in the country, and then we're getting the next big order in sometime at the end of uh October. But yeah, keep on spinning, cooking issues. Nice. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[52:04] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[52:32] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:30] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill dot com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:58] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking is just coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is going to be here today, but she's not here yet because our favorite, the L train, is of course effed up today, right, Dave? That's what I hear.
+
+[1:32] Usually I have less problems with uh than the Q, though. Yeah? Well, do you have to take the L a lot? I do every day. So usually the Q is your problem?
+
+[1:41] Yeah, yeah. I have to take the Q. I have to I have a stupid commute. I have to go into Manhattan and then back over to Brooklyn via the L. That is big dumb.
+
+[1:48] Can't you just take that uh train of all train, the G's? It like that goes around in Brooklyn all the time everywhere. That would just be an insane no, that would that would take too much time. I think you can tell by his voice that we have Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave?
+
+[2:00] I'm doing good, other than the mass transit problems. Yeah. How's your week, Ben? Oh, it's good. Yeah, I had around.
+
+[1:59] Just kind of getting started, actually. Really? I had a rather eventful week, but I'm not gonna talk about it until Nastasia gets here so that we can, you know, have a. I don't rate. Well, no, I mean I thought all three of us maybe could have the conversation.
+
+[2:15] Because I was in China, I was in Manila. You know, yeah, you know, doing the stuff. Uh so I'll wait for her to get back to talk about that. Uh in the meantime, you can call your questions in too 7184 wait, 718-497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[2:30] So uh big news in uh b big bad news. I my bad good, mean okay. So the Harvey Weinstein um uh scandal has you know, as you know, Dave spread and uh into the food world recently. John Besch, uh, you know, from the Besh restaurant group, uh, you know, most prominent in New Orleans had to step down. I did not hear this, actually.
+
+[2:52] A couple days ago, um, allegations of um uh I I didn't actually get a chance to read ex you know exactly what the allegations were, but be basically improper sexual contact slash uh harassment slash perhaps assault. Uh so he stepped down um and I think it's the first you know kind of big name chef that we've heard this happen to. And uh at the time, you know, at the uh one of the things I read is that you know, the person who's heading up the group now that he stepped down is is you know going uh to all the staff, which you know you should, and and she's saying uh, you know, please please always feel free to step forward, please feel comfortable to uh you know, say something if something happens to you. If you you see something, please feel flee feel comfortable doing so. Um my message to you know, anyone out there who's a professional is don't wait for uh uh this kind of thing to happen in your restaurant or your bar or your restaurant group.
+
+[3:52] Go out there and now, like at your next staff meeting, take the time, you know, when when we start our bar, you know, this is gonna be a big part of our our staff training. Go out there now and let everybody know that they you know that it's that everyone in your restaurant and bar finds this sort of behavior unacceptable. Let them know that you know that they are going to be taken uh seriously and treated with with respect if they if they come forward and just make that a part of your culture and do it now before it's uh too late and you haven't done it, right? That makes sense, right, Dave? Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[4:27] And it's also just you know the right thing to do. Yeah. Anastasia uh Hammer Lopez is is now here. We're talking about uh John Besch. I did not hear or read.
+
+[4:36] I heard a little bit. All right, well, you know, we'll talk about it later since we already talked about it on a. For real? Spreading rumors, sorry. Oh my God.
+
+[4:45] I mean, that's a different industry. But you know, look, uh one of the things that the primary things, at least in in the in the bar and restaurant industry, is a lot of people hide behind uh hide behind alcohol. I think that's one of the big one of the big issues, right? You mean they blame it on alcoholism? Oh, no, not alcoholism, but they didn't they didn't mean it, they were drunk.
+
+[5:04] Right, right. No, no, yeah, right. Yeah, and uh and uh you know that's just not act that's not accurate. Yeah, incorrect. You know, uh alcohol is not alcohol is not an excuse uh, you know, when you hit someone with uh a car because you chose to get drunk, and alcohol is certainly not an excuse for sexual assault under any circumstances whatsoever.
+
+[5:25] Um anyway, enough uh enough of that for today. Um you doing, Nastasia? Yeah. Oh yeah, we we mentioned to the uh so bad. I I don't want to take it anymore.
+
+[5:38] What what happened? I I never have problems with you. Well, but do you come from the other direction? I come from Manhattan. Oh.
+
+[5:46] Well, it crawled through the Bedford uh the from Manhattan to Brooklyn. You in that's like a seven-minute I'm assuming most of you have not traveled on the subway with Nastasia, but she believes that the Metropolitan Transit Authority, who's the people that run the subway, she believes that they purposely uh stay too long at the platform just to mess with her. They think, she thinks that that they can speed off somehow, like at three times the rate and don't do it literally just to piss her off. Would you say that's no? I think that they if there is a delay, you should stop the train.
+
+[6:25] Don't crawl. Crawling makes it crawl. Crawling is infuriating. Have you been in a stop subway with Booker? He'd rather it crawl.
+
+[6:33] If it's going, it's going. If it stops, he's like, why is it stopped? Why is it stopped? Is it ever gonna start again? Ever?
+
+[6:38] Is it ever gonna start? Ugh. Well, the honking today. It's honking because there are literally people in the tracks that are working on the freaking tracks. And there's people moving, getting place to place on a subway.
+
+[6:53] And those people get into the little uh side divots. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, no, I know. I know. But why can't they work at 3 a.m., 4 a.m.?
+
+[7:01] I mean, presumably they are working at both times. I mean they all had sandwiches as we passed them slowly. So you're saying Peter Kim is now working for the employee. Peter Kim's working for Peter Kim, cooking issue's favorite punching bag, well known for like his nervous reaction to anything is to eat sandwiches. I think he has in like he in his pockets at all times, he has some form of sandwich.
+
+[7:25] Perhaps a nervous reaction? Yeah, yeah. He was, yeah. At any point, if he sees a sandwich, he'll pick it up, like a moldy egg salad sandwich, as we you know, as we said about the show. Mofad galaxy.
+
+[7:37] We're like, Peter, why are you eating a sandwich? And even if he's just finished the sandwich, there's always that little bit of sandwich in the corner of his mouth, you just had a sandwich. Yeah, don't right? Every time Nastasi and I Okay, so the the thing with Nastasia and I is that we're uh we're not good examples for for instance when you're filming or whenever everyone's like, oh, we need to break for lunch because they do it for the crew and all this stuff. Everyone breaks for lunch, everyone has lunch, everyone.
+
+[8:01] I'm like, no, no, just freaking work until it's done. Just finish freaking work until it's over, and either we'll die or we'll eat eventually, right? I mean it's I actually don't get hungry when I'm working. When you're actually working hard, do you get really hungry, Nastasia? No.
+
+[8:14] I I will realize at the end of a day here that I haven't eaten. Right. If you're I mean, let's take this as a note. If you are getting very hungry while you're working, unless you have actually starved yourself for like a whole day, you're probably a little bit bored. Right?
+
+[8:30] I mean, like, I get hungry either when I'm sitting or talking or thinking about food a lot. But when you're cooking food, you're not thinking about food. Eventually your stomach eats itself, and then you're good. Are you one of those people? Who at certain No, no, no, no, my wife's not an angry person.
+
+[8:49] No, like when you don't eat, she gets ugly. Oh, well, no, she means she's very thin. She gets hypoglycemic, whatever. But my point is is that um she gets to the point where she's like, I'm not hungry anymore. Yes, yes.
+
+[9:00] Like, you know, the if you're waiting to go to a so you go to some place and like it's an hour wait, and you're like, oh, we'll go somewhere else, and the next place is like it's a two-hour wait. And then you go back to the first place and it's an hour, I'm not hungry anymore. Well, is is there like a biological reason for that? I mean, obviously your stomach isn't really shrinking, is it? Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[9:17] It doesn't ever happen to me. You know, I could always either eat or not eat. You know, it's uh it's never I've never at the point where I could eat. I could I could eat. You know, I could eat.
+
+[9:29] It's really weird. This man is wearing a diamond engagement ring on his hand. Why is that weird? Because he's a guy? Is it on his engagement gender?
+
+[9:38] Don't gender norm that, bro. He's looks like he's traditional. What like this Nastasi's gonna continue to stereotype until somebody calls in. Unless that's a woman. Is that a woman?
+
+[9:48] I I don't I don't know. I'm not uh I have no idea. I have no idea. But listen, I was just in uh as I was saying, I didn't want to talk about it until I got back. I was in China.
+
+[9:55] I was in uh China in the Philippines. Uh and you were at the farm, right? Up in Chesreak. Oh, you didn't go? I thought you said you went to the farm.
+
+[10:04] No, I said it was Saturday. Oh, well, we missed the the the the event we go to typically every year at Cesare Casella's uh farm Discovery Farm. Uh well next year maybe if they invite us, we'll talk about it. Did they not invite us? No, they did.
+
+[10:17] We were just both not. What do you what do you do at Cesare's farm? Pick prosciutto off the trees. Oh my god, can you imagine? Like, imagine if there was a Willy Wonka with cured meats.
+
+[10:26] That is what? That is what Chesre. Yeah, Chesaree is the Willy Wonka of cured meat. He really kind of is. I'm gonna buy him a purple hat.
+
+[10:35] The old, you know, we're gonna do the old willy wanna. He would totally wear that. What's the grossest part of Willy Wonka? The original Willy Wonka? Uh what's the gross the chicken head getting cut off?
+
+[10:44] No. What? The the when they're in the tunnel. No, that's not the grossest part. Because they pee and poop in the bed because he hasn't gotten out of his bed in twenty years.
+
+[10:53] That one? Yeah, man. I think that I don't like the the tunnel scene. What about you, Dave? See, Nastancia reads too much into it.
+
+[11:01] There's just too many. That movie is just profoundly disturbing in so many ways. Really? Because my whole kind of life is based on it. My life is based on it.
+
+[11:09] I love that movie. Yeah, no. Too disturbing for you. Like what do you find disturbing about it? The children getting mangled?
+
+[11:15] No, that's good. That's okay. I don't I don't know. Just something about the tone of that movie never really rubbed me the right way. Is it the weird asides that uh Gene Wilder makes during the entire film?
+
+[11:26] Yeah, probably. Now I have all those weird asides going through my. Oh, really? Alright, caller, you're on the air. Well, hi, this is Sean calling from England.
+
+[11:47] Hey, how are you doing? How's England? Uh yeah, it's good, thanks. Good. Uh so a while ago I had a really delicious rhubarb granita at a r at a restaurant.
+
+[11:57] It had a nice uh pale pink color and sort of clean taste of rhubarb and it dissolved uh melted nicely in my mouth. And I'm wondering if you have any advice on replicating that experience at home. Hmm. Well, have you in other words, have you tried it and it's been a bad experience? Uh well, I um made a sort of uh full beeh thing with uh stewed rhubarb, but um you know I had a bit too much sort of fibrous material.
+
+[12:24] Yeah, yeah. And I think the cook the cooked taste wasn't really what I was looking for. Well, okay, so uh raw rhubarb has a very particular uh flavor and uh you either like it or you don't because it retains um the you know it's it's uh ox I think it's oxalic acid crystal so it has a very particular flavor and kind of a stringency and a little bit of a vegetal nature that gets kind of knocked off by cooking um so you could try juicing if you have a juicer you could juice raw rhubarb which I've done I've juiced and clarified uh rhubarb before for drinks but I found that you remember when we used to do that stuff we'd juice it's a rhubarb right on that you never had that Mills and I used to do that and um i i most people I think like it a little bit um a little bit cooked so I think rhubarb is also one of those things like ginger where the taste I think the taste change is rather dramatic from raw to cooked uh and so as with ginger I haven't done a lot of experimentation but as with ginger um you know you you might be able to get to some in-between medium that's really good between the cooked and the um and the raw uh as for the fibrousness obviously uh it's extremely fibrous so you could like I say juice it in which case most of the fiber will end up in the uh you know in in the in the pulp that comes out of the juicer or you could um strain the product through a chinois, but bear in mind you'll lose a lot, especially if it's cooked and you activate the pectin, you'll lose an awful lot of product if you put it through uh through a chinois. Uh if you add a spinz all you could clarify. Once you clarify it, then you have like a clear juice, then you could make you could add some pulp back if you want more body to make a granita or whatnot.
+
+[14:18] The other choice you could do to bulk up the liquids about it a little bit is to dope it in with some other um other juice as well. So if you did rhubarb, and then you know the classic obviously like trite thing would be strawberry, but you know, it happens to work. Uh they meld meld rather well. And for instance, you could probably get away with some raw rhubarb flavor if you had um something to round out that kind of sharp oxalic note, something like a strawberry with a little bit of sugar, and that'll allow you to cut the fiber down because you definitely in a melting sorbet don't want those long uh thin uh fibers. Now, if you have a vita prep, you can blend the ever-loving snot out of those fibers, and you can probably get most of those fibers chopped into indistinguishable uh paste.
+
+[15:04] However, it'll be quite thick, in which case, again, you're gonna want to thin it out with some juice and you know the juice of your choice, uh you know, whatever, strawberry juice, orange juice, uh, you know, whatever. Orange, probably not strawberry, something with more of a red feel. What do you think, Mr. Yeah? Anyways, is any of this helpful at all?
+
+[15:21] What do you say? What was that, Dave? Uh this this line from the Batman movie with Jack Nicholson. He talks about rhubarb? He says never rub another man's rhubarb.
+
+[15:32] I'm still not sure what that means. I would hope that his rhubarb is not shaped like rhubarb. That would be quite weird. Never rub another man's rhubarb. Wow, that's very strange.
+
+[15:46] That movie is full of jokes that as like a six-year-old I just did not get. Yeah. But uh also, it's kind of late. Do you guys still have rhubarb over there in England? Uh well, no, I was just uh looking to do it when when it comes in season.
+
+[15:58] All right. Alright, well, you know what? You know who loves rhubarb a lot? Is uh my son Dax. Uh you know what that this is sounds like a really good this sounds like a good application for the Paco Jet.
+
+[16:07] I mean, I know most people don't have a Paco jet, but a Paco Jet is gonna beat the ever loving snot out of that rhubarb as well. Probably just make a base and then throw the rhubarb chunks into it and just Paco jet it, and it'll probably come out okay. But listen, anyone in the chat room uh do any raw rhubarb sorbet stuff? Dave? So far no.
+
+[16:24] I'll put it out there and we'll see what happens. Yeah, chat room. Hook us up, chat room. Hit me up on cooking issues, and if I uh if I have if you anyone sends me some stuff, I'll uh I'll like it or whatever, and then we'll we can come back and talk about it next week. There is one quick question from the chat room.
+
+[16:38] They want to know if you're gonna sell low quality individual shirts on Amazon ever. Why? Well they're already they're already you can literally buy one right now. You can buy one right now. Uh Nastasi, tell them how to get one.
+
+[16:50] Uh Shopify.booker and Dax.com. Something like that. Shopify. Google it. Booker and Dax, Google that.
+
+[16:56] Okay, if you go to Booker and Dax.com, for some reason on the upper right hand corner, it just says LQI. Because we are low quality individuals. And you click, if you go to Booker Dax.com and you click L like LQI, which why would you know that that stands for low quality individual? Why would you know? Now you do.
+
+[17:15] Well, why are you making them Google this stuff? You're just telling them our URL, Booker and Dax.com. They go to it, they click the thing that says LQI. Whatever. I mean, I thought these were smart listeners, but Wow.
+
+[17:27] I my favorite though, I I have to say, I I really like the Star Wars enemy equality. You don't like the enemy quality? I thought about it last night. No. Wow.
+
+[17:37] I wouldn't wear it. I don't know. Why you because to Star Wars? Yeah. Too uh too manly.
+
+[17:42] Too manly? Mm-hmm. What is it? What the hell's manly about it? I don't know.
+
+[17:45] Just something masculine or the hell's masculine about it. Maybe because it is Star Wars and you're like Star Wars geek man. Star Wars game man. What? Star Wars geek, mostly men.
+
+[17:58] You're saying women don't like Star Wars? I would say the majority. Is this another thing? Oh, poll? We're taking a poll.
+
+[18:04] Yeah. Women out there, do you like Star Wars? I'm sure there's some. England, are you still on the line? Anyway.
+
+[18:09] Uh yeah, I'm not a big fan. Uh I know. Or Doctor Who. Oh, come on. England.
+
+[18:16] He has to like the Doctor Who. Do you do you like do you are you one of those Doctor Who telephone booth fans? Uh well, I watched it when I was a kid, but it's a bit cheesy for me. Yeah. Alright, that's fair.
+
+[18:26] So when I was on the airplane back from China, the turbulence was so bad. The turbulence was so so so bad that uh I couldn't I I couldn't even operate my phone because my mind was up raised. So I had to put on a movie that I knew by heart, and so I put on Star Wars Star Wars Four and New Hope. Yeah, I had to put on a movie that Why didn't you just sit there with nothing? What?
+
+[18:49] Like sit there in a tube. Sit there in a tube. Where was it over? Uh it was an hour outside. So the interesting thing is, I don't know if you know this, this is not a cooking related thing, so I'll try to keep it short, but the green line that that is on that traces you the path of your airplane is fake.
+
+[19:07] It's not your actual path. Why? Shocker. But I mean but why not? They know what your actual path is.
+
+[19:14] They just draw some sort of line. It's like, you know, it's Harold in the green crayon. They just draw a random line between the two points. Because when so right before they don't know where they are, right before the turbulence, you know, I'm I'm flying up and the line goes directly over North Korea. Like directly over North Korea.
+
+[19:33] And I'm like, what? Like, what? Why would we're threatening they're threatening to shoot down airplanes? Why would we go over? Yeah, well.
+
+[19:43] I was like, what in the what? You know what I mean? Did you ask somebody? Like what? Who am I gonna ask?
+
+[19:49] Uh Steward? I'm like, you know what? Of course. And then, you know, I have all these conspiracy theories in my head. You know, I'm like, what?
+
+[19:59] Yeah, and if you're dumping chemtrails. And for some reason, for some reason, they're not flying at the maximum altitude. Like we you most of my flights that take off out of Hong Kong and go up, they're hovering, you know, around like 30, 32, 34,000. So they're like trying to be turned out. They're like right in the missile zone.
+
+[20:17] You know, you know, like the the service air missile guys in North Korea are like, I could totally hit that. I could totally hit that. So how did you find out you weren't going over the ocean? Oh, because like as we started getting closer, the line started moving over and over into the ocean, you know, over international waters. I'm like, oh, they just wanted me to have a freaking heart attack.
+
+[20:37] And then right when the line moved over, and so I stopped worrying about that, like the plane just starts like brrrrrr-b. And like, you know, like the the the washing machine kind of like where you're like back and sloshing around, like like uh like that one. And then um I was like, gosh, man. Because when you have 14 hours left in your flight, you know what I mean? Oh god.
+
+[21:02] You're like no end in sight. Yeah, you're like, how long can it last? You're like, you know, when when the flight's only five hours, you're like, okay, five-hour flight, I'm in it. You know what I mean? I'm good.
+
+[21:10] You know what I mean? But like a 14-hour flight in a tube, you know that they're gonna turn off the lights, you can't say anything. You're in a window seat in the very back of the back of the airplane because you booked late. And uh, you know. Uh so I put on Star Wars, and it was like one of those 4D rides at uh at Disney World.
+
+[21:27] You know what I mean? Where like and it was you know the big well, you don't because you don't like Star Wars, the beginning scene when in when Darth Vader breaks into the rebel ship. It's like I felt I felt it. I felt it. Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:37] Yeah, when uh C3PO and uh R2 D2 were in that escape pot, like I was like, Yeah, yeah, I get it now. I get it. Oh my god. That's my trick for crappy airplane rides. Just put on something that you just know by heart.
+
+[21:51] That's good. That was early. No, you know what? I decided that drinking doesn't actually help me in these situations because you try to drink uh you know, it's early in the morning anyway. You try to drink to put yourself to sleep, but all you are is like buzz dehydrated and tired and freaked out.
+
+[22:03] Yeah. You know? Yeah. So whatever. Like in the evening now, I I'll have a drink or whatever, because why not?
+
+[22:09] But whatever. No, morning is a little bit much. So yeah, morning's a bit. Although you know what? People believe when they go to the airport that there's no such thing as time anymore.
+
+[22:16] I don't believe so. No, but people, if you go to the lounge in the morning, people are people, you know, have uh nose drips of Chardonnay at, you know, nine in the morning. They're like, well, it's nine at night where I'm flying to. So you know what I mean? So it's the justifications are worse than the action itself.
+
+[22:34] Yeah, but I think a lot of it is just nervousness on the plane. I think people are drinking because they're nervous on the airplane, and I just I just and I used to try to do that, but I just don't think it helps. It does it doesn't help me anyway. It probably helps some people, but it doesn't help me. I never fly it's more for nerves.
+
+[22:48] I don't want to sleep. Yeah, only if I have an aisle seat, though, that I can make it to the bathroom. No, but if you have an aisle seat, you look, let me tell you something about IELT seats on a 14-hour flight. You can't see anything. Well, first of all, yeah, you can't look out the windows.
+
+[23:00] See if we're going down. Oh, come on, you're gonna know. No, listen, everyone who's afraid of flying knows that if you're at the window and you open the window and you see that you're flying over some messed up clouds, you're like, oh, it's just some messed up clouds. And you can look out in the distance and see what's going on. You're like, okay, it's okay.
+
+[23:14] No, that doesn't do it. That doesn't help me because I like I still think, oh, there could be catastrophic engine failure because of that cloud. No, come on, I didn't it could be like. What if you see the sparkling night lights at night? You see like houses and it's turbulent, you're like, we're not gonna fall into a house.
+
+[23:28] Well, you uh probably not. You probably won't fall at all. Right. Yeah. But uh so I, you know, Anastasia and I are window seat, but what I can't stand is the having to get up eight billion times when you're in the aisle on a 14-hour flight.
+
+[23:41] Because you know that that person who chose the window seat enjoys peeing more than they enjoy their own life. And so you know, I'll hold it in. If I have a window seat, I'm gonna go bladder of steel. I will use my that sounds like a nightmare. I'll use my qi gung skills, which I have none, but I'll use anything that I have to force the fluids back into my bladder, back into my bloodstream until my eyes turn yellow rather than get up.
+
+[24:09] No, I'm no way. I can't tolerate that. It's a miracle I made it through Blade Runner without having to go to the bathroom. No, I heard it was good though. Yeah.
+
+[24:16] No? No good? It looked great and it sounded great. I'm like, Do you like the original Blade Runner? I love the that's like my favorite movie.
+
+[24:22] I heard Rucker Howard is not in this one. No, he's dead. Oh, he's dead? Why'd he die? Didn't you see the original Blade Runner?
+
+[24:29] No, in the movie he's dead. The Rucker Howard's not dead. Oh, oh, I see. What he's do you mean? He's a robot.
+
+[24:34] What do you mean die? Can't they just make another one? I I guess, but then it becomes this whole like Yeah, no, it's a whole thing. So uh I'll give you a couple things. I went to when I went to China, I went to the Canton Fair.
+
+[24:47] Canton Fair is the largest, uh the largest you know, kind of trade fair for yeah, stuff. And uh this one had like bicycles, uh toilets, kitchen wear, power tools, and I was going to look for for our current projects, actually, you know, and for our new projects with Booker Index, which obviously we're not announcing yet because they're new and we haven't done them yet. Um, but uh a lot of knockoff immersion circulators, like a lot of knockoff immersion circulators. I saw the one thing I kind of want, and then I was like, why do I want this? This is stupid.
+
+[25:21] Okay, do you know how they have waffle makers? Okay. Imagine a bunt cake maker, a full-sized butt cake maker that sits on your counter and flips over so it cooks like so you can get really light area. You pour it into the bottom part of the butt cake thing, it starts to cook, you flip it over, hits the bottom, and then puffs from both sides towards the center. It's actually not a bad idea because you can make, I'm sure, really light airy bunt cakes, and apparently you get fairly easy kind of release.
+
+[25:51] But I was like, okay, when I make waffles, right? I make waffles when I'm doing waffles. I go in and out of waffles between waffles and pancakes. Now, because I don't have gas in my house, it's waffles, right? But I'll make like oh, I don't know, eight waffles, twice eight waffles twice a week, so sixteen waffles a week for a year, right?
+
+[26:13] So that's sixteen times fifty fifty. Let's say, let's say I only do it 40 weeks. That's still like hundreds of waffles, right? So even for a year, a waffle iron makes sense. How many butt cakes are you gonna make?
+
+[26:26] You can make it. If you made one a week for a year, I think it'll be worth it. 52 bunt cakes. Because remember, you have an oven, you have a bunt cake pan, you could cook a bunt cake pan in the oven. So it's the convenience and speed, plus you are giving your counter space up to this bunt cake maker.
+
+[26:44] I would have totally all you know, all this kind of negative stuff. I would have totally bought one if they had it in 120, but it's only in 220. They don't make a 120 version of the bunt cake maker. Another thing, a lot of smokeless, I'm putting in air quotes because nothing is smokeless, uh, grilling with uh kind of um those kind of quartz lamps and then like weird things. So they had a vertical a lot of vertical rotisseries for small things like hot dogs, corn and shrimp vertical in glass cylinders.
+
+[27:11] So a lot of that. Saw a lot of um what's the word I'm looking for? Uh to what's the word when you kill the bacteria on the surface of uh on the surface of vegetables? What do you call that? Disinfecting.
+
+[27:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. For for fresh veg. Yeah, with ozone. A lot of a lot of a lot of knockoff ozone things, a lot of knockoff uh blenders, a lot of knockoffs, some knockoff vacuum machines. But who uses knockoff kitchen equipment?
+
+[27:37] No one in the United States that I know of, there's no even venue for it. When you go on Amazon, you can't buy the. But you know, but American words, they must be selling either to an Asian market that I don't know, or to a European market that I don't know. Um, or they're there's they're making the actual name brands. But the problem is is that there was like three or four or five different factories all making the same knockoff.
+
+[28:01] Very weird. Very strange kind of a situation. Hey, you want to take another call? Sure, call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, Matt from mystic.
+
+[28:09] Hey, what's up? So I'm glad you finally got your spinz all. Got the spinzall, it's a miracle. Oh, thank you. Is it working for you?
+
+[28:17] Oh yeah. Good. Fantastic. Good. My kid uh my kid loves uh clarified spotted juice.
+
+[28:23] Nice. Oh, that's delicious stuff, especially carbonated. I mean, it just tastes good. What are you gonna do? So what do you got?
+
+[28:28] What do you got for me? What's the question? Uh I was actually calling in for the guy, there was a guy who called the last time you had a show who made the sourdough bread that wasn't getting enough lift. Sure, yeah. Um you can either do you can either do more folds, right?
+
+[28:43] You can just put like a a tiny amount of commercial yeast in it. So for those who don't know what we're talking about, uh the caller called in and said that the sourdough bread wasn't getting enough rice. He was using quite a bit, I think, of a relatively old sourdough. So when uh Matt's talking about folds, he's talking about um times doubling the old starter before you use it as fresh, correct? That's what you mean.
+
+[29:05] Right. Yeah. Uh yeah, that's good advice, I think. You know, it's so you you want I I mean, if you want to go pure with no commercial yeast, obviously if you go commercial yeast, you're reducing the starter load and that's reducing the acidity. But I think it all goes down to the amount of flour that's uh you know lost its ability to hold gas because it's either been eaten or uh or it's too acidic, or some combination of it's been eaten and it's too acidic.
+
+[29:29] You know what I mean, don't you think? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.
+
+[29:34] Um yeah, I mean, if he's not a purist, if he you know, if he's not like an absolute purist about using the Levand culture, then like two grams of yeast, like a point like point two percent by weight, uh sort of after the autolized should be fine. Yeah. Hey, do you have a copy of the Modernist cuisine Bread book yet? No, no, that's uh that's out of my price range. I bought a spinzall instead.
+
+[29:57] Uh no, no. Well, hey, thank you. Uh I'm looking at you know what? You can listen to the Modernist Breadcrumbs miniseries for free though on Heritage Radio Network.org. Oh yeah.
+
+[30:05] Yeah, but I was uh I'm all over that. Are they busting out any recipes in that? No, not yet. Yeah. Uh yeah, TBD.
+
+[30:12] I need to get my hands on a copy of that uh uh set of that books. Uh I'm actually interested in because I know less about that than I knew about the subjects in the original modernist cuisine stuff. So I'm kind of you know, this is it's you know weird to say, but I'm actually super interested to look at it. And then when they went at the museum, I only had like five seconds to look at it, and every you know, everyone else was you know had their grubby little paws over it, so I couldn't read it. Did they give them in the museum?
+
+[30:35] No. No. Anyways. Alright, Matt. You got any uh questions for us?
+
+[30:41] You're just giving us uh No, that was it. I just want I just wanted to weigh in for uh Dan Dan from Seattle. Uh nice, super. All right. Well, uh anyway, keep us posted on stuff you have with the uh spinzall.
+
+[30:50] Maybe I'll see you next time I'm up in Mystic. Alright, sounds good. Alright, cool. Um that's what I did in China. I saw some cool holographic displays, but it's not cooking related, so I won't talk about it now.
+
+[31:02] Chat Room wants to know what you ate there. Uh in China? Yeah. In China, uh I didn't have to have anything super spectacular in China that I've never had before. I'm gonna give myself 30 seconds, not even 30 seconds.
+
+[31:14] Somebody wants to know if butt cakes was among the things you ate. Butt cakes. I don't know. Is that a I thought that was maybe a reference to an old joke? I don't know, maybe.
+
+[31:22] I don't know. Butt cakes. Mm-hmm. But cakes. Checking the archives.
+
+[31:26] Check the archives for butt cakes. Uh but I but I will say this. I will just put it this way. So I when I went to the Philippines, I was in the Philippines for a day, and I was the guest of the Shangri-La Hotel in uh in Manila in the fort, and I did a master class there, and then uh afterwards uh the the you know um um the guys from the curator uh bar in um in Manila took me out uh on the on the town late night because I had a 5 a.m. flight, so you know, basically we went around Manila until 2 and then got in the cab to go to the airport.
+
+[32:04] And one of the things that they got me was balut. So I finally had balut. What is it? Balut is the uh Philippine uh Filipino egg that is the day before it hatches, they boil it, and then you eat the the chicken fetus. It's a well-known thing.
+
+[32:23] How is it? So uh it was fine. I thought it tasted fine. I mean, what you do is is you crack the uh top of the egg, you put salt in it, you suck out the juices. I have videos of it.
+
+[32:34] Uh uh, but um, you know, it's kind of horrifying for people. So my wife looked at it, she's like, that's horrifying, never show anyone that video ever again. So you suck out the you suck out the juices like and then you break it open, and you have there's this like weird calcified blob where all of the waste from the growing bird goes that's hard, and you throw away that calcified blob and you eat the little chiclet ball thing that's left over. And I have to say it tastes pretty good. It's it's it tastes like a mixture of chicken soup, egg, and like gibblet stuff.
+
+[33:14] Yeah, and so that's worse? Watching you eat that or watching you eat woodcock. Uh I know you love the word woodcock. Watching you eat woodcock. So uh watching me eat woodcock is much more horrific because the blood particles were hitting you in the face.
+
+[33:29] I mean, the problem with the woodcock was you were getting hit in the face with the blood particles, the goopy, the goopy, totally decayed, because they had hung the woodcock until it was nice and stinky, high as they put it in England, and then uh yeah, spitting those, you know, as you break the bones or crunch the little I can see it like the like it's like a it's like you were at a dentist's office and like woodcock was flying out of my mouth and like hitting you in the face. It was nasty. Maybe it's a good time to take a break. Wait, wait, let me finish the balut. So, for those of you out there who are interested in balut but don't want to taste it, they like do it or taste it.
+
+[34:07] The closest I think I can say, if you want to mimic the flavor of Balut is uh pressure cooked uh eggs. So if you do, you know, this my standard kind of pressure cooked egg, which is you take uh regular egg, you put it in uh water, you bring it up to a simmer, you simmer it for a couple of minutes to set it, you put it in a you know, close the close the lid on the pressure cooker, take it up to 15 psi, which is second ring, or um I don't know what that is in bar. It's like uh like two it's like uh 1,000 extra millibar, so you know, 2,000 total, depends on how you measure. Anyway, um do that for an hour, let the pressure come down naturally, and when you open it, the eggs will be brown, and the flavor of those eggs with salt is very, very similar to the flavor of balut. The only difference is that uh it's not gonna be juicy, have that soupy thing.
+
+[35:02] So if you serve that with a little bit of chicken stock, you will have almost a dead ringer for the flavor of Balut. And by the way, for those of you that are wondering, do the feathers get stuck in your teeth? No. Uh are the bones incredibly crunchy? No.
+
+[35:17] So, you know, you're looking at a fairly accurate flavor representation of what's going on. Should you try to do that? Should you try to do a less uh horrifying looking, uh, easier to produce balloon. Anyway, uh back in a minute with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978.
+
+[35:44] When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts: the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com slash podcast.
+
+[36:14] All right. So Nastasia, I have a problem in that we have so many old questions that I can't remember which ones we answered. I think we should send Dave, I'll send Dave like earlier rather than later, a list and we'll see if we can get someone to figure out which ones I've answered so that I don't double answer the questions. Does that make sense? Wait, do I have to do that?
+
+[36:37] What am I supposed to do? I mean, you're the one that can search the archives. I can't search the archives. I can't just like search by qu I would have to sit down and listen to every show. No.
+
+[36:45] Is there someone who's there's gotta be someone who knows? No. You guys. How am I gonna know whether I've answered the question or not? I can't remember whether I ate breakfast in the morning.
+
+[36:56] I can't remember anything. People ask me questions all the time. Dave, how can you not know what you're gonna do tonight? I'm like, because that's tonight. Like I might not be alive then.
+
+[37:05] If you have a list of questions, why don't you like check off which ones you've answered? How am I gonna do that on my phone? I don't have like a remarkable tablet. I should print the what I should do is print the questions. And then if I printed the questions, I could check them off, and then we can circle the ones that we don't do.
+
+[37:19] So going backwards in technology is the solution to this problem? I don't think so. Well, I mean, look who you're looking like. Excel my butt. How am I gonna sit there and check it off?
+
+[37:30] Hey, easy for everyone else to say, you know. You know, I'm the one that has to sit here on my phone and read these questions. You know what I mean? You should have a contest for chat room or for the listeners. Like, you know, go back, dig back through the archives on your own time.
+
+[37:43] Yeah, but how yeah. And then I don't know, give them a shirt. Okay. Give them a uh the sh the shirt of their choice. Well, the aforementioned uh enemy of quality shirt seems to be a hot item.
+
+[37:53] They can't have a heritage radio shirt if they want a hair shirt. Oh sure, they can have one of those too. Yeah? All right. Okay.
+
+[37:58] Which one? The sleeveless? I can't wear sleeveless shirts. Who do you know that wear sleeveless shirts? Well, we're in Bushwick, so it's true.
+
+[38:04] But Nastasi, what do you think? I like the weird one with like the the regular show graphic on it, the the weird like 80s, pseudo-80s graphic, but Nastasi doesn't like the pseudo eighties graphic. Because I don't get it. What do you what's to get? It's a s it's a pseudo-80s graphic.
+
+[38:18] It's nothing to get. It's not a problem. People chat room is saying that you can if you if you want to state the question and then they will respond whether or not it's been answered. But what is it? I'll try to remember.
+
+[38:31] Oh, you know what? We can put them up. We could that's it. We could put it up on the chat room. Is the chat room only exist when we're here?
+
+[38:37] No. Well, no, no. So I'll tell you what. They they only exist when you're on the air, though. I'll make you a deal, Dave.
+
+[38:43] Here's what we'll do. Next week, at the beginning of the show, we'll post the questions, right? And then people can say which ones we've answered. Sure. Sounds great.
+
+[38:53] All right? All right. So we'll deal with some new questions now. This way I know I haven't answered them. But the interesting thing here is I don't actually have answers for them, so we can just talk about them.
+
+[39:02] Alex from Toronto writes in, Dear Dave, uh Dave and Nastasia. I've been contemplating buying a half cow or pig and wondered if you had any suggestions for um how to ask the book bo uh how to ask the butcher to break the meat down. I'm hoping to get as little ground meat and sausage as possible uh and as many large cuts of uh meat as possible. Traditional butchery is optimized for bone-in cuts and seemingly waste a lot of meat that can be cooked deliciously in a circulator. Has anyone developed alternate ways of breaking down animals that avoid this waste?
+
+[39:31] If so, any advice on how I could communicate this request to a butcher who is not familiar with it would be appreciated. Uh thanks, Alex. Well, I mean, one thing I will say is that you can definitely do a lot of bone-in cuts in the uh circulator. So you know, uh all traditional cuts of meat um can be done in the circulator. But I think this is a really interesting question.
+
+[39:53] I think this is the kind of question that we should um perhaps like defer and re ask, although I have no way to remember when we're because we're trying to set up, aren't we, Dave, our our meat, our meat show, like meat curing, all that. I mean, and butchery goes a lot with that. What do you think? What was the question? So the question is is uh A, you know, I'll be interested if anyone in the chat room has um experience with this, but they're trying to figure out a more efficient way to butcher an animal for sous vide cooking specifically.
+
+[40:24] But what what show are you referring to? Oh, we're we're gonna do a uh we're gonna do an episode with uh, you know, we're gonna get Johnny Hunter and you know, maybe someone else, and we're just gonna do curing and perhaps butchering questions. Oh, okay. I I missed the pre-production meeting for that one. He is spicy today.
+
+[40:42] I know, right? Right? It's because we're off a week, you see, you know. Yeah, I'm saving them all out. Saving them all.
+
+[40:47] Same in all the zingers, you know. Um, look, there's pizza with greens. Nastasia, they're not gonna ever give you pizza with greens. They don't like us, they're never gonna give us pizza with greens on it. Ever.
+
+[40:57] Um Do you have arugal in your pocket right now? No. We used to. We used to bring it in and you know, we said this before. We used to think we could shame them into serving it to us by pulling it out of our pockets and putting it.
+
+[41:07] It's cilantro, weird. Anyway, whatever. That's not what the talking about. So um anyway, you can use the other thing is if you if you get traditional cuts that are bone in and you don't want to cook them on the bone, uh, you can cut the bones off and roast them, and it's incredibly delicious. So, like one really good way to do something like a rib roast uh is to get the ribeyes out, do the ribeyes low temp, and then just roast off the bones with the meat on them, cut them and serve them as kind of gnawing bones, and it's quite good.
+
+[41:39] Or you can um low temp the bones and then flash fry them and then serve them, and likewise they're incredibly good. So m most of the traditional cuts of meat, uh, if you maximize for traditional meat cutting, uh also have good applications um low temp or sous vide. The exception would be, of course, the tenderloin, which unless you I mean you uh I have cooked it low temp and it works really well, but you just have to make sure when you're doing low temp, you just don't cook it too long or it turns pasty. Remember those tests we did with uh with the fillets and how pasty they got when you cooked them a long time? Were you there for that?
+
+[42:14] They turned to like a even though they're not overcooked, they turn like just paste. Yuck. Yuck. Uh chat room does want to know if you can do a fish butchery slash curing show. Maybe that could be part of the meat show.
+
+[42:26] Fish butchery. So we want to get some good. Yeah? Yeah. On fish butchery?
+
+[42:32] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, if you you have contacts for him, you can get him in. Yeah. And is he gonna did can he do a family show? I I asked him once, and he said, of course I can.
+
+[42:47] All right. Speaking of family show, Jim Leahy's coming on later this afternoon. Really? Yeah. Do you think he'll make it through an entire show without dropping some F bombs?
+
+[42:54] Absolutely not. Alright. Uh this from Jeff, uh Dave Anastasia. In the past I fat washed gin with avocado oil, and when I put it back in the freezer, the oil rises to the top. The puck is removed, and a simple filtering gives me a workable spirit.
+
+[43:08] But I am working on a fat washed vodka using coconut oil. The coconut oil is unrefined, organic coconut oil. I'm having a difficult time getting it to separate out, which is weird because coconut coconut fat anyway is so solid. You know what I mean? It's strange.
+
+[43:22] And coconut oil in like uh coconut milk floats to the top so readily and turns into a puck. It's weird that that the you know um that Jeff's having problems here. But I mean, maybe someone in the chat room has uh some theories on this. The first time I put it in the freezer, it came out like whipped cream. Uh the second time I used the refrigerator, but only a small quantity of oil rose to the top for easy removal, and I ended up putting it through a coffee filter, which is slow.
+
+[43:48] The last time I tried to just use it without the coffee filter, but tiny oily solids. What do you think of that string of words? Okay. You're okay with tiny oily solids? What if I put the word olestra?
+
+[43:58] What if I put the word Alestra in your mind? And so now you're thinking of the tiny oily solids after they've gone through your body undigested. Now how does that work? Wow. Alright, Nastasia, you know what?
+
+[44:08] Nastasia is is going into these classes that are trying to erase some of her anger. Anger, internal anger, but I think some of her internal anger is focused towards things like tree fungus. Yeah, and yeah. Spores? Oh, well, the bat vast majority of it is towards me.
+
+[44:22] Right. And Mark. I mean, let's not forget and Mark. Uh the last time I tried to uh use a coffee filter, but tiny oily solids ended up sticking to the inside of the glass, and it was ugly. Until my bar gets a spinzole, do you have any ideas for how to get the oil out of the vodka?
+
+[44:38] Um you gotta use a separate uh sep funnel. Nastasia just gave the correct answer, bing bing, bing. You think I don't listen. I well, uh because you don't. But that's great.
+
+[44:49] So the uh I would try a separatory funnel. So here's now separatory funnels are rather cheap, but before you invest in a separatory funnel, um please put some of your product in uh in the freezer in something glass, right? So what I'm trying to figure out is is are you having a tough time separating it because of the pouring, or are you having a tough time separating it because it's not coming out of the liquid at all? If it's not coming out of the liquid at all, that's a separate kind of an issue. Um but if it's just that you can't separate it, then if you have a separating funnel, the s the oily stuff will flow to the top and the other stuff will sink to the bottom.
+
+[45:28] Uh and you should be able to get um a nice uh you know clear product. And if it's not separating at all, then we're gonna have to do some sort of you're gonna have to add some sort of filtering aid. The problem is filtering aids will in fact strip some flavor out of it. So uh, you know, try to use the smallest amount possible of something like bentonite or even maybe gelatin, uh something that will get rid of uh that will just c you know grip on to some of these small particles. Because maybe because it's unrefined coconut oil, it might have water left in it or other particles that aren't pure oil, and that's why it's not floating to the top.
+
+[46:05] In which case you'll need to fundamentally do a clarifying step on it because the stuff is actually in solution. But the easiest way uh to get the oily part out, the actual oily part, is to um use a separatory funnel. And a separatory funnel is interesting because it's got a little um stopcock on the bottom that you rotate and then you are removing the liquids from the bottom. And then you can swirl it to get the the fats to rise up to the top, and you can let it sit in your freezer for as long as you want and uh rock and roll. But that's what I would try out, right, Nastasia?
+
+[46:38] Yep. I can't believe it. Nastasia listening. Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Yeah.
+
+[46:42] Yeah, crazy. Uh okay. Uh and so this is from uh Ken. We see it's a uh rather long question from Ken Ingbert. Long time no here.
+
+[46:52] I know. Yeah. Uh so yeah, as he says, long time no pester. I hope you and the crew are well with my Thanksgiving uh coming up. I thought I would pose this question when, if ever, does one use a covered roasting pan?
+
+[47:03] Uh there are plenty of fond recollections of mom using that thin speckled graniteware covered roaster on the internet, but very little actual information about this. Let's first dismiss those who say don't use any roasting pan, mostly because the sides prevent good circulation. Sure, but sometimes you want more volume below the thing you are roasting. Carrying a hot, heavy turkey or other big roast may be dangerous on a baking sheet, and a roasting pan gives you the pan sauce option, especially if the pan is heavy enough for a cooktop. I'll just interject here.
+
+[47:31] I use roasting pans a lot, however, I don't have I always elevate my bird above the roasting pan to get that extra kind of um I always elevate it. Now, uh we'll be honest, I've never run the tests, right? I've never tested elevated versus not elevated. So it's hard for me to say really what the difference is. But you know, the underside of my birds are always blonder, underside of my roasts are always blonder, which is why you know I do the old when I'm doing traditional cooks, I do the old school where I start it on the underside, cook it off high for a while, and then flip it over so that I get colored on the bottom.
+
+[48:10] You know what I mean? Anyways. Um okay. Um back to the back to the question. Um you might say uh that covering the roasting pan is steaming, not roasting.
+
+[48:20] Okay, so what are the pros and cons of steaming, maybe with uncovering for the last half hour or so? You see discussion points about uh how covered cooking makes meat moister or retains moisture. Is that true? No. No.
+
+[48:31] Uh I mean it will, it depends. I hold I'll answer all these questions at once instead of going uh to me, moistness is more of a function of the moisture retained uh on a muscular level, which is in turn a function of time and temperature rather than covering. Uh think how overcooked pot roasts can be swimming in liquid, but the meat tastes dry and pasty. Search stew science on Sirius Seat for Kenji's related investigation on this issue. By the way, s uh as an aside, Kenji, interesting thing he posted uh I saw on clarifying old oil with gelatin to filter it as a fast way to get your fry oil back in.
+
+[49:03] I'll have to run some tests on that because the whole thing of fry oil. So, well, I mean, he's not using a 35 or 50 pound deep fryer. He's like, you know, cooking in a pot of oil, and so what you do is at the end of the night, you leave it in the pot, you stir in a gelatin mix, it settles out into a puck the next day, and then you have the um, and then you have clear oil. It's actually an interesting idea. The idea what I would want to test, and I have I haven't had obviously had any time because I just read this today, but um, you know, the oil breakdown is for uh a number of things.
+
+[49:34] There's particles in it, right, that lend to off flavors, but the actual um you get free fatty acids. A little bit of free fatty acids in oil is good because it makes the oil more polar, so it means that you can actually get better uh heat contact from your from the oil into the food, which is why hyper fresh oil doesn't work. But uh excess fatty acids have those awful rancid flavors and oil starts to go rancid. So, what I want to know is is can this gelatin trick actually suck some of that crap out of the oil and make it as though it is fresher? Not just that it has less crap in it, but is the oil itself actually fresher?
+
+[50:07] I don't know. Um Gotta wrap up in a minute. Anyway, so broadly speaking, this is back to Ken. I would like to say steam trapped in the covered uh roaster cooks the meat faster. Um, but you get very little Major Browning until you uncover the roaster.
+
+[50:22] I'm hoping you confirm or correct me or Shensa shed some entertaining nuance on the subject. One other point, I have not yet tried it, but does manipulating a covered roaster and the associated steam make for better bread? Uh best regards, Ken. Okay, so really really quickly on this and my my thoughts on this. Obviously, cooking bread, this all goes back to this is this is a the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[50:41] We are dealing with the miracle of moisture management problem right here. Uh if you go back in the 50s, uh people used to make turkey ovens that were essentially covered roasters where it roasted and the entire bird roasted in the um in this contained thing, which is not much bigger than those big old enamelware uh turkey roasters. And they did brown. And the the issue with it is covering a pot does one thing and one thing only. It increases the humidity, it allows the, it allows it it reduces evaporative cooling, right?
+
+[51:13] So anytime you cover a pot with something with liquid in it, you are decreasing uh the ability of liquids to flash off. You're increasing the humidity, you're decreasing the amount of temperature drop you can get via evaporative cooling, and so you're increasing the temperature. Now, it is true that when when you have uh a lot of moisture on the surface of a of a product, or if you have a lot of more of moisture, let's say bubbling out of a bunch of juices below it. So if you have a a turkey sitting in a pot with a lot of juice underneath, and the juice hasn't solidified or caramelized yet, right? Then that juice is gonna keep bubbling.
+
+[51:51] As that keeps bubbling, it's gonna keep the temperature uh it's gonna keep um it's gonna basically keep it at 212 at the surface, and it's gonna be harder to brown it because you have to overdrive the temperature to get the surface of the meat above uh the temperature of boiling water, which you need to do. You need to evaporate some of the liquid off the surface, dry off the surface once the surface is dry, whether it's in a pot or whether it's in anything else, it's gonna start browning. So in bread, you get the initial higher temperature and the and the rise, and then presumably the surface of the bread enough moisture leaves the pot such that it can start browning, right? That's how Leahy does his right his uh his pot bread. Potbread.
+
+[52:31] Thank you. Um in a in a in a cookware situation, all you're doing by covering the thing is increasing the temperature at which it's cooking. And w whether or not it browns is going to depend on whether there's excess moisture left, whether the surface of the meat can be driven fast enough to get the temperature higher. Well, anyway, we we could try to. If if you have more questions on this, we can I can get back into it.
+
+[52:58] We could talk more about roasting pan technologies because it's getting close to Thanksgiving anyway, and I'm going to talk about how I'm going to do my turkey again this year. We'll get back more with roasting next week, and we'll catch the other questions uh next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[53:31] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[53:57] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Well, I'm not going to be able to
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+[0:00] Today's show is sponsored by Bob's Red Mill. With natural foods, they support organic, vegan, paleo, and gluten free lifestyles. Learn more about their commitment to good food for all at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:24] Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick.
+
+[0:56] Brooklyn. It's all falling apart. I'm not gonna say who it was, Dave, but somebody spilled like an entire like coffee plus Coke plus slushy freezy into the mixing board. So we're having some mixing board issues. What a waste.
+
+[1:13] That sounds delicious. Yeah, I know, right? In fact, like we in the studio here can't hear Dave in the booth, so it's like a weird. I feel like we need our headphones. Yeah, hear nothing.
+
+[1:21] Why are you right now? It's okay. I think, Dave, are we okay? Yeah, keep going. All right, so we're okay.
+
+[1:27] So you can hear us, but we can't hear you. That's fine. Um Happy Halloween, everybody. There we go. We have uh, as usual, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:36] How are you doing, Nastasia? Good. Yeah? Good. Anything interesting happened over the past week?
+
+[1:41] What a freaking liar! You're the worst liar in the world. What interesting happened to you last week? Oh, I didn't moron. She's like starting a new business and like like leading right into it.
+
+[1:56] Mark Ladner. And you came to Friends and Family. Yeah, oh. And your son broke the elevator. Listen, listen, listen, people.
+
+[2:02] Like this is this is what it's like dealing with Nastasia. So like anytime you hear her say, nothing happened. Nothing. Oh yeah, friends and family on that new restaurant I'm opening. What?
+
+[2:12] Yeah, yeah. So how's it other than the fact that Booker came and broke the elevator? You know what it was? A copper wire had. So that's not Booker.
+
+[2:20] That's your that's your whole uh busted the 120, whatever. Yeah, but that's not Booker's fault. That's the incompetent weasel you hired to come fix the elevator. Yes. Right?
+
+[2:31] I mean it's like here I first of all, first of all, we have uh I want him to be able to chime in. So we have uh Paul, Paul Adams, friend of the show. How you doing? I'm good, although apparently I am not Nastasia's friend, nor families. Oh, wow.
+
+[2:45] Paul, you can come whenever you want. Wow, so uh Paul, uh formerly known as Pote. That was how I used to know him via email P-O-T-E. What did that stand for, Paul? Uh POTE is a domain name that I bought back when you could buy a four-letter domain name, and after I bought it, I made it stand for Paul's online text editor before Google Docs existed.
+
+[3:10] I wrote my own online text editor in 1999, and I'm here on the show to promote my online text editor? Yeah, Paul. Can you go to that other microphone? Uh I don't see another microphone. The one like way across the way.
+
+[3:24] Sorry, we're just having some we're having a day today. No. It's like, you know, the gremlins have invaded. So I don't know if you could hear over the crackling. Uh oh, my microphone's moving as Paul's passing by.
+
+[3:35] Uh I don't know if you could hear over that. Happy Halloween. Yeah, the crackling, but we have some serious gremlins in the uh in the board today. Uh okay, so we have POT, do you hear me? Paul's online text editor, which he started in 1999.
+
+[3:50] And uh let how should we put this? Failed to monetize. Let's just put it that way. Failed to monetize. Okay, where are we?
+
+[3:58] It's a free online text editor. Much well, so I've used been using it to harvest the email addresses of African medical students who are the primary users. Is that is this real? It's real. Yes.
+
+[4:10] It's hugely popular in at least one East African medical school. Which can you call it by name or that would that be like where? Like what I haven't looked at the site since probably 2010, so I don't remember the name. But how many users do you have? In the three digits, I would say.
+
+[4:29] So like there's uh a medical school in East Africa that's like, I don't know what this pod is, but that's what we use, because I'm giving my stuff to big Google. That's what's happening? Exactly. Hey, is your stuff available in China? Are you an alternative to Google Docs in China?
+
+[4:43] Yes. Oh, hey people. If we have anyone that wants a an online shareable free text editor document source, and you're in China and can access Google Docs and don't have access to a VPN, I'm sure they have their own solution now, some sort of something. But uh, you are welcome to use Paul's uh was it Paul? Paul's online text editor, which I believe is no longer currently functional.
+
+[5:09] If you're in China, please hold while I did you try to get around to it. I just tried the live. Did you just leave an entire medical school high and dry? How many people have died as a result of you not keeping your online text editor current, Paul? I don't know.
+
+[5:24] I think you can't sign up as a new user. If you're an existing medical student, you're fine. Oh, all right, all right, all right. Okay. So of course, uh, if you're in medical school now and you were in there in 2010, which is the last time you looked at it, you are an extremely poor medical student, and probably, Paul, you don't want to count them as your users.
+
+[5:44] Well, now you're a doctor. Oh, so uh Paul, for those of you that don't know, uh, is uh what's your title over there? Senior editor? My editor is senior research editor. Senior research illustrator.
+
+[5:57] At Cooks Illustrated slash America's Test Kitchen. And his uh his outfit, which Nastasia will uh Instagram out maybe later, is uh America's Test Kitten, and he's got cat ears on, which is I like it. The unusual man dressed as cat uh situation. Paul, a long time love affair with uh cats. Yes.
+
+[6:16] I bought these cat ears, cat ears, Halloween, probably 15 years ago. Is it just every year? Every year I come up with a new way to get my money's worth. Yeah, for me. For me, it's uh luchador masks.
+
+[6:31] I love luchador masks on the Halloween, and my favorite favorite, favorite luchador look is luchador in uh suit and tie. Like luchador mask, suit and tie, I think is just like the look. In fact, I'm considering just having that be my look in general. I mean, like no one wants to no one wants to look at my face. So you put a mask on, a suit and tie, all of a sudden.
+
+[6:53] Because I think maybe luchador without the suit and tie, I mean, people don't want to hang around someone with a cape all the time. Or they definitely don't want to hang around me with my shirt off. Definitely not if I'm all greased up like a luchador. That's a horrible in in like in those little spando shorty things. But luchador mask, so you get rid of the face, that's plus one, and then suit and tie, right?
+
+[7:13] Yeah, brilliant. Good news, right? I just gotta I gotta go find a resource for some of those super wide 70s ties. I have one, at least one. You have that place in the Eastwood.
+
+[7:23] Oh yeah, I'm not gonna blow up my spot where like the like every once in a while, someone exactly my size goes to die and gives all their clothes to this place, and I snap them up. And you know, right now is the sweet spot for people from the 70s dying. You know, people who had these suits in the 70s are starting to kick off. You know what I mean? Like people who are in their, you know, 40s, like people who are my age in the 70s, are like dropping, you know what I mean?
+
+[7:47] And like leaving their suits to this this uh to their kids, and their kids are like the kids are like, I don't want dads, I don't want this. You know what I mean? And they give it to this uh thrift store. You know, uh my so you saw the picture I had up ago. My my stepfather's father who died fairly recently, was a butcher.
+
+[8:04] I have all those sweet knives. I have his scale. I just hung his lamp, which no one else wanted in in my place, this giant awesome 70s lamp. Nice. I wish I had a high enough ceiling because originally where it was, it was in a high space and it was a hanging crazy crystal lamp over a table lamp.
+
+[8:20] And it looked like you know, it looked like something out of the Death Star, like Obi-Wan might be going around like disabling the tractor beam on it. It was sweet, but I just don't have the space for it. Wow, it's in your New York home or not enough. Come on, my New York home, like like it like if you hung it in my New York place, it would be hitting the floor. Like, what am I gonna do?
+
+[8:37] You know what I mean? We we don't have high ceilings up here in New York. Anyway, call in your questions, your Halloween or otherwise related questions. Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. That's 7184972128.
+
+[8:48] Got one? All right, caller, you're on the air. Oh, hi Nasassio. Hi, Dave. Uh David, sorry about the tech issues.
+
+[8:55] Um glad to report. I'm I'm calling from Europe again and uh calling by a google, which is free. I don't know if maybe that's uh good information that you can see. Thank you, thank you. Sorry?
+
+[9:07] Yep, good. What do you got? What do you got for us? Yeah, so um I'm part of a rugby club, a student rugby club in the Netherlands, and um we have like Tuesday boat nights. It's actually based on a uh a houseboat, believe it or not.
+
+[9:20] Anyway, we we cook for the the whole club, and typically we'll we'll try and cook for like 50, 60 people and aim at a euro twenty-five, a euro fifty per person, which in dollars is about let's say a dollar and a half to a dollar seventy right per meal. Um the big issues is that food quality is often pretty poor. We'll sometimes get uh students who've never, you know, they've hardly cooked for themselves that much, let alone cook for a lot of people. So often the food quality is super poor, and uh unfortunately sometimes we we uh waste a lot of food because they cook too much. Anyway, as a as an older member, I'm trying to improve things, but I was hoping that someone on the panel had experience talk um cooking for large numbers of people on a shoestring.
+
+[10:06] Uh we also have uh you know quite limited equipment. So I was wondering if you guys have any thoughts on that. What's your equipment? First of all, um I'm I at first I thought you said oat instead of boat. I was like, oh, we were gearing up for an oat related question.
+
+[10:19] Uh and do you you cook off board or on board? We we cook on board. It's a 30-meter long steel hull houseboat. Nice. All right, so what equipment do you have on board?
+
+[10:31] So we've got uh like uh we've got a go-to large pot, like kind of cauldron style. Uh it's really huge, but it means that people can't get the water to the boil when they're trying to do pasta and stuff. We got some pretty high BTU portable gas burners with uh obviously the gas canisters. They're kind of let's say large mobile cooking stations. Uh a couple kettle kettles, uh, a paella pan, uh some smaller pops and pens, and then you know, the tiny oven and microwave are hardly worth talking about.
+
+[11:01] So they're so small. The paella pan is is self-fired or it goes on your burners? It goes on our burners. And the kettle is separately fired? Kettle are you know they're electric, just common household things that are probably don't donated by uh members in the past that are like small households.
+
+[11:19] So how many le how many liters is this kettle? Sorry? How many liters is this kettle? Uh like literally 1.2, maybe maybe one and a half liters. Oh, so okay.
+
+[11:31] Like really small. Uh all right. Now uh so in reality you have uh six six gas burners and you're feeding how many people? No, we got two gas burners, two large gas burners, and we're feeding like 50 to 60 people. How uh how large how large are these?
+
+[11:48] When you say large gas burners, like what are you what are you talking about? How large is large? Like candy stove large, like rip roaring, like like uh 10 inches? What? 10 inch diameter?
+
+[11:57] How many inches? 10 inch diameter burner. 10 inch. Yeah, but are 10 inch. I'm trying to figure out like do they rip or I mean can you just tear off on these things?
+
+[12:05] In other words, could you just purchase or steal a large, large kettle and then like yeah. Oops, sorry, sorry, the quality's uh a little sketchy. Uh go go ahead. Story of my life, quality a little sketchy. I mean, in other words, like like are these burners strong enough to cook, let's say, soup for 30?
+
+[12:23] Yeah, you know, you can get it to a simmer, but but if you need to get it to a boil, it it's a losing bottle. You're never gonna get there. And and you're not underway when you're cooking, right? So you don't have to worry about sloshing. No, no, no.
+
+[12:36] No, it's totally stable. Uh-huh. And no fire regulations or anything like that. Because you can always supplement with very cheap candy burners. You can get candy stove burners or wok burners, and you can supplement like from power wise off of gas.
+
+[12:48] Those things tear like a mother if you need more hot side. Nastasia, I'm sure she hasn't said anything, but I'm sure Anastasia is wondering whether that budget includes liquor. I'll look into those. Yeah, I've never heard of those. Yeah.
+
+[13:02] So well, I don't know what they call them in Europe. You know what I'm talking about, right, Paul? Like the candy stoves, like the sh they're low, they're low down. The advantage of these burners is because they're low to the floor, um, if you're doing a big kettle full of stuff, it's uh a hassle to move around a big kettle when it's high up. So these we used to call them candy stoves or candy burners.
+
+[13:22] We would also use them for stocks and for everything like that, is they're down low. Okay. And in it's a lot safer to move those things around when they're down uh low. Now, uh one or two liters for for like your the other kettle thing. I mean, like, you know, what are you gonna do with one or two liters for 30 people?
+
+[13:40] You know what I mean? Um I mean, I'm sure if if you get one of those candy burner style things, now all of a sudden pasta becomes a reality because you can get a big bowl on it, a big uh sorry, kettle on it, you can rip that thing up, get it boiling, you know, salt the hell out of it, and then you could just go in batches, stream out and go blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, you know, out and you can get it because ain't ain't nothing cheaper than doing pasta, it's just you need to be able to do it in um you know in quantities such that you can get it out and hot and good and not turn it either into mush or have it be rocks on the inside. Yeah. Uh that's exactly the thing that we struggle with, yeah. Yeah, but you know, pa Nastasia enjoys cooking po right.
+
+[14:19] Nastasia, as the owner of a pasta restaurant, do you have any recommendations other than just going to your new pasta restaurant? Uh yeah, yeah, he can freeze it. Well, he can't freeze it, only you can freeze it because you have the special IQF like pasta freezing thing. Nastasy's like, you could invest in a three hundred thousand dollar freezing machine for your pasta. Um also obviously, you know, uh soups are much appreciated as the cold weather kind of uh, you know, rolls in, like a hardier stick to your you know soda, like a ribolita kind of a situation.
+
+[14:52] Well, yeah, it takes a long time. Yeah, but here's a risotto. Well, also, but you know, like uh but he says he has a giant paella pan. The question is is are his burners good enough to do it? Everyone loves paella.
+
+[15:02] It's just a question of what you're gonna throw in it for cheap, right? So you're gonna have to short out. Right um, and then we can cook with that guy pretty well. But what we really struggle with is like making nice like pasta, it just kind of turns into a big block of mush, and that's a real shame. What about beer broths?
+
+[15:24] Oh yeah, beer brats, right? You put one of your things on there and do beer brats. You know, beer brats are delicious. Do you have a power on this boat, electrical power? We love that stuff.
+
+[15:34] Yeah. Yeah, you have power on this boat? Like electrical power. Oh, yeah, we got power. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:39] So you could also move you could also move into uh low temperature, right? So if you have some screaming burners, you could do, for instance, I was hoping. Yeah, you could do something. I was hoping you'd say that. Yeah.
+
+[15:49] We're yeah, we're we're we're an engineering uh student club, so we can I can probably get a team of engineers to try and work on like a large sort of uh immersion circulator or something like that. Yeah, so the only things you have to worry about, obviously, is uh you know, I don't know what liability insurance is like over there. Nah, it's okay. All right, cool. Yeah, you want to make sure you don't get any um you want to make sure you don't get any stray voltage in your um in your water.
+
+[16:16] So, like, you know, uh I you know, you could use a GFI or or whatever the equivalent is over there, GCFI, but um, you know, a lot of the cheaper heating units that you know, for for instance, people used to make over here um immersion circulators out of the uh immersion coffee heaters, and the assumption from the manufacturers of those immersion coffee heaters was that you weren't gonna shove your fist into the cup of coffee while you were uh heating it. And so they have stray voltage all over the place. When you put it's very disconcerting to put your hand into a liquid and get electrical tingle out of it. Very disconcerting. So you just want to make sure that you don't have like a lot of uh stray, like I like I say, stray stray voltage, but hell yeah, turn a bathtub into a uh into a circulator uh is you know not a problem if you have the power.
+
+[17:03] The other thing, by the way, if you have a lot of gas, one thing you can do for low temperature is let's say you said for instance that water limps along, right in the pot in a big pot on your stove. So if you have water limping along, you put in a gas input where whereby you know the gas input's never gonna take you over the top of the temperature you need, and then you electrically heat the rest. And so I used to do that for like very large things. You would put your pot yeah, on the burner, he heat up the water, and then take it that last couple of degrees and just use the circulator as a as the as the the finisher on in the same way that like uh uh that guy Kernig Kernig's egg has his car with electrical and uh and gas, but not because he cares about energy and hybrid, just to get the fastest possible acceleration. You seen that car, Paul?
+
+[17:51] No. Kernigzag, this guy, Swedish guy, I think he has this car that it gets so fast that he electronically limits the speed to 250 miles an hour. And his 60 zero to sixty is limited by traction of tires and his sixty to one twenty is limited by traction of tires. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:10] And you can have his car for the paltry price of one point nine million dollars if you had bought it back when he's first offered them, because they're all sold, but he hasn't built them yet. Yeah. Yeah. Tempting. Yeah, my son Dax is into it.
+
+[18:22] So if I just said that correct, you you kind of get like uh sort of temperature baseline with with the gas and then whatever you need and and the accuracy to do that electrically and you can control that. Yeah, if you have unlimited amounts of electrical power, just do it all electrically, right? But you know, a lot of times you're you have a a limit to the amount of electrical power that you have, and if you do have a limited amount of electrical power, then it you can use supplementary stuff like gas as long as you know it's it's not gonna go over. And if your heat input from the gas is constant, right, so you don't porpoise it around and have it go up and down, then a PID control loop can just account for it and use the electrical to take it take it up the the last little bit. All right, nice.
+
+[18:58] I I think I'll fix this to to the rest of the guys. We're obviously, you know, students on a on a shoestring, but I think I can kind of make a case that we don't need to upgrade the equipment. I was kind of hoping you'd say that. Yeah. Uh I mean it it it's kind of obvious.
+
+[19:09] And then um I I I like the idea of the the beer brats. Um obviously like chili and stuff is good for for the winner as well. And uh and like just quickly and uh and then I'll uh stop taking a few guys time. Um what other recipes do you think are go to that are simple enough for people to follow? Um so you know, recipes that can have a pretty simple method good quality robust not too sensitive does anything really come to mind for the rest of you guys anything but I mean like I obviously like things that are like bonehead easy are things that people make in huge quantities for families.
+
+[19:43] So stews, soups, I mean they're not it's not so exciting. If you here's when I say if you go uh if you're gonna go the low temperature route I would start with uh zippies right Ziplocks uh as opposed because you probably don't have the money for a vacuum machine right now although building a DIY vacuum machine is cool right uh I would just um I mean the pr your problem is is that you you're looking at an inherent hard limit on the input cost right and so like most of the time when you have a hard limit on input cost you want to have the majority of your calories come from cheap stuff like grains and pulses and then uh then you supplement it with the high grade stuff like meats. This is why things like paella seafood wasn't so expensive, right? If it's more of a sausage base with like a little bit I'm sure muscles are cheap where you are so if it's like primarily things like mussels and and uh you know and sausages then you know you can you know your pie is not nearly so expensive and you can splurge a little bit on the rice and get the good stuff because even expensive rice isn't that expensive. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[20:44] Uh you know same goes for soups or like you know Ribolitas, bean dishes things like this is why this stuff is peasant food because it's made you're ex stretching out the expensive ingredient by using cheap ingredients. As soon as you're going into full protein cookery then you have to find a protein that you like to eat that is not that expensive, right? I just went to a Dutch restaurant in Canada where I had stomp pot, which is as far as I can tell, potatoes and bacon. Yes. I did not I did not know it got further than than the Netherlands.
+
+[21:14] That's actually kind of great to hear. Stump pots in Canada. Interesting. In Toronto, restaurant called Menorgan. Here here's a good one for you.
+
+[21:22] Let's say you get a candy burner, right? And you don't have a big old big old oven. Here's what you're gonna here here is a good recipe for you. You're gonna make a low you can make it doesn't actually have to be low temperature because you don't actually want it that low temperature. You can do it in zippies at relatively high temperature.
+
+[21:36] But like Schweinhoxa is pretty cheap. I think even in the Netherlands, Schweinhoxa is super cheap. So what you do is is you get your circulator and you uh heat, you know, you heat this the stuff up, you cook, you cook your your Schweinhoxa through until they're done. Pull them out when they are hot. I can't stress this enough.
+
+[21:52] Pull them out when they're hot and let the skin flash off so that you get rid of the moisture on the skin. Then if you could get a candy burner, fire that sucker up with your oil and fry off the Schweinhoxa until they're crispy on the outside and serve with some sort of a brazen sauce. I love Schweinhoxa. I mean it's not traditional that way, but you can make it that way. Um's or whatever you call it.
+
+[22:16] What is this? It's not the hocks, it's whatever. It's like it's like lamb shanks for pork. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[22:21] So whatever you call that. All right, I'll I'll report back if there's success. Any any quick notes on food safety for for cooking for that many people? Like we don't have any training and we're probably gonna kill each other by the end of it, but don't aim for very, very low temperatures on your stuff. And um if a bag blows up, just toss it.
+
+[22:39] You know what I mean? Like if a bag inflates, just toss it. Uh start out with uh, you know, relatively short term or relatively high temperature uh stuff. Um and if you're gonna do cook chill, you know, get a bath, you know, not a bathtub but get a large enough vessel to chill your stuff down. And uh, you know, are you ice challenged or no?
+
+[22:58] Like all of Europe is ice challenged, right? So it you know, you gotta chill the stuff down at a reasonable a reasonable rate. In the US, you know, you know, mm we have more ice than we know what to do with in general. Not in houses, but that's not really the case here. Yeah.
+
+[23:13] Maybe maybe when it gets cold outside we can steal the ice from the canals. But I wouldn't drag it behind the are the canals clean there. You can't drink out of those things, aren't they? Cesspools? No.
+
+[23:23] Yeah. Oh, they're terrible. If it's in a bag and stuff if you ever go to Holland never jump in the canal. No? It's like it's like all like the like our equivalent of the guanis over here.
+
+[23:33] I guess so. Like it was literally the the first thing that the mayor said to us is like, but seriously kids don't jump in the canals and everybody's like anyway, let us know what happens. Good luck. Yeah. Thanks a lot.
+
+[23:45] Okay. Bye. Um wait so we were talk Paul, we were talking about what America's test kitchen? No, we were talking about his old program. No, we had gone on from the old program I thought, hadn't we?
+
+[23:56] We we're talking about your well whatever let's get to some questions. I like the idea of this stray voltage cocktail though. Stray voltage cocktail? It's kind of like Seshwan buttons. Oh yeah sure caller you're on the air.
+
+[24:07] Hi happy Halloween. Hey happy Halloween. So I was um lucky enough to grab some of the um elusive Ashmeats kernel apple you love so much. I do love it. I do love it.
+
+[24:17] So I'm gonna please tell me please tell me that you stored it in the refrigerator before you processed it. Please good all right. Um and so I'm gonna make some Kentucky kernels um from liquid intelligence but what else should I make and will the juice freeze well? And if it will, should I clarify it first? Juice will freeze well.
+
+[24:37] I I don't think it'll matter too much whether you clarify it first. You want to hit it with ascorbic acid as you juice it so that you keep the character of it. Yeah, uh you know, I usually I juice it uh right away. If you you know, if you have access to um very high proof high grade ethanol, and we'll get into this later if I ever get to the questions. Um you can do the auto hustino with actual.
+
+[25:01] These are the questions. No, no, I meant the questions that written in the whatever. You know what I mean. Dave Dave Dave has to give me the giving me the nudging. Anyway, so the uh like you can do an auto hostino on it, which is a pectin trick, which uh, you know, one of the written in questions uh deals with um later on.
+
+[25:15] But yeah, I would you know you yeah, you can freeze. I've never frozen unclarified juice, but I'm sure it'll freeze fine. Uh and then uh if anything, it should be easier to clarify when it thaws out. Uh I don't think you're gonna get any more oxidative damage in it uh by freezing it before or after. I don't think, but I've never tested it, so I can't say for sure.
+
+[25:36] Uh the one thing with ash meads or any other apple, and that's why I asked you about uh the refrigeration, is um ash meads in particular, all apples, ash meads in particular, if you leave them um, you know, warm, especially if they're aspiring together in a case or in a bag, they will relatively quickly um reduce their malic acid content substantially. And this is and actually this can be a benefit for cider. I think one of the mistakes people make when they're making ciders is uh they use uh uh apples that are too high in acid content, and then when the sugar ferments out, it's unpleasantly acid. Uh, you know, and you know that can be a a big issue, but in juice for cocktails, you want to maintain all the acidity that you can. What happens to the mallet?
+
+[26:21] What does it get converted to? I don't know. Uh no, I think it just gets consumed. I don't know. I should look it up.
+
+[26:27] But it's just, you know, the acid levels, starch levels go down, uh, acid levels go down, sugar levels go up, uh, and I think sugar levels go up absolutely and not just relative to acid, but I can't be sure. Uh, and um volatiles go up. So overripe or senescent apples tend to have that more flowery aroma that you get. Uh, you know, and if they're allowed to overripen on the tree, you get that greasy skin phenomenon. Um but yeah, ash meads like it's very depressing when someone buys uh you know a bunch of ash ash meads and then uh lets them kind of go too far and they lose that amazing kind of rich acidity that they have because they really are just a remarkable um when they're good, they're a remarkable uh apple.
+
+[27:11] Yeah. From the 17, like or very early 1700s, English, like 1701 or something like that, same year that the post was founded by Alexander Hamilton. Uh I believe. Anyway, uh it's been a long time since I've looked at the history of ash means. But anyway, yeah, so I that that's what I would do with it.
+
+[27:26] And uh please tweet on back and tell us how the cocktails worked out. Great. Because I think they're good. Did you eat one? Aren't they good?
+
+[27:32] Yes, very, very. I spoke to this guy uh whose name just went out of my head, but he's like the most famous uh Virginia apple grower of uh old varieties. He has a book out, he's got a he's got a huge apple orch, I forget his name, but I was I I talked to him once about ash meads, carnal is like they're too good to juice. And I was like, hey, it's my job, man. I mean, I make cocktails, you know, I don't serve slices of apple to people for a living.
+
+[27:54] Um remember our acidus tasting? Well, oh yeah, what about it? Didn't like it. Nastasia is like, how many times have we brought this up on the show where you can't get past the worst lunch of our life? It was not that bad.
+
+[28:07] It was not that long. It wasn't not a big deal. Tell me about it. You know, Dave, it's like, you know what? It's like, here's I am.
+
+[28:14] If I want an experience, right? Like, let's say I want an experience that you can't get anywhere else on earth, right? Right? And you said to me, hey, Dave, uh, in order to get this experience, I'm gonna run over your foot with uh with a medium-sized car. And I'm like, okay, will the car break my foot?
+
+[28:32] No, it's just gonna hurt for like a second and it's gonna be over, but then you get to do this amazing thing, right? You do that, and you don't keep complaining about the freaking car that ran over your foot. That's an interesting analogy. We get to go to this like tasting, it's unbelievable tasting that you can't have anywhere else. And Nastasia had to sit inside and watch someone else eat whose conversation she didn't enjoy.
+
+[28:53] For three hours, it was not three hours, it was not three hours, it was not three hours, because that would have meant that we left after dark, which we did not, and in fact, we were there for a little bit of time. All she had to do is sit there and pretend she was dead. When you're in a place and you don't want to be anywhere, just sit and pretend that you're dead. No, seriously. Everyone.
+
+[29:10] Everybody knew to bring their own lunch except for us. So we sat there. Because we were horning in on somebody else's property and somebody else's lunch. It's like you invited yourself to their lunch that they were having, so that you could steal all of their freaking citrus fruit, and you can't just sit there and pretend that you're dead for for three hours. Just sit and pretend that you're dead, that you're not alive anymore.
+
+[29:31] That's how I get through half of my life. I just sit and pretend that I'm not alive. Oh, that's bleak. It's so grim. But how how else are you supposed to get through if you're bored out of your freaking mind, right?
+
+[29:42] All you have to do is pretend that you don't exist anymore. And then it's okay all of a sudden. Is this what it's gonna say about it? So, that's working. No, it's how a it's how you grow up ADD.
+
+[29:53] If you grow up as an ADD kid who can't see the board and doesn't have glasses yet, and you have to live through all of school, what you do is you sit there in your seat, not like seeing anything that's going on around you, and you pretend that you're not alive anymore, and you learn how to daydream like a human being. You know what I mean? It's like it's like just take yourself out of the situation, have an out-of-body experience. Like think about the think about the freaking universe. Go Zen.
+
+[30:17] You want to take a quick break? Take a break, we'll be right back with some cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts of the seed. You get the bran, the germ, and the endosperm.
+
+[30:40] The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's gonna grow into a plant. It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. So what you want to do once you buy whole grain flour is keep it kind of wrapped so that oxygen can't get to it so it doesn't go rancid. But the good news about having that fat is that it has a lot of flavor.
+
+[31:04] If you want, you can actually buy the wheat germ, for instance, and add it back to flowers. But if you buy Bob's red mill product, it already has the germ in it, so you don't have to. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. And we're back. So we have a caller on the air, but Nastasia's giving me the dirty look.
+
+[31:23] So let me quickly answer one of the writing questions. Uh Cody write in, uh Cody Cody Brown wrote in about grilling. I'm interested in in a grilling setup I've seen in photos and videos from professional kitchens. It's essentially a smaller medium box with charcoal in it and a great slapped on top. I've attached the pictures below.
+
+[31:38] Um I'm interested in a solution for quickly and efficiently finishing meats that I low temperature cook. You know, you can buy a steers up, just kidding. Uh I would also like to I'm not kidding me. You can you can't because Amazon, whatever. I don't want to get into it.
+
+[31:44] Wait, wait, just say why Amazon won't. Amazon won't Amazon has over a thousand, Nastasia? Yeah. Over a thousand back orders for the Searsols, and they're not, and they have 2,500 of them in stock, and they're not selling them because they're afraid they're gonna run out. I swear to God.
+
+[32:06] Uh that is what's happening. They have how many thousand are on the water right now? 2400. 20. No, on the water?
+
+[32:12] We have 2400 on the water. Maybe then they'll start selling them. Jerks. Um okay. Uh I'm interested in a solution for quickly and efficiently finishing meats that I low temperature cook.
+
+[32:21] I would also like to char vegetables. Uh uh, I would also like to char vegetables to get that woodsy uh ember flavor. I have a gas grill, but it doesn't put out quite enough heat. Yeah, of course not. Gas grills are by and large horrific uh monstrous things.
+
+[32:33] Is there any gas grills you like, Paul? Nope. Okay. That was fast. One's with the infrared panels.
+
+[32:40] Can I tell you this? Can I tell you this just because I have a uh No Dave, you can't. I can't. All right, well, never mind. Well, because we have the patent on the Sears All technology.
+
+[32:50] Because we have a because we have a patent on the Sears All technology, my dream, and I would like to do it in the next, not it's not the next product we're coming out with, but I'd like to develop it uh maybe in 10 and maybe not, is it's outdoor only because I can't possibly make this indoor legally. Uh but the Sears All V8 that's like uh a Tepanyaki uh grill that's like maybe 12 inches uh or that's longer, like maybe 16 inches by uh like uh 10 inches, and just have like the power of it's probably in that space, so it's about the size smaller than a garland uh salamander, but with like 40,000 BTUs or 50,000 BTUs in that upfired, how sick would that be? It's not handheld. Uh no, no. No.
+
+[33:36] But it would be instant on. So you would click it on and it would stay and it would get hot within 10 to 15 seconds. You do your like you know, Tepanyaki from hell, and then you pull it off. What do you think? Yes.
+
+[33:48] All right. Okay. So uh look for that sometime in my lifetime, assuming my lifetime's longer than a year, which you never know. Um anyway, um I have a gas grill that doesn't put out quite enough heat to finish low temperature meat. A full-size charcoal grill doesn't seem time or charcoal effective when I'm just searing off a steak for my wife and I.
+
+[34:04] Uh, this uh setup, the one he's talking about, you see, seems like it'd be great for my purposes. I looked online but couldn't find information about this type of grill box. Do you have any experience with this kind of setup? I'm looking for advice on how to build or procure one if it's a good tool for my purposes. I was also curious about the safety of such a rig.
+
+[34:18] Uh thanks for any guidance you can provide. Uh love the show, loving the spinzel, thank goodness. Uh just made a fall punch with burr, cognac, and clarified lemon, clarified apple cordial Cody Brown. Uh so and then he included a picture from McGrady's uh McCrady's in Charleston. What you have there, my friend, is a Conroe grill.
+
+[34:35] So you can get those at Corin.com and they are for uh like uh Tepanyaki style stuff, and they amount to uh it's like a imagine if you had a box made out of fire brick with a uh thing grate over the top. You'll have to replace the grate quite often, and there's a little uh door at the bottom to let you increase or decrease the amount of air that comes in from the bottom. And the reason chefs use these is because you don't list them on your plan. So if you want to have something uh grilled, you can carry this box into your kitchen, put it on your kitchen. Everyone throws in binshotan because people have this like feeling they need to spend an in orbit an exorbitant amount of money on their charcoal, so they buy Japanese binshotan.
+
+[35:14] And maybe it's partially you know a little bit cleaner burning, but you can buy fairly clean burning American charcoals. You ever done uh American hardwood charcoal versus binsoton? No. Yeah, I've never done the test either. We should sometime.
+
+[35:24] I live in an apartment, so yeah, but resources are limited. Yeah. Yeah. Creating tremendous amounts of smoke in carbon memory. Andy, Andy Ricker brings in cheap uh cheap Binchoton, cheapoton from Thailand.
+
+[35:36] People love it. The his cheapoton? What does he call it? Do you have a name? He does have a name, which I don't remember.
+
+[35:41] Is it called Andy Andy Ricker's cheap cheap binsoton? I like cheap. What did you call it? Uh cheapoton. Yeah, that's good.
+
+[35:48] Yeah, anyway. Uh so get something like that. But the one of the main uh advantages this has is portability. So any restaurant that doesn't have the permits to have an actual uh flame thing, and they're only doing a couple units at a time. So if you're doing like a you know, if you're doing a steak for a billion people, you can't use something like this.
+
+[36:04] But if you know you're only gonna fire two or three small pieces at a time uh for a particular table, then they're kind of ideal for this, and then you can put them away, and then when the inspector comes and says, Do you uh you guys using uh you know charcoal in here? You're like, charcoal, what are you nuts? I don't have the permits to do that. What are you stupid? You know what I mean?
+
+[36:21] And then then that's it. That's like the technique they always have to be like, what are you what are you, jerk? What are you moron? You know, the other way you can do it uh professionally, people used to do in New York. Now you can get permits for it, I think.
+
+[36:32] It's just hard. But it used to be people would buy these gas grills that you could throw in wood chips in quotes, and so people would just build wood fires in these gas grills, but the get they were technically gas, and that's how they got in on the plans. Brilliant. Yeah, everything in New York's about messing with people. Anyway, okay, let's take a call and then we'll uh and then we'll uh come back and answer some pectin questions.
+
+[36:50] Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, it's crazy because that's what my question was about. We were uh hey guys, how you doing? Uh this is uh Cameron in Delaware. But my question was about uh charcoal.
+
+[37:01] You know, I'm using the pop-pop charcoal bricks right now. I use all kinds of hardwood bump charcoal. The uh oven that I'm cooking on right now is a uh kind of like a it's a Maraforny, it's a new kind of Josper style oven, um, which is it's beautiful, you know, it gets great Myard reaction and caramelization, but really for the uh test kitchen, what charcoals do you guys cook with? What do you recommend for that type of cooking? Paul, is there a is there a party line in uh in America's test kitchen?
+
+[37:31] There's almost definitely a party line, but I do not know it. I'm not on this show as an official representative of America's test kitchen, which in fact is in Boston, so I'm almost never there. In my home kitchen, I use Royal Oak hardwood lump charcoal, and I use electric assisted airflow to get it super hot. Is that the uh red bag stuff? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:54] Well, red brown bag with red trim. Sometimes red bag. The stuff I use is red bag. I think it's called Royal, and it looks like hunks of wood. Yes.
+
+[38:03] They come out. Um we had um we had uh Mead Head Goldwyn on, and he said something against those things. Uh you know, he's very pro-briquette. Uh, but uh then I went and ran my own test briquette versus uh hardwood, and I really think it's just a matter of preference. And I prefer using the Royal Oak.
+
+[38:23] Um I just prefer using the Royal Oak. You see, you have so Paul, you do a chimney starter that's uh air assisted, the same way that those little ovens are that you can buy the solar-powered. You've seen these? You seen a solar-powered ovens? No.
+
+[38:35] They have it used as they use a sil uh no, they're not solar. They have a Peltier in them, and they use the heat energy from the beginning of burning of the kindling to fire fans to force the air through. Oh, that's brilliant. And so they're extremely efficient at converting small amounts of fuel to very you know short duration but high intensity flames. And you can charge yourself on the phone.
+
+[38:56] Any idiot can do that. You gotta get a Pelletier and there's also a brand of it's a Canadian brand of wood grill called Cook Air, which has a fan built in, which I've never turned my cook air above power two out of eight because it gets too hot and too powerful. Oh, I like that. It goes through a hunk of wood in like a minute. I like that a lot.
+
+[39:22] I like that. So I wonder now you when you it's Quebecwa, cook air. Well, if it's Kevic quiet, like it doesn't work during lunchtime, and at any given moment it might be out skiing with the family, so we can you know we cannot work, we have to go ski, otherwise we are not queuing. You know what I mean? It's like they're good, they're good people, it's just you can't get them on the phone when you're trying to work.
+
+[39:45] That's all I'm trying to say. You know what I mean? I think we maybe we work too much. That's that maybe maybe in you know in America we work too much. Um look at the man in the mirror, Dave.
+
+[39:54] Which, oh, anyway. Well, my point is is uh now you got Michael Jackson going through my head. Uh so yeah, so the Paul doesn't have a party line on it. I tend to use the uh Royal Oak because it's incredibly available. Um I also I need to scale back the way that I think about cooking in general because I have so much wood.
+
+[40:13] Would when I do outdoor cooking and you guys talking about the servers? No. What'd I say? I have so much wood. Oh, geez, you guys, you freaking guys.
+
+[40:27] Literally, if I started if I started burning, if I started burning trees right now, I would be dead before I could burn all the stuff. You know what I mean? And so I tend to produce burning trees. You guys are like, oh, what the stuff? Like, no, like uh, although my my son Dax, the younger one, likes broccoli by Big Baby Dram, and he was like, Dad, do you know that he's talking about burning trees like marijuana?
+
+[40:52] I'm like, you know, Dax, by the time it's an issue for you, it's gonna be legal everywhere, so you know, whatever, right? I mean, anyway. Um point being that like I I go through profligate amounts of uh burning things that contain lignant or contained lignin at one time and are converted into coals. All right, is that neutral enough for you guys? You can't make some sort of drug or sex reference out of it.
+
+[41:13] Freaking people. We'll find a way. Uh anyway, so I I don't know. Um Andy Ricker is a good guy, and I trust him. And so, like, if he's hawking, I haven't personally used his charcoal, but I'm sure it's good because you know he's one of those, he's one of those people that if he says it's good, I I believe him.
+
+[41:31] His charcoal is nice because it's uh a lot less adventurotawn. It's also like compressed, so it's not just you know, the pieces are uniform, they burn really hot and they last a long time. It's a good value. Uh didn't know, you know, I'm using Fogo charcoal right now, which is very similar to just didn't know what your thoughts were. So thanks so much.
+
+[41:49] I appreciate it. There is a website, I have no recollection what it's called. It's one guy's endeavor to review all the hardwood charcoal. Is it similar to the guy that reviews all of Hershey's chocolate batch by batch. Have you seen that guy's website?
+
+[42:04] Nope. There's a guy, I forget his name. It's a bunch of random things, but one of the things is he samples as many date batches of regular Hershey's milk chocolate bars and makes tasting notes on every batch. And they're all bad. He uh he finds more nuance in a Hershey's milk chocolate bar, you know, than you and I would find in a fine wine, let's say.
+
+[42:25] And by the way, Nastasia, this happened to me the other day. So you know what everyone who knows me knows that at home I'm the cheapest human on earth, right? So first of all, from a technical standpoint, boxed wine is is is is good. Technically, boxed wine is the best. Uh you can drop a box of box of boxed wine on the ground and it will not shatter the same way that four bottles of wine will shatter if you drop them on the ground.
+
+[42:46] Uh you can take one glass out of them and not end up finishing the bottle and it doesn't go bad. Uh not like the way that bottles of wine work. Uh however, like I've been buying this, you know, fairly cheap stuff because that's all they sell in the box, and so I'm trying to push butt, and then like I accidentally opened a really nice bottle of wine and poured it, and we're like, why does this not what's this color? It doesn't look like fresh pressed grape juice. And we're like, oh, this is what real wine tastes like.
+
+[43:13] Uh Jenna and I were like, oh man. It's so nice to have real wine again. Because usually we only have real wine when we're out. You know what I mean? At home, we're drinking, you know, basically, you know, fresh grape juice with uh doped with alcohol.
+
+[43:25] Anyway, uh, do we have any more callers we need to get to, or no? Yeah, one more caller and we gotta go. Oh, okay. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hi Dave.
+
+[43:32] Uh, this is Joe from the Bay Area. Um this is a bittersweet moment for me because uh I have years of uh the backlog that I burnt through. Um but now I'm gonna be lonely without uh the ranting uh from you and hatred from Nastasia while I drive. Maybe we'll just maybe we'll just do like uh we'll record some ringtones of just Nastasia spewing invective. And then just get on our 10 a.m.
+
+[43:54] calls yeah. Yeah, anyone that wants to just subscribe to Nastasia and I have a standing 10 a.m. call that one or the other one always sets the other one off such that it's just like a blood boiling like 40 minutes of straight screaming and anger. Like I've almost been hit by cars walking across the street because the anger is boiled over. Oh no.
+
+[44:22] Yeah. Anyway, go ahead, call her. Sorry. That'd be a great ring too. No problem.
+
+[44:26] No, no. Okay. So I want to do a holiday cocktail. And um I like the recipe for the cold buttered rum in uh the cocktail book. Um and I have everything I need to make um uh the butter syrup, but uh I want to do a hot version of that, either with cider or with rum.
+
+[44:43] And first of all, I wanted to know if that would be stable at higher temperatures and if I'm even on the right path or if you would approach it in a different way. Nope. Yes, and yes. That that uh the Ticaloid is uh not susceptible is not uh broken by heat. So it's uh the gum arabic and the xanthan, and yeah, Xanthan gets slightly less thick at at temperature, but uh it's gonna it's gonna work fine.
+
+[45:05] And in fact, uh we've we've done that hot and it works works like a charm. Okay, but if I want to burn the sugar in a pan, then I can't put it in the syrup. So yeah, yeah. Um what I would do is I would I would pre-burn I would pre-burn uh some of it and then um because uh you know you you add the sugar afterwards, you could pre-burn some of the sugar and then dissolve it into the into the uh syrup after you add after you shear in the um after you emulsify and stuff, you could dissolve dissolve that in and then just equalize out the sugar level with um you know with fresh white sugar, and it shouldn't be a problem. I've never done it, but it shouldn't be a problem so then no sugar in the butter syrup yeah sure sugar in the butter syrup and you know you can you can go in other words what I was to do is like I I would not add all of the sugar I would burn some of your sugar and then you can actually because it's not the same but a lot of people can't distinguish between caramel and brown sugar when they hit so if you do a mixture of caramelized sugar and brown sugars that contain molasses like they'll reinforce each other and it'll i it'll give people the impression that you've used more um that you've burned it harder that you've burned the whole thing okay cool thank you all right well let us know how it works okay all right cool uh and Dave I know you're gonna kick me off happy Halloween hold on a second surly Dave wrote in uh surly Dave wrote in about pectin uh and uh about he made a quince syrup we could talk about it more next time made a quince syrup and added to alcohol and it gelled look up uh look up uh Dave uh uh alcohol precipitation of pectin what you're getting there is uh is because your syrup is not a high enough acid and so it's not gelling on its own and when added to a high a fairly high proof ethanol and it's been reduced the amount of pectin in it is allowing the pectin to uh drop out of solution and form a gel.
+
+[46:54] We could talk more about this next week. Uh and then Gordon had a question about methyl F50 that we've never uh answered apparently it came on we can talk more about methylcel F50 puffs but uh Gordon your main problem when you're making these puffs are that you don't have enough solids. Methylcelf uh does not foam well does not whip like egg whites unless you have a fairly high solid system. So don't start with juice, start with puree. Add your methacel F50.
+
+[47:18] The more you add, the the denser the foam will be. But if you add more than about a percent, you're gonna start tasting the methylcel and it's gonna suck. And remember, everybody, when you're making foams, if you want them to have taste, you need to start with very high flavor base because you're whipping in air, and the air is going to reduce uh the physical quantity of stuff you're gonna eat. So you need to start with very high flavored things if you want a good flavored foam. Also, if you're gonna make F50 meringues, they're extremely hygroscopic, so you need to store them in the dehydrator until right before you're gonna use them or they're gonna go mm-shoggy.
+
+[47:47] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[48:13] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[48:40] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com/slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:28] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly like, you know, 1245, one o'clock from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Broklyn. Got a full crew today. We have uh, of course, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:57] How you doing? Good. Yeah. Got uh Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave?
+
+[1:00] Doing good. Got new equipment in here. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. That's right.
+
+[1:04] You sounded really, really strange and different uh this time around. Strange and different bad or strange and different, just strange and different. It's new. It's new. We got we can't be afraid of the new.
+
+[1:13] Is it like what it sounds like there's like a like a phaser on it or something? Like like I'm about to be in like. I feel like I'm in uh you you you're too young. You know the band The Cars? Yeah.
+
+[1:27] Yeah. How young do you think I am? I don't know. Cars is like the 70s. So anyway, and I guess 80s.
+
+[1:32] They're big hits in the 80s, but yeah, I feel like I'm uh in the song Living in Stereo. It sounds like Rico Cassick. I will not. I will not. Rico Cassick, ugly, ugly, ugly done well, right, Stas?
+
+[1:44] Ugly Done well. Yeah. Ugly done well. Yeah, good for him. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:47] Good for him. Uh joined with we're back to uh take your kid to work life. We got Booker in the in the in the studio. How are you doing, Books? Unfortunately, uh it I'm I I'm glad to be here, but unfortunately, it stinks that I can't be independent yet.
+
+[2:06] Yesterday we spoke to my neurologist. Yeah. Do you want to tell everyone what uh she said there? Or do you not do you want to keep it to yourself? I can tell.
+
+[2:15] She said, she said maybe in January I'll be on my own again. Yeah. Yeah, you can't wait, right, to be independent again. You're gonna divorce your parents? Not that kind of independent.
+
+[2:27] No. I love it. She's not freaking Hermie from uh Rudolph. Independent. Yeah, oh that was Booker doing that, by the way.
+
+[2:35] That's very strong. So good. I love my parents very much. Why would I leave them? No, he just wants to be able to travel on his own like he like he used to.
+
+[2:43] Like he can't, he like you know, he has to be accompanied uh, you know, and treated like a three-year-old. Yes, yes, which is not the case. He is not, in fact, a three-year-old. Because I'm gonna be 16 in January. Yes.
+
+[2:56] You can drive. Oh, yeah. Uh no, you cannot drive in New York City when you're 16, Nastasia, little California girl. Like you have to be 18 to drive in New York City. Wait, really?
+
+[3:08] Yeah. I didn't know that. I'm from PA. Sorry, sorry. You wouldn't drive anyway, though, right?
+
+[3:13] No. No, he hates cars. We got uh Matthew from uh Booker and Dax Customer Service. How you doing? Woo!
+
+[3:20] How are you? Yeah, doing well, doing well. And we have uh Ariel Johnson from uh I guess from MIT now, right? Yeah, yeah. M I T in Cambridge.
+
+[3:30] Yes, that MIT. Yeah. Booker has never visited MIT because he only goes to above when we go uh up to uh yeah. He's a real Harvard man. Yeah, he totally is.
+
+[3:41] Actually, what it is is he enjoys the Sheraton Commander, which is truly a classic Cambridge institution. It's the best hotel to stay in when you go to Boston. I do have to warn you though, the elevators are tiny. Yeah, they are. Yeah, but why do you like it?
+
+[3:57] Because of what? Uh the room environment, the snack lounge. If you're oh yeah, they've got those like fried chickpeas in the bottom. And they let dogs in. Yeah.
+
+[4:07] Up to 80 pounds, but even though major weighs 85, they still let us in. Yeah, and Booker, I'm like, I'm like Booker, just don't say anything. And I'm writing down 70 pounds. He's like, Dad, Major weighs 85. He weighs 85 pounds.
+
+[4:21] I've been forgetting. Listen, Booker. Everybody bends the rules a little bit, but it's all about just not saying anything. Okay, but I just forgot. Anyways, the lady the lady in the lobby was very nice.
+
+[4:34] That's good. Yes, uh, she was very understanding, but it could have gone the other way. You could have gotten someone who is a real stickler for the rules, Booker. And a jerk. And a jerk, yes, that could have happened.
+
+[4:45] Well, we we I missed you last time you were at Harvard. I think I was out of town, so you didn't get to visit musical media lab. Yes. So, anyways, so uh for your for your pleasure, you may call in your being a 15-year-old questions. You may call in your Nastasia the Hammer Lopez questions, you may call in your Booker and Dax customer service questions, then that's Sears all or spinzall related.
+
+[5:08] By the way, any uh update from Amazon? How's that doing? No, no. Still afraid of running out of stock. So literally they've sold over half of their current stock in back orders, and they won't just ship them.
+
+[5:22] What have they told you, Matt? A lot of friends. Nothing. Anything specific? No.
+
+[5:29] Hey, we can't uh we can't sell them because if we sold them, we run out. So uh, you know, it's not uh, you know, notistical geniuses there. Or call in your sensory and or MIT Media Lab related or uh, you know, uh you know, chromatography, flavor, chemistry, ecology. Any of those questions, uh Terriel? Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[5:57] That's 7184972128. Uh and Dave, just if if we get a caller in, just you know, interrupt me, whatever, and we'll figure it out. I always do. Uh, but uh are we allowed to talk about the thing we just did the other week or not? Yeah, sure.
+
+[6:10] All right, so I participated in a by the way, this fits with the Harvard. Hogo. Hogo. When tasting rums, you must taste for hogo. Uh anyway, so like uh you want to describe Hogo?
+
+[6:25] Well, Hogo is one word that people use for the kind of funky taste of funky rums. What's another one? Funk. Yeah, but funk is a little bit. Funk is not really grass though.
+
+[6:39] Well, I mean, so part part of the problem, part of the problem is that the we have this word hogo and funk, but uh it's not a lot of consensus about like what sort of more specific flavors it's Ray and Nephews and Smith and Cross, right? Yeah, so you just say Ray and tastes like Ray and Nephew Smith and Cross. If it tastes like that or smells like that, if it's in that ballpark, hopefully. Pot still Jamaican rums, yeah, rum fire, rum agricules, right from outside of Jamaica, things like that. But that's more of the grassy.
+
+[7:09] Right. Yeah. Yeah. So is so the question that we are asking is funk localized to just one thing, or is like grassy funk adjacent? Like what is funk?
+
+[7:14] Like funk is just to me, more technically, unless you're saying something is funky in the James Brown sense. And by the way, Dax yesterday was like uh talking about dancing. I was like, have you seen James Brown's dance moves? He was like, no, I'm like, this is this is why your generation is doomed to failure. And so I showed him like a bunch of James Brown moves, and he was like, oh my god, James Brown is like amazing.
+
+[7:40] I was like, yeah. Yeah. And I so there's that kind of like that funk, right? Which comes from kind of funk meaning stinky but like more of an animal stink. More like an arm pity, sweaty, B-O, civic cat stink is really technically when you're saying like funk, it's like animal funk, barnyard funk.
+
+[8:01] You know what I mean? Not like grass, I mean like you know what I'm saying? It's like funky. That's why funky, I don't like funky. Like hogo means rum-related, like flavors that are hard to describe, like Smith and Cross and like Ray and Nephews.
+
+[8:15] Right, but so so if right now the best we can do is hogo, it's funky, you know it's like that thing, but not like a specific flavor, then that's not a very satisfying definition of Hogo. Smith and Cross isn't a specific flavor? And Ray Nephe is just a few. Yeah, but like so. When someone says, this one smells of apricots, like that's valid, but somehow this rum smells like Smith and Cross is not valid.
+
+[8:40] Well, so if it smells like Smith and Cross and it smells like Ray and Nephew and it smells like rum fire, then there's probably some platonic higher level of flavor above that that unifies them. Ate no platonic anything. Remember, love is writing, hate is philosophy, play-doh. Uh but the uh the uh great writer. Love reading that stuff.
+
+[9:01] Truly. He's completely like, you know, bat bat poop crazy. The world is a cave, and everyone is just watching projections on the cave wall. I mean, yeah, it's like you know, like it's like everyone's like, but don't you believe in the platonic? No, there is no, there is no dog.
+
+[9:17] Okay, there is no, there is no chair. No, all right. It's garbage. All right, Dave. All models are wrong, but some are useful.
+
+[9:24] Alright, I'm I'm all down. I'm down with useful. But back to this other thing. But that's why people say instead of apricot, they're like stone fruit. Yeah, but there are, but okay.
+
+[9:35] So let's say you're smelling a glass of wine and it smells like stone fruit. Right. Like, there are sensory percepts in common between that glass of wine and a stone fruit, and in fact, usually chemistry in common between the two. Yes, agree. Right, but when someone's gonna describe it, like, do you actually anticipate, because I've seen this happen, where someone's like, hexanal.
+
+[9:57] I mean, like, or do you expect someone to be like, hey, this smells like grassy. I mean, in other words, like, what do you what what's the goal for what's the goal for tasters? Like, that's that's what I'm trying to say. So, in other words, to me, like you want to instruct a bartender on how to taste this stuff. You're like, taste Smith and Cross, taste Ray and Next.
+
+[10:15] Well, I think I think using the word grassy and everyone meaning roughly the same thing when they say grassy is the most useful thing. Like, probably there'll be some hexanal if they smell something grassy. Right. But it could be something else similar, right? It you know there's other like six carbon aldehydes and alcohols and that's my next band.
+
+[10:32] Esters. Estra Esther Williams is always playing in the background, and it's six six carbonaldehyde is the band. Right? Too deep. Too deep, too deep.
+
+[10:44] So anyway, so we were doing you were doing a test to see whether people could distinguish these things, right? Well, a preliminary test trying to see if if funk and hogo is a driver of separating rums from each other sensorially. Well, I'm still analyzing. Data Dave. So we we're we're in this group of uh, I don't know, like whatever it's 20, 20 ish.
+
+[11:10] We'll say it's 20. More than a dozen. Yeah, more than a dozen, less than 50. Yeah. So anyway, so uh we're in this tasting thing, and Ariel goes, there's no wrong way to group these.
+
+[11:20] You can group these things any way you want. And then when I grouped them, she's like, oh, that's that's the wrong way. There's no wrong way to group them, but you can't have overlapping groups. That's the way I grouped them in overlapping groups. Groups are distinct.
+
+[11:36] You know, it's funny. She's like no Venn diagrams. No Venn diagrams. When I was in when I was in grad school studying these techniques, um one of my professors was saying, you know, like we like to do expert panels are like fun to do, but like expert winemakers are sometimes make like the worst panelists because they're bad at following instructions. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:54] Yeah. Well, I took it as a challenge beforehand. I was like, I knew that I would do it somehow wrong. And indeed I did. All right.
+
+[12:02] That's why we did it twice. Yeah, the the test, the test you like so nice, you did it twice. Uh okay, by the way, uh, before we leave today, because I know it's approaching Thanksgiving, so I'm gonna go into my pre Thanksgiving spiel. Because we only have what? One more show before Thanksgiving?
+
+[12:17] Two. We're gonna do a show on the Tuesday before? I think so. Okay, you're we're open, so it's up to you. We're open.
+
+[12:23] Now we're open. Are you? Uh yeah, sure. Yeah. Uh while we're we doing a pitch for Patrick's Heritage Birds, or is he sold all of his birds so much we don't even need to talk about it?
+
+[12:33] I don't know. I haven't heard from that guy in a while. Really? Yeah. He's uh he's A Wall on his he should be J Wall M I A.
+
+[12:39] He should he should be uh, you know, armpit deep in Heritage Birds right now. He may well be. Maybe that's why you haven't heard from him. Should be birding it up strong. Nastasia is a longtime cooker and her mom longtime overcooker of the Heritage Bird, right?
+
+[12:52] Oh Heritage Cinders. So dry. Yeah, she's well, she's she turkey. The thing is, is like you either gotta take you either gotta cook it right or take it all the way to my favorite word, meat floss. Oh, I thought you were gonna say flavortown.
+
+[13:04] Oh, flavor town. You know what? I forget uh who did a uh a thing on him, and then people were giving him uh garbage for uh helping you know doing stuff for uh like uh relief for the hurricane stuff. He's apparently like a super nice guy, Guy Fieri. Sure.
+
+[13:19] That everyone who meets him wants to hate him and is like, oh, he's actually like a good guy. You know what I mean? So God bless him. And he whatever he does with his flavor town nest. Sure.
+
+[13:30] You know, I would love to see him go do something Guy Fieri in Kyoto. He'd be like, oh this isn't big enough. He's like, he's like, oh, train to Subtletown. Like you know, like he's like, That's like Guy Fieri meets Randy Savage. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:46] Can we can you give uh because I don't really watch the show, so I can't really do his voice. Like in in my mind, I'm picturing the hair, but I I'm just using that voice. But you're gonna be the face stuffing. Yeah, subtle town. Yeah.
+
+[14:02] Yeah, no, but but the dashi, remember, is like basically flavorless dashi. If it's gonna be Kyoto style, oh pull out pull out the Katsuabushi before it hits the bottom of the pot. Welcome to Settle Town! You know what I mean? It's like let's put armfuls of katsuabushi in and then like pull it out before any flavor is extracted, and then like you know, either like make a stock that we serve to our dogs or throw it away.
+
+[14:24] Kyoto, settle town. But anyway, yeah, Americans don't really buy that so much. Have you ever seen the fake menu for Guy's American Kitchen? No. It's so I can't read it out loud without losing my yes.
+
+[14:36] Yeah? Yeah. So what was the acronym you used for it? Sure sugar honey iced tea. Yeah, that's it.
+
+[14:42] Yeah. Anyway, so I don't really know much about Guy Fieri's Ugh, his work, but I mean I feel like appreciate him as a person. I feel like it's taking kind of speaking of sugar honey iced tea. In the movie Madagascar, um, the zebra uses that in in the movie to replace the S word because Alex is about to attack him. Yeah, and it's pretty funny that Chris Rock replaced a curse word.
+
+[15:08] Since he is known for cursing. Chris Rock is a great actor. Yeah. Nice. Oh, you know what?
+
+[15:16] I like his voice. You know who was behind me in my anger class yesterday? Well, please let it be Chris Rock or some crazy non sequitur. Let's go for it. Emma Stone.
+
+[15:24] Oh. And I asked her to describe Paul McCartney in one word, and she said, nice. And I said, that's the only word you can think of. Why do you even talk to her at all? Why not?
+
+[15:34] What what would you like? Why would you talk to anyone? Like, I like if I go to a class, like you're like, hey, I know that you're in. By the way, Nastasia goes to a class to increase her anger. Or are you just like yell and do a lot of scream?
+
+[15:50] Alright, so now I gotta know. Yeah. I mean, she's an actress, I'm sure she's good at yelling. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:57] If she uses to like, if she has some sort of like role where she needs to yell constantly that she's practicing for? All right. Uh yes, call her. You're on the air. Hey, Dave.
+
+[16:09] Yeah, I can barely hear you. And tell and tell that skid steer behind you to stop backing up. Messing around. Hey, how's it going? All right, what's up?
+
+[16:19] All right. I was just calling um Thanksgiving related. Uh I was thinking of doing some uh stuffed mushrooms or something or something. Uh but I want I want a really good recipe as far as that goes. Um maybe something something a little more edgy or uh fresh.
+
+[16:37] Well, I mean, so like a like like are we talking appetizers here, small things, or are we talking about turkey replacements for vegetarians? Like I haven't thought about stuffed mushrooms in a long time. Ariel, you got any stuffed mushroom action going on? Not recently. I mean, like the trick is right, you know, is uh if you whenever I go mushroom, I like to go like super duper over the top, like mushroom on mushroom on mushroom.
+
+[17:03] So I'll be like making like a uh you know, you get your dried porcinis and you make like a porcini stock, like a hardcore porcini stock. You know what would be good? Hey, this would be good. What if you did a porcini risotto like like almost like an orancini filling, put it on top and then fried those suckers? That would be delicious, right?
+
+[17:23] Yeah, yeah. So the trick with the That would be pretty good. Yeah, right? The trick is is to cook down so the part of the mushroom that you're gonna stuff into, or you could just forget the mushroom entirely and just do porcini porcini orancini, which by the way, sounds oh, with the chopped up mushroom stuffing, duck cells in the middle, boom, boom! That is gonna be delicious right there.
+
+[17:44] That's gonna be delicious. Porcini risotto with like cheese stock with uh the as well as mushrooms inside of the mushrooms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just do like risotto style, just cook it a little bit drier, let it set up, right? And then I would put a little uh I would make like a chop up like mushroom of your choice, not something heavy like a porcini, something light like portobello or even regular buttons, cut them up, saute them down into like a nice, almost like a duck cells, like you would use on like a beef wellington or something like this, and then uh just like put a little bit of that in the center of the Arancini ball, take it around, you know, uh bread fry, and watch everyone go, oh my god, mushrooms, ash mushrooms are so good.
+
+[18:28] So good. Like, don't you think that sounds like it sounds delicious? You made me you made me start thinking. I was thinking about um like a uh fall squash as well, like uh squash risotto with those mushrooms, uh with like some chicken skin on top or something like that. You know what my mom used to make?
+
+[18:43] That's just totally separate. She used to make a uh a pumpkin-based lasagna. So not a red sauce, a pumpkin-based sauce. And so it's it's fundamentally it's like a pumpkin soup with ri with with ricotta and you know parmigiano, and to to tighten it up, she would toss into the sauce cavitelli along with the pasta sheets so that it wouldn't get too loose. Wow, that sounds delicious.
+
+[19:05] It was, and she put mushrooms in, so it all ties together. Boom boom boom. All right, so go ahead. Squash, yeah. What do you got for me?
+
+[19:12] You you're gonna do squash uh risotto? Like a squash puree inside the um risotto, like I don't know, finish it off and then uh with the porcinies and stuff, um, and then top it all off with some uh crispy chicken skin. That's a crunch. I love I love myself some crispy chicken skin. I think people who don't like crispy chicken skin, they they have some issues.
+
+[19:29] They have some like you know, non-cooking issues, they have more like mental issues. There's people who don't eat chicken. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. That is not true, Booker. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
+
+[19:44] It's the the actual correct statement. Yeah, the correct statement is everyone's entitled to their incorrect opinion. That's that's what you're allowed to say. Like if you don't eat chicken skin, that's fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:56] Like you're a vegetarian, like you know, whatever, you grew up slaughtering chickens for a living and you just can't look at them anymore. Uh you know, whatever, yeah. You raise chickens for fighting and you think that using them for food is beneath the chicken. Great. But it's hard to argue that crispy chicken skin is delicious.
+
+[20:13] I mean, because it just is. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[20:16] Anyway, tw uh if you make any of this stuff, please uh tweet back on uh at cooking issues and let us know how it worked out. Oh, with with the risotto? Absolutely. With the risotto, so like you you like add wine into it as you're as you're kind of stirring and sauteing it. If you take some dried porcinis, rehydrate them in the wine, and then use the like mushroom wine, it'll be really good.
+
+[20:37] Ooh, I like that. So I'm gonna play the part of Mills Norrin, like you know, who I used to work with at the French Culinary Studio and talking recently. Nils Norrin, his favorite fun fact was that all of the porcinies. I can't do a Nils Norrin accent right now, I haven't worked up to it, but like all the porcinis come from Sweden and then are shipped back to Italy and sold as Italian porcinis to the Swedes. I can buy that.
+
+[20:58] Yeah. Yeah, we used to get like a ton in Denmark, like wild forage. And Denmark's like fake Sweden. Now that they're all famous, yeah. Yeah, sometimes they'd get them straight from Sweden.
+
+[21:07] So correct me if I'm wrong. Denmark is Sweden plus pigs. Right? And it's flat. And it's flat.
+
+[21:15] Yeah, yeah. But there's a there's a famous, there's a famous like uh story that um sometimes the Swedish police will like pull over a driver in Sweden and they'll like talk to the talk to the motorist and be like, oh man, this guy's definitely drunk. And then they'll realize he was just speaking Danish. Well Danish sounds more German than any, whatever. Okay, why don't we get into this?
+
+[21:36] I'm just making fun of Denmark because they're riding high on a culinary cloud right now, so they can take it. You know what I mean? The Danish word for porcini is Karl Johanswampa. Wait, Carl Johans Swampa? Swampa's mushroom.
+
+[21:49] And who's this Karl Johannes? It's his mushroom. Yeah, but who is he? Who's Karl Johann? The dude with mushrooms.
+
+[21:54] That's crazy, crazy country. Can't believe can't believe that that exists. Anyway, Dave, were you saying something? No, no. Oh.
+
+[22:01] Alright. So uh let's get to some other cooking stuff. Uh so okay, no information on the Sears all other than that Amazon has quite enough of them. And how Nastasia, how many do we have on the water? 24.
+
+[22:12] They should be there, but they're not. Sears all on the water. But how like there's another 2400 on the water? Well, they should be there. They should be on land, on dry land.
+
+[22:21] They're not. But they're not. No. Okay. Uh spinzalls.
+
+[22:25] We still have spinzalls in stock and uh in uh modernist pantry, so you can get them there, and then hopefully by the Thanksgiving time we'll have them on Amazon. Who the heck knows, right? We're supposed to get another five, six hundred in by the end of the year. Uh I was doing some spinzall work yesterday on you ready for it? Durian.
+
+[22:42] I was spinning some durians. It has a horrible stench. Yeah, so I went and bought a durian. So uh I've said this before on the air that uh I had this kind of amazing moment years ago when I made a durian custard in a pressure cooker, like strictly by accident. So durian, speaking of funk, animal based funk, right?
+
+[23:04] Uh animal like funk. Fruit-based funk. Yeah, but with the notes, it it's a it's a fruit that smells like it's got an animal y thing to it. Yeah, right. Sulfur compounds in the case of durian, I think.
+
+[23:14] I believe so. Yeah. Uh and so as everyone who thinks about this knows, like sulfur compounds, very reactive, weird things happen, right? In general, a lot of these very reactive. Yes.
+
+[23:25] Yes, yes. So that's why uh when you pressure cook things that have sulfur compounds in them, they change radically. Often they mellow. So mustard seeds, mellow, onions, all alliums completely mellow out in the uh in the pressure cooker. Uh well known fact, um, it happens.
+
+[23:42] Uh and so what I you know what I once pressure cooked a durian because I was like, oh, this smells like it's sulfur-y stuff. Let me throw the durian into the pressure cooker. And the issue is durian is so thick that it And stinky. Yes, that it cooks down and it carameli literally caramelizes, not like in the my not in the myard sense, like because the temperature actually gets higher than it's you literally pyrolize the it turns the sugar turns brown. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:10] And there's also put there's also waiting, so let me get into it. So it's okay, so I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it now that I have the spinz all, I'm gonna try to clarify the durian so it doesn't scorch when you're reducing it. And so I went and bought a durian, which by the way, they're expensive. They're super expensive. They're not cheap.
+
+[24:26] They're super expensive. I got 500 grams of pulp out of like a how much did that weigh, Booker, that durian that we bought? Uh five pounds. Yeah. But it seems way heavier because of the spikes.
+
+[24:40] Yeah. Anyway, so I opened the durian and immediately Booker's like, oh and then I start blending the durian pulp. And by the way, durian is so uh durian has like some sort of stuff in it that makes it incredibly custardy. It like it's got an amazing custardy texture. So it didn't break at all.
+
+[25:00] So then I added some water to it and it still didn't break at all. So I'm blending it and Booker's like and then I throw it into the spinzole and I start spinning it and Booker's like and he was actually cursing. I told him specifically beforehand we were talking about the durian that he was not allowed to curse on the air because it's a family show but what were you saying without using curses Booker what were you saying about the durian yesterday? It had I was like it stinks in here. And he was like he's like he's like I want to go get nose clips and so anyway so then this guy knocks on my door and he he's like we're looking okay so for those of you that don't know uh my building has been without gas because like some idiot put a screwdriver through the main gas line to the building like you know a couple of months ago and once you put a gas once you ruin the gas line they shut off gas to the whole building and then they have to check every individual line branch and fixture individually before they turn it back on.
+
+[26:01] A resident did this or a worker worker but my my building is is three elevator black three elevator banks 20 floors each bank right so it's big building and so it took them it I don't even know if they started it weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, weeks to get the permit, right? Because someone's got to stamp the permit. And then they have to test everything. So we might we potentially still are months away from having gas. So this guy comes to the door, and he's like, uh, someone's complaining that there might be a gas leak up here.
+
+[26:31] I was like, I was like, and I, you know, I went back into my New York mode. So I'm like, gas leak, there's no gas in the whole building. In the whole building, there's no gas. How can there be a gas leak? He's like, oh yeah, maybe they meant over in the in the in the other building, and he leaves.
+
+[26:45] I was like, hey. It was a durian. It smells like just like gas. And so, like, when Jen, when my wife got home, she was like, oh my God. It was so bad when I was spinning the stuff at night that uh it was so bad with spinning the stuff at night that Jen literally woke up like the stench, woke her up from a sound sleep, and she came out to try to like find out like what the h holy hell is going on in in our uh apartment.
+
+[27:11] It's like smelling salts. Yeah, but it's a sign of a good durian, right? That it stinks like this. And now here's the messed up part. So it turns out durian has some sort of pertinaceous something in the juice, even once it's treated with SPL.
+
+[27:24] Is that what makes it stink? I don't know, actually, uh where the sulfur stuff is what makes it stick. I don't know. But the the the smell itself is probably not a protein booker, but the um I don't know what it is, to be honest. It could be enzymatically derived from an amino acid.
+
+[27:38] Oh, but there you go. Well, you know, that's why you should bring a real scientist on when you talk. Why are the acids so mean? The what amino acids? Yeah, they're so mean to your notes.
+
+[27:49] They're so uh mean to your notes. Oh, I get it. Uh, very strong. That's is that your first chemistry joke? One of them.
+
+[27:56] Yeah. So that's strong. Uh Ariel will use that in the future. So uh, anywho, this is what I was saying, you know, like father like son. Yeah.
+
+[28:06] Anyway, I wish I could come up with something like that. So here's the point. So it didn't clarify uh very well. So I pressure cooked the juice that was left over, and unfortunately, the gaskets in my coon recon are gone, and so it it leaks steam a little bit and it reduced over the 45 minute pressure cooking. And when I opened it, it had characteristic clotting like you get when you pressure cooked milk, which means that it was a protein, there was a protein in it, they clotted together.
+
+[28:32] It's denatured. Yeah, formed like a raft, almost like a you know, like you know those milk cookies that they those like milk protein, like when you cook down like in the milk skins. Yeah. Yeah. But like crunchy anyway, so it formed that and a really good caramelized durian juice that I had killed the funk on, but it was a little over, tasted a little burnt.
+
+[28:51] It was maybe like, you know, when you take something like and you take it five degrees too high, and it just tastes a little bit burnt, so it's like still okay, but it's like uh I wish it wasn't that like that. Then I took the durian puree, put it that was left over from the spinning, which was very smooth, obviously, because it was in spinz all. Then I pressure cooked that in a container in water, and it killed the smell, and it was actually quite good. Didn't brown as much because it wasn't reducing, it was in a water bath for the pressure cooking. But so anyway, so preliminary success, but I'm not gonna do that in my house again.
+
+[29:25] And Jen, I was like, Jen's like, when you open the new bar, Dave, how the hell are you gonna do this? Everyone's gonna you can't cook durian in your freaking goal is to have I want to make a durian old-fashioned. So if you take the kind of like nice fruity notes of a durian and remove enough of the offensive kind of uh funk stuff such that it's not off-putting, which the syrup is not, but it's still characteristically durian. If you can do that, it would make a fantastic, like old-fashioned with like a pineapple garnish, like you know, like a you take like a lily infusion into pineapple, garnish that with like a whiskey old-fashioned with durian syrup, everybody wins. But Jen's like no one will step foot in your freaking bar if it's not and I have to admit, even I was like, my eyes were watering with the stench a little bit.
+
+[30:11] I was like, man, because when it's spinning, right? When it's spinning, when you're blending it, you're volatilizing all that stuff. And when you're spinning, you're volatilizing all that stuff. So anyway, that was my durian. And Booker was like, I need clothespins, Dad, to shut my nose.
+
+[30:26] You're you're not being very uh what's the word? Understanding. What are you, Booker? But it smelled terrible. I promised I wouldn't swear on the radio.
+
+[30:36] You're doing good. Um you said what did you say? So I Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. You can it's okay.
+
+[30:43] It's okay to hold back. Anyways, you want to take a call? Sure, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, Ariel, it's Nick Devlin in the UK. Hey, how are you doing?
+
+[30:52] I'm good. How are you guys? Good. Excellent, thank you. Excellent.
+
+[30:56] I have a Dave, I have a Hustino related question for you. Ah, yes, true. Um we're making uh uh Manhattan style drink with uh a peach infused rye, uh, but with them batching and then holding uh pre-diluting patching and then holding a minus five Celsius in the freezer. And it's going cloudy. Hmm.
+
+[31:20] After how long? If you had any thoughts. After how long? Immediately or or or uh week, two weeks, and then because we're trying to batch in in reasonable size volumes, but right, and it's just peaches, booze, vermouth. Peaches, booze, pectinex, uh, and then uh coffee americana.
+
+[31:47] Okay. Um yeah. So typically, um I have ascribed uh re clouding in um spun liquors to uh a couple of things. In in protein based things, it's typically um protein aggregation. So protein that is solubilized, like whey protein, for instance, will aggregate over time in the presence of alcohol, lose its solubility, and flock out and then settle, right?
+
+[32:16] So in milk washing situations, that's typically what's going on. That's not what's going on in this situation because uh there's not that much protein in the peach uh that wouldn't spin out when you're spinning it out. I think what's happening is dried like fully dried fruits like peaches, fully dried fruits like apricots have so much pectin in them that um even during the spin out, I think there's probably some residual pectin. Pectin is also unstable in the presence of alcohol and over time will join to create a haze or a cloud. I've had that happen making like bitters before with like citrus peel.
+
+[32:57] Right. So what I would recommend uh is uh hit it with pectinx again. Uh and that sh that should kill any of the residues, unless it's unless it's been functionalized so much that the pectinics can't attack it anymore, and then see whether it settles out on you. If it settles out, I would say it's it's most likely a pectin haze. That m most likely.
+
+[33:17] I mean it's in fact I think I I don't remember whether I answered it or not. Uh so I'm gonna talk about it again later, but uh Nastasia, I answered that pectin question last week, the person who had the quince problem. Yeah. I answered it. I'll say probably a little bit more about it.
+
+[33:29] But pectin and alcohol is very uh interesting and you know, um it's a well-known test of pectin, uh, that it will uh it will aggregate and gel in the presence of um alcohol. I don't know, frankly, what the temperature relation is on that, whether the freezer is exc I mean I assume it is accelerating it, but I assume it desolubilizes it because pectin gets less soluble as it gets colder. Yeah, and if it's actually frozen, you'll be like preferentially freezing the water and the pectin will be more exposed to the alcohol. Right. Do you think that could be something?
+
+[33:58] Especially if it's already prediluted, it's at a low ABV. It could be definitely. Um also remember in a brown, so when you say it hazes, when it warms back up, does it unhaze or is it stay cloudy when it warms back up? It it unhazes. Ah.
+
+[34:15] So ah, that is a oak polyphenol phenomenon, probably. So all brown liquors, when they're over chilled, haze, and then when they warm up, they'll uncloud. So chill filtering works. Yeah. So um and it could be that the combination of the peach and the thing somehow clouds at a different temperature than just regular Manhattans alone.
+
+[34:38] But I used to at the bar use as a visual indication of the correct drinking temperature that uh it went it goes from being cloudy back to being clear. And you know, then that corresponds, not because of a physics reason, but just because it happens to correspond to the proper the the coldest proper temperature at which I'll serve in Manhattan. So also like if you're at a if your freezer is minus five, that's a very special freezer. You're using a dipper, uh like an ice cream dipper freezer or something like that. Because most most freezers are going to be rocking around minus 20 Celsius.
+
+[35:18] Oh no we just we just jerry rigged it with a with a PID controller to turn it on and off. So it does it's not absolutely minus five but it hovers between minus five because minus five shouldn't cloud minus five should still be not cloudy. So it's it's interesting to me that um it could you know it's interesting to me that that happens it could be like some combination of the oak and the I mean they're different phenomena and I don't know I mean Ariel know much better whether those phenomena have any sort of interaction pectin hazing versus the polyphenol like the oak what's it's I don't know what really is but why oak elagitanins? There you go. Yeah.
+
+[35:59] Yeah. Uh but like do those would it would they interact with the pectin in any way? I'm I'm not sure I know that they interact with protein a lot but like that's how astringency works. Um I would have to look into that more. Do you remember the old detergent ad protein gets out protein?
+
+[36:23] No I don't it's one of those stupid things. Protein gets out protein. They're like trying to tell you that this this detergent had protein in it presumably some sort of enzymatic garbage that it had in it. And they're like and protein gets out protein. Like that has meaning that's like have you seen this there's this uh there's this advertisement I forget what it's for I don't know let's say it's like moderate to severe plaxoriasis because I have no idea I can't keep track of all the medicines that are advertised on TVs these days.
+
+[36:47] Yeah it's always moderate to severe something. Moderate to severe something. And they're like, cause six is greater than one. We act on six things. The other one acts on one.
+
+[36:55] Six, by the way, greater than one. That's why I love advertising. Like written by people who have no idea what's going on with the actual product. I love advertisements written by people that have no understanding of the underlying action of what they're doing. Don't you?
+
+[37:08] Love it. By the way, Nick Devlin is our com sole and uh our our differential our partial differential equation modeling expert. Did you know that? Experts pushing it, but um I knew he was like a physics person. He's a uh sustainable energy house uh person but trying to make the heat modeling trying to make and and Nick correct correct me if I'm wrong most uh most people uh try to go to high tech when they're doing that and don't don't just do the simple things to make their houses more efficient.
+
+[37:38] Isn't that what you told me? Yeah that's exactly you were listening. Yes. Yes that can be said so many things in my when I when we met up in person in Edinburgh I was functionally asleep. So it probably looked as though everyone was speaking to a mannequin because I was just kind of like sitting erect but I was in fact absorbing information.
+
+[37:58] By the way for those of you that don't know me that's the only function that I have on earth is I absorb information and then later can spit it back out. So anyway. So yeah so for those of you that are like you know thinking about spending eight zillion dollars on whatever system to make your house more efficient you probably haven't done the simple stuff. That's that's often true. Yeah I find by the way Nick same thing with cooking I'll have a but so when you were talking about hitting it again with Pec 10 X are you do you think in the diluted state or or uh when I've spun the booze out the first time and then hit it again with pectin and s or just wait, chill, chill it and see what happens or does the booze on its own cloud?
+
+[38:37] No. I mean, sometimes on some batteries we sometimes see a small amount of haze um okay to me that the that the booze on its own does not cloud leads me closer to the um the uh the oak base stuff being the problem because uh the clouding on an oak-based liquor gets worse and worse at lower temperatures when it's more and more diluted up to a point because the those those tannin things that I don't know what the hell they are that Ariel was talking about, uh are less soluble in water than in alcohol. And so uh they have a tendency to complex um more in the f well reversibly compliment whatever the hell it's doing to make them cloud up uh in the freezer at dilution than pure. That's why you can stick a bottle of uh bourbon in the freezer and it's or rye in the freezer and it's fine, and then once you make a Manhattan and put it in the freezer, it clouds. I don't so if the booze doesn't do it on its own, sounds like and maybe the pectin is ha making it happen at a slightly warmer temperature than it otherwise would, but it sounds like you're really at a uh a temperature-based reversible temperature based issue that has to do with the oak.
+
+[39:59] That's my guess. But hit it with pectin, either before pectin X, either before or after, and just see. I would just do a small test and and and see. It's a real hassle to have to re spin stuff, but empiricism always trumps theory. Yes, that's true.
+
+[40:14] Yeah. And that but and that also goes back to you know what we're saying about how people don't do the easy stuff. Same thing happens in cooking. People like all these complex theories, and as Nastasia says, just go in the kitchen and do it. Why don't you just do it?
+
+[40:26] Why are you asking me all this theoretical stuff? Why don't you just go cook it? Yeah, see what happens. How many times have you said it to me? So many times.
+
+[40:31] So many times. So many times. So many times. All right, you want to take a break? All right, Nick.
+
+[40:36] Good to hear from you. We're gonna take a break. All right, come back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts of the seed: the bran, the germ, and the endosperm.
+
+[40:59] The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left.
+
+[41:18] It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it. Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains.
+
+[41:45] Learn more at Bob'sredmill.com/slash podcast. And we're back. We got uh we got uh Booker, we got Ariel, we got Matthew. Although Matthew, you haven't been saying much. Say a word.
+
+[42:02] Say something. I'm between the mics, it's alright. Between the mics? Yeah. Nice.
+
+[42:06] All right. So between two mics. So we had a question in from uh, hey, you know what? Ariel might know about this. It's good.
+
+[42:13] I think I might have addressed it a little bit last week, but we'll readdress it since uh Ariel's here. Kyle writes in about uh cocktail aging. By the way, before we leave, we'll talk Thanksgiving. Just remind me when we have like a little bit of time left, we'll do Thanksgiving. Uh I've been intrigued by uh I think we did do this by Suvi low temp method of mimicking the effects of cocktail aging.
+
+[42:33] Uh I've recently started tinkering with the concept uh with mixed results. I'm aware that Tony Kiliaro has been doing this technique for many years, and more recently has produced a line of bottled Negroni. What do you think about using Negroni as its own plural there? Bottled Negroni. Would an American would say Negroni's?
+
+[42:49] Mm-hmm. But it so the Negroni is named after a person named Negroni. Okay, well, yeah, but Italian lady, Nastasia, like Well, if it's a last name, then it would be Negroni's, right? Like if it was a Negroni family, the Italians would still say, well, it doesn't matter. They wouldn't say they'd be like, what's up with those Negronies?
+
+[43:08] There's no Negrono. Right. There's no Negrono. Negroni is the singular. Well, maybe you should come up with a Negrono.
+
+[43:14] Do you think I don't think anyone would order that? Uh excuse me, one Negroni is a Negrono. And I'll have one with my Panino when I go to Halvin. Right? I mean, that's like.
+
+[43:25] Anyone who says Panino, by the way, what are your thoughts on that? I would like a panino. Like have you ever seen that? I've heard it happen, right? Oh yeah.
+
+[43:32] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[43:35] I should, you know, since when am I the great populist? It's not how I am, but what I'm saying is, like, I mean, a little bit, I guess, but you know. I just think it's weird when someone says it's like it's similar to how for years I resisted using whatever Starbucks Starbucks was trying to tell me to order the sizes. I would Oh, like a grandeur. I would always say I would like a small.
+
+[43:58] I would say, oh, or like my classic one with well, because I only really get espresso, all I get. I was like, I will have a double espresso. They're like, dopio, double. Dopio, double. And we see how many times they can go back.
+
+[44:09] And eventually both of us would just stand in silence staring at each other, and the coffee would appear. But no one would give up. I feel like there's situations where you're technically right, but you're a jerk because you're wasting the time of a person who's underpaid to deal with you. Why not do it in crowded places? No, but the thing is your time because they want you to like just use their vocabulary.
+
+[44:31] Well, but I don't want to be forced into some stupid. First of all, they're all Americans. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be forced into using some dumb. I'm taking your side.
+
+[44:40] No, but I'm saying that like the clerk doesn't make that rule. They probably have to say that. But you're paid, like, so let me take a $8 an hour to like argue with you about what they're what corporate is making them say. So in her mind, here's here's what happens. He's like, I come up, she's like, please not, please not, please not.
+
+[45:01] Yeah, I'll have a double espresso. Oh. Like that. And then because she knows she has to go through it. I feel a little worse for her, right?
+
+[45:11] Lord, give me strength. But let me ask you a question. What is your feeling on allowing yourself to get look? The Starbucks corporation has made a made a decision you don't enjoy, right? You're not so you're not so angry about it that you won't hand them your cash.
+
+[45:25] But you don't like it, right? Your only point of interface is with this person. So she is bearing the brunt of it, but I mean, what else are you supposed to do? You could write a letter. Write a letter?
+
+[45:40] Tweet at them. Tweet? Yeah, when you tweeted airlines when you're like delayed or there's some other problem, they'll usually respond to that. Whatever. I mean, it's a it's a greater problem of like the What if you say to them, I understand this is not your problem, and you're just saying what you have to say, but I will only say double.
+
+[46:02] And they'll say, I understand, but I have to say this. Well, you can say you could say double espresso, and she says dopio espresso, and you both know what each other is talking about, you can be like, okay with that. It's kind of like if you're in Montreal and like you're speaking English to a clerk and they're speaking French back at you, and you both speak like slowly enough that you know what the other is saying, but neither of you is like such a jerk that you're going to insist that one says one the other way. You're like uh you're like a diplomat here. I like it.
+
+[46:30] I like it. Ariel the diplomat. So anyway. Yeah. Uh so Tony has been.
+
+[46:37] So we're back to we're back to Negronies. Remember where we started, aging Negronies. Remember, everyone remember where we started. Tony has produced a line of bottled Negroni that have undergone gentle circulation at low temperature for an unspecified amount of time to ideally to produce a more mellow and subtle. Subtill, subtle, subtle town.
+
+[46:55] We're going to subtle town, subtle beverage. Uh do you have any suggestions as to time and temperature for circulating stirred and/or built cocktails when the intent is to mimic the effects of classic bottle aging? By the way, built cocktails shouldn't age that much because you haven't really changed the proof appreciably, and you're not adding any wine based stuff. So I don't think they'll change as radically. A built cocktail is not gonna change as radically unless the syrup is fruit-based or has something that's gonna move, right?
+
+[47:21] So like certain things move and certain things don't move. Like uh you straight aged distillates that are basic just distillates that have been aged tend after they've been bottled to move not very much. Say it's true. They don't move very much. Maybe they move, but not a lot.
+
+[47:41] You know what I mean? Whereas things that have anything that is uh anything that's still reactive, like fruits or any non-distillate-based stuff, you know, that they tend to move when they're in a bottle and can be changed by the temperature which they're stored, the time at which they're stored, the oxygen level above the bottle, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um blah blah blah baddy. Anyway, uh, do we have any times, uh temperatures? Also, do you leave some air in the bag when circulating to allow for mild oxidation or pull a vacuum and remove all air?
+
+[48:14] My first attempt was, I believe, a too low a temperature or too short of a duration to produce noticeable results. It was a 48 C. My second trial was too high because the bag ballooned up when I was concerned about it popping at 58C. It really shouldn't balloon at 58. Any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated, Kyle.
+
+[48:31] So, first of all, like heating wine, so there's wine in an agroni, so I would imagine that heating it is going to produce more matterized, oxidized kind of notes. Uh and the oxygen, what do you think? Yes. But what do you think? What do you any any uh suggestions as to time or temperature or anything like that?
+
+[48:54] And what do you think the primary uh thing of a jig is with the with the bottle aging these things? The primary like axis of change? Yes. And do you like the bigger? I mean, but bear in mind, bear mine.
+
+[49:08] So if you're adding you're adding vermouth, like that's already somewhat oxidized. Yes. But we all know what happens to vermouth when you like it can be too oxidized. What what causes the peanut peanut y flavor of like oxidized martini and rossi? Like the classic crappy oxidized, overused vermouth peanut taste.
+
+[49:27] I wanna say acid aldehyde, but that's you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah. It's nasty. I don't like it. Yeah.
+
+[49:35] Do you like it? Not really. Yeah. And it's turned me off of martini and rossi, which other people seem to still like, but like the the growing up with that kind of half open crap bottle of has ruined the whole that whole thing for me. Right.
+
+[49:50] But so but you would you still agree that the main axis of change is the vermouth? It has to be, right? Well, you know what though? Kampari moves in the presence of acid. I know this for a fact.
+
+[50:01] Like in the presence of acid, compari gets much more intensely bitter over time. Now, the not that much acid present, it's just the acid, the fruit acid from the vermouth. Right. But still like a reasonable amount of acid. Right.
+
+[50:16] What are your thoughts on forced uh temperature aging in wines? Uh who does that? People, so there's a famous guy whose name escapes me because he was famous in the 1980s, who uh had an amazing wine cellar, and his wine cellar was always at a fairly high constant but high temperature. And his argument was that his wines just aged faster than people who stored their wines in normal cellar temperatures. Um, that's why rums age faster in the Caribbean than scotches do in Scotland.
+
+[50:52] Yeah, it's cold in Scotland. You know what I mean? But but and why and why you can have a longer age scotch than you can a bourbon, although bourbon's also newer barrels, so there's more extractives. It's a double whammy as we say on Francais. But the Well, I mean, so the Arhenius equation says that for every 10, I might be butchering this, but 10 degrees Celsius rays in temperature, you'll double the rate of chemical reactions that are happening.
+
+[51:19] Yeah, I mean in roughly, right? Yeah. On that order. Yeah. On that order.
+
+[51:23] Well, that's what this guy was arguing. But so the put the point is they the problem is is that not everything shifts at the same time. So you can't ship you can't sh you can't speed shift most cooking uh things because they're too complicated because the rates don't trace 100% because it's only first order correct. The rates all increase but not to the same degree. Bing dingo.
+
+[51:44] And that's why also when you're doing uh infusions, when you change the overall infusion rate, you change the you change the resultant because things don't scale like infusion rates of different compounds don't scale linearly with pressure, with temperature, with solvent. You know what I mean? It's so it's like anyway. My point is if you like it, do it. If you don't like it, don't do it.
+
+[52:10] Okay, we're going to the end, so you better talk Thanksgiving. Oh geez Louise, but I had some pectin, I had a methyl cell. Oh, by the way. Be thankful for what you get. Oh so uh so Justin also wrote in uh uh a while ago with a bunch of other questions, but he was interested in doing low temperature uh evaporation and asked about freeze uh freeze thaw concentration, similar to what's doing with Applejack.
+
+[52:33] And I went to uh Cuisine Solutions, you know, Bruno Gusseau's uh uh company, uh Bruno Gusot and Cray, you know, the the the guy, the Just Temp guy, you know, who's like doesn't believe in low temperature because he's just tamp. But anyway, so he uh he has this new thing, not new, but it's cryo concentration, where on purpose they're doing freeze thaw and they're spinning it out in things like salad spinners and whatnot, and they're doing freeze thaw concentration on uh on stuff up to a fairly high bricks. And it's pretty interesting, and it's it's fairly it's it's morally equivalent to freeze-thaw agar clarification or a freeze-thaw um or free-staw gelatin clarification because you're ex preferentially extracting the stuff out that melts first, which is why you know why ice one. Yeah, right, but in a non-alcohol base. Because the one that actually that they use, right?
+
+[53:22] The the analogy that they use is when you buy an icy or slushy or slurpy and you stick your straw in the bottom and just keep on a sucking without stirring, right? You end up with white ice and all of the syrup in your mouth. So, anyway, so yes, you could attempt so I would look up cryo conservation on the cuisine solutions website. Is this Thanksgiving related? It is about to be Thanksgiving related.
+
+[53:44] I was I here's my pitch. When all of you guys out there are thinking about what you're gonna do for Thanksgiving, take into consideration this idea: two turkeys, two turkeys, two turkeys, two turkeys. One turkey? No. How many turkeys, Ariel?
+
+[53:57] Zero. No. Two turkeys. First of all, if you're gonna cook a big Thanksgiving, this is for people who are gonna cook a big Thanksgiving. Or turkey skin.
+
+[54:06] Well, uh, that is actually is that true? Yes, you want to have more turkey snacks. Yeah, more surface. But the the the issue here, the issue is is that big turkeys A are more difficult to cook than small turkeys properly because they're it's just it's the how the way the physics works, and they take longer. But you can cook one if you're gonna cook a l cook a small-sized bird whole, much easier to get a small turkey to be decently done, and we can talk about that later, whether it's brining that just the breast via injection, whether it's low temping, whatever.
+
+[54:36] You need to bring a whole bird to the table because hello because of reasons, because of America. And then, yeah, yeah, and then and then issues people, but then your second turkey, you break it down into small pieces, and you chicken fry it. Right? And you can cut them into the same sizes that you would chicken fry, and then you have a basket of chicken-fried turkey. If you wanted to, you could pan off or catch torture roast individually, whatever.
+
+[55:00] But break apart one turkey and serve it piece by piece, cook it exactly the way it wants to be cooked, or rather the way you want it to be cooked, but to its specification. And then just do a smaller whole roast bird that you bring to the table, and you know what? Everyone will be happy. The roast bird they can eat for for leftovers on turkey sandwiches, which is kind of what God wants you to do with the turkey anyway, because turkey sandwiches are so delicious. So anyway, so uh more Thanksgiving questions, but take that advice when you're planning this year cooking issues.
+
+[55:36] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[55:57] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[56:21] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today, the video is a good idea. This show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com/slash podcast. My name is Hannah Fordin. I'm the membership coordinator at Heritage Radio Network, but even before I joined the team, I loved listening to HRN during my subway commute.
+
+[0:30] It made the time go quickly and left me feeling inspired for the day ahead. HRN listeners tune in from all over the world. But there are a few traits that we all have in common, no matter where we listen from a curious palate, the fierceness to make a difference, and a hunger for lifelong learning about the culinary world. As you know, Heritage Radio Network is a listener-supported nonprofit. To deliver the most ambitious, entertaining and of the moment stories in 2018, we need your help.
+
+[1:02] We need to raise 150,000 by December 31st to accomplish these goals and to keep your favorite shows on the air. Together, we can make this HRN's most exciting, impactful, and delicious year yet. No matter how much you choose to give, you'll feel awesome next time you tune in, knowing that we wouldn't be here without you. Become a member by donating today. Join us at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate, and you'll immediately start enjoying benefits such as VIP invitations to HRN events, where you will mix and mingle with your favorite hosts.
+
+[1:40] Plus, we have great member swag. Show up your HRN pride with a t-shirt or keep your hands safe in the kitchen with an HRN pot holder. Memberships also make a perfect holiday gift for all the foodies in your life. This year, why not give the gift of food radio? You'll hear your generosity and action for the year to come.
+
+[2:01] Help keep our lights on and our mics hot by pledging your support today at heritage radio network.org slash donate. Thanks for listening. On the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Not joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez because she has family obligations to attend to.
+
+[2:45] We do have my man Dave in the booth. How are you doing? Doing good. How about you? Doing well.
+
+[2:50] And special special guest, special guest host today, Jack Shram. Jack Shram, formerly the head bartender of Booker and Dax, future head bartender of the as yet unnamed, as yet unannounced bar that we will be starting sooner rather than later. Isn't that our hope, Jack? I think you just announced it. Well.
+
+[3:12] Everybody knows there's gonna be a bar. It's just what, where, when. Okay. How. Also, some of you uh who came to Booker and Dax and had some of Jack's fine drinks may not know this.
+
+[3:23] Uh formerly worked at Milk Bar, can answer all of your milk bar questions. Uh, also uh formerly was a food studies person at NYU. So he when he went home uh on breaks, what do you study some? I study food! Food ma!
+
+[3:44] Right? No, Ma was very supportive. Everyone was supportive of it. They yeah, they're food food humans. Yeah.
+
+[3:44] So care about what they eat. You didn't have to think about it all. No, there was no no need to explain. Or did a butcher in high school. Like it it made sense.
+
+[3:57] All right. It was a logical move. What kind of butcher was it? Just a small family-owned. It was like a hundred years old in the community in Alamo, California.
+
+[4:05] Where the heck is Alamo, California? East Bay, the just like 40 minutes east of San Francisco, in the not very exciting part of the Bay Area. Remember the LMO? Exactly. That's a that's a different LMO.
+
+[4:17] Different, very different. Thanks, Dave. But it is maybe Alamo the car rental place is from where you where you were working. I doubt it. Is that from Alamo, Texas?
+
+[4:25] I would assume so. Hey, interesting fact. So um so I I think I told Jack this, and some people have heard this. My uh my stepfather's father, who you know, died this year in his mid-90s, was a butcher for many years, and his his father actually started the butcher, came over, came over from Italy in uh in like you know 1906 or whatever, started the you know, worked for a couple of years, started a butcher shop in the north end, and uh when he died, I got the you know his butcher knives, and I just hung it up his scale. Oh, that's awesome.
+
+[5:00] I don't have a picture of it, yeah. Check out this, it's 1912 patents, so you know it's before like 1924. So it was like early on in their shop and stayed in their shop the entire time they were open, and it was made in Boston, which is where their shop was. It's still got like the inspection sticker, the legal for use inspect like tag on it. And it's an old spring scale.
+
+[5:24] Oh, it's pretty sweet. Does it still function? Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.
+
+[5:28] Craftsmanship. But here's the thing, right? It hung low in the butcher shop. So the top of it was impeccable. Like clean, impeccable.
+
+[5:37] Yeah, because people could see over the counter. Underneath, right? It had like where the two, because it's a hanging scale. It's an old school hanging scale. And where the two rods go down to hold the platform onto the spring weight thing.
+
+[5:53] Uh like decades of like lamb grease had oozed over, and there was like this like, you know, like these dams of lamb grease underneath. That's pretty sweet. There's no dirty floor, like the areas of a butcher that customers can't see. It's it's terrifying. The things that you'll find.
+
+[6:17] Yeah. Decades of animal, just raw animal buildup. Well, I mean, it solidifies over time, right? No, absolutely. But still, you know, it's like it's like layers of sedimentary rock.
+
+[6:28] Yeah. But made of animals. And it has that, it has a texture of like asphalt. Yeah. It's like, you know, some thick fill.
+
+[6:35] Fully firm. Fully firm. Nice. I like that. I'm gonna use that in my next, in my next band.
+
+[6:41] Great. That's that'll be the title of the episode. Thanks. Fully firm? Yep, yep.
+
+[6:45] Nice. And we're not even talking about pectin methylesterase, which is something I wanted to use at the bar. Oh, by the way, call in all your questions. I said this before, but calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128, or you can uh send them on into the chat room.
+
+[7:01] But Jack Shram has all of the Booker and DAX specs that I do not. So for instance, he actually sent them to me, but I can never find them fast enough. But probably in his head, he still has most of them. So all of you, you know, who are like, how do you make the thunder nutton? I'm like, well, I know roughly how it works, but I don't know the actual actual specs.
+
+[7:20] And so we can, you know, Jack here. It's been over a year, but I've still got them all pretty good. Yeah. So Bloppins asked me for one when he sent me those uh beers to spin out, and I never sent the specs to him because I don't know. Uh, you know, like I just don't know some of these specs.
+
+[7:34] Like, unless it's my actual personal spec, I didn't have to make it on a day in, day out basis, and so I just don't know it. But Jack does, so call in all of your spec. And we're still gonna do that uh a Booker In Dax reunion uh we should do it maybe like at like as we're about to open, do a Booker In Dax reunion special. Yeah, that sounds great. Here I know everybody would be super into it.
+
+[7:56] Yeah, it's before shift, so people can come in absolutely. Yeah. So any uh any news in the world of uh foods and or drinks, Jack, that you can think of. Not not in the broader world of food. I feel like what what's exciting right now?
+
+[8:11] Is anything everything and nothing? Life is always exciting. As long as you're long as you're learning, everything's exciting. What about you, Dave? You have any cooking issues over the weekend before I get into these uh uh made beef stew and the slow cooker, nothing remarkable.
+
+[8:25] What kind of slow cooker do you own? It is oh god, I'm blanking on the name, of course now. What style? Are you an Instapot person? Well, it it is oh wait, it is an Instapot, yeah.
+
+[8:33] All right. So it's like combo, slow cooker, pressure cooker. It's great. So you're you're part of the Instapot revolution, are you? I guess.
+
+[8:40] Yeah, well, it's a genius move. I mean, like for years I was saying, why don't they combine all this crap and then, but I'm too stupid. Instead, I'm building like torch it torch attachments and and and you know spinzalls and all this other stuff. Vegetis. I never built a vegetti.
+
+[8:55] Oh, you just like to talk about it. I love to jam things into vegetables. Well, who doesn't? Yes. I like the jam.
+
+[9:01] I like to jam. You know, when I have a carrot, I like to jam my carrot into a vegetti. Obviously, that's that's what the vegetti is for. That's what the vegetti is for. Accepting carrots.
+
+[9:09] That was maybe one of our all-time greatest running gags was people calling in vegetti stuff. Anyway. So how was your beef stew? Oh, it was delicious. Yeah?
+
+[9:17] Yeah, yeah. Okay, so my problem with pressure cooked uh beef stews in general and uh all pre pressure cooker in general is fantastic for a lot of things. And you should get the hit pressure cooker book and all this, but the issue with it is remember that in a pressure cooker there is not a lot of reduction. So when you're throwing meats into a pressure cooker and cooking them a la stew style, uh they tend to be very liquidy when you pull them out. Like let's say you're doing a chili or some something like this.
+
+[9:45] And so you need to adjust your liquid levels going in, but buddy buck but but if you adjust your liquid levels too low, you scorch, you scorch, which is no good. So in general, a lot of times what I'll do is is I'll try to hover that level right around where it where it's gonna scorch. And I if you had like a real maybe your Instapot never scorches, maybe it's like good at that, or like you know, I use the uh I use the brevel now, what's it called? Like the what's it what's that the brevel called? Like it's called like the temperature freak.
+
+[10:14] It's literally called I think the temperature freak or something like this, or the precision freak. I think it has the word freak in it. Did they understand that you were their target market when they named it? I think so, because they sent me one for free. There you go.
+
+[10:25] You know, but but like is it called it Dave? Look that up. Is it temperature freak? Something like this. I don't know.
+
+[10:33] Yeah, give me a minute. Um, but so with that, you know, you're not gonna scorch uh your product because it's never gonna overshoot too much. And I guess, you know, I uh I haven't a lot of you know work with like the Queens Arts and stuff like this in terms of uh scorch. I mean, really, when you have a pressure cooker, the advantage that my problem, in fact, my uh I shouldn't say my mom doesn't listen to this, so it's fine. So my brother-in-law was like, so should we get this Instapot?
+
+[10:56] It's only a thousand watts. He doesn't talk like that. We usually get like a thousand watts for your mom because you know I thought maybe we'd get her one of these things, and I was like, thousand watts is kind of weak, right? Because my problem with these electric pressure cookers is that you're gonna want to brown your crap before you cook it in a stew form. Dave, did you brown your crap before you did your stew?
+
+[11:15] Uh no, I did not. Jesus, why? Were you following some sort of dump meal? What'd you pour freaking Dr. Pepper in the damn thing beforehand?
+
+[11:21] Yeah, I mean it essentially was like a dump meal, I guess. Yeah, I just yeah, I I've done this before. I just it's slow cooks for 12 hours, so it doesn't need browning. What? Doesn't need browning?
+
+[11:31] Oh god, here we go. What liquid did you pour in? Uh I used a combination of A1 and water. I told you this is nothing remarkable. It's just oh for God's sake.
+
+[11:43] Oh, Jesus. What's the point of being alive without the myard reactor? Don't shame me for my slow cooking. I'm not shaming you for your slow cooking. Well, slow cooking, by the way, is different from pressure cooking.
+
+[11:52] And slow cooking, you you know. Yeah, exactly. Slow cooking is a good one. We definitely brown stuff before pressure cooking. Yeah, well, uh I mean, what you're doing is you're faking those those things by it with the A1.
+
+[12:03] You're just you're using is it what is A1 anyway? Is A1 Worcestershire sauce plus ketchup plus water plus vinegar? What is it? What is A1? Sounds about, right?
+
+[12:11] But uh yeah. By the way, Worcester sauce, fantastic. Delegious product. Yeah, absolutely. Love it.
+
+[12:18] By the way, it's the Breville control freak smart induction cooker. Control freak. Control freak. Or no, William Sonoma, sorry. So it does contain the word freak.
+
+[12:28] Yes. Control freak. Freak. Anyway, uh, it's a it's a good unit. It's a great unit.
+
+[12:29] I like it. You know what I saw? Did you saw that the induction? I want induction to take over. Like, I want it to take over.
+
+[12:39] Like, you know, everyone's like, eh, my pot doesn't work. Really? Your pot doesn't work? You're like, how many pots? Like of the pots that I already owned before I had ever owned an induction, over half of them work on an induction unit.
+
+[12:50] And the other half can be like, you know, wiggled around. Yeah. The main ones that don't work is if you own any big, like inexpensive aluminum pots, like turkey fryers, which I do, obviously. You know what I mean? Anyway.
+
+[13:01] Yeah. Point being, like, IKEA now sells an induction unit for like 20 bucks. Eh. Back to what I was saying on the slow cooker. So the Instapot's only a thousand watts.
+
+[13:09] And the problem is that if you're not an enemy of quality, Dave, uh, you're gonna want to brown your meats before they go in. Or, like, let's say you're okay, did you put any onions into this stew? Yeah. Okay, thank Christ. You put some onions into this stew now.
+
+[13:23] Did you We're living in a society, you know? Right. Did you did you uh at least sweat the freaking onions? No. Okay, so if you were going to do any such things like sweating your onions or browning your meat.
+
+[13:40] I need nostasi here to back me up today. Where is she? Family obligations. So, like, my point is is that a thousand watts is a little low for browning meats. It's just a little sluggish for browning meats.
+
+[13:52] And if you're doing relatively large uh things, it takes a while for a thousand watts to heat your stuff up. Now, if you're slow cooking, who gives a crap? It's not, you know, who gives a crap? I'm a slow cooking. You're slow cooking.
+
+[14:04] Yeah. Uh who gives a crap? Even as a rice cooker, really, who gives a crap? Unless you're making a boat ton of rice. It's just really not that much of a load, and the amount of time it takes that much of a load.
+
+[14:13] And the amount of time it takes to get up to that. Like have we have we spoken about the Limbomaniacs on the show before? The song? I don't think so. But Toilets Flooded, the load won't fit.
+
+[14:24] Anyway, the uh terrible song. Terrible song. But really good musicians. You know, that's one of those Limbo maniacs. One of those Limbomaniacs was one of those groups that had a lot of good musicians with terrible lyric ideas, terrible ideas, rap terrible songs, you know, bad vocalizations.
+
+[14:42] Kind of like you two live. Yeah. I never saw them like you two. Yeah. You two, all I can think about with you too is like they lost me when they lost the ning-a-ning-a ninga.
+
+[14:52] Like I'm a big fan of you two back in the n-a-nga nga dang. Yeah, I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mean like all jangly sound? Yeah, the greatest guitar pedalist and that.
+
+[15:02] That's that's like when you two is when you hear that ning-a-ning-a-nga, you're like, oh yeah, you too. So yeah, the streets don't have a name. Yeah, I mean, but then like, you know, I'm still with them in the day two. I'm fine with that, like later on, but like this newer stuff, it's not, it's not my cup of tea. It's not I'm not with them anymore.
+
+[15:19] Anyway, lines are being drawn. So back to back to this Instapot thing. I think a thousand watts is uh what I would love to see is a 1500 watt uh induction uh cooker instapot. So like, you know, like my Zoji Rushi rice maker, which is like very high, like high wattage uh induction uh unit. I saw one, by the way, I think I mentioned this on the air.
+
+[15:41] When I went to China, I realized how far behind we are in rice cooker technology because I thought I had a really nice rice cooker, and I have the nicest rice cooker that the average person could buy here in the US. I got it as a gift, I didn't spend my own money. But I went I picked up this one in China, and I was like, damn, this is a nice rice cooker. I was like, holy crap. I picked up the rice pot and I was like, I would be proud to own this pot.
+
+[16:09] Like this, just the insert pot. I was like, this is nice. High quality. High quality. It's a rolls rice.
+
+[16:18] Oh, by the way, Jack, one of our head punsters, and we'll talk about puns and names or something. Do I need to cue up the rim shot? Oh. I don't know, James. Give me a minute.
+
+[16:25] Oh, anyway. So I asked, I asked the guy, I was like, how much does this cost? In the in, he's like, that's a that's a thousand dollars. I was like, ooh. I was like, you know what?
+
+[16:36] It feels like a thousand dollars. It feels I guess if I was gonna get married again and I ate rice every day, and everyone was in that wedding spending mood, I'd be like, get me this. Link this rice cooker. I want this thousand dollar rice cooker. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:51] Because I would use that rice cooker at least one thirtieth as much as a car. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And a car is like $30,000. Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[17:01] So, you know. You know what I mean? And you can't drive, you know, you can't, you know, I guess you can use your car as a cooking implement. There's several books written on this on using on using your tailpipe. Uh no, usually the engine block.
+
+[17:15] But most of the stuff was written for relatively older vehicles. Uh, I don't know if they ever did a motorcycle follow-up because first of all, like, you know, where the heat on your motorcycle is is really dependent on how the engine layout uh works. But I think they expected you to have some sort of like, you know, uh, you know, straight six or something like that. I don't know. I don't know what the heck they were, I don't know what they were expecting you to cook on, but they have a bunch of recipes that all, you know, boil down to wrap your crap in aluminum foil, strap it on, you know, to your engine block.
+
+[17:47] Or I think just like kind of jam it into the top into like the valve cover area and then just drive until it's done. So it's mainly items that you're not worried about overcooking. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I I would never never attempt, but in a pinch.
+
+[18:03] Well, I mean post-apocalyptic. I you wouldn't you would never attempt it. If you were driving from like San Francisco to like Yosemite or up the Sierras, you would never be like, you know what? You know what? Why not?
+
+[18:16] I'm gonna save some time at the campsite. Yeah, yeah. So you you know did I tell you that I'm not gonna get into it, I'm not gonna get into it. Like uh you're you when uh last time I was over there, I had a picnic at where the Donner Pass was, and uh literally a a picnic where the people were you know eating the people and it was all I could talk about. My wife was like I was like, A, that's disrespectful, and B, like what the hell?
+
+[18:41] That's gross. I'm trying to eat. We're talking about people eating people, and I'm like, yeah, but we're eating our picnic where the people ate the people. You know what I mean? It's like I couldn't get around it.
+
+[18:52] We're far enough removed that Donner Party jokes I think they're okay at this point. Not too soon. What about the what about the people from that plane alive in uh in Chile where they crashed and the people ate the people? They're still alive, those people who ate the people. The people who got eaten were not alive anymore.
+
+[19:07] Don't make the jokes to the people that ate the people. Don't make the people that ate the people. Yeah. All right, anyway. Oh, you got the rim shot up.
+
+[19:14] So anyway, back to the Instant Pot. I would love to see an Instant Pot like that. And also, uh, you know, you were saying before, Dave, uh, enemy, enemy of quality. I'd like to make a distinction so that everybody knows. We are all, this is the difference between a low-quality individual and an enemy of quality.
+
+[19:28] We are all low quality individuals because we are all fallible. We're all weak. We are all low quality individuals, right? The enemy of quality, we we aspire to be better quality than we are. Absolutely.
+
+[19:43] And that's that's what makes us redeemable low-quality individuals as opposed to you know, non-redeemable, right? And that's the whole thing. We are worth I feel we are worthy of making ourselves better, and therefore we're we're okay. But right, and in fact, as I've said many times, as everybody knows, if you don't have a little bit of you know, of self-loathing, how are you gonna get better? Absolutely.
+
+[20:06] You need you need to have that drive to improve. Right, all the time. If you say you're like, oh, I'm great, I'm so efficient. Everything I do is awesome. You're useless.
+
+[20:14] It means everything you do is garbage. You're done for. You'll never get better. No, you're horrible at it. You know, there anyway.
+
+[20:21] Not not not my point. But go going ahead. You want to take a call? And yeah, but an enemy of quality. Oh, although you're done.
+
+[20:27] An enemy of quality, as opposed to a low-quality individual, is someone who actively works against quality, a Satan, the devil, enemy of quality. Making the choice to not get better and to not improve systems, yeah, and actively ruining things. Yeah. Right. Like, I'm not sure where I come down on pre-browning, but we'll get into it.
+
+[20:48] Anyway, so we have a caller, Dave? Yeah, yeah. I call you on the air. Uh hi, Dave. Hi, Dave.
+
+[20:55] Um, quick uh comment about the instant pot discussion uh and the B SQ thing, just since y'all were on it for so long while I was on hold. Um instant pot. No, it's alright. Uh I'm a big fan of the Instant pot, as many people are. I was really surprised at how nice the liner in that is.
+
+[21:13] Um I sometimes will take that out and use it on the stove top. And in fact that's my big uh because the power on it's not super great like you were saying um you can get things jump started on the stovetop with the liner and then move the hot pot liner to the instant pot. So you can do all your searing over a high BTU burner and then move it you know to the instant pot proper and then it'll get up to pressure uh really quickly. Oh that's an excellent point because yeah I can't do that for instance with my rice cooker insert or with the Queznard insert because they're Teflon coated and they're not rated for that kind of stuff. But from my reading the Instapot is a an uncoated stainless insert and so it shouldn't care what the hell you do to it, right?
+
+[22:00] Yeah and the uh and the the cladding on the bottom is actually pretty thick. So it it it does a relatively good job. The only complaint is that it's sort of narrow just because it's a you know liner pot so it's not really gonna evaporate off a whole lot but it's uh it's quality. I mean it's you know for I think 65 on prime day for an instant pot. Nice.
+
+[22:23] Well that that's a really good tip actually like and I didn't because I didn't think about you because like I'm so used to those inserts not being A, either being so thin that you wouldn't like it would scorch like a like a mother if you put it onto a burner or B you know not being rated for it. Like I would never put my rice cooker bowl on a on a burner. That's a good tip. And and I are you like me when you do that? Like what I typically will do is I always uh do meats in in bat in batches and then throw them in the bowl, then throw the liquid drip off back into the thing to evaporate a little before I dump in just so I don't water everything down too much.
+
+[22:58] You follow the same kind of protocol when you're doing the pre-brown? Yeah, I do the same thing. Sometimes I'll even uh, you know, I'll get a couple of uh Dutch ovens going and then move it all just because I'm I hate, you know, it'll take you an hour to properly brown everything separately. But then if you have a couple of big things on the stove, you can just get your miropoix off, you can do your meat in batches uh more cleanup but faster. So yeah, I mean the one, yeah, I mean it'd be nice if someone figured out something because I it's just the multiple pot cleanup thing, and we'll talk about this if there's time later.
+
+[23:31] I tried I attempted to try a new cleaning technology over the weekend unsuccessfully. So and and while I have you on the air, before we go to the question that you're gonna talk about, what are your thoughts on not pre-browning or pre-sweating your alliums? Uh the alliums in particular? Uh either one, just so your thoughts. Um, I don't know.
+
+[23:52] I always uh brown it off uh beforehand, but um I I very rarely I'm always going for the darkest uh jus, the darkest gravy, the most Miarty roasty thing. And that's the thing is that if you're not doing a conventional braze uh and you don't get that evaporation, you're not getting that browning on top that you would normally get even if you didn't sear it off. Um like if you're doing an oven braise with the the lid off or something like that. So if you're gonna be doing it in a closed environment that's wet, I would always sear off first because uh there's higher uh higher temp Myard products you're not gonna get. So I I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're on the the side that's over here, you're not on the side of the booth on that.
+
+[24:40] Wait, can can we just clarify? Does the browning need to happen for both slow cooking and pressure cooking, you're saying, or just pressure cooking? Um I'm really both, but the thing is that you're cooking for so long with a slow cooker that it's gonna kinda happen. Right. But you know what this sounds like, people start stuff with the sear at the beginning, all those flavor compounds also develop over the course of the twelve hour cook time.
+
+[25:08] Right. And as I said, we do brown before pressure cooking. Okay, listen. No further questions. Cooking issues challenge.
+
+[25:15] Someone take this up, someone take this up. Do it. Two identical pots, two identical recipes, one pre-brown, one don't, cook 12 hours, report back. Someone, someone out there has the energy to do this. Step up, chat room.
+
+[25:30] Someone step up and help us out. Call in, we'll give you, we'll give you like five, six minutes of reporting time on cooking issues to report your findings. You call in, you let us know whether or not there was a big difference. Now, if you're really a high quality individual, you will, or not as low quality as you might otherwise be, you'll do a triangle test with people so they can see if they can tell it apart. But okay, so if anyone wants to do it, like I'll give you even more time and more kudos if you do the triangle test.
+
+[25:56] Maybe we'll give you some sort of a prize. Like maybe we'll give you a heritage radio network food radio since 2009 t shirt. I don't know. I'm not saying we will because I don't have the power to do that. But maybe.
+
+[26:06] Anyway, so now what's your question? Oh, I just one final thing on the instant pod. This would be real quick. Um, I was actually really surprised looking at their little recipe book that came with it, how um friendly to quality they are. Um, so like in their beef stew recipe, it's uh brown brown everything off first, and then there's uh after you've cooked the meat, then you strain out the mirepoix and get the stock back to normal and add like vegetables and stages.
+
+[26:36] Um it's very built, very linear, very clean, and it's um you know, it follows best practices, which is kind of weird in this uh appliance, which is sort of sold as like a you know, it's an eight in one wonder thing, and all you have to do is press a button and walk away. But then you look at the recipes, and they're like, Well, if you were a decent human being and you gave a damn, this is how you would actually do it. Well, I like to hear stuff like that. Maybe the people who make it are cooks. I don't know who makes it.
+
+[27:03] You know? That sounds like good people, though. God bless them. You know, I anyone like first of all, like anyone that like advances quality in a non-uh judgmental way, unlike what I was doing today. Uh I like that.
+
+[27:16] So judgy, so judgy. Yeah, look, we're among friends. You can be judgy among friends, I think. Anyway, so your what was your question? Okay, so here's my question.
+
+[27:24] Uh I got a quarter boneless Suriano ham coming from West Wallace Edwards. Whoa! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Is he selling them again or is this old stock? They are back in stock.
+
+[27:34] The bone in just sold out. They've got some boneless quarters uh and fully boned out ones available, but they're going fast. Let me interrupt you for one second. S. Wallers Edwards, who is a longtime supporter of the radio uh network here.
+
+[27:48] I've known him for many, many, many years. Um, you know, since I don't know, like oh four or something like this. Uh was is one of the finest uh ham producers in the uh Surrey area of Virginia, Tidewater, Virginia. Uh you know, family's been doing it for eight, you know, eight bazillion years. His you know, grandfather wrote an article in the 60s about how hell was going to a ham was going to hell in a handbasket because they got rid of peanut feed.
+
+[28:15] Oh, the whole nine. The guy, real deal guy, as well as Edwards. Anyways, uh a couple of years ago, his uh his establishment burnt to the ground. There were wild dogs running on his property eating scorched hams, and we all cried bitter tears because uh his especially his high the his high-end ham, which he called Suriano. I dislike that name intensely, but it's uh it's a very good product, and I'm I'm happy to see that it's back.
+
+[28:45] All right, now go ahead. Uh yeah, and also just had to like go get it because it's gonna be gone if you want some to anybody listening. Really high quality ham. Really beautiful. Nothing brings the salt or the funk like Edwards.
+
+[28:58] Yeah, how uh how old are they right now? Are they are they what are they are they are they four? I think they're saying 400 days. 400 days? Nice.
+
+[29:05] All right, that's good. That's good cutting aid. Good cutting time. All right, so go ahead. Um, and so the only time I've ever had this ham was on my one visit to Booker and Dak.
+
+[29:16] Did you get the taste in or just the Edwards? Like a one kind of random night that I happened to be in New York City, like unexpectedly, my flight got canceled. And someone said, Is there anywhere you want to go? So I went there. Um, got the ham plate uh and the pork buns because we had dinner reservations afterwards.
+
+[29:34] So did you do it? Did you put a slice of ham? Did you tuck it into the pork bun? Because that that was always time that that was that's a turbo bun. Really?
+
+[29:46] In a new place. The new place, by the way, will not have buns. One thing it will not have is pork buns. Because to be honest with you, like there was a guy named Sinaido, who was the original pork bun maker at Booker Index and prior to Booker Index just at Sambar. And he would it this is how he operated.
+
+[30:05] He he always had the same pleasant look on his face 100% of the time. And it was air went in, buns came out. Air goes in, buns go out. I love that. Remarkable stuff.
+
+[30:18] Just a feat of endurance and strength. Every bun perfect. Every bun perfect. No, no like no dry edges. Oh no, just the perfect layer of hoisen.
+
+[30:29] Oh, it's beautiful. No misplaced placed cucumber slices. No, absolutely not. Every like when you looked at his station, people would order like uh uh eight billion buns, please, and like they would all look like perfect, like you would like decapitate or cut Kermit the Frog right through the mouth, open because that's how he would lay them out. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:46] And oh my god. And he maintained the steam level in his bun basket perfectly. They're always so pillowy soft. Yeah. Never soggy, never dry or cold.
+
+[30:55] Sanaido was a good, a good man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean he's not dead. He just went to go work somewhere else.
+
+[30:59] Yeah. For more money. Anyway, uh, I didn't say that, but I did. Okay, so you have this, you have a uh a quarter of a which quarter of the of the ham do you have? Uh I don't know yet.
+
+[31:12] It's uh coming in the mail uh later, but it's boned out. Um I guess my question is, you know, do you have any serving sugg I mean I would just put it on the plate and eat it. Uh correct like pairing suggestions, or I mean, I was thinking about doing the sort of espresso powder uh red eye gravy and air quotes that like the the Mamafufuku group guys didn't have to be. To me, that is the best thing they ever came up with. Delicious product.
+
+[31:41] Yeah, I love that product. And so like I'm gonna go ahead and say that you know, of all the things that that crew ever came up with, the that red eye gravy mayonnaise is maybe the best one. I love that stuff. I think it's somewhat polarizing. Some people don't like it, right?
+
+[31:55] Bad people. I've never met anyone that doesn't like it. Right. If you didn't know what was gonna happen beforehand, first of all, like red eye gravy. I mean, I grew up with it because my grandma used to make actual red eye gravy with coffee and you know, and the drippings and stuff, but uh, so I have a a particular soft spot for it in general.
+
+[32:13] That stuff is delicious, but I will tell you what you can do. You know, the old joke uh is uh, you know, a couple and a Virginia ham is the definition of forever because it lasts forever. Yeah, but don't cook it. Whatever you do, don't don't cook it, right? I mean, obviously, you know, yeah.
+
+[32:29] Uh I mean you can, but you you should you should not. So uh what I like to do is um when when God invented the American country ham, he really wanted you to eat it with eggs. You know what I'm saying? So, like uh like raw slice, like so, like let's say you're gonna make a pizza, uh, you fire up a pizza, and then you uh do like a fried egg on top, and then after it comes out of the oven, you put some thin slices of this over top of that. That is delicious, or even like you take scrambled eggs and you cut some up thin and put it over the scrambled eggs after it cooks, that stuff's delicious.
+
+[33:09] Uh I just eat it straight on sandwiches, it's good and cheese plates, it's good. I mean, anything that it would be good, uh anything that you would use a uh you know, a prosciutto style thing for, you could use it here. But I particularly love it with eggs, and so uh because I like eggs more than the average person, when I cook for myself, when I'm alone, which doesn't happen hardly ever anymore, when I'm alone, all I consume is eggs. And so, like, you know, poached eggs, fried eggs, scrambled eggs, on toast, and if I have country ham, there's country ham all all over up and down that. Um I think you'll find that if you're a person like myself and Dave, if you have a ham in your home, it's not gonna last that long.
+
+[33:50] No, you're just gonna be slicing, slice, slice, you know. You're bored, you slice some ham. You're hungry, you slice some ham. You're tired, a little bit of ham. A little bit of ham.
+
+[33:57] A little bit every situation. Now, here I'm gonna go a little bit against what I normally say, and I'm gonna tell you some of my own personal things that I don't like with that style of ham. Now, because uh American hams have that kind of uh funk and a little bit of that kind of I guess it's lipid oxide uh lipid oxidation style. I don't know what it is, but there's a little bit of thing I don't think it pairs well with uh carbonated beverages. I can agree with that.
+
+[34:19] Yeah, so like I wouldn't do like I'm not big on like uh a champagne and country ham tasting. Not. I mean, if it's like super oxidative champagne, like into the the nutty side of things, then it then it could be nice. But the bubble just drink sherry, get some sherry, get some really good sherry and eat a ton of ham. Yeah, but but be aware that you will have a horrible headache the next day.
+
+[34:44] You will have just a rotten now. There's been recent evidence that um that hangovers merely mimic the symptoms of dehydration. But let me tell you, you will have the actual symptoms of dehydration if what you're doing is pounding nuts, cheese, ham, and cherry. Even though that is delicious, yeah, you will have a severe headache. I'm gonna tell you this.
+
+[35:07] It is worth it. Absolutely. I would, I would, I would take that headache any day, but just remember, when you're pounding a lot of ham, hydrate in the in professionally, by the way, when you're tasting, should you ever become a uh country ham tasting professional, like Dr. Norman Marriott was, who used to be the food safety guy at Virginia Tech and who wrote some of the books on how to make country ham, uh once told me uh apple cider. So, like, not carbonated, not alcoholic, although I like them both carbonated and alcoholic, but uh apple cider is the palate cleanser of choice when uh doing country ham.
+
+[35:42] And so also any form of thing like that is a natural pairing with a country ham. So, like your apple butters, your apple sauces, uh your your that cooked that cooked uh apple note that you get out of a cider. You know what I mean? Yeah, uh that's great. Yeah, so I mean the situation that I have is I'm gonna basically be using it as like an appetizer sort of situation on Thanksgiving uh for my like family.
+
+[36:08] So uh I think apples would be kind of like a festival like seasonal accompaniment. Um you know what you might want to look into that's fun is uh I like to do uh if you can get any cooking pears or pears that don't get too uh messed up when you when you cook them, what used to be known as uh wardens, like I like I love like a mixed apple pear sauce. Like in if you look at the old medieval recipes, like chardwarden, it's like these uh old pear sauces back when people used to do cooking pears a lot. I mean, it's not it's kind of gone by the wayside, but I love an app I love a like a cooked down, like little bit sweet apple pear mix. And that kind of a compote would be delicious with uh with a ham.
+
+[36:56] But like honestly, like I would just sit there chewing on that, I would just be sitting there slicing a piece of ham for myself. Do you what form of slicing are you going to do? Um, so my plan right now is I have a uh uh Yanagiba, like 300 uh centimet uh millimeter sushi slicer. Right. Uh that's got the chisel grind only on one edge.
+
+[37:18] So I'm gonna try to use that. It's a little thick, so I don't know if that's gonna work, but I have other slicers to uh try out as well. But it'll be done by hand, and I don't, you know, just kind of slow I've so have you ever been to Zingerman's in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I have not. I've never been I've never been to Ann Arbor.
+
+[37:36] Killer Deli there, and they they have a bunch of hams behind the uh counter that you know they slice off the ham on the rack by hand. And so if you want like three ounces of ham, it'll take them 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah. They they were the first big chain. I know this because I spoke to someone there back in like 04 or 05 when I was doing a lot of my you know, right after I had done my initial country ham research, and they were the first uh big place to start serving uh American hams this way, and you know, and like literally I would go in whenever I went into a store, I would go into Dean and DeLuca's and I would say, Your ham selection is garbage.
+
+[38:15] Why is your ham selection so garbage? And they would they were like, Who are you get out of here? You know what I mean? And uh and to my knowledge, even though I never got to visit them, Zingerman's was the first and for a long time the only establishment that uh gave a uh a crap about it. So yeah, I'd love to go there.
+
+[38:33] Yeah, it's a beautiful place. Um anyway, well, uh, thanks for your recommendations. Yeah, but hold on a second. Before you go, listen. Uh here's the question I have, because when I say quarter ham, the the real question is which part of the ham are you gonna get?
+
+[38:45] The two like because I don't know whether I'm assuming he's not breaking the cushion off, and then I'm I'm assuming they're boning it out, and then they're gonna cross-cut it. So you're getting some section of a cross-cut of a ham. And the I think that's what it's I think that's what it's gonna be based on the picture. Right. And so American style ham serving is a cross-cut kind of a phenomenon.
+
+[39:05] But as you're I'm sure you're aware, the Spanish and as Cesare Casella will tell you, whose ham is delicious, by the way. I need to try Chesare's ham. Yeah, yeah, uh. Yeah, he you know, he uses the old style hand cutting. An old-style hand cutting is not a cross-cutting technology.
+
+[39:20] It's he they're cutting uh long ways, and they're doing that, you know, what you would think of as the hand cut that they would do in Spain. And so there it's just a jiggle, jiggle, jiggle, jiggle, jiggle, jiggle, jiggle with the slicer and making those like kind of long wave. I used to not like that. I have come around to liking them both for different things. So uh just be aware that the easiest way to get cross-cut style things with a Yanagi if you have an entire piece of ham, is to remove the harder, smaller part of the muscle that's underneath the bone.
+
+[39:52] You'll see it's very much darker, and then that is hard. You put that down, and you can I would not shave that one with a Yanagi. I would use something a little bit a little bit with a firmer of a back, and just shave that as you would something harder because it's usually harder. Then take the the cushion section that you have, lay that down flat on the board, and that you can get long, nice draw slices with your Nagi if you trim the you just trim only trim the skin back on the area that you're about to cut. That'll preserve the kind of the rest of it.
+
+[40:23] So trim back just the area on the and obviously not with your Yanagi, you something else, put that down, and then those you can get nice draw slices off but I would not attempt to slice the entire thing as a piece and if you have a quarter cut thing I would not attempt to do the long um uh Spanish style cuts because you just don't have that that the length of ham to do it on all right nice uh yeah thanks for the slicing suggestion I hadn't even uh thought about those issues yeah that's what we're here for cooking it should be cooking and cutting issues instant pot issues call in your question anyway all we gotta take a break well uh thanks for the uh thanks for the advice also thanks for the wonderful experience at Booker and Dax uh my drink order was the gin and tonic the wanger and the uh thunder nut uh that's okay so the what the wanger was that your spec Jack yeah so what was it for the record uh I'm struggling to recall exact measurements but it was uh a mango Houstino and uh Louis Royer cognac with sweet vermouth yellow chartreuse uh lemon lime and bitter so it was tiki style served tall named after the one and only Nick Wong who for some unknown reason was called Wang Wanger. Yeah and it was served with the dance oh yeah the dance oh we gotta have Nick Wong on get him in the booth have him fly back here just to do the dance at some point. Nice all right wanger yes strong secure thank you. All right and uh well gin and tonic specs we can get into later if we need it but thanks for calling in happy Thanksgiving we'll be right back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978.
+
+[42:11] One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. And we are back.
+
+[42:52] Dave, you say we got a caller on the air? That's right. Caller, you're on the air. Oh yeah, Dave. Dan, Seattle.
+
+[42:58] Hey, how you doing? So simple, straight up question. I I can't deal with garbage vacuum vacuum sealers anymore. I'm trying I'm planning to get a real one this Black Friday. Nice.
+
+[43:12] Um, so there's the Polyscience 300. Which uh last time I checked, I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked is a relabeled mini pack. Okay. There's a VACMaster. Um the one that's very price comparable to the Polyscience is the VP 210.
+
+[43:29] Wait, how much is the Polyscience one? Okay, so on Amazon at this moment, the Poly Science is 800 and the Vacmaster VP 210 is 760. Huh. How much is the comparable small mini pack? I I I uh mini pack does not come up on Amazon.
+
+[43:48] So that that was one of my questions. Is it is it is there a name brand I'm not seeing? Does the well, okay, so the the professional ones, like a lot of people have multi-vacs, they're really expensive, and I for years have used Mini Pack. Uh my question is, what kind of pump does the poly science have in it? Is it a is it a dry pump?
+
+[43:59] Dry pump. Dry pump. I haven't I I'm gonna I don't have any personal experience. No one has ever sent me to evaluate hint a uh a dry pump uh vacuum. I have always been a very like uh uh very pro oil pump fellow with my vacuum machines, and um but I have only really used professional level vacuum machines before, and my only experience with dry pump ones is of the kind of food saver variety, which are not good.
+
+[44:51] Uh yeah, but I I can certainly back up that part. Um, but then one more quick question here. Have you ever used any of the Western I mean they're they're truly industrial machines, but they're not chamber vaccines. Have you uh do you have any experience with those? I don't.
+
+[45:08] I I only uh you know i no I don't. Uh but back to the VAC Master, I I've not used the if if the poly science is a dry pump one, I haven't used uh I haven't used that one. Um I I have not used the Vacmaster, but I have spoken to people who like it. In other words, like chefs who've like they sent one to the French culinary after I'd stopped teaching their um low temperature sous vide class, and Erve Malavare, who's was, you know, teaching it with you know with with me uh, you know, before I left, uh says that he thinks it's fine, he thinks it's okay to work with. Um I have not used it, and I've never spoken to anyone in depth other than him, uh, you know, who has a lot of experience with real like oil pump based chamber vacuums uh and it, so it's hard for me to make a judgment.
+
+[46:05] Now, typically an oil pump machine is gonna clock in at $1,500 minimum. You know what I mean? And so, you know, it's twice as much money. So my you know, the question is is it twice as good? What are you gonna what are you trying to do with it?
+
+[46:19] You know what I'm saying? Like what it what is it that you want it to first of all, what is it that you want it to do, right? Well, I mean I feel a lot of different stuff, but the the thing that just makes me climb the walls is when I make sausage and I'm trying to seal it in four-ounce packages for like to put on things on like pizza and pasta. Right. So I want relatively small units, and I and I wind up with like 40 of them.
+
+[46:50] And the Cheapos, uh the Cheapo models, I get steel 15 quickly, and then they start overheating, and then it takes eons to get it finished, and you've got sausage sitting there getting warm. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Oil-based pumps, the more you run them, the better they are. Literally, the more you run an oil based pump, the better it gets at sucking a vacuum because the it the pump heats up, and as it heats up, it gets better and better because it gets better at rejecting moisture that's in it.
+
+[47:24] So it's just like uh, yeah. And I I I'm assuming what's happening in in in also with the overheating is that as liquids get sucked into a dry pump, the uh liqu like the liquids uh actually inside the diaphragm area don't get ejected well enough, and so you reduce your pumping uh action there and you have to run it, even one of those things, you have to run for a long time to redry out the inside of the pump to get like decent fast vacuum levels again. This is my experience with dry pumps and rotary evaporators, which I have a lot of experience with dry pumps and rotary evaporator situations. But those dry pumps also have such a lower CFM rating than the oil based pumps do. Those oil based pumps just rip and rip and rip.
+
+[48:08] And so, like if you're gonna spend $800, I mean, I'm not telling you to go buy, but here's the other thing, right? If you if you get a like a decent like mid level um chamber vac, and this is the one thing that I think people don't invest in. I've said it back when I used to advise professionals on this constantly. Get a get a machine with two seal bars. And everyone's like, oh, the second seal bar takes up so much space in my chamber vac.
+
+[48:33] And I'm like, you can take the seal bar out when you're not using it so that it's not taking up room in your machine. But especially if you're doing portion packs, imagine if you could seal two packages every time you close the lid. How much better would your life be if you could seal things twice as quickly? Oh, I see I see what you're saying. So you some of them you can literally seal like two relatively small bags at once.
+
+[49:02] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. So you have like you get a machine. Yeah, right. You get a machine that has a seal bar on the front, a seal bar in the back.
+
+[49:09] It's a it's uh an add on, usually, it doesn't usually cost that much extra. And then when you need the extra space in your machine, you just pull the bar out of the back and you're fine. You know, it doesn't stop you from bagging soups if you want. You know, some of the machines, like the mini pack, the one that I use, you can also uh you can reverse it so you can have a super long bag outside of the chamber. If you were bagging, let's say a giant striper that you were gonna cook or something like that, or you know, if you're out in Seattle, whatever in the hell, salmon, whatever they have out there.
+
+[49:38] Dave, we gotta wrap up. Final thoughts. Oh, oh man. All right. Uh anyway, uh let us know what you choose.
+
+[49:44] Next week we're gonna have a long cooking issues, uh, right, Dave or not, for Thanksgiving. That's what I hear. Yeah. Thanksgiving gift to you. Okay, uh Nick wrote in and wants to know when uh the uh spinzalls are gonna be available on Amazon.
+
+[49:59] Hopefully by Black Friday, spinzalls will be on Amazon. We're working on it. They're flying into the country now, but you never uh you never know. Um we have a bartender question, uh, Dan from Chicago, uh, about uh Christmas cocktails. Since it's for Christmas, we'll do it next time.
+
+[50:16] Um, I'll tell you what I did on the way out, Jack, see what you think. By the way, do you have the spec for the Wanger? Do you want to give it to him? Uh yeah, I do have that spec. It's well, if you have a spinzall, you're gonna need to get a bottle of Louis Roy cognac and do 150 grams of dried mangoes blended into the cognac, spun out to make the uh the mango Houstino that we used.
+
+[50:39] And then it's uh a half ounce of yellow chartreuse, a half ounce of pineapple syrup, which is just one to one-to-one uh pineapple juice and sugar, uh, quarter ounce of uh Carpano Antica and three-eighths of an ounce of lime juice. And give that a whip and put it on crushed ice and a high ball, top it with angle. All right. Yeah. Uh, and so uh, but if you guys want more specs, we're gonna do our Booker In Dax reunion episode.
+
+[51:06] Or if you want Jack to come back on, let us know. Do a request, maybe he'll uh out of the goodness of his heart come back in. Here's what I did on the way out. I was using a pressure washer. So, like, you know how like you have things that don't fit in your sink, like sheet pans and stuff like this.
+
+[51:19] I was using, I said, what if I use a pressure washer outside, because I had access to one to clean all my stuff. So here's the thing. Oh, geez. On sheet on sheet pans, great. I didn't have access to warm water.
+
+[51:31] I'm gonna do a warm water pressure washer outside with a hose in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, I'll see how that is. But fantastic on the sheet trays. Do not attempt on your Vitape, uh, on your Vitapep container. I was like, uh Vitapep container, it's kind of a pain.
+
+[51:46] The sink's full of stuff, so do not attempt. And on big stainless steel bowls, like big salad bowls, like that don't fit in your sink. Do not attempt, do not attempt. But anyway, I'm gonna work on pressure, pressure washing as a as a uh a wear washing technique, and I'll get back to you with more information on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[52:17] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[52:49] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com slash podcast. My name is Hannah Fordan. I'm the membership coordinator at Heritage Radio Network, but even before I joined the team, I loved listening to HRN during my subway commute. It made the time go quickly and left me feeling inspired for the day ahead.
+
+[0:26] HRN listeners tune in from all over the world. But there are a few traits that we all have in common, no matter where we listen from. A curious palate, the fierceness to make a difference, and a hunger for lifelong learning about the culinary world. As you know, Heritage Radio Network is a listener-supported nonprofit. To deliver the most ambitious, entertaining, and of the moment stories in 2018, we need your help.
+
+[0:54] We need to raise 150,000 by December 31st to accomplish these goals and to keep your favorite shows on the air. Together, we can make this HRN's most exciting, impactful, and delicious year yet. Become a member by donating today. Join us at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate, and you'll immediately start enjoying benefits such as VIP invitations to HRN events, where you will mix and mingle with your favorite hosts. Memberships also make a perfect holiday gift for all the foodies in your life.
+
+[1:30] This year, why not give the gift of food radio? You'll hear your generosity and action for the year to come. Help keep our lights on and our mics hot by pledging your support today at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to Cooking Asians.
+
+[1:57] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Alberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined again this week as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Good. We got uh Dave in the booth. Good.
+
+[2:14] We got Matthew sitting. Not our Matthew, though, right? No. Different Matthew. Different Matt.
+
+[2:19] Matt. Matt, what do you do for what do you do for a living in the booth over there? I just watched Dave move knobs. Yeah? Is this like in it like so that someday you can like have someone watching you move knobs?
+
+[2:31] Is that the goal here? No, my goal is to professionally watch him. Wow. That's a sweet job. Mm-hmm.
+
+[2:36] Yeah. Yeah. By the way, this is the last show before Thanksgiving, so call in your last minute. Although odds are, look, it's Tuesday. If you haven't planned your Thanksgiving, I'm not gonna say that you're host, but pretty much.
+
+[2:47] Your host. Your host. Uh call in your uh Thanksgiving or other related questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:59] But since this week is Thanksgiving, what does that mean for next week, Nastasi? Do you know? It means we will be knee deep in Christmas music. Nastasi and I go we go ape. We oh god, come on.
+
+[3:11] Come on. Really? Nastasia? I'm surprised. First of all, Nastasia gets to bring on her Christmas hat, which is one of the great hats of all times.
+
+[3:19] Have you s Dave? Have you seen? Of course you've seen Nastasia's Christmas tree. What is it, like a Santa hat? No!
+
+[3:24] It's a tree. It turns her head into a Christmas tree, and I await it every year with the same sort of expectation that other people wait for the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree. Wow. Every every year she threatens, she's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna light it up this year. I'm gonna guess some lights and like a battery.
+
+[3:42] But she never does. Yeah, that'd be good. She spends too much time on the wine Santa's. By the way, describe the head. Describe the hat.
+
+[3:48] You've seen it. It's just a tr a Christmas tree. It's that's lit that has lights, but they're not little balls. Yeah. It's got little things coming off of it and it's like pointed and tall.
+
+[3:58] And it and year after year it manages to never look to crestfallen like uh like you know, hemlock trees, not the stuff that, you know, uh what's his name? Uh Socrates, that's a small plant that he poisoned himself on, uh, or when you allowed himself to be poisoned with hemlock trees, they they the tip of them goes over to one side. That's one of the ways you know, A, that it's a hemlock tree and not like uh some sort of regular pine tree. And B, that's how you can tell the direction of prevailing wind usually because that's how they uh that's how they go over. But yeah, but Nastasia's tree, clearly always erect some sort of spruce or fir, or you know, like you know, sticking straight up in the air, you know what I mean?
+
+[4:36] Uh wow. You know, so anyway, so I'm looking forward, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to obviously Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer, our favorite. Our favorite. Yeah.
+
+[4:46] Although I played the uh, you know, uh I think his name is Arlie Ermy, you know, the guy from Full Metal Jacket, the drill sergeant. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I played the version of his voice over top of the lead elf screaming at Hermie and and to and you know what? My Jen was not amused.
+
+[5:03] Really? Maybe it's because she thought it was inappropriate language for a 12-year-old to hear. But I mean, exactly. Of course he liked it. It's got all sorts of like horrible, like you know.
+
+[5:14] Do you know that they have this is totally not cooking related, but do you know that they have a difficult time now? Now, it used to be that like it was super easy for them to find drill instructors. A lot of people wanted to be depends on which branch of the service you're in, whether it's a drill instructor, drill sergeant, drill, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Uh, but uh, yeah, apparently, like the rules now, because you're not allowed to personally insult people to the extent that you used to, it's harder and harder to find people because everyone wants to basically you know scream maggot at people all the time.
+
+[5:46] You know what I mean? Anyway, a little aside. I have no anyone who anyone who's currently in the service and is on the chat or you know, recently, you know, weigh in on uh way in on new school versus old school drill instructing, because you know what, it's kind of like it it goes back a little bit to what we've been saying about the kitchen, the way a lot of kitchens kind of run this way. Uh I think unnecessarily, because it's not the military, and you know, if you don't snap aren't at stake, yeah, lives aren't in stake. It's not like you have to, you it's not like you have to like you know blindly count on the person next to you, whether you loathe them as a human being, right, in the military, you have to count on them with your life like all the time.
+
+[6:22] You know what I mean? And kitchens, it's more like it's important that you not mess up the food. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I'm not saying it's not important, obviously. I you know, I base I base my professional life on not trying to not mess up the food, on trying to be a person of quality, but it's not the same.
+
+[6:35] I mean, let's be a little bit let's get a little bit of a low-quality individuals at the end of the day, right? That's true. But I mean, what I'm saying is let's get a little bit of perspective on on it. You know what I mean? Um can we talk about that the spinzalls are gonna be in Amazon soon?
+
+[6:49] Uh well, they're supposed to be there already. Nastasi and I'm not gonna hoard them. Some are gonna be there by Black Friday. That's a lie. I am hoping.
+
+[6:58] It's a lie, it's not gonna happen. People, I'm telling you, we're hoping for Cyber Monday, which is what a load of horse crap that is, right? Cyber Monday. Mm-hmm. And what do they get if they order it?
+
+[7:09] A spinzall. Is there anything special? Listen, listen, people, listen. I have to, those of you that already have it. First of all, we have one, well, we have a listener who said, I bought one, but I didn't tell my significant other.
+
+[7:25] And she already is like, why do you have this Sears all thing? And now, and it yes, it is a man, yes, has a uh a spinzall, wants to know what he can make in it to please the significant other, such that they will not think that it is that it is a ridiculous purchase. I was like, I don't know. What do they like? You know what I mean?
+
+[7:46] And and the thing is like, unless you really like clarify juices, I was like, make a lot of butter for them, because that's cool. Make Lodmate. Uh well, you uh guess your favorite. I think it's it's one of our one of our Canadian, one of our Canadian listeners. We'll talk about it later.
+
+[8:01] But if any of you guys have uh recipes out there to convince the significant other. I'm gonna send out a blast to everyone that has a spinzall, and I want to know how they're using it and if they're using it for Thanksgiving purposes. I need to make some stuff with Thanksgiving because we want what we're we're hoping to get like stuff. In fact, Nastasia wants to have a contest. We gotta see what we're gonna give people, but a contest for you know cool uses of the spinzall other than the stuff that we've already uh done.
+
+[8:27] So look for an email today. So what am I gonna do? Like uh t shirts, cocktail cubes, what I don't know. What? I don't know.
+
+[8:35] Why not the cocktail cube? I don't know. We could give a cocktail. You don't like the t-shirts? Well, if anyone has any opinions over what we should give as a prize uh that doesn't involve uh traveling across the nation.
+
+[8:48] Um you could give Dave a personal phone call. We no one wants a personal phone call with me. What do you think? No one wants a personal phone call. What are they gonna get?
+
+[8:56] Yeah. What are they gonna get? I'm uh look, I'm much worse. People, anyone that's ever had a personal phone call with me knows how they go. I'm either like I'm either just trying to get off the phone or I'm uh, you know, I don't know.
+
+[9:10] Like I'm like you and Nastasia scream at each other on the phone every day? No, not every day. Not on Tuesdays, because we know we're gonna see each other and then we wait until afterwards, but like pretty much every other day, one of us is had has had a bad time. And so, like, we will we we can't allow the other person to just go along with it. We have to speak of phones, uh, and like and by the way, Dak said, hey dad, uh, you gonna get to any food things this week?
+
+[9:35] Really? Yeah, he's like, he's already sticking it to me, a 12-year-old. Maybe I shouldn't show him that uh the drill drill sergeant stuff. Anyway, drill instructor stuff. So uh I was thinking about this.
+
+[9:45] I was in the in the grocery store, right? And I was watching this kind of you know, 20-something millennial person, like her face like connected to her phone as she was checking out at the grocery store such that the cashier, who also is usually face deep in a phone while she's doing her job, is like shoving the receipt like into this lady's eye. And I was like, I was like, you know, if I lived in if it if I pulled this kind of garbage of not knowing what was going on around me in New York City in the 80s, like I would have been naked. I would have I would have looked down and been like, where's my pants? They've been stolen, along with my, you know, oh my god.
+
+[10:25] Like if if I owned a car, I'd look over and like all the wheels would be gone. And if the thief was nice, it would be on cinder blocks, usually not. You know what I mean? Like, unless it helps them get the rims off, they're not gonna bother with the blocks. And I was like, what?
+
+[10:37] Like, like you would have been like, that's it. You would have been toast. Like I guess it's a like this whole New York City millennial phone self-absorbed thing would not have been possible back in the days before it was ridiculously safe here in the city. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[10:55] People walk around like they're in their own wombs. You're also presuming that only millennials get lost in their phones, which is definitely not true. Well, no, that's true. But I mean, like I do it time to time. I have to admit, everyone does it time to time.
+
+[11:06] But as someone who used to walk around the streets having to like all you always had to look over your shoulder, you had your bag in a certain way on guard. I see people now with crap hanging out of their pockets, like dollar bills, and it's like in one way, like thank goodness the city is safe like that. But on the other hand, I mean, gracious, like what like when people travel, do we just get do we just get like obliterated in other countries that aren't safe because we just don't pay attention to the world around us, or do we suddenly get our kind of animal instinct back on and like learn how to not animal instinct Monday nights on Heritage Radio Network? Really? Yeah, it's a show.
+
+[11:41] What is it? What's it about? Animals. What about them? How they taste?
+
+[11:44] Instincts. No, no, no, no. It's it's how to hunt them? No. No, it's like loving and caring for animals.
+
+[11:50] Really? Yes. Like pets? Well, not necessarily. Like there was one about whales.
+
+[11:55] Um, you know. I have a uh I told you, like, I would never eat, I would never eat a uh a whale, right? But I have several old recipes for whale. And apparently, like in Norwegian whales, the big marker is like I I forget whether it's one ton or two ton. But it's so weird like to read old recipes for things that are horrific that you would never eat nowadays, but used to be out, and then you know, you ask yourself, what's it gonna be like in a hundred years?
+
+[12:22] Are people gonna look back and be like, ooh, hamburger? What you you know what I mean? If you had a beach house and a whale washed up on shore, would you eat it? Okay. Uh that's illegal.
+
+[12:29] Would you eat it? Uh and for those of you out there, uh, everybody should know that it's a long-standing proposition of mine that if my arm was severed and there was no possibility of reattachment, that I would of course cook it and eat it, because why would you not? Like, I wouldn't do it to somebody else's arm because that's gross and I think invasive, you know, to them. Wait, if it was already off and you were starving, you wouldn't do that? No, you know, he doesn't need to be starving.
+
+[12:57] Sorry. It's off. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? It's off.
+
+[13:00] Just don't want to waste the arm. Yeah. I mean, like, am I wrong on this? But what if there's plenty of food available? No, no, that's uh, I mean, like, why wouldn't you why would you throw it away?
+
+[13:14] How would you cook it? Oh my god. Well, for okay. So this is this is a well-known, uh, a well-known way to operate. So, in the same way that when you're testing whether something is poisonous or not, when you're testing something that you have a very finite quantity of it and you want to cook it, first thing to do is to research his and this is how this came up, because you're talking about whales, research historical antecedents.
+
+[13:35] This is something that people used to do, right? Uh, notwithstanding uh some scholarship from the early 90s uh saying that almost all cannibalism stories are overwrought and not true. I think that person was wrong. But you know, so uh this is a known thing. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:51] So uh look it up, first of all, and then small sm to small, small pieces to do some tests. You know what I'm saying? Fingers. No, like in terms of not in terms of like cooking ability. No, I know, I know, but you'd have to cook it.
+
+[14:05] I mean, obviously, I'd probably do immersion circulation. Now the problem is is that being a 40 uh being a 47 year old person, you know, my collagen is in such a state that the issue is connective tissue on older animals. If you've cooked older animals like uh like very old animals, like they it's hard uh it you to do the long uh low temperature stuff is somewhat difficult because um the muscle structure doesn't break down in the same way. Uh so it tends to be tougher overall, even throughout the kind of cooking process, but I haven't done enough tests on super old animals for super long. You're not a super old animal.
+
+[14:43] Well, compared to my life, I mean I'm like relative to the rest of humanity. Yeah. I mean, look, relative to back in the day, like I'm ancient. You know what I mean? Like, you know, when our average you know mortality age was in the 20s, like, you know, I've double that.
+
+[14:56] Yeah, this meat is spoiling. Yeah. So anyway, point being uh that uh my feeling is that a lot of older animals are pretty fussy in the cooking, and that the low temperature stuff that you would do with a normal uh younger food animal would not necessarily work exactly the same way on an older animal that you might go from a situation where it goes from tough to being mushy with not a lot in between. So you might have to go through some, as we in the trade call it, mechanical tenderization, some sort of jackarding of the situation first, and then with your one remaining hand. You know.
+
+[15:28] Happy Thanksgiving, people. Happy Thanksgiving. You wouldn't try to put it back on your body. What? You wouldn't try to put it on the body.
+
+[15:34] No, no, no. The the conceit of the argument, Nastasia, is that it is gone. There is no chance. Yeah, no chance of reattachment. No chance of reattachment.
+
+[15:43] Just jacquarding your own arm. With the remaining hand. I mean, the thing is, I mean, what would you do? You wouldn't? Dave, you're saying you wouldn't?
+
+[15:51] If I was starving to death, yes, I wouldn't do it just because it was laying around. What would you throw it away? You would just throw it in a dump? Well, so wait, if if I again have no option to reattach. You would just waste it?
+
+[16:05] You would throw it away? Yeah, I mean my first inclination wouldn't be to eat my own arm unless I was starving. You would just throw it away. I I guess so. Yeah.
+
+[16:17] Is that what you want me to say? I don't know. I'm I'm curious. I think everyone who says that I'm terrible and disgusting or whatever, you know, I've been I've been likened to many like when I when I when I push what I believe is logical to the farest extent of what can be pushed, I am often referred to uh you know i with very unkind comparisons, let's put it this way. I was uh but I mean that the you know the thing is is that's why you gotta you gotta push push your belief all the way to the edge to see when we you know I hope that will never happen.
+
+[16:46] I'm not looking to lose I like having my arms that's not the issue. It's just that if I didn't need to eat my arm to survive, why would I? Because you want to know what it tastes like. But I no Nastasia's a little bit with me here. I'm a little bit I see that I would be horrified to lose my arm.
+
+[17:04] Of course you'd be horrified to lose your arm. So I guess I could put it on ice I'd put it on ice like a wedding cake. Yes one year later and then just like what happened to me what if your cousin goes into your fridge and eats it yeah terrible happy Thanksgiving um so anyway so back to Thanksgiving. Uh as I said this year I'm doing the two turkeys the two turkeys phenomenon and uh I'll report back but um I don't anticipate it being a problem. One thing, if you're going to do a two turkey situation and you break up the one turkey to cut into individual uh to to cook individually in individual pieces, I'm doing it, uh, my second turkey, I'm doing um, I'm doing chicken fried, chicken fried turkey.
+
+[17:44] So I'm cutting the, I'm cutting the pieces into manageable size pieces that people would want to eat as singular singular pieces. I'm going to do a milk, salt, sugar, um, I'm gonna cook them milk, salt, sugar, low, pull them out when they're still hot, let the skin flash off, then I'm gonna do flour, uh, then I do a mixture of uh buttermilk, eggs. So typically one uh egg, uh one large egg per cup of buttermilk with uh, you know, two eye, unfortunately I don't measure any of this stuff, baking baking um soda to counteract the um acidity and baking, because if you don't counteract the acidity in buttermilk battery people, this is a nice technical point for you. If you don't counteract the acidity in in a buttermilk um uh recipe, your crust will not get uh very brown. It'll stay blonde because the myard and the browning reactions that happen in the crust are accelerated by basic and but they're also inhibited by uh acidic conditions.
+
+[18:46] So if you've ever made pancakes, a lot of times what will happen when you're making a pancake with buttermilk, let's say, is you'll add a combination of both baking soda and baking powder. Uh right, the baking powder is the stuff that you know rises usually typically when it's heated, although double acting rises twice. And the soda makes bubbles right away, but the soda also um counteracts the or or neutralizes the acid that's in the buttermilk. And if you don't add the soda and you just do baking powder into your um buttermilk, you'll notice that all of your pancakes come out blonder than uh they would otherwise. And uh most people don't like their pancakes to have kind of a sallow tone.
+
+[19:27] So it can be it can be somewhat problematic. So, I mean i I don't think it'll affect the f flavor necessarily that much but a lot of people judge uh fried good based on its color when it comes out of the fryer and it is also a note that uh you know like unless you're doing tempura which is supposed to be like horribly undercooked and blonde people like a nice golden color anyway so the other program that we like is gonna be on soon too which one it's a wonderful life uh you watched that we never talked about that uh angel gets every time really yeah are you like ding ding ding really yeah it's so sweet what for real yeah yeah was a cannibal related question all right caller on the air well I had a real question but I wanted to throw a cannibal cannibal angle all right what do you got for me if you don't have the answer is that when cooked are and it's Thanksgiving related too or when cooked are humans white or dark meat or a blend of both or are they just red meat and all one color. But I'll throw that out there for thought. I don't know if that has an answer. But the real question I had um relates to um potentially a cranberry esque thought uh that I don't want to kill people with I have some raspberries that uh foraged in Maine in August that I forgot about at the back of the fridge that seem to have been living in the swarter free f mo colder zone not exactly freezer zone at the rear of the bridge.
+
+[20:59] They seem to have started fermenting, but they don't really taste on like alcoholic at this point. But they're not moldy either. And I'm just wondering if one, if they're just partially frozen, is that what's going on? Two, is there any good way to use these? And is some sort of cranberry sauce with some sort of funky flavor appropriate, or should I just toss them?
+
+[21:25] All right. So the the you've said some key things here, right? There's no mold on them. So that's good news. Uh if they were moldy, I'd say get rid of them, especially in a semi-liquid environment like um the uh any sort of toxins, mycotoxins produced by the mold can penetrate uh deeper than you can see, and especially in something where it's liquid like that, I you know, liquidy, I would definitely not um I would definitely not chance it.
+
+[21:51] I will now I regularly when I and this is by the way a tip for you if you know any spinzall people out there, when I clarify juices for an event and I have stuff left over, I keep it in the fridge and let it ferment. And so typically uh there's enough kind of wild uh stuff floating around, and typically the acid level of most of these juices is high enough uh and you're not sealing away um oxygen, so you're not gonna get in a situation where you have something unsafe. Uh you get some really nice kind of fermentations, and they happen over a very long period of time, almost like um lagering. And in fact, you'll get like a bottom uh often you'll get like a bottom sediment of yeast at the bottom of it, and they'll keep going. And what I typically do, it so if it was sealed in a jar, you should notice some gas puffing.
+
+[22:44] You open it, it puffs out. Um that they taste pretty good. Yeah, it's in in plastic, so it seems to have puffed up, but there's enough, you know, popping the popping the lid off that some seems to escape too. But it seems to be have you know, having exercise some pressure. How's it taste?
+
+[22:58] How's it taste? It tastes funky. I I haven't delved deep into it because I wasn't quite sure exactly whether it was it was safe or not, though. I was presuming it was safe. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm not a I mean, you know, fair warning here, I'm not a microbiologist, but uh I do this on a constant basis.
+
+[23:20] And that's how I figured out that I really liked fermenting clarified orange juice until it's dry. So now I pitch I actually pitch yeast into clarified orange juice to turn it full dry because I love it. You know what I mean? As kind of like a you know, like a it's I don't know what you would call it, because it's not a cider, it's not a beer. I don't know what the hell.
+
+[23:38] We call I call it like orange beer because it gets its bitterness back when you ferment out all the sugar, it gets its bitterness back, which is nice. In fact, I dope it with a little bit of extra sugar. Um so if if if I did a cooked preparation, like a cranberry sauce kind of thing with this, am I gonna lose the interesting stuff by bringing it, you know, by heating it, or is it still gonna retain whatever funk it has? Uh well, it'll lose m uh some of the alcohol and the chase uh flavor will change as it heats, but it'll retain in the same way that when you cook with uh well, beer is a bad example because it's got the hops in it as well, which interact strangely, but like when you cook with like uh white wines or um ciders or things like that, it'll I think it'll it'll maintain its flavor in the way that those will. They'll add something to it.
+
+[24:24] Um, but obviously it'll also change. So you're gonna use this in lieu of uh are you fan, by the way, of um are you a fan in your cranberry of adding orange because this could be in in you know instead of like orange? Do you like orange in your cranberry? Yeah, just acid? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:39] Standard, some people hate it. They're a purists, they only use water. I also, you know what I add in my cranberry that is not standard? Some people like, some people don't? I add vanilla.
+
+[24:48] I had a little bit of vanilla to it. It's good. I think it's good. I'm a no nut in my cranberry. I don't want any I don't want any nuts in my cranberry.
+
+[24:56] I'm also I'm also a leave the skins in person. You? What about you, Carl? Are you skins or no skins? I like the skins.
+
+[25:04] Yeah. Oh, but I mean, I I I'm thinking that parenthetically, no one has done a has anyone done a hipster version of just the jellied, the jellied cranberry where it comes out of the can with all the canned dryations. You mean like buy a can, make your own cranberry and do it? Uh wait, but you said what I'm hearing you advocate is to make it strain it through a jelly bag and then and then set it in a can you have purchased for this purpose. I I don't think I will actually do that.
+
+[25:38] I'm just that that that that has not uh I've I have not seen that come back to the forefront since that was my primary cranberry experience for about the first 15 years of my life. Yeah, well, do you uh do you watch The Simpsons? Yeah. Do you remember the episode when uh Bart was uh trying to help with Thanksgiving and he's like, I want to help, I want to help, I want to help, and then like you know, pestering his mom to help, and then she finally, and then she's like, uh do the cranberry sauce, and he's like, Where's the can, where's the can, where's the can? Where's the can opener?
+
+[26:04] Where's canoper and where's the can offer? And but here's where they get it wrong. When he goes, when he finally goes onto the plate, it collapses. But my memory of Yeah, it stands. My memory of yeah, canned cranberry sauce is the sucker stands up.
+
+[26:17] Yeah. You know what I mean? It's basically a solid. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a place for that.
+
+[26:23] Uh, do you like uh salad cranberry sauce in disc format, Nastasi? No. No? But could it be done nicely? Do you what do you like European pectin fruit candies, which are like that squared?
+
+[26:33] Yeah, they do. Like you like uh pâte fouilles and all that crap. I love that stuff. I think someone could do like almost like, yeah. Yeah, you could totally do it.
+
+[26:44] I mean, I think it's a lot of extra work to go through, seeing as how uh Yeah, I I I think I think I th I think I'll keep it simple. And then one last thing on this, you think something frozen, just like a sorbet would wor also work, or you're gonna is that gonna you know, again, are you gonna is it just gonna taste like regular fruit if you if you go down that? No, it's like wine sor like wine sorbets or like uh cider or beer sorbet, they retain uh some of the characteristics that they had. I mean, uh I've never done it with f with whole fruit before, right? But um, I mean I just serve the stuff.
+
+[27:16] Like I uh like a couple of weeks ago I served uh like a five month old uh fermented strawberry juice that was just really good. You know what I mean? Like when I was originally maybe even more than five months old, really good. People really like it. Um it depends on how dry it is.
+
+[27:31] Remember if you're making it's not that's so that's but it's when you're fermenting, you're short of making making it to the strength of wine. You you drink it before when it's in between. Yeah. You can drink it whenever you want. I mean, like the real question is is is um how much residual sugar is left, right?
+
+[27:48] So s so certain fruits as they ferment out their residual sugar, they uh are uh way too acidic, right? And so those typically need to be augmented or you need to do something with them. But other you know, other fruits um kind of almost get better as a drink as their sugars ferment out. And this is one of my classic gripes with people when they start first making apple cider, is is they taste their um they taste their uh apples and they're like oh this apple is balanced and then you know when they ferment it out it loses its balance because obviously the acid pops way the hell up. Is that an elephant?
+
+[28:25] What was that? Uh that was uh our fearless leader Patrick Martins calling me in the middle of our radio show even though he apparently should know that we're I mean like we've only regard for decorum when it comes to the radio we've only had this time slot for what five years, six years, something like that. So it's like anyway. So anyway so those are my those are my suggestions. The other thing you could do you could make a juice out of it and then I mean it's a little late to make it you could mash it and then and then clarify it later it'll eventually settle out if you mash it.
+
+[28:53] I don't know how much of it you have um but I would I would test a little bit just cook a little bit just do like a uh like a microwave test on a couple of them to heat them up uh so that you can do it uh you know in a finite amount cover it with um you know almost like steam it right so like you know cover it so it doesn't get desiccated microwave some of it and then uh taste and see whether you like the flavor. I think you'll probably like it. I mean I've never had one that I didn't think was at least uh had some merit. Okay. I'll I'll I'll let you know how it goes.
+
+[29:23] That's that's helpful. Alright cool thanks. All right happy Thanksgiving. You too. Oh and back to uh the uh original question thrown in about cannibalism well known well known fact that uh human beings are referred to as a long pig so my guess is is that we're closest to pork and if you're a fan of Patrick Martin's heritage pigs you know that the heritage pigs uh are not necessarily uh white meat.
+
+[29:47] You know what I mean? Anyway. Um, but I don't know if all you know, obviously we have different different muscle groups that do different things, so I I would bet that there is a difference in uh I mean it's we should stop talking about it. Stop talking. Stop talking about it.
+
+[30:00] Uh take another call. Uh sure, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh I was wondering your thoughts on Thanksgiving turkey. I'm gonna be doing low temp bird this year. Um, so I'm not gonna have traditional pan drippings, but I do have, of course, the carcass I can make stock, I can roast it, I could uh, you know, use some modern stuff like lessiston or xanthen gum.
+
+[30:23] I've got one dra. What is what do you do at your house and what are your thoughts on Thanksgiving turkey dinner? Okay, so what I do to uh typically is uh when you have the carcass, I'll rip out the carcass. I'll sometimes supplement it with some parts for gravy to get kind of uh more meat on it. Yeah, I roast it and then I make uh a stock.
+
+[30:43] Uh and so if you have a pressure cooker, uh I'll typically I'll make um sometimes a double stock. Sometimes I'll start with a chicken, like a light chicken base and then turkey it just to make it um even more so. But I I don't always, it depends on kind of kind of what mood I'm in. Uh then once you have that that base stock, you could you could really get like a uh a nice uh nice gravy, even in the because remember, when you're roasting off the carcass, if you roast off the giblets and all the other stuff, you can get a lot of the same stuff that you would get uh if you had your normal uh pan drippings, right? So you can get like a lot of that same effect as long as you don't lose the liquids that are in the bottom of your roasting pan, as long as you deglaze the bottom of your roasting pan and dump that in when you get the stock, and then when you pressure cook it, that those flavors get even browner.
+
+[31:32] So I think that uh, you know, a lot of people's love of pan drippings is that obviously, you know, there's not there's nothing that tastes kind of like you know, that little piece of skin that goes down and then glues itself to that freaking carrot in the pan and gets all brown and crusty and coated with turkey fat and you pick it up and you eat it, I mean that's delicious as long as you salt it, as long as you salt it. But the um you know I think you get a lot of that same effect just by using the carcass. And in fact, like uh the the peace of mind I get by making my uh stock well in advance and having it basically gravy ready and not having to worry about it when you're pulling your bird out is a huge benefit to me. Huge, huge benefit to me. But now going back to the thickening I never use uh Xanthan uh in it except so Xanthan you should only ever think of Xanthan in these kind of situations as like um the the fine focus knob on a camera right you want to get your you want to get your coarse focus with uh kind of standard uh thickener so whether you're a you know whether you're a wonder person you know I'm I I've like re what I typically do that and you know is I tend to use regular flour I tend to use regular flour uh and you know sometimes I'll do a uh a roux if I'm you know and then if I if I'm too late to do a roux or I really messed up I'll just take a couple of cups this you shouldn't do this is a very bad idea but I'll do it I'll do a couple of cups and then I'll just vita prep the hell out of it it'll knock all of the the uh uh lumps back out and then I'll dump the vita prep stuff back into the into the pot and then you know you never get any lumps that way.
+
+[33:17] But that's really cheating. Like, obviously, I'm supposed to tell you the science behind it, whereby you're like, well, uh, starch will tend to clump if you put it into uh hot liquid. So you would make a slurry of it in cold liquid and then stir quickly the cold liquid slurry into your hot uh liquid so that it uh you know disperses before it hydrates. That's what I'm supposed to tell you. But in the real life, you're like, oh God, I don't have it, and then you just like throw some into the vita prep and boom and then dump it back in and everything's cop aesthetic.
+
+[33:46] Uh at the now, uh some people believe, uh, and I don't really know where I am on this, the old Escalfier thing whereby uh flour uh you know in a in a base to thicken should either be cooked almost not at all, just to the boil, or for like 20 or 30 minutes, and then anything in between gives a kind of a flowery taste. I don't really know if that's the case. Um, but there's there at the end, you know. Some people, if you need to thicken up at the end, that's when people usually get like their Burmani, right? So they'll they'll mash some.
+
+[34:17] I don't the thing is I don't know anyone that uses Burmani that doesn't just have it in the fridge, and I don't know anyone that doesn't that has it in the fridge unless they're professional, right? But Burmani is a really good way to thicken stuff up at the end. But remember, it also adds fat and sometimes can leave a like a sheen on the top uh top of what you're doing. Now, uh on whether you're gonna use uh at the end, the fine focus, right? If if you have the flavor of your stuff correct and you're worried that adding a little more uh like uh starch in the form of flour or whatever, if you're afraid that that is going to kill the taste or mute the flavor too much, right?
+
+[34:53] That's when you can add a little bit of xanthan, but you never want to add more than about you know a gram per liter uh of or two grams per liter. So that's like you know, less than a quarter, well under a quarter of a percent. And you only want it to kind of move, because you don't want your gravy as it cools off, gets kind of jiggly enough. So you don't want it to kind of look all like uh jiggly and and jelly. That's kind of unpleasant.
+
+[35:20] Although my gravies actually, when they cool, will set hard like a gel because I use very thick stocks. Like the stocks that I use as my gravy base gel pretty freaking hard. So my typically, like I have very, very strong stocks for my gravy, so they'll get almost like they'll get real hard when they get when they get um super cold. But uh Xanthan, you know, it can be problematic that way. So just don't use too much of it.
+
+[35:44] But to use it, like I say, as a fine focus. Another thing is this uh corn starch uh is unpleasant, I think, as the sole uh thickener in a gravy. It just doesn't look right. You know what I mean? It looks like cornstarch sauce.
+
+[35:59] However, you can add some cornstarch to a sauce at the end to increase its thickening uh without uh compromising um, you know, as long as you know your initial base was flour, it will add that extra thickening and doesn't need to be cooked off the way flour does because it's a pure starch. You get what I'm saying? Uh another another thing is if you're doing southwest flavors, uh seca, masa harina is an interesting uh thickener that tends to disperse rather easily and thickens in, but it doesn't fully dissolve. You'll sometimes see some little particles of it and it adds a definite masa flavor to your product. But um, you know, I'll use I'll use uh a little bit of masa sometimes in uh flour in uh I don't use it in tortillas because you know I don't, but I sometimes use it in pancakes and I sometimes use it in sauces.
+
+[36:48] I'll sometimes, if you're making a if you're making a pressure cooked gravy, I sorry, a pressure cooked chili. So, so you know, to go to because gravy and you know, the the sauce and gravy, when you're pressure cooking a sauce like that, they tend to be too thin because it's hard to get the uh full kind of chili texture in a pressure cooker because if you if you set your base that way, it might scorch in your pressure cooker. And so typically when you're doing those kind of pressure cooked things, you'll extract the the meat and whatever else, and then you'll uh thicken and or reduce the liquids and put them back together again. Or sometimes I'll just toss in a pinch of uh masa uh of massa jarina in that. But that's only if you're going on more of a southwestern gravy, which I never do for Thanksgiving.
+
+[37:29] But anyway, uh I digress. So that's um that's kind of what where I would go with it. Okay, awesome. Um when you do your roux, do you do like a butter roux or like use like pure turkey fat? Like what kind of how do you set that up?
+
+[37:43] I've done both. I mean, in general, I have like a lot of uh, you know, on Thanksgiving, I have a lot of turkey fat kind of sitting around, and so I will I will use it. I honestly don't think there's that much of a difference. You know, I just I don't uh like in the grand scheme of things, I just don't I I never consider it uh, you know, uh it's kind of whatever is at hand at the moment. I mean, because also you know, whenever I'm shopping for Thanksgiving, the first thing on the list is like infinite pounds of butter, like infinite pounds of butter, because you got mashed potatoes, uh, you got your stuffing, that all requires butter.
+
+[38:17] You know, um if you're doing a roasted turkey, I'll base the hell out of that. That's butter. So it's like, you know, it's like you know, if you make biscuits or parker house rolls, butter, butter, butter, you know what I mean? So it's like butter or butter everywhere, you know. So uh I usually have a lot of it lying around.
+
+[38:31] But turkey fat also good. Alright, great. Well, thank you. All right, and uh I also don't care too much on how dark my roux is, because often, you know, like I like I say, my sauce is significantly brown already. So um anyway.
+
+[38:49] See, people they won the spinzall video contest. They like doing personal phone calls with you. What? I don't know. Anastasia's ran.
+
+[38:57] Anyway. All right, take a break, we'll be right back. Happy Thanksgiving. Cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978.
+
+[39:14] When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel.
+
+[39:38] It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's going to grow into a plant. It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%.
+
+[40:00] And it's the main source that's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour.
+
+[40:17] So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it. Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains. Learn more at Bob's Redmail.com/slash podcast. And we're back. And uh we're joined now in the studio with uh Heritage Radio founder, Patrick Martins.
+
+[40:48] Thanks for having me. So here's what he he caught, he literally walks in in the middle of the break, he's like, hey, listen, I know I called you during the radio, but he's like, you know, listen, you know how you can tell a heritage bird when you look at the picture? How is it, Patrick? High keelbone. High keel bone.
+
+[41:01] Round basketball breast, that is a ripoff, not heritage. He's like, he's like, he's like, I look at the magazines, they say they have a heritage bird, I look at the keel bone, not a good one. Why would it be like a basketball? Well, uh basically commodity, the broad-breasted white has been overbred for hundreds of generations to have huge breasts, huge big round basketball breasts. So if you see a round bird with a huge round breast and it's being sold as heritage, you know you're getting ripped off.
+
+[41:27] The other thing, birds over 24, 25 pounds, probably not heritage. Also, black pin feather marks is a sign that it is heritage, and also huge thick legs, where the legs are almost bigger than the breast. That's how you know it's heritage because they run around. So, Patrick, I hear I hear that are you gonna run a special uh in Heritage Meets for the after Thanksgiving? By the way, Turkey.
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+[41:49] Turkey, I was talking to Dax the other day. I have two questions I need to get before we go, but I I was talking to Dax uh the other day, and he and they were learning about uh like you know, first contact, you know, Columbus and whatnot. I was like, okay, so Dax, name a list of things that we have we have here, like you know, in in the new world that they didn't have in the old ones, he didn't come up with turkey. Turkey is like our thing. Well, you know, Dax was more right than you think, you know.
+
+[42:14] You don't give him enough credit. Because actually, the turkey came, the turkey we eat today was brought back to Europe by the early explorers, bred there and kind of what they say improved, and then brought back to the US. And that Europeanized breed was bred with the wild turkey, which is the turkey we eat today. So actually, we eat a Europeanized turkey. If you have it, just be just because the turkey moved to Europe for a you know a century or two doesn't mean it still doesn't come from here.
+
+[42:45] Dax is more modern than you. He's looking at more current history. You're going way back. I'm telling you, man, wacalote, wakalote. Did he get the tomato?
+
+[42:53] Did he get corn? He got corn. Okay. He got the tomato, he got the potato, which I was happy with. That's good.
+
+[43:00] He didn't get chocolate and he didn't get vanilla. Oh, he still has stuff to learn, Dax. Yeah, yeah. He didn't get chocolate, he didn't get vanilla. Uh what else?
+
+[43:08] There's so many things that are for only from here. You know what I mean? Uh, what else? What else? Salmon?
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+[43:13] Oh. Is that the same? No, there's more. No, there's ones over there. Uh most beans, most, or as Chesry would call them.
+
+[43:21] Beans. Beans. Uh anyway, so uh we're gonna keep uh Patrick here for a minute. I got a question, a couple questions I gotta get to. Micah writes in.
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+[43:31] Hopefully, I can sneak this in for today's show, and so you have. Uh Turduckin, I want to do a turduckin using boned-out whole birds. What's the best practice? I've got meat glue and a circulator. I'm serving enemy of quality.
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+[43:43] I'm serving enemies of quality, so a slightly overdone breast is the least of my worries. Cheers, Micah. Okay. Very important. So the the traditional um the traditional like uh Louisiana turduckin, right, is uh kind of uh backwards in terms of how it's assembled in for a modern palate and how we like to cook meat because the their duck, they're doing it simply based on size.
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+[44:10] And to put a duck inside uh, you know, uh they it's arranged such that you have to overcook the hell out of everything to cook you know the stuff that's on the inside. You know what I'm saying? It's like stuffing. Stuffing elongates the cooking time of a heritage turkey, so you're not supposed to put stuffing inside the heritage turkey. You're not supposed to stuff any bird.
+
+[44:28] Yeah, anything inside anything else leads to overcooking. Well, it doesn't, you it only overcooks it if you want to cook the stuffing to a temperature that's safe. Right. Like, in fact, like a technique that I use sometimes is uh I'll use hot stuffing. So it's actually it's difficult to it's difficult to do um hot stuffing uh because it burns the hell out of you, but um one way to really do a fast cook on a bird is to is to make a log of stuffing, then um put it in the oven, cook the hell out of it, or put it like in a zippy, cook the hell out of it, then rip the you know, cut the backbone like you're spatchcocking the bird, rip the rip the all the bones out of the kind of breast and back area, and then lay that like lay it over the super hot stuffing, and then it cooks from both directions and cooks route r rather quickly.
+
+[45:14] But it's an advanced technique. I'm not gonna say you guys are gonna do it because you probably won't, but it's fast and and and it's pretty good. Uh but turduckins typically are arranged in a way such that you have to overcook the duck. Now, a lot of old school people love overcooked duck, especially if you're using um people just like some people just like overcooked duck. I mean, think about this.
+
+[45:33] You like not the breast, but you like the legs when they're comfy, right? Dark meat, yeah. Those are horribly, but those are horribly they're the that you love them even though they're technically overcooked because you cook them enough such that they're tender. Unless you separate them early on. Which famous football coach and uh yeah, and announcer put Turduccan on the national map.
+
+[45:44] It had always existed. But there was one football announcer that mentioned it and it became a real big thing after that. You could you could say any person and I would say, okay, that's a football announcer. John Madden. Oh, really?
+
+[46:00] Yeah, ex-raiders coach. He brought it up. It was a letter. Where the hell does he have to know about it? I don't know, but he brought it up.
+
+[46:05] Isn't he a California guy? Uh well, he was a Raider coach. I don't know where he was born. Anyway, so back to the Turducens. If you have here's the problem with Turducken.
+
+[46:13] Uh I've made many, many of them low temperature. So Nils and I used uh what we used to do is we would arrange the birds in the order that they want to cook. So we would do actually, we would we did uh a turkey, then a chicken, then uh a duck, then a squab, and we would lay them and we would roll them. The problem is is that it's hard to get the roll to be centered. And then what you do is you throw everything into uh like sixty-seven uh degree um and you put sausage layers in between, obviously in 67 degree uh stuff, and then you pull it when the center, when the squab gets to be like 57, 58, and then everything is kind of cooked properly through the tube.
+
+[46:51] But you need the tube to be not too thick. And actually, when you slice through a bunch of meat like that that's perfectly cooked, it's a l it's a little off-putting, right? Nastasi, you've had it can be a little off-putting. Like looking at it or taste-wise. You have a giant target of meat, like it's a giant target of meat.
+
+[47:08] And I think in general, people would prefer to have like slices off of it that have like a little bit of each thing rather than like a giant, like like log like like arrow target of meat. I think it's and and especially if the middle of it is like rare, like squab, you know, 50, you know, fifty-seven, uh, you know, 56 uh because I when I'm cooking duck breast on its own, I cook it to 57 Celsix, which is 135. And then I'll crisp up the skin, and that's how I want my duck breast. A lot of old school Frenchies actually like it more cooked than that. When I'm cooking squab, it's lower, like 55, right?
+
+[47:43] But you want your turt, and then but turkey, all of that stuff is really moist when it's at like 66, uh, you know, so your ch your chicken in this case is gonna be at like 60 65, your turkey's gonna be like 66. All the stuff is kind of really wet and moist at that point, which is okay if you have a crispy outside and then a little piece. But when you're looking at something that's the size of your dinner plate and it's all that texture, it can be a little problematic. So uh one thing you can do is then cut the discs and fry the fry it so that those discs get like a crisp section all the way across, but maintain their cook section in the middle, and then make sure you have uh plenty of gravy. You can also comfy out the legs, mix them in with whatever sausage mixture you want and spread those in to get some textual variation, but it's all about textual variation in between.
+
+[48:26] Uh and just remember that you have to get smaller and smaller. Think about a sushi roll. The stuff that you put in a sushi roll, it looks like you're not putting enough into the middle, but then when you roll it, you realize that oh my god, I put too much in the middle, and now my nori doesn't close anymore. So when you're making a roll like that, you should look up on the cooking issues blog how to do rolling in plastic, because that's how you should do it if you're gonna do tube tube turduckins, which is kind of what we used to do. Um but anyway, that's how that's how we used to do it, and those are some of the things I I'd look out for.
+
+[48:54] I noticed in European, we have Americans make kind of value-added specialty meats for us, and Europeans do it. And the Europeans are always confident to put the various tastes and textures in different parts of a roast, like a porchetta, so that no one bite is the same. And if you want the kind of salty, meaty stuff, that's only every third or fourth bite. Whereas the Americans try to put everything all in one. So every single bite is like a home run hit, and it's not like as nuanced.
+
+[49:20] Well, all of Porchetta is flavored. It's just it's crispy on the outside. Well, it has like uh rings of different things. So you can't do it. Yeah.
+
+[49:29] I mean, like, wait, but wait, you have your porchetta has different things in the rings? Well, you can't get all the tastes in one bite because it's a big piece, and the Europeans will do that, whereas the Americans seem to mush everything together, and you do get one thing. I don't know about that. Yeah, I think I love Porquetta. Oh my god, I love Porchetta.
+
+[49:45] Well, porquetta is often ripped off because it's often like shoulder or just the loin, it's not the deboned pork metal wrapped around the belly. Di Paolo's uh Italian specialty foods store makes it a fantastic porchetta, I think. Do you like their porchetta, right? Nastasi is a picky, a picky lady. Porchetta.
+
+[50:02] And theirs is very simple, super simple. Am I allowed to ask about pasta flyer on there? Yeah, in one minute though. Uh so you're gonna have some turkeys left over? Uh, we're gonna have a thousand turkeys left over.
+
+[50:13] So people should be ordering uh birds for after Thanksgiving. People don't give the turkey. I think everyone's like, I was listening to NPR, and they're like, 'Oh, turkey, yeah, what do you do with it? Turkey's bland turkey is not bland. Turkey tastes like turkey, turkey is delicious, turkey gets a bad rent.' But people who don't think about life, they think they think they're The Wall Street Journal always dumps on the turkey too, because they think it's too expensive.
+
+[50:37] The heritage breed, so they try to say, Oh, uh, turkey doesn't really taste of anything. Inevitably, the Wall Street Journal will write an article every single Thanksgiving saying that the $200 turkey is a ripoff. What do you do to what do? What'd you do to them to uh to there? That's just their shtick.
+
+[50:49] And the New York Times goes the other direction. Their food section is always trying to say, oh, you know, you might want to pay for quality. The Wall Street Journal, that is their thing. It's anti-slow food. But I mean, in general, I like the flavor of turkey and don't find turkey to be bland or without flavor or I mean, I think it's difficult to cook because all whole animals are difficult to cook, and it's one of the only times we take on the challenge of cooking a whole animal is on uh well, chickens we do, but we're used to chickens and and on Thanksgiving with the turkey.
+
+[51:18] The taste of turkey that most Americans know is just added salt because it's the commodity turkey where they add salt to it to add flavor. But the heritage turkey is you know one of the best meats in the world, has a higher percentage of dark meat. So, Patrick, what do you think of commodity turkeys? Just messing with you. So are you gonna run a sale after Thanksgiving or no?
+
+[51:37] Well, we take $10 or $12 off. That doesn't uh it doesn't discount how much the turkey costs to grow. So I mean we can't discount it too much, but yeah, it's definitely cheaper. Yeah, because it's frozen. Yeah, and I think but I think that's what I'm saying.
+
+[51:49] People should think about the turkey as an all-year, for instance, if you want to make your traditional uh so these would be closer then to like something for a traditional like Wahalote for like a mole or something. Well, all seasonal meat should be eaten a lot of when they're in season. Turkeys are seasonal meat, ducks, geese, lamb, goat. All the other animals have sex all the time. They're available all the time.
+
+[52:10] Nice. Uh all right. I'm gonna take this question real quick and then we'll then you can do the pasta flour question. Ready? Yeah, then we gotta go.
+
+[52:16] All right. So uh I got it, we got a question in from Prashant. By the way, uh I had a good friend in high school named Prashant, and he was the guy who at our reunion came back and was not forgiving of anyone that had bothered him. He was the guy who at the high school reunion was like, You sucked in high school. I hated you in high school.
+
+[52:35] And he still held the grudge. Wow, 20, 30 years. So yeah, I was like, Prashant, man. That's impressive. I was like, What'd you do to him?
+
+[52:41] I never hold a grudge to graduate. No, he was my friend yeah. I was I was standing next to him, and like, you know, someone would come up who, you know, was a dick in high school, or and and he would be like, You were a dick. I don't forgive you. And then they would walk away.
+
+[52:55] I was like, you love it. I I love it, but it's like it's it's it's kind of like watching Veeep or or or meet Meet the Falkers. Like I've cringe a little bit, but I it's I love it. Are you still a bully to people? Or have you been?
+
+[53:05] It wasn't a bully. He was the guy who used to, he was Prashant is the reason for a lot of my musical taste. He would make me all mixtapes of like So this isn't you. This is really you're not just using a friend as an example because it was really friends. I had this friend who was really insecure.
+
+[53:21] It's not me. He wasn't insecure at all. That's my whole point. Dave, get to the question. Anyway, uh, this is Prashant.
+
+[53:27] And before I ask my question, I want uh to let you and Dave know that I am not a chef. I just cook for myself. Being Indian using a lot of spices, I have been wondering about the science behind them and how they interact/slash change during the process of cooking. Is there any resource appropriate for my level you could direct me to? I'm looking to improve the flavors of my dishes and was hoping that knowing the science would help.
+
+[53:46] And it's a difficult question because uh I think a lot of people when they focus on the science of spices in particular, it tends to quickly devolve into a discussion of this particular chemical or that particular chemical. I would say in general, obviously, anything that Harold McGee writes is something you should look at. And uh he has a couple segments in um Mind of the Chef that you know I I would look to. Um there's a couple of books that are about pairing on a quote unquote molecular level, and uh as a thesis, I find it problematic at best. I think, you know, we should, instead of focusing, I think sometimes the chemistry can be very interesting, but focusing on the chemistry, I think really uh turns off kind of what you're uh, you know, what's going on in your palate and your mind.
+
+[54:37] I think there's certain things that you know are very useful. Like I say to keep in mind that, for instance, like if you know things are sulfur-based, you know that they're gonna react, you know, rather violently with heat, change a lot. I mean, with heat, like alliums, onions, things like that. Um, but I don't know. I would check out, I mean, obviously, if you don't have on food and cooking, go buy on food and cooking.
+
+[54:54] His next book might address this a lot more because it's gonna go into chemical compounds, like how terpenes work, how things like this work. But I think most people tend to just throw around words like terpene and not actually use it to help them become uh a better cook. Look at what you can look for um you know what Mandy Aftel and uh and um you know Patterson have done recently, like uh, you know, that's got some interesting stuff on how this stuff interplays and some of the science behind it, uh, you know, because he's it he's interested in those things and she's interested in those things, but it is rather uh difficult. We always get we should get err when Arielle's on the show next, we'll ask her for, you know, she's our our flavor, she's not a flavor chemist, that's a different thing, but she is she's a chemist who studies flavor, right? But she's not like she's not a flavorist.
+
+[55:39] Yeah, it's a different thing. She does not live in New Jersey, she's at MIT. But we'll have her on uh maybe we'll we can have her on before the uh before the she's coming back in December? All right. So Patrick, you had a question now.
+
+[55:51] Pasta fire. I mean, how are all the Italian restaurants in the city dealing with how this pasta is so good and so cheap? I mean, do you think it's gonna drive down the pasta at restaurants around the city? Because I mean, for seven dollars, you get a pasta that's as good as basically almost any other restaurant. I mean, Italian food is supposed to be cheap.
+
+[56:13] So when people charge a lot of things, what is this supposed to be? I mean inexpensive. Why is it supposed to be inexpensive? I think Italian food is basically just seasonal things, simple. So you go to Massimo Botoro's restaurant and you're like, oh, supposed to be inexpensive over here.
+
+[56:27] Well, that's the thing, yeah. Il Molino, these expensive restaurants where you're eating, you know, spending forty-five dollars for a pasta is, you know, now Mark is doing it for seven. So I mean, it's unbelievable. I mean, he's basically proven that pasta should never cost more than eight or ten bucks. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[56:42] Well, I mean truffles is what yeah. I I disagree with the premise because it's like food isn't just about like any one particular dish. Like food at a restaurant, like I think look, I think the problem is is that we put so much emphasis on high what's called a high-end uh cooking that we kind of the the flavor of a dish is different from the ingredients that you use and the staff that you have to pay for and the time and the stuff you're throwing away. I mean, it's not always about the skill of execution of a particular dish, you know, and you know, because you know, Pasfire, you know, Stasia can talk about it, you know, they spent a boat ton of money on the back end to get the stuff such that because they know they're gonna do it in huge amount of bulk and they've erased the need for a hyper skilled person at every second to be looking at it. Like that's where all the money is spent, but that doesn't mean that the money where someone charges at a restaurant is valid because they have different overhead, they have different a different expectation of uh, you know, the service you get at the table, a different expectation for all of that stuff.
+
+[57:48] That's true. That's true. I just think it's uh it's basically saying you can have a world-class quality pasta for seven bucks. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, but Nastasia's not illegally butchering a rabbit in the in the back of pasta flyer and making like you know, but they spend a lot of money on other things.
+
+[58:05] They spend a lot of money on equipment and all that, and they do have a big staff. I mean, it still requires the staff to run the fast food trap. How fast is it? How fast is the pickup stuff? How fast is the register takes more time to pay than it does to get the pasta?
+
+[58:19] That's how quick the boss is. Yeah, the pickup is like instant. And when I take it to go on the L train all the way to Brooklyn, it's still exquisite. Yeah, these guys are the these guys are the Clarence Birdseye of pasta. Oh, I mean, yeah, the frozen peas right there.
+
+[58:30] Clarence Birdseye. Yay! Yo, hey, yo, whoa, hey. It's amazing. The pasta flyer pasta is amazing.
+
+[58:38] It's so delicious. Everybody says it. Italian people I work with, everybody. It's unbelievable. You work with Italian people?
+
+[58:45] Yeah. I speak five languages. Right here. Nastasia, you? I used to speak Italian well.
+
+[58:52] I do not speak it well anymore. You speak Dave Davish. I speak Dave Arnold very well. Oh, come on, please. Please.
+
+[58:59] Hey, you know what we need to bring back? Use. Use guys. Use use. You mean young people?
+
+[59:04] No, use. Not youth. Those are the can't you speak English? It's yet? Like, how do you say sandwich?
+
+[59:13] You gotta we gotta bring back the sandwich. Sandwich. Sandwich. Sandwich. Sandwich.
+
+[59:17] Sandwich. Anyway, like uh I was I was watching the Vietnam documentary and listening to the um this is not this is this this is about to get political. No, no, no. I was listening to the New York accents from the they they were interviewing protesters on both sides in in the seven in the six sixties and seventies in New York, and we just don't have those kind of accents. Everyone sounds a little bit like Bugs Bunny because Bugs Bunny's original accent was based on you know a New York, like a hodgepodge of New York accents, and most of those accents, those like kind of awesome kind of I mean, I like them.
+
+[59:52] Like working class, like New York accents. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, regional dialects, regional accents are all being phased out. Yeah. You know, it's sad.
+
+[1:00:02] Yeah. Languages. Uh you know, well, well, it's not necessarily sad. I think it's sad. Uh, you know.
+
+[1:00:08] So do you have something happy to end with on Thanksgiving, Patrick? Anti-homogenization menu uh um idea. Uh, yeah, well, it's a Thanksgiving. It's the one holiday that everyone celebrates, right? I mean, who doesn't celebrate Thanksgiving?
+
+[1:00:21] Foreigners. Well, yeah, I'm saying. In America. Dak says to me Native Americans. Dak says to me, ooh, well, that's Dak Dak says to me, who goes to 7-Eleven on Thanksgiving, Dad?
+
+[1:00:34] I was like, hey, we have plenty of foreigners here who don't care about Thanksgiving and they need somewhere to go shop. Right? That's true. You know? Hopefully they're going to Dean and DeLuca or something, but yeah, 7-Eleven, maybe.
+
+[1:00:45] That's sure that's everyone's first stop when they get to New York. They're like, uh, Brandon Cook, Dean De Luca. All right, final thoughts. Uh Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
+
+[1:00:53] Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:01:18] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[1:01:45] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at Bobsredmill.com slash podcast. My name is Hannah Fordin. I'm the membership coordinator at Heritage Radio Network, but even before I joined the team, I loved listening to HRN during my subway commute. It made the time go quickly and left me feeling inspired for the day ahead.
+
+[0:30] HRN listeners tune in from all over the world. But there are a few traits that we all have in common, no matter where we listen from. A curious palate, the fierceness to make a difference, and a hunger for lifelong learning about the culinary world. As you know, Heritage Radio Network is a listener-supported nonprofit. To deliver the most ambitious, entertaining, and of the moment stories in 2018, we need your help.
+
+[0:58] We need to raise 150,000 by December 31st to accomplish these goals and to keep your favorite shows on the air. Together, we can make this HRN's most exciting, impactful, and delicious year yet. Become a member by donating today. Join us at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate, and you'll immediately start enjoying benefits such as VIP invitations to HRN events, where you will mix and mingle with your favorite hosts. Memberships also make a perfect holiday gift for all the foodies in your life.
+
+[1:34] This year, why not give the gift of food radio? You'll hear your generosity and action for the year to come. Help keep our lights on and our mics hot by pledging your support today at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[2:00] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. We got Dave in the booth.
+
+[2:15] Or maybe not. I don't know. He was in the booth. I'm here, good. Oh, nice.
+
+[2:18] All right. Your mic was acting up on you. Yeah, you know, things. This is why we need your money. Uh, you know, we gotta we gotta get new things to keep the operation rolling here.
+
+[2:26] They're actually like swap like Nastasi's like running into the other room with the extra mic. That's how much that's how uh you know much money they need here. How much are you at right now? David. Dave in the booth.
+
+[2:39] I think that's confidential. Uh really. No, actually, I don't I don't know off the top of my head. I mean, are we doing well? I I really don't know.
+
+[2:45] Should people give money? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And what you heard from there was our special guest of the day, Paul Adams, who is the wait, the editor and editor. What's your title over there?
+
+[2:56] I can never get title. You know I hate titles. Yes. It it's more difficult because my title is different every day. Today I am senior research editor at Cooks Illustrated.
+
+[3:07] Oh, not at America's Test Kitchen anymore. America's Test Kitchen owns Cooks Illustrated, or vice versa, or something. Exactly. Exactly, but they they are two separate names, are they not? I mean, in other words, like they're just yeah.
+
+[3:20] If you look at them closely, they're not the same name. Yes, yes. Letters don't map one to one. I deal with mostly the print magazine Cooks Illustrated. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[3:32] Since when? I thought you were on their website. Now you're on their print side all the time. Every day it's different, Dave. Well, you're not here to talk about that.
+
+[3:39] Although I have to say, Cooks Illustrated, when it came out in 1993, I believe was the first year. You know, I have that. I was I had all the initial first ones. And those works money. Really?
+
+[3:44] Yeah. I also have them bound. I have the bound ones. Like 10 bucks. Wow.
+
+[3:55] For the whole the whole year's work. Go on eBay. All right. Well, uh, no, instead, Paul is. Donate a percentage to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[4:05] Oh, there you go. Instead, Paul Adams is here to promote his new cat. I have a brand new kitten. She is adorable. Her name is The Bat, because she resembles a bat.
+
+[4:14] And you can see her at my Twitter account, which is Salad Puma. So uh do you want to hear a story about bats? Yes. So I I can't tell. Actually, I it's I can't tell this story.
+
+[4:26] It's not that you I can't tell the story, is that I should not tell the story. Is it guano? No, although one of my favorite words, guano. Is it a culinary story about bats? No, I'll say this.
+
+[4:36] If you late at night, this is not about me. This is not one of those things where I'm not talking about myself because I like I'll embarrass myself, right? You know, at the drop of a hat. Uh so if late at night you should find uh a bat swimming about in your toilet, like what not to do is just pee on the bat, close the toilet seat, and then go to bed. Who did that?
+
+[5:01] I'm not gonna say. Because the next day, right, if you haven't like if you haven't like maintained uh the bat's gonna drown if you close the lid. This is just an FYI. Bat's gonna drown if you close the lid. But uh you then have to fish the bat out and they have to test it for rabies because you that you haven't like uh what's the word I'm looking for?
+
+[5:22] You haven't uh fully accounted for all the time the bat was in the house, and you know, some bat bites you can't tell if you're bitten by the bat because you can't tell. So you might have to fish the bat out of the toilet after you've peed on it. So first fish it out and then pee on it. The correct answer is first fish it out. First fish it out and then.
+
+[5:40] But rabies can't swim up the urine stream. No, no, no. They they can do it. So the problem might be if you I mean definitely don't poop on the bat, because then it can bite you in the behind. How are you able to pee on it without it flying?
+
+[5:54] No, no, no. The question is that maybe it was flying around the house prior to this because it ended up in your toilet. So it was clearly in your house without your knowledge because it ended up in your toilet. How did it get in your toilet? In the middle of the night.
+
+[6:04] You know what I'm saying? So you were at some point sleeping with a bat. You went to bed, and presumably there was no bat in your toilet. You wake up, you go to the bat. Right.
+
+[6:15] Well, you don't know that. That's the thing. You don't know if you got, you know, if you were bitten in the meantime, uh, you know, odds are you aren't. So the the the moral of the story is fish the bat out prior to peeing. Or maybe test yourself for bat bites at that second.
+
+[6:28] I don't know. So how do you fish the bat out? Uh I don't I wasn't there for it, and that's you know, a question that I never asked. So I don't know. I will ask.
+
+[6:37] I will ask when I when I next see the person who who's there. Yeah. And what and their name again was? Uh that that is the confidential part because I don't know if they wish me to share the story of uh I have so many people that I see over Thanksgiving and then the wedding I just went to uh two days ago. By the way, I thought I was gonna get my Christmas tree, Nastasia, on Sunday, and then I realized I so I spent, you know, uh my uh elementary school years in um New Jersey, most of it in New Jersey, in a place called Bergen County.
+
+[7:07] Bergen County is right across the river from the George Washington Bridge from Upper Manhattan, right? And so in the 70s they had these things called blue Laws, where none of the stores were open on Sunday. You couldn't buy anything other than food, basically, foods on the setting in the county. What? That's how they talk in the county.
+
+[7:27] Uh no, no, no. It's uh it's I'm still in my mind quoting uh Wesley Willis songs. It's uh don't a don't ask me for for sugar honey iced tea is one of his songs is don't ask me to pay for your foods. Anyway, so like uh Dax can t I stupidly put Dax on to Wesley Willison's now he whenever he's in the car alone with me, he just plays Wesley Willis songs constantly over the over the radio. Which just shows what a bad parent I am to like it's inappropriate, whatever.
+
+[7:52] That's not the point. So the point is I'm like, I'm gonna get my Christmas tree because obviously these blue laws have been repealed since, you know, nineteen seventy you know, eight. Nope. Nope. They're still there.
+
+[8:02] If you go to Mitsua Market, which is the amazing Japanese market in Edgewater, New Jersey, if you go on a Sunday, the appliance aisle is barricaded because you can shop in the market, but you can't shop the appliance aisle. Which makes a lot of sense because um, you know, the internet's closed on Sundays. So yeah, yeah. I mean back in the 70s the argument was, well, if everybody's closed on Sundays, then it just gives everyone a a day off and we're not in this kind of mutually assured destruction rate. I mean, it started with you know, blue laws, like you you shouldn't be shopping on the Lord's Day.
+
+[8:33] You know what I mean? But uh at this point, you know, they should switch it to Saturday anyway, and then you know what I mean, like it's like none of it makes any sense anymore. Yeah, the internet is competition. You can go to malls. It used to also be Bergen County was the county of malls, like Paramus was where all the malls were.
+
+[8:48] Uh, you know, and you're like, I'm what am I gonna drive? A whole county away just to go shopping? By the way, New Jersey counties are not like, you know, big state counties. New Jersey counties are like the size of this table. So anyway, uh, interesting fact that the blue laws are still there.
+
+[9:03] Why are they called blue laws? I don't know. I don't know. To give you a blue something else. Uh a blue what?
+
+[9:11] A blue like a singing, you're not singing uh I'll have a blue Christmas without you from uh A Year Without a Santa Claus, are you? Nope. Because I watched that last night. I haven't watched Rudolph yet, though, Nastasia. Have you watched?
+
+[9:21] How many times have you watched that? I haven't watched. I haven't watched it. I think someone needs to take a picture. Nastasia is wearing the Christmas hat that I want to be the prize for some of our contest.
+
+[9:30] I don't know where to get it. Well, I'm sure one of our intrepid, you know, listeners, if we take a picture of your Christmas picture. There's a good one of us eating a pizza with you looking at me angry on the internet. If that's any picture of us eating pizza together. Yeah, that checks out.
+
+[9:43] Yeah. Um, so how was your bird, Nastasia? Uh good. Yeah, you cooked a uh a heritage bird. Oh, it was pretty tough.
+
+[9:51] What? Yeah. See, this is what Nastasia is always into the brutal honesty. Wait, Dave, how are your two stop and shop birds? Wow.
+
+[10:02] Brutal honesty. I'll tell you what they were. First of all, it was three shop and stop birds, and they were how many people? What? You did three turkeys?
+
+[10:10] I did three turkeys. How many people? Uh what's 18 and 8? Uh 26. 26.
+
+[10:17] 26 people. I did I did three turkeys. Uh seems excessive, but go on. Uh there. Is it there's no such thing as excessive turkey.
+
+[10:26] Like I said before, I happen to be in the small, correct, smart percentage of the people who think that turkey is a delicious bird and then delicious meat, and you can't have too much turkey. Everyone's like, oh, turkey, no flavor. We talked about this before at Thanksgiving. Oh, it's good, but it's great. It's great.
+
+[10:44] It's not a good thing. What? In what way is it revolting? First of all, wild turkey is very smart. Everyone also says turkeys are stupid.
+
+[10:53] Go hunt turkeys and tell me turkeys are stupid. Why is it so hard to get a turkey if they're so damn stupid? Turkey turkeys, right? Unlike you know, a dumb chicken, which I love, right? Turkeys like sleep on the tops of trees, come down and eat and go back up.
+
+[11:08] That's so polar. Turkeys, like that giant bird goes up and sleeps in the top of a tree. Think about that. And uh, you know, turkeys are uh a delicious and they smell delicious, and people should eat more of them. That's what I was trying to tell Patrick before is that he needs to tell people that turkey is not just for Thanksgiving, although he's like, it's one of the only seasonal meats, it's turkeys, they only have sex one time of year.
+
+[11:33] You want to get a turkey around Thanksgiving, uh it's the best time to get the turkeys, but the fact that that's my Patrick Martin's voice, by the way. And by the way, he does sound like that. So, unlike my normal voices where they sound nothing like the person, that sounds kind of like it's actually not even my imitation of Patrick Martin's. It's Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drinks imitation. Everyone's favorite.
+
+[11:52] I am Patrick Martins, host of the main course. That's his more measured tones. I am Patrick Martins. Uh so, anyways, so uh I did uh yeah, three turkeys, and it was not excessive. I didn't actually have that many leftovers, but uh I did two, I did uh completely uh boned out and chicken fried, right?
+
+[12:14] So for that one, you completely bone them out, uh, you chop up the bones, roast them, and do a double stock in the pressure cooker, which means that you know, while you guys are sitting there using your canned chicken broth and your freaking pan drippings to make gravy. Meanwhile, I have like you know, ten cups of a very rich double stock to turn into a gravy. So all I need to do is uh, you know, thicken it and add some freaking sherry. That's all I have to do to get a nice kind of a gravy, right? Unlike you, chumps.
+
+[12:45] I'm pointing at you two in the room. Although how was your turkey? I'm not a connoisseur of turkey. My parents make the turkey. Okay.
+
+[12:53] And it always tastes just fine to me, like a Thanksgiving turkey. And one then a few days later I get the feedback from my parents. That was not a very good turkey, was it, Paul? Really, I didn't notice. I was just there for the companionship.
+
+[13:08] Wow. That I'm and the stuffing. I am ne oh, stuffing, yeah, I love stuffing. I was I am never there for the companionship. Right.
+
+[13:15] Right. It's not true. That sounds right. What's your ratio of meat to gravy? Uh when I'm eating it.
+
+[13:24] When you're I don't put gravy on the meat. I put gravy on the stuffing and on the potatoes because I try to not overcook the meat to the point that I need to put gravy on it to eat it. Hmm. So better with gravy no matter what degree it's cooked to. Actually, I do the same thing, actually.
+
+[13:40] I don't like gravy on my turkey. Yeah, I don't like I'm gonna do it. I also like gravy gravy ruins the stuffing. Stuffing is so perfect without gravy. I like it, but but what about what about what about gravy on your potatoes?
+
+[13:52] Hmm. I like gravy on the turkey meat. I don't, I don't. I I don't like I I don't put sauces typically unless it's a braise, you know, uh, on my meats, on my roasted meats. I don't put sauces typically.
+
+[14:07] This is why, like, I favor styles of uh barbecue where the meat tastes good on its own, as opposed to, and I'm not a huge fan of this is why everyone gets pissed uh mad at me, is uh because like you know, I I'm like, can I taste the meat before you slather it with vinegar and tomato products? You know what I mean? Can I just taste it before you slather it with sugar tomato, which by the way, all that stuff tastes good. Like I think barbecue sauce tastes great on French fries, you know what I mean? Or maybe you know, a little bit on the meat, but do you are you a big fan of that stuff too?
+
+[14:38] No. All right. So I the trick with the with the breaking the uh turkey apart is uh cutting the pieces into individual sized pieces into the size pieces that they would be word a chicken. And the other thing that's a pain in the butt, and I've said this a couple years ago, but I didn't say it this year, is that when I was a kid, you could buy turkeys, and Nastasi won't remember this. I don't think Paul, you won't remember this.
+
+[15:00] You could buy turkeys where they had taken the tendons out of the legs. So you used to be able to buy uh unless this is some sort of dream I've had that's been reimprinted on my path they used to make a machine where butchers could go pop up, rip the tendons out of the leg and still have the leg there, which is why I detest the the um I detest the Disney World uh turkey leg that they sell you. Uh not because the turkey leg tastes bad, I mean it's you know, I think it's just a smoked kind of overly dry thing, because they don't remove the tendons, and so you have that stick with all those freaking tendons sticking out of it. It's the tendons in the in the legs that are the unpleasant part of dealing with turkey. Uh true.
+
+[15:39] Yeah. What happened to the detendonizer machine? I don't know. I don't I think it was just a dream. No, it was not a dream.
+
+[15:46] It was real. So I remember you used to be able to buy quartz of turkey tendon. What? No. Yeah.
+
+[15:52] Anyway, so uh well, they don't render out nicely like a beef tendon does. You know what I mean? But so anyway, the point being that uh what you do there is you cut the uh especially the leg parts apart, make sure that you cook the legs separately in a bag. I cook them in a in a I cook them in a milk brine. I do the low temp cooking in a milk brine, and I take it a couple degrees higher than I would do for myself, just so that everyone's super happy.
+
+[16:14] Like I do like a 67 and a 65 for the white anyway. So you cook the legs separately, pull them out, let them flash off and cool, and then rip the tendons out before you bred them. Don't try to remove the tendons from the legs prior to cooking them because there lies anger. You know what I mean? More anger.
+
+[16:33] More anger more anger than it's necessary. But interestingly, this year, I have a policy with Thanksgiving and any large event where you're gonna let people bring food of a no oven policy. A no oven. What about Peter Kim's stew? Well, in other words, I won't use the oven.
+
+[16:49] So like my oven is entirely for the guests. Oh. Because guess guess in fact, I bought a separate oven just so that guests could use it, and I had a toaster oven. It's like it's like I want to use as little of my equipment when people are in my house as is humanly possible because everybody is like, well, I'm sure I can just throw in these rolls at 400 degrees for 20 minutes right before we eat, right? You know what I mean?
+
+[17:14] Although my but my mother did a dishwasher. My mother-in-law brought the rolls and she doesn't do that. She brings them all done and nice and stuff like this. No, but dishwashers, Nastasia, take an hour and a half to two hours ago. Oh, I wish I had.
+
+[17:24] That my dream is someone who makes, and by the way, I mentioned this before on the radio. Louis Armstrong, uh uh, my wife uh at the firm she used to work at had a project at Louie Armstrong's house in Queens, and uh and they were looking at it because they're they're, I guess, preserving it. I don't know whether it's a museum, but the house is preserved. Louie Armstrong's house in Queens is preserved. Yes.
+
+[17:44] And his dishwasher, this was their Christmas card one year. His dishwasher had a button. Remember how old dishwashers used to have buttons on them, like similar to an Oysterizer blender, still has to this day. Those little click buttons. Yep.
+
+[17:57] And one was party. And so they they just took a picture of his dishwasher control panel, and then they were like, and then the title was set to party. And that was their Christmas invitation to the architecture firm that year. Yeah. So the reason why, you know, uh home dishwashers uh don't work uh quickly is because they want to A save energy, uh, and B, they want to be quiet, and C, they don't want to be too rough on your dishes, right?
+
+[18:25] These so commercial dishwashers, A, take a lot of energy, uh B are relatively rough on your dishes, right? Uh and they're B is they're loud and C. B is they're loud. Yeah, and they're rough. C is they're rough, yeah.
+
+[18:38] And so, but the only real difference, you could take, you know, pick your quiet dishwasher of choice, Bosch, whatever, uh, and all you all you need to do, by the way, Hobart could do this because they make it is put a boiler unit in it, right? And then say, you know what? I want this sucker to run like a commercial dishwasher for the next, you know, three hours. Heat up that boiler, and the other problem with commercial dishwashers is they don't automatically uh get rid of all of the gunk you have to like drain it once you put solids in, so that's why you have to pre-rance better for those things. But you could you could have a home dishwasher that runs like a commercial during a party and be doing like minute cycles, you know, minute and a half cycles where they're coming out blazing hot and going bang, bang, bang.
+
+[19:25] It would be so amazing. Wouldn't you love that, Paul? With a party button, I would. With a party button. Well, yeah, you wouldn't call it set to commercial because that doesn't sound fun.
+
+[19:32] No. You said set to party. And then, you know, in party mode, the boiler comes on, it, you know, you know, your energy usage goes way up, it's loud as all get out, but who cares because you're at a party. You know what I'm saying? Yes.
+
+[19:45] So no one's setting it to party. You know, it's you're not having the Carthusian monks over, and like, you know, everyone has a vow of freaking silence and you're interrupting it with your dishwasher, you know. Sometimes I do have the monks over. Yeah, no, Paul's like, you you want to drink, and they're like, they don't answer. And you're like, oh yeah, I forget.
+
+[20:06] You only drink like two days a year when you're toasting, you know, like uh like Good Friday or whatever, like yes, but yeah. They're not heavy drinkers, those Carthusians, even though they make the chartreuse. Did you know that? They only have two times. Uh well, no, they didn't come.
+
+[20:22] That's the thing. They didn't come and party. They're not about partying. They don't even care whether you like the liquor or not. They're like, we sell it.
+
+[20:28] They used to, they used to make iron. They were iron workers, and then when the iron ran out, they were like, well, we could uh make uh booze. Although they didn't say that because they don't talk. Right. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:39] They thought it. They thought it to each other. I don't think they have telepathy, but if they did, they would use that accent for their telepathy, whatever the French version of that accent is for their telepathy. It's a weird thing, those guys, because they make a high really high quality product, but they really don't care about it in the way that you and I care about products. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:56] They care that they're doing a good job because it's through work that they become closer. One of the ways they become closer to God is through work, right? But like the Mennonites, like the Martins Brothers pretzels, which are some of my favorite pretzels on earth, right? Uh, but uh they don't care whether you like it or not. It's not, it's not doesn't factor into their equation.
+
+[21:14] Isn't that weird? Do they get married? No, they're monks. Can we get a monk on the show? No, I mean, they can sit there.
+
+[21:25] Oh, we do have a monk. Yeah. Hello. They have the best, like the Carthusians have the nicest wool habits, like so nicely made, the wool habits. Apparently, when you join the Carthusians, you have to choose whether you're gonna go the father route or the brother route.
+
+[21:41] And they have different kinds of jobs. What are the jobs? Well, one's I guess more of a priestly route, and the other one's more of a monkey mount route. Anyway, like one's more working and the other one's more sit around and contemplate. Which I'm terrible.
+
+[21:56] What yeah, you what? I would work. Yeah. Well, for you and I sitting around contemplating, please poke my eyes out. I can't imagine anything I'd less rather be on earth than some sort of a Zen person.
+
+[22:07] You know what I mean? Like, like I could, you know how some people are like, oh, Zen, you know, it's like when you're working, it's like Zen. Well, I don't know, if in that way, maybe I could do that, but just like sitting and like contemplating. What are you gonna do when you become leather man? He walks and contemplates.
+
+[22:23] That's what I'm saying. Like, people are like, it's like my worst nightmare is going to the beach, right? Because unless I'm searching for clams, love that. Going caw hogging at the beach, awesome. What about reading?
+
+[22:33] Can't you read at the beach? It's too bright. It's too freaking bright. Why would I do that? I would go inside and read or go to the woods and read.
+
+[22:41] Or yeah, sit on a deck and read. But I don't like the sand to touch me. Whatever. My point is is that like, and plus, when you have kids, Nastasia, you're supposed to watch the kids. So I'm literally pretending I'm dead at the beach, watching the kids to make sure they don't drown, and being like, why why am I here?
+
+[22:59] I'm not, I'm not gathering food. I'm not cooking food, I don't have a margarita in my hand, and I'm not reading, right? You like being in the seed? Yes, I like being in the sea. That's why I go to the beach.
+
+[23:11] Yes, I like being in the sea. You could buy that cooler with the margarita maker on it. Uh my wife is not so much on me watching the kids at the beach while I'm pounding margaritas. It's not considered, you know, it's not considered father of the year. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:29] Oh, that's that dad. Yes. Ooh, that dad. Yeah, you want to take a call? Yeah, sure.
+
+[23:34] Caller, you're on the air. Hello, how are you? Doing well yourself? Doing well. Good.
+
+[23:41] So I have a quick question. Um I bought one of the instant pot electronic uh uh pressure cookers, and I've got one of the ones with the yogurt buttons. And uh a lot of people seem to like to do it without doing the usual 180-degree boil step of uh of cooking if they use uh the fair life hyper uh ultra pasteurized milk. And I'm wondering, is this safe? It it seems like uh an odd choice.
+
+[24:15] Plus, it's lactose-free, and I always thought that was what the bacteria was eating in order to make yogurt. That those are all excellent questions. Paul, do you know anything about this? I don't know fair life. I bring my milk to about 165, and it's all about texture.
+
+[24:34] What happens if you're gonna do it? If I don't do that, it's a much thinner, runnier yogurt, which I don't enjoy. And is it be well, so presumably, right, heating the milk does a couple of things. One, you're killing off anything that was there that's not what you want, right? That's one.
+
+[24:44] Presumably. And if you're pitching in a culture, right, then you can probably fairly easily swamp anything that is already in there, right? Because it's not there that long. And those things are gonna be even if you heat it, right? The odds that you get zero other stuff in are low.
+
+[25:04] And so really with yogurt, you're you're counting on competition to win and the drop in pH to also ward off any nasties that might be uh present, right? Right. I mean, and in fact, like in the old days, prior to milk was pasteurized, it's it's inherent beasties were enough to drop the pH. So like old sour clabbered milk does not taste anything like uh modern uh pasteurized milk that's gone bad in your fridge. It's an entirely different uh set of uh uh microbes.
+
+[25:34] Anyway, so there's that. And then the other thing, as Paul is saying with texture, is as you heat it, you will be denaturing uh some of the proteins and therefore altering how they agglomerate. And that must be what you're getting on the texture. Have you done any research on it, Paul? I haven't done research.
+
+[25:53] I've done experimentation at 165, 170, 175, and 180 because I make a lot of yogurt at home, and 165 gives me the thickest, tangiest yogurt. 180 gives a thinner, blander yogurt. And what about this whole thing about the yeast having the uh the bacteria uh you know having the the having enough to eat if there's if the lactose has been removed? I have no idea. I've never tried making yogurt with lactose-free milk.
+
+[26:25] It sounds like it wouldn't work. Sounds like it you I mean, well, yeah, we have the thing it works, right? So I mean there's obviously other stuff in there that they can eat. You know what I mean? So you're actually bringing it to like one ninety ish.
+
+[26:41] Um it it definitely sets up nicer and it sets up fine. I I don't even need to strain it in order to make a a pretty thick yogurt. Um but I I was just curious because again I I always thought that it was eating the lactose maybe it likes it that it's already broken down. I don't know. Oh oh yeah I mean I don't even really so like uh I haven't even looked at so what they're doing is they're pre-adding the enzyme to break it down, right?
+
+[27:08] That's what they do to lactose yeah so they're adding lactase before yeah so I'm sure you're you're just probably saving them a step. You know they probably don't get uh that much energy from breaking that it's more of the actual uh you know there's probably it doesn't take that much energy to break down um uh because lactose I forget what lactose is do you remember what lactose is Paul? Like what the it's a disaccharide right I don't remember what the two it's a disaccharide right lactose and I don't know what the two monosaccharides are because I don't spend it down into glucose something else but I don't remember the other ones yeah so in other words like the the that's typically not that much energy right so uh yeah if the constituent uh monosaccharides are still in there then I'm sure it it's all copasthetic for the uh for the bacteria. Okay. So safe to give small children.
+
+[27:58] Oh yeah yeah look if the pH drops, I would say it's safe to give because look, you were willing to you were willing to uh you know drink it prior, and uh you know the pH drop happens probably relatively quickly at those temperatures. Like how long is your incubation period before it starts getting tangy? Uh I I've I like it to let it run because I really like tangy, so I usually let it run 12 hours, so I don't know when it gets tangy. Yeah. Well, Paul, have you done that?
+
+[28:25] How fast did it start dropping the pH? I do 24 hours. Um eight hours. I mean, you'll you buy commercial yogurt machines and they have an eight-hour cycle and it comes out tangy. Right.
+
+[28:40] So there you have it. So like it's probably dropped. The pH is probably dropping low enough to start inhibiting some of these off things relatively early, like in the range of a couple of hours instead of in the range of like 24 hours. So I mean, I you know, the the thing is as a not a microbiologist, I can't like give you a specific recommendation, but I can say I would serve it to my kids. Okay.
+
+[29:04] Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. And let us, you know, if you have any experiments or whatever, shoot me a tweet over at Cooking Issues.
+
+[29:10] Let me know how it works out. Cool. Thank you. All right, cool, thank you. Uh Instapot.
+
+[29:14] Since my mom does not listen, I can't uh anyway. The people love in the Instapot. I got it. We had a caller, I think two weeks ago, who was uh gave me the very good tip that you can because the Instapot inserts are stainless steel, you can put them on a burner, and therefore you you can brown it even though they're woefully underpowered for browning. Woefully underpowered uh for browning.
+
+[29:36] Are you did uh did your sister buy an instapot nostasi? That uh oh, check this out. Uh I forgot to write down who it was, but one of uh the people on uh Instagram, I should have written down who it was. Sent me the like uh the greatest emoji of all time. It's the poop emoji and the plate with the fork emoji.
+
+[29:55] So what's what's that the emoji for? Poop eat. Dump meals. It's the greatest dual emoji ever. It's good.
+
+[30:04] Are you giving me the you're giving me the wan was just because you're a dump meal fan, Dave? I never said that. Uh I'm no Natty Lopez. Uh well, excuse you, you're the one that doesn't brown your meats before you throw them into your slow cooker. Slow cooking, but pressure cooking, we do brown the meat.
+
+[30:19] I always brown the meat. Always brown the meat. Oh, also I put a photo of us with the Christmas hat on my Instagram. Oh, nice. I'll uh I'll I don't know, I don't know how to do that, but I can try it later.
+
+[30:29] Yeah, Paul knows how to do that stuff. So anyway, so back on the uh so the the whole bird that I did for service for serving, I did very, very traditionally. So back to my I have my no oven policy, right? So I'm not gonna use the oven this way, everyone else can use the oven and I don't have to worry about it. So to get around this, I have an outdoor fryer, right?
+
+[30:47] I think everyone should have an outdoor fryer. Wiley uh Dufrein, my brother-in-law, he has the Cajun fryer, he actually really likes it a lot. And the nice thing about that fryer is that it has a lid that's meant to go over it, so you don't have to use some sort of aftermarket lid, and it's meant to get rain hitting it directly, whereas mine is not. So mine I have to cover and make sure that rain doesn't get on it because I just have a regular stainless commercial fryer that I have outside that I've converted to propane. Okay.
+
+[31:14] So a couple of tips. One, if you live in cold weather, and this is by the way, not just for Thanksgiving, this is any sort of outdoor cooking in cold weather. If you're gonna do outdoor cooking and cold weather with a piece of equipment like a walk burner, with a piece of equipment like a deep fryer that is propane, that can't be fired off of wood, right? So, you know, normally outside when it's cold, if I'm gonna grill, I grill with wood, and so, you know, you don't have to worry about it. But propane, uh, especially if you're using a small 20-pound tanks, if you actually almost ruined Thanksgiving with this once, if you use those and it's extremely cold, the cylinders can no longer supply high BTUs, right?
+
+[31:54] Because at those at those low temperatures outside, there's not enough vapor pressure to push enough propane through your lines and through the orifice that's in, you know, in the in the burners to get uh to get a good result. So years and years ago, like you know, 15, 16 years ago, uh, you know, my mom had a uh fryer and it was below freezing outside when I was uh cooking the turkey and it wouldn't light, and so I had to over drill the orifice. I had literally went into the garage and over-drilled the orifice so that I could get enough propane out of the tank to cook the turkey. The turkey tasted good, but some of the oil flew up, which is you know, your second tip. I didn't dry out the inside of the bird enough.
+
+[32:35] And the problem with what they sell as turkey fryers in the uh in the hor in the big vertical pot, those six gallon pots that they have, five, six gallon pots, is that when you lower the turkey in, if it's not dry, you have water on the inside forming like a tunnel, like almost like a cannon, and it can fire oil straight up, and oh which it did, and it got and it killed the grass in an area, and my stepfather, you know, was uh displeased with uh with that. Um so, anyways, so what's a solution to this? The solution is you go on uh Amazon or whatever. I mean, I hate Amazon. We could talk about them, but you know, they are they are our only source of income.
+
+[33:13] So I shouldn't say on the air that I hate them, but I loathe them with an intense passion. Sears all are back on Saturday. And spinzalls are on Amazon right now. Literally, like every nickel that Booker Indax makes really comes from Amazon.com and yet still a burning white passion of hatred, as Booker would say. Yeah, anyway, whatever.
+
+[33:40] So uh go on Amazon and get a pale warmer. Pale warmer. Make sure as in, not as in you know, I am pale, like a pail that will hold liquids. Uh get you know a 110 volt pale warmer with a thermostat on it, and you just wrap that around your propane tank and you're good to go. And you just don't turn it too high.
+
+[34:02] You know, turn it like basically on its lowest setting, and then it will just keep your propane tank at the right temperature. And this is how I know that no matter what the weather is like, if I want to deep fry, I can go outside and deep fry. So if you're gonna get an outdoor deep fryer, you live in cold weather climates, the first trick is to get uh one of those uh pale warmers. Um that's what we used when we were trying to also if let's say you're gonna run a puffing gun, let's say you're gonna run a puffing. So my deep fryer is 90,000 BTUs, just to give you an idea.
+
+[34:29] So I can suck it, even though it's below freezing outside, I can suck 90,000 BTUs out of pro uh uh worth of propane out of my pro 20 pound propane tank, no problem. Yeah, right. Let's say let's what'd say? Yeah, that's what you're talking about, right? So let's say you're let's say you have a puffing gun, right?
+
+[34:45] Puffing gun is more on the order of 200,000 BTUs. Now, how you can't ever suck 200,000 BTUs out of a out of a regular propane tank, uh 20-pound tank. It's not designed for it. You're supposed to pull it out of a hundred-pound tank. So uh what do you do?
+
+[35:00] And what happens when you s when you take off too much propane out of a tank uh at once, uh, it just cools off radically because you have evaporative cooling off uh off the surface of the pro liquid propane as it evaporates and it cools the whole tank down, and eventually you get down to a temperature where it doesn't deliver propane anymore. So any of you that have sat there and I don't know, uh turned on the Searsol and suddenly gotten tetanus and not been able to release the searsols for five minutes, you'll notice that the tank gets really cold and the searsol stops delivering propane. Uh you know, the tank stops delivering propane to the searsol. So when we're firing the puffing gun, no matter what the weather is outside, even in the summer, we have to use pale heaters to keep it going. Um anyways, so that's one tip.
+
+[35:42] Uh second tip is if you get a horizontal fryer, they are very good for turkey. So what I did there is I just uh I did a smaller turkey, so uh on the order of 15 pounds, uh salted it, very old school, salted it, didn't bother boning it or anything like that, and just air dried it in the you know, lifted off a rack. People make a mistake when they air dry, they worry about breast up, breast down. Just put it on two racks so that it's suspended well above the pan, right? Get the get the wings way the hell away from the the and the legs way the hell away from the animal so that it's like you know, it's basically like it's gonna give you a hug.
+
+[36:19] It's hugging you, saying, I'm dead, I'm dead, hug me. You know, like that. Like that's what you want it to look like, right? Why didn't you post any pictures of this? Because I was busy cooking, Nastasia.
+
+[36:29] That's the thing. Everyone's like photos. What? No one took photos. Um I was cooking by myself.
+
+[36:34] Sad. That's life. You know, you cook beforehand. Sad. My brother actually was out there helping me, but by the time it's it gets dark at 4:30 here, you know what I mean?
+
+[36:42] It's all wow. What time did you eat this year? I I ate exactly when they asked. Like, when do you want to eat? They want to eat at seven, so I ate at seven.
+
+[36:49] It's like, okay. Uh, but people don't believe you when you're doing this. I'm like, because they're like, the turkey is raw, and then when you're frying it the way I fry it, it's done 20 minutes later. So, like, you know, 40 minutes before dinner, the turkey is still raw, like drying out, and people are like, he's not gonna get this dinner done in time. And so they go start doing other stuff, and then meanwhile, I put the turkey on the table.
+
+[37:08] I'm like, it's freaking ready, right? Because the technique is you fry the turkey as I'm about to tell you to do next, and then you do the chicken fry after, right? So you're outside, you do your breading outside. And by the way, I hooked up my presser pressure washer. I I finally put hot and cold running water on the outside of my house.
+
+[37:24] I drilled a hole through my kitchen wall and installed uh like uh anti frost uh siphon-proof uh like regular like garden hose faucets through underneath the my kitchen sink, tapped into the lines there, and have hot and cold running water outside that you just attach with a hose to like this IKEA, this like you know, really cheap IKEA kitchen outside. So I did all my breading outside and then afterwards the next day, because I didn't want to clean it, right? But it's not in your house, so who cares? So I left it out there and I took my pressure washer out there, I hooked it up to the hot water, not too hot, people. Oh, not too hot or that happens.
+
+[37:58] And and then uh I just pressure washed everything. It was so liberating to just pressure wash all of the sheet trays with all of that freaking fry goop all over them. Anyways, so uh so yeah, the whole the whole thing is done in like, you know, 30 minutes. So while the turkey, while the whole turkey rests, you have already low temped all of the meat for the um for the ones that are turkey fried and they're small anyway, so they don't take a long time to heat through. So you just double basket back, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and just uh pull it all in, and all of a sudden you go from zero to three turkeys, like, and as far as the other people think it's magic.
+
+[38:32] They're like, boom, it's all there. You know what I mean? Anyways, so uh the nice thing about horizontal frying is that you can put the legs in, right? So you can you can put the backside down in and tip it up so that you have the legs more in the fry oil than you have the breast, and you can just let it rock there, and it's easy to manipulate because you can shove spoons and tongs into what would have been the butt of the turkey, you know what I mean, and flip it around without doing too much damage. It's easy, and if you need to, you can almost pinion from two sides and flip it so you're not like tonging up the skin, and you can manipulate the turkey a couple of times to make sure that it is uh you know that it's good.
+
+[39:12] And because you manipulate it a couple of times, you can make sure the skin gets crispy uh everywhere, and you can make sure it browns everywhere, but you can also take, you know, I don't use thermometers when I'm cooking this kind of stuff. Uh I just use a cake tester, right? Because that's the way I was trained to do it. So you get a cake tester, and you just go you shove the cake tester into the thickest part, you sit there, you sit there, you sit there, you sit there, you sit there. Okay, now you pull it out and you put it against your lip.
+
+[39:38] If you do it too fast, there's no way to know. You have to let the cake tester equilibrate with the meat that's there. Then you pull it out and touch it right under your under your, you know, I'm pointing what am I what is this, Paul? That's your lower lip, Dave. Yeah, point, yeah, you touch it there, and if it's warm, if it's warm enough, then you're like, oh, now you touch it, Paul.
+
+[39:57] You people, you're the worst. Anyway, what if you don't have a cake tester? You only have a probe thermometer. Go buy a cake tester and throw your probe thermometer away. No, probe thermometers are great.
+
+[40:05] I love them, but really, why don't you have cake testers? What don't we think about that while we take a quick break? All right, take a break, come right back with more with cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products.
+
+[40:39] So, you know, before Bob's red mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's Redmill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. Paul, do you like dreadlocks? Where did that come from?
+
+[41:13] What's to like or not like? It's someone's hair. Who cares? Do you like it, Dave? What do you mean, like?
+
+[41:17] Like it has no meaning to me. Do what I have dreadlocks? No. My hair is too straight. I cannot grow dreadlocks.
+
+[41:24] Why? They're dirty. What that is wrong. What do you mean they're dirty? You can't wash your hair.
+
+[41:28] That's incorrect. You can wash your hair with dreadlocks. Yes. Yes. With what?
+
+[41:33] Shampoo. What? Will someone please like write in on the chat board and school Nastasia on how dreadlocks work? Um anyway. So uh let's answer some questions that were written in.
+
+[41:45] They are named dreadlocks because they invoke fear in the non-wearer. Well, back in the day. So they're working. Okay. Uh hey, Dave Nastasia, uh, Dave in the booth, and hopefully everyone's favorite punching bag, uh, Peter Kim.
+
+[42:04] Well, the part of Peter Kim now is being played by Paul. I just can't do it. Can't can't be punched. No. Uncun.
+
+[42:12] That was a good Peter Kim impression, though. Uh yeah, big big fan of the show. Uh, I got into you guys a few years back and downloaded the entire back catalog and listened to it during a 19-day volunteer mission helping rural rural cacao farmers in Madagascar. Wow. So you like I I can't believe we've been listened to on the island of Madagascar.
+
+[42:30] It's one of the places I really want to visit. Yeah. You two, you've you been there, Paul? I haven't been. Sounds like the vanilla and the lemurs.
+
+[42:37] Both? Yeah. I want to go for the vanilla. So wrong. So wrong.
+
+[42:44] Uh yeah. You would wash dreadlocks like you would a sponge. Just put it in. And you know how I wash sponges? With soap.
+
+[42:52] Oh my god. Um, uh I'm a cook for the uh now Amazon owned supermarket that everyone loves to hate. That would be Whole Foods. Um we had a special request for a goose this weekend that is to be cooked, chilled, and given to a customer to be customer to be reheated at home. While I've cooked plenty of poultry in my career, I've only roasted one goose and found it to be relatively tough and dry.
+
+[43:18] I'm contemplating brining it and also using the Chinese prick skin and plunge in boiling water to render fat before roasting it. Uh although I have a circulator at home, uh, I don't have one at work. I do have convection ovens, steamers, and auto sham, and deep fryers at my disposal. Nice. Uh if there is so Whole Foods has deep fryers, huh?
+
+[43:37] Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Uh if uh there's a can't miss method involving brining uh bringing my circulator from home, I'm willing to do so. But keep in mind I don't have a chamber sealer, only food saver or zippies.
+
+[43:48] Uh I'm working day shift tomorrow, so I can't call in, but would love to get any advice you can share to help me provide my guests with a quality product, including suggestions on techniques for reheat with common appliances that the guests would have at their disposable. Just disposable. Disposal. Thanks in advance, Jonathan. Here's what you do, you just shove it in the disposal.
+
+[44:07] So I also have only cooked uh goose a couple of times, and it's been probably 20 years since I've cooked a goose, and I was not super jacked about it uh at the time. It seemed like a uh it seemed like kind of a fattier, less meaty, more pain in the butt duck to me. Like it was kind of like duck minus. Uh, but that was a long time ago. I think goose deserves more.
+
+[44:34] I've had delicious confit goose, uh not that I've cooked, but that other people have cooked for me. Uh, but I've not had a roasted like Christmas style goose in in well, I say I haven't cooked one in 20 years, but I don't think I've had one in probably 15 years. Nils, so Nils Norrin is being Swedish, like you know, cooking goose for him is like you know, waking up in the morning. Uh but you know, Paul, are you a goose cooker? No, I've never cooked a goose.
+
+[45:03] I've had extremely good roast goose at the home of uh Chinese American family, and I've had really good smoked goose breast. Yeah. So the problem with goo the the and I think the reason that goose is difficult is that it's it's difficult in well, the other reason I don't cook it uh is it's a lot more expensive than duck, and so if I'm gonna have a better if if the duck is gonna do me more proud than the goose, then why would I pay more for something I like less? It's been my mentality, but I think my mentality is wrong, and I need to revisit it because obviously, if goose was the festive bird for you know uh hundreds of years in places like you know England, then it's gotta be it's gotta have merit, right? The roast goose I had was more flavorful than an average roast duck.
+
+[45:50] Yeah. The meat had more interesting flavor. Yeah. Okay. But Nastasi, you have any goose.
+
+[45:57] I've had one a couple of years ago. And what do you think of it? I don't remember it that well. Does that mean you didn't like it? Probably.
+
+[46:04] Okay. So uh anyway, so it has the same sort of problems as duck, but more so. Uh and so I did some I did some research, and the problem is the kind of whole roasting of it, uh, you're not gonna get you're not gonna get the legs and the breast to be in a position uh the way uh that you would want it if you're the kind of person who likes a medium rare breast and a soft leg. It just won't happen. Like the either you'll have the breast meat the way you want it, or you'll have the leg meat the way you want it, but you're not gonna get both uh at the same time using uh normal techniques.
+
+[46:44] So I looked up like some ways that people get around the the toughness. One, uh hunters, and this will also solve some of your skin rendering problems. So you mentioned the Chinese technique of uh pricking it, but there are hunters out there who do full jackard, so they're jackarding the meat uh prior. Now that sh unfortunately will shred the skin, which I don't think is what what you want, but it's interesting that people are using some people like joke that they'll run over the goose with uh with their with their four by fours, hunters. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:12] Will run over the goose with their four by fours as a tenderizing. So you might um you might help make the leg meat less problematic by the good old-fashioned technique of beating the ever-loving snot out of it. Uh brining also helps. Hank Shaw, who has, you know, a bunch of stuff on cooking uh hunted uh meats, his favorite technique, which is not necessarily going to be uh what you want, he and it's his favorite bird, right, is he uh will brine that brine the heck out of it for a long time, right, to kind of uh protect it. By the way, uh okay, and then he will roast it, and then uh okay, so if you're f you're familiar with pressed duck, right, Paul?
+
+[47:49] Right. So in in in a pressed duck situation, you you par I don't know even why I brought it up because it's a different technique, but you you partially roast the bird, pull it off, slice off the breasts, and then you re- you can roast the rest of it to what you want. So that's what he does. He roasts he roasts the birds uh at a regular thing, you know, renders out the the fat on the skin area, which you could probably accelerate by pricking it and doing the hot water like pecking duck style stuff, right? You could do all of that, inflate it, all that stuff will work.
+
+[48:17] Uh but then he slices the breast off when the breast is done and then throws the uh keeps it warm and then throws the rest of the meat back in on the carcass until the legs are the way you want, then pulls it out, then puts the stuff back. So if your customer is willing to not have a hundred percent presentation mode, you can cook it, slice that stuff off, then relayer it back on. But even if you meet meat glue it back on, which the meat glue will hold, by the way, like if you are chilling it and then like once it gets down to you know uh it's just getting cool enough, you layer the breast back on top, it'll it will re-glue, but you're never gonna get it looking like a uh goose that hasn't been uh cut into. You'll just is not gonna happen. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:01] But I don'll have that glued goose look. Yes, but if you do do that, if you have that glued uh goose look, as Paul says, um, then that stuff's pretty easy to re-therm, just make sure that the cavity is completely empty and throw it in hot, a very hot oven, and just let it, you know, warm through like this, and you won't get much overcooking on it because you've already cooked it all up. So just let it, you know, come up to room temp uh you know for a little while, throw it in a super hot oven, and boom, you should be able to re-therm it no problem. And it'll recrisp the skin, but it's never gonna look like you know, like it would otherwise. Now we gotta bring this bird in for a landing, Dave.
+
+[49:37] No, all right. Well I was gonna say like if you want to get super complicated, you could you could inside out rip out the legs and and meet and then comfy them without their skin and then chill them, stuff them back into the raw skin, then roast the whole bird off focusing on just the breast and getting the skin crisped up like almost treated as a raw bird with the legs back in. And then you'd have comfy goose leg and bread, but that's a huge pain in the butt to go through for uh a customer who you can't even trust is going to be you know a friend of quality and not ruin it on the on the uh pickup. You know what I mean Nastasia? Yes.
+
+[50:19] Yes. It doesn't even require circulator, right? Because you you're doing basically traditional techniques. One last thing because uh Dave's gonna kick me off the uh off the air here um remember that I I don't know this for a fact but my guess is is that long time low temperature cooking on a uh goosebreast is gonna do a very similar thing that it does that it does to a duck breast which is it makes the texture mushy slash grainy and can create liver flavors in it, uh, which is dependent. So some duck breasts will get livery and some duck breasts won't uh on on long cooking.
+
+[50:55] But this is why typically when I'm doing low temperature on duck breasts, I like to keep the cook time down to about an hour or less. Uh and so uh at roughly 57 is what I typically do a duck breast at chill it and then do the the panning of the skin to crisp it up. So my guess is that goose meat will probably have similar, if not worse, problems with going A, livery, and B getting real texture loss on very long temperature uh cooks. So just bear that in mind if you're gonna do long-term low temperature. Either next week or the week after, Johnny Hunter from Underground Meats is going to come in.
+
+[51:27] So please send uh your cured meat questions our way, and we'll try to tweet out beforehand whether it's going to be next week or the week after, but definitely before uh the new year, Johnny Hunter from uh Wisconsin from Mad Town is gonna come on and we'll we'll do a uh uh cured meats question. We got uh Paul here who's pushing his new kitten. If you if you want to eat his new kitten, uh, you know, go to his uh website, which is I don't have a website. Well, what is it? Where are they gonna go?
+
+[51:53] Puma. Salad Puma. Twitter.com slash salad puma. Salad Puma. So I don't really keep updated, but I will post a kitten photo.
+
+[52:00] Now there you go. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[52:22] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[52:49] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:27] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? I'm sick. Still?
+
+[0:56] Yeah. But you don't allow yourself to be sick. I know. I think it's getting me back for all those years. I mean, Nastasia, you don't allow yourself to be sick.
+
+[1:04] You know what? You know what we say in my family? This means you don't have enough to do. Ooh. That's not true.
+
+[1:09] Yeah, it's like only you got time to clean. Yeah, if you got time to be sick, you got time to, you know, I don't know, think about being sick. You have you have time to think about your body. That's the first mistake. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:20] It's like you remember in school, you'd be like, chick, chick, chuk chick, and then the exams are over, and you're like, I'm gonna enjoy the show. You know what I mean? Because as soon as you no longer have a boat ton of work to do, you fade. You know what I mean? As soon as you retire and you don't do anything, you're gone.
+
+[1:38] You know what I mean? Can we talk about Sears all real quick? Yeah, but to paraphrase Dave, the other Dave. If you have time to lean, you're gonna die. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[1:49] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right, let's talk about Searsols.
+
+[1:53] We don't know what's going on. They're off, they're on, they're off, they're on. I get people tweeting me saying, Oh, I bought one, and then it's in five seconds later it disappears. It's like some sort of magic mirrors game. It's it's my favorite will they won't they storyline right now.
+
+[2:05] Yeah? Like your soap opera that you watch? Yeah, this is my soap opera. Oh, nice. Well, uh interestingly, um just bought one and it's shipped to them, and they and sp like Amazon still said, Amazon still said buy the tall yeah, oh, and Amazon is actually calling Nastasia, I mean calling Nastasia right now.
+
+[2:28] Normally she doesn't take calls. Normally she just text people incessantly during the show, but she's actually taking a call from Amazon. She also has the loudest coat of anybody on the network. Really? Yeah, definitely.
+
+[2:38] That's a good that's a good uh She does a lot of switching in there. Yeah. So anyway, so Amazon um recommends you buy these the that that's tall skinny tanks uh for your Searsol, which is of course a freaking nightmare. Uh and you know, people then think that I have recommended it, and then uh I get very bent like a pretzel. Anyway, uh long story short, they have a zillion of them.
+
+[3:01] I think they're fulfilling all the back orders, and then we'll figure out what's going on from there. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Next week, we have with us, I'm pretty sure next week. Dave, is that true?
+
+[3:15] Do you know? Finish the sentence. I don't know. Oh, you mean are we doing a show next week? No, next week we have Johnny Hunter from uh from Underground, you know, collective in uh Madison, Wisconsin coming on.
+
+[3:24] We're gonna do our cooking issues, meet spectacular. It's gonna be a meat tacular event where we just so over the next week, send in all of your meat-related, all of your meat-related questions. Oh, not just meat, like cured meat, really. Curing meats, smoking meats, smoking cured meats. Also, uh, I happen to know that Johnny puts almost just as a matter of course, puts almost everything in the kitchen through his large uh um meat grinder just to see what'll happen.
+
+[3:57] Like masa through the meat grinder. I'm sure, you know, I'm sure he's fed all sorts of like weird things through his meat grinder. So if you have any questions on, you know, what what can I do with my meat grinder? Uh calling for that. Was that Amazon stuff?
+
+[4:11] No, it was not. It was my apartment. Why would Seattle call it? No, it wasn't Seattle, it was an 800. They were calling from an 800 thing.
+
+[4:19] So you have no word other than the fact that they're fulfilling back orders, and every once in a while the computer allows them to sell 12 and then they go back. I guess, but I don't know how they're doing it there. Yeah. They know that we're very angry. Yeah, uh, tell them the uh tell them the I think it's called their reply email to me is like angry angry customer at Amazon.com.
+
+[4:41] Like, but it but within a bunch of numbers, so they think I can't see it. No, like the reply, the instant reply to me is uh Oh, it's like the subject. Yeah, yeah, angry, yeah, angry scan, angry scan 29101. That's a good that's a red flag. So uh Dave, you think that's more of a band, more of a song, angry scan?
+
+[5:01] Angry scan. But don't you think that they think that they know that their customers can see that? And they're like, Yeah, it sounds like one of those internal things, like remember, as we as we said, like the minute you hang up a phone with any human being at Amazon, that person has quit. Yeah, and a new person is taking their no, but don't you think it's not it's like when you put on somebody's check at a restaurant, like you describe the person instead of like the table number. Oh, instead of the table number, you're like butt head on the right.
+
+[5:27] Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's basically what they're doing to me. Yeah, yeah. But again, they they don't care.
+
+[5:32] Like the employees there, it's like Pez dispensers. It's like as soon as you open one, it's eaten and chewed up and spat out. Or whatever. You ever been to the Pez Museum? I never never been to the Pez museum.
+
+[5:41] No, I've asked you to stop every time we pass it. What? This is a lie. No, every time we have gone up to Harvard or gone to your house, I'm like, ooh, Pez Museum. And you were like, mmm.
+
+[5:52] So you know what it is, right? You go there, you stare at a bunch of Pez dispensers, but then for your whatever 10 bucks entrance fee, you fill up a sack with Pez. Just like a sack of Pez. Cool. Do you like Pez?
+
+[6:04] They're okay. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm just Yeah. I mean, like, I I used to sit there, load them very carefully. That last freaking Pez never fits into the Spencer.
+
+[6:16] Yeah. And then I was just like quick draw McGraw like brrrrrr like shooting those things into my mouth as fast as humanly possible. You know what I mean? See, I like to bite through a whole stack of them and just see if I could do a clean bite all the way down through. Really?
+
+[6:28] Yeah. Like like a like a kung fu, like brick smashing type of thing. So yours never even made it into the into the dispenser. No, once in a while, but you know. Did you save the dispensers or were you like, what the hell is this?
+
+[6:40] Don't you think that person's a billionaire? Who? The pe the original. The Pez ventor? Yeah.
+
+[6:45] I doubt it. Right. I mean, I don't know. Nobody else makes them. Nobody else makes it because Randolph Pez.
+
+[6:51] I mean, the thing is like how many, like, you know, the patents only last, as you know, for like you know, a very finite amount of time, and Pez has been around a good long. I think, you know, the thing is. That's something you would make. People are like, people are like, you wanna out Pez Pez? No.
+
+[7:05] You know what I mean? Like a Mistas and I I got a business idea. We're gonna make alternative Pez. We're gonna take on the tops manufacturing corporation for baseball cards. You're probably like the guy who created the Pez dispenser.
+
+[7:13] There's something useless that nobody wants. So uh speaking of useless ID. Well, speaking of useless uh IES, uh those of you who have purchased spinzalls with our holiday promotion need to set your email crap to we can contact you. Otherwise we can't send you the freaking thing. Like half the people that bought it Well, the thing is we can send it to the address that their spinzall is being sent to.
+
+[7:47] We're just confirming that that's correct because that's what we're doing. But they won't they can't they don't even see it? But we it will go to that address that you that the spinzel's being sent to. We're just being nice and confirming that that's where you want your enzymes. Yeah.
+
+[8:00] Like maybe you bought one for somebody else, but you want to keep the enzymes. Whatever. Uh so it looks like I didn't know this because Nastasi just handed it to me because even though it was sent to me, it sent it to her house. We do not live anywhere near each other, people. We have if we did it, it would be like these weird bunk beds or something.
+
+[8:16] Like th like well, and that infinitely thick would just be like stacks and stacks of stuff like I like like we try to avoid each other basically as much as humanly possible. Although this year we are gonna have a holiday party. Really? I mean, i.e. we're gonna sit down and have a drink.
+
+[8:29] Rainbow, yeah. Yeah, anyway. Uh James Peterson wrote many years ago, I guess in the eighties, one of my favorite all time cookbooks, uh, his book on sauces, which, you know, at the time won all the awards, and apparently they just and it's one of those books that everybody loves that's read it. And apparently they just came out with a fourth edition. It is much physically larger than the old one.
+
+[8:50] It's like a large book. Like Nastasia was considering not giving it to me so that she could use it to separate the hot side from the cold side instead of my book is the right thickness. It's the right thickness. This one's too heavy. It looks like there's a lot more information.
+
+[9:02] The interesting thing about Peterson's uh sauce book from the 80s was at the time the uh kind of the the the shtick that everyone was doing was um for liaison for sauce, they were just boiling straight cream down into like super thick cream. So he had a boat ton of reduced cream sauces in his last book, and I'm curious whether or not since I don't really see that as much anymore. Do you saw it's like super reduced cream sauces? No. No.
+
+[9:27] Uh yeah, so anyway, so uh I'm interested to see how that book has changed, but it's one of my all-time favorite books, so let's see what happened. Also, I was like, Nastasia before the show is like, hey, can we talk about you know how you make pasta, the pasta flour? She's like, no. I signed a contract. Well, it's like you have frozen, that's it.
+
+[9:46] Yeah, but you don't want in other words, like I think people would be interested. I mean, the shtick with the pasta is is that uh texture of the pasta is supposed to be similar to the way Mark used to cook it at Del Posto. Yeah. Like, you know, not mushy, not over, but done very quickly without skill, right? Right.
+
+[10:04] And so, like, you know, I was like, hey, that might be useful for like, you know, Jane and Joe person who wants to make a bunch of stuff in advance and then like take maybe pasta to work with them and then do like a quick finish at work in in the nuke or whatever. And I was like, let you know, maybe we could discuss how you might go about doing this. And Nastasi goes, I am contractually obliged to not discuss this in public. That's true. So she could tell you how to do it.
+
+[10:31] I could tell you how to do it. But I would then But she won't. I can't. I just give it to it. She could.
+
+[10:36] I I could, but I can't. I am contractually obliged to not. And she won't. And I won't. And she won't.
+
+[10:42] You know, she'll blab about any other thing. If you have any sort of secret and you want the entire world to know it, better than using Instagram or I know stuff you don't know that I wish I could tell you about that. Oh wow. Now, oh look at me. Tell me.
+
+[10:55] Nastasia, you forget, I grew up with a shrink. I'm used to not being able to like I'm used to like, you know, someone coming home at the end of the night and being like, wow, what a crazy day. You would not believe what happened. What happened? I can't tell you.
+
+[11:09] You know what I mean? I'm used to this. This is like my whole life. It doesn't bother me. Yeah, no, but I wish I could tell you because I know you would get a kick out of some of these things, but I can't.
+
+[11:17] Yeah. Because you would be the right person to tell. Yeah. Alright. Okay.
+
+[11:23] So talked about Johnny Hunter while you thought you were talking about Amazon. Uh we did a spins all update. They're in stock and will continue to be in stock. Sears all, we're trying, we're working real hard. Uh Nastasia's got her angry.
+
+[11:34] What is angry scan? I think the thing that makes me most mad is that in the beginning when we first started selling Sears Alls, certain people were like, this is a useless tool. Nobody will want it. Certain people you mean uh we can't. We're contractually obliged to not say who that was.
+
+[11:50] But uh now, you know, that's what makes me most angry. Yeah, you know, I want to yeah, anyway. Uh anywho, uh moving on. Um let's get to uh let's get to some questions here. Um let me see.
+
+[12:04] For some reason my phone decided, you know what I'm gonna do, I think in the new year, my new year's resolution? I'm gonna print the questions out on paper so I don't have to fudge around with the phone. I'm becoming more of a Luddite as I get older. You know what I mean? What about you?
+
+[12:16] You becoming more of a Luddite? No, I'm trying to be more technology forward. Yeah? Yeah, you you look like it. The Christmas hat's very technology forward.
+
+[12:25] Yeah. Um anyway, okay. Kevin McHugh writes in. Hello, cooking issues team. What would you recommend as a gift for the cocktail nerds in my life?
+
+[12:34] They have extensive liquor cabinets and all the traditional tools. I was thinking about a collection of different acids, or perhaps pectanex. Uh this is for a relatively small budget, just a token, small token between friends. I'd be interested to hear uh what to get on a larger budget, though. Thank you, Kevin McHugh.
+
+[12:51] That's a good question. So um, I mean, look, it all depends on on you. Like uh I should never have a ballpoint pen in my hand during these because I I have the nervous I'm a nervous clicker. Um it all depends on kind of a your friends, so like a lot of bartenders I know are very hyper obsessed with like the shiniest or like the coolest looking or how things look. As for me, I don't care about that so much, right?
+
+[13:20] So I'm more I'm much more of a function guy. So from a functional standpoint, if they don't already have the Don Lee design cocktail, uh cocktail kingdom strainer, the one with the really fine wire, I would go ahead and get that. Uh that way you're not gonna get ice shards, uh they're not gonna get ice shards in their drink, and they're not gonna have to double strain. If you double strain, you'll kill the foam, especially if you're doing anything that like you know needs a lot of foam. So I highly recommend that.
+
+[13:47] It's basically the only um it's the only one I use. Uh the other, you know, you could if you want to, you know, it doesn't actually really we don't even actually make any money off of it, but if but the cocktail cube uh, you know, uh would help them texturize uh their drinks better when they're shaking. I would also say that you know, if they don't already have large ice molds, those are also nice. These are all things for for shaking. I never use those cubes for stirred drinks, although I guess you could, they're just but they're like what I mean I'm so used to clear ice that like when someone hands me the like a cloudy ice cube I'm just like no what do you care about that stuff size?
+
+[14:23] No. You don't already order that kind of drink though. No. You never order like a drink on a rock right no I'm only gonna order champagne at your bar. You're not you're such a bad person.
+
+[14:32] You're just like a low quality individual all the way around. It's just like you're just like you're just like a rotten, rotten friend. It's like you know what I mean? Like you're that person that like everyone's like do you have a friend who's just like rotten to you all the time and like yeah yeah I got that. You know what?
+
+[14:46] Because my my life isn't already stressful enough. You know what I mean? Anyways uh that's great. So uh I would get uh you know something like that. Obviously if you have a boat ton of money what should they buy Anastasia?
+
+[14:58] Tens all. There you go. Uh see what else uh the cocktail but if you want to get an acid kit I think that's a really good uh idea. The issue is is that obviously you're gonna need to give them some recipes. So the the main acids that you know are used in the bar are very very foremost obviously citric and malic those are the two most important by far and then uh after that tartaric and lactic and then after that phosphoric a lot of people if you're buying phosphoric you might want to buy uh you know um Darcy O'Neill's uh Foss whatever it's called Foss called something foss something phos tart or something like that um that's you know his kind of buffered one phosphoric acid is rather difficult to work with because a little bit too much goes a long way it's unique in that it is inorganic and therefore um it has a it doesn't taste like a fruit acid.
+
+[15:49] It has a very particular taste. And Nastasia does not enjoy it in anything other than cola. Is that correct? You never any bartender serves you with phosphoric acid drank you're like remember when you made that cola with um uh that digestive at Mario's bar and then you put ice in it and I didn't like it. Because it was too watery or what?
+
+[16:12] No, it was a carbonated drink that you put ice into. Oh, because I put ice into it, but I put into it because I thought the Mario crew would like it more, and you're like, Why have you sold your soul? This is actually completely unrelated to this. You just want me to feel bad. You're like, you just want me to feel like a bad person.
+
+[16:27] Anyway, uh so you're like, Dave, you hate ice in carbonated drinks like this, so why do you serve it this way? Yeah, but completely unrelated to the topic of this person buying acids for their friend. I mean, not even related, like not even similar. I mean, like they both involve beverages. What we were doing was carbonating, like I forget what it was.
+
+[16:47] We're carbonating an Amaro. Yeah, we're I forget which amaro it was, and it had a very distinct cola-like flavor on its own with a little bit of acid in it. Maybe that's what you thought of a little bit of acid, and I put it over ice, and Nastasi's like, I hate it. And then and then like I poured on one without the ice, and she's like, good. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:08] Like, yeah, but that's actually what she was like. Adequate. Doesn't suck. It's like my grandpa, my my uh well, I guess they're both dead now, but like, you know, like whenever you asked him how you know how he was doing. Vertical, i.e., like not dead yet.
+
+[17:22] Of course, not true anymore. Or like the other thing he would say, which was a lot of times not because how are you doing soberly? Like he always say, you know? He you always had one word or you know, maximum two word answers for anything. Grandpa, why don't you like chicken?
+
+[17:40] It's foul. You know what I mean? Grandpa, why don't you like mushrooms? Toadstools. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:47] Like that's like all he would ever do. You know what I mean? So yeah, yeah, he was a joy. Uh a joy. So wait, so what were you talking about before that?
+
+[17:56] We're talking oh, cocktail acids. So the thing with um phosphoric is I find it difficult to use. Um if you are using malic and citric, uh, that's a very nice thing to get somebody. I would just give them the recipes. Um I would give them a recipe for acid-adjusted orange juice, which is of course 32 grams of um uh 32 grams of citric and 20 grams of malic acid per uh per liter of OJ.
+
+[18:23] Uh you can include some others like how to adjust grapefruit or how to adjust um pineapple's actually uh you know, I suggest pineapple's good. So you can give those kinds of things. Um the tartaric and lactic you can use to make uh the champagne acid, which is in liquid intelligence, which you can find on Amazon's look inside if you don't want to buy the book. Um so those are good to have. Uh what other adjuncts are good to have?
+
+[18:46] Like eyedroppers for salt solutions, I think are useful for people to have. I don't know, what do you think, Stuff? You're like you're like, don't care. Don't care. Uh I don't care.
+
+[18:54] But I think these are good things for people to have. And I would much rather have something like that than um hyper fancy spoon, although I like a hyper fancy spoon. The other thing that some people don't have uh is bar mat. And you want to get a decent bar mat because the bad bar mats, they stink forever. Like I don't know what molds they put it in.
+
+[19:12] Remember, like when we buy new bar mats, the entire place would smell like new bar mat, which is gross. But bar mats, if pe if the if people don't already have a bar mat, you must have a bar mat. They're awesome. Also, if they have some sort of crappy little lightweight muddler, get them the badass muddler from uh from cocktail kingdom anyway these are good suggestions right remember that event that we worked when they said you they wanted you to make random cocktails in addition to the ones that you were make that you had made customers or the people wanted me to it was at a private residence oh and they're like what they're like they said can you just make whatever somebody asks uh because we have a whole liquor cabinet and you said if Jesus came what did I say if Jesus came down and asked me to baby bird feed him any cocktail that he wanted I would tell him to go F himself what? Yeah I like the idea that baby Jesus is drinking cocktails.
+
+[20:10] And you're a baby bird feeding him I must have been angry. I don't know I don't know it's a good Davism right Dave I don't know I have I have no recollection of saying that I'm not denying that I said that I just have no recollection of it. Speaking of low quality individuals by the way uh I noticed that I was passing by on the way over here uh taco bell has a rolled chicken taco now and hello that doesn't exist rolled tacos don't exist people they have a different name why would they no no they're like they're like little taquitos enchelado no they're like little fried like taquitos or like you know I was like man you you guys suck rolled taco like they get to think that they invented it you know what I mean like they own that no um okay, uh let me see here. I this is from Julian. I don't know whether I answer this, but I have more to say if I did.
+
+[21:05] Uh Julian writes in, I live in a small apartment w without a stove hood, uh, but love the flavor of grilling. Are there any ways to grill indoors that aren't completely insane or ways to otherwise replicate those flavors? I miss grilled steaks, broccoli, asparagus, etc. Might have uh answered this already, but I have different answers now. Uh I own and love a Sears all, but it doesn't get me the same big charge, slightly bitter flavors that a hot grill can.
+
+[21:26] Any tips here? Thanks, Julian. Okay, look. Here's the thing. Like, uh there's what I can reasonably recommend that you do, and there's like the crap that I used to do back when I was young, right?
+
+[21:41] I mean, I used to do really, really uh dumb things. Let me give me an example. Part of the problem with hoods, or anything in general, when you're trying to evacuate, and the reason why evacuate fumes, not your not your family, is that let's say you open a wooden uh window and you put a uh a fan in the window, right? So that fan is way far away from where you're where you're cooking, and what happens is uh, you know, it the you're taking air from the whole room, and the smoke that you're making is kind of spilling out in all directions. And unless all of that air goes in through the fan, you're pretty much hosed.
+
+[22:19] And the further you are away from the fan, and the more volume that that fan, because the fan has a certain amount of uh, you know, at whatever you know, pressure it's working at a certain number of cubic feet per minute that it can suck through, right? Uh and so if you're calculating, for instance, in a paint hood, uh, you know, under in a paint booth, you calculate how fast the air needs to get evacuated to suck out all the stuff, and so you look at the area of your hood uh times the um the cu you know the cubic feet per per minute, and you can figure out the linear feet kind of at the top to figure out whether you're in good shape. But hoods don't really work this way, and they don't really no one really calculates uh how many CFM you need um if you're going to do something unreasonable which is what I used to do so when I had my first fryer right uh I you know fryer I there are roughly 90,000 BTUs so a lot uh and they make not just a lot of heat they make a lot of oil uh a lot of oil uh stuff coming out of them as anyone that's ever fried in their house without a hood knows um so uh what I did was is don't do this by the way this is insane it's completely insane I went to Home Depot and I bought the two cheapest cheapest as Patrick would say the cheapest meat I bought the cheapest uh range hoods I could get right two of them brone B R O A N the equivalent to the current model uh 4200 which is 30 inches wide uh and you know takes a seven inch uh round ducted pipe coming out of it and I just zip screwed them together back to back so I just took two range hoods and bolted them back to back so I had a roughly 30 by 30 inch or 30 by 36 inch or something like this square of hood. I then just took those two pipes coming out and put them directly out the window just like took hard pipes boom boom two seven inch uh you know solid pipes and put them right out the window uh and bang that was it and uh that sucker uh completely evacuated all of the fumes from that fryer in addition it melted all of the internal components over the years that I did it of the of the hood was probably completely dangerous by the way the one of the problems with these hoods is that you can get uh deposits on the inside of the hoods, and then those can catch on fire and cause kind of big problems. Uh so I can't recommend it, it's completely unsafe.
+
+[24:42] But you could make one of these little uh you could take two of these hoods, bolt them together, and put a pipe that fits out the window, slide the window down, roll it up to it, and just boom shoot this stuff out your window, uh, and then put it in your closet when you're not going to use it, but you would be risking fire. The other problem is is if uh you're gonna pipe smoke directly out your window, like charcoal grilling smoke directly out your window, you have to worry that your neighbors might call the fire department on you. This has only happened to me a couple of times, but it's extremely unpleasant to have the fire department come up because obviously you're not supposed to have an open fire in your uh house. Um but I have to say uh that if it worked well for a fryer, it would probably work very well also for a grill. Now, the issue here is that if you have open flames coming out of your grill, you will instantly melt uh all the undersides of your of your hood, and you'll be in oh, I I also I didn't tell you.
+
+[25:42] I put the hood much closer to the fryer than is advisable. I hung it, I hung it basically as low as I could, um, so that it, you know, that there would be no uh spillover. But the lower you hang it, the more uh heat you have, and the real issue you're gonna have there is fire licking up on the sides of your of your thing. Now, if you built an extremely small fire, put a baffle over it, use like a small hibachi, and you did it, but then you're not uh rip roaring. I'm talking about what you would do if you were a completely unreasonable person.
+
+[26:10] Now I don't recommend any of you go do this because you might just the fact that I am have not killed myself does not mean you will not kill yourself. You know, my son makes this mistake all the time. Dax makes the mistake of thinking that just because he hasn't hurt himself in the past that he won't hurt himself in the future. Uh the older you get, the more you realize that's just not the case. What?
+
+[26:34] Wisdom. Wisdom. Wisdom. The problem is that they don't believe you. They're like, you did all that stupid stuff and you didn't die.
+
+[26:40] You're like, yes, but what I'm trying to tell you is that I was lucky, but they're like, well, I'll be lucky. You know what I mean? People don't learn. People, you can't, this is you can't get your kids or anyone else to learn from your mistakes. You just can't do it.
+
+[26:53] Isn't that frustrating? Mm-hmm. Anyway. Um super frustrating. You want to take a break?
+
+[27:00] Uh yeah, that's a good idea, actually. Alright, we'll take a break, come back with Kugnish. Bob's red mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The bran, or the rough edge, makes up about 14% of the whole grain.
+
+[27:31] It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed, what's gonna grow into a plant. It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life.
+
+[27:55] The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the bran and just have the white endosperm left.
+
+[28:14] It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill with whole grains, you also get the bran, which is the kind of rough edge and gives the that's what gives that that kind of color to it. Also gives you extra fiber that uh helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains.
+
+[28:41] Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com/slash podcast. Learn more. How long is that? How long is that break, Dave? Nastasi and I are sticking chopsticks through our ears to pop rupture our eardrums so that we can make it through.
+
+[28:56] How long is that? That was a minute and a half. Jeez. It's not unusual. Oh my god.
+
+[29:01] So boring. Hey, here's here's maybe it's uh, you know, the the messenger. Oh you wrote the message for him. I didn't I didn't personally write that. Yeah, all right.
+
+[29:14] So, hey, true fact, I actually do like wheat germ. Do you like wheat germ stuff? No, I don't think so. No? Why?
+
+[29:21] What about you, Dave? You like wheat germ? Uh, no opinion, I guess. What what context would I be eating wheat germ in? I like to put wheat germ in my pancakes.
+
+[29:30] In my pancake batter. You know, uh, you know, Paul Adams was here, I guess last week, right? Yes. Yeah. So he's like, you know, now he's doing the the uh magazine, the Cooks Illustrated Magazine.
+
+[29:41] One thing I learned from them back in uh the year 1993 was add all of that kind of stuff to your batter uh very, very early because it's just like one of the reasons people have a problem is if you mix if you mix in white flour and then a bunch of other stuff like wheat germ and everything, like the white flour is gonna compete for hydration with the wheat germ. The wheat germ's just never gonna hydrate properly. So you gotta do a couple of minutes of pre-soak of uh things like wheat germ or anything like that to non-standard flour to get it to kind of swell, get as much water in as possible, and then you can add the rest of your solids. Little trick. But I love wheat germ in a pancake.
+
+[30:19] Uh I even sometimes um will add a little bit to the milk base in something like a biscuit. But I love I love the taste of wheat germ. I like it. Um another thing people don't necessarily know, a lot of times people are worried when they're working with alternative uh alternative uh things that that need extra hydration time. So thicker corn meals or wheat germ or any anything that's considered you know difficult to hydrate.
+
+[30:47] Just put it in the freaking blender because it everyone's worried about developing gluten, right? You're gonna aerate this stuff anyway, so you're not worried about getting too much air in it. You're not making crip. So, you know, uh Dax was making fun of the word crep the other day. He was like, what kind of food do you make?
+
+[31:01] Crip. Your food's crep? No, crep. He's going on because he's like you know, doing a crap crep thing because it's Dax. And we'll talk about Paris a little later.
+
+[31:07] Uh but my point being that uh don't be afraid to take your initial base, like uh if you're gonna put wheat germ or anything into let's say buttermilk for a pancake, just put all that crap in there in it with in a blender. Just blend it all and then pour it out, and then of course, don't blend in the main part. The other thing it's true is if you have a little bit of something starchy that doesn't have gluten in it, you can then add your fat or butter directly to that liquid base. And then once you add that stuff to the liquid base in the blender, it's much more difficult for gluten to form when you're stirring in your uh when you're stirring in your regular AP flour. So I almost always, when I'm making batters, I will add any non uh like non-gluten forming and or difficult to hydrate stuff first.
+
+[31:53] So I usually do a mixture in pancakes of, like I say, wheat germ. I a lot of times we'll add oats, because I also like oats in uh in pancakes. I'll do a very, very fast blend with a little bit of the AP flour. I'll add in the uh butter. At that point, you've really stopped a lot of the gluten, you're not gonna get a lot of gluten formation.
+
+[32:13] You stir in the uh in the rest of the flour, and you're you it's never gonna toughen up. I've never had them toughen up on me. Anyway, tips about wheat germ since we're since we had such a long thing on wheat germ during the break, I think I'd extend it even longer and have even more discussion of wheat wheat. You know who you got me to like? Buckwheat.
+
+[32:29] Yeah? I love buckwheat. Oh, your soda was good. Oh, that buckwheat soda was good, right? The buckwheat chai with the buckwheat.
+
+[32:35] Yeah, that's good with a little lime. So you take your buckwheat, you make a buckwheat tea, similar to, you know how do you like soba or not? No. Yeah. You know, at the end they serve you the little bit of anyway.
+
+[32:45] So it's kind of like that kind of liquid, but with unused kind of buckwheat, just like a buckwheat tea. Uh, then strain it with uh lime and just a hint of salt, and that makes a delicious soda. Unusual. Like it a lot. Uh but back to the wheat germ for one second.
+
+[33:00] Wheat germ, because it has the fat in it, you want to store that sucker in the fridge. You want to store your wheat germ in the fridge. You don't want to let it stay on the pantry because it'll go rancid. Rancid. Great band.
+
+[33:13] Yeah? You're a fan of rancid? Sure. Yeah? Dave, do you pine nuts have uh uh natural rancidity?
+
+[33:22] Uh all nuts, like many nuts will go rancid. I don't really know how fast pine nuts go rancid, but I know there are pine nuts that come out of the bag rancid. Um I know like certain walnuts go rancid really quickly. You like a rancid nut as much as I uh hate a rancid nut? Well no, someone at the restaurant told Mark that the pesto, she had a rancid meter, she was like rancid sensitive, and that the pesto was definitely rancid.
+
+[33:49] And I was like, Did you taste it? But then I was like, it must be the pine nuts because nothing else. Uh oil. Yeah, but meaning your pesto has what? Is it straight olive oil or olive oil butter mix?
+
+[34:04] No, straight olive oil. So straight olive oil, pine nuts, basil, garlic. Yeah. So yeah, the oil can go rancid, but you I think you'd notice that. And then I mean I guess it's theoretically true.
+
+[34:16] This pineapple, I mean there are those weird uh, you know, like remember Nick Wong got one of those weird pine nuts once that like took him out for like a month. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I never really understood what that was, the crazy pine nut. But yeah, he got a crazy pine nut that took him out.
+
+[34:30] Um there's another possibility is that this woman's bananas. You know what I mean? Yeah. No one else had a problem with it? No.
+
+[34:37] Because pretty much everyone can taste rancidity. She might be hypersensitive to it, but I think everyone would notice that there was something off. And you tasted it and you didn't notice anything off. Mark tasted it, he didn't notice anything off. It could also be something specific in her dish.
+
+[34:52] Maybe. You know what I mean? No one else had a problem that day with the pesto. Here's another thing. Like when you're making pesto, it's not you don't put individual pine nuts over the top, right?
+
+[35:02] No. It's it's all in there, right? So, like if you had like a couple of rancid pine nuts in there, you would it would totally obliterate the entire batch. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[35:11] Or rancid or just off, like moldy let that's what I was saying. Remember I I was talking a couple weeks ago about how when I use pistachios at the bar or in restaurant, I make them I make everyone sort them all because the difference between blending unsorted uh pistachios from blending uh sorted pistachios is the difference between something that is not very good and something that's completely incredibly delicious. You know what I mean? Uh I mean, look, it's possible. Or this lady could have just did she was she like otherwise a good customer?
+
+[35:43] Yeah. Alright. Did you get her something else? Uh she didn't want anything else. Yeah.
+
+[35:49] Doesn't sound like a good customer. No, I don't think she was a good customer. So why do you say she was a good customer? Which is I've seen bad. So she wasn't bad.
+
+[35:56] Yeah, oh my god. Uh that's one of the things I'm looking forward to, is uh when we reopen the bar when we open the new bar. By the way, remember the first booker and Dax customer? Yeah, the very first customer was one of the worst customers I've ever had in my life. Yeah.
+
+[36:08] She wouldn't even let me pour her a drink. Yeah. She stormed out. Yeah. She was angry at me.
+
+[36:12] Yeah. What did you do? Nothing. She came in and she said uh she'd been waiting, waiting out outside for the door to open on the very first day that we were open. We didn't do any soft openings, we didn't do any friends and family, I don't think.
+
+[36:25] Maybe we had one friends and family, I don't know, but we had like uh we opened the doors, and you know, she was waiting in line, came in, was angry that she had been waiting in line on the very first day we're open, and then ordered, didn't look at the menu, ordered like uh like I think the equivalent of like a vodka soda, and I was like, Yeah, I'm ha I'm happy to make you that. It's gonna take me like 10 minutes because I have to I have to chill the vodka down. I don't have soda, I'm not gonna pour soda water into vodka, warm vodka over an ice cube, and and that's not gonna be the first drink I'm making at this bar. That won't happen. She's like, I'm more than happy to make you exactly what you want, but it's gonna take me a little bit of time to I have to carbonate it and all this.
+
+[37:09] She was like, this is ridiculous. She got up and left. I was like, wow. She was yelling at me. Remember?
+
+[37:14] You were there, weren't you? She was being so mean to me. But you know, it's like start. It's a great start. Great start.
+
+[37:20] I I honestly went like when she because I, you know, before that, you know, I had d done, you know, a boat ton of events, or you know, gone done, you know, guest things at other people's restaurants or whatever, but you know, that was the first place that I had ever opened, and I was like, this was a mistake. You know what I mean? Like, I should not have done this. You know what I mean? Like, um, anyways, uh, it got better.
+
+[37:46] Uh closed. Well, we as as I like to say, we lost our we lost our lease. It wasn't that we doesn't it wasn't like people didn't want to come have the drinks. You know, again, contractually obliged to not talk about it. Um Gordon wrote in a long time ago.
+
+[38:01] So I'm gonna finally get to it. Uh I have some questions for the cooking issues, folks, about methell meringues. Uh, please let me know if there's a better email. Nope, looks like it got to me. Uh so methysol, for those of you that uh aren't hip to it.
+
+[38:13] Uh methysol is uh one of the hydrocolloids. Uh methell is spelled, it's not methyl cellulose, it's methocel, spelled with one L C E L. M-E-T uh H O C E L. Were you were you singing Method of Modern Love in your head? M-E-T-H-O-D-O-L-H-M-M-E-T-H-O-D O F L O V E.
+
+[38:35] Remember that song? Mm mm. Isn't that hard at Hollow Notes? I thought you knew every Hollow Notes song. I don't think so.
+
+[38:40] Yo, Dave, is that is that uh Hollow Notes? I'm not familiar with that. Method of Modern Love. Just look at Google aid it. You googalize it.
+
+[38:49] So, anyways, so uh Methell is made by Dow. Yeah, it's by Hollow Notes. Yeah, dude. I'm telling you. I have my I have the hollow notes, like it's all in there.
+
+[38:58] It's all up in the in the in the in the brain pan. So uh it's not actually all methyl cellulose. It's it can either be methylcellulose or hydroxypropo methyl cellulose, but um they are a gr it's a group of hydrocolloids. Yeah. That's all you can do?
+
+[39:17] You can't give me the M E T H O D. M E T H O D. You gotta give me the M E T H O D. O F L O V E. Oh, yeah.
+
+[39:26] Yeah. Um so uh methyl cellulose is one of the very few hydrocolloids that in fact is not natural. So they take cellulose fibers and modify them. Uh and so they're not all natural. So some people don't use them for that reason, but they have some cool properties.
+
+[39:41] Um one of them in particular is methylcel F50, is a very good uh kind of foaming agent. Um another uh another cool property that they have is that method of mind. Uh the uh another uh cool thing they have is that when you heat them, they gel. So most things, when you heat them, if they're going to do anything, they'll melt. And when they cool, then if they're gonna do anything, they gel.
+
+[40:09] Methocell is the opposite. As you heat it, it will form uh a gel. But they all have different kind of numbers and and whatnot, and the gelling ones, like the A series or the S G series, are not the ones you use in uh meringue. Siri was when I started singing that song, Siri was like, Oh, something something I said to Siri makes her think that I want her to pop up. By the way, this is one of the corniest videos I've ever seen.
+
+[40:32] Oh, really? An 80s video from Holland Oats is corny? Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable. What are they doing?
+
+[40:37] I can't even describe. You're gonna have to that's probably illegal for me to describe. He's contractually obliged to be a man. Contractually obligated to say nothing. So, anyways, so um so the one that you use for meringues is one called F50, F like Frank 50.
+
+[40:56] Uh and so, you know, it's a good thing to use if you don't want to use if you want to use a hydrocolloid instead of a protein like VersaWhip. So VersaWhip is um they make a couple different versa waves, so like the competitor to F50 would be VersaWhip. But the cool thing about the F the F50 is is that if you whip something into a meringue with F50, pipe it, you can dehydrate it and form hard meringues, right? They're uh they're they're not hard, is not the right word, right? It starts because they're not super hard, but they're crunchy.
+
+[41:25] And you can actually make little like macaroni style things. Anyway, so that's that's what we're talking about here, people. Uh so I've heard Dave talk a number of times about why uh a number of times. This is back to the question now that I've explained what methyl cell is. Um I've heard Dave talk a number of times about uh times about Wiley Dufrein's methyl cellulose meringues.
+
+[41:43] These are made by combining fruit juice or really any liquid and methyl cell F50, whipping into a foam and dehydrating. I haven't been able to find a more detailed recipe for this, and Wiley's WD uh 50 cookbook isn't out yet. Shows how long this question's been in the freaking bank's does. But yeah. But you can't do it.
+
+[41:58] I mean that book's out now, bin out. What? Isn't it on the blog? I don't know. Is it on the blog?
+
+[42:02] I'm sure it's on the blog. Or in Chimos's. You can look in Kymos's uh uh textures uh website, you know, that uh Martin Lersh puts out. Uh I tried making them a couple of times, just winging it, but it didn't go well. I hydried I hydrated the methyl cellus described in Modernist Cuisine and then hooked it with a hand mixer and dehydrated it in an excaliber.
+
+[42:22] It took a very long time whipping to get a decent foam, and I never got the dense microfoam texture of a good meringue. The bubbles then coalesced a lot during dehydration, leaving a structure that was not nearly dense enough, almost completely hollow with very large bubbles. Can you give a detailed recipe for this? Or a couple of specific points. Oh, a couple of specific points I wondered about was whether the methyl cell mixture should be heated when whipping it?
+
+[42:44] No. Uh what temperature should be used when dehydrating it. I can't remember. I think we used to do 135. The issue is if you go uh too low, they take a long time to set.
+
+[42:53] But if you go too high, uh over the time that they dehydrate, they can get uh kind of they can go brown and get kind of brown flavors depending on what you're doing. The one that I used to do all the time was passion fruit, and I'll I'll describe it uh in a little bit. Uh and whether the EC Whipper would be a better option than whipping with a mixer, no. Uh should I even expect dense micro-like foam texture? Yes.
+
+[43:13] Or do these meringues always have a much lower density than typical meringue? They do have a low, they're very micro, the bubbles are very micro, but they're still not dense in the fact in the sense that they're not heavy. They don't have like a lot of uh liquid in them. Uh one application I'm thinking about is using methyl cell meringues and making a macaron-style sandwich cookie. Would they be suitable for that or maybe need some tweaking, like with more added solids?
+
+[43:36] Gordon. Okay. So we used to actually do just that. We would make uh like a like a like some sort of cream cream filling, I forget what flavor we used to do, and then we would make like passion fruit uh F-50 meringues. You'd pipe them into little half domes, you'd set them, and then you'd make little macarons out of them.
+
+[43:54] The problem with there's a couple of problems here. Uh I'll give you some advice and then some problems. I'll do that in reverse. I'll give you some problems and then some advice. So the problems are is that F50 uh meringues are extremely hygroscopic, so they suck moisture out of the air and they go soft very quickly.
+
+[44:10] And since they don't have a lot of mass to them, they uh get soggy real quick. Now there's because there's not a lot of stuff there there. The cool thing about them is that when they are crisp and crunchy, you throw them in your mouth, and as you bite on them, they almost disappear. They just completely go away. They leave almost no residue in your mouth.
+
+[44:27] They're cool, and you can get punchy flavor. When you're when you are making it though, remember, anytime you're making a meringue, especially with F50, where it's not, as you say, dense. It can be a microfoam kind of looking structure, but it's still not very dense. Uh, when you're doing that, you need to really up the flavor on the liquid because it will not have a lot of flavor because you're putting a whole boat ton of air into it. But we used to store them in the dehydrator.
+
+[44:51] So when you're dehydrating, let's say you're dehydrating at 135, you dehydrate it just to the point where they're uh they start getting hard and they're a little crisp, then immediately turn your dehydrator down to like a hundred so that you don't get them to brown because you're gonna be holding them for a long time because you need to hold them in the dehydrator for service. Alternatively, you can put them in mason jars and vacuum pack them so that there's no moisture or keep them with desiccants. Otherwise, you there's no way if you're cooking these things in uh a kitchen where it's humid and you leave it out for even like an hour, it's gonna start getting mushy, and then when you serve it, it needs to be served right away. It's gonna be problems. So you need some way to keep them from serve for service if you're going to do them.
+
+[45:33] So it's hard to do with huge, like high kind of like high run items, or if you're gonna be sending out millions of these over the course of the night. But if you're doing a couple and you can keep your dehydrator running, uh, or you can keep them stored individually with desiccant or in VAC, you'll you'll be fine, and you can definitely pipe the stuff in between. Now, as for the thing, there's a key to your question that leads me to think that you're they're making some kinds of uh uh error. One is you said any kind of liquid, and it's not the case. You can't take straight fruit juice and uh whip it with methyl cellulose, it just won't ever achieve the kind of uh texture you're looking for.
+
+[46:06] Now, um it is true that for any given uh product that you're whipping, the more uh F50 that you add to it, the denser the foam will be, and the less you add, the bigger the bubbles are, and the more uh coalescing of the bubbles you're gonna get during the dehydration step. But the key that most that to getting a good result is to not use a juice but to use a puree, something that has some pectin, some structure, something in it, something to whip. So the F50 is a whipping agent, so it can help make bubbles, but unless there's a structure there to to hold it once it's whipped up, it's not going to, it's not gonna do uh anything for you. So uh, you know, passion fruit puree is great, any raspberry puree, strawberry, strawberry puree, even though it's raspberry puree, but like for some reason straw, whenever I use I use strawberry puree a lot more than I use raspberry puree, and so whenever I do it, I have to sing a little prints to myself. Anyways, um point being you need some stuff.
+
+[47:03] So some people when they use uh things that don't have anything would literally throw uh you know dextrins, maltodextrin, all kind of stuff into it just to add bulk so that you uh can whip it. But you it needs to be juice with some bulk. You can also Ooh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry, I was whipping it. Whipping it.
+
+[47:24] Oh, into shape. I heard some crazy stuff about Devo. Like the people in Devo. Devo. Like Devo.
+
+[47:30] Uh anyway, so that is my uh those are my recommendations. Don't go over a percent. Anything over about a percent of methyl cell F50, you're gonna start tasting the methyl cell. And uh Nastasia right or wrong ain't nobody want to taste the methyl cell. Right?
+
+[47:42] You don't want to taste you don't want to taste methacill. I actually don't like those puff things. Even the passion fruit ones? Mm-mm. I don't like the texture.
+
+[47:50] Why? Because I don't like the sound of styrofoam breaking or ice crunching. Yet another one of those crazy things that Nastasia just does not like. Oh also uh I'm gonna end on one thing in a second but uh we had from Skunk Grunt on uh Twitter asked me about Swiss chard uh and why it tastes dirty and I said I didn't really I don't really get that and then Nick Devlin who helps uh helps me with my uh with uh console the uh differential equations modeling stuff for low temperature cooking and who has a spinz all he looked up and indeed Swiss chard occasionally uh has Josmin in it and Josmin is the stuff that makes things taste dirty and you might know it best from crappy tilapia and your favorite style is what beats beats beats. Anyway so uh on the way out I'm sure Dave's gonna kick us off the microphone in a second.
+
+[48:40] I just want to put these ideas in your head uh for things you should maybe cook over the holidays things that I've cooked forever right but that aren't necessarily standard anymore. Uh I'm putting this out there I don't know if you were in my house for this does were you there when I did the cranberry pudding so I am a huge fan of old school boiled puddings like British style bo boiled puddings, right? And the one that I always used to make growing up, and this is a great holiday. It's kind of like it's doesn't take any new techniques, uh but it's like super impressive. Is gourmet's best desserts, which came out, I forget whether it was the I think it was the eight, it was at the 80s, because my mom started making it when I was in like junior high.
+
+[49:20] Uh gourmet's best desserts, and it's a well-known cookbook. Those those who know like the gourmet, by the way, I never told Michael Batterbury about this recipe because he used to hate gourmet, but like I loved that cookbook, Gourmet's Best Desserts, and I used to make a bunch of stuff out of it. But their cranberry pudding recipe and Food Network, you can find online. It's not a direct, it's adapted, but Food Network Online has a version of their recipe. But uh you have to get what's called uh pudding mold.
+
+[49:45] And pudding molds are a lot of fun. They look like miniature bunt, uh they look like miniature bunt things. Is it maybe being clear styles? Bunt bunt cake holders pans. By the way, someone does sell the bunt cake, uh, the bunt pan, uh the electric countertop bunt pan in the United States.
+
+[50:02] Should I buy one? Yeah. They're miniature though, they make half-size cakes. What do you think about a half-size bunt cake? That's fine.
+
+[50:07] You think I should buy one? Yeah. And test it out and just do bunt madness. Put it on the company. Oh, we really have a card.
+
+[50:14] Well, when we get a card, should I buy one? We'll just do bunt madness, bunt madness. You like bunts? I love bunts. Yeah.
+
+[50:19] Anyway, so the pudding mold is like a big bunts. You've just got them all today, Dave. I can't you know, like there was a certain point, like I forget when it was, but when like all of a sudden you couldn't quote Sir Mix a lot anymore. I don't know what it was. But I guess if it's bunts.
+
+[50:33] Is that a holiday? Was that a something I missed? I don't know. Uh but this is a small bunt, so you're saying you wouldn't like it if you're pulling out the mix a lot. I mean, I'll I'll eat any size butt.
+
+[50:42] So you prefer a big bunt. You can't lie about that fact. I can't lie. But you will you will also you're okay with skinny bunts. You're not saying that you're, you know, you're okay with a skinny bunt.
+
+[50:53] Absolutely. Okay. All shapes and sizes. Yeah. All right, nice.
+
+[50:56] I like I like an equal opportunity bunt man. Uh anyways. So the to go back to it, it's like a it's like a it's like a mini bunt uh pan with a lid on it, and the lid uh closes over, and you make them in this case, you take fresh cranberries, you um you blend them. It's got cranberries, eggs, sugar, butter, a load of butter, uh, and a bunch of bread crumbs. And then the original recipe has all dried spices in it, like dried ginger, but you know, you can use fresh ginger.
+
+[51:26] I do. I put a bunch of citrus zest into it. And so you take this kind of mixture, this agglomeration. There's baking powder, I don't know if I mentioned that. And like nutmeg, all that kind of stuff.
+
+[51:36] And you put it into the into the pudding mold and you go bop bop bop, and you knock it down so that it settles into the mold, then you click the lid on and you boil it for like two hours. And uh the all the old recipes for puddings, especially there's a lot of puddings that are made outside of molds in cloths, boiled puddings that aren't in a metal mold. And so, like all of those old recipes have you like water and flour, and then tie these like cloths around your pudding mold. All of this stuff's unnecessary nowadays. Just put a string or something in it so that you can retrieve it and put it on top of a rack and then like you know, make sure that it's not floating and bobbing about and ignore any of those recipes that tell you you have to like you know make it look like Marley from uh Scrooge and Marley with you know his jaw tied up with crazy, you know, Christmas Carol kind of stuff.
+
+[52:20] You know what I'm talking about, Stas? Kind of. Yeah, Jacob Marley, he tied his face together with a cloth, and then he he undid it, and his jaw fell down and freaked out Scrooge. Anyways, forget all of those instructions. You cook it for about two minutes.
+
+[52:30] Also, the original recipe is a bit of a toothache. Uh, they make a cranberry glaze uh with juice. I recommend making traditional kind of uh cranberry sauce. Just make it a little on the light side because you don't want it to set up a hundred percent. Pull it out, let it cool down.
+
+[52:44] If you unmold your pudding super hot, the great thing it stays hot for a long, long, long time. If you just take out the pudding mold, tent it, and then let it sit uh for a million years, it'll stay uh warm for the entire length of the dinner. But you want it to be warm when you take it out, but not hot. If it's hot in the middle, it'll collapse. Tell them about that Pink Floyd song when they would say that when you would think about which one?
+
+[53:05] The pudding part. If you don't If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding. How are you gonna eat your pudding if you can't have your if you're gonna have to pick up the page? And when you were a little kid, you were like, why don't these kids want to go to school? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[53:17] Right. I was I was not the guy. Uh like I didn't understand the whole wall thing until much later. Anyway, back to this, because they're gonna kick us off the air. If you don't eat your meat, don't you love that section?
+
+[53:25] No. What? What about you, Dave? You like that, right? What about that particular section?
+
+[53:31] Uh I just I hate the wall. How the hell are you gonna have your pudding if you don't eat your meat? I mean, yeah, it's a good question, but I hate that album. All right, anyway, whatever. Uh I'm Pink Floyd.
+
+[53:40] I'm surrounded by people who hate that album. Philistines. My wife also hates that album. Anyway, back to the pudding. So uh don't make this the cranberry glaze the way they say it.
+
+[53:50] Make it more like a traditional cranberry sauce. Uh don't let it cool down until it gels, it sets. Keep the cranberry sauce warm so the pectin doesn't fully set up on you. Then pour that over the top of the pudding after you unmold it. Uh if you celebrate Christmas, rip a piece off your Christmas tree, spike it on the top.
+
+[54:07] And here's the baller thing. Warm up. If you're gonna do flambey, don't forget you gotta warm your quantro before you flame it, or you're not gonna uh flame it uh aggressively or or write take a um a cup, a measuring cup or something like this. Don't warm it with heat with a flame. That would be a dumb way to do it.
+
+[54:26] Heat it like in the nuke or something like that, and then light it and then pour the flaming quantro over the top of the uh over the top of this uh cranberry pudding go look it up is extremely festive and very impressive and yet at the same time old school it's so old school that it's new school because ain't nobody make that kind of pudding anymore anyway uh if you try it let me know cooking issues thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network food radio supported by you for our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events subscribe to our newsletter enter your email at the bottom of our website heritageradionetwork.org connect with us on Facebook Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better fairer more delicious place and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community rate the shows you like tell your friends and please join our community by becoming a member just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage thanks for listening Mm-hmm.
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+[0:00] Hurst Ranch is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. Learn more about Hearst Ranch at Hurstranch.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:27] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from a Bernard's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Not joined as usual with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. In her place, we have the one, the only Johnny Hunter from Mad Town, Madison, Wisconsin.
+
+[1:03] You got your underground meats. What else you got there? Underground Butcher, four-quarter restaurant, underground catering. Just like all kind of underground. Yeah.
+
+[1:09] All kind of all kind of underground. And of course, we got uh Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? I'm doing good. How about you?
+
+[1:14] Doing well. So uh this is the uh holiday meat curing meat tacular. So why don't you call in, please, all of your meat-related questions to 718 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Did I get that right?
+
+[1:31] I wasn't even listening to myself. Uh I wasn't listening to you either. 718-497-2128. That's 71718-497-2128. Yeah, so Nastasia, I can't say exactly what Nastasia's doing, but uh like she look she is cooking for one of her dream, like her absolute dream client.
+
+[1:48] I said her dream's coming true, and Dave said, Well, you're still alive, so it can't be all of your dreams of country. Foxman Friends. Oh man. Oh, speaking of, like, uh, if you're listening to this uh later, today is the day of the Roy Moore election in uh in Alabama. And this is not a political show, so I guess we shouldn't get into it, but like we're just gonna see just what kind of a place we are, huh?
+
+[2:11] Yeah, make pedophilia acceptable again. Oh, gee. Wait, not a political show, guys. That's that wasn't political. That was just humanity.
+
+[2:20] I mean, that's that's just ain't that the truth? It's just crazy. Yeah, one one of the candidates like prosecuted the KKK, and the other one, you know, basically is part of the KKK. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, you know, what I don't know I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[2:32] I'm like, like, if you know, basically, a you know, a Democrat in Alabama is like a Republican to the rest of us anyway. You know what I mean? To a New Yorker? I mean, you know, uh again, not a political not talking politics. Yeah, we're we're gonna do a special show for that, right?
+
+[2:45] We're trying to, we gotta get some guests. If anyone out there, uh like what I need is like two people. So basically, any political person, right? Odds are I'm gonna disagree with them about something. This is the idea for the show that we somehow can't get off the ground, right?
+
+[3:00] Is uh we're gonna get some people in and we're gonna ostensibly be talking about food, but then we're just gonna like like you know, like hit them with some barbs about their political views and just have them argue back and forth. Because pretty much like, you know, almost anyone I can dis I can disagree with almost almost anybody. John Podesta would be a good one on that one, right? Uh I I mean like uh, you know the like Hillary campaign manager who all those email he's like I had these cooking parties and then they were like thought they were spirits and Satanism and you know the guy? Wait, what?
+
+[3:29] Do you know the guy? I mean like I don't know John DePeddett. I mean, like, that's the thing. Like, you know, I gotta I gotta get some into some. I think that would be a good person.
+
+[3:36] I mean, I don't necessarily uh yeah, I mean it'd be fun anyway. Anyway, so we want to do it, but we're trying to find like you know, a guest that we can get a hold of. I actually was at a Christmas party with one of Hillary Clinton's lawyers. Yeah. He was an interesting guy, but I don't know.
+
+[3:51] They might be able to get John Podesta for you. He would be the one because like the I don't know if you remember the scandal, but they they were searching his emails after they got hacked, and he decided he was gonna be cooking a spirit dinner. And uh, and so then this right-wing conspiracy theory about how he was like you know into Satanism and all these other things came out. Yeah, you know, but the duck recipe from the emails look delicious. Yeah, well, do you remember what it was?
+
+[4:14] Not exactly, but I'm sure we can look it up. By the way, we had a couple questions a couple weeks ago on geese. Do you have any advice on cooking geese as opposed to duck? Um can you cook a goose without without breaking it apart? No.
+
+[4:27] That's the thing, like that's the uh Jeffrey Steingarden article. Oh, he just wrote one? No, like uh in The Man Who Everything, he has a whole essay about that. I think it's very, you know, he was like taking you know packs of ice and putting it on the breasts as he was cooking it. Yeah, and yeah, I just don't think it can it's always gonna be dry.
+
+[4:44] Well, here's the thing, right? So the question is I mean, I don't know that much about the geese that we raise here in this country, right? I know for like an absolute certainty that if it was within my power, I would shoot and eat, figure out how to cook and shoot and kill every goose on earth. I think they're vile creatures. They are terrible.
+
+[5:04] I I hate them. You know what I mean? Like, which is sad because I love ducks and love to love to cook ducks, but I actually like ducks, the animal. Yeah, they're they're good animals. Yeah, they're they're friendly and they leave you alone, but geese will attack you.
+
+[5:16] Geese will attack the hell out of you with that. Like a duck's just like and then like a duck, like if you walk up to like a group of ducks, they're like and they walk away from you. You walk up to a goose, and the goose is like and like snapping at you, and you don't even have to walk up to it. If you pass by and go out of your way, they will still like be protective and push you. Yeah, plus like you feel like you're on the surface of a giant entamin's donut.
+
+[5:40] For those of you that you know, I don't know, entamans are they only East Coast? No, they have those in the midwest. Right. So you know the they they have the ones that have like goose turds on them. Yeah, so like, but like it's like that level of goose turding is what if you grew up in the east, like I'm sure the fly can Canada geese have their flyaway in the middle of the country too, right?
+
+[5:56] Yeah, yeah, we get quite a few Canada geese. Yeah, so there's a major flyway up the coast. And so, like, yeah, we have like someone's like if you have a field and a pond, I mean, forget it. You know what I mean? It's like you live on like an entamin's donut of goose poop.
+
+[6:09] It's like I mean, Madison is basically two lakes surrounding like an isthmus, and so we get geese everywhere. So you're saying it like you it originally was one lake, and then the geese pooped in it so much created created that's the foundation of the city is just goose poop. The isthmus of is it technically an well, I guess it's not too, it's not uh you can't have an isthmus between lakes, right? What do you call the little spit of land between they call it an isthmus? Really?
+
+[6:34] Yeah, that's a good word because it it it it sounds weird. Yeah, it's it's miss. It does sound weird. So my question is is uh so you know murder every goose, yes. Uh but the classic thing, like this in the same way that a lot of Americans would smack you across the face for breaking their turkey apart at Thanksgiving, like the Christmas goose was definitely a whole roasted uh bird.
+
+[6:59] Now it presents nicely. Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, I guess, but like I mean, but they must have had a different goose, right? I mean, I would I'd imagine that the European geese are probably like fattier and more delicious just because there's a foundation of cultural heritage to coca those. It just has to be has to be a different.
+
+[7:14] I think it just has to be a different, like a different yeah, variety or something. Maybe also there is a you know a predilection to having dry breast meat, and then there's focusing on the leg meat more. Yeah. I mean you can't you just gonna get gotta give up one or the other. I mean, because also like even though like the geese I've cooked are physically a lot longer, I get less meat out of them than I get out of my ducks.
+
+[7:37] Yeah, such a small amount of meat. The breasts you tiny. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Like maybe they were just like focusing on the skin and you know, I don't know.
+
+[7:44] Maybe I don't know. I like I remember when I was a kid, my grandparents, that was like the one of my first culinary things was cooking a whole goose with the neck and no one knew how to eat it. Wow. It's kind of disgusting. Yeah, yeah, because it's greasy.
+
+[7:57] Look, especially if you don't know how to cook. Look, I I look we'll get we'll get back into into uh into geese someday, I'm sure, or I'll figure it out. But it seems like uh it's a cop out to to break it, you know, to break it down. I mean I understand why because you're being an enemy of quality if you ruin the whole goose, but there's gotta be some way to do it that doesn't involve like for instance like dipping its legs into into like you know geese goose stock for two hours and then pulling it, air drying the whole thing, and you know, yeah. I mean I maybe just cook it really low, like 175, cook it upside down.
+
+[8:32] For like a yeah, I don't know. Do you would you do the pecking duck thing? Would you do the the the the hot the hot water pour over, break the skin, puff it up, yeah. You'll have good luck. I mean, then you get crispy skin, that's delicious.
+
+[8:44] Yeah, everyone likes crispy skin. Well, no, I'm sure there's some jerk who doesn't like crispy skin. So anyway, so we have a question in from uh John Darragon. Uh wanted to call in, but not sure I'll be on my meeting. So here you are.
+
+[8:55] I ordered a whole uh bone out, so bone out, meaning bone removed. So what's the point? What's the b Yeah, bone out. You mean boneless is what you're looking to say here, John. But like uh so what could possibly be your problem if you already took the bone out of the if they've I mean the entire thing about a cured ham is how much it sucks to take the bone out.
+
+[9:14] I I just cooked a cured ham this weekend in New York. Whoa, whoa, whoa, why'd you cook it? Uh so w I we it was a country ham. Right. And so we we wanted to serve it Christmas ham.
+
+[9:24] Right. Old style, like you say you old style cooked. What temperature do you cook it to? Uh I you so we didn't have my friend didn't have a pot that was big enough to hold the pan in. Right.
+
+[9:34] And so we he had a we bought a we bought a trash can. And we souvie'd it in in the water. So we cooked at one sixty-five. How was it? It was delicious.
+
+[9:43] Yeah. So um a couple of things, like I haven't cooked a country ham in a long time because you know, I'm uh I've been for years pushing to like eating it raw. Yeah, like slice. But the thing about it is um did you soak it? Yeah, but it it didn't get much w salt out of it.
+
+[9:59] Yeah. I don't think that works that well. No, I mean that but that's just the way you know I grew up. You soak it. Yeah.
+
+[10:04] You know, but then you of course you're cooking it in excess water. You know the old old school way of cooking a country ham, right? You know? What they would do is they would get the um they would call them lard cans, because they're a five gallon lard cans, and you'd throw the the put the ham into the lard can, bring the bring the water in the lard can up to the boil, close it, like seal it down, and then just let it ride through, let it like average out in temperature. It's basically what we did.
+
+[10:30] Yeah. And then well the and the good thing about that is that the outside gets a little more, but I think that helps the water penetrate, pull some of the salt out, helps them moisturize a little bit. Yeah, the cold water just did not pull out any salt. Well, I mean, think about it. Like that meat is so dense.
+
+[10:43] Yeah. You know, I mean nothing's gonna get into the center of that that meat. Which which hand did you did you cook? We made our o we made our own. Oh you cooked your own.
+
+[10:50] You went through all the trouble of curing your own ham and then you cooked it. Yeah. Did you were you punching yourself in the face a little bit as you were doing it? Or no, were you made we made like twenty. All right.
+
+[10:59] So did you slice it super thin and put it on eggs or biscuits? Uh I did not put it on biscuits or eggs, but we did slice it very thin. Yeah. That's the other mistake people make. They cut they they do the big pieces, you know what I mean?
+
+[11:10] Thick cut. It's hard to cook a uh cut a cooked country ham because it's so friable. It like breaks up into like little shards. I actually think the shards I actually think it's delicious. Like I like I I do.
+
+[11:20] It wasn't pretty. No, but like the thing about it is is that uh first of all, the average like modern city style American person doesn't want to deal with that intense level of salt. They really don't understand the main meat course being a seasoning meat and not like uh uh a huge uh quantity of flesh meat. Yeah. You know, don't you think that's a problem?
+
+[11:42] Yeah, I mean I I mean I think that's what is amazing about cured meats in general is that they last forever and they're intensely seasoned and you know, lets you eat less protein, you know, from I think the the idea that the ideal is like a twenty-two inch, you know, steak for every meal. Well, I mean, you gotta remember there were certain periods in our history where like, you know, we were trying to yeah, eat as much as humanly possible. Like think about it. We we s we sl in our attempt, you know, in like among other the horri uh the horrific things that that you know uh we d we meaning white folk did uh in the eighteen hundreds, wiping out all of the bison. Yeah.
+
+[12:20] I mean, think of how much like I mean, I'm sure they let the vast majority of it just rot, but then you know, they just take the skins and the loins. Yeah, well, it ate, yeah, but ate an unconscionable amount of it. Just like a crazy amount. If you read the old accounts of eating buffalo, where they're like, a man can't eat enough buffalo meat, a man never gets his fill of buffalo meat. You ever read that?
+
+[12:39] Yeah, I mean, I've definitely read about the history of the and then some of the you know, kind of people talking about how they hunt it and stuff. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, it's it's it's like a hurry, it's like it just goes to show how terrible people can be to each other. Uh anyway, so back to this question.
+
+[12:55] Um, and to animals, people can be terrible to each other and animals. Because that's it, that's one of those stories where uh we were attempting to be terrible to both people and animals. Yeah, yeah, that was yeah, yeah, horrible. All around terribleness. Yeah, wretched.
+
+[13:09] Uh anyway, so uh not not not that kind of show. Anyway, I ordered a whole bone out Suriano ham. So, as everyone knows, I hope who listens to this show, uh Sam Edwards is back online uh and selling the Seriano hams. I have not yet had one. Uh Dave, you had one over there.
+
+[13:23] Do you want to over Heritage and had one of the new Edwards? I have not yet, no. Oh, you're so you're um which are you like low quality person? Like, what's the deal? You haven't had one either.
+
+[13:31] Yeah, but like I don't I don't work here, I don't go over there on a daily basis. I don't either. I never go over there. I'm here. You never go over to the main office?
+
+[13:41] That's not the office anymore. Where have you been? Here? We don't we don't share an office with heritage foods any longer. Really?
+
+[13:48] Yeah, we're up the street at uh 100 Bogart. Bogart? Yeah. All right. By the way, speaking of uh driving around this neighborhood, people in New York who are like renting zip cars, whatever in the hell else you're renting, and you don't know how to drive, at an uncontrolled intersection, pedestrians have the absolute right of way.
+
+[14:10] Absolute right of way. And people in Wisconsin, they know this, right? At an uncontrolled intersection, the pedestrian has the absolute freaking right of way. Yeah, but you know what I hate. I hate when I am a pedestrian, though, and I try to wave a car through because you know, you're in a car, you're gonna get through the intersection a lot faster than me.
+
+[14:26] And then they wave back, like, no, no, no, you go. And I'm like, no, you go, you're in the car. I'm saying it's okay, so go. Most of the time I just put my kids in front. Yeah.
+
+[14:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the stroller. Yeah, like remember movie speed? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:40] When the lady and she's like, anyway, uh, go watch speed and look for the baby care scene. It's a good one. Uh, but no, like I had this person, and like I'm walking across the street, and then they blast through an uncontrolled intersection, laying on the horn, like trying to brush me past, like I'm the jerk. I mean, they don't know that I'm the jerk. I mean, like, I might be the jerk, but they don't know that.
+
+[15:01] Yeah. Absolute right of way, people. Uh, anyway, back to the ham. Uh I ordered a whole bone-out ham uh and had some at a party the other day, but have about six pounds left over at this point. I'm going on a trip for the next eight days and want to store it properly.
+
+[15:17] Is the best way to store it just to vacpack it and keep it in the fridge, or is it better to keep it backpacked at room temperature? I know there are worse problems than having too much leftover ham, but at this point I won't eat it all before I leave on Saturday. I actually don't like to vacpack uh unless you're doing it professionally, like, because I've seen vacpack stuff get m mold on it if it's not vacpacked down well, especially in the holes of a boned-out ham. What do you think? Yeah, and there's gonna be mold on the outside of it too, and that's gonna get like a slimy texture.
+
+[15:44] I mean, yeah, this is not a problem. Just throw it in the fridge. Yeah, just like light a light, like a like a light plastic wrappage, if anything, in in the fridge, and it's gonna be a few years. I mean, you don't want to be a little bit more than a few. Actually, the solution is is buy 30 pounds of lard, melt it in the lard vat, dump dump it in there, let it cool down, put it in the fridge.
+
+[16:04] Well, Morris Burger of Burgers Ham House used to uh what their family did was they would keep their hams in the barn hanging from wires because rats and mice couldn't climb wires. Could climb string. And so they would hang them from wires and they would cut out their like their um you know their frying slices for like eggs and breakfast in the morning and whatnot. And then uh they would just wipe lard over the cut surface. Yeah, that's I mean So they wouldn't coat the whole thing, they would just coat the cut surface.
+
+[16:34] When we have to so sometimes we have to um take the water activity of the hams that we're doing. So we'll cut a section out and then we just put some lard on it and it continues to cure. Yeah, I mean like honestly, the only problem with keeping it outside, uh meaning in your kitchen, the only problem with it is that you might get uh mites or larder beetles, and if the beetles start boring into the thing, it's freaking I I was hanging hams in my uh in my apartment for years. Like I would always have ham hanging in my apartment, like right next to the pots and pans, like from my overhead. And uh, because I always have my pan, you know, my pans like o overhead, I bolt into the ceiling.
+
+[17:14] I make uh what I the cheap way everyone buys these racks, like the all-clad racks, it's garbage. I go to I go to like uh I go to a uh a like a fixture store because they're all over here, and I buy the chrome rods that they use for making fixtures for like uh stores, like you know, garment racks, and they are they pre-sell all of the little holders to hold the rods up and then it's bang bang anchored into the ceiling and put S hooks over it and I bend the S hooks a little bit so they can't pop back off. It's a blah blah blah. And this is how I've done every hanging pot rack. I've never paid the all-clad corporation.
+
+[17:46] I'll pay them for pots, but why would I pay them for these goofy overdesigned freaking pot hanging things? So you you you hang hams from there too? Yeah. So were they already finished? Or yeah, I mean uh yes, but like I would always like I would order them and have them around because I, you know, always want to have ham around.
+
+[18:03] And yeah, he's hang them, but the uh you know, even um sometimes like you know, uh, you know, some of the people they they send them in burlaps, but a lot of times I would just have them just you know there naked and naked. And um until one day, I would always occasionally have mites. Once you get mites in your house, you get mites, but mites don't bother me. I just dust off the you know the that pile of like fat and mite bodies off of the thing underneath the ham. It doesn't bother me much.
+
+[18:29] But like I I got uh larder beetle or uh some sort of boring ham beetle in in in the house once, and like that was it. They bored into all of the freaking ham. And I never I never went back and even though I've moved since then to a different apartment, I've never gone back to uh because I'm not what's the stuff that they used to spray in the cure houses to uh kill all of those things and they're not allowed to use anymore. It's like methyl something, something maybe something broma it's something. They used to put they used to have some sort of um making air quotes food safe uh fumigant that they would fumigate hands with, but I don't think it's allowed anymore.
+
+[19:05] Yeah, I don't know. We and we've never had boring beetles in never had a beetle problem? No, thankfully. No, do you have mite problems? You have to do you see mice.
+
+[19:14] Do you like what do you do like an alcohol? Brush them off. Yep, just brush them off. We don't some people put like alcohol, like some like small people, not like major producers, but like you know, home people like to wipe down with salt water or or like a little bit of rubber, uh not rubbing alcohol, just like some kind of alcohol. I mean, you're worried if at our scale or any other scale, you're worried about drying out the skin too much and potentially not getting it even.
+
+[19:36] So I don't I wouldn't want to put anything that has too much evaporation on it. Right. Do you know who uh do you know who um Dale de Groff is? Yeah. You know Leo de Groff, his son, also bar person?
+
+[19:45] Okay. So they're from Rhode Island. You know where Rhode Island is. I do know where Rhode Island is. So uh I don't know if you know this.
+
+[19:50] You might you might you're not like from around there, you're from Madison, right? I'm from Wisconsin, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So uh they have a a very uh probably not like nationally but locally known culture of um supersod. They call it soupy.
+
+[20:05] You know, in Massachusetts they call it supersod or down here supersod, you would probably call it so pressata or something like this. But you know what I mean? But like they call them soup soupy, but like their way that they do it is once they cure it down, they oil pack all of their cured sausage. Really? Yeah, and they store it for years oil pack.
+
+[20:22] Uh I mean that that makes sense to me. You ever tried that for an aging to see whether it's different? Like, because it does like what they're doing is they're basically saying, okay, I'm gonna let the enzymatic stuff keep going, but I am cutting off dehydration. Yeah. So they choose their dehydration point that they want, and then that's it.
+
+[20:39] Yeah, I mean the only thing I would be worried about in that situation is Ransidi of the oil. So if you can control that, yeah. Well, there's the thing, they bury it. So like bury it. So yeah.
+
+[20:48] Yeah, so it's like they'll they'll I think they use a lick do they use a liquid? I for I don't know. But yeah, they they have like these big crocs, and they just put push the sausage down, the soup, the you know, the superside down into it, and then overfill the entire thing. And then he's like, and I store it under my sink. I want I'm gonna have Leo de Groff on here one day with his like under the sink oil stored supersoncy.
+
+[21:16] It'd be kind of a pain to uh to slice that up afterwards. Well I'm sure he dries it and everything. I don't think I don't know that he puts it back in. I think once you crack one, it's like you eat the you eat all the way through it. Yeah, sure.
+
+[21:27] Caller, you're on the air. Caller. Can you hear me? Yes. Alright, cool.
+
+[21:35] Hey, um so sorry to not have a meat question. I have a spin book question, but a meat aside, we live here in Washington. We're getting some hams from Oregon, and it they just have an overabundance of hazelnuts. So there's a number of farmers that finish or like let all of their pigs go wild on hazelnuts for months before they slaughter. So it might be cool, pseudo-spanish style local nut ham stuff.
+
+[21:59] Have you purchased them? Um wait, have you purchased this meat yet? Do you have a website or someplace where, for instance, Johnny can purchase some of this meat and like cure some? Have you ever eaten have you ever eaten nut fed me nut fed meat uh uncured? I'll I'll send you a link.
+
+[22:20] I'll find it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I will, because it's it's pretty exciting stuff. They just have like so many hazelnuts here that the pigs go wild.
+
+[22:28] Oh I would I mean, I would eat the hell out of that. Johnny? Yeah. Yeah, we get some uh some not finished. There's uh one of the farms we work with finishes it on acorns and and nuts.
+
+[22:40] Is it that place out of uh in the south, or is it or is it uh like in the middle? Where's the where's the core used? It's just west of us. So yeah. There's a there used to be a place in Tennessee that did mast fed uh hams all the way through.
+
+[22:54] They did their own, and then they went peaceful pastures, they went out of business. I uh I one time bought a ham from a Amish farmer that fed all the leftover yogurt to the hams from a dairy plant that was next door. Did it taste good? Smelled like yogurt. I'm sure.
+
+[23:10] Well that there, you know, the the you know pigs are interesting that way, right? The way that they incorporate things um into into their into their fat. But um, let's get the question first, then we'll go back to yeah. All right, so this I I called a while back about I tried to make nut milk from the spinz all right and tried running it slow continuous and to get the solids up, and it did the opposite of what I wanted it to. Yes, it totally clarified it, right?
+
+[23:34] It started filtering it. Right. So it started really nice and rich in the beginning, but by the end, as I recirculated it, it got thinner and thinner. Oh. And I have so yeah, I was just curious if you have any other thoughts.
+
+[23:46] So uh the way that I uh do the nut milks when I do them, and and honestly, like a lot of times for nut milks, nut milk bags they work pretty they work pretty well, right? And so, like um, you know, I haven't done that much on like heavy recirculation with uh with nut milks. I've done cold brew. I can get really I've like since I wrote the manual, uh my cold brew game, I don't like cold brews, so it's hard for me to come up with a good recipe, but like my cold brew game is getting much better in the in the spinzole, and someday I can give the spec for that or I can talk about that. But with nut milks, I think you're better off doing a single run with this caveat.
+
+[24:26] You want the you want the nut solids to be about the whole spinzall rotor's worth. Because what's gonna happen is all those solids are gonna stay in the rotor and you're gonna get out the liquids and the fines, and it's uh blended nuts with water don't form a compact enough puck for you to be able to get like a good um good kind of a separation. So usually what I'll do is I'll use like a very I'll use like 400 grams or five 450 grams of nuts, blend it with the hot water, and then take it through once. And the first stuff that comes out is kind of liquidy, usually in that case, and then it goes it goes nice and milky for a while, and then I cut it off. But I don't think I recirculate.
+
+[25:14] I have to go look at my go look at myself. I stopped experimenting with it. I should start again, but I stopped experimenting because I was like, would I recommend this necessarily over a nut milk bag? And my answer was if I owned a spinzall but didn't have a nut milk bag, I would make nut milk this way. But if I had a nut milk bag, I would probably use the nut milk bag.
+
+[25:35] Yeah. Um how about this? Like you, so I also want to try making the olive oil, and I would experiment, but I have four-year-old twins, and so my time is limited. Um, but like, so if I want to get the calamata olive oil off the top, right? You know, when the spinzall stops spinning, everything drops.
+
+[25:51] So would you like do it on ice so it solidifies? No, okay. So, first of all, Harold McGee thinks that you and I are enemies of quality because uh cured olive oil is the is the enemy to all lovers of uh fancy all olive oil judges would if they could press a button and wipe us off the face of the planet, they would do it. Um but the the way to do it is you blend the olives with um you blend the olives with uh Pectanex Ultra SPL, blend blend the hell out of them, and then uh you spin them, and you're gonna get uh you're gonna get a do you have a vacuum machine? Uh not a chamber.
+
+[26:33] Okay. But do you have a jar on on the vacuum machine? Okay. Yeah. Uh this is a a tip, by the way, that I don't know whether I've never published it, I don't think, but um anytime you're gonna do like uh distillation, rotary evaporation, or spinning uh batch where you're not gonna have like the the refiltering, so you're not gonna knock the air out of stuff.
+
+[26:55] A quick, first of all, the pectanex helps uh stop foaming if you're gonna do distillation. So nowadays, whenever I'm gonna do distillation and I'm blending stuff, I always hit my distillation runs with Pectanex Ultra SPL, not because I'm gonna clarify it, but because it gets a lot less foam out on the boil. So that's a little tip for all you rotovat people out there, if if there are any of you. Uh but then the the other uh thing is is that hitting any sort of blended stuff with a vac is gonna knock the air out of the floating particles. Because one of the issues is that olives are, as you say, a triple separation.
+
+[27:31] You're gonna have solids, liquids, and oil. Uh, but you're also gonna get floaty doodads. And the floaty doodads are what's gonna make it a pain to get your full yield of oil out because the floaty doodads are gonna mix with the oil. So if you can soak, uh if you can, sorry, hit hit it with a little bit of a vacuum just so that most of the solids drop uh and aren't floating at the surface, your life's gonna be a lot better. Then I would spin it for a long, long time.
+
+[27:58] You're gonna pour both the liquids, meaning the oil and the brine off of it, and you're just gonna have to let it separate old school. I mean, I think like a lot of us should have separate. I could do that. Yeah, that that's the way to do it. And then sit there and tap on it.
+
+[28:12] But any solids that are left in it because they were floating, stick to the sides of your sep funnel and like make it everything, make everything a pain in the ass. And use that olive oil right away because as Harold Nagy says, it's already it's already bad. It's already been oxidized. It's already he doesn't talk like that. But anyways, yeah, so good luck with that.
+
+[28:34] So back to the pig, back to the pigs. Yeah. Uh when you eat like uh when you eat it, do you like do you like eating nut fatters just for the hams? I mean the hams are like what I care about the most. I mean, obviously like in Spanish style, like the ibericos, like I love like all of the cured stuff, but do you really like lidding love love love just eating the pork that's that way?
+
+[28:57] I think you're losing a lot of the Yeah, I don't think you get as much flavor. I think people Yeah, like we we got half a pig that was that was uh he's not fed before. Right. And it it was delicious, but it like just using it as normal pork, it did not taste especially iberico y in any way. Yeah, God wants you to cure that.
+
+[29:16] I mean, I think the thing that's important to do. Yeah, I think the thing that's important though is you know, these ham these these pigs are on pasture, they're getting to choose what they want to eat, you know, and so I think they're gonna be selecting a diet that's gonna make more for a better tasting pig. I think some people too put too much confidence into the the exact diet of the pigs and less into like you know, diversity of diet and the animals choosing right, but the softness from the nut fat, like the like because there it's it's uh and I'm not saying this from a health standpoint because I could give a rat's behind about that. But it's like the like the the texture of the fat. That's why I think like a like you could never sell that to like Japanese.
+
+[29:59] Like you imagine like they love like a super hard fat, they're like want like a super saturated hard pig fat. They would be like, what is this garbage? You know what I mean? Oh, I bet they get a decent amount of Aberico hams. Oh, yeah, but that's yeah, but I mean, in other words, like if you were to sell them the fresh pork, yeah, they would be like, This is a this is a this is the garbage pig.
+
+[30:15] You know what I mean? Like it is, I mean, you're I think you're really right. It does have a real benefit for curing, but nothing for right. You know what I've never had, like uh I also think do you think Lardo's better off with a firmer fat pig? I mean I don't know.
+
+[30:34] I mean, most of the pigs we have have a softer fat just because they are eating more protein towards the end of their life cycle. But what size what size hands are you usually uh starting with when you're curing? Uh anywhere about 20, 25 pounds. So yeah, good size. Yeah.
+
+[30:49] Yeah, we got big pigs. And then how long how long you let them go? Yeah, Dave, what do you got? I was gonna say we gotta take a break real quick. Oh, take a break back with more cooking issues.
+
+[31:09] The Hearst family has been raising cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of California's central coast for over 150 years. Piedra Blanca Rancho in San Simeon is the original Hearst Ranch, founded by George Hearst in 1865. George's son was the famous publisher William Randolph Hearst. In addition to being known for building the iconic Hearst Castle, William was like his father before him, an avid rancher. In his words, I would rather spend a month at the ranch than any place in the world.
+
+[31:40] Thanks to one of the largest land conservation easements in California history, a joint effort with the California Rangeland Trust, the American Land Conservancy, and the state of California, the working landscape at Hearst Ranch will be preserved forever. Learn more about Hearst Ranch at Hearstranch.com. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is garbage.
+
+[32:08] This is garbage for anyone who's a longtime listener, will say, where the heck is the Hearst Ranch grass-fed beef song? That's a new ad. They didn't include the song this time. That's unacceptable. Take it up with Brian Kenny.
+
+[32:23] That's the do you have that song somewhere? Can I actually I don't even know what you're talking about? Oh, really? Yeah. Do we have it on the computer somewhere?
+
+[32:32] Can we find it? Yeah, maybe on a backup drive. I'll have to look for it. I mean, like, I'm happy that you know, they're sponsoring the show, but Hurst Ranch Don't Fed. Well, I mean, look, we have we have various people that I like for various things.
+
+[32:51] Like, I like it when that guy says abattoir. And I like the Hearst Ranch grass-fed beef song. I don't think I'm the only one. Play the hits, play the hits. I don't think I'm the only one.
+
+[33:01] Oh, speaking of uh longtime listeners, uh, Joel Gargano opened a restaurant in uh Chester, Connecticut. That I, if you guys are in the Connecticut area, go check it out. I haven't been there yet, but I hear great things. Grano Arso, which is a you know part, you know, cooked grain, uh, opened in Chester, just had his one-month anniversary, so shout out, and I hope to make it up there soon. I was in Chester, but there was a big snowstorm, so I couldn't.
+
+[33:23] I couldn't uh it wasn't actually a big snowstorm, but my driveway is very long, and so like the idea of going out and then driving back not knowing is like you know so I'm a I'm a bad person. I'm basically I'm just a useless bad bad human being. Well on one second we we have a call call we'll take the caller and then we'll talk about our caller you're on the air. Hey how's it going? Going all right I have another ham question.
+
+[33:46] I think it was already asked by the first caller but I couldn't quite make out what the answer was but I just got a whole bone in Benton's ham. Right. And my question is storage because it's like 15 pounds. I'm not gonna eat all of it right away but I could freeze it, I could refrigerate it, but is it safe just to keep at room temperature? Yeah what do you um what are you planning to how are you planning to use it?
+
+[34:09] Um I'm just gonna eat it, just slice it off like charcuterie style like prosciutto or something. Yeah I mean I think the only I mean I think pest is an issue if you're gonna just leave it out room temperature. I I mean Dave's idea of hanging it or every Spanish bar has you know loads of hanging ham. But you know I think in general refrigeration is probably a little bit easier just as far as containment and you know if there's a wide variation of temperature, you know you could see some rancidity in the fat. Something that people don't know the I know the the Bentons like the piece of paper that comes with it says to refrigerate it.
+
+[34:47] They have to hang them providers like Edwards say not to refrigerate it. Yeah so those hams have been sitting at room temperature more or less for you know nine months. So the going back into the refrigerator is only a step that they're saying because of food safety. Yeah, they don't want to deal with it. Some some inspector once said something and they don't want to have to deal with it.
+
+[35:10] Let me, but let me ask you this more to Johnny's question, how are you're gonna use it? Because I think one of the issues is let's say you buy an American style ham. American style hams are hung differently and have a different shape than uh European style ham. So they're they're uh typically, and I'm Benton's is to my knowledge is this way, is hung to be plump in the in the like in the cushion of the of the meat. And what that means is the interior of it is softer at a given age than in the equivalent longer stretched out European style ham.
+
+[35:48] And uh translation is is that if you try to put it into a holder and do the horizontal long slices that you would do for like a uh Spanish style ham cutting that you might run into some issues, Johnny, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I don't I mean it's gonna be fine. Yeah, yeah, everything's always fine. It's not gonna kill it anymore. But like it's just but you're not it's gonna be hard to get those like Yeah, it's a little wetter, yeah, a little wetter.
+
+[36:17] And slicing wise, but I don't know. We've we we hang it like that traditional the traditional American style, and you know, you see right at the bone that it's a little softer, but and do you do Spanish style cutting on it? Um we debone it. Yeah, and cross-cut it. Yeah, and cross-cut it.
+
+[36:33] So are are you a fan? Like, like, okay, for many years I was like, I'm an American, I like cross-cut ham. Yeah. And then, and then I was like, you know what? I like both.
+
+[36:43] I I like as I've aged, I've become less of a because at first I was like, don't let these traditional who are these people to tell me, you know, so what? Like, you know, they've been eating it for hundreds of years, but like each individual person hasn't been alive hundreds of years. What the hell do they know? You know what I mean? And so, like, you know, lots of people do things that are stupid for hundreds and hundreds of years.
+
+[37:02] But I actually now I've come to like the traditional like long cut. Yeah, I it definitely has its benefits. You know, you get it's it's I think it tastes a little bit nuttier, richer, and then you kind of get the like more salt intensity from the crosscut, and then the long ways, I don't know. So caller, what are you gonna do? You're gonna try to bone this out?
+
+[37:19] The only knife I've ever broken in my life, I broke on a ham. Um I don't know yet. That's a good question. So far I've just been slicing it with a bone in, I guess lengthwise. Yeah, I mean, if you slice off, yeah.
+
+[37:36] I mean, I guess like you could slice cross section to the bone for a while, and then that would be an easier way to debone it rather than trying to get in there and yeah, we definitely need to get some sort of uh boning knife, because I just have a Masono UX 10 and it's really, really uh thin. I don't think that would do the job. Man, the the Masono, the UX 10, that's an old school. That's your old old school high-end. I like that.
+
+[38:00] That's the old school like chef's choice there. Um yeah, I mean, we I just use that actually just a butcher little curved thin knife to do it, and then just like follow the bone and just like make the indentation and come keep coming down. You ever you you ever purchased one of those old school like like gouges, like boning knives that are for hams that are like look like like wood gouges? Yeah, to test it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:24] How do they work? I mean, you basically just push it in and turn, and then you take a core sample out. Is it well? They have, but if there's the core sample for testing, but they have to take, yeah. Yeah, they have like a giant one that's meant for to help remove the bone.
+
+[38:37] I've I've never seen one. I've never seen one. I've seen a video of one. I mean, you seem like you lose a lot of meat. Probably, but then I guess they sell the bone for soup or whatnot.
+
+[38:47] Yeah. I don't know. But yeah, I want the meat for eating. It's so it's so valuable. I want the meat for eating.
+
+[38:52] What are you a fan of cutting the cushion off and then and then take taking care of the face? Because the face is harder anyway, physically harder anyway. Yep. So, you know, I used to, whenever I was boning, I would try to bone it and you le I would leave the bone hole in it, I would have it whole. I don't know why.
+
+[39:06] It's just that's what I stupidly, I guess, thought was a thing to do. And then someone was like, well, why don't you just cut off this like set of muscles, slice that, and then slice all the parts separately. Are you a fan of that for I am a fan of that? It's just a lot easier to separate out the I mean separate out the basically the bottom round from like the sirloin. So you know what else makes life really easy?
+
+[39:27] Bansaw. Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah. So caller, like I'm not saying you should go buy a bandsaw, and I'm definitely not saying that you should go into your garage and use your wood bandsaw to cut your uh your ham. I will tell you this, it works, but uh uh uh or in a pinch of sawsaw.
+
+[39:49] Oh my god, Johnny, you're such a badass. That is an awesome recommendation. Use the because you can get a fresh blade. Yeah. Now the thing is, now here's the question.
+
+[39:59] Here's the question for you, right? So bones aren't very uh hard, right? And my problem with sawzole blades is the paint. So either you gotta get one that has that doesn't have paint. I don't know if they make unpainted saws all blades.
+
+[40:12] Yeah, yeah, we I've had them. Really? But if you don't, you can just burn the paint off because you don't need the temper. Yep. Because I mean, even an untempered steel sawzole blade is eight jillion times harder than the bone.
+
+[40:25] So you just friggin', like, you know, torch off the paint off of your cereizal. This is the smartest thing I've heard all day. You know what I wanted to do one one time? I wanted to buy a uh, so I I I've never really experimented with uh electric knives, like Queas Nart. You ever experiment with electric knives?
+
+[40:42] Uh use them a couple times, but not experimented. Yeah. So I've always wanted to experiment with the handheld band saws. You ever seen these? Like they make like small narrow throat.
+
+[40:51] You ever mess with those breaking animals down? No, but I mean just they have them cordless now. Oh, really? Yes. So you can walk around with a cordless, like small throat bandsaw and you can boof, boof, boof.
+
+[41:01] Have you ever experimented with the rotary wheel chicken cutters? No. You ever seen them? No. So if you go to the live poultry joints here, like the the person whose job it is to break down the chickens sits at a bench, and then they're given the plucked chicken after it comes out of the plucker.
+
+[41:17] And there's just this rotary knife, high spin spinning rotary knife, and they just grab the chicken. If you could see me, you'd see me holding the ascent of the chicken, and it's go, and just like that's it. The chicken just goes away. But there's all sorts of fabric cutting equipment that I thought would be awesome to task for meat. Been cutting.
+
+[41:36] Yeah. Yeah. Like for like large slabs and stuff, like just. But I've never had it. But the sawzall is my my new favorite concept of uh of use taking a sawzall to a ham.
+
+[41:49] Because the hardest part is where the joint is, right? To bone out. And if you could just knock that joint off with a sawzall, cut the face straight off and then rip the bone out. Yep. Yeah, definitely take off the head of the bone there.
+
+[42:00] Oh, don't you hate that? Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, you're a professional. Imagine, imagine if you're only doing like one or two a year, or even worse, like one or two every 10 years. Imagine what a pain in the pain in the behind that is to get that done.
+
+[42:14] Guys, I me tell you, if you've never done anything we said on the show ever, like boning, like like breaking a ham down with a see uh sawzole, that's it. That's that's the advice right there. Uh yeah. We got time for one more call. Oh, caller you're on the air.
+
+[42:30] And then I have one question again, because it's meat related. Caller, you're on the air. Uh hey Dave, uh, this is Jesse Kramer calling from Maker's Kitchen. How are you doing? Doing all right.
+
+[42:40] Um I'm finally I'm at the vegetti episodes. Uh, so you guys entertain me on my ride on my ride every day. Um don't go shoving things into your vegetti, it's bad. Go ahead. Um I'm calling in because I do uh remote cooking classes at clients' house, and um I've done the Michael Roman hot smoked duck ham at home, and I use a half hotel uh perforated, and after you brine the duck uh breath and then dry them out in the fridge, you cook them in the oven and try to get it to about one sixty feet.
+
+[43:20] And I was gonna try and redo the recipes so that I could use the circulator, uh hit the temperature with perfection, and then use a smoking gun. And I wasn't sure if that would hurt the end result or not. Johnny. So um so one thing that happens when you smoke something is if you smoke it with a heat source versus cold smoking, it's a pretty different flavor. And I think that the proteins react with the you know, the hotel p perforated hotel pan.
+
+[43:54] So you'll get a smoke flavor, but it will be it'll be subtle and it won't have like that any type of ham kind of flavor. Grab it. Yeah also sm like the smoking gun is also like what I like to call like a static smoke. It's like you apply smoke and then you walk away and then the smoke settles down. It's not the same.
+
+[44:12] I mean like so what are your thoughts for like let's for someone wants to do experimentation just getting like a a little chief or something like this. Yeah or just like you know take a tube and like s you know put an offset fire or just like give yourself enough heat and just do you know smoke it like you would over a fire. Are you what do you think about the old double hotel pan trick? It's hard to not get it too hot and have it get kind of acrid right? Yeah it's in I think I think that's right.
+
+[44:37] And then the you know the chips just burn off in a really awkward way. But I mean did you know that did you know that the internet is a series of tubes? It's a series of tubes. Uh anyway so so caller do you get you get it getting uh good suggestions here or no like what do you what do you think? Yeah yeah yeah I I was just trying to make it a little cleaner and and more travel friendly and I don't have to babysit it but um most of the things I feel like I it's gonna compromise uh the flavor.
+
+[45:04] M most of the smoking gun stuff is more like putting smoke into things so you can see it like for an actual like smoking something is like live smoke is very different from I don't know I I call it static smoke but I don't know like what you would I don't know I mean I would say just do like an offset Weber. You know you're gonna get yeah you know and that's gonna I mean do you think do you think that there's a way I mean I don't know if the circulator's the appropriate tool to get the internal temperature to what I want, but do you think that there's a way to uh use the circulator just to cook it to my exact temperature and then somehow um maybe put it in the oven with that perforated pan at a lower temperature but hot enough that the smoke might still penetrate? I mean, yeah, the circulators, I mean, I don't know, Johnny, you have your own, I mean, like you wouldn't I wouldn't want to do like a lot of it that way, maybe, but but for insurance purposes, circulator is always good for ensuring that you hit your internals, and then all you're worried about is the smoke flavor. You're not worried about cooking it anymore. So I think it's gonna be great.
+
+[46:10] Um, it's just gonna be different. Okay. The other problem, yeah. I mean, it's it's hard anyway, so you're not worried about the texture's not gonna be a problem. Part of the problem with cooking a duck too long is the texture, but that's on on mead rare rare, not on uh not on a hard cook.
+
+[46:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Uh then I'll stick to the uh the the tried and true method then. All right, cool. Hey, Dave, can I do one more quick thing?
+
+[46:34] No, there's a show coming in. Uh all right, so listen, I'm going to I'm going to answer Matt Hall had like he legitimately wrote in a question on sausage, and I'm gonna get maybe I'll record Johnny's answer and we'll just play it next time off my phone. Yeah. All right. I mean, feel free to contact me on any meat questions.
+
+[46:55] So I think Dave retweeted or tweeted out about uh my Twitter handle. So Johnny D. Hunter. All right, Matt Hall, I'm going to get this answered on my phone, and then we will somehow broadcast it next time. Next time, cooking issues.
+
+[47:17] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
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+[47:38] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
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+[48:02] Thanks for listening. Hi everyone, I have two questions related to sausage making. This is from Matt Hall. Uh I recently made a batch of roasted garlic sausage using a mix of pork tenderloin. It's all I had at the time, so no judgment.
+
+[48:44] No judgment. Uh, and back fat. The nominal fat concentration should have been in the range of 25 to 30 uh uh percent by weight. I salted the mix about one day in advance of grinding. Uh I froze my grinding equipment, the standard KitchenAid accessory, and kept the mix refrigerated until it was time to grind.
+
+[49:02] The resulting sausage had a slightly mealy texture. Could you comment on what might have gone wrong? I'm wondering if I underestimate the fat content of the tenderloin and or should have had slightly frozen the mix in advance of grinding. And two, thinking about the issues of the first question led me to consider historical sausage making. Everyone seems to stress keeping your equipment mixed and mix cold.
+
+[49:23] What did people do prior to modern cooling technology to achieve sausages with acceptable texture? Thanks for your advice, Matt. Uh okay. I would I would assume on the mealiness that the um the tenderloin is gonna be a problem there because it's too lean and it's gonna it's not gonna emulsify well with the with the fat. And um and so as it cuts through.
+
+[49:52] The other thing is is that no one ever has really good success with those kitchen aid. Yeah, they're just like inherently there's something about the uh there's something about the throat on them that is just like they they clog, they smear. Yeah, I mean it's just the the equipment, nothing is like tight and compact and it's all plastic and stuff, but they do make there is a third-party add-on for uh stainless steel all pieces, and that is great. I think that works as a really good sausage maker. So for real.
+
+[50:25] Yep. And is it just like a like a bigger, like a bigger like what do you think about the old Czechoslovakian guy, the hand crank like table mounted Czechoslovakian cask guy? Yeah, I mean, those again, I feel like the equipment like the the blades and the and the plates, they don't like fit up really close to each other, and you gotta keep those things really sharp and such. But I mean they can work, but it's still I see a lot of smearing when we use one. So, what do you think about historical sausage making?
+
+[50:53] Is it just because they were hand cutting in the fish? Yeah, I was gonna say hand cutting. Um he did mention something else about freezing in the meat or slightly freezing it, and that will cause it to be mealy too. Really? Yeah.
+
+[51:02] Because everyone recommends par freezing for kitchen aids or even par freezing for everyone freezes their their knives and everything. That's important. But the the uh issue with freezing the meat is that it's a you know, you're dehydrating, you're pulling moisture out of the protein, and so going back into the grind is gonna be problematic. What about the um post-grind, like doing the bind? Do you think that's also an issue?
+
+[51:28] Like uh do you buy I mean like we're gonna cure something, obviously that you need the bind, but like on a fresh sausage, do you worry about the bind too much? You sit in there doing a lot of manipulation afterwards with your hands? Uh normally it's it depends on like what the coarseness that you want is, but the easiest way to do it is just do two grinds. So uh this is leading into, and I hope the levels are okay, guys, because we're you know, I have no idea how to use this equipment. But this leads me into uh my favorite Johnny Hunter topic, which is what have you put through your meat grinder?
+
+[51:58] Yeah. Because you you put everything through your meat grinder. Meat grinder is a great piece of equipment that is can be utilized for all kinds of processing. And it is on industrial processing. They use auger systems with blades for all kinds of vegetable and cheese and things like that.
+
+[52:12] So give me some interesting ones that you might people might not. You've done masa in it, right? Yeah, so we make masa in it and you get a really nice masa. How many passes? Uh twice.
+
+[52:22] Fine plate? Fine plate, yeah. With blades. With blades. Always with blades.
+
+[52:26] Do you ever do anything without the blades? Uh I've never I've never been able to get it to really work without the blades. What about like like what's it like what about what happens when you try to put mashed potatoes through the nightmare? I've I've not put I would imagine that it'd get a gummy. Get gummy, yeah, it wouldn't be like what else do you think?
+
+[52:42] That's a lot of so I make hot sauce. Oh so like we put all the peppers through. And it's kind of nice because it filters out some of the seeds. And uh I mean we have like a grinder that does 110 pounds a minute. And so we ground we ground 600 pounds of peppers this year through that grinder.
+
+[53:00] And it's just like and fine plate, one grind. Fine plate, one grind, yeah. Yeah, you couldn't get a second plate, you couldn't get a second grind through it because it's becomes liquid. Well, how does it filter the seeds? Where do the seeds stay?
+
+[53:10] The seeds stay in the auger, so you have to like remove it all every couple passes. Can you use it like like uh like a tomato strainer for doing sauce? Yeah, so I do process tomatoes through a meat grinder as well. Does it hold back the skins? Because that's what sucks in the tomato sauce is the skins.
+
+[53:26] Will it hold any of the skins back? It does not, but my favorite way to do tomatoes to get the skins off is to freeze them. And then what? And then you just drop them into warm water and the skin comes right off. You like that better than the old school score and score and boil?
+
+[53:42] Yeah, that's I think that's a lot more libro intensive. Yeah, I've never tried it. I'll try that, that's a good tip. That is the way my grandmother made all of her tomato salads was she would score it, boil it and then take the skin off and serve. Yeah, uh I have to say that uh like uh texturally I understand why to remove the skins, but it was only after I started building the spinz all that I realized how bitter tomato skin is.
+
+[54:05] Because I started eating concentrated tomato skins because I would buy like, you know, I'd buy grape tomatoes because that's what they had that tasted okay to make tomato water and the tomato water is fine, but God, because it remember, the like a grape tomato has so much more skin. You know what I mean? And so like I would eat the the concentrated skins. I was like, this is terrible. This tastes terrible.
+
+[54:29] You know what I mean? So it was like a big shock to me that tomato skins are that bitter. And so now I'm like, yeah, you should take those things off. You know what I mean? Or use the old school like Yeah, hand nails and stuff.
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+[54:40] Yeah, we ever I've never actually I own one, but I've never made tomato sauce that way. You know, the big conical passer that I mean it's a meat grinder, basically. It's just the auger slash, it's a mechanical chicken deboner. You know what you should do is we should we should build you a uh like a cone to go over your meat grinder so that it just holds the skins back in the cone. I could totally build it.
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+[55:01] Because the the back pressure from the stuff coming out of the auger will stop it from going through. But like, I mean, if you send me the diameter, we can I'm sure I could run a test. I'm not sure whether it's food grade or not, but I can run a test. We can run a test. Okay, yeah, yeah.
+
+[55:15] That would be great. Yeah, I mean, I think that you know, if people had more uses for meat grinders, then they wouldn't have to use the shitty kitchen aid ones. What about if you do if you try to do alternative mosses like rye is really hard because it's gummy, really, really gummy? Will it get gummed up or is it okay? And here's I mean it's a little so we have an eczema and um and I we I did the rye one with you here.
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+[55:37] Um and I've done rye through the meat grinder. It's a little bit better because it's not quite, it's not the plates aren't as close and it's a sharper blade, so you do get a nice, you get a nice uh dough that comes out of it, and it's a little bit less of a pain in the ass to clean because you're not clean, you're cleaning stainless steel, not a rock. Right. What about uh nut butters versus a champion? Um well so the nut butters you need a little bit finer of a of a dye, so you get a pretty you get a pretty loose grind.
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+[56:09] Even with a couple of passes. You could do it twice, yeah, for sure. So one of the issues I have when you're gr you know how like when you grind nuts, if you add sugar to the mix before you grind, it seizes everything. Yep. Can a meat grinder handle that?
+
+[56:20] Yes, it won't seize. Yeah. It's a it's a better it's a better pass through than you know, a you know, than a kitchen aid or a 'cause that's a surefire way to destroy your Vitamix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like sugar and nuts is sure what I mean, like look in a food processor, everyone puts the sugar with the nuts just to stop it from oiling up, but they're not getting it to the point where it's good the it's gonna like gum up.
+
+[56:42] They're not actually releasing the the oil, but like if you put it through a serious grinder, like I don't uh I think I told you I almost burnt out my next magic. The smoke came out of the back of the unit because I sugared my mix when I was grinding nuts. Stupid. Um, I like to push stuff to the uh limit limit well. So what else what else in the uh in the uh meat grinder?
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+[57:04] In the meat grinder, uh I made verju. Oh yeah? Yeah. And it held the skins in the auger or no? Yeah.
+
+[57:10] And uh I mean I filtered too, but you know, we were able to keep most of the skins and the seeds out. Um I was pretty happy with that. Did it crack the sea? So in other words, like if you're using like uh one of my problems when I'm working with, let's say uh concor grapes or something like this is I always worry about crushing the seeds too much because then the bitterness and tannins and stuff. So do you if you use a c if you're using a coarser plate with grapes to get the initial crush, yeah, are you do you then find that you aren't ruptured that you're not getting as much tannin out?
+
+[57:42] You do get some tannin out, but I mean at some point it does the the seeds kind of create a barrier on the outside of the auger and then just the juices is coming in. So Right, because it can't be nearly as tannic as blending in a Vitaprep. Oh yeah, definitely way less. Yeah, because like you know what, well, like typically I hate working with them because what I'll do is I'll throw the enzyme in. Yeah.
+
+[58:03] And then I'll just hand I'll like smash it with my hands like sit there like just like you know smash the hell out of it with my hands. And it's like irritating if you have to do a lot of it. Yeah that's what's nice about a meat grinder is that you know with a lot of equipment you put something in you blend and then you have to pour it out. But a meat grinder you're just it's you know faster you you know continually do it. So um so what about cheese?
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+[58:27] You said cheese what happens to cheese in a meat grinder. Yeah like you know if I have to like shred a bunch of cheese and you know so you know instead of like using a vitamin uh a Roboku and I'll just like throw it through the Vitamix and so if you used a coarse plate do you think you can like one pass make rotel? No throw in the tomatoes the hatch and um does anyone not like Rotel Rotel's delicious amazing I love Rotel. I love queso. Yeah queso is delicious too uh we should talk about Oscar Meyer.
+
+[59:00] Oh yeah so uh and the other last thing you were telling me is that right near you in Madison tell me what happened. So we have an Oscar Meyer plant owned by Kraft they closed it um this year and uh I've been waiting for the auction because you know there's just equipment and I knew and I I knew people who worked at Oscar Meyer. I had been in the plant before um I'd never been in the plant I had been in the offices. So did you walk through and tag what you want about this yeah well there was 1400 pieces no 2100 pieces in the auction and uh it was a three-day auction and you know live? Live auction.
+
+[59:39] There was online too, but mostly live. And so like I have been to a lot of auctions. Like almost all the equipment that I own, I've purchased at restaurant restaurant grocery store. I like I prefer grocery store auctions. Why, because the restaurant dealers aren't there?
+
+[59:51] They're there, but you get the meat processing department there and you have your baking. Right. You know, like at a restaurant equipment, you maybe get like an oven or a fryer in it at a at a at a grocery store. They got like 14 ovens that go up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:00:03] Um, so I didn't know what to expect. They put the catalog on, we like kind of searched through it. You know, some of these meat grinders are like the size of you know, a room, and like they can handle something like 10,000 pounds an hour. Which is not our size. They feed employees, yeah.
+
+[1:00:22] Uh but you know, so we spent three days there, but one thing that I thought was really cool, um, is that there they, you know, Oscar Meyer have been doing sous vide for you know 40 years. Cause they yeah, because like they're industrial, they'll do whatever's best. Yeah, and they're so they had these vats that were the size of a dumpster, and they had all this mechanical um pumps to circulate the water, and then they had these like heating elements running along the bottom in order to like give it indirect heat to the water. And so you had basically, you know, sous vide was developed for industrial food way before it ever hit like you know, the restaurants or chefs or stuff. So it's pretty funny to see the size of the room that was.
+
+[1:01:09] Um they didn't auction that piece off, but there was some interesting pieces. Were you like 50 bucks? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but then you have to pull it out.
+
+[1:01:19] But I did get um, I got a bunch of carts and you know, these two thousand dollar carts, you know, 100 bucks each. Really? Yeah. You're familiar with the the old old story about the uh armor factory and the meat carts, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[1:01:31] Yeah, yeah. I had thousands of carts. Yeah, yeah. So like what like how many did you get? How much did they cost?
+
+[1:01:38] So they cost me a hundred bucks each. Right. I got f forty. Forty. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:42] That's a that's still like a good bit of money. Yeah. But I mean it would have cost me $80,000. If you were gonna go bur were you were you in the market for a hundred cars? These are these are exactly the cars that I needed to buy.
+
+[1:01:55] You should have just bought them and then sold them to other people. Going to like underground cart collective and just like sold cards to people. I haven't known to flip equipment for an auction. Why not? Yeah.
+
+[1:02:03] Like the fact of the matter is is that uh, you know, a lot of people don't have this the skill or the desire to like go cherry pick the good stuff out of an auction. I used to do it back when I was allowed to buy equipment. And uh there's an art to it. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:02:20] Like knowing which auctions to go to. You always size up your crew too, because you have your restaurant dealers and you get your scrap guys. Yeah. And you all and then you have like a couple people who are just like there to check it out. You know, there was like a bakery and you know, a couple other my mushroom farmer was there.
+
+[1:02:37] A couple farmers. And so yeah, you always see the strap guys and they go over to the piece of equipment, they kind of like lift it up just a little bit, and then they stop bidding at an exact price. They will not go above that. Yeah, yeah. And uh and then your restaurant dealers sometimes they're there just to mess with you, you know.
+
+[1:02:53] Well the restaurant guys like my in New York, restaurant, New York City restaurant auctions, it's like it's always the same group of folks, and it's like I if they thought they could sell it again, you can't you can't you can't beat them. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like you don't want to beat them. You know what I mean? Like, whereas if you get something that they don't want, then you can get it for free.
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+[1:03:18] We don't really get a lot of scrap guys here because I guess no one has a scrap truck. So it's it's more like uh you know, like the first fryer I ever bought wasn't a stainless kettle fryer, it was uh a plain steel kettle fryer, and literally nobody wanted it. Because like they they there's no resell on it, like all you only resell a stainless fryer. Yeah. And so I was like, yeah, like 25, 50 bucks, something like that.
+
+[1:03:44] You know what I mean? It's like, and that's how like I got everything. Like uh it was just a little too crappy for the restaurant folks, you know. It was a little because it's standard restaurant, uh restaurant procedure here is you buy the used equipment, you keep it out on the street, and you like power wash it down on the street, you take everything that looks crappy and you paint it with spray paint to make it look like metal, and then you wheel it and sell it. Yeah.
+
+[1:04:10] So like that's like you see them on the street constantly like washing the grime off of it and then spray painting it, you know. Well, I find with auctions that you can get your best deals if you just wait the longest. You know, just stay the last. Right. The last like hour.
+
+[1:04:26] Because it was so long. The auctions are so long. But you know the thing is like you have to have a truck because here in New York, it's like always like you have to take it out today. It's like you buy it today in cash today and you leave with it today. Yeah, you have to have the capabilities.
+
+[1:04:37] One of my favorite experiences, I've started going to uh vegetable auctions. Ooh, there's never bought food at an auction. Yeah, so there's an Amish vegetable auction in Wisconsin that I go to, and uh, you know, it's hilarious. I mean the produce is really nice, it's all locally grown, but then it's just like a bunch of people having really different needs bidding on you know, thousands of pounds of squash. And then you're like, if they don't need the squash, you're like, I have a meat grinder, I'll take it.
+
+[1:05:05] Alrighty, awesome. Well, uh Johnny, thanks. This has been the supplementary cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in good food for all. Learn more at Bob'sRedmill.com slash podcast. My name is Hannah Fordin. I'm the membership coordinator at Heritage Radio Network, but even before I joined the team, I loved listening to HRN during my subway commute. It made the time go quickly and left me feeling inspired for the day ahead.
+
+[0:26] HRN listeners tune in from all over the world. But there are a few traits that we all have in common, no matter where we listen from a curious palate, the fierceness to make a difference, and a hunger for lifelong learning about the culinary world. As you know, Heritage Radio Network is a listener-supported nonprofit. To deliver the most ambitious, entertaining, and of the moment stories in 2018, we need your help. We need to raise 150,000 by December 31st to accomplish these goals and to keep your favorite shows on the air.
+
+[1:03] Together, we can make this HRN's most exciting, impactful, and delicious year yet. Become a member by donating today. Join us at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate, and you'll immediately start enjoying benefits such as VIP invitations to HRN events, where you will mix and mingle with your favorite hosts. Memberships also make a perfect holiday gift for all the foodies in your life. This year, why not give the gift of food radio?
+
+[1:33] You'll hear your generosity and action for the year to come. Help keep our lights on and our mics hot by pledging your support today at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick, br br Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[2:08] How you doing, Stas? Good. You weren't here last week. Why? What were you doing?
+
+[2:11] Um I was Uh-huh. You gonna you're not allowed to think? No, no, I'm thinking. You uh your life goal, it was your life goal. My life goal was to feed Saturday Night Live, and I did.
+
+[2:24] Yeah, and uh you got you got Instagrammed out. You gotta check by Michael Che. Now, so you check out Michael Che's Instagram. And he became the first black writer in Saturday Night Live history to become head writer that same day. So big.
+
+[2:38] Yeah. So uh also if you want to see what Nastasia Lopez can do if she actually likes someone like Michael Che, you can check out Michael Che's Instagram and look for the pasta flyer thing like you know. You can be thoughtful sometimes. Yeah. And creative sometimes.
+
+[2:55] Sometimes. Yeah. So this is how it go. Uh I think it went well. I think it went well.
+
+[2:59] They liked it. You made a cocktail for them. I think it went well. I did. You were like Woohoo, he cheated.
+
+[3:05] What? You you cheated. I cheated. I did cheat. It's not a cheat.
+
+[3:08] You know what? I'm I'm all for this. Listen, peoples, peoples. Peoples. Listen, when you're making a cocktail and there's a flavor that you like, right?
+
+[3:15] Only maybe you're lazy, or maybe you don't have also they told us the day before. Yeah. And you don't have the time or what you know what's really good is like high quality if you don't mind the cook flavor, right? So the thing is that like a lot of the stuff that we do, we're trying to get like a super fresh flavor, and that's when we bust out like you know, centrifuges and you know, cold clarification techniques and all that kind of stuff. Uh you know, roto vap, if you want like cold reductions, like we remember when we used to do the port syrup cold?
+
+[3:43] Mm-hmm. That's the delicious uh, you know, for those kind of things. But if you don't mind a cooked flavor, jelly is delicious. And so you just hit jelly with pectinex, and then you jelly. What was that?
+
+[3:56] What was that? Uh what was that character on Rudolph who's full of jelly? Yeah. A water gun that squirts jelly. Remember that?
+
+[4:02] Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so uh so you take jelly. Always the root of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you take the well, it is the Christmas episode after all.
+
+[4:09] So you take the uh the jelly, you hit it with uh pectinx and um then you put it with uh uh liquor so that it's completely stable, and you can make these delicious jelly syrups. So we did that with Concord Grape because you know, we like a Concord Grape here cooking issues. What about you, Dave? Dave in the booth. I didn't say hello to you yet today.
+
+[4:30] Hi Dave. Yeah, I'm right here. No, I'm gonna go ahead. Yeah? What do you what are your thoughts on Concorde Grapes?
+
+[4:37] Uh ambivalently. Are you French? Do you like peanut butter? Well, yeah. I don't I don't often make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
+
+[4:46] No, but I mean, did you not grow up with that? Well, yeah, sure. Are you part of the allergy generation? You know, there's a whole generation of kids that don't know what it's like to be an American. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[4:57] I mean, seriously, like they grew up. I mean, like, I'm all for not having that stuff in schools if people are gonna if people are violently allergic now, which I guess they weren't in the 70s, or at least we didn't pay attention to them. Maybe I don't know what happened. Maybe they were there and we just we wiped them out because we were so well, we were so non caring in the 70s that we just didn't care about people, and so we just you know sprayed allergic people with peanut butter on uh I don't know. I don't really know.
+
+[5:20] I haven't thought about it. But point being that that uh you know, my kids' generation did not grow up in school on PB and J's, at least not in New York. Oh, really? Yeah. So like mercury poisoning action, like a lot of tuna fish?
+
+[5:35] Like, Jeremy Jeremy Pivin style. Remember when he went crazy and got arrested and said it was because he ate so much sushi that he had mercury poisoning? Yeah, vaguely. Sounds sounds suspect, but you know, so is his acting career. Well, now, yeah.
+
+[5:49] Well, uh, I love any kind of crazy like there's been like a number of insane food defenses over the years, and they've often been linked, well, of course, because you're it's a defense, right? Been linked to like horrible behavior, like uh in the what was it, 70s when Harvey Milk was uh murdered, and then they they the murderer, instead of just saying, I'm an evil, like hater, homophobe, was like I ate too many Twinkies. Remember that? It's called the Twinkie Defense. Literally it's called the Twinkie Defense.
+
+[6:16] And he blamed uh first of all, why would you like if you're gonna blame something? Does it have to be Twinkies? Like, you know, like our our favorite childhood sponge cake with cream filling? Does it have to be Twinkies? I mean, it it actually wasn't only Twinkies, it was just like uh I believe it was it's been a long time since I've researched this, but like I believe it was steroids and lots of sweets, and so they called it the Twinkie Defense.
+
+[6:40] Uh I don't think t Twinkies were actually specifically implicated. Yeah, it was probably more the steroids. Or Mel Gibson. What did Mel Gibson blame it on? The Jews?
+
+[6:53] No. Oh my god. How does he always? How does he Yeah, alcohol? That's different.
+
+[6:57] Alcohol, I mean, alcohol's been blamed since time memorial. Have you heard that song uh alcohol where it's all about uh anyway? Uh was that Brad Paisley sings alcohol? You don't listen to any sort of country at all. All right.
+
+[7:09] Uh all right, so calling your questions, uh food food music related or not, too. 7184972128. That's 7184972128. By the way, everybody's favorite punching bag. Peter unfortunately not here.
+
+[7:25] Peter the punching bag, Kim. Hey, listen, any if any of you people out there are uh game designers and are into what? Oh, not here? Yeah. Anyway, listen, seriously.
+
+[7:38] If any of you out there are game designers or rom hackers, you know what a rom hacker is, Nastasia? A ROM hacker is someone that takes old uh game ROMs and then hacks them. So if you guys, let's do that. So listen, here's what I want you guys to do. I want you to go get, don't do anything illegal, but go do something illegal.
+
+[7:56] Go get the ROM for punch out or for super punch out, and I want you to modify Glass Joe's sprites to make it into Peter Kim. I will say if anyone can do this out there, if anyone every time he gets hit, he has to make the sound that's on your phone. No, it's a body blow, body blow. But he's gonna go. Well, I don't know how they a lot of this sounds, I don't remember whether punch out is a sample-based sound or whether punch out is uh computer generated sound.
+
+[8:21] But anyway, anyone who's out there who's a rom hacker will know what I'm talking about. I will get you the correct images. I will get you the pixel art for Peter Kim in the various Glass Joe positions, and we can do a super punch out of of Kim. Peter Kim. And I think it would be it would be a great gift to him to have the super punch out version of Peter Kim.
+
+[8:44] Wouldn't that be amazing, Dave? Oh yeah. I mean, it'll be a great honor. I mean, I would love to have myself get the crappie out of me. I mean, look, you don't we don't have to make Peter into Glass Joe.
+
+[8:57] We can make Peter into like Mr. Sandman or any one of the characters there. But, you know, Glass Joe be I never beat that game. No? No, I couldn't beat Mike Tyson.
+
+[9:06] Really? Well, there's Mike Tyson's. But there's okay, so I I don't know, I guess that's true. There's the any there's the Nintendo version, but there's also the arcade version. I guess you could choose whatever's easiest to hack.
+
+[9:17] Oh, I never played it in the arcade. Whatever's easiest to hack. Uh arcade was interesting. The original punch out was our interesting because it was a dual monitor kind of a situation. Wait, how would you hack the arcade?
+
+[9:26] Don't you need to have the console in your possession to do it? Clearly you are not up on ROM hacking much. I guess not. You have a meme emulator and you have a the ROM, and it's it's easier to hack, I think, the the uh console stuff because more people have done console hacking. But you can't because another dream, someone has actually already done it, but my editors don't uh work.
+
+[9:48] I wanted to hack the editor, the uh Sprites for a game called Tapper, where it's like a bartender thing and put like my favorite bartender's faces. Yeah. I want to put my favorite bartender's faces in place of that person's face and then have like selectable like which ROM you open, and you could have, you know, you could have any bartender you want be the tapper. It'll be great. First of all, they need a female tapper, and then you know, swap out the dancing ladies for somebody else when you give them a tip.
+
+[10:13] Anyway, all good stuff. And bring a current. What? It's got current guys, come on. Yeah.
+
+[10:17] Anyway, so someone out there has to know how to do this. Anyway, Peter's on you. So Peter Kim is not here. He was supposed to come here and make a pitch for uh the museum. Instead, literally he's like, I have no time, because he's sitting there hitting refresh, waiting for you to donate to the Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[10:33] So he's sitting there constantly refreshing his email, waiting for donations coming in, and his refresh finger is so like, you know, so hurting that he, you know, couldn't come into the radio show today. He doesn't even want to go out for our Christmas party. Yeah, he well, by Christmas party, Nastasia means that Nastasi and I are gonna go out for drinks and pretend that we have a real company. I mean, true or false. True.
+
+[10:56] All right. Uh by the way, are we gonna get Karen on later or no? Do we have her so nobody's responded to me? All right, listen. Uh I will say this before I go in.
+
+[11:02] We had a question, a relatively in-depth question. Uh on it, she just emailed him. Oh, yeah? Is she does she have time? I don't know.
+
+[11:09] Well, you figure out, we'll talk about it later. Okay, so uh listen, you guys gotta pretend that I'm uh your favorite uh Mofad punching bag, Peter Kim. Body blow, body blow. Uh reading this. Actually, I'm supposed to pretend that I'm me reading this, right?
+
+[11:22] Yeah. Anyway, so the Museum of Food and Drink, this is actually serious business. Museum of uh Food and Drink desperately needs uh your funds for its continued operation. Um what's what's hilarious what's hilarious is is when he wrote this promo out for me to read and doesn't realize that you it's hard, believe it or not, folks, like it's hard to add like to combine ad libs from a promo in the middle of uh actually reading out the promo. So it's like if I could either just completely ad lib what I'm gonna tell you, or I could just read something, but the combination of reading something and an ad-libbing is relatively difficult to get it to come off properly.
+
+[12:01] You never notice that, Dave? Like where you're supposed to insert stuff. Yeah, like insert, you know, insert information here. Um I don't know. Most people seem to have a handle on it.
+
+[12:11] Yeah, well, not me. I'm more like, I'm more like, you know, what I when I do it, usually what I like to do is insert like uh a fake, a fake voice in the middle of it. Anyway, so listen, I'll I'll answer some questions. We'll do that towards the middle of the show, and I will just look over kind of what the points he wants me to get, and then I will just tell you guys something from the heart about the museum of Food and Drink. But I will say this donate you like what you're gonna want to do, regardless of whether you listen throughout this entire program or not, you're gonna wanna go um to uh donate.mofad.org.
+
+[12:40] Donate.mofad.org to help uh support the Museum of Food and Drink. And then I'll talk more about it. I'll give you the extended uh PSA later, maybe after we come out of the break. Um should we do a question first? Real quick?
+
+[12:51] Okay. Let's do it to a question. We're not gonna do the complicated brioche. Look, we tried to get in touch with uh emailing it to her now, but we tried to get in touch with uh uh Chef Karen at who used to teach bread at uh Bournemouth, who used to teach bread at the French Culinary Institute. Um and now she's at Hot Bread Kitchen and does education there.
+
+[13:10] So we had a question on brioche, um, and it was a really complicated, in-depth question, specific stuff on brioche, and as I told Nastasia this morning, uh Karen can like wake up and you know, and toot out some brioche, like no problem. I mean, like and by the way, interesting fact, you know, uh I like to say, you know, as has always been said, those who cannot teach do poorly. You know what I mean? Everyone's used to say, those who cannot do teach. This is crap.
+
+[13:39] If you actually teach something day in and day out, you learn so much more about what you're doing because people ask questions, people mess up in ways that you don't understand. So if you really want to ask a question about something like brioche, go ask a bread teacher who for years taught students like day after day how to make brioche and saw everything that could go wrong, go wrong with brioche, and that's how you figure out what's going on. The same way that like with low temperature cooking or any of that stuff that you know uh I used to teach on a daily basis, is just seeing people mess it up day after day after day makes you as a teacher so much better because A, you have to be able to explain to them how not to mess up, and B, you get to underse, really see how things get messed up over time. By the way, I'll say one thing before I get I'll do a question and then I'll say. But remind me, low temperature, I have something to say, okay?
+
+[14:32] What? Low temp, got it. Low temp, got it. Aaron wrote in and said, cold brew coffee on radio show, interested in hearing more. Well, Aaron, I wish I could help you out because here's why.
+
+[14:42] I mean, I know how to make cold brew coffee. I'm doing some interesting work on cold brew coffee uh in the spinzall, and I actually have some really interesting uh so Paul uh Adams, you know, friend of the show, and uh he promoted his kitten the last time he was on the day. Yeah, came on the air and promoted his his new kitten, right? Which is interesting. I mean, I like the fact that you know he feels like he has to promote something, come on.
+
+[15:04] He's he is our um resident cold brew expert. And so occasionally he will come to me and say, Can we do this or that with cold brew? My problem is it's hard for me to develop stuff without Paul because I don't like cold brew coffee, and so I can't judge whether or not I have done a good job or a bad job on the cold brew coffee because I don't enjoy it. And I don't even think Nastasi enjoys it. No, I don't.
+
+[15:27] So uh I like Dave. What? What kind of coffee do I have? Oh, Nastasia likes the like the crappiest coffee in the world. Like if you any street corner.
+
+[15:34] Oh, I remember this episode. This was the greatest hit. Any street, any street corner that has some sort of quilted stainless and uh and like yellowed acrylic window box where the coffee was brewed like in the last century, sometime, and has been sitting in a pot moldering and turning to garbage, and is then poured into a substandard paper cup that excoriates your tongue and makes you realize that you're a crappy New Yorker, and then has plastic that cuts your lips. Yeah. And that is the kind of coffee that she likes.
+
+[16:07] That's what she enjoys. Right? And she enjoys it because, like my grandpa, right? Like my crazy dead racist grandpa. Like, she likes to like crappy stuff on purpose just to piss off people that care.
+
+[16:23] That is not true, Dave. There's no other thing. This was where the conversation diverged last time as well. Yeah. The intent behind it.
+
+[16:31] Is that the kid from Stranger Things? Wait, what? It's not the kid from Stranger Things. See that kid sitting right there? No.
+
+[16:38] With the bowl haircut? No. Which one? No. The lead kid?
+
+[16:43] I don't want to. Why don't we just make it up? Why do you make it up? Hey, is that uh is that David Hasselhoff sitting there in the corner? No.
+
+[16:49] Is that the flannel? That's an Asian man. What? I mean, this kid looks nothing like the guy from Stranger. That kid in the flannel.
+
+[16:54] Yes, he looks nothing like the kid. He has a kid in flannel. Nastancia, you're really going over the edge here. Anyway. She's seeing stars everywhere now.
+
+[17:03] Right. So, anyway, so back to Cold Brew. Aaron, what I'm gonna do in the in the new year, I have to say this. Uh, Paul Adams is getting on my case to design a standalone cold brew uh brewer in the 200 range that can make cold brew in under 20 minutes with good extraction. And the short answer is yes, I can do it.
+
+[17:27] I've figured it out. But the long answer is is I haven't mocked up a working prototype, and then I would have to actually talk to Nastasia and see whether she wants to get into the business of selling said piece of equipment, and then I would have to go. I will do that if you build the wine zombie. The wine zombie is a different that's a different thing. Hold up, what's a wine zombie?
+
+[17:47] What's a what the hell? What do you mean what's a wine zombie? Where have you been? It is the it is the piece of equipment that most people would want that Dave will not get behind. It's the piece of equipment that Nastasia Lopez and Piper Christensen designed and built on Booker and Dax time and water.
+
+[18:02] So therefore, Booker and Dax owns it. So why doesn't Booker and Dax build it? Because it is not part of the it's not in the ow. Wait, so what is of Booker and Dax style equipment? A wine zombie slash wine Santa Slash wine football player, whatever you want.
+
+[18:20] Is a mannequin that shoots uh alcoholic beverage, chilled or warm, depending on how you want it, out of its mouth into a punch bowl, and it can be made to look like it's vomiting. So in the zombie case, it's more of a vomit. And then uh the final iteration, Nastasia had one that was uh had a motion sensor and a uh voice recorder on it such that Santa would say things to you when you walked up to it. It would Santa would say things to you like too much eggnog and then it was like he was throwing up wine. It was like vomiting Kermit.
+
+[18:56] Yeah, see, isn't that a good idea, David? No, no. Yeah, sounds great. You how much would you pay for this? How much would you pay for it?
+
+[19:03] Life size mannequin. Oh, life size? Life size. Oh well. Yeah, I by the way, Dave.
+
+[19:10] Live in a Brooklyn apartment. I'll give you well, no, you rented for parties. Here's the thing. It's it's freestanding, right? So b you know how like the old joke is that guy's got a wooden leg.
+
+[19:20] Oh, where does he put all that? You know what I mean? Like because he's not getting drunk and he's drinking all the stuff, you know what I'm saying? So, like, this like Santa literally has let's say it's like more of a plastic leg. It's like filled with liquor, and then it just like circulates it up with a s with a pump and then like goes down and and the uh and don't give away the the IP.
+
+[19:38] Oh, I think people can figure out how to put a tube in the bottom of a bowl and run it down Santa's sleeve into his boot. I feel like this thing would kill it on the startup party circuit. Like all those all the bro dudes would be wearing it for their parties. Well, remember, remember Booker and Dax is we are the trailing edge technology. The thing that could fall off the airplane and it flies just fine.
+
+[20:01] They notice like three fights later that the thing fell off. Oh man. Remember that blinking light. What that what was that for? I don't know.
+
+[20:08] It fell off the plane, like, you know, a week ago. Yeah, it can't be that important. Yeah, it can't be that important. And then Dave's there, like, eh, but it made it five percent better, guys. Uh pound.
+
+[20:20] Uh so anyway, yeah, that's that's my life. That's how it's cut. Are you gonna take a call? Yeah, sure. Call her, you're on the air.
+
+[20:27] Uh hey guys, this is uh Will in Chicago. How you doing? I'm doing well, how you guys doing? Alright. Uh and just uh first off for the survey, uh I'm 30-year-old man, married, my wife loves kitchen gadgets, I'm a serizol and spin ball owner.
+
+[20:42] Love it. Uh bartender. So love it. So uh I actually have a thin ball coffee related question. Uh-huh.
+
+[20:49] Not to belabor the dead horse here at all, but um I'm gonna be making uh a batch of uh oats out uh with my brew buddy today. Uh we're gonna get started probably right after the show. And uh we want to turn it into a coffee stout. And I think that the stinzall is an excellent application for this. Uh I was wondering it's like um you could just give me a little bit of a cup around maybe what you've done, or I also was thinking about maybe using the malt to extract the coffee.
+
+[21:14] But I just wanted to run it by you before we did anything. Sure. So I've done more recent uh coffee experiments since I've uh did the since I did the manual. Uh in the manual, I think I used like a like a relatively uh fine grind. The issue on espresso, right?
+
+[21:37] Yeah, but uh recently I've actually been using, and I think it's probably better, uh coarser grinds. Um because I think I'm getting better kind of forced percolation results through the the coarser grinds. And so uh what I've been doing is and it's just I've you know made it I think simpler on myself, is uh you know, I pre-moisten the the trick is you cannot pump grounds, like period. You cannot pump coffee grounds. Um so what I've been doing is uh mixing it, putting it into the uh into the thing, spinning it up.
+
+[22:10] Now the trouble with the the spinzall, especially if if there's any sort of vibration with it, is just getting it to start up. So sometimes people have had issues with it going into into flashing mode with coffee grounds, uh because uh if it doesn't spin up fast enough, uh it doesn't settle out fast enough and go into flashing mode, and so sometimes people have had trouble where they need to do it a bunch of times to get it to go. But once it goes, once it's going, uh and I hope to fix that problem. Once it's going, then I would just recirculate uh the just recirculate the water through it and just walk away from it and let it recirculate. And I was able to get it on recirculation.
+
+[22:49] I was able to get the TDS, I forget, I forget what the correct numbers were, but I got it into the range of a regular concentrate just by doing it on research mode, and I got to do it kind of relatively relatively quickly. And so it was it and it ended up uh working well. Keep the extender tubes on it, because the idea here is you're trying to force the water to the inside of the rotor and then have it percolate under pressure up through the up through the grounds. Um the issue with the spinzall and the cold brew coffee and where it can be improved is that if you were to stop the unit in the middle of uh circulation and look at the grounds, you would notice that some of the grounds are more heavily percolated than others because where the tubes are, it had it's like preferential to have the stuff percolate through there. And so you know, one of the things I'm considering doing is making a um like a forced percolation attachment or uh for the for the unit.
+
+[23:46] Uh that but again that would be sometime next year, or just doing a standalone cold brew thing. But those are the basic tips that I have for it if that makes sense. Okay, and uh just uh what do you think about using the wart to do the extraction? Good idea, bad idea, or useless. Uh I mean stickier.
+
+[24:08] Definitely stickier. Yeah, the th the issue is this, right? So um your extract as you know, as a brewer, your extraction uh like your extraction medium, right, has more profound influence over what you extract than you would imagine, right? So uh I would say that you know the coffee might strip something, for you never know, like something's going to adsorb onto the coffee out of the wort. So, you know, definitely you'll lose probably only a tiny bit of sugar.
+
+[24:40] I mean, it depends on how much you're gonna do, you know what I mean? It might work, it might be, it might be delicious. I mean, I would just I would make some extra and and test it. You know what I'm saying? Remember though, the advantage of cold brew for this over other things is that the idea being of cold brew, I guess, is that it is more stable because it doesn't like the cold extracted stuff doesn't um self-autolize as much as the uh as the hot brew stuff.
+
+[25:03] I mean, I guess theoretically that's why. Yeah, yeah. Well, the good news with the, as long as you don't um overpump it, it's is that is the spinzall is so much better than um regular filtration at it's like a zero fines, zero fines, especially if you're using the coarser ground stuff, zero fines. Uh so I would try it with uh I would try it with wort and see what what's going on and and please, you know, shoot me back at cooking issues and let me know whether or not uh you had success with it or not. Yeah, I mean, the nice thing about the spinz all, I'm gonna do a couple test patches, so I'll uh I'll keep track of my results and I'll let you know.
+
+[25:43] Alright, cool. Let us know. Yeah, thanks for your help. All right, cool. Um, all right.
+
+[25:48] So where are we by the way? Do we should do we need to take a break or are we how are we doing? Dave. Yeah, let's take a quick break. Alright, cool.
+
+[25:58] Come right back with more cooking issues. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mill is it's the only that I know of national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's red mill became widely available you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's red mill and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with.
+
+[26:47] Learn more at Bob's red mill dot com slash podcast. And we are back. So uh we have uh Chef Karen from Hot Bread Kitchen on the phone. How are you doing? I'm good Dave how are you?
+
+[27:03] Doing well hey and since we love hot bread kitchen you want to explain a little bit what it is to people? Sure. Um we are a bakery in East Harlem but we're actually a nonprofit organization and we make and sell bread so that we can provide on the job training to women who face barriers to employment. We train women from all around the world and they spent time um working in our bakery. We pay them a wage and um this the sale of our bread supports all these efforts.
+
+[27:29] So if you can look for us in green markets and buy our breads and your purchases will support training for a woman to go through our program and get a great job in the industry. Yeah but beyond that also I mean like that's great and I love helping people but the bread's really good. I mean that's the other thing. The bread is really good. The red is really good and you're gonna find bread promotes that you just don't find anywhere else.
+
+[27:50] Our Moroccan M Temen is this really unusual flatbread which I don't think you can find anywhere else in New York. We make these great Persian breads and nani candy which is also sort of a flatbread with honey and butter and a nani barberry, and we also make tortillas. We do a true Nix the mall tortilla. And I don't think there are too many people in the city doing that. So they make great tortillas with organic non-GMO corn with the real mixed mall process.
+
+[28:15] Who do you use? Do you like uh do you deal with the La Tienda people for uh for uh who do you deal with? Who do you get where do you get the corn from? You know, we're going through um through the green markets for some of it because some of it is local. Um, but I'm not entirely sure who who we're getting the other two from.
+
+[28:35] One of the three we're using is local. We have blue, white, and yellow. Um, and we're going through the green markets for the local corn. And I'm not positive who we're going through for the others. And I know you don't do it anymore, but you guys used to make the only uh all Teff injira that you could get in New York.
+
+[28:49] I know, and we've been talking about trying to bring that back. We've had a couple Ethiopian bakers through our program recently, and they've both been amazing in Jira makers. So we're trying to figure out how we can scale that up and get that back into the markets. Yeah, so it's one of these rare kind of situations where the product quality is really high and you're doing something and interesting, by the way, as Karen says, there are breads that they make that you just simply don't see or can't get, and these folks do a great job and are doing something great at the same time. So definitely something worthy of worthy of your uh support, uh, if simply just by buying their product, you should keep a lookout for hot bread kitchen.
+
+[29:27] Okay. So thank you so much. Hey, no problem. Uh and so we know each other from the French Culinary Institute. I still refuse to call it the ICC or whatever the hell they call it nowadays, French Culinary Institute.
+
+[29:38] Uh, where you were the uh bread teacher, and uh we had a question in from Josh Galliana, which is too mean too long to go into not at all. Yeah, you yeah, we emailed it to you, but it's like it would take the entire rest of the thing to read. I didn't I that's why I couldn't call you back too quickly because I was trying to read through all of the very dense information in his email. Right. So the the the short the short of it is is they used to have a a good quality brioche.
+
+[30:05] Uh they moved to a new location. They're using uh actually like high quality ovens uh now, but they're having a problem with the kind of wrinkling on their brioche and crust uh separation, I guess on on reheat or retoast because they're uh it sounds like they're doing it commercially and then selling to places like hamburger joints. Yeah, it's funny that I just have to tell you that I actually already knew about this guy in this problem because an equipment guy that I know referred him to me for a a consulting job. So I may not have the consulting job, I may be able to give him the answer uh through the radio. But this is how small the bread world is.
+
+[30:41] Right, but you should pay Karen by the way about Josh and his brioche problem. Josh, Josh, you should pay Karen for this answer anyway. Well, if it if it works, I mean there's a there's a lot of information here, but my initial reaction any time I hear about crust separation, it suggests to me that the bread is overproof. And so I think that his he says that he thinks that the issue is with the proof, or I think he might be right. I don't think it necessarily has to do with the temperature, the humidity, but I think something is changing, and he might think about just underproofing it a little bit, proofing it a little bit less than usual.
+
+[31:16] As a test to see whether it helps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's also he's changed so many different things, and I and I assume he's sort of making one change at a time, but if he's not, I would definitely recommend that he do that because you know too many changes you can never identify where the solution is if you get to it or or where the real problem is.
+
+[31:37] Um she's changed his formula, he's changed his ovens, he's changed his group around the whole thing. Right, everything's changed. I mean, uh, you know, like it'sue is, yeah, I mean that that's the thing is being able to trace kind of what happened and and the that's why keeping records is so important and also just focusing on every aspect of what you do is so important. You know the famous uh, I think it was Armor, the famous sausage story where they moved. You know that story?
+
+[32:03] Have I told this one on air, Dave? Uh not sure. There's a famous story, I believe it's Armour Sausage, where they had a new factory and all of a sudden the sausage didn't taste right anymore, and nobody liked the sausage that they were making. And they tried to look and they looked at every process they were doing, and it turns out they had um in the old factory, they had to wheel the uh batter, the sausage batter, all the way across the factory, like a huge factory floor. It took a long time to get the batter from the uh mixing stage to the stuffing stage.
+
+[32:36] And during that time it underwent uh heat slash whatever bacteria related change, right? Uh and it was that step that that that step that removing that step, because in the new factory it went directly from the mixer to the um to the extruder, like removing that step changed the changed the complete flavor profile of the sausage. So yeah. In production stuff like that in bread all the time. Yeah, because every step in bread, look, you only got like a couple, brioche has more ingredients, but you only got a couple of ingredients, so every step makes a huge difference.
+
+[33:12] Definitely. And temperature, I mean, whether you load the pan at the top of the rack or the bottom of the rack can make a big difference in the way the dough behaves. Because it could be two degrees cooler at the bottom of the rack than it is at the top. And I think that people underestimate these, these uh the impact of those small changes. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[33:29] Yeah, so definitely look one one step at a time. And you say try the proof or first, just proof it for less, don't change the variables, just proof it for less time. Yeah. I mean, I don't think he says in this email how much yeast he's using, so it's hard for me to sort of estimate how long the proof should be, but he's got a pretty good amount of fermentation on the dough, especially if he has the sponge too. Um and adding that on top of the one and a half hours in the final fermentation.
+
+[33:55] Maybe he wants once to cut that down by 30 minutes or 15 minutes even and start there. But that's always my first reaction when I hear about crust separation in any bread. Well, it's so it's interesting because I think uh proofing time is kind of the least one of the least well understood uh aspects of what the heck's going on with bread, right? Overproofed, underproofed. Um why is that?
+
+[34:21] Is it just because you're like, well, it's gonna expand anyway, so what does it really matter if it's overproof or is it I mean, like is it like what is it? Like why is that the Yeah, I mean, because proofing is not just about um the yeast activity, it's also about the gluten development and formation. And if it's sort of reached its limit, you know, you have these kind of two tracks. You have the dough development and then you have the yeast activity, and you want them to happen at the same pace. And if one sort of pulls ahead of the other, you know, the dough is reached its maximum sort of development stage, but it's still proofing, that's when the gluten structure starts to break down and you can see weird stuff happening to the crumb or the crust.
+
+[35:00] So and again, so many every point of the process can make a difference in that. Maybe they're even over mixing it. That's possible too. Right. All right.
+
+[35:09] Well, anyway, uh, so hopefully, uh, you know, hopefully uh Josh will try this out. Hopefully, Josh will, you know, somehow, you know, reimburse you for your uh excellent advice. And Karen, by the way, always uh always a badass with the baking, and please uh I don't can people can't can people just people can't stop by your bakery, right? They have to go to the green market. Which days are you guys there?
+
+[35:32] Oh, we're you know, you can look at our website. We're at many different green markets throughout the city, I think at least 12 different green markets, so you can find one that's close to you and find out what days were there. Um, but our production facility is in East Harlem in a building called La Marqueta, and we operate a little storefront up here, and people can walk to the back and see our bakers in action. All right. All right, well, thanks so much.
+
+[35:55] Uh support hot bread kitchen and thanks for calling in. Nice talking to you, Dave. All right. Bye bye. Bye-bye.
+
+[36:01] Tell them about the Amazon email. Oh, yeah. So we had a, I forget who it was, but it was one of one of uh, you know, one of our friends on Twitter was like, all they said was Google Jeff Bezos question mark email. And so we did. It turns out that if you by the way, this is about the fact that that Sears all's uh, you know, for some reason Amazon, even though they have thousands of them, like can't manage to sell them properly, uh and it's like killing us.
+
+[36:29] We just got another email in today. I don't know if you saw it. Are you responding to these emails? It's Matthew. Yeah, uh, about Sears all's not being in stock on Amazon.
+
+[36:36] So it turns out that if you email Jeff Bezos uh personally, and somehow it like I guess a certain number of them, he probably has an algorithm to look at it. And I use the word algorithm. Nastasia sent an email to Jeff Bezos saying, your algorithm sucks and is ruining our business. Yes. And and we got a Jeff Bezos question mark email.
+
+[36:59] So what happens is Jeff Bezos then just forwards your email to one of his uh you know lackeys with just a question mark. Like, what the you know what I mean? And so like, and apparently, if if Jeff Bezos forwards your email to one of his folks with a question mark on it, everyone runs around like a decapitated. So I got an email from one of these people that said, uh, I got this email from Jeff Bezos, and we want to help you. And I was like, yes.
+
+[37:27] So people, we are on it in the worst possible way. Another email from them saying we're still looking into it. Well, I mean, like, Amazon cares that we're sitting here insulting their algorithms. Like that's like that's hurting their feelings somehow. Yeah.
+
+[37:43] Uh all right, so are you gonna do this? Oh, yeah. Okay. So back to the Museum of Food and Drink. This is the last money pitch uh of the of the year for us because we're not back until when.
+
+[37:55] You're shut down until when, Dave. It's the week of January 14th, so that would be what, the 17th? Is that Tuesday, I think? Wow. Wow.
+
+[38:02] No. No, I'm sorry, 16th. That's after my kid's birthday. Yeah, wow. All right.
+
+[38:08] So we're we're gone for a long time, people. You'll have to ask your questions on uh No, just wait. Okay, just wait. Just wait, have a little self-control. All right.
+
+[38:20] So, uh, as you guys know, the Museum of Food and Drink is incredibly important to me. I mean, I came up with the idea. I mean, it's uh I I like to say this when I'm at events, but uh, you know, my desire is that on my deathbed, it I will say, you know how like uh uh what's his name? What's his name? What's his name?
+
+[38:41] Hemings. What's his name? President of the United States. Farm, Virginia. The hell.
+
+[38:46] Uh Thomas Jefferson. With Thomas Jefferson was like Hemings is the first. Well, my point is is that like uh Thomas Jefferson was like, my proudest achievement is UVA. Like for me, it's like what I want to say is like the thing that I want to look back and say that I did was the Museum of Food and Dream. He did not, he did not do the nickel himself.
+
+[39:06] Yeah. Anyway, the Museum of Food and Drink will have been the most important thing I worked on because it's a way for us to take something that we all love. Um, food and drink, obviously. You know, some of you do it professionally, we all we all eat it, and to try to create something that isn't just for uh, you know, the wealthy people that can afford $14 cocktails or can afford to go to the French Culinary Institute or can afford to go to one of the restaurants we work at or to buy fancy food, but really to focus on um the community aspects of food on what it means to break bread with someone, what it means to understand another person, another culture, another time through food. Um and so we rely, and by the way, the museum is in kind of a we're in a we're in a tight financial place right now.
+
+[39:50] We're still a startup, even though we have the lab, the lab is not really uh, it's more of a test bed. It's not, we're not a full-running, sustainable museum yet. We need your support. So uh we rely like very much so on donor support to run the museum and to stay independent, we don't take money from uh big food and haven't taken money from big food uh because we want to appear to we want to be and also appear to be um straight shooters. Uh so please consider Mofad in your charitable giving this year, especially because this might be the last year you can ever deduct it off your taxes.
+
+[40:24] Um it's mean a lot to me. It would mean a lot to the people who come to uh use our programs and to the future of the museum. So please go to donat donate.mofad.org. That's donate.mofadfad.org. Every little bit uh helps, and you can become a supporter of the museum.
+
+[40:43] Um back to uh the show here for for a minute. So I I probably shouldn't tell this because it's one of the things that's going to be in my book on low temperature cooking, coming back to low temperature cooking. But for all of you that have put up with like all of the crazy rants and raves over the years on cooking issues and have just been for some reason you've been tuning in for some actual tip that could help you cook better. I'm about to give you that tip. All right, so here it is.
+
+[41:16] Uh whenever someone says, How should I cook X, Y, or Z? God says, but I invented the deep fat fryer. I knew you were gonna say that. Right? And then when whenever you're like, but God, my oil, it goes bad for centuries.
+
+[41:32] God's like, I invented the tube fryer with a cold zone, right? So basic basically anything can be cooked, almost anything can be cooked to perfection using deep frying, right? And not least of these is low temperature cooked uh meats. Um they're very good, very good finished deep fat fried because I mean it's obvious to anyone who has taste buds and a brain that what you want to do is put maximum heat energy input into the entire surface uh and ain't nothing better than deep frying to do that. Uh it's easy, it's quick, uh, it's repeatable.
+
+[42:09] These are all things uh that everyone uh everyone likes. Everyone likes things that are quick, easy, and repeatable. Uh doesn't create a lot of smoke, does create smelly oil, but it doesn't create a lot of smoke, so it's not gonna set off smoke detectors. The problem is is that um foods with batters like French fries, uh well, they're not batters, what's wrong with me? Uh but like things that uh are meant to be fried that are oil absorbent, like French fries, like potato chips, like fried chicken, like donuts, we all expect to have a certain amount of a fry taste.
+
+[42:42] Instead of like wake, it's like fry hay, you know what I mean? Because it's like it's like that like essence of the fact that it's been deep fried, right? And uh the problem is is that even though uh a steak won't absorb fat, there still remains some fat on the outside. And to be honest, there is unless your oil is brand spanking new, and if it if it is, brand spanking new oil, by the way, as everybody knows, as everybody knows who knows anything, brand new oil is no good because you need to you need to break the oil down a slight bit for it to have really good heat transfer characteristics. Because if it's completely non-polar, it can't in the molecular sense touch your food.
+
+[43:20] So it needs to have a little bit of breakdown. Anyways, uh back to the story. So there's always a little bit of uh fry oil clinging to the outside of your meat, and it has an off-putting aroma that people don't enjoy, and some people are more sensitive to it to others. So even if you can't sense it, and this is by the way, going back to teaching for a minute, uh one of the things you learn when you teach, or if you run a restaurant and you actually listen to your customers, is that just because you like something, or because you can't sense an off uh flavor in something, doesn't mean that other people can't sense it. Because all of our equipment, our noses, our palates, our tongues, our brains are all a little bit different.
+
+[43:59] And so uh, I'll just tell you that even if you can't sense this on the outside of uh a piece of meat, there's a lot of people that can. And uh, so here is the solution for you. Go make like go. This is like I did a test, I've done a couple of tests now on it, and this thing works like a charm. Make some broth, right?
+
+[44:21] So if you're doing steak, you can use uh beef broth, but I've actually just used chicken broth. I've used uh I've used a bunch of different broths, and it really doesn't seem to matter much what broth you use, but get like a container and keep it hot, right? Then after you deep fry it, now if you're gonna do it only once, you don't need to even get complicated with it. You can just use like a quart container or a lay ladle or something. But if you're gonna use it again and again, get a sauce gun, which is you know one of those depositing funnel things that are amazing.
+
+[44:49] I love my sauce gun. Or if you're just doing it at home, get a uh uh gravy separator with it. Basically, a gravy separator is a small pitcher that pours from the bottom. And the the reason why is that grease floats. So you take a strongly flavored broth, hot, and then as soon as you pull it out of the deep fryer, you you hold it up and you pour hot broth over the steak, flip it, pour hot broth over the other side of the steak or the chicken, or whatever it is your or fry.
+
+[45:19] Well, you wouldn't really do this for chicken, but anyway, right? It's not an it's not there long enough, it's right when you pull it out. It's not going to hurt the crust at all. It will not hurt the crust. And what happens is is that when you recollect the broth, the fat floats to the top.
+
+[45:35] And so because you're pouring from the bottom, you can use the broth again and again and again to wash the the uh fat uh the deep fry flavor off the surface of your meat. And it's a win-win-win-win-win. So you can sit there and bust stuff out of your deep fryer like all day and all night, and you're not going to have anyone, no one, absolutely no one could detect that I had fried uh these pieces of meat, and I did it with substandard oil. I I I used oil that was over the edge to see whether or not I could get rid of the uh aroma off of the meat when I did it, and lo and behold, you can. So, one of the things, if you really want to use deep frying as a finishing technique because of its inherent positive uh characteristics, but you're worried about that aroma, just get you some broth.
+
+[46:22] And this goes back to remember, were you there when we did the hot dog juice? No, I was not. Yeah, when we ran out and got it. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[46:28] So, like one of the things I learned a long time ago was that people worry a lot about like, isn't the flavor gonna get diluted by the liquid? No, because you're gonna use an extremely flavorful liquid. So, you know, it's not you're not leaching anything out. Like, if anything, it's like a one-to-one trade. And I learned this most importantly when I went out and bought a cup of New York filthy hot dog water and drank it, and that stuff tasted more like hot dogs than the hot dogs did themselves.
+
+[46:57] So, anyways, uh what? One minutes. Got two minutes. All right, so actually, I can get to this last question from Nicholas then. I'm planning on doing a pre-batch cocktail for an event, and I'm having problems figuring out how to chill the drink to an appropriate temperature.
+
+[47:10] Uh, it's kind of a rum source, what? Wine. Wine scent. Nastasi says wine scent is the correct answer. Uh, which you know, you actually could.
+
+[47:18] So, what you do is you'd get Ziploc bags, fill it with salt and ice, and drop the ziplocks full of sort. You gotta make sure they're not gonna leak and wash them out, and then those will keep the product at the low temperature, right? If you circulate it through that. Just put it on a circulator. Then the only problem is make sure it's not gonna oxidize.
+
+[47:32] Whatever. I should make one of those things. No. If you do, you own Nastasia a uh a cut. Uh it's kind of a rum sour with hibiscus, so I'm guessing it should be served around minus five C.
+
+[47:43] Since I don't have access, the problem with hibiscus is that when hibiscus gets really cold, it can get a little bit tannic. So you might want to do a milk wash to the hibiscus uh if it's getting too astringent on the back of your mouth as the temperature get low. Anyway, that's just that's neither here nor there. Since I don't have access to a professional freezer with accuracy temperature control, I was taking up two options putting the cocktail in large bottles into a cooler, filling it all the way up with ice and water, and then adding salt to cool down the ice water to the target temperature. This works great.
+
+[48:08] I've done this many times. This is how we actually serve things uh when we're going away. The problem is make sure you wipe off the bottles when you uh get them out so that you don't pour salt water into people's drinks. Also, be aware that if you overdo the salt, you will freeze the cocktail, which isn't necessarily a problem. But what you might want to do is every five or ten minutes, check the bottles.
+
+[48:27] If they start crystallizing, it's okay, but if you get heavy crystallization, you need to pull them out for a while and let them temper and then kind of swap them in and out. But we've done that for years, it works fine. Two, chilling the rum all the way down in the freezer to around minus twenty, chilling the other ingredients uh in the refrigerator, and then mixing the two just prior to serving. This also works great. Uh hoping this will end up with an acceptable final temperature.
+
+[48:47] It does. It's a little warmer, that's gonna be closer to a Manhattan, probably around minus two or in that range, but yes, that works. Uh but here's the problem. Uh, and if do you have any comments on these ideas or possibly a better solution? Uh, thanks, greetings from Germany, Nicholas.
+
+[49:00] Here's the one problem. Most sour-based drinks are shaken cocktails. And so, what you're not getting from any of this is the texture on shaking. And when you're serving a stirred drink at a warmer temperature, it has a different balance. So, you just gotta make sure that if you're gonna serve, it's it's very, very, very rare to serve a uh to serve a shape a sour drink as a directly from the freezer drink, unless, and here's the key, unless you're actually serving it as a frozen drink.
+
+[49:31] And if you're gonna serve it as a frozen drink, then it's a lot easier because you just uh you have to mix it a little less alcoholic, and I have the proportions in the in Liquid Intelligence. You can just go or look it up on the look inside or look at any one of the other people that now have done this, and just load the stuff into Ziploc bags and pre-freeze them and serve them as a frozen drink. Because the problem is is that sour drinks with their normal source now. You could just make a sour and mix it to proportions that are better for stirred cocktails, and what that means is uh you know, you're gonna pull back, you're gonna scale back on the uh sugar and the acid uh and usually make it more booze heavy uh because it's will typically be at a slightly warmer temperature. Anyway, if there's a again in liquid intelligence, I have like all the ratios you can look at it for a stirred cocktail.
+
+[50:16] Uh I mean unless you clarify, it's not gonna be clarified, and so you'll be an enemy of quality for serving a stirred cocktail that's not clarified, but whatever. You know, we we're all enemies of quality from time to time. Uh but uh consider making a frozen drink in Ziploc bags. Otherwise, just from a strictly temperature standpoint, both of your other two techniques will work. If you're going to take it away to an away game, then salt and ice is the only way to go.
+
+[50:38] Uh anyway, so we we we're all done, right? Right, Dave? You need a Christmas gift, buy a spinzall or a shirt. Oh, yeah. Or both.
+
+[50:45] Or buy them all. Buy them all, buy Zem. Not as years old. As they say in uh oh, are we gonna get those back in the I mean, like I've ruined apparently everyone's Christmas. It's not me.
+
+[50:54] Jeff Bezos has ruined everybody's Christmas. I know. But Nastasio is channeling my favorite villain from uh Raiders of the Lost Dark. Bazam! Bazem Bose.
+
+[51:04] Remember that? No. Remember, so like uh supposed to be. It's the guy Tote when like they're in trying to get the uh when he burns his hand, Indiana Jones is holding that guy, and the bad the evil Nazi guy goes, shoots them, shoot some boss like that. And then they yeah, love that.
+
+[51:22] So that's that's a great movie. Did he act in anything else? I've never seen that guy. He did. He died relatively young.
+
+[51:27] He had a severe alcohol drinking problem and died of liver cirrhosis. Yeah. Yeah, and his wife also had a severe alcohol, but he's a great character actor. Anyways, uh, happy holidays! Cooking issues.
+
+[51:50] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[52:19] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:31] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave, our own host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1250 when it clock. From a Bernard's Pizzeria in Bushwick Br Brooklyn. Happy New Year, first uh show of the new year.
+
+[0:58] Not because Nastasia and I, the our spirit was wheeling. The Heritage Food flesh was weak. Right, Nastasia? Yeah. They're back.
+
+[1:06] Uh how was your uh long hiatus there, Dave? Not long enough. Oh zang. No, it's true because I went on vacation and got sick, so. Oh, what kind of sick did you get?
+
+[1:17] Uh it's like a chest cold and then you know going overboard with the mucineks every day. So are are you uh you got a cold. You know, it's been a it's been an interesting flu year because uh a lot of people have been getting the flu even if they got the flu shot. Because it's only what, like 30% effective this year. Yeah, it's something crazy like that.
+
+[1:34] Uh uh, I haven't gotten the flu so yet. Is there still time for me to get messed up? Nastasia got pretty messed up. I got the pee poo and the vomiting. Pee poo.
+
+[1:42] I love pee-poo is a great uh is that like uh we use uh here at uh Booker and Dax and Cooking Issues, uh the program. So by the way, just so you know, Cooking Issues, the program is Nastasia and Dave Cooking Issues, the Instagram, and uh what's the other thing uh Twitter thing that's basically just me so if you need to pester Nastasia you want to pest her at Hammer BDX right yeah uh what's your in in Instagram you already want to put your Instagram on blast yeah that's just my name Nastasia Lopez if you if it's if it's like spraying like rainbow death out of the eyes then that's that's her you can tell it's anyways uh so we have two basic things we like to either we like to say that you got the pee poo or we like to say that you know we set your butt on spray those are the two just so you know those are the two official Booker Index uh terms for it so uh well welcome back to us can you give your uh 23andMe story wait which part first of all I want you guys to call in your cooking related questions to 718 4972128 that's 718 4972128 what which part the survey that they made you take oh yeah so my mom got us all 23 and uh me uh you know like uh spit swabs right that so that like kids you did it as well right a long time ago yeah so that I can find out what oh I I am as white as I look like what so what are the genetics gonna tell me oh there's a smattering of some other northern European country in your blood that you didn't know about I'm gonna get the most boring results back I think that is kind of humanly possible like if there you know I mean like I can't imagine kind of anything of interest except for figuring out exactly what percentage Irish versus Scottish versus German I am. You know what I mean? Anyway. Did you get good results when you did it?
+
+[3:34] What are you? What are you? What do you what do you got? No, I don't remember. I have to look back.
+
+[3:38] You don't remember what you are? No. You have a freaking lunatic already. I can look at it right now. Dave, have you done this thing?
+
+[3:43] Uh I have not yet, no. Give the story. So, anyways, so because like, you know, I I go through my life kind of hoping someone will steal my identity so I don't have to use it anymore. Like, I gave them all of my information, filled out all the surveys and participating in everything, you know, that they that they have. And so they're asking me series after series of random questions, like, you know, how many you know times uh a week do you snore?
+
+[4:07] Answer, I don't know, I'm asleep, you idiot. And then like no, it really is. I guess what they mean is, I mean, I know I snore because my wife wakes me up to tell me to shut up, but like I can't tell that I'm snoring. Whatever. Anyway, that's not the point.
+
+[4:19] The point is at one point they there must be some sort of algorithm, because they said, and maybe they just got it from my profession, because they said, Does the sound of people chewing throw you into a rage? A rage. And I said, Yeah, yeah. The sound of chewing throws me into a rage, particularly the sound of snack food crunching when you're doing when you're cooking dinner, and nostasi is the same way. But how did they know that about me?
+
+[4:50] No, but then they said, How often are you angry? And you were like, the minute I opened my eyes. Yeah, I mean, it's no, it's no secret. That we're yeah, fueled on anger here. But like uh, you know, a good, healthy, I think, you know, uh a good, you know, a good healthy anger.
+
+[5:09] Like uh when the fire dies, so do so do you. You know what I mean? It's like the anger is what can you do that's good. We're we're not uh, you know, we're not really kind of an you know namaste. Oh my god.
+
+[5:19] Oh freaking mouth noises. Was that real or did you find that on the internet? No is really bad at mouth noises. Everyone's favorite thing bag. Peter?
+
+[5:26] Yeah. The point isn't. Stop it. Come on. I gotta people gotta listen over here, Dave.
+
+[5:37] So the the point is it's more like uh it's not that the crunching bothers me at the table because you know I have two kids and it's my job to stop them from eating with their mouth open because I have to send them out into the world and then I will be judged based on their mouth noises. But that's only one thing. The thing is is that when you're actively cooking dinner and someone goes into the pantry next to where you're cooking and trying to get everything to come in. Oh me, eating your me's oh my god. E eating the meat like just walking up to somebody's mise en place and starting to crunch on it.
+
+[6:07] You know what I mean? Uh it's like, what the hell are you doing? Yeah. What the hell are you doing? You know what I mean?
+
+[6:12] And and and but like also just sitting there behind you eating like tortilla chips while you're trying to get dinner. And you know that every tortilla chip that they eat is one less bite of the food that you're trying to prepare now that they're gonna eat at the meal. I think I'm not that hungry anymore. Yeah, plus you're not eating, you're cooking. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:31] And like and like there, it's like that just kills me. It just makes me it sends me into kind of an irrational rage. And I'm surprised that the 23andme people were like, you know, I bet you this is the kind of guy that you know goes into an irrational rage when he hears people crunching on things. Yeah. You know?
+
+[6:48] Yeah. But you're the same way. I know, yeah. It's not just me. They didn't have that back then when I took it.
+
+[6:53] They didn't have that kind of survey. They must have gotten your genetic data. And they're like, whoa. We've never seen this profile before. They're like, you know what?
+
+[7:02] When I sent mine in, they're like, there's one lady. It's comparable. The comparable kind of answers so far. So, you know, maybe, maybe that's the thing. Uh so I want to give a uh quick uh shout out.
+
+[7:14] I went to so the whole break, right? Just to go show how like you know, not often I get to go out. I think I got to go to like two or three restaurants, including the fact that I flew to San Antonio. I was in San Antonio last week. Uh, but first, right before did you go any good good restaurants or anything over the break there, Anastasia?
+
+[7:30] No. You, Dave? Yeah, I was in uh London this past week and had some amazing Indian food. Um before you were sick? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:37] Nice. So uh what what you anything of note? Uh just like everything you'd expect. It was a vegetarian place, uh just just all the standard fare. The doll was amazing, uh the curry.
+
+[7:49] Yeah, it's really, really good. So, in what way better than what you get over here? Because you were over there and having fun, and when you're here, you're depressed and you have to come back and talk to us. Yeah, I mean, the yeah, the travel may have had something to do with it, just the excitement of being somewhere new, but but it was it was definitely top quality. I mean, as good as anything I've had anywhere.
+
+[8:07] Yeah. Well, it's a definite feeling of mine that food tastes better when you're with people you you like. First, food tastes much worse when you're with people you hate, right? Don't you think so, Nastasi? It's very hard to judge food when you're eating with someone you hate.
+
+[8:18] Like that time we went to California. Oh my god, am I ever gonna hear the freaking end of this? Anyway, but the uh, and then uh also like if you're having a good time, food obviously uh tastes better. That's why that's why I asked Dave. Uh so I went to uh uh longtime friend of the show, Joel Gargano has a Oh nice, you went.
+
+[8:36] Yeah, I went relatively new restaurant, Grano Arso, up in Chester, Connecticut, home of uh well, formerly home, he's dead now. A sculptor, uh artist, I should say, Saul Lewitt. Uh, you know, I and I I go up there quite often. It was really good. Had a really good place.
+
+[8:49] You guys should all go. So he's, you know, doing the uh he gets his wheat from you know the you know that area, and then he grinds it, makes his own pasta. I think he uh I think yeah, he think he uses the Arco Boleno, the same kind of one that uh that the ideas and food guys have, like Alex Nackey have. Uh and uh I thought it was really good. I thought I did a really good job.
+
+[9:08] And he was he took so this restaurant, right, in in Chestertown, and Chestertown is one of these kind of like you know, cute, it's cute towns. It's like that's that's not my thing. A cute town, like I could care less about a cute town. Do you like a cute town, Nastasi? Yeah, I like a cute town.
+
+[9:22] You love a cute town, right? I'm in a cute town, and I'm like, why am I here? You know what I mean? Like if I I'm in a cute what is your what is your ideal town look like? I don't really care.
+
+[9:32] That's the thing. Like, I like I like being you like industrial, like run down industrial. No, I hate that. I like um I like uh what do I like? I like being like in a forest.
+
+[9:43] I like being like like you know, in a mountain, like in the shade, having a glass of wine. Like that's what I like. Like being in a town. I like a town for like a little while, like a new town. Like you throw me in some sort of town that I don't understand that's new to me, like some sort of new thatching on the roof, perhaps.
+
+[9:59] And I'm like, I like that roof. I'm grooving on it, I like it. You know what I mean? Or like I'm in a new kind of building that I've never been in before. I'm like, you know what?
+
+[10:06] I like the way this feels, that fireplace, nice. I groove on it. And then, you know, but like, you know, cute, cute New England town. I mean, how many times have you done that before in your life? Cute New England town.
+
+[10:17] If you never went to another cute New England town, would you be okay? No. Really? Yeah. I like them.
+
+[10:22] I like them, but I mean that was like, you know, I'm just where wherever I am, that's where I am. What about you, Dave? Uh I guess. I don't know. That kind of freaks me out sometimes being out in like the middle of pastoral New England or anywhere else like that.
+
+[10:35] I wouldn't call it pastoral, it's a freaking town. Yeah, but you know what I'm talking about. Like compared to living here in the city, it's just like it's too quiet, it's too dark. Dark? What do you mean, dark?
+
+[10:44] What do you doing? Sunny New England town. Sunny New England. I guess I'm thinking about at night where it's like too quiet. And they have the lampposts and they're really warm.
+
+[10:53] What? I don't know what you guys are talking about anyway, I like Chester. I like Chester. I love Chester. I like Essex.
+
+[10:59] Essex is a nice town. Although you know all of these towns were built up they had like a lot of streams and so there's a lot of early uh mill work in these areas because they had a lot of early industrialization. So Connecticut and all of kind of New England when you know America was was building up agriculturally they had already been somewhat spent right the the land there had already been somewhat uh played out. So it wasn't so good at that point even though there was still agriculture already a lot of the agriculture was moving out of that area and it got built up as industrial and a lot of like the you know the local streams and whatnot that we have a lot of up there were converted to provide power for early industrial mills. And so uh every area had its own thing.
+
+[11:37] So like Connecticut and Massachusetts and whatnot we built a lot of guns right guns was a big business. Uh we made a lot of tools right uh you know including like famous famous towns like Bridgeport was like the machining capital anyway. So uh and you know a lot of this started pre uh electricity and so they needed power from things like water. So do you know what kind of Chester that whole area Chester, Essex, Chester not so much, but Essex and Deep River uh Iveryton you know what they were known for in a south yeah but yeah and piano keys. So they made like the majority of the ivory piano keys and piano actions and so there's things like piano keyboard so like it's a strange connection and the ivory story is incredibly horrific.
+
+[12:18] Like horrible. Like really bad. Like such like animal exploitation, human exploitation. So you have this cute little New England towns that are literally founded on misery. Like found like specifically founded on misery.
+
+[12:35] You know what I mean? Human and animal misery. And and in fact, like uh the ivory was still being handled by um uh slaves in you know, off of the uh uh east coast of Africa, being shipped out of uh like places like Zanzibar and up way past you know what we would normally think of as being uh the slave area, so slave era. So continued that human misery and animal misery, long past what you would think is reasonable. Yeah, anyway, so cute New England town.
+
+[13:05] That's what's underneath your cute New England town. But I do like it there. Anyway, Joel's restaurant, Grano Arso is a great restaurant, so there was a vegan restaurant, it was an all-vegan restaurant, and the chef who was there, they spent like a zillion dollars on the build-out of this place, right? This is still the same place. Same place.
+
+[13:20] So they a couple years ago, it got built out as a vegan restaurant, and it was kind of the only vegan restaurant in the whole area. But they spent like a boat ton the build-out. And uh, so the chef who was there, she's like, you know what? I don't really want to live here. I want to go back to California where I can get all the vegetables I want all the time.
+
+[13:39] So she left, and they're left with this huge build-out. Wow, and you know, they couldn't find an equivalent quality of chef to come in and keep running it. Is so the place shut down. So Joel got to go in and get this place. I mean, I didn't ask him how much he paid because that's rude, but uh, you know, so he got this.
+
+[13:55] I think he didn't have to do as much as you would normally have to do. Maybe he I mean, I'm sure he did a crap ton of work to open it up, but I'm saying he took over that space, and so I'm glad to see that space is uh going and going well. I I had a uh I had a great meal. I wanna go. Should go.
+
+[14:09] I went there without the kids, which is nice. Yeah, anyway. And the second place I got to go to uh was interesting, I was in San Antonio a couple days ago at the San Antonio cocktail conference. You ever been to San Antonio, Nastasia? So I went to the uh I went to the Alamo, and everyone says the Alamo is not as big as I thought, but they're just being jerks because the Alamo is gone.
+
+[14:28] It's just the church is left. So the picture that everyone takes in front of the Alamo is just like a little chapel. The rest of the Alamo's been kind of is as wiped out as all of the people who were there, you know, as as you know, Crockett and Bowie were, and you know, Travis and all those guys. Uh so anyways, so I went to the uh Alamo, which I guess you have to kind of do, but I went to this restaurant called uh restaurant Gwendolyn, and the chef there, uh Michael, I'm gonna butcher his last name, uh So Haki, right? Uh and so this guy has this restaurant, right?
+
+[14:55] And I c I I had a I had a good time, I was there for lunch. I'd like to go back for dinner sometime, but it he's he has an actual manifesto. He owns a ramen restaurant that just like pumps humans in and out, like it's got like you know, uh whatever it's called, people out the door. But he's got this manifesto, which he gave me a printed copy of. He also does things that like I don't want, you know.
+
+[15:13] He his sh his sh shtick, right, is no ingredients that were uh available, um no ingredients that weren't available in San Antonio prior to uh when Texas became a state. So like 18 like 46 or whatever. So like that, like any ingredient that they use has to be used has to be available within that San Antonio area era prior to 18 like 48 or whatever it is. And it but he runs it like a Mofad thing, and no electrical tools used in preparation at all. Everything has to be cut by handwork.
+
+[15:47] He uses gas because you have to, and he has refrigerators because you have to. Scoping out. I need to say that's why I love you, Sus. Anyway, uh, so point is like he has like all of these things, but the the interesting thing, and he has this like crazy manifesto. I I think more chefs need to have crazy manifestos, like some like kind of thing to work in.
+
+[15:59] But then what's interesting is is that he's not trying to run it. What you'd think he would do then is he's like, okay, well, I'm only doing recipes that would be of you know, work at that time in San Antonio. No. You have to choose something that has an historical historic or cultural or uh seasonal basis, but it can be any culture, any season. Uh not any season has to be current season, any culture, any basis, any era, as long as you can make it with the ingredients that were available in San Antonio prior to 18, whatever, and assuming you can do it without uh, you know, electrified kitchen equipment.
+
+[16:44] Isn't that isn't that an interesting? Like I say, choosing what the constraints are. And then he's like, he's also like uh also I don't tell why cooks what to make, they have to come up with the dish, but then I just come and if it doesn't meet my standards, it get pun it gets nuked. So he's got this cool kind of like interesting idea. Anyway, so uh, you know, a shout-out uh shout out to uh restaurant Gwendolyn and a shout out to Manifestos.
+
+[17:06] What do you think about manifestos, Nassasia? I don't know. Like, why not have a manifesto? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I couldn't function under someone's manifesto.
+
+[17:14] No. I would function poorly. I mean, for your new bar. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Certain.
+
+[17:21] I mean, like that they gotta first of all they gotta read liquid intelligence, and I think Don and I are going to write um, you know, certain kinds of things like we ever like well known certain people's, you know, quote unquote manifestos or documents have become legendary in the service industry, right? So Sasha's milk and honey bar uh manual uh was you know widely kind of circulated and um you know thing so yeah I'm sure we'll come up with some stuff. I I'm interested in trying to get people to choose music properly. That's hard. Super hard.
+
+[17:53] I think I I really I'm very, very anti uh, you know, um automatic. Um first of all, the worst is shuffle. The worst is shuffle. The worst thing you can do on earth is just hit shuffle on on your phone. Like it's just a that's a joke.
+
+[18:08] What do you think, Dave? Uh yes. I mean, sometimes the shuffle can be better than the human controlling it though. Yeah, but in other words, like assuming like even also, Dave, like you're a professional at this kind of stuff. I think that choosing music, look, people are gonna be more or less talented, right?
+
+[18:27] But you can also train somewhat people to be able to do it better than they do it now. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, to fit the vibe of the place, fit the fit the vibe of the place. Volume level, volumes, but that's a big one.
+
+[18:39] But I think the the vibe also the vi like people always choose the music they want to listen to rather than the music that's gonna get people to buy the most drinks. Right, that's a bad DJ though. Right. That's what I'm saying. But I think that can be taught.
+
+[18:52] Like, in other words, like, oh I like to listen to death metal. Well, guess what? People don't like to sit and have a cocktail or a pizza listening to death metal. You know what I mean? Like it's a good it's a good thing to do if you're trying to get people to leave, if you want them to order the food and get the F out.
+
+[19:09] You know what I mean? Lynn, yeah, by all means, like you know, crank whatever skinny puppy, voivod, you know, choose whatever, you know, whatever you want, get them out. Uh, you know, some sort of like Finnish or Norwegian craziness, you know, yeah, sure. But like uh people also people don't understand, like Shuffle doesn't understand that oh, it's late night. Don't play that like you know slow sappy crap now because people are gonna fall asleep you need them to you know you need some you need to keep them up you know what I mean so anyway so there's so stuff like that I think we'll write a little uh you know probably write a little manifesto on how to choose uh music yeah and what it would help if more people like you place value on this because as it stands you know a a restaurant owner or bar owner might be happy to just throw on the Spotify shuffle because hey that's free you know I don't have to pay anybody.
+
+[19:56] Yeah yeah that's true but you know here's my feeling on on that right I think like uh on the Spotify stuff you know what I think that's for maybe I'll see whether you agree as a person in you know more in that field than I am um I think those kind of uh services where you choose a channel are like if you're by yourself or you're in a small group I think they're fantastic to learn new songs that you don't otherwise know discovery discovery fantastic discovery tool terrible like terrible for uh a bar I think you want look if you can't come up with like a roster a personal roster of let's say a thousand songs right from which you can cull decent lists over the course of like or maybe two or three thousand songs you can call a decent list over the course of let's say you know a week then what the hell you know what I mean like it does you don't need all of songs everywhere to make a list that's interesting to your to your customers right you might not be interested because maybe you've heard these songs a lot but you know they're coming to your place for the first time maybe or second time or whatever. You see what I'm saying Dave you see where I'm going with this? Yeah. And so I think it's a mistake to put into your playlist a song you don't know right you know I think it's also a mistake to put in songs that you that you hate because if you put in a song if your staff is not happy with the music that's playing they don't seem as happy and if they don't seem as happy it rubs a bad vibe off on your customers but at the same time you have to also play stuff that's you know comfortable for your customers there's a there's a maximum anger level in the music that I think is allowable and it it's very context dependent. So like you know at you don't at you don't at uh 8 p.m right at 8 p.m when people are still about to go out to dinner you don't play uh sound of the police right you just don't do it right but at like you know midnight if you've just gone through uh you know a bu a bunch of hip hop and you decide that it's time to jump into some like you know old school east coast stuff sound of the police can keep the room bumping and it's not too angry at that time if you've kind of built up to it with a bunch of other songs.
+
+[22:09] Get my drift Dave and so I think people people need this need to think about this um you know the the real sad thing is is that it's the by far the best way to do music is to have someone live picking music based on what's going on in the room at that time but it's just not feasible it really is not feasible uh in a regular bar. So you have to you know you you have to think about arcs but you know maybe there's some way and Dave maybe we could talk about at some point of figuring out ways to to gently shift playlists in certain directions without having to sit there and cue up each song based on what the room is doing. You know what I mean? Yeah, there must be some kind of like intelligent music service that does something similar. I don't want a service.
+
+[22:50] I want you to I want like I think the house should have certain things. Like so, for instance, like also like everything depends on the size uh place you have. So a lot of the energy of a bar comes from the bartenders and the customers that at the bar and radiate out to the tables, right? So let's say you like someone comes in and you get a group of people that are from a particular area, right? Like someone comes in from uh oh, I don't know, they come in from Jersey.
+
+[23:17] From Jersey. Well, I mean, look, it like it depends on what time of day it is, whether I'm gonna go, you know. I mean, Jersey songs are easy, right? You just the Jersey people are are easy to please. You just throw on the Bon Jovi or you throw on freaking Springsteen.
+
+[23:31] Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, you know, you throw on one song and they're happy, but for you know, for God's sakes, don't put on highway patrolmen or everyone's gonna be weeping into their into their beers and leave your leave your place depressed. But like, you know, but I'm saying uh choose a couple songs. I mean, I think when you're gonna go something like Bon Jovi or or Springsteen, I think that the trick there is to pick a song that bumps hard enough to keep the place going, but isn't the same one that everyone's heard all the time. That's the challenge with that.
+
+[23:55] But like, you know, you should you should store like a song from every area so that someone if someone comes up you can get them something. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Yeah like you know you don't like you don't believe in that? I think people really like it.
+
+[24:07] Like when you when someone from San Francisco comes and you play them and you know, I got five on it comes on, right? People are like, Oh yeah. You know what I mean? And then like they feel a little more comfortable that someone played something for them or you know what I mean? You don't believe in that, Dave?
+
+[24:21] No, I hear what you're saying. Anyways, whatever. How do we the hell do we get on this? How the hell do we get on this? You asked me about manifestos.
+
+[24:28] That's why I said is your bar gonna have one. Yeah, we're gonna have like a music manifesto. No, we're gonna think we're gonna use the TVs. All first of all, there may or may not be TVs in the bar that may or may not exist that we may have not announced yet. But they're not gonna be any TVs.
+
+[24:44] There's not gonna be any TV signals. I will not have a bar with TV signals in it. There will not, like I we will not be able to come watch the game at the bar. Like that's not gonna happen. So Nastasia will never come to the bar because she there's only two things Nastasia, three things Nastasia likes to do.
+
+[25:01] Drink sparkling uh uh rose wine, preferably champagne, but any sparkling rose will do in large glasses in copious amounts. That's still one thing. Yeah, that's that's still one. That's that's one. That's a unitary, that's a uh uh a multi-faceted unitary thing that she likes to do.
+
+[25:20] Bananagrams. Haven't done that in a while. Yeah, banana gram number two, and then uh like watching some kind of crappy sports thing on on the television ball. Football. Yeah, that's what she likes to do at a bar.
+
+[25:31] I only like to play bananagrams with real players like you. It would be people who have some integrity, yeah. Uh we have not answered a question. Okay, we'll come back and we'll we'll go through some serious question answering on cooking issues. Heritage Foods USA is a farm-to-table online butcher and found and sponsor of Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[26:04] Heritage Foods got its start when Patrick Martin's first step foot onto Frank Reese's Kansas farm in 2001. Back then, Frank was the only farmer in America raising true heritage turkeys with recorded lineages tracing back more than a hundred and fifty years. Patrick New Instant Lead found a unique moment, an opportunity to go beyond acknowledging these breeds as being jeopardized and to actually do something to save them. Patrick asked Frank to ramp up production and made a promise to him that if he raised them, Heritage Foods USA would sell them. That was the moment that Heritage Food slogan, eat them to save them was born.
+
+[26:38] By creating a market for delicious meats from Heritage Breeds, we can ensure they'll be around for generations to come. Plus Heritage Breeds just tastes a whole lot better. Learn more at Heritage Foods USA.com and use the code HeritageRadio for two free pork chops with your first order, brother. Did you get someone who actually speaks that way, or did you imitate somebody else's accent? That that is a former Heritage Foods employee who is from the South, but that's not really his natural way of speaking.
+
+[27:08] Well, he's a good way of saying pork chop. Two free pork chop. Pork chop, pork chop. Love to two free pork chops, brother. Although I hope that uh, you know, gotta degen got a degender that, Dave.
+
+[27:19] Anyway, we have a caller. Caller on the air. Hey Dave, this is Andy from Virginia, first time caller. Hey, how long time listener, right? How's it going?
+
+[27:27] I got a quick question about a chocolate foam. Okay. Where in Virginia? Um uh Shando Valley. Oh, beautiful over there, huh?
+
+[27:34] Yeah. Yeah. A little cold right now. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it's for an ice cream plate, so I'm trying to stay away from the dairy.
+
+[27:41] Um, so I'm just doing a one-to-one simple syrup with some Fresno chili and coriander, um, then hitting it with some cocoa powder for the chocolate. And I hit it with some Virtus Whip, um, and it didn't it didn't fluff up, and I also used methyl. Um it also didn't fluff up. I was wondering uh if you give me some pointers. What's the final texture you want?
+
+[28:03] Um, just you know, something light, uh light and airy. Right. So, like the the I forget I'm gonna forget who did this first, but you know, there was a time let's see whether this is kind of what you're thinking about. Like there was a time, oh five, six years ago, when uh everyone was doing um not everyone, like it was a thing. Aerated chocolate was a thing.
+
+[28:27] So it was uh I think you know, people had looked at the aero bar. You ever eaten an arrow bar? Love the arrow bar? It's interesting, like I'm more of a crunch guy, so it's not my normal kind of thing, but I had one the other day and actually enjoyable. Enjoyable, but not uh normal.
+
+[28:42] Anyways, so um aerated chocolate was a thing, and literally what they would do is just melt their mixture out and put it into a uh a vacuum pan, like a food saver vacuum pan, and suck a vacuum on it and then throw it in the fridge to set it, you know, real quick with the vacuum still on it. And people were getting these amazingly tall uh aerated chocolate. So I think Heston Blumenthal did some work with that. I think Johnny Azzini did some work with that. Wiley Dufresne, I think did some work with that.
+
+[29:10] Um but you know, that's that's one technique. A real interesting technique similar to that is um Alex Stupak did the same thing with ice cream base, and those ice cream bases when they were puffed up almost tasted like ain't like texture, like angel food cake. It was really do you ever have that stuff? It was pretty it was pretty uh I thought it was pretty interesting. And then Wiley, of course, also did aerated foes that way, like fois, foie gras, uh, you know, um preparations.
+
+[29:35] I forget what hydrocolloid he used for it, but that uh had that kind of like uh cakey kind of uh texture. So I don't know, is it was like was that the kind of thing you were looking for, or more like a standard mousse? Um, I was something something that I could pipe onto the plate that um would give me a little height also. But you want to do non-dairy, right? You said uh I mean, I would just I would just do like a normal, a non-dairy, no, no egg either.
+
+[30:00] I would just try to do, you know, it's like I haven't looked at it in a long time, but like you know, they uh the texture sample. I can go with the egg. I would just stay away from cream. Yeah, I would just do a standard, I would just do a standard then uh uh like uh chocolate mousse base and swap out uh coconut for the dairy. Uh or or almond for the dairy, but like I I happen to think coconut and chocolate go really, really uh well together.
+
+[30:24] And I g I said this, I've said this before in the air because my mind really got blown by a um a coconut-based chocolate sorbet back in the in the day. And I said it's like Sharon Sorbet years and years ago was doing a lot of uh uh like chocolate sorbet that I thought was like very I thought at the time I think the recipes changed, but at the time I thought very, very well done. Um and I'm pretty sure that they used coconut, and so whenever I am doing um non-dairy uh things that would otherwise be dairy, my go-to it isn't isn't maybe it should be, I just haven't done the experimentation, uh almond or or anything like that. It's coconut a hundred percent of the time. And I'm you know, I've always been real happy with the combination of uh coconut milk and or cream um with uh with chocolate.
+
+[31:13] Alright, I'll mess around with it. Alright. Let me know how it works and uh hope it warms up for you down there. I know I haven't been to the Shenandoah Valley since I was a kid. Isn't that where your uh grist mill is?
+
+[31:22] Yeah. Uh I don't know where that was. Herndon. I don't know where Herndon is. That's where I, you know, we uh like that grist mill that was for sale and we kept on looking at it and then finally someone sold it.
+
+[31:31] I was like, I'm gonna get rid of and it's gonna get rid of everything in my life, except for my kids and my wife would not have gone with me, and then my life would have been over. But like we remember every couple of days I'll go on that website and look at that grist mill, like working grist mill, it had rights to the stream so that you they couldn't stop you from using the water. It had some sort of crazy deeded rights to the water use based on like the early 1800s when it when it was built, and I was like, I want it, I want that grist mill, I want that super cheap. It's so cheap, so much land, so much grist mill, and like so what? So it was about to slide off of its foundations into the water.
+
+[32:05] I could fix that. Like, like, you know, if you have nothing else to do, like fix foundations, I mean, you know, you know, whatever. Anyway, that was oh dreams. You want to take another call? Yeah, sure.
+
+[32:16] Caller, you're on the air. Hi guys, thanks for taking my call. My name's Mike. I'm in Philadelphia. I have a question regarding uh Moscow mule keg.
+
+[32:25] I've been doing. I can't get ginger to be appropriately clear and still be boldly ginger flavored, and wondered if you had any suggestions. Sure. What are you doing right now? Well, first of all, I'll say I'll say this.
+
+[32:36] If if you're gonna carbonate, right? Uh typically what I do is I s uh I, you know, peel the ginger, I slice it a paper thin, and then uh I I just make a standard syrup that way because I actually like the flavor of kind of uh cooked ginger. If you don't like it cooked, you can vac infuse a bunch of times or pressure infuse. But if you pressure infuse or vac infuse, you'll tend to throw off more starch, and that makes the carbonation a lot more difficult. Well, you start throwing off cloudy stuff.
+
+[33:07] If you just do like a light, hot steep with very finely sliced ginger, you can get a very strong ginger profile and keep it very clear. But anyway, so what are you doing right now? So I started doing a really strong ginger tea and felt like it wasn't quite spicy enough. Um so then I was trying to clarify a ginger juice and a centrifuge and hit that with cerebell after the fact. And by the time it was clear, it had lost so much flavor that it was not worth doing all that effort.
+
+[33:35] I agree. Um and it's hard to clarify. Ginger's hard to clarify. Uh I would uh I would say first of all, like little secret on on ginger, like whenever I do ginger, I always add uh chili to it. Always.
+
+[33:51] We're doing uh jalapeno in the drink recipe to kind of bump up the ginger already. Right. So like but so yeah, so like you could try to combine them as a if you're gonna have jalapeno separately, you don't need to add, I guess, to the ginger itself, but like I always use um uh I use a red, I always hit it with a red heat, right? So like uh something like um just something that's red because I think the the fruitiness uh of uh the red capsecums, I think helps balance uh ginger out really, really well and integrates better. Like green spicy things, like I love red jalapenos, but most people don't don't get them.
+
+[34:31] But I love red jalapenos. Like I I eat jar after jar those little cans of the red jalapenos in in uh tomato sauce. I just eat the hell out of those. But um the green ones, while I love the flavor of green ones as well, like I think green won't won't marry as it won't not that it won't not that it won't taste as good, but it won't seem as integral to the ginger. Like if you want yeah, if you I get what you're saying, that makes sense.
+
+[34:56] We were just trying to do something slightly different to make it our sort of house mule and have it not be just a straight up mule, so to do it jalapeno. Yeah. Have you tried just old school make it a little more vegetable? Have you tried super old school, just like really slicing it thin and and doing the boil up with the sugar in the syrup and then straining it out? I had been cooking down ginger for a while, making a really strong tea um cupboard and letting it steep for a while and then straining all that onto sugar and getting it into a syrup that way.
+
+[35:24] I would try it with the sugar from the get-go and I don't I don't know whether the key is going like as long as just like slicing it really thin and actually not having not having it break down, right? So the like the more you cook ginger the more the flavor is going to change, right? So like you know I well the way you know the way I always do it is I bring it up and then I I uh you know I I basically bring it up to heat and then turn it off and then just keep um I just keep uh you know finger tasting it. You know and it's like is it there? Is it there?
+
+[35:55] And I've done that with both with the sugar in the ginger and without so when I'm making sodas and I'm using ginger I usually do ginger without sugar and add sugar separately but um I've done it both ways and the results are slightly different both ways so so I would do it. But the ginger is extremely susceptible to the amount of time that you um that you cook it and and or that's why I was trying to get a more raw syrup and see if I could get the flavor that way but there's just so much sediment coming out of it. Yeah would have any benefit of doing fine sliced ginger and just infusing that into the vodka first than in a syrup. That would that would probably work uh I'm trying to remember whether I have done it. Um I'm sure that would I'm sure that would do something I would play a I'd play around it.
+
+[36:45] One question I have is like let's say you were to do ISI, right? Um the question is so for instance, I made flash pickled uh like sushi style vinegar, uh ginger rather last week, because I I hate the stuff in jars, and so I always just slice I get a younger ginger that has less fiber in it, right? I slice it super thin, and then I just throw it into uh you know what amounts to a one-to-one sugar uh rice vinegar and then with some salt, right? And because I don't care, I don't care if the crap's pink or not. And then I, you know, I basically pressure or vacuum infuse the sy the syrup into the ginger so that it's ready within you know 30 minutes or something like this.
+
+[37:24] Um so and I'm trying to think back. That did not throw off any starch, but I don't think I used a vacuum. I think I used a centrifuge to do the infusion. Uh I think I did centrifugal infusion instead of vacuum infusion. I'm just wondering whether if you pull a vacuum on it or if you pressure and let it blast out, whether it's gonna throw off a lot of sediment, because that sediment is really gonna make the carbonation touchy.
+
+[37:45] You know what I mean? Yeah, so hypothetically, what if I vacuum seal it or do it right in a corny keg hooked up to carbonation to pressurize it with the vodka and then run all that through a centrifuge to get the starch back out of it. Remember, the centrifuge is if you get starch into it, the only thing it's gonna save you is time because it's gotta settle way the hell down. Uh you know, because it's not gonna form a puck unless you put something else in it. But the the something else that will form a puck with the starch will also strip a lot of the flavor out, which will be your enemy.
+
+[38:14] Right. Uh yeah, no, but I think it'll work. It's I mean, I would give it a I'll give it a shot. And uh Dave, ask the chat room if or I'm asking the chat room if they if they have any uh luck with this kind of stuff. Anyway, you're a here chat room.
+
+[38:27] Yeah, so we'll see, and then hopefully someone will post something up there and you can see whether they get uh a good result. Cool. Thank you. All right, let us know. Uh tweet tweet me back, cooking issues, let me know what's going on.
+
+[38:37] All right. Thank you. Okay. So uh Jarvis writes in from Milwaukee. I'm currently fermenting my own peppers with a little bit of fresh garlic bulbs to make my own hot sauce.
+
+[38:44] I got an airlock and lid container, it's been there since late October. My question is when it's time to blend uh to jar it, should I pr uh and preserve it? Should I blend it with vinegar? Well, that suspend the fermentation process. I just wanted to know my options on making it.
+
+[38:58] I think uh I wouldn't necessarily I mean there's a bunch of ways you can stop uh uh fermentation. Um but uh you know, like uh ethanol can suspend fermentation. The problem with using vinegar is that the vinegar that you have, unless you have that super high grade Swedish stuff, is probably only four to five percent. And so you're adding something that's very dilute anyway, and uh, you know, you'll slow down and stop anything, but uh even after you kill uh the lactic acid or uh bacteria, the lactobacillus, or you know, and there's probably acetobacter in there. Well, it depends, I don't know how your thing is fermenting or whatever you have in there.
+
+[39:33] Um, you know, you'll slow it down, but you won't necessarily kill it. And even after you do kill it, the enzymes that are there will continue to kind of change the flavor over time, at least so far uh from what I've read. I would say that the best way to kind of uh mostly halt it, uh I mean remember, so I I don't really know what vinegar is uh is gonna do to it. Um I'm assuming if the as acid content goes high enough, the lac uh the lactic acid bacteria won't be able to operate anymore. I know that uh, you know, you probably don't want to add a stabilizer that you can taste like uh sorbate or something like this.
+
+[40:08] Um you probably you know, you you know, when you're they're stabilizing things like miso, partially stabilizing, and they stabilize them with low concentrations of ethanol, um, which in conjunction with what else is there stabilizes them. But I would just uh I would just heat them low temperature. So you're not heating them to sterilize them. I would pack them in jars and heat them up to you know about 60 Celsius. That shouldn't affect the texture too much, and that'll stop and kill uh, you know, kill the stuff so it doesn't kind of continue uh any further uh it should you know stabilize.
+
+[40:42] My change the taste a little bit. I would I would um check the temperature, but I would do something, I mean that would also stop yeast from growing on it as long as it's closed. I would check a small sample first to see whether it does anything untoward to the taste, but that's probably what I ended up doing. Um Russ writes in, hey Dave, wondering if you're still happy with your Orphan Espresso grinder. It looks like they just came out with a production model and I was thinking about getting one.
+
+[41:03] Uh I'm also in Brazil right now, so if you get around to this before the 19th, recommendations for uh restaurants and brands of cachaça. Uh oh well, it is actually the 19th, but I don't have any because I've never been I've never been down there. Um I never been down there. I'm in uh Sao Jose de Compo uh Dos Campos, so and we'll spend a few days in Sao Paulo. So if anyone out there is from Brazil and wants to give Russ some recommendations right now, uh shoot them on over to the uh what's it called to the uh chat room.
+
+[41:28] As for the uh grinder, they have two grinders back when I bought them. They had the Lido grinder and they had the Ferros grinder, and the shtick with Orphan is is they make hand-cranked uh coffee grinders that are relatively inexpensive for the quality that they make, but have very, very high quality burrs in them. And so you'll, you know, you for several hundred dollars you could have a grinder that uses the same burrs as a many thousand dollar uh you know grinder that you would use for espresso. And my experience with the Lido was it would be a good travel grinder. Well, it was a pain to kind of crank uh a hundred percent of the time.
+
+[42:03] And in fact, I hooked it up to a drill. And then when I had the Ferros, uh, you know, I had to modify it somewhat because the way the way it was built wasn't friendly enough to use like kind of constantly, so I modified it to clamp it down to the table. I made a bean chute that went into it. I haven't looked at what they've done for their production model, and it worked great. I really I really liked it, but you know, I was given for for where I was using that, I didn't have my standard.
+
+[42:28] I use, you know, uh like a Rocky, I know it's not the state of the art anymore, but I use a Rocky at home. But where that coffee setup was, someone gave me a uh, you know, a super auto with a grinder on it, and I thought I was gonna hate it, but I ended up not hating it since I wasn't making the coffee 100% of the time, I couldn't convince other people to make coffee by gr hand grinding with the pharos, so I ended up uh I end up using the the grinder that's in the in the super auto. So um, you know, take that for what it means, but I think it's very high quality stuff, and I'm a fan of what they're doing. This is from Ken Ingber, longtime listener. The question of is food art usually boils down to craft versus art argument.
+
+[43:04] I avoid these conversations at all costs. That's a quote that I gave, I guess, Surface Magazine, uh, which is true because you know I come from an art background. Don't you hate those conversations, Nastasia? Is it odd? Is it food?
+
+[43:13] Is it odd? Is it food? Yeah, this is a longer. No, it's not because I'm not gonna he only so he said this was a crucial, and then Ken points out because he's a lawyer, this is a crucial and unavoidable part of the Supreme Court argument, the recent one, on the same-sex marriage versus cake baker case. And so uh if you're interested in how uh like whether or not a cook is an artiste uh like goes into law, just search uh, you know, Supreme Court oral arguments, uh cake maker or cake, and the oral arguments starting at page 11, they go through what is or what is not a an artist.
+
+[43:46] And so the idea being that if the cake maker is an artist, right, then they then the cake they're making is speech and is therefore protected, and therefore they can withhold it, right? They cannot bake the cake if let's say a same sa someone's gonna have a same sex marriage, they can say, I'm not going to make a cake. So it's first time I seen that like uh that uh someone has been someone has used the definition of what is art to try to uh you know discriminate against somebody so I mean it's kind of fascinating. But what's interesting is they go through in the oral arguments like, well is this is the person who does the floral arrangements are uh could that be an artist? Yes.
+
+[44:24] Uh the person who makes the ring could that be uh you know could the jeweler be an artist? Well it depends on what they asked the jeweler to do but yes could be an artist. And then the person goes the I forget what justice it was, maybe Ginsburg said, was it was um what about the hairdresser? The lawyer's like absolutely not the hairdresser cannot be an artist. I was like what the hell?
+
+[44:42] It's like why are you hating on hairdressing? Why why is hairdressing like why is making a cake art but like like hairdressing maybe they you know maybe the you know the lawyer had never watched any like you know interesting movies where people had amazing hairstyles but I mean like how is it like why insult hairstyling that way? Isn't that stupid? And on that my two favorite cases uh involving art and food one Constantine Brancuzi had a sculpture in I in the 20s, like twenty s 1926, 1928, called Bird in Space. You familiar with this?
+
+[45:13] It's like it looks like it he did it in like bronze, he did it in marble, he did it it looks like a like a like a I don't know, like a it doesn't look like a bird. But anyway like a tall, skinny like tube like a suppository. It looks like a s it looks like a like a like a large suppository on a pedestal. Anyways so um he goes to ship it, right? And the issue was is he was shipping it um between two localities, and the question is are you gonna pay taxes on it?
+
+[45:39] So most of these cases about uh you know about food or art that are interesting are have to do with tax law. So when the customs inspector opened it up, Custom Inspector goes, I don't think that's odd. I think he says I think he saw like a kitchen utensil or like some kind of a some kind of a thing like that, even though it's much bigger. You can never use it. What kind of kitchen utensil this giant like bird in space, but it got that kind of tax category, and so it was 40% duty at the time on that.
+
+[46:06] And so they got to a huge court case where they got uh uh Steichen, the photographer was the owner of that particular version of it. And so they went through this huge court case deciding kind of what art is and was it art? Answer was it was art. So you had these old school artists and art critics, including some very very famous ones, uh, come and argue against it being art and some four. So that was an interesting one on is it art?
+
+[46:29] And the second one was uh a famous case on whether tomato, also I believe tax-based, and you can look it up, just look up tomato court case, on whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. Oh, yeah, you know about it. Nice. Oh, really? So those are my two favorite court cases uh based on either art, and both of them I learned either when I was teaching cooking or when I was in art school.
+
+[46:51] Uh all right, do I have time to I mean come on? I gotta get one last, one last, one last, one last, come on, one last. Yeah, it's up to Nastasia. Yes, one last. All right, it's up to Nastasia.
+
+[46:59] Colin Hunter writes in from uh New Zealand, also, by the way, also a uh former bass player, which is nice. Everyone loves a bass player. Uh and also he says from New Zealand the grapefruit is pretty amazing here. One of my favorite ingredients to use. But my impression, uh my impression, uh Colin, is that it's not the same grapefruit we have, that it's the uh the Purman orange, the New Zealand grapefruit, which is an entirely different fruit, which I love.
+
+[47:21] Even Nastasia likes it. I get to the question. Okay. So uh he says I have four questions, I can get to one though. One I can get to one.
+
+[47:28] You gotta get to it though. Okay, in New Zealand, we have native uh uh uni sea urchins, they're called Kina. Uh I'm relatively new to dealing with them despite being a California native. I had some trouble with my Kina uh where some of the Rose, Rose, how you like that word, Nastasia? Rose sacks emitted a white milky substance after sitting around for a while in the fridge.
+
+[47:46] The color also changed and became a little more brown. I wondered what caused this and what I could do to prevent that from happening. Uh I made a number of observations. I wondered whether perhaps the kina were too stressed when I killed them. I did a few tests of the dish before I served it at dinner party, had no problem with any white liquid emission.
+
+[48:01] What do you think, Stas? Uh I had to leave some of the kina uh out on the bench top alive for a few hours. They were all alive when I killed them and were fresh that morning, straight out of the sea. Uh they would have been out of the water maybe eight hours. I think I stored them in the fridge, uh, but they were left out for some time.
+
+[48:15] And so then the question is, you know, what happened? Um, you know, can I do anything? Can I do anything better? Okay. This is an interesting question, and uh, you know, I love them, but it led me, it led it basically.
+
+[48:27] Your question pointed that I didn't really understand a lot about them, and there's a lot of interesting information on the internets about it. And what this had to do, uh, and I you know, I learned learned a lot from kind of looking at the question, is uh my assumption was it had something to do with the reproductive cycle of the urchin. And the short answer in case Dave rips the air off is that's that's true. You were using a sea urchin that was about to go into spawning. So um it turns out that the particular variety that is called Kina from New Zealand goes into spawning in November through March.
+
+[49:00] And so you were getting a uh, you know, one that was about to spawn, and it's a well-known fact, according to the JJ McDonnell uh corporation, that you can get milky uh roe uh if it's very close to spawning time. And uh at that time it'll have a much more uh bitter taste and it'll be more watery than it would if you get it um at other times. Um so anyway, so super like that's that's what happened to you. But what I didn't realize is that there's so there's so many more varieties of sea urchin than I knew about, and that the spawning cycle is relatively different and can do many different, you know, go through many different uh places. But here's some place here's some things I think you should look at.
+
+[49:41] You should look at uh sea urchin aquaculture uh wordpress.com and uh see sea urchin uh row the product. Fantastic read. Uh you should also check out um you should check out a guide to sea urchin reproductive cycle and staging sea urchin gonad samples by Philip James and Sten uh Sikavapuo, I can't pronounce that person's name. Sten somebody, uh, where I learned this interesting fact. G I is the gonad index.
+
+[50:12] And the gonad index is the weight of the gonad, uh the weight of the gonad inside of remember, you're not eating really the eggs specifically, you're eating the gonads, and it can be male or female, and you don't know whether you have a male or female typically unless you put it under a microscope and look at it, but you're eating the gonads. But the gonad index is the weight of the gonad versus the weight of the whole row, uh the whole sea urchin, and it can range from 1% to 20%. So you can have a huge range in the gonad side of a sea urchin. Another interesting fact, Nastasia, is that when you're raising sea urchin, there's no way to know what the size is until you kill it. And so, like they have no one's figured out a way to figure pre-figure out what the size of the thing is gonna be.
+
+[50:52] Uh, and here's the other thing that's like super super fascinating on it that you should uh pay attention to. So typically, sea urchins, as they're as they're grazing and growing, the sea urchins will uh the gonad size will increase and increase and increase. Right before spawning, uh like a couple weeks before spawning, they've gathered as much stuff as they're as they're gonna gather, then they get ready to spawn. That's when they start building up the eggs. So you can have what happens is is first of all, the size of the whole gonad changes, but then the percentage of that gonad that is storage cell.
+
+[51:23] Now it's a storage cells, is what you want to eat, right? The percentage of the storage cells is highest, like a month or so, I think, from my reading before spawning. Then it starts building up actual either eggs or sperm cells, and those are more bitter. So the high like the closer you get once it's built up the gonad to its maximum size of storage cells, like that's the peak point, and then from then on, even though the size is gonna keep getting slightly bigger, it's gonna get progressively more bitter, then it will spawn, they'll get they'll lose their texture, the size will go way down, and then it will start building up again. And they'll still be okay tasting when they're small, uh, you know, after they've gone through their spawning, but they'll be unacceptably small.
+
+[52:05] And so you have to wait for them to build up again. So that's it's all about the uh it's all about the breeding cycle and looking what reading. Reading, it's all about the breeding cycle of it. So look at those uh things. They're actually for me.
+
+[52:18] If you want to see what I think interesting reading is, read those things on sea urchins, and then we'll see you next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[52:56] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[53:20] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:31] Find us at heritageradionetwork.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brip Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia of the Hammer.
+
+[0:57] Lopez, how are you doing? Good. Yeah? Got Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave?
+
+[1:01] Also good. So I was uh, by the way, calling your questions. Uh hopefully cooking, uh cooking related-ish. Dave, you gotta talk into the microphone. Well, well, usually you tell me I gotta get back from the microphone because I'm screaming too much.
+
+[1:12] You're getting too much of a reverb. I never tell you that. By the way, by the way, by the way, like, did you have King Kong into this freaking studio? Dave's like, the shock mount on your microphone's broken and your normal chair also broken. I mean, you're one of the repeat offenders who is grabbing and twisting the things.
+
+[1:32] Maybe it's because the microphone is never pointed in the right direction. It's because the microphone's never pointed in the right direction, ever. It's like I feel like I said this before, I feel like Lemmy, except for the fact that like he was awesome and like an icon and he's dead. Otherwise, Lemmy and I are the same. We're talking into a microphone that's pointed in a crazy ass direction.
+
+[1:52] You a motorhead fan, Dave? He made it work though. Lemmy? Oh, man. Come on.
+
+[1:57] We are the rogue crew. That's a great song, right? Is that your favorite motorhead? What's your favorite motorhead song? I I I couldn't even name him.
+
+[2:04] What? Motorhead's one of those bands where it's like, you know, you know their music, but it all just sort of flows together. We We Are the Road Crew is definitely my favorite. Especially when he's like, another tube of super glue. He's all I mean, like, come on, Lemmy's good.
+
+[2:20] Speaking of which, uh, Dave before the show wasn't sure whether one of the lyrics I was quoting was Dead Milkman or Wesley Willis. I was like That's fair, right? I was like, Wesley Willis, come on, man. Do you know? I saw, first of all, Nastasia probably doesn't even know who the Dead Milkmen are.
+
+[2:35] Do you know who they are? You familiar with the song Punk Rock Girl? No. You familiar with the song Bitchin' Camaro? No.
+
+[2:42] Which is Camaro, but pronounced Camaro because it's bitch, bitchin' is not anti-family. It's bitching, it's not, it's not using, it's like bitching like awesome. Anti-female though. It's not, it's bitching. Bitchin' is awesome.
+
+[2:53] I don't think you know whether it has anything to do with the B-word. Bitchin'. It's like, you know, is that really having even anything to do with? Like, is that even related to the to the B-word? Anyway.
+
+[3:05] So the anyways, point being, uh, I the the Dead Milkman was one of a series of uh are you familiar with uh guys familiar with Gang Green? No. The disease? No. Do you guys know nothing about late 80s like comedy hardcore?
+
+[3:20] No. No. Not my bag. Anyway, so Gang Green was the Boston comedy hardcore group, right? They had such songs as I hate them already.
+
+[3:30] They had such songs as Alcohol, and uh they they got famous because they won a huge battle of the bands in Boston doing a uh a hardcore version of uh Hush Hush, Voices Carry. You know, it's pretty strong. Anyway, uh their their like kind of best album title ever was Older Bud Wiser. Huh? Huh?
+
+[3:52] Huh? Get it anyway. Womp womp. Hey, come on, man. It was the 80s.
+
+[3:56] And then um but Dead Milkmen were like down Philly Way, and they had uh Bitch and Camaro, and they had uh Punk Rock Girl was their big radio hit, and the album that I you know that came out when I was listening to them was Bielza Bubba, and I saw them in concert, and Rodney Anonymous, their lead singer, I had yeah used to have you know those miniature accordions, Dave? Miniature accordions? You know those miniatures? I mean I can picture it. Yeah, I think visualize a miniature accordion.
+
+[4:22] So you think of a normal console concertina as being that like either like hexagonal or occtagonal shaped thing, you know what I'm talking about? But a miniature accordion is like a concertina shaped like a full-size accordion, right? Okay. I don't know why I still following. I had one, right?
+
+[4:36] And I played it in a band in high school. Did you get that on the boardwalk or something? I stole it from my friend uh uh Ted, who actually is a professional musician now. Anyway, so I point is they is he signed my accordion like at the concert, and he signed it, Thanks for Saving My Life in Nam. That was how he signed it.
+
+[4:56] No, no, come on. Like the miniature accordion in c in college, like they go well together, but they they don't never end well. The same way that like my moose call never made it out of college. Was that like you you have a few drinks and then it comes out at a party and everybody hates it? No, it just gets stolen.
+
+[5:12] You have like the the first two things were accurate. You have a few drinks, you have a party, and then like the next morning there's no more moose call. There's no more miniature accordion. You know what I mean? It's right, right.
+
+[5:24] They're those things just kind of like item. They evap they evaporate like like like water. You know what I mean? Like they just gone. You can't hold on to them.
+
+[5:32] Same thing. The worst was I had a party, and this was way after college, and my navy flight helmet with the gold blast shield, which I used to wear on stage or like at parties, uh, evaporated. I don't know where it is. I loved that thing. That thing was amazing.
+
+[5:47] You know what I mean? Uh if you've never been on stage and had your lead singer uh beat you relentlessly on your flight helmet with the gold shield down while you're you know, that's that's life right there. That's how it's supposed to be. So wait, what was your band? In what in uh in uh in college?
+
+[6:04] At that time, yeah. Uh with the helmet on, I was in a band called uh Bluetooth. Bluetooth. Like Popeye. Yes.
+
+[6:13] Yeah, like Popeye. And the band before that was drastic yellow plastic. Yeah. Anyway, that's cool. Yeah, bass, bass getting ready to roll.
+
+[6:20] I wasn't playing the miniature accordion at that point. I was never good at the miniature accordion. They gave me that just so that I would have something to play. I was that guy in the band that didn't know how to play anything in high school. You should have gone to Stanford.
+
+[6:30] You would have been so great at Stanford. Why? Everything's miniature accordions and stuff. I know I wasn't in the band at college. I had a band in college.
+
+[6:39] I know, but I feel like you could have had both. And people loved you all. This this guy, the uh the uh like the other like like well-known bass player that was around my age in college, he uh he was in the college band. Like he was in the department in the music department on account of the fact that he was a real musician, and like it's a long time ago, so I guess he stole an upright bass from from Yale, and I was like, damn, that was sweet. And he used to play, and he was a really good player, and so he used to play both uh upright and uh you know and electric, and I was super jealous.
+
+[7:14] And he was like, he didn't talk like this. He's like, no one uses the upright, Dave. I'm not stealing it because it's like it's dying where it is. It's just it's it's dying. And so then I was like, you know what?
+
+[7:26] Fair, right? Look at what they're fixated on out there. Changing that one white Christmas light bulb. Yeah, it's not even Christmas anymore. I know.
+
+[7:34] Oh my god, check this out, people. To change the light bulb, they're trying to turn off the circuit because they're I guess they're worried about getting electrocuted changing a light bulb. Dave, do you turn off electricity when you change one of them? No. So this place is falling apart.
+
+[7:48] Uh, first of all, that's not the case. It's a light bulb, Nastasia. No, no, no, no. Robert is in general. Do you need Nastasia?
+
+[7:54] Like these uh people are our hosts. What about Robert is falling apart? Because people are our hosts and our friends, and you sitting here, Nastas. By the way, people, for those of you that don't know Nastasia, this is what it's like to work with Nastasia on a constant basis is that she will just burn you down. If you do a kindness to her or help her in or befriend her in any way, she will just sit there and burn you down like an incense stick.
+
+[8:17] Heritage is doing us a favor. Yeah, but heritage and Robert is they'd be like they'd be like siblings. Yeah, we're like that. Really? Yeah, we're like that.
+
+[8:25] Yeah, come on. Jesus. She's gonna get the orange one. I bet you she won't. Uh Nastasia, Nastasia, Nastasia.
+
+[8:32] Alright, so call in your questions, cooking related or otherwise. Two 718497-2128. That's 7184972128. Before we do that, any cooking related uh anecdotes, Nastasia? No.
+
+[8:43] Uh, Dave, any cooking related anecdotes? No, nothing good. All right, so people I can't. The fruit lines are clear, so now's the time to knock out those emails. Yeah, I hold a second.
+
+[8:50] I need some advice. I need some advice. I need some advice. That's crazy. You probably don't.
+
+[8:54] I do. You need you have a cooking question? I do. I do. A cooking issue?
+
+[8:58] This is a major cooking issue. So for those of you that have listened to the recent episodes, my building has no gas and has had no gas for four or five months, at least, right? They don't give you squat. They get you know what they gave you a one uh a certificate for one pizza, by the way, at a place whose pizza my children hate, right? And then That's an odd consolation.
+
+[9:26] You get a gift certificate for a pizza place. Yeah, and and get this, get this. By the way, here's a cooking piece of a cooking advice for you. They give you a hot plate, right? But a dual burner hot plate.
+
+[9:37] Now listen, people, perhaps, perhaps you think that a dual burner hot plate is better than a single burner hot plate. Dave, you got the little uh uh family feud strike noise. Not handy, yeah. I'm sorry. Let me guess, because it gets split to two when you want it all in one.
+
+[9:57] Well, no, because yeah, because like in other words, like when they design the unit, they don't design it such that you could put all the power into one burner. So each burner is half as powerful as a single burner would be, and you can't even boil water for pasta on it. Like you can't, like, let's say you have a family and you want to cook a whole pound of pasta. No, if you want to cook like by the way, Anastasia, have you ever like cooked just like a tiny amount of pasta? Or are you a whole box lady?
+
+[10:26] A whole box. Whole freaking box. Give it to me. Yeah, whole freaking box lady. You got to.
+
+[10:31] Why would you why would you leave that box just yeah, lingering? I don't know. I I but like in other words, like you couldn't cook a whole pound of pasta unless you're like doing the Cesare or the Ideas and Food where it's like a minimal water, mah. You know what I mean? Like you know how he does his like mini water, you know how Chesra does the mini water thing and and ideas and food does the soaking water thing.
+
+[10:49] Anyways, uh point being that uh by the way, ideas and food people. If if anyone uh is listening that uh talks to them, or if they're listening, uh the freeze dryer that they gave us is gonna be installed into the new bar once everything goes. So you can come yeah, you can come hang out with a hangout with your former buddy freeze dryer. The bar where I'm gonna DJ. DJ, spin it.
+
+[11:08] And uh, and uh by the way, like Nastasia, should we name that freeze dryer? Yeah. Now Nastasia does not I'm gonna get back to my thing in a second. Nastasia doesn't like that I typically give equipment female names. No, no, no, it's not female names.
+
+[11:23] You just call everything a her. The pronoun you use is her for every piece of equipment. The refrigerator, the welder, anything. Yeah. I I I get I guess from boat talk, maybe.
+
+[11:35] How's she doing? From boat talk. Yeah. Nastasia hates it. Hates it.
+
+[11:40] Hates that. And yet, I don't know, she never like erases that and then like and gives me like the he pronoun. Nastasia never Nastasia never thinks of the stuff that she works with as a person. That's why maybe. Like she's never like, oh, how's the oven feeling today?
+
+[11:55] You know what I mean? Anyway, getting back to the oven, which is what I'm talking about. So they ruined the gas in my building. They gave me this crappy hot plate, which I immediately pitched because I have a brevo control freak and I have another decent induction burner. Uh by the way, you know, IKEA is selling induction burners now for 29 bucks.
+
+[12:11] 29 freaking dollars. If anyone out there has experience with the $29 dollar IKEA uh induction burner, please let me know. I'm super curious to know whether an induction burner at that price point performs well. Please let me know. Chat room, speak up.
+
+[12:24] Yeah. So uh, anyways, so some idiot punctures the gas line and the whole building's been out of gas for like four or five months. They come and inspect uh my apartment today because they're trying to get it back together, and it failed. Why? Because I have a commercial oven.
+
+[12:39] And even though I bought specifically a commercial oven that was a brand that sold both commercial and residential, so they could be like, it's a wolf, man. It's residential oven, it's a wolf, you know, wolf, they make residential ovens. I bought the commercial one, and the guys who did the inspection caught it and were like, this is a commercial oven. So now I have to get rid of it. Oh no.
+
+[12:59] They didn't even know, by the way, by the way, people, they did not even know how heavily modified this commercial oven was. Like, if they had seen, if they had opened the metal plate over it and seen that I put a direct bypass of the thermostat into the main oven so that it could function as a pizza oven, they would have crapped their pants. You know what I mean? Like I'm evicted? No, they they did what they did now.
+
+[13:23] They what they did is they they said basically, you fail, they put a lock on my gas line, and I have to put in some sort of garbage oven. So then the question is, people, here's the question. Should I actually get rid of my oven, right? And find some sort of like, you know, minimal acceptable threshold home oven to to replace it with. No.
+
+[13:46] Or uh put this oven in the corner, throw a really dirt cheap, disgusting oven into it right now, so I pass inspection and then put the old oven back. The latter. I don't know. Like maybe there's a decent home oven out there. I look, I am gonna do whatever my wife wants, but I want to know what the crew thinks.
+
+[14:06] You think they're not gonna give me good advice. Nastasia's gonna tell you, like, oh, do this balls out thing, but do what your wife wants. What? Yeah. Because that's our crew.
+
+[14:14] They're gonna be like, oh man, yeah, do this, but in the end, do it what your wife wants. Man, Nastasia, see what I'm saying? People, she's cutting you down. She's cutting you down in the same way she's cutting Roberta's down. Do you know cuts everybody down?
+
+[14:29] How does it feel? That's even worse. How does it feel? Yeah, well, Nastasia, now you know how it feels. No, I'm always the singer like a multitask.
+
+[14:38] You cannot multitask. That is a lie. Nastasia is the worst multitasker in the whole world. This is like when Donald Trump. This is like both of you.
+
+[14:46] This is like when Donald Trump says I'm the least racist person you know. First of all, that can't possibly be the case that he's the least racist. Is this gonna be the political show now? No, but I'm saying that has nothing to do with politics. It's just clear that like whether or not you think he's a racist, he can't possibly be the least racist person that you know.
+
+[15:04] How come? A, I don't know the guy. And B, like, come on. I mean, like, if you if you include people that you know, that includes the Pope. I mean we've all heard the things he said and the seen the things that he's done, so yeah, it is impossible.
+
+[15:17] It's impossible. The least See this thing, it's like these hype hyperbolic superlatives that get pulled off. Anyway, point being that Nastasia respects women more either. No, nobody, nobody, and Nastasia very similarly likes to say that she has X, Y or skill that just aren't she has skills. I'm not good at darts.
+
+[15:38] People, very, very angry, like virulently angry at me. Because she said she's good at darts. I'm like, you're not, you're terrible at darts. I play her, I beat her handily. And she's like, see, I am good at darts.
+
+[15:54] You didn't even beat me by that much. And I was like, yeah, but Nastasia, I suck at darts and I beat you. And she was so angry at me. How angry are you? You were so so angry.
+
+[16:02] So angry. So angry. She does suck at darts, people. If any of you guys are dart sharks out there and you want to like hustle her on the dart game, you can just meet her at um crappy bar. What's the name of that bar again?
+
+[16:15] You don't go to the gaff? Why not? Nobody lives in that neighborhood anymore. So you gave up. I gave up on my bar that I was a regular at when I moved out of the neighborhood.
+
+[16:23] When you move out of the neighborhood, you don't feel like you belong anymore. And what am I gonna get? Sounds like a Springsteen song. Oh my god. What are you gonna do?
+
+[16:31] Go like you know 45 minutes to go to the bar that you used to live around the corner from and be a regular at? Just doesn't feel the same. Hey, so there's a caller, you missed your chance to do uh email questions. Well, maybe it's the caller who had an email question and said that they were gonna call in. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[16:48] Hey, Quinn? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So let me read uh well, do you want me to read your question or do you want to just uh you want to just ask me the question? You can read it.
+
+[16:57] Alright, so we had a call in it said uh question and it said, um, I'm wondering if the cooking issues team has uh any advice, and this is actually one chat room, listen up. And uh also I should call at some point. I have a friend uh who like works for the government on this, and she might have some ideas too. Anyway, basically, I was wondering if the cooking issues team has any advice for a passionate cook with a physical disability. I can explain my situation further, but essentially I just come up with ideas uh and other people uh actually do the cooking.
+
+[17:28] Obviously, I'm never going to be a chef, but I would love some kind of career in the food world. I hope to eventually sell some food products, but I also think I have some potential as a consultant. So, how would I get in the door without uh the ability to get restaurant experience or go to culinary school? Currently, I document my experiments on YouTube and Instagram, but that's about it. So uh so why don't you give a shout out to what your uh what your YouTube and Instagram handles are so that people can on YouTube, you should be able to find me cooking with here and on Instagram, uh-huh.
+
+[18:00] It's a little embarrassing because it's an old handle, but it's uh here dragon one three three seven. But at QDragon what? One three three seven. 1337. So Instagram is at QDragon1337, and your YouTube handle is cooking with Q, and that's the letter Q, right?
+
+[18:20] Yep. Okay. So now the the now you said you'd discuss it more, but but so before we get into it, like what like what are you like uh like specifically like what is it that you can and can't do in a kitchen? Pretty much nothing. Like yeah, like I direct.
+
+[18:38] What did you say? I couldn't hear you. I direct people. Okay, okay. So and but like your your your your palates, your palate, your sense of smell, all all all good, you're good with it.
+
+[18:51] I already make that excellent, but okay, yeah, but in other words, like okay, so that's all uh so and and do you have any um you have any allergies or anything like that? Nope, what's a polynomial where I'm I'm quite lucky. Okay. So if you this is an interesting, I've never had quite this question before, but back when I was at the French Culinary Institute, um, you know, when they did their kitchen renovations, um now remember, so I know you say you know you're not gonna go to cooking school, and that that's fine. Um it is gonna be extremely difficult, obviously, getting uh restaurant experience, but cooking schools might actually work with you.
+
+[19:31] I don't know if you've looked into it, because I know that cooking schools have to give loans uh to people, and the loans are given by uh the federal government, and cooking schools are um regulated under um you know under uh statute such that they kind of have to try to provide education to anyone that wants it. So, you know, we've never we never had someone to my knowledge that um you know, for instance, couldn't do the knife work or anything like that, but we definitely had people who couldn't couldn't walk, uh who were who were there and and working. So there might be something that some you know a cooking school is willing to uh work out for you if you just want to get the experience of what it's like to be in that environment, right? Or be around one of those kitchens. Or I'm sure there are some chefs, and maybe you've already done this, you know, who would set up some sort of a non-working stage where you could kind of absorb some of the environment of what goes on in one of these uh kitchens, which would be useful for you if, you know, as you say, someday you want to be a consultant or uh, you know, maybe an owner even of a restaurant of of that type.
+
+[20:48] It would be useful to get some just physical time in one of these uh places, just so you can um because you know, kitchens, as much as you know, they can be awesome and they can be horrible, right? The kind of uh, you know, the the camaraderie of the kitchen, the feel of it, like you know, what professional cooks are like in the kitchen, and it's widely variant depending on what kitchen you're in, but uh you know it's it's quite different, I think, than you'd get from watching the TV about it. Wouldn't you say this is true, Nustasia? Yes. So then comes the question.
+
+[21:20] So we know you know that it's not you you don't feel that you know you're going to be, you know, on the line, obviously. So, you know, what what what advice? Well, you know, taste as much as you can. Um can you go out to like you know, uh restaurants? Is that a problem for you or or not?
+
+[21:38] Uh a little bit. Again, I'm not in a big restaurant town either. Um but you know, again, I pre import a lot of interesting ingredients and I I cook a lot. So that's sort of my version of that for the moment. Right.
+
+[21:56] And now if you if you can, you know, like uh if you know, if you have the ability to take a trip to um you know, one of the you know, larger towns or you know, and go, you know, to some of these restaurants. And by the way, I know it's a you know, it can be a huge hardship to do that, like because it's expensive. Like no matter what, like even if you even if there were no kind of barriers put in your way at all, it can be expensive, so it can be a hardship. But um the advantage, and you know, and may you know maybe I don't know your I don't know your uh your econom you know your economic position in life or or you know, but it's the kind of thing that if you if there was a problem, this is something I guarantee you could probably get like a a go go fund me to go do because there's really not I mean tasting, cooking, experimenting, watching, uh these are all like super super super important, but you can learn so much having somebody else's food, right? There's there's um I've always kind of marveled that certain groups of uh American cooks, for instance, hamburger joints, pizza joints, uh places like that, these kind of people tend to not go and taste other people's stuff because they're like, I make the best hamburger, why would I go taste this person's hamburger?
+
+[23:12] You know what I mean? Whereas in the chef world, normal chef world, you know, the people that I know, it's the exact opposite. You know, I you know, I fall off the grid sometimes because I don't go out and eat enough. You need to go taste other people's stuff because looking at it isn't the same thing as uh actually seeing what somebody does, even just on the plate, even if you're not in their kitchen. And so, you know, the advice of uh Jeffrey Steingarden, who was kind of one of my uh, you know, early, you know, models uh in terms of like, you know, his palate and his brain, right?
+
+[23:47] Uh and if you know, if people if they haven't read that, the man who ate everything is still a classic book, you know, go go read it. Um but you know, his advice to people was always go more places, eat more stuff, and only through eating a bunch of other people's food can you actually gain knowledge. And so a story that I've told here a bunch of times is that I thought I knew about this was decades ago, this is like you know, 20 years ago. I thought I knew about you know espresso. This is back when you know nobody knew anything about espresso.
+
+[24:19] So I thought I knew everything about espresso until I went to Seattle, which at that time was the only place in um America that did a good job at espresso, you know, that that basically by and large. And it blew my mind. I was like, oh, there's all this stuff that I don't that I don't know, and just experiencing what someone else can do that you that you didn't even know about is a mind-bending thing and helps you grow quickly and immense uh immensely in terms of what you can do. Um so if you can somehow arrange your life to get out to the these places to s to go eat at places that you admire from afar whose whose work you think is something that you'd like to emulate, I think that's the first real step because that's the palette building step and also the mind building step on seeing how um how people do things that I think takes almost everyone to the next level. Whenever I know Anastasia gets really mad when people like come up and you know ask how to how to do X, Y, or Z when they haven't actually just tried to do it, right?
+
+[25:23] So isn't that your That's your biggest that's your biggest uh peeve, right? And so I think you know, in in in this, I mean it's obviously more of a challenge, but I would try to organize my life such that I could go out and do those things. Now then you have okay, well, what's my end game? Like, are you uh do you like to write? Uh yeah, I'm uh I'm a decent writer.
+
+[25:48] Actually, I'm a I don't have a favorite writer actually, but I guess my my other question would be does there exist any like consulting service that doesn't work remotely? Like is that you've already a thing or or all consulting people in the restaurant? So the thing about consulting is I mean, look, there there's as many different kinds of consultants as there are people because the when you're doing consulting work, it's just a matter of convincing the person who's gonna write a check that you're worth the money, right? But in the food and bar world, typically, you know, they like s there are many different kinds of consulting so you know I've been called uh for consulting where someone's like we're gonna build a new piece of equipment um we want you to come in and uh just sit down and talk to us about what you'd like to see in equipment right why because I have a niche for knowing how cooking equipment works and so they'll come in now do I make a living off that no could I maybe I don't know Stasis if we want it if we wanted to do that full time could we do that? It's not always secure it's and it's super hard.
+
+[27:02] Yeah now chefs right chefs usually build their consulting career on I opened these three restaurants I ran it it was a pain in the butt because it is and now I just want to do some consulting work those folks can make sometimes some decent coin because what they're doing is they're going into a failing restaurant or into a new restaurant they're building the program and then they're getting out but you know those people a usually have that like kind of chunk of experience behind them because when you're consulting they're paying you for a chunk of experience they're either paying you for one a skill that you have that nobody else has which is usually built off of some experience that you've put under your belt so that you have it and other people don't that's why theoretically you're worth the money to them. So from a chef standpoint uh it's very rare that someone's gonna get a consulting job just for like writing a recipe right because you know, most people with the consulting money w want someone who can set up a program, figure ordering, do hiring, make sure that the and then come back on a on a regular basis and make sure that the cooks are performing adequately, that X, Y, and Z is happening. At least for the consulting jobs that I normally see, right? But the the great thing about the food world is if in you know, 19, you know, in the year 2000 or 2001, 2002, when I started getting interested in uh trying to be in the food world, right? I didn't want to be a chef.
+
+[28:34] That's not what I wanted to be. Uh, but I I loved the food world. I wanted to be in in food. And so the thing was, you I had to find a niche, right? So I thought the niche was going to be the museum of food and drink.
+
+[28:45] I was like, this is what I'm gonna do. But then I realized that look, that there's no um I have no clout in the food world. Why would someone help me start the food museum? So, you know, luckily my my sister-in-law was just getting started in the food world right around that time. She now runs the Food Network magazine.
+
+[29:03] Uh, I was able to meet people like Jeffrey Steingarden. I eventually came to the you know attention of Michael Batterbury who ran Food and Wine, and you know, he introduced me to Harold McGee. Uh, you know, I I started building up uh experience, you know, in writing and in knowledge that then got me hired to the French culinary, where I built a niche in kind of new techniques and technologies based on my friendship that I had um uh built up with Wiley Dufresne, where I was working at WD 50, not working at, but you know, getting stuff for Wiley at WD50 and working on those kinds of problems. So I found a niche that allowed me to work in the food world without being a chef, right? Because why would anyone hire me to be a chef?
+
+[29:46] Or why would anyone hire me to do a TV show when there was already people who were doing TV shows that had proven track records? So you need to find what I would recommend is you need to find a niche that's uh either not currently populated and build the niche yourself, or like find some place that already exists where you can build up the experience that makes your that makes you valuable to someone who is gonna write uh check, right? So my main skill was I cooked a lot, I knew I knew a lot, and I just read an intense amount and absorbed an intense amount of information at a time when information was harder to get, and I was able to get equipment and fix equipment better than other people because I am basically treat myself like a piece of equipment, not like a human being, right, Nastasia? I'm like a Nastasia d hasn't decided whether I'm more animal or more cyborg, but uh you know, but it's so anyway. I'm I'm I'm working on cyborg.
+
+[30:46] Cyborg, yeah. So but the so the thing is is like what you have to find is you have to find out that you have to find some niche. So the niches that already exist that aren't in I would look first at niches that already exist that aren't working in the kitchen on the line, right? What town are you in? What city are you in?
+
+[31:05] Uh I'm on Vancouver Island in Canada. Oh, you have great food over there. There's there's so much good food in Vancouver. Oh, you're in a great place. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:15] Like, oh, is that not Vancouver? Well, so basically you live in was is it Vancouver Island just like all they have is oysters and nothing else? It's just oyster after oyster after oyster. No, there's like a bunch of towns, but I'm in like a small city. Right.
+
+[31:31] Do they grow oysters where you are? Are you like, how big is Vancouver Island? It's big. Uh so you're not actually near the water then. I mean, uh there yeah, we are, but it's like no one grows oysters here.
+
+[31:44] No, all right. Because I thought when I think of the Pacific Northwest up in Vancouver, I'm like, oysters, they grow oysters, right? And they have like good sushi restaurants. But okay. Uh I've never been, I guess, to Vancouver Island.
+
+[31:54] I have been to Vancouver. A lot of great restaurants there. Um so the um so anyway, so like one of the big niches is writing. So a lot of people will go to cooking school to get some experience, and then they'll start writing, right? Another thing is um, you know, if you are interested in in in in equipment or you know, I don't know, like what like what's your need?
+
+[32:17] Maybe your niche is uh accessibility. I don't know. You know, maybe there's some niche, something that you have that nobody else has that makes your skills and your ideas worth money. That's the thing you have to kind of hone in on. And it's it's like so personal, you know, that's why people ask me, like, how do you get into cooking and technology?
+
+[32:37] I'm like, well, it was easier back, you know, when I was doing it because there weren't a lot of people doing it. So you get to build your own your own niche, but it's very hard to see forward into what the future niches are going to be, do you know? Yeah, and also I am going to start offering people my knowledge at least for free, basically. Yeah, that's always a good way. If you can build up a following, followings are worth money, right?
+
+[33:02] So, like it like uh if you look at ID so ideas and food, those guys, Alex and Aki, right? They had a you know, they had a restaurant, right? But it's very small. And by the way, I don't like again, I don't know your your economics. So if you get really into it, it is possible for you to start a restaurant.
+
+[33:18] It's just gonna cost you a lot of money, right? A lot. But you could you could theoretically, and that's an instant way to get credibility in the restaurant world is to run a restaurant that works. I'm not gonna recommend to you that you do that because it can be an an incredible heartache. And I would definitely if I were you, if you're even thinking of doing it, you need to go like find online a chef who's simpatico with you who will let you at least just like hang out in the kitchen for a while with them to figure out kind of what's the deal there and what what's going on.
+
+[33:51] Read up on margins, read up on staffing, read up on ordering food on how this thing works because the actual nuts and bolts of being in a restaurant are like you know not necessarily fun. No. I do have a bit of a cheat code in that um my brother went to culinary school. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[34:13] But still, you're gonna need so here's the thing let's say you and your brother were going to open a place. That's like instant credibility. So Alex and Aki, they opened up a place, I think in Colorado I think somewhere, right? That was very small, very high end. They did their niche thing.
+
+[34:26] They had a uh you know a blog that became very well known but they they were kind of new techniques and technologies when very very very few people were doing it and they built up a following and that following they now I think have they have a donut shop. They they they open things occasionally that are to the public but they actually do make a a good living off of being consultants and um you know putting out their knowledge and and ideas and you know they've managed to make a good life of it. They're well regarded and you know and and they do their things. They're a model I would actually you know if you well I would contact them if I were you. A little bit yeah so the point being that yes, if and if you if you build a following the way they built a following, that following is is is monetizable.
+
+[35:07] The mistake people make, I think, is that you can do everything for fun, kind of without a plan, and then all of a sudden you'll have money. And that that doesn't happen. I think you have to do everything with a mind to, you know, yeah, I'm doing this for free now, but is there a way, is there someone eventually who'll pay me money for it? And that's the you know, that's the thing that I think a lot that's the part of the puzzle that a lot of people just kind of pray that that puzzle piece is gonna fall in, and it turns out no one will pay you money unless they have a reason to pay you money, right, Stas? Yep.
+
+[35:38] That is true. Do you think you think that a little trajectory trajectory would work with a pop-up and not like a full restaurant? Uh I don't know. Like like the like look, a lot of chefs, if you go to like a chef, someone who's been working for, you know, you know, 10 years, 12 years, and they just opened their own restaurant and they were working on a line, uh, they have less than charitable things to say about people who only run pop-ups. That's just been my experience.
+
+[36:06] I don't I think that everything has its his its own challenges, right? And chefs are very friendly, like in front of you, they can be a snarky group when they when they sneak off by themselves and are and have a few beers in them, right, Stas? Yes. Yeah. Um, you know, it's kind of a code.
+
+[36:22] No chef ever says anything negative about another cook uh in public. But it can be difficult. Like most most chefs only respect huge amounts of work and they hate anyone that tries to get ahead with, you know, without putting those huge amounts of work in, and they definitely don't see a pop-up as the same as a uh a full-size running permanent restaurant. True or false, Nastassian. True.
+
+[36:48] But your case might be different, right? I mean, everybody is different. If you can sell yourself to the to the if you even care about selling yourself to the chef world, like, you know, who make who cares really? I mean, like the question is is can you sell what can you sell yourself to someone who's gonna write a check? Because you know who's not gonna write the check?
+
+[37:04] The chef. The chef's not gonna write you a check. So it's like, you know, uh it's hard for me to kind of say what the the right answer is here. Um, what do you think, Sus? Yeah, so we gotta you want to take a quick break while then think about it.
+
+[37:22] Also, why don't we why don't we do this? Uh why don't like uh we gave out your the you are um cooking with Q and Dragon Q13, that's it, uh YouTube. And uh and QDragon1337 at uh Instagram. Why don't we do this? Why don't you um we'll we'll we'll come we'll if we'll let second line well you know how about this why don't we let the chat room look at this mull over it for a week and maybe some people have some suggestions and we can revisit it next week.
+
+[37:50] Does that sound good, people? Yes, sure. All right, cool. All right, thanks, Quinn, and uh we'll talk to you soon. All right, we'll take a break, be back with more cooking issues.
+
+[38:10] Heritage Foods USA is a farm to table online butcher and found and sponsor of Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Foods got its start when Patrick Martins first step foot onto Frank Reese's Kansas farm in 2001. Back then, Frank was the only farmer in America raising true heritage turkeys with recorded lineages tracing back more than a hundred and fifty years. Patrick knew instant Lead found a unique moment, an opportunity to go beyond acknowledging these breeds as being jeopardized and to actually do something to save them. Patrick asked Frank to ramp up production and made a promise to him that if he would raise them, Heritage Foods USA would sell them.
+
+[38:44] That was the moment that Heritage Food slogan, eat them to save them was born. By creating a market for delicious meats from Heritage Breeds, we can ensure they'll be around for generations to come. Plus Heritage Breeds just tastes a whole lot better. Learn more at HeritageFoods USA.com and use the code HeritageRadio for two free pork chops with your first order, brother. Alright, I'm gonna get in huge trouble for this.
+
+[39:09] I'm gonna get in huge trouble, Dave, for this. But when someone busts out that accent and says they can trace their heritage back over a hundred years, I'm like, what is this? A white supremacist freaking Turkey. Come on, man. We're trying to combat that perception here.
+
+[39:23] Heritage does not have anything to do with that BS. It's not like eugenic. No, I don't mean like America, but it sounds like some sort of eugenics thing. You know, some sort of like, you know, I can trace my bloodline back 100 years. No?
+
+[39:36] We're just talking about tasty pigs and turkeys. That's how it all starts, Dave. That's how it all starts. It starts with, well, you know, it's not that. It's just you.
+
+[39:45] First they came for the pigs. It's like Pat Pat Buchanan. Pat Buchanan's like, I just feel more comfortable about white people. It's not that I'm a racist. I just feel more comfortable around white people.
+
+[39:53] Wait, he said that? Yes, he said that. Wow. Yes. Like recently?
+
+[39:57] Uh I think fairly recently. Like that's how his mind works. His mind works. It's not racist to just feel more comfortable around a particular group of people. Well, yeah, it is.
+
+[40:07] I mean, like the definition. Yeah. I don't know whether he prefaced it with I'm not racist. So, like, that's the only part where I don't know if that's what he's saying. And the preface is in itself an immediate red flag.
+
+[40:21] Yes. Yes. I'm not racist, but. Uh okay. Yeah.
+
+[40:28] Alright. Uh, uh this is from Nick. Just finished doing my taxes. Uh man, what are you? Like super organized?
+
+[40:35] I do my taxes like in October when they're on extension. What do you do them, Sas? Like I'll do them in February, end of February. Yeah? Anyway, my man Nick has already done his taxes.
+
+[40:48] Uh just finished doing my taxes and wanted to treat myself to a fun new purchase with my return. The worst thing for an impulsive shopper is a sudden inflow of unexpected money. That is true, right? You ever are you a money spender like that, Stuz? Are you like I just got a whole throw it into savings.
+
+[41:04] Really? Yeah. Huh. Alright. I already have my spinz all and my Sears all has an expected ship date of May 24th because Amazon can't get their head out of their ass.
+
+[41:15] That is true. Is it so is there any any sort of uh word on how far up Amazon's assing we're still looking into this unprompted because they know that if they shove their head any farther in there behind won't they be able to see out of their former neck hole again? Yeah. Right? They'll just pop up through those like their head will pop up through where their neck used to be and they'll be able to see again.
+
+[41:38] How Nastasia just so people know how many Sears alls have we shipped to those fools? We now have what's four six eight zero plus two four three zero almost seven thousand that they have. Yeah. Yeah. So when are we gonna get our own stock again?
+
+[41:55] Um I just got the quote for the boat ship so that should be going out today. So in a month and a half we'll have our own? Yeah. Alright. In a month and a half, we'll have our own.
+
+[42:04] So unless they take them again. Remember we sent ourselves fifty and then they lost them. Yeah. Yeah. No.
+
+[42:13] Awesome. Anyway, uh, because Amazon can't get their heads out of their butts. Uh, do you know there's some people who think butt is as bad as the A word? That's crazy. They just don't like the word butt.
+
+[42:24] Even though you could just use it as an interjection, but you know what I mean? That one's fine, but if it's got two T's, no good. What do you think about that? I I think it's weird that people refer to it as the A word. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[42:35] Okay. I guess this is a family show. Family show. I mean, I said it when I was reading the direct quote because that's a direct quote. Although certain words you don't use even in direct quotes.
+
+[42:45] Like I never never direct quote like the C word or the N bomb. In any event, there's four minutes left. Okay, okay, okay. I've had my eye on a coon recon pressure cooker for quite some time, and I think it's about time to purchase one. Dave has been using his with a poly science slash brevel control freak and was wondering if he had some pointers for cooking on both that specific induction hob.
+
+[43:05] By the way, Nick, are you European? Because Americans don't call them Hobbs, do they? Do Americans call them Hobbs? We call them burners, yeah? I thought it was only British people to call them Hobbs.
+
+[43:14] On this show, do I ever call them Hobbs? Never heard that word before. Yeah, Hobb is Hob is English for burner. Like, anyway. I once said aluminium as a joke, and someone's like, Well, you British?
+
+[43:24] I'm like, hell no. Anyway. Uh Dave has been using this with a poly science brevel control freak, was wondering if he had some pointers for cooking on both that specific induction burner and on induction burners in general. I have a control freak, but I am sure I am a small minority. I know Nastasia detests second questions.
+
+[43:42] But if there is time, I wanted to pose a question to all three of you and any guests. Uh what would you buy with your tax return money other than a spinzall, of course? Well, you hit that one first, and I'll talk pressure cookers. Put it in my savings. Oh, jeez.
+
+[43:55] We'll let Dave think about it while I answer this question, right? Yeah, if I spent any money right now, you know what I want? I want uh I want a decent, like um I wanted maybe that remarkable pad, but I'm thinking like, or an iPad, something I can write on because I've been doing all of these things that require notebook paper, and it sucks having to switch between a PDF reader on my phone and like paper to write on. It's been a huge production issue for me. So that's what I would do.
+
+[44:20] Anyway, induction. So the issue with you cooking on an the great thing about cooking with an induction burner and uh pressure cooker is that one of the main problems with non-electric pressure cookers like Kun Recon and whatnot is that when you're cooking something thick and you're trying to get it up to pressure, you put high heat into it to get it up to pressure fast, right? Especially because you don't want the cooking time to get thrown off too much. And then you have to throttle it down really low in order to uh maintain that pressure. During that initial ramp up time, especially if you're cooking things, and a lot of old pressure cooker recipes will actually tell you not to cook things like tomatoes because they scorch on the bottom of the pan, and nothing's worse than scorching your pan with a pressure cooker when you're getting it up to pressure because you can't smell it because the thing is sealed.
+
+[45:04] You can smell a little bit when it starts leaking, but you tend to burn it and not know how horribly burnt it is until it's way, way too late. The great thing about an induction burner is you can set it to ramp quickly to a temperature, but choose a temperature that's only about 20 uh or 30 degrees higher than your finished temperature. So that's what I do. I set my induction burner at like two 260 or so uh uh Fahrenheit, let it get up to pr a little higher, actually, sorry, like 275. Let it get up to pressure, and then usually with the control freak, you have to maintain a temperature delta of roughly 10 to 15 degrees between the uh thermostat and the actual pot temperature because you can't use a probe with it because it's sealed.
+
+[45:46] So that's what I typically do, and it's very even and you can do very thick things in a pressure cooker that way without having scorching. The problem is if you're cooking something that's extremely thick in a pressure cooker, it can be hard to build up pressure because it's so thick that um it doesn't have convective forces. So that's like one issue with cooking things that are extremely thick is the lack of convection uh inside of the stuff, but eventually you you can get over it. Uh, and also you'll get like blurps. If you're doing like like pea soup, you'll get blurps uh from the bottom onto the top of your of your lid, even though technically it shouldn't be boiling too much.
+
+[46:21] So, what I tend to do is I'll put the pressure cooker, I'll seal it, and I'll sit there and I'll just shimmy like it'll start coming up to pressure and I'll shimmy it back and forth. I'm making a like a shimmy with my hands and ship not like a shake weight, like a shake weight, shimmy it on the burner to kind of move the stuff around because of the lack of convective forces, and so that's kind of what I do. Uh I was I still love my Kun Recon, you know, all these uh you know, decades later, having used it. Uh I still recommend it, even though I broke the handle off of it and had to weld a handle onto it. Which by the way, I welded it without uh without actually damaging the pot.
+
+[46:55] So I wasn't stru I didn't weld onto the structure of the pot, I welded onto the rivets that held the handle down. So I don't want to hear anything about how I made my life dangerous. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Um people seem to like this thing from Fissler, the Vita, whatever.
+
+[47:09] Um the Vita Vita Vit, which I've never used, but it's a good thing. Oh, on the way out, Colin asked me for big pressure cookers that don't vent. I've never seen one. The only big pressure cookers, really big pressure cookers I've ever used are the that doesn't vent is the American pressure canner. Two problems with it, it.
+
+[47:27] It's all aluminum. Also, it's a pain to seal. And here's the thing: there's a website. Sorry, Dave, this is on my way out. Website said the wrongest thing in the world.
+
+[47:29] They said this. You can cook anything you want in a big pressure cooker the same way you can cook it in a small pressure cooker, but you can't cook a large amount in a small pressure cooker. That's only partially true. When you get a pressure cooker the size of the American pressure canner that's like 50 liters, 40 something, 50 liters, it takes forever to come up to pressure. So uh unless you really need bigger, I would just get the biggest style coon recon that's built.
+
+[48:00] It can do small amounts of stock and you're good to go. If you only buy the giant pressure cookers if you actually need to cook a giant amount of stuff, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[48:29] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[48:55] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:32] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio every Tuesday from Revelate 12 to Revelate 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Not joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez because of scheduling issues. So now that she's opening uh, you know, a restaurant over there, the pasta flyer, she's gotta actually deal with scheduling issues like a real human being.
+
+[1:11] Playing the part of Nastasia the Hammer Lopez today is Dra Drak Jack Shream. Frankly, I'm okay with Drac. That sounds great. Oh yeah. So uh Jack, for those of you that don't, he's been on the show several times.
+
+[1:26] For those of you that don't know Jack, uh Jack was the uh head bar well first was a food studies graduate at NYU, then went to go work in because it's not really your style, inexplicably for Milk Bar. Not that I don't like Milk Bar, but I mean I don't know. I didn't know what my style was yet. Okay, fair, fair. Uh came on to Booker and Dax as a bar back, worked his way up to head bartender, and then when we closed, went to nomad, became a bartender at Nomad.
+
+[1:48] And if if we start a new project together, if we may or may not start a new project. Yeah. If let's say with Don and you know some other good people who I won't mention, if we're gonna start a project soon, if that were to happen, Jack might or may not be like integral, the integral player. We'll see. You know, who knows?
+
+[2:14] Yeah. So uh I know people have called in before for uh old BDX specs, or probably even I don't know if you're allowed to release nomad specs. What's it no, definitely not? Okay, those are mine. Okay, but Booker Index, like even if they're not yours at Booker Index, we are open source wear absolutely bar.
+
+[2:28] So if you want a booker index, I have them queued up, downloaded, no internet issues. And then it's you know, if you want if like, am I allowed to talk about Smoley and the Nomad Shake? I think I've already mentioned it on the air before. Is that an allowable thing to talk about? I think that's fine.
+
+[2:41] Just talk about how great Smolly Shake is and leave it at that. Okay, and uh, I don't know, uh Dave. Have we talked about that before? Uh I don't know, I don't remember. Speaking of, we got Dave in the booth.
+
+[2:50] Oh, hey there. What's up, Dave? How you doing, Dave? Good, how are you guys? Good, doing great.
+
+[2:55] Cool, cool, great. Uh all right, so call in your questions uh to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, people, I want you to know. We also asked, because really you need to replace Nastasi with two people, not one people.
+
+[3:09] Even though she says nothing, the evil energy she brings into the room too strong, just so strong. True. Dave, true or false. When you're here all the time, like the evil energy she brings into the studio gets me wound up like like like like nobody's business, right? Oh, yeah.
+
+[3:23] Absolutely true. Yeah, so it takes like it takes like a nation of people to get me as lathered up to hold you back. As I would, yeah, nation. Despite her villainy, though, I'm so excited about Pasta Flyer. It's so great.
+
+[3:36] The Times review is awesome. So here's this. This is Nastasia Lopez in a in a nutshell. She's sitting here, of course, she's reading something on her phone instead of listening last week. As Pasta Flyer's review comes out in the New York Times.
+
+[3:50] By the way, New York Times very rarely write rates that style of restaurant. Quick, quick, casual, casual. New times heard of it. New York Times. Yeah.
+
+[3:57] Then she's like, I'm like, she's like, after right after the mic's turn off, she's like, oh yeah, by the way, we got reviewed in the New York Times like dingus, dingus. You had a platform. You had a platform. She's like, eh, that's Nastasia. She also had another platform.
+
+[4:09] It was the New York Times. So I think I think she'll be okay. She'll be okay, but I mean, like, you know, take a chance to crow a little bit. Oh, absolutely. Nastasia, like, as much as she will cut down somebody else and crow about herself personally when you're stating with her alone, never crows in public.
+
+[4:24] No, no crow public crowing. And you know what? I respect that about her. But at the same time, this is a cool thing. You should talk about it.
+
+[4:30] You should talk about it. Do you think she doesn't crow because she is because she doesn't want someone to shove it down her throat later? I don't know. I I think that's just her personality. You're so charitable.
+
+[4:42] Jack is such a charity. Jack is the most charitable person. You know, let me ask you, like, for all of you who don't know, Jack worked first, like in two different, very high functioning but punishing environments. Momo and Nomad, right? And Nomad, by the way, run by Leo uh Robochek on the bar side.
+
+[4:59] Friend, I admire him immensely, not punishing because he's evil, punishing because he's exacting. Yeah. Which is a good thing. Absolutely. Yeah.
+
+[5:07] You know. Made me a way better human being and especially a way better bartender. Yeah. So. And uh, but punishing, right?
+
+[5:14] And then uh Momo, also, Momofuku, yeah. Punishing. Differently punishing. Differently punishing. But if you can weather that and still be and still give someone uh another human being the benefit of the doubt, well, yeah.
+
+[5:28] Kudos. Kudos, Jack. All right. So we got some questions in. Uh let's take a look.
+
+[5:33] Oh, we got a caller? All right, caller. You're on the air. Hey Dave, it's Matt from Mystic. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[5:38] I'm good. Good. How's the spins all training? It's fantastic. Good.
+
+[5:43] It spins everything. Yeah, exactly. Not some. All. But let me just let me just tell you something.
+
+[5:51] The next product, which I'm not going to talk about, but the next Booker and Dax product, which specifically I will not talk about, was going to be the third in my Zol trilogy. So I I was guess what it was? No. Because I can't, I'm not going to confirm or deny. So it's going to be in the Zol trilogy.
+
+[6:07] And I was extremely depressed because Chris from Hong Kong, our our our Chinese um uh uh what liaison, right, informed me that the third Zol is already a trademarked product. And so the third installment of the trilogy can only be known unofficially as the Zol. Anyway, so I'm very depressed about that. But go ahead, Matt, what was your question? Uh well, I wanted to ask Jack about what the specs for the struggler were from back in the Booker Booker Dex days.
+
+[6:42] Was the Struggler yours or Nick's, Jack? Struggler is an Ann Robinson. Oh, it's Ann's? Yes. I love Ann.
+
+[6:48] I'm pulling it up right now. So this the funny thing about the struggler is it's the least Booker and Dax cocktail that has ever been on the Booker and Dax movies. By the way, for those of you where like you how many programs does she run now? Uh she does cocktails for Andrew Carmelini wherever he needs her to do cocktails. Okay.
+
+[7:08] All the no-ho hospitality. Okay. So it's a big deal. She's a big deal. She's good.
+
+[7:12] Anyway, she is the most friendly, stubborn person I know. How stubborn is Ann Robinson? Uh fully. As stubborn as I am almost. Yeah, differently, but absolutely.
+
+[7:24] I mean, and do you know anyone more stubborn than I am? No. No. So like me neither. Yeah.
+
+[7:29] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So. All right.
+
+[7:31] So the specs for the struggler is two dashes of orange bitters. We use Regans at the bar. Uh a bar spoon of. Well, why do we first of all, why did that happen? I love Gary Regan.
+
+[7:42] Yeah, right. I have a perfectly good orange. What? Hey, I hello. I have a perfectly good orange bitters recipe.
+
+[7:50] Why didn't we not use it? You guys are too with I'm not going to say you were too lazy. Not you personally, too lazy. But it takes literally 45 minutes to make a like a year's worth of orange bitters. That's true.
+
+[8:01] And we did it sometimes. Do you like the Regans better? I like mine better. I'm just saying, but it's mine. I like both.
+
+[8:07] We need to make it again. It's been too long. I actually only ever made one batch of it ever, and then we used it for a long time, but it it didn't. We I remember there being a problem with some kind like something with pectin. I had to spin it a bunch of times.
+
+[8:20] It was kind of a nightmare. The one time, one of the times I did it. I obviously screwed something up. You add the SPL at the get go, let it settle together. I didn't add the SPL at the get go, and then I was like, what's going on?
+
+[8:30] What is this? What so that's the problem. All right. So go ahead. We'll do it again.
+
+[8:34] Okay. Okay. So orange bitters of your choice, two dashes, whatever you like. Uh bar spoon of frambois, so raspberry liqueur. Which by the way, not Booker and Axe, but P.S.
+
+[8:45] We didn't we have to buy it or did we like like No, that's something we inherited. We inherited that whole shelf of Rando liqueurs, and then we ended up buying Raspberry Liqueur because of this drink. What did we use? The uh Roth um what did we use? Uh Rothman?
+
+[8:59] I think so. No, I think it was the Masinez. Okay, go ahead. All right. So bar spoon for Amboise.
+
+[9:05] I do you by the way, we were open for five over five years. Yeah. Right? And we never ran through that inherited shelf of liqueurs. We did not ever.
+
+[9:15] Uh all right. I'm gonna start over and say the whole spec. So that's the one. I will not interrupt. All right.
+
+[9:19] Uh two dashes of orange bitters, a bar spoon for Amboise, a half ounce of Dolan Blanc, three quarters of an ounce of Bonal, and two ounces of bourbon. We used Old Forester 86. Now, if you don't if you don't want to go out and buy yourself a bottle of frambois, what do you think about what do you think about making your own uh like just taking some raspberry jelly? Jelly. Jelly, not jam.
+
+[9:47] I was doing a demo with someone, but not preserves, because you're trying to get something that's totally clear, right? And adding a finite amount of that to one of the base ingredients and then dissolving it in. Like what about making let's say you want to make a lot of this over time. What about making like a raspberry bourbon? You only have to add a little bit because you only have to make up for a bar spoon of this stuff.
+
+[10:07] I think you might end up adding more sweetness than you're looking for. I mean, I guess you don't need to. Well, depending on it. Then you got a whole bottle of raspberry bourbon. Here's what you here's what I would do.
+
+[10:17] I would take you just want bourbon. I would take 300 or 200 mils of the bourbon, dissolve into it like a couple of, you know, like you know, three spoons of it, and make like a raspberry bourbon syrup. And that you could probably use in more stuff than you could use for Embois, no? Yeah, that's probably true. You're gonna go spend what?
+
+[10:34] How much is a bottle of the uh I don't know. And if you're buying the good stuff, it's expensive, right? If you're buying the nasty stuff, why are you pouring it into your drink? Yeah. You may uh consider buying the St.
+
+[10:45] George Raspberry Liqueur because that is delicious. They make a great product. Alright. So fair enough. Anything else, Matt?
+
+[10:53] Um, so one other thing I was wondering is uh so like in the Dr. J, when you milkwash the rum. Yeah. Uh can you could you just like put a little whey powder in there to get the same sort of frothingess? I don't think so.
+
+[11:06] Uh we tried it once and uh our results weren't good. I think because the the I think the whey powder that's made is uh I think it's been heated. I don't know. I don't know whether it's gonna dissolve. Okay, let me put it this way.
+
+[11:22] When you take uh when you take milk washed liquor and you let it sit, whether you put it in the fridge or whether you put it on the shelf for a week or two, you'll start seeing a flock, flocculation. And that's the whey proteins coming out of solution because they don't really want to stay solubilized in the liquor, right? And so my feeling is you might have trouble actively properly dissolving the whey powder into the booze. And I don't know, what do you think, Jack? I I think that sounds right.
+
+[11:55] It doesn't want to be there to begin with, and like any milkwashed application really makes sense in a large format, like either in a bar setting or for an event or a big party, because you can only really use it for like five days or so, and then the the whole milk washing process is dead because the whey flocks out. Right. But I'll I'll give you the spec you should use at home. Ready, everyone ready, peoples? Everybody ready for this?
+
+[12:19] Here's the Dr. J recipe spec uh for home use. Take yourself uh 500 uh grams of sugar, take yourself 500 milliliters of whole, whole. Whole. Whole.
+
+[12:29] Whole milk. Blend them together until the sugar is dissolved. Add to that an ounce and a quarter, because that should be a little less than an ounce and a quarter of 15% citric acid solution. That is 15 grams of citric acid brought up to 100 grams with water, right? That's roughly it's like two and a half times lime acid strength, two and a half times lemon acid strength in the surface.
+
+[13:08] Stir that into the milk uh syrup, it will immediately thicken. And that pre-thick, but it will not break. And that pre-thickening is what makes this not be grainy when you shake it, and what stops it from ever breaking even after it's shaken. So now you have milk syrup. Remember, it's a little bit tart.
+
+[13:26] Then I will take, I would take acid-adjusted orange juice. The way to acid adjust orange juice is for every liter of uh orange juice. You will add 32 grams of citric acid and 20 grams of malic acid. Dissolve it. You now have lime strength, uh, what's it called?
+
+[13:43] Orange juice. Yeah. Then you do your uh two ounces uh regular rum in this case, then uh three quarters on the milk syrup and three quarters. You might have to adjust a little bit. I have to test it because there's a little bit of acid in the milk syrup, and there's a little bit of sugar in the orange juice, so I'd have to test it, but it's roughly three-quarters, three-quarters, three-quarters.
+
+[14:04] Me personally, I tend to shy everything back as I get older because that's me. But remember, don't shy too much on the syrup because the syrup is what's bringing you the texture in this case. Uh, and then add a couple drops of vanilla tincture and salt, right? Yeah, that's it. And then shake that sucker, and it's very, very close to a milkwash Dr.
+
+[14:22] J. And the milk syrup will last a long time in the fridge and can be made in any quantity and doesn't ruin any boots. That is a great product. All right. Oh, the one thing the one thing I didn't say about the struggler is stir, served up, no garnish.
+
+[14:36] As all Booker Index drinks, yeah, no garnish. No garnish. Except this Corsair, which had a beer. The beer, the pony high life. Yeah.
+
+[14:45] The champagne. That's a great garnish. It's the best garnish. Yeah. You know, a little mini beer.
+
+[14:50] Uh well, when we opened, we had a garnish. We had a horse head uh peel when we opened, but we stopped real quick. I mean, we still had peels for things, but yeah, but that's not a garnish. I mean, I'm not sure. It has a function.
+
+[15:00] I don't consider functional garnishes to be garnishes. I I went and worked somewhere else, Dave, and some people say that an aesthetic purpose is also a function. Like if it looks good. But I'm like the Donald Judd. Not really.
+
+[15:15] I'm like the Rothko, maybe of without the depression, I think. You know what I mean? Like I like color. I like drinks that look pretty. I feel pretty.
+
+[15:26] Oh, so pretty. Right. But I don't, I don't like I don't I don't mind going to other places and and having my drink hookered up. Absolutely. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:34] But like I I don't like to do it myself. I was already agreeing before the the terminology was set in stone, but I'll agree with you. No, he really agrees. What? What?
+
+[15:45] I just I wasn't prepared for the term hookered up, but it's strong. I mean, I don't know, is that bad to say? Am I not allowed to say that? Yeah, no, it's fine. All right.
+
+[15:57] Well, you know, something where you're adding a bunch of stuff to catch someone's attention because you want to be perceived as an object. Right? I mean, that's you wish to be objectified. Or not you wish, but the the system wants you to be objectified, so you add stuff such that you are objectified. Anyway.
+
+[16:20] All right. We're with you on this. All right, all right. You never know. You never know.
+
+[16:24] Like people could take things the wrong way. Yeah. I want people to take things the wrong way. Uh all right. Anyway, Matt, thanks for calling in.
+
+[16:31] Thanks for uh being a supporter. Thank you. No, thanks for the answers. That's great. Um, okay.
+
+[16:38] So we have I don't know who wrote this in because they added it to Nastasia late and she just sent me the email. I don't have it, but it's a hot sauce question. No, I sent it to you. Nastasi's on the phone? I said hello and you said hello, and then you're like, I didn't tell it was you!
+
+[16:51] I thought it was like someone in the background. Yeah, I thought it was someone in the background and Matt Mystic being like, hello! I was pretty positive he didn't know you were on the phone. I was like, what we had no idea. I I honestly thought that Dave dropped it in.
+
+[17:03] Well, so we do have Nastasi the hammer Lopez via telephone. I don't like the hookered up raise. Why? Because it's like it's so sexist. Why is it sexist?
+
+[17:15] Well, you're talking about male hookers? If you if your point is to sell your body, yeah, if your point is to sell your body, not your point, but if if the point is your body is to be sold, then you augment it in a way that you're objectified. Okay. Well, how can a male hooker hooker himself up? Real tight pants, showing the package, like adding extra stuff to the package.
+
+[17:40] Okay, well, it sucks. Yeah. And we've all seen Spinal Tap people. Listen, if you're gonna shove a cucumber in your pants as you're going through the uh metal detector, do not wrap it in aluminum foil. For those of you that have not seen Spinal Tap, which is one of the all-time great movies.
+
+[17:59] It is. I love Spinal Taps so much. Our life is like the scene where they order the Stonehenge, Dave. It really is. Oh man.
+
+[18:09] First of all, anyone out there who has not seen this is Spinal Tap, first, first. I'm not saying you should go smack your mama in the face for not making you go see it. Smack yourself in the face, then go see it. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:21] And then watch the rest of the Christopher Guest catalog and have a great time. Although, have you seen Chicken People, the documentary Chicken People? No. It's like that, but it's But it's real. But it's real.
+
+[18:32] No, no tongue in cheek, just chicken people going to the Ohio Nationals, which is in their own words, the Westminster of Chickens. We gotta go. Why haven't we been to the Westminster of Chickens? Because we are low quality individuals. True.
+
+[18:48] All around. It's unfortunate but true. Unfortunate but true. That's like, you know what I missed this year? Bobby, I miss Bobby Burns Day.
+
+[18:53] I was gonna, I was talking to big game about Haggis. Frankly, I was depressed because I thought the bar would be open. And uh the new bar, whatever name it might have, if it should it exist, will have a Bobby Burns Day with Haggis and bagpipers. Jack and I are going to learn to play bagpipe. You heard it here first.
+
+[19:09] Jack and I are learning, as soon as we get like in the bar space, I'm gonna hire a bagpipe teacher to come in and teach anyone at our bar who wishes to learn to play bagpipes how to play bagpipes. And we will to the as early as possible be playing our own pipes at Bobby Burns Day to pipe in the haggis. And Dave is already pretty good. He's got some moves. Uh well, okay.
+
+[19:34] Everybody, uh, can you name more than one? I cannot. Can you name more than one uh rock and roll tune with bagpipe in it? Um the whole pogs catalog. No, and also A C D C stuff.
+
+[19:49] Nastasia, you are correct. Long way to the top if you want to rock and roll. Yeah. Also, some echo in the bunny man stuff. Really?
+
+[19:56] Yeah, I think so. To me, long way to the top if you want to rock and roll is everything that is good about the bagpipe. Absolutely. Because it's meant to be, even though it's very simple bagpiping, uh, so bagpipers don't probably like it very much. In fact, last time I was in Scotland, I said to the bagpiper, I was like, yo, you listen to Long Way to the Top if you go rock and roll.
+
+[20:14] He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, Oh, I'm so depressed. Because bagpipe is meant to be stirring, it's meant to be stirring music, and that's a stirring song. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
+
+[20:24] Better as an accent ingredient than a lead instrument. Although in Long Way to the Top, it play it, it takes the part of like that guitar hitting the whale. You know what I mean? Beatle, bad. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:36] It's like, it's like so right there. Yeah. Yeah. Great song. It's rough and main.
+
+[20:41] It's long way to the top if you want to rock and roll. Anyway, uh, so we did not do Bobby Burns Day this year. Next year. Because we didn't exist. If we do, eventually exist.
+
+[20:51] Yeah. Nastasia, what's your favorite hot sauce? Uh just the uh, I don't know, Talula. Well, okay. Strong.
+
+[21:00] Uh Jack. All right. Hot sauce is a it's a category with subcategories. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I like Tapatio.
+
+[21:10] Okay. If I want like you're a bartender, clearly no. All right, okay. What else? I use Sriracha in some situations.
+
+[21:15] What kind? Hotcock? Yeah. Yeah. All right.
+
+[21:18] Yeah. You know, standard. Uh Tabasco has a place. And then, you know, sometimes I'll have a crazy extra hot, you know, secret secret basement hot sauce. I made hot sauce recently.
+
+[21:30] Uh my uh my partner McKenzie and I made hot sauce recently, and it was uh we let it we let it go too long. It was a lacto fermented sauce and it got super floral. That's bad? I mean, not not like over floral. It was aggressive.
+
+[21:48] I'll bring you a bottle. We have way too much and we're never gonna go through it. It's kind of coming back around. I tasted it again recently, and it was like, you know. This is a good point, people.
+
+[21:55] When you have something that doesn't technically spoil, i.e. doesn't become unsafe, but changes over time. Just because it goes in quotes, bad, don't throw it away. No, because it's getting better. It could get better again.
+
+[22:08] I've had this happen many times with many products. We also bottled and saved the brine, like the brining liquid. Yeah, which is also funky and coming back around and is great dashed on like a salad or chicken or you know, something that needs a little moisture. Nice. Dave, what's your favorite hot sauce?
+
+[22:25] Uh hard to say favorite, but I guess Chulula is probably a go-to. It's two cholulas in one day. Yeah. That's that's easy. Crystal and a crystal.
+
+[22:35] Yeah. Uh Frank's. Frank's is good. Yeah, Frank's is good. Yeah.
+
+[22:38] All right. But so I'm here, I'm f I'm hearing a favoring of like Southern American, Northern Mexican, vinegar based, peppery stuff. Definitely. Yeah. All right.
+
+[22:47] Okay. So uh the question here is uh fan of the show, wanted to reach out for a quick question. I've been making a lot of hot sauces for a couple of years. His name is Trafton. Okay, hey.
+
+[22:58] I thought it came through. All right. I've been making hot sauces for a couple of years and occasionally have issues with separation. Now I have to admit, when I first read this, I was thinking emulsified sauces. Like I was I've been making like the Hollandaise for a long time and it was breaking.
+
+[23:15] And then I was like, oh, hot sauce, not like hot temperature. Like picante, like as the Deutsch would say, Sharf. You know what I mean? Like hot sauce. By the way, did you know I once ate uh uh at the same falafel place for an entire summer?
+
+[23:34] The summer where I one of the summers where I was uh killing pigs at uh uh at um Columbia Presbyterian uh when I was working in the labs there. The other summer was the summer that every day I had to have a BLT to prove I could still eat pork while I was uh working on the pigs, anyways. So I'm sitting there and uh we're dealing with the falafel guy, and literally I would set it's like the guy was like almost like my cousin because I would talk to him every day. Yeah, all the only interaction I ever had with him was this falafel, I would say that. Then he would say, hot sauce?
+
+[24:06] I would say yes. And then he would say, nice day. And that was it. Every day. But how'd you know how much to pay?
+
+[24:13] I just watched the person in front of me, and I think it was written on the cardboard on the falafel thing. So I just hand him the stuff. There's never he never asked me for money. I would just hand him the money. Dave, I feel bad for your cousins if that's a cousin-like interaction.
+
+[24:26] Well, I mean, in other words, like in terms of the frequency with which I know, I'm just I'm just messing around. Okay, Jack, do you know about uh Jen's dad and Jen's mom? No, I don't I don't think so. What what should I know? Wow, Nastasia pulling out some personal information now.
+
+[24:42] All right, we'll get to that after I finish this question, because I'm actually going to finish this question. Okay. All right. My process is to ferment the mash for a month, no water added, just pepper, fruit, uh koji, shiokoji, and salt, thin out with some vinegar, bring to a simmer, then vitape to be Jesus out of it, which is a setting on the vita prep, by the way. Um occasionally, though, the solids separate out in the fridge and it just kind of looks unappetizing.
+
+[25:07] Is there a technique to prevent this from happening, or should I just use a thickener like Xanthan gum? Uh if so, what percentage? All right, okay. Uh I forgot to actually look up the percentage, sorry. Uh but the trick with Xanthan, when you're by the way, the trick with using Xanthan gum, first of all, I'm gonna go into a couple of things.
+
+[25:24] One, when you're working with uh sauces, right? There's uh, or anything really, when you're talking about there's stabilization and there's emulsification. These are two separate things. So you add, if you're gonna have something that's separating because they are actually uh they repel each other, like oil and water is the classic, uh, or like air and water. Anything like that where it automatically kind of repels each other, you need an actual emulsifier.
+
+[25:51] Emulsifiers are what they call ampiphilic. In other words, they uh have an affinity, a philic, ampi, you know, both for both water and oil. They're usually double-sided kind of molecules. And what those things do is actually lower the energy it takes to keep unlike things together. What sauces like this need is actually not an emulsifier, but a stabilizer.
+
+[26:11] And what a stabilizer does is just thickens the stuff so that the solids can't separate out, or things can't separate out. So Xanthan gum is a uh stabilizer, which is what everyone uses in this scenario. Now, Xanthan has the interesting characteristic that it's hey, Nastasia, what's with the beeping? Uh Xanthan has uh an interesting characteristic in that it forms a light gel that breaks when you move it. So that's why it's really good and can be used in very low percentages, but it's also why when you overuse it, everything feels looks like snot because it's a solid and then suddenly breaks free, so it looks like snot.
+
+[26:45] It's terrible. And has a slimy mucus-y texture, which is terrible. Uh so in general, you try to use it like you know, in the quarter percent range, uh, if you just want to do a stabilized any anything above half in your serious snot range, so like a quarter of a percent. Anyway, the trick with Xanthan is this weight. Like add the Xanthan, stir it in, wait, wait.
+
+[27:09] Let it fully, you know, stir it, hydrate it, let it ful put it in the vita prep when you're doing it, and just wait. If you add a lot and it takes like, you know, 15, 20 minutes and doesn't reach its full thickness for like an hour or something, then you could add now and later have snot, and that's not what you want. And I'll tell you the other secret on how to do this. The professionals, uh, commercial professionals who make things know really well how to make stuff work. So if you have, and this goes for anything, not just hot sauces people.
+
+[27:37] Any of you out there that have cooking-related questions, whenever I want to know how to do something, the first thing I do is I find a product that is similar to what I want to do, but is made professionally. I turn the can or bottle around and I read the ingredients. So if you go back and you look at, for instance, Tabasco sauce, which is the only one I look down there in the radio, which is similar to the ones you guys are talking about in what it is, right? Tabasco sauce separates. Frank's uh separates.
+
+[28:06] All these guys separate uh into rather unappetizing uh McGillas when they are left to sit around. So you shake the sucker beforehand, right? But they're relatively low solids. That's why people don't get freaked out by it. But if you look at the recipes for this, you have Tabasco.
+
+[28:21] The ingredients are vinegar, pepper, salt, right? So they add no stabilizer and it separates. Now, if you go to look at a higher solids brand where separation would be bad, let's say you were going to look at sriracha, right? The ingredients there, and this is what I do. I go look at the ingredients.
+
+[28:38] They have in it chili, right? So there's a high chili, right? Lower liquid, right? So liquid, typically, if you have a very high liquid uh preparation that has solids in it, people expect the solids to settle. They're not as uh freaked out by it.
+
+[28:55] If you have a high solids preparation and liquids settle out of it, A, it's harder to get the liquids back into it by shaking it, and B, people freak out a little bit more. Anyway, so sriracha, uh chili, sugar, because that stuff is sweet, don't even want to fool you. Yeah, garlic, then vinegar, then potassium sorbate and sodium uh bisulfate. So that with those two things, one is an antioxiding as an antioxidant, that's a bisulfate, and assorbate is there to prevent mold growing in that sucker, right? Uh then your boy Xanthan gum is there.
+
+[29:28] So they add Xanthan straight up. And so, like if it's good enough for like the billion dollar hot sauce, yeah, probably good enough for you. You know what I mean? Uh, if you want to look at more pasty things in some things, like if you take a look at uh Gochu Chang, right, those are starched thickened. Or if you look at uh like Sichuan Brah bean paste, these are starch thickened.
+
+[29:48] And so, you know, some brands of Kochichang just use wheat starch because they're cheap and they want to make it fast. Some use fermented rice paste. You can use like, you know, whatever, whatever you, whatever you want. But if you want a thicker thing like that, those are usually thickened and prevented by separating by actually using starch. Anyway.
+
+[29:59] That's my answer. So my answer in general is find something whose characteristics you think are decent, but either you want to make your own or you want to make it in a less kind of industrialized way. Figure out how they do it. That's the same thing. Like people are like, how do you make a coconut cream that doesn't separate?
+
+[30:21] I'm like, have you looked at the back of a Coco Lopez can? Like the back of the Coco Lopez can is like a shotgun poop spray of freaking ingredients because coconut is a difficult material to work with. But Coca Lopez, delicious. Yeah, uh you know what I wish? Here's what I wish.
+
+[30:36] Anyone out there who works for the Coco Lopez Corporation, we're not talking about Anastasia, who I also sometimes call Coco Lopez. But like, but like anyone out there, if you hear me, make for me a slightly less sweet version of Coco Lopez. Not that I think that your product is too sweet, but it's too sweet for me to use in a lot of preparations. If you made a low, for instance, I use Coco Lopez in drinks. I use Coco Lopez in sorbet bases because I'm very lazy.
+
+[31:05] And if I'm gonna make a sorbet tonight, I'm not gonna go through a big rigmarole. I'm gonna get a can of Coca Lopez. But I'd like to be able to have a higher percentage coconut cream without all that dang sugar because the the sugar load is so high that I have to scale back my coconut. Uh I have to drastically scale back my coconut, otherwise I overshoot my sugar bill. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[31:28] Yeah. So it's okay, Dave. Tell tell you tell Jack about Gen Zon's dad. You know what? This is not a cooking related question, but I know, but it's so good.
+
+[31:36] Tell it in two minutes. All right. Within two minutes. Go. Okay, so uh it's gonna give the long, long story.
+
+[31:43] So I have a uh I I I have a stepfather, Gerard, okay, right. And you know, my stepfather, I've known him since I was three. He's you know, he's basically he's he is a dad to me. Like I have my father, and Gerard is also like my father, right? So, like, but because I've known him since I was three, and I was like, you know, I've always just called him Gerard, right?
+
+[32:04] But I always call my parents, so Gerard is like a title to me. Girard is not like a name, it's like a title. He is your Gerard. He yes, yeah. Right.
+
+[32:13] Yes, right? So anyway, so like, yeah, so my kids call him grandpa, all that, right? So it's like yes, it's a title, it became a title. But it happened because I knew him from when I was very young. So I called him Gerard before he was my stepfather because I knew him beforehand.
+
+[32:24] So this is that's the the background. So you don't go go from calling someone anyway. So we're at that, we're at this point, right? So then I start going out with uh, you know, my future wife when I'm I don't know, like 20, 20, 20, 20, right? So I start going out with them, and then just I never referred to her parents as anything, right?
+
+[32:47] Literally never referred to them as anything. Not even their name. No, but not even like no, never directly re I would never I never directly by the way, you can do this as a test. It's very easy to go through life not directly referring to someone unless you're working with them in a work environment. In a work environment, you need to be, yo, Jack, you know what I mean?
+
+[33:09] Like if I didn't refer to you, it would be awkward, right? But m in most uh home and personal settings, there is very there's rarely, if ever, a need to refer to someone. And in fact, I think it's really weird when people overly refer to to people in personal settings. When like when someone sits there and says your name to you over when they're talking to you, you're like, I can see you're staring at me. I know you're talking to me.
+
+[33:29] You don't need to use my name. Like I know you know who I am. This is not necessary. Anyway. So this is to set this to set the scene.
+
+[33:42] So then, you know, a couple years later, we get engaged, we're we're getting married. I still have never referred to them because of all, like, I've always felt very close to them. Like, I always really like them. Like, you know, they they've always felt like they're part of my family. Like Jen and I were very serious, very fast.
+
+[33:59] And so, like, you know, it was always kind of a serious thing. So I never really wanted to call them by their first names. Yeah. Right? Even your Girard.
+
+[34:08] Right, but that but that I'm just bringing that as a as a separate thing because that's a part of my life that you need. So, like, I already have this weird thing with honorifics and and names, right? And I'm not the kind of guy who normally thinks it believes in calling your parents by their name, which is why I'm saying Girard is a uh a title, right? So then I have this new family, right, that I'm becoming a part of. They embrace me, I embrace them.
+
+[34:33] What am I gonna call them by their first names? No, it's not respectful, I don't think, for me to call them by their first names, but at the same time, I'm not gonna pull a mom and dad on them when I have Gerard over here and I'm calling Gerard Gerard. So I can't call them mom and dad because that's a slap in the face to Girard, right? But uh at the same time, I can't, I'm not gonna call them by their first name because it doesn't feel right to me. So instead, and bear in mind, I started going out with Jen in the year of our Lord, 1992.
+
+[35:04] All right? Valentine's Day, 1992. Is that why? Is that the year you were? I'm 91.
+
+[35:09] 91. All right, okay. So I started going out with their 92, and I have never once ever referred to them at all. I see them all the time. I see them all the time.
+
+[35:22] Everyone's like, everyone's like, but what if your father-in-law, what if your father-in-law was on fire? This is Nastasia. What if your father-in-law was on fire and you had to tell him, I was like, first of all, he's gonna know he's on fire. Believe me, as someone who is caught on fire. An easier one.
+
+[35:38] All right. You and him are the only people in the house, okay? And the phone rings and it's for him, but he's on the other side of the house. How do you get him? It's for you.
+
+[35:49] What if there's two people in the house? And they're both on the other side of the house. It's never hey, this has never happened. I go get them. Not for them.
+
+[35:58] You go get them. Or let's say Dax is there. Get your grandpa. Right? Or like you can always you always have someone next to you that you can use as a through furl.
+
+[36:13] So you're like, if if Jen's there, you're like, hey Jen, you're mom, bah. There's always a through furlough. It's not hard, people. The fact that you've developed so many workarounds rather than just having something to call these people is the most it's one of the most Dave Arnold things that I have ever heard. It's fantastic.
+
+[36:33] Anyways. Thank you, Nastasia, for bringing us to light. It's fantastic. You know, it's not usual that we go this personal on the cooking issues. And I know how I feel about it.
+
+[36:42] What do you think, Dave? Uh a little personal, but I like it. Yeah. Kit wrote in, hey, Nastasia, Dave, Dave, and also Jack, although Kit did not know this. You think it's I have a simple question regarding the lime acid and champagne acid recipes in liquid intelligence.
+
+[37:02] What is your recommended uh storage vessel? Glass Cheaters? Yeah, just a glass bottle. Non-reactive. Yeah.
+
+[37:09] Do I need to be concerned about UV light or a particular material? I mean, I wouldn't put it in a metal that's gonna react with the acid. But other than that, I mean I've never done long-term storage in stainless, but I've done short term, maybe in tins and stuff. When I keep it at home, if I'm gonna use it for anything, I just keep it in like a clear glass swing top bottle, and I keep it in the fridge. Yeah.
+
+[37:31] Is there a time frame within which I should use the product once in solution? Uh finally got my Searzole in November. Love it. Can't wait to buy a spinzall. Thanks.
+
+[37:38] Nice. Uh speaking of which, Searzol's back in stock, people. Uh back in stock. Oh yeah. All right.
+
+[37:45] Now here's the thing. So lime acid, I'm assuming you mean lime acid and champagne acid in things. Uh champagne acid we tend to use on its own. It's it's the weird one that we tend to use on its own. Yeah.
+
+[37:56] It tends to come out of solution. Yeah. So it's got crystals. You'll see crystals in the bottom of it, sometimes a slight haze in it. It's still good.
+
+[38:05] Shake it. Shake it. It's still good. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[38:08] Um. Oh no, Dave, it's not back in stock. It just went off again. Oh. People, we have our own ones coming that are going to be here in under a month, and we control when they're on when they're in stock.
+
+[38:21] So boo mic yah. Anyway, so uh back to the champagne uh lime lime acid. So if the question is, is if you dope a fruit juice with uh acid, what's its shelf time? And this is entirely subjective. Let me ask you a question, Kit.
+
+[38:38] How long do you think orange juice is good for? And uh, or how long do you think or uh grapefruit juice is good for? And the and then whatever that answer is, it's the same when you acid adjust it. So like it doesn't, I don't think change it much in one way or the other. So there are some people who think orange juice is only good right after it's pressed.
+
+[39:01] And if you believe that, then the acid ain't gonna change it. But uh there are other people who believe orange juice lasts for weeks and lime acid ain't gonna change it. And uh, you know, the the the thing is, and I should never say this because uh of something which I've referred to before, and I don't have time to get into it. If someone cares about it, ask me, I'll talk next week. The the law of incremental crappiness.
+
+[39:26] So, you know, in general, I try to organize my life around not violating the law of incremental crappiness, right? Not putting myself on that slippery slope to Dreckland. But one of the things that I will incrementally crappy myself on, and when you do do things that are incrementally crappy, people, you have to put a big flag in it and be like, okay, I understand I've done something incrementally crappy here. Don't let yourself slide further. But uh there's someone lit a match.
+
+[39:55] Was that you, Dave? Or someone had a birthday cake? Smells like sulfur in here. Are we about to die? Uh yeah, luckily that exit isn't real.
+
+[40:02] So okay, good. Uh so the the one thing I will say is is that the quality of juice in a three-quarters use as uh an acidifier in a cocktail is not as important as when you're downing a glass of OJ. The OJ you use in uh a shake on a three-quarter basis, that I don't think is as important as it would be if you were drinking. It's not that it's not important, but it's not as important as it would be when you're drinking a uh a glass of orange juice. If you can use high quality orange juice, use high quality orange juice.
+
+[40:41] But I'm just saying, and but where where it says the three quarters of crappy over the hill lime juice, I think spoils the cocktail. Yeah, absolutely. So that's what I'm gonna say about that. And the the adding of acid to the orange juice is it tricks your brain a little bit so that it's harder to recognize the quality of the juice after it's been acidulated. So that I think that's the reason that it matters less because you're not used to tasting orange flavor at that high of acid levels.
+
+[41:09] Right. So what do you say, Dave? What's that quick break? Uh sure, take a break back with more cooking issues. Heritage Foods got its start when Patrick Martin's first step foot onto Frank Reese's Kansas farm in 2001.
+
+[41:39] Back then, Frank was the only farmer in America raising true heritage turkeys with recorded lineages tracing back more than a hundred and fifty years. Patrick New Instantly found a unique moment and opportunity to go beyond acknowledging these breeds as being jeopardized and to actually do something to save them. Patrick asked Frank to ramp up production and made a promise to him that if he raise them, Heritage Foods USA would sell them. That was the moment that Heritage Foods slogan, eat them to save 'em was born. By creating a market for delicious meats from heritage Breeds, we can ensure they'll be around for generations to come.
+
+[42:13] Plus, Heritage Breeds just tastes a whole lot better. Learn more at HeritageFoods USA.com and use the code HeritageRadio for two free pork chops with your first order, brother. So how do you track people to make sure they don't just re-sign up and get two free pork chops? I don't know. I'd have to talk to accounting about that.
+
+[42:32] Yeah, also, did you did you sample the banjo part from the Land of the Lost theme song? No, uh, but I can't say where it's from. Marshall Will and Holly, Routine Expedition, Greatest Earthquake Ever Known. Ever known. That's a really good theme song, by the way.
+
+[42:50] For those of you that don't know the original Land of the Lost, it is a very strong theme song. I feel that 70s theme songs, maybe it's because I was a kid, but I feel they were so strong back in the day. Gilligan. Gilligan. They were just more than a little bit.
+
+[43:03] A little early, yeah. Different strokes. Oh, different strokes is great. Sanford and Sun. Yeah.
+
+[43:08] Rockford Files. By the way, I just listen to the Rockford Files in Sanford and Sun sometimes on my on my phone just to hear them because I think they're so good. You know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. Like, where are those theme songs now?
+
+[43:21] I don't know. I feel like the theme song is a lost art. I feel, yeah. Yeah. It's too bad.
+
+[43:26] It's very, very too bad. Uh, speaking of uh, not not too bad. Speaking of the opposite of that, uh, you guys uh I just for the first time uh a week or so ago went to the Brooklyn Museum. Uh and I talked to you about this yesterday, Jack. Uh Dave, you ever been to the Brooklyn Museum?
+
+[43:40] Uh no, actually. I know Nastasia's never been because she hates Brooklyn. Uh it's true. Can you hear me? Yeah.
+
+[43:46] Yeah. Yeah. Uh but the Brooklyn Museum turns out is a fantastic museum. Like, it is a gem. It's awesome.
+
+[43:54] In fact, they have a really cool uh feature where where you're in, they have live art historians. And you can you can do their app, but I was like, hell no, I'm not downloading the app because they give you just a text number, and you just you're walking around the museum. You you could take a picture of anything in the museum, text it to them and be like, hey, what's up with this? And they're like, and they're like, and they answer you live, real art historians, they'll do the research, ask their other art historians, and give you answers. So I was like, yo, this fallen angel, his sword's melted.
+
+[44:24] What's up with that? And then they answer all this stuff. Wow. And it's like the coolest museum thing I think I've ever experienced. The ability to have a live expert without having to go through that the monstrosity that is the walking tour of a museum.
+
+[44:38] You know what I mean? It's like not that I you know, if you give walking tours museums, I'm sure your walking tour is great. And obviously, Ben Stiller needed that walking tour in that at the museum, so it's not all bad. But I'm saying, like, you know what I mean. I don't necessarily want to do that.
+
+[44:50] So but on your own time, you can just walk around amazing, amazing. But uh the reason to go there, and the reason I'm talking about this for food is uh through March 4th, they always have the main thing, but uh so there's uh an artist, her name is Judy Chicago, and uh her most famous work is uh the dinner party, and it's this big triangular table with uh plates on it, and it's representing the contributions that women have made uh to like history, society, you know, through history, starting with ancient times and going up to today. Now, uh it's and it's amazing, and it took like a lot of uh took a lot of work. Uh and so every woman, there's uh I forget, it's like 400 women, and they're represented by like 32 plates, and so the big triangle had the names of them are all written on tiles on the floor, and then the 32 or whatever representative people have their own place settings that's done personally for them, about them. And like it's been you know, there's a lot of modern criticism about it because the the women that are chosen are it's basically you know very Eurocentric uh and very kind of uh rich, like skewed, rich upper class woman uh uh contributions.
+
+[46:03] So like kind of classic second wave like criticism of second wave feminism. But remember, it was done in the 70s, so you know, cut it some slack. I think a lot of people now, a lot of people make a mistake of trying to view things that were done before through today's eyes, which you know you should try to put yourself in the whatever, but it's a good criticism, level the criticism so people know it's there, but I still think it's a thing you should go see. Still enjoy the work. Still enjoy the work.
+
+[46:24] Yeah. Uh but only through March 4th, they have an exhibition attached to it called the Roots of the Dinner Party, where you can go see about it. And um, but is there a caller or something? Let me say this one thing. There's one of the things I think is really interesting, and we can discuss after whatever Dave is gonna tell me.
+
+[46:37] But uh, and this has to do with restaurants, not so it's not just dinner party like a about you know, food-related food show, but on the outside of the exhibition is a huge, and it was exhibited at the time with it, a huge mural of a picture of everyone that worked on the project and a bio of it. And I thought it was really interesting. This is why I was talking to Jack about it yesterday, an interesting idea in the 70s on how to still push your own brand, Judy Chicago, but give credit to everyone who's worked on uh on a project. And I think it's a a very interesting time now in the food and beverage world about how how credit works, what credit means, uh, and how to give it to people. What are you gonna say, Dave?
+
+[47:20] Uh sorry, I was just gonna say we got time for one more question. We got five minutes. Five minutes? That's it. It's only 54 over here.
+
+[47:25] Were you kicking me off beforehand? Well we got a suck. First he schedules someone. Hey, because I'm always late. He schedules someone in the slot right before us.
+
+[47:35] You know? You know what I mean? Not cool. You could get here at noon. I mean, that's an option.
+
+[47:40] I actually was here at noon today. Was I not? No, no, no. And then I had to wait for the show beforehand to get off. Yeah, all of like two minutes.
+
+[47:48] Oh. Oh. You're wasting time right now. You got time for one more question. Come on.
+
+[47:52] What am I gonna do? All right. So listen, uh, we got Nils from San Francisco. I don't know the answer, so I'm gonna have people uh Jack will know what book to look at. My question is about making my own vermouth.
+
+[48:01] I keep a kosher diet, so I cannot use most commercial vermouths because they're wine-based. Unfortunately, the kosher market in this area is still small, and so there aren't any non-crappy options available. Do you have any advice recipes on making a vermouth in a home setting? Uh thanks uh for making my Tuesday commute so much more enjoyable, Nils. So would you have any good books on making vermouth, Chad?
+
+[48:19] No, I don't, not on making vermouth, no. I mean I've never made my own. I mean, I I I have theories about how I could go around it, but I was hoping you would have a book. Chat room, hook us up. Hit me back on Twitter on uh on a good vermouth thing, and then we'll send it off to Nils on the next week.
+
+[48:32] Uh so Jeremy wrote me in about replacing my uh range, but I guess I'll read that next week because I don't have time to even read it according to uh you know grandpa Dave over here kicking me off. So should I talk about uh I didn't make time, I just live by it. Oh should I talk about uh in the next couple of minutes? Should I talk about tree exudates? Should I talk about whatever you can do in three minutes airpods?
+
+[49:00] AirPods. AirPods. Not really cooking related. All right. Well, I here's my quick AirPod review, right?
+
+[49:06] I like the AirPods. I just got the AirPods. This is a non-hipsters review of AirPods, right? Functionally fantastic. Makes calls a lot easier.
+
+[49:13] By the way, I'm not a believer in using earphones in the kitchen. You should never use earphones in the kitchen, I think. Music playing is fine, but you need that, you need the call in response of the kitchen. Yeah, no earphones in the kitchen. No, that's just severely dangerous.
+
+[49:25] But anyway, so everything everyone says that the air airpods are good for is true. Everything they say it's sh crap for is true. This is my one point. If you use ear protection in your job, for instance, chainsaw helmets, they do not work well with chainsaw helmets. Ain't nothing worse than being knee deep in muddy Pakassandra garbage with a chainsaw, like tripping over yourself when it's wet and crappy outside, and then like having you know that antenna sticking out of the ear pods, rip it out of your ear every time you flip the earmuff over the dang uh things.
+
+[49:57] And this, by the way, this goes with anyone that uses two-stroke engines or is on a tarmac anywhere, airpods, no good. No good. So quickly, in the two seconds I have left, tree exudates. Uh, I've been recently getting back on the Frankincense. What are your thoughts on Frankincense in cooking?
+
+[50:13] I actually have no thoughts. I have no experience. No? No. My wife Jen hates Frankincense.
+
+[50:18] She's like she's like, she's like, smells like Catholic Church. I'm like, how do you know? You're not Catholic. Anyway, but like, I mean, she has been to Catholic Church. But point being, I you think it's too strong, Saz?
+
+[50:27] It's like it's Catholic Church. It's absolutely Catholic Church, yes. Yeah. Well, all right. What do you think on Kios Mastia?
+
+[50:33] A Mastika. You like that stuff or no? No, not really. Anyway, I'm here to make a pitch for tree exudates and other stuff that oozes out of things and solidifies and is used. This was super important stuff in the ancient Near East and uh, you know, in Greece, that entire whole area there, super important.
+
+[50:54] Think about all the stuff. When G when baby Jesus was born, two things that they brought that guy were tree exudates. You got your myrrh and you got your frankincense, right? Think about this gum Arabic, all from this area. Uh mana from heaven, tree exudate, right?
+
+[51:09] Uh you got your uh what's it? You gotta say myrrh, you got your uh sh um mummy, the word mummy. So, mummy was originally an exudate out of the ground that was mistranslated as mummy, the the preserved human. Yeah, and that's why Europeans chummed up mummies and sold them to people to consume as a medicine. But another exudate.
+
+[51:31] So I'm just gonna make a small plea here for uh, you know. Consider the exudate. Consider the exudate people cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[52:06] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[52:33] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This piece was brought to you by Roberta. Roberta's pizza.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:25] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. No horn. Wow, nice.
+
+[0:49] Join us. Dave's pissed at me, people, because I'm effing with the microphone here. Because stop touching it. You already broke it. Oh, I did not break it.
+
+[0:57] Did you see that epoxy on the shock mount? That's because of you. Why can't the mic point from the why can't the back of the mic point down and the front of the mic point up? It can if you loosen the screws properly. No, look, what?
+
+[1:12] Just twisting it. No, no, because it does the back court. You're just nostalgia's works. So sit in her chair. Oh, hell no.
+
+[1:19] He doesn't want to. Oh, hell no. Hell no. We're in the ongoing battle of the of the We Are the Road Crew. Lemme.
+
+[1:30] What is that? Oh, those screws. Oh my god. What's up, technical genius, Dave? Although this.
+
+[1:37] I went to college too. Uh wow. All that time. So easy, Mr. Technology.
+
+[1:44] Dave's like, don't touch the shock mount again. You jerk. Or it's gonna give you an electric shock. Oh, I wish. Wouldn't that be awesome?
+
+[1:51] That would be so so Robert Plant of made again. I got a list of people I want to shock. Yeah. Did he get electrocuted? He got wicked electrocuted.
+
+[1:59] They uh they used to have non-isolated equipment, and he was out playing, I think in the rain. Is it plant or was it Daltry? One of those guys. Dave, do you know? I think it was Roger Daltrey, actually.
+
+[2:11] Yes, Adultry, I think it was Doltree, right? Because he's spinning that microphone, probably stressing the hell out of that XLR. Yeah, yeah, and then it's just like like rain, like on a non-isolate. Well, if you if Dave, you ever played with like really old amplifiers? Uh yeah.
+
+[2:27] Yeah. I used to have like a 1970s vintage custom with a K vinyl uh upholstered like Eddie Munster style bass amp. Okay. And that mother, that mother used to throw 120 volts across my uh across the barrels of my connectors, like on the regular. So I would just be like, oh, like even just like normal without water.
+
+[2:48] That old 70s equipment wasn't uh, you know, safe. You know what I mean? I don't think it was Robert Dalton. Wasn't about safe though. Wasn't about safe, it's about rock and roll, right?
+
+[2:59] That's what I'm saying. Uh speaking of which, Nastasia, uh the Hammer Lopez, how you doing? Good. So this is not cooking related, but I'll get it out of the way now. For those of you that uh, and by the way, Johnny Hunter's gonna call in in a couple of minutes to is this gonna be a fun personal story?
+
+[3:13] No. Well, Nastasia Lopez hates, hates, hates country music, right? Yeah, she hates country music. Well, no, that's not true. She met Merle Haggard and was like, so what?
+
+[3:23] Literally, we flew to California to meet Merle Haggard. Yeah, but you meet like one of the like the let like the all-time legends, and you're like, meh, but I did it for you. Anyways. I don't like country music because Dave loves oh, because he does this annoying thing where every time this a song that he likes that's a country song plays, he will be like, God, can you believe he she left him? Can you believe she left him with the kids?
+
+[3:50] And I'm every single thing. Okay, Nastasia hates Nastasia hates story songs. And the only thing she hates more than story songs is discussing story songs. But he discusses the same song. Well, because it's it's the same story.
+
+[4:02] It's like song. Any song. Any, any song. Any. So anyway, so there's a lot of things.
+
+[4:06] Like uh Turner. What's that one? Where's the Midnight Train to Georgia? You're like, what? Why is she gonna go back down with him when he's bringing her down and she has a good job in New York and he wants to go back to Georgia like a loser?
+
+[4:19] It's a mistake. It's a mistake. Yeah, why are you putting it all on her? I know. Well, no, I'm saying she shouldn't give up her dreams just for how good can this guy be.
+
+[4:26] Odds are they're gonna break up when they go back to Georgia anyway. Yeah, true. You know what I mean? They can't even afford the daytime train. It's no good.
+
+[4:33] Anyway, that that's not my point. But so she hates story songs. There's a famous uh David Allen Co. song, he didn't write write it, but it in which he jokingly tries to hit everything that a country music song is about. So it's it's uh trains, trucks, prison, uh, drinking, uh, mama, and rainstorms.
+
+[4:53] So this one verse hits all of that. But I found, and he did that on purpose as a joke. I found a song, it hits almost everything that Nastasia hates. It's by a guy named Johnny Paycheck, who the only song you might know by Johnny Pacheck is uh uh The Only Hell My Mama Ever Raised. He also wrote uh I'm gonna take this job and take this job and shove it.
+
+[5:10] Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyways, so Johnny Paycheck has a song that Nastasi would hate more than anything. It's hyper twangy, bad production value, like white dude music. Already she hates it. Then, already done.
+
+[5:21] It's a story song, done. But get this. Get this. It's a story about him on a train. It's called Billy Jack Washburn, right?
+
+[5:30] And he finds this guy almost dead. He's hoboing on a train when he gets out of jail. So that's everything right there. He's drinking. He finds this guy almost dead in a boxcar.
+
+[5:39] He becomes like a father to him. Then the guy falls in between the trains and gets crushed and dies. He picks up the body, only then does he look at the ID and finds out is his long-lost brother. Yeah, you like that? That's everything you hate.
+
+[5:50] I'm gonna play it constantly. And discuss it. And discuss it constantly. I'll be like this. Can you believe this?
+
+[5:56] What's there to discuss? How do he knew it wasn't his own brother? He'll go into the entire guy's life. I'm like, how old was the mom? The guy says he hasn't been home in 22 years, doesn't even know he has a brother.
+
+[6:06] What are the freaking odds that 22 years later he's on the tracks and he becomes a mentor to his own brother? What are the odds? What are the odds? Yeah, it's like an ESPN, like play by play, but every time the song comes on. Oh my god, by the way, uh, I don't know how to find it, people, but uh the Seattle, one of the Seattle play-by-play people, right, did a play-by-play of a drunk person trying to break into a truck with a broom handle, or at the end he like falls off of a roof, but it's it's the funniest like sports play-by-play ever.
+
+[6:35] Nastasi is very angry by the way that the Patrick. No, I am not. Really? I thought you were here as Pat. Nobody likes the Patriots.
+
+[6:40] Nastasia does. They won a lot. They've won a lot. I think it was good. Did you cook anything for the Super Bowl?
+
+[6:46] I did, I did chili. Well kind of chili cheese. Tom Brady wouldn't eat that because he doesn't need nightshades. What? That's true.
+
+[6:53] That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of my. That's so stupid. He's the male goop. He's a he's a moron. Like the fact of the matter is, he's wearing a helmet all the time and like full body armor for playing football.
+
+[7:05] Maybe that's why he thinks he doesn't need any sunscreen. He's wearing a make America Great Again hat. Oh, Jesus. So listen, my point is is it doesn't eat nightshades. So no potatoes.
+
+[7:15] Isn't he also a vegan? Yeah. What the hell does he eat? He's not gonna eat potatoes, which are semi-related, right? Tomatoes.
+
+[7:21] Eggplant, tobacco, eggplant. I mean, just like Goop, he pushes this whole health lifestyle that you need to have a lot of money to actually live. What? Gwenneth Peltra. Gwyneth Paltrow, pseudoscience.
+
+[7:32] Her name is Goop? No. No, she her company. Oh, she has a company called Goop? You don't know about this?
+
+[7:36] I feel like you would explain it to him just. I feel like you would rail against this. I w I'm I'm willfully ignoring it, because apparently Nastasia has explained it to me. And I I must be willfully ignoring its existence. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:49] Um as people who listen to the show for a long time knows Nastasia does not actually make chili. Nastasia makes tomato beef. Yeah, but what I did is I bought that powder, the McCormick chili. What the hell's wrong with you? Why the hell would you use that?
+
+[8:06] You know. Making chili is so freaking easy. Like making chili, all you get all you need are dried chilies, some tomato products, cumin, a couple other spices, garlic, and meat. You know, onions. What the hell you then I hid the pack deep into my trash before my friends came.
+
+[8:25] But that's so ridiculous. Well, at least, thank Christ, your uh your chili had cumin in it, which you don't normally And I made Philly cheesesteaks. Oh, I love those. Okay, how'd you do it? What how do you make it?
+
+[8:37] I had these bags of sous vide steak. From whom? That's a little too fancy for a full cheesesteak. Um somebody. Somebody who you shall not name.
+
+[8:47] Voldemort, Voldemort major. Alright. Uh, how are those? Good with Provolone. Provolone?
+
+[8:54] Yeah. All right. That's legit. It doesn't have to be whiz. I say that as a Philadelphian.
+
+[8:58] Okay, uh, yeah. So I hear something I I will say that is not standard, not approved, but I like anyway. When I make cheesesteaks, I'm a Gruyere guy. I like that. That would be good too.
+
+[9:09] Fancy. I should do it. Oh, yeah. Now like Dave's too fancy. Can't make cheesesteaks with Dave.
+
+[9:14] Uh I don't know if that's some sort of like no half French, half gump. Full ass to gump. Johnny is on the line. We got Johnny Hunter on the line. I gotta find uh Nastasia's uh questions.
+
+[9:27] Hold on a second. Hey Johnny, how you doing? How's it uh going up there in Madison? This is Johnny Hunter, the underground meats, underground food, and basically anything that you can like make or age underground. Johnny Hunter will do.
+
+[9:40] Have you ever actually aged anything underground? Made anything underground? No, have you ever like shark or anything? What? We've like, I mean, I mean we've buried vegetables to ferment them and such, but how was it?
+
+[9:55] Uh good. Yeah. Kind of green. You never made anything. We've done like the whole like whole pig.
+
+[10:03] Oh, cooking in them underground, sure. You know what the thing is, like is it really advantageous or is it just fun to do? Because I mean you can't it's hard to control the temperature of the earth. You know what I mean? Like it's it's just a fun thing to do.
+
+[10:14] Yeah. All right, yeah. I I buy that. You know what? Like I as I'm getting older, I'm okay with things that are just fun.
+
+[10:20] Except for in the new bar, I'm having Johnny. See what you think. I'm having a uh like a vicious, like almost drawing blood coming to blows argument over ice in cocktails. We'll get into it later when we actually open the bar. I'll have Don Lee on, we'll have Jack, and we'll just discuss the merits and demerits of uh ice and cock.
+
+[10:40] Nastasia is like scooting across the There's a SpaceX launch at 1.30. I need to charge my phone. Nastasia is charging her phone instead of listening to you, Johnny. I don't know how that makes you feel. Anyway, we have a what?
+
+[10:44] SpaceX launch. Oh, there's a yeah, there's a huge rocket launch later today that apparently is like some sort of deep space equivalent. And everyone knows Nastasia is a huge fan of the Musk family Robinson there. Yeah, wait, aren't they shooting a Tesla into space or something? What happens?
+
+[11:06] Why would you do that? What happens if it re enters the atmosphere and crushes a city? Where's the charging station in space? No, it's just gonna get in the orbit. Why would you want a car in space?
+
+[11:15] Cool. Like, won't it eventually come crashing down to Earth again? And it'll burn up. It'll burn up. You gotta design it to burn up.
+
+[11:21] You know what I mean? It's like they probably did. It's like, although like old school. The thing is, like when you throw like like big objects into space, now everyone on Earth has to track that sucker and be like, let's not hit that when we launch something. I mean, it's kind of like a real it's a real pooping on everybody's like it's like the you know, it's like pooping on somebody else's lawn, really.
+
+[11:41] You know what I mean? I mean, I want a Tesla. Nastasia, by the way, I don't know if you know this. Nastasia is going to take delivery of a Tesla sometime in the summer. It sounds like I'm rich, but I waited in line for the thousand dollar deal to be to pre-order your Tesla.
+
+[11:56] And those are the people, by the way, Nastasia like makes all of these stories. I can't, I can't afford cable. I don't deserve cable. You guys must have sold a billion Sears all. Oh, Jesus, Sears all's back off stock again.
+
+[12:09] It's so irritating. People, like, I can't control it. Nastasi and I have a set of uh we have a a bunch of them coming in that we will own and that we will sell in a month. And Amazon, I don't know what the people, I want you to know Amazon is literally Jeff Bezos spends all of his time making Super Bowl commercials right now and not enough time worrying about what the hell's going on. That was terrifying, by the way.
+
+[12:29] Right, right. They lost, they lost, lost, lost, over a thousand Sears alls that by the way, they have not paid us for. True or false instance. True. But we paid for them.
+
+[12:46] We paid. We we paid. Yeah. Customers angry at us, even though we've paid. Amazon not paid.
+
+[12:52] Weak. All right, so Johnny, this is why you're on. Someone, uh, somehow uh a question came in to for the show that you did, and somehow it didn't make it through. So I'm gonna read it now. You ready?
+
+[13:02] Yep. All right. Fairly new to charcuterie, so I was excited. What? I sent him the question, so he knows it too.
+
+[13:08] Oh, well, I have to read it anyway because the people who, you know, aren't Johnny or you. I'm just letting you know. Okay. I'm fairly new to charcuterie, so I was excited to hear about a potential curing-focused episode. Well, we're doing the, you know, we're doing the extended extended.
+
+[13:20] Because that was an extended episode, which I think people enjoyed, Johnny. Uh I got a lot of really positive feedback on that. Yeah, it the extensions are always the best. For some reason, we're sitting there like, you know, eating pizza, just talking garbage anyway. Uh below are a few questions I have.
+
+[13:33] Uh I've included pictures of my curing chamber, which I can't see here, and my Panchetta. Uh, although, okay. Uh they're not on there? Uh I don't know. It doesn't matter because people on the radio can't see it, so it doesn't matter.
+
+[13:45] It could be a picture of a goat, or it could be a picture of SpaceX. It doesn't matter because people on space can't. Johnny, did you see the photos? Yeah, I see the photo. All right.
+
+[13:53] If you scroll down, you'll see it. The chamber has a simple PID for uh temperature and a humidifier is outside the chamber on a humidity controller. There's an IP 57, by the way, IP 57 people is just a like a splash, uh splash and dust rating kind of thing. Uh fan on the same controller output that pulls the humidified air. Uh I added a chute to guide the mist, yada yada.
+
+[14:12] So it's, you know, it's not a it's a it's a fairly well set up uh and sounds like a fairly well set up system. The fan brings in like major props to Tom on setting up a really nice chamber. Yeah, right. The fan brings in freshest basement air uh and allows the chamber to be uncluttered. I didn't want to refill the humidifier, so it's plumbed into my water line uh with copper.
+
+[14:29] I mean that's that's badass right there. Uh and a float in the humidifier. Yeah, Tom, you but what you gotta do is you gotta like like rent yourself out now because the truth of the matter is, Tom, that people who like and you know, Johnny, you tell me the majority of people who do this for a living don't have time to go find a float switch and like take copper lines and plumb it in and get it all working. So if you want like uh I don't and all but unfortunately, chefs don't have a lot of money, but they will buy the stuff. If you show up and set this up, they will give you free whatever for like a long time.
+
+[15:03] You'll like become like you know, most valued customer, you'll get like free crap. So you it's very easy if you have a skill like this to trade this skill for free dinners. Am I right, Johnny? Yeah, absolutely. Tom, keep me a call.
+
+[15:17] Uh okay. Um questions. How important is it to measure the he says AW? For those of you who don't know what that is, that's water activity. I don't know why it's AW and not WA, but a capital A little W stands for the water activity.
+
+[15:32] And um, I'll read the question and then I'll say something and then I'll let John talk about it. Uh, how important is it to monitor uh water activity? Is weight accurate enough? I'd like to adjust the humidity early in the cure based on moisture content to prevent case hardening. Uh so what that what that means is is uh if you try to dry uh meats too quickly, you dry out just the surface, and the inside stays very wet, and that messes with the cure for the entire time.
+
+[15:54] It's like it's it's a big it's a big problem. So that's why you really want to regulate humidity and not dry too quickly. Anyway, but would like some data behind it. Ideally, uh I'd have continuous data logging of the moisture or weight, but I'm not sure of that feasibility. If water content is the best bet, any equipment recommendations.
+
+[16:08] Okay, now I'm gonna stop here. I'm gonna say my piece and let Johnny go. Water activity without specialized equipment is extremely difficult to measure. Uh most commercial sausage producers are measuring, I believe, water activity. Old school measurements for ham are done by weight just because it's the only thing that's easily feasible, but you do have to worry about uh case hardening.
+
+[16:30] Now, what are your thoughts, Johnny? Well, that that was what I was gonna say is that you know, weight doesn't necessarily mean that there's not loose water in the product, and that could potentially lead to some sort of bacterial growth that you weren't seeing. So what I would say though, a couple things. One, doing a whole muscle like panchetta is less dangerous than doing something like sausage because you're not having the grind step. Right.
+
+[16:58] The second thing is um I think you can just take visual cues to whether or not the product turned out. So if you if you recognize case hardening in the product, then that's the problem if it smells off if it's too soft or moist at any point. Um I'd be worried about that. Only question I had was whether or not he used nitrates here, because botulism would be the one thing that would make me a little bit concerned with the rolled up panchetta. Right.
+
+[17:29] I mean, like one thing I I would s I I'll you know, like and I'd like you to talk about this for a second before I go on to the second part of the question, but I think something that uh people kind of need to go back to the basics on is kind of the two things. One, the concept of multiple hurdles and uh second is like knowing whether or not you're riding on the edge, right? So like if you're if you're in industry, you know, consistency is the most important thing. Uh, you know, there's safety first, then consistency afterwards, and so monitoring uh and and also they're pushing the limits of trying to do things as fast as possible. So they need to get their the water activity measured, uh, because you know, it's consistent, it's you know the answers, blah, blah, blah, right?
+
+[18:12] But uh if you you know, if you aren't uh uh acting that way, if you're not living at the edge of the envelope of safety, right, you have multiple hurdles protecting you. So Johnny points out nitrates. Nitrates are gonna protect against uh botulism, right? Also most people when they're curing uh non whole muscle cuts are um letting it ferment to a way lower pH than is necessary. Very not that many people are going for that like super sweet, super s low acid, although I do enjoy those uh sausages, right?
+
+[18:44] So you know, you have your nitrates, nitrites, you have your uh your acid from your initial um ferment, and then most people are also drying it more than is necessary and probably have the one thing that they people probably do mess with in the wrong direction, I would say is the salt. Uh but like you when you have like those m all of those multiple hurdles, the chance that any one thing is gonna sc screw you, I think is relatively low. Now if you're doing a minimally dried product that is uh, you know, not been fermented and it has a you know, if you take away a bunch of those hurdles, well now you gotta start worrying. I mean, what do you think, Johnny? Yeah, I mean, if he was pulling something out that would look too wet and he wasn't using nitrates and you know it smelled off, you know, that's then you start to get concerned.
+
+[19:29] But if you know the correct saltine and the time that allowed for saltine, and if he's following the recipes from the books that he mentions later, then I'm not too worried about it. The one thing I was gonna mention is you can get a third party to test the water activity if you really are concerned. Um that could happen at almost any food safety lab or you can send off product and it's like a $30 test. I I had this idea, Johnny. You ready for this idea?
+
+[19:58] And I was never able to get it to work. But yeah, are you tell me whether you're ready? Because I think I think this could work. So the water activity, right? You should shouldn't you be able because the water activity is measuring kind of like how much free water there is in a product, right?
+
+[20:17] So something something people don't think about is they they they think for instance that something that thickens things lowers the water activity. Not true. Not true at all, right? So like gels and anything you add that all it's doing is making it appear like the thing is drier isn't actually reducing the water activity, right? But shouldn't it be and maybe it's not, and I've been told it's not, so it must not be.
+
+[20:39] But I tried once to take uh samples of known water activity, seal them in vacuum bags, and then uh throw throw them into a vacuum chamber and see whether if you put an uh uh an unknown sample in, whether the like okay, so the the one that's driest puffs last. Everyone knows, anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about. When you put a sealed vacuum bag into a vacuum chamber, at a certain point, the um the interior vacuum level of the bag uh of the chamber is such that the moisture in your bag will um start evaporating off the surface of your food and the bag will inflate like a pillow, right? And that I believe is related directly to the water activity of the product. So it would seem that as long as all the temperatures were the same, that you'd be able to take, let's say, a series of known water activities in bags, throw them into a vacuum chamber as like an indicator, and then throw in your sample bag, and then see, you know, oh my sample puffs in between these two, so it must be at that.
+
+[21:44] Isn't don't you think that should be possible, Johnny? I mean, that makes sense to me. My only thought is you had heart case hardening at any level, then that could potentially like make your perception off on what's puffing and not. Right. You'd have to slice whatever like the sample that's in your vac bag, you'd have to like slice it up.
+
+[22:05] But I don't know why that wouldn't work. I think someone told me once they didn't think it would work, but I don't know why that wouldn't work. Um here can uh talk about but do you have something to test that stuff or do you just go based on weights? Yeah, so we bought a we bought a water activity meter. Um and so every and if you're if you're doing any commercial production, you have to do it.
+
+[22:25] So and uh the way those work, right? It's you they have a little chamber, you seal it in the chamber, you let it equilibrate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? How long does it take to test? Five minutes.
+
+[22:33] Oh, so it's not so bad. But how much is that piece of equipment cost? The other thing, since he's not making sausage, is to think about is that he does if he he would want to use a pH meter, and it might even be worthwhile to get the pH on the on the product because you do still have a shelf stability factor that matters with um pH plus water activity. How much of a drop are you gonna get on a whole muscle cut? Uh you probably I mean, meat's naturally around five thick, so you're probably dropping down to five, three.
+
+[23:02] Right. So it's a lot of which is significant. Right. Because everyone remember every single whole number in pH is tenfold is a tenfold increase in uh in uh free hydrogen. Um so the second part of his question was on the the book series.
+
+[23:23] Right. Let me just read what he said so people know. What literature uh is worth reading uh what w literature worth reading is there that I might not find on Amazon. I've read charcuterie, uh home production of quality meats and sausages and I'm working my way through the art of making fermented sausages. The more technical the better uh though the Mariansky books may have already already have optimized bringing technical instruction to the home producer.
+
+[23:45] What do you think? Uh yeah so my favorite um charcuterie book that I read kind of starting off was the Cooking by Hand by Paul Botroli which has like some really great essays I think on sausage making and meat processing. All around great book though in general yeah on mentality you know I mean on mentality of cooking and caring about things. Great book. Do people still read that book Johnny I mean I still use it it's uh I go back to it because he just has a lot of really good information.
+
+[24:16] So his section on on sausage and stuff I think is uh some of the best fundamentals of explaining how to make a product and how kind of the environment affects the drying right the the only but I I mean I haven't read it in a long long time. You have looked at it recently, but the it's it's it's getting on to be about 15 years old, right? That book came out before the original uh Simon's ruhlman charcuterie book did uh at a time when the only available reference that normal people could get at a bookstore, and this is prior to you know Amazon, frankly, I think, or around the time that came out, was Rytek Kutas's uh the sausage maker, if you anyone remembers that old home. Um so it was kind of one of the lone voices in the wilderness in English on how to make uh you know, that wasn't a very expensive um professional book that you could get. So, and you do this it still holds up all this time later?
+
+[25:14] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's I think I mean it's better than the Roman book. So wow, right. You know, look, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go there because you know, my old editor is you know, is the editor of that book. And uh so yeah, you I never say anything ever against a Maria Guarnicelli production ever, because you know, lightning, the the sky will open and a lightning bolt will go through my head and strike me dead.
+
+[25:38] Uh and then I mean I think the Roman book was an important book because it was the first one out there, I just think. Right. The first one out there that well, again, there was the sausage maker, but the thing is like so much of that data is like in the sausage maker, like I just don't trust. You remember that book? You ever see even see that book?
+
+[25:54] Picture of him on the front. There was like a copy floating around for a while, and it was there's a lot of wrong things in it. First of all, I like I love like the attitude of that guy. The guy was from upstate New York, and the company still exists. That that you know, he he's passed away.
+
+[26:06] I think maybe one of his sons runs the company now. The dude hard smoked everything. The guy wanted everything to taste like kielbasa. He basically, he's like, You give him any recipe, he's like, How can I make this recipe taste like Kilbasa? You know what I mean?
+
+[26:22] That's that's basically do you remember this, Johnny? I mean, if you I don't know if you remember the book at all, but yeah, that was it. I was like, Whoa, man, you're throwing some hard smoke on that, brother. You know what I mean? I was like, it was uh yeah, interesting, interesting book there.
+
+[26:34] Uh the other thing I was wanted to point towards as far as resource goes, is there's a couple of Facebook groups that are pretty useful. Um, and I can I'll tweet out links to those ones later if people want to know. Yeah, do it. Tweet, yeah, tweet uh tweet. I don't know whether Dave, what's the best way to do this?
+
+[26:50] Put it on, just have him tweet it on his so what's your Twitter handle, Johnny? Uh we're Johnny Hunter. And tag tag Heritage Radio or tag cooking issues or something like that. Yeah, I'll tag you in in Heritage Radio. So now all of a sudden now you're running out of all your characters, so I don't know, you know, I don't know what you're gonna do with that.
+
+[27:06] By the way, uh now, you know, Madison, Wisconsin is like somewhat close to Canada, right? So do you have you ever, and I know it's not like you know, you have to go over to Toronto and whatnot, but have you ever done uh a P-meal bacon? Canadian stuff have you made a good one? Yeah. I love that stuff.
+
+[27:25] Why does no one in America sell the real stuff? Why do we have that horrific see? I think like I've said this before on the show, it's one of those things where you know Americans like to poke fun at Canadians, right? And like, but they shouldn't do it by passing off that crap they sell in the US as Canadian bacon because that's that's not like poking fun at someone. A, that's a bad product, and B, it's slanderous to the actual product.
+
+[27:47] You know what I mean? Yeah, and the P meal bacon's super easy to make. Yeah. I mean, it's just like a a loin a a bonus loin and a little bit of cure. Now, are you a cornmeal on your P meal bacon or are you a P-meal on your P meal bacon guy?
+
+[28:00] I mean, I I think the P meal is kind of the traditional. Yeah. I had a sandwich of that uh the last time I was in Toronto, and I was like, oh man, I feel bad. All the insults over all the years that I've leveled at uh this product have been misplaced. Uh so finally Tom wrote, are there lesser known hole cuts that I should be considering for dry cure?
+
+[28:22] I have access to a butcher that breaks down whole animals so anything's on the table. Yeah, I mean, I think you know, you can cure quite a bit with the pig, but the one thing that I think people might have a good time with is uh spec, which is using the sirloin. Um, which is a pretty cheap cut and easy to cure and gets a lot of that ham flavor and a lot less time. Do you uh are you a fan of the the heavy juniper on that? I know I am.
+
+[28:47] Yeah, for sure. Do you believe in keeping your spec flat or do you roll that thing? Uh we keep it flat. I like it flat too. I like it flat and pressed up.
+
+[28:59] Oh, by the way, I shouldn't say this, but Johnny, have you been on Amazon uh Prime video and have you looked up the whore male video? No, I haven't. Oh, I mean, I shouldn't say about this because I think the museum might do a thing on it. Uh, you know, like some sort of a program based around it. But everyone needs to go on their Amazon Prime account.
+
+[29:19] I like how I'm pushing Amazon even though we hate them. Whatever. They hate whatever. I've like I said, like they're terrible to sell to, but they're awesome to buy from. I'm conflicted.
+
+[29:28] I'm of two minds. There is a video, Johnny, you must watch it as soon as you hang up. Uh it's a 30-minute video from the I think mid-60s, where it's the very last point in time when it was cool to be industrial meat production. And so there's two kids watching trains go by. Two extremely white children watching trains go by.
+
+[29:53] I mean like, look at all those whore mail cars. You know what I mean? And they're like, and then they're like, Maybe, uh, maybe dad will take us to the Hormel plant. So they write a letter to Hormel, a woman, because all the secretaries, of course, are women, opens the letter and arranges for the family. Of course, the even though the mom is involved, the dad takes them to the Hormel plant, of course.
+
+[30:13] Of course. It it is, it is, you don't actually see them sticking the pigs in the cows, but from the minute they're bled out, you see like the automated knife that cuts the pigs in half. You see like the bacon press. You see like this person who uh all they do all day is is uh is bone hams. There's a guy with a uh a face trimmer, so like uh it trims off of the, or actually, I guess off the back side, you know, trims off the uh outside skin of the ham on the top side, and he's got an automatic machine, so he's literally rolling the hams through, like ripping the skins off.
+
+[30:49] It shows you uh the skin being turned into gelatin, it so shows you the skin being sent off to make footballs out of, it shows stripping the skins off of cows, it shows defleshing the cowhide, it shows making spam, it shows testing spam for uh fat content with like a like an electrical analyzer. The children are like, look at the whore male plant! It shows making dinty more beef stew, it shows cooking things in cans, it shows an entire the entire industrial operation of turning pigs and cows into anything that pigs and cows can possibly be made of in a zero waste phenomenon. There's a guy who's boning out the hams for their bone pressed hams, and the guy is like the guy is like freaking like the Zen monk. Like he just, his hands like move like he's swimming through water, but instead he's just taking the bones out of hams.
+
+[31:39] And it's miraculous until you realize that all this man did 24-7 during his work time was bone hams. It's like Simpson, it's like Bart Simpson in that episode where they're trapped in Japan. He's like, knife goes in, fish, you know, guts come out. Knife goes in, guts come out. It is, it is with you must watch it as a piece of Americana, as a piece of if you're pro or anti-industrial agriculture, you must see it for that.
+
+[32:04] You must see it for a slice of like mid-century American mentality. The gender relation stuff in it is intense because there are these, there's a 60-something-year-old woman working the line, packing, get this, Hormel wieners into packages, right? And this entire line of women who are like making sure that these packages line up, they're all referred to, and Nastasia does this, uniformly referred to as girls. I'm just saying, girls put the wieners into the package. The 60-year-old woman there.
+
+[32:32] And then later on, there is a person who is uh a woman that they feel has actual skill, who has a skilled job. The only such woman in the entire uh thing. Actually, there's one woman scientist. She's a woman. She's a woman.
+
+[32:48] What is the skill doing? I forget what her I forget what her skill is. What does it matter? What does it matter? Like she has a what does it matter?
+
+[32:54] But and then at the end, it's like, look at Hormel's technology. And then they have like these 1960s computers with the giant reel-to-reel tapes, and they're like, we can print our entire payroll in like an hour. So you must watch this if you're interested. Oh, and uh the reason I brought this up is they show they don't have a ham press that they show in it, but they do show the bacon press. So they show like the bacon sides going in.
+
+[33:20] They show the needlers, they sew like the continuous needling of the bacon sides as they go through, and then they show it being pressed into its bacon shape. Oh, Johnny, if you really want to just be like drool, they show the rotary slicing knife for slicing the bacon into sliced bacon, and it's just like bacon slices coming out. It is intense. They show the spam cookers. I mean, it's about the coolest half hour of what the hell that you can watch for free on Amazon Prime video.
+
+[33:49] Have I sold this to you yet, Johnny? No, I'm so excited. Yeah. I think Dave, we need to take a break so you can collect yourself. All right.
+
+[33:56] Alright, Johnny, thanks so much for calling in. Hope to see you soon. Uh we'll be back in a couple minutes with more cooking issues. My name is Brandon Boy, co-owner of Roberta's. A super duper awesome place.
+
+[34:24] Robertus is a very, very, very, very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. We're also super awesome. Thank you, Heritage. Alright. Wow.
+
+[34:35] Alright. So that music that they're playing there is actually what they play in the pizza cooking place. Like literally, like that mixture of drag racing and like space guns and like metal, metal heavy. Not like, not like metal, like not metal in the sense of like uh not like glam metal. Not like long hair.
+
+[34:58] I mean, they have long hair, but not like glamorous metal, more like lots of double bass drum pedal, like lots of, you know, like just like anger, shouting. Yeah, you know, yeah, uh, mosh pits aren't always like that. But anyway, uh, wait, you're on the air. Uh yeah, Dave. Um I had a sausage question for Johnny, but if we've lost him, I'll ask my other question.
+
+[35:24] Uh yeah, I don't know. I think he's not on anymore, so yeah. Yeah, sorry. But but he might still be listening, so if you ask it, he might tweet a response to you. Uh I'm trying to sort out how to make the the Chinese style lap song um sausage.
+
+[35:40] Is there any way to do those without a long slow dry? Or is that just is that just built in? Ooh, I don't know. Johnny, if you're still listening, tweet that up, tweet that on out on the uh on the on the cooking issues and uh call back. We got a line open.
+
+[35:53] What? Or a call back, yeah. So what's your uh what's your non-Johnny Hunter related question? Um I'm trying to do I'm trying to get a fried noodle to puff. Okay.
+
+[36:05] Um has it has it already been fried? Are you talking about like ramen? So I'm so I'm making I'm making a fresh egg noodle and and then and then deep frying it. And they come out really crisp and crunchy and otherwise good, but they're just a little too dense, and I would like them to just expand a little bit. All right, here's what you gotta do.
+
+[36:29] The the the trick is uh anytime you're puffing, what you need is you need to turn the um well, starch in the case of pasta, uh gelatin in the case of uh gelatin collagen in the case of uh of uh pork skin or or chicken skin or fish skin. Uh what you gotta do is you gotta um fully gelatinize that stuff, and then you want to dry it uniformly, uniformly, uh, to a I forget what the percentages are, but a relatively low moisture. I'm making this number up. I don't know, 10%. The way you do it is you just like uh when it looks glassy again, then as soon as it gets glassy, it's usually good.
+
+[37:12] If you go further than that, it won't puff anymore. So the trick is you wanna cook your pasta, cook it in water. The reason not to fry it at this point is because you're trying to keep uh the structure of the pasta relatively uh intact. If you fry it now, the water will leave, and the the places where the water is will no longer be places that will expand when you puff puff it later. Get me?
+
+[37:35] So then what you do is you cook it. The longer you cook it the better, although it starts to fall apart. But the longer you cook it the better. I'll cook it with uh some salt in the water so that it has some flavor, then spread it out and let it let it dry. Even just like uh letting it dry almost naturally is good enough if you turn it, turn it once or twice.
+
+[37:54] Uh but like uh low oven with the door open, best is like a low temperature and excalibur dehydrator. And if you want to, you can push the dehydration a little quicker, like you can keep it up at like 130 for an hour or two to flash off some of the water, and then drop it down to like 110, 115, and just let it ride until it gets, like I say, just gets glassy. This also works with rice, uh it works with uh uh wheat, barley, anything, anything like this. Then uh once it's at that state, you just throw it in the deep fryer or microwave it or use a uh heat gun for paint and they'll puff. But the trick is uh cook, preferably overcook, par dry, and then fry.
+
+[38:33] Okay. And you can tweak it, right? I had no clue that was the way to go, so I'm glad I called you. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, and you can tweak it, right?
+
+[38:41] So um depending on how much water you leave in the product, or depending on uh uh how much structure is left in it uh by how much you cook, you can make it harder or puffier. You can get it anywhere from barely expanded to like you know, like almost like like pork rinds from a package, even with pasta. Uh so and stasia knows she had to deal with this like week after week at uh at the French culinary. And if you uh old school, if you go on the old cooking issues blog, which might still be available somewhere on the internet, maybe on the archive or something, there's a um there's a a whole post on Puff Snacks, which kind of goes over the parameters back when I had actually studied them. So I'd take a look at that.
+
+[39:20] Thank you very much. Alrighty, let's know how it works out. Yep. All right. Well, we gotta start wrapping up, Dave.
+
+[39:26] It's that time. I was like, all right, there's what I got like two minutes. I got two minutes, right? Yeah, you got two minutes. All right.
+
+[39:31] Hello to the cooking issues gang. My friend has just informed me that he has discovered a jar of what was supposed to be strawberry-infused rum. Apparently, he submerged strawberries and rum in a mason jar, then forgot them for in quotes two or three years. He recently found it again and wants to know whether it's safe to drink. It smells like homemade jam, and there's no mold on it, but the strawberries turn into a gross brown mass in the bottom of the jar.
+
+[39:51] Uh, Anastasia loves nothing more than a gross brown mass. Um, he's running the liquid through a coffee filter, and so far it seems to be turning out a pretty dark pink color, but the solid stuff looks gross. I'm sending along pictures, which I didn't see. Uh, I'm doubtful that it's safe, but what do you think, Jane from uh Toronto? Uh, there's a underneath that is there's a related question uh from fermenting strawberries on Blake.
+
+[40:12] Answer uh Jane is that stuff's 100% safe. Look at it this way. Assuming you're using 40% alcohol rum, let's say you used equal weight strawberry to rum, which probably did not happen in this case. You're still over 20%, you're at 20% or slightly over 20% alcohol. And so, as we like to say in French, you're good.
+
+[40:30] You know what I mean? You're like, it's not, nothing's gonna grow in that that's gonna kill you. So then the question is, does it taste good or not? And if it tastes good, you're good to go. Uh also, I mean, what will grow?
+
+[40:41] Nothing's gonna grow. As long as like probably it's over 20% alcohol, but if it's 20 or above, you're you're in you're in real good shape there. And as long as it tastes good. Oh, now the the paste may be gross. Uh a lot of times fruit will absorb uh the more discuss, well though, over time like this, it probably is all equilibrated, but a lot of time the solids can taste really nasty uh because it absorbed stuff that you don't like from the rum, etc.
+
+[41:05] etc. etc. So I would discard the solids and then drink the liquor. Although uh my my stepfather, whose father died, you know, recently, I talked about he was a butcher on the show. Finally, a couple of months ago, they found those like 70 or 80, I don't even, they may be even older now, year-old cherries.
+
+[41:22] There's three left. So maybe we'll wait to eat them until I can cure my allergy. Or maybe I'll just sit there with an epi pen and like my brother Gerard and I. We did I okay, so I didn't. I was supposed to write, I was supposed to get a magazine, people to get an article together so I could have three generations of Atonesios uh having a Manhattan with this cherry that the fourth or fifth generation put down in the 20s, right?
+
+[41:48] And yes, I never got it to happen, and now he's dead, and so now I have to wait another 20, you know, something years for Gerard to be old enough to be in that. I'm not gonna wait that long to write this article. You know? And who the hell knows whether my brother's gonna have a kid in time? So, how am I gonna get three generations of Adenasio?
+
+[42:06] I'm not gonna be able to get three generations of Aanisio together. This took a dark turn. No, well, so uh Blake wrote in about uh fermenting strawberries. Maybe we'll talk more about it next week on Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[42:36] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[43:04] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. For more information, visit Corin.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:28] Find us at heritageradionetwork.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Otish Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:56] How are you doing, Sas? Good. Yeah? Yeah. Got Dave in the booth.
+
+[0:58] What's up, Dave? What up? Uh quick shout out to Angela Garbitz of Goldenrod Pastries in Lincoln, Nebraska, who was on the network last week and brought me some great cookies and is a big fan of cooking issues. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. She doesn't come to say hello.
+
+[1:11] Well, that was last week. She's back in Lincoln, Nebraska, I assume. Yeah, but I mean, like uh, you know, Angela was uh one of the uh interns, one of the tech interns at the French Culinary Institute back in the day. Oh, yeah. Like the hard, you know, the hardcore good crew.
+
+[1:26] You know what I mean? Like that was a good crew we had back then. Oh, gee. So if you're anywhere, so I don't think Martha Stewart has stopped by her bakery for uh for a pastry, but I know for a fact Martha Stewart once landed her private jet to pick up a sandwich. So if any of you have a private jet and you are flying over the great state of Nebraska.
+
+[1:49] Remember, the entire state is a runway. So all you gotta do is choose like a convenient spot somewhere near Angela's place, land, and get some pastries, right? Wouldn't you see think it's a good idea, Dave? Sounds good to me. Yeah.
+
+[2:03] Good idea. Oh, by the way, uh, calling your questions to 7184972128. Speaking of pastries. 784972128. What?
+
+[2:11] Your cake. Oh, we'll talk about that later. So uh Dave, the uh like the are the mics like super loud today? Because my ears feel like I'm blasting my head. Well, you sound really sick, so I turned it up a little bit.
+
+[2:21] Okay, so I was at a Dead Rabbit yesterday, and it was so loud because the Dead Rabbit was having their uh their ant like you know their yearly like you know, new menu anniversary party thing, and they're releasing a whiskey, the Dead Rabbit. Dead Rabbit's a very famous bar here in New York, for those of you that don't know famous bars. And I was there with some of our you know, upcoming bar team. I was there with Don and with Jack. And by the way, uh Nick Bennett and Jack Shram, two former bartenders from Booker and Axe.
+
+[2:49] Uh Nick Bennett is, of course, has his own program, Porch Light, and uh Jack's doing a guest shift there. So if you want to see two uh former BDX bartenders, uh head bartenders, uh behind the stick at the same time, go there tonight between uh seven and like nine, or until Jack decides to go. So anyway, so I met Dead Rabbit, and it's so loud I start screaming, and I was like, I know tomorrow morning it's gonna sound like I took up like a 12-pack a day habit. And it does. Yeah.
+
+[3:17] Well, the good thing about it is is I mean, the good thing about that is is that there's certain songs that would be really good for your singing career, yeah. Right. I mean, like there's certain songs that like even people like take uh this morning I was singing uh you know the song uh across 110th Street? By who? Bobby Wilmack?
+
+[3:36] Close 110th Street. Yeah. Anyway, so like, anyway. So the thing is is like, I'm like, oh man, I got the I I can do that now. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:44] Why? Because I was like, oh shit. Oh yeah. Oh my god. You gotta get it to the core.
+
+[3:52] You gotta let him say that. We can't afford that. That's a myth, actually. Dude. Really?
+
+[3:59] Yeah. Bobby Womack is not listening. Do you think his lawyers are listening? He is definitely. Somebody's always listening.
+
+[4:06] It's like the big brother of. You know what? It's like uh God. Why do you like that song? It's a great song.
+
+[4:13] It's a great song. Well Mac and Woman, I can't beat him. And I'll tell you something else. Uh it was featured in a movie. Uh I think that wasn't it.
+
+[4:21] Across 110th Street. It was like the theme song. And then that brought into my mind because on the way to the Dead Rabbit, I was listening to one of the all-time great movie soundtracks, Superfly. You know, Curtis Mayfield. And so like it was perfect, like on the way back with the Raspberry Voice, and in the morning I was like, I could just continue my kind of like 70s black exploitation film track thing.
+
+[4:43] And it was like, it was good. It felt good. It's a good reason to have your. What is that 110th Street? Or what is it?
+
+[4:49] It is a street. I know, but why is it so? Well, you know, there's a couple of, you know, back in the 70s. Is that where the Central Park is? It is where uh Central Park ends.
+
+[4:59] Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, that neighborhood is mean nothing like it was back in the in the day. Anyway, whatever. That's not that's neither here nor there. But remember a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about how it's so sad that soundtracks now are, you know, that no one does these awesome either theme songs or soundtracks.
+
+[5:15] And then Kendrick Lamar and Crew puts out the Black Panther album. Can I cannot wait for that movie? You Dave? You you decide to see that? Yeah, sure.
+
+[5:23] Uh I don't really dig superhero movies that much, but that one looks cool. You know what, man? What? Do you live in Brooklyn? Is this a Brooklyn thing?
+
+[5:29] Like Killjoy, like Brooklyn Killjoy. No, I don't like Superhero. What are you accusing me of like being an aloof hipster or something? I mean, if the shoes are. I don't know if kids, I don't I don't care about Marvel.
+
+[5:41] Oh, doesn't like kids either. I said I don't have kids. Alright. I don't like them either. Do you you ever see Nacho Libre?
+
+[5:52] Uh no, actually. Oh my god. How do I work? People, how do I work like this? How do I work with this?
+
+[5:58] There's a character that we named a drink after at Booker and Dax called Escaleto, who's like this like super skinny guy. And uh one of his lines is he hates all of the orphans in the whole world. All of them. All of them. Anyway.
+
+[6:11] Yeah, that's fair. Wow. Damn. No, I got nothing against orphans. They're probably better behaved.
+
+[6:17] Ooh. Ooh. Wow. I see where you're going with that. Man, you guys are you guys speaking of uh babies.
+
+[6:23] So I uh Nastasia, like uh you enjoyed it. I put the tw the tweet up yesterday about the king cake with all the babies. And man, like a lot of millennials can take a joke. Yeah. But then like so many people get all bent out with the baby.
+
+[6:36] What was the worst thing? I don't know. First of all, okay, so I what I did was I baked a king cake, too completely traditional, by the way, completely traditional king cake, because today is Fat Tuesday, right? So, you know, I did the whole thing with the all three colors of sugar, that that garish looking like, you know, purple, green, and uh and yellow, you know, sugar on top of the of the glaze, all this other stuff. It's basically look, the king cake, if you've never had it before, it's basically like, you know, a mildly enriched dough, almost uh a little bit hotter than a cinnamon bun.
+
+[7:10] Anyway, but like so, like you do it, and then you roll up like pecans and raisins and brown sugar and crap, much like a cinnamon, and you form it into a ring, and then after you bake it, you shove a plastic baby Jesus into the bottom of the cake, and then you slice the cake up. Because Christianity. Because Christianity. Uh, and then you you slice the cake up. Well, you know what the thing is is that like, you know, everyone thinks of this is uh as a um, you know, like a New Orleans thing, but you know, I remember in you know in Spain uh getting uh you know cakes with those little tokens.
+
+[7:40] Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter. So like you you you bake the cake, and then whoever gets the baby, they have to they have to get the cake next year. You see what I mean? So it's not actually a positive thing. But the funny thing was is that almost no one who was all bent out of shape about me making fun of everyone being a winner?
+
+[7:57] They're like f most people confuse like our generation with with uh baby boomers. I need to tell millennials that there is a whole group of people, us forgotten. What's what am I what am I, Nastasi? What's my generation? What are you ex?
+
+[8:10] X? Yeah. Yeah, we're not the baby boomers. Like we wish we couldn't destroy the environment. We wish we could have thrown you guys into debt, but you know, just we never had the power to do it.
+
+[8:19] You know what I mean? We're just we're losers that way. But like uh they didn't get the joke that you're just slackers, you didn't do anything about it. Uh yeah, fair. Fair.
+
+[8:28] Uh, you know, self-aware slackers, I think is what you know. Yeah, millennials are paying for baby boomers, awful decisions. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, but we but uh again, sorry, but you know, not my call. But they uh, you know, I wish.
+
+[8:41] Anyway, but the thing is is that like very few people got the full side of the joke, which is yeah, they all get the baby, so they all have to provide a king cake next year, so it's like double hosed. Anyway, whatever. But they're not gonna do it. No, of course not. No, no, please.
+
+[8:54] First of all, who the hell gets a king cake and actually uh eats it? Oh, that's delicious. I you don't like that? I don't know, it just seems like one of those things where it's all about the the ceremony and the spectacle rather than actually eating it. That's incorrect.
+
+[9:09] It is delicious. But but but you're thinking about it wrong. It shouldn't be called like a king cake. It should be called like a king coffee pastry. Like what you really want to do is have a slice of that, you know, when it's relatively fresh after it's gone stale, you know, garbage.
+
+[9:26] But like it was relatively fresh, uh with a with a cup of coffee. I mean, you like uh you like a coffee pastry, do you not, Dave? Yeah, of course. Yeah. All right.
+
+[9:36] Uh I'm sure Angela makes some coffee pastries, right, Angela? Uh do you have the address of the studio, Angela? Can we provide that for you, Angela? Coffeepastries.com. Um, all right.
+
+[9:47] So uh let me see. Uh let me call up the questions in the meantime. Uh because, okay, so today, Nastasia, I'm on the freaking train. Yeah. And they just decide to skip my stuff.
+
+[9:58] No, that's it's not a good look. It's not a good look on a subway station. But you would have been late anyway, so let's not let's not fool ourselves. You know, that is true. You know, it's like I get no love anywhere, no love.
+
+[10:12] Anyway, uh, okay, here's the questions. This is from uh Brandon Johnson in Charlotte. Um has a highball question. Do you like high balls, Nastasia? No.
+
+[10:21] What? I don't really like cocktails. What? You don't like cocktails. Doesn't like cocktails, doesn't like biscuits.
+
+[10:28] Let's just get it all. Doesn't like biscuits, doesn't like, you know, lemongrass, doesn't like fungus, doesn't like Wait, you don't like mushrooms? She likes mushrooms, she doesn't like like fungus growing on things. She hates like uh fungally induced uh leaf abnormalities. Like foot infections.
+
+[10:45] Ugh. Well you have to take it to foot infections. Um not a fan. Nobody likes a foot infection. Uh although that's why I don't shower at the gym.
+
+[10:56] I go home and do it. Although, interesting, I saw that. I just don't go to the gym. Boom! So the uh the the interesting thing about infections though is I we've mentioned this on the show before, but it bears repeating one more time that the so salt-risen bread, and we've talked about it before on the show millions of times.
+
+[11:14] Salt-risen bread is an interesting bread because uh salt is actually not the rising agent. The rising agent is the path, you know, the pathogen, the bacterial pathogen Clostridian, uh Clostridium perfringens, right? I think it's porfringens. And uh, so the classic study was printed right after World War One where they took uh the bacteria directly off of a gangrene sufferer who had you know received gangrene from a wound that they had in the trenches of World War One and dude baked bread with it. Oh my god.
+
+[11:47] And ate it. How about that? That's some hardcore business. Well, I guess I don't have to eat the rest of the day. Hey man, that person took it for you.
+
+[11:57] You know, I I like salt and bread. I think it's quite good. Real quick, somebody in the chat room sent a tweet that somebody directed at you in response to your millennial cake. Here it reads, Dear Dave, we're sorry you're old. Well, not really.
+
+[12:10] Instead of being bitter, exercise or something. Oh regards millennials. Signed on behalf of the entire generation, apparently. I mean, like, first of all, first of all, yeah. First of all, not at all bitter about it.
+
+[12:31] Like, I'm super psyched to be part of my generation. You know what I mean? I'm not super psyched with all the life choices I've made. Some of them really good. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:38] But like other ones not so good. But yeah, no. I mean, I hope everyone, when they, you know, I hope everyone's happy with every age they are in life. You know what I mean? Like, I had some really bad ages, like, you know, junior high, like really kind of blue chunks.
+
+[12:51] But I've been super stoked with every age. So, you know, there's nothing I'd rather not be right now. Nothing I'd rather not be. There's nothing I'd rather be less right now than like 22 again. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:03] Well, it's uh it always strikes me as odd when people say, like, oh, college is the best time of your life. I mean, if that's true, then shouldn't you just kill yourself after college? If it's not gonna get any better, what's the point in continuing? Right, right. But you know what the other thing is?
+
+[13:15] So, like, so uh okay, it's not a food issue, so we shouldn't get into it, but like, you know, uh after life issues. Uh after the election, this is the one where I was completely dead wrong, right? So, like after the election, I was like, you know, the millennial, I was trying I was blaming the millennials wrongly, as it turns out, right? So I was like, the millennials didn't come out and vote, and that's kind of like, you know, and now ever they're all pissed about it. But when I actually look at the statistics, the the percentage of people from each age group, when I was that age, I also didn't vote, me as a group.
+
+[13:43] You know what I mean? So it's like everyone wants to blame the generation that came before, the generation that came after. It's just, you know, everyone's sure you should exercise, dude. Look, you know, and it is true the baby boomers wreck the economy and the environment, but yeah. Gotta read this book, Dave, called The Unnatural History of the Sea.
+
+[14:02] I don't know whether the scholarship is still good, but the the author's point was well taken, which is everyone thinks that what's happening, which is you know, it can be true, right? I mean, like, we could destroy the earth, but everything that's happening, like hasn't ever happened before is unprecedented, and then goes on and and like highlights all of the like basically as soon as humans have the ability to do something terrible, they do it. So there's no point in blaming any specific like group of people like baby boomers, right? Like as soon as we had the shipping capability and the and the fishing capability, we wiped out as much of the ocean as we possibly could. And it's generation by generation.
+
+[14:37] As soon as you have the capability to do it, you do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, sounds like a baby boomer cop out, but again, wrong generation, brother. My parents were the baby boomers. No, I don't mean from you.
+
+[14:50] I'm just saying, like that guy, whoever that is making the argument. I don't know how old he is. I don't know. I don't know. I would I would wager that he's a boomer.
+
+[14:58] Wow, all right. You know, maybe we'll find it. This is a weird episode. Anyway, so back to oh, but where the cocktails, by the way, uh Dead Rabbit Dead Rabbit has uh a spinzole, and so they're gonna be using the spinzall they set on the menu. And I was like, if you have a problem, you know, you gotta get in touch with me.
+
+[15:14] And they said, Oh, we will. We will. Do they need any Sears all? I know where to get them. No, indeed.
+
+[15:20] Because we don't. Oh, I thought Amazon, right? No. Man, Dave, why, man? Why?
+
+[15:25] Digging. They went off again. You know, it's a good thing. Let me check it right now. It's like fridge.
+
+[15:30] It's ridiculous. Uh speaking of, do you check the walk-in? Is there a ham in the walk-in for us to talk about? There are several fridges here, so no. I I did not get a chance to check them out.
+
+[15:40] All right. Brandon Johnson writes in about high balls. I was recently at a restaurant, ordered a Toki high ball. So this is like a Japanese whiskey highball. Uh they had recently they had a special uh tap machine/slash hookup from Sentauri that dispensed the cocktail.
+
+[15:53] Uh the results were extra fizzy with a ton of bubbles. Uh first of all, exercise does not make me feel good. Exercise makes me feel like garbage. I want you to do this class with me. Oh, please.
+
+[16:05] What kind of class anger? No, it's not, it's like kind of with exercise. I have enough anger. Okay? All right.
+
+[16:12] This is really good. This will help you get it out, yeah. Yeah. Right now it's building up inside of you like a pieces. Please, please.
+
+[16:18] I shouldn't have used this word. Please, please. Do you know what said toxin like some goop thing? Do you know? Yeah.
+
+[16:24] Like, do you if you wanted to lower the water table of my anger? Do you know how much you'd have to tap? Yeah, that's why you should try it and see if it's it. Yeah, hit the tap. Back to the highball.
+
+[16:36] The results were extra fizzy with a ton of bubbles. And you know what? You started, man. It's like, you know, whatever. Just get on the question.
+
+[16:46] You know, people like all the exercise, all these gym freaks, right? And then they're going two miles an hour up every stairway in the freaking subway. Yeah, you're generalized. Are you talking about the money? It's not all the people.
+
+[16:57] It's not all the same people. It's some of the same people. Or the people walking half a mile an hour with the freaking yoga mat in the freaking city, hitting me in the face with their freaking yoga mat. So, real quick, there was this great joke on Seth Myers around the holidays where uh he said, like, oh no, it's that time of the year where tourists come from all over the world to look at all these things like the middle of the sidewalk and the top of the stairs. It's totally true.
+
+[17:19] It's totally true. I love it when people stop at the top of the stairs and look around. Don't you love that, Dave? Yeah, it's the best. Then you should do it in front of them.
+
+[17:25] No, the world is not about the world is not a tit for tat situation. Sometimes it feels good. Just do what's right. Sometimes it feels good. Just do what's right.
+
+[17:34] Okay, so we have an extra fizzy high ball here that Brandon was dealing with. Uh, and he said, What is the highball machine doing to give all that extra fizz? Is it mix mixing whiskey and soda as it's dispensed like a fountain drink? All right, uh, I gotta be honest with you. Uh I don't know, but I doubt it, and here's why.
+
+[17:50] I took a look at the tap, I could saw a picture of it, and the tap looks like a dedicated tap. So what they're probably doing is carbonating the mixture and getting it super cold. The key to super carbonation, first of all, uh they probably do relatively low alcohol. So the lower the alcohol percentage, the easier it is to get ripping ripping bubbles. Now, there are people on the internet uh who are reviewing this uh phenomenon of the uh highball on tap who are they're clearly lying, clearly lying because they said something absurd like it has four times or five times the carbonation of soda and one and a half times the carbonation of uh champagne.
+
+[18:29] But if you do the math, what that's saying is that uh, you know, so that champagne has over two and a half or three times the carbonation of soda, which is not the case, right? Like in terms of actual grams of CO2 per liter of beverage. So the math doesn't even add up on its own page, right? So don't believe the hype that they write on the internet. But what the truth is is that the higher the alcohol, the more CO2 you need to get into it for a certain level of bubbles.
+
+[18:57] Also, the more it's gonna foam up because the more alcohol is in it, the lower the uh the uh the higher the viscosity and the lower the surface tension. So what happens is you have this phenomenon of foam. So in order to get a very high kind of uh bubble amount, you need to get the temperature as low as possible. So what they're probably doing is mixing uh carbonating under under high, high pressure, and then uh cooling it to almost uh almost a point where you're gonna get crystals. As soon as you get ice crystals in your drink, uh they form nucleation sites and you get massive amounts of bubbling, right?
+
+[19:29] So that's the first step that they're probably doing. They're probably chilling it to a very accurate temperature, they're probably doing a relatively low percentage of alcohol. If I had to guess if you wanted really ripping carbonation, I would guess somewhere between 11 and 12, no more than 13% alcohol on it. Um maybe they do less. I don't know.
+
+[19:49] I haven't tasted their their mix. Then the trick is dispensing it. So where most people go wrong with tap carbonated cocktails is they use a relatively crappy uh tap. Uh, for instance, like a beer tap is meant to allow a certain amount of uh foam, and beer taps are relatively bad at compensating between the very high pressure that you're carbonating at, right, which is much higher than beer, much higher than beer, and the relatively low pressure of atmosphere. Also, if the lines are are are still for a long time and there's any leak or anything at all, I mean it happens no matter what, you get little bubbles in the line.
+
+[20:26] And as soon as you open the tap, uh as the um drop in pressure propagates backwards in the line, you start getting foaming in the line. So as it comes out of the tap, it's already starting to foam, it hits the atmosphere, it foams even more. So to kind of stop that, what you want is a like a very like kind of long cold laminar flow of stuff. It's not gonna create a lot of turbulence as it comes out, a very good uh compensator valve that uh uh that lets the stuff stream out nicely so you're not throwing the the bubbles everywhere. The gun taps that mix uh right at the thing, like a soda machine does.
+
+[21:02] They put the the syrup and the um carbonated water through very fine nozzles and then mix them in a larger nozzle. It's incredibly turbulent and causes a lot of bubbles. That's why when you hit a soda fountain machine, you see that like Niagara Falls, like foamy look that comes out of that like thick nozzle. And that right there, in a carbonated water carbonated beverage, you can kind of deal with because it'll settle down really quickly, and whatever the CO2 loss that you've lost, you know, kind of you know, you just take that hit and you deal with it. But if you kind of if you take that hit with an alcoholic beverage, you typically um it's just it's it's all freaking over.
+
+[21:40] It's like you've lost so much of the bubbles that it's you know almost like what why try? Which is why most people, if they're doing carbonated cocktails on tap, unless they have a dedicated machine like this, um, you know, first of all, remember there's no particulate matter in there's no juices, there's no nothing. There's nothing in there other than the whiskey and the liquid, so it's very water, so it's very kind of uh you know, finely titrated. But most people who do it need to stick with kind of low carbonation drinks. But I'd like to try one of these things, and I'm not a huge fan of whiskey and soda, uh, but you know, I'm down to down to try.
+
+[22:10] You know what I'm saying? Yep. Yeah. Here we go to break. All right, right back with more cooking issues.
+
+[22:24] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. Corin is proud of their Japanese culture and traditions, but they want you to know that their products are not just for Japanese restaurants. Their knives and tableware bring out the best qualities of food from every culture and fit into every restaurant, from French to pan Asian to American, and that is why they're located in New York City, where people from every country in the world come to eat. Corrin's unique store in Lower Manhattan is home to perhaps the most extensive collection of Japanese chef knives in the world, including Japan, plus the rarest natural sharpening stones and exquisitely designed tableware. They also host special events such as knife sharpening demonstrations and parties with New York's most famous chefs and restaurateurs.
+
+[23:12] Corrin is dedicated to this ideal. Bringing the implicit and elegance of Japanese culture to your table, be it in your home or in the finest restaurant. For more information, visit Corin.com. And we're back. Is this the uh first time Corrin's been the uh sponsor?
+
+[23:32] Uh I think so, yeah. That's great. Yeah. Love Corinne shout out to uh Salaryson running that thing. Corinne, you know, I like I am a customer of Corinne.
+
+[23:40] Like I have purchased, I don't purchase knives anymore because I'm on a spending freeze on the on the knives. But as I've said on the show many times, I'm a giant fan of traditional Japanese knives. You ever use those things? Does Mark like those things? Uh I don't know.
+
+[23:56] Yeah, I think so. Does he have you say you ever see him use them? No. What does he like to uh cut with at home? I don't know.
+
+[24:02] He cuts with your knives. What do you have? Uh crappy. Like how crappy? Like what level of crap?
+
+[24:07] Like the ones that they give you in the starships bag. So you just picked up a swag bag and that became your cooking knives? Nastasia. Hardcore enemy of quality. Like super hardcore enemy of quality.
+
+[24:21] You know what the things I think, you know, look, whatever. Do you keep it sharp anyway? No. So what do you mean you can't even cut through a tomato? So what do you use?
+
+[24:29] You Nastasi's like, I use the back of the knife to cut through a tomato because it's sharper. You know what? Like what like why do I even bother? Why do I even bother? Why do you bother?
+
+[24:40] Why do I bother? What about you, Dave? What do you s what do you slice with at home? Uh honestly, I don't know the brand name. Hey, well, thanks to Corin for sponsoring our video show today.
+
+[24:52] If Corrin would want to send me over a set, I'd be happy to use them and talk about them. Oh, come on, man. I would be more than happy. They're not, it's not a set. Look, when you go to Corinne, it's like you have to go, so you should if you look, you should go to Corinth, right?
+
+[25:06] Just the same way that you should go to JB Prince and check JB Prince out, because they're two like kind of gems of of stores. You know, they're high priced, right? But if you go there, it's just it's cool. You know what I mean? Like they're cool to go to.
+
+[25:17] But when you go to Corrin, it's more like going to like a pet adoption center and like picking like a puppy out. You know what I mean? You gotta like pick out like what kind of knife you want. You know, first you gotta make the decision, like what's your maximum price range? You know what I mean?
+
+[25:32] Like what's the maximum you're gonna do, right? That's your first choice. Then you have to choose what style you want. There's two ways to go this. You choose style in terms of Japanese Western or uh or traditional Japanese, and then like the shape of knife, and then you just go from there.
+
+[25:49] But they have so many choices of e of each one that you just gotta mess around. But you always end up spending more. You at Corinth, you always end up spending more. And then they have you know the master knife sharpener, sharpening. Should that be their slogan?
+
+[26:01] You always end up spending more. Look, man, like the next time that uh the next time the yen takes a nosedive, right? Like, you know, the next time that when they're whenever the dollar is doing really well against the yen, that's the time to go shop at Corin because the knives are from Japan, and so you have to deal with like whatever the whatever the economy in Japan is doing at the time. Um so I remember I bought a set of uh not a set, but I bought like a like a really nice Deba and a nice Yanagi, and then the year after that there was a big swing in the dollar. This was years and years ago.
+
+[26:29] And the knives like went up 50% in one year just based on the exchange rate. Finally I win. Yeah, finally. Um hey, speaking of this, uh uh, you know, again, uh I'm not involved with this stuff, but uh I'm at this place called New Lab, which is you know where I'm doing prototyping for the next Booker Index uh piece of equipment, which honestly, Nastasi, when are we gonna announce that you think? I hope spring.
+
+[26:57] What announce that it when it should be coming, right? You're talking about Yeah, like like May. Like, hey, anticipate this coming. Anticipate? Yeah.
+
+[27:11] Okay, I'm gonna say f look, we're we're gonna try to get our next product on sale by fourth quarter of this year. But anyway, when do you want to say what it is? I'm saying May. What is it? We can't say can't tell you what it is.
+
+[27:26] This is the first time we're taking on a market where someone else could just do it. We're not as I have to figure out what kind of patent protection we have first on what's going on with the stuff. Oh, also if you want to hear Dave talk next Tuesday at Tesla. Or you could just listen to the eight billion episodes of the and have cocktails and yeah. Jack Shram is making a cocktail.
+
+[27:51] All right. Uh at Tesla on 14th Street. Do you know do you know uh Dave that Nastasia is almost the owner of a Tesla? Yeah, you were talking about this last week. Yeah.
+
+[28:02] All right. Uh so you want to take a uh phone call? Yeah, sure, caller. You're on the air. Hello?
+
+[28:09] Hi. Hey, how's it going? Uh I had a question about fermented orange drink that you've mentioned a number of times in the past. I thought on your Instagram. Sure.
+
+[28:21] I was curious if you could give us the a procedure to uh make that drink. Sure. So I would click, you know, clarify the orange juice. Yep. And then, you know, do it however you want.
+
+[28:34] I recommend you use a spinzel. Then you just Oh, don't worry, I have one. Nice, nice. And then you know, try to try to get it as clear as you can, right? So let it sit for a while before you spin it so that you get like the you know most kind of solids out of it.
+
+[28:50] Um because anything it's left over is going to be a nightmare when it uh once it once it carbonates up. And then you have to the this is where the choice comes in. Now you have to choose uh what uh you know ABV you're gonna want to have with it. So you um I think I took it up, I forget what bricks I took it to. I think I took it to like 14 bricks.
+
+[29:14] I I I have to remember you just go online and you look up um you know bricks to eight to bricks to potential ABV, and when you're doing this, you're gonna ferment it basically dry. So you can just uh I forget also the standard bricks of OJ. It's it's somewhere like 11, right? So you add uh just enough sugar to it to take it up to the bricks so you're your alcohol level at the end. I think I shot for like 8% alcohol, somewhere in that range.
+
+[29:39] Um and then uh I used uh just like you know, cheap old Red Star champagne yeast uh and pitched it and you know put an airlock in it and fermented it dry. I was doing like small, I think like a gallon batch or something. I uh yeah, I forget what size carboys I was doing it in, the little ones though. Uh and as as soon as it stops bubbling, uh you can pull it, then you can bottle it and you can krausen it with sugar, which it I've done, or you can force carbonate up to you. It generally, I think tastes best fairly soon.
+
+[30:10] It's not something you want to lay down, so it's not like apple cider where you know it's just gonna get better and better. So I would say after it finishes fermenting, you just give it like, you know, you know, like a week or you know, a couple days rest to you know mellow out and finish whatever it's gonna do, unless you're gonna krausen it and add uh uh you know, you're not gonna force carbonate, you're gonna krausen it, in which case, you know, you gotta wait for the uh CO2 to build up inside of it. But yeah, it's super easy. And uh the nice thing about it is is that uh as the sugar goes away, the the orange profile and the little bit of bitterness it's left really comes up, and so it it goes back to being something kind of more complicated. But when that when there's all that sugar in there, it's like it's relatively simple as a beverage.
+
+[30:52] Uh and you know, it's kind of useless. And then once it ferments dry and is bubbly, uh it's quite, you know, I like it. Give it a try and let me know what you think. I you know, I like uh I like it. That's awesome.
+
+[31:04] Yeah, you've mentioned a few times, and I've been uh wanting to try it. So cool. Thanks for that. All right, cool. Let us know how it works.
+
+[31:11] And uh by the way, Dave, uh I'm gonna take uh I'm gonna take the uh comment from that entire generation earlier in the show in good fun, as I hope they also took the king cake comment, right, Nastasia? I hope you don't talk about it ever again. You're the one that brought it up. I wasn't gonna say anything. Oh, you Nastasia, how can you sit and lie?
+
+[31:30] You say, sit, talk about the cake. Talk about the cake. Oh, yeah, no. All right, all right, so forget about it. Don't talk about the the chat room thing.
+
+[31:36] Uh uh. So the uh never speak of it again. So here's an interesting little bit of food news. Did you see that you know blockchains, bitcoins, which is why I was talking about New Lab. Uh, because like half the people there, they're you know, everyone's blockchain now.
+
+[31:44] It's the thing like you know, it's m money making. You know what blockchain, you know what blockchains are, right? You see that they're applying it to food? No, yeah, so that like because it's not so much of a problem here in the US, but you know, in in other countries, food counterfeiting is a huge, huge deal, right? And so you you know, they have these um uh now they're using blockchain technology to identify food so that you can go check the authenticity of your food and it can't be faked.
+
+[32:15] Cool. You're Nastasia's like, I don't care. I I don't ever have a fake food problem because I live in New York City and spend my money on only good foods. Oh, come on, your own pasta flyer. How's that going?
+
+[32:28] Good. Yeah. Oh, speaking of uh I'm supposed to go into Nastasia's place by the way. Oh, yes, when are you doing that? This is gonna be so much fun.
+
+[32:36] Nastasia Lopez sets up a restaurant. Dave, you'll enjoy this. Alright, we gotta get going then. She puts the trash can like that was not me, like five feet tall. You have to be freaking a basketball player to throw food away at her place.
+
+[32:51] It's so stupid because whoever designed this, like we have a handicap lift. Like our like that's the entire restaurant is based around this lift, yet the food the trash receptacle. And you know, and it's it's everyone knows who your partners are, right? No. Anyway, she's got someone with money behind her.
+
+[33:08] Yeah, you know what she's Dave, come in and saw, saw the trash thing down. Come in with your hand jigsaw and saw the trash thing down, crazy person. Oh, I have-not are you doing that? I have gas back at my place. I was gonna go into the whole story about gas, but I'll have to do it next.
+
+[33:24] What'd you say? Gas. Oh wow. Uh so I finally got gas back yesterday, but uh day's gonna pull me off the air. So we'll talk about actually I won't be here next week.
+
+[33:34] I'll be flying back next week. All right. So in two weeks' time, send in your questions, and I'll talk about the travails of gas and what I've learned about the lies that plumbers tell you. What I've learned about gas regulators, what I've learned about gas supplies and orify. What?
+
+[33:53] Sounds like a fun show. You know what, Nastasia? People like people who actually, you know, are interested in cooking. I think they want to know how their equipment works and how they can make it better. I was also gonna describe, by the way, how you what you should never do from a safety standpoint.
+
+[34:09] I was gonna describe my history of manipulating gas-fired cooking devices and different ways of doing it, like solenoid versus bypass. Oh, I think I'm gone that week. Uh you're such a jaguar, such a jaguff. Anyway, uh cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[34:38] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[35:04] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. For more information, visit Corin.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:28] Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking It Choose. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Two's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from this time pretty late, 12, like 20 to like 1245, one o'clock from Rapunzel's Pizzeria in Bushwick, br br Brooklyn. Got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez on the horn because she's uh, you know, she's busy doing catering again for her favorite people who are. Saturday night live.
+
+[1:05] Yeah, yeah. She's uh, you know, pasta flyers doing it. That's like my favorite. This is like my life goal. And I reached it, so I can die now.
+
+[1:14] And you know, yeah, I mean uh as as uh as Dave says, if uh you know, as Dave in the booth says, how are you doing, Dave? Good, how about you? Uh good. As Dave likes to say, if you've reached your goal, die now. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:26] That's right. It's very Roman. Yeah, it's like, you know, you've done it, do it. Goodbye. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:31] Like if like you reach the avenue. Yeah, who wants to look? You know, how much fun is it? Remember back when I was cool. Remember back when I was at the top.
+
+[1:38] Glory days. Yeah. Oh, are you saying some glory days? Yep, yep. Well, is that the first time we've ever sung on the show?
+
+[1:45] Uh I don't know. I'd have to check the archives. Uh, so the uh, although that's that's from a guy that never passes glory days. He just gets better and better, that guy. What?
+
+[1:56] I mean, no, listen, nothing against Bruce. That's the first concert I ever went to. Love Bruce. I wouldn't say he's in his prime anymore, but I don't think that he's also not like clinging to it the way like the Rolling Stones are, you know. No, look, Bruce Springsteen, like, yeah, okay, like if you had to choose one era of Bruce Springsteen, it wouldn't be right now.
+
+[2:17] But the guy is like still working doing other stuff. Yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. He's in a different phase of his career, and I I respect that. He's not just trying to do what he was doing 20, 30 years ago. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I don't know.
+
+[2:29] I gotta look. Nastasia probably hates Bruce Springsteen because he's cool. No, I would love to see, I would love to see him before he goes. Really? I would before he goes.
+
+[2:38] Like he's on his deathbed. Like you never know, like I said before. Uh my man Neil Diamond retired like right before I was gonna get a chance to finally go. I had like, you know, I had over 30 years of being conscious of his music and didn't go, so bad on me. Same with Bruce Springsteen.
+
+[2:54] But you know, the problem is Bruce Springsteen concerts is they sell out in like 13 seconds. You know what I mean? Yeah, the scalping has gotten out of hand. Yeah, scalping's gotten out of hand. Oh, so bots and all that.
+
+[3:03] So I was noticing something on the subway that bothers the heck out of me. All right, so like so uh what's the ordering application to people, the uh like the delivery app that people use that aren't from New York City? Grubhub. They use Grubhub. That's the one that they use elsewhere.
+
+[3:18] But here we use most people I think use seamless here, right? I use we use seamless. What about you guys? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:24] Yeah. So seamless, so for those of you that aren't from New York, seamless, I guess is like your version of Grubhub or whatever. Uh, they have the most irritating subway ads. They just really bug the hell out of me. It's all of these.
+
+[3:38] Oh, are they the ones that ask you to tell you you can order whatever you want with your order? Yeah, it's like it's like, yeah, like add, add like a, and it's like all of these like pseudo-witty notes that people have added to their food or like instructions. Oh, yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Draw a whale on the bag. The bag doesn't need to be the whale doesn't need to be eating bread.
+
+[3:57] He just needs to look confident. Or like, go tell my neighbor to stop stealing my Wi-Fi. Not funny. Listen, like, may it okay, okay. Yeah, Wi-Fi theft is no joke.
+
+[4:08] No, it's cute, right? I guess it's cute, but my feeling is is that everyone involved, no one involved in that advertising campaign has ever had a job delivering food. That is my that is my guess. Absolutely zero people involved in that ad have been delivery people. And I guess you know what?
+
+[4:25] To be honest, the vast majority of New Yorkers who are ordering stuff have probably never worked delivery before. Uh I have worked delivery before. And let me tell you, like, we are not your playthings to F with. Like, we are delivering you your food, and we're hustling out to deliver the next like order of food. We just want to get our freaking job done and be left in peace.
+
+[4:50] We don't want to be a pawn in your freaking game. We don't none of that. You know what I'm saying? It's like I gotta say, I gotta say, it has really like it is really effed up the way that delivery is seen now because we've been doing delivery of Hopsifier and people write stuff. Yeah, whatever uh notes like that on their delivers.
+
+[5:09] Yeah, it's because of this freaking seamless campaign. Everyone's like, that's not thing. Oh, we're so oh, we're hip, we're friends with you. No, you're not. I'm delivering you food, right?
+
+[5:18] Look, it's gotta be a little bit different now. Look, when I was doing it, it was also like the the hyper anger crapshoot of not knowing whether you were gonna get tipped. Now, I think the vast majority of people are tipped ahead of time, which is kind of bizarre. Like, you know, you know, you know what you're gonna get tipped in advance, so you know whether or not you hate the the you know the person, or remembering back to Rod Feiner who I worked with in delivery, whether or not they were gonna spit in that person's pizza, which PS people happens in the real life. If you really mess with your delivery person, they're not all like super friendly to you.
+
+[5:53] You know what I'm saying, Stas? Not that no one to Postifier is gonna do that, but why would you mess with someone who is like working hard and like trying to get like they're they're going out in the freaking rain, they've probably been T-boned by a car. Like who the hell knows? You know what I'm saying? It's just leave them alone.
+
+[6:10] Yeah, you know what I mean? I I try to explain this to my dad too. Like when we're at a restaurant and you know, he is trying to be like really clever with the server. I'm like, they don't they don't like that. You know, they're pretending to like you right now, but they don't they don't need this in their day.
+
+[6:25] You know, they've got enough going on. Yeah, it's my cousin James, who you know was work worked front of house for a long, long time, is like basically everyone comes in starting at about a C and can go down. Like you can't go up. You know what I mean? It's like you start at a C and you can go down.
+
+[6:42] That's really good. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, and it's just like uh, you know, like never under, like don't underestimate, right? The fact that, like, yeah, this person is being paid to be pleasant to you, doesn't don't abuse that. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:59] Like, don't abuse it. Whatever. So, like, what's some stupid stuff people? Stripper is not your girlfriend. That kind of mentality.
+
+[7:05] Wow. Wow. All right. Uh so Nastasia, like, what are some stupid things people have recommended? Restaurant workers just strippers, just to clarify.
+
+[7:13] Yeah, just all right, yeah. Styles, what are they? It's just like adding on things. Like as if it's free. Like, can you add some of the the three of the different sauces on there because my my boyfriend likes it?
+
+[7:28] Something like that. And you're like, crap, now I gotta do it, but they're not paying for it. You know, so they put everything in the notes so that they don't have to pay for it. Well, is there a slot to buy extra sauce? Yep.
+
+[7:41] There's a slot to buy extra sauce and they don't use it. Yep. Wait, so why do you have to do it? Or they'll say, can you put some lobster on it? What?
+
+[7:48] There's no lobster. Yeah. And it's like, no. You're like, no, I gotta go down to like Chelsea Market. I gotta buy a lobster.
+
+[8:02] But wait, but but let me ask you this. Does there some mechanism whereby you can be like, yeah, sure, and charge them extra? Not on we have like three different ones, so not on two out of three of them. Huh. Hmm.
+
+[8:18] Yeah. Can you remove the uh you guess you can't remove the notes section? No. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[8:25] So I so out of curiosity, because I've never had to deal with these people, like how much are they charging you? Like what like how much so if if I put let's say I order I'm not allowed to you know what? F that. I'm gonna open the space so that everybody knows because you know, restaurants don't like to tell because they have a deal or whatever. Okay, so I'm let's not talk specifics.
+
+[8:42] Let's say I was ordering from another restaurant and I ordered fifty dollars worth of stuff from you. How much how much does like the seamless equivalent get? If you want to have like good placement on their site or like it pops up as one of the first ones, they take 50%. Wait, how much? 50.
+
+[9:00] 50. What the hell? What? Yep. Whoa.
+
+[9:06] What? 50%. What? Wait. Yeah, it's crazy.
+
+[9:15] That's negative profits. You're losing money everything you're buttons. So if you drop it, then how much does it cost if you're just like you know, Schlumpy McSlumpenstein on it? Between 17. 17 is the lowest.
+
+[9:33] And like 22 is usually where people fall. So you're telling me, you're telling me that it's as much as the food cost. Yep. Yeah. It's as much as the food cost.
+
+[9:44] We don't have our own delivery people, so we're using their delivery people. Oh. What if you have your own delivery people? Uh I'm not sure. I mean, it must be less, but yeah.
+
+[9:56] Yeah, it's gotta be less. But wait, so then how did how are tips handled? They go directly to their delivery people? Direct, yeah, exactly. They get the percentage and they get the tip.
+
+[10:05] Do they steal the tips from them? Or does it work under the same tipping laws that we have? Uh I'm not sure. That's crazy. Well, yeah, but if you have your own deli because here's the thing, right?
+
+[10:16] All right, let's do it. That's why you don't want to mess with that. Right, but let's say if you were big enough and it was a big part of your business, right? It doesn't cost that much to hire a delivery person because they're tipped wages. So you're paying them, you know, whatever you're paying the the tipped, you know, tipped uh workers.
+
+[10:33] So then it's just a question of like um uh yeah, I guess the the workers' comp insurance. Right. Speaking of, when I was working on a Booker and Dax prototype I uh I uh was sanding something yeah yeah and a piece of sorry so I was sanding something with a Dremel and I didn't put my safety glasses on because literally I was sanding a piece of plastic with a Dremel and the sanding the sanding slash cutting disc that I had on must have had metal from the last time I was cutting metal with it on it threw off a piece of metal right in my freaking eye. Now Dave when I was a young man my eyelids were good they could close fast and stuff wouldn't hit my eye but now you know now that you know I'm getting on here apparently my eyes have slowed down and the sucker went straight into my eye directly next to like on my cornea next to my pupil right okay so I'm thinking pretty much so I'm thinking to myself this sucks but what am I gonna do? Same thing I would always do I'm gonna blink it out right I'm gonna blink it out.
+
+[11:42] So I'm just blinking it out and like by the time like you know midnight rolls around I'm like maybe overnight my eye will swell up and the extra mucilage and pus will cause this object to come out of my eye and when I wake up I'll be fine right as as I do. Because Nastasi because I'm what I'm I'm a I'm an animal right an animal an animal so anyways so I wake up and at this point when I wake up I not only can I not open my eye but even shining a light on my closed eye causes I didn't know you went to bed first, dude. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Even shining a light on my closed eye is intensely painful because here's what's interesting.
+
+[12:24] When your eye swells up uh or like has like a like internal irritation, um, every time your iris moves to accommodate to light level, it's intensely painful. That's what like light sensitivity is. So every time I pass in and out of a zone with different lighting, I go through ah, you know what I mean? Oh my god. So, anyways, so I had to go in and it's a tiny piece, so you can be completely incapacitated by this tiny piece of metal.
+
+[12:50] So, yeah, so they had to like strap my head down and flick the thing out of my eye with a needle. And then they had to-like what, like when you get a splinter out, they were basically like tink tink tinking it out of your eyeball, right? Yeah, with a needle. Yeah. And then they get another, and the the ER attending did that, and then they wait for the uh for the eye doctor to come in, and he does the same thing to remove, get this, Dave, you'll enjoy it.
+
+[13:13] The rust ring around where the metal was. Oh you like that? And then I had to get a tetanus shot uh booster. Because I couldn't remember. No, I wish.
+
+[13:23] But you know what? Luckily, the very next day, I got stabbed with a piece of rusty metal. So like I was like, hey, I know I have my tetanus booster, so I'm good. You know what I mean? I didn't even I completely ignored the stab wound the next day with the rusty piece of metal because I'm, you know, I was set.
+
+[13:41] Yeah. One of the one of the roblings lining. Yeah, silver lining. There's a there's a, you know, uh, you know, around around every cloud is the sun waiting to blind you. Um anyways, where were we going with that though?
+
+[13:54] What why why did I even bring that up? What were you talking about? We were talking about bad things happening. Who knows? Where your safety glasses, people.
+
+[14:01] Where your safety glasses. Uh so let me see. So last week we didn't have a show because I was in uh London and visited Stonehenge and Bath. Gotta go back to Bath. Bath was a nice place.
+
+[14:12] Uh I didn't really get to eat out that much any fancy places because I was with uh uh a bunch of kids, but I did indulge my favorite English confection, which is toffee. I love English toffee. You like that stuff, Dave? Uh sure. Should be sure.
+
+[14:26] You don't what about you, Nastasia? I don't have a strong feeling. Uh not really. You don't like like Worders original? Like that's not.
+
+[14:32] No, no. Do you know like um you know caramel, right? I'm familiar with caramel. You like do you like craft brand caramels? Uh do you like the flavor of freaking caramel?
+
+[14:46] What? What? Um I only like those bullseye ones. Those are gets caramel creams, which are delicious. That's my favorite all-time candy.
+
+[14:54] So, but that that same kind of flavor, but like 30 times harder is what like traditional English toffee is. And like I like it because I like things that fight me on a constant basis when I'm eating them. You know what I mean? Oh, Dave, tell them that you met my anger teacher. Oh, I did.
+
+[15:11] Nastasia, uh, the day I flew back from London was like, you're doing a talk. So I gave a talk to the uh because Nastasia, for as much as she's like, I can't afford a microwave. I don't have space for a toilet, right? Like for all of that talk, she's a graduate. You know, Nastasia's always claiming poverty on everything, right?
+
+[15:30] Or like lack of space. But she is uh like a an organizer of the Stanford entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs. I don't get paid for that. What ev?
+
+[15:40] So we did a uh thing at at Tesla. Uh because you know Nastasia's on the list. She's buying one of these Tesla's new case. Everybody knows. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:49] But again, you know, so you know, quit with the quit with the oh, poor me. I also Nastasia gets free cable. Anyway, I don't even want to talk about it. Yeah, I know. Are you stealing cable?
+
+[15:58] No, free. It's like legit. Like the whole building was like, hey, everybody here gets cable. Wow. Anyways.
+
+[16:06] So uh yeah, we had I had to talk about uh what it was like to start a business, and I met Nastasia's anger teacher, and she was like, Yeah, you're angry enough, you should come. Just to clarify, is it teaching you how to be angry or how to manage your anger? Or how to use anger as a way of manage it, how to exercise it. Right, okay. Not exercise in the Linda Blair sense, right?
+
+[16:29] Exercise in theger there. I mean, that's demonic possession. I mean, is there a difference? It's just a slight matter of degree. You think?
+
+[16:39] But the crappy thing about this whole thing was that Dave completely like uh massacred our business, like told everyone that we don't, you know, that it's not worth anything, that never to start an equipment business, that we're a uh trailing edge equipment business. It was we seemed really stupid up there. No, keeping it real, Stas. Like, I'm proud of what we do. We do a good job, but like, but imagine if you did like uh it's like when it's like uh when my wife went into architecture, everyone tries to dissuade her from doing it because if you really want to do it, you're gonna do it anyway, but it's not a good business to get into unless you really want to do it.
+
+[17:19] You know what I'm saying? It's like yeah, it's you know, I would caution anybody about going into the uh any media industry. Yeah, unless you really want to do it. You know what I mean? Like, because the odds of uh of massive success are minimal, right?
+
+[17:34] But like so, it's like the return has to be the work itself. If the work itself is a return to you, then do it. It, you know, but you know, if you just are looking for something uh some way to make money, like you know, learn blockchains. Anyway, um learn blockchains, learn block. Everything now is blockity chain, blockade block block, blockade chain.
+
+[17:54] Uh Jordana Rothman, by the way, friend of the show, and Don Lee, friend of the show, are starting a blockchain related uh fake business together. But I can't discuss it because they would sue me. That's fake. I mean, as of now it's fake. Uh, you know, knowing Don Lee, he's already registered the name.
+
+[18:10] It's one of those things where it's all about the name. Uh it it next time he comes on, or if Jordana comes on, we'll see if they'll if they'll tell you about it. All right. So uh let's get to some uh oh, and by the way, I probably will not be here next week because I need to fly to I need to fly to Denver, Colorado. Because I'm gonna I'm gonna be filming another teaser for yet another television show that will never get picked up.
+
+[18:32] All right. Let me tell you something, people. Hey Dave, tell them about Time Machine Fridge. Oh, God. It wasn't called Time Machine Fridge.
+
+[18:39] What? It wasn't called Time Machine Fridge. Yes, it was. It was not called, it was called Time Machine Chef. And I was you have to go in the refrigerator to go back to the five.
+
+[18:49] I don't have to go into a refrigerator. I was merely a judge. I was merely a judge. This was gonna be a show. They actually I think released it.
+
+[18:57] They did the show, but it it never got bought. But it was for a like a real network. So people, if you're ever gonna do like some sort of TV thing, if they still have TV these days or in the future if they have TV, uh the the money is ginormously bigger on network versus uh cable, right? So um this was a network show, so yeah, but that was years and years ago. But that was, you know, the first time when I was on a situation where I wasn't allowed to like go get my own coffee because they needed to know where everyone was at every second.
+
+[19:28] Anyway, so that didn't get picked up. Here's the thing. 90 times out of a hundred, no one's gonna pick up the show. So no matter what work you do, the safest thing to do when you're gonna do media work, the safest thing to do as a talent, which by the way, is a uh when they call you talent, that means that they hate you, right? So like uh if someone calls you a talent, it means they hate you.
+
+[19:51] But like if that if that's your job, the um the truth is uh just assume that it won't happen. Like when you're working, like work as though you know it will work, but assume that nothing will happen because 99 out of times out of a hundred, it doesn't, right, Nastasia? That is true, yeah. Yeah, right. Unless you're already famous, in which case chances are it'll work.
+
+[20:14] You know what I mean? But like if you're not already famous, or if like your basic pitch is like here's another thing no one in media wants to hear. I'm gonna do things totally different from the way everyone else did it. They're like, no, I don't know how to write a check for that. I want you to do it exactly like this other person did, but just look slightly different, right?
+
+[20:32] Right. That's why we have all these superhero movies. Hey, saw Black Panther. I liked it. I thought it was a good movie.
+
+[20:38] Are you you uh talking crap about Black Panther? No, I haven't seen it. I heard it's really good, but I just again I don't I don't really care about superhero movies in general. Yeah, yeah. All right, you hate superheroes.
+
+[20:48] Um you know what? I like everyday heroes, Dave. Oh, gee, come on. There's no such thing as an everyday hero. This is the thing.
+
+[20:55] Everyone's gotta be a hero now. Everyone's a freak and everyone's a few. Everybody gets a medal, everybody gets a trophy. That guy, he made such a good sandwich. He's an everyday hero.
+
+[21:04] No, he's making sandwiches. Yeah, that was I was just kidding. Dave, it's almost 1245. Yeah, we're gonna take a break. We gotta take a break.
+
+[21:12] I haven't even answered questions yet. That's your fault. We'll come right back. Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. Corrin is proud of their Japanese culture and traditions, but they want you to know that their products are not just for Japanese restaurants.
+
+[21:37] Their knives and tableware bring out the best qualities of food from every culture and fit into every restaurant, from French to Pan Asian to American. And that is why they're located in New York City, where people from every country in the world come to eat. Corrin's unique store in Lower Manhattan is home to perhaps the most extensive collection of Japanese chef knives in the world, including Japan, plus the rarest natural sharpening stones and exquisitely designed tableware. They also host special events such as knife sharpening demonstrations and parties with New York's most famous chefs and restaurateurs. Corrin is dedicated to this ideal, bringing the implicit and elegance of Japanese culture to your table, be it in your home or in the finest restaurant.
+
+[22:22] For more information, visit Corin.com. So the first segment sounded like Jackie Molecules, but this segment did not sound like Jackie Molecules. You know what I'm saying? What are you talking about? Whoever was reading it.
+
+[22:36] That was Jack the whole time. Oh, really? Didn't sound like him the second time around. First time it sounded like him. Let me tell you something.
+
+[22:41] Love Corrin. Here's the thing. Uh, like, that's as Miley Carpenter, my sister-in-law, the head of the Food Network magazine, would say, not a range like like American to pan-Asian to French, like those are the three things you pick. I don't think we wrote that. Pan-Asian.
+
+[22:57] First of all, here's another thing. Sharpening stones, people. I'll say this very quickly. I've said it a million times before. Super expensive, typically Japanese kind of like water stones people work with, like, they're great.
+
+[23:10] Obviously, they're fantastic, but that is like a religion. That's like a like a religious thing. So if you want to belong to a religion that has to do with sharpening your knives, then by all means, like get the different grits, like soak the stuff, like true them out, you know, you know, get down on your knees and pray to your knife before you sharpen. But you know, for the rest of us, I think diamond stones work fine. It's just me.
+
+[23:33] Anyway, I've I've never had anyone, frankly, who's used the uh I always forget, is it DMT or whatever, whichever one I always recommend? The big, the big biggity big, big big one, be like, you know what? My knives are dull. No, it doesn't, because they they sharpen great and they take no freaking maintenance. Nastasi, if you were a knife person, would you want to spend half of your time when you're when you're doing knife maintenance?
+
+[23:55] Do you want to worry about your knife or about your stone? My knife. Yes. Anyway. But but again, they're they're they're awesome.
+
+[24:03] And like, like if you're doing the whole sushi thing and it's some sort of like, you know, yes sensei kind of a situation, then by all means, like go full water stone, you know, you know, enjoy. Uh okay, so uh Eddie from uh Manchester writes in uh I was after some tips on fermenting and vacuum bags. I'm experimenting with making a number of different flavored misos and was hoping to ferment them in vacuum bags so I can make small batches and save on space and mess. These are good reasons to use a vacuum bag. Um, you remember in uh in uh I think it's the Great Pumpkin when uh Lucy threatens Linus.
+
+[24:38] He's like, or maybe it was it, no, it was in the Christmas uh one when when uh Linus goes, Why should I? And she goes, I'll give you five good reasons and makes a fist in his face. He goes, Those are good reasons. So, like, like my kids and I say that to each other all the time. Those are good reasons.
+
+[24:52] Um, uh my plan was to make uh miso batches, vac them, and then store them inside larger bags in case they explode, which is a good thing. I always double bag anything that's fermenting. Uh by the way, as things ferment, if they're producing carbon dioxide, they will inflate and like they get real hard like pillows. Typically, the bags that you use have enough uh gas permeability such that they will vent gas, especially at those high pressures prior to exploding. So I have never I've had them leak because like of bad seals, which happens, you know, depending on your bags, your technique and your vacuum can happen up to one in ten bags can have a small leak in it.
+
+[25:31] And a lot of that has to do with whether you're not, you know, getting the bag uh exactly flat on the ceiling bar, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but uh, which by the way is uh is a Willy Wonka uh reference anyway. Uh but from the end, memo bis anyway. So the uh the um but typically as they inflate, if the bags are the you know commercial strength ones that we use, they won't rupture, they'll just get real pillowy, real hard, and then they'll slowly vent out their gas as they as they go because they're not a hundred percent uh gas impermeable. So anyway, so there's that.
+
+[26:05] Um I'll check them regularly, and if the bags pop uh uh puff up excessively, then I'm guessing I could open them to release the gas and revacue them. Eh, I don't think you should. Uh I was uh wondering if it's okay to pull a full vacuum on the miso and have it ferment successfully and safely. I heard a podcast from the Nordic food lab team who mentioned that they were trying to leave some air in the bags when they sealed things for fermenting in order to avoid botulism risks. Any thoughts and tips would be great.
+
+[26:31] Uh P.S. I'm enjoying my spinz on looking forward to trying more stuff with that too. Cheers, Eddie. Okay. So here's what I'm gonna say about that.
+
+[26:37] So uh he wrote in and say he's doing sweet miso, and he's in the five to seven percent salt range with with what he's doing, and he's uh eventually those sort of short, short-term fermented mesos. He wants to do some longer-term ones that are in the 20 to 25% salt range. Okay. So here's the thing. So miso is um is a multi-phase fermentation, but if you think about it, there's two main steps, right?
+
+[27:00] The first step, you're using uh a mold, uh, an aspargillis, um, to you know, to actually put in the enzymes that are doing the you know, the koji step where you're making the koji and doing all that. That obviously requires oxygen because molds require oxygen to survive. And that's why mold is on the top of, for instance, if you're making pickles and you have a pickle crock and water gets into it, you can get some mold, I mean uh air gets into it, you can get some uh mold on the top. So um putting something in a vacuum will inhibit mold, but the mold isn't really uh a big thing in later stages of miso fermentation. Later stages of miso fermentation uh miso fermentations are lactic acid bacteria, typically other bacteria and yeast, both of which can function in an uh anaerobic environment.
+
+[27:47] Now, um, if you have, let's say you just had soybean paste with nothing else in it, right? And you were to inoculate it with botulism, and then you were to seal it, as long as you're above about 8.5% um salt in the liquid phase or 10% salt. According to Clostridium botulinum ecology and control in foods by House Child, uh, the water phase concentration for complete inhibition of uh botulism growth and toxin production should be about 10%. But miso, we gotta remember miso is probably only about 50% solid. So anything about above about 5%, 6%, and you should be a salt by weight of total batch, you should be in a pretty safe zone in terms of uh botulism.
+
+[28:33] Add that to the fact that you have other bacteria in there that are competing with it, other yeasts that are competing with it. Um, and you probably I've never measured the pH of miso, but it's probably somewhat lower than neutral, so that's another hurdle. Uh, and you should be fine. Uh any small amount of air that's in it will probably oxygen that you leave in the bag will probably get consumed relatively quickly by the yeasts in there that can consume oxygen if they want to, they're they're facultative that way. And so I don't think it's gonna be so helpful.
+
+[29:04] A lot of times, if you're doing straight lactic acid or other things, you can leave a little bit of air in the bag such that um, you know, if there's any sort of aerobic um aerobic uh, you know, bacteria stuff that you want to happen at the beginning and then have it stop, then you can leave a little bit of air in the bag, the oxygen will get used up and then it'll go into fully anaerobic uh fermentation. But short answer is I don't think it's gonna be a problem. If you're really super duper worried about it, you could add a pinch of nitrate to it and uh uh nitrite to it, and uh that should knock it out, but I wouldn't be overly worried. Especially in your later recipes where you're gonna be moving up to uh you know higher salt contents, like really, really, really don't uh don't worry about it. Uh Scott wrote in about hams from uh New Orleans.
+
+[29:46] I'm about to buy a rarely sold country ham, burgers. I've heard a lot of descriptions on how to carve it on your show and can't wrap my head around. Is there some reason I can't just carve this uh like a Hamony Barico uh gets carved on the YouTube? I figure between uh carvings I'll just cover the carved spot in lard and wrap the ham up in wax paper. Will that work?
+
+[30:07] Yeah, you where the wax paper is touching it, you can get like probably things growing on it, um, molds and whatnot growing on the actual kind of uh cut surface. Morris burger, uh, I think it was Morris, I forget, was it was it Morris I spoke to? I haven't spoken to the burgers personally in about 14 years. Uh but uh yeah, 14 years. But yeah, they used to just cover the cut surface with lard, but they would leave it hanging, as I've said on the show before, to prevent uh vermin from getting to it and prevent it from drying out.
+
+[30:35] So covering it in lard should be good. The Hamoni Birico people cover it up uh temporarily with pieces of the of the fat that they've sliced off. So that should work just to prevent. But remember that especially lard that you buy, it goes rancid pretty quickly. So I would wipe like severely, I mean, really wipe off any lard that you put on it and make sure that it doesn't get too greasy and maybe throw away the first slice that you take off of the top uh if it gets kind of rancid uh and nasty.
+
+[31:00] Now, to your former thing is that the problem with uh, and by the way, when you're buying a burger's ham, you want to buy any any ham that you want to hand slice, right? You want it to be for an American country ham especially, you're gonna want it to be over well over nine months. A year is it's hard to slice a nine month ham, depending depending on how you make it, but if it's traditionally being hung and it's not in a forced drying room, uh you if you slice it any earlier than nine months, that the center of the meat is just too freaking soft to slice adequately. It's gonna gum up on you. It's not gonna look, it's not gonna have that mahogany look that you know that you see in um in like a you know, uh like a really good uh Hamon or you know, even in like uh you know a prosciutto, you know, deparma.
+
+[31:46] But on and around 12 months is a really good slicing range for American country hams, but because of the way that they're hung and because of the way they're cured, uh the the conformation of them, there's always gonna be a giant difference in texture between the center of the meat and the outside. So the outside meats, especially on the exposed flesh part, are always gonna be a lot harder, a lot harder. So in a 12-month hand, they're gonna be a lot harder there, and still gonna be fairly soft in the like the fat part of the kind of cushion area of the meat. And so it made that also makes it a little bit more difficult to slice it long the way that you would for a Hamone Barico. But the the main challenge here is that they're just cured in a different shape.
+
+[32:28] If you look, there are some people who cure their hams, uh, Americans who cure their hams long, you know, stretched out and long, and those ones will probably be easier to slice uh as though it was uh Hamone Barico. Uh you might have to remove some of the bone around the H bone area if they leave it in to try to you know make the slicing more effective. But the ones that are scrunched up tighter and are more cannonball-shaped, I think you're gonna have a tougher time um doing the you know the three-direction slicing like they do with uh with a hamon. But hey, give it a shot and uh and let let me know. Let me know.
+
+[33:01] I haven't had a burger's ham in a long time. Anyway, what do you think, Stas? Is that good enough answer or no? No. No?
+
+[33:07] I said yeah. Oh, no. No. Got time for one more. One more.
+
+[33:13] One more. All right. Well, all right, I'll do uh not a long one. Oh, son of a gun. Because I have I have three more.
+
+[33:21] Like a yes or no question. What? You hate me. All right, listen, Colin Hunter wrote in, I'm not gonna answer this one right now. Colin Hunter wrote in.
+
+[33:29] No, he wrote in because I don't know the answer, but I want some answers from people. I want them to email email us in. Collins in New Zealand and he's working with this product called uh Mamakoo, right? When you type Mamakoo into your browser, it thinks you're looking for Mama Say, Mama Sama Makusa from uh, you know, from uh Michael Jackson. But in fact, you're not.
+
+[33:52] You're looking for Mamaku, which is this fern that they eat in uh in New Zealand, but it's extremely mucilaginous, right? And so Colin's looking for a way to combat mucilage in general in foods. And so I'm gonna leave that out. I want people to text, you know, or write us in and like talk about their mucilage things. He says he's tried to treat it like okra, he's tried to soak it, he soaked it from 30 minutes to three days in various amounts of salt.
+
+[34:16] He soaked it in acids uh for varying lengths of time, both before and after salting. So these are classic things to deal with uh mucilage, right? Uh he's tried frying it, uh deep frying it, baking it, roasting it, sous vide, high tote, low temp, and he has and he can't get rid of enough of the mucilage to have it be what he thinks is like applicable to most people's like of mucilage, right? So he's hit all these high notes of things that you would typically say to do. Uh I would say I would like to hear some tips on people.
+
+[34:47] I was looking up mountain yams, because those are some slippery things. Those are those are the ones where you know we were peeling them in front of uh Nastasia and someone picked it up and it shot across the room and and it shattered on the floor. And everyone like was relating it to th things that we shouldn't talk about on air. It was nightmare, it was a complete nightmare. But anyway, I had a non mucil, uh non mucilage uh one of those that was kind of tempurid, and I gotta figure out how the chef unslimed them there.
+
+[35:13] So anyone that has any stuff on how to get rid of this sort of slime or if they have any experience in particular with this particular slime, I'd be interested to hear it. Just FYI people. Mucilage in plants are typically uh extracellular polysaccharides, okay? So uh, you know, similar to like Xanthan's knot. So the the thing is is that a lot of times if you keep them in the plant product until you consume them, it masks their kind of presence.
+
+[35:40] That okra works. Sometimes the mucilaginous texture develops and gets stronger as you add it to more liquids because the stuff leaches out and then can functionally slime up a lot more liquid than it itself contains, right? So just not cutting something can prevent a lot of slime. Drying things can prevent slime. If you dry the outside, for instance, and then fry it once the outside is dry.
+
+[36:01] Perhaps it won't be mucilaginous in in the middle. But this is why salting, why vinegar, because they shift uh how and soaking is because they shift and or dilute this polysaccharide that's in there that's uh slime. But anyone that has any suggestions, uh I'd uh I'd appreciate it. Uh so next week, or not next week, because I won't be around next week, we will get to uh Marlowe's questions about martinis and uh cooling them and uh dilution in martinis because we don't have time to get to it now. This will have been cooking issues.
+
+[36:42] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage Radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[37:10] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
+
+[37:49] Ever wonder what kind of podcast Julia Child would have made? Probably would have been one where she introduced you to all of our latest discoveries and favorite people. And that's exactly the tradition we're following on Inside Julia's Kitchen, a podcast of the Julia Child Foundation for Gastronomy and the Culinary Arts. Join me, Todd Shulkin, your host, and the Foundation's executive director, as I bring you inside the Foundation's world to meet the bright lights of today's food universe, just as Julia used to do from her own famous kitchen. New episodes air on Heritage Radio Network, Wednesdays at noon Eastern.
+
+[38:24] Listen in
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. With Bob's Red Mill, you're not just getting quality, you're getting flavor-packed, healthy food that tastes great. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to learn more and use the code CookingIssues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:25] We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 on where are we?
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+[1:02] Anyway, Roberta Spizzaria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual. Well, that was a fast cutoff in the clap there. Yeah, well, they're very disciplined. Well.
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+[1:15] Well, McGall will do you first, Dave. Dave in the booth with the with the fast clap. What up? How you doing? Good.
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+[1:20] How about you? I'm doing all right. Uh last week I was in Denver, right? We could talk about that. Uh to visit a dispensary.
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+[1:26] Uh I did not, in fact, uh deliver a sp uh uh sorry, visit a dispensary. Uh, as you may or may not know, uh, I am not a uh user of marijuana. I I have no problem with it. It's just uh it's never been my thing. I'm more of a liquor guy.
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+[1:41] Now I know people who are very, very fond of it. Uh, and it is a fantastic place to go. Are you a dispensary person? No. Really?
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+[1:48] It's like when it becomes legal here, will you use it? Maybe. I don't know. I gotta find the right kind, you know. Yeah.
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+[1:54] Yeah. Uh, and got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Yeah?
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+[1:58] Good. So uh we have some uh interesting things to talk about. Uh first of all, today, to today the f well, Bob's Redmill just signed on to uh do more um what's it called uh sponsorship of the of the radio program, right? Love those guys. Love the Bob's red mill.
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+[2:12] As we've said many times, it is not Bob's mill that is red, it is Bob's red mill. There it is as a there's no green, there's no green mill, there's no purple mill. It's not like the dude's got like 15 mills and the red mill is one of them. It's just Bob's red mill. And as a part of uh signing on, you know, to be a sponsor of the show, he sent us uh a Bob's bobblehead.
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+[2:35] So what do you think of it, Stas? It's right here on the table. It's a hefty bobblehead. And you know, Nastasia, I will say it this way. Uh it's a bobbleheads are the exact opposite of like the camera.
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+[2:45] You know how they say the camera like puts on 10 pounds? The bobblehead like takes off 10, 15 pounds. You know what I mean? Yeah, right. Takes it out of the body and adds it to the head.
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+[2:54] Another interesting thing, I don't know if you guys know this, but bobbleheads, like a high quality bobblehead, which Bob's red mill bobbleheads, very high quality. They ship with a neck brace on them so that they don't bobble in transit. Did you know that? No. Yeah, the head's totally locked in transit and then only bobbles when it's removed from its bobble brace.
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+[3:12] You don't want any unauthorized bobbling. No, no, yeah. First of all, the one thing is that you don't want someone, it's like, why would you here's my least favorite phrase people use? So I'm about to use it. Why would you if you get the milk for free?
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+[3:24] Why buy the cow? You know what I mean? Don't you hate that phrase, Nastasia? I thought you were gonna say it is what it is. You hate that phrase?
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+[3:30] That's the worst. Well, what do you mean? Because it's just like meaningless. It's circular logic. Well, but it is what it is, is what you it's supposed to be meaningless because it's like I have nothing to add here.
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+[3:40] I'm just going to string some words together so that there's not a pause in the conversation. Just say nothing. No one likes it when you just say nothing. If you just say nothing, that's like super awkward. Like, right, Stas?
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+[3:51] If you're like, um, I can't believe this broke, this sucks. Oh my God, what are we gonna do? Like, I feel like that it is what it is, is like that one phrase you always say, no choice, no problem. Ugh. No, no choice, no problem is I say that when you know someone's like getting all bent out of shape and there's nothing they're gonna freaking do about it, right?
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+[4:10] It is what it is. You don't even usually when you say it is what it is, you could just say nothing if it weren't awkward. Am I right, Dave? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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+[4:19] But like, for instance, on a radio program, you can't just have awkward silence. That doesn't work. And that's about as long as I can let you know. I know, I know. I can't let it go.
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+[4:32] It is what it is. Also, let me just let me just throw in one more that I that I really hate, which is let's agree to disagree. Yeah, because that's not an agreement. And first of all, that's such like it's such an aggressive thing to say. You know what?
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+[4:45] Let's agree to disagree. No. It's it's saying like I do not accept your logic. I am just going to turn inward and double down on my incorrect thinking. Well, but it also assumes that you're correct, too, right?
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+[4:59] I mean, like when you say let's agree to disagree, it's like not only it's it's like I'm still right and you're not worth discussing this code. True. I mean, that's that's presupposing that one person is right in this equation, but that's not always true. No, but I think anyone that says that just believes they are right and also doesn't believe you're worth trying to turn to the correct side. Yeah.
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+[5:18] I mean, it's like, I don't know. It's let's agree to disagree on the meaning of that. Uh so also, uh, see, recently, what'd I do? I went to uh Denver, visited a candy factory, which I I'm allowed to talk to. I can't talk about why I was there.
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+[5:29] We could talk about visiting the Somebody saw you on a show. Oh yeah. Uh I I am on an episode of Nail It on uh Netflix with uh Nicole Bayer and uh Jacques Therese. Uh I haven't seen it, I won't see it. I won't watch it.
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+[5:47] Yeah, they were like, did you see that? No, I'm not watching anything I'm in. Never. Like you didn't ever watch you on a show. No, of course not.
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+[5:54] You can't you can barely watch me in the real life, and you know, like in the real life, at least you can make fun of me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like on a show, yeah, you can't even make fun of me and have me know about it. Because, you know, for those of you that know, Nastasi is a cruel hearted person.
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+[6:09] Uh that's true. But she doesn't injoy making fun of you unless you get to get her back. She doesn't like like one-sided making fun. Like, she's why she doesn't make fun of dead people because what's the point? They can't come back at her.
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+[6:26] You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So for all of her like inherent cruelty, she she likes to she likes to she has a code. Yeah, she likes to, you know, she doesn't mind like taking it as well as as you know, as giving it out. That's true.
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+[6:37] And so, and that's the reason why I can get along with her. If she, if she was just a, you know, one way or the other, I couldn't, I couldn't handle it. That's why Nastasi and I, which is I mean, we shouldn't talk about it, bad to say, but like, you know, we can be kind of punishing on people, but we know whether they're gonna survive working with us or not if they give it back to us. Yeah, you know what I mean? When Booker was at work, Mark was like, Nastasi's a mean person, isn't she?
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+[6:59] And Booker was like, No, never. I've known her for 10 years. Yeah, well. And I was like, that is so sweet. Yeah, because okay, Nastasia is also preferentially nicer to certain people.
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+[7:08] Yeah, so Booker, uh, of Booker and Dax, uh, my children, Booker now is an employee of Pastaflyer. Nepotism. Yeah, someone's like, hashtag nepotism. What? Like, I like how else are you supposed to get your first job?
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+[7:20] So and I was super proud he worked the Fry Station, which is like super. I mean, like, what could be better? I mean, that's although he did say multiple times to the other staff members on Friday Station, I'm very sensitive to heat. Yeah, yeah. You know what's funny?
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+[7:32] He got he got home and burned himself at home. Oh wow. I was like, you know what? If you're gonna work in the food service industry and you're worried about getting burnt, like, I mean, your career is not very long here. You know what I mean?
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+[7:43] Um, do you know John Oliver? Yes. He did a uh string together of Rachel Ray saying that her fingers don't have any feeling anymore. Oh my god, it's so hilarious. So it's Rachel Ray, but he cut it so that she just looks really kind of like depressed and beaten down.
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+[7:57] She looks like she doesn't have feelings of any kind anymore. Right, but she's basically just like trying to say that she's cooked for a long time, and so she can't feel her fingertips anymore because they've been burnt so often. But if you see it all strong together, she's like, I have no feeling. He's funny, he's a funny guy. Anyway, uh, so also with Pasta Flyer, not only is Booker working there, but Nastasia now has found a new skill.
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+[8:18] What is it, Nastasia? Oh, I am uh I I am a connoisseur of black people made of tread carefully here. Yeah, free hand uh construction paper portraiture. Yeah, yeah, well, portraiture. Yeah, so this Nastasia calls me and says this to me, and I'm like, Nastasia, first of all, what?
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+[8:41] I'm like, what? Like, first of all, like you're yeah, as Dave said, you're treading on some super thin ice here. I don't know where you're going with this. Right, Dave. Do you even still know where she's going with this?
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+[8:51] I hesitate to ask. All right, Nastasi, where are you going with this? We so we try to get a lot of famous people to to eat our food, and I'm, and I've uh we've catered for Saturday Night Live and then Twice. Twice. And the roots.
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+[9:06] And um we have these boxes that we give out, and I try to put something funny about the person on each box, the celebrity on each box. Yeah. So like so like Leslie Jones didn't trust you. She tweeted that out. She said, I don't trust this box.
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+[9:21] I'm suspicious. But when you did the roots, what happened? First of all, to say what you did for the roots, which was like. I just did each of their faces on the box. So the hand.
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+[9:32] So I know like template. Dave, did you know this was a genre freehand construction paper portraiture? News to me. Yeah, well, there you go. Nastasia with the free hand construction paper portraiture.
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+[9:42] And then what happened? And then one of the roots, uh, the keyboardist, uh, posted his portrait on his Instagram, and he got a lot of uh comments from other famous people like DJ Jazzy Jeff and the guy that wrote the Chappelle show. Which I was very proud of. And they were all making fun of the drawing that are the uh freehand construction paper portraiture that I did. Which I like because I can take it.
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+[10:07] Because you could take it as a skill. Well, no, what's the one you couldn't take? Leslie Jones. I didn't like that she was suspicious of it. Like it's like she knows it.
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+[10:16] What do you mean? She should be suspicious. Uh all right, calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 7184972128. All right.
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+[10:25] Uh so should we do some actual questions on the question based program? Uh start with a shape of water. I don't know what's in the cocktail. So, you know, Quinn Quinn who uh I'll I'll read that thing. It's because it's somewhere.
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+[10:37] You put this somewhere in the document, right? Uh not sure okay. Okay, this is from Quinn who called in. He was the one who wanted to know about um, I guess uh working in the business, right? How to get started in this business of kind of tech-related stuff.
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+[10:50] He's on Vancouver Island, and he can't really travel. Uh anyway, not sure if you or Dave are big movie people, but I thought you might find this cool. I developed a carbonated cocktail based on the shape of water, and one of the actors from the movie made it. Which actor from the movie made it? Um I've never seen the movie.
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+[11:07] Oh, it's a good movie. I liked it. I watched it. Anyway, uh go check him out. Check out the uh Quinn's YouTube, which is what's his YouTube thing?
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+[11:13] It's called uh Cooking by Q or something like this. Cooking with Q. Cooking with Q. Check it out. Uh I like carbonated.
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+[11:20] I believe it was a mixture of blue curacao, of which, by the way, everyone here knows I'm not a fan of the blue curacao. Because here let me tell you why. Let me tell you why I don't like blue curaca. Uh, even though, so I had a rule at Booker and Dax of no blue curacao uh in the house. Like we wouldn't stock it, we wouldn't use it.
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+[11:37] Uh if you want a blue cocktail, just use F and D C blue, right? Because if I want to use a high quality orange product, I'll use Quantro, I'll use Grand Marnier, I'll use Combier, I'll use a uh a good tasting orange product. And then I will just make the crap blue with artificial food color. Because you know how they make blue curacao? They take crappy orange liqueur and then add F and D C blue food coloring to it.
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+[12:02] So you might as well just skip the middle person and get a good tasting product and add fake color to it. What do you think, Dave? Uh yeah. Yeah. But then I'm like, hey, guess what?
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+[12:12] Let's not add fake coloring to our stuff because I don't like that. Uh now listen, this is me. So then the first thing Nick Bennett does, Nick Bennett, uh, you know, former head bartender at Booker Dax before Jack Shram, goes to start his own program at Porch Light. Very first signature drink on the menu is full of blue Curacao. I was like, Nick, man.
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+[12:31] Nick. But it's it's and he still makes it. It's like one of his better known, uh, better known drinks. Look, I appreciate the blue. What do you hate it?
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+[12:38] Why do I hate it? Yeah. It doesn't fit my style. I hate it for me. I don't actually mind the taste of it.
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+[12:44] My thing is that I would, I would prefer using a better liqueur with blue food coloring. So I literally would just add blue food coloring if you want the blue. Do you know what I mean? Like, first of all, like, why should why should blue drinks just be limited to ones that you want orange flavor in? Right?
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+[13:03] I mean, if you're thinking of of like a flavor that would be orange, would it be, I mean, sorry, blue, would it be orange? It would be blue raspberry. Which also doesn't exist. That's like the interesting, like, how did like I like there's been a couple case studies in how the idea of blue raspberry came to be a thing because there aren't any blue raspberries. There aren't even blue blueberries.
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+[13:21] You think it would be blueberry, right? The problem is real blueberry has a very heavy purple tinge, and so you can never get it to be blue. In order to get an actual blue color in a stirred style drink, which is or even in like a tiki style drink, uh, you need to start with a clear base, right? And so, like a lot of these uh triple sec uh quantro things are clear, which makes them ideal for uh food coloring addition. Whereas things that have like raspberry, uh like real raspberry or any blueberry in them are so darkly pigmented already, you can't ride over them with that kind of neon blue.
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+[13:55] Um but the shape of water uh cocktail, he also adds some uh green chartreuse to it, which by the way, always a good thing. I'm very huge fan of uh chartreuse and carbonated cocktails. Very huge fan. Love, love a little bit, goes a long way. Little bit.
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+[14:10] Although you remember that one drink that you didn't like it, but it was called Chartreuse. It was just water, green chartreuse, and and uh clarified lime juice. No, just it's called chartreuse with chut. Oh, you're talking about the hot chocolate. So there's a classic uh hot chocolate and chartreuse thing.
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+[14:25] No, but this is just chartreuse, water, and uh, and clarified lime, carbonated. And it's real good, but you have to really real good, but you have to like um you have to like green chartreuse a lot, do you? Yeah, I like drinking it just it's just straight. Yeah, yeah. Made by those crazy monks.
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+[14:42] All right. So, okay, now uh back to uh a question here. Uh wait, Dave, tell the story of uh Daniel Day Lewis's role. That's your story. No, it's not.
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+[14:53] You can't. What do you mean what even brought that to wine? Oh, I know. He's not in that. He's in what is he in, David?
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+[15:00] Uh, I don't even know. The phantom uh, didn't you say he retired and uh and is gonna bake pastries now? No, so for the phantom bread. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's that P.T.
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+[15:11] Anderson movie that got like no publicity. Yeah, he made his wife a full-on coutu dress to get into the role. Of course, yeah. So it's Nastasia, like he has nothing to do with cooking. This is your thing, though.
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+[15:22] There's nothing to do with cooking. It's like it. Oh, it's like, I don't know. We'll get into it later. Let's see, yeah.
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+[15:27] Did you make Nastasia a dress? No. No, no, it's like basically those. Actually, it was Jen, Dave's wife, who was like, you imagine living with him when he's doing these roles. Like Lincoln when he was like Lincoln when he came home to his wife.
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+[15:39] Yeah, or like Bill the Butcher Pool. Imagine, imagine like, you know, this method actor, you come home at night and you're like living with Bill the Butcher freaking pool, and he's not showered for like a month, and he's like throwing cleavers into the table and wearing that damn top hat. Like you never know who's gonna come home at night. So we were joking, you know, Daniel Day Lewis's toughest role ever. Loving father of two, and hopefully.
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+[16:00] You know what I mean? It's like come home and act normal, you know what I mean? But um anyway, all right. New lifetime movie starring Daniel Day Lewis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[16:11] Like toughest role to date. Um it kind of would be, right? It would, yeah. Yeah, anyway. So Kevin writes in uh long story short.
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+[16:22] Of course, I'm not gonna make it short, right? Because I'm gonna go into five tan tangents. Long story short, I wanna open a cafe slash fast casual lunch spot in San Francisco, and had a couple of questions for Dave and Nastasia. Uh Nastasia Don't do it. Uh stay out.
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+[16:43] Get out. Well, fast casual. So what's the difference, Nastasia? Before we get into it. What's the difference between quick service, like a quick service, which is what everyone's shooting for, and fast casual?
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+[16:53] It's like just one's a subset of the other. Fast casual is more expensive. Like 11 to 12 dollars. And quick service is good sit down and get your food taken. Table service.
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+[17:03] Yeah, I imagine quick service, you don't sit, right? Service, you don't sit. Quick service is more like fast food. So fast casual is like that's your Applebee's T G I S. That's still sit down.
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+[17:16] You said fast casual is sit down. Can be. Oh man. I don't know. Anyway.
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+[17:21] All right. Now that now that you are the expert on opening these uh these situations. All right. Uh had a couple of questions for Dave and Anastasia. Hey, would you ever move back to the uh Bay Area?
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+[17:32] No. Never? No. Not ever? Mm-mm.
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+[17:35] Why? Why? I don't I didn't really like it. You didn't like the place or the people? Both.
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+[17:40] Both. Yeah. Yeah, you got that East Coast attitude. She you know how like um, you know how like shark skin, like Nastasia will always rub against shark skin the wrong way. You know what I'm saying?
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+[17:54] It's like a saying someone from someone from San Francisco will will rub their hand along shark skin in the way that won't cut them. I don't like and Nastasi will always go the abrasive direction. I don't like the rich people who dress like crap, you know, like all the Silicon Valley people and all that stuff. If you're gonna like, I would rather be a rich wasp. Okay, so Nastasia used to be a fan of Bjork until what?
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+[18:15] What? She got her eyes surgery. She saw Bjork at a party and her sneakers were dirty. And like she's like, that lady is too rich to be wearing filthy sneakers. I'm done with her.
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+[18:25] That's true. Yeah, where was she? She was at a questlove salon. Anyway, uh so the whole guiding philosophy is act your income bracket. Yeah.
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+[18:33] I don't know. It's nostalgia. It's just Nastasia talking, not me. If I were super rich, I would go live on Central Park South or West and not go to like deep Brooklyn and new pair of sneakers every day. Every day a new pair of sneakers.
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+[18:47] Wow. Oh, Zappos would love that. Oh my god, right? Anyway. Uh okay, a little more background.
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+[18:53] I run a non currently run a nonprofit that trains folks transitioning out of homelessness, uh, training them in the kitchen. My style of cooking is plant-based, so I guess that means vegetarian, right? Possibly vegan. What do you think, Dave? Is plant based mean vegan or vegetarian?
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+[19:07] Unclear. Unclear. I guess eggs, not a plant. So plant based though can have other stuff. I could have a plant based cooking that has bacon as an accent note, can't can't I?
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+[19:16] It's based in plants. It's all very vague. It's not based in meat, it's based in plants. Yeah, it's unclear. If you mean vegetarian, uh Kevin, let me know.
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+[19:25] Uh plant-based Mexican inspired cuisine. We've been doing dinner pop-ups for about a year now, but want to have more regularity and sell more food by having our own space. Question. When opening a new food business, and here's where you come in, Nastasia, what's your process like for recipe testing and deciding on your core product slash the thing that people will know and seek you out for? This will be our first brick and mortar food business.
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+[19:46] Uh, any general advice you'd give me or similar people for starting there first, would love to hear about both of your experiences. All right, Stas, go. Um, I would stick with the pop-ups and not open your own place. Come on, you hated doing the pop-up. That sucks too, but yeah.
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+[20:01] Well, the thing, okay. So the main difference between a pop-up. The worst part of a restaurant is employees. It's true. She's like, you know what?
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+[20:08] I like everything about the food business except the people that make the food and the people that eat the food. Right? No, the people eat the food are fine. Yeah. But okay, so here's what I'm gonna say.
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+[20:17] As long as they're paying. The difference between a pop-up and a uh like a full-on brick and mortar space is that you have more, I would say more control over the consumer in a pop-up scenario than you have in a um in a brick and mortar for this reason. In a pop-up, everyone knows it's kind of a limited time only. People a lot of times are seeking out a pop-up, so they already kind of know what your shtick is. And so you have a little more leeway, I would say, in a pop-up to go outside of someone's normal envelope or comfort zone than you would having a brick and mortar space, unless you have such a well known shtick that people are going or being driven to your brick and mortar space by your shtick, right?
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+[21:00] Wouldn't you say that's true, Stas? And so um, it's the same way that like when you're doing cooking demonstrations or a live events where you get to control the customer experience more than you would in a normal dining scenario, you get to go a little further outside of someone's normal zone because you have the ability to kind of steer their mind in the direction you want it to go. Whereas in a sit-down environment, or if they're if they're just coming in off the street for foot traffic, it's not necessarily the same. I think the same goes with press. Press have a different uh expectation of an establishment when it is a permanent establishment than when it's a pop-up.
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+[21:38] Wouldn't you say and so you have to like they're worried a lot more about uh and you have to worry a lot more about uh are you cultivating regulars. I'd much rather have um I'd much rather have a like a base of regulars because they're like steady and you get them going and so you have to design also around uh you know you design different kinds of meals, different kinds of things if you expect someone to eat it, you know, once a week, as opposed to that is this a once a month or once a year or once in your life kind of uh a situation, wouldn't you say, Stas? Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is is that I would do I as Nastasia says, I would do a lot of pop-ups beforehand because what you like or even what's successful in one or two pop-ups isn't necessarily gonna be the the hit later on down the road. And there's not only what is a hit, well, here's the the flip side of that.
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+[22:31] Something when you're developing something, and Nastasi, you can you know about this more than anyone, like you want that sucker, especially it's fast casual, bulletproof, right? That is true. I'm assuming if it's fast casual, that means that eventually you don't want to have to be there every day. And if you don't want it to be there every day, either you're gonna commissary that stuff out or you're gonna cook it in the back in relatively large batches. It needs to be you knee form, and you're gonna need to make sure that whoever's executing on the end isn't gonna hose your hose your product and kind of and kind of ruin it.
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+[23:02] So the hardest part is developing your recipes such that they can be bulletproofed, right? Yeah, well, you know, Mark hasn't not been at the restaurant since we opened. Because nothing is bulletproof. Yeah, but that's what he's working with. They just care about their paycheck.
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+[23:25] Wow. Wow. Good luck. Well, that's the thing. Like, don't expect, like, if you're in a fine dining establishment, right?
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+[23:33] Or if you're doing something uh, you know, non-profit, you can get true believers. And true believers will work because they're true believers, right? Once you're in a it's just a paycheck environment, then you have to worry that they no longer care. And if they no longer care, then the product has to be truly bulletproof. Right?
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+[23:54] That means that's why McDonald, you know, that's why all those places are there's no cooking. Yeah, because nobody cares. Right, right. Grab, put it. No, but the but the hard part there is is that is that if your supply chain doesn't make make sure the stuff's a real cook, right, is on the fly, changing what they're doing constantly based on the input they get.
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+[24:16] So if the produce comes in and it's different today than it was yesterday or the week before, you adjust on the fly. That's actually the hard part about doing the kind of bar that like I'm doing. Most bartenders aren't used to having to do lots of on-the-fly adjustment for ingredients, because most bartending work is done with ingredients that you can just buy and they're standard, you know, or they're in a relatively narrow um, you know, range of stuff. Once you start dealing with produce that can be vastly different from day to day, it becomes very hard to bulletproof your recipes. And so I think that's that's what you need to kind of focus on.
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+[24:52] Don't focus on what you can make, you know, yourself or when you're leading the crew, what can you pull off? It's more like what is the highest quality, slam dunkingest best thing that I can make that's resilient. So that's why, and resilient doesn't necessarily mean in cooking and in bar, resilient doesn't necessarily mean identical. Obviously, you're focusing on uh consistency, right? That's the main thing, consistency from day to day, from cook to cook, uh, from uh you know, week to week.
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+[25:24] But you have to accept the fact that there is going to be variance, and so certain recipes are what I like to call stable. In other words, a change in a particular ingredient one way or the other is not going to drastically change the flavor of the dish. Uh, and some recipes are very unstable. And so um I would steer away from recipes where slight changes in the seasoning, slight changes in the cooking time, slight changes in the hold time on the line, you know, radically changed the um change the uh outcome of the dish. What do you think, Steph?
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+[26:04] Yeah, no, how are you finding your employees? And did you were ever worry at Booker and Dax that people were not representing the drink the way that you imagined it to be? Uh n well, no, but uh like the thing about Booker and Dax was is that I loved our team. I loved our crew. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:23] And um I thought, you know, the the vast, vast majority of the people that I worked with at Booker and Dax wanted to be in the bar uh as professionals and they were devoted to doing a good job. You know what I mean? And that's you know, that's the benefit. In a way, you know, in a way people outside people don't understand how hard it is to try to design a program around people that don't necessarily care about the product. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:55] Like it's I would say it's probably harder. I mean, look at Mark, right? So Mark now is running Pasta Flyer and before was running Del Posto. Everyone in Del Posto, you know, fanciest Italian restaurant there is here, right? Everyone there was a believer.
+
+[27:09] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like they're all, you know, I mean, ever everyone on the team, especially the higher ups on the team, they're all like aiming every day to try to produce the best product they can. What does he think's harder? Working Del Posto or working pasta flyer?
+
+[27:23] Right. And people don't the like regular outside person doesn't understand. And you're doing what, like two hundred like five hundred covers a night at Del Posto sometimes and three different dining rooms and all like a lot more going on than the two thousand square foot best food place. Right, but you you can trust that everyone on your team, like their primary goal. Now people are incompetent as Nastasia knows, people make mistakes, but everyone on the team is focused on the quality, not on money, because they can make more money doing something else, most of these people, right?
+
+[27:53] Uh and I felt the same at Booker and Dax. I think it's inherently harder to try to make a top quality product when I mean think of the work involved in having to take yourself out of the equation. People don't respect the amount of work it takes to make a good product that is uh invariant over the over the cook, over the right? Mm-hmm. I would apply this dynamic to heritage radio, in fact.
+
+[28:19] Yeah? How so? I don't really want to get into it, but yeah, you know, the analogy is uh definitely hitting home for me. Really? Yeah.
+
+[28:25] And you know, the other thing is Nastasia, so Mark Ladner, by the way, who used to do yoga. I don't know. I don't even know him when he did yoga. But what I mean is he's he's like in general, like calm and forgiving. Yeah.
+
+[28:35] Right? The opposite of you. Like you're basically opposites. Well, I'll tell you after the show happened. All right, all right, right.
+
+[28:41] So anyway, so like Mark always, he kind of makes fun of both you know Nastasia and of me, because he's like, You guys think everyone's incompetent. You think that you're you know better than everyone and Nastasian are like, no. No. What we have is we know we suck. That's like all we have.
+
+[28:59] Like I always tell him and our staff, like, no one is harder on me than me. So like I I I am the the toughest critic of myself. And I think myself, like, yeah. See she thinks she's good at darts, and in fact, she's garbage. She's garbage at darts.
+
+[29:16] But anyway, um, yeah. The other thing that he hates about us is that we just get it done and don't really think about like the consequences. So anyone that knows a look, like for instance, I'll give you an example. So we're working on the new bar, right? Which I haven't announced yet, so whatever, it doesn't exist whatever.
+
+[29:35] But anyway, so I'm working on the new bar yesterday, and uh we didn't want to have to do it because we're trying to use as much of the stuff as we had in the space as possible, more on that later. So I have but we have to move the bar. And so our contractor basically said, I can't, oh, the I got the bar, the physical bar. So the contractor said, I can't move the bar, we're gonna have to build a new bar. So I'm like, well, if we're gonna build a new bar, I want it to be something nice, not something garbage, right?
+
+[30:01] And so then, and then it's like we're sitting, everyone's talking, oh this, oh this, oh this, oh this, what if this, what if this? Yeah, and I can't say this because the family show. I'll I'll say crapped instead of right. So my stepfather's favorite phrase, one of his favorite phrases is you know, choose your favorite, like it could be if, it could be but, it could be, you know, so if we'll use if, right? If we did this, if we did that, if crapped himself.
+
+[30:25] Meaning, like you sit around, you say, if if if if if if you never get anything done, you never make it to the bathroom, you poop your pants. If crapped himself. Now you replace that with sugar honey iced tea, and you have an actual, an actual Gerard Adonisio phrase. And by the way, there is no one better at the curse phrase than my stepfather Gerard. I mean, he is like, he is like from from birth, gifted with a series of salty, salty phrases.
+
+[30:55] Uh, but you know, if crapped himself, you know what another it's not salty at all. And only very few people understand this. People who deal with smart people, kids especially, here's what you say. How smart? That's how stupid.
+
+[31:09] You understand what I'm saying, Nastasia? Yes, you're like, you're so smart, how could you do such dumb things? And so the phrase you could use is how smart, that's how stupid. And so he used to use that on me all the time. He would just look at me and say that.
+
+[31:20] I'm like, oh crap. Anyway, so yesterday we're like arguing about the bar. So uh Jack and Bobby from the bar and I just go to Rosen Swig's and pick out uh literally one ton, two thousand pounds of lumber. And so, again, I'm not announcing anything about the bar, this doesn't exist, whatever, but like, yeah, solid two and a half inch thick mahogany. Wow, wow.
+
+[31:44] I'm just sick of crap. I'm sick of garbage. You know what I mean? Like, I have a feeling, and of course the people at Rosen Sweeks believe this because they, you know, sell wood for a living. But I think that you know, the difference between like a thin layer of plywood or like mahogany boards, like laminated together like over plywood, people are gonna be able to tell the difference between that and two and a half inch thick freaking mahogany, right?
+
+[32:08] So the boards are like 10 and a half inches wide, two and a half inches thick. So it's just three boards, they're 15 feet long, so two of them to make up the you know, two of those sections to make up the bars. That has yet to be determined. It turns out my track saw is not quite, doesn't quite have an enough penetration to go all the way through this stuff. So either I have to buy the fest tool, which is a very nice track saw, else let the contractor do it.
+
+[32:34] Nice. So you just got it done. Just got it done. That's why I got to the story. Just get the get it done.
+
+[32:38] Exactly. This is given chat room wood, in fact. Yeah, they seem pretty excited about this. Yeah, so here's what we're gonna do with the mahogany too, right? So, first of all, the reason you know, mahogany, you have to make sure that the mahogany you get is uh there are unsustainable ways.
+
+[32:51] They the people at Rosen Swee's told us that this is you know um managed, so it's not we're not cutting down the last tree in the neighborhood where it came from. Um where'd it come from? Uh I don't remember whether this one's African or South American. Anyway, uh it's called uh uh Sapelli is the variety, because it's cheaper than the than the other mahogany, and still mahogany is beautiful, one water resistant is the other, and has a nice hand, meaning it feels good once it's finished. So what we plan on doing, the nice thing about the solid material is that when you're when you're running a bar, what you want at the back of the bart on the bartender's side is a nice drain rail.
+
+[33:30] So the way that a lot of people accomplish the drain rail is you build your bar and then you put a stainless steel drip pan, like a s like a between six and eight, eights better uh drain rail pan on the back, and uh you put um like a perforated stainless over that. And so that's when you're pouring when it spills, it just spills down. You can clean it at the end of the night. So it's a lot better than rubber mats because rubber mats, when you pick them up, they spill. Also, the rubber mats aren't level with your mixing uh with your bar, so you can't just slide your glasses off the rubber mat.
+
+[34:02] Uh so rubber mats are great for home. At home you should get a rubber mat, but uh at a bar, it's not ideal. But what we're doing is like so much nicer because we're just gonna mill, we're gonna route the tray into the solid mahogany, super waterproof it, and then just put dry decking down on the on where it goes, so that it's just gonna be the the drip thing is gonna be just part of our freaking solid mahogany bar. I'm super jazzed about it. Like I hope it comes out well because uh lifting that much wood because when you buy that kind of lumber.
+
+[34:33] Did you did you put it? No, you didn't we're on the subway. How did you how are you? We hired a guy named Reggie, and so I sat around making Indiana Jones jokes the entire time. That's just my pet snake Reggie.
+
+[34:45] Remember that guy from the beginning of Indiana Jones? Anyway, so what you do is this lumber doesn't come because literally they're just like they saw it into whatever width it happens to be. They take the tree, they saw it, they saw the bark off, and so it's random lengths, random widths. And so you have to sit there and just sift through all these piles of lumber, trying to get wood that matches color-wise, and trying to so we and the and the yard dogs, as as Bobby was calling them, are like super, they're like, keep the piles neat, keep the piles neat, keep the piles neat. It's in the Bronx.
+
+[35:16] And then they're like, that pile's not neat enough. And we're like, hey, Jerko, we just bought half of your freaking mahogany. How the hell am I supposed to make the pile look like it looked before when it's half as full as it used to be? By the way, if you're in the market for one and a half inch thick, uh like uh finished sapelli boards for tables or two and a half inch thick sapelli, now is not the time to go to Rosen Sweets because we bought those suckers out. We bought like all of the good wood.
+
+[35:41] The stuff that's left might as well be a corkscrew. So give them a couple weeks. Give them a couple of weeks to uh to get back to all right. So anyway, so um hopefully, Kevin, we uh answered some of your questions about uh developing. I don't think we did, but you want to take a break?
+
+[35:57] Take a break, come back more with cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Our question this week comes from Lucy. She says, I'm working on a homemade gluten-free bread for my son who has celiac. Are there any tricks for adding more structure and rise when using a gluten-free flour?
+
+[36:26] Yeah, so there's a lot of tricks. Everything with gluten-free baking is about the specific application. So it's it's hard to say. Uh what'd she say she was making? She's bread?
+
+[36:36] Gluten-free bread. Bread. I mean, depending on whether it's like a quick bread or whether you're actually trying to mimic uh a bread bread. The the thing, the main thing that gluten is doing is providing uh structure. So this like allows you to form things properly.
+
+[36:48] It's also what kind of holds it together, it allows it to expand and have the uh air pockets in it like a normal bread. So it's providing that structure during the rise uh and bake time. Uh and then afterwards, it's also providing some of the texture from the from the protein afterwards, but the starch then is setting it after. So what you need is something in there to hold the structure while it's rising uh and baking. And there's various ways you could do it.
+
+[37:10] I mean, if it's supposed to be a tender, egg-y kind of bread, then just add more kind of egg replacer or something that goes in there. And in fact, when you know, people like the good folks at Bob's Red Mill are designing gluten-free flour replacers, they're designing it specifically to try to have those properties when you're baking. But you need to buy the product that is specific to the application you're looking for. So you if you're trying to do bread, not a quick bread, but bread, a risen bread, you need to buy a replacer that is specifically intended for something like that. And that kind of frankly, a standard bread is the hardest of the things to do.
+
+[37:45] Another trick that I haven't played with too much, but precooked starches are a good way to add some texture and snap to a product, you know, a partially pre-cooked starch base is a good way to add some texture. And that's how the way like a lot of like noodle bases and whatnot are done in uh Asian cultures. Uh, if you have more questions about Bob's Red Mill products, tweet them on in to heritage underscore radio. If you want to go the gluten-free or paleo route when baking, Bob's Red Mill has tons of options. Go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking issues.
+
+[38:15] That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. And and remember, remember, when you're subbing out a product for a traditional product, there is no one substitute meets all. So, you know, the great thing about Bob's Red Mill is they have a very wide range of products, and just look into their whole range. I'm sure they have a product to fit your specific application. And we're back.
+
+[38:44] I'll tell you what. I tell you what, Dave. You know what's torture? Having to listen to us during our own break. It's supposed to be a break.
+
+[38:57] We have to hear ourselves. Take off the headphones. I can't even. I can still hear it through the break from myself. Again, now you know how I feel.
+
+[39:06] Wow. Why can't we just keep it silent? Well, we know how Dave feels about radio silence, don't we? Uh, true, true. Bringing it back.
+
+[39:15] Bringing it back. So, we got a question in uh from Jay. Jay says, having problems with my kilbasa. Is he writing in all caps? I just wanted to say that someone was calling in saying that they have a writing and saying they have a problem with their kilbasa.
+
+[39:31] Wrong show, Jay. Wrong show. Don't we have a show for people who are having problems with their killbasa? What's it called? Uh we had Love Bites.
+
+[39:38] It's on hiatus, though. Oh yeah. Who was the host? Uh Jacqueline Raposo and Ben Rosenblatt. Yeah.
+
+[39:44] Yeah. So uh this is the actual problem with Kilbasa, not with anyway. Uh so uh Jay is using uh Poulson's recipe, presumably the one out of the charcuterie book, Brian Poulson's recipe. Um having problems with an off-putting. What do you think about the word off-putting?
+
+[40:03] Shoot. What? What did you say shoot? You just said shoot on the mic in the air. What are you saying shoot about?
+
+[40:08] I don't have shoes for dinner. Oh, wait. Literally, Nastasia is looking at the internet and realizing. I just realized I have to go out to dinner and I'm wearing snow boots. Where are you going out to dinner?
+
+[40:20] Legacy records. It is snowing. Wait, you hope to just have like a Jay-Z sighting or something like this? Nastasia wants. What?
+
+[40:28] I just can't wear snow boots. Can you fancy them up? Maybe we can spray them and put sparkles on them. Gold snow boots. You can't wear nice shoes when it's crappy out.
+
+[40:35] Well, you're the one that got dressed this morning, Nastasia. I didn't get dressed for you. I know. Anyway. Uh, we're back to the to you to the actual question at hand.
+
+[40:45] If any of you have some suggestions for Nastasia going to Legacy Records. No, I think I'm Didn't you already go there? Yeah. And you're going again? Yeah.
+
+[40:53] All right. Uh using Polson's recipe, I'm having problems with an off-putting, almost sulfurous flavor. The flavor is much more pronounced after pulling some out of the freezer a week later. Uh after stuffing, I use my after stuffing my akiwasa. Uh I use my circulator to cook the sausages in vac bags at 160 degrees Fahrenheit for an hour.
+
+[41:13] I've eliminated a lot of other possible variables, such as older milk powder that has been sitting in my pantry, for instance. I also replaced the sheep casings with a collagen casing this time around as well, just in case. Is it possible that the cooking environment is causing some type of bad flavor from the pink salt? I intend to do another pat uh batch next week and steam them, but figured I'd get your take on it. Thanks, Jay.
+
+[41:34] So um yeah, I don't know about this. I was looking at Polson's recipe. Polson's recipe is onion powder, mustard powder, milk powder, uh meat, uh, nitrite, uh, and and some uh some other stuff. And I actually uh texted um Johnny Hunter about it uh from Underground uh Food Collective and Underground Meats in Madison, trying to figure out what's kind of going on. I said, Have you ever had a problem like this just from meat?
+
+[42:01] And he said, No, it is true that a lot of the characteristic aromas of cooked meats are um kind of sulfur containing uh volatiles, right? The volatiles are, but usually you're not gonna get a sulfurous off note uh from at least and and Johnny didn't hadn't heard about this uh uh either. My guess is are you uh using uh so what is in in your in your ingredient list is heavily sulfur based. The two things that are heavily sulfur based are the mustard and the uh allium, right? The garlic powder or onion powder, whatever you're you're using.
+
+[42:35] Uh I would guess it's probably that. And so the real question is, especially at those temperatures, are you using fresh garlic instead of powder? Because if you're using fresh garlic, uh that could be a source of these uh aromas, because a lot of funky things can happen low temperature with garlic, especially on storage in in uh in a meat like that. So that's the first thing I look at. Is it that if not most of the super volatile aromas that are made, any unpleasant ones, should flash off.
+
+[43:05] If it's a bag related, so when you're cooking something in a vacuum bag, you can often get retained uh what I like to call high note volatiles, so volatiles that uh disappear relatively rapidly uh once it's open. But a lot of that is in raw meats, so you have what's called specifically known as confinement odor. So confinement odor is kind of the small amount of bacterial action that goes on in a vac packed uh piece of meat, um, or even I guess it could be other things that are happening in there. When you open the bag, those things are finally exposed uh to the air and they flash off and it has that bag flavor. You know I'm talking about styles, right?
+
+[43:40] When you open a vac bag of raw meat and it smells like vac bag raw meat. That's called confinement aroma. And so, like that confinement aroma will flash off. And so it's also possible to get cooked notes in uh undesirable cooked notes in bags. Uh, and and it is true, it's like more often than not, uh, pork.
+
+[43:57] Is it is uh killbasays with beef and pork, right? Anyway. Uh my mom used to send me kilbasas when I started college in the mail. Just specifically killbases. But like the more dried ones that were like, no, like the summer sausage-y type kibasas.
+
+[44:14] Yeah. And do you did you enjoy them? It was weird. I used to get a salami in the mail everyone, so but not but like a harder salami, like one that would keep, like one that didn't require refrigeration. Yeah.
+
+[44:25] It would just show up and just sit in the dorm for a while and you'd eat it. What's with the salami sending? Well, you know, like that, like uh, there was a thing in World War II, was it uh Katz's, that used to have a um uh, you know, a thing that's like send the salami to the soldier in the army. Yeah, yeah, send a salami to your boy in the army. Yeah, that's it.
+
+[44:46] Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, you know, what's something you can send to somebody that they don't have, right? That is expensive, that they don't have to refrigerate, that they can eat that's a taste of home. So apparently Nastasia ate a lot of kilbasas last summer sausage at home and realize also that Nastasia's mom would send her plants in the regular US mail, just like a plant, not like a seed, not a seed, Dave. A plant, like tomato plant, a pepper plant go to the home dealer.
+
+[45:18] Not only is it not probably legal, it's also not advisable. Like she would just go get like a potted plant. I swear to Christ, people, a potted plant, and then put that potted plant in a box with some wet newspaper and mail it. Now, as a formal po as a former postal employee, yeah, I can tell you we do not treat packages well, especially moist packages, do not get treated well. So And that plant killed off the entire community garden.
+
+[45:44] Yeah, so Nastasia, first of all, everybody knows California is where the stuff grows. I don't know why they call New Jersey the garden state, because all we got is corn and tomatoes, right? Like California, they legit grow stuff there, right? What that means is the mites, the mites that live in California are the hardiest, most badass mites. The mites.
+
+[46:08] The mites. And so Nastasia got some sort of tomato mite shipped to her, and like our puny New York like garden variety plants cannot withstand the full mightiness of the California mighty tomato mite. You could have wrecked the ecosystem. Yeah. Not could have.
+
+[46:26] I did. Did 48th Street Garden. No one had tomatoes that summer. I mean the larger ecosystem. Yeah.
+
+[46:34] You know, there's nothing Nastasia cares less about than other people. So there you go. So uh hopefully uh, yeah, he could Johnny couldn't think of any we were still talking about sausage about Kilbasa, right? So uh I would look at your allium base, right? Uh so if it's not strictly speaking the meat, if steaming doesn't steaming might also solve the problem, I'll tell you why, because um the higher temperatures involved in steaming, if it even if it is the garlic, will probably inactivate uh whatever's going on.
+
+[47:03] But uh my guess is is that a lot of off sulfur notes have to do with alliums. There's also a lot of like I say, sulfur compounds, because that's the primary kind of flavor compounds in a mustard. Um otherwise, like things like livery flavors are enhanced by bags, but you're not saying like a livery flavor, you're talking what I'm getting from you is more of an actual kind of sulfur thing, not a gamey or a kind of livery note. Anyway, and what do you think, Stuff? Good.
+
+[47:29] Nail it. I have to have to say nail it. I won't like so someone, a couple people have said that they've seen it. I'm like, uh, I'm like, nah, I can't watch. Can't watch.
+
+[47:39] Although it was fun to shoot. It was good to see Jacques Therese. Jacques Therese, one of the all-time like hardcore pastry chef guys. Jacques Therese, I think I've said this on the air before, can walk into the French Culinary Institute, just walk in and do like these like hardcore sugar like demos that it would take a normal person, they'd have to work up to it and practice for a while. He can just walk in and like manipulate sugar like it's like it's play-doh.
+
+[48:03] It's crazy. The guy's a sugar monster. Um okay, dear Dave, Dave in the booth, Nastasia, Peter, who doesn't show any more Peter. Peter is Peter. Working!
+
+[48:14] Working, busy, busy, busy. By the way, for those of you that don't know New Yorkers, the classic thing any New Yorker says, how you doing? Busy. That's all we ever say, right? If a New Yorker says, I'm doing well, you're like, wait, what?
+
+[48:28] No. The correct answer from around here. You're not from around here. The correct answer, the the New York way to say I'm doing fine is busy. You're right, actually.
+
+[48:39] I say that all the time now. That's New York. I don't think people do that everywhere. Like if you're like, you know, living in Spokane, you're not like, how you doing? Busy.
+
+[48:47] You? You know what I mean? Like, because the assumption here is that you have no worth unless you're busy. Like, oh, you're not busy when you get fired. That is partly true, however.
+
+[48:59] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Busy.
+
+[49:02] Uh okay. So uh what is it? Peter. This is a question from Uriah. We need Peter to come up with the show.
+
+[49:06] Yeah, Peter, busy. Uh, this is you, he is legitimately busy. I know. Yeah. What's he doing?
+
+[49:11] Well, we shut down the uh chow. We're doing a refurb on chow. I owe them a lot of work actually, because we're trying to add some more refurbished changeable books. There's so much stuff. That I have to do.
+
+[49:22] Book. I owe a book. That's late. So that's I don't tell my publisher, but the book's on the back burner until I get a couple of things knocked out. The bar has to get up and running.
+
+[49:31] One, there's a new Booker Index prototype that Nastasi, you've seen the first I think it is amazing. For the first proto, that was baller, right? Amazing. Let me tell you that like you think you think that we were, it is true in the past. Booker and DAX, we are trailing edge technology, as we've said many times.
+
+[49:46] Nastasi has gotten us booked into several. You see, we're in a we're teaching business students now about how to not run a business. It's amazing. We uh hey, Dave Nastasi, we brought you in literally literally, he said this yesterday. We brought you in specifically to talk about failure.
+
+[50:03] Go! Yeah, yeah. But we're gonna use these kids to help us with this third with the third. Well, fourth. Yeah.
+
+[50:12] You don't count, we don't count the cube. No. You know, you can still buy the uh buy the uh cocktail cube people, and I recommend it. It makes all of your drinks marginally but perceptibly better. That's our tagline.
+
+[50:22] Uh yeah, but the next the the next one, I think like the centrifuge is a niche market for people that want centrifuges. The Sears all is a good product, and obviously now we know that if it goes out of stock, there's problems. Uh the cocktail cube is marginally but perceptibly better. And the next one I'm thinking is gonna be just like Hopefully. Like hopefully that's like that's that's the one.
+
+[50:42] That's the one, right, Sas. That's the one that gets us that that lets you become what the leather man lets me get a house. Yeah, so we say it was like it's like if I get rich, what I do is I just dress up in recycled leather clothing and wander around Connecticut aimlessly. Oh, Leatherman. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[51:01] That's that's my version of being rich. It's been a while since we talked Leatherman. Yeah, I like Leatherman. You've seen the picture of me as Leatherman. Of course I have.
+
+[51:09] We used it as an episode photo at least twice, maybe three times. Yeah, it's worthy. I mean, like I use it again. We mentioned it. I looked apart.
+
+[51:16] I looked apart, right? Every time it gets mentioned, it has to be used as the episode photo. Yeah, tweet into Leatherman. Anyway, uh Wait, do we have that handle? Somebody has to have that handle over there.
+
+[51:25] Um I'm sure Leatherman, the company owns it, right? Or some or some sort of like, you know, person who wears a lot of buckskin. Yeah, more likely. Yeah. Uh this is Uriel.
+
+[51:35] Um I wanted to ask about how to make breadcrumbs shelf stable. I've been trying to get better at bread baking, which means I have a lot of leftover failed experiments. Hence I've been making a lot of breadcrumbs. Unfortunately, I don't actually use breadcrumbs very often. By the way, if you don't use breadcrumbs very often, you have a really good application for breadcrumbs, I think.
+
+[51:52] The fine ones, well, we'll get into this in a minute. It pasta. I love breadcrumbs on pasta. I was gonna say meatballs. Well, on top of pasta.
+
+[52:00] For those of you that never had it before, you're gonna be like, what is this idiot saying? That's stuch on stuch. You don't put starch on stuch. As uh, as uh what's his name? Uh um uh monk Tony Shaloub said in uh in Big Night, it's a starch, it's a starch.
+
+[52:16] You know what I mean? Like like uh, you know, you don't with you know pasta with risotto, which is true. I'll never forget my mom when she took me to Friendly's when I was a kid and I wanted to get like all the sides. I got like rice and corn, and she's like, No, two starches. You can't do that.
+
+[52:28] Yeah, Nastasia, what do you yell at me for two proteins or two starches? He gave his kid an egg and a piece of chicken. That's two proteins. You don't do it. Same protein.
+
+[52:36] Say proteins. Oh, well, no, different proteins. One's a baby. Anyway, point being is that although it might sound like it's not a good idea, breadcrumbs sprinkled over pasta. Especially with the oil we made in this interview.
+
+[52:44] Oh, ridiculous. And here's the thing, because it adds a crunch to the pasta, which is, I think, often desirable. And it has a history. So not just for kind of poverty cuisine, people that couldn't afford uh grated cheese, you know, for their pots, but also remember that a huge number of Italian recipes don't have cheese or dairy in them, specifically because they are designed around fast days, which is why fish recipes don't typically contain dairy and or cheese in Italian uh recipes, because all those fish ones are based on uh kind of either Lenten or fast uh fasting day recipes, of which one third of your days typically, right? You used to have just in my lifetime, people still did meatless Friday, but I can vouch for this, yeah.
+
+[53:32] Yeah, but it used to be a lot more days than just uh Friday. It was like because any random feast uh fast day was uh was a fast day, and so breadcrumbs are a good alternative. And you know, um anyway, so it's like breadcrumbs are are good for that. Uh it's it's my my thing I like to anyway. So back to the Uriel's question.
+
+[53:48] Um I don't use them very often. Was wondering how they could get the stuff you buy in stores shelf stable. I took Dave's advice and looked on the ingredient list at the back of the can, but didn't see anything helpful. I also tried Googling but didn't see anything there either. Would be great if I could figure it out.
+
+[54:01] Well, the good news is, Yuriel, that if you just make breadcrumbs uh normally, they are shelf stable, right? So what you want to do uh is I would let them stale out, first of all, like slice them thin, put them on a tray, let them stale out a hundred percent, then you can um toast out the I think the reason people have problems with breadcrumbs is they try to take fresh bread, toast it out, and then um, and then you always have uh a gummy inside and a crunchy outside. Those form those kind of bigger soft bread crumbs, which don't necessarily work in this, or they dry it out like a hundred percent, and then when they pulverize it, it gets real, real small, gets to a dust. I would I would slice them, stale them out till they're hard, pulse them down to bread crumb, and then toast out the bread crumbs. What do you think, Stuzz?
+
+[54:49] How do you guys do it? He puts yeah, stale um Sullivan Street bread and then oil, herbs. I don't know how to do it. Does he cook then pulse or pulse twice? Uh I don't know.
+
+[55:00] The point is is if you take if you make your breadcrumbs a hundred percent dry and toasted, and then you hit them in a in a RoboCoup or in a cuisinar, you'll turn them to dust. You'll get big pieces that don't break down, especially if you try to toast fresh bread. You'll toast fresh bread, the cores, which are resilient, will stay as big pieces and the outside will turn to dust. He does it is takes like a hotel pan, puts them in there, and then takes another hotel pan. And crushes them.
+
+[55:28] Right. So manual crushing is a good way if they're a hundred percent uh dry, right? So you can use manual crushing or like a pestle or something like that to get that's a good way to do it. But uh some combination of staling and or toasting, and then figuring out like when the crushing happens. Probably like a l like it.
+
+[55:43] But don't burn them. That's the other issue. Is like uh people often don't realize how fast and some once something is dry and the water is mostly gone out of it, it goes from zero to boint like right away. If you want them 100% shelf stable, I wouldn't oil them then because if you're gonna pack them in containers and you've oiled them and toasted them, they might go rancid over time. But just seal them in a container with no air.
+
+[56:06] If you have a vac, we used to take things like breadcrumbs. Let's say you live in Louisiana and it gets real humid. Uh, you can just take mason jars, put them in a vacuum, and then suck a vacuum on them. The mason jars will suck themselves down, and a breadcrumb will last uh through the next ice age in one of those environments. Alright, we gotta wrap it up.
+
+[56:22] Yeah, that's it, Dave. What? We actually did a full uh straight hour. Yeah, you should you should get used to this. Yeah, but we had we had a bunch of questions about how to use the spinzall.
+
+[56:33] I can do that next week, yeah. Mito Yahy writes in the curious okay, okay. We'll Facebook people, we'll Facebook people will get to all of your uh spins all questions. Wait, are we we're around next week, right? Am I gone next week?
+
+[56:45] No. I'm flying back again from Denver next week on Tuesday. Man. So in two weeks, we will we will get we will get all of your spinzall related questions. Facebook them all in.
+
+[56:58] We'll hook you up with more spins all stuff, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[57:24] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[57:52] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. With Bob's Red Mill, you're not just getting quality, you're getting flavor-packed, healthy food that tastes great. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to learn more and use the code Cooking Issues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of KitKu's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 directly 1245 from Bernard's Pizzeria and Bush Week. Nothing gets you going like hearing your well, you know. Oh, sorry, that was unexpectedly loud. People come to, you know, expect the crazy intro. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:52] How are you doing, Stas? Good. So uh Nastasia, you remember a couple weeks ago, uh, Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? Good, how are you?
+
+[0:58] Doing well. So you remember a couple of weeks ago we saw Cool Keith? Yeah. Nastasia during which what? Yeah, we saw Cool Keith in concert at the Blue Note.
+
+[1:05] Oh my god. 15 bucks. Great greatest deal ever. Is he doing Dr. Octagon stuff?
+
+[1:10] He did, you know, he has a new Dr. Octagon album coming out. But uh he's performing at the Brooklyn Bowl in sometime in April with Dr. Octagon. So Dan the Automator and um uh Hubert and all that.
+
+[1:22] But he did one or two old octagon songs, like he did Blue Flowers and uh a couple other stuff. But Nastasia honed in especially on Cool Keith's Mike, his his mic uh physical mic stylings, and was doing the cool keith as she was talking during the promo on the intro. We want you to describe that in a family-friendly way. I can't. I can't.
+
+[1:43] I can't. Especially because I don't have one. This is the real letdown. Let's just let it just stay there. So, like in Cool Keith has a very specific, let's call it a microphone pump that he likes to do.
+
+[1:57] Yes. That uh yeah, that Nastasia was doing for uh during the simulating something? Yes. Perhaps, yes. I see.
+
+[2:03] Yeah. Uh but it it works in concert though, right? Yeah. Because it's with the with the beat. Yeah, it's good.
+
+[2:10] So uh Dave informed me that he had a nasty train ride. So you wanna you want to talk about that? Uh it was just like, you know, the usual delays and then like just all the uh every like possible annoyance that you could expect to run into, like screaming baby, guy playing Sultans of Swing for like nine minutes, like just torture, complete torture. Wait, uh loud? Well the dire straits on?
+
+[2:32] Like playing uh with an acoustic guitar and saying Is he singing? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Was he as good as Knoppler? Like my nightmare.
+
+[2:44] Did he uh are you you're wait, do we already go through this? You're not a Knopfler fan, you're anti Knopfler? Anti Knopfler. All right. Uh okay.
+
+[2:52] Uh you might enjoy this. On the way in, I saw this guy. Again, I was also delayed. I mean, I'm always chronically late anyway, but more delayed than normal. The subways are worse than normal, right, Stas?
+
+[3:03] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's worse than normal. Uh did I tell you uh the the thing I came up with because the F train has been so messed up recently that I was like, the MTA is officially changing it to the F U train just to be more accurate. Because it's just nothing works.
+
+[3:15] Yeah. But anyway, so I saw this guy and he was staring right into his phone, and I was like, Yeah, get your face out of your phone. And then right after I thought that he stepped directly in dog poop. But didn't even look up. Did he f must have felt the squish.
+
+[3:29] Yeah. But he didn't look up, and so he left that boot print of poop like all the way down the sidewalk. New York. New York. So uh this is the second week that oh, by the way, calling your questions two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight.
+
+[3:41] That's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. So uh my son Booker uh went in for his second training session at uh Pasta Flyer. How'd that go, Nastasi? Well, yeah, I like him there. Yeah.
+
+[3:52] All right, so here's the interesting thing, and uh, you know, those of you out there who you know work for a living will appreciate this. So so Booker, right? You know, my son Booker, he's you know on the on the spectrum, right? Being a team player. So like we're we're walking into uh thing, I'm like, hey, Booker, listen, in a restaurant, everything is your responsibility.
+
+[4:16] He's like, what? What? What is it? I was like, if you look, if the table is messy, because this is exactly the opposite of the way he works at home. He's like, not my problem.
+
+[4:24] Even if it is his problem, he's like, not my problem, right? But I'm like, everything in the restaurant is everybody's problem. I don't know whether he understood that. Do you think he did? You think I soaked in?
+
+[4:32] I think the biggest breakthrough was when you were supposed to show up at five, and he got his apron off, his hat off and was waiting for you by the door, and you were late. And at like 5.05, I went down to the door and I was like, Booker, you could be making money right now if you put your hat and your apron on until your dad gets here. And he was like, All right. Yeah, well, I have to say, although I am chronically late, I will say I got Booker there early because I was like, Booker, you need to be dressed and clocked in, ready to work on time, no effing about. Yeah, right?
+
+[5:03] That's true. Yeah, yeah, do as I say, not as I do, right? Hey, what no? Look, I'm not late for a shift. This is what do you call this?
+
+[5:12] Okay, that's a good point. Yeah. Doo, hey, well, we're not getting paid. Boom! Boom!
+
+[5:18] We are kind of with the thing. Now, but I wasn't late for that. Anyway, so uh also I know I'm super I'm super late to the game here, but I've been really getting into uh emoji rebuses. You ever do emoji rebuses? No.
+
+[5:32] Dave? What was that second word? I don't know what that is. Rebus. You don't know a Rebus?
+
+[5:36] Rhein's prebus? What? Rhine's Rebus. Uh it would be a hard Rebus to make. It'll be hard to make a Rhine's Prebus Rebus.
+
+[5:42] But uh a no, a Rebus is when you use pictures and spell things out. I'll give you an example. Ugh, I don't like that. So anyway, so you know, look, we may or may not be having a new bar. It may or may not open in spring of this year.
+
+[5:54] Anyway, so yeah, yeah, right. But I'm not allowed to talk anything about it. Anyway, so when we took possession of the space, the very, very first thing I did was uh the bathroom had a giant the ADA compliant bathroom had a giant sign across it that just said handicapped. I was like, what the hell? Rip that right off, right?
+
+[6:13] It's so unwelcoming. It might have even been worse than that. But anyway, I ripped that right up. But this there's one sign that we can't take off because it's too hilarious to us. On the control panel for the music system, it says, uh managers only, don't touch.
+
+[6:27] And then it says, because here's the thing don't write threatening, don't write threatening signs for your employees. It's just a bad idea, right? Like a warning sign is different because that's meant to help your employee, right? But like a threatening sign is just a crappy thing to do. What do you think, Dave?
+
+[6:40] Crappy, right? I agree. It's crappy. It's a crappy attitude, this adversarial relationship to set with your team. That's just unnecessary.
+
+[6:47] But if you are going to be a dumbass and write a uh a threatening sign, please get your grammar in order. Because it said, you will be fire. No D. You will be fire. So we all we all like occasionally will one around and whenever anyone does something wrong, we'll say, You will become fire.
+
+[7:09] Yeah, I'm fire every day when I come into work. I'm fire. So like that was my first of the emoji rebuses. It was the sheep, which is you, right? And then quail, the whale emoji, and then the the bumblebee, and then the fire.
+
+[7:21] But my uh a friend of mine just had a this is my this is no one's gotten this one yet. I sent this one out, no one's picked it up yet. So my friend just had a baby. He's a metalhead, right? So there's a lot of connections here.
+
+[7:31] Baby's name is Ozzie, right? So obviously, so here's what I sent. I sent a dead bat. No, I sent uh that's a great one. I said I sent the I emoji, right?
+
+[7:42] And then believe it or not, I believe there's a there's a yam emoji, a half of like a yam, yeah. A yam, right? And then the Iranian flag, and then the dancing men. So if you look at it real quick, if you read and get it looking, I am Iron Man. Cause you name your kid Ozzie, how metal is that?
+
+[8:01] But my wife's never gonna get it because A, she doesn't know really who Ozzie Osborne is, B would never connect it to Black Sabbath, C would never connect Black Sabbath to Iron Man. Because she's the one sending the information to my friend. She'll never get it. She'll never get it. Uh let's get to some questions.
+
+[8:16] Yeah, sure, call her. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh that Luna check Judy from Alden again. Hey, how you doing? I'm I'm interested.
+
+[8:28] Uh it's funny that you mention, you know, the people who have to work for a living. Right. Because uh, I don't want to air out my furry laundry, but this medical leaf's absence worthy kind of depression. And as of a few weeks ago, I literally don't even have a job. So uh I have a couple of questions for you.
+
+[8:53] All right. I do not think you know the answer to the first question, but I think maybe the Harold McGee might know. Have you ever heard of Oshwagonda? Osh Oshwagonda? Yeah.
+
+[9:10] I I came across it in uh a local Indian supermarket. No, what is it? Like is there an English translation for it? Uh it's it's what Western cults like to call ayahuasca. Oh yes, sure.
+
+[9:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Uh you can use it as a rennet to make cheese. Oh and so that's how they get it into the country as not as a narcotic thing? Well well there's a very roundabout way.
+
+[9:46] Like it is used as a new age health thing and that's how it's marketed. But I I like to go off the deep end and research. So you I I don't think you would know how to make cheese from this stuff, right? No. But uh if it's like the stuff from you're talking about the stuff that's typically used in South America by like the Yanomamis and whatnot as a as a I have no idea.
+
+[10:12] Yeah. Like you know the only thing I think of when I think of cheese is paneer when we're talking about Indians. Right. So I don't know this product but look any time you're making cheese you're relying on one of several reactions. You're relying on um typically like an enzymatic reaction that causes um the you know the uh uh the casein to clot together, an acid reaction that's that's also uh shifting the pH condition and causing the the you know the um clots to form.
+
+[10:43] Uh I'm not exactly sure what it is in plant-based things like thistle that cause the clotting. I don't know. So like classic like European uh plant-based rennets are like cartoon and thistle related. I don't know what the clotting agent is them or the mechanism is is in them. So you're not you're trying to make cheese, you're not trying to have a hallucinogenic experience.
+
+[11:06] Um I I I alright. Well, uh I called you uh a couple of years ago, I told you, hey, I don't want to have the same career path as uh Christina Tozy, but uh I just heard 35 last Friday, and it seems like about time for me to write the great American novel, which I've always been designed to do. Well, a ton do a lot of research. Nastasia, look up ayahuasca is the stuff that I'm thinking of, right? Yeah.
+
+[11:37] So uh Yeah, yeah, but but people do not make it the right way and they do not drink it the right way. Which is well, I'm heard it's why people get I I've heard it's incredibly horrifying experience if you do it wrong. Yeah. Uh yeah, there's something something going on uh on on your end. So uh but do you have a question I do have the answer for or or uh Hello?
+
+[12:04] Did we lose her? Did we lose her? Hmm. She's hello, hey, how you doing? So listen, do you like uh I hope you I hope you're you know get yourself straight and feel better.
+
+[12:20] Here's let me tell you about as a 40. What am I about to be, Nastasia? 40. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have a real question.
+
+[12:26] Oh, okay. What do you what do you got for me? So uh the Friday before I tried to make pizza for the first time. Right? Pizza you said, right?
+
+[12:34] Uh based on Nancy Silverton. Right. Good person. I I tried to make two pizzas. The first one, I it looked pretty good until I caused a massive grease fire in my electric oven.
+
+[12:50] Right. Yeah. That happens. And then I just dropped it on the floor. Wait, you you oh you dropped it on the floor as a result of the grease fire?
+
+[12:57] What? As a result of the grease fire, you dropped it on the floor, or these were unrelated incidents. I don't know. I I think uh any first pizza will will suffer a terrible fate anyway. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:09] All right, that's fair. Then my with my second pizza, it turned out into like a deconstructed pizza. So I was hoping that you would tell me that I could practice by baking blanks. Yes, you can make blank pizzas, and in fact, there are pizzeria that do this almost exclusively. So p pizzeria's pizzerias that don't have like real pizza ovens will often do uh what I call like a griddled pizza, will where they'll they'll do the initial uh blank bake even in a pan and then uh just set it, pull it out, top it, and then throw it in an oven or under under a uh broiler or a salamander to finish off.
+
+[13:48] I'm not a huge fan of that technique, but that's the way I do it in the summertime when it's too hot to fire up the oven. Um it's it's a lot faster to do the bottom side cook off on a griddle or pan and do the top side cook off on uh uh under a broiler because you know your oven's only on for minutes at a time instead of for the hours it takes to get up to pizza temperature. But I don't think the results are as good as like a traditional um pizza would get. But another uh uh tip I will give you, and this one is uh a winner. Real pizza people disdain this, but this is the easiest way for a uh a beginner who's having trouble, especially if you're using a high hydration dough.
+
+[14:25] So a lot of people like using high hydration doughs this these days. Um they stick a lot, and so the a lot of people at the beginning will put too much crap onto their peels in order to make sure the pizza comes off and on. That stuff scorches and leaves an unpleasant texture on the bottom, unless you happen to like that, but most people don't, right size, you don't like that stuff too. Uh but a way around this is to get uh baking paper, so like Reynolds uh baking paper. Um it's not that cheap.
+
+[14:51] Then lay the dough directly parchment paper? Yeah, but yeah, parchment, make sure it's the baking kind, not wax paper, but the parchment paper that's meant for baking. Oh yeah, yeah, no, yeah, they know the difference. Yeah, and then you you stretch out the the dough directly onto the the paper, like on your peel. And then here's the trick take scissors or like a uh a knife and cut around the paper so that the paper doesn't extend past your uh dough more than about uh you know half an inch or so because any large pieces will will catch on fire, ignite.
+
+[15:24] But if they're in between the dough and the pizza, you'll be fine. Then you throw it onto your stone or whatever else you're cooking on, and as the pizza bakes, it will a hundred percent of the time separate from the paper. And in fact, um a good way to test like you you you want to test how the thing is doing, you can kind of lift it up and yank the paper out in but in the midway between uh the bake if you want as it as an indicator, but that's the way, and that's also the way if you're doing three, four, five, six pizzas and you're setting them all up, and you know, you're and you're not at a at a uh point in your pizza making yet where you can reliably set up five doughs, pick them up and put them in the oven properly. You can reliably, even like you know, you know, a long time in advance, like half hour uh in advance, lay out five pizzas onto parchment paper and get them into the oven and never have a problem. Oh I I wish I had a carrot space also by my kitchen is as far away as possible from any windows.
+
+[16:27] Yeah. So the other thing screwed. The other trick the other trick uh I would do for uh for for limited counter space is uh get a bunch of depending on your size oven. If you have limited counter space, usually your kitchen can't accommodate full sheet pans, even if your oven can. But like uh b basically just a 90 90 degree stack of uh half sheet pans.
+
+[16:49] So one pan, lay it down, next pan at 90 degrees, lay it down, and a stack of six pans is still only uh you know, like s like uh it's less than six inches high. It's less than an inch per pan, I think. So somewhere in that range. And so you can get a fairly dense stacking of uh of your stuff, and they're not that heavy, so you can swap in between versus kind of big pants. I mean, I'm lucky the very first thing I installed in my kitchen was a um was uh uh a rack, like a like a pan rack, because it doubles the amount of space you have when you're cooking more than doubles, because I can throw sheet pans into my rack, whether they're cooked or uncooked, your stuff just comes in and out of the oven.
+
+[17:28] But I don't know, the rest of the world hasn't caught on to that yet. But I'm just not quite at the stage of uh having building my ideal kitchen at all yet. But uh thank you very much, and maybe try to figure out the ashwaganda question for me. All right, now I'm supposed to talk to Harold soon. I'll get I'll give him a call.
+
+[17:44] And uh I hope you're of course. Yeah, I hope you're doing better. And 35 35 is nothing to worry about. I got 12 years, 12, 13 years on you. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:55] I'm very glad. Yeah. Alrighty, have a good one. All righty. All right.
+
+[17:59] Uh I think we need to take a break. Take a break and we'll be right back with more cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. We have a question from a listener about Bob's whole wheat flour. Terry wants to know at what point in the production process do white flour and whole wheat flour become different products.
+
+[18:29] Well, Terry, that entirely depends on the method being used to make the flour. So there's two basic ways that this can happen. You have single stream milling, where you take your flour and you like create whole, like whole wheat, let's say flour out of wheat, and it never gets separated. But uh a lot of modern techniques use what's called multi-stream milling. And so what happens is everything is turned into white flour and all of the separate fractions of the flour, and then is later combined back to make a whole grain product.
+
+[18:55] So everything depends on the actual technology being used. Do you have a question about a Bob's Red Mill ingredient? If so, tweet it to us at heritage underscore radio. And if you want to experiment with whole wheat flour, go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order.
+
+[19:18] And we're back. It's really still as disconcerting to hear ourselves during the break. But I don't listen. I don't know why you listen. I don't know, in case uh in case I'm like, well, who's that is?
+
+[19:27] Just mentally prepare yourself for the next question. All right, guys. Collar, you're on the air. Hey. So I work at an Asian fusion restaurant, and we use uh uh katsubushi for our dashi and our ramen broth.
+
+[19:40] Yeah. Uh but the question is is Can I do that same technique for fruit? What do you mean? What do you mean? Like uh basically like is there a way to petrify fruit to make it into shavings to do a more uh uh like a base broth or something like that.
+
+[19:58] All right, so for those that's cocktails, basically. I'm sure most of our crew knows katsu bushi, but katsobushi are these uh I guess it's bonito uh like uh pieces that are steamed and like uh inoculated and dried and s and uh fired like alternately, and they they age them until they and you know repeatedly treat them until when you click them together they sound like wood, and then they're shaved traditionally uh, you know, over what amounts to a very fancy uh mandolin into the thin shavings that we buy as bonito flakes to make uh dashi. Um Dave Chang and his crew uh done a lot of work doing the inoculation and curing to pork uh to make pork katsubushi. Um the the issue is that I um I don't think you're gonna get I mean look, could you make a dried fruit flake that you then made a broth out of? Sure.
+
+[20:56] It's gonna, but you you know, I think you probably have a a fruit soup. The the the thing is is that you'd need to get, you know, part of it is a the the you know the kind of meaty substrate, um, and that's one of the meatier fishes too. But you the second is the protein levels, right? So it's gonna be a different kind of flavor when you're doing a sugar pectin carbohydrate-rich substrate as opposed to a protein-rich substrate, because part of the complex flavor of the katsubuchi is um the kind of amino acid breakdown. Like that's where like a lot of that kind of umami punch is coming from, is is like the long process breaks and stable breaks down the proteins, uh, and then also dries it so it's petrified and and stabilized.
+
+[21:46] But I think you're not gonna get a similar profile. But that doesn't mean that you can't get like an an interesting profile, you know. I mean, there's uh, but yeah, as far as that, uh you need some sort of protein base. So I mean I mean, is there like a like if I added like absorbic acid to the salt, or is there like if I added more pectin to keep the fruit structural structural while it was aging? Yeah, no, it's I think the your basic substrate is so different that I don't think I mean like you'd have to find a high protein, like I'm like there might be some vegetables that you could do this with.
+
+[22:23] Like I'm sure you could do a katsu, uh, you know, some sort of variant with uh soy blocks, for instance, or tempeh blocks or um, you know, something like this, something that's high in protein. But I'm struggling to think of a fruit that would get the same flavor to it. Now, if you just want to make sure that the stuff doesn't break apart, there's plenty of fruit that does or you know, veg and fruit that won't break apart in the soup, something that can be strained out uh afterwards, you know, and so for for that, most dried fruit, frankly, won't, you know, it'll rehydrate somewhat. And I guess you could do some stuff to kind of prevent that re-hydration, like uh like toasting it once it's um once it's uh you know dried, you might be able to prevent some rehydration, but um, you know, I don't think you're ever gonna get I mean you could get some weird funky flavors, like for instance, coconut aminos, right? So coconut aminos, I don't know how they're made, but you get some very meaty flavors out of coconut in the product coconut aminos.
+
+[23:23] I don't know what the aging process is. I think it's more akin to soy sauce. So there's like some sort of liquid coconut substrate that they then age and ferment to make coconut aminos. But you might look at something like I would think you might have good results with something like coconut, something that can shave easily and clearly because they make this thing called coconut aminos, something that would cause that, but it's again more akin to the soy sauce fla uh taste and not that kind of like like fish broth base that Katsu Bushi has. I frankly I don't even know if I have ever had Dave's pork uh katsuabushi.
+
+[24:01] He liked it, but I even think he said it didn't taste exactly like katsubuchi, it was a different broth. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I don't know. Does anyone in the chat room have anything, Dave?
+
+[24:10] Maybe they'll weigh in. Uh keep an eye out. Yeah, we'll keep an eye out. I'll think about it more. But there's gotta be, you know, I'll try to do if you send a question into cooking issues, just so I don't remember.
+
+[24:20] I'll try to do uh uh, you know, figure out whether anyone's worked on you interested in fruit specifically or just a vegetarian katsu bushi variant. I was wanting to do it more for like cocktail bases. Um so I mean I knew that like water was gonna be one of my major issues. Uh and keeping keeping the fruit from basically just crumbling during the process. But I mean, if I wanted to try like blueberries, I would have to find something to maybe like boost its structural while it was also breaking down at the same time.
+
+[25:06] Okay, now now I get you. Yeah, I mean like you could just instead of keeping the structure, you could probably just uh set the stuff into a gel that then won't reverse. Like uh I mean depends on how hot it needs to go. So you can do I mean the way that you make agar is you set blocks and then you repeatedly uh let it um kind of freeze thaw the liquid kind of drains out and you're left with agar, so you could probably like do gel and strips or agar strips and then let those age in block format and that might work for you. You know, something like that.
+
+[25:38] I thought you were trying to actually mimic like a like a like a soup with it, which is a different kind of well I mean I mean I guess like theoretically, yes, because I would want to try to use like whatever kind of funky flavors I could pull out of the fruits from it being aged to make like a a syrup or a tincture or something like that. Right. Yeah, and I'm trying to think of those some aged some aged fruits that uh I mean that you do other than pickling. I have to think about it more. Maybe someone in the chat room has some ideas.
+
+[26:10] I'll try to give it some more some more thought as to kind of what the an what the historical antecedents are. Alright. Cool. Uh thank you. All right, thank you.
+
+[26:19] You want to uh uh take another call? Uh sure. Caller, you're on the air. Oh, hey, uh, this is West coming from the Northwest. How are you doing?
+
+[26:28] I like that. West from the Northwest. It's got a good ring. There you are. You can never move.
+
+[26:29] Hey, oh. I want to build an outdoor rotisserie. Um, and it might just be over like some coal, or it might be over at Weber Grow, but I was curious if you have any experience with that and how to make it not suck. Uh invariably, if you use the rotisserie elements that you buy in uh big box stores, it's gonna suck. And I'll tell you why.
+
+[27:00] Well, it flops, it flops, like it's irregular. You already know the answer, my friend. That's the thing. They flop. And and there's no one, there's no one on God's green earth who's good enough at balancing any reasonable size uh piece of meat such that uh they're not gonna have the flop with those kind of rotisserie motors.
+
+[27:20] But the good news is there are motors that are uh quite good, right? So you want a you want a motor that basically has no uh backlash to it. Uh and so uh the the best rotisserie one I ever built, I built with an old uh like an actual like gear motor, like a really nice gear motor that was running at I forget what the magic rotisserie number is. It's somewhere in the area of like 4.5 uh RPM, right around there, I think. Uh I forget because I haven't built one in a long time.
+
+[27:53] But um, yeah, the issue with that is keeping it keeping it relatively cool, right? So you can chain drive them. Uh I think I would, yeah. Yeah. Another good way is uh did uh Mark like that uh that rotisserie unit he got Nastasi?
+
+[28:09] Where was that one from? Was that Turkish or Greek the one with the little spits? Oh yeah, you like that. That was Italian. That was Italian so it had like a whole line of mini spits so it basically did you know those mini spits that are you know they're only maybe like uh like a foot and a half long and they're made of a blade of uh they're a like a blade and you shove the end of the blade into like a spinning what amounts to a screw and then it just keeps spinning and then you lift it out and it spins on its own uh axis in the front does this make any sense to you know I'm talking about if you look up like Italian but that's miniature you're looking for a larger spit right I assume you're looking for a larger spit.
+
+[28:43] Yeah like I want to do chickens and stuff. Yeah so just ignore those motors that they sell um you know if you have any fabrication skills you can attach it to your to your own bracket. I'm trying to remember what I I used to use these uh Bowdoin motors which was I think Bodine was the brand but they were real pricey but you could buy them used and they had zero backlash you know what I mean and it's like zero. So like it was just like you just completely just you know driving it 100% of the time. Another way you could do it is you could do uh a chain you know a chain drive for uh and then that'll also take up uh because it's your motor is spinning more than your object is so if your motor is spinning a lot more than your object is you're reducing the effective backlash on it because uh you know because they're probably accepting the same amount of angular backlash in the um in the in the um output shaft regardless of uh its RPM so if you say back yeah, like give essentially like a uh amount of flop.
+
+[29:50] Right, amount of flop. Right. So the the fact of the matter is is that is that any motor, right, that has tolerances, typically, like if you like uh if you've ever used a machine tool, right? You're when you're threading something forward, uh you're pushing on it, and then even the smallest, you know, uh increase always pushes it forward. But then as you back off, it takes a little bit of time for the thread to re-engage, go in the other direction.
+
+[30:17] So that's the play, right? The play. Yeah, and that's what's causing the flop. And the flops your enemy because it just gets worse and worse because then meat not being rigid, right? The more it's flopping during the during the process, and we showed it.
+
+[30:32] The more hey, the more it will uh kind of tear itself to pieces and get it'll get crappier and crappier as you spin. Now, a lot of this also is just designing uh good, and I don't mind them actually, the square things that hold on the uh the square things that that you know go over your rotisserie rods to hold the meat on. I don't mind that. And but you know what? The ultimate thing is honestly, like, you know, you you want to cook, right?
+
+[30:59] Do you want to spend your whole freaking life balancing a freaking pig on a stick? No, you want the thing to spin the freaking pig regardless of how well you balanced it. Like an ideal rotisserie, you shouldn't have to balance that thing at all. It shouldn't care. You know what I mean?
+
+[31:15] Like, like why doesn't anyone make a decent freaking motor for this? So you I would buy an oversized motor, one and what you want to want to look at is the number of um the number of uh inch inch pounds uh or foot pounds that it can do, and that's gonna let you know how off center your load can be and still have it effectively drive it, right? So you know, like uh, well, you can look it up, but like that, like the amount of torque that it can provide is gonna provide, uh, it's gonna tell you kind of how effectively it can spin it. But the like I say, the way a lot of people do this is they buy weeny teeny motors and then they gear them with these crappy gearboxes that have a lot of play in it, and then you end up with crappy rotisserie. Here's the other thing about crappy rotisserie with the flop.
+
+[31:55] Even if it didn't ruin your meat, you always have one section of the meat that's in your fire for less amount of time. Because as it flops, it just goes. And that part where it's going as it's spinning around is a blonder piece of meat. Who the hell wants blonde meat? No one.
+
+[32:10] Nobody. Nobody. All right. Anyway, let us know what motor is at, tweet us back and let us know what what uh what happens. Hey, am I allowed to ask an unrelated question?
+
+[32:20] It's a quick one, which is just kind of bugging me for a while, which is you can ask, but Nastasia will hate you. That is true. All right, go ahead. Okay, well, all right, I'm just pondering this. Why is mayonnaise so delicious?
+
+[32:29] Like it's more delicious than the sum of its part. Is it because the oil gets dispersed by the emulsion and it spreads out over your taste buds? Well, it's it's kind of an interesting question. I mean, first of all, you and I clearly believe mayonnaise is delicious, but there are people who do not like mayonnaise. Jimmy Fellard.
+
+[32:47] Revolting. Uh wrong. Wrong. Anyway, but like the point is that mayonnaise it is delicious, and it's because you've solidified the oil. I'm pretty sure it's just the fact that you've solidified oil into, you know, along with uh vinegar and salt, you've solidified this oil into something that you can then uh spread.
+
+[33:06] So if you like drizzling oil over things, how can you not like mayonnaise? You know what I mean? It's just like a easier to apply form of that. And first of all, you don't like mayonnaise? Every salad dressing is made with mayonnaise.
+
+[33:19] Do you not like salad dressing, Dave? You're telling me that like a vinegar and oil, salad dressing. You only drink vinegar and oil, salad dressing, he's like, hey, I take this Italian thing seriously. I owe but it's not even Italian, that Italian dressing. Don't even do it, don't give me that stuff.
+
+[33:32] Why you gotta make it about my my ethnicity? Because I always gotta go there. I always gotta go there. But like, look, you're telling me you don't like any creamy dressings, Dave? No, I I don't like completely hate mayonnaise.
+
+[33:42] I just think when overdone, it is disgusting. What does that mean, overdone? Do you eat a BLT without mayonnaise? Um I've I've been known to, yeah. Heathen!
+
+[33:52] BLT requires mayonnaise! Do you eat a turkey sandwich without mayonnaise? Uh I like mustard. What? Yeah.
+
+[34:00] I put mustard on as well. You know why? Mustard is delicious. But mayonnaise is what you need for the sandwich. You don't need both.
+
+[34:07] Incorrect. Just, you know, minimalistic. Minimalistic. Minimalistic. Look, turkey, uh a normally American cooked turkey has which predominant characteristic?
+
+[34:18] What comes to mind first? Uh dryness. Yes. Bing! And what is the miracle condiment that fixes dryness, everybody?
+
+[34:27] Mustard. Mayonnaise! Mayonnaise. Mustard does not fix dryness. Mustard fix a lack fixes a lack of piquancy.
+
+[34:35] Or actually, horseradish. That would be really good. Oh, now you got an orange radish. I also like horse radish. Oh, wait.
+
+[34:41] If I can't quote ludicrous, what world do we live in? I'm pretty sure he used that. Or maybe I wanted him to use that and he didn't use that rhyme. Maybe that was the only rhyme he didn't use. Anyway, I don't know.
+
+[34:53] Mayonnaise is, you know. Caller, sorry you had to come between us like this. Yeah. Sorry, yeah, sorry. Anyway, all right.
+
+[35:00] You know, we'll think more about it. If anyone, if anyone can explain to me any reasonable reason other than they they they have a mental issue with the fact that it's the texture and/or the what they think the theoretical, well, well not theory, the actual ingredients of mayonnaise are. If anyone can actually argue mayonnaise on a flavorslash function point, like I'm I'm here for it. I bring it on. Anyway.
+
+[35:14] Got time for one more. Uh wait, so Quiet Michael wrote in from Toronto. In regards to meat, does crust formation uh inhibit heat penetration? Uh all right, Michael. It's a it's a multifaceted question here because um as you heat the meat as you form a crust, right?
+
+[35:37] It loses water. As it loses water, it does in fact uh create have heat penetrate less quickly, right? Because the water is a better conductor of uh heat than the dry meat product. However, uh it can also get to a much higher temperature, and therefore uh it can it can you know get up to the temperature of the fry oil or up to the temperature of your oven and therefore can push uh you know can be a higher temperature. So I don't know where the answer is.
+
+[36:02] I used to know because I had to research this uh for my book, which I was supposed to write a year, you know, over a year ago. I'm restarting again with the writing. So uh Nastasia, don't get me started. I met with my publisher yesterday. You know, Nast Nastasia likes to pester me.
+
+[36:19] Um task. Do I have time for a quick one or no? No. Uh how quick? Like you have to do it in 30 seconds.
+
+[36:27] 30 seconds. Well, I have a question from uh Devin uh in Seattle about uh juice and FDA, which I guess I'll have to get to next because it's not uh you know, not that I can't do I can't do any of this. But you are gonna start with these next week, right, David? No, next week we have a guest. We have Jim Leahy.
+
+[36:45] No, I thought No after that is the next one. Oh, so we have guests in next two weeks. Jim When he's coming in about bread. No, about whatever he wants to talk about. Well, what do you what are people gonna ask him about?
+
+[36:54] The price of freaking eggs? Jim Leahy, master bread baker, is gonna be here next week. And the and uh and who do we have the week after that? Oh, Leahy's coming in. Amazing.
+
+[37:04] Remember, if if anyone has a problem with family shows, it's gonna be Leahy. So, like right. It's always good to have a solid master baker on the air with us. Exactly. Exactly.
+
+[37:13] Family program. Remember, he was the only guy that we couldn't stop from cursing on the radio. Hey, we're just gonna have to go with it. And they're gonna have to. How fast are you on the bleeps, Dave?
+
+[37:22] It is the internet, so it's okay. It's a family show. Well, allegedly. What? Anyway, I had lots of questions here I didn't get to.
+
+[37:33] More we'll get we'll get to them along with all your bread questions next week with Jim Leahy on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[38:02] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[38:29] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. With Bob's Red Mill, you're not just getting quality, you're getting flavor-packed, healthy food that tastes great. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to learn more and use the code Cooking Issues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Jordan as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? What? Good.
+
+[0:44] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Got Dave in the booth? Good. Good.
+
+[0:49] We got longtime friend as our guest. You're gonna want to call in all of your uh Amora Margo or Amori uh what do you call Amore? Don't insult the man. All of your drink related, all of your Alton Brown related, all of your, I don't know, any kind of like if you like very long stirring spoons, you're gonna want to call in your long stirring spoon questions to Southern with us in the uh in the station. Hey buddy, happy to see you.
+
+[1:14] Yeah, good to see you. And uh if you also have a show on the Heritage Radio Network, you want to tell the people about that? Absolutely. We are uh the speakeasy. Damon Bolti and I air every Wednesday at 2 p.m.
+
+[1:24] Uh and of course, podcasts on all platforms are at it for that. Yeah. So those of you uh who have you know listened to the show for a long time know that Damon Bolte is a twin. He's one of the creepy. Yeah, he's one of the culinary slash bar twins, one of the many New York identical twins, by the way.
+
+[1:40] Identical, yeah. Yeah, not one of these like, you know, fraternal twins. Oh, there are differences. Oh, yeah. So what are the differences between the bolties?
+
+[1:48] I actually don't know. I just assume. There you go. Listen, the new, you know. The new facial recognition iPhone.
+
+[1:53] Yeah. Damon can open his brother's phone. Oh, that awesome. So that's like a that's a that's a recipe for F U right there. Oh, yeah, man.
+
+[2:00] Are identical twins' fingerprints the same as well or are they different? I have no idea. I just know it's creepy. It is it is some it is some creepy say to some creepy piss. You see this thing about space the other day where they had an identical twin, one and spent a long time in space, and they came back and they're like, interesting news.
+
+[2:14] Your genes change when you've been up in space for a long time. The guy's in space had a smile on his face, like, uh, buddy, wipe that smile off your face. You know what that means? You just got you just got mutated, buddy. Right.
+
+[2:25] It's like so much radiation up there in space. Yeah. Yeah, I did read that actually. Pretty crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.
+
+[2:30] So uh according to the internet, identical twins do not have the same fingerprints. Man, the internet's fast on this stuff. Yeah. Dave, Dave can type fast. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:38] Dave and the boots. Dave, this Dave, the like Dave here in this side of the uh of the microphone, has uh like marshmallow thumbs, and so I cannot type quickly on a phone. Dave, I just wrote my entire book on an iPhone. You're a liar, who's gonna be. I'm crediting the iPhone in my book as as in to say written on iPhone 7.
+
+[2:58] Is it one long run on sentence? The iPhone really needs some recognition. Yeah, there's I'm trying to help him out. Yeah. So I was thinking of getting uh an iPad actually to write that because so I can carry it around with me.
+
+[3:08] Because uh I was like, oh, you know, you can use that stylist, but it's not a mouse. I'm sorry. Like someone my age wants a mouse. We just want a mouse. Is that what you want?
+
+[3:17] I want a mouse. What do you mean your age? I'm older than you. So don't you want a mouse? Your house.
+
+[3:21] You're a tech guy. People do people know I'm not a tech guy. I I I I own I own multiple. I mean you hang out with people who are tech people. I own multiple businesses.
+
+[3:28] I've got a radio show. I just wrote a book and I this is my only computing device, my phone. This is it. You're saying you wrote that because you don't own a word processor? Correct.
+
+[3:36] Your other word processor is a brother word. This checks out. He never answers my emails. Yeah, who does though, Dave? Oh!
+
+[3:44] Yeah. So anyway, call in your Southern and/or other cooking-related questions to 718-4972128. Booker wants me to say that. Hold up, hold up longer. 7184972128.
+
+[3:57] And also, Nastasia, Nastasia Lopez led everyone to believe that Jim Leahy, not that you're a consolation guest, Southern, but that Jim Leahy, the bread guy, was gonna be on this week. In fact, street bakery. In fact, Nastasia, that is incorrect. But it is what? Next week.
+
+[4:14] Next week. There we go. All right. So we're gonna say too bad I was ready for some deep master baking today. Um I was gonna say that Booker wants me to say that it's no longer take your child to work life because he has a job.
+
+[4:28] Yeah, he's actually, this is the first time he's working at Costa Flyer without me there. Without without Nastasia there. So safe to say. He's 16, man. He's 16.
+
+[4:39] Yeah, man, kids grow up fast. I started when I was 14 working. Yeah, but you know, that was when we were it was a different time, Dave. Yeah. That hasn't changed.
+
+[4:47] You can still work when you're 14. Can you? Yeah, in Pennsylvania anyway. I don't know about here. Pennsylvania.
+
+[4:53] He's like in Western Pennsylvania. My real forward thinking over there. In western Pennsylvania you can, but only if you're working underground in the mines. All right, so uh so what do you got for us? What's going on, Southern?
+
+[5:03] I I was just swinging by to say hello. Now you're I got nothing. Now I'm on the spot. You got nothing? Well, I mean I don't I don't have nothing.
+
+[5:09] What do you have what do you have going on? What's going on in the bar world? Um I just pulled the wool over a shitload of people's eyes and on my uh Instagram. My April fooled the hell out of them. What do you do?
+
+[5:19] I just posted a picture of a bunch of fresh bottles of juice and a shaker, and I said, uh, we're we're uh we're changing some programs. I never said the words juice, I never said the words uh shaker, but I in my caption I just said program's changing over here. We're really excited to come see us, blah blah blah. And just an absolute crap ton of responses. So for those of you that don't know, like Southern Did you open that?
+
+[5:41] But did that did you open that? Seven years ago, uh March 21st. We just turned seven years old at Amori Margo. Right. And uh the the shtick, for those of you that don't you need to go, but it it's it's uh it's it's small, so it fills up quickly, right?
+
+[5:52] Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, but uh tell them tell them the basis of the program. So at Amori Margo, which means love and bitters uh in Italian, um or sorry rather rather in Spanish, which is goofy because most of the stuff on my bar is Italian. Um we only serve uh stirred bitter cocktails using lots of amaro and tincture bitters. I have probably have the largest selection anywhere in the world of tincture and potable bitters in a tiny bar that's 240 square feet.
+
+[6:16] And we for seven years have only stirred cocktails. Um not only have you only stirred cocktails, but no juice. No juice, yeah, exactly. That's part of the program, right? So uh we use uh uh only cane syrup, and we only use that in old fashions.
+
+[6:29] Other than that, we have no sugar, we don't use any syrups or juices, we don't use uh anything non-alcoholic, really. The only non-alcoholic ingredient on the entire bar is water and that aforementioned syrup. So it's all spiritus spirit forward drinks. So I posted this photo of a bunch of juice on the bar, and people just went apeshit. Well, I think like people are like, you know, why would you go against your shtick after all these, you know, exactly?
+
+[6:52] There's plenty of there's plenty of places I could go if I want juice. If I want a bee's knees or whatever, I can go somewhere. Wow, wow I wouldn't go there, man. I wouldn't go there. So the uh so it's still Passover.
+
+[7:05] Really? Yeah, it's like an eight-day thing. Isn't that Hanukkah? I have no listen, you're gonna have a holiday. May as well make it a holidays.
+
+[7:14] Yeah, yeah. So uh so do you hate it like when peop when people want to say are you a guy who goes all out and says Amari, like pluralized it? Isn't it Amari is the plural? Or do you say amaroes? Are you pissed off either way?
+
+[7:28] I'm not pissed either way, but uh, it depends on the usage. You know, on the menu since day one, we've had a cocktail that involves eight different amari. Right. And that cocktail is called on the menu the eight amaro sazerak. And people call me out and they say, shouldn't it be the eight Amari Sazerac?
+
+[7:41] And I say, Well, I didn't eat three beans salad today, right? Three bean salad though is a three bean salad. But you don't say three beans salad. Unless you're Cesare Casella and he says always beans. No matter how many beans are involved, it's beans.
+
+[7:55] One beans. Beans. What do you mean? Beans. Right?
+
+[7:58] Yep. The man cannot say the word bean without adding an S to it. But a very, very Cesare beans. By the way, I hope are we gonna are are we you think we're gonna be able to carry uh well you're not you're not working on it, so you don't know. But I want to carry Cesare's ham at the bar.
+
+[8:12] Yeah, you shouldn't. I told him you were going to. What do you say? He said Don't care. Yeah.
+
+[8:17] I don't care. Beans. Like uh like anyway. I give no beans. Anyway, so like uh here's the thing.
+
+[8:23] So the with the Amaro, I'm gonna ask you some questions. Yeah. Why did they ruin Zuka? For those of you that don't know, Zuka is uh like one of these uh class called uh Rabarbaro, which is like a nice uh bitter. Supposedly it's rhubarb, it doesn't taste like rhubarb like you think of rhubarb.
+
+[8:41] It's it's Chinese rubber, which is a special, you know, a select type of reborn. And they typically use it in a maceration and they typically use it when it's dried. When Chinese rhubarb is dried, it smells and tastes smoky, like it's been smoked, though it has not. Um so you get this real smoky, earthy amaro after you know when you make a rhubarbara. But Zuka in particular is what you want to talk about.
+
+[9:03] Yeah, so the best known one of these here in the US is Uka. And for years we loved it. And then they changed the damn recipe. What's up with that? So yeah, this is happening a lot with um Amari in general.
+
+[9:17] Um there, see, I use the plural. Um everybody is getting on board with the notion of cocktails, which of course we created here in the United States. Um, you know, uh the rest of the world still really doesn't make cocktails. They sort of look at us funny when we talk about mixing things. But don't tell the English that.
+
+[9:35] Yeah. So the deal is, yeah. So the deal is or the Germans at this point. Lots of them, lots of Amari are stepping forward and saying, oh, if if people are gonna use our stuff in cocktails, they need to be stronger because most of them are hover around like 23%, you know, pretty low proof, uh, which has no not enough of a backbone, even though they've got big flavors to stand up in in cocktails. So my I haven't talked to anybody at Zuka, but you know, they changed their recipe and they they basically doubled the proof.
+
+[9:59] So it's a lot higher in proof, it's a lot hotter, um, which changes how you drink it. Um, but I think they're they're aiming to be included in the cocktails. Just doesn't taste as good as it's like the flavor, of course. It just doesn't taste good anymore. I like a lot of the new high proof ones.
+
+[10:11] Like I I like the uh even though they had a horrible post, uh the um uh what is it? The uh uh what is it? It's out of my head. Luca. The uh Lucano?
+
+[10:23] Yeah, Lucano. They they had a horrible Instagram post, like a couple like horrible, like for International Women's Day, it was some like so bad that we're all like, uh I don't know if I can use Lucano anymore. Oh, but I didn't even see this. Yes, just terrible. You see that one stuzz?
+
+[10:39] No. Anyway, but then uh I was just we're just like they're like, I don't know, it was it was some horrible, like, you know, like one of those like man Ray things or something of a woman as a musical instrument saying we love women, they're amazing, Lucano, or something like that. Like something just something just like you know, off the wall, not cool. But uh they make a high-proof one that I think is actually works really well. They do.
+
+[11:02] Uh Chinar makes one as well. Uh they came out with one that's uh uh uh 70 proof Chinar C. Bartenders like that. You like that one or you like the original one? I like them both because I can use them differently.
+
+[11:11] But the thing is what we just said, both, right? So Zuka decided to change theirs and not offer the other one as well. Lucano still offers the one that they've always offered. Chinar offers the one they've always offered. I think that was their Suka's bigger mistake.
+
+[11:22] So Jack Shram, our once in Future head bartender, yeah. It like he has uh he has some sort of like Zuka sense. So like if he walks into any bar, like he won't even look at the back bar, and he'll sit at a table and then he'll say they have a bottle of old zucca on their back bar up. It's right there. And then like and then like he like he has like an eye for old Zuka.
+
+[11:45] He once walked into uh a liquor store with me. We were looking for something else, and he was like, They have the old Zuka. I'm buying it all. And he just bought he buys it all for his personal consumption. I wonder if we could, you know, we have some sway.
+
+[11:59] We could reach out to them and see if they'll you know relaunch the old formula. Yeah, do they have like no like people back pedal? Remember new Coke? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pepsi Clear?
+
+[12:10] Come on. Did you ever go to the have you ever been to the uh that um uh Omaro like trade show festival they have in Milan? Yeah, I got to go to that um I don't think it was three years ago. Um fascinating because it's not just Omaro, it's also like this giant food festival. So as a former chef, like that that rang my bells as well.
+
+[12:28] Yeah, problem is it's freaking useless because you're like, hey, it's going to the States and they're like, no. No. Yeah, no. No. Uh no, we're doing this for us.
+
+[12:35] Uh and it was also like goddamn Disney World. It's it's a massive, massive uh fairgrounds that they hold this thing on. It's incredible. Yeah, we've talked about this on the air before, Stas, but Italians are so funny because they'll drink like as much of that as they want and then wine with their meal. But they're like, hey, chip, we don't want to drink no drink.
+
+[12:55] Yeah, are you alcoholic? Like if you want to have a cocktail before dinner, they're like, think you're not, but they're meanwhile, they're pounding these DJ Stefs and wine throughout the whole thing, but they don't consider that drinking. Oh, yeah, exactly. It's very cultural. It's very um, this is just h how it's done.
+
+[13:09] We're not and I think I love I love that, you know. Uh here in America, we say, oh, we get out of work and it's happy hour where we're gonna go somewhere where the drinks are half priced and and double the strength, and we're gonna get pretty wasted real quick, and then go home and eat like a blue box of macaroni and cheese and pass out and and wake up the next day and do it again. Whereas these guys Wow, that's what that's that's your impression of us as a bigger one. Yeah, wow. Uh you know, not the folks who come to the city.
+
+[13:34] When you go to a Mar A Margo and you see Southern behind the bar, this is what he thinks about you. This is what he thinks about you. No, see, I'm serving the Italian mac and cheese at the bar. Yeah. You know, but but in Italy, uh uh, you know, you have the aperitif hour, which is not an hour.
+
+[13:48] It's it's the ap aperitif afternoon. You you go to lunch and you have an uh uh you know a comparian soda or uh uh maybe you go so far as to have like a spaliato and then uh stash, you like those. You kind of don't stop drinking these low ABV cocktails until it's dinner time. Hey, hey, oh, whoa, hey! What's that?
+
+[14:09] I think that's Peter uh trying to speak Italian. What is that? I don't know. What is that, Dave? I don't know.
+
+[14:15] Something on the internet. Something on the internet. Something on the internet. Oh. That's like Vistassi.
+
+[14:21] Remember when we're at the airport? We had just gotten back from England, right? No, yeah. That's a separate story. That's not it's not related to what we're talking about now, so we can't we can't bring it up.
+
+[14:31] Uh well we gotta call her when you when you wrap that one up. All right, caller, caller, caller on the air. Yes. Hi. Um so uh yeah, first time caller, long time listener.
+
+[14:44] I think I started listening to your show in like 2012. Ouch. Um, I've been going through the archives uh slowly but surely. Um I uh was listening to your show from last week yesterday, and I actually um so your first caller, um talking about wild cheeses, Oswagonda, ayahuasca, right? Oh, are you the person who texted me?
+
+[15:11] Uh uh not texting me, tweeted me and said that uh she was confusing two things. Because if not, good, either way, good. Explain the difference because I didn't have a chance to go look it up. Okay, so um I'm also glad you guys have a bitters expert on, um, because Ashwaganda is definitely a part of bitters that I've made. I grew up in an apothecary.
+
+[15:30] My mom's been making bitters since I was like six years old. So um herbal medicine's like a big part of my cooking career. I I've been cooking since I was like 14. Um so Aswagonda is a supplement. It is used to make a wild cheese.
+
+[15:47] Um sort of like have you ever heard of like yard, that nettle cheese from Cornwall? Yeah. So it's it's the same same sort of process. Uh they use the berries of this stuff that's called uh Indian ginseng in India. It's used all over India.
+
+[15:59] It uses a tea, it's a long life, like an elixir um supplement. People in the US have been getting really into it because it's like really good at lowering lowering cortisol and stress. It's actually probably exactly what your caller needs to be taking. It has nothing to do with ayahuasca. They're not the same thing at all.
+
+[16:17] Right, not a hallucinogen. Right. I know. I I I wrote the wrong thing on the No, but that's what she said. That's what she said on the air.
+
+[16:23] That's what I'm saying. Well, she said it was like that, but she did say that. No, but it's not a it's not a hallu oh, she it's not a hallucinogen. This stuff is not going to send you on a terrible trip. Right, right.
+
+[16:33] We got a lot of calls and emails about that, so I apologize to the ayahuasca lobby out there. Sorry. Like there is one. All right, so go ahead, caller. It's probably somewhere in uh Silicon Valley.
+
+[16:43] Is this stuff taste good? My main thing is is this stuff taste good? Um, well, I mean, as a as a as a component in a bitters, um, you know, all mid all bitters are originally a medicine, right? That's that's why they're created. It's it's a way to take the medicinal plants around us and preserve them.
+
+[17:01] Um and then that is will, you know, slowly turn into the art form that is that it is now today. So what I'm hearing from you is no, it does not taste good. Well, I wouldn't say it's great. It tastes like a bitters, you know. Um, okay, let me give you let me give you an example.
+
+[17:18] Like, I like I mean, I I like like gens, I like that stuff in the proper amount, like with other flavors. I I like the flavor. It but whereas like uh what's something that I find unpleasant? What's a bitter flavor that I find unpleasant in any quantity? I don't know.
+
+[17:38] I guess bitter flavors I don't find them unpleasant. I can't try to think of a can you get can either of you guys think of a bitter flavor that's just inherently unpleasant? Like I don't like, okay. I don't like, no offense to Philip Duff, because I know he's worked with them, but farrokinas, the taste of iron in a drink is very challenging. But the iron is not bitter, though.
+
+[17:59] That's not the bittering agent. It's not bitter. It's iron citrate, so it's not bitter. But that's the thing. I don't know of any bitter notes that are actually just bitter that I detest.
+
+[18:08] You know what I'm saying? I I certainly don't. I like them all. And that's how I wound up and where I'm at now. I I enjoy them.
+
+[18:15] But what about the flavor? Like, what about the there are flavors that go with bitterance that make things unpleasant, right? So like some people don't like dusty, like the that dusty note that you'll get in like Sue's or something like this, right? Which a bunch of different agents can produce that. Make that dusty kind of note.
+
+[18:32] But does this stuff like can it be made into a pleasant bitters? Yeah, yeah, I would I would say so. Yeah, of course. It's uh it's it's a little, it's kind of earthy. Um, it's uh kind of hard to describe what uh what uh what that taste is.
+
+[18:48] Um tell me the name of it again. Aswaganda. Aswaganda. Also known as uh Indian ginseng, poison gooseberry. Um with a name like poison baseball uh it makes a fruit that looks like a gooseberry, it's got like a husk around it, and that's what you would use to make that wild cheese.
+
+[19:04] Is it related to the Ashwaganda? Do you is it related to a real gooseberry like a new chuva or I mean is it in fact a gooseberry? Um it is a nightshade. Yeah, they're all night. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:17] Do you happen to know of light shade family? Do you happen to know of any commercially made uh tincture or portable bitters that involve it? Um yeah, they sell them. They sell uh a lot of commercial ashagana. Oswaganda is like one of the top selling supplements in the United States.
+
+[19:27] It's used by bodybuilders, weightlifters, it's used by all sorts of different people. It's really it's it's honestly it's great for you. Lowers your stress levels. Um elixir of long life in India. But we over here we've started using it for uh like you know, supplement geeks have all sorts of YouTube videos about it.
+
+[19:47] Go on YouTube and you'll find a bunch of people explaining like all the the uh the minutia. Yeah, I'm gonna check it out. Do you have a uh do you have a short life elixir? That's what Nastasi wants to feed me. Short life.
+
+[19:58] Yeah, wait, um, so caller, I got I got another one for you. Speaking of short life elixirs, elixirs. Since you are interested in this sort of thing, and I have not tasted it in southern maybe you have. Have you tried the uh rhododendron honey, the toxic rhododendron honey? No.
+
+[20:11] No. But you guys have heard of it, the mad honey. It's from like Turkey, and then up in the mountain areas, they have a couple of species well, you know, rhododendrons are poisonous, right? So there's a couple species of rhododendron where the uh nectar contains a neurotoxin that wait for it in small amounts. People find pleasant, but in large amounts are problematic, and it makes this I think colored honey.
+
+[20:38] I I think the honey has a color to it, but it's called like m mad they when they try to sell it to you, it's called mad honey, but there's an actual Turkish word for it. And I think it crosses over to the other side of the mountains as well, but it's like that kind of mountainous area of Turkey where it comes from. It's I mean, it's expensive, but it's not like that expensive because you you're only eating like a sm well, unless you're unless you're dumb, you're only eating a small amount of it, and it's like I think it's like hundred dollars the pound. But here's the thing. I don't think, and this is a good point with herbs too.
+
+[21:08] Maybe you want to talk about it, caller. I think it's unethical to put something that you think has some sort of bioactivity into a drink if there's even a possibility that someone might have a negative reaction to it. Because look like you're serving someone alcohol, right? Right, already a poison. Right.
+
+[21:26] But it's assumed that they know how to deal with alcohol because they showed up at a bar and ordered alcohol. If you're selling them like, you know, uh something that can, you know, affect their kidney function, or you don't know what's going on with their body and you don't know how they're gonna react to it. You know what I mean? Some of these herbs actually have real effects on too. Sure, this is why I'm staunchly.
+
+[21:50] That's why we tinctured them in the first place. Right. Of course. But that's why uh as you know, we work together at the bar too, Dave. Um that's why I'm staunchly against things like uh tobacco bitters.
+
+[22:02] I'm really staunchly against uh the the green dragon that everybody makes with the with the you know the the the pot bitters. Well, I'm not gonna say who I know who we share in common that makes that and came up with that, but his argument is actually thinking if if I know the person in a couple of things. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm not gonna put it on my drink menu and just put it in people's drinks without especially because you don't live in Colorado. Well, that too.
+
+[22:24] Yeah. Oh, about cannabis. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't sure what's going on. Yeah, but they that yeah, the green dragon marijuana?
+
+[22:29] The green the green dragon, yeah, is a is a cannabis tincture. But um I mean, I think that that's you know, like the great thing about the legalization we activated is that it's a very good thing. Like, I don't put anything in my drinks that can fuck with them any harder than alcohol. Oh, sorry, they can my show's not, I'm sorry. I don't put anything in my drinks that can screw with people any more than the alcohol that's in the drink screws with them because that's what they're expecting when they come in, you know.
+
+[22:51] Right, but I think a lot of people who are getting into making bitters don't think necessarily about I mean, like for instance, like uh Kinchona bark obviously can cause lots of problems if you overdo it. It's thankfully hard to overdo and still make a palatable drink. Exactly, yes. Yeah, so for that one, it's relatively self-limiting. But also it it collects, so you can make a palatable drink at the at the far end of that palatability and then have two or three of them, and then you still get the same effect.
+
+[23:24] Is that true? Yeah, it piles up. Sweet. Like I don't know, I don't know what the biological half-life. Have you ever noticed that some bitterants actually do have not just in your body but have a uh a palate like reinforcing effect such that it gets progressively more bitter?
+
+[23:39] Oh yeah. The uh Elcera Novasalis certainly does that. Yeah. Sip one is bitter, sip two is more bit and this is uncommon, right? Uh yeah.
+
+[23:48] Uh typically you get a you know, you it sort of dissipates, you you get palated or whatever. Elisara Novasalis is a potable bitter. Uh that uh the sweetener in that one is uh the sap from one of the trees where they get the bark that make the thing bitter in the first place. And sap is not sweet. It's sticky, but it's not sweet.
+
+[24:07] Um but this this bitter as you drink it becomes more and more bitter. Which is uh which is pretty uncommon. Yeah. So uh I had another bitter question. What was it?
+
+[24:16] Uh I don't know. Let's take a break first. Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. We have a bitters expert on the on a uh tincture expert. Oh, here's one for you.
+
+[24:23] Here's something I've never been able to figure out. I want anyone in the uh on the uh internets uh who can hear this to help me figure it out. It's it's a we know for a fact that um Aperol and Kampari, if stored in a bottled drink, at least a a carbonated bottled drink with acid, will uh get more bitter over the course of like twenty-four, forty-eight hours. It will get progressively more bitter to the point where it's unpalatable. What it's diluted?
+
+[24:55] Uh yeah, it's diluted and but we've st you can store it diluted, but as soon as you add acid, you know, like uh, you know, the equivalent of uh the same acid that you would have in um like a gen and tonic or any one of our carbonated drinks. Uh and I've never tested it with lime. We uh we use a mixer mixture of uh mallet uh sorry uh lactic and tartaric acid uh with compari and uh it just g and apparol and it just gets intensely bitter. So we had to, even though those acids don't spoil, we still had to add the acid on pour at service time because otherwise it would go unpalatably unpalatable uh unpalatably bitter. In 24 hours.
+
+[25:38] Yep. And well, it was it was one of those things where uh you know how I am. Like I was getting like vi like violently angry. I would go in, I would make the drink, I'd be like, boom, I love it. I'm out, and then I would bottle it, and then I would call in the next day, I'd be like, Did you did you try it?
+
+[25:52] And they're like, Oh, it's too bitter. It's no and then I was like, what? And then finally I went back and tasted yesterday's batch because as everyone knows, you know, we do at the bar life tests, right, to see how long a product lasts, you know, especially if you're gonna pre-batch because you don't want to throw away with liquor. And yeah, it just got more and more bitter. None of us can figure out why.
+
+[26:10] It's weird. You have have you had any other uh bitter tinctures that if you store them differently, like they get if you suddenly compound two things together, they they go crazy on you. That's really interesting. I I haven't I haven't ever had to deal with that before, but I would like to kind of get into it. You said it's Aperol and um yeah i mean start with compar I mean i would start with compari because i know it happens more kind of aggressively there so just make like a comp make like a like a compari soda right add acid to it so it's like acidic right as though you had squeezed lime in but uh again I use mala uh sorry tartaric and lactic acid uh and then store it taste taste it be like yes this tastes good and then uh store it uh for 24 hours go back and taste it and you can even make a fresh one side by side and the the bit the bitterness difference is like uh is apparently so you're just adding you're just adding just like soda water or carbonated water to compare and then adding some sort of acid that's that's the three yeah and because it's me because it's me I also recarbonate the whole thing because you know that's what I think of course um well that's not a question I can answer but I can ask my mother she will probably know all right well uh tweet it on back tweet the answer on back to cooking issues if you can find it oh last question I tweeted you a couple weeks ago um who is the chef who moved to California you guys had this you we were talking about this chef I don't remember what episode it was on it could have been years ago uh I just moved to California I'm in Venice right now um you were talking about on one of your episodes one of the hundreds um there was a chef who had like this lost manuscript that was about fish um he has one that's available on public domain he was like an early like 19th century chef who moved to California told all the growers he wanted to go this and that and the other thing, and he has like a lot of he made a lot of impact on the California food system.
+
+[28:07] Who is that guy wait but he's he's a New Yorker who moved to California re like recently in the past five years. Ooh, man. See, Dave, we'll get one of the intimates to look into that. Dave in the booth. This is why it would be nice to be able to search what we've had.
+
+[28:22] Because I can't remember. Uh I don't remember. Although Nick Mom. Cause I when I was driving out here, I just had you guys on. Like, all right, let's do this one.
+
+[28:35] All right, let's do this one. All right. And then I heard that on my way out here, and I wanted to talk to uh Chef that I'm working for here about that, and I cannot find the episode. I mean, I know people that have like ancient Thai manuscripts. I know people like WePop had a bunch of old Thai manuscripts, and so we know someone else who had a bunch of Thai, but fish.
+
+[28:54] So he had a book about he had a book that he wrote that was like his like kind of like his guide to vegetables at the time. It was like the the on food and cooking of his time about like every single kind of vegetable that they had available in America to cook with descriptions of everything. Oh, if you want, well, this has nothing to do with a chef, but if you want like all the vegetables that were available in the New York City markets uh right after the Civil War, you're gonna want to go on Google Books and look up one of my favorite books, the market assistant. And the picture of the guy at the front of the market assistant looks like Bill the Butcher Poole from um Gangs of New York. In other words, like Daniel Day Lewis and Spirit Animal, Daniel Day Lewis, who's whose toughest role is just as a loving father from New Jersey.
+
+[29:41] Uh but the uh he's like, How do I play this? I just want my kids back. Yeah, well, not even. I just gotta pick up my kids from school. Like, how do you get like how do you get all bent for that?
+
+[29:49] Anyway, but like, because that's like everyone's life. Anyway, point being uh market assistant is everything that's available, and you can see the crazy diversity of ingredients that uh we had in um the 1800s. I mean, just bananas, you know what I mean? So instead of 18 varieties of Oreo, you had 18 varieties of small bird you could buy. No bananas though, because they haven't been invented yet.
+
+[30:13] Right. Yeah, well, uh, do you have information on the banana, Dave? Are you a are you a uh a historian of the uh of United Fruit and uh what we did to all of the countries south of us in order so that we could get cheap bananas? Can't say I am consistently. Yeah.
+
+[30:29] Um, it's it's a horror show. All right, we'll take a break and we can talk about the horror shows of America and how you know the horrible things we've done to other people for fruit. And the banana hostino. Yeah, that's a good one. Coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[30:50] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Dave, we have a question from a listener about another Bob's Red Mill product this week. Kathy writes, I heard you talk about the science behind nutritional yeast, but what makes it taste like parmesan while bakers and brewers' yeast taste like, well, yeast. Kathy, I have to say, I haven't done too much research on this. Uh the main difference that I know of between nutritional yeast and regular bake yeast is twofold.
+
+[31:19] One, they can choose a specific strain of yeast when they're making uh nutritional yeast and doesn't have to make anything rise, so they can choose it just based on flavor. That's one. The second is is that the main difference between nutritional yeast and regular yeast is that nutritional yeast has been heated so that it's no longer active. And I'm sure that the heating, especially you know, I'm not sure what temperature they take it up to, but if they toast it at all, that toasting can bring out a lot of those kind of nutty, cheesy, more parmesan notes, and you're not going to get any kind of active fermentation notes out of a nutritional yeast because it's dead. If you have more questions about Bob's Red Mill products, tweet it to us at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[31:57] Get your hands on nutritional yeast. Go to Bob's Redville.com and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order. And we're back. All right, I'm gonna do some questions.
+
+[32:11] We got time for one because there's a show at one. So time to wrap it up. Time to wrap it up. All right, Devin from Seattle, Washington writes in. We're gonna go speed.
+
+[32:19] Suther, you're gonna have some stuff to say about this. Cookie issues crew. Uh for years I've been wanting to create a juice production and distribution business directed towards bars slash restaurants slash hotels in my city. And recently the time has presented itself to move forward on this idea. That is until yesterday, when the Department of Agriculture and FDA told me that raw juice, the same juice that we make and use in bars every day, can only be sold direct to customer and wholesale juice must be pasteurized.
+
+[32:40] So here's my question. What? I'm reading. To back that up. I can't, I don't have time.
+
+[32:55] Could I run my juice through a VAC master and serve the juice within the same day of pressing with similar results as non-pasteurized fresh juice? Specifically, would the VAC master kill enough bacteria to pass lab tests performed by the FDA to be considered pasteurized enough? Answer, no. VACMaster will not kill any bacteria. It's just simply vacuum-packing it.
+
+[33:12] Other bacteria won't grow. But here's the actual truth is you can sell juice to uh people uh what you have to do non-pasteurized, but for citrus only, you have to get you have to purchase verified tree-picked no-ground fall fruit. That's the first part of the rule. Secondly, you have to uh put in a sanitizer solution that has a proven uh log five reduction in bacteria for the external portion of the citrus fruit, rinse it off. You can then sell that citrus fruit to a commercial place with the label saying this juice has not been pasteurized and yada yada yada.
+
+[33:50] You can't do that for uh any other juice other than citrus. You can use non-heat pasteurization techniques such as ozone or UV light, but that is a huge pain in the butt, and you still need to prove that you have uh a five log reduction in pathogens. Here is another way around it. You can sell it retail, and then even if somebody buys 80,000 jugs of it, how do you know where they're using it? That's the way Manhattan Fruit Exchange does it here in New York City.
+
+[34:19] That's kind of what I was gonna say. They sell jug after jug after jug of fruit, and they don't ask you whether you have a really big family or a restaurant. Uh so that's one way to do it. And then of course, it's on the other people. They're doing something illegal, but at least you're not doing something illegal.
+
+[34:34] All right, very good end. I will I will say also that you know the guys over at Cocktail Kingdom, they tried to put together a similar business and uh they shut it down because of the expense it was gonna cost to go through the pasteurization process. Yeah, for that reason. They were doing that for about a year. You could call up Cocktail Kingdom as a as a bar, restaurant, hotel, and buy fresh juice that would be delivered within 24 hours.
+
+[34:53] It was amazing. And uh yeah, they got they got shut down. All right, so I didn't I didn't get to the rest of my dang questions. Nope, gotta go. Not even a 30-second question, huh?
+
+[35:01] Cooking issues. Uh my book drops on uh August 28th. What's it called, Southern? I'm just here for the drinks. Alrighty, buy it.
+
+[35:10] You didn't say it. Cooking issues. There it is. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[35:32] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[35:58] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Enjoy food the way nature intended. Alaska seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable. For more information, visit wildalaskud.com. Hey, thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:15] This is Katie, HRN Executive Director, and I'm so excited to share with you our coverage from the Charleston Wine and Food Festival. We are here live today at Charleston Wine and Food. Join us as we talk all things food. Come to Charleston, eat some seafood. Eat all of the seafood.
+
+[0:32] Chicken fried chicken with chorizo steak and salsa verde mashed potatoes. So quintessentially like Southern fair at its finest. And have important conversations. Yeah, I was told that uh I wasn't going to be bleeped out and find out about raising sugar cane with Chef Sean Brock. It's like being Indiana Jones or something.
+
+[1:05] You never know what you're gonna find. You'll come away inspired by the power of food and the food scene in Charleston. Here's Dr. Jessica B. Harris.
+
+[1:13] Food is constantly in flux. Food is always moving. Food is the only real lingua franca that we have that allows us to connect with other folks. So tune in to Heritage Radio Network on tour at Heritage Radio Network.org or wherever you get your podcasts. You can't go wrong.
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+[1:41] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. We got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez late today because there is a police investigation on the L train. Oh God. Yeah.
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+[2:00] And we got Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? Good. I'm glad I took a car today. You took a car?
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+[1:59] Yeah, I was running late. So fancy. Every time. Well, you okay? So it used to be every once in a while.
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+[2:11] This is one of the reasons I decided to just be like screw it when I was late, because it used to be that when I was gonna be late, I would try to take a car here, depending on where I was coming from, because you know, if I wasn't near the L or what. And there's always there used to always be this giant truck delivery that would stop the car for like five minutes, like right in the middle. And you know how, like, in this neighborhood, if a truck needs to make a delivery, they're like, um, stop now. You know what I mean? Yo, I can hear the honking sometimes from in here.
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+[2:37] Yeah, yeah. So I was like, you know what? Screw it. I'm never gonna do it again. I'll just be a couple minutes late and not have to because nothing burns me more than spending money to be in a car and sitting there like a jerk.
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+[2:46] Especially in this neighborhood in Brooklyn where there should be legitimately there should be no traffic. Oh, and here's Nastasia. I'm Nastasia's gonna climb behind me because she doesn't she doesn't want to walk in front of me. She knows how unhappy I get. How are you doing, Nastasia?
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+[3:01] We don't want to obstruct your voice, Dave. Oh, geez, yeah, that's a real problem. Speaking of which, you you missed the uh the intro, which was about the Charleston Food and Wine Fest. When was that? Uh when was that, Dave?
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+[3:12] That was the beginning of March. Yeah. Isn't it the beginning of March right now? No, April. No, incorrect.
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+[3:19] Oh, April. Yeah, things blur together for me. I'm getting old. I forget. Anyway, but like I was just in Charleston uh last weekend, and I can say, actually, I was in Charleston yesterday.
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+[3:27] It's today, Tuesday. Yes. Uh, and I can say uh a cool town. I'd never been there. Why did you take a cruise?
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+[3:33] I didn't take a cruise, Nastasia. You took a cruise? I did not take a cruise. Do you have neurovirus now? Uh I have Legionnaire's disease, which is much better.
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+[3:41] No, the uh renewable. So, like uh Fort Sumter, where the Civil War began is an island, a fake island, actually. They made it out of granite, but it's an island, and so to get to it, you have to go by boat. And as Nastasia knows, if I was going to have a set a third life after Leatherman, it would probably be Civil War reenactment reenactor. Although I'm now listening to a book, a book about Civil War reenactors, and I'll have to say, Nastasia, that the whole situation is like even more crazy than you imagine it is.
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+[4:14] Like the whole like how deep the scene gets. Don't care. Uh I think you you would be interested in hearing these stories. There are people who spend their lives starving themselves to be gaunt Confederate soldiers. Oh.
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+[4:26] So they starve themselves to death and practice laying on the ground and looking bloated like a two-day-old corpse. Wow. And they are aptly referred to as hardcore reenactors. That's about as hardcore as you can. I thought you meant you'd been reading about the Civil War.
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+[4:42] No, reading about reenactment. How's your uh C V book going? A Sue V book is going great. I started it. In fact, I uh Nastasia can see I have a new piece of equipment in my hands.
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+[4:53] I'm going to try to write it on this new iPad with this pencil. Nastasius, like I knew you. I was wondering about that. You were cradling it very awkwardly when you came in. Because I don't know how this thing works.
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+[5:03] And like, this is a big phone. Uh but like the uh this is a giant phone. But uh yeah, no. What are you talking to? How does this work?
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+[5:11] Although I just realized uh I just figured out how to get the music app in it to work, which was nice, very nice. Uh because I I've always hated Apple's music app. I've always used third-party apps, but the problem is is that since my son Dax bought that new uh Apple music garbage, it's all like uh it's all protected stuff, so none of my old DJ apps can get into Apple music, which is irritating. I'm sure you deal with this crap all the time, Dave, no. Dave's like, I don't know.
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+[5:37] I'm having a conversation. I can't, I don't know what you say. Sorry, were you talking to me? Yeah. I was saying, don't you have a problem, like what DJ apps can you use with Apple Music?
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+[5:44] You can't, because it's all DRM. So you can't. So Nastasia does a lot of work uh for this show, including uh like just sending me a thing saying answer the old questions without actually retyping the question she wants me to answer. So she's looking at her highlighting saying, answer old questions first, and doesn't realize that I've cop I've had to copy and paste the old and new questions into one document. Just goes to show the level of care that Nastasia has for you people out there that your questions get answered, i.e., zero.
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+[6:17] Uh okay. So, but I am gonna answer one of the old questions, uh, new questions first anyway, because here it is. Megan from San Antonio writes in, I liked San Antonio when I went. Did you know? Is that when the hotel room or the Airbnb that Peter booked for you?
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+[6:30] And the maid came in while you were No, that was in Austin. While you were what? I was trying to take a shower. She's like, you need to get out right now. I'm like, I'm in the shower, and they said I could stay.
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+[6:39] Nope. You gotta get out. Airbnb, whatever, don't even get me started on Airbnb. I saw these anti-Airbnb ads on TV the other day. They're like, they're they're blaming Airbnb for rising rents in New York.
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+[6:50] I was like, you gotta be effing kidding me. Well, how does I understand that? I mean, I get like, you know, racist Airbnb, I get that. What's the rising rents argument? I I don't know.
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+[6:58] It was just a TV uh there were obviously there was no explanation. Paid for by landlords of America. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? It's like people in our my building, because it's a big co-op, will because they're so nosy.
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+[7:11] People are so nosy and so into everybody's business and not wanting anyone to have anything that they don't, that they sniff around for Airbnb people and then try to report them, which I think is like just the most garbage way to live your life. If you live your life that way, get over it and just live your own life. If someone else is doing something wrong and getting some benefit from it, don't let that burn you. You're you, they're them. I have a personal question to ask our listeners.
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+[7:38] Well, that's a how do you ask a personal question of 30 people? That's only the live listenership. Yeah, yeah. So wait. So my landlord is selling my apartment.
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+[7:50] Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Yeah. The one that you live in? Yeah. Out from underneath you?
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+[7:53] Yeah. Are they allowed to do that? I guess. I had that happen to me in Philly, yeah. What?
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+[7:57] Yeah, but that's Philly. They have no people have no rights in Philly. This is New York City, no way of rights. No values. Yeah.
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+[8:02] So my building doorman gave me a tip on another uh nicer place that went up for rent. And without listing it, listing it on the market, they let me have first right refusal. Okay. So I was like, okay, great. I'll take it.
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+[8:17] They're trying to do that so you don't sue them for kicking you out of your No, no, no, because it's an owner, unit owner. It's not a building owned. Uh yeah. So I told the landlord that I got another place. She was like, you're supposed to stay till the end of May.
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+[8:30] And I was like, yeah, but you're selling it, and like I need another place. And you're renting from the same landlord. No, different landlord. Uh yeah. So she wants me to pay for the last month, even though like if she had sold- Are you asking me an ethical question, or what should you do?
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+[8:46] What should I do? I mean, pay that last month, even though she's No, don't pay and let her keep the security deposit. That's what's gonna happen. You're probably she's probably gonna keep your security deposit anyway. How many months security deposit you can do you have?
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+[8:56] Is that the same thing though, basically? No, no, what I'm saying is she's lost her security deposit, right? So the fair thing to do, because the landlord's never gonna give her the security deposit back because Well, I have two months, right? I haven't paid for this month, and she's asking for next month. All right.
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+[9:11] What do I do? You haven't damaged the apartment, right? I I actually made it better. Okay, that is up for debate. I'm sure it's got some crappy fake fireplace in it that you think makes it better.
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+[9:22] It's taking up half the dang apartment. But like if she had sold it, let's go. I made it better because I drilled holes in it. I'd have to move out, you know, two months ago when she listed it. That's not the point.
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+[9:37] Okay. That's not actually true. They can't terminate your lease to push someone else in it. That's not possible. Like, they'd have to pay you a bazillion dollars to do that.
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+[9:44] I'm sure that's possible, but that's not what's happening here. Right. Right. You're going to finish your lease and she's just not renewing it because she's gonna sell it. Yeah.
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+[9:52] The correct answer is just make sure that you don't pay that. I always like I always just let the security deposit be the last month's rent. Yeah, and I thought this month was the last month. So I was like, there's a security industry. You are ethically obligated to pay through your lease.
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+[10:09] Okay. Okay. I mean, Dave, back me up on this. I I haven't like technically been on a lease in New York yet. So what do you squat?
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+[10:22] I guess. No, seriously, what do you do? I mean, but ethically, you need to pay through your obligation. Where do you live that you don't have a lease? Probably he probably is living on someone else's lease.
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+[10:32] No, I have a lease. Yeah, yeah. I just or I mean I don't have the lease. The lease is not in my name, but yeah. Yeah.
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+[10:38] Uh yeah, I don't know. But but Airbnb it. Why don't you Airbnb it? I often I said that today. But the building is very snoopy.
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+[10:46] What are they gonna do? Keep you out. Boom! Kick me out, eh-hole. Because you're not gonna you're like you're it won't be my.
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+[10:54] Yeah, and you're not gonna you're like, you're gonna eat like they're like uh keep your security deposit. Like I'd already planned on that. You're not getting your last month's rent. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like that's true.
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+[11:02] That's true. I had this guy once, hack, his last name was Hack, jerk. I lived in this apartment for a year with my well, my future wife, right? Attic, hot as all get out. You know attic apartments, hot as hell, pit ceilings, right?
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+[11:17] You know, like because it's you're living under the roof there. And it came furnished, and the day we moved in, pillow was missing from the couch. I dealt with the missing, not not a small pillow, but dang, the the cushion, the freaking cushion. My job's right. We move out a year later.
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+[11:36] I had to live with that for a year, right? Then when we leave, he doesn't give us our security deposit. Guess what, guess why, people? Pillow. Pillow in the freaking couch.
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+[11:45] And that was a day that I said, Never again will a landlord get my security deposit. And that's the way it's been. Yeah, that you taught me that. Yeah. And I taught everybody else that.
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+[11:57] Yeah. I mean, it's not strictly speaking ethical, but it's what I do. I mean, I don't have a landlord anymore, but if I did, that's what I would be doing. It's just it's unfair when you leave to have to fight for your security deposit back, and they have the advantage at that point, because what are you gonna do? Actually, yeah, I had to do that back in Philly the last time I was on a lease.
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+[12:16] Uh I had to go to small claims court. Right. Why should you have to waste your time to get your money back? It's obviously a scam. They're just trying to get extra money, right?
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+[12:26] Yeah, yeah. He just like dropped off the face of the earth, stopped responding to my emails. Yeah, so I had to like go through this whole process. Sure. I won't get into right now.
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+[12:34] And a big landlord. I got it back. I got it back in full. Right. That's good.
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+[12:37] Did you get attorney's fees? Uh we didn't it never came to that point. We were gonna just go to small claims court and represent ourselves. And then like before we went to go in front of the judge, their attorney pulled me aside and was like, okay, like you can have the money. Because I like had this stack of paper, like evidence saying why we should actually get double back.
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+[12:57] Because like the law is if the landlord, at least in Pennsylvania, if the landlord doesn't give you notice about the status of your security deposit within like 60 days or something, then you can potentially claim double that if they're in the wrong. I like that. Take take take note, Philly. But here you know, I told D I ever tell you about the court case that uh the jury duty I got out of? No.
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+[13:21] So I'm sitting in the line for the jury duty, and they they call up the jurors to get questioned. And it was a case where this guy had not paid his rent, got evicted, and the landlord like like chucked in or sold the person's stuff, right? And um I was on the the jury and the the the lawyer said, So, um, you know, do you rent? I'm like, Yes, I I rent. And they're like, uh, do you, you know, what's your opinion of landlords?
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+[13:48] And I said, Well, I'm sure there's a good landlord somewhere. I haven't met them yet. You know what I mean? And like that's a good way to get out of jury, dude. They're like, Goodbye, sir.
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+[13:58] Did anybody laugh in the room? No, because everyone's bored and everything. They're trying to keep a straight face, but I guarantee you that the person next to me was like, Oh, I should have thought of that. Well, you you you answered in front of everybody. They didn't because I've had to go up to the judge and then they put on this white noise machine so other people can't hear your answers.
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+[14:13] Oh no, I yeah, no, those are like all in open yeah, all open. Oh well. I've been in jury duty and they're they've asked the entire room, like, has anyone had family members with addiction problems, or have you had addiction problems? And there's people that were like, 'Cause people are so willing to get out of it that they're like they're like I smoke crack. You know what I mean?
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+[14:32] Like they raise their hand and they're like, want to get out of jury duty. I have to say, the one time that I was actually on jury duty, I thought it was rewarding. It was a rewarding experience. I have to go later this month. Yeah?
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+[14:43] Yeah. Don't shirk your duty, Dave. I it's my civic duty. I agree. You know, I want people to serve on juries who, you know, have other things to do with their lives, because it means that they're, you know, on top of things.
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+[14:54] Yeah. Yeah, I want people on juries with brains. Yeah. Isn't that too much to ask? Uh apparently, yes.
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+[14:59] Oh, so back to Charleston. So I was in Charleston, real pretty. Uh I saw on the street, which was uh amazing, Leverpole espresso machine running on the street. And the woman who uh gave me a shot poured me uh uh uh very nice shot. It's a cool town.
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+[15:13] You can buy Carolina gold rice on the on the street, which I did. Uh well, you know, in a store that's on the street, like uh like several varieties of uh, you know, kind of small small producer stone ground grits. So I bought the you know Jimmy Red stuff. Yeah, it's good, really good. I had good food.
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+[15:29] I was at McCrady, speaking of Sean Brock. Uh what else did I do there? Um that's all. I had a good time. Walking in.
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+[15:36] What? What were you there for? So Heaven Hill, who makes among other things, Rittenhouse and Elijah Craig, right? So the written house. Yeah, written house.
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+[15:45] Who doesn't love Written House? Bad people. Like Ritten House is just a good product. It costs a lot more than it used to, but you know, we we still written house ride, we still use it all the time. So like uh they're doing this series of they're doing a contest, and as part of the contest around the country, they have the uh these dinners afterwards, and so literally my only job is to fly to this city and sit down at dinner.
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+[16:09] Yeah, and then like they're like, why do we have this guy do this? He is poor company. That's not true. That's so I so we talk about like cocktail balance and and whatnot. So the last one I went to, uh the guest judge was uh Jeffrey Morgenthaler, who you know from uh Portland, and uh this this week it was uh Joaquin Simo from uh it's actually Simo.
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+[16:31] He told me he's like, You've been pronouncing it wrong, like since I've known you, it's Simo. Joaquin Simo. Anyway, so he was the uh from Pouring Ribbons, he was the uh other guest judge today. If anybody meets Dave at a bar and Peter and I are there, uh cut your conversations short. So Nastasia and Peter ostensibly took me out for my birthday five days late, I'll add.
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+[16:55] They took me out of gone. I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, right. Oh, me, yeah, every day, man. I like uh my dream still is to grow up to be a Disney princess. Like, which one would you be, Sas?
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+[17:07] Disney princess. I have to think about that. I don't know. Ariel, duh. Why?
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+[17:11] Why does every man think she's so no to be her? I want to be her, not be with her, you gross person. She's like 12. Oh dear God. Maybe we should take a call.
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+[17:20] Yeah, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. How are you doing? Good, how are you? All right.
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+[17:25] Um, I have a roast chicken, crispy skin, lack of smoke detector question. Uh wait, you do not have a smoke detector. No, no. Of course, I wish. All right.
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+[17:36] I have a large, uh, high ceiling and a sensitive smoke detector. Is it removable or is it or is it hard-lined to the fire department so you can't disassemble it? Honestly, I can't even get to it. Like I have to go borrow a ladder and like I thought about put the shower cap on it or something. So I don't know what's up there.
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+[17:56] I'm renting and I probably can't screw with it. Oh another renter. Yeah. Yeah exactly renting issues. Yeah.
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+[18:02] Yeah that's the next show. Yeah. Actually I think that's the title of this one. Thanks, Collie. So I've been spat spatch cocking chicken at like 450 and then invariably like 25 minutes into it, it's just forget it.
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+[18:22] And then like gone like 500 degrees for five 10 minutes or so at the end, but that inevitably takes a long time and it's not the easiest thing to do just on a weeknight. So do you have any suggestions or yeah sure. So here's the give you a little preview of the book right the the thing about high temp cooking is that you need the high temp for the uh for the kind of crust on the on the outside that's true. But once you develop said crust, right, like other than the risk of b burning the outside like the high heat is not uh affecting the cook rate of your meat that much. It's just affecting to go back to my favorite term of art it's affecting the moisture management at the skin area right so the problem with um like you like there's various ways you can do this.
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+[19:21] You can go high early to start the the to kick start the cooking and to s develop the kind of start developing the browning reaction early on so that you can build with the browning reaction during the cook time at the lower temperature, right? And then there's the I'm gonna cook it at a relatively low temperature at the outset, and then I'm going to like crank it at the end to get the skin where I want it, right? And then there's the I'm gonna do a little bit of a both situation. And everything has advantages or disadvantages, but the the problem with cranking it at the end is that it's very hard to judge when you should crank it to get the skin color where you want it. And then if you have to do it too long at that high temperature, you risk overcooking the rest of uh of the meat.
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+[20:04] The advantage of doing it at the end is that you're only generating all that kind of smoke at the end, right? The the way that you're currently describing it, which is actually Barbara Kafka's preferred mesh method in her book Roasting, which was kind of a it's it's a book that I do mention in in my book, right? Um, is to just go high throughout. And her argument is accurately that you're not gonna overcook the middle uh of the meat by having a a high temperature, right? Uh, but she likes the kind of uh outside you get based on that.
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+[20:32] And that's still a kind of preferred situation for things like roast veg and whatnot, right? Where you're just trying to get high heat in and there's so much moisture you need to evaporate out of the veg to get the kind of flavor concentration out of roasting that you want, that basically fairly high heat is a good way to go the the whole way through, so long as you don't burn. Now, the problem when you're doing something like a chicken, even if it's spatchcock, which means it's gonna cook relatively quickly. Like a couple weeks ago, I I did a whole full-size turkey in like an you know, an hour, an hour and small change, batchcocking, pressing flat, you know what I mean, on a sheet tray with a with a high temp oven. Um the problem is is that you're gonna get uh smoking because as the stuff uh drips out into your pan and evaporates out of the pan, which it's going to evaporate at a fairly ferocious rate because you have a very high heat input there, it's gonna start to make a lot of smoke.
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+[21:23] There's just no way around that. So you can either, some various things you can do, you can have uh make sure that you have a drip pan so you could put the spatchcock thing directly on a grate, right? Now you're not gonna get that, you know how when you spatchcock, if you've deboned and you spatchcocked, you'll get that crispy underside where it's in contact with the uh with the sheet tray, you know what I'm talking about? Like you won't get that if you're on a grate, right? In fact, it'll be shielded, especially if you do this, but you'll decrease your smoke factor uh substantially if you periodically refill a uh a tray with water underneath and make sure that the water never runs completely dry.
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+[21:59] Now, I'd have to run tests to see whether or not that it's gonna increase the rate of cooking because you've increased the humidity in your oven. I don't know, to be honest, whether it will affect the absolute crispy kinda uh quotient of your skin. I haven't done the test, so I can't say. But that's one way to keep the smoke down, right? Okay.
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+[22:17] Uh but another way, the way that I I would recommend is I would hit high, right? Hit high to get the browning started, right? Then add uh then turn it down, right? And add a little kind of liquid so that you're not so that you're not uh like getting like scorched stuff, but turn it down for the majority, then make sure all the liquid is gone because now after you've done the the cooking, you now want to get as much moisture off the surface of the skin as possible to re-crisp it. Because after you do your initial browning, you'll start getting moisture migration through the meat up through the skin, and the skin will lose some of its crispness.
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+[22:53] So I I would then jack it again at the end, but just for a short amount of time, like right towards the end of cooking, so that you're not in danger of overcooking. Is that makes sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's what I would try.
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+[23:04] Thank you. Appreciate it. I'll give it a try. Cool. Let us know how it goes.
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+[23:07] Thanks so much. All right. Uh so uh this is uh from Megan in San Antonio. I have a question about Day's fermented OJ that he has talked about her numerous times. Uh I listen frequently, and my boyfriend is a bartender in downtown San Antonio.
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+[23:20] Well, that's your first mistake. Going out with a bartender, boom, just kidding, just messing with you. Come on, people. Just messing with you. Um got jokes.
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+[23:29] Yeah, got got them all day long. Uh so I brought I brought it up to him uh and I want to make this fermented OJ, and he found it very interesting. So interesting that he wants to implement it in a highball cocktail. Uh, we have 64 ounce growlers and airlocks and no shortage of fresh OJ. Uh, and she, you know, apologizes to the barbacks for having to make the fresh OJ.
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+[23:48] Uh, when we first pitched the champagne yeast, we let it ferment for a few days. After that, the yeast and pulp settled, and it tasted fizzy and had a dry but meaty, not necessarily unpleasant smell, similar to uh lunch meat ham. Nastasia is gonna make a lunch meat ham drink face, I'm sure, which is just gross, right? Yeah, lunch meat ham. You know, people, there are very few people on this earth who love ham more than I do.
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+[24:10] There are people who love it as much as I do, but there are very few people who love it more because how could I love it more? But I don't want to drink it necessarily. Ham soup, yes, hot ham water. I mean, I could see hot ham water. By the way, before I answer this question, Dave, if you could go to a bar, let's say the bar was called the clam broth house.
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+[24:31] Okay, and they had a spigot of constantly flowing hot clam broth. Would you see this as a good thing or a bad thing? Uh bear in mind, the name of the bar is the clam broth house. So it's like you know what you're getting into if you go, but what do you got? I hate clams.
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+[24:52] Specifically, I hate the broth. You know what I mean? You're not going to the clam broth house. You know what? It used to be in Hoboken.
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+[24:58] Wait, this is real? Yeah. Of course, in Hoboken. I think it was Hoboken. It could have been Jersey City.
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+[25:02] But the best thing, Google this up. You gotta look at the signs. This they had two signs, and it's just a finger. And it just it just says clam broth and it just points. It's like clam broth house.
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+[25:13] Yeah. Oh, right here, right here. And they got one that points like at a clam broth right in. Yeah, they got one that points at like a 45. Oh, clam broth, right here.
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+[25:20] And then they got one that points straight down. Straight down, dudes. Like at the doorway. Oh, down here, clam broth. You know what I mean?
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+[25:30] And so it's like. And so, like, I had this dream of having the clam broth fountain at the bar, and Don's like, no. Why? Nobody wants clam broth. No, nobody wants that.
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+[25:41] People, let me hear from you. Do you like clam broth? First of all, clam chowder, which everybody likes, right? Is all it is is clam broth plus, right? Clam broth plus bacon, potatoes, and and milk.
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+[25:57] Clam house, clam broth house, right here. Nastasi's looking at the right ear, right here. Uh I encourage you to Google image search that. How awesome is that, Nastasia? Wait, what did they dispense it into?
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+[26:09] Like a bowl or something. It is a fountain. So you would drink it out of a glass, or you would get a bowl of it and then you would eat it with a spoon. Since it closed before I could go there, you're you're asking what I imagine. These are these are questions that need answers.
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+[26:22] I imagine that you have a coffee mug, preferably a warm coffee mug kept in like a warmer, that someone hands you, and you just walk up and you just put it under the clam broth spigot, and then you and then the the real problem is that how can you do it? Because you're you you know you can't afford to like one and done your clam broth, right? What do you think their conversation was? What do we want our sign to look like? Right here.
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+[26:48] So like what do you mean you can't one and done it? You can't one and done it. Like you don't have like how many liters of clam, okay. So our pump runs 50 liters an hour. We're open for eight hours, so we need 400 liters of clam broth today.
+
+[27:00] No, you have like a you have like you're recircle you're recirculating your clam broth. Oh, which means that if somebody dribbles or spits or double dips and then puts it out of their glass, it becomes unsanitary. Even if you heat it. Nobody wants clam broth plus spit. Correct.
+
+[27:16] So that's the question of how do you I mean you could one and done it if you had to press a button to dispense it, but that's a lot less cool than just having like the somehow like having flowing broth. It's like having flowing seltzer. You know what I mean? Like when you go to Saratoga and you have flowing water out of the ground with bubbles. There's just something Yeah, I don't think there's any way around this.
+
+[27:36] You have to have the button. But the button's a lot less cool. Can we not agree that the button's a lot less cool? I mean uh I don't know. Think about it.
+
+[27:46] Let's go back to the question. Uh so uh Megan's uh OJ had a uh meaty but not necessarily unpre pleasant ham smell. That's how we got into clam broth house, by the way. Wait, did you know that it was the bone broth of the day and it was supposed to lift the fog of even the most severe hangover? Are you on the website right now?
+
+[28:04] Uh I'm saying is that I think a good hangover cure. Look, there's a reason why those like clamato things became popular with the tomato crap, and it's because tomato was seen as a hangover or like a morning after kind of thing. Clam was seen as that, you know, which is weird because now if you mention seafood to most people, like most people for hangover now are like, I love bacon, right? That sounds like what like a stevedore would drink first thing in the morning. Which, you know, stevedors knew what was up.
+
+[28:31] I mean, that's my guess. I think Sinatra's mother was a fixture at the bar. Like they mummified her body. She was hanging on the wall like Silvio Borlusconi here. All right, all right.
+
+[28:45] So back to the OJ. So, uh, and then she finishes her question, which says, uh, for consistency, is there any temperature range and amount of time you should recommend for fermenting in a bar setting for the final product, just looking for the OJ to be pleasantly dry and can be force carbonated if needed. So, Megan, I think your problem is that you uh, and I this might not be what you want to hear, but often if you're gonna ferment something like OJ on its pulp, it's going to be, even if that pulp settles out, you're gonna have a very different uh taste than if you uh clarify it first. And I've seen like a lot of fruits can have kind of funky tastes if they're fermented with their pulp, right? Uh and so, for instance, even apple cider, right?
+
+[29:28] If you ferment it with all of its stuff versus clarifying it first, you get a different taste. I know that firsthand because I've tried it, but I think OJ in particular, you're probably gonna get more of these funky aromas if you ferment it entire and then uh let the stuff settle out. So I would try clarifying it first. I'm not saying that you should go buy a spinzole or something, but buy a spinzel. But yeah, find some way of clarifying the OJ first and try it.
+
+[29:54] Even if you only have a small amount of it, try it. Because I think that's what those uh aromas are coming for from. As for consistency uh for consistency and bar thing, I haven't been that um kind of uh um what's the word I'm looking for? Consistent with it. Like typically I'll pitch, I'll leave it on a countertop at ambient until I get a good fermentation going, and then I'll cool it down a bit, you know, you know, in like 60 or something in uh in uh you know 5560 in a wine situation uh for a little bit at I'll let it go basically almost all the way through primary and then put it into the wine uh cooler to let it settle out before I rebottle it.
+
+[30:32] But let me know uh and give it a shot. It is hot as hell in San Antonio, so I'm sure like bar top like can be hot if you're if your HVAC is not so good. Hey, Dave, did I answer the question about uh the juice business? I don't know, but we got a caller. All right.
+
+[30:48] Uh well I well, I got the caller. Somebody figure out if I answered the question about the person trying to start the juice business because I know I spoke about it with Don, but I don't know whether we talked about it on the air. I don't think so. All right, you figure it out, we'll do it. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[31:00] Hey Dave and Dave. Um it's uh it's Paul in Seattle. Oh, how are you doing? Not too bad, are you? Good way well, do well.
+
+[31:11] Um, so I had a question about um some of the recipes and liquid intelligence. Oh, okay. I've been making some I well wanting to make some of the bitters and the coffee rum recipe. Um the ones that require like heating the whipper. Right?
+
+[31:26] But uh my only EC is a therma whip, like the insulated one. Oh, yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, I was wondering if you did any like testing with the insulated whipper and um how that like affected any of the heating or the simmering times. Yeah, uh I uh. So the people, for those of you that don't know, so the the EC, the whipped cream maker, they have a bunch of different ones.
+
+[31:50] So like the on the basic level, you have your uh half liter and your liter stainless steel whippers, and then they make what's called uh a thermal whip, and a thermal whip is is it's like a thermos whipper. And the idea of the thermal whip is that you can put a hot thing, so like when you're using one of these things in service and you want to keep a sauce warm in the EC, typically you'll have to put it into a Bain Marie of water to keep it warm, right? Or cold. Uh with this, it's more like a thermos. So you when you use a thermo whip, you either fill it with ice water or you fill it with boiling water, then dump that out, and then fill it either with the cold water, cold, cold mix or hot mix of your choice, seal it, and it stays warmer and or colder for for a lot longer.
+
+[32:41] That's the idea of the thermal whip. Um the reason I never got into them is A, they're a lot more money. B, they're a lot bigger. So like they're not taller, they're a little bit taller than a half liter whipper, but they're a lot wider because they're insulated like a like a thermos. Uh but I don't think that there's any effective way to do heating inside of it just because I don't think there's any effective way to do heating in inside of it.
+
+[33:09] Um I'm trying to think like I mean, I can think of ways to modify it. It would be super not cool because you would mess with it. I wonder whether EC would sell you the like a replacement, because you know the tops are completely interchangeable. Did you know that? Yeah.
+
+[33:24] Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder whether they would sell you like as a replacement if you said you lost it, just like the half liter bottom. And then like do it that way. Because it's like the tops are totally interchangeable, but there's I don't think there's any effective way you're gonna heat the uh the inside of that stuff, because its whole point is that you can't do that.
+
+[33:45] Yeah, I I thought about looking for uh an extra bottom that wasn't insulated on eBay or something, but they don't really seem to sell like just the bottoms. There's not really a market for that. I mean, I wonder whether EC like EC USA would sell it to you or EC North America, whether they would sell it to you or not. Um that is a good idea. Yeah.
+
+[34:03] Or like, you know, Craigslist or restaurants find someone who like lost their top and is like just wants to get rid of um the the bottom, you know what I mean? Uh-huh. But yeah, you're gonna have a tough time heating. I mean, it's a good piece of equipment, but it does, you know, it's like it it's like a thermos. So it like it exactly does not want you to be able to apply heat to the outside and warm up the inside.
+
+[34:26] Yeah. And you don't, you know, and you don't want to drill a hole in the top of your uh EC and like you know, thread a heater cartridge into it with a thermocouple and then pray that it you know it's leak proof and then plug it in. You know, at least I don't want to do that, and I definitely don't want to recommend that you do that. You know what I mean? Well, if you don't want to do that, that that kind of says something.
+
+[34:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. If I'm not if I'm not willing to do it even for myself. Now I have built my own plastic um EC tops for carbonation tests. I have done that.
+
+[35:01] Uh, you know, so like you find you can find these old um, you can make like a what you here's what you have to do. It's a pain in the butt. What you do is is you take all the parts off of the EC. In fact, I bought uh EC used to make a plastic topped, like non-professional whipped cream maker that has the same threads as their as their current one. And I modified that by like drilling and adding pieces of Bondo and like printed parts, and then I cast that in urethane rubber, like flexible urethane rubber, and then bought food grade rigid urethane and cast a bunch of tops.
+
+[35:40] And they they worked great, but I mean I don't mean are they you know safe? I mean, they don't go through the safety testing that EC's real stuff goes through. Now I wasn't using high pressure with that because I wasn't putting cartridges on. I was I was carving from tanks with it. So I knew the pressure was never gonna go above a hundred PSI, so I was never gonna have a situation like that uh French blogger that was killed by a part flying off of her, you know, um imitation whipper.
+
+[36:08] You know what I mean? Um but it's you know, after you have someone go outside of the bounds like that and kill herself, you're like loath to make recommendations to people to modify equipment that's under pressure, if you know what I mean. Yeah, that is fair. Well, the uh the idea to um to reach out to uh EC themselves is uh is a good one. I may try that.
+
+[36:28] Yeah, I mean look, here's the thing, right? Their main business is to make money off of the chargers anyway. So like they, you know, maybe they're willing to sell you the bottom thing, but like the the only issue like as a manufacturer that Nastasi will attest to this, is if it's outside of what they can normally do, nobody wants to go out of their way unless they really feel like they like you. Right, Sus? Yeah, yeah, nobody wants to go out of their way because everyone's got a workflow, and if you're if it's within their workflow, they're like, sure, because they can just press a button and make it happen.
+
+[36:58] If it's outside of their workflow, they have to really like you. Story of my life. What outside of the workflow or workflow. Anyway, good luck with it. Let us know what happens.
+
+[37:09] Tell them it depends. Like most of the people I know who work there have like retired or moved on, so I can't even like give you someone to pester and say that we sent you. You know what I mean? But um, you know, it used to be I'd be like, tell them that Dave says Rick aggressus to sell you that stuff. But like I can't, you know, he's uh he's retired, so I don't know what to do for you.
+
+[37:29] Well, I'll see if I can get you somebody to uh forward future people to. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Let us know what happens. Alright, all right.
+
+[37:37] Uh take a quick break. Quick break, back more cooking issues. Think about what it takes to swim a coastline longer than the entire eastern seaboard and leap tall waterfalls in a single bound. What does it take to survive 200 feet deep in icy salt water? What would you be made of?
+
+[38:06] Wild Alaska seafood is made of tight muscle mass, long chain omega-3s, and incredible micronutrients. It matters where your food comes from. Experience the flavor of the fittest in every bite and enjoy food the way nature intended. Alaska seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable.
+
+[38:27] Ask for Alaska on the menu, grocery store, or smart device. For more information, visit Wild Alaska Seafood.com. You know what I like to taste in every bite of seafood, Dave? I like to taste. I like to taste young people eager for money risking their lives for the high pay of fishing off of the coast of Alaska and getting killed on the regular.
+
+[38:54] I thought I read ads poorly. Oh man, that's so harsh. Why do you mean mean? Because I really I was like, okay, there's another person that's not so good at it. No, you're still the worst.
+
+[39:04] Yeah, it is. Oh, I am the worst. Oh. Can you taste the falling off the boat and drowning, Dave? Can you taste it?
+
+[39:13] I can. Mm-hmm. Moving right along. Yeah. Uh, okay.
+
+[39:21] So uh this is from you said I didn't answer this. All right. So Devin in Seattle writes in um for years I've been wanting to create a juice production and distribution business directed towards bars, restaurants, hotels in my city. And recently the uh Times presented itself to move forward on this idea. That is until yesterday when the Department of Agriculture and the FDA told me that raw juice, the same juice that we make and use in bars every day can only be sold direct to customer and wholesale juice must be pasteurized.
+
+[39:45] So here's my question. Instead of giving up because I hate pasteurized juice, you're taking the FD. Oh no, we did say this. Remember Johnson to the face. And you were like, oh.
+
+[39:53] What? Remember? Yes. I remember this. We answer this.
+
+[39:57] Remember, I said take the FDA's Johnson to the face, which is directly reading this, and you're like, family show. Yeah. You don't remember this? Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Nah.
+
+[40:05] I remember. Dave, you're like one of 30, so you know it's all a blur. All right. Well, so we already answered Devin's question. And the answer is is that you don't know.
+
+[40:15] Johnson to the face. Johnson in the face. No, you don't have to post pasteurize citrus if you get um, if you get the state, like a uh you buy citrus fruit that specifically says it was picked off the trees and not picked up off the ground. Then you just have to surface pasteurize, uh not sorry, surface sanitize your uh fruit skins, and then you can juice and sell as long as the sale uh as long as it has a note on it saying, you know, not pasteurized may kill you. Uh or the other solution, which everyone recommends, is uh just don't ask people what they're using it for, and you can sell it to them.
+
+[40:50] If they if they buy it as a retail customer, then you don't have to worry about it. All right. So uh Eric Nystrom writes in my wife and I are going on a restrictive elimination diet for autoimmune disease reasons. Read, not by choice. Um that's a thing now.
+
+[41:05] People do this a lot. You ever you know people who've done this, Nastasia? No. Where you get rid of everything and then add back to see when you have problems. Yeah.
+
+[41:12] Previously on cooking issues, you talked about it. Sounds so good. Previously on cooking issues. It sounds like previously on cooking issues. I always hate that in TV shows, though, because now on Netflix, you've just seen the damn thing.
+
+[41:23] You've just seen it. You don't need to tell me what I previously saw. Because it was like five minutes. Now you can. Yeah, but what if it was like yesterday or the day before that?
+
+[41:31] Well, most of us, Dave, can remember a show we saw yesterday. Boom. You know, most of us have a lot of things going on, Dave. Oh, yeah, because that's my problem, not having a lot going on. Yeah.
+
+[41:41] Yeah. Previously on cooking issues. You talked about pressure cooking garlic to make it super mellow, creamy, and de breathalized. So I tried some in my Instapot, and it came out okay, but had a bitter ground note. You have a bitter ground note, Nastasia.
+
+[41:53] I was waiting for that the whole day. I underlined it, underlined bitter ground note. But still uh made me excited to try uh some base sauces on it in uh lieu of cream or cheese alternatives. By the way, oh, in lieu of cream or milk, uh, because you're getting rid of dairy. Crap.
+
+[42:08] I was gonna say cook it in dairy, because that's what we used to do. We would pressure cook garlic in milk. Maybe they could make ashwaganda cheese. Uh no, it's the milk that's the problem. Almond, what about almond milk?
+
+[42:21] I wonder I wonder whether almond milk would uh would help get rid of the bitterness, but it's expensive the same way that regular milk does. Huh. See, my guess is is that with with the garlic when you're doing it, like the my guess is that some of those bitter notes get attracted to and immobilized by the casein in the same way that tannins do in tea. But I don't know. I just knew from experience that if you cooked in milk that the uh the milk A would congeal hard in the pressure cooker with the garlic and you'd get like this weird ugly stuff, you'd blend it back.
+
+[42:52] But I knew that it would take away some of that earthiness. But I wonder whether other protein-based things would do the same thing. Uh so I don't know. Maybe someone in the chat room has some ideas on that. I don't know.
+
+[43:03] Uh question, what are your favorite pressure cooked garlic bases based sauces? Anything uh any other things worth pressure cooking for sauce? Onions, like you can make like a really good uh thick onion-based sauce, and you could use a boat ton of onions because in fact, Nils and I used to make an onion ice cream. Do you ever have the onion ice cream sauce? Yeah, I remember that.
+
+[43:22] Did you like it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was a like you literally pressure cook onions and then you blend them into an ice cream, make it ice cream base with all these onions, and it's still like a little bit meaty sulfury, but like most of that's gone and it's sweet and kind of brown and nutty, and it's fantastic. And you can use vast quantities of uh onions because it goes really um becomes really sweet.
+
+[43:45] In fact, uh, it's so sweet that you let you l you know knock down a lot of the flavors. So, like like uh my favorite way to do the French onion soup is to double it. So I'll do like a like a huge amount of pressure cooked onions, and then I'll sweat traditional sweat some more onions to get some more of the classic flavor in and do like a a double onion. Um mustard seed is good in a pressure cooker, but uh I've had bad luck with it recently. It's been bitter.
+
+[44:10] I don't know why. For years, I remember I used to do pressure cooked mustard seed all the time. I don't know whether my palate's changed or whether I just lost my touch. Maybe I've just lost my touch. What do you think, Stas?
+
+[44:19] Losing your edge. Lost my touch. Yep. No touch left. No touch left.
+
+[44:24] No skills. Uh just for reference, we can't eat, but hopefully only temporarily. Grains, seeds, and nuts. Ooh, there goes uh almond milk. There goes life.
+
+[44:34] Grains, seeds, and nuts. That's my whole life. Grains, seeds, nuts. Every seed? Grains, seeds, nuts, yeah.
+
+[44:45] What does that leave left? So there's no rice, no corn, no wheat, no barley. I mean, seeds, no beans. Right? Because that's a seed.
+
+[44:59] They both have this autoimmune. No, no, no, no. They're going on, they're going temporarily getting rid of everything and adding back to see whether an item of their diet. When you were a vegan, uh when I was a raw vegan was the angriest Nastasi's ever seen me. And believe me, she seen me very, very angry.
+
+[45:16] Why were you a raw vegan? I lost a bet on this radio show, but it was when uh Jackie Molecules was uh in the booth. But yeah. The bet was that, and I'm pretty sure that they cheated, but the bet was that that no one could make uh a piece of raw chocolate that I thought tasted like chocolate. And someone gave me something and said, listen, I'm not gonna argue about whether or not the producer's a liar or not.
+
+[45:37] This tastes like chocolate. I've lost the bet. I'm I'm raw vegan for a week. Do you know who's even madder than I was? Your wife?
+
+[45:44] My toilet. My toilet's like, what are you doing? What's going on? You know what I mean? It's like, remember when we had uh what's his name who wrote uh catching fire and he was like making fun of uh raw vegans.
+
+[45:58] He's like, it's not possible to get enough nutrition. That's why they have to eat constantly if you're a raw vegan because your body just can't absorb it. Yeah, that was pretty funny. Anyway, also no dairy, and here's your favorite. We're going uh we're going with the Patriots on this.
+
+[46:11] No nightshades, i.e., no tomatoes and no potatoes, no solanaceae. Spin it in. The old Tom Brady diet. Yeah, so like basically, Eric, what can you eat? Kale?
+
+[46:23] Like, what else is there? Like, you know leaves. So basically, they can only eat leaves. Right? What else is there?
+
+[46:31] Bulbs and leaves. Bulbs and leaves. That's why you're asking about onions and garlic, right? Because they're alliums. You got bulbs and bulbs and leaves, but not leaves as well.
+
+[46:41] You don't really eat solecey leaves anyway. Anyway, if anyone in the uh in the I have to think more about this. Clearly, I did not, even though it's this question's been on the books for weeks. I clearly have not thought enough about it, right? I need to think about it because I didn't know if someone's done this diet before, and they could Google what they've done.
+
+[46:58] So meats are okay, right? Looks like meats are okay. I would do like onion pureees, but the problem is you can't bolster it with anything creamy because you have no dairy and you have no nuts. So coconut milk. You could do coconut milk or coconut cream, like a garlic thing as a saucepan.
+
+[47:14] That would be good, right? Would also make a good uh ice cream. So, like a good, like uh coconut coconut milk slash coconut you know, cream makes amazing ice cream. So you can do coconut products along with the pressure cooked alliums, get some rich richness, put some uh along and then put that back in. And I guess all the only thing you can eat is steak, right?
+
+[47:35] Or pork. That's rough. I hope you're off that thing soon, Eric. Seriously. Yeah, poor guy.
+
+[47:40] Yeah. So we have a uh a listener. Okay, I gotta get this right because I'm gonna do it wrong. It's Marcel Masso, right? Not Marcel Marceau, everyone's favorite French mime, if there is such a thing as a favorite mime.
+
+[47:53] Are you also are you a mime hater, Dave? I I guess I'm ambivalent, they're not really a part of my day-to-day. You're mime mime bivalent? Sure. Like a good mime, when I was a kid, like the mimes to beat were Mominchance, right?
+
+[48:06] So Mominchance was the mime troop that everybody liked. And if you said everybody, how do people what? Uh Momenschance was a thing when I was a kid, you know. So like the thing was When were you a kid? 70s.
+
+[48:17] So, like that if someone said to you, if someone said to you, do you like mimes? You're like, no, no, nobody likes mimes. In fact, like one of my high school band name uh concepts was mime aside, right? But but they're like, What about Mominchants? You like Momman Shants, don't you?
+
+[48:33] Like, well, I don't consider that, I don't consider that miming. They're like, they are mimes. Anyway, so go back like elevated miming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel that there is like in in America, or at least there used to be a big cultural pres prejudice against mimes.
+
+[48:46] Like, whenever there's a mime in a TV show, it's like you always expect someone to come do something terrible to the mime and then get a big laugh out of how someone has brutalized the mime. Am I wrong about this? No, I think that's right. Yeah, anyway. So this is Marcel Masso, not Marcel Marceau, the famous French mime.
+
+[49:04] Back to the question. So the question? I haven't written it yet. Read it yet. Marcel from the Hudson, oh, you're just being a jerk.
+
+[49:12] Uh now you're being a jerk. All right. Running from the Hudson Valley. What is the cheapest DIY carbonation setup, i.e., the best place to order parts? The best place to order parts is from Mark Powers in Guntersville, Alabama.
+
+[49:24] You know, I have somewhere, I my brother in law just bought it. I should repost or can you post things, Dave? On the radio show page? What on the internet? Yeah, thing things can be posted on the internet.
+
+[49:36] But is that something we as a web as a website do? Sure. If I gave a list of parts to buy from Mark Powers, you could post a list of parts. Absolutely. All right.
+
+[49:45] So Marcel, yeah, I'll post that list of parts. The only things you you the issue with them is are you gonna order the tank from them or not? Right? And you have to figure out whether you want the full 20-pound tank in your house, which is what I recommend, uh, or if you need a smaller thing because you're gonna put it under underneath the cabinet. The other thing you can't get from Mark Powers is um you can't get the uh the carbonator cast, but you can get them on on Amazon.
+
+[50:08] And the whole rig, it you're gonna spend a little more than you would if you bought stuff like let's say a soda screen, but your cost of use is basically nothing because depending on where you live, and you're in Hudson Valley, but I haven't priced it there, like a 20-pound refill on CO2 is gonna cost you like 17, 20 bucks, something like this, and it's gonna do wait for it, between two and four hundred gallons of seltzer. So it's a real low cost of use. So that's what I recommend doing. And and um I'll try to remember to bring the parts list in for next week, Dave, and we'll put it up on the on the net there. Two.
+
+[50:38] I know that pectin and certain sediments uh are an issue with carbonation, but are all sediments an issue? For example, certain gingery soda brands have a lot of sediment, and certain uh gingery sodas also have crappy carbonation. You know what I mean? So you right, Stas, you've seen this happen. Or like, have you ever carbonated or had like a like a beer that you've made or or fermented and like this and the sediments on the bottom, and then when you when you open it, it starts overflowing your bottle and pouring all over the sink.
+
+[51:07] That's because like a nucleation site's a nucleation site. That's all there is to it. The only way to get around that that is to have lower levels of carbonation such that it's not going to overfoam or a very low alcohol level and other like a low level of other things that foam so that when it does bubble out a lot, it doesn't build up enough of a foam to overflow your bottle or your or your glass uh that quickly. Uh so that's that's what I'm gonna say about that. Now look, very small amounts of sediment that actually make it cloudy but don't provide a lot of nucleation sites, aren't going to be that much of a problem.
+
+[51:35] So I don't worry about like hyper hyperclarity, but you know, anything that has chunks enough that are big enough to form nucleation sites are gonna be a problem. And that's anything like way small, all the way down to like microscopic fibers. But if it's smaller than that, uh you should be fine. All right, we gotta go. I should look up what the smallest uh thing that can be a nucleation site is next week.
+
+[51:57] Well, we got we haven't even finished this question. Well, we gotta go. All right, all right. So I'll get to questions three and four, Marcel, next time. And can I say one thing on the way out?
+
+[52:06] One thing. All right, Jay, who wrote in about his no no no no no no wait. No, Jay who wrote in about his kiobasa problem, we said it was probably that he was using fresh garlic, and that was the problem. Guess what? We were right!
+
+[52:18] Boom! Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[52:39] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[53:05] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. With Bob's Red Mill, you're not just getting quality, you're getting flavor-packed, healthy food that tastes great. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to learn more and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:30] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. No uh, no uh nothing on the Dave's not giving me anything today. That's fine. I like it. I I don't always.
+
+[0:45] Okay. We got Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? Uh oh, thank you, everybody. How you doing, Dave?
+
+[0:50] I'm good. How about you? Alright, you have a good week? Yeah. Weekend.
+
+[0:53] By the way, uh, next week, no show. I'm in I'm in China. I'm in China again. We're on break, too, so that's convenient. Oh, nice.
+
+[1:01] Working on the next, the next Booker and Dax product, which I cannot tell you about because I cannot possibly kill all three people that are listening to this. Uh we would stop you. Yeah, well, they'd have to go find them. Uh got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Sas?
+
+[1:14] Good. How's your uh how's your week been? Fine. Fine. Good.
+
+[1:18] Tell us about your flight. In a minute. In a minute. If we look, I feel we should actually have a lot of things to talk about today. So for those of you that don't know, LaGuardia Airport is nice airport to fly into, even though it's horrific and cramped and terrible, because once you get in, you are close to being back into Manhattan.
+
+[1:35] You're not like in the middle of nowhere. Problem is, as I've said many times, if someone even spits at the runway in LaGuardia, they shut that thing down. So, like I'm flying back from Chicago yesterday, and I was doing something for Heaven Hill distilleries. I've I'm in Chicago, and I'm like, I'm gonna get on the 6 a.m. because I knew it was raining.
+
+[1:52] I'm gonna get on the 6 a.m. flight. The 6 a.m. flight. Because I know that if they let one plane in, they're gonna let the 6 a.m.
+
+[1:57] plane in. So we take off, and then we get over, and all of a sudden, like around like eight, right before we're about to land, a thunderstorm moves in over New York, right? And so what do these chumps do? They circle LaGuardia. And by the way, air traffic controllers.
+
+[2:13] If I have anyone out there as an air traffic controller, you are a sadistic lot. You were sadistic son of a guns out there. Have a circling in the cloud in the rainstorm, just like waiting because again, like if you remember Mike Pence, like you know, the airplane like looks at the runway sideways and it skids off into the into the water, right? So we're sitting there like an hour, like going around getting spent. Of course, they're not saying squat.
+
+[2:40] Then they're like, hey, uh, well, they wouldn't let us divert to JFK. They wouldn't let us divert to Newark. So we're going to Philadelphia. Goodbye. And so we like fly fly low through the clouds to Philadelphia.
+
+[2:55] Because you were losing gas. We're losing, we're out of gas. Literally, as we land, I'm gonna get diehard two situation. As we land, my wife, by the way, I hate flying. As we land, my wife texts me, she's like, she's like, good news, it's starting to clear up in New York.
+
+[3:07] I'm like, so we have to sit on the ground and wait to refuel, and then we get delayed even more because obviously, because they had shut LGA, so they had to reopen it later, and then we had to get a new slot. So I thought I was gonna get a whole work day done on the bar yesterday, and instead I spent it in the fabulous travels. We had to get off because they no longer knew who was on the airplane because they let some people off, but didn't take down their information, so everyone had to leave the plane. It sounds like standard TSA operating procedure, yeah. Yeah, you all have to leave the plane and then come back right back on.
+
+[3:38] We're like, what? They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Trust me. Yeah, so we uh yeah, anyway. Dave, I also hate flying, and I got my doctor to prescribe me Larazopam.
+
+[3:46] What is that? It's like uh I think it's similar to like Xanax. Yeah, I used to take I used to take that stuff, um, and then I somehow got myself off of it. But I'm thinking of doing is just I'm flying to China on Monday, and the worst is like if it's a one-hour flight, although it can turn into a three-hour flight if you're, you know, by mistake. But if it's like a one-hour flight, you're like, or two hour flight, you're like, hey, I'm gonna take it for the whole time because whatever, like how bad can it be?
+
+[4:12] I can I can just sit there and and have that awful fear sweat for like a couple of hours, and I know it's gonna be over one way or the other. I know it's a few years ago. It's gonna be ground because it's a smaller plane, probably if it's only an hour or two hour flight. Yeah, but but when you're in when you're flying to China and you have conceivably another 14 hours, right? Your mind is like, this could last 14 hours.
+
+[4:34] You know what I mean? It's like and just being, and also, you know, if you're in the middle of the damn plane and you have no windows, you Nastasi, you hate being in the middle of the plane with no windows because even just being able to see outside, you're like, okay, I can see at least that we're on fire and we're going down. At least I know. You know what I mean? When you're sealed in that tube, it's like, ah, yeah.
+
+[4:52] Anyway, uh, we have on the show today special guest. My segue. Yes, special guest, uh, talking about his new book. We have what's not new ish, new ish, was newer when you were supposed to come on originally. Yeah.
+
+[5:04] Uh James Brichion. I'm told that that's the way that he likes to pronounce it, although it could be pronounced any one of eight different ways. His new book, Flavor Matrix, and uh you're also at the Institute for Culinary Education. What's your title over there? Director of Culinary Research.
+
+[5:18] Director of Director of the Yeah. There you go, there you go. There you go. So how are you doing, James? Excellent.
+
+[5:24] All right, so call in all of your flavor matrix flavor pairing questions to James at 718497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And I want you to tell us a little bit about why don't you give people like the 30-second pitch on the book here? Um, so been studying the science of flavor for a really long time. The whole project began uh back at ICE when we were working with IBM on the Chef Watson project, and we started to get into flavor pairing theory.
+
+[5:49] Tell them what Watson is in case they don't know. Um, so if anyone missed Chef Watson, um, it is we worked with IBM, uh, their Watson computing system to study chemical compounds in foods and find matches between ingredients based on the chemical compounds that create flavor in food. So kind of a new way to look at putting ingredients together. Let me ask you a question. Why'd they give it a dude's name?
+
+[6:13] Seriously. I I was told actually that Watson was a woman. Then why like I'm sorry, there are some gender neutral names. They could they could have gone Pat. They could have gone Pat.
+
+[6:23] It's Pat. It's Pat. And then, like, what is Pat? I don't know. I mean, that would have been amazing, right?
+
+[6:28] And then they could have glued that Pat face on it. The voices that Watson uses when uh he's being a prick to those people in the airplane hangar, is a dude's voice. Yeah. It's very 2001 space odyssey kind of a thing. Same on Jeopardy.
+
+[6:43] Yeah, and and when he's talking crap about the coffee maker in that other thing, he's using a dude's voice and making like it's it. I think he was, I think he was a little saucy with the coffee maker, and that's why she's not talking to him. But my point is, why a dude? That seems like, you know, we should work on that. Next time you're with them, they should just, you know what?
+
+[7:01] I know it's actually just a computer and not it not a human being, so they could just, you know, rename it or come out that the next gen should definitely be a woman. I think. I never I never spoke. I it it was we walked in and opened up a laptop, and we're like, okay, there's Watson. We never there was no uh fancy UI, there was no uh conversations with Watson, it was a laptop.
+
+[7:19] IBM, if you're out there, next gen woman. Or at least gender neutral. I'm okay with gender neutral. Taylor. Taylor, oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:27] Although to everyone now, Taylor's Taylor Swift, right? Is it? I don't know. Are you thinking about millions? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[7:33] Oh, oh, I never saw I never seen the show. It's a good show. I have a really good story about the show that I'm not allowed to tell you. Uh did we tell that on error? I don't think we told that in a yeah.
+
+[7:42] What is it? Mine? Well, I can't tell you. What's the story? I love it started with I'm not allowed to tell you, and then he's he's launching straight into it from there.
+
+[7:49] Uh let's put it this way He's so conflicted. Like, it got part of the No, I won't say anything about it, but like one of the episodes got had like a Me Too moment where they had to get like a Christopher Plummer style reshoot on it, and uh because they had to they had to uh remove one of the characters and add somebody else in. And I really think that what they should do, first of all, I think in a show about like billionaires, they should just admit if you're watching a show about people who are rancid, power, you know, hungry like billionaires, why should you get pissed off when the people who are actually in it are rough too? I mean, that's what you kind of want out of it, no? But they they did the reshoot.
+
+[8:26] I think in general they should just not reshoot and just take Christopher Plummer's face and then no matter who it is, just paste his face over it as like a as a thing. What do you think? Yeah, Christopher Plummer. All right. So 30 second pitch on the book.
+
+[8:38] 30 second pitch on the book. Boy, we're back to Watson. Sorry, sorry. Yeah. So Watson is a is a an A an AI program that takes uh big data, crunches it, and then makes uh predictions in your case about food, but it could be about whether or not you need to replace an engine or how much water you need to add to your crops in XYZ field or Yada or Yada or make it make Yada, yada Yada and Yada.
+
+[8:59] Um so that got me kind of into this subject, but the book was written without any use of Watson. Uh we spent all of our time in the volatile compounds and food database, the VCF database that lists every aromatic compound in the majority of ingredients on Earth, and those are all of the chemicals that are responsible for flavor in food. Now, who owns that? Uh it is, I mean it's it's a paid subscription database. Yeah, how much that costs?
+
+[9:27] Like lots. Yeah. Um, you know, we got into, I mean, you know how much money there is in book writing, right? Oh, socket change. Yeah.
+
+[9:36] Um, so spent about two years in the VCF creating spreadsheets, finding the matches. Um, they do actually have a nice little compare and uh search tool. And we we basically adapted the you know, the wine or beer or coffee flavor wheel, like tasting wheel, and adapted it to food. And then we created data points for every aroma in 58 of the most common ingredients uh or 58 ingredient categories, which cover about 110 total ingredients. Uh and then we also listed out for the people who really want to dig into the science and get nerdy the top three aroma compounds in each ingredient, the flavors they present.
+
+[10:13] So it's hopefully for you know people who start digging into it, it's a new way to think about flavor and combining ingredients. And so just so people people who haven't seen the book, the format is an introduction of like, you know, how you got into this stuff, and then just here are these ingredients, the wheels for those ingredients, and then a recipe that has the main ingredient, and then with other adjuncts that are pulled off of the wheel, and then at the end, kind of a little more hear, you know, a little more in-depth on some of the actual things, right? So it's like just what you need to know to figure out why I'm doing this, the stuff, and then some more explanation at the end. That's the basic layout, right? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[10:54] So if you want to just hit it up for some ideas about, hey, I got a boatload of zucchini in my CSA and I want to do something different with zucchini, I want to start changing up some recipes, flip up into the zucchini pairing wheel, you'll see which flavors pair best with zucchini and start picking out ingredients. Zucchini pairs best with the garbage can. You don't like zucchini? Zucchini is a garbage product. Here's the thing, zucchini is good.
+
+[11:20] Here's what zucchini is good for. If you core it and therefore take out all of that like moisture-inducing nonsense and stuff it with meat, that tastes good. If you take zucchini and you press the press the hell out of it so it doesn't turn into a greasy, sopping mess of nightmare, and then somehow quickly cook it, fine. Uh it's not even a good vehicle for dip because it's too freaking spongy. You'd always, always rather have a cucumber than a freaking zucchini stick in a dip situation 100% of the time.
+
+[11:51] What yeah, why would it ever be in a dip situation? People do it, people do it, right? And then, like uh the reason zucchinis exist as a product at all is zucchini bread is delicious, where it's really just it's just a filler. It's fiber. It's just fire.
+
+[12:05] I mean, it's it is from like from a flavor perspective, it's extraordinarily low on the list. And the other reason it exists is uh squash blossoms. Because Florida Calabasa, let's face it, is awesome. Absolutely. And for those of you that don't know, uh, and I'm sure that's a lot of people, is that if you just take so the the the the group of the group of things that includes pumpkin squash, cucumber, zucchini is the cucurbits, right?
+
+[12:34] And they all have these kind of big showy papery flowers that look like squash blossoms, but they have very different tastes. So like some uh like pumpkin blossoms, for instance. I thought, well, I could use these as squash blossoms because you want to get rid of a lot of the extra uh blossoms because you don't want you know you don't want too many pumpkins on your vine. Anyways, they taste terrible. Like you need to get like good ones, like the varietal's important.
+
+[12:57] Nastasia is a conycente of squash blossoms. Wow. Yeah. It's a true story. It is a true story.
+
+[13:04] So anyway, so uh go ahead, zucchini. You were saying. Um just as a an example of something you're gonna have a boatload of in your CSA because it's garbage grows like crazy. Right, exactly. But um, so you can just flip over, flip open, you can look at the graphic and go, oh, here are the best things that go with zucchini.
+
+[13:20] Or if you want to really dig into him, like I gotta figure out a way to use this, you can go back, look up the compounds that create the little bit of flavor there is actually in zucchini. Um, and then you know, start attacking it that way to try to find the best matches or try to get creative with it. Uh, you know, books have been out for just over a month now. I'm hearing from a ton of mixologists, people who are really kind of you know digging in and using it to get creative with cocktails, which is which has been really cool. Yes, we're the root we're the worst group of people in the world.
+
+[13:49] No, I'm kidding. I'm not I'm uh I I love I love people who sling drinks. Anyway, so the uh obviously we're opening a new bar. By the way, I can now say it didn't come out, but people have leaked it. Uh if you want to know what we're doing, it was leaked for some reason to punch, so you can look it up.
+
+[14:05] Anyways. Uh you want to take a call? Well, one second. So we'll take we'll take a call. We'll take a call, but what I here's here's the I have a couple of minor bones that not bones to pick, but we're gonna we're gonna hash some stuff out, you and I, James.
+
+[14:19] And then after that, we have a more general uh hash out that I think is gonna be uh kind of like fun for our crew. But caller, we'll take the caller first, caller you're on the air. Oh yeah, hello. This is uh Quinn actually calling in again. Hey, how you doing from uh Vancouver Island?
+
+[14:37] Yeah. Yeah. Uh I'm doing good. Uh I came up with a question. I actually had a a quick answer to a previous week's question I thought I'd call in.
+
+[14:47] So what what would you like first? The question or the answer? Uh I will take question first and then answer. Okay, so my question was uh uh I think I'm gonna definitely get this book, but I'm curious, has there been any official studies that are analyzing the complexity of different ingredient groups? Like obviously there's the big compound, but I would love to settle a bit between me and my brother, which is more complex, wine or tea?
+
+[15:20] Oh, this is an excellent question, and I'm gonna let James go and then I'm gonna argue with him. Go. Um, so there is a lot, and I mean complexity, you can kind of look at that a couple different ways, but I mean the the simplest way would just be to quantify the number of different aromatic compounds that make up each ingredient. Uh that's in the VCF, that's exactly what you're going to get. You you get a full list of uh the compounds that have been identified through uh most of this data in the VCF comes from academic papers.
+
+[15:48] So it's, you know, uh, there's been a gas chromatography, you know, study done on kind of general tea or general wine. Um, there's not a lot on wine because it changes year to year to year, so it's hard to, it's really hard to kind of collect that data and a lot of proprietary people have that, like in-house, like everyone has their own. And you can get some kind of generals on variety. Like, we did a thing for Food and Wine magazine on their wine issue about building recipes based off of compounds in specific wines, and you can get sort of the generals of the varietals. Like what the cat pea aroma is, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[16:21] Yeah. Exactly. Um, but to I would have to, I would have to check the numbers. Uh I don't know off the top of my head, I believe that tea is higher than wine in the number of compounds. All right, here's where, yeah, here's where I think this is problematic, right?
+
+[16:34] So everyone, everyone wants to say that whatever product they're hawking at the time is the most complicated, or like it goes back to the we, you know, like the people who say we have the most vitamin C, we have the most number of compounds, the most, the most polyphenols, we have the most, you know, it's and the thing is is that at the end of the day, complexity it doesn't boil down to how many different compounds are are in something because to be honest, a lot of things can be there in minute quantities. It don't have a huge flavor impact. And also, you know, most compounds have on the order of less than 10 things in them that provide the majority of the aroma impact, uh the volatile impact that something is going to have. So, you know, to me, I think rather than looking at the chemical signature of something to see how complicated it is, look at how people have treated it over the years. So like people tend to focus on simple ingredients with wide ranges of flavor, things like tea with you know, one ingredient, two with water.
+
+[17:39] Uh, you know, coffee, yeah, coffee, cocaine, wine. Why? Because they are complicated, right? And they repay study. And so like actual complexity in terms of what your mind and tongue uh see has as much to do with the scholarship behind it and how much people pay attention to it.
+
+[17:58] Fifty years ago there was not nearly the vocabulary on coffee even among professionals that there is now. And the reason is is that kind of the human beings hadn't built up the kind of scholarship. So we sense complexity in coffee that the average even professional I think wouldn't have sensed 50 years ago. And it's because we've developed a language to be able to do it. So complexity is somewhat in the eye of the taster I think.
+
+[18:24] Yeah absolutely I think you know you go to a professional you know or taste the wine with a professional you take a sip and then you you might sense certain things and then they tell you oh hey you know cucumber blackberry these things you know black pepper these things are here and then you take another sip and you're like oh yeah yeah okay now you know once once you're aware to start searching for these you know particular aromas or flavors in something and then they absolutely become you know easier to find. Yeah and I think what's what's really interesting what is fun is when you not you but one as uh kind of a lay taster like tastes something and then you later read something that back that backs you up that is kind of nice. You know what I mean when you're like yes there is this compound you're like I knew I I knew I was right I knew it. All right so what's your now what's your answer Gwyn oh well um I remember a few weeks you know someone called in about making a um fruit based katsuboshi. Yes.
+
+[19:19] And I'm thinking, I think a good way to do that is since it seems like they were skewing more toward a sweet application or cocktail. Right. Uh instead of doing a protein-based gel, what if you combined dry second? Like apple pie, apple. Right.
+
+[19:41] And then maybe reinforce with a little rice flour, and then even stick all that into like even a synthetic sausage casing so it doesn't just fall apart and then ferment that. Nastasia has referred to me as a synthetic sausage casing on many occasions. Yeah, no, you'd try it. I mean, like also, uh family show. Also, uh, I will say that someone else mentioned, which I have also noticed, is that people inoculate dried fruits, not hyper-dried fruits, but like part dried or semi-dried fruits, specifically things like Japanese persimmon or Korean persimmon, inoculate them with mold, and they do when you once you trim off the mold, have a different flavor.
+
+[20:22] I've actually noticed this by accident because I let some persimmons go moldy and I was like, I'm not gonna waste them. So I trimmed them off and and and uh and had them. So I think if we can maybe try that, Quinn, or I think some of these mold inoculations on larger format dried fruits, not like thinner ones, but larger format dried fruits, like bleded persimmons or whatnot to inoculate them with mold. You can get some you know, my reaction to the collar was as you said, like I think he wanted more uh uh what you cut off a second. Yeah, I think he wanted more sweet stuff, and so like on the savory side, that stuff's all about protein breakdown products.
+
+[20:58] It's a hundred percent about protein breakdown products, and and um but but not in the sweet side. Breakdown starches, it does create sugars, like in the case of mirroring. Right, but like mirin ha also has a a savory hit to it that I don't actually know where it comes from. But Mirin has a savory, savory hit to it. But when I think katsobushi, I'm thinking 100% like broke pre protein breakdown, right?
+
+[21:26] When I think of cheese, for instance, whenever I'm tasting something old-ish, I'm always tasting for it's all breakdown products situation. So when you taste a cheese, right, like certain cheeses I can taste and know they're full fat because like fat breakdown, like like like lipid lipid oxidation products make my tongue like explode. Like uh if you ever had your taste bud like pop out, it looks like a little mushroom cloud on the on the tip of your tongue. Ever haven't used nostasia? It's painful, haven't you, James?
+
+[21:56] And I know. Yeah, anyway, so like full fat, full fat H cheeses, like I love them, I eat them, but like they cause this immense pain on my tongue because my taste buds will like pop. I'm like semi-sensitive to them. Blowing your taste buds. Blowing me, like literally blowing them out.
+
+[22:10] Blow them out. But like uh point being that like wow. You're but you're looking for breakdown products. And when I think katsuabushi, the main breakdown products that we're getting from them are protein products. Now, breakdown of sugar things, typically sugar breakdown products are let's face it, simple in flavor, uh, unless they then go through low-temp, long-age myard, which they do, you know, and you get like you know, non-enzymatic browning, which is you know, long-term myard reactions, and they can be somewhat complex, but not on that savory umami hit like you get out of protein breakdown products.
+
+[22:46] Because I mean, look, all the main savory fermented stuff that we eat: soy, fish sauce, uh miso, uh you pick one. Parmesan cheese. Parmesan cheese, uh, you know, any any one of these things, Worcestershire sauce, whatever, you know what I mean? Protein breakdown. It's all protein breakdown.
+
+[23:06] Um, and and you know, the other issue with the fruit is it's your water content. It's so I mean, there's just there's not gonna be much like persimmon was my first thought on it too, but it's just water, water, water. But once they bled it out, it turns meaty because it's big enough. But very few fruits do that. Yeah, I mean like, you know, ain't you know I've had some dry melons that are interesting.
+
+[23:27] That was that was that was the second thought there, you know, was potentially in some dry melons, and you've already got like a little bit of that natural funk, you know, especially in cantaloupe. You've got that kind of like stinky. So, you know, you know, there might there might be something there as well. But I think again, like even with a cantaloupe, you know, your water content is just so high that you're not gonna have much left. Right, you need to do a par dehigh first.
+
+[23:48] Dehigh is French for dehydration, but uh it's not really. But uh, but like you gotta like uh, yeah, you gotta get rid of some of that water first, because otherwise it just goes straight to spoil town instead of uh And if you want umami, I mean we need some amino acids from somewhere. You need it. There's no other way. There's no other way.
+
+[24:06] Literally, your taste buds are there so that you are like, oh, I am receiving protein. You know what I mean? And that's part of the bone I have to pick with you. All right, here we go. You put savory down.
+
+[24:19] First of all, okay, you have this. It is 100% true. People confuse what happens in their nose. When I say nose, I mean the whole McGillah, all your olfactory senses, right? On the tongue, and then the various trigeminal senses that you have, right?
+
+[24:38] And so the the main break is between flavor and taste, right? Right. So taste is uh, you know, taste is nostasia's bad taste in watching The Bachelor constantly. No, it's like with stuff that happens on your tongue, it's like, yeah, yeah, terrible. She loves that stuff.
+
+[24:54] Nastasia once and you were sucked in a little bit. I can see that. That's a lie. I can see you getting into it. Does the winner get the rose or the loser get the rose?
+
+[25:02] Does it matter? Well about the journey. It matters, it matters to the as long as they're there for the right reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The right reasons are what Nastasia, like it.
+
+[25:14] Oh, I I don't like it. I just watch it. I'm not one of those people. I just, you know, a Jerry Springer is just on for the for the the milieu that it creates in my apartment. Anyway, so um where were we?
+
+[25:29] We were talking about flavors, flavors, yeah. So flavor and taste. So, like, like to me, the the here's where I think we're a little bit different, or where I don't I don't know, you tell me where we are. So to me, taste is the crap that's on your tongue. Right.
+
+[25:44] Six, six senses, basically. Well, we can argue about that, you know. What about CO2? CO2 is mediated by that. I mean, I think there's yeah, so I mean, there well, but that that's that's not a taste bud reaction.
+
+[25:55] That's a nerve reaction, that's a nerve reaction. No, no, no, no, no. Because like spicy is not enzyme, it's enzyme mediated through your sour receptor. So I think it's at least that's what that's what Zucker said. I mean, maybe they've done more research, but I'm saying it's complicated.
+
+[26:10] I think like I I think I think we're gonna see the number of recognized tastes double in the next 10 to 10 to 15 years. Right. So let's so let's not even say how many tastes there are. Let's not get into whether or not like how fat works. Let's not even get into that.
+
+[26:23] Let's just divide this crap into crap that's on your tongue, and crap that's in your nose. Crap that's in your nose, and crap that's just an irritant, like trigeminal, or a crap that's mainly a sensation of like uh like you know, I I see that you believe, and I don't really know what's current, so I don't have a belief on like how astringency works, whether it's just uh, you know, an actual like tactile sensation or what, let's not even go there, right? Crap it's on your tongue, or crap it's in your nose. So most of the time what you're seem to go is you seem to take the flavor is the crap in your nose, and taste is the crap in your tongue, and ooh, crap on your tongue, nasty. But then, like I've always thought my view has always been taste is the crap on your tongue, flavor is the combination of old fashioned and the crap on your tongue.
+
+[27:13] Like it's the whole Megilla, but you don't ascribe to that. But you put savory as part of flavor, even though that crap is crap on your tongue. It is, it is. Look, I had to make some tough decisions and categorizing all of this. And it was, I mean, this was incredibly hard to try to categorize all of this.
+
+[27:32] Um that is you I've you zeroed in on the one category that's really not aroma-driven. And it is, that's exactly right. Uh you know, where we put savory on the wheel, we kind of lumped in basically the umami ingredients all together. Uh umami is not an aroma-driven response. It's a it's a tongue-driven response.
+
+[27:54] Um, and it's it's kind of the it's the one part of the flavor wheel, um, you know, in in the matrix that is not fully aroma-driven. Right, and you but you shade there also in sour, right? So when you say pungent, what you mean are these like like uh sulfurous like muscle mustard case. Exactly. Right.
+
+[28:14] So, but on the sour stuff, like to me, volatile sour is acetic. Right. Straight up only acetic. The other acids to me are almost completely non-volatile. But I don't know.
+
+[28:30] Like you like, like I think you see that as like kind of like also a bridge. At least in the book, it appears like and listen, every time we went through edits, something would come back, and I'd be like, you separating herbaceous and menthol was brutal for me. Every time I was like, I was like, no basil's menthol. No basil's herbaceous. And we're you know, back and forth and back and forth because uh eventually I just had to like, okay, this is where they're gonna go, and we're leaving them there, and I'm not moving them anymore.
+
+[28:58] Um there's uh that was one of the hardest ones. That was a very hard one for me, separating what was menthol, because you could make an argument for tarragon in there, you could make an argument for basil. More than more than a more than an argument for tarragon. But you can make the same argument for them in herbaceous as well because you've got so many of the strong green aromas. So I you know, but menthol also does ment does menthol, do you I know they're they're different, but does that shade into kind of those usually kind of flavors to you?
+
+[29:22] Like to me, like because then but then they start to straddle like the woody aromas too. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like things are it's hard to make categories. And it was extraordinarily hard to pick make categories, and they're not perfect. I don't think you could ever unless you know we unless we started separating by compound.
+
+[29:39] Yeah, you know, which is too too much for people to absorb too much, right? It's it's hard. So we try to do our best. I I mean to just kind of find a good category to to fit them in. And um there's some there's some that I've really struggled with, and and you like you nailed those right off of the back.
+
+[29:54] Because they're tough. Look, tough is tough the world around. Yeah. Uh it is what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:59] Yeah, it is what it is. I said that once and someone was it, Ken Ingbert came back and was like, hey, uh we had another one for you. Do you remember you said menthol. Do you remember like 10, 11, 12 years ago when everyone was using freaking menthol crystals? Yes.
+
+[30:15] Dang. Like, here's the one thing like it's like it's like around the same time everyone was using Sichuan buttons. And I'm like, I'm that guy, and I this is like it was a big learning thing for me because I am extremely sensitive. Like the menthol crystals, I'm like, they just blow my palate out for like a long time. But I'm sure that it doesn't have that effects on the chefs that are using it.
+
+[30:41] So when you're I think one of the interesting things about bringing new ingredients or Sichuan buttons, like now my tongue tastes like uh like I'm licking batteries and tinfoil for like, you know, like 20 minutes. It's very annoying. Like I I don't enjoy the experience of a Sichuan button. I don't. I don't at all.
+
+[30:58] I I have learned to enjoy higher quantities of Sichuan peppercorn at all. Oh, I was gonna ask if they were the same thing. No, Sichuan buttons are these flowers that like if Sichuan peppercorns are like a jalapenos, Sichuan buttons are like a uh Carolina Reaper. Yeah. After you eat one, you feel like you just came from the dentist and you're drooling out of the corner of your mouth and you're slapping yourself on the cheek and nothing uh you can't taste a damn thing for like literally for like 15, 20 minutes, you're shot in terms of like your discrimination.
+
+[31:32] You know what I mean? I'm sure if you're accustomed to it, that's not the case. The same way that like I can take a whole lot of capsecum heat and you know, relatively quickly be in good tasting order again. Not sure why you'd want to become accustomed to Session buttons. Yeah, but no, but like Session button no, but like Sichuan peppercorn, I have become you know, used like through like people like Danny Bow and I'd say thank you, Danny.
+
+[31:53] Yeah, become accustomed to higher levels of it, but still Sichuan buttons are a nightmare. But menthol, yeah, it was that thing. People were just like sprinkling menthol crystals all over everything. And I think that's because probably some people are more, you know, those of those of us that smoke cools are more like inured to the effect of menthol on the palate than talking to you, Alex Dupac. Like uh, I remember he used to like the menthol.
+
+[32:16] But um I think Sam Mason also used to did he like the menthol? A lot of people like menthol. But what do you what like do you find that problem with new ingredients? Is that with old ingredients, uh cooks in general have a long track record of knowing what other people will think about them, right? And I learned this a lot when I was teaching um at the French culinary, and I'm sure you you know see teaching at ICE, is that you is that when you're teaching large groups of people, or when you have a restaurant and you have a large group of people coming in, if you're willing to listen and take the feedback, you can learn that your palate isn't necessarily everyone's palate.
+
+[32:50] But with new ingredients, it's hard because there's not a large enough uh, you know, as we say, N, there's not a large enough N to know how people are gonna respond to it. Yeah, and I think you know, people that it's something new, it's something different. People get excited and they just want to like start throwing it everywhere. And I mean, I don't want my salad to taste like icebreaker's gum. You know, that's just not cool in in any way.
+
+[33:10] Um but I think yeah, unless you got a hot date. Oh. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, that's the thing. It's like, you know, and my new, I knew I was my mouth was freaking fresh after those menthol desserts.
+
+[33:19] Maybe that's what it's about. But I think you know, it's a you know, it is I mean, I think it's it's something you know we've seen for a while now. It's like every new technique comes along, every new little trick, every new little ingredient, you know. There are, I mean, you know, I thought foam is the best example. It's like that's it's a great thing when you use it the right way, but it doesn't belong everywhere.
+
+[33:38] And just because you can doesn't mean you should. Yeah. Well, my favorite foam, whipped cream. Gotta love whipped cream. I will put whipped cream on almost anything.
+
+[33:47] I eat whipped cream off of spoons. I will just tuck into a bowl of whipped cream. I like whipped cream. I think like if God were to choose one food, I think whipped cream maybe, because it's very ethereal. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:01] Bread bread is my favorite. Oh, bread is the bread is Michael Lasconis. Oh. I love Michael. How's Michael doing?
+
+[34:07] He's good. He's good. Chocolate it up. Chocolate it up. Yeah.
+
+[34:11] Yeah. Michael Scottis, good guy. Uh still ahead of pastry there at the uh Yeah, and you know, we've got bean to bar chocolate facility now over at ICE. So he that's kind of his his land, and he's he's doing all kinds of cool things out of the chocolate lab. Again, remember, don't stop at the bar, go all the way to toilet.
+
+[34:26] Be into toilet, farm to toilet. That's the that's the thing. All right, now my other larger bone to pick with you. So, the way the flavor matrix starts out for those of you that aren't, and we're gonna get into we're gonna get into some like we're gonna get into it here, right? It starts out with your meeting, literally starts like the first paragraph.
+
+[34:43] It starts with your well, I don't want to say meeting because it is a computer, Watson. Interaction with Chef interaction with Watson, right? And uh if you don't call it Chef. You think she's shopping for shoes on Zappo, but then she comes out with it. Give me a little pin.
+
+[35:01] Well, you know, we know she's multitasking. There's no such thing. People, if when you say you're multitasking, that means you're doing everything poorly, right? The multitasking is is French for I suck. You know what then?
+
+[35:11] In that spirit, I think we should take a quick break before we finish out the show. All right, we'll take a break, come back back more with cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. We have a question from a listener about Bob's gluten-free egg replacer, which has four ingredients potato starch, tapioca flour, baking soda, and psyllium husk fiber. Bill wants to know what about this combination replicates the properties of eggs.
+
+[35:48] Now remember, anytime you're gonna use an egg replacer, the question is in what application are you using it? Eggs serve a lot of different functions. In this case, this Bob's Red Mill product is meant to be used in quick breads and other kinds of baking applications. So what it's doing there is it's providing a air holding kind of capacity, right? Because it gives kind of a thickening texture and it's gonna provide some leavening.
+
+[36:09] So the baking soda is there to increase the leavening of the product. It's also gonna make it slightly more basic. The psyllium is there as kind of this gluey thing that you get out of an egg. And then the starches are there to be fairly neutral. They're gonna add some viscosity to the product, but also they're gonna provide structure when it bakes out.
+
+[36:29] And so potato starch in particular, and potato starch and tapioca starch both have kind of very elastic texture. Well, tapioca especially is elastic when it's cooked, and potato starch swells a lot and soaks up a lot of water. So it's there to kind of provide those functions. Do you have a question about Bob's Red Mill ingredient? Tweet it to us at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[36:49] If you want to try cooking with gluten-free egg replacer, go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. And we're back. Alright, uh, Dave, you say we got some callers? We do have a caller.
+
+[37:07] Alright, so like we're gonna take the callers and then gonna we're gonna James, you and I are gonna get back into flavor pairing theory because we're gonna have a big old fist fight over this. So color, you're on the air. Hey, all right, never mind. Alright. Cool.
+
+[37:22] You say we had two, we have another, or we lose them both. Do we lose them both? Alright, fist fight time. Yeah, I think we lost them. Yeah, get into the fist fight.
+
+[37:30] All right. So here we go. So you start with uh meeting Watson, and then you and then you say rather cavalierly that you got into this thing called flavor pairing theory. Now, I got first of all, we're not even gonna get into the whole, we're not even gonna get into the whole Air Vatist thing because I don't have all day. Oh my, I've had this I've had this fight with Herbay myself.
+
+[37:53] What's the point of having a fight with a guy who doesn't like the word food and says things like proteins don't exist? There's no point in fighting with, I'm not gonna say on air that Air Vatice is a huckster. We'll leave it at that. By fight, I mean he gave me his opinion strongly, and I said, cool. You know, you gotta beat Danny.
+
+[38:16] Look, look, I've said this many times before. You're either a tease person or a McGee person. I'm a McGee person. A hundred percent. 100%.
+
+[38:25] Is that like Elvis and Beatles people? No, because I like both Elvis and the Beatles. So you can't like both of these people? No. Why not?
+
+[38:33] You can't like them both if you know a lot about either of them. That's what it is. You know what I mean? Like Elvis and the Beatles are fundamentally unrelated. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:45] Like, like maybe at a particular point in time you were the kind of person who listened to Elvis and those people didn't hang out with Beatles people. But there's nothing inherently that says you can't listen to Bossa Nova Baby, which by the way was written by Ed Wood's wife, ex-wife before I think they're all dead now. Great song, Bosnia. Or, you know, love me do. Anyway, my point being is that I think there's a more fundamental difference between Tease's approach to the world and Harold McGee's approach to the world.
+
+[39:15] All right. So flavor pairing theory, I will say it uh simply and roughly, and then you can tell me why I'm being oversimplistic and whatnot. But that uh in some way, like goes with like, and by studying the compounds that are in X, Y, or Z food, you can learn other things that go with it uh that have similar compounds. This was also been there are other things that are related to flavor pairing theory that have to do with the rise of big data over the past 15 years or so, where people have done lots of studies on the similarities and or differences of what they consider to be the important compounds in recipes. All of the studies I have seen like that on uh, for instance, uh in massive quotes, uh cross cultural studies of recipes based on on uh data mining, I think are by and large, no offense to them, garbage.
+
+[40:20] Because I think that if you read the underlying data sets that they use, they're like, well, we looked up Asia for White People, and then we uh, you know what I mean? And like they they like I think like they they don't go to the fundamental issue of how cuisines arise, which is we have these ingredients and we've lived with them for a thousand years, and here's what we've come up with over, and then this has been injected, this injected. So, but that's that section of what I think is like the larger complex of points of which flavor, you know, flavor pairing theory is a part, I don't think is as germane to you to what you're writing about. So in other words, I don't think you care so much in here whether or not the average uh western, if there isn't even a word western, if that even makes sense, because it doesn't, like putter, you know, pairing of butter and flour, and you know, which they you know point out, whether that whether those aroma compounds go together, I don't think is part of the main thesis of your book. I think it goes more to this thing, which you know, I look up like Bernard Lahoose or these other folks who are looking much as you did on the compounds that are similar and saying, let's look at new um new pairings that result from these similarities in compounds.
+
+[41:36] I would say the most famous early example is kind of the what is it, white, white uh was it? Chocolate, white chocolate and caviar. Yeah. Is that any good? Have you ever tasted it?
+
+[41:44] I have, it actually is. It actually is. Um, but I think I think the the the white chocolate and caviar more than anything, it's the salty sweet. Right. You know, that I think that's like the white chocolate pretty neutral other than the vanilla, right?
+
+[41:56] I mean, that was the thing you know that we got into when we with you know with Las Canaans when we first started talking about it. I mean, you know, it's it's cocoa butter, sugar, and sugar, you know, essentially and vanilla, right? So really you're looking at the vanilla pairing with with caviar and you know, vanilla vanilla's got a lot going on there and pairs with a lot of things because it is you know one of those complex, even though it doesn't that doesn't have you know the high number of compounds, in fact it's kind of surprisingly low when you look at coffee that's got you know over 800 compounds that make up the aroma of coffee, only about 200 in vanilla. Um so but I think it's something we would absolutely call complex, even so you know, to your point earlier that you know you can have something to be very complex, even though it doesn't have this you know massive number of compounds in it. So to your point about flavor pairing theory and where you're going, I think you know, there was a big study about four or five years ago that I think exactly the one you're talking about where they looked at shared compounds in quote western traditional western recipes versus traditional eastern recipes.
+
+[42:55] I think it's garbage science. Yeah. Um where in I think the point of it is there they found plenty of very popular recipes or dishes that have very few shared compounds in them. So kind of against what we're saying here in the flavor matrix, and then in you know, uh again the the Western idea, uh, they found we found a much higher incidence of of the shared flavor compounds. Um what it really to me comes down to more is the is the like lichen like, you know, thing things that are similar go well together.
+
+[43:28] And one really interesting thing I found that was just like too much to get into and a little too early in it. But with some of the early researchers in the Chef Watson project, we've been discussing it lately. And a lot of flavor data, you know, a lot of the a lot of the flavor compounds are derived from environment. So it kind of takes us a little back to that, you know, what grows together goes together kind of thing. Which I also don't believe, but go ahead.
+
+[43:54] Wait, what? Yep. What? It's time? Wait, okay, wait.
+
+[43:57] Go ahead. Well, I think that's a matter of, that's just a matter of. You just got into it, Dave. All right. That's okay.
+
+[44:03] I can skip that. Okay, go, go, go. You know, that's just a matter of like, hey, here's, you know, these are the ingredients we have, so we are suits our taste became suited to them. There you go. This is all we had.
+
+[44:12] It's a cooking. Ding ding ding. We've I think one of my favorite data points in it is that chemically, olive oil is better suited for apples than butter is. So take that and make your apple pie with olive oil instead of butter. Have you tried it?
+
+[44:26] Yeah. How is it? Hard to make a decent crust out of olive oil. But we did a sous vide poached apple in olive oil. We did, you know, little vacuum infusion with olive oil and then poached apples, sous vide in olive oil, and they are freaking awesome.
+
+[44:39] First of all, what apple are you taking as your prime apple? That was a I mean in terms of the golden delicious. Okay, golden delicious. So that's the the that's the apple of which is a little green, it's got more of the green aroma. So are you choosing a greener olive oil or a more butter olive oil?
+
+[44:54] Um yeah, I guess it's probably a greener, a greener olive oil. See, that's something, you know, so uh I mean, and that's the thing we had to do in the book is kind of look at generalities because there could be an entire book of of different apple matrices, you know. I mean, when you start getting into the you know different varieties and different things they have going on. There are like, yeah, apples fall into camps, but those camps are very different from each other. Yeah.
+
+[45:15] You know what I mean? In terms in terms of aroma. And then the interplay of what their aroma is with their underlying sugar acid base. I think is like super important. Anyway, so we could go on, we can go on forever, but I will I'll say this.
+
+[45:27] I here's what I think. I think that you should check out the book and you should look at it. And while I do not while I do not ascribe to the fact that like always goes with like, I think there's a lot of places in here where you will see things that you have put together before and you will see the similarity once you see them on the wheel. And I also think that like the the Airvati's model of just taking a bunch of things and randomly combining them based on some sort of like metric, I don't think you ascribe to this. Because I think that's garbage work.
+
+[46:04] And that's what he that's his counter to to flavor parent theory. He's like, oh, I could just I could just taste a bunch of stuff together and figure it out eventually, too. I'm like, you can't. But it's a little more systematic. I think great spot for people to go, you know, inspiration.
+
+[46:16] You want to get some new ideas, you want to try out something different, you know, there's this this can point you in some good directions. Look, like it or don't, just buy it. Yeah, just buy it. And that you don't have to look at it. But I think that that's what the thing is.
+
+[46:26] I think like I think that any time someone becomes dogmatic is when they run into problems. And you have a section here where you're saying things that are complimentary, right, versus things that uh are opposing or balancing. And you always want to balance. I mean, that's why I used to love going to JG so much, because he was the, you know, he was the that was the French, the high-end French restaurant that knew how to balance their stuff with acid better than that. That's a great place to leave it.
+
+[46:51] Hold on, but but don't uh the ads after. But but but what I'm saying is I think as a source of inspiration and learning, I think we can agree, right, that that is the most interesting thing is it gives you new places to look for for pairings that you wouldn't necessarily have looked for. Not necessarily. Would you agree that it's not necessarily true that always like goes with like? Because if two things have a poop aroma in them and you put them together, that's double poop.
+
+[47:17] Double poop. Nobody wants double poop. Absolutely, nobody wants double poop. All right, thanks for coming on. All right.
+
+[47:20] Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[47:52] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[48:16] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code CookingIssues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberto Pizzeria in Bushwick. Not joined as usual by Nastasi De Hammer Lopez. She is even later than I am. She's on her way.
+
+[0:47] She got pulled into a meeting. Now let me ask you something. That sounds bogus. Dave in the booth. Let me ask you something about a meeting.
+
+[0:53] What's the one time during the whole week where you know you shouldn't be planning a meeting? When you're doing your podcast? That is correct. Also, who gets pulled into a meeting? Don't you have to schedule a meeting?
+
+[1:02] Well, not in the old days. In the old days, the boss would just come by and be like, well, hey, come into my office. But now that everyone like commutes from home and has like all kind of like, you know, responsibilities dribbling out of their ears and side jobs and crap. Now everything has to be scheduled. I I drive Uber.
+
+[1:16] Yeah. Oh, speaking. For real? Yeah, though. Uh lower at the bakery, yeah, of course.
+
+[1:24] So long. I gotta I gotta put my kids through school, so you know, Uber at least like three nights a week. The person uh flexible at Kids of Feedman. Well, no, it lets you. Hold on, I got I gotta introduce you guys.
+
+[1:34] First of all, I'm getting old. First of all, I'm getting old. Maybe it's time. I'll just say. Sorry, no, no, I actually sorry, I meant to say Lyft, not Uber.
+
+[1:43] So uh we have Jim Leahy, uh founder, owner of the Sullivan Street Bakery. Uh and I guess kind of and part-time lift driver. And I would say, would you say like can you just give me five stars? How many different Sullivan-esque bakeries are there now in New York? Oh, Jesus.
+
+[2:02] I never, I mean, I haven't really given any. How many direct offshoots of you are there? Well, I mean, in terms of the other companies that like that I kind of influenced, if directly or indirectly. All of all? I don't know.
+
+[2:17] Um for those of you that don't know, and also, uh, he's not look, Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink is here. Hello, Peter. And not no longer just uh punching bag Peter, but Papa punching bag. I want everyone to know out there that Peter Kim is now a father. Yeah.
+
+[2:34] First time, first time father. That's a pretty cool rain stack, man. Yeah. Uh by the way, Jim, you have you okay? How many kids you got, Jim?
+
+[2:40] Oh, I've got three. Three. All right. So uh, you know, Peter, only one. Why don't we?
+
+[2:44] But whatever. Uh point is, is I feel I can no longer insult Peter in the same way because then I'm insulting someone's dad. Right. And that's like, that's not cool. Right.
+
+[2:56] You know what I mean? But you never seem to bother mind your kids seeing you insult me. I remember you I remember one of the first times I hung out with Dax, he came over to me and said, Peter, why is my dad so mean to you? You know, I didn't know exactly what to say. Why don't you tell him the truth?
+
+[3:14] I deserve it, Dax. Dave's kind of a walking do as I say, not as I do. Exactly. He was just lambassing Stas for coming late. That is a freaking lie.
+
+[3:23] First of all, that is a lie. I take and I receive. Oh. Like I like unlike Trenton, a city of Trent. Oh.
+
+[3:31] Uh no, but I mean, in other words, like I like I give people crap, but I also receive plenty of crap. True. Yeah. And I take it with, in general, with good humor. The only people I don't take crap uh in use humor from is people who won't who won't receive it, who won't let me know.
+
+[3:44] Like Jeff Bezos. No, Jeff Bezos turns out like his minions have been kind of a good sport about the whole thing. They haven't fixed our problems at Amazon, but they've been kind of a good sport. All right, listen. So what are we talking about today?
+
+[3:59] So Jim has uh came out at the end of last year a a new cookbook, the follow-up to his what is it, blockbuster success, the original one? Yeah, I guess. Like the like blockbuster? I would call it blockbuster, yeah. Nucle nuclear success.
+
+[4:17] Yeah, well, it was like uh for a bread book, like the m like the best selling like bread book that like you know in a long time that's well I don't know about that, but it it did it did stay on on the Amazon list for quite some time up in the in the top part. But you know, it's uh I think more than the book itself. I think it's it's the method in the book has been imitated, I think, by no less than 12 other authors. So I'm you know, I'm just a s I I've published the first book, and then uh, you know, there were other books that came out, you know, trying to popularize the same method. Yeah, well, uh for those of you that don't know, uh uh Jim and I shared an editor.
+
+[4:59] We had the same editor. Yeah, and then typical American fashion all claimed that they kind of like were like it was their idea. Well, no, but so yeah, well, no, but like so our our our editor. The no touch method. No, our our our editor, Maria Guarnicelli, who has since retired, so I didn't get to finish my second book with her.
+
+[5:18] Um anyway, she came up, right Where Where was the the soundtrack for the applause when you said that? I think he doesn't know her, that's why. So like um there you go. So the uh anyway, so she I'm sure she's lovely. So Family Show, remember Family Show everyone.
+
+[5:29] So she uh she came up. I just I'm just reminding Jim Leahy, who you know, we have similar foul mouths, it's just he's not used to being on the radio show, and so that's all. I was mentioning in advance. I've I've toned down my my my use of foul language. Why?
+
+[5:47] I don't know. I just Peter Kim has a kid now. That's right. Maybe that's why Peter Kim, also a foul-mouthed individual. Peter Kim, a habitual line stepper.
+
+[5:55] So if you take it right, if you if you take like a conversation right up to the edge of propriety, he'll just step right over that line. Oh, yeah, the pot call and the kettle black. I used to be known for that. Yeah, no, I'm the line rider, Dave. No, you man, you cannonball across that line.
+
+[6:10] I do not tiptoe, I do the toe across the line. No, no, no, no. I jump, I'm not shepherd, you are called shouldering a couple of things. I jump over all the dash lines that people are afraid to go over, but then there's these hard lines that then Peter like goes right over the cliff on. Right, right.
+
+[6:25] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like I go over the yellow line and he just goes onto the platform to use a subway reference. I'm missing so many metaphors right now. Anyways, so the what Marina Guarn Shelley, the editor, like this, the whatever what do you call the thing under the title? The tagline?
+
+[6:40] What do you call it? Subtitle? The subtitle? Yeah. Was no no need, no something.
+
+[6:45] And then here's no work. She added the that was her idea, right? Or is that yours? Yeah. No work.
+
+[6:50] And she's like, that sold eight jillion copies of that. But we were like, I can make this kind of bread with no work. No work? I can make this bread. And they're like, so you sold a million copies of that.
+
+[6:59] Yeah, well, I I it the I did get my first royalty check, which was nice. Nice. You need to come up now with the no-brains method. Someone who's really dumb can make it. What do you think?
+
+[7:09] I think there might even be a no need for no need bread for dummies at this point. Really? No. So so for those of you also that don't know, uh Sullivan Street Bakery, when did you open? 90.
+
+[7:21] We're 24 years old this year. What does that mean? 1990, 94. So I moved into the city right then. Uh like that's right when I moved into the city.
+
+[7:30] It was brand new. And uh my wife and I were in grad school, and the bread, cheers. Cheers, congratulations, Peter. Thank you. Congratulations.
+
+[7:39] Uh bread in New York City, and I think I've said this on the air before, uh, was freaking awful. Like the bread in New York City was an embarrassment. In fact, like one of the reasons to travel to Europe and other places was that they had decent bread, and our bread was garbage. And by the way, the impression that all Europeans still to this day have of America is that our bread is bad. And not to, you know, pump you up any more than you need, Jim, but like when I first went to Sullivan Street, I was like, holy Christ.
+
+[8:11] I was like, you know, someone cares about their bread. They're focused on a specific style, they care about it. I remember you used to at the at the front counter, you had all those pizzas, like Bianca and everything. I had to thank all the staff from stopping me from putting in an ATM machine and uh some soft serve ice cream. Uh at the time?
+
+[8:33] Yeah, you know, I was I just wanted to take it in all these like you know, typical directions. The bread, the bread, the bread. Oh, the typical bread zombie. The boars head display, you know, all that. Everyone likes a boar's head display.
+
+[8:43] But thankfully, all my employees were like rallied against me saying, no, you have to keep it really traditional. Right. And so uh also at the time he had these things that were you know called pizza, like Bianca. Did you did you do the potato one as well? You did the potato one.
+
+[8:58] We did, yeah, we did like the typical pizza that you would get from a bakery. Right. But Americans were like the only difference is in Italy where socially the bakery represents this it's like this daily necessity and also it represents the kind of like thrift like the the cheapness of bread in Italy really matters. It resonates with people the they feel the bread should be inexpensive but there's this deep tradition and culture of method methods and techniques and forms and all this other stuff. But in Italy the bakers would use to make like a potato pizza the the crappiest oils and potatoes and they don't necessarily like cherish back then.
+
+[9:55] Right. But now but now if you go to Italy you see that you know a lot of these forms that were maybe not front and center but popular have become even more front and center. You put the song Cherish in my head now. Yeah so James actually inspired a whole new kind of pizza in Italy too on top of everything else in New York. Wow because Peter's just being a Peter's just being a Diago I'm not trying to imply that's but you know you can see there are certain forms that have been constant.
+
+[10:23] I'm not doing anything new I'm just doing I'm just doing like a my rendition my version of something that I ate in Europe basically when I was a wee one. How do you feel about all the maison Kaisers that have cropped up everywhere around New York City? It's crazy. I think it's amazing that uh, you know, that there's obviously a market for that for this market. I mean, it's uh a very uh French approach.
+
+[10:50] I I think it's encouraging to see. Yeah. Um I don't know, you know, from an operation standpoint um how they could make money, but but if they do, then great. Um I also think um just because I know how expensive some of the real estate is and also how much sales are required. However, most of the companies that come in in this format, like you see all this sort of this proliferation of like new coffee companies and Bluestone Lane and Joe and the Juice and all this other shit.
+
+[11:23] Like hey, stuff, family show. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Being rolled out, and you realize it's it's just kind of like investment money and investment groups and uh uh people trying to sort of capture this sort of ever changing shifting market. Um it's almost like um you really think it's that I think it's people hate their lives and they like food. Um, we we we now we're we've become a we we have expectations where we had less before.
+
+[11:53] We have much more expectation now about how things should be. I mean, the the diner is the old you know, I mean, I I mean in the golden days in the golden days of Yelp, you know, when it when Yelp mattered. They had a golden day? Well, in the beginning when people would like you you'd you know, one I remember when I opened Co. ten years ago, which I recently closed, that, like that was so important to see to kind of follow your Yelp feed, if you will, and see what your ranking and your rating was.
+
+[12:23] But then as time went on, it like everything else in this uh world in which we're living, it became kind of kind of corrupted by bots and became became corrupted. Well, it was already this golden age of well, I'm gonna say golden age. It's all the trip advisor now. No one doesn't know. We're still at the second inning in terms of these types of uh services.
+
+[12:49] I mean, pretty soon Robert's is gonna be hiring wait staff from the basic Uber version of waiters that come in and and basically I'm here to work in your restaurant as you're a waiter. They told you this, or you're looking for it. No, but eventually what's gonna happen with technology is it's gonna basically envelop us. I don't know, maybe we're almost there. I mean, we we know we've got like maybe a finger sticking out of the envelope.
+
+[13:14] I don't know. You know, and we know and we know that there's sunlight because we can feel the warmth on our finger, or it's maybe a I mean, I'm as pessimistic someone's nose or something. I'm as pessimistic as the next fellow, but I mean pessimistic there are people who will pay like why people every once in a while try people try to bring back the automat, right? And and honestly, if the food that I'm gonna get is garbage, I'd prefer it to be a zero human being interaction. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:41] But I think there's always gonna be a market, and let's be honest, because we make very little in this country with our hands anymore, right? And you know, to the extent that we do make things here, they're made by robots because that's the only way to do it, like economically. To that extent, there's millions, hundreds of millions of people in service jobs that should have no business being in service jobs because they don't care about other human beings or about service, right? And so you don't necessarily want to interact with those people because they don't want to interact with you. But I think at the high end, there's always going to be a market for a human interaction.
+
+[14:14] One where you actually like like, and to use your word from earlier, cherish the interaction. Well, it goes back to the mission of hospitality, which is one of hosting, one of welcoming, one of kind of curating for someone an experience. I mean, that uh it's it's a it's a form of embrace, not just with with words or you know, plates or dishes or or styles of cuisine. It's I mean, that's ultimately what hospitality is about. I mean, for me.
+
+[14:48] Um, you know, I mean the best designers, the best chefs, the best uh, you know, uh, I mean, it's it maybe on on a certain level for certain operators, it gets easier because they have access to so much resource, but it doesn't mean that they're gonna succeed. It doesn't mean it's gonna necessarily resonate. It's not like bad design. But it's not like there's an there's an algorithm now. I'm sure there is already is um a bot that studies you know the algorithm of what the next type of food concept or food trend is gonna be based on you know an algorithm of no, yeah, there's big money in that.
+
+[15:26] Yeah, but I'm saying it's it but at the end of the day, why the f would we we we why why the f uh Faro salad would we wanna would we want to worry about that right now? Yeah, at the end of the day it's like you know, I I I wake up in the morning, I I I go to my little coffee bar, which happens to be downstairs, and you're like, and I own it. Okay, but like it has I say, the the mediocre food, mediocre design, mediocre environs, top-notch FOH service, good experience. Well flat across the street. But then again, you're also like there's a whole army of people who know how to make coffee art and how to pull shots.
+
+[16:10] I mean, there's I think there's even a uh an a employment service that kind of functions like Uber for coffee bars, where I own a coff I own like ten coffee bars and I'm missing a a team member here and a team member there and a team member and and there's this sort of like circulation of voluntary baristas. Now according to David Schomer, that's your first mistake, owning ten. He's like own two, maybe. Well, I mean again, it's like w what is it there is this sort of like desire or reach in our culture right now for grandness, for bigness for people, it turns out like money. Find the you know, the the uh guidance uh missile guidance uh arms contractor, investor dude who needs to kind of launder money from uh Israel or whatever.
+
+[17:00] You go so negative all the time. No, no, or wherever, or from uh Germany. No, they could be laundering from anywhere. I'm not saying Israel. Yeah, no, yeah, not I'm not I'm I'm very pro-Israel.
+
+[17:09] I love Israel. I really thought lost the thread here. You want to take a call? Yeah, call her, you're on the air. Germany, Switzerland.
+
+[17:16] Hey, hey, Dave. Hey, hey, how are you doing? All right, what's up? Hey, I've got a rack of beef. There is cut from like the rib primal.
+
+[17:26] Um, and I was wondering if you had any advice on low temp or uh other unique ways of cooking this thing. I know there's not a ton of meat on there, but uh just curious to hear your thoughts. So you cut the you cut the ribs off of the ribeye. Did you did you cut the whole bone off so you have the whole thing, or did you cut the short, did you cut them short and left the bone on the rib. I no, I got the whole thing.
+
+[17:50] I didn't do it, but it's like the big long rib rack with all the meat in between them. Yeah. What what uh what grade level is the meat? Do you know? Probably choice.
+
+[18:00] Choice. That's a really I like I kind of like that word choice as a word. Choice. Choice. Uh I actually like that word better than prime.
+
+[18:10] I don't like that. Choice. Amazon choice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, choice.
+
+[18:13] Anyway, so back to your problem. Uh what I would do is look, the honest fact is is uh what what what access do you have to the out of doors? Uh I can get to like a Weber uh where I could smoke them or something like that. All right here. Well, here's what I would do.
+
+[18:29] I would just, if you have a bag, typically what I do is I low temp everything. Uh I would if it's tender enough uh as is, which it sounds like it is, I'd throw it in the bat in a bag with some uh with some olive oil. If you want to put some spices in it, whatever, you can salt it or not. I'd add pepper at the get-go. It depends on how long you're gonna let it go.
+
+[18:47] Then I would cook it at um I'm uh looking in my hands at the size. I would cook it at 55 degrees Celsius for in the area of an hour, hour and 20, because you're not trying to tenderize it that much. You just want to guarantee that it's that whole level. Then I I would let it cool down. You can let it sit out, whatever, uh, because you're gonna you know, grill the hell out of it later.
+
+[19:08] Then fire up your grill hot. I'm a huge uh fan. Everyone's all about control. I detest control in in all things. I like temperature control on temperature controller when you're going low, but when you're going high, go high.
+
+[19:20] Just go high. Dave Dave is a surfer. It's like go high. Always go high. He's a flame surfer.
+
+[19:26] It is true. So, like my the way that I've been cooking in advance for the book that I have coming out that I'm working on. With the butane bottles. No, no, like so. Literally what I do is because I have a lot of extra wood, so I just try to make these maximum size fires to it imitate almost in a horizontal fashion the flame intensity you get out of a tandoor.
+
+[19:46] And I create what amounts to a funeral pyre in inside of my relatively large grill, because I have a cowboy, you know, grill, and I have infinite wood at the house. So I make these big fires. Infinite wood. Oh, Jesus, Dave, you had to go there, man. So the uh so anyway, I would go, I would go uh I would go high high heat on it, and then I would just put put them off and on.
+
+[20:10] I would put it on for depends on how high your flame is, between 45 seconds and two minutes, pull it off for about three minutes, back on, bop, bop, bop, until you get the crust that you want. And that way you can shift everything off and on your grill until everything is done. So I tend to, I tend to be nowadays of the instead of trying to regulate the heat, I just regulate the amount of time that it's on the heat. Very rare that you don't want a nice crust on the outside of your food. And just by taking it off and on, you will lower the average heat input into the middle of the meat, so it's you're not going to overcook it.
+
+[20:47] And you every time you apply it to the high temperature for even short periods of time, you will you will make a better and better crust on the outside. So that's typically what I do. So for something like you have at the level of heat I use, it's probably two times on at uh at a minute aside, and that's gonna be like real nice and charry on the outside. But again, like you're you know, for me, that's like putting it inside of uh uh a a kiln, basically. If you have a less intense flame, you might want to do it three times but just if you're gonna do it a lot of times make sure to rest it uh in between this is how in a tandoor you can have a juicy well they also marinate and beat the crap out of the meat but this is how you can have uh you know not overcooked viciously but have a nice outsize by off on off on off on and that's kind of what I would do but I would always ensure yourself with the low temp ahead of time this way there's no such thing as under your only mistake is to go uh over it's not that much extra time because honestly you know unless you're some sort of freak show you're probably prepping at some point during the day so throwing in the back of the thing or you could even prepare the day before yeah yeah it's not gonna hurt you it's not gonna hurt you not gonna hurt you that's what I that's like what I would do and then also it gives you more time to send out handwritten invitations to your friends.
+
+[21:59] Yeah the good news there is if you also if you need to make some chicken or for somebody else also you you don't even need to low temp the chicken because it's so thin you don't need to low temp the chicken get by thighs right by chicken thighs pound the chicken thighs out real relatively thin uh don't bones and all I remove I always remove the bones and the little thing of cartilage. So if you buy boned if you buy people if you buy boned chicken thighs please remove that one nasty vein that they always leave in and please remove that little piece of cartilage on on the bone that for some reason that a hole can never uh clip off for you. So remove that little cartilage knuckle because it's unpleasant. Are you c are you are you calling my friends a holes? I am uh salt it but don't do anything else uh salt it, pound it thin between two pieces of cellophane.
+
+[22:48] Then I do a classic yogurt, lemon juice, uh pepper, garlic, and green herb of uh green herb of your choice and maybe a spice of your choice and a little bit of sugar. Not to make it sweet, a little bit of sugar. That's kind of the marinade that I use uh and some oil. I add extra oil. And then you just I put that in a zippy, or if you have a vacuum, I vacuum that with the chicken for a couple of hours.
+
+[23:10] That'll tend to uh that'll tenderize it. The acid in the yogurt and the lemon juice will tenderize. I'm a firm believer in the if if you're gonna marinate chicken, that it be brief. Yeah, not that long. Not that long.
+
+[23:20] Otherwise, the texture of the meat becomes like fucking nasty. Hey, family show. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I warned you like twice. I hate that.
+
+[23:29] I get so like you ever go to those restaurants where they overmarinate the meat, it's almost like like leather. But remember though, you're over over marinating like thick cuts of meat is like hyper problematic. If you pound it thin and you're gonna do the next thing I tell you, that it's not quite as bad. Then grill at infinity, right? Like just like like real flat, off on, off on, off on.
+
+[23:51] Here's the other thing. I don't baste with oil in between because I'm a lazy weasel, so I spray pam on it in between. So like I'll pull it off the fire, spray pam on it, and throw it back on. You fuck. I'm telling you, man, when you get old, you get lazy.
+
+[24:04] So it's like I was saying before, like now that I like now that I've I'm 40, whatever, what am I, 47? I realized I need to buy gears for my bicycle. Like my whole, I've been like, I don't need gears on my bike. I don't need a freewheel. I'm not a lazy man.
+
+[24:16] But you know, going over the bridge shit, and I'm like, you know what? Maybe I could maybe I could use a gear on my bike. Maybe I could use, you know. If if you can always use a gear. You did come in pretty out of breath.
+
+[24:26] I live in Portland and people here, they go crazy over their fixies. And I think honestly, people who eschew bike gears, they're just dumb. They're just dumb. Wow. I like that strong statement.
+
+[24:38] I'll take. But here's the thing. New York City, here I'll tell you why I have a fixed gear bike. New York City is by and large flat. We have one decent hill in the 90s somewhere up by Kitchen Arts and Letters, the bookstore.
+
+[24:50] We have and we have a couple of bridges that have a kind of a decent incline. But otherwise, we're pretty flat. And um the problem with New York is is that uh my bike is stored in my closet, and so my derailleur kept on getting whacked out of uh whacked out of adjustment constantly. And so, because like to ride in New York, I don't know what it's like in Portland, but to ride in New York, if you're gonna actually lock your bike outside, this is way before City Bike, the chain was heavier than my bicycle. And it took also like it took like 10 minutes to properly lock it and unlock it, and you would enfilth in yourself every time with the chain.
+
+[25:28] So I'm a huge fan, Peter Kim is uh as well, of bringing your bike inside with you, which means for me a folder, right? But the deraillers kept on getting annihilated, and I was throwing chains constantly on the street. Like I'd be going down the street, you stand on the pedal to get going off of a light, you throw the chain. The fifth time that happened, I'm like, no. No, no, and so the question was am I gonna go to a single speed freewheel?
+
+[25:53] No cursing. I was gonna go to single speed freewheel, or am I gonna try the fix-y? And I was like, you know what? I'll try it. What the heck?
+
+[26:00] And then like I just haven't changed it since. It's been like, you know, 10, 12 years or something like that. But I I think at my time in life, I'm old enough that there is like it's just it is, as you say, stupid to not have some gears on that thing. What do you think of the Archie Sturmer uh like uh hub gear shift system? I've never used one.
+
+[26:17] They're not they're not really very efficient though, right? I don't know a thing about that. I just know it sounds like you got a good reason. Here in Portland, we've got hills, and honestly, people who are stuck in up those hills, sweating bees. Yeah, no, there's no point in that.
+
+[26:32] Hey, do you do you guys have bike thieves there? Oh, yeah, it's terrible. Probably not as bad as New York. Bike thieves. People that steal people's transports.
+
+[26:42] You know, but like it you don't know. Well, like, first of all, you don't know what that bike means to somebody. I can think of one thing worse. What? People who steal your musical instrument.
+
+[26:54] Oh my god, yeah. Yes, that's horrible. That's vicious. You know, there was a rash of like double bass thefts recently. I heard.
+
+[27:00] Yeah. Yeah. No, if you steal somebody's livelihood or somebody's form of artistic uh expression, like that's when I wish there was a hell for you to go to. You know what I mean? Anyways.
+
+[27:11] Did I answer your question about uh the ribs? But if there's a hell below, we're all gonna go. On off, on off. Make sure they're cool down. Let them come down to room temp.
+
+[27:22] Don't put them at 55 on the grill, or you'll be ruining Christmas. Uh unless you don't celebrate Christmas, in which case you'll be ruining the holiday of your choice. Uh yeah, but uh but tweet us, uh tweet us back. Let us know how it worked out. Okay.
+
+[27:35] All right, I got a uh well, let me let me answer one of these questions so I can actually say I answered a question that was uh typed into it. All right. This is from Chef Dante Martinez in Seattle. Uh so this is a West Coast program, apparently today. Uh I'm a chef in Seattle, and I have a very small kitchen.
+
+[27:53] Uh and the Twitter, if you want to look at the kitchen, is at the cottage uh baffle, both or botel. T H, but both or botel. Not brothel. Yeah, I think it's a typo. It's supposed to be a brothel.
+
+[28:03] You guys are the worst. What the heck is it with you people? Always in the gutter. Uh so uh chef has no gas. I use portable induction, sous vide, or as my relatives say, Suze vide.
+
+[28:15] Sous-vide uh and an oven. One of my hit menu items is my sous vide jerk chicken. Jerk, jerk. People, uh I whenever I see the word jerk, I have to say jerk that way. Why?
+
+[28:26] Because Dax also Dax also does it. Jerk. Anyway, uh, so he calls me that sometimes. He's like, Dad, don't be a jerk. You don't think the word jerk is really cool the way the K hits?
+
+[28:36] The J and the K? How old is Dax? He's 13. Uh-huh. And same mental age as me.
+
+[28:42] Dad, you're a jerk. Jerk. Jerk. Uh yeah, but although Booker calls me a jerk and honest more than Dax does. Like when he means it more than Dax does.
+
+[28:50] How old is Booker? 16. Okay. Yeah. He also calls me an idiot on a consequences.
+
+[28:55] That's normal, though. Fairly regular basis. Do you remind him that's a normal thing? Uh no. You should.
+
+[29:00] You should actually remind him that if he doesn't, then there's something seriously wrong with the universe. It is completely the way it's supposed to be, as just as you probably said the same things, or at least thought the same things, but weren't able to say them because it was a different time. Yeah, you weren't allowed to say that crap. You think kids should say that now though? What?
+
+[29:20] You think kids should be allowed to say that now? Um it's not a matter of whether they should. It's it's it's acknowledging the fact that they do. See, there's a big difference here between and can and can. Big difference here between Asian families and non-Asian families, too.
+
+[29:33] Well, I think culture. I never talked back to my parents ever. Ever. I would get smacked. Yeah, I didn't either.
+
+[29:40] I mean, yeah. And then I'd be shocked when my friends would like, yeah, call their parents stupid or whatever. Like, just out of the question. Good times. Okay, uh, so back to the question.
+
+[29:50] All right, so people people rave uh about Chef Martinez's uh jerk chicken, and it is good, but I want to take it to the next level. I would love to smoke the chicken with pimento wood. But it's pimento, by the way, pimento is allspice tree, right? So I've never seen the wood. Right.
+
+[30:09] Are you a fan of allspice people? You like all spice? I like allspice. Some spice? Allspice.
+
+[30:15] I like all spice. Yeah. Yeah. Jamaican pepper. Yamma.
+
+[30:18] Yeah. It's also known as Jamaican pepper. You got your allspice, your pimento, there's pimento tram, the liqueur. There's I like allspice. Anyway, uh, I've never had the, I've never used uh the wood.
+
+[30:28] So anyway, I would like to smoke with pimento wood, but it's just too dang expensive to import into Seattle. My question is is there a way to get the essence of the of the wood, that particular wood, into the jerk marinade. If I were to buy some wood, I have it imported. Could I capture the essence of the smoked wood into an oil or liquid? How would you solve this problem?
+
+[30:46] Uh thanks, uh Dante Martinez. Okay, here's the thing. Uh I looked it up, and dang, that stuff is expensive. Uh real expensive. Um, there is a Bradley.
+
+[30:55] First of all, you have a couple choices here. You can um you can par smoke stuff on the wood. For instance, uh, you can do liquids, liquids that are a little bit tackier, tend to take up smoke better. So people will smoke like, for instance, barbecue sauces and things like that. I looked up online, a lot of people are uh smoking like the un like onions.
+
+[31:15] So if you have a lot of onions in a sauce, like barbecue sauce, for instance, they'll cut up a bunch of those, smoke them, and then uh blend that into this into their sauce to get a smokier flavor. If I was gonna do it, I would probably do the sauce. You I don't think you're gonna find a liquid smoke. Maybe you will, I was not able to, that is specifically uh pimento wood, right? I also looked up, and it is not that expensive to buy um there's two there's two things I saw.
+
+[31:42] Bradley Smoker, which is you know, the Bradley smoker, makes these uh these pellets, these um, these like you know, pucks, these pellets. They have one called Caribbean wood, but I think they're liars. I think what they do is they put all spice the spice into uh mesquite chips, and I don't know whether all spice the spice and pimento wood the wood have similar smoke profiles. So I would test it, but since you probably know what you're talking about, since you've used it in the real life, you know, your mileage may vary. But there is someone who sells um pellets of pure, I think pure it said pimento wood, and it is quite pricey.
+
+[32:20] It is uh was sixty dollars or seventy dollars for 20 pounds, so it's like three dollars a pound or something like this. But you're burning about in a pellet smoker, you're burning about a pound to a pound and a half an hour, and uh you're not gonna smoke your sauce if you have it in lots of trays, and so you have tray, tray, tray, tray, tray, tray, tray in a smoker. You're not burning that much. Let's say you smoked your sauce for three hours, your marinade for three hours. I think you could get a good amount of flavor into that, or if you're doing the onions, you could do even less, probably like 45 minutes, and you can get a good amount of flavor, and it's costing you between three and six dollars an hour.
+
+[32:53] So the question is how much sauce can you load in to your box and then just factor out your cost that way. But I think that's probably the way I would I would I would do it. But I don't know that you know, I don't know that you're gonna find any commercially available. I mean, if you went to a flavor house and you're like, I'm making a jerk uh saying fake this smell, they would do it. You know, how accurately they would fake it, I don't know.
+
+[33:16] But yeah, I think you you could probably do it for fairly economical price the real way this way. That's what I would do. Because those smokers aren't that expensive, and you can jerry rig one if you can't, you know, can't buy one. What do you think? Yes, no, yeah, yeah?
+
+[33:27] Yeah. Plausible, yeah. Alright. We'll take a break, come back with more cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades.
+
+[33:49] Dave, we have a question from a listener about Bob's paleo pancake mix. Michaela wants to know if she has to make pancakes or if there are other creative ways to use it. The ingredients are almond flour, arrowroot starch, organic coconut flour, organic coconut sugar, sea salt, cream of the cream of tartar, and baking soda. No, so this is basically a not this is an ingredient mix that you could use similar to bisquick, but in so anything you would use bisquick for, but you want kind of a gluten-free slash uh farmed grain free uh kind of a recipe, you could substitute it out for. I mean, I don't know how many cave people were making pancakes.
+
+[34:27] It seems like not kind of a cave person thing to do, but yeah, any one of those, it's basically a bisquick sub. If you want to experiment with paleo pancake mix, go to Bob'sredmill.com and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order. Well, the jerk store called. They're running out of you.
+
+[35:00] Nice. Alright, so I didn't wait. So I got a couple things I gotta get to real quick before we do anything else. Do we have any callers? Not currently.
+
+[35:08] Okay, so tell me about the what's new about the new book? What's different about this book as opposed to the first book? It's kind of a guide to making sourdough at home. It covers a lot of the breads that we make at Sullivan Street Bakery, plus some items that we used to make once upon a time, plus some things that we don't, just kind of for fun. It covers a lot of different techniques and methods for making and putting together dough, both no need and needing.
+
+[35:37] Sourdough used extensively through the book. Some fermentation of vegetables, which is something I enjoy doing, and something we incorporate at the cafe and uh um yeah, it's just a lot of fun. True or false. The average person who has sourdough at home, the starter is much like I was at the beginning of the show, spent and nasty, right? It's just been sitting too long, it's out of breath, it's like you know, and then well, what happens to a sourdough is that the microbes go into, depending on the the uh the state of the start of the starter, whether it's a liquid starter or a more of a solid starter, but but basically what happens when a when the dough reaches a certain level of acidity, like below 4.2, uh all of the you could say the flora, the microbes that would be useful for making bread form cysts, like shells.
+
+[36:36] Um and those shells protect the you know the organism, uh, and the organism basically stays the yeast or and and in some cases bacteria. Uh some certain classes of bacteria basically stay uh suspended until the conditions change in the substrate. Right, but they're relative, they're relative balance also gets too much. Yeah, so I mean, you could have a like globule of if it's real sourdough starter uh that's been in your fridge for like you know nine months or something, you could theoretically s cut off or scrape off all the mold and just take like a hunk of it, and it should under the right conditions. Oh so you so you're a so you for most people at home you're a fan of the of the real solid starter.
+
+[37:19] Um I actually like I think if you use a a solid starter over time that it influences the flavor profile of the f of the of the final loaf of bread. Negatively or positively or just affect differently, differently. I think positively. I think um I prefer using uh and also just for management to manage more. Right.
+
+[37:40] The average person at home wants something that they can use between twice and like 0.25 times a month, and it's going to be consistent and they can bring back to life within one day. Yeah, I mean that's that's the yeah, that's the thing. So you just have to, like everything else in life that's worthwhile, practice. And also in my book, we give you lots of different tips on things to be aware of. They're but you think for that baking schedule, a more solid starter is the best way to sure.
+
+[38:12] For sure. Because things are always happen slower in that. Uh I yeah. I mean, I took also um, you know, I you can dehydrate a sourdough starter very easily. Letting it um putrefy, literally acidify, putrefy, basically is the word.
+
+[38:28] Um, and you know, drop to an acidity of like three point eight or 4.2 or lower, but um, and then you can create a slurry, and if you have a dehydrator at home, uh you could uh put a like basically uh a a sh a s a schmear of of the slurry of the liquid on uh parchment paper and just let it dehydrate only only a new yorker thinks the word schmear is even remotely appetizing well then we well it's like more like a I think you think of bagel or something like that. Um putrefies the word that I use to describe yeah all right so you spread it out you dehyd what like the lowest lowest setting uh yeah yeah uh yeah or or like you know uh in an oven with uh with the uh like the utility light on over and something like that just something to dry it out you could even just leave it on a I mean you could leave it on uh you know just to dry out on your counter but then there is always that risk of spoilage organisms alighting on it. Hey spoilage organism my favorite kind of organism so and then how long does that take to bring back to life? Um if it's a i i i I mean I kept a starter in my freezer for after it had dried like four years. But how long does it take to make a blow like oh yeah yeah no it within within 24 hours it was it was already active just just so you could bake within 24 how many I would take the dry starter I would add it I would kind of bring it back to life in a more a wetter environment.
+
+[40:09] Like one to one or water, add some flour, put it uh put it into a like a clean, a very a very clean uh uh mason jar with the lid screwed tight. And the reason why I say put the lid on tight is because then you can see if the dough is the liquid is beginning to gas because the lid will pop a little bit, and that's always a good sign. And we've got to remember that yeasts uh the that make our beer and our wine taste good and our bread tastes good are anaerobes. They're just as happy without oxygen as they are with, you know. For folks at home, you use you rocking AP in your starter or what?
+
+[40:51] Oh what? You use an AP? An AP? A P flour. Oh no, I I only use at the bakery, we only use winter wheat.
+
+[40:58] Yeah, for home people, home peeps. Okay, we use we use a flour that we only use winter wheat. Quinter wheat. We use the um winter wheat because it it's less likely to have glyphosate uh residu uh residues on it. Um I also just like the um you typically the flavor pro subtle, nuanced flavor of uh of winter wheats.
+
+[41:26] Um you know, wheat in and of itself does not have pronounced flavor profiles. It really is, it's all very, very subtle. And uh that is when it's just as raw flour. It's only when it's fermented that you can actually coax out some other flavor profiles. Same like grapes.
+
+[41:45] Yeah, just like grapes. It's like any anything that ferments, you know. I mean, it's all about the the choice of the primary materials are are are the most important thing. So Peter Kim, I don't know if you know this. Jim Leahy hates Martin's potato rolls.
+
+[41:59] What? No, I don't. You last at a no. You were like I was like, what bread that everyone loves do you think is garbage? And you said Martin's potato?
+
+[42:05] No, I mean, but I'm saying it's a no, I I mean I'm sorry, in defense of Martin's potatoes and rolls. I'm getting a lot of people. You're kinda welcome here. We've got confirmation in the booth here that you did say that. Oh Jesus.
+
+[42:15] Yeah. I don't know, Jim. Because Dave was like, I remember that. That was true. He said that.
+
+[42:21] So so I mean they're not when you put your burgers on them. It's I don't I don't I don't want to be a bread fascist. It's not. Martin's a. This is a post-Trump thing with you.
+
+[42:29] You don't all of a sudden you don't want to be a bread fascist. Like all of a sudden. You just I'm trying to uh uh avoid embracing fascistic ideas in the age of Trump, which I don't think is a a bad thing. And by the way, Michelle Wolf was fucking genius. Hey, hey.
+
+[42:46] Hey, family show with the cursing. It's it's you can't stop us. Michelle Wolfe for president. Well, first of all, a political show, David Dave in the booth, a political show. That's all I just think I will say that she did not insult Sarah Huckabee Sanders' appearance.
+
+[43:01] People who say that she insulted her parents are mistaken. They are lying just like she does on a daily basis. No, what do you're what they're what they're admitting. Oh what they are admitting this show is about cooking. I know, but what they're admitting, this is a this is also about life, brother.
+
+[43:17] What they're admitting by attacking the comedian is what they really think themselves. So it's almost like the people who are defending her are insulting her. Yes, I get I get what you're saying. Yeah. I get what you're saying.
+
+[43:31] So they're not listening to the the actual text. Anyway, talk about that. The other thing is I don't understand, like I don't understand why people want to like expose themselves. Comedians expose themselves to being roasted because they're used to it. They give, they take.
+
+[43:46] But like to like hire someone whose job it is to skewer you, to skewer you, and then be upset when you get skewered seems Well, but the problem is is the person who is meant to be skewered refused to show up. Oh, wait, wait, wait. All right. All right, wait. What are we talking?
+
+[43:59] We were talking about bread, I thought. Martin's do it on the other hand. Let me tell you something that's true. People, the airport phenomenon of people trying to use crusty bread that they then refrigerate and make a sandwich out of it, and it's overly dry. All those people should be thrown into a wood chip.
+
+[44:22] I love those kinds of sandwiches, as you know, Dave. Peter Kim has eaten moldy egg salad out of a gas station sandwiches, which is I've seen him do it. Cast iron. Moldy egg salad sandwiches. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[44:35] It's the best kind. You don't really get the flavor of the egg until it's coaxed out by the but what type of molds. He didn't even test it, man. He's a he's a rocks and wild. It's bare bag in his mold there.
+
+[44:45] In the laboratory of the mouth. But my point being that the laboratory of the mouth. My point being that I think for a lot, especially of an American style sandwiches, the way that they're built is a soft with uh roll with not a lot of crust structure is helpful sometimes. Yeah. I agree.
+
+[45:03] But you're like, I just don't like those. No, no, I I wasn't. I I I think you're misinterpreting. What I'm what I was what I was what I was trying to express was that I think I had said it good bread is back. Bad bread is back.
+
+[45:18] Meaning that you know, twenty like 15 years ago, 20 years ago, you you know, a restaurateur or a chef wouldn't think about using a Martin's roll. Whereas now it's okay because it's become sort of like this very popularized. But you're saying it's bad. Low country. No, it's not, it's just a type of bread.
+
+[45:39] It's an enriched, it's an enriched bread. It has this. You know what the issue is. You're freaking mofad guy. It has a whole historical precedent behind it.
+
+[45:44] It's not in a vacuum. The issue is Martin. Yeah. The real issue with Martin's is that it's got a very narrow toast window. So it burns very quickly.
+
+[45:59] You have to be careful with Martin's potato rolls because it goes from lightly toasted to burnt very, very quickly. It's got plastic inside. And that's why it burns so quickly. Have you ever lit a Martin's roll on fire? It actually begins to drip.
+
+[46:16] He's making stuff up. You're making things up. Like, do you ever take a CD? Big news. You ever take a CD and you light it on fire?
+
+[46:21] Oh boy. Here we go. And then like in the in the in the the same thing. Okay, this this demands empirical proof. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:28] This is just not. This is this is what I think. This is what we trade our buggy as a lie. This could be no, we can we can we can actually torch up some some Martin's buns for fun. Listen, do you know what it could be it could be viral?
+
+[46:39] We could even after they cool down, we could even have bread face roll her face and burnt bread. Bread bread face was like that's one of my nicknames, breadface. No, yeah, but the bread face, she's really famous online. She's got millions of followers. I don't know.
+
+[46:55] I don't know this. Did she have a face made of bread? Listen, I'm not sure. No, no, she rolls her face in bread. Oh, I don't make sense to me.
+
+[47:00] It's a fetish. Okay. It's a feather. She's never rolled her face in the face. Is that like the stinky feet animal smashing you fetish, which someone showed me?
+
+[47:08] It's amazing. I have never seen that one. It's amazing. And I never large large animals with stone feet stepping on people. It's a thing.
+
+[47:15] But uh do you know, you know, Josh Eden shorty? I love I love Josh Eden. He's he's saying at the new bar we're gonna be ordering bread from you. Is that true? Awesome.
+
+[47:22] I guess that's true. He doesn't know this that I'm talking to you right now. Do you ever do any custom work for people if they ask for something specific? If the volume is there, yes. What if the volume is not there?
+
+[47:32] But I asked pretty please. Um I'm I'm as a one-off. Um it might be more likely that I could go in and show you how to make something. I just want I I I can do it with your bread. I can do it to your bread, but I would love like a Bianca style thing with caraway and salt on top.
+
+[47:47] Uh-huh. It's always possible. Because I like a Kamu. That's the seeds so easy. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[47:52] Seeds and salt. Seeds don't stress me out. All right, we gotta think about wrapping this thing up. Oh, so Peter, Peter. That's the title of my next book, by the way.
+
+[47:58] Seeds and salt. No, seeds don't stress me out. Seeds don't stress me out. Yeah. So, Peter, for the Museum of Food and Drink, what other than being a dad, which is amazing.
+
+[48:07] Uh, what have you come to pimp out on the on the museum? You want I don't come here to just pimp out things, man. No, whenever I ask you to come on just to show up, you're like, I'm too busy, busy, busy. So there's gotta be something you're pimping out for the museum. Well, I'm always pimping stuff, but no, I mean we've got new uh new exhibits up.
+
+[48:21] We've got the chickens, including your boy I am Samani. Uh who is? Are you Samani? Yeah, no, I am Samani, not you. So uh we've got you seen this all black chicken?
+
+[48:32] Yeah. All black chicken, bones black, meat black, feathers black, eyes black, all black. All black and black black black. Even the whites of his eyes are black. All black everything.
+
+[48:41] Yeah, everything. So uh we've got a bunch of chickens. So, you can breed. Yeah, dude, probably. Yeah, I know.
+
+[48:48] It's it's awesome. We have giant we have a giant like leg horn. Gigantic leg horn. And so like every time I pass it, I'm like, I'm like, I'll say I'll say boy. Every time I pass it, I do the I'll say, I'll say it.
+
+[48:59] Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we've got uh we have the the Model T of refrigeration, the first domestically available electric refrigerator. Very first one. And in fact, low serial number and like unrefinished, like like pristine.
+
+[49:13] We decided to not refinish. It's not because we didn't have the money to refinish it, that was a control decision. By the way, this fridge changed this fridge changed everything. So it turns out General Electric Corporation is like, we make electricity. How are we gonna sell this crap?
+
+[49:26] And they're like, I know. We'll put a refrigerator in people's house, and then they're gonna use electricity all the time. Yeah. And that's what they did. Yeah.
+
+[49:33] Yeah, yeah. So that's why General Electric got into the refrigerator business because they were selling electricity. Yeah. So we got all that. We've got a lot of programs we just launched.
+
+[49:42] We have a honey tasting this Thursday. We're doing pairings with uh cheese and uh the stuff. Next week we have something with your boy Don Lee, uh looking at agave spirits. Oh, yeah. Just looking at them, no tasting.
+
+[49:55] Yeah, that's right, that's right. And uh do you still have tickets available for the uh benefit? Yeah, yeah. The gala's coming up on May 17, celebrating biodiversity or honoring Dave Chang. And and I think my new bar, I think my new bar existing conditions is making cocktails for it.
+
+[50:09] So come out and see existing conditions team. And then we have the after party after that with um Jarobi of a Tribe Called Quest. Nice. Do you know Josh Josh, our chef, Josh Josh Eden, friends with the Tribe Called Quest? Nice.
+
+[50:21] Yeah. By the way, I'm a Jerobi from a Tribe Called Quest. There you are. How are you doing? So I'm uh I'm allowed to talk about the new bar.
+
+[50:30] It's called Existing Conditions. We're opening in May on West 8th Street. So look for us. Uh, you know, we'll be there. Um and I'm opening up my bakery, reopening my retail shop on 47th Street this Thursday.
+
+[50:44] It used to be such a crap hole back in the day when you opened when you first moved the uh the uh production up there, it was such a crap hole. This is beautiful bread you brought. How long is that bread? It's really long. And and you can get this really beautiful.
+
+[50:56] Peter, you got to Instagram this out. All right, this is the long Bianca Lady in the trap moment. Oh my god. No mouth moment. Here we go.
+
+[50:59] All right. Jim, look this way. Tim. There we go. For the listeners.
+
+[51:10] There we go. In Radio Land, Dave and Jim are eating a baguette from opposite end. It's not a baguette. Actually, yeah, I wasn't even looking when I said that. That's um Oh, what the hell is this?
+
+[51:20] What is this uh open? It's a si it's like the six-foot sub of of Bianca's. Yeah. Is it actually six foot long? That's awesome.
+
+[51:29] Harvard and my can I give this to the museum staff? Yeah, of course. Nice. Just uh watch the crumbs in my studio, okay? Oh, me, me, me, watch the crumbs in my studio.
+
+[51:38] You guys have people coming here smoking the weed all the time, and you you're worried about a little bread? We're not like that anymore. Oh come on. Yeah, please. So uh by the way, these chickens are cool.
+
+[51:49] Come on, see it. Fun fact on chickens. Crumbs, by the way, are illegal. What? If if someone finds crumbs in your in your recording studio, you could theoretically be arrested for it.
+
+[52:03] Whereas little bits was little bits of gandra are okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Yeah, just the the leaves. The uh what's that stuff called?
+
+[52:09] The uh the the Oh don't act like you don't know. Shake, shake. The tricrumbs? Shake. So anyway.
+
+[52:14] Dave on drugs would be a scary thing. Yeah, uh, you know, I think you were chilling. I'm told this people think that I'm uh high on cocaine, right? No, you're not. I can't wait.
+
+[52:25] What's what's the InfoWars guy? InfoWars Milo? Alex Jones. Alex. Yeah, yeah, Dave on drugs is Alex Jones.
+
+[52:34] I only know Tom Jones. The singer. I would love to be like that. Uh what's new Pussycat? Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[52:41] Yeah, I love that. Anyway, so my point is. Sleeping Anna. What's that? I don't know that one.
+
+[52:43] Sleeping Analyya. Okay. Anyway, so uh ch fun fact about chickens, people that you will learn when you come to the museum. I'm an explorer. Wow.
+
+[52:54] I'm a human. Excellent. Chickens domesticated, Peter, for what reason? For entertainment. For fighting.
+
+[53:04] Fighting. Not for meat, not necessarily for eggs, for fighting. That's right. And it was the wild men. And they're pretty vicious when they fight.
+
+[53:12] Yeah, and we have some fighting chickens that are taxidermy. By the way, they all died of natur they all died naturally. Yeah, naturally, because a knife went through their throats. But they're prime but in their prime, they were they were. The last thing we need is a PETA loss.
+
+[53:25] Don't we all die now? Don't we all die naturally, people? But the uh the point is that uh that they were domesticated for fighting. We have uh some fighting chickens there. Uh we have lots of interesting breeds.
+
+[53:36] Come see them. Uh it's the only, I think the only display of kind of cross-cultural, cross-time, domesticated uh taxidermy that I've ever seen. Yeah. Yeah. How many we got there right now?
+
+[53:49] Like 18, 19. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
+
+[53:52] And uh we've re-jiggered uh chow, the exhibit, so come come see it, come hang out, come to the museum. Buy tickets to the gala, go to mofad.org to purchase tickets, correct? Yep. Or do you have some sort of eventbrite.snop.crap. No, no, no.
+
+[54:04] MoFat.org. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And uh thanks to Jim.
+
+[54:08] Thanks to uh Pom Jim. F bomb Jim and From Peter Kim. Cooking issues. Far from F bomb. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[54:27] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[54:53] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code CookingIssues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues Coming Deal live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like roughly 12 to like roughly 1245, 1 o'clock, from Burner's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Today we have BDX Crew in the house. She counts as BDX crew. It's true.
+
+[0:56] BX bar crew. When I say BDX crew, I mean BDX. Yeah, he always forgets I helped him open the bar. So call in all of your BDX cocktail-related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:14] Since we have a rather large- Oh, by the way, the reason we're doing this uh BDX reunion now is because I've wanted to do it for a long time. And uh we're about to open, it's not Booker and Dax, and everyone here has gone on, except for the one person who's gonna work with me in this group. Yeah, has gone on to do very interesting things. So this is in advance of the new bar existing conditions opening. Uh it's coming, we promise.
+
+[1:40] That's that's Jack Shram, our one cent future head bartender. Uh I can never escape Dave, and I would never choose to. All right, let's uh so let's go. Why don't we start? Start with you, Jack.
+
+[1:51] We'll go around the room, we'll say who's in it, we'll say who's in here, and then we'll then we'll just get going. Sure. Hi, it's Jack Shram, uh future head bartender of existing conditions, former bar back at Booker and Dax, also bartender, head bartender. Here's hello, this is Robbie Nelson. I was uh the general manager of Booker and Dax uh very early on, and now working uh with Plymouth Gin and Perno Ricard.
+
+[2:15] Uh my name is Nicholas Bennett. I was the former bar captain of Booker and Dax, and now I'm the head bartender at uh Porch Light, uh part of Union Square Hospitality Group. When you sing when you say Porch Light in your head, do you sing it in Neil Diamond voice? Always. Every single time.
+
+[2:30] My name is Donnie Clutterbuck, and I used to work at Booker and Dax. Now I am the head bartender at Cure, one of the many cures in Rochester, New York. And uh you can't trademark that name because it's a common word. So everybody uses it. And now I travel around and talk about spreadsheets and citrus fruit.
+
+[2:45] Well, also, like you're also like your USB G all that sort of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean how long do we have? Right? I don't know. Just tell them what you do.
+
+[2:51] So yeah, I'm the founder and a founder and the president of the Rochester USB G chapter. I own an app called Poor Cost, which is a way to find out what it costs you to serve things from a milliliter bottle in ounces at dollars at a percentage for free. And what else do I do? I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[3:08] I drink coffee in the morning and coffee at night. Nice. And that's that's that's that. That's we need an app that's just pork cost. It's cost of every cut of pork.
+
+[3:17] How much does your pork cost you? What have I turned it into ham? Hello, I'm Felipe. Uh former resident, beautiful boy at Booker and Dax. Uh currently bartending at Blacktail.
+
+[3:30] Hey, I'm Derek Cram. Uh I was part of the last generation at Booker and Dax, uh, now at PDT. Yeah. Uh Stacey Swenson, uh former bartender at Booker and Dax. Um at Dante and Dante at Genuine, uh, where I'm the head bartender and creative consultant for uh Simple Serve.
+
+[3:51] And and general party time good have her. Now Dante Genuine, unrelated to Genuine the Rapper. Well, not technically unrelated to the different spellings. Affiliated by enjoyment. Yes, yes.
+
+[4:06] Uh so anyway, so uh we'll just talk about things. Uh we already have a BDX question, someone wants to know some specs. I'm sure everyone's gonna ask specs. Uh if anyone calls in, they're just gonna have us shoot the breeze here, which is also fine. But I figured we'd make a drink.
+
+[4:18] So uh sorry, not pronouncard on this one, but Heaven Hill came and did a tasting, and they left us a bottle of um, it's just gonna show you how like the mentality works at the cat the like old Booker and Dax mentality, hopefully we keep this mentality. So they show up and they show us this uh sacred bond, you know, uh American brandy, which is good and a good price. Yeah, and of course I just run around the room saying word is bond, girls I'm sugar, like running around like an idiot, calling the spirit word is bond and not ever saying the word sacred. Uh and then we're tasting it, and I think Jack and I both looked at it was like, why have we never made a why in all of the years we never made ourselves a milkwash sidecar? What what were we thinking?
+
+[4:59] Yeah, first of all, like sidecar, sidecar is one of those drinks, and you guys will, you know, disagree with me, of course, because you're humans. But um sidecar is one of those drinks that I always want to love a lot, and I never quite love it a lot. And I know all of you who know me know that I have an issue with like heavy wood, heavy acid on a shake. And so, you know, the yak. Anyway, so we're not using yak on this, because uh standard side cars, of course, yak.
+
+[5:25] Do the classic specs have added simple syrup, or is it just cointreau yak and lemon? That's like the original daisy. And by the way, garbagey spec. It's a garbage. Any simple.
+
+[5:35] Yeah, it needs simple, it needs simple. Yeah, file that onto the long list of garbage classic specs and knowing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, it's bad, bad people, just terrible people. Uh anyway, so uh we milkwashed some of the uh it's sacred bond, not word, sacred bond.
+
+[5:54] We uh milkwashed some of that. I should say that's why I was late because I was at the new bar milkwashing. So I milkwashed that, and I have a new thing for all of you. Uh so one of the things we did at Booker and Dax a lot was uh acid adjusting, right? We would take our juices and a jack uh adjustment.
+
+[6:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We would adjust them, we would adjust them uh up to the acidity of lemon or lime juice. But so we were working actually for a new drink at the bar, the celery drink. Yeah. And uh, and I thought I was like, you know, I kind of want just more citrus, more, more, more.
+
+[6:26] So I was like, well, why have we never done OJ into simple syrup? So this is now OJ into simple syrup. So we have OJ turned into simple syrup, lemon juice. So instead of replacing the quanch with OJ syrup, and we're also, by the way, so I'll tell you a couple little secrets here for calculating uh bricks adjusting up to simple syrup. This recipe only works, only works for adjusting two one-to-one simple syrup.
+
+[6:49] If you want to adjust to any other bricks, you must, by the way, bricks just means percentage sugar by weight. Anyway, deal with that. Yeah, so it's not just equal parts, sugar, and juice, it is bricks adjusted to 50. Right, bricks adjusted to 50. So here's how you here's how you do it.
+
+[7:02] You look up on the internets, or if you have a refractometer, as we do, you look up the bricks of the thing you have, and and here's the magic formula. If you want any other ratio any other like, you know, bricks, if you want to do two-to-one simple syrup, then you're on your own. Go figure out the math. But just multiply the bricks by two and subtract that from a hundred. So orange juice is 11.8 bricks, that's 23.6 subtract from 100 is 76.4?
+
+[7:28] Something like that. So that formula always works. So then if you have a hundred grams of OJ, you add 76 and change grams of sugar, and you're good. Very simple formula. Just multiply the bricks by two, subtract from a hundred.
+
+[7:40] Multiply by two. Assuming you're starting with a hundred grams, scale up accordingly. Well, everything's by a hundred. Yeah, everything's by hundreds. By the hundred weight.
+
+[7:47] Not the ice company. The hundred weight of nothing against the ice company, I'm just saying unrelated. All right, Dave, before I make this, how about we open one of our bottled specialties that are let's do it. And what's oh awesome. So what what Jack, tell them what you're opening here.
+
+[8:04] So the first thing we're gonna open is a one of our Booker and Axe bottled Manhattans. This one happened to be bottled on July 10th, 2015. It's been in my freezer. Well, it actually traveled with me to New Orleans uh for the cat program in 2015, and I never opened it because we were so liquored up the whole week. You know, it's just it's tough.
+
+[8:25] Uh so I just brought it home and jammed it in my freezer until an opportune moment such as this one. Not frozen, but the fridge freezer, you know, it's been fleezing in a chilled environment. Except for the time it was in my suitcase and then in a mini-bar fridge for six days. I still have a bottle of chartreuse lying around, but I don't know where it is. It's at the bar.
+
+[8:43] Okay. Uh by the way, for those of you, for those of you that uh, you know, all of you obviously are family, and I hope to see you at the new bar on a constant basis. But remember, we used to store all of our bottled drinks and our carbo drinks in these refrigerators, and they were a real pain in the behind from a service standpoint because they would rattle and move in and out. Remember our glasses used to fall off and shatter, and then like they would go out of out of temperature, and then people wouldn't put the stuff back in, and I would start screaming and yelling. Remember this?
+
+[9:13] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So at the new place, we could talk about this because they printed it in the newspaper. We're gonna have vending machines, and the vending machines are going to keep it at exactly the temperature.
+
+[9:25] And so we're gonna have bottled stuff behind the bar too, but people who want to order it can literally just plop a token in the vending machine and yank the drinks. How sick is that? That's awesome. Crazy. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:34] We can't do the Bennett martini because we need something new. Well, maybe we'll make some Bennett Martini. The three eighths, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:42] What olive did you use in that? Was that uh we're gonna share this, right? Starting to do that. Yeah, we gotta start with we've got two glasses to start with steakbones. So we're gonna go around, we'll meet in the middle.
+
+[9:49] So uh so we could talk about bottled cocktails if anyone cares about bottled cocktails. Uh one more thing I'm gonna say about the fake sidecar. We'll need it if we like it, which I have no idea. I'm making the classic mistake that uh what's his name? Uh what's his name?
+
+[10:00] Thomas Keller yelled at me for, which making something I've never made before in front of a bunch of people is like, you're an idiot, you're stupid. I'm like, well, thanks, I'll take that. Uh but we're gonna shake it with an orange, because we don't have shake ice, and I don't have the BDX cocktail cubes. Because whenever I do a demonstration, like like somewhere else abroad, I bring a BDX cocktail cube with me, and then invariably I give it to the person who I'm working with at the event. So I don't have any, so you can get the same the cocktail cube is something to add the texture of shake ice.
+
+[10:30] And by the way, you can get that texture by shaking with a large piece of citrus in your tin, but if you do it, you're infringing on my patent, and I will sue you. Drink is no good shake with the orange. No, everybody has to shake a drink with an orange. Well, it does actually add a little bit of uh where insta Instagram It does add a little bit of uh like zest flavor, which I also enjoyed. Still good, still tastes good.
+
+[10:55] How many of these do you want me to make? Should I just make one so we can see if it's good and then make more if it is good? Yeah, do you have this? Do you have the salt? I brought the salt uh the salt?
+
+[11:01] I don't need it. Oh, perfect. Nice. All right, yeah, make one. So the question for you guys, now you're all, you know, I know where your relative palates are, and you know where my relative palate is.
+
+[11:10] How close to three quarters do you want to get on this? I'm doing uh like fat half. Fat half? Are you guys okay with fat half? Yeah, I'm okay with it.
+
+[11:18] Taste the taste the word milk wash word is bond. It's good. It's it's light. One of the issues with uh wooded spirits for me is that they get uh, especially in shaking cocktails when they're extra diluted and extra cold, gets that woody. So if you milkwash, it's uh Jack just took a pull straight out the bottle.
+
+[11:38] Uh all right, cool. All right, so we're shaking with an orange, infringing on my own patent uh and mixing it. So I don't think that's how that works. What uh Nastasi, why do you have my phone by the way? No, I was texting David from my phone.
+
+[11:51] Um, all right, because I need to look. Why don't you read me the call? Well, do we have any callers by the way? Dave, do you want me to keep the sticker on the orange when I shake with it? Uh that's the added flavor.
+
+[12:00] And it's a sign that I washed them beforehand. Dave, I'm waiting for a call. We had a guy who called in twice before you got here. So, you know, such is life. Such is life.
+
+[12:10] Uh all right, so we had a question. Uh, this is about sauce. Any of you guys cook uh cook sauces? No? Yes, no, asking a group of bartenders about cooking sauce.
+
+[12:20] What about? I was in a place recently where uh half the menu spelled sauce like sauce, and the rest of the menu spelled sauce like sauce. What's their definitely a difference between the two or though? I think so. Like it seemed like sauce was cooler.
+
+[12:34] It was just a mistranslation, but definitely sauce is what I wanted. You know what I mean? And they had they had a dish called what was it called? Super mixed chops. Super mixed chops.
+
+[12:43] Super mixed chops. So here's my concept. You ready? We take we take uh lamb chop. We gotta get different sizes, but pork, lamb, beef, and then we meat glue them into a super chop, low temperature it, keep the pork on the outside so that it cooks higher.
+
+[12:57] Pork, then I guess lamb then beef, and then or maybe like pork, lamb, beef, pork, so that the you know, thinner. And then we have that's a super mixed chop, and of course served with sour. Souse. Uh the Manhattan was delicious, by the way, and perfectly preserved thanks to the magic liquid nitrogen. I'm gonna taste this word as Bond uh sidecar.
+
+[13:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. It's delicious. Okay, caller, you're on the air. We have to come up with a name caller for this drink if we actually like it.
+
+[13:27] I was thinking something California-based. Is there an easy rider cocktail? There is now. Because he had did he have a sidecar on his motorcycle? No, he of course not.
+
+[13:35] He didn't he was completely unsocialized. He didn't like people. Like, why would he want another person with him on his bike? Anyway, uh, go ahead. Hi, my friend.
+
+[13:43] This is Dana Corey. Hey! Dana, Dana Corey, also from Booker and Dax. Uh my question, my question is what's your fascination with dairy, man? My fascination with dairy.
+
+[13:58] Okay, Dana, Dana, Dana Corey. Tell the story. Dana Corey. Well known, afraid of milk. Like a fear, afear.
+
+[14:06] A feared of milk. And this being a family show, I cannot tell you the story. But if if Dana comes over to existing conditions sometime after we open it, anyone who can hear our voices comes, we will tell you the story of Dana Cory and milk. By the way, the interesting thing about this story is that this is a story that could make someone afraid of milk who was not already afraid of milk. Dana Dana showed up with uh uh already with a fear of milk.
+
+[14:36] It's like Indiana Jones already afraid of snakes, gets dropped into the snake pit. It's horrific. That's good. Yeah, it's real good. That tastes good.
+
+[14:45] Yeah. Easy rider. How are you doing, Dana? I'm doing great and wonderful. Excited to see the new bar.
+
+[14:52] You know, just waiting my chance to pop in. Yeah, you go. Dana, you live in the great land of mozzarella, but true or false, like until relatively recent hoboken, by the way. Oh, much, yeah. Yeah, but until until recently, though, you didn't uh you weren't like down with how good your your your mozzarella was, right?
+
+[15:09] Oh yeah, we it's the best, the best. The best. Even you like it even though it's dairy, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I can actually get down with it.
+
+[15:18] Uh I have uh breakfast with Robbie Nelson from time to time, and I even had put milk in my coffee. He's witnesses. You're just getting better and better, man. All right, getting better and better. See, I like uh so one of my favorite things because Dana is formerly was uh at Miami, is we like talking about the bath salts murderer.
+
+[15:34] Remember the bass salts? Oh, yeah. Did he murder that guy or just eat his face? Did that guy survive? I there were several, right?
+
+[15:41] I don't know. I I don't think I'd want to uh to make it too bad. Bass salts. I think he lived. Bassalt the E T lived.
+
+[15:49] You don't need a face. No, the Etor got shot to death. The E Tor died. Yes. He was shot to death.
+
+[15:55] Yeah, bad sense. Miami, give me some Miami. And also, Dana and I both have a love, stupid love, uh, inappropriate love for Quad City DJs. I think. At least he indulges me with my love of the quad city DJs.
+
+[16:10] Yeah. Come on, Radic train. Chew right now. Anyway, uh definitely excited to see you at the bar. Uh wanna come check you out and you know, have a little fun.
+
+[16:23] Nice. All right, come by. We won't make you drink milk. We won't make you drink milk. Although we now have cream syrup on the menu.
+
+[16:29] And we probably have new technology though, so it's a good idea. So here's the thing. One of the problems I had at Booker and Dax pissed me off. Pissed me off for like was that uh no one would get the pumps to so we could pump cream syrup and butter. We're not gonna bring the cold butter syrup, are we back?
+
+[16:48] Are we that was Dana? Dana's least favorite. Dana, that scared the crap out of me. I never worked with Dana, but I would always hear about once the managers left how he would actively 86 nitro metal drinks. No, no, no, we're out of that.
+
+[17:01] No, don't have it. Just the lavender drink. Just the lavender drink. My other uh, my other favorite, my other favorite Dana thing, and I don't I wasn't actually there for it. I missed it by a couple of hours.
+
+[17:12] Was uh we very, very rarely, rarely had to throw people out of Booker and Dacks. Yeah, yeah, we had a good crowd. But someone came in and touched one of the crew. Like, someone came in and touched one of the a female crew member. Like kicked Dags, I thought.
+
+[17:28] Really? He just tried like just like like like leapt from behind the bar, picked up this human, and threw him like garbage onto the street. Super impressive. One of the big guys. Yeah, he was good.
+
+[17:44] But I could just see that. Like no facial. I can see Dana with no facial expression at all. Just being like, nah. And then just like turning around the bar and just like hurling this dude out onto the street.
+
+[17:55] Amazing. Good times. Good times. Good times. Hey, uh, Dana, are you familiar in Hoboken with the clam broth house sign?
+
+[18:06] Yeah, yeah. Oh, here we go. Clam broth house, man. Righty. Clam broth, right?
+
+[18:13] There's one that's hit, and there's one here. There's one over there, and there's one right here. Get your clam broth. All Steve Ador is 50% off. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:20] I totally want that clam broth house sign, man. We gotta steal that some gun. We gotta build a clam broth cannon before we have this. Yeah, you gotta steal that for me, Dana. And the other thing is that uh, you know, uh, you know, partner in crime, Don Lee, evil cocktail overlord, who could not be here today because we have a tasting with press, you know, opening business, so he like um he is like no one likes clam broth, and I won't serve it at the bar.
+
+[18:43] I'm like, dude, clam broth is like clam chowder minus everything Dana hates, minus the milk. It's like clam chowder minus the stuff you don't like. That seems to me make a bloody marry out of that. There you go. I think it's hot though, man.
+
+[18:55] That'd be like kind of nasty. We gotta build the hot broth cannon. Do you guys remember at Booker and Dax? Every year we were invited for the uh Bloody Mary contest. Every year we did something conceptual, and every year we lost.
+
+[19:07] We once did the the hot uh the hot tomato soup, Bloody Mary, and served it with a grilled tree sandwich. Yep. I recall. Yeah. I had to track down uh craft singles uh cheese in a snowstorm.
+
+[19:20] It was great. Except no other. Uh yeah, but it was cold as hell, and we're serving like grilled cheese sandwiches, and we still didn't lose because we're like, it doesn't taste like a bloody marry. Duh. Duh.
+
+[19:30] It tastes better. It's better. It's a grilled cheese sandwich. Who doesn't like if you can eat cheese, you like a grilled cheese sandwich, right? That's a fact.
+
+[19:38] Yeah, I mean, that's just straight delicious. Straight delicious. All right, all right. So wait, stay on in case anyone has it. By the way, Dana's caller in the case.
+
+[19:46] I want another caller, but Dana also goes to these very kind of not well known um like cultural things on Cape Cod. Are you allowed to describe those or are those super secret? No, what cultural things? The one the special like events where people beat the crap out of each other at Cape Cod. Oh, fireball, yeah, yeah, fireball.
+
+[20:06] Yeah, yeah. So talk about this. Oh, yeah, fireball. It's uh yeah, it's uh once the sun's gonna like this. This is yeah in uh at the Pow Wow.
+
+[20:15] In Mash P, right? Yeah. Uh they play this game, they gather everyone together, and they have two opposing teams. Uh uh just in young males as kind of like a ritual ceremony. And they light this damn ball on fire.
+
+[20:30] It's a bobwire ball that's lit on fire. And you have to get it from from one end of the post, which is also lit on fire, to the other end. So uh yeah, there's a lot of burnt hands. Everyone's hands look like like Mickey Mouse at the end of the event because it's all swollen, it's all cut up. And that's that's close to chest everywhere.
+
+[20:49] It's just a ball of fire just flying around. You said it's close to mash pee, right? It's close to that. Every single yeah, yeah, mash pee mash cheese. Mash P the best name ever.
+
+[20:59] So do you have like like a motor? Are you on a motorcycle right now? But he uh motorcycle or some sort of uh thing. So what what would you eat and drink while you were throwing fireballs at each other in Mash Purtle soup? Uh turtle soup, turtle soup, turtle tumor soup, turtle soup.
+
+[21:14] Yeah, so the yeah, anyway, anyway. Anytime I drive by Mash P, I'm like, Mash P, and Booker's like, not funny, Dad. That's how it goes. Anyway, someday you'll invite me, I'll go and I'll get someone throwing a flaming ball at me, and I will light on fire again. Although I hope to never light on fire again.
+
+[21:35] It's nice and serious. No, no, no. Yeah, bet. We'll be there. Uh the only thing is that there's trick about filming, um, because it's a very ritualistic thing.
+
+[21:44] But yeah, definitely bring the boys, bring the family. Uh, and we'll be down there this fourth of July checking it out. Oh, 4th of July. I don't know. We'll talk about it.
+
+[21:52] You talk, you come to the bar, you talk. All right, you're talking. All right, cool. Uh, Dave, we got uh who do we who do we got? Uh we got another caller on the line.
+
+[21:59] All right, caller, you're on the air. What's up? Hey, how are you? Uh long time, first time, first time, long time. Uh, I'm actually from London, but I now live in Boston and spend an inordinate amount of time at Mash P Commons, and I've never seen what you're like contributor to that.
+
+[22:15] But that's aside. My question is I've recently fallen in love with Negroni. Okay. And I was at the American bar in the Savoy in London, and he sold me on a best cow Negroni, which was actually rather good. My question is, well, can we make a Negroni out or dropping the gin and stubbing it for something else?
+
+[22:32] Okay, this is perfect because we have Stacey Swenson here. Okay, I'm gonna let I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna give you your time, Stacey. But let me let me let me just say one thing. Like, I am Yo, I'm gonna let you finish, but I'm gonna let you finish. I'm gonna get your time.
+
+[22:47] But like my issue is is that like, and we can have this argument after after we hear the answer, but uh is it really a Negroni still? Or is it a different drink? I got into almost a knockdown fight at the bar last bar meeting I had because I was like, every damn drink, according to you, every damn stir drink is a freaking Manhattan. Every freaking thing. It's either a Manhattan or a martini.
+
+[23:10] I got in a huge fight. Any libel. No. All right, so go ahead. Go Negroni.
+
+[23:16] Um, okay. I don't think we need to be so strict about what we call Negroni, but if yeah, whatever. There's there's a different, there's a there are many schools of thoughts. I guess I guess that the Negroni is just a building block for a cocktail, just like a Manhattan would be, right? So I think a Manhattan, I guess a Manhattan and Martini would be the same building blocks, right?
+
+[23:33] And the Negroni is a and a Negroni is a different thing. It's pretty much pretty much exactly the same drink. Um yeah, we definitely stretch our imaginations a little bit when we're when we're building Negroni's, and um you can pretty much literally do use any base spirit, and if you switch up your bitters and your vermouth, you can make it taste good. It's really hard to make it not taste good. Basca drapar.
+
+[23:56] That's the beauty of the Negroni. I uh I personally think that Kampari kind of won the uh won the fight for the Negroni. I think you can now make a Negroni with any three parts as long as there is a strong, a sweet, and then Kampari. So doesn't need why does it need to be Kampari though? There's so many red bitters out there that you can just I agree.
+
+[24:21] I'm just from a branding perspective, I think I think Kampari kind of has been fighting has been fighting that fight. And Kampari's still agreed. Well, I look at this question a lot when people ask, well, I thought a Negroni has to have Kampari. I don't know, like does it have who who makes these laws? I think I think I think Aperol is a legit, still legit less alcoholic, sweeter less bitter.
+
+[24:41] Sure, but we've got Luxardo bitter, Contrado bitter, like there's several other do you carry that do you carry the Luxardoxardo? Yeah we use it in our boulevardier why like why that as opposed to a different one I mean do they pay you it's almost as if they did R D and then decided it's the one they like sure that's the I'm just saying like what's the what's I don't know enough about it honestly because we never carried it right oh sorry it's a decision that came a little bit before I was there but um there's a reason why we use each bitter and each cocktail we also want to keep you know a variety on the menu I mean I know for me a lot of times it's I use that because they literally paid for an event and then I don't want to change it because it we wrote the spec with that sure I that might have that might come up in sort of some some decision making caller how how close are we to answering your question oh my god you're you can say that again caller yeah you're turning into Darth Vader or you're totally fine your robot voice sounds like he's going through a cerez all right I wouldn't want to add that if you're gonna use um a base spirit that's as intense as mezcal then maybe lighten up your bitter a little bit and so use something like Aperol or maybe like a like capilletti or something that's not as intense unless you really want like a punch in your face kind of cocktail which I think a mezcal Negroni is Mescal is a huge range though. It can range from like super light to like super hardcore. Mr. Del Maggie do you have any comments on this?
+
+[26:23] What if there's also like, would you at least agree? Steakbone, would you at least agree mescal well for Vita, because so if you're you're gonna use a mascal, that's cost effective in a cocktail. Right, and most of um I think most of them are super smoky, the ones that are like Vita, for example. Well right, mixed base, mescal tequila, mixed base. I like a mixed base.
+
+[26:44] Alright, so you go doesn't like a mixed base. Hey, hey No, to lighten it up in a drink, to lighten it, you know. But uh you also agree, like you like white. You still like a white spirit, not like a like an age spirit in a Negroni, right? Or no?
+
+[26:59] You could you're like, I could do anything, anything. I can't. And with an A spirit is a ball right. Now what about a Kingston Negroni? What's that?
+
+[27:08] Jamaican rum. What kind of Jamaican rum? Smith and cross. Jamaica, right? Yeah.
+
+[27:16] Isn't it made somewhere else? Smith and Gross? It does say it does say London rum or something like that. You know, it's a historical I don't care. I don't care where it's from, it's delicious.
+
+[27:31] It doesn't really matter. We'll call Wendrich. We'll we'll get to the board. Yeah, sure. Have we answered your question?
+
+[27:36] Basically, compari like compare and vermouth mixed with things taste good in almost any ratio. And hopefully answer my question. Um my final follow-on was what do you reckon? One big cube of ice, lots of ice, or just straight up? What's the right ethica?
+
+[27:51] Um, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm gonna give you a I'm gonna give you a four beat. How much of your cocktails left? Right. Yeah.
+
+[28:01] So like I mean, I would down it. That's just me. Then you don't need ice. Serve it up in a chilled glass. I mean, stir it on ice first to the case.
+
+[28:09] I thought he meant service-wise. Service-wise, but I'm just saying. If you're i if if if you're gonna be like yakkity yakkity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, yakity, then serve it on a big cube. Big cube. The trick is Negroni doesn't like being too warm, correct?
+
+[28:25] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's like that's one of the things. I gotta say, Dave, I I'm less yakity yak, more drinkity drink. So great answer.
+
+[28:32] So keep it up. Thank you. Thank you. And by the way, people, never ever, never ever order a double anything. Just say, give me one now and make me one in exactly three minutes.
+
+[28:43] You know what I mean? Like that's the correct answer. Every drink is a double now. Dave, I just spoke to the bartender inside of Roberto's. He said he substitutes Suze for the compare.
+
+[28:52] Oh, Suze. Boba White Negroni. Suze. Suze, like, which one of you is a Suze freak? Ann Robinson's a Suze freak.
+
+[29:01] I love Suze. We're all Suze freaks. Yeah. He's making my one right now, so. You dirty, you dirty, dirty.
+
+[29:06] Oh, why? Oh, because we didn't make you a drink. Yeah, that's right. It's not too late. I'll shoot you.
+
+[29:13] So we're gonna make you uh whatever we're gonna call it. Do we like easy rider? What do we like for names? I'm always always terrible at naming things. Gentle rider.
+
+[29:23] Dave, quick break while we got it on my own. Take a break. We'll come back with more cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Dave, we have a question from Kat this week.
+
+[29:45] I've seen the Sears all being used to caramelize sugars on brulees and other desserts. What type of sugars work the best? Okay, well, I sincerely encourage you to all go purchase Searsols on Amazon uh calm. I actually use a regular torch when I'm doing brulees without the Searsol head, and the reason is that bruleets don't take on that torch taste uh that you get when you torch things that have fat or high amount uh like high fat like meats or things that have proteins in them. And in fact, a torch is a straight naked torch is a good way to get kind of uh crunchy sugars.
+
+[30:23] I haven't run the test of different kinds of sugars. I know isomalt crunches up real nice, I know sucrose crunches up real nice, but I haven't tested uh, for instance, like glucose powder or fructose powder on the top of a creme brulee. So I can't really say, but I doubt it works. You want something that holds that you want something that does crystallize nicely, so invert tends not to, so I would I would choose things like sucrose or isomalt or anything that you would use uh kind of in a hard candy situation. You can get a whole range of sugars to test with your searsol at Bob'sredmill.com and use the code cooking issues.
+
+[30:57] That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order. And we're back! We're talking about the worst things we've ever made. Uh we did a birthday cake, we did a birthday cake bourbon once. Remember that?
+
+[31:09] We blended up. Oh my god, that's the one. That was delicious. French fried vodka once? Yes.
+
+[31:15] But that was my Hugo de Papas frites. So it was a lifelong dream. You can make a good jugo de papas frites, but it it it goes like rancid in about a day. That's the problem. Oh, I milk clarified a bottle of red wine recently and then bricks it up to 50, and it was terrible.
+
+[31:31] It's gonna be a New York sour. No, it's not. To be fair, the wine started as terrible. It's true. It's trash wine to begin with.
+
+[31:38] It like you would not drink the wine, so why would you think that as a product it would be good? I didn't want to use good wine and potentially ruin it, but you're correct. You're absolutely correct, and I was a fool. Yeah. Uh yeah, so what else were we talking about?
+
+[31:55] Milk washing. We were talking about like during the break, we were talking about things we've milkwashed and things we've made, like uh Stacy was saying we did a candy corn cocktail once. Not on the menu. That's the kind of crap that would never go on the menu. It was on the menu, but it was only there for a couple of days.
+
+[32:08] It was like Halloween weekend. Was I gone? No, you because you came in that day to make it for us. I made it for you? Yeah.
+
+[32:16] Is that for Dave in the booth? Dave in the booth, come get your cocktail. I really wanted to find a way to layer it to make it look like an actual cake. Oh, Nastasia just left you. Yeah.
+
+[32:26] Oh man. Total gnar. He won't be able to operate the phones if he has a full drink. I'm gonna take the other half. Alright, go so back.
+
+[32:35] So we're layering flavors. Oh no, I meant literally layering the cocktail. I was like, let's just layer this cake. I got vetoed on that. The most unpleasant, the most unpleasant cocktail world word is puscafe.
+
+[32:52] This is delicious. Like cafe. You like a style? It's good, right? No, he's saying so.
+
+[32:57] Yeah, but do you like it? Or do you hate that Nastasia's hater of everything, so she likes it. If she likes it and it's not uh rose champagne, literally, like as soon as Nastasi walks in the bar, someone just looks at her, grabs an AP wine glass, and dumps a bunch of rose bubbly into it. Yeah, the stars bucket. Yeah.
+
+[33:15] Stas bucket. I just say, Nastasia, would you like a bucket? That's always yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She never orders anything else.
+
+[33:24] In fact, we're gonna have to carry some sort of rose sparkler just in case Nastasia shows up. Wait, Dave, have you ever heard of uh Quantro buckets? Ooh, what's this? So I I was hanging out with uh some where many cointro people on Saturday, and they taught me about uh a quantum bucket where basically you take a shot of Quantro, you light it on fire, you put your hand over the top to uh to seal out the oxygen so it's the fire goes out and it suctions to your hand, and then you can like shake it up and then you take the shot. It was I know about this.
+
+[33:57] The guy who used to work for at a recording studio claimed he did this to women all the time to impress. What? Oh, he did it to himself. You light a woman on fire, you throw her in a cup, you put your hand over them. Very impressed.
+
+[34:11] To what part of the woman is foundation. I don't know, man. You need yourself some new friends, man. Oof. Anyway, so it do you like the I mean like we all know that burning liquor is good.
+
+[34:27] We do that all the time. Yeah, all the time. We're gonna have the red hot pokers at the new joint. Pokers are back. Yeah.
+
+[34:33] It's a little late in the season. I thought we'd be open months ago. Anyway, all right, so while you're making the next drink, I will answer a food related question. Uh this one from okay, I love it when people give me the pronunciation of their last name, because I can literally just look at it. Look at this, look at that.
+
+[34:49] Look at that. Mail mail your this is from Tom Miliaranza. You have to say it really fast. Tom Miliaranza. But no, but it's the Anza, it's the O N.
+
+[34:58] That's like I just learned that Joaquin Simo's name isn't Joaquin Simo, it's Joaquin Simo. Oh, wow. Melioranza game change. Yeah. So this way, so this is from Tom.
+
+[35:07] A lot of Mexican sauce recipes. What kind of sauce? Salves. A lot of Mexican sauce recipes have you heat a little oil in a pan until the oil is very hot, then dump in the sauce which is otherwise made, right? It's already a pre-made sauce.
+
+[35:20] Think of like an enchilada sauce or something. Usually something tomatillo or tomato based to quickly reduce, and as the recipe often claims to sear it. A lot of people say they fry it. They're frying the sauce after it's made. Anyway, this usually results in the sauce violently hissing and spurting, leaving a mess all over the counter, up the walls, on the cook, etc.
+
+[35:37] You ever got boiling sauce in the eye? It's sucks. I'll tell you something else. When I was younger, my eyes were fast. My uh my little membranes were quick.
+
+[35:46] Isn't this a is this a nictitating membrane in your eyelid? Is that what that is? Anyway, so like it closes it close real fast. So I never used to get hit in the eyes. But now that I'm getting older, my reflexes aren't so good.
+
+[35:57] Blinking issues. And blinking issues, and like and uh that's why I had to go to the hospital and get like a big piece of metal uh carved out of my eye instead of just wiping it off my eyelid like when I was young. Anyways, uh my question is is the idea of searing in big old air quotes a sauce BS. Um is there any reason why the same result could not be achieved by reducing the sauce at a more moderate rate? Thanks, Tom Mellaranza.
+
+[36:26] Okay, so uh the answer is it is not BS. Here's what okay, but it is a pain in the butt, right? Wait, what's going on? We're tasting, what do we do? This is uh two and a half year old martini.
+
+[36:36] You are yeah, whenever you have a moment, I'd like to make it. Oh, it's so olive this. Yeah, it smells like it's almost as if it's had an olive in the bottle for two and a half years. In fact, this has a history. That's a dirty martini I could get down on.
+
+[36:49] There's a particular history to this. Family show. Let's find your uh joke. The okay, so wait. You take you taste, you take it going around.
+
+[37:00] Alright, you taste around for a minute, and then I will talk about the sauce, and you guys can chime in if you have sauce things. So think about it this way. When you're cooking a tomato-based sauce in general, like uh I've said this many times on the show, but if you come from Boston Italian stock, first of all, it's not uh sauce, it's gravy, and it's not pasta, it's macaroni. So it's macaroni and gravy is pasta with tomato sauce. And the worst thing you can do, because you have to cook the gravy for hours and hours, is burn the gravy because it's not fixable.
+
+[37:29] If you burn tomato sauce, it is a non-fixable problem. And what does it tell you, the fact that you can burn tomato sauce? What does it tell you? What is it telling you, people? That it gets above the boiling point, i.e., you're having reactions happening at the bottom of that that that um are high temperature reactions, right?
+
+[37:48] And it's because it's so thick that it can't get get out of the way, it locally dries out, heats way up, and you can get you know uh high heat flavors. This is the reason why a lot of people take a like a very nonstick, well-seasoned cast iron pan and cook down their tomato paste in the like just give it a little heat in the bottom of a cast iron pan with some oil before they cook it to get a little bit of high temperature action on their tomato paste. I don't do that because I'm lazy. But uh people people totally do that. And so on a thick sauce, uh, yes, you can get those kind of cooked flavors.
+
+[38:20] The trick is to keep moving it around so it doesn't burn, and most of those flavors are gonna happen very soon after you add it because you're gonna turn it down such that it doesn't burn. Now, your problem with sputtering is you probably have more liquid in it at that point than you want, so it's gonna sputter everywhere. And if you have a thick layer of sauce and you heat it up at the bottom, and it's thick, like it's tomato, it's got pectin and other stuff in it, you uh build up bubbles, the bubbles stay underneath, and then it takes a long time for them to erupt because there's no convection. So you locally superheat the sales, it forms a large bubble, and then that bubble pops at the surface rather violently and shoots hot spurts everywhere, which is why always cover that sucker. Always cover that sucker.
+
+[39:00] What I would do is dump cover, let it for a little bit, stir it, and then turn it down. That's what I would do. Anyway, so talk more uh my my clutter buttons. By the way, I told you the day after you started working, I told you, oh my god, I just had to deal with another clutter buck. How many of you are there?
+
+[39:17] Just me and that person. Yeah. I've never heard of another one. It's like one of the better names. I think it's one of the better last names.
+
+[39:25] We killed them all. He killed them all. Donnie wasn't born, he just was. I am the hammer. She ran she ran the permissions for whatever library I had to get permission when I did the liquid intelligence book to use Ben Franklin's recipe.
+
+[39:41] In New York? She lived in New York? I the Eastern C board. Somewhere here on the Eastern C board. So there's at least four of us then.
+
+[39:48] Alright, cool. Maybe five. All right. So talk to me about the martini. Alright, so the martini is dated 5'9, meaning tomorrow, but two years ago.
+
+[39:55] So it's 200, 720 something days old. And it spent the first year of its life in my friend's trunk. Oh, Rochester. So hot cold, hot cold, cold, cold, hot, cold. So this is like Linny.
+
+[40:07] It's the Linny of Crossing Boards for one year though. So it's seen every temperature problem you can imagine. And it still tastes good. It just has a lot of olive in it. It does have a lot of olive in it.
+
+[40:19] I think it's nice. You should age them all for two years. And it is this actual, this is the actual BDX Nick Bennett spec? Yeah, this is so you can see Jack's handwriting here. Don't read it.
+
+[40:28] Don't read it or look at the stick figure. But there's a whole bunch of really great stuff written on there from the old days, right? So Nick, tell them about your uh martini spec here. Umran bitters. I don't remember what it is off the top of my head.
+
+[40:42] Beef eater gin. Uh we use dole and dry. Three stolen dry. Three-eighths stolen dry. Yeah.
+
+[40:48] Well, yeah, it wasn't a complete uh half ounce or anything like that. It was um orange bitters and dilution, and then we let it sit with uh in the freezer with a small olive castle Castlevania. I can never remember the actual. That's the only one I could ever think I can ever. It's a Castle Wolf and stuff.
+
+[41:09] I think it's a little can't taste the same as the Spanish Queens, but they're just like little teeny tiny ones. Yeah, yeah. Well, the the thing is it had to fit in the fit in the bottle, yes. That was the main point. Here is said batch spec I have pulled up.
+
+[41:21] It's uh 350 mls beef eater, 75 ml driver mouth. This is Dolan, uh 300 mls water, 10 dashes orange bitters. Uh that yields approximately five martinis after we put 150 grams of batch into each bottle with one olive. That's like a five to one. And Nick was like, Nick was like, I'm using beef because you use too much tank day.
+
+[41:42] And I have I have the uh the service, the service recipe here is it says martini, open bottle and serve. Alright, so some some spec questions. Some uh Nick uh Nick from uh England wrote in and said, give me the spec for the hatchback, give it to me. Well, one sec, let me let me find it. Give it to me, give it to me.
+
+[42:00] That's uh Karen Jarman's hatchback recipe. And someone else asked for Thundernut spec. Tell us. Thundernut is the hardest drink in the world to make. It takes many days, and you absolutely have to have a centrifuge.
+
+[42:13] I think uh my second day I spilled the entire day thundern stairs. He's walking up the stairs and tripped up the stairs. To be fair, those stairs were terrifying. Yeah, yeah. All right.
+
+[42:28] Hatchback. Hatchback is uh one 1,666 milliliters of water. Amazing. Uh 335 milliliters clarified grapefruit, 335 milliliters simple, 335 milliliters compari, a liter of tequila of your choice. We ended up using light.
+
+[42:49] Light blanco tequila. Cimarron, espalon, cabeza, similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh 26 drops of saline solution, and then you chill it, force carbonate it, and then top it with a half ounce. Top each six ounce pour with a half ounce of uh clarified lime.
+
+[43:05] Right. That's a Karen Jarman spec, but she said that she was based that on a drink. Whose drink did she base that on? Isn't it like a siesta, right? Whose drink is that?
+
+[43:15] Uh Katie's. All right. Sounds like a two-on-two. Yeah, I mean it's like it was a classic, I think it was uh really a modern classic from PDT. Uh the Katie over there.
+
+[43:27] But how did how did you guys name the hatchback? That was like right before I I showed up. I don't know. So like uh what happened was uh what had happened was that like I remember the story, but I don't. You have to tell me because like we were the opening bar crew, like uh so Tristan and like the opening crew, we all were like, we need names for these dang drinks.
+
+[43:48] And we just went to a restaurant and just started ordering French fries and booze, and we're like, we're not getting up until we have names for all these drinks. And that's where you're telling me I could have had fries? I've become cheap in my old age. But but I like where did the name come from? I didn't remember.
+
+[44:08] Well, the the story that I heard, and Nick, you were there, so you can testify. But apparently uh you were all sitting around and you were talking about this this comparian tequila drink, and somebody was like, Well, it's basically like uh like a siesta, like Katie's type siesta. And then Dave or somebody was like, Yeah, like fiesta, and then somebody said, Ford fiesta, and then somebody said that's a win. It's a ball. It really is.
+
+[44:34] I I tell you what, man, like the thing is is that there's so many different combinations of spirits out there that people get so bent on where the spec comes from. If you here's this is the Negroni problem I was talking to you about, right? So it's like if you start from a like this starts from a the drink that I brought here starts from sidecar. Because I I woke up and well, when I say woke up, I mean paid attention when we were in this tasting with Heaven Hill, and I was like, oh, sidecar, right? So this legitimately to me is a sidecar variant.
+
+[45:11] Yeah, absolutely. But like if you happen to like start with a flavor and arrive at something that is similar to something else but is milkwashed, has a bunch of herbs in it, and then does a bunch of other stuff that no one ever did, then is it really a variant on that other drink that you weren't thinking about or or not? Like, is our saffron Plymouth martini really a tuxedo? No. It's more of a seersucker soup.
+
+[45:35] We should have named it that instead of Canary, but canary is a canaries. As long as you call it something different, then what does it what difference does it make? Well, I think you just need to like it's upside down. But that's not where the inspiration came from. That's the thing.
+
+[45:52] It seems such a jag-off move because it's like, well, it's like a tuxedo, except for it's got yellow chartreuse in it and freaking saffron that we wrap it in fuse. But other than that, exactly the same. And we weren't thinking about the tuxedo when we were making it, and it's an inverse ratio. But other than that, it is a freaking tuxedo. Alright?
+
+[46:08] Do you think if you landed on the planet tomorrow and you didn't have any idea what any classic was, and you were giving a whole bunch of spirits and then you started making cocktails with them, that do you think that it's possible that you came up with a cocktail that didn't have any sort of precursor to it? You know what I mean? No. Like, do you think it would be possible? No.
+
+[46:23] No. If it tasted good. You know? Right. So then why are you even stress about it?
+
+[46:29] It's not I stress about the what I stress about is that I think it comes from the Phil Ward potato head theory is that everyone sees everything as a variant, and I don't think it's helpful from a mental standpoint. What I'm trying to describe to somebody, so in other words, like even if it's unrelated to a Manhattan, a specific cocktail, oh man, so many fights. But if it drinks like a Manhattan, it's useful for the customer who likes Manhattans because they can hang their hat on what a Manhattan tastes like. It's useful for them to know that it's in that ballpark. But if you do a bunch of stuff to that drink, even if it is a brown spirit, a uh, you know, an herbed wine, and some bitters, but it has no taste comparison to a Manhattan, or you've done something weird to it where it doesn't taste like a Manhattan anymore, that's no longer a useful peg for them to hang their hat on, and therefore it doesn't really should fit into the what you talk about it.
+
+[47:19] It but I think it can also be like when when I was bartending, I think something that helped me was realizing that there are these kind of master ratios in a lot of in a lot of respects. And so that's a great way as a bartender to remember how to make the drink. Yeah. Yeah, but that's the thing. So like, but like at what point is it if you start at one point, even if you start with a basis as a drink and you just mute and you just mutilate the hell out of it until it's something different, right?
+
+[47:48] Like so, oh well, it's uh it's a Manhattan, it's basically it's uh neat whiskey. It's basically neat whiskey. And then I, you know, I it it needed a little bit of sugar and acid, so I added some vermouth, and then I wanted a little more bitterness, so I added some you know, bitters, and then you know, it was a little too strong, so I stirred it, and then I put like you know, a cherry or a twist in it. So yeah, it's basically straight whiskey. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:10] It's like it's like at what point is it not straight whiskey anymore? You know what I'm saying? I'm defending everybody. I'm not gonna defend your own. That's unusual.
+
+[48:20] I'm talking what I'm talking about is I think pe like especially bars, I don't really think they give a rat's behind, to be honest. But I think bartenders, when they're thinking about what they're doing, tend to put too much stock in the precedent of what they of what they're doing and thinking about it that way rather than just thinking about the ratios. And for some re for some things the ratios are golden because they are, you know what I mean? But other times I think you can get hampered by thinking of yourself as just building variants. And you know, from the the like the the Booker and Dax perspective, you guys heard me say it a million times don't start with a different cocktail, start with a flavor that you want.
+
+[48:58] And so I think that like thinking of everything as a variant of something else, even though it's a useful, it's a useful starting place because you know these ratios, I would rather you think about the flavor you're trying to achieve, and if that's best achieved through something that's very close to a Manhattan ratio with a you know an herbed wine, then you know, God bless. The best thing ratio-wise that you ever forced us to do was the three-eighths measurement because nobody uses that, but it's such an easy way to visualize that amount of liquid in a jigger rather than like fat quarter scant half. You know, like those words have a meaning, but it's not as precise. Normal people don't call three eight. Nobody does three eights.
+
+[49:36] Yeah, it's literally just you, and it's amazing. Yeah, everyone in the doesn't the penicillin use three eighths? Does it? Is it is oh, is it three-eighths? Honey ginger honey ginger.
+
+[49:46] Like it's a good drink. Batch it together and make the honey ginger. Dave, you want to take one last call? Yeah, yeah, sure. Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[49:55] Hey, I I thought this show was about food. I had a food question. Oh, this is shorty Josh Eating the chef in existing conditions. What's up, Shorty? I was curious how we all feel about crispy crabs, bacon mayonnaise, and tomatoes.
+
+[50:11] Uh well, softies? Here's the problem with tomatoes is that soft-shelled crabs and tomatoes, they don't live in the same season. Soft shell crabs, soft shell crabs are in season. Right. They just came into season.
+
+[50:26] And tomatoes are kind of always in season somewhere, but we're like a month away from having great tomatoes. I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let the cat out of the bag at what we're gonna do. As long as there's a lettuce layer between the tomato and the crab. I like it, I like a hot house compared. I like a hot house compari tomato, and everybody won't be any bacon man in it.
+
+[50:44] It's gonna be a bacon mayonnaise. Everybody knows my favorite fact about soft shell crabs, right? The fact that they when you cut you're breaking up on me. Uh I think you're breaking up on me. I'm gonna start with it.
+
+[50:55] You're you at the bar right now. It's so it sounds like you're at the bar. Right now, this is how by the way, people, in case you want to know what like my actual life is like, it's pretty much like this all the time. My favorite thing about soft shell crabs is after you rip their gills out and after you cut their eyes off, they bred themselves. Oh, yes.
+
+[51:17] I'm gonna need to see this technique. I've never seen that. Of course you have. You've made soft shell crabs, their legs are still going. You throw them in the thing and they're like, I will help you.
+
+[51:28] They bread themselves. Yeah. I was really truly enjoying that big one. I was just listening to it for about 30 minutes. And that, my friends, is why you want spritely soft-shelled crabs, not those dead ones that are on the street that have been baking in the freaking sun.
+
+[51:46] You want nice ones that are still moving. When you guys buy correct shorty, when you buy when you buy uh razors, do you sit there and do you f do you do you flick, do you flick the muscle? Every time you pull out, you you pull on them and they stretch back. Yeah, and you gotta flick the muscle. You gotta flick the muscle.
+
+[52:03] That may not have sounded too good for the radio, but I'll tell you what's not a family show. Dana Skinner, who could not be here, came up with the all time bar term. Oh man. I don't know if we can we cannot talk about it. It's it's a method of uh expressing just the right amount of uh grapefruit or orange or lemon oil from a twist.
+
+[52:26] Yeah, slapping. Yeah, yeah. It's a slap. It's a certain kind of slap, certain kind of slap slap. Tataguchi once broke a glass.
+
+[52:35] Using that technique. It was incredible. We both swim. Woo. So we could do it.
+
+[52:41] I had another good idea last night, but you're not gonna like it either. All right. Um I was thinking about doing carbonated oyster shooters. No, why though? Why?
+
+[52:52] How about we serve you something carbonated and you have your oyster? First of all I'm okay with that. I was just playing around with the idea. I thought it was funny. I don't know, man.
+
+[53:02] Here's my okay, Shorty. Here's my thing with carbonation. Oh wow, I got booed. Not by not by me. That's Dave in the booth.
+
+[53:09] So like uh like for me, the issue with carbonation with a lot of things is it takes on the note of unless it's a liquor or a booze, it takes on the note of spoilage. So like back like 10-15 years ago when everybody was carbonating fruit, I was like, bad idea because when you start eating fruit and the fruit's carbonated, you're like, Dev fruit's gone south. You know what I mean? It's like it's not good anymore. Fermenty fermenting.
+
+[53:34] I have a uh specific question for Jack. Yes. Hold on one moment. Uh oh. Oh god.
+
+[53:40] Uh this is actually a two-part question. Uh acid grapefruit is not clarified, correct? Isn't Bobby? This is Bobby Murphy. This is Bobby Murphy, aka Vinny Bobberino, aka my cousin Vinnie Babberino, aka Bobby.
+
+[53:51] Formerly next, formerly a Linia, formerly. And I went to meddle school with Bobby. Yes, and Bobby have known each other forever. He was way cooler than me when he was a year younger. Not fair.
+
+[54:02] Going for the older. Bobby, sorry, what's part two? Uh, do you want the kin fried chicken lunch special? Yes. Yes, a million percent.
+
+[54:11] Um you can tell they're at the bar because you can. Yeah, alright. Here uh in the neighborhood. Thank you for taking our call. Uh of course.
+
+[54:22] Thank you, Shorty. Love you guys. We'll see you soon. All right. So you answer Bobby's question?
+
+[54:27] What? Yeah, yeah. I I told the people we have a tasting today. I like they called it in a radio show. Acid grapefruit is not clarified, and yes, I would like fried chicken.
+
+[54:29] Listen, Bobby, it's very simple. Is the drink gonna get shaken? If so, do not clarify. Are you going to shake? Do not clarify.
+
+[54:42] That's one of the great things about this uh drink here is that there's nothing it's double citrus. If you will shake, it is opaque. There's I stole that stolen from uh Kevin Denton. Okay, you're gonna get a reaction from us on that one. Boom!
+
+[55:00] All right, that's fair. Please, please, please. But like that's why I like this uh this fake sidecar. This fake sidecar, it's got over an ounce of citrus in it, so it's textured up the up the wazoo. Is it a sidecar?
+
+[55:13] Oh, there we are. Donnie is it's we're trying to be relatable right now. I started with uh I started with the concept of the sidecar. That's what I'm trying to say. I started with the sidecar and I ended up here.
+
+[55:26] Started with the sidecar, now we're here. All right, all right, all right. Okay, well, enjoy the rest of the show. Well, it's over now. Thank you guys for taking the call.
+
+[55:35] All right, thank you. Yeah. This is the kind of arguments we have constantly at the bar. Like we're like every someone has uh an idea, and then everyone else is like, no, you know what I mean? And then like, until until we have uh we gotta get out of here.
+
+[55:55] All right, listen. I want to thank BDX crew, the best crew anyone could ever asked for. I love all you guys. Oh, I promise. I promise this.
+
+[56:03] Uh, shout outs to Max Brzewski, barback extraordinary. He couldn't be here, but we love him. Oh yeah. Anyway, thanks. Uh, thanks for coming, and I hope to see you guys at the new place.
+
+[56:13] You're always family. Thanks. Couldn't believe it. Thank you, Dave. All right.
+
+[56:14] Thanks, Dave. Cooking! Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[56:38] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
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+[0:00] Enjoy food the way nature intended. Alaska Seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable. For more information, visit wildalaskaseafood.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:21] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Users coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from I don't know, like you know, like 12, 1215 to like, you know, 1245, like one, you know, from Burst Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brrrrrrrn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hi. And we got Dave in the booth.
+
+[0:42] How are you doing? Good. Things are getting off to a tense start. And oh, it's because Nastasia's all mad at me for some. We'll talk about that in a minute.
+
+[0:48] We also have my bar partner and evil cocktail overlord, Don Lee. Secret. Secret Overlord? Secret Overlord. But official partner now.
+
+[0:57] Official partner. We can talk about that now. Seek secret overlord. Yeah. So call in your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[1:05] That's 7184972128. Nastasia said to me this morning, by first of all, she's mad at me because we have colliding email. We have colliding, I have colliding meetings. Don and I need to go get some actual Don't worry, I canceled the 181. We're all good.
+
+[1:19] I need Don and I need to get some actual, like, you know, building crap work done in advance of us opening the new bar existing conditions. Uh, because, you know, we're members, actually, Booker and Dax is member of New Lab, which Nastasia, by the way. New lab. A collaborative. I hate collaborations more than almost anything is collaborating with with random people, but this is kind of a collaborative workspace, right, Don?
+
+[1:40] Well, story checks out. Yeah. And so, like, in like you know, Don and I are members of it for the for the shops. Like, you know, they have a shop bot I can use. They they have a larger laser cutter than Don owns.
+
+[1:52] They have 3D printers that I don't own. So, like between all this, you know, they have a spray painting booth, they have a vinyl cutter, all this kind of stuff that you would a full wood shop, you know, stuff that we would want to be able to access here in New York, but can't because New York's not a reasonable place to do anything. You know what I mean? New York City is the worst place to actually make or do anything. It is a freaking horror nightmare.
+
+[2:16] And I've known this since I stupidly moved to New York City to become a sculpture guy. There's no worse job on Earth than being an unsuccessful large metal sculptor in New York City. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, that's what I came to grad school to do here. But it's hard to move stuff around.
+
+[2:34] Long story short, we're part of this uh collaborative space. But other people I've asked about it have said, I didn't really join for the shops, I joined for the community. There's a lot of lonely people out there, you know. But who the hell wants community? People who don't have families.
+
+[2:50] Really? Friends, families. Do you think it's community? What other I don't like, I don't like like I think I think look, I like the people at New Lab. They're very nice.
+
+[2:59] I like all the people at New Lab. This is not an indicative of New Lab per se, but I think all of these things are like they're foam unities, they're not real communities. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, I have enough trouble keeping in touch with my actual friends, family, and co-workers. Like I'm gonna have a that's a you problem.
+
+[3:15] Yeah. People actually like to spend a YP. That's a that's a that's a that's an MP? No, it's a YP. Well, well, if I'm saying it.
+
+[3:24] If you're saying it, it's an MP. Yeah. Alright. So you're saying people that's why people enjoy the social media. Well, it's uh as people have gone more and more into like a distributed workplace where they're not near really working from an office with co-workers, they get lonely.
+
+[3:40] They want to work with other people, they want to be around other folks, other like-minded people. So it's the rise of co-working spaces like we work, and uh new lab is just another version of that where it's a little bit more focused and it has all these shops as you know, the the reason why we're there. Nastasia, can you imagine actually having to sit next next to like-minded people every day, to you and to me? Like would that be the worst thing ever? It'd be horrible being.
+
+[4:04] Yeah, we're already pushing the limits here. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. I mean, even Nastasi and I are like uh oil and water isn't right. It's more like water and sodium.
+
+[4:12] That's not true. Because we are very similar. Uh no. Yes. Yes.
+
+[4:20] I was thinking more like water and naphtha burning on top of the water. Yeah, which one of us is the naphtha? Water and lie. We all know who the napta is. Oh.
+
+[4:29] Anyway, we'll let you we'll let the listeners choose for themselves who gets to be the naphtha in this in this scenario. But that look, the the truth of the matter is is that Nastasia enjoys nothing more than getting me virulently angry. There is like it it basically seems to me that she has chopped a good five or six years off of my life just for her own humor. Like, just like in order for her to like crack a smile, she will she will do anything to make my blood boil. Say that something is broken.
+
+[4:59] That was a long time ago. Yeah, like the last time you saw me. Yeah, you you still do that all the time. You'll say bad things have happened. I see you do it to other people too.
+
+[5:09] And the great thing about Nastasia is she gets you to co-sign on doing this to other people. So she also makes you into a worse person. That's the best thing I think about Nastasia. She has the ability, like to when you know, when they go low, she'll make you go lower. She brings up the worst in all of us.
+
+[5:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She has like this like ability to like sink you down to your base level. Like if you want to know like what like your low level of operation is, she'll take you right there. Like right there. She'll take you there.
+
+[5:40] Oh my god. She'll take you there. Anyway, we're gonna have to pay some ass cap fees. Speaking of which, Don and I are uh, you know, dealing with and we Don has decided. I f first of all, I never realized what a pain in the butt it is to go full legit on the music you play.
+
+[6:00] Are you guys legit, Nastasia? At the Flyer of Pasta? No. No? Shouldn't admit that on the year.
+
+[6:06] No, listen, but just so you know, this is what's irritating me, right? So, as I'm sure any of you that have actually researched this know, you cannot, and Dave, you know, you know, as a musical dude, you know, as a as a sound engineer, as whatever, you know, whatever, whichever one of your hats you wish to wear here, that we cannot simply just play music, even if you quote unquote own said music. You can't do it, right? Well, if you owned it, it would be no problem. Well, I mean, own your copy of it, is what I'm saying.
+
+[6:36] You own the copy that you can play for personal consumption. Personal consumption. But yeah, I thought you meant a copyright to it. No, no. Yeah, difference there.
+
+[6:44] No, but here's the here's the nightmare, right? So the problem is that you own these CDs, you bought them, or CDs, what the hell am I? You own the MP3 or whatever. CDs, you you own the vinyl, you have the the you know, you well, you have the wax cylinders. You own the wax cylinders.
+
+[6:59] No, like whatever technology you're you're using to like get your music. Like, like you own those, does not give you the right to play them in public. Except you can play radio, uh, you can play anything that you own a copy of for your workers as long as c as long as like guests and customers can't hear it, right? That's one you're allowed to do that, that's not public. Two, you're allowed to play radio and or television if your bar is under, I think 3,500 square feet, and if you have fewer than I forget what the number is, like five or six TVs, you're allowed to play broadcast TV and broadcast radio.
+
+[7:33] Um however, that that's it. That's those are the only things. If you own a jukebox, you can buy a single jukebox license from a company that does that for jukeboxes. If you want to play music, you are hosed. You need to, if you want to do it legitimately, you have to buy not one, not two, three separate licenses to cover almost almost everything.
+
+[7:57] You have to buy your ASCAP, you have to buy your BMI, and what's the other one, Dave? C C Cap, whatever it's what's it called? I don't think it's C Cap. Something like that, though. It's a the third one.
+
+[8:09] Well, that's those are the two biggest, though, BMI and ASCAP. But you have to get the third one because like like in any given song, like there could be like part of the rights could be owned by BMI because that you know this songwriter is with BMI, this one's with Ask Cap, this one's with the third one and starts with NS. So you have to in in the real life, you have to buy all three. But you can't buy all three from one person. Like you can't like walk up to one guy and be like, hey Vinny, I want to get three licenses, you know, for the whole thing.
+
+[8:38] He's like, hey, okay. And then he bundles it. Take a walk around the corner and my guy will see about you. Come back, I'll give it, we'll laminate it. Anyway, but you can't do that, right?
+
+[8:45] And and literally, like, if you're if you're a big enough player, or if for some reason you get under somebody's skin, someone like BMI will go, and let's say you have an ASCAP license, someone from BMI will show up at your bar, they will, you know, soak up your booze and customer service on BMI's uh nickel, and then they'll listen to all the songs, and they'll wait for you to play a song that is not uh you know from BMI. It's you know they that's not from ASCAP, it's BMI. And it's get this $750 plus lawyers fees per song that you play. That's great maximum, right? You like that, Nastasia?
+
+[9:21] So anyway, so the fact of the matter is you have to play all three. So I went on the website this morning, I went on ASCAP, and I'm like, how much is it gonna cost me, Ask Cap? I just went to Ask Cap, I didn't bother with the other two yet. And they were like, well, you know, tell me a little bit about your something first before we, you know, how big are you? What's your name?
+
+[9:39] Where are you? What's your address? You know what I mean? Like they really want to know a bunch of information before they even give you the price. Because if you're in New York City, it's gonna be like Well, I mean, look, a lot of it has to do with your square footage.
+
+[9:51] They want to know how big you're they really don't care the square footage, they want to know how many seats you have, how many nights a week you're gonna play music, they want to know what kind of establishment you are, and they also want to the big things are you gonna have live music? Because here's the kicker if you hire a musician to come in and play at your bar, unless they own all of the rights to everything they are playing, you have to pay a much higher licensing fee for that music. So for a lot in order for them to play covers, for example, c covers or their own songs that they don't own all of the publishers. Right? So it's and that's a much higher fee.
+
+[10:24] So if you're a no-live music venue, and you know, it you're looking at somewhere on the order of between $500 and fifteen hundred dollars per license per year in that range for non-live music, depending on the size of your establishment and how many hours a week you're open and how many people are gonna Google it, right? So that's let's say it's 15, 15, 15. That's three, that's $4,500 a year. There is still a possibility that you could get sued by somebody else, but pretty much you're totally covered covered at that point. Now, the other way you can get around this, this is for people who are actually gonna try to go legit with their music.
+
+[11:02] For some reason, I went down this rabbit hole. I was just gonna wild west it like they do at some other places. I will not mention who they are, but some other places where I used to have worked and or maybe been, you know, involved with that play music in the wild west style. The wild west style. First of all, you should never stream music at your location illegally.
+
+[11:17] Satellite radio considered radio. Well, no, but you're not allowed to play. You're if you're under a certain, you're under a certain size, so you can play radio at Pasta Flyer. No, no, no. You're not allowed to.
+
+[11:30] Specifically, you're not allowed to play satellite radio. You can buy commercial satellite radio where you are allowed to, and it's not that much more, but it's just you can only play from those channels. Now here's the deal. So Spotify now, there's a bunch of these businesses. Spotify is one of them, where they're like, hey, Spotify for business, right?
+
+[11:49] And so you can have, in quotes, access to the entire Spotify song list, right? At your business, but the dildilio on it is, and you can even get this, Dave, you can upload your own playlist to it, right? As long as it's more than three hours. As long as it's more than three hours, because why, Don? Because they are they're doing a music license under radio, like Pandora.
+
+[12:10] So they shuffled the songs, and you don't get to pick the actual play order, nor can you inject a song midstream. You have to just get the shuffle version. And that's the stuff. Well, that sounds stupid. Right, Dave, right?
+
+[12:20] That sucks. And it's such a stupid workaround because they're letting you pick three hours of very specific songs, right? You know, you can I could play, you know, like but if I've but if I want, if I want to go like two short Mac Dre, like Looney's, and then I want to go down, you know, further south in California, and then I want to scoot down to like, you know, Texas, you know, do some, do some uh, you know, I don't know. I don't know what choose your Texas, choose a Texas rapper. I don't know.
+
+[12:51] Pick one. Uh Paul Wall. I don't know why I chose that one. And then like go over to like Atlanta and then like go up. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:58] You can't, because you can't choose to freaking order. It's just gonna rando shuffle it. But it lets you choose those songs, but it doesn't let you choose the order. This is so stupid, right, Dave? Yep.
+
+[13:08] Yeah. And we are we tested this because Don and I, now it's real cheap. You don't have to you don't have to convince me, Dave. It's real cheap. It's like $25 a month or $26.
+
+[13:16] Between between $17 and $30 a month, depending on how you sign up and when you sign up. But like So is this what you're running into with Booker and DAX right now? Is this what you're trying to say? Well it's not the new Booker Index, it's existing conditions. Excuse me, excuse me, sorry, sorry.
+
+[13:27] Come on, man, get with the freedom. Existing conditions. Come on. Yeah, this is what we're running into. And as for me, as for Don, Don doesn't care that much about shuffle or not shuffle.
+
+[13:37] That's not the as they say enfrancay, the hill that he wants to die on. You know what I mean? But like many hills I want to die on, not this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like there's some nice ones around here.
+
+[13:46] Oh my god. Uh, we'll get into that later. This neighborhood, Dave, is a trash pit. I hate this place. Stay on target.
+
+[13:54] You try to park in this place? You ever try to park here? No, I don't drive. Uh-huh. They took your license and now you don't drive.
+
+[14:01] No, I left Philly, so I wouldn't have to drive anymore. This is great. You left Philly. You don't have to drive in Philly, do you? You of absolutely have to drive in Philly.
+
+[14:08] There's like two subway lines, and they are Yeah. It's useless. Parking there is also crazy. Yeah. Uh you know, not to go too far on a tangent, but if you're driving, I'm like, this is gonna sound ridiculous, but like I try to reduce my internal stress level.
+
+[14:23] I try. I try, right? So I don't want to get road raged out. Like I don't appreciate getting road raged out, right? It's like have you ever drive with taxi drivers, Nastasia?
+
+[14:32] And like you could tell there's two kinds. Those who will have an aneurysm and fall over dead, and then I would rather they be my taxi driver. Well, no, but then there's the people who are just like, nah, I don't like that kind. I don't like that kind of I think that's the only that's the only sustainable. See, you don't care whether it's their life is sustainable or not.
+
+[14:47] That's the reason why. You know the type that stop at yellow lights? I'm like, keep going. What about the kind that they always hits the accelerator and the brakes, so you're like that's terrible inside the taxi? That's what it sounds like, too.
+
+[15:01] Yeah, yeah. Like those guys are the worst. They're not getting sick because they know when their foot's about to hit the brake. You know what I hate is when I'm walking and there's a car about to cross through an intersection and it stops and it's trying to wave me through, and I'm like trying to wave them through. Like, no, you're in the car, just all you have to do is step on the gas and you're through in one second.
+
+[15:18] Like, I'm gonna have to walk across this intersection. It's just much more efficient for you to go go, right? Right, right. Well, but in in a really in a well, yes, I think that's that that's accurate. But Nastasia, I'm for my taxi driver having a sustainable or Uber driver having a sustainable life.
+
+[15:33] So I prefer if they could zen out a little bit. I'd just like to take this moment to uh encourage anyone that's currently listening live to call in with your gripes on it really grinds my gear. As a matter of fact, we do have a caller on the line. Here's the thing. If you if you are going to pull out in front of someone who is going the exact like vision zero speed limit that we have in New York, the exact speed limit, and you pull out directly in front of them such that they have to slam on the brakes, you are obliged to go the speed limit.
+
+[16:05] You do not pull in front of somebody and then crawl looking for a freaking parking space. True or false. True. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh, this is Mark Collin.
+
+[16:16] How are you doing, everybody? All right, how you doing? Doing well then. I'm just uh stuck in a crossroads here. I do a lot of wood-fired oven cooking.
+
+[16:25] You're not literally at a crossroads right now. I'm standing in the middle of the road right now. I mean beach. Let me tell you something. No, I'm just I'm stuck with a recipe I've been trying to work on.
+
+[16:37] And uh spin a lot of pies and uh sear a lot of meats in there, and it comes out really great. But when I get to frying chicken, I've been stuck because I tried to do it like an open, sort of like an air fried chicken, but uh obviously it's it's burning up so fast. So I tried to do it in a Dutch oven. Right. And uh what I'm getting is uh like a pre pre cooked sous vide chicken, all dark meat.
+
+[17:00] And uh when you bite into it, it's just perfectly cooked, tastes great, but all the breading comes off in one bite. Gotcha. Trying to find a way. Okay, okay. This is for freaking, this is like perfect because this is the argument that Kenji Lopez Alt has all the time, and he's just doing it wrong.
+
+[17:16] First of all, air frying Not frying. Yeah, right. Here's the thing about frying. Here's the thing about there's this group of people, they're evil, and I don't want you to speak to them anymore, who are worried with their frying foods, that they're worried about the oil content. Just freaking deal with the oil content and make the sucker taste good.
+
+[17:36] And if you're really worried about it, then eat your freaking poached, skinless chicken breast garbage, right? Frying is God's cooking technique. Yeah, it's delicious. This is the way God was like, I have given you a medium that will not dilute the flavor of your product. I've given you a medium that instead of making something soggy will make it crunchy.
+
+[18:00] I have made this medium a liquid so that it can surround every nook and cranny of your food. And I've made this medium so that it can get to a high enough temperature to make everything crunchy. I have given you this. Why, if God gives you this, would you mess with it? Do you see what I'm saying?
+
+[18:14] And like air frying is some miserable, miserable freaking attempt to take a breading, spray some puny amount of Pam or other oil garbage on the outside, and then use an impingement oven to make it crunchy. This is the only reason I approached it that way in the first place, because I I didn't know about the safety aspect of putting four inches of oil in a Dutch oven with a lid next to an open flame. Right. Well, that's a good question. And we'll and we talk about that one in a second, because I don't know what the lid will do.
+
+[18:42] What the lit I mean, look, there's a group of people who believe that putting the lid on is going to drastically increase uh the temperature and or the pressure. Not true. Uh what is true though, I mean you could slightly, I've never done the study, so it's interesting. I don't know as the way frying works is when the when the product is immersed in the oil, and this is the problem with air frying too, is that when you're quote unquote, I won't even want to use it, when you're air destroying your food, what happens is is that locally the oil plus bread coating can get up to a very high temperature, and in other places it it can't it doesn't. And that's why you get scorched areas and blonde areas when you're using that kind of a technique, unless you have a very, very fast impingement oven, which you don't because you're using like you know, another one of another one of the great cooking techniques, wood, right?
+
+[19:34] So you're not gonna be able to do that, and so you're gonna get scorched parts and you're gonna get blonde parts. Now, um, oil obviously doesn't have that because as the water is boiling out of your product, right? It's one getting crispy, it's two, like modulating the temperature of the inside of the food to make it lower, and three, um, it's convecting a bunch of stuff around such that your oil is pretty much within the area of the of the actual product, going to be a relatively uniform temperature. In a large fryer, you know, you have a uh a big pit in the bottom of it called a cold zone, and that cold zone is where all of your breading drops down to so that it doesn't scorch, right? So you're not actually, you don't want an even temperature over the whole kettle, but from the place of heat, which is where the tubes in a tube fryer are up, it's a fairly consistent temperature because of all the convection going on, right?
+
+[20:26] So uh, so that's about the the frying. Now the safety with the lid, the the question is I again I don't know what effect, because you are gonna increase the relative humidity in there, right, by having the lid on, but I can see why you would want to have the lid on from a safety perspective because of the sloshing and whatnot, right? Uh and I mean, I doubt you're gonna get enough radiant heat to actually flash fire the oil that quickly, assuming the chicken is frying. As soon as the chicken goes, uh, like if you were, let's say you were making tortilla chips instead of chickens, right? So the way you make a tortilla chip, if you want to do a good job, is is that you put it into relatively high enough temperature oil to boil the water, but low enough temperature such that the outside's not gonna go uh overcooked before you get rid of all the water.
+
+[21:17] Because when you're cooking tortilla chips, the name of the game is complete moisture removal, right? And so, like if you overfire a tortilla chip, you'll find that the outside browns and the inside still isn't cooked yet, and this is a sad tortilla chip. So you tend not to go super high on your temperature when you're doing tortillas, and tortillas and potato chips are a few of the things that you can actually do a perfect fry from a cold start, right? Okay, and one where you can overload your oil. If you're not worried about like water damage in your oil, which you really shouldn't be over short terms, like you can overload your oil on things like potato chips and and tortilla chips because you actually want the temperature to drop down a bit, right?
+
+[21:55] But once you get to the end of a tortilla chip and you see the bubbling starts to slow down, indicating you've gotten rid of most of the water, right? I don't know then whether or not, because you're not gonna have as much convective force and as much liquid coming off of it, whether at that point the radiant heat from your oven becomes a risk with the top of the oil, I don't know. I've never tested it, okay? But um, to your problem on adhesion, when you said you are getting low temperature cooked chicken, does that mean that you are cooking it low temperature? And this is back to my gripe with Kenji Lopez Alt, or are you low-temping the chicken yourself?
+
+[22:27] I I take, you know, usually about eight pieces of leg inside a time, 65 C for about two hours. And uh it's marinated overnight in buttermilk, and then I poach it and then I dry it, and then I've tried three different uh bread batches with the spices. I've used double zero flour, I've used all purpose, I've used uh buckwheat groats, I've tried to use brown rice, and it just it all they all come out slightly different and very nice looking and great tasting. It's just as soon as you bite into it, it all slips and falls right off. Maddening.
+
+[22:59] For some reason, when you said buttermilk, I had the the wham song go through my head. Buttermilk. Instead of Jitterbug, buttermilk. But the uh, so wham. You know, George Michael, rest in peace, right?
+
+[23:12] Anyway. Uh absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Freedom. Freedom.
+
+[23:17] Anyway, uh, that's a different one that's Aretha Franklin. Anyway, but the uh dude. No, I was going into the different. I was going into uh into the song she sings in the blues brothers. Like when you said Freedom, I was l I heard George Michael, and then my mind jumped to Aretha Franklin singing in the Blues Brothers, which is maybe the greatest rock and roll movie of all time.
+
+[23:37] You don't like the Blues Brothers? I don't think it's the greatest rock and roll movie. What's the greatest rock and roll movie of all time? Uh I'll give you a minute while I talk about this chicken. So here's the thing.
+
+[23:46] Spinal tap. Spinal tap is Spinal Tap. No, I mean, when I say rock and roll movie, I mean like the rock and roll. The rock and roll in it, like the blues, the rock and roll, the RB in it. I mean like, I mean, like do you like Stonehenge is an interesting song, right?
+
+[24:04] As good as Ray Charles singing Shake Your Tail Feather? No. No. No, no, no. Just it's not.
+
+[24:10] You know, as good as John Lee Hooker doing ah ha ha ha. No, not. Not. Uh, just not. As good as James Brown in the church, no.
+
+[24:18] As good as Aretha Franklin, like, you know, stepping from behind cooking the four fried chickens and the toasted white bread? No. Just not. Uh, you know, uh as Spinal Tap. Now we can make an argument over whether Spinal Tap is funnier than the Blues Brothers.
+
+[24:33] This is not an argument that I'm willing to have. Because I feel like, you know, you wouldn't ask me to choose between Booker and Dax. Wouldn't I? Yeah. Anyway, so back to the chicken.
+
+[24:45] Nastasha totally would. Nastasia would, because she's a Sophie's choice kind of a lady. So the uh she's uh yeah, Nastashi. Is Booker still gamefully employed? Booker, yeah.
+
+[24:55] Nastasia is Booker's employer, and here's the problem. If you're going to employ somebody's son, you have to set some ground rules. Because if you've been friends with them for a long time. Right, you don't want them to do that. Booker's like, can I change my shift?
+
+[25:08] Can I do that? I'm like, she's your freaking boss, Booker. You're not allowed to do that. Anyway, back to the chicken. Adhesion.
+
+[25:14] What? Adhesion. Adhesion. Chicken adhesion. So first thing I will say on this is buttermilk.
+
+[25:18] Please do an assessment. When you're going to do a long-term, are you low temping in the buttermilk or not? Yes. Okay. Here's what I will say.
+
+[25:27] If you're gonna do a very hard fry on it, it might not be. I'm just gonna go point by point and at the end I will address your problem. Uh the the issue with acidic, I actually, when I do my chickens, especially when I'm gonna low temp them, I do not use acidic uh brines. I'll use salt, obviously, casalt adds some protection against overcooking. Um, and I will use sugar to balance the salt so it's not as sharp.
+
+[25:54] I use milk, right? And I don't know why. I've never done this side by side. It's just ever since I was, you know, ever since I can remember, I've used milk in my soak. But the reason I don't use buttermilk, I'll use acid if I'm gonna do tandoor, right?
+
+[26:07] If I'm gonna pound thin and hit hard, or if I'm only gonna uh if I'm only gonna soak it for a couple of hours and then cook it right away, I'll use uh acidics. When I say acidic, like I'll use yogurt, I'll use lemon juice. Uh in a tandoor situation, and I'm pretty much a yogurt lemon juice kind of a person. Um in or I can do a buttermilk. But I want you to just assess for yourself whether or not the texture of the meat gets too mushy, right?
+
+[26:34] Because what the acid is going to do is break down the fibers of the chicken. It'll make it soft for sure, right? So if you were having problems with it being like kind of hard and dry, for sure buttermilk is going to make it softer. But just do a side by side and test to see whether or not you actually, if you're gonna low temp it, right? If you're gonna cook it traditionally, this is why buttermilk marinades are so good in traditional fried chicken.
+
+[26:55] So, like if you go to somebody's house and their breasts are perpetually dry, they're probably not brining it, and they could probably use some buttermilk because they're overcooking the beejesus out of their uh chicken breast anyway, right? But if you're gonna do low temperature in a fast fry, consider doing like either I mean I've never done a water soak, so I can't say that, but consider doing a milk soak instead of a buttermilk, and choose whichever one you like better. I'm not here to tell you what's better or worse. I'm here to tell you the thing. But the answer to what I've actually you you mentioned on an earlier show that you when you do low temp fried chicken, you do milk and sugar.
+
+[27:28] So I've tried both the buttermilk and the milk, but the results were the same with the breading falling off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just talking about flavor of the inside. Here's what here is here is my thing about the breading. Here's where I get to the the actual reason you called in, however, long later the thing is.
+
+[27:44] You must you must remove the chicken from the bags or from whatever you're putting it in while they are hot. You must put them on racks, put them into a speed rack and let them dry for let them flash off all of their moisture and let the outside get tacky before you bread them. After you bread them, they can then sit for as long as you want and can be re-refrigerated or whatever. When are you are you doing that step? The first step that you mentioned, I actually did 24 hours uncovered on a drying rack because I I got so tired of it.
+
+[28:23] I'm like, it may it's gotta be moisture, it has to be the problem. You pulled them hot? I let them air dry in a refrigerator uncovered for a day, but I did not bread and let this the breading sit overnight and become tacky. And that's what a spice rep mentioned to try. But I didn't know what your thoughts were on kind of letting it sit in the breading, you know, becomes moist and then actually like pasty.
+
+[28:44] Yeah, oh hell yeah. Yeah. But uh and and are you you're letting the and the first part you're letting them flash off when they're hot, right? Don't let the bags cool. No, no.
+
+[28:54] As soon as they're done cooking, drain, pat dry with paper towels, air dry overnight. But then uh I I haven't yet let that I should after that first day then bread and let it become really tacky. I think that I would like to try that, but I wanted your thoughts. Yeah, yeah, try that. And then also the regimen that I use is I'm um so I find it very difficult to properly spice uh straight flour, right?
+
+[29:21] It's very hard. So typically what I'll do is I'll spice, I do a I do pretty much a straight flour for the dust. You know, if you are worried about it, you can add some of the higher tech starches to it. I never bother, uh, but you can crisp coat or whatever peep, whatever the kids are using these days. And then I always spice the buttermilk egg mixture so that the and and I don't know whether or not my lack of adhesion problems have to do with my breading mixture or not.
+
+[29:50] So I'll just tell you what it is. I go into straight flour, and then my buttermilk mixture is a uh it's about um a I think it's one egg per, is it one egg per cu it's one egg per cup of buttermilk, right? And then I add uh both soda, the reason I add soda is it neutralizes the acidity in the buttermilk. Uh if you don't fully so people, there are people on the internets who say things like, it only takes a half teaspoon of baking soda to completely neutralize two cups of but don't listen to these people. Because the fact of the matter is is not only do you need to neutralize the acidity, you actually need to push your mixture into the basic realm so that the sucker browns right.
+
+[30:36] If you if you have a buttermilk mixture and you do not use soda, right? If you use only powder and you only use you only use powder and not soda, it will never brown properly because it's too acidic. All right. So which is is it baking powder or baking soda? Because I I wrote down baking powder from a previous uh episode that you had.
+
+[30:56] Los dos. You need the you must use both. That's the key. So you use soda and you use powder, right? And I gotta be honest, I'd love to give you a measurement, but I do it by eye.
+
+[31:08] The uh but uh food and wine, uh food and wine like 15 years ago or 16 years ago, printed my recipe. So it's in there, and I bother, you know, you know, look up Dave Arnold fried chicken food and wine, whatever. And uh, but uh then I that's where I add salt and pepper and uh spice. If you want to go spicy, I add it all to the buttermilk. So it's in the flour dredge, the straight flour dredge, then into the buttermilk, then back into the flour.
+
+[31:35] That's the regimen that the regimen that I use. So it's a double bread and you and and you have no adhesion problem. I don't no no. Well, depends on what you consider double. I go flour, liquid, flour.
+
+[31:49] Okay. And then you can let it sit. Usually I let it sit for, you know, whatever. I do it like, you know, way early in the day, and then I pull it out and fry it. And the advantage there is obviously the inside of the chicken's cooked, so all you have to worry about is the outside.
+
+[32:04] I mean, that's the advantage of it. Anyone can, you know, if if you're willing to sit there and, you know, like uh Sean Brock, you know, uh and uh when Josh Azirski visited Sean Brock back when he was still alive, you know, uh Sean Brock did that thing where he would cover the pot and lift the pot, cover the pot and lift the pot to get the moisture just right on the crust. This is why I'm saying I don't really know a hundred percent what the what like exactly how the effect of covering it is, but it does change the moisture level in there and probably therefore slightly the temperature. I've never done it, like whether the evaporative cooling off the surface changes, like do you actually get that 10-15 degrees difference by covering uncovering? Who knows?
+
+[32:41] Not me. So the um, so you know, if you want to sit there and adjust it, I used to back before I did low temp, the way I would have to do it is I would fire up my fryer and I would do all the chicken first. I would start the breasts first at the lowest temperature, cook them all through because I was buying whole chickens, and so I had to cook the breasts whether I wanted to or not. And then I would uh go to the thighs and the leg balls, because I only cook leg balls. I don't cook legs with bones in them because my family doesn't enjoy that.
+
+[33:12] And then um after that, then I would go to fries and rinks, you know, jacket. But you know, now I can just go in any order I want, you know, any all around the town. But listen, if you're actually having problems like with the suggestions, getting your adhesion, call back and then I'll have a mental argument with my or a verbal argument with myself, and we'll try to figure it out because this is the gripe that people like Kenji Lopez Alt have about it. It's just I've never had a problem. I cook a lot of I cook a lot of fried chicken.
+
+[33:41] I would think that if like you know they started coming off like the hoods of trunks, you know, like like like if it was like you know, cars shedding their skin, like I would be like, dang, I gotta change that. It just hasn't been a problem. I'm a fairly observant guy. You know what I'm saying? What would you say about uh that's why I asked you?
+
+[33:57] What would you say about using a Dutch oven with like a like not as much oil? So it's more like a pan fry. So you'd uh halfway through have to flip it. What's the advantage of that? Just less oil?
+
+[34:06] Because less oil, then you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, but he's doing it commercially though. So in a wood fire oven. Yeah, but are you doing it? You're doing it commercially or doing it at home?
+
+[34:14] Well, I'm I'm preparing to open a nano brewery here in Pittsburgh, and I have uh I have a wood oven in my backyard. What's nano? What defines nano versus micro? Is it a batch size? Is it is it a brew size?
+
+[34:27] It's an order of magnitude. It's it's like a three three-barrel system with probably eight taps. But like, but in other words, are you brewing like what size vessel are you fermenting in? Are you fermenting like in a Sankey keg size fermenter? It's just it's just a standard three barrels.
+
+[34:43] It's a micro brewery. It's just a uh probably a poor buzzword. Alright. No, I like and I like anything nano, except for like well, nano, I mean it's a good word nano. Nano.
+
+[34:52] Anyway, um, I mean, the advantages at home of using less oil are that you use less oil. The disadvantage is uh in commercially is it's gonna go bad faster, right? So commercially, just get a deep fryer. No, but you want if you want to do it in the wood oven as part of if the shtick is all the stuff's cooked in the wood oven, including my fried chicken. Everything's coming out of that oven and and I did try like just a regular cast iron skillet and to to do the pan fry but what what seemed to happen is the unexposed parts of the chicken happen we got the uh you know the leoparding you know the charring of the certain spots of the flour that weren't submerged yeah yeah yeah because you've got radiant heat see the reason that works in a in a stove top scenario is because you don't have radiant heat hitting from above right here's another thing that's about I mean it's it's it's kicking up those the uh the dome of the oven's probably sitting around uh 1200 degrees right and uh yeah the floor the floor is uh probably around n eight eight nine hundred so for safety right another reason for the lid here now that you're telling me your temperatures is i i the the problem is is if you've ever like hung out above a fryer for a long time which I highly recommend right as one does you get covered with a uh oil mist right because like oil gets volatilized and that's actually gonna be the danger if you locally overheat and you get the stuff into like if you were going thin like if you're going in a skillet I think you get a much higher danger of making an oil burst cloud you know above the above the pan you know what I mean than if you're doing it your way so I think covering is definitely the way to go in this in this scenario.
+
+[36:36] Also from a long term safety perspective uh make sure you uh clean out and maintain your hoods um between the the carbon that's going up there and the oil mist that's gonna go up there, you're gonna inside the fire. He's outside. Yeah, it's still the same thing. You don't want to. No, no, the oven's inside.
+
+[36:51] Oh, the oven's inside. I I'm I'm outside, but the oven will be inside and vented directly out on it through an outside wall. Can you remove the oven to the center of the crossroad? That's originally. I thought he needed help jacking his oven out of the crossroad because cars were honking for like miles behind him.
+
+[37:09] Here's another thing. I'll say, like, use my words wise. All right, here's another thing. Uh, I mean, obviously, you know this, you're doing this. I think like uh, you know, if it get, you know, you you need your chimney cleaned out or your flu or whatever cleaned out on a re a regular basis.
+
+[37:23] But I think, you know, a lot of people, because you burn an ungodly amount of wood when you're actually using wood to to cook. And I think there's a lot of temptation to um use under seasoned wood because you know, you haven't planned in advance or the wood's not seasoned enough. And you're obviously going to get a lot. A, I don't know if you know this, but if if uh if you look up the number of BTUs of heat you get per uh cord of wood, if the wood is not properly seasoned, if you use actual green, which no one does, but actual green wood, like half of the BTUs are used in heating and uh um and uh vaporizing the water that's in the wood on the order of half. I mean it depends.
+
+[38:05] Like very high BTUs, like very high BTU wood like hickory, like probably not a full half because there's probably the same amount of water in hickory as there is in a in a crappy wood like birch, which has a much lower BTU per pound than hickory does. But the green wood, uh you get a much lower uh use out of it because you're you're spending all of that energy heating water in the wood. Secondly, you're really gunking up your flu with with that stuff, and so you want to make sure that you have uh, you know, it's worth a little bit more to get wood that's seasoned properly and not from some joker who drops you off stuff that they just chopped this season. You know what I'm saying? Yes, sir.
+
+[38:45] Yep. Yeah. I'm sure you already knew that, but I was just saying that for other people. Um, no. Yeah.
+
+[38:50] Good good information. All right, David, all right. Well, anyway, let us know how your adhesion problem works, my friend. Hey, thank you, everybody. I appreciate it.
+
+[38:57] All right, talk to you soon. All right, taking a break, coming right back with more cooking issues. Think about what it takes to swim a coastline longer than the entire eastern seaboard and leap tall waterfalls in a single bound. What does it take to survive 200 feet deep in icy salt water? What would you be made of?
+
+[39:26] Wild Alaska seafood is made of tight muscle mass, long chain omega-3s, and incredible micronutrients. It matters where your food comes from. Experience the flavor of the fittest in every bite and enjoy food the way nature intended. Alaska seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable.
+
+[39:47] Ask for Alaska on the menu, grocery store, or smart device. For more information, visit Wild Alaska Seafood.com. All right, listen, listen, Dave. With the wild Alaska seafood, first of all, eating food the way nature this that by the way, if you somehow skip. Dave, I don't have time to edit all this out later, so let's just let's just skip it.
+
+[40:11] No, no, it's important. So wild Alaska seafood, so like the like the way that Dave, I don't have time to edit all this out later, so just skip it. I'm not gonna say anything negative about the seafood. First of all, Don wants me to cook him the live Alaskan king crab. I've never had one live.
+
+[40:24] I've been promised by Dave that it is delicious. I used to get them from True World Foods. I don't know whether they still get them, but they used to get the Alaskan live king crab. Alright, we got five minutes. Five minutes?
+
+[40:35] What? I'm talking about King Krab. Look at the time. Talking about King Crab. Alright, get to it.
+
+[40:40] What about why do you want to taste Dave's King Crab? It's delicious. I've never had one live. Didn't you have one, Nastasi? Or did we cook that before you showed up?
+
+[40:47] Remember we used to we got remember? We got the entire live? What do you mean live? They come to the colour. It is a live moving.
+
+[40:56] As opposed to dead. Yeah, they're fantastically expensive, but they are a boat ton better. We used to get them, Nils and I used to get the live king crab, and then we would do the anesthesia on them with the clove oil. Then we would do I've been there for that. Yeah, then we did the kill, and then we would make the soup out of the bodies and serve it in the giant soup, and then we'd have all the legs.
+
+[41:14] It is it is pretty uh fantabulous. But here's the thing. Why does no one push the most important Alaskan product, which is Alaskan cabbage? First of all, what's his name, Nastasi? Steve Hubachek, right?
+
+[41:27] Steve Hubacek. Yes, yes. I wonder if he's still alive. There's a dentist. There's a dentist in Alaska, named Steve Hubachek.
+
+[41:35] And as of like five or six years ago, ten years ago. Ten years ago, then Nastasia found out who Steve Hubachek was. Steve Hubachek grows the world's largest cabbage. Now, Don, have I talked to you about this before? No.
+
+[41:49] This is the first time hearing about it. How big would you think the world's largest cabbage is? Hmm. Smaller than a quarter wood? Well, yeah, a quarter wood is freaking big.
+
+[42:01] Yeah. They're they are like on the order of 150 pounds. Right? Uh yeah, Steve Hubert. Find out what the largest cabbage is Steve Hubac's ever made.
+
+[42:11] Maybe it's only 100 pounds, but they are, as they say en Francais, freaking big, right? Like so much he uh so much so that Nastassi and I, we were like, yo, Steve, because here's what it is. 125.9 pounds. That's a big cabbage. So we called Steve one day, and we say, hey, Steve, because like everyone goes to the the state fair at Alaska with their giant cab cab cabbages, right?
+
+[42:37] And they you know have a contest and Steve always wins. So we called him and be like, hey, Steve, I don't want to know the secret of your giant cabbage because frankly, I'm never gonna grow a giant cabbage. It's just not what we're gonna do. What I want to do is buy one of your giant cabbages. Like maybe like the second biggest cabbage you have this year.
+
+[42:53] I would like to buy that because you're not gonna take it to the state fair. And it seemed like he was gonna do it. Like we were gonna get a truck, we were gonna, we're we were pitching it to television programs, right, Nastasia? Like for like late night and whatnot. The idea is is to, because I said to him, I was like, so does the cabbage being that big, does it make it taste awful?
+
+[43:12] Does it taste like garbage? He's like, Nope, tastes fine. That's right, isn't that what he said? Nope, tastes fine. Dentist, this guy.
+
+[43:19] And and uh we were gonna truck it, and then he just stopped returning our telephone calls. But look what he did with this last one. He wielded up some bears. And the bears ate it? The bears ate it.
+
+[43:28] I like that. So here's what I want to here's what I want to do. I want to buy a brand new, by the way, chainsaws require oil to oil the bar to lubricate the bar. This is a well known fact, right? Now, those of you that don't care about the world, you can get like petroleum based bar oil.
+
+[43:46] I happen to use vegetable-based bar oil with stuff in it that like stops it from breaking down and has like biodegradable tacophier agents to keep it on the bar. But if you're not gonna do it long term, you could probably just use grapeseed oil, right? You get a brand new electric chainsaw with a long bar. You're gonna need a long bar for this one, right? And this Nastasi added this next part, right?
+
+[44:08] We get a s first we take the cabbage, right? And we take the chainsaw and we hack it into coleslaw with the chainsaw, and then you switch over after you've done all your food work, you switch over and then you carve a bowl out of a giant ass Douglas fur stump, and then you eat the they like this like chainsaw, like Alaskan chainsaw coleslaw out of the giant tree stump. You in? I won't say no, but I feel like it's a waste to just chop it down to coleslaw. You got this giant cabbage.
+
+[44:35] What are you gonna do with it? Like, what you like? Can't you make the world's largest like cabbage leaf wrap or something? Like, well, there's enough. We could take some leaves off the outside.
+
+[44:43] A whole pig cabbage wrap? No, the or the rice and meat with oh my god, Nastasi wants to make a stuffed cabbage with ground meat where you grind like whole animals and stick it inside of a single cabbage leaf. That's a lot of tomato sauce. It's a lot of tomato sauce. Anyway, if anyone out there is from Alaska and knows Steve Hubachek, please I'll start pestering Steve again.
+
+[45:06] This is in the fall. The reason Alaskan cabbage grows this way, people, is that cabbage size is dependent mainly on number of hours of daylight, right? And so they plant it in this like what would be fertile but not exhausted because the growing season is typically so short, but because they have those long, long, long hours of daylight starting now, uh, they get these giant freaking cabbages. And I want one real bad. Maybe Don, maybe we can fly there.
+
+[45:33] Maybe the three of us could go fly get one. I think you think you could put it on an Amtrak. That's cheaper. But Amtrak, what do you get? Tell them that you're a student and that you gotta transport it to your dorm.
+
+[45:43] Isn't that the cheap one? Anything on an Amtrak. Wait, what? Yeah. Why'd you go to dead relatives?
+
+[45:53] She wouldn't have said that if she hadn't done it. Because she had to once move a dead body. No, Nastasia is not yet realized that the government looks at your search history after you've committed a crime. These days before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:08] We're gonna wrap it up. All right. Anyway, uh, so I don't know. Uh we were supposed to get to some questions that theoretically I've missed. This is a clean slate.
+
+[46:17] Theoretically, you absolutely missed them. This is a clean slate, people. I don't know what questions I've missed. So if I have not answered your question, email them to Nastasia because they have been officially been missed. I have missed them.
+
+[46:30] Email them again. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[46:52] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[47:18] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code CookingIssues. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the radio network every Tuesday from I don't know, like 1215, 12, something like this, to about, you know, 1245, like one o'clock from Bernard's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brrrrklin. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing?
+
+[0:48] Good. Got Dave in the booth. Good. And Habitual Line Stepper and America's favorite punching bag. Peter Kim.
+
+[0:58] Dave will talk about the borough he's in with about 10 times more enthusiasm than he, you know, talks about the two of us. That's true. Or Dave in the booth. Brooklyn! Hey, see that person out there?
+
+[1:10] You know what they're excited to be? They're excited to be in Brooklyn. Do they know who we are? No idea at all. I mean, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:16] Don't know, don't care. Don't know, don't care. Brooklyn is a bigger deal than any of us. My friend. I'm just noting.
+
+[1:21] Observing. Yeah, but like I stand by that. What about you, Dave? You know it. Yeah, see what I mean?
+
+[1:28] Hell, I I don't even like coming to Brooklyn because I prefer to stay in Manhattan. Oh, so sorry about it. Wow. It's not that. It's it's like everyone like it's the people who live in Brooklyn, they're like, I don't really like to go to Manhattan.
+
+[1:39] I just go there for work. You know what I mean? Like you know what I mean? No one likes to, no one who lives in New York, here's the messed up thing, actually likes to leave like a five block radius. People who don't know this about New Yorkers, we don't like to actually move around within our city.
+
+[1:53] We all think we like to travel. Yeah. Anyone who lives outside of New York, they're like, oh, you're they're only like 45 minutes away from you. You must see them all the time. And we're like, oh 45 minutes away.
+
+[2:06] What? You know what I mean? Like, they're like, they moved like 40 blocks north of me, which is what is that, like three miles, something like this? Not even. And you're like, 40 blocks away, they're dead to me.
+
+[2:19] You know what I mean? It's like that's just how New York works. Yeah. It's pathetic. We are the most provincial people.
+
+[2:25] Like, we might as well, we might as well be like uh, I don't know, like from the 19th century or something like that. In terms of our, you know, getting around habits. Except for Peter. Peter goes around, sees everyone, does everything. Man about town.
+
+[2:38] Yes. Yeah. So Nastasia, did you go to the best new chefs event last night? Yeah. How'd it go?
+
+[2:43] Food and wines, best new chefs with our uh friend of the show, Jordana Rothmont. Was she uh crowded? Yeah, was she I didn't see her. Last time I went with Stas, she left me high and dry. I did.
+
+[2:53] I like Jordana and then I left. Yeah. Yeah, that's Nastasia doesn't want to ever, she's like me this way, does not ever want to be anywhere alone because I was with Peter. She doesn't really like people. Right.
+
+[3:05] So here's the thing. Here's the thing. It's not just that Stas doesn't want to talk to other people, which you know, that's her prerogative. She will actually sort of suck my attention or other people's attention away, so I can't even function as a normal sort of social human being around her. Until she has another wing unit, and then yeah, then you're sloughed off.
+
+[3:24] Sort of. Yeah. Like, you know, like she still manages the shoot. You know the extra hate. The extra ship you get in Gallagher 3.
+
+[3:30] Yeah. Like that's either you get you get shot off the side, you know, wheely, wheel, wheely wheel, we'll be right back. And then, like, you know, and then like you get shot off the side, she just keeps going. That's right. Gets another extra ship.
+
+[3:40] Yeah. Dave's my favorite wingman. Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, because like nostalgia looks social next to me.
+
+[3:44] With the two of us, we're the worst. We show up at a party, we both put like the most disgusted look on our face and get to the farthest corner, find a glass of booze, go to the farthest corner of the room, and just go. Yeah. Well, with you, Dave, so for normal people, the distribution of conversation is small conversations with a lot of people. With you, it's like 99% of your time with the first person you spoke you speak to when you arrive.
+
+[4:14] Yeah, those are the things that you're doing. And you haven't even like hit the elevator button. You know, you know, I you know, all right, whatever. That sounds about right. Whatever.
+
+[4:27] All right. Uh so uh what do you you you want you want to actually do a question? Oh, by the way. There's somebody on the phone. There's someone on the phone.
+
+[4:34] All right, all right, all right, call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, Nastasha. Uh Peter. Uh this is actually uh sorry, sorry, sorry. Go ahead.
+
+[4:46] This is Antoine, previously from Booker Tom, Florida. Oh, you moved? Uh I did. I'm in uh Burlington, Vermont now. Wow, huh?
+
+[4:54] Nice. I mean, that's very different. Very different. I like you, I always hated the heat over there, you know. So I've been there since I was two and could no longer do it.
+
+[5:02] Are you like one of those drivers who like your foot's either all the way on the accelerator pedal or all the way on the brake? Generally, yeah. Yeah, all or nothing. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:12] Yeah. All right. So what so what's going up in Vermont? Uh you know, a lot, man. It's uh really good quality just food from here, year round, you know.
+
+[5:21] Year come year round, year round. I mean, come on, year round. Vermont, what are they making in the in the dead of winter? You haven't been there in the dead of winter yet, right? I've been here in the dead of winter.
+
+[5:29] What are they making in the dead of winter that's so great? We have root we have rutabages. Alright, fair. Dairy as well. Oh dairy and here.
+
+[5:43] Rutabegas. A lot of ferments. I love a good ruta. So I actually had a question regarding bottled cocktails, but with uh carbonating them inside of a bottle. Shoot.
+
+[5:55] Uh if there's any recommended pressure you do for in there, like all I have right now is um is an easy whiffer, not the actual soda siphon. So I wonder if you're never use never use a soda siphon. What's that? Never use a soda siphon. There's no there's no purpose for them.
+
+[6:12] Soda siphons serve exactly one purpose and that is to reenact three stooges uh episodes. If you wish to reenact a three stooges episode, the soda siphon is the best tool you can possibly use for it, unless you get the real old fashioned seltzer things. But barring that, soda siphon, fantastic at that. If you want to spray somebody and you want all of the bubbles to be gone from your liquid by the time it hits uh your opponent's face, a soda siphon is the way to go. Other than that, or if you really enjoy cleaning out large bottles that have very, very small necks such that you can't get inside the bottle and clean out the residue of what you've put into it.
+
+[6:50] If if you if you want to spend all your time doing that, then use a soda siphon. Otherwise, don't so yeah, the uh question at hand is whether you recommend an adding an extra CO2 cartridge to a whipping siphon to bottle a cocktail or or what specifically. So when you're using first of all, like I'm assuming you're doing this for yourself and not professionally, right? Yeah, for myself. Yeah, okay.
+
+[7:14] Because if you're doing it professionally, this is it's a freaking nightmare to because it's so expensive to use those cartridges. But uh the procedure is you have to do uh a pre-carb with one and then uh vent out and then a s and then the actual carb with the second unit, second charger. So you're into two chargers anyway. Adding a third charger probably won't help you much, right? Um just because of the the the way the thing works.
+
+[7:42] But the the you really, if you're gonna start bottling cocktails and you don't have you're not gonna do like uh the liquid bread cap, you're gonna do like crown court caps into smaller bottles. I will tell you the way that the very crappy way, hateful way that I do it. I hate it, but here's here's how it works. First of all, the the most important thing in a carbonated um beverage uh in terms of long-term storage is minimizing the head space. You need to minimize the head space in your bottle.
+
+[8:10] So I can't stress this enough. Headspace is your enemy. You need to leave a little bit of head space because otherwise uh small pluck uh pre plucture, small pressure fluctuations will blow it blow the top, you know, blow your bottle apart. But minimize that head space because trust me on that, just do that. Uh now, so the way that I do it is I usually chill my bottles.
+
+[8:33] You don't want to over-chill your bottles. If you over chill your bottles like freezer chill them, then it gets so cold that you'll get uh ice crystals on the inside of your bottle and the cocktails you pour in will get little crystals. Those will form nucleation sites in your host. So I would just say I usually will submerse in uh ice water uh for a while. You're like you just totally immerse them in ice water so they're they're thoroughly chilled.
+
+[8:55] Then here's what you do: you carbonate, and this I would do this with a with uh like a two-liter bottle and a liquid bread cap. Or like do it again again and again. You could do it with an EC, but you're gonna spend a fortune. Do my guy, I remember you you seen uh Willy Wonk in the chocolate factory? It's going to cost him a fortune and five.
+
+[9:10] Uh that's uh Augustus glue. So anyway, like the point is is that if you have uh you're gonna like I wanted I wanted to do it for like an eight ounce something to bring to the beach. Right, right. Like by the lake, rather. Right.
+
+[9:20] So here's what you gotta do. You gotta you're gonna carbonate like a good bit, like 30% or more, more than you need, right? Then you're gonna put your chilled bottles into a uh like a half hotel pan, and you're going to fill it up to the top, right? And then once the foaming subsides, keep adding, letting it pour into the hotel pan, right? And then when it as soon as it gets to the proper level, cap it right away.
+
+[9:46] Don't even wait for the foam to cap it, right? And then re then later on for your next batch, recarb the stuff that went into a hotel pan. That's the only way to get good crown cork stuff. Now, if you're willing to take your EC whipper to the beach with you, which is not a bad call, yeah. Then just do a uh a full charger into your EC, vent, do another charger, shake it, wait, take it to the beach, vent it out, and then you know, enjoy a nice cocktail.
+
+[10:12] But you have to be willing to take your your EC whipper to the beach. Yeah, I'm not feeling that. No, but you they it's like I highly recommend getting a CO2 tank. Do you have a 20-pound CO2 tank? I do, and it leaked on my way up here, and so I need to get it filled up.
+
+[10:27] I want to get the whole set up for like a um te rater sort of idea, like you have in the book. Right. What size tank did you have leak on you? Uh this was a 25. Twenty twenty.
+
+[10:39] Was it what was it in a moving truck? Uh it was in my car with me. What the heck? It leaked dry. You didn't well, first of all, you shouldn't transport full tanks in your car, obviously.
+
+[10:50] You know what I mean? Like, but uh did you have any problems with getting well, obviously you're alive, so you didn't have any problems with getting poisoned. How fast did it leak? No, it was like a slow leak because I left it open. I guess I left the gauge open before.
+
+[11:03] So it could have been like before or after. I just didn't check till I I moved in. Right, right, right. All right. Well, get it refilled.
+
+[11:10] Go to just go to your local welding shop and get that tank refilled, and then I would get a s like a single liquid bread carbon cap and then hotel pans with your bottles and just carb, like I say, 30% more than you need and keep refilling, refilling, capping, then re-chill and recarb in the in the uh, you know, in the one or two-liter the stuff left over and keep going. So that that's how when I need to make uh carb on the road, that's what I do. I'm working on a better system, but I haven't built it yet. And if I was to do it from a keg grater, is there like a recommended pressure you'd have recommended or just what you recommend in the book coming off of that? Yeah, I mean the the like if you're gonna come off of a keg with with a cocktail, it's uh very difficult because of the uh foaming.
+
+[11:52] First of all, you need to get the cocktail. I'll go with a lower ABV cocktail. You need to get it extremely cold. You need a long, long uh hose. You need to go through a couple of rounds of a cold plate, um, like a couple, like two, three, and then um you need to get a really good uh compensator valve, so like much better than a beer line.
+
+[12:12] And then still I would put all of your um I would put all of your bottles into a half hotel pan and like fill, fill, fill, fill, fill, fill, and then keep like going around filling and spilling, as I like to say, filling and spilling. Then cap, cap, cap, cap, cap once you have the airspace very, very, you know, fairly small, and then you should get a decent decent, not great, decent level of carbonation. You also like you have to get your lines primed to get rid of any air bubbles in it. So like the first like the first like you know, four seconds off of a pole on your uh any keg system is gonna be real foamy. So you get your hotel pan, you get your stuff in it, you put your your gun over the hotel pan, you hold it down until it stops being like hyper foamy, and then start your fill and spills on the bottles in the hotel pan.
+
+[12:56] So it's it's it's not easy to do one or two, but it's not so bad when you're doing like 40, you know. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, let us know how it works. Yeah, for sure.
+
+[13:08] Thank you very much. Now, Peter, Kim, we David, Arnold. We had our uh museums, uh the Museum of Food and Drinks, uh yearly gala. So what was the shakedown? How was it?
+
+[13:20] That was our most successful event yet. I thought there was a lot of love in the room, and uh yeah, we also announced what our next exhibition is gonna be, which is cool. You were uh you were wrong. There was no love in the room. Oh, right, okay.
+
+[13:29] Sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah. All right. That was from Dave. Yep.
+
+[13:32] Yeah, yeah. No, but yeah, that's a little bit of a little bit of a little how much do we raise? Are you allowed to say or not? Yeah, yeah. Uh over 230K.
+
+[13:38] Wow. Just in one yeah, one night. Not bad. Yeah. Yeah, so now it's time.
+
+[13:42] Peter's gonna go to the Caribbean. Just keep it. Yeah, so that's right. You know. Peter Peter like is always wanted to learn steel drums.
+
+[13:50] Yeah. He's gonna learn steel drums. I'm gonna learn bagpipe, and we're gonna go, we're gonna have the world's only steel drum bagpipe band. And I can I can finally afford to replace the screens on my Sears All. Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:06] Oh, wait, sorry, it's out of stock. It's in my shopping cart on Amazon, but I can't seem to move it. Yeah. No, it's cool, man. I mean, having the jet of flame coming out of my cereiz all is really cool.
+
+[14:15] No, um, I can't eat eggs anymore. I know, I know. They're all goopy on top. No, man, I think it went really well. We had like just a lot of I mean You have to talk to Jim Leahy about his egg thing.
+
+[14:26] It's gross. Oh, really? What are you talking about? Tonight is his thing, but what do you mean, his thing? Okay, so Jim Leah's breakfast sandwiches.
+
+[14:34] So tell wait, first before you do this, tell the story about after the radio show what happened with what I what I call them. They got in a fight about something, and then Dave called Jim Leahy bread man. Hey breadman, and then Jim was like, whoa, I sound it sounds like you're calling me your hole and bread is ass and man is hole. And what did I say? And you said, yeah.
+
+[14:59] I know. Wow. So go ahead, go ahead. So he serves these breakfast sandwiches in his Chelsea shop. Right.
+
+[15:07] And the egg is supposed to be scrambled. And it is so bad. So yesterday. Wait, hold up, hold up. First of all, who scrambled eggs do you like?
+
+[15:17] From people that I personally know. Oh, I don't know. You don't know what scrambled eggs are like? Diner scrambled eggs. So you like garbage scrambled eggs.
+
+[15:25] Peter, I'm assuming you like French eggs. Both ways I like them. They're just different things. Sometimes I want the soft cook, sometimes I want the root love. So he he boils them for three and a half minutes in the shell.
+
+[15:42] In the shell. Okay. Then he That's a soft boiled egg. Cracks them. Very soft.
+
+[15:47] And into a food processor. What's this Roy Orbison stuff in the background? Is that from you? No. Are you singing that in your head?
+
+[15:56] No. Alright, go ahead. Can we talk about eggs? And then puts oil and salt in there and then just whizzes it. So does it turn into like a like a wait, oil and salt.
+
+[16:07] But that's probably still really liquidy. It that sounds more like a sauce than an egg. And then one piece fell between my toes one day and I just got two hours. Wow. First of all, what is who did you eat it with?
+
+[16:21] Mark thinks it's not very good. Right. Is this a I've told Jim yesterday? I've never had I'd like to hear James like Jim uh make the case for this. Go tonight.
+
+[16:31] What's the theory of it? Is it supposed to be what texture is? Like so it's easier for his staff to scoop out like soft boiled eggs. Soft scrambled eggs. Right.
+
+[16:39] One that makes soft scrambled eggs. Yeah. I think that's very hard for a staff to do. Here's what I don't like. Here's what let me tell you about the advantage.
+
+[16:47] Like I always would go not French soft style scrambled eggs on a sandwich because like they extrude and fall over everything. Even if you love them, like let's just for a better word call it mini curd, like the French style scrambled egg, which is the mini curd scrambled eggs that requires low heat and constant stirring. I've never tried this pseudo egg type product. Pseudo egg type product. But like let's just because I can't picture exactly what the texture of what you're talking about is.
+
+[17:14] I think I can find it. Why don't we just discuss like an actual like on a sandwich you want structural integrity? Right. So omelet style is the way to go. And the best way to do fast omelet style stuff isn't necessarily scoop, is to do like large scale flat sheet folded, not sweet, but like tomato, not that thick, but like that style, like folded bop bop bop up, and then cut into cut into the shape.
+
+[17:38] This is what it looks like. Let me see. But it's does it's great for radio. Yeah. Nastasi really understands that you people can'm a great okay.
+
+[17:47] Dave, describe it. I'm the great describer. Describe the dish. Let me see, it does. Let me see.
+
+[17:52] I'll I will describe for you. And coming around the track. Uh we have uh let me see. So it's a it's a piece of bread. Oh, really?
+
+[17:59] Breadman makes a piece of bread. It's a piece of bread. Bread man. And uh he's put through it, but he hasn't inserted it all the way. You guys familiar with that with that bamboo, that bamboo toothpick that has the little knot at the end, the little trifle knot at the end of it.
+
+[18:12] One of those that's kind of green on one side and brown on the other, little you know I'm talking about, like a cocktail pick. He has that, but he's only stuck it about a sixteenth of an inch into the top of the bread. Right. See, the whole reason for that stick is to shove it through the damn bread so that when you're cutting it, the bread pieces uh don't uh fall apart. And when you're picking it up, notably for a club sandwich.
+
+[18:31] Most notably for a club sandwich, which I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure is one of the top four sandwiches. Yes. Top four, gotta be, top five, maybe. I'd have to go through the sandwiches to be sure, but definitely top two. Yeah, I am the sandwich man.
+
+[18:46] Has anyone ever been if you let's say you eat bacon in turkey, right? Yes. Has anyone ever been upset when they were handed a club sandwich? I have, because sometimes when a place does a a turkey, uh uh a turkey be like uh club sandwich, they'll do like not like the cold cut turkey, like like board's head, whatnot, but they'll take like actual turkey meat, which is good, but they won't season it. And I I've had so many bad turkey club sandwiches where the turkey meat is unseasoned.
+
+[19:14] Do you carry it? Do you carry a small toothpick with you? What's that? Do you carry a small ice pick with you? Or myself.
+
+[19:19] Whoa. Oh, do you I like how uh the first move is just yeah, in my own misery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just can you imagine if you if like someone handed you a turkey sandwich, you took a bite, and then you just stuck an ice pick in inside of your head and fell over.
+
+[19:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like I've noticed that actually in New York City, like uh diner joints, like you'll all if you get a turkey club, it'll almost always come unseasoned. So I asked for extra salt and I asked for the coleslaw and I put the coles on the turkey. I think I know why this has happened.
+
+[19:46] Let me mention this. I think I know why this has happened. It's because people are like, there's so much salt in deli meats. I'm gonna make a healthy cloud sandwich. I'm gonna not gonna put salt.
+
+[19:56] No. Yeah, yeah. No, salt salt the dang meat. Yeah, the club is a little bit of a other thing. No, it is healthy, dude.
+
+[20:02] I mean, that's what pisses me off. It is stop thinking about food. Like, in other words, I was talking to Shorty about our menu. And like he had a thing. Healthy bites.
+
+[20:11] It's all healthy. The hell I'm not saying it's bad for you. I'm just saying, you know, like it is what it is. No, I'm not I'm specifically saying that. Don't think about your food as a freaking.
+
+[20:21] No, you said it's not you in your mind, you're still playing into the game. You've played the game. It's like it's like freaking Jumanji. Once you're playing the game, you're host. Don't play the game.
+
+[20:32] Don't think about it as a healthy choice or a not healthy choice because you're buying into crap science and crap arguments. I was being flippant when I said that. I'm just I'm saying it doesn't matter. Who cares? It is what it is.
+
+[20:43] It's a turkey club. I can't. You know why I can't enjoy it. Yeah, exactly. But the reason I care about people buying into it is people who don't otherwise, they do don't otherwise know what's actually going on or think make decisions that ruin the way things taste, have ruined Peter Kim's lunch on multiple occasions, as far as we know.
+
+[21:02] Based on the case, I've never seen the other part of so defensive on behalf of Peter Kim. This is incredible. Well, yeah, yeah. The other thing that's also in this line is the the lack of the the the uh under application of mayo to a club sandwich. I need like multiple layers of mayo.
+
+[21:17] Dave, are you that jerk who doesn't like mayonnaise? Whoa, this is in moderation. Listen, a turkey club sandwich without mayonnaise is just I'm not saying you should do a turkey club without mayonnaise, Dave. Wow. This is it.
+
+[21:32] Here's another thing. I've said it before, I said it again. This is it. Sandwich disassembly people. The moment that they don't give unraveled.
+
+[21:39] Peter, what do you think about people who disassemble sandwiches? As much as I want to wind you up even further right now, they're the worst. They're the worst! They're the worst. People who disassemble sandwiches are the worst.
+
+[21:51] Yes. Worst. If you don't like, look, we have done the courtesy of putting on the menu what it is that is on the freaking sandwich. If you have a problem with that, if you disassemble your sandwich, you are calling me an a-hole. You're calling me a breadmate.
+
+[22:06] What if you get a uh mealy tomato? Yeah. That is the fault of the restaurant. The tomato should be removed, and everyone back there should beat their heads against the wall until they understand what they have done. Yes.
+
+[22:17] Wow. You know what I'm saying? But the the issue is it like it's because you're sitting there like she's between two parents getting divorced or something. We are so used in this country to the figurative tomato. There's no point in a figure of tomato.
+
+[22:30] You can go by right now, you can go to my local garbage supermarket, which is a what what's your what's the local source? Well, that's important. Food in Polarium. They went out of business. Food and polium.
+
+[22:42] There's still a couple left. Yeah. Or like, whatever. Sea Town, Key Market, what like out in uh California, what's your garbage mart called? Uh Ralph's.
+
+[22:50] Ralph's. You can go to Ralph's in Covina, right? You know, home of Good Burger, and you can walk into almost any garbage supermarket right now and buy a decent hot house, like a compari or a worst name ever, kumato. That's the worst name for a publicly available food product in the world, a tomato. Not to mention cherry tomatoes.
+
+[23:09] Cherry tomatoes, hard to slice. Hard to put on a sandwich, yes. Difficult to put on sandwich, can be done in a pinch. Yeah. Any one of you out there can get something that has a tomato-y like flavor right now.
+
+[23:20] Forget seasonality, forget that. You can do that. Or you can buy that mealy styro garbage. What's the point? Yeah.
+
+[23:27] What's the point? And seriously, retail. I'm not talking like wholesale prices. Retail for $3.99. I can go buy a pound of decent hot house, like Kampari tomatoes, slice one per freaking sandwich.
+
+[23:42] Did you get you buy the word on the bike ride over here or something? What's going on? I have this amazing image in my head as Dave of Dave at like 60, 7 years old, alone in Union Square, like in a park, just screaming this into the air. Like, you can buy a nice tomato. Why are you buying these garbage tomatoes?
+
+[23:57] You're the first against the wall if you get these tomatoes. Well, here's the other thing. People want to buy a decent quality, non-one of those Kampari tomato. I had this argument yesterday with someone. Alright.
+
+[24:06] They want to. I'm like, okay, great. This person's tomatoes, like maybe they're good now. Are they good all year round? Like that's what these hot houses like.
+
+[24:14] For first of all, there is a tomato, which you want on your sandwich, because for some reason we can't do without it. And I like the tomato. I like a tomato on my sandwich, like one of these comparisons or kumatoes, which is gross. I buy them, it's just why would you call it that? It's horrible name.
+
+[24:30] But anyway, point being that like that's fine, but you should just mentally distinguish between a tomato, which that is, and the tomato. Right. The tomato is the one that is in peak season from a real farmer out of a real nice piece of dirt, namely Stokes in uh old Tapan, New Jersey. But uh, and two of their, but I'm not even gonna mention their varieties because I need some this year, I don't want you chumps going and buying my tomato. That's how much I'm gonna bogard the tomatoes this year, people.
+
+[24:59] Well, you know, Dave, it's all because of that genetic modify stuff going on. They're playing with the molecules, you know, the tomatoes, and it's just not natural. Oh, those GMOs, don't get me started. Really don't get me started. Like for real, right?
+
+[25:11] All right, we're back to the sandwich. Nastasia's phone is like her screen lock is uranus, which is weird. I think we better take a break and reset. We gotta talk about the freaking eggs. After the break.
+
+[25:22] Coming back. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. This week we have a question from HRN intern Sam. When cooking faro, she likes to toast it first for extra flavor. However, it's difficult to toast it right after rinsing.
+
+[25:49] Do you have any tips for quickly drying faro or other grains? Huh. Why not toast it and then rinse it? Like, why not just toast it first and then rinse it afterwards? You could throw it in a low oven and that'll dry it out pretty quickly.
+
+[26:01] So put it in a low oven, wait for it to get tacky and dry, then you can ramp the heat and do the toast out, right? But all depends on what you're trying to trying to do, but here's a bunch of different reasons to rinse something. One, you think it's filthy. Two, it has kind of extra starch and other stuff on the outside, like products of milling or whatever, and you want to get rid of those for texture reasons on the cooked product, right? So if it's the latter and you're just trying to get rid of something, right?
+
+[26:26] Uh, or even if it's filthy, and but you're gonna like cook it wet later, then go ahead and and toast it first, then rinse it. Stock up on all your grains. Go to Bob's Redmill.com and use the code cooking issues. That's one word, all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order. And we're back.
+
+[26:47] Okay, so uh giving Dave a couple sedatives. I were describing uh see the jewelry. Okay, so speaking of sedatives, right? I'm on this new, I don't even remember what it's called. It's called like xylophone or something, some new allergy thing.
+
+[26:59] Cause two days ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. And it's kind of messed me up a little bit. I took it last night because uh I had this, I've never had this crazy.
+
+[27:07] I was uh like asleep, fell asleep on the couch as one does. I get up to go to bed, and like I choked my throat was a little bit closed, but not 100%, you know what I mean? Because of season, and like somehow, like I they say the doctor says they think it was Nastas is gonna love this, a phlegm ball. Oh got lodged in my airway, and literally, like, so I stand up and I think I'm fine, and then you you can't breathe at all. It's like someone shoved a cork in your throat.
+
+[27:34] Right. And so what'd you do? Well, so like I was like, you know how I am, right? I get violently, like, I'm like, I try to breathe in, and uh and all that makes it through is this like tiny whistling noise, but I do it so hard, like popping blood vessels and stuff that like I wake my wife up, Jen from a sound sleep. I'm like, Oh my god.
+
+[27:58] Like like that, and then like just like trying to get air in, and then like so I'm like, I'm not breathing. I'm like, okay, I've got a couple more seconds before I pass out. And then I went, like, you know, I can't draw the accent, but I take all the stuff that's in me, and I just do like a I do a like a like a Hulk Hogan like like shirt rip, like try to expel anything that's in my lungs out, like, ah, and I got a cough out. Oh my god. And then like after like like one or two of that, I was able to breathe again.
+
+[28:24] You should be the spokesperson for Musinex. Yeah. I I feel like I am becoming the actual mucus character from Mucinx. Like a kind of like a same position. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[28:36] My hat color. That's why I'm wearing a hat that's the color of the muciness uh mucanex mucus blob because I'm trying to become that character. So anyway, so I'm on this medicine now. But it does mess me up a little bit. Maybe that's why I'm in a salty.
+
+[28:47] Do you so that you got the flimball out? Well, I'm alive. But did you see the flimball? No, it was like 2 30 in the morning. I was like, and then like I had such an adrenaline ride.
+
+[28:58] Can you unlock your phones and went? I thought you just said your phone unlock code on the air. Anyway, uh I had it by the way, Dax just got ripped off by somebody. Did you know this? I have no love for the post office.
+
+[29:09] I used to work for them, right? No love. Nastasia hates them. What was our famous quote, Nastasia? It should be called USP because there's no service.
+
+[29:19] That's right. But uh Dax, someone tried to rip Dax off in a in a scam. He's Dax wants to be an entrepreneur. So he's like buying stuff from the you heard of this brand called Supreme. Yes.
+
+[29:29] Yes. And yeah, so Supreme's dropping stuff. So he buys like whatever he can get from the Supreme drop and then tries to resell it. This is what all of the middle school kids are doing here, like in his neighborhood, and then reselling it. So Dax buys, of all things, a freaking ashtray.
+
+[29:44] An ashtray. And then he gets scammed by someone who's like some sort of swap. But here's the information. Here's the information. You can now recall a package.
+
+[29:53] Did you know that? That you just sent. You could be like, you know what? Don't deliver it. Oh, really?
+
+[29:57] And so we got it back. Nice. Remember when you were who were you buying something from? And the guy was like, just send the money. Oh, we were trying to buy a tractor.
+
+[30:05] Yeah. Guys, uh, last I checked this show is not called postage issues. Oh, Peter, but that's a good one. Where he was like. Well, Nastasi was like, yeah, Nastasia is very good at this.
+
+[30:16] Like, if you ever need someone to take on a spammer like double barrel full board, like take Nastasia with you. Same way, like, if you ever need to get around a line and you need someone who has absolutely no compunction about having everyone in the general vicinity wish her dead. Yeah. Take Nastasia with it. But if you want to make friends, don't.
+
+[30:35] Yeah. So anyway, so back to Jimmy. That's a trade-off. Back to Jim Wayne's sandwich. Here's the issue on this.
+
+[30:39] I think sandwiches should only be made by people like Peter Kim who actually enjoy eating sandwiches, right? The problem with having the French style uh egg on a sandwich is, as I've said, extrusion. Anyone that makes a sandwich that cannot be eaten without all of the goop extruding out of the sandwich has made a grave, grave error. That's absolutely right. This is why, like, I love the old days of the hollowed out bread so that the stuff stays inside of the side.
+
+[31:05] Still exists. You've got to ask for it. It's done. You know what Subway used to do that. They subway used to do the V cut hollow out on their bread.
+
+[31:12] Oh, that's right. They used to. That's right. And it was a higher quality sandwich back then because it didn't leak all over everything the way it does now. Um also excessive mayo to go back to mayo.
+
+[31:21] You do need mayo on a turkey club, but a lot of those places, they're like excessively goopify. Right. A sandwich is a delicate. That's my problem, Dave. I just don't like excessive mayo.
+
+[31:31] Yeah, excessive. Yeah, right. Excessive goopiness is good. Plus, like salted veg on your thing if it's salted too far in advance. Right, unless it's a unless it's an inherently crunchy thing like bell peppers.
+
+[31:42] Right. Which but anyway, but like the my issue is is excessive goop is bad, but between excessive goop and excessive dry, I'll take excessive goop. If you had to go one way. That's absolutely right. Like I think people don't understand every like if you have the top, let's say some idiot just puts mayo on the bottom slice of bread, right?
+
+[32:02] Then your mouth, the roof of your mouth, which doesn't produ I don't know if you know this. I don't know if you've been alive, but like the roof of your mouth doesn't produce saliva. The bottom of your mouth produces sled. Yes. Yes.
+
+[32:13] So like if you have an incredibly dry top surface, you bite in, you excoriate the top of your freaking mouth, and it's all that dryness up in the roof area palette section, and unless you have enough moisture to moisten the whole bite as you bite down, it's an unpleasant experience, no matter what the bottom of it's like. That's right. So, you know, it always make sure that this is why always if you're gonna put it when you put your liquidy condiment of choice or a creamy condiment of choice, always at least do the top. I'm a firm believer in bottom as well, though. That's right.
+
+[32:45] Right? Yeah. And when you have lettuce on a sandwich, right, think about placing the lettuce in a way that prevents the bread from getting soggy because the lettuce is a semi-impermeable membrane. And also thinking friction against surfaces like slippery versus against slippery is not good. Right, right.
+
+[33:02] This is why I like I like raw onion in a sandwich. You guys, Ron? Yeah, I like raw onion. Jen hates raw inion, thinly sliced. Oh, yeah, thinly sliced, right?
+
+[33:09] But like a raw onion is a good anti-slip surface in between things like tomato and avocado. Right. Let's just say. Uh, because it it kind of smooshes into them and then locks them in into place. Give your sandwiches a good firm, a good not don't crush it.
+
+[33:26] I'm not saying crush it, a good firm press before slicing or serving with your hand to lock all the ingredients into place. I think is also a key move. But anyway, so I highly recommend before you serve anything, eat a sandwich and see whether or not the vast majority of the ingredients stay on the bread or whether they end up between Nastasia's toes. And if they end up as sweet Nastasius toes, you have made a grave error. Right, Stas?
+
+[33:52] Yeah, it was not good. Fine later. I feel sick. Egg toes, toe eggs. All right.
+
+[33:59] So I heard we got a question in from the room of Much Chatting. Oh, yeah. Somebody in the chat room was asking about a vending machine at existing conditions. Yes, we have one. We in fact have two.
+
+[34:09] We have Vendo Calrizian and we have Andoni Antonio Venderis. Are the two machines? Because it's a Vendo is the name of the of the brand that we did. So uh we uh bought these old uh soda vending machines and I've modified them to go down to stirred cocktail temperatures so they hover in fact slightly colder so that they stay so they it hovers in and around it hovers between minus four and minus three Celsius, but it's so the drinks stay a solid minus four C. And then we have existing conditions tokens, and you drop the token in, and then you can pull out uh the uh the cocktail of your choice.
+
+[34:46] What did you pull two? You can't that because it's a real vending machine, like it's a real vending machine. So what happens is is you put the token in, and this is the part because I'm not using the original coin mech that we had to work on. Free vend is not a problem, but putting the you have to put the coin in, then you have to uh make it such that it doesn't accept another coin until someone has pulled it. Then once they pull it, it relocks.
+
+[35:09] You know what the old school people used to do? The guy was telling me, you know who it is? It's your boy, but I can't mention on air because I don't want you buying the rest of his machines because I'm going to buy them. But anyway, he was saying they're weird people. They're up from like you like I know all you people who you know are from other parts of the country, not from the Northeast.
+
+[35:26] You think that like you think Connecticut and you think like you think like Greenwich, Connecticut, right? So you're thinking Greenwich Westport, like oh, like you know, with the pinky out and like on their boats and their asscots. No, Connecticut ass cot. Connecticut is like full of like hicks and swamp Yankees once you get in off the coast. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:47] And we're like, Davis hated on so many people. And let me tell you something. I love the I love those folks. Like they're my people. I love those folks.
+
+[35:55] You know what I'm saying? But like they're beautiful, beautiful people. That's like that's like you know, like losers. I know, I mean, like, you know, I feel I feel at home with those folks, you know what I'm saying? But my point is that is that we're getting we're getting our soda machine from that kind of crew and not from you know the you know Greenwich, Connecticut, you know, yak.
+
+[36:17] I forgot the soda with a vending machine. Anyway, so uh so the yeah, the what he said what they used to do, what the kids used to do is they would open the door because it's the old school where it has the door on the side that you can open and then you physically pull the bottle out, it doesn't drop it, right? He said what they used to do is pull the bottle out like a quarter of an inch with a cup and then just pop all the lids off and dump all the first sodas into cups and drink it and walk away. Wow. Because people are garbage.
+
+[36:43] If someone does that in our bar, don't forget we can see you and we can lock the door. You know what I mean? Uh it's not just me. We have lots of large people working with us. I mean, I'm not a large person, but yeah, but you could kill someone because you have a simian crease.
+
+[36:57] And anger, so yeah, so we pop Supapipot, who apparently now is like, you know, like doing very well in in Bangkok, right? So I have what's called a semi increase. So a semi increase is there's a line across your palm. So like most of you, if you look at your hand, describe this, Peter. If you look at your hand, you have two lines uh that go across your palm.
+
+[37:17] I got one. Goes straight across. And it's called uh a simian crease. Which means you're either. Well, it's it's found in monkeys, hence simian, and usually means that you're a monkey, like an like an ape, or meant mental there's mentally mentally retarded, like l like literally, like it's like a sign.
+
+[37:37] No, I mean I'm talking about the literal medical thing. Like it's a medical thing. Okay. Anyway, so uh so we've always joked about that, basically that I've and so our you know old intern, like we pop, looked at it and said, Oh, in Thailand, that means that someday you will accidentally kill somebody. And he was very serious.
+
+[37:57] Yeah, yeah, dead serious. Yeah. He's like, you will someday you will accidentally kill someone. He's like, you won't kill them on purpose. Yeah.
+
+[38:03] I'm like, well my god, it's so specific. Such a specific palm reason. Yeah, you see that happening, Peter. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's almost killed me a few times accidentally.
+
+[38:12] What? Don't know. Things that you do on your own that result in your death are still on you, even if I was the instigator. All right. Johnny uh Johnny Reverie wrote in, hey, Nastasia, Dave, and Dave in the booth.
+
+[38:24] Nothing for you, Peter. Silent T. He had no idea he was gonna be here. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[38:30] Uh oh, but guys, working my way back through the cooking issues catalog. As soon as someone says working my way back, I have this song. And are you gonna give me a burning love inside? No. Yeah, get to it because there's somebody on the phone then.
+
+[38:41] Uh all right. Uh well, this is gonna take a long time. You want to do the phone? I'll do it. Three minutes.
+
+[38:45] Do the phone then. Uh okay, well, I would so what Johnny wants to taught me to talk about, well, I'll get to the phone. I have a question regarding uh Dave's research methods. Uh often refer to interesting academic articles and responsible listeners' questions, wondering how you're able to find such pertinent detailed research. Are you just using Google Scholar or do you have access to more uh academic databases?
+
+[39:03] I break into something called the Web of Science, which is Elsevier's database. Uh I know that they're a gun-running group, but whatever, they have a good database. I also use um Wiley online, and those two have a lot of uh stuff. You can also use JSTOR. Like I have a lot of uh JSTOR has a lot of the older stuff.
+
+[39:21] Um and you can use something like Google Scholar to get a first couple of hits, but once you get into it and you get good search terms on those, you can download a bunch of stuff and then download the bibliographies, look at it and dig it. That's typically the way I do it. Um but the problem is, like, for instance, you had a question like uh does salting mushrooms earlier in the cooking process dry out moisture? I suspect it does, but maybe you can shed some light on why it does or does not. This kind of problem isn't typically addressed in the scientific literature because and here's the secret the the scientific literature only is written if there's money behind it.
+
+[39:52] So if there's an industrial problem, if it if you can save a gram of oil by doing it over the course of making, you know, billions of potato chips, there's a lot of money to do research on it. If there's something about fat reduction or some garbage stuff about health, some fake lies about how something is gonna save your life, or something that Dave would be interested in. Or end it, there's a lot of research. But we have to think about the problem that industry wants to solve. And if you can think about a problem that you're interested in that industry wants to solve, there's a lot of science behind it.
+
+[40:20] Specifically on mushrooms, the answer is you salt them uh as you're cooking them because you really want to get as much uh moisture out of those mushrooms as as possible. I salt and crowd. You can go into my old cooking issues uh blog, which still exists, I looked at it the other day, and look at the post on mushrooms. But I'm a firm believer, the old school French of like fry a single mushroom at the time is totally wrong. Crowd those suckers in a pan.
+
+[40:45] If you do anything other than crowding them and salting them beforehand, you're an enemy of quality. So just uh go do that. Uh and hope Booker can make it back on the show to talk about his first cooking experience as a pasta flyer. Huh? Huh?
+
+[40:56] What do you think? He's doing well or no? He's doing well. Yeah. All right, caller.
+
+[40:59] We have caller, caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hello. Hey. Hi.
+
+[41:03] Hey, on an old recommendation that you can made some synagogues beef soap, and it is indeed delicious during summertime. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. So you're talking about uh is there anything in it other than just a hibiscus?
+
+[41:14] Hibiscus, aka sorrel, aka jamaica. What? Sometimes ginger. Ginger. Yeah.
+
+[41:21] Ginger really good. Yeah. Yeah. That's a staple in my house. So here's my real question.
+
+[41:26] So I use a baking steel to make crepes because I don't have room for the whole big crepe maker, at least yet. Because it retains heat very nicely. Um and I'm trying to use the riquette as well. Right. But like when I'm spinning the riplette, a little invariably a little bit of cooked crepe gets stuck to the tip of the riplette as I'm spinning it, and then it tears a hole in my crepe.
+
+[41:48] Okay, so if I'm doing something wrong or what. Okay, so for those of you that don't know, uh raplets, so for those of you that haven't made crepes professionally, but you have had someone try to squeegee your car, right? A raplette is basically a crepe squeegee, right? Now the French Reclet uh raplets, raplette, not racette, raplette, are um, they look like wooden squeegees, right? With a like, and they uh the wood is kind of like made to a little bit of a knife edge, and I'd say they're oh, what's yours?
+
+[42:18] Like six, seven inches long, the six, seven inches wide. And mine physically a round dowel on a round dowel. Oh no, I don't know. I never use that. I use the one that looks like a like a squeegee.
+
+[42:29] Squeegee, okay. All right. The one I use looks like a squeegee or a rake. I've never used the round dowel one. Maybe that's your problem.
+
+[42:36] Uh it gets caught on the interior tip or the exterior. So anyway, so what you do. So like as I'm spinning, like I have a central anchor point, and I try to keep it really level, and then I and I do a kind of a clockwise rotation, and I feel like always a little bit of cooked, partially cooked, gets hooked to the end of it. Right. And as I'm spinning in it, it just tears a whole a big tear across the rest of the crepe.
+
+[42:58] It's really annoying. Okay, so like typically like the way you do is you have your ladle, you pull your ladle out, and you can see this in doses. So dosif folks don't use anything like that, right, Peter? They just use the ladle, don't they? I don't know.
+
+[43:09] Anyway, so I don't remember. So you lay you lay you laid a little, you do your the same like you do the swirl that you're gonna do for uh like uh or you don't even really need to if the crepe batter is thin enough, but like the in fact I never used to. So some people you see some people they'll do the um the uh pizza sauce swirl. You know you know what I'm talking about, the pizza sauce swirl? Right.
+
+[43:27] Uh I don't think I ever used it. Maybe I did a little bit, just it needs to be a little bit flat, but then I drop it and there's literally no force on it. So and you do it fast enough, you're not getting I never really do it after the initial set. So I'm using it basically as the initial wipe around, but not so much, and I maybe I do two, two and a half full revolutions, but I can't ever remember saying I I would have holes in it, but if you're if the batter is cooked enough to f to stick to the uh exterior edge of the raplet, I'm thinking you're doing it too late in the process. Yeah, I'm trying to go fast.
+
+[44:02] I don't know what that's really annoying. Well you maybe maybe it's cooking real cooking real fast. Try one of the squeegee shape, go look for a squeegee-shaped replet and and see whether see whether that works. And remember, no down force. Are you using any down force?
+
+[44:16] No down force. And I'm trying to keep it even, but maybe maybe I am. Is it uh is your replet my replets because well, okay, so like my replets would always come apart, so I would keep them kind of moist. Maybe like I don't know whether that actually helps it, but like my replet was always moist. Um try to keep like a bowl of water and keep it soaking in it so that any like little bits that you adhere to it will kind of wash off.
+
+[44:41] But also, the other thing is are you letting your are you letting your how long are you letting your batter rest? I make it the night before. Okay, so you're letting it rest long enough because it's usually, you know, obviously like it takes the first couple of crepes to get the temperature of your of your thing right, right? And then or if you're using semi-fresh batter, you get those air bubbles and garbage which always cause tears and problems out in the first couple of crepes, and that's when you're really good. It's really the fifth, it's like the fifth through the thirtieth crepe that are good.
+
+[45:10] You know what I mean? Not like uh, you know, crepes one through five or like you know, family. The Russians really like their crepes, and there's the saying in Russian, like the first they call it bleeny, the first bleeny always sucks. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:23] Because because crepes and things like it, blinis, like doses are they're steady state operations. You want your you want your your uh heat source to be in a steady state, you want and you want your batter to be in a steady state. And so, you know, that's why same thing with stuff like El Pastor, like tacos al pastor or anything like that, is you you you someone cannot make the best El Pastor if they're not serving a billion units of it a second because it's best when the thing is rotating and it's on a high, steady heat to create that nice flavor on the outside of the meat, but you're continuously shaving so that it never dries out. So certain tricks like like that, certain not tricks, but certain recipes like that really respond well to volume uh and you know, and kind of constant production rather than like kind of one in one out. But anyway, let us know, let us know what happens.
+
+[46:16] Uh I don't know. Oh, you can't. We're done. I don't know. Well, what do you got?
+
+[46:19] What do you got? What do you got? What do you got? What do you got? This is my job.
+
+[46:22] I'm not gonna out them, but it was at a really uh well-established restaurant in Seattle, really nice, been around for forever. And they served these freaking delicious um savory donuts that were deep-fried in bear fat. And I said the chef about it, and he was like, Well, we get it from a USDA approved facility in Colorado where they use sharpshooters to shoot black bears, and that's why we're able to use bear fat in our commercial establishment, which seemed totally like BS to me. You know, here's the thing about uh strange meats. So I what was the name of this was the name of the guy we used to use, Nastassi?
+
+[46:58] Do you remember? No. So like we used to use this guy that told us everything was on the up and up, and we believed him, and then found out later that he had gotten arrested and done some jail time for being shady. So just look, I'm all look, if you're gonna call bears and you can somehow get USDA certification such that you can get bear fat, great, if it's all on the up and up. But just if it seems crazy, right?
+
+[47:19] It probably is. Cooking and juice. All right, all right, all right. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[47:40] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[48:07] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest.
+
+[0:26] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble response. Enjoy food the way nature intended. Alaska Seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable.
+
+[0:37] For more information, visit Wild Alaska Seafood.com. I'm HRN's Executive Director, Katie Mosman Wadler, jumping in to tell you about this week's episode of Meet and Three, Heritage Radio Network's weekly food roundup. This week we're introducing you to some amazing women taking a stand. So often being sexually harassed feels like a loss of control. And so I wanted to have these very tangible guides to say, here's what you can do.
+
+[1:09] Others are pushing for more diversity at major food industry events. I still feel really determined to do, you know, whatever I can to help shift that and in a direction that's not just more diverse, but more equitable. We also have a report on that summer business staple, the lemonade stand. The lemonade stand might be the purest form of starting a business. Low overhead, easy to get into, and requires little experience or special equipment.
+
+[1:34] Don't miss Meet and Three, your weekly 15-minute food news roundup from HRN. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast app. Search M-E-A-T plus sign T-H-R-E-E. And thanks, as always, for listening. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[2:03] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from Roughly 12 to Roughly 1245 for Pizza Roberta Pizzeria and Bushwick. Oh we got Dave in the booth. Hi. And we because it is we're back to take your kid to work life, we have special guest, Booker Arnold. No school today.
+
+[2:32] Yeah, yeah. Why no school today, Booker? My teachers have a conference. Oh, I wanted to tell you I now have a job at Nastasia's pasta shop called Pasta Flyer. Oh, we've been talking about that.
+
+[2:43] Oh, yeah. So you should call all of your by the way, Nastasi Lopez attempting to uh overtake McDonald's as America's best first job. You don't like McDonald's? I like them fine. Nastassi has nothing negative to say about any quick service recipe.
+
+[2:58] The McDonald's website says our commitment to quality, but my mom says, yeah, right. They're just trying to sell you their food. So if we're right, no, we're never gonna get that McDonald's sponsorship. Yeah, yeah, because uh Heritage Foods was really pushing for that. My brother also says there's pink slime in the nuggets.
+
+[3:19] Well, your dad probably has stuff to say about it. Uh specifically, McDonald's has like McDonald's has hired and made fake uh what do you Dave? What do you call fake uh like those fake advertorial, like fake news things? What do you call those things where the company pays for it? Do you you guys do those, right?
+
+[3:34] You know what I'm saying? Where like a company will come in and be like, hey, make it look like you're a news correspondent, but really we're just gonna push our crap. What's that called? When do people do that? I have no idea.
+
+[3:43] Is there a word for that? Yeah, there is. Anyway, so like McDonald's has one of those where like a theoretical neutral person is interviewing someone at the on the McNuggets line at Tyson. So Booker does nothing but watch. Oh, like as if they're doing uh Yeah, as if it's a news story.
+
+[3:59] Tyson is cruel to their livestock. Okay, Booker, so like Booker is as, you know, just so you guys know, like, as most, I think probably 16 year olds is extremely susceptible to internet who ha. Now I'm not pro-Tyson, but what does that word mean? Who? No, susceptible or whatever.
+
+[4:18] Family show. Yeah, it's talking about who has to be. It means uh it means that you are likely to believe things that you hear on the internet. Tyson punches and throws their chickens. Okay, that's not the case.
+
+[4:28] Why would they do that? Why would you punch a chicken? Why? They also suffocated one by standing on its head. Okay, listen, this is not I don't believe this to be accurate.
+
+[4:39] But I I mean like Booker, you don't believe the earth is flat, do you? Um, no, it's round. Thank you. Yeah, because the internet tells him so. But the uh Well, half of it.
+
+[4:48] Yeah. Well, no, my point is is that uh, like I am not, you know, I have a lot to say. The earth is not flat. Yeah, correct. I have a lot to say.
+
+[4:57] Hey, hey, hey. Yes. I used to think we lived inside the planet. Well, I mean, if you count the atmosphere. We may someday excluding the atmosphere.
+
+[5:06] Someday sooner than later. Yeah. Uh so anyways, my point I have a lot to say negative about um, you know, completely integrated uh chicken farming, but it's a more complicated subject, and I do not believe that. First of all, you know, Booker Tyson doesn't actually raise the chickens. Did you know that?
+
+[5:25] Tyson's Tyson has farmers who make very like almost nothing per bird, and they raise him. Tyson owns the bird, but they don't raise the bird. Tyson's supply. Okay. Anyway.
+
+[5:38] Where'd you get that shirt? Didn't we get it together? Yeah, I like that shirt. Uh P.S. No one can see his shirt because this is the internet.
+
+[5:45] This is a radio-based podcast. Yeah, but you know, radio is the most visual of all mediums. Yeah. Branded shirt, but it says Cortal U New York. Courtel you.
+
+[5:54] Yeah. Well, no, in my family, it is CortalU. Yes. Yeah, and Cortal U does not mean the famous surveyor who made the first real maps of New York City, nor does it mean the stop. On the Q train.
+
+[6:07] Yes, no, it doesn't mean that. It is a uh synonym for a cluster, cluster F. You know, I used it in a I I got caught. I used it in a in a very important meeting, and everyone was like, what? No, but the thing is the word does it really mean that?
+
+[6:22] No, no, it the Booker made this up. Like when he was. And everyone's like, everyone knows you mean cluster F. It's a little bit nicer. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:36] But I usually, I usually, when I'm using it in context in front of adults, will put the F beforehand. Oh, yeah. So that you cordal you. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:49] God damn Cordelieu. Like, go like, but I use it, but it's like no one has ever questioned the meaning because I got questions. What would they say? They were like, what did you say? And I said Cortal you, i.e.
+
+[7:00] cluster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? But it's like we gotta call her. We gotta call her, it looks like.
+
+[7:06] We have then we have two. Did uh do we have uh Jack and uh and Derek or no? Uh no, we just what? Hey, hey Derek, what's up? So waiting on number two.
+
+[7:16] Jack told me that she wanted to talk about the Thunder Nut. Alright, so I I as a test this morning uh said, you know, people can tweet in questions, and now I owe uh a person who's been you know listening for you know a long time whose uh Twitter hashtag or not hashtag Twitter handle is uh Blopins, right? Uh Ben. He uh he wants to know about the Thundernut. Now he has asked me this.
+
+[7:41] He in fact mailed me uh you know a couple of those flower beers from uh up uh you know Upper East Coast there to spin out in the spinzall to harvest the yeast, like the whole nine, and all this guy wants is the Thundernut specs. Now, for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, Thunder Nut is uh was a pistachio based rum beverage at uh Booker In Dax and it was a it was went on probably for the last what year? Yeah, R. I p right booker for the last year or so of the uh of of our run. Is that about right, Derek?
+
+[8:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. Now the issue is is you know, Booker and Dax had a bunch of Orja specs, and Booker Index had a bunch of other specs, but the bartenders didn't make the actual pistachio rum. It wasn't an orja, it was a pistachio rum plus um Jack Jack was what what was the what was the bar spectrum?
+
+[8:40] Oh hey, Jack. So Derek, now at PDT was uh bartender and also at one point bar back at Booker Index, and Jack was the uh head bartender at at Booker Index. We have the two best people to discuss what was actually in the Thunder Nut. Now, when I received the specs this morning on how the stuff was made, I was um upset because it was a crazy freaking spec. I mean, it's freaking bananas, like nutty, I can't believe we made that spec spec, if it's to be believed.
+
+[9:17] Now, here's the other thing. Derek has tried to recreate this for the spinzole because I'm assuming that no one out there who's making it has the what we used in practice at BDX, which was a three-liter bench top juan refrigerated centrifuge. So this is everything kind of in in thing there. So, Jack, first give the drink spec once you have the pistachio rum. Okay.
+
+[9:41] So the the single drink spec was one and a half ounces of pistachio rum, a half ounce of Amaro Montenegro, uh, three-quarters of an ounce of pineapple syrup. Tell them how to make okay, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, finish, finish, finish. Yeah. And uh scant three-quarters acid adjusted orange juice.
+
+[10:02] Okay. And five drops of salt. So what you have there is a basic Booker Index sour spec. It's a little off because the Montenegro has sugar in it, but you got yourself roughly, you got yourself a two, three-quarter, three quarter, right? Theoretically, if everything was booze and everything was working normally, you got yourself a two, three, what?
+
+[10:22] You got yourself a two, three-quarter, three quarter right there, right? So so far, hunky dory. Now, acid adjusted OJ, very simple. Every liter of orange juice gets uh 32 grams of citric acid and 20 grams of malic acid, stirred toll dissolved, and boom. That's that's what makes warhead candy sour.
+
+[10:42] Malic acid. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we could talk about warheads in a minute. Anyway, let's finish this one first, though.
+
+[10:44] So that's your acid OJ. Jack, what's our pineapple syrup syrup uh spec? We were low tech when making the pineapple syrup at Booker. It was just equal parts by weight, sugar and freshly juiced pineapple juice. That is a garbage spec.
+
+[11:02] That's too sweet. That's garbage spec. We're garbage people. We should be shot. Yes, I know.
+
+[11:06] We we added a small amount of uh citric acid. Citric acid to you. I think generally like I want to say it was like 10 to 15 milliliters of uh citric acid solution per pineapple. But we didn't adjust for the sugar that was in the pineapple juice? No, we used this was a mark set.
+
+[11:25] What? It was a McGuyan spec. Listen, in the future, I don't care who is working with us. I know about it. I want the stuff to be bricks right, not freaking taking something that has like 12 bricks already, like 11 or 12 bricks, and then adding another 50 bricks to it.
+
+[11:41] Well, this is becoming an episode of bar rescue. This is why everything in life is sucks. This is why everyone everywhere is garbage, because no one can keep their numbers and their stuff straight so that stuff swaps out. Nastasia, back me up on this. Booker, please stop touching the mic.
+
+[11:56] Nastasia, Nastasia backs me up 100% here, too. It's like if you're gonna work in a big team and your team has rules so this stuff can get swapped in from place to place, follow the rules. Yes? It's almost as if the rules changing when management continues to change in the space. No, but the rule's a rule.
+
+[12:23] It's like, look, human beings, we keep having new generations of human beings, and we keep on requiring oxygen. You know what I mean? It's like follow the rules. Yeah. Anyway, okay, so I have no idea.
+
+[12:35] So now the spec is even crazier to me because now all of a sudden it's a good bit sweeter than it was, but it's also a good bit more acidic. Because, first of all, the orange juice has sugar in it, because the orange juice is rocking at somewhere in the range of 10, right? 10 bricks or thereabouts, 11 maybe. We have pineapple, which is now clocking in roughly at 60 bricks, right? So right now we have a drink that's on the sweeter side, right?
+
+[13:04] The acid level is also a little higher than normal, and maybe this all washes out because it's gonna have a lot more texture when it's shaken because of the freaking pistachio, right? But now here, people is where it gets really ugly. Normally at Booker Index, we would make orjas for uh for nuts, but that would become the syrup. Notice from my uh loss of uh of mental stability a minute ago that we already have plenty more than enough sugar in this. So, how are we gonna get the nuts into the beverage?
+
+[13:39] And the answer is we're gonna put the nuts into the booze, which by the way, is why we had to charge so much and didn't make so much of this stuff because it was super expensive, even though Florida Canya, which is what we use, is an inexpensive rum. If you buy Florida Cagna, so slightly more expensive. What? Oh, we use the seven a little bit more, but still but still, like for an aged rum, it's on the so yeah, we use the seven. So before an aged rum, it's on the cheaper side, right?
+
+[14:06] Because here's what we're about to do. Now, Derek, how do you do this stuff? Uh so it's actually a three-day process, which again, I don't know if all this is necessary, but it's just the way it was done at the beginning. So it's the way we continue to do it. So the first step, first day, day one is you take 400 grams of pistachio, 650 grams of water.
+
+[14:30] So weigh it all out. Uh let that soak overnight uh in the refrigerator. Let me just add when you're using pistachios, please sort through them and remove the shriveled and or overly yellow or brown ones. They will ruin. Do not sample the pistachios.
+
+[14:47] There, they're maybe there, boys. You will die. Uh shut up. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so so go ahead.
+
+[14:55] Make sure you're make sure your pistachios are good. Soak them in water. Uh day two, take that mixture, blend it up. Um, it does get pretty thick. So um that mixture is per one bottle of Loracania.
+
+[15:10] Uh Jack, I think we were using 750 milliliter bottles. We're using 750s. Yeah. So here's where you've lost me entirely, Derek. You're taking how much water?
+
+[15:19] And you didn't drain the water. 600, no, 600 grams of water is going into that rum mixture. So yes, it's it's a little it's weird to me too, because you're adding the pistachio and the water. So the alcohol, the ABV on that whole pistachio rum is coming way, way down. It's in the it's it's in the low, low to mid-20s.
+
+[15:38] Yeah. Yeah. So that the thing that people didn't necessarily realize about that drink is that it's a pretty it's a low alcohol cocktail. All right. Alright, so I uh you know, you you're giving me heart palpitations here, Derek, but go ahead.
+
+[15:51] So you soak the nuts and you need to soak the nuts because you want the nuts to primarily absorb water and not booze because we can't afford to lose any more liquid, I mean any more alcohol. We also want to have the the kind of strongest extraction we're gonna get. So we want to soften these nuts up. So you blend the whole sucker together. Now here's where it gets even weirder.
+
+[16:10] You're blending in the ticloid before you spin. So uh I think it was after. So emulsify the cicloid, yeah, what would get added day three on the thing? So day two, you blend, you add the rum, uh, and then you since the rum is added in, you don't have to refrigerate it for that next overnight. So then the third day it's spun.
+
+[16:34] Uh add the ticaloid right before uh stir it up. Wait, you add the ticloid after you spin? Say that again. You add the ticloid after you spin, right? Because otherwise, what the hell are you doing, right?
+
+[16:45] You add the ticloid before you spin? Yeah, we uh the the spec that we had uh it would that we would add it before spinning. This is freaking bananas. Why? Look, maybe it works better.
+
+[16:56] And you say you did this in the spinzole. Uh yeah, so I recently did it with uh one of our Booker and Axe regulars. We tried it out because he he'd been wanting this back, and I recently got a stinzel. I wanted to try it out. And uh we didn't do the continuous, we just did it in batch mode.
+
+[17:14] We were a little nervous about all of the there's a lot of solid, a lot of the pistachio solids. We just did it in multiple batches. Uh cleaned out the rotor, and it seems to uh to work pretty well for us. Really? What kind of yield did you get?
+
+[17:30] Um I I didn't measure the yield. Uh he kind of finished off the last of the batch uh after after I had I had left. So I unfortunately I don't have the the yield. Well, I mean, like rough, rough, you know, rough. Like what kind of yield did you get?
+
+[17:46] I mean it it looked it looked pretty similar, very similar to uh the pucks that we had at uh and uh the spinning bucket centrifuge. All right. Everything the the taste consistency uh seemed to be very similar from to what I can remember doing uh a year or two ago. Yeah, so for those of you that don't have ticaloid powder, I forgot to call into the bar. In the copy of Liquid Intelligence that is at the bar, I have handwritten in the substitute for Tickoloid.
+
+[18:17] Because Ticoloid is just gum Arabic and Xanthan gum. And I forget Jack, you're not at the bar right now, are you? No, I'm not. I'll have to I'll have to get that back or I'll I'll on the next show if someone asks me, I'll get you a substitute. You know, ticaloids, some people have trouble getting tickaloid powder now, but it's just a mixture of gum Arabic and Xanthan.
+
+[18:36] The Xanthan is acting as the um uh you know, as the uh stabilizer, right? So there's emulsifiers, emulsifiers are like marriage counselors, they help oil and water live close to each other, and uh stabilizers are like traffic cops, they keep stuff from moving. So it's like it's both. The gum Arabic is the is the emulsifier is the marriage counselor, and the xanthan is the traffic cop. So that's how, you know, that's how it works.
+
+[19:02] But uh, you know, I have a mixture that I made of of you need to use the really good powdered gum arabic and try to get a fast dissolving xanthan gum. Uh but it's it's something like three quarters uh three quarters uh of it is uh is is uh Arabic and one quarter of it is Xanthan. It's something like that. And you have to use a little more of of that mix than you would have tickoloid, but don't give it a shot. But why the heck would you mix it beforehand, Derek?
+
+[19:28] To make it harder to settle out yeah I I just followed the spec that's probably not the best answer I should answer I should give um but yeah it it's it seems to work well it and you know it uh stabilized you could definitely tell when you didn't add uh it's gloid because it it would separate but I mean it's solved by just kind of shaking it up um you know before you pour out the ounce and a half into the cocktail. Yeah well I I know you need Ticaloid the question is do you add it before or after you spin that's the key. Now the other thing we yeah yeah we always added it before before we spun your uh your yeah okay uh shut it down this is a lot to process uh speaking of process how long did you have to spin it in a spinzall per batch uh we did a normal 15 minute spin. Okay. So when you're spinning in a spinzall with liquor that long make sure you have the the lid the you know the the inner rotor lid on and it's also keep the cap on the top and also I plug up the uh drain hole just so that you don't have uh too much evaporation out of the unit because especially because you've already gotten rid of so much alcohol you might want to keep the rest of it in there.
+
+[20:39] So uh it's a good if you like sweet creamy nut drinks it's a good session drink to have because it doesn't have that much alcohol in it. And uh I'm learning more about the old bar every day. Every day. This is a s this this example is particularly egregious. This is uh the nut rum ingredient just sort of appeared on the bar one day.
+
+[21:03] D came up with it, said, here, use this. And then one spec later, we had this incredible cocktail. It's like, all right, we're gonna make this the same way that you made this every time because this is delicious. So it's just like so happened. Yeah.
+
+[21:18] To have been made in an after exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well hey, look at it.
+
+[21:24] And I mean you can't you can't argue with the success of the drink. I mean people love that cocktail. I'm not as illustrated by this this guy's uh persistence in trying to get the spec for it. Yeah look I'm not like here's the thing right talking about it on the radio yeah I'm not yeah right I mean like I'm not like opposed to I mean I'm mentally here's the here's the real issue. Here's what really is kind of like you know burning me up right now is that you know I think it's always good if you're running tests that go outside of what you normally do, right?
+
+[21:57] And you get a good result, this is good. But if it's all black boxed and just oh here's a weird spec, nobody investigates it when by that I mean tells me to investigate it, right? Because you know yeah so like then I can't discover whether or not we need to revise the way we do every freaking thing or whether or not this just is a one off or boo boop or boob beep or boobop because I don't have the information. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[22:25] It's like this yeah it's like it's like the weirdest out there spec that at the bar. But maybe we could take that knowledge look everything we do right milk syrup, milk washing all this stuff is because we had some weird effect by doing it wrong or doing it weird and we investigated it but if it's just kept in a little cloistered box and you can't investigate it, this same thing happens, like, like for any of you that are gonna run a program or going to start a program out there. Like the worst is when you like do development and it's like a multi. I love multi-person team-based efforts because I think the results are better and everyone gets buy-in. But then when stuff gets changed, you've got to remember to send information up and down the chain so that everybody knows what's going on.
+
+[23:10] Otherwise, you know, like we were in a situation situation where you try to recreate a spec based on my knowledge of the chain, which is clearly deficient, then we're never gonna get the result because I would never do it that way unless I knew it was done that way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, whatever.
+
+[23:28] Whatever. You can't argue with people liking the drink, as Dave uh Dave in the booth says, but I mean I wasn't the one who said that. Oh, who is Derek said that? Yeah, that was me. Anyway, all right.
+
+[23:40] All right. Do you want to take a break and cool off, Dave? Or what do you think? Yeah, I'll cool down. Thanks, guys.
+
+[23:44] Thanks for calling in. I'll be right back. More cooking issues. I'll see you at the bar. Think about what it takes to swim a coastline longer than the entire eastern seaboard and leap tall waterfalls in a single bound.
+
+[24:06] What does it take to survive 200 feet deep in icy salt water? What would you be made of? Wild Alaska seafood is made of tight muscle mass, long-chain omega-3s, and incredible micronutrients. It matters where your food comes from. Experience the flavor of the fittest in every bite and enjoy food the way nature intended.
+
+[24:30] Alaska Seafood. Wild, natural, and sustainable. Ask for Alaska on the menu, grocery store, or smart device. For more information, visit Wild Alaska Seafood.com. And we are back.
+
+[24:51] So Booker, did you uh absorb anything? The microphone's pointed in the wrong direction, P.S. You don't have your earphones on. So yeah, Booker's uh Booker's really taking this seriously. Yeah.
+
+[25:03] How you doing, Books? Good. Yeah. Yeah. What?
+
+[25:08] I wished I could stay in bed for longer because like it's off school. Sometimes you have to wake up. Um, well, I my I I was woken up to walk the dogs. Uh-huh. Yeah.
+
+[25:20] Well, want dogs, gotta walk them. Uh, I mean, that's just the way it works. You know what I'm saying? Uh all right. Patrick O'Sullivan uh wrote in and said, uh, would like your thoughts on a seltzer system with a corny keg in a fridge as a cold reservoir of still water, then plumb to a mechan or similar carbonator for on demand.
+
+[25:42] And this is what he wrote. Keg would always have flesh water coming in. And then he corrects and he goes, in the next one, he's like, that is to say, fresh water. Flesh water would not be good. Although now I have this twisted flesh water.
+
+[25:57] Well, now you gotta think about that. Would it be good? So flesh water is what happens like when you're like uh like those who rinse chicken, that like that kind of like with that scum on the top, or flesh water is when you're in a not uh properly cleaned public pool and there's that like skim of human fat on the top of it when those hot indoor pools. You know what I'm talking about, Sadger? I don't do public pools.
+
+[26:19] Nastasia will not get in a public pool specifically because she does not enjoy the flesh water. Well, now I'm having second thoughts. Hey man. Uh, you know, that that's not soap in the hot tub. That's human oil.
+
+[26:31] Yeah, I know. Yeah, all right. Anyways. So back to the back off of the gross stuff and on to onto the question. So basically, what uh Patrick wants to do is he wants does not want to do a cold plate with ice, which is you know what I typically do.
+
+[26:47] Would rather have a corny keg. So corny kegs are Cornelius kegs. They used to use them for uh, they use them for homebrew now. They used to use them for soda, and some people use them for uh kegged cocktails and whatnot, but they're relatively cheap, relatively available. They hold the standard one holds five gallons, right?
+
+[27:04] Everyone, five gallons. Then you need a carbonator, right? The problem here is is that in a standard commercial carbonation system, like we have at the bar. By the way, the new bars carbonation system, pretty good, right, Stas? You didn't eat, I gave you water.
+
+[27:19] Terrible person. You are you uh anyway. You are mean to me. You are mean to me. That's when Nastasia calls me on the phone, it says, You are mean to me, you are mean to me.
+
+[27:30] And of course, you know, because uh someone uh one of our listeners made me a ringtone when Booker calls me, it says, Shut up, Dad. Hey Booker, can you give him another live shut up, Dad? No. What? Come on, Booker.
+
+[27:42] Lean in. Think about how shut up, Dad! Yeah, yeah, nice. I'm isolating that. Yeah.
+
+[27:49] Uh so yeah, I love it. You know what I mean? What'd you have to think about before you said that? Well, I I had to think I had to try to copy the voice. It's because he was saying annoying stuff.
+
+[28:01] What was he saying? Um, I don't know, Dad. What could you have been saying? What couldn't he have been saying? Booker is annoyed by pretty much everything I say, so that's why his ringtone like is is shut up, Dad.
+
+[28:12] He booker also like will occasionally Booker has kind of stock responses to certain things. So if you apply the brakes or turn too hard in the car, he used to have a very specific Do do not get to this, please. All right, but he changed his specific reaction, and so it he, you know, it's interesting. He's got you know what is the reaction? He doesn't want to talk about it.
+
+[28:34] He doesn't want to talk about it. That's why I don't like cars. It's what makes the Subaru a lemon. Yeah, he doesn't like our Subaru, but like anyway. The other thing is, oh Nastasi, do you like that story about Booker with the amulet?
+
+[28:47] Well, we don't have it we'll get it. Let's finish your time. Yeah, lady's like, you're never gonna see me again. This is a nice gift. Booker's like, takes it, looks at her, she goes, Buddhist, and lay and leaves.
+
+[28:59] Leaves the subway. Where is it in a special place? Yes. He's not gonna tell you where it is. Doesn't want you to go steal his endless.
+
+[29:10] I don't know. I don't think he looked it up. But he does it, you know, Booker, when he's in the subway, has a zen look. He's got that kind of like far-off zen look in his eye. Anyway, okay, so we're back to this.
+
+[29:19] So a corny keg holds about five gallons. It has a um a gas in port, which is at the top, and then it has a liquid out port, which is at the bottom of a long tube. So you can feed stuff into the top and you remove stuff from the bottom. In a commercial carbonation system, you have a carbonator. The carbonator has uh is plumbed with filtered water straight from the supply at roughly 45 to 65 psi.
+
+[29:49] You then it's at room temperature. You then have your CO2 tank plumbed onto it at like a like I do. The reason my the sparkling water is so ripping where I am is because I do it at 110 psi and then feed it through, and so that's at room temperature. It needs to be that high because you're doing it at room temperature. It then comes out of the carbonator as carbonated water, goes, and by the way, if you ever set up a commercial carbonator, and I'll tell you this, uh Patrick, no matter how you do it, no one tells you how to properly set up a carbonator, right?
+
+[30:20] Nobody tells you how to properly set up a carbonator. Even the McCann people, the people who make it, do not tell you how to properly set it up. Here I will tell you all now. Here is how you properly set up a carbonator. You fill it with cold water, turn off your gas, no gas.
+
+[30:36] Fill it with carbon with uh cold, regular cold filtered water. There is a uh a vent valve on the top of it that's a flip valve, right? An overpressure and release valve. Open that, flow it until it comes out of that, then close it, open up your taps, run it until just with just with plain water, no gas. Run it until your taps run full of water, then burp that vent valve a couple times.
+
+[30:59] Now you have gotten rid of all of the air in your system because I want you to mentally repeat air is the enemy of carbonation. Air is the enemy of carbonation. So now you have all the air out of the system. Now, here's the important part. Unplug your carbonator and or disconnect the uh the float switch on it.
+
+[31:19] Unplug it. I don't want any more water coming into it, right? You can leave the water on, but unplug it. Now turn your uh your gas on, turn the gas on, right? Turn it up to whatever you want.
+
+[31:31] Now, open up your valve and bleed all of the water out, all of it, until it sputters, and then stop. Now your system is 100% full of carbon dioxide. 100% full. All right? Now, uh, then you just plug it back in and the pump will turn on and inject water into your carbonator, and that stuff will be fully carbonated.
+
+[31:54] If you're carbonating at room temperature, I do. You can't really go over about 120. It's it's not, you can't. But I do it about 110, which is super ripping. Most people are gonna be down closer to 100 psi, right?
+
+[32:06] Then after that, it comes up out of the carbonator and goes into a cold plate. Now, most jerks who hate quality, don't appreciate their customers or their own dignity, only pass it through one channel of a cold plate. A cold plate is just a bunch of stainless steel tubing. By the way, make sure you never have any copper after the carbonation setup. No copper at all.
+
+[32:27] They have nickel plated brass, works, stainless works, never copper, never. Uh, and also I had to buy tube. I bought tube uh for the bar. How do you say tube? Turb turb.
+
+[32:39] I bought tube from uh a reputable supplier. I will not mention their name because I'm so freaking angry with them, and they recommended I buy vinyl tube. They recommended I buy vinyl tube that was braid reinforced. Why? Because they said it was more flexible, right?
+
+[32:55] And I said to myself, you know what, Dave? Your whole life, you know, decades, you've used uh braid reinforced polyethylene tubing, polyethylene tubing with EVA jacket, right? First of all, the hose has never failed, never failed, never failed. Secondly, it has never, ever, ever, ever imparted an off taste to any liquid I have ever put through it, ever, right? Because polyethylene doesn't have all those nasty plasticizers that vinyl does, right?
+
+[33:28] So this guy swears on a freaking stack of Bibles. I don't know why the hell I listened, but he swore on a stack of freaking Bibles that this vinyl tube, everyone's using this vinyl tube now, and that it's not going to impart any taste to the water. And so I plumbed it, and sure as shooting, the water tasted like death plastic. And we would have to run the water for like 30 seconds at a time. And you could see it foam and get nasty, right?
+
+[33:54] As it was getting the plastic uh stuff out. Did you taste that, Saz when you came over? Garbage. I was so angry because I was, you know, Jack and I were on our backs underneath our stations, like trying to like fit into these cold plates, which were way the heck underneath our stuff. And I was I was hype, I was displeased.
+
+[34:14] I was displeased. And we ripped it all out, wasted another day, ripped it all out, and replaced it all with the stuff that God wants you to use, which is polyethylene tube, braid reinforced with an EVA jacket, and our water tastes great now. I do use and do recommend the vinyl, the braid reinforced uh vinyl, you know, food grade vinyl tubing for gas lines because it is more flexible and will allow you to do things like carbonate and shake better. Okay, so back. So remember, most people run through one thing of a of uh a cold plate.
+
+[34:46] So you're coming from your tube, which please use uh polyethylene with braid reinforcement and EVA jacket. Please use that type of uh tube for your liquid. Now, uh, I'm sure, you know, he was like a lot of people when they're running beer and soda, they can't taste it. I don't care. Just use the good stuff.
+
+[35:03] So uh you're running it through, most people run it through one circuit of a cold plate, which is just a length of aluminum tube, uh, sorry, a length of stainless steel tube that is embedded typically in an aluminum block. You have ice on that. As the ice melts, it very rapidly heats the aluminum, uh, cools the aluminum block and gets your water down because the water's going through a quarter inch kind of a tube, so it has you know a lot of surface area for its volume and it chills very rapidly, not rapidly enough. Put it through two. So you're feeding into one, you take the out of that circuit, put it into the in of another, and then out of two.
+
+[35:36] And that is the way to get good seltzer. You also have to get a good seltzer uh dispensing gun. I use only Cornelius and Becker post-mix soda valves. Post-mix soda valves, right? Not those nasty, like Wonder Bar guns, not beer guns, they're different, they have a different compensator, it's not the same, it's not as good.
+
+[35:57] All right, now back to what you're having here. You want to put a Cornelius keg in your fridge, right? Plumb your water supply into the Cornelius keg into the top, into the gas port. You then want to have uh draw water out of the bottom through the product port and have it go into your carbonator. Your carbonator must also live in this fridge that you're using to chill your stuff because uh it needs to stay cold.
+
+[36:22] If it doesn't stay cold, you're not gonna have a good result. Now, your pressure on this is gonna have to be uh lower, like 45 psi, 40 to 45 psi in that range. I have never run a carbonator where the gas pressure was below the input the inlet pressure of uh the city mains. So if you're flowing from uh your city water through a filter into the corny keg in the fridge, you might have to put a regulator on it to dumb your pressure down to below the pressure of uh your gas. I don't know, you might have to run some tests, but here's the main problem you're gonna have.
+
+[37:01] One, I don't know whether the carbonator is going to enjoy being in the fridge for long periods of time because of condensation. I have done it before, uh, but you know, your results may vary, I can't guarantee because it you might get moist on the inside of the thing. The other problem that you're gonna have is this. Let's say you have a five-gallon Cornelius keg and it's totally full with 640 uh ounces of water. Let's say you leave that water in there long enough to get down to four degrees uh centigrade.
+
+[37:30] Okay. Every 32 ounces you draw uh out of that is gonna replace uh about 32 ounces of the water in the corny keg with uh water that's at room temperature, roughly 25 degrees Celsius. 25 degrees Celsius, th a 32 ounce draw of 25 uh degrees Celsius water into the corny keg will raise the temperature of the whole keg one degree. So if you're at four if you're at four degrees and you draw 32 ounces, you now have a five degree keg. Uh if you this is at these numbers.
+
+[38:02] I mean as the temperature varies widely, so so will these numbers. But then when you draw another 32, now you're at a six degree keg, okay? Uh and so you have to make sure that if you're drawing more than like a liter an hour, that your fridge is adequate enough to keep the temperature down, or you're gonna get creep, creep, creep, creepity creep, creep, creep up in temperature. One way to get around this would be to instead of plumbing it to your city is to have a valve and to push like 20 PSI of CO2 into the top, let the whole thing cool down five gallons, and then just refill the whole thing, wait for the whole thing to come back down to temperature and do it again. So if you're only drinking like a gallon a day of seltzer, like once a week, you could vent you could if you only have 20 PSI on the tank, you could just throw ice and water in and then have that thing rock for the rest of the time.
+
+[38:53] And that's maybe the way I would do it if you start to see that uh your water's getting too cold as it comes out, too warm as it comes out. Does that make any sense at all in the stats? I don't really care. I don't care. And also, like if you ever want to send Dave an email and want him to read it, just write subject carbonation question.
+
+[39:08] That is not even the case. That is not that is 100%. That is not true. Not true. Um that was fun.
+
+[39:19] Yeah. Well, look, do people want the real freaking answer? I think that's a good idea. Like, are we a niche freakish show or not? This is a real freaking answer.
+
+[39:26] Everything about carbonation on a website that's called like carbonation by Dave Arnold.com. And like every single who's gonna who's gonna write it? You? Well, you could just transcribe everything. Any carbonation question that has ever been asked should be transcribed and put on that page with links to the things.
+
+[39:44] Links to the diatribes? No, links to the equipment that they need to buy. But who's gonna do that? I mean, who's literally who would do that? If we had a competent uh intern.
+
+[39:55] Booker you up for it. Up for what? Wow, he's just you're just harshing on uh everyone now. It's harshing on everyone. All right.
+
+[40:01] Uh hey Dave and the gang. This is from uh PH tenant. Okay. Uh love the show. I'm planning on devising an extracurricular for school.
+
+[40:07] I want to get these questions from. I said tweet your questions in or call them. Oh. Did you see the other ones? Text?
+
+[40:15] Uh, the ones Matthew sent. No, I didn't get a chance to look at them because I was looking at my Twitter feed. Is if there's one that's important, take a look. Alright, we'll do it next week. Uh I was planning on devising an extracurricular for school.
+
+[40:25] I want, you know, kids, Booker, do you like extracurricular activities? Like what? I don't know. What's your favorite extracurricular activity? No, yeah, standing at home is his favorite one.
+
+[40:29] Like, like uh right. Like something you do outside of school. Do you like do you is there anything that you like to do? Taking the subway. Okay, other than that, because that's a fun thing.
+
+[40:42] Is there anything else working? Okay. Oh, nice. Yeah, all right. Nastasia, uh, Booker might be the only person in the world who thinks you're a good boss.
+
+[40:51] Uh I got some insight into Nastasia's management strategy earlier. Why did Tyree quit pasta flyer? You can't talk about individual people's issues on the air. So, what was the insight into the management style, Dave? Uh I can't really say on air.
+
+[41:05] You can't talk about people's individual issues. I'm thinking about how Tyree quit. Okay. Okay, this is you shouldn't talk about that because he has his own life and we don't want to get sued, Booker, okay. Why he quit is his own business.
+
+[41:17] Uh okay. I want to teach kids 10 to 19 years old a little more about cooking, basics or more advanced stuff, whatever's fun, engaging, and beneficial. Do you have any ideas for a syllabus, syllabus, syllabus syllabus? Uh love from Germany, Lucas. Well, that's why he likes extracurricular.
+
+[41:34] That's why what? He likes extracurricular stuff. Uh well, yeah, we Americans like it because now if you apply to college these days, if you don't have extracurriculars, you can't get in at all. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:43] It's like, you know, if you haven't cured cancer, by the time you're 18, you can't, you know. Yeah. You're you're SOL, as we say. Uh if you come from a good family, you're okay. Well there's a lot, no, but the thing is like there's so many people from like everywhere that like I mean it's just like the the numbers on like uh stuff like the Ivies, it's just it's just stupid.
+
+[42:04] I don't even understand it. This is crazy. That's what I'm saying. You gotta have like the inside track to get into an I think that uh that doesn't always work. I don't even know if that yeah, I don't even know if that would work.
+
+[42:11] Although I don't I don't know, what the heck. This is not like it's not college issues. Although I did just go to my uh I haven't talked since I went to my reunion. Does that have any interesting food stories? I don't have time.
+
+[42:20] Anyway, we're talking about extracurriculars and food. Um Heston Blumenthal, uh, I don't know, like maybe 10, 12 years ago, did a um a kitchen science series for uh like uh secondary schools in England that you can probably get a hand on uh uh get a hand on that manual uh where it sets up a lot of interesting um it sets up a lot of interesting uh experiments for uh teaching uh teaching observation and scientific method through cooking. I happen to think that a lot of what they said is wrong in terms of like the conclusions they drew from their experiments, but uh in general, I am a rather curmudgeonly hard to get along with individual, and so I tend to say I tend to disagree with almost everything that almost everybody does, including myself. So I would take a look at uh Heston Blumenthal's kitchen science um syllabus. But that's not a syllabus for kids, although thanks for the plug, Stas.
+
+[43:21] But oh by the way, yesterday wait, wait, wait, so uh also look at what Harvard does, because even though uh what Harvard does is aimed at college uh kids, um they do some interesting experiments and they have open courseware uh online. Are you doing that again this year? I am doing that again this year, but we're not doing the first one, we're doing the second lecture this year. Uh which I don't even know what that means. But um, yeah, and I, you know, anyone on the chat room, and I'll I can think more about what would be a good uh a good set of things.
+
+[43:53] Cause you know, I like when I do it, I do more demos for kids, and so usually with if it's gonna be an extracurricular, you want to do more hands-on. Uh, and then the question is you are you're teaching more the science of it, which is what I've normally had to do, or are you teaching more just like the basics of cooking? If you're teaching the basics of cooking, um, you know, I would also look at you know, kind of what places like the FCI, now the ICC does in their kind of law techniques class. It's kind of like the basic core competency of what they're of what you need to teach people to cook because I think they did a good job and they've been doing it for like decades and decades. But these are all, you know, kind of curricula that you can look at uh online and get a handle on what you think.
+
+[44:31] What? All right, they're cutting me off, skip. So uh yesterday I sh uh I was on uh taped me for an episode of the burger show, Chef Alvin. So we I had to do the science of burgers, uh, which you know I may or may not disagree with. I had to baby, we'll talk about it later.
+
+[44:47] We'll talk about it later. If you want to know about the science of burgers and what we talked about on uh I can't really reveal too much because the episode's not available yet, but hit us back, we'll talk more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[45:19] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[45:50] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed in their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code COOKING25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking, and then the number two and the number five for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:24] I'm HRN, Communications Director Kat Johnson, with a preview of this week's episode of Meet in Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup. This week we're focusing on water. You'll hear some disturbing news from an NYC investigative reporter. Here lies the problem. How much we don't know about water tanks.
+
+[0:44] Katie Kiefer reports on water woes in the Heartland. Their water is heavily polluted with nitrates, which are coming from agricultural chemical applications on fields and running off into their water table. And we'll check in with Dave Arnold, who's about to open a new bar that will serve some pretty fancy H2O. It is hardcore. So pour up a tall glass of ice water and be refreshed by this week's episode of Meet and Three.
+
+[1:08] Available on Heritage Radio Network.org, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? Uh, we do not have Dave in the booth today because Dave is moving from Ditma's Park, Ditma's Park to Sunset.
+
+[1:47] Sunset? Anyway. No, no, no, no. I live in Sunset Park. He's moving to Ridgewood.
+
+[1:51] He's coming closer, remember? Ridgewood, Ridgewood, Ridgewood. Ridgewood, home of the Ridgewood Pork Store that I've not been to, but I hear I need to go to, where they they have whole, they do whole heads of cabbage as a sauerkraut. You buy the whole head of cabbage. Cool.
+
+[2:06] It's apparently it's like super hardcore old school like uh white enamel and oak place. And everyone's like, You've never been to the Ridgewood pork store? And I'm like, no, I've never been. And they're like, why? And I'm like, well, I don't know.
+
+[2:19] I'm stupid. That's why. I need to go. Maybe uh, although you think if I go there and I see Dave on the street, he'll pretend he doesn't know who I am? Probably.
+
+[2:27] Yeah? Yes. Yeah. So instead of Dave, we have uh Matthew in the in the booth. Matthew, is this your first time doing uh the cooking issues?
+
+[2:37] Uh I think I sat in once during training. It was a formative experience. Ah, yeah. So uh what's uh so just so I can get a feel, uh what uh, you know, what did you eat anything interesting in this last week? Uh yesterday I did um yesterday I did one of these things where I look up a recipe and then uh like retain 10% of the information and just go for it.
+
+[2:59] So it was a Portuguese hake recipe, hake, like the fish? Oh yeah, yeah. Um a little bit of cornmeal, fried it. Did this uh salsa that was like tomatoes, uh Mexican hatch chili or New Mexican hatch chili, uh olives, some other good stuff. It was it was good.
+
+[3:15] Are you from New Mexico or are you just a like a hatch come lately fan? Uh hatch come lately, although I mean it's been a little while. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, but I mean like when I was a kid, everyone was like, you gotta eat hatch, hatch. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:27] And then like it became a thing, what, like six years ago or something like that? Hatch became a thing, something like this? I think the New Mexico people are pissed off. Now the New Mexico people have other chilies that they can try to be like out chili you with if you're not a hatch guy. So again, when you did the cornmeal, you did a a cornmeal breading.
+
+[3:42] Did you do a pre-dust? Uh what do you mean by pre-dust? I I basically slapped the fish. It was it was pretty half-assed as far as breading goes. I slapped the fish onto a plate of cornmeal on both sides.
+
+[3:53] No salt? Whacked it. Uh dusted the salt on in while it was in the pan, because I was, you know, I was kind of just shooting from the hip here. Yeah. I recommend in the future that you do your salt pepper on the naked fish before you slap it onto the cornmeal.
+
+[4:07] Oh, this is why we're here today. Yeah. So you were doing, so you did a straight straight into the cornmeal on a on a plate. Did it make an unholy mess or were you okay? Uh the the that process?
+
+[4:18] No, I was good. I was good. And you used uh a like a finer, a finer grind of cornmeal or more of a coarse ground cornmeal. I it was cornmeal, so I used to work at a distillery. It was cornmeal that I took off of our meal.
+
+[4:29] It was like extra cornmeal from our mill. So I think it was pretty coarse. It was pretty coarse, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I would sometimes I would cut in some finer stuff too, just to you know, increase increase your adhesion there.
+
+[4:40] This this cornmeal was free, which was mighty fine. Free is the best, free is the best kind of cornmeal. And then what did you uh what did what kind of uh fat did you fry it in? Uh butter. Okay, butter and corn do love each other quite a bit.
+
+[4:52] Now uh was it greasy or was it good? No, it was great. I don't know. No, it's great. And how long did it sit around?
+
+[4:59] Did you like what what's interesting to me about cornmeal crust? There's various various schools of thought on cornmeal crust. I like cornmeal crust, but cornmeal crust, um there's a big argument when people are frying, because people have different kinds of taste, right? Whether you like your crust, there's a difference to me between crisp and hard, right? And so cornmeal ends up, I think, being a lot of times hard on the outside.
+
+[5:24] So it's crunchy, but it's crunchy in a kind of very hard way, it has a very specific kind of break to it when you go when you go through it which I like but it's different from like a shatteringly crisp crust do you agree with me? Uh yeah sure I'll go with that. Yeah. Nastasia you like a corn uh cornmeal crust? Yeah.
+
+[5:43] Do you like uh fried polenta sticks? Mm-hmm. I love a fried planta stick. You know what I did the other day? Uh remember when I went to Charleston?
+
+[5:50] Yeah. Uh I got some of these like super fancy, I think they're called Geechee Boy grits, like Jimmy Red corn grits. They're real good grits, very high quality grits. And I cooked the grits and of course I cooked them for dinner, you know, as one I did it in the rice cooker, put a bunch of like put a bunch of butter in and salt, right? You know what I mean?
+
+[6:07] Cooked it. I cooked it fast, Matthew, don't get mad. Have you ever seen my cousin Vinny Matthew? I have. Yeah.
+
+[6:13] You know how the whole thing turns around the whole the whole plot turns around. Okay, you can't you're what you're gonna have like a spoiler alert request for a movie that's older than me. That's pretty that's fair. So I will go ahead. So the whole plot revolves around how long it takes to cook grits.
+
+[6:29] Right? The whole thing is this northern guy Joe Pesci like somehow it soaks into his head because I I think because anyway I don't remember exactly but it the whole plot hinges on that you can't kind of rush grits. But turns out you you can rush grits in a in a in a rice cooker on on fast because it can boil off the water very fast without scorching it. You see what I'm saying? So you just you know open up the rice cooker every once in a while turn it anyway grits were delicious but because my kids are low quality individuals they did not finish all the grits I had grits left over and you know what I did with those grits?
+
+[7:01] I blended them into pancakes, the cooked grits and plans cake. You ever blend cooked rice into a pancake when you have it? Cooked in so I have it sitting around. It's gonna go to waste because my kids also aren't. I know, I know I I don't want to hear anything about it.
+
+[7:12] They're not huge fried rice people. So like I try to make them the fried rice once a while and they're like, nah, right? And then like I figured if I just made kind of like fried like grit cakes, they wouldn't do it. But in the pancakes, what's amazing about it is it still retains the pancake was had that gooey grits. Do you like grits by the way, Nastasia?
+
+[7:31] No, not really. Matthew, you grits? I love grits. There we go. Uh so it retains some of that kind of gooey grit texture.
+
+[7:37] It was halfway in between a pancake and a grit. It was kind of cool. Grit pancakes. That sounds great. What?
+
+[7:43] It was good. I will make it again sometime. Uh how the heck did we get on grits? Oh, we were talking about cornmeal. All right.
+
+[7:50] So uh Nastasia, do you eat anything interesting uh this past week? Nope. Nothing? Nothing. You ate nothing interesting this past week.
+
+[7:56] Nothing interesting. And you call yourself a food professional. You own a restaurant and you ate nothing interesting last week. No, I did not. Just feeding the body.
+
+[8:04] Literally, yes, just feeding the body. Just feeding the body. All right. Well, we have another week of me not being open with the bar. Very super depressing.
+
+[8:12] But uh we have been doing a lot of presentations. I have an interesting thing I built for the bar. I finally built uh a working glycol system. I went through three or four different systems. See, at Booker and Dax, when we were chilling our drinks, we would we were using these refrigerators, but the problem is is it was hard because we only had the one refrigerator because it had to keep it at a very low temperature because anyone Nastasi doesn't want me to talk about carbonation, but the stuff has to be really cold.
+
+[8:34] So I built, I called Philip Preston from Polyscience and bought like a big glycol chiller. And if anyone's interested at some point, I can tell you how this rig works, but it's super sweet. Every bar station now has a you ever do you ever go to wine stores when you were a kid, Nastasia? No. You never went to a wine store when you're a kid?
+
+[8:51] No, never. Never once. You're freaking lies. I swear. Nastassi has lied more to me in the past 20 minutes.
+
+[8:58] I never went to a wine store when I was little. Yeah, it was fun to go with my dad. No. There you go. A human being.
+
+[8:59] Thank goodness. So like they used to have these, like, and I think some places still have it. They have this weird, like circular thing with like kind of a blue liquid. And when you when you buy white wine, you throw it into the chiller while you're shopping, and then like honestly, like five minutes later, the sucker's chilled, so you can like drink it right away. So we ha every bar station has the equivalent of that for uh carbonated or any other cocktails.
+
+[9:28] It's pretty sweet. Cool. I'm excited. You're just being a jerk. You know what, Nastasia?
+
+[9:33] I work real hard because you wouldn't even think. What do you think? What do you think is the problem with it? Yeah, okay. Why do you think it's a difficult problem?
+
+[9:39] You don't. But it is a good idea. It's a difficult problem because you're dealing with a bunch of different bottles, some of which are full and some of which aren't, and you don't want to add enough weight to the bottles such that they sink even when they're empty. So it becomes an issue of how to keep all the bottles properly corral without them rattling around your bar in the minimum amount of space. It is an interesting technical problem, and I think I have solved it.
+
+[10:00] In fact, I would like to convince Philip Preston to make some self-contained ones. Maybe we can if we ever open this bar, and then if we ever open more of them, I can you know roll that out, or maybe you know, have them sell it to other people. Did you hear the International House of Pancake change the name of their restaurant? But why? Because they're stupid.
+
+[10:16] But the bees were what? Burgers. But they're it's a different type of restaurant? I think they just ripped the pee off of their thing or flipped the pee upside down. Now it's iHob.
+
+[10:29] I'm gonna call it iHub. Have you I've never I haven't been to an IHOP in like 20 years. But like every other burger change, just like ripped them new one. Were you you ever go to the uh house of pancakes? Yeah, when I was little, but not recently.
+
+[10:41] No. Do you like pancakes for dinner? No. I like it, but I haven't done it since the kids because we make pancakes on the weekend. But I used to like uh I used to like a a breakfast for uh dinner sitch.
+
+[10:51] You don't you hate that? I used to like it. What about you, Matthew? Are you a breakfast for dinner person ever? I'm more of a dinner for breakfast person.
+
+[10:57] Dinner for breakfast? I like that. Like what? Like steak and eggs, or like what do you mean? I don't uh I just eat all sorts of foods that are not breakfast foods at breakfast time sometimes.
+
+[11:07] Because you got I get in a rut. I get in an egg rut. I don't want to do it anymore. Egg rut. That sounds like a band.
+
+[11:13] Egg rut. Maybe it's an album. It's more of an album. Egg rut. That was during their egg rut years.
+
+[11:19] Egg rut years. Was that good or bad? The egg rut years. Uh so some uh sad news before we by the way, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[11:34] Uh so last last week, uh John Lermer died. Uh, you know, very well-known bartender in um in Florida. Uh he was younger than me, he's 45, well known, sweet, uh, smart, sensitive guy. Uh and you know, I think it's gonna be something we're gonna I know that Don and I, when we're opening the bar are talking m you know, more about this. I was talking to Jim Meehan yesterday of PDT.
+
+[11:59] I think everyone in this industry has to just help each other be a little bit um be a little bit better to themselves because anyone who's gonna stay in it a long time, uh, you know, you don't want to end up, you know, dying because of your lifestyle uh well before well before you should. Um I mean, it's obviously been a tough week with uh Bourdain and all that for for a lot of people, but anyway, I just wanted to say our thoughts are with uh the friends and family of John Lermer. Um I should have said that first, or maybe last. Because now what am I gonna say? Yeah, you can't really come in to anyway.
+
+[12:39] He was the for a while he was the rep for Krug Champagne. What's the what's uh what's some interesting facts from Krug Champagne, Nastasia? I don't know. Uh Krug Champagne, one of the few champagnes that most of the time does not go through malolactic fermentation. This is why Krug Champagne tends to have an Applee note because it still has uh a good bit of malic acid in it.
+
+[12:59] You like Krug, right? I love it. You like any kind of champagne? I really like Krug. Yeah?
+
+[13:05] All right. Nastasia Lopez, uh, even though she's going to come and drink free at my new bar, existing conditions. But only not the cocktail. We'll never drink a cocktail. If you want to have a terrible friend, become friends with Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[13:22] Because Nastasia Lopez, not only will she not support what you do for a living, but she will come in and for free drink the stuff that you're paying more for and rub it in your face and anybody else's face, that she doesn't want what you have worked hard to try to achieve. She instead just wants a giant fish bowl of sparkling wine. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
+
+[13:46] That that is uh that is Nastasia. Uh okay. So uh you want some crazy? Yeah. Before we get to the question, do you want some crazy?
+
+[13:55] So this is actually, this seems like one of the things that I probably has nothing to do with our show, but I have never seen anything on the internet that had more to do with our show than this. Okay. So this is via Twitter. I got uh, you know, someone sent me this on Twitter today, Brian Pittman, and uh it is to a Vice story about, and I I have to say, I don't think there's a good possibility that this is a a hoax. Okay.
+
+[14:24] A very strong possibility. Don't care, just go to it. Okay, someone was interviewed on Vice who cooked his own foot and served it to his buddies. Did they know? Yes.
+
+[14:37] Okay. So this is amazing. Check this out. Guy got, so apparently uh his uh handle, he's an he's anonymous, but his handle because it came to people's uh attention via a Reddit thing. Shiny.
+
+[14:48] We'll call him Shiny because we don't know his real name. Was in a motorcycle accident. Uh-huh. This is like our thing. I'm saying, yeah, was in a motorcycle accident, his like leg and foot were shattered.
+
+[15:00] He's in the hospital, and the doctors are like, We're gonna amputate your foot. And literally, shiny says, Well, can I keep it? Literally, it's on his back, well, can I keep it? And they're like, Well, it's your foot. You know what I mean?
+
+[15:17] And so they gave it to him in a bag. He originally thinks, I swear to God, this is what it says on the thing. He originally says to himself, Well, maybe I'll get it freeze-dried, and I'll have my foot freeze-dried, right? Looks it up, takes it home, washes it off, puts it in the freezer, looks it up, freeze-drying costs too much money. Yeah.
+
+[15:39] So he doesn't know what he's gonna do, so he's like, Well, maybe I'll make a plaster cast of it. He says that like he and his buddies were tossing it around the room, like his foot, because it's like he says it's I mean, I imagine it is surreal to have your foot just sitting there. And before he takes the plaster cast, he cuts off a piece of it, puts it again in the freezer, and saves it, and then decides weeks later that he is going to cook it, right? Now, this is the smartest thing. I mean, I don't really necessarily agree with the way that it was done, but this is the smartest thing I've ever heard.
+
+[16:11] He's like, I don't want to mess this up. Finds a chef friend of his. By the way, kudos to Shiny for finding a chef friend. Finds a chef friend who's going to prepare the uh the piece of the, you know, the upper part of the foot, the shin there, for the for the for the table. Invites 11 friends over, and they all have tacos.
+
+[16:36] With they marinated the cookie onions, they have tacos, they have tacos with it. Now, here's where it gets crazy. Here's where the shout out is especially important. He goes, everyone wanted to know what it tastes like. Apparently, only one of his friends refused to eat it.
+
+[16:49] Only one of his friends refused to eat it. Says, you know what it tastes like? He's like, I've had heritage pork before. I swear to God. He's like, I've had heritage pork before.
+
+[16:58] He says, when people say people taste like pork, it's not like the pork you get in the supermarket. It's more like heritage pork. Wow, Patrick Martins. Yeah, he says it's like redder, and he says more beefy. So I think what he means is just like a higher kind of blood content, like obviously older.
+
+[17:14] The guy's 38, so obviously like older, like more flavorful. I mean, obviously that deserves a spot. I mean, I would have, if Shiny wants to, I mean, I don't have any contact with Shiny. I would have Shiny. You have vice contacts.
+
+[17:27] I, you know. Yeah, but like, I mean, like that is right up the that's right up our alley, though. Remember how angry you were at the Japanese guy that overcooked his penis? Uh yeah, yeah. I was I was like horribly, I was upset.
+
+[17:39] I mean, like, I have to say You get one shot. You get one shot. Now, the the you know, look, the issue is I don't think they had that much. They wanted to divide it up between 11 people. He said it was a little to be honest, Shiny said it's a it was a little bit kind of disappointing on a textural level.
+
+[17:53] I mean the the real issue is I think that's where you're gonna have to spend your time is getting the texture right. You know what I mean? I would say if you were gonna do it, no matter how you now marinating it is great because it's gonna soften up the protein. But the issue is is that the the kind of connective tissue that you have in a cut like that, even just like standard fajita working, isn't gonna do it. You're going to need to do some serious.
+
+[18:16] I mean, if his foot wasn't already jacqued hard enough by like, you know, smashing it into a tree when he flew off of his bike, you know what I mean, off his motorcycle. I mean, that's some serious tenderization there, right? But I would have I totally would have taken like, you know, if you're gonna do it, get the jack card, right, and do some serious jackharding on it so that you can get the taste you want, but not have it kind of be tough because he said it was tough. And science has figured out not even science, like classic butchery has figured out, like with your cube steak or things like this, how to get the texture right of anything by just pulping the hell out of it with a bunch of needles. I would have suggested that.
+
+[18:57] Are you saying that if Shiny had been like a religious uh acupuncture fan, he would have tasted better? Well, no, no, I'm saying, like, I don't think any amount of acupuncturing of the live stuff, because remember, there it's not like trying to turn you into Hellraiser into pin cusher, although, you know, I guess you have a lot of needles in you. Like jackharding is like relatively large, they call them needles, but they're almost like little, like um it's like a dog brush. Yeah, but it's like but they're thicker. It's like uh, it's almost like uh like uh kebab skewers, you know what I mean, but sharper.
+
+[19:27] And you and they're in one of those like uh like a spring-loaded pinhead thing, and you're like chugging, chuck it, chuck it, chuck it, chuck it, chuck it, and just shreds the meat into something so that you never gonna have I mean it basically removes the texture. It's a mechanical means to remove texture from meat instead of grinding it. Grinding would be another way to go. Emulsified sausage. If you want the flavor, but the texture is terrible, get some fat, make an emulsified sausage with it.
+
+[19:51] Tell the tell the Japanese guy's story. But we said this on the air many times. You never did. I know. What?
+
+[19:58] I I know you never did. Well, this is not family friendly, it's a human body. It's not like the guy he was a he was a guy, he wanted to be completely genderless. This is a true story. He wanted to be completely genderless, he wanted to be completely asexual.
+
+[20:15] So he had his private parts surgically removed, so that he just has a or I mean, I don't know what I don't know what pro town, but I don't know what pronoun, I don't know the the favorite pronoun that was chosen afterwards, but so there was just a uh like a flat spot there, and then cooked up the junk and auctioned off on eBay rights to come eat his junk. How did we know it was overcooked? Because one of the one of the people who had paid, one of the paying guests, was like, it was rubbery, it was overcooked. And and for years I've been very upset at this person for for doing this because as Nastasi said earlier in this in this speech here, you've got one shot. Right.
+
+[21:05] You got you only cut your junk off once. And if you're gonna do it, do it right. This is why like I think shiny is onto something here shiny got a chef friend to do it and you said you would have circulated the thing the junk oh defin definitely for well the thing that the the it's like one of my life missions I think I've said this before but one of my life goals is to cook woolly mammoth meat like not Nouveau like Jurassic Park style woolly mammoth meat but I mean one of the one of the side effects one of the I guess like you know posit you know possible positive side effects of uh it's not a good side effect I don't even know why I'm saying that of global warming is that the tundra is melting at a ferocious rate and as it happens like these woolly mammoth uh woolly mammoths mammoths mammi mammoths are are like are getting thawed out and they're finding all over Siberia these woolly mammoths and apparently some of them are still fresh enough to eat even though they're like you know 12, 13, 14, 15, 20 thousand years old right life goal is to cook some of that but the key the key to cooking anything that you've never cooked before is running some tests right you have to run some tests. So uh yeah I mean I would definitely circulate some to see kind of what happens to the woolly mammoth meat. What does that have to do with penis?
+
+[22:32] Oh because what you the mistake that I'm sure first of all this guy clearly not a cook from the way he cooked the stuff right he just I think you just you know fried it up I don't know I I don't remember like what kind of uh garniture uh was added to it. But what you need to do is you need to take a small a small enough portion away. People are afraid when they have a small amount of something to take some away to run some tests so that yes, it's true you only have a finite amount of this product and you can't get any more, but you risk ruining the whole thing by not running a small test first, right? So you gotta cut off a little bit and run a small test. That's what I that's what I would have done.
+
+[23:13] I think this is a mistake everyone makes. They don't they don't they they just kind of roll the dice. I know he garnished them with mushrooms and parsley. That's so weak. And they paid 160 pounds each, so that's 300.
+
+[23:28] Like again, weak. All terrible. Anyway, how do we get on this? Oh, yes, shiny. So if anyone out there knows Shiny, Matthew, you think we should get him on the show?
+
+[23:39] Obviously, yes. Shiny, call in, please. Yeah, please, shiny. Please, shiny. Uh, okay.
+
+[23:44] Uh, this is in we got another question from Scott who writes in looking to do a low sugar sorbet for personal consumption. My understanding is that a Paco Jet would handle this with ease, but it is five thousand seven hundred dollars retail. Is that really what a Paco Jet costs now? Damn, it used to be like 2500, right? It used to be so Nastasi is now showing me pictures, which oh my god, Nastasia.
+
+[24:08] Remember, this is a workplace. I know. Even though we're not getting paid, this is a workplace, and you have shown me some not safe for work photos, and I don't appreciate it. I just didn't want to be the only one that's all it's. See, that's people, people.
+
+[24:24] This is what Nastasia Lopez is like. She's like, I looked at it, and I don't want to have that image burned into my brain without you having that image burnt into your brain as well. This is classic Nastasia. She can't just make a mistake and live with it. She makes you live with her mistakes.
+
+[24:42] Anyways. Uh so we were talking about Paco Jets while you were busy looking up uh overcooked uh you know junk being sold on eBay with mushrooms and parsley. And do you remember when Paco Jet, they used to cost like three grand, right? Or 20 something hundred. They're up to five thousand seven hundred dollars.
+
+[25:00] Um for those of you that don't know, uh Paco Jet uh takes a blade, you freeze your your your product solid. Now they say that you can do all sorts of savory things, which is true. You can make fantastic textured mousses, but let's be honest, most people use it uh as an ice cream maker. You freeze your base solid, right? And this is the advantage of it, is that you you freeze it solid, then it stays good forever, unlike not forever, but it stays good for a long time, unlike ice cream, which has uh a lot of problems with uh recrystallization and kind of loss of texture after it's been spun.
+
+[25:32] Uh the Paco Jet, you kind of make that texture a la minute because a blade feeds very slowly into the solid frozen mixture and creates uh the texture uh of an ice cream or a sorbet as it goes on. So it's like first you create the the base, you freeze it solid, then you make the texture. Now, uh they are very expensive. Let me finish the question here. Wondering if you've ever heard of anyone fashioning something with a Paco Jet blade and a modified drill press.
+
+[25:59] Since I would want to do a full bri uh beaker at a time and have no commercial application for such a device, I'm trying to figure out as close as I can get on the cheap. Any advice? Uh, okay, here's the problem. The Paco Jet isn't just it the blade is important in the Paco Jet, but what's most important in a Paco Jet is the feed rate. So uh the feed rate on a Paco Jet is very they they also say that the exact kind of pressurization of the container in terms of getting the overrun, getting the air whipped into it is important.
+
+[26:27] You can read, and I have read many times because I was thinking about trying to build something, the patent that Paco Jet uh has, and in the patent for PacoJet, they let you know various things, like the optimum RPM uh to get uh the right texture. If you get too much RPM, you have too much heating and you don't create the right texture, too low an RPM uh and it takes too long to feed through and it also melts, so there's an optimum RPM. And then there's an optimum advance rate. So how far the blade advances uh down for every turn that it makes, and that the advance rate is what determines the crystal size in it, and therefore the smoothness of the ice cream. So the Paco Jet is all about having a large enough blade that you can get a good texture over a large amount of product, and that's the problem, frankly, with the smaller versions of the Paco Jet, like the uh FrickSair, which uh I have the Italian one.
+
+[27:17] The blade's too small and it can't really create the kind of large uh area of nice, beautiful homogenous texture that a Paco Jet can. But then uh it feeds down a very specific amount for every amount it goes forward, and there's also the way the blades are oriented helps uh kind of create uh the right texture and then feeds back up. But you have to get a big combination of things right. You have to get the feed down rate right, the speed of rotation right, and then also the correct amount of air uh air pressure or kind of tamping down on the top of the of the thing to get the um overrun correct. Overrun is uh in ice cream in Sorbet, overrun is the percentage air that's in your product.
+
+[27:59] So a hundred percent overrun means that your your ice cream is half air and half uh you know base. So most you know, premium things or things you do at home, you'd be shooting for a much lower, much, much lower overrun. Anyway, the other problem you have here, so no, I don't think you can do it with a um with a drill press. The other problem you're gonna have here, and this one is more severe, is that a PacoJet actually cannot make a very good low sugar sorbet. A very low sugar sorbet is very difficult to make because sugar isn't just a flavor, sugar also provides texture.
+
+[28:34] Remember, Nastasia, when people try to make low sugar stuff at the school and it's always grainy as hell, it becomes out more like a granita, or it's like an apoco jet even because it's so cold. It's like super dry. Remember, you've had like those like uh like low sugar ice creams or low sugar sorbets, people and then there's dry, dry, dry, dry, dry because it's like a powder. Like that they don't have like the textural effect that sugar has. So you if you want to go low sugar, you have to add something else to overcome the fact that you haven't put sugar in to get the texture right because uh sugar is the main thing that's doing freeze depression, so making it such that you still have liquid left at your ice cream and sorbet temperatures, and that's what's gonna provide the mouthfeel so it doesn't turn into like a snow pile of dry powder.
+
+[29:16] Uh and um I you could use things. I mean, I don't know why you want low sugar, whether it's for taste. If it's for taste, you can use non-sweet uh sugars, or whether it's because you're not allowed to have sugar, in which case uh, you know, that's a different thing. But anyway, uh so have you ever you ever found any technique for like kind of like at home making a good sorbet? No.
+
+[29:37] I mean, you can if you have a champion juicer, you can take frozen cubes of sorbet base and like push them through. The first couple will melt out, uh, but you can actually make that chum something into a sorbet. I've never really had much luck with a vita prep. You could probably vita prep the frozen stuff and then reset it in the fridge a little bit and probably get a good bit. But you're gonna wanna, you're never gonna get like the perfect texture, so I would add some fat to it in the form of like coconut milk, and that'll probably help get your texture right.
+
+[30:04] So you can do a smoothie and then a refreeze or the champion juicer. Uh but yeah, if you're gonna do that, you have to keep a lot of kind of structure in it because it's not gonna self-hold the way a sorbet is. That's why they do that with like frozen bananas, they do that kind of crap because the banana provides enough structure. Anyway, what do you think? You're like, you know what?
+
+[30:21] Don't care. Uh Matthew, you wanna take a break and come back? Yeah, let's do it. All right, come back more with more cooking issues. Uh just this last week I was uh using Bob's Red Mill uh almond flour.
+
+[30:48] And uh, you know, what I wanted to do with it was kind of make a version of an angel food cake because everybody knows that one of the main things that is not necessarily so good about an angel food cake is that it contains no fat. But if you add fat to an angel food cake, it deflates uh somewhat. So I thought maybe almond flour would be a good substitute in for the cake flour. Also, the structure of an angel food cake is almost entirely from the egg whites, and so you really don't want a lot of protein structure from something like a flour. So it's really a perfect application to A, make it gluten-free if if that's important to you, and B to uh really kind of reduce down to almost zero that kind of gluten uh protein kind of feel that's in the cake.
+
+[31:28] So what I did was I took uh 360 mils of uh egg whites, which is 10 extra large egg whites, and then uh 125 grams of the si now you have to sift this. Now, old school uh angel food cake recipes, you know, they have you sift all the ingredients. It's like super important with almond flour because nut flours tend to clump together a little bit. So push that through uh, you know, a sieve or a sifter or whatever you want. But 125 grams of uh Bob's Red Mill uh almond flour, then uh I use 150 grams of granulated white sugar and 150 grams of confectioner sugar.
+
+[32:01] Uh I add a little lemon for the egg white, which I'll just talk about in a second, salt, uh, which I don't measure. I mean, to be honest, I don't measure, I just do it by eye. And uh uh vanilla extract. Uh and here's a little something extra. So normally, like that ratio of weights would be perfect for an ancient food cake, but because uh almond flour doesn't work exactly in a in a moisture management technique uh like flour does.
+
+[32:22] I also added 50 grams of cornstarch to it. Uh so you sift all the um, do not sift the granulated sugar, but sift all the other dry ingredients into something, then uh take your egg whites, start them up, whip them up. Uh as they're coming whipping up, add your granulated sugar, add your vanilla, add a little bit of uh I add a little bit of lemon juice uh and salt, uh whip it up till it's uh stiff peaks, but don't whip it too much or it's gonna get granulated, you're gonna lose all of the volume of your cake. Then uh fold in the sifted almond flour, cornstarch, and powdered sugar mixture. Bake that sucker in an angel food cake pan for like, you know, I don't know, it depends on your oven.
+
+[32:57] Like I actually did it in my uh brevel toaster oven because it's you know it was too warm to fire up my big oven. And the the toaster oven was a little too small, so I got a little brown on the top. But it made a super moist, uh super delicious, gluten-free angel food cake that had a little bit, I think, better mouthfeel than a normal angel food cake because it contains both almonds, which are delicious, and fat, which as everybody knows is delicious. So go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking25. That's one word, all caps, cooking 25.
+
+[33:25] And remember, the number 25 and not the word 25 for 25% off your order. We are back. How are you doing, Nastas? Were you able to survive listening to that? I didn't listen to it.
+
+[33:40] Oh, there you go. There you go. Like Nastasia, like she's like, Don't I hear this jerk enough? I have to also hear him during the during the break. But thankfully she can just take off the uh did you listen to you?
+
+[33:52] No. Nah, no. Uh okay. So we have another question. Let's do it.
+
+[33:58] Also, you got a message from the uh chat that I don't even understand. I had pretty good success with uh erytheretol in a blackberry sorbet. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, as I well, it's an alternative sugar to get the texture right. Yeah, good.
+
+[34:13] Yeah, keep them coming. Keep suggestions coming. But do any of you have techniques for making a decent sorbet without having any sort of decent machine? I mean, that's the real, that's the real kicker there. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:25] And I think it's gonna be some combination of hey, you know what else you could do? If you're doing a um, you know how uh you ever done uh where you just kind of like you know make a whipped cream base and then freeze it, or like a mousse and you freeze it. It's not quite like an ice cream, but it's good. You ever done that stuff? Yeah.
+
+[34:42] Do you ever do anything? Yeah, but you never do anything. Anyway, you can do that. I bet you could do something like with like uh like a make a like a almost like a sorbet mousse, like with a hydro gel or something, you know what I mean, and then freeze that, it would probably be pretty good. Like you could probably do.
+
+[34:57] I mean, that's the thing, he wants it to be not cream-based, cream is so good that way. You could do like a like a reinforced like fluid gel, uh, like fold it in with whipped cream and then freeze that sucker, and the texture would be great, but that's not a sorbet. You could probably, the problem is is that unreinforced, you know, you could do a very dense, like uh methyl cell foam and then maybe freeze that, but it's gonna be really airy. It's like gonna be a huge overrun. How would you dense that up?
+
+[35:26] If you can make a nice dense foam with a uh if you can make a nice dense foam and then freeze it relatively quickly, uh you could probably make a decent uh sorbet texture without any sort of machine. But I don't know. If anyone on the uh chat room has tried this, uh let me know. You remember when they used to do, they used to put like the ice cream base when like Alex DuPac used to put the ice cream base into a uh vacuum chamber and it would turn almost into a cake. Did you like that stuff?
+
+[35:53] I like that. It's crazy. I made it once? Mm-hmm. What, just for just for giggles at the at the place?
+
+[36:00] Yeah, that was a fun technique. Uh okay. So we have this call in from Kyle Youngblood. He says, hey, cooking issues team, and the rest. Uh I'm looking to make a lobster shell stock.
+
+[36:12] I have five one gallon bags of lobster tail shells in the freezer and was looking to use them for staff soup. Soup. Remember when we made that milk soup? Were you there for that one? And like people were coming up, they're like, What are you serving?
+
+[36:25] Milk soup. Remember that? Yeah. We were like, what? We're like, it's like a variant on a Colombian milk soup.
+
+[36:32] Changwa, have your milk soup. People were like, no, I don't want it. We're like, it's delicious. And really, and they're like, no, you like lost me with the way you said milk soup. And we're like, come on, man.
+
+[36:41] Oh, by the way, here's another thing. If you we did the event, uh existing conditions, even though we're not open yet, we did uh city uh city meals on wheels, like their giant gala at Rockefeller Center. When are you doing that? It was yesterday. Remember when we did that at uh a similar event and Jean-Georges dressed up as a sailor boy?
+
+[36:56] And you dressed up like not cracked. Yeah, well, no, no, you made me buy, you see Nastasia again with the bus throwing. Nastasia goes. Nastasi and I right. We we we go to a thrift store, Nastasi's like, you have to buy it.
+
+[37:08] It's a sailor theme. You have to buy, you made me buy a shirt with a sheep on the back. And a rainbow. And a rainbow, and the sheep was like made of sodon like cotton balls, such that it was a puffy-backed sheep with a freaking rainbow. And Nastasi was like, you must buy this, or I won't work with you anymore, and you must wear it.
+
+[37:32] So she makes me wear this to the freaking event. Jean-Georges came in a very, you know, Jean Chef Jean-Georges Vangeriction came in a very natty sailor boy outfit with the round sailor hat with like the with the little blue tassel coming off of it. You know what I mean? Jean-Georges is like calling the amazing Alzheimer. Anyway, so he shows up at this event.
+
+[37:48] And so Nastasia, who forced me to buy this freaking shirt, is now is giving me crap saying I was not dressed properly when in fact it was she that made me do it. And this again is classic Nastasia Lopez. Anyway. I'm gonna find that photo, yeah. I'm gonna post that.
+
+[38:02] So I did this uh event yesterday with existing conditions. So uh who went with this? Uh Jamila, Jack, Bobby, you know, like opening crew. I don't even know. What are we talking about that?
+
+[38:13] How do we even get to that? Nothing. Oh, there it is. Why did that how did that come up? Why did that even come up?
+
+[38:18] That we did a city. Oh, I know why. Nastasia and I are the worst at everyone who does these events, they have somebody whose job it is. And if anyone listening is doing these events, Nastasi and I are always embarrassed because we spend all this time and energy working on the product and zero time thinking about the booth. Am I right, Stas?
+
+[38:38] Yeah. So like everyone is like, people have like river stones and buoys and like multiple levels of freaking serve wear and like it's all fancy looking, and then we're like, it milks soup. You know what I mean? And like the our table looks like a like a crap show. It's like everything's spilled everyone.
+
+[38:56] Same thing last night. Like we never take the we spend so much time on our our ingredients and on the on the stuff that we're preparing that we never take the time to to like make our little booze look good. And by we're changing that. I'm now appointing somebody at the bar to whose job it is whenever we do an event to style out the booth. You think that's a smart move style?
+
+[39:18] Yeah, totally. You're gonna do that. Do you do this with pasta flour? Do you style out your booth? Yeah, no.
+
+[39:23] You need to hide you need to get someone at the pasta flour style it out. When Nastasia is the queen of styling out like her boxes, like if you are a famous person and Nastasia likes you, so it's a very small subset of people because she hates most people, and there's not that many famous people out there, but she is still like why don't you tell the people about some of your styled out boxes? I mostly do black men really well. And in terms of styling out their boxes? Yeah.
+
+[39:52] Yeah. I found out that I'm a great um hand cut construction paper male black person, artwork person. Yeah, I'm just gonna let that stay right where you put it. And I'm not gonna say one damn thing about that at all. But it's true.
+
+[40:12] Uh okay. Okay. The roots. Yeah. Who else?
+
+[40:16] Yeah, pasta flyer just did the roots picnic the other day. No, it's fun. Yeah, in Philadelphia. But tell tell them that tell them what made you the most angry. Oh.
+
+[40:24] No, I don't want to. Because I don't know if I don't want to. She had to leave early. Yeah. Made her angry.
+
+[40:29] I still do not. I can say this because both my grandparents are dead, but I still have never forgiven them for uh making me leave my mom and stepfather's wedding early. So for what? Really? Oh yeah, because oh my god, I never told you this story.
+
+[40:44] No. Okay. So my stepfather's family, you know, uh, you know, they're Italian, right? The father who died last year is butcher, right? And you know, Gerard was, you know, Gerard is the you know, the son, and even though typically, you know, my mom's family would have paid for the wedding, you know, grandma and grandpa were too cheap.
+
+[41:05] So, and you know, they didn't have the money. So Gerard's dad throws this huge wedding, goes all out on the food, all out. So for months I'm hearing about the food at this wedding, the food at this wedding, the food at this wedding. And how old were you? Uh, how old was I?
+
+[41:17] This uh 12, 11, 12. So they tell me, they're like, we're getting this special Italian pastry from the North End. Juspidi. We're getting just speedy. I'm like, just speedy, what's just speedy?
+
+[41:29] They're like, it's this thing. It's like this, it's like this ethereal, amazing, it's the shuspidi. Oh man, oh Laddie, you're getting the shuspidi for the wedding, you're getting the just speedy. Oh, there's just speedy, oh there's just be the speedy. Everything, everything, every day I hear, oh, oh, are you sure you're gonna have this peedy?
+
+[41:43] Yeah, we have the shuspidi, we get the shuspidi. And then they're like the day of the wedding, did you pick it up? Did you get speedy, yeah, just speedy? And so, like, you know, I'm waiting for this whole wedding. It's you know, I'm not, you know, I'm young, I don't drink, it's boring, and it's not boring, my mom's getting married in Gerard everything.
+
+[41:55] So it's great. But we're all sitting around, I'm like, I'm like, the whole thing, I'm like, okay, the dinner, great, yeah, the lamb, great, great, great. Oh, food food, good, yeah. Just beaty, just beatty, she's speedy, she's beepy, she's beaty. They start doing the dancing, they're getting ready to bring out the thing.
+
+[42:07] And grandma and grandpa are like, we're leaving now because we're getting in the motorhome and we're driving back home now. I'm like, no! And I never got to have the freaky Juspidi. And here's the worst part about it. We get in the freaking motorhome, leave the wedding early.
+
+[42:24] We drive. By the way, my grandparents lived in my driveway for three years in this freaking motorhome. One day they just showed up, put the motorhome on blocks, and plugged into our house and didn't leave for three years. When they finally got that thing out, there was dent. There was a dent four inches deep in our freaking driveway from the blocks of this motorhome.
+
+[42:41] Grandma who only like used electric blankets, she used electric blankets constantly. We constantly blow out the circuits in our house because there's freaking umbilical cord coming out of this motorhome, which contained get this grandma, grandpa, two dogs, and a parrot. I swear to God. Anyway, so they drive back from this wedding, and we end up in the bottom of the driveway, and then they look at me, they're like, Do you have keys to get into the house? No!
+
+[43:07] I don't, Grandma. I'm 11. Why did I leave my mom's wedding early so that we could drive through the night and end up in a driveway, and I can't even get into my house, and now I've never had just speedy. And to this day, I don't even remember what a Juspeedy is, but it was so much like I like I just walk around sometimes and just goes, just beatty, just beattie, just beatty, just beatty. Anyway, back to lobster shells.
+
+[43:34] So uh who is this? We have oh yeah, we have uh Kyle. Kyle's making lobster shells. He has five one gallon bags of lobster tail shells in the freezer and was looking to use them up for staff soup. That's how we got on that.
+
+[43:46] That was a long way to a long trip afield from soup. Wait, did you have to sleep in the motorhome? Yeah, I had to sleep in the goddamn motorhome. By the way, they one of the dog's names was Taffy, it was a chow, and I've only recently overcome my hatred of chows because of this dog Taffy. This dog was the meanest dog ever.
+
+[44:05] So uh like honestly, I hated this dog so much that when whenever grandpa would walk Taffy when when when he looked the other way, I would make a face at the dog so the dog would growl and grandpa would yank its chain. That's how much I hated this dog and how much this dog hated me. The dog really hated everyone except grandma and grandpa. But I, when I slept in the motorhome, I would sleep above the driver's seat in that little like bed that's like sticking out over the highway there. Dog would not let me out of the bed to pee.
+
+[44:35] So I would like whenever I stay in that motorhome, I had to this is how I learned to fly for like 14 hours straight without peeing because once you were in that bed, there was no bathroom visits the whole freaking night because Taffy would sit there with her satanic freaking devil dog eyes and just growl at you if you ever tried to put your feet over and get down and use the restroom. Nightmare. Nosia speedy. Uh five one gallon bags of lobster tail shells in the freezer, and was looking to use them up for staff soup. I know if you boil shells too long, they give the stock a bit of a calcium taste.
+
+[45:12] This is a true story, Kyle. Uh, would making a double or triple stock out of the shells lead to a bad tasting stock? I don't think so, but I don't know how much of a gain you're gonna get. You know what I mean? Like, I think you're probably gonna be better off making the uh a single stock and then reducing it.
+
+[45:26] Um but anyway, I'm I'm not sure. I've never tried it. Someone in the chat room maybe has some uh advice on this. I've never done a uh triple stock on um on lobster. Uh I would plan on doing a short simmer on each infusion of new shells around 30 minutes to an hour.
+
+[45:40] That's about right. I just like I say, I've never had an experience with triple stock. Uh besides shell stock, here's where I do have some ideas. Besides shell stock, do you have any suggestions on what to do with all these shells for the employee dinner? We have a lot that we can go uh that we can go through, and I'd rather not throw out the rest of the shells when everyone gets tired of soap.
+
+[45:57] Thanks for the episodes, Kyle Youngblood. Yes. What you need to do, Kyle, is you need to make lobster butter, lobster butter, lobster, lobster butter. Don't you like lobster butter, Nastasia? That is it.
+
+[46:10] Well yeah, take the shells, you roast them off. No. What? I don't like any shell stocks or anything with shells in it. Like anything of the flavor of shells.
+
+[46:20] Hate. But when they're cooked too long in a cal sam or at all. Just hate. Okay, well, Nastasia is a low-quality individual here. Here's what you need lobster butter.
+
+[46:28] So you I typically you roast off the shells a little bit, right? You roast them off. Then you you you you toss it, you chop them up real small, you know, fine, cut them up real small so you get like fast extraction, and then you you throw it in with butter, and you can do it in the oven almost like you would for clarified. You can do it stovetop, you can do whatever you want. But you steep the shells, you could do it in a in a ziploc bag.
+
+[46:48] I've done that before. Um the problem with ziplocks and lobster shells is it's super easy to puncture the zippy, so then that's the one kind of reason that you don't necessarily want to bag this stuff out, but whatever. So you you kind of steep it for a long time, and that in the the butter will extract like a beautiful color from the shells, and you'll get beautiful flavor from it. Then you strain the whole sucker off, chill it, and then any scum that floats or any liquid that you somehow inadvertently left into the into the butter, you skim off beforehand, otherwise it won't keep, right? So you you chill it, you get rid of anything that's on the top or the bottom of it, and now you have like a solid chunk of lobster butter.
+
+[47:23] Roll that real tight, get rid of all the air, and you can freeze it to use for a long time. But the way that God wants you to use this lobster butter is making lobster rolls. Now, Nastasia, you're a hot lobster roll fan or a cold? Uh either. Matthew, you uh I do hot.
+
+[47:39] Yeah, me too. I like a hot lobster roll. And I like a hot lobster roll where it's just like a soft, almost like uh Martin's hot dog like split, but like the one with the flat sides, you know what I'm talking about? Not really Martin, you know the flat side hot dog buns, split, toasted, and then just toss big chunks of lobster meat. I like some tail, but you gotta have claw.
+
+[47:59] You gotta have claw in your in your lobster roll. You like claw sauce? Yeah, you gotta have claw, right, Matthew? Indeed. Yeah.
+
+[48:05] Make sure you have enough salt in there, and then toss that stuff in the lobster butter, put that on the bun, it's all you need. It's all you need. You don't need to gussy up your freaking uh lobster roll, people. All you need is butter, preferably lobster butter, chunks of lobster, and then uh on the on that bun, which I also like to toast off a little bit, and then man, the good news about that is you just cook more lobster, so now you have more tails to make more butter. Uh cooking issues.
+
+[48:52] Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[49:11] Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better fairer more delicious place and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community rate the shows you like tell your friends and please join our community by becoming a member just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage thanks for listening
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed in their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code Cooking25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking, and then the number two and the number five for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:26] I'm HRN's communication director Kat Johnson with a preview of the next episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup. We're exploring the future of eating animals, and we're going beyond typical meat sources. If you look at the length of human history, we've been eating insects a lot longer than we haven't been in the United States and Western Europe. We're looking at unusual ways to purchase meat. People are like, really?
+
+[0:49] Why would I want to buy that out of machine? And we introduce you to Frank Reese, a poultry farmer whose traditional farming methods are featured in a new documentary. I'm a fourth generation farmer in Kansas, and I focus basically all on standardbread poultry and have my Hawaii. He's kind of the last one standing with these rarefied breeds that are so important for if we're gonna eat chicken and turkey into the future. He's essential.
+
+[1:16] He's a national treasure. Listen to Meet and Three this week to better understand the history and the future of meat. Available on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you pre-recorded! Why?
+
+[1:44] Because there's no freaking internet here, and there are no telephones. At Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Well, you're just that's just your phone. That's a game you have. Apparently, uh, you know, Brooklyn, tech hub that it is, we have no internet here.
+
+[2:03] And Dave in the booth, how you doing? I'm good. How are you? How are our voice over IP telephones working, Dave? We don't have voice over IP telephones.
+
+[2:12] So don't bother calling in your questions to 718497-2128 because you can't listen to this live anyway because it's not on the internet. Here's some more fun news. This particular area of Brooklyn is a blackout zone for ATT. And Nastasia, what carrier do you have? A C and T.
+
+[2:28] Booker, who's here. It's bring your child to work life. What do you have? What carrier do you have? What what's your telephone carrier?
+
+[2:35] Uh ATT. Yes, so am I. So that means we have zero internet here. Now uh there's I don't even need to use internet for what I'm doing. I am apparently I am playing Brickbreaker, which has been keeping me up late every night these the this past week.
+
+[2:50] Yeah, Brickbreaker is uh the game from uh from the Blackberry back in the day. But many people missed it, so it's now available for iPhone. Yeah, so I was gonna push something that uh we're doing at the bar tomorrow, existing conditions, but I guess there's no point since it's not going out live. Well, it could go out in what, an hour or so? Yeah, I mean, I can still post this on the internet.
+
+[3:12] That's where everybody's gonna hear it anyway. Oh, wait, I have no internet. No wait. Yeah. And like, I was gonna try to get Chris Young from Chef Steps to call in to uh, you know, answer one question that I didn't even bother really looking up the answer to because I was like, oh, I'll go right to the source.
+
+[3:26] But we can't. He won't be young for long. Well, he will always be young. He will always be. He's forever young.
+
+[3:32] That's his last name. Forever young. You know what this means, Dave? You gotta use your brain and not the internet. Well, except for like, you know, that's great if you counted on using your brain, but since I haven't been able to use my brain effectively for how many years, Nastasia?
+
+[3:45] Many decades. So anyway, as the listeners of the show will know, uh Booker, my uh eldest son Booker, is working for Nastasia. Did you say illness son? Eldest. Eldest.
+
+[3:58] You're his illest son. Yeah. Uh anyway, is working for Nastasia at uh Pasta Flyer, and Booker apparently does no conception of how scheduling works, right, Nastasi? Right. Because I'm I'm only 16.
+
+[4:15] This is I have 17 year olds that work there. And 16. Yeah, I learned to tell time when I was a lot younger than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so so Booker's big thing is he's like, so uh I want to work today.
+
+[4:26] How's about today? Yeah. And Nastasia's like, Booker makes his own schedule for the restaurant without bothering to tell the person who's doing the schedule for the restaurant. How does that work out, Steve? Not okay.
+
+[4:36] But I didn't know. I told you the last time you worked. Alright, well. Now he knows. Now he knows, and knowing is it means two weeks.
+
+[4:46] Two weeks. Well, G.I. Joe. Yeah, you know, uh, I told you about the pork chop sandwich, right, Dave? No.
+
+[4:51] You know about everyone, I mean, I'm assuming that many people who listen to this have seen the fake G.I. Joe. Well, they're real PI J uh G. I. Joe PSAs.
+
+[5:00] P.I. Joe is his private investigator cousin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they they remix the end and they add stuff. So anyway, my one of my favorite ones is pork chop sandwiches.
+
+[5:09] You know that one, right, Dave? No. You're not cooking. Yeah, I can't. I can't go to YouTube, so I don't know.
+
+[5:14] Yeah, but you should already have seen this 8,000 times. I don't have children, so. Uh, excuse me. Uh this was when you were a child. This came out when you were still in diapers, practically.
+
+[5:23] Yeah. You're not cooking. Yeah, dude. Ba bla blah blah blah. And then the guy runs pork chop sandwiches.
+
+[5:27] And then he says a bunch of not safer radio stuff and goes in and then gets the kids out. Anyway, so like Bobby Murphy at the uh, those of you who know will know. Bobby Murphy at the bar was developing a pork chop sandwich, which is an Iowa. Did you know Iowa pork chop sandwiches are saying? I talked about the Iowa pork chop sandwich and how they're like huge and like silly, this giant schnitzel coming out of a ridiculous piece of bread.
+
+[5:50] Yes. So we're having Bobby's version of the Iowa pork shop sandwich. Pork chop sandwiches. Tomorrow? Tomorrow, no, it won't be to that's on the full menu.
+
+[5:58] So tomorrow, the at the bar in existing conditions, there are still some tickets uh available. I think there's a couple tickets available. I would search how to get to the website, but I don't have internet. Uh and I don't have it on the top of my head, Dave, as you expect me to have everything, what the site is. But it's I think it's on some crazy site called Brown Paper Bag or something like this.
+
+[6:17] Have you heard of this thing? Yeah, it's a like a ticketing site, right? I think so. I think it's on I think it's on that. Go to my Twitter, go to Cooking Issues if you're interested.
+
+[6:24] Tomorrow night, we're having a preview because we don't have our liquor license yet. Supposedly, supposedly, the SLA, the State Liquor Authority board, is meeting tomorrow. And tomorrow is the day that we will have the firmness of liquor license in our you know, sweaty little palms, and we can announce the official, official opening date of existing conditions. Can't wait to get firm. Yeah, right?
+
+[6:49] But tomorrow, uh, we're gonna do a preview, and it's being sponsored by, I think either by Mace or by Boilermaker. So another bar is sponsoring our bar so that we can buy a liquor. Oh, I I gotta tell you this. Okay. Um when Booker and Dax closed, um, the new bar cannot keep that name.
+
+[7:07] And um, and then I say, ooh, how about Dax and Booker? Right. Well, I still hope, I mean, I still hope someday to reopen a uh a Booker and Dax. Would you like to be able to someday go to a bar and or a restaurant that uh had your name on it, Booker? Uh it would be a little awkward, but still kind of nice.
+
+[7:28] I think Dax would enjoy it. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. We'll work on it. Uh okay.
+
+[7:33] So uh long time uh listener and uh, you know, uh what do you call that? The correspondent. Uh not in the sense of like correspondent news correspondent, but one who corresponds with you. Yeah, right? Kang Ingber wrote in.
+
+[7:45] He says, Hello, Nastasia. Uh I lost track of how recent the podcast on cooking body parts was. It was recent. But I listened, uh found it grimly amusing. The funny and quirky Dave Sederis, David Sidaris, has a new book that includes uh his adventure of his fatty tumor and how to feed it to turtles.
+
+[8:04] That sounds gross. You hate the word tumor, right? Yeah. You hate it. I know.
+
+[8:07] Yeah. It's usually a sign of cancer. Yes. Uh I was also disappointed to learn in the same show that you are the world's worst friend. Now I was talking to Nastasi here.
+
+[8:16] Uh I mean, I heard it before, but I didn't think much of it. My dad said his ring tone to him, saying you were mean to me whenever she calls him. That is true. Uh, but when I've heard the same thing several times, I cannot, I can just not oh wait, so I cannot just dismiss it. Although, as I think of it, all the allegations come from the same source.
+
+[8:34] That's true. Um I'm checking once again to see if you ever watched or gave the link uh to Dave and family to insist they watch Steven Banks Home Entertainment, which is an old 80s thing, so you guys can go look that up on the internet if you're a fan of 80s entertainment. Yes, I did watch it. I enjoyed it. Okay, uh, that's from Kenneth Ingbert.
+
+[8:49] Now, about this uh guy who chopped his foot off. A listener sent to Nastasia the Reddit through the direct Reddit thread uh that apparently if you scroll through a bunch of stuff, you can get to this person's email because we wanted to contact him and perhaps get Mr. Foote Eater on the show. How'd you like that, Dave? Uh I'm ambivalent about that.
+
+[9:12] You're in what do you mean you're in? But you wouldn't want to have Mr. Foote Eater call in and people could ask him questions about eating. Sorry, wait, what's the backstory here? He eats feet.
+
+[9:19] Oh, we weren't here. You don't remember. Oh, you weren't there for this episode. Was this when Matt was filling in? Yeah.
+
+[9:24] This guy lost his foot in a motorcycle accident and ate it. Well, wait. Had a chef friend cook it and then consumed it with friends. He was in a motorcycle accident. That doesn't answer my question.
+
+[9:35] Why? The guy was on the table, probably high out of his mind on whatever they were giving him to not pass out from you know the pain. And the doctor said we amputated your foot, and the first words out of his mouth was Can I keep it? Speaking of amputations, I just got my ingrown toenail cut away, and I was and since it was infected, I was very worried that the toe would have to be amputated. This is this is what we call in the trade booker too much information.
+
+[10:02] Too much information. Anywho. Okay, sorry. The guy wanted to uh freeze dry it, but he didn't have the cash, so he cooked it instead. Fair?
+
+[10:10] Fair. Anyway, this is a real person. He's on the Reddit, and someone sent to Nastasia a way to contact this person. The Reddit thread, which apparently his email is in the Reddit thread. Uh but just so everyone knows, Nastasia did not have the stomach to sift through the photos to look for the dude's email address.
+
+[10:31] Do I ask Dave to do it? So she asked me to do it this morning. Yeah. So if you do it, I'll kind of do that. Why do I have to do it?
+
+[10:38] Somebody has to do it. David, do you want to do it? If I I can't speak to it's a good one. Dave in the booth. Wait, what?
+
+[10:43] Sorry, I was distracted because the internet just came back on. Oh. My brother loves that horn. Wait, what do you want me to do? You're gonna pay me to do something?
+
+[10:56] No. Well, no, the way Heritage Radio Network is gonna pay you to find this guy's email to get him on as a uh as a telephone guest. Yeah, I could probably do that, sure. Yeah, yeah. But like uh, yeah, but so so Nastasia's not willing to sift through all the uh pictures of frozen foot.
+
+[11:10] It's coming her way right now. Foot, one foot. I kind of don't have the stomach for those kinds of things. Oh, Hustino. Let's get it done, guys.
+
+[11:18] Okay. Call in all your questions too. 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128. That's a pretty good imitation there, Dave.
+
+[11:25] I like that. Yeah, I've been working on it. Yeah, nice. So you want to see if Chris Young is available? Yeah, I'll give him a ring.
+
+[11:30] All right, and I'll uh I'll do the next uh question here while we're waiting for it. All right. Uh my name is Laura Maddox. This is not me. My name is not Laura Maddox.
+
+[11:39] This is someone writing in. My name is Laura Maddox, and I work at a cocktail bar in Austin, Texas, called Small Victory, owned and operated by Josh Loving. Uh, we use your that was my that was kind of Casey Casey mask a little bit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
+
+[11:51] I wish, right? Casey Caseon. You ever I've no I've said this before on the radio, but you ever listen to the Flatland? You know Flatland, the old band? They got a uh recording of Casey Case and losing his freaking mind.
+
+[12:03] I've I've heard that one. It's a m it's amazing. About the dead dog. It's about the dead dog and you too. And like, and it's him going completely.
+
+[12:15] No, but he's like, so Booker, he has to introduce the you two, and he doesn't clearly doesn't know much about you too at all. And he's introducing this thing, and he's going from a happy song into this like dog dying, and he loses his mind. He's like, I go from a happy song into freaking dogs dying. Bullshit. He starts screaming and yelling and saying things like diddly shit, diddly shit, and then he goes what are you doing?
+
+[12:29] Family show. You can bleep it. This is a quote. I can't believe it. It's a Casey Case some quote.
+
+[12:41] I can't change the quote. I could try, I'll try to change the quote. And he goes, he goes, about you too, and you'll appreciate this. He goes, these guys are English, and who gives a mean? And I'm like, and I'm like, first of all.
+
+[12:53] First of all, not English. Second of all. Everyone. Everyone gives. I mean, like, it's so weird.
+
+[12:59] Anyway, and in the back, they have, I forget what U-2 song. It's like it's like Unforgettable Fire or something, playing with like a real tinky rinky dinky like Casio tone in the background. Amazing. Flatland. Check it out.
+
+[13:10] If you want to hear Casey Kasim losing his mind. This is back, by the way, before everyone and their sibling like leaked like studio tapes out. This was like the 80s. You know what I mean? So it was pretty funny.
+
+[13:23] These guys are English, and who gives a diddly, diddly. Anyway, it's like you like it, right? I love it. All right. Anyway, I don't know how we got on that.
+
+[13:32] We use your cordial with agar technique from Liquid Intelligence as a foundation for our house lime cordial. What do you think about the word cordial? It's okay. Cordial. Okay.
+
+[13:43] Do you like when someone says when when you say you're being cordial, it means you hate someone, right? That means you're being nice to them even though you hate them. Yeah, right. They were cordial. Anyway.
+
+[13:54] I was hoping to get a few tips on procedure and equipment that might help us increase our yield. Below is a recipe we've adapted uh for our space. 500 grams of lime juice, finely strained, 250 grams of white sugar, approximately 50 grams of uh lime zest, 250 grams water, and two grams of agar powder. All right, so let me look here. Basically I like the way you enunciated water like water.
+
+[14:20] Water. Uh so you have 750 grams of water and two grams of agar powder. So we're right off the bat. Uh it's a little high on agar. So you could go.
+
+[14:32] I mean, I typically use two grams per liter on agar. So um for my stuff, and the the firmer the agar is, and it's not linear, by the way, the firmer the agar is, uh, the less yield you're gonna get. So, anyways. Uh with paddle attachment, mix zest and sugar in Kitchen Aid for approximately 20 minutes. Let rest uh 10 minutes, add lime juice and mix until sugar is dissolved, strain out lime zest, and uh set the oleo, uh lime oleo aside.
+
+[15:03] Stir the agar powder into water at room temperature until it is fully well until it is dispersed. You can't dissolve it. You say dissolve here, but it's dispersed. Bring to boil, stirring continually for two to three minutes, transfer agar mixture to a heat-proof container, slowly pour lime oleo into agar mixture. Whisking continuously.
+
+[15:20] Once mixed, put cordial in the freezer for one hour until agar gel sets. It doesn't really need to be in a freezer, but yeah, you could do that. Or you could put it in, you don't want to freeze-freeze it unless you're doing freeze thaw, in which case go ahead. But yeah, you want it to set as soon as it really gets um down below room temperature, it'll set. And agar sets pretty quickly just once it goes all the way through.
+
+[15:40] Don't disturb it though, until so it's good to put it in there just so that people don't mess with it. Don't you find people are always messing with things, Nastasia? Especially Nastasia loves to poke at stuff. Did I ever tell the story on air, Dave, about Nastasia and F and D C blue? Yes.
+
+[15:52] Do you remember that one, Dave? Wait, what was it? About Nastasia and uh F and D C blue. What is it, number two? Did I ever tell you that one?
+
+[15:59] No. So F and D C Blue, I think it's two, right, Stas? I can't remember. The one that they use in all of the all of the foods, like booberry and whatnot. So, like, it's the stuff where if you eat 50 packages of booberry, you're poop green for a little while because as F and D C boo goes through your body, it turns green.
+
+[16:17] No, in fact. So we got it for I forget what experiment we were doing with it at the French culinary. I was like, hey, uh Nastasia, don't mess with it. And then I went to go get lunch, and I came back and I was like, you messed with it, Nastasia. She's like, what are you talking about?
+
+[16:31] How do you know? Her whole face was blue. Her whole face, Dave, was blue. Because the other thing you gotta know about Nastasia is. You mean it was boo.
+
+[16:39] Boo. She can't help but touching her face. This is a fact I know. So I didn't warn her that like this stuff doesn't look so bad, but if even the smallest particle of it gets on your hands, and then you touch anything else, that something becomes blue. So her face was like freaking violet Beauregard out of Willy Wonka.
+
+[16:55] It was amazing. It was awesome. I love Willy Wonka. Yeah, everyone loves Willie Wonka Booker. Everyone.
+
+[17:01] I think the old one, right? Booker, what do you think of the new one? The new one is so creepy, and Wonka is just so rude in the new one. Yeah. Never seen it.
+
+[17:10] And uh he's he's just an idiot. What's more? It's like he wants the he he derives pleasure out of watching the kids getting hurt in his factory. Yeah, yeah. He treats Mike TV like trash.
+
+[17:29] Well, Mike TV. That makes me sick, Booker. Even though Mike TV is kind of a jerk, Wonka still disrespects him. Yeah, so Booker, what is your uh alarm tone? You get nothing.
+
+[17:44] You lose. Good day, sir. You know, Booker, my my dream man in life has always been Gene Wilder. You know who that is. Your dream man is in a box.
+
+[17:53] I know that, but like if I was away and you wanted to like bring someone to do that. Oh, Johnny Depp is the is the actor of the trashy Willy Wally. Alright, back to Agar. No, one more thing. One more thing.
+
+[18:06] Debt means a bad word in German. I don't know about that. I took German and I never heard that. But anyway. Look it up.
+
+[18:14] Okay. So uh Do you want to take a call? Oh, yeah. Let me yeah, yes. Let me finish this real quick.
+
+[18:21] Are you still on that? Yeah. Okay. Uh I just lose track. Alright, so the agar sets now.
+
+[18:26] Once it's set, you break the gel into curds with a whisk, pour into a cheesecloth line strainer, and let the cordial leak out of the gel suspension. By the way, don't use cheesecloth unless you have access to real cheesecloth, in which case still use a bunch of layers. I actually use uh like uh dish towels or much better, like fine linen dish towels or cotton, like unbleached cotton muslin is kind of amazing. Or if you have the money on super bags, you can use super bags for it. Um anyway.
+
+[18:52] Um I forgot to say one more thing about Willy Wong. Okay, what? The Umpalumpas and the new and crappy one are so creepy. Well, it's only one guy. Anyway, okay.
+
+[19:02] The yield we get from this method. What's more, they're clones, so whatever one guy does, all the others do. Yes, that is a fact. Well, well, we could talk about I could talk about the original the Umpalumpas for a long time, but I will not. Okay.
+
+[19:14] The yield we get from this method is usually around 425 to 450 mils. So you're losing about 250 mils of liquid. We would like to make this ingredient more often and possibly in larger batches. For our cheesecloth line strainer, we're using a flat bottom Chinese uh strainer sitting on top of a large bowl. Usually it takes us several hours to leak the cordial out of the gel.
+
+[19:33] Do you have any suggestions you could pass along regarding tools and materials to scale this method up? We don't have access to a centrifuge, also. Uh, do you think there'd be any problems in doubling this recipe as is? I'm concerned about the straining leaking, losing its effectiveness as there's too much gel to work with. Um, so no, I think you can scale that up.
+
+[19:50] I would take the agar down a little bit. And uh if you're you're doing quick agar, so you can just sit there and manually kind of do it. You can get like a bunch of liters out by just manually um like it's called uh sorry folks, it's called massaging the sack. You pull the thing up and you kind of massage it and unclog the called. And you like unclog the thing, and how many liters have we done of quick at a time?
+
+[20:15] So many. So many, so many, so many. So many. So massaging the sack produces liters and liters. Liters and liters.
+
+[20:21] Liters and liters. Gross. But yes, anyway, so but the trick is if you squeeze too hard, you will extrude the stuff out, and then it's all nasty. You'll extrude stuff out of the sack, and nobody wants stuff extruded out of their sack, correct? Right.
+
+[20:34] Correct. Uh, it depends on the show, I guess. Wow, wow, wow. Don't want to go there. Anyway, but uh also like if you're doing a cordial that's going to be left for a long time anyway, you might want to consider doing freeze thaw.
+
+[20:46] If you're doing free stall, you let the thing freeze solid, right? Then you uncrack it, and then you let it thaw. Good day, sir. That's Booker playing his phone. So uh you let it thaw over the cheesecloth.
+
+[20:59] In that case, you do like a wide, wide thing, like over a perf pan. And Nastasia and I have done like in the case. It takes g many, many gallons. Like 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 gallons. Remember that party we did for 1500 people?
+
+[21:13] And we filled every freezer at the FCI with frozen grapefruit juice. But the problem with that is it takes a long time. It's a lot less labor and it's fairly high yield, but it takes a lot physically longer. Anyway, all right, we got a caller, caller on the air. Hey Dave, my name is Max from Boston.
+
+[21:30] Uh big fan. Um I got a sausage making question for you. Um and I wish I had caught Johnny Hunter. Um I've actually reached out to Underground Foods separately to ask the same question. So traditionally with salami, um, after you've stuffed the casings, there's a fermentation step where you you let the bacteria kind of come alive for a period between 12 to 72 hours, depending on the culture you're using.
+
+[22:00] Um traditionally this is done in like a fermentation room um set to a particular humidity and temperature. Uh my question for you is could this uh fermentation step be done sous vide? Um what are your thoughts on that? Uh I don't know. Um I mean the whole idea is to drop the pH, right?
+
+[22:27] Quickly. Um and you're also you're nitrating it, right? Or nitriting it, I should say. So botulism shouldn't grow. I mean, I'm I I can't think of any inherently reason why you could not do that.
+
+[22:43] But it's not commonly done, so there must be a reason why people don't do it. But I can't I mean I mean yeah, I mean, like, look at the same thing. My big concern would be right moisture loss. Um I'm I'm guessing traditionally during the fermentation step, you do have some moisture loss. I mean some, but it's done at a relatively high humidity.
+
+[23:03] You know what I mean? Relatively high. Right. And you're talking 48 hours, you're talking less than you're talking like 24 hours, honestly, right? Or less over the course of a several week uh drying and ferment and uh drying and aging procedure minimum, even for something thin, right?
+
+[23:21] So I don't know. I don't know. What uh hey uh Dave, uh, can you put that out to the chat room and see whether anyone there has tried this or knows why you cannot do it? If you were not nitrating it, I would say you put yourself in danger because you're not going to reheat the problem product, and you could get a um botulism growth, and then you would not be re-sterilizing it to get rid of the I mean that's the other thing, right? So typically during you're not smoking during the ferment.
+
+[23:50] The ferment is done in plain oxygen, right? Just in a regular oxygen environment. Right. I mean, so maybe they are worried about some botulism growth in that initial um point because you're adding nitrites and the drop in pH and the salt together form the hurdles that make it safe. So maybe it isn't inherently safe uh during that initial drop before the pH goes down.
+
+[24:13] I don't know. I'd have to, I mean, that if that's a real like safety technical question that I don't have at the tip of my fingers. Um but technically you you mean you will be able to get something to if you inoculate it with uh lactic acid bacteria and uh, you know, keep it at the correct temperature to ferment. Uh, uh those bacteria will grow. That's for sure.
+
+[24:38] You know what I mean? I know that because I've done sauerkraut in the bag, I've done kimchi in the bag, I've done pickles in the bag. Um, I ain't never done meat in the bag though. I mean, not on purpose. Every time I've tried to from every time something's fermented in the bag that's a meat, it's been a a horrific mistake.
+
+[24:54] And man was it atrociously smelled. Nastash, you ever there when we cut up one one of those uh fermented bloater bags? No. Ugh. One time, you were you there that time we did the pork shoulder and it fermented?
+
+[25:06] Yeah. And the entire room smelled like cheese. Yes. And we had all those people. Rotten cheese?
+
+[25:13] Well, I mean, no, like cheese. Like what cheese? Like Swiss? Like stinky feeds cheese. No, like stinky feeds cheese.
+
+[25:21] It was hardcore. Uh you ever notice how you didn't want to eat that. No. You ever notice how when meat, when something goes bad like that, your first your your first year's like, can I fix it? Can I fix it?
+
+[25:33] And you're like, well, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but you have that yet your mind for a second, can I fix it? Can I fix it? No, you can't.
+
+[25:38] No. That's like when we broke into the dining hall in college and the cops showed up and like the cops were like freeze. My first instinct was to try to climb out the window. What the hell was I gonna do? They could have shot you.
+
+[25:50] Not just that, I would have fallen, I would have gotten skewered. I would have been killed falling out the window. But your first instinct is not your best instinct. To you, David, were you able to look through that Reddit? Anyways, no, uh caller.
+
+[26:03] I have not looked yet. Caller, is this an answer? I know I have not answered your question, but um yeah, maybe someone in the chat room will get to it, or Johnny Hunter maybe will like text me back or or go on you know, cooking issues in the channel. Chat room says I fermented Koji sous vide, so I think the same principle can apply. Right, except for Koji, uh I don't know.
+
+[26:22] First of all, Koji a lot smaller. The question really is is do you need that oxygen at the beginning of the ferment to protect from botulism in something that will not later be heated and or so the whole point of botulism toxin is if you if you heat botulism toxin, it will be destroyed. Or if you don't produce botulism toxin, it will be destroyed. But if you merely um allow it to grow, then inactivate the bacteria, but leave the toxin, that's when there's kind of problems if you're not going to heat it again. But I don't mean if you have nitrates, I mean the question is is the salt and nitrite alone uh enough to prevent botulism growth, considering the fact that the pH is going to be dropping relatively rapidly because you're gonna have lactic acid bacteria that you inoculate.
+
+[27:07] Plus, um you you know, there's gonna be a lot of competition for the botulism to grow because of the lactic acid bacteria. So I mean, it sounds like it could work, but I would be very hesitant to say it's safe unless I had a food safety person tell me that it was. Okay, thank you. All right. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades.
+
+[27:41] Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bobsredmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code COKING25. That's all caps cooking and the number two and the number five for 25% off your order. So uh they sent me a little bit of their uh muesley mix, which I really kind of enjoy.
+
+[28:02] So uh, you know, muesley for those of you that don't know is kind of like uh imagine uh imagine like fruits, nuts, seeds, uh, oats, grains kind of smashed into kind of a uh thin, almost rolled like a rolled grain uh scenario. And instead of cooking it, I mean you can cook it, but typically you're gonna hydrate that in yogurt uh over a long period of time. You can do a quick one, you can hydrate the muesli in um in yogurt for like 10-15 minutes if you want it to be quick. Uh, or you can do the more traditional, which is actually on the back of their package, where you grate an apple, you take the muesli, and you take the yogurt, and you let it sit overnight. And I have to say, as far as traditional kind of uh products and textures, I mean I love uh I love that stuff.
+
+[28:44] So it's been a long time since I've had traditional muesli. My wife and I are constantly making fun of the word muesli because it's you know, uh we used to hang out with these Germans and any kind of cereal we would be eating, they'd be like, We has this also if we call it muesli. So, anyway, so like I make I like to make fun of it, but it's been a long time and it was uh it's really good to use. I'm sure also because it's all thin and easily hydrated, you can also add it to anything that's quick cook. So any quick cook recipe you have, your pancakes, your muffins, anything like this, you'll be able to throw the muesli mix in and get a shot of nuts, fruits, and oats in it at the same time.
+
+[29:19] It's not gonna mess with uh your recipe too much, so it's a good thing to have around in the house. So go to Bob'sredmill.com and use the code cooking25. That's one word, all caps, cooking25, the number two five, for 25% off your order. Alright. Alright.
+
+[29:41] Dear Dave, Nastasia, Dave in the booth. Uh, after burning through multiple food saver type sealers and being frustrated with trying to get a good seal on liquids or um items with high moisture content. By the way, I was at a thrift store the other day, and guess what the tag said? Moisture management. It was a pant.
+
+[30:00] Oh, yeah. The miracle of I was like, you're forgetting the most important word. The miracle, the miracle of moisture. Was that when you had to get Booker's shoes? Yeah, I had to Booker shows up another food service thing.
+
+[30:11] Booker tries to show up at work at a restaurant with open-toed shoes. And gross. Yeah. Unsafe. Unsafe.
+
+[30:18] Unsanitary. So I gotta. If boiling water gets poured on them or fry oil, how terrible that would be. Nah, you'd have a lot more than your toenail cut off if that happened. Alright.
+
+[30:29] Um. Okay, so this person is trying to get a food uh burn through food saver type sealers uh by using liquids with high moisture contents. I've decided to break down and buy a chamber vac sealer. The prosumer models from VAC Master, the 112 and the 120, 112S rather, and the 120, are in my price range, but they actually take up more counter space than the professional models due to the vac pump being on the side as opposed to underneath the chamber. I've also never used those.
+
+[30:54] A million people have asked me if they're any good. And people say, and uh, you know what I said every time? Don't know. Don't know. Never used one.
+
+[31:01] Those guys, listen, VAC Master. If you're out there, let me see you dance. Uh no, but like uh you said you was funky. But like my point is that like is it for any of you who listen to the black album? But the point is that I will never recommend something that I haven't not used.
+
+[31:19] Right, Nastasia? Right. Dave, is that makes sense to you? I'm not gonna recommend some stuff I haven't used. I know, like Bob's Red Mill, for example.
+
+[31:25] You're using it every time. Uh where you weren't here, I cooked a whole bunch of recipes with Bob's red milk. I heard, yeah, I have to edit those. Oh, you oh they didn't edit them for you? No.
+
+[31:36] Yeah. Are they gonna use mine? I have to say. I don't know. How bad was it?
+
+[31:40] Oh, it was pretty nasty. Like, it wasn't nasty, it's like, it's like, okay, Nastasia was giving me huge amounts of of uh of uh guff, let's say, about how I needed to do these. Every time she would talk to me about Booker and Dax business, uh, by the way, Sears all is back in stock, right? Yeah. Every time she would talk to me about Booker and Dax business, she would say, Did you do the Bob's red milk?
+
+[32:04] I used their almond flour for my angel food cake. I don't know whether what which one's going up. And I have to say, almond flour and angel food cake is an amazing sub. It's a great sub. Did you have a piece of the one I made before?
+
+[32:19] Or did I eat it all before, or did you not know that it was going to be good so you didn't eat it? Book by the way, Booker now is cooking. Check this out. Booker, are you a huge fan of the Star Wars movies? No.
+
+[32:30] No. Not as well, not as much as Dax. Right. But but what is your favorite cookbook? The Star Wars cookbook.
+
+[32:38] Booker has cooked almost every recipe out of both Star Wars cookbooks. And I think he has made those recipes more even than the writer of the book. I mean, the writer of the book probably didn't even make the recipes that were in that book. He's got to have. And so Booker has Booker has been cooking a lot, but oh exclusively using recipes from the Star Wars cookbook.
+
+[33:02] Ah, Booker. That's that's I'm proud of you. So tell him about your tote in the hole, Booker. What toad in the hole? The uh recipe.
+
+[33:10] Yeah, the tote in the hole. You know what toad in the hole is? What? That's toast with an egg in it. So Booker comes to me, he's like, Dad, I need a piece of toast seven inches long.
+
+[33:19] I'm like, Booker, you can't just I mean, like, no one makes, I'd have to find like an unsliced Pullman loaf, because no one makes that because he wants to put two eggs in it because that's Tatooine, right? That's how Tatooine has two sons, so it's two eggs in instead of one egg. That's the Tatooine toast. What's the name of that recipe booker? I forgot.
+
+[33:39] Oh, I forgot. Anyways, whatever. So we're back. I want to take a call. Okay, let me finish the vacuum thing.
+
+[33:46] All right. Most of the pro models are out of my range, but I've seen a number of Chinese made knockoffs on the eBay in the sub $500 range that I would be willing to take a chance on. Now I have that song. Take a chance, take a chance. Um yeah.
+
+[33:59] First of all, Jack from the from the bar like loves ABBA, plays ABBA all the time. But then but now, yeah, take a chance. Oh god. I hate that song. Take a chance on me?
+
+[34:11] Why? I don't like ABBA very much. Why? I don't like their music. Why?
+
+[34:16] It's it's greeting. You don't like happiness? No, she hates happiness. That's the thing she hates the most. Uh ABBA stand for.
+
+[34:23] It's just a word, ABBA. I don't know. Uh, one thing I noticed is how these low-cost units use an oil pump as opposed to a dry pump. I recall that sometime in the past you discussed this issue, but I don't remember which you said was better. Oil.
+
+[34:35] Um, can you share your thoughts on what I should be looking for in a low-cost chamber sealer and give any tips on maintenance, choice of bags, etc. Uh, thanks in advance. John in Jersey. Jonathan in Jersey. I love Jersey and Jersey.
+
+[34:48] Anyway, point being this. Again, uh, I it's hard for me, I should say impossible for me to recommend a product that I haven't used. Oh, I know how we got on that on that whole tangent before. Vacmaster, if you send us a unit, I will test it and see whether I think it's acceptable or good. The truth of the matter is, though, if I if I don't think so, I probably I just won't say anything.
+
+[35:09] But if I do, I'll recommend it, right, Nastasia? That's how I work. Alright, you gotta take this call because then we gotta go. Oh, okay, hold on a second. So on the oil thing, Philip Preston, who by the way, we're built we built this awesome system using a Philip Preston PolyScience chiller.
+
+[35:21] So if you want anyone wants to talk about chiller systems, like I got a lot of new information on chiller systems. But straight chilling. No, but more. I'm working more and more. I got more information.
+
+[35:31] But the point is, is that um Philip Preston once imported some of the Chinese uh Philip Preston is importing some of the imported some of those uh Chinese uh chamber systems. Now remember, if you just say Chinese, that's like like super racist to think that all Chinese units are the same quality, right? He imported some units from China that had oil pumps, and said that even when using moisture, that the pumps fundamentally fritzed out and like uh because they they weren't electrically sealed enough to not have problems when there was high moisture in the chamber. So even though um oil pump based pumps would be good for handling this kind of problem, the particular units that he had imported were not good enough. So just because it's got an oil pump, which is inherently superior as long as you keep it clean by running it for a long time, the reason they're superior is they can achieve a much lower vacuum much, much quicker than the equivalent dry pump can.
+
+[36:26] They broke a spinz all at the bar. That's fine. He wants you to know. That's fine. Why are you like he said make sure you tell him on the radio?
+
+[36:35] Why would you tell me on the radio? To make sure I did. Make sure you tell why what does that have to do with the radio? He wants you to know live. That's okay, fantastic.
+
+[36:44] Uh, we gotta go. But uh, take the caller, we'll take the caller. But point is I can't recommend it because I know people have had problems ordering no-name products off the internet, even though I think oil-based pumps are superior in general. Caller, you're on the air. Oh, okay.
+
+[36:57] Hi. Hey, how you doing? Very quickly. I know the spin ball has a density limit. So if I mix honey and oil to get below the density limit, could I run that in the spin ball in batch it?
+
+[37:19] Uh yeah. I mean, the problem look, the thing, honestly, the thing about density limits is just we didn't test anything for safety over simple syrup density. Like my personal opinion is that it'll be fine. My, but I can't say that it'll be fine just because it hasn't been tested. That's where that density limit comes from.
+
+[37:39] But yeah, if the ultimate density of the rotor is less than um, you know, four, you know, uh the if the density of the liquid in it ult the average density is less than 1.23 grams per CC, then you'll be you'll be fine. Okay. Did you but it might be might be fine anyway? Did you say you had something about the fermentation? Yeah, I mean I was just gonna say I ferment to um 30 Celsius in a circulator in an open hotel pan circuit.
+
+[38:15] No, that's a good idea. So there's still some oxygen there. Yeah, yeah, that's a smart idea. There you go. Leave some oxygen in the bag, and then you don't have to worry about uh like you know, just put put it in something and let it make sure it gets that's a good idea.
+
+[38:27] I like that. I like that. Thanks so much for all your help, then. Yeah, yeah, no worries. We're just uh I mean uh what can you make?
+
+[38:34] All right, cool. All right, thanks a lot. Be back with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[38:58] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[39:24] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed in their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code cooking25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking, and then the number two and the number five for 25% off your order.
+
+[0:27] I'm Southern Teague of Amoria Margot and co-host of the Speakeasy right here on Heritage Radio Network. You know, my favorite thing to do every week is to come here and be on the show. I have lots of jobs. I am a very busy person. Um and I do this because I love it.
+
+[0:42] I get to sit down and talk to all my heroes for about an hour every week. It's incredible. And I hope that you enjoy it. Making a great effort to share with you. We'd like you to share back with us.
+
+[0:52] It's our summer fundraiser, and we'd love for you to donate uh at Heritage Radio Network.org forward slash donate. You can click on the beating heart, and you can even choose shows that you'd like to donate to specifically. And you can also choose a recurring monthly uh gift. Uh and for all that we'd be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.
+
+[1:21] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to like, I don't know, 1245. I don't know, like one o'clock. From Virtus Breezer and Bushwick Brr Brooklyn Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Steve?
+
+[1:38] We got Dave in the booth. Dave, how are you doing? Good. And America's favorite punching bag father. Oh God.
+
+[1:48] Peter Kim. I'm like, I feel like this, I'm that guy in WWF when they come out, like everybody just booze. You know what I mean? You're the watch out for the metal chair. And I'm somehow and I I act oblivious to it and go around and pump my fist in there nonetheless.
+
+[2:05] Even though all the kids are like, boo! Yeah, yeah. Eat it up. Peter Kim, boo. So which wrestling character are you?
+
+[2:12] I don't know. You gotta look up the most hated. Let's see. Who was the who was the most hated one? When I was a kid, it was the chic was pretty hated.
+
+[2:21] Yeah. The chic. That's old school. That's an older, that's later, though. I'm dating more of the Randy Savage Hulk Hogan era.
+
+[2:26] No, she was doing it. Jake the Snake Roberts. Yeah, but like, yeah, so like uh wasn't Rowdy Roddy Piper was a heel, wasn't he? But people liked him, but he was a heel, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:36] Well, there was a point at which well Hulk Hogan's been on both sides, right? So he flipped over. Sure, sure, yeah. Are you Hollywood Hulk? Yeah.
+
+[2:44] Well, my uh spandex uh underwear says so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but like are you good enough, or do you have my show, Peter? Do you have to pre-perf everything so that it rips off properly? That's a trick.
+
+[2:55] Like if you're if you're got the real muscles, you don't need to pre-perf your clothing to rip it off. It just rips off. Me, I have to put snaps up the side of my pants to get that to work. I like the image of Hollywood Hogan before each match, like meticulously like snipping out little pre you know, pre-perf in his shirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:10] I've got to get this right. Gotta rip exactly the right places. Um, Peter, you uh and Dave, you will enjoy this story about Nastasia Lopez that she doesn't even know I'm gonna tell you. Oh, juicy. Getting ready.
+
+[3:23] Yeah, yeah. So check this out. So, like, there was a business, was a business called the name of the business. First of all, as listeners of this show will know, somehow, if you ended up at this podcast and don't know what's going on, like I'm sorry for you. Yeah, apologies.
+
+[3:38] Yeah, but uh Nastasia and Mark Ladner opened a quick service pasta restaurant called Pasta Flyer, where my son happens to be working at this very moment. He's rolling meatballs. Oh, well, the apropos of the story. Did we tell the story? Did we tell the story about uh when he had to peel the garlic?
+
+[3:58] And he started crying. And he started crying and like and like you know, like jabbering in Spanish about how he hated peeling the garlic, and he thought that like the whole restaurant was only gonna do one quart of garlic. So then as soon as he finished that court, he was like, I'm done. Someone was like, shaboom, gave him the next court, and he's like, apparently to the merriment of everyone around him. Yes.
+
+[4:21] Um, anyways. So I walked by, and so like on the same, literally the same block was another startup Italian quick serve concept called meatball obsession. PS meatball obsession. It says home of meatball in a cup. I didn't realize, first of all, this was a phenomenon that it could be a home of, but let's just say, right?
+
+[4:44] Meatball and a cup phenomenon. Anyway, unfortunately for them, they they closed, but Nastasia, low quality individual that she is. How do you know it was me? Oh, come on. So I'm walking past there today on the way uh up from the bar.
+
+[4:58] More on that later. I'm walking on my way up to the thing. And for the like, what's funny is is that people on the street might think this is genuine. Only you true listeners of cooking issues will know where this comes from. There's a pasta flyer notice plastered like like like a band, like like a band is coming to play at Webster Hall.
+
+[5:18] There's a freaking plasters of pasta flyer notices, and here's what it says. We miss our neighbors too. Need meatballs? Come to Pasta Flyer. Deep.
+
+[5:36] Deep. Oh man. Meanwhile, the attack. And he's like, unless it's nice. And I was like, okay.
+
+[5:43] And so. Yeah, Nastassi, I guess in her mind, she's like, obviously, not obsessed with meatballs enough. Obviously not enough. So Nastasia is the kind of person who goes looking for a new apartment in the obituaries. Oh, hey, look.
+
+[5:56] I gotta be honest, when I have a new wardrobe. That's how I got into the Manhattan. That's how I was able to purchase an apartment in Manhattan was literally posted looking for dead people and found one. Jackals. Oh of you.
+
+[6:10] A whole lot of you. Well, look, here's the thing. There's only so many slots here in Manhattan. And you know what? One of the ways you get one of those slots is somebody dies.
+
+[6:21] We all do it. Yeah, it's a circle of life. Yeah, it's the circle of rent. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:26] It's like or you know, whatever. Yeah, so we I would love to stumble on a dead person's Manhattan apartment. Well, so here's how it works. Here's how it works. What you have to do is you have to find a neighborhood that is uh in transition, right?
+
+[6:39] So like a family-style neighborhood where an entire because a lot of neighborhoods in Man in Manhattan, all of New York, are built up around communities. And the community grows up, lives, and dies in that community. A lot of times, though, the children from a particular generation will start moving to a new community. This is like the succession of neighborhoods, which Peter actually, you could talk about if you want how that affects food and food and culture. It's one of the major aspects of New York City life.
+
+[7:05] Is how these communities can move typically from lower Manhattan areas or in you know, in specific now hot spots in Brooklyn and Queens, and then they radiate to different neighborhoods as they become more affluent, etc. etc. Dave's like updating the power broker on the spot for us. Anywho, so my whole neighborhood uh changed, uh, and all of who used to live in in my neighborhood in lower Manhattan has moved to Williamsburg. Uh and so when that when the parents of those people die, as they started to do in great numbers in uh in the early 2000s, late 90s, early 2000s up till today, all those apartments come up for sale because none of the kids want to live there.
+
+[7:46] They're all living with their own families in Williamsburg, and so they're for sale and they're not going into the family. And that's how stuff works here. You gotta, you know, find the next neighborhood where you know people have moved elsewhere, and when they die, they're like, Do you want to live in Ma's apartment? No. Just cash out, get the money, we'll split, we'll split it among the three of us.
+
+[8:09] Yeah, thanks, Ma. That's right. That's how that's how it goes. Yeah. Uh meatball obsession.
+
+[8:17] We miss our neighbors too. We miss our neighbors too. And Nastasia all the time is like meep obsession, meatballs meatball obsession. So, can we take a moment to congratulate Dave on the opening and the conditions? We are finally open.
+
+[8:34] Finally open. I I that was the most asymptotic bar opening. No, you know what? Well, it's anticipated. Well, the the assumption there is we would never actually open it.
+
+[8:46] Yeah, that was my hope. The joke on asymptotic is that you never actually reach it. Yeah. So, like in the limit towards infinity, we open, but that we're going to be able to do that. You're always taking one tiny step closer, but never.
+
+[8:58] I thought the joke was going to be putting the ass back in asymptotic. Oh, somebody should put him on this show. You're welcome. Nice, dude. He is on the show.
+
+[8:59] Oh, I see. That's a good word. Anyway, congrats. And uh for what it's worth, I mean, I went on Friday and it was amazing. That's a lie.
+
+[9:15] Peter Peter is a good friend. Peter is a good friend. Unlike Nastasia, Peter's a good friend. You did go on Friday. It was not amazing.
+
+[9:23] Yes, it was. Really? The drinks were amazing. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
+
+[9:28] Yeah. People. People, let's talk about this. People. People.
+
+[9:32] Friends and family. If if you're doing a restaurant or a bar, please. Like uh, friends and family is so important. Our ticket times were ridiculous. Like the ticket times were just bonkers.
+
+[9:47] Our POS system wasn't up and running. Um, yeah, so the the first day of Friends and Family, I can't believe we only did two days of friends and family. I would like to do more. Look, everything's a a mix, right? It took us so long to open, as Peter said, Asymptotic opening.
+
+[10:01] Oh, you'll enjoy this. I'll tell you after. But like Asymptotic opening, um, it took so long to open, and we're burning through like personnel and money. Nastasia, you're familiar with this, right? And so and so then you're like, okay, well, how many days of friends and family do you want to do?
+
+[10:18] Because then you're burning through wages, like hard wages, and not just like prep wages, hard wages and product. I brought my own. Wow. Really? You brought your own wine?
+
+[10:31] Oh my god. For day two. That's the worst. You know what? It's like almost like saved new product.
+
+[10:38] It's almost like maybe everybody should have done that. Come to see conditions with their own wine. Yeah, yeah. The Corkish fee is I hit you over the head with a bottle. Exactly.
+
+[10:47] But the uh the thing about it is uh I think if Nastasia was like like a normal civil person, no one would know what to do. You know, like if she if she literally on Friday, she came in and ordered wine and so beat the server down that he wrung it in even though we had no wine in the building. Wow. Because our wine order didn't come until yesterday morning. She also heard, oh, kitchen slammed.
+
+[11:20] We'll have one of everything, please. I know. Oh, I came to the table and she's like, What'd you get? She's like, one of everything. I'm like, you would.
+
+[11:27] You would. Well, because I knew it wasn't all gonna come, they were gonna forget, so we were gonna get some. Which is Oh, so you take the kitchen down with tickets? No. Yeah.
+
+[11:37] The kitchen like anyway, the point also is is that in friends and family, it's harder because in a b in a in a restaurant, the assumption is everyone's gonna have a full meal, so people order stuff, the kitchen's prepared for that. At the bar, the assumption is you're only gonna do about 25% of your sales in food. But in a friends and family, people over order food. So the food ticket times get, you know, get you know, we we we we soaked the kitchen in blood and then wrung it out that night. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:06] In terms of like just slamming it. And um compared to the first night where people were actually spending money there, like it was a lot smoother, a lot smoother. But anyway, but also, you know, we spent so much time doing our like, you know, cold wells and cold plates and carbonation and all that like Rasimal Tasmal stuff, that you know, it's it was hard for us to fit in like the normal staff training. Like here's how here's how the ticket prints, you know, here's how the all the stuff and all that stuff's super important. Your POS goes down, which you know, point of service, which also stands for the I just always in my head when I say POS, I'm thinking Yeah, pieces, you know, sack of Shivo.
+
+[12:47] And I'm like, you know, the It's like if that thing goes down, your the customer experience is totally ruined, and they don't know. They don't know why. You know, like if you've never worked in a restaurant before or never had to use a POS system before. And when you hear our POS is down, you're like, what does that mean? I don't care.
+
+[13:05] I don't care. Like, you know what I mean? But like, or you're like, why can't you, why can't you put $15 on mine and 3285 on on his? Come on, man. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:16] It's like, you know how many buttons I have to push and like thingamadoodles I have to do, and then I have to keep PLS's are a pain in the butt, right, Nastas? Mark won't even use it. Yeah, lucky. That's how I was at Booker and Dax. Now I I have to work, dude.
+
+[13:29] I have had to for the past like three nights, I've had to work the floor at the at existing conditions. I hate working the floor. I thought I told you we were gonna do it. Yeah, right. I was like, hey, order order something or don't.
+
+[13:46] It's all the same to me. No, I can go back into that mode. Yeah. I was I was amused to see you uh in front of house. Oh my god.
+
+[13:55] Yeah, not a natural fit for you, man. I feel unsafe. It's like it's this is like a whole thing, like, you know, like hanging out in a kitchen, I feel safe. Hanging out behind the bar, I feel safe. But uh front of house is all about small talk, man.
+
+[14:08] Or like you do small talk. Or it's like it's like it's like you're like, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, and then like eh, it just it's a nightmare. I just feel completely I detest it. Can you instruct your servers to never use we?
+
+[14:22] That well, they have they didn't say we no no they never came up, but it's just a little bit more. Oh, we had that conversation. What are we asking? How are we doing today? We enjoying this.
+
+[14:32] No, that's not allowed. That's not allowed as it's either we're like you are taking our order. No, but like we we the rest we the restaurant or the we the bar prepare something in a certain way. That's fine. That's right, yes.
+
+[14:46] Yeah, yeah. But we including people at the table plus the server is but it is true that I am eating half of your food on the way out. I mean that's just you know, yeah, that's just true. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah.
+
+[15:00] Uh so yesterday, get this, get this. So you're also totally beholden to the the your POS system because there is no like the POS system now, because we're not in the days of writing things on pieces of paper and yelling them at the at the bartenders or yelling them at the cooks to call the orders in. The POS system is literally how the the bartender or the chef is told to cook your cook or make your product, right? So if it takes you a long time, there's a problem with the POS, your stuff doesn't even start getting made until the stuff at the POS system is ironed out. So it's like adding a huge amount to the ticket time.
+
+[15:40] We're aloha. We're we're ironing the stuff out. But yesterday I think that's what they use here. Alooha. They tried switching to square for a couple weeks and it was like a dismal failure.
+
+[15:51] Apparently, like square is one of those things where it like works for 35 seconds. People are like, oh, why doesn't everyone use this? Ah you know, because it breaks. That's all anybody was talking about here for weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:59] Because once it breaks, your toast. So yesterday, for some reason, Aloha was like, you know what? Let's wait and see how this whole bar thing works, whether this is gonna work out or not. Yeah, before, you know, we let you, I don't know, charge credit cards. Like, maybe you should be a cash-only business until like, you know, we let you process credit cards.
+
+[16:21] You know what I mean? So we're like, oh crap. So we had to do what's called offline processing. So for those of you that don't know, if the internet's if the series of tubes known as the internet's goes down, you have to process the credit cards offline, and then everything has to be reconciled within 24 hours, right? So otherwise the person who you charge can be like, I don't remember going to that bar.
+
+[16:42] You know what I mean? And then you're out all the money. So what happens is is like we're like, okay, okay, okay, okay. This thing's gonna be working within 24 hours. We're gonna swipe offline.
+
+[16:50] And when you swipe offline, by the way, you have to press the button like 85 times. Tell a manager, tell a manager that your system doesn't work. Yeah, no crap. Every time I swipe it, the manager tell the manager, I am the goddamn manager. You am the manager, yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:03] You know what I mean? And it's like, anyway, so like we're swiping it in, and then Aloha was like, Aloha was like, you know what? This charge is more than a hundred dollars. Maybe it's a fraud, and then it was declining all of the offline charges over a hundred dollars. So all the four tops, like anyone that was like, you know, having more food or or beverage at their party over a hundred dollars, and it was just balancing them.
+
+[17:31] So we were running people's cards four and five times. That's and they don't understand POS, so that's super embarrassing for the guest, right? So, like you're coming, you're paying, and like all your credit cards are getting declined. You think maybe this is like some sort of like you know, a movie situation where your identity's been stolen, or like Glenn Close is gonna come murder you or kill a rabbit or something. Oh my gosh.
+
+[17:50] And it's like you're like, and so like it's super embarrassing. So after the fourth time, we were just being like, it's on us, we're really apologize, come back again, and then we had to give them the yeah, our comps were banana llamas because the but would it run the the ticket even without processing? Yeah, because we run the ticket beforehand and then we close it at the end, and then it declines it, so we hit comp it up. So, like Don runs like you know, basically through the jumps through the window outside so he can get on the on the uh on the phone. They've thankfully picked up the phone and they're like, oh yeah, has to be on a hundred dollars.
+
+[18:26] So then this is the idiots we looked like. We had to sit there and split everyone's check up into sub 100 increments and run their card like four or five times, and then you're at the table, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So, did you charge me like 23 times? And we're like, Yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh yeah, I'm sorry, the POS doesn't work, we're Jamokes, you know what I mean? It's like it's a whole thing.
+
+[18:50] It's a whole thing. Oh, geez. And nobody likes for their check. Look, as soon as they ask for the check, they want it to be quick, smooth, and clean. That's all people want.
+
+[19:00] They got clean, they want to get out. You know what I mean? Ugh. So what why is it that it you had to go under 100? Is that at that setting?
+
+[19:10] Set that way, you know what I mean? And that's not something we can change or knew about. That's a feature crazy do you have the number and all that stuff to call the emergency number? Don has it. Don's going to tell us the cocktail.
+
+[19:23] So if any of you want to see a real, a real poop storm. Oh man. Peter, we should go back. Yeah, come like next Monday or Tuesday night I can help you serve Dave let's go and just cause trouble come and cause trouble no Nastasia imagine Nastasi's I'm a great server oh Nastasia is the worst at understanding what she's good and bad at all right then I shouldn't be teaching your son anything I guess that's what I said I didn't say I didn't say you're bad at everything I didn't say you're bad at everything I said that like okay here's another story I told this many times on the air Nastasia comes up to me Dave I'm really good at darts I'm like Nastasia greatest hits yeah I'll say it I'm like it's the classic thing people can understand right away she has no sense of whether she's like she thinks she's good at certain things if I care you know that if I care I do well you seem to you seem to care enough about darts you didn't talk to me for like three days after that the dart incident that was our she's like you barely beat me I was like yeah but I also suck that's when you gave me my review what yeah that's the day that like I irritated your friend oh yeah yeah right yeah yeah didn't say goodbye Nastasi was so mean he was like he didn't not say goodbye he just doesn't know you exist he didn't oh yeah yeah way back in the day he just doesn't think you're worth the air that you read he's like he's like he didn't even know you were here it's like it's like you know by the way heritage radio as a as a uh a bar warming gift has gotten uh gotten us a fern a fern, because it's a low level plant that is planted in a replica of the heritage Radio container Studio. Super cute.
+
+[21:09] It's adorable yeah we keep ours. Oh wait, we don't have one. Zing. Anyway. Are you want to take a cough?
+
+[21:23] Yeah, sure. Caller you're on the air. Hey Dave and the crew. How are you doing? How you doing?
+
+[21:28] Oh well, this is AJ from Charleston, South Carolina. I came across something new the other day I wanted to ask you about. Um carbonated salsa. Okay. You heard of?
+
+[21:36] No. Uh I had a jar of paste salsa verde um in my fridge, and it was well within its expiration date, but it had been open for about a month. Um and when I opened it up, I didn't hear any like fizzing or anything, but according to the dish, everything seemed normal when I tasted it. It had a light alcohol taste, right? Um, and when I looked at it had the actual bubbles coming up, and then as I ate it again, the um alcohol was had like that bite of carbonation.
+
+[22:04] So it was actually pretty like dense. Um so first off, I wanted to ask if this is something you would think is safe. And I did have two bites of it um before deciding maybe I should think about this. Um it tasted um actually better. I liked it that way.
+
+[22:20] Yeah. Uh wait, so now uh your phone cut a little bit out. You so it had been opened and then put back in your fridge. Yes. So it had been opened in the refrigerator for about one month.
+
+[22:30] Well, I'm surprised that the uh paste corporation doesn't put um benzoid or some sort of stabilizer in it to prevent yeast from going. Was it did it taste more yeast or does it taste more lactic acid? Uh more lactic acid. Yeah. So I'm surprised that uh I'm surprised they didn't put something to stabilize it in, but I mean I guess kind of kudos.
+
+[22:52] I years ago I did a uh fermented salsa where I uh did a lactic acid pickling of the tomatoes and they got like a little a little fizzy and then used that to make a salsa and I thought it was delicious. I loved it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it was really tasty.
+
+[23:09] Yeah, I thought it was really, really good. I've never seen it sold in a store. Uh but look, you're I uh at that acidity at the acidity level of tomatoes, um, you know, most salsas are fairly acidic. Uh anything that grows in that and they're also, you know, somewhat salty, ain't none of that stuff gonna kill you. So if you like the taste of it, I mean I'd say go for it.
+
+[23:31] Unless it was moldy. Mul you know, mouth. No, it wasn't. Always check for that. I don't think uh I don't think the stuff that's growing in that is gonna harm you any.
+
+[23:39] In other words, I'm uh not I'm not a a uh a food safety microbiology expert, but at my house, if I like the taste of it, I'd eat it. Gotcha. And then to go along with that, is there a reliable way you think to repeat that? Um, just like on its own, or do you think if I wanted to actually do that, I should dope it with some um uh cultures or lactic acid or whatever to simulate that again. Yeah, the latter.
+
+[24:04] I would uh you could like if you have any a good way to get like uh I mean obviously every medium's a little bit different, but like before if I want to kick start something, if I have some sauerkraut, some like un unpasteurized like live sauerkraut in my or whatever in your kitchen that you like, uh you could like dope a little bit in just to get it started. Although a lot of times th those cultures are in pretty bad shape by the time you're they're in your fridge 'cause they're not like hyperactive. But it's probably better than nothing, you know what I mean? Okay. Yeah, or if I start some fresh sauerkraut and then uh just add some in next time I'd bake it.
+
+[24:39] Yeah. I mean well, the one thing that I would say is that um salsa salt levels aren't like as high usually as kraut, so I don't know how stable a lactic versus other like stuff you're gonna get in it. You might get other ancillary stuff, but as long as lactic takes over, I don't think you're gonna have anything um from a health perspective negative growing in it. You might have off flavors in it, but I don't think you're gonna have anything that'll you know take you take you or your family out. Okay, so if I go by my senses, I can trial and error and try to maybe make it again.
+
+[25:13] I mean, someone on the uh, you know, Dave, uh see whether anyone out there disagrees with me on the on the thing, but tomatoes specifically are high acid, and in salsa you're also typically adding more acid in the form of lime and salt. Um I don't particularly think the the chilies are gonna have or or the or the alliums are gonna have any major, I mean I have some, but major bacteriostatic effect on it, although I know that alliums do have some bactericidal stuff, but I don't think enough to um trust to stabilize your your product. Um so, but I mean they're a minor component. I would say it's mainly tomatoes, acidic, and salt, good, and you know, lime, good. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:00] So I'd say I would eat it. If it tastes good, I would eat it. Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your help and still enjoying the show after years.
+
+[26:08] Thanks. So thanks for thanks for listening. Not me, I'm gonna disillusion. Yeah, have a good one, guys. Bye bye.
+
+[26:14] You know what? Your dietary choices. What was it? What? I can't remember what it was.
+
+[26:23] Well, it's choices? By the way, I'm a little loopy today, so if I answer things crazy, I'm uh don't have very much sleep. This is an opportune time. Oh yeah. Oh, me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[26:33] I'm not me, me, me. This is the sound. Nastasia. When I combat the Dave about, oh, I've been working so hard. I didn't say I was working hard.
+
+[26:41] I didn't say I was working hard. I've been I've been I've been watching Westworld. I've been watching Westworld. I haven't been working, just Westworld. I'm kidding.
+
+[26:52] You guys suck. I one point I at one point I think I I sent you the beaker video. Yeah, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. So good. Me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[27:01] So uh, see Nastasia, I'm like, oh Nastasia only got two hours of sleep. Oh, must be nice. Yes, that's right. That's the classic old school chef thing. Yeah.
+
+[27:10] You're like, oh my god, I pulled a I pulled 14 hours. I'm always doing worse than you. Must be nice. Half day. Yeah.
+
+[27:22] Oh, we're the worst people in the world. We really are. It's like this is one of the things that needs to go away. It's like we're talking about like hiring uh hiring host patients. We really have to staff up.
+
+[27:31] We're understaffed. We thought we could pull it off with fewer staff. And there, you know, look, when you're when you're when a large portion of your staff is in the tip pool, it's not so much saving the house money that's the most important, although obviously house wants to save money, but you don't want to water the tip pool down too much because then it's not good for your crew and you can't get the same caliber of people to stay because they don't get the same take home. Anyway, uh I don't know where I got so so you need marking. Oh yeah.
+
+[27:59] Oh yeah. Uh they're they're they're they're in the in the process of of uh of staffing up now. I don't know where I even started with that. I don't even know what I don't even know how I got into that. That's how that's how that's how I didn't.
+
+[28:07] But the um me, me, me, me, me. Yeah, yeah. Alright, let's take a quick break so you can like recover a little bit. Alright, hold on a second. So Nastasia though.
+
+[28:15] Oh boy. So the thing that the thing about the thing about the thing about it is is that you already told the meatball story. This is what uh jerks, jerks, jerk, jerk, eat antelope, poop, and die, jerk. That's another Wesley Rose quote, like slightly uh slightly made nicer. Um but honestly, it's such a in a way, like hard business.
+
+[28:37] We were talking about hiring the host, and we're like, what is a living wage for someone? Like this person, typically the host is not in the tip pool, right? Uh for a lot of places, they're not in the tip pool, although Booker and Dax they were in the tip pool. But like, how much like they need to be like a smart, friendly, like, you know, well dressed person. Like, what is that require?
+
+[28:56] They have to live in New York. It's crazy. I don't know how like, you know, I don't know the whole industry doesn't. I don't know how it works. The industry doesn't work.
+
+[29:02] And that's how you get this dumb stuff where someone's like, and and like the mess all those messed up things is that like we're all all on the clock, so now we must be paying OT out of our ears. I don't know what it is. But it's like it's like back in the old days when people weren't following any labor laws or anything like that, especially on the cook side, right? Or side people's like, yeah, they're literally beat each other into the ground and make fun of each other for being reasonable. And it's not cool.
+
+[29:27] But on the other hand, like you can't charge more for what you're doing because like the market is what the market is, and it's one of the things about the industry that I don't know when push comes to shove, how it how it's gonna sort out. Like, I just don't know how it's I don't know how it's gonna work on a on a fine dining or a like high-end bar or any of this where service is important, like how can you make it work without just grinding people into the earth? Is it just that the rents are too damn high? Yeah. Uh are you a member of the rent is too Damn high Party?
+
+[29:58] By the way, people who've never been to New York, there's literally a political party here called the rent is too damn high. Because honestly, I mean, that's like the one thing you could I don't know. I mean, because yeah, I don't know where the breaking point is. Yeah. Restaurant owners are not making money, staff are not being paid anything.
+
+[30:13] Customers are unhappy with how much they're paying. Well, the restaurant owners, I think, like if you get it, I mean, like, I think it really depends. I think the problem is that you try to staff up to do a good job, and it's labor that eats through your your budget. So if you if you can, that's why bars are so genius, because a lot of the labor pools in the tip, which is slightly cheaper for us to run, and your margins are better. So bars are a lot easier, I think, than restaurants.
+
+[30:37] I think people overestimate, you know, on restaurants, how much you know, money you can actually extract out of that business. That's why the old jokes is you you want to make you want to make a small pile of money, start with a bigger pile of money and open a restaurant. You know what I mean? Like uh I've heard that a million times. Oh, I know, it's yeah, whatever.
+
+[30:58] But like um, I mean, bars are bars are are easier, but I mean, a lot easier. You can if you get your numbers right. It's all about getting your it's all about getting your numbers right. All right, we'll take a break, Dave. Come back, I'll recompose myself, we'll come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[31:22] So I got some uh I got some steel cut oats from uh Bob's Red Mill. Uh those of you who are in the Cincinnati area might call that uh I get what do they call that? Pinhead oats, I think. And what I like about them, any kind of c uh cracked grain cooking, right? So you think about your grits, your steel cut oats.
+
+[31:38] What's nice about them when they cook up is they retain uh their grain texture, but because they're cracked, they also get a nice kind of porridgey uh texture. So if you if you like grits, right, uh you will like this the the stone cut uh oats. Now, what I was doing, what's really interesting to me, first of all, I'm a lazy sucker, so I like I like to put them in a in a rice cooker. I make the stuff in a rice cooker. You gotta be a little bit careful with oats because even more so than other grains like uh corn, oats tend to really boil up in your rice cooker.
+
+[32:07] So it's when it boils up, it's gonna hit the the roof of your rice cooker. But for those of you that have a brain and like scrapple, scrapple is delicious, right? But East Coast scrapple is is usually corn, buckwheat, some other stuff, right, mixed up with kind of pork trimmings and pork offal, right? And cooked into a block and then uh set and then cut and then you fry it up. It's delicious.
+
+[32:30] But in the in it more in the middle of the country, they make a product called goeta, and goetta is scrapple made with steel cut oats. Now, you can do a quick, easy version of goeta with Bob's Red Mill uh steel cut oats by making your favorite kind of meat stock, reinforcing it with whatever meat you want. You don't have to be traditional, anything you like. You can use sausage, you can use uh you know, pork hawks, whatever, cook that down in your broth a little bit, and then in your rice cooker, your slow cooker, make the steel cut oats with uh make the steel cut oats with that broth that you have, right? Make sure it's nice if it's a nice kind of gelatinous broth because it's gonna help it set up later.
+
+[33:07] Make sure to cook it enough to cook enough water off. That's the secret of kind of large grain cooking is making sure you add enough water and making sure that as you cook it down, you cook it so that the inside is fully cooked and the moisture level is low enough when you're done that it's gonna set back into a solid block. Right after it's done cooking, you can stir in the meat that you've already, you know, pre-cooked off, set it into a block, cut it and fry it. Go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking25. That's one word, all caps, cooking25, with the number two and the number five for 25% off your order.
+
+[33:44] Yeah, and we're back. So Dave. Yeah, that was the never ending story. Dave, Dave, Dave. Turns out I give more cooking advice in the commercial than on the show.
+
+[33:54] Yeah. So uh Peter Kim, by the way, pointing out what a low quality individual I am, says, you know, that I came into the studio, said, How are you doing, and immediately put on the headphones because as Peter was responding, and for me, you know, I'm like, oh wow, Dave's asking how I'm doing for the first time in years. Well, you asked Dave. I'm I'm actually, you know, I'm I'm fine. And uh headphones on.
+
+[34:20] I can't hear you. Trying to talk to you with my headphones on. Jerk. So uh there was a famous homeless guy in New Haven in the late 80s, early 90s called the how you doing guy. So maybe I'm like him.
+
+[34:33] That was what he was like, it was like a mantra with him. He's like, How you doing, how you doing, how you doing? So maybe on the how you on the new how you can. But I like I said to Dave, at least leave open the possibility of hearing the response to how you doing. That's what I say.
+
+[34:45] That's the rule. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And you don't have to laugh for stand-up comics.
+
+[34:49] So uh talking about the story. Do you know that we've had that argument at the bar, at not at my bar, but at other people's bars so many times, and there's always a split among whether you whether there is a social obligation to at least look mildly entertained when you're watching a stand-up comedian. Show it, Dave. That's all it takes, Peter. I gotta take a photo.
+
+[35:16] That's all it takes. That's all it takes. So I was just telling Dave that I was up in uh Quebec and Montreal. And I was asking what he thought about Montreal style bagels. And I used what Peter did to uh obliterate a college student once, and they're like, they took Peter out to dinner, and they're like, How do you like your dinner?
+
+[35:35] And his response was no no no. They said this is the best restaurant in our town. We're so proud of our food. And what do you think of it? And he goes, overcooked and under seasoned.
+
+[35:44] Classic. And then the kid on the other side goes, so how do you get into this business? He's like, don't. Took a long drag on his cigarette. Yeah.
+
+[35:58] And then crushed it out in the kid's eye. He's like, he's like, I don't I don't sense you have the moxie. I was like, well, what if well, what do you want to do in the industry? He's like, I just would like to cook at NOMA or something like that. That's true.
+
+[36:13] That is true to say that. Come on. Oh, I won't even repeat what the chef, Chris Lee, said to someone in the kitchen. No, it's a food show. No, it was not appropriate.
+
+[36:28] And it should not be the kind of thing that's said to people in the kitchens. But it was the equivalent of, well, I can't even actually. So anyway, Montreal bagels, overcooked and underseasoned. Yeah, why add salt. Under seasoned in particular.
+
+[36:40] What's the deal with the no salt? By the way, people, people, people. If you own some sort of bagel chain, I was at a bagel chain. I won't like throw them under the bus because while there is while there's life, there's hope. Right?
+
+[36:53] You can change. Yeah. Don't put salt, you know, rock, rock salt, bagel, bagel salt, pretzel salt, on their everything bagels. Yeah. The hell is that?
+
+[37:03] Yeah. Everything includes salt. It also includes, you know, dirt and and you know, stars and everything. But like everything in bagel sense means the onion crap, the garlic crack, the sesame crap, the poppies, and salt. Salt.
+
+[37:21] Like clearly. Yes. So if you don't salt your everything bagel. And do it on both top and bottom of the bagel. Well, that's interesting.
+
+[37:30] I like to have on an everything I like top and bottom, but if I eat a salt bagel, which is what when I was a kid was my favorite bagel, I like the fact that one side's a little less salty. Right. I want some salt. I think for everything though, top and bottom. But I don't understand, I just don't understand the Montreal bagel with no salt.
+
+[37:49] Although I will say, bizarrely, probably my favorite bagel in New York City is a Montreal bagel, but made in New York City. Well, they're I like black seed bagels a lot. They add salt. They add salt. But they cook it like in the wood oven, like in Montreal, which I think it's a good combo.
+
+[38:02] Yeah, I have never eaten a bagel in Montreal. I haven't been in probably 20 years, and I didn't have bagels the last time I was there. How was Montreal? How was the food? Food is amazing, man.
+
+[38:10] Food is absolutely amazing. And we arrived at this really short two like four-week season of this berry called the Camarese berry. I don't know if you heard about this. No. What's it related to?
+
+[38:20] Uh it looks like a blueberry, but the inside doesn't look like a blueberry. It's sort of an elongated elongated blueberry, and the inside has like a lot of little small seeds in it. And it tastes like a blueberry, but crossed with like a blackberry and a raspberry. And it's really soft. Oh.
+
+[38:36] A blueberry is an actual berry, and a raspberry is a multiple aikene. So which is it? But I'm telling you that it tastes, but I can tell you that it tastes like both that and the other thing, even though they're both not berries. Kid, you're a punk. You're never gonna make it to Noma.
+
+[38:56] Although, to be fair, that was the day that Peter walked in on you. Oh god, we're not talking about dinner on you doing what? The best. The best day. I actually look just like the single best day.
+
+[39:19] She nearly peed herself out. First of all, first of all, I'll give you look, if if people who have actually listened to, God help you, but people who've listened to the like all of the episodes of this show have heard the story probably at least twice. I'll give you the very quick synopsis. We're going up to give a talk, the three of us, museum-related talk. Uh, and on the way up, Peter Kim.
+
+[39:40] Dave drove Peter Kim, yeah. Peter Kim is in the back, like trying to say he's on an important call to a newspaper that's the equivalent of the penny saver. I'm just building it up. And so Nastasi and I start making fun of him for doing this long interview that he was real bent about with the with the penny saver, which is like you know, like Craigslist on paper. Irrelevant to the story.
+
+[40:01] No, no, I'm just building it up. Then Peter Kim buys an egg salad sandwich at a gas station. A fine choice. And thought that the green was somehow green eggs and ham food coloring instead of the mold. That he was eating eating on the way up, and he's like, What?
+
+[40:16] You don't eat like well. Mr. If it tastes good, I'll eat it. Hold up. Not mold.
+
+[40:22] And then, and not at a gas station. They're like, Well, we found this one in the bathroom, so we restocked it. Anyway, so then we go up there and like I'm real tired for whatever reason. Peter and I'm sharing a room. Peter and I sharing a room.
+
+[40:35] And I eat it. Me and Peter, you have your own room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so I go in and I think the door is automatically closing. I need to hit the bathroom because of course I'm driving.
+
+[40:45] So I go in there, my door doesn't automatically close. Nastassi and Peter try to come up. I don't know what the hell the black. Luggage is so I'm like, I so I'm like, but I had both doors open because I ran into the bathroom and the doors open. Oh my god.
+
+[40:59] And so like they come into the thing, and I'm like, and I can see there's a mirror. It's like you can see it's almost like a mirror. So I'm like, I'm like, put the put the suitcase in and close the door. And Peter hears closer. No, Peter said, what did he say?
+
+[41:16] And I said, I think he said closer. No, it's close the door. Close the door. And I thought you were saying closer. Closer.
+
+[41:24] Well, we were walking down the hallway up to your room. We're bringing your luggage or walking up to your room. His hotel room door is open. So a jar. A jar.
+
+[41:35] Open all the way. So we're like, are you okay, Dave? Like, it's not normal to have your hotel room floor wide open. Peter brings the luggage into the bathroom. No, I don't bring it up into the bathroom.
+
+[41:46] Dave's like, and yeah, there was a moment of sheer terror. We locked eyes. And um and then, and then later that evening, Peter was in such a bad state of mind. That's when he crushed those kids at that dinner. Oh, yeah.
+
+[42:07] Peter was like, Oh, now it all makes me bring it up. Never bring it up. No, and Nastasia's on the floor in the hallway. Just I've never seen her so happy as she is right. Right now she's so happy.
+
+[42:18] She's smiling like crazy. All right, right, right. Brandon Brandon writes in. I recently received a bottle of amylase from Modernist Pantry to use with my spins off. However, I'm having a hard time finding recipes and procedures online or in the manual.
+
+[42:30] Could you break down a few of her favorite applications? Thanks. Brandon. No. I have not yet figured out the best thing.
+
+[42:38] Look, here's the problem. Like with Pectanex enzymes, there are multiple different uh pectinase enzymes, but we've pretty much honed in on the most kind of broad spectrum one that does kind of what we need. It's Pectanex Ultra SPL. The issue with amylase, and I'll take a look at Modernist Cuisine, uh Modernists uh website to see which specific one they they're carrying. But the the enzymes that you're using for breaking down amylases are a wide different range of ones.
+
+[43:04] So there's the ones that are typically just used, there's alpha and beta amylase that are used in in brewing, and they take they do different things, right? So in pectinx, you're kind of just chopping pectin up. But even the standard brewing ones, some enzymes cut in the middle of a starch uh molecule, and some start on the ends and break themselves, um, break it down in in units. They they function in different ways, but it's even further complicated by the fact that the assumption with brewing enzymes is that all the starch has been cooked, right? So you're boiling uh sorry, you're you're you're cooking the starch off and then and then converting it.
+
+[43:39] So when you're doing like potatoes or anything like this, when you're brute when you're uh making like vodka or whatnot, you cook the starch, then the amylase enzymes can attack the starch, right? They can't beforehand. So there's all different kinds of amylases that are used at different points. They have different uh tolerances to heat, different requirements for heat. Some of them you need to heat up.
+
+[43:59] So I don't yet have a good recipe, but I have a bunch of different enzymes I'm working with. We're working on it. I don't yet have a good recipe for take this potato, add this enzyme, do this, and it will go clear. I'm first, before I even worry about that, what I'd like to be able to do is knock the starch out of, let's say, oh, I have an apple, but it's got a little starch in it, how do I knock it out? I have carrot juice, it's got a little starch in it, how do I knock it out?
+
+[44:25] I've got, you know, pick your product that has a little starch. Bananas other than Cavendish that aren't ripe, uh, that are ripe. There are there are, for instance, very ripe bananas that still have a fairly high starch content and won't clarify, but because they're different varieties, they just retain residual starch. How do you clarify them? Don't know yet.
+
+[44:42] I'm working on it, but as soon as I know, I will tell you, and uh, hopefully I can work on it, you know, more after the bar's up and running. Um writes in Hello, cooking issues team. Greetings and sending my love from Manila, Philippines. I'm a new fan and listener. Um listening my way up starting from the first episode.
+
+[45:00] I'm currently on episode 10. Uh so apologies if this question has been asked. Oh man, do you have a long, nasty road to home, my friend? 10. Imagine that's like the opposite of having a present to open.
+
+[45:13] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, it's like a it's like a punishment. I once did an art piece where uh it was a remote control and people controlled hitting me in the face with this machine, and I was trying to box it and hit buttons to disable it. So that's how I would win.
+
+[45:31] So you were just having a remote control pad, and you were trying to strike me, a physical human being, with this kind of like, you know, punching robot, and then I would have to like be able to go in and punch it to disable it before you hit me in the face so hard that I quit. That was how it worked. And it was mean. It was like a long pipe with like a like a piece of styrofoam on the end of it that would spin around and just hit me in the face and then a jab thing, right? Uh where the hell am I going with this?
+
+[45:58] I don't know. I don't know. Long road the hoe, watching episode 10. So this is like that. It's like, it's like, it's like you know, hooking yourself up to the punching machine, right?
+
+[46:08] You keep going. Yep. And why did I do that? Why did it, you know, or like the video you made of uh yourself with uh in an elf suit. Yeah, but I wasn't actually getting hit there.
+
+[46:16] I just jumped into a pillow and green screened myself getting wood chipped. I don't know if you know this, Peter, but I did not actually jump into a wood chipper. That was a cartoon wood chipper. Uh for those of you that don't know, you can look, uh I have it on posted somewhere on the YouTube's. It's called What I'm Thinking About, and it's an old video I did.
+
+[46:34] I need to get one with better sound quality and better picture. I found one anyway. That was just basically if you want to know what's going through my head at any one time when I'm staring off in the distance and have kind of a vacant semi-smile on my face. It's just this image of a band playing kind of a repetitive tune and me jumping into a wood chipper over and over and over and over and over again. Anyway, um, so Manila Philippines.
+
+[46:59] Oh, nice! Uh good find. Nice. This is Babe's head. This is completely terrifying.
+
+[47:13] Kill me. Kill me. Kill me. Saturday is gonna be at the bar? What?
+
+[47:18] Jack. Shram? No. What? No.
+
+[47:21] Jack Insley? Jackie Molecules is coming to the bar? Ooh, nice. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley.
+
+[47:28] Wow. You're quick on the board, my friend. I like that. So I'm interested in making a this is back to John and Manila. I'm interested in making a rum cocktail with coconut milk flavored a gelato.
+
+[47:39] Ideally, it would be something like a pina colada. Now I have the pina colado song going through my dang head. If you like pina coladas? Yes, getting don't don't do it. Don't do it.
+
+[47:49] Wait, wait. Is that one of those songs that you think about like you do all the other stupid songs? No, only when someone says pina colado, which people don't say to me. No, like how they eventually end up together. Oh, do they?
+
+[48:02] No. I don't know that I don't know the whole thing. I don't know the whole thing. I just know something making love after midnight. They put an ad out and then they realized that it was husband and wife same ad.
+
+[48:13] Wait, is Nastasia talking to me about a story song? Yes. You know what? I f I must be having a stroke. Like I damaged my neck the other day.
+
+[48:22] You're actually unconscious on the floor of existing editions right now. I'm in Westworld. I'm like, is this real? Is this the is this the future? Is this the past?
+
+[48:29] Yeah. Like, you know, I don't have feeling in my right arm, and Nastasia is talking about a story song. Like life as I know it is is not the same. Anyway. Hell yeah.
+
+[48:39] Rolling Stone, Street Fight Man, G Samp. You just hit G8. If you like King the Coladas. Wow. Days on the board going going on fire on the board.
+
+[48:57] Shorty fire burning on the dance floor. Um, I'm making okay. Uh last one. So uh it's putting gelato in a blender and then shaking it with the juice and booze the best way to prepare it, texture wise. No, just add everything to the dang blender.
+
+[49:10] Why are you blending the gelato and then shaking it? Just put the whole Megilla into the blender. As if you're gonna have a blender at the bar anyway, right? Just put the whole sucker in the blender and do it, right? Do it.
+
+[49:22] Don't you think Stas? Yeah. Do you like smoothie drinks like like uh milkshaky drinks? Here's what I'm gonna say about this. Uh you're gonna have Harold McEed me.
+
+[49:34] What uh okay, Jesus. All right, what are we gonna say, Stas? Go ahead. Sure. Go ahead.
+
+[49:39] I do. Go ahead. I do like it. Go ahead. You do?
+
+[49:41] For real? Some. Here's the problem. I really like your Italiano Stellyano. Oh, that's good.
+
+[49:47] But I'll talk about that. So is putting the gelato in a blender and then shaking it with the juice and booze the best way to prepare it. Well, adding saline solution or rock salt change the texture. Yeah, because if you add that, it'll be real salty, but it'll also melt faster if you add enough. Any other hazards I've not thought of?
+
+[50:01] John, here's what I would do. Look, if you're gonna make a cocktail, you're gonna destroy the texture of the gelato. I'm assuming you're not talking about a float, right? I'm assuming that John's not talking about a float. He's talking about an integrated mixture.
+
+[50:13] When you add alcohol to gelato or ice cream or whatever, like let's say, let's say you were doing like the classic Bailey's milkshake, which you know, that's what Peter, that's what Peter puts down every night to get himself to bed. Feeds the baby the milk and then pounds a giant Bailey milkshake directly out of the blender pitcher. Just like anyway. Daddy's nightcap. Yeah, my God.
+
+[50:38] He's like, oh long, gong Baileys. Anyway, so like if you add the problem with adding too much alcohol to ice cream is it melts it ferociously fast, much faster than adding milk. So you can't use a milkshake recipe and do the same uh thing because the alcohol is going to drastically lower the um uh freeze point of your mixture. So you can it's better in a lot of ways to if you're gonna freeze it anyway, is as Nastasia says the way that we make uh we make our stuff is to just use gelato base, mix in your uh alcohol, freeze that as solid as it gets in a bag, and then whiz it in the blender real quick. That's gonna be your best texture.
+
+[51:20] But if you actually want it to be a milkshaky texture, you're gonna have to um use a real low alcohol content uh because otherwise you're just gonna melt ferociously quickly. Which is why I always look askance at boozy ice cream. And why you just turn into a milkshake and drink it, or just eat the ice cream and then just drink some booze. Eat the ice cream and drink some booze. Yeah.
+
+[51:42] You could do like a root beer float type thing. I like a root beer float. The problem is is like how much foaming it is. It's hard, it's easy at home, but in a restaurant scenario. Remember when we used to do, remember, were you there when we did the uh we did the uh balsamic soda fig ice cream?
+
+[51:58] No float. No, that's it. It was real good, tasted real good. People are like you should make the potato ice cream at the bar. So already we have we like I could do it as a one off, or like when we're doing like fun stuff, I could do it, but you know.
+
+[52:12] Alright, so have it up. Oh, but I next time. Well, Nastasia's gonna think about this. So for I have, don't worry. Do you have stuff to say?
+
+[52:20] No, I'll be better next week. Okay, so Nastasia, Sarah, Sarah is a touring uh musician, wants to know about. I'll tell her this. She had a question about going to culinary school and being a vegetarian. Um, so that the for those of you that you know don't know, when you go to cooking school, you have to um cook a lot of stuff, right?
+
+[52:39] And they teach you to cook meat and and all you know, all this other stuff, and yeah, you are tasting a lot of stuff. We had vegetarians uh who were and you know, pescatarians, vegetarians, and people who had gluten allergies, uh, and you know, there's a variety of people who have different um you know dietary strictures. And yeah, so uh any cooking school worth its salt will make accommodations for you uh based on your dietary strictions. The only thing I will say is is they might be better or worse at it, so it might more or less harm your education, right? So if you if if they're a good school, they will figure out a way to have you have the same kind of experience, especially if you can cook it, right?
+
+[53:24] If you if you don't mind cooking it but just won't eat it. So I definitely say uh you can go do that, but just make how talk to them about it, be very frank, and make sure that they're gonna be honest with you uh about how your experience will be different from the rest of the people's experience. But if you're never going to cook meat again because you're not gonna you're gonna be a vegetarian special, then it doesn't really much matter how good you get at cooking meat, although cooking meat is good practice and cook uh as one of the things that's cooked because there are other you know, the cooking school might not cook other meat-like things enough to give you the experience for for cooking them, other other protein-based things. But I would just have a firm talk. Your other question about uh dealing with sexism in uh the kitchen, Nastasia said she will think more about it, and we'll talk about it more next week.
+
+[54:11] I hope also next week to finally get in touch with Chris Young about the modernist uh the uh uh Chef Steps uh pickling question that we didn't get to from two weeks ago, uh, and more about backyard cooking and uh walk stations and tandoors next week on and Japanese knives from Russell on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[55:07] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. For more information, visit Corin.com. I'm HRN's communications director Kat Johnson with a preview of the next episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup. We're fresh off our trip to Slow Food Nations in Denver, a festival that brought together advocates to discuss the future of food. And this week we're bringing you a special episode inspired by the new Equity, Inclusion, and Justice Manifesto released by Slow Food USA.
+
+[0:31] If we're gonna solve food security, we need to say these people have a right to good healthful food. But we have to do that in a way that kind of insulates this system from the beggaries of the market. Because when you're at a table with somebody, you recognize their humanity. And when somebody cooks for you and serves you food, in a way they're saying they care about your survival. How can we put things into our own hands and have the people of Puerto Rico gain real access to healthy local foods?
+
+[0:56] Listen to Meet and Three this week for our highlights from Slow Food Nations. Available on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:30] How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah, got Dave in the booth. Good. Yeah, good.
+
+[1:33] Good. Yeah. Yeah. Calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:41] Uh, Nastasia, I am decidedly getting old. Yeah. So, like, yeah, I mean, like, you know. You know, age ain't just a number. I was on bike today.
+
+[1:54] I was biking across the bridge. On bike. On bike. I was biking across the bridge. It is hot and nasty outside.
+
+[1:59] I'm wearing, of course, all black because I'm going to the bar after this, and our uniform is all black. I'm going over the Williamsburg Bridge, the wind blowing in my face. That's good at least. Well, no, it's like pushing me hot. Hot wind.
+
+[2:15] Hot wind bl like trying to stop me, acting as an air brake. And I said to myself, you know what? I could use an extra gear on my bike. You're getting old. Because I only have the one gear on my bike.
+
+[2:26] Uh-huh. And I was like, you know, who needs who needs more gears? What do you? What's wrong with you that you can't make it over the bridge with your puny legs? Yeah.
+
+[2:35] And I was going over the bridge. I was like, you know what? I don't have anything to prove. I could use another gear on this thing. So are you gonna put a gear on?
+
+[2:42] No. Uh-huh. No. That would require me to do it. That would require me doing something.
+
+[2:47] Yes. Doing something. You mean like dropping it off at a shop? Whoa, whoa, dropping off a shop. Since when do I have anyone do anything for him?
+
+[2:55] Yeah, yeah, I know. You know? The last time any every time I have somebody do something for me, how does it end up? Not the way you want it. Right, wrong.
+
+[3:05] Here's the thing. I'm okay with like. I'm okay. I'm actually not okay. I'm really cheap as Nastasi knows.
+
+[3:11] But like, if I spent money and like the stuff came back to me like better than I could do it, I'd be like, wow, you know what? That was worth it. But it's rare. It's so rare. Yeah.
+
+[3:21] Nastasia, tell tell me about it. Like when you spend money on other things for your business for a pasta flyer, how often are you like, that was money well spent? That person did an excellent job. It's not the money, it's giving it to somebody to an employee to do, and then you're like, oh my god, I gotta do it over again. Yeah.
+
+[3:38] That's the thing. Yeah. Well, but tell everybody how great my hospitality skills are. Yeah. So Nastasia, by the way, existed existing conditions, the bar has now been existing for uh this is our third week of existence.
+
+[3:56] Uh I took uh a couple hours off on Sunday. Whoa. You don't deserve that. I I did not do that for a while. You you never left.
+
+[4:05] I saw you leave the business. You were here when the business was open. Yeah, no, but I didn't take time off. I was only here. Okay, so I saw my son for two hours on Sunday, and I don't feel bad about it.
+
+[4:18] Literally, it's the only hours that we have been open that I wasn't at the space. Yeah. Like including prep. Okay, talk about my hospitality. Uh okay, okay, okay.
+
+[4:26] Less about me making fun of you and more about me. Uh so like everyone knows that Nastasia is uh uh hates people. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and is mean to people, right, Dave?
+
+[4:42] Uh I mean, yeah, from what I can see. Yeah. I mean, I mean, what I what I'm saying is is that I only see her an hour a week, though. So what I mean is is that her only joy in life is to extract pain from others. Well, that's usually you, so that's not really the full picture.
+
+[4:56] What do you mean? Extracting pain from me? Yeah. Well, it's just because she's around me more. Yeah.
+
+[5:01] You know what anyway. Right, and I'm only around you two together, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, point B. Uh, that, you know, and I've worked with her at many, many, many events. Many, many events, where she is intensely uh uh what's the word?
+
+[5:19] She's like, does not care, but like actively does not care about the welfare of the people at the event. Right? Actively doesn't give a crap whether you enjoy what she's doing or not. Really, beyond could care less about whether you like the cocktail or food or whatever, into I would I was what's the way active indifference, I would say. Yeah, uh, you know, bordering on smoldering hatred.
+
+[5:46] Bordering on hostility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Bordering on hostility. And this has been my experience over the past ten years of how it's gonna be 10 in the next month, and we're gonna effing do something. Yeah, what are you guys doing for your anniversary?
+
+[5:57] I want to go to the champagne lounge at the top of Rockefeller Center. What? Yeah. Oh, yeah, you gotta guys gonna go for dinner and dancing? Uh no.
+
+[6:09] Um yeah, no, it's not gonna happen. Anyway, uh so point being that I was like, Nastasia is terrible at service because in general she is, right? Also, terrible at being a judge of whether she's gonna be good at something, but Nastasia, after going to friends and family, was like, there's no way they're gonna pull out of this in two days because this is such a this is such a poop toss. Yeah. Dave, stop clicking that pen.
+
+[6:34] Yeah. But we did, we didn't know. Already? Wow. Wow.
+
+[6:39] Anyway, uh, so Nastasia, and it pains me to say this, came in and did two shifts on the floor, and she did a good job. A great job. She did a good job. I was happy to have her there. That's so nice.
+
+[6:54] Why just describe how did she do it? First of all, she shows up day one. She there's a lot of things. I mean, look, if if we're gonna if you want me to be negative, because I clearly you do. No, I just wanted to.
+
+[7:04] If she tries to serve someone a cocktail to go. Oh. Like getting rid of our liquor license. No, no, no, bottle cocktail. Because we we give wine, closed wine at our restaurant.
+
+[7:14] You're not allowed to do that. Yeah, we looked it up. We'll we can talk after it. You're definitely not you're not a wine store. And I am definitely not like on Seamless, you can put your beer in the water.
+
+[7:26] If you sell it and you open it and they buy it and they want to take it home and then it's in a closed container. Yeah, no, she's saying it's not been opened. It's not you were definitely not allowed to sell an unopened bottle of wine to somebody. You you can sell you if you if they open the bottle and they want to take the rest home and they cork it and take it home. I think that's fine.
+
+[7:46] But you're just gonna look up the rules. You're definitely not a wine store. If you want a beer with your order, you can we put a beer. Look, I don't know how seamless does like the illegal crap that they do. Like, but the like think about it this way.
+
+[8:02] Are you a wine store? Can you have like just like a shelf of wines and someone walks in and says, Hey, I would like to buy wine from you, and you say, Okay, here is some wine to take to a party. No, you're not allowed to do that. That is what do we illegal in the state of New York. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:20] You can't do it. Anyway. I mean, I would love to do that. There's nothing I would love more than to sell cocktails to people so that they could go drink them on other people's property. But I can't do it.
+
+[8:32] I'm not allowed. Uh, what was the other thing that was hilarious? So she shows up, Dave, you'll appreciate this. She shows up in the you know requisite black uniform. Dress.
+
+[8:42] Dress. Dress is not the uniform, though. Just black. Black dress, yeah. No, not black dress, black.
+
+[8:47] I wore a black dress. You wore a black dress, but that's not the unit, whatever, anyway. It's like, I need a notepad. I had two. They saddled me with two parties, one in a fifteen, one of what your mom was like, you know, 28.
+
+[9:01] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're gonna have to memorize the order. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So she's like, I need a notepad. We're like, fine, okay, notepad.
+
+[9:09] She's like, I'm gonna want both hands free. I'm going back to get a fanny pack. It was a black fanny pack. Literally goes out, shows up, wears a fanny pack. Wait, how does the fanny pack substitute for the notebook?
+
+[9:23] No, no, she can put the notebook hands free. I can carry more things. Oh, because you're wearing a dress and you didn't have pockets. Okay, I gotcha. Yeah.
+
+[9:30] Yeah. Yeah. And then the next day I wore pants and it was fine. Crazy. All right.
+
+[9:36] So uh also, have you ever noticed, Nastasia, that you do a good job on the things you care about in a restaurant, and then the other stuff falls by the wayside. Isn't that true of everything though? Yeah, but what and we see this at events all the time. It's like the things that like impact on the guest experience, you just don't think about because you don't really think about them. Like to this day, three weeks later, there's still no signs on our bathrooms saying what the bathroom is.
+
+[10:05] And so, like, 30 times a day, I'm like, the bathroom's down there. And listen to this, this is the exact language I use. Both of those doors are bathrooms. The one that is uh straight ahead is intensely loud and we don't know how to fix it. Now think about that.
+
+[10:20] How many times have I said to guests, hey, those two things that are unlabeled, which we could easily label? Yeah, yeah. Are bathrooms. And the furthest one has a speaker, which is so loud as to be unpleasant. Probably in some way.
+
+[10:36] I mean, we could just shoot it. Like, I could just, I could just, I could just take a spike and run it straight through that freaking speaker and be done with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like just obliterate it.
+
+[10:46] Just wipe that speaker off the face of the planet. Yeah. But yet I don't because if I have 35 seconds, I'm gonna make more strawberry juice. You know what I mean? It's like it's weird.
+
+[10:57] And like the other one, the one that I do care about is like, and I I looked at the uh there's a table here uh in front of us at Roberta's foretop. Stop with the phone that has an intense wobble to it. It's like super wobbly. Like the table in front of us, every time this lady lifts her elbow, the table moves like an inch. And it makes me so angry to have tables wobble, and yet the floor in our restaurant, in our bar, is so uneven that every table wobbles.
+
+[11:27] And then when you fix it, if they move it like half of an inch, it wobbles again. And do you know how it hurts me inside to see people with wobbly tables? So I tried to move to as many tripods as possible because everybody knows God invented the tripod so that it couldn't wobble. Tripods can't wobble. But what's the problem with the tripod, Nastasia?
+
+[11:49] I don't know what a tripod is. You don't know what a tripod is. You know what a pod, a foot tripod, three feet, three foot in the. Yeah, but what's a tripod table? A table that only has three supports on the ground.
+
+[12:00] Okay. They're inherently stable. Okay, like a tripod. Okay. Because you can't make a three legged thing wobble.
+
+[12:07] Okay, so what's the problem with it? The problem is is that on the side that has uh the one leg sticking out. If you lean on the corner hard, you'll flip the table. Right? So it is stable, but unstable on that side.
+
+[12:22] So here's my idea. You ready for it? You ready? Ready? Okay.
+
+[12:25] So you get a tripod table, and then off of the so the the two, the two sides of the of the bottom of the triangle are towards two corners. And then you have the centerpiece going off towards one side, right? So now you have a big tipping moment there on those two corners that are on that one side. You understand what I'm saying? You see where I'm going, Stas?
+
+[12:46] Okay, okay. Now, off of that tripod, you have little outriggers that come out but don't touch the floor. They hover like an inch above the floor. Normally, sucker won't tip at all. But then if someone's like, I'm gonna get up, and then they press on the side of the table, it'll just move like like a half of an inch until that outrigger hits the floor, and then the table's like, I got you drunk D-Bag.
+
+[13:11] You know what I mean? Yeah. Did somebody flip a table? Oh, not yet, because we didn't have tripod. We don't have many many tripod tables because we're worried about some drunk person flipping the flipping the table.
+
+[13:22] What do you think? Yeah, that's a good idea. Or someone out there, they make these things, Nastassi, called auto-levelers garbage. Garbage. Whoever invented that thing and sold it to people should be taken like out behind the woodshed.
+
+[13:35] Like, you know what I mean? It's like they they just don't work. So yesterday I was on the beach and I was enjoying myself, and then Booker calls me from work. My son Booker. From work.
+
+[13:47] From work. And you know, there's like five managers there. Needed me. And was like by the way, Booker refers to Nastasia Lopez as Roz from Monsters Inc. What?
+
+[13:58] Do you got your papers, Mike Wizaski? It's so hard to be angry when he says that. This is so funny. Um so he calls me and he said, a man just said, You're irritating me, kid, a customer. And he said, It made me really sad.
+
+[14:18] And I was like, it's okay. Old men are mean sometimes. All the time. Yeah. All the time.
+
+[14:24] Yeah. But what about my that makes me sad? I'll tell actually I won't tell Jen. That'll make her sad. Yeah, don't.
+
+[14:29] I'm not gonna tell Jen. So but it's hopefully she never listens to the show. Of course not. Can't imagine why she would. I mean, she hasn't seen me in the past month, so maybe she would listen to it to remember that she has a husband, but like uh other than that, uh, not the way she would want to remember you, though, I would think.
+
+[14:43] What? I'm not being mean. No, I just mean in general. Oh. Uh your cooking issues persona.
+
+[14:49] Like cooking issues. There is no cooking issues persona. Oh, that's true, actually. I'm like this all the time. Anyway, registers?
+
+[14:56] Yep. Anyway, so my favorite booker at work story is this one. Uh Nastasia tells me that first of all, Nastasia to troll me makes Booker need to get to work at 8 a.m. to sell ice cream sandwiches on the street. Even though it guarantees I will never see anyone in my house.
+
+[15:13] Oh, oh. Anyway, so like, so she has him out there selling ice cream sandwiches, and uh Gothamus wrote him up, put a picture of them on the on the internets, which I thought was very nice. And then uh Nastasi's standing next to him texting on her phone, as she does, like for instance, I don't know, on this radio show. And at this very moment. At this very second.
+
+[15:32] Actually, she's not right now. She's just sitting down. I think she's too tired from driving to text her driving. Yeah, she's too zoned out. But um, he goes, Hey, get away from me.
+
+[15:41] You're hurting my business. Uh so proud. So good. Not a boy. I'm like, you know what?
+
+[15:48] You know what, son? Love you. You know what I mean? Yeah. All right.
+
+[15:53] Not a boy. Here we go. Focused on the bottom line. Yeah, we have a question from uh Yvonne. He writes in and uh he goes, I'm a bartender working in London that will be stopping in New York on my way back from Tales.
+
+[16:04] Oh, he's sitting in the restaurant right now. It's the guy in the orange shirt. Yeah. He's like, I've met Dave, meaning me, different times in London Edinburgh. I was wondering if it's possible to attend cooking issues while it's being made.
+
+[16:13] He's right there. I'm waving to him as I'm speaking to him, but he doesn't know. No, he's on the listening live. Oh, how do they do that? I imagine I see headphones in their ears.
+
+[16:23] Oh. It's an experience I would very much value and joy. I don't know if Dave and Nastasi allow this. About what? Like about what?
+
+[16:29] Be here, in here, or out there. I don't know. Anyway, my point being that they brought me some very nice toffee. He remembers that I like to like toffee, Stas? Like English toffee.
+
+[16:43] The hard stuff. You don't have enough of an I mean, it's a delicious candy. Why don't we sell that stuff here? I don't know. Because we have the Werther's originals.
+
+[16:52] That's not the same. Worders original is like not even close to a real English toffee. People, any British style folk out there, why don't we have just like oodles and oodles of traditional British toffee? You know what I'm talking about, Dave? Nope.
+
+[17:11] Oh my god. Do you like caramels? Craft caramels. Do you like them? Yeah, sure.
+
+[17:17] Okay. Imagine if they tasted better and were much harder. Would you like that? Yeah, sure. You guys are the worst.
+
+[17:25] Seriously, if we are. Um. Uh okay. The meatball flyer. Oh, someone wrote in about the meatball flyer.
+
+[17:33] This is Ken. The meatball flyer reminds me of when I was in Brooklyn College in the late 60s and early 70s. There were two barbershops across the street from each other, not far from college. Each charged a buck and a quarter for a haircut. For no reason, one put up a sign saying haircuts 115.
+
+[17:46] Shortly, uh the other sign had haircuts at 110, down, down, down, down to 60 cents. Then the other side, other haircut sign put up uh uh back to a buck 25 and said we repair 60 cent haircuts. It's Canberra. You like that? Can I tell you a finance story real quick?
+
+[18:03] Okay. Uh for those of you that don't know this. I used to be fascinated with the history of robber barons in uh New York, financial robber barons in New York in the 1800s. Real wild west time here when uh it was even easier than it is today to pay off politicians. Wait, before you go on, can you tell your story about Uncle Diamond after this?
+
+[18:21] Which which story about Uncle Diamond? The bank, the money. Oh, I didn't I tell that on air before? No. We should get to some cookings.
+
+[18:28] Look up the uh I you said you sent me the old questions, and you didn't. I don't have the old questions on this, and I don't have my iPads. You look up the old questions and we'll deal with those in a second. But to finish, there's a guy named Jay Gould and Diamond Jim Fisk, who bought the uh Erie Railroad in the 1800s, and it was uh competitor to Commodore Vanderbilt's railroad. Commodore Vanderbilt's railroad eventually became the railroad that comes in and out of Grand Central Station that we use today as Metro North, among other things.
+
+[18:54] Uh so they were shipping cattle uh up the line in boxcars. And so they started to have a price war. They're like, hey, Commodore Vanderbilt was like, I'm gonna run these sons of you know, sons of guns out of business. I'm dropping the price of taking uh, you know, a load of cattle from like I don't know what it was, like ten bucks to like eight bucks. Jay Gould comes back, you know, seven bucks, six bucks, finally it goes down.
+
+[19:18] Vanderbilt's like, I'm shipping any cattle, any cattle, on my railroad for a dollar, a dollar a box cart. Instantly, Jay Gould and Jim Fist put their price back up to what it used to be. And Vanderbilt's like, these sons are gonna be out of business in a week. And I'm gonna take over the railroad. This is how monopolies are supposed to work.
+
+[19:39] This is before monopolies were illegal. Turns out Jay Gould had bought every head of cattle on one end of the line and shipped it for free and made a fortune off of Commodore Vanderbilt's railroad. Boom boom, boom. And that, my friends, is how the robber barons used to do business. Of course, they also crushed the little people.
+
+[20:01] Okay, tell the other story. Which one? Your Uncle Diamond. Which one? The money in the bank with the ants.
+
+[20:06] Oh, geez, this is not cooking related. Just do it. It's good. Okay, okay. You got some cooking questions for me?
+
+[20:10] I forward them to you. Why don't you just read them? I will. Get ready to read them. Okay, so Uncle Diamond, Crazy Uncle Diamond, crazy Uncle Diamond, never had a social security number, never paid taxes in his life, kind of had jobs, uh, was like a kind of a strange kind of a uh, you know, old school, like uh Italian ladies' man, jewelry guy.
+
+[20:30] Uh jewelry guy. So he used to do all of his work off the books because of course he didn't have a social security number and he never paid taxes in his life. So he always lived on the fringes of American society in Boston. And he never had a bank account because in order to have a bank account, you needed to have a social security number, right? So he goes to, he's my stepfather's uncle.
+
+[20:53] He goes to uh the aunts. His one was his sister and the other two were cousins. These three aunts never married anyone. We called them the three, you know, you know, made uh old made aunts. They lived together until they died, until they all died.
+
+[21:05] And they were classic old school, like Italian, unmarried, like you know, they used to cook me like uh a pound of bacon and then fry like a dozen eggs in that pound of bacon and make me eat it all. Like old school, good stuff. Uh and they go, they go, they're like, they're like, he's like, hey aunties, I can't get a bank account. Take my money and put it in the bank account so I can save it up and take a trip to Florida, right? So he's like giving them money, money, money, money, all this money, all this money, putting it in the bank account.
+
+[21:34] Now the aunts also never had a job, so they would constantly steal from Uncle Diamond's safe deposit box, constantly steal from it, steal, steal, steal, until there was like nothing left in Uncle Diamond's safe deposit box. Of course, he doesn't know because it's not in his name. He can't go get the money. So one day, he thinks he has like thousands of dollars in here. He's gonna go have some sort of like, you know, tour it affair in Florida.
+
+[21:57] He's like, hey, Annette, I'm gonna need to go to Florida. Can you go get me my money? And they're like, oh my god, oh my god, there's no more money left in the bank. Oh, geez, oh my god. In the Medford Savings Bank, right?
+
+[22:10] God, God was looking on the aunts that day, and right after Uncle Diamond requested his money that they had diligently stolen, right? There was for the first time in history, a bank robbery of the safe deposit boxes in the Medford Savings Bank, and it was one of the biggest safe deposit heists of all times. Now, here's the kicker. Here's the kicker. The way that the thieves did it is they is they broke into the vault, into the safe deposit vault, and they started taking the safe deposit boxes from the top, pulling them out, dumping the contents, and dropping them on the floor.
+
+[22:50] So everyone on the top half of the safe deposit boxes had everything taken. And everything on the bottom half of the safe deposit boxes on the floor, right? All of their safe deposit boxes were safe because they were covered by the empty safe deposit boxes, and they needed to get out of there, right? So here's the funny part. Guess where Uncle Diamond's safe deposit box was?
+
+[23:10] On the bottom. On the bottom. But he didn't know because he'd never visited it. So the aunts were like, oh diamonds! Oh no, diamond!
+
+[23:17] The safe, it's all gone. It's all gone. So that's how the aunts were saved by the people that robbed the Medford Savings Bank. That's so good. It's good times.
+
+[23:29] Like you only get that lucky once in your life. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Alright, give me some food questions. Uh Japanese knives.
+
+[23:35] Did we do this one? No. Okay. Well, that's convenient since Corin was our sponsor today. Wondering if you could break down recommendations on Japanese knives.
+
+[23:44] I'm in Japan right now and I'm overwhelmed by choices. What sort of style shapes do you use? A higher carbon steel, are higher carbon steels worth the trouble? Thanks, Russ. Okay.
+
+[23:54] So when you're dealing with the everything depends on what you mean by Japanese knife, right? So in general, there mean I haven't been current in a long time. But in general, there are uh by the way, Joel Joel Gargano stopped by with his wife at the at the shape. Anyway, uh, there are three main styles that you want to contend with. Um I guess there are Japanese manufacturers who make traditional Western style knives, but I'm just gonna talk in general.
+
+[24:21] So you got your your Western style knives, which is your Germans, your French style knives, uh, which are both different from each other. Anyway, then you have your Japanese Western knives, uh, which I find actually like they're nice, they have very thin blades. Um I find them a little bit irritating because uh they're they don't have an even bevel on the bottom. Like typically, and maybe they've changed some of the makers now, but typically if you look at a German or a French knife, both sides of the knife are beveled equally, right? So you have the angle that the main blade makes going down, which is very, very, very steep angle, like very steep because they're you know some you know thin.
+
+[25:02] Then at the very edge of the blade where you cut, uh it is a m a much shallower angle, and that's the actual angle of the cutting edge. Now, if you were to cut the knife down the center and look at it, right? On in a German uh or a French knife, both of those bevels on both sides are gonna be the same, i.e., the angle is the same. I find these to be easy to sharpen because you only ever have to remember and find one angle, and your hand can easily just find that angle and do it time and time again because eventually it will sharpen to the angle that you choose. And depending on the quality of the steel, right, you can sharpen at a steeper or steeper angle and therefore have a sharper or sharper edge.
+
+[25:46] The the danger of sharpening too steep, obviously, is that the edge becomes so thin and brittle that it breaks very quickly, and then you can get large chips in your blade and it becomes very problematic. Okay. Uh better steels, better and better steels uh make things better and better, so you can get uh thinner and thinner edges. In addition, old school Japanese knives, right? More on this in a second, have different kinds of steel, so you can have a very um you can have one kind of steel making the the inside of the knife, which gives it kind of toughness, and then you can have a harder steel on the outside, which retains its edge better.
+
+[26:21] Well, whatever. So the in a Japanese Western knife, you have two different, typically, you have two different bevels, right? And that's because they're a hybrid between a Japanese uh knife and a Western knife. I find the two different bevels to be intensely irritating and without any help. Uh, because it just means I have to remember like why why would I want like 15% 15% of the bevel on one side and 85% on the other?
+
+[26:48] Oh, they're also spec'incredibly in an in an incredibly irritating way. So you have in a German or French knife, you just specify the sharpening angle, right? In a Japanese Western knife, you specify the ratio between the two, and you almost never specify. So the bevel's 85% on one side, and you very rarely specify what that angle is, right? Um, you know, 15, 17, 18 degrees, whatever you're you're sharpening to.
+
+[27:16] Anyway, so traditional Japanese, and by the way, Japanese Western knives very can of varying quality, but can be intensely awesome. And most people I know uh rock Japanese Western knives. They love them. I am the outlier in this. Um, and you can also sharpen a Japanese Western knife in the Western style.
+
+[27:35] You can make it into an equal bevel so if you should so choose, because in general the knife blanks are symmetric. Um Japanese Western knives are also typically can be a hybrid between a French shape and uh more traditional Japanese shape, or you can get ones that are more traditionally shaped, like a French knife with the you know, the belly or German knife with the belly and everything. Anyway, traditional Japanese knives are much thicker, so the back of the knife is much, much thicker, much, much thicker. They're heavier and they come down uh in a straight, heavy line, and then abruptly cut in at an angle like a chisel and are sharpened basically 100% on one side of the knife. So they're sharpened like a chisel.
+
+[28:17] I find that they are extremely sharp when they're done well, and they are extremely easy to sharpen. They are much easier to sharpen than a Japanese Western knife, and I find them much easier to touch up than a uh a German or a French style knife. I love them. Now, that said, uh those kinds of knives require uh almost daily uh touch-ups. So like if you're using a traditional Japanese knife, uh I touch it up before I use it every time I use it.
+
+[28:48] Now, do I touch up my Germans and my French every time I use it? No, I touch up my German and my French knives maybe every third or fourth time that I use it. And it's true that it doesn't take me that long to touch up uh a um a German or French knife, but the Japanese knives, traditional Japanese knives, because of the single bevel, it's very easy to tell that you're at the correct angle and that you're touching it up properly, and it sharpens very quickly. So you just take and you make uh the edge on the bevel and then you turn it around and just knock the burr off and the suckers like like razor sharp. I love them.
+
+[29:23] Now, I have only ever owned the uh the regular kind of uh carbon steel easy to stain knives of the traditional Japanese, and I still like them because you I think with a knife like this that you're intended to touch up every time you use it, they're not meant to be low maintenance knives. So to get one that's stainless and to pretend that you're gonna get good qu cutting quality out of it if you're just gonna put it in a drawer and leave it and abuse it and like not touch it up, is not getting the most out of that kind of a knife. So it never bothered me that I didn't have any of the stainless or any of that stuff. I just got a very from Corinne actually, Dave, going back to our sponsor, like uh their like kind of entry-level high quality, uh, because I didn't need all the bells and whistles or like the nicest uh you know, the nicest handle or anything like that, or the nicest saya cover. I got their lowest uh level of high quality uh Japanese traditional knives, and I would go for get a Yanagi because you will regret not having a Yanagi, which is the long slicer.
+
+[30:27] Get a long one. Like, like, why the hell would you want a short slicer? Because the entire point of a Japanese slicing knife, a Yanagi, is that you take your cut in a single draw. One draw. One anyone, anyone who sits there sawing at fish should be punished.
+
+[30:45] I don't know what kind of punishment you would give them. Or tomatoes. Or tomato, right. Well, you don't like to see saw marks in your stuff, right? Nastasia, believe it or not, although she hates many things, does not hate sushi, is a connoisseur of sushi joints here in the city, goes out to sushi joints.
+
+[30:58] I think it's the only thing she and Mark like to do together. I think yeah. Jeez. I mean, that's fair, right? Yeah.
+
+[31:04] So, like, if someone sat there, if you saw like the sushi chef like go back on their stroke with the Yanagi, I mean, you just get up and leave, right? You're like, what the hell's wrong with this person? No? Mm-hmm. Anyways, so uh long, right?
+
+[31:20] Then uh I like uh Adeba. I like it a lot. Uh so that's the shorter one that it has like a like a kind of like a big belly, it's like a fish butchering knife. I use it for a lot of stuff. I like it a lot.
+
+[31:33] I'd get one of those. Uh and if you have the extra money, it's nice to have an Usuba, the vegetable knife, which looks like a cleaver but is not. That's the thing that some jackweed at the French Culinary Institute picked, took mine out of my kit, out of our uh office, which was in a garbage room. It was a garbage room, took mine out of it, use it as a cleaver. Took the entire edge out of it, so it was like looked like it looked like the moon, like like half moons taken out of my edge, then put it back in my kit wet so that it was rusted and ruined.
+
+[32:07] And if I ever find you, I will embed that knife in your forehead. Like, don't why would anyone pick up somebody's knife? Especially a knife they don't know how to use. You know what I mean? Do you just walk out into the street and be like, oh, baby, this is a zip car?
+
+[32:23] I'll take it somewhere. No, you don't. Why would you pick up somebody's knife out of the kit? It's not like I left it on the counter and was like, oh, this person doesn't care. This is look, every kitchen, listen, people who have kitchens, every kitchen should have an assortment, uh, assortment of beaters, right?
+
+[32:41] And like, by the way, when I say beater, I mean beater knives. Everyone should have some beater knives lying around. And if you don't have a knife with you, if you're not like a cook who's brought their own knives or whatever, then you gotta use the beaters, right? And the cutting quality is what the cutting quality is. It's a beater knife.
+
+[32:57] Nobody cares about it. That's why it's called a beater, right? But don't pick up anyone's real freaking knife, right? Uh part of it is on you people. If you don't have beaters in your kitchen, somebody's gonna sneak into your kit and take your knife.
+
+[33:08] But don't ever break into somebody's kit. So evil bastards. Anyways. Uh uh take a break and then take a goal. The reason we don't let people in sit in on the studio randomly if they're in town, is because Heritage is a nonprofit, and we sell the studio time for a lot of money.
+
+[33:27] Well, I think we sell ourselves. I did not know that. If you want to sit in the studio, talk about or ask us about how much it costs. Yeah, money talks. Wait, were you singing some sort of ACDC song?
+
+[33:39] Love me for the Money. It's a good song. Money Talks. Back more. Cooking issues.
+
+[33:54] Today's program is brought to you by Corrin, supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. Corrin is proud of their Japanese culture and traditions, but they want you to know that their products are not just for Japanese restaurants. Their knives and tableware bring out the best qualities of food from every culture and fit into every restaurant, from French to Pan Asian to American. And that is why they're located in New York City, where people from every country in the world come to eat. Corrin's unique store in Lower Manhattan is home to perhaps the most extensive collection of Japanese chef knives in the world, including Japan, plus the rarest natural sharpening stones and exquisitely designed tableware.
+
+[34:35] They also host special events such as knife sharpening demonstrations and parties with New York's most famous chefs and restaurateurs. Corrin is dedicated to this ideal, bringing the implicit and elegance of Japanese culture to your table, be it in your home or in the finest restaurant. For more information, visit Corrin.com. I think I asked you this before, is that the molecules on that? Yeah.
+
+[35:03] Yeah, of course. So uh some molly Jackie Molecules came to the bar the other day. I like the way he says Japanese. Japanese. Uh speaking of which, you know, we use Corrin's wine glasses at at the bar.
+
+[35:12] Oh, that's lovely. Because the cocktail kingdom does not make uh those. Hey, you gotta talk into the mic, Dave. Oh, really? Yeah, there you go.
+
+[35:18] All right. So Stas, what is your n what is your name? We have a color, right? Oh, we have a caller? Yeah, we do.
+
+[35:22] Caller on the air. Hey, how you doing? I'm good, how are you? Good, good. Um, so listen, I wanted to make the flat leaf for a crowd.
+
+[35:33] Sure. Uh and I wanted to see what your I don't know how well the blender modeling goes when you scale it up. Okay, uh, so the flat leaf is when we made the flat leaf, I can't remember whether I used acid OJ in that or whether I used actual sour orange juice in that. We had a said you can do either in the book basically the book says either lime juice or uh acidified OJ. Yeah.
+
+[35:57] So you definitely with the parsley want um OJ, so you can either do acid OJ or you could get sour oranges. At uh Booker and Dax, we put a variant of that on the menu called the parsley situation, which was with actual like Seville oranges, uh and which are sour and delicious and they're not that bitter. And um because the bartenders made me do it, they put a little bit of um a green Tabasco in it, I think was what they put into it, some sort of green based hot sauce. Uh just FYI. Now, uh parsley is a relatively stable herb, so it will last uh with blender modeling.
+
+[36:37] The problem with parsley as opposed to um other herbs, and I've I've noticed this, is by the way, there's a huge difference we've been noticing recently um between uh muddling curly and flat leaf. So all of my original recipes are made with uh flat leaf, which even though people sa some people have always said that curly parsley tastes more than has more flavor than flat leaf, but in our experience of uh muddling, nitrile muddling, we if you need to add more green, uh but you don't want more parsley flavor, add curly because it adds less of that kind of like that bitter back that parsley has uh versus the flat leaf. So all of my old recipes are written with flat leaf parsley in mind. The one problem with flat leaf parsley, even though it's a relatively robust herb and doesn't brown out or oxidize that quickly, so it can be blender muddled effectively. The problem with it is that it also settles out of solution much faster than let's say Thai basil does or Yeah, I noticed I made one uh over the weekend and I noticed that actually.
+
+[37:36] Yeah, so you have to constantly uh resuspend it. So um I have never done a test on whether the second time around it settles faster. Uh but mixed herbs, so I and I I don't know why parsley settles so much faster. Maybe it's because the leaves are so much heavier, and I also don't know whether curly leaf uh settles less quickly than uh flat leaf does. These are all things that bear experimentation.
+
+[38:04] But the current drink we have on the menu um at existing conditions, uh nitro muddle drink, is with uh celery leaves and parsley, and it does not settle out that fast, but it does brown rather quickly. I think the celery leaves must brown rather quickly because that sucker browns. I tried to keep one for an hour because we were making so many of them that it was becoming problematic for our bartenders. Um and I wasn't able to successfully keep it for two hours. I could probably keep it for like, you know, half hour or something like this.
+
+[38:34] But parsley itself should be robust. Have you noticed whether re like shaking it, does it make it better or no? Uh well, I only made it a couple. I was just like uh doing a little bit of a test batch. Uh so I made I only made two uh and I so I didn't really uh A B it.
+
+[38:44] Yeah. Well what I'm saying is that like I would try to I would make two again, put them in a bottle, let it sit an hour, and then shake it and see whether if you shake the bottle before you pour it and shake it on ice, if it comes back. You know what I mean? Like if it if it comes back to where it is, or whether it's like kind of perma-settled out. And the the reason it could perma settle out is there could be something uh there could be something with parsley that I don't know about.
+
+[39:15] I mean I doubt it, but there could be something with parsley I don't know about where the leaves not only settle but reagglomerate, right? So if they because Thai basil or the other basils don't settle as much, they don't ever touch each other as hard. Maybe they don't agglomerate, but if maybe if they were to settle on the bottom, they would turn into uh a puck that's harder to resuspend. I don't know. Um but yeah, I mean uh it's shocking straight parsley.
+
+[39:41] It's shocking how fast it settles out, like 10 minutes. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean mine settled out in the course of uh the time it took me to take to drink the drink, and I don't take that long to drink a drink, so yeah. That's why uh I can't remember in the book uh whether or not I added any auxiliary herbs, but it helps to add um auxiliary herbs. I've also never added any sort of stabilizer to it to try to see whether or not I could stabilize parsley.
+
+[40:09] Uh in general, you know, I've kind of shied away from putting stabilizers in drinks. I did some tests years and years ago with uh making uh Xanthan syrups. Uh the idea being to try to like not a lot of Xanthan, a little bit of Xanthan, right? Not so that it tastes snotty, but just to add a little more of uh texturizing um such that it would hold air longer to try to prolong the life of a shake and drink. And I was, shall we say, unsuccessful because um what happens is is it the effect isn't very noticeable on the front end, but the last couple sips of the drink are clearly not as pleasant as they would have been had you not added the Xanthan to it.
+
+[40:52] Um but it might help parsley settling, I don't know. I don't know, these are all interesting. Did you do like uh could you do like a Houstino style where you hit the whole like say you like you did like 750 uh gin with uh parsley and then spin it out with that work? Well, the color, as you probably remember, the color of it after it settles is not the greatest. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:17] Um and I don't remember how much of the flavor is present after the settling. Has a very light green, uh has a very, very light green. I can't remember how brown it is after it settles, once it's sitting in the bottle. I mean, look, everything's worth trying. Um I have tried nitrumdling and spinning out herbs before, and I have never had a fantastic result, but I've never tried it with, let's say, excess herbs, right?
+
+[41:47] Um I have I think tried it with ascorbic acid and it hasn't helped out much, like trying to like prevent the browning um over time. But that's a lot with like uh I most of my experiment spare experiments. Most of my experiments are with very fragile herbs like mint, which I just I just never can get mint to last. There's just nothing I can do that makes mint last. Fresh mint.
+
+[42:11] I know that other people do it. I just I just can't do it. I've just never made something off light. Right. Okay.
+
+[42:14] I will uh I will try some things and I'll uh let you know how it goes. Yeah, let me know. Okay. How was it? He loved it.
+
+[42:28] He learned to sail these little dingies who's sailing around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, the next question. Okay. Um hello all.
+
+[42:36] First, thank you for creating such an informative program. Second, I have a couple questions for you guys. Nastasia, have you had one? Oh, Jesus. Did you see what it's like, Nastasia?
+
+[42:45] Now now that you're talking to you, it's like that's okay. And Sassy, have you had to deal with a lot of sexist BS in your culinary ventures? And if so, what do you think about it? Or what do you do about it? Two, for any and all of you, I've been cooking for myself since I was went vegetarian over 16 years ago at the rebellious age of twelve.
+
+[43:02] This past winter I took a personal chef gig and loved it. I'd like to expand this personal chef career and I want to know if culinary school would absolutely require eating, tasting. Oh, yeah. That one we answered. We didn't answer the first part because you said I have too much to talk about.
+
+[43:14] So go. Oh no, I just yeah, sex is BS, yes. Uh that's real informative their stuff. I mean, I've been called the C word a bunch of times. I've done that.
+
+[43:25] Don't don't say that on it. Um I've been told I've been asked you are you as cold in bed as you are in person. Um I've been propositioned by people we know. Um Yeah. It sucks.
+
+[43:45] I've been treated differently when like there's a same question asked by a guy that I'll ask or but what do I do about it? I hold it all in so I can blackmail them someday. But you're not even doing it. You're not even I guess blackmailing it's a it's a long time. It's a long, it's a long game.
+
+[44:02] No, but so how mu how much of it like is like do you see a difference between just being excluded? In other words, like this the blatant like I'm saying something horrible to you versus just being like excluded from the places that you should be granted entry to. In other words, in terms of like the seat at the table, the uh being treated as an equal, etc. etc. Like, is there a difference between those two in your mind?
+
+[44:30] Is it all the same? There's a difference between what's worse. Not being seated at the table. I can take the like word abuse. You know, so I'm not gonna name any names here, but Nasta uh people that we all know, people that everyone listening to this knows, right?
+
+[44:47] Like uh have said extraordinarily inappropriate things to Nastasia that she has told me about that I a hundred percent believe. Uh and the funny thing and not funny, but the the thing about it is that um yeah, you know that that kind of stuff's not gonna work on Nastasia just 'cause the kind of person she is. Because she's like, what? No. Jerk.
+
+[45:13] You know what I mean? But like the fact of the matter is, is like people shouldn't have to be like you to not have that not be affected by that stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[45:27] Like people shouldn't have to be Nastasia Lopez to not fall sway to like the ridiculous propositions. But I think the way the way I am, like, you're always like, you're so mean, you're so like it's the buildup of callus and like, you know from all this crap. I'd rather be like this than be like, what did he say to me? No, but so you wait, so you think it's just you've ingrained it into your life. What?
+
+[45:58] Yeah. What? Super sweet. When uh you're like exactly 10 years ago before I started working with you. No, more like 12 years ago.
+
+[46:08] Yeah, so I just missed the sweet. Yeah. Just missed it. Oh, nice. Well, you were like, We were in that anti-Semitic van together.
+
+[46:15] I was pretty normal. Wait, what? That's how we met. You know this, Dave. I don't know this.
+
+[46:21] Nastasia and I met, started working together, in fact, because we bonded over being trapped in a van in the dark with a rabid anti-Semite. It sounds like a Seinfeld episode. It wasn't in the dark, Dave. It was in the morning. In the dark in the dark.
+
+[46:38] It was a dark van. It was a dark van. My vision was going dark and I was like, What did he just say? He was busting. He was like, I didn't know Nastasia from a hot rock.
+
+[46:49] And she was there and like helping me load in, and she clearly did not want to help me load in. Like Cesare Casella had invited us, who Nastasia used to work for, uh, invited us to do an event at his farm. The farm he where he, you know, he, you know, special needs. Great place, Thanksgiving farm uh at the Center for Discovery up in Hurleville. Great nonprofit work for you know uh people with multiple disabilities, including autism.
+
+[47:16] Great place. Uh and uh so he invites me up there and he's like, Che, ma, che, ma, Nastasia, Dave, he can't do anything, he can't do anything right. Go help him load. Right? Basically.
+
+[47:26] And so she comes in and she's like, I gotta help this freaking Jamok, Dave, whose head's not screwed on, who I don't know, never met, load in. So I'm there, we're loading all the garbage in. And we get stuck in this van together. And I'm my sense, by the way, this is my sense of most people. My sense is this lady does not want to talk to me at all.
+
+[47:46] She wants zero to do to me with me. She's doing this as a favor for her ex-boss Cesare, and then I will never speak to this person again in my life. And then and then all of a sudden, this guy, this driver, talks about how he's an ex cop. He you know had guns and all this other stuff, and he busts out of those people. He busts out of those people on Jews.
+
+[48:11] And I just turn around and I'm like, and then that happened. You know what I mean? And that's how we met. Yeah officially. Because otherwise, we never would have talked again.
+
+[48:25] And then we spent the next like like eight hours at the event being like, did that just happen? You know what I mean? Yeah. That'll bring people together. Yeah.
+
+[48:35] Yeah. Nothing like nothing like a crazy person to bring people together. Little did I know Nastasi's own fluid said ten. And here we are, ten years later. Ten years later.
+
+[48:46] And that doesn't get a lot of. What do you get each other? Nastasia just told you she's gonna. He's gonna buy me champagne. I'll buy him champagne.
+
+[48:53] We'll be even. Okay, cool. Great. Super. Dinner and dancing.
+
+[48:57] No. Anyway. Alright, was that the last question? Oh, you got time for one more? Now she's looking it up.
+
+[49:06] Like one more. I don't feel like you gave enough uh like I don't think you gave enough of an answer on that about like I don't think women should I think you should try to blackmail as much as you can. What the hell kind of advice is this? Because first of all, blackmail is oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Illegal.
+
+[49:23] So like Yes, you're not allowed to blackmail people. That's not officially crime, though. Yeah. You can be charged with blackmail? I think so.
+
+[49:31] No. No, no, no. Someone in the chat room. Stuff's illegal. No.
+
+[49:34] Not to mention unethical. I feel like somebody would look the other way though if you're like, you know, putting up with sexual. I also have a lot of crosses. Well, I have a few crosses in my wallet. Do you guys know about the sign of the cross?
+
+[49:44] We talked about that on air. What? Have we talked about the sign of the cross on air? Go do. My stepfather's father, the butcher, who I've talked about on air past last year, and uh past meats died.
+
+[49:55] And um he used to say, he used to be like, once he was done with someone, once someone shafted him to the extent that he's like he's like never wanting to speak to them again, never want anything to do with him, he would say, That's it. Sign of the cross. And he would take a piece of paper and he would draw a cross on the piece of paper, fold up the paper, put it in his wallet, and that's it. You're dead to him. Whoa.
+
+[50:21] So I told Nastasia this, and that's like her favorite thing. Yeah. But she's not as hardcore as Gerard's dad. Like she will eventually sometimes forgive and or lose a piece of paper. I've heard of something similar.
+
+[50:31] Like freezing somebody out, you write their name on a piece of paper and then like put it in water, put it in the freezer, and like make it an ice cube. Really? Nice. It's like some voodoo. But the two crosses I had, terrible things happen to them.
+
+[50:42] So it works. The other one that you have to use, the like there's a lot of cross, there's a lot of cross things in the family. The other one is whenever someone's bothering you, you have to say, Imatazio Christi and you hold your arms out because you're like, Stop crucifying me. I like that. Yeah.
+
+[50:57] I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a good family to be a good family to be a part of. All right, that's all the time because the other question is really long.
+
+[51:05] What's it about? What backyard cooking equipment should they get if they buy a house? Well, if you buy a house, you should. Here's the thing. I've said this many, many times before.
+
+[51:14] Um He likes the idea of getting a walk station, Tandoor. By the way, Chris Young said, uh we have that still have that question on pickles that we haven't freaking answered yet. I know. And Chris said, just schedule it and I'll call in. And guess what I didn't do?
+
+[51:28] Schedule it. Schedule it. So maybe next week we'll schedule it uh along who else do we have? Who do we have on the show next week? We have uh Applewood meat vending machine, man.
+
+[51:37] I like the I like So I'm gonna look up this meat vending machine, and then we're just gonna like either like or go to town on the idea of vending. He's gonna is he gonna bring the meat vending machine? No. Okay, okay. Uh so back to what you should get for your outdoor thing.
+
+[51:51] What you should get for your outdoor uh thing is as much crap as you could possibly get, right? So I ha I don't actually use my tandoor as much as I used to, but it completely changed the way I cook. So having had a tandoor has made me, I think, a different and better cook for large parties. And I'll write about it in the book if I ever write the book, right? Stas Stas is shaking her head.
+
+[52:15] Uh but um having a tandoor, I think, is great practice uh for other things. I love having the tandoor. Uh uh, just as physically like you want, it depends. Are are you gonna cook for large groups or are you gonna cook for small groups? An outdoor fryer just completely is amazing.
+
+[52:33] Like having an outdoor fryer is just the best because everybody likes fried foods. Not everybody eats fried foods, but everybody likes fried foods. Do you trust someone who doesn't like fried fruits and stuff? No, because they're stupid, right? They're bad.
+
+[52:46] Anyway. Uh, outdoor fryer. Wiley likes, he has the Cajun Fryer, he likes it. My one gripe with the Cajun Fryer is it does not have a uh thermostat on it. Um, I don't know if you could retrofit it.
+
+[52:59] It's dangerous to retrofit gas things, but that said, I have done it many times. Um, and having uh you might want to have a relatively small grill to work with if you're only cooking for one or two people, but having a very large grill, like cowboy style grill, I have a cheap one which gets beat up very easily, but I got it at the Home Depot for like less than I got it for like 130 or 140 dollars, and I've cooked food for 25 people on it, like you know, all at the same time by using the off-on, off on method. I'm a big that that's what the Tandor taught me. I do almost all of my grilling now with the off-on, off-on method. Whether or not I do a pre-cook or not, off on, off on, off on.
+
+[53:39] And it just makes my cooking so much faster and more consistent. Uh, so I like it. But anyway, that's what I do for outdoor cooking. We'll come back, we'll try to get Chris Young, we'll have some meat vending machines next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[54:03] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[54:29] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code Cooking25 for 25% off your order. I'm Southern Teague of Amoria Margot and co-host of the Speakeasy right here on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:27] You know, my favorite thing to do every week is to come here and be on the show. I have lots of jobs. I am a very busy person. Um and I do this because I love it. I get to sit down and talk to all my heroes for about an hour every week.
+
+[0:41] It's incredible. And I hope that you enjoy it, making a great effort to share with you. We'd like you to share back with us. It's our summer fundraiser, and we'd love for you to donate uh at Heritage Radio Network.org forward slash donate. You can click on the beating heart, and you can even choose shows that you'd like to donate to specifically.
+
+[0:57] And you can also choose a recurring monthly uh gift. Uh and for all that we'd be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from I don't know, like 12, 12, 10, to like, you know, like one, like one ish one-ish from a bird's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn!
+
+[1:31] Not joined as usual with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. She's in an investor meeting, but not in the business that we have together. Her other business, which is apparently more important than you folks out there, so there's that. Uh we got Dave in the booth. Yeah, take that to the bank.
+
+[1:44] Yeah. How are you doing, Dave? I'm all right. How about you? All right, how's your week?
+
+[1:47] How's your week been? Yeah, so far so good, I guess. I think Nastasia said she may come later. And thankfully she will never listen to the back, so she won't hear me talking about her like a dog. That's true.
+
+[1:56] But we do have today uh in uh in in the studio a an interesting guest. We have uh Joshua Applestone. Hello. Hello. The uh founder and owner of uh Applestone Meets and uh Fleischers, as in one who cuts up flesh, as in a butcher.
+
+[2:16] Yes, one who cuts up flesh is like a butcher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you in fact are a butcher. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[2:21] All right. We also have in the studio with us the chief uh chief creative officer of Apple Stone. I'm the CO and then creative director. Creative Director. COO.
+
+[2:29] So COO Sheep Operating Officer, right? Indeed. What the hell does that mean? It means I do everything that Josh wants me to do. Something I don't want to do.
+
+[2:37] Yeah, but okay, but like, so uh I've always been curious. There's all these like C's and then some O's and stuff. Like, I understand what a CFO does. That's the money person. Not that they have the money, they move the money around, right?
+
+[2:50] CEO basically, I guess does whatever they want to. They're the C C E O. C O O like do all institutions have a C O O? I mean, I know we don't have a C anything of O. We have just like you know, Booker and Dax, we've got Ripity Doo-da.
+
+[3:06] You know what I mean? So it's Nastasia and myself, but I like to quote one of our employees on this. He gave us an employee feedback review, and he said that Josh was kind of like a wild animal like energy in the world, and that I was the prism that channeled all of his wild ideas into reality. So in our case, anyway, the COO is the person who just like makes the crazy ideas happen and then oversees everybody else who's also really making it happen. I like that.
+
+[3:32] So and by the way, people, when you're starting a business, you know, you should find people who have the skills you don't. Oh god. Just hire people. Yes, exactly. You know, I have made this mistake before.
+
+[3:43] You can't hire all the same personalities, you can't hire all everyone with the same idea. You need a well diverse staff. Yeah. And then also in the booth we have uh Rebecca who I've worked worked with uh years past uh at uh Momofuku. How are you doing, Rebecca?
+
+[3:59] I'm good. How are you? So what's your what's the what's your official story right now? Uh I am working with these fine folks and with you. Nice, yes.
+
+[4:08] But so you're not you're officially not involved with the the Momofuku anymore, or you are? I I left Momofuku in May, although they will always be family. I can never tell what's official and what's not because what happens is people first of all, I can't even keep my own name straight, or like, you know, birthdays in my family. So people was as soon as someone says don't say anything, for me that's like forever. So like Rebecca tells me, like, you know, don't say anything because I'm gonna do something on my own, maybe.
+
+[4:36] And so for me, that's a forever. Don't say that forever. That is for forever, Dave. You're breaking that right now. You blew it, Dave.
+
+[4:43] All right, so listen, people, you're gonna want to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Because if you didn't know it, the one of the really cool things about Apple Stone uh meets, meats, meats, meats, is uh that I didn't know whether it was meats or meat company. It's a meat company, we have meats. Right, but is the Apple Stone Meat Company?
+
+[5:07] Yes, the official name, yeah. Yeah, Apple Stone Meat Company. So the cool thing about this, and you know, I I'm actually pretty curious to talk to you guys about what the the the impetus for it and kind of what the positives and negatives are. Uh the idea here is that you have this uh you you have this desire to sell uh very high quality, well raised, well butchered meats, right? And then you have a group of people that wants to buy that, but uh they might want to buy that at a time in which you don't feel it convenient to sell it to them.
+
+[5:40] We the idea of a brick and mortar being open on a traditional nine to five doesn't fit everyone's everyone's schedule. And to play with the hours of availability is almost not fair. So we are 24-7 and seven days a week. And so just to say it, because I haven't said it yet, these guys put their meat in vending machines. Now, for those of you, I know this is a this is a podcast, so you can't see what I'm talking about.
+
+[6:09] So I'm gonna help you picture what kind of vending machine. We're not talking about like uh a soda vending machine where you just see a picture of the soda. We're talking about, and no one's gonna remember this because I don't know, because no one out there is old enough, but they used to have these vending machines for sandwiches in like 1970s and early 80s, like cafeteria. Really? Yes, because that's the machines we use currently.
+
+[6:30] Yeah, well, I saw the picture of it, but I didn't know I thought maybe you refurbed old ones. I didn't know they still made them. When we started this years ago, we couldn't find those machines that current uh accepted credit cards because those type of machines were only used in institutional use that worked off of debited accounts. So we had to not only take what we needed uh with existing technology, we had to turn it to what we needed to do to see if it would work. Because you know, we've been doing this for four years.
+
+[6:57] We started with the idea of how this would be great if we could do this to how can we, how can we do this, and to uh now we're into designing and patenting our own machines because what's available now still is not what we need is not readily available now in the marketplace. So you're still customizing constantly. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's a faceless transaction. Although we have someone there, the hours are 11 to 6, I believe, seven days a week. So you can always talk to someone if you have questions or any issues that might pop up.
+
+[7:26] There's always someone there to talk to a decent window of time every day. But to have a faceless transaction, to have a transaction that you become a brand that's trusted because you know no matter what you get out of the machine, you're gonna you're good to go. Has been a process and a study, and um for my previous company working that for 10 years and being the food industry forever, seeing what we're doing now, although it doesn't seem like such a big deal has really been amazing because where we started at where people thought no, we we're every kind of company I basically do, people think we're crazy to start it. When we started and people give me the look, like, you know, how could that be? And buying something, that's like I said, buying something out of the vending machine.
+
+[8:07] We're going towards the idea of not concentrating about buying out of a vending machine, but having a sales experience or a retail sales experience, not only is quick and efficient, but it was on their schedule, which is really crazy. I mean, it is crazy. It's awesome. I mean, who the hell wants meat at 10 p.m.? And of course, we were just at an engineer's office recently, and this woman came up to us.
+
+[8:27] She's like, I gotta tell you, I have diabetes, you've saved my life because I get out of the gym at 9 p.m., I need to go home. There's nothing open upstate, and now I can get fresh meat from you, or sometimes it gets frozen or whatever it is, and she's good to go. She has exactly the balanced meal she needs when she needs it. And we have firemen, fire people, we have people commuting. It's just people don't all work the same hours.
+
+[8:48] It's something that's such an old concept that you that what you should only be open nine to five or under. And anyone out there in retail understands the cost involved with running a brick and mortar to ch to have these sales in the certain window. Well, also like like everyone in the country, especially especially everyone in the you know who's not living in uh you know who's living kind of in the suburbs has become accustomed to 24-7 major big groceries, and so basically what happens is is if they want food outside of what you're saying, like that nine to five uh hour range, um they are they're buying supermarket product. The people what we've seen with Amazon and other more convenient platforms for selling the direct to consumer sales, people in a way will sacrifice quality for convenience, and it's almost a punishment that if you you want to be able to get this at any time, you're only gonna have this many uh products to pick from. It's it's a common problem where even people don't have enough selection, they don't have enough choice, and things are getting more and more expensive.
+
+[9:56] How do you get more for your dollar without losing money? Or how can you give a consumer more more more convenience, more quality for the same amount of money without having to cut prices? And to us it was about the time that people have access to it. Right. Well, I think also there's like a you know, I mean, obviously, this is not like anything new, but there's a there's a a much uh a fast growing segment of the population with enough money to buy decent quality products, but not so much money that they're completely price insensitive.
+
+[10:26] And no one is price insensitive, I don't believe that. Right. And so but so like to be able to, you know, not have to deal with like the loss and the problems of distributing to let's say a local supermarket that's open 24-7. You know, I think that group of people, like, you know, I'm one of those people, we also like thinking that the person that we're buying from, even if we don't get to see you in person, somehow gets to lead a decent life. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:52] It it goes beyond that, where I think it's it's not only do you want your butcher, your convenience person to have a normal life, you want to see them at ball games, you want to see them out in a weekend, not behind a counter. But people really want to believe that they're supporting a local ecosystem. Even if if you had a super if you had a small mom papo Dega that doesn't have anything local, people still believe, and they are, they're supporting a local economy, even though the products don't come from New York City or Brooklyn or wherever it is, that there is different ideas of local, there's different ideas of locale that supporting a small business is literally doing that. A local economy, uh, and it's important is that the 24-7 was such a gift in a way to consumers that we didn't realize because it was one of the final things, final hurdles people had that to buy meat out of a machine is a big deal, but really to be able to buy it anytime you want at a high quality. We I was just talking about where I was at the store, and these guys are talking, one guy's a weightlifter and the other one's uh some big MMA star and talking about how they constantly go to our place, you know, late at night because they work out, it's an easier thing.
+
+[12:00] And you realize that people need clean food everywhere, they need a safe zone everywhere. That we hear about food deserts, we hear about um just shops being too expensive or just not you know not carrying the quality, it's very hard to appease everyone. But when you start picking and choosing your battles really carefully and focusing the store on that, it seems to work. Like, you know, right now we just do meat, we're trying to stay with that. To do other groceries to me, kind of takes away from the purpose of what we're doing.
+
+[12:29] But there's still items. I mean, it's like milk. We l where we have our first store, which is Stone Ridge up in the Hudson Valley, and really the whole place closes down at 10 p.m. You know, you have to feed your, you forget about picking up dog food late at night. You have uh you need milk for the morning.
+
+[12:43] There's just something really convenient about a model like this that doesn't tax you between the the quality and the price. The thing about meat though is that I mean, almost anybody meat is still, even with the absurd relative cheapness of meat these days in supermarkets, meat is still seen as kind of like the big buy of the day. You know what I mean? Check this out. When we we go to Vegas every year to go to the vending shows, because we're always looking for new technology technology, which is why we're doing our own machines because there's just nothing out there.
+
+[13:17] That we were at one last year, and these guys sell like three thousand dollar computers, and like, yeah, we can sell this many computers, no problem a day, it's no big deal at all. But someone's gonna buy a six dollar pack of ground meat, you gotta really think about that. And we realized that we were really on to something because just with my background and my ease with this type of product, I know it better than anything. That it's easy for me to sell this, and it's it's not easy for me to sell it faceless, but it's that's shorter of a gap for me to make that for people to get people to understand. Because people are so used to buying computers, they're so used to these things, and it's I think one of the reasons it hasn't been done is because there has not been a name out there that's so trusted with such a particular type of safe zone.
+
+[13:55] Right, right. And that's why, and you know, it just sounds so stupid, but the 24-7 is what really was like, dink. We because we realized that, like, you know, it success not everyone's successful working tons of hours is making tons of money, but there's like a little theme here. You realize like, oh, everyone's working tons of hours, no one has any time. Tell me about it.
+
+[14:15] I know. Well, even my Yeah, but that's what it is. And you know, it's funny, with our staff, we work five days a week. We work Monday to Friday, you know, we start seven, they are off by three. And one of the things that they people would come to me, our employees would be like, oh, it's only amazing to have off on the weekends.
+
+[14:28] I've never, literally never in 20 years not off on weekends. I've always worked at restaurants. And you realize that it satisfies the front of the house because we have a convenience, we have a product, and we have a locations that we're working on that people are very willing to try it out. And on the back end with our employees, that we can pay them a little bit more, we can give them more time off. And just like you said, it's like it's all of a sudden you realize that it brings more of a human factor to everything.
+
+[14:52] When we came up with this originally, my whole thing for talking to other butchers was that you can now close your slowest day and just have this machine packed, and you don't have to even worry about being open. You're only gonna do a certain amount anyway, you know that you sell these things to these regulars, and all of a sudden having a day off, it's like having a real day off, especially when you have a kid. That's that's a big deal. Yeah, and now, okay, so a couple of things about about the experience and a couple of questions. So when Rebecca first told me, hey, you know, meet vending machine like me.
+
+[15:19] Why the hell would anyone do that? Sure. But uh, I have to say, like, you have to Google, you have to Google it uh and look at the look at the the vending machine, and you can see right away that I am one of those people that I must see the thing I am buying. This is why I I know I'm a complete Luddite, strangely, because I'm known for kind of technical cooking stuff, but I don't use delivery services for my groceries because I like to see the food that I'm gonna buy. Even if I go to my local fine fair, you know, garbage supermarket, I like to pick out my produce, I like to pick out the products I'm gonna use.
+
+[15:52] Specific cuts, specific pieces. I want that piece because I'm going to cook it a particular way. And this the vending machine, it's like a stack of carousels. So you have like a column with carousels on it. Eight rows.
+
+[16:07] Yeah, eight rows. And you can see, and I don't know how many, how many in each segments in each depends on the size of the of the uh pocket, if you would. But enough. A lot. And you can rotate through, and you can pick exactly the thing you want.
+
+[16:20] You're not like pushing a button and like, you know, you know, like in a vending machine, this is because this is what I was thinking. You're buying uh like uh those Ritz crackers, even though they have salmonella now, the uh Ritz sandwich crackers, and there's that screw thing, and the one that's in the front is mangled, but the one that's in the back is nice, and you're like, ah, I want the rich cracker, but I don't want the mangled one, I want the one behind it. In this situation, you get to choose exactly which one you want, right? You get to choose your piece of meat, like you can choose whichever column you want. No?
+
+[16:49] Yes. This is this is yeah, yes. But it's a whole long conversation. I'm sure Sam's giving me the look. Don't get in.
+
+[16:57] It it having a convenient shopping experience with a as guarantee as you can perfect product, there are compromises. And the new machines were developing that the thing that you just said, the reason I pick these machines now that we use currently for the past two and a half years, is because you can rotate them to see different stakes and it'll be different prices. But when you really haven't been there, so when you look at it, you can't really see them though. You can see them, but you can't see them the way what you just said. Now, you're the type of person when you walk into a butcher shop saying, Can you take that tray out?
+
+[17:34] I want I want to see that one third in the back or second. And that's fine. That type of customer with the new machines might not be as satisfied now, but I'm betting that it works out anyway. And we did this on purpose because the way vending machines are built today, you can't make it as displayable as you would in a butcher shop. For safety for food safety reasons, or it's not food safety reasons, it's packaging reasons, it's integrity of the product reasons, it's the setting up of the machine reasons.
+
+[18:09] And for you for one to have to literally mimic a butcher shop 100%, it can be done. It most likely would make the same amount of profit margins that a modern butcher shop does, which are small. I can I interject though. Hey, this is a sure, you can say whatever you like, Rebecca. Um, however, you do have someone there, and one of the things that I like about the store is say you do want to see exactly what you want to pick out, they can go pull and you can look at a variety of pieces, which they do, you know.
+
+[18:45] So I think it's and the new machines will do the same thing, except it does it in a different way. And the reason I say is because I'm a butcher and because my entire background is in I want to see that third steak in the back. Yeah, that's that's the way I live. But there's a way there's a percent when you walk into a sort of in the back. Right.
+
+[19:00] Well, that's I gotta tell you you're saying this, Mike. Oh, I know exactly where you are. The when you walk into a butcher shop, you expect certain sounds, feet, smells, feeling of the air. The reason that you feel so empowered to say I want the third in the back is because this is a routine that you've been trained to accept and know that you know your limitations with and this is what it is, and also Dave Arnold is Dave Arnold. I'm not gonna say that.
+
+[19:25] So the situation of someone walking into a shop like ours with new machines and saying, I want to feed three people, I want to do three bone-in stakes, the machine will show them a series of stakes to pick from, just like you want. So it provides guidance, the new thing. But guidance at the sizes, the pricing of each one, the whole Michigas, how thick it would be with a ruler next to it. But that's not yet. That's not true.
+
+[19:51] No, that's the new one. There's no way right now you can see them. But I'm talking about like the way the way the future is going, the way I can see it, the way I can see um pricing staying lower, accessibility getting better and better, and quality staying there without being taxed on price. That we have to be retrained how we look at things. And the same way when we when you said people come in, they buy out a machine, they're so thrilled and it's done.
+
+[20:14] My next generation of machines, I hope people not to think about buying out of a machine rather than saying that was the coolest fucking experience I ever had. I just bought this stuff. And by the way, everything I got there was amazing. Like every time I go there, it I you know, I want the same, I want the same size flat iron. I get it every time.
+
+[20:30] I want the same ground beef that taste the same has the same mouthfeel. And that's what people are really looking for. They're looking for a consistent, steady product they know is good for them that's not gonna kill them in the pocketbook. Isn't that uh, but isn't I mean a consistency is always when you're dealing with kind of like higher end meats is the hardest thing to achieve in general, whether you're an shopper. I mean, for in the market in here in New York, like it that's so variable because the supplies aren't as things really, yeah.
+
+[20:56] I swear to God. Nice. Uh it's just it's a matter of um how one conducts their business. Not that one's better or worse. It's just that I know that what I have done throughout time, I know what I who I work with, I it's just what I do.
+
+[21:10] So my job is sourcing and execution, and uh the we're just talking about I was talking about these guys. I was talking to you yesterday about the idea of how being a butcher is such an art because there really is like you know, muscles are different, you have to trim them a certain way. You know, going back to the idea of the faceless transaction, it's really important for us to have consistency. It's really important for us to have knowing that someone's gonna buy something out of the machine. Although there's someone there, you can always kibbish with, you can if you buy something you don't like it, you can turn around and return it, and like you know, just exchange it.
+
+[21:37] You want more selection. It's you know, we're customer service, we're there to help. But there's there's a there's an hour for that, and the rest of just come freely and do what you want or do what you can. So do you still get to have do you mean like do you miss or do you still get, I guess, that kind of customer. Back when I had a back when I was a real human being, like I used to like everyone that it was like, you know, oh, like 16, 17 years ago, and I was a real human and I had a butcher, his name was Michael, and I would visit Michael, and we would spend like a half hour together, and you know, he would be like, I can get you the illegal lungs, Dave.
+
+[22:14] And then, like, you know what I mean? And then we talk about his family, and he'd get married, and I'd buy him a bottle of wine for his marriage, and you know what I mean, stuff like this. That definitely still happens. We still it's it's we have shift reports, two two shift reports a day. We're including in these shift reports that Sam's actually set up, that we have communications with customers and special things are happening, bad things, and we still have the same feeling that we've always had uh with what our company I'm doing.
+
+[22:39] We still we we're really big on community, we're looking at community cookbooks, we're constantly talking to our customers. The the social interaction with people is still there. It's what really blows our mind is how many people do not want to talk to anyone, and they come there late at night, and it's not just people commuting up, it's literally just people like, look, I just want to get in and out and be done. One of my favorite stories is like at 2 a.m. Someone's in there trying to use the machines, and um there's not working.
+
+[23:07] There's one other per at 2 a.m. There's another person, there's some dude there. And the guy looks over to his right, and the guy's like, oh yeah, I'll show you about something shows him how to do it. The guy's like, thanks a lot. And he looks at him and goes, Thanks a good.
+
+[23:16] And he's like, that was Daniel Craig. James Bond literally just showed me how to do but it was just interesting. No, no, no, just people traveling through. But the way we see things is that every single person out there needs to shop when they do and when they want to. And the idea that this is hitting anywhere from a fireman to someone famous to the teacher, says that we're on the right path.
+
+[23:39] You know, what the biggest question I had from people when we started was like, now who who actually shops there? And it was one of those days where I walk in and my my eight-year-old son at the time was talking to some people, probably in their 70s on how to use the machine. And you know, it was one of those clicking moments going, wow, there's really no method to the madness, just that everyone out there needs clean food. How do we get it to them? And how do we make it as easy as possible?
+
+[24:01] We don't think we're gonna get everyone, but what's really funny is that even the person who wants to pick the third steak in the back is gonna use that place at least once a week because it's convenience. Right. You know, it's it's not everyone wants a $30 bonus steak. Some people just need a pack of ground beef. So we have a we have a caller we're gonna take, but then when I get back, I want to know what cut of meat Daniel Craig bought.
+
+[24:20] Caller. Oh, you don't remember? Come on, man. I'll be like, he bought what? Anyway, uh caller, you're on the air.
+
+[24:27] I did this is uh Jeff Given from Custom Af. I met you in the bar last night. We were talking about patents. Yeah, hey, how are you doing? How's it?
+
+[24:33] Yeah, so he had a question about patents, and he's working. I can say this because he said it on the air before, in the realm of sinks and foot pedals. Do you use foot pedals at the butcher shop ever? Foot pedals and sinks. The foot pills get too schmutzy.
+
+[24:50] Oh, in the butcher shop. Anyway, go ahead. What's up? Yeah, so um you also we walked over to the you had a bunch of waffles soaking in rum. And you mentioned something about um needing to separate the separate off the starch, and it reminded me that I have at home a cork container of strawberry juice that I couldn't get to clarify in the spinz all.
+
+[25:09] And I wondered if I warmed it up too much in the vita prep. If you've ever had a problem with that, where I don't know if there's some kind of like methylesterase potato situation where it's like setting the pectants too hard where then they can't they can't break down from the enzyme. I have never had that happen with strawberries. What can happen with strawberries is um if they don't if you don't get the solids to clump hard enough. I understand what you're saying.
+
+[25:34] You're thinking you're functionalizing the pectants such that they don't drop out or don't get killed by the enzyme. Yeah, I just wondered if that's the way. I would do a little redose of enzyme again, like maybe the strawberries are a little tarder than they were before, and um right around the pH range of strawberries, the um you need to up the uh enzyme load on the uh SPL to get it to clarify properly. Okay. So you could try hitting it with a little more SPL.
+
+[25:58] You were using wine finding agents or no? Um, I did all of it, yeah. Yeah. You can also just the pack with just the enzyme and then went with the keys all catsan. Right.
+
+[26:07] So if you're doing like Kesel Sol, aka D1, right, and then uh chitosan and then Keselsaw again. If it doesn't flock hard enough, you can just hit it again with whatever the opposite of the last one you hit is. So if you did D1, D2, D1, you can go back to a little bit of D2. I've never done it more than like one more like addition of D1, D2, and then with a little extra enzyme, and that should drop out. But a good idea as that stuff sits in the fridge overnight, should clump harder and you should see like some cloudy stuff at the bottom of your juice, and that stuff will spin spin right out.
+
+[26:43] Yeah, I've got that. And so now it's been in there for a long time. So then I'm wondering if I should just turn it into strawberry drink and what what you would actually do for that process. Oh, well, strawberry strawberry, fresh strawberry is gonna have a bricks anywhere between eight and nine and change, depending, unless you have some preposterously sweet sweet strawberries out there. So if if you want to uh and it's very tart.
+
+[27:05] So I used to use this uh product when I was teaching called genemic acid that would erase people's sense of sweet. And if you remove the sugar from a strawberry, it is a freaking acid bomb. It's just really, really, really sour. So I wouldn't do it. Could I dose back in some simple or something after?
+
+[27:23] Oh, you could. You could ferment it dry and then hit it with sugar to bring to bring it back. But I would say you're gonna want to add some sugar anyway to take it up. I would take it up to like like 15, 16 uh bricks to ferment it dry, and then it's gonna be really acidic. So you're gonna want to cut it with something, or uh, yeah, I guess you could, you know, turn it to an off-dry to uh do it.
+
+[27:43] But the the acidity level of those strawberries is gonna be typically quite high. And strawberry on its own without sugar, because when I ferment stuff, I in general prefer to drink dry fermented things like beers and wines dry. And so like I did some dry mead earlier with uh a bunch of wild honey and some friends' wild grapes. How was it? Cut it as dry as I get it with delicious.
+
+[28:04] Yeah, so like I like I like dry, but just like beware. I think that's the problem with like a lot of craft ciders and craft fermented stuff in the US these days, is that they, you know, don't take into account how acidic things become when they're fermented dry. And they always like, you know, kill the process when they're still sweet. But let us know how it works out. All right.
+
+[28:24] And good luck with your patents. Appreciate it. Bye, bye. Uh, we should take a quick break. All right, we'll take a quick break, come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[28:41] Hey Nastasi, it's time for our Bob's Red Mill moment where we put your cooking improvisational skills to the test. This week's secret ingredient is lentils. Nastasia, tell us what you'd make. I would make lentils with uh co taquino or what was the other one? Uh like they do in Italy for New Year's and serve it up.
+
+[29:04] Why lentils? Because they cook super quick. No, lentils and new years because lentils is the equivalent of money. Oh, yeah. They shape like little coins.
+
+[29:11] Yes. And they cook fairly quickly because they're so thin, you don't need to soak them very much. They cook very quickly. It's easy to cook lentils in a very fast manner. Yeah.
+
+[29:21] Uh thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob's Redmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code cooking25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking, no space, the number two, the number five. And we are back talking to Joshua from Applestone Meat Corporation.
+
+[29:46] What is it? What is it really? Apple, what is it really? A camera? Overstone Meat Company.
+
+[29:49] Applestone meat Company. I can never get the names of anything right. Even my own company. It's crazy. Applestone meat corporation sounds really bad.
+
+[29:57] I wanted to make it sound like really like horrible Simpsons S. Yeah. Amalgamated conglomerated meats. Exactly. Exactly.
+
+[30:06] Conglomerated is like right up there with congealed is a bad thing when you talk about meats. The meat is congealed. No one wants to get it. Yeah, yeah. New business idea.
+
+[30:16] So is a uh don't give me a story. Is the now here's another thing I had a question. So you said you're moving to new machines. Is it because you one of the things because you want to increase like the density of product you can store in the in the machines? Is it that you can't get enough product into your current machines?
+
+[30:30] That's one of the reasons. Yeah, I mean, like, because you're limited by, by the way, I don't know if you know this. We had to, we have uh at my bar, uh we have some old Coca-Cola vending machines that we've modified. Yeah, yeah. But we have legal problems because like people are like, you should put these other places.
+
+[30:46] And I'm I'm actually working on that too. I'm like, it's illegal for me to do that. I don't have the proper license to do that. It's interesting, yeah. We can that's another radio show.
+
+[30:56] Yeah. Yeah. But uh, you know, specifically in New York State, you know. Liquor laws are tough. Yeah, they're tough.
+
+[31:02] And so, you know, you you know, we have a license to sell on premise. We are specifically not allowed to sell off-premise. So we in our vending machines, people are like, uh, are you allowed to do that? And I'm like, I couldn't hear you, I couldn't hear what you said. I couldn't hear your question.
+
+[31:17] Uh but the uh like we're very, very careful. Um catering license. Yeah, well, we're super careful, like we make sure that everybody who takes one opens it, right? Like right if you take it home. Like yes, like Jersey hat.
+
+[31:32] You can buy, yeah. Yeah. So like as long as we know that it's opened, like it's it's kosher, right? And the other thing is that because it's on premise and it's illegal to over-serve, we only sell token by token to people, not like, hey, can I buy a sack of tokens? And you're like, and you're like machine, the champagne machine is the same way you have to buy tokens.
+
+[31:54] Yeah, hey, but what if someone comes in every day and they buy one token and they don't use any media? Why are you messing with my business? Why are you messing with my business for? I think you started it already. It's the night.
+
+[32:07] Yeah, but like an entire show of payback from I mean, obviously, obviously from a business standpoint, if someone wants to buy a token as a uh someone wants to buy a token as a uh a keepsake, man, that's a win, like a s like a like a 50 cent token. Give certificates, man. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Win win win. But uh the buttons.
+
+[32:29] The thing is also is that like they're the our vending machines are completely monitored. Right. Like there's always a host within 10 feet of that, and then the bartender at the point of the bar can look over and see what's going on. So our last call on the machine too. Uh same.
+
+[32:46] So like they like, well, if you buy a token, like you we you are not allowed to pull a drink out of that machine after our license is up, right? So like technically, if like on a Monday we close at, you know, our liquor license is till midnight. So as long as they pull that bottle out of the machine before midnight, we're not we probably won't sell them a token after like 11 50, but if they want to pull the bottle out, like if if it gets past midnight, I'll just refund them their money. Yeah. You know, because like if they want to take the token with them, Mazletov.
+
+[33:18] But if they're like, I want the the well, I'm like, you know what? Here's your money back, you know, with my you know, my blessings come again. So it's the same thing. Like you just tell them, you know, this is the cutoff. In a bar, right?
+
+[33:29] I mean, the thing about a bar is like a bar, I guess, like a butcher, is it you know, people go there for different reasons. Some people they want to sit at a table, be left alone, and just have the drinks. Some people they want to sit at the bar, they want to have an interaction with the bartender. They're and the same customer could feel you know, like different on different days. One day I might want to be at the bar, one day I might want to be left alone.
+
+[33:55] I don't know. You know what I mean? Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's exactly how the company runs. We see that.
+
+[33:59] We see people who like will walk past us nine out of ten times, and then one out of ten times they just want to chat. We have super narrative focused shift reports. We've taught our staff to really talk about like people patterns and things about people in their shift reports so that everybody who's working has an idea of the actual human element rather than just like the logistics of it. So, like we I know certain people by name who I've never even met before, because I'm not working retail, but I know that like art always buys this on this day. Like the reports saying, you know, you're like, art.
+
+[34:29] Hello, art and did you get worried, you're like, oh my god, we ran out of brisket and art's gonna come. They literally say that. That would be like yeah, we have our regulars, just like any shop. You have people regular some people. Like, we'll know if they had a baby, they'll be like, Oh, so and so came in with so and they finally had their baby, you know, like so.
+
+[34:45] We're in the loop on the narrative of our customers, even when we're not there. That's cool. Yeah, I mean, for us, the vending machine was a we could do it, b we we you know, my last bar had a bottled cocktail program. Which is amazing. Thank you.
+
+[34:57] They're so good. And then you've seen the old machines that did that? The which one? The old machines that were cocktail mixing machines. No, that sounds cool.
+
+[35:04] Like, actually from back in the day. Yeah, I tr I've just it sounds like a I just travel a lot and I can't remember where the hell I was. It could have been Denver, but it's not in operation anymore, but they just use it as a come in and take a look. Maybe it was sugar. But they work like the old coffee machines used to, where you're like, I want to do it.
+
+[35:23] If you want like a gin martini, you pull the gin thing and then pit the martini. It's like an old computer where um it was like you punch out certain holes in the in a car and you feed the card to the old Univac work that's in there. How could that not have been Vegas? It just sounds like Vegas. It could have been called Vegas machine.
+
+[35:38] The reason I don't know, it could be but the reason I don't think it was Vegas is because everywhere we went in Vegas is always like and this one was not. So you're like, it was more like Reno. Uh but like the uh Atlantic City. The thing with the vending machine for us was is that we're look like the the real bartenders, barbacks and prep people who are making the cocktails for you in the real life are making the cocktails that are in the vending machine. So the our hands are still there, you know what I mean?
+
+[36:05] It's the same thing with us. Just people just sometimes people don't want to talk to you. They don't want to say, I want to throw in the back, they just want to get it and split. And it was one of those it was just one of those moments. We're like, you know, when we start the reason this whole thing came about is that when I started the company, you know, I begged Sam to come aboard, and it was just she and I.
+
+[36:20] I'm in the back cutting, she's handling the front, trying to figure how we want to structure the company and what we're doing. And you know, I'm constantly being stopped on what I'm doing, come to the front, talk to someone, sell no thing. And it just it was one of those moments like, wow, we're never gonna get anything done. And we started with a machine, and it was it was crazy. And you gotta understand, like when we started versus where we are now, that the acceptance factor is just worlds away.
+
+[36:44] That you know, how how could anyone want to do that to people are not demanded, but they'd really love to see us in every single town they're in? That there's a lot of areas that need clean, good, safe zones that don't have anything. And it's it's interesting. We're trying to keep up with it. Uh so your first meeting with Market and AG after you start a vending.
+
+[37:04] Really? Yeah, yeah. And were they like what the vending machines are under the health department. Yeah, that's that's the same thing. Wait, so do we do markets ag DOH and USDA?
+
+[37:12] Yeah. Oh, that sounds fun. Yeah. It's not well, you know, to be very honest, we run a really, really tight cleaning. Yeah, they love it.
+
+[37:20] But anytime anytime you do something different, we don't. So the vending machine is like there's there's previous models for this that they understand. In other words, you can point to something and say that. They don't, they just want to know temperature and times and uh monitoring. That's what they're concerned with.
+
+[37:33] Yeah, because I know in the restaurant, like we have this new machine that makes ice that we're that someone else is making for us. Uh he's make he made one, and we're we have one of the first protos. Uh-huh. And that our code compliance person came in and says, I don't understand this, this makes me nervous. What they don't understand, what makes them nervous is that it doesn't they need you need to show how cold we keep the ice 24 hours a day.
+
+[37:56] Also, it's water, so they're probably gonna want to know about your water spacing and all that, no? Like ice machines, ice machines, as you as you know, ice machines have biofilm problems. Yes. So when people are when people think it's an ice machine, they think that there's all these internals that can't be cleaned, and so they're deadly worried about biofilms and stuff building up an ice machine. Yes.
+
+[38:13] So I told the developer, the guy who's making it, I was like, uh, you're not selling an ice machine, you're selling a chest freezer and ice cube trays. And he's like, What? I'm like, trust me, you're not selling an ice machine. Because if you sell an ice machine that's gonna trigger a bunch of bells in this person's head. If it's just a freezer, that's a different set of bells you're triggering.
+
+[38:34] You know what I mean? They're not picking biofilms anymore. Yeah. But it's it's just that simple. We don't know yet.
+
+[38:39] We're waiting actually for our first inspection before we fire the machine up again and we're back to buying ice. Uh the the DOH, just like random inspector. That's the thing. The r like a random inspector comes at DLH. You need to hire someone who specializes in HACSAP plans or something like that that can create a I can do it.
+
+[38:58] Again, it's a guy also Dave was helping with that stuff for a long time. Oh, back in the day. But then the Tozy took it over. Before Christina Tozzi became super famous, Christina Tozi was writing all the hassle plans for all the shows. By the way, people, I want you to know this.
+
+[39:13] I'm extremely angered. The city of New York has started cracking down on people for using the ziploc technique, the zippy technique in their restaurants because they're like, well, you're excluding the oxygen. Jerks! Plastic wrap is also excluding the oxygen. People, you can't win in this freaking world.
+
+[39:30] Someone will try to poop on your parade, no matter what you do. You're just trying to make good stuff, and people will try to get you. It's already ROP. You're already doing ROP. What are they going to do?
+
+[39:40] Well, no, so like okay, so like for years, like here's what happened. Here's what happened. I'll give you a brief rundown. Brief, brief rundown of uh Sous vide and reduced oxygen packaging in New York City. So somewhere in the range of, I can't even remember anymore, like 2006, something like this.
+
+[39:57] Uh Dave Chang opens uh Momafuku Noodle Bar. I didn't know him yet. I met him four. I met him at the end of the day. Right, I was about to say it's when we did 2000.
+
+[40:07] Okay, so it was 2005 when they got hit, right? So I was I had just started a French Culinary Institute, 2005. I'm working on the curriculum for teaching low temperature sous vide cooking. And the country got nailed too. Well, yeah, well, country there were the number two got nailed.
+
+[40:21] So what happened is is that I was, you know, I was there, so I like that's how I met Dave Chang was when he got hit. So the health department comes in, freaks out, says, What the hell are you doing? cuts op makes him cut open all of his bags and pour bleach on of his food and throw it away. He calls me, he's like, What the hell is going on? And like everyone's you know, freaking out over it.
+
+[40:41] Um, and so immediately, because no one at that time, Christina Tosey, I believe, wrote the first HACCP plan that was used in New York for uh WD 50, because WD it was WD50 country, um, noodle bar. Afterwards, uh David Boulet had a uh a summit, if you will, that I went to where they invited Georges Praulou, who's famous guy, uh Sous vide guy. Uh Bruno Gousseau came with his crew, Jouard Berlin, Bruno Bertin, all the guys from Cuisine Solutions came, and a range of chefs who were using this technique came, and the health department came, and then they hit all of the places that that were there. So, like per se got hit, yeah, they all got hit, and no one understood, and the the shakedown was that everyone had to have a Hasset plan, and we were fighting very hard for look, look, you don't want to no like you don't understand what you're asking for when you're asking for a real Hasset plan. Because a real Hasset plan is item by item.
+
+[41:35] I was like, you need procedure-based HACC plans. You know, like we are going to cook a meat. Here is how we do it with the logs and everything, which is eventually kind of the the way it went. Um, but in the meantime, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's everyone figure out ways that we can do things without the vacuum machine so that we can still get all the benefits of low temperature cooking without the hassle of having to deal with a hassle and without freaking out the the health department. This is why I told Philip Press, this is why I got mad.
+
+[42:01] Sous vide Supreme, the home thing came out. That like water bath that came out years ago, and I was like, I wish they hadn't called it Sous vide Supreme because now like it's gonna give me more of a headache because people are keep attaching Sous vide, the vacuum, the stuff that the health department's mad at with the cooking technique, which is all about temperature control, it's different. Then Philip Preston from Polyscience came out with his uh, you know, you know, eight hundred dollar um immersion circulator and called it sous vide professional. I was like, Do you have to, Philip? Do you have to?
+
+[42:30] And so I lost this battle, and everything called everyone calls it sous vide, whatever. But we were working very hard on trying to use techniques that were not sous vide to cook things like protein. So we were doing oil baths, circulated oil baths, we were doing uh, you know, brats in circulated beer, blah blah blah blah blah. And one of our main things to get around this was using Ziploc and then um plastic wrap rolled in tubes, right? So now health department, people have been wrapping meats in in uh in wraps since you know, forever, no one gets mad.
+
+[42:59] And the way Wiley did those boneless chickens, those little chickens, you know. Yeah, those the cannonball techniques. So, like when you're using plastic wrap, there's like two, there's several, but the two basic techniques are the cannonball technique as seen in WD50's chicken thing, where you put the chicken into a thing into plastic wrap, you go twist, twist, twist, twist, twist, you tie off the thing, and you have a cannonball basically that you well, you know, little ones. Bone out of chicken all the way, you you wrap the dark meat with white meat, and then you make into a really tight ball, and what happens is when he poaches it, you slice it, it looks like a breath saver where it's like this perfect little brown center, and like the white and the outside. Yeah, it's nice.
+
+[43:32] It's actually beautiful when they and then the other way is you do it in tubes. So you lay everything uh flat, you transglutaminase, you meat glue that sucker, you roll it up, you know. You don't have to have the meat glue because meat will self set, but the meat glue makes it a nice when you slice. And so uh, you know, we we do this, and so then our code consultant said, and he blamed literally, he said it's the hipsters in Brooklyn what done it, because the health department saw a bunch of restaurants using the zippy technique, ziploc technique, where you you know you put the meat along with some oil in a Ziploc bag, you put it in water, it pushes away most of the extra air, and you do it. And so I was like the oil evenly distributes the heat, is that why?
+
+[44:11] Well, the oil takes up the slack in the bag. So, you know, like if you if you just do uh meat in a bag and you put it underwater, the water doesn't have enough pressure to force itself around the meat everywhere. So if you have a little bit of oil, uh, you know, it's it's a liquid, so it conforms to the bag, and you can get a all like almost no extra air uh in it. Anyway, I got real mad at the code consultant, which is stupid because I'm paying him. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:36] But I was like, I just couldn't believe it that yet another nice thing was taken away from me. Uh so now like the thing is is that when the health inspector comes in, you have to rip open all your ziplocks, because then it's cool. Literally, I had an inspector tell me years ago that I was like, you're telling me that I can put food in a freaking bag, keep it for X number of hours because they were allowing on HACCP for certain things, they were only allowing you 24 hours, right? This is way back in the day, it's gotten a lot better. I was like, you're literally telling me that I can take this food, bag it, cut it open, re-expose it to the atmosphere, bag it again, and you will say it's okay.
+
+[45:14] She was like, Yup. I was like, oh you know what I'm saying? Do you feel any of my pain? I feel all your pain. I just I know, you know, the reason that they the health department and agon markets and USA loves us, I do whatever the hell they want us, they want us to do.
+
+[45:27] Right. But you know, if we have to prove the science, otherwise we will, but uh it's education goes a long way. Because we're not doing a lot of cooking right now. So we just keep it simple. And we have trouble.
+
+[45:38] But they gave us a hard time at first. There was an issue with whose jurisdiction it was, and like the USDA not liking the same. As far as the machines themselves, yeah. Because you have to be USDA, it's not going out of state. Can't you just do state?
+
+[45:44] Yeah, we can. But you do US, is it better? Um I don't think anyone's better than the other one. USCA to me gives me more of a secure feeling that if and when we want to trap uh cross state lines, we don't have an issue with it. Right, because but there's a it's a higher barrier to entry, right?
+
+[46:04] USDA, because why is it that all these producers like we have one plant Ag and Markets, we have one plant USCA, and to be very honest, they both work under the same hours, they both work under the same paperwork and the same everything. Not because they require it, because we require it. Right. But is it the same person blessing it, or is it different people blessing it? Different people blessing it.
+
+[46:20] Yeah. I love the idea that you come in blessing things. Also, you mentioned something that you love being taken away from you. Yes. One thing is coming back, and that is Nastasia's on her way.
+
+[46:32] Oh, Nastasia's almost here? Yeah. Just in time for this uh the show to be over. So do you do any cooking? Do you guys do any cooking?
+
+[46:40] We don't right now because we're building out a new one. I mean, in life for oh, yeah, sure. All right. You ever use a caja china? Because I have a cajina question.
+
+[46:46] Yes, I've burned them to the ground before. Yeah, so many times. Okay, so so okay, so we'll handle the cajina question first. Uh bum bum bum bum bum. Okay.
+
+[46:56] This from Trafton. Uh hey, crew. I'm planning to grill a whole 40 pound lamb in a few weeks and wanted to get your thoughts on the best way to cook it. So 40 pound lamb is what, about three feet long? Uh yeah.
+
+[47:08] Yeah. Depends on the length of bones and stuff like that. Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's what most like most like small. It's small.
+
+[47:14] Yeah. Like it's small, but it's not a baby. A baby lamb is like seventeen, 20 pounds. Like a baby lamb. Baby lamb's 10.
+
+[47:21] 10? Yeah. Really? I mean the baby, like the Easter baby ones, but like a small. But like it's a Greek Easter, they use really small lambs, 10 to 15 pounders, uh, 30 pounders.
+
+[47:30] You know, it just depends on what color. What's the price difference between goat and lamb these days for babies? Same? Same. Same.
+
+[47:36] What do you like better? I love goat. Yeah. I love goat. Baby goat?
+
+[47:40] Uh any goat. Back when I was Mark Ladner made a baby goat pasta dish once, and he didn't use pasta, he used the intestines of the baby goat because it was so milk fed. And the intestines themselves, you turned them inside. It was like eating ricotta cheese. It was he didn't did he do it Greek style on a spit or he was.
+
+[47:56] No, no, no, just in a in a pasta dish. Like you just made it in like a substitute for pasta. It was incredible. I like that Greek style intestine, spit intestine thing. I forget.
+
+[48:06] Stan. So so wait, so we were talking about we're talking about cajacinas. Okay. So uh there so it's a whole 40 pound thing. Let me wait, I had another question about meats.
+
+[48:16] Not fair. I'll read the question. All right. Uh anyway, 40 pound lamb in a few weeks and wanted to get your thoughts on the best way to cook it. Open pit.
+
+[48:22] Uh well, I've looked into a few techniques and I've settled. So he's already settled on this. So we have to recommend based on what he settled on doing. Uh-huh. All right.
+
+[48:30] Uh I settled on using uh oh well, I remember once goat used to be super cheap, and I used to buy from my butcher. Remember Michael, I told you about Michael? He used to he because he would sell goat hacked up to like you know, Jamaican style restaurants. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, But Dave, I'll cut the racks off of you and sell you the racks of goat at a good price.
+
+[48:48] This is back when he used to was giving me lamb belly for free before it became a thing. And for free. For free. Anyway, so then like, you know, he gave me the uh the these like racks of goat, and we would uh low temp them and then flash fry those fuck the suckers, and they were, man, were they good. Rack of goat?
+
+[49:03] Yes. Rack of goat, people, rack of goat. Okay, so back to crafted. Uh I've looked in a few techniques and settled on using a caja china. The game plan is to marinate it overnight and then cook it in the box, which is cottachina is like a box.
+
+[49:16] And you know, you you put the meat into it and then you cook it from above, but it's sealed around with coals. It's a thing. What? The coals are underneath, right? I thought they put them on top.
+
+[49:25] They can put them underneath and on top. The caja chinas, I thought it was the one where you layer the book. Yeah, they do on top, sorry. Yeah. Can we phone a friend on this?
+
+[49:31] Uh the game plan is to marinate it overnight and cook it in the box for about three to four hours. The main downside is that you really can't adjust the heat. That is a downside. Although remember, when you're cooking at high temperatures, like, you know, really, really, the meat is gonna go up to like max temperature like fairly quickly. Uh anyway, uh, can't adjust the heat once it gets going, so I'm worried I'll overcook the loins in the back legs.
+
+[49:52] You will. Yes, yeah, we definitely will. Um I was thinking I could break down, cook those parts separately, and then cook the rest in the box. But I'm open to other ideas and was generally curious about how you would approach it. Thanks and congrats on the bar opening, Trafton.
+
+[50:04] Well, my two cents on this is you will definitely overcook those those parts of it. Uh that's why people hack those things up. If you have a really hot fire, you can do a low fire the whole time, it'll be fun. Right. I mean, but look, the fact of the matter is, like uh younger meat doesn't have like it's it's thinner anyway.
+
+[50:18] You're counting on the fat and the connective tissue melting out to make the mouth feel in that kind of meat anyway, right? I mean, you're gonna inherently I mean, when you're doing those kind of long cooks, you're inherently gonna overcook any like normal dry muscle muscle fibers, right? I mean small animals cook faster, small animals have less fat. Small animals are more delicate to cook, but if they're done correctly, they're quote unquote tastier because they're softer, less connective tissue, less if you would, surprises, uh a caja china and the way it goes. I I would suggest having a set of coals on the side, get something going, you know, check it in an hour or two.
+
+[50:50] There's many cheap probes that you don't even necessarily have to stick in the lamb. You can leave her ambient temperature. But I would keep that temperature around 300 or 275 and just expect it to go a little longer. The reason that cod chinas works so well, uh, in my idea is that they just cook pigs so freaking fast that you can get a 60, 80 pound pig done in less than three hours. I don't have a mental Yeah, that's a good place to look at it.
+
+[51:13] Well, I don't have a mental picture of what lamb skin tastes like. There's no skin on them because lamb lambs that you would get are skinned. There's a lanolin film on the fat all the way around, but the skin itself is not like pork skin, doesn't puff up. There's there's no skin to it. They peel them.
+
+[51:28] So hey, hey, this is important. This is an important point here. The whole point of the Kaichina is the crispy freaking skin. When you do pigs, cooking issues. Right, but my point is, my point is be careful.
+
+[51:39] Like, be careful. Like, you might you might dry this sucker out because you don't have the father. No, I mean the uh the the baby, the lamb. Lemon isn't the lamb because it's not gonna have the crispy skin. It has a lot of fat to it.
+
+[51:54] Lambs in general are fattier than pigs. What I've seen, and the lanolin renders a certain way when you cook it and stuff like that, just to make sure you don't have flare-ups because there's more flare-ups with lamb than pig. Remember, the cod gina is gonna separate the coal from the thing, it's using the radiant heat from above and then the retain then they uh all sorts of things. Well, be careful. Good luck, trafting.
+
+[52:15] Let's know how it works. I got answers by the way to your pickle questions next week. And Quinn wanted to know how hot the tubes can get in a in a spin's all. Real hot. All the way, real hot.
+
+[52:24] Like uh almost boiling. Anyway, uh, that's cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[52:44] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[53:13] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from pretty freaking late this time, actually, Nastasi, right? Uh you know, like you know, uh around the noontime hour until you know, like just before one o'clock from Robert's Picheria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who by the way was here last week, just hiding out in the book. Sure, sure. Liar.
+
+[0:54] Right. Liar, right, David? Yeah, you were here. And joined as usual by Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave?
+
+[0:59] Good, how about you? Hey, uh, doing well. You know who I saw over the week? I saw Jackie Molecules. I saw Jackie Molecules.
+
+[1:03] I think I saw that on the interwebs. Oh, yeah? Yeah. They have such a place on the interwebs where you can trace the the whereabouts and people, yes. He posted us.
+
+[1:13] Nice. Anyway, good to see him. He's uh having fun in DC. I think he misses New York though. Yeah, who wouldn't?
+
+[1:20] Uh shout out to our friends in DC. Although it's just a wow. Love it. It's just as nasty here as it is in DC right now from a from a weather. Weather wise, yeah.
+
+[1:33] Uh well, this is a good segue. How you doing, Stuff? I am completely bent over like stuff that I've learned over the past week. Uh John DeBerry. By the way, uh, call in your questions to 7184972128.
+
+[1:46] That's 7184972128. Uh, speaking of uh the meat vending machines last week, this is not what I'm bent about. Uh he says he's planning on opening some, maybe one in New York, so we can go vend our own meat. Would you get meat out of a vending machine? Yeah.
+
+[2:01] Because you hate people anyway, right? So it's like all the cut them out of the equation. Yeah. Well, it's all the good parts about people, right? Somebody that she knows cares that she doesn't have to interact with.
+
+[2:10] That's like the best of all worlds for Nastasia. For me, like, I'm like uh you like interacting with people. No, it's like I I'm I'm both people at once, right? Sometimes I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just need this because uh, you know, anyone that knows me knows.
+
+[2:23] Like, I am at my rudest, I don't know, rudest, but like most angry when I'm standing behind someone walking slowly. It just bugs me so much. It's like, you know. Remember the woman in uh England? Which woman?
+
+[2:39] Because you just kept talking to her and talking to her about apples. Uh well, we were on a trip to taste apples, you moron. Uh why are you talking about this thing that you came all, you know, you you flew across an ocean to another continent halfway around the world so that you could taste apples and you have the bulls. You have the temerity, you have the chutzpah to talk to this lady about apples. Jerk!
+
+[3:03] What a moron thing to say! I mean, seriously. First of all, I warned you I'm bent. So like I'm on fire. You like wait okay, you're bent, John DeBerry.
+
+[3:13] Alright, right. So uh I was gonna say, like, sometimes I like to interact with people, and then I like to have a normal interaction with people discuss things with them because I'm normally at that point discussing things that are important to me. Like apples or like cheese or things like this. But uh, you know, other times I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me my apples, give me my cheese.
+
+[3:31] I already know what I want, I gotta get out of you know what I mean? Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So like you kind of want the both. Yeah.
+
+[3:36] Oh, look who's back. Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, we're talking about uh Nastasia's favorite pastime. The only like there's two reasons she does this show. One, she cannot turn down free lunches.
+
+[3:48] That's true. She can't turn them down. The other reason is so that she can gawk at people through the studio window uh at the uh at the crew here at Robert's. That's the other reason is she doesn't. Anyway, uh so John Deberry this morning.
+
+[4:03] Uh text John de Barry, by the way, is uh you know, uh writing a book now about uh uh cocktails, was or is I don't know, the the beverage director, Momafuku. I don't know his current title, I don't know. Uh known him for many, many, many years. Uh, you know, he was at PDT, etc. etc.
+
+[4:20] Anyway, uh a bar t a bartending man about town, let's just say. Uh so he sends me a tweet this morning, uh sending me a link to a Washington Post article where everyone is going freaking ape over uh Dragon's Breath. So Dragon's Breath, not Dragon's Beard, the pulled hand pulled cotton candy. Uh only Nick Wong, who is of Chinese extraction, can use uh stereotypical voices in a way that is socially acceptable. Uh anyway, so uh Nastasia like never fails to uh try to get me to be inappropriate, but never fails to try, always fails to succeed.
+
+[5:09] Anyway. Always? I don't believe that. Oh, that kind of that kind of thing? A hundred percent.
+
+[5:14] She's always fails. Like she can get me to cross lots of other lines. There are lots of other lines that all cross. Anyway, you're a habitual line crosser. I believe you were thinking of Peter Kim, our favorite punching bag, and now father.
+
+[5:27] Uh so you can't. Anyway. So, anyways, so John DeBerry sends me this thing, people getting uh all like up in arms about dragon's breath, which is where you take something low in uh low in moisture, like the the classic thing is marshmallows. You put them in liquid nitrogen, and then you freeze them down to liquid nitrogen temperatures. You put them in your mouth while they're still extremely cold, and when you exhale, you get all this condensation cloud, so it looks like you're kind of blowing smoke, right?
+
+[5:55] And uh Nastasi, you've done it a million times. We've done it a million times, like at Harvard or at demonstrations. I've done it with children, I've done it with adults. You know what I'm talking about, right, Sus? Yeah.
+
+[6:04] Yeah, marshmallows, liquid nitrogen. So these people aren't using marshmallows, they're using what amounts to uh crunch berries. You know crunch berries, Nastasia? Like, do you know that did you know that the Captain Crunch Corporation, because everyone likes Crunch Berries so much, it's not Captain Crunch Corporation, the brand, which is what General Mills, who wants Captain Crunch? Uh, they have a box now called Oops All Berries, where it's just yeah, I saw that.
+
+[6:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know who loves that is Booker, obviously. Oops, oops. We didn't know what we was doing, but we put millions of dollars behind the oops, all berries. Anyway, so they take uh oops all berries, looks like to me.
+
+[6:38] Airtight marketing campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oops. Uh, you know, no one wants our oopses, right, Nastasia. We're like, our products are oops, oops, trailing edge technology.
+
+[6:47] Booker and Dax, welcome. Uh so the they take it, they freeze it in liquid nitrogen, and they serve it to youngsters at state fairs. The youngsters put it in their mouth and then they blow out smoke. Now, a couple of problems with uh crunch berries as opposed to marshmallows, is I don't know if you've ever have you ever eaten Captain Crunch? Yeah, it shreds the inside of your mouth.
+
+[7:05] It's it's like eating tiny microplanks. Like, so first of all, when it's that cold, you're probably reducing the sensation of it excoriating your mouth. So I wouldn't choose crunch berries or similar cereal as a thing, but what you do need to choose is something that's low in moisture, because uh, as anybody that has heard me yell about this before, um, things that are extremely dry and contain a lot of air simply don't have enough energy stored in them to damage your to damage your tongue, right? So if I took an ice cube or any sort of water based substance, froze it down to liquid nitrogen temperatures and put it in my mouth, that is like game over, man. Like totally toast, right?
+
+[7:48] Like rip my tongue apart. But a marshmallow, which is air and has very, very little water, has an extremely uh low ALO thermal mass and low specific heat, meaning it can't really do too much to my tongue one way or the other, so that it's a fun party trick to take the marshmallow stick in your mouth, try to blow out the smoke. Yeah, ha ha, everyone loves it, right? And this is the same reason why you can hold one of those marshmallows in in your hand. Now, it's true that uh like this kind of technique was brought by the kind of Spanish wave of uh the Spanish armada of chefs that you know became so popular here, well, worldwide really, but you know, well known in the States in the early 2000s.
+
+[8:28] Um and back in those days, I was served something with too much water that had been put in liquid nitrogen by a Spanish chef, and it blew out my tongue for the whole evening. I was real pissed. I couldn't taste anything, uh, but no, no permanent damage. So anyway, so nothing in particular has happened, but yet everyone is is completely up in arms about this because they say it's dangerous. I'll give you a couple of headlines, and John Berry brought this to my attention uh this morning.
+
+[8:55] I'll give you a couple of of headlines. By uh uh this is by the New York Post. Oh, I hope they came up with a good one. Uh which you know, Public Enemy, a public enemy of the rap group famously said in uh 1991, founded in 1801 by Alexander Hamilton. That's 180 years of continuous F Up news.
+
+[9:12] 190 years of continuous F Up news. Uh America's oldest continuously published daily piece of BS. That was what they said. That's not my by the way, to use our president's terminology, that is not my opinion, that is the opinion of public enemy. Tell people why you'd want to write the headlines for the post.
+
+[9:27] Oh, because they have the best. You met one of their, you met one of their like like when we like right after 9-11 when we um uh first started uh taking on the Taliban, Kabulzai. I mean like that's a freaking great headline. Look, I might take something away from Kabulzai. A strong pun.
+
+[9:46] But tell explain how you think the guy who writes. So here's my uh theory about the New York Post. Uh or you know, the New York Post, what happens is is they have some person who they only call on this person when something happens and they need a headline. So at like 2 a.m., you know, 2 or 3 a.m. something happens.
+
+[10:04] Oh my god, we just we just bombed, you know, Kabul with you know the Taliban, the bring bring uh what? And then they give him the the here's what happened. He's like cabalseye, hands up, and that's it. You know what I mean? Like, this is the guy who you can raise out of any, like rouse out of any deep sleep, give him a give him what happened, and this person such a good punster.
+
+[10:27] Such a good punster that there's a cabulse eye. And I got you the book of New York Post headlines, and they are amazingly good. I can't remember all of them. I like the the Pope one. Oh, too pooped to Pope.
+
+[10:40] When uh, yeah, when when uh Cardinal Ratzinger, you know, now does he still Pope or did he go back to being Ratzinger? Anyway, when he gave up being Pope, their headline, two pooped to pope. They're like, the Pope's resigning. They call him Ring Two poop to Pope. Right back to sleep, because this person doesn't need a second shot.
+
+[11:00] They come right out with the pun. Anyway, uh, so I love the post for that, if not for their uh editorial content. So here's what they say. Uh, you know, the the Pope. Uh sorry, the uh post.
+
+[11:12] Dragon's breath liquid nitrogen cereal is the latest deadly trend. Oh wow. By Natalie O'Neill. Uh this was uh, you know, a couple of weeks ago, or a couple of last week in July. And uh July 31st.
+
+[11:25] Now, Nastasia, correct me if I'm wrong, but for a trend to be deadly, what's the one thing that needs to happen? People die? Yes! Yes! In order for something to be deadly, somebody needs to die.
+
+[11:41] And guess what has not happened? No death. No death. But here's what here's what's not such a good uh headline. Dragon's breath, liquid nitrogen cereal may be somewhat dangerous.
+
+[11:54] Right? I mean, that's what they don't do. So the latest deadly trend. Uh, and then and then the first line: don't get burned by a trendy liquid nitrogen dipped cereal dubbed dragon's breath. Get this, that can melt your mouth and internal organs.
+
+[12:07] Wow. Oh my gosh. So ridiculous. Um I'll go to the Washington Post, which has a longer, still very heated, but not quite as bad. Uh I'll read from the Frim the Washington Post, owned by Nastasia's good friend, Jeff Bezos.
+
+[12:23] Uh teens! They're so great at finding innovative ways to cause bodily harm. First they were eating TI pods, then they were jumping out of moving vehicles to dance to the new Drake song. By the way, uh Nastasia has a SpaceX battery. Or giving themselves frostbite by spraying an entire can of deodorant on their skin, and now they're eating dragon's breath.
+
+[12:47] A snack made with liquid nitrogen that can burn your mouth or cause respiratory distress if inje ingested incorrectly. It should not surprise you to learn that teens are ingesting it incorrectly. First of all, the like the reporting here is just straight false and dumb. Here's what it says. I go dot dot dot later on in the article, and you can look it up on the Washington Post.
+
+[13:06] This was I guess the seventh, which is that today. Uh no, yes. Yeah, okay. That's because when a person's skin or tissue comes into contact with liquid nitrogen, according to the South Florida Sun Sentinel. By the way, the South Florida Sun Sentinel, well known for their scientific reporting.
+
+[13:20] Did you know that, Dave? Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do if you have a question on science or safety, you're gonna want to go to the South Florida Sun Sentinel for the answer. Uh I like how they they actually quote the South Florida Sun Sentinel on this fact.
+
+[13:36] Liquid nitrogen can cause serious burns to skin, cause deadly asphyxiation if inhaled. By the way, if in okay, uh and it's liquid. What do they mean by inhaled? I think what they mean is if you if you put yourself in a pure night nitrogen environment, you will die, right? Anyway, uh if it failed and can damage sight if it splashes or gets rubbed into the eyes.
+
+[13:59] I now have an image of Nastasia holding me down and rubbing liquid nitrogen into my eyes somehow. She has some sort of glow. Disturbing to me. And she somehow can take a liquid which inherently doesn't want to stick to me, and somehow she is able to rub it into my eyes as though it's some sort of grease smear. Uh rub it into your eyes.
+
+[14:14] Shops that sell it post warnings, but they're not always heated. Alright, so uh then it goes on to say that in October, a 14-year-old girl was sent to the hospital after touching the liquid nitrogen in the snack at the Pensacola Interstate Fair. The ER doctor had to cut the thumb open, cut away the dead skin, and get the infection out. The girl's grandmother told a local ABC affiliate. They had said had we not come in and got her finger treated, she could possibly have lost her thumb.
+
+[14:44] Now here's what happened. This is the Washington Post quoting the Sun Sentinel, quoting ABC news coverage of a local ABC affiliate quoting the grandmother, quoting the ER physician about this girl's touching the liquid nitrogen, right? Now, so like that is the level, and this this quote cycle has happened multiple times. So here's what happens, people. Liquid nitrogen is used on purpose by dermatologists on the daily to freeze warts and such not on your skin.
+
+[15:19] And inside your cervix. Okay. Okay. Uh okay. Uh you know, FYI.
+
+[15:26] FYI. Uh now, if someone improperly did this and left liquid nitrogen in the cup, and this little girl grabbed a hold of the cup. By the way, I've seen pictures of the cup. The cups are plastic, so they're not inherently dangerous in the way metal is because plastic also has uh lows, you know, low specific heat, low thermal uh mass. So you probably would feel that it is cold in time to drop the cup.
+
+[15:50] I this is coming from someone myself who who on the regular puts my hand into liquid nitrogen, gets it splashed on me on a daily basis, okay? If you pick up briefly, touch a plastic cup, your hands will register this. Oh, cold. Release. Now, if this little girl has the like the awesomeness to be like, I'm not letting go of my freaking uh dragon's breath candy, it's possible that she could get uh frostbite on her finger.
+
+[16:20] I have gotten like frostbite on my hands from extended contact with metal containers, much more dangerous. Very easy to get uh a lot of frostbite with uh metal containers and liquid nitrogen, and that's happened to me too. The worst I've ever had, and this is someone who deals with it on a daily basis, daily daily basis, uh, was uh I lost feeling in my thumb for about I don't know, three, four days. Anyway, so uh so let's say that she does have some sort of like localized bad contact burn from the liquid nitrogen, which I I feel bad about. That shouldn't have happened, that was an incorrect operator, right?
+
+[16:54] Uh so the grandmother is saying that, see, this is why it's so inaccurate. The grandmother says that the kid has an infection. There's no such bacteria on Earth that says, hey, yo, uh little girl's got uh like some frostbite on her finger. Let's have an infection happen in the time it takes grandma to get her to the ER, right? So like there's clearly, and I'm not trying to say anything, like clearly the grandma was uh freaked out, the kid had a problem, kid went to the ER.
+
+[17:21] Not disputing any of this, but the language built around it that somehow she had an infection due to this, and that her thumb was gonna get lost. Who knows what the doctor said to the grandma, what the grandma said to the ABC local affiliate, who was then quoted by the Sun Sentinel, which then goes into the Magisterial Washington Post, right? And then Bezos, uh, then uh they quote another thing. In late July, it's always Florida, Nastasia. I know.
+
+[17:44] In late July, a mother. Yeah, it what'd he say? Florida man. Yeah. It's gonna be a good story when it starts off with Florida man.
+
+[17:54] Yeah, well, in late July, a mother in St. Augustine, Florida took her son to the ER af listen to the way that this is written. Took her son to the ER after the dragon's breath, here it is, triggered a this triggered me when I read it. By the way, uh, triggered a massive asthma attack. Here's this.
+
+[18:15] Inside edition is who they're quoting here. Spoke with a young man who inadvertently burned the inside of his mouth until it bled. Alright, so we're what we're now down to inside edition. So I I went and yeah, because the Captain Crunch. You eat too much Captain Crunch without milk, which is why I tell Booker you should put some milk on that freaking thing to soften it up.
+
+[18:35] Otherwise, you're you know, you're taking sandpaper to the inside of your freaking mouth. By the way, I've eaten kiwis until my mouth bled, right? And no one's like, oh my god, Kiwis! Don't do it! Or like, you know, uh the warhead challenge where people are eating warheads until their mouth bleeds because they're consuming so much acid.
+
+[18:50] No one's like, ban war. Well, I guess people are like banned warheads, but anyway, uh, warheads, good candy in moderation. So I went on to read uh both the Sun Sentinels coverage of the local ABC affiliate, which I've already gone gone into. And by the way, I don't even think she spoke to the ABC thing. The grandmother told Facebook the story.
+
+[19:09] So we're looking at a Facebook through like like ABC got to the story through Facebook. Uh the Russian, Russian, fake news Russians. Uh, okay. Uh uh. Oh my god.
+
+[19:22] Uh here's the one with the with Oh no, this is the asthma one. Okay. So, uh, we're in St. Augustine. Mother goes on Facebook, tells how her son Johnny tried the treat at a kiosk inside the Avenues Mall in Jacksonville, Florida.
+
+[19:38] He has mild asthma, she said. But on the 40 minute drive home, he started coughing uncontrollably and had trouble breathing. So here's a little bit of a I'm sure you guys have heard of this. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, right? Uh after this, therefore because of this.
+
+[19:54] Lady shows up at the Avenues Mall with her son Johnny. Says, Johnny's like, Ma! I want the dragon's breath, Ma! She gets him this thing. Johnny has mild asthma.
+
+[20:07] Now, keep in mind, it's the summertime, and Johnny's in St. Augustine, Florida. You think maybe that's causing the asthma? Anyway. He's on a 40-minute dry home in who knows what kind of air conditioned car after having been to the Mall of America.
+
+[20:22] But what happens is the kid has an asthma attack, right? Uh, and he goes to the nearest fire station, and I mean, I don't know my hospital, I don't know, fire station, and paramedics stabilized the boy for the trip to the hospital. He's treated and he's doing fine, right? So the mother's like, you know what must have caused that asthma attack, Nastasia? Dragon's breath.
+
+[20:41] Dragon's breath, obviously, because it's the only new thing I saw today. That or his vaccines. Yeah, or what's up, conspiracy theorist? Love it. So my point is is that look, I was when I was a kid, I was that Johnny, right?
+
+[20:54] I had asthma, would go into uncontrollable asthma attacks. That might be the title of the episode today. I was that Johnny. I was that Johnny, right? But I didn't have the benefit when I was a child of seeing anything new because I grew up in the 70s when there was nothing new but bell bottoms.
+
+[21:10] Bell bottoms triggered my asthma attack. You know what I mean? And quite quite a number of times. This was in the days before inhalers. I would have to go to the hospital and get jacked up on epinephrine.
+
+[21:22] You think I'm going crazy now. You should have seen me when I was jacked up on epinephrine as a freaking nine-year-old in like 1979 or 1980, right? Right? That is a kid that's all jacked up and bent out of shape, right? Uh so a little bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc makes it into the Washington Post as Dragon's Breath Causes asthma.
+
+[21:44] So as we can see, uh, are there dangers to liquid nitrogen? Yes. Uh is anything that was written in this article true? No. And it just goes to show that, I mean, look, that one girl's finger was burned, I'm sure, right?
+
+[21:59] That's possible and probable, but like the c like the like imputing all these dangers to the snack wrong. Some guy on whatever it was, like Insta jerk YouTube or whatever it was, like his mouth bleeds after he eats like 18 boatloads of uh oops, all berries that have been frozen to lick liquid nitrogen temperature. Plausible, it's on the berries, right? John DeBerry's on the berries, and then uh, you know, uh, kid has asthma attack. I I understand how scary it is to have an asthma attack as someone who was hospitalized multiple times with asthma as a child.
+
+[22:32] It's super scary. But to blame it on the liquid nitrogen, just nothing to back that up. So we have just a whole bunch of garbage that's being piled upon. But you know who's gonna pay for it? Anyone out there cooking with or using liquid nitrogen, or frankly, anyone doing anything new or or innovative or interesting at all.
+
+[22:50] Because when the S hits the F, right? It's the people doing the new stuff that get hosed the hardest. Like, you want to take a commercial break and come back with more of me being angry about stuff. You read my mind. That was alrighty.
+
+[23:01] I'm back with more anger on cooking issues. It's time for our Bob's Red Mill moment where we put Nastasia's cooking improvisational skills to the test. This week's secret ingredient is organic oats. Now, which one are we gonna do here? Because we Bob's Red Mill has various different oats.
+
+[23:27] They have your standard flaked oats, they have your steel cut oats, right? Steel oats. Steel cut? Yeah. Do you like steel cut oats?
+
+[23:35] I've had them in my house. Okay. So as you all know, steel cut oats are the ones that still look like oats. They haven't been flaked out. They take longer to cook.
+
+[23:44] They got more texture than your regular flaked oats. All right, Nastasia, tell us what you'd make. Oatmeal for one. Wow, that's super interesting. You know, people, this is what I have to work with.
+
+[23:55] So steel cut oats are good if you want to maintain. I like traditional texture of steel cut oats. It's not the kind of standard oat that you get. Um, but I think it's a very good, um, it's a very good changeup to kind of the flaked oats. And steel cut oats are also very good in recipes like scrapple or in like a traditional uh haggis kind of a situation where you want them to absorb moisture over long period of time.
+
+[24:22] Uh I like them a lot. They're good. Thanks to Bob's Redmill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code cooking25 for 25% off your order.
+
+[24:35] That's cooking, no space, the number two, the number five. And we're back. Uh by the way, what? Those are painful, huh? All right.
+
+[24:43] Well, yeah. Oh, payable because the Sazi's like, I would take the oats and I will make oatmeal with it. No, those are my favorite where it's blank for one. Yeah, yeah, oatmeal for one. Yeah, you know what?
+
+[24:54] Whatever. Also, everybody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If you have anything you need to do at night, you're like, she's like, you crimp in my plans.
+
+[25:01] She's like, oatmeal for one, you crimp in my plans. I'm watching Bachelorette with the girls. Anyway. Wait, I want to say one thing. All right.
+
+[25:11] I have nothing to do with the bar. Please don't ask me for reservations. I only drink for free. She does drink for free. That is true.
+
+[25:19] By the way, Darren wrote in uh a comment about Koji asking us about uh Koji and stocks and clarification. I called in uh our you know uh resident uh Koji expert, our cook quest, Rich She, and he is not he's not been able to get his expert on this particular thing. So uh Darren, hopefully we'll get you your information soon. Should I do the anger or should I do the question? Question, then anger?
+
+[25:43] Yeah, question first, then anger. Question and anger. All right. Uh see if I can get I gotta mellow out and then get wound back up later, right? That's good, right?
+
+[25:50] Otherwise, it's like too much blood pressure. Too much anger, too much anger. People don't want it to be a good thing. Yeah, you're stressing me out. I'm stressing you.
+
+[25:55] I'm stressing you out. When you live in Brooklyn, so that takes a lot. You know what I mean? Um so Davide writes in uh so this is a question about, by the way, about uh pickles, right? So uh for those of you that have not lived or like don't exist on the planet Earth, like uh pickles are a means not only to make something delicious, but to take something that is you know, in season or right now and preserve it for later.
+
+[26:18] So you can have your sweet pickles, you can have your lactic acid pickles, you can have your vinegar pickles, blah, blah, blah. And so this question is a question a user, uh you know, listener asked us about chef's chef steps.com, their pickling recipes. Okay. How do I go low on sugar, acid, and temperature? Everyone wants to go low on all that, right?
+
+[26:38] Because they want to pickle, but they want something that's as close to the uh original product as possible, right? This is by the way, this is how a lot of traditional uh things like uh ham, right? How dry-cured ham has gotten muted, uh mutated into kind of city hams because as technology improves, people tend to want things with less of a cure dried and or whatever. Anyway, uh I digress. Uh how low can I go on sugar, acid, and temperature when home canning fruit while still having a safe product.
+
+[27:07] I'm a big fan of Chef Steps sous-vide uh pickling recipes and techniques, uh, and I use it regularly for vegetables, vegetables. However, my family doesn't love the taste of a vinegar-based sweet brine for fruit, and I've been looking for a lemon juice-based alternative. Straight up subbing lemon for vinegar would be safe. Well, that's true because lemon juice, well, I don't know about the pH, but the the actual like acidity levels are in the same range. I don't actually know the pH of vinegar, uh, 5% vinegar.
+
+[27:36] But uh, it would be too acidic and overwhelmingly flavored. I won't second guess Douglas Baldwin's calculations on the parameters of the brine, which is a bricks of 38, meaning uh out of every kilo of brine, 38 or 380 grams of that would be uh sugar, uh the balanced water, and a pH of 3.2. By the way, Douglas Baldwin uh is a professor of mathematics is somewhere in Colorado, or at least was the last time I saw him, and um he um he did a lot of the early uh calculations where he kind of solved simplified versions of of the differential equations involved for sous-vide cooking, and his initial calculations are what a lot of the sous vide calculators uh that you find on you know on the app store on the internet are based on. So he has a long history in in doing the math and actually figuring out what's going on in food safety and in uh sous vide cooking in general. And he he partnered with Nathan Mirvold back in the modernist cuisine days and is working with uh Chef Steps uh at the time.
+
+[28:37] So in other words, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this. Uh I won't second guess Douglas Baldwin's calculations on the parameters of the brine, but it seems to me it was meant to be safe, in other words, Douglas Baldwin's recipe was uh meant to be safe regardless of the relative proportions of fruit to brine and the size of the produce uh that you use, which makes sense when publishing a recipe for the mass audience. But I assume it can be tweaked a bit. I'm not an expert, uh, but I know my way around a logarithm. So basically uh he's just shooting for um, he's giving a bunch of parameters, which I won't give you here because they're gonna you know bore you to bore you to tears probably, uh, and you probably forget them.
+
+[29:13] Although should I? Nah. No, no, no. We got 10 minutes, so user time wisely. You know what?
+
+[29:18] You know what? Uh so basically he's redu the point that uh Daviday is trying to make, right, is that he's going to increase the uh pH, right, to get it just into the levels where it's safe, right? So he's gonna try to get uh a 3.4 pH brine by t and uh a certain bricks level. I forget what he was shooting for, but he's gonna get a certain bricks level by actually calculating how much fruit that he's gonna add, right? And what the pH of the brine is going to be, and trying to figure out the equilibrium between the fruit and the brine, right?
+
+[29:52] So the argument here is that you overdo the brine because the fruit that you add to it is assumed to have uh a pH, you know, you know, basically be a pH of seven neutral, which is not true, they're almost always acidic, uh, and have no sugar, which is also almost not true, almost always not true. And if you're adding a whole bunch of brine, right, like imagine you added you know one gram of fruit to a kilo of brine. Obviously, that gram of fruit is not gonna push the pH one way or the other. So he's arguing that by controlling these things better, you can make a safe product. Um rather than me second guessing Chef Steps, uh I called Chris Young, we played a bunch of phone tag, he graciously got in touch with Charlie Shaw, the food scientist at Chef Steps and Douglas Baldwin, and they uh got back to us with an answer.
+
+[30:39] So I will read it to you. Uh we put our heads together, that is uh Charlie Shaw and Douglas Baldwin. We put our heads together, and here's what we were thinking. Uh Davide is right, he can reduce the acidity on the bricks and still make a safe product. What he may be compromising on as he reduces uh uh is uh is he reduces the shelf life, especially at room temperature.
+
+[30:57] Uh the shelf life should be fairly long in the fridge. Shelf life is awfully hard to predict and may depend on the fruit, veg spices used, the workspace where he's working, etc. etc. The brine that David uh proposed only brings the water activity down to 0.95%. That's not enough to help too much when it comes to shelf life.
+
+[31:16] So if shelf life is important and you like a lower level of sweetness, uh you should in so if you want a low sweetness, you should increase the amount of time you're cooking it because he only wants to cook it at 75 degrees Celsius. So here's another thing when you're cooking something, there's there's it's this is the multiple hurdle effect. So you have one hurdle is temperature, right? So you're cooking something to a specific temperature to kill bacteria. Uh some of that bacteria is harmful, and some of that bacteria just reduces the shelf life.
+
+[31:43] You're also increasing the acidity because the acidity, lowering the pH, is a hurdle that bacteria have to jump over to start multiplying. You're also incre decreasing the water activity by increasing the sugar. So that is uh also inhibiting the bacteria, multiple levels of inhibition. So there's inhibition to make a product safe, and there's inhibition to stop spoilage, i.e. increase uh in improve the shelf life.
+
+[32:04] Uh at the final equal equilibrium of 85 degrees, uh they recommend 85 degrees Celsius for two minutes at the brine that they're proposing. That's just getting in the weeds a little bit. But it's it was it, but he wants to do it at 75. The reason 85C is used for these vegetables. 85C is where the government publishes the curves of how things are, or at least where Chef Steps has their curves of how bacteria get killed.
+
+[32:30] At 85C, cook for a long time, pectin will break down. If pectin breaks down, you could add calcium. I think he said he didn't want to. You could add calcium to strengthen the pectin so that at 85C, you're not getting any pectin softening. But if you don't want to add calcium because of flavor issues, right, and you don't want to cook at 85C because you're worried about softening it, you can drop it to 75 C, especially if you add a little calcium and not get uh you know radical softening of the pectin in fruit and vegetables.
+
+[32:55] However, uh when you're when you are killing things, right? First of all, you have to measure the core temperature, which you can't possibly know unless you have uh a rig that you've tested with beforehand, right? So you you need to know how long you're cooking the core inside the inside of your jar, right? So let's say you have something that's 85 degrees C, a thermal uh death curve. It's called a thermal death curve, and you're looking for a certain D level, i.e., a D level is um one D means that I've killed 90% uh of the bacteria that are involved.
+
+[33:25] So then you do that again. Uh you reduce by a factor of 10 attacked or 10 factor of 10. So a lot of people look get dead D, throw some D's on it, just put a key lick, throw some D's on it. Anyway, so uh you want about a 5D, which is like a five log log reduction. Now here's the other problem.
+
+[33:41] When you shift that thermal curve, right, when you're no longer looking at 85, there's what's called a Z level. And the Z level is how fast that thermal curve shoots up or down one log level. So uh so Douglas Baldwin and you know Shaw, they assume that most bacteria that you're looking at have a Z a Z number of roughly between five and ten degrees. So he wants to cook uh something uh that's 10 degrees below the recommended temperature, the temperature they have a curve for. So let's say that the Z is 10.
+
+[34:13] That means at 75 degrees C, it takes 10 times longer to get the same level of bacterial death. So if it was one minute at 85 or two minutes at 85, it's gonna be 20 minutes, right? But uh an equally valid curve might be five. So every five degrees lower you are 10 uh, you know, a factor of 10 longer, in which case it would take 200 minutes, right? So in order to be safe at those levels at 75 degrees C with those lower numbers, you would have to cook it for a much longer time on the order of a hundred times longer, right?
+
+[34:42] And so if that's acceptable to you, that's fine. Just be aware that when you're looking at Z values, you can't keep going on down infinity. There's a certain point at which bacteria begin dying, and only then are Z values uh only actually even further up into that curve they become valid because you could continue lowering 10 degrees and all of a sudden you're in in a bacterial growth zone. So Z values only work for like one or two Z levels, not for infinite Z levels. Maybe they work for one or two Z levels.
+
+[35:12] It also depends on where in the curve you hit. Anyway, long answer short. So do I have any anger time left or no? Three minutes. You got time for a quick call, actually.
+
+[35:20] Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, uh, Dave. I was just wondering uh if you could real quick since I know you have to go, um, talk about any Ethiopian cookbooks that you would recommend. And um Yeah. Oh, I don't have any Ethiopian cookbooks.
+
+[35:34] Um and therefore I cannot recommend them. But now you have made me think, I cannot believe that I don't have any Ethiopian cookbooks. I have recipes with Ethiopian, I have books with Ethiopian recipes in them, but I have no um a hundred percent Ethiopian cookbook. I'm sure they are out there now. It has been at least ten years since I uh last looked for them.
+
+[36:00] Uh at least ten. And so uh I mean it w it's been twenty years since I've lived in a neighborhood that had, you know, a huge density of Ethiopian restaurants, such that I was eating eating Ethiopian food once or twice a week. Back then, in the late 90s, there were to my knowledge no uh Ethiopian cookbooks around. There were, you know, Jessica Harris had books with Ethiopian recipes in it, but there were no Ethiopian cookbooks. It was only recently, like the past maybe 10 years that they've we've had like uh recipe, you know, uh books that are exclusively, let's say, Senegalese food.
+
+[36:34] Uh, I'm sure they are there now, and I feel incredibly embarrassed that I don't have one at the at the tip of my tongue. I'll ask Peter, who's spent uh Peter Kim, who spent a lot of time in Ethiopia because his wife was posted there uh at the UN. I'm sure he would know. And I'll get I'll definitely get that information up and either put it on Twitter or talk about it um next week. I mean, I love Ethiopian food.
+
+[36:55] I mean, Ethiopian food is so awesome. Um, did you have any that you have that you don't like? Uh no, I just moved to a neighborhood with a lot of Ethiopian uh cuisine, and uh my rent went way up, and so I'm looking at making like more like lentil pulses kind of dishes. So I thought that that would be a good solution. And you're gonna go about making your own injira?
+
+[37:19] I have not. Uh but that's something that I heard is very challenging to do. Yeah, I mean, people say it's challenging. I've never tried it. I don't know.
+
+[37:28] I mean, the the thing is that the the grain, the grain that makes uh injira one of the grains that make like most people don't do it. It's Tef. Let's say it's Tef. Right, right. So um, by the way, you know, you know who sells Teff, don't you?
+
+[37:41] You know who sells Teff? Hey Dave in the booth, you know who sells Teff? Bob's Red Mill. You are correct. Uh so you can get Tef from Bob's Red Mill.
+
+[37:50] Most people do not do 100% Teff in Jira. So Tef is sourdough, so it depends on how sour you want it. Um what's it called? Oh my god, the name just went out of my head that Karen works for up in uh Bournath up in uh hotbread kitchen, hot bread kitchen. They do a hundred percent injira teff that's real sour that I you know I like, but most of the, you know, most of the uh injira that I used to get in my old neighborhood was not like hyper sour.
+
+[38:14] So, you know, for those of you that never had Ethiopian cuisine, it's kind of like uh imagine a cross between a large floppy crepe and kind of like a crumpet, right? Because it's got the bubbles on the one side, it's floppy, kind of like a crepe, so it's not like crispy like a dose. And then it's fantastic. But to me, like I would worry about that, get some teff and think about that. Um I'm sure online there's a bunch of people who like have uh Injira stuff.
+
+[38:40] Are you are you more interested in just the mains? Or do you I mean to me, Ethiopian food without injira is like is like nostasia without hatred. You know what I mean? It just doesn't work. You like that?
+
+[38:52] Uh anyway, I'm being told that I have to get off the freaking air. I'll try to find some Ethiopian cookbooks, and if not, obviously suggestion, what? We'll talk to Peter. And we'll talk to Peter and we'll we'll uh we'll answer that next week, and I'll get to my anger about Ziploc bags and reduced oxygen packaging and the New York City Department of Health. I'll reserve my anger for next week so you can be stay tuned for more anger if you tune in next week on cooking issues.
+
+[39:22] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[39:42] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[40:07] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Listen up, hunters and anglers. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife just made the upcoming season a lot easier. The new MyWDFW mobile app is here, and it's your all-in-one tool for the 2026-27 license year. Buy your licenses, see your hunting and fishing licenses, tag your elk, deer, turkey, even black bear. All on your phone.
+
+[0:17] Harvest reporting and catch record cards have never been easier with the offline mode. No more lost tags, waiting for mail. It's all on your phone. Just tap tag and enjoy the great outdoors. Download the My WDFW app today.
+
+[0:28] Available in the Apple App Store or Google Play. Washington's Wild just got a lot easier to enjoy. This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob's Redmill.com to shop their huge range of products.
+
+[0:49] Use the code Cooking25 for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Well, really freaking late today. Uh from Robert's P3 and Bushwick Brrrrkl.
+
+[1:14] Join uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Joined as usual, Mysterio by Nastasi the Hammer Lopez. And Dave in the booth. What up? So we gotta take a break.
+
+[1:25] Hold on. We'll be right back. And special guest, Paul Adams from uh what are you the you're the grand vizier of online cooking Baron? Yeah. Not online.
+
+[1:36] All a ma all cooks illustrated. Cooks illustrated. All of it, not the online. Right. You're the editor of the whole thing.
+
+[1:44] The science editor. Science editor. Oh, the magazine? Yeah. Nice.
+
+[1:48] And online. And online. All. Yes. All so.
+
+[1:53] If I have TV also. Oh, cool. If there is content and there is science involved, you are the editor of this. Yes. He's the guy.
+
+[2:01] Yeah. Alright. The one and only. Uh now you have that pr Prince song going through my head. But he wasn't Prince at the time.
+
+[2:06] He was that squiggle shape. When that song came out. My name is Prince. You know that song? You know that song?
+
+[2:14] But actually he says my name is Prince, but wasn't that on the album where his name in fact was not Prince? Where his name was Symbol. Yeah. Yeah, where his name was The Artist Formerly Known As. I believe that that was spotted a discrepancy.
+
+[2:25] I believe that was the first album where that happened. Dave. Are you trying to say you just outsmarted Prince? Uh I would never say that. I would never I would never ever say that.
+
+[2:35] I used to sing that song to myself in German. How does it go? I don't remember. You remember that. I'm sure you remember.
+
+[2:43] Yeah, you do. It's a lie. Uh I people see right through that. People, I have lied to you. Uh I do.
+
+[2:49] I do I do in fact remember it. Uh well then, let's go. Uh there einsen einzig. No, no, no, no. Kaiser Prince.
+
+[2:58] Yeah, yeah, no, no, I like uh no no no no no no, not gonna do it. You did it. Yeah, yeah. Verletz mich! Injure me.
+
+[3:09] Where he says hurt me, hurt me! You know that song? German's just not sexy enough for Prince. Oh, so sexy. Germany.
+
+[3:15] I don't know. I've made it up. I would always say I would always just say funkish, yeah. Und ich bin funkish. Funkerschen.
+
+[3:23] Heiser Kunst, der Einz und Einzig verletzt mich. My friend is in Berlin this week and she's staying at Pension Funk. Oh, nice, I like that. Well, funk, you know, like uh that I forget what that means. It has something to do with the telecommunications, right?
+
+[3:39] No, it means funk. No, it doesn't mean funk. Also, I forget whether it I never remember and these days I can't remember anymore whether I can't tell whether I'm supposed to use a mech or a mirror anymore, you know. I know. It's been like so long.
+
+[3:51] Did you do German back in the day, Paul? Yep. Yeah. A little bit. You can't remember that stuff, right?
+
+[3:56] Because the great thing about German, a great thing about learning German is is it's fundamentally completely rule-based. So for a rule-based person such as myself, it's incredibly easy to learn. Also incredibly easy to forget. You're a rule-based person? I mean Isn't isn't time a rule?
+
+[4:12] Time is not on my side. No, it is not. But the the no what happened to me today was I was going to be my normal amount late, and the subway was like, hey, you know what? Why don't we just not stop it flushing? Which is the stop that I get off here.
+
+[4:27] So you're blaming it on the subway. Uh blaming it on the rain, actually. Uh there is no rain. There's no rain. Uh I mean.
+
+[4:36] It's all my fault. I mean, that's the thing. It's all my fault, but I'm not telling you. That's all I wanted to hear. Yeah, if I asked me telling you, you know.
+
+[4:43] Thank you. You're growing up now. How I messed up, but yes, like or like, you know, what miscalculations I made. At the end of the day, it's all my fault. Um interesting fact, Paul.
+
+[4:53] Nastasia, I'm sure does not care. And I don't know, Dave, whether you'll care, you have to tell me. But uh when I was a kid, I am one of the last generations that grew up with red pistachio nuts. Do either of you guys remember red pistachio nuts? Totally.
+
+[5:07] I remember the bags of them, but we didn't buy them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So like they were phasing out, you know. Paul clearly remembers them, Dave does not.
+
+[5:14] So in the 70s and mid 80s, right? When you bought pistachio nuts, they were red. I'm not talking like like rosy. I mean completely soaked, dyed red with red food coloring. Like so much so that, and I used to, but I mean pistachios, let's face it, pistachios are the best nut to like in terms of like flavor.
+
+[5:38] I mean, pistachios are good. I mean, like we can have an argument. They're great. Pistachios are great. Juicy.
+
+[5:44] They have a good taste. They taste like pistachios, which is a win. You know what I mean? But conversely, a bad pistachio, one that's been shriveled or moldy or has its sweet aflatoxin on it, is like one of the worst things you could put in your mouth. Like one of those shriveled pistachios when you get one in your mouth is like a horror show, right?
+
+[5:59] So it's like shriveled nuts in your mouth, never good. Whoa, family show. What? What are you talking about? Why do they dye them red?
+
+[6:09] Well, that's where I'm getting to. So this dye also was not very high quality dye, Paul, if you remember. It was like it would come off on your hands. Well, it depends on what you look for in a dye. Well, I look for it to say.
+
+[6:19] In those days, you wanted them to come off in your hands. Really? Yeah. I mean, my hands were like half the thrill of eating pistachios. My hands and face were perpetually stained red because also I'm too lazy to pick them apart with my hands, so I grab it with my hand, place it on my tooth, rip it open, spit the other shell out, suck the nut and go.
+
+[6:36] Right. So I I I was red all over. I was like suck the nut and go. Oh my God. I was like Nastasia Lopez was the time we got FNDC blue number whatever it was, dye, and I told her not to touch it, and I came back from lunch and her entire face was blue, like she was freaking Violet Beauregard from Willy Wonka.
+
+[6:53] It was amazing. Uh but so like I used to uh I wish I had taken photos here. You shouldn't have touched it, and I said I didn't. And she's like, go look in the finger. Uh yeah.
+
+[7:05] And like that's also like my that was my favorite part of um the modernist cuisine. The original book was the story they talk about in the submarine. Remember that? Yeah. Remember that, Paul?
+
+[7:14] No, I don't. So it's the best part of the book. Yeah, it's the best part of the book. And so what happens is is they're recounting a story of that uh naval doctor did where they got everyone on the submarine to come in for a checkup, ostensibly, of their posterior portions, right? To I don't know what they were like what they lied and said they were testing for.
+
+[7:36] Really all they were doing is swabbing the sailors' butts with uh phosphorescent dye. They then waited like a day or two and then went around their their buttholes. Yeah. Yeah, with phosphorescent dye. They then went around the sub with a with a light, with a black light, and were looking for the phosphor, and the entire inside of the submarine like lit up like a freaking Christmas tree with a black light.
+
+[8:02] So like and like when I read that, I was like, oh, people, they gross. By the way, it's not sailors, it's people. You know what I mean? Like, uh, so like and everyone assumes, oh, it's you know, this is the classic Nastasia mistake. She's like, my germs are okay.
+
+[8:17] It's everyone else's germs that are no good. And everyone thinks that it's like prisoner's dilemma of germs. And so the entire inside of the submarine is completely coated with with uh poop phosphor, which is an amazing. I mean, clearly the best clearly that's the only takeaway from all of modernist cuisine that Nastasi and I had was poop on the submarine. Alright, so we gotta take a quick break.
+
+[8:40] Gotta finish pistachios. So pistachios were always dyed red, and here's what happened. I read about it. So pistachios that we used to get were from Iran. That's where the majority of the pistachios were grown.
+
+[8:51] They were imported into the United States. And the traditional harvesting method to get pistachio nuts in um in Iran left uh blemishes on like stain, literal stains on the outside shells of the nuts. And so because Americans in the 70s, and I guess before, or maybe even Iranian uh consumers, I don't know, didn't want to buy nuts that looked stained, probably with human fingerprints or something else equally horrible to go back to the poop story. Blood blood, they stained them bright red because the bright red apparently covered up all the stains and it was all good. Uh so enter when um the revolution happened in Iran, they took the hostages, there's an embargo on Iranian nuts.
+
+[9:31] Uh and for a while Californians were dying them like the Iranians did. However, the methods of harvesting used in California do not cause stains on the nets, and so everyone was like, we don't need the dieties nuts no more. And that's why pistachio nuts aren't red any longer. Alright, we'll take a break, come back with more cooking issues. Hey yo, Nastachia, it's time for our Bob's Red Mill moment where I put your cooking improvisational skills to the test.
+
+[10:05] This week's secret ingredient is all purpose flour, meaning it has all purposes, any purpose. You want to clean your car, all purpose flour. Nastasia, tell us what you'd make. Um, I would make chicken picata. What?
+
+[10:19] That's what you call out AP flour for? I would have no other use for AP flour in my house other than putting it on chicken. You wait, let me get this straight. Yeah. You literally have no reason to have flour in your house other than that.
+
+[10:32] Other than to you're not like not only are you not gonna bake with it, right? But but the only thing that you ever put a coating on before you fry up is chicken. Yes. And not even like fake salting boca. Like I love a chicken.
+
+[10:51] Do you ever make the fake chicken salting boca? You know salty boca alla Romano, right? The veal cutlet with the prosciutto and the and the sage. It's called salty boca because do you remember Italian? Because what?
+
+[11:01] Something in the mouth. It jumps in the mouth. Thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code cooking25 for 25% off your order.
+
+[11:15] That's cooking, no space, the number two, the number five. Alright, so more on this. Some more on this. Nastasia. I have no idea.
+
+[11:24] Nastassi. Oh yeah, we can edit it out half of the diatribe where we're yelling at each other. But well, I mean, then if I didn't, the ad would be longer than the show, especially with your arrival times. Oh. Times.
+
+[11:37] Time. Well, no, you showed up early. Well, I don't know when you showed up. Oh, I meant like just Dave over the course of forever. Oh, freaking Hustino on a stick, man.
+
+[11:46] You know what I mean? Like, you know, you know, you you live here over a river. Anyway, my point is that uh I don't what do you mean you don't know what that means? We we literally have to travel over a river to make it here. I don't yeah, whatever.
+
+[12:00] Anyway, so like like over the river and through the freaking woods. Anyway, point being uh that Nastasia, one of the things Nastasi, I don't think you've played this ad yet, but one of the things Nastasi was supposed to do for Bob's Red Mill was uh faro. And I made it hold on a second. I pronounce it pharaoh to bother Nastasia, even though I know it's pronounced faro. Just just to tick her up.
+
+[12:21] Is it? Because I've I keep hearing both. It's far. It's faro. Alright.
+
+[12:24] Anyway, but like, like when you use it foreign ingredient that's not really fully like Americanized yet, you use the original pronunciation until proven otherwise. No, Nastasia? Mm-hmm. Anyway. So, and say it like Chesray would say it.
+
+[12:38] No. Come on. No, tell the story. Anyway. So Nastashi.
+
+[12:45] So, like uh Nastasia comes in and pretends to have cooked something with Faro. Like, I had done all these recipes like I was supposed to. She comes in and her pretend recipe was the worst pretend recipe on earth. No, she made a different one. So she takes like this photo.
+
+[13:00] She takes there's a photo. We can prove it. She can tweet it out of what she made with Faro. Uh she chooses my two least favorite things. Chunks, huge chunks of just a hacked up eggplant, which I love eggplant.
+
+[13:15] No, they were the mini ones. Okay. Alright, that's more of a win. And summer freaking squash. Like just chunks of summer freaking squash and far.
+
+[13:25] And I guarantee you. And fridge cheese. Did you grow those? I like how fresh cheese. Yeah.
+
+[13:30] I like how Nastasia has a whole category, fridge cheese. It's like the cheese that's been sitting in your fridge for a month. So it it went in as, let's say. It went in as, let's say, camembert, and then just becomes fridge cheese. Yeah.
+
+[13:45] How did how did it taste? And turns out you should spend some time thinking about what you cook. Oh, go figure. Oh, also, Paul brought something. I think Paul brought something for it.
+
+[13:58] Who brought this? This is stuff to drink. I found it. You found it? I took that from the studio bar.
+
+[14:03] Yeah. Uh, all right. But Paul has two things that he's here to pronounce. I thought Paul's specifically pushing nothing. Alright, Paul, what are you promoting?
+
+[14:10] I'm not promoting it, but I've been investigating dihydromericetin. Oh, yeah, me too. Oh yeah? I'm just kidding, sorry. Basically, inspired by Dave opening his exciting new bar.
+
+[14:26] I went there and there's an interesting cocktail menu, and I wanted to try all of it. But beverage alcohol has an intoxicating effect, which prevents you from having as many cocktails as you would otherwise want. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? Wait, wait.
+
+[14:42] I'm just messing with you. Alright, go ahead. Alright, so give the name of the compound again so people can get their fingers back on the Google. Get your finger on the Google key right now. Dihydromericetin.
+
+[14:52] D-I-H. Like two hydros. Y D-R-O. Well, dihydro they can get. Dihydro.
+
+[15:00] Two hydro. Well, Maurice, like like Maurice. D H M is the slang. But Maurice spelled like spelled like Maurice? No, Moricetin spelled like Mersine.
+
+[15:11] M Y R. Like named after the plant family. Yeah. E-C-T-E-I. I can't spell on the air for some reason.
+
+[15:21] Yeah, yeah. Where do they get this crap from? Amazon. The internet. No, no, no.
+
+[15:25] Okay. Where did the internet get it from? Amazon. Where did the Amazon? Amazon the jungle or Amazon the Bezos.
+
+[15:31] Bezos. I call only call him Bezos. I don't care how he's supposed to be pronounced. He's Bezos! Ampelopsis.
+
+[15:38] Grossa something plant or Hovenia Dulcis. It's from traditional Chinese medicine as a hangover cure, but recently the West has started investigating the active ingredient, which is called dihydromorisetin. But it's a legit old school TCM thing. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[15:54] And uh on the on the street, the kids are calling it what? D H M. D H M. Is it is it G R A S to throw another uh acronym into it or no? Generally regarded as safe by the U.S.
+
+[15:59] uh pharmacopia. Only by default. I don't think it's been. Wait, so that we're allowed to play, Dave? We're allowed to rip on uh on Mary Poppins.
+
+[16:15] Like, yeah, like Darth Darth Disney, Darth Disney is okay with us, but we can't play any songs that we want. Anyway, all right, wait. Don't worry about it. All right, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.
+
+[16:25] I'll talk to legal. Yeah, yeah. Alright, so go ahead. So so we get this stuff. So I purchased a jar of capsules of diagonal.
+
+[16:31] But in other words, I can't serve it at the bar because it's not generally regarded as safe, right? I was suggesting that you should have surreptitious touts coming up to customers, giving it to them so they can order more drinks. Right. You should deny it. Right.
+
+[16:45] My point, my point is that as a res a theoretically responsible person, I cannot serve it to a guest because it is not on the list of ingredients as generally regarded as safe by the United States of America. True? I don't know if it's on the list. Okay, okay. So go ahead.
+
+[16:59] So your tests, what has happened? So I decided to try this stuff for the first time, and I had a couple of capsules of it, and I went to How far in advance? Existing conditions. Um 30 minutes in advance. Okay.
+
+[17:12] And I had like eight cocktails. Who is your bartender? I have to talk to them about this. I don't remember a thing. Was there a bartender?
+
+[17:23] No, and I Nastasia Yeah, that was self-served night. Observed me, and I was, yeah, not perfectly. Uh Nastasia's cocktails. Nastasia was like, the more drunk other people get, as long as they get more sullen and silent, the better they appear to her. So like, Nastasia, there's nothing in Stassi loves more than a silent, sullen drunk.
+
+[17:43] Because she can just sit there next to them without interacting, and they'll slowly sag into themselves like a persimmon slowly, slowly bleding and dehydrating into its own flesh. And that is her favorite dinner date. True or false? That's false. Oh, come on.
+
+[18:01] So, okay, so you had eight cocktails, and what was the what was your And I was okay. It was the equivalent of having maybe four cocktails without dihydromeris. And they weren't like you didn't order only stepbacks or non-alcoholics. I didn't have a single non-alcoholic or low alcoholic cocktail. Yeah, water.
+
+[18:17] You had water. Yeah, so sparkling. For those of you that are wondering, this is not some sort of uh we don't serve miniature cocktails at existing conditions. We it's as we say, in general, you get the full two-ounce poor. Right?
+
+[18:30] We have some lower alcohol drinks, and we have a lot of non-alcoholics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. So your your first test is you say, a success.
+
+[18:39] A mixed success. Ethanol has sort of a complicated way of intoxicating you, involving various different neurotransmitters, and it felt like some of that was inhibited by the dihydromerizatin, and some of it was not. How was uh how is the morning inhibited? Um the morning was fine, but my mornings are unpredictable. I there's no reliable link between drinking and feeling hungover for me.
+
+[19:07] Sometimes I really do, and sometimes I really don't. So we need to find someone, anyone out there, I mean, I can't suggest that you do this test because again, I haven't done the research Paul has. He can suggest that you do it. But uh They definitely studied it on rats. And what happened to the rats?
+
+[19:22] They died. It works great on rats. In rats, to test drunkenness in rats, there's uh property called L-O-R-R, which is the lack of writing reflex, where you get the rat drunk and you turn it upside down and you see if it can turn itself upright again. And so a drunk rather that's a technical term for effing with a rat. Yeah rat tape dihydrom residin dramatically reduces the lack of writing reflex in a rat.
+
+[19:49] Alright what we need here is we need someone you need like a regular person. Yeah yeah someone who someone who doesn't have some I volunteer do you do you normally get hangovers Dave? Do I get them? Yeah. Oh my god yeah all right so yeah I'm in my 30s.
+
+[20:02] Well so come to the come to the bar but I can't provide you with the uh Paul will provide you with so I drink for free yeah show me show you're fucking Dave in the booth bleep that out sorry sorry people you're Dave in the booth we'll I'll spot you your cocktails um yeah but um okay moving on to Paul's second thing all right what is it is this my thing yeah well we came up with it together but yeah you present the problem okay but hurry because I gotta answer one question too. The problem is no I'm not gonna present the problem because these are so just say say what an idea they decided. When you go to existing conditions beyond the amazing and highly intoxicating cocktails there's also Dave Arnold milling around and if you have any questions he's right there and he will tell you the answers to all your questions and this is sort of a profit opportunity that needs to be exploited. So I think Dave should set up a little consultation booth in the back. You mean like Lucy's lemon?
+
+[21:05] Yeah, that's exactly what I think. 15 minutes with Dave 100 you get a free cocktail to drink during your 15 minutes with Dave. And you can write it off if he's helping you with your food and drink business. I will only quote Lucy during the entire time. You have pantophobia.
+
+[21:23] I will always call people Chuck, no matter what their name is. Yes. You know what I mean? Don't you think that's a good idea? I don't know, man.
+
+[21:31] I think that's a great idea. Like we've spent our lives giving people information for free. So now is the time. Well, speaking of time away from when you should be entertaining customers in your bar. But that is the entertainment.
+
+[21:44] Asking me some dumb asking me some questions. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So check this out. This is like one of my better, uh better like podcast ramifications that happened. There was a couple in New York City yesterday, last night.
+
+[22:04] I'm on the phone, I'm with Nastasia. Nastasia and I are having one of our many, many intensely unpleasant conversations with uh our contacts. Our contacts over in Shenzhen in China with uh with our factory stuff. And someone literally hears me yell on the phone, you know, gee, damn it, that's the most ridiculous thing. Like yelling, like just like going off on the phone as they're walking past, had no idea where existing conditions was, and says, I know that voice.
+
+[22:42] Comes into the bar. That's a win. I know that joke. Like a siren call. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:54] Alright, let's do a question real quick. Real quick, very quickly, I should say. Yeah, I'm trying to teach my kids proper proper grammar. Yeah, get going. Alright.
+
+[23:02] Greetings, cooking issues crew from my stuffy condo in New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada, near Vancouver. I'm a longtime listener, first time emailer. Just finished fully catching up on all 300 and some episodes. Oh my god. Sounds brutal.
+
+[23:15] Yeah. It's like it's like a free. By the way, real quick interjection. I listened to the very first episode of Cooking Issues the other day, and it is like night and day. What do you mean?
+
+[23:25] You just open like so NPR, like low-key professional, and like it's just it it it sounds like a completely different Dave. What's better? Go on. Uh he's like uh the NPR. Yo, one time, like two or three years ago, we we said, should we do a more welcome to cooking issues?
+
+[23:45] No. No, that's a hard no. Yeah, all right. Yes. All right.
+
+[23:49] Not sure what I'm gonna listen to while I get my house cleaning done, toying with going back and starting over from episode one. No. This is what I told. So, anyway, whatever. This is why I tell Dax all the time.
+
+[23:59] Find new things. Life is too short. Find new things. Uh, anyways, my friends and I travel uh to the Oregon coast every year, and we traditionally make a cheese fondue. Ready, Nastasia?
+
+[24:10] Cheese fondue. You like cheese fondue. I will say this also. Whoa. The person who called in with the Koji question, we don't have an answer yet.
+
+[24:17] Is that your alarm for 1 p.m.? No, that's Nastasia, like ordering shoes on Zappos. They're like, Where there's no one at the address to pick up your shoes. You're literally gonna go and I need you for fondue, Nastasia. You're the fondue lady.
+
+[24:28] Hi. Oh, Jesus. So much for not taking calls on the air. So, Paul, you'll have to stand in for Nastasia. You'll have to do your best mean.
+
+[24:36] I love fondue. Alright. I hate fondue. Alright. No, she likes fondue because it's Swiss.
+
+[24:41] She likes Swiss things? She likes Swiss things. Huh. Yeah. Good to know.
+
+[24:44] Uh, hates biscuits, loves Swiss things. Uh we also uh do this during the Super Bowl, so I guess it's a twice per year event. So as long as you get to my question by the end of January, uh, we're in good shape. Uh while we're making fondue this time, I realized that we didn't have any cornstarch, which is what most slash all the online recipes call for, so I subbed in flour. None of the recipes I found, even the serious eats one, explained why cornstarch is generally used instead of flour.
+
+[25:11] I did a cursory search online but found a lot of conflicting opinions and people listing the properties of each thickener without really applying it to the scenario of cheese fondue. Uh melting shredded cheese that's tossed with the starch uh into a high acidity uh added wine situation. You with me so far, Paul? Yes. Okay.
+
+[25:27] Um I found it difficult to get the flour subbed fondue to get the right consistency. It was quite thick, which is unusual. Usually you have to use more flour because it's got less thickener because it's got all that extra garbage in it. Ash and protein or I mean I've heard different ratios, but it's anyway, it's not one to one anyway. Um it was quite thick and the cheese wasn't blending nicely with the reduced wine.
+
+[25:46] I eventually got to the consistency where dipping was possible, but it didn't have the same velvety texture it had in the past and seemed perpetually on the verge of breaking. I did cook the wine down and added the cheese gradually over 20-30 minutes on low heat. I used slightly more flour than was called for in the cornstarch. There you go, that's proper. Maybe I added too much, probably not.
+
+[26:03] Any thoughts on why cornstarch is the preferred starch here? Or is oh or is it? Could other starches be used? Uh thanks for pumping out an entertaining show. My house will be dirtier without your podcast.
+
+[26:13] Uh also, if you guys are still keeping uh tabs on uh the demographic stats, I'm a 32-year-old female who hides all kitchen tech purchases from my disapproving husband. All right. Alright! That's what I'm talking about. This from Dana.
+
+[26:24] Uh pronounced Dana, not Dana. Anyway, uh, so uh okay. So I the the the short answer is flour should work. I don't know. The main difference is between flours, for instance, wheat starch is a form of purified f uh flour.
+
+[26:39] So the main difference between regular flour and a pure starch is simply the fact that starch is pure starch and flour has other things in it like protein, ash, um things like that. So uh any certain starches will perform differently. Cornstarch has a lot of things going for it. Cornstarch is extremely neutral in flavor. Cornstarch is extremely cheap.
+
+[27:04] Cornstarch uh doesn't clump as badly as some other starches. So it's easy to toss the shredded cheese or the cheese cubes in cornstarch to keep them separated while they're melting. Then as they melt out, the cornstarch will functionalize rather quickly and you get a nice fondue. Also, cornstarch, because it doesn't have a lot of other stuff in it, is relatively clear, so it's not going to cast a haze over your um over your you know fondue that you might get uh if you're using flour, because flour has much more of an opacifying effect because it doesn't uh it doesn't fully, you know, once the starch gelatinizes, there's still stuff that's not dissolved that's in AP flour. Now, uh other starches are great uh and can be used in even smaller quantities.
+
+[27:49] For instance, arrowroot starch. Arrow starch works well in fondue. Uh I haven't tested a lot of other starches. I'd be worried about some starches, things like potatoes swell tremendously, so maybe it'll make it too thick. I don't know.
+
+[27:59] I've never used potato starch in a fondue. Um I think a lot of the flour, like this are the arguments about flour, go all the way back to Escalphier. So Escolfier wrote in his famous uh, you remember what a scalpheus book is called, Paul? I forget. Anyway.
+
+[28:13] Uh so Scoffier wrote that in the future we will not have to use flour for thickening because we're going to have all of these kind of purified starches. So he was very prescient in that way. And his theory was that when you're adding flour to something that's going to be cooked, uh, so you either want to cook it for a half of an hour to get rid of the raw flour taste. I'm making air quotes in my hand here. This is his his words, not mine.
+
+[28:38] Or you want to add it at the very last minute in the form of a bermani, which is where you mold butter and flour together into like lumps, and you throw those lumps in to provide a quick thickening right as it comes up to the boil. But Escoffier was very much opposed to any kind of cooking between just bringing it to the boil and cooking it for like half hour, 45 minutes to cook out the flour taste. If you read roux recipes where people are making roux, which is not the same as a fondue, but if you're or bechamel recipes, things like this, all of the old school recipes will advise relatively long, slow cook times of the flour, presumably to get rid of that flour taste that they say. I have not necessarily fully experienced what they mean by this flour taste, but it's also possible that the non-dissolved, non-starch stuff was giving you some textual issues in your fondue. Any thoughts on this, uh, Paul that makes a lot of sense, Dave.
+
+[29:28] All right. Um Nastasi, you like cheese fondue? Like, do you make it ever? Or do you just like it? You prefer other Swiss people to make it for you.
+
+[29:36] I prefer to have lots of people, yeah, around. But you don't make it. Yeah, okay. But you don't ever make it. You have other people make it for you.
+
+[29:44] Yeah. Where do you get it? Other people. Other people. Other people's homes.
+
+[29:50] Other people's homes. I can't recommend a fondue parlor in New York. Uh there used to be a bunch. But well, but so back on this, so like the modern way to so like obviously when you're making a fondue, uh you want to get the right consistency. You also, I mean, uh the traditional fondue is about using a cheese that melts quite well.
+
+[30:09] So, like, you know, a lot of fondues traditionally you're using some form of gruyere-like, conte like thing, right? Uh you need the right balance of aged and fat and everything together so that they melt together properly. Uh the wine is there because you need a like uh a certain amount of acidity to get to a uh you know to emulsify it properly. But the the the key thing, if you want the no-fail and you don't mind using new technology, uh look, uh the older I get, the more I am not interested in riding the edge of failure on a constant basis, right? So it's like already the stuff that I do, like I'm on the edge of failure all the time.
+
+[30:48] So why would I, you know, leave myself to the vagaries of how the cheese happens to be today or how my burner happens to be today, about whether or not I'm gonna end up with a gluey mass or not, right? Or what is the exact acid uh amount that's in my wine because too much acid's bad, too little acid's bad, right? You need to get the right pH, everything needs to be right. So I would highly recommend that you cheat and you just add to your fondue what the chef's desk people and the modernist cuisine people do, they add um what they call melting salts, so sodium citrate, sodium hexametophosphate. This is gonna give you a big insurance policy to prevent against uh graininess in your fondue.
+
+[31:25] Likewise, uh, you know, if you're gonna make the fondue of the Americas, which is queso, right? Um if you're making queso, queso typically doesn't require, you just use more cheese, doesn't require a thickener. If you don't add too much milk or cream to your queso, it doesn't require any thickener at all. But no matter what cheese you're using, you should use you know some sort of American-style government style cheese. Add some Velveeta to it because it comes with enough emulsifying salts and ability to emulsify a tractor trailer of of queso.
+
+[31:56] So like you can do several pounds of uh you know regular government cheese or American cheese and a little bit of Velveeta, which is much more expensive, and Rotel, and get yourself, I mean, that's the fondue that I make on the regular, especially for Super Bowl. Everybody, everybody likes case. I gotta wrap it up. Wait, you're saying you don't like queso, Dave? I like queso, but we gotta wrap it up.
+
+[32:15] All right, okay, I'll give you this on the on the way out. Ready for this? So yesterday, real quick, actually, let me just say uh I gotta give a quick shout out to Ann Robertson, who was the person who put me on to the first episode of cooking issues and uh also contributed to the station. So thank you. Thanks.
+
+[32:29] Thank you. So uh on the way out, check this. Yesterday, Nastasi, do you have your food handler's license? No. You should go get it just in case.
+
+[32:36] You don't want to. Because that would be the last frontier, and I don't, I want that to be like, I do everything else. It's good for life. Anyway, I went up to to take the test yesterday. I think you can do it online.
+
+[32:47] You no, you take the classes online, and then you have to go in person to take the test. Okay, so first of all, I I was gonna go on a rant, but we don't have time about how wrong the the rules are, how incredibly wrong the rules are. So I'll save that anger for later. So I'm up there and it takes forever to take this freaking test, right? So it like the test itself, 10 minutes.
+
+[33:05] You know what I mean? Like maybe 15, right? 50 questions, multiple choice, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So if you're good at standardized tests, you're in, you're out. Sure.
+
+[33:12] And and you know, that's what I am good at in life, the standardized tests. You know, everyone's food handling. Okay. Anyway, so I show up, it I sit in the in the back of the room, and unfortunately, you have to register by row, so I'm waiting 45 minutes where you're not allowed to use your cell phone or do anything just to get the test into my hot, sweaty hands. Right?
+
+[33:29] It's raining, so I have my raincoat, my hat, whatever, nightmare. So uh I finally I get the test, I rip through it, I run up, they go to grade it, and she's like, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, you must have aligned the answer key wrong. She's like, nope.
+
+[33:46] I'm like, listen, this is you, not me. I like I look at it and I'm like, you're using the wrong answer key. So it turns out she was using the wrong answer key. She goes, pretty confident, huh? I'm like, mean, yeah.
+
+[33:58] I mean, this is what I do. Like, there's nothing else in life that I'm confident about other than my ability to take your standardized test. Food school. Like, here I am. I'm like, oh my god, I have to go on the air tomorrow and tell everyone that I failed food school.
+
+[34:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh, back next week with cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[34:37] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[35:03] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Emmy Cheese, specialty cheese from Switzerland made with heart and passion. For more information, visit M E USA.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:30] Find us at Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from getting real late now, but you know, Telaga 1 o'clock from a bird's pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. We got Dave in the booth.
+
+[0:58] How are you doing, Dave? Oh, just waiting patiently. Uh guess, oh, not so patiently as it turns out. Uh today's program was brought to you by Emmy Cheese. Specialty cheese from Switzerland made with heart and passion.
+
+[1:20] Since the early 1900s, Emmy has been a passionate supporter of farmers, cheesemakers, and family tradition. They believe in sustainable agriculture and respect for the people, land, and animals that make their business possible. Remaining dedicated to tradition, they strive to lead the industry in innovation, ensuring they bring you only the highest quality, best-tasting cheese from Switzerland. Emmy is best known for importing more than 80% of the Swiss Gruyere into the United States, but that's not to overshadow their other specialty cheeses, including Kaltbach Cave Age Cheeses, Darcharfa Max, Appenzeller, Tete Moins, and Traditional Emmentaler. For more information, visit M E USA.com.
+
+[2:07] Hearty har. That was good. That was good. Harha. Well, listen, I don't know anything about our sponsor, but I will say this.
+
+[2:19] Tetamoan, which apparently they sell, is a delicious cheese. However, most people who buy it in the US don't serve it the way you're supposed to. So Tetamoin is one of those stinky cow's milk cheeses. It comes in a round format. You're supposed to get this thing called a g roll.
+
+[2:37] Now, g roll is like uh, if you you know, if you've ever worked in a restaurant, you know, you know Nastasia, the spikes that you stick your tickets on when you're done? So it's basically like a it's like a combination cutting board and like menu spike. And you go and you stick the tetamoine right on the top. First you cut the very top piece of the crust off, you go pam! You put it down onto that thing.
+
+[2:59] You don't have to do it hard. You can do it gently, like, right? And then on top of that on the spike, you stick a flat scraping knife with a handle on it, and you rotate it, and it makes these thin flour-shaped shavings of tetamoine, which you serve. And if you purchase tetamoin in, you know, a cheese shop that knows how to serve tetamoin properly, and what by the way, even if they know how to serve it properly, they don't do it this way. Let me put it this way.
+
+[3:25] If you buy it in a cheese shop that's that can push a lot of tetamoin so they can serve it this way, because it doesn't last long once it's cut that way. They will pre-g-G roll it for you, pack it in a nice little thing, and serve it to you, like in a container where it's been pre-g-G rolled. But ain't nobody, I've never seen it served that way in the United States. I don't know. I mean, if anyone out there has a cheese shop that serves Tetaman and uh with a Giro, please uh please let me know because that cheese is delicious.
+
+[3:52] Uh speaking of delicious, Nastasio Lopez just got off an airplane uh yesterday from Barcelona. Yeah, it was good. Yeah? Did you have any delicious ham? I had a lot of ham, yeah.
+
+[4:03] I hate it a lot of places. Any specific ham that you like? Did you try the one I told you to try? No. I didn't have a lot of time.
+
+[4:09] I had two days of actual than eat. I know, I just ate, but I didn't remember. And the shitty the bad thing was that every restaurant we went to, we'd order the whole tapas, all the the pages, right? We want to eat everything. Okay.
+
+[4:24] And every waiter was like, Are you sure? That's a lot of food. And you're like, die. Every single place. Which is different from the Italians because they're like, you know, please eat more, please eat more, please eat more.
+
+[4:38] Please drink more, please drink more. Spanish like, are you sure? Yeah. Are you sure? Judgment.
+
+[4:43] Judgment. You're like, don't body shame me. I don't know how you say that in Catalonian. What was this? What about what about the uh what about like uh did you get used to people saying bon dia instead of one of the bon dia?
+
+[5:01] Anyway, food good. Yeah, food's good. What about uh beverages? You have any good beverages, good wine? What do you have?
+
+[5:06] I just drank wine. Okay, yeah. No, nothing, nothing, yeah, kava and white wine and red wine. Yeah, just whatever. Everything, whatever, whatever they would pour down your own.
+
+[5:14] It was like complete bender. You're like, give me all the food, give me all the food. And plus keep pouring. Yeah. Keep pouring.
+
+[5:21] Yeah, yeah. American over here. Keep pouring. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:26] Uh Dave, how was your week? Uh good. Yeah. You know what I like now that they're actually breaking up? You know what I started listening to last week?
+
+[5:33] Now that they're breaking up. Big ups. You know the band Big Ups that uh you know Joe used to like be in the booth with Jackie Moscow. That's his band. And uh New York band?
+
+[5:48] Yeah, yeah, Brooklyn, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So I just started listening to this song over and over again. They have where they're screaming about looking to the crystal.
+
+[5:56] Oh my god. Look at the crystal. You gotta listen to it. It's called PPP by Big Ups. Check it out.
+
+[6:01] Anyway, that's that stand for. I don't know. I don't know. That's my classic thing. Even though I know the guy, I only get into a band once they're breaking up.
+
+[6:10] Apparently they have to go to grad school. Grad school. That's a waste. Right? Anyway.
+
+[6:17] So I had something uh to bring up. So Nastasia in Spain. Oh, Nastassi, at the bar, I finally purchased my 20-ton uh hydraulic press. Nice. I used it yesterday for the first time.
+
+[6:29] So I went to the Harbor Freight Corporation, you know, uh uh purveyors of cut rate tools. And you know, cheap quality stuff, you know. But what you do is you look on their website. You know, normally, like when I buy hand tools, I buy what? Nothing.
+
+[6:43] Oh, yeah, there's a waiter. No, no, no. No, this guy here. Oh, but there is a literally there is a server here. Wearing a diaper as pants.
+
+[6:52] His pants are a diaper. Like a diaper. I I don't get like a a diaper. And then there's a yeah, I showed him. And then there's another one in a crop top with bright green shorts and glitter all over his face.
+
+[7:09] Yeah, but Dave, what are your thoughts on uh I already had this conversation on the dive? I have no opinion. You have no opinion on the phone. Strongly pro. You're pro diaper.
+
+[7:18] No, I I don't like that when I'm looking at it, he's like, what? And you're like, you're wearing a diaper. You know? But this is an actual conversation you had. Well, we looked at each other through the window before you got here.
+
+[7:29] Yeah. And it's like he's offended that I'm judging that. No, you're making that up. You have no idea what's going on in his head. That's his head.
+
+[7:36] Actually, and we're not sure if it's a he. Okay. You said he. I know, but I just realized. Okay, but my point is is that you have no idea what's going on in that person's head.
+
+[7:46] As usual, you are imputing onto them some sort of negative feeling onto you, so that you can get more incensed when in fact you have not had a reaction with this person. And it's interaction, rather. You've not had an interaction with this person, and so you actually you you have nothing on which to base this like theoretical offense. Anyways. Uh okay.
+
+[8:09] Had a question in from uh Derek Gungle in Windsor, Ontario. Uh Hello, Dave Nastassian Dave in the booth. I only found out about your show last March. Proud to say I've torn through every episode. Oh my god.
+
+[8:21] What is with these sickos? I don't know. Uh love the show, informative entertainment. I guess they're all only like 20 minutes long, so you know. God damn, Dave.
+
+[8:31] Boom. You know? You know why? You know why? Uh it's gonna blame the train again?
+
+[8:38] No. It's it's how much they pay us. Oh, zigzag. Hey, you got a bedroom and a USB microphone? Have at it.
+
+[8:50] A bedroom and a USB microphone? What's that mean? Yeah, that's like how everybody does their podcast, right? Just on the edge of their bed. Oh, really?
+
+[8:57] People, you can be rest assured when you hear this show, I have pants on. I like that guy. Look at it. Hey, hey, remember, it's a radio podcast. They can't see the diaper on the on the on the internet.
+
+[9:13] Okay. I do have it. We're back to the problem, the question now. I do have a small problem I was hoping you could help me solve. There's a local farm that has some of the best corn on the cob I've ever had, and I'd like to freeze some still on the cob to enjoy over winter.
+
+[9:27] And you know, winter in uh Ontario there is gonna get real cold. You know what I mean? Like real cold. I mean, they have nice, they have nice weather, but once it gets cold, they're right in the middle there, so it's like cold comes down. Anyway, so wants corn in the wintertime.
+
+[9:42] Um everything I've tried so far so far has left the kernels mushy. I tried blanching them for approximately three minutes. Now, people, I know people like zone out when I'm giving numbers. Remember that number. Three minutes.
+
+[9:55] Uh try blanching them for approximately three minutes and immediately plunging them into an ice bath. Then used a food saver vac to vacseal them and immediately froze. Result, mushy kernels. I repeated the same procedure, then allowed the corn uh allowed the corn to air dry after an ice bath. Result, mushy kernels.
+
+[10:12] I've even tried just vac sealing the raw cobs after removing the husk. And yet again, mushy kernels. Is there something I am not doing or something I'm doing wrong? Can I enjoy corn on the cob in the winter or am I completely effed in the A? Thanks for countless hours of entertainment.
+
+[10:28] Uh keep up the great work. Well, thankfully for you, not countless, because you finished the whole backlog right now. Uh I mean, thankless, you know, though thankful to uh thinkless to you or you know anyone that has to live near you. But uh so the point is this. I looked up for you uh an article, and you can look up this because it is uh what's it called?
+
+[10:51] On the internet, so it's not uh it's not behind a paywall. Uh and check out Blanchtime and Cultivar Effects on Quality of Frozen and Stored Corn and Broccoli by DM Barrett, E. Il Garcia, G. F. Russell et al.
+
+[11:04] from the Journal of Food Science. Now, uh interestingly, now when you freeze, uh, you check that out. I'm gonna give you the results of this in a second. But when they're freezing, uh when they're blanching uh and freezing vegetables, you're looking to do a couple of things. One, you're looking to kill off any enzymes.
+
+[11:21] So in enzymes, it's enzymes that might convert uh might convert, you know, uh sugar uh into something else, or you know, XYZ might reduce the quality of the corn, otherwise, you know, cause off aromas. Well, like so you want to kill those things. Also, it you know, it decreases anything on it that might later on on thaw cause problems, etc. etc. But the key thing is is when you're blanching corn, not only are you doing those things, you're also gelatinizing some of the starch, increasing firmness of the kernel up to a point.
+
+[11:51] So in their studies, raw corn was the uh least firm, right? And then as they went up in uh in blanching time, corn got more and more firm, and more and more of the enzymes were deactivated, right? Up until six minutes. So if you take a corn in the cob and you blanch it in a high-intensity steamer or in water for six minutes, right? Uh, they did it in a high-intensity steamer.
+
+[12:17] You probably don't have one, but six minutes. Uh I would go a little longer with a regular home steamer. But uh after six minutes, that was the peak firmness, and it started to go back down again. Um so on your three minutes, you're not gonna have as firm a kernel, and on eight minutes, you're not gonna have as firm a kernel. Six minutes didn't k wipe out a lot of the enzymes that people used to test, but if you actually take the time to read this article I just told you about, it shows that a more uh accurate enzyme assay for something more important in corn, six minutes is actually sufficient for the enzyme activity as well, and that that's your primary concern.
+
+[12:50] Now, here is what so that's the optimum blanching time for firmness as far as these folks are concerned. But uh that is not uh that is not the hard part. That is not what's messing you up. Uh first of all, once you blanch it, you should, as you said, put it in uh ice water in a bag or not to cool it off relatively quickly to stop the cooking uh from continuing. But your problem, simply put, is this your freeze rate is too slow.
+
+[13:14] Okay. So what you're gonna want to do is take the corn in the cob, put it in ice water to chill it, let it get down close to freezer, uh, you know, close to uh you know zero, let it let it hover there, and then after it gets to that point, you want to freeze it as rapidly as possible. I pretty much guarantee that what's happening to you is you're getting freeze damage. Okay. Uh so what I would do is put the corn, instead of just wrapping it and putting it in the fridge or whatever else you're doing, I wouldn't necessarily put it in a hard vac in the vac seal because uh, you know, the vacuum itself, if you if you suck air out of the out of the corn and then vac it, you're liable to um cause some degradation of the texture just in the in the vacuum process.
+
+[13:55] So I wouldn't vac it too hard while it's not frozen. You could do like a very light vacuum or just use water exclusion. More on that later if I have time, which I won't, but so then what I would do is I would use the old super salt and ice technique. So you take and you salt the hell out of ice, and you can't you can't oversalt the ice, right? Up to about a quarter of the weight of the of you take water and and ice, you crush it up, and then you add salt a lot.
+
+[14:21] Like if you're making ice cream a lot. Because your goal is to get the temperature as far below zero as possible and have it be a liquid, slushy slurry. Put it in a bag in a zipper water and put it in the salt ice bath. And that will freeze it fast as super fast. That's the fastest way anyone at home has to freeze it.
+
+[14:41] When they're commercially doing this, they blast freeze it. Nastasia is not allowed to talk about it, but when they're freezing her pasta, they also freeze it very, very quickly. The faster you freeze something, the less texture damage you're doing to it. And I guarantee you, all your textural damage is on the freeze. So I would just try to freeze it as rapidly as possible.
+
+[14:59] And the fastest way, because you probably don't own a blast chiller if you're a normal human being, is to do a very highly salted ice slurry, put them in bags, and you can do a whole bunch because that salted ice slurry is probably enough to freeze a bunch before it starts uh warming up. What do you think it's does? Yep. Stasi's like, and once again, I don't care. Uh you can also read uh Illinois.edu, uh, their web extension has information on corn, but I think they tell you to overblanch it because I think they're worried about uh different set of uh enzymes, but you can read their red read their stuff anyway.
+
+[15:32] Uh okay. Jerk. Uh uh, we have a question from KM on Mallort. I'm gonna do this one so quickly that I'm gonna get a chance to the other one. Are you familiar with Melort, Chicago's bitter liqueur?
+
+[15:43] Uh are there any non prank uses, especially cocktails? Uh if you're unfamiliar, I'd have to happy to send a bottle. Uh I do uh know about that, and no, there are no good uses for it. It's not a prank, it's a punishment. You know, it's a punishment shot.
+
+[15:55] Either you're punishing yourself or trying to prove that. By the way, for those of you who don't know, I don't own a bottle of Malort. I own the Swedish, like the old school Swedish equivalent Beska Drapar, which is like a I'm Nastasia. I made you taste that once. That's that wormwood crap that's like so bitter that you're like every time you taste it.
+
+[16:14] It has it's supposed to aid in digestion. Uh by the way, you can't get all crunked up, well, you can from the liquor on Malort, but there's not Fujone in Malort, so you're not gonna get any kind of green dragon uh effects if you're thinking you're gonna get a bunch of uh wormwood uh based kind of hallucinations. Uh so uh the answer is no. I don't think you're gonna get any good reasons to use it in a cocktail uh other than just punishment. It's gonna ride over the top of everything, make everything intensely bitter, even in small amounts.
+
+[16:42] If you want to serve it to someone, serve it to them as a shot and just say, I don't think you can handle it. And then you give it to them. You know what I mean? Uh all right. Got what I have left, Dave.
+
+[16:52] One more, go. Okay. From Nick in Toronto regarding uh rotary evaporators. It's a Canadian-based show today. You know how you feel about that.
+
+[17:01] Uh fan of the work, liquid intelligence is required, reading for our bar staff, and the spinzall sees almost 20 hours of use per week sometimes. Congratulations on existing conditions. That's a ball. Uh next time I'm in New York, I'm gonna come. Uh okay.
+
+[17:15] Uh they uh okay, we took the rota. That's more work in a week than you. Wait, what did you say? What did you just say? What the hell did you just say?
+
+[17:25] You know what, Dave? I quit. I'm out. People, if you wonder why there's never gonna be a show again, it's because I have to make up for all the hundred hour weeks that I'm doing in existing conditions. And instead, I'm gonna see my family other than doing this show.
+
+[17:39] Eat it! You are gone next week. I am gone next week. I'm only gonna get to see a part of my family because, of course, Booker refuses to fly to California with me. Right.
+
+[17:44] Yeah. Took the rotoVap plunge after finding a decent two-liter unit on totovaps.net. Is that a thing? Maybe he meant to say rotovaps.net. And with our first goal being to capture the unique smell of the local silk lily that grows all silkly that grows all over our city.
+
+[18:01] Our chiller continues to crash, but that's an issue we're sorting out with the manufacturer. Our main issue is when you address in your primer, which is still on the internet apparently. We're losing a ton of flavor without the peristaltic pump to remove the condensate. We have a tool in dye maker pal, uh friend, blah, blah, blah. Listen, I'm gonna tell you how to do it.
+
+[18:16] So uh what we're talking about is that when you're distilling something, hopefully you're you're dissolving the or getting the aromas into alcohol somehow first, right? Any water-based distillation, unless you're distilling with liquid nitrogen and a cold finger, good luck. I'm just gonna tell you that right now. Good luck. Uh, but assuming you have a chiller that can go low, like minus 20, you want to keep the flour alcohol mixture low in temperature, like like 40 degrees Celsius, right?
+
+[18:42] And then you're gonna take and you're gonna buy a sphere joint. So the way the rotovap works is is you have a flask, it circulates, it's heated very gently. You put the whole thing under a vacuum, it goes up into a condenser, the condenser chills it, it drips down into a receiver flask. The problem is that receiver flask isn't chilled properly, and so you tend to re-volatilize the stuff and you lose all the aroma. The answer is to put a sphere joint over it, which you can just buy, uh, and then a tube and then to what's called a peristaltic pump.
+
+[19:07] Uh, peristaltic pump can pump the condensing out. The problem is that the peristaltic pump tends to fail uh because it's not meant to take that kind of vacuum pressure, and you'll get back siphoning. So uh I'll go over my notes and see exactly which tube is the best. They don't last very long. And the one recommendation I would make that I didn't used to do is I would put a uh check valve on the outside of the uh peristaltic pump uh to see whether or not that can stop back siphoning of air through the peristaltic pump because it will eventually fail.
+
+[19:37] Uh and that's about all I have time to talk about that. Uh yeah, as Nastasi says, next week I will be in California. I hope to go to Death Valley in the middle of the summer and see what the hottest place on earth is like during the summer because I am stupid. Uh also Nastasi and I now have been working together for how long? 10 years.
+
+[19:55] Crazy. So stupid. Such a bad idea. Nastasi and I have given ourselves 2.5 more years to be happy. Yeah.
+
+[20:05] Yep. With our business. Uh at least you're being honest with yourself. Yeah, we are. Yeah, two and a half more years.
+
+[20:12] Because Dave will be 50, right? Yeah, I'll be 50. Yeah. And you'll be like, you know. Yeah, but mentally a combination of the average of two and that.
+
+[20:21] Right. So you're gonna be like, yeah, it's like, you know, you're the like the average of like you're either you either you're mentally very old or very young. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. What are you?
+
+[20:30] Uh I'm like permanently like like 10. Yep. 10. That's not true. Yeah.
+
+[20:36] Well, in some things. Anyway, see it a little bit, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[20:59] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[21:22] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code Cooking25 for 25% off your order. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:29] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from like, you know, like 12, like, you know, whatever. 12, whatever. To like, you know. Almost one o'clock from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwind. Brrrrrrrrr.
+
+[0:43] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and Dave in the booth. How are you doing, Dave? I'm good. How about you? I'm okay.
+
+[0:49] You're not gonna ask Nastasia how she's doing. No. I don't like it. They were on the phone at like last week. Yeah.
+
+[0:55] We can talk about that. We could talk about meetings later if you want. Uh speaking of that, um talk about Bezos again. Uh DC? What?
+
+[1:02] Tell them Amazon's a trillion dollar company now? Yep. Yeah, yeah. You know what the back is. So Amazon's a trillion dollar company, and yet we can't get enough internet service in this box for me to open uh what I think what I need.
+
+[1:14] Yeah, yeah. Anyways. Uh no, I mean, I have nothing negative to say about Amazon except for they owe us a lot of money, and it means we can't pay our suppliers back. I was on the phone with them last week and they said I was too mean to their accounting department. Listen to this.
+
+[1:28] Listen to this. By the way, call in all of your Bezos related questions too. 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. Nastasia was like in rare form because she sends me some of their emails.
+
+[1:41] You should hear what she titles the invoices as. I mean, you're supposed to title your invoices that you send to Amazon so that they pay you. So you can reference them later. Every invoice has to have a unique identifier title. And uh her titles are not safe for work.
+
+[2:01] I mean, they're like tells Amazon where to put their invoices. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it involves multiple body parts. Uh, but the like the thing is they owe us a like a boat ton of money.
+
+[2:15] Let me let me put it this let me let me put it this way. So imagine, if you will, that I'll leave all the names out so that you know protect everyone, but imagine that you pay to have a factory make a whole bunch of stuff. Now, factories being not stupid won't make you the stuff and and hand it to you until you've paid them for it, right? Most of it. Like you have to have paid for, I think two-thirds of it.
+
+[2:39] They deliver it and then you pay the last third, right? And then you know what they have you for on the last third is is that they assume you're gonna order it again. And so that they're not gonna make you any more until you pay them. So, anyways, so someone shalln't you know, be remaining name nameless, but who's you know, let's just call them Ramazon, right? Ramazon negotiated a deal with us whereby they purchase our Sears all from us, purchase them.
+
+[3:05] In other words, we don't own them. That's why people ask us, can you do this? Can you do that? Unfortunately, at this point, hopefully Nastasi and I can change this. We don't currently, Nastasi and I currently do not own any Sears all.
+
+[3:15] Actually, we own like 40. We own 40? Uh, anyway. So they take directly delivery from us in China. Like we never even touched them, right?
+
+[3:25] And yet they want, they take delivery. And yet they want us to prove that they got delivered in the United States. At their warehouse. At their warehouse, even though they were the shipper. And the receiver.
+
+[3:38] And the receiver, and the entire thing was predicated on they pay us from the date they take delivery in China. So let me put this in perspective. Let's say. I mean, it it's ridiculous. It's like, let's say I took an airplane to France, and I bought a bunch of cheese on credit.
+
+[3:58] And then I f I took the cheese. I took the cheese on the airplane. And then I get on the airplane, and then somehow my bag, let's say it's legal cheese, gets misplaced or whatever. I don't know where I put my bag because I'm a schmuck, right? Then I call up the cheese company in France and say, hey, I'm canceling my credit card.
+
+[4:20] And they're like, well, why are you canceling your credit card? But they're gonna say it in French. And I say to them, Well, I can't find my bag. Why don't you prove to me that my bag got to me here in New York City? And then I think it's ridiculous.
+
+[4:36] I sold your cheese in France. Set up sealed! You know what I mean? It's like they didn't say, you know what I mean? It's like And that's how you make a trillion dollar company.
+
+[4:48] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So literally Nastasia is I don't know whether we talked about this before, but literally Nastasias sent an email directly to Amazon. Because honestly, they are preventing us from paying our suppliers. It's funny, but it's putting our company in actual severe jeopardy because they have all of our money tied up in Sears All inventory, and the factory is like, well, we're not gonna make any more.
+
+[5:13] And then Amazon placed another order for a bunch, and they're like, get them here. And I'm like, pay us. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so literally the day that Nastasia has, I don't know, maybe 50 or 60 or 80 contacts in her email that are different people we we speak to at Amazon. All but one, I'm sure, quit because they were emailed more than five minutes ago.
+
+[5:33] Remember, if you have called someone at Amazon and you call back in five minutes, that person has already quit. Just remember that, right, Nastasia? That's your and they blame whatever the last person said on that person and not on the company. No one ever takes. Anyway, so literally the day Jeff Bezos became the richest, you know, human on earth or whatever it was, uh Nastasia Nastasia sent all of her contacts a blast email be like, hey, uh congratulations.
+
+[6:01] I heard Bezos is the richest man on earth. I hope he's enjoying that Sears all money. Free Sears all money. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[6:11] Awesome. Uh all right, so uh I'm gonna talk about I'll talk about my trip later if we have time, which we're not going to. I I love Death Valley. Death Valley was great. Dave, you ever been to Death Valley?
+
+[6:21] Nope. Nastasia ever been? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. You said you didn't like it.
+
+[6:24] No. It's amazing. Shocker. Why didn't you like it? I don't like deserts.
+
+[6:29] I don't like that landscape. But there's a billion different deserts. You don't like any of them? I don't like feeling landlocked. Is this why you like left Southern California?
+
+[6:41] Southern California? Well, the part of Southern California that's on the water is on the water and the rest of it isn't. When you go in that far, it feels super landlocked. By the way, people, that far means like 45 minutes. No way, Dave.
+
+[6:54] Uh excuse you. Like, how far is San Burr? How far is from where you live? Yeah, but how far yeah, but you don't live on the water. You're you're closer to the desert than to the water in Covina.
+
+[7:03] You're on the you're on the outside of LA, not on the inside of LA. You're not on the beach side of LA. You have to go through a highway to get. By the way, another thing, another theory. You know how everyone says this they're gonna get in a lot of trouble for this?
+
+[7:16] Everyone says the food is like super fantastic, better than New York, right? For like different ethnic cuisines. And this may be true, but I think, you know, I think people are misreading New York when they say that. What they mean is is that all of LA, which is a huge, sprawling, fundamentally feels like a suburb. Like when you're in like parts of LA that are legitimately LA, that could be Jersey City, right?
+
+[7:42] It could be like Deep Queens. It could all it could be Yonkers. You know what I mean? In other words, like the feel of it, the density feels much more like uh, you know, close suburb than it does urban, like downtown Manhattan. So I think people need to adjust themselves.
+
+[8:00] When they say the that the quote unquote ethnic cuisine is better in LA, this might be true, and they have lots of fantastic food. I had lots of really good food when I was in LA, even though I was only there for a couple of nights. Uh I mean, the fact of the matter is what they mean is better food than Manhattan, which is where people go. I mean, are people including Queens or Staten Island? I was joking with Nastasia last night.
+
+[8:21] I was like, I hear there's great Sri Lankan food in Staten Island. Great. But I'm probably more likely to go to Sri Lanka than to go to Staten Island. You know, because that's just how New Yorkers are. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:32] Like, I'm more likely to say, you know what, Sri Lanka sounds like a nice place to visit. I hear that they, you know, I hear that the turmoil has settled down and they have great food. You know? Maybe I'll go to JFK and I'll get on an airplane. What?
+
+[8:45] Get on a ferry to Staten Island. No way. What the? What? You want me to spend all day?
+
+[8:51] I gotta get on a uh a subway. I gotta f you know if I gotta get to the subway, go to a subway to take a ferry, to then what, walk? What am I gonna take that Staten Island Railroad? What am I gonna get away? Yeah, what am I?
+
+[8:59] What is this? So I can go eat Sri Lanka food. Yeah, Sri Lanka food sounds delicious. I'm just gonna get a pizza. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:07] That's how New Yorkers are. That's how we are. We're the most uh provincial people in the world. Like, so you go to like you go to like it it's like the average New Yorker thinks that you know that they're like like worldly and cosmopolitan, which in some ways is true. But the average one of us travels what, like five miles, maybe radius, maybe?
+
+[9:30] You know what I mean, Nastasia. If I have to tell you that you have to cross some sort of river to do something, like for instance and do it. Yeah, here is a yeah. I mean, we come to the radio show because it's like you know, a job. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:39] But like we go to even though we don't get paid. Uh but whatever, but then they always show up late for. Yeah, well, you know, you know, you know how they say this. But then, like, but I tell Nastasia, hey Nastasia, there's an event we should go to. She's like, oh, really?
+
+[9:52] Okay, where is it? And we're like, I'm like, Brooklyn. She's like, oh, hell no. Yeah. No.
+
+[9:55] Because once she gets back home, she's back home. Whereas in LA, you're like, hey, uh, we're gonna go get some food. It's only an hour away. Only an hour. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:06] Yeah. So anyway, I think it's just unfair the way people rate. And Dave and I are gonna be out there. We should do some kind of giveaway to do something. You want to do an LA giveaway?
+
+[10:15] We're there on the 15th? 16th. We have to do you pay heritage $10,000. You can come to our Sears All barbecue. What?
+
+[10:26] Make it 20's good. 20,000. Okay, great. That sounds like no one's gonna do that, but okay. Oh, 10.
+
+[10:32] Okay, 10, 10K. 10 gets you to the barbecue in our secret location. 10 dollars. Yeah. $10 U.S.
+
+[10:39] You can shake Dave's hand. No, you get to you get to talk Dave's ear off. And ask all the questions. You guys are bad people. Alright, let's take a break and come back.
+
+[10:49] Uh, fine. Hey, yo. Hey, Nastasia, it's time for our Bob's Red Mill moment where we put your cooking improvisation skills to the test. This week's secret ingredient is faro. Tell us what you'd make, Stas.
+
+[11:11] I would make a faro salad with tomatoes, cheddar cheese, and cucumbers. Well, how would you make it? I would cook the faro in a pot, and then I, as it's cooking, I would cut up my tomatoes and my cucumbers and cube my cheddar cheese. And then I would mix it all together. You're gonna let it cool down before you toss the other stuff with it?
+
+[11:34] No. You're gonna put any oil on the freaking faro? No. What? No, no oil.
+
+[11:39] Nastasia's just being a uh a chump. No. Have you ever made something like this before? Yes, I have. No oil.
+
+[11:45] No oil. No oil. No oil. So you're saying you're gonna serve it hot or serve it cold? It would be nice if it was cold, but it's gonna be hot.
+
+[11:54] Because it's usually like time for dinner. Yeah. Time for dinner. I don't even know what to say about this. Have put me so off my course that I find it difficult to properly thank Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues.
+
+[12:09] You should still visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products and buy their delicious faro, which you should definitely not overcook and then mix with chopped-up freaking cold tomatoes to make a tepid soupy monstrosity. You should definitely not do that with their faro. But you should use the code cooking issues25 for 25% off your order. Wow. We're like those commercials on that Long Island station that I like.
+
+[12:41] Oh my god. Whenever we're driving up, whenever we're driving up the coast to Connecticut, we Nastasia tunes in this one this one station from Long Island where it's still like hyper local. They're like, Billy got caught stealing credit cards again, Billy. You know what I mean? And then they're like, oh, I love that radio station.
+
+[13:00] Uh oh, by the way, as I predicted, I got uh notified this by someone on Twitter. FDA advises consumers to avoid eating, drinking, or handling food products prepared with liquid nitrogen at the point of sale. All right, let's go through this again. The FDA, this is on FDA.gov. So this is not nationalinquirer.com.
+
+[13:24] This is FDA dot G-O-V. FDA advises consumers to avoid eating, drink, drinking, or handling food. Eating, drinking, or handling food products prepared with liquid nitrogen at the point of sale. Now, I will say the one thing that does make sense that they that they wrote in their finding. In general, other foods treated with liquid nitrogen prior to the point of sale and before consumption, for example, some frozen confections, are treated in such a way that results in the complete evaporation of liquid nitrogen before reaching the consumer and are no longer at an extremely low temperature and therefore, do not pose a significant risk of injury.
+
+[14:02] Now listen, fools, I use liquid nitrogen at the point of sale, and yet I also have techniques to guarantee that the thing is A, not too cold, and B, does not contain any residual liquid nitrogen, right? So it's like uh uh let me let me read some of the stupid stuff that they say. Uh okay. First of all, believe it or not, Nastasi, look at that. It's the same damn picture.
+
+[14:24] The FDA used the same damn late lazy. Exactly right, Nastasia. Lazy. Lazy. Even our government goes on and like steals freaking clip art images or whatever from other things to put up, and they're like, oh, that's a nice image of the of the of the dragon's breath cereal.
+
+[14:43] I'm gonna use that one. You know what I mean? The government. Uh so they say here, liquid nitrogen, although non-toxic, can cause severe damage to skin and internal organs if mishandled or accidentally ingested due to the extremely low temperatures it can maintain. No.
+
+[14:58] It is cold. Right? Liquid nitrogen, stuff's cold. Can maintain. People, be accurate with your freaking writing.
+
+[15:06] You know what I mean? Like, why do they need all those extra words? Can maintain. Everyone is such a crappy writer. Why is everyone suck so much?
+
+[15:15] You know what I mean? And I'm paying this person. All of all of us are paying this person to do this writing. There are plenty of people out there with the skills to write. Pay them.
+
+[15:28] Anyway, uh, it can maintain. Inhaling the vapor released by a food or drink prepared by adding liquid nitrogen immediately before consumption may also cause breathing difficulty. May does not, does not, but may, in the same way that it may be true that the moon is made of roquefort cheese. It may be true, like, you know, from some sort of quantum mechanical uh aspect that if that if that I might accidentally fall through the earth because all of my atoms might miss all of the other atoms. Is not true.
+
+[15:59] Right. Uh remember, that claim of causing breathing difficulties, right, is due to someone who had their grandson, I believe, Johnny. Johnny, right? Johnny was headed home in the car 40 minutes after having Dragon's Breath in Jacksonville, Florida, where it's humid as the devil. And he had asthma, right?
+
+[16:25] And he had asthma, and he had an asthma attack 40 minutes after, and the grandma was like, must have been that thing that I'm not used to. It must have been that thing that I'm not used to. This is how like witches get burnt. You know what I mean? They're like, you know, that lady was kind of crazy, and we saw her, and then my niece gave birth, and that the the kid had a crazy hair coming out.
+
+[16:49] That lady's a witch. You know what I mean? That's how this is the same exact. It's the same exact stuff. That's what we're good at.
+
+[16:56] People? No. The US. Oh no, it's just people in general. Like I think the thing is that I think everywhere in general, that's like, you know, you know, you go to like the old school European, like, you know, my my stepfather's family are like, oh no, the malokia malochia.
+
+[17:10] You know what I mean? Oh, to give me the malokia, no, you know what I mean? Like, and like in all these things. It's like everyone, everywhere, everyone is superstitious about stuff and does post hoc ergo propter hockey and like, you know, is willing to make you know wide-ranging conclusions based on zero data points. But we just don't, no one expects that their own crew is gonna do that.
+
+[17:29] You know what I mean? No one expects because everyone's like, well, here in America, we are, you know, we are logical and smart. Nah, we're all people, you know what I mean? We all make the same dumb mistakes, and then predictably, our you know, our government makes the same dumb mistake and calls it out as though it is true. As though it is true.
+
+[17:47] Um, food and drinks prepared by adding liquid nitrogen immediately before consumption may be sold in malls, food courts, kiosks, state or local fairs, and other food retail locations. Well, you just said every damn thing. Once you add the words other food retail locations, you know what I mean? Well, I think they mean is predominantly it's at these places. Uh these include, get this people, more good writing.
+
+[18:10] These products may include liquid nitrogen infused colorful cereal or cheese puffs. Infused? Infused. Okay, I know that I get semantically angry in the same way that my partner Don Lee, you know, in Barkner at the bar, gets mad with uh like you know technical terms like fat washing. You're not infusing the freaking, you're just chilling the damn stuff.
+
+[18:30] Anyway. Uh similarly, alcoholic or non-alcoholic drinks prepared with liquid nitrogen emit a fog. Incorrect. Like, we don't ever serve a like something that's actively foaming over with fog to somebody. It's just stupid.
+
+[18:45] This is just bad. The FDA has become aware of severe and in some cases life-threatening injuries, such as damage to skin and internal organs caused by liquid nitrogen still present in the food or drink. What about the FDA has become aware that people burn themselves all the time on things like deep fry oil? Or like, you know, if I plant my face into a fondue pot, you know that? If let's say I was to get an oil fondue, like old school oil fondue, right?
+
+[19:10] And I'm like, this looks fun. Uh I think that this is something to wash my hands in. I think this is the hand wash bowl. And then you stick your hand into the uh bubbling like oil concoction, and it's bubbling because there's water at the bottom. I realize the oil itself is not bubbling, but when you put the food in, there's water, whatever.
+
+[19:24] You put your or if they hand you a steak knife with your steak. Yeah, and you're like, you know what? This steak knife looks like a toothpick. I'm gonna shove it in my gums. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:35] It's like dumb, dumb. Um look, what I'm saying is let's be sensible, people. What you should do is tell people not as they do at the end, they they say the only smart things. Oh, here's the other thing. Uh, here at the end of this paragraph, there is a call to all lunatics.
+
+[19:51] Consumers who have experienced an injury because of handling or eating products prepared with liquid nitrogen at the point of sale immediately before consumption, should consult their healthcare professional. They should also consider reporting their injury to MedWatch. Uh it's uh so like there it is. Call to all lunatics. Let me tell you something.
+
+[20:09] For years, before I got into the business I'm in now, uh, I was a database designer for lawyers, and those lawyers did asbestos related law. And I personally know, uh knew uh many dozens of people who had legitimate asbestos related cancers who died as a result of their exposure to asbestos. So I hate I mean I hate them still to this day, uh, asbestos companies. They got away literally with murder, right? So I'm just saying that from someone who doesn't, I'm not telling you that certain things aren't bad, but on the other hand, if you tell everyone that you know that they're gonna get a disease based on something, then they do because for every legitimate asbestos related disease, and I saw many, many, many sad cases of asbestos related disease, uh, you know, back uh when I was doing that, you'd get this one bring, hello, and they say, and I'm like, I'm calling about you know what what you said.
+
+[21:01] I'm like, well, what what what do we say? And they're like, I've got the asbestos. It was always like that. It was always this thing. I uh I was remodeling my house and I took down some plastic board and now I have a cough.
+
+[21:14] I think I've got the asbestos. That was the thing they always say, the asbestos. I'm like, sir, I what you're talking about is asbestosis, and you need a lot of asbestos to get asbestosis. Misotheelioma, maybe not so much. But anyway, give me a call later in 20 years if that happens.
+
+[21:30] Bye. You don't need to hang up. When you call loot when you when you specifically ask for lunatics to come out and say they're injured by something, lunatics will show up. And if the FDA is already at a position where they're saying that they that they believe, like grant Johnny's grandma on the fact that Johnny's asthma, quote unquote, was caused by inhaling what amounts to people as the air that little Johnny is already breathing because that's what our air is made out of. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:57] Nitrogen. We're in for a world of hurt. Uh on that same note, we got a question in uh from let me see if I can call it because I forgot to put my phone on auto stay open, because I am stupid. Uh okay, uh, we got a question in from John. Not Johnny from Jacksonville, Florida, but John from Manila, and it says, Greetings again from uh the Manila Philippines.
+
+[22:24] Dave, what are your comments about this news? All right, and here's the uh and and then uh the news was that there's uh um a professor uh who holds a dual uh what it's not dual citizenship, what's it called? Like a dual professorship. She's uh professor at the University of Freiburg, so this talk was given in German. So I wasn't able to find in the short amount of time I had uh the full like there's a translation somewhere into English, and my German is not good enough to read her original German, uh, not good enough anymore.
+
+[22:55] You know why? German, which I took in college, I was very good in college. German, one of those languages it's so rule based that you can like learn it, be pretty good at it, and then completely forget it because it's like like forgetting a bunch of rules. It's not like a riding a bicycle where it's all about feel. You're like, you put the verb at the end, this is how you do it.
+
+[23:13] You know what I mean? It's like it's like it's very, you know, anyway. Uh so what this what this professor did was she came out and she said that coconut oil is a pure poison, right? So apparently she said a lot of stuff which I would have liked to have read about how uh anti-superfood in general. And then she went apolistic on coconut oil, and the same old sad story about you know, oh, it's saturated fat, and so she says it's poison.
+
+[23:43] Now, for those of you that haven't gone to a supermarket in the past five years, you know, uh, or didn't maybe you just started going to the supermarket. Let's say that you just started going to the supermarket last month and you were born like three months ago. Then, you know, you think that there's always been a huge section in your supermarket with a bunch of different brands of coconut oil sold in glass jars, right? Or coconut fat sold in glass jars. Not the case.
+
+[24:07] Like six years ago, you go to my local uh supermarket, and you would find exactly zero containers of coconut uh oil. Zero. You know what I mean? Coconut milk? Yes.
+
+[24:17] Coconut cream, yes. Coconut oil, no. Interestingly, coconut oil not sold in the same area as coconut milk and coconut cream. In fact, in my supermarket, coconut cream and coconut milk not in the same aisle, right? Coconut milk is in the it's in the vaguely ethnic section.
+
+[24:34] We're like, we're not sure. Maybe you're maybe you're some sort of Hispanic person. Maybe you're some sort of Asian person. That's where coconut milk is. Coconut cream is the, we think that maybe you like the party aisle.
+
+[24:46] You know what I mean? And then the coconut oil, remember that it all comes from the same plant. Coconut oil is in the I do yoga aisle. You know what I mean? The olive oil oil.
+
+[24:55] Uh, which is the same as the I do uh yoga aisle, right? Anyway, point being uh that this is a relatively new thing because people come out and touted the thing. So anyway, what are my thoughts on so uh John says I find this hard to believe, but if you agree with this, is there another way to get uh a s uh to get a spirit to the uh to get the spirit of the flavor of the coconut, feel free. Uh uh feel free to think I am a coconut nut. John, anyway, if you're from the Philippines and you don't use coconut oil, you might as well you might as well call it a freaking day.
+
+[25:26] You know what I mean? Like, that's like it's like super traditional, different kinds of you know, palm oils and coconut palm oil, more specifically, like cooked palm oil and the red palm oil, which in African cuisine, everywhere. It's traditional. My point is this, uh also like so. She was out against coconut milk because she was like doing that old saw about uh saturated fat being bad.
+
+[25:46] And just as predictably, a uh, you know, some uh I didn't bother looking at his credentials, but apparently he's a world-renowned cardiologist, came out and slammed her, right? But one of the reasons it made such big news is she's a professor at Harvard as well, right? So Harvard's school of uh, you know, of this kind of thought, you know, run by Willett and all those guys, is like one of the world renowned things. So if Harvard comes out and says coconut oil is pure poison, everyone's like, oh my god, coconut oil is pure poison. And then the the cardiologist is like, no, coconut oil is really good for you.
+
+[26:16] The and of course, you can't just leave it at that. First of all, he shouldn't even say that. He should just say, Coconut oil is food. Eat it if you like. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:23] Like, but instead of that, he goes, No, not only is it good, the real enemy is sugar, because everyone has to have a freaking enemy. It's all about not, it's all, it's none of it is, hey, just mellow the hell out and eat some food. It's like, no, this is your friend. Eat five like boat tons of that. Your real enemy is this other thing.
+
+[26:41] So the only thing I think that hasn't been demonized recently is protein, right? Has anyone come out and said, you know what you should stay away from? Yeah, no, nobody's ever said that. Protein. Dave, you ever heard anyone say you should get rid of protein?
+
+[26:53] Nope. All I know is is that whatever. I mean, have you ever you ever eaten one of those even for a short amount of time, those super high protein diets? No. Yeah.
+
+[27:03] I I did for a couple days as a test once. Atkins? Yeah, I didn't find it pleasant. Anyway, it doesn't sound pleasant. It's not pleasant.
+
+[27:10] What about that diet that uh Jordan Peterson's daughter promotes? What's that? You only eat beef, salt, and water. What the hell? What?
+
+[27:20] Why? You should Google this. It's uh I don't know. She claims it like fixed all these health issues that she was having, which maybe for her for some freakish reason they did in the short term, but like this is obviously not sustainable. Also, you know for everyone.
+
+[27:35] Some people's health problem is that they're banana lambda ding dong. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, and that can be fixed. Ain't no cure for that. Well, no, there is.
+
+[27:41] No, there is, but there is in a way, right? So, like, let's say, like, you're like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna only eat cheese and raw meat, and I'm gonna get all of my water from raw meat, don't do that. Right? If you believe that that's good for you and you're regimented about it, and you're also doing a bunch of other stuff.
+
+[28:00] I mean, maybe you'll end up in better shape. I doubt it. You know what I mean? But uh, you know, your mind, if you think you're doing something good for yourself, your mind can make yourself, you know, feel better in some ways. That's why, like, I think when I had to remember that when I had to go on that raw food diet, and I was such a or or the juice clan, uh, the uh master cleanse I had to go on for a week because I lost a bet.
+
+[28:19] I don't remember the master clean. Remember maple syrup and lemon juice? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had to do it for like a week.
+
+[28:26] And I think people who believe that it's good for them, like associate the physical discomfort and kind of the butt spray that they're set on when they do this, right? They they conflate that kind of nastiness that's happening with your body with good things happening to your body. There's this weird conflation, right? So they feel quote unquote great because they think they're doing something good for your body. Whereas I, who believe this is all horse hockey, feel terrible because like I'm like, why am I punishing myself?
+
+[28:54] I could be having real food. Anyways. So uh I think the whole thing is a nightmare. I think the whole thing, I think the entire superfood thing is a freaking nightmare. I think all the arguments on all sides are complete nightmares.
+
+[29:05] I think people should get, you know. I think here's the other thing, right? So, like, no one's ever, and I don't have time today. We can talk about it, but like the uh I was re-reviewing that from a couple of months ago and recently re-reported the Lancet article on alcohol consumption, and um I'll read you the title of the article so you guys can go look at it. Maybe we can discuss next week if anyone wants to call in uh on it.
+
+[29:28] Four minutes. But it's called Alcohol Use and Burden for 195 uh countries and tur territories, 1919 1990 to 2016. Uh and it and it it talks about uh this is the one where they said even a single glass of day, a day of uh liquor increases your risk of death. And by the way, uh for those of you that keep track of this, they used uh uh a fun thing called the disability adjusted life years, or hey daily, for all of you atmosphere fans out there. And I don't know, there are probably two atmosphere fans out there.
+
+[30:03] Uh Nastas is like, I don't even know what atmosphere is. I've never been to Minnesota. Uh but anyway, so there were I'm gonna read this study if I have time this week, which I probably won't in depth to try to go to try to go through it. But you're such a jerk. Actually, two.
+
+[30:20] Anyway, uh, we'll go through, we'll talk about that later. Uh as you might guess, I have issues with that, as with all studies. Uh not all studies, but many studies. Uh uh, oh, full disclosure, I sell alcohol. Uh oh, so just real quick.
+
+[30:34] Uh I I live near this is from uh Jane from Toronto. I have a question about making Applejack. My boyfriend and I live near Toronto, Canada, but are afraid that it won't get cold enough this winter to properly freeze distill. It's been pretty hit and miss for the past couple of years. Global warming, you know.
+
+[30:46] Uh freezer space is a bit of an issue, but can be worked around if necessary. Wonder if using dry ice will be worth it, slash practical, or if it'd be better going a different route. We're planning on making the apple cider ourselves as opposed to buying pre made product. I don't think you should use dry ice because dry ice is gonna probably nucleate very quickly. And I am pretty sure that what you want for a freeze concentration is the flaky plate like crystals that you get from slower quiescent freezing of alcohol, and those plate like crystals will drain better than super fine crystals that you make from freezing something very quickly.
+
+[31:21] So, what I would do, if you really want to do this, because you're gonna be making your own apple cider anyway, so you're investing a lot of time and energy uh in making apple cider and then freeze concentrating it. First of all, realize that many people are anti-freeze concentration because it also uh concentrates conjuners. Just have to let you know that. I don't really think you're going to kill yourself or have so much methanol that you go blind, but I'm I have to say it. I would just invest in like a uh $75, and that's all they really cost.
+
+[31:48] A $75 small chest freezer. Like go to your local, you know, huge mart and get one of those little square, like 20, you know, what are they, Nastasi? Like 20 by 20, 22 by 22, like, you know, counter height, like flip open top freezers. It will hold a relatively large thing of apple cider and let it quiescently uh freeze. Uh and do it like it's gonna get easier and easier as the alcohol content goes up and up because you'll be able to harvest crystals more.
+
+[32:17] Uh, so I would do it that way. Uh, although you might have to insulate the bottom of it because yeah, you might want to freeze from the top down. Anyway, give it some experimenting, but that's what I would experiment. Uh, you know, global warming and all that cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[32:42] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[33:08] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. Meet and 3 is Heritage Radio Network's weekly food news roundup.
+
+[0:26] This week on Meet and Three, we're bringing you highlights from Feast Portland, like our chat with the one and only Andrew Zemmern. I'm super excited to be here because for people who do what I do for a living, we do tons of, you know, desk side chats and podcasts and interviews and stuff like that. And you circle the handful of ones on a year where you get to talk with people that you're really excited about, talking with. So this is this is awesome. We picked up on some recurring themes while talking to our impressive roster of guests, including the current state of Portland's food scene, personal identity, and believe it or not, the influence of great chef's grandmothers.
+
+[1:05] Mima never touched a droppable booze in her life and now has a distillery named after her. But I grew up in her garden and just really she taught me all good things come from scratch, and women can be anyone they want to be. So tune in for this week's extra special episode. Subscribe to Meet and Three wherever you get your podcasts. Coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every well, not every, right?
+
+[1:40] We've been gone for a long time, but most Tuesdays from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. But sad news for some cooking issues uh or cooking issues listeners out there. Dave in the booth is no longer Dave in the booth. Dave in the booth has left Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[2:01] Yep. Today, we have Matt in the booth. Matt Patterson, how are you doing? Matt, who's dropping? I just dropped the microphone the minute you said my name.
+
+[2:08] Hello. Yeah, but like dropped it in like a I'm out boo. But it was like I was supposed to be I'm I'm in. That's not that doesn't work. Did I tell you, uh, did I ever tell you about my uh my business idea that I'm never gonna do?
+
+[2:21] Go. Probably not, because we just met him. Uh well no, but he's done the show before. Oh, really? Yeah.
+
+[2:26] I didn't look at his face. Oh, good job, Nastasia. Nastasia's like, I'm gonna pass by and not even look at their face. Just run by as quick as you can. Yeah, every every show people get a little bit more of an insight into Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[2:37] So, uh, so anyway, so the idea is is you have these um uh little mics that you carry around with you, microphones, and it's just like the foam head and the bass, and it's just got like a one-time use button cell battery in it, like the ones that greeting cards have, right? Uh-huh. And a tiny accelerometer. You just carry this in your inside jacket pocket, and then when it comes when you have a mic drop moment, you pull it out, and you you like as you pull it out, you like engage it, and then you just drop it. When you drop it, it goes poof, woo, and you just walk away from it.
+
+[3:09] What do you think? Never to return. Like you leave it there, you're done. You leave it there, you're done. That's amazing.
+
+[3:16] Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of price. You just have it in your hand, you have it in your pocket all the time, pull it out. Poof.
+
+[3:23] Woo! New York City would just be littered with microphones. Yeah, right. Because you could use it anywhere. You could use it like, you know, whatever.
+
+[3:30] You're sitting at a table, someone says something stupid, you have the sweet come back, drop the mic, go to the bathroom, and then walk out. Leave them with the check. Crap on 'em. You got a mic drop moment. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:40] Every time I quit a job, mic drop. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah. You know what my uh like my dream way to quit a job back when I used to have jobs? What do you have now?
+
+[3:49] I mean, like, you know what? What am I gonna do? Like, you know, quit quit to myself? You know what I mean? So it was always like, um I can't say actually I can't say it on air it's not it's not appropriate.
+
+[3:58] It's not. Anyway, uh you know, so if if you come meet me at the bar, I can talk to you about it. Well, what it doesn't bother you anymore, someone coming meeting me at the bar. So when's the last time so uh Matt? It's Matt, not Matthew, by the way, Nastasia.
+
+[4:10] Got it. Uh Patterson, but not related to the singer Mike Patterson, right? Uh not to my knowledge. All right. Um question, uh, what are your food likes, dislikes?
+
+[4:20] Like what do you do you cook? What's your deal? I need to know what your deal is if we're gonna be working here. By the way, he has not agreed to work here. They're having discussions at Heritage Radio uh Network about who is going to handle us, because apparently we are too tough to handle.
+
+[4:32] Well, just pain in the pain in the intense contractual discussions about this show. No way, really? Yeah, yeah. Are you joking? Nobody wants to.
+
+[4:40] Yeah. So since you're forced to do this for at least a couple of weeks, so what are your food likes and dislikes? Um, I do like cooking quite a bit. However, I will tell you that the only cooking I've done recently is I just I washed some gooseberries yesterday and I just ate them right now. That's about the closest I've come.
+
+[4:57] Does that count as cooking? Washing something? No. No. Yeah.
+
+[5:01] Yep. So other than that, uh, it's been a lot of dollar pizza and uh bagels. Where do you live? Uh I live in Sunset Park. How's the dollar pizza there?
+
+[5:10] Um there is none, which is why I have to yeah, it's horrible. You travel for dollar pizza? That's an interesting idea. I travel for work and then I end up at Dollar Pizza. Is there dollar pizza here or does that mean you just get a discount here?
+
+[5:20] The dollar pizza is what justifies the fact that I have to go through Manhattan to get from Brooklyn to Brooklyn from home to work. Oh, so you use the West Fourth Street dollar pizza, the one at uh on eighth street? Uh I was there the other day. You know it. Let me tell you something, people.
+
+[5:33] For those of you that have never been to New York City, everything here is expensive except for the dollar slice. Now, it sounds like they're all the same, but it's not the case. There are different quality levels of dollar slice. No one has done like the no one has done the the citywide tasting of dollar slices as far as I know. Now, there's there's dollar slice, which is traditional size slice, and then there is you ever had like huge slice, like uptown, way uptown there's cornette pizza, and their thing was huge slice, right?
+
+[6:00] Not a dollar, but huge. But the dollar slice, I have to say, for a one dollar food item is not bad. What do you think, Matt? I think it's great. I think people sometimes unjustly lump it in with actual pizza that costs more than a dollar, and that's not fair.
+
+[6:17] But otherwise, yeah, I'm I'm very pro dollar slice. Yeah, me too. And the things we um they toss the pot they toss the cheese and potato stuff and they use bad cheese. Yes, it's a dollar. It is a dollar.
+
+[6:30] It's a dollar. One dollar. And I'll tell you something else. It's the the only time panhandling is effective on me is when I'm walk because the dollar slice is less than a block from the bar from existing conditions. That particular dollar slice, which I happen to think is a high quality dollar slice.
+
+[6:46] So if someone's panhandling outside that so that they can obtain a dollar slice, well, hell. That makes a lot of sense. I'll buy them a dollar slice. You truly are brothers. I'm not gonna give you a dollar, but I'll buy you a dollar slice.
+
+[6:57] What about you, Nastasia? I just gave a kid a dollar for his basketball team, and then he said, cheapskate. And then I said, What? And he said, Thank you. Well, Nastasia's the kind of person that would take a bite out of the dollar slice before she gave it to somebody.
+
+[7:08] But the uh the thing also is like I actually I shouldn't say this. I sometimes we do second family like shift meal at the end of the night sometimes. If it's been like a rough night, people have been working real hard. And sometimes I get them the dollar slice. I got I got I walk in, because you know, the business doesn't reimburse for that.
+
+[7:25] It's out of my own pocket, I'm cheap as hell. And people they uh you know, they appreciate the dollar slice at the end at the end of a work day, especially because I, you know, put a whole boat ton of crushed red pepper flakes. By the way, Nastasia and I not only do we put huge amounts of crush red pepper flakes onto our pizza, but if you don't, we will judge you. You know what I mean? Yes.
+
+[7:44] Huge amounts of crush red pepper flakes. Uh so I spoke to the uh dollar pizza guy, uh Jack Shram, our head bartender, and I went to the this is about a month ago. We went to the the and I said to the guy, uh, yo, how many slices of pizza do you sell a day? And he said, uh I forget it was either five or six or six and seven hundred, but somewhere in that range, somewhere between five and seven hundred, right? A day.
+
+[8:06] So they're only pulling in, because I hardly ever see anyone upsell. You know, occasionally some some idiot will come in and be like, Can I have pineapple on my pizza? I was like, you're at the wrong store, my friend. So wrong of doing it so wrong. So wrong.
+
+[8:18] You hand the you hand the dude two dollars, he hands you two slices. That's the way this works. Anyway, so point is is that uh, you know, they're not selling a lot of ancillary crap. I hardly ever see people dipping into that drink case. It is just a like like a uh a line of slices like going out that door.
+
+[8:34] And so to have two to three human beings working in a place where you're renting something, and by the way, providing an actual food item for people to eat, to only have a revenue in the range of six hundred dollars a day and still like pay all those people, I don't understand how they do it. It's two hundred and sixteen thousand dollars a year. Yeah, but you're you have to you have to pay rent, you have to buy pizza items, you have to pay for the electricity to run the pizza ovens, because I don't think they're gas, maybe they are. And then uh, you know, yeah, you I mean you have to pay the people who are working there. So then we're like, so what do you so I'll say it's uh six to seven hundred, right?
+
+[9:09] So Jack was like, how many slices do you sell a day? Between six and seven hundred. And then Jack goes, okay, what's the most you've ever sold in one day? He goes, Between six and seven hundred. So like maybe it's like a robot.
+
+[9:21] Maybe that's how they get away with it. It's a real the guy always has the exact same look on his face. Like he always just stares about like three hundred yards away, even though the wall's only three feet from him. Just there's three hundred yards away and provides pizza for people. It's an interesting cross section there too, because you have people who actually like need dollar slice, but then you have like a wide spectrum of other people.
+
+[9:41] Like uh I I have a song I want to write that I never will called uh party dress dollar slice. Because you'll see like you know, people in their party dresses like pounding dollar slices in between whatever kind of you know party events they're going to, and you have like you know, you know, weasel school kids. It's kind of cool, you know what I mean? It's like it's interesting. Dave, you got a caller.
+
+[10:01] I got a caller? Hopefully it's about dollar slices. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, what's up, Dave? Doc uh Matt.
+
+[10:08] Hey, you're you're breaking up a little bit. Can you hear me now? We can hear you, but your connection is bad. Yeah, your connection's a little bad. What's up?
+
+[10:18] I have a problem right now. Um I've been making, I try to make uh lemon maccoons, and they spin out total crap. And I was wondering, because most of these recipes that you find online for the building for the macaroon, they call you to use lemon curd, like basic lemon curve for your lemon merengai. Right. But I wanted to make something like uh gelet, like a big jolle.
+
+[10:45] I was wondering if it was possible to make something with uh like ten diffused lemon juice and then maybe add some coloring and then adding some ultra tech or something that can thicken it up without making it too cloudy. What are your talking about? Okay, so uh what I'm hearing between the because your phone's real break really breaking up. If you're making uh macarons and you want to do a lemon filling, but you don't want to use traditional lemon curd, you want to make something with uh lemon juice and then thicken it up. And you were saying maybe I could use ultratex or something like this.
+
+[11:17] I would not use ultratex. Uh typically when we when we're doing stuff like this, I mean you can use some uh ultra text, but that's gonna be kinda yeah, I guess you could. I mean, um I would probably make a fluid gel out of it. So I I would probably make a um a lemon a lemon fluid gel with uh either agar or gel an 'cause you can make that r really thick and then it it pipes pretty well, right? So thicker than you would for something that's gonna be a sauce, so like a really pipable kind of fluid gel because those tend to have a a r really nice mouthfeel when they eat and they set really well.
+
+[11:52] But if if you don't if it doesn't need to wait a long time, if it doesn't need to sit a long time, my favorite thing for mouthfeel with uh with high acid stuff that's a little uh kind of out of the ordinary is if you do a a fairly stiff lemon fluid gel with agar and then add that to cream and then put that through a whipper, it's not a traditional like like super shelf stable mac macaroon filling because whipped cream isn't s that stable, but it forms like an acid mousse, an acid cream mousse, which doesn't break for like at least an hour. And that stuff is sick because it's got lemon and the cream, so it provides a really cool mouthfeel. But in general, if you just want more of the standard kind of jelly flavor and you and you because you're using something clarified, like um uh if you're gonna clarify the lemon juice, you want it to have more of like a uh you know that kind of like jelly like feel. I would do like a fluid gel with either agar or gel in, probably jelly perfect. And and then you said make the uh make the lemon agar mixture and then add some creamy and put it through eye thigh.
+
+[12:54] Uh yeah, like you can do it like pretty high ratio, actually. Um I forget because I haven't done it in a while, but you know, I added more acid, I added more lemon to it than you'd think, and what it does is that the the lemon fluid gel, or you can do cassis fluid gel or whatever, like whatever, like the fruit fluid gel you add to the cream, uh, just makes the cream texture unbelievably dense. So it's just like this like super dense foam. And it and at least when I've done it in the past, it takes a long time to break up. It's cool.
+
+[13:22] I like it. Perfect. And do you recommend when making it another question? When you when making the uh the macaroon mixture itself, do you recommend shifting the flour and the powder sugar? I look, I'm like, here's the thing.
+
+[13:40] I I like hesitate to even give any advice on uh macaron making at all because it's like people have devoted like many, many thousands of words and many hours and many batches to this on the internet. I would go to someone like Brave Tart and see what they say. But in general, um, for things that are light and airy and aren't gonna be beaten the hell out of when you're when you're making them. I almost always sift this stuff together just to get rid of lumps. Perfect.
+
+[14:07] All right, man. Thanks for your help. All right, let us know whether it works out. Perfect. Have a good one.
+
+[14:11] All right, you too. So we've been gone for a while, Nastasia. How long have we been gone? A long time. Like two, three weeks.
+
+[14:17] Let's talk about LA first because I want to say a nice thing to you. No, it's not nice. Okay, so I want to say something about LA. So we're in LA. I was gonna say something.
+
+[14:26] Let me say this first. We're in LA. We're in LA. Nastasi and I are in LA, and we're doing uh Spins All Demos. Spins all demos.
+
+[14:33] Uh Booker and Dax outreach to, you know, the other coast, the coast we don't live on, right? So we went to LA. And Nastasia has this deal with Tesla. Ever since yeah. Ever since we ever since we've ever since we've, I don't know, she has some sort of, I don't know how the hell she knows the Tesla people.
+
+[14:52] But anyway, point is she loves Tesla. She's on the list to get one of the cars when when you know they finally finish making them all. Like she has been a Tesla supporter since way back in the way back, right? Huge Tesla supporter. So somehow, check this off.
+
+[15:05] Also, Nastasia, I don't know if you know this people, huge risk taker. You think so? Nastasia rented from Tesla, they were gonna give her like the $40,000 Tesla. No, they weren't. They were like, we're giving you this one.
+
+[15:17] No, she got like a hundred and fifty thousand dollar Tesla rental for the weekend. And like, and they said, Do you want to take out the insurance? She's like, nah. And she doesn't have her own car insurance, which means she's completely uninsured, which means if she smashed that car, she's out 150,000. Oh my god.
+
+[15:34] So anyway, the reason she wanted this particular vehicle, Matt, are you a car person? Uh no, not really, but you know, go. All right. So she gets the one with ludicrous mode, meaning like all the wheels are driven like a mother, like hardcore, zero to sixty miles an hour in get this 2.5 seconds. I did the math on that.
+
+[15:56] That is faster acceleration than free fall, i.e., it's going faster on the ground than if you dropped it off of a building. No. That is awesome. That is awesome. Except for when she does it on a side street in LA, you're like, ah.
+
+[16:13] Her mom burst into tears when she did ludicrous mode. Or Nastasia puts her mom in the in the shotgun seat, or as we used to call it, the death seat when I was a kid. Hits punches ludicrous mode and makes her mom burst into tears. The worst was when the wheels weren't aligned and I did it and I had to swing it back. Oh, you did uh you did like a racing 180 other thing?
+
+[16:34] Ah jeez, Louise. I have a question though. At the end of the day, did she need the insurance? No. No, you know, Nastasia's very lucky.
+
+[16:41] Like this other time, like I was uh with the I mean Nastasia has many things. Lucky is one of them. Like we were in a we were in a zip car. It's not just luck, she like also like Nastasia. I'm like a man when I drive.
+
+[16:53] What do you mean? I'm not like what do you mean? That has no meaning. Anyway, so like Nastasia Lopez is renting a zip car. And I don't know if any of you have ever parked in New York City, but a lot of our parking lots here, like it's not like in LA where valet means someone's gonna actually come get your car and take it and park it and like pretend that they care about you as a human being.
+
+[17:12] Like here, it's like you're not waiting for a valet, you're waiting for the attendant. And the attendant does not give a crap. So there's a long line of people waiting for the attendant. Like long line, like a 45 minute line. Yeah.
+
+[17:27] Like just to park your car. And these people are all getting super pretzel, super bent. You know what I mean? And we, Nastasi and I, where have we gone? We had gone to Cosmer.
+
+[17:36] We had gone to talk to the soda people back, and we thought we were gonna be uh soda entrepreneurs, uh, which we are not. And so, like, so we come back from talking, and by the way, that soda guy was a freaking lunatic. More on that later. If we ever have to if anyone wants to know about soda lunatics, we can talk about soda lunatics. Uh and we can talk about, we we will we will not talk about, but you if you find me at the bar, we can talk about Nastasia's family's feeling about how soda bottling plants work.
+
+[18:03] And and the You would never guess. You would never guess. And Nastasi and I are gonna make for her mom a special towel we can describe later on, you know, when buy it on Etsy. We talk about how the Lopez family thinks soda is bottled and or can't. I'll give you a hint.
+
+[18:24] It requires callusing and genitalia. And genitalia. Anyway, but so like like uh we'll leave it right there. Anyway, so uh we're back, there's a 45-minute line, and Nastasi just pulls around the line into the get out zone. She's coming into the oncoming traffic area because ain't no one leaving because the cars are way in the park, right?
+
+[18:43] And people are honking, honking, honking, honking, and uh a guy gets out of his car with you know that like eyebrows straight, like that eyebrow is like diving into his the bridge of his nose. He's so angry, like you know, snot and spit flying out of his face. He's like, we're all waiting here. He's like, Nastasi just looks at him and goes, not my car, don't care. And then walks away.
+
+[19:05] That guy's job satisfaction was through the roof at that minute. It's true. Anyway, back to LA. So we had a barbecue, and Dave was right. He was like, I don't think this is a good idea because it's not gonna be done correctly.
+
+[19:23] The cooking is not gonna be done. It was just me and our PR person, Rebecca, and we had a bunch of stuff that we were gonna make. And the barbecue was gonna start at 6 p.m. Dave Sight got in at 5 20, so we got there right at 6. And when you entered, what was going on?
+
+[19:39] Oh my God. We had a lot of important people there. It was an awesome house under the Hollywood sign. So the house is crazy, first of all. It was clearly a sex party house back in the 60s.
+
+[19:50] Because it's like a lot of giant bedrooms with a lot of mirrors and a lot of windows. Under the Hollywood signs. Very little privacy, right? So it's like it's designed such that there's no way you can take a shower without everyone seeing that you're taking a shower. So much so that Nastasi was like, you have to go downstairs and lie face down while I take a shower just to ensure that you don't accidentally go outside and you know, it's crazy.
+
+[20:14] And you know, uh, you know, this you know, Mama Cass, I guess they say introduced uh Nash DeCrosby there, and the association lived there, and they're recording Cherish and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Cool house. Yeah. Anyway, Dave walks into this party. I walk in, and it's supposed to be we're showcasing the spinzall and the and the sears all.
+
+[20:33] Let me keep in mind, people, that Nastasia Lopez is a business partner in Booker and Dax LLC and has theoretically been using centrifuges and Sears all for years. Let's just start with that. Right? It wasn't a Sears that the worst. I'll just give you a hint.
+
+[20:48] I'll give you a hint. So we're doing steaks and we're gonna do, we're gonna finish them off, right? Uh, with the cereizol. And so I walk in, Dustassi's like, how do you want me to cook a steak? So I'm like, Really?
+
+[20:57] You don't know how to cook a freaking steak at this point in your life? Just do 55. You will do 55, put them in a bag, no salt, because it's gonna be cooked more than you know, four hours, more than that later. If we talk about it, I want you to do it uh, you know, an hour and a half to two hours at and she lied. She said they were two inches thick, they were like an inch thick, which is a different number, Nastasia.
+
+[21:14] Two in one are different. Uh I said, cook it at like 55 because I thought it was two inches uh steak for like two hours, drop the temperature to 52, let it ride and drop for maximum four hours on the drop, minimum one hour, maximum four hours on the drop, and we'll finish them off. It'll be perfect. I walk in. It's a man with the beard and a dress cooking all your food.
+
+[21:36] That's true. That is also true, but you know, not germane to the discussion hand. The steaks are in a metal pot, which for those of you that know, I don't advocate using a metal pot because garbage way to do it, uncovered, right? So the thing's uncovered, so it can't retain the heat. It's being used as a doorstop on the floor.
+
+[21:58] But the good news about not covering it and not retaining the heat is they had failed to turn the circulator on. No, it was at 55. Oh, yeah, sorry, it was at 55 Fahrenheit. For four hours. For four hours.
+
+[22:11] No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, Nastasia, you know that the circulator doesn't have a freaking cooling function, right? And then it's 88 degrees in this house, which is still not enough to cook the dang steak.
+
+[22:26] So rookie, I stick my hand in, and Nastasia's like, well, we're still gonna serve it. And I was like, okay, incubation queen. You've been incubating bacteria in this mother for four hours. First of all, didn't follow my instructions to drop the temperature, even regardless of what's going on. I can't believe she didn't drop it to 52 Fahrenheit.
+
+[22:45] That was the thing that screwed it up. So, like, and you know, and also like the stuff hadn't been like clarified right because she told, so Austin Hennelly, who's at uh Major domo, who knows how to use a centrifuge, because we've been using a lot, he was like, Should I use D1 and D2, which are you know, wine finding agents uh in the centrifuge? And Nastasi was like, nah, don't bother. And I was like, What? Austin, of course, was right.
+
+[23:10] Nastasi's like, nah, no. Why add steps? Why add steps? So then the idea was is we're serving champagne, well, champagne, champagne in the generous sense of champagne. It was kava, right?
+
+[23:22] Yeah. Yeah. So we're serving like sparkling wine cocktails, because it's easy and it's fun. So we were doing California peaches, which by the way were delicious. And strawberries, delicious.
+
+[23:32] We were making clarified you know stuff and then adding the clarified stuff to the thing. So I was like, so I was like, I'm bringing a regulator, I'm bringing all this stuff. I was like, and Don Lee, my partner, has this awesome regulator where it's like you just bring this tiny regulator, tiny, and you screw it onto a soda stream and you can carbonate with the soda stream. No soda stream. None of the product is cold, so I can't carbonate it anyway, even if I theoretically had a soda stream.
+
+[23:55] And worse than that, because I showed up as the party was started, they had drank all the kava before I could put the stuff into it. And and she only bought four bottles of kava. No, there was eight. So Austin Hennelly, by the way, former BDX guy now at at you know Major Domo came up with what might be the greatest drink innovation in the world. So I want to give credit to.
+
+[24:23] So we had a shall we say, some extra strawberry after the kava ran out, Nastasia. And so what I typically do with strawberry is you clarify strawberries, strawberry fresh strawberries are anywhere between the area of uh eight and like nine and a half bricks, meaning nine and a half percent sugar. So very wide range of sugar, depending on sugar. Depending on where oh my god, I know also. Also, she's like, Dazi's like, Can't you use powdered sugar?
+
+[24:47] And I'm like, Nastasia, powdered sugar has freaking cornstorch in it, and you want me to stir it into a dang clarified thing, and then put that into freaking kava. Why don't you just take the kava, shake it, and spray it locker room style all over the damn deck. Jeez. Anyways, so you take your strawberry juice, and uh you can bricks test it or not, and someday I'll give you guys the formula, but it's super boring, so I won't do it on how like how given what the bricks of something is, how to figure out how much sugar to add to take the bricks up, but take it up to about 20 bricks, right? So now you have it, it's not simple syrup, it's still very much strawberry.
+
+[25:21] You add a little bit of sugar, take it to 20 bricks, do the same thing with the peaches, take it to about 20 bricks, add some salt to that, and then here's here. So we were supposed to pour that in the kava, but what uh Austin did does is he he pops the corona. The coronas were blessedly cold. Yeah, so you pour a couple of ounces out of the top of the corona and you top it with the strawberry until the whole thing turns red. And he didn't do this, but I wanted to shove the lime in.
+
+[25:47] So I've been doing it at the bar with mini uh high life ponies, the mini highlight ponies. I've been making like strawberry high life. Because you know, if it's meant if it's meant to be a champagne cocktail, you should use the champagne of beers. Champagne of beers. And I have to say, uh, you know, it is a low-quality individual kind of a sitch, but it is straight up good.
+
+[26:05] I would drink eight billion of those things. I swear to God. And the one thing I asked Dave was not to yell at me in front of my parents, and he did. Uh yeah. Just that doesn't sound like Dave.
+
+[26:17] That's the one thing I asked. Well, that it's not the one thing you asked. The one thing you like uh show no display. Matt, you you've heard the scenario I was involved in here, right? Yeah, I heard it.
+
+[26:30] I heard it. So like World class bar owner. How how am I supposed to kill the like James Beard? Creating the conditions for innovation, which is exactly what happened. That's true.
+
+[26:41] I like that. You're you know, you should belong in every Silicon Valley meeting. You need to move out there because that's how, you know, they think out there. But uh but the point being that how am I supposed to I didn't specifically yell or say anything mean. I was just like, I was shocked and uh uh appalled.
+
+[26:58] You know, I was appalled. In the end it was a great party. How am I supposed to show look, one of the things that my favorite things about my wife is that when she is shocked and appalled, you know it. You know what I mean? And it's the same thing with me.
+
+[27:12] Like like if I'm if I have to do something, so i i it if if random person comes up to me and says something shock and appalling, I generally just put a blank confused look on my face. Right? That's in general what I have. Blank confused. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:27] But if it's someone I'm working with, I can't hide that. You know what I mean? It was a great party. We're gonna do it again. We are gonna do it again.
+
+[27:34] Nastasia's in talks to make an even more exciting party. But I like that house. So if you should hear of somebody who owns a house near the Hollywood sign who mm, let's say randomly ends up dead and all of a sudden you hear on this radio program that Nastasia is moving to LA. You know what happened. It's a nice house.
+
+[27:59] It's like it's it's it's kinda stupid. You can't believe that it exists. The only problem with it is is it's hard to. We're talking about the house you really like and the fact that the view is the same from. Oh, well, so like, you know, I'm not an LA guy, but I was watching that show Bosch, that that Amazon detective show Bosch.
+
+[28:15] And uh that guy's house, like the view from that house, you see, the pollution, something about the pollution in LA makes the lights in LA. If you're up in the hills looking at LA, it's like super pretty. You know what I mean? It's like a paint, it's always scintillating. I love it.
+
+[28:31] Like, if I could have that view, I might live there. You know what I mean? Especially because it would mean, you know, like the thing that I love most about New York and hate most about New York is that you're constantly interacting with people. And I feel that in LA you never need to interact with anybody ever. Mm-hmm.
+
+[28:46] You know what I mean? Anyway, I don't know. Uh, should we answer some some questions? Or should I I'll talk about Harvard later if I have time, which I'm not gonna have time to talk about, right? Um we'll do some questions.
+
+[28:56] Uh okay, so Mildred from how do you think you pronounce this town? Watervliet. Watervliet? Water Water Vliet. Vliet Watervliet.
+
+[29:06] I think it's pronounced Watervleet. Sure. Watervleet. I don't know. I made it up.
+
+[29:10] So someone tell me. Someone tell me when I'm wrong, which I always am. Everyone knows I can't read things and pronounce things. What am I? You know, Mr.
+
+[29:16] Pronounce? Anyway. She writes in about an interesting sauce I had never heard of. My household has been using the highly underrated barbecue sauce from upstate New York named Cornell Sauce. Uh recipe below for over a decade now.
+
+[29:30] It's also what I grew up on as chicken barbecue. And it's not that overly sweet tomato-based stuff. You know, if people know I'm not a huge fan of uh barbecue sauces in general as a basting thing, but I am actually kind of pro the style of this, which we'll read about uh in a second. The style of it. Not that I've tried it, but theoretically I like the idea.
+
+[29:48] Uh it's what I grew up with for chicken barbecue, mainly at functions catered by Brooks Barbecue out of Oneanta. Uh, instead of just using it as a basting sauce, we've also been using it as a marinade, which I always like to butcher as a marinadum. Right? More on marinades later, by the way. If we do get time to talk about Harvard, one of the things I talked about at Harvard was uh the federal government's idiocy with liquid nitrogen, which I've talked about as nauseum here.
+
+[30:14] Uh there was there's been more since I talked about it, but I don't have time to go down that rabbit hole again. Um but the other thing I talked about was uh salting meat and and in the process of working on my book, reevaluating um salting meat beforehand and also re-evaluing marin marination. But again, probably won't have time to talk about that. So we've also been using this sauce as a marinade in part because one batch makes enough to cook five four to five whole chickens. How many times have you seen the Blues Brothers, Nastasia?
+
+[30:39] Once. What about you, Matt? How many times have you seen the Blues Brothers? Uh half a time a decade ago. Oh, come on, man.
+
+[30:46] Uh he orders uh four whole fried chickens, I think was what what uh John Belushi orders, uh, from Aretha Franklin. Uh and she's displeased. Uh we also have had success using it on boneless and skinless cuts of chicken and pork. Uh although, you know, you should not do that. Boneless, skinless chicken.
+
+[31:04] What are your thoughts on boneless skinless chicken? Boneless, I'm for skinless? No. Yeah. I don't mean my uh well, I don't I can get into it.
+
+[31:11] Okay. Now that I have an immersion circulator, I've been experimenting with using the sauce in a Ziploc with the chicken at 140 Fahrenheit, which is 60 Celsius Nastasia. For those of you that can tell the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius. Uh we love the results, but since there's a lot of extra uh tasty sauce uh in a bag, it's a shame not to do something with it. We've been trying to reduce it as a pan sauce of some sort, but there's been a couple of problems.
+
+[31:35] I hope you have some ideas on how to address them. It takes forever to reduce, even in a wide shallow pan. This means that the meat can cool off too much while I'm trying to reduce the liquid. This is a classic problem with uh pan sauces in bags. Uh not for this sauce, but in general, what I recommend doing if there's excess sauce in the bag and you know you're not gonna um use it right away, is tur depends on the temperature you're using, but uh for most temperatures that you're using in the bag, if you're doing a zippy, pull the bag, dump the sauce out, do a quick reseal on the bag, drop it back into the bath and let it sit in the bath for a couple of minutes while you futz with the sauce.
+
+[32:11] Almost all of the benefit of the sauce and all the marrying of the flavor between the meat and the sauce has already happened by that time. And you can keep it at cirque temperature while you're futzing with the sauce. This it's easy to do, it's not even that messy. Uh, it's totally fine. So that's one thing I would do uh right there.
+
+[32:30] Um so that hopefully I've solved problem number one. Two, the sauce stays well mixed in the bag while in the circulator, but starts to split the moment I pour it into a pan. I can deal with a uh good deal of uh I can do a good deal of whisk work and bring it back, but the moment I take it off the heat, it starts to split again. And since there's so much oil in there, I haven't given you guys the recipes yet, I find myself trying to pour off a layer of oil before I bring the bowl of sauce to the table. Uh and once it's uh at the table, you know, it breaks again.
+
+[32:57] Is there any way to stabilize it? Thanks. Uh I'll try to call in, but I'll give you the recipe, Mildred from Waterlet. Okay. Uh here's the recipe Cornell chicken recipe.
+
+[33:05] One cup cooking oil. I first of all, like for some reason, Cornell, this was actually done by Cornell and it's published all over the recipe, but they don't give it in standard recipe format. I appreciate standard recipe format of giving you the ingredients in the order in which they are used because it means that when you're reading the shorthand of the recipe, you have uh some conception of how the sucker is put together just by how they list the ingredients. Do you like it when people do that, Nastasia? Yes.
+
+[33:31] So uh I'm gonna this is not in in order. Uh one cup cooking oil, one pint cider vinegar. Talk about an old recipe calling for a pint of anything, right? Mm-hmm. And you say how much?
+
+[33:43] This is a pint. You mean two freaking cups? You mean 16 ounces? Jerks. Uh three tablespoons salt, and then they put a little asterisks because everyone has to be pseudo-health conscious now.
+
+[33:54] They're like, if you can't have this salt, don't use this. I'll put the salt in, please. Uh, one tablespoon poultry seasoning. Some people on the webs don't know what poultry seasoning is. And poultry seasoning is like God's gift to the 1970s.
+
+[34:06] It is the smell of Thanksgiving stuffing for me. Love that stuff. Uh, you know, it's a it's a mixture of dried powdered herbs and it tastes and smells like like old school like American 70s stuff. You like that stuff, right, Stuff? Yeah.
+
+[34:20] Poultry seasoning. Uh one half teaspoon uh pepper, and here is the key ingredient: one egg, one whole egg. So uh to give you an idea, what they're basically doing here is making a mayonnaise. You're making mayonnaise, but you're making a whole egg mayonnaise. So the recipe states that you put the egg in, you beat the hell out of the egg, you add the oil, right?
+
+[34:42] And then you know, you add the uh see what else they have. You add the oil, and then they mix the seasoning and all that, all the water-based stuff with the with the uh uh cider vinegar and add it at the end. So a whole egg mayonnaise, you don't need to add the liquid at the beginning because you have the egg yolk, which is an emulsifier, and then you have the egg white. And the egg white contains enough liquid to form the initial emulsion, and also, I think, and I've read this on the line, although I've never made really whole egg mayonnaise before, but the whole egg, um, the whole egg, the thickness of the white, I think also aids in forming the emulsion. Now, mayonnaise is a an oil-in-water emulsion, meaning the continuous phase.
+
+[35:23] The, you know, is if you put a fish into a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny microscopic fish into mayonnaise, it would be swimming through water around oil droplets, right? So the oil droplets aren't connected to each other. The water is what's called the continuous phase, and that's being formed by the egg white, and the proteins and the thickening in there probably help to uh what they call sterically inhibit uh or you know, stabilize the emulsion as it's being made to make the emulsion formation a lot easier than if you just use egg yolk alone, which is a standard mayonnaise. This is my guess. Then afterwards, so you have probably have a fairly thick uh mayonnaise there because it's one egg and a cup of cooking oil.
+
+[36:06] You then add a pint, a pint being two cups, which is quite a lot, of uh cider vinegar, which in you know my guess is gonna thin it out considerably, right, and make it tart. Now, the acidity from the vinegar is what's going to cause it to be uh food safe, even if it's not really cooked, right? Because the acidity is gonna prevent uh any kind of salmonella problems you're gonna get from the egg, yada yada yada. Okay, so that's how this this recipe works. Now, uh the problem when you're cooking it in, there's a couple problems from cooking it in the bag.
+
+[36:37] Now, when you're basting this on, by the way, listeners to this show will know that I'm an old-time believer in uh in basting grilled stuff with mayonnaise. Everyone knows that when I was a small child, I learned to baste fish in Cape Cod, especially specifically blue fish with mayonnaise before I grilled it. And I'm a huge fan of basting stuff with mayonnaise for a number of reasons, it you know can help form a nice crust. I also like mayonnaise and then panko over the mayonnaise, but it can help form a nice crust. The oil, uh it gets a good way for oil to stick to uh your stuff.
+
+[37:08] It tastes good. I like it. I'm a big fan of mayonnaise in grilling applications. This is fundamentally a mayonnaise, and you brush it on thin and you go thicker and thicker as you cook. So, you know, I'm cool with it.
+
+[37:18] Uh, when you're putting it in the bag, uh a couple of problems happen. Is one is the chicken is leaking out liquid, so you're further diluting. So when you're cooking normal chicken barbecue and you're basting it on, you're actually flashing off some of that moisture from uh the vinegar as you're cooking. You're reducing liquid. Here you're adding liquid because the liquid's coming out of the chicken and going into the sauce.
+
+[37:41] So one thing you could do right from the get-go is reduce the amount of vinegar that's in the sauce by a good chunk. And doing that will help you uh just by having a lower total liquid level in the sauce. Uh now to increase the acidity, you could use a higher acidity vinegar. So a classic American uh, what do they use? They use cider vinegar or something like this?
+
+[38:02] What are these cider vinegar? Uh, you could use like partially cider vinegar and partially the super strong Swedish stuff and still get a relatively because that's you know, cider vinegar is what, like 5% acidity somewhere there, you can get in that kind of range, you can still do it by reducing the liquid level. Um, so that's part of it, right? So that'll stop the need to reduce it so much because you won't have added that much liquid at the get-go. The other thing I would really recommend doing uh is uh and I think one part of your problem here with the breaking might have to do with the fact that you're using whole egg.
+
+[38:34] Uh so what might be happening is is that as you cook in the bag uh at six, well, you're only at 60, right? 140 is 60. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to the egg white proteins in that in that regimen. Typically, 60 shouldn't be enough to set the egg white. Maybe in the pan it is, and you're heating it in the pan.
+
+[38:55] I my guess was that there's something about the protein in the egg white that is uh, you know, kind of almost pargelling a little bit and then causing syneresis break, and by doing that, causing the emulsion to break. My guess is that it's something in the egg white. So I would try doing uh a more direct mayonnaise, i.e., one that doesn't contain egg white. Or you could try stabilizing this, it changes the flavor, but you could try stabilizing this with a little bit of um mustard. You could also try freezing the egg yolks, that'll make a thicker and more stable uh emulsion, salting the egg yolk a little bit before and freezing it.
+
+[39:36] But I really think it has something to do with uh the egg white. So I would reduce the quantity of overall liquid so it doesn't thin out as much, and then I would try it without egg white to see if that works. And if you like the flavor of mustard, I would add a little bit of mustard because once the emulsion is formed, that should help it um stay. What do you think, Stas? Should we take a break?
+
+[39:58] Matt doesn't care. This week's secret ingredient is Protein Pancake Mix. Nastasia, tell us what you'd make. Pancakes for one. Wait, what is this for one?
+
+[40:37] Don't you ever cook for any other people? Not in the morning. Alright, let me tell you something. I've actually used uh Bob's Red Mill Protein Pancake Mix. And here let me make one suggestion to you if you're using this.
+
+[40:48] Follow their instructions. So uh I looked at their instructions and it looked like the pancake batter was too thin compared to my standard pancake batter, but because of the mix, it needs to look thinner than it would look for a standard pancake mix. So, like, I know if if you out there are anything like me and you like to improvise with things, give the recipe as written on the package a shot before you go, before you go change in, right? Don't go changing. Right?
+
+[41:20] Because like uh what I when I was like, I'm gonna thicken this sucker up because it looks too thin to me. It they got real tall and cakey. So try their recipe first because your what your eyeballs and your hands tell you is uh what they tell you for normal AP flour pancake mix if you're used to making these things. And this is a different mix, it cooks up differently. So try the recipe first before you go your own merry way.
+
+[41:45] Thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob's Redmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use the code cooking issues25 for 25% off your order. And we are back. Well, I want to say we, it's me.
+
+[42:11] Nastasia's actually going to get the pizza right now that we normally eat afterwards because I'm here. You're Matt's here. Matt's here with you. Yeah, and Matt's not. So Matt said that on the uh on the uh chat room there, people were saying uh talking blenders, and should I get uh the question was what?
+
+[42:26] Should I get a blend tech or an omni blend, or should I just get the Vitamix? Truth. Yeah. Uh I don't have any experience with uh Omni Blend. I like that name because it sounds, you know, like it can like it's kind of om omniscient.
+
+[42:38] It can blend everything, omni. It's like all knowing and also omni blending, which theoretically I like it, but I can't speak to it because I have never used it. Uh I have used the Blend Techs and Blend Tech and Um although I enjoy their web series called Will It Blend, uh I would highly recommend you get the uh Vitamix. Um the Blend Tech has a couple of things. Blend Tech is the only company that uh seems to believe that a plane bearing in the bottom of their uh blender pitcher is the way to go.
+
+[43:11] They're also the only people who believe that a blunt blade is uh the way to go. Also, uh they might have redesigned it in the past couple of years, but the one that I used to use, uh the pitcher leaked unbelievably. Now, everybody who uses a Vitamix knows that like the one kind of problem with a Vitamix is that you still need to use that plunger. Um Nastasi's going past me here. Uh still have to use that uh that plunger, but uh look, I I would all I would just go with the uh the Vitamix.
+
+[43:43] I mean like it's just more it's just more chefy. You know what I mean? It's just more you interact with it better. I, you know, it's like uh the the I've used some of the newer Vitapeps that that do some of the things that Blend Tech does, and I dislike them. I like the old style one.
+
+[43:59] Here's what I want. When I turn on the Vitamix, I just want, and I said this a million times, I'll say it one more time, and then I'll leave it alone. I want two freaking flap switches and a knob for the speed. That's it. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:16] So my brother-in-law, he's like registered, he was getting the you know, one of the new Vitapreps when he got married a couple years ago to my sister, and he was like, Should I register for the one with all the like the preset settings like smoothie? I was like, no. Two switches and a knob. And he was like, Yeah, yeah, but it has two switches and a knob, and it has all these other settings. I was like, no, no settings, two switches and a knob.
+
+[44:42] You know what I mean? Because like everything else gets in the way. And then eventually I was like, yo, Tom, if you don't want to hear what I'm saying, don't ask me. But like, I think all of that other garbage gets in your way. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:54] It's like, and especially like they're all like auto-ramped up, all this like stuff gets in your way. It's like just give me control over the damn blender. He went, he went with all the fixings though, didn't he? My brother? Come on.
+
+[45:07] Listen to you. He did, he did. He went, he's like, he's like, but it's just adding stuff. That's where people are wrong. Just adding stuff is actually taking stuff away because usually when somebody adds what they call, as my dad would say with big quotation marks, features.
+
+[45:23] So my dad's an engineer, and whenever they would break something, like whenever something would get broken or something bad would happen to it. They, they you know, my dad would say, What you need to do is remarket that as a feature, right? Whatever crappy thing you've done, remark it as a feature. So whenever they add a feature or something like that, typically they encrap in the core functionality, right? So it's very rare that someone will like add a we just added a program.
+
+[45:50] And then what they're doing is they're putting some sort of logic in between the switches, the knob, and the blender motor. And by putting logic in between it, I guarantee that they've encrappened the experience of using the tuned switches and the knob. Guarantee. I'm so glad you used the word encrappen twice, because I was gonna say it's my early nomination for word of the year. Really?
+
+[46:12] Nice, nice, sweet. People use it. It's the word of the year, it's the it's it's gonna be the word of the year. Just wait for it. Um anyway, have nothing to say about uh omniblend.
+
+[46:21] So we had a question in from uh Christoffer, who uh claims to be a Swedish low-quality individual, which I like that. I like that people uh all over the world realize that we are all individuals of low quality. Over the last few years, there's been a debate about additives in flour and baking in general, gaining some traction here in Sweden. The most common item to attack is ascorbic acid in flour and industrial flour in general. It is looked down on because, in their opinion, it kills the flour, ridding it of all its nutritional value, uh making it less natural.
+
+[46:53] The discussion is led mainly by bakers touting their opinions as fact without backing them up with any academic research. Is ascorbic acid in flour evil? Is it uh is it the latest in a row of mind control drugs introduced into our diet by the government? Ooh, wouldn't that be nice? Mind control drugs.
+
+[47:10] Imagine if I could put mind control drugs in the food that and stuff that we serve. Imagine a pasta flyer, if you could put mind control drugs in. What would you have your guests do? I don't know. I'm not sure.
+
+[47:22] Like something though. Right? If you had some sort of mind control, you'd you'd start piping. I don't know. You'd need to organize it such that like the mind control happened.
+
+[47:31] You'd need to organize a flow such that they went in one door and out a different door so that you could mind control on the way out after they've already had the mind control drug. Yeah. Anyway. Mine would be a subtle change. They would just religiously tune into cooking issues every week from then on.
+
+[47:46] Oh, see? Nice. I like that. Uh so uh, or are these bakers simply elitists who disregard anything made in a factory? Uh thanks.
+
+[47:57] Uh so the and then he adds afterwards, even more curious is the amount of craft bakers who maintain some claim to authenticity/slash tradition and who use organic flowers but regularly add ascorbic acid to their bread. All right, so it's like a here and there. Uh I think it's not just elitism. First of all, it's it's complicated, right? Uh, this kind of thinking, this kind of religious thinking about bread, food stuff in general, but in bread, uh, goes all the way back to the uh early 1800s, at least in the United States, anyway.
+
+[48:34] Like you see the first glimmerings of this with uh Sylvester Graham. So in the early part of the uh 1800s, Sylvester Graham was very upset by the new grinding and milling technologies that were being used uh to mill flour, and he thought that the that these milling technologies destroyed uh the flour, and also because they were using different wheat, not using the same wheat that was grown in the in the east, right? They were using this kind of um you know harder wheat, that somehow that was also kind of destroying flowers, but it wasn't, with him. It's really interesting because it was specifically the milling technology and the and the removal of bread from being made by women, specifically mothers and wives, right? Because this is a highly gendered and you know, highly sexist uh environment.
+
+[49:23] Uh he thought that there was something wrong with it, and that a baker, a professional baker, could not make a good loaf of bread because it didn't have that kind of love factor. It took on a religious tone. And so Graham Bread, he was uh he hated any form of industrialization in bread, including bakers, right? Uh what's funny about it is that if you actually read Graham's uh treatise on bread making, which I've read several times, there is lunacy, and most of the time when people become religious about their foodstuffs, it comes with a whole other host of crazy beliefs. So with Sylvester Graham, it was also, you know, he was big on the you know, no masturbation, don't touch yourself, anti-sex, anti-body, anti-enjoyment.
+
+[50:08] Uh he was also teetotler, the whole the whole the whole thing. So his religious ideas on bread came with a whole host of other um, you know, weird and demented beliefs uh that were complexed in you know early 19th century uh America. And similarly, people today, not they don't have the same complex of beliefs, but usually when you have a religious feeling about how bread should be made or how anything should be made, it comes along with other beliefs. And if you read some of the websites about this, you'll see a lot of these kind of uh uh buzzwords. So if you see someone saying, this is a website called sourdough.
+
+[50:47] There can be no claim to ascorbic acid being natural, in quotes, even though the latter term is devalued by modern marketing, it has an inherent meaning, which clearly excludes chemical refining, right? So this is a religious notion. So the idea that uh what's it's telling me I'm running out of time. So like this is kind of a religious notion of what natural means. And if you look, I looked at the Sustained website, which is the campaign for real bread, which is I guess an English outlet uh you know outfit, and it for there it's like showing you as kind of having a natural failing, falling back on an artificial additive, um, etc.
+
+[51:24] etc. It's seen as kind of a personal failing. Um to me, it it's not evil, by the way. Like if you want to use it, use it. If you don't, don't.
+
+[51:35] There is an honor, I think, in someone saying, I want to see what I can accomplish using only these ingredients, right? So someone's like, I only want to use flour, salt, water, yeast, right? Or even people, some people, I don't want to use yeast, I'm only gonna use natural leavens, right? And it, you know, and then they're like, I'm all about working very hard to manipulate those particular ingredients by my choice of wheat, by my choice of grinding technique, by etc. etc., by how I need, by my proofing, by all this.
+
+[52:06] And I'm interested in removing all other aspects because there is a richness uh in only interacting with these ingredients, and by giving myself these constraints, I become a better baker and more in tune with my ingredients, and I feel better as a professional, as a person, and I like the bread I bake better. This is all reasonable because these aren't religious statements. When you start saying that for other people that adding ascorbic acid is bad for X, Y, or Z reason because somehow it doesn't, as I've read on these websites, belong to the great lineage of bread. Like now you're talking bread having like a lineage in that sense is like real weird. Now you're getting into kind of religious speak.
+
+[52:44] So there is nothing wrong uh with adding it. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with saying I don't want to use anything but these four ingredients so that I can so that I can find out what it means to just play with these ingredients in a very deep and rich way. Uh what do you think? Think I did that answer question? Done.
+
+[53:04] Done. And we're out of time, so I don't get to answer Austin's question about uh I don't get to add Austin's question about uh um Carbon A drinks. I'll do it next time. Next time. Next time.
+
+[53:16] We're back next week. We're not gonna miss any more weeks soon. Back next week. And uh hopefully, Matt, you back next week? He doesn't know yet.
+
+[53:22] Oh, yeah. All right, he's back next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[53:39] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[54:07] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. I'm HRN's communications director Kat Johnson with a preview of this week's episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup.
+
+[0:30] We decided it's high time we do an episode about Mary Jane. Marijuana, things are happening. That's right. This episode is about pot. We're exploring the rhetoric surrounding legalization in New York's recent gubernatorial primaries.
+
+[0:47] And a cheesemonger turned cannabis consultant shares the tricks of the trade. Great. So do you want to conquer the world? Do you want to have hazy eyes? Do you want to, you know, just relax all day and be floaty?
+
+[1:00] And we find out how one exemplary South Carolina farmer is trying his hand at a new crop. Every plant that comes up from seed is different. And so it's it's learning how the plant grows, how it responds, and then familiarizing myself and my senses with this plant. Plus, Hannah Ford and I taste test the hottest new cocktail ingredient, CBD. So subscribe to Meet and Three wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when the newest episode of Meet and Three drops.
+
+[1:52] It's supposed to be noon, but it's like 12, 1215, to about, you know, 1.45, uh, 1245, 1 o'clock. Front of Earth's P3 in Bushwig Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who's she has a mic malfunction here. Okay, I got it. Remember back when Janet Jackson had a wardrobe malfunction?
+
+[2:10] Yeah, and you know who's responsible for that? Me. What do you mean you? How are you responsible for that? I wrote the I was working at MTV News, and the day before I put up an article that said there's like gonna be something crazy happening on the what was it?
+
+[2:27] Super Bowl or VMAs? I can't remember. Super Bowl, I think. Yeah. Um, and then that happened the next day, and then I took down that article because they told me to, because it looked like we knew about it.
+
+[2:39] And then everyone was like, oh my god, I took down the article. And then I had to put it back up. It was a whole thing. Little did they know that they were dealing with one of the world's great conspiracy theorists, Nastasia Lopez. Nastasia has all sorts of massive magical thinking about I wish, I wish Nastasia could cause half of the harm she mentally inflicts on people.
+
+[2:59] Uh yeah, or the good. I have magical. When do you think good thoughts about people? I think good thoughts about it. What was the last good thought?
+
+[3:06] Example. Yeah. Oh. Speaking of which, that's Matt in the booth. And by the way, people, ring a ding-ding.
+
+[3:11] Matt is our permanent new engineer. Per really? Permanent. He accepted the job, huh? Yeah, and I will have you know, cooking issues listeners.
+
+[3:21] Dave, formerly Dave in the booth, saw him at existing conditions. Indeed, does not hate us, just got a different job. Awww. Yeah, got a different job. Doesn't hate Dave in the booth, not a hater.
+
+[3:34] So that's good. I like to think he's just in a different booth now. That's true. That is true. He's in a different booth hat.
+
+[3:41] I don't know whether he wants me to talk about what his new job is, but it seems pretty cool. Um I hope you enjoyed the drinks he had at uh at the bar. Uh so yeah, Matt, how was uh wait, wait, wait, finish this example of a good thought you've had about people, Nastasia. Well, I think it's more I want something and then I make it happen. So a good thought about yourself.
+
+[3:59] Yeah. When was the last time you wished something good for a human that was not yourself that didn't benefit you directly? Never. Boom. A little insight, people.
+
+[4:09] A little insight. Uh speaking of doing good for people, uh Nastasia and the Pasta Flyer crew, including my son, Booker Arnold, pasta flyer employee. Um did the Michael J. Fox uh benefit how'd that go? Good.
+
+[4:25] Have we discussed Michael J. Fox in the air before? Which D bag go well. I can't say who it is. You call them a D-bag to their face?
+
+[4:33] No, but in a roundabout way, and I regret it. Well, hook me up. It's a roundabout way of calling somebody a D bag. He was affiliated with the event. Right.
+
+[4:42] And a supporter of not Michael J. Fox, though. Supporter of the fund. And I uh like an hour into the party, I was like, man, the D baggery here is strong, huh? And he was like, I don't understand what you're talking about.
+
+[4:57] Wait, wait, so you're saying that what he had organized was real douchey, thereby calling him a douche? Yeah. And he was like, then you must think that I'm a douchebag. And you were like, no comment, yes. You're like, Oh no.
+
+[5:12] Yeah. If the vinegar and water fits, I feel fill it up. I do feel bad about that. Yeah, you sound like you feel you look like that. No, I do.
+
+[5:19] I feel like that's a good one. She has a dry smile on her face, people, so she feels real bad. I feel bad about it. So have we have we discussed Mojo Nixon and Michael J. Fox before?
+
+[5:27] I think so. On air. Probably not. I think I've discussed it with you a million times and you brought it up. But for the anyone out there knows the musician Mojo Nixon, formerly of Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper.
+
+[5:39] Their sec first or second most famous song was Elvis Is Everywhere. The theory of the song. On air? I don't think so. Anyway.
+
+[5:50] Anyway, Elvis is everywhere, Elvis is every being, Elvis is everybody, Elvis is still the king. Elvis lives inside of you and me. Basically, how the lyrics go. And the theory of it is that every one of us, everything, has Elvis in it, with the exception of the one evil anti-elvis. The anti-elvis has no Elvis in him, and then he goes, Michael J.
+
+[6:11] Fox has no Elvis in him. Nope, like that. And so I I want to know all these years later, everything Michael, because this was back in like when he was playing what's his name on what was his show where he was the uh family ties? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was back in those days.
+
+[6:25] I want to know if at long last Mojo Nixon believes that there's Elvis inside of Michael J. Fox. What do you think? Do you think there's any Elvis in him? I can see how there could be Elvis in him now.
+
+[6:35] You think there's Elvis in him? Mm-hmm. I don't think I think no one who no one who wasn't actively listening to weird alternative music in like 1990 has any idea what the hell I'm talking about right now. I mean, I don't think they're correct. I don't think Mojo Nixon ever made it beyond like hyper niche.
+
+[6:53] I own several of his albums. What about Reverend Horton Heat, Matt? You know that stuff? I am aware of Reverend Horton Heat, but no, not really. Wow.
+
+[7:01] Wow. Alright. Sorry. Alright. So any other good uh food and or drink stories, Nastasia?
+
+[7:08] No. Did we ever talk about what we did in LA? We did. We ran out of time, right? Uh we Yeah, we didn't really talk about the demos and the major domo.
+
+[7:14] Is there anything important to talk about? Major Domo was really, really good. That's the uh the Momofuku outfit out of uh out of Los Angeles there. Yeah, but did we talk about what we did? I don't even remember.
+
+[7:29] We talked about the party and the the barbecue. Yeah. Because I feel like before that we hadn't been here for a long time and we've done like lots of stuff, but I can't remember what the hell we've talked about. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:40] Like, did we talk about did I talk about my lecture at the Harvard? No. Really? Mm-hmm. I didn't talk about meat and salt and enzymes.
+
+[7:50] I did a little bit. Anyway, whatever. Let's go to some questions. Oh, by the way, call in your questions too. 718497-2128.
+
+[7:56] That's 718497-2128. And uh I'm interested whether Mildred, remember last week? Mildred from Watervliet? Yeah. I'm interested what's going on with I w I haven't had time by the way, people, I don't know if you know this.
+
+[8:09] Like uh I'm running a bar now. So other than other than I take like one and a half days off. So I don't have as much time for cooking anymore, and I don't have time even really to cook at the bar, although we have some cool new stuff coming up. By the way, our turkey sandwich got written up in uh in the magazine the other day. You see that?
+
+[8:28] We have a good turkey sandwich. Uh I don't have as much time for cooking. It's kind of pathetic. I need the br I need to make some time to cut out to do some cooking, especially because I'm actually starting. You hear this people?
+
+[8:39] I'm actually starting. Nastasia doesn't believe it. October 2nd. I'm actually starting. 2018.
+
+[8:44] Let's remember that date. To really write the book. I'm actually starting to really write the book. Um and I'm about to order. You know how I work, Nastasia.
+
+[8:54] I'm about to order a bunch of crap so that I can I saw it. What? Was it Amazon stuff? No, not that. I oh I have a I have a bunch of secrets that I wish I could tell you about because all you guys would love it.
+
+[9:07] You guys would really love it. I have. For those of you that know me, uh, for years, what have I always wanted to have at the bar, Nastasia? Uh I don't know. Come on.
+
+[9:17] Well, something that I've never been able to really do at the bar that I've always wanted to do. Oh, pinata? Yeah. Yes, pinata. So you told me about this.
+
+[9:24] Yeah, but you, not anyone out there. So I have figured out, I think, people, I think I have figured out a set. So the have I talked about this on air at all? Probably. I can't remember.
+
+[9:35] What's the problem with pinatas in a bar? Dangerous. Why? Your mic isn't working then. Oh no.
+
+[9:41] Okay, now we can hear you. What? I'm good. Um hey, you got not one, but two callers on the line. Alright, alright.
+
+[9:46] So if anyone cares about pinatas, we can talk about it later. Yeah, bring it back. Caller, you're on the air. Hello. Caller?
+
+[9:59] Alright, were we waiting for the caller to come on? Yeah. While we're waiting for the color, pinata. The dangerous part about a pinata is what? Could hurt somebody.
+
+[10:06] Because? Because of bat. And if you're gonna have guess it's not even even if they weren't drunk, right? It's not a good idea to swing a bat around inside. Yeah.
+
+[10:15] Especially because at our bars, we are known to have bats around because all of our employees signed a bat anyway, right? So that there's a couple of problems. First of all, you can't let someone swing anything inside. Second of all, a drunk person swinging something inside. So what's the solution?
+
+[10:30] You want me to say it? No, no, no. Mentally, what do you already know the answer? So, people out there, I have the solution. I own the solution.
+
+[10:38] I own nine-tenths of the parts for a solution. By next week, this time. How much are you gonna charge for it? That's a good question. So, like, it's an amazing, first of all, I have not.
+
+[10:49] Don Lee, my partner, is gonna hate this freaking idea. He doesn't even know. No! No, of course he doesn't know. I have to finish it and demonstrate it because he's gonna say no out of hand.
+
+[10:59] If I just tell him what I'm gonna do. Are you gonna fill it with candy or with little alcoholic bottles? Not with little alcoholic bottles. You can't have any first of all, you can't give alcohol away like that and have people running around with alcohol. Secondly, you can't uh, you know, you don't want little like you know objects like little bottles flying around.
+
+[11:16] Uh you can get plastic minis, but plastic minis can still break, and plastic minis hurt when they hit you. You ever been hit by a plastic mini? I mean, I know you've hit people with plastic minis before. Nastasia, well-known fact, about eight years ago, threw a beer can across a bar at someone and hit him square. You know that point in the back where when like someone's running a zombie is running away from you in a video game and you hit them and the arms just fly out like in in Jesus pose, and then they just like fall over flat like a board or crumple down.
+
+[11:45] Nastasia did that with a big old tall boy of marragansett at a bar about eight years ago. And I was like, wow, you are one crazy person, Nastasia. You are just loony boons. So I think that's a perfect place. I believe I have the caller back.
+
+[12:00] Alright, cool, cool. Caller, you're on the air. Hello, oh Dave. Hello in a second. Hey, how are you doing?
+
+[12:06] I'm doing great. Hope you're doing great too. Yeah. I have a chemistry question. Oh, good.
+
+[12:11] I'm entering a chili cook-up. There's a prize for most innovative. I'd like to make crystal chili. Clear chili. Clear chili chili.
+
+[12:20] Is there a chemical way to remove the color from a broth? So it becomes like totally clear, like crystal Pepsi. Like crystal Pepsi. Well, how are you gonna make the meat clear? Um, so what I've done so far, I've done a couple experiments.
+
+[12:41] Um I've managed to do pretty good by making it chili, straining it, um, using agar clarification to make it fairly transparent, and then gelling that uh into agar meat cubes. Um I don't know about agar beat tubes, like nothing solid is getting further than strain. Right. So it's just like chili juice. So this is more like a chili-flavored consume, is what you're saying.
+
+[13:08] There's not it's not gonna be chunky like a chili. Correct. Unless I chop up the jelly part of it and make it into like a mask band. Right. If you want to go really gross, by the way, you can bleach all of the color out of uh meat with a strong basic solution, like the way they do for loot fisk, and you can fundamentally make it transparent.
+
+[13:31] I think it'll probably taste even after you leach the bleach bat, uh the uh sorry, base I say bleach, I meant base, uh like basic, like a basic solution like sodium hydroxide. I think they use potassium hydroxide though, but um you can uh use a uh a base to wipe out the proteins, leach out all of the uh color. You want to look at a procedure called clearing and staining, which is fairly similar, like I say, to a technique used for curing loot fisk, but the the problem is is that I think it's gonna taste like garbage if you do that. That's horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:03] I mean, imagine a lootfisk chili. Now, there's some Scandinavian person out there saying Lutfisk chili sounds good. I mean, like there's someone out there who's like uh thinking that, but in my mind, no. Uh, but I get what you're saying. Um flavors are just associated inherently with colors.
+
+[14:26] Any volatile, uh any volatiles, right, aromas, uh, can be separated from their colors, right? So, because you could distill it. So you could theoretically do a um, I mean, I don't know what access equipment you have, but you could theoretically do a distillation and get a lot of the aromas of a chili and then form those back into a consumme, and if you did it all in a sealed system, you might be able to kind of seal the flavor in a little bit because aromas tend to be very fugitive in it. You would make a fluid gel, like probably like a you'd make a gel an fluid gel, and then you would uh you know do a distillation, recapture into the gel-m fluid gel, suspend it. Do it, you'd have to add back acidity, which doesn't distill, you'd have to add back sugar, which doesn't distill, you'd have to add back salt, which doesn't distill, and there are probably various non-volatile uh things that are in there.
+
+[15:20] I think you're gonna have a tough time getting rid of all of the color because you could, for instance, charcoal filter some of the color, but um the problem is is that those um that will also strip a lot of the volatiles, right? So you use uh charcoal filtration, activated charcoal. By the way, not all charcoal is the same. There is you can go down like a like a many, many, many, many, many hours, days, weeks long rabbit hole in different styles of activated charcoal and how they work and pore size and et cetera, et cetera. But any one of those technologies isn't just going to strip color, although by the way, it will strip color.
+
+[15:55] Uh it will strip uh aromas and volatiles as well you could go for a uh I'm trying to think here you could like distillation would be a way to go the flavors are always going to be in inherently lighter but they would definitely be there um you know like those brown characteristics just aren't gonna I mean like you can get a very light straw color so for instance if you do a if you do a meat stock and you don't brown the meat beforehand right then you're going to get a uh a a almost clear kind of consume and then you could add your you know whatever your cumin your coriander your capsaicin all that stuff can be added with little to no color um you know mmm cumin is actually that true cumin's gonna make it go brown but the vol the the the brownness isn't important to the flavor of the of the cumin so you could almost like you could do uh you could make a cumin tincture like a very strong cumin tincture and you could probably strip out a lot of the color from that with uh charcoal and still get a fairly heavy cumin note back back slop that into your consumme to get your cumin without getting a lot of the of the color onion you can clearly get in without a lot of color right garlic you can get in without a lot of color obviously capsaicin you can get in without a lot of color uh so you're left with the meat I would do a very blonde um I would do a very blonde um stock and you'll you could probably get a good straw color, and if you add enough of it, you could probably get a heavy meat taste, but it's still never gonna have that brown, that brown, brown, brown taste. I wonder, I mean, those brown colors are, again, I don't know how much work you're really need to go through. Those brown colors are fairly um water-soluble. They're very water-soluble. Like all those Myard products are that I know I know of are extremely water soluble.
+
+[17:59] Um I don't know, but the thing is I think like I think probably the aromas and everything are gonna leach out at the same rate. Ha! How about this? What if you did a like an enflourage, like a fat was? So you did you got like like 83 million pounds of uh you know meat, and then you did like a um the thing is I don't know if that stuff fat washes.
+
+[18:21] A lot of that stuff's water soluble. I was wondering whether you could do almost like a fat wash and then enflourage the fat wash and get the and get the aroma back off into like an alcohol, dope that back in to a blonde stock to try to get your meat plus your plus your cook. But I just I mean, having had fat that's been in Oh, like enflourage, so they used to do they would take like uh things that were fragile, let's like you know, uh rose petals or whatnot, you'd embed that into fat uh in very, very thin surface area, you know, a large surface area, so like a thin layer, and then the um the aromas that were kind of lipophilic would trans would transfer over to the fat. Uh you then throw away the the petals, now you have only those kind of lipophilic uh flavors in there. Then you you can wash uh high-proof ethanol over that, that'll leach the flavors back out of the fat without leaching the fat out, and you have now, you know, a perfume of rose or or whatnot.
+
+[19:21] Um but I don't think that's gonna work here because I mean, think about it, like most of these flavors are that you're looking for here. I mean, there are fat-based flavors, but a lot of these flavors are kind of water soluble flavors this is why like if you take uh and you you even if you have let's say a a confit or a riette you know the flat the fat is flavorful that you render back off of that but it's not like you can substitute that for meat you know what I'm saying um I mean obviously flavor houses know how to do this crap but typically when they're doing this stuff they also dope back in care like literally caramel color because 999 people want it brown you know what I mean yeah exactly um I mean I think the best you're gonna be able to do unless you have access to distillation if you have access to distillation rig this problem is is relatively solved but if you don't have access to a distillation rig yeah because you have the tomato too what are we gonna do with the tomato paste I have distilled tomato well we got some tomato water yeah but that's not clear tomato water is tomato well here but you also if you want tomato water to taste more like tomato paste you have to really boil it down. Tomato like like I mean I don't know um usually when I'm do I don't know how you do your chili like I'm usually like the the like a small amount of stock and paste together. You know what I mean? Because I like a thick chili.
+
+[20:51] But um I mean tomato water still so if you're okay with the color of tomato water I would say just try to do a relatively blonde stock. You know what I'm saying? And then reduce your like reduce the hell out of your tomato water to boost your umami because you're gonna need it. And then if you want to try if your cumin is getting too brown, do you know them did you know Nastasia Lopez makes chili without cumin? Or is that Piper?
+
+[21:20] No. That was Piper? No, that was me. You so is that as someone who's gonna enter a chili cook-off, is that chili or is that a tomato beef stew? You know, I'm not gonna put myself up as a chili expert here.
+
+[21:32] I'm trying to create this abomination. I don't have any like to stand on. Well, listen, don't you leave out the cumin because then you're as like, you know, even lower quality individual than Nastasia Lopez. And by the way, that's very difficult to do. Well, my first attempt was boiling dried peppers in bean water.
+
+[21:51] So nowhere to go with a butt up. Oh, bean boiling bean water. You had me at bean water. That's like a it's like uh, I mean, I know everyone uses it. You gotta use one of the more like uh I know it's chickpeas and not beans, but like that's why the person wasn't like, have you ever used have you ever used bean water to make cocktails?
+
+[22:10] They always say aquafaba because it sounds so much better than bean water. Do you know what I've never used? Aquafaba. I know everyone's gonna get mad. Remember back like two years ago, Nastasia?
+
+[22:20] Everyone was asking us, have we worked with aquafaba? Remember that? Yeah. It was like every week we would have an aquafaba question. Yeah, that's so weird.
+
+[22:27] And then I'm so lazy that even at the time I had the time, for some reason I was resistant to the aquafaba. I'm still somewhat resistant to the aquafaba. What about you, Nastasia? Yeah, no. I didn't we open it or something.
+
+[22:40] I mean, we I've opened how many cans of chickpeas have opened in my life? A billion million? A million billion millions? This is like the one time where mainstream culture has sort of like overlapped in its interests with you, and you've decided like, ah, screw that. I don't want anything to do with it.
+
+[22:54] Like they're this is like the closest people are getting to being as nerdy about food as you are normally. And you were just like, no dice, I'm not interested. I know, isn't that crazy? What? It I look, here's an insight into me.
+
+[23:07] Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, but like the thing is is that I can be interested in almost anything for a short period of time. It's one of my actually greatest downfalls, because I'll go into a hole on the internet. Nastasia's seen me do it.
+
+[23:20] She's like, shouldn't you be, shouldn't you be making it? And by the way, should be, shouldn't I be writing my book? When you guys hear about the next food product I'm working on at the bar, not just the pinatas, but the next food product I'm working on. Oh my god, people are gonna lose their minds. True or false, Nastasia.
+
+[23:34] Right. If I ever get it done. I've done this is the inside out. What? The inside out.
+
+[23:42] Reverse fried. No, Jesus, that? That's not safe for work. No, I'm talking about the uh no, you know, we can't talk about it. What?
+
+[23:52] The one I used to talk about, reverse sear? No. No, that's not safe. Can't talk about that. By the way, I told, I told last week a story on the air here about what Nastasia's mom thought happened in You should just say it.
+
+[24:08] I someone asked me at the bar. So if you want to know, you have to approach me at the bar and ask me, I'll tell you. You ready for caller two? Caller, yes, yes. Let me know how the chili works out.
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+[24:19] Will do. Thank you very much. Michael. We now bring you our Bob's Red Mill Food Fact of the Week. Baking soda is primarily used in cooking as a leavening agent.
+
+[24:37] But also, it's basic. So what that means is that it reacts with acids and then forms gas for leavening. But beyond its technical use just as a leavening agent, if you omit baking soda in recipes that contain a lot of acid, you'll notice that as they cook, this is pancakes, especially like buttermilk or biscuits, if they contain buttermilk. Basically anything that has buttermilk. Even if it doesn't have buttermilk, if it just has milk, if it's on the acidic side, the crust is going to be very blonde because having a slight basicity to your uh to your dough or whatever you're cooking off is gonna cause it to brown a lot faster.
+
+[25:14] So adding baking soda is a leavening, right, in conjunction with acid, but not neutralizing the acid in these recipes is gonna lead to a kind of sallow looking, not as pleasant crust. So if you find that your pancakes aren't browning properly or that they don't look right, you know, add a little bit uh of baking soda. Now, if you add too much baking soda, it takes on that soapy taste that Nastasia hates. Nastasia hates the soapy taste of baking soda. Uh, but anyway, there you go, food fact.
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+[25:43] Thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob's Redmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use cooking issues 25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking issues 25, no spaces, 25's a number. Hey, caller, you're out of the air.
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+[25:59] Hey Dave, Kyle from Baltimore. Whoa, Kyle, you cut out. Kyle from Baltimore? Yeah, Kyle from Baltimore. Nice.
+
+[26:06] How's it going? Not too bad. You guys. All right. All right.
+
+[26:11] Um, my question is uh I'm getting married next August, and I kinda need to fill out a wedding registry. Um I have an immersion circulator. Wait, how old are you, first of all? Oh, 26. Nice, all right.
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+[26:26] Yeah. Uh for uh nostalgia's demographic there. Yeah, yeah. My fiance does not like me spending a lot of money on kitchen equipment. Nastasia's giving her a knew it face.
+
+[26:38] I tried convincing her um not to get the food saver um vacuum sealer and to get the vacmaster, but that didn't play. Really? But how much is I look again? Vacmaster is one of those things. If anyone out there ever wants me to say something nice about the Vacmaster, send us one for even three weeks.
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+[26:55] We'll send it back to you. I'll test it and let people know. I've never used the Vacmaster, but go ahead. How much is the Vacmaster? How much is it?
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+[27:01] It's like a $700 um oil pump chamber. Oh wait, Vacmaster makes an oil one now? Yeah, it's like $40 more than the uh piston. Oh. Well that sounds like a good deal.
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+[27:13] I wouldn't mind trying it to see what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Um, so I make her back seal everything with the food saver now just so she realizes how difficult it is. Let me tell you something.
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+[27:22] This is not a good way to start your marriage. I think Nastasia might have life advice for you. Never mind cooking it. Did you read my lips? Well, Nastasia, oh man.
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+[27:33] I don't know. I I wasn't looking. I was I was actually concentrating on what you're saying. I can't say it. It's too funny and too mean.
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+[27:38] I was like, my point is is that like while I genuinely appreciate you punishing your fiance for uh, you know, her forcing you into a substandard choice of vacuum technologies, it it uh you you're only gonna get more resentful of things over time. You know what I mean? Like Nastasia back me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh sure.
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+[28:01] All in fun, half in jest, whole in earnest, as I used to say. Uh all right, so so go ahead. So um uh like I said, I have an immersion circulator right now. Um we do a lot of low-temps cooking. Uh we have an electric range because we live in an apartment presently, and it has no heat output whatsoever.
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+[28:22] So searing is an issue. When you say electric, you mean the old style resistance one with the coil? Oh, even worse, yeah, with a glass top over the Oh Garbage! Garbage. Yeah.
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+[28:32] Don't you wish you could take whoever invented that thing out behind the woodshed and just beat them senseless? Uh yeah, it's it's awful. It's nice to clean, and that's where the good things to say end. You know why it's nice to clean too? You never use it.
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+[28:46] Boom! Cause it sucks so hard. Like it's easy to keep something clean that's impossible to use. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
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+[28:54] I mean, presently my my uh ANOVA container goes on top of it, and then uh I usually sear in the boiler. All right. So it it gets used. How how many uh so the broiler on the uh electric I mean electric ovens can be good for baking and the broiler is decent? Uh no.
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+[29:13] It's usable. All right. And uh is do you have do you have adequate ventilation in your kitchen? No. No.
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+[29:20] We we uh put a fan in the door and uh the dog's my fiance get smoked out every time. Hmm. Let me ask you a separate question. How long do you plan on living in this place? Two more months.
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+[29:30] Okay, so I've I've already looked for a a place with a nice gas stove and good ventilation, and I I think we're settling on a place. So the other the other, by the way, the other choice is in I don't know how uh power in apartments in Baltimore is in New York, old apartment buildings power is very sparse. So uh but if you're in a place with electric, for instance, I mean I don't know, it depends on how long you're gonna be there. Electric stove places typically have 220 in them. So you could throw, if you know, if you had the money, like let's say you were gonna let's say you were gonna take a place that was 400 or 300 cheaper a month, right?
+
+[30:04] Well, within four or five months, you could have bought yourself a really nice induction uh range, and induction is nice, especially you know, uh when it's like hot in the summertime, having like an induction range is nice. It does require, but you're getting married, so it does require having pants that are induction friendly. But I even during the summertime, a lot of times, I mean, I have a range that you know, I I could light fire to the moon with my range, and um, you know, because it puts out so much heat, but still in the summertime, I'll use my induction from time to time. I have like a super high quality, you know, one of the poly science uh brevel induction things, but I also have cheaper ones, and you know, I'll use a couple from time to time. So, I mean, I'm a big fan of induction in new build outs.
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+[30:53] But anyway, so go ahead, register. Yeah. So that's actually um part of the question because I was looking at like the sort of fifty dollar Chinese induction burners, as well as the um the control freak that is by Breble. Right. Um kind of as a replacement for you know, my substantial uh electric clip top there.
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+[31:13] Um I was wondering, I guess if the I mean the price difference is dramatic between the two there, and I was wondering if the like sort of fifty dollar ones were any good or if I should look to go with the high end. So I have uh at the bar, we just received one called uh Heston. I haven't played a lot with it yet. I don't know the price point on that one. Uh, but it seemed it's another one of those controllable ones, but it talks to the pot.
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+[31:41] And I haven't used the pot that it talks to. I've just been using it as a as a hob. Uh I'll use the British term there, hob, which doesn't make any sense to me. Um I have the control freak is is is great. I love it.
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+[31:55] Everyone who has one that I know of loves it. I've never heard of one uh crapping out. I need to clean mine a little bit, the sensor. It's a little bit off now when I'm running it off of the um off of the the you know, the push button sensor on the top. The um I mean the really nice thing about it is you can do so like when I'm the on the on the expensive one on the control freak, I, you know, when I'm reheating, I'm never worried about scorching.
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+[32:26] You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like I'll take uh I'll I could take anything, and as long as I have enough time, I can throw it in there and I can have it reheat at, you know, at a temperature that's gonna heat it through fast enough but never scorch. So you're never gonna how many times in your life have you had like a layer of burnt like the collar before? Let's say you're doing chili, how many times have you had some scorched chili on the bottom? A lot.
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+[32:48] You know, I've told this story many times on the air that in my stepfather's family, the worst offense that you could commit is not murder, it's not adultery, it is burning the uh it's burning the gravy as they call it, which is spaghetti sauce in in in uh, you know, in in Boston parlance. So it's like, you know, if you burn if you if you cheat on your spouse, that's like a ten-year problem, you know, of getting getting past it. If you if you burn the gravy, well, I mean, we're still talking about it like 30, 40 years later in the family. You know what I mean? And so uh if you've ever burned anything like that, uh that won't happen on the uh on the control freak ever, which is kind of a miracle when you think about it.
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+[33:28] You know what I mean? Or just for like hot holding stuff and not having to worry about it. Uh pressure cooking, I use it for um, you know, it's even you know pretty decent at the higher temperatures uh on frying. So I love it. I've also used the cheap ones, and you know, they are just as powerful as the control freak because there's a maximum amount of energy you can suck out of the wall.
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+[33:51] Some of the cheaper ones, the problem with the cheaper induction burners, and it's not like the control freak is dead silent, but though if you've never used a lot of induction burners before, um the way induction burners work is is they they create an like an alternating uh an alternating field that then causes a current flow inside of your of your pan. Now that there's there's two there's two things that are happening, right? You can theoretically, if you have enough power with an induction unit, you could heat up something that's non-magnetic like aluminum. You're doing something with called I square R losses, the actual resistance of the pan. Yeah.
+
+[34:25] Typically, that's not how you're heating things, induction on a stove. You're using what's called the hysteresis loss of um of putting the current through something that is ferromagnetic, which is why typically you're only heating things that um you know have uh steel or something in them that is, you know, that works well with induction, which is why you need induction friendly pans. Commercially, industrially, you can melt any any conductive thing, including aluminum with uh with induction furnaces, but it's not the same kind of style. So, in order to get the right uh frequency to make the pan heat up actively, they you can hear it hunt. So it's like you hear this.
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+[35:05] I hate that sound. Yeah, it also hurt my throat. You hear that with induction. So yeah, I understand the induction uh pretty well. Yeah.
+
+[35:14] So, but I mean hopefully what I said is accurate then. Uh but um but you know what I'm saying. I don't I I I think that the cheaper ones do more of a of a of a hunt, and so they sound worse. I don't know whether it's just that they that the electronics are worse in them, and so that they, you know, they they have more kind of overtones that you can hear. Uh I hate a squealing induction unit.
+
+[35:43] Hate it. You know what I mean? And sometimes the uh sometimes the um the the control freak will squeal, but not nearly as much as the I've never used a $30 IKEA one. But for $30, I mean, if you use it, what the hell? You know what I mean?
+
+[36:01] I have uh a relatively recent $120 one, uh, a Burton, I think, that seems to work pretty well. I've had bad luck with the circa six years ago $80 ones. So it used to be for catering events, like, you know, right remember when we got the lab nostasi, we got some of those cheap catering ones, and the cheap catering ones um were woefully uh the circuitry in them was like was like uh the heat sinks were no good. And so like halfway through a cook, they'd be like, I'm not gonna cook anymore, and they would just shut off. And then you're like, but I wasn't done cooking, and they're like, oh yes, you are, and they just wouldn't come back on again.
+
+[36:43] But I've not had that happen with any of the more modern ones because the the sad fact is is that once one factory in, you know, wherever they're made, I'm gonna say Shenzhen because a lot of that stuff's made there. Once one factory figures out the electronics since they don't break anymore, then everybody knows how to do it you know what I mean um so there's that so I've never had any ex much experience with the mid-range ones like the two three hundred dollar range but I've used the 150 dollar ones and they're fine for what they are and I've used the $1500 ones and they're great for what they are that's not very helpful as well yeah what else you registering for uh I think that kind of covers my question about the induction burner yeah what else you registered for you gonna register for a blender or do you already own it what's that are you are you registering for a blender or do you already own it? Oh no I've got like a $400 Vitamix on there. It sounds like your fiance is fairly forgiving if you already have the the Vitamix. You know what I'm saying?
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+[37:40] No no no it's on my registry. Oh yeah I mean um I'm in culinary school right now so she kind of has to you know let me do a little bit. Yeah yeah I'm familiar with that Nastasi's like uh I'm familiar with that problem hey hey honey it's my job I have to do it I don't know well it's even worse I'm I'm in culinary school just for fun kind of I'm a software engineer oh yeah so this is but she she reaps all the benefits she gets all of the baked goods all the bread all the you know the quality dishes who cleans I do who cleans the kitchen afterwards oh I do I clean as I go oh so I don't know Nastasia Nastasia doesn't believe you she has an idea no no no I you are you are my perfect beta male wow wow the Stasia has a new theory of the beta male. What why is why is he a beta male? Because he cleans the kitchen after he cooks?
+
+[38:39] He cleans he works neat, he's in culinary school. Nastasia is just an unforgiving person. Yeah. She's rough. I mean, I'm a very clean individual regardless, so man.
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+[38:52] Nastasia is so rough. Alright. But um, I guess the follow-up with the burner was uh Kenji always suggests getting just like a skillet, a saucepan, and not buying the whole set. But should I put a whole set of like uh all clad pans on there? Or let me put it this way.
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+[39:09] Uh have you ever been like, holy crap, I need another pot because I'm cooking two sauces at once? That's fair. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, if you're cooking for one and you're doing like dump meals or like you know, Rachel Ray 30 second, you know, uh dinner parties, whatever the hell they're called, great. But you know, if you've ever been like, I wish I had more burners because six isn't enough for what I'm doing, then guess what?
+
+[39:37] You need at least a vessel for every burner. Okay. You know what I mean? So, like, yeah, you know, how many times have you been like, I'm gonna sweat down the onions in this one stock pot, then I because I'm gonna make something there. I have another one boiling because I'm cooking uh I'm parboiling veg, or I'm you know, I'm cooking potatoes off or something else.
+
+[39:57] I have another one that I'm doing uh a saute in for a third thing, and I'm also busting out the apps at the same time this stuff is going. Well, do you have enough for that? Uh also there's oh hey, guess what? Sauce pots come in different sizes. Sometimes I'm making a small quantity of sauce and putting it into a big one's gonna cause too much freaking evaporation, and I'm a moron if I don't have both sizes.
+
+[40:22] Or, whoa, I'm doing like I'm doing two containers of Brussels sprouts. So am I gonna take my big stock pot out to boil water for my two lousy containers of Brussels sprouts? Am I gonna crowd it into my tiny saucepan? Or am I gonna suck it up and do my mid-sized saucepan, put enough exactly enough water in for the two things of Brussels sprouts, bang it out and be done with it. So I mean, like for me, if you're gonna be a serious individual, sure, start with wherever you want.
+
+[40:46] You need a decent mid-size fry pan. You need a big ass one for when you're doing something like a like a larger braise on stove pot and you want to brown a lot of stuff at once and have it going, or for God, you know, if God forbid you want to do something like a paill or some crap in it. But I use that stuff all the time. Like let's say let's say you're doing cheap food, like let's say you're just busting out an old school like beans and escarol, right? Are you gonna do a beans and escarole thing in a stock pot?
+
+[41:09] No, that's dumb. You would never do it in a stock pot. Can you do it in a small fry pan? No. Sucker's not big enough to put the escarole in before it wilts.
+
+[41:16] What are you gonna pre-wilt it all in a freaking stock pot and then put it back in the? No. You want like a big enough uh pan to put it in and then cover it, let it wilt down, and sure it's gonna melt down, right? You need at least two saucepans, right? You need a decent tall, heavy bottom stock pot that can brown things, right?
+
+[41:35] And then you need a cheap stock pot just for boiling water, like bare minimum. Bare minimum. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[41:44] Um before I give Nastasia an aneurysm here, what's kind of your uh can't live without kitchen gadget that you would put on there? Dishwasher. Spinzole. That comes with the apartment. Oh, dishwasher comes with the apartment.
+
+[41:59] I mean, what do I use all the time? I'm I guess you're asking for something I use that is not standard. Uh see, I use my food processor all the time. I'm just looking at my kitchen. I use my blender all the time.
+
+[42:13] Yeah, I have a uh Kitchen art uh cuisine art rather uh like hundred and twenty dollar food processor. Works. I wouldn't I that's what I use. Uh so I have the Queens Art, I'm just looking at my kitchen. I have the Cuisinart, I have the Vitaprep.
+
+[42:26] Uh I've loaned out my Nix Tomatic to the museum and my wet grinder. I like them, not essentials, right? Uh I have uh hard to uh to justify. Right. I have two I have two varieties of scales for weighing two different sizes of thing.
+
+[42:39] A decent set of um airtight uh vessels for holding things like flour and rice. Gotta go airtight so that bugs don't get into them. Um a bunch of pick three to four sizes of stacking, stacking, stacking stainless steel bowls and do not stack the same size uh different sizes on top of each other ever. Uh a whole I use more quart containers. I have quart containers and pint containers in huge stacks and I use them constantly as though I was in a regular kitchen at home.
+
+[43:14] Uh commercial size of plastic like Cambros? The the little quart containers, like delis, like what you would get soup in at a Chinese restaurant. Uh commercial size of plastic wrap. Uh and then yeah, knives, moco jete and an espresso maker. Oh espresso is the only one I guess uh I don't really have.
+
+[43:36] Do you like espresso? I love it. Um I showed my fiance the price of a machine. Even though she loves it, she was not about that. Are you handy?
+
+[43:47] Yeah, yeah. Didn't it? I mean, it used to be you could buy an old commercial machine at auction or on eBay, and let me tell you something about espresso machines. Is there's uh uh I just fixed my espresso machine. Have I talked about this, Nastasia?
+
+[44:03] No. Nastasia hates me to talk about it. But like I had one, I had one I bought for it's uh like a several thousand dollar machine. I bought it for two or three hundred dollars on eBay. It was broken.
+
+[44:16] I disassembled it, reassembled it. It just broke um after 15 years of daily use, it broke a couple of weeks ago, and you know, again, I took it apart and the heating element had finally gone bad on me. So I replaced the heating element for $135. So hopefully I'm gonna be good for another, you know, 15 years on it. Um new espresso machines, like I love them.
+
+[44:39] Like I had the breva one, although it's partially broken now, I need to get it fixed. New machines are like new cars. You keep when you open them up, they're they've been designed on a computer, everything's routed very tightly, it's hard to get to everything. They're a real pain in the butt to work on. The old school espresso machines are a lot like old cars, right?
+
+[44:58] The panels bolt on in a way that they can be unbolted and rebolted back on. You can see all the parts. It's like I remember once uh I was given a uh 1967 uh Plymouth Valiant, and I remember opening the hood of it and being like, oh my god, air in gas in, you know, exhaust out and power. I was like, I can understand everything on this car, and that's pretty much the way old school commercial espresso machines work. You can fix anything on them.
+
+[45:25] Uh now, if a couple of things are broken, you know, the cost can go up. So if you know your heating element's broken, you're out, you know, a hundred bucks or so, and if your solenoids start breaking on you, but you can pretty much fix them. Um, and you can get a lot of the parts. So if you like tinkering and you don't mind dealing with someone who hasn't taken care of it, meaning you have to like completely disassemble, descale, and boil all your parts. You can totally fix an old commercial espresso machine.
+
+[45:52] And um, the one groups are are 120 typically. They're 20 20 amp dedicated 120s, so they can fit into normal kitchens. You do need to plumb it, which is uh another thing you need to kind of be careful about. So typically you keep them close to the sink because they need to be plumbed, and you're gonna keep your pump underneath the sink right by your water filter, and then you have to drill a hole in your counter or route it in some way behind it so that you have uh you know a quarter inch uh pressure hose coming up to the machine, but it's not that big a deal. Well, it might be an issue right now with the apartment, but maybe I guess long term with the house.
+
+[46:28] Yeah, two months, two months. You're only there two months. Oh yeah, moving to another apartment though. Yeah, all right. Well, okay.
+
+[46:34] You do what you can. But all right, uh, I think that covers everything. Uh thanks. All right, good luck with uh good luck with the marriage. Yeah, I'll let you know how it goes.
+
+[46:42] All right, cool. Uh so we're gonna wait. Are we done? We're done or we're gonna take a break. We're done.
+
+[46:46] Don't we have to take a break? We'll be the done-ness. Yeah, Nastasia, you're so mean for no reason. So we help somebody with his wedding registry. All right, all right, all right.
+
+[46:55] So uh I still haven't gotten to uh Austin's uh still haven't gotten to Austin's question on the uh Pearl Diver. We'll do that next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[47:23] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
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+[47:49] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hearst Ranch is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. Learn more about Herstranch at Hearstranch.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:27] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Brooklyn. Right. Right. Well, there are people staring at us like, why are you ruining my salad?
+
+[1:04] See that? What the hell salad are they eating says? Not one that we're gonna have. Yeah, no, no. Anyways, we have as usual with us Nastasi the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:12] How are you doing? Good. Yeah. We got uh Matt in the booth. Hello.
+
+[1:15] Yeah. You know, I th I hope that people start addressing their questions to Dave the Hammer and Matt in the booth. I love Dave, but it is useful to have two different names, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why he had to go.
+
+[1:30] Uh so Nastasia, you got anything uh good this week? No. No? No, nothing. I was thinking about this the other day.
+
+[1:37] Like for those of you that work in restaurants or uh, you know, have a restaurant or bar or whatever. Isn't it nice when you can't be there a hundred percent of the time? The only person who is in their restaurant a hundred percent of the time was um Andre Sultner and his wife. She ran the FOH and he ran the back of the house. And when they weren't there, the restaurant closed, right?
+
+[2:00] Uh but I think that they had like one day a week when they weren't opened, the test, which was, you know, as a good idea. Yeah, yeah. Good idea. Well, I mean, it's like it's like a, you know, it's a very like in the past philosophy that you're gonna make your living by having a restaurant. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:20] And that, you know, you are entitled to a day off a week, and you know, you know, that there'd be some constancy with your crew. You know what I mean? It would be more like your house and less like a place of work, right? Anyway, where I was going with this is Anastasia's hilarious. Because people, like she's there a lot at the Pasta Flyer.
+
+[2:43] If you want to go pester her, I encourage you to do so, even though she does not encourage you to do that. I used to be there all the time. Yeah, well, well, you're still there in the days most of the time, right? Yeah. Yeah, so if you go by, she's always P.S.
+
+[2:53] She's always hiding in the back. First of all, she does this to me, so I feel like I can do this to her. She's hiding in the back. So you walk up to anyone up instead of the room. Anyone would be like, oh, let me go get her.
+
+[3:02] Instead of like who are you? Yeah, who are you? No, right away they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's in the back. Just go back there by yourself.
+
+[3:10] Don't even knock. Yeah. Anyway, great. But my thing about it is is that there's like a small, and when I say small, like, could fit in my normal-sized pocket of people that Nastasia actually wants to see. True.
+
+[3:22] And what's hilarious is that when they show up at her restaurant when she's not there, ain't nobody tell her that they showed up. Always the good ones are there when I'm not there. Oh, it's it's it's classic. Or I could have gone to CVS and my employees are like, yeah, she's not here. Instead of being like, she stepped out.
+
+[3:41] Wait, I know she cares about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. Uh like, you know, though that's the one thing I have to say that Mama Fuku was really good at.
+
+[3:48] Like Mama Fuku, like, as soon as someone showed up in the door, like that, you know, was like a friend of the house or something like this, it went on full blast. Like high alert, like text messages went off, everything. You know what I mean? Uh so who showed up for you and you rent their own. No, I'm just thinking about it.
+
+[4:05] Like, like I'm getting the text, although it happens to me all the time. Here's here's the one that pisses me off more. Here's something you might not know, people. Let's say you're friends with uh someone involved in the restaurant business, right? And you show up at their restaurant or bar or whatever, right?
+
+[4:20] You show up at their place of work, and you don't let them know. They're a friend of yours, like a legit friend, not like there's plenty of people where it's like, you know, like we say hello to each other when we're at the you know, the industry party, so I have a friend who has a friend who has their number, so I'll text them and maybe I could get a good table even though I didn't bother to get a reservation. Right? There's that level, right? And then there's people that are actually your friends.
+
+[4:43] And if you don't tell them that you are showing up at your place, they will get mad at you. You are not troubling them to tell them that you are going to their place. You are troubling them if they find out you weren't there and they're nervous that your experience wasn't what they wanted it to be. Now, this may sound contradictory because as everybody knows, when you show up by the way, Nastasia, it's a billion freaking degrees in this box, or is it just because I was biking here? Uh, there was they show up at your restaurant and you want every guest's experience to be great, right?
+
+[5:17] Like, so in theory, like there's, you know, there's no such thing. If you're doing your job right, there's no real such thing as a VIP. Everybody's a VIP. Everybody is special. Right, Sas?
+
+[5:28] Except here at Robert is. Well, no, everybody's a. Oh, remember that? Yeah. Oh, we can talk about that later.
+
+[5:29] Uh no, it was. We got told that the other table had something different from us because they were VIPs, which is a huge no-no. That server no longer works here. But I was like, uh not because of me. I didn't, you know, Nastasia and I didn't have anything to do with it, but.
+
+[5:50] We're like, ooh, what's that? We're like, uh, that's where VIPs. They're VIPs. Shots fire. Yeah.
+
+[5:57] Not like, oh, we ran out of that, or oh, they got the last one, I'm so sorry, or oh, I will get you that because we actually have eight boatloads of that crap back in the kitchen. No, they're VIPs. And I was like, I was like, we're all VIPs? You know what I mean? Like you something to strive for.
+
+[6:14] Like, you know, maybe someday you too will be a VIP at Robert's. I know, it's very like old school French aristocracy or like old British thing. It's like, uppercrest only. You know what I mean? It's like, I thought the whole point of the United States, like, false as this promise may be, I thought we were a cat's supposed to be a cast-free system up in this piece.
+
+[6:32] You know what I mean? But it's like, man. Uh so anywho, uh, so it's true that we want everyone to feel special and we want to make every guess. But when an actual friend of yours shows up, you just want to make sure that nothing bad happened because you have to live with that. Like, if some person you don't know has a bad experience, you don't ever want that to happen, and you stay up awake at night, like thinking about it.
+
+[6:54] But it's like once they're gone, they're out the door, and maybe they'll, you know, yelp you, maybe they'll say something negative about you. But in general, you don't have to deal with them ever again, most likely. So it's not the same as when your friend shows up, right, Stas? Or like a family member. So please do them the courtesy of telling them that you were there.
+
+[7:12] You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So a friend of mine, Guido, he shows up and he goes, and I catch him as he's leaving, because I'm in the office doing work. I'm at the damned restaurant, right? Bar, and like I like, I'm doing some work on the computer.
+
+[7:25] I show up as he's leaving, I'm like, you know, he's like, he's an architect. He's like, well, you know, I don't expect that I need to be, you know, giving you a tour of my buildings when you know you show up at a building I've designed. I'm like, brother, when I show up at your building, I want to go in the special, like awesome people-only elevator. I want to get taken right to the top and I want a freaking tour. I want the special treatment.
+
+[7:46] So I expect you to text me the next time you show up at the restaurant anyway. I don't know. What do you think, Stas? Yeah. I mean, we're there anyway.
+
+[7:52] That's what people don't realize. Yeah. Chances are probably there. Look, here's the other thing, right? So if you're like a Anastasia-style person or a me style person, like you don't have like actual work to do in the sense that like I'm like, there's a problem if I'm clearing the tables.
+
+[8:11] It means someone didn't show up to work. There's a problem if I'm taking your order. It means someone hasn't shown up. Or if, God forbid, I'm pouring your drinks. Like, unless it's like a special thing, right?
+
+[8:24] So if I'm there and if you see me, it's either because I'm wandering around going, hello, hello, hello, or I'm like working on research for something, or I'm checking the floor to make sure everything's going smoothly. But a lot of times I'm like behind a curtain doing something intensely boring on a computer, right, Anastasia? So yeah, you know, we're there anyway. Just let us know. And then if we're not there, then if our crew is operating properly, they will text us and be like, yo, this person showed up who says they know you.
+
+[8:54] Do they know you? Because how many people show up and say they know you, but they don't really know you. Do not call out somebody's name at a restaurant unless they will instantly recognize your name and be happy that they have heard it. You know what I mean? Anyways.
+
+[9:08] You know, that's the it's the same thing where restaurant, it's a little bit different, but at a at a bar, people think that they're doing me a favor by finishing a drink that they don't like or by sitting there with a drink that they don't like or an item they don't like. We would rather throw away that money, give you something you like so that you come back again. I don't know. Oh, we have a new thing on the menu, Nastasia. What is it?
+
+[9:29] Vodka cranberry. Oh, yeah, no, I know. Yeah. So we put it on specifically, you know, for the kind of vodka cranberry crowd. But the problem is we don't have enough of the vodka cranberry crowd.
+
+[9:39] And then last night, at like literally like 20 minutes before closing, 20, 25 minutes before closing, an 8-top showed up. And they were, let's just put it this way, the people we designed this drink for. And they ordered in 20 minutes $400 worth of vodka cranberries. Boom. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom!
+
+[9:57] And the thing I like about it is that I actually, we actually drink this as shift drink, because we actually like it a lot. But it's like, because we don't, we're not using cranberry juice, we're doing a vodka cranberry houstino and then carbonating the vodka cranberry houstino. So it's it's actually quite delicious. So it's like uh video that. Instagram that.
+
+[10:15] Uh yeah, you know, I'm terrible at that stuff. Although I did put it on Instagram yesterday. I went to the Goodwill yesterday, because I shop at the Goodwill. In fact, every stitch of clothing I'm wearing right now is from Goodwill because when you have to wear all black every day, who can afford? I guess I could go to Uniquel and just be like, everything black in my size, I'll take it home.
+
+[10:32] But like who the hell, you know, A, I don't have the time to go to Unique Lo. And the last time I was in a Unique Lo store, I almost had like a seizure from all the bright colors and everything like this. So I was like, okay. Uh I was like, forget it. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:44] I'll just go to the goodwill, and anytime they have something black in my size, I'll buy it. So I was doing that. I was buying like every black t-shirt in my size there. And then uh on the way out, bacon costume. One size fits most.
+
+[10:58] So on the Instagram, I have uh I have uh, you know, one of our crew, Damon Harjoe Rogo wearing a bacon outfit. And then another one of our crew, Will Pasternak, took a video of Damon after shift sitting behind another one of our bartenders, Kendra, just eating, eating meat in a bacon costume as though nothing was going on, and she's not noticing anything. She's like firmly embedded in figuring out the numbers at the end of the night. Another thing I'll say. Wait, you have not one, but two callers for this week's uh episode of Fashion Issues.
+
+[11:27] Alright, cool. Uh uh Matt, remind me after this is done uh that I have to talk about uh getting out of bars when they close. Alright, caller, you're on the air. Caller. Matt, you're a liar.
+
+[11:39] Caller, you are on the air. Hello. Hello. Hello. All right.
+
+[11:46] Oh, geez, Louise. All right. While we're waiting, I'll just start talking, and then they're gonna just talk over me. Whenever you guys show up on the phone, just start talking, and I'll stop talking. That's how this is gonna work.
+
+[11:56] When a bar closes or a restaurant closes, it is a good idea to leave. Right, Nastasia? Yeah. Because you might not know this, but like the people that are there have a whole nother hour of work to do. And it's considered gauche usually, unless you're a close friend, unless they feel comfortable breaking down the whole bar or restaurant while you're sitting there talking to them, like rolling up all the mats, washing everything down, getting everything clean.
+
+[12:24] If they don't feel comfortable doing that in front of you, you are literally making them wait there longer and longer and longer before they can clean up, get out, have their own after dinner drink or notch and go to bed, right, Stas? Anyway, little known fact. Matt, you got this call? Are they on the air or what? No, they're not.
+
+[12:44] Oh, hey, call, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Keegan from the. Oh, we got both of them. Wait, hold on. Keegan, you first.
+
+[12:50] What's up, Keegan? I took one of the things. Hey, um, so I manage a wine store, and every month or so I'll end up with a lot of sample bottles of wine. Right. That I can't consume in like a reasonable time.
+
+[13:05] And and what you're telling me is they're not high enough quality to give to your you're they're of unknown quality, so you can't just bring them to parties and give them to your friends? Yeah. Uh I will end up with like maybe a case of open bottles, and I just can't find something to give away or something. Nostalgie's like, go ahead, go ahead. Trying to find something to uh like culinary-wise to cook cook with them or something.
+
+[13:31] Um make a vinegar or something, maybe. Oh, yeah, you can make a vinegar. We gotta get uh Michael Harlan Sir Kell on sometime and talk about vinegar. I don't know if he still makes vinegar. Uh but he used to make vinegar all the time.
+
+[13:43] But let me ask you a question. Who on earth consumes more vinegar than wine? Like if you can't if you can't drink the wine, what makes you think you're gonna be able to use all the vinegar? Okay, well, actually my question was um so I used to work at a restaurant that used to make this like uh uh red wine sauce that used like a ton of red like liters and liters of red wine and cooked it down like like way, way down. I was wondering if there was something like that maybe I could do at home or um something like that.
+
+[14:13] Yeah, I was gonna say, uh, do you like beef? I hope, because like, you know, whenever I'm cooking anything with beef in it, you know, red wine by the by the boatload in there, right, Sas? Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, and you know, in general, like you're cooking off most of the variety. By the way, uh, there's a actually, I know Nastasia hates babies, but there's a pretty cute kid like staring in our window who's so young that they can't even keep their head up.
+
+[14:36] You know that age where they can't even keep their head in the air? Where it's like they're constantly falling asleep. Like, yeah. Like newborn basically. Yeah, ish, I don't know, like what, like two months?
+
+[14:46] I don't know. It's one of those things where it's like it's like shaking a little bit like a like a like a like a 1980s animation or something. It's like shaking a little bit and its head's bobbing about. But it, you know, I'm sure there's nothing going through that head, but you know, but it looks like the baby's thinking. I think it's a boy, I don't know, girl maybe, I don't know.
+
+[15:05] It's in it. I appreciate the neutral color. It's in it's in prison colored clothing. In a prison colored ones. Are we talking like stripes or orange?
+
+[15:14] Uh no, there's like like one color drab, like more like, you know, like uh, you know, the kind of like grayish prison outfit with no stripes? Yeah. Yeah. Baby's wearing that. So I can't tell like what sex of correctional facility it came from, but anyway.
+
+[15:31] Uh so back to the wine. Uh the Yeah, I mean, you could you could uh one thing I'll say is I mean, have you ever used flawed wine in cooking? It's wretched. The flaws stay. So like it's incorrect to say that you can use overtly flawed wine in cooking.
+
+[15:51] It is also incorrect to say you must have something that's terrific to cook with, because that's also false. You know what I mean? Yeah, I guess I'm looking for something like that I can like maybe make and then keep for a while. Yeah. So, you know, you could you can make uh you can make like an awesome like uh red wine beef sauce and then just reduce the hell out of it and then freeze that sucker down and it's gonna last, you know, forever fundamentally.
+
+[16:18] So would I kind of start with like stock and just add in wine and reduce it? Um I would you take a stock, then you uh sweat your you sweat your veg and whatever else in, then add the wine as the first liquid, then reduce that down to blast off uh the alcohol and to get the reduction going, then add the base liquid, like whatever stock you're gonna use, get to the flavor you desire, add thickener of choice, if any. You might choose not to thicken it. You might choose to leave it as a liquid. Now, if you're using a good quality stock, of course, it's gonna have a lot of body anyway because of the gelatin.
+
+[16:59] Um so it's it might be thick enough without any any thickener. Then actually a real baller move, if you do that and you and you really, you know, you have a very uh gelatinous stock, is then you can set it, it sets real hard, and then you can freeze it in uh you can cut it and freeze it in chunks. The old school technique that uh what's her name used to do, um, I think it was Julia Childs used to do where she would freeze or somebody used to freeze stock in ice cube trays. Uh the problem with that is is that um I don't find that an ice cube size is a useful size of stock to own. It's like it's not a useful thing for me.
+
+[17:34] Um but you know, you can freeze it in slightly uh bigger chunks. I wouldn't freeze it in huge chunks because then they take forever to thaw. Another note is that if you thaw, uh they don't thaw nicely, they thaw effed up. So you have to reheat them to kind of re-functionalize the gelatin because the gelatin structure of it will break and it won't kind of simply warm into a nice or you know, thaw into a thing again. It'll thaw into like a gelatin raft and a clear liquid.
+
+[18:03] So you heat it and just you know, bring it back together and it should come back together. But that should be great and and should last. Where I didn't hear where you said you were from. Where are you from? Oh, I'm from Little Rock, Arkansas.
+
+[18:13] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Little Rock. So I mean, again, though, I would also just throw a, hey, I have a lot of wine party. Like I would show up to that. If someone say, yo, Dave, I have like eight boatloads of wine from the wine store and it's a crapshoot, some of that stuff's good and some of that stuff's bad.
+
+[18:29] I'd be like, I'd okay. Wouldn't you show up to that, Nastasia? My friends would show up to that. Oh my well, your friends. Your friends would your friends would bring yellowtail to that and then like you know, drink all your good stuff.
+
+[18:39] Her friends know what the good stuff is, and so they would drink the good stuff and bring bad stuff to replace it because that's the level of friend that Nastasia has. True or false? True. Yeah. That's what I've heard.
+
+[18:51] No, and uh, yeah, I definitely try to do that. But uh, you know, I I was looking for something else, I guess. So yeah, I'll I'll try that. Um would you do that like um the thing where you recommend freezing in like uh Ziploc bags so it's like flat and thaws fast? 100% like too hard to get out.
+
+[19:06] No, 100%. Well, because you can just rip it off. That's the thing, a ziploc, you just rip it the hell off. Like the the thing about I'm a huge believer in flat ceiling. The issue with Ziplocks is um if you look at a ziploc, if you if you if you freeze it and they get punctured, it's a pain when they thaw.
+
+[19:23] But if you use enough gelatin, it's not going to be that much of a pain in the butt. And I wouldn't, you know, flat flat freezing is the way to do to do everything because uh remember both heating and defrosting, like your ability to get heat into the middle of the thing goes as the square of its thickness. So something that is twice as thick will take four times the amount of time to thaw. Um and thawing is actually even more difficult than uh freezing because well not more difficult, it takes probably it takes longer to freeze, but like if you think about it, um ice is a better conductor of heat than uh water is in terms of the time it takes the temperature to get, but but on the other hand, ice doesn't have as uh much uh thermal mass, so it can't deliver as much. I don't know.
+
+[20:10] I'd have to do some math. I have to not some math, I it's easier just to do the experiments. What I'm saying is it takes a long time to thick uh uh thaw, and the thicker it is that every time you double the thickness, you multiply the thaw time by four. Wow. Okay.
+
+[20:25] Yeah, cool. Well, uh yeah, that that's I think that answers my question. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. Uh good luck.
+
+[20:30] Let us know what happens. Uh Matt, we got we still got the other caller? Uh nope, they bailed. Man. It's because the first caller took too long.
+
+[20:37] Oh man, Nastasia's so mean. So mean, Nastasia. Uh maybe they'll call back up. I think they're on like a personal call with you. No, but wine.
+
+[20:45] I know, but I wouldn't do that. Well, were we talking about before though? We were done with it? Also, I have a break from the I mean I have a question from the chat. Oh, wait, here comes our caller.
+
+[20:54] Uh caller. Caller, you're on the air. You were on. Hello. Hey, how you doing?
+
+[21:00] Yeah, good, thanks, man. This is um Johnny Funny from the uh London. Nice. How's London doing these days? Say again.
+
+[21:09] How's London doing these days? Um currently bright and sunny. I mean, it's about eighteen degrees Celsius. Um but yeah, it's definitely get a bit more autumn autumnal. Nice mistakes.
+
+[21:21] Alright, so what you what do you got? What do you got? What do you got for me? Um I've got a coffee question. Uh so I have been following, well, uh there's a chap over here called um James Hoffman who has done a few ish um videos with Chef Step, so you might know him.
+
+[21:37] Right. Um but uh he is currently reviewing a bunch of clear coffee products, and I was thinking um how viable is it to spinzel um coffee and what kind of results you would get, bearing in mind that filter coffee is only ever two percent uh of the beverage would have coffee solids in it. With espresso, you're going up to like 11%. But I was thinking actually there can't be that much in in there to get rid of that would maintain colour or anything like that. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts.
+
+[22:10] Okay, this is a good question. So you're typic you're saying spinning what style of coffee? Like spinning like an espresso or uh or a drip? Well, I mean, this is it. Like I as in filter you both, like as in espresso has more dissolved solids in it, but then um filter coffee has less, but obviously you would brew filter in a much bigger vat, like you'd be uh you brew it at like maybe a litre or so.
+
+[22:37] I mean, you can go up to six litres, but espresso you you're looking at 40 mil. So you'd have to make a lot of espresso. Right. Well, so if you look at um and when you say clear, I'm assuming you mean seeth like not without colour. I'm assuming you mean limpids.
+
+[22:55] Yeah, you I mean if you can do trans transparent or or translucent, that would be amazing. But yeah, it's let's be honest, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, so um okay, so a little bit on terminology. When you're measuring something with a refractometer, let's say, like the Rao technique, and you're doing um and you're looking at total dissolved solids, the keyword there is dissolved, right? And if the if the solids are dissolved, then you cannot remove them via centrifugation because they are dissolved.
+
+[23:31] It's possible to stratify them, like to concentrate them, but you're not gonna separate them out. Like and you can do that with like a uh like a very heavy sugar stick syrup in a very high gravitational field, like in a strong centrifuge. You can maintain a gradient, a concentration gradient, but you're not gonna spin something out of solution if it's actually dissolved. So if you look at uh so if you let's take aside uh hot brewed beverages and espresso, let's look at cold brew. Cold brew is in fact clear because it contains at least the cold brew that I make, or that even though I don't really like it, or the cold brew that other people make, most of that, or some of it at least, if you look at it, if you pour a thin amount in the on the bottom of a beaker, you can read newsprint through it.
+
+[24:20] It's clear. You know what I mean? It's it's dark depending on how much extraction you have, but it is crystal clear. Um the problem with uh you know, the problem with espresso, let's say, is that it doesn't just contain um dissolved solids, it contains a lot of suspended solids and emulsified oils, right? Yeah.
+
+[24:45] Now, it might be possible to spin out uh suspended solid suspended solids and emulsified oils. But like spinzole, I don't think is gonna be powerful enough to spin out a colloid, right? And so I think a lot of the particles in coffee are of colloidal size, meaning they Yeah, they are. Yeah, yeah, they're not gonna come out of suspension very easily. The oils maybe you could get the to separate uh over time.
+
+[25:15] Now you also might be able to break the suspension using a um you might be able to break the suspension using some form of kind of ionic shift, but that's also gonna mess with the with the taste. An alternate technique is to use kind of uh adsorptive technology. Now I've never tried it, but you know, s you know, the the most extreme version that we would normally use is uh something like an activated charcoal or some kind of bentonite. But the problem with both activated charcoal and bentonite versus the fining agents that you know we use, which typically like titasan kesel salt, is they are extremely uh high flavor stripping uh as well because they're rather, I like to say blunt instruments, right? So they will strip color, they will strip any sort of kind of charged solids, and they do have the ability through adhesion to remove um colloidal size suspended solids for sure.
+
+[26:12] You know what I mean? Uh but they are going to strip also very, very much so strip the flavor. Now, if you're starting with something that's extremely high highly flavored, like an espresso, you might like the end result, right? I'm just warning you that it will be super flavor stripped uh at that point. So I mean, yeah, the other alternative is to is to switch to some sort of cold brew technology.
+
+[26:36] Now I've been experimenting with very uh the problem is it's hard for me to do valid experimenting because I just don't like the product. Like I like espresso, and then after espresso, I like uh pour over, and then everything else is like, you know, a distant 95th to those. You know what I mean? So it's like um it's hard for me. Um also remember those guys that were on what's the name of their coffee extract?
+
+[27:02] They did that freeze-dried coffee. That stuff was dead clear because it didn't have any of the oils in it. I bet you could do a free stall. I bet you could freeze thaw, like maybe a gelatin freeze thaw and you might hold it, it might come out clear. Have you tried it?
+
+[27:15] The other problem is that the coffee, like the the interesting thing about cold brew is is uh it doesn't appear to to degrade as quickly as um as drip and espresso, probably because there's not much there to begin with. Boom, boom. You know what I mean? But it's like, yeah, yeah. But you know, for some reason, you know, I I was talking, uh, it's gotta be like 10 10 years ago to uh Andrea Ely.
+
+[27:40] Uh for some reason he took a meeting with me. If he thought he was talking to like a normal, like a reporter style dude, and so I just started peppering him with questions. And uh I I don't even remember his accent, some sort of northern Italian thing. Nastasi could probably make fun of it for me. But he like uh, you know, he was like, well, the stuff starts, you know, um stuff starts uh, you know, auto hydr, you know, auto uh auto hydrolysis or whatever he said, auto, you know, auto destructing as soon as it's uh as soon as it comes out, so it really can't be preserved.
+
+[28:09] And so I guess that's the reason why people like cold brew so much is because it's so freaking stable. So but by the other hand, like it maybe it's true that the like the the fact that coffee gets so crappy when it's been sitting around for a long time, uh maybe that stuff is also stripped out through like a freeze thaw. So you could try it. I've never tried it. In fact that might be worth trying at the bar just because I don't know.
+
+[28:30] I'll give it a shot. You never know. You never know what's gonna what's gonna happen. You know what they said? Um so not Andrea Ely, but they had some other person who was running their coffee stuff at the time and she I forget her name.
+
+[28:43] This is back when Ely was putting a lot of money into uh into having like galleries around where they would you know try to mix art and coffee which I don't really care about. I like art. I like coffee. I don't really need them together. Uh but they I feel that yeah but they um she said that there's a huge difference in letting let's say you're gonna do like a a Shakerado where you're going to or whatever people call it nowadays where you take a shot of espresso and just shake it on ice with or without milk, right?
+
+[29:10] And everybody knows that's delicious because the espresso has enough body uh especially if you had milk but even without milk it foams quite a bit you know what I mean and so you get a real nice texture out of it. And she was saying there's a drastic difference in flavor and I've never run the test because I'm lazy and stupid and because I don't like the beverage, right? Uh between letting the espresso cool down to uh you know um near body temperature so like you know I don't know 35, 40, whatever it is in Celsius uh before you shake it versus doing it hot and putting it directly on the ice and if my memory serves although this is like eight, nine, ten year old memory. Uh, uh I think she said it's better if you let it cool before you shake it, but I can't remember. Isn't that weird?
+
+[29:54] That is weird, because all I can think, yeah, that is that is very strange. I mean, the perception of flavor would change, definitely, because obviously the beverage has cooled down a hell of a lot. Um, but maybe there's some more degassing in that process as well. Yeah, maybe. I mean, like, it could be that she that it could be just that when she pours it in hot, she's getting that, you know, a little bit more of dilution and she likes it less.
+
+[30:15] I don't know how she was a coffee person, not like a science person, like you know, eat you know, yeah, you know, the that that Ely Sun was a science person. So sometimes when someone's not a science person, it's hard to judge whether they're telling me something based on some simple mechanical fact like dilution, or whether it's a more complicated, like the coffee is changing as it cools, and somehow that's better for chilled coffee. So who the hell knows, you know? No, definitely no, definitely. Yeah.
+
+[30:43] Anyway, cool. Well, thank you for answering my question. That's perfect. Cool. If you get any good results, tweet me, please.
+
+[30:48] Yeah, no worries. Cheers, man. Thanks. All right, thanks. All right, we're gonna take a break, Matt.
+
+[30:52] Back with more cooking issues. Piedra Blanca Rancho in San Simeon is the original Hearst Ranch, founded by George Hearst in 1865. George's son was the famous publisher William Randolph Hearst. In addition to being known for building the iconic Hearst Castle, William was, like his father before him, an avid rancher. In his words, I would rather spend a month at the ranch than any place in the world.
+
+[31:42] Thanks to one of the largest land conservation easements in California history, a joint effort with the California Rangeland Trust, the American Land Conservancy, and the State of California. Learn more about Hearst Ranch at Hearstranch.com. So uh So Matt, we back? Can you can you please find on the uh in the archives? I don't I miss when I heard that Hearst Ranch Grass-Fed Beef was going to be the sponsor this morning, and I didn't know until I showed up.
+
+[32:22] Uh-huh. Uh, I was like, thank God I get to hear the Hearst Ranch grass-fed beef song. And yet there was no Oh no. There's no, where is it? So wait, it used to be like we had an advertisement.
+
+[32:37] Yeah, like a song, yeah. Um I don't know. Um And then you had like you had them talking about their abattoir, which I love. I have no idea, but I'll have to go away in the way back machine. Yeah, yeah, go find that and like, you know.
+
+[32:52] I will pull it out. No extra charge, Hearst Ranch. Yeah, no, we'll play that. It won't even count as a drop, guys. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:59] This one's on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um that's lovely. Yeah, see we can find it. Do you want to do a question from the uh from the chat room?
+
+[33:07] Sure. Okay, here we go. Um testing my reading. Dave, the hammer and mat. And listeners, any experience making Peixode style bitters?
+
+[33:16] I'm thinking Anise and Wild Cherry Bark, but would love to learn what other herbs and flavors to add, and if it's worth trying to make this style, or if I should just be happy with the existing Peixods Creole style. Okay, so who wrote that in? Uh Pelum Bar 82. Okay, Pelum Bar. I don't know if you're from Pelum Pelum Pelum Bay, the Bronx.
+
+[33:35] But or perhaps you are trolling me because anyone that has worked with me knows I hate Peyshodes bitters. Ooh, I love this. So I have never. It is useful for the Sazerac, right? But in general, I detest it.
+
+[33:50] So my classic substitution for Peyshood's bitters. You ready for it? Cough syrup. Like cherry-flavored Robotusin to me is a dead ringer for uh Pesho's bitters. And in fact, uh we used to make um Robotusin sazeracs.
+
+[34:09] We would call them, what do we call them? We called them Robosacks. And then we would we would make them, and then we actually did a Robotusin flaming sazorak and called it the flaming Mozerac in honor of uh Mo Sislak from uh that was his name, right? From The Simpsons, the bar, the bartender from The Simpsons. Oh, yeah.
+
+[34:28] So, yeah, I'm glad you asked. I have never researched it because I in fact hate it. Uh, but uh I would look at whatever the ingredients they have in uh cherry-flavored cough syrup are and I would go with that. And if you make a sazzerac with a tiny bit of cough syrup, and you don't happen to have Peyshood's bitters, it is almost a dead ringer, I would say. Yeah.
+
+[34:51] What do you think? What do you think, Matt? Question answer. Yeah, yeah. Alright.
+
+[34:56] Um let me get some questions that people send in because otherwise people they'll get mad, right? And stuff? Okay. This is from Joe. Could you uh and Dave, I guess, well, Nastasi, Nastasia doesn't care, so she won't elaborate, but please provide some insight on the development process for the turkey club and existing conditions.
+
+[35:12] Looks awesome. By the way, I had a great meal at Pasta Flyer about two weeks ago. Really enjoy it. We'll definitely be back. Nice.
+
+[35:19] Nice. Nastasia's like, nice. She's like, your praise means nothing to me. So mean, Stash. Thank you.
+
+[35:25] So there you go. See, now that seems genuine. Yeah. That was genuine. For those of you that don't know, that's genuine Nastasia.
+
+[35:31] Like in between bites of pizza roll. So, uh question is a turkey club development. So we have a turkey club on the menu at uh existing conditions, and the concept behind it was what's wrong with a turkey club? And it's the turkey is what's wrong with a turkey club. Usually it's um either it's like some sort of like when you make turkey breast commercially, you have to cook it to an extremely high temperature.
+
+[35:54] Uh and also in order to keep it moist, they inject it with preposterous amounts of phosphates and water just to keep it moist. And so in general, that's the bad part of it. And if you just cook a turkey traditionally and rip it up, it's good, but odds are it's gonna be on the dry side. So uh the other problem is is that the you know the turkey isn't the shape of the bread, and so it's it can be kind of problematic. So what we did was is we take turkey, we glue it into a breadloaf shape using uh transglutaminates are when I say we, I mean shorty, like you know, I had input, I was like, we want to make a turkey club.
+
+[36:28] We because it's you know one of, you know, it's one of the great sandwiches on earth. I'm not gonna get into any discussions over what is and what is not a sandwich, but like almost any top 10 list of sandwiches, if you think about it, turkey club's gonna be on that list. I mean, even Nastasia likes a turkey club sandwich. Uh so we took the uh meat, t turkey meat, glued it into a loaf pan so that it was the shape of bread, low temped it to uh I think we do 66, so it's you know not pink at all, and then slice it into tranches and then uh tranches, what is this freaking finance? So slice it into slices and then that slice fits over the whole piece of bread, so every piece has turkey, and the turkey is moist and we hope delicious, and so that's the that's the main thing.
+
+[37:09] Otherwise, we didn't mess with it. And in fact, on the description, it's a I I hate it when people mess with something that I that I love, which sounds weird, but unless someone specifically says, yo yo, we messed with this, please be aware that it's called a turkey club, but really it's soup. You know what I mean? Like, you don't hate when people do that, like, hey, Turkey Club sounds great. It comes, it's a soup.
+
+[37:29] And they're like, Well, you didn't read carefully enough. I shouldn't have to read carefully. If you say it's a turkey club, it's a freaking turkey club. Now, if you say, hey, but it's really it's it's a re it's a ribolito where the bread becomes a bread soup Italian style, and then we have turkey chunks in it, and like a crumbled bacon garnish, and like no, no, no, no. Then just say, like, you know, ribolito a la turkey club or some crib like crap like this.
+
+[37:52] Don't write turkey club. Okay. Anyway, uh so my point is is that I wanted to write, and j uh, Don and I wanted to write Turkey Club, and then in the description, we wanted to write turkey club sandwich. Because really it's just a classic turkey club. And everybody knows what that is.
+
+[38:08] You got your three slices of bread, you got your mayonnaise, your lettuce, your tomatoes, your bacon, your turkey, your pepper, your salt, you're done. Right? Nothing else is allowed to be in that. Right, right, Sas? Anyway.
+
+[38:20] So that was the that was the that was the whole development. Someday, well, next time Don's coming on, we'll have a uh we'll have our we should have a listener, we should have a listener poll. Can we do that, Matt? We can do anything, Dave. I say that not knowing how we would do that, but yeah.
+
+[38:34] I'm interested to hear what other people's top ten sandwiches are, but I don't want to be trolled. Like if someone says, Do we have the ability to perhaps do we have the ability to permanently ban people who say hot dog? Is there any sort of no. Um we we can build it. We'll make it so.
+
+[38:51] Yeah, or like we could publicly shame them or something. Definitely we we can publicly shame. That's well within our power. I mean, I want to know like real sandwiches, people, like Cuban, like Cuban sandwich, Turkey Club, Mexican. We can have you record a public shaming message, and I'll just load it up so that it plays 24-7 on the heritage feed.
+
+[39:10] Yeah, some people might want that though. So they're see this is inviting trolling. Alright, good point. Yeah. Uh greetings from Namibia.
+
+[39:17] I've attached an article you might find interesting. As you know, uh we scientists have used controlled water baths in the lab for decades. The last 10 years have sent that technology uh have seen that technology become affordable for the home cook. I was there for that. The attached article, Journal of Chemistry Education, details the use of economical home circulator equipment for analytical lab use.
+
+[39:34] Uh perhaps a bit of the dog wagging the tail. Uh or the tail wagging the dog. Yeah. Uh cheers, uh, Christian. Then I read that, I read the article.
+
+[39:42] It was interesting. So it is this basically this um the uh in the one of the ACS's uh American Chemical Society, I think, journals, they uh they reviewed, or in essence, they took a home circulator and then ran it through a bunch of tests using NIST certified uh calibration equipment to determine uh how well calibrated they were, whether they could be used in a lab environment. And the answer is they can. So uh I was interested in it. I read it.
+
+[40:11] Uh as usual, they mischaracterized um they mischaracterized uh the cooking uh you know, someday it's it's not like it's not even that it's that interesting. I you know, because I really get when people go into like historical things over like this person came up with this and this came up with this, it gets I I just I can't get myself to care about it too much. You know what I mean? I care more about like how things work, but yet I could go through that article, which is a good article, and point out how they get the historical advent of the inexpensive circulator and of sous vide and circulators and cooking in general wrong, as everybody does. Uh, but I won't bother.
+
+[40:49] I won't bother. Uh but it's an interesting, interesting article. One interesting thing I did gather out of it is you know how we tell people to they do insulated and uninsulated. I'm not sure, I can't remember whether they do covered or uncovered, but I've always said, and I hate when I see people using circulator bass when they're not covered. I hate it.
+
+[41:08] You know what I mean? Like this, you do it uncovered, oh my god, I forgot. Oh, please, Jesus, don't remind me of that party. Oh my god, oh my god. Where you set you set Fahrenheit for Celsius?
+
+[41:18] Oh Jesus. Oh my god, she's trying to kill me. Uh just even bringing that up, just oh Jesus. The steak I put my hand in uh room temperature, damn water with no top, in a metal pot, used as a door stop when we were supposed to be serving. Oh my god.
+
+[41:38] Memories, oh terrible memories. Oh my god. Uh so the um point being that um, you know, I've always said and I always hate seeing circulator bass that are uncovered, and it's they evaporate more, and um I always figured there was a temperature difference between the top and the bottom of them because the stuff's evaporating and there's a lot of evaporative cooling. As soon as you cover the bath, you eliminate evaporative cooling because you're not getting a lot of evaporation off, and the headspace above the cover equilibrates rather quickly. So it's you know, it's the same like covering a pot.
+
+[42:10] Um so I really hate it. Well, the only time I I allow people to have uncovered baths is a reheat bath. So re-thermalization baths are typically uh like five degrees or more below below the cooking temperature. So if something is cooked at 60 degrees uh Celsius, the bath is going to be at 55, let's say. And so for there, a degree up or down doesn't make that much difference in that range.
+
+[42:38] And when you're doing something for service, you want to be able to go in and out quickly, so it's convenient to have no lid. And that's the only time that I allow kind of uncovered baths. Otherwise, I hate them. Uh also I hate it when people don't separate the product out and so that they can agglomerate together and they don't cook properly, but that's a whole separate show. I could scream and yell about that.
+
+[42:57] But one minute. Hold up. So uh the point is is that they measured it, and there was, I believe, I can't remember, but I think like a 1.6 degree temperature difference between the top and um the bottom. Uh so that was uh interesting. Oh, uh Jeff Given uh writes in, he goes, uh heard you whimper, I do.
+
+[43:16] This is to the person who called in. I heard you whimper, I do when Dave asked who does the dishes. Incredible, good work, that's all, Jeff Given regarding the beta male. Uh you like that, Set? Yes.
+
+[43:29] I don't like beta males, though. Well, that's a terrible thing to say. You're like it is, you're feeding into like a bunch of garbage ideas about gender roles. Some people like beta males, some people like alpha males. I do not like beta males.
+
+[43:44] I what? Like you're feeding into a bunch of garbage. Why is it a bunch of garbage? Do you like alpha males or do you not like anybody? Yeah, there you go, Matt.
+
+[43:53] Thank you. I am Najad, I think Najod. A bar novice under Andrew Nichols. Hey, Andrew. Uh, in Amsterdam.
+
+[44:00] I was hoping you could maybe help me a bit or have some tips. I've entered a competition for which I want to make Granny Smith vodka. I've managed to do so without ending up with apple juice and some vodka by dehydrating and rehydrating with vodka. Now to brighten the color and clarify, I want to do uh by the way, when you dehydrate and rehydrate, it's never gonna be as bright. You can, you have to scorbick the hell out of the apple before you uh dehydrate it.
+
+[44:20] Anyway, um now to brighten the color and clarify, I want to do milk wash since only since using agar will keep the juice color, since only using agar will keep the apple juice color there. Uh is an art-based uh cocktail, so color does matter. And I would like to be the color of Granny Smith green or uh light variety of that. I read the chapter uh on liquid intelligence on milkwash, but I find it hard to find a proper uh milk uh to apple ratio without losing the crisp fresh fresh apple flavor. Do you have some advice since Google wasn't able to give me any also?
+
+[44:49] More experienced bartenders here in Amsterdam weren't able to help me any further. Most didn't even know what milk washing is. Uh kindness regards, uh, I think it's Najod uh from Beef State Club in Amsterdam. And P.S. whenever you're in Amsterdam, please come to the bar.
+
+[45:02] So milk washing, I don't think is gonna do what you want here because uh any sort of wash like that is going to strip color. Uh so you're gonna get a very uh stripped down um very stripped down color on it. Now, obviously, if you want Granny Smith green, you need to keep the skins on, and you're gonna need to make a juice uh with the Granny Smith. Here's what I would recommend. Uh, because I don't think milk washing is gonna get you where you want.
+
+[45:29] For instance, when you milkwash, by the way, the ratio is always about the same. It's 250 milliliters of milk to uh to a liter of product. The other thing is milk washing isn't going to get rid of uh cloudiness, it will strip out tannins and polyphenols and wood and other things and color, but milk washing is not gonna remove um, it's not gonna clarify stuff. I would look in liquid intelligence, it's there if you have a copy of it, in the apple section, I believe it's in the apple section. I believe it's there, for uh auto Houstinos and look up auto Hustino.
+
+[46:03] Here's what I would do. I would juice Granny Smith apples. Make sure you leave the skins on, make sure you leave the skins on. If you want it hyper-green, you can even just uh like you know cut out the cores so you have a higher skin ratio and get the skin in there, get it really green. Ascorbic acid the hell out of it.
+
+[46:21] Okay. Now, get yourself some very, very strong vodka. So stronger than 150, uh, stronger than 150 uh proof, right? So, you know, very high proof vodka. And then add that, add the juice directly to that vodka so that the end result is about uh 100 proof, about 50% um liquor.
+
+[46:48] If you do that, the high the high uh quantity of ethanol in that will destabilize the pectin in the apple. All of the solids will clump together and drop out of solution, and you can rack the vodka right off the top of it, and it'll happen in a day, and the color will be pure and awesome. Uh, and as long as you have enough ascorbic acid in it so that the green doesn't oxidize, because granny Smith uh takes a good with ascorbic acid like like two, three weeks to start oxidizing if you include enough ascorbic acid in it, you will be able to get a bright green Granny smith vodka. Now, the only problem you're gonna have here is if you have to use a particular company's brand of vodka. If you have to use a particular company's brand of vodka, hit me back and I'll give you some more ideas because using the technique I just told you, you will be, as we say, enfrancais SOL.
+
+[47:42] And that has been Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[48:09] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[48:34] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. I'm HR Renz, Communications Director Kat Johnson with a preview of this week's episode of Meat and Three.
+
+[0:27] I I think we should realize that we more or less have a broken food system. When 800 million of us go to bed hungry, uh 600 million are obese. Uh we waste 30% of our food. Then something is fundamentally wrong. We'll introduce you to one food waste solution happening in Asia.
+
+[0:45] They introduced a system where residents were issued an electronic IP card that would open an automated bin and enable them to weigh the food waste being dropped off, and then they would be charged, you know, in a certain amount of money for the weight of that food. And we'll take a look at some of the real struggles happening closer to home. How is it possible that a meal that was perfectly fine to consume at 1059 p.m. then becomes waste at 11 p.m.? So tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:18] Available wherever you listen to podcasts. Like one o'clock from Bernard's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and Matt in the booth. How are you doing, Matt? I'm doing great.
+
+[1:48] Yeah? How are you doing, Nastasia? Good. Yeah? Everything for real?
+
+[1:51] Good? Yeah. So Nastasia and I did an event at uh Cesare's farm at the Center for Discovery on. I had to bring Dave a toothbrush. Yes.
+
+[2:00] What day of the week was that? I pounded so much coffee on the way up. I'm like, I'm on this train. You made me get on this train way early. Bring me a toothbrush.
+
+[2:06] Tell him about how you accidentally bring the wrong toothpaste. Well, it's not the wrong toothpaste. It's not toothpaste. So when I travel, I try to like, I try to, you know, bring the the what's it called? The travel size stuff with me.
+
+[2:20] And so, you know, like travel size toothpaste isn't in our normal medicine cabinet where the toothpaste is, because why would it be there? I'm not traveling out of my medicine cabinet. You know what I'm saying? So we have this like bucket full of stuff, and I'm always like, oh, it's like, you know, it's always like, you know, zero. Whatever.
+
+[2:39] Whatever it happens to be. Lamas something horrible. And like it's some horrible thing, and it ends up like it's like, oh, there's the travel toothpaste, and you throw it in and you take it with you, and you never notice until like that night, you know, or whatever, and you you put it on the toothbrush, and you're like, that does not look like toothpaste. It's very a couple of times I have almost gotten it. I've actually had a situation where that like whatever product it is has actually reached my lips and my my mind only at that split last second processes.
+
+[3:15] That didn't look right. And then you pull it away, and you're like, oh, hey, and I can't be the only person that this happens to. It has not happened to me. Matt? You know, now that you've inspired such confidence, you already have someone with a question for you on the air.
+
+[3:35] Really? Alright. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, this is Jeff from Los Angeles. How are you doing?
+
+[3:42] Good. How about yourself? Doing well. Great. So, quick question for you.
+
+[3:44] I have the older champion centrifuge. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Champion made a centrifuge? Oh, champion. The blood centrifuge, not champion juicer.
+
+[3:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The champion uh, whatever it is, O3. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got you, got you. And so I have a spinzall too, but I have the old one.
+
+[4:06] And wanted to know if I could use that centrifuge to basically get yeast for beer. So, in other words, after the fermentation's done, what layers would I harvest in order to get the yeast if I was going to use that? Right, I've never done it, but the champion actually is probably pretty good for that because it's a pelleting fuge. And so I would guess that, you know, uh you'd get like the large amount of I I've never done it, but I mean, my guess is is that you would um just take the stuff, spin it, they take the solids, resuspend it in some uh fluid, let it like live for a while, then spin out the deads again, and then it's you should have an active thing. This is a thing that's knowable though.
+
+[4:54] I just don't happen to know it off the top of my head. I researched it once, but uh for this you definitely want a pelleting fuge. Like um, I mean, the spinzall would work for it if for larger quantities, but if you're only looking to get small quantities, I would say that that champion probably does a good job. And um the question is are you spinning out the live stuff and the dead stuff? That's why I would I would pellet it and then get that pellet a couple of times and like build it a couple of times, then eventually the pellet should be more healthy.
+
+[5:26] I think what you want is the pellet, because I don't believe the yeast is going to be um it's I don't think it's going to be in solution. I think it'll pellet out. Pulling along some dead yeast shouldn't be a problem anyway. It just provides nutrients for the living yeast. So well it depends on how much though, right?
+
+[5:43] Sure. I mean that's why what I would do is is like assuming that you're harvesting from an exhausted system right you got a like a lot of deads a lot of a lot of auto uh you know autolized yeast stuff in there which again not terrible in in smaller quantities but like not a lot of nutrients left if you want mainly healthy stuff I would take the pellet and then uh I mean you could probably if let's say you're in a cloudy environment I'd throw away the stuff at the bottom because that's almost all dead stuff right then I would spin out the the cloudy liquid and then boom that pellet has still has a lot of dead stuff in it. I'd grow it once more and spin it and then you have deads plus a lot of lives I'd bet. If you want it healthy right away. If you're going to rebuild it it doesn't really matter.
+
+[6:25] You know what I mean? Yeah. Make sense? Okay. I mean I'm sure someone on the chat room has uh has something to say about this which by the way Matt is a question somebody had the question they had was uh this is from uh Kieran can I get a link to the cooking issues chat room I Google it every once in a while but only the dead links from the blog appear my Google Kung Fu is pretty strong but I'm not even sure if this is a cooking issues thing a heritage radio thing or some other third party.
+
+[6:53] So where do they get to this yes so I have told uh Kieran but I will tell everyone what I told him. So it's actually a mixler thing. Mixler, M-I-X-L-R is what we um use to live stream. And so you would go on there and uh follow Heritage Radio Network, and that is how you get to the chat room. So you so you can't, is this something that can be searched after the fact?
+
+[7:16] I would think that searching for this via the Googles would be very difficult. Then why do we why don't we use something that's easier to search? I mean, if the idea is to let people chat and therefore get new information and or search old information. I think what would make sense would be including very obvious links to this at various places, like on the website for the show. Are they a competitor to Google?
+
+[7:40] Why is Google so bad at finding it? I don't know. I haven't tried it, only he has. Oh, geez. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[8:06] Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, anyway, hopefully that helps. Let us know.
+
+[8:09] Tell us about your yeast, your yeast experiences. Um, yeah, so Nastasi and I did uh an event at the Center for Discovery Farm, which was good. Uh that was, by the way, people, our 10-year anniversary. For those of you listening to the show, you know that Nastasi and I fear fear bonded out of having to share a ride where we were being driven around by a rabbit anti-Semite. For those of you that listen to the show, you'll remember that.
+
+[8:34] And so, like that kind of He was there. He was there, we saw him, and I wasn't like, oh my god, Anti-Shemite. But I kind of said that to Nastasia. I was like, Oh, we're there, here he is. Uh, but uh yeah.
+
+[8:46] We also heard a good comeback to a joke, but we can't tell. I cannot tell this joke. It is not safe for work, but it was the best comeback to a joke. Yeah, that I've heard in a while. I've heard in a long, long time, especially like it wasn't like written out of a show or something, it was just like a live comeback, and it's not the kind of thing so like you know, you know how like I mean I don't know you because you're gonna come to the bar and hear it.
+
+[9:09] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know who you are, but you know, you probably have stored up somewhere like a list of like 20 or 30 comebacks. You know what I mean? Like ready to come back at somebody, you know, no, you uh stuff like that. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:24] But it's like this comeback had to have been boom right off the cuff, like it could not have been pre-constructed, which made it even better. Yeah, yeah. So then the day after that, we had the Star Chefs opening uh party that Nastasia did not do. I did with the bar where we served waffle turkey, but it was not wild turkey. There was our sponsor, so we did it with Buffalo Trace, which means it was it was Waffalo.
+
+[9:49] Oh, that's uh and then uh that went fine. So Star Chefs is going on now. I haven't been yet, but for those of you that want to go off to the Star Chefs, go check out the Star Chefs. Where is it, Nastasia? Green Point.
+
+[10:00] Green Point. It's called the Brooklyn What? Expo Center. Brooklyn Expo Center. And then I feel like I have another event.
+
+[10:07] You did a thing yesterday, last night. Oh, we had Taste of New York for City Harvest. What is it? Just one freaking event after another. We did uh we did Don Lee's uh Joy of Mango Drink There existing conditions bar, and then I have an event also tomorrow.
+
+[10:22] We're doing a museum of food and drink, but I it's a fundraiser, but I believe it's a closed fundraiser. I don't believe we can we're selling tickets to it. Why can't I go? Who said you couldn't go to it? We could talk about it.
+
+[10:33] Did you ask someone at the museum and they're like, not for you? No, I didn't ask. But if you're doing whatever, we'll talk. Yeah, yeah. People, I mean, maybe they care, but they're not gonna hear.
+
+[10:42] Just like they're not gonna hear what that joke was. But it was good. And I have to say, it was a joke that was very quick to deliver, and the comeback was very it wasn't like this guy was like, oh, I could see this punchline coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna like, yeah.
+
+[10:56] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John Arnold, no relation as far as I know to me, right, saying, My name is John Arnold. I discovered your work through Kenji Lopez Alt, and have recently benefited greatly from the very thorough and detailed information you posted on cast iron pans and seasoning.
+
+[11:12] I don't know if you take questions via email. Nope. It went to Nastasian, so I saw here. Uh, but I thought I'd reach out to you, see if you do. I have three uh vintage Griswold pants.
+
+[11:22] These are cast iron pants people. I have some Griswolds, I like them. For those of you that don't know, the difference between like uh most modern, there are some modern people who doing it, but like the the most standard cast iron pan you buy now from Lodge, right, is not what we call polished. And so it's not polished in the sense of mirror polish. What it means is when you when you make a pan, like I'm pretty sure this is still how they do it, but back in the day, you ever do sand casting, Nastasia?
+
+[11:50] No. No? So what you do is you have uh like a wooden mold, let's say, of the pan. It's all like waxed and pretty mold of the pan. And you make an impression in green, it's called green, it's not really green, but it's called green sand.
+
+[12:02] It's like like damp ish sand that takes the impression of the pan, right? Then you lift up the mold, you lift up the thing, you take out your your you know, your your wooden, you know, model of it, then you put it back together, and then you pour the the molten metal into that. So, like anyone who's taken like casting or shop in high school has like done this typically with aluminum, so it's sand casting. Now, the and you can always recognize something that's been, and they can make giant parts with sand casting. This is the way, you know, giant things used to be made back in the day.
+
+[12:35] You can always recognize a sand casting because it's bumpy. So Nastasi, you've seen castings that are like a little bit bumpy, right? They're like a little bit bumpy. That's the actual, you're seeing the actual sand. You're seeing like the the impression of the stuff in the mold.
+
+[12:52] So this is the way cast iron pans are made or were made. I think they're still made this way. So what a lot of old time companies did was they would take an abrasive and they just you know smooth out that bumpiness on the bottom of the pan, it was called a polished pan. Now, it so happens that those pants season a lot better and become a lot slicker and smoother. Eventually, a modern non-polished pan will get a nice nonstick surface, but it's always a little bit bumpy, and I prefer the old polished pants.
+
+[13:21] Uh, and I have some old griswalls that are polished. So, anyway, so if I happen to mention it, which I might not even mention, who knows? So I went through that whole explanation for nothing. Whatever. Stasi's like, I hate you, I hate you, Dave.
+
+[13:32] I wish I wouldn't be working for 10 years, 10 years with you. Ten years I've been working with you. Worst. That was this was the actual Nastasia tricked me into buying champagne for a theoretical 10-year anniversary of working together uh like a month ago, when in fact it was just now that it was 10 years. No, it wasn't.
+
+[13:48] So Nastasi's a liar. No, because they did the event earlier. No, it's always in the fall. It's always in the freaking fall. That's why there's always freaking pumpkins and stuff there.
+
+[13:56] No, I swear to you, I have the email. We can have champagne. Listen, listen, listen. I don't know. I don't know if you know this.
+
+[14:04] I don't know. No, I don't know if you know this. Nastasia is an inveterate liar. That's not true. The Rainbow Room has this weird thing where they have they have certain champagnes and sparkling wines that they'll pour into a cocktail, but they will not serve you a bottle of that because they're like, any a-hole that's gonna buy a bottle here is gonna spend more money.
+
+[14:24] True or false. We've saw their cocktail list, and we could see what they were pouring into their sparkling cocktail. Oh, yeah, they had a crappier. They had a crappier, and we're like, we don't deserve the one that's spending a lot of money. Can't you just give us a bottle of the crappy one?
+
+[14:38] And they're like, nah. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[14:42] Anyway, so back to the cast iron pans. Uh I have three Griswold vintage Griswold pans, but one of them is baffling me a little bit. The seasoning seems to be very dark in some areas and light are more or less missing in others. I've used it around 40 times and seasoned it after each use by heating on the stove top with canola oil until the surface temperature is close to 500 degrees. Uh Fahrenheit.
+
+[15:04] Uh my other pans are very uniform, but this one has not gotten there yet. I've attached an image of the perplexing pan. Does this look like I should take it down to the metal with steel wool or just continue to season and hopefully it gets more uniformly seasoned over the entire surface? Um so I'm looking at uh John's pan here. And for those of you that don't know, I'm sure that you've seen this before on your pans.
+
+[15:27] Um on the bottom of it, it's black, which is good, and then there are areas that have a little bit of a light uh kind of almost reddish, like almost like you think it's rust, but it does not look like rust. So this could be a number of things, right? This could be that there are some spots that are only getting partially polymerized um oils on them. It could be some marginal sticking of the stuff. I would not bother uh like going through the full seasoning over time.
+
+[15:54] But the main question is this is the pan sticking? If you're having sticking problems with the pan, then I'd start worrying about it. If it's not sticking, right, then what it looks to me like is you have high spots, and those high spots are getting hit by um your spatula or whatever else you're using, and it's creating those marks by like scraping partially polymerized oil on top. If that's the case, I just give it a hit underwater with a scrubby like normal, uh, you know, a normal like Scotchbrite scrubby after uh each use and see whether it just gets better if you just don't worry about it so much. If it's sticking, you might have to do something more aggressive, but it's hard to tell from the picture.
+
+[16:35] I would guess that it's not sticking too badly, and that when you're using it, it's just gonna kind of get better and better as those spots get worn away. Don't be afraid of using metal implements, don't be afraid of using like a scotch bright uh pad on it. Uh, you know, just don't leave it wet. Uh that's the one thing I never do. I never leave my cast iron wet.
+
+[16:54] I scrub it and then I throw it back on the stove for like 10 to 15 seconds just to heat it up long enough to blast the water off of it. Yeah. Okay. Nastasi's like, don't care. Um Serena writes in, Serena, uh, first and foremost, thanks for doing your show.
+
+[17:10] I'm a food process engineer, and your podcast has made me remarkably better at my job and has helped me maintain my interest in my line of work. That's nice to hear. It's nice. Stas is like, yeah, nice. No, it's nice to hear.
+
+[17:21] You're being sincere for once? For once. Did I tell you people that uh how many? I can't ask you because you can't answer me. It's freaking internet.
+
+[17:29] Jeez, more on. Oh, you know what you have to do it. How many of you have seen Monsters Inc. though? How many?
+
+[17:34] My son, for those of you that see Monsters Inc., my son calls Nastasia Roz. And Roz is the character who ends up turning uh should I spoil it for them? Sure. I don't think I spoil it. Anyway, there's a twist at the end about Roz.
+
+[17:50] I don't know the twist. Well, I won't spoil it. Anyway, he goes, do you ha she do you have your paperwork with Askey? Like that. And so, like, she's like the boss, like the administrative boss.
+
+[18:05] Yeah. But in terms of the boss, uh, Booker started calling her Roz. Do you have your paperwork, Booker? Do you say that to him all the time? Yes.
+
+[18:15] Did you clean the trash booker? Anyway, so like, wait, what are you gonna say though? Oh no, it was about the fundraiser tomorrow. Oh. Oh, right.
+
+[18:25] But why are you talking about it? You said don't talk about it, and then you bring it up anyway. You're just gonna I know why, because you know that we can't invite people to it and you want to rub it in their noses. We can't invite people to it? No, we cannot.
+
+[18:37] No, no, no, no. I was gonna say that that I know a good fundraiser for it that we had talked about before. For it meaning the museum? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[18:46] Just remind me later. Okay. Alright. Because our listeners would like it. Why don't you just tell them?
+
+[18:53] Because I can't, because I don't really want it, because it includes me. Think about it. Oh, jeez. Well, it's a long drawn-out thing. Do you know what it is?
+
+[19:03] You're talking about like dinner? Yeah. Yeah? I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask whether people think it would be something that people would be.
+
+[19:12] No, no, no, no. Let's not. That's I don't want to talk about it right now. Alright. Jeez.
+
+[19:15] You brought it up. I know. Let's not forget people. Nastasia brought it up. Alright.
+
+[19:20] Now, onto Serena's question. Uh, or as she puts it, into the meat and potatoes of her question. I'm getting married in a week. Congratulations. Uh week and a half.
+
+[19:29] Still, congratulations. That's very close. I'm getting married in a week and a half and I want to make questions. What? Depends on when she sent the question.
+
+[19:29] She was married months ago. Yeah, because it we have it on in two weeks. What's her name? Serena. Do you not read these questions as they come in?
+
+[19:46] I hope that I mean, if you had been married, I hope that you're doing well. I'll tell you right now. This was sent on October 15th. So. She's getting married today.
+
+[19:58] Oh, hey, hurry up here. Wait, today, Dave? A week and a half. What's a week and a half from October 15th? If you don't answer the question right now, her marriage might fall into the city.
+
+[20:08] Oh, this weekend. Okay, okay, okay, hey. Serena, I got you. Here it is. Uh I'm getting married like right now.
+
+[20:14] Uh, and I want to make homemade caramel sauce as a wedding favor for my 15 guests. Okay. What can I do to either process or uh what can I do, either process or formula wise to make it fridge stable for a hella long time? Must be like uh West Coast, north like uh Northwest. Hella long time or even shelf stable.
+
+[20:33] Thanks in advance. Uh sincerely, Serena. Uh, and okay, she uses a recipe, uh, the caramel sauce from the sticky toffee cake that Rachel Ray does, recipe in a minute, I'll give it to you. And uh then she adds a postscript. Uh my mom keeps it in the pantry whenever I make it for her, but she lives by Filipino mom food safety rules, i.e., keep it on the counter until it looks weird.
+
+[20:54] I don't want to accidentally make my whole wedding party sick, so I'm seeking your advice. Okay, first of all, I see how you are different from Nastasia in that there is nothing Nastasia would like more than to make her entire wedding party sick as long as she was in on the joke. Let's not forget that Nastasia is the person who served sun chokes to people in massive quantities to give them GI upset while she was like, I'm not hungry. Remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:14] True, true story. Uh but we're not here to talk about inulin. So here's the recipe. Let's take a look at it, Serena. In a small heavy saucepan, bring one cup granulated sugar and three tablespoons of cold water to a boil without disturbing.
+
+[21:35] Boil until the mixture begins to turn amber about five minutes. Alright, so the heavy saucepan here obviously is to prevent scorching. The three tablespoons of uh cold water is just to get everything liquid before it scorches on the bottom. Uh, and you're turning it amber. And what that means is the vast majority of those three tablespoons of water is gone.
+
+[21:52] Since uh a cup of sugar weighs uh just remember here, a cup of granulated sugar weighs within 10 to 15%, depending on the exact grind you're using. Within 10 to 15%, the same as the exact uh cup that measurement of um water, okay? So just keep that in mind. We got one cup of sugar, you added three tablespoons of water, almost all of that stuff's gone because you boiled it until it was amber. Alright?
+
+[22:16] So you have a very high sugar substance here. Swirl the pot, and when the color, and the reason they say without disturbing, is they don't want to get uh crystallization on the side. So if you overly disturb something, you can get some uh flex on the side of your pan, it will recrystallize. That recrystallize stuff will crystallize the whole batch. If you get crystals in Christmas is ruined, etc.
+
+[22:35] etc. Uh, you don't have to worry, I don't think, about massive crystallization afterwards because of what's about to happen. Swirl the pot, and when the color is deep amber removed from the heat, stir in the remaining two tablespoons of butter, right? So it's gonna foam off the liquid in the butter, blah, blah, blah. It's gonna get the the oil in.
+
+[22:54] Then stir in two-thirds of a cup of cream and stir over low heat till smooth. Stir in the remaining quarter teaspoon salt. So what do we have here? We have two thirds of a cup of cream, a third of which is uh a third of which is fat, roughly a third of which, and the other uh two thirds of that are um, you know, fundamentally milk lits slash liquid. So you're looking at one cup of sugar to about, give or take, half cup of water plus you know, the balance of that two-thirds of a cup in fat plus a two tablespoons of butter.
+
+[23:30] So you're looking at a two to one simple syrup or something that's very close in sugar to maple syrup. Now, if you do it right, you shouldn't have too much risk of massive amounts of crystallization because it's not much higher than uh 66 bricks if it's higher than 66 bricks at all, but it's also probably not that much less than that. So the only real microbiological problems you're gonna have with this. Now, if the product stays good, i.e., if it does not um, if it does not uh crystallize, like you're not getting weird lactose crystals coming out of it, or it's not forming weird little uh chunks or milk solid things, whatever you get out of it, as long as it's structurally stable, right? And by the way, it could separate a little bit.
+
+[24:12] So, like I make a cream syrup much the same way as this, but with no heat, we make a cream syrup and it separates, right? But then you can put it back together. It doesn't get granular. The texture of it doesn't go bad. Uh the main danger you have to this product is yeast, right?
+
+[24:29] So I don't you're not gonna get any kind of pathogens growing in something with that high of a sugar content. So what I would do is I would put them into jars, and then I would put the jars in a water bath, and I would bring that water bath in, and you're not like canning to kill bacteria, you're just uh pasteurizing it to kill yeast. Like yeast is your main enemy here. I mean, maybe there's something that grows in there, but I highly doubt it. I've never heard for instance, like if you have maple syrup and you open maple syrup and then you put your maple stirrup on your shelf, right?
+
+[25:03] Then you have the chance of getting a disgusting mold on the top of your maple syrup. That would have any styles? Uh no. Oh, it's gross. Like mold slash yeast.
+
+[25:12] It's disgusting. Disgusting. So if you're not going to use your maple syrup uh very often, it's a good idea to uh if you buy large quantities of maple syrup, which is always cost effective, uh remember that it's already been a heated product, so you're not hurting anything by heating it. Uh you could put them into smaller mason jars, close them, and then kind of uh, you know, bo you know, boil the boil the water around them, and as long as it gets up to the temperature that's gonna kill all of the kind of yeast and mold in it, then you're good, and then it's not gonna go bad forever, fundamentally. Uh and so I would say the same kind of rule happens here.
+
+[25:47] I would say a very light um, you know, seal in a in a in a mason jar, or even like pour it hot into a mason jar and then seal it and then immerse it in in you know simmering water for a little while, because I have to look up the temperature to kill yeast and mold, but it ain't that high. And remember, you're starting with something that was you know kind of on the warm side anyway. So I would not worry about damaging uh your guests because of the incredibly high sugar content of that product. Does that make sense to us? Yes.
+
+[26:15] Yeah. And good luck with the with the marriage. Um I mean, not good luck, like good luck with that, but I mean, like, you know, have fun. My experience with getting married, I've only done it once and only hope to ever do it once. What it was more emotional than you thought it would be.
+
+[26:32] Cried Stasia's just a terrible person. My experience is that you're in a good journey. You know what I mean? It's gonna be a good journey. I can't possibly bring your mumbles up to a audible uh volume.
+
+[26:44] She's look, Nastasia. Here's some things Nastasia hates. Uh people who have like kind loving relationships. Not true. And people with children or who like their children.
+
+[26:57] These are the things that Nastasia hates. Beta males, beta males, don't be a beta males. You know why, but but her definition of beta male is someone in a kind loving relationship who cares about their children. That's how she defines it. I just don't like doormats.
+
+[27:13] And by doormat, she means someone who doesn't say F you, I'm not taking care of those kids that I spawned. That's not true. Yeah, true. True. Nastasia turns out hates women.
+
+[27:33] No, no, no, that's the show title. Break time. What's the female equivalent of uh of an alpha uh versus beta? But you don't like you but you don't like it. You don't okay, but you don't like alpha males.
+
+[27:48] I do like alpha males. Whenever you see someone that I would consider an alpha male, what you say is like you know what I mean? Like you you you turn on the repeat douche stutter. There's a middle path that she's promoting. Yes.
+
+[28:02] So you she likes a guy that's kind of a douche like that. No, not douche at all. Soft spoken douche. Soft spoken douche like that. Like that?
+
+[28:11] Like who do you like? He does doesn't like douchebags. Which is how I define alpha male. No, not every alpha male is a douchebag, though. Oh yeah?
+
+[28:14] Okay. All right. Look forward to more explanation explorations of this topic on future cooking issues. Yeah, yeah. You know, we got a comment in on the thing.
+
+[28:31] Someone's like, yo, this you keep after the beta meals. I don't even know what that means. I don't even know what that means. I really don't know what that means. All right, Caesar writes in.
+
+[28:39] Wait, we are taking a break. Oh, we're taking a break. Right back with more cooking issues. We now bring you our Bob's Red Mill Food Fact of the Week. Cornstarch is a dense powder made from the endosperm portion of the corn kernel.
+
+[29:06] First of all, I would bet that Nastasia hates the word endosperm. Cornstarch isn't really dense. I think of it as kind of a slippery feel uh powder. Uh I like it. Uh, what do I use cornstarch for mainly?
+
+[29:19] Let's say you have AP flour and you want to knock down the protein level in AP flour. Let's say you're making cookies, you're worried the cookies are gonna be tough. Or you're making pancakes, you're worried the pancakes are gonna be tough. Anything where you're using a flour and you don't have a very low protein flour to use, add a little cornstarch up to about 10% of the weight of the flour in cornstarch, and you'll soften the flour up. It's not the same as having a completely soft flour like you would a cake flour, but it goes a long way towards reducing the tendency of those flowers to get tough in in uh baked things.
+
+[29:51] Thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob's Red Mill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. That's cooking issues 25, no spaces, 25's a number. And we are back.
+
+[30:15] We are now joined in the studio by Kat from the home office at Heritage Radio Networks. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you, Dave? Doing all right.
+
+[30:20] Nastasia? Uh presumably you do not hate women, Kat. Uh I don't. I don't. Neither do I, which is uh something we haven't used in.
+
+[30:29] Do you someone who says they don't like beta males? That's not. Isn't that basically some sort of like crypto anti-woman called? What is a what do you define as a beta male? What does that mean?
+
+[30:42] I think there has to be a balance in a relationship where like if somebody cooks, somebody cleans, right? Okay. And then we have a lot of beta males who are like, I'll cook and I'll not buy the equipment that I want, and I'll wash the dishes, and I'll okay, we won't have sex tonight. Like, whoa, whoa! So you're saying that shoes callers.
+
+[31:06] That she just said an intensely anti-woman thing there. What? What did I walk in on? Well saying that. That's anti-beta male.
+
+[31:15] I don't understand what it has to do with it. So you're saying I feel bad for the women. So what you're saying is is that if she what I just heard you say was if she doesn't want to do it tonight and he's like, okay, I'm gonna do it tonight, that that somehow is anti, that's good. Like, that means it's bad for him to be like, you don't feel like doing anything tonight? That's a bad thing.
+
+[31:35] No, I'm saying he d he's done doing all this stuff, but for what? Like cooking? Like cooking and cleaning and not buying the equipment he wants. Like a lot of our guys are like, she won't let me have anything. Oh gosh.
+
+[31:49] Is this not just working on alienating the entire cooking issues? I think so. Is that the goal? I think so. I think I think Nastasia should have her own savage love-esque spin-off podcast.
+
+[32:00] Oh my gosh. I mean, I mean, I'm clearly am not qualified to be on that podcast, so you know. You could call in. I'll call in. So uh wow.
+
+[32:13] That's just yeah, I don't know where I don't know where to start with that one. I don't know where to start. So why don't we talk about something else? You had uh you were here to talk about the Heritage uh radio fundraiser. Are we gonna do this?
+
+[32:23] Yeah. So um on Monday, December 3rd, we're hosting our second annual winter in the garden, part two. And why do I want to spend winter in a garden in New York City? I mean, this is not Miami. Well, because we're it's gonna be in the palm house at Brooklyn Botanic Garden.
+
+[32:37] So it's it's it's inside. Yeah, it's a beautiful glass house, like over by all the conservatory. Is that the right word? Area in the garden? I guess, yeah.
+
+[32:46] So they keep it like, don't worry, climate control. Here's the best thing about how many of you out there, show of hands. Don't worry, I can't see you. How many of you've been in the dead of winter to a botanical garden? I have.
+
+[32:57] Dave has. You know what the most I have. You know what the most fun is? Having your heavy winter coat on and then walking into where they're growing palm trees in a jungle sweat box. Dave, have you been to the uh the bonsai room at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden?
+
+[33:14] Uh probably. I do like bonsai's, and I have been to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, so I don't specifically remember it, but yes. It's pretty cool. We're fingers crossed, we're gonna be able to do something in there. Listen, that's all I can say.
+
+[33:25] Do not put your cocktail on top of the bonsai. No, never do that. No. You ever you know what's a lot of fun? Uh so I had I I was one of those kids in the I guess this is mid-80s, who bonsai's were like be started becoming a like a big thing in sometime in the 80s.
+
+[33:42] There was like a p a bonsai push. And that's why everyone started selling. It was always those junipers. It was always those little junipers because they could look older and the leaves are so tiny that you know, it was all so people would sell, unscrupulous bonsai salespeople would sell these things, and then what would happen is is they'd all be infested with spider mites. And you'd have them for a couple of years, and then there would be an explosion of red spider mites.
+
+[34:08] Right? Yikes. Bear in mind these are indoor plants as far as you're concerned, because the bonsai. So where the freak are these spider mites coming from? So it had to show up from them.
+
+[34:17] Nastasia's mom once sent a a mighty batch. We've said this before on the air spider mites. A mighty batch of tomato plants wrapped in newspaper that somehow made the transcontinental crossing uh to Nastasia via UPS, and she planted them in her garden in those in a community garden in New York City. Yeah, and those those those like hail and hardy outdoorsy type California mites just freaking wiped out everybody. Nastasia's plants fine, because it's like I grew up in California.
+
+[34:49] I could take this. And like all the New York City plants were like, oh, ow! Yeah, yeah. What have you done? So anyway, so like I was wared I I kind of like w shied away from bonsai's after the traumatic red spider mite explosion that happened in my house when I was a kid.
+
+[35:06] I used to growing up associate bonsai trees with the beach because growing up in Alabama, we would drive down to Panama City Beach, Florida, and there was on the way back a bonsai tree store. Oh, nice. In Florida. And so I was like, bonsai trees are Floridian, right? No, not.
+
+[35:23] A way to piss off a bonsai person is to walk up to the person and be like, yo, how old's that bonsai? They're like, they're like, it's not about how old the bonsai is. It's the shape. It's the shape and how it's been trained. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:38] And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's great. How old is it? Can I give you the definition of a beta male in the urban dictionary? Oh, Jesus. Oh, oh, oh.
+
+[35:45] Paragon of accuracy, urban dictionary, where literally any Tom Dick or beta male can go add any definition they so choose. A beta male would never do that, and you know it. Okay, it's an unremarkable, careful man who avoids risk and confrontation. Beta males lack the physical presence, charisma, and confidence of the alpha male. Yeah, and so I think, but I think what you're doing is trying to reinforce what I think are toxic masculine stereotypes.
+
+[36:16] Which reinforcing toxin toxic masculine stereotypes is anti-woman. No, no, I think you're taking it too far. I'm just saying. I'm taking it less than one logical step. I didn't realize you guys had this kind of deep conversation on cooking issues.
+
+[36:35] When Dave tells stories about his life. Oh, I gotta, I gotta wait, wait, wait, stop. I gotta answer a question, and then you stick around, Kat, because oh, we never even said about the thing. Oh, gardens. All right, go, go, go.
+
+[36:44] Okay, so it's at December 3rd at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, Palm House, and Yellow Magnolia Cafe. Tickets are on sale now. Go to our Facebook page. How much they cost? Um, they are $135 dollars for general admission and $225 for VIP.
+
+[36:57] And what do you get for general mission? By the way, I hate VIP sections. Why? Because it's always the worst kind of people that are there. We had really fun people at our VIP.
+
+[36:59] All right. What do you get for it? Um I like general admission people better. It's a taste around event, so we're gonna have 13 to 15 chefs from New York and a couple from out of town making all different kinds of food. We're gonna have uh Dave's gonna have existing conditions team there.
+
+[37:22] We're gonna have Souther Teague, Damon Bolty doing cocktails, we're gonna have beer, cider, wine. What kind of cider? Um, hopefully Shreksbury. We had Shaxbury last year. We love those guys.
+
+[37:31] You're gonna get that crazy Maser. Maser? What's that? The mead dude from Enlightenment. Ooh.
+
+[37:36] Oh, you haven't even thought about mead. Now you have something else for me to work on. Um and then yeah, so we're gonna do some past food, some stations, uh, we'll have a silent auction. Last year, one of the biggest hits of the event was our wine ring toss. We had a bunch of bottles of wine on the floor, and if you you like paid a small amount to like throw toss a ring, and if you rung a bottle of wine, you got to keep it.
+
+[37:57] And it was like one petruse and a billion yellowtails? Yeah, exactly. That's a really good game. Yellowtail and kids. Just like when Phil comes over.
+
+[38:10] Nastalia's like lit lays the case of yellowtail. Oh my god. Nastasia. Nastasia has like a bookcase constructed out of yellowtail bottles stacked because her friends bring it. She won't drink it.
+
+[38:19] Yeah, yeah. Nice. Cheap friends, cheap friends. Um, yeah, so go get tickets. It'll be great.
+
+[38:23] All right. Now stick around because you want to talk about something else, but I gotta answer this question before they rip us off the air. Caesar writes in if you're still keeping records, I'm 29, male and single, trying to make all of my kitchen gadget purchases as intelligently as possible. Don't have need for a spinzall yet. So, Nastasia, you gotta sell this.
+
+[38:39] You gotta sell Caesar on spinzel. That's your next job. If you don't buy a spinzel, you must be a beta male. Well, no, he needs to buy it now before he gets married, right? No.
+
+[38:50] Why? Because who says maybe his he's our listener? Whatever. Disrespecting everyone. Disrespects, but then owns the.
+
+[39:01] We know that. There are 11. Yeah. All right, whatever. Do you know how many beta males have called in to complain about you?
+
+[39:08] Zero. All right. Uh I was hoping you could talk about coffee roasting. Specifically, what coffee roaster do you use? Considerations when moving up to multi-kilo units, the roasting cycle, flavor development, smoking, um, like meat and flavor infusing if you're feeling generous.
+
+[39:29] I'm just getting into coffee roasting. I'm looking for a deep dive into the subject. I've done some walk roasting with mixed results and just purchased a uh Genie Cafe coffee roaster. As it seems to be the only one on the market that is intelligent intelligently designed for its size. I won't want to move up to an approximately two kilogram unit in the next five years if I end up loving it.
+
+[39:47] Uh love the show, Caesar, uh, as in Julius. All right, so my uh my experience with coffee roast. Now remember, coffee is coffee is a subject that has been, and I've said this a million times, has been moving so radically over the past 10, 12 years that any knowledge that you have of um something like coffee is like you could be completely up to date five years ago, and then if you stop paying attention, you were you are you now know nothing. Like that's how fast something that doesn't seem like maybe to an outsider, like there's that much to know. That's how fast things move in coffee.
+
+[40:23] And so I'm gonna say that my roasting uh knowledge is way out of date. And so like I can't give you uh the the great news about it is is that there there are a lot of um there are a lot of websites that are completely devoted to this and can give you kind of and you know most of the time you have to I mean the way that I approach anything like this. So let's say I was gonna get back, I'm s I still roast coffee, but let's say I was gonna get back into being a real badass. Like, how do you do it, right? So what you do is is you have to pick up the fundamental skill of weeding out the the chaff from the good information on a website.
+
+[40:57] I'll give you a a non-coffee example. So like I just responded to a uh a text today, uh not text, but uh uh an Instagram comment that was sent to you know, sent to me. DM, Dave. What? It's a DM.
+
+[41:10] It's not a DM, it was a comment in the general thing. So get your term straight before you s before you sass me. Anyway, uh where they said it was uh yet another person worried about when they're doing low temperature cooking whether they should sear something before or after. The or is the important part here, because they're like, I always thought you had to do it afterwards. And the correct answer is that there is no one choice.
+
+[41:32] You can sear meat both before and after. The dichotomy is false. So you have to get kind of good at reading forums and experiments and finding there's typically one or two or three really good people in a scene who also I don't know where the hell they get the time, but they have the time to post a lot of information about it. And you can kind of weed through that and see what is people just kind of harping on minute things that don't really make a difference and what are important. But I will share kind of the my old school, uh like where I have been in coffee roasting.
+
+[42:03] So I started doing air popcorn popper uh stuff, which was the first imitation of the civets style uh roast, if you're into that kind of like clean air taste, right? I then moved on to I think they were called harvest roasts, which were tailor-made uh air popcorn poppers specifically for coffee. Uh and I they were fine, except for they're extremely loud, and two of them broke on me. I had two of them break on me in less than two years. Uh so I kind of got off of that, um, went back to the air popper for a while, and then started reading a lot of inform a lot of stuff on drum roasting versus uh air popping, and I got into the whirly pop.
+
+[42:43] So then I started doing whirly pop roasts. Um and I roasted whirly pop for a number of years, and then I got tired of twisting the whirly pop. So I uh and by the way, like everyone, like most of your measurements, most of all of that measurement stuff is like the most helpful at the beginning. Like, unless you're doing this is why I'm hopelessly behind in coffee roasting, is that now people are following very kind of prescribed roast profiles, beginning, middle, end of roast, and how they're ramping up and ramping down. And for that, you always need good temperature.
+
+[43:16] But when you're just starting, I think it's kind of very useful to like try to hit certain benchmarks, but then also to educate your senses, your ears, your eyes, your nose to what's going on, and then go back to the hyper control so you can kind of see what you're doing. So I controlled a whirly pop, I automated a whirly pop with a motor, and I finally threw away the whirly pop and I built my version of a kind of stove top uh burns sample roaster, which works great, uh, but it can really only do about a kilo. I have no experience with stuff larger than a kilo, except for if I was gonna go anything over what I have now, you need very, very good extraction unless you're gonna do it outside. Uh what I have noticed is that I think I forget which units do it, but some units now have the uh a catalytic burner. So that for those of you that never roasted coffee before, it makes an unbelievable amount of acrid smoke.
+
+[44:10] Okay. Now that acrid smoke can be controlled by taking a if you have the time and inclination, you can stand next to the mouth of the roaster with a blowtorch and just shoot a blowtorch across the mouth of the roaster, and that high heat will consume the acrid smoke, and you will get very little smoke coming out as long as you maintain that flame. There are people that put uh like a catalytic burner on the out on the on the outflow of gases on their roasters and burn off uh all of that acrid kind of bluish uh smoke as it comes out. And so that is the real impediment, I think, to doing larger uh roasts, not just the power, right? Because I can clearly do a lot more on my stove or if you built a propane burner uh or something like that.
+
+[44:56] But uh, I'm sure someone in the chat room has more information on this, and I encourage them to uh write it. What? Well, so let me see what I didn't answer, and then I'll see what I didn't answer. Um, Elliot wrote in about the uh Still Spirits Turbo Airstill. Said, is there if there's a show today, can Dave talk about this piece of uh still equipment?
+
+[45:16] It's cheap. I want to make absinthe at home with dried and fresh ingredients. Thanks. Okay, so uh what the turbo still is is it fundamentally is uh uh it takes a long time, but it does distillation instead of using uh a worm with uh water, right, to chill it off, it's just using a fan and forced air, which is a relatively inefficient way to cool off condensing vapors, which is why this thing distills at a relatively low rate. Uh I'm sure it you can distill something.
+
+[45:44] If you're distilling an already distilled product and you're just trying to get flavors and aromas out, then I'm sure it's gonna work fine. If you're trying to do actual distillation, which they encourage you to do, where you're taking like a like a uh a fermented thing and trying to get a full thing off, they don't mention anything about removing heads and tails. It's kind of crazy their instruction. They just say uh, well, you you distill it, then you mix it with water, then you put it through a charcoal filter, then you add flavoring. Now, this does not sound to me like a recipe for great spirits.
+
+[46:20] Now, and the the the structure of every still, right? Because it's not a column still, so you're not doing like hyper-purification, right? You're just you're taking stuff off as it as it comes. It doesn't have I I can't tell, I don't think, but I can't, it doesn't have like a lot of plates, it's not doing a lot of purification, right? So it's acting like uh like the cheapest of all stills.
+
+[46:42] So you're gonna have to do like a lot of cuts and you're probably gonna have to distill it a couple of times to get kind of the separation uh that you want if you are distilling something that has impurities in it. If you are not distilling something that has impurities in it, then you can act more like I act with a rotary evaporator where we're trying to get total recapture. And if you're trying to get total recapture, which you're not gonna do with an air cool system, whatever, I'm not even gonna get into that. But the point is, if you're trying to get total recapture and you're not worried about heads and tails and four shots and all of that kind of stuff, uh then sure, give it a shot. It'll probably work.
+
+[47:13] One note is I don't know what kind of safety mechanisms they have in in it to prevent explosions. Right? So, alcohol vapor is one invisible and two explosive. So, this is why everyone seals up their uh stills and makes sure that the fire never comes in contact with the alcohol vapor. Now you don't have a fire because it's electrical, but like, I don't know, maybe you do this next to your stove.
+
+[47:38] I don't know. Maybe you smoke. I don't know. I don't know what you do. I do not know your life.
+
+[47:42] So just be careful. And I didn't see any real safety warnings about explosion hazards in uh in their instruction manual. So just be careful out there. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[48:10] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[48:38] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:01] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues25 for 25% off your order. I'm HRN's Communications Director Kat Johnson with a preview of this week's episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup.
+
+[0:30] Fall is finally here, so it's time to get funky and devote an episode to some of our favorite spunky microbes. Why don't I just provide this beautiful whimsical lens on how the world works? They have so many roles. They're this strange and magical theming group of organisms, but they've got it all figured out. Should you eat the cheese rind?
+
+[0:54] Can you eat the rind? These are like the biggest questions. We'll answer all of your questions about mysterious mushrooms and crazy curds. Plus, we'll give you a sneak listen to the newest season of Modernist Breadcrumbs. So tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:09] Available wherever you listen to podcasts. From like 12. Hey, crap on you. 12, like 1245. We didn't start on time.
+
+[1:33] Not my fault. I was truly thrown. Matt, Matt in the booth. I was here on time, correct? Oh, before one minute ahead of time.
+
+[1:40] I turned it. I looked at you and I was like, oh my God, you're early. Yeah, and where was I live? Here in Bushwick Brooklyn Joined as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Good.
+
+[1:50] Matt in the booth. Hello, hello. Call in all of your cooking or beta mail related questions. Two 718497 2128. That's 718497-2128.
+
+[2:00] How you been doing over the past week, uh Nastasia? Fine. I feel like we've had a lot of crap. Didn't we do a lot of crap? No.
+
+[2:07] Do it just feel like we did a lot of crap. No, we did the farm, we talked about that. Yeah. What else? No, I had so many events last week.
+
+[2:14] We did I did Taste of New York. You already talked about that. Huh. So I feel like I had an event every like every day last week. Hmm.
+
+[2:22] Maybe not. Guess what I did do this weekend? You went to Connecticut. That's not the important part of the Poker. Red Hot Pokers.
+
+[2:29] It's gonna be Red Hot Poker season soon. I have a slightly new technology with the Red Hot Pokers. And when I posted on the Instajerk that I was going to uh that I was making the Red Hot Pokers, everyone was like, Can I make one? Can I make one? I was like, Well, you can, but they're super dangerous.
+
+[2:47] How many times did how many times did I have massive problems before I finally figured it out, Nastasia? Uh many. Yeah. What are they? Oh, that's an excellent question, Matt.
+
+[2:55] What is a red-hot poker? Well, I'm glad you asked. It turns out that in uh pre-Civil War uh America, um, you know, one of the good things that was happening in pre-Civil War America is when you went into a tavern in the wintertime and you ordered a hot drink, they would go into the fireplace and they'd take what's called a flip dog or an and iron, which is like a hunk of metal, out of the fireplace, and they'd shove it into your tankered of garbage. Your tankered garbage might be, you know, beer plus brandy or cider plus some other kind of brandy. You know, maybe some sugar in it and blah blah blah.
+
+[3:32] Heat it up with the red hot poker, and that's how they'd heat the drink, because you know, they had fireplaces and they had pokers, so the red hot poker. So in the early 2000s, a lot of when a lot of bartenders were worried about recreating a lot of uh old drinks. One of the ones that kind of no one was recreating because who the hell had a fireplace in a New York City bar was uh this kind of old school was called flip with a flip dog with uh with a red-hot poker. Um also called loggerheads, uh the genesis of the term to be at loggerheads. Nastassi's heard this story eight thousand times.
+
+[4:03] That's why you hear her hissing in the background. Fact matter as a Stasia, like your job here in Nastasia isn't to sit around and have fun. I know you think I know, I'm just I was concerned about everybody who listens and uh has also heard this. Well, excuse me, Matt has not heard it. Some of us are new here.
+
+[4:20] You might have new fans. Yeah, yeah. Now that you've pivoted to talking mostly about beta males, you've got a whole new audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
+
+[4:28] Uh okay. So, anyways, so um uh this started uh sort of drink started fading out of uh the picture as taverns with fireplace working fireplaces um started fading out, and that drink kind of faded out, but it turns out that super high heat creates these kind of cool flavors. So then I don't know, like 10 more than 10 years ago or you know, thereabouts, I started playing around with trying to figure out how to do this, and eventually, so the the main problem is uh, you know, originally we were literally heating slugs of metal up on you know our commercial stoves. Again, not very good for a bar. So I tried to make one that could heat itself, and uh a lot of hilarity ensued as I blow uh you know I made ones that exploded and all these other things.
+
+[5:12] You've seen them explode, right? It's nasty and nasty. You don't want to see one explode. Or they just burn themselves out. Um, so I finally found a, you know, years ago, I finally found an exact heater at an exact wattage that it is hot enough to heat the drink, in fact to ignite it, um, on a pretty regular basis, not so hot that it will explode, and they last for about a month during service.
+
+[5:39] So every year I build a set of these red hot pokers and we use them at the bar, and we're gonna try them at existing conditions. Uh although you know, with the number of seats we have, I think we're gonna have to raise the price just so that people don't order too many of them because if they order, you know, if you have like you know, eighty people in there and you know 15 of them order red hot pokers at the same time, it you'll shut the bar down. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[6:05] So we gotta price it at that level where it's not gonna like ruin service. Anyways. That makes sense to me. Thank you for explaining. You're welcome.
+
+[6:14] You're welcome, you know, Nastasia. Hey, so Nastasia, here's a question for you. Yes. So uh isn't the weirdest part, one of the weirdest parts about owning a business just looking out at your you and I have a business together. Yeah, but I mean, do we don't we certain we don't get to see in other words like a restaurant business?
+
+[6:31] Yeah. It's like looking out and seeing the people who are at your place and being like, who are these people? Where did they come from? I hope they're having a good job. You have a lot of dates there.
+
+[6:45] Um I guess you do not have a lot of pasta dates. I'm going out on a date, let's get safasta. Let's pack carbs into our date. No? No.
+
+[6:55] Well, so what's your average person? Like single person eating quickly. Yeah, beta male. No. I regret.
+
+[7:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I regret saying anything. But like I don't know. Like I look out and like uh what percentage of the people, not at your establishment, say, you look out, I look at what percentage of the people are enjoying what they're doing at any given minute. Don't you think about that when they're at when they're at any sort of business or sort of restaurant?
+
+[7:21] I think are they having an okay time. Yeah, we want them to have a good time, right? That's why we went into this business is to have a good time. So you're looking out and you're like, is that person having a good time? Is that person having a good time?
+
+[7:31] This is what I spend most of my time thinking about when I'm at the bar looking out, and like I have that confused look on my face. That confused look is looking at you and wondering, are you having a good time? I was at Charlie Bird sitting on the sidewalk with Robert Bohr and Mark a couple weeks ago. And that's uh Mark Ladner and Robert Bohr. Yeah.
+
+[7:54] They have a lot of like sidewalk area, and there's these rats that want to like run up to the restaurant. Not people, like literal rats. Rats. Yeah. And Robert's favorite thing to do is to go chase after the rat on the sidewalk that's coming toward his restaurant and kick it.
+
+[8:13] And I saw him kick one to death. Wait, wait. So first of all, first of all, I don't really know Robert. I mean, I've spoken to him, but I don't I don't know him. He has angry.
+
+[8:23] We we'd all get along. No, my that's not my point. My point is he must be a quick dude. Yeah. I didn't picture him as being a fast kind of a guy.
+
+[8:38] Excuse me. First of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, what kind of shoes does he wear? He was in like these nice leather, like he was dressed for work. Like pointy Italian shoes? No, they weren't pointy Italian.
+
+[8:50] They were, they were, but they were nice. They were not. They were not like sneakers or boots. Yeah, because he seems like a fancier person than I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:58] I wear I'm a sneak, I'm a sneaks kind of a dude. Well at the tree. First of all, props to the rat. And then it collapsed red. The rat's like, the rat's like, nah.
+
+[9:13] Nah. Crap on you. It comes back towards him. Yeah. But that's crazy.
+
+[9:19] I lost my mind. I was laughing so hard. Well, first of all, it m I'm sure most people would be horrified. Yeah, people were like, is he with you? And I was like, he owns this place.
+
+[9:34] Oh, geez. That's like so nostalgic. Do I know him? He owns this place. Not actually related.
+
+[9:45] But he's like, yes, I do know him, but more importantly, the place that you're about to, you know, patronize is his place, and yes, the owner of this place kicks rats to death. You should know for fun. Before you go in, I want you to know this dude, this is this guy here. He likes fancy wine. And he likes kicking rats to death.
+
+[10:09] It says so on his freaking profile. How New York is that? I saw it. What's his favorite kind of wine? He's by the way, he's a wine official.
+
+[10:22] I don't know. You don't know? No. But is he like I can guess, but I don't I don't know. But is he like an old school like wine like liker?
+
+[10:29] Or is he like all this new like uh natural stuff? Oh no, he hates I'm not gonna speak for him. But like I'm trying to imagine his personal profile. If he needed to have a personal profile, it was like I like first growth Bordeaux and kicking rats to death. Like what are they like, you know?
+
+[10:46] I'm trying to come up with like a e-harmony profile for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that, but I'm just saying, like if he weren't. Oh, geez. That'd be amazing.
+
+[11:04] Okay, some questions. We have some questions. Uh you know what we have to do first, I told you. Austin. Well, answer Austin's question, yes.
+
+[11:14] Okay. Nastasia is so uh, you know. You know what's funny is like for some things, she's on me like uh a freaking like a hawk, right? Why do they call it on you like a hawk? Is it on you like a hawk?
+
+[11:30] So in that I'm the mouse. So like Robert Bohr is gonna fly out of the sky and kick me with his shiny leather boot into a tree. And should I have the temerity to come back at him? He will kick me to death. Amazing.
+
+[11:47] He's gonna get all these like negative like PETA style things now. Where did this where did I just come from? Why is this happening to me? People also I just want you to know, having known Nastasia for too many years, many, many years, this is probably not his favorite thing to do. Nastasi probably made his year.
+
+[12:12] Again, Nastasia has a way of getting quotes out of people that are, let's say, let's say not what they would ordinarily say if they weren't with Nastasia. Peter Kim, uh director of the Museum of Food and Drink, and this show's favorite punching bag father, right? Um, has said to me on many occasions that he does not like to have meetings with the two of us together because we make each other much, much worse. He says he cannot have a constructive meeting if the two of us are there. You believe that?
+
+[12:45] He says that you feed off of me, and then he can't get stuff done. Hmm. I believe that. All right. Thank God that like not only do you guys have that power, but you also have a platform to broadcast that unedited.
+
+[12:58] Whatever the whatever you got out of somebody, you can tell the world. Thousands of people at once. Yeah, which is why you should never tell Nastasia anything. I keep secrets better than you do. What?
+
+[13:09] I have some. Name a secret told you. Name a secret that I've ever let out. I've never seen I've never revealed a secret. Don't say that, and then I've never revealed a secret.
+
+[13:19] Okay. I've never revealed I've revealed things that people haven't told me are secrets, but I've never revealed a secret because it just doesn't interest me to do so. What's a secret I revealed? Tell me later. Yeah, I'll tell you later.
+
+[13:35] I'll tell you later. A secret that you said not to say. Yeah. No. I'll tell you later.
+
+[13:39] No. No. No. Drop the secrets. Anyway, go.
+
+[13:42] Alright. Austin writes in. Austin, our friend Austin, formerly of Booker and Dax, now of Major Domo. Great place. In Los Angeles.
+
+[13:51] I had that was a really fun dinner. And that's saying a lot, because Nastasia, A, there's two things that she doesn't really enjoy. She goes out a lot, used to, doesn't enjoy doing it, hates even more admitting that she likes a place, especially if she's done business with one of the owners. If Nastasia has ever done business with one of the owners and she likes it, it's it's a grudging like. True or false.
+
+[14:15] True. But it's a really great place. Yeah. Uh although it's in a weird neighborhood, right? It's like in the like it's in the middle of an industrial neighborhood.
+
+[14:24] Makes Bushwick look like a residential neighborhood. Yeah. You know? This part of Bushwick. There is residential Bushwick.
+
+[14:30] But this is not residential Bushwick. By the way, for any of you who listen to this who aren't New Yorkers, I still don't understand. Matt, what neighborhood do you live in? Yeah. Do you understand why anyone lives in this neighborhood?
+
+[14:44] This neighborhood? Yeah. Is this even a neighborhood? Like who lives here? Yeah, no, I mean, yes, people do, I think, I gather, but no, I have no idea.
+
+[14:52] I mean, it's like an industrial park. For those of you that don't know, like, let's say you're driving down the highway in anywhere USA, and you just saw a bunch of industrial buildings with roll-ups and like garbage trucks parked outside of them, and like the occasional trash on the side of the street. You've been to this neighborhood. Yeah, except it's like I don't know, many, many dozens of city blocks of that. It's crazy.
+
+[15:19] But the thing is, is there is real Bushwick that is a real neighborhood where real people live, right? It's just not this neighborhood that we call Bushwick on the air. I don't think I've been to that. Where is real Bushwick? I don't know.
+
+[15:32] I I know it's real. I know it's real. I don't know. Um Austin, who is in the Roberta-style Bushwick of LA at Major Domo, a fine restaurant. Um I want to add texture to a carbonated uh highball style drink, and thought that a fat wash with coconut oil would do the trick without adding much extra flavor.
+
+[15:54] I know that Tona Palomino uh did a carbo uh peanut butter fat wash at WD50 uh back in the day, so I know it's possible. Can you walk me through the best practices for this technique? Actually, also I know someone was having trouble with a peanut butter fat wash who came into the bar the other day. Um the way Tona used for those of you that you know aren't like up on it, fat washing is where you transfer uh a fat soluble flavor in a fat to alcohol because uh uh the flavors that are fat soluble are also in general weakly alcohol soluble. So you can add a fat which won't dissolve in the um in the alcohol, but some of those flavors will be pulled all out of the fat into the alcohol.
+
+[16:42] You can then freeze or or separate, otherwise separate through filtration, uh not through uh through like a separatory funnel or something like this, you can separate the fat out and you get a fat-free but fat like flavored from fat uh alcohol. Uh in the case of peanut butter, you have to be careful because in peanut butter there are a lot of soluble things in it, right? So uh if you just mix peanut butter and and um uh what's the word, uh like alcohol, right? You then have to use some pretty serious like centrifuging uh or other forms of stuff to get it to settle out and become clear again because you're suspending stuff in the peanut other than just the fat, right? But you are doing fat uh washing, and because there's very little moisture in peanut butter, if you're lucky, there's very little moisture, um, you're not like extracting a lot of liquids from the peanut.
+
+[17:37] So it is a fat wash, but it's easy to get it, you know, kind of like murky. So the way tona used to do it, which is I don't know not the most efficient way, but it it you know works, is he used to spread the peanut butter very, very, very, very thin uh on sheet trays and then pour a like a thin layer of alcohol over the peanut butter to get maximum surface and uh area, and then he'd like you know, move it back and forth and he'd do it that way, just maximizing the surface area uh of the solid peanut butter rather than mixing it, mixing it together, and that's how he was able to carbonate his peanut butter fat wash and get it you know nice nice and clear. Um now if you're gonna do coconut oil, I mean I think the issue is is you're gonna want a you know you can't have uh the fat the coconut oil in the in the liquor because uh coconut oil specifically coconut oil uh gets very hard and clumpy when it gets cold, which is why if you buy coconut cream, which contains a lot of you know uh the fat from a coconut, uh it's super highly stabilized. If you read the back of a of a can of Nastasia Coca Lopez, it says, like, you know, it has like a million things in it, it's got like guar and LBG, carragea. I mean, I don't know exactly, but it's just a a huge crap spray of stabilizers in it because if you speak to any hydrocolloids expert, they'll tell you coconut fat is a difficult fat to uh to stabilize in a beverage system because the temperature drops uh and you're diluting, so it kind of clumps out.
+
+[19:13] So you're gonna want mainly the flavor, but I don't know if coconut, I mean, have you ever had a coconut oil nostalgia that was like, oh my god, this tastes so much like coconuts that I want to die? No. Me neither. I mean, like, I think like if you were to take there's some very high quality flaked coconut now, or you could just grate coconut and remove some of the excess moisture so you're not like sucking a lot of that cloudy, like you know, stuff into it, and then do a soak, and then what my favorite thing to do, my favorite thing to do nowadays is throw everything in the hydraulic press. That's why I'm gonna rewrite a lot of my orjah recipes for the uh bar where I'm going to, and how often do you get to say this on a family show?
+
+[19:57] I'm gonna throw my nutsack into a press and crush my nutsack under 20 tons of pressure to squeeze every last little bit of juice out of my nut sacks and get very high yield on my orjaz. How often do you get to say that on a family show Nastasia? You like that? Yeah. And I'm gonna squash my nutsack in a press.
+
+[20:22] Did I tell you, did I talk on the air about the new about the modifications I made to our 20-ton press? Yes. Or did I say? So you went to Granger and you got this thing. Granger?
+
+[20:32] Where'd you get it from? I haven't been to Granger in years. Well, it's an English. I don't know. I didn't buy anything from the McMaster Car.
+
+[20:37] I made it all from parts I scrounged. Okay. Jerk. Nastasia Lopez, well-known jerk. I made a the like a new lab where I have the you know, this um, what's it called?
+
+[20:49] I'm a member. Some idiot threw away like a thousand dollars worth of food grade Delrin. And so I just milled all the Delrin into I used it like wood, but like a non-absorbent wood, and I built an old school cider press out of solid Delrin. And then so now, like we have this Delrin cider press that we we can use for all of our waffle popcorn and soon nut sack crushing needs. What do you what do you what do you want to put in my nut sack and crush, Nastasia?
+
+[21:22] Not going there. Many things. Many, many things. Now, if you were to just soak coconut flakes, let's say, and not squeeze them out. I mean, the issue, I guess, if you had a very highly flavored coconut oil, you might be able to get some transfer, but it would need to be highly flavored.
+
+[21:36] And the advantage of that is you'd have extremely low loss because once you froze the coconut oil, it would go up to the top. So you'd melt, you'd have to find a very highly flavored coconut oil. Let's just go through with it. You'd find very highly flavored coconut oil, then you would melt said coconut oil, mix it into the alcohol, keep it liquid, uh, and I would say stir it occasionally to get maximum surface area contact, right? So I would stir it, keep the convection going, whatnot.
+
+[22:02] Keep it for like, you know, eight hours, ten hours overnight, then throw the whole sucker in the freezer, coconut oil will turn solid like a rock, and nothing will change it. Uh through the steel. Anyway, so then you poke a hole in the in the solid coconut oil on the top, and you pour out the coconut booze, and it should work, right? You have to find a highly flavored coconut, or the effect will be, shall we say, subtle, right? Yeah.
+
+[22:31] Because once you use coconut flakes, even desiccated coconut flakes, if you're gonna get the yield up, you're gonna need to squish them, and if you squish them, you're gonna get the cloudy stuff out. You know what I mean? And then you're gonna have to separate it. I happen to know Austin has his spinzall, so we could probably do some good separation on it, but I haven't done a lot of separation work with uh squeezed out coconut sack, so I don't know whether it would work, so I can't say. Second question.
+
+[22:55] I'm working on a gardenia syrup for a Pearl Diver. So gardenia syrup, by the way, a syrup, a tiki drink syrup that does not, in fact, contain gardenias. Can you eat gardenias? I don't, I thought they were poisonous. Are they?
+
+[23:08] So why are they naming a syrup after them if they're poisonous? You're gonna look this up, whether it's poisonous. By the way, Nastasi and I yesterday, after the radio program, we went to the Star Chef's and we met this guy. I'm not gonna blow up his spot, but he had all of these edible flowers. Remember this, Nastasia?
+
+[23:23] Yeah. It wasn't yesterday. It was last week. That's what I'm saying. Was it yesterday?
+
+[23:27] Oh, sorry, last radio show, last Tuesday, right? So Nastasi and I are going, and Nastasia put on her, like Nastasia put on her you could live, you could die, I don't care face, which is kind of her standard face. It's her standard, you know, like if a meteor was coming down and she knew it was gonna hit you on the head, maybe she'd move you. You know what I mean? Like that gardenias are non-toxic to humans, but they're toxic to dogs, cats, and horses.
+
+[23:56] It can cause bombing diarrhea and hives in animals, but not people. What the hell is that all about? I don't know. You know what else apparently is that uh like alliums, apparently toxic to dogs. But do you know, do you like?
+
+[24:08] Do you believe all these stories where people say things are toxic for like I mean, how different am I from a dog or a cat? I know chocolate. I know chocolate, I've heard alliums, but I mean, it could be true. I don't know. You know what's another thing that's not really poisonous, at least not that poisonous?
+
+[24:23] Poinsetis. Oh, really? Didn't you grow up with in mortal fear of poinsetis? Your parents would be like, you're gonna you look at the poinsetter wrong, you will die. And then you're like, and you're like, oh my god, now I want to eat it.
+
+[24:36] Now I want to eat it. I'm gonna eat this damn poinsetta. What about you, Matt? Did you like did you grow up with this problem? I did not grow up with this problem.
+
+[24:43] Really? Are you a Christmas guy? Am I a Christmas guy? Are you Christian? Are you of Christian extraction?
+
+[24:50] Oh, yeah. We did Christmas. But you don't have you didn't have poinsettas? I I remember poinsetas in church. I don't know.
+
+[24:57] But not like at your house? You didn't have poinsetas at your house? At my house? Yeah. Oh no.
+
+[25:03] I like this. It's like who has poinsetas in their house? We have who brings that poison into their house. Well, no, I just I had a Christmas tree. That's what I got.
+
+[25:13] Yeah? Are you a are you a real Christmas tree guy or are you one of fake Christmas tree guy? We were real. Well about you stuff as real. Yeah, yeah, real.
+
+[25:20] I don't like the fake creature, the first grade fake Christmas tree. You have one though. No, I I have a completely silver one next to my real one because as nice as a real tree is, it's not very reflective. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.
+
+[25:34] Anyway, that's for later. Although, pretty soon it's gonna be time to bust out Christmas hat. Christmas hat, Christmas music, Rudolph, all the stuff that Nastasi and I love. Yeah. It's the only thing Nastasi and I both actually like.
+
+[25:47] There's other things we like. What? Um like champagne. Also good to have at the holiday time. By the way, uh, so we had this argument with Jack, my head bartender, and so Jack is like Jack's one of these classic kind of wine snob kind of a guys who he's like only wants to drink stuff that you've never heard of.
+
+[26:10] If you've heard of it, he does not want to drink that. But here's the problem. So he got a very good, reasonably priced, and the names went out of my head, champagne, actual champagne, to have at our bar, right? And the problem is is that if you want people to come into a bar and buy a champagne, you have to give them a champagne that they've heard of. If the idea of having a champagne on the menu is to extract money from people who wish to spend a load of a lot of money, you have to appeal to the person who has a lot of money, and in general, that person is going to go for the one they've heard of, not for the one they haven't heard of.
+
+[26:43] Yeah. Right? Yeah. That is true. Do you serve champagne at your uh restaurant?
+
+[26:48] You have wine, you don't want to have a couple of fancy bottles around for fancy folk? I can't. I can't I can't even talk about it. All right. For that heavy poor.
+
+[26:58] Nastasia's like, Nastasia's like, I don't care what you charge me, just make the poor heavy. No, no, no. I'm talking about Nastasia. We're at I'm at the bar with Nastasia talking about a very exciting business development that I can't tell you. Uh and so by the way, speaking of the other thing, like someone came up to the bar and asked me what it is your mom thinks happens to all the soda cans, and I told them.
+
+[27:18] That's good. Yeah, yeah. Can't tell you people. Did you tell the when they come to the bar when I said the UPS person? Oh, Jesus.
+
+[27:25] If you come to the bar, you can add by the way, these are all things that are fair game at the bar, but are not fair game on the radio program. Nastasia went to UPS on Saturday, right? Well, we worked super hard, you and I. Yeah, yeah. We worked hard Friday night.
+
+[27:44] I worked as hard Saturday morning, same thing that we were sending. Yeah, and by the way, it was well, I'll say what we were sending. We were sending uh spinzall, so it's big, you know what I mean? And cocktails and cocktails as a demonstration of what the spins all can do. So now Nastasia, who, by the way, like if you had to list her top ten things that she does not like to do, right?
+
+[28:07] Getting hit in the face with a hammer or shipping things, they're kind of equal. You know what I mean? I mean, I feel like it's you feel the same way. I feel as someone say said to you, I'm gonna hit you once in the forehead with a hammer, or you'll never have to ship and you'll never have to ship anything again. You'd be like, ooh, yeah, let me see the hammer.
+
+[28:24] You know what I mean? Like a rubber hammer. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, so she goes, goes, physically goes to the UPS with this giant box and drops it off, and they just didn't ship it. She paid an ungodly amount of money for overnight weekend shipping.
+
+[28:39] Ungodly. Ungodly. It was still sitting in the place yesterday. Can you imagine? So Nastasia had, let's always say, uh, shall we say, choice words?
+
+[28:50] Choice words for them. That you know, Dave? That could not be repeated even on basic cable. And then after I said it, I had to get out of the store with the two boxes. Wait, wait, you took them to a different mail?
+
+[29:01] Yeah, because I was just like, I'm not dealing with you people. So, what did the faces of the regular guests customers? But the embarrassing part is then I had the two boxes and the door opened in. Oh, geez. I know, and I couldn't have to do it.
+
+[29:16] Did any of them help you? No. So I use all my strength and I like use one finger to pry the door open. It was like you didn't use your Drew Barry more fire starter anger. I was surprised I could do it.
+
+[29:29] Oh my god. That's so funny. I mean, let's just say, let's just say the C suck word came out quite a bit. Right? I mean, uh I would have loved to see, like, when so Nastasia spends most of her time just kind of internalizing anger and getting other people to be angry in her stead or to have miserable time so that she can kind of keep herself under control.
+
+[30:02] But on the rare occasions when Nastasia loses her mind, it is a rare treat for the rest of us. Alright, back to this. I am working on a gardenia syrup for a pearl diver riff. Ideally, I would like to be able to store the syrup in a squeeze bottle and keep it in the low boy at all times rather than having to keep it at room temp during service, back in overnight and back out again. Uh do you have any advice for proportions of sugar to butter and possibly alcohol that would keep it squeezable at fridge temp, or possibly some additive that would keep it from going solid on me.
+
+[30:36] And uh so, uh PS, I'll give you the Pearl Diver recipe that is on uh the internet. I forget whose this is. I probably looked up somebody I like, but probably maybe not, I don't know. It's probably in bib. I don't know, I don't know.
+
+[30:48] I don't know who the hell's recipe this is, but I'm gonna give it to you anyway. Three quarter ounce of lime juice, one ounce of laur uh orange juice, three-quarters ounce of the gardenia mix, which is that you know, mix we're about to talk about, three-quarters ounce of uh Demerara uh rum, preferably Hamilton 86 proof or El Dorado 8 here, one and a half uh ounces of uh gold Puerto Rican rum, half ounce of gold Jamaican rum. This is like a shotgun of stuff, one teaspoon of phalarum, one teaspoon, one teaspoon, Nastasia, of phalarinum. One teaspoon. These recipes.
+
+[31:21] Preferably latitude twenty-nine formula and six ounces of crushed ice, combine all the ingredients in a blender, starting with the gardenia mix and finishing with the ice blend at high speed 15 seconds, strain through a medium uh mesh wire sieve into a pearl diver glass, pressing gently on the solids to express all the liquid. Uh add crushed ice to fill the glass, garnish with a geranium leaf. What? Nothing. You hate this recipe?
+
+[31:44] No. Anyway, so then that's the recipe. But anyway, gardenia mix is one cup of unsalted butter, one cup orange blossom honey. You know, that's gonna be real subtle. The orange blossom honey is gonna be real, whatever.
+
+[31:55] I went to a honey store in Saratoga with Chef Haley from the Italian program. She's one of the uh the owners there. And they have this honey that we're gonna use. Did I tell you about this? From the it the is there a black forest in Italy?
+
+[32:06] I think it's a black Italian Black Forest. Do they have a Black Forest in Italy? I don't know. Anyway, the the honey is not extracted from pollen, but from honeydew, which is the uh sap of plants processed through aphid bodies. It's pretty good.
+
+[32:23] We're gonna use it in a drink. Anyway, orange blossom honey, one ounce cinnamon syrup, uh half ounce of allspice liqueur, and a half ounce vanilla syrup. Uh, and you combine all ingredients in a saucepan and whisk until melted and smooth. Uh, and so you have a butter syrup. The only answer to the first of all, butter syrup's always gonna go solid on you.
+
+[32:43] Um what you need to do is you need to stabilize this sucker with uh ticloid. Uh so ticoloid is a mixture of gum air ticloid 210 or two or three ten uh are mixtures of gum arabic and xanthan. If you can't find that, you can just substitute a um a very finely powdered gum Arabic and a kind of uh, you know, wrap it either agglomerated or you know, high quality, strong xanthan gum. I forget the exact ratio uh that I use, but it's in liquid intelligence. Uh and I think it's like four to one Arabic to Xanthan or something like this.
+
+[33:21] I have the, I keep saying I have this, I'll look it up. But you want to stabilize it with Xanthan and Arabic. And the the ratio is not really super important. You can add them separately. The Arabic is there and it's there in higher quantities on the order of like you know, two percent or something like this.
+
+[33:35] The Arabic is there as an actual uh emulsifier to emulsify the fat into the into the liquid. And you're better off actually um adding the sugar later, uh adding the Arabic to the straight water before you add the sugar uh in your cinnamon slash uh you know ginger thing or whatever you're doing there, all spice, whatever it is, I can't remember. Uh you're better off uh adding the Arabic and Xanthan into that and then adding the butter to emulsify it in and then adding the sugar. But you know, you can do it either way. Um so the Arabic is there on the order of a couple of percent uh to actually emulsify the butter in so that it makes a stable emulsion when you're making the drink.
+
+[34:16] The um the other part, the the the xanthan gum is there at a much smaller percent. You're talking like below a half a percent, probably closer to a quarter of a percent, and that is there to just make a light gel when it's sitting still, just so that it doesn't want to separate because it's fundamentally a solid when it's standing still. So that's what the two things are doing there. Now, uh I would not use a squeezy for this syrup. First of all, um having made butter syrups for many many years, they do go rather solid in the fridge.
+
+[34:50] They can still be squeezed, squeezed. Uh, but if you if you're gonna want to do that, you're probably gonna have to add more liquid, reduce it down more to get it to squeeze more because it does kind of solidify or get kind of real thick at at lower temperatures. But a squeeze bottle is not the answer, and I'll tell you why. Unless you're gonna free pour, which you're probably not with a squeeze bottle, because it, you know, the viscosity is going to change a lot. You're you're gonna go into a jigger.
+
+[35:14] And this syrup is gonna be real hard to get out of a jigger. So what we do at existing conditions with our cream syrup, which is also not very pumpable, is we um put it into a dosed pump. So we have pumps that put out exactly an ounce. And so the drink that we use this pump for has exactly an ounce of this syrup in it, and every time you push down, you get exactly an ounce. And we've tested it, it's accurate, much more accurate than trying to jigger something that thick.
+
+[35:47] And the pumps that we get are like syrup pumps, like for Tarani syrup, and they fit on Gatorade bottles, the ones we have fit on Gatorade bottles. So we have Gatorade bottles with these syrup pumps on it, and we push down on them, we get a very accurate dose again and again and again. If you wanted a smaller dose, they make smaller pumps, or you can just put a ring around the pump so that you can't push it all the way down, and you get your dose that way by saying, and they make very expensive volumetric pumps, but this is the super cheap way to do it. And we've been using them for uh a long time without any trouble. Now, long time meaning four months.
+
+[36:22] But you can pump it from the fridge. Uh, you know, it's just a lot thicker in the fridge. The one thing I say is that the only reason I can see wanting to keep this in uh not you know, not have it out, is because you're worried about Department of Health, because ain't nothing gonna go wrong with that syrup sitting out. Uh I know this because I've done it. Like it doesn't go bad sitting out, going in and out out of the fridge.
+
+[36:49] And as long I think the main problem with using these kinds of syrups on the regular and a higher volume bar is really the um is really just the jiggering, is a is a complete and utter nightmare. Also, cleaning creamy tins out is a little bit of a nightmare, which is why eventually we're going to do a uh, you know, a special menu called Creamy Tins that is only creamy drinks. What about what do you think about creamy tins, Nastasia? Your favorite superhero is coming back. Which one?
+
+[37:19] That Rebecca. What? Oh, you want to describe that? So uh so here's what here's what happens, people. Like uh now, it was not that bad.
+
+[37:33] So I like to call people get mad at me because anything that I'm involved with or people around me are involved with, I make fun of, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And uh, you know, I like to belittle anything that I do or anything that anyone I know does, right? In a kind of friendly loving way.
+
+[37:50] So I had to do uh this event, and I started describing this event as a complete boondoggle. And so Rebecca, who does PR for Booker and Dax, I was like, Nastasia, what the hell? Rebecca's taking us on a freaking boondoggle. And so Nastasia, because she loves nothing more than people feeling bad, tells Rebecca that I have described this this series of events as a boondoggle. And then Rebecca gets real depressed about it, and so Nastasia starts laughing about it to me, so then we start calling her the boondoggler, and that's her, that's her like bat villain name.
+
+[38:24] Her Avenger's name. Her Avengers name is the Boondoggler. So like when she she's a good guy, what she does is is it she takes the villains and she sends them off on this wild goose chase doing all this stuff instead of killing people. And they're like, I could have been killing people, and you had me at this damn event. The boondoggler.
+
+[38:42] And so, like, now Nastasia's been, you know. Oh, by the way. So she's coming on. Oh, yeah. Soon, yeah.
+
+[38:44] Yeah, yeah. So uh, so we do not know. We know Bob's Redmill is our sponsor today, but we don't know what ad that we're going to theoretically play once this thing goes uh on uh you know on the whatever in the hell it's on on the internet. Actually, it's a very well-timed Xanthem gum ad. Really?
+
+[39:07] Fact. You're just like, you're so intuitive that you just nailed it. Alright. Well, so then uh we will take a break. You can listen to some Bob's Red Mill stuff.
+
+[39:14] I will have you know that I'm experimenting now. If you guys have any ideas in the chat room, uh Bob's Redmill sent me to mess with some amaranth flour and some uh sweet sorghum flour. So sorghum, very interesting, uh very interesting grain. Uh, you know, in the greater class, I guess people, it's not actually millet, but people call it kind of great millet. Millet is one of those like poly, you know, it has no real meaning, it's just a whole bunch of small grains that aren't really related.
+
+[39:42] They're all in the grass family, right? But they're not, you know, I guess they're real grains though. They're in the grass family. So sorghums are uh super interesting because they can be used to make sugar. They were uh they're native and were um domesticated in uh in Africa.
+
+[39:58] Uh they're all there, so there's regular sorghums like baking sorghums, there's sweet sorghum. So Bob's Redmill has sent me some sweet sorghum flour and some amaranth. And I gotta play around with it to try and find an interesting application to talk to you about in the next couple of weeks. So if any of you in the chat room have some recommendations for sorghum flour that aren't just substitute this in your newest gluten free recipe. Because you know, how interesting is that?
+
+[40:22] I want a recipe that just is screaming for sorghum, not you know, a recipe where you could use sorghum or you could use this other thing instead. So give me some suggestions because I'm playing around with it over the next week. And with that, let's go to break. We now bring you our Bob's Red Mill food fact of the week. Xanthan gum is a thickener and a stabilizer.
+
+[40:52] So Xanthan, it's it's produced by fermentation. And it has incredible thickening ability, but it doesn't just thicken, it actually forms a weak gel that, but then can move around. And that's why it's so great in um in gluten-free and also in egg replacing, because it can hold uh batters and doughs. But Xanthan is great to have around. You're gonna want to use it typically in lower percentages if you're using it in sauces below about one quarter of one percent.
+
+[41:20] Uh, and also after you add xanthan gum, give it a couple minutes to hydrate before you add more because it's gonna keep getting thicker over the next five, 10 minutes. So don't add some, be like that didn't get thick, and then add more. Thanks to Bob's Redmill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob'sredmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use cooking issues 25 for 25% off your order.
+
+[41:43] That's cooking issues 25, no spaces, 25's a number. And we're back. So uh this weekend it was kind of uh it was like classic me, right? So, like I'm going up, I'm driving up, I go to Connecticut, and I'm like, okay, I do what I always do. I buy chicken thighs because I'm like, I know how to is like you know, it's the kind of thing where you know it's 2 a.m.
+
+[42:16] or it's 4 or 5 a.m. You you punch me in the side, I wake up and you're like, make these chicken thighs. You're like, okay. You know what I mean? And like, you know, you just make chicken thighs.
+
+[42:26] You know what I'm saying? It's one of those things that, like, you know, you can do in your sleep. If you were to take, if you were to remove my entire cerebral cortex and leave my brain stem, my body could still cook chicken thighs. You know what I mean? Uh, in this particular way that uh, you know, I always make them.
+
+[42:42] And um, so I'm like, okay. Well, you know, Jen's like, I don't want you to have to think, she doesn't talk like that. She's like, I don't want you to have to think, make chicken thighs. So I get the chicken thighs and I'm making them. And then I realize that, and this is the first time this has ever happened, it was raining like cats and dogs.
+
+[43:01] So I'm like, I'm not gonna use my cowboy grill. I'm gonna use the tandoor because my tandoor is partially covered, right? But I'm like, okay, so I go to get the coal, no coal. I had no more charcoal left. So I was like, what the hell am I gonna do?
+
+[43:15] And then I realized that I have been remiss in that I have not set up any of my fireplaces for cooking. So if you have a and here's something that is true fact. If you have a small, relatively small fireplace, and you have a fire in it, damn, the radiant heat coming off that thing burns the hell out of your hands when you're trying to hold, when you're trying to hold skewers of meat, if you don't have a meat skewer holder and you are holding in there the whole time, A, turns out your forearms and shoulders get pretty tired holding chicken thighs in front of a fire for a long time. And B the reflected heat is pretty no joke. Well, Anastasia, you also have a fireplace.
+
+[43:56] It's just fake. It's just made of fiberglass. Yeah, no, I made you get rid of that son of a gun because you didn't remove it so many times. So if anyone out there has a cool, like regular residential fireplace cooking conversion kit, I'd like to see it. Because like uh it's fun cooking in your fireplace.
+
+[44:19] It's just a real pain in the butt if you're not set up to do it. You know what I mean? No, I don't. I also, no, I don't, I don't have a fan place. Manny nanny poo-poo.
+
+[44:26] Says the person who like, you know, oh, they we don't have a fireplace at my timeshare in the Hamptons that I go to all summer. I know for a month, and I got to go once a week. But I did do it a week. I did do a demented thing. I tried to do uh, so you know how I put mayonnaise on everything that I grew?
+
+[44:43] Not on chicken, actually, but I put mayonnaise on all that stuff. So I did the I did the par steamed uh whole whole heads of broccoli on a skewer, and it's ended up poorly for me, right? So I was like, I want to put this broccoli on a skewer. I don't want to like not gonna skewer a bunch of pieces of broccoli because they're gonna fall off. So I'm gonna par steam the whole head and stick it on the skewer.
+
+[45:04] I thought I was being real smart, so I was like, I'm putting the skewer backwards so the hook is in the broccoli, so the hook is locking the broccoli so that I can rotate it, right? So I'm manipulating the sharp side of the stick, right? And I put mayonnaise, I parsteined it, salt, pepper, a little bit of sugar, and mayonnaise. Short answer, it was delicious, grilled broccoli with the mayonnaise coating on the outside because the mayonnaise was like dripping off into the into the fire, but enough stayed on that it was like delicious. Anyway, it ended up being good call.
+
+[45:35] Except for this, I s I ran my hand to go get it, and I shoved it into the skewer and I tandoor skewered my hand, and I started bleeding all over the floor at the house, and I was like, of course I didn't. Of course, this is of course. You know what I mean? And what did Booker do? Uh call you his idiot father.
+
+[45:57] Sorry, he started laughing uncontrollably because I was bleeding all over the floor. Let me tell you something. Having your son laugh at you while you're bleeding over the floor and burning your other hand trying to keep chicken aloft in a fireplace makes for fun times. Fun times. Okay, question.
+
+[46:14] Uh I've been in this is from Anand. I've been enjoying your podcast, uh thoughtful, thoughtful information antics and uh wonderfully meandering conversations for several years now. I now have a question I could use your insight on. I recently had a gas stove installed in my house, and uh it is a considerable upgrade from my previous electric contraption. I'm assuming if it's a huge upgrade that what you had before was either a ceramic top, which are garbage, or a resistance heater style top, also garbage.
+
+[46:42] I hate all of them. Uh man, do I hate them? Uh even the quartz ones I hate. Um, however, my current like induction. Induction's good.
+
+[46:51] Uh however, my current ventilation situation leaves much to be desired. Honestly, I'm not sure the current hood does anything at all, and it certainly doesn't look like it vents outside. I've heard Dave uh heard Dave mention in passing that proper ventilation is often overlooked and undervalued. So I wanted to solicit your thoughts here. How important is proper ventilation and why?
+
+[47:10] I have two young children, a five-year-old and a two-year-old, and so I have no desire to be careless with what they inhale while I cook. That said, I am unsure where the line is between cautious and alarmist. Your insight would be greatly appreciated. Uh on a separate note, Nastasia. Uh the beta male conversation has been amusing.
+
+[47:28] If an alpha male is the leader of the pack, then let's consider how many of our previous presidents, the most visible and arguably most powerful leaders in our country have exhibited stereotypic stereotypically alpha male tendencies, e.g., chest beating and assertions of dominance. Interestingly, the current president exhibits those characteristics in spades. So what do you think about it? What do you think about that? Is that what you want?
+
+[47:50] You want that? No, I just want confidence and swagger. Like, I don't want a doormat. And then Anand says, it can be difficult to give respect to someone who acts like a doormat, yet the fact that such people don't demand respect doesn't indicate that they don't deserve respect. Okay.
+
+[48:06] Look, this is just about like what I want. I I have like I'm run businesses. I don't want to come home to a doormat. I want someone to be assertive, confident, have swagger, be really nice. That's it.
+
+[48:26] Like what Nastasia wants, what she needs, whatever hat makes you happy, sets you free. Yes. What a cool. Anyway, um. Alright.
+
+[48:37] I don't know. I think that like, look, we beat you down pretty hard last week with the beta male thing. And honestly, this is I think beta males are for lots of beta. This is never happening. You get many of my friends are beta males.
+
+[48:51] Many of my friends are married to beta males. And the beta male says, yeah, I'm a beta male. And what's the point? Some of my friends. Yeah.
+
+[49:01] I had a beta male as a drummer once. Did you? No. Um did. No.
+
+[49:10] Who the hell has ever heard of a whatever, anyway. I had a drummer once that used to troll around the studio picking butts up off the ground and seeing whether you could get high off of them. That sounds like wrong. Yeah, right? No.
+
+[49:25] Okay. So on to uh Anon's question. Uh I had a bunch of drummers who thought they drummed well when they were drinking. That's the beginning of his question. No, no.
+
+[49:37] Yeah, so we're so we're on uh we're on this. So how important is ventilation? Well, I think a lot depends on your on your cooking style, right? So Harold McGee at the Harvard uh talked about um some new research that is coming out showing that uh oil particles uh like you know when you're frying like m microscopic oil particles stay in the air for a long time. So when you're volatilizing oil, which happens in a lot of high temperature heat things, this stuff is staying in the air for a long, long time.
+
+[50:09] Uh you know, as to and I think new new studies are coming out all the time, kind of relating uh relating um this to problems that are happening in the kitchen. That said, we've been cooking this way for a long, long, long time. So is it harmful? Probably. Should you have good good ventilation?
+
+[50:29] Yes. Uh I think the jury is out as to kind of what the long term problems will be. Um, but that's not to say that there aren't kind of long term problems. Um in other words, it's probably the oil the oil fumes are probably as bad as everyone freaks out when there's smoke in the kitchen, right? Which is still I just do not understand.
+
+[50:51] You know what I mean? People who smoke, people who smoke cigarettes get like freaky when like your kitchen fills with smoke. And I in my, you know, in my mind, I'm always like, why don't you shut up? Because the smoke's gonna be gone in a minute, and then you can eat this delicious food that I can't really make without generating this smoke. And everyone freaks out.
+
+[51:14] Everyone freaks out about the smoke. And it's because they perceive smoke as harmful. It's probably the oil vapors are probably more harmful, like the the microscopic oil vapors are probably more harmful to you than the little bit of smoke you're getting from you know cooking your steak. Um they're not as accurate and they probably don't hurt your eyes as much, but they're probably just as dangerous. But you know, I'll speak to McGee the next time I speak to him.
+
+[51:41] Uh I mean, look, I'm not gonna stop cooking kind of traditional high temperature cooking, because that's the way that I like to do it, um, until somebody tells me that it's as bad as you know being uh a regular cigarette smoker. But uh on the other hand, I would always go err on the side of trying to get good ventilation because it A, it's gonna be better for your lungs. Uh I mean, there were some studies back in the day, especially on people who cook over high heat all the time. The classic studies about 10 years ago or so or more were on women in China cooking over walks, uh having um certain forms of of uh cancer at a higher rate than other people do. Um but I mean good ventilation, I think, is going to become more and more important as these things become more and more.
+
+[52:31] Well, it's gonna be realized how important they are more and more as people kind of realize how damaging a lot of these kind of suspended vapors are and how prevalent they are. You ever wonder why like all of your pots and pans get a coating of grease on them in in your in your in your house or your apartment or why the ceiling gets a coating of grease on it uh even at a relative distance from your oven. That polymerized grease, right, is in the particles that are being generated while you're cooking. So all that stuff that's settling on your ceiling over the course of uh you know hours and hours, it's not just while you're cooking, it's hours and hours. That stuff is kind of settling in your lungs and you know settling in your system.
+
+[53:13] What effect it's gonna have over time, I think it's just now being researched, you know who knows? I would say go for good ventilation if you can. I think that it's one of the main things that uh hasn't been caught caught up with, you know, like we need to get good ventilation in in in our kitchens. And as more and more people who care about their health become uh you know cooks, maybe people will worry about it more. Maybe buildings will be built with good ventilation.
+
+[53:40] But uh if you have a a uh a hood that does not vent, you that is just a recirculating hood, you must, if you want the qual air quality to be good, uh first of all get a serious one. They make serious ones. They make ones that you can fry indoors with but you need real hardcore filters and real hardcore fans to make those things work. And you need to change the activated charcoal consistently and often which people don't do either. People are usually change it rarely uh you know and almost never in some cases.
+
+[54:11] And then they become functionally useless. Uh you know you might as well have nothing. Uh better to just take the extra time and energy and punch a hole through the side of your building or through your roof, put a big old honking fan on the outside. It's gonna be a lot quieter. Is there anything more irritating than a uh than one of those home fans uh over and think wearing your neighbors shower?
+
+[54:29] Well, especially your neighbors showering the way that what they do in the shower is unconscionable, but uh you know what I'm talking about. Uh Nastasia has unpleasant show, whatever, I don't want to get into it. But like that noise, that high-pitch noise of uh of the company that everyone used to get is Brone. Brone. Uh uh they're cheap, but that listen to this.
+
+[54:58] So the the pitch, the pitch that a motor makes is directly related to its speed, right? So most AC motors are a certain um a certain multiple of 60 cycles, right? And the smaller a fan is to move a large amount of air, the faster it needs to spin. And so it has this high-pitch noise because it has to spin so fast to push the air, right? This is why you're always better off, and they have to make the fan small because they're fitting it into something that's sticking over your oven or over your range.
+
+[55:30] So the real answer is you want to put that fan outside so that the fan can be much bigger. And if the fan's much bigger, it can rotate much slower. If it rotates much slower, it has a much lower pitch and softer pitch. And any day of the week, I will change I will trade woo-woo woo-woo woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo for wee. Cooking issues.
+
+[56:12] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[56:38] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Les Crusade, made in France since 1925. The first and finest enameled cast iron cookware and a favorite for generations. For more information, visit laycrus.com. That's L E C R E U S E T.com. I'm HRN's executive director, Katie Mosman Wadler, with a preview of this week's episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup.
+
+[0:30] This week we're looking at the way labels shape our perspectives on food. I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but is it acceptable to judge a wine by its label? There are some labels that I'd say are so bad they're good. As long as your paperwork's in good shape, you'll get a grass-fed label. Tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:52] That's meat plus sign t-h R E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. To like, you know, one. What? It all balances out.
+
+[1:22] It all balances out in the end. In the end, we all end up in the same box and or jar and or sprinkled over the same ocean. Uh join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good.
+
+[1:34] Yeah? Got Matt in the booth. How are you doing? Great. Yeah, call in all of your uh election or food-related questions to 718497-2128.
+
+[1:43] That's 718 497-2128. Today is election day. Uh Nastasia has not yet voted. What about you, Matt? That's the first thing I did this morning.
+
+[1:54] Yeah? I got up, voted, got a bagel. It's a New York life. Nice. How was the bagel?
+
+[2:00] It was totally adequate. Ooh. An adequate bagel is so sad. Can I tell you the worst thing I've done in years? Go.
+
+[2:09] I bought a bagel at a supermarket for my children. Oh my god. What do you don't like them, huh? Yeah, I mean, it was like for those of you that don't live in the greater New York area or any other area that has uh, you know, a high enough concentration with a real kind of Jewish culture. Supermarket bagels are garbage.
+
+[2:31] I don't know why it is that supermarkets can't produce a decent bagel or get someone who can produce a decent bagel to ship it to them, but even a relatively high-end supermarket or one that attempts to be high-end, their bagels are by and large, wretched. You know what I'm saying? Like, why is that? I don't know. Why are why why is it that like this is like my kids, whenever we travel, they're like, I'm gonna get a bagel.
+
+[2:57] I'm like, we're in the middle of nowhere. The bagels are not gonna be good. It's just gonna be like poorly made bread donuts. They're gonna suck. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:05] Nastasia, you ever had a good bagel, like in like, you know, in a non-bagel zone? No. Are there good bagels in LA? No. I have never I have not been to Montreal in many years, but even the Montreal bagel, I'm looking, I look at it with a little bit of side eye because they don't put salt in their bagels.
+
+[3:22] Like, everything else sounds great. You know what I mean? Like the wood-fired ovens, nanny nanny poo-poo, all of that, the culture, the history, oh, we make great smoked this and that. No salt. We've had this discussion before, Nastasia.
+
+[3:35] Like, you know, they're the Tuscany of bagels. Weird. You already have a caller. That's how rabid your fan base is. Nice.
+
+[3:43] Alright, cool. Well, it's been, well, to be fair, we should have been on the air twenty five minutes ago. Caller, you're on the air. It is. It's uh it's Matt from Mystic.
+
+[3:52] Hey, how you doing? You vote yet? Uh I did. I voted this morning. Nice.
+
+[3:56] So what's up? Um, so I'm in the process of upgrading my knives. Right. And uh I bought the duo sharp zone, the DMT. The big one?
+
+[4:09] That you recommend. Yeah. The 10 inch uh fine extra fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I don't know, and so what I wanted to do is I wanted to get handy with the hand sharpening before I actually kicked up for good knives.
+
+[4:23] Right. And I can't tell if like my existing knives are so crappy that I can't get a good edge on them, or if I'm just bad at hand sharpening. So I wanted to know if you had any um tips and tricks to get the most out of the duo sharp. What kind of knives do you have now? Shh, I mean, I have one of those like Victorinox Fyrox Chef's knives.
+
+[4:46] Are they stamped or are they forged? Uh I think that one is stamped. Okay. Uh you know, they're like they're pretty garbage. So I like how that's your knife, but yet you own a spin sall.
+
+[4:59] Strong. Yeah. Well, it was like my one bit of uh kitchen heterodoxy. You know, it's like I I just I didn't think uh good knives are that important. But now, you know, I'm almost 40, so I gotta step up.
+
+[5:13] All right, so listen. Adult, you know, adulthood. So uh look, the when you're sharpening a knife, right, the the m kind of the the crucial thing is one to get and there's many, many schools of thought on this, right? But in general, you're gonna want to take the rougher side of the stone. There are people who say that you need an even coarser stone if the edge needs to be taken uh down a lot.
+
+[5:37] I don't really believe that. Yeah, I don't really believe that. I think that's horse crap. I mean, you know, uh people who put very rough edges on things like use literally like large flat plate grinders, like spinning plate grinders, which I don't recommend you do with with your knives. But if you're on the fine side, which is the red side, right, uh the main thing is to just kind of you you I you know, I'd put some some glasses on or a magnifier, take a look at the edge of your knife, right?
+
+[6:08] So in a forge or even somewhat to an extent I guess in stamp knives, right, you the body of the knife has its own kind of angle. And then when you get down towards the cutting edge, there's the ground in edge, and that ground edge has its own angle, right? Now uh if you believe the old old school, old old old school people who were dealing with uh I don't think necessarily the the super high tech steel people do this anymore, but it used to be at the very very very cutting edge there was yet another another angle, right? And the idea it was you go to you know to uh you know you go the the angle becomes uh kind of larger and larger to become more and more sturdy, but because it's smaller and smaller, it's still sharp. Does that make sense?
+
+[6:54] So like the old school people would you at first you'd make sure that the body of your blank had the correct kind of angle and they're you know the good ones can you know be concave as they go down, or you can have crazy grantins or whatever in the hell you need, but then you have your actual cutting edge bevel, uh and that that bevel is the one that we talk about when we're talking about like uh a western storyle knife which is equal on both sides right versus a Japanese style traditional Japanese which is basically flat on one side and angled on the other um so that initial cutting edge is the kind of most important thing to kind of get right and so you have to look at it uh with a pair of glasses the old schoolers what they would do if when you're learning is you would take uh a sharpie or something like this and you'd mark along the cutting edge and then you just take a light swipe and then you look at it again and you can see if you're hitting too in other words if you're if you're if the back of the of the knife is too high and so you're making you know uh you know too large of an included angle there right you'll notice that you're taking off only metal at the very edge of your of your blade. Likewise if you're too shallow if the back of your blade is too close to your cutting stone then you'll notice that you're taking off metal that is much closer to the body of the knife itself and you're not taking off anything that's on the edge. And when you get that when you get that angle just right you should be wiping that sharpie off relatively evenly across the entire cutting edge right and so that's a good way of figuring out like kind of what the angle of your knife is. Now if you want to change that angle right you can go more aggressive. So the the smaller the angle is in other words the the closer the back of the blade is to the stone as you're sharpening the sharper in quotes you'll be but the more fragile your blade will be the cutting edge will be, and the more easy likely it will be to crack or chip or or roll over, right?
+
+[8:51] So the first thing you got to do is see whether you're getting your angle right. I think people freak out about getting their angle exactly right, but if you just pick up your knife and do long strokes and try to keep the angle relatively constant over the length of the stroke, you don't have to be some you know, like seventh generation master Japanese sharpener to be able to properly sharpen a kitchen knife. So I just wouldn't get that worked up about it. But the key thing is is that once you find that angle and you and you go, you have to keep going until you have done what's called form a burr along the entire edge of the blade. And so if you again you look under glasses, you'll notice that like once you have sharpened it down, um the edge will become very, very thin at the end and almost what's called roll up or form a burr on the side that's facing facing up, right?
+
+[9:40] Not the side that's facing the stone, the side that's facing up. And you should do one side at a time while you're starting, right? Um and then what you'll do is is you can run your f your thumb like starting like you know, uh from the dull side down across the across the edge, right? And you'll feel something that catches on your thumbs. Feel it and then flip it over and you'll feel what it feels like on the non burr side, and it should feel different.
+
+[10:04] You've caught the edge as you go down. So you'll see that you've what's called the form of formed a burr on the edge of your on edge all the way down. And a lot of times, if you haven't sharpened your knife in a long time, or if your knife has been bent, what you'll notice is is you'll get a burr edge in a couple of places, like maybe you'll get a burr edge near the point, maybe you'll get some in the mid in the belly, but you're missing some in the front. And a lot of times that's because your knife has been dented or whatever, but you need to get that burr edge along the entire line of your of your edge, or or you're not gonna not gonna win, right? Then that's what I was yeah.
+
+[10:37] So that's what I was wondering is like when I was feeling for the burr, it felt like it was either like on opposing sides, like there was a burr on one side and then the other. Basically what you described, like I was wondering if that was possible. So yeah, and you focus and you can go down and you can put a little more energy, like it's good like a lot of the time to do relatively long strokes that take up a now. The Japanese don't do this. The Japanese do little small areas and circling when they're doing their initial stuff, right?
+
+[11:04] So like they don't do that. But you know, for me, I find that I get a more you know, it's easier for me if I I focus on an area that needs focusing on, and so I'll do mostly straight pushes, right, to get that area in shape. But then I try to do some like slide pushes that kind of engage more of the blade so that I'm not like effing up one part of the blade, you know, and and you know, not the other, if you know, because you can over hone one side and then you have to take the whole knife down to that. So once you get a good burr edge on one side, right, assuming you're not too far gone, you get one good burr edge on the then you flip it over and you do the burr. Once you do that, then you can switch to the uh finer stone.
+
+[11:44] And you need to the the trick when you're doing this is to do finer, lighter and lighter pressure as you go. So if your first hits are relatively aggressive, right, your last couple of hits where you're going on the on the two sides, should be just the weight of the knife, really. Do you know what I mean? And then uh I all I also uh you know, if I have the time, uh, or if I have the stuff, I'll strop it, I'll like reverse strop it to knock any burrs off of it, or even just take it on my uh on my apron or oh my bad sometimes. And just like knock, you know, you know, like draw it the other way to knock off, you know, uh the last because that can really increase the durability of uh your blade.
+
+[12:23] Now, I used to back when I used bl you know guides, and if if you're interested in it, you can buy a cheap uh guide. Like there's expensive guides, uh like uh what is it? Uh I forget the names of them because I haven't. Yeah, Edge Pro. Like I have one, right?
+
+[12:37] Like those things. And they're good to try out so you can see what it's like to have like a like an extremely like machine mainly machine guided, accurate edge, so you can see what the difference is. And it really, they're a pain in the ass. They really are useful. And in fact, you know what?
+
+[12:51] I'm gonna go ahead and maybe recommend that you try one. Uh or you can use Edge Sharp as another cheaper guide that like hunting knife people use. Uh the Razor's Edge people put that out like you know, decades ago, and that was the first guide that I ever owned. And I have their book, which, although it's outdated, I think is still good, the Razor's Edge Guide to Sharpening. He's the guy that uh had the world record in uh speed shaving with a double bit axe.
+
+[13:14] Uh yeah, you heard me right. Speed shaving with a double bit axe. But um the information's probably outdated, but you know, that's kind of where I learned to sharpen. Um and he actually recommends the two-part sharpening. So you take it down to a good edge and then you do a secondary small sharpening at a higher angle just to make what he calls a more durable edge.
+
+[13:35] But I don't think very many people do that anymore. I think that's kind of maybe fallen by the wayside or like you know, is more important with older kind of steels. But I'm gonna go ahead and say that it might be fun for you and worth the time and energy to buy one of those uh sharpening rigs, uh, like the Edge Pro, just so you can see, just so you can see what it's like to take something down to like a you know, kind of mechanically perfect edge. You can see it, right? And then once you've done that a bunch, then I think you will be able to hand sharpen more easily, right?
+
+[14:06] Uh it's kind of it's kind of like the way they teach welding in reverse, where they make you learn the hard stuff first and then uh and you know, then teach you the easy stuff like MIG instead of re reverse. I think you should learn the easy stuff first so you can get a feel for the tool first, you know, for for like what you're doing, and then move on to the harder stuff. But at this point in my life, it's so much easier to pull out the the sharpening stone and just you know touch up my knives than it is to haul out the edge pro, bolt it down to the freaking table, choose the grit, set the knife, put the thing, shoop, shoep, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, flip, shoop, shoop, shoot. You know, I mean it's like, please. You know, that's like minutes of my life and like you know, storing the stuff.
+
+[14:47] Whereas, like, literally, you know, before I cut a steak, I'll pull out my stone and I'm like, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop, sop, sop, done. You know what I mean? Like, real fast for a touch-up. You know what I'm saying? And if you ever get into Japanese knives, you're gonna need to be good with hand sharpening because uh I mean, I s you just need to, you know, because they require they require more constant focus prior to every use.
+
+[15:10] And once you get good with the sharpening stone, you'll get in the habit of just doing like a light touch-up on the extra fine just before you use it every time. And that, and it's my opinion, probably maybe right, maybe wrong, it's my opinion that just that super light touch-up beforehand is helpful in maintaining kind of the longevity of of like a really nice uh edge. Yeah, so that's that was the other thing I was gonna ask, is like how frequently do you do the the full sort of sharpening routine? I mean, it really de really depends. If like some knucklehead picks up your knife and cuts into a you know cast iron pot, then you need to do that right now.
+
+[15:46] It's gonna take you a long time because you might have to take chips out of it. You know what I mean? Uh it mean a a lot a lot depends. Uh you know, my old butcher used to tell me never to put knives in a dishwasher, but uh he he was like afraid that the heat does something but I think it's more just the knife banging around in the dishwasher's reason not to do it. Um but you know and plus the handle's made of wood.
+
+[16:09] I'd like to hear some good arguments on not using a dishwasher on a modern knife as long as it was isolated so it wouldn't knock around. I'd like to hear the arguments. I don't know. Um what are you thinking of buying uh well so I bought a Mac an eight inch Mac uh chef Japanese style chef knife that's like a single bevel um and that's nice it's like very uh very limber very very fast you know yeah uh I used to have a Mac I had a Mac uh Petty and another Mac they were good I liked them yeah um and then I was I don't know I was thinking about just like the Wustof classic um for sort of a European style yeah I've never owned uh I've never owned a Wustoff I've owned a bunch of Henkles and I've owned uh I've owned some old school sabatiers I really liked you know I think again you should find it's the other my dad actually has an old like sabbatier slicer yeah uh that I wanna I was curious if it would be possible to rehab that that thing is like really beat up I found it in like a kitchen drawer in the back would I bought my 10 inch sabatier uh at a thrift store for three dollars I love that knife. Yeah and it came right back you could bring that thing back yeah because the steel the steel in those things is so easy to sharpen because it it rusts and everything but it's stuff is so easy to sharpen.
+
+[17:29] Those guys used to sharpen it with like the worst stones in the world. Think about it. You know what I mean? Like they don't maintain their edge. You have to sharpen them a lot, but they're very easy to sharpen.
+
+[17:38] Right. And I kind of like 'em you know what I mean? Yeah um I had one last thing. Oh, get a 10-inch knife. Okay.
+
+[17:46] You won't regret it. All right. Yeah. All right. Cool.
+
+[17:50] Cool. All right. Well, thanks as always for the help, man. Cool. Let us know how it works out.
+
+[17:55] We'll do. Cool. And you actually have another one online. Put them through right now. Sure, call her.
+
+[18:00] You're on the air. Oh, hey. Hey, great to be talking to you guys. How are you doing? Um, good, good, good.
+
+[18:08] Uh, hey, I found your uh show about uh three weeks ago, and uh kind of did a deep dive. Um I've been really into it, so thanks for what you guys made. And uh I got my girlfriend really into it, so now she talks to you about you guys like all the time. Nice. So she nostalgia women listen, women listen.
+
+[18:26] All right, go ahead. True. Um, so she got me uh liquid intelligence for my birthday last week. Oh, great. Happy birthday.
+
+[18:34] Uh it's been pretty fun. Oh, thank you. And uh so the the red hot poker thing is interesting to me. And uh you you say you won't sell me one, so first of all, how dare you? Um maybe you on will.
+
+[18:50] Um but if I if I were to try a uh a copper slug first, right? You you mention in the book that um that some drinks like it doesn't affect it, some it actually is kind of pleasant, and some it just makes it taste awful. That's correct. So are there like drinks you can recommend, or is there a like a systematic way to predict like based on like the content of the drink, like what what drinks like uh uh a uh a copper would be good for? Sure.
+
+[19:19] So put a piece of copper in your mouth and then drink, and you'll get kind of an an idea. Now you don't want to have copper in contact too long with acids in general, right? Because it'll form, you know, a certain amount of kind of toxic uh copper salts. But it's not really in contact with it that long and it's boiling so hard that I doubt you're even getting that much contact with meat, but just to get an idea, it tastes like you p like you're sucking on a like an old school penny. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:47] A little bit. So like with certain I've you know, I've had it taste okay in uh mold wines, you know, and Nils and I used to do like a Glug recipe where we'd throw the red hot poker in. I mean, the reason we don't make those red hot pokers is look, they're inherently freaking dangerous and even if it even if it wasn't for that, they burn out. You know what I mean? So like I'd sell someone and you know, Nastasi and I don't want to have to deal with, you know, when they break, us saying, Well, we told you they were gonna break.
+
+[20:15] You know what I mean? You wanna deal with that, Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah. Um so the copper.
+
+[20:21] What? Absolutely not. In fact, the last time I was in China or two times ago when I was in China, I spoke to someone about trying to manufacture one even for the bar because I I I had to go make 'em again. You know, for a while Piper was working with us and Piper would make them. Now that you know, Piper's hasn't been here for years, now I have to make them again.
+
+[20:44] I hate making them because it it's bor like making the making the fiftieth red hot poker is boring. I haven't learned anything new. Actually that's not true. I changed the recent batch a little bit. I just made 10 last week.
+
+[20:55] I was trying to figure out how to integrate 'em into the bar. So anyway, I spoke to someone in China about manufacturing it, but it was that thing that where they clearly didn't understand what I wanted and just like the I was just projecting months into the future of trying to tell somebody what I wanted, and then that person not really caring about my problem and like not really giving me what I wanted and that the level of like I I felt my I felt like months of Ajuta compressed into just 20 seconds of looking into this guy's eyes when I was at the at the trade show in China and I just said to myself nope. You know what I mean? I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it. You know I mean building stuff is a real freaking heartache.
+
+[21:35] Do you know what I mean, Nastasia? Yep it is it's a real heartache because you have to rely on so many people that don't think about it the way that you think about it. Anyways uh but so a copper slug can work. You better have a very very high output stove or put it on a high output stove and then hit it with a torch for a while too just to heat that slug up. And you're not gonna get ignition with it the way that you get with uh a red hot poker.
+
+[21:58] However you might be able to get an ignition if you have an open flame source next to it and you poke it with an extremely hot slug. I had not tested that what do you would I put the flame source like like direct it at it or it just like have it nearby. No if you like so if you stick the slug into the into the drink and then bring the at lip of the glass under and there's an open flame or sparker there it should light because you've superheated the alcohol vapor and it's gonna be coming out kind of violently and it it'll light up. But really like you should be careful um you know the only real injury we've ever had with a red hot poker was one of our bartenders years and years ago the glass blew up right that was the problem the glass blew up and uh just you know from the thermal shock because it's glass, you know what I mean? And uh it's only happened once, but then that shattered and it burnt his hand, and so then we made holders, so now the bartenders hold like a like a a handle and the glass is at the end of the handle, so even if the glass breaks, it doesn't like explode, it just goes down.
+
+[23:07] Um I freaked some people out with uh red hot poker failing. Uh remember when we used to have it at the at the French Culinary Institute, and those guys definitely did not want to do the red hot poker. And they they used to freak them out all the time. And they would occasionally, you know, I would say, what are the words we use, fail spectacularly. But um it's it's rare and uh you know uh the main thing when you're doing an electric red-hot poker with failure is the is conditioning it for first use.
+
+[23:35] Once you condition it for first use, it's pretty safe. Like most of the danger is if you don't condition it properly because it can overheat itself and blow out, but whatever. You know, I deal with it. Gotcha. Yeah.
+
+[23:48] What would the rocks be a better experiment then? I have not had good luck with the rocks, and the other problem with the rocks is is that the hot rocks then are sitting in your drink, right? So you throw the rock in, then you have a hot rock and a drink, and so now what? I mean the rock stays. It's cool, right?
+
+[24:03] Um I would try the the the copper slug, it's easy to buy and it's easy to try, so you can get an idea for it. Just let it heat for a long time. You could put like a little insulating blanket over the thing to kind of keep the heat in. Like you can get a very, very high temperature insulating blanket and just throw it over the poker when it's on the stove top, and that will uh excuse me, that will allow you to kind of heat it up to a dull red, which is kind of where you want to be, and then you can kind of get into the fun of playing with these uh with these drinks. But just be aware it'll have a little bit of a copper taste.
+
+[24:36] Awesome. Yeah, yeah. Can't wait for Christmas. Sound good. Yeah.
+
+[24:40] Today's program was brought to you by Le Crusade. The first to pioneer colorful enameled cookware over 90 years ago. They've been a favorite for generations through the meals and memories the cookware creates and the style it expresses. My name is Kat Johnson. I'm the communications director at Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[25:00] When I'm not making food radio, I'm making food, and my favorite cookware is the eight-quart marine blue Dutch oven that never leaves my stovetop. Before we got our Le Crusay, the cookware we used most often was an antique Griswold cast iron pan. It didn't take long for me to realize how much I'd been missing enamel cast iron in my life. Le Crusade has a superior heat retention of cast iron, but paired with the unparalleled performance and ease of enamel. That means delicious food with easy cleanup.
+
+[25:31] Head to Le Crusade.com slash H R N. That's L-E-C-R-E-U-S-E-T.com slash H R N to see all the new products and amazing holiday gift deals. HRN listeners will get 20% off the new Le Crusade cookbook with the code H R N. Hi, caller, you're on the air. Hello.
+
+[25:54] How you doing? I'm doing great, thanks. I had a quick juicing question for you. Oh great. Um I was wondering uh if you have any tips for juicing some more exotic fruits, specifically longans and ramboutans and mango steam.
+
+[26:06] Oh. Yeah. Uh so manga steam. Oh, so the the real question on like a manga steam, for instance, is I've never eaten the seeds, right? So I don't know.
+
+[26:19] I don't know if you were to like I don't know, A, I don't know what kind of technologies you have, and B, I don't know how much damage it will do to the juice to smash those seeds up and then try to get the stuff out later. You know what I mean? Um I know when we're doing stuff like Concorde Grapes, we don't blend the fruit or like do too intensive or hardcore of a juicing to it with a masticane juicer just because we'll release all of the astringent tannin out of the seeds and it ruins what is otherwise a delicious juice, right? So for things like that, or I have done other big seeded things in the past, uh, or things that don't want to be blended or juiced, uh what I will usually do is I will um just kind of knead them by hand with pectanex at ultra spl, and that breaks up the fruit, and then the seeds kind of drop out, and then you can puree and or filter and or do whatever you want with the with you know clarify or whatever you're gonna do to get the rest of the juice out. And I've done that with like strange, like like there's a Senegalese fruit called mod, which has a giant seed in it.
+
+[27:28] I've never done I've done Spanish limes, which is a mamancillo, which is kind of similar uh structure. Yeah, those are tough with the pit. Yeah, it the fruit is really stuck to it. Yeah. So but I've done them this way, where you're like throw them into a pot, you hit them with enzyme, and you just keep kneading them, uh, you know, or you know, tumbling them or beat them, and then the enzyme will eventually eat the fruit away from the pit without having the without chewing or destroying the pit.
+
+[27:56] Um and I might do a similar, I don't know what people do commercially. I should look this up for you could also try a press, but then you're you're still gonna be squashing those seeds flat. You know, I haven't started using our twenty ton press as a juicer yet, or la like last week, like I said, as a as a nut sack squasher. Uh-huh uh, like a like a Norwalk kind of setup. Yeah, yeah, but bigger.
+
+[28:18] We gotta s you know, squish giant nut sacks in our in our in our press. Um milk sacks. But the um yeah, but I don't know. I should I just think about it, but like I think if you even if you're not gonna use a spinzall or do anything like that, I think like hitting those with uh with an enzyme that breaks down uh pectin and hemicellulose is gonna be your first step to kind of getting those seeds off of there. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:42] Getting them out of there and like just getting the f the the fruit juice to liquefy. If that makes sense. Alright, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Um sweet, I appreciate it.
+
+[28:51] No problem. Let us know how it works, and I'll try to think about it more. Mangastines. I mean the thing about mangastine, where do you live? I'm in New York.
+
+[28:58] Oh yeah. I mean the mangastines here are garbage anyway, compared to like I mean, they're good, but like compared compared to like where they're actually growing mangastines. You ever like you ever bought a sack of mangastines directly from a place that grows mangustines? Oh yeah, off the back of a truck in in Thailand, it just doesn't get better than that. Right?
+
+[29:16] Right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean like once you've had that mangastine and you have like a New York City mangustine where it's been like frozen or shipped, you're just like, oh Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, but also it's like, I mean, decent, sure, but I mean like compared to like I think the thing is like people who have a mangastine here in New York City, right?
+
+[29:42] They taste it, they're like, that's a good fruit. That's good. You know what I mean? But if you go if you have a real one somewhere where they're actually growing those damn things and you have one fresh, you're like, holy crap! That is a great fruit.
+
+[29:55] You know what I mean? It's not like one of these. It's not like one of these mangastines are not a take it or leave it fruit. You know what I mean? Like they like when they're right.
+
+[30:04] You know what I mean? They're like they're they're top notch. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. Uh I wonder what would happen to the juice.
+
+[30:11] I wonder whether you'd lose you know what? I wonder whether they would taste good clarified. I've clarified lychee. I haven't liked it. Sweaty.
+
+[30:18] I don't like it. I don't like a lot. Sweaty. Sweaty. Something about lychee.
+
+[30:22] I love lychees, but something about like lychee things, like, I don't know, it's like kind of sweaty, something something animally sweaty. I don't like about it. Eh. I mean, I'm willing to be I'm willing to be con you know convinced not. But uh yeah, never been never been a giant fan of lychee things.
+
+[30:40] Lychee candies, because that's fake lychee. Those are good. You know what I mean? Lychee fruit delicious. Um I don't know.
+
+[30:49] Like uh what do you like lychee and stasia in general? What? Yes. But do you like canned lychees or those things? Sure.
+
+[30:56] I don't know. We're good. Yeah. She doesn't care. She doesn't care about anything anymore.
+
+[31:00] Alright, well, I'll give it a shot and I'll uh report back. Alrighty. Thank you. Two minutes. All I know is that's you saying that.
+
+[31:09] Matt didn't say that. After this. Oh, do we? Yeah. Because I haven't spent enough time.
+
+[31:13] I was on the phone all morning with with China. Yes. Okay. Uh tell people, and this is Nastasia talking, but somehow reason she's talking through me. Uh tell people to submit their Thanksgiving Sears all techniques to uh why don't you say it since you really wrote me, i.e.
+
+[31:29] you. Yeah, to my email. Right. And then you give the the you know how to film things. So tell them how to Thanksgiving Sears all techniques.
+
+[31:40] Send your videos to my email. Yeah, please film them horizontally so they can be formatted like a human being and not. No vertical. Yeah, a vertical, you're gonna become one of those persons where they're gonna be able to do that. I'm not gonna use it if it's vertical.
+
+[31:50] Yeah, where they have that background. I hate it. It's so foolish. I hate that. So foolish.
+
+[31:58] All right. Uh okay. This one send them all before the fourteenth. Alright, this question is from Pete from St. Pete, which I appreciate.
+
+[32:06] If I was my name was Peter and I was from St. Pete, I would be called Pete from St. Pete for sure. Hey dammer uh hey hammer dammer. Hey hammer, Dave and Posse.
+
+[32:14] I've been wanting to get a pressure cooker and did some research and found that the Instapot has come out or is coming out, uh with an electric pressure cooker that maintains fifteen PSI while cooking called the Instapot Max. Have you seen, played with or know anyone that has one of these? If it maintains fifteen PSI, we'll cover all of my bases that you said are problems with most electric pressure cookers. Uh or i is it self venting, which is another big knock against it. I'll admit I like the ease of use of just hitting a button and letting it go, but I do plan to get an induction burner soon.
+
+[32:42] I was wondering if I actually just get to Kuhn Recon. Thanks for the time, love the show. Hundred and uh fifty he's a hundred and fifty episodes through the backlog. Oh Jesus. Uh okay, so um uh the answer is I don't know.
+
+[32:53] I've looked into uh the reviews of the Instapot uh Max are not so good because the price is higher and they say it actually takes longer to cook. Uh and what that I'm assuming means is it takes longer to heat up and then longer to cool down. I'm not usually using a pressure cooker just for speed, so that's not a problem for me. Uh I want the you know, I want that kind of higher pressure and absolute amount of time to get to temperature and to get down isn't that important. But most people on the internet's um uh have an issue uh with it compared to the cheaper ones just because they thought it was gonna be a whole lot faster because they had equated the higher pressure with faster cooking.
+
+[33:33] And while it is true that uh things will cook through faster at once you reach that temperature, it will also take longer for it to come back down uh you know off of pressure because of the extra pressure. Uh and I don't know how their heating element works, it might not, you know, uh heat heat as quickly. But that said, there are a lot of things that I really think 15 PSI is better for. There are things where you can do a lower PSI and just cook a lot longer. Um I haven't done like all of the tests, but I know at the bar, because people you know can't be trusted to maintain a pressure cooker, uh, they you know, we use an electric one and we just cook it longer to do our dulce to coconut.
+
+[34:13] Uh I haven't tested it with Hamine eggs just because we're not using those at the bar right now. So uh I I don't know. All I'm saying and I haven't personally personally used one. The one thing I will note is they is that one of the reviewers, it took it a preposterous amount of time for it to to cool down uh using the natural release method. So I'd want to make sure that there was something you could do to not have it take quite so long to do its natural release.
+
+[34:36] Anyways, sorry I couldn't be more of help uh more help. Uh that's it. Well, we have it's real quick. Real quick. Real quick for you is four minutes.
+
+[34:43] Shut up, shut up, shut up. Uh hey, Anastasia, Dave, Booth Boys, anyone else? It's Steven and Bed Sty. It's local. Bedsty.
+
+[34:50] Love the show. It's my daily subway listening. You've led me to further cultivate and pursue my own curiosities in the kitchen. Question. You went over debone rolled turkey somewhere around episode 150, but I couldn't find it.
+
+[35:00] I've deboned and rolled whole chicken a la Jacques Pepin. Jacques a papin. Are there any major differences when boning out and rolling a turkey? I'm thinking 10 pounds with bones. I have no circulator, but do have a pressure cooker, electric uh oven and convection oven.
+
+[35:12] Uh, and then you had question two, which I don't have time for, any ideas for stuffing. I'm thinking sausage, homemade bread and lots of spices. Sounds good. Don't forget egg, uh, egg sausage. I like to throw mushrooms in.
+
+[35:21] And I was told mandarin orange slices are bad, but I love them because that's what I grew up listening. On deboning a turkey. The main differences are they're usually bigger. They're usually frozen. You really want to thaw it.
+
+[35:31] You really it's very easy to lose track of where your fingers are in a semi-frozen bird when your hands get real cold, and that's kind of when you get sliced. Inside out rolling boning, where you don't cut the meat is a lot more difficult in a turkey because of its side, but if you're just gonna do it where you cut down the back and open it, Jacques Popin style, it's not that much more difficult than doing uh a chicken. The only thing that's uh harder is popping the joints is more difficult, like when you're popping the joints out to break them out because the joints are stronger because they're bigger. The main difference, and the thing where you're really gonna have trouble, is uh the tendons in turkeys are ridiculous in the legs and very hard. So you're gonna lose a lot more meat if you're ripping out the bones in the legs versus uh chicken where the tendons are a lot easier to remove.
+
+[36:16] So the tendons are the big thing, and Nastasi tells me I don't have time to talk to you about how they used to have a machine that can rip the tendons out and why they don't bring that back. But it's important we can talk about it later next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[36:50] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[37:16] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This program is brought to you by Jewel, souvieed by Chef Steps. Jewel takes the guesswork out of cooking. Learn more at ChefSteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:22] Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network, extremely late today because we had a we had our weekly China call, which we can't do on Tuesdays anymore, Nastasia. Our weekly call.
+
+[0:56] I know to okay, to be more precise, to our team in China. We are not calling the entire country China. Yeah. For a Burst Pizza Rien, Bushwick Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:10] How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah. We got Matt in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[1:13] I'm doing great. Yep. Call in your questions, but make them brief because we only have like whatever today. It's gonna be a quick one. 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:22] That's 718-497-2128. So uh after the radio program today, Nastasio, we need to do some Bob's red mill talking. Specifically, they want me to talk about amaranth flour and sorghum flour. But you know what I'm super sick of in general? I'm sure Nastasi, I'm sure you hate this as well.
+
+[1:42] Doing ads. Oh, no, I mean like whatever. Gotta pay the bill. I don't know why we gotta pay the bills, honestly, but we have to pay the bills. But uh no, but like when someone gives you a recipe for like a gluten-free flour, what do they always freaking say?
+
+[1:54] What's the thing they always say? It tastes just like regular flour. No, and they never say that because it's untrue. What do they say? Matter, do you pay attention to the world?
+
+[2:02] Nastasia clearly doesn't. No, no, I'm on her level. It's like she's not even in the food business. It's crazy. Although I have to say, Nastasia, okay, so we were on this call.
+
+[2:13] Uh well, that's not what I heard this morning on the telephone. That's an employee. Because yeah, so he's not people. So Nastasia, first of all, Nastasia calls into this call with China, which is by the way, hard enough to hear because they're connecting on Skype, and like I don't know whether the you know Chinese mainland government isn't slick enough to not like when they're listening in on whatever our engineer is saying, like his connection is the worst connection in the in the universe constantly. We can never hear what he's saying ever.
+
+[2:40] Nastasia, meanwhile, is on speakerphone in the middle of a New York City street because she's walking to Pasta Flyer. Whatever. Because you didn't want them to hear, they might stay right there. Oh Jesus. Yeah, I know.
+
+[2:52] So then she shows up and she starts yelling at her employee like worse than I yell at my kids when it's like the same F up they've done everything. She's like Well, the thing is is that he's mopping in the dark. Mopping the restaurant in front of house in the dark. He does it by feel. No, and then I'm like, hey, person's name, person's name.
+
+[3:17] He has his headphones on so loud he cannot hear me, so that just raises my anger level. Yeah, yeah. Of course, as far as he knows, he's there alone. So why wouldn't he? Mopping in the dark.
+
+[3:28] The dark issue. No, no, no. I walked in and I was like, hey, and then I sat down to do the call, and then I was like, it's dark. Yeah, but the the tone of voice Nastasia used. Like, honestly, if I was that dude, I would have been like, This lady wants me to quit.
+
+[3:44] I'm gonna quit right now. Oh my god, Nastasia. Nastasia should have been arrested for what she said to UPS. Yeah. Like, honestly, you're not allowed to physically threaten people.
+
+[3:56] Although, good news, uh, Amazon is gonna have three headquarters, not just two. So there's so like they're gonna have their Seattle headquarters or wherever in the hell they are. And then remember they were gonna have their countrywide search for where they were gonna put their second headquarters? Well, they decided to do two one outside of Virginia and one Nastasia in Long Island City. So now you can physically go over there and and choke out somebody at Amazon.
+
+[4:21] People, here's like a good health tip. Like, do not do business with Nastasia and then move within choking range. She will find you. I honestly I can't believe that you weren't that you weren't like that. No police showed up at your door after the threats you made to the UPS.
+
+[4:37] That's the first time I felt bad about things I said. Uh I believe you have a caller. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's uh J from Alden again. How you doing?
+
+[4:49] I'm good. So um I picked up uh a cooking around the world series that you and I don't know. The time life one, the one from uh like the early 70s. Yeah, great, great, right? Yeah, I've read like 10 uh 10 of the volumes, but uh right now I'm making the FEMA beverage, like some lemon flavored mead from Scandinavia.
+
+[5:16] Oh, okay. Yeah, you never made it, right? No, no. Basically, it's just lemon, sugar, and active dry yeast. Okay, but so it's sugar, so it's not a mead, it's like it's got Yeah, I know.
+
+[5:32] And it's like why? Why does I say mead? But next time I might use honey. Yeah. Although we should get that mead guy back on from Enlightenment Wines.
+
+[5:43] I mean, the thing is that obviously if it's Scandinavian back in the you ever read Beowulf? There's mead all up and down in Beowulf. It's all everywhere. The mead bench is. Oh, but like I've read other things.
+
+[5:54] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you you would have no idea how much AVV will turn out to be. Oh, that's an easy calculation to do.
+
+[6:02] Uh if you're using white sugar, I don't happen to know it off the top of my head. Yeah. But you can just look up uh, you know, bricks to uh potential alcohol, and then you can just convert the uh the sugar to potential alcohol because this is the thing the brewers worry about constantly. So, or anyone that is doping in sugar. I just again I just don't happen to have it off the top of my head.
+
+[6:24] I know that the when I ferment orange juice, I ferment pretty much uh I have to add sugar to it, and it starts out at around eleven bricks, so eleven percent sugar by weight, and I have to add sugar to it. So it's not one to one. So if you want, let's say eight percent alcohol, you're gonna need more than eight percent sugar. I think, but again, it's been a long time since I run the calculations, but they that's an easily knowable thing on any one of the brewer's uh sites, bricks to uh potential alcohol scales, what they call it, because they don't know if you're gonna ferment dry or not. So obviously any residual sugar that you leave is is potential alcohol that you didn't convert.
+
+[7:07] Okay, yeah. So what I'm doing right now is lemon. I was thinking about other varieties once I get started. And well, probably using citrus would be like pretty much. Orange is good.
+
+[7:14] I mean, the good thing about orange is the residual acidity that's in orange juice is nice. And the residual it's clear, I use clarified, of course. I've never tried unclarified. And the residual bitterness that's in clarified orange juice is nice once it's fermented dry. It doesn't tend to last, so you can't, you know, the flavor of it I didn't like as much when it been aged for you know three, four months as when it was, you know, fresh or on the order of like a couple of weeks old after the initial primary is done.
+
+[7:49] Um I mean the the one problem if you haven't done a lot of fermenting before is you'll probably have a tendency to make it too acidic on the beginning. Uh and then once it ferments dead dry, it's going to be extraordinarily tart because the sugar will be gone. Unless you don't ferment it dead dry. You could do a partial fermentation, in which case residual acidity is more your friend. Um if that makes sense.
+
+[8:15] By fermenting it dead dry, like I you know, this is the first time I'm making any sort of alcoholic beverage. What do you mean? Well, so like the sugar that's in there, right? It as you convert it to alcohol, then it there won't be any more that that sugar will be gone away. So, you know, uh like when I do ciders and and and other things, I tend to try to ferment almost all of the sugar away.
+
+[8:41] Other people, uh for instance, there's techniques in cider making called keeving, and there's all sorts of techniques to try to stop the fermentation uh at you know at some point mid cycle so that so that some there's residual sugar. But um, you know, and sometimes things will just get stuck, so there'll be a lot of residual sugar, like if the fermentation will just end for you know a number of reasons. The yeast is inhibited by something or in fact, honey, a lot of like a lot of mead, uh, you know, first-time mead makers will have problems with their distillation. It's called getting stuck. Uh, and so you'll end up with a higher, you know, proportion of sugar and less therefore alcohol.
+
+[9:19] But if you are gonna ferment something until it is completely dry, so it's all the sugar is gone, then just have to take into account the fact that you know uh the acidity will taste uh you know double more you know much more present than than you might expect. Okay. Yeah. Okay, uh another quick question. What's your best recommendation as to an inexpensive meat grinder?
+
+[9:47] Ooh, I don't have a I don't have a good one. I have the KitchenAid one and I don't really like it. I hate it. Right? Some people buy that yeah, I want made uh moranella with it.
+
+[9:59] Uh yeah, it's no good. Never doing that again. Yeah. Some people uh use that uh, I believe it would it's check, I think, that like one that was built, the old one, the the hand grinder that's you know, uh like a casting. Uh but you know, I don't have any good luck with it.
+
+[10:15] I should research uh inexpensive grinders. I don't have meat a lot. I mean, I just deal with garbage. I mean, like I don't have in other words, the stuff that I do when I grind it, I just don't like it. I just think it's low, low quality.
+
+[10:30] The only thing you're using is the kitchen aid attachment. Yeah, it's garbage. It's just wretched. Okay, all right. So you have to cut them, you know, like the thing with the kitchen aid attachment is it smears so easily, so you have to like uh cut things into into long strips.
+
+[10:43] I mean, everyone that owns a real grinder loves it. Uh people like so I've used, for instance, the inexpensive sausage stuffers from places like Grizzly, right? Which is on you know, a catalog. And it works fine. It's not as well put together as the more professional ones.
+
+[10:59] Like the welds are really crappy and the grinds on the welds are really crappy, so presumably it's more difficult to sanitize. Uh they also have relatively inexpensive grinders that may be good. I just don't have any personal experience with it. What's the brand name? Well, like a catalog that sells that stuff is kind of is Grizzly.
+
+[11:18] The r G R I Z Z L Y like they're mainly a tool company, but they also cater to hunters, right? And uh and so hunters have to process a lot of sausage, so they have sausage or don't have to, but they do. So they have things like sausage stuffers and meat grinders, and they tend to be cheaper than Bass Pro, which also sells these things, or Cabela's, which also sells these things. So, you know, um, like uh once it's being sold into a professional kitchen, the prices go way up, but when it's sold to a hobbyist or a hunter or something like this who still has the need for professional grinding abilities, the price can come way down. Now the quality probably also comes down, but if you're not using it every day in service, then it's probably not, you know, not that big of a deal.
+
+[12:03] But you know, I doubt you're gonna have anything that's gonna, you know, rival like the you know, the butt-kicking Hobarts that uh you know we had back at the school. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, thanks a lot.
+
+[12:16] All right, well, if you have if you have any good experience, tweet it over to me. Let me know, uh let me know what you get. Yeah, tell me how your stuff is. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, look if you're doing a small amounts, you can get away with almost anything, you know?
+
+[12:32] Anyway, good luck with it. This program is brought to you by Jewel Sous vide. My name is Katie Moseman Waddler. I'm the executive director of HRN and a real life Jewel user. I use Jewel to help me host the most delicious dinner parties.
+
+[12:58] When you cook with Jewel, there's zero guesswork. So steak, chicken, seafood, turkey, vegetables, and eggs all come out exactly the way you like them. The paired app is super intuitive and has a great visual dentist guide. Jewel is awesome for prepping many perfect portions, making it easy to cook for a crowd, and it's hands-free so you can focus on entertaining while Jewel does the work. And pro tip, Jewel is also great for travel.
+
+[13:24] I throw mine in my suitcase if I'm headed to a rental house with any kind of uncertain kitchen. From perfect steak to juicy, tender Thanksgiving turkey, Jewel makes the best food you've ever tasted. Just be sure to save some room for mini jars of pumpkin pie. Jewel, perfect food every time. To get yours, visit Chef Steps.com slash Jewel and use code H R N as in Heritage Radio Network to get $15 off for a limited time.
+
+[13:51] That's Chef Steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Code H R N. Uh Dave, we got another question from the internet. Oh, what is it? It says, Hello, Nastasia and Dave.
+
+[14:02] This is from Sam in Chicago. Uh love the show. Looking for an alternative to the Sous vide turkey this year. You mentioned a method where you spatchcock the bird, lay it over a pile of stuffing, and blast it in a hot oven. I've listened to every episode, and I can't remember if it was a new one or an old one.
+
+[14:16] I can't find this spec. Would you mind going over this again? Sure. So you can do, depending on how much you take out, you're gonna speed up the cooking uh more or less. But if you're willing, see, the thing about it is is you can make something that looks relatively bird-shaped.
+
+[14:32] The thing that I don't like about a lot of like the classic kind of roulade things is they don't end up looking like birds, which is okay if you're a French person, but not okay if you're doing an American kind of uh a Thanksgiving. So what you can do is just cut along the backbone, and you can cut along the backbone kind of on either side and rip it out, and then you can even rip out some of the uh you can rip out you know the the internal carcass of the of the bird there. It's a lot easier than doing, for instance, when I use was doing the turkey where I'd have to put the exoskeleton in, I would have to do what's called inside out boning, where you'd roll the bird apart and remove the skeleton without making a cut in the meat at all. And that takes a long time on a turkey, a lot longer than it does on a smaller bird like a quail. Especially if you have Nastasia Lopez sitting next to you pestering you about how long it's taken.
+
+[15:21] Remember how mean you were to me, Nastasia? She's like, it's taking you a long time, Dave. Taking you a long time on like a freaking frozen freaking turkey trying to inside out bone it so it looks good on TV. And Nastasia is doing nothing but sitting there. Nastasia is very good at sitting there and pushing your buttons while you have a sharp knife in your hand.
+
+[15:38] She's the worst. Worst. Uh anyways, so this is much easier. You just cut out the backbone and then like kind of pry it open, snap the joints at the at the lay, uh, you know, at the legs and at the wings, rip out those bones. You can take out, you know, uh you can leave the rest of the bones in, really.
+
+[15:57] But then so you have those bones now, you can roast them off and make a uh a gravy with them, which is what I would do. So then you make a stuffing shaped uh kind of mound. I mean, sorry, uh a bird cavity shaped mound on uh you know, on a tray or whatever, and then you roast that or cook it. Or uh what I typically do is I'll make a like a bag and I'll make like a plug, like sous vide almost of that, and I'll cook the stuffing as its own kind of thing, like a football. And then I'll have it hot, really hot, like you know, hot, uh like you know, steaming temperature.
+
+[16:34] And then you'll have your bird, and because you've taken all the bones out, it's gonna most of the bones out, it's gonna cook relatively quickly. Also, the stuffing is already at cooking temperature, so you don't need to get it hot, it's already hot and it's already been made safe. Then you can drape the bird over the stuffing in the shape of a bird. By the way, you can also have brined it already, injected brine into the breast and whatnot, and you can drape it and dried it if you want. You should dry the skin, drape it over the stuffing, and it cooks relatively uh quickly, not as quickly as like the actual flat pressed spatchcock against a sheet tray, which is the absolute fastest way to cook it, but it's again, then it's gonna look like a flat turkey and not like uh turkey turkey for Thanksgiving.
+
+[17:17] Does that make any sense? All right. Uh oh, the internets, the internets. All right, uh, let's get to the questions that were written in. Uh this is from uh Gaz Herbert.
+
+[17:28] Uh I am writing after having done some research on peppercorn infusions, for which there seems to be little material online, especially in the gastronomic applications I'm interested in. It occurred to me uh that you may know about this stuff after reading through uh liquid intelligence. I mean, I have a pepper infusion in the in the book, Nastasia. Not that Nastassi. I remember it.
+
+[17:44] You remember me making it, you've never opened the book once. I mean, I don't know. Did you ever the paper itself is not useful as toilet paper or as a cleanup? You re oh, you you looked to see whether I had thanked you or not, and that was it. So she's opened the first three pages.
+
+[18:03] Miracle. Um I love your use of interesting spices uh and relate to your perfectionism here at Ikoyi, a West African fine dining restaurant in London. Uh my question is when it comes to infusing peppercorns and spices in non-alcoholic solutions, such as milk or water, what is the ideal temperature and time for infusion, and what scientifically speaking are the consequences of going above or below this temperature slash time? Take as an example peppercorns, cloves, and star anus, which by the way, our friend Lian Wong has said was her porn star name, which is amazing, right? Star Anis?
+
+[18:36] No, she said it would be Star Anus. Well, you just m just mispronouncing Anis, well, aren't you? We had another woman at the French culinary who used to mispronounce something in a horrifying way. I can't say it online. I mean, uh, but like literally whenever she opened her mouth and said these words, Nastasia and I were like, that's just if she would travel to a certain country.
+
+[18:57] Yeah, yeah. But mispronounce it in the most horrible way, and like, and like it was like it was like, you know, when you see the shock waves and you see the skin like in slow-mo, and like the cheeks are like getting flapped over, like when they do those explosion slow-mo. Yeah, yeah. It was like that. Nastassian was like, ah.
+
+[19:18] Anyway. Uh yeah, yeah. Starrinus. Uh, where are we? Where are we?
+
+[19:23] Where are we? Uh infusing into milk. Would 90 degrees a centigrade for two hours be too high, too long? Uh, all the best. So look, a lot depends.
+
+[19:31] Let me tell you what the variables are. First of all, milk, whole milk, by the way, or as my grandpa liked to say like to say, milk, because he did not admit that skim milk was in fact milk. Um he lived to be 98. So there you have it. Uh although that's such a dumb argument.
+
+[19:47] I hate people who make arguments with like an N of one. So there I are. Self-hate, right? Anyway, whatever. Um so the point being that milk is a good choice because it has some fat, and a lot of these spices, especially um uh specifically black pepper, the the actual nice flavors in it, like uh peperine and all the other uh all the other good kind of uh aromatic volatile stuff, not extremely soluble in water, which is why and also it's volatile stuff.
+
+[20:14] So Jeffrey Steingarden, you know, our friend Jeffrey Steingarden, who by the way, all the younger people out there, if you haven't read The Man Who Ate Everything, you should go ahead and read that. Seminal, seminal book in its subject and you know, very early person of that kind of kind. And uh, you know, kind of a curmudgeon and uh, you know, more than kind of a curmudgeon. Yeah, yeah, and the and the worst, best and worst. Love myself some Jeffrey Steingarten.
+
+[20:37] Anyways, um point being uh he was like, Dave, why do you add pepper early on in he used to he would call me, he would literally he would just call Nastasia and me and just yell at us for our practices, even though he had like we we would not have seen him in like a year, and he would just call us and start yelling at us, right? Nastasia? Yeah, we'd see the number come up on our phone and be like, it's your turn. Yeah, yeah, because we knew that it was gonna be like eight hours of him yelling at us about X, Y, or Z. He's like, Dave, why do you add pepper early on in cooking?
+
+[21:07] All that's left at the end is the bitterness and none of the great aromatics. Why don't you add it at the end? And I was like, Jeffrey, I like those bitter notes. Why can't I add it two times? He had no response, right?
+
+[21:18] So the problem with pepper is one, a lot of, especially in things like soups, is a lot of those like awesome aromatic compounds are one volatile and two uh not super soluble in water. They should be more soluble in the fat in the butter fat that's in milk, I think, right? So then there's there's two things that are going on. There's loss of volatiles because the stuff's boil like literally evaporating, right? Uh there's uh loss of volatiles because it's also just not infusing into whatever liquid you're using.
+
+[21:47] And then there's the actual destruction of the uh of those uh flavors and aromas due to the heat. So you you know you have to separate some of these things. So in a sealed system where there's no air, right? It might be possible to have a higher temperature, and because you're not volatilizing anything, because it's sealed, maybe it's possible to keep those uh things uh in solution if they actually want to dissolve into it, right? So you might run into a situation there where it's good.
+
+[22:15] So 90 degrees C in milk in the on a stove top, you probably will have evaporated a lot of those volatiles and they won't be there, right? So I read a study that even just your grinding temperature that you use, right? With your if you you know refriger you grind refrigerated or frozen pepper with dry ice, black pepper, versus grinding it at a higher temperature because of the friction of grinding, like let's say 40, 50, 50 degrees Celsius, results in a huge loss in the volatile components, presumably to the atmosphere, because you can smell them, right? Not presumably due to autolysis where the stuff is breaking itself apart. So I think, in other words, it might be possible in a sealed container to get a decent uh higher temperature extraction of pepper, but I don't know for sure.
+
+[22:59] You'd have to run some tests. The other thing you could do is try to do infusions under high pressure at lower temperatures, even in the milk, in something like an easy under you know, high pressure, like you know, 10 bar or so, 10, 11 bar, something uh there, right? Um and then you could do a side by side with it with heat. But that's the whole thing. It's like doing the side by sides and kind of seeing what uh what you get.
+
+[23:24] Not yet, we don't see it. Yeah, we do. We we still have nine minutes. They have a show at one, and you have to record a couple of things. Cat's not even here yet, it's right there.
+
+[23:31] It's right here, and you do need to record those ads. All right, one thing I'll say before we go on. Uh Nick wrote in and asked for the spec on the vodka cranustino. Uh it is, I believe, five to one cranberry, fresh cranberry to uh vodka. It might be four to one, but I believe it's five to one.
+
+[23:48] Uh, and then just blend it with uh SPL, uh spin it out. Uh the buttered popcorn rum is literally just you know, pour like pop air pop some popcorn, pour the rum over it. Um, you know, I think it's uh uh you know it's a you know it's a lot. If we just do it, let it sit there for like two, three hours, strain it off, press the hell out of it, melt butter, keep the butter, uh, you know, stir it in. It doesn't take that much butter, frankly.
+
+[24:15] I don't have the numbers off the top of my head. Uh stir it, let it stay liquid with like uh what's it called? Uh immersion circulator uh for overnight covered so you're not losing anything, and then uh freeze it and strain it off. Uh and then uh someone was gonna try to make activated charcoal with uh rye bread, uh, but I don't think it's gonna work. And I'll talk more about it next week, Kevin.
+
+[24:39] But um, activated charcoal is very difficult to make, and I would look at the books there are uh online uh on activated charcoal, how different and complicated it is from just plain charcoal. And once you turn into charcoal, it won't taste like rye bread anymore unless it's just something you really want to do. Now, on to Bob's red mill, because what we started to talk about at the beginning of the show we never finished. And can we just bleed this into the uh ads, Matt? Or no?
+
+[25:04] No. But anyway, what I was gonna try to get Nastasia to say that I hate is when people are like, you could just add it to pancakes or muffins. Anytime someone has a gluten-free flour, they're like, just make we pancakes, muffins, cookies. You know what I'm saying? Yes.
+
+[25:20] It's irritating. Because, like, obviously, you know, I do that all the time. I add oats to my pancakes and all that, but it's not interesting. So I've been trying to work with these products to try to see if I can make something that is interesting. But anyway, I have not 100% successful yet, but I have run a lot of tests.
+
+[25:36] I was working on a scrapple, a sorghum-based uh scrapple, sorghum-based biscuits, and Joar roti uh stuff. But anyway, so we'll talk about it later. More next week. I gotta record some ads, make some money, Bob's Red Mill, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[26:04] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[26:29] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bobsredmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues25 for 25% off your order. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from, you know, I don't know. Sometime after 12 to like about one. Especially Nastasi has to leave on the button today because uh joined as usual with Mistasi de Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[0:42] She's uh flying off to uh her native land to LA today. For 24 hours. Sounds fun. Visiting pasta after pasta place in in LA. Yeah, nice.
+
+[0:53] We got uh we got Kat today. How are you doing? I'm good, how are you? You're gonna well we'll give you your pitch in a second. We gotta do this is our NPR version of a pitch for money.
+
+[1:01] We got Matt in the booth. Hello, hello. And in a minute, we're gonna have, I hope. We had he called before, but I guess he doesn't know how late we normally run. Uh Dave David Zilber, who uh is the co-author of the NOMA guide to fermentation, and we're gonna talk fermentation in a minute.
+
+[1:17] Uh but while we're waiting, Kat, why don't you give your pitch? So this Monday, December 3rd at 6 PM is our annual fundraising gallery gallery. I've been in Alabama for a week, don't judge me. Uh Fundraising Gallop. Winter in the Garden.
+
+[1:32] It is at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, the Palm House, the really pretty glass house. Um we're gonna have a great lineup of chefs. Dave's gonna be making cocktails as well as Southern Sky. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm gonna be making I'm kidding, I know I'm gonna be making cocktails. Wait, what do you mean?
+
+[1:45] Um Damon Bolte, Southern Teague are also gonna be slinging cocktails. We're super excited. Tickets are still available. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org. Tickets are one thirty five general admission, two twenty-five VIP.
+
+[1:59] VIP gets you in an hour early. You get an hour more cocktails. You get VIP bites that only VIP people are gonna get. It's because you're jaded. Remember that?
+
+[2:15] Were you there for the Justin Timberlake VIP thing that we did when he launched his tequila brand, or was that before you started working with me? No, I was there. Remember? But he wasn't there. He was.
+
+[2:24] Really? But he wasn't in the VIP section because he didn't want to hang out because the VIPs at like an event like that aren't the real VIPs. The re the real VIPs are on their own platform in the club, looking down at the rest of the of the of the plebes. You know what I mean? They don't want to be in a separate back room with like the with like the tier C and D V IPs.
+
+[2:45] They want to be untouched by the the throngs and yet see the throngs. Right? Speaking of tier A VIPs, Dave. Yeah. I've got a friend on the phone.
+
+[2:55] Oh nice. Got uh David, you there? Hello. Hey, how you doing? Wait, where are you now?
+
+[3:00] Are you in Copenhagen right now? I am in Copenhagen. I'm in the greenhouse, which is my little my little uh my vegetable getaway. Oh nice. I thank them.
+
+[3:11] Nice. Do you know I've I have not been in Copenhagen for more than an hour and a half in my life. That's unfortunate because there's more than an hour and a half worth of stuff to see here. I'm sure I saw mainly the train station. Like I went from the airplane to the train station.
+
+[3:28] Now, this comes to another part of my life where I only go on trips uh basically for business, and absolute vodka was like, you know what you need to do? You don't need to go to Copenhagen, no one needs that. You need to go to Skona. So, you know, uh Yeah, you you need to come to the south of Sweden and see nothing. Hey except an absolute vodka factory.
+
+[3:49] Wheat. No, my girl, my girlfriend's from Skona. Yeah. So I've I've been I've been to that town. Yeah, well, I mean it's quaint.
+
+[3:56] I mean Skona's the kind of place people are from, right? Yeah, exactly. It's not the kind of place people have moved to. It's the kind of place. It's not like California where people go to California.
+
+[4:06] It's like where people are from. Now, you're actually from you're you're from Toronto, right? I am Torontonian, yeah. Toronto is a place people go to, not necessarily a place people are from. So is it j in your in the in the your intro or somewhere I read, oh no, it was in uh some in uh interview with you.
+
+[4:25] You literally to go to NOMA, you sent out a bunch of resumes to like the three places you wanted to go, and your first bite was in Noma, and that's how you ended up in Copenhagen, huh? Yeah, that is. That is. Uh Grand Akits wasn't so interested in me at the time. I think you'll find that no one's interested in.
+
+[4:43] That's the thing. No one's interested in you until you know something. It's one of the kind of like crappy parts about life. You know what I mean? It's kind of depressing.
+
+[4:52] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure enough. So you know I'm glad Noma scooped me up.
+
+[4:58] So you just came out, by the way, because people are gonna want to call in, I'm sure. You just uh recently came out uh with uh the Noma Guide to Fermentation. Now, I know you know Ari Ariel's good friend of the show, Ariel Johnson. She they did a s uh, you know, another guy guy to fermentation years ago, but this one is it's very different. It's much more kind of I mean this in in a good way, mass market kind of, you know, bigger, shot differently on kind of a a different scale.
+
+[5:24] But did you overlap with Ariel at all or no? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She taught me lots of what I know. Yeah, Ariel is a smart lady. I love Ariel.
+
+[5:33] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So do I. Um I d it it's funny 'cause I think of her as like big fist, even though I am older than her. But um no, she she taught me so much when I first got into the lab and really really kind of helped me get my feet on the ground in there.
+
+[5:51] Um her and Lars. And so we worked together for may maybe about a year before she moved on. Um and same with Lars Williams. No, but uh it w it it was amazing to work with them and to see what they did and then and then to be handed the Rams and kind of build a new lab and get to write the book. And so Yeah it was it was a big torch to be fast.
+
+[6:12] Nice. So I uh by the way, call in your uh fermentation or your NOMA, whatever. You got your Nordic related questions, maybe I guess your Toronto related questions, your fermentation related questions, your writing a book related questions. Two seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight that's seven one eight four nine seven two one two eight. Uh but uh Matt I'm assuming we don't have anyone on the phone yet, right?
+
+[6:34] No. Okay. So I'm gonna say some things first uh 'cause I did as I say read the book in its entirety. Um what I like about the book, and I this has to be a conscious choice uh that you know that you made is the kind of you know you can do it to channel Rob Schneider, but the you can do it kind of attitude you have in the in the in the book, it's you know very uh you know it's very much with this tone that you know, you can get her done. You know what I mean?
+
+[7:03] Yeah. But that that was exactly the point. I mean, it wasn't uh you know, when we're when we first set out to write this book, and and Renee was like, okay, this is this is what we're striving for. Uh it you you can't just write an esoteric, you know, tome of clues. We couldn't include recipes with centrifuges and rotovaps and and ultrasonic homogenizers.
+
+[7:24] We just wouldn't I mean it's pretty to look at and it's but it's not about impressing people, it's it's about empowering people. So uh I really uh a lot of the work was just dumbing down what we did at Nelma. And and not in a negative sense, but being like, okay, if you had nothing and you will you still wanted to make this butter emulsion, what would you have to do? And then you just McGiver it until you you know, it it it makes sense. Um and and the best part about this is that Martha Holmberg, who's uh a really amazing cookbook author herself, was a recipe tester for all this.
+
+[7:57] So I actually flew out to Portland uh quite early on in the book's process to actually like once as soon as the recipes were graphics, just do this with her and then basically go through the entire process of what Noma did, you know, very early on as we were figuring this stuff out and going to the local hardware store in the local cookshop to actually like build build all these incubators and stuff in her apartment. So just to prove it could be done. And that's one of my favorite things. You're like, here's a speed rack, here's the plastic thing, and you like you know, build all the stuff, which is I think, you know, I think that's the kind of thing people, even though look, you can get all that stuff on the here's what you can't get off the internet, people. Like what you can't get, I mean you can, I guess, but the nice thing about a book is a book when you're writing for the internet, yes, it's a good place to put up a a DIY, how to build uh, you know, a fermenting chamber, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[8:47] But um there's something about writing a book and trying to turn something into a coherent large format document that just forces the writer into a mental space and a kind of if they do a good job, but a level of rigor that you don't get writing on the internet. You know what I mean? So I think it's a useful thing. And I think books, it's one of the reasons I think books still have a place. What do you think?
+
+[9:14] Yeah, absolutely. It it really forces you to, you know, to like go through the fine-tooth comb. Yeah. And uh blog posts, like you said, they're one thing. You know, it's and that's the thing is they're self-published.
+
+[9:24] There's no I I don't mean to say it, but there's like there's no stakes. You can put something up. If it doesn't work, oh well, it gets buried in the history of your archives or whatever. But with a book, you know, there's there is a pressure, especially, you know, coming from us, it had to be it it had to do what it needed to do extremely well. Um and and uh yeah, you just put yourself into that mindset and that's from the ground up, kind of uh you know, empathize with someone who's like got a team of three cooks in a bistro and you're I really want to do this, but how?
+
+[9:55] And and you just have to put yourself into their shoes and and make it make sense to them. Yeah. You know, that you take it for granted that we have this like huge space and these amazing uh incubators and and you know thousand dollar humidity systems and all this stuff, but at the end of the day, it's about doing it for for the little guy, I guess. And so for people who haven't seen the book, it's kind of organized by style of ferment. So it goes like you know, lacto ferments, kombucha, uh vinegar, koji, miso, you know, koji in general, miso, shoyu, garum, which uh uh and black fruits and vegetables, and uh which is you know like black garlic, etc.
+
+[10:34] etc. So uh until people call I have some questions actually on the uh Dave, I believe we have a caller on who has a black garlic question. Uh well, all right. Well, so I'm gonna call her you're on the air, but while we're doing this, I'm gonna see in case this question overlaps, uh, we'll we'll put them to you all all at once. One, you in the book you do mainly kind of I know it's weird to say traditional because none of it's traditional, it's all a relatively new process, but kind of lower temperature, much longer um uh processes for you know your your blackened uh you know alliums and your blackened fruit.
+
+[11:13] Uh and I was wondering whether you've tested and rejected or just haven't played with uh like a lot of the shorter term ones that like Johnny Hunter's doing in Madison, where he's doing was first doing higher temperature and then uh beyond that pressure cooking uh black uh stuff. And I know that all the flavors are are are different, but I'm wondering whether you're testing it. And while you're thinking about that, caller, you had a question about black blackened products. What was it? Oh yeah, hey, this is this is uh Quinn Francis BC.
+
+[11:44] Hey, how you doing? Another four uh a uh fellow fellow Canadian, nice from Vancouver Island. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So my setup right now is a um old rice cooker.
+
+[11:58] So again, it is actually running a little hotter than you guys recommend. But I had a different sort of question. Um how concerned would you be if the eating got interrupted? Because that hasn't happened to me before. And I just requested it just in case.
+
+[12:22] But I was wondering like if it if it goes completely off for like a day if it's cold. Would you be reset? Could you hear that question, David, or no? Yeah, I I it was a bit choppy, but I think I think how how concerned should I be if the rice cooker shuts off for a day. You got it.
+
+[12:46] And then you restart it. Yeah. Um I that's not a good thing. Uh and it was actually Ariel who impresses upon me, but you know, what you're you're sitting in the prime range for for pathogenic bacteria growth. So if something cools down to like you know, forty-five degrees and it's sitting at that temperature for like eight hours, it that's that's not there's there's no way to to ensure it's safe.
+
+[13:14] Um you know, that's why you ferment or or you you you age garlic at sixty degrees because that's it's hot enough to keep the bacteria from propagating. Um again, garlic is something that grows underground anyway. If there are botulism spores they could they could very easily start to to kick off. So I I I elaborate on that in the book and I say, you know, it's your task with making sure that it doesn't drop. So I I would just start fresh for the it's not it's never worth your answer.
+
+[13:47] Stable at like seven selfies and I've already thrown up the old band. Making sure that you know, if it happens again, I know what to do. You know, back when I used to work at the French Culinary Institute, constantly, like people who were cleaning would come. This was in early, early days, back when people weren't used to things cooking for 24, 48, 72, you know, a week, whatever. Constantly people would unplug my crap.
+
+[14:14] Like I would come in the next morning and be like, I can't live in the damn kitchen, people. You know what I mean? Like, don't unplug my stuff. And like, so it got to the point where I would duct tape over all of the sockets. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:31] Because, and still occasionally, some moron would be like, I wonder what this tape is here for. Let me take the tape off and unplug this thing. I hated it. I hated it so much. Like interrupted processes.
+
+[14:44] This is why early no, no one does it anymore. It's not even a problem anymore. But early in the day, I used to tell Philip Preston, I'd be like, Philip, man, can't you put because the worst would be like I I didn't trust anything I did anymore because I no one had the data logger yet. There wasn't a data logging function in your kind of your standard thing. And so, like, I was always nervous if that some a-hole unplugged my stuff for like six hours to plug in a vacuum machine or some crap, you know, or a vacuum cleaner, and then just plugged it back in and didn't say anything.
+
+[15:12] I didn't say nothing, I didn't do nothing. You know what I mean? So, like, I used to be worried about this constantly, but I don't think it's a problem anymore because I think everyone knows now not to unplug the cooking equipment overnight. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, definitely.
+
+[15:26] Hate, yeah. One more quick question about fermentation. Sure, Queen, go do it. Go for it. Sure.
+
+[15:34] Um, so I've run some mixed responses about harvesting my own codes for. I was wondering if David has any other for making sure that that is sterile or there's no contamination from other flangers. Or you know, we'll so good. So not just harvesting your own spores like from the wild. No, no, no.
+
+[16:03] But just propagating around. Yeah. Um if if it tastes right, like if you if you grow the spores and you grow your next batch of koji and it tastes like koji, you're probably on track. Uh one of the really cool things that Japanese koji growers used to do or or manage to do is that they would they would select for for color variants. And this you know, the the idea that koji is white is something that people had to to do.
+
+[16:33] Um so it was domesticated and they're like, okay, we'll breed it white, so if anything else pops up, we'll be able to see it. We'll have a very strong visual cue and we'll know that something got infected and we can either toss out the batch or start again. So if you ever see uh different colors pop up, black, green, especially red or orange molds, you know it's been infected. But if you're if your spores stay pure and white and keep growing really, really fluffy and it doesn't look like any other sort of rectaline growing, you're good. When it's spores, correct?
+
+[17:09] Wait, what? Say it again? You're kind of uh Doesn't color shift from white to green when it just uh doesn't it shift from white to green during the growth? There are some species that do that. So there are some species that when they go to spore they go green.
+
+[17:29] Um but if you are concerned about that, find find a strain that grows white and you'll have that added layer of protection or that added cue. Okay. And you know, for those of you that don't I mean f for the for the few people I guess who are listening to this who don't know about uh thanks, Quinn, but for those of you who don't know the you know the basics of Koji, you're inoculating uh a substrate with uh uh an aspargillus species, uh, you know, fungus, and that is growing, producing a l a lot of uh enzymes that then do many other awesome things. Care to elaborate, David. Yeah, so it's uh it's how uh everyone in East Asia came across basically the process of ulting.
+
+[18:15] So liberating the starches and grains and being uh so you you one once you do that you liberate sugars that can then be fermented by yeast into alcohol. So in in the pursuit of getting drunk, we have koji in the world. Um and it has a flavor of its own, it's delicious, it's fruity, and its enzymes work not just on grains and starches, but also on proteins. So you can break down meats and misos and all sorts of tasty things. Is a broadband breaker down of things, which by the way, funguses are in general, which is why they're so awesome, but also such a pain in the in the behind if you, for instance, own a house or want anything to not get chewed up and eaten alive.
+
+[19:01] I mean, fungus they've developed a fungus that can break down anything. That's why a lot of your enzymes that you buy, commercial enzymes, are grown from some form of fungus that has been found in a laboratory to produce a very high uh, you know, quantity of a particular enzyme. All the enzymes I use are fungally produced um let's see, is that true? No, uh Activa meat glue is bacterially produced, I think. Anyway, um anyway, fungus good at breaking things down that's what they do you know they're one of the very you know you anyway whatever uh so on aspergillus I'm very curious because something I've never tried using before and I didn't really know that much about is this uh this other aspergilla species that you use uh loot wait how do you pronounce it luchu luchuensis that makes a citric acid luchuensis how awesome is it is it which is named after the island in the south of Japan where it comes from do you love it I love it it's my favorite thing on our it's my favorite thing to grow it's my favorite if you if you ever if you ever get your hands on it and you taste it it's like fruit loops on speed I like I've never tried methamphetamins I'm told that if I had methamphetamines it would be really really bad I'm I'm told that me on speed would be horrible idea don't do that yeah it would be a terrible terrible thing but uh I do you know I do like fruit loops so you know win also I like anything that produces citric acid you know what I mean like anything that can produce citric acid like how much have you have you ever figured out kind of uh uh like equivalent percentages that you can get if you're doing um if you're doing like how acidic can you get well then then you have to deal with actually extracting it.
+
+[20:48] I mean the the the grains once they're fermented are packed with citray acid you pop it in your mouth it tastes like a sour patch kit if you want to let's say transfer that into a stock you're all you're you're obviously going to be buffered a little bit that you're only gonna be able to get out so much of that. But when once you do, it is still super delicious. Uh totally want to I read that's the that's the thing I read when I read that. I was like, I want that. I want to try that.
+
+[21:14] I want to try so I want to try a koji that makes citric acid. That sounds like something I want. You know what I mean? So uh on that other thing, uh I you know the uh garum, I love garum, so I have a couple questions when people try your recipe so that you know we can give them kind of a mental note. Your squid garum, how I'm sure you've had the the s the squid, uh the ishiri from uh Ishikawa, right?
+
+[21:39] Or no, have you have you ever tried that one, the commercially produced? I have not. It is freaking awesome. I love it. It's my it's one of my two favorite commercially produced uh favorite uh commercially produced fish sauces.
+
+[21:50] So I can't ask you how dead a ringer yours is for that because you have you haven't had it. Um fair. Uh so that was one of my questions. The other one was the grasshopper garum. Now, I understand theoretically that people want to eat uh bugs, protein, yada yada yada.
+
+[22:09] I ain't never had a grasshopper where I was like, you know what? That was better made with a grasshopper than with anything else. I have to say, like, if that had been made with anything other than the grasshopper, it would have been not as good. And what you're telling me in the book, now here's the thing, and you know, I liked you know the the ant distillates and all that, they're they're good. But what I'm asking you, God's truth.
+
+[22:32] Is the grasshopper garum just surprisingly good considering it's made with relatively flavorless grasshoppers? Or is it an incredibly delicious product on its own right that deserves to exist aside from the fact that you happen to be making it from grasshoppers? In other words, would you ever choose it over a different substrate? Yes. Yes.
+
+[22:53] It is it is one of the most popular ferments at Noma, and it has been for a very, very long time. But is how much of that is because it's grasshoppers, and how much of that is because you would in a blind taste test be like, that's the one I want. I'm just asking. I'm just being a devil's advocate here. The satisfaction of eating like shellfish without the fishy flavor, that's what grasshopper garment is.
+
+[23:18] Except it's roasty and it's more meaty and it tastes it tastes almost like molite. Honestly, it really does. Oh, by the way, people, uh you guys use garum rather than the more kind of current fish sauce. Is that kind of just an homage to tipping your hat to bringing it back to Europe to doing something uh on the European side? Or like a like a a desire to not try to appropriate like like wholesale like uh a South, you know, uh uh, you know, an uh Southeast Asian kind of uh condiment or what?
+
+[23:51] Yeah, it it's it's tough to say. And a lot of the a lot of the reading that I had found about gerum and fish sauce, it it like the dates kind of don't match up. And there there are there are people, there are historians, food historians that postulate that um it only showed up in Southeast Asia in the way it's made today after communication between the Roman Empire and uh and China was established on the Silk Road. Yeah, I kind of doubt that though, don't you? I mean there are links to I mean, don't you kind of doubt that a little bit?
+
+[24:23] I like almost all of these kind of they're very uh tenuous food histories. You know what I mean? And it's like super, it's you know, especially for someone who wants to I've in other words, for instance, like you look at rice culture, right? And so it's you know, it it's now obvious, decades, you know, hundreds of years later, that rice was domesticated in parallel in two separate, at least, at least two separate, very different kind of places, two separate domestication events, at least, right? In Africa, in Asia.
+
+[24:59] And so, you know, there are some things that you know have one place where they come from, like chickens, you know what I mean? Uh but don't you think it's much more likely that since everyone has salt and everyone's got extra weird fish lying around, that it kind of just kind of happened, you know? Like if you really think someone in the possible. Yeah, I mean, do you really think someone in Asia needed some like, you know, like uh uh a Roman to instruct them on how to do this, but think about it, think about it this way. Not only well, I mean, not only do you need a Roman, right?
+
+[25:38] But if I handed you an amphora of garum, right, and say, yo, here's this sauce. We put it on everything. You know what I mean? And you'd be like, because they did, they put it on everything. It was like, you know, everything.
+
+[25:51] It was like more they put that on more things than we put on ketchup in the US, right? But it's like every damn recipe had garn in it. You know why? Delicious people. But the point is, is that if I handed you a bottle of that, you would have no idea how to make it, right?
+
+[26:06] Doesn't taste like its constituent parts. I mean, it's like vaguely kind of fishy, but you wouldn't be like, you know what? I bet you the way to do this is to just take a bunch of fish and salt and throw it in a pit. You know what I mean? You know, like you wouldn't think about it.
+
+[26:19] So, like the idea that somehow mastery of fish sauce comes via raw, it just doesn't make any sense to me, that's all. You know. And now for our Bob's Red Mill moment, we're gonna talk about amaranth, an amaranth flour. So amaranth is a pseudo grain that is uh native to uh I guess South America. Uh it's a tiny little thing, and in fact, uh you can pop it really well.
+
+[26:52] Uh if you have the whole grain, you can uh and it's dried, you can pop it and then mix it, and in fact, they make a whole series of candies. You remember where the name of that candy is? The one they make in Mexico with the honey and the amaranth? No. You know what I'm talking about though?
+
+[27:05] Yes. Yeah, anyway, I forget the name of it. Um the Bob's Red Mill sells an amaranth flour. The cool thing about amaranth is it has it has a really nice uh taste. I haven't figured out exactly what to use with a hundred percent amaranth flour yet, but I have substituted as much as I hate telling people to substitute it into things like muffins and pancakes, small amounts up to about 25% of amaranth flour in those recipes are nice and good and add a kind of a bit of a nuttiness to it.
+
+[27:32] Uh amaranth, you know, it's if you believe in health, it's people believe it's a healthy thing. I of course don't believe in health. I care only about taste, but I still enjoy using amaranth flour. Uh Bob's Redmill carries whole grain, stone ground amaranth flour. Go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking issues25.
+
+[27:50] That's one word. All caps, cooking issues 25 for 25% off your order. Wake up. Hey, we want to do another uh another caller question. Yeah, sure.
+
+[28:02] Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Dave and Dave. I have been uh trying to track down the recipe or some kind of clue about how to make Portuguese fermented hot sauce. I know it's made with these with the small period chili.
+
+[28:21] I know it's got some garlic in there, and I know it has uh some kind of spirit. Other than that, uh no clue. Wondering if either of you have seen anything or in putting me in the right direction. Portuguese fermented hot sauce. No, uh nothing nothing on my radar.
+
+[28:41] And I just had uh a Portuguese intern with me for three months. And uh no but he I mean I I haven't I haven't heard much about that. Maybe you could call them up. Put it out, tweet. You're not really on Twitter, are you?
+
+[28:58] I am not on Twitter. Yeah, I'm on Instagram. Yeah. But not not. Well, email it to us or whatever.
+
+[29:05] If you get if you get an answer, if you ever speak, did you like the Portuguese intern? I loved him. He was fantastic. So you will you will speak to him again someday? May maybe you can get back to us and t let us know something and then I can I can forward it.
+
+[29:21] Yeah, well, I will do that. Yeah. Uh speaking of questions we had off of the internet, uh Wes Hendrickson wrote in, um, would you talk about this is for you, David. Would you talk about Koji aging meat? They omit it in the book, but the DIY Koji crowd is nuts about it.
+
+[29:37] Discuss. We don't really omit it. You talk more about marinades, not about aging it for long periods of time, right? Yeah, that's because putting meat in an incubator freaks me out. Yeah.
+
+[29:50] I'm sorry, but just putting a a hunk of meat at thirty two degrees for forty eight hours just makes uh yeah, not it makes me a bit uncomfortable, so I didn't want to tell people to do that. What about some sort of middle of the road thing doing kind of refrigeration uh dry aging with already made kind of in other words, doing the marinade just for a long, long, long y long, long time. How about that? Yes. Yes, that that works.
+
+[30:20] And that's that's what we say to do in the book. I mean, it's like make a make a cure, make shiokee, blend koji with water and salt, turn it into a paste, and then rub your meat down in that and leave it on for as long as you want. Well, how long have you gone? No, I well, as at the restaurant we marinate our ducks for maybe about five four to six hours. And it really actually does help to tenderize uh the f the skin and the flesh.
+
+[30:50] Right, but you're not doing like uh like a week or a month. No. But you have you could. You would make the meat extremely tender. But uh I I think after a point you're you're not you know, it's like a law of diminishing returns.
+
+[31:05] I don't particularly like over this why like I you know, I know that in your buttermilk fried chicken recipe with I forget what you added to it with the enzymatic thing, like I like buttermilk batter, but I actually don't l I mean I like it, but it's not my choice to marinate for super long periods in acid just 'cause I think the flesh of the chicken breaks down too much. Is it if is it accelerated even more or using a harder chicken? 'Cause American chickens are so so freaking tender anyway, that if you really if you do too much more kind of breakdown on an American piece of chicken, I mean, suckers pulp. You know what I mean now if you were gonna do it like on like uh you know you know an older chicken like a hen or maybe like you know the kind of chickens that I you know I had when I was in Columbia or that you get in Asia sometime you know older tougher chicken like maybe but I mean I don't know what you get in Copenhagen there are you getting like American style like hyper tender things or are you getting tougher pieces of chicken I mean you can you you can absolutely get like factory farms rock ends and and and all of that um but we haven't really sort of tried chicken and Noma. That was that was a recipe that Renee came up with you know just as like a oh this this could be a good use and we tested it.
+
+[32:25] It was good. Um now um back to black fruit again well sorry go ahead. Yes. No so just getting back to the the Koji on meat a lot of this uh is centered around like rubbing your meat down in rice flour and then I'm gonna do it. Nastasi just made a face when you said that.
+
+[32:46] When you just said rubbing your meat down, Nastasia gave me such a look that phrase got uttered once before and I was looking through the window nobody was looking at me. Alright go ahead go ahead. So the coji's growing on the rice flour it's not actually growing on the meat. Some of those enzymes do kind of go through the other side of the layer of rice cake and and leach in but it's not going to be anywhere near the same level of enzymatic production or at least that you'd experience if it was growing on a completely starky substrate. So I we've tested this in the lab.
+
+[33:24] You know, it's when we see when we see people doing interesting things, we want to be able to understand it ourselves and see if it's worthwhile. And it's not it it's it's to me just making a paste and rubbing your koji or rubbing the koji over the meat is a more effective, safer, and more controllable way of actually you know, getting some usefulness out of its enzymes. So here's some some more random questions. Back to the b uh blackened uh alliums and fruits. Do have you ever tried the higher temperature or or the pressure cook methods, you just don't like them or it's just you're sticking with traditional or just curious.
+
+[34:00] Yeah so I I follow Simon Davies on Instagram and he was recently posting about pyrolysis which is the the the thermal breakdown of of whatever plant matter at high heat in a short amount of time in the absence of oxygen. Um garlic at those temperatures I find you'll end up getting those burnt flavors out of them. Those those kind of charred acrid notes. And for me that's why that's 60 degrees for a really long amount of time is it's quite special. I mean it's what it is I I've never tested it so I I don't know.
+
+[34:43] But what I know is a hundred percent true is that you that no reaction is the same carried out in a way if you change almost any of the parameters of temperature, time, pressure, water, i like all everything changes. You know what I mean? And so you can't, even though the same style of reactions is taking place, you don't get the same flavors. And it's just a question of maybe they're not better or worse, maybe they're different, but you're thinking on something like garlic that you think it's worse to do the higher temperatures for shorter times. Yeah.
+
+[35:17] In in the rare instances where our our fermentation chamber has spiked up and jumped, I've always found that you do get these kind of like this like burnt garlic flavor. And it may not be like overt, it may not be like, oh, this is like garlic that was stuck to the pan and it's gross. But you do get that a little like in the back of your mouth, that twang of it. Yeah, but I wonder whether that's because you're running it so long. He's only running for like uh like in one s one one he's running with a high temp on the crock pot.
+
+[35:43] He's running, I think a couple of days, and then I think in the pressure cooker he's doing like 16 hours. I've never cooked garlic more than an hour and a half in a pressure cooker. So I don't know. You know what I mean? Um I mean I know that shifting into pressure cooking range like drastically accelerates my yard reactions drastically.
+
+[36:03] Yeah. Um drastically. But um, all right. But if in other words, no, I haven't yeah, I haven't tried that yet. I would love to do it, love to do someday someone I would love someone to do a side-by-side test and then bring the results to me so I don't have to do the work.
+
+[36:18] I'm too old to actually do the work anymore. I want someone else to do the work and bring it to me. Um other questions they have. Oh, when you were making your uh your shrimp now, shrimp, I'm assuming you chose shrimp for one of I think right garm, you did a shrimp, shrimp garm. I think one of the reasons you're doing that is because it already comes with its guts in it, right?
+
+[36:35] So you appreciate you just buy the whole thing easy peasy, right? And it's got lots of guts with lots of enzymes in it. Now, and in fact, isn't that the reason you started Koji doping uh a lot of your stuff? Because you were using things that didn't have a lot of endogenous enzymes in it, yeah? Yeah, exactly.
+
+[36:51] Exactly. I mean, yeah, the grasshoppers do, um, but it it it really came about with uh with the meat scraps, um with the beef carrot. And you know, you're like, oh well, what what sort of digestive juices can we get from cow? You know any butcher shop will be like, we're not selling you those. Um full of E.
+
+[37:11] coli. Um so we switched to coachy for that means and then we're like, oh wow, this flavor's developing really fast. And discovered that. The shrimp caramel is uh is very it's classic, you know, it's just shrimp, lots of salt, just let it go at room temperature for for months and months. So you say no farm shrimp.
+
+[37:29] Why? Why no farm shrimp? Is that just because you you're hating on farm shrimp, or is there some actual technical reason the recipe won't work with farm shrimp? No, it won't it won't not work. I just find the flavor to be lesser than the amazing wild shrimp that you can get.
+
+[37:42] Uh I mean, I I know we're a bit spoiled here here in Copenhagen, but um I just I just think wild shrimp tastes better. I mean strictly from a taste perspective. Yeah, okay. So it's just a tasting. You know, one of the things about you know, if it's if a weekend warrior is going into a grocery store and they're getting like frozen tiger shrimp from Thailand, fed chicken shit or whatever.
+
+[38:03] I don't think it's gonna be the best six percent on it. Well, it's because uh farm shrimp are raised in in uh low low salt situations. You know what I mean? Don't you think that's why? I mean, I think like in like from the research that I've done years and years ago, you know, one of the main issues with uh farm rain sh far farm raised shrimp is that they're raised in kind of um kind of concrete pits at lower salinity levels, and the free amino acids and kind of like nice tastiness of a shrimp is kind of directly one of the direct relationships it has is you know how much salt there was in in the environment in which it was living.
+
+[38:40] Same with like bass, right? So you get like your your hybrid stripers, one of the reasons they don't taste very good is because they're raised in freshwater. You know what I mean? And no offense to freshwater fishing people, but I mean most of the stuff that what comes out of the ocean tastes better. Am I wrong about this?
+
+[38:56] No, I I would completely agree. Yeah. Now a couple of things here. One, you uh you you make a plea, you say, you know, that you've moved away at NOMA almost entirely from long cooked stocks, and you call it a greasy smear, like the old school gelatin ray stocks. That's pretty harsh language there.
+
+[39:18] You guys don't like you you know no longer even find a place for it. I mean, like it's on it actually know now with this game with this game season menu, we do have we have a dish of uh cold pheasant jelly with caviar, and that is a very, very classic stock. So it it it did make a comeback, and there's no koji in it. Yeah, yeah, I'll I will read the quote. Koji helps us to uh find the finesse in our raw ingredients and highlight their natural beauty without smothering it, like adding a spray of just right lubricant to a creaky door rather than a thick layer of grease.
+
+[39:58] Hating on the gelatin-based stocks, just hating on them. They're heavy. They they for me, honestly, they take me back in time. And I'm not saying that deft hand can't use them well. But these these are the things that I learned how to cook, you know, 15 years ago.
+
+[40:13] And they do, they they do taste of a time and they taste uh of a certain way. And they do weigh you down. And you know, Renee is the the final gatekeeper of what actually makes it off of the menu. And you know, one thing he is he is adamant about is that like the flavors don't weigh weigh you down in your mouth. Nothing that's like so incredibly heavy that you're like bogged down in the middle of your meal.
+
+[40:36] Things should be light and slow and and and and like almost flutter on the palate. Um and that's something Koji helps us do more than traditionally cook stocks. So that's that's why that's part of the mantra in the book and how we apply it. All right. Well, so we're coming up on the end here, and I was gonna get in a long protracted argument with you about chaos theory and hand taste and uh consistency in the kitchen.
+
+[41:03] So for those of you that want you know that want to get into it in the section on hand so the the cover of the book is kind of hey Nastas we we didn't get to say it. Nastasia hates the word spores, spores. Yeah, she hates the word sport. But there's kind of like uh there's kind of like a fungal high fee thing with a hand on the front cover, right? That's what's going on there.
+
+[41:23] Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's a discussion of kind of this idea that m you know, micro changes uh the in the cook's hand, hand taste, taste of taste of cook, taste of place, right? Hand taste, Korean idea, hand taste. But then you go into chaos theory, and this is where I have a bone to pick with you, but I don't have the time to pick it because Well you should just go to the hang.
+
+[41:44] The question well, we'll do it again sometime. The bone to pick is is that with a hand like having an actual hand taste, look, there is a true statement that batch to batch you're gonna get changes because you're not controlling it a hundred percent because things are wild, but part of having a taste from the hand is that the hand does lend some consistency through practice, right? I mean, that's the thing. Like, like y it is a trained hand, not like the random hand. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:09] Not like the anyway. Well, we'll we I wish we had more time to talk about it because instead I have to ask you this last question on the way out. And I know I didn't get in any of the pre-written questions. Well, we'll think about it. Maybe you come back on sometime.
+
+[42:20] You know, when you're back in uh, you know, in New York sometime to see it. Oh, and I didn't get to ask you, by the way, real quick. Coffee, coffee and kombucha, coffee shoyu and kombucha. You make them with spent grounds. I get it, as a way to reuse waste.
+
+[42:34] But revelatory or just something to do to prove you can do it and and not waste the coffee grounds. Uh it can be extremely good. Now, that being said, we have tested so many different types of coffee, and they are all different. You will get fresh ground where you'll have a batch of shit, and fresh grounds where you'll have a batch that will you'll be like, holy crap, this is amazing. Um we were fortunate enough to have spent grounds actually turn out really, really good.
+
+[43:01] But you can use fresh grounds. Um trial and error will tell you what roasts are best, what beans are best. Um but it's it's it's surprisingly good with this gold speed method. So yes, it is a great way to give something a second life. So uh you have been listening to David Zilber, uh, one of the co-authors of the Noma Guide to Fermentation out now.
+
+[43:21] It's a great read, but before you leave, I have the my last question, and I don't mean to blow up your spot, but if you look at your Instagram, which is David underscore zilber, right? Is that correct? Yeah. And you look at your profile picture, and you're also wearing this in your Grub Street interview picture, you have this amazing technicolor dream coat, and I don't want to like, you know, you to give any secrets away, but where do I get this coat? This is a miraculous coat.
+
+[43:45] It's like an amazing freaking coat. Is uh do you have the only one? No, there's more than one. I think they're sold out, to be honest, but it was made by a designer out of New York, uh, a label called Cease Marjon. Wait, make some fun stuff.
+
+[43:59] Cease Marjon, like stop margining. No, no, it's it's uh it's a Dutch name. But uh S-I-E-S M-A-R-J-A-N. Would you be offended if I found one of these coats and also had one? No, of course not.
+
+[44:15] I didn't make the coat. Anyone could buy the coat. Yeah, but it's like I feel like it's like, you know, it's your coat, so like if I wore it, I'd be like, you know, kind of horning in on your coatness. Whatever. If you can find the coat, Dave.
+
+[44:29] Two Dave in the same jacket. That's not that's not a bad thing. All right, cool. Well, anyway, thanks for coming on. Uh Kat, you want to say one more thing?
+
+[44:35] It's been a pleasure. Yeah, and next time you're in New York, stop by uh the bar, stop by existing edition, say howdy. I have one thing one thing to say before we go. I forgot to mention it. If you if cooking issues listeners want to come to the gala, they can use the code cooking issues for 10% off their ticket.
+
+[44:50] All right, well, there you go. See you guys next week, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[45:17] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[45:45] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. I'm one of HRN's interns, Nina Medvin Sky, with a preview of the next episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup.
+
+[0:30] This week's topic, the marriage of food and danger. Sometimes danger lurks in the food that we eat. So instead of saying what is poisonous, I'd rather say what's not, because it's literally just the flesh and the fins. Food poisoning doesn't just threaten our bodies, but it endangers our environment as well. The emissions of JBS combined with the other top five meat companies exceed the annual emissions of Axon, Shell, or BP.
+
+[0:58] For more, tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. To about one o'clock from a burden's pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. How are you doing?
+
+[1:34] Good. Yeah? Got Matt in the booth. How are you doing? Hey.
+
+[1:37] And we're and we're joined from the Radio Mothership. We got Kat in the studio to talk about, I don't know. I don't know what are you here to talk about. Our end of your drive. Okay.
+
+[1:47] But first, should we talk about the gala? So, a couple of things about the gala. For those of you that have listened to this podcast before, there's a couple of things that Nastasia enjoys. The suffering of others. It is me know maybe the highest one, right?
+
+[2:04] Uh but just below that is this creation that she and Piper, who used to work with us uh made years ago called the the wine Santa. Now, for those of you that don't know what the wine Santa is, it is a Santa Claus mannequin in outfit, right? With a tube running through its body out of its mouth, and it continuously one might say spits if you're in a fountain mode, one might say vomits up wine into a bowl, and then it goes, it drains and it just keeps circulating. So you're supposed to stick your cup underneath and just you know, partake of Santa's, you know, spirits. Spirits.
+
+[2:50] So, you know, one year Nastasia had uh a friend of the show, Phil Bravo with uh with the deep voice, uh, you know, saying, Oh, I shouldn't have had so many cookies, blah and like the wine would come out. This year, Nastasia has decided that she's going to use uh one of these uh it's like a very large version of those little flower pots where when you play music the plastic flower dances. So imagine that, but on a Santa scale, on a human Santa scale. So Santa moves back and forth and she can play whatever music she wants, and it's vomiting up wine the whole time. See, I didn't know that wine Santa danced until uh the night of the gala.
+
+[3:31] Yeah. And it was a delightful surprise. Uh okay. So Nastasia also, like, I like perennially refused to help her until the last minute. So she tried to make one by herself.
+
+[3:41] Till it's too late. Until it's too late. Well, no, no, and then she forces me to waste my time anyway and do it, even though I'm horrified by the whole idea. So horrified is the determinant's gonna come up later. So she makes this wine, Santa, and instead of constructing when I I looked at it first, she's like, How should I do this?
+
+[3:56] I'm like, you need to build a large enough base so that the bowl, when the bowl is, and I would support the bowl because otherwise it's gonna be a tipping hazard. She's like, I don't care, whatever. So she gets two like super weak PVC. This could not look more, this could not look more like little rascals, like you know, she did that thing out of there and it was not secure. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:18] So it's got these two like red spray painted PVC ski poles down to its base, which by the way, note to everyone out there designing things for structural purposes, like putting a pole to the base does not increase the size of the base. You like you cannot prevent something by from tipping by not increasing the size of the base. So anyway, so here's Santa's. Not only is it there's this giant punch bowl, cantilevered way out, she of course also hasn't tested it prior to this. Uh I did.
+
+[4:51] You did not. Yes, I did. This was a different unit. You did not you had never plugged in the unit that we brought to the thing. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:57] You said you hadn't because none of the screws or anything fit. No. The bowl didn't fit, the bowl was twisting around and tipping in every direction. Well, once you took out that little piece and it was flowing faster than it was when it was. But the bowl is still tipping anyway.
+
+[5:11] So it has like so many untested things. So it's at the Heritage Radio thing. We're filling it with red wine. This is at the gala, which was a fun event, right? Yes.
+
+[5:22] Yes. So she fills it with red wine. Uh we get it going. Uh we have she makes me go out to a hardware store. Hours I have to think about this crap.
+
+[5:29] And like get a screw to screw the bowl into Santa's chest, into Santa's sternum so that the bowl won't flip around. Yeah. And uh one of the event organizers, I don't even remember who, uh, I don't know whether they were on the Brooklyn Botanical Garden side or on our side. Anyway, I I'm walking behind her because I have to get napkins to continuously wipe up the dripping red wine all over the floor. And the giant splash of red wine, which thank God did not get on the felt plant art that was all over the wall.
+
+[5:59] It almost did, and I spent Tuesday cleaning wine off the wall. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, anyways. It was it was not bad.
+
+[6:07] So this lady is walking. I'm walking behind her, and she goes, That's horrifying. I want it 86. And then the guy from the botanical ground was like, I don't know if we can you know the guy I'm talking about. I don't know if we could 86 it.
+
+[6:21] They brought it, it's from the people. Anyway, so she's like, uh So they pull wine Santa, we drain the wine out, and they say you can't bring wine Santa back out until 9 p.m. Okay. So at 8:30, Nastasia's like, it's nine somewhere. And she goes, and first of all, there are pictures of this wine Santa, which looks all beat up, like all like silicone glue and spray paint, nightmare.
+
+[6:47] And it's turned against the wall like it's being punished in elementary school. She goes, there's pictures. So she goes, she pulls it out. This time, Jack Shram from you know uh uh existing conditions. He's like, Like, let's fill it with vodka instead.
+
+[7:03] Thank God for Jack Shram. Well, I mean, horrifying in a different way, a warm vodka spout is hard gross. Yes, but it was like a water. With the remains of the Malbec that you had had it in earlier. This is hard nasty all the way around.
+
+[7:14] So they turn it on. It's, I don't know, some form of cool in the gang or something they're playing. Santa's dancing. All of a sudden, you see Santa's like, oh, whoa. So Santa starts, Santa all of a sudden's like, I can't do this anymore.
+
+[7:34] Blah! And Santa just starts tipping forward. So Steven Hoppy from uh uh La Penultima, who came to the event, he's standing next to Santa. He's like, I'm gonna save this. Only Santa had already crossed like the 30 to 40 degree tilt.
+
+[7:52] So he iron palms Santa in the chest. As he iron palms Santa in the chest, Santa's head flies right off. Santa's head just goes tumbling through the air, flying across the hallway, and then and then like just goes around Steve's hand and just hits the ground and then keeps on dancing in a pile of his own vomit and and vodka. Like at least it was vodka. And like you can't see on the radio because it's not a visual medium, but just imagine your hands just slowly pumping back and forth while your face well, not even face down, doesn't have a face anymore, head fell off.
+
+[8:27] Like chest down, dying in your own pool of vodka blood and vomit. And that was the wine said. So then the next day Nastasi's like, So you gonna help me build that again? I'm like, what? What?
+
+[8:40] Version 2.0. Or 9.2. Oh well. Anyway, so like whatever. So I'm like, you know what?
+
+[8:44] So no, she's this is how Nastasia gets you. This is how terrible Nastasia is. Nastasia says, I have all of the things. She doesn't talk like that. She's right here.
+
+[8:53] You know what she talks like. She's like, I have all of the things we need to build. Yeah, pasta flyer. I'm like, you have nothing, that pasta flyer with which to build this. She plans on building it out as spaghetti.
+
+[9:04] She's like, I have a hand auger and like uh and like a screwdriver. I'm like, listen. And so like, I'm like, and then she's gonna take Jack Shram, the head bartender from existing conditions, and waste his free time. What? He did not want to do force people in, and then you say they want to do it.
+
+[9:21] Don't anyone say I wanted to do this. I never want to hear that I wanted to do this. So I'm like looking at her and at Jack, and I'm like, you're both idiots. Neither of you, A, have the skills to do this, neither do you have the tools. So we went to New Lab with a shop that Booker and Dax, you know, has a is a member of, and we had to build it, but then we ran out of materials.
+
+[9:42] Oh god. So we stole some well, he didn't steal. Oh god. Unlabeled wood. Uh-huh.
+
+[9:49] Is community property. But this guy had just brought it in there. He was still there, but he was working on something else. So I was like, eh, literally, how long did it take me to turn that thing into pedestals? Five minutes.
+
+[10:02] I took a four by eight sheet and I was like, crap on it. Staple gun. And like with like it's all there, you know what I mean? And like the guy was like, he literally turns around and goes, Hey, nice pedestals. Where's my wood?
+
+[10:17] Oh no. So we had to buy him wood. And now Nastasia wants me to make more because someone rented. Here's what she says. Dave, this is gonna be big money.
+
+[10:27] I'm like, first of all. For one month a year. First of all, I was like, oh, really? You've made three this year. It's cost like it's cost eight years off my life in terms of the anger scale, plus like my actual time, money, her time that she could have been spending, I don't know, selling freaking Sears all's and centrifuges, stuff like this, getting more of them made.
+
+[10:46] Instead, we're doing this. I was like, oh, how much grand total did you make this year? Well, nothing this year. This is like the fourth year of just you know, building up interest. Next year is when the real money comes.
+
+[10:56] This year's been the year of the Instagram for wine Santa. Okay, but wait. Oh, yeah. It's true. Yeah.
+
+[11:05] Okay, but before like a burning savannah. Before you talked about wine Santa, you said that the Sasia's favorite thing was making people suffer. Oh, yeah, great. Yeah, tell this story. This is awesome.
+
+[11:14] So about two weeks before the gala, I go to existing conditions to chat with Dave and be like, what cocktail are you gonna make? I brought the the mezcal for the cocktail. Just making sure everything's going well. You had texted me and said, I'm gonna be late for the gala. I have an event at the bar.
+
+[11:34] And I was like, no, please no. I told you the date in March for this reason. So you made me very you made me nervous. The most anyone has ever spent on a buyout at the bar. Like, and they were like, We're doing this because we really like the cocktails and the attitude you have towards drinks.
+
+[11:52] I was like, uh, go ahead. Sure, sure. And I respect that. But I really, I really needed you at the gala. So you made you were making me nervous.
+
+[12:02] And I was like, no, it's gonna be fine. Day, you you reassured me, you were like, I know how to show up and make drinks somewhere, and I was like, that's all I need. Which is true fact. It's true, true fact. And oh, and and that day we figured out we were gonna do a frozen cocktail, and we got a frozen drink machine.
+
+[12:15] It was all looking great. Which worked really well, by the way. Loved it. Those were delicious. I had too many.
+
+[12:19] So good. I think a lot of people had too many. You make frozen corsairs for those that are interested, which is preserved lemon, preserved lemon drink. So the spec at home is you make partially clarified, in other words, don't make it fully clear. Take preserved lemons, blend it completely.
+
+[12:29] The juice, the lemons with the pith and everything. Blend it, spin it out, but don't make it fully clear. It's uh, and it's one and a half tequila. We usually use tequila, one and a half tequila, half of that preserved lemon, half of lime, half of simple syrup, uh, some spice, shake it up. That's a corsair.
+
+[12:49] We made a frozen version. Go ahead. So I you know, I was a little nervous, but I trusted you. I knew you're gonna be there. And I knew Nastasia was gonna be there with wine Santa.
+
+[12:57] I've been talking to her and Rebecca about that. And it's like four, you said you would be there at like three. It's maybe four, and I get a text from Nastasia. I'm at the bar with Dave. He wants to know what time to load in at the garden tomorrow.
+
+[13:13] I'm at the garden. I am waiting for you to all of you to arrive. And new Jack was coming with you, so I texted her back and I was like, sorry, I was a little bit snippy, Nastasia, but I was like, this doesn't make sense. I had like all the like text messages, all the emails, I double checked everything to make sure I never put the wrong date in. I'm just like having flashbacks to like managing Momafuku's chefs of like what's gone wrong, right?
+
+[13:37] And and you don't, she doesn't respond. She's like, oh shit. She go, oh shit, that's it. And then I'm not sure. No, no, but you gotta say it right.
+
+[13:44] Oh shit. See, I didn't have that context. I was like, what's her inflection? What does she mean? Dave's.
+
+[13:54] So, um, so then I I call, I'm trying to call Dave. I'm trying to call Nastasia. Nastasia's like, don't answer it. And then I call Rebecca, Rebecca Palkovich, who works with you guys, and I'm like, I talked to her that morning. So I was like, what has happened?
+
+[14:07] And I'm like, Rebecca, like, they know they're supposed to be here today, right? And she's she's like, yeah, uh, I'm meeting Nastasia there at 4 30. And I was like, okay, cool. So I was like, can you give me Jack Shram's number? I call Jack Shram's, no answer.
+
+[14:22] Sassy's like, do not pick up. And then I then I'm someone else calls me that's trying to load in. So I'm like, have to table this crisis for a moment. As I'm on the phone with someone else, here they all come, strolling in. And I just I looked at you guys, I just pointed at the table.
+
+[14:39] I was like, I can't look at you right now. Yeah, yeah. Just so you know, Dave dared me to do that. But then you did it and they wouldn't allow me to back down. You loved it.
+
+[14:51] And so I said, I feel like I've been initiated into y'all's sorority now. Hey, whatever happened, uh so we like also Nastasi and I, of course, by the way, set up in like Jack and Nastasia and I set up in what? Like we were set up and we're like, well, okay, we're done now, what? So we go out to get some sort of food, and we find a five kilo bag of super fancy soba flour on the sidewalk in the middle of Brooklyn, and we're like, this has to be for the event. I get a text.
+
+[15:21] I get a text from Nastasi that says, We found buckwheat flour. No context, and I'm like, huh? And then she's like, Is it does it belong to someone? And I was like, Of course it does. We have a soba table, which was awesome.
+
+[15:32] So thanks for picking up. So then we just walk back in and we're like, we no one was at the table because I'm sure they were out looking for their flour. He didn't, he didn't know we he didn't know we lost it. Oh, really? Oh, Jesus.
+
+[15:41] Yeah. You know what's really hard to make without buckwheat flour? Soba noodles. Soba noodle, very hard, very hard. All right.
+
+[15:49] Wait, so we're gonna talk more about the space? So very quickly, our we're doing our galas over, but we still have a little bit of time left in our end of year fundraising drive. We're trying to do it bigger and better this year. Um trying to get many, many members because next year's our 10-year anniversary. Did you guys know that?
+
+[15:59] I did not know that. 2019, HRN's turning 10. How long have we been doing this show? I think you're at like eight years. Didn't you start it around 2011?
+
+[16:14] I don't know. I all I know is that very early on I came on Patrick's show. That's back when he would anyone that would come on his show, he would ask them to do a show. Totally. You should do a show.
+
+[16:27] Remember that? Like, I'm like, what? You know, they like yeah. Um so yeah, so that we're gonna be celebrating like all year long, doing lots of fun events. Um so you can become a member and be a part of all this by going to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate.
+
+[16:42] Do you guys have any thoughts on why people should become a member? Why they should support cooking issues? Now's your time. No, I can't think of any. Can't think of any.
+
+[16:55] What do you think, Sas? Like, I'm that guy, I like I'm just a bad person. I don't know. I support it, support it if you like it. Eventually we're gonna be like, okay, no more pizza, goodbye.
+
+[17:08] And we don't want that, so you should become a member. You know. What do you I don't know. What do you think? You give the pitch.
+
+[17:14] Yeah, I mean, you're the one who literally like your whole livelihood depends on. So why don't you give the pitch? Yeah, I mean, that's true. Well, because we have 35 shows, I know a lot of people maybe don't listen to other shows on the network. They should, they should explore heritage radio network.org.
+
+[17:29] Um, but members directly support all 35 of our shows, including cooking issues, and they keep everything on the air. Like, we couldn't do it without members. Oh, speaking of Heritage Radio, uh, in the lead-in to this, they talked about meeting three poisonous foods. Yeah. And I could tell, obviously, because anytime someone says poisonous food, what's the first thing out of people goo?
+
+[17:49] My name's Fugu. I'm served in a cup. You cook me wrong, I'll if you up. You know, yeah, I'll get it. But clever.
+
+[17:54] Yeah, my wife has had Fugu, by the way. I would love to have Fugu, but uh it reminded me, it just struck something in my head. There was a video years ago I got from Japan, and maybe this is where Miracle of Moisture Management came from because the title of the video was The Miracle of Poison Removal. Because if you take Fugu Rose, poisonous, you ferment them for a long period of time, and bacteria consume the tetrodotoxin and make the the egg the egg sacks uh edible. Hmm.
+
+[18:26] Yeah. Wait, what does that have to do with membership? Oh, just thinking about other heritage radio programs that you might listen to. Yeah, you should listen to meat and three for sure. Um Dave's been on it several times talking about water and other things.
+
+[18:38] Museums. Museums. Here's something here's something you should think about with poison. So a lot of foods, like plants specifically, and there's been a lot of published stuff on this recently. Uh but a lot of the the compounds that give herbs, for instance, their like special pungent flavor, like mint, for instance, the mintiness of it, right?
+
+[18:57] Is there to prevent bugs from eating it, right? It's like poison against bugs, and so we eat it in a smaller relative amount to our body weight, so it seems okay. So uh when we were doing our first exhibit for the Museum of Food and Drink, uh, like the crew, we were sitting around and we were trying to simulate this for flavor. We were talking about flavors. So we're like, well, what is it like to be a bug on a mint plant?
+
+[19:18] And so we all took pure mint oil, and we took hits of pure, pure mint oil, and we're all like, ah. And that's what it's like to be a bug. So you could do that test yourself. If you really want to know what it's like to be a bug chewing on a uh, you know, a piece of spearmint. Where else could you learn things like this, other than Heritage Radio Network?
+
+[19:43] And that's why you should support our programming. All right, that's my pitch. All right, there you go. Thanks, Dave. Alright, no problem.
+
+[19:47] Dave, you already have a caller on the air. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, it's uh Josh from Norfolk Virginia. How you doing? I'm well.
+
+[19:57] Uh so I don't know if Nastasia is still doing the poll, but for what it's worth, I'm 28, married, and my wife likes food and drinks too, so she lets me buy like whatever the family show I want. There you go. Good for you. There you go. Hey, did you guys get the snow there too, or did it stop before it got up to Norfolk?
+
+[20:14] Uh we're coming back from Raleigh right now, and there's a ton of snow, but we just got some like terrible rain. But it's all right. Uh so my question is about uh proofing who sinos. So like I know it doesn't change in like a closed centrifuge, but uh in a spinz all when making like banana houstinos or whatever, is there a reliable way to calculate proof on that with it being an open container? No.
+
+[20:39] Because I tried to use a hydrometer and it gave me some like terrible wacky stuff. Okay, so no, no, you can't because you're adding sugar. Like what I have done is I've measured just straight evaporation amounts, and so with when you're using first of all, open bucket centrifuges, also we would also get evaporation, especially people who had non-refrigerated centrifuges. If you have a like the way to really reduce evaporation in a in a commercial centrifuge is to put lids on your on your buckets and refrigerate your centrifuge, right? And that tamps down on it, you know, all almost entirely.
+
+[21:17] In the uh spinzole, uh you want to make sure that you have uh all of like the gasket really firmly on the bottom, the the intake top lid down on, and I even put uh uh what's it called? Um saran wrap over the over the output pipe, and I make sure that the tube feeder is on. And when you do that, you also gotta make sure that your uh your product is below either at or just below ambient. It could be colder, but it doesn't really help. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:53] So you want to have it be uh at ambient or below. Because the the by far and away, uh what the what the spinzall wants to do is bring your product up to room temperature as quickly as possible. It doesn't heat it in the same way that uh let's say uh a spinning bucket rotor does because there's not nearly as much friction, but it brings it up to temperature very, very quickly. So if your product is warm at all, it'll evaporate a bunch. So I've only done like evaporation tests, and having it without the tube feeder lid in it and all of that, you could get very high evaporation rates, like 10%.
+
+[22:30] And then if you do it right and keep your spins as slowly as possible, you're uh with alcohol, that is, you can get your evaporation rates down to like you know under five. So it's that's really the only way to test it. The other way you could do it is by using uh like an alcohol refractometer and and just spinning plain spirits, right? Uh but once you add sugar to it, right? So you're talking about there's two losses of proof, right?
+
+[22:56] There's a loss of proof theoretically because you're adding liquid to it in the form of I don't know let's say bananas or dried fruits and then there's the loss of proof because of evaporation but you know the evaporation one is the only one you could really accurately test because you could do it when you don't have sugar in it. Anything else it's very hard to properly measure. But I'll have you know that I'm trying to work uh I gotta talk to the guys in China I'm trying to work on a uh on a lid for Houstinos that seals it entirely just around the shaft so if you're doing batch mode Houstinos you'll get almost no evaporation and it should be uh easily uh what's the word I'm saying uh uh retrofitable to old and new because we're not changing the the dimensions of the stuff on our second printing printing second run. Does that make sense? Cool.
+
+[23:42] Yeah yeah definitely uh is there any like appreciable loss of proof you think into like the uh the puck I mean I mean there is alcohol in the puck for sure but like you know there's also like it depends on what you're spinning. Give me an example. So like uh strawberry and that's calpuccino. Yeah so like the fact of the matter is is that what I tend to do is I tend to assume uh I tend to be conservative because there's some evaporation, right? So what I'll do is I'll say okay uh I'll take the strawberries even though the strawberries are really only like 85% water or something like this, 90% water, I'll just take the entire base of the strawberry as water weight and I'll assume my proof dilution is basically you know strawberry uh, you know, plus liquor, that's the new weight of product, and the original amount of alcohol is there and distributed equally between puck and liquid, is usually how I just do my estimations.
+
+[24:42] And then, you know, that's conservative because obviously there's solids that are left behind, and those solids don't have alcohol in them. It's trapped in the water and and liquids between them, but there's also evaporation. So I'm uh yeah, I try to think that, well, you know, maybe you know, if you add those two things together, they kind of wash themselves out of it. We now bring you our Bob's Red Mill, food fact of the week. Potato starch is a starch extracted from potatoes.
+
+[25:14] Well, that's a tautological freaking statement, people. But I'll tell you something about potato starch. I like potato starch for a lot of reasons. Potato starch swells enormously versus other uh starches. Uh, and so it's got kind of unique properties.
+
+[25:27] If you look at potato starch under a microscope, it looks very different from other starches. And I really like dusting things in potato starch that are gonna get fried. It has a very particular fryable texture that I enjoy in a lot of applications. Also, potato starch is what they call hygroscopic. So if you include potato starch in recipes, you can get effects similar to what you get in like Martin's potato rolls or something like this.
+
+[25:55] So you can make kind of um that kind of like chewier, denser, water-loving feeling that you get in like uh a potato roll or something like this. So you can use it in baking, you can use it in frying as part of your uh coating mix, or all typically I use it as part of the coating mix, but I really like using uh potato starch in um frying applications. Thanks to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues. Visit Bob's Redmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order.
+
+[26:27] That's cooking issues 25, no spaces. 25's a number. Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hey, uh, Michaela, 26 out in Seattle, Washington. And stars for your poll.
+
+[26:44] I am trans female. So I don't know if you've had one of them yet, but hello. I had a question about I really want to replicate a um pie that my grandmother always made growing up, but I'm now with a partner who can't eat eggs, and I've tried like three different goes at it, and getting something that isn't just like a mucky sludge out of it. Um your phone click for a second. What kind of pie was it?
+
+[27:10] Pecan pie. Oh, yeah. Okay. Now, here's my question. Yeah.
+
+[27:15] A bunch of questions. Are you a nuts on top with goop below, or are you a nuts all the way through pie? I'm a nuts all the way through. Alright. Uh, yeah, so what can you do to get rid of the egg?
+
+[27:30] I'm gonna have to, first of all, anyone in the chat room help us out on this. I mean, it's probably gonna be, see, the thing is egg replacers. I don't know a lot about custard-based egg replacers, but you'll have to look at like uh, because you're fundamentally you want to make something that's relatively custard like. I mean, I know that pecan pie is more a little harder of a gel than than most custards, but most of those egg-free custard things are some starch base. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:56] Some form of uh huh. Yeah, I've tried Bob's Red Mill Egg Replacer. It's potato starch based. Um, it was uh not a good goopy mess. Uh I've tried a different egg replacer that was pea protein based, um, also not good.
+
+[28:14] I tried making it more like just like a cake, like a really wet cake with flour in it instead. Not not a good choice. Yeah, no, yeah, you're not like so those egg replacers are mostly trying to replace the functionality of egg protein in a leavening and binding sense. Not in not in a in a custard-based sense. What you want is like like probably like a tapioca custard kind of a thing, or something that is mimicking the more custody texture, which requires the yolks is more of a soft set kind of a uh a situation.
+
+[28:53] And I have done these before, I just don't have them at the at the tip of my tongue. Uh I mean there are specific starch bases that are made specific, you know, they're made specifically to do this. But a standard egg replacer isn't going to this is what like I like to tell people all the time. There is no egg replacer that will replace everything that an egg can do, right? And specifically the ones that you're mentioning are for a a different, a completely different uh uh application.
+
+[29:22] Uh I'm just trying to think if I know off the top of my head something that will do it. I I don't I mean there's plenty of there's plenty of like custard powders that don't have eggs in them. And I would try uh I would just try one of those. Like even if something just just as a test, don't waste a whole pie on it. Like, is are there eggs are there eggs in Mighty Fine?
+
+[29:43] Someone look up Mighty Fine and see if they're eggs in Mighty Fine. Uh and then, of course, you're gonna want to go more brown sugar on it than their kind of uh normal vanilla hit. Sorry, my uh I'm a little stuffed up. I got so I'm gonna sound a little bit uh might be hard to understand what I'm saying. But um I don't know.
+
+[29:59] I'll look it up. And if is anyone on the in the chat room? Is anyone there? Is anyone alive, Matt? One moment.
+
+[29:59] Yeah. But anyway, we'll think about it, and then uh hopefully uh I'll I'll try to come up with some good stuff and maybe uh if you follow me on Twitter, I'll try to Twitter it out to you or or s shoot me something on Twitter and I'll see if I can find any good uh uh any good recipes and shoot it back at you. Sounds good. I'll hit you on Twitter. Cool, thanks a lot.
+
+[30:25] All right, bye-bye. Nothing from the chat on that one. And that chat room. Where are you when we need you? Alright, so we have a question in from Jane in Toronto.
+
+[30:35] I like Toronto, Toronto's a good place. Nastassi, you've never been there, right? It's so close. Why have you never been? I don't know.
+
+[30:41] Wasn't that the one time when you had dinner with a radio show fan? At uh at the Momafuku joint there, that five floor momo. Well, remember I had to remember they were doing a uh a film festival, a food film festival, and they're like, what movie do you want to talk about? I think I worked with you on that. Yeah.
+
+[31:00] And I was like, Willy Welka. And they were like, Christina Tosey already took that. She's like 20,000 times bigger than you are, so crap on you. You get soylent green. I'm like, but she's like, you can choose any movie you want as long as it's soylent green.
+
+[31:12] I was like, soilent green, I'll choose soil and green. So I went to that uh Toronto Film Cube. Tiff, yeah. Yeah. And uh, you know, watched the movie and then talked about it.
+
+[31:24] People get soil and green entirely wrong, by the way. I've never seen it. You should watch it. I mean, uh people get it completely wrong. They're not murdering people to make the that people are like, oh, they murdered people to make it the food.
+
+[31:40] No, look, they they encourage you to kill yourself, that's for sure. But they don't murder people for the soil and green. Instead, it's oh my god, we destroyed the planet, we're about to die, so we have to chum up human beings and make them into food, or we'll run out of food. That's the story, people. It's not about the murdering people.
+
+[31:59] Don't they get to see what the planet was like as they're dying? Like what it was before. No, they go into some sort of sensory deprivation tank, and it's like, ah love love happiness. Yeah, and they die. Anyway, like to me, like that's just good recycling use, but it's like a perpetual motion machine.
+
+[32:18] Like, you can't feed people from people. It doesn't, it's not energetically favorable. You know how many pounds of people it takes to grow a person? Like a lot. Like, it's called feed conversion ratio people.
+
+[32:31] So right now, chickens for animals. It it takes listen to how crazy this is. Chickens are grown in about six weeks. It takes less than ready for this, less than two pounds of feed to make a pound of chicken. Think about that for a second.
+
+[32:49] Think think of how big we'd all be if it took less than two pounds of stuff to make a pound of us. You know what I mean? So people incredibly inefficient food source. Not to mention ethical problems, of course. Those pesky ethical problems.
+
+[33:08] Yes. But Toronto is super close to New York. So close. They have a good Chinatown. They have a lot of good stuff.
+
+[33:13] I really liked it. That's where I learned the Canadian bacon that we've been, you know, maligning Canadian bacon for all of these years. It's actually quite good. Uh anyway, so this is where this has nothing to do with Jane's question. It just happens to be Jane's from there.
+
+[33:27] Alright. So far we've gotten to Jane is from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what Anastasia likes to do? Nastasia is a sound person's worst nightmare because she loves to sit next to a microphone and rub squidgy things.
+
+[33:39] She's in a booth and she's wearing a freaking parka and going, squidgy quickie, quick, good, quick, quidchy, good. I have to be on conference calls with this lady in China, and she doesn't put it on mute and she rattles pots and pa pans around during and we're trying to have these engineering conversations. And by the way, their internet connection in China is so bad. How bad is it, Nastasia? That we can't ever understand, like half the thing, we're like, I can't understand what you're saying.
+
+[34:07] You know what I mean? And then like, and then she's like rattling her pots around, and now on the radio, she's like, let me just goey in my park. Let me do the, let me do the wine Santa dance in my parking. Shoop, shoop, shoop. Nastasia should get into ASMR.
+
+[34:18] What's that? It's uh the thing on YouTube where people like when people like wrestle brushes. Oh, I don't like that. Is it as bad as spores and mold? Yeah.
+
+[34:27] Oh, by the way, so in the wake of the uh David Zilber fermentation thing, I I went home and I had accidentally bought like five times as many tomatoes as I needed. And so I was like, blah, crap on it. I'll ferment it. Remember that like years ago I made the uh fermented salsa? Yeah.
+
+[34:44] So now I've started fermenting again. And my wife's like, really? I'm like, yeah, it's really, really. Anyway, back to Jane. Uh hi to the cooking issues gang.
+
+[34:54] I received an infrared thermometer for my birthday a couple of months back, and want to get more use out of it cooking wise than just checking that my water is the correct temperature when I'm making matcha. I understand that it reads surface temperature. But what are some practical applications for it in the kitchen? Uh love the show, and thanks as always, Jane from Toronto. Alright, well, I mean, I use my infrared uh, I use it, what do I use it for?
+
+[35:13] I use it to shoot a lot of times, like the inside of my ovens. I use it to shoot uh when I make stone moles, but this is not normal applications. Like I'm trying to think of a normal person application for this. And because I'm not thinking of a normal person application for this, instead, I will go through my usual diatribe of mistakes people make with infrared thermometers. There are uh two main mistakes people make with infrared thermometers.
+
+[35:43] One is not understanding what's called the emissivity of your infrared thermometer. So infrared thermometer is measuring uh it's measuring the the light coming off of uh an item. It's looking for a specific wavelength and it's correlating that with the temperature of the thing, right? And here's the problem. Water, they're they're all calibrated, so like different objects, right, have what's called different emissivity.
+
+[36:08] And you if you think about it, it's it's uh, you know, how how to explain it normally. Basically, a high emissivity means that it's gonna register a higher temperature. It's gonna get more of that uh light coming off at uh at a particular temperature, and a very low emissivity, which usually corresponds to very reflective metal surfaces, is gonna mean that relatively little of the light that you're measuring is coming off of it. And so low emissivity, things like aluminum, metal, very hard to measure with infrared thermometer. So people try to read a dry pan, a dry aluminum, uh dry stainless steel, dry aluminum pan with an infrared thermometer, getting wild, wildly inaccurate readings, right?
+
+[36:51] So the emissivity of something that's called a perfect black body, so flat black spray paint is one. Something that is completely you know the other direction like the shiniest shiniest metal is emissivity zero something like uh stainless steel aluminum pan is like 0.05 most of the food that we measure is 0.95 to 0.97 so most in uh most infrared thermometers are calibrated to that emissivity and you can't change it what that means is is that different foods are gonna give relatively different um readings not on only on their temperature but based on their emissivity luckily for you water which you're measuring for matcha has a fairly uh because it's it's not clear at infrared temperatures has a very uh fairly uh you know uh close emissivity to what it's measuring things like glass don't necessarily so you can't measure the side of a piece of glass and get a good uh reading uh pans do not uh if you have a a bare pan and you want to measure the temperature let's say you're gonna fry an egg or I mean like I when I fry an egg or fry whatever who else does this the old school where you just take a drop of water and throw it in the pan is that what everyone does or is that just me? No everybody does that. Yeah that's what I do I don't bother measuring it but if I really care I'll measure it with an infrared thermometer or I'll sometimes measure the temperature of my uh large griddles with an infrared thermometer so cast iron black cast iron good add some oil uh if you're gonna measure a pan even a little bit of oil uh like like five thousandths of an inch of oil brings your emissivity from 0.05 all the way up to like 80%, eight a 0.8 right? So any more than that, you're bringing it up to where oil is, which is like 0.95.
+
+[38:35] So that's the first thing. It's like figuring out what you're measuring. Also, uh, you you can't measure through anything, right? So you're literally, if you were to have if I was to sit here and try to measure the forehead of this knucklehead wiping his eyes, sitting at this table here waiting for his freaking pizza to come, I can't because the glas all it's gonna measure is the glass, right? Uh the second thing people get wrong or don't think about on infrared thermometer is what's called the aspect ratio or the field of view.
+
+[39:02] So someone will stand like 10 feet away from an object, point the laser, for instance, a cat's head, and try to measure her. But what's happening is is it's measuring a large cone. And usually on the side, and so it's an average of cat, the the wall, everything else. What you want to do is get as close as you can with the infrared thermometer. And what I usually do when I'm buying an infrared thermometer is make sure that I have a very narrow field of vi uh view so that it's getting a very narrow spot.
+
+[39:28] Does that make sense, Tess? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's good good look, non-contact thermometers are great, but they can't replace, they can't replace everything you need. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[39:40] It's also hard to get a non-cocked contact thermometer that can measure very, very, very high temperatures. So if you're trying to measure, which by the way, it's another gripe I have. People are like, my boiler is like 5,000 degrees. No, it's what does that even mean? It doesn't have any meaning.
+
+[39:56] Trying to directly measure the temperature of like of like a combustion element and trying to relate that to how hot your food is is almost almost meaningless. So uh anyway, whatever. This I c I could talk for, you know, hours and hours because I have to worry about this with things like Searsols and crap like this. Can I ask you a question about like a digital thermometer, like thermometer? Sure.
+
+[40:16] Do you ever have to worry about that becoming inaccurate? Uh yeah. So like if you're working with it, typically there's two ways to calibrate your thermometer. You can do the the boiling water, uh, where you're you're putting it in boiling water. Uh the only advantage of that is that uh it also uh you know sterilizes the thermometer while you're working.
+
+[40:36] But uh you ever held your hand directly over a pot of boiling water for a long time? Yes, indeed. It sucks. Sucks real bad. Uh and and like the other thing is is that the is that the temperature of boiling water isn't actually uniform.
+
+[40:50] It's like the very bottom of it, the top of it's usually cooler at the bottom, so you have to stir it for a while unless it's rapidly boiling, and then it's really hard to hold your hand over it. Sometimes the steam can mess with the thermometers. It's like it's a nightmare. Uh much easier is the ice technique. So you get some, everyone's like, you have to use distilled water.
+
+[41:08] Garbage, garbage. It's use as long as you don't live, as long as your water is not like, you know, salt water, don't use ocean water. You know, water and like crush up some ice, and you want like a lot of ice and water, you stir it, keep stirring it for like five, ten minutes, it should drop, and you can see how close you get to zero. It should be at zero. Uh, you know, tenth or two above.
+
+[41:27] You know, we keep stirring. If you as soon as you stop stirring, the temperature will start to rise. So you just keep stirring with it. And you can hold your hand above ice water forever. So I always do ice and not uh the other way around.
+
+[41:40] Can you get in one more call or question? Yeah, sure. Caller, you're on the air. Oh, hey, this is West Colin from Washington State. How are you doing?
+
+[41:48] All right, how you doing? Hey, um, one quick back request. Would you be willing to post the Professor Plum's back if I have a spinzole and can make it happen? Yeah, so that's uh five to one. Uh I think it's five to one.
+
+[42:00] Could be four to one. I think it's five to one. I'll double post uh of uh pitted prunes. Get the best pitted prunes you can get. Good old Daniel, like French or whatever.
+
+[42:10] Get like a good high sugar, tasty prune, you know what I mean? Uh blend it with uh Pectanex Ultra S PO. Right now we're using Elijah Craig bourbon. We've used other things where we're using Elijah Craig. Uh and then uh spin it out.
+
+[42:24] That's it. And you know, that goes over a uh rock with uh a little bit of salt, a lemon and an orange twist, both uh both in the glass. Cool, thank you. Um I'm I emailed you a little while back about um glycerin and Darby Darcy O'Neill says that it can help to solubilize some ingredients, but he was using it for a bitter cherry phosphate, I believe. Um but using it as a dissolving base so as not to extract too much cyanide.
+
+[42:56] And it seemed really weird to me, and I didn't know if he'd talk for that. Yeah, I don't I I I remember that somehow uh seeing that, and uh no, I don't know. I mean, look, he's a chemist, so he probably probably knows what he's talking about. But yeah, I don't have any uh first of all, it was still extracting it and then just adding glycerin into the mix, right? So the the idea here is Is that yeah, people that you know is it isn't glycerin.
+
+[43:23] What is it like in straight glycerin? No, like uh whatever, one to four glycer in the water or something. Right, so still got the water in it. So I don't really know. I don't really know what the efficacy of that is or whether whether he studied it or whether that's just something people used to do back in the day.
+
+[43:38] Right. Uh in your mind it's just a bodybuilder, right? That's what I use it for. I mean, so there are there are some uh old uh I forget who told me this, but someone once told me a story, maybe apocryphal, about uh who is it? Was it uh Trader Vic or someone like this?
+
+[43:57] Uh this had a bet with uh this cocktail, he was making a high-proof cocktail, and the cocktail, you know, he only allowed you to have two, and this guy said he bet he could have three, and Trader Vic doped one of his with a huge amount of glycerin. And the theory being that the glycerin was gonna make the alcohol affect you more or something like that, or it's gonna wipe you out. But I, you know, I don't I don't even think that's necessarily true, but that is a story that goes around. So there are stories floating around of glycerin having more of an effect uh than I use it for, but we're using glycerin in very small amounts, uh strictly for bodying, and it is fantastic for that. It's like 0.1% by weight, is that right?
+
+[44:39] Uh we don't ever use more than probably half a percent. So it's like anywhere between you start with that, but you know, we go sometimes up to a half a percent. But that's a lot. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[44:54] Otherwise, and also you can blind taste it. We blind taste it. They do taste different in the different suppliers, and they're all vaguely sweet, but you want to try one that's relatively neutral, some of them aren't so good. Y'all ready? That's one.
+
+[45:07] All right, cool. All right, cool. Thanks a lot. Time to go. All right, well, listen, before on the way out, I'll answer this one thing.
+
+[45:12] Caesar wrote in and said, sorry for the barrage of carbonation questions. I need to know what gas line I use. He he's looked at uh Acuflex K31505, Yarn Reinforced PVC. No. People, I don't care what everyone else does on the internet.
+
+[45:29] Don't use PVC hose to put like liquids through. If you're using it for gas, fine. Just gas, fine. Uh, but if you are going to put liquids into it, right? So if you're going to have a liquid system for a carbonator, only use Bev Flex, polyester reinforced, uh polyester reinforced polyethylene beverage hose with an EVA jacket.
+
+[45:51] If you're putting liquids through it, that's the only way you're not gonna have terrible aroma and taste. Uh unless you like really to wash it out for a long time. Some people may not notice it. For me, peep putting liquids through that PVC is a nightmare. Now, I've heard that if the tube's been around in the factory for a long time, it's gotten rid of all of its terrible aroma, and it's fine, but crap on that.
+
+[46:15] So, but if you're using just gas, the Acuflex PVC is fine. But I only put gas through PVC, and I I always put liquids through polyethylene, uh uh braid reinforced polyethylene. Alrighty, see you next week. We're good. Yep.
+
+[46:30] Next week, cooking issues. Next year, Heritage Radio Network is turning 10. For the last decade, we've been committed to bringing listeners around the world the very best in food radio for free. Our small staff and incredible network of hosts work hard so that listeners can tune in each week to hear the important conversations in food policy. Stay on the cutting edge of cocktail culture, and hear the latest updates in food tech.
+
+[47:17] But there is no HRN without the support of listeners like you. Become a member of Heritage Radio Network today and help HRN get a strong start to our second decade. Choose from exclusive member gifts and stay in the loop on discounts to upcoming events. There's no better time to show your support. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate and wish HRN a happy birthday.
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+[0:00] This episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill, an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades. Their flowers and whole grains are the highest quality and are minimally processed at their stone mill in Oregon. Visit Bob'sRedmill.com to shop their huge range of products. Use Cooking Issues 25 for 25% off your order. The Heritage End of Year Fun Drive is officially on.
+
+[0:23] Become a member today at Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, you know, like, you know, noonish, like, you know, to about one o'clock for Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and we got Matt in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[0:55] Hello, hello. Well. So this is the like next Tuesday is Christmas, no? Don't know. Uh something like it.
+
+[1:04] Christmas similar? Yeah. It's definitely Christmas adjacent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christmas adjacent.
+
+[1:10] By the way. It is Christmas on X to there. Well, eh. Alright, then. Well, I won't be here because I'll be Christmasing.
+
+[1:16] Nastasia may be sitting here grumbling, break like throw a brick through the window and show up. Tell them that we almost got we almost got taken out last week. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so Nastasia and I on the same day, like almost independently got brain damaged by concrete. Nastasia, more literally than I.
+
+[1:40] So she's walking down the street. For those of you that don't know, Nastasi and I, when we're walking around the streets of New York, if we're in a bad mood, which is I would say often. 100% of the time. Yeah. At the very least, often.
+
+[1:54] Yeah. Right? So Nastasia and I have this like years-long ongoing thing where what we say is that you're in the you're in the touch me mode. And what the touch me mode is is you're waiting for someone to touch you so that so you can just go off on them. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:14] And it comes from I was walking down the street. Did we ever tell the story on the on the radio? I was walking down the street one day, and there was this giant guy, and it became apparent after listening to this screaming conversation. What had happened was this giant fellow, this giant fellow had um somehow he he you know had umbrage. That's this somewhat shrimpier fellow had done something to piss him off on the street.
+
+[2:40] Furthermore, this giant fellow uh was uh you know had just recently gotten out of prison and was on probation, and if he started any sort of fight, he would end up back in prison, right? But he really, really, really, really wanted to crumple up this tiny guy into a ball, into a bloody little ball, and like you know, bounce him around the street a little bit. So he was towering over this guy, going, touch me. Go ahead, just touch me, please, please, just touch me. So he could like, so he could like beat the ever loving snot out of this guy, and I've never seen a guy look so scared and so careful not to touch this dude.
+
+[3:27] You know what I mean? So from then on, that was years ago, like Nastasia and I won't touch me moment. So, like, the other thing we have is Nastasia and I have uh this thing where we have this, because you know, I don't know. We never, you know, we we've been in business for a long time, and yet somehow, by the way, we're almost climbing out of the hole for years long. Nastasia and I have given ourselves you know two years almost to like get uh by my 50th birthday to have us be in like kind of a stable good position business wise.
+
+[4:03] Uh and we pretend that being in a stable good business situation will make us happy in other respects, but you know, probably not. But anyway, so that anyway, the point is that uh the other thing we have is is that whenever we like slip on something or like something hits us and we're damaged, like we imagine that if someone were watching the videotape on the security cameras, that as we were about to get like like intensely and permanently mutilated on somebody else's property, yeah, that you'd see this giant smile go across our face, and we're like, We own this be hot, and just like slipping like as we're in the air about to get crumpled. Anyway, so Nastasia had a moment like that where a concrete masonry unit was you know how like here in New York, what they do is is they when they're building, they do dem demolition, they install a chute on the outside of a window, and then they put a dumpster down below, and then they cordon off the whole area so that they can just hurl crap out the window and it slides down into into the into the dumpster. Well, the guy upstairs was like, Who needs to wait for the dumpster? Who needs a shoot?
+
+[5:10] And just threw a CMU unit out of the out of the window, and it lands like you know, inches, like less than a foot from the side of Nastasia, and was like, Nastasia was like, instead of saying I could have been killed, it's like, why couldn't it just have grazed me? You know what I mean? Like, couldn't it have just hit me a little bit? It could have been big money. Big money, and like, you know, and with the anger, she could have had her righteous anger.
+
+[5:37] Like, Nastasia's main goal in life, again, if you come in New York and you go on the trains, yeah. If you go on the trains here, especially on the L train, which is the train that runs between Brooklyn and uh, you know, between Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and you know, uh 14th Street Manhattan, right? It's like Hipster Central, and also a lot of bartenders too when they work, that's where they go. So, anyway, you're in this tunnel for a long time when you're going under the river, and that's when the guys come out, it's showtime. And then they get and they do their little parkour moves on all the all the you know the banisters and stuff spinning around, like almost kicking people in the head.
+
+[6:14] And Nastasia, every time, is like, they're gonna kick Dave in the face. They're gonna kick Dave in the face. So Nastasia makes me go in the center where they always go, because her goal is A to get me kicked in the face, and B to see my reaction. When we live when we worked down in Eldritch Street, her goal in life was to get hit in the face with a loogie so that she could lose her mind. This is just a little insight into like you know how how we operate.
+
+[6:42] So the same day that Nastasia almost got killed by a concrete masonry unit, I for some unknown reason strapped on my bike helmet early. Without being on your bike, without being on my bike, you know, which is a goofy look, by the way. And then and I was doing a bunch of stuff, and I whipped around as hard and as fast as I can. For those of you that don't know me, I walk hard and fast. This is why I almost that's why I had to go to the hospital when I was in Spain walking into a glass wall, because when I'm walking, it's with purpose, right?
+
+[7:07] Nastasia? So I sma smash my head into this concrete wall. And I was like, and but I have a helmet on. If I didn't There would be no Booker and Dax that day. There'd be no Booker and Dax that day.
+
+[7:19] Anyways. Sounds like you should always wear the helmet. I know. I'm that kind of guy. Yeah.
+
+[7:24] Yeah. Anyway. Do you think Nastasia could have picked the unit, like in anger, picked the unit back up and thrown to him. Sure. If it grazed me.
+
+[7:32] So for those of you who have we talked about the legend of Baba Deep Singh? No. On the radio. So Baba Deep Singh, the Sikh hero, is like a character that I freaking love, right? So you know the Sikhs are well-known ferocious warriors, and they have these like giant, huge, very heavy swords that are, you know.
+
+[7:52] And uh one of the one of these heroes, his name was Baba Deep, right? And he was so angry. He was like, he was old. I think he was like in his 70s in the legend, right? And this group of people comes to, you know, uh take over some territory or invade or whatever.
+
+[8:07] I can't remember the specifics. So Baba Deep's like, I'm really? And then he like he's like, he's leading the army, he goes in with his giant super heavy sword, and one of the enemy dudes hits him in the neck and cuts his head almost, some people say almost all the way off, and some people just say like all the way through, but holding on by a string. So instead of Baba Deep, this is where the nostasia part comes in. Baba Deep is so angry that someone has chopped his head off, yet he hasn't killed them all yet, that he uses the one hand, I'm assuming his left hand, I'm assuming he's right handed.
+
+[8:46] He uses which, you know, assumption, I don't know. He he takes his left hand and holds his head onto his onto the neck stump, takes the sword in the other hand, and kills everyone, and then after he kills the last one of the of the enemies, then he drops his head and dies. Wow. And that's the kind of anger Nastasia would have. So if you ever kind of drop if you ever drop something on Nastasia in an attempt to kill her, just make sure you're far enough away that she can't hold her head on with her with her bad hand while she's running after you with some sort of weapon in her right.
+
+[9:23] You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. Alright. So uh call all of your Christmas, holiday, cooking related questions.
+
+[9:32] Two 718 497 2128. That's 7184972128. And while we're waiting, last week we had someone call in uh about a uh eggless pecan pie. And I did a little I didn't bake one because I don't have any time. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:49] I just don't have any. I I wish I had the time, you know, maybe in a couple years when we're happy again, I'll have the time to cook as much as I used to on the regular. It'd be great, right? Instead now I'm like caught in a rut of like quick cycle cooking. It's very hard for me to do research and long cycle cooking at this point in my life.
+
+[10:03] But you know, when I'm writing the book, maybe I will. Nastasi's giving me the air quotes, the laughing, and then the the universal um You're never ready, man. What do you call this sign in a nice way? Oh god. I don't know.
+
+[10:14] That's a nice looking thing. There's gotta be a nice way to say it. The you're wasting your life self-pleasuring sign that Nastasia likes to use. I don't use that. All the time.
+
+[10:26] You look at me, you look at me with dead eyes, and then you're like, yeah, whatever. And then you give the sign. This is total Nastasia. Don't lie, don't front. Nastasia, classic fronter.
+
+[10:37] Uh so, anyways, uh I looked him up, and uh, I was in conversations with some people over the Twitter. Some people gave in some ideas, some dairy based ideas, and I couldn't remember whether the caller, whether it was just an egg allergy or whether they wanted You are our trans listener. Yes. But I I can't remember whether they wanted uh whether like the couple wanted vegan or just egg-free. I couldn't remember whether it was an egg allergy or whether it was a vegan thing.
+
+[11:02] I think it was egg allergy. Anyway, the discussion was that you know using an egg replacer that's meant for baking isn't gonna help because what you're using here is you're using the egg proteins actually not just to hold kind of bubbles to hold air at a leaven, you actually need to set something in it in a gel format. And I looked at a bunch of um, because it's not common to have kind of egg-free non-vegan stuff. I looked up a bunch of vegan pecan pies, and lo and behold, yes, typically what they do is they use in some combination cornstarch. Uh, most of them, you know, some of the more complicated ones are more you know, savvy ones are using kind of higher end starches like arrowroot or things, but they're using cornstarch, and they're cooking it with a fat, so you could use butter uh and a liquid.
+
+[11:46] These guys are using coconut milk, you could just use milk if you're not gonna go vegan, and using enough corn starch so that when you heat it and then bring it back, it cools and sets back into a custard once it sets. Now, the thing about this is uh, and it should be stable, so you can heat it a little bit again and and and stay stable. The thing about it when you're doing these custard based things with straight starch and without egg is you need you can't just set it in the oven. You need to boil off your starch beforehand before you bake. You need to boil your starch off to get it going because you're not gonna get guaranteed to get a good custard otherwise.
+
+[12:22] Also, you need to have enough fat in it that the texture of it, because that the fat is going to provide kind of the texture as it as it cools back down. And third, you might want to grind up some nuts uh or uh other things to put into it, like fine, almost people put like a nut butter, and that all should also modify the texture to make it a little more like a classic kind of pecan pie uh filling. So for rate and so for ratio as you look at any one of these things on the web, just realize that that cook pre-cook step, the boil off steps uh step for the starch is important to get it to uh to function properly. Now, I saw a couple of other interesting ideas. Some people mix tofu in, you know, you could do it or you could not do it.
+
+[13:04] Silken tofu to add a little more body. I wouldn't because I don't think it's gonna add what I want. Uh a lot of people are uh added uh flax meal, and what fla flax meal is snot. You know what I mean? So, like like hydrated flax meal is fundamentally snot.
+
+[13:17] So I saw one recipe that didn't use cornstarch that just used snotted out flax meal and then mixed it with cracker crumbs, like not graham cracker crumbs, but like bread bready kind of ready bready bready bread cracker, ready bready bready but you you used to watch uh Buck Rogers when you were Kevin, you've heard of it. There's a character named Tweaky, who's this little robot, and he always walks around bitty bitty bitty biddy, hey Buck, like this, and he would just walk around, this guy Tweaky. So it was Buck Rogers, who is the guy, the the you know, the hot lady pilot whose name I forget, and then and then oh, and the other thing about Tweaky was he carried a doctor in the form of like you know how Flavor Flav had that giant clock around him? So Tweaky, this tiny silver robot had Flavor Flav style, this giant round, almost clock-faced robot who is the smart one. So I don't know why if he's so freaking smart, he couldn't build his own body, he had to be carried around on this moron tweaky.
+
+[14:14] So whenever I say something like bread or bready, I do it in tweaky. I see. Long explanation. Anyways, so uh point being crushed up the cracker crust, mixed it with uh, you know, first hydrated the uh flax, I forget what she used, coconut milk or something like this. You could use whatever you want.
+
+[14:32] That turns the flax meal into snot. You mix the snot with the crackers, that makes kind of a gooey snot, and then you mix that gooe snot base into the uh into the bottom of the pie, and that's how she got the custard. So here's those are the various kinds of techniques. Some people dope with little tofu, I wouldn't really go that way. Other people are making a straight um basically cornst eggless cornstarch custard, and so they're using fat, uh, like uh a milk a milk or milk substitute and uh butter or butter substitute is the fat uh with cornstarch, and then making sure that you let it cool until it is cold before you cut it, because you need that starch to set up properly uh and pre-boil, uh, or this flaxy snot or some combination.
+
+[15:13] But I like the idea of mixing something in like crackers or smashed up crackers, bread, you know, bread crumbs, or bready bread, or um uh like nut nut paste or nut you know, crushed nuts into that goop to get it to work. Because I remember sh, you know, the the request was for goop, a layer of goop, not nuts all the way through. Although, as I said before, I'm a fan of both kinds of pecan pie. Nuts all the way through or goop. Uh and Nastasia is one of those people who doesn't like pecan pie.
+
+[15:43] Right. Which is absurd. Matt, you also were also on the no pecan pie thing? No, no, no, no. I just I was at uh a fancy dinner the other day at the Jams Beer House, had the best pecan pie in my life.
+
+[15:53] Okay, and what kind of was it goop or nuts and goop? It was a mix. Oh, yeah, there was a healthy dose of goop in there. But like a layer of goop only with the nuts floating on top? Correct.
+
+[15:59] Yeah. And so what made it the best pecan pie? I mean, first of all, I don't eat a lot of pecan pie, so the standards are low. Um second of all, it was I don't know. I don't know what made it the best because I've never made one myself.
+
+[16:12] Uh it was just I mean, it was just delicious. I haven't I got nothing. I got nothing, man. Yeah? Uh I love pecan pie.
+
+[16:19] Uh did you put whipped cream on your pecan pie? Nope. Ah! Well, first of all, there wasn't an option. Who the hell serves pecan pie without whipped cream?
+
+[16:28] There was some fancy uh ice cream. Um ice cream, okay. Ice cream's a semi-valid substitute for whipped cream on a pecan pie. Nostasi, you like pumpkin pie? Yeah.
+
+[16:38] So when someone has like Thanksgiving, what are the pies they bring out at the end of your Thanksgiving? Pumpkin. Just pumpkin? Mm-hmm. Just pumpkin.
+
+[16:48] Or if somebody made something else, yeah. We usually have a fruity pie, a fruit pie, apple or apple similar, pecan pie, and pumpkin pie. And then everyone's like, I want a slice of apple, I want a slice of pumpkin. The correct answer is, of course, all three. I want a slice of all three.
+
+[17:05] And then just like generous gobs of whipped cream across all of them. That's what I like. But I love pecan. I love pecans. Uh and for those of you that uh, you know, remember the years that we were working with hickory nut and then we never got a good supplier?
+
+[17:19] Yeah. If you've never had, I would love to make a hickory nut pie. If you've never had hickory nuts, uh, you are missing out. Like, if you love pecans, which to me pecans are one of the great nuts. I love pecans.
+
+[17:31] But hickory nuts are even better. It's just hard to get Shag Bark Hickory nuts because they're so hard to shell. Remember, we broke all of those shellers. We were trying to shell it. And then there was that guy in the nursing home who used to shell them, and then his there's a guy in a nursing home who I forget the guy's name, but he lives somewhere like Ohio or something like this, where they have like a lot of the shag bark hickory trees.
+
+[17:51] And the guy, his only hobby was shelling hickory nuts. Can you imagine? Like watching Wheel of Fortune and shelling hickory nuts all day. You're like, I'll shell another one and another one. He could get like the nice big pieces.
+
+[18:02] Because we used to just hit him with hammers and try to sweep away the uh the shells, right? And uh yeah, this guy, he would do it, and then his like daughter or whatever would pick up these nuts and then sell the nuts, and then she would bring him nuts to shell, and he'd be like, Dad, how many of you shell today? Remember? Yeah. He must be gone now.
+
+[18:20] But that was an amazing deal. Like, you know, I'm giving some old guy a hobby, and I get in the hickory nuts, you know, and making some extra money for them. Anyway, uh, if anyone has a good supply of hickory nuts, I would love that. But the solution that Piper and and I came to was the old Native Americans uh solution, which is they didn't like they didn't like shelling these hickory nuts either. Yeah, but what else do they have going on?
+
+[18:42] What the hell? I mean, they were like, you know. We'll talk about this in one second, Nastasia. But uh, what they would do is they would pound the nuts with the shells together and make hickory uh nut milk, which is very nutritious, strain it out and get rid of the shells that way because the shells don't add too much tannin to the hickory nut milk, so you can extract a nice rich, thick hickory nut milk without having the shells without having to shell them. It's just you don't get to eat the nuts on uh as is.
+
+[19:10] You're using nut milks. See what I'm saying? So speaking of what was going on back then, what do they have? I've just just finished listening to this book I've been meaning to read for years and years and years called 1491. You ever hear this book?
+
+[19:24] No. Why are you banging your head against the microphone? The in-depth look at pre-Columbian America, right? Well, all of the Americas, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:36] So, um, so anyway, you know, and for a number of years, it's as well I can sense myself I'm gonna go down this research hole. I'm gonna dive into this well of windows. Well, because you're gonna be a in reenactment person someday. I mean, you think I'm gonna be a civil war reenactor. You always think anything I do, you're like, he's gonna become a reenactor.
+
+[19:52] Yes. Nastasia half assumes I read a book about Civil War reenactors, by the way, they call it Confederate in the Attic, which is an interesting read. Well, think about this, people. For those of you that are Americans, like, why are there so many more people who want to reenact Confederate side than Northern side? It's weird.
+
+[20:10] And Confederate in the Attic is like the book on that. And like, you know, whatever. Anyway, so the Also I have an announcement after this. All right. So the the thing is is, and you've known for you know, we've known for a long time, or you know, I've I've been researching for a long time, the kind of false idea that the forests, when uh when Europeans arrived, you know, the forests were relatively open and great for hunting and all this other stuff.
+
+[20:36] And so the theory is is that not the theory, but like the the fact is is that the the Native Americans who were here at the time used controlled burning and did a lot of um work to create a very particular kind of forest that wouldn't exist in nature, right? And so one of the theses of this book, 1491, is that in fact, the entire Americas, there was no such thing as wilderness. So uh, like a lot of the things that we associate with wilderness, like giant, giant, giant, giant buffalo herds, or like giant uh passenger pigeon migrations, where and you know, up until 1914 when they became extinct, Americans, European Americans would eat tons and tons and tons of passenger pigeons every year because they're delicious. Uh or um mast-fed things like like uh like the way pigs used to feed on mast and mast is things like hickory nuts, beechnuts, and all this, that all of this was somehow bountiful nature. The fact that there was all these chestnut trees, like this is nature, uh, even in the Amazon.
+
+[21:36] That the reason that the all the so many fruit trees, such a high density of fruit trees in the Amazon is seen as a natural thing, and that we need to preserve this wilderness. And one of the tenets of this book, which is quite interesting, is that no, in fact, these are all human-mediated environments, and they only looked like they were natural because when Europeans came, the diseases were so bad that they caused a population cr uh crash that is like unprecedented in uh in you know, kind of new world populations, and so it appeared wild because all of a sudden now no more people were tending them, and still to this day, certain places like in the Amazon still have the imprints of the human manipulation that was done over thousands of years. Interesting concept, and especially related to how can we get good food out of these quote unquote wild areas in the same way that in Spain, you know, the argument why is Spanish ham so good. Well, it isn't just it it's because they have the access to the Dehesa, which is this protected but yet human-maintained environment of uh oak trees and um grazing land. Uh so anyway, so I'm probably gonna next year go into uh some sort of deep well of research and not come up for a while and Nastasi's gonna berate me for it because there's nothing Nastasia hates more than me learning about things.
+
+[22:48] Yeah, because you have so many things that you haven't finished. Like what? Your book? That's true. This is all going in the book.
+
+[22:57] Also. I can't write about that though. Yeah. But the thing is that all I enjoy doing, the only thing I enjoy doing is learning about things. Yeah, that's it.
+
+[23:04] It's like that's my hobby. That's it. That's all I enjoy doing. Like, or foraging for food. For the past 10 years, Heritage Radio Network has brought listeners around the world the most important voices in food and drink.
+
+[23:20] I'm Matt Patterson, the lead engineer here at HRN. Six years ago, when I was teaching myself to brew beer out in San Diego, I listened to Heritage Radio Shows for tips, tricks, and inspiration. Heritage Radio's programming simply would not be possible without the support of listeners like you. Become a member of Heritage Radio Network today and give HRN a strong start to our second decade. Choose from exclusive member gifts and stay in the loop on discounts to upcoming events.
+
+[23:49] Now is the best time to show your support for HRN. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate. On today's Bob's Red Mill moment, we're gonna talk about sorghum, sorghum flour. So sorghum is one of the kind of what you'd say millets, which aren't really a real group of uh things because they're not all related to each other. Uh but sorghum is uh a millet that is native to uh Africa.
+
+[24:21] And in fact, it's one of the most important uh staples in the world. We just tend not to use it that much for uh human feed here in the US. You can also make uh from sorghum stalks, you can make uh sugar. Uh so it's an interesting source of sugar and an interesting source of flour. Uh, it's high in protein, sorghum flour is, but it has no gluten, so it can be used in gluten-free recipes if that's interesting to you.
+
+[24:43] Sorghum also has a very kind of cool taste. I really like it. So if you're substituting a portion of it into regular quick breads andor pancakes, it works very well. But uh I think a more interesting application is to do a traditional sorghum only recipe. I've attempted to make uh sorghum only biscuits, and I'm not quite there yet, but I did do an interesting egg recipe, which I can talk to you about later, maybe in future, uh sorghum biscuit kind of egg cocott that I thought was interesting.
+
+[25:10] But something that you can go look up online uh how to make right now are Jawar roties. And Ja'war roties are a traditional uh Indian um roti made only with uh sorghum flour. And what you do is is you have to use hot, hot water. So that hot water is gonna get it to have the texture that you need in order to make a roti. If you don't use the hot water, uh, where if it doesn't kind of swell and pre-gelatinize a little bit the starch uh inside of the sorghum, you're not gonna be able to get a good dough that you can form into a proper roti.
+
+[25:40] But then after you make the rotees, it's just salt, sorghum, and water. And these are the kind of applications that I really enjoy for kind of a different flour like this because it really gives you the opportunity to use something to its best advantage and not just as a substitute for wheat. So look up a recipe online for Jawar Roti and remember that Bob's Red Mill carries sweet right sorghum flour for all of your baking needs. Go to Bob'sRedmill.com and use the code cooking issues25. That's one word, all caps, cooking issues 25 for 25% off your order.
+
+[26:08] Speaking of learning about things and doing things. Um, one, we posted on Heritage Stories. All right, we'll talk. Let's talk about that. It's a day in a Tuesday in the life of Dave and I.
+
+[26:18] It was last Tuesday's life. She only tells me this after she's already recorded a bunch of compromising things. Yes. She's like, oh yeah, by the way, uh there's a lot, there's a lot of hidden messages in the. First of all, and and I want everyone to know if they look at it.
+
+[26:33] Right? I want everyone to know this. I haven't looked at it and won't. You want me, Dave. First of all, I lived it.
+
+[26:39] Why do I need to go back again? It's like people are like, you don't watch food TV? I'm like, no. No. That's true.
+
+[26:43] Like, why would I watch food TV? You know what I mean? It's like, no. You know what I mean? And then, like, and then the other thing is that she's like, uh, just insulted a bunch of people there.
+
+[26:52] You know what I mean? But but then Lastasia's like, Nastasia, for those of you who have said this a million times, she'll sit there and push my buttons and then get me to flip out, and then she'll only hit record. When they're a lot of while flipping out. Yeah, there's a lot of that in there, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:07] But I want you to know that this is a false. No, it's not, Dave. It is. Matt, you're not. Okay, second thing, everybody loves wine Santa.
+
+[27:17] And if you want a large format drink at Dave's bar coming out of the mouth of a wine Santa, email me. Okay, here's what I don't understand. How do we charge for it? They get a certain amount of this large format drink. And how do I monitor that?
+
+[27:33] Because you the wine Santa stays at their table. How do I monitor consumption? Uh, well, there's like marks on the on the um what? How ambro. Yeah, no, but if there's eight people at a table.
+
+[27:46] They have to pre-reserve. If there's eight people at a table, I can't. Well, but if there's eight people at a table Jack's taking doing it, so it's still, you know, it's the bar's responsibility. No, but he's gonna come to you with the playoffs. Eight people get it, and then everyone else is like, I'd rather have something else.
+
+[28:04] You have to do it. And then one guy drinks the whole thing. The whole table has to drink from the wine. That's the deal. Yeah, okay, well, you know, so email me if you want to only drink from the wine.
+
+[28:16] I can't let you know someone, you know, do the full job uh and just put their face underneath the thing. Well, it's gonna be a little job of all over the wall. And I now you just lost all your sales right there. It's gonna be great. Plus, everyone's Santa is yours anyway.
+
+[28:33] We have wine Santa's. Please don't think that. So Dave If I was gonna do it, I would have engineered it so differently. Nastasia's like this is terrible. Did you see that this morning?
+
+[28:45] See what? Our guy, Chris, was like, I love wine sands. Oh my god, a guy in Hong Kong. So listen, listen. Anyway, look at our stories.
+
+[28:56] I look at heritage stories. Wait, we had something on wine Santa. What was it? Uh Nastasia, first of all, is like, I don't really care. Nastasia doesn't care about the things I care about.
+
+[29:08] I do. I wish you would just do it. And then I don't care about the things Nastasia cares about. What don't you care about that I care about? Wine Santa.
+
+[29:16] There you go. There you go. So much. If if anybody at the bar came up with it, you'd be like, oh, this is genius. Like w wine Santa, first of all, Santa's beard is made out of like polyester.
+
+[29:31] And so like wine gets in Santa's beard. No. I've tucked it into his coat. She trimmed he cut who the hell wants a Santa with his beard tucked into his coat. Crazy person.
+
+[29:43] Alright. I think you guys should be mass producing wine Santa. It could be your next really big thing. So anyway, so Nastasia. Yes, I know, thank you.
+
+[29:49] I bet it would make more money than the Sears all. Nastasia knows that. We do. Okay, Nastasia's like, this is our big money, Dave. I'm like, first of all.
+
+[29:58] First of all, no. And then how much are we making off the wine Santa this year? He's in his quiet phase. I'm gonna stab everyone. Everyone know Nastasia knows more than anyone else that you're not supposed to use the word quiet phase.
+
+[30:11] I know, I know, no, I'm joking. This is his um, this is his we're getting people excited. So Cassie doesn't work very well, so I won't actually do the design work on it. Please the problem with wine Santa for those of you that care about equipment is this. Nastasia has purchased a pump that is not the best pump for this.
+
+[30:31] And so the amount of the distance that wine that Santa pukes out the wine. It's up to six feet that pump. Is related the six feet is the head. You don't know pump terminology. That's that's the head it can push.
+
+[30:45] Anyway, like the the amount of uh force that the Santa is right now related to how much liquid is in the unit. Yeah, so I wish you would have. And so you need to separate the liquid level from the pump velocity because you need to keep the amount of uh total don't give away the secrets. There are no secrets, you haven't solved this problem. You know how to solve it.
+
+[31:06] I know how to solve the problem. Please, listeners, write in to me if you want to see wine Santa work well and have Dave make it. I think you love Christmas. You love Christmas. Any Belgian out there?
+
+[31:18] Any Belgians. Any Belgians, yep. Phone has been dead all day, and you just started talking about wine Santa, and we have a caller. Do you think that's coincidence? I don't know.
+
+[31:28] I'd rather have a mannequin piss. You know you know mannequin piss? Please let it be so much. Do you know mannequin piss? Yeah.
+
+[31:35] The statue that you're in it's on the dynamite? Yeah. Anyway. We have a caller. Caller you're on the air.
+
+[31:41] I would love to see a wine Santa at every table at the bar. Boom. Sadly, I'm an idiot and I live in California. That's okay. But I think it still should be a reality.
+
+[31:50] What what what part of California? I'm in Costa Mesa. This is Jeff Given. Oh, hey. Where's Costa Mesa again?
+
+[31:56] Where is that? Uh that's like south of Los Angeles. Yeah. Okay. Do you watch Bo Jack Horseman and like it a lot?
+
+[32:04] I I have. I haven't seen recent seasons, but first. I'm not really in LA. My my theory is that Nastasia Lopez is Bojack Horseman minus the TV show. I'm not gonna comment on that.
+
+[32:17] She's the female version of Bojack Horseman, I think. Pretty much. That makes me todd, I guess. Anyway, so go ahead. Do you had a question about wine santa or any other thing?
+
+[32:26] Yeah, well, speaking of learning, uh, there's something I I recently learned in in my botany classes that I thought you might be interested in. Um so with in uh in the ground tissue of plants, there are three types of cells generally, and colinchyma cells. Um the best example of those would be the stringy parts of celery that would hate. Yeah. Umery stock go ahead.
+
+[32:47] I do hate them, I said, yes, you were correct. Yes. So as the celery stock grows, um those colinchoma cells uh get stronger and more rigid if the stem is exposed to a lot of strong winds or being shaken. So they they continue to grow stringier, basically. And so my hypothesis is that if you could grow celery in a more contained environment without any strong wind, no shaking, no abuse that you could you could possibly grow celery with uh smaller, less rigid, less bothersome strings.
+
+[33:17] So something maybe to try out. What about the like uh what about the uh the entire approach and like actually mounding it as you go? It would also probably blanch it. What do you think? You think that would work?
+
+[33:29] I think it's possible, yeah. I think it it would have a similar effect, just the more that you can protect it from needing that extra structure or even even giving it support as it grows, um the cell direction would probably then have less reason to strengthen those colynchy cells. See you do need air movement because of transpiration and and photosynthesis, but yeah I feel like if you could the mounting might work. This is the reason people to have an international space station. Why aren't they growing celery on that son of a gun?
+
+[33:56] There you go celery on the space station. How long does celery take to grow um two weeks maybe like six weeks. See this is something this like I like I if my tax dollars are going towards the International Space Station. Whose are yours? No.
+
+[34:14] Remember the roads we were on last week? What? Those crappy roads in New York anyway but my point is that they should grow some celery on that son of a gun. Are are you gonna test this hypothesis somehow? Are you gonna I'm I'm gonna try yeah I'll try a few things.
+
+[34:26] We can grow things in California. You're gonna do but you have like one one small benefit. Yeah yeah so you're gonna have like an do it indoor you're gonna do some like hydroponic uh celery there's using grow lights and all that sort of thing. Yeah yeah instead of just growing marijuana you can also grow celery without strings there is apparently a British celery variant that is they call stringless but I'm kind of highly doubting it. I doubt that yeah I've used cellulase to try to break down those cells and the Any luck it no it it must be it must be s like slightly lignified or something.
+
+[34:58] The strings must be more than just cellulose. It must have is are they? Is there any lignin in that crap or no? That's that's possible. It's just those specific colynchy cells that's.
+
+[35:09] You don't find them in a lot of other areas. It's mostly parynchyma cells, which are the fleshy part, and scleranchyma are like peach pet type woody cells. Um so they're just a very specific type of kind of uh s strong cellular wall cell. But yeah, possibly lignin too. How come they're not on the interior section of the U.
+
+[35:27] Oh, because those are interior parts of the is it's it is that a lever uh stem or a modified leaf, those things? They're stem. They're stem. This is what do you think of those words? Awful.
+
+[35:39] Especially scleranchyma. Can you give the uh speaking of celery? Can you give the OG celery spec? Yeah, if I can remember. Let me see.
+
+[35:46] So the first trick is generally uh you're gonna want to make uh an orange syrup. So uh, you know, look up I can't remember off the top of my head, but look up the bricks or measure the bricks, you know, if you if you have um if you're doing fruit work, you'll have a refractometer there. Uh so measure the bricks of your orange juice, make sure that you get a non-bittering orange juice, obviously. Um take the orange juice up to 50 bricks. Uh yeah, whatever you like.
+
+[36:14] We actually uh we use a navel cultivar and non-bittering, which is just luckily the cultivars that get shipped to us of navels are non-bittering. I know there are bittering c um uh navels, but ours are not. Yeah, most of ours are. Yeah. Um and so at least I don't think so.
+
+[36:33] To what bricks? Uh 50. So like up to syrup, and so then it is um uh what was the what did we use? We used uh I use gin for that. I think I used gin.
+
+[36:45] Sounds like yeah. So then it was uh the celery leaves, uh and then uh a little bit of uh par uh parsley uh to kind of balance it out, right? Uh because the the the parsley adds some a different kind of green hit to it and just if it's only celery, it's a little rough. And uh Americ you want to use the American style or what I call the American style celery, the Chinese celery will work, but it is ha it it is it is a more bitter and has these kind of um kind of uh volatile notes that are like a little more kind of aggressive. So I'll do American celery and a little bit of parsley.
+
+[37:23] Uh and if you do have to use the Chinese celery, then I would use more parsley. Uh and then two ounces of the gin. That was tankery, I think I used, and then um equal parts of uh lime juice and uh the um uh and the orange syrup and some salt. So I did you know you nitro muddle. And are you nitro muddling though?
+
+[37:46] Yeah, I nitro muddle it. You could blender muddle it. I've tested, it's fine, it's not as good. Um so it the ratio is depending on how you do it, somewhere between a half and a half and uh three quarter and three quarter for the two ounces, depending on how much kind of stuff. I think it shades closer to three quarter than to half, but I can't remember whether we spec'd it as three quarter, three quarter, keep them short, or whether we spec it as half half ha keep them full.
+
+[38:11] But it's it's really in the middle. Great, and no spinning, just just um blended and and strained or muddled and strained. Uh yeah, so if you nitro muddle it, you nitromuddle it per drink, shake it, and then um put it through a fine strainer on service. If you blender muddle it, you and it's just leaves, remember, not stock. And if you bl and if you blender muddle it, you um you blend you blend the st you know the full drink together and then strain it before you shake it.
+
+[38:41] Perfect. Alrighty? Let us know how it works out. All right, thanks, thank good. All right.
+
+[38:44] Alright, cool. Uh all right. Did you hear that? What? He said he wanted a wine sand at every two minutes.
+
+[38:50] Yeah, but how are we gonna fig like the thing is is they having it at your house where you don't have like legal alcohol serving responsibility or too much of a legal alcohol serving responsibility. And you have to have poor people. They all have to be drinking from it, and that's the rule. Uh uh No and the thing is you don't care about like the law or whether like someone gets overserving. It's not a bottle of wine.
+
+[39:15] You can't run wine Santa off one bottle of wine. No, we we turn them off after they've drank a bottle of wine. And how are you gonna monitor that? There's marks on the camber. So you need a a staff person to sit there and stare at this freaking thing, be like, You drank too much.
+
+[39:30] I will be there. I will monitor it. And then plus it can't be wine because it's gonna get like too highly oxygenated. What are you gonna actually put in? When Nastasi actually takes it out of places, she freaking loads it with vodka.
+
+[39:40] People like it. Uh it's not even chilled, people. People. It's not even chilled. Nastasi has not done the basic research on how to get it right.
+
+[39:51] This isn't my real job. So it's not gonna make a lot of money. No, when you start helping me, it's gonna be awesome. Crazy. So Kat wanted us to review some product.
+
+[40:02] Yeah, we but we have to buy it. How much does it cost? Um it's not oh wait, what do you mean? The Lee Press on nail cheese graters. Yeah.
+
+[40:10] I I think it's not real yet. That's not real? So it's fingernails that are cheese graters? That sounds real gross. You know why?
+
+[40:16] Because if you look like you're grating stuff with your fingernail, you you're thinking then thinking of the cheese as like the crap that you scrape out from under your fingernails, and no one wants to even think about fingernails when they're eating. Yeah. When you're eating, do you want to think about the crap that's underneath someone's fingernail? Like even slightly? No.
+
+[40:34] No, right? I haven't seen any of this, and every word you've said has been horrifying to me. Right. And I told you the story about when I was a kid, and the chefs just joked that he made the hamburger patties using his armpit and I wouldn't eat. What if we did a warm Glog and we can put the circulator in the like we did the first time we made Wine Zombie?
+
+[40:56] Sure. Okay. That works. Have you watched uh have you watched the Christmas uh rankin' bass things this uh this year yet? No can do, Santa!
+
+[41:05] Anyway, alright. Uh we have one question I'm gonna get to real quick. Longtime listener, first time questioner cooking issues. 29, married and male for the Hammer Census. Thank you.
+
+[41:14] Uh I have ordered a seven uh 7.5 pound piece of bone-in T-bone that is heavy on the porterhouse side, uh, will be dry aged for 35 days when I pick it up. Uh 30 uh when I pick it up 36 hours before I plan to plate it for Christmas Day dinner. I'm wondering if you could tell me the best way to cook it and or prep it. My instincts say to Sears all the outside, good Sears all plug, uh, and put it in a bag with a little oil and circulate it till it's medium rare throughout. Drop it down uh the temperature a bit at the end, take it out of the bag, dry it off, season it, and finish it with the Sears all again.
+
+[41:47] But is there something I'm missing? Uh my family likes their steaks done all sorts of ways, but I figure with this method I can cut steaks post uh post-cook uh that suit everyone's needs, and if someone isn't happy because it's underdone in quotes, I can simply fry it up in the pan to crisp it to bits. Uh thanks. Also buy your cerezals because Amazon says that they have enough for the year, but I don't know. Yeah, so they're like, we're not gonna order any more till March.
+
+[42:12] Mm-hmm. Anyways. I'm not even gonna make my Sears all announcements, but I will say this. We're out now of spinzalls, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[42:18] But you can come to book uh look at it. You can come to existing conditions and buy it. We have a couple in stock. We made a case. We made a case.
+
+[42:25] We have a we have a small retail shop inside of existing conditions. This would uh that question was from Tyler Klanow. Also, he works with Peter Schweiger. You ever meet Peter? I feel like uh at Marvel Bar in Minneapolis, and he says hi.
+
+[42:38] Uh hope you're well. Can't wait to visit. Uh I love uh my man Peter. Hope to see him soon. Anyway, so uh on this here.
+
+[42:43] So let's look at here. So hold on, I gotta answer the question. Uh so 7.5 piece of uh beef. I'm trying to figure out how thick that is. If that's like is that you think that's more than five?
+
+[42:58] That's big, that's a big piece. It's like probably what like four inches, something like that, five inches, something like that. Okay. Anyway, so what I would do is you can't just drop it a bit. If you sear it beforehand, that's good, right?
+
+[43:14] Uh, but you can't just drop the temperature a little bit and then hope that you're not gonna overcook it on the on the finish because uh depending on whether you do it, if you do it sears all, the problem with just doing it sears all in this case, if your family likes all kinds of doneness, and if they want it in kind of kind of that roasty high heat way, you're gonna want to get some time. There's no way to trade. You can make the outside brown, but if you if you searz all it before and after, um you're not gonna get very much of an overdone ring around the outside, and the fat part of it's not gonna render almost into that roast style, like prime rib roast style crackling fat, which a lot of people uh like. You could just cook the thing for hours and hours and hours. I would say cook it a long time, like eight hours or something like this.
+
+[44:03] I would cook it f at like I would do 55-ish, like 55 for like I would I would maybe do it at 55. You have to hit it with a thermometer and see when you get up into like 54 in the middle, and then immediately drop it and let it ride so that it's cooking for like you know eight hours at like at like stays above 50 but below 55 for like five hours there, uh and then pull it, I'd almost cool it almost all the way down, like to room temperature, do it the day before, and then just throw it in an oven and roast the bejesus out of it so you get some crispy crisping on the outside. And a lot of people kind of like it. I think a lot of people like it that way. You could also pre-warm it back in the bag up to kind of a middle temperature so that you know it's not gonna be cold on the inside, and then roast the hell out of it uh on the outside.
+
+[45:01] But as I've said many times, if you if all you do is drop the temperature a little bit on something that thick, you could also, by the way, cut it into steaks and just cook it like a normal steak, unless you want to present it whole. If you just cut cook it and cut it into normal steaks, then you can do it as normal. But if you have a giant piece of meat that you slice through that's just super fast sears all at the beginning and the outside, you'll get the outside to look nice, but the inside's gonna be too uniform throughout. So just be aware of that. Did I answer this question right?
+
+[45:26] Yeah, gotta go. All right. Happy holidays, man. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[45:44] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[46:14] Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by 100 Bogart Street, a co-working and event space in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Learn more at 100Bogart.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
+
+[0:28] Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're also cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know, like, you know, whatever. I don't even know anymore. So roughly 1 p.m.
+
+[0:49] from a Bernard Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Happy New Year, people. It's our first one of the New Year. And we didn't do one after the Christmas, did we, Matt? No, man.
+
+[0:59] It's been a while. Happy New Year, Matt. Happy New Year. How you been? Did you have any good food over the uh over the break?
+
+[1:06] Uh yes. I've been cooking a lot, actually. Oh yeah? Yes. Alright, well, but like what?
+
+[1:11] Oh boy. Um, like right now, I'm much uh Nastasi's got her here we go face. Well, what what what? Okay, fine. I'll keep it short.
+
+[1:20] I got this uh coconut curry chickpea sweet potato thing that I'm eating right now that I made myself at home. Yeah? Yeah. All right. And it's like uh uh how did you coconut milk?
+
+[1:31] Yes, and did you uh what coconut milk did you use? Oh boy. Um some organic hippie dippy shit from the Park Slope Food Co-op. Okay, I've never been to the Park Slope Food Co-op. I hear it's fantastic.
+
+[1:43] That's right, we don't let you in. I know, but I hear it's I hear it's fantastic if somewhat cultish. So you're a member of the cult? I have a high tolerance for bureaucracy, so yes, I'm a member of the the cult with all the paperwork. So for those of you that don't know about this Park Slope Food Co-op thing, it l you are not allowed to shop there unless you work, what is it, like four hours a month or five hours a month?
+
+[2:02] What is it? Uh two hours, 45 minutes every four weeks. Oh, so it's not that much. But if you don't work, you're not allowed to eat it. And you are not allowed.
+
+[2:14] Let's say you have a roommate. I swear to God, what I'm about to tell you is true. There's a documentary on this place. If you have a roommate, your roommate is not allowed to eat your food. What?
+
+[2:26] Yes. Really, the rule is supposed to be that the roommate is also supposed to join. Yeah. Yeah, but that seems like like it it's taking it from like not exploiting someone else to being coercive. Like just because you happen to be my roommate, what if I hate you?
+
+[2:40] Like it's like it's not like you like roommates a hundred percent of the time. Then you assume you don't share food with them, and then there's no problem. Eh, I don't know. People steal food all the time. So literally I have a roommate now.
+
+[2:49] What? I think the room the roommate is allowed to steal from you just as much if you are a co-op member or not. You're they're not really supposed to be stealing from you. You're also not supposed to regularly like cook for friends and parties and stuff like that, right? No one is that is not written down or said ever, no.
+
+[3:09] You're a member of a cult, a delicious, tasty cult. Now, the other thing is though, apparently the prices are very low and the quality is very high. Yeah, the margins, I think it's like 40% across the whatever it is, it's everything, everything same margin. Yeah, and uh what I've what I've been told, because uh my uh partner at the bar, Don, is a member, is that um is that if they they want to find uh like high quality and the lowest price they can, and if they can't, they'll give you a quality and a price conscious choice. True?
+
+[3:37] Uh that seems to be true, as best I can tell. All right, cult member. Nice. Uh anyway, uh Andy Ricker has always told me it's true after many tests that you should go through the trouble of making your own coconut milk once or twice. Problem is most of the coconuts we get here in New York are garbage anyway, but make go through making your own coconut milk once or twice just to see what the difference is, and then do what we all do, which is go buy the canned stuff because your life's only so long.
+
+[4:04] You know what I mean? Uh I mean, yeah. What was it? You should try. It's good.
+
+[4:07] Anastasi, what was the uh what was it someone said, why is life so long? Why is why is it taking so long? Was that they said that to us? Oh, it was amazing. So Nastasi will enjoy this before we get into the cooking related questions.
+
+[4:18] Uh can you talk about what our manual what our guy in China said to you the other day? Which one? Chris, when you were talking about all the stuff that we needed to get done, and then at the end of the conversation, what do you said? Oh, he said go. Nastasi and I are holding on for dear life.
+
+[4:33] Speaking of which, uh in the next week and a half, they're gonna be making the second batch of spinzalls. So it should be back in stock in about a month and a half or something like this on Amazon. And I'll say this by the way, if you know, in case you don't know, spinz all centerfuge, blah, blah, blah. The new round is basically the same as the old one, but the new lids, we got rid of most of the silicone parts that fall off, and the new lids have a plug in it so that if you jerks out there who own one, put it together wet with a little bit of sugar on the shaft. Ooh, sugar, ooh, Jesus.
+
+[5:05] Uh but if you put it together that way and it freezes itself shut, in the old, in the old days, you would have to like rattle the hell out of your lid uh and you know, possibly break the bearing. Now you can just pull the plug and irrigate the bearing with uh water until it breaks itself free. So if you break your old lid, new lids that ship that way, which we'll have in a month and a half, we'll ship with that, just an FYI. Okay, tell the story. Oh, so like, you know, Nastasi and I are holding on for dear life in terms of our business, and uh, you know, we think every every year we're like, this year we'll make it.
+
+[5:42] You know what I mean? Like, we're like, and like we're close, actually. Yeah. If this next project goes through, we're close. But you know, when you're building something, uh, especially when you're building it overseas because you're not there beating on people every day, and you have to rely on people, things take uh uh exponentially geometrically longer than you'd think they would.
+
+[5:59] You know what I mean? And so it's taking forever. And so at the end of this conversation, where I'm realizing that I thought the spinzalls were gonna be showing up this month. In fact, they're shipping at the end of this month, right? So that's another month down the toilet.
+
+[6:13] Uh, you know, and like things are taking forever. You my you know, my guy Chris in China goes, uh, so uh you want to talk about uh making uh wine Santa's Yes, yes, and I was like, damn it, no I was like, that's the last thing on earth I want to talk about right now. He's just been getting so many calls from potential customers, maybe you know what? No, for as much guff as Nastasia gives everyone that we work with, I'm pretty sure she called him beforehand and was like, yo, yo, yo, troll Dave. Troll Dave.
+
+[6:49] I'm pretty sure people, for those of you that have seen Bo Jack Horseman, except for the except for the being a TV star and a horse and a guy and living in Los Angeles, I'm pretty sure Nastasia is Bojack Horseman. You've already said this. Not to the people out there on the No, I said it to Don. No, you there was an episode called called Bo Jack. That's true.
+
+[7:09] We did have an episode called Bojack Lopez and the Oh my God. And they they uh that's a good show. Anyway, so back to the thing. So we for those of you that know Nastasi and I, we talked about this before. We have this kind of touch me moment thing where we're walking through the city.
+
+[7:24] Well, something happened today, so if you could shut your yeah. Um, so like we're uh we're we're I'm going in the subway, and the subway, for those of you who know, like there's a lot of us here in especially in Manhattan, we're cramped into these tiny things. Delancey Street, near where I live, and I have to come to this radio program from, is like a it's like you you can't it's built for people by people that hate people. Like you can't just leave the platform and go out like into the world. You have to go down and up and down and up, and the trains show up and everyone funnels into this tiny staircase and like goes down.
+
+[8:03] And I'm trying to fight my way up. Now it's a long staircase, so you can't see whether there's still a train there or not. You just know a bunch of people are getting off, so there's a chance that you're gonna make that train, right? And plus, PS, this is where we see whether people were raised properly, right? You gotta leave a slot for people going in the other direction.
+
+[8:22] Same way, when the doors of the subway open up, let me the freak off the train before you muscle your way in. So anyway, this guy is taking up, and and by the way, this is America, where we drive on the right hand side of the road. So when you're walking up a staircase, you walk up on the right, right? If you have a choice, right? Strange.
+
+[8:42] For those of you that come to New York for the first time, it you walk up on the right so that it's like being driving on a road. But paradoxically, if you were going to stand on an escalator, move to the right to stand. Now, this may be unclear to you, but that's the equivalent of a slow lane on a multi-lane highway. That's why. When you're on an escalator, there's no such thing as a single file escalator in New York.
+
+[9:05] You do not own your whole step of the escalator people. You do not sit there and have a conversation with your cowlike companions, looking at each other, chewing your cud on the freaking escalator up. You move to the right if you are standing, and you allow humans who have better things to do to walk past you on the left. This is how life works. Anyway, so I'm on the stairway, and I'm going up the right side, and I'm by the way, and it's you know me.
+
+[9:33] You know me. I'm all about as much as I hate, I'm all about the like, you know, the modicum of etiquette that it requires to get by in this city, right? So I'm skimming the right hand side, like, you know, filthying myself against the spit and puke that's on the side of the of the stairway. And I make it, I'm squeezing up, and then I see Gigantor coming down in my slot. This guy has a good like, you know, six inches on me, and it's built like an upside down pyramid, right?
+
+[10:02] And is in his mid-20s. And so he's not moving. And I'm like, you know, buddy, I get it. You didn't know whether someone was gonna come up the stairs. And I'm going up, by the way, so I have infinite freaking right of way.
+
+[10:15] So, uh, anyway, so yeah, I've done this many times. I'm going down the stairs, I try to go into the passing lane. Why didn't you just say excuse me? Please. So I go into the passing lane.
+
+[10:26] Everyone's got their earphones in anyway. I could sit there and chant at them and they wouldn't hear a damn thing I'm saying. So I go, I'm going up, and the guy doesn't move. When you do that, what you do is you scoot back into your side temporarily, and then you do it. Because whatever, that's what life.
+
+[10:40] I'm like, nah. I just keep going. And then he doesn't move because he's like, I'm huge. People have to get out of my way. I'm a big man.
+
+[10:46] You know what I mean? And so, and then I just keep going through it for people who don't know me. I walk hard. You know what I mean? So, like, I go through this guy, and then he goes back in.
+
+[10:56] About 30 seconds, I'm up on the platform. I'm already like, you know, rereading the questions for today. He comes back up the platform. To find you? To find me.
+
+[11:06] Oh my shit. To find me. And he he goes up and he looks at me and he's like, hey, what's up? Oh, Jesus. And so but here's where I use what Nastasia believes is my superpower.
+
+[11:18] I just I gave him a smile. This is why Nastasia believes that I have not been killed. Yeah. Is that I can say almost anything to you with a smile on my face. I could talk about your mom.
+
+[11:29] I could do anything I want. Because I have a smile on my face, Nastasia believes that I can get away with it. Whereas she says she's nice to people, but because she has such a sour puss on, people think she's being mean even when she's not intending to be, which is always she's always intending to be mean. So anyway, so the guy's like, What's up? I'm like, hey, I don't know, what's up?
+
+[11:49] My god, dude. And the guy's like, and the guy's like, because he wanted to fight. So he's like, you brushed by me pretty hard. I was like, really? I don't know.
+
+[11:57] I was just going up my side. And he's like, he's like, what? But I was like, I'll just go, hey, sorry, didn't mean to uh, you know, cause any uh problems. I was just going up my side of the stairs. He's like, the train wasn't even coming.
+
+[12:09] I was like, I don't know, man. I was just going on my side. And he's like, You gotta be careful, you gotta be careful. I'm like, okay. Thanks for the advice.
+
+[12:19] Yeah, thanks. I'll go on up my side. Bye now. And he left. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:24] And I went back to my thing. Like, but that is the superpower, right? Zero aggression. You're like, absolutely walk hard, plaster through him, know that he was in the wrong, and then zero aggression when he comes to try to start a fight. The confused look on this man's face as he walked back down the stairs because he was not able to hit me was something that I will cherish forever.
+
+[12:45] I wish you had gotten in a fight. No! In the 14th Street station, there was a homeless person running a blender base next to his ear. Homeless people don't typically have blenders. I know.
+
+[12:57] There was no craft. Nastasia is like, Nastasia once took a picture of a homeless man in a wheelchair who had fallen off of his wheelchair on the subway, and it looked like it looked like some sort of candid camera setup. You just see the man had been run over by his own wheelchair, and his feet were sticking out from underneath behind his wheelchair. So I'm like, oh my god. What happened?
+
+[13:26] And Nastasi's like, Nastasi's like, well, first I thought maybe Nastasi had run the man over. And then I was like, what happened? And she's like, I don't know. I didn't ask. I was like, what?
+
+[13:36] New York, you don't ask. No, no, that's the thing, New York. A man on the subway last night wearing no pants. That you don't ask. That you don't ask.
+
+[13:44] But if a if someone is face down and have been run over by their own wheelchair, you just do this one. Hey, buddy, you okay? Hey, hey, buddy. Buddy, you alright? And if he goes, then you're like, okay, bye.
+
+[13:57] You know what I mean? But I can't tell you, I've had people like having uh like severe, like uh, I don't know, whether too much uh drug interactions or whatever, but I've gotten cops for people or lifted people so that they wouldn't fall in the street. I don't love doing it. It's a human being. And I do love that.
+
+[14:12] You love carrying strollers. You love it. I do love that. You love it. I do love that.
+
+[14:22] Uh so I don't think we've talked since uh Christmas or New Year's, right? Have we talked since Christmas or New Year's? No. Confirmed. So I uh Nastasi, you like this.
+
+[14:31] Um when I'm cooking with a wood fire, I cheat. I've said this many times. I cheat. I make a large charcoal fire uh with a chimney starter, and then I build my wood on top of that because who the hell has the time to build the get the tinder, get the thing, build the pyramid, meh meh meh. Plus I'm using wet wood because my wood's outside and it's real moist up in Connecticut, right?
+
+[14:51] Anyway, but inside, Jen likes to start a fire the old-fashioned way with like, you know, one little scrap of paper and like like little things and kindling. So she's like, make me some kindling, Dave. Now, for those of you that have never made your own kindling, the problem with making kindling is you need to temporarily hold the little stick. Because I'm making sticks that are like, you know, I don't know, like half quarter, like half inch on a side, right? Little sticks.
+
+[15:18] So you gotta hold the stick. By the way, the wood I have is real squirrely. You know what I mean? It's not like straight. I don't have like these like tall, straight.
+
+[15:24] Anyway, so you have to take your your little axe, your little hatchet, and go bop and plant it into the already in small end stick, right? That can't stand on its own. Right? Really, what you need is some sort of tongue. And of course, I'm an idiot.
+
+[15:38] I'm inside, I'm not wearing my my gloves. So I go, bop, and I slip, and the axe goes right into my hand. I don't see it. I know. Well, so like what happened is I'm like, uh, I get up and I immediately just put my hand against my shirt.
+
+[15:54] And later I look back in the laundry room, which is where I was doing it, like, look like a crime scene. Blah blah blahere. And so Jen, uh, I'll make the story short. So Jen is like, we're gonna go to the emergency room. It's it's not that wide, but it's real deep.
+
+[16:09] I'm like, no emergency room. So she, so we have stere strips. So she stere strips my uh my hand together, and uh it's finally just it's so it's she did such a good job. My mom looked at it later and she's like, Jen, you did a good, it's called approximating the wound. Do you know that?
+
+[16:26] It's called approximating the wound. So she's perfect. My hand looks like uh looks like nothing ever happened. It's amazing. Switch careers.
+
+[16:33] So I know. Well, she's gonna learn how to do suturing, I think, so that in the future because the problem with the sterestrips is you have to be a little more careful of your body while it's healing because the sutures will hold it together even while you're still working. Whereas when you're when if you like with the sterestrips, if you if you bop, if you hit it, like it'll pop open again. Anyways, so uh I bought a new piece of equipment that I'm super psyched to use called the Kindling Cracker. So for those of you that need to make a lot of kindling, take a look at the kindling cracker.
+
+[17:04] It is a very well-designed piece of equipment, and now I will be able to make kindling all day long safely without having to wear my normal gloves. I could have just worn gloves, but you know what? Kindling cracker. Uh what else? Ooh, I made some good Christmas cookies.
+
+[17:18] Did you make any good Christmas cookies? No. Every year, uh, my family joins up with the uh Hartre Verona family, and we make Christmas cookies together. And I make Christmas cookies from my family background. So we have a recipe that we've been making for I don't know how many generations, like five.
+
+[17:35] It the recipe is so old that it calls for clabbered milk because it's like pre-refrigeration recipe uh for these like kind of chocolate bonbons, but then the Verona Hartray family makes these like amazing Southern Italian cookies that are based on hatred. I love them. It's like you ever heard of Mustacholi? Yeah. Yeah, so the must real mostacholi is like hard like a rock.
+
+[17:59] It's the it's you hate the first three that you have, but then afterwards you crave them. Kind of like kind of like working with us. You know what I mean? And so it's it's basically just flour with barely enough honey to make the sucker stick together. So we're making mustacholi and bonbons.
+
+[18:15] Anyways, nobody cares about Christmas anymore. Nobody kids, nobody minds, nobody cares. Pathetic. Uh all right. We had a question in from Rodney.
+
+[18:22] No, what is the first one? We're good. All right. Well, I already said Rodney. We're gonna do both.
+
+[18:27] We have a question in from Rodney uh in Amsterdam, and uh love the show, been listening. I have a question on the preparation, and um he used these words which I don't even know are real, but uh for Nastasia's sake, pulpoce and liqueform products. Yes, Nastasia does have the face on. I want to drink my vegetables instead of eating them, but I have two requirements. I don't want to get rid of the pulp, so juicing is not really an option.
+
+[18:50] Well, there goes selling a spinzel. Actually, spinzall is good uh for this in one set in one sense, which I'll get to in a minute, but I'm not not trying to sell you on it because frankly, I don't own any of them right now. Yes. I'm pounding our incompetence, dude. When we were trying to make the spinzalls, we're like, okay, we need more.
+
+[19:11] And they're like, yeah, no. And we're like, what? What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why?
+
+[19:16] I I I It's because they couldn't see your smile when you asked. Yeah. If they could have seen your smile, you would have had them. I would have had them by now. Oh my god.
+
+[19:23] I get so. First of all, for those of you that don't know me, when I'm in a meeting, I'm zero zero zero zero one hundred. You know what I mean? You see me do this, Nastasia, right? It's like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm not fine.
+
+[19:37] And nothing makes me like when you when you go to factory meetings, especially overseas, everyone knows that you're only there for a fixed amount of time. So one of the things that people like to do, because they know that you can't come day after day after day after day, is just put you in a room and stall you out for the entire time that you're there. And this is a tactic that causes me to freaking explode. So if you really want to see, you think that the rants I go on here, like get me into a windowless room in a factory. We're going together for the first time.
+
+[20:14] No, yeah. Nastasia's gonna have the pleasure of sitting in said windowless room. Yeah, I might lose it. Bring a recorder, bring a recorder. Oh my god.
+
+[20:22] We should do it from there. When you're sitting in a factory and someone tells you that they haven't ordered the product that you asked them to order a year ago, or that they're not gonna make this tiny change that they don't even understand that actually makes the product a whole lot better for your end user, or that you haven't approved something that you have 13 emails all in a row that say you've approved it. This is when you realize what the limits of your uh capability to retain your cool are. And I don't know if for those of you that are younger, you're supposed to get more patient as you get older, right? It's not really true, at least in my case.
+
+[21:03] In my case, what has happened is when I was younger, I worked on my own, like in the in the arts when I was in art school. So all of my successes, all my failures, they were my fault. You know what I mean? Or wait, you went to Tesla? Yeah, I'll talk about it later.
+
+[21:18] So or we can talk about it on air. Dax really wants a Tesla. So we're sitting there, Nastasia loves Tesla. I have one. She's she she has one.
+
+[21:25] She has one like I have uh, you know, I have a casket picked out, I'm not in it yet. But like uh I don't I don't really, they're gonna burn me up. Anyway, I didn't even forget what you may forget what I was talking about. Sorry? Well uh there you know a guy was in a Tesla recently and an airplane crashed into it.
+
+[21:52] That just stopped. That's true story. An airplane, an a DEA airplane, single engine Cessna on a training mission, attempted an emergency landing on a road in Georgia and smashed directly into someone's Model X. And did the guy live? The guy was fine.
+
+[22:10] And the plane got effed up. Yeah, I think the Tesla was fine. And me Elon Musk tweets the guy back, is like, all right. Love, love, love him. Yeah, anyways, so like I I'm less patient now because uh I'm always at a fine simmer.
+
+[22:26] It's like when I was younger, my pot got cool. Now my pot's never cool, right? I'm always just at a simmer. So when you turn up, you're ready to go. And and I, you know, I use very high grade induction to heat myself.
+
+[22:40] So it's like the heat is instantaneous. You know what I mean? I gotta mellow out, I gotta mellow out. I can get you there in like a split second. And so you know what, Nastasia has taken I don't know how many years off my life because really the only thing she enjoys in life besides The Bachelor, is seeing me get angry for no reason.
+
+[22:59] Yeah. It's true. Back to Rodney. I want to drink my vegetables instead of eating them. I don't want to get rid of the pulp.
+
+[23:06] And I don't want to add liquid. Most vegetables already contain a greater than 85%. Eh, that's a misnomer, 85%, whatever. Contain uh greater than 85% water, which should be plenty. Can I use pectanase with vegetables in a blender to get something easily drinkable?
+
+[23:20] Could you provide some general guidelines on what enzymes to use with different kinds of vegetables? Starch content, age, etc. I will try those and report back. Happy holidays, stuff your faces with delicious food and drink. Rodney from Amsterdam.
+
+[23:32] I did in fact do that. Um I did stuff my face. Um so look, uh, there's there's uh several things in in veggies that you're gonna need to break down. There's starches to a lesser extent, there's things like inulin and Jerusalem artificial, but you know, anyway, we'll get we won't get even getting into Jerusalem chokes, right? So to break down uh amylose, so let's say you were uh uh you you know a brewer or a uh well, more more accurately, a distiller, right?
+
+[24:04] It used to be that they would do old school starch uh conversion, but now they just do it all with enzymes. But typically you go through a multi step process. So you you chum the stuff up, uh you cook it with an enzyme that's specifically meant to liquefy it, right? So you want like a liquefaction enzyme. They then add a what's called a you know, uh a sacrification enzyme, which is slightly different enzymes that then breaks those uh gelatinized starches down into sugars so that they can ferment them.
+
+[24:37] That's not what you want to do. You just want to do some light liquefaction uh on the starch so it doesn't have the textural problems. But those enzymes, I've tried using them cold, they don't really work. They can't really attach uh attack the starch granules until there's some temperature on them. So they're gonna require some temperature if that's a problem or not.
+
+[24:56] The second thing you're gonna want to break down is kind of the the pectin uh and hemicellulose structure, right? And for that, pectinx ultra SPL or uh Pectinex um XXL, which is their non-GMO, sorry, their GMO version of it, uh, which I think I'm gonna switch to because it's cheaper and I think it works better. And I don't really care whether it's GMO or not. You know what I mean? What do you think?
+
+[25:18] You don't care. Yeah, I don't care. As long as I don't have to do uh agar clarification no more. I don't care what the hell you do. Um so the pectin enzymes work at a lower pectinase enzymes, I should say.
+
+[25:32] Uh work at uh don't need cooking. So that's kind of an advantage. So you can do a combination of them. If something has a high starch content, then you know you might want to heat it with some sacrification, uh, sorry, with some liquefaction enzymes, which you can get from Novazymes. We don't use Gusmer anymore.
+
+[25:49] I forget the name of the new company we use. Um but I'll try to post some. You could probably use some brewing enzymes, although I haven't tested them. Then hit it with uh hit it with some pectinx and and go. Uh fruits or veg that don't have a lot of starch in them, you can just liquefy quite well with, and this is like peppers, tomatoes, whatever.
+
+[26:13] You can just hit them with the with the pectinx, and that will that will smooth them out quite nicely. Now, the the thing you can't really break down with any of this is uh lignin and cellulose. So you can't get rid of like the strings in uh celery. So those you have to chop finely before you put them into your into your blender so that they they blend properly or whatever kind of technique you're using to get the juice out of it. But if you do add a little more water, and you do have a centrifuge, which I know you don't want to do this, you what you can do is on like a sweet potato uh or anything like that, you can blend it real hard, uh, do a slight cook, like sacrifice, blend it real hard with a little extra water.
+
+[26:57] The water, if you're blending stuff that's thick, it's hard to get very fine particle size because you don't get a lot of churning and you kind of kind of get lumps in it. Um if you add a little more water and then spin that water out, the resulting texture is friggin' crazy. And then you can resuspend it in water if you want and just drink the water. I don't know, whatever. But I made the world's best baby, not the world's best, the world's best that I have tasted, baby food, uh using uh pectinx ultra SPL, some starch enzymes, uh, some starch um uh some amylases and uh the spinz all, and then I drank the the extra water separately, but whatever.
+
+[27:30] I don't know. Nastasia hates drinking vegetables, true or false. Yeah. Well true, true. 100 Bogart has made much progress over the past year since their grand opening.
+
+[27:47] They are a growing community of professional freelancers, entrepreneurs, and startups. Their dedicated team guarantees you receive a productive and worry free work environment. 100 Bogart is currently filling up their two person to twelve-person private offices. The spacious pop-up gallery, premiere rooftop, and brand new full floor with terrace are available for your next event. Podcast rooms, conference rooms, and meeting spaces are also available for booking.
+
+[28:16] 100 Bogart hosts events like art exhibitions, pop-up stores, product launches, and fashion shows. Heritage Radio Network is a proud member of the 100 Bogart community and often holds events in the building. Visit 100Bogart.com to schedule a tour and learn more. Now we have a question in. This is a two-year-old question, people.
+
+[28:44] It's fine, fine network we're on. So uh Matt found this on the old uh way back in the voicemail. She's like Matt's like, you know what? It's a new year. Maybe I'll listen to my voicemail.
+
+[28:58] Hey man. So the voicemail, for almost the entire time that I've been here, the voicemail machine was full. So technically, no new messages came in while I was here. Strong. Yeah.
+
+[29:09] Strong. Alright, so let's hear it. Hey, a question for Dave on cooking issues. Seth Godin calling from Hastings on Hudson. Uh you mentioned doses, which got me really excited.
+
+[29:19] Uh, because I've been experimenting with doses without as much success as I'd like. Here's my problem. I can't get them to be crispy like they are at the restaurant. I've tried store-bought batter, plus I make my own batter from scratch. And I have a cast iron tava and the other kind of tava, and I've tried different temperatures.
+
+[29:37] What's the secret? I'll wait for the cookbook if I have to. But Dave, if you've got any dose of insights, I'd love to hear them. I love Seth Godin. I think he's a genius.
+
+[29:47] So I'm so happy he listens to our show. If he still listens to our show. On behalf of my predecessors, sorry, Seth. So I've got some good news and some bad news, Seth. The good news is I well, I got some bad news, basically.
+
+[30:04] If this question had come to me two years ago when I was doing kind of heavy research on idly batter, right, I'd have a lot more knowledge. Um, there's it's a big difference between just have having made a bunch of stuff and having made a bunch of stuff a long time ago, right? So I apologize that I'm a little bit uh rusty on this. And also uh there's been actually some research on this subject since I was investigating it. And the other thing I'll have to preface with is saying um I I was focused, even though Idley, even though Dosa Batter and Idley batter uh are often similar and people use the same batters for for both, I was doing tests almost exclusively with uh idlis and very little work with uh doses.
+
+[30:52] Now I'll just knock out the secrets that other people have. How about don't give him the secrets and he has to come have lunch with us instead and I'm not gonna make that well well, okay. So like uh in you know, one of the better doses that you can I've never been, I've never been to India, any part of India, definitely never been to the South. But you know, one of the better doses I've had in uh New York City is at Ganesh Temple out in Queens, and I was chatting with their uh what do you call what do you call it? Dosa maker, I wonder.
+
+[31:23] A dosant. A docent. Uh anyway, so like they're I was talking to their dosa maker, and he was telling me that you know their secret, which is a lot of people's secret to crispiness, is adding um some chickpea, uh chana uh doll to it. So for those of you that don't know Dosa, it's like uh it's like a Indian crepe. Typically, like the standard kind of style is you take uh uh black gram urad doll, right?
+
+[31:53] You get its skin, so it doesn't have the black on it. I've made batter with the skin still on it without and with the skins gives it kind of a gray unappealing color, and I don't really think it helps it. So buy the ones that have the the um don't buy split or broken ones, but whole ones that have the black uh the skin taken off of them. So it's kind of confusing. You're like, I thought I was buying black gram and it's white looking, it's creamy.
+
+[32:16] It's because they took the outside off. Um the second uh component is rice. More on that in a minute. And the third component typically is fenugreek. So classically, you soak, you could soak the fenigre, the fenugreek seeds, by the way, aside from providing uh flavor, fenugreek also has um like hydrocaloid-like properties and can affect uh the fermentation, right?
+
+[32:41] So uh, you know, you don't need it, but it's kind of helpful. It's there for a reason. Nastasia hates this conversation so much, she's walking out the door. Swear to Christ. Uh so uh I don't know, maybe she has to use the restroom or something.
+
+[32:53] I don't know. So uh you soak the dal and the rice separately, and then you grind uh the rice uh separately. You grind the fenigreek with the with the doll, you mix them together, you ferment them, and there you go. So now, what are the things? What are the different things?
+
+[33:08] The ratio of rice to to dal to uh urad dal is a big thing. Um I typically am, you know, of the four to one to between four to one and three to one on rice to to doll, right? Secondly, is the technique that you're gonna make them, whether you use a blender or uh a mixy or a wet grinder. I'm fortunate enough to have a a wet grinder. And everyone, and I agree with this, grinds the rice and the doll separately because they really want to have different textures and they want to grind for different lengths of time to reach the right texture, right?
+
+[33:45] Third, you uh mix them together and there's the fermentation time. Fermentation time is a lot of work on the fermentation time. In the f in the ferment, a lot of things are happening. One, you're creating it's mainly a lacto uh lactobacillus uh thing, but there's other bacteria and yeast in there as well. Um but aside from leavening, you're breaking down starches, um, therefore creating more free sugars.
+
+[34:07] That's gonna increase crispiness. Um lots going on. So the texture and flavor, your pH is going down. The texture and flavor of the dosa uh requires a nice fermentation time. Now, typically a lot of people who ferment in colder weather, like you live near me, uh, so will kind of try to put their their product into a kind of south of India kind of temperature to get the fermentation time uh short.
+
+[34:33] Um anyway, oh, also a little salt, which inhibits uh kind of bad bad bacteria. But back to the important question we haven't chosen is the rice. So if you add a little bit of chickpea, grind it with the doll, that's gonna increase what other some people call crispiness, but one person's crispy is another person's hard. I've noticed recently if you do a bunch of frying testing, which I've done a lot, people have different concepts of what crispy means. Like we all think that if I say crispy and you say crispy, they crispy means the same thing.
+
+[35:02] And it really doesn't. So, like some people think cornmeal batter is crispy. I think cornmeal batter is hard. You know what I'm saying, Nastasia? Okay.
+
+[35:10] Do you like cornmeal batter? No. Why? It's hard. Okay.
+
+[35:13] Uh but some people think it's kind of crispy. Same thing if you have too much chickpea. I like chickpea flour for battering, but too much chickpea flour takes it from being crisp to being kind of hard. You know what I mean? Anyway, so add that if you want the person who wrote the DOSA article in Sirius Eats didn't seem to think that the chickpea helped, but again I wasn't there during testing so I don't know if I agree with the way they tested.
+
+[35:36] The rice is a big component in it. If you really want to do it, it's expensive and it's hard to source but I would use and you don't have to because even in India they use many different kinds of rice. I would try idly rice. So idley rice is a parboiled like medium grain rice that's specifically made for idli flowers but it also works very well for doses. The par boiling is going to affect the texture as is the variety of rice and the exact amylosa millipectin breakdown it has.
+
+[36:03] So give that a shot. Dave remember when you were what were you breaking down at the FCI and they were giving a tour and it was like a it was like what was it? What? Was it a possum or something? And then raccoon.
+
+[36:15] Oh raccoon and then the tour guide the person on tour was like what is he what is he making and then the tour guide said what he was like a baby yeah that happened you know for people who don't like uh don't cook a lot of meat like when you're cooking small mammals they look kind of like yeah that was maybe the worst right yeah the raccoon tasted freaking terrible am I right? We bought a bunch of exotic animals, right? Yeah, from that guy that we won't buy from anymore because we found out he went to jail and he was like, you know, he was doing like really, really terrible stuff. Uh man. Anyway.
+
+[36:58] Well, hopefully those uh hopefully those dosed tricks out. I had some other cooking stuff I really want to talk about, but I can't remember what it oh, by the way, here's a question for I want you guys to ponder because they're gonna kick us off the air pretty soon. So do you think that knowing how to fix things is a blessing or a curse? I think for me it's a curse. Yeah.
+
+[37:21] It's a curse. You know what? If I had just spent more time making money and less time fixing things or building things, where would I be? I who knows where I'd be. I would definitely be cruising around in my in my P100 X Tesla.
+
+[37:35] Yeah. I'm not gonna Dax is like, Dad, we're buying a Tesla, we're buying a Tesla 7C Tesla. I'm like, I don't know, man. I don't know. Maybe just get the three.
+
+[37:43] They're gonna re no the and the I have two kids, two dogs. They're gonna release the cheap SUV next year. But anyway, when we bought the when we moved into our new apartment, we did the plunge and we got the Bosch, the fancy Bosch dishwasher that's real quiet. And for those of you that don't, for those of you that only have 20-year-old dishwashers, which is the way I've lived the majority of my life, you know, oh you have a dishwasher must be nice. Uh the Nastassi and I do that all the time.
+
+[38:13] Oh, dude, getting off at 11 p.m. half day must be nice. So stupid. Like this culture that we have of working so much that you die and belittling people who don't work as much is so toxic. Anyway, um, so my fancy Bosch dishwasher springs a leak and there's like water all over everywhere.
+
+[38:36] And I was like, you know, I know that if I paid someone to fix that, that's like a $400 problem off of an $800 dishwasher, $900 dishwasher. And I was like, man, if I was just rich, I would just pay someone to come do it. I would stay in a freaking hotel until it's fixed. Who cares? But I was like, two years.
+
+[38:53] Two years. Oh fix it. You know what I mean? Then I gotta get on my back, pull the dishwasher out. So what do you guys think?
+
+[39:01] Blessing, curse, blessing, curse. And I tell you what, I feel personally like if I didn't know how to fix things, I would feel not like a whole human being. Remember when the core container fell behind your refridge drawer or your freezer drawer and you couldn't get the core container and you couldn't close the drawer? And I was like, what are you gonna do? And you were like, you gotta buy a new fridge.
+
+[39:23] I mean, for those who who hasn't had some terrible thing happen, and you're like, I'm gonna burn it down and start fresh. You know what I mean? We were at the bar the other day. I never say this. We're at the bar the other day, and uh, and someone, they had just shown up.
+
+[39:40] They hadn't even started like really drinking at our bar yet, right? But they ordered a bunch of food, pounded it, got up. We have two bathrooms, the doors were closed because people were in them, and we made we have the air. There's no place for us to put a trash can outside of our bathroom, right? So this guy just starts unholy puking in our in our bathroom vestibule, but not like okay, I'm better now.
+
+[40:06] Like, blah, blah! Like, like, like, like, like, like exorcist, and like, and and Jack was like, Jack was like, did the guy eat a pot of clam chowder? It's so white. What is this? Oh, that's so disgusting.
+
+[40:22] He's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, I was so traumatized, I had no idea. I had no idea even what to do. I was like, and so, like, it's and so Jerry, who's our runner buzzer for the night, looks at me, he's like, hey, don't sweat it. I work at Equinox.
+
+[40:40] I see this every day. And then, like, he starts cleaning it up. Oh, and I just stand there. I'm giving you the uh the Superman pose. I just stand there, the bouncer pose, like standing in front of it.
+
+[40:50] People come to the bathroom and like, no. It cleans that whole thing out. And and I didn't realize till later, that guy went in, like the kitchen heard it happening, ran out with a fish tub, gave the guy a fish tub, and the guy was the guy had somehow had more stuff inside this. This guy puked his body weight at my bar. Wow.
+
+[41:12] Anyways. Um, anyway, so having Jerry with you, see, that was a situation where I was at a very rarely am I like, I don't know what to do. I might just burn this whole place down and walk away. And that's when you need someone with you who can just take care of business. Cooking issues.
+
+[41:42] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[42:02] Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[42:27] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is presented by Henry's Wine and Spirit. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. This year, we're celebrating 10 years of food radio. For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more.
+
+[0:26] It's been 10 years, and we're just getting started. Find us at HeritageRadion Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know whatever. To like one o'clock from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn.
+
+[0:53] Not joined today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because she's got a fancy meeting with the buzzer fly abutness and can't make it all. But we do have Jack Shram, Wacko Jacko, Crazy Jack, head bartender of existing conditions. How are you doing? I'm doing well. For those of you listening at home, uh Dave doing the intro is just as exciting in person as you imagine it would be.
+
+[1:17] And Matt in the booth, how you doing? Him doing an intro is like it's like staring at a blazing hot sun. You just can't look away, but it's not good for you. Oh no, it's horrible. I I I have a serious condition at this point.
+
+[1:28] Every once in a while, Dax's dirtbag buddies are like, Can you can you do it? And I'm like, no. They make you do the intro? They made me do the intro. An occasional other of the things that cause Dax has been on before, so that's why he knows about it.
+
+[1:44] So then occasionally they'll make me do like that, or like he has one or two of my all of my impressions are the same. Yeah. Oh no, no, you have one voice. It's just a good one. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:55] So but Dax somehow and his dirtbag buddies seem to think that there are different versions of this. And so they're like, do this one, do that one. I'm like, Dax, they're all the same. It's the same guy. It's the same.
+
+[1:59] That means you tricked them. They haven't caught on to the to the gag yet. Yeah, right? Yeah. There's something about Dax Make Your Dad yell.
+
+[2:12] That's just it's so good. I had someone once make me do it on the street. Not not like, you know, someone I know, not like a random person. Like someone I know is like, you know, can you do it? Can you do it on the street?
+
+[2:27] I'm like, no, no. Fine. Of course you do it. Because yeah, yeah, yeah. If I go back and listen to episode one, is it like, was it a fully formed idea and delivery right from the get-go?
+
+[2:39] I don't know. I don't know. There's been like eight billion episodes. That's why at the for those of you, I don't know how this works when you're listening on the internets, but like when we have the earphones on in here in the uh studio, I call it, I guess you call it. The container shipping container that we've been doing this out of since time immemorial, uh, they have a a pre-roll on, and you know, today, for instance, do you know about Henry's Wines and Spirits?
+
+[3:02] Although that's Jack's middle name. Did you know that? It's true. I did not know that part. I do not know Henry's Wines and Spirits.
+
+[3:08] Where is that? Uh is it Bushwick? But it's also on the internet. All right, so listeners, challenge for you. We need you to go back through every episode of Cooking Issues, and we need a Dave Intro power rankings.
+
+[3:21] I want to know the at least the top ten. So at one point, you know, uh, we were like, well, if people are gonna take us serious. Oh, wait, back so the pre-roll, they're like 10 years, and we're just getting started. And I was like, Oh, that's depressing. Yeah, right.
+
+[3:39] So just getting started. Oh my god. Ten years and our best episodes are behind us. Yeah, life is long. Okay, so the uh the uh not really.
+
+[3:48] So then um it's real fast. Trust me, people. Too long. Uh wait, so at one point, you know, years and years ago, I was like, well, maybe we should, you know, in the interest of being taken more seriously, maybe we should do, you know, more of an NPR. So I did a couple NPR style, you know, I imagine only outrage.
+
+[4:11] Well, it was like I I forget like I can't do NP, I can't do like there's always a little more bounce in my voice than you get out of NPR. So it's like, you know, but something like, hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. You know, and everyone was like, no. That makes me wildly uncomfortable.
+
+[4:26] Yeah, yeah. They're like, no, don't so canceled. They're like, go back. Do the weird one. Well, when did you switch from the like the crazy punk rock song intro?
+
+[4:37] You know who you know who wrote that? Who was that? That was Joel Gargano from uh Grano Arso restaurant in uh in Chester, Connecticut, back when he used to live in the haven that is new. There you go. Uh do you know?
+
+[4:49] And we said this in the radio many times. Do you know that I'm the new Haven of Bosses? What what what does that mean? What the hell does that mean? Well, everybody hates working for me, and then when they leave me, they're like, he wasn't so bad.
+
+[5:02] And it's just like living in New Haven. When you everyone who lives in New Haven wants to get out. I thought it was because you were full of like high tier but truly second tier, like B plus tier pizza. I thought because you might die. Uh all of this also is true.
+
+[5:17] Uh by the way, but but just for the record, you know, Jack is, you know, part of the, you know, new uh the the current guard, I should say, not new, but the current guard of kind of food New York food and drink intelligentsia. Okay. Like, you know, went to NYU in food studies, you know, works at what I think is one of the better bots. It's okay. And uh, you know, general man about town spends a, I would say Foolish, stupid.
+
+[5:48] A large chunk of your income on food and beverage. Yes. Yeah. Would rather be homeless as long as he could shower enough to be allowed into the restaurants of his choice. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[6:00] Yeah. Anyway, so um, always smells clean. I will say this. Always smells clean at work. So I I'm guessing he is not actually homeless.
+
+[6:09] In fact, I know his roommate who also used to work at Booker and Dax, now works no man, supposed to come work with us, and Nomad was like, We don't want you to go there, so we're just gonna hide. No no bad talk about Nomad. Nomad's a lot of nomads work in a great place to be. I'm I'm loving the nomad. I'm just saying like they have the ability to offer him so much that he wouldn't come work for us.
+
+[6:28] Yeah. In terms of, I guess, responsibility, I don't know. I don't know. Oh uh yeah. He he's got a good thing going there.
+
+[6:37] He's happy. So his name is Joe Smith. He's not related to any of the Joe Smith characters that you'd see in movies, but I like him. Oh, yeah, great guy. But he's a liar though.
+
+[6:48] He where he comes from, near where he comes from, there is a he says carbonated spring out of the ground that is locally known to you know, in whatever high mountain town he's from in Colorado or whatever in the heck it is. Colorado, right? Yeah. And he's like, Next time I go back, I'll get you some. And oh, and he did not.
+
+[7:07] He did not. Liar. Clearly. Liar, chump, liar. I'll get on him about that.
+
+[7:12] Speaking of, I really wish Nastasia was here because uh some of you may know that both Booker and Dax, my two children, have the same birthday. And yesterday, they both one turned 17 and one turned, they're not twins. Oh, now I feel the worst because I called you and I said, say happy birthday to Booker. But I didn't say say happy birthday to Dax. And it's only because I saw things on the social media, like, what the hell, Nastasia?
+
+[7:36] You're just gonna blow up Booker. Well not I know that Booker worked for her, but still. Well, and to be fair, so they used to have their party on the same day. So it used to be what I would do is I would have a I would have a make your own pizza party, and everyone make their own pizzas, and you know, my oven used to get up to like it's a long, I also I haven't talked about this on air. I had to I had to unhot rod my oven, and it was it was freaking depressing.
+
+[8:00] For those of you out there with regular ovens, I feel your pain now. You know, like can you fill me in very quickly on what you had done? Oh, had done what he did. What I had did. So like uh what had happened was uh I I completely bypassed, well, first of all, also known to some people who actually you know listen to like the deep backlogs of here, um the moron that installed my wife did not allow me to do the plumbing in my new place, okay?
+
+[8:33] New meaning like five years old, right? Now, uh a number of things really pissed me off. And if any of you are gonna get plumbing done, quarter turn valves. That's the one thing I'm gonna say to you. Oh, yeah.
+
+[8:44] Quarter turn valves. Now you don't have to have the ugly ones with the giant handles. They make small angle stops with quarter turn valves. But at some point in your life, unless you're a complete garbage person who never uses their equipment, never uses faucets. At some point in your life, you're going to have something break.
+
+[9:03] And I'm assuming that you're the kind of person that doesn't just have the stock thing out of the Home Depot that you can replace in 20 seconds that you have something decent that you have to wait a day or two to fix, or maybe you don't have, you know, uh 500 bucks to have someone show up and fix your Bosch dishwasher or you know, 1200 bucks to get a new one brought the next day. You know, I'm just guessing. What you're gonna want to do is be able to turn your water off and on. Now, valves, the regular old twisty ones with the crappy, with the crappy plastic uh shaft that you have the oval shape that you turn over and over again. I have never met one that hasn't broken.
+
+[9:40] I have never met one that hasn't broken. Here's why. They suck. They were invented by a holes and perpetrated on us because the person who invented them hates people and knows this one fact. They won't break year one or year two.
+
+[9:55] But that's not when your other stuff's gonna break. It's the long con. It's the long con. They know they're laughing. There's a group of plumbers sitting down somewhere day drinking right now, laughing at the fact that the thing that they installed in your house 10 years ago is currently shafting you, right?
+
+[10:12] And this is why I hate but because listen to this people, quarter turn valves are on average, you ready for it? 50 cents to one dollar more apiece. 50 cents to one dollar more apiece. And how much an hour are you paying that plumber to put that in? Okay, that's an aside.
+
+[10:28] So I don't even know how I got into this. We were talking about plumbing. Oh, oh, how much? So he the guy had not was not used to installing commercial. For those of you that know, I bought a wolf oven.
+
+[10:38] I shouldn't probably say this is gonna be used against me someday in a court of law, but I bought a wolf, I bought a wolf oven specifically because wolf ovens make both commercial ranges and home ranges. And if someone came in and saw my range, I could plausibly say it's wolf. It's wolf. It's a home range. What do you Oh my God.
+
+[10:56] What do you mean? What? I had no idea. How could I me, I have possibly known. It's a home range.
+
+[11:03] You know what I mean? Like that's that's what I was, you know, in my mind singing. So I said to the plumber guy, I was like, hey, plumber guy, I'm not doing gas anymore. Too many people have blown. This is after a couple buildings had just blown up.
+
+[11:17] And uh I said to him, Guy, listen, this is a commercial range, not a residential range. And what that means is, and I handed him the regulator, you must install this regulator between the gas line and the range, right? Preferably one for the oven and one for the range, so that uh, you know, so that it regulates the pressure because commercial ovens need that, right? Yeah, and he didn't. He just didn't do it.
+
+[11:44] And so what that meant was is that that I had the flames coming out of my uh range were prepos just preposterous. Preposterous. Like uh, I used to I I have a collection of like nine uh Tolst you know Dol Sotes, the uh Korean stone bowls. Yeah, yeah. I've had them for decades.
+
+[12:04] I love them. Everyone should own them. If you don't own, here's what you do. Go buy one. Just buy well, if you like eating by yourself and you're a hermit, buy one.
+
+[12:15] Otherwise, buy two. Buy two. Buy four. Well, but you might not know you like it. Uh you need to have a gas range.
+
+[12:21] Oh. Well, then I'm out, unfortunately. Well, it's the worst thing about my apartment. You need to have a really bad thing. Right.
+
+[12:26] Well, we'll figure it out. Although maybe they work on it. I don't know if they're magnetic. I don't think they are. I don't think they'll work on induction.
+
+[12:31] We can work on it. We'll figure out a way to do this. It's a little bit more than a little bit more. Yeah, I got electric. We'll make an electric tulso hot box.
+
+[12:37] I want to make a hot box for tulsots. Anyway, so the point is you heat these suckers up and you need a good kind of a flame to heat them up to about 600 degrees, is what I do. You pour a little bit of oil in the bottom, rice, smash, sauce, arrange the things in a circle, crack eggs, herbs over the top, done. You would not believe how many people can't understand that simple flow. I'm like, this bowl is round.
+
+[13:01] You are going to put rice in, smash it as though it was mashed potatoes out, sauce, stuff around in piles so that it looks like a nice composed salad y kind of thing. Egg in middle. Is there another way that you would arrange that bowl? Egg on the bottom. Absolute inverse.
+
+[13:23] Yeah, but that no, you can't. No, but then you end up with mound on the top. You can't? Then you end up with surprise. No, but it would be a hard one.
+
+[13:30] No, it's a delicious delicious surprise with carbon on the bottom. With sad rice that's dry and not crispy. Listen, if the people involved weren't my family, I would have choice words to say about them. But the point being that the flames were so high in this damn range that uh it would heat up six. I I hit up six stone bowls in like five minutes flat.
+
+[13:53] From from from room temperature to 612 on the IR thermometer on the thing. I was like, I was like, the thing would rip. It would rip so hard, Jack. Rip so hard that uh that I used to uh trip the thermals in my uh vent, in my hood vent. That's how hard this sucker ripped.
+
+[14:12] You could stick your hand up in my kitchen and be like, ooh, that's that's warm. You know what I mean? Like, and so what I what I did was is that now the problem with that, by the way, and the reason why it's not a good idea, safety, yeah, blah, blah, blah. But the reason. Yeah, jerks.
+
+[14:33] But the jerks, jerks, but the reason is that um because there wasn't a regulator on it, it was putting out maximum gas. So if you have something set to a certain level and you turn on another burner, there's no more gas being supplied. And so you'll get a drop or you'll get a flame out, or at low thing, it wasn't able to be stable. No, no gas height was stable. So when you install a regulator, it supplies a constant pressure of gas to the oven, no matter what the demand is, because unlike a residential stove where I have a tiny pipe going to all the burners, I got a big old pipe going to all my burners, right?
+
+[15:11] And you're supposed to regulate the pressure into them such that the pressure's always the same. So my range was no good for anything other than toll sods, but what I did was I was like, these thermometer, uh, the thermostats in an oven, you really shouldn't hack it the thermostat in the oven. The way to deal with a thermostat in an oven is to just bypass it entirely. So what I did was is I put, yes, I'm about to use this term again, a quarter turn gas valve, right? Is that how you controlled the temperature of your oven?
+
+[15:41] Well, so what I did was is that in uh my my my last apartment, which I had for over a decade, my oven was incredibly incomplicated, uh complicated. It was completely electronically controlled with uh three different with three different elements, one gas, two electric, run off of a multi-point Watlow PID controller, like completely hardcore with a gas thermal, you know, a gas uh um valve uh solenoid valve, click, click, like it was like hardcore. And every time people would come over, your oven's so hard to use. I don't understand your oven. Why can't you have a normal oven?
+
+[16:22] I was like, why can't you learn to use a bottle PID controller? Jerk! And why not just have you help them set the oven to whatever come to your house and just do whatever they want with your oven. People complain all the time. People come to your house with potlucks, whatever.
+
+[16:36] They're like, I just want to heat this casserole. How do I do it? Your oven. I'm like, duh! Don't touch my oven.
+
+[16:42] I was like, well, that's the thing, right? And so I just got sick of it. And you know, and also Jen was like, even my wife was like, this oven's ridiculous. Can't you just have like a normal person oven? So and then and then new one came around.
+
+[16:54] I'm like, you know what? Fine, fine, fine. Here's what's gonna happen. There's gonna be the thermostat. I'm not gonna bypass the uh the gas safety, right?
+
+[17:04] So there's a gas safety in the bottom in case your pilot blows out, it turns off the oven. Whatever. I'm leaving that as is. That seems like a good one to leave. Good one, right?
+
+[17:13] So that but then what I'm what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna put uh a sh like a uh a shunt, a bypass valve. So you know, like people that bypass their mufflers, they have like a yeah, so it's like that, but for your gas. So I'm gonna- You are Will Farrell's character from old school. Wow, I don't even it's a long time. So anyway, so what happened is I just had this quarter-turn valve, and and then I could either use the thermostat like a normal person, or I could be like, oh yeah.
+
+[17:39] And just go. And then like my oven, if I wanted it to, I throttled it with that, with that valve. Yeah. Uh whatever. You know what I mean?
+
+[17:44] Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Lined with stones.
+
+[17:51] And like because there's so much gas dumping into that thing. See, i if you have a small amount of gas in your in your oven and you put too much rock into your oven, it just doesn't have the ability to heat that kind of thermal mass up to the temperature you want in a reasonable amount of time. Yeah. It's gonna take hours. I did not have that problem.
+
+[18:10] You know what I mean? But like uh, you know, like in Raiders of the Lost Ark when uh when the when the arc is on the Nazi ship and the swastika burns out because God like like you know, wood burns the side of the crate. Yeah, that kind of started happening to the cabinets that were near the oven. So Jen was like, no, and we got in trouble when the gas got shut down, so I unhot rodted it, put it back on normal thermostat, and I added the proper regulator to it. So now it's a normal stock commercial oven, so it does get up to like 500 degrees.
+
+[18:41] But 500 degrees. What are you gonna do with that? Well, Monday, what in pizza land, what am I gonna do with 500 degrees? Nothing. Do you know what I had to do?
+
+[18:48] First of all, what I'm used to is I cheat, by the way. I've said this before. When I make a pizza, I cheat. So and and what do I mean by I cheat? Like, I don't want to sit there and if you're a talented, what do you call them?
+
+[18:59] What's the word pizza? Pizza Iolo. Pizza Iola. If you're talented, one of these weasels, right? You can you can make a pizza and like leave it there for a while, then pick it up on a peel and put it into your oven, right?
+
+[19:10] But yeah, I'm not that guy. I don't do it that often. So I used to have the problem, I don't like a a boat ton of crap on the bottom of my pizza. Yeah. Right.
+
+[19:21] And I like to use a fairly wet dough, and so I would always run into if I let a pizza stay there too long, it's staying there forever. It would yeah, it would stick. Yeah. Or the worst is getting it off the peel and you go shagunk into the oven and it goes and you're like, ah, right? It's garbage.
+
+[19:37] It's garbage. So my cheat, my cheat, I think I've said this on the air before, is I buy the uh I buy the parchment paper and I just throw it right on the parchment paper with no release. Here's the secret though, if you're using a high temperature oven, ready for the secret? Yes. What you gotta do is you gotta trim like with within like uh you know an eighth to a quarter around the crust with shears it'll go z just like cut off the paper.
+
+[20:04] If you leave the paper flapping in the breeze, it will catch on fire. It'll catch on fire. Yeah. Uh if you don't, it'll char a little around the edges, but it's not a big deal. And if my if your oven's really ripping hot, which mine used to be, what I would do is like, you know, 40 seconds into the cook, I would I would just pull a peel and pull the paper and everything's good.
+
+[20:23] Okay. And so, you know, I wasn't doing uh, you know, DOP style because frankly, that's not the style I do. I like it kind of more cooked all the way through. Yeah, a little bit more creaspish, you know what I mean? I mean, not like you know, cracker crisp, not grupo style, but you know what I'm saying.
+
+[20:41] Like anyway, so but uh I know a pizza shouldn't take more than two minutes, you know, three minutes to cook. Yeah, these pizzas were taking forever, Jack. So much so that I so much so that I have a brevel oven, brevel toaster oven. So I would do the pre cook, zip them out, and then toss them into the toaster oven on toast to finish while I was throwing the next one in because who has that kind of time to wait? Who's gonna wait seven minutes for a pie?
+
+[21:09] No one. And so then the next thing I'm gonna have to do is I'm gonna have to start making them giant and get a big peel. You know, right now my peel is maybe only 14 inches across or something like this, but I'm gonna need to make pizzas the size of the house, you know, the size of a full sheet tray. If I if everyone's gotta wait like 10 minutes of pizza. Like cook it like a pan pizza.
+
+[21:32] I guess I could. You could I mean I guess that's a a valid style. I guess. Anyway, so that's what I used to do for their birthday parties was uh the the thing, and then every time Jim would be like, Don't make too much smoke this time. Like, the smoke is what the smoke is.
+
+[21:46] Yeah, it is what it is. No, just become Prince Street pizza in your home. Yeah, well, with the giant cup with the cup cupperoni cup, yeah, yeah. The cupperoni. I had it once.
+
+[21:55] You need to reheat that sucker when it's getting doughy and in when you're gonna be able to do it. Oh, it's real sad. No, but you that's why you just eat it standing outside in front of the shop. Yeah, but what what are your thoughts on foods? I mean pizza should be a food that I think stays good over.
+
+[22:10] I understand that certain things have a window. Yes, right. But certain things, the window is so small that I think it impugns the entire variety of food. Tempura, for instance. Yeah.
+
+[22:22] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I like tempura. I say this and I've gotten people yelled at me many times. Uh, but I'm not like that's not to me like the be-all end-all of frying.
+
+[22:31] No, it's good. It's fine. But it has to be handed to you from the fryer and you need to eat it. Yeah, you need to burn your mouth, you hit it, and then the hot juice hits your mouth and you're burnt, and you're like, That's why you gotta be like myself, and I'm assuming you, where you've never waited for food to cool for your entire life, so you just have a layer of just horrifying mangled skin in your mouth, so you just aren't affected by temperature. I know, but it is unpleasant.
+
+[22:53] My hands can still tolerate more than my mouth. That's funny because I am the opposite. It's gotten so bad that my mouth can tolerate more than my hands. This is because you've taken ramen eating too seriously, and you've consistently burned your mouth on ramen. It's not just ramen.
+
+[23:08] It's actually mostly pizza because I'd get the full cheese glue to the roof. That's the worst. The flap doodle that the second uvula of skin hanging down from the top of your mouth. Oh, back to pizza. I will say this.
+
+[23:19] Uh this is how we got into this. Uh, as one of the uh, you know, uh older generation of pizza eaters, back in the in the early 90s, in the 80s and early 90s, New Haven pizza was better than anything else you could get. Yeah. In other words, and what do I mean by that? It was New York style, but better.
+
+[23:39] It was a better, not like New York dollar slice stuff. Because nobody was doing it down here. Right. It did what what happened is is that the world grew around them and they did not. Still a very high quality pie.
+
+[23:51] Like Frank Pepe's was great when we went. It's fine. Yeah. Uh here's uh here's here's here's another thing I will say, and I I I don't think I mentioned this last week, but I have a line on the cheese steamer. Ooh.
+
+[24:03] For those of you that don't know Connecticut, Connecticut is the land of the steamed cheese. Forget the steamed cheese burger. I have no use for it, but steamed cheese makes halloumi look like a joke cheese. Like, you like halloomie jack? Yeah, it's good.
+
+[24:18] Matt, you like halloumi? Yes, sir. Halloumi good cheese, right? That's like in that the motto halloomy good cheese. You like queso para frieir?
+
+[24:24] Yeah. Yeah. Either with or without a natto, although mostly without. Yeah. I like cheeses that are good.
+
+[24:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are good fried. But steamed cheese, see, people are like, why don't you serve halloomie? And I'm like, well, because I don't frankly trust the people I'm serving it to. Right?
+
+[24:41] They're not gonna eat it fast. They're not gonna eat it fast. And when Halloumi cools down, I get real sad. Yeah. You know, so I have a pile of rubber in front of me.
+
+[24:48] Yeah, halloumi, for those of you that don't know Halloumi, get to know Halloumi. Uh full stop. Yeah, that means or you know, if you want to stay, you know, on this side of the water, get yourself some queso parafruit. And these are, you know, salted cheeses that have the benefit that they get soft and have a great texture, but they don't melt out completely. Now we're not talking like fried mozzarella, which melts and you're using a bread encasing to keep it together.
+
+[25:10] We're talking about the cheese itself can be grilled or pan fried, yeah, and it gets like a crispy brown outside, slightly sweet, awesome, like texture on the inside, little oil on top, not that it necessarily needs it, but I like a little salt, a little some stuff. Good. Good. Great, good. Love it.
+
+[25:28] Yeah. Great. But when you cool it down, I hate it. Now, it gets squeaky, but not in the good cheese curd squeak way. You're like, man, I wish I had eaten this when it was hot.
+
+[25:43] Yep. So if you are doing this, and you can control how fast you eat, because presumably you can, then I'm all for it. But people at the uh at the bar, didn't someone say why don't we serve Haloumi? And I looked at them, I was like, I do not trust our guests to eat Haloumi. And I don't trust them not to blame us.
+
+[26:06] For oh, this product isn't good. It's like, well, you waited 10 minutes to take the first bite. Right. Jerk! Yeah, but uh and there are many things that I don't serve for that for that reason.
+
+[26:17] Uh it's a just a lack of trust I have. And the same thing goes for uh, like same thing goes for we this is like a multifacet. Well we've gotten to this argument from many ways, but the point being that the steamed cheese that they make in Connecticut is made with a mild I hate to use the word cheddar because it's not really mean whatever. Maybe the curd was cheddared in a technical sense, but you know what I mean? Because it's a technical term, people.
+
+[26:41] Uh but it, you know, they they steam it and it gets puffy, and then when it cools down, it just turns back into cheese again. It doesn't turn into an abomination. So Connecticut steamed cheese is I think fantastic. And I I I have a line on the cheese steamer. Is there a restaurant in Connecticut that's doing the steamed cheese but a griddled burger?
+
+[27:01] Or do they only steam the burgers and the cheese? People who live in uh South Central Connecticut. Because that's the answer. That that you know what, Jack? You you are a hundred percent correct.
+
+[27:16] Yeah, steam the cheese and then a uh flat top burger. I think Kenji Lopet Lopez Alt might have mentioned this once, although I got in a huge argument with him yesterday regarding MSG. But uh, I mean, not personally, it was over Twitter, nothing's real over Twitter. Yeah, but uh he might have mentioned that once, but that is the answer. Yeah.
+
+[27:36] Steam cheese is the shiz knit. It's delicious, it's great. Perfect texture for a burger. Yeah, fantastic. Um, so I used to do the pizza party, the make your own pizza thing.
+
+[27:47] Kids liked making their own pizzas, you can make a reasonable size, blah, blah, blah, it's good. But Booker doesn't like homemade pizza because I would add stuff to the sauce, like you know, I always grind anchovies or whatever. You want it to taste? Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Oh my god, I mean did I tell you about the pizza I made?
+
+[28:02] Which one? Okay, yes, you did, but you just oh my god, oh my god. People, for those of you that don't know, uh this is the best name of any product ever. Neonata. Neonata, which means newborn.
+
+[28:16] Oh newborn. It's like a it's like a Calabrian fish paste, but it's not a paste of large fish. It's tiny fish in oil and red pepper. Yeah, Calabrian chilies. Yeah.
+
+[28:31] So it's Calabrian chilies and tiny, like small, like smaller than white bait, like tiny, tiny fish. I would say new newborn fish. There you go. Neonata. And neonata is there are condiments, and then there's neonata.
+
+[28:49] Right. And we serve it at the bar, but the and you can buy it in Brooklyn by the case, which I did. So I bought a case for the bar, a case for myself, and a case for my stepfather for Christmas. And we use it, uh, you have to come buy our you know, our palm deragon, our delicious fried mashed potato fritters, which are great, by the way. And they come from Belgium, but these idiots in Belgium that tell the story.
+
+[29:10] Matt, have you heard this yet? No. So these idiots in Belgium, they're not idiots, they're just morons. They're just cult culturally idiots, jerks. So they made these potato croquettes, which is really what they are.
+
+[29:22] It's potato, on it's like mashed potato and onion, uh, piped and fried. So what is that? Delicious. Yeah, but right, but it's uh so it has ridges in the in the tube shape, right? So they're little, they're little, they're narrower than a tater tot and and long er.
+
+[29:41] Not long, long gurr, yeah than a tater tot. Um actually not that much longer than a tater tot, they're just narrower. You're looking at like a a two-inch tube. Like three-eighths of an inch wide. Yeah, yeah, ish.
+
+[29:54] Okay. So you you guys getting the picture. Yeah. So point is that there's ridges in the side of the tube. So these Belgians, these Belgians who make it, and by the way, the reason we sell these is because we didn't want to invest the labor to do the French fries.
+
+[30:12] And I couldn't bu find a frozen fry that I thought was acceptable. And not only that, but my partner Don and I don't even agree on what a good French fry is. So much so that like I had second thoughts about opening the bar with Don because it got bad. Yeah, I mean, and we're gonna have the French fry wars. If anyone out there is a potato farmer, like the plan is this.
+
+[30:35] Don believes that a thin French fry, like almost a shoestring fry, is what a good fry is. And I'm like, at that point, just by like Andy Capp's sack of fake fries, it's like shoestring fries out of right out of the fryer, like doused in some sort of like, you know, what Jack, what's your favorite agra dolce? Uh Heinz tomato ketchup. There you go. The greatest aggro dolce.
+
+[31:02] You know, or or like in mayonnaise or something like this is good, but when they cool off, they kind of suck, right? And he accuses me, therefore, uh, because I think that those are not the good fry of wanting giant steak fries, which I also think are bad. Yeah. I mean, I enjoy all fried potato products, but to me, the ultimate French fry is is between between and including, so greater than or equal to three eighths of an inch and less than or equal to uh half of an inch in cross section. That is where I am.
+
+[31:37] And for those of you that do millimeters, you know, multiply uh, you know, multiply by 25.4. Uh, but the point is that you know, to me, those French fries can exhibit a nice inner texture of cooked potato, right? And I appreciate it. Right. And can have a crispy exterior, right?
+
+[31:59] And you get everything, not just like crunch. Crunch, I'll get a potato chip or the aforementioned Andy Cap fries, which I eat them, but they're garbage. Yeah, well, yeah. But I eat them. Yeah, they're good.
+
+[32:10] Yeah. Anyway. So uh we could not agree even on the style of fries. So what we're gonna do, uh, this is I say we're gonna do this. We want to do this, but you know, if we get like a minute, you know, free.
+
+[32:23] We want to find a potato farmer, maybe in Idaho, I don't know. We want to buy this farmer's entire field of potatoes, right? For the year, or a field. Yeah, like we go to this person, we're like, yeah, yo, how about we buy like I don't know, like four acres? I don't know.
+
+[32:40] I don't know. I don't even know how many we don't know what yields on. I don't know how many pounds per. But I do know that with my French fry techniques, the yield of French fry off of potatoes is roughly 50% because you get a lot of moisture loss on the process. Anyways, so buy them, and then we hire one of the two big firms to process it the way we want.
+
+[33:00] And then those, and but we do them two ways, Don style and Dave style, and then we just see who's fry reign supreme. For those of you who, you know, were uh what's it what was that called? Uh most extreme elimination training. No, I oh yeah, the original, yeah, the original. Yeah.
+
+[33:16] Anyways, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh so good. Assassin's the plan. So in the meantime, Josh, Shorty, our chef, found us because he knows these Belgian weasels that did the potatoes for Joe Robichamp back when Joe Robichon was alive and still doing his bondage SM stuff. Great chef.
+
+[33:33] Never had his food, though. Me neither. Never went to one of Robichon's restaurants where he was working. I knew some of the people that work for him. Anyway, it doesn't matter.
+
+[33:40] Weird dude, though, right? I don't, I honestly don't know. Anyway, Joe. Like he had a good name, though, right? I appreciate anyone who's uh mashed potatoes are equal parts potatoes and butter.
+
+[33:51] Yeah, yeah, and uh and uh Bruno Gusot, you know, Bruno Gusseau, the uh the Sous vide uh the father of Jusqueton, low temperature cooking, as he calls it, sous vide. Uh he um he used to work he one of the first projects he did with high-end food was for jouet robouchon uh for the SAF train. Anyway, I digress as usual. So this potato company out of Belgium made the made the potatoes for Joe Robichon when he wasn't you know making them himself, I guess. Uh and they make this potato tube.
+
+[34:26] Now here's back there's a long end around to two things. I still have to talk about the pizza I made. And secondly, just so you just so you know, I keep in my head somewhat what we're talking about. These potatoes, they call them churros. Now they are not churros, they are that shape.
+
+[34:46] Well, kind of. They are the shape of that in the sense that stuff that you put out of a uh Play-Doh Fuzzy Pumper Barber Beauty shop are actual dreadlocks. They're not. They're small extrusions of things. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:00] Or like, you know what I mean? It's like they are they are not the right size for a churro, and they are not made of dough. They're not made of a flour-based dough. It's a fried item extruded from a star tip. That's right.
+
+[35:15] Is icing a churro? Is it is icing fried? I don't know. It has some of the criteria of it. The only criteria it doesn't have is uh there's actually more starch.
+
+[35:26] Well, that's not true, there's potato starch, but there's cornstarch in a uh in the I don't know. You're right on the fry. I could make a fried icing. Is it then a churro? If you if there's some cinnamon involved, I I you yes.
+
+[35:42] If I pipe, if I if a hot dog has ridges, is it a churro? How many things can we churro? Let's do it. Nothing. Let's do it.
+
+[35:52] They're not churros is my point. Like, they shouldn't be called churros. And so Don calls them palm d'aragon, is a nod to our friend John Darragon, who has Who is a churro aficionado? Let's just leave it as churro aficionado. So anyway, so uh we make a neonata back to the pizza.
+
+[36:09] We make a neonata sauce that we serve with these at the bar so you could taste neonata if you don't want to bother sourcing it because it's it's pretty hard to source right now unless you go to this one store, Calluccio Brothers in in Brooklyn. Don't buy it all. If you buy it all and I can't buy it anymore, I will ask them who bought it, I will find you and kill you. But um there it is. Yeah, but this sauce, I put like half of a jar on it on the pizza in lieu of sauce.
+
+[36:34] That is an intense amount of neonata. I mean, not for you know, yeah, non-jamokes, but it's for a jamok. And then and then I know, I know, I don't want to hear about it. You know, cheese and fish. You know what?
+
+[36:46] Uh I mean, I grew up with Catholics, I'm not Catholic, and I don't believe in these Lenten law things. So I put a little parmesan on top, yeah, cooked it off, and then fried egg, fried egg, fried egg, fried egg, Friday. Oh my God. Oh my. That was the money pizza.
+
+[36:59] Even Dax was like, Dad, that's the money. That's the money pizza. That's the money pizza. So I think we actually made it back to where we needed to uh discuss that. I should get to some of the questions that were on the air.
+
+[37:16] Oh, and then for Booker, though, he doesn't like pizza, as I said, so I had to do a sushi party for him. And Nastasia came over to the party, which is how you heard about it. Yeah. Long end around to where we got from. And so I wanted to have her on today.
+
+[37:30] By the way, last night, do you know that she did a vegan dinner at I saw that? She did a vegan dinner at the beard house. So for those of you that have always wondered what Nastasia Lopez's vegan face looks like. She had to do a vegan dinner and she posted on her Instagram account a picture of her with what she calls is her vegan face. And I have to say, there is a sous of vegan face in this in this picture.
+
+[37:53] However, there is also a healthy dose of hate and rage. Yeah. Because vegan face is usually just disgust. You don't see vegan face plus inner rage and hate at the same picture. So if you want to see what that face of Nastasia Lopez looks like, just check out her Instagram.
+
+[38:10] And I realized that you might have to know her a little while before you even understood like kind of like what was going on behind the literal facade. Yeah. Oh. So anyway, so I was like, hey, uh, uh, she I was like, so what do you know, how's this sushi? She's like because I made the rice, right?
+
+[38:30] I, you know, I was she was like, not good. I was like, why? Too much vinegar tastes like Jiro. Jerk. And I was like, I was like, well tastes like Jiro is an insult.
+
+[38:44] Yeah, I know. I was like, so strong. It did not taste like Jiro people. It maybe had more vinegar than she is used to, but it wasn't like hard kernel center, like sucking on a sucking on a warhead. Anyway.
+
+[38:58] Oh, look at this Jiro hatred. Oh my god, her Jiro hatred was so strong. Oh man. Loved it. Loved it.
+
+[39:06] Well, you know what? I think also she was just bent that she felt that like Jiro and I both rushed her at that meal. And you know, Mark was having such gastrointestinal distress because of um because he had just gotten back from getting food poisoned. Oof. This episode is presented by Henry's Wine and Spirit, a go-to shop for anyone interested in natural wines and boutique spirits.
+
+[39:35] There's a large selection of everything from orange wines, pet gnats, and reds from around the world. Whether visiting the shop in person or online, looking for a gift for a loved one or that everyday dependable bottle, you're sure to find lots of interesting wines at Henry's. There's free shipping on orders over $300 on the website, Henry's dot nyc, and case discounts when you visit the store located in Bushwick. Cheers. My name is Jennifer Leutzi, and I'm the host of Tech Bites, where we talk to innovators and influencers in the food tech space.
+
+[40:14] You can find Tech Bites wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radio Network.org. Thanks for listening. Uh, question in from Marcel Reed Jacques from the Hudson Valley. Um, who, by the way, uh is as a PS for because Nastasia likes to keep track of this stuff, lives with his girlfriend, and they buy and are uh gifted equal amounts of kitchen equipment. So you're looking at kitchen equipment parity across the couple, which I that's good, which I appreciate.
+
+[40:43] Uh and this person mistakenly says, Hope I can get myself a wine Santa soon. Watch out what you ask for. That's not a mistake. That's not a mistake. They meant that.
+
+[40:53] Yeah. They don't understand the ramifications, the implications yet. Yeah. Okay, so to the question. Dave recommends chilling meat after sous vide before the sear off so that it doesn't overcooked and retains its juices.
+
+[41:05] I think it's more complicated. We'll get into it. However, I frequently struggle with getting the final temperature hot enough when doing it this way. Uh, for instance, tonight I seared a thick sirloin steak after uh sous vide and chill for steak a poiv. Oh my god, I haven't had steak a poiv in a long time.
+
+[41:19] Yeah, I love steak a poiv. I always put pepper in my steak, but like with the sauce with the with the uh steak a pois sauce. I always just go like if I if I have the option to you know choose your sauce at the steak, I never go up. But you should I gotta go back. Do you know uh can I tell you a steak a poiv piece of information?
+
+[41:36] Yes, you can. I had steak up poiv the night I was engaged. Wow to my wife. Where? Uh at a place called Herald's, which is no longer in business.
+
+[41:44] It was run by he was front of house, his wife was back of house after the original chef, they both run it, and the original chef had died, or it was uh 80 something, he quit. She took over back of house, he ran front of house. Fantastic service, fantastic place. He was, I believe, I think both of them were Viennese, and they used to get recent CIA grads. This is in uh upstate New York in Stormville, and then I guess he died, and so they closed the place down.
+
+[42:08] Oh, that's too bad. Or she died. I think they're both dead now. But yeah, I when I graduated college, I went there. When I got engaged, I went there.
+
+[42:14] This was the guy that uh taught me this lesson about service. Um so I try to tell people at the bar, they don't really. Here's a problem if you work in service. You don't take the time to understand what other people are feeling, right? So you have an interaction with a bunch of uh, you know, guests when they come in.
+
+[42:34] It's hard for you to put yourself in their position and realize that they're in a major transition, that they don't understand the way your system operates, yeah, that you know they want to feel special. Here's what this guy did to make me feel special. I called him with an inappropriate request. I called him because Valentine's Day had fallen through, and I got engaged on Valentine's Day P. S.
+
+[42:52] And um, so I wanted to take Jen to a nice place. It fell through, so I called him, being like, because I figured it's upstate New York, how busy can they be? And so I said, you know, is there any way I can get in? It was like a couple days in. And then he was like, no.
+
+[43:07] But he didn't say no. What he said was he said, there's nothing I would like more than for you to come to my restaurant on Valentine's Day. But if you were my own brother, I could not get you a table. We are so full. I'm so sorry, sir.
+
+[43:21] Then I was like, what can you say at that point? Nothing. Yeah. See? He took into account the fact that he realized that I really wanted to go.
+
+[43:29] Yeah. And he impressed on me that he really wanted me to come, but there was really nothing he could do about it. And he's kept kept your business, I'm assuming. Yeah. Until the day he died.
+
+[43:40] Yeah. Anyway, so back to Steak Upwell. By the time the sauce had been made in the pan to drizzle over the steak, the steak was cold. Uh steak was cold. It was delicious, but sadly cold.
+
+[43:51] How do you recommend? Sadly cold. How do you recommend? That's like Nastasia's motto. Um, she's happily cold.
+
+[43:58] The people around her are sadly frigid. How do you recommend figuring out how to get that serving temperature right without overcooking? And is there a recommendation serving temperature that can be measured with a thermometer amount of time? Thanks. This is an interesting question.
+
+[44:14] One of the main problems with low temp cooking in general is this not wanting to overshoot, but getting the getting the temperature warm enough, especially on a sear, um, especially on steak that you don't want to overcook it. There's a number of ways you can accomplish it. One, you can uh, and this is what I normally do on a steak, is you don't want to do low temperature on too thin a steak. They just they just move too quickly one way or the other. They get cold too fast, they get warm too fast.
+
+[44:43] It's like a skirt just cooked fast and hot. It's delicious. Although when I do when I do skirt, here's what I do on skirt to tenderize it a little bit, I'll long cook it low, take it all the way down to fridge temp, pull it from the fridge, and then treat it like a raw skirt steak, and then it's not chewy on the inside. It's always at least cooked, but you're not ever gonna overcook it because you're cooking it like a normal steak. Yeah.
+
+[45:05] So all right. Uh, but on uh on a thicker steak, also, so that you don't overcook on the sear, it helps to pre-sear uh your meat before you do the long cook because it means that you'll get um a level of crust much faster on the second sear than you would if you were going from no sear. That is the reason. There's also some flavor development during the cook, but the one of the main reasons is is that your second sear, which you must do after you cook it, it's going to get a much crisper, nicer crust much faster. Okay.
+
+[45:36] That's the thing people miss. They're like, should I sear it before? Should I sear after? Both jerk. But if you have to do one, do it after.
+
+[45:42] But if you can do it before, it is helpful. Now, if you have the time, uh, get a thick enough steak, a thick enough steak, and I can post some point if I have um I the program's broken, but I can I can try to find it again. Um, like how much of a temperature rise you get on a thick steak. You get very much less temperature rise on a thick steak than on a thin steak. So in general, I try to shoot thicker than an inch.
+
+[46:05] If you're thicker than an inch, usually you can do a sear and get away with it. What I do is is you can either take it directly from your this is kind of a pain in the ass when I'm about to tell you, you but pain in the butt. You can either take it in the bag and actually put it into cold water for two minutes. Let's say you're gonna sear it for two minutes. If you put it in cold water for two minutes and force chill the outside, you then when you sear it, you're not overcooking the center too much.
+
+[46:30] So you can take it from cooking temperature, force chill it in cold water, like cold cold water for two minutes, and then sear two minutes on a side and you'll be even again. But it takes some practice. I wouldn't do this, I wouldn't do this, you know, for a lot of people. It's also a pain to do for a lot of people. It's more of a two-person thing.
+
+[46:48] The other thing you can do is this. Um, my the way I cook steaks now, especially rib ribeye, which is my favorite steak to cook, is I'll ramp it up to 55, right? I'll take it up to 55, I'll hold it at 55 for only like 40 minutes, 45 minutes. And then I'll drop it to, I actually drop it to 50. Sh I drop it to 50.
+
+[47:11] But if you're asking me, I drop it to 52, but I actually drop it to 50. And then I hold it 52, 50. I hold it there for uh like let's say I hold it at 52. I'll hold it at 52 for like three or four hours, right? The whole thing now is at 52.
+
+[47:27] It has gotten up. If you cook it for an hour, hour 50, depends on the thickness of the steak, to get the middle of the steak up to 55. I don't actually like to let it ride at 55 anymore because I think it takes it to a different place in texture. I want it to touch 55, like touch 55, and then I want to drop it down to 52 or so, let it ride at 52, and then drop it down to 5250. If it's a 50, if the whole sucker's at 50, you're not and it's over an inch thick, like an inch and a quarter thick, you're not gonna overcook the center on the sear.
+
+[47:57] So then just pulling it, letting it rest for just a minute while you're getting ready, then searing it and doing the sauce should work. So this is how I would get around it. The other thing you can do is this if you have a uh I don't know, Breville toaster oven or something like this, uh that can hold a constant like 140, it takes a w a long time for a thick steak to overcook when it's in a warming oven. So what you can do is you can take it to the temperature you want to sear it at or even sear it, and then throw it in like a 140, 150 oven, and the inside's not gonna cool off anymore, but it's really not gonna overcook in the amount of time it takes you to do a pan sauce. What do you think?
+
+[48:31] Good, great. All right. Uh they're gonna kick me off soon, but I had another low temperature related question. I have a question about, this is from John. I have a question about pressure canning.
+
+[48:43] If I were to get a whole vacuum top round, cook it with a circulator for 24 to 48 hours, then cut it up, pack it for pressure canning. Pack it for pressure canning. Uh pack it for pressure canning. Would this improve the texture of the beef after canning compared to just canning with the higher heat in the canner, take away all the texture improvement from the slow and low cooking? Uh I'd love to call, but I can't find the number.
+
+[49:01] The number is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, if you hit me back with the uh number, I'm happy to call in. P.S. I'm convinced that my eight-year-old daughter, I've I've convinced my eight-year-old daughter that the hammer is a female professional wrestler who just likes food, and that's why she's on the show and why Dave always yells the hammer.
+
+[49:21] What do you think, Jack? She's correct. Yeah. Yeah. This is accurate.
+
+[49:26] It is it is my opinion, John, is my opinion that uh low and slow before pressure canning will not do anything because the pressure canning is like so much more violent. And it's gonna like uh see when you're doing low and slow, one of the interesting things about low and slow is that the connective tissue doesn't render out. And also when you're cooking for a long time, especially cuts like that, like round, some of them can tend to go livery over very livery. Yeah, not like a livery cab, like with the taste of liver. Yes.
+
+[49:54] Over long cooking periods. Uh and so in general, if I was you, I would just pressure can it. But I could be wrong because I haven't run the test. You always need to run the test. I would do it, but I would say that at first blush, uh, pressure canning is gonna remove any uh perceived benefit you would get out of um uh out of the uh what's it called?
+
+[50:17] Low temperature cooking. Yeah. Um this I do not know the answer to. I have a question from um I think this question, although it could be, is from Jean Uyet, uh about milk. Uh wondering whether uh it could be a man, could be a woman.
+
+[50:36] I don't know. Yeah. Running uh lives upstate New York and is a wonders whether can pre-condense milk with reverse osmosis machine the way they do with maple syrup. Answer, I don't know. I wasn't able to find out quickly enough.
+
+[50:50] So hopefully I'll get Nastasia to reroute that question to me uh next week, and I'll do a little more, I'll do a little more research. I mean, I don't have a lot of experience personally with reverse osmosis other than with water. I don't have I, you know, I've, you know, I don't have a sugar shack much as I would like to have one. Uh and if I did, if I did, would I do RO or would I just do classic boy? I mean, the reason one of the reasons to do RO, right, is the pre-concentration, save energy, right?
+
+[51:18] Because you don't have to do as much boiling. Yeah. 40 to 1. I don't know. I'll do some research and I'll get back to it.
+
+[51:23] Jack, thanks so much for taking the place of the hammer. Matt, we good? We're so good. I'm just envisioning, you know, nostasia with somebody like in a in a full Nelson. Yeah.
+
+[51:36] Yeah. Don't have to think too hard. Yeah. It's right there. Anyway, cooking issues.
+
+[51:52] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter. Just enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[52:15] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[52:41] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is presented by Shacksbury Cider. Hi, I'm HRN's executive director, Katie Moseman Waddler, with a preview of this week's episode of Meet and Three, our weekly food news roundup. So every day the shutdown continues to grow is another day that there will be a backlog. This week, we're looking at the unexpected ways the government shutdown has impacted our food system. There are nearly 1.6 million New Yorkers who rely on snaps to feed themselves and their families every single day.
+
+[0:32] There is a real impact on our friends and neighbors. A lot of farmers rely on commodity loans at the end of the year. Since the offices are not open, those loans aren't available to them. Tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network. That's M E A T plus sign T-H-R-E-E.
+
+[0:52] Available wherever you listen to podcasts. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez back from her fantastic important meeting last week. How are you doing, Nastasia? Yeah?
+
+[1:24] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got Matt in the booth. How you doing?
+
+[1:27] Hey, hey, hey. Yeah. So Nastasia, uh, we already talked about how you were like you tasted the rice at my house, and you were like, garbage gyro rice. I know. How high are are my tastes if you're Jiro Rice?
+
+[1:42] But she's like disagreed. She yeah, I'm like, yeah, true, true, fair. I'm like, but do you take that as a compliment or as a slight? His rice is as not in I don't like his rice. Right.
+
+[1:54] Like, and the and the thing is, people, people, we have had other people sushi in Japan. It's not just a case of dumb Americans go to Japan to try to tell the Japanese how to make their own product. It's not like that, right? Right. His rice in particular, you know.
+
+[2:11] I take more exception with the Michelin guide reviewers. You know what I mean? Like who gave him like the three stars and like blew him up into this giant thing. Cutting impeccable. Cutting, great, gorgeous.
+
+[2:24] Everything cooked was disgusting, hammered, right? And the rice was not to my taste, but it is, I think, the way that Jiro wanted it. And you've mimicked it for some reason. Nastasi's disgusting Jiro Rice. So uh how you doing?
+
+[2:44] Fine. You enjoying the subway? No. So people It's bad enough that we live here and the weather's like this and it's awful, and you have to walk everywhere and you have everything on your back. But then, what else?
+
+[2:55] Well, I mean, everything in your back look like Mitch McConnell, like a crap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, all your junk with you at all times. Well, the subway uh has decided for some reason to skip every stop around.
+
+[3:08] And then go super slow. Yeah, doot doop doop doot. Yeah. Love it. Love it.
+
+[3:13] Love it. So Nastasia, I don't know why you were taking my subway line today. Um Stassi has a secret. Nastasi and I used to go to a secret hair salon. Uh, and really the there's two reasons that we went to this place.
+
+[3:29] One, no one spoke any English at all, so there's no possibility of communication between ourselves and the people. So it was like the only like 45 minutes of basically non-communicative silence, like just like kind of self-space you could get and still be with other people in the city of New York, right? It was amazing. Uh and the other reason was is that the head shampoo is like out of this world. And also Nastasi, and I don't know if you know this, cheap, very cheap.
+
+[4:02] So, you know, it was like it's like sixteen bucks, it's like 45 minutes long, includes like half hour hair, you know, hair shampoo. You know what I mean? But Nastasia now has found a new place. Do you go there? I I switch.
+
+[4:17] I've been I've been to both, you know, recently. We can't tell you where they are because we don't want a bunch of English speaking people showing up and making it so that I can understand what people are saying around me. If I can understand what people are saying around me, then my mind will tune into what they're saying. If I have no comprehension of what's going on around me, it's great. It's great.
+
+[4:40] It's the best. Had enough time to get here, but yeah. Well, apparently not. So now we need to schedule like eight hours to get here. We need to leave the night before and sleep over.
+
+[4:52] We should just sleep in the Matt, can we sleep here? Absolutely, you can. Sleep in the army tent. You know what? There is already a caller on the line, and I'm I'm sorry to say they do speak English.
+
+[5:02] Oh, well, well, that's fine for now. That's that's our job. It's like please. We want our downtime. Yeah, our downtime, we want to be completely without any form of human communication.
+
+[5:12] Oh, okay. Well, I just wanted this to be relaxing for you, you know. No, no, no, don't define. If I feel relaxed while I'm at work, shoot me. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:21] Yeah. Noted. Yeah, caller you're on the air. Hey y'all, thanks for taking my call. Uh my name is Devin.
+
+[5:27] Uh Nastasia, I hope you get the mojo back. I'm sending some good vibes your way. For the Super Bowl, I'm trying to make some sausages that will taste exactly like gumbo. I have a gumbo recipe I like. I've made fresh sausages and blood sausages as well.
+
+[5:40] The blood is the binder. But I can't just figure out how to get the texture that I want. Do you guys have any thoughts? Uh huh. Well, so what have you tried so far?
+
+[5:50] Like, so you want it to be super loose on the inside, or you just want like the flavors like the green pepper and uh and all of the other things that are in in the gumbo. Is it gonna be like you're gonna do like a shrimp and a sausage base? Like what do you what are you doing on the on the inside? Well, traditionally the uh proteins have been some wild game meat and uh some sausage. Um I I should have specified I do want the combination of the gumbo and the rice.
+
+[6:15] So the texture I'm going for is almost like a Korean blood sausage where the blood is the binder, but I just want it to taste like gumbo and have the other you know traditional gumbo ingredients that I've been using. But it's not in other words, like you're not worried about like the exact like texture. You're not like going for like a feel, you're not like worried about like uh an internal sauce like like uh we're not gonna have like a filet versus kind of okra kind of a situation here, right? Like in other words, it's just the flavors that you want and you're looking to do like a like a like a binder, and you're not doing any sort of uh you're doing mainly sausage and I don't know. There will be rice in there.
+
+[6:54] Uh I'm just using uh a darker roux. Um and it was, you know, ideally it'd be something that's sliceable, like you would slice maybe the Korean blood sausage or the Polish type or a morcia or something like that. Yeah, well, I mean, I think it should I mean so you're looking for something that's not you're looking for something to bind the way blood would, but that doesn't have a heavy blood taste so that the sucker tastes like gumbo? Exactly. Because I've tried it just by mixing cooked rice and my gumbo and tasting it uh it was too loose and too wet on the inside.
+
+[7:25] Right. What I wonder what would happen. I wonder what would happen so like so typically in these sausages right the rice is expanding and absorbing to kind of solidify and you end up with the kind of like depending on how much liquid etc etc how loose it is but the the we when you put it in do you parcook your rice or do you put it in how do you do your rice when you do your blood sausage it's been so many years since I've made a a blood sausage. Do you do any par cooking to it at all or yeah the rice is fully cooked. Fully cooked fully cooked.
+
+[7:54] So it's not going to absorb too much water. So it's not like it's not like you'd do for like a like a haggis or anything like that. You're you're putting in fully cooked product. Okay. Right.
+
+[8:04] So you get to choose the kind of uh texture you want but you want it relatively loose so in other words you wouldn't want to do like an emulsified sausage or like a a force meat or like uh like a mousse and then like fold the rice into it and then stuff it that way. Because that would stuff easy but you'd have kind of a a denser you know more like you would for like um like a seafood sausage or like an emulsified like uh like you know an emulsified sausage but you're not looking to do that. Right. Just from a a technical perspective I'd have to figure out how to get the emulsion right and then uh I think that would introduce too many variables but I'm willing to explore if if that's the way to get the result. I mean, I know that would hold as long as you don't break it and get it, you know, as long as as long as it doesn't break.
+
+[8:55] Like emulsified sausage is not as hard as people say it is, as long as you keep all the stuff cool, right? And you add enough binder to it so it's not gonna like it's not gonna fly apart on you. Now, most of the time I cheat and I'm doing like uh, like I say, seafood base, and so I'd I basically just make a standard canal mixture and then put it into sausage casings and go. I know that would work with rice, but I don't know what would happen if you took it away from that kind of base and turned it more into a um so you're doing hmm, I don't have to think about this, but I don't have too long to think about it. And you Matt, you should open up the chat room to it too as I think.
+
+[9:34] The word you would use a minute ago, canal? Yeah. I'm not familiar with it. How do you spell it? I'll look it up.
+
+[9:39] Oh, Q-U-E-N-E-L-L-E. Oh, okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah.
+
+[9:43] And you know, that's just you know, it's just uh like a seafood moose. It's a moose type thing. Yeah, it's just a moose. It's a seafood moose, and you know, for if you're doing a canal, you just take your your spoons and go chak chak chak chak and and then you you poach them off. Or you could take, you know, fundamentally the same mixture and pipe it into a casing because who doesn't like the snap of a casing, right?
+
+[10:03] And then uh and then go, but and I know that would be easy to fold rice into, but I don't know if that's gonna be the kind of texture you want. And I've never done it I've never done it with other than seafood. I have made regular emulsified sausages before, but I've never then folded anything into my emulsified sausage. Of course, people do it all the time. People, you know, fold cheese into their sausages all the time, you know what I mean?
+
+[10:27] Other things into their emulsified sausage all the time. So um, I mean, that's gonna be the easiest, easiest way to go is to I think do like a mousse like that to pipe it in and then and then poach it off. But I don't know if that's gonna be exactly what you want. I'm gonna try to give it more thought. No problem.
+
+[10:44] I I appreciate it. I think I just gotta do some more work than uh in exploring kind of the use of the emulsification then. That's something I've been avoiding up till now. But it's like, yeah, I mean, like depending on to get that bind, right? Yeah, right.
+
+[10:59] Depending, I mean, it is true that it is easy to F up a like uh like a standard like a hot dog emulsion, right? For some reason those go kind of grainy pretty easily. But then if you just look at like the standard like moose-based sausages that you know French people cheat with all the time, they're pretty easy to get going. You know what I mean? Like they very rarely die on you.
+
+[11:21] You know what I'm saying? Um so maybe you know, splitting the difference somehow is uh is the the way the way to get it to work. But please uh hit me back, uh like either call in or tweet to a cooking issues and let me know where you're getting with it. I want to know your final solution so that in the future I will know what worked. Gotcha.
+
+[11:40] I'll take some pictures as well if things go well. Uh I got some experiments to do, but I appreciate your help. Cool. Have a good Super Bowl. Thanks you too.
+
+[11:48] Nastasia, you're gonna do a Super Bowl party? What does he mean? I he hopes he gets my my I get my mojo back. Because you've lost your complete mojo. I don't know.
+
+[11:55] Maybe I was talking crap about you last week. Maybe I was talking crap about you last week. Matt, was I talking to you sex life? No, that doesn't just mean your sex life. Wait, what?
+
+[12:03] What? What was it? What does mojo mean? Oh, mojo is used uh more generically than that now. Much more generically.
+
+[12:11] You're just saying you were complaining about the city, city getting you down. It's like life force. Yeah. So you're so when you listen to the doors, you're only thinking about his about his mojo rubber. In the case of Jim Morrison, yeah, that seems like the right interpretation.
+
+[12:29] Yeah, but that's because that's all Jim Morrison thought about. I mean, I don't know. Nastasia is like the Jim Morrison of cooking issues. Wow. There's only two.
+
+[12:37] Wow. Yeah, I know. It's not saying much. Does that make me Ray Manzaric? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:43] You like steady, you steady the ship, you make sure things happen. Well, that's because Nastasia freaking hates the doors. I don't know who she hates more. Ray Manzarek or I do not. Really?
+
+[12:53] The doors are an overrated bar band. Come on. What? First of all, everyone hates them, so how can they be overrated? Dave hates the Eagles.
+
+[13:00] I don't know. Everyone hates the doors. That's not true, though. I'm supposed to hate them because instead of a bass player, they have a keyboard. Right, that's terrible.
+
+[13:09] But Ray Manzarek is great. His keyboard is good. He's a great keyboardist. Yeah, I think he is good. I think Jim Morrison is overrated.
+
+[13:18] He's supposed to be like a rock god. Well, I mean he is sexy. I guarantee you he was terrible in concert because he was wasted all the time. You know what I mean? Actually, I should ask uh my stepfather.
+
+[13:29] My stepfather saw them in concert at the at the garden in Boston. Um we have another caller on the line with a question about the doors. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, uh uh emailed in two questions last week. One about pressure canning and the other about milk.
+
+[13:43] Ah, milk. The reverse osmosis? Yeah. Yes. I so uh here I found, see if I wrote it down for you.
+
+[13:51] There's someone. So clearly it can be done. I looked it up, and clearly people do this for a living. But you were mostly interested in how to kind of steal time from your buddies who make maple syrup, right? Correct.
+
+[14:07] Yeah, so if we can run milk through the RO without affecting their maple syrup production. Right, right, right. Now, I didn't have time to read the full article, right? But two things you might be interested in is uh someone, I forget her name, someone in Denmark wrote a story on uh the impact of reverse osmosis on milk quality, and it was her findings that the quality of milk is not reduced in any way by there there's some change in the uh amount uh in the amount of time it takes to curdle if you're gonna make cheese out of it. Um but but besides that, like reverse osmosis is gentle as you would expect it would be on the components of uh of the milk.
+
+[14:47] All right. So there's that, but then here's what you want to look. Someone wrote, and here's why I didn't have time to go through it, it's 350 pages long, but if someone wrote their dissert their dissertation on exactly what you want to know, and uh they were from the University of Canterbury, New Zealand. This was written in 2015. I forgot to write down the author's name, but the name of it is fouling and cleaning of reverse osmosis membranes in the dairy industry.
+
+[15:15] So if anyone has the information for you, it is the person who wrote that 350 page thesis on I'll sit down and read the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, because then nothing but time on my hands. Right, because you know, uh, you know, presumably if they published it, this person uh adequately defended their PhD. So instead of saying, instead of going to your maple buddies and being like, hey, some knucklehead in Bushwick says it's not gonna hurt your your your membrane, you can be like, well, this guy wrote a PhD or a woman, I don't know. I don't for I forget who wrote it.
+
+[15:47] This person wrote his PhD thesis on it, and look, and then they have charts and data, so it's gonna be all set one way or to the other. And what one of my questions with it that I I don't think I expressed in the email without a emails, is um everything I read about pri uh so I'm doing it to pressure can I'm a pressure canning kick right now. Um commercially they're not boiling down. They're doing some they call it an evaporator, but I can't figure out what the evaporator is. And I know, like with maple syrup, when you put it through an RO, the quality of the maple syrup goes drastically down because the sugar is in the pan less time, so you get a lot grade A, but a lot lower uh quality syrup and and less robust tasting syrup.
+
+[16:32] So I wasn't sure if that's the same thing that crosses over with the milk if it has to be boiled, or are they commercially to get a product uh similar to commercial can they even be used reverse osmosis so that the boiling time is greatly reduced. Okay, so right. So evaporated milk, I mean the here's the issue, right? When you're when you're when you're boiling maple, when you're making maple syrup, right, the goal is to make something that has flavor, right? So i i if you I mean you could take sap and you could completely without applying any heat to it with a high enough vacuum, suck it down to 66 bricks, right?
+
+[17:14] It would be a pain in the ass. Yeah, but I'm at pain in the butt. It would be a huge pain in the butt, but you could do it. Now, what you're telling me, and I've never run the experiment, so I don't know, but what you're telling me is is that if it doesn't have that heat applied, it doesn't have the flavor people like, right? Because it doesn't matter.
+
+[17:29] Oh, right. Well, so that's that's your difference between the different grades and the different colors. Um so you get different years. So this year producing was a really low sugar year because of the weather in the SAP. So all the SAP people that produce boiling without reverse osmosis is really, really dark this year.
+
+[17:48] Um if you get this year's syrup from anywhere in the northeast that's a really light color, it's been through reverse osmosis because that's the only way to get the light color. Yeah, because it it's it's not spending time in the pan. Right, because the longer remember the longer you're the longer you're boiling it, the kind of more um the more kind of breakdown you're gonna get of whatever stuff is in there that's not pure and the kind of darker it's gonna get. And also, I I might add also, I don't know this, but presumably, uh, you know, the sugar is there in a certain amount, but also other stuff is there in a certain amount. So if your sugar is low, it doesn't necessarily mean that your other adjuncts in it are at the same lowness.
+
+[18:29] So to concentrate to the same bricks on sugar, you're probably gonna get more of that other garbage. So it's more of a mineral. Right. So but uh but maybe not. If you're telling me that if you just evaporate it with RO, it's just as light as it used to be.
+
+[18:41] That's saying that if you do just remove the water without heat, then it's not it's not browning as much. So I guess that means that that's not the case. An elderly couple that I help do their sugar and they've got 150 taps and I run their arc um in it or their um their arch and it's always it's dark syrup this year. I've got some friends that have half a million taps that everything that runs through RO and then it goes to uh some bourbon producer down south. Um but their their syrup is at the right bricks, but it it doesn't taste hardly tastes any maple at all.
+
+[19:15] So I wasn't sure if if that same theory would affect the way that the milk turned out. Okay. Well, what I think the good news for you is is that in general, commercially, they I think they do do it under vacuum because if you cook milk down, it will naturally kind of myard brown on you. You know what I mean? Like it it will brown on you.
+
+[19:38] And um, so the I think uh, you know, and obviously you can see that it's accelerated in a in a in a pressure cooker, it goes brown brown brown in like under an hour, right? So if you were gonna co boil concentrate something down, the more concentrate it concentrated it gets and and the hotter it is, the browner it's gonna get. And most people, when they're marketing these products, don't want those brown flavors. They want it to kind of be as light and as as little Myard reaction as is humanly possible. And so for those people, I wouldn't be, you know, surprised that they make sure that the milk is not too basic when it goes in because basicity will obviously jack myard, and they probably try to keep the the temperature as low as they can.
+
+[20:25] And so applying a vacuum on it would be one way to do it, but then also presumably applying RO to it would be another way to do it, right? Now or and and then like you know, the ultimate I mean the the advantage of RO is it's relatively low energy input for water removal compared to boiling, right? Um, and also uh like a no heat, a no heat situation. I mean, but the I'm you know, the maple people probably just do it because it's energetically favor favorable for them. Is that true?
+
+[20:53] I mean, I don't really know much of it. Yeah, you can you can produce uh, you know, there's no way that you're without RO you're doing uh uh half a million taps and then and boiling boiling off conventionally. Um it's gotta go through the for the RO what bri what bricks do they take it to in the RO? Do you know? I say they take it to whatever the minimum legal is for the standard of the state of Vermont to call it Vermont Maple syrups which I is either 66 or 67.
+
+[21:17] Oh they do it they do it a hundred percent RO no so it's finished it's finished in the um in the arc but it's or the arch sorry I keep getting it wrong it's finished but once the flow starts going into that thing and as it's oil burned and the chimney gets red hot I mean you get like three or four gallons a minute minute out of it. Right right so it's pretty close when it goes in. But are they putting it in at like 30 bricks or are they putting it in at like 40 bricks or like all the way this way around like 45 so it's pretty pretty dang close. They're not getting rid of that much water huh? No not at all.
+
+[21:56] Not at all. And there's a huge the huge flavor discrepancy between that and stuff that's been actually boiled. Yeah now let me uh let me ask you this um when you so when you said this year because this is kind of interesting to me when you said this year was a low sugar year like so uh well from what I gather you're looking at about a 40 to one reduction to take sap to syrup right roughly uh a little bit higher than that but yeah okay so but like so like if it if it's like what it's 42, what was it this year? Like as much as fifty or like was it even worse than that? Uh it was it was worse than that.
+
+[22:31] So um I've I I have written down not here at my house but in the sugar shack. Um I think for every I don't want to quote myself and have it way wrong but we we our yield was really low this year. Um so the the amount of I think we it was like up like thirty percent for the amount of gallons of sap needed to produce a uh a gallon of syrup. Thirty percent, geez. So it's like it's not like a big difference.
+
+[22:59] And and but and your and your run was the same, your run was the same? Like in other words, like you you you got the same number of liters of raw sap and you just got 30% less syrup out of it, or did you want to do that? No, so they uh more liters of sap. So the trees actually produce more liters of sap because they they kept thinking coming in and out of hibernation, so they kept cranking it out. Huh.
+
+[23:20] So uh the the the draw time was a lot like it was an extra month of collection. Um so the sugar is instead of going super concentrated up, I don't I don't know the science behind it, but we had like an extra month of drying sap this year, and so that really dilutes down, but because it was so uh warm, the the melt off from the snow that like that moisture is available in the ground for it to draw to push that sugar out to the leaves. Alright, so I think what our listeners want to know is is our strategic maple syrup reserves okay this year or not? Oh, I think they're fine. I mean it I wouldn't I don't think there's a problem.
+
+[24:03] All right. I'm plenty of maple syrup anyways. So I've got tons of mason stars in the basement. But are you telling me we should buy from a smaller producer that doesn't have an RO unit because the RO grade A amber is gonna suck this year? I I well, no, because I think it sucks every year.
+
+[24:21] That's a matter of opinion. And you know, I grew I grew up in Vermont having made a syrup that came from a small producer that was boiled off, and that's what I grew up with. I didn't grow up with the RO stuff. And uh when I go somewhere and it's really light syrup, I'm really disappointed. Where a lot of people that they think, oh, really light syrup, really high quality, and and that's what they like.
+
+[24:40] Yeah, but you know, that that's the weird thing. If they want super super light, then why not just why not just use sugar? Right. Why not just use corn syrup with uh fake maple? Yeah, pancake syrup as it's called.
+
+[24:52] Pancake. Pancake syndrome. Alright, well, listen. Well, one one last word of suggestion. Uh, you might not want to tell the people whose RO units you're borrowing that you think their product is garbage.
+
+[25:02] Uh, they know it's garbage. They boil off their own for themselves. I mean, it's it's a business, right? I mean, if you some barber producer came to you and say we'll we'll buy all your production, you go, okay. You squeeze every penny out of it.
+
+[25:14] I mean, I they know it. All right. All right, very good. Uh I have one other one other question for you, but we're gonna skip it. Um, my daughter who listens with me had a question about seeds, but she decided that she wasn't gonna eat her lunch because it had rice in it, so uh we're gonna skip it.
+
+[25:31] All right, well, uh, like, you know, uh email it in. We'll get it next time. This episode is brought to you by Shacksbury Cider, who believes cider can be daring, complex, and eminently drinkable. Located in Virgins, Vermont, Shacksbury make a broad offering of ciders, from the bright and fruity rose to inventive small batch wild apple fermentation. Each fall, Shacksbury takes to the hills of Vermont to forage for the wild and forgotten fruit that make up their lost apple project.
+
+[26:01] Shaxbury, producer of the first American-made Petnat Cider, continues to experiment every year with limited edition ciders designed to spotlight locally foraged fruit. To learn more, visit Shaksbury.com or follow them on Instagram at Shacksburg. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Jimmy Carboni, and I'm the host of Beer Sessions Radio here on HRN.
+
+[26:26] My show is an audio ale salon, celebrating the world of craft beer, cider food, and more. Through discussions with industry insiders and knowledgeable beer fans, my friends and I explore every aspect of the brewer's craft from grains to pint glass and tasting to toasting. You can find Beer Sessions Radio wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radion Network.org. Uh call her you're on the air. Oh, hi, Dave.
+
+[26:59] Hi, Stoff. Is this my roommate? Claire. Hey Claire, how you doing? I'm good.
+
+[27:04] How are you guys? Alright. Alright, what's going on? So I have a very important question that stuff, my roommate, and I would love your help in settling. Temporary roommate.
+
+[27:17] Yes, temporary roommate. We will be living together for about two months when all is said and done. This is the first Nastassi's hearing of it. She has a surprise face on. And by the way, we will not on air ever, and don't ask me, discuss Nastasia's roommate rules.
+
+[27:35] They are Oh, they are perfect. They are not the first one, Claire. Dave, don't only masturbate in the shower. Oh my god, this is a family show. What the hell?
+
+[27:47] I said we will never discuss this on air. I mean, that was actually. Why did she ask me that then? I mean, she that was a trap. It was not a trap.
+
+[28:00] I specifically said, and when she told me the rules, I was like, this is horrifying. And also I also whatever. I don't want to like. That's the only bad one. The others are only brush your teeth in the bathroom.
+
+[28:17] No suitcase explosions. Um take the trash out. Let's get no cups, no cups left around. You're now going over all of the rules. Rent the runway bags, go directly to recycling.
+
+[28:30] That's an add-on for me. I thought you had to give the bags back to them. No, the plastic they're gonna be. No, the plastic. Hey, rent the runway people.
+
+[28:39] Here's a new problem. They send you they send you two or three things in one bag, but if you only want to send one thing back, you don't have enough bags anymore. Well that's why you have to have a mate who's uh uh rent the runway mule for you. Yeah. And the Clinton.
+
+[28:58] I'm really living the dream. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, listen. So Stas and I have something called the junk microwave, which is where we basically store all the naughty snacks in the microwave. That's terrible idea.
+
+[29:14] Okay, but yes, I would concur because the microwave is like hot. Well, that's not the only reason. First of all, why is your microwave hot? Yeah, wait, I have questions. Because I there's something, I don't know.
+
+[29:27] It's just always like the light on the light. Oh, yeah. The light. You have like a low rider light underneath it? Yeah.
+
+[29:33] What kind of light? It's like a heat lamp, and she insists on keeping it on when I'm sleeping. Because I don't know. Why do you keep a heat lamp underneath a microwave? Do you also store French?
+
+[29:45] If you liked French fries, I would think you were storing French fries underneath it, like on a perma basis. But you hate French fries. So, yes, this is another thing with Sasha's. I think the real issue here is that we're basically, are we not creating a breeding ground for junk food bacteria? Well, no, I mean those things are designed to be, you know, relatively I mean you could get roaches in there.
+
+[30:09] They like heat. Is there any is there any moisture near there? Roaches can invade microwaves. Roaches can invade microwaves. What feels moist.
+
+[30:19] Oh, if it's moist, then yeah, I mean Yeah, but the junk food is like nuts. That's not junk food. First of all, there is no such thing as junk food. I don't believe I'm not, I don't allow anyone in my house to use the term junk food, and when they use the term junk food, I berate them endlessly because it like you're just creating a false desire for something because like, oh, it's junk, I want it, oh, I can't have it, I want it. Would you it's food.
+
+[30:43] There's food that you can, there's food that you should have sparingly, and then there's food that you could eat as much as you want. Nuts are relatively dry, Claire. I wouldn't worry about nuts. What are you worried about? Okay, that's well, okay.
+
+[30:55] What I'm worried about is like the um pop chip bag that's opened. Pop chips are a dry food. Yeah, but I'm telling you that there's moist, it feels damp and hot in the microwave. Look, first of all, things do feel m more moist when they are warm, strangely, because things give off. But but like if the if pop chips in particular, well, are they the sweet ones?
+
+[31:21] Those are kind of a garbage product right there. That's a fake that's a fake junk food. It's garbage. What? It isn't it just a fake rice chip?
+
+[31:31] Yes. Uh okay, look, I would just eat real salt and vinegar potato chips. Those things taste delicious. But anyway, my point is that uh a pop chip, because it is just uh expanded uh rice starch, or isn't it right? Is it rice or is it corn?
+
+[31:48] Rice. Alright, it's expanded rice starch. Uh uh, so it's it's fundamentally it's styrofoam, but it's made of rice starch. So if it's moist at all, it will lose its crunch. So if there's any moisture in there, it is also garbage.
+
+[32:03] Like bacteria require sour patch kids that grow bacteria, right? Sour Okay, look, they're able they are individually wrapped. Sour patch. Your sour patch kids are individually wrapped? You sit there and you individually wrap each sour patch child.
+
+[32:18] No, they're the Halloween. I think it's I think it's a family. Like I think there's four in a pack. Okay. Listen, anything with a water activity, uh, pop chips have uh a very, very low water activity.
+
+[32:30] Bacteria require several things. They require a high water activity, um, they can't have too high of a salt level, um, and there can't be things in it that actively kill bacteria. So what what happens is is that your pop chips, unless they're wet, which they won't be, and then they won't be pop chips anymore, they'll be gruel, right? They are safe. Yes, they're safe.
+
+[32:53] Uh the water activity in a sour patch kid, first of all, it is sour and it's got very, very high uh amount of like sugar, it's fundamentally a solid. Nothing can really grow inside of the sour patch kid. But if you have condensation, like if you have like condensation or a mist forming on the inside walls of your microwave, now that can grow bacteria, and then when you when your hand goes in, it wipes across the biofilm of crap. Then when you put your hand into the pop chip bag, which I don't recommend, by the way, I recommend you throw away the pop chips and buy salt and vinegar potato chips. When you put your hand into the pop chip and and now you've contaminated it with that disgusting biofilm, that's when you start having problems.
+
+[33:36] Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. But may I suggest something else? Why don't you get you what's called a bread box, an old school bread box? It's just meant to keep large vermin out, right?
+
+[33:47] Like mice and whatnot. It's got it, and air can move in and out of it because it's got like a little screen, but not so much air that stuff dries out. Put your snack foods in there and reserve your microwave for microwave usage. Like, what if you want to melt chocolate? Right.
+
+[34:03] Yeah. This morning I had to take everything out and put my oatmeal in. Wait, you don't like oatmeal and stash? Or you don't like microwave oatmeal. You know why I don't like you know why I don't like the most oatmeal that people kind of make?
+
+[34:16] They don't salt it. People are disgusting. I don't salt mine. Salt your oatmeal. Not like a lot.
+
+[34:22] Don't make it because that's the way God wants it. Add a little salt to the oatmeal. Do you add sugar? No, no, I'm doing the fast metabolism diet. What is that even anything?
+
+[34:34] What does that even mean? What is it? What does that mean? Fast metabolism diet. What is that?
+
+[34:38] What what? What does that mean? Are you familiar with the term the great oat rush from the 90s? No. Where like people were like, No.
+
+[34:46] There was a there was this study later, like found to be useless where they were like, oat fiber. Oat fiber can lower your cholesterol. So then all the oat companies, meaning Quaker and like the two or three other oat people on Earth, were like, if you eat a if you eat eight boat tons of oats, right, then all of a sudden your cholesterol is gonna drop. So then everybody and their mother, brother, sister, father, cousin, started pounding oats, and then all of the big companies started pushing oats on people, and it was called the Great Oat Rush. So I feel that there is some sort of like oat oat rush reboot that's going on here.
+
+[35:26] In what way is an oat supposed to boot your boost your metabolism? It's a diet. There's more shit. It's a it's staged eating. What the hell does that mean?
+
+[35:36] Welcome to my life. On Mondays and on Mondays and Tuesdays, you eat like gluten-free grains, vegetables, fruit, and then on Wednesdays and Thursdays, you only eat green vegetables and protein. And then on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you eat all of the above plus healthy fat. Healthy what? Fat.
+
+[35:53] Fat. And what is what is this particular diet consider to be healthy fat? Avocado and nuts. Okay, you're in a cult. You have joined a cult.
+
+[36:05] Let me tell you something about cults and cult dieting. It's a book. Because I many, many look, dianetics is also a book. But what I'm saying, no offense out there, but like what I'm saying is is that you are in a cult. Now the good news about cult diets is they can work because uh most of the studies show that the most important thing with dieting is uh A, that you get bored with it, because if you're interested in eating, you'll you'll eat more.
+
+[36:32] So most diets that work require that you become hateful of the food you're eating, right? Because that way you're you just don't want to consume that much of it. And the second thing that's super important is no choice. If people re remove your choice, then you also tend to eat less, you tend to eat in a more regimented manner. And that's really why most things kind of work.
+
+[36:52] You know, I and by the way, like I've I've you know been a yo yo-yo my whole life, up down, up down, up down, and if you just regiment yourself, turns out it might hurt you. Like, I've I've lost a lot of muscle mass in the past on certain diets. I've like made myself incredibly angry. I used to have a diet called blunch. And uh on blunch, blunch, brunch, it so when you combine breakfast and lunch because you want to, that's brunch.
+
+[37:17] When you combine breakfast and lunch because you're only having one tiny meal to tide you over till dinner because you're on a stupid cultish regimented diet, that's called blunch. And whenever I was on the blunch diet, I was a evil, mean, more evil, more mean, more vindictive bastard than I would be on on a normal day. And Jen would come home at night and I would like you know, bite her head off. This is before we had kids, too. And she'd be like, You blunching?
+
+[37:44] I'm like, Yeah, sorry. Sorry, Jen. I'm blunching, I'm blunching hard. This anger's all coming from the blunch, Jen. But the fact of the matter is is that these kind of regimented cultish things work, but choose one that isn't ridiculous and that doesn't require you to like like just be like, you know what?
+
+[38:02] Oh, I'm gonna have every day two eggs and some sauerkraut. And that'll work the same. Because you're just choosing one random thing. I'm gonna have two eggs and a sauerkraut. And you're like, ooh, that looks good.
+
+[38:12] Is it two eggs and sauerkraut? Then no. You know what I mean? Like, or hey, go raw. If you if you if you go raw, all the food you eat's gonna get blasted out your hind end into your toilet, and you're not gonna you're not gonna like you know get any of it.
+
+[38:25] You know what I mean? All I'm saying is just realize, I hope it works for you, but you're in a cult now. We gotta go. Uh so I had some questions I didn't get to, including I have to go on another pizza rant. Some person wrote in with some helpful stuff, but I have to talk about next year week about commercial ovens versus home ovens.
+
+[38:44] What's the difference? Uh you know, how like pizza steals and other things work versus stones, sauces, peels, making a lot of pizzas in a row, etc. etc. I also, someone um who wrote in before is uh Johnnyet. We answered some one of his questions, but he has a thing out there.
+
+[39:04] He wants to know people. Think about this for next week. He wants to know he's a small egg producer, and he he says he can produce an egg with a lot more yolk than white, right? Like, in other words, versus a standard supermarket egg. He says he can jack the yolk percentage up, and we'll talk more about it.
+
+[39:22] Maybe he'll write in again. But is this something out there that people would be willing to pay extra? Would you, cooking issues listeners, be willing to pay extra for a massively yoked egg? Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[39:48] Food radio supported by you for our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[40:20] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[40:37] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is presented by The Green Grape. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. This year we're celebrating 10 years of food radio. For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more.
+
+[0:19] It's been 10 years and we're just getting started. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday. Oh, we're late again.
+
+[0:38] We're really freaking late again. Robert's Pizza Win, Bushwick Brokley. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and Matt in the booth. How are you guys doing? Excellent.
+
+[0:49] So today, I don't even know if people care about my excuses anymore, but today Nastasi and I went on a wild kitesan goose chase. Because uh we're getting ready to gear up for another push of uh Spinzall Mania. Are our is our next shipment of spinzalls on the water or no? No, not yet. They should be here by let's say March.
+
+[1:13] That freaking long? Well, I'm just gonna say that because if I say end of February, we're gonna get all if they don't, then you know. It still has to get through Amazon. So they may make it to the US at the end of February, but the Amazon component is Can you believe, people that it takes? Okay, Jell, if we open a bar in Queens, what are we gonna do when Amazon opens?
+
+[1:34] This is your idea. I know that it's so good. Well, what was it? You wanted to choose it charged double? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:41] So here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're gonna do. So for those of you that, you know, for those of you that you know have listened to this show, you know that like Nastasia has a hate hate relationship with the Amazon Corporation. Now, every, every nickel that Nastasia and I make is derived from selling our products on Amazon. You know, we sell a couple things on Monitors Pantry, but pretty much our revenue is Amazon derived.
+
+[2:08] And their favorite thing to do is to not pay us. That's their favorite thing to do. Yeah, they receive that. So like we hand them a like, and I say we, I mean Hong Kong Chris, hands them a whole bunch of Sears alls in in China, which is this is our contract. They put them on their own boat and then ship them to the United States.
+
+[2:32] And then an Amazon boat. An Amazon, well, Amazon contracted boat. I mean, maybe they own the boat, I don't know. Maybe it's a Bezos boat. I have no idea.
+
+[2:40] Uh so they so what happens is invariably they want from Nastasia, who by the way lives here in New York, and you know, we are Booker and Dax, anyway, wants from Nastasia proof that they have arrived in the warehouse in the United States. And we're like, ho, ho, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Amazon, your boat. Your boat.
+
+[3:04] Your factory, your people, your receiver. You, you know what I mean? Like, we handed you crap in China, and that's the that's it. You know what I mean? That's all there is to it.
+
+[3:16] So Nesta what Nastasi wants to do is sell, so Amazon is moving a big, you know, one of their headquarters to uh Long Island City, Queens. Nastasia wants to open a bar there just so what she can do is sell gift cards to Amazon workers for gift. That's the only way they can get a drink. If they buy a gift card. They buy a gift card, and then when they show up, and Nastasia, by the way, is gonna quit every other job she has to do that just to be the host, which is a ransom job.
+
+[3:41] For those of you that are hosts out there, God bless you. God bless a good host. You know what I'm saying? Wretched job. So anyway, so uh so she all she's gonna do is be the host, and when they come in with their gift card, she's gonna be like, Well, I don't know.
+
+[3:56] Can you can you prove you can you prove you bought that gift card? Find the person. Yeah, find the person who sold you the gift. But I bought it over the internet. I don't know, man.
+
+[4:05] I don't know. I don't know. And she's just gonna do that so they never get their drinks. And just so you know, this is exactly the kind of vindictive person that Nastasia is. Like she was definitely they could go to other bars.
+
+[4:18] Yeah, you'd figure out you'd figure out something. Anyway, all right. So uh let's hit some questions here. Oh, by the way, I don't know if you know this people, the telephone number for this radio station is 718-497-2128. That's 7184972128.
+
+[4:31] Oh, before I get to questions, last night we did a Bobby Burns and Industry Grey Goose. So strangely, Doug at Gray Goose is like half Scots, and so he's like, We're gonna do Grey Goose is gonna pay for so a vodka company, a French vodka company paid for a Bobby Burns night with Haggis yesterday at uh existing conditions. Nastasia made a vegan face on Haggis. Haggis is freaking delicious. Have you had Haggis?
+
+[4:58] Yeah, you made me eat it once where at the FCI. You brought some back. It was delicious. You don't like it? You have you have serious brain damage.
+
+[5:06] People who don't like Haggis, either you're a vegetarian or you just have some sort of mental thing about it. If I just told you like oats plus like good stuff, you'd eat it. Anyway, they made me read. First of all, we had a bagpiper come. They hired this amazing uh bagpiper, Al Gonzalez, who used to play in the in the NYPD uh pipe band.
+
+[5:28] So we brought pipes. We had a haggis, and but it was an American-made haggis, so no lungs, unfortunately. Apparently, next year we're gonna try to smuggle in a haggis with lungs in it. Because the real haggis has lungs, but as you know, lungs are illegal to sell in the United States. So we get this piper, and like the whole front of the bar is like, what the what?
+
+[5:45] Because the piper starts playing in the front of the bar, like, ring. And so I talked to him, I'm gonna get back on the bagpipes again. Back on the bagpipe again. Come on, it's gonna you're gonna love it when I go bagpipe crazy again. What about your sous vide book?
+
+[5:59] Uh I have to write the sous vide book. Well, people, I have like two, I have I have a couple of hobbies in my life that I pick up and drop, pick up and drop, pick up and drop. One of them sous vide book. Well, that's not a hobby. I'm sp I'm I'm like theoretically being paid to do that.
+
+[6:14] So I need to do that. But the other one, it I can't believe it's called a freaking Sous vide book. It's not really Sous vide book. First of all, I lost that battle about calling it sous vide Solongo, but it still pisses me off, no end, that everyone calls it Sous vide, even though very few techniques in the in the book are gonna require a vacuum machine too long to get in here. Anyway, bagpipes, math.
+
+[6:36] Nastasia thinks, still thinks there's a uh an outside chance that I become a civil war reenactor. But I haven't I haven't gone on a civil war, like go into these holes, people. So it happened that Nastasi will call me, she's like, What do you what are you doing? Did you did you uh do the drawings for the for the next, you know, blah blah. I can't talk about it, but blah, blah, blah.
+
+[6:55] And I'm like, I just read 600 pages of Shelby Foot Civil War. And she's and she's like, You were idiot, you idiot. And of course, like, you know, but she, when she wants her bachelor time, she wants her bachelor time. I don't even watch that anymore. That was back in the day when I had time.
+
+[7:14] Oh, you watch that crap. No, I don't. I have no idea what's going on. People, Mustace. Oh, oh, in The Bachelor, but you watch other I watch nothing.
+
+[7:24] That's it. Did you see the uh the uh Upper East Side rap? Yeah, it was good. It was good. My favorite line is they say that I'm I forget where I come from.
+
+[7:36] Uh no, I actually remember where I came from. That's where I live. That's why I live on the Upper East Side. Leslie uh Leslie Jones is a fan of pasta flyer by the way. Uh she didn't trust you at first.
+
+[7:48] She didn't trust anyone that would draw a picture of her and like shrimp, yeah. Yeah, and she was like, I don't trust it. And then she was like, meh, okay. Yeah. Uh a friend recommended your podcast, and I enjoy it.
+
+[7:58] Oh, that's nice. I was wondering if you might be able to shed some light on a couple of questions I have regarding custard-based ice cream. I'm trying to find a way to streamline the process of making the base and cooking the eggs without having to temper and then heat them again to 160 to 170 and then allowing them to cool. My thoughts are to sous-vie the entire thing, steeping the ingredients and all, and then just strain, cool, and freeze with LN. That's liquid nitrogen, people.
+
+[8:20] The problem I'm having is I want to make 12 quart batches of the base at a time. And having uh to cook the eggs, steep the flavoring uh and and having it cook the eggs and steep the flavored ingredients, with this larger batch even be possible in this manner. Would you have any suggestions there? I mean, 12 quarts of base is like, I don't know, about six times the amount that we used to make, but you we'd make you could make all that in a circulator. I'd put like probably you know, the way that we used to do it, if you were gonna do sous vide uh on a on a base like that, is to put them all in a vacuum bag, uh, about you know, two quarts per bag, suck the vacuum, make sure they don't leak, and then throw them in for at 82 to 83 degrees uh Celsius for you know between 15 and 20 minutes, pull them out and then throw them on the counter, slap dab, slap it, slap, slap, slap, slap.
+
+[9:11] You gotta slap them, otherwise the texture's weird. And then they're they're good, they're pasteurized, and you know, they they stay good for a long time. It's also very fast to cool them down that way because you can just throw them right in the ice bucket. But it is kind of uh uh a lot to do. Let me read the rest of your that's how I would do it if you were going to do it in uh the bag.
+
+[9:28] You get very good flavor. Now, while I normally tell everyone that you can do almost everything in a Ziploc bag that you can do in a uh vacuum bag, and that that's mostly true. Um, putting things in a vacuum bag with uh with ice cream base is you can blend the eggs with the base, literally with a blender, blend the eggs with the base. Um I do it with uh not with the cream, with the milk. So usually I'll blend the eggs with the milk, then add the cream, stir in so that I'm not over whipping the cream.
+
+[9:59] Duh. But uh it blends up the halaza, so you don't really need to strain that much. It's kind of nice that way. Uh the disadvantage of bagging is you have to be very vigilant when you're using a vacuum machine with with uh with a bait with a base with eggs in it. Think about it, eggs and milk.
+
+[10:15] Two of the biggest foam capturing things that you can get. And so, you know, what happens is is the base makes a real run for the border. So you need like relatively big bags, you need a lot of airspace so that you have time to hit the stop button as the base flies towards the seal bar and wants to shoot out. Okay, uh, let me read the rest of your question. My other thought is to steep the milk/slash cream uh and sous-vide only the weight weighed out liquid yolk, and then blending the two warm ingredients together, which would eliminate the extra step of tempering the eggs and then cooking the whole base together again.
+
+[10:44] Yeah, uh so a couple of things. One, uh, when you're in a I think I said this on the air before, but when you're making a custard base uh for an ice cream, you know, well-known, you know, delicious ice cream makers like Sam Mason, for instance, don't like the taste so much of cooked eggs. So he actually does super low temperature pasteurization of the eggs, but doesn't cook out the custard base, right? So the two things you're doing, you're you're you're doing well, three things. One, you're you're heating the milk to steep your flavors in, right?
+
+[11:16] So that's one, uh milk and or cream. One. Uh two, you um are you know, you need to at some point pasteurize your egg yolks. Uh and three, and by the way, one easy way to do this uh the whole this whole tempering nonsense is to mix the um is to only steep in a part of your base, right? Steep heat steep part of your base, mix the rest of the base back in with cold stuff into your eggs, and then put that mix directly into the hot and it won't curdle.
+
+[11:47] But whatever, I digress. Uh, especially if um there's sugar in the especially if the sugar goes in with the egg yolks and some of the liquid mix, the sugar will also protect against curdling. So if you have lit if you have some of the liquid plus the sugar with the with the egg yolk mix, um you shouldn't need to do that much tempering to get it back into your steeping liquid. But again, I digress. Um but he doesn't like the taste of the cooked eggs, so he would pasteurize his egg yolks and then put them into uh into his milk, milk cream, and whatever, whatever flavor base.
+
+[12:18] The other, but the the thing that you get from the standard cooking of bringing it, bringing it up and making like uh, you know, uh standard creme anglaise or a custard base, is that the whole mix gets thicker, and when it gets thicker, it it affects the texture of the ice cream, one as it melts, but two, what its melting properties are. So you know, my experience is is that thicker bases have a uh you know a different kind of meltdown. Now, if you get a super hyper stabilized like a gelato, you know, some of those gelatos, and this is why they dope them so hard with flavor, because when you add hey, I was not faced towards anything. I did the real sneeze. Don't you know, don't give me people people need to sneeze, Nastasia.
+
+[13:03] Meanie. Um when you have when you add as much uh um stabilizers and thickeners as they do in Italian gelato, you need to really add a lot of my goodness! Jeez! You need to add a lot of uh flavoring, and that's I think also why they got in the habit of adding so much freaking color. This is why gelato is so freaky the texture's great, right?
+
+[13:27] But uh anyway, very heavily stabilized. So when you um when you're thickening, you can get that thickness from um doing an anglaise base. Uh and and the egg cust the egg, like cooked egg thickening does obscure flavors somewhat. This is why some people like the egless flavor of, let's say, a Philadelphia style ice cream, which is just kind of a cream milk base without a lot of it. And by the way, that stuff is good, but only good the instant you make it.
+
+[13:56] Like for any of those, and we've said this before, who lived in the New York metropolitan area, uh, you know, in the 80s, 90s, Briar's ice cream used to be a straight Philly's i Philly ice cream. In other words, it had didn't have eggs, didn't have any stabilizers, and it sucked, right? If you lived at the factory and you got it right when it came out of the machine and you ate it, then it was great, which is like all that Philly style stuff. But then, you know, if you put it in your freezer, it kind of blows. Anyway, and especially Briars used to sell it in the half gallon.
+
+[14:25] You never got that out west, right, Nastasia? No. You even know what I'm talking about. No. They used to have commercials where like, it's only got ingredients I can pronounce.
+
+[14:34] Why would I give a crap whether a little kid can pronounce ingredients on whether or not I'm gonna buy a product? You know what I mean? Like, uh uh it doesn't make any sense. Does that make any sense to you, Nastasia? What if it's an ingredient that is very common, but it's in another language and the kid can't pronounce it?
+
+[14:49] Like, what if I'm eating fuck uh freak? What if I'm eating gooseneck barnacles and the kid's like, Barnac, barna barna, can't pronounce it. Don't eat it. Fine, more for me. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:59] Like, I hated that advertisement. But the even worse thing about it is now Briars was like, hey, you know what? This stuff sucks. And they added a whole bunch of stabilizers to it, so now they can't even say that. No offense, Philadelphia people who grew up near the factory and it was good when you were grown up.
+
+[15:13] Whatever. Anyway. Uh, so point is is that um cooking the egg uh also gives uh texture for meltdown. You can add that texture back with thickeners, but be aware that, like when you're doing Italian gelato, if you add stabilizers, you're gonna be masking flavor, and if you mask flavor, you need to add a lot extra. Even the fat in um in like cream uh masks flavors, which is why some people, and I actually am one of these people really enjoy chocolate sorbet.
+
+[15:42] Do you like chocolate sorbet, Nastassi? I love it. Because it's like as chocolatey, it's as chocolatey as you can get, right? It's not as smooth and creamy, but it's as chocolate as you can get in a frozen confection, in my opinion. Um anyway, what do you think?
+
+[15:57] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That was uh that was from Michael Penn. This episode is presented by the Green Grape, a family of three businesses on Fulton Street, committed to supporting small scale farms, celebrating seasonality, and delighting our customers. Order local pasture-raised meats and cheeses to pair with our selection of fine wines and spirits, and we'll deliver it to your door at no extra charge. From great local gifts to providing you all you need for a delicious meal, the Green Grape offers truly special and hard to find products created by New York's community of local makers.
+
+[16:36] Support independent grocers and our site to learn more. Visit Greengrape.com. That's green with an E. G-R E E E-N-E, G-R-A-P-E.com. Are you enjoying this podcast?
+
+[16:50] Heritage Radio has plenty more. Hi, I'm Harry Rosenblum, and I'm the host of Feast Your Ears here on HRN. My show explores the world of food through storytelling. Every week, I talk with people inside and outside the food world about how experience has shaped what they eat and cook. You can find Feast Your Ears wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[17:13] Elliot uh Papanow wrote in. I haven't heard from him in a while. And I I don't know. There's two questions on this, so I'm gonna find the other one and we'll do them at the same time. Uh any tips on making infusion with dry herbs in grain alcohol.
+
+[17:24] What do you think of people who call herbs herbs? Nastasi's like, don't care, I'm gonna kill you. Um see. And then here, we're back into also uh we have another question in on the similar thing on infusions from Todd. So I will read them together, Elliot, and we will take it all at the same time.
+
+[17:40] I'm running from Park Slope with a question on making a morrow using uh an ISI whipper. I forget, did they ever land on EC or is it ISI here? I can't remember because it was one in the US and one in Europe, and they decided on one, and I can't remember. No, no. You like don't know, don't care.
+
+[17:56] Why do you still have your coat on? It's cold. And also you have five minutes. Get to the questions. I have seven minutes and whatever.
+
+[18:02] Uh I learned about the rapid infusion technique from liquid intelligence and have used it to make some nice infusions in Amari. Uh thanks for sharing your methods. Uh I have a half-liter whipper and have had good success making uh Amari with 80-proof vodka and rapid infusion to get good extractions and nice bright flavors and aroma. That said, the common wisdom on the internet seems to be that you need 151 or everclear to get good extractions. I think the EC technique uh probably offsets some of the need for high-proof spirits.
+
+[18:27] My thought is that high proof in the whipper and diluting after extraction might give the best quality. Uh is this a good idea? Will I end up with great extractions or will they be too aggressive and dry up bad flavors, they get left behind with a lower proof. Is there any way to know what ingredients will likely give a good or bad result at higher proof so I can avoid a lot of trial and error? Uh my typical recipes are bittered with gensin at around 1%.
+
+[18:48] Um, and uh blend of dry spices, blah, blah, blah, vanilla bean. Um, and would you shift the ratios for higher proof extraction? Okay. And then a follow-up is they want to know about lab grade ethanol. Uh, is it better than everclear?
+
+[19:02] Is it 100% safe? Okay. Oh, and they also want to know about the second book, Nastasia. So, you know, she gave a she gave a uh a fat chance, good luck, jerkweed look. That was that was that that was a look on Nastasi's face.
+
+[19:14] So, regarding your questions, um one. One, if you change the proof, you will get uh faster extraction. Um, I have done EC stuff with extremely high proof, you know, nine almost a hundred lab grade uh ethanol and done very, very pure, very extreme um tinctures. Uh I don't it's gonna taste different. So if you like the flavor you're getting now, right?
+
+[19:46] If you increase the extraction rate uh with this, you know, I don't know how to be honest, I don't know how it's gonna shift. My guess is that it's probably gonna be a little bit harsher or a lot harsher for the same amount of time. Generally, the high pressure, high, high force, rapid techniques um tend to extract high notes uh earlier than than base notes. So you're using kind of, for instance, let's take a particular ingredient like you know, genshin or whatever. You're gonna use probably even though you the thing about genshin, it's weird, is like you want bitterness.
+
+[20:19] Let's move something else like saffron. We use this at the bar, right? So saffron's got a range of flavors in it. So you have the kind of more vegetal base notes, and you know, kind of more bitter, like uh kind of cooked flour notes, and then you have the more the kind of flowery top notes. And rapid does a good job of shifting towards those high notes, right?
+
+[20:40] Now, it might mean you need to use more of the saffron than you would use. You're using it for a shorter period of time and you're extracting you know j just these high notes. If you increase that alcohol level, you're increasing the rate of extraction for most of the uh most of the things. Now, some things are very soluble in water, and so you can't really tell. You're gonna shift one direction or another.
+
+[21:00] You're gonna get a higher extraction into higher ethanol for sure. Whether it's better or worse, I don't know. Um, high-proof ethanol is pretty bad. It's easier to get kind of lower proof, decent quality, neutral uh alcohols. Um you have obviously more wiggle room if you're using a higher proof spirit, if you're gonna add sugars and stuff like that to end up, I don't know what you want your end result to be.
+
+[21:22] Lab grade ethanol can be good, right? The problem is is you have to make sure that it doesn't have benzene in it, because most lab grade ethanol uh has residual benzene in it, and you don't want that. You want to make sure it says USP uh, you know, or food grade, and you know, even those aren't really necessarily meant to consume as a beverage. They're kind of meant for kind of drug things, so I don't even know whether or not they're cool as a as a drinking liquid. That said, I have used it for that.
+
+[21:51] There are relatively expensive high grade pure ethanols available like tech reserve here in New York, but the standard 151 is everclear is is pretty gnarly business. Now, what you can do, and I have done I have done this, is get get yourself a Brita filter, and before you do your stuff with your 151, you gotta seal it because it's gonna you're gonna evaporate very quickly, and the vapors are obviously explosive. Is put it through a brittle like five, six, seven times, and you can take that nasty ever clear and the charcoal will get rid of some of the some of the nast, nass, nasties. Um, and so that's what I would do. And those are kind of similar uh to um you know the tips I would give you for uh dry herbs in in grain alcohol.
+
+[22:35] Um Megan wrote in Megan Lauren, any tips on best coffee making practices for camping? Entering a coffee competition where I will only have fire, a pot of water, and a hand grinder, and my choice of non-electric coffee making device. So, uh, Megan, question. I don't know how unreasonable of a person you are, right? Or what style of coffee you're gonna make.
+
+[22:58] So let's say you were an extremely, extremely uh unreasonable person. You could go get a um a gas-fired, you could even wood fire it and convert it, like old La Mart Soco um lever press machine and a Ferro's two hand grinder, and you could be pumping out, you know, um extremely high quality espresso shots using no electricity, like none. And by the way, if you did that, I think I I mean, I hope that you're very, very strong, because even a backpack, I would have a tough, tough time carrying that sucker around because I think that they only make them in like two and three groups. Like a one-group espresso machine is heavy enough, and I've never seen a gas-fired uh one grouper, but let me just say the quality out of those machines is impeccable, and although it's not in the spirit of camping, it would be pretty damn sick. Uh, most people I know that do good coffee in uh in a camp and or travel scenario are all aeropress people.
+
+[23:59] I've never done a lot of testing on the optimum grind for uh aeropress, and unless you're a poor over person, obviously you can do that fantastically. The problem is most of my grinding um is kind of skewed towards the espresso side of the grind, and you should go look, I don't know what grinder you're using, but there are very few grinders that are good at kind of very fine grinding and very coarse grinding. Um there's a lot of reasons for it, and Nastasia's giving me the I don't have time to get into it right now, but get back to me with kind of more what the uh like rules, what style of coffee you want to make, and uh and we can get into it. Um, although on a follow-up, Sam wrote in and said, We'll so Ferros, there's these guys in uh in uh Idaho who make this uh Orphan Espresso, it's this uh I think their husband and wife team that make these uh grinders uh and they make uh the Lido and the Pharos uh and their thing is they put professional quality burrs like big ones like like I think the one that I have in the Pharos is from the Mazer Roberts uh big big burrs into their and you know high quality uh into their um grinders so that you can have this hand grinder that's you know it's not electric, but also instead of five, you know, $3,000, you're gonna pay like $300, $200. So I had one of the original ones.
+
+[25:17] I made a lot of modifications to it because there's a lot of things I hated about it. Like you couldn't just pour beans into it. You had to like do this like ridiculous kind of like shuffle to like get the beans into the hopper. Uh it also had this horrible, horrible way of capturing grounds in the bottom of it so that the grounds would get caught, so I had to build like a fake doser almost. It was kind of a nightmare.
+
+[25:40] It was great quality coffee, but kind of a nightmare to use. Pharos updated their grinder to, I mean, sorry, Orphan Espresso updated their grinder to Pharos 2, and they solved most all of the problems, right? Most all of them. Uh the exception is that they don't have uh a hopper to throw the beans in. And the question, I put one on uh on in my Dropbox and made it available to the universe for Pharos 1.
+
+[26:04] The question is, will that one work directly on the Pharos 2? Answer, no. It is modifiable with a knife. In other words, I didn't reprint it when I did the conversion. They also they sell a conversion kit, Ferro's one owners.
+
+[26:17] So I went and I bought a conversion kit, I converted it, and I was able to modify it with a knife and a grinder to make my old hopper work on the new one. But I if you want or if anyone's interested, I will go back, find my files, and do the uh do a little 3D CAD food to them to make them um directly printable because it really is a good modification for the Ferris. Nastasi's like, why don't you shut up, Dave? We gotta go do stuff. Anyway, uh more what's next week.
+
+[26:45] I might not be here next week. Is that Cuomo? Which Cuomo? Andrew or Andrew or or Chris Cuomo? Andrew, I think.
+
+[26:53] I do not think the governor of New York is. Who knows? Who knows? Nastasi's gonna go pest for him about the MTA. Cooking issues.
+
+[27:11] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you for our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[27:30] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, and more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like.
+
+[27:49] Tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by MoFad, the museum of food and drink, inspiring public curiosity about food. Learn more at Mofad.org. This week on Meet and Three, we bring you stories about the coldest, darkest season. We start in a California vineyard. It's cold, but it's wet and things are still alive.
+
+[0:24] There's a lot of life in this soil. We explore two frontiers of cocktail culture: luxury ice and the rise of non-alcoholic drinks. The rocks traditionally becomes 25% of your drinks volume. And as such, it imparts smells and tastes. And we investigate the risks facing New York City delivery workers during the harsh winter.
+
+[0:45] In the wintertime, after two hours of biking, it's quite easy actually for the bikes to sing upside down or slips or slides. Tune in to this week's episode of Meet and Three. That's M E A T plus Sign T-H-R-E-E for some food for thought to sustain you through the dead of winter. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:29] How are you doing? Good. Who, even though we actually had the opportunity to start at 12 on the on the button for once, she's like, I gotta go pee. You know, look, I gotta go pee. And then she's like, you're always late.
+
+[1:41] Why can't I be late? It's like, because I am researching your questions, people. That is why I am late in the morning. And she's like, but I have to put it together at midnight. Which means people, I don't have the questions until I'm already getting ready to go to bed because.
+
+[1:54] Why don't you pee earlier? Oh well, that was our that was our special guest, Joshua David Stein. And I can tell, even though we've never met that I like this guy a lot. And we got Matthew in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[2:08] Oh, excellent. Yeah. Strong. Alright. Call in your questions to 718 497 2128.
+
+[2:16] That's 718-497-2128. So you go by you go by just by Josh. Josh or Joshua. What do you like? Joshua.
+
+[2:23] Joshua. Alright. So you used to be the uh restaurant critic at uh The Observer. That's the pink one. Yeah.
+
+[2:30] Well, it's the pink one. It's not pink anymore? It doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, well, that would make it not pink. Yeah.
+
+[2:36] But you resigned before they stopped existing, right? Correct. Yes. Because you it was political. Now not a political show.
+
+[2:42] A few ground rules. Oh, yeah. Let's go over them. Ground rules are family show, no cursing. So I noticed that uh I listened to your podcast with Jamie Oliver and the man likes to curse.
+
+[2:53] Let me tell you something else. I also, Nastasia, do I enjoy cursing? Yeah. Nastasia also very much enjoys cursing. I love cursing for the record.
+
+[3:01] How many like eight-year-olds are listening right now? Shouldn't they be in school? Couple. Oh, they listen to the backlog. Oh smart.
+
+[3:07] So anyway. No cursing. No cursing. And we are in general apolitical. Occasionally our views will seep through, but very rarely.
+
+[3:16] You're apolitical. On the show. Right. In the real life, I am not a political. Right, but this is show Dave.
+
+[3:23] The show, Dave. Yes. Show Dave's apolitical and PG. Other than other than the cursing and Nastasia, too. Nastasia is also mostly apolitical here and also doesn't curse.
+
+[3:35] So you're getting. I will say this, though. Pretty much, other than that, we're pretty much the way we are. Okay. So, you know, if you know Nastasia from before, she is pretty much still nostassified minus the cursing and the political views.
+
+[3:49] Arms crossed, legs crossed. Just very angry at us for poking fun at her about the pee. So she's got a although I was also peeing. And I will say something. You know, I used to have a show on Heritage Radio.
+
+[4:01] Yeah. Uh the Joshua David Sun Variety Hour, half hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and when I was here, those bathrooms were not nearly as nice. I have never I have I I used to go to the bathrooms here every once in a while.
+
+[4:15] I have a an aversion to public restrooms. I did test them. Yes. I have at my own bar I have to go into them to make sure that they're not filthy and disgusting. But otherwise, I mean, that's why I have a home.
+
+[4:24] Yes. So that I can pee and put it. That's the only reason. Yeah. Right.
+
+[4:28] Honestly, like if you said to me, hey Dave, although I have a very nice bed, but you which you don't peer poop in. I don't peer poop, not usually, no. Uh, but if you said you could choose between the bathroom and the bed, I'd be like, bathroom straight up. Yeah. Well, what do you mean?
+
+[4:46] In other words, if you had to solve for like the better room in an apartment or home, you would get a nicer bathroom. Yeah, in other words, like let's say there was two, let's say there was two. This is a no brainer. Let's say there was two bedrooms, one with a bathroom, but it was like like a garbage room. It was actually somehow uncom mentally uncomfortable to sleep there.
+
+[5:08] But it had its own bathroom. That would be my room. Right? Versus the super nice one where you had to share the bathroom with like whoever else is in your house. I feel like I'm a bedroom kind of guy.
+
+[5:19] Yeah, not me. No. Because I'm so involved in my own phone when I'm using the toilet that like the out the outer external ex you know, external environment doesn't affect me as much. Well, so let me put it this way. Uh so uh Joshua's uh editor editor at large or editor?
+
+[5:38] Editor at large. Editor at large of a website called Fatherly and hosts a podcast with the same name which deals with dad issues. Nastasia hates fathers, by the way. Yeah, I read on text message. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:49] She detests fathers. I would like to dig into, but she says we can't. It's good. We do a whole thing. We totally can as long as we keep it on the semi-food side.
+
+[5:57] You'll notice that this is ostensibly a technically related food show. We will get to it. But uh very sensibly. But as a father, I would think that you would appreciate having two doors between you and the world. So in the bathroom, first of all, like my kids, especially Booker and my my older son, who's been on the show a number of times, former employee of Nastasi Lopez's.
+
+[6:19] Didn't get fired, people did not he did not get fired. They're still on good terms. Uh so he doesn't quite understand the I'm in the bathroom, don't speak to me. Oh yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean?
+
+[6:31] Like, I'm in the bathroom, I am this is it's the only me time. Yeah. This is me time. Like, the dogs aren't there, kids aren't there, no one's there. Me time.
+
+[6:41] I really hate being talked to while I'm in the bathroom. Yeah. But I feel like some people it's okay with. My son, well, he's seven, so he's not listening. Yeah.
+
+[6:49] Although he might listen to the backlog. Um, he demands company while he's going to the bathroom. That's his choice though. Yeah, but it's his choice, not mine. And like, and like it's not super.
+
+[7:02] I mean, we talk, it's like good quality time. I was also thinking this morning, um, how old are your kids? Uh, they're 17 and 14. Oh, so they're too old. Mine are five and seven.
+
+[7:13] And so they're just getting out of it, but watching a five, watching a little kid poop is like the most touching thing. Because their face, they're trying so hard. You know, like they're just really pushing it out, and uh, it's adorable. If they're trying too hard, you gotta soften up that stool. Let's talk about food and diet.
+
+[7:31] Well, no, perfect transition. First of all, a little another fact, and I'm not speaking out of turn here, Nastasia, so she's not gonna get mad at me. She will she loves Italy, the place. Yeah. Does not like Italians because they only talk about two things.
+
+[7:48] Nastasi, what are those two things? Eating and pooing. You're not even talking to your microphone. Yeah, you're so off mic. Eating and pooing.
+
+[7:54] Yeah. Pooing? Yeah, digested. Is that true? Yeah.
+
+[7:58] That's all they talk about. If you listen into any conversation Italian is having, yeah. It's about food or whether they digested. And two things Nastasia never speaks about in pu in when she's not working, food, yeah. And digestion.
+
+[8:13] And digestion. Well, she does talk about digestion sometimes. Well, you know, uh, maybe Italy already had its cultural moment. Yeah. Oh, by the way, is that northern and southern or just I because this is uh publicly aired, I'm just gonna push back on that a little bit.
+
+[8:29] I feel like I've talked to a fair number of Italians about subject matter falling outside of that criteria. Food. Not for yeah, about other things. Politics. Yeah, but I mean, I look, this is Nastasia's point, not mine.
+
+[8:41] So you have to go to with Nustasi on this add nothing to nothing to do with it. Yeah, okay. Well, you know, your truth is your truth. You should speak it. I don't believe it.
+
+[8:49] We have a caller on the air with a question about Italians. Really? I don't believe in separate truths. Oh, yeah? You're no postmodernists?
+
+[8:56] A pl uh all right, caller, you're on the air. Let's talk about Italians. What do we got? Hi, Dave. This is Chris in DC from the Green Zone.
+
+[8:59] Oh, how you doing? Good, man. I was in New York this weekend once the book rent or once the conditions played. Nice. I loved it.
+
+[9:11] Yeah, man. Try to find almost every drink on the menu and have some questions about vinos. Um pooping. Yeah. Um, first of all, um, I wanted to know I have a spinzall, but I know that the solid, the amount of solids that the rotor can contain is around 300 grams, right?
+
+[9:34] No, more well, it can contain more. It can contain up to the full capacity of the rotor. The issue is is that um the issue is is that the puck doesn't distribute evenly. So once you get over about 300, like odds are it'll start leaking out over one of the areas where it's built up more. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[9:54] Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah, because you know, uh, I figured I could do, you know, a liter or two of, you know, whatever Hustino at a time, but if I wanted to do enough for, let's say, a week's worth of service at the bar, I would need to do multiple, multiple loads. And I was wondering if there's any way to do it in volume without having uh multiple spin zones. Uh well, I mean, if you have infinite time, you can just do an initial spin, let a little bit leak out, and then do a polish spin.
+
+[10:22] And so that you'll you'll increase your ability to do without touching it. Depends on the Houstino, but like for banana Houstino, you can't really do more than about two liters before you start getting some banana leaks. But if you do like a bunch of liters and only stop it once it starts getting violently pissed off, it'll eventually get violently pissed off at you. But once you uh or and it'll start leaking stuff out of the aeration cup, right? But it's you're gonna capture enough of your solids so that you can then just get it all on a polishing run.
+
+[10:50] And it takes a lot physically longer, but it's no it's not uh attended time, if that makes sense. Right, that makes sense. And so for the polishing one, I could just stick the you know, it can do the whole batch on continuous. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[11:05] If there's only a little bit in there, like there is in let's say apple juice or grapefruit juice or orange juice, then you know, I've never like usually the the limitation is just my patience. Well, I mean, I was thinking something more uh substantive, like bananas or dates or other dried fruit. Sure, sure, sure. But on the second spin, right? So if you're just like letting it get a little bit cloudy before you stop it and clear out the puck, but then on your second spin, then you can polish the whole second spin without touching it once.
+
+[11:36] Right, that makes sense. Um on the same subject, um, one of your bartenders mentioned so I have Tectanex Ultra SPL for modern pantry. Yeah. But they mention it called D1 and D2. Yeah.
+
+[11:51] What is that? That that's the Kiesel Sol and the Kitasan. Those are the wine finding agents. And you can buy you can buy you can also buy them on Amazon, but Modernist Pantry is the only one that sells the fungally-based kitesan, otherwise you'd be putting shrimp into people's stuff. But it's not allergic.
+
+[12:08] I have both of those anyway. So for so for banana and casino, he said he was using those as well. Nah, does he? Nah, he doesn't need to. No, that's nah.
+
+[12:15] I mean, you can, but nah. Right. Banana, like, banana wants to clarify. Banana wants to clarify, dude. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:24] Banana totally wants to clarify. That's Joshua, by the way, he's talking to me. I'm an expert on clarification. Really? For real?
+
+[12:30] Yeah. He's he's I is that true? Because I am an actual expert on clarification. Are you also actually an expert on clarification? I mean, like, I'm a writer, so I try to write clear, concise sentences.
+
+[12:40] Oh. Okay. Oh, I get it. I get it. Uh, it will help it settle faster on the polishing run, though.
+
+[12:48] So, what I recommend is I would do the entire initial run, just SPL, clear out your solids, and then if you want to flock that stuff harder, you can hit it with the D1, D2 while you're waiting. Someone looked at us, held their stomach, and made the I feel sick look. Like they looked directly at us and gave us this. Those guys? Yeah.
+
+[13:08] Yeah, they're Italian. They're Italian. He's like, I look at these guys. I want to eat, but I need the poop. I think the guy with the scarf.
+
+[13:14] The movements are a little loose in him. That's like Star Wars Star Wars mixed with Italian poop represents. The movements are loose in this one. Yeah, we're getting super meta here. Anyway, let us know how it works.
+
+[13:26] And it was uh glad you made it to the bar. So the Keepersong Cut it are useful, not just in high acid applications? Uh yes. In the in the large centrifuge, they are mostly used in high acid applications, but in the spinzall, I tend to use them in any application because they increase settling and compacting. They really they increase the compacting rate.
+
+[13:47] Okay. Alright, good enough. Alright, cool. Alright. Now, what we what was we talking about?
+
+[13:53] Italians, and you didn't agree. Alright, so uh before you get into it, you actually have another caller on the air. Is this one actually gonna ask about Italian? It cannot be that caller. Yeah, no, they promised there was the question was about Italians.
+
+[14:05] Wait, can I ask one question? You're not a caller. What? What was that guy talk? I don't what was he talking about?
+
+[14:11] I did not understand any. It's per personal calls between Dave and just tell me. And B a political, I should have also mentioned we're very niche. Yeah. We're like an extremely niche show.
+
+[14:27] But can you just tell me, like in one word, what just what? So listen, listen when we first started Umpteen Million Years ago, I would have said, for those of you who don't know, we're talking about clarifying juices and liquors and centrifuges which separate out solids based on density using teethable force. I would have prefaced everything with the city. So who do you think the dude was? He owns a bar in DC, I know.
+
+[14:53] Yeah, yeah. He owns a bar in DC. So uh and they they work with mint, etc. etc. Anyway, so I I should maybe go back to the way we used to talk because at this point I'm like, anyone whose ears happen to be hitting this are like, I don't know how many times I gotta hear about the damn centrifuge.
+
+[15:10] My God. I loved it, but it was like rarely in my life do I hear a solid block of 10 minutes where I it which I know is in English, but I have absolutely no idea. Welcome to my life, bro. But I really like the line that banana what is it, banana seeking banana houstino, yeah. That's a no no no no bananas seek clarification.
+
+[15:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They they want to clarify. They clarify hard. It just happens Bananas want to clarify. It just so happens that one of the like first of all, like half, at least half the stuff in life is luck, right?
+
+[15:39] So it happens to be that the first thing I attempted to clarify was bananas, and they happen to clarify very well. So who knows where Nastasi and I would be in life if we had chosen something that's more difficult to clarify? Let me ask you. I know we have a caller, but like um are some things in the world they tend towards clarification, and some things in the world tend towards obfuscation. For sure.
+
+[16:00] Liquidy, liquid wise? Oh yeah, sure. I guess like also medical. Well, both probably, huh? Yes.
+
+[16:06] Yeah. Do you tend toward clarification? Uh so here's the thing. I tend to be very clear about very obscure points. So I wrote a book.
+
+[16:15] This is first of all, I don't know. I wrote a book where literally it's about minutiae trying to make clear points about stuff that very few people care about. How did that sell? Uh it's it's pretty well, actually, but um Nastasia uses it famously only to keep hot and cold foods separate. It's not too heavy, and yet it is oh, you know what?
+
+[16:37] I should just make you a piece of styrofoam with two masonite boards. Be lighter even than liquid intelligence. Are you someone, Nastasia, who tends towards clarification in your life or obfuscation? Oh, hell no. She's clear telling you how she feels.
+
+[16:51] But everything else, pretty much. What do you think? I guess that's true. Call her. Yeah.
+
+[16:59] You have a question about Italians, I hear. Uh no, I do not. Oh my god. Matthew's a liar. Oh my god.
+
+[17:05] All right, Matthew, you're a liar. I no longer trust you. I don't believe you. You're a liar. What is your question?
+
+[17:11] No, or hey y'all, this is Devin. I called in uh a couple of weeks ago about that gumbo sausage. Don't have an update on that, but had a question that sort of physics related. Uh starting with uh experimentation on pressure, marinating some meat. Okay.
+
+[17:27] Real quick, I was thinking I have a chamber vacuum machine, and if I pull a full vacuum on that, uh what would be the pressure equivalent uh that the meat would experience if I were to put just the unsinkle bag into a corny keg and pressurize that? It's not just the atmosphere, or this is a good question. And it's not, it's okay. It's a good question. I'll go back to my old old Dave, old cooking issues.
+
+[17:44] And I will fill it. So we're talking about here is uh using shifting pressures to increase either marination or penetration of flavorful things into, in this case, meats. Now, uh when you're using a vacuum, what you're doing is you're removing all of the air. So if there's zero air on the inside of a product, you get there's like zero net effect on it. Then when you release the pressure, when you release the vacuum, the 15 psi comes in and it's like hitting it with a 15 psi kind of wave of pressure.
+
+[18:24] Now, what's the effect on the product? Well, uh when you're putting something under a high vacuum, it tends to boil apart, so you're actually separating the fibers. So there is some effect of fiber separation due if you have a high enough vacuum. There's some uh effect to fiber separation due to the boiling uh out of the of the water as it as it turns to a vapor under the low pressure, and then you'll get some injection into that space when the when the pressure rehits. Now there are prof now in the professional world, they use vacuum tumbling and it opens up the pores and interstitial places inside of the meat, and then they tumble under a vacuum.
+
+[18:58] And those people, and I've never run the tests, claim that if you suck too hard of a vacuum, it actually hinders that sort of action because instead of just opening it up, it'll open and then collapse the meat back together again. Is it true? Is it false? I don't know. But what happens under pressure is you're taking something and forcing past atmospheric, way past atmospheric.
+
+[19:21] So the most pressure you're ever gonna get, let's say you had a sponge, the most pressure you're ever gonna get in a vacuum scenario is 15 PSI over pressure to inject into something, right? In a pressure scenario, you could easily do 60 PSI, which is four times more pressure than you get out of a vacuum. So pressure is always more effective at jamming something into something than is uh than is a vacuum. Does that make sense? Yep.
+
+[19:48] Yeah. Now, um, if I were to just use CO2, do you know what effect that has on the meat? I don't. It will have some effect. It'll shift the pH.
+
+[19:59] Uh also when you cook it, the CO2 is going to vaporize back out uh uh of it. I don't know what it's gonna do, for instance, to the color of it. If I don't it might have no effect on the on the redox state of the meat, I don't know. Um realize though that the CO2 will go into solution in the meat, and when you release the pressure, you'll get some bubbling of the you'll get like some bubbling. So if you fully carbonate the meat, it will like I remember back when I was first doing forced carbonation, people were like, everyone wanted to carbonate solids.
+
+[20:30] And I was like, first of all, I don't really like the taste of carbonated fruit because it tastes like it's spoiled. Food critic, back me up. Yeah. Yep, say spoiled. So I'm like, nah, I don't like that.
+
+[20:39] So um, but they're like, can you carbonate ice cream? Answer, no, you can carbonate the liquids that are not frozen in ice cream, but it's hard to get, and also I once blew up a Taylor ice cream machine at the French Culinary Institute. Sam Mason, ice cream savant, came over and we tried to hook a CO2 tank up to a Taylor ice cream machine. We blew all the seals, it sprayed, sprayed base every first of all, if you're gonna do it, what kind of a moron starts with with ice cream base instead of with uh like like a like a sorbet? This idiot.
+
+[21:08] This idiot. Anyway, so uh and I was never forgiven by the pastry department, but the point is that uh carbonating is a pain in the butt. But I did eventually do uh wine jellies, so like gelatin set. So I would do is I would I would force carbonate warm gelatin at very high pressure, very high pressure, uh like 100 psi, in uh soda bottles with carbonated wine and gelatin, and then you would cut the bottle open to get out the the carbonated uh champagne jello jello, and it was so much force on the inside of it that like the the gel would if you didn't make a hard gel, it would self-rupture. It would sit there and like, you know, it would like alien on you, it would like brrrh break apart.
+
+[21:53] Great. It was good, it was good. It's dramatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, everyone likes everyone likes dramatic.
+
+[21:58] If you're trying to make ice cream in some imaginary scenario in like a hyperbaric chamber, pressurized with CO2, freezing the base in there and whatnot, there's no way to get a carbonated ice cream. If you go with extremely high pressure, right, you will get some sensation. The issue is is the question you have to ask yourself is how cold is it? Right? So if you're taking it at, you know, um, if you so if if if you're taking it at draw temperature, which is about what, 22 Fahrenheit, something in there, uh, you're gonna have that's what you would draw it out of the machine at.
+
+[22:30] It, you know, you're gonna have X, I'd have to look at the curves, but you're gonna have X liquid left in it, not frozen. That liquid can be carbonated, the solids cannot. So people are like, but they make carbonated slushies. Yes, there are ice crystals and there is liquid. It is the liquid that is carbonated, not the ice crystals.
+
+[22:49] There is no carbonated in the normal pressure regimes, there is no carbonated ice. There's carbonated liquid mixed with ice crystals. So slushies are easy. Ice cream, not as easy. You could probably get some sensation of it if you used extremely high pressures, but then how the heck are you gonna freeze it?
+
+[23:07] Yada yada. Josh, very good. This is interesting stuff. I appreciate it. Oh, but you can use pop rocks.
+
+[23:14] You can fold pop rocks, but they might melt. So you probably have to coat the pop rocks and fold them in. Anyway, let us know how your uh gumbo sausage works. Alright. So are we done with Italians or you want to talk more about how you uh Italian poops?
+
+[23:26] No, what's going on on your phone, Nastasia? I think she's so see. I'm glad, Joshua, that you are here because she doesn't pay attention to anything I say, anything the callers say. She sits there. It used to be she shops for shoes, never buys.
+
+[23:40] For real? Yeah, never buys them. I don't know why I'm gonna be able to do it. Never buys them. I've never done zappos.
+
+[23:45] Joshua, this is the most on mic time Nastasia's had in any show in like the last six months. Is that true? She just sits there, stares at her phone and hates. So checked out. I know.
+
+[23:54] I know. I know it. I know. You participate sometimes, but like four feet away from the microphone. But today you, sir, got her to be on mic.
+
+[24:04] Well, it's such an interesting dynamic to walk into. Like, yeah, not food. So that this shows out. Mostly hatred. Hatred.
+
+[24:13] Yeah, hatred. Yeah. Okay. She got called out. We won't get back into like her recent hatred rants because she got called out by a number of people on the Twitter.
+
+[24:20] Oh, no, but now that lady will be happy. She'll be really happy. So I I hate, I hated on beta males. It turns out that it's not a f it's not a beta fish that happens to be male. Right.
+
+[24:33] It's like the opposite of an alpha male. But everybody's supposed to hate alpha males. Right. Culturally, it's a male. Everybody will love this.
+
+[24:40] That hates on me. I was dating a beta male for how many dates? For a couple weeks. How many dates? I don't know.
+
+[24:48] Two. No, more. Four. And he dumped me. Oh.
+
+[24:53] Well, he he knew what you didn't like. He's like, and he's a friend of yours. He's my friend. He's like, I I have to, I have to assert myself. We're done.
+
+[25:03] Don't you feel like beta male. So I got my, I got what I I told him in the beginning, I was like, I don't do you. And he's like, turns out I don't do you. Wait. But a beta A beta male is an approach.
+
+[25:20] I mean, also, he's my friend. I mean, you might have you might have misread whether he's beta or alpha. Self-proclaimed. Yeah, well, I'm not sure. Wait, he's a self-proclaimed my friend.
+
+[25:32] Oh, see, beta males, beta males do not self-proclaim as beta males. So you're an anti-beta male. He's a beta in alpha. No, an alpha in beta clothing. 100%.
+
+[25:41] No beta male would say, I am a beta male, which is a clear, concise, forceful statement. Right? Only an alpha male would say that. I have to say, I like this guy. Yeah.
+
+[25:54] Making excellent points. Alright. So, back to food. You have uh written several books as now what term do you prefer when you're writing with somebody? What term do you prefer as your what's the term of art that you use?
+
+[26:09] Co-writer. Co-writer. Because I mean, it's something that we negotiate in the contract as well. Like, if I'm not listed at all, which hasn't been the case thus far because my ego's way too big, I would be a ghostwriter. Right, right.
+
+[26:20] But um, you know, whether you're on the cover, what size your name is, is it width, is it end? All those things are subject to endless negotiation. So when your name's on the okay, so let's just talk about it because it's not out yet. In fact, uh normally, by the way, Joshua, if you do this again, I need a copy of your book so I can read it, we could talk about it, but apparently you don't have a copy of your book. I don't I'm that guy that will actually read your entire book.
+
+[26:44] I'll send it to you for the future. He won't read it. This is not Nastasia's fault, by the way. This was 100% mine. Uh-huh.
+
+[26:51] So uh the chef, and now he was on what, Top Chef? He was on Top Chef, yeah. Which I have not seen because I don't watch food TV. Yeah, understandable. Uh Kwame uh Anwachi.
+
+[27:00] Yep. Had a restaurant in DC, like a high concept restaurant in DC. Yeah, Kith and Kin. Right. Which no, no, sorry.
+
+[27:06] It was called the Shaw Business. That's the new one. Yeah, new, but it's now about to, like in the next 25 seconds, open another place, right? Like, like right now. Philly wing fry.
+
+[27:15] Yeah. So we got the book deal two years ago. The book is called Notes from a Young Black Chef. It's out, I think in May. How old is he?
+
+[27:25] March. He's 29 now. I think. Yeah, he's really young. And we got the book deal two years ago, so he was 27.
+
+[27:31] Cool, cool. Um, it's out by Kanop. Uh yeah, so two years ago, he was about to open this uh restaurant called the Shaw Bijou, which is a was a 16-seat, super expensive, the most expensive restaurant I think in DC, apart from Mini Bar. Um, we got the deal, the restaurant opened, shut virtually immediately, three months. Just it was an unmitigated, I would say, disaster for a lot of reasons.
+
+[28:00] And were you there the whole time? You know, I live in New York, so I was like making the the trip, but I was the you know, I was down there for opening night. Opening night when Tom Seatsma, the critic of the Washington Post, Washington Post, um, he was the second person through that kitchen. And it was just a it was the partners weren't restaurant people, they didn't understand restaurants. Kwame was young and didn't have a lot of institutional support to run a restaurant at like the EMP level that he wanted.
+
+[28:30] It was just kind of impossible. And because DC's the market that DC is, because Kwame is not from DC, he was met with extreme hostility, I would say. Ooh. Like, yeah, 195 for a tasting menu from a young chef with no track record without uh wine and service, that's aggressive pricing. And like I'm of two minds.
+
+[28:52] One I'm not of two minds, I'm of one mind. You charge that much money, and you have to be on your A game. There it just there's no excuses. Yeah, you have to you have to comp any anything, anything bad happens, you have to comp out because it's not supposed to that's someone's money, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's not like you can have a like if you if you needed a period to get your feet under you, charge less, or do like a one-year friends and family or something, yeah.
+
+[29:17] But he didn't do it. Well, so it so here's the question because this actually, if it's about this kind of stuff, yeah, Stasia's still reading her reading her zappos. She's on Amazon shopping for it hurts my feelings a little bit. Really? Yeah, oh getting used to it.
+
+[29:31] Well, I feel like I should tell her that I it's distracting. Come on. Yeah, it's terrible. Uh it's it is horrifying. But uh, I feel like this is actually an interesting story.
+
+[29:40] Is this in the book? Because then you know it makes me want to read it. Yeah, that's the whole thing in the book is so basically, so the restaurant closes, he kind of goes on this journey and opens another restaurant called Kith and Kin, which is like vastly more affordable and kind of and and has been very successful. It's at the Intercontinental Uh Hotel in the wharf, which is like a new development in DC. Yeah, that's a big part of the book.
+
+[29:59] Some of his child, you know, he grew up in the Bronx. Um he's half Nigerian, went to live in Nigeria for two years as a teenager because he was getting in trouble up in the Bronx. Came back, hustled his way through culinary school, worked at Kraft, worked at EMP, worked at Per se experienced a lot of racism in fine dining kitchens. Um that's no shock. Yeah, but interestingly, I don't feel like it's talked about.
+
+[30:32] Um names aren't often named. So he doesn't you're not you're not mentioning who it was that was evil. Yeah, we do. You'll have to get the book to I mean, it's uh But actually the The Kitchens can be horrible places. I think everyone, a lot of people who listen to this who work in kitchens know that like a lot of people are trying to change the culture, but it is not has not historically been.
+
+[30:56] Yeah. But I think the first step is, as I'm sure a lot of people know, is just being honest and open about what's going on, you know, and not sugarcoating it or not feeling any sort of shame in calling it out for what it is. Right. The journey, the interesting part for me of writing the book was as a co-writer is and wearing my hat as a critic and sort of like a judgmental person in general, is like I wanted Kwame to be apologetic and like cop to his hubris in opening the Shaw Bijou. And he never fully does because he doesn't see it that way.
+
+[31:31] And as a writer, as a co-writer, I eventually came around to seeing why he thought the way he did and why he wasn't really willing to issue a me a culpa and say, Oh, I shouldn't have done that, I should have been more humble, I should have followed the rules and all these things. Because when you look at the path of his life, you know, he's like a poor kid from the Bronx. He's a black, poor black kid from the Bronx. If he had followed the rules and done everything according to the system, the system is not designed to reward him. You know, the sis there's there's systemic and structural structural inequalities that if he didn't hustle, and if he didn't follow his own rules and go out and then break rules, he probably wouldn't get to the place where he is.
+
+[32:14] So it was like a learning experience for me to check my own gut instinct of what a failure, what the proper response to a failure should be. So how so when you're writing something like that, are you trying to write it in his voice, or are you writing so you so you have to get into his head, yeah? You have to understand his position. Yeah. Because if you don't, you can't write the book.
+
+[32:39] Right. So it was a process. Um, I think so I'm writing a I'm now co-writing a bunch of other cookbooks as well. Um at one point I was trying to just do his spoken voice, but that's not really it's a different voice, it's a different medium. So he uses a different voice for writing, and he needs to.
+
+[32:58] That written voice wasn't quite developed yet because he's not a writer, you know. Um, so I think I veered a little too informal, then I veered a little too formal, too writerly, and then we kind of reach this good ground, which it's it's kind of his voice, his soul, his spirit, but my words and like I'm not a chef, it's not my story, but I am a professional writer, and so I can try to shape and tease out aspects of the story and make it flow. I don't know if you know this. Most chefs don't actually want to be presented with what they sound like. Most everyone doesn't want to be presented with what they sound like.
+
+[33:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you're like it's not unique to chefs, though. Well, I mean, I only hang out with them. Yeah. And like bar people.
+
+[33:42] But you know what I mean? Like, anyway. Um, but like, are you interested in in becoming like long-term? Like, so there are some writers who become the voice of particular people. No.
+
+[33:59] Like, I'm doing a book now with Donna Leonard from Ilbuco. And I haven't been there in a while. It's great. You should go. I I remember when they first got hit.
+
+[34:08] What? You don't go places. I don't really go out. That's not a dad thing. I'm either working or I'm home.
+
+[34:12] But the same. The uh I remember what they remember, I don't know, no one remembers, but when the board of health first started nuking people on uh on having vacuum machines in restaurants, like a year after it, Ilbuco got nailed, very first people in the city to get nailed for doing their own charcuterie, yeah, doing their own salumi. And we were all like, oh man, now this. We're and I'm sure they were also. I tried to interview them about it because I was writing something for food arts, now defunct food arts back in the time, back when the great Michael Batterbury was still alive.
+
+[34:49] And uh yeah, we were all like, we were, you know, everyone had been waiting for that shoe to drop, and then the we're like, oh my god, is the pickle shoe gonna drop? Is the like so many shoes to drop in the city? But that raid and uh the the guy named the guy's name is Bernardo Flores, he's uh the head of the slumi program. He lost his entire program, it was just cleared out by the DOH. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[35:10] And that was actually the impetus for opening Alimentari, which has its own very by the book, very like code driven Salumi program. Was that raid? I mean, that was a huge blow, I think, for Donna. Yeah, well, for her and for a lot of other people that were looking to to them uh for you know what was gonna was gonna happen. I mean, it sucked.
+
+[35:32] Uh to be honest, it sucked real hard. But the I mean the what sprung from that is a line of kind of much more educated chefs of the next generation who started knowing that they were gonna get their behinds handed to them, and so they start with Hasset plans and they you know it's I guess it's good. I mean, there are some people who I know uh in the early days, you know, wanted to do a lot of kind of interesting, uh a lot of interesting Salumi projects that probably wouldn't get HACC approved, so like slightly less acidic, uh you know, slightly less of a pH drop off of their off of their sausages. Uh you know, but whatever. I mean, it's not the job of a DOH to allow you to do everything you want, it's the job of them to make you safe.
+
+[36:25] Right. I mean, it's balancing innovation and public health. Definitely. So I'm doing the Donna book, I'm doing uh Wilson Tang's book for Noah. Oh, nice, which is uh they work with the Museum of Food and Drink on who by the way, Nastasia is sponsoring this show.
+
+[36:38] You were in the bathroom when it happened, but how the heck is a museum of food and drink have money that sponsors? Does that mean I'm sponsoring my own show? They're asking me for money at the end of the year. They're like, did you you're on the board of directors? You gotta give you money so I can pay for what?
+
+[36:54] For my own show. It's like it's it's perpetual motion machine, people. It doesn't work. Anytime you try to present a perpetual motion machine, well, you got it's like a Ponzi scheme. It's like you're gonna put money in, you're gonna get more money back out.
+
+[36:59] No, it doesn't work that way. But the real winners are the listeners. Uh well, I don't know about that. But I was just gonna just to finish up that thought, those they have different wildly different voices, you know. So I'm more interested.
+
+[37:16] Like Donna has a different voice than Kwame. Kwame has a different voice than Wilson. Wilson has a different voice from Donna. And something that I like as a writer is to be able to find their voices and work with them to craft that. Um that to me right now seems more interesting than being long term with one, you know, with one chef.
+
+[37:34] Yeah. Uh I see you also wrote Food and Beer with uh Daniel Burns. And I can never pronounce his name from Evil Twin. Yepie. Yep.
+
+[37:44] Uh so that must have been fun. He's a cool guy, Daniel Burns, math and fi math and philosophy major. Like interesting. He's working on the. Did you cross paths with him?
+
+[37:52] Oh, yeah. I know at Momofuku. Uh yeah, he was at Mammafuku. He was in the research kitchen for a while there with uh Dan Felder, and uh, you know, he's been at all the right places. It's true, though.
+
+[38:04] You know what I mean? Like uh he did the Noma, he did the Mamafuku, Fat Duck. Yeah, the Fat Duck, he did the uh uh he did Noma, right? Yeah, all the all the fanciest places. Oh, not even just fanciest, like all of the O'Curron places.
+
+[38:19] Yeah, he's a super talented chef. Um how was that book to write? You know, again, the that was a book where I had no idea about beer going into it. I had written a review for The Observer about uh Tourist, and I think I wrote something for the Times too. Um Tourist is still open, right?
+
+[38:34] Tourists is still open, yeah. And now they're actually venturing back into the tasting menu land. Um but I just got to. For those of you that don't know, it was uh like a pairing men like the it was a pairing menu, but done only with beers, but incredibly well chosen beers, and you know, it was kind of a new concept. Yeah, it was a new concept.
+
+[38:56] If it opened today, it would be a new concept. Yeah, I was blown away. I mean, I was an M. I was blown away by it, and I'm still in awe of that that those those meals were some of the best meals I've had. I did I do feel like there's still a residual prejudice against high-end beer pairings, even though more and more people are doing it.
+
+[39:16] The idea of I don't the it just didn't cohere for them. It's also for that. We have eight million people here. The thing is if they opened it in a place that had more footy foot foot traffic, they could have because like if you can tap into the eight million people that are here, you can be at, you know, like we are niche. By the way, Nastasia is so bored by our conversation and not able to use her phone, she's hitting her forehead against her mic.
+
+[39:36] Is that true? What is going on? Hold on, let's just take a Nastasia check in. What is going on with you right now? It's no, it's it's all the time, it's not right now.
+
+[39:44] Really? No, she's look also, Joshua. I'm gonna pay for this later. Yeah, you are. Not me.
+
+[39:50] I'm gonna waltz out of here. It's gonna be a good one. Oh, he already ate. Oh, man, that's garbage. I thought I liked you.
+
+[39:56] All right. Why? What? The whole real is that you know you worked at this radio station before, is that we eat the pizza afterwards. That's the only thing we get.
+
+[40:03] That's where I pay money to the museum so that they can do it. You guys only get one pizza. They did it for my own show, and then we get a pizza. And that's what we get out of here. I'll eat pizza twice.
+
+[40:14] Uh so wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's just say that that was a master of all deflections from Nastasia from Anastasia check ins. Uh hello, and welcome to what Nastasia does. She's like She's like, she's like, if I get something shiny and wave it in Dave's face, he'll start ranting about that and forget that I just shafted him. Outrage machine.
+
+[40:32] Outrage machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh so speaking of outrage, I was on the Amazon I don't own a copy of that book, uh, the the uh um beer and food, and uh I went to the Amazon and I'm reminded at how much I hate most Amazon reviewers. So some a-hole, this is like you're not allowed to, you're not allowed to search out people's usernames, find their homes, and cut their cut cut them into tiny pieces. But some reviewer wrote some reviewer bought this book thinking it was going to be about how they could at home pair like Budweiser with like what kind of buffalo wing sauce.
+
+[41:13] Yes, yeah. It was like, no, not what I way off base. I'm like, I'm like, literally, that was all this idiot wrote, way off base. All the other ones were like talking about the book, about like the program, about this. I I got to eat there.
+
+[41:27] This book encapsulates my meal, amazing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This one guy, way off base. Off base. I was like, first of all, so intellectually lazy. Yeah, I mean, but I have a lot of books on Amazon, and some of the the some of the like the four stars are just like a little bit disappointing.
+
+[41:46] You're like, can I have some more? Like, what the f what the fuck? Ding ding. What do you mean? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[41:53] Well, I hate it too. It's like, it's like I used to get that. So the thing is like the longer the corresponds to his own. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no.
+
+[42:01] I get other people to do it. The uh the uh the thing is this. I don't, but it uh for those of you out there reviewing things, if we read what you're writing, try to be a human because it hurts us. It does hurt. It does hurt.
+
+[42:15] And also, if you're writing something niche, right? Like, so in five reviews, it only takes one a-hole to like totally bump you down. Yeah. Like two, three stars. Because I had one guy.
+
+[42:30] Book book arrived damage from Amazon. And then you flag it, not helpful. Not helpful. And if and I actually now do go, they it they no longer have something not helpful. They just have a report.
+
+[42:44] But I now make it a habit, like I did now, of going through and being like, this review is not helpful. This is a good idea. You should review reviews. He does. Occasionally.
+
+[42:53] I used to, when we do would do something, I would read it and I would go, I would go banana lama ding dongs on people. But the thing is that, you know, now that uh, you know, anyone, anyone in their, you know, can doesn't have to put on uh, you know, uh, you know, pants or whatever to you know write a review. Take a break. What? I'll take a break, we'll be right back with a little bit more.
+
+[43:15] Cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink. Featuring a variety of interactive displays, Mofad encourages eaters of all ages to be curious about food. The museum currently operates MoFad Lab, a 5,000 square foot experimental space in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where Chow, making the Chinese American restaurant, is currently on show until the end of March 2019. This exhibition celebrates the birth and evolution of Chinese American restaurants, tracing their nearly 170 year history, and sparking conversations about food culture, immigration, and what it means to be American.
+
+[44:07] It highlights the evolution timeline of Chinese American restaurant menus, dating back to 1910, and also highlights a tasting section where participants get to enjoy tastings created by the country's most talented chefs who specialize in Chinese American cuisine. Make sure you check out Chow while you still can. The exhibition closes at the end of March 2019. Check out Mofad's tastings and extensive event calendar at Mofad.org/slash events. So that was my money to pay for that.
+
+[44:40] My money totally paid for that. Yeah. Not that much though. Anyway. Okay, so let me just hit a question, uh, a couple questions right off the bat.
+
+[44:49] Uh so the Pharos is a coffee grinder. Sam wants to know if I can modify the CAD drawing. Sam, I would love to. The problem is that the Pharos lives in Connecticut and my CAD program lives in New York, and I would need to. I literally took my old drawing and used a drill and a knife and made it my my old printout used a drill and knife and made it work, but I will try, it's gonna take me a while, but I will try to get an updated 3D drawing available for that.
+
+[45:15] Um's interested, uh Chris is interested in making a white vermouth like Dolan Blanc or similar, like to avoid oxidizing the wine too much in the process of adding the additional alcohol, sugar, herbs, and spices. Would it be reasonable to use ascorbic acid for this purpose and then seal it in topped-off bottles tightly? Uh, we guess the extra alcohol and sugar would balance the additional minor acidity of the scorbic acid. My goal is to avoid sherry or other oxidized off leverages. You know, I've never used ascorbic acid to stop oxidoxidation in wine.
+
+[45:42] I just use oxygen exclusion. So if you can uh, you know, just put them in a bottle, like put them even in a in a try to get the British uh soda bottles. They have a higher vapor barrier than American ones do. Uh I think if they're using the good ones, and then squeeze out all of the air and/or exclude air with solids until there's almost zero air, and you'll get very little oxidation. Um I'm assuming.
+
+[46:11] I'm assuming your herbs are already dried, so they're probably not gonna oxidize that much. Uh you could try adding a scorpic acid. I don't think it's gonna hurt you, but I don't know how much it's gonna help. Nastasi, wait, you weren't listening, you don't care. Um Brett, and and Joshua, you could talk to this too.
+
+[46:26] Can you talk about your method for knowledge acquisition when you have to learn about a new domain? You seem especially good at knowing where to go and how to uh uh appraise the relative quality of information you find. Maybe get an example of how you go about learning about something you don't currently know to give a sense of how you work through it. Well, uh Nastasia hates that I do this. It actually takes uh like a good chunk of my life.
+
+[46:50] First of all, what I am my hobby is to learn things. Like that's my hop. That's what I enjoy doing. So um I just go into deep holes, and nostasi gets real mad. She's like, oh my god.
+
+[47:06] And my wife also, my Jen's like, Dave, are you going into first of all? Because when I go into a hole on something, it usually involves buying something so that I can test out the thing. Tell about the Leatherman. They know about the Leatherman if they listen to the show. Anyway, so like it the issue is what I first do, I've stolen if it's a scientific thing, I've stolen access to um a I won't say which university, but to their online library system.
+
+[47:29] And I will go look at Trump universe. Yeah, Trump University. Real scholarly. I will look at you know as many articles as I can find. I'll just do a basic search.
+
+[47:43] And if once in a new subject on the scientific side, once you read 20 or 30 articles in something, you can kind of get a feeling for kind of where the scholarship is trending. And you can also get a feel if you look at the bibliographies kind of uh or they're not called bibliographies, but the sites, the references, you can kind of get an idea if three people are all or four or five people are all citing the same study, and then you can make a judgment as to whether or not that study is garbage. On the non-science side, usually I try to link in, I have a very keen BS detector, and so as I have a certain group of things where if I hear people start saying those things, I instantly discount a lot of what they say in general. So certain health claims, if people make certain health claims, instantly I'll I'll kind of throw away a lot of what they're saying, other than just opinion. I'll throw away a lot of the fact-based information that they have.
+
+[48:41] Or if they if someone's making serious scientific mistakes or mistakes of fact, because honestly, most of the stuff that I'm reading, that information doesn't need to be in there. So if someone's adding information that they don't need into their writing, and that information is incorrect, usually in my mind, that means I'm not trusting this person. They're not writing from something that they actually know deep. What they're doing is gathering information that they have only tangential uh kind of knowledge uh about and are injecting it into their writing to try to make it more real, right? Nastasia doesn't care, that's why she's on her phone yet.
+
+[49:19] I'm not on my phone. Okay, she's playing with her phone. Anyway, um so there's that, and then um often there are one or two people that you trust, you see what they think, and then you go read their stuff, and then you burrow down, and then you just boom, you go wide. Uh that's how, yeah, I feel like I'm trying to think back on what you know, it's interesting you say your hobby is to learn things, because I would say my hobby is to create things, and it's a little bit different. I wish I was more like you, but I feel like I I have this urge to create sometimes before I know enough to actually create the thing that I want.
+
+[49:55] But the way that I gather information, like right now I'm thinking about I've been on a Buddhist journey for some years now, but it's like I start reading one text and then I see all the text, mostly books, but all the texts they reference, or one teacher, and then who was their teacher, and then like what was that lineage and kind of trace it back that way, or if I'm reading about a literary scene, you know, I'm I I try to catch all the little references that whatever the author is making contemporaneously and then going wide in that way just to get an understanding of like what was in milieu that they found themselves in, and trying to get as many viewpoints into that room as possible. Yeah, and I'm sure then also like in Buddhism, I'm sure you also seek out people so that you can bounce what you found off of them, right? Or with with writers, you talk to other writers and you talk about it. I never talk to other writers because I'm filled with jealousy. Oh.
+
+[50:50] Well, so let's take that to food. Yeah. So in food, like let's say your domain is within food. Yeah. Right?
+
+[50:56] You have to go eat. Right? And so there are whole styles of, and it's I'm interested to hear what you say about writing on this, because there are whole styles of food in the United States where my main gripe is that the person is so like hamburgers and pizza specifically are two American, American style hamburgers and pizza. Well there is no other styled hamburger, but pizza. American I'm talking about American style pizza.
+
+[51:19] Yeah. Uh other people's hamburgers are garbage. Have you tried the canned hamburger by the way? You heard about this? The Germans make it.
+
+[51:25] You know what the Germans don't know how to make? Hamburgers. They don't know how to make them people are like, but they're from Hamburg. I'm like, I don't listen the hamburger is an American thing. Yeah.
+
+[51:34] And in Germany they they put meatloaf in a bun. Anyway, so they make like a can't Which could be a great meatloaf sandwich. Yeah. But it's not a hamburger. It's not a hamburger.
+
+[51:43] Anyway, but like a lot of people who like have their own hamburger thing or their own pizza thing, they don't eat other people's product. Right. So how are they going to get reference? Well I think that's hard, right? That's called like um like uh agon.
+
+[51:57] It's like uh you don't want to you have a uh you have an anxiety it's called the anxiety of influence right and I think Harold uh bloom was a literary critic who talked about it where you don't want to learn about what came before because you do have this anxiety that you don't want to repeat it. Now as a writer and I'm sure it's the same and I think this is what you're pushing up against. It takes a certain level of like maturity and security in yourself to be to be able to expose yourself to other you could look at them as competitors and I think that that's why where I fall short, and I think that's where a lot of other people fall short too. But so you try to isolate yourself. So what you're doing is so original because you feel insecure that if you go eat something else, you might be influenced by it unduly, or you won't um you'll fall short in some way.
+
+[52:47] Right. So like like in kind of in my niche, right? Yeah, you know, I have I think, by the way, I think not smartly put myself in this, like, in a creative mode where, you know, I'm trying to not do what everyone else has has been doing, right? So I got caught up in that kind of wave of innovation and technology, you know, in the early 2000s, and I'm still riding it, you know, in kind of food and cocktails. And I don't think it's healthy, honestly.
+
+[53:17] But having done it long enough, it is nice. It is nice to be in a position where I am never worried. In other words, like the like innovation is great, but also just having absorbing enough of other what other people are doing such that you don't feel like anyone's gonna come out of left field and throw you for a loop. Or if someone says to you something and you're like, man, I don't know. I don't know about that, you're not gonna feel embarrassed because you're like, I know I know enough about this that like I feel like rock solid, I feel like I can speak, you know what I mean, without having to worry about having to take it back.
+
+[53:56] Yeah. You know, it's a fine line there. I think like I just think like from a restaurant standpoint, for instance, the tendency from a journalistic lens is to make comparisons. Like there's awards, and then there's trend pieces, and there's all these things. And it's almost like I can tell from a restaurant restaurateurist perspective, there is an in-baked sense of competition.
+
+[54:21] And when you're really struggling, I think it's hard to um see other restaurateurs sometimes as your cohort and your colleagues. Well, i it's funny to the detriment, I think, of each individual restaurant. Like, so it's it's funny, right? Like in the bar business and you know, back, you know, before the sh chefs, most of the time, if someone becomes very successful, other people will carp on them. That's just the way it is.
+
+[54:47] But on the other hand, they're gonna support them in public because you you have you have to support them. You genuinely want other people to do well, but there's always a sense there's there, yeah, there's always a sense of competition, but I think it can be healthy as long as it's not as long as it's not kind of pernicious, as long as it doesn't stop you from being friends. Because I think they, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these people actually like they are friends. You know what I mean? But that doesn't mean that you can't be like, I still do a better job than doing that.
+
+[55:14] Yeah, well, it's like what you do with that competition. It can spur you to do better. Yeah. Um, all right, Nastasia, because Nastasia has uh a lot in her mind going on, uh, not having to do with anything any of you care about. But I I have a little time left.
+
+[55:26] I want to talk about this. Food mills. Do you like them or dislike them, Joshua? Uh food mills? Food mills.
+
+[55:34] I like them. Okay, I hate them. Because they they always jam up and they don't clean out right. Right. First of all, let me just say this.
+
+[55:42] I don't like cleaning food mills. I don't like using them because they have to back up, you have to go backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards. I hate it. JJ Basil, friend of mine, chef, uh, he went to his mom's house. I don't know whether I told this story on air.
+
+[55:54] I went to his mom's house, was making, I think, mashed potatoes. She hands him a food mill, he opened up the door of her house and just threw it as hard as he could into the street and shut the door and was like, now you don't have to worry about that anymore, Ma. Yeah. I was like, you know what, JJ? A little aggressive, but I'm with you.
+
+[56:11] I will have to say, I recently uh moved and I don't have any kitchen equipment. Like I'm starting from scratch. And it's been amazing. How'd you move? What?
+
+[56:20] Why'd you move? I'm separated. Um it's been amazing. She knew that she was just making him say it on air because she's yeah. It is what it is.
+
+[56:28] Yeah. Um but it's been amazing how many recipes that I don't need to use any equipment. Like just whether, you know, I do a lot of baking and I don't need anything but my hands. And it's liberating because I used to be such a slave to, you know, if the recipe called for a food mill, if it called for a uh like uh whatever specialty equipment, I would go get it. Yeah, if the recipe calls for a food mill, get get get you a different recipe.
+
+[56:55] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but it it is true that you don't need any of that stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know if that's going against brand for you. No.
+
+[57:03] I mean, look, like like Nastasia, what kind of technology are we? Uh trailing edge. Yeah, we're the stuff that could fall off the plane and you'll still land safely. Yeah. Anyway, uh, but I hate food mills for a number of reasons.
+
+[57:13] But I'll wait, wait, which one do you hate more? Puppy mills or food mills? Uh I mean, I guess if I had to get rid of one, I'll get rid of puppy mills. Wait, you didn't go into the thing. Virginia.
+
+[57:25] What? Virginia. Oh, Virginia. Well, we're in political. I guess we could all right, we could talk about it a little bit because no one likes it.
+
+[57:32] But let me talk about this first and we'll end on that. Hold on. Tell me about puppy mills. I hate puppy mills. I hate puppy mills.
+
+[57:38] I also hate food mills. And you're like a dog or cat person. I'm not dogs. I have two dogs. So the um.
+
+[57:44] So anyway, I bought a potato ricer attachment because I'm testing it uh for testing purposes. And I have acquiring knowledge. That thing was sick. It was amazing. No one in the U.S.
+
+[57:57] has one of these. It's like it's like a a stick attachment, potato ricer. And I was like, this is garbage. I was like, oh my God. And if the listeners at home could see it.
+
+[58:07] I was like, well, I'm ricing something. It's not a potato. But like, like the uh like the but the thing is, like, I thought this was gonna be garbage, and I want to hear if any of you out there have used a potato ricer, not the hand one. I have hand ones, and they're a nightmare because you have to load them in. Here's the thing in a food mill, here's what a potato uh a potato ricer on the end of a stick can't do, right?
+
+[58:31] It can't do what a food mill can do, which is kind of trap seeds and skins. So something that all of us who live with high-powered blenders, we're like, I could take a tomato, I could blend it. You can't see the seeds anymore. You can't see the skin. So I no longer need to peel or seed my tomatoes.
+
+[58:46] And I'm bolstered by the fact that Heston Blumenthal proved that there's more umami in the jelly around a tomato seed than there is in the rest of the tomato. All true, but the seeds themselves have no flavor and the skins are intensely bitter. So you should peel those suckers and you should get rid of the seeds and just keep the jelly that's around the seeds, which is actually good for a strainer or in a pinch. Like who uses a Tammy anymore? Now that we all have Vitapeps, we've lost the benefits of Tammis and food mills.
+
+[59:11] But anyway, I want to know if anyone out there has used uh a potato ricer or can come up with a different use for a potato ricer, because I am interested in potato ricers now because I something I thought was gonna be garbage was in fact uh was in fact good. Go over the Virginia thing real quick. Go. Uh, so Nastash and I, because we are not apolitical when we are humans, uh we were talking about the Virginia, and if you sh happen to live in a hole under the ground, every apparently politician in Virginia has either been in blackface now with the last minute, has either been in blackface or for all of you living in Virginia, Virginia has become a real life would you rather. You know what I mean?
+
+[59:50] Like when you're like, Alexa, let's play Would You Rather. And it's always like, would you rather have like, you know, feet for hands or hands for feet? Like things that are horrible, and you have to choose between them. So now it's would you rather have uh uh you know someone running your state who dresses in blackface? Or would you rather have someone who's at least a sexual assaulter?
+
+[1:00:10] At least. Food mills are puppy mills, man. I'm also like blackface? Like if I had to choose, like if I had to choose between a rapist and a blackface person. You're asking the same thing.
+
+[1:00:23] I'm not a defender of Fairfax. I'm just saying that he's not being a he's being accused of sexual assault. Let me ask you this. Yeah. Known blackface or sexual assault, yes, possible rape, because that's what we're dealing with right now.
+
+[1:00:36] I think that's the choice. I think the voters of Virginia deserve better, and they don't deserve to make that choice whatsoever. There you go, because you shouldn't have to play Would You Rather with your real life. That's right. Same with puppy mills.
+
+[1:00:46] I don't have to have either. I can have no puppy mills and no food. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:01:16] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com, Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, and more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be part of the world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:01:40] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family and become a member. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Cafe Patoshoe, a student union for adults since 1989 in the heart of Indianapolis. I'm HRN's executive director, Katie Mosman Wadler, with a preview of this week's episode of Meet and Three, Heritage Radio Network's weekly food news roundup. This week we're celebrating black culture through the complicated lens of agriculture. We speak to Carla Hall about her uncompromising soul food recipes. And I was like, what am I doing?
+
+[0:28] Why am I changing my family's history for another culture? We also hear from Gabriela Rodriguez at Harlem Grohn's Youth Farm uptown. About empowerment and you know community resilience building through this work. Um food is kind of just a vehicle. Leah Pennerman addresses feeling like an outsider in the farming community.
+
+[0:49] I could count on my two hands the number of uh people who appear to be POC, people of color. And so I literally go around little slips of paper and and and say, hey, meet at one o'clock under this tree so we can talk. Tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network. That's Meet Plus Sign T-H-R-E-E, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:16] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from pretty dang close, actually. We were here, it took a while to start up, but we were kind of here, you know, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Joined as usual, not by the guests who are eating pizza, because yesterday, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, what happened? They had a staff party, and anytime anyone has a party in Brooklyn, they can't work the next day. Brooklyn, I love you, Brooklyn, right?
+
+[1:45] But you are the Portland of New York City. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You can only tolerate so much work at a time.
+
+[1:53] Only so much work at one time. You know who is working? We got Matt in the booth. How are you doing? I'm Oregon.
+
+[1:59] I wasn't allowed to come to the staff party. I'm not a real staff. Wait, for real? Oh, I don't know. I didn't ask.
+
+[2:05] Somebody who's using a circular saw, though. Uh, yeah, oh, yeah. Liam's here. He's fixing stuff. Fixing the crap that they broke yesterday?
+
+[2:13] Probably. Look, yes. I've said it on this uh on this air a million times, and I'll say it again. The people I have the most respect for in the world regarding this are nomad ENP. Because they will have a party that lasts until the sun comes up, where people in high heels are shredding their $8 billion banquettes and the entire place is coated in filth, and every single staff member has to be, you know, carted away.
+
+[2:41] And yet the next day they will be open for, you know, three Michelin star service without missing a beat. And you know what? That's that takes balls. Yeah. That's very impressive.
+
+[2:53] That's impressive. Yes. Right? That is something to be to be uh uh proud of. Not that you should overindulge, but it's still the fact that they are willing to have fun and then do their freaking job the next day.
+
+[3:07] Not love you rebirds. I'm not saying anything negative. Matt, am I saying negative? No, no, no. He means it with love.
+
+[3:13] All love. I'll love. I hope the pizza place next door is open. Nastasia is gonna call during the break and find out. If not, we're dropping.
+
+[3:21] If not, we're dropping the mic and getting out. Anyway. You get half a cooking issues. Half a cooking issues. They interestingly, the first half, instead of usually what you get the second half.
+
+[3:30] Now listen, I uh I I thought I wasn't gonna get into this, but I can't help myself. Everything I'm about to say, you should completely ignore because I have no uh what's the word? Expertise in in this at all. But last week, uh last week, Kraft Heinz. You familiar with Kraft Heinz?
+
+[3:44] Mm-hmm. You know, what happened was Warren Buffett, like, you know, they bought a bunch of that, they merged in I think uh, you know, I forget how long ago, but 2015, I think they merged the Kraft Corporation and the Heinz Corporation together. So, you know, a couple of years ago that was uh running, I think, you know, over $70 a share, and on Thursday or Friday it dropped by half. So it's now at like $34 a share because um they had some bad reports, and you know, they had to write down, I think $14 billion in what's called goodwill on their brands, Oscar Meyer and Kraft and all this. And so the stock went way the heck down.
+
+[4:24] And I'm saying, how the heck low can Kraft Heinz get? I have been researching, I don't know how to do it, how to buy, I want to buy uh options. I don't know how to do this because I'm not a not right now, but eventually in Kraft Heinz, because all these people who are my age, idiots my age, are saying that these brands that somehow Kraft Heinz is gonna keep going down and down and down, and again, ignore anything I'm saying, I have no financial knowledge at all. But I was like, how far low can you go? As soon as I heard this news, right?
+
+[4:55] First of all, Warren Buffett, who owns uh, you know, his Berkshire Hathaway owns a quarter of Kraft Heinz, roughly, is not uh is not getting rid of his shares. He's not buying any, but he's not getting rid of it. So I walk up to Dax, right? Because he was in the other room killing people on Fortnite, which is what he normally does, and I said, because he was off from school, I said, Hey Dax, I said, What's the only brand of ketchup? He goes, Heinz!
+
+[5:19] It's America's favorite ketchup, quoting Wesley Willis, right? And then I looked at their other brands. Nastassi, what do they got there? Capri Sun. I hate Capri Sun.
+
+[5:26] I want Capri Sun to go out of business. It's a free. I thought I like it. I'm sure you do. Kool-Aid.
+
+[5:31] Kool-Aid, by the way, Kool-Aid, interestingly, I just researched this recently. Do you know that uh drink the Kool-Aid, not actually originally from the Jonestown Massacre? And in fact, in Jonestown, they did have some Kool-Aid on site, but primarily they drank grape-flavored flavor aid. Flavor aid. So they cheap.
+
+[5:50] They couldn't even go for the real Kool-Aid. They use grape flavor aid, although some people have said that in photos of uh unopened packets, there was actually also Kool-Aid there as well. But they were drinking primarily flavor aid. And originally, drink the Kool-Aid comes from the electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, where these people, it was a book by who I was Tom Wolf. I don't remember.
+
+[6:11] Yeah. Who they were driving around in a bus and they would spike uh they would spike the Kool-Aid, and they say, Don't drink the Kool-Aid because it's you know full of acid. Anyways, uh, what else they got there? Orida? Orida.
+
+[6:22] I mean, come on. Name a tater tot brand, Matt. I I can't even name the one you just said. Is that really? Or right you can't Oh right, O'Right.
+
+[6:30] Oh, yeah, I I know about that. I mean, if you had to name a brand of processed potatoes. I don't think I could, though. What? How old are you?
+
+[6:39] Uh 32. See, this is the thing, right? So what they said, what the the idiots my age are saying is millennials like that the brand is not like long-term good because millennials aren't buying these things. They're moving away from processed foods into more towards more natural stuff. Maybe, but like, there's only so many of you out there, Matt.
+
+[6:58] Like, like I am raising two people in the generation under you, and you know what they want? Heinz. Heinz. Velvita. They own Velvita people.
+
+[7:07] Cool whip. Cool whip. Corn nuts. Corn nuts. Bagel bites.
+
+[7:12] Uh bagel bites. Bagel bites. I was on that train when I was younger. See what I'm saying? It's like, first of all, like these brands are driven by teenagers and below, right?
+
+[7:20] Because they're the ones that are dragging on you like freaking, you know, like like kettlebells at a gym, being like, buy the, buy the orita, buy the velvea. You know what I mean? Yeah, silly me. I thought the parents were in control, but you're telling me no. Yeah, they were planners freaking nuts, man.
+
+[7:36] Name another brand of peanut. I I can't. That's the only one. Airplane peanuts. Yeah, they also own Lunchables, which I hope burns in hell.
+
+[7:44] Lunchables is a crap product, should never have been invented, and is is hurting food. I I I I'm good for kids who need a lunch. It's not good for kids. Dude, don't make a lunch, just buy freaking sliced meat. I hate lunchables.
+
+[8:01] I hate lunchables. They own craft mac and cheese, obviously. Here's another one. They own Philadelphia brand cream cheese. I am pretty sure that the even the store brand cream cheese that I buy is actually Philadelphia brand cream cheese under under a different label.
+
+[8:17] Now, because I bought Trader Joe's cream cheese, and Booker was like, don't ever buy that again. And and he's not necessarily brand centric, but he's like, it does not taste as good as the Philadelphia brand. They own Grey Poupon, which I'm not a fan of because I don't like that kind of mustard very much, and plasmon cookies. I don't know what those are. Those are the little baby munching cookies.
+
+[8:37] They're like the little like, you know what I'm talking? Plasmon. Anyway. Uh I feel that this brand's not gonna go anywhere. So I'm gonna wait for it to start creeping up a little bit, and then I'm gonna figure out how to buy you can figure out how to do anything.
+
+[8:52] Except for I don't care enough about finance to actually like do it. So have somebody else do it. If this was cooking, I would I would be, you know, but you gotta wait for it to start creeping up a little bit because it could stay in the tubes for a while. They have like a loser right now. 30, it's between 34 and 3475 right now.
+
+[9:09] And the the SEC is the SEC is investigating them right now because they had some accounting um like weirdness with Dave. We should maybe that's the thing that gets us to happy. We should stop talking about this on the air. Oh but anyway, my point is that you know, I feel that the the things that are being railed against them by the likes of Kramer on C uh, you know, whatever his first name is that you know, who's like my age, basically, whatever, crap on him. Heinz is America's favorite freaking ketchup.
+
+[9:38] That's all I'm saying. So any stockbrokers who are listening should call in and they can sell Dave the stock. I don't want the stock. I want to leverage, I want to leverage myself. Here's what I'm gonna do, but I have to wait for it to start going back up, and then I buy, I buy like three months in the future.
+
+[9:55] I I buy the right to sell time traveling stock stockbrokers call in now. No, no, it's not not, it's you know, I just whatever. Also, some of their brands are weak. I mean, but come on, people, please. And I'll be wondering.
+
+[10:09] If it's cra they own cracker barrel, do they own the cracker barrel? Is that related? I don't know. I don't know if they own cracker barrel. They own I mean like I'm not a huge own cracker barrel, but does that mean they own cracker barrel restaurants too?
+
+[10:18] I I eat they own cracker barrel cheese, which actually is not for a mass market cheddar, it's sometimes the best cheddar you can get in a supermarket. If in the supermarket, in many supermarkets, it's the best cheddar you can get. The very, very aged. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The black labeled one.
+
+[10:34] Yeah, yeah. They own Oscar Meyer. People aren't like, I wish I was a Kirkland wean, or they were like arguing that like they were arguing that that like Kirkland which is the Costco like home brand already has more sales than Kraft Heinz which is true but also Kirkland makes feminine napkins which Kraft Heinz does not as far as I know in other words they're a more diversified brand they make everything for Costco you know what I mean is that what they're what are they called is that what they're called what are they called in the 70s guess when I was born ding ding all right let me do some questions and then we'll get back oh by the way well I'll talk about France the reason we didn't have a show last week was I was I was in France which was nice but we can talk about it later I should answer some questions uh hello Dave Anastasia this is from Alex in New York have two questions I bought a quarter liter easy whipper now listen quarter liter people normally all the recipes I have are for half liter I also use uh full liter we're talking about is the whipped cream makers here which we you know you use for not just for whipped cream but for rapid infusion or if you're a believer in that kind of late 90s early 2000 things espumas what a gross word right so gross a spuma hello for those of you that don't have Spanish as your native language just use foam just use foam I think thankfully that's over right when was the last time you saw someone did you see uh Jose Andreas on the Oscars no I didn't watch the Oscars because I don't care did you watch it what do you why was he on the Oscars? I don't know was he in a movie no I don't know why he was I heard that uh I heard that Bradley Cooper uh did a good singing job with the lady gaga did really yeah it was good I heard he sang all of his stuff in his in a in the movie. Yeah.
+
+[12:17] Yeah. I know you're a huge fan of the Lady Gaga. I like, yeah, they're both great. But people were so upset that they got all almost kissy. Who cares?
+
+[12:26] And his wife girlfriend was in the audience. Wow, that doesn't matter to me at all. I mean, seriously, I'm trying to imagine something that matters less to me. Like the the relationship status of Bradley Cooper and his supermodel wife slash girlfriend or whatever she is in relation to him performing on stage with Lady Gaga is I'm trying to imagine something less interesting to me. Megan Markle.
+
+[12:50] That's less interesting to me. Megan. Megan, whatever. That is less interesting. And her with her relationship or not with uh or no, what's the other one?
+
+[12:59] Kate what uh Middleton. Kate Middleton, yeah. Whether or not they are having some sort of like tiffing. Sounds like you're very up on it though. Well, I shop at Dwayne Reed, I shop at Right Age, I see the magazines, and like, and I at least know who these people are.
+
+[13:16] Like half the people I see on these magazines, I'm like, who's Chad? What is this? You know what I mean? And like, I have no idea what's going on. You know.
+
+[13:24] Chad. Well, it's like random, you know, spiky haired dude's name, you know. Anyway, uh, point being at least I know who they are, so I can like remember that there's a story about them. Anyways. I bought a point two five liter EC Whipper for quick infusions, and would like to get your take on how to emulate the recipes in liquid intelligence.
+
+[13:46] I've been using the recipes with the same ratios in time, but only one nitrous charger rather than two. Does that sound right to you? The infusions seem to be turning out fine, but I don't have the ability to compare it to the original recipe. This is a problem. I also I don't have a quarterliter whipper, so I I can't compare it.
+
+[14:04] Um here's what I'm gonna say. The the folks at uh the EC Corporation, right, wrote they create the fill lines in their whippers to get relatively similar pressures with one charger in whipped cream, which is what they think that that you're gonna use it for. Now, in the book, I only have the the pressures for um one liter and half liter with one and two chargers in them, not for uh quarter liter. But I'm gonna assume that uh they get similar pressures in quarter liter that they that they do in a half liter. I'm sure they designed it that way, which means that I think to get the same pressure, I would overfill the quarter liter whipper slightly uh or a little bit, but I don't know, I'd I'd have to test it.
+
+[14:53] And what you've hit on is actually one of the main issues I think with all of life in terms of cooking, is you can't really emulate something you've never tasted before, right? Which is Jeffrey Steingarden. That was his, you know, big that was his big thing, right? You know, or is his big thing was, you know, these people they're writing about cooking, they're writing about uh, you know, eating or writing about restaurants, and they haven't eaten hardly anything in their lives. They haven't gone and traveled and eaten a bunch of things, and so uh, you know, come on by and have some.
+
+[15:26] Although we no longer use wrap, we no longer use the EC uh containers for rapid infusion, we now use kegs. And the reason we use kegs is we have access to nitrous oxide like large tanks. But the nice thing about kegs is is we are putting a known pressure in instead of a known weight. And so we can now have our recipe scale to any amount that we put into the keg. It doesn't matter whether we put one liter in a keg, two liters, two gallons, because we're just using the same pressure all the time, which is, I have to tell you, extremely liberating.
+
+[15:57] Um if EC ever calls me again to do something, however, I will ask them for their pressure chart as done in a quarter liter whipper, and then I can do the math for you and figure it out. Two, I've been successfully making clear ice at home, but have a small freezer and thus a small insulated container. You know, so clear ice people, by the way, you know, you gotta freeze it in one direction. So you have an insulated container, you fill it with warm water, you can dope it with some regular ice that'll melt out, just don't churn it. You don't want to get any gas into it.
+
+[16:27] Uh, and then once it's you know at room temperature below, you put it in the freezer, and what'll happen is it'll freeze from the top down because the sides are insulated. And as long as ice freezes in one direction only and freezes relatively slowly, it will freeze relatively clearly if there's no gas in it. That's why you want to start with hot, hot or warm water. Um, and then you know, you could throw some ice in to melt it, but you don't want to use water straight out of the tap. God forbid, cold water right out of the tap, it has a lot of gas in it.
+
+[16:53] You can get bubbles. So you freeze it down and you get that, then you don't let it freeze all the way to the bottom, you crack it out and you have clear ice. Um, my solution has been to make ice in several batches uh within a week or so before hosting people. I store the ice in ziploc gallon bags. They get a little freezer burned, but I usually just slice the crusty ice off and it's fine.
+
+[17:13] Would you do uh things any differently? Any tips for storing clear ice would be much appreciated. So if you store stuff in a freezer and air can get to it at all, what happens is ice crystals will sublimate off and you'll get like a little weirdness at the top. Also, um, if there's any melt on it, right, uh when you open and shut the free freezer when it goes through its defrost cycles, you'll get recrystallization at the top, and you'll get kind of nastiness. You shouldn't pick up any flavors if they're in a Ziploc bag.
+
+[17:40] But here's what I would do with ice. As soon as you pull the ice out, do not put it in any ziploc. Like get it in the shape you want it, put it back in the freezer and get it cold, right? Uh because of what I'm about to tell you. Then once they are cold, i.e.
+
+[17:56] they have no surface water on them, you can stack cubes or blocks together, right? So the professionals, when they ship them, ship them with little pieces of uh what's that stuff called, Nastasi. No, that little white foam that they ship between the ice. No. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know.
+
+[18:11] Anyway, it's like little thin sheets of white foam, tiny thin sheets that they put in between so that the ice breaks apart nicely. But if it's very dry and you're not gonna ship it, you're gonna keep it in the freezer. You don't need this. Pack it in ziplocks, and here's the trick: get rid of all the air. Now, as long as they are not, you know, shiny and slick when you pack them together, but like very dry and very cold, uh, when you pull them out and temper them up, they should come apart fairly easily.
+
+[18:36] The very least you'll have the very most you'll have to do, rather, is put like a thin-bladed knife and give a tap, and the block should break right apart, and that's how you store it. And you really shouldn't be worried about any surface stuff because after it melts down a little bit, and after it's tempered, by the way, so you're tempering it typically before you're putting it in cocktails anyway, just a quick rinse underwater will kind of get any of that stuff off. The Japanese, as I've said on this, uh also on this show before, when I visit when Nastasi and I visited Japan, which by the way, we need someone to invite us back. My book got translated into Japanese. We need to get invited back.
+
+[19:08] I know Jack at the bar wants to get invited because he's working with some Japanese shochu, but we should get invited because it did the book. We shouldn't your publisher set something up. Here's something I don't know if you know. Publisher knows they don't care. Even when they publish it in Japanese.
+
+[19:21] They they don't care. No, nobody cares. No one has the money, nobody cares. I'd love to go to Japan. Anyway, uh, so uh Nastasi and I noticed when we were out at bars there that uh they rinse the ice off because they they think it's filthy.
+
+[19:29] Um anyway. Remember that cool bar we went to? Which one? The one upstairs where you ring the bell. Oh, well, Nastassi, in other words, Nasty when Nastasia says cool, she doesn't mean that anything was particularly good about the food.
+
+[19:48] She's like, it's just cool because it was like in somebody's house. It was like We were the only white people. Uh yes. Well, we're the only non-Japanese people there. So like we walk in, and it's like wild west when the when the outsider steps into the saloon.
+
+[20:05] Plus, you and I were just walking, and Mark was really upset because you and I were like, well, let's just see what we can find. Did he end up going with us? Yeah. So the three of us three of us walk into this place, which is clearly like a place for regulars. Yes.
+
+[20:19] And conversation stopped dead. And we and like we just looked at 'em, and I think we just kind of shrugged, and they pointed, and we walked upstairs, and we had like we were in I think it was this person's house. We were, I think we walked into someone's house who was having a dinner party, and they they took us upstairs and sat us in like this like inside-outside kind of upstairs porch. Yeah. And they gave us a bell.
+
+[20:46] Yeah, they gave us a bell, and then we would ring it and they would just bring us stuff to drink. That is Nastasia's dream kind of experience because it doesn't involve any communication. You're a little bit kind of off your center. You know what I mean? We could never find it.
+
+[21:01] I don't even know where that was. It was in Tokyo somewhere. It was near where it was near the um raw chicken place. Yeah, it was near the raw chicken place. Uh anyway, so uh that's that question.
+
+[21:12] Let me see. It's okay. Oh, Sam, who uh was asking about the Faros, which is the coffee grinder, uh, and asked me if I could modify the CAD drawings, smartly realized I was probably never gonna get around to it, and said, I used your old CAD drawings and modified the pieces with a drill works great. Thanks, Sam. I will say this, I uh Sam, there's also in that sorry, this is deep for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, which is a hundred percent of you except for Sam.
+
+[21:36] There uh I also I think was able to take out some of the cross brace pieces so that the beans could flow easier uh and so you can adjust things better. Anyway, Sam will know what that means, no one else will. Um whatever. Um this is in from Colin Gonzalez from Los Angeles, who said, please try and be on time so we can enjoy more full-length episodes. This doesn't happen as much in the old episodes.
+
+[21:59] Well, listen, Colin, I was always late, just not nearly as late as I have been. So I'm now on my original like four to five minute late kind of kind of a situation. Nastasia. I don't know if you know this people. Nastasia always has something to say.
+
+[22:14] Negative. You know what I mean? That's not true. Who do you have to do? I want you to be on time.
+
+[22:20] Mm-hmm. I want you to be. Oh. Oh. Yeah, I see.
+
+[22:25] Yes. Uh I was cooking with a friend recently who has spent some time staging uh stodging nice restaurants in New York for fun. We were uh cooking up a steak and he was leading the charge since he's the guy with professional experience now. We got a pan, a 10-inch cast iron pan, over a campfire. Okay, so here's the important thing.
+
+[22:42] We're outside. Uh assuming you don't have a campfire inside, although I've always kind of wanted you familiar going back to Japan, you're familiar with like the Aurori? So it's like the old Japanese farmhouse style of uh cooking where instead of just having like a like a fireplace, like you traditionally think of like a European kind of fireplace, you have a central hearth where it's like built around and you build the fire like in this central kind of hearth and you kind of cook around it, which always thought would be amazing, wouldn't it? Like kind of a central chimney, a central hearth you cook around. Um so then you could have of course they have their fancy bing chaton, right?
+
+[23:18] Uh but they, you know, they're building the fire there. So they as I guess could have a campfire inside, but if it's called a campfire, it's outside, right? Campfire, not fire. Okay. Uh ripping hot before uh so that you got the 10-inch cast iron pan over the campfire, ripping hot.
+
+[23:32] Before he dropped in a stick of butter with some rosemary. Now you lost Nastasia right away. Nastasia used to work for Cesare Casella, and so uh for those of you that don't know Cesare Casella, uh, you know, great restaurant restaurateur and now ham uh cure purveyor. Doesn't go anywhere without a giant, like not like a piece of rosemary, describe the rosemary. Like a bunch, like a bouquet in your pocket.
+
+[23:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like more rosemary than the average household needs for a year in his pocket at any one time. Anyway, so Nastasia there that smell reminds me of him. I saw him on Sunday. I like him.
+
+[24:09] You like him, but you hate rosemary now. Yeah, you love because it's like eating the person. Wow. Okay. Uh so you dropped in a stick of butter with some rosemary, but rosemary does taste good on steak.
+
+[24:21] Anyway, uh melted it down and then added the steak to sear. This was interesting to me because when I make steaks, I generally put down enough neutral oil to cover the bottom of the pan or simply coat the steak in the oil. I'll drop in a knob of butter for basting at the end. Knob. Nastasia had a knob face on.
+
+[24:38] Do you like that word for the for what that is? Uh I like calling people a knob. You know what I mean? In what kind of situation? It's a person of knob.
+
+[24:44] It's usually a dude, right? And usually it's prefaced with Fing. You know what I mean? It just like it's just like, I guess it's kind of like an 80s, 90s thing, right? But it's where they mess up something?
+
+[25:03] Uh no. Definitely doing something dumb. Yeah, it's it's a synonym, it's a synonym for like kind of like like dick. He's a dick. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:14] But it it implies dumber. Like someone who's a dick isn't necessarily stupid. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[25:22] Like a knob is kind of like he's a dick, but also kind of dumb in my mind. What do you think, Matt? I mean, that sounds pretty right on to me, although I don't use the word often. Yeah. Well, you should.
+
+[25:34] I should, I'm gonna bring it back into my lexicon. No offense to the knob Creek Corporation. Totally different. Uh, but I definitely don't think of doorknob. No.
+
+[25:44] Knob of butter is a thing though. Oh, okay. But you would say, what would you say? You'd say like Pat. You know why?
+
+[25:50] Because you're used to getting your butter as most of us are in stick format. Knob people are used to kind of blocks of butter that you would take like like a chunk off of. I would say chunk, but like I have certain things that I always say, like I I use chunk too often, and I use bucket to mean anything that holds anything. Bucket. And uh my kids, my kids are like, Why do you call everything buckets, Dad?
+
+[26:16] I was like, uh, you know what I'm talking about, so just do it! You know what I mean? That's the thing. Like, if if someone knows what you're talking about, just do it. Just do it.
+
+[26:24] Anyway. Uh okay, so a whole stook of butter seam racks. Uh, okay. Uh, whole stick of butter seemed like an excess pool of fat. So much so that I was curious about whether it is even a sear.
+
+[26:35] Now, listen, I'm gonna finish, I'm gonna finish your question, but I will say this. You can sear in a deep fry. In fact, like deep frying is some of the best crust per unit time. So I like to think of things in crust per unit time, right? And deep frying in not new oil, not new oil, like slightly old oil.
+
+[26:59] And the reason is is that when you're when you're frying with very, very new oil, the oil uh is so hydrophobic that it can't actually make good contact with the outside of your of your product of your batter if it's batter or or or your steak if it's steak. And so you actually want the oil to break down a little bit so that it's so that it has some kind of free fatty acid, some polar component, because it allows it to wallop your food even faster at those at those high temperatures. Um so like deep frying makes a very good, very fast uh sear. Now, the problem with deep frying is deep frying hits your meat from all directions, and so um it can tend to overcook faster because it's driving temperature in from every direction, whereas a normal searing situation, the top side of your of your product is cooling off and the bottom side is heating up, and you kind of can alternate. Anyway, uh so I was curious about whether that was even a sear.
+
+[28:00] I also didn't like the result as much. The crust was weak. Whenever we ever hear someone say what? Head elf. Yeah, we were thinking it we're like, the tenor section was weak.
+
+[28:11] Also, the other one is uh it was is the uh Glengarry Glenn Ross. Right. The crust is weak. You are weak. Saw Alec Baldwin on the airplane back.
+
+[28:21] Oh yeah, and you didn't have the balls to talk to him. Yo, listen, uh, we connected from Paris to Detroit, Detroit back to LaGuardia. It's it's yeah, it's snowing like a weasel. Why did you do that? Uh it wasn't paying for the tickets.
+
+[28:35] So, uh, and I was flying first class? I was I got free first class tickets to Paris. Well, I would have said no. No. Anyway, so like I'm on like uh I'm on the thing, and uh, you know, Alec Baldwin gets on the plane.
+
+[28:51] Uh I wasn't I wasn't on the on the on the window. Dax had the window. So anyway, oh I mean when I was flying over Paris, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so yeah, he got on the plane. And Alec Baldwin is Nastasia's not so secret crush.
+
+[29:05] No. I don't have a physical crush on him. I just like I Oh your mom wants you to marry him. No. No, I he's not a crush.
+
+[29:13] I just like him as a person. Okay. I like how angry he gets. He sounded exactly like himself on the airplane. And he talks in like a whisperer.
+
+[29:21] No, he he was he was he was he had he had seltzer water though instead of wine. I don't think he drinks. Maybe that's why. Yeah. He's uh whoever he was with had some had some white wine, and so I did as well.
+
+[29:32] Uh but Nastasi's like, go talk to him. Like, if there's the last thing that Alec Baldwin wants to do. Here's the thing, right? He's looking to punch someone. Yeah.
+
+[29:39] Well, that's what Nastasi wants when you get punched in the face. Like, no one wants to if you're at work, right? Like when I'm at the bar. He wasn't at work. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[29:47] If you're at work and someone approaches you, that's part of the thing. You know what I mean? It's like if he's on set and you approach him, I'm sure he would be okay about it, maybe. I don't mean I don't know the guy. But like I'm not going to approach someone on an airplane when they're three and a half hours late to get home anyway.
+
+[30:02] Anyway, uh, the crust was weak. Is this a predictable result? If so, is it because of the water content of the butter? It seems to me that all of that water as the enemy of a good sear would have a negative effect on the result. Perhaps a smaller amount of butter would work, but then you have to deal with the lower smoke point of the curd.
+
+[30:20] Keep up the good work, Colin Gonzalez. Okay, so here's what I'm gonna say about this. Um I think it it takes a certain amount of energy, first of all, to evaporate the water. Typically, one of the problems with cooking with large amounts of butter is that the um the butter itself, the solids, the milk solids, start to scorch and burn before all of the water has boiled off, and you have to take the water that you have in the butter and boil it off before the temperature of the whole mass of the butter rises back up. Now, that takes energy away from your cast iron pan, so you're dropping the temperature of your pan a lot more than you would be if you just added oil.
+
+[31:02] Now, if you took your butter ahead of time, melted it down, and boiled off the water, kept the solids in, because let's be honest, you're searing a steak. Do you really care if the butter solids burn a little bit, right? I mean, I stick my steak directly over flame, and almost everybody likes a little bit of Bernie char on the outside of a steak, right? Almost everybody, not everybody, but almost everybody. So I think what's happening here is that you might have gotten the cast iron pan ripping, but you dropped the temperature significantly, probably didn't wait for all of the water to evaporate, and then it took a long time for the um stuff to get back up to temperature.
+
+[31:41] Now, if you just took the butter and you heated it, got rid of the water, and then brought the butter slowly up to its smoke point and dropped the steak in, you'd be good to go, right? But in general, the ripping cast iron pan, what you're trying to do is take advantage of the stored energy inside of the cast iron pan. And to do that, you really want just enough really hot oil, right? So, like a lot of times, what I'll do is I'll keep oil hot in a pan. Then I'll rip my cast iron, pour the hot oil in, put the steak in.
+
+[32:13] The one thing you need is you need enough oil or whatever in the bottom of your pan such that every piece of the meat, right, touches the pan. So, like what you don't want to see is, especially if you've done sous vide or pre, you know, pre um cooked the meat somehow, you don't want to see those sallow blonde concave areas where the meat doesn't touch the pan. And that's really what the oil is for is to make good contact. Uh, unless you want a deep fry. But if you want a deep fry, you have to let the entire batch of oil get back up to the smoke point of the oil, which is beyond the burning point of the solids.
+
+[32:51] But again, you might not care because you're not gonna reuse this stuff. And let's say the whole pan catches on fire. Well, you're outside. You know what I mean? Jen, my wife, is is is extremely afraid of oil fires.
+
+[33:04] Maybe because I have caught on fire so many times in my life and have caused fires. You know about the famous birthday fire where I got a hibachi so hot in the house that the hibachi's paint caught on fire. And and yeah, it was bad. I mean, it wasn't. The steak was delicious.
+
+[33:21] Worth it. Uh, do never let my wife hear anyone say that that was worth it because she was like, I asked you to do one thing, and that was not fill the house with smoke, and it was my birthday. No. And of course, I was like, I'm gonna optimize the steak, not my relationship. Oh my god.
+
+[33:40] And so, you know, which was a mistake. I mean, the steak hadn't vowed to stay with you forever, the wife had. That is so true. Oh man. This episode is brought to you by Cafe Patachou.
+
+[33:58] Long described as a student union for adults. Cafe Patachu is an award-winning cafe serving world-class breakfast and lunch in the heart of Indianapolis. Created by Martha Hoover, Cafe Patachu began as a mission to open a restaurant that used the best local ingredients prepared expertly. What Martha would cook for her own family was exactly what she wanted for her restaurant guests. Cafe Patachu has since grown into a restaurant group and the Patachou Foundation.
+
+[34:26] And while Martha is no longer in the kitchen whisking three eggs per omelet anymore, she is still spreading her passion for premium local ingredients. Now in several concepts and locations. Learn more at Patach Inc.com. That's P-A-T-A-C-H-O-U.com. Are you enjoying this podcast?
+
+[34:47] Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Lisa Held, and I'm the host of The Farm Report here on HRN. The Farm Report is a show about the people, processes, and policies that shape how food is produced today. Expect from the field insights as guests explore how producing fresh, delicious food relates to environmental and community sustainability, justice, and better health. You can find the Farm Report wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritageradio network.org.
+
+[35:18] Oh, caller. Call, you're on the air. Hey, this is uh Quinn from Canada again. How you doing, Quinn? What's up?
+
+[35:26] I'm good. I'm good. I had a question about um mixing fat to achieve a certain texture. Okay. So I know there are the mono and dirion that can fat, but I'm hoping to avoid those if possible, because I'm trying to make the recipe very accessible.
+
+[35:54] So I'm wondering if I mix something like olive oil shortening and cocoa bar, does the melting point kind of average out? Or does it sort of still start to melt at that lower temperature? Uh it's an interesting question. I've never I've never tested that. Usually, so any shortening has uh it has a range of of melting.
+
+[36:25] It's a melting kind of profile. Um, you know, different different parts of it will melt it. It doesn't have a single solid melt, which is why, for instance, if you take something like lard, you can and you low temp in lard, you'll notice that certain of the of the fats will recrystallize even like over time, even while you know the m the regular mass of it stays liquid. So it is something that's done on an industrial scale to get a particular texture at a particular temperature right um but like if you're trying to get a particular so if you're trying to get a particular texture I would just choose a fat that has that texture that you want if you have a fat that has a particular flavor let's say olive oil right then I think adding enough of something that is solid to make it more solid is going to kind of drastically affect the flavor of the of the oil you know I mean like you can even see like if you make a one to one if you make a one to one like olive oil butter which people do all the time right it will resolidify ish uh but it never has the kind of the nice well because butter's an emulsion so it's not a good it's not a good uh what's it called it's not a good uh example but it's not it's not kind of the same but you you see it works. I mean that depends on what kind of result you're trying to achieve I have used the mono and diglycerides before I don't particularly like it because you have to add a lot of it to get it to thicken.
+
+[38:04] There is something else and for some reason it escapes me someone on the chat room hopefully might know about it. There's another compound that's relatively available probably from Monist Pantry um that people use to um to thicken thicken oils up but in general like what what exactly are you trying to achieve? Well I'm basically trying to make manga a butterblock or a little bit of oil. Right. So when you're mimicking butter for pastry, you gotta remember butter does a bunch of things in pastry, right?
+
+[38:41] So some of the things that that you know you use butter for requires the fact that butter's an emulsion, and some of the things don't, right? So if you're using l uh a substitute, a fat substitute in pastry, you have to be sure that, like, for instance, in in puff paste or in, you know, in anything where the water content is important, you want to make sure that, you know, you kind of uh mimic that. I did something a little bit in reverse, similar with the spinzole, where I took a multi-component fat and fractioned it by melting point so that I could get a firmer, for instance, chicken fat, so that I could do a a chicken fat pie crust, and so that I could um do a non-hydrogenated lard pie crust, you know, with regular lard, which is kind of difficult because the lard if you render lard from the proper it's easy if you have the right kind of lard, but in general you the lard that you can buy or make, you're not using the right kind of fat, and so it has a kind of a lower melting point, and because it has a lower melting point, it's difficult to use in things like biscuits or in things like pie crusts, which is why people buy hydrogenated lard, but hydrogenated lard is by and large garbage. Uh and some people don't you like to use hydrogenated products in any way, so you can fraction it out. But as for making uh butter into something you can use in pastry, I have to find someone who I'm sure someone has thought about this.
+
+[40:15] Um I don't have any good ideas. I mean, you can use monomodiglycerides, but you're gonna have to use like percentages of it to get it thick, and it's still not going to be exactly like butter. You could also m you don't emulsify water into it. I mean, people do this sort of thing, but I don't think it's I've never seen something that I like as much as butter. But olive oil pastries are delicious.
+
+[40:39] You ever have that olive oil uh yeah, it was good. Yeah. Anyway. Hope this is helpful. Yeah.
+
+[40:45] Uh and I think um checked out right at the end there. Okay. Um, there's a couple, no input on that from the chat, but there's a question from the chat. Right, what do you got? Uh two.
+
+[40:55] A few episodes ago you were talking pizza, and Dave was talking about Neonato. Yeah, Neonata. I just made that. What day is it? I made that again on Sunday.
+
+[41:05] Okay, there we go. Um, can he direct me on where I can find it and what exactly it is. Where where does this person live? We'll see if he answers. You want to go to question number two?
+
+[41:18] I'll just do this. Neonata is it's these tiny fish. I believe it's Calabrian. It's these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fish in like a spicy Calabrian chili oil. And stuff is amazing.
+
+[41:33] I love it. And so we get it from a place called Calluccio Brothers. C O L C O L I'm sorry, C-O-L-U-C-C-I Glucci O. Coluccio. Uh, and it's neonata as in newly born N-Eo N-E-O-N-A-T-A, not as Dax calls it, neo-Nazis, which you do not want.
+
+[42:00] You'd not want neo-Nazis on your pizza. Uh so it's neonata, not neonatal, and obviously it stands for kind of newborn. Uh, and I did uh I made the pizza again and it was delicious. So the neonata pizza, for those of you that don't know, you make the dough, no sauce, just neonata. Uh, and then again, because I am not, you know, I don't need to bend to traditional Italian rules on anything.
+
+[42:24] Uh I put parmigiano cheese on it, and then a little bit of mozzarella, then you cook that sucker up, and then you put fried eggs on top. Damn is that good. And I had some country ham, so I was draping some country ham over it as well and eating the hell out of it, and it was good. Now, the reason that you don't typically find, and I think I said this on the air before, it this is my opinion, that you don't find uh cheese on fish-based things in many Italian recipes is simply because fish-based dishes were fast day dishes, either not just Lent, but many fast days, Fridays, uh Christmas Eve, whatever. So a lot a lot of fish recipes were designed to be eaten on days when you wouldn't have meat, dairy, or eggs uh in in Italians, but whatever.
+
+[43:12] Uh so what was the second question? Um first of all, these are from Kyle. He says damn, yeah, I'm stealing that. And he is from Connecticut now in Savannah, Georgia. And he was asking you to explain why bromated flour is so bad and why we're one of the few countries that haven't outlawed it.
+
+[43:29] Uh, I'm not up on why it's bad for you. I mean, it's used to bleach the stuff out, right? And that's what it's for. I don't know. I I'll research it.
+
+[43:38] Like uh send it into send it into Nastasia and I'll research. All I have to say though, that just because the European Union says something is bad, I'm looking at you, GMOs, doesn't necessarily mean that it is. And just because we say something is good doesn't mean that it is, right? So in general, I find that any regulatory body made up of political people and not science, like, okay, it's not that scientists should run the world. That's not what I'm saying.
+
+[43:59] I'm not saying scientists should run the world. But I'm saying that if you look at politicians, they generally bend to the to the will, whatever will is the strongest in, you know, in the ballot box or in the political makeup, not necessarily in who has the strongest logical arguments, right? I mean, I think you can see that. Um, so I in general, whether something is a law or not, I don't necessarily take to mean that you know it's based in reason. For instance, in New Zealand, and I've said this a million times, in New Zealand and Australia, you can use uh usual to anesthetize fish.
+
+[44:43] You're not allowed to do it here because the regulations don't allow you to, and yet uh you're allowed to use it in cooking. Makes no damn sense, right? So does that mean that usuals unsafe to use an anesthetic? Of course not. So I don't know.
+
+[44:55] But I'll research the the brominative stuff if someone reminds me. Someone has to remind me though. But back to the pizza thing. Uh I think people, uh a lot of people had recommendations on pizza steels, which I, you know, have had and have used. But uh the problem with all of these things is that my oven, I I I unhot rotted my ovens.
+
+[45:14] Those of you who listen to this show knows. My oven used to get up to, you know, 900 and something degrees. I unhot rotted it so that it is now kind of it's it's a commercial oven, but it it operates in normal person range. And uh it's hard to mod, it's it's hard to make it do even what kind of a home oven can do because the way that the commercial gas ovens operate, which is too boring and complicated to get into now, about like the the holding level of the flame, etc. etc.
+
+[45:41] etc. Uh, and so the the downside of it is is you can make one pizza well with a steel or with stones, but it's hard if you're serving a lot of people to pump out pizza pizza pizza pizza pizza. Like I used to be able to, not little Caesar's brand pizza, but pizza pizza pizza. Not he just does two, we do at least four, right? Uh and so uh here's my workaround that I do.
+
+[46:02] I have a uh crepe maker, a gas-fired crepe maker, which by the way, if you can get an actual French crampas gas-fired crepe maker, they are ridiculously awesome. It is one of the best pieces of kitchen equipment that I've ever bought. It's like griddle, it's such a hardcore griddle, and unlike most griddles, like restaurant griddles, they're smaller than a restaurant griddle, but so that they're big enough to cook almost anything that a regular home person wants to cook, but they're relatively compact. You can make them fire off of propane because they're meant to be cooked outside. They're they're awesome.
+
+[46:38] I love it. The only downside they have is that uh unlike an actual griddle where you can scrape the fat off of it, you can't do that. So it's not really because it just falls off because it's a crate maker, so it's not good for that kind of cooking, but I love it. Anyway, so what I did was is I would throw the stuff into the pe into my main oven, let it cook right until it was set, then I would throw it on top of my uh uh what's what I'm creating maker, kind of like the way they used to do at Oto, right? With the way they would uh stuff, and then I would stick it on there, and then I would throw it into my into the broiler of my brevel, and so I I would have three things going at once.
+
+[47:13] I would have the pre-cook, the crepe maker, and the broiler going all at once, and I could crank out pizzas almost as fast as I used to using using a a triple, a triple technology. Uh oh, I did another interesting thing with the pizza. So, as those of you that don't know, I'm always researching equipment. One of the things I've always wanted to own my whole life is a Japanese vegetable sheeter. You know what I'm talking about, Anastasia?
+
+[47:36] Sure does. Yeah. A Japanese vegetable sheet or they make those vegetable sheets. Now, real Japanese cooks, they use an usuba, which I also know how to do this, to take like a cucumber and turn a cucumber into a long sheet, or a carrot into a long sheet, or a daikon into a long sheet, and then chop it up into strips so you can use it as a garnish for sushi, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. KitchenAid now makes and the the Japanese vegetable sheeters have always been very expensive, but they can do one, but KitchenAid now makes one, so I got one.
+
+[48:05] The one thing the Japanese one can do that's awesome. Have you seen it? It can do the fish netting. So like as you're making the sheet, it has another set of knives that rotates and makes a puncture, so you can make like fishnet stockings out of uh out of your daikon. I don't know how often that comes up.
+
+[48:20] How often do you need a fishnet stocking of daikon? Nah, no. Never? Anyway, so the one problem with the KitchenAid one is it is uh the core is too big. It doesn't like let you get close enough to the core of what you're doing.
+
+[48:31] But I threw a potato on that mother and turned it down into like a potato, like a long potato sheet, and it made probably the best potato pizza I've ever done. Because I tossed it with you know, rosemary, sorry, and uh garlic, oil, salt, pepper, and a little bit of chili, and then like laid them on the pizza lay like in between layer with the layers of parmigiano thing was ridiculous. So now I'm going to do like not a lasagna, but like almost like a gratin with like layers of these sheets, like like kind of thicker than a regular gratin, but not as thick as a lasagna. So I'm all about the potato sheets now. I'm all about all about the potato sheets.
+
+[49:09] Of course, I won't. Oh, uh, see, I don't have time. Shoot, I want to talk about slicers. I had some people talk to me about pressure fryers, which is which is awesome. Wait, uh uh, you're interested in pressure fryers at all?
+
+[49:21] You should be. Okay. Do you like fried chicken? Yeah. So why are you not interested in pressure flyers?
+
+[49:26] Frying in my house, I just don't. I'm not really. All right. Another thing, if anyone has an experience in this, I went to a Polish store in Greenpoint the like a couple weeks ago and bought something that I'm now obsessed with, but it's one of those things where I love it so much and nobody else does. You ready for it?
+
+[49:44] It is mustard pickles. Not mustard pickled eggs, which I love, but literally pickled cucumbers, where it the pickling liquid is some sort of like not quite creamy, but almost creamy, but mustardy based, plus like a little bit of sweet and like sour. Amazing. Like the best hamburger pickle I've had in like a million years, or as long as I guess you'd say 47 years. It's the best hamburger pickle I've had in 47 years, but I can't, but no one else in the in the family likes it.
+
+[50:16] It's not that they like it, they like it on hamburger, but they haven't, they don't like it on its own. So it could be just me. Yeah. You ever had that happen? This is why you gotta watch out and you gotta let people taste a bunch of the stuff that things that you're working on, because a lot of times you'll think something is great, but nobody else will.
+
+[50:31] That happens to me a lot. A lot lot. So back to France. On the way to France, and back from France, by the way, on my iPad, I loaded up Hannibal. You seen that show?
+
+[50:42] No. Is this relevant? It is relevant. Have you seen it? No.
+
+[50:47] Matt? Nope. So uh a number of years ago when it first came out, people were writing into the show to ask me whether we had seen it, because Hannibal, you know, he's a murderer. Yeah. And he eats people.
+
+[50:59] Yeah. Yeah. So this show has a lot of cooking references. Oh, it doesn't he use like a centrifuge or something? He does, well, kind of a BS centrifuge.
+
+[51:09] He centrifuges out blood and then uses just the uh plasma. Um, but he does a lot of interesting cooking. I have some culinary bones to pick with Hannibal, right? Especially on like their description of Ibirico, but the guy clearly has some chops in in the show, and unfortunately, I can't actually get into too many of the details of the cooking because they'd be spoilers. But if you're interested, you go on vacations, and you know the first thing you talk about on every vacation.
+
+[51:43] Dave, did you have a good time? You're like, yeah, I watched Tropic Thunder on the plane and it like made my life. And I'm like, that was not vacation. That's when I go to work. Oh, Dave.
+
+[51:53] That was a family vacation. That was not a family vacation. Jen was on the plane with you. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[52:01] Tropic Thunder is a great movie. Tropic Thunder is a fantastic movie. Right. That's the only thing you told me about your family vacation. And then this is the most recent really good memory he's had.
+
+[52:15] Alright, so anyway, I also had Ibirico Ham in Paris because even though they don't make it there, if you pass a shop, it's literally called Beota Beota, you're like, I'm going in. And of course, I had some delicious stuff there. Uh so in non what I watched on the plane related stuff, Nastasia. Um, so I didn't go to any restaurants. So anyone that I don't have any restaurant recommendations.
+
+[52:41] I had all these people give me amazing restaurant recommendations, so I can probably give you other people's recommendations, but I did not go to restaurants because we were four adults, five kids, and then we met up with Miley and Wiley. Oh wow. So and then we that was two more adults and and two more kids. So I wasn't about to try to go to restaurants with first of all, like even making simple plans, like let's go down the block. Which direction do you want to go in the block when you have that many people is complicated, right?
+
+[53:10] So in general, what we did for dinner was is that we'd go traipse around the city doing whatever we're gonna do, Musee Dorsay, the Louvre. By the way, the Louvre, Musee Dorsey is so much nicer as a museum than the Louvre. You've been to these museums? Long time ago. The Dors Dorsay is amazing museum.
+
+[53:26] The Louvre, I mean, they have great stuff, like from a food perspective. I saw the Arcing Bulldo pictures where you know the four seasons where the faces are made of veg and fruit, but there's so many people crammed around all of the work that you're like, hey, you know what I mean? Like, like everyone who goes that I know, like Wiley also, everyone everyone goes takes pictures of people looking at the Mona Lisa because A, who really cares about the Mona Lisa, but you have to drag your freaking kids to it. You show up at this museum and you're like, okay, kids, we have to see the Mona Lisa, we have to see the Venus de Milo, we have to see the Wing Victory. Do they really care?
+
+[54:00] It's just so they can say that they've seen it. Whereas at Dorsey is an amazing like museum experience. Anyway, so we would go do whatever we're gonna do. Went to Versailles, which is awesome. Oh my god.
+
+[54:11] So we went to Versailles, we're eating this picnic lunch, and the kids start feeding these ducks. And I'm like, kids, don't feed the freaking ducks. And then a freaking swan shows up, and I'm like, if you feed and I was with some little kids, I was like, if you feed that swan, that swan will come over and rip your face off. I was like, that and uh I'd freaked the kind of kids out, but I kind of should, and the swan was super aggressive about trying to get a hold of our bread products. Swans hate them.
+
+[54:39] Anyway, so uh so first thing we did was we went to the catacombs, and then I went to one of my favorite cheese uh shops, Catrum, and picked up for the very first night a big thing of Vachram Mondora, which is one of my favorite cheeses. Love it. It wasn't the best one, I have to say. But every day all we did was go out and get cheeses. The problem is is that Parisians, not that they're lazy, but they don't seem to like to have their stores open on Sundays and Mondays.
+
+[55:05] It's like most of the finest cheese and meat shops were not open on Sundays and Mondays. So of the four days I was there, two days everything was shut, and the last day, um, we spent most of the day at Versailles, but I did get to hit some amazing places. I went to my on the last day, my favorite one of my favorite cheese shops in the world, Bartolomey, which is uh like right off of uh Rue de Bach uh stop in in Paris, which is close. We stayed in a fantastic place in the sixth right near the Luxembourg Garden. Amazing, a lot of good food uh you know, food places around there.
+
+[55:39] Uh so I walked in and had one of the best Mondors. They're apparently, and it's spelled Bartholomew with like a Y in English, but Bartolome, they're supposedly it's a little jewel of a cheese shop where it's like all kind of old, like wood and tile, and like it's like cool, and it's just like like a little almost like a shoebox at the side of the wall, an expensive freaking shoebox, and they do their like like affinage downstairs, and they're famously kind of not very cool to people, but we I was like almost closed. We had just gotten back from Versailles. Our train was delayed. I run off the train with my cousin Nathan.
+
+[56:14] We run, we run over there. I run in, I'm like, Mondor. And they give me the I was like, I was like, is that one ready for tonight? You know, I'm doing my basic, my my, you know, my hacked up awful French at this lady. And she's like, yes, yeah, yeah.
+
+[56:29] It's like towards the end of the season, but this is the best one in Paris right now. I'm like, okay, I take it. I'm like, that tetamon. And like they have a you know, tetamoin is that cheese that you put on a girl and you turn into the flowers. And Bartholomew, one of the things they do, Bartalanet, what they do is they is they they pre-g roll it and then they make the flowers for you so you don't have to have a girl, and they package it and they give it to you.
+
+[56:49] So I got one of those, and I was talking to Nate. Turns out she speaks English, because I'm talking to my cousin Nathan in English about the Giro, and she's like, so she started to take a shine to me. Uh, you know, even though apparently she's not supposed to, but maybe because I was so aggressive about what cheeses I wanted. And uh they have an electric Giro. She's like, it's not so difficult for us to do the Giro work because we have an electric Giro downstairs.
+
+[57:12] And she showed me her little affinage space downstairs, which was cool, and then recommended some hyper-age, I think she said three years, three-year-old conte, which was like the best conte I've ever had. And that same day we went to Gilles Varraux, which is the famous uh charcuterie place, and again, I was a little bit aggro, which apparently worked because they were extremely nice to me in the charcuterie place. I was getting all sorts of you know, Lyonnaise uh intestine based sausage, not the outside, whole sausage made of intestine, and just some fantastic charcuterie there. Um also I found a cheese shop that I had never been to, so I've been to, you know, been to Bartolome before, been to Catrum before, uh, both run by women. Uh I went to another shop that I've never been to before, which I recommend if you're in Paris, uh, in near the Luxembourg Gardens, where all they are is a cooperative store selling products that are from the area around where Beaufort is made.
+
+[58:05] And they had a hydraulic cheese cleaver with like a laser line on it. So they had these giant, like 100 and change pound wheels of Beaufort cheese, three, you know, several different kinds, and then this giant knife with a laser line on it, and they would just turn this giant wheel and go k-chunk and it would go boom, which is so much more impressive than that wire that people cut things with, right? Because it's just like boom, and they would sell it. And they were mean to me on the first day I went there, real mean. Real mean the second day I went there, and the third day I went, they were like, hey, what's up?
+
+[58:40] And they were like so nice to me. And I was like, like, so it's three times as a charm. I brought you back some Beaufort from there. I can't wait. I have to.
+
+[58:47] Oh my God. It's like this old gigantic. It's this old Beaufort that you can't get in the US that's summer, it's summer, but then aged over a year. So it's like from not recent summer, the summer before that. And it is ridiculous Beaufort.
+
+[59:02] And also in there, eventually, once they're nice to you, you can be like, all right, what else? What else here? What do I need to get? And so she like gave me possibly the best wild blueberry jelly I've ever had in my life, but I'm not gonna bring that back because I'm not a chump, I don't check bags. And then she hands me these walnuts, and she's like, these walnuts are the best walnuts.
+
+[59:21] I was like, well, don't tell the people from Grenoble that they're the best walnuts because they think they have the best. And she goes, These are from Grenoble. I was like, Booyah! It sounds not like walnuts and jelly and some sick Beaufort cheese, and that'll have to be it for this week. Cooking issues.
+
+[59:47] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com backslash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:00:16] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
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+[1:00:41] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you with support from Fair Plate. Tickets and information at F A R E P L A T E dot com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. This year, we're celebrating 10 years of food radio.
+
+[0:21] For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more. It's been 10 years and we're just getting started. Find us at heritageradio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:45] Yeah, I don't know, like what is it, like 120 or something? From Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brrrr Brooklyn. Got a totally different crew in the in the house today. Nastasia DeHammer Lopez may be calling in uh later. She is in California discussing pasta with very fancy folks, very fancy pasta folks, and eating some low quality white bread, which we can talk about later.
+
+[1:07] But in Nastasia's place, we have Robert Patrick Murphy, aka Bobby, Bobby Donuts. How you doing? I'm doing really well. Great to be on the show. Yeah, Bobby is the uh beverage director of existing conditions, a bar you might be aware of that uh I'm involved with on West A Street in Manhattan, New York City.
+
+[1:27] And we do not have Matt in the booth today. We have Jeet. Jeet, how you doing? I'm good, man. How are you?
+
+[1:32] Doing all right. Now you've never done this show before, right? I have not. We're we're this is the first time we've worked together. Right.
+
+[1:38] So we're gonna have to go through some stuff here. So what what is your like like give me some food information about you so I have some sort of feeling about who you are. Okay. Um uh like what I like to eat, or like what I like what I think about food. Sure.
+
+[1:52] Okay. Um I I guess I like to eat home cooked food more than uh go out and eat. I just recently started to cook over the last two to three years. Was not much into food before that, but uh after interning at Heritage Radio Network and getting into the engineering side, uh really started to be fascinated by it. So you're coming at it, you you you you you came to this like strictly as an audio engineer.
+
+[2:17] All right. Yeah. And when you say how how many people live where you live? Uh it's just me and like two roommates. Two roommates.
+
+[2:25] And so you cook for them, they cook for you? Oh no, not at all. I cook for myself. Really? Yeah.
+
+[2:30] Interesting. So, like what level of thing do you cook for yourself? So I think the world, like the i it's when you talk to people that cook, right? So like I love to cook, right? I mean, I I I hope people know that.
+
+[2:41] Uh but I I love to cook, but I never cook for myself. When I'm when I'm eating just and also I don't like dining alone. So like it's not that I don't mean I know I don't mind it's never an occasion for me to eat out. So I'm never that guy who's like getting blown out like solo in uh in a uh at a place. By the way, not a sexual term.
+
+[3:03] That just means being treated well uh at an extent. Not a sexual term. Uh well, and Bobby, like verify this so I'm not the only guy saying it when maybe not as much at a bar, but even at a bar, but at a restaurant. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Bobby uh isn't just just I mean just a bar guy, not insulting bar guys, but like comes from a fine dining uh background, was at next uh in Chicago for a long time, correct? Yes.
+
+[3:31] Yeah. Uh originally from uh Iowa. So if you have any I.O. questions. By the way, I'll give the phone number to call in.
+
+[3:38] 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128 for any bar slash Chicago, because that's where he was working for many years, slash Iowa slash cooking for yourself questions called in. When you show up at a restaurant, specifically a fine dining restaurant solo, you get VIP'd instantly. Not because I don't know why, but it's just it's like it's the culture that if someone shows up alone, you give them I guess because the assumption is is that they don't have someone to talk to that you Yeah, you spend a lot of time with them, but people like J Pasqual that has four reservations in one night to go to like three fine dining restaurants, sometimes doesn't even talk. Um still you treat them like people who are solo diners get treated well. They get treated really well.
+
+[4:20] I mean you sp you tend to spend a lot of time with them. You spend uh tend to like talk to them a lot more, I guess, than other tables. Um but I mean not necessarily, like it's all dependent on the person. Some people are there and like they dine alone and they're like super strategic about like taking notes and like want to be left alone or like doing documentation. But yeah, some people like they eat it up.
+
+[4:40] Yeah, they want to they want to be like talked to and they want to be given that experience, you know, since there is no one else around. When I'm alone, uh when I'm alone, I just eat as fast as is humanly possible and you know, GTFO. You know what I mean? I'm like the kitchen loves you for that. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:58] So like, although well known story, I wasn't not eating alone. I almost got kicked out of a Michelin-starred restaurant in Madrid for eating too fast before they could explain what was going on because they were taking so long with their danged explanations of what the hell they were serving me. But back back to where we're going. So when I'm eat when I'm cooking for myself, I either make something that my family does not like to eat, right? Like uh I now now my kids are kind of better with it, but like I love poached eggs on toast.
+
+[5:28] So it for years it used to be if I was alone, poached eggs on toast, and then if I had a country ham in the fridge, which PS is always, I would like throw a couple slices of raw country ham on top of the poached eggs and toast, done. That was dinner, you know. Uh but yeah, like so or like you know, lunch breakfast. I'm never cooking for myself. I'll have leftovers or whatever else.
+
+[5:49] So I think to me it's it's it's interesting that I don't know. So but gee, you like cooking for yourself. I do, and my girlfriend, of course. She loves my cooking. Well, how often does your girlfriend come over to eat?
+
+[6:01] Uh at least once a week. Oh maybe twice. Yeah. Is this okay with your roommates? Oh, yeah, they have to be okay with it.
+
+[6:07] Uh well, is it okay? So in any apartment situation, there's one person who kind of rules the roost. Are you the ruler of the roost? Is this your apartment and the other people are gloming on, or is it an evil share? Considering that I'm the one with the master bedroom, I would think so.
+
+[6:20] Yeah, yeah. See, Bobby is in the opposite position. He is in a situation where he is not the ruler of the roost, and so he does he would not feel comfortable. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Bobby, bringing people over and doing a big to-do because you don't feel like it's your place, right? There's just not enough space.
+
+[6:37] Like, it's just not an apartment conducive for entertaining. Yeah, but even if it was like you always say you're like, I feel like, you know, uh, I mean, invite some people for cocktails or something, but like, yeah, not not for dinner. By the way, Dave, we have uh Ryan from California, and he had a question about induction cooking uh for home cooking. Do it. What's up?
+
+[6:58] Uh here we go. All right. He should be on right now. Ryan, what's going on? Hey Dave, how are you?
+
+[7:07] Doing well. Good. Good. So my question was um, I'm looking for a commercial induction cooktop, but for home use. Well, one I'm specifically looking in the stocky close here.
+
+[7:25] I'm looking for one with a knob, a big old knob on it. And it needs to be 120 volts. Since you know, I looked at the home models and all of them have the touch screens and all that junk. And since I'm blind, I can't really use that. Right.
+
+[7:45] So I know you have the control freak, which is great, but that's a little out of my budget. So uh well, so I'd I'd like your opinion or recommendations or you know any anything you any advice you give me. Okay, so this is an interesting, this is a super interesting question. I'm trying to think about all the units I've used. So the the control freak has what the control freak has, besides being out of your budget, the control freak, Bobby, you've used the control freak, right?
+
+[8:13] So the and for those of you that don't know, Control Freak is the uh collab between uh Preston from Polyscience and Breville. They came out with a an induction burner that was kind of meant for caterers and pro people, but still plugs into a 120. It is pricey, right? Uh, but the one of the advantages it does have is that most inexpensive or home induction units have a um uh they're all kind of membrane switches, right? So you're not getting a kind of a tactile uh feedback.
+
+[8:48] And I have to say that while the um while the uh uh the control freak does have a big old knob on it, for those of you that have uh if you've ever used it, the knob isn't an uh what I would call a hard knob. It's uh it's a rotary encoder. So you know, you could sit there and you know keep turning it, turning it, turning it. So it doesn't actually provide a down-up reference, if that makes sense. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:19] Like it it only you obviously you could tell I am moving up, I am moving down, uh, but you can't say, for instance, um you can't be like I'm at half, but you can't so like it for me, like a lot of times if I'm looking for tactile response, I'll just I'll I'll auto-go all the way to off and then I know where halfway is, right? Uh or I could tell or I could tell by uh, you know, if I've used a piece of equipment for a long time, I know the or I know the uh orientation of the of the whatever you call the pull of, you know, the the the thing you hold on to, you know, that that that part of the knob, the actual thing that your finger, yeah. I know the position of that relative to the you know to the input that I want to provide. And the control freak won't do that. It does have a um it does have some audible um some audible feedback, right?
+
+[10:11] Uh in terms of you know, I am on or I, you know, I have been uh turned off. Uh I believe it also provides audible uh feedback on what you what that you've hit uh the temperature or can do. Now I know it's not in your price range, we're just talking about it because the other thing is that it is somewhat programmable, and I would bet, having spoken to the people at Breville, right, that um it could be made with small amounts of intervention, and it might be a project they want to take on. I don't know. I mean I I haven't spoken to them in a long time, but I know a lot of people who do a lot of work with them.
+
+[10:50] Uh uh and like it like for instance, like you could make it such that it provided a s there's no way to change it from uh a rotary encoder to a hard knob, but like maybe it could provide a different a different tone for what temperature or th you know whatever power uh it has turned to right now. Now, to go back to all the other non-expensive induction units that I've ever used, the only induction units I've ever used that have a hard knob on them are cooktechs and the cook tech units made in Chicago, by the way. Bobby one of the only ones of value. Like it's the problem with uh control freak is yes, it's expensive, but like I have found garlands as well who have the knobs. There is one by um made by Max Burton, but they're it's also you know the membrane controlled yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:38] I'm looking at the garlands right now. How much are they cost? How much did the garland makes a 120? Um yeah, it does. They have a induction trick top that's uh portable, it's one twenty.
+
+[11:53] Um of course, since it's one twenty, it's it only goes up to eighteen hundred watts, but that's that's fine for me. It's actually a lot of power. Like, so for those you know, if you haven't used them a lot before, uh, you know, eight eight eighteen hundred watts, they're probably lying, it's probably closer to fifteen hundred, but okay, let's pretend that it's eighteen hundred watts. Um that is much more powerful than the average person's gas uh burner. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:19] Not not more powerful than mine, but more powerful than the average person's gas burner. Uh you know, in other words, it's enough uh for most for most things. So what what do they charge for that though? It's like 755. You know, kind of expensive.
+
+[12:33] But since I'm assuming it's, you know, it's commercial, I'm assuming it's gonna last a lot longer to be made out of better build quality, so on and so forth. So the cook techs that I've used are very robo. The cooktechs I've used are like heavy duty, but I've never used a 120 CookTech, and they are very expensive. They are like more than the um uh control freak. They are, but they'll last a really long time, and they they have a really good policy on returns and repair.
+
+[13:01] Um Yeah, I've not used Garland's uh Garland is owned by who owns them now? They're owned, they're owned by one of the large conglomerates now. I can't I can't remember which one. But for if if something does cost 600 bucks, if Garland's willing to stand behind it, uh, you know, I'd say that sounds like a good deal for something with a hard knob because the only hard knob induction unit I've ever used costs two grand at least. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:29] Uh and use it, and it isn't portable in this. I mean, it is portable, but it's not portable in the sense that you know you need a uh, you know, a uh a 220 outlet for it. Um I will say this in general. Uh Garland's gone through a bunch of cycles. Like Garland was once a an extremely well-loved brand.
+
+[13:48] Then Garland went into the hole for a number of years for for a long period of time. People stopped using Garland. Garland then got, I believe, either bought or the brand got renovated and then Garland's quality started kind of going up. Garland, but as I said, Garland's part of a much larger group. So just because it has the Garland name on it doesn't mean that it's being built by them.
+
+[14:10] They're probably having someone else in their group. Because, you know, I don't know that they specifically, like engineers who actually go to like a building with the word garland on it every day, like have that kind of expertise. They're probably they're probably outsourcing that. I'm talking at, by the way, this is not research. This is just like, you know, off the top of my head.
+
+[14:30] Um so a lot of times when you have units, two different teams will be entirely different in terms of build quality. Now, if they're willing to put the Garland name on it, my hope would be that since the last time I checked, Garland was on an upswing in terms of its kind of quality, that they would only put their name on something that they're proud of and that they would stand behind it, which sounds good. It's a little suspicious that anyone would sell a commercial burner for only $600. You know what I mean? Because in general, anytime you you put the word commercial on it, it the assumption is that I'm gonna beat the ever-loving snot out of it and that they're gonna have to fix it because I am going to abuse it.
+
+[15:12] For instance, the spinzalls that I'm having now are like I'm getting feedback from people, and we can get into it later if anyone cares, about the kind of the different kinds of abuse that they're going through that we now have to figure out how to tell people how to fix. And I can go into that you know at length if someone cares about it. But uh I'd say give it a shot. What do you think, Bobby? I mean, if you need the hard knob, I would say you don't have a lot of other choices.
+
+[15:34] Yeah, I mean, if the hard knob's what you if you want, um, do it. Oh, we'll I will say drastically though, like I don't know if you own your home. Like, there is a lot of like larger companies that you can buy in unit countertop things now that are a lot more affordable with a lot more high like power rated stuff. But a lot of those are also membrane now. Like Gaganao doesn't have hard knobs.
+
+[15:53] Yeah, I don't think. I mean, if you look at my brother-in-law, I forget which one he just bought, he just bought, I think he bought an induction unit. The other thing is, induction isn't quite there for home yet. It's not quite there. Like, like you can buy like the ranges, like you can buy the ranges, but for instance, like range over oven combos are uh range over oven combos are um they don't have a lot of 36-inch units, so they don't go for like the prosumer people that go for like the 30-inch wide units.
+
+[16:21] And honestly, like all the and having dealt with engineers on the engineering side of this, everyone, and I hate to say this, even on the the spinzole, because people keep breaking the knobs off of them, right? We might have to move to what now on a spinzall, it's not so bad because there's not a lot of but you know what? You having this conversation with you, if I ever did have to move to a membrane, I would definitely think about adding some sort of feedback to it so that you knew where you were, some sort of audible feedback to it so you knew where you were. Because it's it it honestly hadn't registered in my head that it would that it that that would be a problem. Now I I put the knobs on it specifically because I wanted the tactile feedback that I think everyone regardless appreciates in a piece of equipment, but just because of the breaking we're getting on it, we might have to move to to membranes.
+
+[17:12] I mean, definitely not capacitive things, but that's the problem. Everyone now is moving to touch screens and capacitive things. Not only do they really suck for people when their hands are wet, but they've, you know, very, very uh it's not often that they have any sort of haptics or feedback mechanism so that you can tell what's going on. Uh and it is an interesting problem. And the next time I do talk to the uh control pre-free people, I will um I will definitely mention it to them if if I talk to them.
+
+[17:39] Uh now. Maybe maybe also look uh we do have a Heston cue at the bar. I mean, obviously it's not tactile and ob situation, but for the price, I feel like I use that thing three to four times a week and it does the job, depending on the interesting thing to that is it doesn't have a hard knob, but it does have a slider. Yeah. So in other words, instead of a membrane switch, it do you remember the old um you remember the old iPad uh iPod interface with the round click wheel?
+
+[18:07] I do. That would work. Um I've thought about getting a wolf home unit and then labeling with some tactile docs. And I I think they make some audio feedback. But you know, those are those are expensive too, anything is gonna be an investment.
+
+[18:24] Um this is a $300 investment, and it seems like for a home use, like I would be perfectly happy with it in my apartment. Yeah, it's uh it's meant to have a bunch of other interactive stuff with your phone, which we've never done. One last thing, I have used a Garland induction unit before, but a real robo. So Garland makes some induction walks. They're one of the manufacturers that pr that that sells induction walks.
+
+[18:47] I'm not gonna say they produce it, like someone in the larger group produces it, probably. But they have two, they have two different levels of induction walk, and at the museum we have the screamer. It's like, get this, it's like it's something stupid. It's like six kilowatts or something like that. It's like the normal ones, like four kilowatts, and ours is like you know, somewhere between five and six kilowatts.
+
+[19:09] Kilowatts. And it's just like and we were like, all of us, so when you're using induction, uh, right. So when you're an induction burner uh is actually the reason it only works on um uh things that are mag, you know, magnetic uh uh is that it's not just the principle of induction that they're using. They're using what's called the hysteresis loss, uh, which is uh you know uh the hysteresis loss, uh, and that's why they have to find a particular frequency so that they get the maximum loss in there and they're generating a lot of energy that way. So an actual furnace that's melting aluminum can melt aluminum with induction, and that's how you do it typically.
+
+[19:47] But it takes scabs more uh um current than you would use to heat an induction uh uh pot, and that's why they only really work on things that are magnetic, right? But um uh I forget where I was going with it. So oh, so you can't heat anything up above what's called the curie temperature on an induction range, which is you know, right as it starts to cherry up on you. But we dropped some walks into this thing and it went like right up to cherry almost instantly. It was like we had a bunch of professional uh you know, walk chefs from Chinese uh restaurants come in, high-end Chinese restaurants come in, and like universally beforehand, if they had never used an induction walk, they're like, This is gonna suck.
+
+[20:28] This sucks. How do you you know because it's not gas? And then we drop it in and they're all like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. So and that's a garland. So that thing kicks them serious behind.
+
+[20:38] So if the same team put their imprimatur on this that put their impramata on that walk, then you're in luck, but you never never know. Please, if you do try it, please call us back and let us know how it worked out. Absolutely. And if you need help with uh making a more intuitive design with the screws as far as membranes are consumed, call me up. I know some people or I can help you out myself.
+
+[20:59] Oh, cool. Shoot me uh shoot me something on uh cooking issues on Twitter so that uh we can uh uh keep in touch about it. Absolutely. All right, you guys have a great day. Thanks.
+
+[21:07] Now you too. Thanks. Um what were we talking about before that? I forget. Cooking.
+
+[21:13] We're talking about cooking at home for yourself. Yep. Uh Dave, we've got uh Wes asking about country ham. Wait, is this Wes is calling about country ham? Yeah, okay.
+
+[21:22] I remember this is from a Twitter thing, because I have a different thing on ham coming up in a second. Wes, how you doing? Good. Yeah, just follow up. So gonna be we my wife and I only got two young kids who will not be eating huge quantities, and so we want to make the purchase count.
+
+[21:38] Um love the Suriano. Haven't really had much else from other US ham buyers. I used to um steal ham from Spain and and smuggle it in my baggage back in the day, but I don't have the opportunity to do that now. Don't have the opportunity because you're a global entry and so you're worried about getting caught, or because you don't go abroad. Just less travel with little kids now.
+
+[22:01] Yeah, for sure. By the way, if you happen to be independently wealthy, they do have some very good uh like uh iberico, baiota fed iberico that's coming into the country now, but it's preposterously expensive. It's worth it. Right. It's worth it.
+
+[22:18] No, about the J5. Oh man, yeah. The J5 is where you need to put your money for sure. Yeah, I mean, like that stuff is like the the the correct number of J's. You gotta get the correct number of J's and that thing, but that stuff is ridiculous.
+
+[22:32] And uh some guy comes by with a 3J. Don't take it. Yeah. So like we're talking, we're talking about Cinco Hotes, which is like single hotes. Like that to me, like that is of commercially available like Spanish hams, like that is the uh the gold standard.
+
+[22:49] I'm not saying it's the best, it's the one you rate others against. Yep. You know what I mean? And the only reason that I'm not saying it's the best is because I haven't tried everyone. Right?
+
+[22:58] It's the best one I've tried. Now, I uh and Peter Kaminsky, who wrote uh, you know, uh uh uh a book on uh ham or pork um and you know was involved in the original taste test we did for American country hams back in like oh three or oh four, right? Uh he once said to uh a collected group of people, which included like Jeffrey Steingart and a bunch of other, you know, uh food, food uh intelligents at the time, that um Spanish ham at its best is the Beatles and everything else is the Dave Clark 5. That's what he said. Uh and I was like, you know, Pete, I didn't call him Pete because I don't really know him that well, but I was like, in my mind, I was like, you know, Pete, that's not really fair.
+
+[23:42] They're different products, right? Uh and you know, I eat American country ham and you know, prosciutto on its own, right? Because uh I I enjoy it, but it's a different experience, both in terms of your pocketbook and in terms of kind of what you would use it for uh than a Bayota fed i ibirico. I would go ahead and say that anyone that does anything with the with like the Bayota stuff other than just eat it straight, is an a-hole. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:13] Like you're throwing away, like if you're using the the scraps or anything else, fine, whatever. You know what I mean? The little pizza, but you know, or like in Spain, they use the in you know, in Catalonia, they use the fat for different things and everything. I I love how you lied to yourself and you're like two pieces in the pen contour, and you're like, yeah, no, just wonder my thinking. And it's immediately like just open mouth.
+
+[24:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because it's a waste. Now, American hams, on the other hand, although like I don't really believe they should be uh they're fine cooked traditionally, but like I think they stand on their on their own merits and they're different. So you shouldn't think about it as better or worse, just different and worth different amounts of money because of the different kind of procedures that go into them.
+
+[24:54] Now, I have had nut fed, long cured American hams. Edwards used to make one because he used to buy some like really strong uh pork from Patrick Martins at Heritage Meets and cure it. I think that entire stock was lost. Cesare Cassella makes an American ham more in the Italian style using that same pork, which is delicious, and I advise you to kind of get a hold of it. Um but in traditional American stuff, Sam Edwards makes a very good product.
+
+[25:24] Nancy Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's, I haven't had her product in a long time. I used to love, and I think I said this on Twitter uh in response. Like I used to love um uh I used to love those those hams uh because they have this kind of distinct blue cheese note, just realize if you buy from her, like you know, I've had on more than one occasion there be some taint along the bone. By the way, if you buy uh a American ham and you get some taint along the bone, just cut away the taint and you're good to go. Yeah, no, I don't I've had them before, I just cut it away.
+
+[25:56] Yeah, yeah. Uh I mean I like her stuff. I have a broadband in my fridge right now. That broadband's eating really well at the at the at the bar, by the way, uh, you know, don't don't want to get anyone jealous out there, but we had a um a gravity fed kind of modern Berkle, and in transport or somehow somebody drops something on the gauge plate, which is the thing that moves up and down to uh give you the um uh thickness, and so it wobbles, and unfortunately, on the unit that we had, it's not easy to get into, it's not like you're just adjusting a uh you know a shim or a guide plate to get the gauge plate to be rigid again. And you cannot slice things properly unless your gauge plate is rock solid.
+
+[26:39] And so I was yelling at the at the at the folks in the kitchen, I was like, any idiot at a subway or blimpies can slice a freaking piece of meat. What's wrong with you? You know what I mean? Because they couldn't until I went back and inspected the slicer. And so this is one of the reasons why to the to date we haven't had any ham on the menu at existing conditions.
+
+[27:00] But uh today we are getting delivered a some another loaner of a vertical slicer, Burkle Slicer. And how are you slicing this ham by the way, Wes? Um, I actually have like a hundred dollar home meat slicer and it's sharp knives that are long. Um and you know, the home unit is made by like Chef's Choice or whatever, and actually is pretty nice. But it's rotary?
+
+[27:27] Yeah. Huh. And it's similar to the rival, but it's made by Chef's Choice. I believe so. Yeah.
+
+[27:32] So the thing about it is is is that um most home units, the pro what they lack other than sharpness and size of the blade, which is a big thing, is uh and so I'm assuming you're cutting the ham down into smaller pieces so that you don't have to try to take such a big slice of it, right? Yeah, I might do both. I might like hunk off a big hunk and then slice some on because I like the presentation, but I don't know. Right, yeah. The other thing they lack usually is stiffness.
+
+[27:59] So if you get it sharp enough so you don't have to press too hard on it to get it to slice, I'm sure they can do they can do an okay job. But in it, whenever you have a gravity-fed um slicer, what ends up happening is is you're getting tear-off at the bottom, and that's why you get that raggedy bottom on the bottom of your products, and why uh they always you have to if you have a round product, that's why you see people rotating the round product as you go, because it's it's it's as you push down and in, it's cutting more off of one side than the other, and so they end up angling out on you. But we're getting a vertical slicer, which means that our slices will be perfect. Our slices will be perfect. Uh so anyway, we have a good broadband at the bar, which is where I started into this, where you have a two-year-old Benton's.
+
+[28:42] So I would say, and we haven't sliced into it yet because I didn't want to mutilate it on the on our broken slicer. I think a lot depends on what uh the most of these people, if you're sticking with someone that's you know well known for it, like a Benton's or a Finchville or a or an or a Newsom's or an Edwards or any of these. I'm not a Laquertia fan. No. I know you're from Iowa, but I just don't like what the guy does to Hams.
+
+[29:06] He trims off all the fat, claims that that's the way that they're done in in Italy, and then gives you this like I think overly dried, overly small. I'm not a Laquertia fan. You like it just because you're from Iowa or you what No, I'm like a I like their spec a lot. Speck's a different product. Yeah, I know.
+
+[29:22] You know what I mean? I still I still think for what is entry level to the market price. It's not entry level. For for the money that LaQuerch charges, I would take a product from Sam Edwards any day of the week. Or or Nancy, you know, or or broadband's or Finchville or Bentons or any one of those crew.
+
+[29:42] You said broadband, uh broadbent. But you have to get their good ones like you have to get their good ones. You know what I mean? And I believe, not to not to not to you know shill out for the for the for the mothership here, but like uh Patrick Martins uh has specific relationships with ham curing people who are uh using good quality pork because he's if you ever gotten Patrick like going on something, he's like, Oh yeah, I don't like them, they use the cheapest, the cheapest meat, the cheapest meats, and so like he like tracks when people are using the good hams, and then will often buy them back and distribute them. So he's like working with Cesare, and so you know he he's very uh as I've said many times in the past, the almost all of the American producers have you know 100, 200 years of ham curing in their collective uh you know consciousness.
+
+[30:35] So it's they're not like kind of you know um Jane come lately to this whole kind of a situation. Uh it's just that that you know, for many years Americans have been using kind of commodity pork, and that's one of the things that's holding them back. And the other thing holding them back is they're being pushed to kind of quick cure things to get you know to the minimum um you know to the maximum uh speed that they can do it, so minimum amount of time of aging. So you're looking at four or five months hams, and even at the same uh level of dryness, a four or five month ham isn't gonna slice the way a one-year, two-year ham is going. So I would say, call, call whoever you're interested in and say, do you have anything that's 12 months or better?
+
+[31:14] And then if they do, buy that. And then you're probably gonna be uh happy with it. Now I can't remember the name of it. There was an outfit, uh I forget what they what they oh my god, I can't really can't remember what it was. There was an outfit out of the south that was doing only mast fed uh stuff.
+
+[31:31] So they were sourcing from a bunch of different farmers. Mass fed means they were eating acorns and whatever else they were doing. And there used years ago, there was one called Peaceful Patchers that was doing Tamworth hogs that were all mass-fed, all made on that person's farm, and they were amazing. Uh in terms of the fat had that kind of uh oily quality that you get off of the Gabrico. Uh but I can't remember what the name of this place was, but it was an outfit that was only doing mass-fed hogs in America.
+
+[31:55] You should we should Google it. I will also Google it. The price was phenomenally high, but if my memory serves me, the product was also very good. They were not an old ham producer, they were a newer ham producer, maybe even a co-op, but just like stressing the importance of the feed of the hog before it before it was killed, which I believe is obviously something that we've watched. And here in I mean, I'm in Washington, but in Oregon, there's gonna be some good product coming up soon.
+
+[32:21] Um they're facilitating burned down too. This place called Tales and Trotters out of Portland, Oregon. Um, their goal in life is to make uh because we have so many hazelnuts out here growing, they want to do hazelnut fed uh uh Pushita style ham. And do they have stuff in cure already? I believe so, but yeah, like their stuff burned down in 2017, so they had to start up.
+
+[32:44] Uh uh Yeah, so it's probably a little while before the stuff's on the market. Did you try stuff before it burnt down, or did they never get any product to the market? They never, I mean, they they're they were selling shorter trim stuff, but they it was sad timing. Their Proschito never made it to market before it burned down. So I don't I don't know.
+
+[33:05] I mean he knows what he's talking about, he knows what he's doing, but I've never tried the prosciutto style. That's very sad. That's very sad. Anyway, I just back up. Anyone, yeah, but uh anyone but just losing all that stock is sad.
+
+[33:18] Like the stories when Sam Edwards place burned down of dogs eating uh the meat, you know, in the ruins is like Yeah, there's like such big stories about that. Like when uh the Mad Cow disease hit like Japan, like there's like pictures of Japanese farmers like burying their Waiku cows and like praying over them, like how sad they were to like raise those and do the whole process. Well, yeah, anyone that cares about their product, when they lose that product, they're losing a piece of themselves, and I feel for them. You know what I mean? And also, I was saying, what's the name of that company again?
+
+[33:47] Um, hang on. Because I believe we should support people who are trying to do this sort of thing. Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's called uh tails and trotters. Tails and trotters.
+
+[33:56] All right. Well, I can't say anything about their product because I haven't tried it, but I will gladly support them if the product matches it because I support the project. Right? Cool. Anyway, all right, so uh if you find anything good, let me know.
+
+[34:09] Your suggestion. All right, cool. Let me know if you find anything good. Hit me up on the Twitter. All right.
+
+[34:15] So let me see here. I got some uh I got something on something similar. So here's uh here's what it is. This is in from uh Kit uh Kim Yardi Ferrer, which by the way, thank you for helping me on the pronunciation because I would not have gotten it otherwise. Uh hello, Hammer.
+
+[34:33] You're being hammered today, Bobby. I'm hammered. Yeah. Not yet. Uh Hammer, Dave, and the rest.
+
+[34:38] Gee, you're the rest. How do you feel about that? As always. Yeah. Oh long time listener.
+
+[34:43] I've heard 266 of your 357 episodes. We had 357 episodes. We're at 357 now. Uh, but first time email writer, the restaurant group where I work as creative chef just got a gift of a whole leg of pure blood Wagyu beef. So we're talking about you know beef and ham together, right?
+
+[35:00] Steamship round. Yeah, uh well, we want to turn it into a raw cured ham. So not obviously not ham, but you want to raw cure, you want to cure it and serve it raw. Uh I want a soft texture with a strong cured flavor, so I'm thinking about brining it for three weeks, you using Brian Poulson's all-purpose brine recipe of one gallon water, 225 grams of sea salt, 125 grams of sugar, and 42 grams of cure number one, because it's impossible to find cure number two in Mexico City. Alright, so you're in Mexico City.
+
+[35:26] Then hang it for 18 months. You listen, you're gonna want uh you want the one with nitrate, not the one with nitrite. You need the longer acting stuff. So just order it from Modernist Pantry or whomever will ship it. What?
+
+[35:41] Amazon usually has it too. Well, but he's got it shipped to Mexico. Anyway, but like uh you want the longer acting stuff because even in a in a brine situation, it needs to make it in before it gets converted to get the kind of the kind of cure. Is 21 days enough brining time considering the beef leg is three times the thickness of pork leg but ten times more weight? Uh what should I do?
+
+[36:02] Should I brine it instead of dry salting? I would say no. I would not brine it instead of dry salting for this kind of uh this kind of an application because none of the great dry cured products in the world are brined. You know what I mean? Uh like none of them.
+
+[36:17] No. So while I've never done a side-by-side, like like the fact that I don't know of anyone that does it that way is uh kind of tells you something. I also don't know of anyone that does the whole leg as a as a piece, right? So uh I looked up on uh, you know, it's my old recommendations on um curing hams, right? And typically, so in a ham, in an American ham, when you're measuring a ham, you measure the depth uh from where the face of the meat on top is all the way to where the fat is on the other side, and they call that the depth of cushion.
+
+[36:56] And they talk about curing seven days per inch of cushion because on a ham, there's all that fat on the one side. I don't know how your leg is trimmed, but there's all that fat on the on the one side. And the uh cure does not penetrate through the fat uh nearly, nearly, nearly as much as it does through the leaner part of it. Now, uh, so they recommend seven inches per uh seven days per inch inch of cushion. I would, if I were you, and I also don't know how much the intramuscular marbling on a wagyu is going to affect the penetration rate because all that fat is gonna stop the penetration rate.
+
+[37:31] So uh I would look at as your reference, I would look at, and I know that if you're in Mexico, now that I know you're in Mexico, that you know, for you Sesina is something different, but I would look at the Cecina de Leon, the Spanish kind of version of it, and if you look at the pieces, even the biggest pieces they have, which are cut off the leg, that's all made from leg, right? Uh, there's kind of squashed flat, right? So it's not the weight isn't the important thing you're dealing with here, it's the thickness. So I would I would I would I you know if you really need to do it with the bone in, I guess, but I I would I would take the pieces off and kind of push them uh flatter, right? And then um and then salt them.
+
+[38:11] I I'd have to have like maybe someone on online here, a Johnny Hunter can weigh in at some point, or I can text him on whether he's ever salted something that big. I know that uh I've had hams made before from 350 pound hogs where the ham alone was like 35 pounds, you know what I mean? And it was big, American style, not squished flat, and they were able to cure it, but it it took a lot longer. But the issue is this in traditional dry curing, the one advantage a brine has is that the brine concentration is the brine concentration. Typically, the way that you work for uh a larger thing like a ham is you salt the outside, you pull it out, the inside still isn't salted, right?
+
+[38:50] So you do that at refrigeration temperature, so it's not gonna uh spoil. The inside's not stalted. You brush the salt off the outside and you go into what's called the equalization phase where the salt level equalizes, and that's another couple of weeks after the initial salting, right? So if you keep applying salt the entire time until you're cured through, the entire thing is incredibly oversalted. And so I don't have a lot of physical expertise, because I don't do it on kind of how to get that right on anything of that size.
+
+[39:21] So I would try to put it into the same conformation that you're gonna deal with and that other people have already dealt with, and then use their numbers because you don't want to spoil something that is kind of uh of you know of this uh magnitude. I would say when I was uh when I was a butcher in New Mexico and I did like uh dry aging and made a couple hams along the way there too. Um dry is way more forgiving than brine. Bryan like is just like so it can be so quick, and like when you're doing something you don't know about, like you just don't know the permeation rate, like on something like beef and that rate, especially with the fat content, like how do you look at the fat inside of that? Do you plug it or like how do you how do you pull out, you know?
+
+[40:03] Like I mean, typically you're the the but the plug is gonna be done later to see how the cure is done. You've already salted at that point. Yeah. So I look, I would I we're gonna I'm gonna need some outside expertise. So you know, maybe I'll ask Johnny uh what he thinks, but I would go dry and I would squish it flat.
+
+[40:20] If you look at the at the if you look at the larger pieces of the Sessina from Lyon, you'll see that all of them have been conformed down such that there's no one chunk that's as big around. Whether they dimple it in the middle or whether they squish it flat, they're all doing it, or go back to Speck, you can roll the whole thing out flat and then cure it relatively quickly. But I, you know, I'm getting the impression that's not the presentation you want. But uh I you know it's just gonna be difficult. The fact that nobody does it that I know of whole like that for a for a beef, like says something.
+
+[40:55] You know what I mean, right, Bobby? Wouldn't you say? I mean it could be that it's just not cost effective, nor probably the best technique for it. I don't know, I don't know. Uh but you know, hit me back up again and because I I'm interested in your problem.
+
+[41:09] Uh the Urban Pirate wrote in and said, please go if you need scientific papers, and I know there's a lot of people who listen to this who uh don't have access to scientific papers but would like them. And we've mentioned something like this before, but it's changed. You ready for this website, people, to get any scientific paper for free? HTTPS colon, forward forward. By the way, can you just say slash slash now?
+
+[41:33] Because people don't use backslashes. I like slash slash. Alright, right, whatever. Uh Sci-Hub, that's S-C I dash H-U-B dot TW. I don't know what country TW is, but dot TW.
+
+[41:47] You can assent you can essentially get any paper there. If if that site is down, because they move it around, just Google Sci Hub for a mirror to that site. And that came from the Urban Pirate. Thank you, Urban Pirate. And not I'm not advocating theft, by the way.
+
+[42:02] It's just if anyone who's part of a large institution can get this, and like I've always said, like one of the great things about living in New York is we have a public library where anyone can get access to great stuff. But the problem is our public library isn't what it used to be. They're closed the mid-Manhattan branch. I feel that like I I f I feel you should be able to access this stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:24] Yeah. Uh anyway, and they sent me uh on a hilarious uh idea, which is Anonymous email or anonymous anonymous email. You seen this? Anonymous email.me dot me, and you can send an anonymous email to anyone. Yeah.
+
+[42:39] So I'm gonna start just trolling people I hate with anonymous email.me. Yeah, I saw a really good meme the other day that was like libraries, a place that you can go get information for free, relax in a comfy chair, and not have to purchase anything. Shh, don't tell millennials. This episode is brought to you with support from Fairplate, a taste of Ireland in New York, taking place Saturday, March 9th at the Rag Trader. At Fairplate, you can sip and savor Irish whiskey, cheese, grass-fed beef, and more.
+
+[43:07] Tickets and information at F-A-R-E, P-L-A-T-E.com. Uh all right, we have if we have time. Do we have time? Do we have time? Do we have time?
+
+[43:17] A little bit? Yeah, sure. Okay, cool. By the way, Jay Schroeder, who you know from Chicago, who used to work uh with uh Rick Bayless, and then he opened what's the place? Cosa Santos now.
+
+[43:26] Yeah, yeah, name. It's the basement of a Kyoto. So uh he's coming out with a book, I think tomorrow. I came in, I think it dropped yesterday, actually. Really?
+
+[43:35] Called Understanding Mezcal. Now it's it's in our bar. He was graciously sent me a copy, but Jack and Bobby wanted me to leave it at the bar, so I haven't read it yet, because they want to read it. I did not say anything about leaving it at the bar, but I think Jack wanted Jack wanted to read it. Yeah.
+
+[43:51] Anyway. He also kindly sent us this delicious mezcal, but I was not able to find any information on it. Yeah. Yeah. It uh fermented in wood underground, distilled in copper and wood.
+
+[43:58] It's uh it's a cupriata chino uh from Michael. But that's all I could get out of it. Because I couldn't find the maker. The maker is Jose Inez Vieira, and I apparently the Vieira family is a big family of you know mezcaleros down there, but I don't know anything about it. But remember that he said this, it had all those fruit and berry hits in the in the back end.
+
+[44:22] Yeah. So maybe if he wants, he can come on and talk about his uh his new book at some point. We'll have the bar team back on and we'll all talk about it, but thanks for the book. I'm just saying if you want to send me your book, it was some some delicious mezcal or something. We appreciate it.
+
+[44:35] We do. Um But on the cocktail thing, Caesar from Seattle writes saying, Greetings, and Bobby, you'll like this. Recently a friend of myself were discussing how a dirty martini should be made or should not uh they describe their preferred martini as tasting like the Pacific Ocean, which considering that they live on the Gulf Coast caught me thinking, what would a Gulf of Mexico drink taste like, oil spills and all. We debated and somewhat agreed that it should be a tropical drink with a layer of Jaegermeister on top to simulate an oil slick. What do you think would accomplish this theme, thanks uh Caesar from Seattle?
+
+[45:10] Well, I mean you could just float a layer of olive oil on top. If you want to stay in the martini thing, even if it's a martini, so in order, I I don't understand, Caesar. Is the question what is the equivalent of a dirty mart? So if a dirty martini tasting of the Pacific is supposed to make you think of like Kumi oysters, right? Yeah.
+
+[45:27] And and so on the Gulf of Mexico, a dirty martini shouldn't be a martini at all. It should be more of a tropical tiki drink with an oil slick on top. I mean, you want an oil slick, all you gotta do is take some Nisso olives, dehydrate 'em, powder them, infuse them into your vodka, and then you have black vodka. There's your oil slick. Yeah, but but that's not actually providing a slick of sludge on the top.
+
+[45:44] By the way, Miss Noer. Miss Nomer, oil, gasoline and refined oil floats, but crude oil sinks. Which was actually the reason why, you know, the spill in the Gulf, one of the reasons to spill in the Gulf, or why Newtown Creek here in uh in in New York City is such a nightmare because the heavier stuff sinks straight to the bottom and kills out things forever. Uh you don't you don't even the people don't even realize you eat east east coast oysters all the way up in into Maryland and there's still oil slicks in the shells. You still see little deposits everywhere.
+
+[46:21] Yeah, I mean that's the thing. That's why I eat the northern oysters, baby. Cleaning up the uh Dave, we actually have uh the Urban Pirate on the line. Oh, Urban Pirate. Thanks for calling in.
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+[46:30] We actually have uh Hello? Oh, Urban Pirate. Whoa, I'm in the barrel, though. The pirate has me in a barrel. Uh quick question about vita preps.
+
+[46:40] Sure. Can you hear me? Yes Hello? Yes, we got you. Ah, okay.
+
+[46:47] Well, I can't hear you, but I'll just say my question. Um so I'm trying to decide between a vitaprep and a vitaprep three. And I can't figure out if the added horsepower is actually necessary. Okay. So does he want to dip nails in liquid nitrogen and then powder them?
+
+[47:06] I don't have a do we do we have what do we have at the bar? Do we have a three or do we have a No? I think we just have normal. Uh look, I mean, here's what is I don't know how much more of Vitapep 3 costs than a stand a standard Vitaprep. Uh you're not pulling three horsepower out of a wall socket.
+
+[47:26] Like I've got to. Right. There's not enough wattage. There's not enough wattage. So everybody kind of lies about their about the power that their products provide.
+
+[47:36] Now, that said, there is a website on the internet, I forget the name of it or the name of the person who ran it, where they actually did a bunch of real-world tests on how much energy was actually being put. They're using temperature rises and higher friction and lower friction items like simple syrup is to figure out how much wattage they could actually pull. And I think they might have done some ammeter tests, right? But strictly pulling amps out doesn't necessarily is not the same as how much power you're putting onto your product because the motors aren't 100% efficient, obviously. And they're what they said was that the original Vitapep actually gets fairly close to their ratings.
+
+[48:16] In other words, the original Vitapeps aren't heavily overrated in terms of uh what the power that they can uh develop is when they're blending. Now, if you're blending water, it doesn't matter how much power you have, your blades can't put that much energy into the water anyway. It's more the the the thing where a regular Vitapep is gonna bog down is purees, uh pestos, nuts, things like this. Things where the the blades can actually generate a lot of power against them. Uh now that said, I don't know what a th what a three horsepower quote unquote vita prep can do that a regular one can't because a regular vita prep can suck almost can it you can't get that much power out of the wall, as you said.
+
+[48:59] So I don't really know, but I will say this like if the Vitapep 3 is going to not cut out when it heats up as much, then that's going to be a better deal because if you're using in a commercial environment, if you're doing abusive things to your vita prep, like nuts. Yeah, you're not gonna blow out. Yeah, you're not gonna blow. Look, if it's gonna be on your counter, if you have cabinets, I would get the one that fits under your cabinets. Yeah.
+
+[49:28] Although I had a question about that. I assume that one has different slopes on the sidewall. Is that gonna unpack the efficiency of the bunding? Yes. I don't know how because I only have the tall one.
+
+[49:40] I built my shelves so that the standard Vitapep would fit under it. If that gives you an idea. Like, because I use this I use the standard uh Vitapep. Or the solution is you can just store the the um pitcher next to the Vitapep. It's the one problem the Vitapep has.
+
+[49:58] The other gripe I have with a lot of the new Vitapeps, Vitamix, rather, because they don't call it that anymore, is uh is they're now all electronic, and and you don't really have the old interface that the Vitapep uh used to have, and their their knobs aren't as uh sturdy as they used to be. Um why are these things? Even the analog knob is not analog anymore, it's a digital knob? I think so. My brother-in-law registered you know, after they got married for a Vitapep, and he was like, they sell Vitamix, they sell the Vitamix that has the program.
+
+[50:30] Should I buy it? I said, no. And he's like, but they also have the knobs. I'm like, no. He's like, but don't I also want the programs?
+
+[50:38] No. You know what I mean? Like, I was like, just get the one that's the most analogous possible. But I believe, and this is again, I'm talking out of my of out of my rear end here because I haven't studied them recently, but I believe, as of recently, I think they're all electronic under the hood, and that they just now have the appearance of being analog. But I can't say, I can't say with certainty that that's the truth.
+
+[51:01] And regarding the warranty, I I heard that the commercial warranty is voided if you use it at home, but I assume that because it's beefier component, I shouldn't worry about the warranty. Uh how are they gonna know you're using it at home? If you try to make a warranty claim and I'm not a business. Right. Uh maybe the you the the the funny thing at home that's worse than a restaurant.
+
+[51:22] The funny thing about it is is that the commercial one always cost more and had a shorter warranty because in fact the only difference used to be between the home version well you know 10 10 12 years ago the only difference between the home version and the not home version was that the commercial version cost more and had a worse warranty. Had the same motor had the same uh everything were different colors though. Uh maybe different different colors so I I don't know I should research I should go back to the stores and kind of look at it. Also you know though they might have changed their thing I saw on Amazon someone was selling uh one of the Vita preps now for like under $200. I think their price I think they they they go on sale more now than they used to go also don't don't ever be a free doesn't have any kind of sales reasonable pricing.
+
+[52:11] Don't be ever afraid to look at the refurbished ones too like refurbish I'm a huge fan of refurbished goods in general I uh uh most of the you know I I I haven't tested the three versus versus the other ones I say in a heavy duty commercial environment uh yeah go for it look everything with that thing is gonna be the tip speed of the blades at the at the thing that you're using it at. So for soups and stuff, if it gets to the same tip speed, you're gonna be uh you're gonna be okay. Yes, the Vita the Vitamix regular one will bog down in in certain scenarios, and for that you're gonna maybe want the the higher end one, but as a person of quality, just don't overload the pitcher. That's all you have to do. But oh, here's another fact that they don't necessarily tell you, but they should.
+
+[52:57] Vita the Vitamix runs most efficiently at high speed. So uh what you should do is it when you're ramping it up, you should ramp it up as quickly as possible and then put it in high. It's much more efficient in high than it is when it's in uh any of its intermediate modes. So if your Vitamix is uh overheating, like it's because you are not putting it in high counterintuitively. Thank you.
+
+[53:22] I have a quick follow-up on ham storage if there's time, otherwise I'll write it in. Sure. Well, what do you got? Let's see. I'll if they rip me off the air there.
+
+[53:32] It ain't no single hoda, but um I I it's still it's in the one of those black cloth bags. I assume it's vacuum packed under there. I've been storing it near the window. It's the winter right now. It has the bone in.
+
+[53:45] Do I need to be concerned about storage? No. No. No. If it's wrapped, you don't need to be concerned about storage.
+
+[53:52] What will happen is uh it won't age normally. It will still it will still age and against the vacuum packing, you will have to trim off the areas that are adjacent directly adjacent to the vacuum packing, just because they no vacuum packing is absolute and they will probably be somewhat oxidized, and so you'll have to just trim a little around where the packaging is. There might even be, depending on how it was done, some uh you know, if they didn't do it properly, there might be some mold in that area. But I've never had a problem with it. I've kept hams for a long, long time.
+
+[54:26] Dave, one last caller. Uh we have Jake from New Jersey asking about the bar and uh the whip creamer or the cream whipper cool Jake you're on the air Jake maybe he's not on anymore all right so back hey how are you doing man hey what's going on uh I've been listening to the backlog I hear you talk about uh EC a lot yeah so for Christmas my uh my wife just got me the um uh what is it the gourmet whip just uh the regular cream whipper right and I've been interested in doing um like a nitro cold brew coffee right um I stupidly thought that the regular nitrous chargers were uh were the right thing and they they clearly weren't since the nitrous colder is supposed to actually be not nitrous but just nitrogen N2. Um okay so um what are you trying to do with it you're just trying to increase the pressure them out with a nitro whip that they they sell actual N2 chargers and you're supposed to only use them in the the nitro whip whipper are you familiar with that at all? No I only use I only use nitrous oxy look here here's okay okay let's just back up for a second what do you there are two things you can be doing here right so if you're doing for instance i if if you're doing the the if you're trying to get that creamy head I have used it. Someone came by the bar with the nitro.
+
+[56:03] They're doing cocktails. Yeah, they were doing cocktails in the nitro rip and they're during the coffee. So the idea with nitro the idea with nitrogen, right, is that nitrogen is not very soluble in wall in liquids. So you are having you create lots of micro bubbles, but not any sort of effervescence. I don't want to call it carbonation because nitrous doesn't taste like CO2.
+
+[56:28] Yeah. Okay? But you're getting this kind of micro bubble nucleation, kind of micro texture, the equivalent that you would get out of like really frothy shaking, or that you might get out of uh like an espresso machine when the when when it's pulling a shot, right? Sure. And so this is why in a beer which also has CO2, they have they put nitrogen into it so you get this kind of micronucleation so that you get this like dense creamy head coming out as though you were as though you were gonna pull it out of a cask, right?
+
+[57:02] And so that's why beer and beer gas wants that high pressure, they want a higher pressure but not overcarbonated, and they want to create lot lots of little bubbles, so they want like a lot of immediate kind of pre like pressure to release, right? They'll use beer gas, which is a mixture of nitrogen and CO2. Now, I use nitrous oxide specifically because it is soluble, and I'm getting massive amounts of continuous and continual gas evolution rather than just a first. So when you're using nitrogen, as soon as you release the pressure, it's like pop, and that's it. And the texturization you get is the texturization that you get, along with the whipping effect of coming out of something that is whipping it high under pressure, right?
+
+[57:51] But you're not getting any lingering effervescence out of it. Does that make sense? Sure, yeah. Yeah, and you're not getting as much expansion in the product as you would if you had a soluble gas that was coming out of it at kind of a high rate. So it's a different thing.
+
+[58:08] Now, uh well, I don't know, I don't remember. What was the name of the company that used the nitro? Was it called nitro whip? I thought it was ZC. No, it's it's it's easy, but they they call it the nitro whip.
+
+[58:20] Yeah. Yeah. And uh my memory serves me, they made it so that the cartridges aren't cross-compatible, right? Yeah. Those freaking Austrians with their safety-minded stuff.
+
+[58:30] Uh I think it's you know for sure if they're actually not compatible, because they say not to use it, but I don't know if that's really true. I don't know. Uh they came by and demonstrated, but they didn't leave the unit in the bar. No. Okay.
+
+[58:45] But that said, you know, what is your fun? Like, I would just say, like, what is your function? Like, what what is it that why are you doing it? La Cologne uses nitrous. They do, yeah.
+
+[58:58] Um and I I like them for the first three steps, and then when the gas is gone, I'm like, this is just the regular coffee again. Right, but that's the thing. If you're doing if you so it if the if the beverage has an underlying texture or structure, and you just want to texturize it for the serve, right? Like people with Guinness want that head on the Guinness. Yeah.
+
+[59:19] Then you don't need constant production, and then something like nitrogen is gonna work because it's going to produce the effect of that. Yeah. If the beverage needs constant evolution to maintain its texture, then nitritus is a better choice. Yeah. But nitrous adds sweetness and nitrogen does not.
+
+[59:38] Yep. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have enough experience. So what do you think?
+
+[59:44] Is it is it safe enough to try it if I if I get the N2 charger and it fits? I don't believe it fits. I think I think I asked them and they said it doesn't. I can't say for certain. There's multiple safeties in a real uh you know, in the real EC things.
+
+[1:00:02] So I doubt that I knowing the knowing the the EC folks the way I do, uh if they actually thought it was a safety concern, then they would guarantee that they were not interchangeable somehow. Like they would change the size of the cartridge such that you could not do it. And because that's just the kind of thing they would do. You know what I mean? Sure.
+
+[1:00:25] Like, because they're they are extremely conscientious about that sort of thing. Alright, cool. Thanks. And then uh one one other unrelated question. Oh, what do you got?
+
+[1:00:36] Um I'm real interested in uh in your bar existing conditions. Okay. I hope everyone is, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:43] Yeah. So I have a uh a life-threatening allergy to nuts, and I know that you guys use um some liquors and some things like Borja that that have nuts in them. How much of a cross-contamination risk do you think there would be if I was to you know order drinks that obviously didn't have those things? Right now, the only nut containing product we have in the bar is Frangelica. Yep.
+
+[1:01:06] So, you know, uh, and so the the tins, if you told someone, they would uh I guess double wash the tins out. We could even we have extra tins we could even go pull. Yeah. But uh but Frangelico never goes into the mixing glasses, at least, you know, not on the r not on a daily basis. Uh the frangelico is kept with an open speed pour, but it's not uh and that's not a drink that people order commonly.
+
+[1:01:38] We don't currently have any orjaz on the menu, and our kitchen is nut free. Awesome, thanks. For now, we might make an orjan in the future, but for now, stu come by soon. Come by soon. And our and our waffle press has never had a nut in it yet.
+
+[1:01:54] Nope. Yeah. Popcorn. All right, thanks a lot, guys. Cool.
+
+[1:01:57] So on the way out, Bobby. Thanks, Bobby, for coming. Thanks, G for doing a thing. Uh well, we you have something we wanted to push, right? Yeah, we gotta talk about the chef series.
+
+[1:02:05] Oh my god! Yeah. That's why you're here. That's why I'm here. So existing conditions, we have a chef series coming up.
+
+[1:02:10] So we could talk more later about what the equivalent of a dirty martini for the Gulf of Mexico is. Yes. If you actually want it to be a martini, I think olive oil on the top, and you can blacken it up with a few. Yeah, I was gonna say, look up uh Michelle Bra black olive oil. Old technique, uh that doesn't get enough cred.
+
+[1:02:27] Really beautiful. That's your answer 100%. Alright, so existing conditions is doing a chef series. Where can you find it, Bobby? Uh you can find it on our Instagram page, on our Facebook page.
+
+[1:02:36] And we're exconditions.com. Yes. And so what do we have coming up very soon? Our first one is Brian Fisher. Well, second, shorty did one.
+
+[1:02:43] That's it. Second. So our second one is Brian Fisher. Uh he's actually coming out to do a dinner at the James Beard House with uh Noah Sandoval, uh Justin Carlisle and himself. Uh and he's gonna grace our presence this coming Sunday with a five course tasting menu.
+
+[1:02:57] Uh so that's like five days from now. Five days from now, yeah. And we have plenty of tickets still available. We're gonna be doing some beverage pairings alongside of our team. Um it's gonna be really awesome.
+
+[1:03:08] He's running currently a restaurant in Chicago called Entente. Um, formerly of a restaurant called Schwa. Really great guy. Uh I never got to go to Schwa. It's still there.
+
+[1:03:17] You can still go. It's delicious. I don't get to go out, I don't travel much. Well, we'll have to go to Chicago soon. Uh no, so so tell them what the deal is.
+
+[1:03:25] What are they getting? Um well it's a five-course menu. Five courses people. Yeah. Uh wait, four courses?
+
+[1:03:32] Five courses. Five. Five courses. Three courses? Five courses.
+
+[1:03:36] Five courses for how much? Uh it's a hundred dollars plus tax and gratuity, and then we have a fifty dollar beverage pairing. All be told. Um I don't think we should sell it without the beverage pairing. It's too much of a hassle to worry about whether the people got the beverage pairing or not.
+
+[1:03:50] Yeah, I agree. But um, just don't want to give people the option. But I feel like for New York style tasting menus, uh, this is gonna be one of the better values you'll see. Like, look up his food. Why the hell do we give good values?
+
+[1:04:01] We should just rip people off instead of giving them such a good value all the freaking time. We're just dumb dums. We're the stupidest people on earth. We just give people good stuff for not that much money. But don't miss out.
+
+[1:04:11] They're going, they're gonna do the the James Beard House on the Friday or the Saturday. It's Friday. Friday, and then on Sunday they're gonna come in for a one night only, and then we're gonna do a whole series of these. Who else do we have coming up? Well, so it's this coming Friday, or I'm sorry, this coming Sunday.
+
+[1:04:25] Um, Brian will be here. They're gonna do their dinner on Friday. Uh, I think it's Friday, yeah. And then Sunday, Monday, Justin Carl, one of the other chefs is doing a dinner with him. He uh has a restaurant in Milwaukee called Ardent, and it used to be a thing where he called into you quite a bit.
+
+[1:04:42] Yeah, he's been a huge fan for a long time. Um he would do a ramen pop-up on Friday and Saturday nights, and he called it Red Light Ramen. So basically, when they would turn the red light on the window, people would know that the ramen bar was open. So it would it would, you know, change and morph from this fine-ending restaurant into a ramen bar. And it became so successful that they were able to buy the brick and mortar next door, turn it into an actual ramen bar.
+
+[1:04:59] He then uh a couple years ago got married. His wife's from I believe it's Guadalajara. Uh their mother joined him up to Milwaukee, and they've since opened uh the laughing taco tackeria. Um I think they're already at four locations now. And like we're doing ramen in our place, right?
+
+[1:05:19] We're doing ramen on Sunday, then Monday we're doing tacos. Wait, so when when is that one? So that is uh not this Sunday, but the following Sunday Monday. All right, so go on our Instagram or go on our website and buy tickets to these because they're fun and unfortunately for me they're also good value. Yeah.
+
+[1:05:36] Um Justin Justin Carlisle's the ramen and the uh taco night will be a la carte. We're doing some features on some of our own food. Uh we're making some stuff, we'll have some drink specials. We meaning Bobby wants to do a New Mexico night from when he lived in New Mexico. Well, I mean, I I hope that will happen at some point.
+
+[1:05:53] But yeah, we'll be doing drinks for those nights. Uh, you know, beverage praying for Brian. Um, but the a la carte nights will be contributing some food, uh, you know, showcasing some of our beverages that we like at our bar, showcasing some nice mescals, we'll be specials. It's just supposed to be a really fun night, you know. Get people that are in the industry to come for uh a Sunday, Monday, see the bar.
+
+[1:06:13] We'll on a la carte nights that you know, obviously have like uh the full bar available to you. So come come get some drinks. We're also launching some new drinks this coming week. We have a lot of stuff coming on the menu. So existing conditions.
+
+[1:06:27] See you next week. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:06:58] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:07:23] Just click on the beating heart at the top right hand side of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This piece was brought to you by Roberta. Roberta's pizza.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. This year, we're celebrating 10 years of food radio.
+
+[0:18] For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more. It's been 10 years, and we're just getting started. Find us at heritage radio network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arl, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know whenever to about one o'clock for Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brrrrr Brooklyn.
+
+[0:51] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, and we got Matt back in the booth. How you guys doing? Good. So glad to be back. Yeah?
+
+[0:58] Yeah. Uh so what were you doing last week? Were you having fun? I was having fun. I was eating everything I could find in Charleston.
+
+[1:05] Yeah, yeah. What do you have? Uh uh I had some pickled shrimp. That was new to me. I had some shad row, that was new to me.
+
+[1:12] Whoa, whoa, shad row, you've never had shad row before? No. Where'd you grow up? Outside of Massachusetts uh outside of Boston. Okay.
+
+[1:18] Well, you know, okay, listen. They have that up there. Like, I don't want anyone on earth to think that Shad Row is it might be a Charleston thing, but just so everyone knows, that is also part of the entire East Coast Heritage, from the bottom to the top. So we'll not let them claim it. I mean, they can claim whatever their version of it.
+
+[1:39] Was it was it was it parsley, butter, bacon or what? Uh I don't know. It was like sliced and fried. It had the consistency of liver, it was in scrambled eggs. It was very strange.
+
+[1:53] Okay. Usually, when uh, you know, the old way, this is the old way, as they say in uh Indiana Jones. Um, you know, we would you'd make sure that the shad row stays whole. Now, this is why I guess you don't do it in restaurants, because it would be expensive, right? And then you cook bacon, and then with butter, you just you you you hit it just to set it all the way through.
+
+[2:17] Parsley, butter, bacon, done. You eat it like uh, you know, the whole shad row is is like uh, well, it's shaped like a rose sack. How do you explain that, Nastasi? It's like a smile. Yep.
+
+[2:29] It's like a smile, it's like an emoji smile, and it's about, you, I don't know, like six inches long. It looks like eight. I don't know. Anyway, uh they are delicious. But uh I've said this before on the program.
+
+[2:42] I hope I don't miss it this year. I missed it last year. Shad, which is uh, you know, uh a fish that comes back in um it comes back in in the springtime to, you know, to do its uh kind of reproductive business. And on the way in, it doesn't uh eat, right? And yet, for some reason, it will hit a lure, right?
+
+[3:04] But it does like, and and I don't think anyone knows why the shad, they're just pissed off, I guess. I don't know why they because they're not eating why they would hit a lure, but they're relatively easy to catch as they run back in the streams and and the when they run back into the streams, I think depends on the local temperature. So the shad runs are earlier down south than they are up north. And there's a there's a nice good shad run that goes near, you know, where where I go up on the on the Connecticut River. Shad meat, shad meat, which it used to be you wouldn't even ever get the shad meat.
+
+[3:35] You would just get the shad row. Shad meat, I think, is incredibly, it's incredibly delicious, I think. I love it. Uh it's one of those kind of like it's on the oily side but mild tasting, so you can grill it and it doesn't get all dry and disgust. Don't you hate when you get a dried uh grilled fish and that it's like dry as hell?
+
+[3:53] That's like I love stripers, but you know, some people like like a like kind of an overcooked striper, but it gets because striper is so meaty and chunky, it kind of gets weird, I think, when you overcook it. I don't like it. Do you like that? No. No.
+
+[4:05] Whereas like some oily fish like bluefish can take a pounding on a grill and still be good. As long as you put on the mayonnaise. Don't forget the oil gets out the oil. Remember that? No.
+
+[4:15] Mayonnaise on the Oh, Jesus, never listens. She never listens, you know, ever. Uh but I think shad is incredibly delicious, but also extremely difficult to bone because they have an extra set of Y bones that go out. So there's very few people. You can go on the Google on YouTube and uh you can see people who show the magic way of filleting a shad.
+
+[4:37] Because a filleted shad is great. I'm not a fan of the there's another way some people do it where they just hack the crap out of the bones, the way that they do in Japan on those pike eel things. I that's garbage. There is a way to like the amazing thing about a well-filleted shad is that when the shad is is laying flat, it looks like a fillet, and then when you pick it up, it kind of like spreads open like like a jigsaw puzzle, and you can see all of the slices that were made into it without cutting through the skin to get the bones out. And they are a site to they're a sight to have go find it.
+
+[5:10] If you live anywhere near the East Coast, go find yourself some fresh shad that has been properly boned, cook that sucker up on a grilled tummy, you don't love it. Put some mayonnaise on it before you put on the grill. Everyone wants you to talk about what you did last night. Uh everybody meaning you. No, no, no.
+
+[5:25] Hold on, listeners. So what else do? No, they don't. If they did, if they did, they would call her right in on the chat room. They've been calling all morning saying, ask Dave about what we did last night.
+
+[5:33] Matt, you know. Matt, you know. Would I lie to you, Dave? Yes. That's true.
+
+[5:38] I got a bunch of messages from people saying, please talk about what happened on the radio show. Alright, let me tell you. So, what else did you have in uh in uh Charleston? Uh oh my God. Um a ton of barbecue.
+
+[5:50] I had a I had a rib that was heavenly, and I don't normally eat meat, so that was interesting. Yeah. Um was it heavenly, or is it just because you don't normally eat meat, you're like, damn, I should eat more meat. No, I think it was really good. So you're saying it's not just like, it's like uh I remember the time that I lost a bet here on the on the air and had to eat raw vegan for a week.
+
+[6:13] The first piece of meat I had after that, I was like, God, damn. No, because we were sitting there and having like a pile of all the meats, and the rib was really the only one where I was like, yeah, okay, this is worth it. Alright, so now what are we talking about, Nastasia? What did you do last night? So Nastasia Lopez, uh, you might be familiar with her as the hammer.
+
+[6:34] By the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. She, I don't know how the I honestly I don't know how this happens, but she is on the somehow on the gala committee for the food and finance high school. I don't even know how she's connected to the food and finance high school, to be honest. Uh and so she's like, hey Dave, we're doing a cocktail.
+
+[6:59] I says, Okay. So we make a cocktail and then tell them what happens just to ask them when we show up. We take the subway with the cocktail. Oh, Dave's back. First of all, for those of you that do events in New York City, you'll you'll know what I'm talking about.
+
+[7:13] Events, they the load in for an event is always, and I mean always, during rush hour. And so, and and they're always in locations where people want to go. It's always like, where's the event? Of course, it's in the financial district. Or of course, it's in midtown.
+
+[7:32] What's it called? Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like the trade center. Anyway, what? Well, they do the trading.
+
+[7:38] Oh, oh, it's stock exchange. It's like, so like they're all nightmare places to get in and out of on via like normal things. So you can't, like, if the Uber, first of all, not only is it like surge pricing. Remember, in New York City, unlike LA or a bunch of other places, like, Ubers are very expensive here compared to other places in the in the country that I've experienced because I guess because they can get it, and B, in order to drive an Uber here, you still need to have what's called a TNL C a livery license. Um, you know, it's so it's not just like people who are like, you know what, maybe I'll do this for a couple of hours.
+
+[8:10] It's like people who are, you know, livery drivers. So it costs more here. And so, but and then they surge price like a mother in New York City, and you're just gonna be in that car for like 45 minutes, stuck in traffic, trying to go like not even that many blocks. So I'm like, dealt with it, Nastasia. We're gonna we're gonna go on a subway.
+
+[8:30] And she's like, I don't want to go on this subway. And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? I'm carrying all the crap anyway. I've got a case of freaking tequila on my back. I got a case of tequila in a bag around my arm, plus all of the mixers and everything like that.
+
+[8:42] So I'm going up and down the stairs. Nastasia accidentally guides us to her doctor's office instead of to the event. So I lost my mind, as you can imagine. So we're lugging this stuff around. And the mess of the thing is, we designed the cocktail, so we didn't even need to take delivery of the tequila because we had made like an old fashioned and all the work, it was like cordial, you know, spins all clarified cordial.
+
+[9:05] You know, the concept was it was flavors of a margarita in an old-fashioned format. So like they assured us there would be cold draft ice, and that you know, we would show up and we would do it. So anyway, so I'm lugging all this crap, which I didn't need the lug because the the liquor could have gotten delivered directly to the to the event. Instead, we take it to her doctor's office. The doctor didn't want the stuff, so then we had to walk over to where the event was.
+
+[9:28] I'm dying, my back is breaking off, my arms are like, you know, killing me. And we show up and what? And they're like, what are you guys doing here? And then by the way, I love all these people. I know, I know all the people.
+
+[9:44] Like, and uh, they're like, we printed a sign. And they're like, if they finally found out that it indeed we're supposed to be there, and they had printed a sign with the recipe on it. I was like, and it was on a table tent, you know, one of those plastic table tents. And I was like, because Nastasi and I never spend any time getting our table all fancy. Do you see Porch Light by the way?
+
+[10:01] Yeah. Nick Bennett, he had a fan, super fancy table. You know why? They care. Because they're no, it's smart.
+
+[10:07] We care, we're just dumb. Yeah. Anyway, so like, you know, if you do events, just if you don't have the time, if you're like, you know, Nastasian like myself, and you know, everything's done at the last second, get someone else to just bring some party favors for the table to make it look like that. Well, we didn't even have a table. Well, yeah, but we thought we had a table.
+
+[10:23] So they show up in our table tent. I'm like, uh, that's printed sideways. And they're like, no, you could turn it the other way. And they did it like three times. Every time they did it, it fell over.
+
+[10:31] I'm like, no, you can't. And then they're finally like, oh yeah, um, um, uh, yeah, so they said that the bartenders already had our drinks. Oh, yeah, that was the first thing they said. I was like, they're like, the bartenders, yeah. All three bars have your drinks and they're ready to pour it.
+
+[10:45] I was like, what was that stuff I carried on my back the whole way here? Why am I breathing? Why do I exist? Why do I keep sucking air in? You know what I mean?
+
+[10:55] And uh then they determined, oh well, they don't have it yet. So then we had to go, instead of making it, right? We had to go in the back and batch it, which it which is normal. So I was like, okay, okay, fine. So I'm not gonna get to pour it.
+
+[11:06] Nastasia's not gonna get to pour it, they're gonna pour it. Turns out they were fine. They did a good job. But in general, Nastasi and I are like, why do we, you know, what's the point of showing up if we're not personally talking to people and pouring stuff? So they'd assured us.
+
+[11:20] This is how it happens in life. You have to be prepared. They assured us that there would be cold draft ice. If someone tells you there's cold draft ice in an ex uh at an event, assume it will not happen, right? And so, like, you know, I was like, I'd already been like, okay, I'm not gonna insist on like a big cube.
+
+[11:35] I'm just not gonna do it. We built the drink to work with cold draft, and then the guy, poor guy, the poor bar manager, he felt real bad about it. He was like, We only have hotel ice. And I'm like, oh my god, oh hotel ice. And so then they I was like, Can you bring me some?
+
+[11:54] They brought it. We I like I almost cried. I almost cried. I was like, what the hell? Yeah.
+
+[12:00] Well, it ended up being fine. I is because the thing is, honestly, like once you've realized that, you know, that it's gonna be the way it is, you're just like, okay. Yeah. No choice. No problem.
+
+[12:11] No problem. You know what I mean? But we ended up having a good time. Yeah, so uh Quest Love came and spun uh some music, which was nice. Check out my Instagram.
+
+[12:19] Actually, you should put on your Instagram because you have more followers. I don't know how to do it. I'll do it. I don't know how to do it. I'll do it.
+
+[12:25] Give me your phone. No, no, no. And then there's not gonna be no images of me or uh videos of it. You know this. Well, check out my stories to see Dave Dancing.
+
+[12:36] So uh it was the uh the we actually I think we used the one with quinine in it, the uh the uh lime cordial, uh the acid-corrected lime cordial that we use at uh existing conditions. It was three eighths of that into uh anejo tequila with uh orange bitters and salt, and the idea is that you know it flavors of margarita in the in the in the style of an old fashioned. It's good. Yeah, yeah. It was okay.
+
+[13:06] And for those of you that are ever gonna do bar events, please don't be don't be like I was for you know for the first oh I don't know, ten years that people asked us to do drinks at events, right? All the way back to the French Culinary Institute. So at least ten years. For the first ten years, I was like, we're gonna do something. We're gonna do something like they've never seen before.
+
+[13:26] We're gonna we're gonna carbonate live, we're gonna, we're gonna do shaking drinks, we're gonna do nitro modeling, we're gonna we're gonna And then one time Thomas Keller came up to you and said, Are you stupid? Yeah, are you what are you stupid? And I was like, you know? Yeah, real I'm real dumb. So you do all this stuff, right?
+
+[13:42] And then something always goes wrong. It's never perfect anyway. And and it's just a complete heartbreak. And then someone always comes up and was like, Do you have just the straight booze? And you're like, Yeah.
+
+[13:56] And you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's like if you really want to, like, whatever. Anyway, so you know, recently I've realized you gotta bulletproof stuff for advance, which is what we did, which is why it ended up okay. Pump and dump, pump and dump, pump and dump.
+
+[14:08] Whatever. Whatever. The future. Remember, uh the older you get, the shorter your future is. Wow.
+
+[14:18] And on that note, we have a caller. Yeah, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Devin calling in again. Had a quick question for you. Uh, could I get your thoughts on the different types of salts that the uh enthusiast home cook should keep around?
+
+[14:32] Uh you mean like like okay, are you talking about like the form factors or like weird, weird salts? Uh mixture of both. Because I got like the regular uh diamond crystal kosher salt, I have my curing salts because I do some meat curing, but beyond that, I really don't have anything in particular, and it seems like there's just so many options available right now. D did you uh were you aware of the internet hoax where they said diamond crystal is going to be discontinued? I'm aware of that.
+
+[14:59] I looked into the uh Himalayan pink salt and Himalaya sounds kind of romantic, but it sounds like where it actually comes from really isn't so. So I was just looking for some clarity on kind of your thoughts on that kind of stuff. So my opinion, which is uh, you know, as you probably know, uh I'm you know, I'm kind of a kind of a curmudgeon. And so uh, you know, like I people should use salt if like specific salts if it makes them feel good, you know, to do it. But most of the time any of the strange salts, unless you are going to experience the texture of it, I you know, I don't see that much of a of a taste difference until you're getting into situations where there's a large proportion of the um of the other minerals present, there's not gonna be too uh in my opinion, there's not gonna be too much of a taste difference.
+
+[15:50] So I choose my salt almost exclusively on its texture. Now I'm not talking about there's hyper-engineered salts, right? I don't even know if they're selling it. I don't think they they don't sell it to to you know people like us, but industrially they make these hollow salts, and those hollow salts are interesting because they have the salt impact of large salt crystals but contain less salt because your tongue registers your tongue registers uh that it has like this you know big big salt thing, it doesn't dissolve in right away, so it provides that. So if you're interested in lowering your sodium, that's interesting.
+
+[16:24] I'm not interested in lowering my sodium though. So if I want the impact of salt, I will add salt. Now, diamond crystal, which you have, is of course all cook's choice uh when it comes to kosher because it doses well, much better than Morton's. I think the average person who doesn't cook doesn't understand that Morton's kosher, how like hard to dose Morton's kosher salt is compared to diamond, and how much denser Morton's is, and so this is why when people hate someone's recipe and say it's too salty, they you know they probably use the wrong salt. And furthermore, this is why salt typically you should do by weight, unless you're dosing, and why most cooks specifically write diamond kosher.
+
+[17:03] Now, for many years, you know, if someone gave me some fun salt, I would use it, and it's sh for sure true that you know, certain things like truffles. What? Except truffle salt. Do you use truffle salt if somebody gives it to you? I well, I don't think I have any.
+
+[17:18] Do you have a lot of truffle salt as well? I have yeah. That's been given in like bags. Does it give you the actual aroma of truffles? Yeah.
+
+[17:26] Most of these salts don't provide uh, like I say, uh I mean, if it's truffle salt, I mean it's got a lot of aroma on it's gonna probably provide aroma. But uh I think malden is worth the textural hit that you get on it, right? If you cook with Malden, either you're made of money, you're a freak show or you ran out of your regular salt because there's no point in cooking with it. Um the fleur de cell, I enjoy fleur de cell. Um I enjoy having a you should have good pretzel salt around if you make pretzels or do baked things because it sticks very nicely uh to things.
+
+[17:56] So I you know, you know, I wouldn't use something like kosher salt for for pretzels. Um so I would have pretzel salt, I would have malden. If you like fleur de cell, I would have fleur de cell, I would have diamond kosher, and then the rest of it, like unless you can see it. So like if you're let's say you're doing a bread service, right? And you're gonna put bread out along with, you know, depending on what kind of person you are, oil or butter or both, and then you wanna put out a dish of salt, which by the way, I think is a good idea.
+
+[18:23] Even if the butter is salted. If definitely if you use unsalted butter, put out a dish of salt. There, you know, some of the some of the interesting salts uh are nice because they're visually appealing, right? And so you're getting a visually appealing thing to go with your um to go with your stuff, and I think that's kind of worth it. But even in sprinkling, most of the times you can't see the color of a salt, depending on unless you're putting it over something that's you know white.
+
+[18:52] Um I've had some smoked salts that actually come through in use and you know they're interesting, but most smoked salts I don't think are salt uh smoky enough to really add the punch that I want versus other ways of getting smoke into things. So I'm a I'm a pretty simple guy when it comes to salt. Now, when you're start talking about adding other salts, right, especially to things like liquids, they do indeed change uh the flavor. But the the you know the the way that they do is you know very complicated. And I've never I've never, for instance, been like, you know what I'm gonna sprinkle over this meat?
+
+[19:27] Some magnesium chloride. It's just never come up I've done it in waters but I've never used it for cooking I've used Saratoga water uh they you know not the stuff that you can buy in a blue bottle but you know the the stuff that we get out of the ground has a lot of crazy minerals in it and I've never used it for cooking but I could try I could try although then I'd have to go get a lot more of it I don't feel like I've been very helpful but I don't think he's there anyway. There you have it my name is Brandon Boy co-owner of Roberta's a super duper awesome place Robert's is a very very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. We're also super awesome thank you Heritage now we have some stuff did you figure out where it came from someone sent us some stuff I'll read the caption of so a listener his name is his Instagram name is M-A-C-K-L-I-Nastasia is sitting literally as far away from the microphone as she can get and still be in the room yep all right so who is the who is it from and it it's not like this is the first time she's ever been on this program people how many years have you been doing this Nastasia I don't know eight a million million years cultivates her own radio style yeah her own radio style is like you know also I got hit by lie like Dave so now we're double lie double what what would you say uh yeah well Nastasia Nastasia was going it's pretty baller. It was pretty stupid.
+
+[21:02] I mean, what I did was stupid. Oh, come on. Someone says, What is this? I taste it in a kitchen. Not so crazy.
+
+[21:09] Nastasia pours concentrated lye-based detergent. That was a paint spill. Yeah, but how why would you think concentrated detergent would help with it? And why would you think that that would be good for that? I just was frantic.
+
+[21:26] I don't know. Anyway. First of all, on the sidewalk, people, and you don't even own the sidewalk. Yeah, but. You're pouring to whatever.
+
+[21:34] So she pours it on her, and then she's like, you know what? Something's burning. But I didn't think that. No, but get this. Didn't rinse her foot.
+
+[21:45] Yeah. Didn't rinse her foot. Comes back to me a day later. I look up on the internet for like what to do about caustic uh, you know, caustic chemical burns. Chemical burns from caustic things.
+
+[21:58] And it's, you know, there is not one Google hit that you can find, right? That says what to do after you've left said caustic thing on your person for 24 hours. Because no one has done this before. It's so dumb. Well I know.
+
+[22:20] What's the like I didn't know it was lower? What's the scenario? So here's what happened. I was in the desert, and I spilled something. My car broke down, and I spilled something, and I dumped this detergent on me, realized it was caustic, and then because I was in the desert and my car was broken down, there was no water to rinse it off for 24 hours.
+
+[22:41] That's the only scenario. Yeah, really stupid. Nastasia was like, well, I already took my shower today, so I guess I could have, you know, I'll wait till tomorrow to rinse this off. You know what I mean? Real dumb.
+
+[22:52] Oh, I know. Literally, no, no Google hits on this. Um, how did this work out when you tasted the lie? That's a lie. Well, that was pure lie.
+
+[23:02] First of all, I think uh back to Nastasi, so like please don't use your concentrated detergent. So you gotta remember a lot of us in restaurants are using what's called uh low temperature, uh low temperature uh what's the word dishwashers, right? Because they're more energy efficient, and you know, you don't have to have huge power boosters, which is so for a commercial dishwasher to run at high temperature, you need to eat an intensely large supply of super hot water, which takes very large kind of either boilers or electric or electric heating units to to boost the temperature up to where you need to be for that, right? So they're they take a lot of power, a lot, right? And so most people, at least I know in New York, they use chemical, right?
+
+[23:45] So you can use one of a number. You can use Eco Lab, you can use AutoClore, you can whatever you do. Ecologically, ecologically is what you but the problem is is that those detergents, right? Because they still need to break stuff down on a commercial level, they typically use things that'll break down fats and proteins, which hey, base does that, you know, not like the Bootsy Collins base, like base like lie, like alkaline base. And so those concentrated things that come in the bottle, you're really not supposed to crank those suckers open and dump them on you.
+
+[24:14] If you look, there's a little peristaltic pump on your commercial dishwasher. And when it puts the detergent in for your whole freaking load, how long does it run, Nastasi? It goes like this. Wee wee weep, and that's it. Out of that little tube.
+
+[24:28] And nostasi opens up a gallon. How long is that gallon last you? I don't know. Oh, yeah. Long time.
+
+[24:35] On constant running. Yeah. In a commercial environment, and dumps it on your leg. Don't mess around with those detergents, people. Seriously.
+
+[24:44] Yeah. Seriously. You know, it Nastasi's like, but it says it's like ecologically friendly and not toxic. Pure sodium hydroxy. Yeah, well, it's not pure, but like it is ecologically friendly in small quantities diluted in gigundous quantities of water.
+
+[24:58] Anyways. So uh I had lye, going back to pretzels, in the you knew it as soon as you put it in your mouth. So, first of all, as I've said before, label everything in your kitchen. I'll say this again. Label everything in your kitchen.
+
+[25:15] Especially if it's poisonous. Label everything in the kitchen. And when I opened it, I don't know what it is. When I opened it, I knew there was like something wrong because lye looks evil. What do I mean looks evil?
+
+[25:27] Like when we opened it. It moves. It moves. It it like it like for some reason, like it built up static. Yeah.
+
+[25:34] Unlike salt. Like salt doesn't ever build up static, right? It was it was almost jumping out of the damned core container to try to get me. Somehow, because we were cleaning everything up, I didn't think about it. I was like, but I don't know.
+
+[25:47] So I licked my finger, stick it, stick it on the thing, which also you shouldn't do. And stick it on the thing, and I put it directly on my tongue, and instantly it was like just like complete overload. You were like, I'm going to the hospital, go take care of my kids. Don't call Jenny. Yeah, I was like, ah I was like, ah I ran in and I just start throwing water in my mouth.
+
+[26:11] Like not swallowing anything. Because like basically my face under like rinsing it off. You saw the hole that was in my tongue. There's a if yeah, the blog isn't a porn site anymore. There's a photo of it.
+
+[26:21] Yeah. Maybe even if it's a porn site, maybe they kept that shot. Maybe they didn't know what it was and they kept that shot. They're like, you know. You know, more and more interesting, but you know, gonna put this picture of his tongue up.
+
+[26:32] You know what I mean? Like whoever hijacked it and turned it to a porn site. We'll keep that one. All the stuff about fish killing. Okay, wait, the ciders.
+
+[26:42] Alright, yeah. So what's up with the ciders? Uh so the guy's name is M underscore A underscore C underscore K underscore L underscore I underscore N. Can you just remove the underscores and read it? Who the hell Macklin.
+
+[26:55] Okay, thank you. At Novelson and I just finished our first Saison apple cider. They call it Pau Gasol, name for the Spanish Laker. The Spanish what? Laker.
+
+[27:08] L-A-K-E-R. Laker meaning basketball player? No, it's lowercase. Anyway. Oh, wait, yeah, he is a Laker.
+
+[27:15] Okay. Yeah, but it's not capitalized. All right. We used at Fair Hills Farms Seconds. More batches coming.
+
+[27:22] I am starting a collaborative natural foods brand as a platform for projects like this at lovely. And he dropped this off at the bar and he wants us to taste it. Alright, open it up. We'll taste it. It's chilled.
+
+[27:34] Somebody's calling you. Alright, caller. You're on the air. No. Oh, well, actually, there is there is a caller on the air.
+
+[27:39] Hey, look at the shot from Norfolk. Hey, how you doing? I'm well. Um, I was wondering if you had any suggestions for best practices in cooking venison steaks. Ooh, well, uh, this is uh wild or uh or raised.
+
+[27:54] I'll touch it. Yeah, wild, and then I was given they he didn't give me any information about the cut, just for uh probably inch and a quarter, inch and a half, thick steaks. Yeah, I mean the main issue with uh most venison is that if you overcook it, it can go dry. Uh it can go dry fairly quickly. Um so I would low temp it.
+
+[28:17] But you you don't know you you said you didn't know what cut it was? Right. Can you do does it look anything like any beef cut you know of? Like what's the size of it? Does it have marbling in it?
+
+[28:27] Is it from a larger piece of meat or does it look more like it came from like a loin or a rib area? It looks like it might be back strapped. So but it's got a good amount of meat in it, and like it's got a so you say it's got a large fat cap, but it's got like a l- it's got like a a good eye of meat on it. Yeah, definitely. Okay.
+
+[28:47] And uh how many pieces you have? Four. Four. Um but you don't know how old it was. I mean the fact of the matter is when something gets uh at least when this in Nastasia and our in our tests, is that um older meat tends to cook differently.
+
+[29:07] I would low in other words, we're you're gonna go low temp. I would go low temp on it, right? And then do a sear. The question is what temperature, right? And so um I mean, and that really depends on kind of what the cut is.
+
+[29:21] Uh in general, when I'm doing um steaks like that, I'll do them somewhere between uh somewhere in the range of fifty-four to fifty-five Celsius. Uh, and then pull them out and then and then sear them off. You just don't want to you don't want to overcook them. Matt, see if anyone on the uh what's it called on the message thing uh does a lot of work with venison and can give me some stuff. But uh, you know, when I usually do it, I'm doing it at those at those kind of uh lower lower temperatures.
+
+[29:54] I even do when I'm doing um I would do that. And and you are do you need to feed four people or can you cook one eat it and then cook the other three no I do need to feed four people we uh prematurely invited some friends for dinner yeah yeah I would I would do them at 55 uh let them ride through uh for I mean it so I mean it in the absence of any knowledge I would do it like I would do a ribeye and and I would do a ribeye by hitting 55 for about 45 minutes and then dropping the temperature to like 52 uh you know let it ride for an you know another couple of hours uh um to to make sure that if you can tenderize it you'll tenderize it a little bit and a lot's gonna depend on how old it is but if you keep it at 55 it'll toughen up and get a little more um the the muscle that you'll tenderize the collagen aspect of it but you'll tend to toughen the muscle muscle fibers more I mean can you look at it can you look at it and see whether you have a large boundary of like are it is is the is the grain fiber is it okay look back up I'm trying to be more coherent if you are looking at a piece of meat and you can see large kind of grain boundaries right around the different um like bundles of muscle fibers right then you're dealing with something that's kind of more more collagen rich and in those kind of environments uh a good pre salt letting it sit around will break up the that kind of uh the bundles the collagen that lies around the bundles and will in fact tenderize the collagen aspect of the meat, even though the muscle fibers themselves will be tougher because they'll take on more of a cured texture. Okay. So people who are cooking meats that are uh more collagen-y and you know you know more akin to the kind of tougher cuts, will find that they get what seems to be a more tender result with copious pre-salting than getting the salt off and then cooking as normal. If it is a finer fibered meat, right?
+
+[31:58] So the ultimate fine fibered meat is filet, right? Like the filet, you know, or or even like the next close, something like a ribeye. Finer textured meats like this that don't have a lot of kind of uh bundles of uh the c you know collagen bundles where the the different muscle fibers are grouped together. These ones, the effect of salting is unhelpful and makes the meat from a texture standpoint and makes the meat feel firmer and therefore overcooked. So if you look at the meat kind of on a dry, look at it on an angle, and if you're seeing kind of large grain boundaries, you know, in you know, in between that look kind of like bundles, almost like you know, like you would see in a cooked pot roast.
+
+[32:38] If you can see that in the kind of the raw cross section, then that piece of meat will probably benefit from some copious pre-salting for you know, on the order of hours, you know, even you know, a little bit longer, better, to break up that collagen and to get make it a little bit easier on the cut, and then you can still low temp it or cook as normal. But if it looks like a very fine grain, then odds are the salting is not gonna help you, especially since you don't know what cut it is. And then uh I would just I mean, if you're gonna serve it within a couple of hours, salt it, and then do the cooking procedure like I like I outlined. Is this making any sense? Yeah, definitely.
+
+[33:13] Right. Uh all right, uh, listen, um uh tweet me on uh at cooking issues. Let me know how it went. I just got a message from my listener that said, please start next episode of in sicko mode so Dave can talk about it for 10 minutes. L-M-A-O.
+
+[33:27] Have a wait. Did I talk about sicko Mode for ten minutes on the last show? No, they're the responding to your dancing to it. Well, I mean, Sicko Mode is a great song. I mean, obviously.
+
+[33:41] I don't think anybody knew that you'd be able to to do that to dance like that. I mean, listen, let me tell you people something. Dave likes to dance. First of all, I like to dance, and second of all, there's no one particular age at which your butt becomes broken. What?
+
+[33:59] Your butt was broken one time. Yeah, no, but I mean, I don't mean like I don't mean like that. I mean like for pooping. But I mean in terms of like it your funk motor does not break simply because you get older. Now you might not be able to keep it going as long as you're white.
+
+[34:14] I saw James Brown perform a year before he died, or two years before he died. All right. Booker was on my back. And it is true that James Brown was not the James Brown of old when I saw him. He was old, but he was not the James Brown of old.
+
+[34:31] But I swear to God, he could be the real James Brown for like five minutes at a crack. So I mean, like, you know, it's not like it's not like, you know, when I was a when I was a a kid, I go out on the dance floor two, three, four out. The last time I was on a dance floor for a long time. Was when we were dancing in your and when you were No, the last time was at my reunion and uh and uh you know, a a friend of mine who was there who's a doctor was like, You must leave and rehydrate. Oh, remember that time that you were dancing and you got home and Jen thought it was raining outside.
+
+[35:05] You were so soaked, and you wouldn't take your jacket off. I don't take my jacket off. I don't take my jacket off when I dance. Cause I don't. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:12] Yeah. People are like, why? I'm like, I don't know. Like, why does anyone have uh, you know, why don't you strip naked for Christ's sakes? Uh you know what I mean?
+
+[35:29] It's like, how much worse is a sweaty shirt without a jacket? And usually it's only at the end of the night that my jacket soaks through. Yeah. Once your jacket soaks through. You were the only one dancing last night.
+
+[35:39] Or our group was the only one dancing last night. Yeah, look, if Quest Love's gonna come spin some stuff, and by the way, now Questlove does it obviously he's a does a good job at DJ. Oh my god, what about the stiff arm on uh so people were trying to he wrote that in his book though? He doesn't he doesn't allow that. People would go up and try to selfie themselves hymns into them.
+
+[35:58] So they would walk up where he was spinning, and he obviously has both his hands on the turntables, and they try to like walk up in front of the DJ table and then like make it look like he they're doing a selfie with them. Yeah, but you were saying he was like stiff arming the Yeah, it was great. Yeah, it was great. Why does he not like it? Because he's very focused on the music and the next song and the choice that's the whole thing.
+
+[36:22] Yeah, but not so focused that he doesn't notice that some idiot's trying to take a selfie with him. He just doesn't like people interrupting his thing. I get that. Yeah, I get it. Anyway, so uh if he's gonna spin, you might as well dance, right?
+
+[36:33] Yeah. And he played great. He played a good although I I was interested, he played some Jackson 5 in the Didn't he? No. At the beginning.
+
+[36:43] No, Dave. Was it someone else who did that? No, he did not. Anyways, uh, which I thought was an interesting choice given I saw that documentary. I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[36:50] That's a whole nother not a cooking issue. Not a cooking issue. Uh but he played a wide range of stuff, which I always appreciate, all the way up to, you know, Travis Scott from last year, Sicco Mode, which was a fantastic song, and uh is you know not difficult to dance to. No, you did well. Not not at all difficult to dance to.
+
+[37:11] It's designed to make well, he played the the what's I guess technically the second part of it, and that's the easiest one of the three sections to dance to. The interesting thing about that album, in fact, I think, if you if you really want to get me started on Travis Scott, I think some of it, a lot of his earlier stuff somewhat somewhat derivative of other people that you might know, or not derivative, but like in the same vein as like future or these other kind of, you know, you like future, right? I don't know anything about future. Matt, you like future? I I got nothing.
+
+[37:41] What? You're not familiar with I got nothing. Percocet, Molly Percocet, Percocet, Molly Percocet. I know we've got something about Percocet, but I don't know anything about the song you're talking about. Really?
+
+[37:51] What about F Up Some Commas? You know that song? Nope. F Up Comma. You know this?
+
+[37:55] Anyway. So like some of this stuff is like, you know, because whatever. But this album, right? Astro World. Astro World's An album.
+
+[38:04] Yeah, Dave, it's an album. Album. Hey. Hey, hey. You're making me feel like I'm not gonna do it.
+
+[38:11] You did it twice. You're making me feel crazy. Yeah. Guess what else? Nuclear.
+
+[38:16] Suck it. Anyway, so uh suck it, people! Coupon! Eat it! So, um anyway, uh the songs are kind of broken up into micro songs, so it's almost like these like cycles within cycles, which I think is kind of I never would have said that.
+
+[38:41] Anyway, so wait, well, what you said we had someone on the air. What were we talking about? We're gonna eat the cider now. No, you're you're doing the cider thing now. We're tasting the cider cider.
+
+[38:48] Oh, so I texted Dax. He said it's not a virgin. Also coupon. Coupon. You want some of this, Matt?
+
+[38:55] I'm coming in. Alright. I'm coming in! Bring a glass. It's light.
+
+[39:01] Well, it's hard to tell whether it's unfiltered because this glass is uh No, it's unfiltered. Yeah, it's unfiltered. It's got some funk on it. So what the give me the the the give me the information on this? Apples.
+
+[39:16] Um sorry. Uh shh. Tastes like it's got some oxidation, but it's not oxidized, right? So it's almost got a little bit of nutty hit on the end, but it's not over oxidated. Testics actually, it's not too acidic, which I enjoy.
+
+[39:31] I think a lot of people make their stuff too acidic. Do you get any acetic acid off of it, Nastasia? No. Yeah, do you like acetic ciders? I do.
+
+[39:37] Really? Yeah. I prefer my ciders to not be acetic. This guy also says that um he thinks you're his grandfather was your high school principal. Wait.
+
+[39:48] His grandfather was my high school principal? His grandfather was your high school principal. Who is his grandfather? I don't know. He's looking into it.
+
+[39:55] Um Breen, Cartolicchio. Oh no. Hope you guys get to try it. Currently working on another co-ferment faux rose with apples and rhubarb. Alright, well, I'm enjoying it.
+
+[40:06] You enjoying it? Yeah, I am enjoying it. I'm enjoying it. Matt, you enjoying it? Uh yeah.
+
+[40:11] Yeah. Are you waiting? Are you a cider person? I'm not a big cider person. Uh I do feel like I don't know.
+
+[40:20] I feel like a little more I would prefer a little more acidity because at the end it just kind of falls in the case. Oh, this guy's flat a little bit. Macklin Kazanoff and Ned Moshe. Okay. You like a more acidity in your in your cider?
+
+[40:33] I haven't had a ton of ciders, but I'm just tasting this drink and responding to it. The average cider made for American palettes. Your principal's name is Ed Hart. Yes. Okay.
+
+[40:45] So yeah. The average the average cider made for American palates, I think is kind of overly acidic because people want it to drink like tart apples, right? So like they'll label things like Granny Smith, or they'll they'll do things that have a high acid content, or they'll kind of uh sometimes even kind of worse jacket jacket with sugar and jacket with malic acid to make it seem more apple y, so it has more of an apple hit. Um other people will uh choose apples that taste good to eat and then when they're fermented out they get overly kind of acidic and they won't include enough kind of tannic apples. I don't know what apples they're using here, but uh it tastes like it's got a good bit of tannin like kind of structure in the back.
+
+[41:29] Yes, I saw an apples, I told you. No, that's not that's not an eye, it's not an apple, it's a style. And they say made with seconds, and seconds is a good way to make this. So what is with seconds mean? So leftover.
+
+[41:40] Well, it's apples that are too kind of blemish to use for kind of first sale. So like whether, like a lot of times you'll you'll get something that kind of bites or burrows into an apple, and it'll get a defect there, uh, but it doesn't actually harm the apple in terms of its juice. Um so you know, they're useful for uh for things like you know, for things like this. Uh they have a lower market value, so they can be used in ciders without you know incurring kind of a large uh economic penalty. But I like it.
+
+[42:08] And so uh I'm you know, I I I think it's just like drinkable. What? Well, no, I haven't answered the questions yet. Dave, it's 12. Give me 12.
+
+[42:16] That clock is round. Hold on a second, hold on a second, hold on a second. Let me rip through this. Matt, can I rip through this? I mean, good by me.
+
+[42:22] All right. Uh this is from Alex in Toronto. Yesterday, my wife arrived home from a children's birthday party with a large clear plastic bag full of slowly thawing meat. That's my next band, slowly thawing meat. Her friend's husband is an accomplished hunter, and when they're in season, he and his buddies bag Canada Geese by the dozen.
+
+[42:37] I prefer by the bushel. Uh you seen the beginning of Pat and Ever. No, get into the question. I now have 16 goosebreasts divided into Ziploc bags in my fridge. I hope they are Ziploc's real name brands.
+
+[42:49] Uh in my fridge. Not that they give us any money. They're getting suit for top now. Anyways, waiting to be cooked. They are very dark red in color and have a t uh tender texture when raw.
+
+[42:59] I haven't tasted one yet. Uh well, so how do you know they're tender? You mean they're squidgy. Anyway, uh I haven't tasted one yet, but they smell great. I've already put a couple in the circulator, different temperatures and times, 53 and 55, both for two hours.
+
+[43:12] But I wonder if you might have some uh advice for how to proceed in figuring out what time attempt to cook them out and how to figure out some flavor pairings that go well for them. Well, similar, similar to to I ideally come up with stove sauces or dishes to build a meal around so I can share the wealth. I mean, in general, I don't know any that much about goose as opposed to duck, right? But here's what I do know about cooking duck. So I would just, if it was me, I don't have a lot of experience, I would just go for the same stuff that goes well with duck, which is pretty much everything.
+
+[43:40] Uh, you know, people like fruits. People look in general, people think fall for this kind of crap, so they're probably thinking kind of like fruity compoody kind of crap. Right, Nastasia on things like duck. I guess I don't care. That's what Nastas is saying.
+
+[43:52] I guess I don't really care. Here's what I would say. I'd say all those temperatures are rather low. I would look at the fat on the uh on the I assuming there's fat on it, right? I you didn't say it, but I'm assuming it's got the skin and the fat.
+
+[43:59] If it has the skin and the fat, assess kind of how much skin and fat there is there. I would cook them. When I cooked, I'll tell you what I do duck at. I do duck at 57 for no longer than 45 minutes. And the issue uh to do is if you're gonna crisp up the skin, which of course I recommend, is to when you put it into a bag, that you before you put it in the in the water, put it flat skin side down and press it down.
+
+[44:29] Uh press it down uh so that that skin is flat so that once it's cooked and you put it into a pan, you'll be able to get that skin flat, right? So it's not bent up, so you actually can get good rendering and do it that. But I would do 57, no more than 45 minutes. Uh otherwise you can start pulling on some livery tastes. I think 53 and 55, 55 for two hours, uh you know, maybe it'll be okay at that point, but I would really recommend something like 56, 57 for 45.
+
+[44:57] Uh, that's what I typically do for duck. Uh and Shy writes in, I love tofu skin, but it's not available where I live. I tried making it at home using the traditional method of simmering soy milk and pulling the form skin with modest success. But this is time consuming, and the end product is not uniform. Could you suggest a method by which one may make a decent amount of you but with less effort?
+
+[45:17] No. Like making tofu skin is incr very rewarding. Uh, you both tofu skin is very rewarding, but it's always kind of a pain in the butt. Um, every time I've made it, I've just used the widest thing that I can get and like kind of simmered it low. And what you say about not uniform is something that I think a lot of people don't realize.
+
+[45:36] And here's a strange thing. It's been many years, like on the order of six or seven years since I last made it, uh, fresh from scratch. Uh, but the concept is is you make a rather thick soy milk. Um, some people put it uh uh in a pan over a pan so that they don't scorch it. Uh you want to heat it up to about 90 just you know at the simmer.
+
+[45:55] If you actually get bubbles in it, the bubbles will be in your skin, in your tofu skin, and which you don't want. You let a skin form, you wait until it actually attaches to the side of your pan. You cut around it, you lift it up on chopsticks, you dry it. Or not. You eat it right away.
+
+[46:10] It's fantastic, it's incredibly time consuming. And what you talk about not uniform, what I'm assuming is is that the very first skin that forms uh is incredibly different from the last that forms. And the reason this happens is because uh as the tofu, as the the yuba sets, right, you're depleting the milk from the ingredients that you're taking out of it uh tip at typically at a non-uniform rate. So the composition of the Yuba at the beginning is very different from the one at the end. The one at the end, if memory serves, it's been many years, it's kind of darker, redder uh and tastes different, but it's interesting all the way.
+
+[46:44] So I would never try to make Uba at home for a quantity. I would do it just as I do it every once in a while to taste the magic that is uh fresh homemade Yuba, because nothing else is quite the same. Um some other people wrote some stuff in on Twitter. I'll have to answer on Twitter in a uh shorter format. Speaking of uh wild geese, uh you know who you are, if you listen, stocked by our bar left me a note, which I I think I lost your contact info, but apparently you have a lot of pheasants in your in your freezer.
+
+[47:15] I love pheasant, although if you want, you know, tweet in or you know, email Nastasia. If you want me to talk about the most unpleasant pheasant experience I've ever had in Italy. What? I've had two unpleasant uh pheasant plucking experiences. Oh yes, I know this.
+
+[47:32] But the worst was actually where I didn't pluck it, where they had me try to recreate an old Roman recipe. I was with Johnny Azini doing a pilot many years ago. Time machine chef? No, no, different one. I'm not time machine chef.
+
+[47:44] It was not time machine chef. What was time machine? Well, well, since you have something to say about it, why don't you, you know. The chef comes out of a refrigerator. Dave, why'd you do that?
+
+[48:04] If someone calls you and says, Do you want to do this pilot? You know, pretty much. What did you have to do? I was just a guest, I was just a judge. I was a judge.
+
+[48:19] I did not come out of the fridge. The contestant came out of the fridge. The fridge was a time machine reference, like Bill and Ted's phone booth. But fridge. And you had a dress in the period clothing.
+
+[48:30] I did not have to. No, I did not. No, I just dressed like a person. I was a a I was the judge who knew about the history and the technology of that was my that was my deal. But this was not that.
+
+[48:44] This was we were recreating old Roman stuff, and they had me recreate this recipe where you kept the birds, you you kept the feathers on the bird, took the skin off, and then put the skin, the like the raw skin with the feathers on it back over the bird after you cooked it. But what was even grosser was is we went out and we shot these pheasants in in the in the you know out in Italy. We were in Italy. We shot these pheasants, and then they were sitting around for like you know, a day or two, and then we went to go. Uh they they needed me to to take the skin off and to eviscerate it outside, right?
+
+[49:22] And it was in Italy. For any who's been in like Italy, outside it was in Lazio outside Rome. There were like those tiny Vespo wasps, those those yellow jackets that they have in Italy, and they eat meat, by the way. And so like I'm sitting there trying to explain how to take the skin off of the pheasant and keep the skin in one piece intact and how to eviscerate it. And I don't like I don't like wasps, okay?
+
+[49:47] And they're constantly just like I'm being swarmed like a freaking B-beard of freaking yellow jackets while I'm trying to rip the stinking guts out of a pheasant on a wood stump. I don't know why the hell we're doing outside. I'm sure the Romans had an inside. This was for Time Machine Chef. This was not for Time Machine Chef.
+
+[50:07] Anyway, that was that was the most unpleasant pheasant cooking experience I've ever had. The kind of the most botched was I went and bought a pheasant with the feathers on in France from uh, you know, a gibier who sells you know the volley anyway. So I got this pheasant and I mutilated that skin trying to pluck that stuff, and there was uh my god. And then that's the one where I I ripped up the person's floor because they didn't have any wood, so I ripped up and took extra oak out of their floor and burnt it and cooked the pheasant over the oak. That tasted delicious anyway.
+
+[50:42] Alright, we gotta go. All right, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[51:09] Just enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[51:35] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Protein is everywhere, but the real upgrade is fiber maxing.
+
+[51:57] That's pairing protein with fiber-rich fruit, like fresh pears. One medium pear delivers six grams of gut-friendly fiber, helping you feel fuller and supporting better digestion. No extra effort. Slice pears with yogurt, blend one into your post-workout smoothie, or just bite in. No peeling needed.
+
+[52:13] The skin brings the fiber. Better together. Pears help protein work smarter, not harder. Bite them, bake them, or blend them. Find recipe inspiration at usapears.org.
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+[0:00] This episode is presented by the Brooklyn Kitchen. Learn more at Brooklyn Kitchen.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. This year we're celebrating 10 years of food radio.
+
+[0:15] For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, bars, and more. It's been 10 years, and we're just getting started. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arrow, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday.
+
+[0:42] I know it's really late this time. It's freaking MTA! Why don't you just take the F to the L? Because you know the J is always gonna be messed up. I don't I didn't.
+
+[0:50] They don't have look. When you get MTA people, in fact, we know an MTA person. Like, just put a sign on, like, right before you go down the stairway saying you are shafted. But you always are shafted No, no! They've gone back to being in a normal schedule.
+
+[1:09] How many times has Dave been late because of the MTA? Um, I always assumed it wasn't because of the MTA, he just used them as a foil. Yeah, no. In fact, but they had gone back to their normal schedule. I hadn't, like, assumed that they were going to reshaft it and not stop at flushing anymore and just like divert to the middle track and sit there.
+
+[1:28] I just think you should take the F to the L. Oh, you think so, huh? Yes. Because I take the A C E to the L. Yeah, because you live in Hell's Kitchen.
+
+[1:37] I live three blocks from something that goes directly to here when it's running properly. Which is never. No, it was running properly again. It was running in both directions. Uh do you check the map or the MTA?
+
+[1:52] No, I'm stupid and assume that the trains are running on tracks. Are you being sarcastic? No, I I'm serious. Booker, my son, checks it every day. Right.
+
+[2:00] So then why don't you do that? And then you'd be on time. Yes, I know, but it's dumb. And also I have to research a bunch. So, like what happens is I try to push it till the last second so I can get the train that will get me here on time normally, because I'm I don't get the information that you guys send until I'm already basically passed out the night this time.
+
+[2:19] I can send it earlier. Whatever. You say that. You say that often, but yet unless I actually get the questions when I'm still in a mood to work. Sunday.
+
+[2:27] Sure. And then we can add additional questions, then I can look at it beforehand, but instead I have to do all of the research in the morning from the minute I get up until I get on that train. So if I'm not on that train, it's because I'm researching questions so that I can get in here late and not have time to answer them. Which way is this? And then we'll send the MTA schedule every morning.
+
+[2:54] Oh me, me. This is me and Stasia being aggressive aggressive. You're such a jerk. You know what? Like I have to sit here.
+
+[3:01] You're not being helpful. You speak Hey, people, go into the ch uh the Twitter chat room, but by the way, someone asked, is this mixer thing? Is that the chat room? Yes. Alright.
+
+[3:11] So you hear that? The mixer thing is in fact the chat room. See whether Nastasia is actually being helpful or not. Okay. Speaking of being the chat room link is now in every episode description too.
+
+[3:22] Oh, I like that. Did you do anything interesting, uh, Matt? This past week from a food perspective? Oh boy. Um.
+
+[3:31] No. Nastasia did. Nastasia went to the uh opening party of the Hudson Yards. One of the best parties ever. Yeah.
+
+[3:40] Well, mainly what what is what is it? What does a party need to be to be one of the best parties ever in your estimation? Unlimited Krug, um, cavi unlimited caviar and a great DJ. There you have it, people. It's not a complicated formula for Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[3:55] Just play some decent tunes and keep the champagne coming. Some caviar. Keep the champagne. Was the caviar good of champagne? Yeah.
+
+[4:04] Or did you eat them separately? Separately. Yeah. Okay. Um, tomorrow, Nastasia and I have to, and she's super psyched about it.
+
+[4:13] No, I think I'm less psyched than you are. Uh so uh we're doing a shoot. Actually, Harold McGee's coming in to do it. We're doing a shoot about French fries where we're gonna dredge up the old SPL French fries supremacy techniques. And so after this, Nastasia is super nothing Nastasia loves more than staring there with her vegan face on, watching me blanch potato strips.
+
+[4:35] I will take some videos, and hopefully there will be a rant from Dave. And then, like, she doesn't like French fries anyway. Yeah. So, and Nastasia, I can't even she can't even pretend to give a crap. Even though this is literally our job to do this stuff.
+
+[4:51] Like, we're gonna go have people videotape us and like, you know. It's just you. So I just again have to stand there watching you do it. What? Yeah, tomorrow they're just videotaping you.
+
+[5:06] Well, and McGee, you're not gonna be in the thing? No. You know what the thing is, Nest here's another thing, people. Is there anything in the world that you hate more than being in a shoot? I hate it.
+
+[5:17] You know why she hates it now? You know why she hates it now? Why? Because she's like, who do these people think they are? Francis Ford Coppola?
+
+[5:25] Yes! Just get the shot already! Yeah. She does not appreciate people caring about their job. No, I love people that care about their job.
+
+[5:32] No, you don't. No, you're a liar. She wants them to be so good at their job. No, they're just doing it. No, no, no, no.
+
+[5:38] You're being you're being far too charitable. No, no, no. No, Nastasia Lopez has no respect for what they do for a living, and therefore do not think it is worth trying to be good at. I think movie people are great, like Francis Ford. Ow, like really.
+
+[5:50] They deserve that. Oh, radio cramp. Radio cramp. But like the getting the shot over and over and over for an unknown. I don't know who's filming it tomorrow.
+
+[5:59] How are you supposed to be good at what you do unless you try to do a good job? What I also hate is they're like, can you do the thing that you did again? Because they didn't get it. No, no, no. And you're like, but that was so off the cuff.
+
+[6:09] And they're like, I know, but just pretend. That's how this works. I know, but I just I don't like it. Yeah, but if it's because you fundamentally don't respect any makers and you don't respect any aspect of you don't respect the people who are doing it, and you don't respect what they are doing. You're like, who cares?
+
+[6:27] It's just gonna be, you know, one person's gonna watch it, it's gonna get tossed, it's gonna, you know, it's like it's it's the visual equivalent of toilet paper. That's what your mind. Dave, you were on good morning southwestern uh specific Connecticut. That is wrong. It was good morning Southern Connecticut Sunday.
+
+[6:48] Yeah, nostalgia, you totally miscarriage it. And by the way, by the way, when I bring it, I bring it, I killed that segment. I have no doubt. Yeah, but see, like that, that's one segment. Because you get me to do something, and I just I do it.
+
+[7:01] That's my favorite thing in the world. It makes sense. You're what? Saturday night life. Yeah.
+
+[7:05] No, no lots of takes. Uh, you're wrong. They read, they they practice that a billion times. Which is the same thing as doing a take. They just have to use the last one because they're live.
+
+[7:17] They sit there and do the same crap over and over. If you had to do that, not as much as you can. Maybe like three times. Excuse you. If you had to do that, you'd be like, what are we talking about?
+
+[7:27] This they sit there like all night like discussing like a single joke, and you're like, well, what are you? What are you? What are you Rembrandt with your jokes? What? It was right before.
+
+[7:36] No, they're not different. Steve, can you fry that uh blanch that French fry from this angle now? No, no, well, you know what? We want an overhead. Now let's move all the lighting and we gotta move all the lighting.
+
+[7:46] I can't This is why it's this is why you also can't get Nastasia to take a picture of something for you that's important. Or a video. Because she's like she'll she'll sit there and like she'll start looking at something else. She'll be like, uh, something outside the window is interesting. Maybe my mouth.
+
+[7:59] And she'll like suddenly start videotaping the thing that's outside the window. You're like, hello. Like the purpose of a video is to take information and put it into people's heads using a visual medium. So you need to care about what the picture is. I think we have a we have a caller on the air with a question about cinematography.
+
+[8:18] Okay, nice. Caller, you're on the air. Oh hey, how's it going? Long time listener, first time caller. Sorry to interrupt that rant.
+
+[8:25] That was pretty fun. Maybe it can continue after my question. Um no doubt. But yeah, I just have a question about freezing enzymes. Okay.
+
+[8:33] Uh so I'm planning to make uh a garum from some small fish that I've got frozen in my freezer. And I know that kind of depends on the quality of the gut enzymes to kind of get that going. So would freezing have a negative impact on being able to use the kind of endogenous enzymes? Yes, I'm I'm thinking about it. For instance, SPL, the one that we use for uh you know, most of our work at the bar, is freeze thaw stable.
+
+[9:08] And I would bet many enzymes are freeze thaw stable. Um for instance, when you know you freeze a um when you freeze a uh a piece of uh like an avocado, for instance, and it thaws, it's still the polyphenol oxidase enzymes in them still shred it. You know what I mean? So many, many, many enzymes are free saw stable. Are all I don't know.
+
+[9:33] But the good news is unless you are freezing something to extremely low temperatures, there's still a lot of water unfrozen left inside of your fish. You're not getting it down below the you know what some people call, even though it has many different meanings, the eutectic point where all of the liquid is frozen solid. And so, you know, it's a known fact that certain um enzymatically, you know, um what's the word, catalyzed things, because of the radical concentration increasing uh increase as the uh liquid phase gets less and less can actually go up even when it's uh in super cold storage in freezer storage, which seems kind of paradoxical. So uh the answer is I would say you're probably fine. Okay, cool.
+
+[10:15] I think you also answered my second related question, which is I've got some pectinase and I wanted to freeze it, but uh couldn't find any information on if it was freeze thaw stable. So I will tell you what happened. Uh my partner at existing conditions, Don Lee, we needed to reorder uh Pectenex, right? Now, by the way, this is something you people might not know out there. Uh, for years we've been using uh Pectenex Ultra SPL, right?
+
+[10:39] And it turns out Guzmer, the place that we buy it from, was telling us to use that one, and most people are using that in the literature, especially in European papers. Why? Because it is not GMO. But we now get Pectanex Ultra XXL, which sounds like you know, like a rap album. And XXL is uh GMO, has like uh the organism, the I guess it's an aspergillus or whatever it is that that you know produces it, is a GMO organism, right?
+
+[11:08] Uh, and it is get ready for it, people, half the cost. J at l at least as effective, if not more, half the cost. So I'm switching to XXL. And then when we reorder this pail, right? Of uh, because you have to buy we buy it in um 25 uh kilo pails, right?
+
+[11:26] So that's 25 kilos. We buy the 25 kilo pail. Uh they wanted to know if we wanted um a special kind of packing around it to prevent it from freezing. And Don was like, why? Does it matter if it freezes?
+
+[11:39] And they said, I don't know, I'll check. And they checked and they're like, nope, it does not matter if it freezes or not. So there you have it. Straight from straight from Guzmer's mouth. Awesome.
+
+[11:48] It's actually it's actually not Guzmer anymore, it's JTEC Industries now, I think. JTEC. Don't call Gusmer, they no longer carry that. I think it's JTEC, which is a Nova Zime distributor of SPL. They switched about two years ago.
+
+[11:59] Anyway, good luck with it. Let us know how your Garm comes out. Right on. Back to the rant. Alright, cool.
+
+[12:05] Well, I don't know. I'm I'm I'm not necessarily feeling the level of anger anymore. So we'll talk about uh here's something I'm angry about. I got a note, not food related, then I'll get off this onto food-related stuff. I got a note, this is Nastasi related.
+
+[12:19] Nastasia, for those of you that don't know, is the Tesla whisperer. Love. Yeah. Did you see they announced the Model Y? People aren't as jazzed about the Model Y because it's less crazy than they thought it would be.
+
+[12:29] And but other people who are kind of smart about it were like, well, it shouldn't be crazy. It's the Model Y. My son Dax obviously wants the X. But here's where it gets in. Nastasia can, for any reason at any time, somehow manage to wangle a Tesla.
+
+[12:44] I don't know how. She she can pick hers up at any time because she was one of the early, early adopters of the Model 3 when they when they did their equivalent of pre-ordering, right? Their quick Kickstarter equivalent. So anyway, so Subaru uses, which I own a Subaru because you know, Eastern, you know, Connecticut, all this is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:03] Whatever. So uh Subaru used to use uh Tanaka airbags. And it's gonna take a second, but you got that in your head, Nastasia? Yes. Okay.
+
+[13:13] Well, you know what? Pretend that you haven't heard it. Radio. She this is what she can't do. This is why she can't film things.
+
+[13:19] She can't even, for 20 seconds, get off her phone where she's searching for whatever she's gonna buy. I'm listening. So anyway, so like you told me that in the first take. Right. Right.
+
+[13:29] This is what I have to deal with, people. So uh the airbags, uh it it doesn't really happen that often, but like they put the wrong kind of uh material in the detonators for the airbags, and sometimes now, minor accident, the airbag will inflate and shatter, the housing will shatter and we'll send shrapnel through people's face and kill them in the passenger seat, right? Okay, so I call up Subaru because they sent me a letter in the mail saying, hey, you should not drive your car. Uh you should get it fixed. I was like, okay, I'll get it fixed immediately.
+
+[13:59] So I call the Subaru dealer, and the Subaru dealer is like, oh yeah, yeah, we can change that out for you in July. And then another one I called, and they're like, we can do it in late April. I got one that would do it in early April, and I was like, what the hell am I supposed to do before April if I need to drive the car with like with my whole family, like the the two kids, the two dogs, and my wife. And they're like, well, it, you know, nothing's happened so far, so why don't you just keep on driving? And I was like, are you on crack?
+
+[14:27] I was like, look, the airbag has never gone off because I've never been in an accident before. You're expecting me to wait for the airbag to go off to send shrapnel through my wife's head as she sits in the passenger seat. You freak. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[14:42] I was like, I was she was like, well, or he, I forget which one. It was like, well, you know, I guess when you put it that way, I'm like, yeah, I guess when you put it that way. Yeah, so everyone has to sit in the back seat with the dogs in the back. So then I realized. And this is why I'm bringing it up on the air.
+
+[14:55] But can you believe they said that to me? This is why I'm bringing it up on the air. Nastasia, like, I have a gift card, which I don't know if it's still valid for a one night, but I need you two nights. It says one on the thing. I need you to extend it.
+
+[15:08] I need you to use your Tesla skills. And just tell them it's two nights. I'm not good at it. You need that, you need to Nastasia. I do I do stuff for you.
+
+[15:15] Not really recently. Oh, okay. Okay, people. Give me one recent. What?
+
+[15:22] Yeah. I the last one is a fake fireplace. And that's like seven years ago. What? Yeah.
+
+[15:30] What? Yeah. You are uh I'm not gonna you know what? You know what, people? Lack of gratitude.
+
+[15:35] Dave, give me one. Give me one. I'm not gonna bring up personal crap on the air. Lack of freaking gratitude. Seriously.
+
+[15:44] Actually, no, I know what you did. People. Do you want to know? No. People are the line.
+
+[15:49] You want to know? I want wine Santa. No, many things. Many things. I put up with all kinds of garbage.
+
+[15:57] Constant. Just hearing stories is not garbage, though. You haven't heard the stories, people. Anyway. A lot of them, I think they have, actually.
+
+[16:05] Uh no. Oh no. Yeah. No, no. Yeah.
+
+[16:09] Yeah. Dave basically knows everything. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah, when it when it goes down, I'm gonna get the I'm gonna be the first double tap to the head when she needs to bury all of the information.
+
+[16:20] Pop pop. This episode is presented by the Brooklyn Kitchen, a recreational cooking school on a mission to change the world by teaching people how to cook like grown-ups. The Brooklyn Kitchen began in 2006 when two creative home chefs, Taylor Erkin and Harry Rosenbloom recognized an opportunity to create a community space with approachable, hands-on cooking classes and inventive culinary experiences. Taylor and Harry believe that cooking is a daily practice in creative problem solving. They bring this ethos to the Brooklyn Kitchen, a cooking school that fosters community and redefines home cooking for everyone.
+
+[17:01] Now located at Sunset Parks Industry City, the Brooklyn Kitchen hosts a range of public and private cooking classes, corporate team parties, pop-up dinners, and tasting events for cooks of all levels. Learn more at the Brooklyn Kitchen.com. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. I'm Damon Boldy.
+
+[17:20] And I'm Southern Teague. Together we host the Speakeasy, a show where we discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid universe. Yeah, our guests range from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, hippies and home brewers, and every expert enthusiast in between. Browse episodes of the Speakeasy wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritage radio network.org. Josh Antigrews writes in, I have a question for Dave and Cooking Issues.
+
+[17:44] I am unsure how to get the salt levels correct for braised meats. I struggle to get enough salt in the meat without oversalting the cooking liquid. I typically want to eat both the meat and the liquid, often reducing the liquid into a souse. What do you recommend? Thanks, uh, Dave and Stasia.
+
+[18:06] Uh Josh Andrews. Well, you needn't bother thanking Nastasia because she doesn't care about your question and won't answer it. Shots fired. Yeah. But um the fact of the matter is is that you know, if you look at uh old recipes for, let's say, stocks, uh, you know, and and master sauces that the French that the French folk use, they hesitate from putting any salt at all into which I think is a mistake, but they hesitate for putting any salt at all into things like a stock that they know that they're gonna reduce and they know they're gonna use for a bunch of different preparations.
+
+[18:38] So you're running into kind of a similar situation here where you're using a stock at one concentration or a sauce, rather, at one concentration, and then you're gonna reduce it to another. So it isn't necessarily possible to get all of the um, you know, all the salt you want in your meat, let's say, and then also uh, you know, get the correct level in the in the sauce, because if you're gonna reduce it after you braise it by a lot, then well, that's gonna get real salty if they had the correct salt amount into the meat. So, in general, um, you know, you want to figure it you can't really do this. So, so what I'm saying to you is like it's just in theory only. But in general, what you want to have happen is you want to have a general idea of what your total content is going to be towards the end, and then hit a total salt content for that.
+
+[19:30] So if you know you're gonna end up with, let's say, you know, two cups, two cups, what am I freaking shoot? Two cups of sauce, and then X pounds of, yeah. I'm going back into my American roots. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:42] Two pounds of meat, then you can kind of calculate how much salt that whole thing would require, but you're still gonna run into problems if you're doing if you're doing uh, you know, uh cooking in a thin liquid and then a massive amount of work uh afterwards to thicken it. So I would recommend trying to get your sauces as close to the consistency that you're gonna want uh beforehand, then salting it so that it tastes kind of right as you're going in the pot during the braise. You can I add salt probably in three or four um chunks. I'll I know I'm gonna add some at the beginning, I add some at the beginning. Then as the braise progresses towards the end, I'll see kind of how much reduction there needs to be.
+
+[20:23] Maybe I'll taste it, I'll add a little more, then I'll pull the meat out if I'm gonna pull the meat out, and then I do any reduction right there, and then add the meat uh back in, right? But also if you're doing something in the bag, you must over-reduce your sauce beforehand. So it's actually kind of easier. The the mistake people make in the bag is they don't realize kind of how much liquid is gonna come out of the meat. So your braising sauce becomes much or your your sauce, whatever you're gonna call it, becomes much more liquidy, and therefore you have much less flavor than you're used to because if you're used to kind of open container cooking, you're used to evaporation happening and no evaporation happens in the bag.
+
+[20:58] So the secret of sauce in the bag, if you're going to use it and you want to get the salt levels correct from the get-go, is to over-reduce your sauce. I mean, over-reduce your sauce. The meat will shoot its liquid out into the into the sauce, it'll water it down, and hopefully everything will even out from uh from a salt perspective. Um anyway, hopefully that's helpful. Is that helpful?
+
+[21:14] Yes. Nastasi's like, it's helpful for me because you've stopped speaking. Uh Andy in Chicagoland calls about or wrote about Manhattan. You know Manhattan? Slash bunker, bait fish.
+
+[21:33] You ever do any fishing? All right. Matt? No, I got nothing. Nothing.
+
+[21:38] Hey, uh, well, then again, hey Nastasia. Nastasia doesn't care, Andy. Dave, I care about you. Matt and the crew. Matt is the crew.
+
+[21:45] Oh, thank you. I never get named in these questions. Really? Are you uh Matt, do you do you like the group Motorhead? Uh sure.
+
+[21:54] What what is your favorite motorhead song? I mean, I don't, I I'm not like a huge fan. I've listened to some Hawk Wind, I've listened to some Motorhead. I like Lemmy. He seems like a good dude.
+
+[22:02] Was it peace? Was back, yeah, when he was alive. Anyway, whenever anyone mentions crew on this, and anyone who's in audio engineering, I recommend you listen to uh my favorite track from the Ace of Spades album, We Are the Road Crew. I will most certainly rock out to it. Oh my god.
+
+[22:19] Such a great song. We are the road crew. The story, I think I might have told this on the air before was that he wrote this song. Oh, what's the story? You tell it then.
+
+[22:29] Jerk. So, like, uh, so what happens is it's that would be a fun game for this show, by the way. Every time Nastasia's like, oh, I've heard this already, she has to tell it. Yeah, yeah. Then she would maybe be quiet about saying that stuff.
+
+[22:40] So, anyway, so Lemmy writes this song, I think on a bus, and then performs it live. It's the first time anyone hears it. And the some of the roadies literally started crying. They were so touched by him writing this song, We Are the Road Crew. And so, whenever I hear that song, I have this image of this like hard-living, like drunk out of their minds, stoned to like to the edge of existence, like grizzled road crew.
+
+[23:08] You know, motorheads roadies were like some serious roadies. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. And like just having an image of this guy standing on the sidelines with a little tear going down his cheek is like the most priceless image to me.
+
+[23:21] I love it. I think about it constantly. Uh anyway. Uh what's the ABV of that tear? Oh my god.
+
+[23:29] Right? Right? You could get drunk off that man's tears. We are the road crew. No, no, no, no, no.
+
+[23:37] That's such a good song. Um, Matt's recent trip to Charleston made me remember a question I had about pickling small schooling ocean fish. Small schooling ocean fish. Uh, but first, my wife and I are going to Charleston in a week, and I'd love to know where Matt got those pickled fish in Shadro. My wife doesn't love seafood like I do, but I'm gonna eat all the seafood I can.
+
+[23:57] We've we've actually been chatting about this, so I've given him recommendations in the chat. Well, why don't you help out the people who want to you know on a channel? So uh Xiaobao was my highest recommendation. It's a really amazing uh Vietnamese spot down there. Uh and then Callie's hot little biscuit for more of the food that you would expect to get down there.
+
+[24:16] Uh Citrus Club for good cocktails on a rooftop and graft for uh wine. There you go. There you have it. Uh but my main question is about pickling fish. My family goes to the Alabama Gulf Coast every couple of years to fish.
+
+[24:29] Uh remember the blue fish Ikaj made test from a while back? That was me. I do remember that. Uh one of the bait fish of choice for fishing off the Gulf State Park Pier is either the Gulf Manhattan, uh pilchered. So Gulf Manhattan is like a Manhattan, which is uh pilchered is uh, you know, uh certain sizes of pilchered are kind of what you would think of like as a sardine.
+
+[24:47] So we're talking about oily stuff, or most likely the scaled sardine. Honestly, I can't tell which is which, and neither can anyone else. Um with the right bait catching rig, I can catch a bucket full of them. And when the fish uh when the big fish aren't biting, like any sensible human, I've often wondered about eating the bait. I should just try it next time, but in the meantime, do you know if these types of small bait fish can be pickled like a herring or shad?
+
+[25:09] I've tried Googling, but there's not much info out there, especially about the Gulf species. Thanks, and in Chicago land. So, about Manhattan. Uh, I looked it up, and uh, of course it was Dan Barber. Someone did it, like took a bunch of Manhattan to Dan Barber, and because it turns out that Manhattan is one of the most widely landed fish in you know in the entire country, if not in the world, and it's used mainly for like fish meal, like cat food, dog food, fish meal for feeding to uh animals like omega-3 fatty oils that you take in your vitamin supplements and all this other kind of stuff, as well as for uh bait.
+
+[25:44] Um, and most people don't want to try it because it's an oily fish and they don't keep it well, which means that if it's not kept well, it kind of stinks to high heaven. But the main reason I think why it never caught on is that like a shad, which we were talking about last week, it's incredibly bony. So I read this uh kind of the travails of this guy along with the people at blue uh blue hillstone barns who were trying to put um Manhattan on the menu, and the main problem they were having is is that no one could get all of the crazy little bones out of it. Now, you've hit upon there's two ways you can get rid of bones. Well, there's two ways you can mitigate three ways.
+
+[26:19] You can actually do the job of filleting the thing. Well, four. You cannot care about the bones, but most of us do. They don't like having those little bones stuck in the back of your throat. Do you like having those little bones stuck?
+
+[26:28] You hate that? Are you freaked out about it? You know my wife is petrified of that, right? I probably said that on air. My wife's greatest fear is that someone's gonna choke on a fish bone.
+
+[26:37] Um so anyway, so you could just too, right? Um she's not as worried about chicken, but she doesn't like eating off the bone, but like whenever there's fish and one of the kids gets a bone, she's like, ah! You know what I mean? She's like all worried about it. Uh I don't know why.
+
+[26:53] She just because I eat so quickly, people, I eat so quickly. Nastasia, how quickly do I eat? Jiro. Uh well, what she's referring to is that uh both Nastasia Lopez and Mark Ladner blame me for their subpar time at Jiro because they felt somehow that they had to keep up with me. Nastasia has never before in her life felt like she needed to pay attention to what I do at all.
+
+[27:17] So I don't know why. And you were like, Don't be a pussy. I never no, I don't use that language. Anyway, that was hard. So yeah, I gotta keep up with you then.
+
+[27:29] No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't. You eat at your own, you eat it at your own pace. Dave, remember when we went to that event and you didn't know where it was, and it was at like Le Cirque, and we showed up all sweaty.
+
+[27:39] What does this have to do with anything? I kept up with you. That's walking. I'm saying we were paying $350 for sushi a piece for like that short of a meal. Because Jiro cutting according to when you were finished.
+
+[27:54] No, no, according to when we're all finished. No, Dave. As soon as you were finished, he could not wait. Just start cutting. It's his fault.
+
+[28:02] Yeah, and then he stood by the door when we were like trying to just just stay like a minute longer. Like he was like, get the F out. Matt, get on the chat room. Is this my problem or Nastasia's problem for worrying about when Jiro wants her to get out? Because I eat at the rate I eat no matter where I eat.
+
+[28:19] When you're in a Japanese country with like a master of a craft, and he's giving you the stink eye, like hurry up. Okay, so this is again. And I was like, Dave, slow down. No, why should I slow down? There was two other people, you and Mark.
+
+[28:36] And Mark had to get up every 25 seconds to, you know, set himself on spray anyway, because he had been poisoned at his last trip, right? So he had plenty of excuses for not eating your you know sushi at the rate that I did. But sorry if I don't enjoy eating slowly, and I'm not going to sit there like a moron and stare at my food just so that you don't feel guilty. Like you eat it however fast you want. Literally, I was I turned her at the time and was like, eat at whatever pace you want.
+
+[29:06] He's not gonna put crap on your on your plate until you're done with what you're done with. But he'll look at you like hurry. Okay, so this is again between your head and Jiro, and has nothing to do with me. Nothing. Has nothing to do with me.
+
+[29:21] It may surprise you to find out that no one in the chat is willing to wager on like team nostalgia versus team Dave here. But you guys have five minutes. Listen, so what happened was is I eat so quickly that um that my wife is always afraid that I'm going to uh choke. Anyway, so you can just deal with the fish bones. Um you can uh attempt to bone them, which is apparently almost impossible with this, or you can do a semi-filet and then either can them.
+
+[29:48] As I said, I think they were they were commercially canned in the 40s in Florida. I can't I only have been able to find a document from the 1940s, and it was probably like wartime shortages, which is why they did it in the first place, and then they just stopped doing it because people didn't pick up on it. But uh the flesh is apparently delicious, so as long as it's fresh and treated nicely. Uh so you could try because it's it's fundamentally in the same family as herrings. It really is fundamentally in the same family as a herring.
+
+[30:14] Now it's true, many different herrings have lots of different flavor profiles. Like I went to Cape Cod once and caught a bunch of what they call alewife, which is a bait fish that they use, um which is a herring, you know, herring style bait fish that they use to fish up on Cape. And I cooked them up and I would say they were okay. Well, they weren't the best herring I've ever had, but they were definitely edible. So anyway, so you have these bones.
+
+[30:35] Pickling will actually uh if I would change the vinegar out once or twice, will actually soften the bones because the vinegar will remove the calcium and make the bones a lot more edible. So I would do a pre-filet to get the big bones out, then leave the little bones uh in there and let the vinegar melt them out. But I would change it because if you've ever tasted the water or the vinegar, rather, after you've dropped a uh an eggshell into vinegar to make it soft, it's nasty. All the calcium stuff goes in the water and the water tastes pretty nasty. So I might switch it out once, unless you get most of the bones out, and then you should be okay.
+
+[31:08] The other thing you can do is if you can it uh in a pressure canning scenario, the bones will soften to the point that you can eat them. Again, if you leave larger bones in, they're relatively unpleasant. So if you've ever eaten canned salmon, any of you guys ever eaten canned salmon? No. And you have the they leave the backbone in, so it's certain kinds of canned salmon, they just chum it into steaks, pack it into a can, and then leave the kind of the backbone in, and you get these weird, nasty kind of calcium uh nuggets around it, which are kind of nasty, but then the rest of the bones melt out.
+
+[31:37] So any of that stuff uh should uh work. Um but I don't have time apparently to get into the derivation of the word Manhattan, which is kind of interesting. Okay. Uh Patrick writes in uh by the way, he likes the dance moves, which you posted on the internet. Nastasia is trying to get Travis Scott to come to the bar.
+
+[31:52] I don't think it's gonna happen. Uh I like making cocktails and frequently run out of lemons and limes, but I pretty much always have clementines around. Setting aside the questionable ethics of stealing my kids' cuties to make drinks, uh, how should I go about uh doping clementine juice with powdered acids? And what are some drink pre preparations you would recommend? Uh so the problem with clementines is that um, you know, what we call clementines are a kind of a wide variety of different mixes, uh usually like tangores, which are uh uh a mixture of uh orange and uh a mandarin.
+
+[32:22] And they do have a relatively wide range of acids. Most people consider them to be lower acid than let's say an orange. Uh although I did some research, I looked up a piece of uh I looked up a thing called Roll of Cultivar and Choosing Clementine fruits with a high level of health promoting compounds by Luigi Melella in 2011, and I looked at their titratable acidities for like 15 different cultivars or 10 different cultivars that they had, and the range of titratable acidity in it was between 1.6 and 3-ish percent. So a wide range. So that is not low acid, that's higher acid than than most oranges.
+
+[33:00] I would just treat it like orange juice, and then if it's too acidic, scale uh back. And by the way, the the bricks of it is also similar to orange juice. The bricks of the ones that they tested were in the range of uh about about 11 to about 12. Um so, and just use it wherever you would use. Um, if you use a a ratio of citric to malic, the same way for that's in the book, you can just look up the recipe on Amazon uh by going to look inside.
+
+[33:27] Um for orange juice, it's for every liter of orange juice, it's 32 grams of citric acid and uh four uh 32 grams of citric acid and 20 grams of malloc. You might want to scale it back a little, scale the citric back a little bit and see whether that's too acidic. But yeah, you can use it in any place you'd use lime, but you want a little bit of an orange head. It's good in margaritas, I like it. Any um, you know, I think it's good.
+
+[33:48] Um, so they're gonna kick us off the air. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You're gonna live tweet this freaking French fry nonsense.
+
+[33:56] I'm gonna live film it, and hopefully there will be some because I actually people haven't seen this in years. Um it'll be interesting. People haven't seen what what? Like the technique, and it's supposedly a new you're you're revamping the recipe. Well, the the the issue of the recipe is the issue of the recipe, and for those of you who've listened to any of this, know that it's all about the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[34:19] And so the technique that you use to get the ideal fry is going to depend like very much on the size of the French fry that you use. In the test that we ran at the French Culinary Institute, we were using a 3/8 inch fry. It when we moved to Sambar and we were thinking of putting the fries on the menu at Sambar, we moved to a half inch, which is why they weren't as crunchy because we need to use more of a um, we need to get more moisture out of it to get the crunch level at the level we wanted. Um I think the secret here is going to be in the blanching technique, which I'm changing. I'm gonna move to a par blanch and steam technique, I think.
+
+[34:55] Also, let us know if you like seeing behind the scenes videos or not. Because people enjoyed the face that you made when the spinzalls came back into stock. That wasn't behind the scenes. P.S. That's what spinzalls are back in stock, people.
+
+[35:07] Uh the new spinzalls are slightly different. Here's what we changed. The lid, you no longer need any of those black little like squidgy rubber parts. You still need the fins, obviously. Um all the parts for the new one fit the old one.
+
+[35:21] So if you need replacements, don't worry. We can replace all this stuff. What? Nothing. What?
+
+[35:26] Nothing. I'll talk to you about it afterward. You should if if you you have to say what it is. If you say it on air, you didn't have to talk about it. This is like this is why you have no boundaries.
+
+[35:34] You can't tell the difference between what you're supposed to talk about on a microphone or not. Because you're talking about something that's not related to the show, right? No, it is. All right. Just keep going.
+
+[35:40] Hold on a second. So then uh the other change we made uh was there's a hole now in the lid with a rubber stopper in it, I think. We I haven't seen one yet. So that those of you that have had your lid freeze on because you didn't clean the freaking thing properly, and you let it dry with sugar on the bearing, and then we're not able to get the lid off of the spinzall. It's now easy to fix that problem by pulling the plug out, putting a little bit of hot water and unfreezing it.
+
+[36:03] Nastasi and I yesterday made a video about how to fix this on an older generation spinzall. Also, any of you that have frozen the interlock shut with because you let uh fruit juice get into your interlock system. Nastasi and I have a video now that you can get from Matthew to tell you how to fix that problem. And any of you that have let that like have tried to run it without the uh gasket on the bottom of it and have let fruit juice leak into the motor so that the motor shaft doesn't spin anymore. I also have a video on how to fix that problem.
+
+[36:31] So today we are your spinzall selling fixing people, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to the Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[36:57] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com forward slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[37:17] Subscribe to the shows that you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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@@ -0,0 +1,505 @@
+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Emmy Cheese, specialty cheese from Switzerland made with heart and passion. For more information, visit M E USA.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're exploring the culinary wonders of urban New Jersey with a tour through Newark. We speak to Frank Mentisana at Phillips Academy Public Charter School. This idea of family style and made from scratch lunches continues to be a bit of an anomaly in the city.
+
+[0:30] We also hear from Gil Speyer from All Points West Distillery. Newark used to have an incredibly rich beverage alcohol history. And we'll tour Arrow Farms, the world's largest indoor vertical farm. We're going using 390 times more productivity than field farming and 95% less water. Tune in to this week's Meet and Three on Heritage Radio Network to be amazed at the wonders of Newark.
+
+[0:55] That's Meet Plus Sign T H R E E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. I don't know, I don't really know. This time, Nastasia. We were waiting for the computer, not the other way around.
+
+[1:20] At like 1210, yeah. At like 1208, you freak. Uh from Robert's PC in Bushwick, Mr Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[1:29] Got Matt in the booth. Hey, hey, hey. And special guest today, Nick Morganstern. How are you doing? I'm doing great.
+
+[1:34] How are you? So uh you are the founder, proprietor of Morgan Stern's Ice Creams, and uh and what else? Why don't you tell tell people about yourself here? That's it. I got two stores in New York.
+
+[1:45] I got rid of all my other uh ventures last year. So I got uh Morgan Stern's finest ice cream originally at uh two Rivington, and then I got the new store at 88 West Houston. So, what's the difference between the two crowds on those uh in those two areas? I mean, because they're somewhat close to each other, but really they're completely different neighborhoods. I think they're definitely close and uh concerned about cannibalization on the old store with the new store, but um we haven't seen any of that.
+
+[2:08] So there's die hard fans of the old store and they like it for different reasons. The new store is much larger and offers a lot of other things that the little one doesn't, but the little one is maybe easier to access, and it is a different neighborhood. Yeah. So now why don't you describe your uh you know, so we've talked about ice cream on air here a bunch. Uh you know, people always write in and we're like the Italian stuff is like super heavy stabilized.
+
+[2:34] Don't let them lie to you and say it's not like a lot of the Italian stuff, not saying all the Italian stuff. A lot of the stuff super heavy, super heavy stabilized, super heavy saturated colors, like a lot of flavoring to overcome the maximum amount of stabilization. And by the way, I find that stuff to taste good. I enjoy it. Uh then you have other people on the other end of the spectrum.
+
+[2:53] Uh we've talked about uh, you know, a you use of eggs and temperature of pasteurization and whether you cook it long enough to get the texturizing effect of cooked eggs or just do minimal pasteurization so you don't get that egg, blah, blah, blah. We've done all this stuff. So just to give you like that kind of background of stuff we've already discussed, where do you fit? And then if you want to talk about, for instance, like old school Aglis, like Philly style, go ahead. If you want to talk about, we've talked about lack of stabilization and the way Briars used to be and how it doesn't last in a freezer case, yada yada.
+
+[3:24] So just give us some give us some uh some uh philosophy of ice cream. Some details. So for us, um we don't use eggs in any of our ice cream unless it is an egg-flavored ice cream. So we have 88 flavors on our menu at our flagship location now. And of those 88, two of them have eggs.
+
+[3:39] One is an American custard, which is custard style ice cream, and then we have a French vanilla, which is a vanilla ice cream that's made in a creme anglaise style. So everything else is made no eggs. It's um cream, milk, sugar, uh, salt, every recipe has salt, and then there's gonna be a little bit of uh milk powder and a little bit of glucose, and that's it. And then whatever the flavoring is. No stabilizers.
+
+[4:00] No stabilizers. Okay. So but does this mean that you but do you do you do you do wholesale at all to people or no? Very little. Only to my friends.
+
+[4:08] Is that why? Because of the lack of stabilizing, you don't trust people to keep it properly? Wholesale's not really a part of my model. This is not like for what we do as a business and and how we want to bring the product to the consumer. Um I sell to people who really get what we do, who really want to have it, and they handle it the same way that we do, but they also are an extension of our brand because of the way that they talk about our product in the store and the way that they get it to the customer the same way.
+
+[4:36] So nothing against like there's certainly business in New York to be done with wholesale ice cream, but that's just not the direction that I'm going, and it's just not really it's not what I want to do. So by the way, call in your ice cream-related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128, or shoot them over to the chat room, and Matt'll read them out. Uh now, so would you consider then yourself like like where do you where do you come to this style of ice cream? Do you come from a Philly style background, or is it just this is where you arrived?
+
+[5:10] Like I describe how you got to this place. Um worked as a pastry chef for a long time, made a lot of ice cream, mostly creme anglais style, like that would have been done in in fine dining restaurants where you're making pretty small recipes, pretty small batches. So you have a lot of control over the process, and that's the way that I was trained to do it. Um started to explore non-eg product in maybe like 2006, 2007, when we were getting unpasteurized raw milk by the gallon um from Four Story Hill Farms. They were bringing it to us just on the side.
+
+[5:48] I probably shouldn't blow them up, but it was a long time ago. Right, right. And so you know you could theoretically buy it now if you went up to them and bought it. Or Connecticut, you can go ahead and get it up there. This stuff that they were bringing us was still warm, and so it was like very, very fresh.
+
+[6:02] And they were producing uh they weren't producing it, they were putting it into a jug just to bring to us. So the so we were just getting one gallon from one cow, and they would say this is really delicious, and check it out. And so um we started to try and figure out can we just make an ice cream that just tastes like this milk? And so that was the beginning for me of going down the path of not doing any of the ice creams um with egg. I never when I was working for other chefs, there would be recipes that maybe had a stabilizer or maybe didn't.
+
+[6:32] I was, you know, following their recipes. As soon as I was making my own stuff, we weren't using stabilizers. I find that stabilizers just really inhibit the flavor release. Uh bottom line. Well, I mean, they I mean, for those of you that don't do a lot of work with thickeners and stabilizers, it is just for sure true fact that anything, anything that thickens or stabilizes does inhibit flavor release.
+
+[6:56] Especially if it's cold. Yeah, it's just a question of how much does it inhibit flavor release and what is the flavor release. That's why industrially, and I'm not saying that as a negative about that stuff, because I use that stuff all the time. I'm for it, but it's just known that in fact they they rate different thickeners on how much they release and/or mask uh uh the flavors of the of the of the product. So our challenge every single day, we make really small recipes, we make a lot of them every day.
+
+[7:27] Um, is to make sure that we're you know following the process, which isn't that complicated, but it does have steps that need to be followed in order for us to make sure that we get the consistency of the product that we want, that it's smooth and creamy without using stabilizers, and then we've sort of built um systems and equipment around the desired result to get us there. So oh wait, so so uh so talk well. We should eat you have ice cream here while you're opening it up. By the way, uh note uh listeners detest mouth noises. Which listeners?
+
+[7:58] Like, I don't know. Some of them are like violent about it. They're I hate it. They threaten, you know, they threatened us, threatened us. I've been on audio things before where they really want you to get mouth noises.
+
+[8:09] Yeah, our listeners we have a separate show for that. Can we do that? Mouth mouth noise issues where we have actually already pitched that. What do they call that? The people that are into the weird, like putting your face in the bread or um the weird, like repetitive um, so is that internet thing, right?
+
+[8:25] Yeah, what's the ASMR? There we go. ASMR. Can we have noise ASMR? I have actually pitched that show to heritage already.
+
+[8:32] And did they say yes or no? They said yes, and then I was like, I don't actually really want to do that. Let's start it right now. Okay. So what so we'll take a whiff.
+
+[8:38] So what what flavor is this? Take a whiff. So what do you think? It's like passion. What is this?
+
+[8:45] Durian durian. It's got that funky sulfur smell. That's durian with banana. Don't start with that though. That's gonna blow you out.
+
+[8:53] All right, don't I won't start with it? Jesus. I usually you know, durian, though, like, has such a high solids content that I'm sure that adds its own creaminess. We have to adjust for that all the time. That's a that's a good segue.
+
+[9:05] The this product that I have here, uh Stone Beyond Belief, Action Bronson's second cookbook. We made an ice cream sandwich with him. This is the first time that we've done mass production of a sandwich, and we do it all by hand in the store. And the flavor that he wanted the ice cream to be was banana pudding. So we make banana pudding.
+
+[9:23] So this has egg in it. It also has stabilizer of cornstarch and all the things that would otherwise go into a banana pudding, and then tons of banana. Banana is a terrific stabilizer for ice cream naturally. What's the what's the banana pudding of record? Mighty fine.
+
+[9:38] Well, I mean, it probably would be jello. Jell-O? But we didn't even really go there. Um I don't I mean, I have banana pudding recipes, but I actually went to the New York Times Melissa Clark. Oh, really?
+
+[9:49] We tested a few recipes. She's strong. She's strong. 100%. 100%.
+
+[9:52] She's got a lot of, she's got she got more time in on testing that stuff than we do. She does it in her house too. My mom's 1970s doctored cake. Did I talk about this in there already? So, like, my mom has we have one doctored cake recipe.
+
+[10:07] Like Sandy. Well, it's like, so a thing now, there's whole shows built around it, is taking boxed cake mixes and doing crap to them. And there we're like, look, I made it! I made this. So like I mean, listen, the cake box mix is just a blend of things that you could put together yourself in theory.
+
+[10:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah, more or less. But like, I mean, look, they're technological marvels. But anyway, so like in my family, to this day, reaching back to the 70s, I believe from Sunset Magazine, which was a powerhouse back in the 70s. Yeah, we still in the family have a doctored box cake that we still make. I still make to this day.
+
+[10:47] She made back then? She made back then. Oh wow. It was my favorite cake growing up. What is it?
+
+[10:52] I have taught it. I have taught Dax how to make it. Dax now makes it on his own. How old is Dax? He now is 14.
+
+[10:58] Oh wow. When did you teach him how to do that? Like when he was like 10 or 11. Oh, cool. Yeah.
+
+[11:03] And you picked it up back then. Well, I picked it up when I was like. He picked it up at 10. Oh, yeah, yeah. My mom made it again, because I was like, it was my birthday.
+
+[11:10] And I was like, Yo, mom, make that a sherry cake, make a sherry cake. And so, like, my mom made it. Well, so it's like, first of all, how 70s this is, Harvey's Bristol Cream Sherry. Love it. Which is PS delicious.
+
+[11:21] Delicious. Like Harvey's Bristol Cream, don't hate. Delicious. Come on. And especially in cooking and baking, it's like so good.
+
+[11:29] Industrial food is delicious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's people that are very skilled at making sure that it's delicious again and again. So here's how this recipe works, right? I won't give you the full secrets because I told my mom I wouldn't give out the full recipe, but you get your standard yellow cake mix, right?
+
+[11:44] Then you put in a box uh, you know, a bag or a box, however you call it, of lemon pudding. Lemon pudding. Lemon pudding mix. Lemon pudding mix. Okay.
+
+[11:54] Right? Put it directly into the boxing. Then you put the eggs and stuff, but then not milk, not milk. Harvey's Bristol Cream Sherry as the liquid. Swap it out.
+
+[12:03] Yeah. As the liquid. Yep. Yep. Right?
+
+[12:04] And then you make that. It's gonna make it soft, tender. Come on, forget it. It's pretty delicious. Typically, in typically traditionally in 70s style, in a bunt form, but we do also flat cakes and what else.
+
+[12:15] I love a bunt. Then it comes out, you do the forkity fork on the top, and then orange glaze over that sucker. Orange powder sugar glazed. With a little more Harveys in there, or no, that that means it would be good. It might be Gilding Lily.
+
+[12:27] I've never tested, I've only followed the strictly the 1970s. Yeah, kind of program. I got it. I like it. And yeah, I'll tell you what, first of all, me personally, not an icing guy, I'm a glaze guy.
+
+[12:37] Just so you know. Okay, got it. I'm a glaze guy, not an icing guy. And I love a glaze. Morning pastries, all of the I mean, like, you know, in donuts, like glaze and icing kind of they kind of merge into that thick glaze.
+
+[12:50] I guess I'm thinking fillings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like fillings. So here's the thing. And uh if you had gay handed me a cake with icing or a pie, I would take pie.
+
+[13:01] If you handed me a glazed cake or pie, I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is tough. This is a hard problem. You've now made the problem difficult. Understood.
+
+[13:10] Okay, I got it. All right, I got you. Also, I put whipped cream on absolutely everything. Everything. Including, and you might hate on this because my sister-in-law Miley, who runs the Food Network magazine, Miley Carpenter, she's the founder of the Food Network magazine.
+
+[13:22] Before that was founded Rachel Ray's magazine, before that, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, credibility. Has some creds. And whatever you think of Rachel Ray, by the way, that magazine launched huge. Right.
+
+[13:31] That was back in the day. Whatever. So uh she does not, first of all, I hate to blow her stuff up here. Not a giant fan of whipped cream in general, which is bizarre to me because is there anything really like whipped cream is like second only to ice cream. Well, that's the thing.
+
+[13:46] So I put whipped cream on ice cream. Not just in Sunday format, which we're gonna talk about in a little bit, but I put whipped cream on ice cream just as a matter of course. I listen as a purveyor of ice cream in New York City, I can say you are you are not in the minority on that one. There you go. We sell a lot of ice cream with whipped cream on top.
+
+[14:01] She thinks it's she thinks it's gilding the lily. Here's how I feel. Ice cream is the denser format. Then it becomes more airy as you go into whipped cream into air, up to God. We gotta talk about the different types of whipped cream and how close to God they are.
+
+[14:13] Well, okay. So are you Swedish and do your non-sweetened whipped cream? I'm an American, so I put sugar and vanilla in my whipped cream. Oh, you think that's American? Well, I think that's how I that's uh because it's the most like cool whip.
+
+[14:24] It's the most like cooling. Ah, okay. So we're going cool whip direction with it then. Do you like woo-whip? Cool is delicious.
+
+[14:28] Listen, first of all, I feel we just stop and clear it for a second. You're tiptoeing around whether or not I might like or not like a lot of these industrialized things that you're dropping in the hat here. And I love it all. And I'll tell you, just to clear it right now, number one favorite ice cream experience in the world for me, Bertillon on the Ille Saint-Louis in Paris, number one. Um, number two, I really love going to Jaliti in Rome, which is like this massive ice cream shop, Giolato Girlotteria that's in downtown Rome that's like a total Italian shit show.
+
+[14:59] Product is delicious. Always get it conpana with whipped cream on top and a big cone. Um, but it's a tourist disaster. And if you go there as an American, be prepared to be pushed out of the way by multiple Italians while you're in line. They will cut in front of you and order in Italian in front of you.
+
+[15:13] That's the experience. Um Dairy Queen. Oh. In order. Well, what era of Dairy Queen?
+
+[15:21] Um, I still it's tricky now because I go to I when I'm on a road trip, I'll go, and there's still a few franchises that are outside of the Berkshire Hathaway conglomerate that have they predated, so they're still allowed to operate on their own. And finding them, you can Google it. They're not Dairy Queen doesn't really want you to know that those things are out there, but there's a few up in the Midwest that are still doing it the way that they were doing it. They don't have to necessarily use all the proprietary stuff from Dairy Queen, but I still I still love a peanut butter parfait. I really do.
+
+[15:50] No, I really do think that that combination of things, it's such a simple interpretation of a hot tin roof, which is just vanilla ice cream, peanuts, chocolate sauce. That's all you need. And if you can get those things in an unadulterated format and taste them all together, they truly are almost like the holy trinity of an ice cream sundae experience. What are your thoughts on the blizzard as a technological marvel? I like the blizzard as an idea as a concept.
+
+[16:15] I think in execution and what they're doing now, it's got so much other stuff in it that it can the dis the time frame between when you're eating, enjoying and having the experience, and then when you're feeling really bad has gotten shorter and shorter the more stuff they put in it. Right. I mean Blizz Blizzards and whatever you call them now have gone artisanal. Now, Kith at the new Hudson Yard has those blizzard machines that look like a have you seen these machines that look like like earth-digging augers? That's exactly what it is, yeah.
+
+[16:42] They're cool. The machines are cool. Those machines are dope. I would love to feed myself. Those are created for a very specific purpose, which is that they make these conical cups that you can put the little frozen packet into, and you just throw it in the canister, and that that digger thing goes down in there and then pulls it back out, and you get something that's sort of like soft surf.
+
+[17:03] Yeah. So they've really taken any variable out of it. And managing and running a soft surf machine has its own complexity and issues. So this is like pretty, I don't want to say dumbed down, but it is. They're smart.
+
+[17:13] Those machines are smart. They are smart. They're like they have to self-wash because they're such a free freaking crap show of mess with all those blade. But they have like the sanitizing solution in a chamber. It's nuts.
+
+[17:25] And the like the little uh evacuation valve at the bottom of them. Well, you know what texture they get? If they don't get soft served to me, they get um uh fro the remember the frosty from like that kind of texture. But those all are still sort of falling into that category between like liquid and frozen right in the middle. Very desirable.
+
+[17:43] We're getting to liquid here with one of these. Listen, take a little bit. What are we what are we eating? Okay, so we'll start off with a flavor that we created a long time ago when I was running a restaurant in Brooklyn and I had my first ice cream cart. This is salted chocolate ice cream, and so um really simple.
+
+[18:01] Give me what you what you just tasted. It but is there I mean, is it just my mind is also going to like Heath and Caramel? Or is there so crazy you said that? There's a lady who's a regular regular at my store, and on Saturday, she she grabs me and wants to talk to me all the time. She loves the product, and she was like, I've always been you know eating this other one, and then I eat this one, and she was kind of like really getting into it with some of my counter staff, and she was like, There's gotta be caramel in there.
+
+[18:27] And the staff's like, I got the recipe list right in front of me. Like, there's no caramel in this flavor, and then I came up there, he's like, I want to talk to her, and then she's like, and I said, No, there's no caramel in that. It's interesting that you say that though, because there is some of that, I think it's almost more like a butterscotchy kind of flavor that's going on there. So that's a relatively high cocoa content milk chocolate, uh, 38% single origin. We buy all of our chocolate from uh Falkland, which is a Swiss company that's been family owned for 120 some years.
+
+[18:56] Um and I just think that what they do as far as how they process and and stick with the script on what they want to do with their product is this is so consistent. I've been eating this in pistol form as my midnight snack in the store when I'm there late for 20 years. I've been buying from these guys, and it I know when it tastes different. They'll send me other stuff in this. They sent me a 36% last week.
+
+[19:18] No, no, it's not it. I've been eating the 36% for like a week, and I'm like, this is not gonna work. You're not getting addicted to it. Not in this, but this has a specific flavor profile to it. So, anyway, so do you think it's the you think it's the milk powder in the milk chocolate that's giving it the caramel note?
+
+[19:32] A combination of things. It's also that that profile. So I'm not gonna give you all of the details of our recipes, but very close ratio of cream to milk. So Nastasia hates families, by the way. When you said family own, she's like, you lost it.
+
+[19:46] What are you talking about? Well, please explain, Nastassi. Why is he saying that? There's an anecdote. I don't understand.
+
+[19:54] Matthew, back me up on this. Dave, I hate families. What are you talking about? Only families you know. That's insane.
+
+[20:00] Anyway. Could be. Uh wait. So speaking of close milk to cream ratio, then first of all, let's go back to what kind of machines you use, and how do you because like everyone when they go high on cream, by the way, I love high cream like butter fat, yeah. Yeah, like uh recipes.
+
+[20:15] Everyone's like, you're gonna overturn it, it's gonna turn to butter. Can do, can do. Because the texture on this is fantastic, by the way. And but what is the lifetime of something like this? I get 90 days, but that's um our walk-in freezer functions like a blast freezer, which is pretty crazy.
+
+[20:29] So there's not a lot of movement up or down. If you had this in a normal freezer, what would you say the life was? A home, a home jerk freezer, a right-aid freezer. Three weeks max. What's this guy?
+
+[20:41] What am I eating on here? We call this dusty janduya because it has a lot of cocoa powder in it. If I find Jan Duya hazelnut chocolate made with hazelnut oil, I love Jan Duya, but it's very sweet, typically very sweet. And um, we strive for as low sugar content in our product as we can have with still maintaining the texture and consistency. I find sugar, try to use sugar the way that a savory cook uses salt.
+
+[21:04] So it like it tends to add, it can add to the flavor profile of something. People want sugar when they're eating ice cream, obviously, they want something to be sweet. Um so we add quite a bit of cocoa powder to this. I don't use cocoa powder very much. Um we use it to make fudge.
+
+[21:18] We use it in our chocolate chocolate ice cream, which I didn't bring you. I should have. I was in a little bit of a hurry when I was packing the cooler for this. Um, and so I think that the cocoa powder in this kind of balances texture wise, this is not quite as warm as the salted chocolate. I brought this in a cooler, that big cooler behind you with a little piece of dry ice in it, so I think the pints were kind of shuffling around in there, but I still think you're getting something here.
+
+[21:42] Sorry for all those um eating noises on um. Today's program was brought to you by Emmy Cheese, specialty cheese from Switzerland made with heart and passion. Since the early 1900s, Emmy has been a passionate supporter of farmers, cheesemakers, and family tradition. They believe in sustainable agriculture and respect for the people, land, and animals that make their business possible. Remaining dedicated to tradition, they strive to lead the industry in innovation, ensuring they bring you only the highest quality, best tasting cheese from Switzerland.
+
+[22:23] Emmy is best known for importing more than 80% of Swiss Grier into the United States, but that's not to overshadow their other specialty cheeses, including cottbalt cave age cheeses, appenzeller, tete monitional Emman Toller. For more information, visit M E USA.com. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Andrew Friedman, and I'm the host of Andrew Talks to Chefs here on HRM.
+
+[22:51] Every week I interview a diverse cross section of the best and biggest names in professional cooking. Give a listen and get to know all about the inner lives of chefs. You can find Andrew Talks to Chefs wherever you listen to podcasts and on HeritageRadio Network.org. I was going to ask you about something off the subject real quick. An employee of mine has bananaphobia.
+
+[23:16] Right. What do you mean? Afraid of bananas? Just like can't deal with it. Right, right.
+
+[23:21] All aspects of the banana. Like the way it looks, can't deal with the smell. But most importantly. I'm not gonna say, actually, I'm not gonna get into the gender. Um, cannot deal absolute no fly is the sound of someone eating a banana.
+
+[23:39] Really? Can't handle it. Well, does it matter what okay? What is this person's? We don't know the gender.
+
+[23:44] What is this person's feelings on plantains? I didn't get that far. So, like, first you have to like there's a lot of cultural things. There's like the sweetness, there's like the obvious sexual uh references. None of that.
+
+[23:55] There's the maybe afraid of slipping on a banana peel. Like, then there's like how ripe is the banana? You know what I mean? Like the whole thing is a no fly zone for this person. Is this person?
+
+[24:06] Did they eat an underripe banana and that taste of cement? Do they not like nail polish? There was, I think that what I got out of it was there was an issue where they were forced to eat bananas for breakfast as a child. So just a mental issue. I mean the mental, it's deep.
+
+[24:18] Yeah, yeah. I'm saying, like, you know, this is like a clockwork orange kind of a thing. This person can no longer listen to Beethoven while eating. What's this guy? That's a tricky one.
+
+[24:28] That has olive oil and orange in it. Chocolate with olive oil and orange. That's quite delicious. But getting that texture of speaking of overrunning, the olive oil really does not want to c cooperate when it gets cold. As you can it's so weird.
+
+[24:41] The uh, well, you know, fate that was famous. Uh the olive oil, the olive oil gelato at uh Babo was like the most like everyone was like, how you do it? And they're like, why don't you crap off? You know what I mean? That was always the answer, but like um what's interesting is that the the mixture with the oil, the orange almost takes on green notes.
+
+[25:03] I agree. Well, the I will tell you the olive oil is very young and it's from chili. It's very spicy. It's from Grove and Vine, um, Nick Coleman, who was formerly uh oleologist for the BMB group. That's a gross word, right?
+
+[25:13] Oleologist? Yeah. I kind of like it now, but because I know him and I really like him. If you haven't talked to him, you should get him on here. He's a weirdo.
+
+[25:21] No, he's not. I don't think he's a weirdo at all. He likes family, so he's written out for the things. He's a brilliant guy, super kind, and really knows his stuff, and he loves it. I mean, he loves his olive oil game, is heavy.
+
+[25:35] Um so so back to Coco for one second. Sure. Do you what's your theory on um cookout on stuff? Do you cook the do you like do a uh cook on the milk with the cocoa powder to get it in? Or how do you just soak it forever and then blend it?
+
+[25:49] Like, what's your theory on this stuff? So for the chocolate ice creams, everything gets tempered in um milk powder, sugar, and cocoa powder in this case, and salt, and then it goes back in pasteurized to 180, and then it's pulled off and it's done. That's it. Full batch. So you're heating the cream too?
+
+[26:03] Oh, yeah. Now, are you uh we don't heat the milk? Don't you heat the cream, not the milk? Yep. So, oh, because you want the flavor of that of that.
+
+[26:10] Exactly. Got it. You got it. And it does change it. I have heard many things, including from uh was it a stolting rep, or was it one of the Italian people?
+
+[26:20] But uh so that for those of you that don't care, I apologize. But why are they listening if they don't care? Right. Well, there are various theories about how long you have to wait if you are going to pasteurize and or heat something, then how long you should wait before you spin the product after you chill it back down, because the theory goes that uh the fat crystals will agglomerate in different ways and you will get a different final texture. I find so little evidence to support this, dude.
+
+[26:47] Right, but this is a lot of talking. And we're like, is that it's not we can't find enough evidence to suggest. I'm just telling you, in our experience. There's an Italian guy who I met at a trade show whose name I forget, and I can't remember whether he was working for a German, but he was Italian. And what he said was that if you spin it right, if you basically he was pushing a machine, I he was one of these machines where it went direct from pasteurized to chill.
+
+[27:16] Yep. And he was like, if you chill it right away, right the hell away after you do your pasteurization, then it's just as good as aging it. He was against any sort of in-between stuff. That's probably just because he was selling a machine that did it right away. You're saying that it doesn't matter one way or the other.
+
+[27:31] Well, the I think that for us, uh part of the challenge for us when we're running a business is you know, is the juice worth the squeeze in general? So like the steps that we take, are they going to yield a result for our consumer that they're gonna want it? Like that they get it and they understand it. And there's times where we pull things because we're like, we're doing all this work for this thing. I'll give you an example.
+
+[27:50] We have a peanut, like a peanut praline ice cream that we use these crazy peanuts from uh San Antonio, Texas, they're called Picosos. And uh what are they like compared to like a Virginia peanut? Are they big like a Virginia peanut? Are they trying to? Spanish redskin, salted, hand roasted.
+
+[28:05] I it's my favorite, and I do think for me that's we're gonna get in a peanut fight now, but go ahead. That's all right. I mean, you can have your opinion over there, and I can have mine, and we can live in the same space. It's gonna work out. Not true.
+
+[28:16] And if you want to bring your own peanuts to the store, I'll put them on the Sunday for you. I'm not mad at that, especially if it's like that's your peanut. For me, the picoso is the ideal peanut for a hot tin roof Sunday. You like a small peanut. I do.
+
+[28:30] I do like a small peanut. I'm not afraid to say that. Um the so we were making a praline with that and then grinding it and doing all this crazy work to make the ice cream, and at the end of the day, number one, the ice cream wasn't selling very well. And number two, you know, you taste it and eat it, and you say, uh, is this is this translating? It wasn't really translating.
+
+[28:49] Well, so we're doing all this work downstairs to do this thing, and it's not really getting delivered to the consumer. And I think you gotta have experience with that with what you do behind. Oh, I hate it so much. I hate it so much. I there's whole categories of things I won't do, such as uh high high proof, super chill carbonated work, or like there's a like uh you work real hard on flavors and people don't get it, and it's uh for me, it's not even just that it's not worth the it hurts me that people don't appreciate something that I think is good and that takes a lot of work, and so it's less heartache just to not do it.
+
+[29:23] Agreed, or especially if something's a lot of work and you're worried that it can slip because you're yeah, you're not on top of it all the time. It's gonna slip. It's just it's a complete heartache. What do you what do you what do you what what is this? What are we waiting?
+
+[29:38] You say clean it off with my spit, lick the goddamn. We got more spoons. Um we'll go to the banana flavor. So that one is banana that has just a little bit of calamancy in it. Which is a fun word.
+
+[29:53] Calamancy. Yeah. People have a hard time with that word, actually, on our menu. What is that? Calamancy?
+
+[29:58] Calamancy. So this is a much different texture. Yeah, totally. This has got like a it's all that banana. Banana ripeness.
+
+[30:06] So she won't make it. If you're making it. You're pushing this into a gender thing again. That was a mistake. It was not a mistake.
+
+[30:14] You don't make mistakes. Well, I don't even remember that. Okay, try the durian banana now right off the back of the bottom. I should say, you don't make that kind of mistake. You assume it's a woman.
+
+[30:25] Yeah. No, I would just pick one to see if he was funny. Why would you assume that? She's just trying to rally you. Don't let her value.
+
+[30:33] By the way, I saw Matt moving back there. Do we have a question or something? Yeah, Matt, what were you trying to tell us? He's trying to tell me not to do something. I think I was trying to tell him not to uh beat up.
+
+[30:41] Don't touch the microphone. Get so handsy with the mic. Oh, oh, well. Yeah, it was around the small peanut comment. Um, we small peanuts make you handsy with the mic, huh?
+
+[30:50] You do have a question that might be a little adjacent to the topic, but we could we could go for it. Um Tyler tweeted this in a while back. He was wondering do you know anywhere to buy less than one pound of tycoloid 210? Ticaloid. Ticaloid 210.
+
+[31:06] Uh that is adjacent. We were talking about stabilizers. Uh no. Uh Dave, do you have any ticloid on hand? Uh in my pocket.
+
+[31:16] No, actually, you know, we okay, so this is a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan that uh I use because um when you're making syrups like like specifically oil-based syrups or butter syrups that need to withstand immediate agitation. Yeah, agitation, dilution, and simultaneous like chilling with the with the fats. It's a huge pain in the butt, and ticaloid can do almost everything except coconut fat. It nothing that I have. This is why you just buy Coco Lopez.
+
+[31:48] Yep. Which nostassias kind of like you're the Coco Lopez of people. So like it it won't break no matter how hard you push Coco Lopez, but Ticoloid is like a good second best. Um I don't know of a place you can buy small amounts of it, but uh I have it I have published somewhere, someone remind me before the show, I'll look up of the uh a good starting ratio of gum arabic to Xanthan to use to make your own thing. I will say that So you're making your own, in other words.
+
+[32:16] Yeah, nowadays. I don't remember what the ratio is because it's been a long time. We don't have any butter syrup on the menu right now. Okay. Um because actually I had a bartender who was afraid of butter syrup back at Booker and Dak's days, afraid of it.
+
+[32:29] Why? Wait, tell the story. I'm not gonna tell the story. He was having he's actually over at my house uh on Sunday. No, I I'm not gonna tell the story because it's a family show and it's not a good thing.
+
+[32:40] We're running out of time, and the amount of time you spend arguing about whether to tell the story or not is the amount of time we would tell you. That's like 30% of any given episode. Yeah. Also, uh speaking of stories, we're not gonna have time because we have a lot to talk about this week. But can I just make a suggestion?
+
+[32:53] Yeah. Can't you just break off like four ounces of ticaloid for this guy and send it to him? No, no, we uh now make our own. So make some for him and send it to us. I'll find out that I'll find out the rest of the ratio.
+
+[33:02] I gotta remember the ratio. But his other his secondary question was are there other good uses for large quantities of the stuff? I mean, he's just gonna come up with the. I mean, like it was like i any sort of any sort of syrup with oil in it, though. Like, like if that comes up for you a lot.
+
+[33:18] I mean, we ran through all of ours and then we had to, you know, make more after, you know, because you can buy it from from T I C, but the point is, I now even forget what I was gonna say. I was gonna give a suggestion. Have I ever told the puke punch story on the air? It's not really my story to tell. No.
+
+[33:36] All right. Next time. We don't have a lot of time because we're talking about other stuff. What do I have in my on my spoon right now? My fresh spoon.
+
+[33:44] Strawberry with pistachio pesto added into it. It's good. Nice. I like that combo. That's very popular.
+
+[33:50] People really like that flavor. Now, on durian. Two well, two things. On durian, I've noticed that most of the durian you get in the US of A has been, even if it's still a whole durian, has been pre-frozen. Not frozen.
+
+[34:07] Or it's not as stinky after you freeze it. It's like 50%. Yeah, yeah. And therefore, not as stinky. Not as therefore, for for us western folk, it more apparently.
+
+[34:18] Palatable. It's a diluted version of something that's extreme. I agree. Did you say diluted or diluted? Or both.
+
+[34:24] I had ice cream in my mouth. Yeah. Diluted. Um the I tell you, I've told people on this on air a million times. I once made a durian caramel by accident.
+
+[34:33] I was never able to recreate it. It was a mistake and a pressure cooker. I was pressure cooking to try to see whether I could dull durian even more by pressure cooking. Wow. And I hadn't controlled uh because I was using at the time a non uh a venting pressure cooker, so it was shooting off moisture and the temperature was going up, and I stopped it at just this perfect point where it came out like a caramel and it was rich and durian but not stinky.
+
+[34:57] Then I tried for the next like two, three weeks to try to do it again. I could never close. No. Not even close. Never even got close.
+
+[35:06] Oh, it's just one of those flukes. Yeah, yeah. And then like that's why that's why I tell people, you know, you could do the best thing of your life, and if you didn't write down everything you did. Yep. We deal with this all the time, man.
+
+[35:16] Take a keeping the notes. Our binders are crazy in the store. And then keep update. We update on the minute. I'm like, put it in the computer's in the kitchen and put it in in print and shred the old one and put it back in.
+
+[35:26] Because you can't, it's like things get too all over the place all the time. It's really difficult. It's really challenging. And we're adjusting all the time. Things change, and we don't have those same.
+
+[35:36] We're not if we're not using any stabilizers, then just dealing with the equipment. The store is brand new, and we're just like learning how to make sure that everything's coming out consistently. So there are changes that need to be made on the fly, and then the cook does it, and then we're like, Did you write it? And they're like, I wrote it in my book, and my book's in my car. You know, this kind of thing.
+
+[35:52] So we try to keep that stuff recorded. It's really important. Oh, yeah. If you didn't record it, then you should get punched. Yeah, and the value of the time that you spend the first time and then the second time trying to remember it and trying to like recreate it and all that stuff.
+
+[36:04] It's like evaporated, it's gone. Yeah, and we're Nastasia and I are actually terrible at it. This is one thing we tell other people to do, we're terrible at it. The other one we say is if you if you have time to to lean, you're gonna die. You should be writing the notes on what we've been doing this whole time.
+
+[36:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You guys have a strong human resources department. Uh okay, wait.
+
+[36:28] Now, uh okay. Before I forget, you you said beforehand that you're involved in it in a charity thing you want to talk about. Talk about it. Oh, we I just I brought you I purchased from my store two articles of clothing for you guys, which is a t shirt that we created this year with St. John's bread and life.
+
+[36:44] That's your shirt right there, Dave. I got you a large. I think that's the right size for you. Um so I was explaining to Nastasia that we get approached by a lot of different uh I like those guys, by the way. Who?
+
+[36:54] St. John's? Yeah. They're it's amazing. I know that I know they're architects.
+
+[36:57] Oh, really? My wife used to work with uh what used to be Rogers Marvel architects now. Yeah, and so like they uh they were did a long bunch of architecture work for for them, and yeah, I like them. They're good people. So the woman who's running their culinary program over there, um, Millicent Soros, she spent a long time in the diner organization and has done a lot of different things in food um in the same industry that you and I find ourselves in and now has dedicated uh her time to helping the soup kitchen at St.
+
+[37:24] John's Bread and Life. Um get more organized. And you know, if you go into a soup kitchen that's producing tons and tons of food, more than most uh restaurants are producing, and they don't have the same uh experience or skill set that someone like you and I do um to understand how to do it better and understand how to be more efficient, more effective with it, and use the same ingredients that they get donated to them to make the food tastier, make the food healthier. So she's really doing something that's um it's extraordinary. And what they do every day, provide 3,000 hot meals in Brooklyn, is a crazy feat, if you can imagine, and they serve them out of their soup kitchen, they serve them out of trucks, and they do all kinds of things.
+
+[37:59] So for us this year, our entire initiative for any dollar that we're gonna raise goes to them. And so we made a shirt to help celebrate that, which is something that we've learned um over time. Um our in-house illustrator, Jessica Che, who does a lot of different stuff for us, incredibly talented, did uh brilliant illustration um of a bird eating a piece of pie. Millicent is very famous baker, wrote a book, How to Bake a Better Pie. Um, incredible, incredible baker, incredible chef, but really incredible baker.
+
+[38:24] She's got the hands. She just knows how to she just knows how to make it um grandma style. And so um pie a la mode being eaten by a pigeon. Uh it's not a pigeon, it's a raven. Raven.
+
+[38:35] Oh, it is? I love Corvid's. She's from Baltimore. Corvid's smartest of all birds, by the way. Like any of the Corvids are as smartest bird bird of it.
+
+[38:43] The thing is, like it's got a it's got a look in its eye, like it's got that pigeon look in its eye, which is why I thought it was a pigeon, but I like it better now. It's a raven because now I'm like, oh, it's smart. It's not pigeons are dumb. Millicent's no dummy. Yeah, so they believe me.
+
+[38:56] Here's the thing. Uh if uh a bird consumes caffeine, will that mess it up? Because it's got a piping hot thing of coffee here. As long as it's smoking a cigarette at the same time. It's doing great.
+
+[39:05] Well, like crush the cigarette out. It was like it tried it. It's like, I don't like this. Uh it's finished. I'm gonna eat the pie.
+
+[39:10] Yep. Cigarette and pies don't go. Uh it depends on where you're from. If you're in Baltimore, it might be something that's happening down there. Have you have you ever like uh tried like uh like what how does cigarettes and ice cream work?
+
+[39:21] Doesn't seem like that would work either. Although smoky ice cream works. I've had good smoking. Yeah, we've done some smoky ice cream. I'm not a smoker, so that activity is not something that I would be able to speak to.
+
+[39:31] Smoking a cigar and eating ice cream. But we do see customers at the new store. We have a big patio, they'll go out there and have that ritual of having their cigarette and having some ice cream outside. It's an indulgence. I I was never a smoker, but my grandparents and you know, my my aunt always were, so for me, the smell isn't the smell of the cigarette itself, it's the smell of old cigarettes.
+
+[39:55] Yes. And the space and the being in the house and all that stuff. They smoke, did they smoke in the house? Oh, yeah, in the car. Yeah, all that.
+
+[40:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that would be. So um, like to me, that's like the childhood memory of what smoke is.
+
+[40:09] I got one more thing for you. Let's do it. Ice cream sandwich. While you're opening this ice cream sandwich, let me ask you this. So, how do you avoid overturning on high butter fat recipes?
+
+[40:18] Or do you just like do you have to alter your machines, for instance? They're not high butter fat. I thought you said you did use uh like a a large ratio of a using lighter cream. Yeah, we use low butter fat cream, and we also keep our ratio adjusted based on sugar content. So we don't we have a very rarely do we have an overrun issue.
+
+[40:36] Very rarely does that happen where we're overturning. Yeah. Only on something like that olive oil chocolate where we've added that other fat to it and we're still kind of like playing with make sure. I feel like this one we tasted it and you're getting that flavor of the olive oil, but it's not um it's not predominant, and we couldn't really back down the olive oil any further than that than where it is right there. Wouldn't the olive oil?
+
+[40:56] I mean, I'm I don't know, I've never done it, but wouldn't the olive oil actually kind of protect protect against overturning because it would stop the butter from break. Olive oil will break out of it. Yeah, it'll break out of it. You you can't I mean you could you know take it apart with a microscope and be like, what broke? But it's broken.
+
+[41:10] The olive oil is separating out. So I broke this in half for you guys, it's soft enough. But just get a little bite. Um so this is uh the Axon Bronson ice cream sandwich. This has been very popular.
+
+[41:19] It's inspired by my favorite ice cream sandwich of all time, um, the It's It from San Francisco, where I'm from. Um, and so you have a little Nilla wafer there that we made in house. You have some banana caramel in there, the banana pudding ice cream, and then there's a chocolate shell on the outside of that thing. Um that's been pretty popular, this thing. It's really good.
+
+[41:38] This has been a uh this has been a hit. It's serious. That's a five ounce ice cream sandwich. It's a nightmare for your worker because the banana is very present and it creates noises when you eat it. So it's not a good scene.
+
+[41:53] Nowhere near it. Nowhere near it. Does he have to make them? Now now it's a disease. Now it's a heath.
+
+[41:59] Um, they do not have to make them. I'm getting better at that. So you know what? I think it's always better to use the uh the under uh ungendered third person anyway. It's very complicated though, it's tricky to do.
+
+[42:13] We're trying to remember that. It's it's not easy to do nowadays. Uh so we should talk a little bit about something that I think you can speak to, which is menu matrix. Um Morganstern's transacts so many people. That family showed.
+
+[42:41] Really? Yeah. Um I needed the expletive right there. That we over the weekend we probably transacted I don't know, it's something it's not even warm out yet, but it was over a thousand people. So there's a thousand experiences happening that have to happen really fast and that with the way that they interact with the menu is ultimately what defines whether they're gonna come back again or not.
+
+[43:00] I mean the product has to be good and all those other things, but with eighty-eight flavors on the menu, hopefully you have like enough choices that someone sees something that they have to have and something else that maybe they want to have the next time they come. That's a big part of how we, you know, get people hooked in and they want to keep coming back and try what we do. So when I went to the bar, I went to existing conditions two weeks ago and I saw that like you have a pretty substantial selection going on there. So it's no death and co, but yeah, we have a good idea. I'm not comparing I'm not I don't th I mean whether it's relative or not, just like objectively coming in and looking at it.
+
+[43:30] There was all I think it was the right amount. It wasn't overwhelming for me. Sometimes I go to places and I'm like, There's too much information, I can't make a choice. Which is what people say about Morgan Sterns quite a bit, but they do keep coming back. Well, do you bullet it out?
+
+[43:42] I mean, I think bulleting out is the main thing. If people can hone in on a chunk. Like this is like the problem. So when you say bullet, we categorize. Right.
+
+[43:50] Yeah. So it's like I think that I think overwhelm the like if you look at a Greek diner menu. You know what I mean? You're like, ah even and those are the same things. Well, if you look at the Shopsons menu.
+
+[44:01] I know I've never been. You should go. That's an important experience to have as a New Yorker man, really. I'm serious. I mean, I and I live right there.
+
+[44:08] You've been to Katz's. Oh, yeah. And like Katz's can have like you can you can be up or down or whatever it is, but I still love going to Second Avenue Delhi myself. I'm not from here, but those experiences, even when they're not good, they're great because they are so true to what they are and where they are. And so Shopson's is something.
+
+[44:24] I literally live two blocks from the Essex Street market. Got it. So it's like uh I'm right down there too. I live in the same neighborhood. Yeah.
+
+[44:30] I'm on Elizabeth Street now in Chinatown, but close. Yeah, for those of you that don't know New York, it's a very small we're talking about a very small radius. We're neighbors. We should be throwing rocks at each other. Well, there's not that many rocks around.
+
+[44:41] You have to break apart the sidewalk. I mean construction site. Yeah, we can throw pigeons. Um the Oh my construction site. Wait, so to me, I think um if you just list everything, then you're ruined.
+
+[44:54] You know what I mean? But if you bullet stuff out and people can be like, okay, like at our menu, it's you know, it's it's fundamentally like is it is it served on a r up on a rock, is it shaken, is it carbonated, is it non-alcoholic? And each one of those is only like somewhere between four and and eight drinks. And so it's easy to kind of consume sections. But you find that the consumer would rather um search by category on the that style versus the spirit.
+
+[45:24] Um, I mean for us, well I would say for us, because we're, you know, a group of people, so I won't speak for them. For me, um I don't I start more from what style of drink am I gonna have. I very rarely start with spirit. Okay. Uh me personally, which is weird because when you're when I'm talking to a guest, like what you you kind of have to because it's been beaten into you.
+
+[45:53] You ask them about spirit first. Whereas for me, I'm always like, Well, what are you looking for? Are you looking for something more refreshing? Are you looking for something more spirit forward? Because then I can say, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna push you to carbonated and stirred drinks, am I gonna push uh carbonated and shaking drinks, or am I gonna push you into stirred and and built drinks?
+
+[46:11] So I like that's where I and then and then I'm like, okay, are you looking for bitter? And then if I and if if they are not interested in having that kind of conversation, if I'm getting that vibe off them that I'm not interested, they're not interested in having that conversation with me. Then I'm like, okay, well, what spirits do you normally drink? Because like I clearly start also what ice cream do you usually like? Right, right, right.
+
+[46:32] But I do think I'd be really curious to see how it was for you guys there. You have a large menu and you have a big enough space where there's like enough volume running through there to say, what if you were categorizing by flavor profile, not by spirit, but like you have a lot of fruit representation on your menu, which is really cool for someone like me. A fruity guy. Great. And that's it's like it makes the experience um more it's kind of more fun to see that those flavors are coming through, and because of your knowledge and what you do and how um exacting you are for like pulling that stuff out, literally pulling out those flavors, then you know when you go there when you drink that drink, it's really gonna taste like that thing.
+
+[47:12] And I wonder if your consumer would respond to that if you were putting it out there in the category as far as the flavor profile. I don't know. It's interesting. If you put a banana category, if you put a citrus category and so on, would that, and then the spirit comes next, and the style is listed that way. There's any number of ways, obviously, to like organize the information.
+
+[47:29] I remember we had the fight when we were starting. But again, there's just so many stakeholders. Why does it gotta be a fight, dude? Uh it's always a fight. Oh, Jesus.
+
+[47:43] I'm solo, by the way. Really? So it's like I look, I I have to say that I think collaboration makes me better personally. It's challenging, yes. Yeah, I don't think that's true for everyone, but it is true for me.
+
+[47:54] It is true for everyone. Yeah. I mean some resistance is gonna get you gonna do things that you wouldn't otherwise do, yeah. People that you know, um everyone, listeners here, too. I'm not talking about just us, right?
+
+[48:07] Look at the people you know that don't have checks on them. They are small children. They become small children. You know what I mean? And uh but the checks can come in different ways, like different forms as far as like how you're buffered.
+
+[48:21] I'm buffered by the fact that we have to balance our budget and we don't have endless amounts of money behind us, and we have to be able to operate something that's operating, so then we have to operate it. And consumers are a big check. Uh yeah, that is the budget, is the consumer. You know, but like, yeah, it's like, oh, I was wrong. People don't like this.
+
+[48:38] Right. Oh. You know what I mean? Like, yes, we have that experience all the time. Yeah.
+
+[48:42] I think something's gonna work, it's gonna be amazing, a flavor that we thought was gonna be great, and it doesn't move, and we move it off the menu. So the most depressing thing that's happened to me with menu. Uh it's so Don Lee, my partner at the at the bar, um, one of my partners uh at the bar, he is like, Look, just name this thing. We have this drink that's got this super salty water that we get from Saratoga. It's called the Saratoga Paloma, right?
+
+[49:10] I didn't want it to be called a Paloma because it didn't, it has some of the same Paloma's got freaking squirt in it, right? It's got grapefruit soda. We don't use grapefruit soda. Does a paloma have to have squirt in it? That's the same thing.
+
+[49:14] Well, I mean, that's what it is. You know what I mean? And then, like, it and you know, so it's got this kind of thing. So, like, this is like this crazy water from Saratoga that nobody else has that's not in any Paloma. We're using clarified grapefruit, right?
+
+[49:36] We're re-adding everything and carbonating it like together, right? And it didn't come from the idea of a paloma, it came more from if frankly, from just wanting to use this water and like pushing it in, pushing it in the direction of grapefruit because salt and grapefruit and you know tequila. With a lot of things, though. Right, no, but I I use a lot of grapefruit juice anyway. One of my big drinks at Booker and Dax was was uh gin and juice.
+
+[50:04] Like I have like a long personal history with clarified grapefruit juice. Like I just I love it. So, like it's one of my kind of go-to things. That still doesn't mean that you had to use it for that drink. No, but I know I created the drink because that's the drink I wanted to make.
+
+[50:14] Okay, and then it was post-labeled as a paloma, right? Even though, like, you can count on zero hands the number of palomas that have been made with super salty water. Okay. Or or with clarified grapefruit juice for that matter. You know what I mean?
+
+[50:28] So, because uh ding ding, grapefruit soda, I like it by the way, fresca, delicious, does not taste like grapefruits. True, yes. In a way that apple jacks does not taste like apples, true. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
+
+[50:41] An old school fake banana doesn't taste like banana. But you can't, but you can't divor you cannot divorce those two things. Like that whole process that you're saying that you're struggling with, and someone else was saying you should think about calling it a paloma because that's gonna be the way that people are gonna look at it. Right. And so he won that battle.
+
+[50:59] We called it the Saratoga Paloma. You lost. And we sold are still selling a boat ton of them. A crap ton of them. And he's like, it's because it's called Paloma.
+
+[51:07] And I was like, Don, there's no A B. There's no freaking A B. We don't. And what I wanted to do, and I'm not, I don't think we're gonna do this. I want to have You want to change the name?
+
+[51:15] No, no, no. I want to have the exact same drink on the menu in two places with two different names. The exact same drink, and then see which one's because we have another one. So Garrett. What?
+
+[51:25] What would you call it? Don't tell anyone now. Like so Garrett has his drink on the on the menu. Garrett, our uh our tiki fiend. Uh he he had a drink that uh is called Don.
+
+[51:39] It was it's it's called Beachcomber Negroni. I saw it. Yeah. So uh and we sell a lot of it. And Don's like, it's cause it's got the word Negroni in it.
+
+[51:48] And then so then, like, we took off one of our Houstinos off the menu. Which one? Uh we took off um Professor Plum, which was a prune Houstino, into Elijah Craig Bourbon. Delicious. And we swapped it out for a um compass box and uh date Houstino, which is good.
+
+[52:06] Uh I think wait, date or fig. I can't remember which one we put on because I like both. Uh anyway, so like um he put that on and we appended the word f old fashioned. It's fig. Fig old fashioned, and we sell a lot of it, and Don's like, it's cause it's got the word old fashioned in it.
+
+[52:21] Don sounds like a marketing genius. As far as I can tell. But I've never met the guy, but yeah, but like I just hate it so much. Why? Because I just hate that it's that easy to push people around.
+
+[52:33] You know what I mean? It's like that they're not like that. We are all part of the herd, Dave. Even you. Yeah, I know.
+
+[52:40] I know. That's what I'm saying. But it's like You are at times being herded. In spite of my rage. And you need the hurting.
+
+[52:46] I am still just a rat in a cage. Exactly. You know what I mean? Yes, I do. We all need to be herded sometimes, though.
+
+[52:55] We do. Have you not ever sat down at looked at the menu and just been like, ugh, yeah, just I just need to get that. I don't know. What am I doing? I can't think about this.
+
+[53:03] Okay, so most people don't think about this as much as you think about it. So like I am perfectly fine with this. Because this is the way I am. I hate choice. First of all, I hate choice.
+
+[53:13] And as Estasi knows, if you go out to eat with me, I I insist on ordering last. Yeah. I don't know why. Because you want to see what everyone else is doing. Yes.
+
+[53:22] Yep. Yes. Anyway, so like the thing is, uh it's not that it changes, but like I'm kind of always on the fence in my mind between a couple of things anyway, so I it has to go around. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[53:32] I'm uh I've got problems. Listen. So, like, but I my favorite thing to do, and I hate it when people can't handle it, because a lot of servers can't handle it. I'm like, listen, I haven't been here before. I might never come in here again.
+
+[53:45] I like almost everything. Just bring me something that's representative of what you do. You know what I mean? And like You do that? Yeah.
+
+[53:52] Wow. And I'm like. How often does that wind up well? Uh so sometimes it ends up really well if they take it right. You know what I mean?
+
+[54:00] If they don't take it right. But are you making the estimation that you're gonna do that once you have gauged your server's ability to understand your particular psychosis? Well, it's like you try to get a read off someone. Like you could tell if you ask them questions and they're clearly pointing you towards just what's easy for them to sell or hide inside and whatever it is. But it's, you know, especially like I'll go to a town and I I don't know anything about the town or like what they do there.
+
+[54:27] And then I'm looking at this menu and I'm like, I'm told I should go here. Like I go to a, let's say I go to a barbecue joint. The first time I was in Kansas City, I went to like, you know, that barbecue joint at the gas station. And I'm like, listen, I know a lot about North Carolina barbecue. I know something about Texas barbecue.
+
+[54:42] I've never been to Kansas City before. What is it I need to have here? You know what I mean? But you're describing a scenario that's not the one that I'm describing, which is when you're just like, I you go to you're going somewhere very specific. You know that you're gonna have an experience and you need them to guide you because that you need to be guided.
+
+[54:56] I I subscribe to the same philosophy. If I go someplace and I'm just like, tell me what it is that you guys do here and let me experience what it is. And if I want to add on to it and augment it based on my own taste, then I'll do that. But there's certainly times in my life where I'm just like exhausted or can't be bothered, and I need to eat, and I'm like at a place and I'm like, all right, I don't, you know, I understand that sometimes people don't really want to have to choose. Choosing is work.
+
+[55:17] So it is, it's yeah, hate choice. Okay, so it's energy. You have to like deal with it. And so, but you're writing menus and you're fighting against the fact that putting on the tag name Negroni or old fashioned or whatever else is actually making it easier for people to make the selection. Yeah, well, Don is often right.
+
+[55:34] Marketing genius. Don, Don, Don Lee. Uh, he's not listening, thank God. So I can say on air that he is often right. But but it it doesn't mean someone's gonna point him to this.
+
+[55:45] It doesn't mean that it has to make me happy. Okay, so you are disturbed by the fact that he's right, or you're disturbed by the fact that he otherwise is just winning this fight. The whole thing disturbs me. Okay, not to get off the side. So, okay, so so wait, so I want to hear more.
+
+[56:01] Check back in in September on what happened with your two cocktails, same cocktail, different names. I want to know what happened. If we ever did so, so Nastasi wanted me to say this uh quickly. We were at the bar. So Nastasi and I, the way this works is that Booker and Dax, and by the way, we talk like right before the rip is off, we'll talk about uh spin spins all updates.
+
+[56:14] Uh because we got the new spins all in. Oh, jeez. Can you give me one of those to borrow and use for a week and I'll bring it up? So listen, so listen, so Nastasi and I don't have an office anymore. It's just the two of us plus Matthew and Hong Kong Chris.
+
+[56:32] That's the whole company. And uh so what the way we operate is we get on the phone and yell at each other constantly. Understood. So like we're meeting at the bar because we're gonna go do this French fry shoot with Harold McGee that we did last week for 0.0 that Nastasia posted our tests for, and apparently it's the the greatest, it's the greatest video that Nastasi and I have ever done. Like people were like, you know, to talk about see how the sausage is made.
+
+[56:54] It's just us yelling at each other the whole time. So we show up at the bar, and don't like we say they're having a photo shoot, a huge photo shoot at the bar. The whole bar is filled with. It's like two o'clock in the afternoon. Two o'clock in the afternoon.
+
+[57:07] Who's having a huge photo shoot? The the bar. They were shooting a bunch of drinks for something that I didn't have to work on. We're talking about your bar. My bar.
+
+[57:14] So you say we were having a big photo shoot? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Existing conditions having to go. So like so Nastasi and I show up and we show up separately, and then within two sentences of talking to each other, we were full out screaming at each other. Everyone was just like, what the hell?
+
+[57:34] You know what I mean? I don't know how that happened. Oh, it's nasty. But Nastasia like gets mad at me, and then she knows how to, she's like, I am mad. I want Dave to be mad.
+
+[57:45] But the problem with me is is that I go from being totally fine to not fine. Quickly. Well, with Nastasia, especially, because it's the same button. It's like it's like if someone new comes up and starts punching me in the shoulder, it'll take me like three months before I get really agitated. You know what I mean?
+
+[57:59] Yes, I do. But after 10 years, she knows she's punching the exact same place on my shoulder. Yes. I'm like, I told you about the shoulder, damn it! You know what I mean?
+
+[58:15] It's like, and so she knows how to And you're the same. You know what I mean? You know this comes through on the show. I don't know. All right, we gotta go, Dave.
+
+[58:24] Whoa! Hold up. So uh I didn't get to any of the questions except for I will say this. Uh Matt Hall called in with a liquid intelligence life hack. Liquid Intelligence is my book.
+
+[58:33] And as you know, Nastasia uses it. Uh, for instance, if she was taking a pint of your ice cream out of your establishment. But they also made me make lasagna, and I'm taking both of a potlack. Right. So then she would use my book as the thing that separates the ice cream from the lasagna, and it's the right size to stop the heat transfer during the transfer in the bag, but it's not too heavy.
+
+[58:51] So she uses it as as an insulator. Yeah, I could make her a styrofoam insulator, which would be a lot lighter, but she likes to use my book. Yep. Uh so here's another uh liquid intelligence life hack from Matt Hall. Uh I'm new to Instagram and may have screwed things up, but I tried to send Dave a picture of my wife using liquid intelligence as a mouse pad.
+
+[59:08] She does this basically every night. I thought you might like to know that the book can be used for more than separating hot and cold foods. Dave, can I have a copy of your book? Brilliant. Yeah, sure.
+
+[59:17] Uh uh then, okay, we had an update which we're not gonna have time apparently to get to from uh Alex on he cooked his Canadian geese that were shot out of the sky in Toronto. So next week we'll read uh about that. We have some soda problems we have to deal with for Daniel next week in Cleveland. Uh we have someone uh I'll just do this real quick. Uh Paris wrote in and is trying to make pretzels, but trying to deep fry the pretzels and is doing the lie dip uh at the here's the thing.
+
+[59:44] You need to do the lie dip. Paris is par baking this before before uh frying it, but doing the lie dip after the par bake. You do the live dip before the par bake because you're starting the Mayard and stuff, and I think if you do the let it sit for a while. So if you do your dip in the hot lie, it should be hot lye or hot, you know, sodium carbonate, uh, pull it out, then do your par bake, let it sit for a while. Yes, basic things ruin ruin oil.
+
+[1:00:12] They saponify the oil. Whether it's a huge factor, I don't know if it's gonna be a huge factor, but I know that if you go hot out of the oven into the lie, wet into the oil, gonna be problems. So uh do that. That's a hazard. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:26] Uh Remy is doing a fundraising dinner with liquid nitrogen. I have tips, but I'll have to get to them next week because there's too much to say. And we, Mr. Morgan Stern, did not get to talk about the history of the Sunday, which Nastasia made me research. No, Rebecca did.
+
+[1:00:40] Rebecca or Rebecca? Yeah. So uh I'm happy to come back. Alright, we'll talk about the we'll talk about the summer with new flavors. What do you think about the banana split?
+
+[1:00:48] What do you mean? What do you like? Do you like it? Yeah. It's like the second most important thing.
+
+[1:00:52] Is this like probably works with you? Second. What's the first? Regular one? Regular like.
+
+[1:00:56] Listen, the banana splits, the banana split. I went on the Wikipedia, and these garbage faces had a banana split. It wasn't in any form of boat. Dude, I was gonna bring the banana boat over here. I have we have uh we have eight of the vintage, like they're from the 40s, and they're they're shaped like a banana and they're big, they look like a banana, they're cast, they're yellow, they're beautiful, and they fit a banana.
+
+[1:01:23] It's gotta be in a boat. Yeah, it's gotta be in a boat. Banana split eating experience is really critical. I love, I don't like a lot of the things that are like I don't really like some of the stuff that's in, but a banana split's great. Let's talk about what's in a banana split real quick.
+
+[1:01:36] Okay, okay. So that's gonna ask you are you how hyper traditional spee as a dairy queen man? So hyper traditional. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our tenure anniversary celebration happening all year long.
+
+[1:02:01] Subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:02:29] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
+
+[1:02:51] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest.
+
+[1:03:16] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsibly. Muckle Shoot.
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+[0:00] This episode is presented by Forever Cheese. This week on Meet and Three, we're exploring the intersection between food, agriculture, and competition. Learn how a chicken raising contest in the 1940s led to the poultry industry we have today. And they were gonna run a contest and try and develop what they would call the chicken tomorrow. We'll also venture into the world of agricultural video games, where a new set of tractors is making a lot of fans happy.
+
+[0:28] The biggest addition to 19 was the John Deere's. That's what everyone was hyped for. And we pay a visit to a group of Indian restaurants that aren't on the friendliest of terms. Usually they wait for my restaurant, but after long wait, they'll go to next door or downstairs. But this is how they do business.
+
+[0:46] They completely copy whatever we do. Embrace your competitive spirit and be the first to listen to new meet and three episodes by subscribing now. That's meet plus sign thr e available wherever you listen to podcasts. Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:21] Matt in the booth. Meeting me. I said the hammer. Dana. And we got Jack Shram, head bartender at existing conditions.
+
+[1:34] Hello, good afternoon. With us has our special guest, Colin That News. What? You why did the energy get sucked out of the room when you talk about Jack? Hey Martinger at existing conditions on West Eight Street in New York City.
+
+[1:53] Hello. Better? Okay. So uh call in all of your questions to 7184972128. That's 718497 uh 2128.
+
+[2:06] So when they announced Nastasia, I know you probably weren't listening, but now that now that you are theoretically listening, she's got one earphone on. Yeah. We're being sponsored today by Forever Cheese. I think that's Forever Cheese. Don't you have the Rod Stewart Forever Young song in your head now?
+
+[2:23] But with the word cheese in it? I'm not gonna sing Forever. Jack will sing Forever Cheese. For cheese. Forever Cheese.
+
+[2:35] Forever Cheese. Right? Four Ever Cheese. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[2:44] It's like, I think they should they they should pay Rod Stewart. He seems like a friendly sort, friendly sort of fellow. And like allow themselves to do a Forever Cheese parody of Forever Young. What do you think? That's a good idea.
+
+[2:57] Winning? Winning? Winning. I also, Matt, had some comments to make on the meet and three uh topics for this week, but I forget what they are. So I can't.
+
+[3:07] I am eagerly awaiting them. What? There's a caller. There's a caller. There is a caller.
+
+[3:13] Alright, caller, you're on the air. What's up? Uh uh. A couple questions about smoking. Okay.
+
+[3:20] And then uh also uh the eggs with the big yolks. Eggs with big yolks. Go. Go. So eggs with big yolks.
+
+[3:27] I've got chicken. I can make eggs with really big yolks, and do you think there's a market for it? Let me ask you this. Are you willing to say what it is that you do, or is this like a like some sort of technique that you have that you want to have be a competitive advantage? I know I like a big yoke because there's something I don't like as much.
+
+[3:43] The whites. Unless I am making an aged food cake, which P.S. Ange food cakes are delicious. Not because they're fat-free, because that would make them seem like they're garbage. But in fact, they taste good.
+
+[3:56] They taste good. But uh but I would always prefer in a post egg scenario, I would prefer if you're eating an egg, you want more yolk. You want more yolk. You definitely want more yolk. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:08] So, but anyways, are you are you willing to say how you accomplish this, or is this just a good thing? Yeah, nothing proprietary. I'd be happy if it if it caught on and like these higher quality eggs at the market. In my mind would be a positive thing. So, how do you do it?
+
+[4:21] Um, so if you imagine like foie gras. Yes. Except the goose would go willingly and eat as much food as it can. And that that's kind of what chickens do. Are you a Spanish liar?
+
+[4:34] Am I what? Are you a Spanish liar? No. Okay. Because you imagine it was something willful, right?
+
+[4:42] Well, that but that's what the Spanish say. The span there's this guy in Spain who says that he's it wants. He wants, but you have to not. No, I'm not even using a Spanish thing. He's like, you have to tell it.
+
+[4:51] The theory is he goes, if you look at the goose, it won't eat everything to get a foie gras. So if you look at it, it's not gonna make a foie gras, but if you don't look at it, I didn't force feed it. That's that Spanish guy that Dan Barber profiled, where he says that he has these geese that just they love it. They love it. You know what I mean?
+
+[5:10] And yet, and yet I know a lot, I don't know if you know this. I know people in the food industry. I don't know anyone, not one human who has tasted this foie gras. It is miraculous foie gras that requires no force feeding. Alright, go ahead.
+
+[5:24] But you're saying you got chickens, you got chicken feed that is just so freaking good that these chickens just jam it all in. Is that what you're telling me? So i i it's more of a and and I'm hoping this works out because I just invested in 150 birds, uh, to try and get this up and going, get the product to market. But so if you imagine chickens have such like a an impulse to eat and the way that their system works with their their crop um is they're constantly digesting all day. So I can go out and I make like a lard or a tallow depending on what I have.
+
+[5:55] Uh render it all down, mix in a little bit of feed into that, and then put it in the freezer and chop it up. And then so I can go out three, four, five times a day, and I can feed these chickens and throw it down, and no matter how much they've eaten, because I'm showing up and is new, they continue to eat. Now I I know ch I know chickens are not vegetarians. Chickens are not vegetarians. Everyone should get this out of their head.
+
+[6:21] Chickens eat worms and bugs, all sorts of stuff. But do people give you crap about feeding uh beef fat to chickens or do they not? I just don't know what the current I don't I haven't really shared it that much that I'm doing it, that it that anyone would give me crap and if they did, I mean that's too bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, go ahead.
+
+[6:40] I mean they they eat meat. I got a like two questions. I I fell on this by getting bigger yolks in the winter when I was feeding more tallow on on, you know, up in Vermont here when it's negative twenty five, um giving more fight to process and then the the next day the yolks would be just humongous. I like this. Um so it it's just it's a high labor process, um, meaning you it can't be like an automatic feed system.
+
+[7:04] So you you have to go out and like appear and spread the chickens. The chickens are out free ranging, and they I mean they just they just they see me coming and they just scram to chop chock chalk all that fat and and uh and then you also get really nice fricacy chickens when they start stop laying. So because they're on such a high fat content, when they're they're done laying uh older hens, they're like dynamite stew hens. Here's something Nastasi doesn't, I'm sure does not like the word of spent layer hens. He should send this one.
+
+[7:36] Uh but so what you're saying is you want it alive or dead. The taste of the taste of a spent hen, right? Obviously good from an old school chicken soup kind of a situation, but uh some people I know some people are put off by the texture of old birds. I I don't mind the chewiness because I know that they're gonna taste delicious. Does it does the feed ratio with the high fat actually like affect the texture too, or just increases their flavor profile?
+
+[8:04] Uh increases its flavor profile. It's almost like it it just makes a really um you you end up getting like really big fat pads inside the bird um that I I just leave them and cook and just don't eat them. Um but it it flavor profile I think is a lot better. Okay, so now I've also never researched uh I've never researched the fat content of poultry, the fatty acid profile of poultry based on the uh fatty acid components of the food that they eat. I have researched it in pork and in cows.
+
+[8:37] So I'm curious you're feeding uh you know hydrogenated fats to the the No, not not hydrogenated. Well, not hydrogenated, that's not what I meant to say. Solid. Solid fats. That's what I meant.
+
+[8:49] Saturated is the word I meant to use. Sorry. Correction. So you're feeding them saturated fats. Does that affect the fatty acid profile of the yolk?
+
+[8:58] Is the yolk have a different kind of action to it aside from size? Uh I would say it's deeper in color and it's definitely fattier. But in other words, have you tried feeding them some sort of more liquidy fat if that's possible to see whether you get a different texture of the egg yolk? No, because up up where I am, uh, you know, everyone in their neighbor does raises their own meat, you get farm fresh meat everywhere at grocery store prices, and uh the the tallow and the lard, your average homeowner doesn't know what to use. So I go up to people I know and they'll have like a whole chest freezer.
+
+[9:34] Your average homeowner is a jerk. Why don't they use it? True. Why don't they use it? Anyway, well I'm glad you're using it.
+
+[9:39] Yeah. And so I get it for a song. Okay. Um So if it takes a pound of feed to make X number of eggs normally, forget the labor for a minute. It takes a pound of feed to make X number of eggs, how much more pound typically.
+
+[9:53] What? Third of a pound of feed. Okay. So how much in this new technology does it take to get a an egg? You know, I haven't done the math because I just kinda go out and fro and they eat what they eat.
+
+[10:06] Right. I'm just trying to figure out how much more these are gonna have to cost. Oh, good question. Um so when I'm doing the fat, the feed their their feed production goes down, but their foraging production their foraging goes up. So when I'm doing when I'm into heavy into the fat, um they eat next to no grain.
+
+[10:26] And but they eat a ton more grass to compensate, I think, for the the high fat content. Okay. So you're saying naturally. So you're saying that the feed is not necessarily the the issue in price? Right.
+
+[10:38] It's it's the labor. Okay. Because like in order to do this, I've got to be on location. It's the labor that goes into it. You you've got to be attentive to them to get the really really really big yolks.
+
+[10:50] Okay, so give me a baseline for like farmer style eggs where you are and then what you want these to sell for these would probably end up wholesaling for probably five five fifty six bucks a dozen once I factor in the labor rate. You know, 150 birds are gonna give me roughly um you know ten dozen eggs a day. Uh and so you're you're being attentive to these birds for 10 dozen eggs a day. Wait so you're telling me that they I for under fifty cents an egg because you're not going to use this for baking or cooking. You're only going to use this for showing off the egg, right?
+
+[11:28] So it's not so bad. Right. So the the the the target market is actually like uh you know mom and pop country store that does breakfast sandwiches in the morning and they just want to up their game and and give a a really solid product. So like I don't know what uh uh I don't know what a dozen so uh obviously there's there's garbage eggs which are you know I don't know what they're what they go for like a dollar a dozen less yeah up here most people there's uh company called maple meadows they're kind of a I'd say a medium sized egg producer that's local here people pay about two fifty a dozen for them um but they're they're commercial the commercial ones you know they're your your uh oh commercial pack I can't think of the word right now but anyways what they buy in bulk are usually the odd sized eggs and then they have the uh regular eggs going into or the the two ounce eggs you know the perfect two ounce eggs going into the retail packs and you'll get a mixture of big and small eggs in the wholesale. So with this I'm hoping to push the uh all uniform jumbos out as the wholesale product.
+
+[12:36] Um for it's probably gonna end up being twice the cost. Yeah. Which when we're talking about a dozen dozen eggs. I would pay for that for like a Benedictose. I would like to see one of these eggs.
+
+[12:46] I'm interested in the technology. An odd size egg was my nickname in high school. No, no. All right, all right. So the the the only hiccup that I've had in this is is when the birds get really scared there's an increased rate of heart attack.
+
+[13:02] Well because they're fat. Yeah all right. Right. All right. But like we got hawks and you know there's the the the hawk will dive bomb and the heads have good protection.
+
+[13:12] They'll scare the crap out of them and I've had a couple drop dead from it. Um but besides that healthy bird and there's no force feeding. Yeah you you l you lost Nastasia until scared to death by a hawk and then she was like okay okay. Well you know it happens by a regular regular chickens too they just kind of die. Yeah.
+
+[13:32] Well you know it's a known fact that with uh um like things like pigs when they have like doubled muscles like double like like very lean and well actually it's the reverse they're lean but they're doubled muscles they get frightened and they keel over and die. They're like Yeah anytime you force something beyond its normal kind of parameters it's like living on the edge and then it like you know can keel over dead. Alright Nastasia's gonna rip my head out of stress bam so like we have to do if you have a smoking question it has to be within 10 seconds. I have to be able to answer within 10 seconds. Awesome.
+
+[14:00] Uh hot coast versus uh hot smoke versus cold smoke. Uh when you're cooking sous V before or after sous V, um what's the best technique? Uh I mean they hot smoke and cold smoke taste obviously very different. When you're cold smoking, you have to worry about um you have to worry about uh food safety. With hot smoking, you don't need to worry about food safety because you're increasing the safety as you go.
+
+[14:23] So if you're throwing a light smoke on it, you're gonna cook the hell out of it anyway, it's relatively big piece. I would just hot smoke it for for less time, pull it out before it gets overcooked and then cook it through on the on the sous vide. If you're doing it for a crust development, obviously anything you put in a bag is gonna get wet and soppy, it's gonna need to be crusted up afterwards. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[14:42] So can I safely do uh sous V and then do a cold smoke after? No. Not I mean, in other words, like if you if you do a co if you do a cold smoke, you're putting it in a situation because you haven't wiped out any of the anaerobic stuff that is going to be on it, right? You've out you've wiped out the vegetative cells, but you haven't wiped out anything. So if you put it in any sort of situation where there's a possibility of uh spores uh turning back into vegetative cells and producing toxin, then sous vide is not gonna help it unless there's a surface treatment that uh precludes uh botulism growing or or other or other things.
+
+[15:20] So no. Uh you aren't, I mean, obviously you're killing vegetative cells, so you're enhancing safety, but you're not making cold smoking on its own safe. Does that make sense? Yeah. So uh my the other part of that is is when we harvest our meat birds.
+
+[15:34] I've got I just got a cabinet pellet smoker, and it fits 12 birds at a time, 12 big birds at a time. Things monstrous. And can I do a cold smoke on them and then and then not worry about the growth and do a deep freeze to like negative fourteen to kill the bacteria? No. And then pull them out smoked, not raw.
+
+[15:55] No. Deep deep freeze will not kill bacteria. Deep freeze will just I mean it might kill some, but it freezing is only considered a kill step for uh worms and parasites, not for bacteria. So it stops them from multiplying, but doesn't stop them from existing or be or being there. So the the only way to if you're gonna cold smoke it, if you can actually keep it cold, i.e.
+
+[16:18] at 40 degrees, right, then it's just like storing it or you know, 40 degrees or below in Fahrenheit land. Then, you know, okay, now you can smoke it as though it was in a vacuum bag prior to cook. So you have it for as long as you would have in a vacuum bag prior to cooking to smoke it, then you can low temp it. But if you're if you're cold smoking it for hours and hours and hours at a temperature in the quote unquote, which I don't believe, but the quote unquote danger zone, then um you're you're in a in it for a world of hurt unless you actively stop the bacteria from growing. But smoking after, so jumping back to the cooking, smoking after sous V won't swamp out the sous V texture.
+
+[17:00] Uh smoking no, I mean it depends. Uh if you're cold smoking it and you're keeping it cold. Hot smoking. Oh, yeah, hot, yeah, yeah, yeah. It depends.
+
+[17:08] It depends on how big it is and how long you're gonna smoke it, right? So, I mean, again, everything depends, but like a big hawking piece of meat, if you're gonna smoke it for like 20 minutes at a hot temperature, then you're not gonna overdo it. You know what I mean? Like probably. If it's a small piece of meat, you could overcook it easily in 20 minutes.
+
+[17:24] I mean, if you ha if you can't if you look, if you're gonna do it industrially to chickens, or not semi-industrially, then I would just invest in keeping them um, you know, actual refrigerator temperature. I'd make sure they're salted properly. I might even nitrate them a little bit so that no one gets pissed off at you, and then do it for a couple of hours at refrigerator temperature and then so veed it, you should be fine. So no nitrates. My wife's so allergic to nitrates and lightshades.
+
+[17:49] So I don't do uh my life sucks when I have to cook for her. Yeah, yeah. Sorry about the whole nitrate thing. Nitrates are delicious. Yes.
+
+[17:56] Yeah, absolutely. Uh last time I called in, I was talking about reverse osmosis, milk, maple sugar. Um, so I've got like three or four farmers that are interested in it, and a couple of people with sugar houses. Uh, we're waiting until after season. I think we're gonna run some and see what happens.
+
+[18:10] All right, call us let us know. This episode is presented by Forever Cheese, a passion for great taste. Forever Cheese sources the highest quality and most unique cheeses and other products from Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Croatia, and imports them to the United States. Many under the Mitika brand. If it's Mitika, it's got to be incredible.
+
+[18:38] Learn more at Forevercheese.com. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Michael Harlan Turkell, and I'm the host of the food scene here on HRN. This show explores the intersection of food, art, and design by talking to people who inspired by these ideas.
+
+[18:56] The show features food photographers, food stylists, interior designers, and so much more. All the players that make the world so visually delicious. You can find the food scene wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritageradio network.org. Hey, Dave, I actually emailed Saz a few days ago that was question too, but then I got a chance to call in. Um so my sister is getting married in August, and there's gonna be like 50 people there.
+
+[19:23] And she wants me to cater her wedding, which sounds like fun. Um it's gonna be outdoors. We'll have an oven, a stove, a barbecue, um emergent circulators, no deep fryer, um, and we'll have plenty of other equipment as we need. Um any general suggestions would be welcome, but also um we're gonna be doing a like a first course before the wedding, which we hope to be kind of prepping our mains during that time, um, during when people are are cycling in so that we can actually participate and be at the wedding. And so something that is um full prep ahead of time, doesn't need to be monitored in terms of temp, is not going to weep out uh and just kind of easy to have out so that we can do other things while people are munching on it.
+
+[20:18] Do you have any thoughts? Uh well you live in the Pacific Northwest, so if you're not worried about poisoning people, and I mean you do have to get temperature because it's crushed ice, but everybody loves a raw bar, and you got all that kind of crazy good raw bar stuff up there. I would love a raw bar. My sister doesn't like oysters. Um see, and you're in your question, you said there were no dietary restrictions.
+
+[20:37] There are no dietary restrictions. I should have said my sister does not like oysters, however. Have you considered getting a new sister? I she's pretty good otherwise. Okay.
+
+[20:47] All right. I know I would a rah bar would be so good. Yeah, you could do like you could or you could like, you know, you live in like gooey duckville. Can't you get some gooey ducks? You know, rip rip the everyone who's not seen videos of removing the skins off the gooey ducks is like one of the more suggestive cooking procedures.
+
+[21:06] I like it. I like that stuff. Oh, yeah. Let me see. So like yeah, right now, you because I read the question, I was like, ah, you should do a raw water.
+
+[21:12] They live in you want to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like I should have mentioned that. Yeah, but I should have mentioned that. So there's a lot of things that are good cold.
+
+[21:20] Right? Like it depends. Also, here's what you didn't say in your question, right? How fancy are the people, right? Because it's like there's a question of like, you know, the the weddings that Nastasia goes to, there's yellowtail on the table.
+
+[21:32] You know what I mean? I'm just making fun of her. She's making fun of her. I'm making fun of her friends, not making fun of Nastasi. Nastasia makes it.
+
+[21:40] No, no, no. No, she's hating the yellow tail. So the side joke is that whenever people come over to Nastasia's house, she's like, you brought yellow tail, I cook you a meal. Anyway, and so like the point being, I don't know how fancy your friends are, because you know, there's lots of things that are incredibly simple that can sit out forever, but they ain't exactly fancy. You know what I mean?
+
+[22:00] So it's like what level of the case. So is it that kind of the it does I think the first cruise doesn't have to be super fancy? So the rest of it's gonna be we're gonna, I mean, it's it's gonna be summertime, so there's gonna be great produce. And so for kind of like the first of the mains, this is gonna be like our charcuterie cheese, fruit, tomato. Oh, wait, wait, your mains is gonna be the charcuterie?
+
+[22:17] Because I was about to go charcuterie. I jerk, jerk. Uh the self-jerk, strong. Yeah, well, that's gonna be the first main, and then the main main, which is all gonna be at the same time, it's gonna be like some salmon and like uh prime red. Uh because you know what else is really good as uh as uh uh an appetizer is uh cold a cold whole filet of salmon with the dips.
+
+[22:41] Like it fantastic first. Yeah, yeah. We might we might just go like fancy popcorn, like I don't know. Uh hey, listen. Anyone on the chat room has an idea or tweet it because I get like uh so like my old school's stuff that used to like sit out forever and was fine is you get a table with a obviously any any dips, any dips.
+
+[22:59] Yeah, just do like a metse platter. Any dips like baba hummus, yeah, yeah, but like vegetables. Uh and I'm actually gonna say something Nastasi enjoys here, like uh artichokes. You like uh prepped artichokes, artichokes are delicious, delicious, and they can sit out forever. Like uh if you're doing salmon for your mane, because blah blah blah, Pacific Northwest, like chicken, a cold chicken roulade, like that you then slice up and you can like lay like fan out and you can have with like little toasts and things like this is nice.
+
+[23:31] Oh my god, Rhea any sort of rieette. You know what, you know what I like? I like I like a three a three meat choose your riette. Ooh. Where you got the duck riette, you got the pork riette, and then rabbit, you could do rabbit, which I enjoy rabbit.
+
+[23:43] Um so I you know, but the problem is is like you don't want this to parasit, if you're gonna do a charcuterie thing, you don't want this to parasitize your uh parasitize your your your charcuterie. Here's another thing I'm gonna mention to you. Uh your sister is gonna be freaking busy getting married, so she ain't gonna eat the first appetizer anyhow. You're gonna be lucky if she gets one fork full of food in her face the whole freaking day. You're gonna have to actually force her to eat if she's getting married.
+
+[24:09] So it wouldn't eat to have some oysters and some raw bar out there for the people who are normal. You know what I mean? For the normal people. Well that's that's uh that's a good point. As long as there's other stuff that she can eat, you know what I mean?
+
+[24:20] Yeah, and then you can have a nice mignonette, you can have a nice cocktail sauce. You know what I'm saying? Are you doing drinks here? Like a shrimp cocktail. Everyone loves shrimp cocktail.
+
+[24:29] Well, most people do. I was who is it that doesn't like shrimp? Is it Nastasia that doesn't like shrimp? No, it no, it's not you, or no. Somebody I know doesn't like shrimp.
+
+[24:38] I don't like that person. Yeah. Well, shrimp is good. Shrimp, though, shrimp is like, whenever you eat a shrimp, you're like, imagine if this was crab. That's true for most crustaceans, though.
+
+[24:49] Yeah, we have we have I mean we have a ton of dungeoness out here. Yes, I'm familiar with the crabs on your part of the world, but the problem with them is they're a huge pain in the behind to pick. God, are they good? So unless you're gonna pay someone else to pick them for you, like, or you want to spend the entire morning picking the meat out of Dungeness crabs, it's kind of a freaking nightmare. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:08] Yeah. Oh, I've done it many times. Yeah, many, many times. I once ruined a Valentine's Day dinner by saying it was going to be done in a reasonable amount of time and then deciding to make Dungeon Esque crabs. Like, and my my wife doesn't enjoy like cracking apart decopod crustaceans and ripping the meat out of them.
+
+[25:27] So I had to crack I had to crack and pick it all, and she's like, Are we gonna uh we're gonna eat now? This is not a sexy Valentine's Day look, waiting for your husband who has crab pieces sprayed all over his face to pick out. That's like aroma too. Oh, it's a sweet, sweet aroma. And the aroma is uh repellent if you hadn't had to do it.
+
+[25:46] So if you're if you get to eat the crab, that's good, but then you have to go to sleep with the person who's been coated in crabs. Whose like hands have like literally been tattooed with crab stink based on the like shells going through his fingers as he was picking the crab out? Not a good look. Right now around here is $5.99 a pound. And in my opinion, it's superior to lobster.
+
+[26:10] Oh yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's 100%. Yeah. Look, lobsters, the here's the good thing about lobster people. Like, I I happen to like lobster.
+
+[26:18] Uh, but it in the pantheon of things, crab is way up high. Much more delicious. Way up high. Then underneath crabs are most shrimp forms, like the larger prawny ones are a little. Then comes lobster.
+
+[26:31] Yeah. And like carabanero's up there. But like the the nice thing about lobster is it's just big and it's easy to get. It's easy to get to. Like a lobster is the fastest, like, like get full, as long as see I actually eat all the little parts of the lobster.
+
+[26:49] Oh, yeah, squeeze all the meat out of those legs. So it takes me a while to do it, but the average jerk jerk jerk who just eats the tail and throws the rest away. Like, I can have the tail out of a lobster before I can tell you I'm getting the tail out of the lobster. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:02] Like crawfish, by the way, below lobster. Yeah. But good. They're good. Yeah.
+
+[27:08] They're good. Crawfish, that's why the thing people mistake about crawfish is it's it's all about the soak after the cook. It's cook and soak because the meat itself is flavorless because they live in fresh water. Most freshwater things, this is actually the failure of many shrimp, is that they're grown in too fresh of a water, right? Because they're farmed.
+
+[27:26] And so, like, things that live in fresh water, I mean, the exception in certain fish. I mean, like, I like a trout. Is trout really flavorful or is trout good smoked? After you smoke it. Yeah.
+
+[27:34] So, like, so the point being that you know, uh, lobster is good, but it ain't no crab. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[27:43] All right. Well, if you have any other thoughts, throw them out, but thank you for the help. All right. Now let's know how it works out. Uh, Alex wrote in with a uh follow up, asked us about cooking the Canadian geese.
+
+[27:54] As everybody knows, geese are the devil, and they should all be shot, either turned into coats or comforters, or food. And but we've never I've never eaten a Canadian goose. Uh so this was the follow-up. Uh okay, uh, Alex says we were correct to call the meat squidgy rather than tender. After 45 minutes at 57 degrees Celsius, which is by the way, about 135 degrees Fahrenheit, which is a good number for duck breasts.
+
+[28:18] It was extremely tough and chewy. After about three hours, it had tenderized somewhat. And after four hours, it was reasonably tender. Although I'll have to say, long cooking something like this to make it reasonably tender, usually just makes it so your teeth can break it up, but it makes it fibrous, fibrous. What do you think about that word, Nastasi?
+
+[28:37] You don't mind fibers? It doesn't care about anything. She's like, I'm I'm done thinking about this. I know this is my job to think about this, but I don't really care. I just don't care.
+
+[28:44] You disgust me so much, Dave, that I can't even think about what you're saying for 10 seconds. Uh but it was becoming increasingly sour with a pronounced dog food aroma. The dog food aroma is probably some sort of protein breakdown product or some sort of you maybe it's what I call livery. It's that livery note that things get, which is uh, let's just say uh unpleasant in a in a in a goose breast. These attempts all ended up in the compost.
+
+[29:06] Since the higher temperature seemed to help, I also tried 60C after which is 140 degrees Fahrenheit for you people who are keeping track of this. After four hours, the results were comparable to 57C, tender enough for dinner. I should note that these breasts came with no skin and fat. The meat was extremely lean, presumably because they lead an active life in the wild. Are these results typical of wild meats?
+
+[29:26] I mean, usually they're leaner. Uh except for if you get like the official, the official bird, the official wild birds, you eat them when they're in there gorging. Like, so like I've never had an ordalon, but like super fat because it's like eating a lot, or bobble links, which is the rice bird. They eat a super lot and they get fatty, fat, fat, fatty, fat, fat. Hey Nastasia, remember that time I ate a woodcock in front of you?
+
+[29:47] And I sprayed the guts all over your face. Oh, yeah. The look on Nastasia's face is maybe the best look I've ever had uh while sitting across from someone at dinner. The look was complete discussion, uh disg uh disgust and revulsion. It was like it was like Was that after the pear thing?
+
+[30:04] Was it? Yes, we went to Hicks. Yes, it was. Uh so anyway, um Daniel from Cleveland from Cleveland, Ohio, writes in about soda. I have a question about making sodas at home.
+
+[30:17] I have a carbonation rig and a box of bag and box diet coke syrup. Strong diet coke move, by the way, people. I like some diet coke. Uh you know who else likes Diet Coke? My partner Don.
+
+[30:27] Yeah. Yeah. Don drinks it. Nastasia, you you a diet soda hater? I don't like diet.
+
+[30:32] Don't like diet. Do you like soda though? Mm-hmm. But you don't like diet. No.
+
+[30:35] I'm not a diet person. Matt? Oh, he's busy talking to somebody. I like diet soda. I find that uh uh if you are buying, I think I've said this on the air before, if you are a not diet soda uh drinker, right, and you are buying diet soda for a gathering or party, know this.
+
+[30:56] Diet soda drinkers drink about five times as much soda as you do, as a sugarful soda drinker. So uh if you think that one-fifth of the people are going to drink diet versus regular, then you should get the same amount of diet as regular because they will drink five times as much. Okay? Just letting you know this. Uh because people who drink diet soda consume it as hydration, not as a sweet snack.
+
+[31:21] We drink it as hydration. Just a little word to the wise. Um so I've been carbonating water to about 50 psi, but when mixed with the syrup at a one to five dilution, which is uh so most like um simple syrup, 50 bricks simple syrup that we like we would use at the bar, like that usually to get a soda-e kind of thing, runs usually in about one to four, right? Uh, but that adds too much syrup, makes it not as carbonated. So most syrups have a higher bricks, and they're running, which is another reason why they like to use corn syrup because it's thinner at those bricks.
+
+[31:57] Uh they're running higher, so you can do a one to five, just FYI. Uh the end result is still pretty flat tasting since so much of the fizzy water has been replaced by flat syrup. Not just flat, not just flat, Daniel. Warm, warm. Are you are you chilling your freaking syrup?
+
+[32:15] Because there's two problems you have. One, it is flat. Two, it is probably warm. And the warmness is killing you almost as much as the flatness is. Would you agree, Jack?
+
+[32:25] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um I was thinking about mixing the syrup with still water and carbonating the whole shebang, but I'm worried I'll run into problems there too. You will not. I I yeah, I can't feasibly think of a problem you would run into there.
+
+[32:37] You will not run into a problem. Mix it, chill it, carbonate it. Yes. Now, if you're doing it in a keg, the problem you're gonna have is that 999% of the people don't know how to carbonate in a keg properly. They do a wretched job and they suck.
+
+[32:49] They should be punished for what they have done. It's about getting the air out, and then you can't possibly agitate enough unless you put a very small amount of water in the keg and shake it real hard. Even I read one of the instructions because we ordered one at the bar for one of these recirculating carbonators. Yeah. And the instructions in it are wrong because they don't have you purging out the air that's in there, and the air in a system, unless it's purged properly, is never going to go away because it doesn't dissolve.
+
+[33:19] So it's where is it gonna go? Jack, where's it gonna go? There, it's just gonna stay. It's gonna freaking stay there. Yeah, and then that makes you a jamoke.
+
+[33:27] Or as our last caller said, jerk jerk. Okay. Uh Paris wrote in uh about this last week. We mentioned it, even though Nastasi said I didn't mention any of the calls. She's a liar, as usual.
+
+[33:38] My name is Paris. I have a couple of questions about the use of food grade lye. I'm currently testing out a deep fried pretzel. Remember we talked about this? Oh, now you remember.
+
+[33:45] Uh so Paris was uh doing a bake, then a lie, then a uh then then the fry. That's gonna saponify your oil somewhat. Reverse it, see what happens. Also, have you seen, I know everyone's been talking about it, but this freaking bagel thing on the on the internets where these idiots have been slicing the bagel in the wrong way and everyone's mad about it. Oh, yeah.
+
+[34:05] Do you know why that happened? No. It's because it was in first of all, you know why it's St. Louis style? Why they said it was St.
+
+[34:11] Louis style. For those of you that don't know, just look up St. Louis bagel slicing. It's because that's what Paneras is called in St. Louis, because that's where they're from.
+
+[34:17] And they're doing it to Panera's bagels. And so the the thing is, they're like, it's a good way to sample a bagel. No, it's not a good way to sample a bagel because it's like it's like the equivalent of not knowing what direction to cut a ham. The difference between the it's a different texture. It's like you can't get the chewiness proper of a bagel by slicing it vertically.
+
+[34:36] You can't be done. And the issue is Panera, you're just not making your crust chewy enough to have it be an accurate bagel, and this is why you think it's acceptable to cut it the wrong way. In my opinion. Remy writes in. Hold on, wait, we got a question from the chat that's specifically for you and Jack.
+
+[34:53] So while Jack's here, I feel like we should maybe do that one. Okay. Yeah. Are you fans of incorporating smoke into cocktails? I ask this because there's an ancient Arabian technique of bringing mastic to its smoking point, capturing it in a vessel, pouring water into the vessel, and then sealing it.
+
+[35:10] When refrigerated, the result is a clean pine slash cedar tasting water 15 to 30 minutes later. You are a clean pine cedar flavored water. That's rude, Dave. I like I like mastic. There's also, are you familiar with the uh Thai funeral candles?
+
+[35:27] No. No. Yeah. So you take it, you you like these, you like these can these scented candles, and then you put them in a thing with like uh custard, you put a cloche over it, and the the thing gets scented with the with the smoke from the stinking candle from Thailand. I'm paraphrasing.
+
+[35:43] A Thai person can tell me what an a-hole I am. But uh, but that's roughly what happens. So look, anything as traditional, I mean, I think it's cool trying it. The question is, does it does it taste good? I mean, I think find that most things most times I don't want smoke on my thing.
+
+[36:01] If it's clean tasting, great. Most smoked cocktail things that I've had are more on the acrid side. Almost exclusively acrid. I've never had a smoked cocktail that I enjoyed. More more than just the cocktail without the smoke.
+
+[36:15] It's just gonna uh affect the balance in a negative direction. Jack, you like frankincense in a cocktail? Nastasia hates it. I am on the fence. I can't say that about it.
+
+[36:24] My wife hates it. Nastasia doesn't do you like the smell of frankincense? Do you like the smell of church? No. Is that why you don't like it?
+
+[36:32] I think I could make a nostalgia cocktail that I would enjoy based on the aroma of church. But only people who have specifically frankincense aroma church as like a uh uh what's it called? Reference. You know what I'm saying? I feel like it's just gonna end up being musty.
+
+[36:46] No, it's like weird. It's like floral and weird in a weird way. It's weird. It tastes smells like frankincense. Yeah.
+
+[36:51] Anyway, so you're a Guinness. What about mastic? I like the smell of mastic. I actually too. I like Mastika in a thing, but I've never heard of burning it.
+
+[36:58] Anyway. I'm I'm I I'll try anything because I'm just saying that I don't often have things that are s quick smoked that don't taste uh acrid. Now, we all not actually, not all of us. Actually, I just lied. Not everyone likes peat.
+
+[37:13] But like we like smoky flavors when it comes from things like peat, but they tend to be moderated because there's a lot of steps that it goes through after the smoke has been applied to a secondary item, peat. Then you get that burning, then that gets into the malt, then the malt gets fermented, then the sucker gets distilled, blah, blah, blah. A lot of steps to mellow it out. If I'm gonna add smoke to a drink, I'm gonna use a Pedid Scotch or a mezcal. That like a smokier mezcal, not one of the more vegetable ones.
+
+[37:40] And I'm gonna add, you know, I can add a very controlled amount. Is that your uh high school angst movie? The veg ones? The vegetable ones? Oh, yeah, the vegetable ones.
+
+[37:49] Yeah. Uh Remy writes in some friends and I are hosting a fundraising dinner, and one of our cooks would really like to work with liquid nitrogen at the dinner, both for desserts and cocktails. We're home enthusiasts with little to no professional experience, but who have uh played around with modernist techniques for years. As a long time, cooking issues listener, I'm familiar with some of the health and safety issues regard uh regarding liquid nitrogen, but I'm looking for a detailed guide to safely using it in a home setting. We found a place that we can rent a doer, and I'm familiar with basics like never sealing a container with liquid nitrogen, never having even the possibility of serving uh cryogens to a guest and not keeping it in enclosed space.
+
+[38:22] What else do I need to be on the lookout for? Thanks, Remy. Well, go uh it I'm assuming that it's not a German porn site anymore. Go on CookingIssues.com uh and look for the liquid nitrogen primer. I go through a lot of the safety things there, and most of that stuff is still, you know, still good.
+
+[38:38] When you're the the main thing I'm worried about you is when you're transporting it, is like making sure that when you're transporting it to that your car isn't sealed up or that you know the best is to have it in the back of a pickup truck. Uh that's the the ideal. Uh and Jack, you want to tell him the the liquid nitrogen uh safety song? Uh all right. Whether you want it or not, you want to get it doesn't it doesn't make sense without the dance, so we can save that for another time.
+
+[39:02] But there are 10 things to consider when uh handling liquid nitrogen. Uh protecting your hands, not wearing uh baggy or loose fitting clothing, uh keeping a safe distance while someone else is pouring, using a firm grip while you are pouring the the nitrogen. Uh don't wear jewelry because it can freeze and burn you terribly. Uh protect your eyes while you're pouring, at least like don't allow it to splatter into your eyes. Like we never wear eye protection at the bar, but just be be careful, be a person.
+
+[39:31] Don't put yourself in a situation where splashes could happen. Yeah, have a clear path to the exit. Be in a well ventilated area. Uh don't use it alone. Make sure someone knows that you're using liquid nitrogen and don't leave it unattended.
+
+[39:45] Remember that time I accidentally spilled liquid nitrogen all over Nastasia at that event? Well, it wasn't really a spill, you threw it directly into her face. I didn't throw it in your eye. It wasn't the side of your face. Okay, so uh Scott writes in about jungle birds.
+
+[39:58] I need Jack for this one. There's two questions I need Jack for, so we gotta do it. My name is Scott, and I'm a bartender out here in LA. I'm struggling with the jungle bird. Uh give me this, give me a jungle bird spec right now, Jack.
+
+[40:07] Well, I can tell him right now that the thing he's struggling with is that Cruz Anne's black strap is no longer good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that's what this is about. But give the spec on. Yeah, so it's like two ounces of rum blend, which is, you know, generally at least an ounce of blackstrap, and then I like it with at least, you know, three-quarters of an ounce of Jamaican rum, maybe something else going on there too, usually all aged.
+
+[40:26] And then so appletons. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I'm I'm more of a Smith and Cross in a jungle bird. Okay, so you want some mega hogal.
+
+[40:33] You want some hogo funk. Okay. Hogo funk, blackstrap. Uh, you know, human recipe is like an ounce of pineapple juice, three-quarter ounce of lime, half kampari, half simple. Okay, there you go.
+
+[40:44] Enough. That's the standard. Yeah. Okay. I'm struggling with the jungle bird.
+
+[40:49] A lot of really good jungle birds out there that I've had are based around blackstrap, rum with heavy molasses base to balance out the bitterness, but I don't want to have to rely on that because you can't. Yeah, but you could buy blackstrap molasses. Every experiment I've done to try to balance out the drink without blackstrap breaks apart because the moment you add citrus to bitter aperitivo like compari, the bitterness shoots up exponentially. Uh on the other end of the spectrum, without the citrus, the sweetness is super high, like a Negroni. I work at a bar with more than 90 a morrow and have tried 10 plus aperativos to see if it makes a difference, but all of them are the same.
+
+[41:21] Do you know why citrus and compari have this reaction? Campari gets more bitter over time when stored with acids like citrus. Uh I remember a hundred episodes, you mentioned this, blah, blah, blah. Is there any research out there to figure out why this happens, or if there's some sort of acid you can add that doesn't have this reaction? Uh no.
+
+[41:36] Uh so there you have a side note by the way. Eucalyptus oil is considered to be toxic, but eucalyptus itself is on the uh generator regarded as safe list. As someone who does more research, how is this possible? It's because of concentration. It's the same reason why usually, you can't like usionol's not safe, but clove is because it's just concentrated.
+
+[41:52] Now, Jack, your solution to this problem is You're not adding enough sugar. Well, no, he's saying drinks. You're saying add like buy black strap. Buy blackstrap molasses and add it to a rum and then taste it like that. But it sounds like the the reason that it's too bitter is because you're not adding sugar.
+
+[42:09] It sounds like you're just doing pineapple juice, lime, kampari, rum. Let's assume they're not. But like what you're saying, add some black strap. I think what you need to do. You ran tests on it.
+
+[42:17] You literally ran tests on this, and how was it? It becomes delicious. Okay. What you need to do is make sure that the drink is balanced. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:23] But the point is, is that you can just buy black strap molasses. What brand do you use? What's the the yellow? It's the one with that. It's someone with the god dang barrel of it.
+
+[42:30] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would never use that stuff on its own. Garbage, garbage, no, but yeah. Anyway. Uh, all right.
+
+[42:36] We uh let me see. Isabel from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes in. Uh, thanks for taking my question, Nastasia. If you're still interested in keeping track, I'm a 30-year-old woman married to a 31-year-old man, and I buy all the appliances and kitchen stuff I desire a lot more than he does, in fact. I'm not in a financial place to buy a spinz all yet, but trust me, I will eventually get it.
+
+[42:54] Every year or so, my friend uh who has an amazing kitchen but doesn't cook, so sad, which is so sad. It's so sad. What's the point? What's the point of having it? It's like say I you know what, I have a really nice bathroom, I don't poop.
+
+[43:06] Anyway, uh hosts a party for some of our closest friends, and my husband and I cook a meal for everyone. Usually they are themed. Last year we did Mexican food. This year we'll be doing Italian, or as Nastasi says, Italian. We have uh the menu sorted out, but the cocktails are a work in progress.
+
+[43:22] I'd like to offer up Negronis, that's good. Limoncello. Uh, and something with grappa. I have to say I'm not a huge fan of grappa on its own. By the way, it's hard to say you're not a fan of grappa on its own because they are widely variant.
+
+[43:35] So get some Romano Levi and tell me you're not a fan of Grappa. I like the Nar the Nardini, the one that says aqua vita, that grappa. That's that stuff's good. That's just some good grappa. Anyway, uh so there are very different grappas out there.
+
+[43:50] Not all grappa is crappa. Uh, but the I see, so I'd like to make it amazing. I'm not a huge fan of grapple, but I'd love to create an amazing cocktail with it. And I'm open to pretty much anything that isn't too sweet. My father, of course, if it's too sweet, you like you just hit a trigger.
+
+[43:59] It's just not too sweet. You just hit a trigger with Jack. Because of course it's not gonna be too sweet because it's gonna be balanced. There you go. Uh what you mean is you want it on the less sweet side.
+
+[44:13] That is a valid thing to say. Yes. Yeah. Um this isn't too sweet. My father-in-law brings us grappa and grappa miel, which is like from Uruguay, which is Uruguay grappa with honey in it, which I've never had.
+
+[44:25] You ever had that yet? No, I'd like to try it. Yeah. Uh as mentioned above, we don't have a spinzall yet, so that's the only tool I can't really use. The party will be in about four months uh to ensure we can use the best in seasoned tomatoes.
+
+[44:37] Any ideas, thanks in advance. Give me some grappa cocktails. Drink, just drink grappa. Just you're being unhelpful. I know I am, but like uh it's uh it's a category of spirit that I don't have a ton of experience making cocktails with because of a price point issue.
+
+[44:51] There's one grappa on the market that's reasonably inexpensive. It's called grait. Uh, it's fine. Uh it's good in martini style cocktails as sort of a split-based situation. You can make a sour with it easily that tastes like a sour.
+
+[45:07] There there isn't really a great way to highlight the character of grappa. Some grappas some grappas are really rough. Yeah. Some grappas are more stemy and seedy, and some are more grapey, right? Yeah.
+
+[45:18] So like if you're getting a grapey one, then you could you could just do a fiend green. You can just do a sour. But yeah, but like, so the fiend green is Bobby Murphy's uh drink, and it's it's Armagnac, right? Which is uh unaged armignac. Blanche armagnac, so on the grapier side.
+
+[45:34] Yeah. Right. Well, obviously, yeah, if you're doing a lemon, yeah, chartreuse, a little bit of chartreuse, and then tarragon, uh, a little bit of parsley and chervil, that's delicious. It is delicious. And you could nitro muddle that.
+
+[45:44] That would be delicious. Do they have access to liquid nitrogen in their home? Uh I I don't know. No, but you could you could blender muddle it. Yeah.
+
+[45:55] I also, I also once did a a grap a grappa and pumper nickel actually go well together and grapefruit. So you could do like grappa, pumper nickel, soak the grappa. Acid adjusted grapefruit. Yeah. I'm sure it would be delicious.
+
+[46:06] Yeah. That's what I so I did, I did a I did a I did, I forget what the I forget what the, but I did like an acid, an acid uh grapefruit grappa with I had soaked the grappa in pumpernickel bread and then squeezed it out. It was good. All right, here's here's a spec for you that I'm certain will be delicious. Um so the acid-adjusted grapefruit we're we're talking about is 40 grams of citric per liter of fresh grapefruit juice.
+
+[46:30] So one ounce of that, one ounce of the grappa of your choice, three-quarter channar, three-quarter Aperol. Okay, so and then okay, so Jeremy, you have a question about liquid intelligence. I will get to that uh next week, because it just takes it takes longer to read it than they will allow me to continue to speak here on the uh on the air. Uh also Sid, uh, how do you pronounce how do you pronounce Thor's hammer? Mjolnir?
+
+[46:58] Okay. He uh so Sid says, Miss Nastasia, say it again. Mjolnir. Lopez and the engineering crew, you said hello, but uh I'll deal with your big green egg question. Uh actually, you know what?
+
+[47:11] I'll I'll deal with it. I'll deal with it real quick. So in short, uh you want to use a big green egg. Now, bear in mind that I am not a big green egg kind of a person because big green eggs are all about maintaining a temperature over a long period of time. And I'm all about so I use like a cowboy grill and heat it up to eight billion degrees or a Tandoor and heat it up to 8 billion degrees.
+
+[47:32] I'm not so much with maintaining, I'm not about maintaining, but the big green egg is all about maintaining. So it's a different style of cooking. And you want to use uh uh an also ran um an also ran uh big green egg. I would do this. Here's something, and this is my last piece of advice, and I could talk more about it next week, Sid.
+
+[47:50] But the the point is that um I found out something new recently. You familiar with Fake Spot? What is FakeSpot? Justin, you know Fake Spot? So go to FakeSpot.com, go to Amazon, get the URL from Amazon, and then go to Fake Spot, and then Fake Spot does an analysis.
+
+[48:07] Now it's not 100%, because it's a computer based analysis. Does an analysis of the reviews of that product to try to figure out whether they're real or whether they are a BS and it analyzes the language of all of them, it analyzes the language and everything, and then gives a letter grade based on uh based on like how you know accurate they think the reviews are in terms of whether a human who knows what they're saying has left it and the product that you linked to got a D on fake spot. Now it doesn't mean that they that that's true, but when I went and looked at the negative reviews, one of the negative reviews was someone who said it's fine if you already know how to use a big green egg or other expensive Kamado grill, but it doesn't keep temperature as well, so you have to be very skilled in using it. And a couple other people said the cast iron grate in it tends to be too brittle and shatter with use, and another person said that the bolts melted off. Now they might have just been trying to use it like I would as a jet engine.
+
+[49:03] Right? Uh, and then I wouldn't blame them or blame that, but just read about it and and and look and check out fake spot for all of your reviewing. And uh, Jack, thank you for your coming on. Always happy to be here. Matt, see you guys next week or listen to you, whatever, whatever we do, cooking issues.
+
+[49:31] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org, or connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[49:57] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, and more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage, and thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Paris Gourmet, delivering specialty foods and ingredients right to your restaurant, bakery, and bar. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're bringing you four stories about lost and found culinary treasures. We are searching for what will be lost, and we're trying to rejuvenate it. What we try to do is collect these sourdoughs that contribute to the biodiversity of sourdough in order to store them, to document them, and be able to preserve them for the future.
+
+[0:37] It's bringing back the history and just being part of that time that just it's there's nothing like it. When fame comes late, uh I'm sure it's just as sweet as when it comes earlier. Tune in to this week's episode of Meet and Three. That's M-E-A-T plus sign T-H-R-E-E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:09] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from Hey, whatever I'm not even gonna say when I'm coming to you anymore. Remember this pizzeria and Bushwig Brooklyn! Not joined with Nastasi the Hammer Lopez because she's on a plane from Me Me Me Me St. Bart's, which is a place I don't want to go because uh I hate paradise.
+
+[1:31] I re- Actually, I would like to go there. I'm sure they have delicious fruit and seafood. Meh meh meh. Alright, Nastasia, I know you're gonna listen to this. I didn't get a chance to tell Dave to not say where you were.
+
+[1:40] She specifically told me don't say where I am. It's it's uh I can't use the word that she used, but what? She's gonna be mad at me. It doesn't matter. Well, what you didn't tell me.
+
+[1:52] I know. Why didn't she tell me? That's a good question. Because she's on vacation and doesn't want to text anybody. She's not on vacation.
+
+[1:59] She doesn't want to talk about it. That I know. It's not a anyways, she's on an airplane. She will be back next week when we have as our special guest, uh Seth Godin. Uh he's gonna be talking about uh his books, his blog, everything else.
+
+[2:17] The marketing guy? Yeah. Dope. Yeah, it's gonna be good. He actually used Nastasia uh and I uh and me in a um in one of his posts, which was uh very uh very flattering.
+
+[2:30] That's very cool. I used to read him a lot. Really? Apparently Wait, it's a it's a marketing guy, and he was talking about you? Well, so he has this he has this like kind of you have several books on in theory of like tribes, and he says that you, cooking issues crew, we together form like a tribal stream.
+
+[2:48] I think you're more of a cult. I hope not. Oh my god. Oh my god. By the way, we've discussed this on the air.
+
+[2:53] Remember, it is not the the cults don't actually drink Kool-Aid, they drink flavor aid. Flavor aid. We've had this discussion on the air before, but it's flavor aid. The Kool-Aid is, you know, from the on the bus with the acid, the electric Kool-Aid Acid test. The cult drinking the Kool-Aid in a cult way.
+
+[3:13] And by the way, like, how is it that I I'm not gonna get into it because we've matt Matt in the booth, how you doing? I'm doing great. We've we had this discussion like several weeks ago, right? Yeah, no, and it's a huge PR win for Kool-Aid, I think. We didn't kill the people.
+
+[3:27] It was flavored. Flavor aid people. They're the worst. And they were a knockoff to begin with, the weasels. Nobody remembers Play Rade now, though.
+
+[3:35] So I know, but like, first of all, like, how cheap, how cheap are those guys at Jonestown? It's like, it's not like you're gonna need money after this. Just get the good get the good punch. That's so wrong. That's that's Jack Shram.
+
+[3:50] I was told last week when he came on that I did wasn't enthusiastic enough, so hopefully that wasn't enthusiastic. He's the uh he's the head bartender of uh existing conditions. And we should have if Nastasi is the hammer, you should uh maybe what tool would you be? Some sort of knife. I know that makes me the nail.
+
+[4:09] I was like, Jack, the nail shram. Right? Like that? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:13] All right. And we we uh I don't know, I don't know why she's here, but our other special guest in the studio today is Kat from the Heritage Radio Network, who uh you're also the host of which you're like, what do you like? What is everything you do for the Heritage Radio Network? Everything I do. I am the communications director, that's what I spend most of my time doing.
+
+[4:31] I also're Sarah Huckabee Sanders of Heritage Radio Network. Why would you say that about me? Kat Huckassams. Oh boy. Non-political show.
+
+[4:40] I take it back. We're not talking about it. Um I also co-host Meet and Three, which is the trailer you hear at the beginning of the show. Now, do you spell that with an A or with an E? With an A.
+
+[4:50] Meet and Three, as in the Southern Meet and Three sides uh meal that you would get at like a country restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that's the format of the show. We have one meet story that's like longer and three. All right, near Georgia.
+
+[5:07] Okay. Um, and then I also co-host HR and Happy Hour, which you guys should come be on sometime. Um it's on Thursdays at 5 p.m. And we we're opening a bar right then. Well, I know, but you know.
+
+[5:19] If someone will write you a tardy slip, you can come hang out. I got an idea. Why don't you record it once from existing conditions and we'll serve you drinks? We would love to do that. Let's do that.
+
+[5:28] That's what I wanted to talk to you about later. Can we do it on a non Thursday day? What about a Friday earlier in the afternoon? That sounds great. Love it.
+
+[5:29] Boom. That's a little tease coming up. We're gonna do summer Fridays happy hour. But so Kat, what do you uh what do you hear? Oh, by the way, call in your actually wait.
+
+[5:46] Your by the way is perfectly timed. We have a person on the air. Uh hello, person. You're on the air. Hello, sorry, the uh text was a little bit patchy.
+
+[5:54] Um, has the question about uh fermenting sausages and sous vide been definitively answered? Because I have my own experiences to report on that. Uh has it been definitively answered? So in general, right? I mean, look, I don't I don't know.
+
+[6:12] Like give me the particular question. I don't know whether I uh answered. I'm always kind of loath to talk about. I'm always kind of loath to talk about um things that are relative to um relative to safety, but assuming that you have I mean you're trying to get a pH drop relatively quickly, so it should work in a sous vide thing. It's just a question of whether or not it's possible to have uh crap growing it in the meantime, right?
+
+[6:36] Which presumably why you have salt and uh nitrites there as well. Um what were you gonna say? Yeah, so I I've done it a number of times now with what I would deem to be successful results uh in terms of flavor and and not getting sick. That's just something I wanted to report out. Uh specifically, I was making summer sausage using the uh Safe Pro FLC culture.
+
+[6:57] Right. And uh once they were cased up in their fibrous casings and then uh vac bags and then put in uh sous vide bath, I use 90 degrees for about thirty to thirty six hours. Uh there's no ill effects to report. So it's it seems like an alternative that would work, but I I would give that same disclaimer as well. Yeah, I mean health related dishes.
+
+[7:14] I would love to get uh you know Johnny Hunter uh on, because the reason I pick him is because uh, you know, I know he went through a whole Kickstarter thing um on getting his Hasset stuff done, so he might have some more um to weigh in on on this on the technical side. Um but I mean look it. The it let's say you're doing the standard, let's say you're let's say you're a standard person, like you know, like any of us, right? You're you're packing the sausages into uh into casings, they can be relatively large, right? And then you're doing it traditionally, you're hanging it in a hot, moist box, you know, uh, you know, for however long it takes to get the pH drop you need with the culture you have, right?
+
+[7:57] I mean, that's what we're doing. So it in reality, in the real life, right, the interior of that sausage is you know pretty quickly goes into an anaerobic uh condition and therefore should be growing uh botulism, right? I mean, if it was gonna grow at all, it should be growing, right? I mean, that's the theory. That's why botulism is called botulism after the Latin word for whatever thing it's like saw.
+
+[8:21] You're a food history guy, Jack. Sausage, right? Botulism isn't it? Someone look it up, the Latin for sausage. Anyways, point being that uh the only difference here is that you're immediately putting the entire thing in an anaerobic environment, including the outside.
+
+[8:35] But it's not like the air, uh, it's not like the air is getting to the inside of that freaking sausage during the time that the pH is going down. So in general, if the interior of the sausage is going to be safe, I would say the exterior of the safe uh sausage is probably safe um inside of a a bag, with the caveat that I wouldn't put it in a hard vacuum. Farm meat, the Latin is farcim farciminians stuff. If you keep going, botuless casing sausage. Oh, botchels casing uh come on, Jack.
+
+[9:07] Whoa, listen, don't blame me, blame Google. Blame NYU. That's who that's who educated Jesus. Nobody looks beyond the first result. Yeah, what amazed me was that once I cut them up in the packages after the fermentation period, they remained tight and there was no like even hint of any bad smell, at least to me.
+
+[9:23] Right. Well, I mean, it's really delicious and got better when it was smoked. Uh I mean, it should be look, theoretically, in my mind, it's kind of an ideal environment, right? Because you're not letting other stuff go on it and you can control the temperature extremely accurately, and you're not getting any dry down at all. You don't have to worry about uh the relative humidity or any of that.
+
+[9:42] To me, mentally, it's ideal. It's just I hesitate to say, without having someone done the the hassip work on it, to say that you're totes hundreds safe on it. You know what I mean? Fair enough. Yeah, but mentally it's a great idea.
+
+[9:56] I mean, look at it this way also is uh, you know, when we make sauerkraut, right? We salt the we salt the the the you know the beje I do anyway, because I like salt. Salt the bejesus out of the product, and you put it in a vac bag and it starts going with uh it's lactic acid, uh, you know, Megillocutty there, and it just it turns into delicious stuff, and I never worry about it even even once. Not even once. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:21] So the salt and you're talking about for the sauerkraut, I'll just usually go for a two percent by weight and then fill in with two percent brine as necessary if there's a little too much air space. Yeah, because well, what level of salt do you prefer? I'm just curious. I I I gotta be honest, and this is just proves what kind of a uh of a uh a jerk I am. I literally just I should measure it someday.
+
+[10:41] I literally just toss and taste. I'm like really bad guy. You know what I mean? It's like, but because I have kind of a salt because I am a salty man and I have a salty palate, uh, I'm never ever in danger of under salting it. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:56] Um I know a lot of people are trying to push the edge. I've heard like uh 2% by weight, and I like the idea of adding brine. I think that's a mistake people make. They don't kind of add in um a little bit of brine, and it's always good. And if let's let's say you let's say you've never made sauerkraut before, right?
+
+[11:14] Uh I think a good idea is to um buy some commercially made unpasteurized, untreated sauerkraut. By the way, if any if anyone, I doubt anyone is, but if anyone is listening to this who has never had real unpasteurized, like still alive fermented sauerkraut, wow, you shouldn't do anything else other than go get that stuff right now. I mean it's so good. If you if you've just had the sterilized pasteurized sauerkraut that you get in the average supermarket that comes in a in a polyethylene bag, and you're like, I don't like sauerkraut. Well you don't like baseball game hot dog sauerkraut, which is right.
+
+[11:55] That also makes you a bad person because delicious, just different. Well, it's not actually delicious. It's fine on a hot dog. It's a great condiment. It's not.
+
+[12:03] Have you ever eaten it by itself? Have you ever just sat down and tried to take down a whole bowl of Sabret pasteurized sauerkraut? Have you ever eaten a bowl of yellow mustard? Yes. I'm talking to the wrong person.
+
+[12:17] Yes, you are, Jack. I used to remember. I'm on your team, Jack. Don't forget, I used to take bets, food bets. One of which was I've taken down, I've taken down uh dining hall size things of yellow mustard.
+
+[12:29] I've taken down uh well, no, they're not they're not that fancy. Yellow. Just yellow. Yellow. Yellow brand mustard.
+
+[12:36] And I have to say something about this, Zenf, which is mustard auf Deutsch, Zenf Snobs. I like it. I love yellow mustard. There's I'm just saying. I think it's I actually believe it's a good product.
+
+[12:47] I uh so do I. I also believe that yeah. I like a spicy brown mustard. I like all mustards. I do not, I I'm gonna I hate to say this because you know maybe I don't know, they're never gonna hand me money anyway, it doesn't matter.
+
+[12:57] But I do not like the standard mass per produced Dijon mustard. I've said it on the air a million times. On behalf of HRN, if any Dijon mustard brands want to give us money, I'll we love you. I love that problem. We love it.
+
+[13:10] We can change Dave's mind. Yeah, we hate white wine, we'll dub over to that. I don't hate white wine. Um it's just I've never had one that I didn't think was, and this is one of Jack's favorite words, kind of acrid. Like, I just don't like, especially the one that's got the gray poop on it.
+
+[13:23] Yeah. I don't I don't like it. I don't like it. I love the commercials. I love the I love the Rolls-Royce's.
+
+[13:30] You know, I like poking fun at rich folk, but uh, you know, I just it's not my thing. What about honey mustard? Honey mustard's a product. I think it's look, it's it exists. I got you there.
+
+[13:45] It is a product. Whoa. Whoa. Okay, let's say, let's I'm gonna go back to my 1970s roots. If you're gonna buy an incredibly substandard standard, and I hate to even use this word here, brie, right?
+
+[13:58] Yeah. Right. Right. Listen, because the stuff that we call brie here in the United States, taint brie. Taint brie it's trash cheese.
+
+[14:06] However, it doesn't taste bad. No, got it. It's a good texture and it's kind of a neutral substrate. Yeah, it's like uh ballpark sauerkraut. No, it's not because ball pri sauerkraut tastes flawed because of the preservatives in it.
+
+[14:14] It's flawed. It tastes flawed. Regular garbage brie is like the closest thing to a neutral unit of cheese that you can get. Like more neutral than like it's like on the Colby level of neutral. It's like the brick.
+
+[14:33] It's like cream cheese almost. The brick in the La Bernadette. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The palate neutral. Yeah, the palate neutral piece of Swiss, craft swiss, but it's not texturally neutral, right?
+
+[14:43] Like cream cheese. So brie so in other words, it it actually is good to put um has it do on Croot and bake that sucker with like and that cat is the application for honey mustard is a 70s baked brie. Love it. Also in pastry, like if you bake brie in a pastry, I like that. Yeah, you said on crew.
+
+[15:04] Yeah. Oh. I'm not that fancy. Come on, come on, come on. We have a different caller who's uh been waiting for like five months.
+
+[15:11] All right, geez, jeez, geez, mustards. All right, caller, you're on the air. What's up? Hey, what's up, babe? Hey everybody.
+
+[15:17] Congratulations on Matt on being the first one on time today. Oh, snap! Snap. He's already here. Is he?
+
+[15:27] Yeah, he's already here. I showed up at 10 today. Yeah, I imagine. So there's I have two questions, Dave. Um the first one is about um low temping steaks.
+
+[15:36] I have uh two inch New York strip steak. Okay. And I was wondering how long to cook them for and the temperature. And then the second question would be how to sear them in a pan with the mayonnaise. Oh.
+
+[15:56] So see, I I actually you know what? That'd probably be good. I like uh uh cat's giving me a look. Putting mayonnaise on everything before you sear it. Delicious.
+
+[16:06] So I'm I'm a fan of that. Yeah. But which mayonnaise? Dukes. Oh, come on, man.
+
+[16:10] I have a thing of Dukes in my in my. I've never had Duke's. It's the best. I have a container of it in my house that is as yet unopened because it's very good. Because FIFO.
+
+[16:18] Because FIFO. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna answer this. I'm gonna answer your question. I'm I'm gonna answer your question, but wait, how what did Kanye say on stage?
+
+[16:26] I'm gonna give you your time. I'll let you finish. Yeah, yeah, I gotta give you your time. Anyway, but wait a minute, but like, what is it about Dukes that's so freaking tasty? It's got a tangy zip.
+
+[16:36] So does Miracle Whip, it's not even mayonnaise. Yeah, I know. No, it's it's just like it's fatty with the tangy zip. It's like the perfect battle. Of course it's fatty.
+
+[16:43] It's mayonnaise. But you're saying Miracle Whip, which does is not and doesn't make it a big whip is fatty. It just doesn't have eggs. It exists in like on the spectrum, in between your classic Hellman's and QP. It's not full QP.
+
+[16:57] So you're saying it's sugar. You're saying they put sugar in it. It's southern. Cupie is good because they put sugar in it. Let's just be honest.
+
+[17:05] Let's call a cupie a coopie. They coupie is good on account of the sugar. Also it's amazing. Also, you know, you want to hear another thing why I'm a garbage person? I love I love to buy pre-flavored mayonnaise.
+
+[17:16] Here's some pre pre-flavored mayonnaise I like. I like sriracha mayonnaise. Hey. You purchased that? You know why?
+
+[17:22] Sorry, family show. You can say that here. It's fine. And also here's I I got such a hate down on this from Wiley and Dave Chang. I like Wasabi mayonnaise.
+
+[17:31] I'm gonna go ahead and say it. That stuff tastes good on French fries. Anyway, now back to the question. Wasabi, look, it tastes good, but just like Dave Chang almost punched me in the face when I told him this. I like, and you ready for this?
+
+[17:47] And this anyone who's like, anyone who's like Jack Age and younger will not care about this. But anyone like my age, within within six years of my age, hates this idea on a number of on a number of fronts, but not on taste. Wasabi mashed potatoes taste good. Was that did that have like a cultural moment? That's never crossed my mind.
+
+[18:09] No, it was like it was culturally hated by all the chefs. Huh. Okay. I literally almost got it. Was it like a thing in restaurants?
+
+[18:15] He had to stop himself from punching me. The good old days. Yeah. Anyway, um, what kind of restaurants was this? You also remember back in the day, Wiley and Dave Chang, we used to get in like, I wouldn't say knock down, drag out fights because they never knocked me down and dragged me out of the room, but they wanted to on tongs because both of them are very anti-tong.
+
+[18:35] Very anti-tongue. We can talk about this later. Let's talk about steaks now. So two-inch strip steaks. Two inch is a good call because you're not gonna overcook the inside.
+
+[18:43] Now, I like strip, but strip is problematic on this note. If you pre-salt strip, it gets kind of real, it gets real firm if you're gonna do a cook chill. I'm currently running, I'm currently running the tests on whether or not uh on whether or not it's the chilling in salt that makes it after you cook it, the chilling and salt that makes it firm up. Whereas if you just never chill it and you add the salt, it's gonna firm up. But I know if you cook it, then chill it with salt over a long period of time, it's gonna firm up.
+
+[19:14] If you're gonna serve the steak within, I'd say four hours or so of the minute you throw it into the bath, four or five hours when you throw it into the bath, then you can go ahead and salt it beforehand because it's not gonna have time to cure through. I would take your steak, and you can pre-sear it or not. The issue on pre-searing is it does help develop a faster crust after you you do it. It's not strictly speaking necessary, it does add another step. Um in my tests, as long as you don't uh overcook it after afterwards, uh pre-searing is uh good, right?
+
+[19:49] So the way that other people do it who don't pre-sear is they just sear it longer afterwards. So all the people who say, I'm looking at all you idiots, you know who you are, who are like pre-searing beforehand, it doesn't make any difference. Well, it's because you're not paying freaking attention. It takes longer to sear something afterwards if you haven't pre-seared it. And if you sear it for a long time afterwards, you're in danger of ruining all the good work you've done with low temperature.
+
+[20:14] You're not 100% gonna do it, but it just makes it more likely. Anyways, so that said, I don't always pre-sear because I am, and we all know this, intensely lazy. Okay, so uh you have a two-inch thick steak, which again is a good uh a good call. What I would do is I'd put it in the bag uh with oil, and you know, I I don't really worry anymore about the oil I'm using unless I'm going to take said uh liquid and make it into garlic bread later, in which case I exclusively use butter. But if you are, you know, but the I don't think that the butter necessarily makes the steak that much better, but the butter becomes good.
+
+[20:51] You know what I'm saying? If you're gonna put the if you're gonna put the butter on bread. Anyways, so then uh you get it in there with enough oil such that you can do or butter or whatever, so you can do the Ziploc. I also always, and I know Faron Adria is like, you know, everyone needs salt, but pepper's a spice, you idiots. Don't put pepper on the table.
+
+[21:08] Well, with steak, steak and pepper, they'd be friends. Delicious. They're super friends. So I pepper the hell out of them. I'm just to let you know what I do.
+
+[21:14] Any other notes I have. If it's dry aged, I would cut off the outer layer of fat and the bone. If if you want the entire thing to taste kind of stinky, stinky, stinky, like on the bone dry age, like my man Jack here does. Yeah. Then leave it in.
+
+[21:30] Otherwise, dry flavor tends to permeate. Dry age flavor tends to permeate the rest of the of the stiznake while you're cooking. So I would I would trim away some of the more dry agey parts if you got some squeamishy people in the in this in the sitch, right? You with me? All right.
+
+[21:47] So you have that you have the thing, and remember, remember, here's another thing people make the mistake. Make sure that all of your steaks are only one layer thick, right? So like if you're putting things in bags and then the bags are stacked on top of each other and water can't get through them, they might as well be one piece of meat, right? So you it and it will take forever. Because remember, as you increase the thickness of your product by a factor of two, you increase the cooking time by a factor of four, right?
+
+[22:19] So you go by you go, it goes by the square. It goes by the square of the distance. So already at two inches, you're at a relatively thick. So now I know it's taking me a long time. So put the steak into your bath, right?
+
+[22:30] You know, make sure the sucker's sealed. You don't want water to get in because then you're gonna you're gonna be crying bitter tears. But uh I would do it at somewhere between 55 Celsius and 55.2 or three Celsius, like in that range, right? And I would I would put I would leave it there for uh I would leave it there for at least an hour and a half, all right? At least an hour and a half, right?
+
+[22:57] Now, here's where you're gonna skirt the line. Now I would drop it. I would drop the bath to depending on how much, depending on how much you like to skirt the the the laws of of uh bacteria, right? Between 52 and 53 degrees Celsius, I do 52, right? And then let her ride for like again, depends on how squeamish you are, but like you could do up to four hours.
+
+[23:27] And you could do even longer. But like a little bit, and that's gonna, that's your tenderization phase. If you keep that steak at 55, so 55 is a nice number for that steak, but if you keep it at 55 for a long, long, long time, here's here's the thing. That the the meat will start to firm up more. So it won't happen over, it won't happen instantly, but gradually it's gonna get firmer and firmer at 55, right?
+
+[23:56] So what you really want to do in the real life, and this is the same way with eggs, when you cook an egg, right, you get it up to the temperature you want, and then you pull it back by a degree or two so that it doesn't keep traveling up a little bit. So like 50, if you keep it at 55 and you run it for six hours, it's gonna feel it's gonna feel texture-wise closer to a 56 or 57. So what you want to do is bring her up to 55, drop her back to 50, 52, 53, and then you can ride it for a long time to get the texture where you want it, depending on the particular texture and the grade of the steak that you have, right? But like four or five hours, nice, right? A little bit longer.
+
+[24:37] Then, then, uh, before I sear it, now 52 might be fine for where you are, but even like a couple of minutes a little bit at 50, or pulling it out a little bit and letting it rest a little bit so that when you sear it, you're not taking the inside. But thankfully, since you have a two-inch steak, it's not gonna travel that much up in the interior, especially if you've had a good long soak at like 52, 53. You're gonna have a little bit of a wiggle room on a two-inch steak to sear it up. And I would do slather that sucker, put it on the hottest thing you own. What's the hottest thing you own?
+
+[25:10] Do you own like do you own the sun? Because if you own the sun, you gotta put it on the surface of the sun, get a nice crisp surface on it, and uh you're you're better off doing a um you're better off doing like a series of two intensely hot sears than you like like waa off like that to get the sear that you want on it, because that's gonna produce a better crust than sitting there with a punier, uh a punier heat source and having it uh take a lot longer, just sayings. Yeah, gotcha. I uh I'll do a Kazirin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:44] All right, you're good. This episode is brought to you by Paris Gourmet, a leading specialty food importer and distributor, servicing the New York Tri-State area and beyond, from coast to coast. I'm Jordan Werner Berry, the host of Modernist Breadcrumbs here on HRN. When it comes to freshly baked artisan bread, it's key to pair it with butter that's made with the same amount of care and attention. And you don't have to go all the way to France to find truly amazing butter.
+
+[26:16] Vermont 83% is an American butter made using traditional French methods. It's produced by a dairy cooperative in New England, and as a Vermont native, I love that this delicious butter is made locally by family farms. Bermont 83% is great for cooking, baking, and serving on your table with fresh breads and artisan cheeses. It's proudly distributed by Paris Gourmet to restaurants and grocery stores around the Tri-State area. Learn more about Paris Gourmet and all of their gourmet savory foods and pastry ingredients at ParisGourmet.com.
+
+[26:52] Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Andrew Friedman, and I'm the host of Andrew Talks to Chefs here on HRN. Every week I interview a diverse cross-section of the best and biggest names in professional cooking. Give a listen and get to know all about the inner lives of chefs.
+
+[27:11] You can find Andrew Talks to Chefs wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radio Network.org. And I think it was the New York Times published someone like this published an article recently. Someone did, I think it was maybe my wife Jen, who you know, she's she's hip to this because she's an architect. Uh but I think she sent me the uh like the article, but they're doing now a bunch of research on indoor volatiles in Western standard kitchens, cooking things like Thanksgiving. And guess what, folks?
+
+[27:55] Taint pretty. Taint pretty. Like uh, but that said, who knows what the who knows what like you know, um so basically they're saying, look, they they have an analyzer, a particle size analyzer. So they're analyzing the size of like the smoke, fume, grease, and other particles that we're making in the kitchen, and then they're likening it to other small particles that they think are harmful like the crap that comes out of your exhaust pipe or like if you was a smoker and they're trying to like figure it out but no one I think has because how the heck are you gonna I don't think anyone's asked people with um uh lung cancer so you use cook a lot how many steaks you cook per week per in your kitchen yeah yeah yeah and you know funny to say it but you know professional kitchens by and large when you go into a professional kitchen they're more neutral smelling than they should be considering how much and it's because we have good hoods great hoods you know what I mean why don't apartments in New York have ventilation like there aren't any laws it's awful there are no laws like there's no one that says you have to have good ventilation there's laws that say that you have to have a certain amount of like quote unquote light right so your window can back up on somebody else but every room's got a window yeah every room's got a a minimum size you know uh you have to have a certain number of exits so that you don't burn up you know you need to have your the smoke detectors but nobody cares and uh maybe it's because nobody cooks anymore maybe it's because nobody cooks anymore and like you know that that thing with the grates is where you keep your plates you know what I mean that's the oven people but like uh you know ventilation is so crappy it's so crappy and I know for a fact when they're building buildings no one's thinking I wonder how I'm gonna extract all of this uh just here kitchen smell you know what I mean yeah or smoke back in the old days back in the old days like when you know rich folk lived in big apartments and other people cooked for them, the kitchens were far away because no one wanted to be exposed to the smell. We all want to be exposed to the smell now because it smells good.
+
+[29:56] Smells great. Smells good. But on the other hand, like how many of you out there cook on the regular and notice that all the surfaces of your kitchen are coated in filth? Yup. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:06] And you know what? Like, I think if anyone out there knows like a good defiler, because I don't want to get up on the ceiling with a scrubby and get the polymerized, you know, grease off of the see. It's hard enough to get the polymerized grease off of my pants, which I hang on the ceiling because I feel if a pan is in uh uh a cupboard underneath another pan, I'm just gonna leave. Like, like if you can't reach for it. Yeah, here's another rule.
+
+[30:31] Here if you can't pick it up without undoing, if it takes you five minutes to get your pan, you're not gonna use it on the regular. Right? Here's another thing. If you I've said this a million times, I'll say it one more time. I'll say it, I want you guys to listen because people still make this mistake.
+
+[30:46] Please listen. If you wrap a piece of food in aluminum foil, unless you're cooking it right now in aluminum foil, throw it away. As soon as a piece of food is wrapped in aluminum foil and put back in the fridge, it's garbage. In my house anyway, because I can't see it anymore. I don't know what the hell it is.
+
+[31:07] Throw it away. You know what I mean? Like, just throw it away, you know? And if you put something in a package in the freezer and it's not clearly labeled, please save yourself the trouble. Throw it away.
+
+[31:18] This way, when someone shows up with an ice cream cake, you won't have to then rummage through your freezer, find all the stuff that you're like, I don't know what this is or what it's from, and then throw it away. Just throw it away now. Just admit to yourself that it's garbage and throw it away. You know what I'm saying? I hate seeing things wrapped in aluminum foil in my fridge.
+
+[31:36] Right? And I'm I'm not saying that plastic, I'm not saying we should all use polyethylene and in, you know, until we've, you know, sucked the last like liquefied dinosaur out of the ground. But, right? Like, there is an advantage to being able to see the crap in your fridge. Yeah, I just want to exist in your universe where people just show up with ice cream cakes.
+
+[31:55] It happens, it happens so much. Fudge the whale? No, listen, listen. Oh, I wish. Oh my god.
+
+[32:00] Oh my god, Tom Carvel, I love you so much. Uh anyway, I mean, maybe he was a bad man, I don't know. Like, you know, I I'm kind of glad that we don't know a lot about some of our childhood heroes, that there was no social media. For all I know, Tom, Tom Carvel, but for those of you that don't live in in the Northeast, didn't grow up here, Tom Carvel was the owner and person who came up with Carvel ice cream. Carvel ice cream is fantastic.
+
+[32:21] If you don't like Carvel ice cream, you're wrong. Like it's just delicious. Uh and I can say that because I grew up eating it. Like, is it the is it the highest quality? Is it like, you know, my man Morgenstein was certain who's here for?
+
+[32:34] No, no, no, it's not. It's not. But delicious. Uh and people also make the error, error mistake of believing that just because something is soft serve, that it is a high overrun product. People get straight the difference between the textural effects of temperature and the textural effects of of pumping a crap ton of air into your ice cream because they are different.
+
+[32:58] You can tell when you hold. Now, they might have changed it since I was a kid. It's been a long time since I've had Carvel. But it used to be when someone handed you a cup of Carvel ice cream, or if you picked up Fudgy the Whale or a Carvel ice cream cake, you were like, dang, that's hefty. That is a hefty, that's a hefty hunk of ice cream.
+
+[33:14] Where uh have any of you out there ever run a soft serve machine? Have you? Have you guys ever worked at a milk bar? You wrote a milk bar. So here's a little secret for you.
+
+[33:22] So what happens is that in the average soft serve machine, there's a cylinder and there's a pump. And that there's a little, like it's a little kind of plastic pumping, it goes and it pumps the, you know what I'm talking about, Jack. Yeah. It pumps the ice cream base, pre-chilled ice cream base into the freezing cylinder, right? Now, the manufacturer has an orifice on that.
+
+[33:44] And it's with this orifice that they choose how much air they pump into the cylinder at the same time they're pumping the base in. And so unscrupulous ice cream truck owners or soft serve machine owners can swap out the orifice to increase the overrun. Overrun, by the way, overrun is the is the technical term for how much air you're putting into an ice cream base. So 100% overrun doesn't mean that 100% of the ice cream is air. It means that if you had a hundred grams of ice cream base, you will add a sorry, a hundred milliliters of ice cream base, you will add a hundred milliliters of air to that ice cream base.
+
+[34:19] So you're doubling the volume. So an ice cream with 100% overrun is double the volume of its base. Alright. So they can do like they can do like buck 15, buck 20. So like some of these unscrupulous scrupulous operators will put in an orifice in their soft serve machines to jack the air into the cylinder.
+
+[34:37] And if you walk up to one of these people and you get an ice cream cone and it feels like you're holding a helium balloon in your hand instead of an ice cream cone, watch walk over, and I'm not advocating violence, but punch them in the face. Steaks and ice cream. By the way, I'm also not a guy who feels that like you can't have ice cream and then immediately go eat a steak. You're you're okay with that. I'm 100% okay with that.
+
+[35:09] Why would I not be okay? Ice cream is delicious. Yeah. Steak is delicious. Now what I don't like to do, what I don't like to do is eat a bunch of ice cream and then pound a liter and a half of seltzer.
+
+[35:21] What you should do. What you should do is you should drink the seltzer first and then the ice cream. By the way, when you were a child, Kat, were you very upset by this? Did you drink soda growing up? I did.
+
+[35:34] Okay. Mostly sweet tea though, but some soda. Oh, I hate sweet tea so much. Oh my god. I hate it so much.
+
+[35:39] Let's not go down that road. I like tea. I like sweet. Remember the first time, Jack, Matt, wait on this. Do you remember the first time you realized that your this is the first time I realized that my mouth was not a perfect predictor, right?
+
+[35:53] That like what went into my face was conditioned by what had just gone into my face. I remember uh eating a bunch of ice cream. Okay. I was a small child, and then pounding the soda and not not just because my stomach was inflating, but not being refreshed because the soda tasted warm relative to what soda was supposed to taste like because my mouth had been chilled by the ice cream. And I remember intense disappointment.
+
+[36:20] Like intense disappointment. And I was like, I was like, mom, what the hell? You know what I mean? And she was like, well, if you eat something that's really cold, then the cold but still relatively warm liquids that you're pouring in your mouth won't be as refreshing. And I was just, I was just, and from that point, I just I don't drink after I don't drink liquids after like ice cream for like a couple of minutes.
+
+[36:47] I need it's it's such a disappointment to not be refreshed. Well, the mistake liquid. That's fine. Yeah, like well, I mean the mistake is to not just make a coke flute. Well, so uh Jack and I were gonna make a drink at the bar.
+
+[37:01] Let's not talk about it until it's ready. Okay, but then of course, here's what I hate. Every flavor combination has been come come up with by someone at some point, right? Yeah. With the exception of like uh, I don't know, but I won't get into it.
+
+[37:12] But like uh so Jack and I are gonna do this thing at the bar, and then Bobby's like It's already a thing. It's out of the thing, it's called it's called like uh it's called like a Denver poop shoot. I forget what the heck the name was that he said it was. I don't know, Alabama liquid snake or something. I don't know what it was.
+
+[37:27] But I was like, I was like, Bobby, you know, on the one hand, it's very you need people like that around you at all times because you don't want to you what you don't want is you don't want a guest to come in and be like, this is just like in like a Denver poop shoot or uh whatever it was because an Alabama state. No, we have improved it. No, but our take on you don't want to be caught unawares. Yeah. You want to know, and this is the problem.
+
+[37:52] This is why when you're in this business, you shouldn't fall behind too much because if you fall behind, then people can come in, and if if you don't have if you don't have a like a bam back in their face when they give you the poop shoot argument, then they think you're a jamoke. Then they think you're a freaking jamok. Oh boy. Can't be as a jamoke. You can't, you can't.
+
+[38:14] All right, let me answer an actual freegan question. Can't exist in a minute. And I know we're we're late, but let me wait, Kat, before before we get before Matt kicks us off the air, uh, why are why are you in our studio today? What are you promoting? I just wanted to hang out.
+
+[38:25] But that's a lie. But uh, we are gonna have this event coming up on April 26th. I just want to hang out, but if you're gonna give me the time, um it's we're doing an agave stuff. You took the time. I'm reclaiming this time.
+
+[38:40] Um we're having a agave rare agave taste day on April 26th at the end. The agave or the liquid that they make from agave. Agave spirits. It's called So You Think You Know Mezcal. I bet you Jack does quiz him.
+
+[38:51] I do. I don't know how to quiz you. You know more than me. I'll give you as is uh what are we gonna give her? I'll give you the well, whatever she'd give her a free drinking.
+
+[39:01] Yeah. All right. Name name the agave variety. Most popular, because I'm sure there's more than five, but name the most popular right now in the bar world, agave variety that grows where the pina grows on a stock. On a stalk.
+
+[39:16] Stalk. This isn't the one that was that's like on a mountain, right? Ding ding. Is it on a mountain? It's on a mountain.
+
+[39:23] Oh, I don't I don't know. It's not a big thing. The one that you're thinking of is Tobala. Ding ding. Yeah, I'm not gonna know this.
+
+[39:30] I'm sorry. Madre Quiche. Madre Quiche. The mother of the Quiche. Is that like what does Madrequish mean anyway?
+
+[39:38] I believe it means mother of the Quiche. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway. And we have we have a drink with Madriquish on it at uh existing conditions. Well, with that varietal, and it's got the funniest name of any Mezcal.
+
+[39:49] It's real expensive, real delicious. El Holgoriel. Really fantastic producer of Mezcal's incredible product. Awesome. Drink it.
+
+[39:58] Um this event is gonna be with um a guy named Lou Bank who goes down and gets like rare agave spirits and brings them back. They're they're ones you can't really get stateside. Um he's gonna have five different ones. Um so come check out that. Will they all be a mezcal or will it be the Satol and Ricea and okay?
+
+[40:19] He brings a little bit of everything, and we never really know what he's bringing. Um he we just got back from Oaxaca last week. So uh yep, go to our Facebook page for tickets. Ding diling-dilling. Thank you.
+
+[40:28] Where is this event occurring? At 100 Bogart down the street from the studio. What day of the week is it? It's a Friday. Can you move that?
+
+[40:35] Um no, but I for just for me. But do you do you want Lou to come by the bar and hang out with you guys? Yes. Okay, great. I'll I'll set that up with you.
+
+[40:42] And also, I thought we were gonna get Schroeder on this freaking show to talk about it. He's coming in two weeks. Okay. Yep. And maybe Lou will come too, because they're gonna be here at the same time.
+
+[40:50] They went to Oaxaca together. Oh, really? Let's get them here. Fight! Uh I am calling it now.
+
+[40:54] I will be here for that episode. Yay! Can you be the guy who stayed? What's that guy's name who stands in the back and says, get over here? Scorpion?
+
+[41:01] Is that his name? The Mortal Kombat character. Get over here! Scorpion. Yeah.
+
+[41:05] You can be that guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're gonna have them fight? Well, he would I would be fighting if they're on a team, so yeah. Okay.
+
+[41:13] Well, wait, wait, wait. So, so in Tekken, what's the name of the person who says Hayachi Mishima wins? That's a note. It's like an announcement. It's just the announcer.
+
+[41:22] I love that guy. Yeah, he's great. He's good. You don't like Tekken, though. I sound like it's not my favorite fighting game.
+
+[41:30] What's your favorite? I have no idea what you're talking about. Can we put those Jack the Scorpion Tram? The Scorpion or the Nail? No, we can't because I already wrote the nail on social media.
+
+[41:39] Get over here. That's pretty good. Matt, what's your favorite fighting game? Uh I and why is it Street Fighter? I I didn't play very many spot.
+
+[41:51] I was a shooter guy. Oh. House of the Dead. Now you're creeping me out. You're not willing to go and punch someone in the face.
+
+[41:57] You have to shoot him from far away? Correct. Weak. Weak. Can't even throw a fireball.
+
+[42:02] Marcel called uh Prudent and said, I try making an aeoli with gar Marcel, you probably don't speak this way. Uh I tried making an aeoli with wild garlic tops. Basically, they look like chives. You know, when I was a kid, and I hear some of these are poisonous, I used to run around and rip up the tall grass that smells like onions, and I would chew on that stuff. No, it's because I'm stupid.
+
+[42:23] Okay. Uh but it's not green enough or strong enough in flavor. I'm worried I lost flavor when I blanched them. Uh what is the best way to make uh an ioli with them that will be very garlicky and green while emulsifying the chives into the uh I guess chive like chivalikes uh into the ioli prevent oxidation on its own right, or do I need to blanch or blend alcohol? First of all, most of these uh kind of green garlicky things, they're gonna stay green whether you blanch them or not.
+
+[42:52] I would not blanch them. If you blanch them, you are uh nuking the so look. Look, look, look. When you're date when you're taking uh an allium, right, and you are uh and you they don't develop any flavor until they's cut, right? They develop no flavor until they's cut, because it's an enzymatic reaction, right?
+
+[43:13] Which is why anyone who takes an actual kind of chive and then gives you long like sticks of it, like they're freaking toothpicks, not only are they committing a crime against your teeth and texture, but they're also not producing enough flavor out of the chive. This is why God wants you to take the chives and cut them into very thin tiny little discs. And he they you're supposed to do a good job of it, not have a wet knife, not have a wet freaking board, and not make a pasty freaking mess of your chives. This is what this is this is the reason that chives evolved for you to do that to them. Stop committing tooth crimes.
+
+[43:48] Yes, uh anyway. So then what happens is is that it's the cutting into the tiny discs that's actually making the flavor that we associate with those chives. So by by blanching them whole, you are not allowing that flavor to develop. Now, there is some research that if you blanch them, blend them, and then add raw allium to it that contains its own enzyme, let's say, I don't know, white onion, right? That the enzymes that are in the white onion will bloom the precursor flavors that are in the blanched chive and bring it back.
+
+[44:21] So one solution, if you're actually having it not be uh, if it's actually turning on you color-wise, would be to blanch them and then blend them with raw white onion. And then that should bang, like bloom that stuff out. Maybe not to its hundred percent where it would be before, but it's still gonna bloom it out. The other thing is I would just try raw. How long are you trying to keep this stuff?
+
+[44:45] Like, you're trying to keep it for the rest of your natural life, or you're just trying to keep it for a day or two. In my uh experience, like the green in that stuff's not gonna go bad as fast as let's say mint or or you know, mint's the worst. I mean, mint tastes great. Like mint is one of those things that like that mint's one of those things that just sits there in the corner and taunts you the same way that lime does. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:08] Trying to keep lime, trying to keep mint. You know what I'm saying? Do you use mint at existing conditions? Right now? Yeah.
+
+[45:14] Or in life? In life, like would you? So Jack and I, for years, Jack and I have been uh making as a one-off the world's greatest grasshopper. Oh, it's so good. And then Oh no, we've said this on the air.
+
+[45:30] Oh, I'm not gonna tell people how we do it yet. Not until we have it on. No, but they're gonna come and ask for it now. No, but the point is is that. Guys, don't bother Jack.
+
+[45:38] Point is, point is, and and Bobby, Bobby Murphy, has brought in what's the name of that new vodka that tastes like chocolate, but it's made from rye. Oh, it's the the it's a single malt vodka from where's it from? I thought it was from rye. I thought it was made out of rye. It's barley?
+
+[45:53] Whatever. The whole thing is. Stuff tastes like chocolate. It's good. It's very good.
+
+[45:57] So point being that like we have the technology, not just the technology, the skill and the palate to make like honestly, like I would actually drink it. Now, to get me to drink a bunch of creamy drinks, like you have to give me some drugs or something, like I just don't order that. I like that's not the style of drink that I order when I'm ordering drinks. But this grasshopper is banana lemon dang dong. It's so good.
+
+[46:27] But why have we never put it on the menu? Is it just because we are bad people? The combination of nitro muddle and cream is uh don't tell people how to do it. They don't know yet. As soon as we have it, we will We also have to source uh high quality grating chocolate that doesn't exist at the bar right now.
+
+[46:45] So we can't make it. We cannot make this high quality grating chocolate, aka Valrona. Is the mint like fresh are you using fresh mint to garnish or is it against it? Come on, man. You know we don't garnish.
+
+[46:55] Please. Nitro muddle. Nitro mudd. Okay. As I say as I as I say to my children on the regular slap yourself.
+
+[47:03] Because I'm not gonna hit them. You know what I mean? Am I allowed to say that? Did we answer Sid's barbecue question last week, Jack? There's there's another caller on the area.
+
+[47:14] All right, one more caller and then we'll get ripped off. Then someone, hey, Sid, I can't remember whether I answered your question. Tell Nastasia that I need to answer it. Same goes with Isabel in Vancouver with uh the Canadian Italian cocktails. Did we answer that one last week?
+
+[47:27] Yes. Okay. Uh all right. What's the call? We'll take this last caller and then uh Matt's gonna rip us off the airwaves here.
+
+[47:35] Hey, how are you doing, Dave? All right, what's up? Uh quick question. Last week, uh, you and Jack were both on, and uh Lemoncello came up, and you guys kind of made a face. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:44] Uh so I was curious what could you see? How could you see? I have questions. Where are you? Can you see through sound?
+
+[47:51] Uh an audible face, if you will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay, fair. Yeah, I don't like it. Full stop.
+
+[47:58] Fair? Fair. I I hear you. It just seemed like you had had some particular beef. And on that note, uh, for your celebrity alcohol tasting, uh Danny DeVito has his own brand of Limoncello.
+
+[48:07] I will get him in here. Look, it's not that I think it's Jack, do you like limoncello? I have had examples that are fine. I look, I just it's just look, look, look, look, look. Here, here, here it is.
+
+[48:19] What's good about lemons? Acid. You know what lemoncello doesn't have? Acid. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[48:25] Look at look, it it it it tastes a bit like detergent to me. Like very, very sweet detergent. Yeah. Now, I uh uh it's not flawed. It tastes exactly like it's supposed to taste.
+
+[48:38] It's just in general, that's not the taste I want. Now, I I did a for Pellini Limoncello, I did a Tales of the Cocktail seminar. That drink was delicious. That drink was delicious because we mounted it with salty preserved lemon and made uh one of the best beverages of all time. Correct.
+
+[48:57] So the the issue is is that if I want that lemony flavor, see, the people who make lemoncello, here's what they wake up with. I have this neutral grain spirit, and I got so many lemons. What am I gonna do? I don't have this issue, right? So, like, I'm gonna pay someone who's got a surfeat of lemons to make a very sweet thing.
+
+[49:14] Whereas if I want a lemon flavor at the bar, I own lemon peels, I will use them. Yeah, I own lemon juice, I can use it. I have lemon cordial, I can use it. I have all kind of alcohol. The best lemon cello I ever had.
+
+[49:30] My mom has a Meyer Lemon tree in her backyard, and too many lemons. Made lemoncello delicious. There you go. The reason for lemoncello is you own too many lemons. I got too many lemons.
+
+[49:41] Yeah, but I mean, at the you know, at the bar. We need those lemons. Yeah, but but in other words, like like if you wanted a flavor profile of that was in the lemoncello land, would you get lemoncello, or would you just like make it out of the stuff that we own already? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[49:59] Now, Danny DeVito, by the way, Matilda, great movie. Such a good movie. I love that movie. Whatever happened to her, did she ever act in anything else? Matilda, she was so good in that.
+
+[50:09] Um what about Miss Honey? She ever acting anything else? I don't think so. What about uh the Trunch Bowl? Any of these people ever act anything again, other than uh Rhea Pearlman and and Danny DeVito?
+
+[50:17] We'll look it up and get back to you. I mean, is there a movie? There are movies that are as good as Matilda, but is there a movie that's like better than Matilda? Arguably no. I mean, it's a great movie.
+
+[50:29] Yeah. I love that movie. We quote World All Best Children's Author of all time. I hear he was kind of a rancid individual, maybe. Yeah, probably, but his stories were great.
+
+[50:37] Yeah, yeah, it's true. But uh, we quote Matilda the movie constantly, constantly in the house. Moby, what? Bruce. Bruce.
+
+[50:47] The whole the whole movie. Great. Anyway, I don't even know how we got on that. Oh, Dave DeVito. So uh he's welcome to come on.
+
+[50:53] I respect lemon cello as a product. I respect it as having a cultural history. It's just, it's I never mix with it at the bar. It's not the style. But if Danny DeVito's gonna come on, I will tell him I love it.
+
+[51:05] You know what I'm saying? I hear you. I hear you. Thanks for your take, Dave. Yeah, yeah, cool.
+
+[51:09] Hot take. That was a hot take. What is it? I think it was a room temperature take. What exactly it was a pretty standard take.
+
+[51:15] Well, what define for me hot take. I think a hot take is like a quick, like it's quick. It's like reflexive. So it really probably wasn't a hot take. No, a hot take is an unto is an unpopular opinion.
+
+[51:25] What? But it's one that comes very soon after like news breaks. Now, what is the sandwich a hot brown? It's what? Unrelated.
+
+[51:33] Gravy. Uh open faced. It's like a well Welsh rare bit sandwich. Ooh. Right?
+
+[51:39] I love Welsh rare bit. Me too. It's good. I like a cheese sauce. I like cheese sauce and toast.
+
+[51:45] But uh and I like the word I like the word toast point. Any of you out there ever wants to like see me go, ooh. Oh, it's with toast points. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lovely.
+
+[51:56] Ooh, toast point. Because you never hear that anymore. Anyway, uh I like that a lot more than toast soldier. Give me a soldier. Well, soldier's a different shape.
+
+[52:05] I know, but like I'm staying, I prefer a point. People out there. Better for dipping. What is your what? The soldier?
+
+[52:12] No, the point. Oh, the point. I'd argue it's actually not. I just prefer it because point rather than. The thing is, like, you've just given yourself up, Kat, as a dainty date, dainty.
+
+[52:22] A dainty dipper. You're a dainty dipper. I am a dainty dipper. Because uh like sauce? Love sauce.
+
+[52:28] First of all. Why are you a dainty dipper? First of all, I know this has probably been gone through endless times, probably on this air and all other airs, but is anyone here against the flip dip? No, that's just good technique. It's not a double dip, it's a flip dip.
+
+[52:42] Alright, and you're up. It's the other side. Everyone here is okay with flip dip? Very much okay with it. You bite one side, you flip it around, dip it again.
+
+[52:48] Okay, now let's say the host at your at the party you're at, they buy, as they will because they're bad people. A crappy tortilla chip that's too freaking thin. Some people like thin tortilla chips. They're wrong, right? But it's usually it's all you can buy.
+
+[53:05] Yeah. And you go to dip it, and the sucker cracks off into the what's the etiquette. I like to try to retrieve it with another fresh chip. That is the correct response. Right.
+
+[53:16] You're never allowed to go after it with your with your jersey pincers. No offense, Jersey. I lived there for many years. It depends on how much is like sticking out of the sauce. Like if you can like get it easily.
+
+[53:27] No, you have to excavate no matter what. There you go. Really? Yes. I guess I'm an anti-dipper and I'm very rude at parties.
+
+[53:35] This is why if you buy low quality chips, I'm looking at you, everyone. Uh it's also good. I know nobody look, someone is gonna sit there and eat those freaking carrots. So just have some of those carrots there because they make fantastic excavation tools. Yeah.
+
+[53:50] Like celery even better. What? Celery even better. Celery even better. But but I never the am like the amount of times I'll walk up to like uh like a dipping situation, see that bowl of carrots, and be like, you know what?
+
+[54:02] I'm gonna eat one of them carrots. That happens a lot. I walk up and there's like a thing of celery, I'm like, hey, you got blue cheese? No, goodbye. Goodbye.
+
+[54:10] Goodbye. You know what I mean? It's like maybe just put a spoon in the dip, a small spoon. Hey, do you know anyone that peels the back of their celery before they put it on their crudite plate? No.
+
+[54:21] They should! Hello? Who likes to look at someone talking with that string sticking out of their freaking mouth? Look, I haven't had to have a date in in like 20, whatever, five years, 26 years, whatever, since 1990, like one, right? But like, I mean, how unsexy is that to be talking to someone and have a celery string sticking out of your freaking face.
+
+[54:45] Listen, if you first dates, you could gotta just go for it with food. Because if I can't eat like a whole mackerel or like, you know, some weird dry aged meat or some some strange raw animal out of the ocean, then it's never gonna work. So it's never gonna work. So so uh so someone walks up to Jack and's like, hey, where do you want to go on your first date? He's like, Ribs.
+
+[55:08] All in. You know, it's like if you don't wanna, if you're not interested in going to K-town and eating lots of small fermented cured little bites of things, then you know. And it really's yeah, it's not gonna work. No, but here's the problem with that, right? It's like I think you'd be you'd be better served saying beforehand, like, we're gonna go on this date, but I'm gonna take you here for this reason, and if you have a problem with that, let's not even go on this dinner date because what the hell?
+
+[55:37] I still enjoy conversation. Really? With someone who's not eating the food across from you? I will eat the food. I no, I don't like that.
+
+[55:45] I don't like if I'm with someone and they're like But that's what he says, like, no, but like I I can also be a human. Yeah, you know, I know we're late, but listen to this. So I I think I mentioned last week that Booker decided he's not gonna eat like pork and freaking beef anymore. But Dax. What has he done?
+
+[56:00] Why? I don't know. But Dax, Dax is like, it's not fair! He doesn't talk like that, but kind of, it's not fair! He's like, Booker can change the way the whole freaking family eats.
+
+[56:10] And so yesterday, I'm like, Dax, man, like, I'm gonna do, it's gonna be the same as burgers, but I'm gonna do like, I'm gonna do, I didn't fry it because I don't have the freaking time. I was just like, sauteed chicken thighs. You know, they're good. Yeah, it's a good sandwich. Yeah.
+
+[56:24] And I he cursed a blue streak into my ear about how unfair it was. I was like, Dax, a chicken sandwich is delicious. He's like, but I want a burger! I want a burger. And I was like, Dax, what the hell, man?
+
+[56:40] You did just say out loud, it's the same as burgers. No, well, which is fundamental. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like if you say chicken sandwiches are for dinner. Good snag, good snag.
+
+[56:50] Yeah. What I meant was I'm going to, other than the patty, I'm going to give you all of the same fixings. So for Dax, he will still have bacon. There will be cheese. There will be tomatoes and lettuce and buns.
+
+[57:03] So in other words, all I'm doing is. And then Dax had the freaking stones. Get this, people. He said. He takes after his father.
+
+[57:13] He said to me, Dad. And I don't know how the hell this got into my freezer. But he said, Dad, there are tur turkey burgers in the freezer. And Booker can have one of those and I'll have a hamburger. And I was like, I will not cook a turkey burger in my house.
+
+[57:35] Right? They are, they are the biggest enemies of quality, perhaps in the world, second only to pre-made freaking salmon burgers. I will not cook a salmon burger in my house. Now why? Because they are terrible.
+
+[58:00] Yeah, it's a garbage front. If you were to low temp a turkey burger and then sear it off, maybe you could make a good turkey burger. But turkey is too low in fat anyway, especially the garbage breast meat and stuff that they grind up with no fat in it. And nobody wants a pink inside in their freaking turkey burger. So they all hockey puck those suckers.
+
+[58:23] And they're the worst, driest, crappiest textured nightmares of a freaking sandwich on the earth. I will not allow it into my house. I don't know who bought it or why it's in my freezer. Ditto on salmon, and salmon has the even worse property that if some other idiot makes it for you, they ground it a billion years ago and it is oxidized until the end of the earth is come, so you're eating an overcooked, dry, probably improperly spiced, crappy, oxidized, rancid, dry salmon burger. Now, if you're gonna chop your own salmon real fresh, make it into a patty, not put some god they also bind it with like god-awful amounts of bread crumb and eggs and stuff.
+
+[59:03] It's just a it's just bad. Seafood sausage, good. Made with salmon, emulsified seafood sausage with a with a mousse canels. If you want to make a like a salmon canel, poach that mother off and put it on a bun, you have just won the salmon burger Olympics. But how do you feel about a crab cake on a bun?
+
+[59:22] I'm sure that would taste good. That's not a burger because it's real real bready. So don't get mad at me. I know that I don't care how good you are at making crab cakes, you put some freaking filler in those bad crabs. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[59:33] It's not gonna stay together. Yeah. Uh, I think we're gonna have to go. But I can Dave, can you give us an update on uh the turkey burgers next week? Uh well, I'm gonna go home and throw them out.
+
+[59:44] The update is they are in the trash. I mean, I I feel bad throwing them out, and I'm sure that someone at my house at some point will cook them, but it makes me cry that that is in my house, that that my family's money has gone to support the idea that turkey burgers are a valid, a valid thing to do when by the way, you can just buy chicken or turkey thighs and make a delicious sandwich with them, and nobody feels with it with a with a with a whole thigh piece, right? You can cook it and still maintain a nice texture, but it's just a true fact that everyone will force you to viciously overcook any sort of ground poultry. It's just God's truth. They're gonna make you do it, and then they will sit there and they will spray an entire bottle of what?
+
+[1:00:37] Heinz. Heinz. Heinz. Ketchup on it, right? To try to make it be okay, and they will say, it's they will say, but it's good, I like it.
+
+[1:00:46] And then you have the problem of not only knowing that the person across from you is eating something terrible that you've cooked. So you've cooked something you know is bad and they're eating it, but then they smack you in the face by saying that the product of you, your genetic lineage has such a low understanding of food that they think that what they're eating is good. So you get smacked in the face two times. Biggest mistake people make. Thinking something is good because they like it.
+
+[1:01:13] True. If someone says, I like this, but it's garbage, I'm like, you know what? Fair. That that's a that is a wonderful opinion. You can't argue with that.
+
+[1:01:21] You can't argue with it. Can't this is trash. I like it. Yeah. Then, you know, like like my man Jack, he likes sweetened rumps.
+
+[1:01:28] I'm not gonna get into it, he's gonna punch me in the face afterwards. Anyway, uh, this has been the extended version of Cooking Issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:02:03] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:02:33] Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Patina Events at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, an idyllic location for weddings, corporate events, and parties of any style. Visit us at patinaevents.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're getting semantic to understand the deeper meaning behind some of the foods we love. First, we'll look at the big debate happening around the word milk. Who the hell are you to tell me what is the name of my product and my landscape and everything we've cared about when you know you don't have anything invested in except to put out a little money to buy it?
+
+[0:38] Then we get the lowdown on the language of cider. So the first thing that's really confusing about dryness is that it has nothing to do with how something actually feels in your mouth. And finally, we get our fill of tiki talk. You don't walk into a tiki bar be like, oh yeah, this is what Polynesia is probably like. Like it's it's supposed to be like fantasy and stuff.
+
+[0:57] That's the hard part. It's so easy to do tiki bad, and that's where it gets a bad name. Tune into this week's episode of Meet and Three. That's M-E-A-T plus sign T H R E E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:17] Hello and welcome to Google. Early! We're still going. What's happening? Am I on that?
+
+[1:25] Uh Jesus. Yes! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're also cooking issues coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network. And listen, people, I was here before the clock turned 1201.
+
+[1:36] Not on time. Before the clock turned before the clock turned 1201, I ran with a spinzall, all of my clothes, and gear to go to Houston from the subway, and I made it here before it turned 1201. I called in to our our illustrious radio station here, which has no cell service, and said, start the announcements now so that we don't have to wait for me to get in. But no, there is no there is no communication into the box. Nastassi just goes like this, I can't hear you, Dave.
+
+[2:03] I can't hear, I can't hear you, Dave. And then I get here. So I want all of you guys to know I'm here before 1201. Suck it and blow it out your backside haters. Suck it.
+
+[2:13] I take full responsibility for our incredibly late start. Glad we're off to such a good start today. So as usual, we have uh Anastasia Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Fine.
+
+[2:24] Yeah? We got Kat in the booth. I don't know why. She's just here with a camera. I don't really know.
+
+[2:28] She's not out of micro. Sit at the microphone. You know you can't be in here without being in a microphone. You make it behind? This is we're getting really good quality clips of cat walking.
+
+[2:40] Yeah, we got we got uh you got good clomp. You got clook good clump on the mics there. She's clomping. Street, sweet. Uh I got Matt in the booth.
+
+[2:46] How are you doing, Matt? I'm feeling great. We already have a caller, in fact, but we can, you know, we can wait a minute. You can wait like 35, 40 seconds, something on that uh in that range. And we have as our special guest today, uh author, podcaster, marketing, uh genius, entrepreneur, lover of food, uh Seth Godin.
+
+[3:04] How you doing? I am fantastic. So, how would you like us to call in all of like so uh, you know, uh in preparation, I was reading and listening to some of the podcasts. I'm gonna characterize kind of what I'm getting, which is you're trying to help people figure out how to do something if they don't necessarily know the best way to get from A to B. They know they want to move, they know they want to make something, but they're not sure that they have kind of the best strategy to get there.
+
+[3:29] Is that fair? That's part of it. I think culture is a system, and if you see how the system works, you can make culture work for you and not against you. And I think that people are afraid to make things better, and I am trying to encourage them to make things better. Like you, I am against the enemies of quality.
+
+[3:45] Exactly. Yeah. Seth brought brought us some uh small wooden kind of ice cream spoody things that say enemies of quality on enemy of quality, which I I very much appreciate. Laser those? Yeah.
+
+[3:56] I have an interesting laser story we can talk about if we have time later. I was saying we could talk about, if you're interested, later we can talk about new design machines, old design machines, and the systems, and then lack of repairability on some of the new designed machines, uh and how that works out. But in the meantime, uh, since uh we have a caller, why don't we uh I'm sweating like a I'm sweating like a just about to be executed pig. Uh why don't we take that caller? Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[4:25] Yeah, hi, how's it going? Uh my name is Steven from Washington, D.C. How you doing? Good. How are you?
+
+[4:31] All right. Um, so I I have a competition barbecue question for you. Shoot. Go. Cool.
+
+[4:43] Um, so you know, I have I have uh not a ton of experience. I'm about to enter my first like Kansas City Barbecue Society competition, and I've got some real questions about brisket. Okay. And so, you know, they do a lot of different injections uh that you can find kind of uh these these proprietary blends of things you can inject your brisket with. And so there's always cooked a beef stock, and then there's matter and other ingredients.
+
+[5:09] So they put a lot of sodium glutamate in it, they put uh sodium phosphate in it. Yep. Um they put sometimes there's like hydr hydrolyzed uh plant-based proteins. Yeah, so I was wondering like if you could point me in the right direction on how to start about one on my own if I have all those individual components. Okay, so I mean all those are there because i here's what they're worried about.
+
+[5:31] They're barbecue is delicious. Before anyone jumps on me, you like barbecue, Seth? Uh-huh. Vegetarian? I don't eat meat.
+
+[5:39] No eat meat. Fine. If I ate meat, I would love barbecue. Okay, okay. So the the issue with barbecue is is that the the everyone wants to do it in kind of a traditional way, and the and the enemy of barbecue is kind is is dry dried and moisture management.
+
+[5:53] Moisture management. It's the miracle of moisture management. So that's what all those ingredients are there for. They're allowing you to beat the snot out of the meat and still maintain some moisture in it. So the hydrolyzed vegetable protein is there uh as a uh water holding agent.
+
+[6:08] The phosphates are there as a uh a water holding that actually makes the meat itself hold on to its water better at higher temperatures. And uh I forget what the other one you said was there's oh the the the meat stock is there just to inject flavor into it and extra moisture that's gonna be pumped out of it as you deliciously but viciously overcook it in the barbecue process. Um so I mean all those things uh you know, all those things work. I mean, y they the I don't remember the percentages. Um you know, but you can look up uh like I I used to I did once uh I don't know if any of you remember remember Josh Azerski?
+
+[6:44] Yeah. The uh he d he once he was obsessed with juiciness. He was obsessed. He kept Dave, juicy steaks. Let's go talk about juicy steaks.
+
+[6:53] He took me most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life. The most uncomfortable lunch I've ever had in my life is with Nastasia Lopez, where she was completely angered that we were listening to somebody's discussion of their bowel ailments and other things, and in return got to taste more citrus than we have ever seen in our entire lives. But she has still never forgiven me for forcing her to sit through that uncomfortable lunch. The most uncomfortable dinner I ever had was at a strip club when Adam Perry Lang was, I would believe it was the Penthouse Club or something out of the strip. Anyway, so like I had to eat and discuss juicy steaks while uh you know people around me were getting lap dances, which I don't know for those of you that don't know me, that's not my thing.
+
+[7:31] Like, like I like I just I didn't appreciate the whole that the atmosphere of it doesn't make sense. It doesn't mix it mixing that kind of stuff with food is not my anyway. Uh so I kind of proved to him that juiciness isn't so important because I took uh sodium polyphi, you know, sodium um uh shimp, you know, uh sodium hexametophosphate, and uh brined it into a steak and made the steak increase its uh weight by about 10-15% in water, and then cooked it, and lo and behold, I had a juicy but not so flavorful steak. So mostly, you know, back in the old days, people would make stuff uh and it would be fine with without any of that. I think all of that stuff's just giving you wiggle room.
+
+[8:11] And so I don't really I'm also not opposed to it, I'm not opposed to it. The MSG is gonna you know increase the flavor profile. I would just say, I would just start with some tests. Don't go too high on MSG. I think that's the mistake people make is that when you when you start add a little bit of MSG, it's great, and then all of a sudden you can tell that MSG was added, and as soon as you can tell MSG was added, it's a little bit off-putting.
+
+[8:32] Uh in the same way that like, ooh, salt, ooh, that's good, ooh, salt, salt, salt. And then at a certain point, that little bit of extra salt, you're like, ooh, my ooh my, that's salty. But like MSG, I think has a sharper inflection point. There's a wider range of properly salted things than there is a wide range of properly MSG'd things. The uh the shimp, the sodium hexametophosphate, or whatever sodium, you know, whatever phosphates you're using, you're not gonna really, I don't think.
+
+[8:57] I mean, we you can look up the literature on it. Uh, but that stuff's fairly widely available uh online. If you just type in phosphates, water holding capacity, uh meat, just like type those things like phosphates, water holding capacity, meat. Like that stuff is pretty well defined even on the on the you can go find it literature in the non-technical literature because uh industrial and commercial people use it. Uh, you know, I'm not against that either, but just realize that you know you're injecting hopefully with meat stock or something with flavor because there's a whole group of people I happen to disagree with them, but people like Kenji who are anti-any sort of what adding water to meat because you're not adding uh it's not flavorful to water that you're adding up.
+
+[9:36] You know, I I don't agree with that. Also, like, you know, there's uh Harold McGee, who you know I love and respect, also at one point said not to brine turkeys because then it made the gravy inedible. Uh you know, I have workarounds for that. Look, for every work for everything that you for every application of a technology or ingredient, there's secondary things you need to change. So, you know, I think all of it's valid when done, when done properly.
+
+[9:59] Um have I answered this question? Well, if you want to win, there are only two ways to win. You win by fitting in all the way or standing out all the way. So to fit in all the way, you have to do it the way the current people are doing it, but even more. And if you want to win by standing out, you have to do it differently than the people who are winning or doing it, and that's the first choice you gotta make.
+
+[10:17] Seth should be here every time. Well, I thought I've gotta I've got a plan or uh a part B for that question related to that. Nastasi's gonna kill you, but hurry up. What do you got? So uh convention they say that you know, internal temperature for brisket should be somewhere between 195 and and like 205 dish.
+
+[10:34] Why is it so high? Why don't they smoke to 150 uh lower than that? Oh, it well, it's be look, first of all, when you're dealing with a traditional product, I'm gonna go back to what I'm gonna just gonna every every for every question is gonna go back to what Seth says. What you're shooting for is traditional brisket product, and traditional brisket, if you cook it normally, i.e. don't overcook it, right?
+
+[10:53] It's incredibly tough because the connective tissue makes it uh almost inedible at that point. So the traditional way of of cooking it is to cook it to a very high temperature such that the gel such that the collagen and connective tissues render into gelatin. It's that gelatin that gives you the uh the appearance that you haven't viciously overcooked it, makes it quote unquote fork tender. But those what you're fork tendering it into are kind of shreds of viciously overcooked meat, right? Now, that's the texture people are shooting for, and so that that's kind of what they're looking for.
+
+[11:24] They're looking for a juicy equivalent of that meat that can be pulled apart with a fork. And at 150, it's never gonna it it will it won't do that. What will happen instead? Let's say you were to cook it for 72 hours at a low temperature, those fibers won't get as hard, right? They won't get like flaky apart like that, they'll get more mushy, you'll get softer.
+
+[11:46] That's also not what they're looking for. And so I think you know, Seth is completely accurate here, and he's saying, do what they want just more. That's why they're adding MSG. It's what they want, but more. You know, like a little bit more liquid, a little bit more beef flavor.
+
+[11:59] It's what everyone's looking for, but more. If you go outside of their textural parameters, you're gonna lose. I I'm gonna have to say that in competition food competitions, especially, I've never seen anyone win by going completely outside of the box. I call this losing with style, and I think this is a a a valid thing to do, and I have lost many contests with, I've believe, immense style. And there's honor in this.
+
+[12:23] Uh, but in general, uh you know, it's you know, you never, you never win in those kind of things other than by choice one, which is to do what they're doing, but more so. Well said. Okay. Okay. Awesome.
+
+[12:35] Well, on that note, I'm gonna play around with some koji, so I'll let you know how it goes with the brisket. Cool, thanks. Thanks, bud. All right, so Seth, what'd you bring us today? Well, I I I brought you a rye bread.
+
+[12:45] There was a lot of debate. Should I bring you dal? Should I Dosa? I couldn't bring you. Because it wouldn't last.
+
+[12:50] It wouldn't last. Um but instead I went with the rye bread. I have a little grinder in my basement, and I buy the rye berries at Union Square Market. And the only ingredients I add are two kinds of barley malt, the powdered one and the liquid one, and walnuts. That's it.
+
+[13:05] I have to add walnuts, even though my friend Ishita is deathly allergic to them. I just put a little sign up. No walnuts. Do not eat these, yeah, yeah. You know, I hope someday they can kick these allergies.
+
+[13:14] Uh yeah, I they're making progress. So here's the secret of the rye bread. The secret of the rye bread is it's 12-hour bake. So you have the super low and so this is like like full-on, like I would call it German style fork full corn broat, like long, long bake, turns dark on its own, no caramel color, et cetera, et cetera. No caramel color, but I I cook it at 475 for an hour and a half, then I turn the oven off and go to bed.
+
+[13:37] So, how much do you dislike people who associate the flavor of rye with the flavor of caraway seeds? Oh, there's no uh like yeah, epochs on them. Yeah, right. I think that's accurate. Most rye bread isn't has no rye in it, or just uh like they wave a rye berry over the thing.
+
+[13:52] Right, and it's in the ones that use it are like uh like the what's this what's the standard? Uh the standard American deli rye, uh New York deli rye is well, what's it called? Levi's, levees? What's it called? You don't have to be Jewish to like levee's rye bread.
+
+[14:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh it's fine. It's a fine sandwich bread, by the way. It's a fine sandwich bread, but uh it's the rye is totally refined. I get almost no rye flavor.
+
+[14:15] So that's so so for those of you that don't eat uh you know the Danes also have a uh a full con full corn broat uh oh yeah there's some really good Danish stuff. It's that whole middle and northern uh of Europe they know listen. We're talking, smells great. We're talking like this is like uh for those of you that live in lands where this is only in a supermarket, the brand of full corn broat you can get is relatively moist. Uh uh messer, what's it messer, Messermacher, Messermeyer?
+
+[14:42] The one that comes like in a square and it's all sliced up and it sits there for a week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yes, if you taste it. It's it's it's very tart and kind of moist, but it's like you are you for that thinness level?
+
+[14:55] Yeah, I like it. When I cut this, I cut it as thin as I can. Oh, here why don't you go? I'll try not to cut anybody when I get it. You know cut into the mic.
+
+[15:02] Now, I don't know if you know this, but listeners of the show don't mind cutting noises, but hate mouth noises. They hate it. Yeah. Let me see here. I'm gonna put my glasses on.
+
+[15:13] There are mouth noises about to occur, though. I I I don't know how to apologize for that. Nastasia, there you go. It's gonna become an ASMR show. I'll just I'll just bleep the next 10 minutes of the show.
+
+[15:23] Do you know that like my son Dax has started saying whatever the initials are, whatever the acronym is, and he doesn't have any idea what it means. I don't think he watches that stuff. You ready for a mouth noise? I think people don't mind this particular noise. It's the it's the formp womp womp they don't like.
+
+[15:37] It has to be a low moisture noise. Okay, uh crushes. That's okay. But now it's that, yeah. Sorry, I forgot to bring radio friendly food.
+
+[15:51] That was my fault. I can handle it. The feedback is welcome. Oh, the maltiness really comes through. You think the this, well, the sweetness is conversion from are you using diastatic malt?
+
+[16:02] Are you using completely sorry? It's got like a it's I'm gonna eat during the commercial break. I'm gonna eat more. But it's definitely got a sweetness. I like it.
+
+[16:11] I like it. I quite like it. I would like some cheese. Yeah, it's great. I'm gonna take some to Matt.
+
+[16:15] I've gotta go. What? It was so great to be here. Thanks for watching. Well, we haven't even got a chance to uh mess with you.
+
+[16:20] It was very thoughtful. I am so sad. I will say the mezcal tasting that I talked about last week is in the times today. Yeah. It's gonna be you, Dave.
+
+[16:30] Uh, how is it thank well? Because we talked about it last week. Yeah. So when is the mezcal taste? It is April 26th, which is a Friday at 6 30 p.m.
+
+[16:37] just down the street at El Cortez. Do people have to reserve in advance? There are tickets available online. Where do they go? HeritageRadio Network.org/slash sacred.
+
+[16:46] Okay. S-A-C-R-E-D. That's right. Perfect. Thanks, Seth.
+
+[16:50] Seth Godin for the win. Seth's so nice to meet. Wow. I was saying we need to have him here. We need to have him here all the time.
+
+[17:02] Patina Restaurant Group offers unparalleled service in New York's most iconic locations, including Lincoln Center, Rockefeller Center, and Macy's Herald Square. Patina is also the exclusive caterer at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. From meetings and presentations in the glass walled atrium to gallas in the renovated palm house and intimate wedding showers at Yellow Magnolia Cafe. Your event will be perfectly imagined and customized at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. You can also enjoy a la carte brunch and lunch at the picturesque Yellow Magnolia Cafe overlooking Lily Pool Terrace.
+
+[17:37] Executive Chef Morgan Jarrett's unique menu offers warm, distinctive cuisine with a focus on local vegetables, grains, and sustainably sourced meats and fish. Hey, are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Kathy Irwin, and I'm the host of Eat Your Words here on HRN. Every week I sit down with food writers to talk about their newest work.
+
+[18:00] From colorful cookbooks to food memoirs to expose on the food industry. It's all meaty topic for discussion. You can find Eat Your Words wherever you listen to podcasts and on HeritageRadio Network.org. Hey David Alex is Alex from Long Beach. How y'all doing?
+
+[18:20] Alright, how you doing? Doing fine. I have two questions. One relating to carbonation and one relating to uh a little combine I have. Related to carbonation, I have a little taggerator that I use, the carbonate water.
+
+[18:32] I live in an apartment. I do it at 34 Fahrenheit and 45 PSI, and it just comes out amazingly fat. I give myself a little aesthetic bath each time I do it. I'm wondering if there's any quality of life improvement I can have that doesn't come out blasting at me. Yeah, okay, so you keep the keg in a refrigerator and you carbonate it out out of the refrigerator.
+
+[18:56] And you're doing it at 45 PSI. What kind of tap is 45? What kind of tap are you using? Whatever came with it. Now that's your mistake.
+
+[19:03] All those taps are garbage. Yeah, they uh people need to be people need to be. People who sell things don't necessarily understand or use them. This is the secret, one of the secrets I've learned in like my life is that the people just because someone sells it does not actually make them an expert in the usage of said thing. What kind of tubes do you have?
+
+[19:22] Are they clear vinyl tubes? Correct, yeah. Yeah. The press look, this person might not be a bad human being, but uh like those tubes eventually, I mean, maybe not in your house, but like if you were gonna beat them up or have them in a professional environment, those tubes will fail. Uh I only use braided uh braided tubes so that they don't fail.
+
+[19:45] Uh also I hate, I hate PVC. If I need to use PVC, if I buy from the beverage suppliers, they sell the cheap braided PVC. It invariably smells bad, makes me very angry. You can get, it's a lot pricier, but you can if you must have a flexible, flexible tube, you can get uh braided uh Tigon. If you buy Tigon on Amazon, people will rip you off and give you regular PVC instead of Tigon.
+
+[20:09] Tigon's a high purity PVC, and it's still, if you hate PVC, it's still PVC, but it uh it tends not to smell, but it's you know, on the order of like, you know, between like a like two dollars, two dollars fifty, three dollars a foot, somewhere like this. Spring for that. It's a lot more. Yeah, well, it depends on how many feet you're running, and you know, uh, but it you know, gas you can run in a regular braided P VC line. Please don't run gas in an unbraided line.
+
+[20:35] Eventually someone will puncture it. And then, and if you really need something tough, get the um get the uh polyethylene EVA jacketed stuff. It never imparts any flavor whatsoever. And I've never seen it fail, and I've tried to make it fail. Repeated abuse will not make it fail.
+
+[20:49] Second thing, when you're filling up a kegerator, uh remember to fill it completely with water and then purge it out with CO2, then pressurize your stuff into it if you want to make sure that there's no air into it, if you're using a carbonator. If you're already getting a good enough, the reason you're foaming is one, your tap stinks. Go get a uh a Becker. Uh don't get the Cornelius one, actually, it's been failing me. Get the Becker uh squeeze valve, get that.
+
+[21:14] That's the first thing you need to do to put into your line. Those picnic taps are the worst thing that's ever happened. The second reason you're foam, you're putting it, you're not putting it through a cold plate. Second thing you're need, because you're in a kegerator. Second thing I would do is run it through about 15 foot of hose on the inside of your 15, 20 foot of hose on the inside of your refrigerator to give it time to kind of like laminar and slow out before it uh leaves your tap.
+
+[21:39] Try it. If you if it doesn't help, then take it out. There's no reason to have that extra tube there, but give it a shot. And the third problem is is that you it sounds to me like you have some air in your system. And when you have air, when you haven't purged it, like the thing I told you to get rid of all the air in by either you can you can pressurize and and and uh vent a couple of times at the top the thing to get it to go.
+
+[22:00] But if any air is remaining in your system uh under pressure, when you release the pressure, the things like nitrogen, which are and oxygen, which are almost completely insoluble, will form micronucleation sites the minute they come out of the tap and foam out on you. So get rid of your air, uh maybe add some tubing uh before the outlet, and please throw away that picnic tap and get a decent tap. And for those of you who aren't yet on the seltzer lifestyle, you have persuaded my son who has built one in my office as well. You've got the nitrogen seltzer, which you don't talk about enough on the air. There's a lot to be said for the seltzer lifestyle.
+
+[22:35] It's worth a try. You know, like you take water that comes in, which by the way, I hate flat water. I I won't drink it. Like my sons are like, you know, I I will if I have to, but I'm forced to, if I'm dehydrated. But I threaten my family with because I don't want them to put me in seltzerless situations.
+
+[22:50] Uh like they, you know, I threaten them that I just won't, I will just, I will let myself dehydrate into a raisin rather than eat, you know, drink non-carbonated water. And so they kind of make fun of it of me for it. But uh honestly, you know, it's not it's a little bit of a hurdle to like make your life carbonated, and it's totally worth it, you know. And it's it's actually, you know, it's it if if getting a soda stream is what it takes to get you there, then get it get a soda stream, but there are cheaper ways to have infinite seltzer. Um anyways.
+
+[23:23] Hopefully I answered that question. Nastasi's like, I don't care. I don't care. All right. So uh what do we want to talk about?
+
+[23:29] What do I by the way? If you're gonna listen, which one of the podcast you Akimbo is the one that you want people to listen to now or no? That's my podcast. If they want to listen to it, that'd be great. Here is a uh, and uh here is here is an uh a word to the wise.
+
+[23:43] I am um I'm stubborn, and so like I started listening to it in reverse. I'm like, I'm gonna listen to the most recent stuff first and then go backwards. And I realized, not after the most recent one, because you didn't take questions on the most recent one, but on the one after that, that you were gonna answer questions from the podcast before on this week's podcast, and for some reason, this didn't encourage me to then start working from the back and going up. For some reason, I'm like, I'm just gonna listen to questions without knowing what the heck he's talking about. And I kept on doing that.
+
+[24:17] And then like later on, I'd be like, oh, now I get what that question was about. Anyway, so you know, a lot, a lot of uh a lot of uh uh, you know, again, it's like you seem to have like a very kind of open view of what a creator is, right? Yeah, and most of the stuff that I've heard you talk about or you know, read the the the work is aimed at people who want to do something, you know, creative writ large. You make new things, make things better, right? Yep.
+
+[24:44] Focus on make things better. Now, here's a question for someone who runs uh, you know, or helps to run uh a bar uh or a restaurant, or you know, Nastasia ran uh, you know, the the Outlet Apostifly, or Nastasia and I run Booker Index. Right. You're not always, and maybe you shouldn't even always be working with creative people, right? So, like it seems to me that there's kind of a, and the other thing I'm gonna say about your work, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go because this is gonna get kind of like hard for people to understand if they don't already already familiar with your work, is that um a lot of like it, and this is kind of what I like, is that you you're focused a lot on kind of your personal response, personal responsibility, in other words, in inwardly focused, like what you can do about yourself.
+
+[25:34] And the you know, the more I was reading, the more I'm like, okay, look it. I tell my kids this all the time. Don't be concerned about externalities. In other words, what's fair? Don't be concerned that that person has more money than I do, or that person has some sort of benefit that that I don't have.
+
+[25:51] Focus only on stuff that you can control about yourself. But the flip side of that is if you can design a if you're designing a system, you do have to worry about kind of fairness, and not everyone can, you know, then I also have to worry about people that can't be creative, and then what does it mean to be good to someone like that? It's not to try to necessarily force them to be better at being creative, right? I mean, like I was with you until the last sentence. Well, I'm in other words, I have people who I think makes them feel completely uncomfortable to there's people who really desire the safety of just knowing what to do.
+
+[26:29] Right. Yeah, right, right. I'm not in other words, so your point is only I'm gonna let you answer it large, but in other words, your point is that someone who wants that safety net, give them that safety net if that's like give them the chance to be that creative person, but then do you really think we should try to force someone to be that person even if they're not? So the reason that I love the two of you, and I do, and I've been listening since before you were famous and been to the bar, um, is because you have a growth mindset. And the growth mindset says things could be better.
+
+[27:03] And once you acknowledge that things can be better, the next step is, and I could make them better. That I don't have to make macaroni and cheese the same way every time. I could make my macaroni and cheese better. I believe everyone at one point in their life has made something better. And once you can make something better once, you're a creator.
+
+[27:23] And if you're a creator, you can do it again. And if we live in a culture where everyone is trying to make things better, then we can have interesting conversations about what does better even mean. Does better mean more open, more diverse? Does better mean just one person wins? Those are interesting conversations.
+
+[27:38] But we have to begin with, guess what? You can make things better. And my career coincides with the birth of the internet. And what that means is you don't need CBS radio to give you a show. You can make your own show.
+
+[27:51] You don't need Julia Child to tell you you're allowed to cook something for a recipe. You can make your own recipe. And that's where Kenji came from, right? Like, who was Kenji? Kenji didn't have a permit, but Kenji showed up, shared something he had to say, and some people wanted to hear it.
+
+[28:08] So, in the face of all that infinity, my argument is see the system, make it better. And that's what I just keep saying over and over and over again. Be responsible for your work, and nothing is fair, but at least you can make it better. Kind of related to that, I'm also a firm believer that uh just because you know there is so many more people doing things now doesn't mean that everyone's that much better. In other words, it doesn't make it that much harder for you to do something if you have something to say.
+
+[28:40] Right. Because you can be interesting, you don't have to be correct. Right. And also, just because everyone can make well, it's just gonna show my age. Back when people actually wanted to make magazines.
+
+[28:52] Remember when color when color printers first came out? Yeah. You're like, oh my god, anyone can make a magazine now. You don't need to, you don't need to work to make a magazine wrong. Yeah.
+
+[29:02] Like you still need to be good to make something good. Just because it's easier to make something glossy doesn't mean it's easy to make something good. Exactly. So, you know, typography ran screaming after they came out with desktop publishing, but true topographers figured out that just because people have fonts doesn't mean they know how to make things that look good. Right, right.
+
+[29:20] Uh, what do you think about our uh our uh belief in self self in friendly self loathing? Are you alright with that? No, I think it's not all right with that. The reason I'm not alright with it is there are already enough people in the world who want to who get pleasure out of bringing us down, who get pleasure out of criticism. You don't have to do it to yourself.
+
+[29:38] Yeah, but I don't know. Like I feel, don't you know people who have I guess the drive for self-loathing stops you from becoming complacent, right? If you use it properly, but what it really does is it gives you a place to hide. Yes. Because you're experiencing failure in advance over and over again.
+
+[29:59] Oh, yeah, but I'm all about the failure. But you're not all about the failure. I'm super pro-failer. Look, here's the thing. If you don't fail, if you if you don't, if you can't handle failure, you'll never gonna you're never gonna succeed.
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+[30:10] If you can't handle different kind of failure. Yeah, you're working really hard. I did something to see. But if you fail in advance, you never did it. You're just giving yourself an excuse.
+
+[30:23] Yeah, yeah. I see what you mean. So you're saying it can be misconstrued. I'm all for doing things. Right.
+
+[30:27] Totally down with that. It's just what paralyzes people, you know, I'll give a talk and people won't raise their hand. And then at the end they all run up to ask you their secret question. Like, what was wrong with asking me your question in public when I was there to answer your question? Well, it might have been stupid.
+
+[30:43] So you're willing to ask the quest the stupid question in private, but you're not willing to ask the stupid question in public. That creates a cycle of constant experience of failure in private, which doesn't benefit anyone, versus your generous act of being willing to fail in public because you put something into the world and at least we learned one new thing that doesn't work. Both Nastasia and my partner Don dislike most public questions because they don't think the person actually has a question. They just think that the person, well, what's how the way you put it, they just want to say something. I have a question for Dave.
+
+[31:19] They want to let Dave know that they've been working on something. Then those are the people that speak up. The people with actual real stuff don't. I don't know. I have no opinion on this.
+
+[31:29] I know you don't. No publicly shareable opinions on this. Okay, I'm just messing, I'm just messing with you. Here's another one. You have an interesting idea on kind of, and this goes to, I think, to chefs and cooks a lot.
+
+[31:40] So let's uh you you talk a lot about writer's block. No such thing. No such thing. And it applies to, I would assume any sort of I need to create something. Painting, cooking, right?
+
+[31:52] Now you want to talk a little bit about your view on writer's block first, and then I can I can't do it. It's controversial. I have been I have been poked and queried on this topic. I think writer's block is invented. No one gets plumber's block.
+
+[32:03] No one gets walking block. Where did writer's block come from? Well, if you look at the literature, there was it wasn't even used as a term before 1925. It was invented by Ernest Hemingway and the Great American novel. That before that, writing was a thing you did in your spare time, and it wasn't a referendum on your quality as a human, it was just an act that you performed.
+
+[32:25] And so if we say I don't have any good ideas, what we're really saying is I am not willing to work my way through an unlimited number of bad ideas on my way to finding a good idea. So I was friends with Isaac Asimov years ago. I did a project with him. He wrote 400 books, published 400 books. I said, Isaac, how do you do that?
+
+[32:47] He said, every morning I sit at this typewriter, 6 30 in the morning, and I type for five and a half hours till noon, and then I'm done. And it doesn't matter if I type something good. I just have to type. And once your brain sees you're gonna type one way or the other, your brain will come up with something decent. And the same thing is true if you're trying to develop a new recipe, if you're trying to open a restaurant, if you're trying to do anything.
+
+[33:09] If you you're you persuade the resistance, as Pressfield calls it, that you're gonna do it and you keep doing it, sooner or later, one of your bad ideas will turn out to be a good one. So I've blogged every day for 7,000 blog posts in a row, and I don't blog tomorrow because it's perfect. I blog tomorrow because it's tomorrow. So I think you know, part of what might be, I think that's true. Like people think that artists, let's just use artists or writers, they think that there's something uh super impressive going on there from a day-to-day thing, day-to-day standpoint, the same with cooks, anyone else, and I always say to them, having been trained as a visual artist, uh, you know, I am uh a trained artist, as we say.
+
+[33:55] Um I'm a FA though, it's no lie I do. And uh the truth of the matter is is that the veneration with which we hold uh people in creative positions um means that we don't really understand what those people are doing on a day to day basis. Exactly right. And I try to demystify that because I don't think Bob Dylan is a particular genius. I think he just ships often.
+
+[34:19] Well, I mean, I mean the ship the shipping is is is the thing. So when we look at people, we we tend to think about the stuff that they put out in public, right? Which, you know, for for a musician, hopefully, writer, you know, hopefully, is there better stuff, right? Or what they think is better. Well, or can be.
+
+[34:37] Well, we got the guy with the brisket competition, he's finally bringing his brisket into the public. Right, precisely. And that's a cause of anxiety. Right, right. Private brisket is different than public brisket.
+
+[34:46] Right, right. But my point is is that people ask me this a lot. So I've come up with some bar techniques, some food techniques, things like this. People say, so what's the next? So what's the next uh, you know, what's the next thing?
+
+[34:57] I'm like, well, how should I know? How should I know what the next thing is? Because, but that's I think where this whole idea comes from that there are these kind of, and there are actually, in fact, massive leaps of understanding that happen through practice. It does happen, you know. Um, but the fact that a matter is that you can't sit in a corner and wait for the good stuff to happen.
+
+[35:20] You have to be working on a problem. Right. So right now, uh, I'm working on problems with nostalgia on the next pro you know, product that we're gonna make, which we can, I guess, you know, tangentially talk about. Tell us. Uh, but then I, you know, on stuff for the bar, I'm working on certain um kind of technical flow problems, but I'm not working on any problems right now that are gonna come up with a fantastic new style of drink.
+
+[35:47] I'm not wrong. That's not on the agenda today. Right. I I want to interrupt for one second because you talked about this last week. Uh my wife owns four bakeries, and her chief baking officer invented Fudgy the Whale.
+
+[35:58] Oh my god. And did they know Tom Carvel? Yes, she worked, she was Tom, she was 18 years old, Tom Carvel was her boss. How was Tom Carvel? Tom Carvel was a fine, fine man.
+
+[36:10] Oh, that's so nice to know. When when Kathy went to get a mortgage for her house, he was angry at her that he did she didn't just say, Can you back this? And he called the bank officer without telling her to make sure that the mortgage would go through the whole thing. So, Tom, you as you know, you can't leave the stuff in the tailor machine overnight. And so he he was frugal.
+
+[36:31] He's like, What should we do? We need to make cakes with the leftover ice cream overnight and sell them tomorrow. And he said, So Kathy, and they say necessity mother invention. If Tom had waited for the perfect ice cream cake, there would never have been Fudgy the Whale, because Fudgy the Whale is an imperfect ice cream cake. Whoa.
+
+[36:50] Did it did it start as fudgy and then get turned into Santa? Or did it's like how did it start? So there were a lot of production problems because the tail was converted. And so one of Kathy's innovations was making Fudgy fudgy, because if you make Fudgy vanilla, he doesn't have the structural integrity. And apparently chocolate or the crumbles or something gives to the tail that thing.
+
+[37:12] And then there was Cookie Puss and the whole idea of turning him upside down. Cookie Puss. Right. So Kathy talks if you prompt her a little bit about Fudgy the Whale, but I haven't heard all of the originals. Is on point.
+
+[37:37] And that like to know that I even know someone who came up with the ice cream cake with the crumble in the middle and all that. And I don't think it's just taste memory. I think they're good. I think that they're a good thing. I like them.
+
+[37:54] Do you like them? I certainly have a Prussian relationship with them. I don't think I would go out of my way to have one today. I mean, but they're better than I mean they're better than most anything. Yeah.
+
+[38:04] Yeah. I mean, I mean, no offense, Baskin Robbins, but I mean offense, Baskin Robbins. We can say offense to Basic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what I mean?
+
+[38:11] Like, come on, Carvel. And the memory for anyone who grew up on the East Coast, Wednesdays and Sundays at Carvel. I mean, the guy was Tom Carvel, unbelievable. I'm glad to know he was a good guy. You know, uh, does it bother you when you find out that people that you used to look up to were just vile?
+
+[38:29] Yeah, it does. And one of the things I've tried really hard to do is separate the work from the worker, because otherwise we're just gonna have to throw out so many things that mattered to us. Well, and I think going forward that's gonna become more and more of a kind of a problem. I think there's you know, once people have been dead for a while, they kind of no one goes and dredges up their stuff, or you just don't care anymore. I mean, people people aren't like, well, I'm not gonna listen to Wagner.
+
+[38:53] Right. You're like, well, you you are kinda. You know what I mean? It's like uh, you know, but uh it's tough to say. I mean, you know, I remember when I used to really idolize Chuck Yeager, who's uh you know, a famous uh test pilot.
+
+[39:10] Right. And then, you know, when I was a kid, when I still idolized him, I found out that, you know, he was one of the people who uh was and this may be wrong, but this is what I was told, and it affected the way I viewed it, was one of the guys who prevented uh African American astronauts from having a lot of people. I was just gonna mention that new book coming out in four weeks. It's so good about the uh the m Apollo mission on the 50th anniversary, and Chuck Yeager's got three pages in it. And does it verify it?
+
+[39:37] It totally verifies and so like But mostly he was doing it because he got told to do it and he didn't like being told what to do. Oh no. I mean, I met him when I was a kid. I used to go to the experimental aircraft association meeting at Oshkosh to fly in. Cool.
+
+[39:50] And uh, you know, I had a copy of his, you know, his book with him on the front with the Bell X One, which was the first plane to break the sound barrier, had him sign it, I was like, ah, Chuck Yeager. And then like later that yeah, he's a vicious racist. I was like, Yeah, I think he was just a vicious uh anti-disciplinarian. Uh the uh the hero of the book is Arthur C. Clarke, which I didn't know.
+
+[40:11] The uh the science fiction guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. I worked with him a long time ago. But he. So this guy, he's a troll, not Arthur She Clark, this other guy whose name I can't remember.
+
+[40:22] His proposal, right around the time of Sputnik, was that the US should launch nuclear whip weapons at the moon and make a giant crater that could be seen from the Earth as their example of just being able to piss on whatever they wanted and then be done. And it was Arthur C. Clark who persuaded the United States not to do that. Hey, can we still do that? Can we can we go back and revisit this idea?
+
+[40:47] Like it's so funny. That's so, yeah, that's so like like late 50s, early 60s thinking, right? Yeah, hardcore. That's like back when the Soviets were trying to reverse the paths of rivers with nuclear weapons. Only they actually tried it.
+
+[41:00] I mean, were they ever successful doing that? I have no idea. Uh all right, all right. So back to back to uh see if we have any issues initiated to cover food issues. Yeah, right.
+
+[41:09] Let's do some. Nate Simon writes in, you might have something to say about this, because this is part safety, part perception. Nate Simon from from uh Sacktown from Sacramento. What are your thoughts on Sacramento, Nastasia? You ever go there?
+
+[41:20] No. You've never been to the capital of the state you grew up in? No. I've at least been to Albany. I know.
+
+[41:25] You're very patriotic. What's wrong with being patriotic? Nothing, that's your thing. It's not my thing. Are you saying on air that you hate your country?
+
+[41:34] No, I'm just not patriotic. What does that even mean? I'm not outward. I'm just not as patriotic as you. But uh like to claim this, I don't understand what it is.
+
+[41:46] He's wearing red, white, and blue. So you should cut her a little slack. But like, I just don't understand. It's like it's like going out of your way. It's like when you say no offense, you're like, yo, I'm just not patriotic.
+
+[41:56] That means you there's some chip there. There's something I don't understand. Yeah, I just don't. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[42:03] Are you patriotic? I think that there are trappings of patriotism that are often used in ways that aren't associated with what you're talking about. Why can't we have him here every day? Because he actually makes a lot of money for what he does. Alright.
+
+[42:20] Hey guys, as I'm sure you'll agree, morbid fear of undercooking poultry often results in horrendously overcooked poultry. Truly said, Nate. According to everything I've read, intact whole muscle cuts are assumed to be internally sterile. Contamination with evil bugs like salmonella and camphylobacter result from surface contamination. And unless the meat is punctured, the inside is still sterile.
+
+[42:42] Well, I'm gonna stop right there before we even go even further. Talk to any food safety expert, and they're like, how do you know it wasn't punctured? You know what I mean? And plus there's lots of like nooks and crannies on a piece of chicken meat that there aren't necessarily in a whole, you know, in a in a steak. There are a lot of like, you know, muscle separations, even on a chicken breast, lots of little places things can hide.
+
+[43:03] Uh and plus, unlike a steak, so when you're fabricating a steak, let's say you take a uh a rib apart and then you slice the rib, there's a lot less knife poking towards that piece of meat than there would be in, let's say, ripping the breast off of a chicken. Okay? And also, uh the every part of a chicken that you can touch is closer to the guts and to the processing uh area of the slaughter than almost any part of the beef that you're gonna eat. So let's just start makes sense from there. Um this is why it is considered acceptable to serve a rare steak, for example.
+
+[43:37] If this is the case, why are we so hysterically obsessed with cooking poultry until the internal temperature is in the pasteurization range? The problem, Nate, isn't that we're obsessed with cooking it to the pasteurization range, it's that we're obsessed with cooking it well above the pasteurization range. We're we're obsessed with cooking it to a temperature where everything dies within like 10 to 15 seconds. And at those temperatures, at the 10 to 15 second death range temperature, you're looking at horrendously overcooked. It's 100% true that even in uh you can cook something until it's pasteurized and still have it look to most people's eyes viciously undercooked.
+
+[44:09] So there's there is a there is a wide gulf between perception of safety and actual safety, which is I think the real problem that we need to also, you know, uh there's a risk to eating uh, you know, anything undercooked, and I, as a semi-relatively healthy, you know, not yet hopefully immunocompromised individual, I'm willing to take this risk uh on the regular. So there's also uh that. Okay. This is the case. Why are we so obsessed with cooking poultry until the internal temperatures in the pasteurization range?
+
+[44:37] Even more maddeningly, maddeningly, why do we freak out about undercooked chicken, but rare duck or squab is considered not only acceptable but desirable? Because we're hypocrites mentally, not hypocrites. We okay, look. That's a good part. I would I didn't expect that part coming up.
+
+[44:54] That was a good ending to that question. Yeah, well, the the thing is this is that people have an internal revulsion to, because of the way they're brought up, to looking at undercooked chicken or poultry, and for some people also pork. So it's just and they're not gonna overcome that. So, like, it's just not logic. Like uh But why duck different?
+
+[45:23] I mean, what with Passover around the corner? Why is this poultry different than any other poultry? Well, I think because we're raised to even in like duck cultures, are there duck cultures? I mean France and China. So are they a version?
+
+[45:35] Do they have the aversion? I think the French overcooked their duck. Okay. Well, now we've come up with something then. Duck works because it's a foreign feeling poultry.
+
+[45:44] Right. It's allowed to have its own. It's allowed to have its own temperature. Yeah. Right.
+
+[45:44] Good insight. Whereas chicken and and turkey, they can't, but you're not gonna overcome somebody's. Also, duck has a different fundamental texture. Duck is more steak like duck breast. Let's just see what talk about what we're talking about.
+
+[46:03] Uh because like uh rare duck leg is like, oh my god, what I have to, I have to, you know, I'm not gonna spend all night at dinner. How am I gonna how much am I gonna chew? You know what I mean? But like a like a like a medium rare duck breast has a stakier texture, I would say, than uh not flavor, stakier texture than a chicken breast. I think this is gr fascinating stuff, and you could do an entire show about fear of turkey because of Thanksgiving.
+
+[46:29] Because it comes with so much overhead of uh your worthiness as a member of the family, and I think that spreads into food safety. Well, because you're worried about poisoning your family, but no, because you're worried about seeming incompetent, seeming lesser because you don't love to cook, and so we add all these side dishes that we would don't eat the rest of the year, not because they're good, but because they're part of the the trope of this is what it means to love your family. Right. Is that you have this thing and then what it means to be a TV watcher because it has to look like a butter ball because they advertise that for 40 years, and and all of that is the the elements of culture that have nothing to do with the facts of will this food make you sick? Right.
+
+[47:10] And uh uh to piggyback on that, I think that equating love with the act of cooking is can be extremely toxic. I think for those of us that like to cook, right? For those of us that like to cook, it is a good way to express our desire to do things for others by cooking. Right. For those of us that don't like to cook, it should not be made to seem like you must cook in order to show your your love for others.
+
+[47:40] I mean this is brilliant. And I think this is a huge problem. And I think I know people that are are guilty. Ah, we ordered out again. Are we it's like, look, you're incredibly talented at other things.
+
+[47:50] Right. You know, uh, you know, so my wife is like actually good at cooking, she doesn't enjoy it, but she sometimes she feels very guilty, and I'm like, you're like an incredibly successful architect. Why should you have to want to cook? Like, why is this have anything to do with your you know, ability to, you know, be you know, uh to be a loving parent. You know, it's it's uh, you know, people don't necessarily have other people do their laundry for them, but if you could, you would, and you wouldn't say, Oh, I don't love my family because somebody else is washing their clothes.
+
+[48:22] You know what I mean? Like so, family dinner is important, and my son works on family dinner, it's just what his nonprofit does. Not because of the cooking, but because of the sitting at the table together. It's breaking bread. And we associate the two with each other when they don't have to be associated with each other.
+
+[48:38] You know, we uh we had family dinner every Sunday for two decades. Like the past, like as like a lot of members of the family who live in New York have had their own kids, it's become less thing. But I think it's important to have a you know at least a a standing invite like once a week to get the I love a family dinner. Yeah, yeah. I mean, my my youngest when we when the kids were growing up, we would cook dinner together every night for the four, but Mo and I would spend hours doing it because the actual act of cooking, not the part of I'm going to feed you, but the part of we're standing next to each other, that's just priceless.
+
+[49:17] And so it's really interesting that when we're talking about can I take the temperature of chicken down one degree, that's sort of turning it into a sport. But it's coming not from this basis of sport and competition. It's coming from this basis of this is how we define ourselves as humans. We're not all drinking soylent all day long, automatons waiting to be replaced by AI. I hope none of us.
+
+[49:38] Yeah, exactly. Although what do you think? You think we're gonna get replaced by AI? I think that the number of people who lost their jobs to steam engines, steam shovels, who were ditch diggers was very large. And most of them in the long run were relieved.
+
+[49:54] And I think that computers are gonna keep replacing the part of our job we don't want to do, if we can find the guts to be willing to do the other parts of the job that put us on the spot. Right. So uh when I first started working at the French culinary years ago, uh it was run by a, you know, a French chef named uh Alain Sayac, who's still around, he's a he's a cool dude. And because I was a tech guy, he s he always said that he always said to me that uh you know, in his mind, my goal was to go Jetsons and to have you know all the food be in forms of you know pills or yeah, you know, and then he would point to people like Hervé Tees, who uh, you know, had his kind of mechanistic, we're just gonna like uh we're gonna do, you know, the same way that they come up with antibiotics, we're just gonna make a billion sauces and then you know, and he was like, This is what you think cooking is gonna become. It's like, well, I mean, I hope not.
+
+[50:48] I mean, unless it tastes better than what unless it tastes better than what a you know, a thinking, caring person can do, then I hope not. But you know, if it can do a better job, then okay. You know what I mean? It's like and a lot of those guys freaked out at Sous-Vide at the beginning because it was so precise you couldn't do anything while it was underway. Right.
+
+[51:07] It was a different sense of a lot of that was just macho garbage. Right. You know, like I can't like yell at it or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.
+
+[51:15] Uh well, it's like, you know, look, I'm not talking to too much out of turn here, but uh, you know, uh famous three Michelin star David Kinch, uh, you know, uh now Michelin. So remember, like you said, anyway, so he uh, you know, he once I was talking to me, and he was an early adopter of kind of low temperature in Sous vide, as was Keller. And there was a period of time, oh, I don't know, seven, eight years ago, when um those kind of chefs really started pulling back from Sous vide and low temperature. Interestingly, I don't really know Thomas Keller. I've you know met him a couple times, and he wouldn't remember me if I kicked him in the face, but uh, you know, when you even I think his book came about uh on low on Sous vide low temperature, came out right around the time he was pulling back on using this stuff uh personally in the kitchens.
+
+[52:02] And so um I said to Kinch, I was like, What do you wh why are you he had just gotten a new Bonet, he was shooting for three stars, you know, he was chasing the star at the time. And I was like, why you know why why are you pulling back on Sous vide? It's a great, it's a great technique. And he's like, well, uh, you know, I find I can get a better result by and then he starts telling me like kind of super old school technique. He's so he's got this giant bonet, which is maintaining its, I think it was Bonet, I don't think he was um uh I think he was Bonnet.
+
+[52:33] Anyway, so in out, in and out, in and out, in and out, not multi-nee. I think he was Bonet. He's pulling it in and out, in and out, in and out to get it the texture right. So he's he's basically trying to do low low temp cooking, like high high input to make the skin or the outside the right texture, low input to not overcook the inside manually. And I was like, why?
+
+[52:56] And you know, like, why when I can solve for those two problems separately? Like, so my whole life, the part of my life that's teaching people about low temperature, and Kenji doesn't agree with this, uh, and he's wrong. It's like it's like you can separate the problems of you can separate, there are two problems getting the texture of the outside right and getting the temperature of the inside right. And yes, by being some sort of like ninja Jedi, you can get them to come together using old techniques, uh, you know, and you can get them to come together at the same time and perform this minor miracle. But unless you do it all the time, the odds of failure are much higher, and your odds of getting it right right out of the bat are much higher than just controlling these two problems separately.
+
+[53:42] You know what I mean? But for Kinch, like, unless he was riding that line of I am I'm doing it this way, I'm putting all the input in all the time, right? It wasn't good for him anymore. You know what I mean? At least that's the impression I got from him.
+
+[53:55] And I was like, man, I was like, because I have a theory, you will hate this, I'm sure, Seth, where, and the you know, the more I see it in myself and other people, we have a there we have a limit. Like we all have different amounts that we give a crap in general, right? But even the ones of us that give the most crap, eventually we bend and break, eventually we compromise, eventually we give up on something, right? Yeah, and I think we don't have an infinite amount of that inside of us. And so if you waste conservation of crap giving.
+
+[54:25] Right. Yeah. So if I can, if I can separate these two problems of the texture on the inside and the texture on the outside, and not worry about that being that's so much more energy to focus on some other problem that's messed up. The problem is when we just routinize it and stop thinking. And so many people have been driven by our convenience economy to just swipe, swipe, swipe.
+
+[54:44] It doesn't matter, nothing matters. Here you're saying, you still need to give a crap, but let's uh uh conserve it appropriately. Right. Yeah, I agree with that. And then I said to him, So you don't use uh you don't use low temp souvite at all anymore?
+
+[54:56] He's like, no, I'm like, squab. He's like, okay, okay, squab. I was like, I knew it. Let me talk about espresso machines for a second. So uh I have a vintage, like late 80s, early 90s, Las and Marco 85M uh one group machine in my house, right?
+
+[55:14] I got the Olympia Cremini old school. Oh I'm giving a few giving a fist pump. It's very strong move. Uh best cup of coffee I've ever had, which is gonna sound crazy, espresso shot I've ever had. I've said this before, was from a lever pull, an old Vitor uh Vittorio Arduini uh Arduini le lever pull at a trade show.
+
+[55:36] There you go. And the guy comes up to me and he's like, Would you like a shot? And I was a lever machine. I was like, Yeah, sure. And he pulls the shot, and I was like, oh my god.
+
+[55:45] You know what I mean? Is ever happening? Like, what are you doing in a trade show? You know what I mean? Like, you should be so can we do a pitch here for roasting your own beans?
+
+[55:53] Because anyone who cares about coffee needs to roast their own. All right, let me let me do this. I want you to talk about this, and then let's go back to beans. So um, and this is getting worse and worse. So I also had a problem with my brev Brevel, the Brevel Corporation gave me one of their Oracle super auto things, and I put it in a place where I wasn't gonna be all the time so that we you know someone else could just walk in, push a button, get the coffee, right?
+
+[56:14] Grind it. So on my Los An Marco, one of the solenoids went bad in a spectacular way last week. And the filling solenoid, so the the thing filled up to the brim, then tried to pressurize itself, over pressured, and started spraying boiling water everywhere, all over everything. And I was like, oh my god, oh my god. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:36] So I opened the sucker up and I diagnose it, but then I look at the solenoid part of it. Now bear in mind, an old espresso machine is a lot like an old car. You can open it up, look at the pipes, and see what's going on. And so I was able to figure out what was wrong like fairly quickly. It was a solenoid, but then there's no replacements.
+
+[56:55] So even in something old, right? That solenoid, if I would have had to buy the whole solenoid from Italy, right, which would have been like a lot, or buy an American replacement and figure out how to clutch the plumbing together. And then that solenoid's like a hundred bucks. I ripped the solenoid apart because thankfully it's all screwed together, it's not you know molded in. And the entire failure of the machine was due to a non-replaceable rubber disc that was uh sealing up the pilot, uh the pilot orifice on the on the on the thing.
+
+[57:24] It was not really pilot, but you know what I mean. Yeah, and uh I was like, and it was gone, it was eroded. And so I was like, this my entire life is predicated on being able to have two or three cups of espresso in the morning. And my entire espresso game is predicated on this like you know, machine that's plumbed into my wall working. It in turn is predicated on this solenoid.
+
+[57:47] Four cent piece of rubber. Yeah, and a four center piece of rubber, non-replaceable, by the way, has failed. Luckily, you know, uh my partner Don has a laser cutter at work, so I went in, ripped the thing out, laser cut a you know a piece of rubber, put it in, the machine was up and running the next day. And I was like, whoo. But I had a similar problem on my on my Oracle where the three-way, so for those of you that make uh espresso, there's a three-way valve on the group that that either applies pressure from the pump to the group head to make espresso and then depressurizes it to atmosphere to unpro so that when you open up your group head, you don't poof, you know.
+
+[58:21] I have that problem. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, this one failed in the open, so that it never pressurized the group head, it was always going into drain mode. You cannot get into that oracle to save your life because modern design is not designed to be replaceable, it's designed to be as compact as humanly possible, and and nothing, almost nothing is easily gettable, replaceable, or standard, which means that a you know, two thousand dollar machine can turn into a piece of garbage because literally inside of there, I know there is a two cent piece of rubber that has failed. Yep.
+
+[58:57] And it's pathetic, and I understand the advantages of it, but then also like are we ever gonna get back to creating things that are repairable? Well, companies want to make something that's repairable, people don't want to buy it. And that's the problem. Because it costs more, it is more difficult to acquire in the sense that it costs more and is bigger and clunkier, and because most of the people who are buying this stuff don't use it the way they used a 1948 Chevy pickup truck. They're using it for three years and then moving on, where they're putting it in their fancy kitchen and never even turning it on.
+
+[59:34] So they're the consumer is voting over and over again in favor of convenience, not in favor of longevity and control. And even when people buy, if you go to Maker Fair, right? The Maker Fair store, which should be filled with tools like we're talking about, is filled with kits. Because kids are taught by their parents to follow the instructions, make the kit. And that's what saved Lego.
+
+[59:59] Lego was going bankrupt selling normal Lego. And only when they invented kits with instructions did they save the company. So you're saying I hate this. You hate the kidification of Yeah. Because who's going to invent the next thing?
+
+[1:00:14] We need more engineers. Yeah. I love it. Well, you know I like engineers. All right, so let's talk about roasting beans before they kick us off the air.
+
+[1:00:20] Okay, so real quick, uh, Marco Armit, the guy who invented Tumblr, comes over to my house because my slayer is just not making good coffee, and he lives down the street and he loves coffee. He says, I can't help you. I said, Why can't you help me? He says, Because you don't roast your own beans. Once you roast your own beans, we can talk about this.
+
+[1:00:34] So I went to Sweet Maria's, which is a website, and you can buy a Korean coffee roaster. It looks like a tennis ball can. It's 350 bucks, pays for itself after 20 pounds of beans. Which one, which one uh which one of the roasters is that? I have so I stopped ordering from them even though I thought their green coffee was better than the other suppliers because they had a hack problem once.
+
+[1:00:54] And a boy? Yeah, like a bunch of credit card numbers got stolen. They probably fixed it. They probably fixed it. They're good people.
+
+[1:01:01] They are good people. All right, so so yeah, so and then instead of like venting, he the way Marco does it, he's only roasts on nice days, he brings it outside to roast. I pumped a hole in the laundry room window. There you go. Right?
+
+[1:01:14] And and ran a um a dryer vent vent out. I haven't burned my house down yet. And it it just it's better. Does this roaster have a uh catalyzer on the outside? I don't know what a catalyzer is.
+
+[1:01:25] So check it. So uh so I used to do are you so is this is one you're doing mimicking drum or is it mimicking air? Is it only rose to like a pound every two weeks so it's not like I'm right but you're a drum guy. Apparently. Right.
+
+[1:01:39] So I mean like the the big thing you have to decide in your life is are you an air person or a drum person, right? So Michael Sivitz, which who was uh the early one of the he wrote one of the more important like technical coffee books of the was it in the 70s I guess. Maybe we'll even say the most important. Yeah yeah yeah given that it was 50 years 40 years. Yeah AVI press right uh probably the most single most important book after Euchar's all about coffee in you know the early 1900s.
+
+[1:02:07] Anyway so uh he came up with this idea I think he wrote the book. Anyway civets roasting so it is he was using fluidized bed roasting right and then a bunch of home people were like well an air popcorn popper is pretty much like a fluidized bed roaster. And so there was all those early air popcorn people but those produce a very different roast profile than the drum. So I started roasting and there's a what's the name of the guy's his name is David last name I think is David or first name is David wrote the early book on home roasting from the late 80s early 90s if you know who I'm talking about. Don't know and his point is don't worry about it just start roasting.
+
+[1:02:48] Right. He's like don't worry you're not gonna he's like you're not gonna be as good as the best roaster don't worry about it. Just start roasting you know what I mean and so I thankfully read his book relatively early on and so I I consequently know how to worry, but uh, you know, I don't necessarily worry because I'm not trying to necessarily I'm not trying to always beat the best person on earth. You know what I mean? Uh so anyway, so I started as an air guy, but I would perpetually burn them out.
+
+[1:03:15] Uh even I I bought a couple of the purpose-made uh early um coffee roaster that were based on popcorn roaster technology, and I fry them like I would roast all the time. I've had really good luck, two and a half years. Really? And I but is this air or it's drunk. Well, the the the tennis ball can rotate it like asymmetrically.
+
+[1:03:32] Oh, yeah, I don't have this one. So it's got a little computer chip, you tell it how long and what temperature, and it just does its thing in 34 minutes later, it's done. So I built a drum, I built a mini drum roaster that is similar to the burn sample roaster, uh-huh, which I love and it lets me look at it. But the problem is obviously, and it's a long way to get to it. The problem, people is the smoke.
+
+[1:03:53] The smoke is intense. So if you have it doesn't smell like good coffee, it just smells like coffee coffee. Yeah, and also it's by the way, did I talk about this last week? Air quality? I wasn't gonna see.
+
+[1:04:05] Oh, anyway, so like we talked about a lot last week. It was a good show. Oh, thanks. Except we missed nostasi. Except, yeah, well, you know.
+
+[1:04:11] Uh so uh this is not like a friendly smoke. This is a full of crap, sticky smoke. Carcinogenic, no? I mean, unclear. I don't think anyone's done this study because there's not enough coffee workers.
+
+[1:04:28] Uh but here's an interesting fact. The next time you roast uh in a place where you where so my roaster has a hole three inches across, yeah, and that's where all the smoke comes out of. If you hold an open torch right at the opening, it burns all the smoke. And professional roasters have like almost like an afterburner, a catalyzer that will come fully combust the smoke and it it goes clear and then it doesn't ruin everything. So you can really mitigate, and I think there might be a like one of the higher end home roasters that can do this, they can mitigate the smoke that's being uh made.
+
+[1:05:07] Makes sense. Yeah. The other thing, how does this thing cool? Does it have a cooling tray? Yeah, then no, no, then it just keeps going after the cycle is done until it's at room temperature.
+
+[1:05:15] So it just keeps spinning until it's cooled. Right. And I sit there and I toss it up and like toss it back and forth, and this chaff gets a lot of cool. Yeah. No, at this point it's worth you just going to a roaster and buying some coffee.
+
+[1:05:33] Well, no, I mean, ah here's a nice thing. Let's say, let's say, people that you're in a place and you know you're not gonna be there. Uh you only gonna be there, let's say you have like a place you're only gonna be a couple times a month. Right? It's hard to necessarily keep good coffee there.
+
+[1:05:49] Good point. You can keep good green beans, they last a lot longer. You show up. The best part is just being able to say to people, want some coffee? I roasted the beans.
+
+[1:05:58] That's what it's all about for me. Here's another thing. People say you have to wait after you roast the beans. You know what? You don't.
+
+[1:06:04] Really? It's just different. Okay, because I've been waiting I've been waiting. It you can. Look, the problem is is that uh, you know, it it's evolving more CO2.
+
+[1:06:13] It's it's evol it's evolving CO2 more rapidly right after you roast. I mean, that's the main problem. I mean, you have to wait for it to be cool, cold. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[1:06:20] But um like I try to have a five day cycle. Yeah, but in other words, like it it's not the same. This is what I'm saying. It's not the same, but it's not like you're gonna die of poisoning by having the coffee right after you roast it. It's just different.
+
+[1:06:33] Right. No, and we keep changing the definition of what good coffee is supposed to be. I mean, like before Howard Schultz showed up, people said good coffee was something different, and then after people got over the Howard Schultz thing, people said good coffee was something after that. What do you do? I know someone who was it that was talking to me that was that he felt really someone who was he's he was a cool person, I forget who it was.
+
+[1:06:53] He was like, am I a bad person because I don't like like these kind of like high acid fruity coffees? And I was like, no, you're not a bad person. Just I was like, just tell people what you want. It's like people who produce those coffees can produce. I mean if you like milk chocolate, you're a bad person.
+
+[1:07:11] But what about these new, what about the new good milk chocolates? You had these? What were they used nuts instead of milk? No, no, no, where it's just like they're like it's like low sugar, high cocoa solids. There's like it's a whole fancy, the fancy milk chocolate.
+
+[1:07:24] That might be possible. But I'm I'm just saying I'm giving people less of a less slack when it comes to chocolate because there is an access there. But with coffee, you can go into different quadrants and be very happy. Yeah, I like uh I like a less whiny. I said I said if you want to sound like it's like one second, it's not too whiny.
+
+[1:07:41] Yeah, you know, you know, I don't not a lot of like uh not a lot of berry and red fruit in it. And then they'll be like, oh. Yeah, you can even ask for it to be chocolatey. Yeah, yeah, they'll give you, and then they'll give you what you want. Exactly.
+
+[1:07:52] Right? Chad has a question that I think is on this topic. I want to hear about the slayer. Worth it? Go for it.
+
+[1:07:58] Yeah, I don't think the slayer is worth it. I loved looking at it, and I loved how much technology was in it. I felt like it uh totally disconnected me from the act of actually that's why I went straight to the manual lever after that. And I was able to sell the slayer for a fine price, so I didn't feel guilty about it. And it's beautiful and brilliantly engineered, but I felt like I had no idea what was going on.
+
+[1:08:23] And your your lever is your lever is commercial style engaged spring, not levered direct on piston, right? I uh pull it down and the coffee comes down out when while I'm pulling it down. So it's as direct as can be. So it's like a lapavoni. It but without all the eagles and stuff.
+
+[1:08:40] Right, right. But in other words, that so like like uh I used to have um I still have if anyone wants it, I'm gonna sell it soon because I have no space for it. But I have a microchimbole, which is the smallest machine that uh works on the spring lever principle. So like most of like the V Vittorio Arduino, you pull down the coffee appears as you release because you're engaging a spring. Right.
+
+[1:09:06] And what I love about those machines is that uh, you know, pressure profiling is all the rage over the past five years, but the pressure profiling, anyone that really cares about pressure profiling is building that pressure profile on the fact that lever pull machines make, I'm sorry to say this, not as much crema, but a better tasting cup of coffee, like espresso, to my taste for what I want. I don't really care about the crema that much. I know some people get rid of the crema, like like uh anyway, not gonna get into it. But anyway, the point is is that the pressure slowly getting less over the course of the shot actually has an effect on the extraction that I happen to like, right? So in the in the early in the late 90s, early 2000s, everyone was all about oh, static pressure.
+
+[1:09:49] Pressure has to be right 100% static, right? And so they're like if you don't have a procon pump in your machine, which is uh you know a vein pump that can provide a relatively static pressure, assuming your inlet pressure is good and that and its pressure override is good, it will provide a relatively static pressure. You can look at your needle and it's pretty rock solid. Uh especially if it and they all this good systems have damping in them, so the system is really rock solid. And they used to say, well, you're never gonna get a as good a cup of coffee with what they call a euchre pump, which is a reciprocating brrrrrrrrrrr.
+
+[1:10:17] So if you have a machine that goes brrrr like that, is never gonna provide, they don't have the the system doesn't have the damping to provide an even enough pressure with those. I don't think that's necessarily true, but anyway, everyone's focused on that. And then the pressure profilers realize wait, these lever pull machines make this awesome shot, and it's you know, it's because it's reduction in pressure, and then hence. And the slayer lets you do anything. You can set the curve any way you want.
+
+[1:10:41] And if you're the kind of person that wants to make 30 cups and and not lose your sense of taste along the way, you can tweak it. For me, it was too much data. And I just like feeling the coffee pushing back against me as I'm pulling the thing, and feeling like I'm gaining skill. That's why I do it. But also, that is valid.
+
+[1:10:59] Like, in other words, even if the coffee is not like, even if like in a blind taste, that you would prefer the coffee out of the other machine, the enjoyment of making it the way you want to make it, right is a valid enjoyment. Because we're not double blind, right? Exactly. You're not, right? You should do what increases your overall enjoyment.
+
+[1:11:20] Bingo. Anyway, it's been a pleasure having you on, Seth. Uh please come on again. So we're Nastasi, but on the way out, what is this? I have to open it.
+
+[1:11:29] This is a because I've written so many blog posts, uh, twice we've made these collectible editions. So it's an 800-page 17-pound book of the last few years of my blog. Almost no one has one, but I wanted Nastasia to have one. So it's not on topics in relativistic physics? No, we put it in a mailing box to confuse people.
+
+[1:11:48] Yeah, it was like and part of it's written in Polish, and part of it's Einstein on the spine. And I got this note from this guy, and here, here's a knife. I got this note from a guy, and he says, uh, I received a package from you and I did not order it. And I write back saying, That's the $195 book you bought. He said, No, it's not.
+
+[1:12:08] The book you sent me is in Polish. And I was like, did you open it? This is all by email, so it's one a day. Oh my god. And finally he's he gets back to say, Oh, thanks.
+
+[1:12:18] Here, you need more knives. You're like, oh, you can't read Polish? I don't want to ruin that. Here's cut the tape. Anyway, pleasure.
+
+[1:12:27] Please uh, you know, when you have time, please come on again. I'm sure that's super fun. I'm sure people will enjoy actually having things they can do. You have contributed so much to my family and our and our delight in uh in listening to you guys. And Nastashi just shredded the box.
+
+[1:12:40] So anyway, this has been Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com slash heritage.
+
+[1:13:21] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:13:40] You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash heritage Radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, and more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:14:05] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] A fresh financial you is closer than you think. With MyFICO, you can get the right score for your credit goal, including your FICO scores used for mortgages, auto loans, and credit cards. My FICO provides your FICO score straight from the people that created it. And you can compare your FICO scores and credit reports from all free bureaus. Experience, TransUn, and Equifax side by side.
+
+[0:19] Understanding your credit has never been easier. So use MyFICO to get a clearer picture of your credit in 2026. Visit MyFICO.com or download the MyFICO app to get started today. This episode is brought to you by Paris Gourmet, delivering specialty foods and ingredients right to your restaurant, bakery, and bar. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com.
+
+[0:42] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. This year we're celebrating 10 years of food radio. For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more. It's been 10 years, and we're just getting started.
+
+[1:08] Find us on Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know. From a burden of speech are in Bushwick Brooklyn! Not with this Dossier the Hammer Lopez, who was here but left because she thought I was gonna be even later.
+
+[1:35] Suck it! Also joined in the studio with Jack Shram. What were you? The nail? The nail.
+
+[1:41] Jack the Nail Shram, head bartender of existing conditions. We are waiting on, and this is because the airplane was late, not because he himself was late. Uh James Schroeder from Chicago has a new book out on uh Mezcal, so we're gonna talk to him about all his MezCal stuff. Uh, we have cats in the network here. How are you doing?
+
+[1:57] Good, thanks. Yeah? We got Matt in the booth. Hello, hello. So when Nastasia gets back, and when James finally shows up, we're gonna have a full, full house.
+
+[2:05] In fact, we will have more humans than microphones. Um you have a caller that we could do. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, uh just had a quick question for you. Um I wanted your thoughts on what makes a good restaurant chef and what makes a good home cook.
+
+[2:19] Oh, yeah, that's good. They're two, they're two very very different things. This is a good question. Yeah. Uh very, very different things.
+
+[2:25] So a good restaurant chef, first of all, there are people who are great chefs. And great cooks. There, brother. They're not great chefs. There are people who are great chefs who aren't great cooks anymore.
+
+[2:36] Most of them at one time had some chops, right? You have to to get to that level. Right. But being a good chef, like nowadays, it also means being a poisonality, right? But that didn't used to be what it was.
+
+[2:48] It used to be and still is, you have the ability to run a kitchen that makes money, right? So you have to be able to uh choose dishes uh that satisfy whatever market it is you're aiming at. Most of us think of either high-end chefs or people doing funky things, but like you choose something, right, that you want to do, you hit that market, you can get your food costs down, and you can like crank out a consistent product day after day, and you can convince your staff to show up, not call out and like in general care about the food that they're making. And you are a great, you are a great chef. That is what a great chef is.
+
+[3:27] Yeah, step one, be a good leader. Yeah, you have to be a good leader. Now, it used to be, uh, I mean, there's some various, you know, kind of, you know, do you lead through fear? Do you lead through love? In fact, like a lot of it used to be very, and and I again, this is some not somewhat, this is toxic, but it used to just be uh very kind of like animal pheromone-based.
+
+[3:50] So like a chef would have to come in like an alpha ape, like and then like, you know, like walk up to like uh a lion cook station and just outperform them. What's up? And just have to outperform them, and that's how you'd prove you were a good chef. I don't think that works anymore. What the hell?
+
+[4:07] We got also Jackie Molecules in the studio. A reunion! Oh my god, Jackie Molecules. Uh whereas a home cook really uh, you know, you can spend any amount of money you want. Uh you just have to make food that's delicious.
+
+[4:22] And part of being a home cook also depends on who you are. There are home cooks that like people. Uh and well, I mean, every every every cook likes people enough to cook them food without poisoning them, right? But I mean, what I mean is is that like I'm one of those home cooks that I like being in the kitchen maybe rather than being seated with everybody. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:39] Just because it means that I don't really I can just cook. You know what I mean? And that's how some people express social uh social behavior. Yeah, you come and go from the social engagement as you please because you gotta be watching the food. That's why it's important.
+
+[4:52] That's why Jack, Jack, would you rather be behind the bar or on the floor? I would prefer to be behind the bar with just enough social interaction. There you go. Uh so anywho, uh, you know, I think like they're very they're very, very different problems. And I think a lot of people who are excellent home cooks, right?
+
+[5:11] You know, first of all, they just would not enjoy busting down that like 12th box of chicken for the day. You know what I mean? They just wouldn't enjoy it. Like, yeah, they don't get into that weird, like, you know, like you're you're totally zoned out, but also very zoned in, just the catharsis of just the same action over and over again. Yeah, here let me feel good.
+
+[5:29] Let me get let me give you a hint uh on the difference. First of all, most people who are professional chefs don't uh they don't cook that much at home because they're freaking sick of it by the time they get home. But uh invite a chef over to your house, right? And then say something, like just do something fun like this. Just have a bunch of carrots in your fridge.
+
+[5:51] Have a bunch of extra carrots in your fridge, and then tell the chef, the chef's going to like depends on the chefs. Some chefs are like, I ain't doing I ain't doing squat. I'm just gonna sit and drink wine. Crap on you. And like, you know what I mean?
+
+[6:05] Or some some will be like, can I help? You know what I mean? And when they and when they say, can I help, right? What you want to do is say this to them. Um yeah, you could uh you could peel and and uh cut up some car how you want the carrots.
+
+[6:19] Uh I don't know, like diced. And then when you you're gonna you're gonna they're gonna walk away, and then if you look back at them and every carrot in your fridge has been converted into a dice, you're dealing with a chef. Because they're just gonna be like, the amount you need is the amount you got, and we're gonna do this, we're gonna use carrots all week, so I'm dicing them! You know what I mean? And they dice all the carrots.
+
+[6:39] You know what I'm saying? Stas, you know what I'm talking about. This is like you and the long duck in or the the turduccin. What do you mean? At the holiday party, when we we cook the turduccin and we and you said, I'm not touching that thing, and then like 30 minutes later you were over there slicing it up.
+
+[6:55] It's because no one stepped up. I hate carving in public because I just don't like doing it. You know why? Everybody has something to say about the way something is carved. Everybody has something to say about the way something is carved.
+
+[7:07] So I just don't, I don't get near it. And the wrongest voices are the loudest. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Generally, always. Most of the time, most of the time, if you have something to say, you should not.
+
+[7:17] Yeah. Like in general, I think in life. Uh so I'm gonna save this. By the way, Nastasia, Nastasia and I, Nastassian now is a Connecticut home, she has not a homeowner, but a home person. Oh, okay.
+
+[7:30] Well, what is that? Well, Nastasia is now has achieved one of her life goals, which is to be able to at will go to a place on the water. Oh, that's great. Would you say it's accurate? Yes.
+
+[7:42] That's accurate. Whereas uh I'm losing my brain space. Someone made an offer on our Connecticut place, which means I have a lot of fireworks to light off real stuff. Yeah, when are we going up there? The weather's perfect.
+
+[7:52] I don't know. Like, I gotta figure it out. There's gotta be some place when I mean I've promised Bobby, our beverage manager, beverage director, uh, that he could go up. So we just need to figure it out a time. Uh and in similar stories, where I have a place in Connecticut is called Chester, and there's a very good restaurant in Chester called Grano Arso, and uh Joel and uh Lonnie, his wife, uh, were in listeners of the show, and you should go to that restaurant.
+
+[8:13] In fact, on the way over here, I started mentally composing a jingle to it. And let me see, let me see if yeah, let me see. Uh I'm gonna put on my jingle, my jingle face. I don't remember what the tune was though. I'll just make it up.
+
+[8:27] Just shout. If through Chester, you should junt, go to Grano Arso's rest. That's very pithy. That's kind of like yeah, wow. It's real quick.
+
+[8:39] It's a good nice start. Wait, how does it go again? Slow down. Yeah, I wasn't recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:47] No. Now what do you mean? If Joel comes back on. I forgot the first line. If they're Chester, you should jump.
+
+[8:56] Do it. Just do it. Just do it. Go, go, go, go, go, sing, sing, sing. We'll do it next week.
+
+[8:59] We'll do it next week if someone asks for it. Come on, come on. We'll do a standing commercial for grano Arcell and we'll add verses to the to the Diddy. If anyone comes up with some more jingle material. You have to harmonize it, is what has to happen.
+
+[9:12] Well, you know, Jackie Molecules, you're right here. You're Mr. Music. You can go for it. Grano Arsaurist.
+
+[9:20] Alright. My poem for I I'm gonna sing my poem. I sing it. I'm gonna say my poem for uh James Schroeder. So James Schroeder, he's on his way.
+
+[9:29] James Schroeder's on his way here, rattle mics. Uh he's on his way here. He wrote a book on Mezcal, and he's anti, and we can think about this. By the way, call in your mezcal questions too. 7184972128.
+
+[9:40] That's 7184972128. Was that even right? Of course it was. Okay. Come on.
+
+[9:45] Anyway, so he goes on early and he hates people. I believe it was him, because I read that first chapter a while ago. He hates people calling things smoky for mezcal. What do you think about that? Yeah, I'm with him.
+
+[9:57] I've heard you call it smoky Jack Bird. So here's my poem. And we can talk about this movie here. Poems and songs this show become. Well, as I was on the subway and it was taking a long time, and I have my iPad on, so I was like, I could type.
+
+[10:13] Alright. Mezcal mezcal tastes real good. Mezcal mezcal needs no wood. And if you say it tastes like smoke, James Schroeder thinks you're a Jamok. Wow, wow.
+
+[10:25] How are you gonna light the fire in the pit to roast the agave? No, no, it needs no wood to age in. Doesn't need to be aged. Yeah, but most of the fermenting containers are made of the city. Yeah, that doesn't do squat.
+
+[10:38] I know it doesn't do any, but it needs no wood for it. And first of all, wood, what kind of jamoke are you? Do that in the earth, in clay or in freaking like, you know, animal skins. You and your fancy wood. I don't own trees.
+
+[10:50] Jerk. Anyway. Uh while we're waiting, let's say for the next question. You do own trees. Question on the phone.
+
+[10:57] Alright, question. What do we got? Oh, come on. Is that mean? Yeah.
+
+[11:04] Oh, hey Dave. Uh, this is uh Brandon Byrd calling in from Winstonville, North Carolina. How you doing? Doing well, hope you are. I'm glad to have uh big crew in the booth today.
+
+[11:13] Glad to have Jackie Molecules back and uh Nastasia, well, I mean it's full house. Oh yeah. Uh almost you know, James is not here yet, but yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, close. So I got a spirit question for you.
+
+[11:23] Um and I'm gonna preface it with a bit of an anecdote, and I hope uh Nastasia will forgive me. She won't. I just got back from a uh a trip down to the Golden Isles off the coast of Georgia, the barrier islands down there. Cool. Uh and on Cumberland Island, I had the opportunity to visit a Carnegie Family Ice House, which was a pretty cool uh building where the Carnegie family they had mansions on the island and they used to cart down ice from the Great Lakes and keep it there.
+
+[11:50] Did they impoverish a bunch of people but then build a library? Uh precisely, yes. Absolutely. Uh uh and another uh interesting ice-related thing that I saw there on the island, which I wasn't expecting to find, is that in the basement of uh the plum mansion, which is another Carnegie family mansion there on the property, there was a really ancient ice machine that they had imported from a monastery in Europe. I don't know what monastery it was, but it has the uh initials AS.
+
+[12:18] And that ice machine ended up destroying the need for the ice house. So uh once they brought that ice machine back over from Europe, that became no longer necessary for them to uh you know bring it down from the Great Lakes. First of all, first of all, may I say that that's the only time in history that an American has bought an ice product from a freaking European? Because Europe is like Europe is like the swamp uh like the like the malarial hellhole of ice machines, and their water, the pond water that they serve you, even there's it's like like viciously warm and without ice unless you ask for it, and whatever. I'm just saying, like well, apparently this was uh this was a Trappist monastery, and they were using the ice to chill bottles of their beer, so they were not consuming the ice, just using it for for killing.
+
+[13:06] Okay. At least that was a story I got. Okay. Uh but anyway, while I was there in the mansion, they had a cocktail recipe on display for champagne punch from the Pittsburgh Club. Um, and it's a pretty standard champagne punch.
+
+[13:20] It starts out with uh some lemon ice and then some uh champagne that they fortify with brandy and benedictine. But uh the recipe calls for a pint of white rock, and no one there knew what white rock was, and they were like, if you know, then it's probably white rock sugar, yeah, like loaf sugar. Like low sugar sugar mix, and now that you said benedictine, you have Benny and the Jets going through my head. That's not cool. Sorry.
+
+[13:42] That's not even me. Ben eh come on. Anyway, I like the thing is like here's the like uh it's got it's gotta be uh white white sugar, like rock rock sugar would be like recrystallized sugar of a very high purity. So like it's probably like a high purity. That's my guess because anything and rock is like unless you mean a rock of ice, like like ro like rock and rye is rock sugar and and rye.
+
+[14:05] So I'm guessing that's I'm guessing that's what you're looking at there. By the way, I just say this no offense, Europe. You know, yeah, no offense. But yeah, that's what it is. It's sugar.
+
+[14:16] And since unless you're adding more Benny than you'd actually, by the way, we call Benedictine Benny at the bar. But like if you if you uh unless you're adding a boat ton, it's not going to be sweet enough without some additional uh sugar. So I'm gonna go ahead and move that from a possibility to an absolute certainty. Well, good to know. Thank you very much.
+
+[14:36] I'm going to let the caretaker know. Uh actually, when he showed us the um ice machine, he was like, Does anyone know what this is? And I I guess that it was some sort of generator because there was a belt hooked up to it and it kind of had that look about it. He was like, Oh, that's the one that's gonna sizzle old slugworth. It makes everlasting gobstoppers.
+
+[14:54] And I knew that guy was like, Yeah, you should have just said, I don't know, garbage. I I I like machines, so I'm sure I would have loved it. Very, very uh although you're a you would have loved it. I thought of you. Yeah.
+
+[15:05] All right. Well, anyway, uh tell us how the recipe sh uh turns out. Talk to the caretaker. All right, cool. I bet.
+
+[15:11] Uh okay. The previous caller called back just to say that you at one point compared your voice to Bobby Womac, but he says you sound more like Michael McDonald when you sing. Well, it's wow. Well, you know what? It's compliment.
+
+[15:23] That's a freaking compliment. I wasn't channeling Womac for the uh what's it called? I have different mental voices. Like that was more of my, I mean, like I'm now I'm thinking of like maybe we'll come back and we'll think of what Bobby Womack jingle would have sounded like. And I wish I sounded like Bobby Womack.
+
+[15:40] I probably sound like he does now that he's dead. Oh man. 123. Alright, uh, okay, carbonated water with coffee. I have a carbonated water related question.
+
+[15:53] Uh last year we put a carbonated line at the ice cream shop so we could do sodas and ice cream floats. Well, most of our sodas have been great. Coffee soda floats have been a miss. When we tried to do unsweetened coffee soda float with vanilla ice cream, something happened that just don't work. We did a coffee concentrate, which was fine with the soda water.
+
+[16:08] It was also great with the ice cream. However, when the three elements were combined, something just was not right. Uh the mixed result was muted coffee flavor. Whenever I see just not right, REM comes to my mind. What the hell is going on with my brain today?
+
+[16:22] It's gotta be springtime. Yeah. Music's in the air. Let me tell you something about springtime. I haven't even spoken to Nastasia today because we try not to speak to each other.
+
+[16:30] But uh eat. I thought that was yesterday. This is totally a lie. You guys talk every morning. I try not to, anyway.
+
+[16:38] At least I try to forget, as I just said. But this is the absolute worst time of year for Nastasia and myself because the freaks show up in New York when the weather is like this as surely as those weird desert fish pop out of the cracks in the freaking mud. It's not that they show up, it's that they exit their winter their winter husk. Yeah. They crawl out of themselves.
+
+[16:59] Like locusts. What do you think I'm doing here, man? Yay! We're actually escaping the warm weather. Jackie Molecules coming up from DC.
+
+[17:06] So what do you got going for me, Jackie Molecules? Well, I got I'm just passing through, man. Um, I'm I was driving through New York, I looked at my clock, I was like, it's cooking issues time. Family show, don't forget. Oh, oh.
+
+[17:16] Man, speaking of I did it two weeks ago, don't worry about it. Speaking of, uh at this very moment, if you're listening live, I have a dear friend of many of us here that needs some good vibes. So if you have any extra good vibes, send them out. I'm not talking about person blowing stuff up on air. Um, okay, so back to the coffee uh related question.
+
+[17:35] Now, you liked the you liked the soda water with the coffee, and you like the soda water with the ice cream. I'm thinking it's maybe just look, it everyone knows that ice cream and coffee is everyone knows that ice cream and Nastasia is like it's like a three year old she's reaching for my iPad like a dad in a three year old you start with the first question this is the very first question from last week that you told me to freaking do Nastasia Lopez says to me you never answer the old questions and then what I do when I literally start to answer the first question I didn't answer from last week she reaches for my iPad like a three year old so that I have to like sit there and give what kind of hand is this Jackie Molecules that's the hammer right there the hammer hand the slicing hand the guillotine hand. You're the slicer. Yeah so listen uh I just think that you I don't know you very well or at all so I'm just saying that maybe you maybe you drink black coffee like I do and when you have coffee and milk together you're like nah I don't really like this very much also coffee kills bubbles and uh ice cream kills bubbles so maybe the double bubble trouble is causing you some uh issue but uh get back to holy studio is just filling up somebody was saying that tonic water is the tonic is the answer to that that it's better with coffee what is it with you and the tonic Jackie Mom means whoa that tastes good I'm just passing it on the internet's oh god do you want to what do you want to skip here? Okay okay he's no longer in his optimal chair also and Nastasi doesn't have a microphone not that she needs one because she never likes to talk she can share uh she can share the microphone with you don't even you don't even like look at your microphone to see whether or not Nastasia's microphone people maybe the reason she never talks is that her microphone's like a speed bag it's like it like rattles around like a good like 15 inches when you touch it.
+
+[19:24] She's like an ambient voice on the show, too, you know. Ambient like the music? Yeah. Yeah, she's a distant in the back. An ambient voice.
+
+[19:33] I don't know. You know what the thing I don't like about this microphone is that you can't, you have to be antisocial towards somebody in the anyway, whatever. Alright, should I rip through some more questions? Nastasi wants me to go to the first question from this week. Uh Mike from Brooklyn writes in.
+
+[19:48] Hey Dave, what do you think of this? And then Mike sent me a link to a Canadian dude. Uh, this is Vice Munchies, a Canadian dude who did some grave robbing. And then uh after robbing the graves, took the bones and boiled them to make bone broth, but wasn't caught because of the bone broth, was caught because he was taste testing the bones in the graveyard, and someone saw him licking the bones, right? And he was doing it.
+
+[20:14] And then Vice Munchies uh did a tag to when they opened up this Egyptian sarcophagus last year, there was a bunch of swampy death water in the sarcophagus. It smelled like the Egyptian authorities said, like sewage. And then there was a guy in England who wanted to make an energy drink out of said sewage. And I want to say, all you guys are stupid jokers, because for many hundreds of years, Europeans have gone and consumed uh mummy powder. This was a known medicine.
+
+[20:41] It was a mistranslation of uh an Arabic word uh that uh this for this uh kind of pitch that came out of the ground that was non-mummy related, but had a uh sound that was very similar to mummy that was used in medicine in both uh in both Arab-speaking places and also Aravedic medicine. That was then, then people picked up on that medicine, mummia, and thought they think it they it must be made for mummies. And so then, whenever they found all these mummies, they would grind them up and they would do two things with these ground up mummies. One, they would make paint, so there is actually a paint color called mummy, and it is kind of mummy colored. It's kind of like that kind of brownish.
+
+[21:21] I've been dead a long, long time color. And they would grind it into uh mummy powder for consumption. I don't know why, like everlasting life, although it didn't seem to work for the people with the mummies. Uh the you can buy the actual powder that was confused for ground up Egyptian mummies. It's called uh shajolit, I believe.
+
+[21:41] Although it's been many years since I looked it up. I used it in the very first Mofad dinner that Nastasi and I threw, which Nastasia still says is the best event that's ever been thrown in the history of events. And we did it just the two of us. Now that song's going through my mind. Is it delicious?
+
+[22:00] What does it taste like? Nah, it's nasty. Okay. Uh okay. Nastasia loved it.
+
+[22:06] No, she hated it like she hates everything. Was that your drink? It wasn't a drink. It was, it was, it was the amouse douche. Amoose douche, you can say in a family show.
+
+[22:16] Oh, look at it. Full house. You hear all that? That's the sound of a thousand people in the studio. All right, Jay, spin up a mic.
+
+[22:27] And Lou is on the phone as well, so we got our bike. Lou, what do you got for me? Okay, here's what I got for you. I've got a question. Got it.
+
+[22:36] So you so with all of this cooking, right? You're dealing with bacterial issues, correct? Uh well, sometimes. I mean, we cook things. Yeah, we don't have we we we cook things all the time that don't have bacterial problems like carrots.
+
+[22:51] But but you're familiar with bacterial issues. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a subset of cooking issues, yes. I would describe Dave as familiar with bacterial issues. So, okay, so given that, let me ask you, Dave.
+
+[23:04] Do you uh do you wash your feet on a daily basis? Yes. Everybody else in the studio wash their feet on a daily basis. Yes. This is Lou Bank's number one at this point, by the way.
+
+[23:16] Yes, this is Lou Bang's. Hang on a second. Are you so like everybody uses a washcloth and washes their feet every day? Yes. It's the last thing I wash with the washcloth before I rinse the washcloth and wring it out.
+
+[23:30] This is a lot of information to give people. Thoroughly, every day. Where do you get that, Lou? I don't wash my feet ever. My theory is, let's get back to the bacteria, right?
+
+[23:40] My theory is soapy water on my feet. I don't need to rinse. I don't need to rub, it's clean. By the way, soapy water on my feet is the beginning of a song. I don't know what it is yet, but soapy water.
+
+[23:52] Soapy water. Soapy water on my feet is the beginning. It's a country song, I think. Very likely. Yeah, yeah, country soap.
+
+[24:00] Ooh. Ooh, I gotta get a new kind of beat. We gotta get Jackie Molecules back in and give us some sort of like nouveau ex Brooklyn hipster hip hop beat for it. Hmm. Anyway, yes.
+
+[24:10] So yes, I do wash my feet. But how is this relating to cooking, or is it just a foot issue? Well, it's a J issue. This is one of the things we talk about in the car all the time. So this is one of the things that you talk about in the car all the time, Lou.
+
+[24:22] I just play along with it. No, it's no, that's fair enough. But it strikes me that it is a cooking issue because you're killing bacteria with the soap. You don't need to rub. I don't use bacteria sidal soap.
+
+[24:33] I just use like soap. I don't I don't I don't believe in coating everything in the house in bacteria sidal things. Irish spring, right? Oh, I wish I did. Man, Irish Spring, remember that?
+
+[24:44] Remember that commercial? No, don't do they even make Irish Spring anymore. Yeah. And the person shows up with a knife and cuts the little piece off of it. It's got green and white stripes in it.
+
+[24:54] We still talk about the same Irish Spring? Yeah. Does anyone else you use this chat? No. Let me tell you something.
+
+[25:02] Generally aware. This is another piece of too much information for anybody here. I have a visceral distaste for bar soap. I use liquid soap. Huh.
+
+[25:10] I do not like bar soaps. Agree. Hard agree. Really? I'm on the I'm on the bar soap train.
+
+[25:14] I always happen. I, you know, this is a very lot of information, but like I like the fact that like you have to like thoroughly rinse the soap, or there might be a possibility of a hair on the soap that stays there. Hard no. Yeah. Hard soap hair is a real issue.
+
+[25:30] This has gone off the rails. You can see it though. It's not like you're gonna mysteriously come across one. Well, but do you even want to see it? You don't want to see somebody else's hair on your soap?
+
+[25:41] No. Whoa. Who said anything about anybody else's hair? The only time I'll use the- Who is sharing a bar? The only time I'll use bar soaps.
+
+[25:48] First of all, it in in a hotel, I use the I use the bottled mini shampoos, and if they have a bath gel, I'll use that one. But if I do use that miniature rancid little bar of soap, I will use it once and pitch it right the heck out. And the soap's just sitting there and it's it in its own like soap. I've heard many people say, soap, it washes itself. Get it?
+
+[26:10] It's soap, but I just don't like it. It's a mental thing. Same way that I don't like public restrooms. Somebody suggested to me that nobody uses washcloths anymore. And I'm like, I use two washcloths every time.
+
+[26:21] I don't understand. Like, look, there there's like if unless you have like super mega, super mega uh water pressure, right? Like a a some form of wiping device is like necessary to abrasively remove the film of filth that gets on you from living in a real city. You know what I mean? Or even like let's say you don't, then you like you know live somewhere where there's a lot of dust around.
+
+[26:47] Like, you know, Jackie Molecules was here, he's from uh Washington, DC, which is just a large dust cloud. You know what I mean? Uh when it's not being a slump, you know. Uh and uh you ever been to the mall in the summertime, people? Yeah.
+
+[27:00] It's like being in a freaking rodeo. It's like dust everywhere. It's nightmare. That's true. Well, but legs are but if you're but if you're using the washcloth, how do you get your hair on the soap?
+
+[27:11] No, I don't. I don't use bar soap. I I guess you're right. I could I look, I guess you're right. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I this is so much information.
+
+[27:20] Whatever. I just I feel like I'm giving issues now? Well, I feel like the bathing issues is getting is this gonna loop back to cooking somewhere? You know that uh it used to be many years ago, I'm sure the science is a lot better, but in the 80s they did a study of San Francisco sourdough uh sourdough starters and found that one of the bacteria is mostly from human gums. Ooh, huh?
+
+[27:43] There you go. Wait, but Lou, can you talk about what you're doing uh with us and Jay later this week? Uh clearly not cleaning our feet. So what we're gonna be doing on Friday evening, it's is it six o'clock? 6 30.
+
+[27:58] 6 30. At 6 30 is we're gonna be tasting through five agave spirits, airlumagave spirits. Um not certified as mascot, just agave spirits, uh, as a fundraiser for uh Heritage Radio. Woo. Okay, so let me get let me let me get this.
+
+[28:14] So you are you are very much for disallowing things to be called just agave spirits and crushing the small farmers that don't fit into the uh denominations, right? I'm just kidding. I just messing with you. No, I think that's Lou is big Mezcal only. He is on a big Mescal train.
+
+[28:30] In a really weird way, yes, he is. And it's in a kind of like a rising tide lifts all ships sort of way. I think that's Lou's. But don't you think they speak for you? Don't you think it's ridiculous that we have like I mean, isn't isn't like something like Ricea just mezcal from Jalisco?
+
+[28:44] I mean, like, really? And honestly, isn't it? Well, it depends on how you're defining Mescal. See, like, oh man, you're gonna get me all police. Isn't sparkling wine from California champagne?
+
+[28:55] I mean, no, you're being ridiculous. No, no. Uh oh, no, no, that is the biggest load of horse hockey I've ever heard in my entire life, Jack, because the category is a swoop down fart a name onto stuff that already existed anyway. Unlike champagne, which is a region, uh, find the place called like I am mezcal, and then like, you know, we can go to it. But it's already spread all over the freaking map anyway, and it was pooped on to something that already existed.
+
+[29:21] Yeah, yeah, this was a word that was stolen. It was stolen by uh the Mexican government from the people, and it makes me nuts. So is is Ricea just mezcal from Jalisco? It used to be until the Mexican government stole the word. Unfortunately, you I mean you can say it, but it's inaccurate now because it can't be Mescal because it's not certified as Mescal, right?
+
+[29:41] This is the whole point is the Mexican government stole that word. And it's and it's cutting out, it's cutting out people who really did build the reputation of what is uh considered Mescal. Okay. Okay, okay. All right.
+
+[29:54] By the way, is one of those that you're tasting the one that you sent me in the mail? I've got a bottle that's sitting right outside the studio right now. And I've got a related product, something very stylistically similar from a town a couple towns over in MitroCon, but it's also kind of different. Do you want to make that stuff magically appear in the case? I brought Copetas.
+
+[30:09] I I can definitely make this materialize. Alright, right, all right, all right. Let's do this. Uh, and then I'm also gonna read you my uh poem. And so I can get your reaction to it.
+
+[30:20] James, you ready for the poem? I'm here ready for the poem. All right. Mezcal mezcal tastes real good. Mezcal mezcal needs no wood, i.e.
+
+[30:30] for for. And if you say it tastes like smoke, James Schroeder thinks you're a Jamok. That I think all that's very accurate. Yeah, yeah. Okay, now sing them the jingle for granular so.
+
+[30:41] Oh, that makes sense. Paris Gourmet delivers the finest specialty imported and local foods directly to chefs. For over 35 years, Paris Gourmet has sourced specialty foods from around the world. They're Meadowlands headquarters services, the New York Tri-State area. Paris Gourmet delivers Burmont butters, cacao Noel chocolates, ravi fruit pureees, cuisine tech ingredients, and bon patisier viennoiserie to your kitchen.
+
+[31:13] Paris Gourmet brings the world to your doorstep. They're close when professionals need them most. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more.
+
+[31:27] My name is Diane Stemple. And I'm Elena Santigade, and we're the hosts of Cutting the Curd here on Heritage Radio Network. Featuring interviews with makers and mongers and everybody in between, this show is a downright funky look at the world of artisan cheese. You can find cutting the curd wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritageradio network.org. So why do you dislike that as you think it's just because it simplifies it too much?
+
+[31:54] I think I think there's no way to not simplify this stuff. When we're looking at agave spirits in general, you've got this giant gradient of traditions and different names and different techniques. And even there's no clean way to divide this at all. Even just the idea of agave distillates. There's people doing weird stuff out there.
+
+[32:10] There's things that aren't made from agave that fit within the family of agave distillates. It's its own thing, but it works and functions very much the same way. So there's no way to divvy this stuff up and except on like a micro-micro level. Like the smaller you focus in, you can make similarities. There's similarities between these two products that brought it because they're made a couple times over by people who use really similar techniques.
+
+[32:31] I noticed you didn't cover Sotol in your book. Is it because you did you're like, I have to draw the line somewhere and there's just so much? Pretty much, yeah. I mean, it it almost everything in there is applicable towards Sotol. There's some specific concerns with the plants uh that go into it.
+
+[32:45] They grow a little different. Um but yeah, just try to make it a little tighter scope. Also, if any of you uh if any of you folks out there are like uh wildcrafter only kind of folk, you should call in and talk to James about his beliefs on uh the future of cultivated quote unquote wild varieties. Because it's kind of an I think it's gonna be an interesting, it's gonna be an interesting thing uh going forward, uh how this how this plays out. But you're you have a very like wait and see but hopeful look about cultivating these things rather than just uh harvesting them out of existence, right?
+
+[33:16] Right, and it's happening. It's already all over Mexico. There's already people thinking about the future and planting. And you know, I think one of the things in traveling around a lot in Mexico, you just see an abundance of agave everywhere. As much as I'm worried about the wild ecology of it, there's a ton of plants in the ground that are just growing wherever they grow.
+
+[33:32] I was with Lou in Ixcatlan. My God, there's so many agave's growing around there. So it's, you know, I I think the shift over to cultivation is more like a smart economic move. Uh and kind of people plan it for their own futures a little bit. But it's gonna change how things taste, but in a way that I won't be able to predict, you know.
+
+[33:49] Now give us the 30, give us the 30 second plug on uh I know that you like you're kind of like over people only talking about agave varietals so you like push it towards the end of the book. But uh but give us the 30 seconds on the 30 seconds on the agave varietals. Just it's like especially say Madriquish a bunch. Madriquiche. Yeah yeah it's uh the agave varietals in general you're looking at uh like grapes to wine you know you're dealing with a set of flavors you start out with and then fermentation layers so much on top of that in such an ineffable way because you don't even know what critters are going on in the fermenter.
+
+[34:20] Um all spontaneous all wild fermentation across the board except for tequila it's kind of the stepchild yeah uh well if the stepchild were suddenly take over and crush the world is pretty is pretty darn successful but generally speaking no wild fermentation there but yeah you just I'm somebody's stepchild. Really? I'm two people's stepchild two separate people's stepschild are those two people happy about that we just gotta know. No I think so I think so. Alright so what are we tasting here?
+
+[34:51] Or I should say what are we not tasting? Not at all. Uh we've got this is the uh this is the guy that uh I brought out or I sent out originally so I I was not able to find this on the internet's Jose Inés Vieira's uh well I can't read, I can't read you right here. So Jose Ines Viera, uh, it's a Gabe Cupriada out of Mitroacan. Uh little little tiny town, town of about 30 people.
+
+[35:13] It's called El called uh El Agua Catito. Um super tiny little speck of a place. This guy makes really good stuff. Uh pretty high elevation, it's a little bit kind of lactic. Uh you get that kind of cheesy, kind of funky sort of thing going on.
+
+[35:27] Uh underground fermentation in wood uh distilled in copper pot stills. It's copper with a wood head on top of it. Oh, cool. Let's try it out. And while you're doing that, is my memory.
+
+[35:39] Uh I first met you years ago uh when you were um you know with the uh with the Rick Bayless Empire, and uh I I think he's he's a good guy. I like him. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh and uh I'm pretty sure I went to your house and you had a trained cat.
+
+[35:57] You went to my house, I had a trained cat, you commented on an analytical uh chemical engineering book that I had, textbook, and then we ate Red Hot Ranch shrimp and drank so tall on the patio of Red Hot Ranch at 4 a.m. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I need to hear more about the cat.
+
+[36:13] Yeah, yeah. And this is Nastasi, by the way, claims that she can train a cat. Let's hear her say it. I can train a cat. To do what?
+
+[36:21] To be good. What the hell does that mean? I have seen Nastasia Lopez walk up to like what amounts to an alley cat, like a wild fair island cat, pick it up, and like just shake it, like shake it, and be like, come on, cat, and then like grab a tin and like and like I've never seen anyone freak out a cat. I mean, like a cat, you can freak out a cat and it's like meow! But she's like, she freaks out of cats because the cat's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[36:48] Right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you you taught a cat to pee on toilet on the toilet I tried once, it was on the susceptible that starts small the seat that starts small.
+
+[36:56] I'm sorry, I have only the one toilet. It's it's the size of itself regular size toilet you know I read I read on the internet and oh it wasn't even the internet didn't exist in I had a book an ask the god book what it said that what you do is you know that old trick that you're supposed to do that doesn't really work where you put the plastic wrap over the toilet and then someone poops on it and the poops on their butt you familiar I am familiar with that's a definitely yeah it's a thing it's a thing uh don't do it I've never done it don't do it I thought it was so they pee in it splash I don't know I don't know definitely definitely never high tank me anyway if you want to bring up the something uh anyway so point being that the theory was is that to get your cat to do it you would plastic wrap your toilet seat and throw some kitty litter on the plastic to get it into the habit of jumping up and using the kitty litter that was on top of your toilet bowl and then eventually it would go be like I could eat it nostalgia's saying no no they have toilets where you just put seats where you just put this the larger seat with a smaller circle on your thing and then it starts because the disincentive to the cat is you bought the wrong toilet no and then you the comfort on a regular toilet situation. But like if a cat sees like if a cat sees a coffee cup they're like that's the right size and then they pee in it. No it's a training tool. You're a training tool for sure.
+
+[38:17] Alright now James what did you train this cat to do this by the way smells fantastic. Yeah it's uh it's excellent I think we should drink some of it uh I trained my cat to he can wave on command he can high five nice um I make him like wave for his food every day. He's very, very food motivated. This is Maverick. Shout out to Maverick.
+
+[38:36] Good name. It's excellent cat. Super old. He's like 14, 15 years old. I'm trying to think.
+
+[38:40] He does uh he'll like like play dead, basically. Like he'll lay back on his on his back and if you don't want a 14-year-old to be able to do that. Is that a trap dead? Is that a trap though where he wants you to rub his belly and then he attacks? Yes.
+
+[38:50] Cats. But it'll do it on command though now. Nice. Yeah, we need a fifth vessel. Don't worry, we can sh we can split.
+
+[38:55] So listen, so uh, ooh. That's nice. So explain uh no mouth noises, sorry, that was me. Uh so uh why don't you explain what's going on here? And by the way, all of you people who are listening to this, sorry, chumps, you can't taste it because I'm pretty sure this stuff's unavailable.
+
+[39:10] This is the mean thing to do to somebody. We're tasting something, we're tasting unobtainium. How much of the love of Mezcal is the unobtainium aspect? An awful lot of it. I think, you know, so many, there's like a collector's market, there's people who like bring stuff back in their suitcase, and you know, it's all super rarefied and all that.
+
+[39:25] But yeah, a lot of it's just the fact that it's ineffable. Even this, like batch to batch. We were tasting through this guy's stuff, and this particular batch was super, super dope. And there was some other stuff that he had that was good, but it's just different. So, you know, even within one single producer, we're just focusing on a moving target, you know?
+
+[39:41] Yes, that's me. Yeah, is this the guy who uh he was mixing the batches? Yeah, he was proofing like per small container and he didn't vat everything together. So all the kind of like these oddball like different cuts in each little thing, but they were all the same ABV. So from different like little micro segments of the distillation, and then he would just put some of the first one in this container and then proof it down with tails.
+
+[40:04] Okay, that one's good. So nothing ever got vatted together, so it was never consistent. So each individual container was totally different than other containers. Wow. Yeah, so so in fact, then uh uh Dave, you're wrong.
+
+[40:17] We can bring some of that to the tasting on Friday so that some people can taste it. There you go. Yes, please. And how do people get this? Uh how do people get to this tasting?
+
+[40:25] How does this happen for people? Uh we have like, I think literally about five tickets left. Go to heritage radio network.org/slash sacred and get them while they're going. Where is the tasting again? At El Cortez, uh, the corner of Ingerham and Bogart Street.
+
+[40:39] I know where Bogart is. What the heck's an Ingerham? Ingraham. It's like you know where our building is um down the corner? It's just right.
+
+[40:45] It's like two blocks from Roberta's. Is that a real neighborhood or is it like this? Ah ha ha it's the what? This is not a real neighborhood. Why do people like live here?
+
+[40:56] This is a warehouse district. If you're gonna live here, at least have the good sense to have a giant space and be an artist who needs to weld stuff all the time. That's me. I just I I'm welding every day. You should be welding every day.
+
+[41:09] Welding is amazing. So okay, so uh Jack, what are your thoughts on this product? It's excellent. Like the thing that drives. Oh my god.
+
+[41:17] The thing that draws me to mezcal is the the wild fermentation aspect of it and the hand of the maker aspect of it. Like it's not about the rarity, it's that like you can taste a person's hands and in it every time. You just nostasi just gave you the gross face. Taste the person's hands. Yeah.
+
+[41:33] Taste the hands. Cannot taste their feet. No. Nastasi, what do you think? I think it's good for Mesco.
+
+[41:39] Oh, that's cool. Not everything's for everybody. That's okay. It's controversial. Not everything's for everybody.
+
+[41:47] So what do you have you tried this uh South African uh agave from the transplant? Uh South African, it's called Four Rabbit or something like this. I have not. I've heard of it. I have not tried it.
+
+[41:56] Leon. So uh here's another uh thing I was curious about. Have you ever tried um Jerusalem artichoke distillate? No, I haven't. It's also Inulin-based, so it needs to be cooked for a long time the way Agave does, but I doubt it's gonna taste even remotely similar.
+
+[42:13] I looked it up. Uh agave, as you know, is uh a monocot, so it's like you know, more closely related to grass than it is to uh, let's say roses or a dandelion or something like this. Uh and Jerusalem artichokes are uh from the Aster family, so they're like they couldn't be they couldn't be more separated as flowering plants, practically. Uh but I don't know, I'm interested in trying, I'm interested in trying any sort of have to cook it a long time to get the sugar out of it to see kind of how much similarity. Also, I don't think Drusalom artichoke as fibrous.
+
+[42:43] Although Nastasia gave some much that we say fiber to her friends in the form of undercooked uh Jerusalem artichoke, knowing she would give them severe gastrointestinal distress. Ooh. That's cold. But delicious. You know, they're delicious raw.
+
+[42:58] I'll I'll take the damage. Do you know who really really really likes uh the uh undercooked Jerusalem artichoke is the bacteria in your intestine when they inflate it up to the size of a balloon? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yes. And then you put the plastic on your toilet seat.
+
+[43:14] Put the litter litter. Yeah. But you don't need to worry because someone's already put some uh in the actual toilet in the uh in the high tank there. They've uh they have upper deck. That little upper decker mixed savage upper decker.
+
+[43:26] Yeah, worst. Worst, worst. You have we have a mezgal question from the chat. Love it. What do you got?
+
+[43:31] It might be a bit blasphemous, but it always seems to me that the process used for making tequila, uh stainless steel cookers, would be better able to let the characteristics of specific types of agave come through in the final product. Why aren't people making a distillate from different types of agave, but using the tequila process? That's fair. I think that's a fair assessment. But what so uh my argument would be I think that this is all about the process.
+
+[43:57] You know, the the agave itself is bringing a good handful of flavors to it as a really uh aromatically rich source material for making spirits. Then you've got this crazy wild fermentation on the top of it. You're layering flavor on flavor on flavor on top of it, the roast, the slow caramelizing, and almost the kind of burning of the outside of the sugar on the agave pancas. Like that's I think that's so uh crux of what uh mezcal is in general. Like that is that is the category of mezcal.
+
+[44:21] You're tasting this whole event that happened over the course of a week or so. Uh the question is, wouldn't it be interesting to taste it? Taste a product, maybe not mezcal, that is just without those other things, just a plant. Yes, I would say it would be interesting. I would like to taste that.
+
+[44:38] Yeah. But it it exists. It's called Zignum. Wait. There's it it Lou is speaking about a large multinational owned uh distillery in Oaxaca.
+
+[44:50] No. No, it's owned by a woman. She happens to also own the rights to Coca-Cola in Mexico. Uh but it's just one person. But but she's she's literally making an espadine distillate that is certified as mascot, but it's made in the same industrial way that tequila is.
+
+[45:05] But not that some tequilas are, not all tequila is. But I mean, still using espadine and not like one of the other weird other we're talking about other varietals as well. Like seeing the diversity, you don't know what flavors agave tepestate or madruce is bringing to the table. Because you don't you haven't ever tasted it on its own. You've only tasted it cross-comparatively with stuff that somebody else has made.
+
+[45:30] Yeah, fair enough. But you could certainly compare the blue Weber of tequila to the Espedine of Mescal. It was made the exact same way. Yeah, right. The question is, what would happen if you what would happen if you used like a completely different I'm I would I would taste it.
+
+[45:43] If you made it, I would taste it for sure. I would think it'd be good as a as an experiment, as like a thought experiment, as like a teaching tool, but I don't want to I probably wouldn't want to sit around and drink it. You guys, you can't. After all of your non-snob talk, you're like, I wouldn't want to sit around. What about our weights that are using cenizo in Durango?
+
+[46:06] Oh, like 618, yeah. So there's a producer in Durango that uses agave during seas, and they're super like they use the word industrial in describing their process, which I'm so all about that they own the way they do it, and they talk about it straight up. Can they listen to ministry? Maybe. That'd be amazing.
+
+[46:21] We gotta go down there if they do. Yeah, yeah. Jesus did in fact build my car. Uh now It's a love affair. Mainly Jesus and my hot rod.
+
+[46:30] Anyway, uh so uh James, you have a book out called Understanding Mezcal. And here's some things I learned in your book. Uh I didn't realize how atypical the cutting process was in the distillation. You want to talk about cutting in uh mezcal versus in other spirits? Sure, there's absolutely no way to simplify it.
+
+[46:46] It's like the hardest thing. You're you're you're dealing with liquid that's constantly changing as it comes off the still in terms of alcohol percentage, the flavors that are there, all of that. And generally the distiller will take uh different selections of that, vat those things together, and then use different proportions of those two things to try to adjust to end up getting the actual ABB that they're looking for. So you got the heads, which normally I say spirits, I say a heads, you're scared, like this is the thing that's gonna hurt me, right? It's got methanol in it, a bunch of nasties.
+
+[47:13] Uh because of some special tricky things with agave, uh, methanol generally comes off mostly in the tails. So you're able to take that earlier cut. Uh and that's super high ABB, like 70% alcohol, somewhere around there. Uh and then you take a uh tail end of the distillate, they call puntas or uh colas, excuse me, uh, and then use that 20, 30% alcohol, and they use those two things together generally to adjust. Some people don't adjust with the tails, they just adjust with colors.
+
+[47:39] Can you imagine adjusting with the freaking tails like in a whiskey? I mean, can you imagine that? Or like like not getting rid of the pop skull in that? You know what I mean? It would be really raucous.
+
+[47:49] I mean, there's a reason it's called pop skull, pop skull, smoking, pop skull. You know what I mean? It's like anyway. So, like, I was shocked, I did not know that. That was interesting fact.
+
+[48:00] And there's no like true to form way of doing it. It's it is uh some people include the heads and some don't. Some people throw away the first thing and some people don't. Some people throw away a couple liters off the front, some people don't throw away anything off the front. They literally just run the still straight through.
+
+[48:13] And I did I did not know that. That I was shocked to find that out. Also, how do they replenish the water in the top of a traditional clay skill still? Uh in a traditional clay still with a pan on it, yeah. Just have like a running water source that'll go on like a little hose or something, and then like have a little offset uh off outlet on the side of it that runs into another hose that runs it away somewhere.
+
+[48:36] Right. So uh, I mean, like you were talking about efficiency and stills, and efficiency can mean many things. To me, efficiency means heat in cooling, like how efficient is it at producing a liter of alcohol per um per like input of energy in form of heat and or in the form of cooling with water. And when people forget about distillation, don't forget this, people. That everything you boil off, you have to recondense.
+
+[48:59] This is the mistake everyone always makes. They shaft themselves on the condensing end of their still uh apparatus. They don't provide enough cooling power. This is especially true in rotovaps, because in regular stuff you just turn up the water flow and because you don't need very cold temperatures. But I'm talking about you rotovap freaks out there.
+
+[49:13] I love you talking about efficiency in rotovaps when part of our process at Booker and Dax was literally rubbing butter around the outside. Whenever you say rubbing butter, you also have to say blah blah blah. So the uh, but the the interesting thing is is that is that efficiency, so I would have guessed that the actual input efficiency of these things is quite low because it has fairly small amount of cooling capacity uh for the size of thing that you're working. But when you talk efficiency, you're talking distillation efficiency in terms of ethanol per run, ethanol percentage per run. And you're saying that because of the you know, kind of relative amount of product that recondenses inside of the still and goes back down in, and the way that these kind of what you would think of as relatively um you know technologically non-advanced stills, uh, they actually produce a higher uh distillation efficiency and so don't need to be run through as much for a particular ethanol level.
+
+[50:09] True. Yes, exactly. They're choosier, they're better at separating things from other things. You're you get more alcohol and less water early in the distillation, and you get more water and less alcohol later in the distillation than a less distillation efficient still. Right.
+
+[50:23] So it has more as like uh as uh like a European distiller might say, kind of imaginary plates in it. By plate, uh it's too complicated to do it. Too complicated. Also, what about the copper? Now you're saying you were hating on copper, not hating on it, but you were saying that you think that the whole copper thing is a load of garbage.
+
+[50:41] I've distilled rum without copper and it tastes nasty. Like, have you tried distilling any other distillates in a clay still without copper and seeing whether they're good? Is there something weird about agave distillates that means you don't have to have the copper? Because I've tasted products that were distilled without copper, and they were bad. You're asking a really good question.
+
+[51:01] And like in the in the book, I say specifically that uh the distiller I call it's Don Q rum, and they have a giant stainless uh column still, and they have one single copper plate in it. And it's like, I don't know, it just makes it better. And that's a chemical engineer telling me that. And I'm like, got it. Like, I'm not gonna be able to understand this, right?
+
+[51:18] Yeah, I mean, I mean, like the the way the story goes, it's been told to me is that the reason stills were made out of copper is because it's easy to form and easy to solder. Right. And it conducts heat rather well, uh, etc. etc. It's good for a bunch of stuff.
+
+[51:30] It's good for a bunch of stuff. You can easily get copper sheet goods. Uh, you know, it just makes your life a lot easier if you're gonna go out and illegally make or even legally make stills. You know what I mean? Uh you can hammer it real well.
+
+[51:43] I mean, it's just it copper is just a really nice thing to work with in general, except for the cost. It's expensive. Uh, you know, especially for things like condensers. I mean, can you beat a copper for a condenser? I'm telling you you can't.
+
+[51:55] Uh you know what I mean? But in terms of just you know, efficiency. I guess silver. But yeah, anyway, but like the thing is is that who the hell's gonna do that? Yeah, make a silver still.
+
+[52:03] Oof, oof. Uh so they made them with copper originally, and this as the story goes, there is some reaction, may or may not be understood. I haven't researched it recently. Uh, and then when they move to stainless uh stills and other still materials, they're like, this sucks. And then someone was like, What's the difference?
+
+[52:22] Maybe it's the copper. And so they put some copper in and all of a sudden it was good again, and they're like, I don't need to know why, I just need to know. Yeah. That's how I run my life, by the way. I don't even know why, I just need to know.
+
+[52:33] Uh, Jack's giving me the F U face. Anyway, uh, so I don't I don't hate on copper though. I I just I know I don't understand it very well, but the the flip side of that that I don't get into in it is that in a lot of configurations with a c uh clay pot still, you don't use any copper at any point, is what you're saying, right? And that's super fascinating. And I don't know what another spirit would be like through that.
+
+[52:54] It'd probably be really weird. Huh. What are the pans made out of? Not copper. Well, they can be made out of copper, they can be made out of stainless steel.
+
+[53:00] Sometimes they're made out of like less savory stuff like tin, um, like mezcal amarillo, they use like reactive metal and it turns the mezcal that comes out of it kind of like ruddy, like rusty color. I want that. Uh I don't think it's good for you, but other than that. I mean, how much am I gonna drink? Speaking of, pour up, fool.
+
+[53:15] Ah. Uh it not being good for us has never stopped Dave or myself before. So uh someone explained to me, uh someone first described for those who uh I mean uh obviously the Spanish word, but explain copita and kind of like the cultural uh the cultural social aspects of drinking mezco. There's no uniform set of rules. Every place it's different.
+
+[53:40] In the north, they drink out of uh cow horns oftentimes. Gross. It is it it's and they smell very meaty. It does definitely impart. I've drunk a lot of stuff out of cow horns.
+
+[53:48] Gross. We used to have something called in college, we had something called the party horn, and it was a moose call, and it had an umbassure glued in the bottom, and it had a leather thong around the cow horn, and you would wear this cow horn, full-size cow horn, and then this I shouldn't describe this as terrible, and you'd put a bunch of, you know, I don't know, gin and sprite, whatever it was back in the day, into the cow horn, and you would drink it and then blow the moose call at the end, and might surprise you to know that after one very long night I woke up without the moose call, someone had stolen it. Ugh. That's a sad story. The party horn was gone forever.
+
+[54:27] What is it with people stealing things that are special and important to us? I don't know. People are bad. What else was stolen? Our bathroom devil?
+
+[54:36] Oh, yeah. Your bathroom always has like stuff ripped off the wall, doesn't it? Well, we screwed a painting on backwards so that people could just write on it and send it to me. Someone tried to rip it off. It's crazy.
+
+[54:45] It was screwed into the wall and then was torn free almost. They want a souvenir. Alright, Jack. Garrett Richard's supposed to call in and plug his thing, but he didn't. Oh, yeah.
+
+[54:56] So can you find the information and plug it for me? Yeah, it's happening this Sunday at the Rains Law Room at the William Hotel. What time? I will find the time for you. And describe what it's called.
+
+[55:05] He, by the way, is exotica night. He is our resident kind of tiki guru at the bar, and he says stuff that makes me make kind of a vegan face, but his taste is really good. And so he has a lot more latitude than almost anyone that I I work with on giving me like eight billion ingredient cocktails. True or false, Jack? True.
+
+[55:24] Alright, now describe what we're drinking. Oh, this is uh little something different. So this is not a gave cuperiata from Michael, this is agave in a kittens. Uh in the town of Rio de Paras, they uh tend to use that a little bit more often. Uh some of this is a Whoa, fermented with pulque?
+
+[55:38] This is fermented with poke, so they use poke as a fermentation starter. I've never had real pulquet, I've had canned pulquet, which is garbage! Yeah, we gotta change that. Gam polque garbage, right? Camp okay is not worth your time.
+
+[55:49] I was like, I had it and I was like, I do not like this, but I'm not judging pulquet based on this. I think poke is a great word. It's a good word. Pulke. Right?
+
+[55:59] Yes. Alright. Uh all right. While Jack's fighting that, Nastasi and I are considering doing a short web series where uh she sits there and makes fun of me while I review old kitchen equipment, like weird old kitchen equipment. I have one of them.
+
+[56:13] I'm not gonna say what it is, but I have one. But if any of you have uh weird old kitchen equipment ideas for us to or gadgets that you think might be funny for us to test out. Now, in this one that I have, uh just so you know, I'm gonna have to pull out a little science, I'm gonna have to pull out a multimeter. There will be yelling. Nastasi will make fun of me.
+
+[56:34] I haven't even recorded it yet, and yet I know all of these things. So uh if you have any ideas, send uh tweet them on over to um cooking issues. Also, uh I was looking up, you know who's still alive, people? Ron Popeel is still alive. He's like 83 years old.
+
+[56:49] You guys know who Ron Popeel is? No. Mr. Set It and Forget It. Mr.
+
+[56:53] Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr.
+
+[56:56] Wait, but wait, there's more. Mr. Like uh, you know, uh Ronco Rotissory oven. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[57:03] Still alive. Uh Nastasi, we should try to get him on the show to talk about that would be incredible. Ron Popeel on how he came up with all those kitchen gadgets. Yeah. From one gadget crew to another.
+
+[57:14] We should get a bunch of them before and try and cook a bunch of stuff in them. We should, and that's why I thought of this because I was looking up some Ronco products for the for you know what Nastasi's gonna do. And I was like, Oh, Ron Popeel, he's dead, right? And not only is he not dead, he's from New York, and he's like 83, so you never know. Yeah, well, who is it?
+
+[57:31] Malcolm Gladwell that wrote the the short piece on him. I don't know. I believe so. Yeah. Very interesting.
+
+[57:36] The t the tipping of Ron Popeel? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Nastassi, you gonna do that? You're good at that.
+
+[57:40] I am talking about it. For while she's pulling that up, uh Garrett's thing is this Sunday, uh, April 28th, at the Rain's Law Room at the William Hotel. Doors at six. He goes pretty late. I've gone after service in the past and continue to be served cocktails until around two.
+
+[57:58] Now, in did he doesn't dressed in black for this. Is he full tiki out? Full tiki, and it is a sight to behold. Different outfit every time. Worth it just for the outfit.
+
+[58:06] Worth it just for the bolo tie. Because g Garrett, Garrett, first of all, he has an excellent collection of bolo ties, including a sparkling kind of like Easter Island head bolo and like yeah, yeah, yeah. But the th the thing also is a he's not merely interested in tiki the drink. Like he is. No, he's fully embedded in the culture and has been since high school somehow.
+
+[58:28] Yeah, he is like discovered the music and then whatever the cosplay equivalent of tiki is, he is. No, he it's not cosplay. That's just life. Wait, what's what's cosplay? Cosplay is when you like are a person and then you also dress up as a character.
+
+[58:42] But he's not dressing up as a character. He is the kicker. He embodies the lifestyle. Yes. Alright, that's fair.
+
+[58:48] And he would do that at the bar where we do not have an all black dress code. Can't he get black on black tiki? If he he's he's actually actively searching for it. Okay. Uh so any uh any last words, uh, James on training cats, on uh Mezcal, on the tasting that's coming up.
+
+[59:08] Super excited for the tasting. Oh, by the way, this is uh this is delicious, much more austere than the first guy though. Yeah, this is that a bad thing to say or no. Yeah. Yeah, austere is a very fair statement on it.
+
+[59:18] Still kind of lactic. You're dealing with really um kind of cold weather at night. Uh this guy ferments in giant uh he has one giant fermenter uh that's super deep. Uh goes probably ten feet underground. It's about two thirds submerged in the ground out of concrete.
+
+[59:33] So concrete. Alright. There you go. Alright, so any last uh any last things. Thanks for coming on.
+
+[59:38] Of course. Yes. Can I get a last word in? Yes, of course. I just can I get two last words in?
+
+[59:44] Yes. You get two. Alvin Schultz. Okay, I just wanted to say that. Now he's gonna be so happy.
+
+[59:44] I saw him in Houston. I forgot to mention Nastasi and I were in Houston uh, I don't know, like what is that? Four days ago, five days ago? Yeah. From the Facebooks and the Instagram, it seems like he's he's killing the world right now.
+
+[1:00:01] Just like I didn't recognize it. He was looking, he's looking fantastic. You know, I think years ago he came to Booker all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh anyway, yeah, it was good.
+
+[1:00:10] It was good to see him. And he had distilled for us uh a a uh he I guess blended or infused tomato plant into a mezcal and then roto vaped it out and boomeranged that to us at UB Preserve. By the way, big shout out to UB Preserve. We had a good time uh over there. Big shout out to Nick Wong in general, yeah.
+
+[1:00:29] Yeah, yeah, and the whole crew, they did a great job. We had to do, I was forcing them to do a lot of like kind of like our stuff, and they did a really good job. You know what I mean? It was cool. I enjoyed it.
+
+[1:00:38] Nastasia did not enjoy it because Nastasia has just now learned that the liquid bread carbonator caps are now manufactured in such a way that they cross thread like a mofo on soda bottles. So Nastasi and I went just gotta have a feel for it. There's some very good thrift shops right near UB Preserve. Shout out to Pavement. And uh when we went there, like uh Nastasia was like, here's what's gonna happen.
+
+[1:00:59] We're all gonna buy something and wear it at the thing. I'm like, you're only saying that because you don't have to be in front of the people, you can do whatever you want. But Nastasia bought, I I have to say, I feel it a lot of crack on her outfit. I liked her dress very much, but she sprayed it with free game cranberry juice. She sprayed it with cranberry juice.
+
+[1:01:15] With vodka crayon? Yeah, with vodka crayon. It was seven dollars, so. But it's still, but it's it's the amount of money you spent's not important. It's that it was worth more than what you paid.
+
+[1:01:23] I bought a pair of cowboy boots, lizard skin. Lizzie's skin. Wow, yeah, yeah. A little high. Uh I now know how a woman's calf feels.
+
+[1:01:32] What? No, you can say it. Say it into Jack's mic. But anyway, uh we had a we had a good time uh down there in Texas. That's more cosplay, me wearing cowboy boots.
+
+[1:01:41] Yeah, definitely. That's cosplay. And I didn't bring my hat. I legitimately wear, although I people when I wear my hats, they're like, eh, cowboy hat. I'm like, you're an idiot.
+
+[1:01:51] It's not a freaking cowboy hat. Doesn't look like a cow. I wear planters, I wear planter style with telescoped brim, you stupid joker. You know what I mean? But I don't know if you know this.
+
+[1:02:01] I don't know if people have looked at like seen pictures of me. I am white. I burn. I burn. And I also hat.
+
+[1:02:08] I hate, I hate uh sunscreen. People, the man suffered a terrible third degree burn on his entire back. He needs clothing and hats. That's true. That's true.
+
+[1:02:19] Even if I liked lotion, which I hate, right? Uh I don't know whether it's because of, you know, it puts the lotion on the skin, left a scar on me or what. Now I have that going through my mind. I used to be a non-lotion person and I became a lotion person, and let me tell you, Dave, it's gonna change your life. You gotta hydrate, man.
+
+[1:02:34] Yeah. It's so important. Especially with your skin. I hate lotion. So instead, I just wear long.
+
+[1:02:41] The only part of my body that's always exposed is the back of my hand. Listen, the only reason I stopped getting crazy fingernail infections was because I started moisturizing. As a bartender, the most important thing you can do is take care of your hands. Would you say this is a moisture management problem? Listen, it's a it's a miracle that I'm still here.
+
+[1:02:59] I like that this episode has become like a personal grooming episode. I know. I know. If any of you have any questions about it, 2019 self-care is important. I need a I need a good set of tweezers, speaking of.
+
+[1:03:10] Oh, I don't want to know why. No, all of my tweezers get thrown out or used for other stuff. So Jen, my wife Jen had like a like it's does anyone out there have jewelry drawers? No. No.
+
+[1:03:23] No, anyway, like she had like an old jewelry drawer and it was all thrown in. One of those little chains like wrapped itself around some costume jewelry in a way that's literally requiring a stereo microscope at my house. And then I realized I no longer have any tweezers to tweeze this stuff apart with. How am I supposed to fix this delicate chain without squeezes? And place your micro greens.
+
+[1:03:42] Oh my god. Micro greens, micro everything. You know how I feel. Thanks for coming in, James. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:03:54] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long. Subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:04:12] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:04:35] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Paris Gourmet, delivering specialty foods and ingredients right to your restaurant, bakery, and bar. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. This year we're celebrating 10 years of food radio.
+
+[0:25] For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more. It's been 10 years and we're just getting started. Find us at heritageradio network.org. You know, whatever. From Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwick, Brrrr Brooklyn.
+
+[0:55] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Sus? Got Matt in the booth. How are you doing? Excellent.
+
+[1:00] But like compared to last week, I feel like there's like nobody here. It's like we have empty chairs. There's nothing. It's kind of nice. There's no was it last week that Jackie Molecules made a surprise visit?
+
+[1:10] Anyway, call in all of your uh cooking-related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And by the way, next week, uh, we will not be here. I will be in Chicago. Existing conditions is participating in the uh Chicago style.
+
+[1:29] I don't know whether it's called Bar Fight Chicago style or Chicago bar fight. I don't really know. But I'll be in Chicago and existing conditions will be I don't actually don't even know who's running the bar because such a huge chunk of existing conditions is gonna be uh hanging out in Chicago anyway. This is like this is like an anchor man situation where you exchange blows with other bartenders. I unfortunately no.
+
+[1:52] I mean, I would love to see like me get the crap beat out of myself. You would not. You would be the one. Yeah, you got it, man. You seem you've got crazy energy.
+
+[2:02] Well, yeah. I don't know. There's only so far that like, you know, crazy person can get you. There was a kid, I remember in college. That's true though.
+
+[2:11] He was crazy. Like when you when you when someone goes crazy, you just step away. You don't like really want to fight them. You know what I mean? Do not engage.
+
+[2:17] Do not engage. Like yeah, but it's like what Wee Pop told you that one time. So uh Weepop uh, or you know, Weepop Soupapipot, or Weepop Soupy Pot, depending on how you how he contracts his name, uh, from Bangkok, who is one of the uh original partners of Nomi Ku and our intern at the French culinary once told me, have I mentioned this on air before? But just say it quickly. All right, so uh most of you, if you look at your palm and you and you make like a little bit of a like a what do you call this?
+
+[2:45] If you bend it a little bit so you can see the lines in your palm, most of you going across your palm have a different line on the on the left and right that don't meet each other, right? I have a straight line all the way across my Well, so my mom always told me that either meant that I was suffering from some form of genetic uh retardation. Or I I was a monkey. It's called a simian crease. You can go look it up, it's called a simian crease.
+
+[3:09] So We Pop, our intern, uh, who I believe now has nightclubs in Bangkok, which is interesting. So we had a part of a song. What? What? No, One Night in Bangkok's a different song.
+
+[3:20] That's from Murray Head, and you hate that song. I do. That song is not about anything. That song's about playing chess. I don't know if you know that.
+
+[3:26] Uh now you have that song going through my head. But the uh Matt, you know this song, right? I actually don't. I don't think so. Uh excuse me, One Night in Bangkok makes the hard man humble.
+
+[3:36] Somewhere between despair and ecstasy. And that's about chess? Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Bangkok.
+
+[3:43] Anyway, I like I can't get I can't I'm not gonna get into it. Uh but now I can't think of anything. So anyway, so we pop just takes one look at it and goes, oh yeah. In uh he doesn't talk like this. Go, oh yeah, in Thailand, that means that uh uh someday you're gonna kill someone by accident.
+
+[4:00] I was like, how can like a line in your hand mean that someday you're gonna kill somebody by accident? We all know who that somebody's gonna be. What? Me. No.
+
+[4:09] Although, you know, I have a friend who it's always been said is going to kill me by accident. Maybe we pop got it backwards. There's a friend of mine from college who's gonna kill me by accident someday. Anyway. Uh, so call in all of your how do we even get it?
+
+[4:25] One question. So listen, Matt. After they ask their question, hang up on them because nobody has the balls to tell somebody to only ask one question. I mean, I gotta say it because I can't text you in this godforsaken hellhole. So I'm letting you know over the Here's my question.
+
+[4:41] Because we all know there's no internet in this in this box where we're working. What how is it that you're always searching your phone? Are you just looking at old crap? Is it is it so boring to you to have the radio program going? I write my diary.
+
+[4:54] She looks at whatever's cached on her phone. Oh my god. Is that what the kids are doing these days? They just cash a whole day's worth of reading onto their telephones. Okay.
+
+[5:03] Alright, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave and Nastasia. I'll follow uh Nastasia's rule and be a uh full on Zeta male. But I have two comments and one question, which hopefully qualifies. Um for a masa grinder, I've been using the Estrella, which is similar to the Corona and the Victoria.
+
+[5:20] I actually found that if you grind down the burrs so they have true flats on them, almost like uh a higher end coffee grinder, you can get full on tortilla ready masa using one grind pass through. Huh, and and and do you do it yourself or do you force some other idiot to do it? No, I do it myself. My friend has a uh full on machine shop at his home. Um so one of the burrs we were actually able to fixture and grind true flat almost on a uh, you know, like you would on a surface grinder.
+
+[5:49] Right. But then the other one, there's no good way to hold it unless we were to make a special jig or a tool just to fixture it. So we did that one just on a uh a decently flat plate with some sandpaper. But it looks like both of them can be done just with a plate and sandpaper or even just a semi-flat table. Um because there is some play in how the the burrs align.
+
+[6:08] So it kind of levels out anyway once you force something in between them. Right on it. The most important thing is to to get a true flat on the edges, because from the factory, um every tooth, if you want to think about it that way, has a high point to it. It comes to a peak. So it actually cogs when you tighten down and slips in between each tooth instead of being able to run on each other flat.
+
+[6:31] Huh. Well, the um what I meant by getting someone else to do it, I mean getting someone else to grind it, because it's still a bear, unless you got your friend at the machine shop to hook a motor up to it, which I've seen in in out. I've seen people hook up coronas to motors. Did you do that as well? Because it's still a pain.
+
+[6:45] Once even once you get it broken in, or do what you did, which is make it actually work, it's still it still is not the most fun to sit there grinding that thing. I agree with you on that. I did your recipe, I think it was 500 grams of dried corn, and then it produced uh somewhere around the range of eight hundred once it was uh nystomalized. Right. And that took under, I want to say under eight minutes.
+
+[7:08] It was it was worth, but it wasn't uh a dreadful time or anything like that. So for for home use, you know, I'm happy with it. Uh cool. Now uh so for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, uh when you make uh tortillas, you nixtomalize uh the corn, and you know, you're soaking it, uh you're you know, par cooking and soaking in calcium hydroxide. So you put you like you take a calcium hydroxide solution, aka cal, you cook it, uh partial you know, par cook it and then let it soak for whatever your amount of time you're gonna let it soak is, then you rinse, rub rinse, and then you you grind it, and that whole process is the difference between cornmeal and you know, uh like a cornmeal style thing versus a tortilla.
+
+[7:48] So it's completely different animal. It's like one of the world's most miraculous cooking processes. And I believe my post on it on uh cooking issues is still available. Is it is uh is cooking issues a Russian porn site now, or is it still good. It's still good?
+
+[8:00] All right. Uh and so the problem is is grinding it. So the what we're talking about is this category of grinders, which for better lack of a better word, we'll call them Corona. What's the brand that you had? It's uh Stray O, but it seems to be the same as the Corona and the Victoria.
+
+[8:14] Right. So these suckers are built, I believe, in Columbia, which is interesting because anyway, well, it's a too long a story to get into. But uh they're sandcasted, right? And you can see the sand casting, and I think over time, like the wooden blanks that they that they make the sand castings from, or however they do it, they really suck. I mean, they suck real bad.
+
+[8:36] And so uh, you know, the only and in the plates, when you put the so the way this grinder works is got uh, you know, the plate that's bolted onto the grinder itself, and then there's uh the rotating plate that fits over it, and that's what you adjust forward and backwards with the with the auger, just like kind of like a meat grinder, to adjust the the thing, but they don't get anywhere close to matching each other. Uh and it's just they're just phenomenally bad, such that I think it's intended that you sit there for like two years just sitting there and doing turning it and just grinding it down to nothing on itself, because that's the only way that's gonna get uh to work. So this is a good, it seems like a good uh how much time you think you someone would invest. Could they could they do it, could they do it just by flat rubbing on a on a table with uh with wet dry, or you think it wouldn't be uh good enough? Yeah, so the one bro that I did that way, um it was with wet dry, I think it was 100 or 120 grit, and it took under half an hour for for one side.
+
+[9:35] So, you know, up to the user if they're willing to invest that hour. But um, in terms of breaking it in through actually grinding corn or even dried rice or something, I noticed absolutely now wear after about 10 batches before grinding. And then the burrs themselves, I thought they would be soft, but we put a file to them, they're pretty hard. It's just uh must have been a quick cooling process for the casting. Right, right.
+
+[9:57] Uh you know the whole rice thing. They're hard. The whole rice thing, yeah, it doesn't do squat. Like, so I mean, I think it's just to have something running through while the burrs are rubbing against each other. And the other thing I think is is that it's probably a good idea to grind rice because you know, through something, uh just to clean it out, because these things come as pretty rough, rough castings.
+
+[10:19] Uh so you know, I think that's kind of part of it, but I agree that you know, I mean, you can see the cast green in this thing, and there are little dots and specks coming up off of the thing. I mean, they've just done a just a terrible job at finishing these things, which I guess you'd expect for the price they are. You know what I mean? It's the same, by the way, with cast iron pants, which we should get, you know, get back to. Cast iron pans, uh they all used to be, not they all, but like, you know, the higher end ones used to be sanded uh down uh to get rid of that casting grain uh on them, and they just make much better pans when they used to do that.
+
+[10:57] I have a set I have you know some old like hundred year old or maybe not a hundred, maybe they're 70 year old cast irons that I used to get them at thrift shops, and man, they're so much better than the current ones. I know a bunch of people have taken uh disc sanders to their cast iron uh and just you know, new cast iron and sanded it down a little bit and just gotten to that kind of flat surface, and it really makes a big difference. So I'll skip my next uh comment and just go right to the question. Um, in the food or cooking or even bartending world, are there any remaining great mysteries on kind of a larger scale? I know you mentioned the the elusive uh dirty and caramel, but uh it seems like more of a just a personal thing that that happened.
+
+[11:38] But are there any remaining huge mysteries in terms of why things happen or or how certain products are produced and things along that way? Huh, that's an interesting question. Well, there, you know, the the thing is that a lot of what is going on in cooking is I mean, it depends on what you mean by mystery. So, like from a from a scientific perspective, right? There's lots of stuff that we don't really know uh what's going on, right?
+
+[12:06] Especially on the nutrition side, we don't know squat, we don't know diddly squat, right? So there's like, you know, there's there's a whole range of stuff on the on the science side that hasn't been explored just because there's no real reason or economics behind uh exploring it. In terms of like finding new things to cook, I mean everybody at all times in history who've had uh you know enough energy, time and and enough of a surplus of food, and even if they don't, frankly, uh, have had, I think, a full range of culinary experience, right? So um and people different cultures are cooking wildly, wildly different in terms of what they're eating. Uh so I you know I can't see there being any logical stopping point.
+
+[12:52] I mean obviously nowadays, you know, because of the internet, because of globalization, uh, and because of the kind of interest in uh consuming all different kinds of things that um you know, especially in in you know higher higher end uh higher end like more wealthy uh circles have had over the past you know several decades uh and even longer you know the there's been what seems to be kind of an explosion of um different cooking ideas different um you know different dishes and in the past 20 years you have the explosion of kind of new technologies in cooking with uh low temperature and sous vide which you know I think is super interesting and and and important and so it's can seem like well is there anything else to to know and the and the fact of the matter is that you know that's what people thought in you know during the age of uh well whatever you want to call it I mean I know politically charged term but age of enlightenment I'm sure everyone's like well you know Newton's come up with the laws of physics and with calculus so I guess we're all set you know what I mean so it's like I think you never can know what the future brings and I think there's always going to be there's always going to be new mysteries to uncover. But you just don't know what they are until someone presents them to you. Right? Yep awesome. Thanks so much.
+
+[14:07] Alright, thank you. Uh all right. So you you uh cooking. You got you got another one on the air, actually. All right, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[14:15] What's up? Hey, uh hey Dave, this is uh Anthony Collin from Seattle. What's up? Hey, so I have a question. I was reading through the uh Warrenus cuisine on the your whole section on cooking C V and uh he recommends uh holding, if you can, um holding uh cut of protein for 120 for a couple of hours for some like tenderizing effects before actually throwing it in.
+
+[14:38] Um would that still be beneficial if I'm doing something like uh chuck roast at say 55, 56 for uh 48 hours, or should I just skip that uh 120? What's 120 in Celsius? I don't know. Let's see, look it up. Uh wait, so you're saying uh, oh, you know what this is all about?
+
+[14:58] So there's a lot of uh research. And so let me tell you how this all worked. Back in the day, everyone who had a science-oriented mind, while you're looking up what 120 is like everyone. What? 48.9.
+
+[15:15] Yeah, yeah. So in the in in the squarely in the danger zone, the real danger zone, by the way, not like the theoretical danger zone. Um so back in the day when uh everyone, and this includes Miravold, this includes you know, me, includes Wiley, includes Heston, includes, you know, you know, Grand Akees, includes everyone who was interested in this stuff. We were reading all the science papers, uh, presumably the Rokas, um, you know, you know, who wrote the first book on um C V cooking that I'm aware of, the first real one. Uh Bruno Gusseau.
+
+[15:48] We're all reading like the all of the literature on uh how meat works. And so uh you know, and we all read these uh books and studies that there were uh the this enzyme categories that what they say autalized meat that broke it down that caused protein denaturation and therefore tenderization, right? And uh they're like cal calpanes and calpa somethings, right? Is what they what they are is the is the actual uh enzymes that are there. And then you know, the online literature would say these enzymes are most active at blah X temperature.
+
+[16:26] And so then, you know, the assumption was well, if you hold something in that zone long enough, then you'll get a lot of extra tenderization out of um out of that. Now, uh does that actually make a difference in the end in your meat? I gotta say, I don't know. I I can't remember whether I ever ran those tests. I might have.
+
+[16:51] Um, you know, I I you know I was at the time when I was doing most of my preliminary research. I mean, I'll look at it again in the process of writing the book, but uh when I was doing most of my preliminary research, I was doing work for chefs and teaching chefs how to use these techniques, and there's no way on God's green earth I was gonna tell a chef to hold a piece of meat for uh you know a couple of hours in something that is so clearly the danger zone, and then ramp it up to a safe zone so that they could get the so the idea is that if you're in the kill if you're in the kill zone within your four hour limit, I guess is you know the the argument that you know you're gonna you're gonna be okay, but just so much can go wrong in a restaurant that there's there would be no way I would ever recommend doing that uh you know to someone who was doing this professionally. You know what I mean? There's no way I would ever recommend it. You know, I've seen Nastasia, for instance, people get the temperatures wrong and have things circulating at exactly the wrong temperature for many, many, many, many, many hours, right, Nastasia?
+
+[17:50] Yes. Yeah. So, and because the temperature. Oh my god, that Nastasia put something in at Fahrenheit for Celsius. So, in other words, 55 Celsius, and the circulator is set at 55 Fahrenheit, and then you and then used as a freaking doorstop.
+
+[18:09] So, like went literally used as a doorstop. So, like when I when I tell you that like when you're giving people instructions on stuff like this, I've very I almost always shy away from uh giving um from giving instructions that aren't as bulletproof as possible from a safety standpoint. Taste standpoint, you can kind of be a little more wiggle-waggle. You can give something somebody something that's not bulletproof as long as you warn them it's not bulletproof. But from a safety standpoint, you have to kind of go bulletproof on them because once anything can go wrong, it will.
+
+[18:41] Uh we just got fish bowled. I know, that was weird. This is the first time we've ever gotten fishbowled. What did they do? They looked in here with their hands.
+
+[18:49] With their hand over their uh so the second thing I'll say is that I don't know what kind of uh function those things have on collagen, right? So just because something breaks down the muscle fibers doesn't mean it breaks down the collagen. And 99.9% of what you perceive as toughness in meat is not the muscle fibers, it's the connective tissue. And and I need people to understand this, and this is what I'm gonna be trying to figure out when I'm writing the book, how to get people to understand this. When you're doing low temperature cooking, or when you're doing high temperature cooking, there is a fundamental difference in what it means to tenderize, i.e., break down the muscle fibers themselves.
+
+[19:31] Broken down muscle fibers almost always present themselves as being mushy or fibrous. So if you've had something that's been um, you know, cooked too long using low temperature and you chew on it, it's like it breaks up into fiber and forms like a fibrous like cud pill in the in your mouth, right? And so it almost you know what I'm talking about. You've had that where it forms that kind of fibrous ball, and then as you if you keep chewing it, right? Which, you know, you are I'm not one of these mastication freaks who chews like a hundred times, obviously not.
+
+[20:02] How fast do I eat Nastasia? So fast. So fast. It's disgusting. Nastasia has been like, you know, disgusted, and she still doesn't forgive me for how fast I ate at Jiro uh dreams of sushi, even though that was not my fault because I get to eat at whatever speed I want to, people.
+
+[20:14] It's my mouth, my right. Anyway. I can't believe you're willingly wading back into this. I'm not going to. I'm gonna leave it there.
+
+[20:20] But the point is that if you sit there and chew something that's been uh where the muscle fibers have been broken down by um by however they're done, uh, it gets this kind of fibrous kind of mushy nature, which I don't appreciate. But if you then cook uh, you know, if you then cook uh the collagen, that provides a different kind of tenderization. And I don't know how well those enzymes work on breaking down collagen. I have to research it. So a long way of saying your results may vary, but I don't know how much of a difference it would make.
+
+[20:50] If it made a giant difference, I would guess that everybody would do it. Paris gourmet delivers the finest specialty imported and local foods directly to chefs. For over 35 years, Paris Gourmet has sourced specialty foods from around the world. Their Meadowlands headquarters services, the New York Tri-State area. Paris Gourmet delivers Bermont butters, cacao Noel chocolates, ravi fruit pureees, cuisine tech ingredients, and bon pâtissier viennoiserie to your kitchen.
+
+[21:23] Paris Gourmet brings the world to your doorstep. They're close when professionals need them most. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more.
+
+[21:37] My name is Thari Kamen. And I'm Leah Kurtz. And together we host Food Without Borders here on HRN. Immigrants make our food system vibrant, diverse, and delicious. Each week, we invite a guest to talk about how food connects them to their past as we explore what it's like to be an immigrant in the US today.
+
+[21:57] You can find Food Without Borders wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radio Network.org. We have a parade of callers, so there's an there's yet another on the air if you're ready. Alright, Cavalcade. What's up, caller? Hi, this is Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon.
+
+[22:14] Ooh. I've never been to Jacksonville, Oregon. How close is that to Corvallis? Uh, it's it's on the border of California, actually, basically. Oh, so you're you're you're close to the Redwoods?
+
+[22:25] You're close to Jedi Smith? Well, yeah, more or less. Yeah. God's country. On the I5 Parrot corridor.
+
+[22:33] Jedi Smith Park in California is one of my favorite places anywhere. I love that place. Oh, yeah. Absolutely beautiful. So uh majestic.
+
+[22:42] Yeah. Um, speaking of trees, I've got uh Douglas fir on my property. Nice. I was calling about how to use Douglas fir tips. I know people make a tea out of 'em.
+
+[22:52] I was wondering if there's other things people do. I you know, so interesting. So uh Bobby Murphy, our uh beverage director in existing conditions, we didn't get uh fur tips and Doug Fur Tips. We have we bought six hundred dollars worth of spruce tips. And six hundred dollars worth of spruce tips can fit in my backpack, which is disconcerting.
+
+[23:15] You would think six hundred dollars worth of spruce tips could not fit in my backpack, but you'd be wrong. Um you know, I've never worked with I've never worked with Doug Fur. So you know, with this one, the question was, you know, Nastasia and I have uh what what what what what variety of tree did we distill for that party? It could have been a Doug fur because Doug furs are used as Christmas trees, but I don't think we did a Doug fur. Nastasia and I once years and years and years ago bought a Christmas tree and then distilled it.
+
+[23:43] The whole tree. Is that MTV? Yeah, that was MTV. Uh yeah, we were like, uh how many put was it like 1200 people at that party, 1500 people at that party? And we and stupid.
+
+[23:55] This is like when I was like uh dumber, dumb, dumb, dumber, which if you can believe I was at once dumber than I am now. I was like, we're gonna distill. We're gonna distill the Nobody cared. Nobody gave a rat behind. We distill we distilled, we sat there, I don't know how many, like it was like a look over a day, Nastasi and I sat there distilling a Christmas tree.
+
+[24:17] First of all, we had to walk into uh the French Culinary Institute like an idiot with Christmas trees on our back. Then break it down. And everybody's sitting there cracking wise. Because everyone, when they pass you, whenever you're doing something non-conventional anywhere. Everyone walks past you if you're in a public-ish area, and they think no one else has made a wise crack about you.
+
+[24:38] And so then everyone takes their chance at doing a new wise crack. So Nastasia, of course, is less able to withstand this stuff without putting this the scowl on her face. So Nastasi is sitting there, probably with her Christmas hat. I don't know, which by the way, she located people. Here's another fishbowl twice.
+
+[24:57] What is it? Anyway, uh, so then um we're sitting there it with like angry faces, shredding a Christmas tree. Oh yeah, I remember this. Yeah, shredding a Christmas tree, and then stuffing the needles into the rotov app and just running the rotovap constantly, like for a day and a half. And then get this live carbonating.
+
+[25:18] I had built carbonation rigs for uh adapters for EC units. Wait, do you remember what the one joke that everybody kept saying over and over was? No, what I'm guessed the grinch is blown, you know. Oh my god. Oh my god.
+
+[25:29] Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Oh jeez, oh my god. It's just like making fun of somebody's name. They've had their name their whole life. You can't make fun of their name in a way they haven't heard before.
+
+[25:41] The 30th person who like makes a wisecrack about you doing X, Y, or Z, like one of the other people's already made that wisecrack. You know what I mean? That's why if you're gonna wisecrack someone, only do it if you have the an actual something new that they couldn't possibly have thought of before. That's why a lot of the time, Nastasia, I I just say something that's completely off the wall because at least like well, they've never heard it before. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:02] I mean, at least they've never heard that before, but I was told by somebody, this is a little off topic, that Nastasi and I sometimes shock people with what we say. I was told by our PR representative for Booker and Dax that we sometimes say things that not by the way, in it, not in a me too or sexual way, just completely inappropriate and kind of like, right? Yeah, I don't know what it is. Anyway, back to Doug Fur. So uh at the bar we have these spruce tips, and we're doing just like you said, we're making a tea.
+
+[26:33] So I've only ever either made a water-based tea or an alcoholic uh distillant from them. Now, I don't know how well, I mean, I could imagine many things like uh Doug Fur ice cream would be obviously delicious. Do I know whether or not there's gonna be a problem with the milk? No. I mean, but this is worth a test.
+
+[26:51] If you have Doug Doug fur on your property. Female Morgan's dream. Also, well, he did Doug for ice. I don't know, but it sounds like something. The other thing I don't know about Doug Fur is I don't know how long the needles last on Doug Fur.
+
+[27:02] Are you talking shoots, like fresh, uh fresh shoots? Yeah, I take the green, you know, when it's just bright green, just budding out. Yeah, so for those of you that deal with conifers, like when you're walking through the forest on and it's around the time that they're flushing fresh, like just go ahead and do yourself the favor of tasting. The old ones are relatively flavorless, and the flavor they do have is very, very harsh. And you could tell by the color green unless unless you're a complete nin cow poop.
+
+[27:30] You can tell by the color of green whether you're dealing with a fresh uh shoot. And the fresh shoots are usually like much more fun, much more interesting, much brighter. Um, so like I would see whether or not they mess up milk. I mean, I think there's probably a good chance they would mess up milk, like a decent chance that they'll mess milk up. But I I could see like a delicious uh sorbet, or I could really see a delicious ice cream out of it.
+
+[27:52] Um, you know, I don't know how much uh I mean, there's no point in burning that stuff because it's just gonna burn. I don't know it's gonna give anything good, but I would try that. We we've been doing uh steeps. We've we've tried um uh regular steeps, we've tried uh rapid infused steeps. The rapid infused, I don't know how much of a difference it made in the in the needles, and we've also tried uh pressure cooking to get like a like to get it out quick but at a higher temperature, and they all yield different but uh interesting results.
+
+[28:25] The one thing I'll say is that when you're dealing with um extracts from like uh different conifers, the one of the issues that you get is uh once you've been tasting it for a while, you become a little kind of inured to the flavor of it, and so you tend to overdose. So, whatever you think is a good dose, I would then wait a minute and try like literally half of that dose and see whether or not you like it better, right? Because some people are repelled by overly uh resinous things. Like nostasi, you don't really like super resin y things, right? Yeah, some people are repelled by over-resinous things, and I find that sometimes uh less can be enough for people who are pine lovers or you know, conifer lovers, but uh at the same time, you know, can bring people who would otherwise be repelled uh into the fold of liking it.
+
+[29:18] But I think an ice cream now that I'm thinking about it, I think ice cream would be delicious. One other thing is that do you have sugar pines that far north? Uh not close by anyway. Yeah. I wish I had a source of sugar pine cones.
+
+[29:32] Yeah, they're huge, they're but not close. They're delicious. For the ice cream, would you actually steep it in the milk? If it won't break, if it wouldn't break. So like if you have a vacuum machine, what I would do is I would I would throw the I would like like rough chop the uh shoots and then I would throw them in the in a in a bag and suck as much of a vacuum as you can.
+
+[29:55] Get the milk really cold, put us uh small or cream or whatever, put a small amount of it in the bag. You might actually be better off adding some sugar first because the sugars will sugar will help stabilize the milk against breaking. So you know, like large amounts of sugar do a lot to stabilize milk against breaking, uh, which I discovered by accident. That's I've I've talked about milk syrup on the air before, but you know, we can make a uh a stable milk syrup that won't break even in a shaken acid drink by stabilizing with a lot of sugar before you add the acid. Um so you might need some sugar if it's gonna break, but I would put it in a vacuum bag.
+
+[30:31] You need to leave a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of space because nothing foams quite as well as milk does, even when it's real cold. So, you know, but you suck a little bit of a vacuum on it, or even you know, uh you know, put a non-foaming thing with the shoots, suck a hard vacuum on it to inject liquid in, and then add the milk and uh milk and or cream and sugar and/or eggs if you want to do it all at once into the bag with it to cold infuse. Uh and I think cold infusion or even warm infusion might be the way to go. I pretty sure I've I think you have a good chance that it will curl and break if you go like let's say if you were gonna just make an on glaze base with it and then strain it out later, you know, which you know you're cooking at 82 or 83 degrees Celsius for like 10-15 minutes. I mean, that'll infuse it fast as a mother, might break it.
+
+[31:19] Again, we're the test because the egg egg yolks are also stabilizing it and and sugar is stabilizing it. So you might get a stable thing there, but don't you think that would taste delicious? Doesn't everyone think that would taste delicious, Doug for ice cream? Sounds good to me. Yeah.
+
+[31:32] Absolutely. Uh cool. Um let us know how it works. Yeah, yeah. We have one more on the on the phone.
+
+[31:39] All right, Claire, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, it's Claire. Hey Claire, how are you doing? We got fishbowl again. What the hell is this?
+
+[31:44] My Claire. Am I wearing clothes? Are you wearing clothes? Why are people looking into this studio? You're not wearing clothes, you're calling in.
+
+[31:53] You're one of those people who like writes Yelp reviews without putting their clothes on. If you're gonna write a Yelp review, have the decency to put on pants before you sit down at the keyboard. I don't think you have the right to criticize someone else if you if you can't even bother to get dressed before you write the criticism. Okay. You don't think so?
+
+[32:11] Sure. You don't see what I'm saying? You just I don't know, is it? What's your question? I don't know.
+
+[32:19] I'm confused. Oh, you're talking to Stoff. Well, anyone who'll listen. I'm just saying, like I love writing Yelp reviews, but I always am dressed when I write them. Good.
+
+[32:31] Good. Because someone, someone has worked real hard and they have to get dressed to go to the restaurant to make your food. The least you can do when you're talking about their hard work on your computer is to have the decency to at least pretend like you're taking it seriously. You know what I mean? I agree.
+
+[32:51] Yeah, go ahead. What do you got for us? Okay, so I heard that you are a bit of a wedding speech aficionado. What? And it just so happens that I'm officiating my first wedding this weekend in Santa Barbara.
+
+[33:08] And I'm really struggling with my speech. So I wanted to know if you had any advice. Well, when you get to me, my age, Claire. Uh well, I mean, I like I've seen, I seen many a shall we say, interesting wedding speech, but since almost every wedding I've been to has been friends or family, I'm not really at liberty to talk over the radio of of uh what they are. I've never seen like what was the speech that Steve Yusemi gave in that movie?
+
+[33:35] I don't know. Anyway, but you're actually officiating, so yeah Yeah. I mean, I think that like don't guild the lily. I mean, I don't really have any cooking related advice to this, but I'm saying, like, you know, pretty much people are there to get married, right? And what are you some sort of like fake reverend church of the poison mine in the state of uh California?
+
+[33:55] Um I wouldn't say that it's fake. I'm a reverend licensed by the universal life church. What the heck is universal life? They're the people who license the fake reverence. You don't know that?
+
+[34:06] Yeah, but what does it mean? Like, is there any belief associated with it? They're non-denominational. Uh what okay, first of all, non-denominational, does that mean any denomination or non-denominational? Or is it Christian?
+
+[34:21] No. So it's not just non-denomination. Who cares? What give advice for the speech? Well, what I'm saying is is I don't even know what this means.
+
+[34:28] Like, why like why do they even do this? Why don't they just why doesn't the city government or the just say, pay me 50 bucks and you can do the wedding? Like, why do they need to have this fake church stuff? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, just you know, Claire, are you are you religious in any sense of the word?
+
+[34:44] Or do you have any sort of religion to you? She does. Yeah. Anyway. I mean, whatever.
+
+[34:50] Not like not like I'm like a lot of different things. Let me tell you something about real reverence. So I was. What the hell? I am not religious, but I was married by, you know, my wife's uncle, who was a real, honest to God, not Southern, but Baptist minister, right?
+
+[35:10] At his church. And let me tell you something about Reverends, ministers, priests, rabbis, whomever. Here's what they have done that you haven't done. A crap ton of weddings. Like a crap ton.
+
+[35:26] Anyone that controls any sort of house of worship has done a boatload of weddings. They are practiced. I'll never forget what uh what uh my uncle Ken said to me right before he got married. Dave cried. It was so powerful.
+
+[35:41] I cried after, I cried after the way. Let me tell you, for those of you that have not been married before, like it is more powerful than you'd think it's gonna be once you get to the back. I mean, like, that's the whole thing, right? Everyone's like, I'm not religious, man to man to marry. Like bee-be-be-be-boo.
+
+[35:53] What does it mean? And then when you actually get married in front of all your friends and family, you're like, oh wow, that's you know, not what I expected. But what he said to me beforehand was he's like, he's like, guys, this is going to take 17 minutes. He's like, I don't care like how many vows you have, I don't care like what you're doing. He's like, it's gonna be 17 minutes.
+
+[36:13] And it was 17 minutes. You know why he knows this? Because he's done it eight bajillion times, right? He knows he knows like where to stand, he knows, and during rehearsal, by the way, rehearsal for you is gonna be especially important, right? You know, like you know, like where to direct people.
+
+[36:31] Everyone, everyone who's not been married before has all these like weird knucklehead ideas of what they want to have happen at their wedding. It's just like Nastasia. This actually relates to cooking. When you throw a party, right? When you throw a party and you have chefs and you have all these different players, each who have their own minds, right?
+
+[36:48] And like all of the freaking bridesmaids and all of the freaking groomsmen or whatever they call them nowadays, like the flower people, the ring bearers, the guests, Claire, tell them about the ring thing. Oh, well, they all have their own ideas, right? And so you think in your mind, I'm gonna organize it exactly like I wanna be. And you can't. And it's the same thing with a party.
+
+[37:12] You have to be the as the officiant, you are the iron fist of this wedding. And you during the during the rehearsal, you better keep everyone in freaking line and make them do what they're supposed to do at the freaking event so that the bride doesn't look back later and be like, that was a crap show. What the hell was I thinking having Claire be the officiate at my wedding? No one could hear what I was saying. The lines were flubbed.
+
+[37:39] There was feedback on the microphone. There was so much wind in my back because we were outside. No one could see what's going on, and my hair was in my face. That's what's gonna freaking happen. Because you know why you haven't done a wedding before.
+
+[37:51] So do the research. Do the rehearsal and take the rehearsal seriously. I'm doing two rehearsals. I'm doing one on Thursday and one on Friday. That's good.
+
+[38:01] What about the rings? What do you got for the rings? Okay, so this is cool. You're gonna like this. So the couple, you might know them.
+
+[38:09] They when the people, it's a standing reception, so we're weaving a rope to make like lines where people will stand, and then right before the rings, I'm gonna say, You'll notice there's a rope at your feet. Please pick it up, and then we're gonna string the wedding band through the rope up to the front, starting at the back. This is gonna be a nightmare. A logistical nightmare. I know.
+
+[38:33] We're gonna have to rehearse it, and I'm staging people throughout the crowd who know what we're doing. I'm not giving it, I'm not spoiling anything, but I think it's kind of funny that you're are you literally in Santa Barbara? Yeah, right now. No, no, that's where the wedding's gonna be. Oh, yeah.
+
+[38:50] Okay. Santa Barbara, where they have the pier and the beach. No. No, it's at a ranch. Remember?
+
+[38:56] No, but that's where Santa Santa Barbara is on the water, right? Has a pier on the beach. So there's a movie out now by uh Peel. You might be familiar with it called, and I'm not giving anything away about the movie, called Us. And interestingly, hands across, it's in Santa Barbara, is where it takes place.
+
+[39:11] And Hands Across America, where everyone's holding hands and and like creating lines, forms very large in this. So I hope that everyone enjoys everyone thinking about the movie Us while they are uh at the wedding. Oh god. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hope that doppelgangers dressed in red with scissors show up, because that will be sick.
+
+[39:31] Sick! You're really raining on my parade. I'm gonna send you my speech and you can give me your feedback. Listen, keep it short and simple. Do they love each other or is this some sort of joke?
+
+[39:43] As I've said a million times. For real? I think people get trapped into getting married. Did you know this? I I don't think this is the case.
+
+[39:53] This is not food related, but I think the same thing happens like with partners, with restaurants, with dishes. It's all the same thing. You go down a road, and once you've gone down a road more than about 50 or 100, hard to turn around. Like the ship of life is big and it's hard to turn it. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:10] And so like maybe she should start with that. So listen, I know you guys have been at weddings where all you people in the audience are like, you know, this is not gonna last more than a year. This is not one of those weddings, or maybe it is. I don't know. Oh my god.
+
+[40:25] No, it's not. I've never been in a wedding where I've thought that. Let me tell you something else. Let me tell you something else. Certain people who do weddings are known for uh, as we say, doing weddings that stick.
+
+[40:38] Oh. Ooh. I think I'm gonna be that type of efficient. Well, we'll see. You know, maybe the church of the poison mind will revoke your uh will revoke your license to marry if you don't have a certain batting average.
+
+[40:50] The other thing I'll say is that, like, I mean, these are friends of yours, so you know, but like a good bit of like talking to them like beforehand is also of are you sure? Are you really, really sure? I've had friends who've called it off at the last minute. Really? Oh yeah.
+
+[41:02] I've had friends who called it off at the last minute. Oh yeah. Oh my god. This is not cooking really. You know how my you know how my theory, my theory is is that there is no, there is no more other than being pregnant, right?
+
+[41:15] Where you know that like it's not permanent, it's a s it's a temporary status. Fiancé is the only other such thing. Oh my god. And it either ends in marriage or it ends in not marriage to the same person, right? So it's like everyone is in a time of life reevaluation when they're when they're engaged.
+
+[41:32] Oh my gosh. Yeah, true story. We can all agree that the day was the right person to call. We gotta close. We've got to do that.
+
+[41:38] Okay, thanks. Good luck with that. Uh well, we had a lot of questions written in that we didn't get a chance to answer. Do we have any time to do any? Four minutes of choose.
+
+[41:54] Uh choose. I you know I hate cheesing. All right, here's some questions. Joe, uh Joe Ankowicz wrote in on uh Polish cooking. Hey, I remember a while back you were talking about exploring Polish food and taking a deep dive into Polish cuisine.
+
+[42:07] I live in Greenpoint, and besides cooking and eating the blood sausage at Poland Market, uh, I'm still not that well versed in Polish food beyond the very basics. Uh, do you have any uh dish interesting dishes or cookbooks? I don't, I mean, I I like I like uh Zurek, the uh, you know, fermented rye soup. I and I like all the weird mushrooms that they have. Although uh my you know, one of my uh the museum's friend and my friend Lukasz, who's Polish from Poland, like he's like, all of these mushrooms are no good.
+
+[42:32] Like Poland, Poland is apparently the land of mushrooms, but it's not the same unless you go there. Maybe sometime we can have Lukasz or some other Polish food expert on, because I'm interested in learning more about it. Answer Joe, I don't know enough to give you information, but I would like to. Um Richard McDonough wrote in on rotovaps, who uh you know you might know him as a mood therapist in Vietnam. We might go to we might go to Vietnam someday.
+
+[42:55] Nastasia wants to, by the way, uh Nastasi probably doesn't want me to get into. I was I was thinking I was gonna sit down here and do a rant on building stuff in China. Which one? About your business partner. Which Don Lee.
+
+[43:10] No, I'm not gonna say that on that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that on the air. Well, my partner here at the bar is Don Lee, and we're thinking about going into business with this new guy called called uh his name, his name is Dong Li, and uh he's from Shenzhen. And so, like Nastasia thinks it's funny that we could have these two different businesses where you know you're partnering with someone with very similar names.
+
+[43:35] Uh but the the thing is not even the well, I'm not gonna say what you said. So, like then uh the other thing is though that like literally like Nastasi and I just had this heartbreaking like couple of days where uh this factory in China wanted us to hand them, I swear to God, 92,000 US dollars with no guarantee of making us a product. Literally, Nastasi and I were like, we'll fly out there and make an agreement with you. They're like, nope, we won't talk to you until you hand us $92,000. That's that's what our.
+
+[44:14] I don't know what you're talking about. With Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks was in a pirate movie? Yeah, the Somali Empire movie. The real life pirate one.
+
+[44:22] Oh, yeah. And by the way, that's why I hate pirates. Like, that's what real pirates are like. Everyone's like, oh, pirates, pirates. I hate pirates.
+
+[44:29] Um can you recommend uh can you expand more in condenser efficiency than the required amount of cooling capacity advisable, say minus 10, minus 20. Uh, rotoVap salespeople don't get me, me meaning uh Richard, uh, wanting to go below zero or even plus ten. This is a long answer. We gotta go. Say we'll get to it next week.
+
+[44:47] We really gotta go. Alright, we'll get into it. Uh we'll get into it next week. Uh we got uh from a uh how do you think you pronounce uh how do you think we pronounce their name? Frieza?
+
+[44:59] Freeze uh Undini wrote in about soap. We had a discussion where I don't know where we got into it last week on soap. People wanted to know the way you bathe. I I don't I'm not gonna get back into it, but uh sent us uh Tom Friedman in 1995 uh did a sculpture of short and uh curlies uh on a soap bar arranged in a spiral pattern. And so they this was brought to our attention, which is horrifying.
+
+[45:27] Uh Aaron Morgan, who called about who wrote in about the milk, said we're gonna get a lot a lot of milk for sale in Oklahoma. Fresh coward goat. Let us know if you did anything fun. Uh, next week, or not two weeks from now, I'm gonna get to uh the Dragon's Beard question we had. I had an interesting one.
+
+[45:43] Oh, Nepalis. Matt Matthew Sanders wrote about Napalis. I have a lot to say about um Nopalis and Slime, but I guess we'll have to get to it in two weeks on Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts.
+
+[46:11] If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com slash heritage. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebration happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[46:38] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[47:05] Want to be part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Paris Gourmet, delivering specialty foods and ingredients right to your restaurant, bakery, and bar. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. Coming this May from Heritage Radio Network, the surprising stories of how artists, activists, and entrepreneurs collide in one special Brooklyn community that's changing faster by the day. I am 28 years old. I live in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:31] When I moved to Bushwick, when I moved to Brooklyn, I chose Bushwick randomly. We recently opened up in Bushwick. All over Bushwick. Bushwick. Brooklyn, Bushwick.
+
+[0:41] This is Bushwick Podcast, a series that takes you behind the scenes of how people in kitchens, shops, and countless other community spaces create New York City's most dynamic neighborhood. Each week, we step into the journeys that define Bushwick and break down the forces competing to shape its future. These are local stories like you've never heard before. Join us this May wherever you get your podcast. From Robert's Petri and Bushwick Brooklyn!
+
+[1:26] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hey Nostas. Good. Good Matt in the booth. How are you doing?
+
+[1:31] I'm doing great. Yeah, calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So what was this Bushwick show you were pushing uh before our show, Matt? Uh it's like a like a hyperlocal podcast about the neighborhood.
+
+[1:46] Alright, I'm gonna ask you a question. So, like the music was some sort of like Hill Street Blues, like like sad, like definitely, definitely someone's getting over some sort of terrible traumatic loss, and they're listening to some sort of like not I can't quite be up e upbeat yet kind of music. Is that what the vibe you're getting off the music? That was the vibe I was getting off the music. Is that the vibe of this neighborhood?
+
+[2:07] Uh that that that tuning noise is Nastasia Lopez messing with her mic. I'm not gonna touch the mic. Not gonna take it, not gonna take it. Um Zing. And we're there.
+
+[2:25] Um he tries to elicit the feels on the podcast. I guess that's what he's doing with the music too. Yeah, yeah. So you're saying that the feel of Bushwick is somehow like sad, but hoping it will be better in the future. Ding ding ding.
+
+[2:40] Um maybe you should consult on the music with him. He might he might have he might have I don't know. Yeah. Anyway. It could be a misfire.
+
+[2:48] No, I mean, it's fine. It's it's it's well made. It's just like, you know, usually if you're trying to get someone to tune in, either it's like dun dun dun dun dun dun, or it's like, you know, you know, I don't know, something more, you know, kind of hey, you know? You know what I'm saying? Anyway.
+
+[3:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, I I I edited out the ripping guitar solo that comes later. That was your mistake. You gotta leave in the ripping guitar solo. My bad.
+
+[3:13] What's your favorite uh 1980s theme song? My favorite 1980s themes? You can do 70s, 80s, or 90s. Uh Night Rider came to mind, but that seems wrong. I would have to revisit.
+
+[3:27] There's a there's a rap song that samples Night Rider, but I forget what it is. It's a hip hop song that samples Night Rider. That I want to hear. Yeah, yeah. Uh I don't know.
+
+[3:36] Like my classics, I think we've discussed this. I think Sanford and Sun, excellent. Excellent. Uh Rockford Files, excellent. Excellent.
+
+[3:44] And you would like those Nastasia. No words in them for me to talk about the stories. Yeah. I mean, my actual favorite is the X-Files theme song, which is still like gives me chills to this day, I think. Yeah.
+
+[3:54] That's because of the content of the show, not the song. Here's a here's Nastasio. I don't watch TV. I don't know what a theme song is. No, that's not true.
+
+[4:00] What's your favorite theme song? A theme song is like a piece of music that plays early on in a television program. It sort of like marks the the program that you want has started. Yeah, what do you what do you what do you like? I don't know.
+
+[4:13] I don't know. I gotta think on it. Yeah? Yeah. Alright.
+
+[4:17] Um are you calling? Well, what? I don't know. We have a caller and I'm checking to see that they're gonna be able to do it. Listen, they're going to answer they're gonna ask one question.
+
+[4:26] Oh, you hear that caller. Nastasia is going to actually try to be the hammer today. Here's how it works, by the way. Like I tell her to be the hammer, and then whenever she is the hammer, I feel bad about it. Yeah.
+
+[4:36] I'm like, be nice. Yeah. And so Nastasia's like, you can't have it both ways, you jerk. Oh, you should tell them about your new emoji. Uh we should not.
+
+[4:43] And uh caller on the air. Uh no, their connection was real bad. I had them call back. Hold on. Alright.
+
+[4:49] Yeah, so Nastasia can talk about the new. So every once in a while. We are in a the quarterly boondoggle right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A serious one.
+
+[4:58] Like, so uh I don't know if you can still buy tickets to this. I won't mention names, but we have to do this event next week where I said in advance, Nastasia. What did I say in advance? It's gonna be a Cordal U. Yeah, Cordal U is is uh is uh you know book or speak for Cluster F.
+
+[5:15] And uh, and lo and behold, it is going to be an am it's gonna be They were like what what was your text? Oh no, it was Rebecca's text. Um they didn't order us anything. Yeah, they so months ago they're like, it's absolutely critical. This is by the way, people who do events.
+
+[5:32] I gotta be on the phone with them, and they're the reason I had to crawl through the trunk of my car, because by her car she means the zip car. But listen, like uh she accidentally she left the trunk open, but it already locked the keys in the car. Is that what happened to me? But because of the conference call. You climbed into the trunk, ripped the back seat off, went back into the car.
+
+[5:52] Yeah, anyway. So here's what happens. Uh, for those of you that actually like, you know, work for a living, like make food or drink, and someone asks you to be in an event at an event, if they say to you, they're gonna here's what's gonna happen. You're trying to work, right? Because that's what you do for a living, work, and then uh they're like, we have an event.
+
+[6:09] We know it's like four months from now. But we need we need the menu right now. We need to know everything that you're gonna buy. We need it right now. So you find figure out like you stop what you're doing, you stop the fact, everything's on fire, service is a nightmare.
+
+[6:23] Like, five people just quit, but you drop all of that, right? As I like to say, you you you have the baby in your hands and you drop it into that burning trash can to take care of their stupid problem that's four months in the video. Oh my god, they need it so and and oh my god, it's gonna be so hard getting Okay, one, you know they're gonna order the wrong stuff. You know they're gonna order the wrong stuff, but they won't let you order your own stuff and then just reimburse you for it. As soon as they won't let you do that, people walk away.
+
+[6:51] Walk away. Because here's what happens when they ask you four months in advance, I guarantee you that little football is being handed off to at least 12 different people, and one of them, one of them, is gonna drop it. So we went through all this nightmare trying to figure out our freaking list of stuff we were gonna make for this event. Three-day event. We're figuring out all this stuff, right?
+
+[7:11] Three days. Three-day event. Don't even get me started. Don't even get me started. So we're we're making this stuff, and I'm like, oh my god, I waste all of this time that I could have been doing anything else, beating my head against the wall, shoving like slivers of bamboo underneath my fingernails.
+
+[7:26] Anything would have been more pleasurable than dealing with them at that moment. And then on a conference. Kim Cobb's call yesterday. It's coming up Monday. What do they say, Nastasia?
+
+[7:34] They say we don't know what you're doing. Yeah. What? You didn't order the product. What event?
+
+[7:42] What event? You didn't order it? So they they ordered nothing. They ordered nothing. Nothing.
+
+[7:47] Nothing. And I was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just like your machines, your machines. So like, I'm like, I need to clean.
+
+[7:56] I need this is also happens. You're asking me to show up and demonstrate a piece of equipment that makes food. Do you have access to running water? Yeah, the bathroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:06] And like, I'm not walking into a bathroom and rinsing out spinzall rotors while people are washing the poop off their hands. That's a no-fly. That is not gonna happen, right? And and four months ago, they were so adamant that we could not buy anything, that they had to order everything, right? So it's turned into such a nightmare that I was like, listen, listen.
+
+[8:29] This is gonna be great content for your Instagram. I was like, listen, listen. Is anyone going to search my am I gonna have some sort of full body cavity search when I'm entering and leaving the venue? They're like, huh? I'm like, well, what if, what if, right?
+
+[8:46] Stuff just magically appears that I've made at my real honest to God bar where we know how to work for a living, right? And then I just take the raw product that you haven't yet ordered and is not gonna be right, and bring it back to the bar in my backpack. They're like, ah, yeah. They were like, what'd you say? We were at listening.
+
+[9:02] Yeah, anyway. Nightmares. Nightmares. Anytime someone asks you that far in advance, pay attention because they aren't. Yeah.
+
+[9:10] Caller? Caller. You're on the air. One question. Yeah, hey.
+
+[9:16] How you doing? I'm good. I was wondering if you have any suggestions or ways to look into any different for roasting cocoa nib versus the whole beans. Because most of the stuff online is about roasting the whole beans. Yeah, geez, I don't know.
+
+[9:39] I mean, the main thing with roasting beans is uh obviously getting an even, you know, well, I guess if you don't want it even, you don't want it even, but getting an even profile throughout. I don't know anyone that roasts the nibs, and 99.9% uh aren't they already are you buying raw? I thought they already roasted and then cracked them into nibs. No, you can get raw nibs. I mean, I don't want to offend anyone, but 99.9, I would just order the uh I would go to like I forget the name of the place, it's like chocolate alchemy or something like this.
+
+[10:11] Um you could find it that way. They will sell whole raw cacao beans. I would do that. 99.9% of nibs are, and no offense, chocolate people, straight garbage. The like garbage, like the stuff that they're not willing to put into their chocolate is like what they're selling as nibs.
+
+[10:30] 99%. And it's true, maybe I've only tasted like, you know, 15 different brands of nibs, but with the exception of Valrona, which sells a high-quality nib, I'm not gonna say it's as uh as good as the stuff that they put into their fantastic chocolate. I like it. I think for a larger chocolate manufacturer, I think Valverona does an excellent job. If you disagree, come fight me.
+
+[10:53] But like the uh, but uh their nibs are good enough for me to use, at least in with uh infusions, where most of them are just kind of like wretched, like burnt bitter tasting things. Now, uh I would go, uh it's been years, like on the order of five or six years since uh I've dealt with it, but um, I believe it's called chocolate alchemy, and there's a couple other websites now where they'll supply whole uh beans. Uh and the good thing about that is that they I think they have a tighter control over the quality than if you're just buying unspecified nibs from bulk nib supplier.net okay. Um but no, I don't know anything about roasting the nibs if they if they come raw. Um Neil wrote in from uh Los Angeles, where by the way, Nastasi and I are going to Los Angeles when we're doing what you tell them what we're doing.
+
+[11:47] Why don't you face into the mic instead of doing your zappos? She has been very on mic today so far. Well, yeah, except for she's literally sitting there while I'm talking, asking her questions, looking up, she's the rudest, rudest, rudest co-host in the world. Like 45 minutes, you need to focus on what we're doing. She can't do it.
+
+[12:05] She would do it if you could be interesting for 45 minutes today. Oh we're going to LA. Oh, I told them that. What are we doing in LA? Uh the 27th through the 31st.
+
+[12:16] And what are we doing while we are there? Nastasia. Oh my god. That house has a lot of reference. Okay, this is how this works.
+
+[12:25] You listen to what we're doing and you tell them what we're doing. We're going to Harvard and Stone. We're making apple heads. And we are making cocktails, one of which will include Personally Handmade by Nastasia, Applehead Doll Garnishes, as featured on her Instagram stories a couple weeks ago. In yours.
+
+[12:41] Was it also featured on my stories? Okay. And uh if you're very nice, Nastasia, if you say something nice about the apple head, she might take her dead to me look off of her face for five seconds. And then what are we doing? Jack Shram is also going.
+
+[12:57] We were gonna throw a party at the I'm not allowed to say where it was gonna be, but we're not gonna throw that party. And then I don't know what we're doing. We're going to do a cooking issues from Los Angeles. Maybe in case you have a list of use. Is that true?
+
+[13:10] Yeah. You you deal with all this stuff. Anyway, stay tuned. Uh stay tuned for that. Also, uh at the end of the show, we're also doing a dinner party at the house.
+
+[13:18] No, we're not. Who said we were doing a dinner party at the house? You did this is the first time hearing of it. The last time the last time I did a party at a house in the Hollywood Hills that Nastasia rented with You know you're staying there again, right? Oh yeah.
+
+[13:34] So she rented this house in the in the Hollywood Hills, like literally the last house before the Hollywood sign. It has a tent where I could throw a baseball and maybe well, no, I'm not that strong, but I could throw a baseball and hit the Hollywood sign from it. And uh this is the one where she set an immersion circulator on 55 Fahrenheit, threw a bunch of steak in it for like six hours, and used it as a freaking doorstop, and never bothered to stick her finger into the water. Like any normal human, listen, it doesn't take Sherlock freaking homes. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:07] Or, you know, Angela Lansbury to look over. But I covered it with saran wrap. No, you didn't. Yeah, I did. No, you didn't.
+
+[14:13] Which had any heat been generated, that would have insulated it really well. Yeah, dingy ding ding ding. Yeah, right? But obviously, no vapor coming off of it at all. Never bothers to touch it, see what's going on.
+
+[14:25] And the one question She sends someone who shall remain nameless. Her nickname's the Boondogler. Sends someone over to increase the to decrease the temperature of the bath a 55 Fahrenheit below room temperature bath, by the way, by two degrees. Has to somehow touch the equipment and not realize that this thing has been sitting in room temp water. I mean for outside.
+
+[14:53] This is well outside the danger zone. No, no. Oh no. Oh no, no. Room temperature.
+
+[14:58] No. Oh, I suppose that's true. Yeah, yeah. No. No, she was like, she was like, listen, I know this, I know this meat started out cold, and the bacteria was having a tough time growing.
+
+[15:09] So let me just as fast as possible, let me run a bunch of room temperature water over it. By the way, room temperature in LA. So not like, you know, room temperature in like the Arctic tundra. Like room temperature in LA, right? Let me just get it up to that temperature to see whether I can really just ferment this mother for a while.
+
+[15:26] I show up. I said I ask one thing of you. Do not yell at me in front of my parents. You didn't care whether I yelled at you in front of your dad. That's true.
+
+[15:35] Uh and then, and then, but she's like, listen, listen, listen. Don't you just need to be nice in front of my parents. And then I see that I'm supposed to be putting our name, Booker and Dax. I'm supposed to be an expert in this stuff, right? Putting our name on this.
+
+[15:53] Nastasia Lopez, who sits in this freaking chair next to me and has for I don't know how what do we have to do, 8,000 episodes now? And has heard me talk about low temperature cooking, I don't know, eight billion times, right? Writing a book on the freaking subject, can't even set up the simplest circulator in the world, and she expects me to sit there and be like, hi Nastasia. Great job setting up the party when her parents happen to walk in behind me when I'm trying to figure out what the hell has happened in this kitchen. This is an unreasonable expectation.
+
+[16:23] That's like saying, that's like saying, Dave, I know you're on fire. The one thing you can't do is stop drop and roll. No! I'm sorry. I have to stop dropping roll.
+
+[16:31] My mom was horrified. Well, she should have been. I think I spoke to your dad about it. I think she was horrified at what a terrible job you did with that immersion circulator, is what she was horrified at. I know I would be.
+
+[16:42] Oh my god. It's like I tell Dax every day, do well or don't come home. I don't actually say we do say that to each other as a joke, but obviously I don't mean it. Okay. Uh Neil wrote in from Los Angeles.
+
+[16:54] Uh, hey Dave, Nastasia. And oh, you're now Booth Boy Matt. How do you like that? Ooh, no. Uh Booth Boy?
+
+[17:01] Booth boy. Booth boy. Alright. Am I like bringing you drinks? No, it's like boy, like boy, I don't know.
+
+[17:08] Maybe it's like as like you're like a hype man. Okay, okay. I'll bring my I'll get my giant watch from or clock from home for around my neck. Do you have a flavor flav necklace? Uh I will once I get on Amazon.
+
+[17:20] Sweet. Do they still sell those? Of course they do. I mean, troubled individual, right? Had a lot of issues.
+
+[17:27] Great hype man. Flavor flavor. Paris Gourmet delivers the finest specialty imported and local foods directly to chefs. For over 35 years, Paris Gourmet has sourced specialty foods from around the world. Their Meadowlands headquarters services the New York Tri-State area.
+
+[17:51] Paris Gourmet delivers Bermont butters, cacao Noel chocolates, ravi fruit pureees, cuisine tech ingredients, and bon pissier viennoiserie to your kitchen. Paris gourmet brings the world to your doorstep. They're close when professionals need them most. Learn more at ParisGourmet.com. Okay, and any other guests in the studio.
+
+[18:12] I'm working on a draft. Do we already deal with this? Draft spritz at the bar and some home some carbonation questions. Sounds yeah, you've done the carbonation. I know you've talked a lot about this in the past.
+
+[18:20] Did we already talk about this? I have some new information. Everyone I talk to, this is Neil said, everyone Neil spoke to says they need a carbstone, and I played around carbonating water with a carbstone, uh, and it works just fine. Uh as long as I don't mind shaking a five-gallon keg like a jerk, is the carbstone necessary? Uh P.S.
+
+[18:38] I had a good time at existing conditions. Okay. I have just recently used a carbstone. I attempted to do a and people might find this interesting, a kegged uh cocktail. Everyone knows that I'm anti-kegged uh carbonated cocktails because they come out rather undercarbonated because of the immense amount of foaming you get uh at the tap, no matter kind of how good a job you you did.
+
+[18:59] Now, uh I was using a carbonating stone and I was testing carbonation levels, and I was able using uh what I did was I circulated uh the carbonation stone that you use with uh one of the uh these things. You have a pump, the pump circulates the liquid through the keg through the carbonating stone uh and and carbonates it that way. Uh I had a good good result carbonating it. What I did was is I circulated the product with the pump through a cold plate uh so that the product was continuously kept cold uh while I was doing it, and it was done very quickly. The temperature dropped down to pretty close to to zero in I would say five to ten minutes.
+
+[19:39] Um I also, before I hooked up the carbonator stone, I put the batch into the keg, applied uh CO2 to it to the tube side to the so that I was pushing from the bottom and vented all the air out. But I also tried to keep it circulating because my theory, one of my theories was one of the reasons you get a lot of foaming, especially at the beginning when you're using water, is that uh static stuff in the line has air uh you know bubbles in it, and when you depress it, those bubbles foam up. So I was trying to keep it circulating and cold and uh dispense it that way, uh constantly circulating from a really nice tap. Still didn't work. I still had undercarbonated cocktails, so I still do not recommend it.
+
+[20:16] But you know, your results may vary, and by that your standards may vary. Oh Nastasi's like, don't care. Um mood therapist from Vietnam asks, uh do I need to suggest that you buy another vegetti? No, someone handed me a vegetti when I was in Chicago. Oh, by the way, I was in Chicago last week.
+
+[20:40] Um, by the way, Clara's speech went well. Oh, so for those of you that were listening to the episode where I was giving uh advice to someone uh doing a wedding official speech, it went well, but I heard that Nastasia had to take care of a lot of dotting the I's and crossing the T's to make sure that the wedding happened. For instance, uh your favorite officiant showed up 45 minutes late to the rehearsal. Because she wanted to go buy wine for herself. Well, for herself?
+
+[21:06] Yeah. Who the hell buys wine for themselves? Because she didn't want to pay for the wine at the ranch. Wait, what? So she's like buying Capri Sons of wine so that she can like does she have like a beer hat with two wines in it?
+
+[21:14] And she's like sucking it down. Yeah. Dearly. Dearly sucking on like wine as he's like. What?
+
+[21:26] Who buys wine for themselves? I don't want to buy wine at this ranch. We're going to the store so I can get it for cheap. What did she buy? Some kind of Chardonnay.
+
+[21:36] What's that stuff? Kendall Jackson? Yeah. Oh, geez, Louise. Oh, geez.
+
+[21:42] Uh anyways. So I was in Chicago. Uh the Vegetti comment reminded me. So wait, Moot Therapist was calling about condensers and roto vaps. Nastasia Lopez tells me that it's too deep to get into this conversation because only three of you will really care about the uh cooling power of condensers at of uh chillers for condensers at various um distillation rates.
+
+[22:07] So Nastasia assures me that nobody cares, so just reach out to me individually and I'll answer it. What? Tweet it. It's beyond Twitter. Whatever.
+
+[22:16] You can DM me. We'll deal with it. He's supposed to. I thought we were gonna go to Vietnam and hang out. It's not like I answer my phone anyway.
+
+[22:24] So um wait, what were we talking about before that? Chicago. Chicago. So uh if anyone out there is listening from Chicagoland, once again, uh Frontera Grill did us way, way right. And uh we had um uh you know Rick Bayless and Yotunda Allison got us a whole bunch of one of my favorite herbs to work with, Oja Santa, which is a very, it's big, it's it's related to um black pepper, actually.
+
+[22:50] It's in the same uh genus, different species, and also related to you know, pond leaves, which are used, or beetle leaves, which are used for chewing quids of of uh of beetle nut uh, you know, over vast, you know, areas of Southeast Asia. Um, but it's a really, I think, good spice. I don't know, uh herb rather. I don't know why. Why do you think people don't use it in the US fresh?
+
+[23:11] Is it because it's so big? I don't like it. Why do you not like it? I don't like the flavor. What do you not like about it?
+
+[23:15] Describe the flavor that you don't like. All of that flavors that you just talked about, I don't like. Which flavors? The beetle nut. Beetelnut is is it doesn't taste anything like beetle nut.
+
+[23:25] The it doesn't taste zero in fact, beetle nut is a beetle nut and the leaf that you chew with it is at least reminds me of um Sachuan peppers. It has no relation to Sichuan peppers. It doesn't have it does not have any tingling at all. It is not a tingling herb. It has no tingle at all.
+
+[23:42] There's no, there's absolutely zero Sichuan button flavor. I think you don't have an accurate memory of Oja Santa. I think so. Are you thinking of tarragon? No.
+
+[23:53] I know what you're talking about, Dave. What does it look like? It's a gigantic leaf. The one that is the one that is from India has it tastes like burning transformers. That one people the Mexican one does not.
+
+[24:05] They are different species. I am not wrong. I have studied this quite thoroughly, and I am not wrong. Uh anyway, it's a great fresh herb. If you can find it, uh I recommend it.
+
+[24:18] Uh Rick Bayless was uh, as usual, super kind, able to get us because it's a little early in the season. He grows his own. I didn't see him. Uh, you know, they were closed uh the night we did the event, so I didn't get to didn't get to see them. But anyway, thanks.
+
+[24:33] Shout out to them. Um see, we have a question from Matt regarding dragon's beard. So, how many years ago did I do that dragon's beard video? Nine. So Dragon's Beard is like uh you've heard of hand pulled noodles.
+
+[24:46] Well, Dragon's Beard is like hand pulled cotton candy. And so what you you you you take sugar um and you you cook it, sugar and you know, I think uh I did it officially, so I used maltos, but sugar and I think they added the maltos to it, I don't remember. Who's best at the dragon's beard? What do you mean? Me?
+
+[25:03] Nick Wong. He never made it. Yeah, he did. When did he make it? He came in and I handed it to him.
+
+[25:10] He had the best, he had the best racist picture of himself with it. And he made a picture of himself and said, here is the best racist picture you will ever have. You remember now? Now do you remember how it works? Anyways, uh do you have any recommendations for how to make Dragon's Beard candy at home?
+
+[25:26] Uh what cook temp, pull temp, etc. I tried yesterday to recreate it as best as I understood, and just ended up with long, fat, snotty shaped strands. Ooh, long, fat, snotty shaped strands. I definitely started stretching while the candy was too warm, but any recommendations, suggestions, and our tutorials, references would be appreciated. Oh, this is not from Matt.
+
+[25:43] This is from Serena. P.S. uh, Nastasia, I missed a chance to go to Pasta Flyer. I'm kicking myself for it. Awaiting your next adventure.
+
+[25:51] Uh so Serena, I have a video on this. Uh I don't I I I didn't get a chance to go look at it again, but I have all of the information on the on the video, like all of the like the cook temperatures and all of that other stuff. Uh the main thing is if you pull too early, you're definitely gonna get that kind of ropey, ropey thing. You should wait for it to be dead cold. And then if it's too hard, you can just nuke it for a second in the microwave.
+
+[26:19] But the whole trick about it is getting the cook time very similar to the cook time that I used in the in the recipe. That's why you really shouldn't change the mount, the amount of the quantity of the recipe that I have and the amount of vinegar I have. The problem with when you're cooking sugar is you're trying to get a you're as you cook sugar, a lot of complex things happen to it. So cooking to a temperature is not doesn't really mean the same thing as cooking to a particular temperature at a particular uh in a particular amount of time with a particular amount of acid. So you're adding some acid to the sugar vinegar in the case of the recipe I used, um, you're adding some acid to it, and what that's gonna do is invert, invert some of the sugar, split some of the sucrose into uh into uh glucose and fructose, and that is going to uh drastically affect the texture of the finished product.
+
+[27:15] So uh the amount of time that you're boiling something in the presence of acid is going to affect the amount of uh temperature, the amount of sugar inversion that you get. So for a given temperature, and Harold McGee has proven this by putting sugar in at very for very, very, very long times at very constant temperatures, and you can see them kind of break down and change color. So, in general, for a recipe where you're cooking sugar, you want to get the the use the same batch size they do so that stuff's evaporating at roughly the same rate, and you want to hit roughly the same amount of time. So if you go back and you look at that recipe that I did, um just try to hit those numbers exactly once it cools down. You should get the texture pretty much exactly like I did.
+
+[28:01] If it's too hard, you can heat it, but just know that we're talking like five seconds in the microwave. You don't even want like sensible, what I would call sensible heat in it. You want it to kind of um uh you want it to just be good enough to make that donut by pushing your finger through the puck. You basically you make a puck of sugar and then you put your finger through it, form it into a donut, make the donut relatively wide around. This you want to do very accurately.
+
+[28:26] If you have lots of really thin spots in the donut that you're pulling on, that's when you know they're gonna only get worse and worse. Then you put it into your cornstarch and/or cornstarch and flavor mixture, and then you start pulling. Make sure that you're always uh, you know, you know, figurating, putting together and pulling, make sure that you're always dredging it in between cornstarch, and hopefully you'll have a better result. If it's like I say, too hot, uh, it just doesn't work. And if the texture is too stiff when it's cold, it will snap.
+
+[28:53] So it's kind of hard to get it just right. But once you get the texture right, you will it will work a hundred percent of the time, and you will know based on touching it whether it is right or wrong. Um anyway. Uh Matthew Sanders wrote in about uh no Nastasia Lopez is sitting here reading emails and hitting the table with her foot such that my microphone keeps jangling up and down like I'm on a horse and buggy. Why she's doing this, I don't know.
+
+[29:24] And I'm I look at her, give her the snap. If you hear this, that's me trying to get her to stop bouncing the table with her feet. Now I bounce my feet, so I'm not saying you can't bounce your feet. I mean, both Nastasi and I are are inveterate fidgeters, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[29:38] Yeah. But do you need to bounce the table, Nastasi? Remember when Nick Wong came on the show and didn't say anything? Yeah, it pissed me off. So, what are you looking at on the internet right now?
+
+[29:47] Nothing. There's no internet, but what emails are you reading? I saw a picture coming up. Was it interesting? I think it's a good idea.
+
+[29:51] Was it a picture of someone's baby? I know you hate seeing people's babies, so I doubt it's that. Is that true? Why do you tell me that every day? You're like, I d I hate babies.
+
+[30:00] Every day? I don't hate babies. She hates babies. I don't hate babies. I find them annoying.
+
+[30:05] Did you guys get this question about existing conditions name? No. Explain it, Dave. Can I can I give you this one? Let me guess.
+
+[30:12] What's the name about? Uh yeah, that's the that's the quick way. I'll redo the whole message. Just wondering how you guys came up with the existing conditions name uh for your bar. I work in architecture and interior design and we use the term quite a bit.
+
+[30:26] Did your wife being an architect have something to do with the name? Yeah, Don and I, well, like like uh Jen, my wife was talking to us about the existing conditions at various places that we were looking to uh take over. And uh we Don uh and I, you know, were told, you need a name, you need a concept. And we're like, what the hell? I thought the concept was we were gonna make drinks.
+
+[30:50] You know what I mean? And uh, but apparently these days that's not enough. If it if you don't have some sort of like, you know, high concept, it just doesn't work. And so she just kept talking about the existing conditions, and Don and I at at the same time were like, hey, that's a great, that's a great name, and also to kind of abuse the architectural concept a little bit, we were like, well, we're gonna focus on using the existing conditions at the space, doing as little kind of intervention as possible, uh, and have that be the the goal. Because the goal is to is to focus on the staff and the drinks and the hospitality and not so much on um you know, trying to impose our will on a bunch of already existing conditions in a space because that gets really pricey.
+
+[31:36] People people spend, you know, people you could you could drop a million dollars on a space and you would hardly even know that you did it. You know, it's isn't it crazy where the money goes, Nastasi, especially if you do things legally. I mean, I'm not saying that they do things illegally here at Roberta's, Matt. But I mean also look they have greens on the pizzas now. They they will not have greens on our pizza.
+
+[31:59] So Nastasia, like so like anything you do by the book costs 30 times as much as anything that you don't do by the book. But Nastasia Lopez and I for how many years have we been doing this? So many. Have been asking for greens on our and we're like we'll pay. I wouldn't even make the radio pay.
+
+[32:16] We would pay out of and if you know how cheap Nastasi and I are we would pay out of our own pockets. Yeah. To have greens on our pizza. That looks delicious. And there I'm looking out at this dude and he has greens on his pizza now in his defense, I'm sure he asked for what is that arugal I can't see they gave him like three leaves.
+
+[32:38] No actually I think it's I think it's cilantro. That's not cilantro. Yeah Dave look that's some sort anyway they gave the poor guy like three greens turn the tables on them. Tap on the window see if you can get their attention. Hey yo yo yo cave the rest of your pizza yo anyway so Nastasi and I are gonna go there and we're gonna ask them for greens on their pizza and what are they gonna say?
+
+[32:58] Nah no it's a garden this is this is a garden. It's crazy. No, this is a container yeah or we're under a garden. We're under a garden. Yeah not our garden.
+
+[33:09] Um they had a second question completely unrelated. All right. Uh they say I'm looking for a chocolate melter not a tempering machine per se, as I would like to temper couverture chocolate by hand and keep it at the proper temperature in the melter. Do you have any recommendation on a particular brand or any features I should consider. I'm bas it's basically for hobby work, something in the 3k range.
+
+[33:33] Three kilogram? Yes. Yeah, no, I don't. It's been it's been a long time since I've worked at the French culinary. I used to know all the name brands of the melters they used at the French culinary, but you know, I don't, especially if you don't want one that uh tempers.
+
+[33:50] I mean, uh, I would see whatever JG J uh JB Prince's has now, because they usually carry stuff that works pretty well. Um, but uh yeah, I don't have any, I don't off the top of my head, I could take a look, but I don't off the top of my head have any good recommendations for it. Um Matthew Sanders writes in about nopolis. Now, is this another one of those things that you don't like, Nastasia? As a cactus?
+
+[34:12] Yeah. I don't know it that well. Really? Mm-hmm. But you grew up in Southern California.
+
+[34:17] We didn't eat that. What? We didn't eat that. Is it your dad Mexican? Mm-hmm.
+
+[34:21] What? You didn't eat it at all? What about prickly pears? No. No.
+
+[34:28] None of it? No. Okay. Uh I'm a sucker for the flavor of Nopalis paddles, which are the Nopalis. Okay, we'll get into it in a minute.
+
+[34:38] Uh, and a friend who has a large uh I and I have a friend who has a large squad of cacti in his alleyway. I effectively have an unlimited supply to experiment with. The only published cocktails I've seen with No Paulis are in two families. Uh the first track I've seen infuses the flavor into a simple syrup. Uh fresh napalis have a nice green uh pepper citrus vibe going on.
+
+[34:57] And after you simmer them, they just move into green bean asparagus peas territory. Not terrible, but and then dot dot dot, not not what you're looking for. The next track is blending it into a god-awful Slurpee from hell. It's so thick and viscous and snotty that it's not even worth it, even though that tastes pretty good. Straining the stuff is incredibly difficult, and the sludge does not want to separate.
+
+[35:18] What should I be doing to these uh little friends for maximum clean flavor extraction while combating the pulpy slime? Uh and for the ongoing cooking issue census, I'm 36, male, married, and my wife is down for whatever kitchen stuff I want. As long as we have room for it, she's a fantastic home baker and has plenty of her own kitchen gadgets. Desperately trying to carve out space for a spinzall, it might get relegated to the garage. Well, why not?
+
+[35:43] Uh all of our stuff ends up getting relegated to the garage, right? Nastasia, trailing edge technology. Uh so uh nopolis are like uh there's a bunch of different and you get a bunch of stuff from from no nopolis. Napolis are the paddles, right? And they come from a larger, large, relatively large group of cactus or cacti called uh opuntia, right?
+
+[36:07] So the fruits, the same cactus that gives you the paddles, uh, different different species of them. You can get the paddles, you also get uh prickly pear cactus. Now, prickly pear fruits. In America, in most places in America, if you buy prickly pear in the supermarket, they suck real hard. They're they're almost flavorless.
+
+[36:27] Um you can get various varieties of them. So, like the one that uh, you know, that Rick Bayliss again got us, uh, Shucko Nosle, which don't even bother, it starts starts XO, but it's pronounced Shucka Nosle. Uh or Shockan, I don't know how you pronounce it, but that's the way he pronounces it. Or that's the way he had me pronounce it. Uh, has a lot more acidity.
+
+[36:45] So if you don't like pick prickly pear fruit uh or a punty of fruits now, please do not judge them until you've tried a wide variety because the flavor is extremely different from species to species and plant to plant. And whenever I'm within uh whether I'm in an area and I see them like on roadsides, I try them, and they are incredibly different from different places, different plants, different species, etc. Uh and when you dry them, uh you get the the dried prickly pear, which is more of a texture thing, less of a uh flavor thing, but that is called tuna, I guess. Anyway, uh the leaves, the paddles, have a like a hardcore mucus in them that in in uh I forget the Spanish word for it, it's like babusa or something like this. But it's very, very snotty.
+
+[37:35] So even when you're just cooking with it, people have a lot of uh ways they try to ameliorate the slime. And the slime is uh is a hydrocolloid, I think. I I looked it up, it has uh I think both proteins and hydrocolloids in it uh that cause it to kind of snot up on you. But uh the various ways that that people do it is they will uh cut it, salt it. By the way, be careful of the prickers.
+
+[37:59] So I I uh take a knife and shave the the prickers off before I use it. Some people then also flame it to get rid of some of the prickers. But if you if you slice it, uh salt it, right, the the salt will cause water to come out. As the water comes out, the mucus will come out with it. You rinse off the mucus and the salt and the stuff that's left over is less mucusy.
+
+[38:18] That's one thing people do. Another thing, as you say, people do is they will slice it, uh, boil it and skim the scum off of the top. That gets rid of some of the mucus too, but it causes it to be cooked. The only way that I have ever seen um cactus used in a cocktail that wasn't snotty uh was if you blend directly into liquor, the if the liquor content is high enough, and we had a a cactus uh cocktail that uh Felipe uh you know used at our at our bar at Booker Index. If you blend the cactus leaves directly into liquor, um the the hydrocaloid can't stay in solution in the liquor, and it will drop out.
+
+[39:01] And you can have a mucus-free uh uncooked cactail uh uh cactus uh infusion, but you have to do it into the straight spirit. I was not able, even with uh Pectanex uh Ultra SPL to knock out the mucus once the mucus is allowed to stay solubilized in a syrup. So anyway, there you have it. Um for that question? No.
+
+[39:26] Oh, so I didn't get to Bob's stuff on wine finding and bentonite. Uh a couple other things I need to get to, but I guess we'll get to oh, I know one thing before we go. Uh, because I just looked at the clock and we have two minutes. But Nastasi's like, you're gonna stop me from reading my emails some more. So she literally, people, I wish you could see this, Matt.
+
+[39:42] Can you take a picture? She pushes the mic away from her face, puts her feet up on the table, bounces the table, and sifts through emails during this show. But it's like all the time. Like it's she's all the time done with you. Like, how am I supposed to work in this?
+
+[40:01] She gives me crap for being late while I'm literally busting my butt trying to find the answers to your questions, people. And then during the show, she isn't actually here. So she is late the entire time because she's never in the show. She's always doing something else. My horoscope says today, you may realize that you'll have better chances for a razor promotion if you inventory your accompl accomplishments and demonstrate your value.
+
+[40:23] Oh, yeah. Demonstrating your hardcore value right now. You're reading your horoscope during the show. This is important, Dave. I'll tell you, it's horror scope with what I had to deal with on a regular basis.
+
+[40:29] It's like a constant horror. What were you gonna say? So Nastasia and I, did we mention this? The uh video series we're gonna do. Yeah.
+
+[40:43] We mentioned it? I haven't heard no one's tweeted me or anything. Oh, well, the chicken cannon. Dimensions? You said tweet ideas.
+
+[40:49] Nobody's tweeted anymore. You should mention it again, but yes. I don't look my Twitter, by the way, if you want to tweet me, is the same as the show title at cooking issues on the Twitter. And uh I have a I forget whether it's four or five inch across chicken cannon that I built uh a while ago, and I'm gonna tweet out soon. Uh what do you want to do it?
+
+[41:13] I I don't know. I gotta tweet out uh uh a clip of how powerful this chicken cannon is. Let's just say that I pointed it at like uh a three-eighths inch piece of Lexan and uh it evaporated the Lexan. Now originally the chicken gun was used uh to test windshields uh for bird impact strikes, and that's how my and you know I'm gonna talk about this later, but my my grandpa, when he he used to build radars for Westinghouse, uh he built the Pearl Harbor radar. Did I say that on the air?
+
+[41:44] Anyway, so he used to watch them shoot the birds at the windshields, and to me what stuck in my head was that he said the janitor used to take the birds home and cook them. So I've always wondered what that does. So I built this chicken gun, and every time I fired it, I was not able to properly recover the chicken. So we're gonna take the chicken gun, and I know Nastasia says that I'm the fancy one. Nastasia's the one with a beach house now.
+
+[42:06] I'm gonna take the chicken gun to her beach house. We're gonna fire some chickens into the Long Island Sound. An old wall. And we're gonna fire a chicken into a brick wall with a tarp. A stone wall.
+
+[42:17] What happened to the ones that you could not quote unquote properly recover? Well, the one that evaporated the Lexan, it just went through the Lexan. It ended up all coated with dirt. So I don't know. I couldn't like get all the dirt off.
+
+[42:30] And then I fired another one into the woods and I hit a tree, but by the time I got to it, my dog had been chewing on it, had leaves and stuff. So what we need to do is Are we recovering the ones from the ocean? That's just kind of a distant shot. What we need to do is fire the chickens. You can try to recover it.
+
+[42:45] What? We should try to recover the. Yeah, it's already brined. Yeah. Yeah, but it won't have the.
+
+[42:50] I want to see the tenderization effect of it hitting the wall and then recover it. We just need a big enough tarp so that it's not hitting dirt, right? No. And then and then so we're gonna take, we're gonna shoot the chicken into a into a stone wall, and that's gonna stand in for the windshield. Then we're gonna pick up the parts and grill them and have like, you know.
+
+[43:10] Baby barbecue. Uh yeah, a chicken, uh a grilled chicken uh fest with uh chicken gun chicken. And we're gonna video this as part of a we're also gonna be cooking things with uh resistance cooking. You can look up resistance cooking, where literally it's like the electric chair of cooking techniques where you just you know put two electrodes into something and cook it by running electricity through it using the food itself as a resistor. We're gonna do that.
+
+[43:34] So we're looking for uh ideas like this that you want us to test. And some people did send us some of those, but if you have anything that you want to shoot out of a chicken gun that weighs that can fit into a tube about uh, what is that, like five five inches across, five or six inches across, and weighs whatever chicken weighs, which is like what, four pounds in that range, then we can fire it out of a gun and cook it up. But only stuff that you want cooked, because this is a cooking show. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[44:13] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[44:40] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Route Eleven Potato Chips. Made with a secret recipe and superior ingredients. Their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. To learn more, visit RT11.com. Meet and three is back.
+
+[0:18] We're kicking off our fourth season and celebrating HRN's 10th anniversary with a very special episode about our home, Brooklyn. Roberta's was such an interesting place with such a strong gravitational pull and attracted all these different groups. The neighborhood has changed a lot over the past decade from its culinary renaissance to the complicated implications of gentrification. I would say the majority of the people who are members of our co-op definitely have a certain purchasing power, are mostly white, and we are trying to change that. We're taking you on a journey that spans the birthplace of food radio to buzzy neighborhood pollinators to the transformative health journey of our borough president.
+
+[1:00] That was my moment of, you know, wow, someone has thrown me a life raft, and I'm going to take it. Subscribe to Meet and Three. That's M E A T plus Sign T H R E E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:23] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from actually fairly close. We were here fairly close, right, Matt? I I'm impressed. I've also never had the door open while you did that before. Wow.
+
+[1:34] That's you generate some serious volume. Oh yeah, man. That's the that's the whole thing. Like I told you, we tried to see whether we could go for a mellow, but you know, it just doesn't uh, you know, people don't like it. By the way, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brrrr Brooklyn.
+
+[1:48] Joined uh with uh we got Matt in the booth. Nastasia Lopez is with me. She arrived with me on the subway train, but she is next door placing our uh order for lunch because as those of you may or may not know, uh our payment for do uh really I think she's here. Nastasia just comes in and in the middle of a sentence just throws the mic out of the way. Just project.
+
+[2:11] She doesn't like wait for the sentence to be over. Project. Uh yeah, so Nastasia, Nastasi, yeah. Nastasia uh and my payment for this is a pizza. Sheerjoy.
+
+[2:29] Sheer joy and a pizza, right, Nastasia? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you that want us to host a you know, 45-minute podcast, all it requires really is a pizza.
+
+[2:44] We're gonna podcast from a secret location in Los Angeles next week. We're gonna be in Los Angeles next week. And by secret, she means we have no idea where it's going to be. Why do you do that? Also, we rented a VW van uh at 84 or 83, can't remember.
+
+[3:01] Right, but it doesn't look like the old, it's like more of a modern, it's not like an old school peace bus, right? It's not like rounded. Yeah, it's 80, it's 84. But it has a full kitchen, and we're gonna show up at one lucky radio guest's uh radio listener's house and spin some stuff. What?
+
+[3:19] Yeah, what? Yeah, what? Yes. Wow. You know what?
+
+[3:23] Nastasia just makes this stuff up and I told you this, like three times. No, no. Yes, I did, Dave, and you said, okay, just tell me where to go. Uh it's not very rarely do I say that. It does not sound like me.
+
+[3:35] And I will say also that uh Nastasia will find some way to bow out. No way. I'm the driver. You're the driver. Oh, so the peace bus is coming.
+
+[3:44] Yeah, with the full kitchen and the two beds. Does it have an inverter in it? Is it like a is it like a rolling uh, you know, so you can plug uh can we plug a centerfuge in on the inside of the of the peace bus? Every year. I've never burned been to Burning Man.
+
+[4:01] There's a whole group of people. We have a friend, Jordana Rothman, who is she doesn't go anywhere. She was big on it. Like, so now it's just not my thing. I mean, why do you not want to go Nastasia?
+
+[4:12] I don't like the people. I don't think I'll like the people there. Preemptively. She preemptively doesn't like the people. That sounds about right.
+
+[4:18] What about you, Matt? You uh are you a burning man person? Uh nah. No. I don't I just don't care to go.
+
+[4:24] I don't like drugs either, so uh I'm pro drugs, but I just won't. Um we have a caller on the air with a with a question about Burning. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey y'all, this is Devin. I was hoping to slip into questions with uh Booth Boy and uh cheap till it came back, but next time I guess.
+
+[4:42] All right, wasn't it? Um so I'm wondering, um I see sometimes advertisements. I I'm not a cook or anything, but uh for very high-end stoves and ranges that are used by restaurants. Right. Um I'm wondering outside of the ornateness and the customization, do they cook food any better?
+
+[4:59] Are there any special features compared to your Vikings and kind of things with that ilk? Uh so the main thing about you're paying for different things for right, right. So Maltini, I've never used Moltini's home rate. Moltinis, you're spending a lot of money on the name, and you're also spending they there's a lot of kind of enameling work. Uh, you know, I've never done a lot of cooking on on a multini.
+
+[5:25] We almost got one for um we almost got one for the lab at the French culinary years ago that wasn't really a lab you didn't even know me they were gonna build an entire lab on the fifth floor and they ran out of money midway through building it so the entire fifth floor was empty for like three years and then when they built it they built it as a student thing and they didn't build a lab anymore so thanks for you know just chinning in with something. Yeah no but they were gonna build a lab so the idea original idea was they were going to build a lab that chefs could come in and use all this new stuff kind of like an incubator food incubator before it's time but then they just ran out of cash and then they were like you know what we don't need to build this. You probably would still be there if they had built a lab so maybe it's for the best. I don't know but back to this question. So a lot of this you know you're they're not building very many of them they're custom and they have a lot of enamel work and they have a lot of fancy you know fancy stuff on it and chefs who have their high-end equipment they end up falling in love with it right so while so the two kind two of the high-end brands uh you know associated with like with French chefs Multene Bonet and you know Wiley was a Bonet guy he loved his Bonet it's a giant built-in thing now I've never I know that Multene I think did some home stuff but I think with that it's not that it's gonna necessarily cook any better no their burners are very nice uh like French tops are very nice uh but they're not going to they're not gonna make your steak any better um the issue really if you're just talking in general commercial versus not.
+
+[7:01] So sometimes you're paying for things like the name, you're paying for things like build quality. So, you know, a Multini uh or even any of the higher end commercial stuff is just made with a much thicker gau uh gauge of steel, and so it's just a lot tougher, can take a lot more uh you know, abuse than uh not that you would abuse it, but it can take a lot more than than ordinary uh things. But really, like a a professional, like a uh a low to mid-range professional thing, the difference between that and home is typically that there's just a much higher output on the professional one. The other thing that professional things tend to have is you have a like a rail in front. So when you're cooking professionally, uh, you know, at your range, you'll be you'll be using your burners, and then you'll have a rail in the front that you can either pull stuff up or you could put a six-pan up front and move around.
+
+[7:52] And so like that rail is very helpful. And I think most home stoves don't have that rail. Also, almost all professional stoves that I've used are designed to operate like a flat system. So the grates are such that pans can be slid uh off on around, like I said, up to the rail or off to the side very easily. Not all home things are like that.
+
+[8:14] Uh so what you're paying for can be a lot of stainless as opposed to if you're buying a stainless unit, which you know, most home units aren't, really good grates or spiders, whatever you're gonna call them, because they're gonna take a lot of abuse, uh, especially if you're paying extra to have steel uh steel grates or steel spiders as opposed to cast, because cast ones can break uh and they often do break, especially in commercial applications. And then you're paying for the uh or you getting in a professional uh stove the burner output. Now there's a lot of downsides to professional equipment as well. Typically they're standing pilot, so that uh they're always putting heat out. That's why you know I have a I you know, don't tell anyone, but I have a professional one at home, and what I do is I turn off all of the pilots, and then I light them with I torch light them when I'm gonna use them just because I don't want to have those pilot lights running all the time.
+
+[9:03] Uh commercial ovens also, you know, they have a running pilot in them and they the gas ones anyway, and they uh tend to work, they're much bigger, like you want to be able to fit a full sheet pan in, so a lot of home ovens can't fit a full sheet pan in. Uh but they're also not insulated very well, so they take a lot more energy in, and then they also shoot a lot more energy out into the kitchen, uh, which is one of the reasons why commercial ovens really aren't spec'd for home, and some places don't allow them anymore. But they don't have as good of insulation. They get a lot hotter both in the back and on the sides. Uh so you know, you can scorch cabinetry that's next to it if it's not uh you know put together right.
+
+[9:42] Also, commercial ovens tend to be um they don't have broilers in them. So most commercial ovens, at least the ones that I've used, the heating element is down underneath, uh, but there's no top heating element, so there's no broiler element. So again, like commercial ovens and commercial ranges are fantastic for what you use them for. I actually absolutely hate home ranges because I just can't stand not having the power when I want it. But that said, like modern induction uh home ranges can do an excellent job.
+
+[10:11] So, you know, so it's not always that you're just paying for you know stuff that you don't need, but also sometimes having uh home equipment's not so bad. Like a home oven, as long as my my stuff fits in it and it's got a convection function, I'm gonna be fine with home range. It would take me a lot. I I at the place that I have in Connecticut, although not much longer, the place I have in Connecticut, uh I have never once used the range just because it's it's worthless, it's weak. So I have induction hobs that I use and and it's gas too, it's just is terrible, it sucks.
+
+[10:42] Uh but I just don't use it because I hate it. A reason for the um reduced insulation on the commercial units? Oh, well, I just don't think they care. Uh you know, they're building the stuff out of like higher gauge uh stuff. It's assumed that you're gonna have the thing uh cranking.
+
+[10:56] And any time that you throw away energy, you're actually making things more stable. So uh, like for instance, old school espresso machines, this is a theory, like I've never spoken to one of their designers about it, but in an old school espresso machine, it's not uh insulated uh, you know, at all very well or at all, because the way one of the ways that they get stability with relatively bad temperature control is just having so much heat leakage that there's a relatively high constant heat input. And if you have a relatively high constant heat input, you tend not to and uh in in and out, you tend to uh even out the bumps in the road and you get it to be kind of more stable at a higher temperature, uh, because if you have something that's very well insulated, you take it up to a temperature and the thing shuttle you know turns off, then when you open it, you're counting on um you you have a lower thermal, you have a little lower thermal mass and and lower like constant heat input, so it it can drop uh faster, right? Because they're putting more energy in and losing more energy out. But that's just a theory.
+
+[11:59] Uh and I just also think that you know, the average designer doesn't care very much about uh professional cooks and whether or not they're sweating to death. And lastly, it's only been very fairly recently that uh, you know, places like Fisher Nickel and all these other have have rated the energy efficiency of uh commercial appliances. And I think most people would be shocked, shocked at the amount of uh energy that's consumed by commercial uh appliances, commercial refrigeration, commercial uh gas ovens, ranges. You know, I looked at a uh a combi oven once um that was being used uh in one of the Momofuku uh places years ago, and that single oven had twice as much power going into it. A single oven had twice as much power as my entire apartment.
+
+[12:48] The entire apartment. So it's like uh, and that was a combi oven. So combi ovens also regulate themselves by hurling energy off into the ether. That's how they regulate their, you know, the how do you make a you know, this you get the steam, but you want to regulate it, you just vent all the excess to the atmosphere. So there's just crazy waste of energy.
+
+[13:07] And you know, hopefully in the future, um, you know, energy efficiency, water efficiency has hit a lot of people, but energy efficiency hasn't really hit. Uh it's hit more in California, which is where Fisher Nickel is from. And so there's a lot of people over the past 10 years, just talking about 10-year problem, that past 10 years who have been focused on energy efficiency, especially for things like steamers, fryers. Um yeah, ovens have not, I don't think caught a pace to that. Anyway, uh good question.
+
+[13:36] Call in next time with your second question. Uh Nastasia is, you know, doing her I I've been told that I should allow her to do her hammer thing and not feel nervous about it. Yeah. That's great. Who told you that?
+
+[13:51] You other people too. I don't know. I don't know. So now, anyway. Okay, so uh Colin Gonzalez wrote in, thanks for answering my uh my butter searing question a few weeks ago.
+
+[14:03] I have a new request and a question. Dave, please talk about ranch dressing. Uh I like ranch dressing. I think everyone loves ranch dressing. Nastasia, what are your thoughts on ranch?
+
+[14:12] I like the package one with the that you have to use with sour cream more than the one that comes in the can in the jar. Pre-made. But wait, but why are you advocating for pre-made ranch at all? Because most people bring the pre-made to your house. No, but why would you I mean ranch dressing or ranch dressing analogs are incredibly easy to make?
+
+[14:33] Why wouldn't you just make it? With the package? No, no. Why do you require a package to make ranch dressing? She's saying other normal human beings who don't make all their food bring it to her.
+
+[14:45] I al I always use the package. How do you make ranch dressing on your own? What is ranch dressing? I'm not really very ranch, really. What?
+
+[14:54] I just I don't know. I'm not really a dressing guy. Oh. What about Cool Ranch Doritos? Pro all variations on Doritos.
+
+[15:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They make some Doritos that are terrible. They make a Dorito that, I don't know, Dax liked it, but he opened it in the backseat of the car, and we thought someone had vomited in the backseat of the car. There are certain flavors that, if you're not eating them, smell repulsive. You know what I'm talking about, Nastasia?
+
+[15:16] Anyways. Have they done a Dorito flavor for every type of salad dressing? Is there a thousand island Dorito? Uh you know what I would like? I would like the blue cheese Dorito.
+
+[15:25] There you go. Blue cheese dress. By the way, I think, you know, Nastasia, you're also blue cheese dressing uh aficionado, no? Is it you? Who was it then?
+
+[15:32] Someone, maybe it was Jen. Like my wife. Like we were talking about. She should come on the show. She needs to come on the show.
+
+[15:38] But like. Has she ever been on the show? No. I know. No, it's like uh I think like half the people probably don't even believe that I have a wife.
+
+[15:46] I mean, yeah, myself included. You never met my wife? I I've heard a lot about her. I'm sure she exists, Dave. Don't worry about it.
+
+[15:53] She does exist. Um, but the uh so ranch, ranch, my son Dax, like ranch is the is the kind of the one thing that he used to learn how to make. And then if we don't have the ingredients for his version of ranch, then he just says, we don't have anything. I can't make any salad dressing. So in there are many different varieties of ranch, and I didn't actually look up the specifications before I came on.
+
+[16:14] But the basis of it is very simple. It's a mixture of mayonnaise and then sour cream and some people uh yogurt, right? Unflavored, unsweetened yogurt, right? So there I don't put yogurt in it. I'm more of a sour cream mayonnaise kind of a fellow.
+
+[16:30] So like that's the base is that. And then salt, pepper, some herb, uh, like usually you have to put an allium in it, like chive. And then uh I like in it dill. But honestly, if you want to go to a ranch alike, a ranch alloyed, a ranch similar thing, you can throw in any green herb. You can throw in possible, you could throw in cilantro, cilantro.
+
+[16:53] Pack it. Why the hell would I do that? Salt. The key also, everyone, a lot of people are anti-sugar. No, I don't like sugar.
+
+[17:00] Oh you know, there's sugar in the pack. Add some sugar, a little bit. You don't want to make it sweet. You want to balance out balance it out a little bit. And some people like to add more acidity.
+
+[17:10] You can add more acidity in the form of lemon, you can add more acidity in the form of vinegar. You don't have to add more acidity at all if you don't want. Um, and uh see, I don't think there's garlic in a standard ranch, but it doesn't hurt it. And I always uh to most of my dressings like to add a touch of uh mustard, but again, is it 100% necessary? No.
+
+[17:29] So anything in there, and you know, you blend it all in your food processor and you got ranch. Did I say salt and pepper? Yeah, all right, there you go. So, oh, and because Dax likes it, he always squeezes a little sriracha. Again, not supposed to be there, but you can do anything.
+
+[17:42] As long as you start with that cooling base of mayonnaise and sour cream, uh, with maybe yogurt if that's what your thing is. Um, then you could throw anything else in you want. You could add lemon juice if you want, you could add, you know, salt, pepper, an herb, usually chives, any alum really, and uh dill, and then everything else is up to grabs. And I think ranch is delicious. I think everyone should make their own ranch.
+
+[18:07] I don't even know why they sell packets. Why would you sell a packet? What do you add the packet to? Sour cream. Just sour cream, no mayonnaise?
+
+[18:14] Mistake. Straight sour cream, mistake. So good. Mistake. For a dip, maybe sour cream moment.
+
+[18:22] But if you were what if you were making it for dressing? I've never made it for adjusting. Okay. Uh, and two, I was recently watching Thomas Keller's masterclass. Uh he thinks we should do one of these master classes on cocktails.
+
+[18:36] I you know, he has those Thomas Keller has those uh those, what does he say on them? He says something incredibly weird on them, right? Like, what did he say? Have you seen the commercial for it and says? I gotta look it up.
+
+[18:46] Anyway, and he used, oh, he used tammies to make a potato puree, which he contrasted with regular mashed potatoes. He later makes a parsnip puree, and instead of using the Tammy, he simply Vitamixed it. He says that if you try to do the potato in the blender, all the starch would cause it to become gummy. What is it about high-speed blending that would cause this? Well, it ruptures the starch granules, and then it pastes out.
+
+[19:05] So Nils, who used to work with at the French Culinary Institute, used to add extra water to certain potatoes, blend them in the vita prep to make them gummy on purpose. He would make an on-purpose gummy potato puree, uh, and it was uh quite good. By the way, oh, and I finished mashed potatoes with an immersion blender before. It is is it likely that I was unknowingly eating gummy potatoes? Well, look, a couple things on mashed taters.
+
+[19:26] Uh I So, okay, so with a Tammy, a Tammy is a fantastic way to make mashed potatoes if you have another person doing it, right? So Thomas Keller is willing to do tammied mashed potatoes because he only has to do it once and then tell you that this is the way you should do it. But sitting there with a pastry scraper, scraping potatoes through a tammy over a bowl, then mixing the stuff into it, then cleaning out said tammy is a freaking nightmare. I hate it. So I hate doing it that way.
+
+[19:55] Do you like doing it that way, Nastasia? The good thing about it is that it forces you to cook the potatoes enough. The classic mistake people make with mashed potatoes is to like, I'm afraid I'm gonna overcook the potatoes. And so they undercook mashed potatoes. You cannot make mashed potatoes with undercooked potatoes.
+
+[20:10] The trick is to cook the bee to cook the bejesus out of them. Now you can either bake them, right, which I do, or you can boil them. People don't like to boil them because of the extras excess water in them, but if you dump them and then like keep them over a heat a heated area for a while open so that they flash off, most of the extra water is gonna go away and you're not actually gonna have soggy mashed potatoes. It's not really a problem. You can look at the potatoes and you can see them dry out on their own if you dump them in big enough chunks.
+
+[20:36] Anyway, so make sure you cook it enough. And then the question is you can tammy it, yay. If you blend it, it will go gummy. Uh food mills, I hate I hate food mills. I really hate them.
+
+[20:47] They're a bear to clean, they suck, they they keep use your term gumming up, right? So you have to reverse and go forward, reverse, go forward. Uh, by the time you finish it, your potatoes are cold because it's taking forever, unless you have one of the big commercial ones. JJ Basil, uh, you know, chef in here in New York, he went to his mom's house, and I think I got told the story on air. Went to his mom's house, she handed him a food mill, opened the front door of their house, and just threw the food mill into the street and then closed it, closed the door again.
+
+[21:14] I hate food mills. Um your immersion blender, as long as you don't overdo it, is not gonna be bad. Also, a paddle, if you do a little pre-mashing paddle in the uh Kitchenade is not gonna kill you. Uh the trick is if you just overdo it, it's gonna go, it's gonna go gummy on you. But I think people are worried about overdoing it and tend to underdo it, so there's still chunks of unmashed potato.
+
+[21:36] What are your thoughts on chunks of unmashed potato? Don't like. Don't don't like. Uh I bought an attachment for a um uh a dynamic uh hand blender, and that attachment is an is a powered like ricer on the end of a stick, and I have to say that thing is amazing. It's uh it's crazy to me that no one in America makes these because it actually works quite well, and I was getting ready to to hate on it.
+
+[22:02] I bought it for testing, thinking I was gonna completely hate on it, and I actually unfortunately ended up liking it. Anyway. Um, and I guess he's saying that either he wants the parsnips to be gummy, Thomas Keller, or he just doesn't find that the parsnips go gummy. What do you think about parsnips, Nastasia? Would you ever choose a parsnip?
+
+[22:21] No. Uh and then this question is for you, Nastasia. Have you heard of Modern Adventure? Basically, they get taste makers to lead cool trips. I almost went to one uh one on one to Vietnam led by Alice and Roman.
+
+[22:34] Here's a link, blah, blah, blah. To one in Republic of Georgia led by Bonnie and uh Is uh Israel Morales. Uh you should look into doing one. Uh I sent it to Rebecca and she thought that you wouldn't be organized enough or something. Well, he's asking you.
+
+[22:49] I would love to no, this is for you. No, it's for you. No. It says to air apparent. That is you.
+
+[22:55] Yeah, I know. So the thing is, is would you like I can make it happen. But would you like what would you do on it on a trip? This is You would have to plan the trip. Yeah.
+
+[23:05] This is for us to take people on the trip. Right, but so what you know he's with what would we do? Yeah what would how would how would you actually do in that environment? First of all, have you ever been on a tour? No.
+
+[23:17] I've never been on a tour either. Like no you would be leading the tour. But then that would require me to go to a place that where I was like a local and that would be New York. No you would be discovering this stuff for the first time. But then how do we know we're gonna discover good stuff.
+
+[23:33] It doesn't matter so fun. Okay. So it's like don't you think it'd be fun? Where would you want to go? I mean there's so many places I haven't been.
+
+[23:43] Why don't ooh what if we took everyone on a tour of the Leatherman's uh route. How boring would the tour is the ther tour is 34 days long. You may not shower you may not wear any machine made clothing your clothing must be made of leather boots sewed by hand and it must weigh 60 pounds. And we're sleeping in caves. Wait what what is the leather boot jeez come on man alright you know what never mind never mind never mind we have a there's a there's a caller who has a question about this caller on the air one question.
+
+[24:19] Uh hey Dave Nastasia uh my name's Chris I'm calling from Philly um I have a pasta question for you um so we've been making fresh pasta for a couple years now with uh primarily freshly milled flour. Uh it's not whole wheat. We're we're sifting off the bran. Um but we're finding that after a coup a couple days in the fridge, uh the pasta starts browning. Um and after doing some research online, um uh it seems like uh enzymatic browning is to blame for that.
+
+[24:59] And uh I I only have access to so many articles online. I keep I keep landing on this one website, uh Research Gate that that has a lot of articles that might be useful to me, but I can't really get to them. Um so I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on how we could combat that um uh in our pasta. And um, you know, we're trying to trying to keep the german, we're trying to to um highlight the flavor of these you know the these local wheats and and fresh grain. So is the browning uh so often with enzymatic browning there's gonna also be kind of characteristic flavor changes.
+
+[25:40] Is it are you getting that as well or no? Or does it taste okay just so it's not as saleable? No, it tastes it tastes as far as as far as we could tell, I mean tastes tastes uh the same on day six as it does on day one. Right. Um but it's just the color is off, so you can't sell it anymore.
+
+[25:58] Well, we can we can sell it, um, but we're learning that um uh our customers uh have a preference towards like lighter colored golden uh noodles. Uh and um, you know, once they try our product, they they love it, but it's it's just funny. Whenever we put a pasta that's like a traditional golden color next to something that's a little bit more brown, uh, you know, the one that's a traditional color uh always sells out first. Yeah, I know. Aren't people the worst?
+
+[26:31] Like in general. Um, so look, so I don't have any specific answers for you, I have to research it. But the what if do you know about the the website Sci Hub? No, I don't. All right, so we've mentioned this, uh someone sent it to me, a couple people sent it to me.
+
+[26:47] Sci hub, uh S C I dash H U B, and I think it's dot TW. It changes around. Uh S E. You what you do is you do your primary uh research, right? Like so you say like you you know, you haven't been able to get to the papers because you don't have access to them.
+
+[27:05] The good news is is that all of the all of the big search engines for uh academic stuff like El Sevier, who by the way I believe make most of their money in like you know, gun running. I just made I didn't make that up, but it's pretty close. Anyway, so they uh their databases are available online, and then when you search for the stuff, they have what's called uh a DOI, DOI number, right? So then you copy that number, the DOI number, and then you go to Sci Hub and you enter it, and then it gets you that paper for free. So uh yeah, so you can get anything, almost almost anything.
+
+[27:41] Awesome. Thank you. That's helpful. Yeah. Now what you it doesn't have like a lot of the books, and so you know, you're gonna want to, you know, get access to probably some of the, you know, pasta books.
+
+[27:52] And it's been a long time since I've read them, and most of those books are written from you know, not from the standpoint of someone who um you know someone who's doing it industrially, and so most of those people were like, Well, what you do is is you bleach and or age your flower. You know what I mean? Uh and that's obviously something you can't do. I wonder whether, you know, if Joel Gargano hears this uh you know from uh Grano Arso I know he makes all of his stuff uh fresh but he doesn't keep it so I don't know whether he has any suggestions. Uh you know I would say that probably some form of antioxidant but I don't know if you'd want to add an antioxidant to it.
+
+[28:29] I don't know which one would be most effective in pasta. But you can if you look up I mean like t I would guess the thing is you're not doing an egg-based pasta because if if you did you could just jack it with uh although vitamin E like tocofirol I don't think that will help with this it's not that kind of an antioxidant I don't think but and you wouldn't want it to go too we are making we are making some uh some some filled pastas as well with egg and it's the same the same story with those. Um you know if you're not well we typically uh vacuum seal the dough right after we make it uh and that that keeps the color for for a while. Uh but then um you know even if it sits out uh outside of the the vacuum bag for you know a few hours um you'll notice the colors start changing pretty quickly so we've just been selling uh freezing those pastas and selling them frozen just to kind of combat that right well that's what I was saying like the well it's the stuff that's in egg right that the tocophirol stuff that's in egg I don't think would prevent the browning side of the oxidation that's gonna help more with fat oxidation I think it's been a long time since I've had to think about it but I don't know that like I I don't know what kind of antioxidant you'd want to add to stop the browning but it's it's it's probably only like if you use Sci hub it's probably only a little bit away, maybe even uh, you know, a couple of papers away. And um, and maybe someone on the uh uh, you know, some because Nastasi, you never had to deal with that stuff, right?
+
+[29:54] Because you were doing frozen, they would cook it and freeze it. Obviously, once you cook it, you're wiping out the enzymes and you're good. Um so you know, maybe someone in the chat group has had this problem, or our friend in New Jersey who's now making chickpea pasta. Um, anyways, so uh let's let me take a look at it. If you also want to uh email your question in.
+
+[30:13] If I find anything in research, I'll I'll uh I'll you know talk about it on the air next time. Cool, and then uh just another quick quick one, I guess. Um up front. She's not having it. Okay, cool.
+
+[30:25] Sounds good. Thanks, guys. Alright, cool. Talk to you soon. All right.
+
+[30:29] Okay. This episode is brought to you by Root Eleven Potato Chi. From the moment Route 11 dropped their first batch of chips back in the early days of 1992, they understood their destiny as a high-quality producer. Instead of succumbing to the frenzy of mass production, they took advantage of their small size and made chipping a personal art form. The payoff was immediate.
+
+[30:58] An incredible potato chip. With a secret recipe and superior ingredients, their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. In this world of uncertainty that we live in, Route 11 potato chips believe comfort food can be just that. Know where your food comes from. To learn more, visit RT11.com.
+
+[31:20] I hope you're enjoying this podcast. And you know, Heritage Radio Network has thousands more. Hi, my name is Linda Palacio, and I'm the host on A Taste of the Past here on HRN. Join us on a weekly journey through culinary history where we explore the when, where, what, and why of food throughout history. You can find a taste of the past wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritageradion.org.
+
+[31:48] Nastasia, do that noise again. No. Dude, come on, do the noise again. No, it has to come from. You tell me to redo stuff all the time.
+
+[31:56] I know. Now you know what it's like. Yeah. This is this she is doing, she was doing her team up from. Okay.
+
+[32:04] In a nutshell. We've already talked about it. He's never heard of it. Which is weird. So the Leatherman was, you know, possibly a French guy.
+
+[32:11] You can look at pictures of him on the internets. And he all he used to carry was he'd carry like a couple of personal items, I think like a book and like this like pot that he had. And people would throw away old boots. He would cut them open and like like sew them with thongs into his leatherman outfit, which weighed like 50, 60 pounds. And he would wear this every day of the year, because he only had the one Leatherman outfit.
+
+[32:38] He would wear it every day of the year, and he would walk in a circle that was 34 days long that went along the coast of Connecticut, then up through Westchester, which is just north of New York City in New York, up like over across to the Connecticut River and back down again around boom, boom, boom 34. And it just so happens most of my adult life has been spent directly on the Leatherman Trail. My mom's house is right near the Leatherman Trail. Uh, you know, uh, you know, New Haven, where, you know, in college was right next to the Leatherman Trail. My place in Connecticut is on the other end of the Leatherman Trail.
+
+[33:14] So like and Nastasia Lopez is uh, you know, where she is on the on the, you know, in Stanford, fancy Stanford. Is uh on the Leatherman Trail. It's on the Leatherman Trail, Stanford? He didn't curve up before then. I don't think he curved up before then.
+
+[33:27] Anyway, so we're gonna go through a memorinic. We all live on the Leatherman Trail and he would never sleep inside ever. In fact, they had to force him to go to the hospital when he was dying of mouth cancer, and he didn't really talk to people, wouldn't respond. The famous pictures of him, he look that there are on the web, he looks incredibly angry because you he didn't like people taking pictures of him. This is like the 1880s.
+
+[33:50] And so like people would give him food to eat and he would sit down and eat it. And so one the one of the most famous pictures. Yeah, he went through Stanford. Yeah, you see him eating something, and what happened is is they had a camera and they put a tarp over it, and they're like, Here, let the man have something to eat. And then they, as he was eating, they pull the tarp off and he's got this look on his face, like, what the and if you messed with him, he would never come back to you again.
+
+[34:11] And it was seen as kind of a unlike most vagrants, at that time people were writing anti-vagrancy laws, and there was a lot of violence actually against vagrants at that time. But specifically in the anti-vagrancy laws that were passed in several localities where the leather man went through, they would make specific uh um what's it called, allowances for the leather man because he was kind of a good luck charm. And I think the reason is is because it was a extremely regular schedule, uh 34 days, I think. So he would just go around. And there are no caves in Connecticut.
+
+[34:41] So calling them caves is a misnomer. Like there are literally like zero caves, but what they we do have is piles of rocks. And some of the piles of rocks form cave like structures where the leather man would live, and scattered all around um the leather man trail, the route, are these things called Leatherman caves where you can go hang out where the Leatherman used to uh used to be. And so Nastasia wants us to do a tour where we sew together leather wood and then we beg for food. And by the way, he would do this, like I say, in the middle of the winter, he would be sleeping outside in the cage.
+
+[35:18] Yeah. If you want to get on board with us, that's gonna be our tour. Leatherman Trail. Leatherman Trail. Oh, the wife.
+
+[35:25] Wow. Yeah. Do you think that do you think people will go for that? Oh, I mean, my dad's retired, and if I there's a good chance if I tell him about this, he's he's just gonna do it with or without you. But let me ask let me ask you a question.
+
+[35:35] So you're wearing a 60-pound or whatever it is, leather outfit. Yeah, for like five, for like five, six, seven, eight, ten years straight, right? So, like, at what point can you no longer smell yourself? Probably pretty quick is gonna be my guess based on uh really New York City. But in other words, like like you become accustomed to certain smells.
+
+[35:55] Like when you're cooking, you know how when you're cooking you like you lose your sense, you have to go in, go out, like you but I don't know, it's gonna be it's gotta be a horrendous. Well, we'll see when we do our tour. The whole point though is you can't be social and do it. Like you and I can't go leather, we can't leather man together. Like we have to be, we have to separate ourselves by a day.
+
+[36:15] Like everyone on the trail has to be separated by a day. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Then then no, no. We're doing it together. Well, that's not it's not supposed to be social.
+
+[36:24] He was a loner. I know. He it was the leather man, not the leather group of people. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[36:31] Uh okay. Uh okay. If we got a question in which I didn't even know this came, so I didn't. I'm reading it for the first time. I didn't uh somehow it ended up on my iPad without me.
+
+[36:42] But I'll read this one. I don't know. Pretty much every oven I've ever owned has a convection setting, but I don't ever recall encountering a recipe that says to use it. Uh I've cussed around with it occasionally and read it read up on a bit, but I don't really have a firm grasp on the point of it. Is it correct to think about it as the heat version of wind chill where increased air movement is essentially nullifying nullifying the temperature and moisture gradient that would otherwise exist between the thing being cooked and the oven environment.
+
+[37:07] Should I be thinking about using it for things where I want to emphasize exterior cooking overcooking through, e.g. roasting asparagus or something like that, where you want to put some color on the exterior without mushing out the interior. Are there any specific use cases where you would recommend it? Thanks. Uh from Patrick.
+
+[37:22] Uh I when if you have a convection setting, I use it uh almost all the time. So the reason um that they don't talk about it a lot is because not everyone has it, and so when you're writing recipes, they're typically not written for having a convection setting. The the it you're correct, it's the heating version of wind chill. The problem is the air inside of an oven is relatively uh static, right? So if you have, let's say you have a pan of water.
+
+[37:50] So for some people when you're cooking things, especially early on in the cook, you have a pan of water in the bottom, so you're creating steam, like let's say you're making bread. That steam and the bubbling and boiling creates enough motion in the ocean, let's say, that you have uh you have a pretty good mixing, right? In a in a convection, in a non-convection environment where you're not having a lot of boiling or a lot of movement on the inside of the oven, the air can get relatively stagnant, and especially if there's not an open flame, which there very rarely is, right? It can get fairly static and so you s uh stagnant. And so you can have a very large uh temperature gradient at the surface of the product you're cooking where the moisture is evaporating off of it.
+
+[38:29] Convection oven just mixes that, so it gets rid of that, one. Two, by moving more hot air over the surface of your product, right, you're increasing the heat transfer rate quite a bit. Now, almost all of the time you want that to happen. So it just makes things cook much more uh rapidly. The there are exceptions, like I guess in a braze, you don't want it, or if you're worried about something cooking too quickly, uh then you then you wouldn't do it.
+
+[38:57] But what it's doing is just accelerating the rate at which you can put uh energy in. The ultimate of this is called an impingement oven. So if you've heard of like um oh what is it, turbochef, things like this, it's like being like in the wake of a jet engine. There's throwing so much air, hot air across it, that the air that the hot air is constantly fresh. You're getting so much more heat input that it can cook things radically faster.
+
+[39:22] The only other downside to a convection oven that you get is that I mean, again, sometimes you don't want convection, it can dry out the surfaces of things quickly, but it can actually blow things around. So certain delicate pastries, if you have a high convection setting, uh you can like blast the top of it down, uh, or you know, certain light things can rattle around the oven. So when you're doing dehydration of light things and you turn a convection setting on, if the convection that's why some things have low convection, high convection, uh, because things that are more delicate or things that are gonna get rattled about, you want to put uh a kind of lighter convection on it. But in general, people that have convection use the convection um the majority of the time, I would say. Um okay.
+
+[40:03] So what's the one that you wanted to meet? Uh that one. Oh. So Steve wrote in from uh Los Angeles, where we're gonna be next week. Steve, you did not provide enough of a uh here's what here's what you said.
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+[40:19] I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish. I got to try some of this. An Amberjack kompache. Well, okay, Steve. I'm happy that you got to try it.
+
+[40:36] Maybe it was a poem. It's like a tone poem. Yeah, it's a poem. But I will say this. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish.
+
+[40:49] I got to try some of this. An Amberjack. Kampachi. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:58] I think it is a poem. I think it is a poem. And maybe it doesn't require any further elaboration except to say this. I think there are many many more people now who are hip to the fact that fresh fish isn't the best fish. So there are some cultures, there are some preparations where you want to eat the fish as soon as you kill it.
+
+[41:22] In fact, obviously, there are whole recipes and cultures built on live fish at uh at restaurants. Um, but for the majority, especially for things like sushi, right? You want the stuff to go into rigor mortise, back out, and then go a little further to get kind of the optimum texture. And um this is definitely true of salmon, it's definitely true of tuna, true of most fish, that it's not that there's an optimum day uh after after rigor, like first of all, an optimum day after death and an optimum day after rigor mortis. And then there's a very every species of fish, and also depending on the season and how it was caught, how it was treated, there's a very kind of narrow, perfect window.
+
+[42:06] And like great sushi chefs uh, you know, for years have known that it's not, it's not the freshest fish, it's the fish that is at the exact right moment that it wants to be served. But it's too complicated to explain that to most people, so they just say fresh. And I remember I forget his name, but there was this, there's this guy, very famous um chef in Kyoto, I forget who it was, because it was 10 years ago, and his name just blanked out of my head. But he was telling us that he went in and he ages his fish as well, you know, to get it exactly at the date he wants. He also used to do um, he would do like also pressed age sushi, where even after you make it, you like age it on combu uh compressed for a Zaba sushi, you know, mackerel sushi, where he would age it for uh a day to get that texture up.
+
+[42:50] Uh but he won he was he hated commercial refrigeration because he thought it messed with his fish. So he would buy commercial, very modern commercial refrigerators and then turn them off and then just put blocks of ice in them, and that's how he did his fish. I was like a classic, classic. So anyway, Steve, thank you for your poem. Uh also I heard from somebody that they really liked your wedding advice and that you should do more of that.
+
+[43:13] Well, uh someone needs to ask me questions that I feel uh, you know, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh passionate about, passionate about. Yeah. Yeah, passionate about. Uh Kirk wrote in, been a fan of the show for years.
+
+[43:26] I currently work in a nonprofit in Georgia that helps people who work in commercial food service. This year, as part of our James Beard Award, we are paying for nationwide suicide prevention uh training for anyone who signs up in the month of May. It's not a cooking related question, but uh given uh the show's proclivity for data, the commercial food service industry has the second highest rate of uh suicidal first. I don't I don't know. He didn't say uh highest rate of suicidal ideation.
+
+[43:52] The uh by the way, the study, if you want to look it up, uh, is Han et al. 2017. Uh, and the industry had a 54% increase in suicides from 2012 to 2015, according to Peterson et al. in 20 uh 18. Uh QPR training, question, persuade, and refer, is considered the gold standard in suicide prevention training and equips people with skills needed to respond to someone in crisis.
+
+[44:16] It takes about 30 to 45 minutes to complete. Uh, if you'd like to share that on the show, I'd be grateful. Um you know, like I I think we should take it. I run a bar, you know. Uh you should.
+
+[44:27] I should take it. I mean, I think like in this industry, like, A, there's a kind of there's a lot of young people, there's also a lot of people living uh lot of people living paycheck to paycheck. Um, there's a lot of people that need help. So yeah, I think I I maybe I think I should. I'll take this to the bar and we will try to schedule.
+
+[44:45] We'll try to schedule this. I think this is uh is a great thing. I think you know, anything you can do to help the you know, help the health of your help the health of your crew or anyone in your industry, you should take the opportunity to do so. I mean, um it's such a tough industry anyway. And I know in the past, kind of the the you know, the attitude of the kitchen can prevent you from, you know, especially the attitude and stop Nastasi, I know you you and I talk about this all the time, like you know, I sliced my hand in half and I just taped it together with duct tape and then you know cinched it on the flat top to glue it back and then got back to work.
+
+[45:23] So you know that mentality, which is unhealthy, right? Uh that mentality, I think kind of also bleeds over into you know, not wanting to say that you have a problem. And in fact, it can get um it it it becomes difficult because usually in the restaurant industry, the kitchens and uh restaurants and bars are so um have such staffing problems, right? Because we can't overstaff uh but if we understaff we're ruined. So there's such a there's such a stigma, there's such a disincentive to say that you have a problem, because if you have a problem and you know you have to miss shifts, then there's a huge um there's a pressure on you from above either to like not give you the good shifts anymore, or and it's just it's a straight business problem.
+
+[46:15] And so I think there's a lot that needs to be done in training people who are going through the problems, need help with uh, you know, they're having suicidal suicidal ideation, but there's probably maybe this training addresses it, I don't know. There also I think has to be training on the managerial side of how to help people who are you know going through this without the anger that you get when you have someone on your staff who's having problems and therefore is probably calling out or has other issues. And so I think it's definitely something that um you know that is problematic in the kitchen, something should be looked at. What do you think, Nastasia? The first industry is arts and entertainment, then it's food.
+
+[46:57] Arts and entertainment. Why? Does creative people in general are are are uh have other you know demons? I guess so. Maybe that's why we all get along.
+
+[47:06] Seriously. What? Well, who's leading well like artists people, chefs do events together a lot, you know? Yeah, yeah. Don't you think?
+
+[47:17] I don't know. Uh John Riper, haven't heard from him in a while. I like him. Yeah. Uh this is the question he has.
+
+[47:22] Acme Ice Cream is a tiny company named after the even tinier town of Acme, Washington. Population 246. So kind of not a good name. Acme, like, should be the top, should be like the biggest city in Washington. Should definitely dwarf Walla Walla.
+
+[47:36] Isn't that the best name? Walla Walla, that's the cartoon name. Oh, by the way, this weekend I went to the New York Philharmonic, did Looney Tunes music. Oh, why did you go to that? Because uh, I don't know, it was I don't know.
+
+[47:49] I was I was told to go. But they uh so they played Looney Tunes cartoons and the New York Philharmonic played along with it was cool. It was pretty cool. Although I have to say Poker go? No, come on, please.
+
+[47:59] Dax went. So we went and it's like how was the last time you rewatched Looney Tunes? Problematic stuff. I know. Problematic not just the ones that they don't play anymore.
+
+[48:11] When I was a kid, they stopped playing the ones from World War II that were anti-Japanese. They kept playing the anti-German ones longer. But like uh since, you know, since you know the the you know of Me Too started happening since it started coming out, you look at Pepe Le Pew and you're like, oh, that's not funny. Like Pepe Le Pew is basically forcing himself on this cat. When I'm a kid, I didn't really think about it.
+
+[48:35] But I was like, this is not, you know, not not a s should not be a source of amusement, a guy forcing himself on this cat. Also some other like some some stereotype and they were playing this now, and I'm like, didn't you think maybe this one's or maybe it just gets to be a car cultural artifact? I don't know. But the music was great. Uh Acme okay, sorry.
+
+[48:54] Acme Washington. But what makes Acme interesting is that their ice cream is way denser than anything else on the market. For example, their products are 30% denser than Hagen Dah's, even, allowing for the actual size of Hagandah's fake pint containers. Uh oh so even allowing for the actual size of Hagendah's fake pint containers. Ac Acme's explanation is that they make their ice cream without adding air.
+
+[49:15] But that's not true. That's just a lie. I'm sorry, but that has to be a lie. But I find that even minimal churning creates a product a lot less dense than theirs. Do you have any guess how they do it?
+
+[49:26] And why aren't bigger outfits doing something similar? Because what Acme is churning out, ha ha ha ha, is addictively good. John Riper. So here's the answers. One.
+
+[49:38] If you want, so I've said this before for ice cream people, like overrun is the amount of air that is in the uh ice cream. So a hundred percent overrun means that uh you have added the same volume of air as you have of ice cream base, right? So that that is, you know, typical like crappy ice cream will be running at like 100% overrun. Um, like a good, like high quality super premium ice cream will have 30% uh 30%, 40%, 50% overrun in there, right? Now, uh frozen custard, which is about the densest thing you can buy on the market, and this is what we were talking about before about Carvel.
+
+[50:25] We gotta get her in, that lady who invented Fudgy the Whale. Yeah. We need to get her in. Call up Seth, and I need to get the lady who invented Fudgy the Whale in because, and we'll buy a Fudgy the Whale and we'll just have a whole Fudgy the Whale party. For those of you that don't know, Fudgy the Whale was the genius creation at Tom Carvel's uh uh ice cream store to use the leftover soft serve in the machine, and his chef, I forget her name, uh, she created Fudgy the Whale as a result, which is one of the we one of the great things, Fudgy the Whale.
+
+[50:54] Anyway, so uh where was I on this? Oh. So uh Carvel, very dense, low overrun. So the densest stuff that you can get is out of a frozen custard machine. Uh Ross Stolting is the one that used to make the make a frozen cut custard, and that is the machine that you can just buy on right now, I know of that makes the lowest overrun.
+
+[51:15] And the overrun, even in a machine like that, is 15 to 20%. So that is about as low as you can go uh and have it be dense and still have the texture be okay. Because if you made it with 0% air, what that would mean is is that it was a hundred percent uh solid, and if it was a hundred percent solid, it would be the equivalent of freezing uh you know ice cream base into a solid block, and that's no good, right? So, like obviously you need some sort of um churning and and air incorporation. So um it was just a question of how much.
+
+[51:50] So on the frozen custard side with the Ross machine, it's a continuous freezer. And in a continuous freezer, you can dial the overrun very much down because there's not a lot of uh post-agitation. Uh in a batch freezer, when you what you're doing is is that if you look at a batch freezer, there are um there's scraper blades that are scraping the stuff off the outside of the cylinder, and then those are attached to the central shaft, and then that shaft has dashers on it, and that agitates it, right? So you're simultaneously scraping the uh ice crystals off and then whipping air into it with the dashers. So you can adjust the speed of the dashers to adjust overrun somewhat.
+
+[52:30] You can also uh if you draw it, if you freeze very quickly and draw early, you get lower overrun. Versus if you um if you uh let it harden and then keep churning it, as you keep churning it when it's still getting stiff, you're whipping more air into it because it's it's it's stiffer, it can hold more air, and you're beating more air into it. So you can adjust the overrun somewhat based on the operation parameters of the machine, i.e. the temperature and how you know and uh how long you churn it after it after it you know gets to a uh you know a particular stiffness, but also you can adjust the overrun with the mix itself or by getting something like a continuous freezer, like a like and by the way, the Ross the Ross uh now stolting Ross uh frozen custard machine is really cool, not just because it has amazingly low overrun, but also because it's really the only thing you can buy that is a continuous freezer that's operated on a small basis. So you can make the texture of ice cream that you know a kind of a bigger firm with a real continuous freezer would make, but on a much smaller scale.
+
+[53:31] The actual transit time from the beginning of putting the ice cream base into a frozen custard machine and getting it out the front is like a minute or two. So you're talking about batch time. So the the longer a batch time is, the kind of bigger the ice crystals are, and also the more opportunity you have after it's frozen to whip air into it. So when you have a batch time that's down in the range of like one or two minutes, you're talking about some really the ability you can get more air into it if you want, but the ability to get a very, very dense, uh very fine crystal product. So if you've never had uh ice cream out of a frozen custard machine, I think you're missing something.
+
+[54:09] But the reason a lot of people don't do it is just real expensive. You know, air, super cheap. Sell people air, super cheap. Um we have no more time? I was just about to get to the bloody Mary pickle question.
+
+[54:21] Alright, well, next week we'll get to the bloody merry pickle question. Oh, wait. Because we're gonna do a show from LA or not? Yes, we are. So next week, Nastasia has been furiously carving her apple headed dolls.
+
+[54:29] But now listen, I need you guys nobody cares, according to Jack. Nastasi and I were in a meeting once, and they were trying to tell us that we couldn't do any outside businesses together. That Nastasi and I could not have any outside business ventures other than the one that we were doing with them. And literally, Nastasi and I were like, what if we want to start an applehead business? You're gonna stop us from starting an applehead business?
+
+[54:56] And we're like What? They're like, what the hell's an applehead? But it is true that Nastasi and I appreciate Appleheads more than the average folk. Yeah, and screw you if you don't like them. But here's the question I have for you.
+
+[55:08] If you're gonna have an applehead garnish on your cocktail, which you will if you come to Harvard and Stone next What day? Tuesday. If you come to Harvard Stone next Tuesday and you're one of the first lucky people that show up, you will have an apple head garnish. My question is this. Oh yeah.
+
+[55:24] Well, they're not googly. Well, they're technically not googly because they're static. They don't Google. Right. Yeah.
+
+[55:33] But one, Nastasi's using googly eyes, but the googly eyes. They're not googly. Oh my goodness. They look like googly eyes. They are a big, like egg white looking thing with a black pupil in them, like a googly eye, but they're just statically.
+
+[55:45] So then why don't we have some googly-eyed ones? And why don't we have some that you want? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think we should use it. Mine will be from a different applehead family.
+
+[55:52] Yours will be from a different applehead family. I think we should use traditional, just like pieces of clove, not pieces, clean cloves as the eyes, because A, they're creepier, and B, that's like legit, like using cloves in Apple as the eye for the apple head is legit cake goog cake decorating googly I know, but there's they're garish. They're garish bearish they're garish compared to a clove okay so we will have both well because we can have because we live in America I thought I thought I was the patriotic I know I gotta I gotta get you know you go you know now now you're so pro-America when it comes to putting googly eyes on the apple heads but that's not even the big deal Nastasia wants to put wait for it fake hair on like on like polyester fake hair on the apple heads and I was like no if it's a garnish for a drink it should all be edible it should all be food based right and don't please Aaron Stanley said you're right so I agree. Whoa whoa whoa me you call me an a-hole but if Karen says all right whatever but anyway but tweet on that in but if don't suggest hair that melts do not suggest cotton candy do not do not suggest cotton candy. Alright so what nothing oh by the way get this can we use like flowers like are they edible flowers or poisonous?
+
+[57:21] No. Wait which no they don't have to taste good but they have to be non poisonous. No like an a flower type hair you mean like a lay like like tuberos or like that's fine. Or hay hey Matt what do you think? Hay is not edible for humans.
+
+[57:39] No I know but you're not gonna like if it horses if it fell into your drink is it going to poison you? No. That's or is it gonna be gross like real hair? No. So it's gotta be something like that.
+
+[57:50] Real hair. Like wig. Alright, check this out. Dax walking down the street the other day. Dog, I don't know when I want to talking about this.
+
+[57:57] I said it's had to see what people think about this. Dog bites him. Oh no. Yeah, bites him. Then Dax, who's never been bitten before, right?
+
+[58:07] Like it it it bruised the hell out of him, maybe marginally broke the skin. On his leg, bit his leg. What kind of dog? A big old dog. Bit his leg.
+
+[58:16] He doesn't know, oh, you have to get a picture of the dog's tag or get the dog's tag to make sure that it's got its shots, because but I don't know if you know this, people. If you get rabies, like that's it. Like even modern technology, whatever, you're gonna die. So if a dog bites you, you need to make sure it has the tags on it. And if it doesn't have the tags, you have to assess what the risk is because you can get a vaccine, but if you don't have the vaccine and you are become symptomatic for rabies, that's it.
+
+[58:43] You're toast. So um, even today. Uh so anyway, so Dax doesn't get the information. So we detective, find out who it is, we go locate the guy, and instead of being like, first of all, an adult's dog bites a kid. It's very complicated because in my co-op they don't like dogs.
+
+[59:00] I have two dogs, right? So I don't want anything bad to happen to dogs. I don't want to start a fuss, right? But if your dog bites a kid and you're an adult, get the telephone number of the parents and call them. You know what I mean?
+
+[59:13] Like, first of all, be sorry. You're just like, oh, you okay? Okay, goodbye. And then like we found him, and he was like, Well, you know, your son, uh, your son had a skateboard and the dog's afraid of skateboard. Like, you are in New York City, sir.
+
+[59:25] Like, it's not like my son skated up to your freaking dog and like, you know, and like kicked the back of the skateboard and pop the front into your dog's face. My son was had already stopped the skateboard, kicked it up, grabbed the skateboard, was waiting at the light because I've taught him not to skateboard across the street. He was walking across the street, and the dog walks up and bites him, and this is what the man says to me. He is lucky. This man is lucky because I just wanted to avoid him.
+
+[59:52] I got his, I got the tags. My son's not gonna get rabies, it's all great. But can you imagine what if you had gotten a hold of him? Or what if Jen had gotten a hold of him and he had blamed Dax for having a skateboard, and I think I would get bit. People.
+
+[1:00:05] People who live outside of New York City. I'm talking to you, mom, my mom, right? You have dogs and you don't socialize them because they don't walk next to people. And this dog used to be a California suburban dog and just moved into New York after the California wildfires. I found out later from another person on the street who said that these dogs are known unfriendly dogs.
+
+[1:00:25] You must please socialize your dogs because if they ever end up in an environment where you're walking down the street on a leash, right, and your dog bites. Now, luckily, I mean, like I told, you know, Dax and I were both like, I don't want to be, we don't want to be the cause of some dog getting put to sleep because it's not on the dog, it's on the owner. I don't want that to be on us. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against I would hate that uh because things happen sometimes.
+
+[1:00:52] But people, socialize your dogs. Cooking issues. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com/slash Heritage.
+
+[1:01:43] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to learn more about our 10-year anniversary celebrations happening all year long, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:02:14] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world better, fairer, and more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like. Tell your friends.
+
+[1:02:33] And please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the Heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Foster Sundry, a specialty grocery located in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Have you ever wanted to open a restaurant, launch your own food brand, or dive into the ever-changing world of food media? Well, buckle up. Join us for Aspiration to Action, a special live podcast on Monday, June 3rd at Haven's Kitchen in Manhattan. Zara Tangora and Bretton Scott, hosts of Life's a Banquet, will lead us through tales of the good, the bad, and the transformative.
+
+[0:30] Featuring food world innovators and HRN hosts Dana Cowan, host of Speaking Broadly, Eli Sussman, host of The Line, along with his brother Max, and Alison Kane, host of In the Sauce, in conversation with Jenny Britton Bauer. Light refreshments will be provided by Paris Gourmet, Wolfer Estate Vineyard, and to Honey. Get your tickets before they sell out by going to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash action. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. That's a weird intro, Nastasia.
+
+[1:02] It's going from like it's going from like from Cherish. We'll do it. We'll do it. Okay, we'll do the intro. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:14] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live! Where am I? I'm in Hollywood Hills. We're not on the Heritage Radio Network yet, because we're recording pre-recorded, and we're in the Hollywood Hills. We're coming to you with a special I Love LA Los Angeles tour of cooking issues.
+
+[1:28] We're as close to the Hollywood sign as you can possibly be. That's right. And we were uh introduced, by the way, uh people we have with us today. We have, of course, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:37] Yeah, good. All right. We have uh we have Rebecca, the Boondogler, our intrepid marketing guru, the Boondogler. You're not even gonna say hello? I'm shaking my head right now.
+
+[1:51] And that's all you're gonna get. I can see you, you. You're not shaking your head. You're lying to the listening audience. I was giving you death eyes.
+
+[1:59] Oh, death Eyes, Death Eyes. I appreciate that. We got uh Jack Shram, head bartender, Jack Shram. What are you going to do? Hello.
+
+[2:05] Yeah, how you doing? So this is basically along with Austin Henley, who's at uh uh Major Domo out here in LA. This was the team that we've been running around doing things like Harvard and Stone, blah, blah, blah. We'll talk about it later. We do not have Matt in the booth because Matt lives in New York.
+
+[2:19] Instead, and then we'll get into the story, Nastasia. We have Jeff in the booth. How are you doing? I'm well, right? Yeah, and we are at his house in the Hollywood Hills.
+
+[2:26] This might be the closest house to the Hollywood sign that exists on planet Earth. True or false. That's true. Yeah. And this is all and here's why, even though it's a hard to go into like, you know, uh, you know, a jet engine wine intro out of Cherish.
+
+[2:40] The reason, the reason Nastasia like chooses to stay at this house when we come out here is not just the Hollywood sign, but because the association actually like hung out here when they were doing the album that had songs such as Cherishon, right? That's true. Yeah. And one other bit of information is that David Crosby was introduced to Graham Nash at a party at this house by Mama Cass, who lived next door. So some gnarly she didn't she didn't where where did she choke on the sand on the baloney sandwich?
+
+[3:09] Not here. Okay. So I had to bring it back to cooking. I always have to bring it back to cooking. So my my point is is that some gnarly, gnarly, gnarly stuff has taken place in this in this building, true?
+
+[3:21] I mean, it has to have been like that era of folk. I mean, right? I mean, this the party stories. When did you get involved in this house? Uh botted in 87.
+
+[3:28] So, like where it's we're like, who was living there before? Was it still like rock and roll types, or was it? Uh, they used to have uh orgies here, actually, I think, on Saturday nights. That's what I heard. That that makes sense.
+
+[3:41] That makes sense. A lot of windows in the background. Unfortunately, we're checking out the bigger. A lot of it on Friday. What?
+
+[3:44] All right. Dave is so upset right now. So uh so Nastasi, you want to tell them why we're out in LA, what we were doing? Sure, yeah. We're taking over two bars.
+
+[4:00] Um, and then we're doing a bunch of spin-sall demos, and that's it, right? So we were uh first we were at Harvard and Stone. How'd the apple heads turn out? Great, I think. So for those of you that don't know, I don't know if if you how how you'd be hearing this and not knowing this, like Nastasi and I have been for many years obsessed with the apple head doll phenomenon.
+
+[4:20] So Nastasi's like, we're gonna do appleheads, we're gonna do it, we're gonna do apple heads for these drinks. And I was like, I don't really have time, so she's like, crap on you. I'm gonna carve every I carved two out of all of the apple heads I carve two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I dehydrate them for you those does.
+
+[4:36] Yeah. And then we we're all then why I didn't want to do it all. Well, Nastasia believes that there is some sort of stereotype of like a half Mexican, half like Russian woman who moves from the Los Angeles area to New York to the west side and just sits at home all day making apple heads. To her, this is like a valid stereotype that she didn't want to be, so she wanted me to make cats, yeah. How is it related to collecting cats?
+
+[5:04] You have a boyfriend. This this is getting deep into a non cooking area that I don't know if you want to get into. So the question everyone had on the apple heads. So what you do is you take an apple, Stasi, why don't you take given the procedure? You take an apple, right?
+
+[5:16] Carve peel it. You peel it, yeah. Then you carve it. A bunch of cuts. Right.
+
+[5:18] So it look like a face. Ish, right? Then you dip it in lemon juice. Didn't you roll it in salt? Salt after.
+
+[5:26] Oh, lemon juice, then salt, right? And then you semi-core it. And you we put it in the you can. So back in the day, they used to have a Vincent Price shrunken head maker that was you just like ripped apart your your parents' lamp and put over a hundred watt light bulb, the Vincent Price shrunken head maker with the apple, and you did one at a time. I have an excaliber dehydrator, so I took a bunch of copper line and made hangers, and we could do like I think we could do like 16 at once or more.
+
+[5:51] That last batch you did the whole batch in the dehydrator. She says, Let it go. You rip it out. Nastasia, I told Nastasia, I thought we should use clove eyes for it because you know that's the legit thing, clove eyes, and uh, you know, that's old school. And she's like, No, I'm going to the cake decorating shop and buying uh, you know, they're she's not googly.
+
+[6:08] Okay, they're not googly, but that's just because the pupils don't move. Edible cake eyes. The best thing I saw this week was Nastasia googling the phrase cake hair. So we ended up, and then she was gonna put these fake hats on. We ended up actually not needing hats.
+
+[6:25] Once the googly eyes are on them, they don't need hats really. Some got hats and they look great. Rebecca was the stylist. I found a new calling, which is just putting a variety of small hats on apple heads, depending on the personality and what speaks to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:39] And we had several that looked like Freddie Krueger, one that looked like Donald Trump. Oh, yeah. One that looked like Jay-Z. It did not look like Jay-Z. You were just inspired by Jay-Z when you were carving, I would say would be more accurate.
+
+[6:53] It didn't look anything like Jay-Z. Jack. There was a minor semblance. The guy, that photo. Anyway.
+
+[7:04] Anyway. So uh, so then we just make a cut in the bottom, and then we put that on the glass. We made a special cocktail for it because we were sick of making banana justino. So we did fashion fruit. We did old fashioned, which is you take uh passion fruit, you mix it in with uh what did we mix it into?
+
+[7:21] What do we use? We use plantation here. Yeah, we use plantation original dark. Yeah, mix it in, add the enzymes, spin it out, dope it with a little brown sugar, pour it over a rock, garnish with an apple head, and you know it's a good drink. It was a good drink.
+
+[7:35] Good drink. Everyone, can I eat the apple? You could try. It's not not funny. I don't think anyone ate one.
+
+[7:42] It's not poisonous. No, but anyway, you'll never get that at the bar. Why? Because Jack, we do not make apple heads. Or garnish.
+
+[7:52] Or non-functional garnish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Twist. That seems like a pretty functional garnish to me. It was so fantastic.
+
+[7:57] It gives you nightmares when you go home at night. That yeah, yeah. I don't know. So we sold all of those. We ripped through all of our drinks, like super quick.
+
+[8:07] We sold, yeah, we sold all the m more drinks than we had planned. It was great. So busy. We were the busiest session that they've done there. Nice.
+
+[8:15] Harvard and Stone. Old friends, great regulars came through, like Eric Tsai, who has been a Booker and Axe regular for years, and now he lives out here. It was so nice to see him. Yeah. It's great.
+
+[8:26] And uh, you know who came uh from last week? Steve from Los Angeles, and I will read his poem. Oh, yes, yes. This is now the Cooking Issues poem. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish.
+
+[8:41] I got to try some of this. An Amberjack. Kompache. Steve from Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:50] Wow. That's really powerful. It's like, he came to the bar and he was like, alright, alright. I'm like, we're just gonna keep reading that dang poem. Uh all right.
+
+[9:04] So uh we didn't do any other new drinks, right? Although we ran out scroll. We ran wait, we ran out of all of our drinks. So Nastasa and I at midnight, you have a grocery store out here on the West Coast people called Ralph's. I don't know if you know this, but back where I come from, that means vomit.
+
+[9:19] So, like for the entire rest of the trip, we're like, Oh yeah, yeah, Ralph's. We're gonna go to Ralph's. Is that also West Coast? Does Ralph mean throw up in West Coast? Yeah.
+
+[9:30] Okay, okay. Uh we thought we were gonna do blender versions of Thai basil daiquaries, which I know, I know. They're only like 88% as good as a real Thai basil dairy with liquid nitrogen, but they didn't have any Thai basil. And we were in Thai town. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:43] Well, closed. You're at but the point is is that, you know, like you go to like like a crap, a crappy grocery store. Uh, I'm not boosting New York, but you go to a crappy grocery store in New York. It happens to be in like a Latin neighborhood. They have the goods.
+
+[9:59] I can get the Latin ingredients there. You go to uh in Thai town, and they don't have Thai basil. I was disappointed. It was what did we make instead? So we just grabbed whatever Mezcal Aaron Polski had on the back bar.
+
+[10:14] I think it was a decoration. How long had that stuff pin there? Is he pouring that stuff? Yeah, it was illegal. Yeah, and then we just uh uh we did uh what was it uh cilantro and parsley, which was the only green thing they had in quantities large enough.
+
+[10:27] We made an orange syrup. We talked about orange syrup here before, right? So instead of just bricks it up to 50. Right. So instead of instead of um instead of acid adjusting new orange juice up to become the same thing as uh lime juice, I wanted to do split citrus.
+
+[10:40] So we had lime juice already. We got some uh fresh OJ, and I think it's 780 something like that grams of sugar per kilo of orange juice equals 50 bricks because remember, orange juice has like 10.5, 10.6% sugar in it. And we used that syrup and we did it was good. Yeah. It's a great trick.
+
+[10:59] Blender model. Yeah. Yeah. What do we call that thing? Green.
+
+[11:02] What do you guys uh can I have a tea? We only have green. You only have green left. You can have green. And then you started making daiquaries.
+
+[11:10] Well, no, we left at that point. But the point is, where'd we go? We were gonna we were gonna do uh we were gonna do uh what are we gonna do? Milkwash what? We're gonna do just like a milkwash daiquiri, right?
+
+[11:22] Like what was the the the backup what I don't know? I think we're gonna use that orange syrup as a milkwash. Anyway, so then yesterday, which was the next day, we did a spinzall training with the folks at score. We're not allowed to talk about the new place, right? No?
+
+[11:34] No? Yes, no. I think we can just talk about more so what you guys are playing around with. I don't think, you know. So we did a strawberry milk, seeing whether or not we could spin the solids from strawberries out of milk to make some sort of a milk I don't know what they wanted to do.
+
+[11:46] Strawberry milk analog. But it broke and we got strawberry cheese. Strawberry cheese and strawberry whey. That was really delicious. It shakes and foams up.
+
+[11:54] Yeah. And then we showed them uh good old-fashioned milk syrup, because they wanted a a heat stable, acid stable milk syrup. So we made milk syrup, which I've told you a million times, but it's equal parts sugar milk, blended in a blender, not too hard, you don't want to over foam it. Then once it's dissolved, you add for every liter of syrup, you add one ounce of 15% citric acid solution or about two ounces of lime juice, you blend it, you'll see it thicken up, and then once it thickens up, you've I call it like you know like par baking, I call it par breaking. You're par breaking the milk so that when you're using it in your application, it won't really curdle out and break.
+
+[12:33] And so they want to do a hot we actually it worked. We did juice plus milk syrup, steamed it. It steamed and held, and then added it to hot coffee, but Jack's like, nah, I'm gonna do cold. No, this is gonna be much more delicious. Cold.
+
+[12:44] It was cold boo. Oh, Dave, get into we also went to the farmer's market. Yes, that's true. Because we cooked some dinner last night. Jack was like, I want to buy rabbits.
+
+[12:52] We bought two rabbits. Guess how much two rabbits cost people? Guess how much two rabbits costs? $100. They were like $80.
+
+[12:59] Yeah, it's like $40 a rabbit. They're big. They were very big and they were delicious. So they fed what, 10 people? We didn't have a lot of time because we were doing a lot of work outside.
+
+[13:08] So we uh the way we cooked them was we spatchcocked them, you know, like cut them, we opened them up, cut them down the on the inside out, made them flat. They kind of like they still look a lot like rabbits when they're flattened out though. Yeah. I guess they look like a cross between a rabbit and a chicken when they're flattened out like that, because I'm so used to thinking of chicken spatchcocks. But then we did salt, pepper, mustard, garlic, oregano, lime, uh, lemon juice, oil, right?
+
+[13:33] Yeah. Anything else? You said garlic, yeah. Say garlic. Rub that in, let it sit for sugar, a little sugar.
+
+[13:39] Just a challenges. Yeah. So we put a little sugar in, spash cock, let that sit while we uh cooked our delicious, hyper expensive 20 freaking dollars worth of mushrooms that could fit inside of a small lunch bag. They were very good. You know what's really good out here is strawberry land.
+
+[13:54] Like all those people, I'm sorry, Union Square, uh, you know, green market with your tri stars and all that. You come over here, and the strawberries and the farmer's market here. Shout out to the over loving crap. They kick the ever loving crap out of what we can get. Am I right, Jack?
+
+[14:06] Oh, yeah. What do you think, Stas? You like those things? Oh my god. And we had uh the Mandarin quads.
+
+[14:10] Oh my god, the Mandarin quats. Now Nastasi and I have been to Mandarin Quat Heaven, Gene Lester's ranch in Watsonville, California. Worst trip ever. What? It was because Nastasia had, oh my God.
+
+[14:22] For the two-hour lunch or the hour and a half lunch, we had 250 kinds of citrus, and she's never going to let me forget that she had to, that we didn't bring our lunch, and they brought a lunch. So we ate like a like a piece of rye bread. And we've heard this terrible stories. And we're yeah, we were told that salt's not allowed in restaurants in New York anymore. We're like, I'm pretty sure that's not true.
+
+[14:43] I I work in this business. Anyway, so uh she's never let me forget that, but you know, I'll never forget it as a fantastic experience because I got to taste 200 varieties of citrus, including a lot of those kind of Mandarinquat things, but they weren't necessarily in high season, and uh, we only had a couple of them. And I don't have I mentioned this on air. If you eat only citrus for an entire day. Have I mentioned this on air before, Nastasia?
+
+[15:09] Probably. Okay, this is gonna get a little gross. I apologize. But you know how people say that guy thinks his his what does he say? What doesn't stink?
+
+[15:18] He just doesn't stick. He thinks his poop doesn't stick with okay. I eat nothing but citrus, hard citrus. And when I go to eat something, I don't mess around. Jack's the same way.
+
+[15:26] It's true. You don't mess around. No, you eat. I I it came out of me almost like it went in. Pure citrus juice.
+
+[15:34] And I was like, this is amazing. This is the best day of my life. Anyways, uh, still working on the human clarified cocktail. We can't get in. It's too much, too much, too much.
+
+[15:43] So uh we bought those delicious. What do you remember her name? The the farmer? No, I don't, and it's killing it. Who did the Mandarin quads?
+
+[15:50] They are delicious because they're they're more sour than a Kumquat, slightly thicker skin, and I would say twice as big in every dimension, so four times the volume of a kumquat. Real good. Real good. What else do we buy? Oh, I bought some delicious dates.
+
+[16:04] I forget the name of the date farmer, but uh California hybrid date. Everyone buys the medule dates, right? Because they're delicious. And then occasionally people will go buy, you know, deadlets or zahitis or some uh other kind of date. But, and these are all the like you know, the the well-known kind of dates that were brought in from uh places like Morocco, places like Iraq, all these places, uh Saudi Arabia, uh, but there are some amazingly delicious California hybrid dates that are kind of micro because they've never been turned into big kind of date production.
+
+[16:35] So the one we had yesterday was called Empress. So the next time you're in the Southern California area, I know it it's it's gonna be date season when it's the end of summer is actual date season, right? For fresh dates for new crop dates. I think it's the end of summer, anyways. Uh I encourage you when you're in the area to search out real date farmers, find and ask the medules are great, whatever, but find some of their cool hybrid dates because although medules are super silky and super sweet and big and they're delicious, like there's a variety of textures from bready to silky.
+
+[17:06] Uh the skin can be it can be firm, it can pop, it can have more of a candied texture. So there's a lot, uh there's a lot to do. Did you like that thing that the guy made a seat with the cacao nib? Yeah, it was good. So this guy, he's like, he's like, Don't eat the date.
+
+[17:18] Don't eat the date. Rip out the pit, stick this cacao nib in, and then eat it. It was good. It was good. But I think I would rather just have chocolate and dates.
+
+[17:26] Yes. Yeah. Okay. It'll be the best piece of chocolate in the city. So I don't know if you know this.
+
+[17:35] Like, I'm a cheap man, and Nastasia Lopez is a cheap woman. This is perhaps how we got into business together because we're cheap people, and but the messed up thing is that we're cheap about different things. And we're also, we're also both of us, if you don't know us, uh right or wrong, Sas, so far. Like, we're both willing to do unreasonable things for minor reasons. True.
+
+[17:59] So like Nastasia didn't want to deal with regular car people. So she's like, I'm gonna what is this fake Airbnb for cars called? And it's you rent people's cars. Yeah. So here's the thing about people's cars.
+
+[18:11] Random humans. Yeah, random humans cars. Yeah, but they have ratings, stars, yeah. Here's the thing about a random person's car. They may or may not be maintained.
+
+[18:20] May or may not be maintained. So Nastasia has in her head, which by the way, I appreciate she's like, I'm gonna rent a peace bus, and then we're gonna like be able to drive the entire like like you know, Booker and Dax, cooking issues, existing conditions, armada around Los Angeles, like you know, like Chi Chinchong used to do back in the day, but without the marijuana, and or I don't know, and then like you know, we'll get out, we'll do whatever we're gonna do. So she's super psyched about this peace bus, and she shows up. First of all, you could hear the brakes. How many miles away could you hear the brakes on that day?
+
+[18:48] I knew it was gonna be a nightmare. Rebecca, the boondoggler, totally jinxed. Well, they gotta know who I'm talking about, Rebecca. There's a lot of Rebecca's. Have you referred to me as a boondoggler previously by name?
+
+[19:01] With Rebecca. Nastasia also Nastasia makes me sing various boondoggle songs, like though right? Yes. I won't do it now. Anyway, uh, point is is that Rebecca gets in and it has a full kitchen ish.
+
+[19:18] Okay, full kitchen is if you are on your knees and you only want to do very limited things. It's in a van. Yeah, it's not like it's it's a full kitchen. It's a full kitchen for a van. The f the fridge door kept opening.
+
+[19:31] I had to slam it shut from the front seat a lot. Yeah, no cup holders though. No. So I got I got in first. Yeah.
+
+[19:37] I got into LA first. Nastasia was already here with a van. And I get on the phone with her when I'm off the plane when I'm waiting for him. Like, you're picking me up, right? And she's like, yeah.
+
+[19:45] Uh you're she didn't tell me what the car looked like. She just said, it's the loud one. You'll hear it. You'll hear it before you see it. So anyway, so Rebecca is, I I would say everyone would agree the most reasonable of us.
+
+[20:01] Yes. Yes. It's been a it's a big growing and learning experience for me this trip, I would say. So she gets first of all, this van seats four, sleeps six. You figure it out.
+
+[20:14] I don't know how the hell that's worse. Except it's sleep six, but you can actually have a hundred people here on a Saturday night. And the thing, the other the other things that is similar about this house and that van is that they both move the same amount. Because here's what happened. All right, so here's what happens.
+
+[20:34] We're going down the highway. We're playing music. Nastashi's like, I gotta get gas because this thing gets like, you know, five, six miles to the gallon. So it's like draining. You can visibly see the gas meter going down as you're going down the highway.
+
+[20:45] Pull into the gas station, she turns it back on again, and meanwhile, there the whole time we're driving. Well, well, you know, I don't know this yet. I don't know this yet. Nastassi and I were both aware that she goes, huh? The battery lights on.
+
+[20:58] Yeah. Doesn't tell me what's going on. We pull into the gas station. She turns it off, turns it back on. Yeah, but Jack, what did you say?
+
+[21:05] You were like, It's fine. It's probably fine. Yeah. People, let me tell you something. In an older car, you know, that doesn't tell you everything that's going wrong, when the battery light goes on, it means the battery's not charging.
+
+[21:15] Without a battery, if you don't have a battery and the alternator's not working properly, as soon as the battery runs down, no more spark, no more engine, no go, right? So I'm like, oh my oh my god. We're in a gas station. Yeah. Yeah, right.
+
+[21:29] We're at a gas station. But like, you like at least like if there's a little bit of power in the battery left, when you when you turn it in an old car, you'll get click, click, click, click, click, click, nothing. This sucker was dead dead. And of course, none of us know that like in a VW, the engine is in the rear of the car. I was like, I did we throw the alternator belt?
+
+[21:48] What's going on? We've never actually found out what's going on with the car. So we're dead on this thing. And the the battery, also in one of these things, is right in the middle of the vehicle. So we're right next to a gas pump.
+
+[21:58] So no one can pull in and we our jumper cables for this that can't it should tell you something. The first thing the guy said when he gave it to Nastasi was like, oh, the jumper cables are back here. That should have told you something, Nastasius. Yeah, you didn't think about it. I did think it did hit me, and I was he was like, the battery's here and the jumper cables are here.
+
+[22:14] In case you should need to know. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So then we also kept referencing that you were going to sleep in the van, and he did not think that you were going to be driving it around. True.
+
+[22:27] True. So we jump right. By the way, it takes very little electricity from the battery to keep the car running. Because as long as you're not running the radio or doing this other stuff, you're really just making the sparks, right? But that being said, we're driving through Los Angeles in an old bus with the windows down.
+
+[22:44] You think we're not gonna put the radio on? Yeah. Right. No, but after we figured out it was a problem, we didn't put the radio on it. Oh, the good news is doesn't have any air conditioning.
+
+[22:51] That's the other good thing. So uh we are it had an air conditioning at one point. I can see because I saw the compressor for it with no belt that the guy cut off because he didn't want to maintain it. Whatever. So we get this guy to jump or us, we sit there for a while, we go, and I'm not sure in my heart, I'm like, was it was it a problem with the with the charging?
+
+[23:10] In other words, is the alternator are are we gonna be okay running as long as we don't turn it off? Oh yeah, Nastasia also wants me to talk about the fact that well you're just making me look like a meanie. You're sitting there, we don't know what the heck's going on, and you're sitting there pounding Skittles, like you know, like you're I don't know what you're sitting there pounding Skittles. We hadn't eaten anything. Who hadn't eaten anything?
+
+[23:30] Well, Jack and I had squirrel for breakfast, but then I get really hungry for lunch. Yeah, we had a big beautiful breakfast that's gonna be a little bit more. So we're sitting with a dead bus at a gas station. She's just sitting there. We're all trying to rip the back thing off to look at the engine.
+
+[23:43] She's like, no Skittles. So I lost it a little bit. You lost it. Yeah, I lost a little bit. You're just like, you're eating Skittles right now?
+
+[23:51] Stop eating Skittles! Stop eating Skittles! So we get we get going. And about the person who approached you. Oh yeah.
+
+[23:57] So we're sitting there trying to sweating, sweating, trying to figure out what's going on with it. You both got off a six-hour flight. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Guys like, can you spare any money?
+
+[24:06] Uh we were like, I don't even have a working car. I got nothing here. I'm trapped. You know? Pick on someone with a working car.
+
+[24:15] So, like, we get the sucker going, and we can make it all the way. So we're like this house, I told you, it's the closest house to the to the Hollywood sign. You have to go on some snakey, snaky, windy roads. And the road bifurcates like 89 times before you get to the final one where this house is. And PS, the cell service, Jeff, right or wrong, sell service up here, not so much.
+
+[24:37] Not so much. No. And uh, so I was navigating. Yeah. Getting us getting us up there and uh doing a fine job.
+
+[24:47] But what I said to Nastasia as we approached a turn was left, left, left, left, left, left. She goes right. She goes right. Now, also remember, we're in a peace bus on a road that's about as wide as like a baby stroller. Like a baby stroller can go up this road, maybe.
+
+[25:06] So we end up at this place, I don't even know where it is, Dorcas Place, if anyone knows where that is. Dorcas place. Put it into reverse to make a no, she pulls into an extremely rich person's driveway. How do I know they're extremely rich? Because they had one of those automatic gates with a punch pad and a little camera so you can say who you are, and a bunch of vehicles in their little McGillicuddy over there, right?
+
+[25:25] In their little cul-de-sac, their private cul-de-sac. So we pull into it, but half the peace bus is still on Dorcas Place. And then right there, the spark plugs are like, you know what? I'm done. I'm done.
+
+[25:39] Poosh. Dead. Nothing. Right at this bird. Yeah, she throws it in reverse, and it was just silence.
+
+[25:45] And Jack has no bars, Nastasia has no bars, I have no bars. Rebecca, the boondoggler, you come to the rescue, you have a half a bar of service or selling one bar. And things that the stories you're telling. Who's exactly the boondogger? Another thing, like I had not experienced any good old-fashioned LA road rage when I was out here until this happened.
+
+[26:08] So what we what we what what are we gonna do? We we we have like a like a 19 like early 80s like peace bus halfway into Dorcas Place. Dorcas Place, you know, I could barely walk on it, much less drive a car. And like this guy comes around the corner at like 85 miles an hour in his little beamer, whips around, whips around, slams on the brakes, like, my groceries are all over my car. I'm like and what?
+
+[26:34] He wasn't mad at us though. He was mad at the truck that was coming down. I'm like, but and what? Yeah. Like, we are here.
+
+[26:40] We live here now. The good news is. Yeah, so Rebecca had one bar of service. We got Austin Henley, uh, you know, formerly of Booker and Dax, now at Major Domo, who we're doing all these projects with, to drive over, jump us. I'm like, give us enough, just jump us, give us enough power to get, you know, get the spark plugs running back to where the house was.
+
+[27:01] We made it. We called it in. We're like, you pull a flatbed up here, you free show, and get this thing the hell out of here. Anyway. Did you get a refund yet?
+
+[27:08] Yeah, I this episode is brought to you by Foster Sundry, a specialty grocery located in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Since opening in August 2015, Foster Sundry has evolved into a neighborhood hub for weekend brunch, weeknight groceries, coffee on your morning commute, a draft beer after work, and so much more. Their cheese counter, whole animal butcher, and produce section make grocery shopping a pleasure. Foster Sundry also offers catering and wholesale. Learn more at foster sundry.com.
+
+[27:42] That's F-O-S-T-E-R S-U-N-D-R-Y dot com. Oh, I also mentioned, I forgot to mention. So uh real real cooking tip, cooking tip, not uh driving tip. We were gonna have so many cool driving-related cooking tips in that piece bus, too. I know.
+
+[28:03] We were gonna cook all kinds of stuff in the Peace Bus. Yeah. Sears all shoot in the Peace Bus. We're gonna take it down to the Los Angeles River and do Sears all cooking in the Peace Bus. Didn't work out for us.
+
+[28:14] Next time we are not renting that Peace Bus again. What do you mean next time? Never again. No, no more pieces. We're going to rent from reputable people.
+
+[28:23] By the way, there was a sign on the side of this peace bus. It said, rent me for your next adventure. And I had to stare at it while we're like trapped on Dorcas Place with this guy's Beamer's groceries splattered all over his front car because they didn't have seatbelts. Honestly, it was an adventure though. They just didn't mention that they were creating the adventure.
+
+[28:43] Like the van is the adventure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so uh remember back, uh, we had purchased uh two very large expensive rabbits. I was like, what kind of rabbit is it? He's like, I don't know, California.
+
+[28:55] California rabbits. He's like, that's the variety. I'm like, no, it's not, you're just making it up. You jerk. He was a nice guy, actually.
+
+[29:00] So uh we remember we spatchcocked it, marinated it, and then we used the uh I used what I've learned from Tandoor. Remember, everything I now know about cooking, I've erased all of my old memories, and I do everything based on the Tandoor technique, which is use preposterously high heat and then just go off and on as many times as it takes to get the stuff done. Now, uh, and then you can let it cool down and then fire it one last time to rewarm it as long as you keep it like relatively warm. So you always have a nice crust and you don't overcook it. So remember, it usually works on stuff that's been lightly tenderized because you're gonna overcook some of the outside.
+
+[29:37] That's why we had acid in the marinade, sugar, all that crap. Spatch cocked, made it flat. We should have pounded it, Jack, right? Uh I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I don't think we needed to.
+
+[29:46] Well, if we pound it, we would have wrecked all those miniature bones. Rabbits got a lot of bones, people. Yeah. Anyways. Uh so my wife wouldn't have liked it.
+
+[29:52] She hates, she does not uh we don't cook rabbit at home because she doesn't enjoy eating bones out of her bones. She doesn't enjoy the bone thing. I will leave that. So then uh so what we did is we we made uh we made like you know the surface of the sun, Jeff. We turned your grill into the surface of the sun by like putting like eight loads of coal and like super hot, and then just we did uh both sides off on oil in between.
+
+[30:20] I think we had to off on it four times, right? Like was it three and then we did one last one. Yeah, so what you do is is you you put it on super high for like two minutes, flip it, right? It hasn't formed a good crust at this point. Then for the first cook, pull it off, let it rest, right, until it's not you know gets down to kind of a lukey warm kind of a thingamajig.
+
+[30:42] Then who back on, do that for two minutes, and then pull it, and then usually but some of the ones where you're actually trying to pulse the heat into it, so you're trying to get the heat up relatively quickly. You won't let it cool all the way down before you hit it again. So let's say you're cooking something like uh shrimp. Shrimp is gonna be viciously overcooked, right? I mean, pretty much it's gonna be viciously overcooked no matter what.
+
+[31:04] But uh with that one, you almost let it cool all the way back down between firings and you keep it well oiled because all you're trying to get is a nice exterior because the inside, as soon as it starts cooking is overcooked. In a rabbit, not the case because you need to get the thighs especially and part of the you know the haunchy stuff cooked, and it's a little bit thicker. So you're gonna need to go uh off on while it's still relatively warm. So the whole trick of this kind of high multiple heat cooking is how long you let it rest off the heat before you hit it again with your with your you know, quick on, quick off. Uh but you know, I think we hit it pretty well.
+
+[31:34] What do you think? It was perfect. Yeah. Rabbit. Delicious.
+
+[31:39] Off on, off on. So that's gonna be, you know, the subject of uh of half of the uh book that Nastasia doesn't believe I'll ever write. Right. Right? You believe I'm never gonna write it.
+
+[31:44] I don't think you're gonna write it. Which one? The miracle of moisture management? Yeah, and in my mind, it's not supposed to be called that. It's supposed to be called something else, but in my mind, I just keep calling it the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[31:58] Maybe that's what it should be called. Yo, bring moisture back, people. Today we're gonna be at night market. Right? Going at night market, but which one?
+
+[32:05] West Hollywood. Doesn't matter because no one's gonna hear it. But am I just reiterating that because you guys have asked me that like six times over the past 24 hours? Do they really call West Hollywood Weeho? We know they do.
+
+[32:18] Okay. Uh shall we do some questions? Uh yes, we have 10 minutes. Okay. Uh Ryan Miller wrote in from uh he's from he's Kansas City, right?
+
+[32:27] Kansas City. Our restaurant group recently acquired a family-oriented burger restaurant here in the Kansas City area that uh has three units uh around the metro area. In addition to tightening up some of the beverage operations, now I have that song Tighten Up going through my head. Tight enough. Uh tightening up some of the beverage operations and procedures in their bars.
+
+[32:45] I've been tasked to upgrade the milkshake and adult milkshake program. Now I have Khalis going through my head. Not, oh man. I wish we could play that. You know, she's a cook.
+
+[32:54] Yes, you've talked about this. All right. Uh I remember I was almost gonna be on that pilot. They were almost gonna get her to be the other judge. Time machine chef.
+
+[33:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're almost gonna get Khalise to do the uh thing. And then I wonder whether she would have used that song as the as the um adult milkshakes. As we get started, all milksh as we get started, all milkshakes will be using the same vanilla ice cream base, which purposely has a high butter fat content per the owner's request, and I'm sure to the delight of most Americans. Uh my question is, how do I maintain the texture and most importantly the thickness that is necessary in a fine milkshake when you're adding spirits, liquors, et cetera?
+
+[33:30] My initial attempts, well tasty and delicious, have come up thin and lacking that milkshakiness that we all want when we think burgers, fries, and shakes. Uh I'd like to use a mixture of spirits and liqueurs. In each, for example, a malted version featuring 50 uh 50%, 50.5% bourbon, and 31 uh percent uh these are alcohol levels, spirit-based tomorrow. Is this even possible or do you need to rethink entirely? Keep in mind that while having many competent bartenders on staff, special bar uh ingredients such as liquid nitrogen, etc.
+
+[33:59] are simply not an option in these heavy volume establishments. We have just installed a high velocity Hamilton Beach three spindle mixers at each establishment specifically for the milkshake program, Ryan Miller. Uh okay. So the answer is if you're not willing to do anything out of the ordinary, they're gonna be thin, right? So you can either reduce the quantity of liquor in, use liquor that has a relatively high viscosity.
+
+[34:24] I mean, we've all had Bailey shakes in the past, right, Jack? Yeah. Yeah. Uh but they thin out quickly because the alcohol content is just gonna cause everything to melt down faster. What I suggest you do, go on cooking issues.
+
+[34:35] Nastasia, is is cooking issues still a porn site, or is it back to being uh cooking issues? It's back. Okay. Look up my recipe for gel-an-based ice cream. What I think you're gonna want to do is specifically for the um the alcoholic ones, if you can have a separate ice cream base spun for it, you turn the ice cream base into a fluid gel.
+
+[34:57] So I use gel an, low acyl gel-an, um, and it used to just be CP Celco, but it went out of patent, so you can get it. So, what you do is you set the milk. So if you let's say you're let's just say you have milk, cream, eggs. You set the milk portion. Let's say you're gonna have a thousand uh mils, right?
+
+[35:12] So 500 mils milk, 500 milk uh mils cream, and then uh I don't know, like it's like three, four egg yolks, whatever it's gonna be in the recipe, right? You you take just the milk and you put uh you put uh like a full one percent of gel in, uh, so that's five, and then a thickener. So you could use LBG, uh, you know, you could use any of those. You and you bring up the milk and you you boil the milk with the gel in, and then you add in as it starts to come down in temperature, you add a little bit of calcium, the recipe is there, you add a little bit of calcium, the eggs whisk the eggs in, add a little bit of calcium, and then the cream at the uh and then do I add the cream before it sets? I don't remember.
+
+[35:52] You want to keep it so above the temperature where the gel an sets, but without having to boil the cream up. Then you set it, it sets hard like a gel. You blend that gel, and that gel now has the consistency roughly of a milkshake. And it's completely stable. Then you add you freeze it like ice cream, you make a milkshake, and then even as it warms up, it won't melt in quotes.
+
+[36:12] It'll just get um it'll it'll just get warm. Which is kind of gross. I got an email in question. Oh, yeah, what do you got for me? Mike in Brooklyn asks, why is everything so disorganized?
+
+[36:24] In life or with us? With us. Uh huh. But they can't be listening live, so what's that like when when do they email this? Now.
+
+[36:33] But like regarding what? Like there's different reasons why different things are feed and everything. People have been following what's been going on here. Why is everything on our life so disorganized? Well, because we try to do more than we are able to do.
+
+[36:48] Yes, that's true. You know, you try to do more than you're able to do, and it's uh it's you know, it's a crap show. You know what I mean? It's like, but at least you can do something interesting, right? I mean, the odds that we could do anything at all if we tried to only do what we knew we could accomplish would be zero.
+
+[37:05] We would get nothing done. Well, like when we got in, we did the bar thing. We had the car trouble, then we did the bar thing. We got went to bed at four, we woke up at eight, went to the farmer's market, and then all of yesterday we we did stuff. Yeah, but it was it is disorganized because we try to add too much stuff into No, I'm impressed with us, but it is disorganized.
+
+[37:25] We accomplished a lot. Oh, yeah. We we so yesterday we also uh we we also went to someone's house. Some guy's house. Right?
+
+[37:32] A listener. Yeah. Great listener. Yeah, and we made uh Saratoga Palomas and Kyle. And we made Saratoga Palomas, and we also I'm not gonna say it on the air, because A, we're not political, and B, we don't curse on this radio, but like Empirical Spirits Habanero distillate we did with uh grapefruit uh juice, carbonate that was delicious.
+
+[37:50] Yeah, those guys were cool. They had they had some fun stuff there. Yeah, great house. Really nice house. Yeah, you people, you people with your Hollywood Hills and your pretty views and your nice weather, garbage, garbage.
+
+[38:03] Um Dave, we have five minutes. Okay, geez Louis. Um let me see what I got. So you're saying I didn't answer the ice cream question last week. No, all right.
+
+[38:12] So you sure I can say two weeks ago? No. It's Sean Riper, you know him. Yeah, we talked about John Riper, but we didn't get into the question. All right, I'm pretty sure I did this.
+
+[38:25] Okay. I'm pretty sure I can remember answering this question. Don't do it, then don't do it. John, did I answer the question about Acme ice cream? Did I talk about the Stolting Ross custard machine?
+
+[38:36] Did I talk about the fact that the only continuous freeze ice cream machine that a normal person can buy? And by that I mean under 20 grand because they're like 12 grand. I looked it up. Is the is the is the stolting Ross frozen custard machine that only puts about 20% overrun into your into your base and has really I did talk about this because I said that if you have no overrun, which is what the people at Acme claim that they have, overruns the amount of air in an ice cream base, that if you have no overrun, then it's just a frozen block of cream. That's what we call a greasy popsicle, not ice cream, right?
+
+[39:09] So you want to get you need some overrun, and they're just manipulating the overrun to be lower. Didn't I talk about the ways to manipulate overrun? I don't think so, dude. That's what I call a greasy popsicle. Yes, a greasy popsicle.
+
+[39:21] Uh but uh I'm pretty sure I did. I'm pretty sure I talked about this. John, if I didn't talk about it, get back to me. Um this we did not do. We did not talk about pickle brine.
+
+[39:32] I'm glad Jack is here today for this. Greetings to uh Nastasia, Dave, Matt, who's not here at all, so I guess that's Rebecca and you, Jeff. Uh in this house, we have become f become fond of Bloody Marys with pickle brine in them. We are now going through brine faster than the pickles. I would like to make my own brine, but have a question or two.
+
+[39:51] I like Clausen brand pickles, uh, so thought to start with a this knockoff recipe, which is uh from a blog called Amanda's Cooking with No G. Amanda's cooking, like cooking. With an apostrophe or no? Well, not on the URL. It's just cooking.
+
+[40:06] Like you remember, like um, you ever seen those Finsler film G.I. Joe things? We're not cooking. You're not cooking. Anyway, it's like that.
+
+[40:14] Uh if you haven't seen Finsler films, it was one of the early viral videos. And pork shop sandwiches. It's from that one. Yeah, anyway. Uh, go watch it.
+
+[40:24] Uh, this involves the recipe. Involves fermenting in in quotes the pickles on the counter for a few days prior to putting them in the fridge. How would you approach this if you didn't care to actually produce any pickled cucumbers? Is this step important to the brine flavor? I.e., is the pickles are the pickles important to the pickle brine?
+
+[40:41] Yes. Or do you have your own recipe for this? I checked liquid intelligence. Lastly, any comments on the comments in that recipe. There are two micro debates about what's going on.
+
+[40:51] One is whether the fuzz that some folks grow on top of a pickle is mold or an acceptable byproduct for the fermentation. The other is whether you should boil and cool the brine or just mix it cold. Thanks, Glenn Holden from Aurora, Colorado. Okay. So the long and short answer is that in the way that you need some base in there to ferment in order to have the brine ferment, right?
+
+[41:17] So you need to have something for the lactic acid bacteria to grow on to actually get that pickle brine flavor. The fuzz is almost almost certainly not mold. It's probably bacteria, and you're seeing like the like the dead burnt out bodies of the bacteria or the living like bacteria kind of stuff that's growing on the outside or on top of the pickle stuff, that's all fine and good, right? But you're gonna need some sort of substrate. Uh what I recommend you do is make classic pickles, right?
+
+[41:47] So or buy them, right? Uh and in general, like if you're going to can them for a long time, that's when I use a jar. Most of the time when I'm making my own pickles, I keep them live. So it's just salt and you know, whatever flavors you want, garlic, coriander, yada yada yada. You can get the nice flowering dill.
+
+[42:03] Flouring dill, not regular dill, flowering dill. Flouring dill. Did I say it? Flouring dill with the little umbles. Uh you put that in and you you make it, get the right amount of salt, you let it ferment.
+
+[42:14] You can pull it at whatever point. I noticed in Amanda's cooking that that she appears to like a half sour. Jack, how are you feeling about half sour? I love a half sour. You like a you know why?
+
+[42:23] You know what? You like the crunch. I told you what my trick is. Half and half. You go to the pickle store, because I buy pickles from a guy in a big pickle jar, big bucket, like big 55-gallon drums of pickles.
+
+[42:34] I was like, yo, yo, yo, yo. Give me some half sours, but give me full sour juice. So strong. That's the pro move. Ugh.
+
+[42:40] It's the pro move. Beautiful. And if you leave your half sours out long enough, guess what they become? Sours. Full sours.
+
+[42:46] Right. So anyway, so uh what you do is you can pull them at the last minute. The half sours will be brighter green and they will have a better texture, but you actually don't want that. Since you want to maximize the pickle brine flavor, what I suggest you do is ferment a whole bunch of pickles, blend all of those suckers, add some SPL to them, spin them out in a sp in a uh in a spinzall brand centrifuge, which you can buy on Amazon from the Booker and Dax Corporation. Uh and then that pickle brine, you'll get a very high yield of that pickle brine.
+
+[43:14] You can then, if you need to, uh jar and heat that to stabilize it, and it will keep for the approximately till the next ice age or nuclear war, whatever happens first. Uh that's it. What do you got? You got anything to say on the way out, Nastasia? You should sing the song on the way out.
+
+[43:30] Sing the song on the way out. Well, this has been Cooking Issues uh semi-live. It's actually pre-recorded from the Hollywood Hills. Thanks, Jeff, for recording us. And you are we all gonna sing this?
+
+[43:40] Cooking issues is the word. Are we doing it? No. We're already doing it. We're doing it.
+
+[43:44] You wanted to say you're laying back. Ready? Ready? One, two, two. This is gonna be a nightmare.
+
+[43:48] One, two, three. Cooking issues is a good thing. What key do we do this in? Dave, I don't just know. I don't know how many times that I have said who's stino.
+
+[43:57] I actually literally I sing that to Dax all the time. So when we're walking the dogs, I don't know how many times that I have said who's do. And he's like, a lot, Dad! A lot! Cooking issues.
+
+[44:14] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio.
+
+[44:34] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[44:59] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Tillet, the style leader in hospitality workwear and hotel and restaurant uniforms. Learn more at Tilletnyc.com. This is Dave Arnold, host of Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. I've been a part of the HRN community for nine years. Nine years.
+
+[0:16] Each week I record my show in the HRN studio made from two recycled shipping containers because I'm excited to bring you, our listeners, the most important stories from the world of food. Well, not really food, more like, you know, whatever Nastas and I happen to be doing at that moment. You know, technical issues. All of us here at HRN make food radio because we love it. This year HRN is celebrating its tenth anniversary, but we need your support to keep food radio going strong for the next decade.
+
+[0:43] Join the HRN community today by becoming a member. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate right now. You can even show some love for my show by selecting cooking issues in the designation drop-down menu. And if you hate me but love Nastasia, still do that. Select cooking issues in the designation drop-down menu.
+
+[1:00] Thanks for listening to HRN. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know, whenever. From the pizzeria in Bushwick Brrrrril. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who is not yet at our mic.
+
+[1:24] Hold on. Oh, she's walking behind me today. That's so nice. Oh my god, she's she's the queen of politeness today. And uh what has happened?
+
+[1:32] Nothing. Nothing? Ah, we got Paul Adams from uh what's your official title over there at the uh nowadays? Official title is Science Research Editor. Of America's Test Kitchen and Cooks Illustrated.
+
+[1:46] And Cooks Illustrated and related empires. Yes. Okay. We got Kat from the network. What's up?
+
+[1:52] Hello. So you have anything to tell us about the network while you're here? Are you just here to social media evangelize? I'm doing social media and there's a special thing happening today. It's the beginning of our summer membership drive.
+
+[2:03] So anyone who's a fan of cooking issues should support cooking issues. Oh, geez. And Heritage Radio Network by becoming a member. Is this gonna be one of those things where somehow I only ever end up listening to NPR during their drive, and like people are gonna be bombarded constantly as they listen to our podcast about this? Well, if we reach our goal, then we'll stop bombarding them.
+
+[2:22] If we reach the goal in half the time, you hear half the plugs. Is that what members get? Um we have this is actually very exciting. We have some brand new member gifts. We've refreshed um the things you can get if you become a member.
+
+[2:34] So we have we're gonna have limited edition t-shirts that have this very like cool Illuminati pizza logo on them. We also have pins with the pizza Illuminati logo. Um we also have a fine and raw chocolate gift set that has like custom HRN branding on it, and then the last new gift is a spice kit from Burlap and Barrel that are single origin spices, which is owned, co-founded by one of our hosts of Why Food. I've heard good things about them. I've never had their products.
+
+[3:02] Uh I really like them. I really like their um Icelandic kelp that's like um ground and it has like a sea, you know, ocean imami taste. Nastasia, what are your thoughts on Iceland? I don't know, I've never been. Yeah, but I thought you were anti-Iceland because you saw Bjork and Dirty Sneakers and you were like, she's so rich, why is she wearing dirty sneakers?
+
+[3:21] Uh where do we see her? At uh one of Questlaw's food salons. And you're like, she's so rich, what's with the dirty sneakers? Yeah, takes a lot of money to look this poor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:30] And Matt, how are you doing? We didn't call you out in the booth. Um I'm great. I'm spending time with our first caller. Uh already here, it's amazing.
+
+[3:37] All right, well, give me one second. Give me one okay, we'll take the we'll take the caller. But uh, okay, we'll take the caller first, and then uh I gotta announce we have like a thread that's gonna be running through the a testing thread. So America's test kitchen Paul is gonna be important. Testing.
+
+[3:52] Uh caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is Devin. Uh I had a question for you regarding uh automation in the bartending world. Okay. Um I'm see I'm seeing kind of more automation of parts of uh you know coffee shop operations.
+
+[4:05] Do you see the opportunity for stuff like that uh for bars? Uh so you're referring to like super like the super automatic machines, like for instance the custom ones that uh Starbucks uses or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, what I've been noticing is kind of uh a move towards breaking down the components of the drink making process. So like automatic uh milk brothers at a very high level, and then you know volumetric dosing of both uh espresso and coffee grounds and things like that, instead of a one unit super automatic like uh you know Starbucks had back in the day. Right, right.
+
+[4:40] Uh I mean look, I kinda hope not. I mean, the fact of the matter is is that certain parts of bartending are extremely easy to automate. Extremely easy, right? Uh I mean, obviously that you know kind of stuff we like to do with a lot of pre-prep and not not so easy, but it it's easy to automate uh some of this stuff, but at a certain point I just assume drink at home. I mean the question is what are you trying to what are you trying to do, you know, with with your with your drink?
+
+[5:10] People at home can't make a decent espresso, they just can't do it, right? So, and there's a certain number of actions that a barista is doing every single time, right? To make it like it's it's you know, like they say, gol uh, it's like a game of golf. It's about repeatability, about being able to like repeat the same shot, or I guess bowling is more act because bowling really is the same time every time you toss the bowling ball, you're tossing it at the same 10 pins. And so, you know, I guess espresso is more like golf because things change, the humidity changes, the beans change, the roast change.
+
+[5:43] But anyway, you're trying to achieve a specific thing every time. Uh, and so you know, at least everyone has a reasonable goal. With a drink, it's not the same. People want their drinks different. Um, it just, you know, it's there's the banter.
+
+[5:55] So could you make a machine that was like and like shooting stuff into a glass, chilling it to an exact temperature, and handing it to you without human intervention? Sure. And could that take a drink at like a really wretched club, you know, where where the person like not only could care less about the drink, could care less about you and kind of wishes you'd fall off the face of the earth, just wants you tip and then wants you to die and have the next customer come up. But they have these on cruise ships already. Yeah, and how good are the drinks on cruise ships?
+
+[6:25] I don't grow on cruises, so I don't know. Well, at your bar, Dave, you have bottled cocktails in a machine. It would also be cool to walk up to the machine and the cocktail gets made by the machine to order banters with you. But we hello, person. I'll tell you what, I hate machines that try to pretend like they're people.
+
+[6:45] You know what I mean? Thank you. You're not a machine. What's thanking me mean? Nothing.
+
+[6:49] You're a machine. The corporation maybe thanks me, which is fine. But remember, a bartender is making the drinks that go into our machines. Could it be mass-produced? Sure.
+
+[6:58] I mean, like there's lots of mass-produced products that are delicious. For instance, Coca-Cola is the well, you know, I drink Diet Coke, but Diet Coke, delicious. You know what I mean? If you like diet sodas. Uh, pre-made, put in a bottle, great.
+
+[7:10] And the idea of a bar is that you're supposed to be able to order a wide variety of things. So most of the automation that's coming down the line is like here are these three mixers, here are these 10 spirits, let me spray them into a cup. And you know, they have those machines that make make coffee. Could you do it? Sure.
+
+[7:27] You know, is it gonna replace a bartender in a real bar application? I again, I hope not. Like you want the in other words, like at what point are we drinking? At what point are you like just hard drinking alone? You know what I mean?
+
+[7:41] Like if you're if you're walking up to a machine, like uh Anastasia, this is not my not my bag, you know what I mean? I think uh cocktail machine would be a fun novelty at a bar, but I don't see it replacing the human bartender. I mean, what it's for is if you wanted to have an environment where you trusted no one to make the drinks, right? So you had complete lack of skill, which is true in a lot of coffee shops, complete lack of skill, and then you also have uh, you know, a limited menu and a lack of skill on the production side. I'm sure that this machine would do better than the average Jocamo.
+
+[8:16] If somebody wanted to put an automated bartender in that corner over there, I wouldn't say no. Uh I mean, but the thing is is that it would need so much power. You'd need ice, constant supply of ice, constant supply of of uh liquids, rinse downs, all this other stuff. Automated bar back too. They also would take up the entire shipping container.
+
+[8:35] We can't even get Wi-Fi here. Strong point. Yeah. You know, Anastasia, always keeping it real. That's why I love you.
+
+[8:43] Uh all right. So, uh, while Nastasia and I were in Los Angeles last week, uh, we did an event at Harvard and Stone, Aaron Polski's joint, where, you know, he viciously, viciously underestimated how many drinks we needed, right, Nastasi? Oh, he did not viciously underestimate the amount of drinks that we needed. Definitely did not. Uh definitely, definitely did not.
+
+[8:59] Hey, Nastasi, do me a favor. Let wait till we're done to airdrop because it's going over the front of what I need to read. And I can't read the stuff. You know, no, that's great. I have a picture of Nastasi sent me a picture of Rebecca the Boondogler and an apple head.
+
+[9:21] But really, I just need my iPad to function as uh as something I can read the information off of, okay? Yeah. You know, although that pair of shoes from Zappos you're ordering is real nice. Um this is the more pleasant me. I'm trying to be supportive.
+
+[9:37] Uh so we're in Harvard and Stone, and uh someone I knew back uh from the French culinary days, uh Ivan Makawa, uh he has a place, so his family is of Japanese extraction via Peru, where they picked up Peruvian like rotisserie chicken technologies, right? Then came to Los Angeles and settled in Koreatown. So uh he and I guess he like took over from his dad. They have a restaurant, uh, Pollo a la Brasa, you know, which is the Peruvian chicken, uh, Western in LA, right? And so it is a Peruvian chicken joint in Koreatown run by a family of Japanese extraction.
+
+[10:19] That's where that's to kind of the like classic kind of I guess LA mashup of what's going on. We didn't get to have his chicken. Although next time I go out there, Nastasi, we should uh we should stop by and have his chicken. Here's why I like the guy. Two things.
+
+[10:31] One, he brought us a present, which is what why I'm talking about it now. Two, uh, the guy makes uh all of his own rotisserie parts. So he's like custom fitting out all of his rotisserie, and then I looked at them up on the internet, like they hands like chop all their own wood because they do wood fired on their on their chicken. So I want to go check it out. But the the reason we're talking about it today is that uh he brought us at Harvard and Stone uh and handed me a bunch of MREs.
+
+[10:58] Now you know what MREs, right? Meal ready to eat. These are the military rations made by the Warnick Corporation. Now, uh Warnick makes civilian rations, right? Uh, but you cannot buy legally anyway.
+
+[11:10] You cannot buy the military version. It says right on it, uh warfighter recommended, warfighter tested, warfighter approved, and then it says, uh, where does it say? Somewhere it says, you cannot buy or sell this. Oh, U.S. government property, commercial resale is unlawful.
+
+[11:29] What is the difference between military rations and civilian rations? Well, if you listen to the Warnik company, they say there's not a big difference, but yet everyone wants to buy the military version, I guess because it's illegal to sell them, right? So apparently they're difficult to source. I don't know where Ivan sourced this. I didn't ask him.
+
+[11:44] I wouldn't know where to get civilian rations either. But when he hands this to me, he said this to me he said, Listen, listen, don't open the package till you get home. He says these things because they contain a heater in them, right? Right. So you can these are allowed on an airplane as long as they haven't been opened.
+
+[12:01] But as soon as they've been opened, they're no longer allowed on uh on the airplane. So, you know, for those of you that don't know, the museum of food and drink uh has long been interested. We haven't done an exhibition on it yet, but you know, I've personally been interested in military food for a long time. Some of the great advances in food technology, think canning, right, are a result of needing to feed troops on uh, you know, when they're far away, when you don't necessarily have access to local produce. Also, you know, when you fight a war, that's why in the old days, when you fought a war, you took all of the crops and cows and pigs and whatever and just ate them.
+
+[12:29] You just ate the land as you went. You know what I mean? But these MREs are uh this is a lot lighter. Feel this, Paul. It's quite light.
+
+[12:42] It's quite light. Apparently, it's also completely self-contained, so we're gonna try to do this in a completely I have a knife. Very light stew. I have a knife. Is there liquid in there?
+
+[12:49] Uh no, that you need. So it's everything but the liquid. This is menu number nine, beef stew. Ragu de bœuf. It really says that on the menu.
+
+[12:57] It says ragud de boeuf. MRE, and we're gonna open it up. I have a knife with me because of course I'm a breathing human. But it says that I don't need a knife to open it, and indeed I don't. So it's in this tan pouch.
+
+[13:09] Let's open up, take a look here. Okay. Oh, it comes with it, it comes with a spork. No, a spoon, sorry. Come on, Warnick.
+
+[13:16] Step up your game. Give me a spork. You know what I mean? Although a spork, if you don't need it, is inherently uh unsatisfied. Okay, honey, mustard, and onion pretzel nuggets.
+
+[13:25] So apparently these are ready to eat right now while we're waiting. Nastasi, you want to crack open these honey mustard and onion pretzel nuggets? See what else we got in this little magic pack. Oh, Jesus. Nuggets all over the floor.
+
+[13:39] So it turns out Nastasia shares something with uh my son Dax, which is opens packages by like just like mega rip. They're pretzel nuggets all over the floor. Uh I hope you don't have too many mice problems in here, Matt. This one fell. I'll bring Daisy in here later to clean it up.
+
+[13:55] Yeah, yeah. Hand me a nuclear, how many nugget? How are these guys? This one fell on here. But it you wait, one of you try one because it it's gonna make mouth noises.
+
+[14:04] Garaball. You know, you know everyone hates mouths. Oh, God, Paul. Chocolate hazelnut cocoa beverage powder, naturally and artificially flavored. Here's how you do it.
+
+[14:13] Try that one more time. I'll open my mouth. Why did it go? Just throw it right in. Directions for use.
+
+[14:19] Allow water just chemically purified to stand 30 minutes before adding to powder. Tear pouch. Oh, mouth noise. That was Paul. Mouth noises are so rough.
+
+[14:30] People hate the mouth noises. Tear pouch at notch, open zipper, add six ounces of hot or cold water to fill line, close zipper, shake to mix, consume promptly within one hour, or I guess all hell breaks loose. Alright, Kat, you make this. Or have Nastasia make it because you're on the you're on the uh on the social media machine. Ooh, what's this?
+
+[14:50] Do not overfill. Oh, this is the heater. This is the ready-to-eat magnesium heater, which we're gonna learn to use in a second here. Okay. Oh, this is the beef stew envelope.
+
+[15:03] What's in an MRE? Oh, it's got the all these- Oh, nice, beautiful. All right, Paul, you wanna set up this? It looks like one of the it looks like a larger version of a McDonald's apple pie thing, right? And this is the actual beef stew.
+
+[15:15] That's the the envelope to hold it because I guess it gets hot, right? Hold this. Alright, Nastasia, how's that? How's that smelling over there? How are the pretzel nuggets?
+
+[15:26] We got blackberry jam. Why? I don't know. Does any of this stuff go together? Peanut butter, why?
+
+[15:31] I don't know. Nut raisin mix. That's clearly ready to eat. And here's our packet with salt, chewing gum to freshen your breath, and Tabasco sauce. Alright.
+
+[15:45] Alright. I'm grooving on it. And then, oh, multi-grain snack bread. That's what the PB and J is for. So you got multi-grain snack bread.
+
+[15:53] Let's take a look at this. Uh, that's not bread. That's not bread. That's like that's like a cracker on roids. Let's see.
+
+[15:59] Ooh. It's snack bread. Okay. That's what they had in Lord of the Rings. Imagine if Fig Newton, imagine if fig Newton material without the fig part was just inflated to a thicker thing.
+
+[16:19] It has the exact texture of like a fig new Newton cookie. Nastasia is a fan. Alright, so let's get this going here. Warning. Vapors released contain hydrogen, a flammable gas.
+
+[16:29] Do not light a fire while you're doing it. Alright, I'm ripping this guy open. Using no equipment other than just the water that I've recently chemically purified by passing it through my body. Alright, I'm kidding. Hand me the beef pouch.
+
+[16:45] Now you put the beef pouch into the packet. Are you getting all this on uh on radio? Can you see this? It's just like a it's just like a small little envelope. That's a heating element?
+
+[16:58] Yeah, that's a heating element. Now watch, give me the give me the water, please. Alright. Ready? Looks like it's holy stino!
+
+[17:08] Wow. What was that? She you why don't you keep holding it in your hand rather than taking something that doesn't have a base and resting it upright? Nastasia. This is wine Santa all over again.
+
+[17:18] So what happened, people was Nastasia took something which is the equivalent of balancing a single piece of paper and rested it upright by a bunch of cables. That's what's happened. Alright, now I'm filling up this thing. This is water activated, so I gotta fill it up to the fill line. Let me see here.
+
+[17:36] Alright, God. It's probably enough. Alice, Paul. Gotta get the heater all wet. Neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat.
+
+[17:48] Alright, now supposedly this is gonna work now. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, it's getting hot and it's filling up with gas. We have the sleeve, the Oh Jesus, on a stick.
+
+[18:01] And it's I'm not supposed to say that. Bursting. I'm told that that's offensive thing to say. Okay. Alright, now it's gotta be propped up.
+
+[18:10] Kat, can you prop this up against a rock? Oh my god. You can smell it, right? No, that's it. No, that's the chocolate?
+
+[18:18] No, no, no. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Smell that. It smells like you ever have one of those exploding cannons. Oh, vapors are coming out of it.
+
+[18:24] You ever have one of those exploding cannons that uses uh that uses like um an acetylene reaction where it's got the you know what I'm talking about? They're called bang site. They use um, oh my god, it's going out of my head. The name of the chemical that when you add water produces uh carbide. Yeah, and then uh oh, you smell that?
+
+[18:43] Yeah. It smells like uh like kids probably No, no, no, no, like this. Like this, propped up against a rock, like that. The water has to completely cover the heater. All right.
+
+[18:53] Now Paul's gonna hold that mitter for 12 minutes while it heats up while Nastasia cleans the chocolate beverage off the ground, and I answer some further questions. Oh, is there a chocolate beverage? Can I have some? Uh well, you have to suck most of it off the floor. Let's uh here when you pour it in the cup.
+
+[19:08] Let's try it. Okay. Was it cup provided? The cup was not provided. You're supposed to be able to drink it out of the pouch.
+
+[19:16] Oh, Jesus! That one was not Anastasia. There is there is uh, okay, let's try this. Alright, Paul. This is the first taste of the That pouch looks difficult to drink out of.
+
+[19:27] Well, you're you're first of all, you're out in the field. Yeah. You just mix it in there and slug it down. This isn't meant, this is not like But it's got like a wide mouth. Why don't they make does it need to be pre-mixed?
+
+[19:39] It should be called meal ready to clean. I need to shake it. You didn't shake it. That's the one it's said to do. Roll the hey, Kat.
+
+[19:47] Pour this back in, roll the top over, and then shake it such that you actually distribute the powder on the inside. They actually spent several weeks of basic training just teaching you how to do a meal ready to eat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Alright.
+
+[19:59] How's that? Is that warming up there, Paul? Yeah, it's becoming uncomfortable to hold. Sweet. All right.
+
+[20:04] Uh eight more minutes. You're supposed to prop it up against a rock. Is there a rock in the kitchen? Uh you know what? We're offending all the way.
+
+[20:17] God. You wanna just put it down? God, no, I'll hold it. Alright. Alright, okay.
+
+[20:27] This episode is brought to you by Tillet, the style leader in hotel and restaurant uniforms. Tillet is redefining workwear for the hospitality industry, ensuring that you and your team feel great from stove to street. Till it is a full line of workwear clothing from pants to work shirts, chef aprons, jackets, dresses, chef coats, and more, with over 95% of their garments produced in the USA. Each hotel and chefwear collection is timed with the seasons, comprised of exceptional functional fabrics and built to last. Custom uniforms can be tailored for your restaurant, hotel, or store.
+
+[21:03] Learn more at Tillitny C dot com. That's T I L I T N Y C dot com. Alright, Joe writes in, Joe Ankowitz writes in about uh his soda stream. I'm looking to stop paying for soda stream refills. I'm hesitant to go full on and install a carbonation system in my plumbing, uh, to my plumbing because I rent in New York City.
+
+[21:23] The smell of the MRE is so intense now. You smell that? I love it. It smells like exploding stuff. Smells like my childhood where I would light everything on fire.
+
+[21:32] Who else had that childhood? Is it just me? My brother. Yeah, what's up, Matt's brother? Uh I also have zero plumbing knowledge, and it seems like that job might be above my pay grade.
+
+[21:42] I was thinking of attaching a CO2 tank to my soda stream with an adapter, but I keep my soda stream under the sink for space reasons, and I feel like it would be a pain to reach under the sink to turn the valve open and closed on a tank every time I want soda, which is usually multiple times a day. There are adapters online that allow you to refill soda stream canisters directly with a tank, which seems like a good option, although I don't know if there are any dangers. There are. Or if it will really work. It will.
+
+[22:06] Uh wanted to get your opinion on which of these options you think is best, and also ask where to get food grade CO2. All look, food grade CO2 in the New York City area. Uh, thanks as usual, Joe. Okay, so here's the thing. First of all, there's no such thing as uh food people are gonna yell at me really badly, especially the sellers of food grade CO2.
+
+[22:24] There's no real difference between food grade CO2 and any other grade of CO2. The difference is the tank. So uh tanks that have impurities in them can put off flavors like if there's oil or any sort of other impurities. So it's really all about the cleanliness of the tank. That's the important uh thing, right?
+
+[22:40] And uh I have used tanks uh from welding shops for 20 years, roughly. And you know what? They make carbonated water. They work. Um, so what are the dangers?
+
+[22:53] If you want to fill a soda, first of all, if you want to fill a CO2 tank, the couple of problems. I've done it many, many times. You don't want to overfill a tank, right? So you have to be able to uh, first of all, like you should really get a filling, like a filling rig if you're gonna fill it again and again. Because what you want to do is add some CO2 to the tank, purge it, and then fill it again, uh, and then be able to vent off because you want to make sure that you don't have any air in, because the air is gonna ruin you.
+
+[23:20] You have to keep the tanks uh frozen before you fill them, such the CO2 wants to stay in them, otherwise it's hard to get the CO2 in. Also, the tank you're filling from, either you have to be comfortable turning it upside down to get the CO2 to flow into it. Otherwise, what's gonna happen? Put it this way: if you take CO2, you know, uh depending on the temperature, let's say it's at 800 psi in your CO2 cylinder, your big one, it's a liquid. Above it is gas.
+
+[23:44] If you just then uh put a tank on it and say go, what's gonna happen is is that it's gonna fill with 800 psi of CO2 gas, and then nothing else will happen. And because nothing else is happening, uh, you're not filling it. You're having a very small amount of CO2, it will never fill. So if you chill it, chill it, chill it down, as the CO2 gas hits it, it will condense, turn to a liquid, and you will constantly fill it up until it is either the same temperature as the cylinder or it stops filling. You also to really do this right, you want what's called a siphon CO2 machine that has a siphon CO2 tank that has a spigot running all the way to the bottom, such that the first thing it draws off is liquid, not gas.
+
+[24:23] Otherwise, you need to turn the tank upside down to have the liquid flow out of it, which you know, whatever. Uh I mean, I'm not gonna say I I haven't done it because I have done it many times, but I'm not sure if it's safe. It probably is not. Uh, secondly, if you overfill a tank, what happens is uh the tanks are meant to have a certain amount of expansion room based on what percentage of uh what the pressure is uh of that at a particular temperature. So if you don't have enough expansion room in that tank, as soon as the temperature goes up, I mean, even a little bit, even up to like, you know, 90 100 degrees Fahrenheit, you're gonna blow the overpressure valve.
+
+[24:59] When you blow the overpressure valve, it's spent and you have to redo it. It's also impressive, right? So you don't want to have that happen because it doesn't just leak down to a safe pressure a pressure. It's like, I'm gonna dump all this CO2 into your kitchen right now. And it's not, it's not what you would want to have happen.
+
+[25:17] So I would not have it happen. Now, also, if you're filling tanks and you don't get them hydro tested regularly. So, like let's say you were gonna go buy a paintball tank, which is what a lot of people do. Paintball tanks, small ones, are so cheap that they don't hydro test them. If a tank becomes extremely old, it's no longer in spec, will it explode?
+
+[25:35] Probably not, but there have been cases where old non-hydro tanked uh hydro tested tanks have exploded. And again, this is not a pretty situation. You don't want to have it happen. Uh so what I would do just to make your life easy is I would get the adapters to fill uh the adapters to go from a soda stream to a paintball tank. And then I would get the you know, biggest paintball tank that can fit into your soda stream in lieu of its uh internal tank.
+
+[26:00] And then you can get those things refilled at uh sporting goods uh shops. And if you really want to, there are people online who will sell you a tank that's already been cleaned out to make sure it doesn't have any oil, and then that's a decent way to go, of course. The real way to do it is to get a 10 to 20-pound CO2 tank, 20 pounds, the most economical, and stick it under your sink and do carbo caps instead of using the soda stream technology. But if you're wed to soda stream, and people who are wed to soda stream, they just can't get enough of the farting noise as that thing tells you that it's carbonating, and for some reason they love it. And people who aren't used to the carbonator caps, that the ones that I use, they're like, it's too hot to do it, it's hot.
+
+[26:39] It takes about 10 minutes, people. 10 minutes, and you're fine with the carbonator system. But whatever. Whatever. 10 minutes to get used to it, not 10 minutes to create a bottle of soda.
+
+[26:48] Yeah, yeah, zero minutes to create a bottle of soda, 10 minutes to get used to that technique as opposed to the soda stream, and it is super cheap, and people, then you can carbonate cocktails, then you can carbonate fruit juice, you can carbonate anything. You can recarbonate your wine, you can post-carb your your champagne if it goes too flat. I mean, that's my recommendation. Oh, by the way, uh I while I was looking up CO2 safety, um, and again, like I look it up, there have been uh there have been things where you know they've blown up and killed people, but it's extremely rare. Can you hydrotest your own tank?
+
+[27:20] Uh you can hydrotest your own tank, but it won't be certified, it won't get a stamp because you are not certified to hydro test things. But if you fill your tank with water, use a hydraulic press with a uh use a hydraulic uh, you know, cylinder with a very, you know, with a good gauge, stick your tank under water and then pressurize it to a particular PSI, you know, you can hydro easily hydro test. The point of hydrotesting is is that um pressurized water stores very, very little energy. So when a tank fails when it's got water in it, it just goes and water sprays out, it comes out, right? And then immediately the pressure drops.
+
+[27:54] When you pressurize something with gas, this is why, this is why the chicken gun that Nastasi and I are gonna fire is so tremendously dangerous, because when you store vast quantities of compressed gas, right, it it's very compressible, so there's a lot of extra energy to release. This is why compressed gas, PVC, for instance, is rated for water and not for gas, specifically because the rupture uh mechanism of PO PVC is brittle, and if there's gas in it as opposed to liquids, when it does rupture, it goes all to hell and gone. Like through your eyes, through your neck, through your face, you know what I mean? So it's like through your chest, through the chicken. Through the chicken.
+
+[28:29] Ooh. I don't have time to talk about uh nuclear war and calculators, but I got some good nuclear war calculator information coming up later for people who are interested in nuclear war calculation. Uh which by the way, for people my age, nuclear war was the thing you thought about growing up. Like when I was growing up, nuclear every like every day I would plan with compasses like where I where in the fireball range I was compared to New York City. What's our plan?
+
+[28:53] Well, if you're in New York City, so the the real question is is what kind of weapon is the person gonna use against us, right? So if they're using a suitcase-style bomb with a ground burst in New York City, and they try to like make a point by doing it in a very like uh like high building canyon place. Turns out no one has ever run those tests. So there might be some people doing computer modeling now of a ground burst of um, you know, a ground burst of a small suitcase style weapon in a very densely built area, but most of the almost all of the tests are even built on the there that are done were done on kind of 50 style, like Levit Town American, like widely spaced wood-building villages with occasional concrete structures that were fabricated out in the desert, or uh, you know, uh wartime experience from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or airburst tests. So there's there's almost no real data on what would happen if someone's suitcase bombed us.
+
+[29:50] When I was a kid, I wasn't worried about terrorism. I was worried about the Soviet Union throwing, like you know what MERVs are? So it used to be that but way back in the day, missiles had one warhead on them, right? And then they went to this technology called MERV where they would throw one missile up and then it would split into a bunch of warheads, and so they didn't need just one warhead landing on New York. You were gonna be you know circled in in multiple megaton rain, not kiloton, megaton range hydrogen bombs, in which case, Nastasia, the long story, we live inside of the crater.
+
+[30:22] So not a lot you can do. The survival plan is you know, use your last 15 minutes wise. I thought you were gonna take a boat. If it's going to be something that you can get away from, right? Look, again, I we wasn't gonna go into it.
+
+[30:34] Yeah. How did this come up? No, exploding CO2 to just in Dave's brain. Yeah, no, don't you? I mean I was just excited.
+
+[30:42] Okay. Yeah. I went through a speaking of the military. Yeah. How much longer on the MRE?
+
+[30:48] How much longer on the MRE? I don't know. That's I don't know. I don't know. Oh, is it still liquid?
+
+[30:53] Is it still hot? It's still liquid and hot. Okay. Because it's supposed to consume the It's not gonna consume the liquid, as far as I know. It will consume some.
+
+[31:02] It's making hydrogen gas. It's getting that from somewhere. Presumably it's ripping the oxygens off, oxidizing something in there, probably the magnesium, and then producing hydrogen gas, which you know, that's why you're not supposed to put an open lighter. How's your beverage, Paul? The chocolate beverage is terrible.
+
+[31:15] Let me taste this chocolate beverage. It's supposed to be nutritious. This is like insure. Oh, that explains it. It's just like um, this would be good with milk.
+
+[31:25] It's like quick in water. It's like not enough quick in water. Well, I'm sure there used to be more quick back before the initial spill happened. Nastasia, what do you think? Oh, did you spill the flavorful part?
+
+[31:36] The flavor went on the floor. Oh, the ground smelled amazing. I'm gonna say that tastes fine. That tastes like quick. Yeah.
+
+[31:44] Do you like strawberry quick or chocolate quick? I love strawberry quick, but I had a terrible allergic reaction to it when I was a toddler, and now I'm afraid of it. By the way, very soon, people, maybe as soon as Thursday, and we'll uh we'll uh live live douche it out, I'm gonna go through my cherry test where I see whether or not this eight months of of weekly shots in the back of my arm have caused me to be no longer allergic to cherries. And then and then what is the test consist of eating cherries at a doctor's office. This way, like if I die, they can bring me back to life.
+
+[32:20] You know, epinephrine is the narcan of allergic cherries. So they just like you sit there, like you you collapse on the floor, boom, they hit you with the epinephrine, and then ship you off to a hospital. That sounds great. It's gonna be amazing. Are you providing the cherries or does the doctor have a few?
+
+[32:35] Come on, the first cherry I've had, Paul, in like in like 16 years, and you think I'm gonna let a doctor buy it? They might have special pharmaceutical grade cherries. Paul, have you met me? You know I'm gonna buy the best cherries that is possible to buy. I'm gonna feel each one.
+
+[32:53] Oh my god, huh? Like the difference between a crab cherry and a gray cherry is like the difference between, I don't know, crab coffee and gray coffee. Even worse, like a bad cherry, it just has no flavor. It's just like a bag of water. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[33:07] Yeah. But whereas like that cherry where the skin is still taut, there's still texture to the flesh, and it's got a nice acidity and sweetness. You know what I'm talking about? And the feeling, I'm not gonna do this at the doctor's office because she'll get pissed, but the feeling of just boom, spitting those seeds out, boom. If I can be that guy going down the highway again like I was when I was young at like, you know, 70 mile an hour, boom, shooting seeds out of the side of my window.
+
+[33:29] Oh my god. Is there any better feeling? Really? Is there? No.
+
+[33:39] Oh my god. Dave shot seeds across this whole country when he was younger. You know what? I'm Davy, I'm Davy Cherry Seed, spitting them out the window. In fact, I told this I think before, like, I used to live on the 20th floor of a garment district building, uh, you know, when my wife and I had our first illegal loft, and uh the entire next like section of the block instead of had a building, had a single-story loading dock.
+
+[34:02] So we had a great view. Uh Nastasi would have loved it because it's on the west side and she only likes living on the west side. But we used to spit our cherry seeds straight out the window because what's it gonna hit? Nothing. There's no one down there.
+
+[34:12] That's a great feeling. Spitting cherry seeds out of a window in Manhattan without without actually damaging anyone. No cherry seeds grew, no cherry trees grew on the top of the loading dock to my uh to my chagrin. Anyway. That's too bad.
+
+[34:24] Uh oh, back one more thing on the CO2. So some people try to say that the expensive CO2 adapters are worth the money because they are quote unquote lead-free. Uh the vapor pressure of lead at the temperatures that we're talking about, uh, and the small amount of lead that you is required in free machining brass is like on a rough order, zero. So I would just say no liquid is ever touching it, only CO2 is touching it. So someone tell me I'm wrong, but a little bit of lead in a fitting that's never gonna touch anything but gas and never gonna get hot.
+
+[34:56] I'm gonna go ahead and say don't worry about it. What do you think, Paul? Adapter from what to what? Adapter from the the brass adapter from the paintball tank to the uh soda stream. Like, some people are saying that their adapter is worth the $50 instead of the $15 because it has lead-free brass.
+
+[35:15] Most brass, almost all brass back in the day, had a small amount of lead put into it to make it much easier to machine, which by the way, that stuff, like marine brass, super easy to machine. A dream on a lathe. But, you know, I just don't think that there's gonna be any cross-contamination because all that's touching it is a gas at low temperature and the vapor pressure of lead, which it's not even 100% lead, it's a little bit of lead in the brass to help it machine. Zero. So you're not gonna really get any cross-contamination.
+
+[35:43] The reason you're paying $50 to the other one is that that person is probably a human. They're making a small number of them, they're not a large corporation. So if you want to support them for having the idea, I would do it for that reason and not for the lead. Uh we ready to eat this sucker. We can try.
+
+[35:59] All right, while you're doing that, Matt writes in about the vermicular, which sounds kind of gross, vermicular. It sounds like vermiculite or vermicelli, like worms, right? Sounds deliciously like worms. What's gross about worms? Oh, okay.
+
+[36:11] Are you one of those worm eaters? Paul, I bet you're one of those worm eaters. How hot is how hot is that? Uncomfortably hot? Uncomfortably hot, yeah.
+
+[36:19] Nice. That's my favorite kind of. Let me see. Let me see. I'm I'm trying to judge now, Paul's uh temperature.
+
+[36:25] That's that's warm enough. By the way, the meal is, as they say, ready to eat, meaning you don't have to heat it. It's safe to eat without it. Were we gonna pour this into a cup or you want to eat it out of the pouch? We've had extremely bad luck eating things out of the pouch.
+
+[36:37] Do you want to try it? Yes. All right. I'm not gonna tear it, I'm gonna cut it with a knife. Even though, like, is that am I really am I no, tear it?
+
+[36:46] Tear it? Okay, Nastasia. If I tear this and it it pours beef ragu all of my lap, Nastasia, it'll be the best day of Nastasia's life. Even better than the day Peter walked in on me in the toilet. Right?
+
+[37:02] Alright, I got a small opening in the top of this meal ready to burn my crotch. Nastasia. I'm not I'm not gonna use the I'm gonna use the screen. Do we have some scissors, Matt? No, I don't need scissors.
+
+[37:15] I got a knife, but Nastasi just wanted me to use no tools. Uh oh! Alright, ready? Give me a spoon here. It's right there.
+
+[37:24] Let's use the included all right, we'll use we won't use the included spoon because we have to unwrap it. Hem me a spoon? It does not smell like smells like delicious like dinty more. It smells like dinty mower. You familiar with dinty more?
+
+[37:36] Hold on. Hold on, people. Talk while I eat this. Describe Nastasia. It does not smell great.
+
+[37:42] Hey, what do you think? I'm gonna give it a thumbs up, Nastasia. I don't want any. Nastasia's gonna try this too next. Why don't you try it?
+
+[37:54] It tastes like freaking canned beef stew. I'm gonna say this is a good thing. It's gonna be great on social media video. I'm gonna say this is good. I I wanna say that I've put the unboxing video of the MRE on our IG TV so people can go watch it there.
+
+[38:08] They want the full effect. So Nastasia now is realizing that and I'll tell you something, Warnick Corporation. God bless you, you're not afraid of salt. That is a that is a salted. It's good.
+
+[38:19] It is a salted beef stew. I'm gonna give this one cooking issues approval. That is like, you know, that tastes like a decent canned beef stew. Yeah. Not grizzly.
+
+[38:33] It's it's very well thickened. It's it's very thick. It's salty. Matt, Matt's trying it. He came out of the booth into the shipping container to try it.
+
+[38:44] I don't know. What do you think I've got my salt ration for the day? Right. I'm for it. The only person who hasn't tried it is Kat because she's a secret vegetarian.
+
+[38:52] Okay. They make uh they make vegetarian versions of this, by the way, for those who are interested in. I didn't bring chicken with feta, I brought beef stew. I thought feta would be more polarizing. What else is in our meal?
+
+[39:03] Uh Paul, yeah, like uh look and eat away and make comments. I gotta uh I gotta do these uh these questions. I recently came across vermicular cast iron induction system. It looks interesting but a bit spendy. Have you had any experiences with this equipment that might warrant its place in a home kitchen?
+
+[39:17] I already have a low temperature cooking capability, so I'm wondering if there's an advantage to having a vermicular uh induction unit. Question two, if Nastasia allows it, which she will not, but she will like this question, so I'll do it anyway, and we will answer them in reverse order. Yeah, do it in reverse. Please explain the context behind the boondoggle song that was posted on Instagram during your LA tour. I was uh simultaneously amused and confused.
+
+[39:40] So, a boondoggle. Uh Nastasia, uh define boondoggle. I think it's a trip that's not worth our time. It's anything that is, you know, not worth a time or expense, usually complicated uh and just not not worth it. It's it's derived from the little keychain that the scouts used to make.
+
+[40:00] That now you've seen them remember when you're a kid you used to weave those plastic things into those kind of barrel shaped key fob. Yeah, yeah. Technically, those are boondoggles, right? And the original the scout newspaper was called the boondoggle. The boondoggle then got applied to the little thing that you make, and then somehow during the 30s, that got transmogrified into meaning something that's a waste of time or useless, especially something that requires energy to do and is not worth the investment.
+
+[40:27] Why is Rebecca the boondog? We are getting a big thing. Which one? Wendy. Oh, yeah.
+
+[40:38] We could sing boondoggle to anything. So the first time we went to LA, uh, intrepid bartender friend, former BDX, now uh major domo bartender Austin Henley, uh referred to the party that we threw as a sub party. Which, by the way, is the greatest insult you can give to a party. It's a sub party. I was like, Austin, good punning, my friend.
+
+[41:00] Good punning. Uh so, and in fact it was, and that, and that was the the infamous, like the the infamous uh circulator set to Fahrenheit instead of Celsius uh event uh among many, many, many others. Uh so because that uh we look any time Booker and Dax does an event outside, we have to pay for it. I don't know whether you understand this, but when you do stuff, you have to pay for it, right? So we have to pay for us to go out, the crew, whatever we're doing.
+
+[41:28] And right now, like we're pushing spinzalls uh because we need more people to buy them, but the fact of the matter is, we know we're we're never gonna sell that many. We know that it's you know, just like us, trailing edge technology niche, right? Like, you know, we we know what we are, but like honestly, like you need to get the existing customers to buy more and more spinzalls. Well, you know what? That's an interesting point.
+
+[41:49] So, like, like uh I I think that the truth of the matter is is that when bigger restaurants take it on, they need to kind of lay the potato chip them a little bit. Like to run a program like the one we have at existing conditions, you need like four, right? At least. Three to run and one to have as a spare while I fix the other one because I'd say twelve. Or you can do a double fisting campaign where everyone should have two.
+
+[42:09] But my point of the matter, my point is is that if we sold every single spinzall that we've made, we still have to like we're not getting rich. We're not being Bernie Madoff here with our spinzalls like they accused us of in uh with our Sears alls. Uh ain't nobody getting rich off the centerfuge. Let's put it that way, right, Nastasia? It's the next product, people.
+
+[42:27] It's the next one that's gonna push Nastasia, Nastasia and I over the top. It's gonna make us happy. What are you gonna do with your money once we make the next product? Helicopter. Oh my god.
+
+[42:36] We're not gonna get helicopter rich no matter what we do. Nastasia has been hanging out with billionaires too long and wants to become helicopter rich. Ain't nothing we're doing is gonna make us helicopter rich. Although that would be nice. Maybe rich enough to rent a helicopter every once in a while.
+
+[42:51] You know what I mean? I need to get out of the city. We could turn the top of the shipping container into a helipad for you. That was one of my get out of New York. So by the people who live in New York, right?
+
+[43:00] You want to be have a get out plan. So like Nastasia's weaker friends, Phil, right? Just basically said they were gonna give up, like if they knew they only had 15, 20 minutes. Nastasi and I have a plan. So the various plans we have, and you guys rate it.
+
+[43:14] Right. The blast range is a big thing. Well, there's blast, but it could it could just be something's gonna happen, like a dirty bomb, something like this. You just need to get off the city, right? And for those of you that don't know, getting out of this city when there's traffic can be problems.
+
+[43:26] I like the parachute backpack with the propeller because then you just go up to whatever top you're building, brrrrr. You seen these things? Parachutes with a propeller on the back. Have you seen these things? Sounds scary.
+
+[43:37] Have you seen it? I mean have you? No, they're amazing. Anyway, the other one is you can buy small with pressurized canisters, inflatable boats without without boards, where you just store it in your closet, wheel it to the river. Nastasia lives near a river, I need to live live near a river.
+
+[43:55] Out. That I think is the best. If you are very rich and you live in this city, look, it's not for that. Let's say you are rich and you come from not in New York City and you moved to New York City and your parents are worried about you, and you were very, very rich. There is a dude whose business is.
+
+[44:10] You know what a zodiac boat is? No. Zodiac boats, there's various varieties of zodiac boats, inflatable, but then also aluminum pontoon zodiac boats. The Coast Guard uses them. They're indestructible and require very little maintenance.
+
+[44:21] This dude will keep one gassed up, ready to go with stuff at a dock, such that when you hit the you know GTFO button, right? It's always there ready, and you just right out of the city on your own zodiac. How sweet is that? Nice. Nice.
+
+[44:36] I have a personal submarine docked in the East River. Oh yeah? Have you chopped up a journalist and thrown her body parts overboard? Are you Danish? You remember that story?
+
+[44:45] Yes. Yeah. Are you like a do you have you murdered a journalist? Are you Danish? He never answered, by the way.
+
+[44:52] He never answered. Okay, so the vermicular, so the boondoggle is uh, oh, yeah. Because even if we sold all of the spinzalls that we make, we still wouldn't be making enough money to pay for promotional tours for them. You know what I mean? So inherently, anything we do that's spins all related is a boondoggle.
+
+[45:07] Like inherently. And you call Rebecca RPR person. With love, we I you also do. We all call her the boondoggler. And now it's a thing of love.
+
+[45:19] We called her that on the on the air when we did our LA show. So now it's out in the ocean. Yeah, she's in the show notes as the boondoggler. The boondoggler. I love the boondogger.
+
+[45:27] Boondogger, good business. Good business. Uh so now, the other question you had on the vermicular cast iron induction system. Okay, Jeebus. So the vermicular cast iron system is a uh Paul, eat some of this other stuff.
+
+[45:39] Let me know how it is. I never had a pretzel. Was it good? Was it a flavored pretzel mugger? Pretzel is a totally fine pretzel.
+
+[45:45] It's probably the best part. It tastes like a pretzel you buy at the grocery store. Like you know why? Why? It's probably a pretzel that you buy at the grocery store.
+
+[45:53] There's a sugar-free raspberry beverage base. Oh, make it right now. In the two minutes you have remaining, make it some Tabasco and chiclets. Don't mix those together. The chiclets are to clean our breath of the dinty more stew and we're done.
+
+[46:04] But there's only two. So you can really only eat one with a friend. Uh unless you're one of those people that bites chiclets in half. Dave, question. Okay.
+
+[46:11] You're not one of those people, right? No. So the vermicular is a cast iron, it's okay. Imagine an induction cooker, but an induction rice cooker or an induction crock pot, which by the way, my Zoji Rushi induction rice cooker is sick. I love it.
+
+[46:24] But with a cast iron pot instead of a regular rice cooker pot and a and some more controls on it. Um I think it looks like a very well-built piece of equipment. It's again, it is for rich people. Like, if you wanted to have a rice cooker that like also had a really cool cast iron pot that you could put into the uh that you could put into the stove uh as well, then I'd say it looks like a nice piece of equipment. If you're looking for it to do something that your rice cooker can't do, then I would say no, it's not worth $675.
+
+[46:59] I would rather spend the $200 and something doll on the largest Zoji Rushi rice cooker, use that for what that's for. And since you probably already have a, you know, uh Le Crusade somewhere using that for your stovetop wear. But it looks like it, and by the way, you can use that on a regular induction unit as well. So, you know, there's that. So what is vermicular about it though?
+
+[47:20] Uh nothing, as far as I can tell. It's just a name. It looks like a very nicely designed, very well put together, like uh Instapot sort of a thing with a cast iron, very well-machined cast iron thing. So I'm gonna say if you have the money, do it. I mean, it looks nice.
+
+[47:29] I would be proud to have one on my counter. Marcel from the Hudson Valley writes in about oat milk. Uh hey, any chance you can get Dave to answer this question. Uh this may have been discussed before, but please tell me everything you know about how to make good oat milk like oatly in a commercial restaurant setting. I'm that is a highly flavored raspberry beverage.
+
+[47:53] I can smell it across the room. But it makes Kool-Aid powder. It's concentrated. You're supposed to mix it instead of just eating the powder. There's another cup with some water.
+
+[48:00] Maybe you're you have one minute. Cheese, oatly in a commercial restaurant setting. I'm especially interested in semi-long-term stability. Uh thanks, Marcel from the Hudson Valley. Okay, so here's the thing.
+
+[48:09] Uh Oatly, which is the oat milk that the baristas use, is not made like a regular human being. There's a patent on it, right? So uh they use whole oats and then they grind them up and then they enzymatically treat them with two things. One, a protease, which includes How did you find this information? Because it's patented.
+
+[48:29] Anytime there's a patent, oh anytime there's a patent, you can go on. So you can't, by the way, if you actually try to do what they're doing, you're infringing on their patent because the patent is very recent. They applied for the patent in 2014 and they got the patent in 2017. So anybody can find this information? Stop.
+
+[48:44] So listen, so they de-amidate the protein, and what that means, you have to wait through a bunch of stuff. When you deamodate the protein, you're um so cereals have a lot of proteins that are liable to this process called deamodation. When that happens, they uh the proteins partially unfold and they become better emulsifiers. So they don't have to, they're the ingredient label list on uh on Oatly is very, very clean, right? See if I think I have it here so I can read it maybe but I have to sift through it.
+
+[49:12] Oh, yeah, oat base, water and 10% oats. So oatly uses whole oats that they grind, soap, blend, right, and they treat with enzymes in that state. So they're using a 10% oat base, but one protease and what's the other enzyme? Uh they add uh something to uh break down the starch. They add some sort of amylase to it.
+
+[49:30] So they have an amylase to break down the starch, increase increase the sweetness, uh, probably also reduce some of the gumminess in it, and then they have a protease which adds an emulsifier to it without having to use an emulsifier. So it also theoretically increases the protein content that's soluble, so it's increasing the protein content. However, if uh they also then add rapeseed oil. The reason they're adding rapeseed oil is because um there's not very much oil in it. So if you want it to act like milk, you have to add milk.
+
+[49:58] Now they don't add an emulsifier to it. Well, they add calcium phosphates, that's probably adding some emulsification to it, salt and vitamins. But they're trying to get some emulsification out of the proteins that they've deamidated, right? Now, that one of the tricks of their patents is that if you just add like bromelin or some other protease to it, it won't it won't do it in the same way. It'll just hack the protein up into little pieces.
+
+[50:20] Those little pieces may or may not have any emulsifying capability, but they're also likely to be bitter. So, you know, unlike you know, breaking sugars down where pretty much you're just busting it down, proteins when they're broken down the wrong way can produce what we call bitter polypeptides. But I'd say uh if you don't care about any of that, just make uh oat milk with standard uh oat stuff, hit it with a mixture of gum arabic and xanthan to stabilize the heck out of it because you don't have emulsifiers in it, and gum arabic will emulsify fine, uh, and then add some oil to it. Just like follow one of my recipes for like uh any milk, you know, for for butter syrup or something like that to emulsify a small amount of oil into the oat milk, and it should also stabilize the oat milk from separating because you're not gonna find uh all of the all of the enzymes that the oatly people do, and even if you did, you'd be infringing on their patents. So uh thanks, Ivan for the uh MRE.
+
+[51:11] Nastasia, although she didn't want to try it, gives it the thumbs up. I tried it. I know, you give it the thumbs up. I know, she's stew queen. Who's who's not?
+
+[51:20] Who doesn't like stew? Find me someone who doesn't like stew, and I'll give you a person that doesn't really like living. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[51:44] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[52:11] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Tabberdin, New American Cuisine in one of Washington, DC's oldest hotels, located in DuPont Circle. For more information, visit Tabardin.com. This is Dave Arnold, host of cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. I've been a part of the HRN community for nine years. Nine years.
+
+[0:22] Each week I record my show in the HRN studio made from two recycled shipping containers because I'm excited to bring you, our listeners, the most important stories from the world of food. But not really food, more like, you know, whatever Nastas and I happen to be doing at that moment. You know, technical issues. All of us here at HRN make food radio because we love it. This year HRN is celebrating its tenth anniversary, but we need your support to keep food radio going strong for the next decade.
+
+[0:49] Join the HRN community today by becoming a member. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate right now. You can even show some love for my show by selecting cooking issues in the designation drop-down menu. And if you hate me but love Nastasia, still do that. Select Cooking Issues in the designation drop-down menu.
+
+[1:07] Thanks for listening to HRN. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from you know like 12 or something like this. To like, you know, around one from Robert P uh Robert's Pizzeria and Bush Week broklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:31] How you doing? Good. Got Matt in the booth, what's up? I feel great. By the way, my voice, I sound like this because I inhaled a whole lot of fiberglass over the weekend, which we, if we have time, we can get into, but I've never heard you stumble on the start before.
+
+[1:43] So much fiberglass. You know, plus at a certain point you're too old to be inhaling fiberglass on the regular. Uh like when you're one. Oh, come on. One-year-old can take some fiberglass to the lung.
+
+[1:57] Uh, but we have uh in the uh in the studio our special guest, Nick Strangeway. How you doing? I'm very good. Very good. Very happy to be here.
+
+[2:04] I haven't seen you in a while. The first time I actually got to spend a lot of time. Well, maybe do you want to just he makes a gin. He makes a gin. And it's a funky gin, but I think to understand like kind of what's not funky necessary, but like in other words, production-wise funky.
+
+[2:18] And in order to get into it, maybe it helps to talk a little bit about kind of your history. Nick, well, oh, by the way, call in your questions, gin related or otherwise, to uh uh 718-497-2128. That's 718497-2128. So you were a bartender before the big renaissance. Yeah, I started bartending in 88.
+
+[2:45] Right. So a long time ago. And I've survived. Right. But but the interesting thing is is that I think one of the things that's interesting is that not only have you survived, but you've managed to stay kind of at the rolling front of what's going on.
+
+[2:57] So you haven't you haven't dinosaured out. You know what I mean? You you stayed kind of at the at the leading edge. Now Booker and Dax and Stasia, I have a company. We're the trailing edge technology, we're the stuff that can fall off the airplane and it still flies.
+
+[3:10] That's our motto. But uh you've managed to stay, you know, um kind of at the forefront of what's going on. I remember the first time I hung out with you to any extent you were doing like a really kind of uh you were working with, I think Purno Ricard at the time. I think you're allowed to talk about it. And uh it was before you came out with kind of your your limited run.
+
+[3:31] The craft the craft vodka stuff yeah yeah but you were working, um, you were just out working with uh I think it was Ferminich or one of the big flavor houses. I forget which one it was. Uh was it Ferminich or was it the other one? No, it's the other one. Yeah, yeah whichever they're called.
+
+[3:44] Yeah, yeah but um so you know you've kind of been um interested in techniques of distilling flavor creation through your consultancy company and then went later working making the vodka so you you come at this honestly and like from a from for a long time working on these kinds of problems and from the heart would that be accurate? Yeah I think so I mean I think it's very easy to get bored in the bar industry and luckily this Renaissance came along and I wasn't at the forefront of it I was always there and it kept me motivated it kept me interested otherwise I'd have stopped and gone done something else. If I get bored I go and do something else and it's boredom that drives me to do things. All right well well that's good for for me what what what is it that drives us Nastasia just I don't know I don't know I don't know we'll figure it out yeah if you lose interest then what why continue doing it I mean I'm lucky touch wood and make long continue I don't do things I don't like doing right I mean there's there's a thing about cooking in general right bar cooking where you have to be able occasionally to zen out and just produce you know what I mean otherwise this is the wrong industry for you. Yeah I mean I very very early on I enjoyed going for walks.
+
+[4:56] I don't know that's an odd thing to I mean I I live an unhealthy lifestyle I drink and I smoke and I do many things that are unhealthy. But going for a little walk through the city and picking things and tasting things that you find along that walk because you can forage in the city that was something that I was very early on something that really intrigued me and gave me the headspace which you don't get in the city. I think it's very easy to get caged in. Tell me about it. Yeah, Nastasia and I I think both have a love-hate relationship with our with our fine city.
+
+[5:24] Which I still love New York had to but yeah you know. Yeah. Just sucks sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[5:30] I I'm lucky. I have a I now live in Denmark, so I commute into the city. I go into London maybe twice a month. I get my fix of the city and I then get the hell out of there. Uh speaking of forage, you know the uh existing conditions, I don't know if they have it today.
+
+[5:43] At our bar, we currently have a New York City foraged. I tried it, it's really good. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Linden Linden's in.
+
+[5:49] Oh, cool. And so uh, you know, l if you're walking down the street of a city and you're like, what's that smell? And it's pleasant. There's a good chance in temperate regions. I mean it's you know, we're not like a honeysuckle kind of an area or like wild rose bushes or whatnot.
+
+[6:04] Linden flowers, amazing smell, right? Linden flower, amazing. Uh yeah, so we nitromuddle the linden into uh a light because it's a light flavor into Plymouth's because it's light. Yeah. And uh simple, that's it.
+
+[6:17] Like Linden, simple lemon, and and uh simple is good. Yeah. Simple is always good. I know. All right, so you want to describe your uh describe your we actually do have a caller on the line.
+
+[6:27] You want to hit that first? All right, let's see what they let's see. Caller, is this a a gin or a cooking or just a random rant-related question? It is a cooking related question. All right, what do you got for me?
+
+[6:39] Uh on a podcast a while ago, you had mentioned getting into a tip with some renowned chefs about the use of tongs. Uh is it more than an aesthetic issue? Or I I wanted to understand the pros and cons of that. So it was my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrain, Dave Chang, and a number of other people on the anti-Tongue side. And uh I think what it is is that generation, i.e., they're all my age or younger, you know, my age or around my age.
+
+[7:08] That generation, you know, I think that they just saw the tongs as a sign of disrespect that that someone would go grab, let's say the the example they always say is we're gonna get a big get a nice piece of fish and you're gonna grab it with the tongs and flip it, destroy the fish. I was like, no, that's not what tongs are for, doesn't mean tongs ha don't have a place in the kitchen. So I think you know, they saw a bunch of younger cooks that they deemed sloppy who were using the tongs in ways that uh damaged food, right? Um now they're not talking about like at home on your grill, you know, you know, moving stuff around with tongs, stuff like that. But you know, they're talking in their kitchens, when someone's like uh flipping uh a piece of fish, they wanted to see a fish spatula, maybe if you needed extra support, a spoon or something over it, gently flip it over.
+
+[7:56] Um and they didn't want to see kind of you know, you know, roughed up rough housing with the tongs, and that was their main gripe. My only issue with tongs is is that if you should ever make the mistake of going into a deep fryer with tongs once and then lifting your hand up and having the hot oil run down the inside channel of the tongs down your wrist, you'll never make that mistake again. So tongs can have their dangerous aspects too for sure. But I mean, I mean, come on, tongs, am I right? Nope.
+
+[8:29] I don't know. But I think so. I'm very I'm pro-tongs. I'm also pro, you know, telling people in your kitchen, flip fish the way you want. You know what I mean?
+
+[8:39] Don't rip things about with tongs. But whatever. Alright, so you have a spritz bottle. First of all, you have your gin. I have the gin.
+
+[8:49] Then you have three bottles of water of not water. Of water clear, I'm assuming distillate. Yep. And a spritz bottle. So what's going on here?
+
+[8:57] Well, when we started making the gin, I think there's a too much respect for tradition in the distilling business. And most technology that is being used is 19th century technology. And like you are as an earlier adopter of rotavats and distilling under pressure. And we decided we were going to always use a road vap at some point. We weren't going to throw away the baby with the bath water, so we've got a copper pot still.
+
+[9:21] We run distill it through that, which has a certain character. Then we run a rotav, and then one of my partners is a guy called Carebury Hill, who's actually the guy who introduced rotavaps to me and Tony and variously throughout the world. And he had always been banging on about this technology that I still don't totally understand, called supercritical gas extraction. Yeah, good stuff. Um so we combine all three bits of technology, and what we find is it creates a fuller flavor and we get flavors you can't get via traditional distillation.
+
+[9:48] Traditional distillation is limiting, but essential. So with the supercritical, you're doing like supercritical CO2, then putting that base into what? So we do juniper through our supercritical gas extract, which we then hold into ethanol and then mix in at the end. So we basically make a London dry gin on the pot still with 11 botanicals, and it's fairly classic in style. Then we run six botanicals separately through the vacuum still, blend those in, and then we blend the supercritical gas extract in as well.
+
+[10:19] So without giving away any trade secrets. Yes, no trade secrets. Well, like so, like uh of uh of uh I know you're probably a 700 CL guy, but for a 750 person like myself, what what percentage of that is pot still product? What percentage of that is it'll be approximately 70 odd percent pot still coming off it. And then the other bits go in.
+
+[10:42] There's probably no 15% is coming off the the um vacuum stills, and then the rest is CO2. The CO2 is very, very small. Because it's super strong, it's just insane. I mean it's ridiculous stuff. I mean, this is that what that is?
+
+[10:55] This is the CO2 extract. So if we put a kilo of juniper into our CO2 extract, we'll pull off and I'll have to talk in milliliters rather than ounces. Yeah, yeah. We'll probably get 25 milliliters of pure oil. I don't really know what it's exactly is coming off there, but it and that will go into about a liter, and then that'll go across six or so, six hundred bottles or so.
+
+[11:18] It's super poke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so how diluted is this stuff? This is diluted down so that I could get it in to the US without having the rubber gloves on in immigration. It was that's diluted down about half and half with 68 ABV, and it's still super pokey.
+
+[11:39] I mean, the first again, I don't really understand the technology. I mean, I learned things, I'm autodidactic, so I will learn things in the stupid way. So when we first tested the machines, I was hesitant and you know, disbelieving of it. And we went into a laboratory in Newcastle and they turned on this machine, which is a very odd-impressive looking piece of technology. It didn't it look like an old Amstrad computer case.
+
+[12:00] Yeah, yeah. And some buttons made the thing, and there's a bit of shh noise. And when the lab technicians went out, a little drip started to come off this little needle, and I put it on my finger and then stuck it in my mouth. Idiot. But it's the way I learn things.
+
+[12:14] So I, you know, it's not how I encourage people to learn things by doing it like that, but I couldn't taste anything apart from juniper for about a week. It was so intense, the flavour. I have made the same error with straight flavor compounds, and it's it can be yeah, it's not the way to do it. Yeah, yeah. But you do understand the effect of it if you do it that way.
+
+[12:32] Yeah, I did that once with uh methylanthranolate, which is the um uh fake not fake, but the Concord Grape aroma. And I got it all in my mouth, a straight chemical in my mouth. Yeah. And it messed me up, yeah, for like a week. Yeah, it takes a long time to get I mean, you know, I think we we did some um gas chromatography on our different parts of the distillation.
+
+[12:58] So we ran juniper in our pot still, we ran it in the vacuum still, and we ran it through the CO2 extract. And if we ran our pot still efficiently, we could extract about sixty percent of the flavor compounds in there. And we were changing compounds because obviously we're cooking. When we went in the vacuum still, we could get to 70 odd percent, and with less change, because again the but when we own the CO2 we can get 90 odd percent efficiency. Do do the pot people use supercritical CO2?
+
+[13:24] They use it well, yeah yes. That's the when we're when I was looking to buy my technology, I get kept getting led to Californian websites. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're using it to extract THC. Yeah.
+
+[13:34] I mean, that's what's interesting about it. So to me is that f you know, for years back when I was at the French culinary, which you know I haven't been actively in a long time, you know, uh, we were always looking for there was two things we were always looking to do. Extract flavors, separate flavors. That's basically nine out of ten, or you know, extract, you know, solids, liquid. That was always the game, you know, um with a lot of the or create textures.
+
+[14:00] That was the other game. You know what I mean? That we were playing with these kind of new techniques, and I'd always wanted to have uh supercritical CO2, but the price was just out of like out, like no one was doing it on a pilot level. Yeah. And even the pilot machines were built for labs that were gonna do it bigger, so they weren't inexpensive.
+
+[14:18] And I really not inexpensive, but reason even within shooting distance, you know, and of reasonable. And DIYing with the pressures involved didn't seem like such a smart idea. Uh because you know, pressures are high. Yeah. Uh very high.
+
+[14:33] Super high. And uh, and so you know, once again, I mean, thanks to the drug industry, potheads, because I think the more potheads want to do this on a smaller scale, the more uh chefs and bartenders are gonna be able to use this technology. I mean, like you can get uh a rig down now for like 10 grand, right? Or something like this. Yeah, I think ours ours is a fairly cheap one.
+
+[14:55] Ours was fifty. But don't they make an even smaller like pothead one for yeah, they will do. And I think I think with again with all that technology, the more that people use it. I mean, rotor vats were prohibitively expensive when I started using them. And they're still they could be cheaper, they could be cheaper.
+
+[15:08] I've always wanted to build one. Yeah, it's just the market's not that high. No. I already I have enough pe I have enough trouble. Nastasi, right or wrong.
+
+[15:16] We have enough trouble getting people to use a centrifuge with the trading. Imagine the training that goes with a roto vap to get the flavors you want out of it to really control a roto vap. The training is just there's a there's a cool place in London now called Crucible. I don't know whether you've been to Crucible in London, set up by a guy called Stu Bale, who used to work for me and Tony C in the in the past, and he's basically gone out and bought a rotor app, a centrifuge, and bartenders can rent them by the hour now. No, I like that.
+
+[15:43] And he'll give a training on it, so when you go in there, you join it as a club, and then you have to go through a training thing, and then you can go use it whenever you like. Yeah, I haven't seen him in years. I haven't seen him back since back when he was at 69 Colebrook Road. Well, no, he's doing good. He's still as crazy as ever, but he still has the he like he always has that like uh characteristic like a little gray bit going through his eyebrow.
+
+[16:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's still got that. Yeah, he's still got that. Well, wow, how could you lose that? Yeah, like let's say, let's say your eyebrow came in all of a sudden black one day, you're like, well, that's not me anymore.
+
+[16:09] You have to go just die out that one that one little that one little bit. Uh all right, cool. So so are we gonna taste this? Yeah, we should do. Well, well, what I brought in, I brought in the pot still, which is basically a London dry gin, to see where we start, and then you can see how it evolves.
+
+[16:22] And then what is this one watered to? This is at 43. I think it's gonna be at 43. And that's what you that's what your bottle proof is? That's what the bottle proof is.
+
+[16:29] We it took us two years to come up with the recipe. We it took us two years to get the funding. So while we were getting the funding, we were coming up with recipes. Um this is fairly standard. I think when we started, I would have probably made a slightly murkier, more foraged, feral gin.
+
+[16:46] And then as time went by, I started noticing that everybody now, the USP on a gin is Jason the stick an extra botanical in, and that's your USP. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um for those of you that don't know, that's unique selling proposition. And as time went by, I started to realize actually the gins I really liked were the ones that stood the test of type the beef eaters, the tankarase, the plummets, etc. They've been around for a hundred years and were fairly classic, and they were about juniper.
+
+[17:10] Right, and also like the more the closer you hit one of those things, the more versatile it's gonna be for someone uh because the thing is if you're if your gin is way very different, right? It's gonna work in a couple cocktails, you get people to make a signature cocktail with it. But I mean I think what tends to happen again, when you look at those gins, is when you mix with them, one of the botanical skews and becomes forward, and it's never the juniper, or very rarely. In some of the older classic gins, it is, but in more of the modern gins, as soon as you add vermouth or tonic water, whatever simple mix you're adding to it, it'll be the cardman that pops out, or the whatever esoteric botanical they've decided to put in, spins out. And actually, juniper is the heart of gin.
+
+[17:56] Um we have our own juniper on our land. So the juniper was always an inspiration. So it became much more, it became focused back in on the juniper. Wait, bro, let's bring let's taste these other things and then come back to the juniper. You were saying something before we started about uh juniper problems.
+
+[18:09] Yes, this is this is opportunity to talk about this is green juniper from our plants. All right. Um juniper problems. The juniper problems are twofold in the UK. They're not so much in America, but a little bit like phlox are in the 19th century.
+
+[18:23] There are a couple of things that are wiping out juniper across the UK. There's a little insect bug, something that's eating it, and there's also a mold type thing that's killing it. We're really lucky we're in the middle of a national park. We have a military shooting range, one side of us, so nobody goes there. Um then the other side, it's basically big moorlands that are owned privately.
+
+[18:44] So there's no way that people can get this shit onto our land. Now, from an American perspective, because we've heard this all the time, what the hell is a moor exactly? A moor, I think, is probably unique to the UK. There are there are, I imagine in Scandinavia a few moors. It's mainly a if you imagine what Scotland looks like.
+
+[19:01] Yeah, yeah, that is more than generally. It's a lot of heather, a lot of bracken, wild blueberries, bill blaberries they're called in the UK. So like shrubby grassy. Yeah, the the shrubs tend to grow to about half a meter, a couple of feet high. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[19:18] And it tends to change colour constantly, it goes really bright green in the summer due to the the blueberry plants, or the blaberies are really vivid green, an almost acid green colour. And it's sitting down on peat. So peat is decayed plant matter that's been sat and compressed over the years. Acidic soil. It's an acidic soil in general.
+
+[19:36] The juniper oddly doesn't particularly like the acidic soil. So it will grow where we have it. It's growing in stands on water courses where the acidity isn't quite so high. And the junipers we have, I believe will be five or six hundred years old. Whoa.
+
+[19:53] Yeah, I mean that most people name their stills, myrtle or whatever they are. Our juniper plants are named. Wow. So we have Miriam, who I think is approximately 500 years old. At the base, she is about three or four feet across.
+
+[20:07] Now, well now what uh so I I'm used to like American ornamental juniper, which is not such an agust or magisterial thing. Yeah. Are these are they still because of where they grow? Are they low and spread out? Are they the weather where we are is particularly horrendous?
+
+[20:25] I mean, it's sometimes stunning andly beautiful, but it's pretty wild. Um, and it's not massively cold, but it's horrendously windy. So they tend to be growing inside little valleys, and they are hunkered down against the elements. They are twisted and old, and they follow the contours of the land. If you go to if you go to Italy, you'll see juniper growing and it's beautifully prounded and upright, like you know, a lot of it looks like the typical Italian crowd.
+
+[20:53] Ours are wizened old fiends and hags of the moor that sits low into the hill. That's by style, I like that. But they they they have a unique flavour. That the one you just tasted is the green, which nobody is again. I think one person started using green juniper.
+
+[21:06] We use the green because the green, the juniper takes two and a half years to ripen on the bush. It only ripens on the female bushes. There are males and females. We have a lot of males who are only active once a year. And for the rest of the year, they don't do very much.
+
+[21:14] And it's the females that you want. Do you even bother naming the male ones? The males have no names, it's only females who have names. Yeah. Um because of the age of this juniper or these juniper plants, they are unique.
+
+[21:35] And the green has a there's a certain when you smell the green, it has a sort of like sandalwoody aroma. I don't know what they call it in Roman Catholic Church where you swing those balls full of it has that, it reminds me of going into a Catholic church. And which technique was this? Well, that's that's vacuum distillation. Well, it's got the it's got that fresh, yeah, like all there note, you know what I mean?
+
+[21:56] Yeah, and it's there, and I think you know, when we've seen the GCMS, we're we're capturing about 70 odd percent of the flavor compounds. So for those of you that never used a vacuum still before, it's got two main advantages. One, you get, you know, as Nick said, a very high capture rate of the flavors involved. Also, you're under vacuum, so there's almost no oxidation of uh compounds, and there's little to no, depending on how you're running it, little to no heat. So it's the I mean I haven't tasted super critical, but of the stuff that you can normally accomplish, it's kind of always got the freshness, the high notes, all of that stuff, which is which is very nice.
+
+[22:30] Now, I'm interested, so tree to tree, how different is the flavor, even like with the same varieties? Because is it like a mulberry tree where two trees, one is garbage and one's delicious? Well, no, I mean they tend to ripen at different rates. So again, we're fairly lucky that because the distillery is in the heart of where we produce a lot of the botanicals, we can taste them during the course, and we had two years to run up to it. So we saw them over the seasons, and so we now harvest at specific times of year where we think the flavor is right.
+
+[22:58] From bush to bush, I don't think there's a huge amount of difference. Or not enough that it would become critical to us. And when you say green juniper, is it never gonna go pro red? It will go it'll go black the following year. So we don't harvest our black juniper berries to use in the gin.
+
+[23:15] We harvest them to propagate more juniper bushes. So we have a propagation program because of the disease that kidding things out, we're obviously paranoid about it. Right, right, right. So we now have several hundred plants in propagation from the blackberries. We let the animals take back and we propagate.
+
+[23:30] So then the other one, the more standard, where are you sourcing those from? Does it matter? Do you it does make a big difference? We we source so in the pot still we run Macedonian and Italian juniper. Uh we chose those two because we like the flavor profile of them.
+
+[23:46] And we also, to be honest, I didn't particularly like the flavor profile of our black juniper. I think it ha they'll have a place at some point, but they didn't taste as robust. The green was very, very distinct. The the regular juniper is great in cooking. It's wonderful.
+
+[24:01] Yeah, it's really really wonderful. I think it's underused in cooking. I mean, where I am, because I'm based in Denmark, so in the Scandinavian regions, you'll find it cropping up constantly. Yeah. It's one of the prevalent flavors.
+
+[24:13] I don't think the Nastasia, do you get it that much here in the US? No. No. No. Do you like it?
+
+[24:19] I like it. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, all right. So we're actually well, we'll talk about the juniper. So this is the CO2 extract as we use it.
+
+[24:26] So this has been watered, diluted down and way the hell watered way the hell down. In my um strangely, I don't know what to describe that as urine-coloured bottle. Uh that's a the uh for Americans, uh, country time lemonade. Yeah. That's a that's a more polite way of saying it.
+
+[24:46] Oh yeah. It's got a kick to it. Yeah. Wow. It's like it's also got more of kind of a like a back pepper note in it than the other uh not black, you know, but like a peppery note in the back.
+
+[24:58] Is that just it's the same proof, so it's not the alcohol, it's not alcohol, it's just coming the thing is through distillation you're not getting sugars and oils. Through CO2 extraction, we take the sugars and the oils. So it gives a mouthfeel, which is different, I think, um due to the oils and the sugars. And the flavor profile is drastically different to any of our distillation techniques. Now let me ask you another speaking of distillation, right?
+
+[25:23] So there is in okay, let's just put it this way. In the industry, in every industry, there are things that get a bad name for a good reason, and then people can't get around why those things got a bad name, and so they can't wrap their head around someone using something for a good reason. So I've always said this is that if you're doing something to make a product better, then you're doing a good thing. If you're doing it to make it simply to make it cheaper, then you're doing a bad thing. Now, there are a lot of people who are against extract-based chins, right?
+
+[26:01] Because it's seen as the kind of fake adulterated b a bathtub variety where you're just buying chemicals and and making a gin. Now, someone who doesn't kind of understand what you're doing could see the use of of supercritical extracts as extract-based gin making. I would argue that you're just trying to control the flavor even more, and clearly it's not making it any cheaper. You don't it doesn't make it cheaper, it makes it more expensive. Right.
+
+[26:31] Um but do you have that problem? Do you have to explain that to people? Adding extracts as opposed to only being a dissolute. Do you have these purists, or have we are we thankfully moved beyond that? I think we're start.
+
+[26:40] I mean, I think we're starting to move beyond that. I think the gin category or the way they categorize gin as you know, London dry being seen as the epitome and the height of good quality gin, is a fairly archaic idea. Yeah, I was just having this argument yesterday. Like, why do you even have to call something London dry? If it's not London dry, then tell me something.
+
+[27:01] I mean, it's like because it's the standard It's the standard way of doing everything, and it's using you know 19th century technology. Yeah. In many cases, very crudely. I think the more we talk about using technology, and the more it's a little bit like the food business. You know, a lot of cutting edge technology in the food business was first used in the cheaper end of the food business for properties of cost.
+
+[27:27] Yeah, yeah. Whereas when you put it in the hands of the guys at Noma or Booley or whoever it might Heston, it's seen as being creative and genius. You put it in the hands of one of the big fast food chains and it seems being the evil. It's who's using it. Well, all during the early 2000s, that was the fight.
+
+[27:41] That was the fight to show that using technology in the kitchen or in bar, as long as you're using it for the right reason, you're doing an honorable thing. And it was a huge fight. Like a lot of the old guard back then were just they would beat on you. You know what I mean? Like uh, they would beat on you, call you industrial, call you, you know what I mean?
+
+[28:01] Like everything is industrial. I mean, again, industrial has negative, but if it's industrious, it's not a negative. Right, right. So, I mean I mean, I think we have to talk about technology. Technology is important.
+
+[28:15] Um it adds flavors that I cannot get through tradition. Right, and I'm interested in flavors. So if you're interested in flavors, whether you like them or not, is a different thing. But the creation of flavors and the exposure of flavors through technology, it's got to be a good thing. Right, especially if if your goal, which is what I'm getting off you, your goal is not to produce something with a bunch of different flavors from what gin would normally have, right?
+
+[28:43] Because that's been done by a million people. And you're not out to just try to make, you know, I'm gonna remake beef, or I'm gonna re- That's beef eater, or remake tank. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like you're not gonna do by the way, Gordons. Do people drink Gordons anymore?
+
+[28:58] I have no idea. Anyway, I think so. I mean there's nothing wrong with it if it's the right ABV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's a cheap and 37 and a half, then it's not so good.
+
+[29:05] That's yeah, yeah. So what you're trying to do is make something that is gin flavored, but a different, like with it, and like like you say, with unique selling proposition, and I, you know, I I feel very sympathetical with that because I I'm not trying to necessarily make things that are wacky, I just want to do it the way I'm doing it to get the flavor I want. Yeah, I'm after flavor. I'm interested in flavor. I mean, the reason I like the bar world is because it deals with flavor.
+
+[29:27] I like the food world as well, but I'm not as good as as a chef. Yeah. Alright, we're gonna take this call and then we're gonna taste the uh the gin altogether. This episode is brought to you by Tabert Inn. Tabard Inn, Washington, DC's quintessential hotel, is located on a quiet tree-lined street, just five blocks from the White House.
+
+[29:46] Vibrant yet unassuming the tabard is comprised of 40 sleeping rooms, each unique in character and design. Feast on an eclectic American cuisine in their acclaimed restaurant. Or enjoy a cocktail and listen to live jazz in one of their cozy Victorian seating areas. Mingle with travelers from around the world who find the tabard the only place to stay when taking their travels to Washington. For more information, visit tabardin.com.
+
+[30:12] Caller, you on the air. I hear it's urgent. Hi, uh, it is a bit urgent. Thanks for taking my call. Um, sorry, not Jen question, but it's a cooking issue and a wedding issue.
+
+[30:21] Oh. Um, so I'm getting married at the end of the month, and uh, we're definitely gonna get a bunch of different charcuterie, including I I'm leaning towards a Soriano ham. I know you have issues with that particular ham is great. I don't like the name. Right.
+
+[30:35] Um, we just wanted something American, but with yeah, that European style that we can flice really, really, really thin. Uh the issue is that because of the venue, we have storage and transportation issues, so we're gonna have to do it ahead of time uh for all the charcuterie. But I'm particularly worried about the ham because you know it's thin and it can dry out. And I just want to make sure what would you say is like the maximum time and the best storage opportunities that we can try and do for that. Um yeah, like in we can't put in, you know, we don't have like a vacuum you like saver or anything like that.
+
+[31:06] Right. So uh by the way, uh I had some delicious do you know? Did you get it through uh like okay, fine uh full disclosure? Patrick Martin's Heritage Foods is the founder of this radio network. But did you buy it through did you buy it through Heritage or did you get it directly from Sam Edwards?
+
+[31:26] Um I haven't bought it yet, so if you have a suggestive one, I was about to pull the trigger on that like this week as soon as possible. Not to push the you know, the house brand here, but um Patrick, Patrick Martins and Heritage Foods, they get a lot of uh Heritage Breed meat. That's their deal, right? And a lot of the pigs that they get are like very nice, very highly marbled. And over the past five, six years, they've been selling raw hams to some of the better producers.
+
+[31:56] So your your uh Newsom's, which is Nancy Mahathy, who was at the bar the other day, uh, which is a fantastic ham, and uh also Sam Edwards' Seriano, uh, and I and he has a couple others, but then typically those ones, a lot of them are sold back to and distributed by Heritage uh food. So if you want an American ham, kind of an American taste, but you really want like a highly marbled, like really kind of uncuous ham. I have tried a bunch of them and they are delicious. So like just see what they see what they have. And also Patrick will guarantee the age on a ham.
+
+[32:32] Uh so you know, he he likes to take ones that are a year better. So that you know, once you get over about a year, uh they start slicing better, and they're not gonna be as wet, and this is gonna be an issue for you. If you take a nine-month-old ham and slice it, uh, it will slice fine right now. But uh on storage, it will gum up a lot more than like a ham that's aged for a year. Likewise, a ham that has more fat, as long as you don't get it hot, but has more fat but is more aged, will tend to hold better once it's sliced than one uh that is uh, you know, got more moisture and and less fat.
+
+[33:10] That's just life. That's how life works. Um but now and I'll also have to say that obviously that like in the world of sliced things, you'd rather have someone slice your salmon for you right now and eat it. Uh you'd much rather have that than buy pre-packaged sliced uh, you know, uh lox or nova in my in my book. You know, if you've never had someone slice Nova or Locks for you and then eaten it right away, you have not had the proper uh uh smoked salmon.
+
+[33:38] But uh ham is similar, not quite as bad, but don't despair. Your main problem is gonna be separating them out. And uh if you can get like that waxy butcher paper, you've got to get the one uh cut right brand wax paper that you buy in the supermarket is not durable enough, and the moisture in the ham will wrinkle it and then it'll get nasty. Get the get nice stuff like a butcher would use, and uh or like like uh DiPalos here in New York or Delhi has. And if you layer the slices consistently, you can overlap them a little bit and they should peel apart.
+
+[34:13] Uh, but you overlap them and then always have the one layer on paper and not on the other. You will be able to separate them and present them nicely on on a thing. But that's really the only way to do it. So you get them on the paper, you can then fold the paper like triptych style, as long as you're never folding ham on ham ever. Uh, and then wrapping that, excluding the oxygen from it so that the um uh the fat doesn't oxidize, uh, and you should be able to keep it in relatively fine feather for uh for the big day.
+
+[34:42] Got it. Awesome. Anything else for the wedding? You're not catering yourself, are you? Please tell me you're not.
+
+[34:48] I am not catering, uh, but I uh set it up like productions that I do in Los Angeles, so I'm kind of used to the vendor thing. Um I will say that uh like you, I also never called my in-laws by name, and my mom was super mad uh when she they found out a couple years back. So I totally understand that. Well, yeah, I mean it's just like once you don't do something, you kind of dig in, you know? Yeah.
+
+[35:11] Like a you know, certain things I'm too old to change, you know. Like anyway, uh like uh have a good time. I hope it all works well. Let us know how the ham was. Well dude, thank you very much.
+
+[35:21] All righty. Um, so let's taste this chin. Yeah, so this is the this is the finished product. Yep. So this is the pop, this six different vacuum this summer repeats.
+
+[35:31] So again, some of the thing is, and I think I like it when I make cocktails as well, is I like layering the same flavor in different iterations over the top of one to increase the amplitude of that particular flavor, whether it be black currants or whatever. So if I make a black currant drink, I'll generally use black currant two or three times in a drink to expose more of that flavor. Right, lot less. If you add a bunch of different things, it's just yeah, you're just muddling things up. I mean, you know, it becomes murky and cloudy.
+
+[35:56] Yeah. Shotgun mixing, I call it. And then the main thing is it it's very classic gin. Can I water it some? I want to see what it tastes like when it waters.
+
+[36:04] Yeah, yeah. Try to take it. So by the way, hopefully we're not making any mouth noises. Uh, we had a comment, uh, question in from last week's show. Do you read that one, Nastasia?
+
+[36:17] Oh my goodness. Uh you should you should take a gander. While you're pouring this, uh I'm going to uh read this. Nick O from Cincinnati writes in. Excuse me, Nick, for one second.
+
+[36:29] This is not you, Nick. This is Nico from Cincinnati. I've never been to Cincinnati. You ever been to Cincinnati? No, but my friend is.
+
+[36:37] Oh, your friend's the violinist in Cincinnati. You know, all I can think about now that you uh you can put music in Cincinnati in my head. Now I got WKRP going through my head. Uh now the song is going through my head. Sorry.
+
+[36:47] I won't sing it for you because my voice is not up to singing WKRP in Cincinnati. I had some blues to it. Yeah, yeah. So uh hey Nastasia. I'm looking uh to buy a Sears All, which is a piece of equipment that Nastasi and I manufacture.
+
+[37:00] But the replacement screens seem absurdly expensive. $25 to $30 for some little metal screens. At the moment, this is the only thing keeping me from buying. Question: What makes Sears all screens so expensive? And two, are there any plans to do something to bring down the price?
+
+[37:15] Well, Nick, uh the short answer is it is this is going to be unbelievable to you, but literally half the manufacturing price of the entire unit is that one little metal screen. Uh they tend not to break in home use, by the way. Like uh very rarely do they burn out, and that's one of the reasons they're so expensive. First of all, the rear metal screen is not any normal alloy. It's uh Ekoloi or Inc and L, I forget, 693 is the, I forget whether it's Inkaloy or Incon L.
+
+[37:44] It's a it was a metal that was developed for uh aerospace technology to be in the back end of um three you know turbojets for the uh exhaust nozzles uh prior to the development of ceramics for the same thing. So no one uses high technology, high temperature metals in that application anymore. So there's almost literally no market for this metal in the world anywhere. It's made by a corporation called Specialty Metal. Specialty metal would not make uh wire for us.
+
+[38:12] So, and it's the only metal that we were able to find that could withstand the heat. So we had to find someone in China who would do a knockoff alloy of this super metal that's no longer used by anyone and was never used in screen formation, then have them make it into a screen. But we're not done yet. That still was not uh that's not even all of the cost. That's like half of that cost.
+
+[38:34] The other part is that we found that they were still burning out, even with the uh 693 in it. So we have them electrocoted, electroplated with palladium. And uh palladium ain't cheap, and uh electroplating with palladium ain't cheap. Now, it is possible in the future we'll be able to bring the price down a little bit because currently we were not able to sort source an industrial palladium producer, so it's literally someone who coats jewelry with palladium, is what we use. So half the cost of the entire thing for us is that little screen in the back.
+
+[39:07] But the good news is we've done a lot of work on that little screen, and odds are unless you're really burning in a lot, it's not gonna break. Uh would you say it's accurate, Nastasia? Yeah, that is true. Uh secondly, uh uh Matt, they don't Nick does not want us to do pledge drives on this program anymore unless you buy airtime, which is a strong idea. I like that.
+
+[39:28] And then the last thing is the next thing, the cooks illustrated guy, Paul, friend of the show, Paul. The next thing Paul could eats on mic can be my butt. He used the A version of butt. But he says, the next thing he eats on the air can on mic can be my butt. Dave fed him pretzels from an MRE for some reason, and the sociopath just leaned right into the mic and chewed.
+
+[39:52] Disgusting. Um, please ban Paul. I had to turn the podcast off. That guy ruined my commute. Wow.
+
+[40:00] In defense of Paul, I also went in for a good hard chew on that. Why are you admitting that? Now Nick's gonna come and get you. I mean, he can try and kick me off the show, but that's not. I mean, yeah.
+
+[40:08] Okay. Anyway, so real real world world repercussions. Nick says, I have access to military MREs and was ready to offer to send some, but never mind now. Tell Dave to look for omelet MREs. They're by far the worst.
+
+[40:23] I believe that. Oh my god, omelets on uh omelets that have been held for a long time are just oh I had an airplane omelet again recently because uh uh Blaze came on. Remember Blaze came on, and I forget what it was, but he was like, Oh, United's omelet. And I was like, I'm pretty sure that's gonna be garbage, dude. And he was like, Well, I'm in first class.
+
+[40:43] I was like, you chump. That's what it's like. Oh, a chump. He was fun on the show, but that's a chumpy thing to say. I had an omelet on United the other day.
+
+[40:51] Sucked. Rubbish. Yeah, so bad. Uh all right, so let's take your own food on there, Line. So this is the gin watered.
+
+[40:58] That's jump gin watered down. Yeah, the structure's still there, still tastes like gin. Still tastes like gin. Still tastes like juniper. Although you know that pepper hit in the back from that super critical stuff's really still there.
+
+[41:07] Yeah, yeah. A little bit goes a long way. A little bit goes a long way. So Nastasia's gonna spray that uh that straight stuff in her mouth? I wouldn't suggest spraying it in your mouth.
+
+[41:16] You could wear it as perfume. I've got it spritzed on me. There's a whole bunch of okay. Now here's another thing. You hear this a lot, I'm sure.
+
+[41:25] People are like, maybe me, pine tree. Junipers don't taste like pine trees, really. I mean, if you've ever eaten a pine tree, which Nastasia and I have, you know what I mean? It is a different flavor. It is a different flavor.
+
+[41:35] There are resin notes in juniper. There are piney notes in juniper, but pine trees. There are similar terpenes in both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and juniper is of the coniferous family.
+
+[41:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a little bit like saying a lemon tastes like a lime. Yes, they do taste similar, but they are not the same. Or like a lemon tastes like a lemon leaf. Yeah.
+
+[41:53] You know, because then when people think of pine, they're thinking of the needles, which I and I love it, but it has a very pine needles, spruce needles, pine needles have a very kind of polarizing hard resin hit. The juniper does juniper doesn't have as much of that hard resin hit, would you say? It definitely is softer than the pine. I think again, I we use Douglas fir in our gin, and we also make a Douglas fur vodka to the um and it depends how you treat your botanical, what flavors you extract from your botanical. So if you start to dry pine, you'll get more estery sort of notes come off, and you get these very ripe tropical sort of notes come off once the drying process starts.
+
+[42:39] And then you have to arrest the drying process to capture those flavors. If you take it straight off the tree, it's become it's as people imagine pine. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and say that I hope Nastasi and I never have to distill another pine tree. Bye, that is fun.
+
+[42:53] I love distilling pine trees. We had to buy the pine tree. Take it, you know, take it up to our our lab in major air quotes was a garbage room, and rip rip all the needles off by hand while all of these prospective students were coming by and they were like, I don't know, second Christmas. Like, if you want, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:18] Blah blah blah, blah, blah. And then like, you know, we're sitting there, how many hours did it take us to distill that whole tree? But you know what you are to me, Dave. What? You know how when you're in a taxi cab and the taxi cab driver is on the phone with somebody, and you're like, and they sometimes like it'll just be like a conversation, then it'll drop and it'll be silent, and then they get back on the and then they start talking again.
+
+[43:43] Yeah. That like if I were a taxi driver, you would be the person on the other end of the phone. What do you mean? I don't even understand what that means. I'm saying that even if we're like taking down a tree, we're still talking about stuff and laughing.
+
+[43:57] Yeah, about other random stuff. Yeah, r very random stuff. So you're saying taking a tree down is equivalent to driving a taxi? Yes. Yes.
+
+[43:59] You are yeah, you are my person on the other end of the phone. Speaking of random things, Nastasi and I were at an event last night. City. I was not there for very long. But anyway, City Meals on Wheels.
+
+[44:13] It's a good event. And uh by the way, Nick is here for Bar Convent Brooklyn. You can come uh chat with him about come chat with him about Heppel. Great product. Uh he'll be there at what when to I'm there after the show and then I'm there tomorrow again.
+
+[44:28] All right. Go say hello. It's it's worth a talk. God knows a lot. Anyway, uh so I'm at this event yesterday, right?
+
+[44:36] And uh we're serving Kendra Hada, you know, her drink, the Sunday brunch, which is a gin-based drink. We were using uh we're using Jared's uh sip Smith, he was the sponsor of Megan. And by the way, if you had his slow, I like his slow gin quite a lot. We did it, we took his sis slow gin is relatively low in sugar. Uh so I did uh two ounces uh which is 60 mils for you uh of uh the slow and then just uh three ounces 90 mils of water, carbonated it just like that at the event just for just for giggles, and put a l uh lemon twist over the top of that on point.
+
+[45:15] Slow's great. Everybody thinks slow is a winter drink. Yeah, no. We've just made a slow. I bake it with we mix it with sherry on top of the tonic water, and it's my favorite summer drink.
+
+[45:23] Yeah, it's good. Well, I think it's like it's for those Americans that remember it, it tastes like poison because we've only had bad. Sweet. Overly sweet. Overly sweet and like, you know, I don't know, like, probably made with slows that have been boiled to oblivion into some sort of paste or jelly.
+
+[45:41] I'd probably not put on gin either. They're probably put on neutral as well. A lot of what were called slow gins were not gin at all. They had. Yeah, but I know for those of you that have never had a proper slow gin.
+
+[45:51] Uh when are you coming out with yours soon? It's available in Europe. We'll be doing another harvest this year. So it might come over here. Right.
+
+[45:58] So if you if you don't, if you don't can't find Nick's, uh search out Sismith, it's a good product. Anyway, so we're at this event yesterday and getting to the heart of the story. And dude drops a glass. Were you here for that? No.
+
+[46:12] Dude drops a glass right in front of my station. Now, when you're working at an event, right, usually it's not always easy to get around your station to the front. You know what I mean? It's kind of like you're barricaded and there's a bunch of people here at your station. Dude shatters a glass and he makes the classic mistake of trying to pick up the glass for you.
+
+[46:31] I'm like, I'm like, stop. Stop. Like, don't. You know what I mean? Like, and and and I want you to, and I do the same thing because you want to help.
+
+[46:41] As a guest or as a customer, however you call yourself, please don't do that. Like, here's what you don't understand. I don't want you to do that, not really because I care about you. I theoretically care about you in general, right? But like in reality, what it is is is that if you cut yourself, my day just got so much worse.
+
+[47:02] You know what I mean? Like, what do you say about this, Nick? Yeah, I mean, it's one of the times when I shout at customers if they're about to do something that will hurt them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and again, not because I know you.
+
+[47:12] I probably don't. I don't want anyone to get hurt, but I really don't want you to be bleeding everywhere during my service, because then we're really going down. You know what I mean? So step away and let's leave it to the professionals. Yeah, leave it to the professionals.
+
+[47:26] So then I'm moving the trash. I'm literally I'm like, I'm like fending off this guy. It was a bad break, too. Like lots of big curved pieces sticking straight up and people walking around with because it's summery here with their open toes and all of this stuff. I'm like, I gotta get out and fight.
+
+[47:43] So like I'm pulling the trash can out so that I can get out behind my station. And a lady is so interested in throwing away her plate of garbage from Morimoto next door, who was the chef next door, that as I'm doing it, she still throws it and just throws this plate of like old sauce all over my pants. And I'm like, really? Really, really, really? 48 years on this planet, and this is what this is this is it.
+
+[48:09] 48 years. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? People have some respect for the person that's trying to serve you. That's all I'm saying.
+
+[48:19] And saving you. Yeah, yeah. Clutching yourself. Yeah, yeah. Uh how do we even get on that?
+
+[48:24] Why are we even talking about that? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, we gotta go. No, no, we're not gonna go.
+
+[48:28] We're staying later. Okay. That's what Matt said. Okay. Right, Matt?
+
+[48:31] I I allow it. All right. So uh I have a couple questions, but first, uh, so I'm getting rid unfortunately of my house in Connecticut, so I'm no longer gonna have any outside of the city space to think about. And it was a real strong outside of the city. It was like forests and like, you know, deer, snakes, toads, the whole whole nine yards.
+
+[48:52] Uh sassafras everywhere. You could you could make filet for months. Lindera benzoin, which is an interesting little berry that no one uses because it's you know not grass, but it's which stands for gender regarded as safe, but has been used for centuries. Um anyway, so because I have to condense all of my books into one place, which is an apartment in New York, for the first time in my life, I have to get rid of books. Which is hard.
+
+[49:20] I don't ever get rid of books. Books are sacred. And I I had to get rid of I had to get rid of like almost half of my books. So I had to go through and be like, okay, uh certain things that I've never read that I've always meant to read, I'm not gonna, you know, need anymore, gone. Uh the Concordance of the Bible, okay.
+
+[49:39] I have the internet, I don't need that anymore. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. Uh but then a bunch of things, uh, you know, my you know, my wife Jeff was like, do you really need that? And my response was, oh hell, that's a classic in the field.
+
+[49:54] Right? But just like a random field. So I'm gonna do like a like occasionally I think we should just do a mini segment here called Classic in the Field. Classic in the Field, yeah. Right?
+
+[50:04] And so like I brought one. Uh I brought I brought two actually. Uh so last week you weren't here, Nick, but I was talking about this is my beater copy, which The Effects of Nuclear Weapons is an amazing book put out by uh United States government back when they were actually worried about winning a nuclear confrontation. And this is the actual book. It's intense.
+
+[50:25] I'm not gonna discuss that. It was brought up, I just want to prove that this was a book. Now, this is the book we're gonna talk about. Uh it's called Sawyer's Paper Bag Cookery. Now be careful when you flip through this because it's from 1911.
+
+[50:37] This is the first American edition. Oh wow. Came out a little bit earlier in England. It was either 11 or maybe a year earlier, uh 1910 in England. It's an English book.
+
+[50:46] But because of the era, the papers are very fragile. They're very brittle because it's uh acid paper. So, a little bit about this book, which is a classic in the field. So, when I was a child, uh smells good. When I was a child, every couple of years, uh there a new new recipe would become popular for paper bag this and paper bag that.
+
+[51:05] You remember this, Nick? Yeah. 70s and 80s, uh paper bag cooking definitely was a thing, and it kind of fades out and comes back. I first learned about it because uh President Eisenhower's daughter, whose name escapes me, wrote a book, and it had paper bag chicken in it. And every week, when I was a child, I would make paper bag chicken.
+
+[51:24] So the paperback chicken I would make, I used my own personal, it's not five spice, my five spice mix at the time was salt, pepper, paprika, curry powder, garlic powder, because when I was a kid, I think I've spoken about this before, I put garlic powder on absolutely everything. So you I would rub, hand rub cold butter into the chicken, and then add those things, predominantly, of course, salt, throw it in a paper bag and throw it in the oven and let it cook. And the results for uh a nine-year-old, I thought were fantastic. I mean, as far as nine-year-old cooked chickens go, it was fantastic. Uh, I haven't done it in many years.
+
+[51:57] But anyway, uh later, I became aware of a very famous chef named Alexis Sawyer. So, spelled Sawyer not like sawing things, Sawyer as in soy sauce. Alexis Sawyer was some people say the first celebrity chef was a French guy who was cooking for uh some princes, royal, you know, princes in uh you know obviously they had been deprinced because it was after the French Revolution, but uh, you know, the kind of wealthy aristocrats in France, and then ended up moving to England. So kind of the Jacques Papin of his day, who you know used to cook for like Francois Mineran and De Gaulle, I think, and then came to the United States. He was kind of like that.
+
+[52:33] Came to England, uh, became the chef at a place called the Reform Club. You ever been to the Reform Club? Yeah, yeah, the Reform Club is phenomenal. Is there is a restaurant still good? They still do, because it's one of his famous dishes is um the Lamb Cutless Reform stuff.
+
+[52:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They still have that on the menu. Is it any good? I've never had it's good. It's good.
+
+[52:48] Can any Jamoke go get go there? Or you need an invite? You need to be a member of the aristocracy or have a friend. Can you get do you have a friend? Can you get us?
+
+[52:54] I have a friend. Maybe we have a mutual friend who can probably take you there. Really? I've been there with a mutual friend of ours. Yeah, yeah?
+
+[53:00] I'll tell you about all fair. All right. Okay. So anyway, so he becomes the chef of this place called the Reform Club, which at the time was progressive, like rich aristocracy, but like progressive, i.e. reform, and became a wildly popular, wildly famous chef.
+
+[53:14] Wrote a book called The Gastronomic Regenerator in 1946, uh, that talked about professional kind of high-end cooking. 1846. Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry, 1846. Professional high-end cooking. He had one of the first kitchens in the UK with gas.
+
+[53:27] Fully gas, yeah. Yeah, fully gas kitchen. Amazing. The book is amazing. I first learned about this from MFK Fisher.
+
+[53:33] By the way, the way that you used to learn about things is that you would read a book, okay? And then in that book, right, that author would then talk about books that she had read. Right. Now, I actually got uh guff. Someone gave me guff in liquid intelligence.
+
+[53:47] I would talk about where I learned things or where sources had come from or ideas. That's how I used to learn is that like authors would say things like this, or in bibliographies or annotations. So I learned about the gastronomic regenerator, which was the book of its time in English. Obviously, you know, in French there were different books. He then also, uh, when the uh potato famine, when the great when the great starving started happening, he wrote uh a book somewhat some of his stuff somewhat didn't it didn't have working misguided, but soup kitchens for for the Irish, and he was interested in cooking for poor people after he'd written his rich person's book.
+
+[54:22] He wrote several uh you know uh people, you know, poor poorer people's books. Uh also invented a cook stove during the Crimean War that was in use by the UK for field cooking called the Sawyer stove was in use into the 1980s. So very kind of but he died very young. Uh he had his own brand called Sawyer's Nectar, I think it, which was uh sort of like peach flavored bottled cocktail. And let's remake that crap.
+
+[54:47] Um yeah, he did loads of interesting stuff with that guy. So his grandson was also a cook. His grandson, Nicholas Sawyer. So when I saw this book, 1911, I'm like, that's not right. The years, Nicholas Sawyer, his grandson and his grandson invented paper bag cooking.
+
+[55:04] Now, now, uh that might not be a big deal to you, but for anyone that grew up in the 70s or 80s, paperbag cooking is the real thing. In the very first paragraph of this book, so this is 1911. And just so you think that, oh, we're lying, this is garbage. Paper bags were first invented, mass-produced paper bags were invented in 1852. The first flat bottom paper bag was invented in 1871, and the first pleated paper bag that we have was in 1883.
+
+[55:30] So it's about the right time to come up with the paperback cooking. Also, notice that if you grew up in the 70s or 80s, you weren't worried about chemicals in your bag. No, it just wasn't what you were worried about. And we didn't have plastic bags. Everything came in a paper bag.
+
+[55:42] Every house had a bunch of paper grocery bags in them. Because that was the only method to get your groceries home. Because one, none of us were carrying around little nylon satchels, and there were no plastic bags. So um, so he invented this, but right away he says it's the same thing we've been doing forever on papillot, but now we have these convenient bags. And at the time, actually, he was saying that the paper bags they were manufacturing were quite uh polluted with whatever they were making it with because I think he was just trying to hawk his own bags.
+
+[56:12] Yeah. But um, he basically says if you use the regular you know paper bags from 1910 or 1911, it's gonna give an off flavor to your food. So you should buy Sawyer's bags. Sawyer's paper bags, of course. But uh all of the all of the advantages of cooking on papayote, and I might do this in my book, The Miracle of Moisture Management coming up, because it is I am I am gonna write it, Nastasia.
+
+[56:36] Uh paper bag on papiote and paperbag cooking is a form of moisture management. It's a so it's a combination steam, and then once the initial steam goes away, roasting technique that is kind of kind of cool. So this you're holding the very first paper bag cookbook, Nicholas Sawyer's paper bag cookery 1911. Classic in the field. I've taken a photo of it so I can.
+
+[56:56] Yeah, classic in the field. The effect of nuclear weapons, also a classic in the field. That I'll be buying. Yeah, yeah. Uh when you buy it, look in the back.
+
+[57:04] I took it. The reason I have this is my beater copy. I have my collectible copy at home. I bought this because I was missing the nuclear detonation bomb calculator in the back. Make sure that when you buy your copy, it has it's a slide rule in circular form of uh how to calculate uh how far away you are and how many seconds it's gonna take for the blast to get to you versus how many kilotons or megatons the uh bomb is.
+
+[57:29] Uh, here's the news by the time that you have read it off of the slide rule, it is too late. It is too late. Uh anyway, uh alright. We we have one more, one more, one more, one more. Uh Bob right, by the way, if you want to hear more classic in the field uh editions, such as uh pigeons, how to make them pay, or anything like this, which is the classic on raising pigeons for food, uh, you know, just let me know on at cooking issues, my Twitter, let me know that you want to hear more of them, and I will bring more classics in the field in.
+
+[58:05] Uh Bob writes in, and you'll be interested in this, I think, Nick, about bentonite. Hope this is the right email. It is. I'm a winemaker. Obviously, if I'm reading it, it's the right email, Bob.
+
+[58:14] Uh, I'm a winemaker and vineyard manager in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Uh, currently running through your back catalog uh during pruning season. Wisconsin is an unlikely region for grapes, no? But considerable process has been made in grape breeding by Cornell and the University of Minnesota. I have Cornell's old book called The Grapes of Uh New York, which is put out by the uh Cornell Extension, and it has it's the state of the art of uh American grape breeding up till about 1910.
+
+[58:40] Uh, and it's I think the most expensive of all of the fruits of New York series. You can get it on the Google. And I believe you can also get paperbag cookery on the Google books if you want to look at it. Um these new cultivars come unique challenges such as high protein content, which brings me to my question. We have to use a lot more bentonite for these new cultivars than the old vinifera to make a wine that's heat stable.
+
+[59:00] I'm not afraid of uh aroma stripping, but the amounts we need result in a lot of loss of product. A quick aside on bentonite, I think its aroma stripping ability is greatly exaggerated. The only concrete science I've seen on it is a study that shows up that bentonite strips, chocolate and cherry aromas, but given that we only use it on white wine, this is not an issue. Um in the past, you've commented on fast freezing and slow thawing, or maybe slow uh freezing and fast thawing, or some mixture, and how uh it imparts the proteins in an egg yolk and how to avoid rubbery frozen egg. I suspect freezing and thawing the grapes in the right manner might denature the proteins and result in lower bentonite usage.
+
+[59:34] Why? Because every time I make ice wine, the wine is always protein stable without new treatment. That said, ice wine has a lot of things going on, it could be something else. I would still like to try it on a small scale to test the theory. How do you think I can most effectively denature the proteins and grapes by freezing and thawing?
+
+[59:47] Fast, slow, thanks. In general, it's very interesting. So with egg yolks, what's happening is as you freeze something, the water, you get less and less water, the proteins become more and more concentrated. So as their concentration goes up, sometimes they can uh partially denature. Uh and that's what's happening in egg yolks, uh, so that when you freeze an egg yolk and then thaw it out, uh, it never turns liquid again because the proteins have kind of coagulate, I guess is the wrong word, but they've kind of denatured a little bit, come together.
+
+[1:00:19] Uh if you fast thaw a fast freeze an egg yolk, then it does not do that because uh it freezes so quickly that uh it just freezes in its conformation and then goes back. So if you drop an egg yolk into liquid nitrogen, freeze it solid, thaw it back, it thaws liquid again. So the answer here is you're looking to damage things, and if you want to damage something, there's no better way to damage it than to freeze it slowly. So I would say uh freeze it slowly on bentonite stripping. The amounts you're using in wine are far less, I think, than the stripping that happens in cocktail realm.
+
+[1:00:54] I've had people who have used bentonite. Have you ever had people use bentonite? I've never used it myself. Uh people stir like a load of bentonite into things uh to to get out flock and other things in cocktails, and in large quantities it does strip. By the way, I'll say this: any clarification technique strips flavor.
+
+[1:01:15] Because it wasn't clear and now it is, meaning you've taken something out, odds are that thing has flavor. Certain clarification techniques are more damaging of flavor, even of soluble things. I will say egg white strips flavor a lot. It used in high quantities. Let me smell gelatin strips relatively a lot.
+
+[1:01:29] Agar a little bit less. Wine, the reason we use wine finding agents, uh Kiesel Sol, which is suspended silica, and chitasan, which is um, you know, uh from shrimp shells or fungal, you can get it. The reason I use those is I find that they're the most gentle ones that you can use uh from a flavor standpoint to get the results I want. I will say I use the minimum amount to try to get the results I need just because I don't really want to strip any more flavor than I than I need to. Sometimes I strip on purpose.
+
+[1:02:03] In fact, there's a section of my book on purposely stripping flavors out. But um casein's another thing that strips flavors out like a demon. Um that said, I will just give you a tip. For those of you that have spinzalls, which is our centrifuge out there, at the bar, uh unbeknownst to me. Typically, I use two milliliters per liter of Kesel Sol, which is suspended silica, and then two of kitasan, and then two of the Kesel Sol again.
+
+[1:02:28] Uh the bar has unbeknownst to me switch to using four all the time, which is the amount of the enzyme that I use. And I can't tell, I haven't done a side-by-side, but I can't tell any extra flavor stripping, and it does tend to make the product uh more bulletproof on clarity. So if you want to move up to four, move up to four. Uh Nick, thanks so much for coming on. Uh go out, try Heple Gin available in New York.
+
+[1:02:54] What are your markets here in here? We're in New York states. I think we're in four states on the eastern seaboard. What about over in the west? Nothing in the west at the moment.
+
+[1:03:02] No calories. I think in California you can buy it via or as in New York or something like that. There is a way of getting it to California. Alright, we'll give it a try. Uh, it's the only gin that you're gonna have that has uh supercritical CO2, vacuum, and classic, uh classic uh pot distillation in it.
+
+[1:03:18] And uh wait, but no uh you're not doing any no wait, you said pot? No column, huh? No, it's not column. No, no column. Pot distillation.
+
+[1:03:27] You hear that? So then uh it's all three mixed together because he's trying to get the results that he wants to get, and it's a long line of Nick trying to of working real hard to try to get the flavor results he wants to get. Two years to get the recipe right. There you go. And I think it's right now, touch wood.
+
+[1:03:42] You know what? That's another thing. If you came up with a gin yesterday, you're not done. Keep working. Keep working at it, yeah.
+
+[1:03:48] Cooking issues. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:04:12] Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[1:04:39] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Tabbered In, New American Cuisine in one of Washington, DC's oldest hotels, located in DuPont Circle. For more information, visit Tabardn.com. This is Dave Arnold, host of Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. I've been a part of the HRN community for nine years. Nine years.
+
+[0:24] Each week I record my show in the HRN studio made from two recycled shipping containers because I'm excited to bring you, our listeners, the most important stories from the world of food. Well, not really food, more like, you know, whatever Nastas and I happen to be doing at that moment. You know, technical issues. All of us here at HRN make food radio because we love it. This year HRN is celebrating its tenth anniversary, but we need your support to keep food radio going strong for the next decade.
+
+[0:51] Join the HRN community today by becoming a member. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate right now. You can even show some love for my show by selecting Cooking Issues in the designation drop-down menu. And if you hate me but love Nastasia, still do that. Select Cooking Issues in the designation drop-down menu.
+
+[1:09] Thanks for listening to HRN. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday. Like a drowned freaking rat. From Rubina Spirit Sorry!
+
+[1:33] Days in his undershirt. Well, thank God I always wear an undershirt. Thank God. This guy wears an undershirt 100% of the time. And I have the SPD blanket on me.
+
+[1:44] Uh well, you want to explain what that is? It's this old dirty blanket in the studio that's been here forever. That Nastasia has nicknamed the STD blanket. And she's so desperate that she's actually touching it. So what happened was is that when we left the house, the sun was shining.
+
+[2:00] Right? I it was for me anyway. I was like, oh, it's not gonna rain. Yeah. So I wore my shoes that have holes in the in the in the in the bottoms because I'm walking on dry land.
+
+[2:08] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. What am I gonna throw away a shoe just because it's got a hole in the bottom like it? Buy new shoes.
+
+[2:12] Yeah, right. Not sunny day shoes. Right, Matt. Matt in the booth. You have sunny day shoes, they have holes in the bottom.
+
+[2:17] Absolutely have sunny day shoes. And now today I'm wearing my rain boots because I, you know, looked. I didn't look. I didn't look. Just goes to show people the internet is there for a reason.
+
+[2:25] Look up the weather. Uh okay. Get out of the subway. I'm carrying with me the classic in the field we're gonna talk about today. It's in my hand, because I was refreshing myself on some of its points.
+
+[2:35] Starts pouring. So I I don't have time to like cover myself. I just shove the book under my under my vestments and then walk here. And uh, Matt, how did I look when I showed up? You look like you walked out of a swimming pool into the studio.
+
+[2:48] That's true. I took my overshirt off and wrung it out, and copious fluids came out of it as though as though it had been in a pool. So anyway. Okay. We're gonna be at Whoa whoa.
+
+[3:01] Why don't you start with next week? We're not gonna be here doing curking. Nastasi, like it's like you think that they're part of our lives or something, like they know what's going on. Next week we won't be here. Where are we gonna be?
+
+[3:11] Detroit. We're gonna be in Detroit. We're gonna we have two things we're doing. One, we're judging a contest, which is oh, by the way, I hate contests. I hate contest.
+
+[3:20] But apparently this is a good natured contest, so it's so it's okay. I don't like contests. Okay. Wait, you were a judge on nailed it. I watched it with my own eyes.
+
+[3:27] Uh you were also on Time Machine Chef. Uh, never got aired, never happened. So, like the but the the issue is is in nailed it, the people very specifically said that they were gonna be good natured about it, and they flew me first class to LA. We're going first class to Detroit. Okay, but anyway, I they stood up to their promise.
+
+[3:46] It's a good natured show. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Um But I don't know, something about contest. Maybe it's because like, you know, I'm not built to win contests.
+
+[3:55] Like I never like I never do what it takes to win a contest. It's never the thing that I want to do that wins a contest. You know what I mean? So I was like, you know, that's when I, you know, I I told the people at the bar, lose with style. You never won like a science fair when you were a child?
+
+[4:09] No. A science fair winner. No, I mean, I did some stuff that's totally should have won. Like my giant parabolic mirror array from like 1983 when I was like 12, that could light like anybody and anything on fire, like definitely kicked the crap out of anything else. It was all made with this is pre-internet.
+
+[4:30] I just called every glass and mirror company in the yellow pages, and uh, you know, because I was, you know, talking, I was like, well, you can build a little set of mirrors and you can like make a little bit of I was like, little, little, little, little. So I I built a four by four foot mirror array, like parabolic mirror array with um uh two by fours for the angles, and my dad helped me like figure out um, you know, the the angles to make sure it was a parabola. And I found a company that was like, you wanna buy you wanna buy like a couple hundred four by four inch mirrors. Do they need to look nice? And I was like, nah.
+
+[5:08] And they gave me an amazing rate. This is back when you had to look up like mirroring glass and the yellow pages, and so I called like every place that was, you know, within driving distance, and made a giant solar thing that concentrated the sun into a four by four inch window of death. And then you put anything in that, you light it on fire. You're like a tiny little bond villain. Yeah.
+
+[5:30] Yeah. But you know what that doesn't do? Win. That doesn't win. Because they're like, what?
+
+[5:29] Yeah, but you can light the judges on fire. That's gotta count for something. No, no, the problem with that kind of thing is they have to kind of stay in one place. You know what I mean? It's like it's like you're like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's cloudy.
+
+[5:44] Come back when the sun's out. And you're like, I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get you. And then you like you aim it exactly at the angle of the sun, and then you're like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Put your hand right here.
+
+[5:53] No, not there, closer. No, no, no, further away. No, at the focus point. And they're like, F this. F this.
+
+[5:59] I'm not gonna get lit on fire by this little snot-nosed kid. Okay, wait, so we just threw that away. We just threw that away like a year ago. My stepfather was like, get this thing out of the house. He doesn't think he needs the space.
+
+[6:10] What's he gonna do with it? Dave. What? Detroit. I don't know.
+
+[6:13] You set it up. Cocktail competition on Okay, that's on the Tuesday. But it's not a Monday. No, the competition's on the Tuesday. Okay.
+
+[6:21] And it's not uh it's not done by cocktail people, it's chefs who are doing ingredient-driven cocktails. That's the that's the of it. You know what I mean? That's that what makes it different. Yeah.
+
+[6:31] And and apparently, I'm told good natured. Okay. And then we're making cocktails. We're making cocktails on the Monday. But here's a little known fact to people who aren't from Detroit.
+
+[6:41] Monday is this Monday, coming Monday, for those of you in the Detroit Greater uh metro area, is apparently like the day of the year for fireworks show in Detroit. Not the fourth, it's like next Monday. So we love fireworks. I love fireworks, but guess what we're not gonna see? Fireworks.
+
+[6:58] Fireworks, because we're gonna be inside during the fireworks show. Apparently, the entire city is one big fireworks show, right? And nobody goes out on that night. And that's the So please come. So please come.
+
+[7:09] If you're in the Detroit metro area and for some reason, I don't know, you hate fireworks. I mean, there are some people out there who hate fireworks. Talk about our fireworks. Oh my god. So this weekend, uh, since, you know, uh Hey, can you cough closer to the mic next time?
+
+[7:23] Jeez. Like this. Face here. Yeah, then go. Anyway.
+
+[7:28] So uh I'm you know, I'm getting rid of my place in Connecticut. By the way, shout out. I went to uh Grano Arsen, Chocogano's restaurant. Uh we're packing the place up, and I realized I had somewhere in the high hundreds of dollars of illegal fireworks from Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, by the way, of all the states around uh New York, there's two the two closest illegal fireworks states, well, they're they're legal there are New Hampshire and Pennsylvania. But in New Hampshire, you can get nice big shells, right?
+
+[7:55] But no rockets. You can't buy rockets in New Hampshire. So if you really want the rockets, you gotta go to Pennsylvania. Who doesn't want the rockets? The rockets are fun.
+
+[8:05] So anyway, so on Father's Day on Sunday, Booker doesn't care, so he went home. My wife Jen definitely didn't want any part of this. So she went home with Booker. Dak stayed with me, Nastasia, Jack and Bobby from the bar came and we lit off like what was that, like a like a half hour of 40 minutes of like continuous boom boom boom boom. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:26] It was so great. Yeah. And the the the awesome thing about where my house is, you know, it is that uh there's really no way for the cops to find it. There's no way for them to know where it is. It just looks like it's coming from the middle of like this like ridgeline.
+
+[8:41] There's no way for them to see where it's coming from. Awesome. And you timed it to some music. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you got some Nastasia wanted uh dad rock.
+
+[8:49] So what was the song we did? No, you the your greatest was the Boston. Oh, Boston 4 play a long time. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good song.
+
+[8:56] It's a good tune. Uh and but then you wanted to play Cats in the Cradle which is uh you did you play that yeah I like how Nastasia always uh tries to foist stuff off on other people um and my son was right there I was doing something with my son so it's clearly not applicable Yeah anyways uh Tandoor's already gone out of that house uh my mom has it and she's already used it nice so you know kudos to my mom my stepfather uh Gerard he hates anything he doesn't understand so he's like this ta what is this tail what is this it's gonna burn through the deck it's gonna burn through the deck and I'm like Groard listen listen it only burns through like 20% of the decks and he's like what what what like you know and specifically the you know I forget where I got it was like 100 Tandoor in Jersey and like Summit New Jersey specifically the guy designed this Tandoor for decks it's on wheels story of when you called for a Tandoor No I will not I will not I will not it's not come to the bar if you want to hear the story yeah come to the bar if you want to hear the story of of buying a Tandoor and nah whatever I don't know how often does someone show up at the bar uh requesting one of these stories it has happened more than thrice cool yeah uh call in your questions to 7184972128 that's 71 uh uh 7184972128 by the way so uh to continue a theme of the past couple of weeks and on fire and fire in general uh don't read anything but do you have any idea don't don't read it Nastasia but do you have any idea what this is uh no okay moon rock. No, no. You know how much moon rocks cost? What are you?
+
+[10:33] Crack? Moon rocks are expensive. You don't care because you don't care about those things. No. I would like a moon rock.
+
+[10:38] Yeah, but you wouldn't be willing to pay what it costs it cost I mean, a lot. I mean, like they only have so much of it that they brought back. This is also a rock that there's only so much of. So uh because we've been talking about nuclear warfare. Are they more than diamonds?
+
+[10:52] I would guess. Moonrock? I mean, it should be. You have to go 250,000 miles to get it, and then 250,000 miles away. Yeah.
+
+[11:02] I mean, it doesn't really sparkle. Who cares? Uh, you know what? I I like the way you think, but most people uh they uh they like the sparkle. You know?
+
+[11:10] You know, most people aren't aren't you? Hey Matt, do you have some sort of a knife end or scissors? Yes. You have a key right there. I want to cut it cleanly.
+
+[11:21] I don't care what it looks like when it's done. Not mine. So uh this is also a rock that there's only a fixed amount of in in the world. It's called Trinitite. And what happened in New Mexico when they set off the very first nuclear weapon in the uh desert uh outside there, I get where was it, Alamogordo or wherever the hell they were.
+
+[11:40] Uh at the Trinity site, it turned the desert to glass, and that is a piece of glass from the very first atomic bomb that was ever detonated, called Trinitite. And people used to go out in the desert and collect it, and then in the 50s uh the government got pissed off with people going out there, so they just bulldozed it all over and saved a couple 55 gallon drums. So this is some of it. And this reminds me of a cooking thing. So Nastasi and I are gonna do some uh ridiculous cooking things over the summer.
+
+[12:08] Uh one of which is the chicken gun, which we've spoken about. Nastasi, just make up a date, we're gonna do it. You tell me. Why would I tell you next week? It takes longer than that.
+
+[12:17] Post a date in the future, such that we can set up what it needs to do, and then we have to stick to it because otherwise it's never gonna happen. Okay. We're gonna do resistive cooking. I want it to do it on well, we'll talk about it later. This is a uh these are all kind of post-war cooking things that never happen.
+
+[12:31] But I've been a long time, many, many years, thinking about kind of uh atomic level sear, right? Atomic level sear. So for any of you who have ever watched um nuclear test videos, which if you haven't, please you know go out and watch them, they're amazing. But you'll see when they put these test buildings out in the in the desert and they drop the uh the bombs. If you look at them, you'll see the initial flash, poof, and then you'll see like smoke just rising off the building and then stopping.
+
+[13:03] Because the thermal energy that was delivered to it was enough to char the outside instantly, but because it wasn't long enough, uh it didn't actually catch on fire. Now, I did some research and the numbers for that classic picture that you can see of that wooden-sided house going poof and smoking but not catching on fire, was uh 700 watts per square inch for about a second. So that is a high number. That is a high number of thermal energy to deliver to something, but it's achievable. We could literally test searing at nuclear level stuff.
+
+[13:39] Wouldn't you like to do that sometime, Nastasi? Like do and see how many how many nuclear nuclear pulses it takes to get a nice sear on the outside? Maybe it tastes terrible. We all know that shooting a laser at something makes it taste terrible, at least according to Harold McGee. But anyway, here's a little piece of history to remind you of uh nuclear searing.
+
+[13:55] There's the very first nuclear-seared search. Are you gonna open it? I mean, uh why? It's all sealed. It's nice.
+
+[14:00] It says caution radioactive material tape all around it. I mean, I'm not radioactive in the way that like I'm radioactive, not radioactive. I mean, like, it was a long time ago, not a lot of induced radioactivity in the glass. Why are you worried about it? A little bit.
+
+[14:13] It's gonna hurt my mock then. Uh explain what a mock is. No. No. She's like, she busted out and then she's like, no.
+
+[14:22] This goes back to Nastasia's uh mom, who's this is a term that people actually would not understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she uses other Russian terms that you might understand, such as Titsky. What's that one? Uh all right.
+
+[14:47] She's like, what? She can't understand what I'm saying about her. It's in Russian. What? Uh yeah.
+
+[14:58] Okay. So uh Anthony Din writes in. Uh hey, hey crew. Uh Anthony from Seattle writing in. I purchased a control freak, which is the very fancy uh induction hob that uh was uh made by Breville in uh conjunction with uh uh Polyscience, our friend uh our friends at PolyScience.
+
+[15:17] Uh I purchased a control freak and have been running into some issues where the unit will frequently trip the circuit in my kitchen, even if I have nothing else plugged in. Talking to the building manager, it's a standard 20 amp circuit, set the trip at 80% load. Although, why would you set something to trip at 80% load? 20 amps is 20 freaking amps. Am I wrong about this, Nastasia?
+
+[15:34] No. If it says 20 amps, how many amps should I get? 20. Should I get 80% of 20? No.
+
+[15:40] No. No. How about you set it to trip at 101% load? Jerks, jerks. But anyway, you need far less than that.
+
+[15:47] You need a 15 amp circuit, works fine. I plug it into 15 amp circuits all the time. Uh given that the control freak runs at uh 1800 watts, it doesn't seem like it should be a high enough load to trip the circuit. You are correct. Um I've also run into this tripping issue running circulators with much lower power requirements, 900 and 1100 watts, respectively.
+
+[16:05] The building manager seems to think this is due to the AFCI breakers that the apartment is wired with. Apparently, they're prone to tripping when appliances cycle their heating element. If this is the case, do you have suggestions about what kind of outlets breakers? I should be looking for in a new apartment. Um then the chef steps says you should use GFCI.
+
+[16:23] Okay, here's the thing. Um I've never used an AFCI, which is an arc fault interrupter, um, which is designed to trip if if it senses what's called uh arcing. But even like crappy GFIs, GCFIs can cause problems if there's uh internal problem with the GCFI. Also, certain older pieces of equipment uh were like for instance, say we used to have one of the large model uh Hobart mixers, you know, like you know what I mean, the large model ones at the school that was equipped with electronics that would blow in any GFI, right? So even a good modern GFI, because they were brand new, it would trip in.
+
+[16:59] So we had to go find non GFI circuits to plug this into. And the issue is is that depending on the electronics that are involved, this the it puts some noise back on the power line. And especially if you think about the way that an induction works with the it's like it's like hunting and hunting for frequencies and doing all this stuff, it's doing a lot of switching, it's putting some power back onto again right into the microphone, Nastasia. Listen, it's like you know when you're talking to someone and you turn your head to cough, imagine that the microphone is somebody. What do you think, Matt?
+
+[17:30] Uh, I you know, I'm just happy when Nastasia's on mic. Thanks. Wow. Thanks. That's like such a backhand of comment.
+
+[17:37] Why are you thanking them for that? Oh, did you see my sharman bear? No, no, no. Let's finish this story first. Oh my god.
+
+[17:44] She's trying to get me off with the shaman bear. I'm getting you off with the sharmin bear. No, I mean off topic. Jeez. So uh poll quote.
+
+[17:53] So uh please people, please people. It's hard enough for me to stay on message, please. So, uh where the heck was I? So, so it puts some noise back on the power line, and older equipment, a lot of older electronic equipment can chip trip even regular GFIs because it puts noise back it doesn't like AFCIs. It's probably since they're not as common, it's probably not designed for that, it's probably tripping it.
+
+[18:18] Even in your current apartment, go buy one. They're like, you can get a good GFI and GCFI for like $15 at a big box home improvement store. Uh wire it, and it should work fine. Mine plug into them all day, all night, and they work fine. Ah, see?
+
+[18:33] See? See, although although, people, I'm not singling Nastasia out. I know people say I'm mean, but Nastasia, it's in the food business, you don't cough into your hand. Where do you cough? Into your elbow crease.
+
+[18:49] Onto the food? Yeah, yeah, elbow crease. I've been still coughing by the way, because of the fiberglass I know. It's not, Dave. We're sick.
+
+[18:55] I'm not sick. What am I sick from? I don't get sick. We're sick. I'm not sick.
+
+[18:59] For two weeks sick? Yeah. No. Okay, Charmin Bear. I don't have no idea you're talking about.
+
+[19:04] I couldn't look at my clothes because it was raining. There was we do have a caller, by the way. Alright, caller, you're on the air, and then we'll get to the sharmin bear. Hey Dave. How are you doing?
+
+[19:13] Uh I've got a running issue for you. Alright. Uh running like running like like jogging? Yeah, yeah, jogging, sure. Yeah.
+
+[19:21] So ever every now and then in the summer, my friends and I will hold a beer mile event. Have you heard of a beer mile? I have not. Is it like the Sentry Club where you have to drink a hundred shots of beer in an hour? Uh yeah, it's similar in spirit, I guess.
+
+[19:34] Uh so the basic rules of a beer mile are you set up around a quarter mile track, and before each quarter mile of which you run for, you chug a beer. Chug or shotgun? So uh so you can't shotgun, that's part of the rules. No wide mouth cans, no vortex bottles, none of that nonsense. Just uh, you know, typical twelve ounce minimum beer, uh five percent alcohol by volume or greater.
+
+[20:00] Or greater. Um greater. Uh you have a little control. Right. I bet you know, I would have to say for a performance standpoint you'd want to go with minimum.
+
+[20:08] Although you could probably jog a mile before you'd feel the alcohol, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, so the trick, the the reason I'm calling is because after you drink that first beer, you run that first quarter mile, things start sloshing around in your stomach, foam starts precipitating, uh pressure starts building, and it gets really painful. It's not easy. And it's not easy to burp up that foam, you know, the gases are trapped in the foam.
+
+[20:33] So I wanna I'm wondering if there's a uh solution. You know, I have control over the type of beer, uh the temperature of the beer, I can, you know, do any sort of tapping beforehand on a can. Um, but I need to eliminate as much trapped gases uh both from in the beer and in my stomach as I can. And but I guess it's to be freshly opened. It has to be freshly opened.
+
+[20:56] Yeah, you yeah, you can't you can't doctor it beforehand, so you have to open it uh right before you run the lab. Well, what's the lowest carbonation beer that exists? Uh so the carbonation? Yeah, what's the lowest carbonated beer in the world? Uh well that that's a good question.
+
+[21:14] That's I mean it'd be some kind of material stout. Yeah, we said, well, yeah, but we don't it'd be some kind of British thing, right? You want to go and you want to make sure it doesn't have one of those little like enfaminators at the bottom. Uh and you're not allowed to like pour sand into it, right? No, but I do have control over the contents of my stomach.
+
+[21:37] Uh I'm not above uh PEDs, you know, if there's anything I can take before or during the race to disrupt the foam. I mean, once the thing's there, it's there is the problem. I mean, what what has the lowest carbonation but also doesn't produce a nice head? Like you want basically you want like an incredibly thin, like low-bodied beer. You want the lowest body beer that exists.
+
+[22:01] You just want it to be lower carbonation than than you'd expect. There's gotta be some terribly produced beer of low carbonation with almost no body. Like you want like the most garbage, thin bodied, like like almost no barley in it. You know what I mean? Like you want like Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:20] Yeah. Uh but I'm going the other way. I think you guys should make this race more challenging. And what you have to do is you have to eat a soft surf ice cream cone and then pound the beer. Oh that would have hurt so much.
+
+[22:34] Oh my god. I've been pushing for an eggnog 5k, but nobody's taking me up on that. Oh my god. Oh my god. Are you allowed to throw up?
+
+[22:45] Uh so you uh you have a penalty lap if you can't keep the beer down. So I'm not recommending this, but I wonder if there's any way you could like bypass like open yourself up so that you're like one long constant burp. Like but no, you can't, because then you choke to death. You would choke to death. You don't want to choke to death.
+
+[22:59] Presumably. Uh yeah, that'd slow you down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a penalty lab for that. Penalty lab for choking to death.
+
+[23:12] Yeah. I mean like obviously if you modify it, there was a I'm not proud of it, but I was a member of the drinking team uh uh at So again, into the mic. Again. Uh with um at Yale with Squee and uh Uh no, Squee didn't go there. Uh please don't get me started with these people.
+
+[23:34] Uh anyway. So uh what we used to you cheat by using stale beer, like stale old beer. You know what I mean? Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I mean are you above cheating?
+
+[23:45] Because we could put a we could put a micro you could put a micro you could put a micro hole in the can that no one will see. And then just let it just let it gas off. Just let it gas off for like a week and a half. And then like, you know. That's cheating.
+
+[23:57] I can't endorse cheating on the show. Wait, how would you do that? Well, there's there's only so much honor in the beer mile. That's right. Although if you look the at the records, they're pretty they're pretty out of this world.
+
+[24:09] I think four minutes thirty seconds, something like that for like the real serious folks. Yeah. That's including drinking the beer. Right, right. So do you do you drink then run or run drink?
+
+[24:23] In other words, do you end with a beer or end with a lap? You start with a beer, end with the lap. And you have to dr you can't drink it while you're running, you drink it before the lap. So it's like the pistol goes off and then you hear all the clicks? Yep.
+
+[24:36] Okay. How many competitors are there? This is a sport I didn't know existed. Well, you know, we it's kind of impromptu for us when we do it, maybe like between five and ten. Have you can and one of these five or ten people that you can run a four and a half minute and drink four beers.
+
+[24:53] Oh no no no that's that's national. Yeah I'm I'm I'm nowhere near that. Alright well you know what uh you should also start practicing your javelin catching which is the sport that I want to see. Javelin catching. No I think you can get this done.
+
+[25:06] I think it's just a research problem uh of of like just research on like one of those rate beer rating sites for like oh my god no carbonation oh my god this has no body you know either of those things will win it'll if the beer has no body you'll be able to burp up you know it's like all right you're halfway to this if the beer is like like a corona you can burp up a corona right because it has no body right sure because it's yeah right so that's one way to go but imagine if someone made something with as little body as a corona that also had very low carbonation. Then you're winning or something yeah and clearly don't eat any dairy beforehand. Just don't don't even dairy temperature do I want this room temp? Uh look I don't really I wouldn't go room temp just because again not proud of this have shotgunned many beers but if you uh with on certain occasions uh you can get like these like rapid rapid nucleation things happening in your throat when you're drinking really quickly and that itself can be quite painful. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:13] Like when you're drinking very very quickly. Yeah. And so um you know that can be that can be problematic. And so you don't. I mean, you want to get we used to drink, although we drink warm flat beer.
+
+[26:25] I would say that warm, just open beer is probably more prone to that than beer that's a little bit colder, which is gonna make it down before it does that. Are you allowed to squeeze the contents of the can into your mouth? That's another way to go. Uh they recommend against it, but uh you know, we're a little more informal, so I should probably yeah. Although it might make the last couple of dribbles.
+
+[26:47] I mean, I don't know how they test the weight of the can afterwards to make sure that you don't cheat. It's a classic shotgunning trick that when you are finished, you crush the can and throw it, and you lose like you know, half an ounce or so from the toss. It's undetectable. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[27:03] Classic. The the classic trick is the you put the can over your head upside down and how the heck do you do that? You got you got running to do. What is this? What do you got?
+
+[27:12] Time to sit around with a can over your head? You have to hire some sort of like you have like in a duel, some sort of second to put the can over their head. Anyway. Yeah, yeah. All right, let us know.
+
+[27:22] Let us know how it works. All right, thanks. All right. Oh, by the way, are you uh are you better winning on the be drinking side or the running side? It seems to me are you you're probably a specialist in one.
+
+[27:31] You know what I'm saying? Like a Yeah, well, it it definitely is advantageous to to be really good at one rather than you know a jack of all trades. But uh running for me. I have trouble burping. Yeah, are you married?
+
+[27:49] Uh no. Uh that's nostalgia for you. All right, all right, man. Good luck with this. Let us know.
+
+[27:57] Uh Elvin wrote in about peanut butter steak. Hello, uh Nastasia, Dave, Dave, Matt, Jackie, etc. Anyone else in the room. Uh, long time uh first time uh uh writing in. Uh love the bar, accidentally became a not quite regular, even though I don't even live in the same state, city, or coast.
+
+[28:17] I'm curious if anyone has asked it, uh what? Why are you pointing scissors, please? What do you why? What do you need to cut? Don't cut anything on my book.
+
+[28:24] And I'm in the middle of reading the person's question. She's like, they can't hear that I'm asking you for the scissors. Anyway. Um, I'm curious if anyone has asked about this meme that seems to be exploding on the Sous vide subreddit. Basically, people spread peanut butter on a steak, low temp it, and wipe it off before searing.
+
+[28:45] Apparently, the resulting product tastes really good and not peanut butter at all, but I feel like I should try to reach a theoretical explanation before trying it myself. That's a mistake. Just try it. And then theory all theories are garbage, by the way, including the one that I'm gonna give you. By the way, Nastasi, you couldn't have just reached over and gotten the scissors.
+
+[29:02] No. Okay. Uh thus far I haven't been able to test it, but I'm really curious. Uh P.S. I annoyed Jack and Bobby at the bar last week with this very question to try to avoid sending it in uh to no avail.
+
+[29:15] Pass on my thanks for tolerating my low-quality individuality as well. Thanks, Elvin. So uh I watched a video by someone who claims to have thought of this idea uh on his own. I forget the guy's name. Um, but the theory was that he likes peanut on beef in Vietnamese cuisine, so he was gonna wipe peanut butter on the steak and souve it, and everyone on the video went like, you know, crazy for how good it was.
+
+[29:39] Now, uh I have not tried it, but again, theory, all theories are garbage. However, what is peanut butter made of? If you ask me to think about it and not having tried it, uh you wipe peanut butter on, uh, you cook it, you wipe the peanut butter off and sear it. Now, there are a couple of things I would like to know. Everyone in the video said that it was one more tender, two more beefy, and you know, three just delicious.
+
+[30:03] As for more tender, I don't really understand why there's not a lot of tenderizing agents in peanut butter that I'm aware of. It's salt, sugar, oil, and peanut solids, right? That's what you got in peanut butter. You got your salt, your sugar, your oil, and your peanut solids. So the this could be one of those cases of, you know, uh like I like to put mayonnaise on things before I'm gonna sear them.
+
+[30:27] It could be a cake because mayonnaise is fundamentally is solid oil, uh it's solidified oil plus egg yolk. So you know the egg yolk is good for browning and oil is obviously good for you know for searing. So this could be a case of like similar to mayonnaise but even thicker with the addition of the sugar which in low concentrations is not gonna be perceived as burn but is going to be perceived more as a searing thing like a small amount of sugar um you know which could uh depending on the sugar involved probably also uh help for my yard so there's that uh and the oil is gonna help with uh you know getting good contact between uh the pan you're searing on or if you're gonna sear on and the meat itself so uh that's one explanation uh two I'd like to know whether or not I mean I don't know if there's not that much salt in peanut butter so I doubt you're gonna get any uh you know salt pre-salting something is obviously a long long discussion that I can't get into right now but uh I would like to know whether there's more drip loss or more drip in a bag uh with a peanut buttered steak versus a not peanut buttered steak. So when you wipe that peanut butter on the steak, you're in essence wiping another sealant over the meat exactly across on the ends of the fibers where you're gonna get a lot of uh liquid coming out. So it's conceivable that you are inconceivable.
+
+[31:48] It's it's conceivable that you are sealing some of the moisture in as well, and that could be the extra juiciness. I don't know. I'd have to run some taste tests. Uh also things like uh peanuts just taste good, and so maybe seared peanut uh on the outside also uh increases beefy uh taste. Now, for those of you that say, well, there's no penetration of the peanut butter, so it can't really affect the taste of the meat, you're definitely wrong about uh one half of what you said.
+
+[32:14] It's probably true that there's little to zero, little to no penetration of the actual product onto the inside of the meat. But just saying that things like spices, marinades, etc. are only on the outside of the meat, therefore they don't add a lot of flavor, is incorrect because a lot of the flavor of cooked meat is from the outside, where those kind of interactions can take place. And so they're quite important, even if you don't have a lot of penetration, uh, which is why if you cook a large, large hunk of meat and then just uh like large, and then cut it directly in half and then cut a small cube out of the center, relatively flavorless, no matter what you do to it. Uh so I I'd say give it a try.
+
+[32:52] I'm gonna try it. I hadn't thought about it, but now that you know I'm theoretically writing my book on the subject, I will uh I will have to test it out and then give uh give props to the uh inventor if I can determine exactly who it is. Charmin Bear. All right, uh, what is this about Charmin Bear? He was in Union Square riding a toilet, animatronic giant bear.
+
+[33:13] It's not an animatronic, it's a human. No. Animatronic. It's not an animatronic, it's a human being. No, it's animatronic.
+
+[33:19] It was moving like an animatronic. It's there's no such thing as a freewheeling animatronic bear. It's a human being on a pried jazzy. It's not remote control. It's a person.
+
+[33:32] Nastasia, but like, how would you think that, like, why like it would be so much easier to just hire one of those filthy idiots outside of Times Square? Yeah, but look, watch, watch. I am moving like an animatronic, but am still relatively a human being. You guys built an animatronic, Dave. See?
+
+[33:54] See? Where's my red book that you took? Are we gonna go to the thrift store after this? People don't know what you're talking about. We're building the speciality.
+
+[34:01] This is why this is why people say I'm mean, but like, after all these years, Matt, what episode number is this? Like a thousand. I I forget. Right. All these years, right?
+
+[34:12] You have to preface anything you say to the listeners. We're making special for our PR person. Alright, what? We can't say it because she might be. Then why are you saying it on air?
+
+[34:23] But it's but look out for it. But then why are you saying so you're saying tune in next time? Yeah. And we will discuss the special. Well, we are we're making boondoggles for her.
+
+[34:33] Yeah. But we're we're doing something even more special. And we already talked about boondoggles on the air, right? The little little plasticky thing. What's our current boondoggle song?
+
+[34:43] I think it's the Sade one. Boondoglitter. That one? The Grand Canyon in winter. Feeling better.
+
+[34:55] And fell down the rocket cliffs. The pointed clips. This episode is brought to you by Tabard Inn. Tabard Inn. Washington, DC's quintessential hotel, is located on a quiet tree-lined street, just five blocks from the White House.
+
+[35:11] Vibrant yet unassuming, the tabard is comprised of 40 sleeping rooms, each unique in character and design. Feast on an eclectic American cuisine in their acclaimed restaurant. Or enjoy a cocktail and listen to live jazz in one of their cozy Victorian seating areas. Mingle with travelers from around the world who find the tabard the only place to stay when taking their travels to Washington. For more information, visit tabardin.com.
+
+[35:40] So if there are no more callers on the air, uh well, you have a question from the chat actually. What do you got for me? Robert asks if Dave has any thoughts on the new ISI nitro siphon and any uses for it beyond coffee and beer. He says, sort of rude, in my opinion, for ISI to make the nitro system incompatible with our current ISI siphons. So on the fence about it.
+
+[36:03] Yeah, okay. Uh my phone is stasia, please. I need to look up a picture. Uh the for those of you that don't know, uh the new nitro, which they shouldn't have, I wish they hadn't. Okay.
+
+[36:16] It this is one of those confusing things. The new ISI nitro thing is not nitrous oxide. So the nitro the nitrous that you buy for whipped cream or for rapid infusion, or the CO2 that you buy for seltzer water or whatever else from EC, they are both compatible, seven gram chargers. All you know, they they all of that stuff's compatible back and forth. This new nitro is not nitrus, it is nitro, straight nitrogen.
+
+[36:47] And what it's doing is under pressure, it's putting nitrogen. Nitrogen's not soluble. And so what happens is is you get that it like immediately bubbles and creates that kind of foamy texture that you get from like a widget in a in a in a Guinness, right? So it's not the same gas mixture. Uh and I guess that's why they made it not compatible.
+
+[37:08] I don't know. Like maybe the pressures are higher. I don't know. I I had a conversation with them briefly at the bar because they came to demonstrate it to us. Uh but I mean, honestly, could they have made it compatible?
+
+[37:21] They probably could have made it compatible. But they didn't want you to use one for the other, I guess, so that they they didn't do it. Although that's not a problem for them with CO2 versus nitrous. Look, I don't remember their story about why it wasn't compatible. I'm not gonna say that I I my feeling is is that if I believed that it was a good story, I probably would have uh I probably would have remembered it.
+
+[37:43] So I probably also agree with you that I didn't think it was such a good story as to why they made it incompatible. All right. Now, for this week's episode of Classics in the Field, we have Making Pigeons Pay, which is a classic that first came out in 1949, and is still considered to this day a classic in the field of raising pigeons. Now, uh the for those of you that don't know, Nastasi, you knew that squab was pigeon, right? Yes.
+
+[38:14] All right. But I didn't know that until I was like 30. Yeah, yeah, it's not well, for those, you know, for people who uh, you know, speak other languages, right? Like French, right? Where it's it's more kind of uh apparent.
+
+[38:27] Uh, you know, it's kind of clear. Like we're used to eating squab. In fact, I was at a uh three Michelin star restaurant in France, you know, well over a decade ago. And I don't know what me. Uh yeah, we spent our last time on it.
+
+[38:38] Anyway, we went in there and we were lost. So for those of you that have been to Paris, there's this restaurant. I don't even know if what it's still doing, but Lepre Le Pre Catalan, I think is what it's called. It's it's in the Bois de Bologne, which is this kind of area kind of on the outskirts of Paris, and it's where all the hookers hang out, right? And we we were spending all of our money on the meal, and we had reservation, we don't speak French.
+
+[38:59] And so we got lost. There was no Uber, there was no nothing, like nothing like cell phones, nothing. We got lost, and we were walking around the water w water balloon trying to ask hookers how to get to this restaurant, and we were an hour late to our reservation, and they still sat us and they were you know they were quite nice to us. Uh anyway, the waiter came up, but they weren't really nice to us because they were French. No offense, France, but you know, like your service is not about being friendly to me, it's about you know being kind of more austere.
+
+[39:26] It's a more austere service style. You prefer Italian service style, right, Nastasia, where they're kind of more friendly? Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, you know the austere French service.
+
+[39:33] I do like austere French service though, too. Yeah, anyway, so very austere, not American French, French French. And so the guy comes up and he's giving us, you know, and I have my high school French with me, uh, you know, which is m basically crap. And he's like serving us the pigeon, which, you know, was squab. And I tried to joke to the guy, I was like, hey hey, try serving something called pigeon in New York City, right?
+
+[39:54] Am I right? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Dead eyes, dead eyes.
+
+[39:59] 855,000 for a moon rock. Oh, you Nastasia's still on the moon rock. I like how like how many different people's Wi-Fi did you have to parasitize to get that information? Because those of you that don't know, there's no internet service in this little box that we have. She had to like she had to go buy a satellite phone and download it one bit per year to get the information.
+
+[40:19] How much? 855. I can't see how how much. 30 14 inch. Nope.
+
+[40:24] I'll find it. Like how many carrots is this rock? I don't know. Let me figure it out. This is what you want for your engagement ring?
+
+[40:30] Yes. For those of you, if you plan on trying to get engaged to Nastasia Lopez. Alright. So anyway, so uh squab is uh young pigeon. Now, the thing about Squab that is cool.
+
+[40:47] I want the reason I have this book, Making Pigeons Pay, first published in 1946, and I believe still in print, so right after the war, uh, is I wanted to raise pigeons in Connecticut. I wanted a dove coat because here's another thing. So squabs are the yet flightless pigeons. So the way pigeons grow is that they uh have the, you know, they they lay eggs that pigeons hatch, this little squab hatches. Uh it grows to two-thirds of its adult size before it ever flies.
+
+[41:19] So it is extremely tender. It is never flown, so you don't have to worry about trying to catch it, right? And here's the other great thing adult pigeons are just gonna make another pigeon as soon as that one leaves, so they don't really get attached to it once it's gone. So as long as you take the the squab out of the out of the nest right before it would have flown, you get a super tender bird, never never flown, and the parents don't care, they just make another bird. So it's kind of this genius thing.
+
+[41:48] So what they what what the old time uh folks used to do, they would make something called a dove coat. This is where this is how I come to this because I wanted to build a dove coat, is you would create, and you can still see them in Europe and and some places even in the US, these large kind of almost like large beehive things often, sometimes they're square, with holes in them. And what would happen is the in the inside you could get into it, so the pigeons would poop inside, and the people could go inside, because you could use the poop from a noor. People will go inside to go steal the squab out of the nest before they fly, but there were holes to the outside so that the pigeons could fly out. And this is kind of what I learned from one of the things I learned from this book we're going to talk about.
+
+[42:28] The pigeons would fly out and eat whatever. So the nobility never used to feed their pigeons. In fact, you were not allowed as a common person, you were not allowed. It was illegal to raise pigeons because what the pigeons did was fly out and eat everybody's crops. So it was kind of like another tax that the nobles had on the peasantry because they weren't allowed to kill or raise these pigeons, but they weren't allowed to mess with them when the noble person's pigeons came to eat their crops, go back and raise little birds that the that the nobility got to eat.
+
+[43:01] In addition, this uh the pigeons are good at scrounging even in wintertime for whatever's lying around and creating more meat for you to have uh in the wintertime. So, anyway, so it's a win-win for everybody, but two things the reason I didn't make the dove coat in my house was one, everyone in my family said if you murder those baby pigeons, we won't eat them. So I'm not gonna sit there and eat the baby pigeons all by myself, right? Yep. And two, it's kind of rude to send animals out specifically to eat everybody else's stuff and then fly back and you get to eat.
+
+[43:33] It's it's rude. And in modern kind of pigeon raising, which is how I got to this book, modern pigeon raising, it's considered kind of in poor taste to allow your pigeons to freely roam so that they may ravage the countryside so that you may have a nice meal. So uh, if you look even to this day, like I want to learn about uh pigeons. There are three books, exactly three books that are highly recommended, and they are all by the same guy. Wendell Mitchell Levy.
+
+[44:01] He died in 1976. I'm not gonna talk about the most classic book. The most classic book he wrote is called The Pigeon. And it is like the pigeon Bible in the way that for you, those of you who are book aficionados, Ashley's Book of Knots is like the not Bible. The pigeon to this day is still is still the Bible for all manner of pigeons.
+
+[44:22] So we're talking, we're talking homing pigeons, we're talking eating pigeons, we're talking pigeon uh feathers, we're talking pigeon pigeons, pigeons, pigeons. If you want to know about pigeons, right, The Pigeon by Levy is the book to get. It's quite expensive, but for very little money, you can go online. I have the, I think seventh or eighth printing from the 70s that uh is actually ex ex uh ex Libris from a middle school library where they're trying to get middle school people to read it. If you're actually interested in just raising pigeons and you want the bare rudiment of knowledge to get into pigeon gring, making pigeons pay is not only a great title of a book, but is the book you want to get.
+
+[44:59] Now, a little bit about uh a little bit about our boy uh Wendell Levy. He was uh he was born in the late 1800s and started raising his own pigeons when he was 11. Uh by the time the first world war broke out, he became the first lieutenant in charge of pigeon in the charge of the pigeon section of the USA Signal Corps because not just food pigeons, an expert in homing pigeons. Uh he uh did that from uh 1917 to 1918 during the time the United States was in World War One. Uh he then became the president, founder, and chairman of the Palmetto Pigeon Plant from 1923 until his retirement in 1956, uh, and then became chairman of the board.
+
+[45:40] I mean, how many people on the board of the freaking palmetto pigeon Plant? He was the president. He waited, he was the editor of the question and answer department of the American Pigeon Journal from 1927 until apparently this book was published. I didn't even know that was a journal. And the president of the National Pigeon Association from 1931 to 1933.
+
+[46:05] So anyway, so if you want to know about pigeons, uh he's your guy. It is my hope that through this book, many persons desirous of earning a live a livelihood and undecided as to their future may find in squab raising an answer to their dreams of an independent outdoor existence. Commercial squab raising is a sound business for one with the necessary qualifications. It can also be made a well-paying sideline. So what what's interesting, and my uncle, my crazy well, I have several crazy uncles, but my uncle Rick, uh, there was a lot of schemes for raising animals in the depression and just post-war in the United States, where they were like, hey, you got nothing else to do.
+
+[46:54] You like got a house, you got something. You could raise animals for money and make a lot of money. So I have another book on how to raise rabbits. If you're interested, the interesting thing about that one on Chinchilla Rabbits is the chinchilla rabbit poem. So if you want to hear the chinchilla rabbit poem, we gotta do classics in the field, chinchilla rabbits at some point.
+
+[47:10] Let me know. Let me know. Um, then let me see what else do I have here? Uh Making Pigeons Pay. Do you know what children's character loved pigeons?
+
+[47:23] What? Do you remember? No. Bert. Oh, Bert.
+
+[47:26] Hmm, pigeons. He remembered the pigeons song. He did the pigeon dance. He did the pigeon dance. You know my favorite quote from Bert?
+
+[47:29] Right. I heard that he was created as everyone's idea of a blind date. What? Yeah. Like that.
+
+[47:41] He is what the producer called everyone's idea of a blind date. So when you show up at a blind date, you're like, Bert? And then do you say, no, brother. Oh, brother. The young of pigeons has been recognized as a delicious and nourishing food for many centuries.
+
+[47:57] As far back as we can trace recorded history, we find the young pigeon a preferred article of diet. Among the many peoples of antiquity, an Egyptian bill of fare about 5,000 years old records their use at that time. Among the ancient Hebrews, and this actually is true, their desirability as a choice article of food was well recognized. They called them young pigeons and not squabs. For the word squab has only been used in English speaking countries for the past couple of centuries.
+
+[48:20] Abraham, about 1913 BC, was ordered to use a young pigeon as a sacrifice to God. The subsequent Mosaic laws were very strict in approving various foods, and especially so because of the existing hot weather and consequent quick spoilage. Doves, actually small pigeons, and young pigeons, are the only fowls suitable under the law of Moses to be used as sacrifices. Chickens, ducks, and geese, though raised at that time, were not acceptable. Then in a couple, you know, uh quotes from Leviticus.
+
+[48:45] And it is true that you could sacrifice a lamb if you were rich, but remember when we did the Anthony Bourdain, What Would Jesus Eat for Christmas? Yep. Yeah. Uh turns out that when Jesus was born, uh, Joseph and Mary didn't have a lot of money, so for a sacrifice, they did squab, and we cooked squab in a Palestinian what amounted to a tandoor for Anthony Bourdain when he was doing his Christmas special all those years ago. Remember when we made that fake uh fake tandoor?
+
+[49:10] All right. The ancient Greeks and Romans were also fully cognizant of its superior food value. Uh with their early writings, many references to raising pigeons as food. Socrates discusses their breeding. Aristotle discusses discourses on their characteristics and habits and actually describes five distinct breeds of domestic pigeons.
+
+[49:27] Uh in Rome, about two thousand years ago, pigeons were in a high state of cultivation, and the Roman writers describe pigeon raising for food purposes in great detail. Uh then he goes into a very long, if you're curious, which you should be, uh, if he goes, he goes into very long uh discussion of the intricacies of pigeon raising in um United States, including how to raise them on railroad right-of-ways. Uh, but I want to find what he says about the meat of pigeons. Alright. Um, compared with chicken, probably the most popular of all fowl meats, it is tenderer, has a richer flavor, and does not have the dryness which is often found in chickens unless they are very competently cooked.
+
+[50:03] The meat of very young lamb is quite tender, but not as tender as that of squabs. And young lamb has a flavor that does not appeal to everyone. About the only meat on our national market today that seriously competes with squab is filet mignon. A good filet mignon is always tender and has a flavor that quite justify uh quite justifiably appeals to many. But the size of the squab fits exactly in with a formal serving.
+
+[50:25] No carving at the table is necessary, and individual portions are of the exact same size, which is a real asset. Again, squab meat lends itself to a great variety of cooking, roasted, with or without stuffing, broiled, fried, smothered, in fact, any way that the most enterprising cook may desire. See recipes on page 253. Yes, he teaches you how to raise them, how to buy them, how to breathe them, how to kill them, how to skin them, how to sell them, and how to cook them. Making pigeons pay by levy.
+
+[50:54] Cooking issues. Oh, yeah, cooking shoes. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[51:15] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[51:41] Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Cart Driver, Denver's home for wood-fired pizzas, fresh oysters, seasonal market plates, cocktails, and conversation. Hey, this is Hannah Fordin. I'm the program manager here at Heritage Radio Network. This year we're celebrating HRN's 10th anniversary, and I want to thank all of our listeners and members for being a part of an incredible year of food radio. We never would have made it this far without all of you.
+
+[0:32] So HRN is now in its summer fun drive, and this is when we turn to you and ask that you make a donation to help ensure a bright future for Food Radio. Whether you listen to one show or 20, there's a reason why you keep tuning in week after week. All of our content is powered by a small nonprofit, and we rely on your generosity to keep going. Help us keep broadcasting the most thought-provoking, entertaining, and educational conversations happening in the world of food and beverage. So become a member today.
+
+[1:05] To celebrate our 10th anniversary, we have some brand new member gifts available online. So I encourage you to snag your new favorite pizza-themed t-shirt or enamel pin today and show the world how much you love HRN. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donates. You can snag your 10th anniversary member swag. And thank you.
+
+[1:43] I don't know. Roberta's Pizza Read and Bushwick! Brrrrrr Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammerloppers. How are you doing?
+
+[1:50] We got Matt in the Booth. How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic. And we got uh semi-regular special guest, Jack Shram. Jack, the what are you, the nail?
+
+[1:59] The nail. The nail. Head bartender at existing conditions. How are you doing, Jack? I'm doing well.
+
+[2:03] Thank you, Dave. How are you? I'm doing all right. So uh Jack may or may not chime in early in the program, but I have him doing some uh I have him doing some work for our uh classics in the field segment, which I may do earlier because this may go long. Uh Nastasia is enjoying manipulating the headphones right into the microphone.
+
+[2:20] That is not mouth noises, people, so you need not be disgusted. That's just Nastasia manipulating her earpieces for no reason. When do we downgrade Jack from special guest to just guest? Wow. Whoa.
+
+[2:32] I mean, you've been around a bunch. I said semi-regular. All right. I maintain special status, thank you. Man.
+
+[2:42] I'm just saying I get used to him. I've gotten used to him. Is that a good thing or is that like a familiarity breeds contempt kind of a situation? The the latter, come on. Wow.
+
+[2:51] So uh so Booker, my son Booker, who doesn't listen, so I can say what I like. Uh, you know, he's he's well known for doing the shut up dad, which is now my ringtone. If Booker calls me, you'll hear it. He goes, shut up, dad. A listener very nicely made me that ringtone when he was on the air doing it.
+
+[3:07] But he uh, you know, he has when he was younger, he wanted to hang out with this person, but he had heard the phrase uh what is it called? Uh what makes the heart grow? Absence makes the heart grow fonder. So he thought the less often he spoke to this person, the more they would like him. It's a girlfriend.
+
+[3:26] Well, yeah, girlfriend ish, yeah. So he's like, he's like, I'm not gonna talk to her for like two weeks. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, right? I'm like, Booker, it doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way.
+
+[3:34] That's not what that means. But the reverse of that, familiarity breeds contempt, is in fact what that means. Sometimes true. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:43] Alright, all right, all right, I got something. Whoa, not yet. Well, you got something to talk about, not the book. If you talk about the book, I'll stab you. Okay.
+
+[3:44] Then I will save my book thing. Yeah, get the post it. That's why I've got so people, the way to do this, by the way, if you ever have to do something like this and you're too disorganized to actually write things out, i.e., you're like me, what you do, and this is if you come on this, if you are a writer of a book and you come on this show, please let me have the book a week ahead of time so that I can make sure I read it. Because I don't have books, I don't have people on with books that I don't read, right? And what I typically do then is I just take a crap ton of post-it notes and I write notes to myself and post it to the book so it doesn't ruin the book, and then I go through the post-it notes.
+
+[4:23] It's the fast way to find things on the on the radio. Uh call in your questions to 718 497 2128. That's 718-497-2128. So last week uh on Tuesday, Nastasi and I were not here because Nastasia and I were in Detroit. And I will say, and take note of this, people.
+
+[4:42] Uh they asked, uh I was a judge of a cocktail contest, but also Nastasia was a judge of a cocktail contest. Excellent cocktail contest, Judge. Excellent cocktail contest, Judge, right, Nastasia? Yeah, she's shaking her head, yes. Much to the surprise and delight of all of us.
+
+[4:57] Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I also have to say, had a uh had a good time in Detroit. And I I will say this in Detroit, for those of you that don't have never been to Detroit or don't know anything about that part of the United States, uh, for some reason, which is actually known but makes no sense, it makes as little sense as the fact that I call liquor and fruit blended together and spun out in a centrifuge Houstino, for about the same level of sense. They call uh hot dogs in Detroit Coneys.
+
+[5:26] Right? Because the story goes that there was uh there was a group of uh Greek immigrants who came to Detroit via New York, and they were like, this is like early, early, early 1900s. And they were like, uh, they were like, uh, well, they sell hot dogs in Coney Island. So when I get they don't talk like this because they were A, Greek and B, you know, but like, hey, uh, they call them Coney Island. Coney Island has hot dogs, so when they made it to Detroit, they started calling them Coneys.
+
+[5:52] And I have to say, Detroit people, please, if you visit New York City, do not go to Coney Island to have a hot dog. You will be sorely, sorely disappointed. Now, this is not an insult, I don't want to hear anything. This is not an insult to uh Nathan's hot dogs. Nathan's hot dogs are fine standard hot dogs, but the conies, as they call them in Detroit, are freaking awesome.
+
+[6:18] They have uh what uh uh Wurst Aficionados would refer to as snap. Now I am extremely pro-snap in a sausage, and you very, very, very, very rarely, if ever, these days, get a hot dog aka Frankfurter with some real explosive snap on that sucker. Jack, you like snap on it? Oh, you gotta have snap. You gotta have snap, but Nathan's doesn't have snap.
+
+[6:42] If you hand me a caseless hot dog, we're done. Wow, caseless caseless hot dog. Have you ever seen the videos which I highly recommend watching of the uh fake casings being stripped off of Casely Frank Caseless Frankfurters? It is disturbing and mesmerizing at the same time. Uh yeah, I've spoken on the air before about the uh the armor factory rancidity problem, right?
+
+[7:04] Probably. Probably. You're like, I don't know. So uh interesting story. I think I've said this before.
+
+[7:11] Matt, have I said this before? Not not with me in the booth, so I want to hear it. Alright. So uh hot dogs, aka Frankfurters, are a subset of, I can't believe I haven't told the story, whatever, are a subset of emulsified uh sausages where you you you make a batter, right? I had to have told the story.
+
+[7:30] You make a batter out of it, then the batter is uh pumped into used to be pumped into casings when it's the snap comes and cooked off. Um so now they they often uh strip off the casings that are used to make them, we make caseless hot dogs. So I believe it was, and in fact I know it was Armor had a giant plant that was um making hot dogs, and everyone loved these hot dogs. They redesigned the plant, and nobody liked the hot dogs anymore. They were no good.
+
+[7:58] And what they discovered, and they I forget who they hired, they hired someone famous uh to come in and do an analysis of the plant and try to figure out everything that was different in the new plant versus the old plant. By the way, this is good instruction for any of you out there that one are doing food on a on a commercial scale, or B, need to scale a process from one uh scale to another, or C, need to change where you're cooking, because a lot of these kind of uh commercial, industrial, even home processes are very finely tuned to the equipment involved. So, what they discovered was all of the processes were exactly identical, uh, except for in the old plant, there was a guy whose job it was to wheel the giant carts full of emulsified meat batter from the place where the emulsified meat batter was made to where it was pumped into the casings. And uh what what happened was is that during that transit time it took so long. I don't know whether the guy was lazy, I don't know whether the guy was, I don't know, whether it was a long way to go, I have no idea.
+
+[9:07] But there was a good bit of kind of fermentation and other kind of oxidative processes going on between the making of the batter and the pumping into the casings, and in the new factory, they no longer had that step. So it went right from making the batter into the casings, and nobody liked them anymore because they didn't have that funk from the uh from the slight whatever it was, fermentation, rancidity, whatever was going on. And so they had to engineer into the process that weight step to let the sausage go slightly off before they pumped it into the casings. And this is another version of one person's rancidity is another person's delicious, and you can go search because I know I've talked about Reese's peanut butter cups before. Uh anyway.
+
+[9:49] How the hell did I even get on that? Detroit. Detroit has amazingly good uh coney slash hot dogs with good snap. I will say this though. I said to the person, I said to the person, uh, give me this.
+
+[10:02] By the way, Nastasia, how legitimate did those people look? With the white t shirt? The hot dog slash coney people looked like that this store opened in like it's called Lafayette, was the place we went, and it opened in like 1913 or 1911 or something like this, 1914. And these people looked like they had been frozen in time sometime in the 50s, like with the the too tight white t shirt, the paper hat, like the kind of the awesome voice, the look of I make hot dogs all day long. All I do is hot dogs all day long.
+
+[10:34] They give you this look, they have a look in their eye. Like it's like they don't even really see you. They see straight through you to the billion other customers they've given hot dogs to before. You're just like, you're just like, in other words, like the hot dog is a constant. It's like a zen of hot dogness where it's just like there is no actual interaction anymore.
+
+[10:53] It's just, it's just you, space-time continuum and the dog. I think they're just immediately assigning a number to your human form, which is two hot dogs. Yeah, yeah. That guy's gonna eat two. Right, right.
+
+[11:08] One, four. Right, but like in other words, like I don't even think that they live in time. I think that they are suspended in space-time. The dog dimension. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:17] And like the hot dogs, somehow there's a flux in and out of hot dogs and people, but it's all kind of just agglomerated because they have this look in their eye, faint smile on their face. Dogs. Yeah, not like super happy, just a faint smile of like, this is how life works. Dogs. Anyway, uh, the one mistake I made was I said, I I said, how do you how do you have them?
+
+[11:41] And they put the they put chili on them, and I wish they hadn't had the chili. The chili was good. I wish I'd had one chili dog, and I wish the other ones had just been sauerkraut and uh and mustard. So you can experience both. So I could experience the both.
+
+[11:56] Yeah, that was the one. But uh also we were at the lady of the house. Talk about the winning cocktail. Why don't you talk about the winning cocktail? Well, it's surprising.
+
+[12:03] That's it. Yeah, but you're you're you're a judge, you're completely authorized to stop to talk about the hot dog. I mean, the the uh the cocktail, and maybe if you're talking into the microphone, you'll stop shaking the microphone table with your foot. I have slapped Nastasia in the leg about 30 times this show alone, for hitting the microphone so hard with her feet that they wobble a millimeters. I haven't heard a thing.
+
+[12:25] I don't know. No, no, no. It's irritating. You gotta slap harder, Dave, or the mics won't pick it up. Well, I'm trying to be, you know, I'm trying to be supportive.
+
+[12:32] Anyway, let's talk about the cocktails, Nastasia. First of all, talk about what the competition was. Chefs making cocktails. Okay, the microphone's here. Chefs making cocktails.
+
+[12:44] Well, you want to be a little more kind of effusive or demonstrative of what's going on? Detroit chefs making cocktails. Okay, normally in a cocktail contest, you have bartenders make Jack. You want to explain how a cocktail contest is. Well, usually in a cocktail contest, it's a bunch of bartenders that make a lot of drinks a lot of the time making drinks.
+
+[13:01] Right. And this was the twist was it wasn't gonna be kind of one of these cutthroat cocktail contests between bartenders, which are a lot about show. What percentage of a cocktail contest, Jack, is about the drink. Is there a number less than zero? Yeah, right.
+
+[13:16] Well, a lot of it is a who needs to win for whatever reason, whether they think they can sell the drink depending on the contest, and then how good your tap dance is, and how well that tap dance fits into whatever they're trying to push. And not to say that those things aren't important also for you know the various marketers who run these cocktail contests. Everybody's gotta everybody's gotta eat. Everybody gotta eat, which by the way is gonna come across in the uh in the in the book we're reviewing today. Oh, yeah.
+
+[13:39] Um but this contest was a little bit different, and you know, it's supposed to be kind of more lighthearted and friendly because you know, chefs were invited to do the cocktails. Now, I don't know why it would be more lighthearted and friendly. Oh, I know chefs don't respect cocktails, that's why. Ah, uh, burn. Actually, it used to be chefs didn't respect cocktails.
+
+[13:58] I think chefs are more and more respecting cocktails as the years go on. I think they realize that it's a it is that there are people in the cocktail world that spend just as much time thinking about cocktails as you know they think about other things. Anyways, so and it was for charity. So you, you know, you the chefs came in, they made their cocktails, and then they did charity. And we ended up voting for a uh uh a melon cocktail, which you know, Jack, I would not like, but it was a well-made cocktail.
+
+[14:26] If you are a chef, and by the way, it was uh Chef Kate from Lady of the House who was the person, former FCI grad. Yeah. She, it was her idea, she set it up. I think we're gonna try to do one in New York. What do you think, Jack?
+
+[14:38] Chefs making cocktails for charity at existing conditions, what do you think? Yeah. I think we're gonna try to do it in New York. Sounds great. It's gonna be fun, right?
+
+[14:45] Yeah. Yeah. So here's a word to- Oh, I can't wait to clown on these people, especially if I know them. Oh, delicious. All right, look, the chefs were in general were very good at coming up with kind of flavor combinations as they you'd think they would be.
+
+[14:59] Yeah, it's their job. Yeah. But here's what they are not good at. They had to make four drinks for the judges, right? First of all, chefs are terrible at wash lines.
+
+[15:10] They don't understand the idea of a wash line. So for those line on a plate. Yeah. Yeah. Although you they do understand if I give you the giant piece of short rib and Nastasi the tiny piece of short rib, then Nastasia is gonna get bent.
+
+[15:25] Yeah. It's an eight-ounce short rib. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there you go. So, like, here's the deal.
+
+[15:30] So, a wash line for those of you that never had to kind of think about bar service, is where the cocktail hits in a glass. And if you serve me a very short pour and you serve Jack a very long pour, one part of me says, Wise, because he can consume more liquor than I can at this point in my life. Another part of me says, hey, I'm paying the same amount as this Jamoke, i.e. I eat zero at the contest, but hey, I'm paying the same amount. Give me the same amount of drinks.
+
+[15:57] So, one, they weren't focused on wash lines. Two, they hadn't practiced making four drinks. None of them had practiced making four drinks. So almost no one had the the two-handed like quadruple shake down. So they were almost all under shook.
+
+[16:13] Because no one had told them that shaking is actually doing something. It's not a it's not flair. So Jack is uh uh uh to my chagrin, loves a little bit of bar flare at the bar. The man cannot lift a bottle without spinning it. It's just not in his nature.
+
+[16:29] If there's a cap on the bottle, bottle gonna be spun, yo. Oh, yeah. And like, and the thing is is that I think people who don't do this for a living perceive all of this stuff as just flair. Oh, it's just tomfoolery back there. Yeah, shaking your drinks, stirring your drinks.
+
+[16:47] We had a couple of very, very lucky misses because when you're okay, so when you're shaking a drink, you take the two tins, one tin fits inside of the other, you hit it, and then you form a vacuum seal and you shake it. But as we all know, you could get a leaky well, we don't all know. As some of you know, you could get a leaky tin set, and if you have a leaky tin set, there will be no seal, and then if you're just holding the big tin and you shake it, the little tin can shoot off the back and stuff could go everywhere. So I saw a couple, I saw a couple no lockdown with the finger shakes, Jack. No explosion though.
+
+[17:21] Wow. Saw a couple towards the guest shakes, yes, which are hilarious when they go wrong, but no mishaps, no mishaps. Uh, and I thought the flavors uh very good overall. Very good. What do you think?
+
+[17:33] Mm-hmm. Talk about the one you didn't like. No, I'm not gonna call out an no Nastasia. I don't know, Nastasia has never been on the training on any of our uh uh any of our trainings, I guess, because and even if she was she wouldn't be paying attention. But it you never talk negative about another chef or bartender.
+
+[17:55] Nobody listens to the show, Dave. Just tell her. No, you never do. You never do. It's it's a rule we have.
+
+[17:59] You don't do it. It's hard enough in this industry to make a freaking living. Why would you take anyone down? Right? Now, I will take down certain there's like a couple of people that are on my list where I will take them down in public, where I will say bad things about them in public.
+
+[18:14] But it's a very, very, very short list, and none of them are chefs or bartenders. So anyway. Um I I like to try to go back. Oh, talk about the uh bar we went to that we enjoyed. The smell bar.
+
+[18:27] Yeah. Uh Pumato is the perfumery. I forget what they call the I don't remember the bar when they open it up, but it's an interesting idea. They had a perfume shop in um in Detroit, and it's in a basement, and they spent crazy amount of energy outfitting this per and it turns into a bar, but it converts in the way that a Murphy bed or the way that a motorhome converts from like driving or eating to sleeping. So like when they turn it from a perfume shop into a bar, like all the tables flip down out of nowhere, and all of a sudden they have all these seats and it's in this basement, and all of the the lamps are custom stained glass lamps that represent uh aroma molecules, and then there's like Morse code talking about uh aroma and flavor in the bar.
+
+[19:14] What was the quote? Do you remember? I don't remember looking. Anyway, amazing place. Uh husband and wife team run it.
+
+[19:21] Uh, and so what they do is they sell perfumes during the day, and then at night they have uh drinks that are all based on not using the perfume, which although we'll get to that later, not using the perfume, but based on the uh aromas that they make in their perfumery business. And so they'll they'll basically they'll spray either on the base of the glass or on the napkin, or sometimes on a tester strip, uh, the and they and they have a non-alk for each one too. So they do a non-alk pair and an alcoholic pair, and you have the scent and the and the drink at the same time. And I thought it was kind of a I thought it was a great place. I had a great time.
+
+[19:58] And they said that well, you know, it's very hard to get someone to show up at your perfume shop and spend an hour like thinking about the different scents and aromas that you make. It's just kind of the kind of in and they're kind of out. So the bar came to it because they were like, well, if someone's sitting in down and having a couple of drinks, I can get them to think about the aromas for a couple of hours. So, all in all, I have to say, a lot of cool and interesting stuff happening uh in Detroit. Uh, you have anything else to report about Detroit?
+
+[20:27] Anything about Motown? Oh, Stevie Wonder's favorite candy. I can't remember. Oh my god! So we go to Motown.
+
+[20:33] I'm gonna get in some big trouble here. This is something I probably shouldn't bring this up. I'm not gonna bring it up. The glove? Well, let's just say that in Detroit, it's still cool to be very pro Michael Jackson.
+
+[20:48] Apparently, none of them have seen the recent video. I'll just leave it at that. So, like it they're still at the Motown Museum, very pro Michael Jackson, and they started they have a glove there, one of his gloves, and the tour guide who is very how shall we say bouncy? Bouncy? Anyone who is short of stature, she called a shorty doo wop.
+
+[21:13] Any shorty doo wop, shorty doo wops. And we're like, whoa, whoa, you need to chill out. It's hot as hell in here. You must chill out. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:21] But like, so like uh right or wrong, Nastasia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is Dave a shorty doo-op? Uh no, I was a medium doo-op. Okay, okay, okay.
+
+[21:31] Yeah, but like like aggressively bouncy. And um, she shows us Michael Jackson's glove, and she's like, there's still DNA in that glove, and Nastasi and I immediately think this conversation's going a different way. We think it's going a different way. And she goes, so maybe we can clone him again and have another Michael Jackson. And Nastassian are like, that's not what we thought you were gonna say.
+
+[21:57] That's definitely not where we thought this was going. Yeah. Stevie. Anyway, so uh, and we saw the it, you know, the bet the best part about it, honestly, is you see the studio where so many amazing songs were uh were recorded, uh, all the way up through, I think they moved they moved out of that recording studio somewhere between 68 and 72 when they moved to uh LA. But just hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of amazing songs recorded in this studio, which is really it's a tiny little studio.
+
+[22:30] They have the drum kit that Marvin Gaye played, and they have the vibes that Stevie Wonder played, and the microphone cords are still hanging from the ceiling. Amazing. Uh it's a crappy little studio. I mean, compared to modern stuff, but it's just it just goes to show it's not crappy, but you know what I mean? It just goes to show what you you know, all this amazing stuff in this little place.
+
+[22:48] So here's the good story in the food-related story why this is coming out. So uh, you know, Miss Effusive tour guide was saying, so Barry Gordy put a candy machine in told the candy guy, when you refill it, you can refill it in any order you want, but just make sure that slot four is baby Ruth. Always put, always put Baby Ruth in slot four. And she goes, the reasoning, she pantomimes. This is how nutty she was.
+
+[23:18] She pantomimes a blind person using the candy machine. And she's like, because little Stevie Wonder would come out, put in his 10 cents, and then she pantomimes him slapping the knobs and counting in order, pulls number four because Stevie Wonder's favorite candy, baby Ruth. Baby Ruth. Second favorite candy, Twizzlers. So if you ever get to meet Stevie Wonder, Baby Ruth and Twizzlers, at least when he was a young boy.
+
+[23:41] Favorite video game, Atari. Uh that's not a true story. There is a fake Stevie Wonder Atari 2600 advertisement on, which is amazing. And my other Stevie Wonder story, which I don't have a right to tell you, is that Nastasia knows for a fact that when you get Stevie Wonder on the phone, he likes to flap his mouth. Yes.
+
+[24:02] Right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stevie Wonder flapping his jaw. Uh all right.
+
+[24:09] So, uh Ken Ingber wrote in an essay about French service. But Ken, I enjoyed reading it. It is too long to read on the air. If if you want me to read, people, your thing on the air, you have to keep it relatively short. But the short of it is that he disagrees with Nastasia liking uh French service.
+
+[24:34] He prefers restaurants that are run by French people in non-French environments where they have a more relaxed service environment. And he talks crap about a restaurant, which is another reason I can't read it. He talks crap about a restaurant where I know some of the people that work there. Which restaurant? See?
+
+[24:51] Don't you wish you knew? It's the same exact voice I'm gonna use for the segment we're gonna do in a minute. Uh let me put my glasses in so I can read this question. My eyes just get worse and worse. Okay.
+
+[25:03] Hello everyone in the studio. Are there are essential oils safe to use uh on cocktail garnishes to add fragrance if properly diluted? Nastasia, can you stop spilling coffee everywhere? Sorry, it's her coffee. What coffee are you drinking, Nastasia?
+
+[25:19] I don't know. Well, Jack, when you got her the coffee, what was the what was the order? Okay, so Nastasia likes the worst possible coffee that you can imagine. Specifically, in the same way that my grandpa could blind taste the worst wine in the world. So I attempted to uh she likes whole milk and some sugar.
+
+[25:43] And it's like a specific ratio that I've managed to, I think, dial in at this point. But this place only had skim and cream. So I had to do a delicate ratio. Oh my god. Delicate ratio was not my band's name in high school, nor was it my nickname.
+
+[25:59] There's nothing about me that is delicate ratio. Um, alright. So, but it's well known that she likes bad coffee. No, yeah. Worst possible, especially if it's affiliated with the band.
+
+[26:09] Check out this. Check this out. Nastasia Lopez and I are in a diner. By the way, wasn't even that diner. The clique in Detroit.
+
+[26:18] And they had the we had like like huge piles of fried cinnamon rolls, and uh with with like goopy frosting all of them, good, these things called skillets. But Nastasia says, in the Midwest, no one gives you milk. So she said to the waiter, 89 times milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk for the coffee. And then I'm like, Nastasi, what are you talking about? She's like, in the Midwest, they only give you these creamer things.
+
+[26:45] I was like, because of what? Like they have creamers on the coast too. It was just this weird idea about the spilled the milk all over me. She punched the milk into me, all over me. And I was like, something I don't care about is again causing me problems.
+
+[27:05] Alright. Interesting pilgrimage if you're in Southern California. The worst coffee of all time that I think could possibly exist. Like I it's it was it must have just been like old tea and darker brown food color. I don't know how they did it, but they made it.
+
+[27:20] What was do you do you remember the name of the diner? It's a it's a super cute really lovely diner really close to the airport. But how stale was the don't get coffee on my book, please. It's extremely valuable. It wasn't that bad.
+
+[27:33] It was great. No, it was well, she loved it. It was oh, it was perfect. It was exactly what we needed in the front of that van. What year was that coffee made?
+
+[27:41] Uh probably like 84. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 85, maybe. So, what this diner does is they buy the pre-ground, like you know, big number 10 cans, then open it and let it breathe for a while. For a couple years, yeah, yeah, and then they make it it was cheaper because we bought an open case, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[27:59] Yeah, yeah. You don't like monsooned coffee, do you, Jack? It's not my favorite. It's not what I would drink. I don't think that people drink a lot of monsoon coffee.
+
+[28:06] I feel that was a thing like 10 years ago. You familiar with monsoon coffee? What it what is this? So monsoon coffee, what happens is is the the beans in their green state are left in bags and then you know kept over like a wet season in like storehouses and they swell and turn kind of yellow, and then you roast those, and then they have different kinds, and then a lot of people are like, yeah, it's the note of spoilage from the bags. Is this it?
+
+[28:33] But some people like monsoon coffee. I don't mind. I mean it's it's interesting, it's different. Anyway. Pans coffee shop.
+
+[28:38] I haven't seen a lot of monsoon coffee recently. Anyway. The food looked great at this diner. Did you didn't eat the food? We were picking you up.
+
+[28:44] We were picking you up. How did that work out? Great. It worked out. It worked out exactly how we wanted it to.
+
+[28:52] Here's the thing. You ever watch the TV show from the 70s, the banana splits? Yeah. Yeah. Na na na na na na na na na na na.
+
+[29:03] Anyway. So like, they're all in these little buggies kind of driving around. Right? And so good. And that was Jack and Nastashi trying to pick me up at the airport because they would just go in any other lane other than where I was to pick me up.
+
+[29:21] And so like I was just singing like the banana, the banana, you know, uh, you know, banana split song, and like watching them like kind of just keep tooling around the airport in their in their Westphalia minivan. All right. Are essential oils safe to use as cocktail garnishes to add fragrance if properly diluted? Are there any safety procedures I should be following? And what's a reliable source of information about the culinary uses of these extracts?
+
+[29:49] Um, because I would like to start using aromatic oils on cocktail garnishes. I thought this would be straightforward, because in my mind, these are just extracts of oils you eat all the time. Unfortunately, it seems that the alternative medicine, in quotes, community has saturated the internet with so many claims on this topic that I can't find a source I trust. There are two major categories of claims. One, essential oils can be used in place of medicine.
+
+[30:11] I don't care about these claims because I use real medicine. Listen, don't be judgmental, uh, although I agree. Uh that being said, it would be interesting to know what research has been done on the topic. And two, essential oils can be harmfully used in food. This is concerning to me.
+
+[30:25] The sites uh claim uh that these clump from don't seem reliable. No there are no reliable sites published by unless you see a reference. Look, if you want to spend a really crappy day of your life, go look at health claims for um for anything, for anything. It like they're so disconnected. Just dip your toes in the Dr.
+
+[30:46] Mercala waters of garbage health information on the internet. We should just, you know, it like if I would one day do an entire show just devoted to making fun of and debunking crazy butt health claims on the internet that have no basis in reality, except you could do it for about 36 hours in a row and not make a dent in the vast quantity of garbage information there is there on the internet. Uh and that's not like I'm not talking about things that I have opinions about. I'm just talking about logical inconsistencies and clearly misrepresented quote unquote facts uh that are put out there. Um but that said, uh I will say this.
+
+[31:29] Um oh, the one that you bring up is uh pretty dramatic claims like celery seed oil causing miscarriages, etc. etc. Here's the thing. Uh as uh is well known, and Harold McGee talks about a lot, and a lot of people talk about a lot, um, a lot of the weird things in plants are extremely toxic in high quantities in in high concentrations. Uh so a lot of the things that we take uh as flavor components, like like the flavor of mint, is put there so that bugs don't eat the mint, right?
+
+[32:00] It's toxic to bugs in like large quantities. So, because a bug, presumably, is gonna use mint as a hundred percent of its daily diet, it's getting a lot of that kind of carbone molecule that you're getting in rather small quantities. And as a test of how what it's like to be a bug, I encourage you to do this. Buy a hundred percent, only do this if you're really kind of a freak show like I am. Buy pure mint oil.
+
+[32:27] Put some on a spoon, and then put it in your mouth. Then you will know what it's like to be a bug eating mint in terms of concentrations. It is, shall we say, unpleasant. Oh, did I tell you my business idea? No.
+
+[32:42] You have you have two collars on the air, too, so uh, or not on the air, obviously, but yeah. Uh just to the business idea real quick. Uh so get this fireworks, okay fireworks that are when you shoot off fireworks, plastic crap is everywhere, little paper stuff, and it does it and it doesn't go anywhere, and you have to clean up. I know this because I was cleaning this up in the house I moved out of yesterday. So it's like paper everywhere.
+
+[33:05] So get this. Pyro degradable is the business. Pyro degradable. Now listen to this. So Jen's like, Jen, who is, you know, my wife is biased against people who shoot fireworks, because she's not a fireworks person.
+
+[33:17] So she's like, I don't really know. She doesn't talk like that. I don't really know that the demographic that shoots fireworks is the ch is the demographic that cares about the earth. And I was like, listen, here's what you do. You lobby to make it the law.
+
+[33:29] So that you have to shoot pyrodegradable stuff. So first thing you do is you create pyrodegradable, the company in the trademark, and then you lobby for it to be the law that all the fireworks sold have to be pyrodegradable. Boom. So it just burned to nothing? Well, so that it decomposes within like two weeks of like being out in the rain and the wet and stuff like this.
+
+[33:51] Right? No plastic particles everywhere, biodegradable dyes. Do you think that you'll have problems with safety of like the tubes, like the fireworks apparatus? I don't know if you know this. The internet is a series of tubes.
+
+[34:04] That's true. That's a fact. Yeah. Well, maybe the tubes take a little longer to degrade. Yeah.
+
+[34:09] But that's also the tubes aren't like the tubes aren't littered all over your lawn. You could pick the tubes up. Reuse the uh okay reuse the tube, Jack. Uh, P.S., don't reuse the tubes. Don't reuse the tubes.
+
+[34:23] Listen, listen, listen, fireworks people. If you're buying reloadable mortars, there are very specific tube requirements for reusing the tubes. Please don't reuse the thin cardboard tubes. Tell them our dream when we get rich, what we're gonna do. Nastasi and I have decided a new kind of rich, not necessarily helicopter rich.
+
+[34:40] Helicopter rich means that you can take a helicopter wherever you want, uh, so you don't have to deal with traffic. We don't want to be helicopter rich. We want to wanna be rich. Well, it's not the goal. The goal is to be Groochie rich, where we can hire the Gruochies, the fireworks family, the Gruochies, to make a fireworks display for us, and then we can stand right next to them and say like smiley faces.
+
+[34:59] No smiley faces. That's just garbage. Smiley face, smiley face and a fireworks demonstration. It's just a trick. It was good the first time I saw it ten years ago.
+
+[35:06] I never need to see one again. Never need to see it again. Not a good firework. Anyway, uh also, Nastassi and I, Detroit splits their fireworks money with Canada, believe it or not. So they don't do it on 4th of July because Canada Day is close to the 4th of July, but not exactly the 4th of July, Canada.
+
+[35:25] So like Detroit sets it off in between Canada and the US in the water, and they split the money with Canada, and so it's not on the 4th of July. So we also saw their fireworks. This episode is brought to you by Cart Driver, Denver's home for wood-fired pizzas, fresh oysters, seasonal market plates, cocktails, and conversation. Tucked in a 640 square foot shipping container space in the heart of Denver's Rhino neighborhood, Cart Driver is the perfect place to stop in for an Italian-style spritz, prosecco on tap, and a wide variety of tinned fish. Open for lunch, dinner, community hour, and late night seven days a week.
+
+[36:06] Cartdriver is here for you with fresh, domestically sourced ingredients, and above all, hospitality. Learn more at CartHendriver.com. Caller you're on the air. Love it. Okay, yeah.
+
+[36:25] So I think I have the same one. It's like a big fire print with a grill on top. Yeah. Have you ruined the grate yet? Yes.
+
+[36:33] Yeah! That means you're doing it right. Yeah, so I so on that. What would you do to it to uh crank out a whole bunch of pizzas? Uh so I mean, uh I mean, for like a pizza, right?
+
+[36:52] Like, the only way I've seen people do actual grilled pizza, unlike the egg grill pizza, is to have uh they put a stone on, then you can parse the dough on the stone, and then you um and then you top it and put it on. But the problem is is that the the way that I use the cowboy grill, you could do the cowboy grill is large enough so that you could just have the heat on the one side, build some sort of dome to go over it, and then dome it over. But I think you're probably much better off just getting one of these dedicated small pizza ovens like Kenji Keys pushing that I don't I've never used them. I've always wanted one. I no longer have an outdoor space because I no longer have a place where I have an outdoor space, but I've always wanted to use it.
+
+[37:32] You could get it done, but uh getting the top and bottom to be perfectly in sync on a cowboy grill. I mean, the good news, like I say, cowboy grill big enough to get a temperature gradient, but that means that you have to create the other side so hot that the radiant off the dome, which by the way doesn't exist because your cowboy grill didn't come with a dome, is enough to get the uh the pizza cooked on the other side. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, my question is gonna be like what materials you'd use to build a dome, but if that sounds ridiculous, it's ridiculous. Well, I mean, I mean, it's really big.
+
+[38:03] I don't think anyone like the biggest spit spun tops for like a walk, like, are not big enough. I mean, you could find, hey, you know what you could do? Go to a hotel supply place and measure your grill, and they make stainless steel bowls big enough for this. Yeah, that's where I was headed. I I walked in, I remember I did a thing at Denver, and I had to work in a giant hotel, giant hotel, and their smallest bowl was enough to toss several small children in.
+
+[38:35] So, like, and then just drill a hole through that and put a heat proof handle on it, and then you're uh you're as we say, GTG. That's all you need for a loop, it doesn't need more insulation or anything like that. Nah. Nah. But if you want it to be reflective, I mean, think about it.
+
+[38:50] Like when you buy a lid for a walk, it's like spun aluminum. Like you want it to be relatively reflective because you want it to reflect the stuff back down. But I mean, you're not you're not making a retained heat masonry oven. You know what I mean? Right.
+
+[39:02] You could, if you want, like embed something uh in the coals, heat it up real hot, and then hold it over the pizza, old school salamander style, that will work. But you know what that is? That is a P I T A. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:18] In other words, at that at that point, I would just assume getting the small pizza oven. You know what I mean? Exactly. Exactly. All right.
+
+[39:24] Take care. All right, bye. Uh we have anyone else, or we lose the other caller. No, we lost that one. All right.
+
+[39:29] So, uh essential oils. So a lot of things are very harmful. First of all, some some essential oils are stuff that are not foodstuffs, fragrances that are not foodstuffs. Be wary. But things that, for instance, usionol, right?
+
+[39:44] You can buy usionol, like oil of clove, a little bit of it, very diluted in alcohol, like super diluted and alcohol and sprayed on, not gonna be a problem. You consume a lot of it and and real problems. Um the issue with them is that it's very easy to overdose. I would go, and I find that a lot of people that use these things, it's easy to over-overuse them. Uh, and also they are unpleasant when used in uh high quantities.
+
+[40:13] Uh so just I would just be careful of that. But things that are made from foods that are diluted down to this uh the especially like in general, I would say you're probably okay. I don't use them because I don't use them, but I know a lot of people use them. Audrey Saunders uses them. Mandy Aftel uh sells uh you know from Aftelier perfumes, sells uh fragrances that are completely naturally derived that are that you can be used in food systems.
+
+[40:41] All right. Okay. So since we don't have time for more questions, we're gonna go on to this week's episode of Classic Seed in the Feed. This week, we have uh let me tell you quickly how I got to this one, right? Because it's kind of a long journey.
+
+[40:58] So Karen Hess, irascible, now dead uh writer of kind of Americana and history of Americana books, uh, did a reprint of uh the Carolina Rice cookbook, which was put out by a Miss Stoney in 1901 called uh the Carolina Rice Kitchen. Now, uh the Carolina Rice Kitchen, I think the subheading was uh African influence. And interesting book. I read that. Uh that eventually led me actually to write right when it became published, a book you should all read called, although it might be outdated now by this point, Black Rice.
+
+[41:32] You know, the uh like an early history of how you know rice came to be in uh South Carolina. Anyway, so embedded in this book, and this is how I operate, embedded in this book, which came out in 1998, is uh a single thing about rice birds. Now, what happened was is that rice birds were this uh they're actually the bobble ink, which is a bird that still exists, they're a ground nesting bird, they're completely protected now. You cannot kill one for any reason, right? This is why I was interested.
+
+[42:03] Um, so rice is not not ancestral to South Carolina, right? It was it was planted by humans starting in the I forget whether it's late 1600s or early 1700s, but it was planted by people relatively recently in South Carolina. Uh so these birds, the bobble links, right? These uh aka rice birds, they were flying because they're what's called passerine birds. They fly long distances, they migrate from uh, you know, the north of the US, like New England, I think all the way up to Canada, and they migrate all the way down to South America.
+
+[42:39] And kind of when they make it down to South Carolina, they're hungry because they've been flying a long time, but they've never seen anything. They've never seen anything as rich as the South Carolina rice fields. So they would descend in giant swarms down and just eat and eat and eat and eat and eat and eat and eat, and they would get so fat and they were so numerous that the old legends were that if you took a shotgun and fired it into the air, that like 30 of them would fall down in one hit. And people would eat them, much like the ortalon, which is how I got interested in it. So the ortalon is a bird that's eaten whole, and it's also a passerine bird in France.
+
+[43:21] It migrates from uh north of Europe down through France, I think to Africa, and those are eaten whole. And that's the famous one where that was uh Mitteran's last meal, and that you have to cover cover your face. Hide yourself from God. Hide yourself from God to eat it, and they're roasted whole and you eat them bones in all. And those ones, because the French are, you know, they're kind of tweaked out a little bit, they they drown those in uh, I believe it's Armagnac.
+
+[43:44] I think it's Armagnac. I would go Armagnac. Could be cognac, but I think it's Armagnac. They drown them uh so that you don't lose anything inside. They roast them whole and then you eat them.
+
+[43:51] Always wanted to have one, never had one. Are there any birds that exist that are not endangered that you can eat like that? So the bobelink, not endangered, but well, maybe now. You can't eat it. You can't eat it.
+
+[43:59] Well, here's why. So anyway, so like the other thing was is that when one died and hit the ground, apparently they were so fat from eating the rice. So ordelons, they they they capture them alive and force feed them to make them fat. Feeding them and feeding them and feeding them. For those Wu-Tang fans out there.
+
+[44:16] And uh, so but this rice birds would naturally feed themselves to the same point that orderlines would be, so much so that when they hit the ground, they would burst. Or as they used to say when I was learning German, Ichplatzebald. So, like they hit the ground and like they kind of blow up. And anyway, so there's these these magic birds, and here's what happened. So uh like there was a hurricane that wiped out the rice crop.
+
+[44:41] Um aside from the fact that, you know, um rice in South Carolina had to be harvested uh manually because they didn't have machinery that could go in there and do it. So there rice really dropped down a lot. So then after this hurricane, it wiped out the rice industry in I think like nine in the early 1900s, and then simultaneously with that, they passed a law that stops you from shooting any birds other than specific game birds. And so they became illegal to kill these bobble links. Ironically, the majority of them are their ground nesting birds, are killed by lawnmowers now.
+
+[45:16] Like, so lawn mowers are pulping these birds on the regular. Now, when I found this book and researched it, I read, I I called every single country on the flight path, the consoles of every single country on the flight path of the bobble link from the United States to Brazil to figure out, including the islands, if any of these people still ate these suckers so that I could get a hold of one and see what it was like to have a rice bird. Answer no. Answer no. Uh but which one, which country has the most lax laws.
+
+[45:51] I don't know. I don't know. Well, because a lot of people have laws, but they don't really enforce them. You know what I mean? You can't just ask the consulate that question.
+
+[45:58] Hey, but yeah, but if I do this thing, am I in trouble? Who's who's asking? Who's asking? Why? That's like when I called the Secret Service once and I asked them when the New York.
+
+[46:10] I live in New York, right? So I told this? Last week. No, I told it to you personally. I never said on the air.
+
+[46:16] Did I talk about the Secret Service on the air, Matt? No. No. No. Stasi can't tell between her personal life and the radio show.
+
+[46:22] That's really sad for her. Uh so what happened is that like the president was coming to town. This was, I guess this was Clinton, right? So, like when I was living, you know, just moved to New York, and I had a car still, and the president would come to town and they would tow all the cars in the path, but they wouldn't let you know what the path was for security reasons. So I called the Secret Service and I'm like, hey, if you tow my car because the president comes by it, one, do you how do you let me know where you put it?
+
+[46:49] And two, who pays for the toe? Because I don't really think it's my fault. And the guy's like, why are you asking? I just want to know who pays the toll. I don't know, and if I knew, I wouldn't tell you why you ask it.
+
+[47:00] I'm like, hey, the guy was being so aggro. I think it's a legitimate question. Who pays for the toe? Dave, you didn't get toed. But he could have.
+
+[47:10] But I could have. And I think it's an interesting question. It is. That's that's fair. I mean, New York City is such an affront on everything.
+
+[47:18] When someone, I mean, I've had human waste like wiped on my car when they, you know. I've had like, anyway, New York. So I came upon in my studies a book called The Market Assistant, uh, written by Thomas F. DeVoe, uh published in 1867. Now, he originally wrote he originally wrote a book uh called, I think just uh The Market, published in 1862, just prior to the American Civil War.
+
+[47:48] But he wrote a book called The Market Assistant Um in 1867. And the very first thing you notice, if you've ever seen The Gangs of New York, seen the gangs in New York? Yes. You familiar? Nastasia, like Nastasia and I have kind of a love love not wanting to be friends with uh what's his name?
+
+[48:06] Um Daniel Day Lewis. We love the idea of Daniel Day Lewis, but don't want to be his friends. I want to look at it. Yeah, yeah. He has to play like a normal father.
+
+[48:14] Just a guy. Just like a guy. Average dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Hohokus, New Jersey.
+
+[48:20] Mawa. Let's have a catch, son. No, no, no, we need another take. That's not what it's like. It's not working.
+
+[48:30] Anyway, so like one of the memorable things about that movie was uh was Daniel Day Lewis playing a character named Bill the Butcher Pool. And Bill the Butcher Pool wore a very distinctive top hat. And I always thought this was some sort of affectation. But no, but certain butchers used to wear top hats. And when you see a picture of your boy DeVoe, who was one of the best known butchers in uh New York in the middle to uh late part of the 1800s, you can see him in his top hat.
+
+[49:02] And there are other pictures of butchers in top hats uh at this time, which is kind of cool. The top hat was invented in the late 1700s, and uh people who wanted to, even people who were, even though it was a lot of times aristocrats and higher end people who were wearing higher class people who were wearing them, people who wanted to show authority of all classes would wear them. So certain police officers, postal people, and as it turns out, butchers. All right. Do you think New York smelled worse then or now?
+
+[49:31] Oh, gotta be then, but I think you don't notice it. It's just that's that's just the air. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. So by the way, this book, you must look it up. This is one of those must lookups.
+
+[49:41] It is uh available on the Internet Archive, it is available on a couple of university websites, it's available in Google Books to download. The Market Assistant, containing a brief description of every article of human fool food sold in the public markets of the cities of New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and Brooklyn. Notice Brooklyn's its own city, including the various domestic and wild animals, poultry, game, fish, vegetables, fruits, and etc. and etc. With many curious incidents and anecdotes by Thomas F.
+
+[50:12] DeVoe, author of The Market Book, etc. And then in uh quotes, the subline is What We Eat. Uh printed in New York in 1867. And this is, by the way, an intense book. So uh all the sketches in it, he drew sketches and then hired an engraver to make them.
+
+[50:32] He's just hardcore. He was an historian, he lived to be 80 years old. He was born in uh the Yonkers, and from the early part of the he was born in 1811, I think, in Yonkers, and he started his butcher business in the in the 1830s, and remained a butcher in Jefferson Market, which was one of our original markets on Sixth Avenue and Christopher Street, a big market. Now, nothing. There's a place called Jefferson Market, nothing, nothing.
+
+[50:55] Yeah. Uh, but it was a huge market. He maintained his stall there until I believe the 1870s when he became the head of markets for New York City. Wow. And he was a sick dude.
+
+[51:06] Um, uh he let me see what it uh this book was written, so he wrote the first book about the market, which is a history of markets in New York and the East Coast, which is also a must-read, right? And he's like, I got interrupted right in my second book by the American Civil War, which he just calls the rebellion. And he's pissed off because his first book came out the day that Fort Sumter was fired upon that started the Civil War, and so he's a little bit pissy about that. But uh, anyway, so he decided he had so much information that he was gonna divide his book into historical and fun facts. That was gonna be volume two, which I don't think he ever came out with, and useful.
+
+[51:45] That's why it's called The Market Assistant, which is book one. So this book is entirely how to shop in New York City and environs in the 1860s and what you can get there, and how it tastes and how to cook it. It's 1860s on food and cooking. It's 1860s, like kind of on food and cooking mixed with Cook's catalog, mixed with everything. He has recipes, he has poems, uh, and I'll just say, what I deem useful is gleaned from the daily wants, the common expressions of the day, something to eat.
+
+[52:15] What shall we have today for dinner? This is what he was writing about. What is there in our markets fit to eat? What kinds of meats, poultry, games, fish, vegetables, and fruits are in season? What names are given to different joints of meat, and what dishes are they severally and generally used for?
+
+[52:30] We've had roasts, stakes, and chops, and chop steaks and roasts until we are tired of them. Now do I say, what shall we have for dinner? These, with many other exclamations, are daily discussed, and no one has the answer. We have reclaimed for this book a comprehensive answer to all questions of this nature. So he sets himself up to be a pretty badass book.
+
+[52:44] And I have to say he delivers. So um, and in it are some poems. You should look up, uh, he has a poem uh credited to which I don't know the reference to, Eaton, in a review of New York in 1814, about how markets are places where everyone of all classes meet. The place where no distinctions are, all sex and colors mingled are. And then a long sort, like a long poem which you have to read, but the one section I like is um uh nothing more clear.
+
+[53:13] I'll tell you why all kinds of folks must eat or die. Objects of honor or disgrace are all seen at the marketplace. So this is the kind of poetry you can read in this book, along with other uh interesting stories. In his section on beef, which of course he's an expert, uh, he writes, um section on bee. He has a section on what different nationalities eat.
+
+[53:37] I don't think we have time to get into it. You know, classic 1800s. Like liking, but of course semi-racist, because anyway. Uh he has an interesting section on how kosher butchers operate in it, like very specific. I told you a story about my great grandpa and kosher butchers, right?
+
+[53:55] Mm-hmm. I don't know if I've heard it, but we can do that off the air. Alright, right. Uh, if anyone wants to hear my great grandpa, my great grandpa was uh one of my great grandpa and my stepfather's side was a butcher, and they used to cheat, the they have kosher inspectors, and so one of the things they would check for was that the pleura of the lungs wasn't attached to the chest wall. And so they used to make an incision where the inspectors wouldn't look, go in and make sure it was separated because they had to pay for kosher inspection no matter what.
+
+[54:22] In other words, you're paying the guy a amount of money to inspect whether it passes or not. So they wanted it to pass. Yeah. Yeah. Because they could sell kosher meat at a higher price because it had gone through the inspection.
+
+[54:29] So here's a story. This is in the beast section, and there's amazing pictures of all the beef cuts that are made, which are sick. But this is a story that other people have mentioned, but I'll say it. The origin of the name Porter House Steaks took place about the year 1814, which remember is in his lifetime, in the following manner. Martin Morrison was the proprietor of a long-established and well-kept porter house, in quotes, located uh and known at that period at number 327 Pearl Street in New York, near the old Walton House.
+
+[55:03] We introduced him uh in 1803, where we find he opens a porter house at number 43 Cherry Street, which became a popular resort. Um, blah blah blah. And the porter house in those days was not so devoted to tippling dram drinking in the common nest for the loafing or the manufacturing of politicians or corrupt officials as they are at the present day, but rather to accommodate the hungry and thirsty travelers, old and young bachelors, seamen, and others, with a cold lunch after the English custom of a pot of ale or porter and a bite of something. Some porter houses prepared a hot meal of one or two dishes, along with which was Morrison's, who must have been quite famous for his excellent dis dish of broiled beef steaks, which were universally called for at his place, and hence the porterhouse steak. And it just goes on and on with different um stories like this.
+
+[55:46] Uh, but I will read his uh he also uses the old term for beef of beeves. Beevs. Beeves. So he talks a lot about um uh standard animals, but then he has a section on wild animals, which I will read you uh the bobble link, which is how I got to this book and why we're talking about it. Bobble links, also called reader rice birds.
+
+[56:06] And by the way, every weird bird, like kingfishers, are in this, every weird vegetable, every weird meat. Uh, this bird, um, under the name of Bobble Link is frequently exposed for sale. This is what you don't understand. Like all of this weird stuff was available for sale in markets prior to us having uh kind of rules for safety and health and conservation, which I'm for all of that, but like you could buy anything at these markets. Uh the bobble lake is frequently exposed for sale alive or in cages in our markets, but seldom killed for the table until they are found feeding on the wild rice uh and the south under a new coat and name when they are fat and fine.
+
+[56:46] He also talks about robins, like Robin Redbreast selling them. So I had uh, oh also, I I thought Nastasia might enjoy this. White winged dug, white winged dove. It's actually white winged coot, which is I guess more of a duck, but I wanted to sing white winged. This is a very indifferent bird for the table.
+
+[57:04] Its flesh is dark colored, strong, tough, and fishy, and they feed entirely on shellfish. The young birds, however, are much better eating in season from October to April. So if you ever want to eat a wild animal, this dude tells you exactly how that stuff tastes. So, Jack, while I'm uh while I'm talking more about this, you want to look through some of the ones you've chosen to tell us about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[57:22] You have to look this book up, people. It's so good. Yeah, what do you got for me, Jack? Alright, alright, alright. So I have a quick quiz for you.
+
+[57:31] Oh, jeebus. Alright. Which of these uh these following names are a uh the are common names for a herring. Okay, alewife. So.
+
+[57:47] Moss bonker. Ooh. Whitefish, bony fish, hardhead, menhagen, or Panhagen. Manhattan is definitely a herring, right? No?
+
+[58:00] Is it Manhattan a herring? And I think uh Porgi and Bunker are not are they all? Is this one of those all? All. All.
+
+[58:07] Although I never call uh I never call a herring a whitefish, but does he include does he include Alewife? No. It's more of a Boston thing. Oh man, yeah. Moss Bonker.
+
+[58:18] Moss Bonker is my new band. Sake cured Moss Bonker. I'm gonna get Damon Harjeri Roger from Infinity Shred, who's still on tour. You can see him to write a song for us called Moss Bonker. What else you got for me, Jack?
+
+[58:28] Oh, I just had a page of the the names of the plants on this page are Mangelwertzel. Ooh. Martinia, Milkvetch, and Maskell plant. So give me, give me uh give me give me some uses and or and or uses for this stuff. Uh Maskell plant is another name for a morel.
+
+[58:45] Uh I I let's see. Pokewed is the milk vetch. You have to be very careful with poke. I mean, uh let me I got one more for you to read. Okay.
+
+[58:54] Do you see? I'll I'll I'll turn it to you, I'll let you read it. So the interesting thing about this is let's say you have let's say you're not so much with kind of rules or laws. Not so much with. Not so much with rules or laws.
+
+[59:06] Uh and you have this particular pest in your uh in your yard. You see it? Skunk. Yeah, read read us some skunk. The flesh of this most detestable animal is, I am told, when properly prepared, as good as raccoon.
+
+[59:26] I have heard of it. I've had raccoon, I don't like raccoon. We should look up what he says about raccoon. Uh, I have heard those who have eaten it say it was very sweet and savory after it had been dressed. I never saw it for sale in our markets, although I have heard of it being dressed and sold under another name.
+
+[59:40] Uh but the skins of the striped uh and black skunks are often for sale, the latter being the most valuable. That's surprising to me. Do you know what they call horse meat uh purveyors and the slaughterers of horses for meat? Well, knackers. See if you can look up raccoons, because I've had raccoons and they're terrible.
+
+[59:57] Otter. Jeez. Otter, I'm sure it's badger and muskrat. See, it's gotta be before that. Porcupine, possum, woodchuck, groundhog, wildcat.
+
+[1:00:05] Woodchuck has woodchuck taste. Great. But here's raccoon. A raccoon, read me raccoon. Uh these animals are occasionally seen in our markets for sale, both alive and dead, usually more plentiful in the fall months.
+
+[1:00:14] The full grown or old raccoon will weigh from seven to twelve pounds, the flesh of which is quite quite rank and strong. Ah, that's what we had, Nastassi. That thing was terrible. That was old. Terrible!
+
+[1:00:23] The young are better, but I think them inferior eating, and I must confess that I was not in a situation to give them a fair trial when I ate of them. I love this guy. Yeah, this guy's the best guy ever. Yeah. Best writer ever.
+
+[1:00:33] So good. All-time best food writer. He has a whole section on when and what kind of bears to eat. All I'm saying is this book is a must read. So if you have a different classic in the field, Nastasi and I are gonna do maybe Appleheads later.
+
+[1:00:47] You gotta let me know on cooking issues on the Twitter what kind of things you want to hear for classics in the field. I have uh the Bull Moose cookbook, uh, I have I have a bunch of things that we have that we can do classics in the field. Let us know what you want to hear. But for this week, this has been Cooking Issues and Classics in the Field! Yeah.
+
+[1:01:11] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com/slash Heritage. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:01:43] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:02:11] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:04] This episode is brought to you by 100 Bogart Street, a co-working building in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Need a professional place to work from? Learn more by visiting 100bogart.com. Hey, this is Hannah, HRN's program manager. It's HRN's 10th anniversary and now our summer fun drive.
+
+[0:30] So show your support for independent, revolutionary, entertaining food radio by becoming a monthly recurring donor. HRN is powered by a passionate community of thoughtful eaters, and we need each and every one of you to show your support so that we can keep bringing you your favorite food podcasts. It takes a village, and every dollar donated, every listener tuning in is essential to our continued success. So set up a donation for $10 every month. You'll show us that you want to be a part of a bright future for HRN.
+
+[1:08] And you'll get one of our brand new limited edition pizza pocket t shirts. So snag your new favorite tea and show us some love. All for the price of about two fancy lattes each month. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate today. And thank you.
+
+[1:48] For my birth week three in Bushwick Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. We got Matt in the booth who uh apparently is gonna get married soon.
+
+[1:57] Oh yeah, it's happening. Yeah, when's that? Next Friday. Next Friday? Yeah.
+
+[2:01] Where are you getting married? Newport, Rhode Island. So fancy. I didn't realize you were so fancy. Fancy man.
+
+[2:07] I'm a fancy man. Are you gonna be at the breakers? Are you gonna is everyone gonna be dressed in uh tuxedos? Are you gonna have monkey butlers? Sadly, none of those things.
+
+[2:16] Be right on Easton's Beach. Cool. Are you from Rhode Island? No, my parents have lived there for the last like half a decade, so sort of. It's nice over there.
+
+[2:24] Who's officiating? One of our best friends. Oh. Uh have you given uh him her the cooking issues guide to wedding officiance? No, I think he's gonna be alright on his own.
+
+[2:39] I was told that I made uh that I made Nastasia's friend the wedding officiant. I didn't how could I have made her cry? I've thought of the guide often. Yeah, yeah. There you go.
+
+[2:51] No. There you go. Well, anyway. Well, since uh well, uh are you gonna you're you're gone next week, right? Oh yeah.
+
+[2:57] Yeah. So if we don't uh so happy, happy wedding. Thank you. Yeah, have a good time. What are you doing?
+
+[3:02] Give him some advice, Dave. You love wedding. What's uh what's your uh what's what are you doing for the uh wine slash liquor situation? What's going on there? Uh Margarita as signature cocktail.
+
+[3:12] They tried to give me a jank recipe. I was like, no, thank you. I'll give you the recipe. Um what? Strong.
+
+[3:18] Always give someone the recipe. They'll still gonna f it up, but strong. And then uh a keg of a very good local brewery. Shout out to Gray Sale in Rhode Island. I like it a lot.
+
+[3:27] Um then I don't know. What are we doing? A bunch of wines. Red, white, rose. I don't remember what they are.
+
+[3:32] What are you doing for food? Uh buffet style, bunch of stuff. Most people went with the lobster. It's gonna be like real good. That's good.
+
+[3:40] You know what? Uh I hope they have to open it themselves. I hope there's a like a good spray. Uh, just a word of advice to anyone who ever, if you should ever hang out with me, don't sit anywhere near me if I'm eating lobster. I mean, I feel like that's the whole wedding is gonna be like that.
+
+[3:55] I think we should give everyone individual tables because they will be spraying. Yeah, I've had I've had people like get up, move in disgust, and like leave because of the general spray of lobster juice around me when I'm eating lobster. Because I just don't, if you're serving someone lobster, like that's it. Lobster. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:12] Yep. Also, I don't like crackers. I only like using my hands. I don't use any sort of device. I use only my teeth.
+
+[4:20] Teeth. I have you ever if you have a big one on the claws, I've almost broken my teeth on lobster shells, cracking open the claws. But anyway, lobster cracking, diff differ, different day, different story. Uh what was that, Nastasia? That was round one.
+
+[4:36] Round one? Yeah. Well, here's what happened. Uh, in fairness, I told Nastasia that she wasn't allowed to put her foot on the table holding the microphones and jam the table up and down anymore. So it turns out I was wrong.
+
+[4:48] When her foot is not attached to anything, the vibration level is so high. You familiar with um you familiar with the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, Galloping Gertie? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Put that video up.
+
+[4:58] Yeah, for those of you that don't know, check that out. That was uh, it's the exact, almost exact same design as the Verizano Narrows bridge, in fact, but it had a resonant frequency that the wind used to make happen to it. I think it was in the 30s. And there's videos of the wind hitting it at just the right angle, hitting the resonant frequency, and the thing is going up and down like a jump rope until it finally snaps. So it turns out Nastasia needs to keep her foot on the table because otherwise the resonant frequency is so hard that she rattles her phone out of her pocket, all kinds of crazy stuff, right?
+
+[5:27] That's a mistake. It was a mistake. What, me telling you to take your foot off the table? Yeah, yeah. Today we have half of the people we're going to have on the air with us today.
+
+[5:36] We have uh well Jeremiah Stone of uh Contra NYC uh and Wild Air and what how many ways you have also the pizza place? What else do you have now? We're uh about to open a wine shop and a wine bar. Okay, I'm gonna get into this in a second. We're going to have in a minute, um, I call him Fabulous, you know, Fabian von Howski, but I've always called him fabulous since I knew him when he was like 19 when he started coming to the French corner.
+
+[6:01] He said 18. He was 18? He said he was 17 when he came to the I think he was 18. God damn. He lied to me and said he was 21 because I had him drinking at the beginning of it.
+
+[6:10] Of course he did. Yeah. So back, so anyway, so like well known, like, you know, at the top of the food game right now. I knew these guys back when. So call in your questions, either your Jeremiah or Fabulous related questions.
+
+[6:21] Two 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Fabulous will be here in just a minute. So I knew both of these guys. I knew um Fabulous when he started coming to the French culinary student.
+
+[6:34] He came twice. Yeah. He came as a culinary student and then as a as a pastry student. But I'll wait for that for when he comes. It's his fault, by the way, people, that um the technique of blending and then center fusing stuff is called Houstino.
+
+[6:46] We'll get into that later. But at the same time, Jeremiah, uh, I think at one point was a student, but I didn't really, I didn't know you when you were a student, right? A little bit, not really. What were you there? Yeah, then we knew him as a he was running the events, yeah.
+
+[7:02] Events in the amphitheater. So the way the French Culinary Institute used to work, maybe still does, is we had like an amphitheater, and every, what was it, like Wednesday usually, or like Tuesdays, Wednesdays, in the middle of the week, they'd get very well-known chefs or interesting chefs, or anyone who would come and do what I thought were pretty awesome food demos. Yeah. We did food demos, did you know, private events, uh, we did the classes with you, Harold McGee. Yeah, right.
+
+[7:28] But I mean, we had a lot of interesting people coming through doing like weird cooking stuff. Yeah. And so it was like a great opportunity to kind of meet people, like learn new techniques, see what was going on. And so Jeremiah was was down there. And so I, you know, at one point, like we were always friendly, but you were kind of my mortal enemy because I would go F up your kitchen.
+
+[7:47] You F the place up, F the place up. You were not my more I I don't know where you're getting that from. You might have F'd up the kitchen, but I I I love you guys. We we were always friends. Yeah.
+
+[7:57] Uh oh, here's Fabulous. So uh he's he's coming in. So anyway, so like I knew these guys way back when, and then I figured they'd both do something, but I had no idea they were gonna start something together. Which is weird. No, it was weird because I actually when he first started interning for you, I didn't like him at all.
+
+[8:12] Why not? Well, he's right here. My interns were very entitled and you know, they just they they wanted to be part of the whirlwind, so he's talking shit about you. Hey fabulous, hello. So uh Jeremiah is talking crap about you.
+
+[8:29] Says when you first came to the FCI, he didn't like you because all of uh all of the interns were uh he said entitled. I mean, I didn't like him either. So then how did you end up so like did you like him before or after he had $10,000 worth of sneakers stolen from him? I still don't like him. So for those of you that don't know, Jeremiah was was is a sneakerhead.
+
+[8:53] He came to me one day and he was like, I had $10,000 worth of sneakers stole from me. I was like, who the hell owns $10,000 with a sneakers? Yeah, but you're assuming that that's $10,000 of you know, $70 sneakers. It could be like 10 shoes. You know?
+
+[9:09] Was it well what was it? It was a lot of shoes. It's probably like maybe 12 shoes. Yeah. Just very rare.
+
+[9:16] But it wasn't, it was, I don't think it was 10,000. I think it was maybe 5,000. Who did it? Oh, somebody random. Because they well, they came in, they saw they took speakers.
+
+[9:25] It can't be random. Who knows who random thief is like, man, these sneakers? No, but it's hard to explain. I mean, like, it's thieves now walk around with like cell phones and like look look up the value of crap on the internet before they steal it. Oh, only steals your good books and the good sneakers.
+
+[9:43] No, if you see that they break in and they start, they take the TV, they take all the electronic equipment and then takes the TV anymore. And then he sees a pair of. This was 10 years ago. It was Jordans, you know. Yeah, this is when this is when the biggest TV out was 32 inches.
+
+[9:56] There were no computers then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet this thief, random thief, happened to know about these uh fancy sneakers. Well, they're like, you know, everyone knows. I mean, everyone, if you steal, you steal.
+
+[10:08] You steal everything. Yeah. You know, you know what Jordans are worth, you know. Uh all right. So now you two hated each other.
+
+[10:15] And then how do you hate each other? I just I just when I first met him, I didn't like him because I didn't like any of like I I ended up liking a lot most of the interns, but it's just the when you first meet them. Well, it's like you call them in title, but how much fabulous, how much did the FCI cost at that point? A lot. Like a lot, a lot.
+
+[10:31] Yeah. Like moot like a lot. I don't know. Well, how much was it? Like 40?
+
+[10:35] Yeah, just probably shy 40 at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, this is what Nastasia never understood. We had these interns. They were real crappy.
+
+[10:42] And Nastasia, who ran the program after Mindy, uh, you know, who ran the program first uh left. Nastasia never ever, ever, ever understood that these people were not working for us, even though we were making them work. They were also paying forty thousand dollars, and this was one of the perks was that they got to be in this program. So Nastasia never kind of understood this. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:06] And that's where you're saying the sense of entitlement came from. But the fact the fact of the matter is is that they were both like they were both customers and employees, and it's a hard line to kind of write. Yeah, I I think you know, it's also especially when one was in interning with you, uh, you just got thrown into I mean, everyone was there at the time, like all the chefs who were like sort of relevant at the time were there, and you got to hang out with them and work with them. And you know, like I even with Johnny that I worked with afterwards, like me and him had a relationship prior to me working with him. So it was just a very weird situation where you just knew a lot of people, and then you know, in the in a very sort of short and like very close um place, proximity.
+
+[11:55] Yeah. So I think it was just very easy to get lost in in that, other than just working, and that's where a lot of it came, you know. I also didn't like a lot of them. Well, no, you hated everyone, and still do, really. Yeah.
+
+[12:06] I mean, the f the the the thing that was good back in the day that would like we can you can't do it anymore. Oh, you know, hey, you love weep. You just said he was. You know, we pop now owns one of the biggest clubs, and he apparently has the best stereo system in all of Southeast Asia. You know that guy at the pastry chef uh uh Nightshade is Weepop's cousin.
+
+[12:25] Wow. That's crazy. We weepop Supopi Pop. Bam, but you can call me bam. That's as I said, I started.
+
+[12:29] So this guy, he's one of the engineers who uh came up with uh Nomiku. So he worked on the original Nomiku, which was you know, whatever you think. Nomiku was was the reason that circulators are inexpensively priced now. Immersion circulators used to be like a thousand bucks. They were two thousand bucks, then they were one thousand bucks, then they were eight hundred bucks.
+
+[12:48] They're the flat screen TV of the culinary world. Yeah, and then Weepop was like, why is it cost that much? He started doing the Nomiku, and then as soon as Nomiku hit, everything was 400 bucks, and now it's like 200 bucks. You know what I mean? So it's like I think I think people don't give the the the Supapipot enough credit for that.
+
+[13:05] But remember, like he he shortened his name from Weepop Soup to Weepot Soupipot because he couldn't fit the name on his on his chef's whites at the French Culinary Institute, and he came up I thought it just continued underneath his armpit. Yeah, well, that he was like, he was like, just call me Bam, and we're like, no. What was his brother's name? I forget. Oh, yeah, his brother's name was like uh it was even better.
+
+[13:30] But he came in and we're all like, hey, and then we're like, hey, uh, you tie? And he's like, how'd you guess? We're like, what? You know what I mean? Like, there's 17 characters like Weepop.
+
+[13:39] Weepop's good business. Like Weepop Chow. Yeah. Uh Gotterball. No, Gutterball, no.
+
+[13:44] Gutterball I hated. Well, who was Gutterball? Ross? Oh, yeah, I like Rops. Yeah.
+
+[13:49] No, you know, Ross was Yahtzee. Oh, Rats was Yahtzee. Anyway, for those of you who don't know, all of the interns, so we had this program at the French Culinary Institute called the Tech Program, which for a long time was housed in a closet in the basement of the amphitheater. And then we when Nastasia started working, we moved up in the world, literally to the fourth floor and were put into a garbage closet. A garbage closet.
+
+[14:09] Well, no, I then we we ran out of that uh hall. Like the the we're, you know, outside of the Yeah, but he's saying that used to be a garbage closet. Yeah, that was garbage. That was a garbage. They didn't when we moved into the closet.
+
+[14:21] Oh yeah, you were in the hallway. We were in the hallway. Yeah, yeah. When we moved in, they didn't bother cleaning. So literally there was garbage dumpsters in there, and and the students would just hurl, or the, you know, the also the staff would just hurl bags of garbage into the dumpsters.
+
+[14:37] And so if you've ever been in a dumpster room, there's like that line of garbage at the at the level of the dumpster where there's like that spray of garbage. It's like you ever like on a griddle, you know when a griddle's not protected and you can see like the pancake line from when pancakes are flipped, you can see that line of grease and pancake splatter on the wall. So it was like that in the garbage room at the at the toss level, and no one ever cleaned it. Well, and then people weren't informed that it wasn't the garbage anymore. So they kept on putting garbage in.
+
+[15:08] Or they'd have an event and they would just shove every chair on the floor into our room. But what'd you do? So like I just got this is where like okay, this people, this is where I started becoming impatient. I used to be no seriously, my wife even asked my wife. I used to be a completely patient person because I worked with myself by myself for myself.
+
+[15:29] Like when I worked for the lawyers, I did my own job. I didn't like no one, I didn't have to work with anyone. I just did my job. I went home. So like everything was very mellow.
+
+[15:38] As soon as I had to start like interacting with people, that's when I lost all my patience. Like I think I had a finite amount of patience, and it was just never tapped. And now I'm just at zero all the time. I mean at 100, I guess, at the boiling point. So like yeah, I used to just walk in and I would just pick up the chairs and just throw them down the hallway.
+
+[15:53] Bah, bah, bah, bah throw them down the hallway. Because I'm like This is no exaggeration. Yeah, I'm like, if they have like so little. First of all, when I worked started working for the French culinary, they said they were gonna build me a lab, right? And it went from build me a lab to maybe we'll fire you.
+
+[16:10] Maybe you can live in the trash room. Maybe, well, they didn't start with the trash room. They started with a cubicle. Then they're like, okay, okay, you're too messy to be in a cubicle. Remember when they were like, you need to know what you do every day, and then you just wrote on the forum OTB.
+
+[16:25] What's OTV stand for again? OTV office, yeah, off off trap off-track betting. Yeah, yeah, OTV. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm famously.
+
+[16:33] This is by the way, how Nastasi and I got into Appleheads. I got into another argument with uh a partner/slash employer who was asking me a bunch of garbage that made no sense. Yeah. And I'm like, you guys can't. Well we'll save it for when we do Applehead dolls.
+
+[16:47] No, no, no, just say it now. We can bring it up again. What's Applehead? Applehead. Yeah, you guys can't work together in other things.
+
+[16:55] This is when we were starting Booker and Dax. We're starting, yeah. So like they're like, you and Nastasia can't start your own business together. And this is when we were doing Booker and Dax. And by the way, at that time, Nastasia, they weren't gonna give Nastasia even ownership in Booker and Dax.
+
+[17:08] So, like, let's wait and see. This is like, you know what I mean? Let's wait and see. So I was like, God damn it. I was like, if Nastancy and I want to go make Appleheads dolls together, we want to start an Applehead business, you're not gonna stop me.
+
+[17:22] That's that's pretty much exactly how that happened. And it's pretty much exactly what I said. Yeah. Was this was this uh Chinatown Times? Yes.
+
+[17:32] This no, this is before Chinatown Times. This is when we used we also, Booker and Dax's first headquarters was in the back of Milk Bar Commissary. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:40] Remember that, people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, Tozy hated us because we were such a mess. Every time you walk in there, all the milk bar people.
+
+[17:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would kill you. Yeah, yeah, they tried. They tried very much. Turns out, uh, I mean, probably at my age now, I'm probably easy to kill, but back then I was much more difficult to kill.
+
+[17:59] Yeah, but who's laughing now? Who's the multi-million dollar business? Booker and Dax, right? This episode was brought to you by 100 Bogart, a new building in Bushwick, Brooklyn, with meeting and event spaces available for on-demand booking. Looking for the next perfect outdoor location for your next gathering?
+
+[18:28] Host your next event at 100 Bogart's Impressive Rooftop, just steps away from the Morgan L stop. It's one of the largest and tallest roof spaces in Bushwick, boasting 360 degree views of Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens. 100 Bogart's rooftop is available for your next networking event, fundraiser, special performance, or photo shoot. There's approximately 5,000 square feet. Ample space for up to 100 guests.
+
+[18:57] For more information on hosting an event at 100 Bogart's rooftop, email info at 100Bogart.com. Or call 718-362-3539. And then I had to throw it all away when I got rid of my house. I was like, saw this stuff that I had like carried around for years, like little pieces of like weird equipment that I've carried around for years. Finally got rid of.
+
+[19:20] You know what I did find the other day? And uh by the way, before uh Jeremiah and Fabulous opened Contra Wild Air, they came to uh I used to have we used to have a lab on 54 Eldritch, which was by the way, is is the ground spitting capital of the world, as far as I know. So, like we tried to video, we tried to do a video when we were gonna sell the Sears all, and we were trying to do a video in our in our lab, in our lab. And the person who was micing us could not get a clean sound take without uh a Loogie being hawked in the background. In fact, for years before Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink, Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink is now my generalized ringtone.
+
+[20:03] Him yelling in pain as he knuckles into the puffing gun the first time he ever tried to hit it is is my ringtone. But before that, it used to be it used to be from the Sears All shoot, like a giant like right outside of our thing. And so we would just stand out there, and like you couldn't, like literally you couldn't do a 20-second take without a Loogie Hawk. And then when you walk, oh, I saw Coconut Feet the other day. I was with you.
+
+[20:29] No, you're not saying that. Yeah, yeah, you remember coconut feet? Yeah, of course. So there was a guy he worked at the restaurant next door. He used well, he'd stand, he would sit outside on a lawn chair peeling in front of his restaurant, peeling his feet onto the ground.
+
+[20:43] It used to like make a little pile of shredded coconut on the ground, and so we always called him coconut feet. That was a veg like a vegetable peeler. Yeah. Yeah, it was like a like a Swiss, like a coonricon Swiss peel. Like an orange one.
+
+[20:58] And then people were like, I remember if I guess somebody don't know many nameless was like, you guys have it so easy. You guys, you know, all the resources you guys have. Meanwhile, like Loogie and Coconut feet. The reason literally we don't have a lab anymore is because we didn't have the money to fix the roll-up gate. And the roll-up gate was so broken that Nastasia one day, she yelled at me.
+
+[21:20] So the her word for like the like the general like female stuff is modka. Everything. Everything down there is modka. You're gonna break my modka, you guys. Baby making area.
+
+[21:33] And capacity and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so like one day I'm like, I was like, I don't need to be there for you to open the office. You can just open the office, you freaking self, God! Because like I was doing something else, and I wanted and Nastasi would not come in to work unless she knew I was already gonna be there.
+
+[21:50] She would not come to work unless she knew I was already gonna be there. That's that place was scary. So then literally she had someone open it, and then she stood there hanging on it, hanging on it like a gymnast or like a monkey, like waiting for me to show up, and like, there's aren't you want? You want me to break my matka? And we had, and then we had some guy quote unquote fix it.
+
+[22:13] All they did was pump eight quarts of lith grease into it, so that every time we touched the door from then on out, like we were coated in grease. Stinky, stinky lith grease. And Nastas and I were like, the hell with it, we're out of here. And literally, that's how we lost the lab. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:30] Such a beautiful space. Anyway, so fabulous before he opened Contra worked there for us. Downstairs with the Jesus poster. Oh my god, downstairs. So old school New York, we were talking to the landlord, and we're like, Can we rent something downstairs?
+
+[22:44] He's like, What do you want it for? And I was like, we need to store some stuff. He's like, Oh, okay. I thought you were gonna uh like open another illegal gambling joint in the basement because this entire block was illegal gambling joints and like, you know, coconut feet people. So like we we went in, we went downstairs, and in the basement or for our storage room, was just a room.
+
+[23:07] A room with nine locks, a mattress, uh, the the print of a refrigerator. You know how refrigerators who've been there for a million years and there's no cleaning, they have the line where the coils are on the back of the wall, a picture of Jesus, a mirror on the ceiling, and then a bathroom with just a hose. And that's it. And the locks were on the outside only. The locks were only on the outside.
+
+[23:31] You have to walk past that room to get to the other room where you kept all your stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing. It was an amazing place. Uh I miss it.
+
+[23:40] Uh so then anyway, but when I came across and you were there for this fabulous, the very, very, very first Sears All that we ever made, the round one. I had to. Well, you remember the first one was at FCA when you were in Thanksgiving. Shoot it through a Sheenwall. You had No, you made the shower, you made the shower head version at FCI right before.
+
+[24:00] Yeah. Oh, yeah, right before I left. But remember how people got the red torch. Well, I have the I should say I have the very first uh contained prototype that wasn't like shower head. Remember we used to burn the hell out of ourselves with those first prototypes that weren't contained?
+
+[24:12] Yeah. That's how we figured it out. We're like trying to shoot it through this mesh, and then our knuckles would catch on fire, and we're like, maybe we should enclose it. You know what I mean? Oh, by the way, uh Dax says to me a couple weeks ago, he's like, Dad, how come you don't know how to use Instagram or the internet?
+
+[24:29] I'm like, because I don't care. You know what he's like, someone on Instagram said that Dave Chang invented the Sears all and you didn't. Oh my god. And I was like, I was like, I love Dave, but that's just not the case. What?
+
+[24:40] This is what I was telling you last night. You don't know. Nastasia Lopez says I'm not allowed to like a post that she puts up. No. He'll like to be a little bit more.
+
+[24:44] She's like, it seems robotic. And I said, We're close enough where I don't care that you like a story. It seems But if I like your story, doesn't that help other people see your story? No. No, man, that's not a good idea.
+
+[24:58] Yeah, in other words. It does work like that. That's not true, Jeremiah. If he's a good thing. I trust Jeremiah's skills over your skills, Nastasia.
+
+[25:06] But what does he do? Like say I like it. He'll DM me. I like DM. Yeah, that doesn't help anyway.
+
+[25:12] Hit the like button. So it's not a good thing. But there's no like button for the story. You press on it and it puts a heart on it. You press on it and it puts a heart on it.
+
+[25:19] No, but you're just sending her the heart. Yeah. I don't care about this stuff. So, you guys is opening a wine store. How are you getting around the laws here?
+
+[25:27] What laws? Where we're currently navigating all of them. Well you have to have a separate owner for the wine store, technically, right? A separate LLC. Yeah, well, so we have a wine shop and a wine bar opening next to each other, but they're we're allowed to as as um liquor license owners.
+
+[25:42] Um we have one off-premise license, which is the shop, and then you can you can only if you have an on-premise, which is what you have in a restaurant, you can only have one off-premise. I didn't know you could have any. So you could have a hundred restaurants in one shop. I didn't know you were allowed any. If you're importing, you can't.
+
+[25:57] But if you're only if you have a sort of let's say a restaurant, you can. Really? You can have one, yeah. And then the problem is when you're bringing alcohol in, you can't have uh importer and also uh like a retail shop. Right.
+
+[26:15] Well, you c also can't technically have a grocery store and a wine store. Yeah, because they yeah, they split beer and grocery as one category. This is this is a super old law to basically make it fair for the people who are in, you know, so beer and grocery is allowed to be sold together and wine has to be sold separately. So you can't This is New York people by the way. We can't sell a piece of cheese in the wine shop.
+
+[26:37] Yeah, no beer, no space. And why Whole Foods started a wine store on 59th Street and they couldn't because it has to be separate buildings, like separate structures, all sorts of you can't just have like a a different entrance. It needs to be like a different you need like demising walls. And this law clearly, this law clearly uh, you know, is important because no one in California like can get good wine at all. Where you can buy wine like anywhere.
+
+[27:12] Yeah, well in California you can have a restaurant and sell wine there at in the same space. So why are we here? Just crazy. Because uh we're not we're not gonna sink into the to the ocean, right? Have you like it's like that's never gonna people have been saying that since I'm a I'm a kid.
+
+[27:28] That it's gonna sink off, fly off into the ocean. That was the whole thing anyone said. Well, what'd you bring, Jeremiah? Oh, so talk about the wine store. When's this gonna open?
+
+[27:37] Uh we're gonna open in September. Now you guys were early on the is that a is that like a like a real open in September, or that's a yeah, yeah, yeah. We hope. It's not yeah. You're jinxing yourself, is what I'm saying.
+
+[27:49] Yeah. It's gonna open before next September. Yeah. All right, so listen. Uh those of you that don't know, uh, I don't know if maybe you've been under a rock or you haven't been paying attention.
+
+[28:03] Uh you guys have made how long ago do you open Contra? Like four years, three years? Six years ago. What? Yeah.
+
+[28:09] What? Six years ago. What? Yes. What?
+
+[28:14] Oh my God, does time accelerate? Yeah. Oh my God. Six years ago? 2013, yeah.
+
+[28:20] Jeez, Louise. Oh my God. So anyway, six years. What about Wildair? Four years ago.
+
+[28:26] Wild air is the four-year-old, yeah. Alright. So for those of you that don't know, over the past six years, uh Jeremiah and Fabulous have become kind of huge powerhouses in the food world. They're everywhere, they're all over the place. But I did.
+
+[28:45] No, you we I I mean we often talk about this, but you I mean you're the the reason why the restaurants exist is is because of you because we met basically through you. Oh well, I appreciate that. And they uh they have a cookbook out. How's that doing? It's doing great.
+
+[29:00] Uh we're in our second pressing. It's called A Very Serious Cookbook. Um and uh it's on sale now. Yeah? On the on the Amazon.
+
+[29:10] So anyway, so a drone will bring it to you. So six years ago, uh Jeremiah and Fabulous, when they first opened, they were the earliest people that were playing at the level that they were playing at in New York City that I'm aware of that was a food place. Food place, food that uh food food food library. You see uh Metalocalypse? Anyway, uh food library.
+
+[29:34] They they're the first place I know of at that level of food that was very dedicated to natural wines. Is that true? I mean that's my impression, but is that true? In New York, yeah. Yeah, I mean, uh I would I would give credit to um um two of our good friends, um Arno Earhart and and Jorge Riera, who uh who were uh running three sixty in Red Hook um in 04, which um was like a really simple menu.
+
+[29:59] They did like a twenty-five dollar set menu, just like simple kind of fresh food, great ingredients and just uh and they um that was really one of the and and also EC from Laurence Yard, like much more bistro driven. Um but I would say in Manhattan we were like there was not a tasting menu, not a restaurant that was you know, trying to do something that was elevated that had an entire list that was natural, what we what we classify as natural wine, even though I mean yeah it's a stupid name. And at the time I made fun of you like relentlessly. Yeah, everyone did. I mean you you don't now.
+
+[30:36] Yeah, as they'll do. But I mean, and so I think we've gone like kind of full circle with the n like all like I was talking to Jack Shram, uh, you know, the our head bartender who is a also a huge proponent of uh the natural wines and uh in fact his ex-girlfriend used to work for you for a long time. Yeah, my Mackenzie just um the the thing is that I think even like the the higher the like the old school sommelier's have kind of come around somewhat to your point of view, right? Well I just think that we've gotten to the point where if you just need to have like some of these wines on your list for younger people to relate to them. Yeah, but what is it?
+
+[31:17] I don't get it. I honestly I like it's it's it's I don't understand how it's happened. Here's what I think, and you tell me why I'm wrong. Because I'm sure I am. It's like you have a like the old school like to p to play the old school sommelier game, right?
+
+[31:30] It's all it's only about like super expensives. It's about can I get this rare super expensive thing, right? Yeah. There's also what do you mean by old school? So that's like Jean George tw tw 20 years ago.
+
+[31:39] So what I'm saying is like No, like the th there's there's a generation between now and that. Right, but like a lot of that generation still like pe so people like in their late 40s for my age, right? Like late 40s, like these people still grew up Well, it's a luxury thing. If it's pricey, that must be good. Well, but there's also like there's certain things that are recognized as the top of their of their game.
+
+[32:03] Like you, you know, have like how like how much of the you know the old growths have you had, like this year, that year, etc. etc. Some kind of shoreship of like some lesser known things, but by and large, the the people out spending money, if they were gonna drop money, they drop money on something that was known, had a certain kind of pedigree, and it was kind of about that. You know what I mean? Well, people yeah, people don't want to spend money on something that they can't um you know that they they can't fully predict or you know, there's if there's not very little consistency or if there's no understanding of exactly what you know they're gonna experience.
+
+[32:41] Because you're everything is everything is so dialed in, you know, because when you're talking about conventional wines, so much so much of the wine is about what like what you're learning is through, you know, I know what like this year should take. That's why they c that's why those guys can b you know, they advance sums and when you do your masters, they can blind stuff, they can you know that's why they study that because it's something that you can study, it's something tangible that you can study and learn certain years, certain regions, certain grapes have a certain profile. But they don't you know they don't always really appreciate the wines that are simply made because this is really how people used to make wine, but it's kind of like when you're making wine and well you used to make wine when? Hundreds of years ago. Hundreds of years ago.
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+[33:21] Oh, yeah. Oh, oh yeah. By the way, it's like, you know, I mean, I'm pretty sure m you ever had wine on my honeymoon. You're talking like Greece or something. I was in Italy.
+
+[33:31] Okay. I pulled over to the side of the road, and this lady was like, you know, try my wine. Yeah, not everyone does it well. And it was garbage. Garbage.
+
+[33:43] And by the way, I was like very young guy. Like, we were like, we were like drinking prosecco like it was soda pop. Alright, I mean, like, I'm not saying I was like, I need to be fancy, but even I. Yeah, no, I mean, but there's no one saying that everyone that makes wine just because they're doing it, you know, at home and it that is done right. I make my I make my cars the way we made them hundreds of years ago.
+
+[34:06] Not at all. You do you build everything yourself. So not even if I'm bad at it, yeah. But I know, but I I mean it's I mean, it's less about it's not like oh we've we've come up with all these ways to improve things. It's just we've come up with ways to this is I mean, making wine is one of the oldest, you know, better.
+
+[34:23] Even conventional is old. Yeah. I mean, but like making wine conventionally, like, it's it's brought it to a place where there's, you know, it it's dialed it in. Which I don't I don't necessarily think is guy in front of me eating pizza with a knife and fork. What country are these people from?
+
+[34:41] Are they speaking English? Can you lip read? Yeah, they're speaking English. What the hell? No, no.
+
+[34:46] What's worse? Eating a pizza with a knife and fork or eating crust end first? What's worse? Crust end first or knife and fork? Knife and fork, I'd say.
+
+[34:54] Knife and fork worse than crust and first? Yeah, why would you? No, crust and first is the worst thing ever. Really? Yeah.
+
+[35:00] So one of the Dax's dirtbag buddies. Like, we had a birthday party, and we took a picture and sent the big picture to Miley, uh, my sister-in-law, who runs the Food Network magazine, and she says nothing but this. WTF, crust first, and then we like zoomed in on the picture, and like of all these kids there, she noticed that this one kid was eating crust first, and I was like, oh yeah, he can't come back to my house. Yeah, that's just like uh there's no sense to it. Why?
+
+[35:27] Yeah, why do you eat the handle? Yeah, yeah. That's crazy. You know what I mean? You've just eaten the handle.
+
+[35:33] It's like cooking with a pan and you grab the house. You know what I also, you know what I don't like? I don't like when there's no oil so that I can oil the crust at the end and eat it like it's bread. I like to oil the crust at the end. Like a little olive oil.
+
+[35:44] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so but uh the the middle generation you're talking about, I think is like the the Parker backlash, right? The people, so like the older generation like maybe like Paul Greco and Joey Campanelli, and like you know, even Joey's uh has a natural wine mark. No, that's what I'm saying. No, but they're they're more, you know, like I I think that they're they had they took an interest to um you know, more affordable wines, new world.
+
+[36:06] Yeah, but they're not affordable. That's the joke. They're not affordable. A little bit more. More than a first growth, but they're not affordable.
+
+[36:12] Like in other words, like, here's here's what I don't get, right? It's like I can go out and for $20, I can get a really good bottle of conventional wine, or I can get a lower end crapshoot. Right? That to me, like that's the that's the issue. What's the lower end crapshoot?
+
+[36:30] What do you think? Like if you're going like what natural wines are like less than 20? Most. Come on. Yeah.
+
+[36:36] At stores? Yes. No. Yes, they're all 20. Yeah.
+
+[36:38] 20. And then uh it's like a how much this one cost? This would be at a store, this would be 33, 32. That's what I'm saying. If you told me to I'd bring a bunch of $20 wines, if but's taste this.
+
+[36:52] What have we got to do? So this is why I was saying, okay, there's a there's a complete misconception that natural wine the overall cost of natural wine tends to be more expensive, but I would say more expensive than the cheap because you have such a range, but we're talking about dollars, like a couple bucks here. Everything is in that you know 20 to 35 dollar range. There's not a lot of wine that you're gonna spend $50, like a lot of natural wine that you're gonna spend $50 on. Well, I thought I don't I don't think it has anything to do with the price.
+
+[37:22] I think well like wine is one of those things where if you if if you like wine, you're gonna buy expensive wine regardless. I just think that these winemakers are just in in line with what the food world is becoming, you know. And I think a lot of it it's you know, when when we work with you, the food just like the tendency was to be like modern and like use technology and do all these things to make the product better. And then that turned, and you know, now it's all about farming where your vegetables come from, where everything comes from, you know. But everyone who was good at anything back in the day cared about that stuff too.
+
+[38:01] Yeah, but I think it was a little I think it was a little less. They cared about they cared about products being good, but not necessarily like seeing outside of, you know, now there's I mean I that's just not the you know that's not the case. Back then was when that's back when uh I mean you remember was doing all of his. Andre Soldner used to have to he makes his t-that with white bread, you know. Andre Soldner, though, is like eight generations before any of us.
+
+[38:25] He opened freaking Lutes in 1962 or so. So what yeah is it's I mean, I think the technology stuff wasn't happening. Andre Soldner didn't have a vacuum machine. And when I asked Andre Soltner why he never had a vacuum machine, he's like, I buy fresh every day, I did not need a vacuum. And I was like, but I think it was like, you know.
+
+[38:42] Very few people had the the economical capacity to run a restaurant that could be technological at some degree and also care about the produce they were bringing in. But no, but although the people who were technological were all spending ridiculous amounts of money on their food, all buying from like local, all stuff. I mean, look at where like Wiley used to buy his fish from. Look at the food cost of someone like crazy food cost with someone like uh Librant back in the day, who was running like over 50% food cost because he was shipping in this very specific thing from a very specific production of the state. I just think that's a false argument.
+
+[39:15] No, no, that's what I was talking about like the quality was always there, but I think now it's more important to be close to it than you know, flying fish from Japan, like manipulation. We talk to fishermen who fish, you know, we who have fish who it's domestic and it's close, and we can have an interaction with it. Where like we know, you know, it's not about your NOMA stuff fabulous also with the Noma for a while. No, I'm not building my nose off, but you know, at the restaurant we asked the fisherman, hey, like what's the best we can do? You forage for mercury in the Hudson?
+
+[39:47] Yes. And instead of uh, you know, getting halibut every week for the last five years. You know, I think there is a difference, and I think with these winemakers, that's the same difference. You know, these people become available to you. You can talk to them.
+
+[40:02] You have the information of what's happening as opposed to, you know, just buying wine from France, not ever talking to the winemaker, not knowing who picked the grapes, not knowing how the grapes were picked, not knowing all of this stuff. I mean, but I mean, look, I don't deal with the wine buyer, but I know even the big spirits, like the actual makers come and talk to you when you own a place. I mean, it's not like for the average person, the average person's not gonna know anyone. No, because he're just going to a store. And the average chef who's interested in wine, average bar owner or somebody can know all of the people that make all the stuff at every level.
+
+[40:29] That's just the truth in the industry. It's just what I think is Can or cannot. Can they that's not true? It is a hundred percent true. With liquor, you mean?
+
+[40:44] With liquor. Oh, with liquor. And and uh uh of like some like a lot of the wine buyers, a lot of the wine importers who do wine and liquor, they make their they make the wine people available too. You know what I mean? So like Yeah, but there's a that's a there's a big difference.
+
+[40:58] I mean, what it depends if you're talking about even if you're talking to somebody who is part of the family, it's very different how much they actually are involved with the wine making or how much they really know. These they're you know, you're gonna dealing with people who end up becoming salespeople, even though they're some extension of the family. They're the ones who travel, talk about these big wine houses because that's what they do. But if you're talking about understanding the true process of growing the grapes to making the wine, and the people that actually do that, that is you rarely ever see that on that level of the really high and expensive wines because they don't have you know an interest or time to go and talk to a small restaurant, you know, maybe like a really expensive, maybe like a place like Le Bernadette, they might host or Danielle, they might host a really special event that brings, you know, maybe a winemaker out from Burgundy or whatever, but you don't really have that access as like a restaurant on the Lower East Side, you know. Oh that oh, we're the scrappy folks from the Low East or whatever, or like in Kansas City or in LA or you know, or anywhere.
+
+[41:59] Toronto we're just too scrappy little dudes from the Lower East Side. But the um you know what I think it is, you're gonna disagree. I think it really is is that it gives you like a unique point of difference. Like the old world was knowable, unattainable because of price and exclusivity, but knowable. And this new world is unknowable because it's so big.
+
+[42:19] We've gone through we're at the other spectrum now where it's just you know, there's some people who respect it and who sell these wines because that's what they believe in. And there's also the part of like it's just trendy. You know, everything now, people now are so visual. Like you said, you know, Instagram is such a irrelevant tool for marketing. It's like people, you know, someone from Bonapet or someone from an important magazine or a celebrity, they post a photo of you know, the labels of these so-called natural wines are so much more enticing than your old school bolo wine.
+
+[42:52] So if someone puts it up and they're like, This wine is so cool, the label's cool, and everyone's just okay, cool. You know, there's like a really famous uh winemaker from Austria, Guragau, and he has these labels with like faces of families. And like you see it everywhere. Everyone posts about it all the time. And that's like, you know, everyone.
+
+[43:10] I hate that stuff. Don't you hate it? Everyone knows those wines. My mom knows those wines, my girlfriend knows those wines. What do you think?
+
+[43:15] You're good at Instagram. What do you think about this insta Instagram stuff ability of of the I mean there's things I hate about it. There's things that I mean it's good for business. Are useful, yeah. I mean, yeah, you know, you just before you had to deal with media to put your thoughts out there.
+
+[43:30] And like you it was a distillation of what you believed in that someone listened to what you believed in and then they wrote whatever they wanted, and now you can just share your point of view, just how it is to everyone that follows you or people who don't follow you. Right. So by the way, what are we drinking? Do you like this? I I didn't like the first sip, but I like it now, and my stepfather would hate it.
+
+[43:53] So specifically. My stepfather would hate it. My stepfather, by the way, my stepfather, like to he's an old school drinker. He's got a he's got a case of uh 85 DRC in his cellar that he bought as a future. You know what I mean?
+
+[44:07] So it's like that's the kind of like drinker he is. He's into like he has some of that. He yelled at my mom for a he ruined Christmas one year because my mom bought him a case of 85 DRC, which is Romane Conti, Latash Rieschborg, all that stuff. A case as futures. She spent like I think a couple hundred bucks on it at the time, in like 1986, I guess, when the futures were released for the 85 year.
+
+[44:32] And my stepfather ruined Christmas, yelled at her the entire time for spending that much money on that wine. The single bottle of Romanet Conte that he like that from that is now worth $25,000 on auction. You know what I mean? And he hasn't drink it, he can't drink it. He doesn't know what he's gonna do with it.
+
+[44:48] It's undrinkable because he's like, I can't drink $25,000, but I can't sell it either because I've never had it. So anyway, so that but he's into good value uh for traditional style stuff. He tends towards he tends towards he buys me stuff I like, which is like Barolos, Namrones and stuff like that, but you know, he tends towards like you know, uh Chat and Ufa and whatever. Anyway, uh he likes to be like you like big wines, you like it. Uh look, I I grew up, I started drinking before I I I started drinking right when uh Robert Parker, who's now retired, became popular.
+
+[45:22] So I like I like that. I also enjoy like the giant ridiculous American wines like Turley and like all that stuff, but I also like austere wines. You know, I like I I like a range of things. From Austria? Yeah, Austeria, it's my favorite.
+
+[45:38] It's like yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh so we're drinking um Matassa from our good friend Tom Lube. Uh he's in Prepignon, just like in the in the south of France in uh the Landelac Russian. Um this is I think it's um Macabo, Vignier, uh Mousque de Alexandre and Mousque de Blanc.
+
+[46:01] So it's cloudy, fine. It's it's a lot of oxygen is hit because it's acetic and oxidized. The acidity I mean there's a little bit of VA in there, which I think is blowing off right now because that's and you you were kind of not feeling that in the first sip, but um so that's volatile acid acidity for all you folks out there. AKA oxygen was touching the wine. It's like like um like a Wu-Tang um Wu-Tang wrapper.
+
+[46:29] A K A B A K A Volacity. Um feeding it. But I think that I mean I think this is I thought it like this is two thousand eighteen, and I think you would have liked seven seventeen was a little bit cleaner, and I was not expecting it to be this wild. Uh because I told she Nastasia asked me if I was gonna bring something funky to kind of like show and I was like, No, I was gonna bring something like more mainstream. I mean the thing about uh like okay, so fair notice I don't drink a lot of like if I if I want vinegar, I'll drink vinegar.
+
+[47:01] You know what I mean? Like come a lot of kombuches, like I'm not like I don't like I don't know. I don't like acidity in here then. I mean that's not a that's not I there's other acidity. I don't like I don't like Basque cider very much.
+
+[47:11] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's not it's not that it's bad, but like there's a reason they have to pour it from like a five-story building for you to be able to drink it. Yeah. And um, but the good thing about that is is that after the first couple of sips it does blow off, but also you acclimatize your palate to it, and then you're f you're fine with it.
+
+[47:27] You know what I mean? So like if that's meant to be the thing, that's meant to be the thing, and I'm good with it. I enjoy drinking, I'm enjoying drinking this wine. Yeah, I don't think that this is a thing. This is a characteristic of all natural wine.
+
+[47:37] But there's also misconception where people who tend not to drink natural, not quote unquote on natural wines, think that everyone who drinks natural wines think that all natural wines are good. Which is not true. Yeah, you know, even that even you know winemakers, you like you'll buy a bottle of wine and it'll be amazing, and then you'll buy another bottle of wine and it'll be absolutely undrinkable. And a lot of it has to do with it is it is so much more volatile than the conventional because conventional wines have even natural wines have things put into it, but not as much as the conventional wine. Well, nothing, just a little bit of self, a little bit of SO2, that's it.
+
+[48:14] I mean, but so this wine has uh a small amount of SO2. I mean, this year I don't know if he did. Um I know in the past he has with with um this cuvet, but sometimes you know you kind of decide what you're gonna do. It's but it's on such a minuscule level. Um but I don't think it's like it's not like oh if you like natural wine, you you're like I like f wines.
+
+[48:34] That's not really show. Oh I like funky wines. Yeah, yeah. That's not that's what you meant. That's not that's not the point.
+
+[48:41] It's you know, there's there's plenty of wines that I could taste you on that you wouldn't know what it was conventional. I mean, like as the geezer in the room, it's what's hilarious. So two chefs, I happen to know you personally, so it's not like what me. Oh so like oh for sure. Like when Nastassi is the frat boy in the group.
+
+[48:59] Did you know this? Dave can only have one frat boyfriend. Yeah, I only have one frat boyfriend, it's Nastasia. Yeah. Uh dude.
+
+[49:07] Oh my god. Oh my god. She's like, anyway, like definitely if she sits on your coat, she's gonna be she's gonna be tootin' on it. She's a super frat point. Anyway.
+
+[49:17] She handed someone, a friend of ours, she handed, handed. It's like I'm leaving. Yeah. I was sitting on his coat. Sitting on his coat.
+
+[49:24] Why? Who knows? I don't know why she didn't pick it up to put it on the back of the chair, but she's like, I tooted on this multiple times. And then hands it to him. I'm like, this is why you're a frat boy.
+
+[49:33] So but as a chef, right? Here's the here's the thing I find interesting about it is like all the people I know who as cooks are all about consistency a hundred percent of the time. Are excuse me. God's choking me. Uh are all about like wines that like show this difference as agricultural product from from year to year, from thing to thing.
+
+[49:56] So it's like they're very non-interventionist in their wines, other than kind of like this hand of the maker kind of a thing. And yet in the kitchen are all about control. No, but I mean, I think something can attest, I'm I would rather have like uh well, eating and cooking. Consistency is important, but you know, there's certain things I find important to be consistent. Other things I like the nuances of it being different.
+
+[50:21] And I don't like that's why we you know we cook every excuse me, I just burped on. Uh I'm the frat boy now. We you know, uh when we cook and when we enjoy eating something, I like that you know, something might be, you know, when it when it feels like it's done by hand and it feels like you know it it's not a machine with a timer and somebody that you know is is doesn't maybe necessarily have those those intuitive skills to to prepare something without those things. So I mean, yeah, can you don't want to be like, oh we're we we strive to be inconsistent, but I but I'd rather like you know, we're cooking, you know, we're cooking each piece of fish you know just in and out of an an oven so it it it's it you know one person might have a slightly different like we're not cutting each one with like a mold like a ring mold and and making a torch on so it all cooks perfectly I think you So you're saying that like I might get a bad piece of fish? No you're gonna have a different you have a different piece of fish from somebody who ate the day before or who's eating at six and you're eating at eight but I mean hopefully it's all good.
+
+[51:27] It's like Fabulous is giving you a look like he's gonna chop your head off not at all I just I think it's you know I it's somewhat true I you know I I spent like a lot of time in in those restaurants that everything even I mean you mentioned Noma but Noma was the same you know they're like even to a a bigger degree because you were picking herbs and like herbs are like you know no unless you work in a lab herbs are just gonna look different all the time. But you have to pick the herbs that look the same. Yeah and it's it's crazy you know and I think you just spend so much time in places that like that that you you crave the chaos a little bit. You know you try to control as much as you can but there's also aspects of just the uncertainty that are quite appealing. You guys still make the squid at while there no we well we do soft shell crab in the summer.
+
+[52:21] Do we use that same battery talk about your super crocante uh fried s uh fried batter for the squid oil it's gluten freak gluten free for the new generation. Yeah, yeah, give it to me. It's good though. Yeah, we just we're we but it's crunchy, but not super hard. I hate everyone who mistakes hard for crunchy.
+
+[52:39] You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, it it's uh corn and uh Which is weird because I normally don't like cornmeal batters. Well, it's not like uh it's corn and potato. You are I'm just potato.
+
+[52:50] Uh Dave, we have five minutes. What? Into your books. Hold on, wait, first like I gotta tell you. So are you willing to give out the the recipe?
+
+[52:58] I like potato starch because it swells like a mother. It is buy the book. Buy the book. That's great. There's squid, and I guess now they're they're saushed crab delicious.
+
+[53:06] You don't like this recipe? I do, yeah. It's a good recipe. Yeah. I'm just thinking my mind works.
+
+[53:11] Oh, if the recipe in the book is the same as the rest of the book. I'm just kidding. It does fast. You know that chefs always buy a lot of DMs about recipes. Well, chef, like uh someone who's an actual professional chef is different from like they have to take something that they make in a restaurant, which is entirely different from how you're gonna be able to do it.
+
+[53:25] Well, you know, when you make something a recipe that's very specific and it works. But then you give it to someone else and they just mess it up. Right, because they're not with you. And like I'm like, I don't know what to say, you know? Like this.
+
+[53:46] And she has to look at the recipe every time. It's on an index card. It's the same one she's had. It's like brown. And she gave she photocopied that and gave it to a family friend, and they just it just was a mess.
+
+[53:58] And like that's the thing is like some things you just you write the recipe, but you don't really consider oh I kind of well, I do this that way, and like it's because of the temperature of of my stove and this, you know, like there's all these little things that you just can't explain. Well, you know, it's thinking about it. When you put a recipe in your book and it says iota carry in, and then someone messes you and uh they message you and they're like, Hey, I don't even have iota, I had cop-up and it didn't work. That's like yeah, you're like, well, yeah, yeah. I I didn't have a kickball, I had a BB, and this game was not fun.
+
+[54:29] You know what I mean like yeah yeah yeah people are yeah as we all know people are the worst so uh okay so before I get into the final segment which you guys are gonna be part of uh explain how Justino happened the term Justino for blending liquor and and Justino so my my the the sushi Vajan George uh when I was working for uh Johnny was named Justin Bini and I don't know why we can just kept talking about it and who was it was it weep up I don't know we well no not weep up it was you were calling Justino because we would all do fake Spanish Fabulous is from Mexico City oh it's families actually you could talk about mummies too and one a lot though sure the mummies like right now the strawberries yeah anyways but like he used to like do fake Spanish with me all the time so we would call Justin Justino which isn't fake that's how you would say it yeah I guess yeah you want to talk about mummies remember when he would go into convulsions like no no no when you like are on the floor yeah yeah like that remember we used to do that all the time stuck on your throat yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um because faggots would work like a 12 hour day and then come back to school and be an intern like uh did you ever sleep were you want methamphetamines he never sleeps anyway so like this is how this yeah yeah so then what happened uh so then what I don't know I actually I actually you know to be honest, I don't think I was part of the process of how it began. I I just came back one day and you guys had my made a drink. And you were like, this is a Justino. Hey, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[56:12] Alright, so during the time that you guys were there, what was the worst thing and the best thing we made? Worst thing, uh ketchup chocolate for sure. Everyone hated the ketchup chocolate chocolate. I hate it to this day. I mean conceptually you love it, right?
+
+[56:27] Yeah, conceptually I love it, yeah. Actually, I was in Copenhagen and some they were making chocolate out of uh rye or something, and they were like, Oh yeah, we made this fake chocolate. I was like, you're like 10 years ago. You're like, you're five years too late, eh? Yeah.
+
+[56:44] So what was good then? The cracker jack. Oh, the pork rinds cracker jacks? No, no, the we made the bourbon ones. Wait, which ones?
+
+[56:53] We made uh we distilled like the actual I I actually like the beaver tail, pup beaver tail is good. Yeah, puff beaver tail is good. I mean, the onion ice cream wasn't bad. Onion ice cream was good. Actually, no, the best thing I I gotta buy uh those ducks.
+
+[57:15] Oh my god. Yeah, pressed duck. So the interns wanted to make pressed duck. This was when, like 2010 or something? No, this is eight, this is eight.
+
+[57:24] Yeah, so we went to go buy. I was like, if you want to do pressed up for real, because the the I think Danielle had donated a duck press to the French Culinary Institute for like you know, Sultner or Sayak or one of these old school French guests. So it's in the library, and I'm like, the hell! Is it sitting in the library? This is garbage.
+
+[57:42] You know what I mean? That and so like I was like, and so one of our interns, I think it was Yahtzee, right? Was it Yahtzee? Yeah, it was Yahtzee. Who wanted to make uh pressed duck?
+
+[57:51] I was like, well, you know, if you really want to make pressed duck, you can't just go buy duck, it has to be duck with the blood in it, so you can't like cut it or do anything normal. So we had to go buy a duck from a live poultry place, and I was like, and I can't be part of this in any way shape. This was this was a perfect example of why I don't speak Spanish to people just because he made me speak Spanish to the people who work there. It's in a Spanish neighborhood. They're like, they're like, we don't speak Spanish.
+
+[58:15] But then you kept doing it. And he's like, I told you this is a halal joint. I don't speak Spanish. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[58:26] But yeah. Then we bought the ducks, took them back to I was not a part of this people. What's about to transpire? I was not a part of. We took them back to uh Nick Wong's apartment.
+
+[58:36] Because they who's, you know, yes, from uh, yes. And then, yeah. Nick Wong now the uh the chef at UB Preserve. Yeah, yeah. And they had to dispatch them personally in a humane way, but in a way that was good for the thing, and I could not be a part of it.
+
+[58:51] So it's it was a nightmare, right? For you. Yeah, it was. It was a nightmare. The duck was good.
+
+[58:56] Yeah, duck was good. Yeah. Duck was good. Okay, now uh we have a new segment on the show guy. By the way, what's the name of the wine shop gonna be?
+
+[59:04] Peoples. Peoples? Yeah, peoples. Peoples? People's pee, not peeples.
+
+[59:10] No. Peoples? Peoples. With a B? No, with like peoples with a peeboo.
+
+[59:15] Like people, like pee pee peoples. Like everyday peoples? Yes. Yeah. Peoples.
+
+[59:20] Peoples. Isn't people's like a store? It used to be. It used to be a drugstore. You remember that?
+
+[59:25] Yeah, peoples. Yeah, it became CBS. Let me ask you a question. Doesn't this have badge search engine optimization? Peoples?
+
+[59:32] Peoples. There can't be anything that comes up when you look up peoples. Peoples? People's. Peebles.
+
+[59:37] And then you could do McGill of Gorilla, but he was Peebles. Mr. Peebles. Remember this? Anyway, for those of you that like uh so now uh okay, good.
+
+[59:46] So we got that out of the way. What's the name of the wine bar gonna be called? Also Peoples? People's now is that a legal problem calling the store and the wine bar Peebles? Well, it's gonna be called uh People's Wine Bar.
+
+[59:55] And the other one's the wine bar at People's The Wine Bar and People's Shop at People's People's Wine Shop, People's Wine Shop. Can you have a mascot, Mr. Peoples, and like have it? What do you think their story is? This is construction workers?
+
+[1:00:08] I don't know. Oh, this is the concrete warehouse supply uh center of the city, which is why all the streets around here are terrible and you get choked out with concrete dust when you walk out the door, and there's big plops of concrete in the bike lanes that cause me to almost die every time I ride my bike around here. So if you need concrete in the greater New York metro area, come to Bushwick where it's like hipsters and concrete. We got everything you need. We got hipsters, we got concrete.
+
+[1:00:35] Anyway. So uh Go Dave. Hi, Nastasia Louise. She's Louise. So now we come to the it's gonna be the final segment.
+
+[1:00:46] We got no callers, by the way. People don't like us anymore. Can you stop at that? Why do you usually get callers? Sometimes.
+
+[1:00:52] We had no questions, no callers. He called me. People don't have phones anymore. So this is called Classics in the Field. It's about classics in the field.
+
+[1:01:01] Yeah. So today's class classic is actually uh you ever been to uh been to like uh like uh where's pal's books? Pal's books is in Portland, right? So I was in Portland, and we go to Portland's. Yeah, we've been there.
+
+[1:01:15] Yeah, yeah. Not Portland, Maine. We've been there too. Oh so uh I was there and I found this random book called The Bull Cook and Authentic Historical Recipes and Practices. And uh I searched through it, and it is the craziest cookbook that I think is ever, ever, ever, ever.
+
+[1:01:34] So the story is there's a guy named George Herter in um in Wasika, Minnesota, who in 1935 started an outdoor store like Cabela's or something like this. But he was also like Sears Roebuck, he had a catalog, and this catalog shipped everywhere. And so he became one of the best known kind of outdoor dealers. The business went bankrupt in 1977. Cabela's, and it went bankrupt.
+
+[1:01:57] It's kind of an interesting, like I won't get into it, we don't have time, but like basically, like uh someone who clearly has a certain political bent was like, as soon as they stopped being able to sell guns over the inner uh over the mails in the thing, he went out of business. So it was like, but anyway, so it's like hardcore, like they sold guns and ammo and and stuff. Anyway, Cabela's bought their Cabela's bought the name, and you can still buy Herter's brand, I think like decoys and ammo's from Cabela's if you want to. So but George Herter, aside from being an outdoors person. Is that natural wine enthusiast?
+
+[1:02:31] It was natural, it was natural wine enthusiast. Uh it was that's exactly what it was. But um basically he started writing a series of books in uh he started writing in 1959, published them in 60, called The Bull Cook and Authentic Historical Recipes and Practices, Volume 123. He also has a lot of other well known books. And you can look through it, like his the list of books he's published are uh I'll give you some Professional Fly Tying and Tackle Making Manual and Manufacturer's Guide, Fitting and Finishing Gunstocks, The Professional Netmaking Manual, and here's the good one.
+
+[1:03:06] The only way to professionally fillet and clean fish. Oh wow. Strong. Uh so these books, the interesting thing about it is is that he is an old school crank. Like a hard school, hard, hard, hard old school crank.
+
+[1:03:20] So, you know, he's a mid-century, mid, you know, 20th century, like white guy, American, conservative. He hated New York City. He hated all that. He says things that are whatever. You know, so that comes with everything that it would come with.
+
+[1:03:38] But you have to read these books because Orientals. Oh my God, that's yeah, that's for sure. Like, like, uh that's mild. Yeah, yeah. Uh but he's not, it's not like he's not like saying anything.
+
+[1:03:50] He he's not intending to be at all. He's not like an overt racist in the book or an overt misogynist in the book, but he says things that are, yeah, like Oriental, which is just, you know, at the time, or like the ways that Native Americans are characterized, which he thinks he's characterizing them in a good way, but obviously, you know. But that's not what's interesting about the books. What's interesting about the books is they are 100% factually incorrect. So he was writing in a time when he he was one of these weird, semi-learned people who traveled the world taking notes on things and then writing, above all, recipe books with all of these weird stories that are just dead wrong.
+
+[1:04:30] And if you look it up, for some reason, uh, it's not uh it's on the internet. I don't know why, because it's not in the public domain yet. But you have to read, you have to read some of this. Uh the very beginning of it says in the lumber camp days and pioneer days, the cooks learned from each other the secrets uh of old world cooks. Each taught each other, uh each each taught uh his other the country other countries' secrets.
+
+[1:04:54] Out of this mixing came fine food prepared as nowhere else in the world. I'm putting down some of these recipes that you will not find in cookbooks. Each recipe here is a real cooking secret. So throughout all of this, he says he's giving you all these like crazy secrets that you can't know anywhere else. I'm also publishing for the first time authentic historical recipes of great importance.
+
+[1:05:11] By the way, none of them are authentic historical recipes. For your convenience, I will start with meats, fish, eggs, soups, and sauces and sandwiches. The art of French frying desserts, how to dress game, how to properly sharpen a knife, how to make wines and beer, which his recipes are terrible. How to make French soap, and here's my favorite. What to do in case of hydrogen or cobalt bomb attack.
+
+[1:05:32] Keeping as much in alphabetical order as possible. So for those of you that don't know, a cobalt bomb is when they add stuff like cobalt to a uh an atomic weapon to make it rain uh more radioactive fallout on you. And I'll I'll basically I'll give you the in a nutshell what he says to do in case of a hydrogen bomb attack. He says uh that what you want to do is don't go in your basement. He's like, everyone says to go in your basement.
+
+[1:05:56] He hates magazines, by the way, even though he was a huge uh catalog salesperson, he hates magazines and uh editors of uh cooking sections, especially. Like every other page is a reference to how much he hates these people. And uh he says, anyone that tells you to go in your basement is an idiot. You're gonna be crushed by all of the house that falls on you in your basement. He says you want two five-pound containers of tobacco.
+
+[1:06:20] He says, that's gonna be your money. He's like, when money is worthless, tobacco will still be currency. And he says, get a 22 rifle and a thousand rounds of ammunition so that you can hunt squirrel and whatnot uh when the time comes. This is his uh recipes for success in a cobalt bomb attack. Um anyway, let me uh give you some other stuff.
+
+[1:06:39] So uh like I say, everything he says is wrong. So uh like literally everything he says is wrong. I try to find one. Uh I I wish I had time to get into this. He has this whole section on Wyatt Earp.
+
+[1:06:50] You know Wyatt Earp? From the OK Corral. He goes, at Dodge, his boiled sliced buffalo tongue pickled in vinegar and his thinly sliced buffalo liver fried with bacon and onions were famous. His Wyatt Earp breakfast consisting of half-inch thick slice of beef or buffalo eye of rib steak with thinly sliced onions on top, put between two slices of buttered bread with the butter well sprinkled with salt and served with two fried eggs, was both very popular and justly so. And then he gives a recipe for here's the Oriental Saloon that Wyatt Earp ran.
+
+[1:07:18] He gives a recipe for Wyatt Earp's uh doves. And so he gives this whole long recipe. First of all, he goes into how Wyatt Earp used to shoot people, etc. etc. And then he goes into this entire thing about how Wyatt Earp cooked doves and the whole secret of Wyatt Herp's doves.
+
+[1:07:33] Ready for it? Soy sauce. Soy sauce. Soy sauce. He has fake secrets for uh fried chicken.
+
+[1:07:41] He says, never use charcoal for broiling, by the way. He hates charcoal. Says it's noxious and uh gives off noxious stuff. He was also a believer, early believer in alkaline versus acidic foods and acidosis, which is one of my favorite crank health theories of all time. But he says, no shit.
+
+[1:07:58] I mean, you don't think that sometimes you need a balance of alkaline and acidic foods? Or it's all hocum, dude. Like, what are you gonna stick a pH paper in your butt and figure out what your uh pH is? No, no, no. I'm just saying like eating more like high alkaline foods when you know you've had a very highly acidic diet.
+
+[1:08:16] Yeah, but acidic and alkaline don't mean any like in other words, like maybe if they ascribed, maybe if they said, if you eat a lot of this, eat this other thing. But like, for instance, apples are an alkaline food. Yeah. Why? Lemons are an alkaline food.
+
+[1:08:29] Yeah, why? What does that mean? Ah. Give me a meaning for it. Supposed in the pH wise, I guess.
+
+[1:08:36] Of what? Your butt? pH of what? Your blood? Like what?
+
+[1:08:40] Like this. Again, like this doesn't like make any sense to me at all. But he says, he says, uh, always use hard coal. It gives off no carbon fumes like charcoal. No such things, no such thing.
+
+[1:08:53] And it gives the meat, fish, or fowl a much cleaner taste. Hard coal never obscures the flavor of meat, fish, fowl, or as charcoal definitely does. The use of hard coal, like anthracite coal is what he cooks with, instead of charcoal in Minnesota for broiling, has always been the accepted practice. Many other parts of America also discovered this to be true. The famous restaurant, Gage and Tolner's in Brooklyn, which unquestionably broils the finest fish and meat in the East, uses nothing but hard coal, never charcoal.
+
+[1:09:20] Then he gives a recipe for uh the guy liked fake the guy here's here's some fake history for you. Mary Louisa Roquefort stuffed chopped beef. Mary Louisa was an Austrian woman, the daughter of Francis I of Austria. She married Napoleon I of France, becoming the Empress of France. The French spelling of her name is Marie Louise, the same as it is spelled in English.
+
+[1:09:39] Austrian cooking has always been excellent. This is true. This is not a lie. He says, Mary Louise was a woman who instinctively knew good food combinations. Her Roquefort stuffed chopped beef, if you like cheese, is one of the fine dishes, and like all really good recipes, is simple to make if you know the trick.
+
+[1:09:56] And then he gives, quote unquote, the original recipe, which is ground beef and roquefort cheese, like on a on a bun. It's like as though, and then he says that Napoleon would order this constantly. He said, uh, Roqueford stuffed chopped beef and chow chow mustard pickles. Chow chow mustard pickles are an American thing, straight up. He goes, Roqueford stuffed uh stuffed chopped beef and chow chow mustard pickles and French fried potatoes were one of Napoleon's favorite meals.
+
+[1:10:23] I don't know where he gets this stuff. When he was prisoner on St. Helena Island, he requested that he would be served this menu item at least once a week. His request was never granted. I have always thought that this was carrying punishment way too far.
+
+[1:10:36] And then he also goes on a diatribe about how everyone else messes up this recipe that you've never heard of by cooking it wrong. It's like the whole book is an amazing just diatribe against everybody. Palm Springs, cookbook writers, like he hates Palm Springs, loves the place. He literally, I believe, wanted uh Palm Springs to be cobalt bombed so that he could get rid of all the humans and people could go back in there and live nicely. And the one piece of advice I've never tried of his, which I think I uh like someday if you ever need to, and I think I've said this on the air before, if you need to kill a turtle and it's pulled into its shell, what do you do?
+
+[1:11:12] You put a chopstick in its butt. Ding ding ding! Did I tell you this one? That was his advice? Yeah.
+
+[1:11:17] I learned that from you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's because I learned it from him. So and then you stick a stick out, you put the chopstick in its butt, it bites the stick, chop off the head. Yeah.
+
+[1:11:27] Yeah. All right. I just thought Chinese people came up with that. Well, yeah. Now I don't know, maybe.
+
+[1:11:32] Who knows? This guy didn't. Maybe this guy did. George Herter, Bull, uh the uh the bull cook and authentic recipes. Classics in the feed, go look it up, go find that on the internet.
+
+[1:11:43] It's it's like it it's not as cool now in the era of like fake news where like, you know, everything we see is fake all the time, but like back then, like it was a good dose of can you believe this guy actually wrote this book? And some of the recipes I've actually tried, some of the recipes are actually decent. Almost all the history is fake with a little sprinkling of truth. So don't necessarily take his advice on how to survive a hydrogen bomb attack. Uh, you guys got any last uh words on the show?
+
+[1:12:13] Uh they're looking at each other, nodding. People can't hear the nods. Check out um the Elfab and Jerry's show. Oh no. Can't plug another.
+
+[1:12:21] Oh, wait, wait, yeah, you can. I thought you guys are gonna have us on. Yeah, because we're gonna have you guys on. When are you gonna have us on? Uh let's do it this weekend, Saturday at like three or something like that.
+
+[1:12:31] Nastasi doesn't like where is it? Is it is it shot in Brooklyn? It's in the canal Canal Street Market. It's it's a canal in like Lafayette right by the school. Uh it's touching the stasis.
+
+[1:12:40] Does that work for you guys? We'll talk about it at last. All right. Anyway, thanks, guys. Thanks, Dadulus.
+
+[1:12:44] Thanks, Jeremiah. Thank you. Cooking issues. Bye. Bye.
+
+[1:12:55] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:13:16] Heritage Radio Network is a non-profit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Wanna be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member.
+
+[1:13:37] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is made possible thanks to listeners like you. Want to support independent food radio? Go to heritageradionetwork.org slash donate today. This is Dave Arnold, host of Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. I've been a part of the HRN community for nine years.
+
+[0:20] Nine years. Each week I record my show in the HRN studio made from two recycled shipping containers because I'm excited to bring you, our listeners, the most important stories from the world of food. Well, not really food, more like, you know, whatever Nastas and I happen to be doing at that moment. You know, technical issues. All of us here at HRN make food radio because we love it.
+
+[0:41] This year HRN is celebrating its tenth anniversary, but we need your support to keep food radio going strong for the next decade. Join the HRN community today by becoming a member. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate right now. You can even show some love for my show by selecting Cooking Issues in the designation drop-down menu. And if you hate me but love Nastasia, still do that.
+
+[1:02] Select Cooking Issues in the designation drop-down menu. Thanks for listening to HRN. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues. Uh, we had to re-record uh the intro.
+
+[1:23] The original recording was lost. Um, but we want to start this week's show by talking about a longtime supporter of Cooking Issues listener, caller, uh, and supporter of Booker and Dax. He, you know, had the products, been, you know, talking to us for years, was a um really, you know, loved member of the cooking issues community, took his own life last week, and we just want to take a moment and um talk about it. And you know, uh, he wasn't actually in the hospitality industry, but you know, it's also a huge suicide's a huge problem in the hospitality industry. We just want to take a minute.
+
+[2:03] Anyone that can hear us, you know, please, if you feel hopeless, you don't know where to go, or you don't think there's you know any way that you can get help or that someone can help you, um, there is. And if you're thinking of taking your own life, there is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which is 1-800-273-8255. That's 1-800-273-8255. Remember, there's help out there, and even if you don't think that you're worth saving, other people do. Please, please take, please take that last little bit of of effort and call and get some some help.
+
+[2:39] Don't hide the fact that you need help. Don't think it's silly that you need to go get help. Please, please do. So we do not have Matt in the booth today. We have uh, because he's getting married.
+
+[2:51] Oh. Yeah, he's getting married. And for some reason he believed that uh getting married was more important than coming in and engineering our show. Yeah, I feel about that. Well, what?
+
+[3:02] Our show is way more important than marriage. Well, more important than his marriage to you. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, but if like, you know, if like Paul McCartney was gonna be somewhere you would cancel like all the rest of the shows like forever.
+
+[3:16] Oh, we should say the boondoggler. Oh what? Well, Rebecca the Boondogler. Yes. Is engaged.
+
+[3:24] Oh, didn't we already say that? No. So we'll have a post-engagement boondoggler on here. I don't know if she's planned her wedding yet, but uh we'll be a real boondogger. We'll rip her up up one side and down the other.
+
+[3:34] Uh so in the booth today. Uh, call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So uh in the booth today we have Max. How you doing?
+
+[3:44] Doing great, how are you? All right, is this your first this is your first time? It is. So uh tell us uh because this is how we do this, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sure.
+
+[3:52] Uh I'm crazy for craft beer and I love whole. Oh, we've got a caller. Wait, hold the band? Yeah, hold the bands. Oh, the holes in general.
+
+[4:00] Oh. Uh caller on the air. Hello? Hi. Am I on the air?
+
+[4:08] Oh, yes. Okay, great, great. Hey Dave and Patchet. Uh this is the Crystal Chili guy. Oh, hey, what's up?
+
+[4:17] I'm calling about uh making stuff that people actually want to eat. That sounds like a better idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.
+
+[4:24] Uh wedding. Speaking of batch cocktails. Right. We want to make some cocktails the day before. We got a book about batch cocktails out from the library.
+
+[4:36] Almost every recipe had uh lemon juice or lime juice that said, you know, oh, add that two hours before and not earlier. Um so what are some good cocktails that are still uh sort of maybe pretty? We're thinking like one sort of lemonade one, another sort of whiskey peach based one. Um are there any techniques that we could use to make fruit juice used cocktail using cocktails? Is it who when you say we, is it you and your wife are making them?
+
+[5:06] Uh me and my husband. You and your husband. Okay. So are you, but they're for your wedding? Yeah.
+
+[5:12] Okay. Here, I think, how long do you have? Uh four weeks. Okay, you have time. The good news is I know you don't have time because you're planning, but you do have time.
+
+[5:24] So uh first mistake people make in life in in is trying to trying to force a particular life in cooking, especially catering cooking, is trying to force a recipe into the scenario instead of choosing the recipe for the scenario. Does that make sense? That does make sense. Right. So there are many recipes that don't require the the juice, lemon or lime, to be uh fresh, but they're not necessarily the c you know the normal things you'd think of.
+
+[6:04] So right off the top of the bat, so we're talking about a summer wedding. Where do you live? How freaking hot is it? Vancouver, not super hot. Right, right.
+
+[6:13] So okay, so you don't have to worry too much, but there are recipes that are built on the all of the ingredients being aged. So old school punches, for instance. Not that you want to do an old school punch, but old school punches that are made primarily with peel and oleosacarum, these things last a long time. They're also, and uh are like how are these being served? Do you have some sort of cater waiters who are gonna be pouring this out?
+
+[6:38] Uh yeah, we got a bar at the venue, and we'll have some observers there. Okay, so this is no offense to all of the cater waiters out there, but I have seen the vast majority of cater waiters, and again, I'm not trying to insult the whole category, but that I have met, uh, they're just doing this to make a couple of bucks before they do whatever they're gonna do with their life. And the translation of that is they do not care about your cocktail. So if you say to them something like, please make sure these bottles are on ice at least four hours beforehand, and then please don't pour them over ice. What they will do is not chill the bottles at all and then pour them over the world's crappiest ice with a lot of water in the bottom of the glass.
+
+[7:24] I'm telling you this from bitter experience. Okay? Right. So uh you have to like the good thing about punch recipes, uh, many of them I should say, is that they are relatively bulletproofed against wide variance in dilution and temperature, and they're built to be aged. Right?
+
+[7:44] So right away you're you're kind of winning there. You might want to jack the alcohol a little bit because you know, I don't know. If people know it's punch, they know they're about to get like eighty, you know, 30, 40 cups of this stuff fine, and the cups are small, but you get what I'm saying. Like modern cocktail people want uh alcohol level that's a a little bit higher. The second thing you can do is you can use cordials.
+
+[8:06] Now, cordials, I've been saying for many years, uh people need to get wrap their heads around cordials again. Uh now, cordials don't taste like fresh uh juice, but think about this. Do you really here's where you need uncl like like cloudy, unclarified fresh juice is for shaking cocktails, right? You're not pouring, you know, you I'm not, I should say, I don't know, you I mean I've spoken to you, but I don't you know I don't know how you feel about cocktails. But my point is is that is that like I'm only using unclarified fresh juice really in shaking cocktails.
+
+[8:40] Uh and you you do not want a cater wear shaking your cocktail, right? Now, a clarified juice, yeah, it's only gonna last uh you know a day before it starts going off. But run a test. So if you want to clarify some juice, run a test and see how long it lasts before you don't you don't like it anymore. Maybe you can do it, do it beforehand.
+
+[8:59] But really, cordials are bulletproof. Now they don't taste like fresh juice because they're not supposed to taste like fresh juice. And they've gotten a bad name because Rose's uh lime is not a uh, you know, uh no offense, Rose, but like you know, her lime juice isn't the best. You know what I mean? It like when I say it's not the best, it's bad.
+
+[9:19] But you can make like uh lemon cordials, you can make um you can make lime cordials. As an alternative, if you acid if you must use a fresh juice and you're gonna shake something, acid-adjusted orange juice lasts a lot longer than lemon or lime juice does before it goes bad. So, you know, yeah, you get like a couple of days out of acid-adjusted orange juice. It's a different flavor, but it's something you can use in lieu of uh in lieu of the fresh lemon or lime, and it won't get a detergent off taste, which is kind of the way I characterize old lemon or lime juice. Any of this making sense?
+
+[9:55] Yes, definitely. Alright. So you have four weeks. So what I'm expecting is that, you know, if you have any more questions, welcome to call back. Is that in I don't know whether you're going on honeymoon, but uh in six weeks, I want to hear how the cocktail went.
+
+[10:07] I want you to call back and I want you to tell me how the cocktail went. We'll do. Alright, and uh congratulations on uh the wedding, I'm sure it's gonna be great. Thank you. Alright, cool.
+
+[10:17] Dave, why do you think all these people want to make cocktails at their own wedding? Well, because it you paint, it's it's very frustrating. You get a lot of calls about it. It's very frustrating to pay someone a lot of money to do a bad job at something. You know what I mean?
+
+[10:33] It's like it's very frustrating to pay someone to do your plumbing and have them do a bad job. It's very frustrating to go to a this is why if you're a cook, you like restaurants can piss you off sometimes because it's very frustrating to go to a restaurant and pay someone for food and have them do a bad job. Bobby Murphy is here. Uh beverage director from uh beverage director, right? Beverage director.
+
+[10:55] Beverage director, yeah. Beverage director from uh existing conditions, formerly of uh next restaurant in Chicago. So you may also call in any of your Chicago, uh also from Iowa, uh your Iowa related, your Grant Akitz related questions, your Tales of the Cocktail Cap program running uh questions, or your cocktail questions, your beverage directing questions, and your non-alcoholic uh beverage questions to uh Bobby Murphy here. Speaking of which, we've got a question from Positive MD. Alright, what do you got?
+
+[11:27] Uh Positive MD is coming to New York, and he wants to know your suggestions for interesting bars, restaurants. Uh he is already planning on going to existing conditions. Well, you've made the right choice there. Yeah, that's the first choice right there. Yeah, probably don't need to go anywhere else.
+
+[11:41] Alright, so uh I would say I don't really Nastasi and I don't talk about it, but like three years ago I would say that no one knows better where to eat in New York than Nastasia Lopez, but I don't think she goes out as much as she did two or three years ago. That's not true. What? Alright, well, so okay, I'm gonna divide this into portions. I'm gonna have Nastasia.
+
+[12:02] What? Why would that have changed? Well, because, you know, you're a misanthrope. You used to used to be forced to go out. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:10] Okay. Okay. Apparently I've been corrected. Nastasia Lopez is going out. All freaking cylinders firing, as much as she ever did.
+
+[12:20] As much as she ever did. So Alright, Bobby and Nastasio. Go, Bobby. Yeah, where should positive MD go? Um, as far as bars?
+
+[12:29] Let's start with bars. Um, I mean you kinda have to like knock off all the classics, you know, Moria Margot, Def and Co. Uh, of course, existing conditions. Um first of all, Mori Margot, Death and Co. East Village.
+
+[12:43] Just just do like an East Village bunch. Then we can do like Yeah, Mr. Paradise, uh throw it to the our friends and family, Mace, uh the cabinet, which is a nice new Mescal bar. And I always tell people too, like, when you come to New York, um By the way, literally, this is what everyone does. He just pushed out all of the Cocktail Kingdom Greg Bone related bars at you that are on the East Village, and then we get over to our side of the of the city, he's gonna push out Katana Kitten, our sister bar.
+
+[13:08] Just wait, just wait, just wait. Katana Kitten. Uh by the way, we're up for Katana Kitten. The two of us are there's four bars up for Best New Bar. We're one of them.
+
+[13:16] Katana Kitten's also there. So, like, kind of no matter what happens, it's gonna be an awkward family picture. Uh no, but I would just say to anybody that comes to New York, don't burrow hop and like pick a neighborhood. Because if you're in the East Village, you could go to ten bars and Bobby. I want people to village hop from the East Village to the West Village, because we're in the West Village and I I, you know, come from East Village bar culture.
+
+[13:42] So, like, I kinda want people to hop from the East Village to the West Village. It's not that far, people. Speaking of hopping, uh, Johnny Gagel is asking, where's the best place to grab a bagel in New York? Oh, Jesus! You can't ask that question, because I don't know you well enough.
+
+[13:57] For but let's do restaurants. Okay, look. You have to make a choice in life over what style of bagel do you want. Do you want a puffier, doughier bagel of the Essa slash absolute family? Do you want a like a tall bagel?
+
+[14:13] I think I which I can't remember what tall bagel does. Do you want more of like uh, you know, a smaller bagel, like the old Union style bagel suppose? He wants to open a bagel shop in the UK. And he says the bagels suck. Yes, of course.
+
+[14:27] Figured New York is the best. Yes. How how does he do that? The water's different. Uh no, it's not that.
+
+[14:33] It's just people don't. Look, people don't, people make bad bagel. New York water is not interesting. Let me just tell you that. People who come here, except for Saratoga, New York water is not interesting.
+
+[14:42] It's it's relatively low in dissolved solids. Ain't nothing special about our water. You know what it is? We have a we have a large food culture and we have a large Jewish culture here. And that's why we rule at bagels.
+
+[14:54] Now, those Montreal people, some people like those bagels. I have have not been to Montreal in many decades. I've never eaten at any one of their fancy bagel stores. I like the bagel store, Montreal style bagels that are here, but could they add salt to them, which they don't in Montreal? Anyone that doesn't add bread to salt is a bad person.
+
+[15:11] I'm looking at you, Tuscany. Terrible people. And uh, so I don't know. What do you think about those? I think uh Orwashers is like the only one that has a dog in the fight, like of all the Montreal bagels I've had.
+
+[15:23] Black seed's pretty good too. Yeah. Um but what do you think about New York? What's your favorite New York style bagel? Well, I mean, that's a tough question, too, because you gotta think like, are you just going for the bagel or are you going for toppings and fixings that are sounds cow?
+
+[15:36] No, no, no, bagel. Bagel. Oh, yeah. Anyone who knows anything should get their fish one place, their bagels another place. Sure bagels absolute for sure.
+
+[15:43] Oh, I love absolute. But absolute's Essa style. So Absolute comes from Essa. It's a little, you know, different. Um I liked uh even in that neighborhood, like neighborhood by neighborhood.
+
+[15:53] So Columbia University area used to have, I don't I haven't been there in again in like decades, but used to have three top tier bagel places. There was absolute, there was Columbia, which was also good, which was a denser, thinner style of bagel and not that big doughy thing that kind of absolute pushes out. The kind of classic fight, like in the 70s, the classic fight was H H versus Essa. You know what I mean? Like Essa style bagels and H H.
+
+[16:19] But even down where Essa is in the in the like low 20s, right? Like even down there, there's tall bagel, which Dax is Dax's favorite. Like these bagel things tend to accumulate. Uh Kosar's bagel, Kosar's Biales, which made excellent biales, used to have uh kind of their own kind of different kind of bagel. They've changed hands, their recipes changed a little bit.
+
+[16:41] Um but anyway, the reason that the the reason that it the bagels are good here is because there's a lot of bagel competition and a lot of connoisseurship of of the bagel. Who's Barney Greengrass bagel? What do they serve? I believe they're H H. So bars.
+
+[16:56] A lot of the old school Upper West Side people are uh are H H H customers, which is H H the same as it used to be decades ago? I know they went bankrupt once. Uh there was one right over by my house in the upper west side, and it was it was pretty good, but I'd prefer absolute all the time. And I always tell people like you you moved to New York and you like don't have very much money, and so pizza's like the first thing, and then bagels are like the easiest thing, and it was like a real hard problem for me for like the first six months not to go to Barney Greengrass and order a $22 surgeon bagel every day for breakfast. Yeah.
+
+[17:26] Well like a drug problem. When you go outside, so you're a UK, but even when you leave New York and you go out, you look at, and basically they're just bagel-shaped breads. You know what I mean? They're just they're garbage. They're they're they're just not made right.
+
+[17:39] You know what I mean? They're just they don't like the recipes are online, people. I've made them. Nastasi and I may or may not do a bagel thing when we do our videos because we bought a 19 like 90 like bagel maker, which is fundamentally just a little boiling kettle for bagels. But you can make a decent bagel.
+
+[17:54] Uh, I think the reason people don't make good ones is because they don't have people that care or will buy a good bagel. Maybe people don't even like a good bagel. I don't know. Uh I just always feel like people don't spend enough initial time on like their dough recipe. Like that's like number one, and then proofing whatever it may be, like they just don't keep consistency.
+
+[18:12] Like you need the malt, you need to boil. There's a whole bunch of stuff you need to do. Uh, but anyway, it's not rocket science, it's bagel science. Alright, so back on uh on well, what about restaurants now? Hold on a moment.
+
+[18:23] We've got a question from Elvin. What's up? Elvin wants to know he he says it's a terrible question, but what's another place in the world that I can get a decent booker and Dax existing conditions slash liquid intelligence style gin and tonic. Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[18:41] Bobby? No, I don't know. I'm sure there are places, yeah. But like uh not that many people do recarb on um not there's not that many people doing recarb on that kind of drink. Uh right?
+
+[18:57] Yeah. What's uh or if they're recarbing at their bottle in it which means how do you pronounce Stephen Hope's uh bar in Puerto Rico? Penultima La Penultima. I haven't been. They do it there, I know that.
+
+[19:07] I mean, I've heard a lot great things about La Penultima. I love Steven and those guys down there, but I I've just never been. But that's like the only people I've ever heard of like redoing like gin and juice or the actual gin and tonic. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:19] I'm anxious to go next. If I ever make it to Puerto Rico, I'm anxious to go. Let's go next week. Uh yeah, next week. Yeah.
+
+[19:26] My Nastasi and our summer is full. Yeah. Full. Full. This episode is brought to you by you.
+
+[19:35] As an independent, member supported nonprofit, the amazing content you hear on Heritage Radio Network is made possible thanks to our generous community of members and partners. For 10 years, HRN has been a defining voice in America's food movement, and we never would have made it this far without you. Join us in celebrating an amazing decade of food radio and support our summer fun drive by becoming a member of HRN. You can choose from our member gifts and will receive exclusive discounts on HRN events. We truly believe that with your help, we can change the world and our food system one bite or sound bite at a time.
+
+[20:11] But there's no food radio without you. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate before July 31st to do your part to ensure a bright future for your favorite food podcasts. Alright, so uh but restaurants now. I don't I haven't been anywhere good. What?
+
+[20:28] Little recycle out every day. Yeah, but that doesn't mean I've been anywhere good lately. Alright, Bobby, what about the what about like uh like all of all the all the you're not a kid, but you know what I mean? All of like the crew is going out to places like Boons. What are the places like that?
+
+[20:42] Like Uncle Boone's and all that. What are the places people are going now? Well, Boons will never get old. If I had the money to eat a boons every day, I would eat a boons every day. So when you say go there, that's something you would if you were coming to the book.
+
+[20:51] Yeah, like I whenever my family comes to town or anybody that's like visiting, I'd take them there like immediately. And mostly like unanimously they love it. Um I don't know. For me, like, I haven't really done a bunch of like uh I would say like upper tier restaurants here. I I did before when I didn't live here, but I'm just always trying to like source out like ethnic food right now.
+
+[21:11] Hey, hey, see if you Bobby, see if you can figure out who I am. I eat all the time! What are you talking? I can't think of any restaurants. No, no, no.
+
+[21:21] I haven't been anywhere where I'm like, damn, that was good. Also, it's about the experience, like who you go with, too. Were you just quoting NWA? No. Oh, it's the end of the.
+
+[21:32] She was just quoted the end of straight out of content. Damn, that shit was stuff. Ooh. That uh eaten a lot of Chinese food in my life, and then when I moved to New York and found Sejuan food, very hard for me not to just want to eat Sejuan food all the time here. Uh well, alright.
+
+[21:49] Anyway, check this out, people. This is not this, but I have a new, I have a new cheap, you know how everyone in New York, people in New York, everyone's got like, okay, Popeyes is delicious, right? But like most neighborhoods, there's a ch there's a a cheap fried chicken or a different like in semi-independent fried chicken joint. Yep. I found my local one.
+
+[22:10] Ready for it? Kung Fu chicken. Oh, you're telling me about it with the squid too, right? They so like, yeah, they have a bombing giant squid, which I actually I think is a cuttlefish. It's that big flat one, it's got that chew to it.
+
+[22:21] They fry the whole thing and then they hack it up and and serve it to you. It is on point. They're like their poppers are on point. They put some sort of like MSG in the in their coating. It's good.
+
+[22:32] Yeah. On point. Highly recommend. Even the kids like it. Yeah?
+
+[22:36] Yeah. I don't have any locals. Kung Fu chicken. I just moved though, too. Yeah.
+
+[22:40] Alright. So apparently, even though Nastasia Lopez goes out constantly, she has not one recommendation for you. Oh, I'll think. I'll think. Yeah, yeah, okay.
+
+[22:49] Uh alright. Check this out. Uh I don't have the name of uh I don't have the the name of this person, but hey, Dave and Nastasia, I'm all caught up with the backlog and decided to listen from episode one again. This is likely ill advised for a rational person, but I've never claimed to be said person. Listen, I'm gonna give you the same advice I give uh Dax.
+
+[23:10] So Dax rewatches Bob's Burgers and Parks and Rec like on a like like constantly. He's like, I play more Bob's burgers. Watch something new! Dave, it says right there. Serena.
+
+[23:22] Oh, Serena. Serena, watch something, listen to something new. I can't stand listening to myself the first time around. You know, Nastasi and I constantly want to murder each other. True or false?
+
+[23:35] Mm-hmm. Oh my god. Did we told the story about the about the bananograms? No. Talk about it.
+
+[23:43] We've never talked about the banana grams? No. No. I'm gonna finish this question. Dave and I are really good at bananograms.
+
+[23:48] Uh we are actually okay at banana grams, but who's the who's the king of bananograms? Robert? Yeah. Showed up at the bar. What's Robert's last name again?
+
+[23:56] Sexy. Yeah. What? Sexy. Saxy.
+
+[23:58] So he like, interesting story, which I'm not gonna play. I'm just gonna say you that was the least I've ever heard you talk. I know. Six hours, yeah. I know.
+
+[24:08] But he was dominating. I mean, I beat him. Once. But he also beat me. But he was so dominant that Bobby went over into the into the existing conditions archive and pulled out a banana costume.
+
+[24:23] Oh yeah. And he wore for half of our service on the birthday of the bar, he wore a banana costume and was playing bananograms. Alright, so I'll talk about this before I do the question. So he's we're sitting there, Karen Stanley, who is the new manager at Booker and Dax, congratulations to us for having Karen Stanley. What?
+
+[24:43] What'd I say? Wow, Dave. Existing conditions. Sorry, man. Getting old, getting old and losing it.
+
+[24:49] So Nastasi's like, uh so we're sitting there and we're playing, and Nastasia, as you might know, like uh, let's just say that she only cares about her own envelopes. Not true. So she we're we have we're all bananagrams, by the way, is like is like a floating board scrabble where you have to rearrange and keep putting new letters in, and you're trying to form a scrabble-like board, but it's about constant rearrangement. And if you're playing with Nastasia, don't you dare use two-letter word QI ever. She hates it.
+
+[25:22] I just don't like easy. Like, why why play it if you're gonna make it easy? Like, it should be hard. Uh oh. It should be hard.
+
+[25:28] And you should think. So when you play with Nastasia, everyone else in the world plays Scrabble rules in terms of like legitimate words, except for when you play Nastasia Lopez. She flipped a table on somebody once. She flipped a table. The first time she played with said person who I'm not gonna talk about, he used QI, and she's like, Well, if you really want to win that way, and he's like, I do.
+
+[25:49] And then, like But then he kept grabbing letters and putting them on the floor thinking I couldn't see them. Like that is right. So she flipped the table. She flipped a table. Yeah.
+
+[25:58] Okay. So what you should know is that you don't mess around with Nastasi Lopez when you're playing the game. Because she will shoot you like a like like a card player in the old west. Anyway, uh so we're at the table at the bar, playing bananagrams, and she reaches for a letter and punches the water glass all over my board. Which time?
+
+[26:21] Well, that's it. She punches the water glass, water everywhere, all over me, all over the letters, and then Karen Stanley, of course, immediately starts helping me clean up. And Nastasia, what does Nastasia do? Because remember, it's about who can fastest create a board. Keeps playing.
+
+[26:35] She keeps playing. She's still playing. So like, I'm like, Nastasia, what the hell are you doing? Why are you playing? Help me clean up this mess that you made.
+
+[26:45] So then she pulls over a towel, doesn't just start dabbing the water, like, like, like, like, like, washing machine mixes my board up with the towel while being very careful not to mess with her letters. So I'm like, BOM! And I just like smack her letters into like. Across the room. It was not across the room.
+
+[27:09] It was not across the room. So anyway, so we're like, like smear, like, you know, you know, pent up, like, like we're both like vibrating. Karen is horrifying. She's like about to go into a panic attack. She's sitting next to her.
+
+[27:26] She's like, I don't know if I want to play with you guys anymore. She doesn't talk like that. Anyway, so we finally get ready to play again. We start playing, and like literally, 45 seconds later, Nastasia Lopez, because Jack Shram was the bartender, puts the glass, refills Nastasia's water glass, puts it exactly where it was the set the first time around. She punches the glass again right into my lap, all over my letters, and I do this.
+
+[27:58] And he stands up and like, I thought he was gonna punch me. No, yeah, no, Dave, I thought you were gonna punch this. Nastasia Lopez makes up this. Nastasia Lopez makes this up that I'm gonna punch her because she wants me to seem like a violent person. But it is true that I jumped up, had my arms in the air, then I just stared and said nothing for about 30 seconds.
+
+[28:14] And then I ran off. No, that's not what you said. You just said, I'm gonna pee, and then you ran. She looked like my she looked like my dog Watson with like his ears pinned back and like looking up and like I was just I I hadn't said or moved at all. I was just in the air with my arms in the air, my eyes super wide.
+
+[28:39] That's when Karen tapped out for the rest of the night. Yeah, Karen, Karen's never gonna play banana grams again. That's a very classic camera move right there, though. Two words. I gotta pee.
+
+[28:50] Alright. Uh okay. So this is likely ill-advised for a rational person, but I never claim to be rational. With that said, I've listened to a few episodes about the Aero Press. Did you ever try it?
+
+[28:59] Yes, I have tried the Aero Press. Uh for a while that was my nowadays, you can get like so okay, listen, listen, listen. When I go have coffee, there's coffee for enjoyment, and there's coffee to get your motor running so you can head out on the highway. And when I'm traveling, my assumption is unless I'm traveling to a place that's known for coffee, that the coffee that I have will be bad, and I'm just I need the coffee, A, for to wake up, and B for, you know, my good friend Peristalsis. Peristalsis is one of my favorite buddies to have with me when I go traveling.
+
+[29:32] Because traveling can really clog up the old tubes, if you know what I mean. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Doesn't traveling wreak havoc with your body? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except when we were in California, it was all good.
+
+[29:43] Well, you're from California. No. You was eating plenty of roughage and prunes and whatnot. No, no, all of us. That's the good food.
+
+[29:49] We're like regular. All of us. I don't know, Douglas. I didn't, I didn't I I I don't You didn't check in with us. I no, I don't check in with Pete.
+
+[29:56] I don't like to check in with my Oh, speaking of which, we're not doing it this week for classics in the field, but Alexander Kira's The Bathroom is the classic study on bathroom technology and uh urination and defecation technology from the late 60s, I think. If one of you wants to hear that as a classic in the field, just tweet me over on uh Alexander Akira's The Bathroom, and maybe we'll do that for later episodes. It's it's an intense book. Bidet technology? Uh no, not just bidets, all bathrooms.
+
+[30:27] Like in other words, like from like how your culture influences, like how bathrooms are made. Like, for instance, one of the reasons that that in the US, all Western cultures really can't use like full squat toilets, like the hole in the ground toilets, is because they require you to completely remove your pants to use them. So if you come from a culture where everyone is wearing something that can be hiked up around your uh waist, then it's reasonable to use the uh that kind of a uh a system. But that's why we can't do it, even though they're even though they're horrible on on your butt parts, right? You know, sit-down toilets are horrible on your butt parts.
+
+[31:08] Anyway, so all of this and more, including the the the physics of urine streams is in this book if someone wants me to do it uh eventually, because I think you know, we didn't do a good job at at the bar because we didn't have the money and it's about existing conditions. Someday I hope to be able to design a bathroom from scratch, and it will be glorious. Bathroom technology is so crappy. First of all, as an American, I'm ashamed as an American that our bathroom technology is so garbage compared to Japan. Still garbage compared to Japan.
+
+[31:37] But even so, like, like a properly. Now, when I was younger, I feel like I'm gonna go into it, even though I don't have the book of it. Dave, you don't know. When I was younger, I wanted to fully like lead insulate my bathroom so that no noise can make it in or out. So that like the the the people screaming at you, whatever couldn't come in.
+
+[31:55] There's no sort of in or out. The bathroom was a private, holy meditation zone, right? Uh and you didn't have to worry about making your own private noises while you're reading. I know, I know a billionaire who did that to all his bathrooms. Well, here's the problem.
+
+[32:08] As I get older, or as I had kids, I'm like, what if there's an emergency? You know what I mean? What if there's an emergency? My uh that's my biggest fear in life is getting murdered in the shower. And people are like, why?
+
+[32:18] And it's like it's not just like a movie thing, but when I'm in the bathroom, no thoughts. Just complete peace at whatever I'm doing. So I could sneak up behind you. You don't think in the shower? No.
+
+[32:30] No, not for at least the first 15 minutes. You blank? The water just hits me and it's just dude. My grandpa, like, my grandpa, you know the mean one? Yep.
+
+[32:37] He uh he didn't believe that showers, he didn't understand the restorative properties of showers. So he once, when I was in the shower, was like, that's enough water, and he reached in and turned off while I was in the shower. It would turn off after 10. But as someone who uses their brain to think, I can't think without a long shower. Dave's never naked ever in this.
+
+[32:59] Well, in the shower, I am. You said you your washcloth. I was I was being a little bit jokey. I am naked in the shower, but I do have the washcloth, and it's moving all the time. So anyway, uh so yes, I have tried the AeroPress.
+
+[33:14] I used to carry it with me and the grinder, but now because I've just accepted that I'm not gonna have great coffee, and since everyone has at least some form of espresso somewhere, like what I'll do is I'll research where the local shop is. I will get up extra early before I have to meet people down enough time that I can go down. I always order it. Give me a quad. They're like a what?
+
+[33:37] Give me four espresso shots in one cup, and then I drink it on the way back to the hotel room, then I do my you know daily routine and get it going. So that's what I do. I no longer carry coffee uh products with me. Although for camping, it might be. You have to start classics in the field now because five minutes.
+
+[33:51] Give me a second. More importantly, have you tried the mini presso or nano presso from Wakako? My co-worker, I don't know how you pronounce that. Wakeo, Wakako. Uh my co-worker has one, and it's pretty nifty for traveling, especially in countries where the coffee is hot garbage, which is hot garbage is my next band.
+
+[34:06] It's only garbage cover tunes. Which is a great I love garbage, the band. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but at work I'd rather lug my butt to the fourth floor to go to our legit espresso machine.
+
+[34:16] Also, do you think there are other useful things that can be made with this thing? Thanks in advance, Serena. I haven't used one. I was gonna get one. They're only like 30 bucks.
+
+[34:22] I should get one, but I'm on like a uh my house is full, and so like I'm on a not acquiring things kind of thing. You're you're in a giving away phase, right? Yeah, we gave away so much stuff and threw away so much stuff. Uh I threw we included Nastasia and I threw away the original, the original spinzall. I saw that.
+
+[34:41] Somebody picked it up. Uh no, nobody picked that up, but people did pick up like any other piece of garbage I put down. Hey, we've got George on the line. Putting through? Yeah, George, what do you got?
+
+[34:51] George, what's up? George. By the way, George George. Hello. Hello.
+
+[35:01] What's up? What up? Um, I need to know if there's reusable um CV bags. Uh there are. I have not used them.
+
+[35:10] They're silicone bags, but you know how like I said on the show many times that all of us have like kind of mental things. And like used bags gross me because they here's the thing. Like, let's say you had a reusable bag. It's a great idea. Silicone bags, and they're they're out there.
+
+[35:28] Silicone bags are out there. Reusable silicone sous V bags are out there. Uh if you had some sort of a rack that you could open it and dry it fully open, and actually a rack that you could put into your dishwasher so that it could wash on the inside of the bag effectively. Then it could be pulled out. Like you ever seen those baseball hat drying things?
+
+[35:51] Yeah, or the boots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the boot drying thing. If you had one of those, then I would say, let's do it. In fact, why don't we look into it?
+
+[35:58] And then and then I would be like, yeah, use it over and over and over again, because why wouldn't you use it over and over and over again? It's very easy, by the way, to seal inside of. So for those of you that don't want to look like you're using a vacuum bag, I don't know, let's say you don't want to use look like you're using a vacuum bag. I don't know, this is a like a hack. You can get a Ziploc bag, freezer Ziploc bag, seal it, put your put your product in, seal it, then cut off uh the corner on the bottom side of the bag, put that over the seal bar and run a ziploc through, and then you can have a vacuum-sealed Ziploc bag.
+
+[36:29] I'm not saying that I do that and pretend that it's not a vacuum bag. I'm saying you may do that. Um but uh so it would be trivial to figure out a way to um it'd be hard to get. So I'm trying to think of like using one of these bags in an actual commercial machine that uses a heat sealer, because the one-way valves have a certain have certain limitations in terms of like how hard of a vacuum they can suck because of the pressure differential you need to go across them. But you know, when you're actually sucking water vapor off and it's pumping water vapor out, it might work.
+
+[37:00] I'm gonna say I'm gonna go ahead and say that if you could wash it effectively, it'd be a good idea. I do know they exist, but I haven't experimented with that. I worry about the bag juice. That's my next band. Bag juice?
+
+[37:09] After hot garbage, like the other band is is bag juice. We we always talked about it for years, and I I don't know if reusable is there yet, but I wish there was compostable. That's kind of the compostable. I've looked into it. Like, for instance, there's sealable PLAs and and things like that that are, but the the most bioplastics that are completely compostable or degradable.
+
+[37:33] The problem with them is is they need to be fabricated. And we're out of time. They're all they're they're fabricated in a way that makes them hard to store for a long time and then use. They have to be used relatively quickly and then put out. Alright, so apparently I'm not being I'm being told that I can't do classics in the field, even though I have Ruth M.
+
+[37:57] Griswold's uh The Experimental Study of Foods, which is an underappreciated and still free to buy classic in the field. I was gonna talk about home economics, about experimentation. Maybe we do one episode that's just mostly classic, or maybe we get here on time. Dan Price wrote about, you know, wrote in about uh genetically modified chestnut trees. I had someone on co-Tee hot cheese, had a lot of stuff.
+
+[38:21] I was excited about the classics in the field. I have all the post-its being told I can't see it. What? Those are the biggest post-its I've ever seen. They're the only post-its I could find.
+
+[38:31] Really? Yeah. At the house. Because every time that I come to do the show, I bring a whole pack of post-its with me and then lose it. Alright.
+
+[38:40] So get ready for Ruth M. Griswold, uh, the experimental study of food next time, classics in the field on cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out.
+
+[39:03] Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com slash Heritage. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[39:30] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[39:55] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is made possible thanks to listeners like you. Wanna support independent food radio? Go to heritage radio network.org slash donate today. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Hartle, your host of Cooking Issues Coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from eh.
+
+[0:23] I don't know. For birth pizza in Bushwig Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
+
+[0:30] We got Matt back in the booth. I feel feel great. You're right. You are now a married man. Indeed.
+
+[0:36] Yeah, how'd that go? How'd the wedding go? It was amazing. Great. Yeah?
+
+[0:40] How's the food? Uh the food was good. Um lobster was very delicious. Many, many pictures of lobster on the internet from that wedding. Yeah.
+
+[0:48] Um highlight of the wedding, we pitted all of our tables of guests against each other in a cake decorating competition instead of having an actual cake. Okay. And it was the most fun. Was anyone good at it at all? First of all, this was Rhode Island, right?
+
+[1:02] Indeed. Now, uh this I forget, fancy Rhode Island? Are you like are you some sort of like Rockefeller like, you know, uh breakers Rhode Island, or is this like, you know, kind of more mellow people long ago? It was a lot like that, except it was at the town um owned rotunda on the beach. So it was um yeah, no, it wasn't like that at all.
+
+[1:18] Rotunda's kind of a funny word. So was anyone a good cake decorator, or were they all just like complete nightmares? I was very proud of the cakes. Yeah. Um they were they were things of beauty.
+
+[1:30] Uh somebody said, we have it on video, that it was like the the greatest episode of nailed it they'd ever seen. Cool. Nice. Well, let me ask you this. Was this your idea or is this a thing that all the kids are doing nowadays?
+
+[1:41] Uh I believe this was our idea. Okay, so here's what needs to happen. Wha like are are you uh a public or a private uh Instagram? Um, neither really. You don't have Instagrams right now.
+
+[1:52] I'm I tech I have it, I think. You no, so there's no record. So you like in other words, if you're trying to promulgate this new wedding idea, which are hashtag, what's your hashtag? We did not have a hashtag. Oh my god.
+
+[2:04] Hey, by the way, guys, yeah, dude runs like uh social media for a radio station. Nope. Boom! Don't I do not do that? Okay.
+
+[2:12] Not my job. All right, I'm messing with you. Nice. Well, uh, point being that like this is something that our listeners, in fact, we we know someone last week called in and is about to get married. Maybe this is something that other people might want to emulate.
+
+[2:27] Guests found it found fun. They found it fun. Who sprayed highly, highly colored icing all over their fancy party dress? Uh I don't I don't know that that happened, actually, but liar. I I I didn't see it if it did.
+
+[2:44] All right, well, if anyone knows how to find uh photos of uh Matthew's wedding, let us know. Oh, I have I have some photos of the case I can show you, but you know, photos aren't great for the radio. Yeah, you can put it up on our uh website, though. I'll put I'll put a picture or two on the website. Yeah, people can marvel.
+
+[2:59] All right. Uh so today on the radio program, we have uh special guests because I've been told that it's better to have special guests than not. Uh so it's uh now, you know, I think of him most as uh existing conditions bananagrams champion. And I believe we mentioned on the air last week, he was so good at bananograms on uh you know on our birthday. Six hours of banana grams.
+
+[3:24] He played six hours. Nastasio only played six hours of bananograms with him because she could not beat him. She would have played maybe 45 minutes of anything if she had beaten him, like even once, she would have been like, I'm better than this guy, and quit. Six hours later, had not beaten him. Uh his real job, I guess, is at the nomad.
+
+[3:43] Uh Robert Saxai, how are you doing? I'm very well, Dave. How are you? I'm I'm alright. So uh call in all of your nomad related questions or bananograms related questions.
+
+[3:54] Or uh I don't know if like well, I don't know how much you want to share about your personal self, but like you also have an interesting, like like atypical nomad uh backstory. I don't know how much you want to share that on the air, but uh welcome. Call in all questions relating to this to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So uh why don't you how much do you want to say about yourself?
+
+[4:17] I mean And what did you bring? So I was asked to either promote something or bring something. I really had nothing too interesting to promote, I think. So I decided to promote something I could bring, which is my favorite cocktail I feel like people like to hate on. Okay, which is cosmopolitan.
+
+[4:41] Right. And we're drinking them out of beer glasses. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. I've probably brought you my preferred glass where you're gonna be able to do that.
+
+[4:49] Now, uh for the cosmopolitan, uh, you know, for those of you that don't know, apparently there was some sort of fight, but the abs people, the the good folks at Absolute Vodka have given the uh kind of the imprimatur of inventor to Toby Chaquini, right, who's a bartender and professorial looking fellow here in uh New York. But uh the spec that the average person has that makes nowadays is like fundamentally unrelated to his uh original spec, in that his original spec is highly acidic. Very acidic. Highly acidic. A very big drink.
+
+[5:26] So are you so so the question being me, I'm sure you know like kind of like his spec and kind of what people make now you want to give people the spec so they can see the difference between the two specs so the spec I've seen that was his original spec was I believe it was was it one and a half or two of Bass Spirit and then one one one of citrus uh cranberry juice or cranberry cocktail and then uh triple side quantou or you know those orange liqueurs in that type bracket and the base spirit's supposed to be absolute citron in the original so and by the way like for those of you that don't know like bar bar bar people do bar people are like super at shorthand they're like come on two one one shut up what you know what I mean like what you know what I mean like jerk you know what I'm talking about uh yeah we we we get in this habit but like the story of the where it comes from is like huge like there's such a fight like some people say comes from the 30s like there's this uh mixing mixing co mixing cocktails or mixing drinks and elite bars but it was like more of a daisy variation that was raspberry lemon triple sec and gordon's then oh yeah that sounds exactly like a Cosmo this is why bartenders are so freaking dumb like swear to god everyone gets so bent about actually in 1893 someone once mixed a beverage with similar things. Only all the spirits were changed and the ratios were different. Like it's like, it's like jerk! No one was drinking these things in the freaking 70s, okay? All of a sudden, the 1980s rolled around and people started drinking them, and it came from a specific place, and that's it.
+
+[7:20] I mean, that's it. It's like, well, it's like, uh not your fault, Robert. But it's like, it's just like this is part of the joy of the cosmo, though. I mean people being like either they love Cosmos and they want to argue about which spec is correct, or they want to be like, oh, that's that terrible pink drink from Sex in the City. I don't want that drink.
+
+[7:42] That's that girl drink. But that's also the thing. One of the reasons I love Cosmos is because it's a perfectly decent, delicious vodka, sour whatever you want to call it a daisy or a kamikaze riff or whatever, like that's a good thing. Or just a drink. Or just a drink.
+
+[8:02] And uh people wanna Daisy Gendered drinks all the time. Daisy riff. Let me ask you a question's gendering drinks. Uh well, I I love a pink drink. Pink drinks are often delicious.
+
+[8:14] I I mean, pretty much sparkling champagne. If I see something pink across the bottom, I'll uh uh uh I want that. I I want that. Well, like I was actually at PDT last night and ordered a blue drink, even though I hate blue drinks. Just so I could have John DeBerry's famous drink, the shark.
+
+[8:29] Well, you know the rule with blue drinks. If it's blue order two. Uh if it's blue order two. Yeah. Do you know?
+
+[8:35] Uh we have a question uh later on. I'll I'll I'll get to it, but I uh I once asked someone, famous person actually, uh, hey, um, you know, the blue curacao is uh it's kind of a bad product. Why don't you just use a good orange liqueur and blue food coloring? And he he was not happy with me. Who was it?
+
+[8:58] Yeah. Uh we'll get to it later. But like you know what I mean? But it's like I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[9:04] Like, I'm not against fake coloring. It's just do you think the average person knows just straight up fake? Like, does the average person know that it is only F and D C blue? Number F I think two, by the way. I think everyone in this program who's listened to us knows that my favorite Nastasia moment of all time.
+
+[9:24] All time, my favorite Nastasia moment ever. Ever. Top five. Okay. Top five.
+
+[9:32] We'd ordered a can of uh F and D C Blue 2 powder, which P.S. if you don't do this, but if you somehow manage to slip your buddy a gel cap of F and D C Blue 2, we were using it for we were testing penetr uh color penetration tests for Bryant's is what we had it for. It's intensely concentrated. So if you if you give someone this capsule, which you will not do, uh they'll like poop poop green, like straight green, and they won't know why. They'll be like, oh my god, oh jeeps!
+
+[10:03] I only know people who've naturally done it by eating like more than two boxes of blueberry, a blueberry cereal, blueberry, not blueberry, blueberry cereal, in one sitting. So anyways, I'm pretty sure I've told this before, but I love it so much. So I go to lunch, I leave the bottle the can on the on the thing. I'd realized how concentrated it was, like literally like like milligrams color things. It's like very intense.
+
+[10:27] And uh, and so I was like, yo, Nastasia, don't touch this bottle. I'm going to lunch now. And I came back. Why would you do that though? Why wouldn't you just set the bottle somewhere with someone?
+
+[10:43] I set it on a shelf, but she knew it came. So this I come back from lunch. I'm like, hey, Nastasia, did you touch the bottle? She's like, nah. Nah.
+
+[10:55] I'm like, then why is your entire face blue? She wiped it all over her face because she had somehow touched her face and wiped blue all over her face. She looked like Violet Freaking Beauregard. It's my favorite because she was first, she was pulling the shaggy. I didn't do it.
+
+[11:15] And then like, well, she had blue all over her face. But I feel like if you get anything in the powdered form, it's always like the most volatile form when you like, because you get like anything powdered. I feel like people get powdered forms of stuff from like they're the people who go to like chemists, not like Walgreens. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's so intense.
+
+[11:38] But like, whenever I opened something like that, I like, you know, we remember like after that, you were like, I'm getting gloves. Like you get gloves, we open it. We'd be careful not to sneeze or breathe too hard when we opened it, and we like triple bagged it when we were done. I wonder what happened to that stuff. I think you threw it out.
+
+[11:51] Uh I think I threw it out. Nastasi was always like, can we put it in a joke app and give it to Clifford? With one of our interns. Can we, can we, can we put it in a gel cap and give it to Clifford? No!
+
+[12:00] No! I'm the big blue. I don't believe in in messing with people's insides without letting them know. I believe you should let people know if you're messing with their insides. Yeah.
+
+[12:11] Okay, make the drink. I have a pairing. No, no, no, mouth noises. Crinkles don't gonna get in trouble again. Why should I use this golden shaker?
+
+[12:20] Yeah. Yeah. So, which of so that's Toby's uh spec, which by the way, people, is a high acid beverage. And low sugar. So uh how much how much uh of the uh of the orange liqueur and which orange liqueur did he originally spec?
+
+[12:35] Was he quantch? Uh or is he a straight triple six? I think it was triple sex. Okay, so triple sex gonna be higher, most triple sex are gonna be higher in sugar than Quantro, right? So if you try to make Toby's recipe with Quantro, it will be toothjarringly acidic, right?
+
+[12:53] Maybe burn your throat out with a higher sugar level triple sec maybe, but still you're talking about like an acidic drink. So uh so what spec are you using? Are you using a chicken spec? Uh no. I'm using more of like modern adaptations I've seen, which is uh lighter on citrus and then kind of citrus almost as a modifier and then a split of the orange liqueur and the cranberry.
+
+[13:24] So lighter on the citrus meaning less acid. Less acid, so t if Toby knew that we were doing this now, you know, if he cared, he would f he would jump in here and throttle all of us. I mean he gets virulently angry. Does he? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:41] Oh no, I've never talked to him about it. Just you should talk to him about it. Go ahead, Megan. Alright. Alright.
+
+[13:49] Robert's using a golden. He's got a golden shaker. It's ours, Robert. And Nastasia has which we will not eat uh on near the microphone. Cracker Jack birthday cake popcorn.
+
+[14:11] I'm gonna say this about Cracker Jack. I love Cracker Jack. It needs more. Of course it comes with a prize. It's freaking Cracker Jack.
+
+[14:17] But uh, it better come with the prize. If it doesn't come with the prize, I'm gonna jump through this blast. The problem with Cracker Jack is it's not as good as you want it to be. It just doesn't have enough of a coating on it. Isn't aren't you the person to stash you do not like kettle corn?
+
+[14:30] I should probably get to a question on the who do I know that doesn't like kettle? Is it freaking Dax doesn't Dax doesn't like kettle corn? I'm not a big kettle corn guy. Why not? What the hell's wrong with you?
+
+[14:38] Have I told you guys a story about how uh my family now gets angry at my impatience? Last week when it was super hot. They only do that now. Well, I've just kind of realized last week uh when it was super hot, my uh Dax, we were ordering Chinese food because that's what uh that's what they want. Oh, doing the do it never possible to do a good pour that way.
+
+[14:59] Robert's trying to do the uh just barely crack the tin. Good wash line there, Robert. Professional. Professional. So like Dax orders soup when it's a hundred degrees outside.
+
+[15:14] And I started, I was like, soup! Why do you order soup? And then like all of a sudden now Dax is like, Dad, you're so aggro. And now all he says to me is aggro, Dave. Now all he says to me is the word soup.
+
+[15:25] He makes fun of me. He's like, soup. I'm like, yeah. And by the way, he hated the soup. It's too hot.
+
+[15:30] Egg drop? Egg drop? No. Some sort of like I don't know some sort of noodle soup. It's like that's not the right weather for noodle soup.
+
+[15:38] Alright. Cheers. Cheers. All right. If you uh if you eat the popcorn into the mic, uh, Robert, you will be murdered by anyone that finds you.
+
+[15:48] I'll tell them where to find you and they'll go for it. People don't like them where to find me. Oh, that's true. You told them where they can harass me at my job. Yeah, what days?
+
+[15:55] Which is where I'm what days are you there? Oh, it varies. We don't have set schedule. So they I can't tell them exactly they have to come again and again in order to murder you for the cracker jacket. I guess so.
+
+[16:07] Alright, now, before I get into serious cooking questions, this is delicious. Yeah, it's really good. Uh uh, where do you where do your bananogram skills come from? Um I grew up in a very competitive family that really use games as a way of just passive aggressively berating each other and making each other feel like they're intellectually inferior. Uh and word games are very good at that because you can really like up your intellectual prowess by being like, look at my vast knowledge of the English language.
+
+[16:47] But when I learned it, it wasn't called bananograms. I feel like this is a very like make it accessible, like make people look like, oh, there's a banana bag. They'll buy that. When I played it as a kid, it was a game called scissory. Syzzogy, which is a word.
+
+[17:03] It is a word. And a bad movie. Interesting. That I didn't know. But it came in this big physics is the movie.
+
+[17:09] Syzygy is the real word, yeah. This giant kind of ornate velvet bag with these gold ropes. Then there are these soft red plastic tiles. They have these very ornate kind of like tarot card looking images on all the wildcard tiles that are not played at the book or index. No, no wild cards.
+
+[17:32] Nastasia hates wild cards. As we know from last week. No QI, no wild cards. Yeah, no two-letter words that you don't use in normal daily speech. No spellings of letters.
+
+[17:43] No. Yeah. No. She won't even allow E L, which is really elevated rail, which is. What about AA, the volcanic rock?
+
+[17:44] No. Do you use that? And when do you talk about that? Normal people, Nastasia, you scrap. Explain the people that it's a word.
+
+[17:59] It's a valid word. And it's a good way to store extra vowels. You know what I'm saying? For when you get when you get consonant shafted. But I feel like the real So playing Lord games like a lot of Scrabble growing up, the game upwards.
+
+[18:13] Did you guys ever play that? Is that some sort of 3D Scrabble? It was Scrabble where you could build on top of tiles to change words. So it got a little frustrating. Um with bananograms, I feel like the real skill set is don't be married to anything you've made.
+
+[18:35] Like you have to constantly be shifting, moving your board around, like sacrifice half your board, and just like trust that you can make it. Kind of like recipe development. Also being like very strategic with when you dump, which is where you put one tile back that you don't want to use and you draw three more. I never I don't really even care. I never dump early.
+
+[19:08] I'm always just like, I'm gonna never dump. Robert is now lounging. This is your banana gram's lounge. No, he's eating the popcorn. Oh, he's eating the popcorn away from the mic.
+
+[19:18] So after you eat it, come back and let us know how it is. I have some questions, I will get to it. Uh birthday cake. Okay. This one's from uh Ana, right?
+
+[19:29] Because pronounced like A is an ABC from Dublin, Ireland. By the way, I have uh Father Bill staying with me now, the cocktail priest. He's a priest. Priests, when they go around, they stay with people. That's how it works.
+
+[19:41] Was he coming back from Tales? Yeah, he's coming back from Tails. He's going back. No, Dax is a camp. He's sleeping in Dax's bed.
+
+[19:48] This is not important on the air. Anyway, he's the cocktail priest and he's going back to Dublin. Can you still stay with people? What? Like they get freeze days at people's houses?
+
+[20:01] What? What kind of lesson is this? Do you charge your friends to say it your house? Nastancia doesn't. Like, if you've met Nastasia for 25 minutes, you can stay at her house for two years.
+
+[20:13] Make sure that you drink all of her wine and ask her to go get groceries for you. Right? Yeah. And or make sure that you play loud music when she's on the conference call. If you ever have to do business with Nastasia or myself, just realize that you're gonna have to hear some sort of stupid crap in the background because neither of us can be bothered to go to a quiet place to have our conference call.
+
+[20:34] And whichever one of us is making the noise, the other one will yell at them like incessantly for being such a jackwad. But we're changing that. We're changing that. How are we gonna change that? I don't know.
+
+[20:43] Are you gonna turn into a different person? Am I gonna turn into a different person? Oh, okay. So I I would say we were yelling at each other, to be fair. And I said what I said to Nastasia is it?
+
+[20:55] No one thinks we're grown adults! Everyone thinks we're freaking jokers! We're not comedians. I was like, yeah, well, she's like, people like us. I was like, people like jokers, but we're not comedians.
+
+[21:04] We're supposed to be in business. And she was like, yeah, you know, anyway, so like this is the kind of telephone conversation I have while I'm waiting for my bags. Anyway, okay. So You know, and when you called me, I was on the beach, and nobody could get through. No text could be sent.
+
+[21:14] No, I couldn't like call anybody. For some reason, your call came through and it was like pristine. 3G, like one bar. Like the yelling was just like. Loud and clear.
+
+[21:29] Loud and clear. Yeah. CRISP. CRISP. I have to say this, people.
+
+[21:35] The argument started over, and listeners will know. Over. I'm just gonna say this straight up. I'm just gonna put this out there. So God, it's not about cooking.
+
+[21:46] Jesus. Okay, listen. All right. It's about Hawkins. Nastasia wants to make this product called the Wine Santa.
+
+[21:52] Now, the wine Santa, for those of you, I don't know, that have never heard this show before. Yeah, that's as Robert says that nightmare machine is a is a large, poorly made animatronic Santa. That can also be a zombie for Halloween. Okay, well, what you have to buy a different animatronic figure. It's not like Fudgy the Freaking Whale, where it's like either Santa or Fudgy the Whale or a zombie, you know, or whatever.
+
+[22:16] It is what it is. Anyway, you have to go buy wine zombie and wine Santa. Although wine zombie makes a lot more sense. Yeah. Anyways, uh because why wouldn't they puke out wine?
+
+[22:28] They don't need it. They they need brains. Right? I mean, Santa just had too much, but he's typically eating milk. You would think that Santa would be puking up milk punch.
+
+[22:35] Anyway, milk punch Santa. Uh but point being what wine Santa is is a poorly made animatronic Santa who is holding a a punch bowl, also poorly fabricated, with a pump coming out of his mouth such that don't give away the IP. Everyone has seen it! You've already released it. There's no IP, you've released it legally, it's done.
+
+[23:00] Anyway, so then you have the trademark. So like uh then a tube is coming out of the mouth, and uh he's vomiting liquids into this bowl. Could be non-alcoholic. She once did a lemonade for kids, puking lemonade Santa. Uh, and uh for for good measure, typically when people uh try to dispense it, they drip it all up in his beard, and so his beard is covered with uh whatever sort of disgusting product has been going through.
+
+[23:28] And also typically he is uh has a uh uh an unfortunate, shall we say, center of gravity, such that he will tip forward, like spill all of his drink, and then continue puking onto the ground, thankfully face down, so we know he won't choke on his own vomit while continuing to dance his animatronic dance on the ground. Uh if uh Stephen Hoppe from uh La Penultima is there, maybe Santa'll get punched in the chest, his head may fly off. I don't know, may happen, has happened. Anyway, so this is Nastasia's business idea, and Nastasia believes that everyone on earth wants one of these things, and it's gonna be the next Billy Bass. For those of you that don't remember, Billy Bass is the fish, the dead fish on the wall, who flaps his head and tail back and forth and sings.
+
+[24:17] I forget what Billy Bass sings. Does anyone remember what Billy Bass sings? Take me to the river. Yeah, throw me in the yeah. Take me to the river.
+
+[24:24] Yeah. Everyone bought one of those because they're they were 12 bucks. So what do we what's our target price for this, Nastasia? $50. That's not fuck.
+
+[24:33] Excuse me. I didn't do it, I didn't finish it. I didn't finish it. I didn't finish it. That's how angry.
+
+[24:39] Family show. Family show. Record setting. Family show. So that is not to pretend that I was gonna say something nice all along.
+
+[24:51] That is not feasible. Not feasible. Not feasible. Like you're looking at at least a hundred and twenty dollar problem. Okay.
+
+[25:00] Right? To sell to people. So the question is is that she thinks this is the big money idea. And I was like, well, in all the years that you've done it, which is like to be fair, four years. So what if you get it branded?
+
+[25:10] She already has brand. Oh, brand sponsor. This is an idea. But like, we've made a grand total of zero dollars. I put all my money into it.
+
+[25:18] Oh my god, that's not the case. That's true. I put a lot of money into it. How much money? $3,000.
+
+[25:24] That's a lie. What $3,000 have you put into it? All the Santa's, the trademark, the flepping it around. Slepping it around? You're just gonna hit that number up.
+
+[25:32] No, I I have to do that. So we've lost, we've lost $3,000. No, it's my money. $3,000 has been lost. Invest.
+
+[25:40] Of my money. It's it has nothing to do with your money. I'm not saying my money, I'm saying in general, $3,000 has gone down the poop shoot, and no money has come in, and yet Nastasia believes that the big money is in wine santa. So here's what I agreed to do. First of all, she's like, I'm gonna call the guys in China.
+
+[25:58] It's like dealing with Booker, like with like a two year old. So anyway, so she calls up the company in China that we deal with, and I was like, don't call them because we're new with them, and we want them to think that we're serious people because they work on a contingency basis. In other words, they only make money when we get product shipped from China, right? So I was like, I don't want them to think that they're investing their time poorly, so don't go with some sort of crazy idea that Nintendo. Yes, and this precipitated the argument.
+
+[26:33] But this is because Nastasia somehow thought that that was okay because what I said to her is I was like, look, you I know because she hates uh crowdfunding. So I was like, look, I don't think there's an actual market of people who will pay $129, let's say, for a an animatronic uh vomiting Santa, right? That can also be a zombie and a football player. It can't also be that because that's a separate item. No, no, no, no, Dave.
+
+[26:57] You it comes with three outfits. What? It's an animatronic fit. Now it's a hundred, now it's $160. Okay.
+
+[27:04] Would you buy one, Robert? Yeah. No, he would not. Come on. Would you buy one, Matt?
+
+[27:11] Well, I thought Robert was going for his wallet right now. Anyway, point being that I was like, this is the kind of thing people like to say they're gonna buy, but will not buy. So what I said was, we need to make about five thousand for an item like that, in order to make it, you need to make about five thousand of them, right? Because think about it this way I said do the numbers for the guys in in China, our company in China to work with us, if they're gonna make, I'm just giving you odd numbers in case you guys want to build something. If you have an agent, a good agent, they're gonna take roughly 15% of what's called FOB, freight on board.
+
+[27:40] So whatever you're paying the factory in China to port, let's say in Shenzhen, which is where animatronics are made, if you uh you're gonna pay them uh 15% of whatever that number is, not the retail number. So let's say you're gonna make 5,000 of them. That's all they get. 5,000 times uh whatever your price in China is times 0.15. That's what they're making.
+
+[28:04] So they have to do a calculation in their head. Is this worth it? You know what I mean? So they're checking and see if it's worth it. They can't know because no one knows what the market is.
+
+[28:13] So I said, what I said is that if you you hate Kickstarters, but if if the if the boondoggler, who for some reason is also on board with the wine Santa, Boondogger's Rebecca Apokovic's RPR person for our our mighty mighty spins all and sears all PR person. Call someone the boondogger and not think they're on board for the wine Santa. It's true. Robert, this is why you win a bananogram so much. This is why you're a winner.
+
+[28:39] I'm a winner. I can feel it. We were talking about Beck before, right? Yes. Uh, because I'm the loser.
+
+[28:45] Anyway, so anyway, the point is, is I was like, if you can kick start this sucker and get 5,000 orders, such that I know that 5,000 people want this. If you can somehow create the media poop storm and have this be the next electric cooler. Remember the electric cooler that sold all that, all that five million dollars in electric coolers? Like if you can pre-sell 5,000 wine Santa's, I will gladly go into the wine Santa business. So she immediately called up uh our folks in China and was like, yo.
+
+[29:14] We need to know how much it costs. You can't know how much it costs until you make a prototype. You're gonna make the prototype. I need a wine zombie by October. Wait, what do you mean by October?
+
+[29:24] Why buy October? I'm gonna have a Halloween party. Oh, personally, why don't you um we have an active chat discussion going on. I'm sure. Can we get you to weigh in here?
+
+[29:35] Sure. Uh the original question from Michael was can you pressurize an ISI whipper with a tank of uh nitrogen instead of using all those tiny cartridges? Nitrogen or nitrous? Well, N2, sorry. Is what he said.
+
+[29:49] Go ahead. Like the chemical formula, N2 is all he said. That's nitrogen. Thank you. Yes, you can.
+
+[29:55] And I think Dave's talked about it before. Using a CO2 adapter would be an adapter. Uh and then Elvin said, I've definitely heard of adapters for soda streams and drink maids before, but a cursory search doesn't reveal anything similar for ISI. Did you say a crispy search? Cursory.
+
+[30:10] Oh. Uh I know for a fact someone used to make it. It was unconscionably expensive. Uh if you know anyone with uh machine shop skills, it's fair. Oh my God.
+
+[30:22] Banana crap. I hope you don't crunch it in the mic. I hope you don't have any sort of vermin problems in your studio. Oh, the popcorn. Great.
+
+[30:33] It was the popcorn. There are no vermin in the city. And you know what the good news is? Mice don't like popcorn. Oh wait.
+
+[30:39] Oh. Oh, wait, they love popcorn. Don't like word games, love popcorn. You spilled the wrong thing. Nastasi is like Nastasi's like, hey, uh I want to be nice to the vermin.
+
+[30:53] Uh don't worry, I got you, Nastasia. Yeah, so uh anyone with basic machine shop skills can do it. You have I like how whatever. I'm not gonna even get into it. Uh uh the problem you have to worry about is you really want to make sure that um that part is well built.
+
+[31:10] The part that connects onto the pressure adapters. Now the good news is is that you're using a regulator, so it's never going to be as high of a pressure as it would be with a cartridge. But literally that's the part that killed that lady, that blogger. That's the part that blew up, I believe, shot off and hit her in the I forget whether it was chest or face and and killed her. So you just want to be careful.
+
+[31:28] But anyone with basic machine shop skills can do it. There used to be a company that built it. When they they charged a lot. I don't remember the name of it. They might've been out of business, but you can you can find it.
+
+[31:40] Uh I actually made my own tops for the whippers out of a very high grade food food grade urethane from a company called Hapco. So the way to do that is to just make the best way to do that is to make a mold uh with silicone out of the original, then disassemble it, you know, make a plastic positive, then machine the plastic positive, then recast it with all of the adapters that you need. That's what I did, but it is kind of a pain in the butt. So maybe it's not worth it for you to do that. I don't know.
+
+[32:15] What's the FOB on that? The FOB, the Freight on Board Zero, because I had to pay for all of it. Uh by the way, speaking of um Booker and Dax uh making things and existing conditions, in the next two weeks, we will be announcing our the Booker and Daxes. It's not the next project that Nastasia working on in China, but it's gonna be our next thingamajig. Our next potentially patent pending thingamajig, right, Nastasia?
+
+[32:41] Next two weeks. And I accidentally texted someone who didn't know about it, and Nastasia threatened to murder them. Not even wait for them to go to sleep. Threatened to murder them if if they talked. The person is currently in Thailand and he said, Who am I gonna tell?
+
+[32:58] The monkey that's sitting at my window? I was like, Don't you tell that monkey? You called it a thieving thieving effing monkey. Everyone knows those window monkeys are thieves. Everybody knows this.
+
+[33:09] I've never even been there and I know that they're thieves. Anyway, did we ever get to this question? No. All right. Aina called in.
+
+[33:16] Uh thanks for the episodes. I'm listening in reverse order, and I'm currently back to 127 from 2000 uh and thirteen. Jeez. What are we on now, Matt? Uh 376.
+
+[33:27] Jesus. Uh second, my question. I've been looking into bottling low alcohol drinks and have found uh and ha and having them be shelf stable. For this, I plan on using a corny keg and a counterpressure bottle filler to minimize foaming and carbonation loss. For my research, the alcohol would need to be in the 18% range or so to be guaranteed uh a preservative.
+
+[33:45] I don't think it needs to be quite that high if it's gonna be carbonated, but yeah. Um which is too high for the alcoholic soda vibe. I'm uh looking for 5 to 8% ABV. Uh what would be the best way of guaranteeing that the bottles won't spoil or start fermenting? I was considering sodium benzoate, but it is ineffective against some yeast and unfortunately reacts with ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C people, creating carcinogenic benzene.
+
+[34:07] First of all, you gotta sell it. If you want it, you say delicious benzene. You don't say carcinogenic benzene, you say delicious benzene, and then people aren't worried about it. Uh FYI, it is true that uh ascorbic acid, sodium benzoate has a couple of problems. One, it tastes bad.
+
+[34:23] Two, uh, like when and so like if you get um if you get sauerkraut that's preserved with sodium benzoate, like uh I don't like it. You know what I mean? It tastes bad. Um the other problem is is that with us uh in in conjunction with ascorbic acid, vitamin C, which is used in a lot of it's present in a lot of citruses, and I use it as an antioxidant all the time. It's my favorite antioxidant.
+
+[34:47] Uh I prefer it infinitely over all sulfites because not everyone tastes sulfites. Not only are many people allergic to sulfites, or uh you know, either they are or they believe they are, that they're allergic to it, gives them headaches. But uh people's taste thresholds for sulfites are widely different. And so uh even if you can't taste the level of sulfites that are in your drink, other people can, and sometimes free sulfurous volatiles can be created and cause a stink. I'm not gonna call you out ciders who I've had this happen to, but it's happy.
+
+[35:18] Anyway, so the other problem is uh is that with ascorbic acid, which is my antioxidant of choice, as I just said, uh you can create uh benzene, but it's in the presence of heat. So typically at you know, refrigeration and low shelf temperatures, you're not gonna be causing that reaction to happen, but it's something to think about. But the fact that a lot of people don't like it and that it doesn't taste good, you know, the benzene is just an added kind of reason not to do it. The other thing that's uh effective against many yeast things is potassium sorbate. Potassium sorbate, I don't think is as problematic as uh benzoate, it's usually not, I think, 100% effective uh on its own.
+
+[35:58] Um, but that that's something to look into. Uh the other thing you could and you mentioned this, um pasteurization is sometimes used by hard cider makers to halt fermentation early in bottled cider. Would that be a panacea in this situation? And the answer the sh the answer is both yes and no. So when Estasi and I were looking to make sodas, God remember that?
+
+[36:20] What a nightmare. Remember how terrible that was? Remember like how like we didn't want to get up in the morning and we're like, I gotta duck dog, I've got oh my god, soda. Like making it's like it's just like it's just get to our question. Okay, so like uh the problem with it is this you can bottle your product and then heat pasteurize it, right?
+
+[36:41] And you only need temperatures of about uh 60 degrees Celsius, I'll give you Celsius since you're in Dublin, uh, or like 140 degrees uh Fahrenheit for us here in the US of A. And uh the problem though is that the pressure in a carbonated drink goes up drastically when it's heated to those temperatures. And so there's a limit on how carbonated something can be. So just as an FYI, like a very when you talk to a professional bottler, they're gonna ask you this. Hey, I mean, with whatever accent they happen to have in Dublin, hey, how many volumes of CO2 you want in that?
+
+[37:18] And a volume of CO2 is two grams of uh carbon dioxide per liter of beverage, right? And the correct answer for Nastasi and I was like, we want like four, four and a half. And they're like, nah. Like the most you're gonna be able to get with heat pasteurization in a bottle because they're worried about the bottles rupturing. So, first of all, you're gonna have to buy a more fancy, expensive, thicker bottle.
+
+[37:41] But the most I think that they can do is about two and a half, three volumes of carbonation. So that's like maybe up to like six grams per liter of uh CO2 in your beverage before they're gonna be worried about stuff exploding in the tunnel pasteurizer. Now, you could just wing it and pray and then throw away the ones that have uh shattered and sprayed glass into your eye. But uh, you know, I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily recommend it. But it is a good solution if you like what I like to call West Coast carbonation, i.e.
+
+[38:12] light carbonation, i.e. poor carbonation. Uh but no, I love you, West Coast, come on. But the um, so you can do it. Uh another thing is that it everything depends on whether you're doing a couple or you're doing this professionally.
+
+[38:25] If you're gonna do just a couple of them instead of professionally, you could try, because if you're gonna do it on your own, you don't need it to be validated by a third party. None of this stuff's gonna kill you, it's just gonna taste bad, right? If it starts fermenting, it's just gonna get drier, more highly carbonated, and perhaps explode. It will not most likely, with the flavors that are in these kinds of things, actually spoil in a way that will cause danger. It will just be a lower quality product.
+
+[38:50] Just like just like myself. And uh so you can run some experiments. Now, what I've always wanted to do is build a and it it's hard, it's expensive to do commercially because to do commercially, things need to be done quickly and with high throughput. But a UV pasteurizer, if you buy a bunch of high-intensity UV lights and put them in a box, and you're willing to have these things sit there under UV light, you can just test how long it takes to zap all the bad stuff in it uh without it spoiling and without it changing the flavor. And I've had UV pasteurized uh cider before, and it is a lot better than heat pasteurized cider.
+
+[39:25] So, anyway, good luck with that. Good luck with that, right? All right. What do you have to say about the birthday uh cracker jacks? It's good.
+
+[39:35] It's there you go. What's your usual way of well? Let's let's know where you're from. Uh I am from uh the exact bullseye of the continental United States, St. Louis, Missouri.
+
+[39:48] Well, the exact middle is Steelville, Missouri. Steelville, Missouri? Is this including Alaska and Hawaii? No, the continental United States. Alright, so you've just said that everyone in Alaska and Hawaii can go hang.
+
+[40:02] Alaska might be counted. Because it's on the continent. We don't count that though. You mean I'm pretty sure you probably mean the lower 48. Probably.
+
+[40:11] Yeah. All right. I don't know. This is something like people say there. It's not like hard facts.
+
+[40:16] Did you go back there for the eclipse? I wanted to fly to St. Louis to see the eclipse. Which I did not. The last one we had, the last really uh big one, like St.
+
+[40:24] Louis was right at the good zone. Right on the epicenter. Yeah. Did you go back? I did not.
+
+[40:29] Is it because you hate fun things? No, it's because I am a workaholic. I was at Tales of the Cocktail. And by the way, uh congratulations to our sister Bar Katana Kitten for beating us at uh best new bar i in in America. Congratulations to Massa and the whole team over there at Katana Kitten.
+
+[40:48] But uh when you go to Tales of the Cocktail, if you ever go, it's the big, you know, festival, I don't know, trade show, uh convention, cocktail convention in New Orleans when it's you know, horribly hot. I went there and like this this person was like, I wanted to go talk to someone and she's like, Oh yes, we have a three-room experience. And the end of the experience was the one person I just want to say, Hey, how are ya? And then leave, right? Because that's all I like to do.
+
+[41:11] Hey, how are you? I'm still alive, how are ya? And leave, right? So she's like, There's a three-room experience. So I look her straight in the face, I was like, I hate experience.
+
+[41:20] And she was like, What? I was like, I h I hate it. She's like, just go to the third room. I was like, I just want to say it's still alive and well in and Roberta's breastfeeding at the table. Nastasia Nastasia It's been a while.
+
+[41:37] You but you're people are allowed to do that. What? People are allowed to do that. Baby gotta eat. I don't mind when people breastfeed.
+
+[41:47] Then why'd you bring it up? If you don't mind it, why'd you bring it up? I I don't want to talk about it. Wait, wait, you don't want to talk about it? No.
+
+[41:56] You brought it up. It's just when you're eating as an e as an eater. A child is eating. Yeah, but I would think you'd want to like cover the breastfeeding with like a blanket. How um how is it that I'm the one that thinks you're crazy.
+
+[42:15] Our heads. Yeah, yeah. Just all of us put a cowl over your head and your plate. As though we're eating ordelon? Yeah.
+
+[42:21] If you had told me that this conversation was going to take place, but you had like stripped the names away and you were like, guess who said which thing? You wouldn't. I would have gotten that wrong. Yeah. Well, that's the thing.
+
+[42:33] Like, this is why I've said many times, and I've had people t like tweet me, tweet storms on how I'm mean and crazy. Tweet storms on how I'm too mean and too crazy. Nastasia is the only frat boy I hang out with. For real. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:52] Like for real people. Unbelievable. She's like, Nastasi's like, these women, what are they doing with the breastfeeding at the table? Am I right? Kip hand me a beer.
+
+[43:04] What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? Baby's gotta eat. It's incredibly painful to hold it in when the time is gonna be. Do you want her to have to go to the freaking bathroom here?
+
+[43:21] What? She just wants a small pup tin over here. Yeah. You just want you just want the mother to be encased in an envelope of shame. That's definitely not true.
+
+[43:35] God. I think uh Frat Boy and Nastasia might be interested in joining this conversation of the chat. They're they're discussing what your favorite shot in a beer combo is. Oh, no. I do sho I don't drink beers.
+
+[43:47] I have pictures of you drinking beers. Yes, yeah. You don't want to get in on this? My public statement is I didn't know. Nastasia prefers light, flavorless beers as all frat boys do.
+
+[43:59] She will have a uh corona, and she probably won't shoot it, but she'll probably have it like a shot of whiskey. That's something she doesn't want gin. She just doesn't want gin. Um she sent me a picture saying what don't talk about Frank. Empty no, empty bottle of Medley Brothers.
+
+[44:19] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I would say, even though it's a terrible pairing, uh a shot of uh high proof whiskey and a corona. But uh why is that a terrible pairing? Because it just is. I mean Nastasia's not like an agave shot person.
+
+[44:34] She's not gonna sit there and do the do the tequila or the master. I would do tequila. But I would choose a gin shot over a tequila shot. I don't like it. Nastasia doesn't like gin.
+
+[44:42] I don't like gin. Okay, questions. All right. So this person, it's not a food question. We'll come to it later then.
+
+[44:49] Let's do a food question, right? Oh, here's one. Not not a question. Uh this is uh Jesse McMillan enjoys classics in the field. Oh, yeah, which we'll make sure we get to today.
+
+[44:57] Uh it's already one, Dave. Okay, hold a sec. Dan Price wrote in about chestnuts, and you know, we can't say chestnut. Yeah, Nastasia looks at me and goes, these nuts. Like, she can't help it either.
+
+[45:09] She's like, Dave, you're a jerk. She looks at me and goes, D's nuts, right? Which is a I mean, talk about classics in the field. That whole album. D's nuts.
+
+[45:25] No, man. And with with the uh prank phone call that uh Snoop has at the beginning. Yes. Did you get that to the other day? What?
+
+[45:33] D smells nuts. And then she hangs up on him. Classic. Uh just thought, if Dave didn't see it, that this article might be of interest. It's about the efforts to make genetically modified uh GMO American chestnut trees designed to resist the chestnut blight.
+
+[45:49] And the article is by Rowan Jacobson, who wrote The Geography of the Oyster, which is uh a book I think that um I read and uh has done a did a lot to kind of help the resurgence of everyone knowing and caring every little nuance about every little oyster. Robert, what's your favorite oyster? My favorite oyster? Um what's your least favorite oyster? What oysters do you not like?
+
+[46:13] I mean I'm more of a northeastern coast, like as salty and briny and blue as I can get them. Oh yeah. I don't want a small sweet oyster. I feel like so I'm not I'm not a I'm not a Kumi guy, I'm not a Kumamoto guy. I don't need my stuff to taste like melons or cucumbers.
+
+[46:31] Sometimes I like them as like a palette cleanser between my East Coast oysters. Like if someone else wants them, like I'll have like one or two. Yeah, I'll eat one. Yeah, right. But if I want those flavors on my oyster, I will just make a fine, I will make a fine Brunoise of that crap and put it onto my oyster, as I have done.
+
+[46:49] Yeah. You know what would be good? You know what'd be good? Lightly brined, like very fine, very fine cubes of cucumber tossed in like it like in it in a minionette on top of an East Coast oyster. That'd be good.
+
+[47:01] Sounds great. You have never had a plate, I've never had a a real ballon, like a like a plate oyster. Yeah. I hear I would not like them. I have not been presented with one myself.
+
+[47:12] Okay, so anyway, so he wrote that, but then he wrote this article, which you can look at, P.S. Mag, which I don't know what that is. Uh most controversial tree in the world. Now, uh here's the thing. So uh for those of you that I don't know, don't know anything about trees, uh American chestnut was one of our kind of ubiquitous forest trees.
+
+[47:32] It provided delicious chestnuts, it provided uh good wood. Um, so we used it for carpentry, we used it for um nuts. It was nice tree, lovely. Uh it was completely wiped out in the early 20th century by a fungus that invades the tree bark, causes it to split, uh, creates uh oxalic acid, and then it keeps getting worse. Finally, the tree gets girdled, it dies.
+
+[48:00] Funny thing is, chestnuts are theoretically very resilient. So, what happens is is they shoot up shoots of the old tree around the dead tree. Those live for like 10, 15 years, they never become big, then they die. And it happens over and over again. So even now you can find remnants of these old chestnut trees with these young shoots that will shoot up and then die, shoot up and then die.
+
+[48:21] They're slowly dying out because the roots can't produce enough reserves to stay alive. So within 20 or 30 years, all of those original chestnuts will be dead, and the chestnut will be wiped out. Of all of the bazillion chestnut trees that existed back in the day, none of them, none, not one. And they've searched. So people have been searching the forests forever to try to find some lone, I'm here, chestnut tree that is resistant to American chestnut tree that is resistant to the blight.
+
+[48:49] The evolutionary miracle. Right, the miracle, like you know, the uh the you know, whatever Will Smith was in that movie where he was the last guy, right? Like like wherever that is, like that chestnut tree, never been found. They've tried breeding the American chestnut with the Asian chestnut uh trees to try to get one that is more like an American but uh still resistant. Never found.
+
+[49:11] Never been uh possible. So what they did is these folks were like, well, I will just I will just insert a gene from wheat into this tree, and maybe the tree will be resistant. And guess what? It is. And so now they have this uh genetically modified tree that is uh resistant to the blight, right?
+
+[49:31] Now the problem is uh they want to put this into the forest, and no one has ever released in a non-plantation way, right? In a completely uncontrolled back into the forest wild thing for no money, by the way. This is not a money thing, right? No one's gonna make money. Not patented.
+
+[49:45] Not uh no, I mean they're just gonna release it into the wild. It's like, you know, free of free of uh IP restraints, let's put it that way. Uh but no one's done it before, and so there has been an outcry, an outcry. Uh and there is a um, I forget the name of it. I had it last week because I was gonna talk about it last week, but it's like some website with a very easy to search for name like StopGMO trees.org.
+
+[50:07] Now, there are geomotrees that are are problematic, right? So like they they're trying to introduce eucalyptus trees to places that are colder than where eucalyptus wants to grow in in plantations, and why the hell would you want to introduce eucalyptus trees anywhere where they don't automatically grow? Talk to anyone in California about introducing a eucalyptus tree and they'll punch you in the face. Harold McGee, who how nice is Harold McGee? Nice.
+
+[50:32] How often does Harold McGee go off? Not often. Does he ever like like start cursing people or things out? No. I was like, yo, yo, eucalyptus trees are pretty harold.
+
+[50:40] He's like, God damn it, eucalyptus trees. You know what I mean? So it's like every time I walk through Brooklyn, there's some new building put up and they try to make it beautiful by putting bamboo out front. You're like, please don't do that. Yeah, people hate the bamboo.
+
+[50:53] I was talking to someone who had someone plant bamboo. Oh, my my father-in-law, and he was like, filth! Filth! Baboo! Filth!
+
+[51:03] I was like, yo, yo. It's not filth, it's just like unkillable. He's like, it goes under my fence. It shoots things under my fence and shoots bamboo up. It's the army ant of grass.
+
+[51:16] Wow. Yeah. Wow. I thought grass was the army ant of grass. It turns out bamboo is there are many bamboos.
+
+[51:23] I'm sure they're not all filth creatures. Just the ones that can grow up here. Anyway, so I will say this. Uh I'm happy to have people call and tell me that I'm an idiot, but 99% of the arguments against this GMO tree, one of them is you can't possibly know what's gonna happen, so you can never do anything. That's one argument.
+
+[51:40] I think that's dumb. Uh another one is that this is a Trojan horse, so that you like GMO pro if you'll do this because there's not any money attached to it, people are gonna feel warm and fuzzy about GMOs, and then Monsanto's gonna go shaft the farmers. Also from St. Louis, Monsanto. Really?
+
+[51:59] Yeah. Anyway, but my point is is that like, I mean, that's not a valid, that's not a valid thing. Like, you have to discuss the tree on its own merits. You can't say, oh, oh my god, server just poured water all over this lady. It was amazing.
+
+[52:12] Uh the um, you can't discuss the like you have to discuss the merits of the tree. You can't say, well, if people like this GMO, they're gonna like the other bad GMO, and therefore you can't do the good stuff. Listen, I use a knife to do surgery on you, and you can't do that because sometimes knives they stab people, and the people that make the knives, they're gonna think everyone's gonna think it's okay because they're making scalpels. Nah. You know what I mean?
+
+[52:34] Like, and then they're like, oh, well, things are bad, and then they point things that are bad. Like, you can live this plantations where they shouldn't be. I mean, it's just the the whole thing I think all the time. Anyway, so that's my feelings on it, but please uh oh, Melissa. Melissa wrote in earlier uh last week about and her question was specifically this.
+
+[52:53] Now, Nastasia, I'm gonna ask you to do this. You have to do some legwork. Mary Drake, I believe her name is, is one of the foremost cheese scientists. I believe that's her name, Mary Drake, uh, cheese scientist in the United States. See if you can get a hold of her, see if she'll call in.
+
+[53:08] Because the question I'm not qualified really to answer. Uh Melissa hates goat cheese, and she we've spoken about this before, right? Uh, she also turns out she hates cotija cheese. Now, I uh cotija cheese is like a Mexican kind of like hard salted, very crumbly, aged cheese that you can use in grating. I love cotiha, uh Melissa hates it.
+
+[53:30] Now, I don't know why. Melissa, I'm gonna try we're gonna try to contact this if you're listening. Melissa, if you can hear me, we're gonna try to contact this scientist and talk to it, but I'd like a little more information. And the information is this. Um, I'm trying to figure out how much of your distaste for cotiha is the flavor versus the texture.
+
+[53:48] So, uh cotiha as a crumbly, drier cheese. What are your thoughts on Cheshire, right? Cheshire is a dry, crumbly cheese. Do you like Cheshire, which is a cow's milk cheese, but has a uh crumbly, interesting, kind of relatively unique paste texture. Uh going a little deep in the weeds here, but if you like, do you like Castle Magno, right?
+
+[54:08] Another very crumbly textured cheese, depending on how it's aged. Uh, if you haven't had that, don't worry about it. Uh, do you like uh feta, another highly salted but wetter uh cheese, not goat, sheep, most or cow, depending on who's making it, right? So let me, I need an I need that these I need to know to try to figure out what it is that you don't like. I'm guessing they add a lot of enzymes now to Kotiha so they can speed age it so they don't have to age it for as long as it traditionally be aged.
+
+[54:35] And you're getting off flavors from the enzymatic breakdown products, perhaps lipid breakdown products, but I don't know. That's why we're gonna try to get in touch with uh Mary uh Mary Drake. I have her phone number. Great. And then the uh the I had one last uh question I need to know the answer to about what you liked or what you didn't like.
+
+[54:50] Ooh, what was it? Ooh, ooh, what was it? Hold on, okay, okay. So we we gotta do classics in the field and get out? Yes.
+
+[54:58] All right, hold on. And there was one more one more question I gotta answer. Come on. I was late today, and it was my fault. Okay.
+
+[55:03] Well, you all say stuff nobody cares about. Why can't I? Nobody cares about any of it. Go. Oh, Bill uh Bill Guppy wrote in saying that you can get a copy of the market assistant, which is one of the classics in the field uh online.
+
+[55:16] Almost all of the classics in the field that we're gonna tell you, they have online copies. One of the ones that we're gonna do, Nastasi and I are gonna post an online copy, even though she doesn't want to because she doesn't want you to know how to make apple heads. But we're gonna do it anyway. We're gonna post one online. Yes, we are.
+
+[55:30] She's shaking no. Why? No one's gonna make apple heads, Nastasia. But we'll eat them. No one's gonna scoop you on your apple heads.
+
+[55:36] Uh okay. Stasi's like, it's too big a money making operation the apple heads. The FOB very little on apple heads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, Nastasia, we gotta make 10 billion apple heads before the company in China makes even two pennies.
+
+[55:49] They do grow a lot of apples in China. Okay, anyway. So uh we will let you know when uh something that we do is not available online, right? Uh because almost all of them are. I should have mentioned I should have mentioned that.
+
+[56:01] Um most of the things that we do are available uh online. So, Robert, if you're ready, and you can weigh in on this, we'll take a look at it, we'll talk about it. Ready for uh this week's Classic Seed in the Field, yeah. Alright, so uh this week we're gonna do something a little bit different uh in that this is not necessarily a classic, but I don't know why it's not a classic, right? It's uh something that I think should be a classic uh but is not.
+
+[56:25] And I found it uh in a thrift shop and and I and I bought it. And it's by uh a person, she is dead. Uh but her name is Ruth Mary Griswold, right? And you can find a copy. The the book is called read the title so I get the exact thing right uh The experimental study of foods.
+
+[56:48] The experimental study of foods. And I like foods whenever I see foods that way, I think of the Welly Wesley Willis song, Don't Ask Me for Sugar Honey Iced Tea, only he says the the thing. And he's like, Don't ask me to pay for your foods. You know what I mean? Don't ask me for a Sony disc man.
+
+[57:03] Like he says all this like anyway. So uh she wrote this book. Uh she was born in um 1908. Uh she died in uh 1992. Uh, and um she was a food scientist, uh, but but also a home economics uh kind of professor.
+
+[57:19] And uh it's kind of this all the early work in at least in American um kind of food science writing, kind of fell under the rubric of home economics, and it was a good place for smart women in science to go uh into things. Reminds me, uh I probably don't have time, but reminds me of a story. Um there's a doctor who was a generation or so older than my mom, who's a pediatric cardiologist, who went to medical school in the late 40s or early 50s, and I uh my wife and I met her again. I hung out with her when I was a kid a couple years ago. She was in her 90s, and she had become a pediatric cardiologist, which for those of you that don't know, you go to medical school, then you go to uh you do your internship, your residency, then you can do after that, you can do you know, your your your residency is your specialty, so you would do pediatrics.
+
+[58:11] And back in the day, it probably still is, but when my mom was going to medical school, it was uh, you know, women, women doctors primarily went into pediatrics, they were kind of ghettoized into pediatrics for various reasons. Uh, but then after that, you go to what's called your fellowship, which is a subspecialty. So it's like very highly educated. So my mom's a pediatric cardiologist, you know, Dr. Griffiths was is a pediatric or was a pediatric cardiologist.
+
+[58:36] And so I said, hey, in the was it hard in like the in the 50s to become a pediatric cardiologist? Did I tell you this story, Nastasia? And what she said to me was uh actually no, because at Johns Hopkins, where I was, there was a woman who had become a pediatric cardiologist during the war, and no men would study with her, and she needed students. So it was actually easier for uh at that at that time in that location for women to get into that specialty because no men would study with this woman. So it's like it's these like study fields that for terrible reasons have become populated with these very talented women, anyway.
+
+[59:13] Uh so uh the reason this is a classic in the oh interesting. So she writes this book, and she doesn't keep the money from it. All the profits that she made from this book, she put into a scholarship. So you can still to this day, you can't find hardly any information on this woman on the internet. To this day, you can go get the Ruth Mary Grig Griswold Scholarship, which is awarded to uh undergraduates at the Indiana University in Bloomington.
+
+[59:40] Uh, is awarded to undergraduate or graduate students majoring in nutrition, dietetics, or human development and family studies, uh, with a GPA of uh 3.25 or 4.0 and above. And this scholarship was entirely paid for with the profits of this book that she wrote in 1962. Alright, so why is this why is this book, which is not known? I called Harold McGee and I was like, Harold, do you know about this book? He's like, No, I don't.
+
+[1:00:02] Like, it's not like one of the more famous early books, like early, early, like Catherine Beecher's book or like the uh Fannie Farmer uh, you know, in the the cooking school stuff, which was some of the early works on it. Um, I think that someone needs to redo this book. Like, everyone who writes, I still want people to buy Harold McGee's book on food and cooking as textbooks for like you know, non-major food science books. But if you're studying food science, there's very little between like uh what you know what Harold is writing, which is a very specific kind of book, amazing book. Everyone needs to own at least two copies, both editions, uh, right, and like Fenema, which is like, you know, kind of a hardcore like food chem, food science, or like Lowry's Meat Science or something like this.
+
+[1:00:44] There's very little in between. People have tried to make specific textbooks for food science that are aimed at people who don't necessarily want to be true scientists but are interested in food and interested in science. And I think this is the template for the book. And you can get it online uh at a place called Babel B-A-B-E-L. Uh Hathi Trust H-A-T-H-I-T-R-U-S-T.org.
+
+[1:01:09] And in the I found this at a thrift shop. I found it for like two bucks. I had no idea what it was. And on the inside it says, at the request of Mr. Philip Kempf, we are pleased to send you a complimentary copy of this book for your consideration as a basal text for your classes.
+
+[1:01:24] The list price is 949. So, like this book was actually sent out to someone to try to get them to use as a textbook. But why is it great? Let's take a look at the table of contents, which is going to give you kind of an idea of why it's so good. So she breaks it down into an introduction to food experimentation and an introduction into food science, which is great.
+
+[1:01:46] Like, why do this? Why not? She then goes into her part one, which is the current state. This is what needs to be totally kind of uh redone, right? The current status of food science.
+
+[1:01:56] But the current status of food science in 1962 is not the current food status science as it is now. But she goes through, much as Harold McGee does, eggs, dairy products, meats, veg, preservation, fats, starch, leavening agents, yeast, cakes, pastries, etc., candies. But then the real genius of it, so and she goes into it in somewhat in detail, right? So she's putting down you know, chemistry reactions, like very integrated in the way that a lot of college courses can't be because college courses are typically taught under one department. Physics, one department, chemistry, one department, biology, not under kind of like uh multiple disciplinary uh things.
+
+[1:02:31] But then where she really turns into a genius here is her food experimentation. And and that starts, it's only from page 491 to 567, the food experimentation section. Uh, but I highly, highly, highly recommend it because it tells you how to run basic experiments. And by the way, every every chapter in this book ends with experiments that you can do in a standard kitchen without a laboratory, right? So, like, she uses fundamentally basic stuff.
+
+[1:03:00] I mean, maybe you need a couple of things like you know, beakers and whatnot, scales, but she all of her experiments are are awesome and can be done in a regular kitchen. Uh, and that that alone is uh worth the price. Let me get a couple of um, and I like her attitude, which uh oh, another thing. She puts references at the end of everything. So the bibliography is horribly out of date, but everyone who most people who write about food science for gen general population don't ever put any references, and at the end of every chapter, she gives you references for further things to look at and further places to go and where she got the information, which is something I think everyone should go to.
+
+[1:03:35] I think she is firing on all cylinders back in the 60s, and people still haven't managed to do this, even in, you know, kind of, you know, we're a fifth of the way through our century already. So uh let me see if I can find uh something that I think you guys will like. Uh that I have time, because I know I have to leave. It's 20 minutes after. Oh my god.
+
+[1:03:54] Uh okay. Approaching the experiment. I'm gonna go teach uh with Harold McGee at the Harvard again this year. Everyone in Harvard needs to read this. Uh the student who is having difficulty finding a first problem may find comfort in learning that there's usually no trouble in selecting future problems because they seem to arrive constant arise constantly as research is being done, as research is being done.
+
+[1:04:17] If you continue to work, you will have new questions to work on. If you just sit around thinking about questions, you will not have new questions to work on. So smart, so smart. Uh reading also suggests topics by revealing areas in which unsolved problems await investigation. Await investigation, i.e., do investigation.
+
+[1:04:36] Ideas may come from practical food problems that have been encountered, from suggestions about simplifying a method of food preparation, from studying what function and ingredient serves, or from doubt concerning the validity of a theory. This lady, everyone should just read what this person says. And then, I mean, I mean, I kind of need you guys to keep asking questions, but like this, that she has the exact right approach to how to do everything. Uh, and then she goes, the first step in conducting most experiments is to read the work already done in the area. Imagine!
+
+[1:05:08] And yet this is something that no one thinks of. This aids in planning and ensures against unknowing repetition of work already done. The her, and yet nobody knows this. In 2019, nobody can figure this out. And then she goes on to explain, which is amazing, well, how to use a card catalog.
+
+[1:05:25] None of you guys need to know how to do it. She has an amazing section on how to plan your experiment, right? Like how to efficiently plan the experiment, how to document your experiment, how to not f up your experiment, how to control your experiment. She talks about how to train and find tasters. Look at look at her training these tasters.
+
+[1:05:43] It's sick. She's like how to select judges, how to train them. She talks about triangle tests, how to figure out whether your results are real or just garbage. Um, right? And then she talks about simple ways to measure things like how do I measure the volume of a cake.
+
+[1:05:57] Stuff that like Greg Blonder does in his genuine ideas, which is an interesting blog you should read now. And I will, uh, if you guys look at this book, which if you don't, you're a bad person, uh, go to page 523 and check out how she recommends recording bread textures. Ink print of the bread. Slice the bread, make an ink print. Everyone should someone, someone, if you can hear me, someone needs to take this book and update it and maybe add to the uh Ruth M.
+
+[1:06:26] Griswold uh uh scholarship in Indiana. Just doing our part to try to maybe bring her back so that everyone recognizes her as Classic in the feeder. Thank you, Robert. Thanks, uh, congratulations, uh Matthew, and uh thanks for coming back. This has been Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:06:52] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com slash Heritage. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:07:22] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:07:49] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces.
+
+[1:08:15] Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:01] This episode is brought to you by Tab Bird In, New American Cuisine in one of Washington, DC's oldest hotels, located in DuPont Circle. For more information, visit tabber in dot com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to about one. Who knows from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick.
+
+[0:29] Brrrr. Hot as hell, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Yeah, it is. Is this some sort of what's that yoga called? That hotbox yoga?
+
+[0:39] You know the control the controller is right by your feet. What? The AC is uh somewhere on the table. What is it? A guitar pedal?
+
+[0:45] No. Well, but by Nastasio's feet, are they not on the table anymore? We have like uh for any of you remember, remember the rat? Remember the rat, the guitar pedal, the rat? I absolutely do.
+
+[0:55] Yeah, you stomp it and it turns into grungy whatever. Yeah, we should wire that up for the AC. Just wire up uh like a like a foot pedal. We have to get an old actual rat. Uh I mean those those are still in use, yeah.
+
+[1:07] You don't have to look hard. Really? I oh yeah. I played bass, of course, not uh guitar. So uh I had an actual bass Wawa pedal, but uh, you know, because I used to listen to stuff that used bass wall, but like somehow the bass law just took all of Nastasi, can you make this work?
+
+[1:24] I can't make it work. I'm a gear guy, but not when I'm trying to talk to people about base was uh it took all the chunk out of the bottom end of the base. I think what you would need to do is split before the wa, have the wa as an overlay so you could keep some of the lower end of the sound. It just always thinned the bass out, the bass wah wah. Did was it Cliff Burton solo on that Metallica album that made you get the bass wall?
+
+[1:47] No, I was a I was more of a kind of uh I okay. Like uh I was more like a Bootsy Collins kind of uh, you know. He put so many effects on his bass, it's sometimes it's hard to tell what's going on but um yeah I gotta love Bootsy Collins. Everyone loves Bootsy Collins you listen you listening to Thundercat? Oh I love him.
+
+[2:08] No. What no really? Really? No he is oh man I'm so excited you need to go listen to Thundercat. Yeah?
+
+[2:15] Drunk. The album Drunk. Yeah? Uh yeah just do it. You'll you're gonna love it.
+
+[2:19] Named after Thundercats the cartoon? I've got I hope so I think so based on the lyrics, yes. Nice. Nice. He's like the session player that all these people use Flying Lotus, Kamasi Washington, etc, etc.
+
+[2:31] And yeah, he's incredible. Uh are you familiar with um are you familiar it's totally separate uh with uh Austrian Death Machine? No. Yeah. So like unfortunately it's the guy who I think he's in jail for trying to kill his uh uh wife from As I Lay Dying I forget the guy's name uh Yikes uh yeah he he had a I believe it's called Austrian I think it's called Austrian Death Machine but it's all songs that are takeoffs I think there's two or three albums takeoffs on Arnold Schwarzenegger lyrics and uh and movies.
+
+[3:06] So like you know it's kind of like a like a death metal y kind of uh get to the chopper but it's just like get to the chopper like that with a fake Arnold voice. I will most certainly listen. Yeah yeah yeah I mean I can't listen to like a whole album but I could listen to like a quarter of an album. No I'll listen I'll listen for the stupid grin it's gonna put on my face. Oh yeah yeah yeah you know and I think he also I mean he doesn't just you know, stick to the shoot 'em ups.
+
+[3:32] He has a little, I think he does a version of who is your daddy and what does he do? Which is, you know, obviously, you know, everyone likes kindergarten cop. If you have any sort of any sort of soul at all as a person, you have to enjoy both the commando style of Arnold Schwarzenegger movie and the kindergarten cop style of Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. Nastasia, I don't think has seen any of these movies, even though she continues to work with me for almost how long? I've watched her crap.
+
+[3:59] I she I even watched The Bachelor once with you. Yeah, like half an episode. I watched a whole damned episode. What's the phone number to call in? Uh 7184972128.
+
+[4:08] That's 7184972128. So uh by the way, speaking of episodes, uh, Matt, I don't know if you know this, but this is the last episode we're gonna have for quite a long time. I heard. Yeah, because uh we're Nastasia is gone uh next week, laying the foundations for our next uh LA event and Seattle. And then uh I'm in I'm in Taipei.
+
+[4:30] I'm gonna go to Taipei and uh spread the the good word of uh bar, you know, bar techniques in uh in Taiwan. My book was just translated over there into that talk about this on air, how they translated it in Taiwan, but the messed up thing about it is is that Taiwan is one of the last places on earth that uses traditional Chinese characters. So even though my book is now in Chinese, it is unreadable by the vast majority of Chinese uh readers because only Taiwan, and they're even getting rid of it in Hong Kong now, which you know, to the great chagrin of uh Hong Kong old timers, but the traditional characters have been phased out um, you know, after the uh after you know Mao's revolution for the simplified characters. And so honestly, I I would like to say that you could read my book in China, but nope. Nope.
+
+[5:21] Anyway. So I'll be in in uh then when we get back, I don't know, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that we that Nastasi and I have to do. So we're probably won't be back, people, till September. Right? So get all of your questions in now.
+
+[5:34] And in fact, we have a question. Oh, call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Hey Nastasia. Jordana here.
+
+[5:42] Rothman? Guest, occasional, occasional guest. Notable lifestyle influencer. Wait, what does that mean, lifestyle influencer exactly? Collector of various facial serums.
+
+[5:58] Wow. And wearer of status Birkenstock. You know me. You know me. Wait, wait, wait.
+
+[6:05] Are there different levels of Birkenstock? When I was a kid, it was just like leather and cork. You got the one Birkin stock. There was only one level of crunch. Are there multiple crunch levels now?
+
+[6:14] Well, actually, it goes in the inverse direction. It becomes less crunchy the more expensive the collaboration. A few levels up. Birkenstock does collaborations now? Oh, they sure do.
+
+[6:26] What the hell? What the hell? It's very hip. It's very hip, and you should listen to me, because as a lifestyle influencer of note. I mean, I I'm here to tell you.
+
+[6:38] I believe you. I believe you. But I'm just saying, like, if there's anything like you're like, like, can't anything stay pure? Like, I was okay when Doc Martin, Doc Martins lost their purity. That happened when I was a kid.
+
+[6:51] You know what I mean? Like, I always wore the, you know, like the standard like steel toe big puffy crap kicker like stuff. But then, like, I'm okay with the sequins and all the stuff. I mean, like, I I like them. But Birkenstocks were supposed to be, hi, I'm achewing all of this kind of like, I'm just hanging out, man.
+
+[7:10] But how can you have a collaboration? Who is it with? Please tell me it's with like like some sort of like Sacramento area like rapper, like Lil Mozzie or somebody. Is it who is it? Two things.
+
+[7:21] Number one, you are the enemy of progress. Number two, Birkenstocks with lots of collaborations. One of them is Rick Owens. That's not what I'm wearing. I'm not quite there yet, but maybe one day.
+
+[7:35] Wait, and they're not crunchy. No, they're super. The hammer's seen me wear them. Are they crunchy or? No, they're not.
+
+[7:41] No one will ever see me. No one will ever see me in anything like this because it would require that you could see my feet. Because I am not going full German with the sock on sandals actions. No offense, Germany. But I'm not doing like the seems like you.
+
+[7:55] What do you sock on sandals? Yeah. Wait, are you? It does seem like you. By saying by calling it sock on sandals, that's confusing.
+
+[8:02] It sounds like the socks are over the sandals. Okay, anyway. Who other than the Germans put on sandals over socks? Well, literally, like every like gender fluid high school hip kid right now. So I don't know.
+
+[8:15] Have they all been like paying attention? Is this like are they looking at like old? I I like again, I'm behind the times. I'm behind the times. But when I was growing up, it was you had the it like you got the Birkin stocks, like you went on your German, like your folks march, and you had the socks hiked hiked up over your calves, just underneath your knees.
+
+[8:34] No, it's more like a it's more like a sort of like low, it's not like an ankle stock, but it's like sort of not even mid Catholic, a little bit below mid cap is the look these days. Jeez, Louise. All right. Yeah, well, anyway, I'll take your word for it. Hey, people, uh, since this is ostensibly a cooking show, do not cook in sandals.
+
+[8:54] Oh, I do it. I do I cook barefoot. You're a freaking nightmare. Like, you're gonna st you're gonna you're gonna hurt yourself. I ha for safety reasons.
+
+[8:59] I have to say, don't do this. I have a scar on my right breast from splattering soup on it. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Vitamixing it. I was Vitamixing hot soup in an open kimono.
+
+[9:15] So geez Louise. I play it fast and loose. Listen, listen, Jordana. I hope you know this other safety tip. When using a Vita prep, both before you use it and after you use it, verify that both switches are down and the knob is all the way to the left.
+
+[9:32] You have to verify on low. Especially with hot soup. What are you doing burning yourself? Another thing that happened is that I I dropped a curling iron on the same breast and then forgot that I did it, and then I woke up the next day and had like a welt, and I was like, oh my god, it's like sepsis, like I am in big trouble. I like wrote a panic letter to my doctor, and then I went to get ready for the day and picked up my curling iron and I was like, Oh right.
+
+[9:58] Yeah. So anyway. All right, well, anything in the name of beauty and food. So you're uh listen, you're safety challenged, is what I'm hearing. Let me tell you one thing before you do this.
+
+[10:09] Especially when you have sandals on, when you drop the knife, let it fall. Don't try to catch it, especially not with your foot sandals, lady. Okay. I'll take that. I'll take that point.
+
+[10:19] Yeah. I'll take that point. Yeah. All right, what's it? So, first of all, number one, I just wanted to wish you a very happy anniversary with the hammer.
+
+[10:26] I know that we're coming up on eleven years, and that is a very, very significant milestone, and I wish you the very best. Why is eleven why why is eleven significant? Well, I have this memory of being at Wiley Dufrein's like 11 year birthday party at WD Fifty because like they missed the 10 year, I guess, and then Jelena's came to town, and then we all like hid behind the booze and did like a surprise birthday party. So I don't know. Eleven seems really significant.
+
+[10:52] It's also lucky. I'm sure it has like some numerology significance. I don't know. It just feels big, and I just wanted to like take the second and just like shout you out, both lifestyle influencers. It's a long time, guys.
+
+[11:05] Long time. Thanks. We influence people to not have our lifestyle, that's for sure. But uh thank you. But did are we gonna are we gonna talk cooking or what?
+
+[11:15] You gotta question I have an important question. Okay, so I recently was in Mexico and I made an impulse purchase. Okay. And the impulse purchase was an entire frame of honeycomb. Okay.
+
+[11:28] Um, and I was like super excited when I found it. I was like, oh my god, this is so special, like what a beautiful, like sort of whimsical, romantic thing to bring back. And so I brought it back and it was like a real like I'm not gonna it's like a real half-slevel travel with an entire frame of honeycomb. I bet. And then as soon as as soon as I like had it back, and even when I got back to New York, I was like, what the hell do I actually do with this thing?
+
+[11:51] And I think in my mind I thought, oh, I'm gonna have a big cheese party, and then everyone's gonna eat honeycomb and cheese. But that would be like 120 people each eating like their a lifetime share of honeycomb in the space of like a two hour party. So it's not gonna happen. My question is like A, like how do I store it? B, is it like safe to just like have for a very, very long time?
+
+[12:12] C, any ideas of what I should do with it? So I'm assuming that they didn't cut the cap off of it, that it's not uncapped. It's completely capped both sides. Very good question. So it when I purchased it, it was like largely capped on the surface area, but it's definitely like because of the heat and like sort of driving around with it in a hot car in Mexico and then flying with it, etc., I can see that some of the casts have sort of like deteriorated underneath it, underneath the backpack.
+
+[12:41] Right. So for those of you that don't know, uh, the way that the way that this works is I I forget the guy's name, but there was a a single person who figured out this um thing called bee space. And bee space is if you just put the way they used to do it is they would put bees inside of uh beehive shaped what we traditionally think of as beehive shaped whinnie the poo-shaped things. Uh, and bees would just build honeycomb on the inside of it, and they would form these layers, but the layers would be stacked up in a way that was difficult to get to. The honeycomb would be glued together, it was hard to harvest the honey without uh destroying the hive, etc.
+
+[13:18] etc. Uh so they you know they would lift these baskets up and then they would break the comb apart, blah, blah, blah. Uh then this person, I believe in the 1800s, whose name escapes me because I didn't look it up beforehand because I didn't know you were we were going to talk about this, uh, figured out this idea of bee space, where if you space these things called supers, which are the sheets that the honeycombs are built on, a very specific distance apart, then the bees will form exactly one layer of honeycomb and then not attach it to the next layer of honeycomb and will make the next layer. And that is what is allowed the removable uh honeycomb frames, the large square frames of h of honey that you see today. It's this bee space idea.
+
+[13:58] Uh now a second big innovation is that bees take a certain amount of energy to produce the wax that honeycombs are made out of, because honeycombs are made of wax, that's what beeswax is. Uh, and so um it used to be they would just build the whole thing from scratch, and then they realized if you pre-make that uh the wax base with the hex pattern on it, they'll just build up the things and then and then fill them and cap them. And so now, uh in fact, what they do is is that the bees will cap them over, you'll pull them out, and then they have a hot knife. This is why I asked about the capping that will slice the top cap off, and then they sometimes heat, sometimes not, depending on what your view of heating the honey is. Of course, in Mexico you don't need to because it's so freaking hot, and then they'll dump the honey out of the uh frames, and then they'll just reuse that wax right away so that the bees can you know fill it again without using a lot of extra energy.
+
+[14:46] Now, uh so just explaining kind of what we're dealing with. Typically, when you buy honeycomb in the store in the small plastic uh boxes, they've uncapped it because you can see it kind of bleeding out. So you can that's again, this is why I asked. Now, what to do with it? That like how many pounds is it?
+
+[15:05] Ugh. I mean, it's basically like it's probably about two feet, maybe a foot and a half long, and then like a half foot high. So it's like whatever, and that's one layer of honeycomb, you can imagine. Like, I don't know, like a pound. I don't know.
+
+[15:21] Yeah. A pound, something like that. I mean, like, it would be cool, like you would lose a bunch of the honey, but I could imagine like cutting it into blocks that people could uncap at their plate and pour all over their like individual cheese course, so don't need to do it kind of all at once. You know what I mean? I've never seen I've never seen someone do that before.
+
+[15:42] Um, how do I store it if I don't use it all at once? I guess is the question. Well, the good idea. The good news is it will the pro here's a the the good news and the bad news. The the good news is is if it's still liquid now, right, as long as it doesn't get too cold, it will probably stay liquid.
+
+[15:59] If it crystallizes right then you will need to heat it to uncrystallize it and I don't know I don't know uh the I don't know the temperature at which that will happen versus the temperature at which the wax will start degrading if that makes sense. You know from a m microbiology standpoint it's good. You know what I mean? You're at 82% uh sugar there's like almost no water activity so to speak of nothing's gonna grow in it it's fine. So whereas maple syrup at 66% uh sugar is going to uh grow mold if you leave it in your pantry uh honeycomb won't right uh now that the other thing though if you're worried about heat damage and this is something I think people don't think about don't store it on the top shelf of wherever you are that the top shelf of your kitchen especially if you cook can be like over 10 degrees hotter than at counter level um because one it's just always hotter up high because uh warm air rises but as you're cooking like uh hot air from your stove unless you're very good at evacuating it pulls up around the ceiling so the ceiling of your kitchen can get quite hot so I would try to store it as physically low as possible.
+
+[17:19] I would avoid if you can um refrigerating it just because it will almost undoubtedly then crystallize and then you won't be able to pour it out of the individual things if you choose to serve it that way. Does that make does that make sense? Yeah, totally. So basically safe to eat, store it at like more or less room camps low, maybe in even in like my garage wrapped up. So that it like stays a little bit Yeah I mean I don't know your garage, but yeah I mean like uh or you know just I I I would try to protect it from extremes of heat or cold.
+
+[17:51] Uh now let me ask you this you're in Mexico but these are regular European honey bees right these aren't uh melapona honeybees. I'm gonna be honest definitely not a question I asked at the Mercado Hidalgo and Tijuana that's not up. Oh it's in Tijuana? Okay so they're not they're not melapona then. That's fine.
+
+[18:08] Because I was gonna say that um the Melapona honey bees which typically are not grown on a regular full in fact I don't think are ever grown on a full frame like that. Um they produce a honey of possibly substantial lower sugar content and as a result wouldn't necessarily be 100% shell stable. So at the bar we store the Melopona honey in the fridge just because we don't trust that it's a hundred percent stable but other honeys yeah are are are fine. And like I say and in fact can can be a pain in the butt if you um if you let them get too cold because they'll they'll crystallize some countries like uh if you buy honey in um England typically it is creamed so it's it's it's beaten a little bit and then allowed to crystallize so that it's more spreadable and less of a liquid pouring thing but here in America we prefer a you know a porrable honey that's that's that's what we uh that's our jam the poop style yeah when it's final question although he was English come over for a cheese party. What kind of cheese?
+
+[19:12] I love cheese. What do you mean you travel? Nastasia lot Nastasia loves to say things about me. Dave are you gonna go to her cheese party? Probably.
+
+[19:19] I don't know when is the cheese party. I don't know. I have to figure out when I'm gonna open the Free Am of the honeycomb and then I and then if you want to come to the cheese party we can talk about it. I would tell my kids about the honeycomb and they would get super psyched and now be like, no, yo no, not not the cereal, like actual honeycomb. Do you like honeycomb the cereal?
+
+[19:35] Yeah. I I haven't been I I don't know. You've never had the honeycomb of cereal? I know that it exists, but I I didn't have the honeycomb cereal, no. What was the cereal you had growing up?
+
+[19:45] Um, I don't know. Oats. Oats. I had I had morning gruel. Okay, Oliver Twist.
+
+[19:53] Lisa. I want some more. This is why I'm so like hashtag blessed and have so much hashtag gratitude as a lifestyle influencer because of my humble root. You're i in the in the in the workhouse. Yeah.
+
+[20:07] I would scold her, bounce her, pick him up and bounce her. Uh singing all of her tunes. Yeah. I mean, that it's a great show, so I'm glad you grew up eating gruel. You know.
+
+[20:21] Yeah. Have you ever seen Oliver Twist? I mean, yes, I've definitely seen Oliver Twist. Fagan was like a big character and my dad loved to just sort of quote the whole thing and and really, you know, drive home the, you know, the privilege to remind us that, you know, we're better off, and so it could always be worse as a common Jewish household refrain. Yeah.
+
+[20:45] It's it's interesting that you choose Fagan because have you ever read the actual original Dickens stuff? Horribly anti-Semitic, the original Dick and stuff, and yet popularized in uh in modern culture, like the most famous uh actor of fake and whose name escapes me, but he died uh a couple of years ago, was Jewish and kind of like turned it into like kind of like his his best known uh thing. And that character was kind of rescued in a way from being this like horrible pit of an of like kind of uh anti-Semitic uh uh 19th century garbage into something that we're all like, you know, you better pick a pocket or two. You know, it's all of a sudden it's become this thing where we're like all like, you know, we're all okay, you were all okay with it somehow. You know that David has always wanted to be on Broadway, right?
+
+[21:32] In the bank line, he knows so many show tos. Things as these don't grow on trees, Nastasia, you better pick a pocket of freaking too. All right. Well, anyway, happy anniversary. Thank you for the B lesson and everything.
+
+[21:45] Impressive as ever, and enjoy the rest of your show. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Uh chat desperately wants to know uh to know has your cherry allergy been cured.
+
+[21:58] Uh okay, so has my cherry allergy been cured. Nastasia was hoping that my throat would close up, and you would all like enjoy hearing it. So when my throat closes, I do like an amazing Donald Duck impression when my throat closes up. But uh it turns out that I can now have at least a limited number of cherries. The maximum number I've had in a row to date has been like 10 or 15.
+
+[22:22] But I'm and I would my wife doesn't listen to this, so it's okay. I would be lying to say that I felt nothing. But but, right? You know, uh now you have more Oliver songs going through my head. If I could say he wasn't very greedy.
+
+[22:40] Anyway, but uh, but in other words, I am, I would like to eat an entire like whole bowl of cherries, but I I won't. So I felt a little bit and I stopped, but it didn't progress. So I never felt like I was gonna have to go to the hospital or even really take a Benadryl. I really I hate taking Benadryl. I hate taking Benadryl so much.
+
+[22:58] So I can have uh yes, I can have cherries now. So now when I go out to restaurants and people are like, Are there any allergies at the table? I don't say anything anymore, which is a great feeling because I hate to be like cherries and low quats. They're like no cum quats. I said low quats, cumquats, low quats, low quats, like Lindsay Lohan quat.
+
+[23:19] Low quat. And no one serves low quats anyway, so it's a dumb thing to say. I haven't tested I I was like, raw jackfruit is giving me reactions before. But you know, like no one serves raw jackfruit, so you don't want to have to give the explanation. So I'm going to separately test low quats and raw jackfruit.
+
+[23:38] Okay. Yeah. Thank you. The people needed to know. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:42] Uh Devin the dude also asks, Any point to pressure frying for home cooking? Best info I found online points to its speed and tenderizing ability for tougher chickens of decades ago. Uh yeah. I am a tougher chicken of decades ago, for sure. Well, okay, so it's interesting.
+
+[23:59] Um obviously the professionals uh pressure fry. I don't have personal experience with it. Now there uh we answered some questions a while ago um from I should probably do it for the next book because it's part of the theme. It's not just low temperature cooking, it's it's like all forms of moisture management, and this is a form of moisture management. So I should in fact deal with it.
+
+[24:23] The the people who used to sell pressure fryers stopped selling them, I'm guessing because of horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible liability problems. I mean, can you imagine like having someone pressurize oil? And when you read the when you read the manuals from modern day pressure cookers and they mention like frying, they're like, Nope. Nope. Um, but that said, I would love to I would love to try it and and you know, but I don't have any I don't have any influence.
+
+[24:51] My guess um any um first hand knowledge. My guess is that uh since it's the way all the professionals do it that it produces a better product. I have never tried it. This is why so look, one of the advantages of pressure cooking is one, you yes, as you say, there's probably some tenderization effect of the um of the of the meat due to the pressure. You know, why not just test like a pressure pre-fry?
+
+[25:15] So this is why I uh most of the time I I low temp, no matter what Kenji says, I think he's wrong on this crap, and you know, we just need to do a side-by-side battle on this. Like I do a pre I do a pre-cook most of the time of my chicken before I fry it now, where I never used to. It used to be I did it the old school way where I just turned the temperature of the oil way down low, and then you would like hit it a couple of times, in and out, go in and out to try to get the inside done at the right thing. But I was never cooking any of the old tough chickens, and I've never fried an old tough bird. And it used to be the majority, if not all birds were old tough birds, but they had better flavor.
+
+[25:50] So like I you know what? I should try to get some old like roasting fowls and just pressure cook them and see whether the breast meat is even palatable at that point. That's why I usually use that stuff for soup. Soup! Uh, because I mean the flavor is really good, but Americans just don't like a chewy chicken.
+
+[26:08] Do Americans like a chewy chicken, Nastasia? Hate a chewy chicken. Mm-hmm. Nastasia's hugging the microphone, which is weird. Well, normally she hates the microphone, but she's like She's trying out a new thing.
+
+[26:18] She yeah, yeah. It's like it's like some sort of sign of like love and respect. You know how like when a dog goes up and puts its like head on your knee, she's doing that to the microphone. It's like, you know. Turns out the sound, when you make sound, comes out of the front of your mouth, and then if you point it into the microphone, she's trying to sound like one of those old smokers with the thing up their uh throat.
+
+[26:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god. We already talked about that on air, right? Is my most embarrassing moment. I don't know.
+
+[26:44] No. What is it? We never spoke about my most embarrassing moment. No. Please say don't do that now.
+
+[26:50] Do I know it? Of course you know it. What is it? It's not food related. I know, tell me.
+
+[26:54] I believe I said it. Just say it. It sounds like it's an issue, so we can talk about it. So uh Nastasi and I both have a habit of putting our foot like not so much our foot as like all the way down to our knees into our mouths at various points. Can't imagine.
+
+[27:10] Yeah, like like a German knee-high sock. We can get our foot that far into our into our mouth. But uh wait, which one? I need to. So I was at my so uh I grew up watching uh peanuts, you know that like uh Snoopy, peanuts, you know, Charlie Brown.
+
+[27:29] And um Snoopy used to play what's called a jaw harp, right? Some people call it like, you know, I I don't they use a different term which I won't use because I don't even understand like how it's related, but jaw harp, right? And it goes, and it's like shaped almost like a lyre with like a little like metal spring in it, and you put it in your mouth and you hum and you and you do the spring and it money meme mee meme. And so Snoopy played one in one of the peanut specials, and I used to watch it as a kid, and I always had a fascination with this instrument because it was like required no skill in the same way that a kazoo requires no skill, right? And do you like kazoos growing up?
+
+[28:08] Mm-hmm. Matt, kazoo fan growing up? Love a gazoo. Everybody loves a kazoo, really, if you think about it. People say they hate a kazoo, but everyone, if you go on, if you hand them a kazoo, they start playing the kazoo.
+
+[28:17] So uh I'm at college and I'm a book uh fiend. I I take anyone's books at all times. I like so my friend was graduating, and I went over to his room, and I'm looking at his books. So, like, you know, uh for those of you who don't know me, I I don't so much pay attention to what's going on around me, right? And so I'm looking at his books to see if there's any books that you know I can have because he doesn't want to ship them back to California where he's from.
+
+[28:42] And I hear bing miming ming me. Now, in my defense, I knew that the guy came from a musical family. Like, you know, his his dad was a professional musician, his brother was a musician, like they come from a mu musical family. So I'm hearing me. I'm like, I turn around and go in my best hey voice, hey, who's got the jaw hard?
+
+[29:04] And I turn around, and it is his grandfather who had throat cancer with a trach and a little microphone, and he was holding the microphone up to his throat saying something to somebody, and I was like, goodbye. And then I walked out, and that was probably the most embarrassed I've ever been. Every once in a while I say to myself, Who's got the jaw harp? And then like, goodbye. It's like your reflexes are just too fast.
+
+[29:32] You thought of that too quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but I was so excited. I was like, I, you know, I've only seen these a couple of times in my life. I've owned one.
+
+[29:40] I went and found one and bought one pre-internet days. I'm like, here's someone playing one in the room where I am. Have you? Can you tell the one about uh uh forehead? No, no.
+
+[29:52] You don't have to say the beam. No. Why did he? No. No.
+
+[29:57] You're gonna be off the air for a whole month. People will forget. No, no. We were at a table with a mutual friend. Yeah.
+
+[29:59] Take it from there. No, it's not even that good because you have to know the players. I'm not gonna tell you who the players are. Basically, I say, hey, a guy's got a big forehead, huh? And the other person's like, that's my brother.
+
+[30:15] Okay. But like, you know, like standard stuff, but it's just like it's like a mutual friend. Synastasia. Why couldn't it leave? You had to sit there for the rest of the dinner.
+
+[30:25] It was fine. It's fine. His head, his forehead was large. Oh, yeah. Way worse.
+
+[30:33] The guy had, you know, whatever. Anyway. I'm sure that technology has gotten a lot better since then. Oh my god. Wait, I'm okay.
+
+[30:40] So there's a person on the line. Uh-huh. Do you want to wanna talk to them? Yeah. Well, I if you make it seem as though I don't.
+
+[30:46] I forgot about them for a minute. Sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, yes, let's talk. Let's talk.
+
+[30:52] Caller. Uh hi there, am I on? Yeah. How you doing? Hey, babe.
+
+[30:58] This is hey, this is Mel from Oregon. Um, I'm super glad I called in uh right before you went off the air uh for a month. But I I I have I have two questions. I'm gonna ask the first one and then we'll see if Nastasha lets me get the second one. Um so I'm I'm interested in uh doing recipe development on uh vegan ice creams or vegan frozen desserts.
+
+[31:22] Um do you have a recommendation for what kind of machine I can use in the like you know thousand to two thousand dollar range that will give me like really accurate test results when I scale up to a larger type of equipment? That's real cheap. Um that's so like how first of all, like how as am I? Yeah, yeah, right. How handy are you?
+
+[31:50] Are you handy with equipment? Uh pretty darn handy. Okay. I mean because uh you know, it's like on sub 1000, right? As far as I remember, it's been a long time since I've searched.
+
+[32:03] You're looking at something that will, you know, you're not looking at doing like one-off stuff like like doing LN or even like trying to get used Paco Jets, which are much more expensive. Like usually, you know, everything sub 1000 is like those countertop kind of home stuff, and the problem with those is just the refrigeration units just simply are not powerful enough. So you're never gonna be mimicking the batch times that you're gonna get out of um a real like you know, commercial, like more than more than six thousand dollar machine, right? So it's like, you know, and and the difference between a machine that has a batch time of like 20 minutes and the difference between that and something that can have a batch time more like eight minutes is enormous in terms of testing for the ultimate texture that you're gonna get um out of the out of the product. So um I would say if you are handy, and I am also always hesitant to have people buy used equipment, but um, you know, the generation of ice cream machines that people used to use uh in restaurants that are relatively small, like tabletop-ish but big, still run off of a 110 or still air-cooled, right?
+
+[33:17] Stuff that makes your life easy. Like, for instance, the old uh the old Carpajani LB uh LB 100s, like those used to be like top of the line machines for their size, but they haven't been made in like a decade. So it might be possible to buy one. I think spares are still out there. Now I haven't looked, but spares are still out there.
+
+[33:38] You might be able to get one or find a restaurant or something that's closing down and get one. Um back when I was going to try to get my own ice cream maker, they uh Carpegani used to make a very small, uh, uh vertical machine that was functionally the same size as like the Lelos and those kinds of uh inexpensive uh um inexpensive being $500 machines, but was originally like a $3,000 machine that uh you know you used to be able to get for like $800 or thereabouts. I haven't looked for one, but I also haven't seen one in in a zillion years. But it's good for like kind of like prototyping work. Um I would say that uh it's a tough it's a tough thing.
+
+[34:23] If you're just looking, I mean like uh I don't know if this is making any sense. I mean, I would do an eBay search and uh or even Craigslist or look at uh online auctions and see if you can get one, but then you have to be willing to realize you have to realize that um no matter how much of a tinkerer you are, tinkering with uh refrigeration is a huge pain in the butt because unless you have some sort of illegal c connection to an HVAC thing, you have to hire a real uh you know, a real um refrigeration person to come in and look at it because no one will sell you the refrigeration stuff without the proper permits. You know what I mean? No one. Like even for the modern stuff, which shouldn't necessarily be an issue in terms of the refrigerants, like no just no one will deal with you.
+
+[35:06] Uh and so I in general have stayed away from working with um working with uh trying to tinker with refrigeration. Um geez, you're in a tough spot there. Jimbo from the chat says the Mousso well polah fifty thirty is uh twelve hundred used on Amazon and he thinks it's a solid buy for this purpose. Yeah. I have to look at it.
+
+[35:30] What's the batch time on that sucker? Jimbo be fast. Yeah. Um anyway, so we're cogitating on this. What's your what's your second question?
+
+[35:40] Did you uh using liquid nitrogen to do recipe development? Or is that gonna be just way too fast to compare textures to the commercial equipment? No, liquid nitrogen is fine for recipe development. You just gotta um you know, as long as you get the I I would take a a very standard base and then do it with liquid nitrogen so you get a feel for it. Uh get the rubber scrapers when you're doing the kitchen aid.
+
+[36:04] Don't try to do it by hand. Uh and then realize that um you know, ten times out of ten, most people uh either under or over freeze with liquid nitrogen, it's very hard to get exactly the right um the right you know, freeze level. Um you also have to be a little bit careful 'cause it foams so much that it's somewhat difficult to completely control the overrun just because there's so much bubbling on it. Uh so, you know, i I love I you know, liquid nitrogen ice cream, we used to that's how we used to make ice cream for people at events just 'cause it was easier than going over to the pastry department and wheeling over their tailors and their uh you know, their tailors and their Carpaganis, and then they would bitch that we didn't clean 'em out right and they needed it for their class, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So like liquid nitrogen was just how we would make it.
+
+[36:54] Um, you know, we had Paco Jet too, but y that was always hard because the freezers were never quite in the right order to do Paco Jet Alaminute, and then if it was spun out beforehand, it would melt. So anyway, like it was always just easier for us to do LN out of the out of a KitchenAid once you have the rubber scraper. And it's definitely, if you have an easy supply of liquid nitrogen nearby, it's it's not it's expensive on a on a batch per batch basis because you're using probably more than a liter of liquid nitrogen to make a liter of ice cream, right? But um in terms of its initial outlay to see whether or not you like what you're doing, it's relatively less expensive. You can also honestly just you know use one of the old, get a rival salt and ice if you're only doing it occasionally.
+
+[37:43] It's just it's hard to be a hundred percent um consistent. I've had good luck with an old rival. Uh I've had good and bad luck with White Mountain because the wood dashers on the White Mountain, um the official, you know, old school one, the wood dashers I've had I've had some that I've had good luck with, and I've had some that I've had bad luck with, and I ascribe it to the fact that they want to use some oldie time wooden dasher instead of some like modern, like actual like Delrin or plastic, you know, dasher. I don't know why the hell they do that. I like I don't need some sort of you know, I'm not doing it to like try to commune with my ancestors and trying to make freaking ice cream, you know what I mean?
+
+[38:22] Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's great information. Um, and my last question is can I put 190 proof through the spenzol?
+
+[38:30] Uh well, it's unsafe. I mean, that the it's just an explosion hazard. You know, so it's not gonna hurt the it's not gonna hurt the spinzole, but um, you know, it's you know, the flash point of of that stuff is I I'd have to look it up, but it's probably room temperature or below, so it's you know, we don't we don't like making a lot of uh alcohol vapor. So I would just uh caught I would caution you, I would caution you there. Okay.
+
+[39:00] What's the what's the what's a good I upper limit? Uh I don't know. I looked it up based on flashpoint once. It's whatever I put into uh it's whatever I put in the manual. I don't have it off the off the top of my head, you know.
+
+[39:10] So I'm not worried about really anything that we do uh at the bar. And you know, like I say, it won't hurt the unit. It's just you know, um a lot of people are complacent when it comes to alcohol vapor. Ask anyone that's done traditional um distilling and then had some sort of a horrible fire uh as a result of uh vapor. So um again, I'm not saying it will explode.
+
+[39:37] I uh I just from a safety standpoint as the manufacturer, I can't tell you to do anything where the where you have something that is possibly at or above the flash point of the of the liquid. It's just not it's not possible for me to even discuss it. You know what I'm saying? Uh I just cut him off, actually, because we got one more caller to sneak in here if we can. Alright, caller, you're on the air.
+
+[40:03] Hopefully they have like 10 questions. Hey guys. One question is not promise. All right. Um I have a fried chicken question.
+
+[40:11] Uh we we made some version of uh hot chicken last night uh on a on a whim, and uh the texture of the crust uh kind of sucked. And I'm wondering if you have any suggestions, um uh, you know, tried and true techniques to just get a get a good crust, even if it involves using some kind of modified starch. We have a couple things on hand that we can use. What do you do that you didn't like? Um I mean I I did like the uh flour, buttermilk, flour.
+
+[40:44] Uh basically hit it with flour three times and then dropped it in the fryer. Um but it just seemed, it just wasn't really crispy. Um what was in the buttermilk? Uh it was a little bit of hot sauce, some seasoning, and uh buttermilk. Okay.
+
+[41:04] So in the so if you're going to do a uh traditional like flour, buttermilk, flour kind of a situation, uh I would in general put the seasoning into the buttermilk. It's just easier to do than trying to season your flour mix, but that's me. Uh also you need egg in there and baking soda. Uh and I think I I I have I put soda and powder in, but at a minimum you're gonna want soda and um and uh egg. And uh that should increase the crunchiness level uh substantially when using kind of regular flour, and that's gonna give kind of your your traditional, well, my traditional kind of kind of crust.
+
+[41:51] Now that I know there's a there's a whole different there's a whole different scenarios, right? There's the there's the direct out of brine into flour kind of people, but like if you're gonna do uh like like flour, buttermilk, flour, i you you didn't use egg. Uh actually I did. I did uh I used egg yolk. Yolk.
+
+[42:11] I mean the yolk is gonna soften the crust, right? So I would like in general, like I understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting like there's a lot of people out there who think that uh hard and crispy are the same thing and they're not like I don't like a hard crust, it doesn't have the right kind of shatter, right? And so like I can understand yolk as a tenderizer, but I've only ever used whole egg in uh and I use it at about the r uh it's been a while since I looked it up, but it's about an uh an egg per cup of buttermilk, I think is what I use. And did you use uh soda and or powder in the in the in the buttermilk or no? No, I didn't.
+
+[42:49] Yeah. So I would try the soda and the powder because that's gonna uh poof the coating out a bit, and so like those air holes that you're gonna get from the blowout on it, I think is gonna increase your crunch level substantially. I think the protein from the egg white is gonna help you in this case and not make it too hard. I think if you were gonna use like a crap ton of eggs, then that would probably uh damage that, um damage that. Um right now at the restaurant, I know uh, you know, they're we're doing a bunch of like non traditional like slurry based coatings that are almost entirely starch based, right?
+
+[43:26] And so for those you're working with the properties of specific starches. So adding things like tapioca will give you a little more chew and crunch. Uh potato will give you like a lot of that initial like swell. So like a lot of people doing mixtures of like rice, potato, uh a little bit of tapioca for pliability and chew if you like that. Um but if you're you know, a traditional a traditional flour coating can be quite crunchy, but I think maybe it's the the soda and the so soda is good for a number of reasons one it's going to i well it depends on on your stuff it's gonna make it turn brown faster because remember the buttermilk is uh acidic so if you don't add um if you don't add uh some sort of base to neutralize it the acidity is going to um it's gonna make it be very blonde so it's gonna take a long time for the color to develop properly uh I can't say offhand in a fry coating what acidity will do to the texture of it if I had to guess I'd say it would make it softer so adding the baking soda is going to make it uh neutralize some of that acidity gonna make it so that it browns more effectively but also will immediately create it's the equivalent of using seltzer so like for people who use seltzer water in their batters or or carbonated vodka or whatever in the heck people are using now to introduce air bubbles into the batter to lighten it and make make things more crispy uh adding soda to buttermilk creates an instant reaction it's like an acid base reaction that instantly aerates the mixture and it's gonna add to um the crunchiness of the of the finished product so I think your main thing is soda and then you can also experiment you can add some powder you want to be careful about going too crazy on soda and powder because some people are more uh what's it called more um sensitive to the taste of leaveners than others but it's pretty easy to go over leavened on stuff like that and then people can start tasting the leavening if that you know Nastasia although Nastasia hates like over baking soda things, except for she drinks water that is fundamentally flavored with baking soda.
+
+[45:35] So as normal, she is a conundrum. Don't you like that weird baking soda water, Nastasia? Yeah, yeah. Why? I don't know.
+
+[45:41] Weird. Yeah, no accounting. But anyway, give it a give it a shot and let us know. Alright, sounds good. Thanks.
+
+[45:47] Alright, cool. All right, now. We're just about out of time here. Alright, but I gotta do my I gotta do my last uh it's the last one for a while. I carry 80 pounds of books here.
+
+[45:57] Okay. If Nastasia allows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter what I say, go. Oh, it doesn't matter what I do.
+
+[46:04] Oh no, big bad cave. Big bad game. Oh my god, go. You know what? You know what?
+
+[46:13] It's like we live in Dave Arnold's world. Oh yeah, we live in Dave Arnold's world. We live in Dave Arnold's world. I wish you people were on this telephone call with us earlier in the day. Yet another depressing call.
+
+[46:28] You know what just like God forbid any of you have to build stuff somewhere else because it's a nightmare. I don't wish the kind of crap that we have to go through on any Dave Arnold's world crazy. Crazy. Crazy. Do you let me ask you a question, Nastasia?
+
+[46:44] You like Elon Musk, right? Mm-hmm. So imagine. Yeah, but he's balls. He owns his own.
+
+[46:51] She was saying he's mean to people and is like, and you're done because you're not working out. And you're done because you're not working out. So imagine if he didn't own like his own means of production. First of all, like he makes this thing called not a flamethrower because he's not allowed to sell flamethrowers. By the way, flamethrower, for those of you that are never caught on fire before in your lives, I can speak as someone who has.
+
+[47:12] Flamethrower is the most horrifying weapon. I mean, not every form of killing somebody is pretty terrifying, pretty bad. But like spraying someone with gel that can't be put out even under water is just a horrific way to kill somebody. You know what I mean? Uh but anyway, imagine if if uh if if we were like Elon Musk and we went to these factories and we're like, we're trying to build this flamethrower, but we're gonna call it not a flamethrower, but basically it's a flamethrower.
+
+[47:36] All you gotta do is look at the technology of flamethrowers. It works, it's been used for like a hundred years. They have flamethrowers, build it, and they came back and they're like, yeah, yeah, but how about this? It's a lighter. You want to sell this lighter?
+
+[47:47] No, I want to make a flamethrower! And that's the same problem we're having with a different piece of equipment in our factories in China right now, right? They're like, they're like, hey, you want to build this other thing that like we already know how to build? And we're like, no! Yeah.
+
+[48:00] Anyway, that's not what I'm here to talk about. I'm here to talk about the last installment for at least a month of classics in the field. Alright, so today, because we're not gonna be here for a while, I bought like a multiple kind of circular classics in the field that has um a lot to do with stuff that I was uh interested in growing up and kind of you know, people I've known books, books I have read. And so I'm trying to figure out exactly where exactly where we should start it. But I'll start with this.
+
+[48:29] The very first book. So I grew up in the Did you read cookbooks growing up, Nastasia? No. Did your mom have them around the house? Some.
+
+[48:37] And did you but did you read them at all? No. So when did you start caring about this? If if you do. I don't.
+
+[48:42] You don't care about food at all. No, I don't care about cookbooks. Well, how'd you get interested in food? I like to eat it. But you used to say that you like to cook it.
+
+[48:52] I like to cook it too, but I have never used cookbooks. Where did you learn anything? I don't know. Watching people? Which people?
+
+[49:01] Being in working in Italy. Working where in Italy? Like living with people in Italy. Working with people. How long did you live in Italy?
+
+[49:08] Off and on for two and a half years. How old were you? Twenty-five. So you didn't cook anything before you were twenty-five? Not really.
+
+[49:17] Okay. Uh what about you, Matt? You like cookbooks? I like cookbooks. Anyway.
+
+[49:23] That's a good answer, Matt. I'm just trying to find the shortest route. Yeah. You guys are the worst. Honestly.
+
+[49:29] Honestly, people. This episode is brought to you by Tabbert Inn. Tabbert Inn. Washington, DC's quintessential hotel is located on a quiet tree-lined street just five blocks from the White House. Vibrant yet unassuming the tabern is comprised of 40 sleeping rooms, each unique in character and design.
+
+[49:56] Faced on an eclectic American cuisine in their acclaimed restaurant. Or enjoy a cocktail and listen to live jazz in one of their cozy Victorian seating areas. Mingle with travelers from around the world who find the tabard the only place to stay when taking their travels to Washington. For more information, visit TabardIn dot com. Uh so when I was growing up, I would read uh all my mom's books, including of course the famous Julia Child's Mastering the Art of Uh French Cooking with Simone Beck, but I never really got much out of that.
+
+[50:28] The very first book that my mom bought me when uh I moved out of college uh with my eventual wife, we got an apartment, was Julia Child's uh The Way to Cook. And so that was kind of my seminal introduction. And by the way, I think probably although I haven't read it in years, still kind of a a a great book. But at that time, um Julia Child's main you know career as a television personality was mostly in the past. She had like some TV shows on.
+
+[50:56] This is at this point in the in the mid to late in the early mid-late nineties uh but the kind of second wave of people that she had brought on were really big on TV and one of those people was uh Jacques Papin so uh Jacques Papin was uh the chef for uh I believe he cooked for uh Charles de Gaulle he cooked for uh Mitterrand uh and then when he came to the United States he actually quit being that kind of a chef to come to the United States to work for all of things Howard Johnson's and uh so I was huge you know I I loved him I I was introduced to him actually through uh Julia Child's work and then he had his own show uh which I which I used to watch um at some point in the in the 90s when I moved to New York I stumbled and this is before I met him so long story short when I started working for the French culinary institute Jacques Papin was uh one of the deans there so I kind of got to work with him kind of get to know him remember what this what the interns used to call him Jackie Peeps I thought you named him that well I made it up but then they started using it Jackie Peeps so we uh so I would work with him uh on a lot of stuff we used to see you know work with with demos together but before I ever worked at the French culinary I think one of the reasons they wanted to hire me was because I found in a uh in a thrift store a a book uh a two volume set I actually only found one volume and I had to search for years to get the second volume called uh Jacques Papin's The Art of Cooking and this is a uh a book that I think anyone should search out if you want like a view into kind of a very specific time in kind of the crossover between French cooking and American cooking. So this was put out uh by Knopf back when uh, as uh it was told to me, old man Knopf still ran the publishing firm. And this book was a two-volume set on French cooking. It was put out in 1987. And it was a huge bomb.
+
+[53:02] It didn't sell hardly any copies. So this is not, this is not uh Jacques Papin's like one volume that was used to be two volume set of black and white step-by-step shots. This is a full color two-volume set, including uh Jacques Papin's uh making menus, but his step-by-step stuff on how to how to make kind of all of these crazy things. Back before I could look the stuff up on the internet, Jacques Papin had how to devein foie gras in these books. Uh he just has like a whole series of this like weird, like old school recipes that I think you should really really really um take a look at, including like his famous uh techniques on many different ways to eviscerate and uh and break apart chickens.
+
+[53:47] So Jacques Papin was very famous for saying he could uh completely debone a chicken in I think like 12 seconds or something like this. Now, when I knew him, he wasn't quite that fast anymore, but he was still pretty fast. Uh and I still to this day use the technique uh for that Jacques Papin does for when I'm gonna bone out a chicken to keep it whole, which is you know, you cut down the back, you open up any you you could look it up. He's put that online. Nastasia makes fun of my.
+
+[54:11] I used to be very fast. Nastasia says I'm terrible because she's only seen me try to do it with turkeys, which are significantly harder to debone. What were you making fun of me for, Nastasia? I can't remember what you were doing. But like I had to talk about it and inside out bone without cutting a turkey, and you were making fun of me.
+
+[54:26] Yeah, I don't know, whatever. Any any opportunity to make fun of me. But this book didn't sell anything, I think, because Americans weren't quite ready for it. In it, he tells you how to uh eviscerate and skin a rabbit, uh, and how to take a whole baby lamb, rip its skin off, take the guts out, uh, and prepare all the different parts. He was friends with a lot of like interesting uh people.
+
+[54:47] So there's a recipe in here for chicken salad that was given to him by Danny Kaye, uh the actor and uh conductor musician, uh, which uh to this day it's kind of like an old school low temp way of bring of putting the chicken in, putting lots of chicken into a small amount of uh broth with uh vegetables, bringing the pot up to the simmer and then covering it and letting it ride out as a way to cook it all the way through without overcooking it, which is a technique I used for years before I had other better uh techniques. So definitely a classic in the field uh worth searching out. I spoke to him about it once, and I was like, hey, uh hey chef. I was like, uh, you know, I have this uh your set of books from Knopf in the 80s, and he was like, This is your best books I've ever made, but uh I can't sell them. Anyway, so you basically he even said this is his master work that you should go check it out, even though it's completely it was completely impossible uh to sell it.
+
+[55:40] And when you look at it, it's kind of cool to see an old uh like a young Jacques Popin. You're not used to seeing this young Jacques Papin, are you? It's kind of like, you know, I mean, how cool does he look? Cool? Cool.
+
+[55:50] So that brings me to uh the other classics in the field that I have today, uh, which is when I read Jacques Papin's memoir, which came out I don't know, 10, 10, 12 years ago, something like this, uh, he mentioned one of his favorite cookbooks, and it turns out when I read that that it was also one of my favorite cookbooks, but you have to find the correct editions. So uh there is a famous set of cookbooks called Um uh well, there's a famous cookbook author, uh Henri Paul Pelleprat. Pelop I don't know what Pelleprat, Pelleprat, in a in English it would be Pelleprat, but it's probably Peleprat, which is uh the French it's spelled Pelleprat. Anyway, it's the it's called the Modern French Culinary Art in English. And this was a book, this guy was uh the chef who uh helped, he was the founding chef of the Cordon Blue School in Paris, which, and this is where the circle turns around, uh, where Julia Child got trained.
+
+[56:41] So uh the Cordon Blue Cooking School was founded in the 1890s, and it was um kind of a uh what's called a collaboration to go back to uh Jordana. How would what do kids call that now? A collab? I guess. Collab.
+
+[56:55] Uh between uh Marta Destel, she was a a journalist, and uh this chef, uh Pelleprat, who was um they started this cooking school in 1895, specifically for women. Now, in their modern way of putting it, it's they want to uh provide the emancipation they wanted to provide the emancip uh what's it emancipation of women through education, which seems kind of a goofy thing to say about a cooking school back in the day, but it was specifically aimed at um teaching uh women. Now, uh Pelleprat, he was a professional chef, and then between World he taught at the culinary school, then at World War I, I think he had to uh deploy for a little while. In between World War I and World War II is when he wrote this famous book. Uh and then he writes, and this this book, this copy of it, and this is the important part, you need to look up to get a copy of it, you need to look up the Virtue Press.
+
+[57:44] So the Virtue Press came out with uh a series of books. They were a publishing house out of Ireland and London, and they translated a bunch of French works. Among them is the is the Modern French Culinary Art. The edition I have is from 19 in the late 1970s, but or the early 1980s. But you have to you have to get it.
+
+[58:08] And he uh he basically says it is a great. I'm trying to read the the Pelleprat section. He thinks the author thinks that this is a book that people are going to use at home. So this the interesting thing about it for me is this kind of idea of modern day people when they want to learn professional cooking, learn professional cooking. And it's very different from home cooking.
+
+[58:32] And people who are interested in home cooking are more interested in kind of modern cookbooks of quick and easy meals or how to do this or that sort of uh kind of uh cuisine in a in a simple way at home, rustic kind of cooking. But this whole era was full of how to do extremely weird high-end stuff but in a home style, i.e. not necessarily having all of the base sauces. So that's the interesting thing about uh um Jacques Papin's The Art of Cooking and about uh Pelleprat's book. But he goes, I can't find the the section because I did lost my post-it notes, but he um he goes through basically saying that everyone else who writes books on this subject uh are charlatans, and how he has taught people how to cook at the Cordon Blue for over 30 years, and every single recipe in here he's cooked himself, and therefore this isn't some BS that other writers uh write.
+
+[59:23] This is the real deal. Uh and so you know, for that reason alone, and because this was Jacques Papin's favorite cookbook as a young man growing up, uh came out initially, I think, in 19 in the 1940s. He died in 1949, so this probably came out in the like 30s or 40s to look at. But the other books you need to get out of this virtue thing, and this is the one that I think Nastasia would enjoy, is called Buffets and Receptions. Now, buffets and receptions, and you want to get the edition that I have, which is from I believe 1979.
+
+[59:54] It's a translation along with uh editing into English uh by some chefs Pierre Mengalate, Walter Bickel and Albin uh Abel Abelnet. Uh and this book, if you can find it, is the biggest gem of a book that I think you can get. If you think that finding like an old LaRussa gastronomique is interesting, you gotta get this. Not just because it's the only cookbook you're gonna have with a recipe for whale in it that tells you exactly what size whale you need to buy. So if you get and by the way, I'm going to Iceland and I'm not gonna eat whale.
+
+[1:00:27] I don't want it. Would you eat whale? No. I would not eat whale either, and I'm not you know saying you should you know eat whale, but there is a recipe in this book. But uh the pictures in this book, if you ever wanted to know uh what the buffet customs of any like European uh country were in the 70s and before, because all the people who were writing this book, these two books, the Peloprat and this book, have connections all the way back to uh actual kind of Victorian times, and so it spans an era of cooking that's really lost to us.
+
+[1:00:56] So when you go see like a uh a buffet at a cooking school and you see all that stuff in Gillet and Aspic, it's kind of like weird and ridiculous, right? What do you think when you see that stuff? Negros like all kind of touching, touchy, touchy, touchy food. But when you read this book and you look at these pictures, it goes back to an era when this was really much more of a live thing, and so you have like the crazy, crazy presentations of like uh a peacock made of uh butter with like all sorts of like food terrines. Look at this, Nastasia.
+
+[1:01:28] Wow. Look at this, like the trout, like totally laid out. So there like I used to just sit and read this book for hours. I don't think I've ever made a recipe out of it. But I used to sit and read this book for hours.
+
+[1:01:39] Look at this. Look at this, look at this rock lobster thing. It's like all the crazy, like high aspic, high touching, high uh, you know, puff pastry presentations. And so they really are a treasure. I don't believe that any of these books are available uh on Google Books because they're all still within copyright.
+
+[1:01:57] But if you can look up the Virtue Press, the modern French culinary art, uh, buffets and receptions, uh, and the New International Confectioner, which is the third of their main things that came out of that series in the 70s out of Britain, some of the best kind of 70s uh pictures that you're ever gonna see in cookbooks, like uh just like cool, amazing window onto the past, really a great set of editions, and Jacques Papin's uh books out of the 80s. Oh my god, that's hundreds of dollars of books I just dropped on the ground. Uh The Art of Cooking, which is a fantastic series, maybe outdated for all you people, but the people on the YouTube aren't doing all these old school things. People on the YouTube are doing new school stuff. If you want a window in the past, you gotta look at the step-by-step pictures of uh the stuff in the it that was happening back then.
+
+[1:02:42] And if you go any earlier than these books, if you go into the 30s and 20s, there are some step-by-step books with step-by-step pictures of what's going on, and I can bring uh some of my old confectionary books in to talk about at some point. But um because of the relative uh cheapness of production of books later on uh and relative cheapness of photography and printing, this kind of book only really became as big as it is later. And so you gotta look to this era if you really want a window into that era of cooking. Anyway, classics in the field. Talk to you guys later, cooking Issues.
+
+[1:03:20] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com slash Heritage. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:03:46] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:04:13] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces.
+
+[1:04:40] Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
+
+[0:30] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[1:00] This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery, celebrating 100 years of being a dairy farm family owned cooperative. Learn more at Cabot Cheese.coop. That's cabotcheese.co P. This week on Meet and Three, it's our season four finale, and we're sharing some of our greatest kitchen joys. Maybe most people consider making it too much work or too messy, but this is the food that's worth the work and worth the wait.
+
+[1:30] You always know where the thing is because you put it away the right way the first time. You just sort of stand there and find, you know, with your hand on your hip and one leg outstretched, less of wine in your hand, staring into the refrigerator going, okay, speak to me. Oh, yeah, what are you doing with the celery tonight? I am making a simple syrup for a gin cocktail with the celery. And I also found a recipe for a celery soup that's gonna use up the celery and the potatoes and some of that dill that we still have hanging out in there.
+
+[1:59] Tune in and be inspired to find the joy in your kitchen. And don't forget to subscribe to Meet and Three wherever you listen to podcasts. This time not my fault, though, not any of our faults, really. Just a miscommunication. We thought there was some people, Matt, in the booth.
+
+[2:36] Yes. Thought there's gonna be no show today. Other people thought that there was a show. From Robertus Pizzeria and Bushwick! Showing as usual with Nastasia de Hammer Lopez and Matthew in the booth.
+
+[2:49] What's going on? Are you guys not officially making shows this week? Oh no, we are this week. This is a weird thing where because there are two sets of holidays this fall. Uh Labor Day, you take off a Sunday, Monday.
+
+[3:01] Uh Thanksgiving take off a Wednesday, Thursday, so a Tuesday had to fall somewhere. Last year they chose to make it this one. Oh. Wait, a Tuesday what? You gotta skip a Tuesday somewhere.
+
+[3:13] What what? Wait, explain this to me so that I so that a moron like me can understand. What there's a holiday on Monday, so you have to skip a Tuesday? Over the course of this year, we've got or this season, we've got a Sunday, a Monday, a Wednesday, and a Thursday off. That's almost an entire week.
+
+[3:31] So those Tuesday shows would randomly have one extra week, so the easiest move is to just skip one. Oh. Yeah, but we skipped the last like million. Well, that is true. Yeah.
+
+[3:43] Uh right, because and also we're not here next week because next week I will be doing my yearly trip to uh Harvard and then out to Los Angeles where Nastasia is getting us ready for the Houdini Party. Nastasia, you want to describe the Houdini party? Why don't you describe it and I will talk about other things after. We need other things to talk about what's what it's for MoFad. Okay so here's what happens.
+
+[4:08] Nastasia Lopez and the boondoggler Rebecca Rebecca the Boondoggler, our PR person, who doesn't like to be called a flack when you meet her, do not call her a flack. Apparently this is an insensitive term to use for public relations professionals, true? Yeah. Why? You already call her a boondoggler.
+
+[4:25] Anyway, go on. You call her the boondog don't place it all on me. Boondoggler is a term of endearment. Endearment. It's term of endearment, but I'll notice how Nastasia now like gives up.
+
+[4:34] I like calling right, yes. I said this is a boondoggle you said that made her upset. Then you and I both started calling her the boondogger, let's be honest. No Dave, you came up with it. But go on.
+
+[4:45] Okay, so we're going to LA. We're going to LA Nastasia, first of all Nastasia and R Rebecca are just obsessed with Los Angeles in general. I why I don't know. No we're not okay, sure. But anyway, so like they're like we're gonna throw this party in Los Angeles.
+
+[4:59] It soon spiraled out of control into this like giant McGilla kind of like all this cool stuff. Like Nastasia's like we can't just go have a party because the first party we threw was so terrible that it was known as the subpar tea first party we threw. That's when the circulator was on the floor when there was the pirate in the dress cooking your meat. Yeah, when Nastasia managed to like do everything in a way specifically, seemingly designed to like flip every switch to have me blow my stack instantly, had me fly in literally as the party was starting. Anyway, go on.
+
+[5:34] So anyway, so that was the sub party, right? We had it at a place that had no internet access and no one could get to the place. It was like great house, though. Anyway. So to make up for it, Nastasi's like, and Rebecca are like, we're gonna rent.
+
+[5:50] No, then we did Appleheads. And that was good. That was an event, yeah. But not but you wanted to throw a party. That was at a bar.
+
+[5:56] That was a uh a pop-up at a bar. Nastasia does may or may not believe that Harvard and Stone. You're the one that just said it! You said it first! No, you said it first.
+
+[6:08] You just said it on the microphone. Matt, Matt. I don't even know what you guys are flipping out about now. I missed it. Who on the microphone just said drug front?
+
+[6:16] Real low. Who is that? That was Nastasia. I'm gonna assume it was Nastasia because I didn't hear it, and I normally hear what Dave says. But it doesn't even make any sense.
+
+[6:26] What? No, that has to stay in because we don't believe it. It's not true. We'll discuss later. Yeah.
+
+[6:31] Uh anyways, so they're like, Nastasia's like, do you know that there's a Harry Houdini house in uh in Los Angeles? And then Austin, who we work with, Austin Hennelly, who's at Major Domo, who we work with out in Los Angeles a lot, was like, my brother's a magician. So it just started kind of spiraling out of control from there. And then we realized that all of this stuff's gonna cost a lot of money and be kind of like bigger than we can just kind of pay for. So we decided to, we're like, we're gonna do it as a fundraiser for MoFan.
+
+[7:04] So Purnault Ricard got on board somehow. We have Dan the Automator on board, somehow is coming in to spin at this party. Yeah, yeah, you know, Jeremiah Stone and Fabian Vahoski from Contra Wild Air and the Pizza and all this stuff. They're gonna be there cooking food. But the best part We have hold on.
+
+[7:25] We have we have uh Jack Shram from Existing Conditions, uh Austin Hennelly from Major Domo, and I think Nick Bennett, maybe from Porch Light, is gonna they're gonna be there slinging slinging booze. Ariel Johnson, you know, is now the is now Alton Brown's science advisor on uh Good Eats, is gonna be there, and some Nastasia is convinced, and you can call in and let us know that it's better if we all dress in costumes. So she is trying to rent, get this. She is trying to rent a Zoltar. So Zoltar is the fortune teller in a in a in a glass box.
+
+[8:01] So she's trying to rent a Zoltar outfit for Harold McGee, who's gonna be at the party. So uh Harold McGee's gonna be at the party there, Ariel Johnson, uh, what were the other costumes uh bearded lady? She's gonna be a little bit. Yeah, Ariel Johnson decides she wanted to be the bearded lady. This is a low quality top hat, Nastasia.
+
+[8:16] I'm gonna get you a better one. That one's mine. Uh this is an I can't put it over my thing, but I Dave and I are gonna be uh this Nastasia's Nastasia's top hat is made out of it's made out of panty hose. Squish it. Uh I hope you know that I I only deal in real fur-felt hats.
+
+[8:32] This is a this is a we can't. This is a this is a, as we say, garbage hat. Please tell me you guys have a themed couple's costume. Well, no, we are the we are the ringleader. Let me see.
+
+[8:44] I'm gonna take my earphones off and put on the hat here. See, it's not bad. It's terrible quality hat. No, you look great. Yeah, from far away.
+
+[8:50] Yeah, from far away. So we're gonna come close to you. Oh, and then we have the monster Maker from Universal Studios coming and bringing a life-size Houdini ghoul. Uh, that uh is is uh are we gonna spout wine out of this thing's mouth? No, you won't allow us to do that, but Nastasia's gonna try to uh contract this person to make us a wine zombie.
+
+[9:08] Anyway, so uh oh anyway, so we have five tickets. Most of the people coming are celebrities, food people friends of ours. We can't it's for Mofad. We can't we can't invite friends of ours because it's for MoFed. Like influential people, no.
+
+[9:28] Alright. So anyway, so fundraiser for Mofad. There will be an auction uh at the uh at the event proper as well. Uh should be uh loads of fun. And that party will be next Thursday.
+
+[9:41] So if you want to attend, and we only have five tickets, uh, you can bid on those tickets at 32auctions.com slash Houdini. And 32 is the number 32 auctions.com slash houdini. Dave will tweet it later. Who? You will tweet it.
+
+[10:00] Who? You will tweet it. You will tweet it later and you will Instagram it later. But we only have five tickets. By the way, Houdini.
+
+[10:06] They start at $500. Houdini was a bi coastal fellow. It's gonna be fine. Did you know that? No.
+
+[10:11] He like uh his other residence is here in New York City, so we should try to rent out his uh Upper East Side uh townhouse at some point. Yeah, do a Houdini thing there. So Austin's brother will be there doing some sort of magic. I don't really understand everything that's gonna happen because Nastasia is making it all happen uh along with the Boondogger. There will be Apple Headed Dolls.
+
+[10:30] By the way, oh yeah, it turns out, Nastasia, uh, I don't know if there's anyone out there. If you're out there. So it turns out that the internet's a marvelous thing. And uh Flowrida's song Low, you can get uh an a cappella version on the internet. Like you can just go on YouTube and search Flowrider Low Acapella and you can get just the vocals and then you can get the instrumental tracks.
+
+[10:55] I don't think I'm gonna have time because I'm preparing not only for the party but for the Harvard lecture next week. Uh so it's the 10th anniversary, I think, of the Harvard class, so it's a big kind of it's a big kind of public lecture situation with like Harold and the gang and all that up at Harvard. If you happen to be in Boston next Monday, we'll be doing the public lecture, anyone can attend. Um I don't really know how to look that up, go to like Harvard SES SEAS uh, you know, cooking class and look it up. Anyway, uh so you can get this, and so it would take only a small amount of time if you knew how to do it right in engineering knowledge to change the vocals to have them just say apple headed doll instead of apple bottom jeans, and then we can just play that clip apple headed doll in the boots with the fur, and if we could do that with the fur, we would like then we can make one of our because there will be apple heads.
+
+[11:47] There will be. I have twenty the apple heads. Now listen, we all know that there is a vicious stereotype out there. I made everybody do it this weekend. There is a stereotype out there of like people who grew up in like SoCal who are half Mexican, half Ukrainian, Russian, right, sitting in their apartments in uh in Hell's Kitchen alone carving apple heads.
+
+[12:15] We know this is a stereotype. Vicious stereotype. Vicious. Vicious stereotype. So Nastasia is not one of those applehead ladies.
+
+[12:24] P.S., speaking of appleheads, for those of you that I don't know, have never listened to us before. Explain what an apple head is. Applehead, oh my God. We were supposed to do Drina Dotson as classic in the fields today, but we didn't. So Drina Dotson is the undisputed queen of the Applehead.
+
+[12:42] We can do it in LA when we tape in LA. Alright. Drina Dotson, undisputed queen of the Applehead. Her Applehead book is like the rarest of all of the three Applehead books that you can get. Explain what an Applehead is.
+
+[12:55] Applehead made me the oldest of all dolls. So Drina Dotson in her introduction to Applehead dolls. Yeah, Adam and Eve time, she's like, listen, if they had apple trees and the apples shrunk, that was basically an applehead doll. So right up there with the, you know, right up there with prostitution was Applehead dolls in terms of early cultural achievements. So like Applehead dolls are like, to Drina are the the oor, the oor apple, the oor doll is the applehead doll.
+
+[13:27] Uh and we also, in peak cooking issues fashion, looked up all of the references to doll making that Drina Dotson mentioned in her 1967, I think? Yeah. 67 classic Applehead doll. What's the book named? Applehead dolls for fun and profit or something like this?
+
+[13:43] For fun and profit. For fun and profit. Uh so what you do is is you take this applehead, and applehead dolls were a thing for like a week and a half in the late 60s, early 70s, so much so that uh was it Hasbro? For Pleasure and Profit. Was it Hasbro?
+
+[14:00] Yeah. I think so. Hasbro came out with the Vincent Price shrunken head maker. Now, shrunken heads, of course, refers to the actual uh like Amazonian, like Ecuadorian, Peruvian, Amazonian um practice of shrinking human heads, which is it's there's too much to get into on the actual technology of how to shrink an actual human head. Spoiler, you you cut the skin off the head from the back, uh boil the skin in a tanning preservative solution, pack it with hot sand, and keep the features in rough shape as it shrinks down into something that's only the size of a like a little bit bigger than a human fist.
+
+[14:38] So that's a traditional kind of shrunken head uh manufacturing. And by the way, uh you used to be able to it's har terrific, actually, used to be able to go buy actual shrunken heads in South America, so much so that they started killing people specifically to sell to uh Europeans and Americans shrunken heads, and it's it's a whole nightmare story, whole bad thing. Uh the process was uh the trade was made illegal like a long time ago, like a long time ago. Anyways, so Vincent Price somehow got roped into uh saying that these apple head dolls were shrunken heads, and because he was a horror star back in the day, you might know Vincent Price as the laughing uh the laughter at the end of Thriller. Not that we listen to Thriller or anybody, I don't want to get into it, but uh Vincent Price, well-known horror uh actor and like you know, all around kind of character actor that you remember from the from the you know middle part of the um 1900s.
+
+[15:36] Anyway, so he was the face of this apple head. What's his face saying on the box of the apple head to it looks like it's saying I'm gonna shrink your head. And so it's a it's a thing that fits over an incandescent light bulb and allows you to make your own apple heads. And we got it in the mail app. We got it, we own it.
+
+[15:53] So you take an apple, you you you treat it in salt and or lemon juice, and then you cut it into a kind of a rough face and then you shrink it down. I use an excalibur dehydrator, and then Nastasi and I use it for uh cocktail garnishes. But and why do we do Appleheads, Dave? Uh, because Nastasi and I had a meeting once with uh a meeting with the partners of Booker and Dax where we were talking about contract disputes, and somehow Nastasi and I had started reading about Applehead dolls because we're stupid, and uh they were saying that Nastasi and I couldn't have a business together other than Booker and Dax, and I just like I went from like zero to explosion instantly, and I said, if Nastasi and I want to start an applehead business, or you were to tell me I can't! Like that, right?
+
+[16:45] And then like they were like, Nastasi was like, I want to start an applehead business. Right there. And that was it, right? Isn't that how it went? Yes.
+
+[16:56] Like, damn, that's what I want to do. So that's what we're doing. Yeah. So come, so bid. Yeah.
+
+[17:03] So back to uh back to other things. So Nastasi and I have all been in interesting places while we've been away. The past uh almost two weeks, I've been in Iceland, so we could talk a little bit about uh food and whatnot in Iceland. By the way, Iceland, like amazing place to visit, so expensive. So oh, shout out to Apatech.
+
+[17:23] We got uh Jonas, I saw in the wild a copy of Liquid Intelligence on the bar, and then saw uh one of their bartenders, Yonas on the street, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, I like liquid intelligence, so shout out to Iceland. Although buying liquor in Iceland's so expensive, their taxes are so high. So you should go to Apatech and enjoy their cocktails. By the way, you can go to a glacier. Uh you can go to many glaciers, because like Iceland has so many glaciers and they're melting so fast that you'd think that that climate change would cause the like you know the sea level to rise in Iceland, but their glaciers are melting so quickly that it's actually reducing the weight of Iceland such that Iceland is rising out of the ocean.
+
+[18:02] That's how messed up it is. Anyway, um so they have this glacier lagoon that's only been around for like 50 something years because as the glacier's been melting back, it formed this glacier lagoon, and icebergs, like honest to god, icebergs break off and float into this glacier lagoon and then out onto this beach called Diamond Beach and out into the ocean, and you can go walk walk around near these icebergs. They're like, Don't walk up, don't ever, because you can kayak, don't ever walk on the icebergs. They could flip over at any moment. It's like the one thing they tell you, don't walk on the icebergs.
+
+[18:34] So Dax and I were like, hey, hey, are we allowed to walk on these icebergs? Come on. Anyway, so the icebergs, you like chunks of them come off and float right up to the shore where you can pick up, like, you know, like a basketball-sized like iceberg chunk that's perfectly clear because it's from the inside of an old glacier. So if you go to a volcanic glacier in Iceland, it's full, full of ash. Because like every 10 seconds, this giant volcano cotla, every 50 years would erupt and spray tons of black ash everywhere.
+
+[19:05] So the glacier's like ice ash, ice ash, ice ash, ash. And then as it melts, it turns into j giant piles of black ash. But in this other glacier over on the on the eastern side, there's a lot of clear ice, and so you could pick it up. I was like, you should sell this stuff to cocktail nerds, like like like like guests from America and Europe who come to the bars, and he's like, Well, yeah, I don't know that people would pay a lot extra, but I think if you had a tourist going to a bar in Reykjavik that they would pay extra for an iceberg piece of ice in their cocktail. What do you think, Stuff?
+
+[19:38] Yeah, it was a good idea. Yeah. You know what the guy said? He's like, well, in the old days, the glacier was so close to the highway that fisher, you know, the the people who are fishing would drive their trucks, back them right into the glacier, and then just chainsaw giant chunks of ice and chill their fish with it. But he's like, the glacier has melted back so far that they no longer uh they no longer do that.
+
+[19:57] I was offered whale many times, did not want to eat whale, didn't have whale. I wanted to eat puffins because I'll eat the hell out of a puffin, but they're actually dwindling in numbers, and so I didn't see any puffing on the menu. I did have Icelandic split lamb's head, which is one of the things that they're kind of known for. And there's geothermal everywhere in Iceland. Everywhere.
+
+[20:15] I mean, not everywhere, many places. So there's lots of places where the ground is at cooking temperature, and they have this um kind of cultural thing where you make this brown bread, which they call root broth or whatever they call it, however you pronounce it. Icelandic, impossible to pronounce, don't even try. And uh they bake it underground in in a pot for like 12 to 24 hours, and they make these underground geothermal steam breads, which are also known as thunderbread because apparently if you eat too much of it, you get a little bit of thunder down under, you know what I mean? It kind of runs straight through you.
+
+[20:44] But they're they're almost a dead ringer when they're fresh out of the ground. They're they're sweeter and and and moister, but they're almost a dead ringer for New England canned bread. New England canned brown bread. But these have obviously a much higher rye content in them because they're made with rye bread. So that was some of the interesting stuff uh I had there in Iceland.
+
+[21:02] And then the week before that, in uh Taipei, I had all sorts of cool stuff. So uh there's a uh there's a nut that one of my old interns, Eng Su, who is from Singapore kept on trying to get me in um New York and it's got various different names uh devil's pod uh water caltrop or uh the technical name is trapa bicornis but it looks like a bat like a bat nut and so they've always been described as a water chestnut and I've never had one so we're in the night market in Taipei and I see this guy who looks like the human equivalent of a bullfrog like he's got like his eyes are kind of huge and he's just sitting there and he's not moving like he's on a lily pad just not moving for like an hour we're sitting there eating stinky tofu and all this other stuff he's not moving and then I'm like notice he's all he's selling is like these bat nuts and no one's buying anything from him and so we go over there and he tells you know Eva who is you know uh taking us around he's like Westerners don't much buy these things so it's not it's not something that that you get outside a lot but I'm here to tell you they're very good and they taste much closer when they're kind of steamed or roasted and served on the street to a regular old fashioned chestnut than to a water chestnut. So if you're ever in the area uh get one however I will note uh you must cook them because they have uh they're fresh water and they have parasites that grow in them and the parasites will do nasty things to you if you do not cook them and there's nothing Nastasia uh loves more than a parasite another interesting food uh Taiwan Taipei uh specifically that you don't get elsewhere is called Ayu Ayu jelly and it's not that it's delicious but it's very interesting I mean it's good it's very interesting for this property so it's not related to Ayu the freshwater fish that I think makes excellent sauces in Japan. It's uh Ayu is the name of this fig product. So what they do is there's a thing called a creeping fig, right?
+
+[22:54] And you can they I don't know if there's American creeping figs, but I don't know if they if they work the same way. But um you take this creeping fig, you take the fruit, you cut it open, and this is relatively recent, only the past I think hundred, 150 years they've been doing this. You turn it inside out so all the little seeds from the fig are sticking out, and then you dry it. You then massage these seeds in cold water. Now remember, in Taiwan, I looked this up, and this will become important in a minute.
+
+[23:20] They have more much more calcium in their water in Taiwan than we have in New York City, which is a very kind of soft water. So you massage it, you massage the sack. It's called washing the ayu, and you put it in like little kind of like almost like cheesecloth tea bags, and you do it, and then you pull out the tea bag, and in like 30 minutes it sets to a solid thermo heat irreversible, so you can heat it gel. Uh, and it's really cool. And they serve it as kind of a thirst-quenching summer thing because it is freaking hot in Taipei in August.
+
+[23:51] It is freaking hot. So, anyway, so uh I looked it up and it turns out that it's a rare uh kind of uh it's a rare occurrence in nature of a completely native, easily, easy to extract, low methoxy pectin gel. And so I brought some home and I'm gonna try to uh experiment. The other one, you like this term. Ready for this, Nastasia?
+
+[24:11] It's called Big Intestine in Small Intestine. This is this was one of my favorite things that I had there. They take a they take a like a large intestine and they stuff it with rice and they steam it like a sticky rice, and then they slice that like sausage, that rice sausage, just rice, down the middle and put like pickle cucumber and a sm and an uh a regular sausage made with small intestine on the inside, and those suckers on point. On point. One of my favorite things I had.
+
+[24:39] Nastasia's now wearing her garbage top hat. Uh had many other good foods in uh in Taiwan, but that's the kind of the stuff I wanted to um I wanted to tell you about. Uh what do you have in uh Italy slash uh France? Any good food? Uh no, in France we went vegan.
+
+[24:54] What? I sent you that photo. I thought that was just one time. Yeah, no, we that was the one time. We ate fine stuff in France.
+
+[25:01] Um, but in Italy. Everyone's closed in France, right? Is August still was uh France still closed when you know it was it was Ferragosto, so it was like the last week of anything. Before everyone just goes on vacation? Where does France go?
+
+[25:14] I don't know. I don't know. Egypt? Because Bobby Murphy from the bar was in France like the week after you, and he's like, there's nobody here. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:23] Did you just say Egypt? Yeah. Really? Mm-hmm. Huh.
+
+[25:26] All right. Good to know Egyptian tourism stuff. Then I went to Massimo Batoro's restaurant in Italy. And you correct me if I'm wrong, how how was it? Great.
+
+[25:35] You said you were with someone that that like was not a food person, though. How'd that go? I was with someone who's not a food person. Uh it went fine. You said that she was like, ah, it's taking so long.
+
+[25:47] Oh, yeah, let's say. You imagine you get to go to like a three-star Michelin restaurant like Massimo Batura. It's like beautiful, like everything's beautiful. Like people wait their whole how many tables they have in that restaurant? Three.
+
+[26:01] Three tables. So you're taking one of three tables. So it's like this is a hot commodity, this table. And like, oh my god. All this food.
+
+[26:12] Jeez Louise. Oh no, no. Uh and then we went on a truffle hunt. Uh yeah? Yeah.
+
+[26:20] It's uh not the right time of year for truffles. Way to put 'em back. What? Way to put them back. Yeah, but it's that's not the right time of year.
+
+[26:27] I know. But they're a little right now. Yeah, so like does it does it kill them to take them out and put them back? No. So says the person, like, they don't s how do you even hunt for them if they don't have their characteristic smell because it's the wrong time of year.
+
+[26:39] They still smell. They smell. Or the dog found them, and yeah. Yeah. So now you and I have both been on truffle hunts.
+
+[26:46] You know, I I tried to train my labrador major to truffle hunt, and he you need to start with truffles to teach them to truffle hunt, don't you? So what you do is you train them if you're cheap like me, you train them on truffle oil. So what you do is is you get truffle oil, and you the first thing you do is you train them in the house, like with like you put a little bit on it, and then when they you put it down, and when they go, you first you just give them the scent and you start feeding them treats. So they associate the fent the scent of truffle with treats. Then you put the thing down somewhere close and you you give us a term like I was I used uh search, right?
+
+[27:21] And so then when Major would go over to the thing, I would be like, and like shove treats in his face, right? Then you hide it in another room. And then if they go to it, then treats in their face. Then you go from that to taking a Q tip, putting a little bit on it, and then going out into a yard and putting it like you know, a half acre away and being like, search, and then when the dog finds it, you're like, oh my god, you're attacking that treats right in the face. You know what I mean?
+
+[27:52] So did you do this? Yeah, so Major could find a Q tip with a little bit of truffle oil on it, like across an entire lawn, like easily. But the problem is is that you know, the the truffle experts we were talking to in Oregon at the time were sure that there was some form of truffle, you know, on the I used to have property in Connecticut on this property in Connecticut based on the that kind of tree cover that I had. And but Major never sm smelled anything underground. He was able to consistently find uh like a truffle oil scent anywhere I put it, but was never able when you just gave him search out in the woods any time of year to find anything in my neighborhood.
+
+[28:32] But Major is too big of a dog to take out to Oregon and like put him with you know one of their trained truffle dogs and see whether or not um you know he could do it. But I guarantee you in Italy, Major could Major could bust out some truffles. Maybe not anymore. He's a lot lazier now than he was like, you know, four years ago. But you know, it's hard to teach an old dog to dig truffles.
+
+[28:57] But he was pretty old at the time. He was like three or four, and now he's like seven. He doesn't care anymore. Um so what else? What else with the truffle hunt?
+
+[29:04] Did like why did you go truffle hunting in the summer? Because it wasn't for for summer truffles. You were hunting for real truffles. Right, yeah, we found white truffles, they were small, we put them back. Who told you it wouldn't kill the truffle?
+
+[29:17] The guy who you were paying to the truffle guy. Okay. Yeah. All right. Did he plant them there as like a as like a I went to Italy once and hunted pheasant with big quotes around it that tell you about this?
+
+[29:28] Yes. And like, because they were they it was for a TV shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was for a TV shoot where we were supposed to be like really like learning how to do things. I really did, I forget how to do it, learn how to split a sheep's head from an old school Italian butcher with nothing but a knife, no saws, no nothing.
+
+[29:45] And you know, like do it really well. And I've since forgotten it. They the trick is you gotta put your fingers in the eye sockets. That's the trick. Anyway, by the way, the sheep's head they served in Iceland, they removed the brain.
+
+[29:57] Yeah, I don't eat brains anymore, but I thought they'd still serve it with the brain. They also didn't crisp it at all, and they served it with the skin on, which is not how I'm used to it. Anyway, uh back to this. So, like we're supposed to shoot a pheasant. So we're out there, uh, it was Johnny Azzini and I.
+
+[30:11] We're out there, and they're the only reason they did it was they wanted to train their dogs. So they they they just they stun a pheasant and put him in a bush, and then they try to get the dog to run after him to flush the pheasant out so that you can shoot it. It's really not hunting at all, it's pathetic. You know what I mean? And the dog was too stupid because they hadn't trained it properly yet, it was ignorant, let's say.
+
+[30:33] And it wouldn't run after the pheasant. And so they were like, you know, they're like, you know, whatever they say in Italian, what do they say? Andiambo. They're like, hey, yeah, hey, go. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:41] And like, and the dog wouldn't go, so eventually they they they had to sit there and like toss sticks at the pheasant to get it to fly. It's pathetic. I I still feel I don't feel bad about it because I ate the pheasant, but it's not sporting. Yeah. You know, if I wasn't eating the pheasant, it would have been a horrible travesty.
+
+[30:57] Yeah. Anyway. Um, we should do this thing. What? What thing?
+
+[31:04] Alright, let me answer a question first. Alright. Alright, answer a question. Andrew writes in about stabilizing peanut butter. I love nut butter.
+
+[31:12] Nut butter is a gross word, right? You made it, you made a gross word face, nut butter. You the crinkling's tape is quite loud. Uh I love nut butter, but hate when it separates, and yes, I'm very lazy. Uh I would buy no stir peanut butter, but it always contains added sugar, and I have to watch my sugar sugar intake pretty closely.
+
+[31:29] I'm curious, is the sugar actually necessary to hold the emulsion? Uh emulsion. I think it's just kind of anyway. Uh I know they also add palm oil, which I would believe uh helps keep the fat solidified, but presumably since sugar is so ubiquitous, it also serves some rolls. What is it?
+
+[31:46] Would it be feasible to use other stabilizers to keep peanut butter smooth and not separating? I just want to avoid the sugar. Interested in either commercially available products or something I can mix into store bought at home. Thanks for the advice, and by the way, I love existing conditions. Okay.
+
+[32:00] So uh I think the reason that the like uh so if you look at uh let's say Skippy, uh the ingredients in Skippy are roasted peanuts, corn syrup solids, which is very important, corn syrup solids, sugar, uh soy protein concentrate, salt, hydrogenated vegetable oil, uh, and it says literally to prevent uh separation. Mono and diglycerides, those are their uh I don't know why, I guess those are helping to emulsify it, uh, and maybe also for other purposes, and vitamins. So if you look at that, it's really the sugar is there for flavor. I'm almost 100% sure because when I I don't I wasn't able to find any data on uh you know, I did a quick uh search uh and I wasn't able to find anything on sugar being stabilizing. And in fact, the opposite is true from my experience.
+
+[32:47] When you want to vastly increase the yield of nut oil out of uh ground nuts, add sugar. Uh or if you want to break your grinder, add a lot of that, you know, not like a like a you know how when you're blending nuts, you'll add uh like sugar, like powdered sugar with starch to like uh stop it from clumping. Uh if you grind it in like an actual like plate grinder and you add sugar to it, it will turn into such a thick paste that it will clog and almost destroy your your grinder. Um so I don't really know why. Like sugar affects it so much, but I always add sugar, true, with a little bit of water in the form of simple syrup, but I add a little bit of sugar to it and it breaks, it breaks it and causes the oil to come out very, very, very, very much more so.
+
+[33:40] Now I don't know whether it's because the sugar is actually adding moisture to it, and that's what causes it to weep oil so much faster. That might be the case, because if you uh look at peanut butter, it's got less than 2% moisture in it. That's the that's the number you should really be looking at. So I I would guess that um sugar, if anything, is gonna probably make it less stable. But that's just that's just my guess.
+
+[34:03] Um so but I think the reason that people who add stabilizers also add sugar is because 99% of the people prefer the taste of peanut butter with sugar in it, and they're selling to the 99% of people who want sugar in their peanut butter. Uh what you really want to add is I think it's the mono and diglycerides and the palm oil that's doing it. And so you can look at uh and you can get the abstract of it. The functionality of palm oil is a stabilizer in peanut butter uh by Kay Ariana, 2006. Uh, and you know, they they they talk about it uh and the effect of stabilizing with this, so you could probably get some sort of a high melting point fat like palm oil and some mono and diglycerides, which are sold by the Ferron Adria Corporation as Gliss or through Modernist Pantry, you can also buy mono and diglycerides and kind of melt those into your palm oil, stir it in, and that should help uh stabilize it.
+
+[34:53] Uh, I don't know the numbers, but uh I don't think it's gonna be a problem. What do you think? Oh, by the way, the internet had an interesting solution for this. It's been posted over the last year where they're like uh just turn your jar upside down. So if you store your jar upside down, the oil is gonna go towards the bottom of the jar, and if you keep doing that back and forth, apparently you can stop it from fully separating out.
+
+[35:15] I have not tested it. That is just what these folks do. Another thing that I would have assumed is that like light nuking of the peanut butter could help just by heating it, making it a little more uh fluid so you can mix it. But it turns out that microwaving, especially chunky peanut butter in the microwave, is very problematic because uh because there's so little moisture in it, uh you tend to get very localized uh areas of the peanut butter heating up drastically, and then those can go black, and once they go black or brown, or if the microwaves get absorbed into, like for instance, the chunky part of the peanut butter, preferentially over the rest, those will scorch and turn into char nuggets on the inside of the peanut butter. So if you are gonna nuke your peanut butter short bursts, make sure you stir it in between bursts and realize that it could be extremely uh problematic.
+
+[36:05] But that was an interesting, an interesting microwave problem with uh peanut butter. All right, now what do you want to talk about next? We got um we have we have some chocolate liqueur that one of our radio listeners made. All right. Josh.
+
+[36:16] Do you have a glass? We can use these. So we're drinking a chocolate liqueur out of water cups. It's a hundred uh what is that? I can I I don't know, you're the one with eyeballs.
+
+[36:27] I hope this this is uh from uh Josh to Nestas. He sent back his Sears all shirt because it's a gilding. This is the guy who hate who does not like gilding shirts. So apparently we are we are low quality, well, we know we're low quality individuals, but our t shirts are not of a high enough standard. Uhsi, I hope this finds you well.
+
+[36:46] Here's the Searzol shirt as well as some chocolate liqueur I made. Um it is 100% neutral grain spirits cooked in a circulator at 56 uh Celsius with Valrona cocoa. Milkwashed using a spinzall TM. I like the TM, thank you, Josh. And cut sweetened with turbinado cisnerp.
+
+[37:03] Whoa, whoa, whoa. Approximate ABV and bricks. Oh, it's 25. Okay. Uh it's quite good in a brandy Alexander if you're into that sort of thing.
+
+[37:10] Uh should be enough to share or not. Enjoy Josh. All right, Josh. Well, even though you do not appreciate uh Nastasi's choice. And uh she's like he's like, what kind of t-shirts?
+
+[37:19] Gildan, oh no. Oh no, no. Oh no, no, not a guildan. What's the issue with Gildens? They're rough, I guess.
+
+[37:25] Rough. By the way, if you like a fancy Josh, if you can hear this, what are your thoughts on Bluffworks t-shirts? I think they're quite nice. By the way, uh Ministry of Supply sent like sent me, they're out of Massachusetts. They do kind of high-tech kind of like uh like mountain to boardroom kind of clothes, and they sent me uh like a suit that I wore in Taipei so you can rumple it up into a ball, then wash it off in your shower and it dries in a couple of minutes.
+
+[37:50] So I I did that. But they sent me these pants and I took them out on a glacier. And the guy, the glacier guy, was like, you need rain pants. It's raining and you're on a glacier. This glacier I went on was like so like everything's melting constantly because it's a summer.
+
+[38:05] But like we were literally doing uh what's a push-ups into the glacier. All of us were doing push-ups into it and just drinking out of the streams of melt water coming off this glacier. We're like, drop down, give me glacier. So we're doing that, but like he was like, those pants are not waterproof. I was like, suck it.
+
+[38:24] And they were. Josh just said, uh, the man who made this stuff. Bluffworks is cool. Gildens are boxy. Well, as a boxy man myself.
+
+[38:35] That's fine. Show. Their fit model is Dave's body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is quite good, actually.
+
+[38:43] I like it. What do you think, Sad? It's good. Yeah, good product, Josh. Good product.
+
+[38:47] There's a slight fruitiness to it. What is that? Think it's just an Evelrona? Hmm. I don't know.
+
+[38:53] It's good. I'm gonna give that a good. I appreciate it. Okay. That's the highest compliment that you can give.
+
+[38:59] That's true. What do you mean? Oh, another thing in Iceland. They it's hard for them to grow things there because it's hard for them to grow things there, right? So they eat a lot of fish, they port a lot of the stuff they grow.
+
+[39:10] But you know what's growing wild everywhere? Angelica. Angelica, you know, Angelica? It's good for um PMS and female issues. Is that true?
+
+[39:19] Mm-hmm. Is that your new show? Female issues? Yeah. Is what was the name of uh of uh John Waters' famous uh film?
+
+[39:27] Is that female problems? I don't know. Anyway, um so they have Angelica growing wild everywhere, and uh so I bought home, they sell the seeds, which you rarely get, like the kind of green, not dried seeds, and they make a tea out of it. So I'm trying to work with that and seeing whether or not they make me some, maybe I'd be in a better mood. I don't know whether the world is ready for Anastasia Lopez that's in a good mood.
+
+[39:51] You know what my mom said when she was here? What? When she went to the bar, she was like, You're not really like how you are on your Instagram. I wish you would show the world how nice you are. What?
+
+[40:03] Yeah. She said I didn't raise you to be like this. But you say that she did raise you to be like this. No, she said I used to be very sweet, and I am my mom. Well, that's what people also say about me.
+
+[40:15] So clearly, like you and I working together has been terrible for the vote. I uh the FCI? Nope. Yeah, ask anybody. Before I had to start working with other people, I was the nicest, most patient guy.
+
+[40:28] And then as soon as I had to start working with other people, I realized that the world is terrible. What does it mean to be patient when you don't interact with other human beings? It's like this. It's like like people who okay, so like people think I'm gonna lose their mind, I'm gonna lose my mind on them, but I don't. If I don't respect them.
+
+[40:47] It's not true that I don't respect them. I don't have any expectations, right? So if I don't have any expectations for what you should already know or already be able to do, I'm mellow, right? Because my assumption is why should anyone why should anyone know about my weird, like, you know, ticks and proclivities and problems and like all the weird stuff that I demand like out of what I make or what's being made around me, right? Why should anyone know that?
+
+[41:14] So because it's a waste of your time. No, I'm happy to teach people, but why should someone know that, right? So there's the there's no there's no blame. It's like blame, it's like blaming like it's like blaming the wind for blowing. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:28] Like what it there's no point in it. But it's like when you've been working with someone for years, for years, and they do the same thing over and over again, it's like it's like people say, Dave, you you you you know, you you go from zero to a hundred instantly. I'm like, no, I'm always at 99, and when you but my 99 is real mellow. Like my 99 is like normal. Like, you know, I can contain it until I hit a hundred, but it only takes that one drop to put me into a hundred mode when it's when it's the same stuff over and over again.
+
+[42:02] You know what I mean? So, like back when everything was my you know, everything was my own fault, I would get mad at myself, but no one would notice that. You know what I mean? I still get mad at myself. Yeah.
+
+[42:12] Is there anyone I get madder at than myself? No, and that's why you and I get along. Because, yeah. Yeah. I am my worst critic.
+
+[42:20] Well, except for some things. You think you're good at darts, you're terrible. Sure. I like that you okay. Eddie Vanel writes in about acid OJ.
+
+[42:28] We've just started playing uh with it at home, and it's uh tons of fun so far, besides the Dr. J, which is you know an orange julius variant with milkwashed uh uh rum. From your book, what other classic cocktails do you think work well swapping in acid adjusted orange for lemon or lime? Uh we made amazing whiskey sours the first day, of course. Uh Eddie Dennel.
+
+[42:47] Well, really anything. I think you know, it's just fun to have around and to play with. But let me tell you something else. And you can acid adjust. Uh we did a I did an acid-adjusted uh what was it the other day?
+
+[42:59] We did a bunch of acid adjusted stuff. I can't remember whether I acid adjusted it. I think I did. We did a cumquat syrup that was crazy. So if any of you have had the Coursera, which is Moroccan preserved lemon, lime, uh tequila, and simple syrup.
+
+[43:14] We I did a cumquat version with uh a 50-50 OJ cumquat acid adjusted split base lime, and it was r uh ridiculous. But the thing is you don't want to get too much, you need to get enough solids out of the cumquat uh to have it be portable, but not so much that it's clear because then you lose the the thing. So it's a a medium clarification. So it's one of those situations where you don't want to fully clarify. Same thing with uh preserved lemon juice.
+
+[43:43] Um, can I say something? Sure. I beat Robert at Bananagrams and now. Okay, why don't you explain who Robert is so that people have some reference if they're not friends with ours? Okay, Robert, who was on the show, bar guy, well known bananagrams champion.
+
+[43:59] And I said, if I ever beat him, I'm gonna retire my playing of banana grams. And he attributes his bananagram skills to his homeschooling. Yeah. And to like the fact that they were fiercely competitive at home. Yes.
+
+[44:14] Yeah. Anyway, so I beat him yesterday. So does that mean you're never gonna play again? Yeah. That's bull crap.
+
+[44:20] This is like trying to find a loophole. This is like Karen was also in on the game. Yeah, but you shouldn't make statements like that. That's why that's why you're never gonna see Billy Joel live in concert. I know.
+
+[44:29] It's ridiculous. Go see Billy Joel live in concert while he's still okay. I can't. You can. Screwed it up.
+
+[44:38] It doesn't mean you have it. It doesn't mean you have to live. It doesn't have to be a punishment. You don't have to punish yourself for skipping out, buying tickets too far in advance, and not putting in your calendar and forgetting to go to the concert. And working a vegan event with you.
+
+[44:52] Yes, working a vegan event with me does not mean that you are doomed to a Billy Joelist life where you never get to see him at the garden. It's just not, Matt, back me up on this. Uh no, yeah, you should go. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery.
+
+[45:16] Celebrating 100 years of being a dairy farm family owned cooperative. Cabot Creamery Cooperative has been in continuous operation since 1919. They make a full line of award winning cheeses, Greek yogurt, sour cream, cottage cheese, and butter. And you can taste a century of commitment in every bite. It's simple.
+
+[45:34] The best milk makes the best cheese. Cabot is known for its award-winning cheddars. They're naturally aged, naturally gluten-free, and naturally lactose-free. Try their classic mild, sharp, and extra sharp cheddars. Or spice it up with habanero cheddar, horseradish cheddar, and pepper jack cheese.
+
+[45:54] After 100 years, Cabot Farmers' commitment to making the world's best cheese and dairy products has never been stronger. When you love what you do this much, the best is always still to come. Cabot is owned by 800 dairy farm families in New England and upstate New York. And 100% of its profits go back to its farmers. As a certified B Corp, Cabot is committed to doing the right thing in business.
+
+[46:19] They even have a department of gratitude for them to honor, amplify, and reward those who give time to do good. Much like the farm families of Cabot do in their own local communities. Learn more about Cabot Creamery Cooperative at Cabot Cheese.coop. That's Cabot Cheese. Nate Simon writes in.
+
+[47:17] They do. They really do have nice trees there. Don't care. My precious treasures. Precious cheese.
+
+[47:24] Dave, are we doing the chicken cannon? Yeah, yeah, but listen. So uh I gotta answer the question. I can't believe I was actually about to answer a question without going on a tangent, and you were you're like, hey hey, what about the chicken cannon? So listen, there's a lot of water soluble flavors in uh smoke.
+
+[47:42] So if you smoke it beforehand, just expect that the bag juices are gonna leach a lot of that stuff off. Now, if it's real smoky, it's not gonna matter, but you are gonna get some leaching off of the of the flavor. Um a lot of people I know, and I don't have a lot of experience with post smoking, but a lot of people post smoke. A lot of people also really do like liquid smoke. I don't have that much experience with it, and I've never had the really good stuff.
+
+[48:07] The only stuff I've ever bought is the supermarket stuff, and I'm gonna give it a firm nah, right? But liquid smoke is real smoke, right? It's just been um, it's just been an extract of real smoke, so it's not all of the things in real smoke, and sometimes, as I like to say, it could be a bit of a one note Nancy, but you can get very good liquid smokes now. Uh spray dried smoke powder is good. You have to be careful with it because over application makes it acrid and nobody likes kind of uh acrid smoke.
+
+[48:36] So you could try any one of those things. But I would do a brief brief, but uh relatively heavy after low temp smoke, and if you let it cool sufficiently before you put it in and use a thick enough cut, I don't think it's gonna overcook that much, but that's just what I would recommend, not having done uh too many experiments. Matt, who apparent not you, Matt. Matt, who apparently asked you about nixtimalized apple head dolls. What does that even mean?
+
+[49:00] It says, I'm the person who messaged you about nystamalized apple head dolls. How do you nyxtimalize applehead dolls? I don't know if it's a DM or an email. But you can't what does that even mean to nickstamilize an apple? Nixtimalizing is something you do to the seed coats specifically of corn, but can be done to other things.
+
+[49:19] What does niximalization have to do with apple heads? Hold on. So anyway, here's the question I sent in. Uh look forward to the show returning, and I hope Italy is nice. Recently I saw Dave eating dim sum on Jack's Instagram.
+
+[49:34] That's when I was in Taipei. As a dim sum lover myself, it got me thinking, I have some questions. Please forgive a three-part question. But one, what is your favorite go to dim sum dish? You know, I don't really have I I'm kind of a bad person.
+
+[49:47] I don't really have a favorite. Do you have a favorite style? Do you like going to dim sum? No. Why not?
+
+[49:52] Do you not like all the. It's not your thing? No. Wow. Do you not like things on carts?
+
+[50:01] Do you not like ordering lots of little things? I don't know. I just don't go. Oh, there's this place in LA that's gonna reopen that's shaped like a pagoda. Did you know I thought I was Chinese growing up?
+
+[50:12] This is sounds terrible. Please never say this again. No, it's true. Why? Who did someone say that you had to be?
+
+[50:17] My grandmother would always go to Chinatown in Los Angeles, and it was such a treat because I would get a Shirley Temple and Joey would get a Roy Rogers. So what does this have to do with the channel? She would speak Chinese. She actually spoke Chinese. What little she could, like menu Chinese or like restaurant Chinese with the waiters, and I was like, I think I'm Chinese.
+
+[50:35] Like, how is she able? Because it was so foreign to be at these places. Yeah, but this is like this is terrible. This is why you're this is one of the this is kind of like you're heading into terrible territory. It wasn't basically looked heavily on this.
+
+[50:48] Help me out on this. I'll allow it. Alright, you'll allow it. Alright, listen. I just never want to discuss it again.
+
+[50:55] But I'm glad you enjoyed your trips to Chinatown as a child. Um on the spectrum of things that have come up that we should definitely never ever discuss again. This isn't that. That's not that far along. What?
+
+[51:07] Sassy doesn't even not even self-aware. Never mind. Yeah. We do have one other question from the chat. You want to get it?
+
+[51:12] Sure. What kind of skewers does Dave use with his tandoor? I don't have a tandoor, but I'm really liking the quarter inch plus thick square skewers for ground meat kebabs. I lay them straight on the kettle grill over charcoal, no great. So he wants to know what kind of skewers you use on your tandoor.
+
+[51:28] Alright, so skewers for a tandoor is an interesting problem because in fact it's very hard to keep uh certain kinds of products on skewers because as they cook, they loosen and slide down. Other products get firmer and uh are stay on the skewer easier. So like certain meats uh like they seize up when you put them in the tandoor and those stay on really well. Like you're never gonna get a shrimp falling off of a skewer, right? And this brings me to there's there's two funds, there's there's two choices.
+
+[52:01] There's three. There's shape, there is uh uh like dimension, the how big around it is, and there is uh material. So if you have things that want to slide, then you want to use uh black steel or you know, iron, iron-like black steel skewers because they're rougher, and so they're gonna have better grip. If you're gonna do stuff that's gonna seize on, it's gonna shred when you take it off the skewer. You want to get that look more kind of cold-rolled, stainless kind of kind of skewers.
+
+[52:33] Um square ones for certain things can be better in terms of being able to rotate without them uh turning on the skewer, but it it really depends on getting the the weight right. So the heavier the thing you put on the skewer, the more you're gonna have to do double skewering and the more you're gonna have to kind of weave in and out, especially if you're actually doing hashtag vertical grilling in a tandoor. As soon as you're going in a kettle and you're going horizontal, almost none of this matters. If you want to maintain things in very delicate shapes, then you can do the kind of old school Japanese fanned out three thin skewer thing to maintain shapes and then like flip the fan, which is quite quite easy. Um I am such a lazy weasel bastard that I actually uh, you know, towards the end of when I had my giant cowboy grills, instead of doing skewers, I would just get the kind of large clamshell opening, um, like flat spring-loaded grill baskets that were like lay flat, and then I would just put infinite, infinite on them and then squeeze them shut, and then it's just like wham wham, and you can fit a lot on it and you don't have to skewer them as much.
+
+[53:39] It doesn't work in a tandoor, right? Because it's hard to suspend that, but it does work on a flat, uh a flat grilling surface. You just have to make sure you get one that doesn't have a lot of plastic because the plastic can melt if you get the handles kind of um too close to it. But they're very easy to pick up, they never spin like a like a skewer does, and stuff never falls off. If you are using it in a vertical grilling situation, you have to make sure that whatever you're doing uh won't slide off, and a lot of what people say doesn't work.
+
+[54:06] So like jamming an onion on the end of it doesn't work. As soon as the onion heats up, it's gonna start falling off of the skewer and it's a nightmare. The other thing that they don't tell you when you're working with tandoors, is that you need that the last thing on that skewer is gonna get burnt to hell. Burnt to hell. Because it's the closest and there's more radiant heat down there.
+
+[54:26] So you want to put some stuff on the end of it that is uh going to kind of be that you can kind of either want it more overcooked or you can kind of pitch, or else keep your stuff way further up this uh up the skewer. Do not attempt to have the stuff go all the way down anywhere close to the bottom of the skewer if you don't want to have some real real sunburny, like over-grilled action on the on the bottom of it. Uh, what I really wanted to invent was like uh a little like for like weasels like me who want to do things that you shouldn't do, i.e. overload a skewer and put stuff that's too heavy on it. I wanted to just make a little uh like a like a like a skewer clip that just went on the end of it that was like easy on, easy off, but uh I never did it, and there might be problems with overheating it and losing spring temper uh at the bottom of a grill, but that's kind of what I always wanted to do.
+
+[55:18] I just never bothered getting uh uh around around to doing it. But that's my feeling on uh on skewers. Now, uh a large square skewer, if you're doing vegetables, it'll wreak havoc, it'll shatter a vegetable. So that's when you need a thinner skewer, right? Or even sometimes a flat skewer.
+
+[55:34] Uh, you know, if you're doing uh, you know, in before they're cooking, unless you par cook them. So if you're doing something like potatoes and you want to get a little bit of that stuff in, if if you just shove a big skewer through them, sometimes you'll crack them, especially if they're smaller, right? Smaller potatoes, but if you par cook them, then you can shove one right through it, then I would go with something thicker, but realize that the potato doesn't have a lot of structure at that point, unless it's just a light par cooking. By the way, I had a lightly cooked uh sweet potato uh salad that was actually okay. The potatoes still had a they were they were just at the point where they were starting to feel they hadn't gone to mush, but they were just cooked to be almost like a potato and a potato salad, and I was surprised because I thought I was gonna hate it.
+
+[56:14] Also had that in Iceland. I wouldn't have bought it, but I couldn't translate the word sweet potato inside the store because I didn't have internet service. It just said something cartoful salat, and but I didn't know that anyway. So surprising. Anyway, that's my feeling on skewers.
+
+[56:27] By the way, I gotta finish this god dang question. Oh my god. Oh my god, what? Uh so my favorite go to one thing that I do like I really like steamed buns. I really, really, really like steamed buns.
+
+[56:41] Uh my favorite steamed bun is the molten lava steamed bun that's like made with salted uh duck eggs. And one of the things I really like about it is that uh it's all you almost never get one that's very good, but when you do, they're amazing. So a lot of times the inner coating is too grainy and it or it doesn't sag right, but if you get well molten lava one that's on point, it's really good. Where are you going? Just turning this off.
+
+[57:05] You you're already cold? Yeah. Before you're like, I'm sweating my joinies off yeah, and now you're like too cold? Anyway, alright. The best or underrated or uncommon dim sun dish to look for.
+
+[57:16] Hmm, I don't know. And the best dish to uh uh assess the overall quality of a place. I don't know. He cares a lot more about like he he's gonna be a lot more. When next time we have Jack Shram on, he'll get about it.
+
+[57:28] But Matt from Winnipeg said uh that he's hoping for duck feet uh as the answer. I do like I do like duck feet and chicken feet, and I had some really on point uh chicken. What about duck tongues? Have you ever had remember when Nils used to make duck tongues all the time? I really like duck tongues.
+
+[57:43] Do you like duck tongues? I don't think I've had them. When you have chicken feet, do you like them gooey? I've not had chicken feet either. You've never had chicken feet?
+
+[57:50] So me asking you whether you liked them gooey or crispy is like I imagine crispy. So crispy, it's like you know, the new style where you pressure cook them, make the bones edible, and then you deep fry them. That's on point. That's on point. But you like to take the nails off, you think?
+
+[58:05] Would you like it with the nails on or the nails off? Off, I think. Off? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[58:09] Okay, outstanding in the field, Dave. It's not called outstanding in the field. You don't even know what it's called for real? For real? Classics in the field.
+
+[58:17] There you go. Classics in the field! Alright, so for this week, uh, I was supposed to be, and I'm too stupid because Nastasia and LA. We'll do it in LA. We'll do it in LA.
+
+[58:28] I have scanned the entire Drina Dotson. Tell me what you think. Everybody. It's only a 16-page book, right? It's a classic in the field.
+
+[58:37] The classic in the field. I have it fully scanned. I think Nastasi's like, people are gonna take it away from us. It won't be our thing anymore. I'm like, everyone in the world should have free access.
+
+[58:51] We have made zero profit off of it, and I bet you somebody will. Uh we are no one is gonna make profit off of the applehead dolls. I wanna hear from the internet on uh the cooking issues uh listeners. I wanna hear, like, do you think we should make Drina Dotson's uh whole book available on my Instagram account or not? And it w before we go to classics in the field, didn't you say you wanted to talk about chicken gun?
+
+[59:19] We're gonna do it like after after the Houdini party. We just need to get the shoot ready. We're gonna do the chicken gun people. I wasn't lying about it. It's in Nastasia's place and it's filling up her entire place.
+
+[59:34] And threw it away. It's not possible to unassemble it. It's glued. No, he started to take the wood. He touched it.
+
+[59:41] Did he touch it? I saw him going for it and I said, Stop. He did not. Did he touch it? No.
+
+[59:46] I need to know if we're saying that. He did not touch it. Every one of those bolts is exactly torqued to a certain number of foot knocks. Why would he do it? Because he was cleaning up my house.
+
+[59:57] And he was like, what? What about the air compressor? The air compressor's fine, it's there. Everything's there. Everything's there.
+
+[1:00:02] Nobody's, but I'm telling you, we got to get it. It is a huge safety problem if anyone touched those bolts. Nobody touched the bolt. Like it's already a huge safety problem because PVC shouldn't be pressurized with air. For those of you that are building like any form of air cannon, PVC is a bad material because of the way it shatters, especially when there's compressed air in it.
+
+[1:00:21] I need to know am I still as safe as I was before. Son of a gun. Which sounds very safe, by the way. Just as someone not involved. Yeah, right?
+
+[1:00:33] You know what? It's like, I just want to make it through. I just want to make it through this next couple of years, like physically intact. You know what I'm saying? A noble goal.
+
+[1:00:42] You know? It's like I have a couple of goals in life. Like I don't want to catch fire again. I'd prefer to never catch fire again. I don't want to get shocked.
+
+[1:00:50] It's not even near the same. Getting shocked doesn't hurt you nine times out of ten. You know how many projects have been ruined because Nastasia, even when there's no electricity involved, when I tell her to hold something, thinks she's gonna get shocked and just drops it and walks away? Even when it's not connected to electricity. I enter a piece of wood, hold this.
+
+[1:01:07] It's gonna shock me. She'll stop it. Static could have built up. Every time I can build up static, I shock her with it. Back when we used to test uh Ikajime, which is the Japanese, you know, fish killing techniques.
+
+[1:01:20] I received as a gift from uh uh a fish, a fish and anesthesia corporation, a muscle tester, which is basically a little it's a little electrode that you can put on freshly killed fish muscle to see if it still twitches, i.e., does it still react to electricity? Is there still ATP in it? And Nastasia would not for any amount of money let me shock her with it. She just was losing her mind over it. How hard did you go?
+
+[1:01:46] It's not that it's it's weak. It's a nice one. I'm at a moment of money. Did you ever play the that uh that like uh that game that Dax had? No, that game that where you have to hold it and then and the last person who pushed it.
+
+[1:01:59] No, no, no, no, no. But I was around when that was around, no. You would never play no, no, no, no. It's weird. I don't like heights.
+
+[1:02:08] So I guess maybe it's the same thing. I don't like heights. Yeah. But it that's not actually gonna hurt you. Get catching on fire is in fact bad for you.
+
+[1:02:16] For your skin. For me, for your whole catching on fire is a bad idea. Oh my goodness. Today's classic in the field is uh now. This is one that you know a lot of you are you're already gonna know this, but uh I felt I was looking through my books this morning and just seeing like a group of things that I hadn't talked about in a while, and what popped out at me was stalking the wild asparagus by Yule Gibbon.
+
+[1:02:41] Now, Yule Gibbons. So Yule Gibbons was born in uh 1911, uh, and he lived uh until 1975. So he died relatively young. He died in his in his 60s, but I guess in the 70s that that wasn't so bad. But he grew up like very poor.
+
+[1:02:57] Uh even before the Dust Bowl, his family was poor. So they moved around a lot, and his mom taught him at a very early age how to forage for uh wild things. And he had a crazy, he had a kind of crazy life. They moved all over the country. Uh he worked for a while as a circus bindlestick.
+
+[1:03:13] Uh he worked as a in a circus. He worked, he was a hobo. He just went everywhere. Um then, you know, he originally uh when he was young, he was a communist, uh like you know, active, you know, activist, and then till World War II with Soviet aggression and in, I think in Poland, he's like, no, and he like renounced his kind of so he's did everywhere, did all this kind of stuff. And in the 60s, he was trying to write a novel, and he ended up instead, uh, because his literary literary agent said you know all the stuff about wild food, he ended up writing about wild food.
+
+[1:03:44] And he wrote the very first, I think, really famous uh book on foraging called Stalking the Wild Asparagus in 1962. He followed it up with Stalking the Blue-Eyed Scallop in 1964, and then he wrote a book which I thought was amazing, uh, which was the uh you know you know what outward bound is, Nastasia? It's like where kids go and they they go out and they have to fend for themselves. He actually wrote a manual for outward bound for these islands that I used to visit off in Maine. So he's writing about wild foods at a time when no one else was writing about wild foods, and he just kind of loves the subject.
+
+[1:04:17] And so I think these books, even though they're somewhat outdated, um, you know, both I guess in the style of writing and and in what he's saying, uh, are kind of I think kind of magical reads because this is a guy who's just excited about doing what he's doing. Even though he made like he would, in other words, he wasn't a survival guy. He would go out, he would forage for stuff and bring it home and cook it, often with terrible recipes, often with a lot of other weird canned stuff. I mean, it was the 60s in America after all. So, like, you know, the food he was making wasn't necessarily the best best, but for sheer love of what he was doing, it was kind of amazing.
+
+[1:04:52] In the 70s, right before he died, he became immensely popular because he did a series of grape nuts ads. So did you like grape nuts growing up? No. I hated them. Did anyone like grape nuts growing up?
+
+[1:05:04] All the people. Matthew, did you like grape nuts? Absolutely not. Have you tried them recently? Uh I have tried them.
+
+[1:05:10] Somebody was using them as a as a descriptor for beer at one point. That's dumb. What do you mean back? What for beer? What beer tastes like grape nuts?
+
+[1:05:17] Uh Belgian double. What? Grape nuts is more of a texture. It's like little pieces of gravel. I didn't like grape nuts because the box was so dang small and they were so heavy and they were gritty, and like I didn't get the whole thing.
+
+[1:05:31] They weren't sweet enough. I was a kid that dumped sugar all over my cereal. I don't know about you, Nastasi. Like I love Cheerios because I would dump sugar all over them. And then you get that sugar milk.
+
+[1:05:39] That sugar milk at the bottom. That's all important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so Yule Gibbons started doing all these grape nut grape nuts commercials, and you can look them up on the video. The most famous, he's most famous for one that maybe never even happened because uh it was parodied so much.
+
+[1:05:55] But he would say, I'm Yule Gibbons, many parts of the pine tree are edible, and I like grape nuts. So he like does his stuff, and so like many parts of the pine tree are edible became a thing. Like Johnny Carson made fun of him, Carol Burnett, which is how I learned about him when I was a kid. Carol Burnett made fun of him. I first started reading him when I was in my in my twenties.
+
+[1:06:12] Um but you can actually look him up and he's like, Cattails can be eaten, but you're not going to, so eat grape nuts. And he already be like, I'm out foraging for part of my breakfast. Here's a high bush cranberry bush. This goes good on grape nuts. And so he would just go on and on.
+
+[1:06:27] So he became kind of like a little bit of a like a joke character because of his like because of his shilling out for grape nuts. I mean, I would chill out for grape nuts. If anyone wanted to pay Nastasi and I to shill out, by the way. Like, we're game. Let us know.
+
+[1:06:39] Let us know. It's like we just know, you know, no one's ever uh 2020 is the year to be happy. That's our year. Really? No, it's probably gonna be the year after at this point, let's be honest.
+
+[1:06:48] We're gonna have to push it. There's no way that China's gonna build the next product in time. Like we're we're hosed. We're never gonna be happy. Well, you know what product we can build and build in time for 2020.
+
+[1:06:57] No. Oh, geez, Louise. Okay, so anyway, so stalking the wild asparagus and stalking the so the stalking the wild asparagus is about plants. He also did stalking the helpful herbs, which I don't have that much of a memory of. But um, they're both about foraging, uh, and they aren't region specific.
+
+[1:07:13] So you're not gonna be able to do everything. Now, a lot of it is East Co-centric because he spent the last half of his life on the East Coast in Pennsylvania, but a lot of it's not. So he talks in in Stalking the Blue-Eyed Scallop about um uh foraging for uh gooey ducks, uh, although some people disagree with his methods of gooey duck foraging, uh, about abalone back when you could do that. So it's really just books about the love of going outside. And I'm gonna read a little bit from the uh titular uh chapter, Stalking the Wild Aspagus.
+
+[1:07:45] When I was about 12 years old, we lived near the Rio Grande in New Mexico. At that age, I didn't mind school so badly when the winter weather made it disagreeable to be outdoors. But when the first warm days of spring arrived, I only existed through the five days each week in order to really live on Saturdays. I would be off early every Saturday morning to the river, the woods, or the surrounding hills to see what nature was doing about bringing the earth back to life and to revel in all the changes that had taken place in the week before. On one such uh Saturday morning in spring, I was walking along the bank of an irrigation ditch, headed for a reservoir where I hoped to catch some fish.
+
+[1:08:19] Happening to look down, I spied a clump of asparagus growing in the ditch bank with a half a dozen fat little spears that were just the right size to be at their best. By the way, asparagus should be fat, Nastasia, not those thin, garbage, lignified, stringy, nonsense asparagus things that you bought at the farmer's market. The worst everybody knows asparagus should be fat. That was Jack. Okay.
+
+[1:08:44] Uh fat little spears that were just the right size to be at their best. The idea of reaping where I did not sow has fascinated me all my life. I took out my pocket knife, cut the tender tips, and dropped them into the pail in which I intended to carry home any fish I might catch. Even while I was cutting this cluster, I saw another with several more perfect little sprouts. Alerted, I kept my eyes open and soon found another clump and then another.
+
+[1:09:07] So he ends up not fishing that day. He's just getting he's just getting uh uh asparagus. Um the the important part about it is is he goes, about this time I noticed that an old dry last year's stalk stood alone above every clump of new asparagus tips. If I could learn to distinguish these old asparagus stalks from the surrounding dried debris, then I would be able to locate the hidden clusters of green spears from a distant distance. Despite my impatience to be off seeking more of these tender spears, I sat down on the ditch bank and for five minutes I did nothing but just look, which is great advice, at one uh at one old dried asparagus stalk.
+
+[1:09:43] It looked very much like the dead weeds and plants that surrounded it, and yet there were differences. After getting the size, color, and form thoroughly in mind, I stood up and looked along the ditch bank. Instantly, I saw a dozen old dead asparagus stalks that I had missed. So he learned then to look at a distance and see anywhere at the right time of year, whether or not he was gonna be able to get asparagus. And this is what he's trying to teach you how to do, to observe so that year after year you can become more a part of the world around you and glean from it what what you what you can get.
+
+[1:10:13] Uh before another spring, he talks about unfortunately, uh, right after this happens to him as a kid. Before another spring, my parents had moved to a high, dry plateau further west, and I was a middle-aged man again before I saw wild asparagus again. The next time I saw those familiar dead stocks that had beckoned uh for me to come and pick the green treasure at their bases was one spring when I was driving along a country road in Pennsylvania, shortly after moving to the Commonwealth Wealth where I now make my home. And so then, like years later, he has this uh this memory and he comes back and he does it more and more. And he ends by saying, I suppose this wild vegetable is really no better than the cultivated kind, but because of the memories it evokes, it always tastes better to me.
+
+[1:10:53] It is exactly the same species as the cultivated varieties. Birds long ago scattered the seeds from domestic plants, and now all over the eastern states and in irrigated sections of the west, wild asparagus grows in fence corners and hedgerows. Um my neighbors often smile when they see me by the roadside with my asparagus knife and pail. They think it is much simpler to merely buy the asparagus one wants at the supermarket. But I have a secret they don't know about.
+
+[1:11:16] When I'm out along the hedgerows and waysides gathering wild asparagus, I am 12 years old again, and all the world is new and wonderful as the spring sun quickens the green things into life after a winter's dormancy. Now do you know why I love wild asparagus? Cooking issues! Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:11:37] For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageRadio network.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:11:59] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome dot com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Brooklyn Botanic Garden, a stunning 52-acre garden in the heart of Brooklyn. Open year-round. Learn more at BBG.org. I don't know. Not every Tuesday.
+
+[0:54] What the hell, Stuas? We got all this stuff going on. Stash, Stas, Stas, read it later. Read it later. There's no cash in the envelope.
+
+[1:01] Don't worry. There's paper. There's an envelope from Heritage Radio Network on our chair. She shows up and immediately on air starts ripping the thing open and shaking the envelope like she's like it's her birthday and it's 12 years. She's 12 years old.
+
+[1:17] It's her birthday. You're not supposed to read the card, right? Oh no. You don't want to rip the card in half because your parents want to look at the card. Yeah.
+
+[1:24] But you somehow want to open the envelope and shake out the card. The card gets read if money shakes out. If the money, if there's no money shaking out of the envelope when you're a kid, right in the trash. Right? Doesn't even read it yet.
+
+[1:39] Envelope? You mean cash vehicles? Uh so uh we have to get off the air exactly at one today because there's another show coming on. Uh so this is going to be in a brrr abbreviated show. Yep.
+
+[1:54] Um, calling your questions to 7184972128, 7184972128. I don't even know if anyone's listening today because I didn't tweet out that we were back on and we missed last week. We were supposed to do it. For some reason, whenever Nastasi and I are with Harold McGee, and we're like, we're gonna finally get him live on the show. Live on the show.
+
+[2:12] Something comes up. I don't know why we didn't do it. You know why we didn't do it? Because the engineer we had hired thought we were gonna do it two days earlier and we couldn't do it. So listen.
+
+[2:22] I don't know why. It's because we didn't have an engineer. I forgot he left. It was all a blur. Everything last week.
+
+[2:28] Alright, listen, listen, listen. Uh at the end of the uh show, I want to talk a little bit about a friend of mine. So we're gonna do this whole show in semi-reverse order. So let's do this. Let's not talk about our week or anything yet.
+
+[2:41] That's gonna be the middle of the show. Let's just answer some questions. Let's just answer some questions. Hey, Nastasia, every interval of time has a beginning, a middle, and an end. You're gonna go into questions.
+
+[2:51] You're gonna go into a tangent and we're gonna get off the air. How much money do you want to put on that, Matt? This no, this show is a well-oiled machine. It goes in a straight line. It's definitely a point B.
+
+[3:02] Well oiled in the sense of greasy. It's greasy, it's slippery, it's hard to get a hold of. Exactly. Uh hello, Nastasi and Dave. I have a question and can't remember if there is a show today.
+
+[3:11] There is. Uh I make a I made about 10 pounds of bratwurst of various types, and I'm curious as to the best way to store them for reuse later, since I won't like I likely won't use them all before they go bad. Uh you're just not eating enough. You can't you can't take down 10 pounds of bratwurst. Don't you have friends?
+
+[3:27] Uh no, I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying you don't have friends. Um I likely won't use them all before they go bad. Uh I did not use curing salt on any of them. I did use garlic in two of them in case that matters.
+
+[3:40] Uh for this, I don't think that ma I don't think that matters. Um, the three options I've considered are one, freeze raw. Two, cook low temp at around 57 to pasteurize, then freeze. Three, cook low temp at 68, which seems to be a good temp for eating, then freeze. Uh I have enough of each type that I could test this, but I wondered if you had any initial thoughts slash experience here.
+
+[4:03] Enjoy the show and look forward to making it back to existing conditions next time I'm in NYC. Tyler, now, uh I don't have any specific, specific um experience. However, I will tell you this. It is a well-known fact. It it now uh it is a well-known fact that salted or cured, salted or cured uh meats, uh especially pork, when frozen, have the tendency to go rancid.
+
+[4:28] And so, like the higher the salt content, and I I think also curing salts might actually accelerate that even more. So it's probably good, but I can't remember, you're tugging on my memory strings. But salted meats definitely go rancid um faster in the freezer. So what happens is is that when you freeze, you're never really freezing the product down to the temperature at which there's no uh free water in there, right? Your freezers down at around minus 20 uh Celsius, which is about minus four Fahrenheit.
+
+[4:57] Uh and what happens is that as it starts freezing, you get very concentrated, salty uh areas, and those those areas are much more uh prone to um oxidative changes to the fats and for rancidity. So salted meats definitely are more apt to go rancid now. I would guess that uh, and I think there's some stuff that vacuum packing would somewhat pres uh prevent that because it would reduce the amount of oxygen present uh to cause those rancid flavors. I've also there's some anecdotal evidence that a pre-cook is gonna stabilize it somewhat, at least for color on the rethaw on freezing down. I don't know whether or not it will on the um on the rancidity part.
+
+[5:41] I mean, because it part of me thinks that you know uh cooking it regular cooking, obviously, will start the lipid oxidation, uh, and then therefore that will get vastly accelerated. That's like warmed over flavor kind of a situation. But a low temperature cook in a bath followed by freezing might be the way to go, but raw also. But really, I think importantly, get rid of the air. Um you know, don't freeze it for too long because it's gonna and also try to put it in the coldest part of your freezer because um the freeze thaw up down, up down is gonna also cause a lot of degradation over time.
+
+[6:13] So that's what I would that's what I say is my recommendation. Good job. You weren't even listening, you're looking at zappos. I'm listening. What are you looking at?
+
+[6:20] Look, what it's like so disconcerting. One hour or 40 minutes a day, you can't be off of your phone. Storing thoughts. I you know, what? What?
+
+[6:30] You gotta Dave get to the questions so we can get to other stuff. I need you to get through the questions. Well, stop looking at your phone! What does it matter to you? Because you're we're doing a radio show!
+
+[6:41] She's prepping for the no, she is not. No, she definitely is, yeah. I can tell. I'm looking at the web traffic. She's prepping.
+
+[6:47] She's not on Zappos. I don't even use Zappos. Every day from 12 to 1. She's like, why would I do that? I can now get most of those shoes Amazon Prime, and you know that I'm good at the uh, you know, returning them if they don't fit.
+
+[6:59] So why would I use Zappos anymore. Tangents. We're big Amazon fans here on the show. No, she's not a good thing. Oh, I have a good shirt.
+
+[7:04] Anyway, go. Do you want to talk about your shirt? No. Alright. Uh.
+
+[7:09] Oh, I didn't even see this one. Okay, so we're gonna have to do this one uh just you know, on the fly. Uh, what's this what's this question about, Nastasia? You don't know because you're looking at something else. You're looking at something else, you're not paying attention.
+
+[7:22] Or the one from uh Elden. No. Nope. Okay. Uh pay attention.
+
+[7:28] Hi, Dave, and it's how do you expect people like who aren't even in the building with us to pay attention if you can't even pay attention during this one section of your life. Dave, I put the questions together. Kind of, you don't even remember where they are. All right. Hi, Dave and Nastasia.
+
+[7:42] I recently got promoted to executive chef in an assisted living facility. This was an important question to me because the word question wasn't in the email. So I re-forwarded to myself two weeks ago, and I put question in the subject line so that I would find it. And that's why it's important to you. Yes.
+
+[7:57] Because of the case, otherwise it would have gone to the case. Not because of the contents. Not because of the contents of the question. Uh what is he? Executive Sioux Chef or something.
+
+[8:07] Executive chef, whoa, don't demote him. Yeah. Anyway. And like, you know, Matt's never read this shit. He's just lit stuff.
+
+[8:16] That's my real question. Wow. Thank you for your commitment. Uh still on her phone, people. Still staring at the phone.
+
+[8:26] I am listening. I am doing something so mindful. Listen, I want everyone out there to know something. There is no such thing as multitasking. What you can do in your life is do a bunch of brainless things.
+
+[8:38] You can do a bunch of idiot work, brainless stuff, like walking, chewing bubblegum, rubbing your stomach, right? Isn't we? Like sitting there staring into the distance. You can do all of that. You can multitask that.
+
+[8:50] Your brain is a single tasker. You can only really think about one thing. Everything else that you are multitasking on is subconscious or unconscious stuff, like breathing, walking, defecating, whatever you're doing. So don't ever look at me and tell me that you are multitasking when you're staring into your damn phone and that you're listening, because that is, as we say, physiologically not true. It is garbage.
+
+[9:16] What do you think, Matt? What percentage of the cooking issue issues listeners are defecating right now, do you think? 100%. As they listen to the show. And is that upsetting to you to think about?
+
+[9:27] No. No. No, why not? Like it's listen, half the time when you're on a conference call, I'm sure people are muting. Either Nastasia is, whenever Nastasia's on a conference call with you, she's either in the bathroom on mute, if you're lucky, or she is like dropping a package off somewhere, or in the middle of like the loudest place in the center of New York City.
+
+[9:51] They're the worst. You know what? And like everybody knows this, but like the more people are on a conference call, like the less anyone is listening. And so, like, everyone's on mute, everyone's zoned out, everyone's surfing the internet like Nastasia is right now, and pretending to be quote unquote multitasking. So, this is what will happen.
+
+[10:08] Hey, uh, so did you get the did you get that data? And then you hear this. Hey, hey, and then like it'll like their earphones they'll suddenly hear that you're addressing them, and they haven't heard any of the rest of the conversation. So then you'll wait a while, and someone else will go, I think they're on mute, they're trying to get off mute, and they're fumbling around with their phone because they're doing other stuff. They get back off of mute and they're like, What are we talking about?
+
+[10:33] Like, honestly, that's every conference call I've ever been on. Have you ever been on a good conference call? I cannot stand Amazon. What the hell? That is not related.
+
+[10:40] She's not listening. She's not listening! That is our life. That is our life. I would think I think she was multitasking.
+
+[10:48] Zero tasking. It's a new thing. Like, I want to call this new modern thing. It's called zero tasking. It's doing zero tasks well.
+
+[10:54] Also, whatever. No, say, speak your truth. The Amazon person, I'm writing scathing emails to them. Okay, okay. And he's only addressing the other two people on the chain.
+
+[11:05] Is now the time to write scathing emails to Amazon. Did you not exist a half an hour ago? No, that's a good thing. And will you not continue to exist? A half an hour ago.
+
+[11:12] We need our money or we don't exist. We need that money now, but this is Okay, go. This is the time. That is for the show. It's only for the show and not for Amazon.
+
+[11:23] Alright, question. Yes? No, I mean like, can we get the colour? Uh-oh. Okay.
+
+[11:29] I recently got promoted to executive chef. Executive chef. Go for you. At an assisted living facility in the central coast of California, in charge of providing food for 60 residents and about 20 employees three times a day for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, seven days a week. That's a lot.
+
+[11:44] Uh looking to upgrade kitchen to incorporate the use of uh sous vide circulator and steers all, of course, who was wondering what kind of sous vide vacuum sleeter you use, and if you uh and if there was a setup you would recommend for me to install. Love the show, and can't wait to hear back. Kevin A from Central California. Okay. Well, Kevin.
+
+[12:00] I used to cook for kids in Switzerland. Uh breakfast, lunch, and dinner for about a hundred kids, and I didn't use any CB cooking, so you don't really need it. Next question. What a jerk. He's a guy.
+
+[12:11] It might be the right answer, though. But it's absolutely not. First of all, like I know Nastasia. I know what she does to other people. The last time I put Nastasia in charge of cooking something, it was raw on the floor, and then the rest of the stuff she handed off to someone who incinerated all the meat.
+
+[12:27] Assisted living has specific problems in that the people who are there are immunocompromised. Okay? So it's like that Nastasia should not be cooking for children or immunogee. Definitely not. Definitely not.
+
+[12:39] Because Nastasia would be like, you know what? It was their time to go. No. There was a grease fire that broke up. Yeah, okay.
+
+[12:46] So let's talk about uh what to do. He's like Nastasi was like, I had no idea. Nastasi was like, I was 20 at the time and had really no idea what was going on. But I cooked for the kids anyway, and they didn't die. I made rat tattooy.
+
+[12:59] So what? First of all, rat tattooing for a hundred people. Rat tattoo-y for a hundred. Okay. So the pot was slightly larger than if you made it for 10 people.
+
+[13:10] Okay, how did you cook the chicken? I strung them all up. Where was this then? And then we had like a big outdoor spit. So you cooked once.
+
+[13:21] No. You were not. I've seen you try to hook up a rotisserie before. You were not cooking rotisserie chickens every day for a hundred kids. Not every day.
+
+[13:31] Once. You did it once. No, I did it three times. In your life. For the kids.
+
+[13:36] She's like, every meal in the channel. Every meal. Every meal, rotisserie chicken. See, why why should I answer questions? When you only denigrate anything I say.
+
+[13:47] I'm not denigrating you. First of all, you just said Fine, you know, my experience in Switzerland was crap. Really? You're right. Really?
+
+[13:53] I did a bad job. I should not have been cooking for children. Go ahead, Dave. Answer his question. You know what?
+
+[13:58] I'll. Oh, Nastasia. No, no, no, you're right. You're totally right. I'm not feeling sorry for myself.
+
+[14:04] You put me in my place. You should see her face, people. What place? Oh, I put you in your place? Yep.
+
+[14:10] Go ahead and go. Listen, go ahead and give it to you. Nastasia and I's place and give him the Nastasia and I there's no correct answer ever. Nastasia and I are in the exact same place, garbage can. 100% of the time.
+
+[14:22] Anyway. It's great that you're together though. Oh no, please. Couldn't we just be stored in separate garbage cans? Separate garbage cans.
+
+[14:29] Not your fate. I'm finding the photo. Okay, great. I'm sure, Nastasia, that it was the chicken delicious? No.
+
+[14:36] Oh. It was bad. It's bad. Matt believes you. So that's the thing.
+
+[14:41] Like Nastasia, like the fact of the matter is, I just I'm I I can't, I can't. Okay. Uh I would get if you're if you're cooking for uh 60 residents, okay? 60 residents and 20 employees, that's 80 people. Uh so you don't want to get a super small vacuum uh machine.
+
+[14:58] I would get like the kind of medium-size one. I don't have the number off the top of my head. I typically, I don't have a deal with them, but I typically use mini pack just because they're much easier for me to deal with than multivac and they have a real presence here as opposed to a lot of the European companies, uh like uh other than multivac and mini pack, which are both European companies, but I would get a real one with a vacuum pump. They cost a little more, but you're gonna be uh a lot happier. The thing about a getting not the smallest one, but this the next size up is that you can get it with two seal bars.
+
+[15:28] And the important thing about getting it with two seal bars is that the main problem with vacuum packaging is actually waiting for the machine to run through a cycle. So if you have two seal bars, right, if you need the full size, because you're gonna do something large, you can remove one of the seal bars and you get the entire chamber uh width. But if you need to uh package a lot of stuff, it's literally twice the speed. So if your vacuum cycle is running like 45 seconds, then you can uh then you can have the amount of time. And if Nastasia, you remember when we were bagging all those cookies?
+
+[15:58] Mm-hmm. How long did that take us? A very long time. Right. And we had two seal bars.
+
+[16:02] Nastasia. Just don't use it. That's the easiest way to do it. You know what the easiest way to do? Become a raw vegan.
+
+[16:08] Actually, it's not a lot of dehydrators for that. Um and then it says vacuum sealer. In terms of the circulators, I mean, all the circulators work, to be honest. Um what you should look for is a, I mean, really, they all work. I I like the ones if you're gonna work uh you know professionally, I prefer ones that are a little bit more robo.
+
+[16:29] I wouldn't go for the like the the cheapest, the cheapest one possible. I haven't had a lot of experience with the with the jewel when you're using like multiple units off of one phone, so I don't really know how that works if you're gonna be using multiple units, but I would definitely consider getting uh a couple of circulators, and uh obviously try to trick out your baths to work properly. So, like a lot of see the biggest problem I see with people with circulators is using the wrong kind of uh uh circulating bath, like they're putting stuff in metal, or they're not making sure that uh the product is off of the the bottom of the thing or not touching the sides or is fully submerged, or they're not putting enough uh separation in between the layers of product so that they're getting uh kind of incorrect cooking. So that's what I that's what I would say. Uh or as Nastasi would say, just don't use it, just don't use the technique, do something else.
+
+[17:17] Cook rotisserie chicken. So, do you have the picture of rotisserie chicken? I can't find it. Okay. I want this picture for the episode art.
+
+[17:25] Oh, I'll refined it then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh this is Elvin. So we had Kevin before, we have Elvin now. I'm curious if you have thoughts about unshaking a drink using clarification.
+
+[17:35] Unshaking in quotes. So uh Nick Bennett, who uh was with us at the party, which hopefully we have time to talk about. Uh what? Mm-hmm. Uh I was curious if you had any thoughts about unshaking a drink using clarification.
+
+[17:44] So Nick Bennett used to take shaken specs and turn them into stirred cocktails, and he would call them unshaking them. I recently played around with milk washing stuff like daiquaries and sidecars, but well, but if you're milkwashing it, you're gonna oh I see, like milk washing, but you would still shake it to get the foam. I don't quite understand. Um but it seems like a standard ish spec doesn't map perfectly into an old-fashioned template drink. I'm wondering if there's a standard three ingredients sour would usually work by itself in general.
+
+[18:09] I'll get around to playing with uh centrifuged citrus juices very soon. Thanks, Elvin. So uh whenever you're converting a um, whenever you're converting a uh shaken drink to a stirred drink, you're going to uh like radically decrease the sour component and also decrease the sweet. You're gonna have less overall sweet, and like so like I would start in in the range of uh like two of the spirit and like half of uh simple less even half or less of simple and a quarter or less of acid and start balancing because uh the reason is is it it's a warmer drink. Um so you're gonna decrease the the sugar, the acid's gonna pop harder in a stirred drink.
+
+[18:54] People aren't used to having that much acid, and uh also uh the alcohol content's gonna be high, the dilution is gonna be lower than in in a shaking drink. So it's gonna require more sugar than it would acid, but less of both sugar and acid than you would have in a shaking drink. Does that make sense? So so the the way the drink is made when you're shaking it, like the the entire amount of acid and sugar is gonna be far lower than in a shaken drink of the same spec. And also the acid is going to be shifted down relative to the um to the uh sugar just because the uh the uh because of the way the dilution works.
+
+[19:30] And at least that's been my experience. Um and then P.S. I've heard rumors that the Japanese translation of liquid intelligence is heavily redacted due to its perceived incompatibility with traditional Japanese bartending. Can you confirm or deny these allegations? I've never heard this before.
+
+[19:46] Have you heard this, Nastasia? No. I have not. She's definitely now this is this one's my fault. This one's on me.
+
+[19:52] This one's on me. This one's on me. This one's on me. The fact that Nastasia is looking through look, didn't I? Even if you don't believe me, even if you don't believe me, you can't do me the common courtesy.
+
+[20:05] This one's on me, though. This one's on you, but so I heard that you're Japanese, but was heavily redacted. Is this true? No, no. Maybe we're I don't know.
+
+[20:12] I need to find someone who speaks Japanese who will look I have to say that the liquid intelligence in Japanese is the most beautiful of all the liquid intelligences. The way it's put together, the way it's boxed, it like it looks amazing. It's crazy that they do. You have a copy. I have several copies.
+
+[20:29] Your permission to ask me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I think about the process with you and Maria. When you think about what uh like just like a rancid bastard I am during anything. Right, and then they just do this, and you're like they just do it.
+
+[20:45] Okay. Um yeah, I mean, I have them at the bar. They're really I mean, they look great. You know what? Also, people, the honest truth is they might have asked me stuff in my email, and would I have seen it?
+
+[21:01] No. I would not have seen it. I didn't see anything. He only answers questions from you, listeners. Wow.
+
+[21:07] If the if the publisher had asked me on Twitter, yeah, I would have seen it. That's true. Alright, so now uh you what we're gonna do classics in the field? No, we're gonna talk about LA and MoFAD. Then Classics in the Field?
+
+[21:20] Sure. Alright. I found the photo. Oh, that's it. And then and while we're doing that, I'll be looking at the photo, and you will be talking about the party we just did in in uh Los Angeles.
+
+[21:31] Alright. I see a team of people cooking. No, I did it all. They just wanted to take a photo of me. Uh-huh.
+
+[21:39] Alright, people. What I'm looking at is a bunch of chickens. When you said string it up, they are literally on a piece of string. Yes. Not on a spit.
+
+[21:51] On a string. Yep. So how did you turn them? Manually. What do you mean?
+
+[21:55] She's making a crank motion, but there is no crank. It is a piece of string. So how did you did you fist them? You fisted them. Yeah, so how often were you turning them?
+
+[22:06] Every 20 minutes. Every 20 minutes? Well, they they look like they would taste good. They tasted good. They look like they would taste too good.
+
+[22:13] Now let me see. How many kids? A hundred. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight chickens. No, that's not true.
+
+[22:21] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight chickens. No. Okay. I'm looking at the picture. I can see the chickens.
+
+[22:30] There are eight chickens. Oh, there's another string behind it that you can't see. Dave, just trust her. An entire generation of Swedish kids owe their existence in the Swiss. Swiss.
+
+[22:39] That's what I said. They were international. Anyway. But the point is, is that she's doing some loaves and fishes action. She's like, I love loaves.
+
+[22:46] You'll get you'll get one piece of chicken. They're like, so like a breast. No, no, no, no, no, no. A piece, not like a full piece. You get like like just one piece.
+
+[22:56] A delicious morsel. A morsel. Morsel. All right. You gotta send me that picture.
+
+[23:02] I know. Well, I can't send anything to you here. So I'm gonna go. Because there's no internet. I'm gonna hey.
+
+[23:07] Listen, I'll go on record. The chickens look fine. Thank you. They were great. I was a I was a happier, better cook back then.
+
+[23:14] That's the nicest thing you could come up with. How wait? Why would you have been a better cook back then? Because I didn't care as much. Then you're not a better cook.
+
+[23:22] No, no, I didn't care about what people thought. You know? And how does that make you a better cook? Because I wasn't, I don't know, because I was just like, I'm gonna just throw it all together and see what happens. And now I work with people that don't let you do that.
+
+[23:35] What do you mean? No one stops you from the way you cook at home. Who stops you from doing anything? People have expectations of me now that I work in food. Yeah, but how does that make you in other words?
+
+[23:46] What you're saying is you're less happy cooking. Yeah. Not that you're a better cook back then. You were more happy. Yeah, but isn't that cool?
+
+[23:56] Is it just because you're busier now? Yeah. You have more crap to do, like Amazon and whatnot. Okay. Okay.
+
+[24:02] So so put the phone down and let's talk about the party. Okay. Put the phone down. The phone is for closers. This episode is brought to you by Brooklyn Botanic Garden.
+
+[24:19] A stunning 52 acre garden in the heart of Brooklyn, featuring spectacular plant displays year round. Mark your calendars for Saturday, September 28th, when the Chili Pepper Festival returns to Brooklyn Botanic Garden. At this all day celebration of all things hot and spicy, indulge in sizzling bites from 40 food artisans. Enjoy spicy food demonstrations, foodie friendly tours and talks, activities for kids, and live performances by musicians and artists around the garden. Stay through the evening for a special concert that brings New Orleans to Brooklyn.
+
+[24:54] Festival goers can jam out to the legendary New Orleans musicians, John Papa Gross, Walter Wolfman Washington, and New Orleans Queen of Soul, Irma Thomas. Joining the fun will be Big Chief Monk Boudreau, bringing the traditions of the Mardi Gras Indians to the heart of Brooklyn. Learn more about Brooklyn Botanic Garden at BBG.org. Alright, so what did we do? We did a lot.
+
+[25:19] We uh we did a party, a big party. Where? At the Houdini Mansion. Who? And it was for Mofad.
+
+[25:26] Right. And a lot of people came, and everyone thought that Harold wasn't gonna dress up. Harold McGee. His Harold McGee famous writer of on food and cooking, like, you know, the godfather of uh science as it relates to uh the making of delicious food. Dave was like, we're not putting him in that $50 Amazon Zoltar costume.
+
+[25:50] And I left it on the table, knowing he's not gonna put it on. And then when we looked in the bedroom and first of all, first of all, people. Like Harold McGee not only dressed in Nastasia's like pantyhose. Yeah, the whole whole outfit was made from pantyhose and like I don't know, things that were recovered from like a used car dealership. But like, not only did Harold McGee put on the Zoltar outfit and the cardboard Zoltar.
+
+[26:20] Zoltar's a he's a fortune-telling character. You might recently have seen him on, I think, some sort of it's either progressive or Geico, I think. Geico or something commercial. Anyways, so he he not only put on the outfit and and like the clothes and the and the box, but Harold McGee, for those of you who don't know, Google a picture of him. Harold Harold McGee has a has a beard already.
+
+[26:42] He has like I don't know. He discovered this last night. It's not a it's not a, it's not his beard's not like a technically a goatee. It's not pointy, right? But it's kind of goatee-ish, right?
+
+[26:51] Right? And a mustache, right? Right. Costume comes with a Zoltar goatee. And beard.
+
+[27:01] Yeah, the goatee's bear. Yeah, and eyebrows. And eyebrows. McGee has eyebrows. McGee has eyebrows and the beard and the mustache, but he glued the No, he used my boob tape too.
+
+[27:15] What? What's boob tape? The things that keep your like your your dresses so that your boobs don't pop out. Okay. So like you they make special anti-side boob tape?
+
+[27:26] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So learn something new every day. So like he glues or boob tapes his Zoltar facial hair over his real facial hair. His only complaint was that there was like a little plastic strip that said Zoltar at the top of the costume.
+
+[27:46] And since he was tall, like he like it was right at his sight level and he couldn't see through the thing. He's like, Can you cut off the piece of plastic that says Zoltar? So we cut off the plastic, and he wore that dang thing all night. All nightwalk. He ate in it.
+
+[28:02] Somebody thought we hired him as like a like a Hollywood off-the-street type guy. No, they called him a human prop. And we're like, oh no. He's a godfather of food science. That's Harold McGee.
+
+[28:14] And at that party, also we met David Carp, who's like the preeminent fruit explorer, works at UC Riverside. And we could talk more about that in the make new apple heads. We had we went, uh, so who was cooking at the party? Your friend, you want to talk about your friends? And Fabulous.
+
+[28:30] You want to give a shout out to your friends? My friend Nina from Ziza. Catering. What kind of food is really beautiful. Fabulous and Jeremiah, which is uh, you know, from Contro Wildair, they came in and did the cooking.
+
+[28:41] So the funniest part to me was they they had from uh tacos 1980. 1984 or 86, 84, 84. Like one of those. So, like, you know, well-known taco joint uh in uh in LA that I think is opening a place here in New York. So they they had a you know one of those uh portable um uh al pastor units.
+
+[29:01] You guys know what I'm talking about? It's like kind of like a hero, like a gyro or hero or schwarma burner, but like if you check out my Instagram saved stories, all right. So what it is, so it's it's like this like like very high heat, almost it looks like a flower pot planner in the back, cranks, and then it's a vertical rotisserie spit. And so you layer the meat up on the on the spit, and then it rotates and cooks, and you slice off as it cooks, and you make sandwiches or tacos or whatever you're gonna make with it, right? So they get this this vertical al pastor machine, and uh so and they're cooking with it for a long time, and so at a certain point, you know, and Fabulous, by the way, had shattered one of his arms.
+
+[29:40] Like one of his arms is in like some sort of RoboCop, like some sort of bionic thing, because he was riding a scooter in DC and smashed into a wall and like broke his arm into a million pieces. So we were calling Fabulous the one-armed bandit the entire time he was there. So he's sitting there with one hand tending this spit, and Jeremiah comes up like right before the party, like right before the party started, right? And was like, I think I want to increase the heat a little bit. So the way that these spits work is there's a little square plate with a with a hole in it.
+
+[30:09] And that just slides along on this air on this like kind of like uh flat area that you can scrape off. And in front of that is uh like a sizzle, like like a like a gas-fired like griddle sizzle plate. And then over the top is like it is a big fat bar with holes drilled in it. And before you cook, I let me reiterate this before you cook, you set the distance to the fire by lifting the bar and figuring which one of the holes you're gonna put it in. It's like a belt loop, right, Nastasia?
+
+[30:35] It's like it works like a belt. So anyway, so like five minutes before the party starts, Jeremiah's like, yo, I'm gonna move this thing closer to the fire. So he lifts the bar, and immediately, I think he doesn't realize that the bottom piece that is not firmly attached, immediately the thing goes, shoop, and the meat starts like flying out of the thing. He catches the hot meat, right? And then he's like, help, help, help.
+
+[31:00] And so what happens is Fabulous runs over and he's like, I need someone with two hands. And so like I run over and they had they had put like 18 million pounds of like spice mix on the outside of this meat, and the fat had started oozing out, so it became like spice fat. And I'm like, I know I'm wearing all black, but still I'm not gonna get this all like all over me, right? So I have to strip down to my t-shirt. And for those of you that know me, like I'm wearing like 85 layers of clothing, even though it's a billion degrees, right, Sas?
+
+[31:31] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I like stripping down, and then we're trying to muscle this meat back in, right? And of course, what is Nastasi doing? Filming for posterity instead of helping.
+
+[31:40] Fair, there was enough people around the machine. Didn't need to be any more people around the machine. So I'm not knocking you here, Stas. Right. So then so we finally get it back back in, and we're like, oh my God.
+
+[31:51] And then Nastasi shows me the video, and it's a video. You have to go on to her stories. You have to make it more permanent. It's a permanent story. All right.
+
+[31:58] So you look at it, you wait for it, and then at a certain point, Nastasi, I don't know how she knew this was happening. She pans back, and there's McGee in the Zoltar outfit, just watching, having a calm drink. And it it basically sums up the entire entire McGillakuddy right there. Oh, okay. And shout out to Dan the Automator.
+
+[32:16] Dan the Automator, shout out to uh who spun during the thing. Shout out to Barry, who is Mark Ronson's guy. Engineer, who showed up, and we thought we would have to do our own playlist before and after. He's like, well, we can just. I think you can say that.
+
+[32:28] I didn't say anything. Okay, I take it back. He didn't say anything. So then uh a big shout out to Prono Ricard. Yeah.
+
+[32:34] And a big shout out to the LA Times. Yeah. So Perna Ricard was the prime uh payer for the party, and we went out there and then we did a shoot video shoot with the LA Times at the farmers market. So the Santa Monica Farmers Market is amazing. The Wednesday Santa Monica Farmers Market is amazing.
+
+[32:49] And actually we saw some uh some cooking issues people out there, so I was really psyched about that. But the fruit was nuts. So we bought uh Kinno, which is out of season now, but what's the name of the of the farm we used? Do you remember? Yeah.
+
+[33:02] So there's this one farm in uh in SoCal that like has a very weird microclimate, so they can do weird things, they do weird things to citrus. So they had kinno, which is this awesome, I can't remember whether it's a tangerine or mandarin or what. I think it was a tangerine. But they had this awesome fruit that way past when anyone else would have it. So Nastasia Mud Creek Ranch.
+
+[33:22] Mud Creek Ranch. So Nastasi and I, and they also are the ones that had the Mandarin quads the last time we were there, that they were just finished. Those mandarin quads were some of the best citrus I've ever had. So we were like the idea of this party was sustainability, right? So we were gonna make a cordial, because a cordial takes a fresh fruit and makes it last forever, uses a lot of the peel, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[33:39] So these kinos actually have delicious peels. So we were able to use the twist, the peel in the cordial, and the clarified juice and last last forever. But here's the interesting part. So most many mandarins, by the way, David Carp, who we met also came to the party, but we met him at the farmer's market, says that anyone who doesn't live where they grow mandarins has no idea what a mandarin is supposed to taste like because mandarins are waxed, and every every waxed mandarin uh starts going into anaerobic uh respiration and creates kind of off and fermenty flavors. So what 99% of us think is normal flavor in let's say a clementine or whatever we're buying, whatever mandarins we're buying at the supermarket, he's like, that's like the difference between like making a guacamole fresh with a delicious fresh avocado and buying those packaged, because you don't like packaged guacamole, right?
+
+[34:28] You you at least have that standard. So like um, so anyway, so he says none of us really know what a good mandarin tastes like, and he says that mandarins are the no most noble of citrus. But the problem with them is is that if you are converting them into juice, you need to drink the juice right away, because almost all of them, to a greater or lesser degree, um, exhibit what's called delayed bitterness. So there's a reaction which is I believe partially enzymatically um uh what's the word, catalyzed, that will take a delicious juice and make it go bitter over time, therefore unusable as a drink or a cocktail. There are some studies currently out on using wine finding agents to knock the bitterness out, and apparently agar and gelatin uh can do it.
+
+[35:07] But my hope was that by turning this delicious thing into a cordial, the heat from cordializing as well as the clarification would cause it to not go bitter and ding ding, it does. So if you have some fancy uh citrus and you want to use it in a cocktail, consider making a cordial. It will not go bitter if you clarify and do just like the quick heat cordial. It's possible that just clarifying it will be enough, but we didn't run that test because we wanted it to taste like a cordial. Uh, and so uh that's what we did.
+
+[35:35] We also picked up uh $80 worth of Jimmy Nardello, Jimmy Nardello peppers for Fabulous and Jeremiah to cook with, and they didn't end up cooking with them. Now these peppers are in the arc of taste, these peppers are incredibly delicious. Nastasia hasn't had it yet, right? They're what they're what's called a frying peppa. They're like an Italian frying peppa, right?
+
+[35:55] So they don't have a lot of seeds, they have a lot more seeds than a normal full eating pepper like a shoshito or a padron, which they also had a whole we bought a whole bunch of those when we're out there as well. So I bring these two giant bags of Nardellos back home with me on the airplane because I wasn't gonna let them go to waste. By the way, for those of you that have never worked at a big event, what ends up happening is no matter how good the products are, at the end of the night, you're so tired and you're so spent, and you need to get out of the place, and everyone's trying to leave, so that no matter how good the product is, what happens to it, Nastasia? It gets dumped. It gets dumped, right?
+
+[36:27] There's nothing that takes care of a hangover like pushing a dumpster, right, Dave? Oh my god. So Nastasi's like, we had We stayed up until three or four. We spent uh like a lot of money like to throw the party, but still we were doing it on a heavy budget. So Nastasia is like, Dave, you need to get up at 6 30.
+
+[36:45] So we go to bed at like four, we get up at 6 30. I'm like, Dave, get ready. Yeah, so they like we drive over there and pushed a dumpster. Three yard dumpster. It was sucked.
+
+[36:57] Anyway. Oh, our car didn't break down this time though. Nastasia uh gave Nastasia a lot of so we bought last time we were in LA, we rented a Peace Bus. Well, not really, it was like a Vanagon, right? It died.
+
+[37:09] We talked about this on the air. It died dead. No alternator. Dead, dead, dead. So we finally get it back to the house after we jumped it three times from Austin Hennelly's uh who helped us this time at the party, his like like miniature new fiat, and then uh they came and take it and they gave us a credit for $120 for the Peace Bus.
+
+[37:28] And so with this credit, Nastasia rents for two days. Not three days. Oh, a Chrysler from 85. Yeah, yeah. Uh okay.
+
+[37:40] I'll just leave it at that. For those of you that think that the Chrysler Baron, and then she buys me this like beat fake top hat, and because I forgot my real hat, I have to go, I burn and I don't use lotion, right? I run around like douches. You're wearing a top hat. We made everyone look good.
+
+[37:59] Like, so like like we would like people would roll up on us, which was really easy because like to the floor, this Chrysler did about five miles an hour. Like, this is not your like B-52's got me a Chrysler. It seems about 20. Got me a Chrysler, it's as small as an otter, right? Not as big as a whale.
+
+[38:19] And it did feel like it was sailing at the speed it was going, and it was like tiny. Anyways, people would roll up all us and be like, nice. And then go past. Am I right, Stas? Yes.
+
+[38:32] Alright. So listen, they're gonna kick us off the air. Next week, we'll do uh the the classic in the field for today was going to be Drina Dodson's Apple Head Dolls. I have the book with me, but uh, and I will try to convince Nastasia for next week. We can also talk more about the party because there's more to talk about.
+
+[38:51] Um I'm gonna and also more to talk about about apples, right? Uh but yeah, I'm gonna try to convince the doll book too. I'm gonna try to convince Nastasia to allow me to post on Instagram the entire applehead dolls for pleasure and profit. I'm also uh Applehead dolls as they are made now are not edible because they're heavily salted. But Nastasia and I are gonna come up with a procedure that we'll call it the Nastasia method, whereby we can make apple head dolls that are in fact edible.
+
+[39:22] Okay. Alright. So that that's my goal. Maybe we'll have it by next week. Nastasia and I are gonna have the Nastasia method of Appleheads, and then I'm going to very artfully place Nastasia's head into Drina Dotson's head position on this book, and then possibly No, I don't want that.
+
+[39:37] Why not? Because of your to be her. You can't be her. You don't live in Anaheim. Anyway.
+
+[39:45] Oh. Or pass the. Best bar in the world, Star Wars bar at Disneyland. Oh, yeah. Oh, she didn't take me.
+
+[39:52] You would not. You would never have gone with us. Of course I would have gone with us. No, you wouldn't. Why?
+
+[39:57] You would never have gone with us. Why would I not have gone? If I said, hey Dave, come to LA a day early, we're all going to Disney. Yeah. But if we had a day in the middle and you said let's go to Disneyland.
+
+[40:06] I've done it. What? You didn't know what you'd say. Isn't there some work we could be doing or I should be with my family? I know that I know because I've gotten feedback that people think I'm an overly angry individual on this radio program towards Nastasia.
+
+[40:19] I'll just have you know that she spends her whole life pushing my buttons so that she can get me to flare up because that's what she enjoys doing. But I am not a monster, I don't think. Alright, now uh no, I have to talk about Eng Sue. Oh. So uh on the way home, uh well I'll I'll say this.
+
+[40:37] So years ago, when I first started getting into, you know, a couple years after I've been working with Wiley Dufrein, I started working for, not, you know, not for money, but working with him. Uh I started working at the French Culinary Institute as their director of culinary technology. And one of the best parts of the job, or the best part of the job really, was um this the intern program. So students would come in and uh they would, you know, after class, they would, you know, work with me. And originally the you know, one of our original interns, her Mindy, Mindy Lavoff, who you know, we're still obviously good friends with, she became the original leader of the interns, and then eventually Nastasia came in and became the you know other leader of the interns.
+
+[41:17] So that's how Nastasia and I started working together. Um so one of the every once in a while we would just have uh an amazing, an amazing group of uh students because they would be always they they would be there for their you know nine months, I guess it was, right? Six, nine months, whatever the program was. They would be there and then they would move on. Uh and so we had this amazing group, and in that group were people like uh Peter Schweigert, who last time I checked was the uh GM and Spirits person at Marvel Bar, worked at a Linea for a long time, uh, had you know had a lot of rotovap knowledge.
+
+[41:50] Nick Wong, you know, who's like you know one of the best of the best, who's now the chef at UB Preserve in Houston. Um Angela Angela Gubots, who's uh at Goldenrod Pastries and doing like amazing stuff at Goldenrod Pastries. Um, you know, all fan fantastic people. Um but then also was uh Eng Su. And Eng Su was an amazing guy.
+
+[42:13] He's from Singapore. And he was, I actually probably learned as much from him when he was an intern as as he learned from me. So he was, I remember a couple of weeks ago I talked about bat nuts here, bat nut chestnuts. He was the one who introduced me, uh introduced me to those. He also was one of the rare people who could rare people who could go toe-to-toe with me with saying kind of absurd, ridiculous things.
+
+[42:39] So if you've ever hung out with me in the real life, like I will have a tendency to just say completely off-the-wall things. And Eng Su was one of those, one of those people who could totally uh keep keep up toe-to-toe with me on that. He was uh very interested in all of the different cultural inputs that went into making Singapore what it was. It was kind of funny because he was already an amazing cook. He came to the FCI to do uh pastry, uh, in fact.
+
+[43:05] Uh and then, you know, a after he uh left, uh he did some work uh in Israel and um for a couple of years, and then several years ago opened up his own restaurant in Singapore called Coconut Club, and where he um he was doing uh Nasilamak, which is the coconut rice with all of the uh the omele dish, coconut rice all around. And he did a lot of uh, he was made a big kerfuffle because he was charging, he was basically a street food, and he was charging, I don't know, some like exorbitant amount, like six or eight or ten times what it would normally cost on the street to serve it at at his restaurant. And he was doing it, and he was like, no, crap on you. I want to pay respect to this dish. And so he was having, you know, he was sourcing special coconuts from one specific place, having his own coconut milk uh made, was trying to build a factory to do that.
+
+[43:57] He was paying his workers a lot more than anyone else was paying them because you know, at his core, he was uh not just a great cook, not just extremely funny. And I really, for all of you who never been in a kitchen with him, you're missing out. Like there are there are, you know, people that you meet in your life who make the kitchen just a much more fun place to be. Uh, you know, who can handle pressure, who can handle being a perfectionist, who can handle uh, you know, tense situations, but just make the kitchen, even when that's going on, just an incredibly fun place to be. Uh Aang Su is one of those people.
+
+[44:37] And he, you know, we lost him last week. He was only 40 years old. Uh, cookie issues. This program is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[44:59] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[45:21] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRM family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Brooklyn Botanic Garden, a stunning 52 acre garden in the heart of Brooklyn, featuring spectacular plant displays and inspiring public programs year round. Learn more at BBG.org. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported podcast network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick Brooklyn. This year, we're celebrating 10 years of food radio.
+
+[0:28] For the past decade, we've been taking you behind the scenes of farms, restaurants, breweries, school cafeterias, and more. It's been 10 years, and we're just getting started more. Find us at Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from, you know, I don't know.
+
+[0:53] I really don't know anymore. I really don't. Till about one o'clock from Reverse Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not here yet because she has been detained by the L train. So, um Matthew, uh, how you doing?
+
+[1:07] The uh yeah, good. I just got trolled by the chat. It started auto-playing our own feed. We were gonna be looped for eternity. Well, so I'm sure Matthew will edit this out of like whatever happens in the internet in the future.
+
+[1:19] But but, yeah, someone or somehow we had looped our uh the what what what do we call that the commercial before the thing? Uh pre-roll. Yeah, the pre-roll got looped into some sort of like I kinda liked it. I think you should go full Frera Jaca on that. Uh you know, maybe I will.
+
+[1:37] I can stack them in the in the post. We get a little bit like three minutes of just 12 copies of that. Yeah, and like, you know, the what what what's the actual line? Do you remember something and more? Uh and then it looped in, and you had it like right at the correct.
+
+[1:50] No, it was it was the timing was good. It was sick, man. Yeah. Everybody likes short bursts of rounds, right? You know what I mean?
+
+[1:59] Like, like I can tolerate about 25 seconds of of Frera Jacques once it's all in, right? Oh man, wait, are we gonna make you a a round version of uh Classics in the Field theme? Oh my god. Well, no, because Classics in the Field is such a short thing. How can you can't you need at least I mean, we need a couple more lines.
+
+[2:17] You need to flesh out the lyrics here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, for those of you that know, like, whenever we come up with a song, it's always just like the one line and that's it. Yeah.
+
+[2:26] Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, since speaking of songs, since we're waiting for Nastasi to show up before we begin with actual cooking issues. Oh, and if you have a uh cooking issue, you can call in your questions to 718418. Wait, wait.
+
+[2:42] Um, yes, that is right. 7184972128. And in fact, someone knows the number because I'm talking to her. All right. Well, let's take the call.
+
+[2:52] I mean, I was gonna talk about my lack of understanding of Neil Diamond's crackling crackling rosy song, which I've listened to my whole life and just was listening to on the way over, and I was like, the lyrics were kind of making me mad. Uh well, we can get back into that afternoon. All right, let's do this. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going?
+
+[3:12] Going on. Josh from North Hair. Hey, how are you doing? Good, good. Um I'm recently getting big into uh charcoal grilling, and I feel like I remember you talking about the pros and cons of like hardwood charcoal versus lump a few weeks ago, and I was wondering if you could go into some more detail.
+
+[3:27] All right, I will. Um so we had uh I don't know how long ago that was, Matthew, I'm not sure. But we had uh Meathead uh Meathead Goldwyn on, right? And Meathead is uh believer in uh in kind of compressed kind of briquette style uh charcoal, right? And he's like, it was it's more uh what's the word he he uses?
+
+[3:52] He says it's more uh uniform, which I guess is true. Uh anyway, he like and he says he you know what's in it as opposed to the wood that's made in in hardware charcoal. So then uh after I we had that conversation on the on the air, I went and bought a sack of, you know, not the vile stuff that's impregnated with garbage, but like, you know, the uh standard briquettes. I believe I purchased Kingsford, and I tried using them, and I have to say I hate them. Uh I just don't like them.
+
+[4:25] Uh you know, and this is not a scientific me talking. It's just I hated using them. Uh I yeah, uh like the the kind of so I I use uh hardwood uh charcoal. The the brand that I use, I even I don't even remember the name. It's there's only a couple of brands that that you that are available on the East Coast.
+
+[4:48] I use the one in the big red paper sack. And uh I can see the chunks of wood, and uh I don't care that it's not always the same. I just I I don't care. I just prefer to use it. Like the stuff, the way it stacks out in my in my chimney, the way it lights up, the way that I understand it, I just like it better.
+
+[5:08] The way it feels, the whole thing about it I enjoy more. Now I've also never uh I've never purchased uh you know, fancy binshotons. So uh Nastasia's here by the hold on second, she's gonna pass right by my whole second. Oh, she's gonna go behind me. What's up?
+
+[5:23] Hey Nastasia. Uh so we were uh yeah, yeah, we'll talk about the nasty train. We're talking about charcoal right now. So uh Jeremiah Stone and Fabulous, when we were working in um in uh LA, Jeremiah was like, Well, we're gonna need to use the grill, so uh, we're gonna get some sort of uh bintoton. Remember that?
+
+[5:41] We're like, Jeremiah crash suck crap on you. I don't like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I think I was, we were just trolling and making fun of them. I think there is a place for like super like fancy kind of uh benton and bintroton like.
+
+[5:54] So for instance, uh Andy Ricker, uh a friend of the show, uh, you know, well known chef, has a line of ties of Thai-made binsoton style charcoal, which is much cheaper than binsoton. So the the advan Nastasia, people can hear when you do that, you know. Yeah, yeah, we'll we'll talk about the fact that they don't trust us to talk anymore. But that's fine. So, like uh, I think that stuff has a that's super expensive stuff, also has a place in that um if you're grilling inside and you need something that's relatively smoke free, the binchoton is good.
+
+[6:25] Maybe it burns at a higher temperature, but the way that I cook now with charcoal is uh in general just like lots of lots of heat. So Meadhead Goldwyn may have a point when with briquettes, because he's setting up these long snakes and he's doing these like long cooks at low temperatures, and he's trying to regulate heat over hours with briquettes, and it's just like that's just not the game I like to play. I just dumped out, I don't enjoy playing that game. So uh take everything I say with that grain of salt. Like I like uh I like what I like, not necessarily from a scientific standpoint.
+
+[6:59] Matthew, is this making sense? It is, in fact, making sense. Uh Devin on the chat wedding. He well, you didn't like the king's word. Um then real quick, uh, what has been your experience with carrying a spinzall on domestic flights?
+
+[7:14] Oh, it's fine. So uh get a if you if get a similar to uh 511 tactical rush 24 bag, similar. You don't have to buy that one. That bag is rather heavy, but a spinzall just fits. My only gripe with the 5'11 is that uh it doesn't fully clamshell, so it's kind of hard to shimmy to shimmy, shimmy, shimmy the spinzall into it.
+
+[7:38] Um but you can fit it into that, and then you can pad it with like clothes and all your other paraphernalia. And a 5'11 tactical with a spin's all in it exactly fits. You have to kind of like push it, but it exactly fits into every overhead bin that I've ever uh tried to work with. The problem is you don't want to ever put it into a roly. Because if you put it into a roly and you show up, unless you're group one, your roly is gonna be like has a good chance of getting checked, and a spin's all in checked luggage when it doesn't have a lot of padding is going to get cracked.
+
+[8:13] I just I happen to meet. Yeah, I was carrying one once and I put it in a roley, and the you know, the flight person was like, You're gonna have to check that. I was like, you don't understand, I can't check this. Like my whole business is this is when we were just in prototype. So it's like literally my business is here.
+
+[8:29] This is my whole business. You're asking me to check my entire business. And she was like, Yeah, I don't care about you. And so she uh she took the thing and checked, and sure enough, broken. Um so I would always backpack it, and it fits.
+
+[8:44] Um you know, if you can literally you can just put it into any sort of sack and have it as your carry-on and and it and it will fit, but it doesn't fit with a lot of extra packing, so it's it's about you placing it in the overhead uh on your own. But I've done it many times, even internationally. Alright, awesome. Thanks. Cool.
+
+[9:02] Uh what were you saying, Matthew? Um you caught me eating this Tate's cookie that I found in the green room. Uh, what am I doing? Devin, the dude says something, and I can't find it. He said that uh you didn't even like the Kingsfords, and he says he bought some Embers brand briquettes at eight at Home Depot recently since they were cheap.
+
+[9:23] Internet says they might be seconds quality Royal Oak briquettes. He does not recommend, they were way ashier than the Kingsford, and tons of smoke during lighting. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Look, a lot of things, look, people who are interested, I'm sure he's changed his uh, I'm gonna give you another example. So years and years ago, Alton Brown, great, you know, great influence in the food world, Alton Brown, uh Ariel Johnson is, you know, friend of the show, is his uh first science officer now on the program.
+
+[9:52] So all love to Alton Brown. Years ago, Alton Brown tried to tell not just me, but the entire world that the best way to cook bacon is in the oven. And that's just not true. I mean, like that's just that's just not true. And this is exactly why that's not true.
+
+[10:12] He said, uh, when you cook bacon in the oven, it cooks evenly. Do you understand what I'm saying, people? He said it's better because when you put bacon in the oven, it cooks evenly. Now I ask you, I ask you, whenever you are at a restaurant, now on a burger, fine, but when you were eating bacon, when you were eating bacon, as bacon, not on a sandwich, whatever. Would you rather have that perfectly flat, board-stiff, one-done-ness piece of bacon that is just kind of there as a stick, and you pick it up and it's typically dry and whatever.
+
+[10:52] Or would you rather have a traditional pan fried piece of bacon that has some parts of it more done, some parts of it less done, a little bit of that soft yielding bubble where the fat came up off the pan and didn't cook very much, and another part that's a little crispy because it hit the pan more. Would you rather have that? And the answer is nostalgic. It's not nostalgic, it's a taste thing. I like, I like variation in my bacon.
+
+[11:17] So the very fact that a bacon piece of bacon cooks more evenly in an oven might be great if you're doing bacon for burgers. However, it is not make the best eating bacon, in my opinion. And so, like this idea of evenness as being the be all and end all of what we're shooting for, not really true, I think. I think what what you're searching for in the kitchen is knowledge and repeatability and consistency, time to time and batch to batch, not necessarily a hundred percent Pablum consistency of texture and look across the individual things that you're eating on the plate at one particular time. Is this making sense?
+
+[12:01] Yes, also nice use of the word Pablum. Oh, yeah. It's a good one. We gotta pull that out more. I don't know what that is.
+
+[12:06] It's gross, it's just like like no taste, like it's like what a baby first eats, like Pablum. You know what I mean? It's just like uh someone says, uh, how was the food? Uh all taste is mush, all tasting the same pablum. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:22] Can we market a product as Pablum? Uh, I don't know. I think there might be, I think there might already be a baby's biscuit, like a you need a style biscuit. By the way, you need a biscuit. Sick name for a biscuit.
+
+[12:33] And P.S. they taste good. I don't like to let them like disintegrate in my mouth like a teething baby does. But you need a biscuit is not a bad prop product and a fantastic name. Fantastic name.
+
+[12:48] Alright. So, uh on to what you were going to talk about, Nastasia. Matthew no longer trusts us not to spit into his microphone, and so we have these metal spit guards. Oh, that's what they are? It's not you two.
+
+[13:01] Won't say who it is. Won't say who it is. But we're narrow we've narrowed it down to 33 hosts. Um no, I would I would have Nastasia teach a class on mic technique. Oh, you would?
+
+[13:14] Yeah. I had a lean, lean back. As far as away from the microphone as you can be while still being in the same room. Yeah, we gotta get. I think uh I think Fat Joe lives in the neighborhood, maybe, or used to.
+
+[13:24] Now he's in the Bronx. Yeah, he's in the Bronx, I think. Get him to come sing lean back, so for Nastasia's microphone technique. Yo, where's my my uh okay? Here we go.
+
+[13:32] Uh so uh we don't have any questions, people. Sad. Sad. We're dumb, though. We're real dumb.
+
+[13:40] We're stupid. Uh, but the lack of questions, you know, we get sad. We have feelings, right, Nastasia? Yeah. Not really.
+
+[13:47] Oh, I know what we were gonna talk about real quick. Nastasia hates me talking about Neil Diamond, so maybe I won't. But I don't understand. I think because there's one song that everyone thinks, like you have your song, I have my song, that should be erased from the musical dictionary forever and everything. You want to say what it is?
+
+[14:05] For me. What is your song? Uh I don't I have uh I don't know. Like every time I I know my wife's song. What is it?
+
+[14:11] Uh Walking on Sunshine. She hits that song. Oh, yeah, I know she hates that song. She hates that song. I have another person I know that will leave the room if pulling muscles from a shell comes out.
+
+[14:14] Oh wow. What about you, Matt? I'm gonna double down on Sweet Caroline. I just can't deal. Especially when a crowd is chanting to it.
+
+[14:27] I just do not want it. No, no, no, no. Are you guys both the I hate things that people like people? No, that just reminds me of St. Patrick's Day.
+
+[14:35] Weddings that are boring. Red Sox games. Okay, okay, okay. It's not a bad song. Please don't jump on me.
+
+[14:42] But if it was punishable with a short jail sentence, I would say that you should punish the playing of Brown Eyed Girl at Weddings. Really? Oh my god. This brown eye girl. You can't dance to that song.
+
+[15:00] Yeah, but you remember when I like to dance at weddings? Oh, also tell them how we were banned from dancing. Oh my god. Let me get it. So, like, first of all, someone please explain to me a non-horrible meaning behind Cracklin Rose.
+
+[15:15] Listen, Cracklin Rose is a store-bought woman, but you got me. Wait, wait, you like a guitar? Like a guitar humming. Hang on to me. Hang on to me.
+
+[15:28] Our song keeps going on. So what he's saying is, because it it at a different point in the song is like having a time. Listen to this lyric. Having a time with a poor man's lady. What the is that?
+
+[15:42] And then saying, hey, you're a store-bought woman, i.e., I'm putting you down. Hang on to me, because I'm going somewhere. I st I like having a good time. You keep me humming, but really I'm the one in charge. Hang on to me.
+
+[15:56] Our song's going on. Unpleasant. And I love Neil Diamond. Whatever song I like. Traveling Salesman.
+
+[16:05] Um Brother Loves Traveling Salvation Show. Love it. Love it. Traveling Salvation Show. Grab the old ladies.
+
+[16:15] What? That shit's. Oh, sorry. That stuff's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:18] Grab the old ladies. Grab the old ladies. What are you gonna do with them? Pack up the babies. Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies.
+
+[16:25] Everyone knows. Wait, don't you? What? Oh, so we went to a place. I'm not gonna name it.
+
+[16:31] I'm not gonna name it because I don't name places. Or any of that stuff. Okay. I won't even give like the normal hints that normally. We threw a party for a band.
+
+[16:43] It was fun. We had a fun time, as Wesley Willis would say. And we're there, and so Nastasia and I, first of all, here's something people don't don't like. Don't get me started. Seriously.
+
+[16:57] Like, seriously. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like 48, sure, right? And you know, you said you're in a previous episode, you said your funk motor is not broken. It's not broken.
+
+[17:07] It takes longer to start. Right? It's like an old crank, it's like an old crank car from the 20s. We were at a concert before, and Dave was the only one headbanging. Okay, so check this out.
+
+[17:20] We're at this place, uh, we're at this place called Elsewhere in Brooklyn, and we're now on the roof. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're on the roof. And so Nastasia, in typical Nastasia form, is like, crap on this. We're we're going up front.
+
+[17:31] Now, me, as a woman, you know, as a woman, no one's gonna like punch her. They give her bad looks, but no one's gonna punch her. But she gets mad at me for not like zooming in behind her while she is like throwing elbow checks to all the people who have been there waiting, right? Prepping them to be really mad with you. Oh yeah.
+
+[17:44] Ding ding ding. So anyway, so finally I I'm like, mmm, sorry. I literally had to say, see that crazy person that just plowed through you? I have to follow her. Oh, that's what you're doing.
+
+[18:00] And yeah, yeah, yeah. And the guy was like, okay. And so like, wait a minute, so we end up on there's these benches surrounding the main, you know, area, and they have these this wire like wire fence, right? But not like like an ape like a cable fence that has a lot of bounce to it. So we realize that we can stand on this like narrow bench, but if we loop our hands over the fence, we can s seriously headbang.
+
+[18:26] And we did. And we did, and no one else did. No one else. It's also, yeah, whatever. It was a headbanging song.
+
+[18:34] It was a headbanging song. I stopped headbanging in the night. It's one of those songs that's like, you know, ba la da la la la la la juga junk junk junk. You know, and during the jugger junks, right? We went for it.
+
+[18:46] We went for it. Because I know, I know from experience that when you go full jugger junk junk, you want someone in the audience to go for it. You were doing a service. Yes! You're in the hospitality industry.
+
+[18:59] Oh yes! Oh yeah. It's part of the there it people. This is where Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink is wrong. Yeah.
+
+[19:07] There is, and even though Wyatt Senack, we met Wyatt Snack, or I've met him a couple times, but uh we he was at the Mofad Gala. Did we talk about this on the air? Yeah. Yeah, and so Wyatt Snack, famous comedian, does not believe that there is a social contract between the viewer and the comedian. That is all on the comedian to do a good job and make the make the guests laugh, right?
+
+[19:29] Or smile or whatever. I disagree. I think there's always a sort of contract. If you want the best performance from a band, let 'em know that you like it. Right?
+
+[19:38] Yeah, we were the only ones though. We were the only ones. Uh well speaking of people letting you know they like it, you have a caller on the air. Oh, sweet. We hope they like it.
+
+[19:46] Caller on the air. Hi, how's it going? Going well. Awesome. Um calling in from uh southern Germany, actually.
+
+[19:57] Uh and I uh it's just about uh Vasen or Oktoberfest season. Ein Hofbeih house, Einstein. In Merci and what? No, I like I'm not I'm actually not so I'm not uh in Munich, I'm in southwest of Germany near Stuttgart. Right on.
+
+[20:18] Yeah. So actually for us it's the it's the Vasen. It'll be the sort of festival that they do here. Yeah. I don't know if you're modern.
+
+[20:26] I've never been to Stasia's bin and has a derndle. It's great. Nastasia owns a derndal, and if you guys are very nice to her, maybe she'll post a picture of herself in the derndal. I only wear um what's it called? Under it.
+
+[20:37] She wears long johns with reindeer on it under the derndal. Anyway, go ahead. Well, actually I was uh I was told to buy mine today, my later hose, and then there's there's no way I'm gonna do that. But oh laterhosen is cool. Well, maybe, but I don't really uh I don't really feel like wearing leather on anyway, no uh but that's also an Oktoberfest thing and anyway.
+
+[21:02] No, uh so my problem that I was having was I wanted to try and cook something that's like a little snack or something that we could kind of eat. And so I bought some pork belly and it has the bones in, the ribs. And try as I might, I couldn't find anything for everything. You know, as you search, you kind of go through and it says like, oh yeah, do pork belly, do this, or oh, you're gonna do ribs, do that. And I couldn't find anything that really gave me a clear answer on a fun way to cook pork belly with the ribs.
+
+[21:28] And I was wondering if you kind of like lean me towards one direction or another. It's got the the ribs or the cartilage pieces, or both. Both. So it's extending into the so you have the whole that whole plate section. It's almost like it's almost like the whole side flitch up to how how long up into the into the ribs is it.
+
+[21:52] Uh well, probably not that very far. I wouldn't be able to tell right now. I have it at home instead of on me. Um but I wouldn't go super super far. I don't think it's crazy big.
+
+[22:03] Right. I mean crazy long into it. So I I mean, I would just mean I my favorite pork bellies are like you know, Wiley's old pork belly at WD50, but you know, it takes that takes a long time. So he used to he would first cure it with uh he would he would use a little bit of uh nitrites on it, and then he would uh he would like salt, salt, I think salt and sugar in in vac, press that down, let that go for a couple of days and cure, then he would low temp it for 72 hours, then he would crisp the skin up. And you could do the same even with the still got the skin on, right?
+
+[22:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You could do that, that's delicious, that's firmer, and then you could slice it. If you if there's a little area of the bone you could french out, you then it could have little handles on it that people could pick up, right? Which might be fun.
+
+[22:53] Because that way of cooking the pork belly leaves it uh moist and uh tender, but but still liftable, i.e. like not completely gelatinous, right? Like another thing is like you know, bones be damned, ain't nothing better than like uh, you know, tungpo style, like braised, like Chinese style braised pork, uh, you know, if you want to do it in kind of in kind of that in that in that fashion, right? Uh another thing, like if you're gonna be in in Germany, you could almost do like uh like a Schweinhox version where you do like a like you do a relatively long, you salt it and stuff, do like a long braise on it and then deep, you know, cut it into pieces that again with the little handle, deep fry those suckers and serve them Schweinhox style because everybody likes that. Are you familiar with the American uh invention of the Midwest called pig wings?
+
+[23:50] No, no, I'm not. Pig wings are like mini Schweinhox, where they they at the at the butcher, uh sorry, at the packing plant, they they take some like uh one of the bones uh in the legs, a smaller one, and make like mini Schweinhox with it so that they're they're like remember we had those in Milwaukee? Those things are sick. I for those of you that have never had Schweinhox, it's the best, it's one of my favorite pork. It's just like it's just a pork extravaganza.
+
+[24:20] You like that stuff? People in Germany love that stuff, right? You like that stuff, don't you? Yeah, no, it but that's yeah, that's what I was kind of going for. I was like, well, how can I make something that would kind of be like that, you know?
+
+[24:29] Yeah, I know that they love it here. So yeah, I mean, the only I think that would work. I mean, the the issue is is that uh the the advantage of the way that Wiley was doing it is the disadvantage of like tongue po pork style is that the that the the skin stays kind of gelatinous and gooey, which is delicious, right? But it's not gonna give you that crackling, going back to the word crackling, that crackling like hit that you get off of like a Schweinhoxa. But you know, we used to do pork belly doing that kind of long and low, whether you do a traditional braise or not, then cool it down, cool it down, and then crackle render out the the skin down almost like a duck breast, and that is good.
+
+[25:13] That tastes good. Uh or you could do the the prickle and like a little bit of basicity to make sure it browns and then broil crackle it, and then you'll get more of those kind of blisters that you get um on the skin in a more blistered pig sitch. The problem with deep frying the pork belly entire is that um you will most likely by the time the skin gets crispy crackly good, you most likely will overcook relatively large portions of the meat. Yeah, it was something I'd like to avoid. If I could.
+
+[25:48] Right. I just think doing it whole would be kind of hard as well. Uh what do you mean, frying it whole? Um, I don't think I could fry it whole. Yeah, so like the way to fry things uh I mean I can't rec I sorry, I can't recommend it.
+
+[26:03] It's not safe at all. What the hell am I talking about? Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna say, like, like don't don't ever do this, but like okay, never mind, never mind, never mind. Okay, okay.
+
+[26:11] Yeah, okay. But there are ways to do, for instance, relatively large shallow fries with based over so that you can fry just the bottom of it in kind of a shallow fry situation, and then do like a hot oil based over to rewarm the top, and that'll allow you to cook the skin more in a deep frying. But most of those involve extreme risks of oil fire and he's not gonna do them, so self-immolation. Thank you. Speaking as someone who has immolated themselves on more than one occasion.
+
+[26:42] Okay. Yeah. And by the way, I'll say one of my life goals is to never catch on fire again. I'm like at least halfway through my life now, and I'm gonna say Dave, you don't even know when your life is gonna end. I know that I know that I'm not gonna make it past 96.
+
+[26:57] Anyway, point being that, I mean, maybe I will, but I mean, odds are not. My point being that, like, I just hope that my catching on fire days are behind me. I think it's like it's it's I can ask for that at this point in my life. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[27:10] Alright, thank you. I hope for it for you too. Hey, just before um what was the temperature that you were going up for 72? Oh, geez, uh, I don't remember somewhere in the low 60s, I think we did. Low 60s.
+
+[27:24] So low 60s. I have to look it up. It's been many years since I've done a 72-hour pork billy. I can it's it's in Wiley Duf, it's in Wiley's uh cookbook. So if you have the WD50 cookbook, yeah, check it out.
+
+[27:35] The recipe's in there. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. Alrighty. Are you enjoying this show?
+
+[27:44] Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. I'm Luke Griffin, and I'm the host of Bushwick Podcast. Each week, we share the remarkable stories of how artists, activists, and entrepreneurs collide in Bushwick, a special Brooklyn neighborhood that's changing faster by the day. This episode is brought to you by Brooklyn Botanic Garden, a stunning 52-acre garden in the heart of Brooklyn, featuring spectacular plant displays and inspiring public programs year-round. Harvest Homecoming, an old school fall foliage festival, comes to Brooklyn Botanic Garden on Sunday, October 20th.
+
+[28:20] Celebrate cider season with New York cider houses and kombucha makers, bringing hard and soft ciders and fermented drinks to try or buy. A pop-up farmer's market will feature heritage apples from local orchards. Groove to the sounds of fresh Americana music and world beats throughout the day. Bring your friends and family and make a day of it with hayrides, lawn games, a children's Halloween costume parade, and more, all in the heart of Brooklyn. Learn more about Brooklyn Botanic Garden at BBG.org.
+
+[28:53] But anyway, so to go back just briefly to what Nastasia was saying before. We go into this place. We go into this place. Well, your punk motor is already like at what speed? Oh, well, we had been at a concert already, right?
+
+[29:07] So I'm already primed. The pump already has liquid in it. Yeah, yeah. I'm in a constant. So we show up, and I'm like, you know what, Nastasia?
+
+[29:17] It's 3 a.m. also. Yeah. I'm like, you know what, Nastasia? I hate this place.
+
+[29:21] And Nastasi's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. And they start playing really good music, including, as we all know that I enjoy Travis Scott. Yep. They start playing some Travis Scott. They start playing, like, you know, some older hip-hop that I know, some like Biggie, this kind of stuff.
+
+[29:36] I'm like, eh. Bomb, bum-bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so like, we're going. And then they make us move to a different spot.
+
+[29:46] So we keep dancing. So we keep dancing in the different spot. And then they're about to start their their floor show, right? And so this guy comes in. This guy comes in, an American dude, in his best Russian oligarch outfit.
+
+[30:00] You know what I'm saying? Like and and you know, if you're a Russian oligarch, you could pull it off. If you're just some like 25-year-old American guy, don't try it. You know what I'm saying? He comes and he's like, I need I need these spots for my people, and like shoes us out.
+
+[30:17] So then he, as he does this to to us, Nastasia goes, I hate this. I hate this! Like out loud in the club, like super loud, and just keeps repeating that. And I was like, you know what, Nastasia? I've never been more proud of you in my whole life.
+
+[30:37] And we and we walked out. Yeah, we're like, you know what? No, we watched the show and then we've got to be. I watched like five minutes of the show. Yeah.
+
+[30:43] Yep. And I was like, I'm not shocked, I don't care. You know, a little bit shocked. You were a little bit shocked. Man, it whatever.
+
+[30:53] I don't want to get into it. Anyway, point being that. Point being that, like, I found the hospitality wanting. Although, Dave, you don't realize that the bar before we were there, I had to do that to people. I had to be like out of these.
+
+[31:10] No, no, no. If you have a reserve table, that's a reserved table. We were told by staff to go to a place and then were ejected from said place twice. It's like I there's another bar I'm not gonna name that I will never go to again. Well-regarded bar, nice place.
+
+[31:25] I will never go there again because I was placed at a seat and then I was made to leave because they made a mistake. Once someone is seated, once you have given someone a place, it is their place. It is now your fault, hospitality person. That person is now your guest, and any other thing you need to do, you need to do. You're like this you can you can't, once you give someone a space, it's your fault.
+
+[31:53] What about when there is somebody sitting at a bar and there's two seats on either side and you have a two-top coming in? Do you ask them to move down? You can like it depends. If you have a good rapport with the guest, right? You can ask them.
+
+[32:08] They're not obligated to do anything. You can ask them if they mind moving over one. If they do move over one, it is then also nice to either give them something, or you know, VIP them somehow because they have done you a favor because how much obligation do they have to move? Zero! Also, we should give a shout-out to Pablo.
+
+[32:32] Well we're gonna touch one of the things we're gonna talk about. Well, we don't have a lot of time because we have a lot of clubs. Also, very important question from the chat. Is an oligarch outfit a gaudy suit or some sort of two-piece velour Adidas track suit track suit? Oh, I could be either.
+
+[32:44] This was the former. Good to know. Yeah. Oh, now I'm I'm kind of wishing this dude had like the kind of shiny track suit on. Yeah.
+
+[32:53] It's definitely the better option. Okay, let's get to the other side. Alright, so uh a couple of things. One, uh last night we went to uh the old lightning pop-up at uh Pepe's underneath Grand Tivoli, and tonight, I don't know if there's still reservations available, but look it up online. They're they're doing a pop-up at Hunky Dory in Claire Sprouse's uh place in Brooklyn.
+
+[33:15] So here's the deal. So uh Pablo, how do you pronounce his last name? Wa? Wah. Well Pablo Moi and uh Steve Lavigny.
+
+[33:22] V Lavigny? Is that right? I don't know. You're you're Italian adjacent. Lavigny, yeah.
+
+[33:27] Yeah. So his wife, who's great. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so here's what they did. They have a bar in LA in Venice, I guess.
+
+[33:35] Is it considered LA? Is that LA? Same? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[33:39] They have a bar, and their shtick, Steve and Pablo, is that they travel around and they find liquor stores in Southern California. And and no, everywhere. Oh really? Everywhere. They some of it's from Southern California.
+
+[33:53] They happen to live in that area, so a lot of it's there. Everywhere that have old bottles of liquor, and then they buy it all. So like they'll look, they'll look on a shelf, they'll see an old bottle, and they'll be like, yo, yo. We had a conversation with them last night about yo yo, you've got more of that. Crappy liquor stores.
+
+[34:08] Yeah, crappy. Uh I'm not gonna tell you their secrets, but they have a tried and true, like they look for a trifecta. I'll give you one of them. Don't say it, don't say it. I'll give one.
+
+[34:18] Don't say it, Dave. No, no, no, don't say it. Don't say it. It's mean to give away this. The secrets, okay.
+
+[34:24] I won't tell you what they are. There are three things. It's very funny. If those three things, if they call in or some point, give us permission to say what those three things are. There are three, they troll neighborhoods.
+
+[34:35] And if they see these three things in conjunction, and they are easy to see people. There's a pot at the end of the rainbow. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's like the rainbow leprechaun sitch, and they know they're gonna get good bottles. So they travel the country and they find these old bottles that uh you know the people are happy to get rid of because they're just sitting there collecting dust and have been for decades.
+
+[34:57] These are decades old bottles, but they're worth like hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars to people who know what they are. So they aggregate these and they have this amazing collection of liquor, and they brought it out east for their pop-up. Now, you know what when we travel to other places, we should try doing that. And then But I don't know anything about it. I know.
+
+[35:15] I don't know anything. I wouldn't know. Let's see if we can find the trifecta and then well then we'll call them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like FaceTime them.
+
+[35:21] Anyway, because the the the fun thing about the bar, right? Is like, okay, I I gotta be honest here. I mentally have a problem with spending eight Jillion dollars on something that I'm gonna convert from liquid to urine very quickly, right? It's just in mentally I don't have it in me to enjoy an ex absurdly expensive sip of liquid. And nostasi are the same way.
+
+[35:45] Right. Uh so you know, we didn't order any of the craze daisy crazy crazy stuff. Some people like I I mean, I understand why people really enjoy doing that. But uh, but what makes it really fun, really, really fun about, and that was by the way, I'm such a jerk. I'm such a butt munch.
+
+[36:04] We show up at the thing. Oh my god, yeah. I'm we're there with Jack Shram, uh, you know, uh Jack Shram friend of the show, uh head bartender existing conditions, Nastasia Lopez and myself. And by the way, we went there a week early. Because we got the date right.
+
+[36:16] We walk and we're like, Is this Pepe's? Where's Pablo? What's going on? And there's no one there, and we're like, you're a week early, jerk. Uh so, oh, and by the way, the and we should have known that because we saw them in LA at our party, and here's what they did.
+
+[36:29] Oh, yeah. Pablo and his wife packed a uh uh what was it an S Escalade or something like that? An escalade, not suspicious. A rented escalade with you ready for it, people? Five hundred thousand dollars worth of liquor, and then drove it across the country on an on an unannounced route that they wouldn't tell anyone so that they wouldn't get knocked over like lime trucks in the cartel days.
+
+[36:57] Oh my god. They went all the way from LA. Or it doesn't work. Well they started in LA. Okay.
+
+[37:02] They only made like two stops. It was crazy. So they arrived safely with with all all their all their liquor and all of their very, very fancy champagne, which is what Nastasia was going for, the fancy champagne. But the fun thing about uh uh the this crew is they both know so much about the liquors that what here's my butt munch move. I walk up to him and you know, Jack's like, I want rum, I want beep ba-boo and the bee and the boo-boo-bib bop, and so like Jack got a very good rum tasting.
+
+[37:30] I just look at him, I go, This I hate choice. Give me something fun. And he did. And he did. Yeah.
+
+[37:35] He gave me something super fun. Uh he gave me a uh a flight of mezcals that were all the exact same distillate, made at the exact same time, aged three different ways. And I was like, isn't it interesting? Like aged in clay underground for different lengths of time, then held in like a larger glass thing for a while. I was like, you know what?
+
+[37:55] That was fun. Thank you. You know what I mean? And then he gave me something from West Covina. Yeah, because that's where Nastasia's from.
+
+[38:00] Land of Goodburger. May I take your order, please? So, like the point is is that his knowledge of the products and like the deep, the weird kind of deep dive knowledge he has about all these rare and obscure bottles that he's bought, their provenance, right? The provenance story is always interesting, as well as the story of the individual uh makers and the stories behind the bottles and the different labelings and how things changed over time, makes for a really good experience. So we were like, we woke up this morning and we were like, we should have had him on the show.
+
+[38:29] Yeah, but you know what? I was thinking about this. Nastasia's like, we're dumb butts, why didn't we ask to have him on show? But they're they're real busy right now. They're moving.
+
+[38:36] But you should go tonight because it's the last night and it's fun. Yeah. Now, Nastasia, you did not bring with you Applehead dolls, right? No. We were gonna do classics in the field with Drina Dotson.
+
+[38:47] Applehead dolls, we missed it last week. Yeah, well, it needs a good chunk of time and we have some. So I'll say this. One of the people we met at uh the Houdini party was uh David Carp, Carp with a K. And you should look up this guy.
+
+[38:58] He writes for the LA Times periodically, and he has had many different lives over the course of his life, right? Which uh, you know, I can uh uh sympathize with. And he uh, you know, he's like a stockbroker, a music producer, but he's now one of the world's preeminent uh fruit experts. He's like a fruit explorer. What's unusual about carp is that most of the time uh pomological experts are either temperate fruit pomologists or uh tropical fruit pomologists or perhaps specialists like a citrus pomologist.
+
+[39:31] Carp is a lover of all I'm gonna say he's a generalist, because generalist usually is pejorative, right? Nastasia has never forgiven me for using the word pejorative with non-English. With non-English speakers, where I said something that was possibly insulting. He said your rotovap is weak, and they were like, What is what is weak? I mean, what is weak?
+
+[39:51] And Dave was like, I I mean, I don't mean it in a pejorative way. And they were like, What? And I was like, Dave, if they don't understand the word weak, how are they gonna understand pejorative? So, anyway, so uh anyway, where was I? So uh he has a love of all fruits, so not a generalist, but like deep dive everywhere, which is kind of rare, and of course, something that I really like to see.
+
+[40:13] He actually uh, you know how uh Nastasia and I uh enjoyed dates, and uh we had, you know, a listener listener gave us a bunch of dates and we used them years ago. Uh we he introduced us to uh actually we had it before the Bar He date. So for those of you that don't know dates, it's just a some information about stuff he dates go through many ripening uh stages. Most dates when they're uh what you know fresh on the on the tree are uh too astringent to eat properly, right? Uh and that's called the kind of the kalal stage.
+
+[40:44] But bar he dates, which were in season for like the one week that we were there, right, are edible in that stage, and he gave us a bunch. They're still slightly astringent, but they're their own kind of, they have kind of like this kind of almost coconut-y kind of snack crunch to them. They're they're good. But I kept them and let them go through all the stages at home, all the way from uh the Kalal to Rutab to um Tamar, which is like the biggest one. And so if you have never done that, it's too late this year uh to get the Kalal uh Barhees, but if you can do that next year, get them fresh and then allow them, they won't all ripen properly when they're not on the tree, but allow them to go through the stages and just taste them as they go from that kind of crunchy stage all the way through to their fully sugared stage.
+
+[41:29] And it is an extremely fun experiment to do at home. But related to applehead dolls, uh carp always related to applehead dolls, which by the way, the very first toy that was ever made was most likely according to Trina Dotson. Adam and Eve were at the entry, yeah. They were Applehead doll aficionados, according to Drina Dotson, but we don't have her book right now. Anyways, uh the uh the book that he said he happens to own one of one of, if not the largest, pomological library in private hands, David Carp does.
+
+[42:00] And so when I started talking to him about applehead dolls, I was like, he did not have a copy of Drina uh Trina Dotson's Applehead Dolls for Pleasure and Profit. And so we showed it to him, and he's like, good find. Good find. I'll have to get that. And but, but he said, I do own an Apple art book called Les Pommes Libertine in French, which we have ordered but don't own yet.
+
+[42:25] So maybe we'll wait till we get it in. But here's how you all know, if you've ever listened to any cooking issues episode, you know how applehead dolls work. There is a there is a uh like I guess an 18th century French thing, and that they did it also, I think in Asia, but a French thing, where what you do is is you take apples early, early, early. You put a bag around them so the sun never hits them. They grow inside the bag, but they don't color.
+
+[42:52] Then in September, you uh you cut the bag open for a couple of days, let it kind of accustom itself to having light without getting blistered, then you paint gelatin over the whole apple and then put a stencil over it. A pornographic stencil. Well, I was gonna get to that. You can do anything, but to be official French, like 18th century French person, it better be highly pornographic. Then it colors up, you remove the stencil, and you have like a yellowish green porno silhouette on a completely red apple.
+
+[43:27] And you can, if you look up Les Pommes Libertine on the internet, you can see instructions and pictures of this. I don't like any of the modern ones. I think they should go, but like the like what's kind of weird is that you know how there's um uh like uh little uh pores uh on apples, those little dots, and those are on the skin of the porno people. It's like it's real weird. Real creepy.
+
+[43:47] So we're gonna try to do that, although it's not really our year. But like next year. We need to find an apple person next year willing to bag up some apples. Well, if you're close to us, we'll make the stencils, we'll bring the paper bags. It could either in New York or LA a tree.
+
+[44:06] Because I'm not gonna be in. Yeah, but well, we don't know what anyway. So a couple of things before we gotta go. No, before we get kicked off the air, today there might still be tickets. I don't know if there are.
+
+[44:17] Mofad is teaming up with Delmonico's restaurant. Dave Hood Wonderich is coming, the chef from Delmonico's is coming, and they're gonna do a sick event at MoFad uh about kind of the long history of Delmonico's New York's oldest uh restaurant name and like amazing history. You might have heard of such things as the Demonical Steak. Maybe you've heard of the wedge salad, the wedge. So uh Fabian von Husky from Contra Wild Air, we were he remember he made that eggplant?
+
+[44:43] He made that eggplant like remember that? He made an eggplant hummus. And I was like, just call it a wedge salad. He's like hands out this like Baba Ganoush thing, he's like, wedge salad. Can you tell the story about the two men in the suits?
+
+[44:55] Two minutes. Uh the what? Two men in the suits at the Houdini house. Next week. Next week.
+
+[45:00] Uh so anyway, there might still be tickets uh to that. Go check it out. The ebony test kitchen is now in uh is now in um in the Mofad for the African slash American uh exhibit that we're working on for next year. And people, it is sick. Now, for the classics in the field that I was gonna do today, which apparently I don't have time to do, I was going to do, and it's friggin' sick, Alexander Kira's classic, The Bathroom.
+
+[45:29] I was going to relate his classic The Bathroom, printed first in the 60s, late 60s, 67, reissued in 76. I have the 76 version here in front of me, which has, as far as I know, the only detailed study of spatter patterns of urinals with various urinal shapes that I have ever seen. And also the only document I have seen with full pressure diagrams for different kinds of potties for both male and female users and the correct usage of such. I was going to relate it to Taylorism in the kitchen and the Frankfurt kitchen. But maybe what we'll have to do, maybe we'll have to do a straight up only classics in the field episode once, where we just handle Trina, we handle Alexander Kira, we handle handle the Frankfurt kitchen, and we ha handle like uh Galbreth and Taylorism in the kitchen.
+
+[46:15] All fascinating subjects. I really believe, and I was going to go into a long diatribe about how architects, designers, and cooks need to get together to make the kitchen the kind of place that it can be because how many of you out there are disappointed with your kitchen if it's not a hundred percent, you're not looking close enough. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[46:51] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network.
+
+[47:09] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[47:30] Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home where it all comes together.
+
+[47:57] Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together.
+
+[48:27] Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Nourish and Flourish, a handcrafted independent publication taking readers on a journey from the soil to the stars. Subscribe today at nourish and flourish dot site. This week on Meet and Three, we're ringing in the start of our fifth season with dispatches from Portland, Oregon's biggest food festival, Feast Portland. We're bringing you words of wisdom on launching a food business from food blogs. Most acquaintances from high school have now tried to start a food or fashion blog in some sense and quit very quickly afterwards.
+
+[0:38] Two ice cream shops. Every city you go to, the Sultan Straw is completely different than any other city. And it was like the most gut-wrenching miserable month. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah, we didn't start at noon, but I was here at noon.
+
+[1:25] So we're getting better and better, people. From a bird's P38 in Bushwig Brr Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasia de Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Nastasia? You doing alright? Got Matthew in the booth, how you doing?
+
+[1:35] Feeling great. So Nastasi is not wearing headphones this week. We could talk more about like uh last week's conversation about zero my term zero tasking, because we had someone write in who is uh a supporter of Nastasia, initially a supporter of me, supporter of Nastasi, if we have time later in the show, but I doubt we will because we've got an insane number of people with very interesting and different skills here at the program today. So I'm just gonna go through who we have. Pick up your phones, call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:08] That's 718-497-2128. First of all, we have longtime uh friend. You haven't been a guest uh as often as I'd like. Harold McGee, the uh grandmaster of uh science as it relates to the practice of delicious things in the kitchen. Sitting next to Harold, we have Ed Coronel, the maestro of Milk Cult in DC.
+
+[2:29] Fabulous ice cream joint, which I have not visited live, but you have sent me the ice cream. How are you doing? Doing good. Thanks for having me. Yeah.
+
+[2:35] Uh then to my immediate right, we have Ariel Johnson, the chief science officer of Good Eats. Uh, what are you, a professor in MIT? What the hell are you? No, uh I'm I'm I'm a independent scholar. Ooh, independent scholar.
+
+[2:49] I was uh I was a fellow at MIT for a while. Fellow. And you know, the NOMA fermentation, it's just what the volatile characteristics of of bitters uh you know and boozes as they're put through a GCMS with a sniffing thing. I mean, it's whatever you want to know about that kind of crap to Ariel's. I try I try to know all the things that you can know about flavor and chemistry and cooking.
+
+[3:13] There you are. Hey, you know what? It's too bad that you guys agree uh so often because since Harold is just finishing a since Harold is just finishing a book on a similar subject, like a cage match would have been awesome. But I've never seen you guys, I mean, it would be, I guess, like good press fodder, someone could be like the dueling books about flavor, but um, but then you you'd have to do that. I'm I'm amazed by it, and I wish I'd you know embarrassed.
+
+[3:37] I haven't written something that's good. Yeah, Nastasia and I once met the his n the guy who wrote Dueling Banjos. Wow. And he remember when we met him? Um Brinkman, remember Sophie's Sophie's dad?
+
+[3:50] He, among other things, wrote dueling banjos. And uh now I'm imagining, you know, bing ling bing ming ning ming ming ming while you guys are like fighting it out. Bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bang. I mean like as I I said many times, like he's done many things. He's one of those egot weasels.
+
+[4:06] Oh, the the Emmy Grammy Oscar. Yeah, and most of those are like huge cheats. They're just cheating. They're like, because like they write some freaking song that wins a Tony because it's in a freaking play, then that play is made into a freaking movie, and then they win an Oscar and they win a Grammy for the same song. I mean, boop boop but then if they put that sucker on TV, there's the Emmy!
+
+[4:28] I mean, you did one freaking thing and you get four freaky become an e-got? Ridiculous. Like people who do it in all different things, like I believe he won one in all different things, four different works. That is actually impressive then. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:43] But you might have to take that back if uh they make hustle and flow of the musical, and that way triple six mafia can be on their way to an egot. Oh, is that what they what they what they win their what what movie was it that they won the Oscar uh for the best song? Well, I mean, honestly, they'd have to do a television broadcast of the musical to also win the Emmy. I mean, my favorite But did you guys see like the the Jesus Christ Superstar live? I did not.
+
+[5:10] Nastasia is an enjoyer, a consumer of live television. I am not, but she wanted me to watch it. I forget why I didn't, because I'm constantly singing small riffs from Jesus Christ Superstar. Right, Nastasia? Um apparently, uh shh.
+
+[5:25] Oh no, I can't remember. There's a classical composer that's like a big fan of Jesus Christ Superstar. Uh, as we all know from someone that Nastasia met many years ago, you cannot trust the musical tastes of classical music. Even virtuosas have bad taste in pop music. Right, Nastasia?
+
+[5:47] And lastly, but certainly not leastly, uh, we have David Carp, the fruit. Now you go fruit detective. I'm a scientist specializing in fruit journalist and grower. Now we mentioned you on last week's program for those people who uh tuned in because we met you in Los Angeles at the Houdini party and at the uh Santa Monica Farmers Market, and we talked about Barhee Grapes last uh sorry, Barhee uh dates uh last week. And I also mentioned something I thought was interesting is that you are the rare lover of both temperate and tropical fruits.
+
+[6:19] You never see that. I think there are a lot of people that love mangoes and apples, at least certainly at the Santa Monica Farmers Market where I sell and write from um there are a lot of people who like who like both. Oh yeah? They're made tastes very I I would not I I wouldn't say that that's necessarily the case. But people who love lychees and who love grapes.
+
+[6:44] Yeah. I don't know, man. All I'm saying is that whenever I go to visit, like, okay, so here are the places I visited. I visited the one in betweeners are like the citrus people. And you hang out with the citrus people because you've done a lot of work with the citrus people trying to.
+
+[7:01] Oh, by the way, before we start, I'll I'll I'll finish this and then we'll start. So it's like when I visited Geneva, they didn't care about fruit. Phil Force line, maybe a little bit. That's where we keep that's the Noah's Ark of apples in the United States. When I visited the Brogdale, which is the you know, Defra's Noah's Ark of Apples in England in Kent, Nastasi and I visited once, Harold and I visited once.
+
+[7:21] Didn't care anything about the fruit. The various vigor of the trees was important, but not the fruit. They didn't care about it, and neither did they care about tropical fruit. Uh ditto most I mean, like whenever I deal with, especially apple, pear, and small fruit people, they're just grooving on the freaking plants. And you yourself told me yesterday, David, that that the freaking Noah's Ark of small fruits in the United States and Corvalis in Oregon, right?
+
+[7:50] Which should be the very freaking pinnacle of temperate fruit pomology in terms of deliciousness. They don't even grow them so they fruit. They put them in a greenhouse. They don't even they don't even fruit, they keep them in little pots. It's the most pathetic thing I heard.
+
+[8:02] I almost cried yesterday when you told me this. Well, those are just the strawberries that I was talking about. They do have pear trees, medler trees. Um how do you stop a pear from fruiting? I mean, that's the thing.
+
+[8:12] I mean pear trees are outside and they do fruit. Well, I mean the the strawberries are grown indoors and they don't. And do most of those people groove on the pears or are they sitting there? Well, they do, very much so. Really?
+
+[8:24] They are real connoisseurs after a fashion. You gotta get to know them. You visit a tropical fruit place and they go completely bonkers for the fruit. They're all about the fruit. You know what's his name?
+
+[8:36] Campbell at the Fairchild? Fruit all day. Guy just talks about fruit. I didn't hear him say one thing about a tree. Not one.
+
+[8:42] I didn't hear him say anything about leaves, vigor. He was like, this fruit, best. All he cared about was fruit. I think the trees are secondary to him. This is my kind of mental breakdown of like the maybe only a dozen or so.
+
+[8:53] You're the only person I know, I've met who cares about like kind of the whole, like the kind of broad spectrum of fruits in a deep way. How about that? Well, there's a reason for that. There are wine writers who care about a broad range of of wine, but there are very few people who have written about fruit professionally for their career. Like really just need for the general public in interpreting it.
+
+[9:16] Why is that? There are no ads, or when there were ads in newspaper food sections. Um there were very rarely that many ads, specifically for from farmers or or from from producers. And I guess the editors figured there was no reason why people would want to know about fruit, so nobody specialized in it. Huh.
+
+[9:36] Not not enough fruit service journalism. Or you have to you have to write a racy fruit stone fruit novel, like the orchid thief of fruit. It's been done. Look at and right here, as you would expect in Brooklyn, track down the lemon about a man's obsession with the f that very fruit. Why would someone write a book about growing lemons from Brooklyn?
+
+[9:59] Is it just like the unattainable? I mean, it was just not like It's about a man who fell in love with a lemon and not in a platonic sense. I've seen some racy lemons in my time. Uh remember the lemon we found, Estasi? Uh-huh.
+
+[10:12] Yeah. Yeah. Real racy. I bet you did. Yeah.
+
+[10:15] I've seen I've seen little boy lemons and little girl lemons. I've seen all the racinesses of lemons. But why so, what size is this lemon? Is this a Kafka-esque kind of a situation? Or is it a normal-sized or like relatively large eureka lemon?
+
+[10:30] I think it's a normal-sized lemon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What well, if you're from California, what's a normal sized lemon to you? Like, show me your hands. Okay.
+
+[10:39] Like they're they range from this size to like this size, but when you get that big, if you're a farmer, you're losing money because the market doesn't want something that's so freaking huge. That's like the size of a small football. Um, you want something that's like the size of I don't know, a large plum to a small navel orange. All right. And uh by the way, anyone listening right now who wants to go in on the chat room, uh, David is looking for a good old-fashioned citron market.
+
+[11:08] I said that my old neighborhood in the Lower East Side used to be around Soko Time, used to be like Citron Central. Like there would literally be tables set out on the street with all the various wares and various different kinds of qualities and prices of unblemishness. But uh no longer. My neighborhood is now merely a shell of its former orthodox self, and so you'd have to like go somewhere. So if someone can give us a good location before the show's over.
+
+[11:33] Uh, I'd appreciate it. Now, one thing I'm gonna have you do before I go into general questions. My uh the people who listen to this podcast are the kind of people that are gonna smuggle seeds, fruits, spices into this country illegally, because that's just the kind of people that listen. So give them your pitch for how detrimental that can be. Don't do it.
+
+[11:56] That is responsible for billions of dollars worth of damage a year and an increased load of pesticides on our environment as farmers deal with invasive introduced pests and diseases that it's not just a threat to the farmers, it's a threat to anybody that eats. I guess that's everybody, right? Who produces uh farmers produce grain, fruits, vegetables? Um epidemiologists tell me that it's increasingly looking like every possible disease from around the world that could exist in a given growing area in the United States soon will exist, which is the ultimate nightmare for farmers and for anybody that wants to eat good, clean, reasonably priced food. Why?
+
+[12:42] Because it's a huge economic burden, it's a huge uh uh medical burden on the population of the United States to have to spray, to have to spend time and money exterminating pests that were brought in just so casually, um, because somebody thinks that, oh, I won't hurt anybody. You can't necessarily see that tiny little bug, that little mite that might be the vector of a deadly disease that you don't even know about. Don't do it. And if not for that reason, because if you get caught doing it, people do get put in jail and fined big time. So uh one of those things, greening is an is an important uh disease, right or no?
+
+[13:21] Yes, it's a citrus, a bacterial disease affecting citrus that's been responsible for the devastation of the citrus crop in Florida off 75% in the last 15 years. Shouldn't they have picked a scarier name? I mean, greening sounds like one lung bing, yellow dragon disease. Is that scary enough for you? Yeah, baby.
+
+[13:40] That's awful name. Now I don't want it. Give me that one again. One lung bing, HLB for short. I hate that.
+
+[13:48] I don't want any of that in my citrus. Yeah. But does it actually kill the tree or is it just reduce the marketability of the fruit? Both. It certainly does kill the tree.
+
+[13:57] Yeah, yeah. All right. Uh alright, so should we answer some questions, Nastancia? Anyone any uh anyone any questions for our for our panel, Matt? Um not as of yes, nor do you have a market recommendation.
+
+[14:14] People, you're disappointing me. Okay. Alex Cole writes in. He's uh he's an MD candidate at uh at the U.M. Miller School of Medicine.
+
+[14:22] Uh he'd like you to know. Uh horse conch. You guys ever eat horse conch? Are you familiar with conch? Yes.
+
+[14:29] Alright. You ever you lived in the Northeast for a while, Harold? You ever uh in your in Massachusetts, in fact. Do you ever go out there to the Cape and forage for welks? Uh no.
+
+[14:39] Uh I did. Have many, many times. Uh so these are just a much bigger variety. What about you, Ariel? Are you a welk and or conch person?
+
+[14:48] Um, I'll I'll eat them, but I haven't had the pleasure of foraging for them. I don't you don't strike me, because if you don't like scallops, you're not gonna you're not like a conch person to stash. What about you, Ed Conks? Uh no, no on conks. Good word though, right?
+
+[15:00] Conch. Anyways, so when you say conch, there are are a wide variety of actually not even the same, not just this not the same species, not the same genus uh of uh gastropod, you know, uh foot stomach things that go around. Now, what you were asked uh I should read the question first. Uh thanks for your time and effort in producing my favorite podcast. Well, thanks for listening.
+
+[15:22] I'm glad somebody does. Uh you have a great sense of humor and unique knowledge. This is my first time writing, and I have a few questions. I've caught and cleaned some giant horse conch, the bright orange type from Key Biscayne, Florida. I was wondering if you think this is safe to eat.
+
+[15:34] Yes. Uh, how can I determine what is safe to catch and eat as I explore the waters in Miami? Do you have any cooking recommendations for this conch? I'm an enthusiastic home cook with access to basic uh a basic kitchen, grill, smoker, immersion circulator, dehigh. That's dehydrator, uh, and a pressure cooker.
+
+[15:51] All right. So, first of all, before I go any further, the the best kind of and safest, i.e. conservative reference that you can get is it's on the internet, fish and fishery products, hazards and control guidance, fourth edition, August 2019 from the FDA.gov. And if you search horse horse uh horse conch or conch in general, they list like uh two two uh two genuses of uh of conch varieties that are eaten uh and kind of what what might be wrong with them. So the biggest problem uh that you're gonna get from one, which you're not gonna get where you come from, is uh paralytic shellfish poisoning, but that's you would know if the water that you went in and harvested your conch from, because you're harvesting them, if there was a high concentration of that stuff in the water.
+
+[16:40] So it's not gonna be a problem. I was not able to find any like parasites, even though the horse conch, unlike the queen conch, which is like the one that's being overfished right now and like is you know, it's problematic because of over harvesting, but delicious and people love it. Even uh that one is a is an herbivore from my research, and the one you eat eats animules, it's carn carnivorous thing. But even so, I wasn't able to find like uh Anasakis worm references or or anything. I wasn't able to find uh any sort of parasite reference to it whatsoever.
+
+[17:12] So usually in something like that, either it's gonna straight out poison you, right, or it's gonna have uh some sort of a parasite. Now parasites are usually frozen out. Now I looked at uh I looked at a couple people's preparation for it, including Miss Florida, Miss Florida 2014 or something like that. She has a blog on cooking things, including including conch, uh horse conch, and she uh what she does, which doesn't strike me, I mean, I get why she's doing it, right, is she puts the whole damn thing in a plastic bag in the freezer, right? And then for like two, three days.
+
+[17:47] Now, this to me, there's two things you're doing here. You're killing it, like you know, like the modernist cuisine folks do with their oysters, killing it. And then freezing it through, freezing it through is gonna be an antiparasitic treatment, right? Because that's the antiparasitic treatment par excellence, you know, for pork and whatnot. Then she keeps it in the bag and thaws it in like water in the sink, but it because the conch is so big.
+
+[18:10] Oh, so you're not even Florida. Listen, the Gulf course, the Gulf Coast is more than just Florida, though. There's more than just Florida in the Gulf Coast. So, like that includes what? Louisiana?
+
+[18:21] Alabama? Mississippi. Mississippi, Texas. Part of Texas. Yeah, so I mean, what's more impressive?
+
+[18:27] Miss Florida or Miss Gulf Coast? I mean, if you were impressed by such things, what would be more impressive? Gulf Coast. Oh, they go, okay. So uh so, anyways, so then she thaws it for like hours and hours because it's so damn big, and then of course it pops out because it's dead.
+
+[18:44] Oh, she has a nifty trick though, which I think you could use no matter what. She drills a hole in like in the top section in the third spiral up, because that's the air section where the thing is, and she's and she says her words, and apparently everyone else is on the internet, because I did Google it, right? Uh, release the suction so you could get the conch out in one piece. Then you you clean off all of the gut, you know, the the kind of slimy gut parts, you cut off the uh the uh is it still called an operculum on that thing, Harold? I think so, yeah.
+
+[19:15] Yeah, yeah. And the tough foot part, then you you skin it like you would a uh freaking uh uh gooey duck, right? And then you got the nice meat, which you slice thin, and then apparently everyone serves ceviche style and a salad for conch salad. That's like that's the thing. I have seen other people where they do the light boil, like I would do for a gooey duck, a very light kill boil that will also loosen the skin and make it easier to peel.
+
+[19:39] That's what I do on the gooey duck. Uh maybe I'm just uh weasel. I don't know. And then I saw this other guy who's like, Yeah, I just break the shell with the back of a cleaver. So he's like he like covers it with a towel and he like he hits it, he hits it, he goes, Um what I'm doing is I'm going around the hemisphere of the top, going clack, clack, clack.
+
+[19:59] You can see this guy on the internet's clack, clack, clack, clock, clack, breaking it, and it gets it apart. Then he like twists the unfrozen, which I think is gonna be better in this case. Although freezing will tenderize. Conch is conch is a tough meat and freezing it and actually will tenderize it. And the best way to tenderize something through freeze thawing is to create large crystals, and the best way to create large crystals is to freeze slowly and thaw slowly.
+
+[20:23] However, you'll get uh a lot of what is called in the trade drip loss. And I also don't know how many kind of as long as it stays around zero. I'm I'm a little worried about how long it takes to freeze. I don't think it's gonna lose freshness. It just seems a weak way to do it.
+
+[20:36] You're gonna get a lot of drip loss, but maybe it's the best texture-wise, because the people who cook it or par cook it, they beat the ever loving piss out of it to tenderize it before they serve it, right? And Miss Gulf Coast 19 or Miss Gulf Coast 2014, I don't think she was pounding on that stuff before she made the salad. No. No. Yeah, she was uh skilled, skilled at drilling it.
+
+[21:00] Uh, I thought. Anyway, uh, so the question for you then is you can go traditional Caribbean style. Remember, it's a different conch from the Queen Cock Conch, and I don't know whether it's gonna taste sweeter or less sweet. Make sure you clean off all the goop. When I eat whelks in uh in uh in Cape Cod, I eat the whole damn thing.
+
+[21:14] I just boil them, rip them out, grab the operculum, shove the whole, you know, maybe peel a little bit of the stuff off, and they can have a little bit of that, yeah. That grew up at the bottom of the ocean taste. You know what I'm saying? Uh whereas I think if you go through the trouble cleaning it all, it should be a relatively clean taste, but I don't know how sweet a horse conch is versus a queen conch. I've had what you buy when you buy conch at a restaurant is queen conch, typically, right?
+
+[21:43] Uh but and this is again a different genus, uh, and uh has a different diet. So I don't know, maybe eating snails and crabs makes it taste better. I mean, I'm I don't know. I like snails and crabs more than I like that's not true. I like a lot of seaweed.
+
+[21:59] I really do. I mean, whatever. Uh, was that an okay answer, Sus? Alright. Uh his second question.
+
+[22:06] Similarly, I can catch iguana, an invasive species in Miami, but I haven't found much more than a few basic rep recipes uh or advice on catching and eating them with a cursory web search. Any tips on determining if it's safe to eat? Yes, it is safe to eat. However, uh iguanas, I'm gonna, this is a crap paper. I'm gonna read uh read you the thing.
+
+[22:24] Any tips on cooking them? I've never cooked one, but I can still talk about it even with no knowledge. That's what I'm here to do. Uh I have successfully caught and cooked a few uh fish and lobster from the area, so I'm hoping I can develop a number of recipes with ingredients only from foraging and fishing to have an authentic South Florida dinner for myself and classmates October 19th. Okay.
+
+[22:42] Uh the issue with iguanas and reptiles in general, are that's gonna be parasites, right? That's the issue is gonna be parasites. So here is a garbage paper. The biological risks of eating reptiles, February 10th, 2010, the source, the Spanish Foundation for Science and Technology Summary. Reptiles are bred in captivity primarily for their skins, but some restaurants and population groups also want them for their meat.
+
+[23:07] A study shows that eating these animals can have side effects that call into question the wisdom of eating this delicacy. And then they mentioned all things that are fixed by normal cooking procedures. Or freezing for parasite procedure. All normal stuff. They're like, may contain trichinosis.
+
+[23:23] So may pork. You know what I mean? Like, although not anymore. But you know what I mean? And then a list of things that ain't nobody ever heard of, but will be killed by cooking.
+
+[23:32] For instance, I'm gonna see if any of you know any of these. Pentasomiasis. Nope. Uh, you know, guess what? You're not gonna get it, especially if you cook the stuff.
+
+[23:43] This one I pr I appreciate. Nathosomiasis, like with GN, like gnashing of teeth. You don't want it, but you're not gonna get it. Sparganosis. No.
+
+[23:55] And these are all theoretical, these are all theoretical things. They also, reptiles have mites on their skin and ticks. So they didn't like get some samples of reptile meat and then culture up these. Not to the best of my not to the best of my thing. The clearest microbiological risk comes from the possible uh presence of pathogenic bacteria, especially salmonella, shigella, and E.
+
+[24:17] coli, and you're senior. Okay, like all the other food we eat. It's like people are such jokers. Like, how could anyone in their right mind make this as a recommendation? No, you better hold off.
+
+[24:31] It's got all the same hazards as all the other meat that you eat. So it's it's not gonna be sushi grade, iguana. That's what you're saying. Well, no, because of the salmonella. However, all the rest of the stuff you can freeze kill.
+
+[24:43] Like all the pathogens, you can you could freeze kill them. Yeah, yeah. Uh so I was mad about that. Uh and then I read a lot about I've seen some people, they whole spit roast the iguana. Apparently, iguana is a little bit of a pain in the butt to skin until it's been cooked, right?
+
+[25:01] And a lot of the there are whole spit roasted iguanas that people eat. I just don't think that's gonna be my jam. I mean, I like whole spit roasted cooey, you know, the guinea pigs. Yeah. But a whole roasted iguana, I just don't know that there's gonna be enough meat there.
+
+[25:15] I'm also not a frog leg guy just because of the quantity of meat to bone ratio. I mean, I don't mind bones, and I like the taste of frog's legs, but uh when someone says you're gonna have frog's legs, I'm not like, oh yeah! You know what I mean? I'm like, okay. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[25:28] See the difference? Yeah. So anyway, what do you go? Any of you guys huge frog legs, people? Yeah, fried.
+
+[25:34] Fried, but yeah, but like still, do you like all those bones? You just don't you don't care? Okay. Okay. But would you seek them out?
+
+[25:42] No. No. Harold? It depends on how much meat they have on them. I mean, some are really nice and you know, they've they've exercised a lot or something.
+
+[25:51] Uh, but others are really scrawny and they're not worth it. You lived in France. Did they actually eat frog uh frog legs uh to a large degree where you were? No, no. We I was in duck country.
+
+[26:01] Uh much much better. Oh, speaking of later, we're gonna get to this. There's a place called the Cajun Kitchen that is selling alligator meat on the internet, and it says alligator loins, five pounds, and put up a picture of a duck breast. I'm like, I'm not stupid. I know what a duck breast looks like.
+
+[26:19] And sure shooting I'd rather have a duck breast than an alligator tail, but because duck breasts is like, I mean, come on. Duck breast, it's meat's up there. Um above many meats. Okay. Uh any other any frogs' legs ideas over here on this side of the I mean, just some things you have to prepare yourself for like doing some manual labor.
+
+[26:38] No, yeah. You know, other thing about frogs legs that I don't enjoy is just the inefficiency of use to whole animal ratio. You know what I mean? It to me it's almost it's not as bad as uh shark fin, but it's like pretty close. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:56] They you cut the leg off, the two legs, and then you throw the rest of the body away. I've seen it like time and time again when people are selling frogs' legs, just cut the legs off, throw the body away. Like still living body. It's just like I just I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[27:13] I mean, like, look, if you lived in like a lakey swampy area, and you wanted to go out at night with your little frog fork and go frogging, you know what I mean? Because you were gonna eat it the next day and your place is overrun with frogs anyway, you sure, I get it. You know what I mean? But like the practice of raising these relatively large animals, specifically just to throw away the the greatest mass of their body into a trash can full of like things going with no legs on, it just I don't get it. I really don't.
+
+[27:49] Uh anyway, back to iguanas. So the problem with iguanas, uh, side from the relative boniness, apparently they they can taste very bad or not. So there was a there's a lady, also from Florida, who won some sort of contest for making iguana carnitas. And she, I think, just threw the stuff in a slow cooker and then picked it apart and then and then did it and served it. She didn't even taste it, which is I don't even know why they wrote the article about this person.
+
+[28:19] She didn't even taste it. Her 11-year-old tasted it. But she said something very interesting. She said the smell was terrible, and that she wouldn't cook it again because it smelled up her kitchen. And a lot of the traditional recipes that I uh looked at perform a traditional technique for many game birds going all the way back to Roman times and before, and that is a quick boil in water before the roast.
+
+[28:43] And so I'm guessing that there might be some, let's say, off putting stuff in the skin or areas around there. So I would say do the old school, which is a relatively quick boil, throw that water away, skin it after it's been parboiled, then shredder up, fry the meat, and I've seen people eat it that way on the internet, and they were happy. I mean, what do you think? What do you what do you think about those old Roman techniques? Parboiling.
+
+[29:09] In a pecious, the recipes look terrible because it looks like they're just boiling the piss out of everything and then overcooking the hell out of it. And I ran some tests. If you're dealing with like gamier meats, I can see it. Even like, you know, mo a lot of modern kind of hunting cooking manuals have the kind of pre-poach out. Uh, and a lot of people who um are doing uh bone stocks now do like the the low bring up skim to get rid of that initial kind of yeah, I mean it's sort of like a more uh assertive pre-soak.
+
+[29:41] I mean like brains or sweetbreads you usually eat brains? Um I have. I mean, like I mean I don't like seek out cow's brains, but we were doing like we were really like doing stuff with lamb's brains and in Copenhagen. Yeah, I don't eat brains anymore. I just too much is gonna go wrong.
+
+[29:59] It's it's just a matter of time. Like like it's just a matter of time before we before we all go kind of scrapie mad cow, like some sort of yeah, Jakob's Kreuzfeld variant, some sort of wasting disease. You know what I mean? Like, it's really just a matter of time, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:19] But they're so creamy. I mean, yeah, I mean I like brains. You know, I just don't I don't eat them anymore. I still eat marrow, and I guess that probably also has similar issues, huh? I mean marrow's good.
+
+[30:32] Right? If you Harold, if someone said to you you have to give up either marrow or brains, what would you give up? I'd give up marrow. Whoa! Because marrow is um it it just doesn't have the the delicacy, the range of flavors, the I mean the uh marrow can so easily just kind of fall apart into fat.
+
+[31:00] Yeah. So then are you giving up all stocks and all related marrow marrow related products? Oh that's a different no, that's a different story. But okay, so then let's have this discussion. How much in other words, marrow being primarily a fat-based fat-based vehicle, how much do you think the stock is actually benefiting from the marrow itself?
+
+[31:23] And how much is it just that the marrow happens to be there? No, I think I think its contribution is probably pretty minimal. Um, but if giving up marrow meant having to give up anything cooked with bones like stocks, then then I wouldn't make that trade. I see, I see. I see.
+
+[31:44] Huh. What about you guys? You guys uh brain aficionados over here. Well, you already said you like them, but I like them. I just don't eat them that often.
+
+[31:44] Yeah. I don't eat marrow more often than I eat brains. Do you know what? Like marrow on toast, I mean marrow on toast, like crusty toast, marrow. Yeah.
+
+[32:00] Real good. That that preparation alone, better than any brain preparation I've ever had. You look what do you how do you like your brains with eggs? Uh uh, no. Uh I mean just, you know, uh slowly roasted in brown butter with toast or something on the side.
+
+[32:17] I mean, toast is good. Everyone like I mean, like some people can't have toast. I don't know anyone that doesn't like it. You know? Yeah.
+
+[32:23] I told you, didn't I tell you I was in when I was in Iceland a couple of weeks ago, they served me the split slam's head without the brain in it. They pre-removed the brain. Yeah. They didn't leave it up to me to make that choice. And I have to say, although theoretically I'm angry at them for it, secretly I'm happy because I didn't then have to not eat something.
+
+[32:44] Yeah. Right? Yeah. All right. Uh okay.
+
+[32:48] So oh I didn't finish the oh I did finish the question. Right? We have a question from the chat. All right, chat, what do you got? R Lee thirty-two asks, any thoughts on using preparative liquid chromatography for flavor isolation.
+
+[33:04] Any chefs doing this? Ariel. Um yeah, I don't know of any chefs doing this. Um I mean it's possible that like the cooking lab in th in Bellevue has one. Um yeah, I mean, definitely it's something I've thought about a lot and been interested in trying.
+
+[33:26] Like the big roadblock would be solvents. Um most of the solvents that are really good for doing liquid chromatography are super nasty. So um I would avoid getting anywhere near like hexane or acetonitrile, uh, if you're a chef in the kitchen, unless you have a lot of knowledge about how to remove it well. So pot smokers often do extraction with very toxic things and then have you consume them. Is it just because they're doing something illegal anyway and they assume it's unhealthy?
+
+[34:00] Or like what do what are your thoughts on? Well, I don't know. I mean, now with um with like legal cannabis in so many states, uh, there are a lot of state level regulations about uh removing and testing for solvents, I believe. Um so like, you know, your buddy down the block, maybe he has some method for like removing all the hexane, but um uh certainly if you go to like Colorado or Massachusetts, they are going or they should be removing and testing for these things. Um I wanted to I wanted to do like solvent because I can't like I've have the supercriticals become reasonably priced yet.
+
+[34:43] Can I get a supercritical CO2 extractor for that won't blow up and kill my crew? Oh, to buy so I know d definitely people are getting more into supercritical extraction, which is a totally different process. It's clean liquid chromatography. I was gonna do butane. Yeah, so with liquid chromatography, you have basically tiny, tiny, tiny beads that are like sticky to organic molecules, and you like load a column of these with like your plant material and you push organic solvent through, and all the different flavor and other molecules stick to the solids at different rates and um come out in a separated way.
+
+[35:17] Uh whereas supercritical extraction you use carbon dioxide under like extreme pressure. Um so that actually acts as a like semi-liquid, semi-gaseous solvent, and you can tune the polarity of it based on like the pressure and the temperature. Right, but I mean I don't think the chromatography, I mean, just a first blush, I don't think it's gonna work because the yield's gonna be yeah, the yield's gonna be way too low, right? But if you're talking about stuff that has bad solvents, I mean first. Well, you're gonna I mean for like liquor chromatography, you have to use like a huge amount of solvent to get a separation.
+
+[35:49] Right. Yeah, because the because the the stuff you're trying to get off moves at a fraction of the rate of the stuff you're pouring on, so you'd be using like liters and liters and liters to get tiny amounts. To get tiny amounts. Maybe only need tiny amounts if you're just trying to get like you know, uh natural like eugenol from cloves. But I mean you should buy that crap.
+
+[36:07] I mean that the so this is the thing. If you're talking about chromatographic separations, most of the stuff you could buy from a flavor house is isolated that way. So like if you're talking about getting molecules uh, you know, uh methyl chavicol from basil from uh Ferminich is not going to be a different molecule than the one that you would get by doing that chromatography yourself. Right. So it's just for like bragging points.
+
+[36:38] Yeah, in other words, like that's why I hooked more on the idea of solvents, because solvents is something that I've wor wanted to use and don't because of the kind of you're using solvents. Well, and even I mean, like the the flavor and fragrance industry is moving as much as possible towards like so-called green solvents now, too. So they're trying to reduce the use of like hexane and other organic solvents and moving towards like water and microwaves and supercritical extraction. Right. But has anyone so back to my other question?
+
+[37:06] Has anyone made a reasonably priced safe supercritical CO2? I mean, like $20,000. Not reasonable for me. Call me when you sell it for five grand. Yeah, let if anyone out there knows of one cheaper than that, let us know.
+
+[37:21] But when I've been looking into it, that's the general. I think if it was five grand, a lot of people would buy it. I mean, at 20 grand a pot producer could buy it. Because presumably they're producing pot. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:33] Yeah, no, that would pay for itself if you're isolating TH. At my bar, I don't you know. Hey, I want to spend 20 grand. Why? Because flavor real fresh, real pure.
+
+[37:47] You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I don't see it. This episode is brought to you by Nourish and Flourish, a handcrafted, independent publication taking readers on a journey from the soil to the stars. Nourish and Flourish showcases thought-provoking stories from around the world and stunning photography. Each issue explores emerging trends in food, nutrition, recipes, soil health, technology, regenerative agriculture, travel, and more.
+
+[38:23] Volume one of Nourish and Flourish includes features on the Svalbard Global Seed Bank, the International Symposium on Bread, and Ancient Hawaiian aquaculture. Are you interested in eating healthier and learning more about where your food comes from and living a more connected life? Subscribe today at nourish and flourish.sight. For $29.99, you'll receive three issues. That's 38% off the retail price.
+
+[38:44] Nourish and flourish. Connecting readers with the people and stories that make a difference in living a more balanced, healthier life. Subscribe today or find a retailer near you at nourish and flourish. Thanks for your enthusiasm. I'm well on the way to convincing my wife that we should book a trip to the fruit and spice park in Florida.
+
+[39:17] Dave, I'm glad you're here for this. We have a little research to do to pick the best season to visit. So what are your thoughts on? I know you said you haven't been there in a number of years, but what what are your thoughts on the best season in South? It's in Homestead, right?
+
+[39:30] Yes. In Homestead, Florida, to visit for the widest range of cool. And how do you book a trip there whereby someone will walk around with you and actually allow you to taste things? You know, I haven't been there for a number of years, so I'm not sure whether I know they do have festivals held there from time to time. I would go at the same time as the Fairchild Tropical Botanical Garden Mango Festival, which is usually held in the middle of July.
+
+[39:57] Not that from the point of view of climate, the most salubrious time to visit Florida. Nevertheless, um, you'll be able to taste mangoes, probably lychees, longan. Um, it's a pretty good time. Plus, it's in the middle of summer, which is convenient for a lot of people to travel. Like with some of the other stuff that I know that you're not a fan of.
+
+[40:13] I don't know what the bearing season is. Like they have a lot of different varieties of Chiboticaba there. Are they ever bearing? What are they? I I'm not I'm not sure.
+
+[40:23] We in California, I think things are probably different, so I can't I can't they have some nice mace. I don't know if that's seasonal. They have a lot of interesting aromatic leaves. They have starfruits. I don't but the thing is they have such a wide rate do you remember when we went Nastasia?
+
+[40:37] Were we in Harold? Well we might have gone once during uh the mango season time and they also add jackfruits but it's not like you can eat one of those off the tree anyway. You gotta have you ever has any of you listening ever gotten jackfruit latex on your freaking clothes damn I I I've still not gotten it out of the it wasn't it jack it's jackfruit right that has the vicious latex that you have to cut and let skim over after it hits the ground am I correct on this? I think I am yeah it's nasty. It does not come out of your clothes.
+
+[41:07] Is there an industrial use for that latex I don't know I know that Italian American teenagers used to tattoo themselves with fig sap which is sort of in I believe in the in the in the same family they would inscribe their girlfriends' names on their arms in fig sap. How long is that last? Infinitely I don't think so it's like it's like the henna so it's not a big commitment. It's like saying I like you it's like you and me for at least two weeks right uh I can't call on the show is live but I have two questions. We will be in New Orleans in two weeks do you have any awesome recommendations?
+
+[41:48] Food and drink are both equally enjoyable for us any of you guys been to New Orleans more recently than I have I went to Duke Chase's which is great. Get the shrimp clemenceau. Get the shrimp clemenceau now back when Leah Chase was alive, she published several recipes for shrimp clemen so. I have made this recipe, and it does not taste like the shrimp clemence so they serve at Duke Chase's. Which leads me to believe she was holding something back in that recipe.
+
+[42:16] Unless, and this is possible, golf shrimp are the best tasting shrimp that God has ever created. And no offense, Golf or Miss Golf 2014. I don't think so. You know what I mean? I don't think so.
+
+[42:30] I think they're adding some other stuff, but try their shrimp clements, so make sure you have a lot of other things to soak up all of the butter because you're gonna want to consume. The star of that isn't the necessarily the potatoes or the shrimp, it's the butter. Just like nom nom nom butter, butter. And then uh, and you know, have their fried chicken definitely, but also a block from there is Willie May's chicken, which is one of the original traditional like Louisiana fried chicken joints, well worth uh a visit. If you're gonna do muffalettas, uh just you need to have at least two different styles of muffaletta.
+
+[43:04] You need to have both a hot and a cold go. I know it's tourist trap, go to the central grocery, get the traditional muffaletta. I like it, some people do it. You that don't like them, Nastasia, do you think they're too pretty? Not you anyway, and go to Napoleon House to get the hot one, and while you're at Napoleon House, get you a Sazerac or a Pim's cup just because it's traditional there.
+
+[43:22] They ruined it like five, six years ago when they put air conditioning in. It used to just be a hot box all all year round, but it's a good old place. And then if you want to get out to a different neighborhoods, go to uh I don't know, go to Couchon or any one of those nice uh places out there, right? Also, do you have any experience with low temp alligator? No.
+
+[43:41] No. Uh it's a pretty crappy meat, right? Maybe not worth bringing home a giant chunk of frozen gator. Okay, so Nastasia Lopez, Piper Christensen, uh, and who else was on that trip with you? Grace.
+
+[43:53] And Papersmith. Yeah. We're in a motor home in Florida, maybe eight years ago. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[44:00] They drove a motorhome all around Florida with a package of frozen gator, and then we had to cook it in the motorhome kitchen, and it has ruined me on gator. First of all, the frozen gator in a plasti thing is like not like a gator steak. It's like just like shredded, nasty gator meat that's been frozen and kind of weepy thawed, and it was just like it was unpleasant. I've had fried gator plenty of times at like tourist establishments, and you know what it tastes like? Fried.
+
+[44:28] It tastes like fried. Just tastes like fried. You know what I mean? It's fried. People were like, it's firm, it's uh it's like monkfish.
+
+[44:35] No, it's not. I've had a lot of monkfish. Uh I don't find it bad. I know it's the stuff that Piper bought was garb. It was like just garbage.
+
+[44:44] Like, but I've had it be fine, but if you locked me in a room and said what does alligator taste like, I'd say, uh I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. You know what I mean? Uh have you what have you guys had good or bad gator experiences?
+
+[44:59] Yeah, I've had pretty good roasted gator, but it's always like been in a rice dish. It's never been like in a jambalaya with gator. It's never been like a gator steak, like gator tail steak or anything like that. Right. And so the jambalaye is so highly flavored, what the hell?
+
+[45:14] But there's a texture in there, and I mean it's not bad, but it's it's like chicken-ish. Was it was the was the base uh like did they use a gator stock for liquid? No. Right. If you can't make a stock out of it, how good could it be?
+
+[45:28] You know what I mean? Like, chicken stock tastes like chicken stock. Turkey stock tastes like turkey stock, right? I've even made squab stock it in in in bags because it doesn't take as much bones to make a stock in bags, right? Beef stock, good, veal stock good.
+
+[45:44] Pork stock can be good if you get rid of some of the initial garbage stuff in it. Would it would frog stock be a good use of uh frog leg waste? You know, when I think of frog bodies and aroma, all I can think of is formalin cured frogs, you know, from dissection tables, or like the unpleasant experience I had of harvesting gastrocnemus muscles from frogs for my art projects where I was chloroforming and pithing frogs uh way back in the day. So uh I'm having a tough time thinking about the stock. But I would guess the problem with frogs also is that is that almost all of their musculature is in their legs, and then the inside of their bodies is mainly guts.
+
+[46:29] Right. You know what I mean? People aren't like getting excited over gut stock. Yeah, gut stock. Yes, gut stock.
+
+[46:36] What? Bone broth, yes, but yeah, bone broth which it was a joke about nomenclature. I know, but okay, not an excitement. Alright. Alright.
+
+[46:49] Uh just stock. Here you go. Uh no. Well, there's a new liquid nitrogen ice cream shop in our neighborhood. They have a very cool uh liquid nitrogen setup.
+
+[46:58] What's your thoughts on liquid nitrogen ice cream shops? It's um it's not a bad so for people who want to do it, I think it's a great business. Um it can be a great product because obviously you're you're you're chilling ice cream super fast, it's probably gonna have great texture. Um, but it just depends on where they're getting their ice cream base. If they're getting just run-of-the-mill, you know, not great ice cream base, then you know it's it's probably not gonna um taste that great, even though texture might be awesome.
+
+[47:28] And um it is because the cost of running that shop labor-wise, they can't churn through customers really fast. They're probably not going to get the best ice cream base. But maybe they are. I can't speak. But like, if you know if the spectral's nice and like a lot of my friends, their kids like it, so you know, go check it out.
+
+[47:46] I always say, like, if there's something you want to check out, you should go check it out. Uh, what kind of freezer do you use? So we have a carbigani LB502. Well, what size is the 502? Um usually we do like a 15-court batch uh for our batches.
+
+[47:59] And a lot of people on the call onto the show asking where to look for equipment, and there's a website, it's an aggregate called Turnkey Parlor, and they refurbish equipment because like there's always ice cream places and yogurt places going out of the business everywhere all over the United States, and they at least provide like a three to six month warranty on most of the stuff that they send back out into the world, and it's a pretty good resource for people who because people are always asking like where to equip and turnkey parlor, um, they have a website and they they're a pretty good source because they they they refurb. So how like how much would like I don't know if you look, but how much is like an old LB100? I mean, they don't make the LB 100 anymore. It's not actually that much cheaper than a 502. Really?
+
+[48:43] Yeah, because the countertop LB100, it's nice because it's like uh 220. Um, but and it's like a three to five quart batch. I've used a three-quart maybe. Yeah, and it's air-cooled, it's air-cooled, but it's still like seven to nine grand. You can get a nice, you can get a nice 502.
+
+[49:01] I have a theory about why the 502s are so cheap. Um Colts Coldstone, the chain, they were running all of their businesses on 502s for like a decade, and a bunch of them all went out of business. And so there are all these five refurb 502s on the market. And they're 12 grand, 10 10 grand, 12 grand, depending on where you get it refurbed. And you know, they last 20, 30 years.
+
+[49:29] Like they're it's like a stove. I mean it's a reverse out. Like there's there's there's nothing to break except your belt, and like I've replaced the motor on ours before, and I mean they just let it run. And the refrigeration system's pretty robust. Yeah, it's 404, and you know, if you need to get it recharged, it's not super cheap, it's not super expensive either.
+
+[49:45] And the front doesn't break like the LB100s used to break all. It's all stainless. So it doesn't have the plastic door, it has got a stainless door. And now, the reason I asked, what's the batch time on that? Oh, I mean, it's super quick.
+
+[49:57] I mean, depending, I mean, as low as three minutes and as high as like nine minutes for 15 core batch. Alright, listen very carefully, people. Theoretically, liquid nitrogen is going to give you smaller crystal size. If you have a machine that can do a batch of ice cream in three to what do you say, eight? Three to nine.
+
+[50:18] Three to nine minutes, your tongue is not an accurate enough texture measuring machine to tell the difference in ice crystal size uh at that freeze rate in a batch freezer. It it just isn't. The liquid nitrogen, it's a spectacle. It's a nice people like seeing it, you know, when they go into stores, you know, it's what I don't like is the people who are bad at it who get chunky pieces that are over frozen. It's not that they're bad, it's just like they need to be tempered out all to one temperature.
+
+[50:45] You know what I'm saying? I find more often than not, I would prefer someone make ice cream, draw it at the correct temperature, and then have it in a dipper case at the correct temperature for serving, and then serve it to me. I find that that is when ice cream tastes the best. Am I wrong about this? No, you're completely right.
+
+[51:05] I mean it's like serving if if but it's it's another like place where service can fall, is where what serving temperature is. People don't spend enough on their dipper cases? Uh no, they don't keep track of what's happening in the store. So if you know, if if it's if there's a big open window, it'll rate it'll pop the temperature of the dipping dipping case up like five, ten degrees, or they'll have it running like too cold through part of the day, or like it won't they'll keep everything in a hardening cabinet overnight, pull it out for service, but the first like three hours of service, everything's too cold. I'm assuming that the most of the dipping case is like you get that big thermal mass from underneath the like you have like inserts, right?
+
+[51:45] And so like are they separately refrigerating the top and bottom so that the No, it's it's one, it's usually one refrigeration coil that wraps around the whole thing, and they function really well because they're top open, and the air replacement when you open the top isn't as much as like a side open freezer. And so, and they have a lot of mass in there, which helps it keep cool as well. But usually those those fillers are just air. It's it's not um, there's not like large fillers that take up all the space. Uh this actually wasn't what they were asking about.
+
+[52:18] I just as an aside. Uh I'm sure the folks that work at the LN ice cream shop uh will eventually be convinced that I deserve to play around with some of their liquid nitrogen. All I have to do is buy enough ice cream to win them over, right? Uh if I were to nitromut drinks in their shop, first of all, they're not gonna let you nitrile muddle drinks. If they're if they have any brains, they will not let you touch anything in their shop.
+
+[52:37] Now, they might sell you some liquid nitrogen to take home in a thermos. But anyway, uh, how long would the herbs last? Assuming I muddled mixed with booze and then went home to make the drinks. Could the herb-infused liquor last long enough for tasty cocktails in the evening? No.
+
+[52:55] So, I mean, it depends. So, uh, oh, by the way, uh, Nastasia, for your records. Uh, big fan, uh, 36 male, no kids, patient wife who puts up with me spending too much money on cooking equipment. Aaron. All right.
+
+[53:07] Um, so the here's what it is. Uh, certain herbs are bulletproof, like parsley. Parsley is fine, parsley doesn't oxidize. Certain herbs like mint, minutes after you nitrile muddle them, they start turning swampy. Something like Thai basil's in the middle, a Thai basil daicquery batch that's been nitro muddled.
+
+[53:28] So the the best thing is if you're gonna save it, is what's called kind of blender muddling where you freeze, it's a combination, it's nitro blender. Don't just blender it, it gets oxidized, but like freeze like a relatively large quantity of the herb in liquid nitrogen, drain and reserve the liquid nitrogen if you don't have unlimited supplies like I do, put it into the vita prep, pulverize it frozen, and if it starts thawing out, add a little more liquid nitrogen, and then add uh the liquor and the rest of it briefly pulse to mimic shaking, which is where a lot of the color transfer takes place, is after you pulverize it in the shaking, is when you actually get a lot of the color and flavor transfer. Strain so that the herb particles aren't in the drink uh as you're storing it, and that's the way you can keep the batch the longest, and it can go anywhere from hours for a parsley to about 45 minutes for a Thai basil to about zero for mint. In my opinion, mint is the most fragile. It's like mint and limes are God laughing at us for trying to preserve things.
+
+[54:27] You know what I mean? Because they just don't want to they don't want to stay. You know. Um I don't have time to read this right now, Nastasia, because I got but I'm gonna I'll read I'll read Nick's thing. I'm on zero tasking next week when we're gonna go back for oh having zillions of guests too having probably no guests.
+
+[54:43] Uh but uh I thought it was interesting someone asked on the uh Twitter whether I was gonna do classics in the field this week after I said that we had this all star guest and I uh I I will because I have one that you know maybe David you could talk about. Ready? Ready? It's time for Classic City in the field yeah all right. Today we're gonna be talking about agricultural extensions, the land grant uh the Morrill Act, land grant colleges, and uh a little thing called the Geneva Agricultural Extension, UP Hedrick, and the fruits of New York.
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+[55:16] Uh now those of you that don't know this, you have a let's say a relatively exhaustive uh collection on uh fruit, correct? Right, about 2,000 bucks. Yeah yeah which is a lot. As they say, a lot. It's a lot.
+
+[55:30] Uh so uh when I first met you I mentioned that one of my prize possessions is I have almost the complete fruits of New York. Now for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about you're in a little bit of luck. All of them have been put on the uh internet. They've been all been digitized. So in the 1860s, right?
+
+[55:52] Actually before in the 1850s, they tried to get uh the US government, federal government to give land to the states so that the states could then uh sell it and make money, but they needed to establish what's called land grant colleges to uh promulgate uh knowledge to kind of average average people farmers because this is during the time when agriculture and in fact all working professions were becoming more uh investigated by science. It was more of an idea of education built around trades and practices, right? So Buchanan, being the dumb bastard that he was as a president, uh did not sign the uh land grant uh that the Moral Act in soon when Abraham Lincoln came into power, he did. It was one of the things that he did during the Civil War, uh, and then after it, most of it took place. Michigan, I think was the first land grant uh college that was built, but Cornell not that far behind.
+
+[56:51] Uh now, these were funded by the states, which means that each individual state did their did their own uh thing. And in 1905, the agricultural extension, a guy named S.A. Beach, who was the second head of the horticultural uh thing there at uh in Geneva, New York is where it was, came out with a two-volume set called the Apples of New York. Now, for those of you that know anything about New York City, uh New York State, we know apples. We we do good apples here.
+
+[57:17] A lot of stuff we don't do that well, but apples, it's we're good, we're good. And back then, better, right? You know what I mean? Uh so it was true or false, like still is one of the top two or three references on apples that's ever been published. There have been dozens of books, so I'd have to think just what it is that we're talking about, but certainly it's indispensable.
+
+[57:39] It's a linchpin of the lineup of anybody's pomology collection. And it's gorgeous. It is, it's a beautiful set. Now, it's two volumes and it's relatively uh small compared to the format of not not in length, because it's two volumes, but in physical dimensions, it's length and width is more of a normal book size, not a coffee table book. But it had for the time very advanced color platework and has some of the prettiest pictures in it of any pomological text of that era.
+
+[58:09] Would you agree? I certainly would, yeah. Yeah. And now, SA Beach, like, I don't know, he wasn't here for the long haul. He leaves after 1905, and in comes a guy named UP Hedrick.
+
+[58:20] You want to talk a little bit about UP Hedrick? Ulysses Prentice Hedrick, who died, I think he was in his 90s in 1951, was one of the greatest pomologists, so much so that one of the orchards in which Andy Marianne and I grow stone fruit in Morgan Hill, California is named the Hedrick Orchard, the our largest orchard, in fact. And he was head of the the agricultural station and in Geneva for many years, including for six, I believe, of those large the the Apples of New York was an octavo-sized volume, if that means anything to book lovers out there. The um the main New York fruits of New York series was a quarto size. They're huge.
+
+[59:01] They're maybe the size of a Manhattan phone book and then some. Yeah, no one remembers what a phone book looks like. Just you and me. Yeah, but yes, yeah. And they're like, I don't know, 600 pages each.
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+[59:12] There's the cherries, there's the peaches, there's the grapes, um, small fruit that the small fruit of of New York, the pears of New York. Yeah, yeah. I've got them all. Um but the rarest were the they were followed in the the the fruits series was started with 1905 with the apples. Most of the rest of them were the plums.
+
+[59:33] We didn't mention the plums, were from like 1910 to 1922 or something like that. And then the there was four volumes of the vegetables of New York, which are much, much rarer to find. There are the beans, the corn, the peas, and the cocurbits, which you have in your hand. Which I have in my hand, which is, I think, one of the prettiest. Why don't you pass this around and look, find some choice cucribits?
+
+[59:59] And first of all, uh, I just love the word cucurbit. Or I don't know even how I was pronounced. That's how I call it, because I'm singing in my head like old, you know, reggae songs. Cup bit, cucurbit, cucur bit, taking over. Anyway, so like the uh point is is that the pictures in this are awesome, and it's also one of those things where they grouped it botanically and not by eating.
+
+[1:00:21] So cucumbers and melons and pumpkins, all of the cucumbits are handled in the cucurbits of New York. Um, well, it's amazing, they had to go back to get funding from the state legislature. And these documents were put out when they were put out as part of the annual report of the agricultural station. And so they kept on getting into arguments about how much m you so the the beach volume they were produced in a limited number and distributed to people who needed them, like farmers and stakeholders and libraries in New York State. The beach ones were smaller, the SA Beach Apples in New York came in two volumes and were smaller.
+
+[1:00:57] But when UP Hedrick came on, he started making, as you say, these giant volumes that were quite expensive to produce, and I believe were relatively controversial in the state legislature. They were spending all this money on the production of these things. So by the time UP Hedrick was retiring in the in the mid-20s, or he wasn't doing that anymore in mid-20s, his understudy, who I think was chafing a little bit, Tapley, Tapley, right, he is the main author on half of the vegetables of New York, but they had they hadn't reduced their production value in terms of the pictures, but they'd stopped hardbinding them. They were they were cardboard bound and they came in these kind of awesome envelopes. The hardest one of these to find is, I believe, it's either peas or beans.
+
+[1:01:38] I forget which one is easy. If you go to Cornell's website right now, right now, and you go to the agricultural extension, they still sell for only, I think, $50 new old stock copies of the corn of New York, the sweet corn of New York, which is also a good find. So you can go buy original from the supplier a copy of one of the vegetables of New York. The rest of the stuff, uh, if you get a perfect, if you were going to collect these, which I recommend, because by the way, not only are the pictures awesome, but like he they go through at the time what was an exhaustive uh discussion of where the fruit came from and how it grows and tastes as grown in New York State. So especially for a New York person, it's like really cool to have.
+
+[1:02:27] It's very expensive to buy a complete collection. I suggest getting individual books as they as they as they come up. And these vegetables are printed on glossy, higher quality paper, in fact. They're very high quality. But I what I was told, and I can't remember who told me this was many years ago, uh, from somebody actually at the the station, was that they ran out of money during the depression.
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+[1:02:53] They their vegetables were printed in the 1930s, and ultimately the state legislature said, all right, enough of that. And the series came to an end. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a shame. They were gonna keep, I think uh in the first one of the vegetables of New York, they write down all of the things that they planned on writing, and then yeah, they only made made four of them. There is a book not written, I think by the Ag extension, but funded by the same kind of thing called the Wildflowers of New York.
+
+[1:03:20] That's an interesting document, but since you can't eat wildflowers, I just don't care about them. I do own it. I mean, you can eat wildflowers. I mean, some of them, right? Like what?
+
+[1:03:29] But which wildflower? Well, like tiger lilies, but is that considered a wildflower or is that an invasive species? Beach roses. Oh, the hips. Yeah, but this is literally the flowers.
+
+[1:03:39] Literally the flowers. How do they taste? Delicious. Really? Yeah.
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+[1:03:42] I mean, like a tiny bit better, but they have this like amazing, like perfumed rose quality. That's a nitrum level those. Oh yeah. There are cookbooks of edible flowers. So yes, there are plenty of dandelions.
+
+[1:03:53] Dandelions, lavender. Dandelions, okay, okay. Dandelion wine, I've had, I've enjoyed. I have just put dandelions in my mouth and gone home homep, and I'm not like, you know what? I want to eat that again.
+
+[1:04:08] And most flower books. Yeah. Look, it's like mushroom people. Like they rate it, is it poisonous? Is it edible?
+
+[1:04:17] Is it choice? I'm gonna go ahead and say not choice. You know what I mean? Cattails, but you consider that a flower? Oh no, but we're talking about edible wild.
+
+[1:04:26] Yeah, but you eat the shoots and root. This is just flowers. It's not like this is not like Yule Gibbons. Like, this is wildflowers, like flowers. And I've never, I mean, I like nasturtiums, I guess.
+
+[1:04:39] There you go. What other flowers you guys like loved? Chive flowers, garlic flowers. Good, right? Yeah.
+
+[1:04:46] Uh Borridge. Good. Right. But like of the flowers that don't come from an otherwise known herb. Like, what's a flower where you're like, oh yeah, mustard flower is good.
+
+[1:04:57] Elderflower. Elderflower. Hmm. What's the deal with elder flower anyway? Like, is it true that like that that you can poison yourself off that stuff, or that there's some sort of the berries or poison?
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+[1:05:09] What is it? Is it uh with elder berries? I'm not gonna get this completely right, but like be don't ever eat underripe ones. Don't eat the twigs, and like be very careful about drinking the juice. I was gonna bring my may apple in for all you guys to taste.
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+[1:05:27] Speaking of the fruit, perhaps don't even drink the juice. There's both like a an alkaloid and a cyanide issue with elder berries. But not elder flowers. So uh elder I thought there was an elderberry wine. No, there is, but uh there have yeah, elderberry wine when you ferment it is fine.
+
+[1:05:47] Some varieties of elderberry juice are fine. There are also like public health records of people being poisoned from improperly prepared elderberry juice. Is it that they're actually picking the wrong stuff? No, it's the right stuff, but either the wrong time or they're getting twigs in it, and the wood is not good for you. Oh, it's the wood?
+
+[1:06:09] And the underripe berries. So uh I know we're running out of uh in fact we've run out of time, but uh one thing, Harold and I separately when we were at Harvard uh a couple of weeks ago, whatever it was, uh mentioned I was like, we passed by a U tree, bush. You know, they don't turn into trees here. You know, a U bush. Which uh for those of you that don't know, what's the genus says?
+
+[1:06:30] Taxodium? What is it? Uh anyway, U. Why? Texas.
+
+[1:06:36] I think it's Texas. Yeah, yeah. So it has a a very um, has a very, it's not technically, it's what what is it when it's not a fruit? An arrow, what is it? It's not a fruit because it's a conifer.
+
+[1:06:44] Arrow, is that what they're called? Little berry-like thing that's not actually a berry because it can't be a berry because it's not on an angiosperm. Anyways, the red thing on the U. And you can tell when you look at it that it's a U because it's like a cup-shaped. I'm just gonna call it a berry, people.
+
+[1:07:03] Please don't get mad at me. Uh it's like a cup-shaped berry with a seed on the okay, again, don't get mad, with a seed on the inside, right? Okay. And you've all seen these if you've been near an ornamental hedge in the northeast. All right?
+
+[1:07:17] Now. Deadly poisonous. The seeds. Deadly. Like, literally, like, how many seeds, Harold?
+
+[1:07:25] Like cup. Couple seeds. No idea, but not many. Not many. Like, it's one of those things where you have to warn your kids.
+
+[1:07:32] I mean, I don't know whether it's oleander poisonous, but it's like real poisonous, right? The fruit, not poisonous. And so I'd lived like, you know, whatever, 47, 48 years without ever tasting one, even though I grew up around them all the time. Harold, you also, and we talked about it, and you had also just recently tasted it. Yeah, in in Cambridge that that week.
+
+[1:07:55] Yeah, and so, and what are your thoughts? Uh to me, it didn't taste like much. Ding. There you go. Edible, not choice.
+
+[1:08:03] Don't bother. It's not worth the risk of ingesting the seeds. The Hawes, on the other hand. Oh my God. So uh I constantly make fun of the Harvard students every time I go because there's all these cool plants to forage from.
+
+[1:08:16] And Harold and I stayed at a place called the Sheraton Commander, near where uh what's his name? George Washington took command of uh the troops during the Revolutionary War. Uh anyway, so and as we walk to class every year for the past, I don't know, nine years. Stas, you tried it, I think you like it too. We passed this haw tree, and this year, the haws are always kind of okay.
+
+[1:08:38] They're real seedy, but they're they're they're high acid, punched, almost like a rose hippie taste, wouldn't you say? But like juicier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:08:46] Uh this year, the haws were out of this world. Fantastic. Yeah. Amazing. I the best haw are the tr on that tree.
+
+[1:08:56] Big and juicy and aromatic and hanging right there. I mean, often in the past, we've had to jump to you know, get a couple of not so very good ones. These were right there. Yeah, and I noticed, and I was very happy to see this, that on the in the the science building is where the lectures happened. It's called the science building.
+
+[1:09:16] Good nice name. Anyway, so you go into it, and right outside of it are a bunch of staghorn sumacs. A bunch. And every year I would go eat some of the staghorn sumac on my way in, be chewing on it, go in, and casually remark to anyone that would listen, why don't you idiots use this staghorn sumac to make drinks? And this year somebody did.
+
+[1:09:39] When I walked there, they had harvested all of the low-hanging staghorn uh sumac things. And step so if any of you, if any of you live in a place that has sumacs, it's a little late, it's late in the year now, it's too late. Next year, uh, you know, when they get nice and red, please harvest them. Please like boil them, you know, into a tea. Make tea with it, serve it as a you alcoholic or non-alcoholic, you know.
+
+[1:10:08] You know, it's an amazing color, it's an amazing kind of acidic uh taste. It grows everywhere. It's free, and everyone has to do their part to get rid of the idea that it's poisonous. Because everyone thinks of the word poison sumac. They're unrelated.
+
+[1:10:27] Do you know how many sumac trees? I've seen innumerable, like biblically innumerable, innumerable sumacs, specifically where I am mostly staghorn, in my life. I can count on zero fingers. I would require zero hands to count the number of poison sumac trees, bushes, whatever they are in the Northeast that I've ever seen. And if it's got a red berry, it's not poison sumac.
+
+[1:10:53] All of those, all of those toxic, whatever they're toxidendrian, whatever in the hell those Eurythrol, like doped poison oak, poison sumac. No one's like, I'm afraid of an oak tree because of poison oak. But sumac, because no one's living with sumacs, they freak out. If it's got a white berry, stay the hell away from it. If it's got a red berry, please harvest it and turn it into tea.
+
+[1:11:14] What do you guys got? Any last uh before you guys head out? I just want to get uh one plug in for the Heritage Gala. Uh it's on Monday, November 11th. And if you go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash gala, you can take advantage of early bird tickets, which are only on sale for the next uh little over a week.
+
+[1:11:33] So yeah, you guys should hang out. Dave and Stasi were there last uh year and it was a good time. We we gotta get off the air. Oh man. Alright, well, thanks everyone for coming in.
+
+[1:11:44] Hope you guys had a good time. I did. Definitely. Thank you. Thank you.
+
+[1:11:50] Cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:12:09] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:12:32] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces.
+
+[1:12:54] Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:29] This episode is brought to you by Nourish and Flourish, a handcrafted, independent publication taking readers on a journey from the soil to the stars. Subscribe today at nourish and flourish dot site. This week on Meet and Three, we are examining the true cost of convenience when it comes to when, where, and how we eat. Dark stores enable workers to eat without any kind of thought to how they're getting their food or how it might have come to be. Doordash, Uber, and Lyft in the past have pledged to spend $90 million to try to exempt themselves from the law.
+
+[1:12] I could be wrong, uh, but I I think there's gonna be significant regulatory pushback on driverless trucks. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. I don't know from when. Teleg 1 from Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwright Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:51] Good. Good. She didn't. I said joined as usual. You say good.
+
+[1:57] You say. You usually say. I didn't though. So you're supposed to say hi. Hi.
+
+[2:04] Yeah, there you go, yeah. We got Matt in the booth. How you doing? I mean, good, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:10] Good. Good. I don't know. This is why you get angry tweets. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:17] So uh we got uh Kat from HRN's here to yell in your ear hole about uh the HRN gala. If you like hearing this kind of garbage that we put out, you're gonna have to come to this freaking gala, apparently. Gotta pay the bills. What? Arabian LA.
+
+[2:31] Are we the f are we like the like the fake NPR? You know how much I hate listening to NPR when they bust out their, if you just gave money. But we don't do that. But we don't do that. Instead, we throw a party.
+
+[2:44] Oh yeah? Yeah. And what's gonna be at this party, Kat? Dave's gonna be at the party. Uh um Dave's gonna be at the party.
+
+[2:54] Wine Santa. They specifically do not allow wine Santa at the Britannical Garden. If you do the party, we'll allow it. Do you remember yesterday last year when Stephen Hoppy from from Puerto Rico, like Santa fell over full of like like vodka? And sleep.
+
+[3:14] Well, because he had already sprayed red wine on the back wall of their fancy like area on their wallpaper. He then face plants and Stephen Hoppy chest like like iron fist punches Santa's chest and Santa's head fell off, and then he like chicken with his head cut off, dead man dancing on the floor, like in his own vomit and vodka. Do you remember this? It was so sad. The best part though was when Nastasia was putting him together, and we have a picture that looks like Santa's groping her because his arms are wrapped around her.
+
+[3:41] It's a it's amazing. So there's a there's a okay, so there's one fella at the botanical gardens who's like a real nice guy, like an event guy. They're all very nice. Sure they are. And then there was one woman also from the event staff who is like just walked in, saw Nastasia's admittedly broke ass wine Santa, in the sense of like put together like a small child would put it together.
+
+[4:04] Anyways, like she looks at it once, turns to nice guy and goes, no. And then walks away. 86 wine. And that's why like wine Santa got for over half the event was in a corner like a dunce, facing the corner. Remember this, Nastasia?
+
+[4:20] Yeah. And yet you want to do it again because you're such a glutton for punishment. I saw a zombie Santa, by the way. That's awesome. All right, listen, before we go any further.
+
+[4:28] Okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, cat, I'll let I'm gonna give you your time. You also have a caller, by the way, just for their sanity, I'm telling you. I will give them their time. Hold on.
+
+[4:38] We have in the studio today one of the all-time intern and intern running crews ever, or some of them. We have Nick Wong of UB Preserve. Hello. Formerly Sam, he has agreed today to actually freaking talk. Don't you do it?
+
+[4:57] Has he? Don't you do it, Nick? Oh my god. Nick is gonna be on permanent 86. I made no such agreement.
+
+[5:03] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, alright, alright. We have Angela Gabots who runs Goldenrod Pastries in Nebraska, where the possibilities are. Endless. Thank you.
+
+[5:13] Although that used to be Nebraska's state motto, they changed it. It's not as good anymore. Well, you had endless possibilities. What do you have now? Uh what it's not for everyone?
+
+[5:26] No. That's really what it is? What you're the Hendrix Jin of states? It has recently changed to Nebraska. It's not for everyone.
+
+[5:33] No, wait. What for real? That is a fact. Oh. So you're like, Hendrick's gin seems to do well by saying that it's not for everyone, so we're gonna do the same thing here in Nebraska.
+
+[5:44] It used to be the good life, which we stick with, but the good life like the rap song? Yeah, well, kind of, but honestly, it's not for everyone, is what they say. Do state motto change as often. They should not change. Possibility is endless, seems better.
+
+[5:58] And then it was Nebraska nice. Oh yeah, Nebraska nice. Remember that? Yeah. That one didn't stick either.
+
+[6:03] Not for that. Not that nice. Not for everyone is what they're saying is, hey, outsiders, get out. Hey, don't come here. That's so crazy.
+
+[6:13] Well, if people keep saying it's just one giant landing strip, ooh. Uh who said that? Excuse you. When you construct a landmass to be a flat table with a slight grade in one direction, that's perfect for landing airplanes. Am I wrong?
+
+[6:29] Why'd you guys do that? Uh what's my choice? Is it true? And I've said this to you a million times, and so you can't go back on it now, that if you go to one side of your state and put a marble on it, it will roll all the way to the other side in a straight line. You might have to come out and give it a shot.
+
+[6:47] I mean, some idiot might put a house in the way, but other than that, it's just gonna like do blue, blue, blue, blue. Marble's not for everyone. Oh, I don't know. Everyone likes marble. You're not the you're not the big ball of twine state, are you?
+
+[6:57] Is that Kansas? Who's got the big ball of twine? Isn't that Minnesota? Minnesota. Big ball of twine?
+
+[7:02] Yeah, the world's largest ball of twine. And and I remember back when I was even more mean spirited than I am today. I was like, here's what's awesome and also terrible about New York. Literally, if we were more popular, right? We could get on here and be like, yo, everyone show up at Central Park in like an hour and a half.
+
+[7:20] And we would have the biggest ball of twine like this. If New York was like, we want to have the world's biggest ball of twine, we could just show up in Central Park, and in like an hour and a half it'd get done. We'd have the biggest ball of twine in the world. And then like Shenzhen would be like, oh no, you don't. And then like the government in China would be like, no, you're gonna, you're twine.
+
+[7:40] Twine. And then like 14 million people would show up and make a ball of twine that actually changes the gravitational pull of the of the earth. You know what I mean? By mandate. Yeah, by mandate.
+
+[7:51] Yeah, yeah. But I think we should not talk about China. Uh I mean, I do business in China, but like I don't, I'm not on in the NBA, so there's no way that they're gonna like stop my pregame from. I felt like I was quietly trying to say not to go. What I'm not allowed to talk about the NBA.
+
+[8:08] We should what's going on? What what is this idea? We have we have Mindy Fun Reason. We have Mindy. Now you you go by Love, like you don't, I always I knew her as Mindy Nguyen before she went by Mindy Love, but it's Mindy Lavoff, so I'm gonna give both.
+
+[8:21] Okay. But Mindy. That's fair. Let's call you Mindy. I like that better.
+
+[8:24] Yeah. So Mindy, uh, you know, Mindy had Nastasia's job before Nastasia had Nastasia's job before Nastasia stopped having that job and became, and I swear to God, this was her official title for a number of years, heir apparent at Booker Dex. Really? Yeah. Heir apparent to the Booker and Dax fortune cookie collection, which is a bunch of stale fortune cookies in a drawer.
+
+[8:50] Because that's what we're worth, people. That's what we're worth. Uh so anyway, uh talk, guys. Oh, wait, caller, caller. You're on the air.
+
+[9:00] Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Also Cat's here, right? Oh, yeah, but she I said I was gonna give her a time, but the caller is sitting there waiting. You never said when she was in the middle of the city. We were also waiting for you to get here, so that's they can't even hear you in stats.
+
+[9:14] You're not talking into the mic. Caller. Hey, yeah, uh, is this my time? Is this the time I get? This is I'm I'm giving you your time.
+
+[9:23] The greatest album ever made. What was it? What did he say? Beyonce, what song was it that Beyoncé did that? Yeah.
+
+[9:32] I'm gonna give you a mic back, but Beyonce, right? I don't know. I don't know anything about Taylor Swift. I don't really care about her time. Go ahead.
+
+[9:39] Okay, so I got a pepper mill question for you. Ooh, I like this. Yeah, so I'm looking for an air apparent to my current pepper mill, which is right now about as useful as a giant ball of swine. Um I'm using the OXO um, you know, kind of standard home kitchen pepper mill. It's got a couple different settings on it.
+
+[9:59] You know, you can figure out like, you know, how how fine or how coarse you want the grinds. Um, but half the time it's just not like the peppercorns are not getting down to where they can be milled. So I have to, you know, keep on switching it to the the coarsest grind and then get some peppercorns down in there, then switch it back to the fine grind, and it's miserable. Yeah, OXO had a really awesome idea. That was those grips.
+
+[10:23] Everything else, meh, it's okay. You know what I mean? Some of their it's hit or miss. In other words, not every I like OXO as a corporation. They made eight zillion dollars.
+
+[10:30] Not everything they do is the best thing on earth. I'm gonna tell you what you need to do. I'm gonna ask you some questions first. Do you have or do you have access to a 3D printer? Uh negative.
+
+[10:41] Okay, it's okay. It's okay. That's not a deal breaker. Now, I don't remember the name of it. I'm gonna tell you what to get, but I don't remember the name of it.
+
+[10:49] So if you go online, you know, you're familiar with Hario, the the coffee grinder company? Yes. Okay. So Hario makes uh a number of handheld coffee mills. One's called the Skererton.
+
+[11:03] Okay. Don't get that one. It's fine, but don't get that one. I mean, you can, but don't get that one. If you look on the internet, there is a knockoff, it's not really a knockoff, but instead of being plastic and hourglass shaped like the Hario, it is kind of cylindrical and stainless steel and tall, right?
+
+[11:22] And it's got like a handle that comes off and on. It's got a hex thing on the top, and it has the same burr set as the Hario. I just in fact, the Hario actually might be better for you since you don't have a 3D printer because it sits better. Those coffee grinders, you've got to make sure that it's not the old style. The old style Hario, you adjust was a nightmare to adjust the grind.
+
+[11:41] But on these new ones, you unscrew the bottom or lift it off on the stainless one that I'm talking about. And there's a little hand wheel that you click that adjusts the pepper grind perfectly. And this coffee grinder is the best, is the best pepper mill I've ever had in my life. It's the fastest, best, most consistent pepper mill I've ever had, and it's cheaper than a freaking Peugeot or a freaking whatever that like Mooli, whatever that, whatever that one that everyone bought, per what's it? What's the one?
+
+[12:09] What's the one everyone used to get like 15 years ago? It starts with a P. No, not the Peugeot, the one with the little flap door in the front that's that looks like a little windmill. Anyway, whatever. It's better than that one.
+
+[12:18] It's the only one I use. And the nice thing is, is that because it's got a bottom container, the problem, the reason I was asking about a 3D printer is what's nice to do is to make a base for just it so it can stand more firmly when it's down. But the good thing about these kinds of things is because they're meant to hold coffee grounds, you can ground a boat ton of pepper into the coffee grind holder and then use it when you're cooking instead of sitting there like a moron over the top of your stock or whatever you're peppering. Yes, I know you should pepper the thing at the end because the pepper just turns into bitterness, but guess what? I like pepper bitterness.
+
+[12:49] So what you should do is add pepper at the beginning of the cook and at the end of the cook. Nick, comments on pepper. I think you're just a bitter person. Uh that's fair, but maybe it's because you got yourself normal bagels and got me a devil's butthole bagel. Named after you, so that bagel was twice as expensive.
+
+[13:08] I thought you liked rainbow bagels. We really splurged for that for you. I will take a picture, people. I will take a picture. Uh you know what?
+
+[13:16] Uh bagels. Did I answer your question by the way? Is the collar still there? I don't know. I think I should.
+
+[13:22] He's gone. So that so uh on bagels. Uh I'm a huge fan over the past five years of the of the other dough base everything that people put out. Huge fan. Sorry again?
+
+[13:37] The pumper nickel everything. Oh the egg everything. I like that. Yeah. I mean, whole weed everything.
+
+[13:43] But the pumper nickel everything? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. On point. On point.
+
+[13:47] Well, if you dip some of these pumper nickel bagels in the leftover everything spices, it looks like we did that for you. I know. Well, years ago, like 20 something years ago when I lived way up town by Columbia. I I think I've told this on air, I walked into um Absolute bagel, which is run by a family that apprenticed at Essa after they came to this country from I believe Thailand. And I said to the guy, you should make a pumper nickel everything.
+
+[14:14] And he just looked at me and started laughing and then walked away. And now who was right? Me. Now who's laughing? Yeah, it was.
+
+[14:23] Well, you should make a what? I don't know. All right. So you actually have yet another caller on the air. Alright, yet another caller.
+
+[14:33] You are on the air. Hey, yeah, hey. I'm calling for some follow-up to give you some follow-up. Okay. Because about two months ago, I called asking for advice on batch cocktails for my wedding.
+
+[14:44] Oh, okay. Did it work the way he stuck? I'm sure you're here. You like any sort of wedding thing. Okay.
+
+[14:48] What did I tell you to do? And was it a terrible idea? Uh you told me to look at you told us to look at punch recipes as guides. You told us to consider using acid-adjusted orange juice in order to keep sort of uh to replace like more volatile lime and lemon juice. I still believe in the what we ended up doing was the punch route.
+
+[15:09] Uh we didn't actually make the cocktails the day before. We just figured out very scaled up recipes for them and had our bartenders make them by the literal bucket load at the event. Uh so then they could pour it out more easily, and it worked out very well. Uh another happy listener, ding ding ding. And the wedding went well, I hope.
+
+[15:26] I mean, not just the cocktails, but I mean everything went okay. It was great. It was a great time. We had karaoke. It was all a good time.
+
+[15:34] And you're still married, so it's sticking so far. So far, so good. Nice. You hesitated. I mean, like, I've Nastasia hates hates when I say this, but my my one major theory, which I'm assuming it's not you.
+
+[15:48] My one major theory is that most people where they end up splitting up later when they were walking down the aisle, knew that something was wrong. They knew that they shouldn't do it as they were going down to do it. But at that point, there's just so many dang people there, so much punch, like already being mixed, that they're like Yeah, you can't go back on the punch. Can't go back on the punch. You already mixed it.
+
+[16:10] You can't put it back in the bottle. The ABV's too low. He's not talking about you, by the way. No. He's saying in theory.
+
+[16:17] Theory. Very good. So I'm happy to hear that that is not the case with you. Yeah. So.
+
+[16:22] Yeah. Also, shout out to Matt for also getting married. Congratulations. Oh, there you go. No, thank you.
+
+[16:27] Nice. Nice. You gave him more of a shout-out than we did. Why is everyone nicer than us? I have a theory.
+
+[16:36] All right. Did you have any uh any other comments? Or you're just uh give giving us the thumbs up on the punch. Great. Oh cool.
+
+[16:42] Alright. Alright, cool. So uh you want to for those of uh people do you ship by the way, Angela? Did what? Does she what?
+
+[16:49] Uh ship. Ship. We all poop. It's a it's a famous book, Mindy. Everybody poops.
+
+[16:58] So let's just stipulate that. Oh, by the way, I see you got sturgeon. Yeah. There's a whole thing here. I hope there's no mouthful.
+
+[17:05] Sable. Oh, sable, sable. I like sable. Doesn't sturgeon, doesn't the cure sturgeon always have, and it's always, no matter who makes it, like a like a weird kind of mold hit at the end, the taste, the flavor. The old mold hit.
+
+[17:19] I wish we had some now to know. Ooh, did I tell you? Did I say on air where I thought I'd where I I thought I shortened my life by like five years by eating something? What? Okay, okay.
+
+[17:28] So for those of you that know and we can talk about this later, because there's a meat study out that we're not gonna have time to talk about it, but I'd like to. Anyway, the one one of the very few things that I believe is actually bad for you is aflatoxin, right? Which is like mold-based toxins, you know, that anyway. So, so like, I brought back from China some sort of like weird like bean cake in a in a plastic McGillakuddy. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[17:52] Like a little, like it looked like a bit of honey thing, but it was like some sort of bean cake. So, anyways, Jen rightly was like, this has been out. Should I throw this away? I'm like, nah, it's sure it's meant to be out. I'm sure it's fine.
+
+[18:05] I'm sure it's good. So, like two weeks later, I see it stashed. As soon as something is stashed, which goes with my other thing, by the way, if you wrap something in your kitchen in aluminum foil, just throw it out. As soon as you wrap it in aluminum foil, throw it into the garbage. Because as soon as you can't see it or you don't know what it is, you're never gonna eat it.
+
+[18:25] Unless you're a label fiend, like my man Nick here, just throw it the hell out. Anyways. So uh it's the same thing. It's like as soon as you put that pasta maker, like in like the back of the third drawer underneath like eight piles of other things, just throw it out. Just throw it out.
+
+[18:40] You're never gonna use it again, anyways. Uh, and the time it takes you to get it and clean it and fix it after that, you could have just gone on Amazon, it would have showed up the next day. You can make pasta, less hassle, less hassle. Anyways, where was I with this? So I see it and I'm like, I'm not gonna do that thing where it just sits on my shelf for like eight years, and then Jen comes up was like, I told you to throw this away, and then it gets thrown away.
+
+[19:01] I'm not and I'm not gonna be that guy again, right? So I'm like, I'm gonna eat it. So I open it, and because I'm a jerk moron, I don't sit there and take a bite of it and enjoy. Well, I I enjoy things differently from you if you're a person, right? If you're a person, you probably enjoy taking a bite of something and then eating it and then taking another bite.
+
+[19:20] We were eating it for spite. I was like, BOM! No, I wanted it, but I was like, bah. So I I chew it, and then as soon as I go goomp, I'm like, ah mold, not like, not like friendly mold, like freaking like toxic, toxic, toxic mold. Now here's the kicker.
+
+[19:38] For those of you that also know me, it's not like I ate lunch today. I mean, today I'm going to. But in general, I didn't eat lunch, right? So I have nothing in my stomach but this toxic mold thing. And I'm thinking I'm saying straight aflatoxin.
+
+[19:51] Like I'm like, I'm I'm F. That's it. That's like carcinogen plus plus plus. So but we it's very hard to make yourself throw up on an empty stomach. So I go back into the bathroom and I shove my fist and my I do I do the I do the twinkle tickle with my fingers.
+
+[20:08] All the way down my throat. I'm like, brrrrrrr! I like bury my hand in the back of my throat and start going with my fingers and then I'm like nothing came out, and so I had to eat the damn, I had to keep that toxic mold in my system, and for all I know, it's still there working its carcinogenic ways right now. Why don't you just gulp a ton of water so that you could like it? I by the time I thought of that, I was so spent from like just that.
+
+[20:39] Whatever that was. And like, oh my god, like, you know, your back of your throat is not meant to have your finger jamming into it. No, it's like worse than that. It's not actually, it's not worse. It's not, I was gonna say it's worse than when you swallow that tortilla and it goes down flat.
+
+[20:54] You ever how many times does that happen to you? That's the worst. Yeah. What? You've never had that like tortilla shard.
+
+[21:01] Oh, a chip. Yeah, yeah. I thought you meant just a soft tortilla. No, yeah. What are you talking about?
+
+[21:07] No, we're talking about the chip. What's wrong with it? Where the chip shard goes, hey, how about it? And just goes down your throat like that. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:15] And you can feel it. Yeah, the whole way. Uh Louise. Anyway, so do you ship? And so what pepper grinder are we doing?
+
+[21:27] So my bakery Goldenrod Pastries currently ships. It's a more complicated process, but we'll be starting e-commerce later this year. So you can follow us at Goldenrod Pastries for shipping up now. How do you like you do many fancy like ice things? Do you have like those pizza tents that you put in it to stop that from getting ruined during shipping?
+
+[21:46] Or do you not ship it? Uh we don't ship the fancy ice things because I had not thought about pizza tents yet. Yeah, pizza tents. Yeah. There's gotta be a way to do it.
+
+[21:52] Where there's a will, there's you. If anyone can do it, Angela, you can do it. Because of the possibilities? Because possibilities are still in your heart because that's the way you grew up endless. P.S.
+
+[22:01] This has nothing to do with anything. Her dad used to run like the the Nebraska beef situation, which was kind of cool. Situation. Just all the beef. He's he made me one of the greatest steaks I've ever had.
+
+[22:12] Is that true? I hope it's true. It was it's the truth. The fat cap on the ribeye tasted like bone marrow. In their house, you ate the fat first.
+
+[22:20] Yeah. Yeah. Uh so why don't you use by the way? I I'm remiss. So Goldenrod Pastries was founded, I don't know, like six, seven, eight years.
+
+[22:28] It was about five. Five, there you go. So uh I was had like fabulous and uh Jeremiah on here, and I was like, what? Your restaurant opened what? Like two years ago, they're like five.
+
+[22:37] I'm like, oh man. So anyway, so like, you know, look, I have no sense of time anymore. Please, please. So uh explain to people what uh inclusive baking is. That's a great question.
+
+[22:49] So we I started my business because I had to go dairy free, and I wanted to find a way to bake for myself after going to the French Culinary Institute and only using dairy for everything. I had to find a way to bake for myself. So I started a blog and started talking about um dairy free baking and realized that people needed gluten free, uh dairy free, vegan, all these things. So I decided to open a business about a year after I founded my blog. And so we are primarily gluten-free, dairy-free vegan bakery in Nebraska.
+
+[23:17] And I would say 75-80% of our customers have traditional diets, which is my favorite part. So we make food that's actually just like really good and not good for gluten-free. Now, here's something that people over the internets can't know. But is uh by the way, can you say is the word a whole okay on family shows? Are we a family show?
+
+[23:41] Anyway, Angela is not one of these people in general who in general. No, she's not one of these people that in general people you would think someone who would have a business like that would not be like you is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, so we like in that's uh you know, a lot of like Dave is trying to pay you a compliment. He's never he's read about compliments. And burning everyone else in the process.
+
+[24:07] No, no, what I'm saying well, no, but in other words, in other words, like you're not like I am believing this kind of health and um my body, my body, my body, my body, and like you know, like like this sort of like completely like weird, obsessed, like self-centered, like you know what I mean. You know, beating your kids into eating a specific thing kind of a person. Best about golden rock pastries. No, so I brought speaking of kids, I brought my kids to see Aunt Angela at her bakery, and we spent every morning there eating everything at the bakery, and these kids had no clue that anything was different ingredient-wise than any other bakery. And I have to say, these are the best buns, like cinnamon rolls, sticky buns.
+
+[24:53] We have the best buns. They have the best buns, buns, buns. We do ship our buns merch. Oh wait, oh wait, merch or buns? Merch.
+
+[25:01] Buns buns buns. Oh, I like that. But the point being that you're such a high quality individual in general that regardless of like what you're putting into it, you're doing it for a quality reason as well. So in other words, like you're not gonna sacrifice quality and produce some sort of dense, gummy monstrosity because you don't care about the I feel that a lot of people who get into this into your segment of the business don't care about food. They care about other things, whereas you care about food.
+
+[25:26] I think that like, yeah, for sure. A lot of people come at it from a health perspective, and I come at it from like a food perspective. And um, you know, we use a lot of sorghum flour for cookies, and I think that sorghum flour actually makes a better cookie than regular all-purpose flour. And so we're making something that I find to be like a lot better than what I was traditionally making. And so we're making really delicious food that happens to be all of these other things, and we're not sacrificing fat or sugar.
+
+[25:51] And you know, I get a lot of questions and interviews about why do you do healthy? Whatever. It's like I don't know what healthy is, but also we're not doing that. Yeah, I don't know what healthy is. That's the only right answer.
+
+[26:00] Like, what is it? I think my question sorghum flour, is it work well in cookies because you don't have to worry about the water uptake because it takes up so much freaking water in like higher hydration things? That is a great question. I'll call back with that question next week. It will be late to answer the question.
+
+[26:17] Yeah, it has a beautiful texture though. Your cookies have that like shortbread crumble, that tender crisp. Yeah, but it's also like very bendy. It's not like it's not, it doesn't shard. Yeah, um, it's really like bendy.
+
+[26:29] Go ahead, guys. What's so funny? So Nick, you are Nick and I for for years are we're a UR people. If that makes sense. Yeah, like as in, oh, that is a fluffy shardy cookie.
+
+[26:45] Yeah, you are a shardy cookie. Yeah. It's funny that like a lot of people don't I guess they didn't grow grow up with it like we did. Yeah, yeah. We are uh They didn't come of age in the UR culture.
+
+[26:55] We have a UR culture. Yeah. We still do it. We still do it to each other all the time. Yeah.
+
+[27:01] So we also like uh we have uh a standard nick Nick and I have a standard question that we ask. If anyone says, so like let's say I was giving a let's say I was giving a talk about some what Nastasi, what kind of garbage stuff do I usually talk about? Carbonation. Okay, carbonation. I'm giving like a like some sort of no hesitation from Nastasia on that one.
+
+[27:20] She's like, I got a list of the garbage. Yeah, all right. So like so I'm giving I'm giving a talk on carbonation, and Nick happens to be the audience, and someone says, any questions? Yes? I have a question.
+
+[27:30] Yes? It's a family show, I can't say it's a good one. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Leave it out.
+
+[27:36] Yeah, are you yeah, it's basically like, are you bleeping? Yeah. It's the internet, it's fine. Are you bleeping kidding me right now? Yeah, yeah, and that's his only question.
+
+[27:43] Then he walks out. Like every time. And I believe at the FCI, you actually did it a couple of times, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:51] Because you can't live a joke like that and not do it. Like Nastasia and I have a thing where we're gonna go in front of a when a band is playing, that we're gonna get near the front, and then right when they're rocking out, I'm gonna flip them the double birds, the double high birds. That means the middle finger. And like sit there, but like you gotta be like smiling and like like banging the head and rocking with the full-on, like, but you're fist pumping the bird into them like you're like you're punching them in the side of the head with the with the birds. We did it!
+
+[28:14] No, we did it. First of all, I don't I didn't at that time, I feel like I could do it now. Didn't know the Phantom Planet guy very well, and we did it to him and he didn't notice. Wait, can you what was that? Can you show us that?
+
+[28:31] Just like this. Like or like uh the the prototypical if I ever went to a Holland Oaks concert, Rich Girl. Dave, this is a radio show, by the way. We're gonna have to put this on Instagram. Yeah, you know what don't matter anyway, Nick.
+
+[28:46] Mindy, what do you got going on? Mindy's what do you think? We actually have a question for Nick now that he has spoken. Oh yeah! UB Preserve, by the way, his uh his restaurant right now, not related to UB40 or any other.
+
+[28:57] What is it? UB stands for what? Underbelly. Underbelly, because there originally was an underbelly, and then this became the preserve, i.e., the original one shut down, and you're preserving the mental attitude of the original, but this is kind of your take on what that thing was. Exactly.
+
+[29:13] Okay. Yes. Alright. Question for Nick. Alright, this is from Travu in the chat.
+
+[29:19] Um he has tried the recipe for the sambar shiitake mushroom texture. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? What? Oh, yeah, go ahead.
+
+[29:29] The ones in the buns, but can't get the texture like in the restaurant. The ones in the buns, Angela, what do you think about the ones in the buns? I love the ones in the buns. You are the one in the bun. Yeah.
+
+[29:39] Yeah. There have been so many potential episode titles for this episode already. You guys are great. Alright, so Nick, come on, talk about some shy talks. So the question is: the texture is not correct because you're following the recipe from the Bomba Fuku Cookbook?
+
+[29:54] Yeah, I think this person, this person is implying that that they you screwed up. Nick did not write the recipe in that cookbook as far as I remember. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, like so. How do you make them, Nick?
+
+[30:06] I don't because you work at UB Preserved. I will I will try to answer your question though. Is the question like they're just too chewy? They're not chewy enough. Never never firm enough.
+
+[30:19] Never firm enough. Are you hitting them on the plancha before you put them in the buns? Like you gotta cook them out a little bit. A lot bit. Those things are cooked.
+
+[30:28] Yeah. Like you pickle them and then you hit them on a plancha and you hit them with more tate. Is it a full pick? That's what happened. Those things do while.
+
+[30:37] You get a little bit of caramelized sugar action from hitting it with some tate on the plancha with the shiitagis. That gives a little bit of crazy. Cassie is similar, a follow-up question, Nick. I will not make you a pork bun. Uh no.
+
+[30:49] Well, for you're not your name's not Sinaido. For those of you that know, like the pork buns at Sambar for years were all about this guy named Sinaido. And Sinaido was like the grandmaster pork bun magician of all time because you could walk into Sonaido and you could like, Sinaido, I need a thousand pork buns now. And he would just sit there and like, like he would just same look on his face, buns, buns, buns, buns, buns, buns, buns. And when they're being made, they all look like Hermit the Frog, like when they're open and they got the pork on it with the cucumber.
+
+[31:24] Sinaido was a genius of pork buns. What happened to Senaido? He got a better paying job. Oh man. Why don't you just want to work the bun station for the rest of your life?
+
+[31:36] You should have paid him anything to have him continue to make buns. I tried. Alright. Did that answer this question? That wasn't my follow-up, though.
+
+[31:44] That wasn't my follow-up. My follow-up was sometime during when Bookering Dax existed, like when it still existed as a bar, before they renovated that area and made Bookering Dax not exist as a bar anymore. You went from the mushroom being vegetarian to the mushroom being not vegetarian. Was that just to spite people? I work at UB Preserve.
+
+[32:13] I had a good time. Did you have a good time when we went to UB Preserve a couple months ago, or did you hate the hell out of us when we were there? Me hating you and me enjoying my time at UB Preserve are two separate things. No, my time with you at UB Preserve. It was a lot of fun.
+
+[32:25] It was it was really a lot of fun having you do the bar takeover for our Southern Smoke spring fundraiser. We actually had our fall one yesterday. Oh, how'd it go? How did it go? It was really good.
+
+[32:35] We had a bunch of like 25 chefs from all over the country and Houston local chefs raised $573,000 for the MS Society and also for our own emergency relief fund that helps out industry workers in need. How much? $500,000, huh? $573,000. Oh, closer to six.
+
+[32:52] Almost six. That next year when we hit six, like, oh yeah, broke our blessers right there. Uh uh, so that was the only time that I've ever been to Houston. What's the what's your Bon Mi shop? It's called like California or something like this.
+
+[33:02] Cali sandwich. Cali sandwich. It's very good. It was good. It's 350 a pop.
+
+[33:05] I forget what was it? What's the one to get mixed? Was it? It's what's the one? It's the Doc Biet.
+
+[33:10] Dak Viette. Very fancy. That's what I think. 350. Super fancy.
+
+[33:15] Super fancy. I tried to go there twice. The head like pate and everything. First time I went in there, not one person was there working. There were people eating.
+
+[33:25] Well, one of those people technically works there. I guess. I don't know. I stood around for a while being like sandwich, sandwich, sandwich, and then I left. Did you say it like that?
+
+[33:35] No. Come on. They've never seen someone from Staten Island there. Oh my god. What?
+
+[33:41] What? Alright. So, shall I answer some of the questions that people were? Mindy, do you have anything to say for yourself? No.
+
+[33:48] No? You didn't notice our our matching shirt. We got some shirts made. Let me see. They're for Aangsu.
+
+[33:55] Oh, nice. Alright, we're gonna talk about Aang Su. Oh, cat, why don't you do your um poor cats okay? So, our gala is on Monday, November 11th at Brooklyn Botanic Art in the Palm House and Yellow Manu Cafe. Like it has been for the past two years, but this year it's gonna be earlier in the year.
+
+[34:11] It will be warmer. And um, we're gonna have Dave making cocktails, Southern making cocktails, Damon making cocktails from Speakeasy. We're gonna have a bunch of restaurants, daily provisions, Marlowe and Daughters, Marta, Mamapukunishi, Park Avenue Autumn. Many, many, many more. Um, go to heritage radio network.org slash gala to get tickets.
+
+[34:33] Early bird tickets are on sale until this Thursday, October 10th. Boom. Speaking of giving you your time, Nastasi has run out, so she has to say goodbye. I'll see you all. Bye, Celsius.
+
+[34:43] I hope so. Tonight, yeah. Yeah, if you want to see this crew, come pester them at existing conditions at some point tonight, but I won't tell you where. Tricks on Dave. So uh question, Dave.
+
+[34:52] Yes. What are two cocktails you would make with gin and mezcal for the gala? That's my question. For the gala? Not for everyone.
+
+[35:00] For the gala. I already got the mezcal cocktail in my head. What is it? I'm not gonna tell you. Why don't I gotta tell you?
+
+[35:04] Come on. Sneak feet, sneak feet. Secret. What about gin? Jin?
+
+[35:08] First of all, listen, when you're making cocktails at an at an event, when I was like a younger person who cared more about like, you know, doing the right thing, I would do shaking cocktails at events. Nick, you used to see me do all did you go with me? Do were any of you guys at the MTV event? No. No.
+
+[35:28] Where I did 1,500 aliminute carbonated drinks. It was the dumbest thing I've ever done. Did they really appreciate them? Uh they drank a lot. That's the one where Nastasi and I distilled a Christmas tree.
+
+[35:39] Yeah. Anyway, real dumb. I don't do that stuff anymore. I'm a big believer in the pump and dump. So, like at events, pump dump, pump dump.
+
+[35:47] So I'm gonna do uh a drink with the mezcal that goes over a rock. It's going to be our wintertime version of the Saratoga Paloma, which is like one of our better seller salty drinks. Uh so this is a winter win winterized uh on the rock version. The gin, I can't tell you what I'm gonna make because I haven't thought of it yet. What do you like with gin?
+
+[36:09] Um I I just like gin, period. So I don't think you need to do anything like crazy to it, right? You mean like pink gin? Do you just want me to throw angle and gin and put it in a cup with no ice and you're just gonna sit there and pick it up? I don't know, you're the professional, not me.
+
+[36:20] I don't know what I would do with gin. Well, what would you I like a Negroni? Yeah, but that requires that you also purchase Kampari and Vermouth. So you're saying we should get Kampari and Vermouth? Well, I'm saying I'm fine with Kampari and Vermouth, but you would need to buy it for the event.
+
+[36:37] Whose gin are we using? Scottish Kings. Alright, and who's uh what's the other thing I'm using? The mezcal sombra mezcal. Same as last year.
+
+[36:45] Okay, all right. So it's a lighter mezcal. So sombra's like lighter, not as smoky. Alright, so cool. I might do a different well, we'll think about it.
+
+[36:51] We'll think about it. Well, think about it. Alright, we'll think about it. All right, all right. HeritageRoynetwork.org slash gala.
+
+[36:56] See you there. And by the way, don't show up at the New York Botanical Gardens thinking that you're gonna go to a party, because that's in the Bronx. And this one's in Brooklyn. Okay. FYI.
+
+[37:05] Thanks, Dave. All right, you're welcome. Bye Cat. Bye. How come it doesn't recognize my face?
+
+[37:10] All right. Oh, I see she's a good salesperson. We'll be back for a half. All right. Nicoleska wrote in and said, My embarrassed friend sent me this picture of her daughter's school photo prop that has been filled to her daughter's specification.
+
+[37:23] Uh to the daughter specification. Uh and uh Nick thought of us and sent it. It says this. It's uh first day of kindergarten sign for the children, and I will read it for you. So first day of kindergarten.
+
+[37:37] I am five and a half years old. I want to be a jerk when I grow up. A jerk, a jerk! That's what it says. It's amazing.
+
+[37:45] It's an amazing photo. Is letting them listen to your show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's amazing. Uh you know, Dax now says, jerk, jerk, jerk, jerk!
+
+[37:54] That's what he says all the time. I'm gonna kill you! Like that, like he says it as a joke, I think. Richard in Indiana writes in hey Dave, Nastasia. She left.
+
+[38:05] She didn't care about your question there, Richard. And Matt's such a little bit. She might have you here on time. Please. She left before one.
+
+[38:11] She left before one. Don't worry, I'm on sauce. This year I decided to start growing super hot peppers for the first time and have tons of pods, which gave me the ability to start playing with different recipes, and I finally came up with something I like. I'm now wondering what it would uh take to turn this recipe into something that is shelf stable. Is it mainly a pH thing, or is there more I have to account for?
+
+[38:31] Do you know of any good resources I could read to get more up to speed on this? Thanks. Resources, I don't know. If you want to stabilize that crap, go to T I C Gums What You Need to Know When You're Formulating Hot Sauce. And they'll tell you like basically it's Xanthan.
+
+[38:43] The answer is Xanthan if you want to stabilize it. No, but there's there's also like for shelf stability, you have to have like grammar okay. Well, so according to TIC gums, the added salt acts as a preservative, right? So you're gonna want the residual salt content at being six about six percent for super shelf stable and uh three percent uh thro uh uh a pH of 3.0, and that's gonna make something stable. And if you're worried about stuff growing, you can do a low temperature pasteurization because nothing is gonna like yeast and stuff aren't gonna grow in that.
+
+[39:13] Uh, but you know, you're not gonna kill the spore forming stuff, but it won't grow at that. However, however, if you look at sriracha, sriracha, right, has a relatively high pH, four, right? It's not an extremely vinegary or acidic uh uh product. It also has a relatively low salt content. It's at 4% salt, which I calculated based on the nutritional panel.
+
+[39:37] It's probably actually less. I'd count it, you know. I took the weight of sodium as uh as 22.9, the weight of uh chlorine as 35.4 to the math based on their sodium numbers, blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, so uh it's uh it's under 4% salt, and so it's a low salt, so they add uh sodium bisulfite to preserve the color, and that's why sriracha doesn't brown out the way a lot of other sauces do. It gets super.
+
+[40:02] I have a bottle of sriracha in our fridge that is a crazy color. Crazy what? Like deep, deep dark red, almost purple. Yeah. The longer you keep that, it gets it changes, but not as much as it would if they didn't like jack it.
+
+[40:16] So you could use ascorbic acid, but it's ascorbic acid gets consumed uh better. And the other thing they use more, the other thing they use is potassium sorbate to inhibit molds and yeast because they're not at a super low pH and not at a super high salt. So a lot of people are like, sorax is not healthy because you contain a lot of salt. And it's what potassium. Exactly.
+
+[40:35] Potassium sorbate and sodium button. Listen, I'm not a huge fan of you of people using sulfates because I think that a lot of times you could taste them if you put it in at the wrong level. And people overdose them, over, you know, add them. Uh but I don't really care about the other stuff. And as for salt, it's actually low in salt.
+
+[40:51] That's why they have to add the potassium sorbate. Jerks! Jerks! Um, hold a second. I'm gonna do this and then hold a second.
+
+[40:59] Joshua uh wrote in about bitter cream. Your bitter cream. I have some catching up on the backlogs of the show since finding cooking issues eight months ago. Finally, I have a question for you. I recently purchased three different pints of the same brand of heavy whipping cream from our local grocery store, and they were all bad.
+
+[41:17] Though not in the lumpy, sour and rancid bad that I've normally You are. It's too easy, yeah. That I've normally seen in other dairy products. It smelled fine, and the immediate taste was okay, but instead of the usual sweet and silky taste that follows, it had a very sharp bitterness that made me think someone dumped bile into the cream supply. The only ingredients in this heavy whipping cream are cream and carrageen, which is unusual.
+
+[41:39] Almost everyone has switched to gel-in. Uh so what was giving this nasty bitter taste? Has it gone bad? Contamination, cow's diets? Uh and when I was thinking about this, I had another thought.
+
+[41:49] Why isn't cream lumpy anymore? It seems that even a few years ago, cream would be lumpy. I think it they're adding gel in now, maybe that's the reason. But anyway, hold on. Uh I will tell you what it is.
+
+[42:01] I looked it up, and all of the information on bitter cream is from like 1919 and 1920. So I'll give you the cause of bitter milk from the Pacific Rural Press, volume 97, number 11, 15 March 1919. The cause of bitter milk. Every year this season, we receive many inquiries regarding the cause and remedy for bitter milk and difficult churning. There are two different kinds of bitter fermentation.
+
+[42:24] One that is present at the time of milking, and one that does not appear until the milk has been left standing for uh a longer period of time. Also, the bitter milk is usually more prevalent in the winter than during the summer months. That is because low temperatures, the bacteria which cause bitter milk develop faster than the bacteria which cause milk to sour. So what you're having is a bacterial growth going on in your fridge, right, that can override lactic acid bacteria that's not making it uh sour, but is breaking down the protein and possibly also the fat. So you're gonna have protein breakdowns that are bitter and possibly also lipid uh oxidation products that are making it bitter and also weird on your tongue, which might give you a biley thing.
+
+[43:02] And it says at the end of that article, this very often happens with cream, and under such conditions it will not churn readily because the abnormal fermentation has hardened the fat globules so they will not stick together. Uh so there you have it from 1919. And there's uh some more information you can look that's more recent, but why do you need more? Oh, what you get this. There's a fault in cream.
+
+[43:21] You ready for it? Bitty cream. Bitty. It's caused by this bitty cream and sweet curdling. Bitty cream, noun.
+
+[43:30] Uh sweet cream curdled by bacteria that survived pasteurization. Compare with broken. Bitty brings up my favorite Alan Jackson song, Little Bitty. It's alright to be little bitty. Little hometown or big ol' city.
+
+[43:43] Might as well share. Might as well smile. Life goes on for a little bitty while. Uh it's really the only Alan Jackson song that I listened to. I will never forget this conversation.
+
+[43:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, so it's too cold. Wait, one of the things that's the one. It was too cold. Well, it's it's it's too cold for the other stuff to grow, but over a long period of time of storage, as cream gets stored for a lot longer than milk usually does, because we don't use it as quickly, even at the store, right?
+
+[44:06] It stays a long time in the store. It could be growing these other bacteria that cause it to go bitter. I'm gonna say one thing before we talk about the reason you guys came here because Matt, do I got five minutes? Of course you do. Ah, cool.
+
+[44:16] So uh Thanks, Matt. Nice. This weekend, this is classic, right? So you guys know Booker always threatens to Booker hates the birthday song, right? Why not?
+
+[44:27] Yeah. So, like, but he always threatens, he asks every year for his birthday, he wants uh pepper spray. So that at his birthday party, if someone sings happy birthday, he can pepper spray them in the house. I'm like, first of all, don't use pepper spray in the house. I was like take him outside.
+
+[44:41] But he practices, so you're like, you'll walk up to him and be like, hat shh, and he makes the he pulls out his hand and makes the shh noise. Right before you even get to the pee. Hatch shh. And he like does it. Yeah, he's all psyched.
+
+[44:51] He's so ready to pepper spray people. And we're like, Booker, that's being a bad host. You're being a bad host. And then he's like, what if I put a sign outside that says, if you come into the house and sing happy birthday, you will get pepper sprayed. I was like, That seems fair.
+
+[45:06] Well, I was like, but that's also unwelcoming. That's unwelcoming. That's like those signs that say, I'm gonna cut your bike off of my fence. No, just cut the bike off the fence because the bike doesn't belong on your fence. I feel like that's a fair request.
+
+[45:20] No, but that that is a fair request, but you're not like, or I will pepper spray you. I don't know, she might. Depends. Anyway, point being that I got to see what it was like when someone actually did that because Dax was doing his track and field event at Van Courtland Park, which is cool, actually. Van Courtland Park, never been there before.
+
+[45:37] Uh 242nd Street, for those of you that don't know it, i.e., way up in the Bronx by Riverdale. Anywho, so didn't you used to live way the hell up there one point eight? No, you know. Uh yeah. Yeah, more songs going through my head now.
+
+[45:48] Anyway, so like, issue is there's Van Courtland Park has this big thing called the parade grounds. There's like a hundred schools there, so it's like chock full of kids and like coaches and adults, and there's a finish line where all the races end, but then they start all different places. So I'm I didn't get to actually witness it, which I'm forever upset for because I had to be that idiot who posted myself along Dax's race so I could like say, go, Dax, go, and there was still an opportunity for it to help him speed up. You know what I mean? So when I find when he finally finishes the race and I go back, there's ambulances and cop cars everywhere.
+
+[46:19] Now, luckily, not it was before Dax's actual race, so he wasn't involved. But some like, and this is some like California level craziness, right? No offense. Uh lady goes, ah, get out of my space, pulls out pepper spray and pepper sprays all these kids at the finish line. And the kids are like, ah!
+
+[46:48] And I'm sitting there and the coach is telling me this, and I'm like bent over, laughing, like crying, not from pepper spray, but from laughing that this actually happened in the real life. She's like, What's funny? What's funny? I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, it's not funny. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:04] Oh my god. I went home and Booker's like, yeah, that's what they get. Wait, was she a mom? Who was the woman? Unclear, but I doubt it.
+
+[47:18] I think she's just like a lady that hangs out at the park and was like, ah! My space! Wow. It's wrong. It's wrong.
+
+[47:28] See, she needs to move to Nebraska where there's more personal space. Like I feel if you need. You have personal space. I don't know. I feel if you need your personal space, New York City, not a good place to live.
+
+[47:38] I feel like Houston, you give people personal space. Nick, can you tell the story about your uh was it your your sous chef who went out to visit a stockyard? A stock show with his Houston City boots on. Oh, our uh culinary director, Nick Fine, went to the rodeo and was like walking through the uh like you know, oh showing your cattle stuff like that if you want to buy some. Walks by this cowgirl.
+
+[48:05] She looks him up and down, and this guy, he is from Texas, but he is very much a city slicker. She looks him up and down. This is a real cowgirl, like breaks bowls, spits on his boot and says, You're in the wrong place, city slicker. No! Well, more colorful language, but this is a family show.
+
+[48:24] What? Amazing. I would marry her immediately. That's Nick's type of girl, right there. Man.
+
+[48:31] Spit on your ball. Well, that's a strong. That sounds incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, so welcoming.
+
+[48:41] That's welcoming. Uh all right, so why don't you explain why don't you explain uh your your shirts and uh what's going on? So we had a friend, we all had a friend, and I I think you spoke really nicely about Aang Soo. Was it last week? Week before?
+
+[48:57] Uh a couple weeks ago. Yeah. It's the last show I listened to. Um, so we had a great friend, and he I think changed the way all of us think about food and think about cooking. Um, and he was wildly inappropriate.
+
+[49:14] Oh my god. Flat screen TVs. If there was a line that you shouldn't cross, I always used to say he would pull vault across that line. Yeah, he wouldn't be able to see the line anymore. Yeah.
+
+[49:28] Yeah. Destroyed the line. Destroyed the line and just the questions he would ask you. Because he was actually curious about the answer, were just they would not fly today. Absolutely.
+
+[49:39] They would no longer be appropriate questions. But he never meant it offensively or to make you uncomfortable. No, but you're saying in a way it's gonna make people think, well, I wouldn't have liked this guy. No, no, no, no. It's not like that.
+
+[49:48] He was not for everyone, let's just put it in. Yeah, he was not for everyone. He's a Nebraska. He was like, he was like Nebraska, isn't that for everyone? He was he but he was one of the greatest, uh greatest human beings that you could ever meet, and he did amazing things for people.
+
+[50:02] Uh and I always tell this story, you know, when Dave and I were a two-person team in a closet at the French Culinary Institute. Um, Angela and Eng Su would come in every day after pastry, you know, with these giant trees of what they baked that day and the greatest stories of the pastry chefs and what they learned that day and the adventures they went through. Ingstro and I had a it, you know, it's a pretty intense time. Um and he went through some stuff when we were in school together. I was working for Dave.
+
+[50:35] I had another internship, and I remember specifically he would call me in the morning to make sure that I was like up because I had had really long nights, and he wanted to make sure I was gonna show up to school and that I was awake, and he would say, Wakey wakey, time to bakey. And I would get to class and he would have breakfast waiting for me. And um, one of the most genuine uh Nick saw him most recently at his restaurant in Singapore. You want to tell you want to talk about uh like his Nasi Lamach and all I never got to have it. So his restaurant in Singapore is called the Coconut Club, and they just moved up to a larger location up the street, apparently.
+
+[51:12] Um his I guess signature dish, but it's more of like a national dish of Singapore if they have one because there's so many different cultures there. But uh it's a Nasi Lamak. It's uh like a fried chicken leg, some coconut rice, some fried anchovies, some peanuts, a fried egg. Did I say that? Some peanuts.
+
+[51:30] Not yet. But it's like you can get it for like three bucks on any hawker stand, and he's charging like 1250 a plate. Apparently, that thing's up to almost 20 now. Yeah. But he would source the best rice, the best chicken, the best coconuts.
+
+[51:45] Like he couldn't find good enough coconuts, so he opened up like a coconut farm. He started his own coconut farm so he could get the best quality product for his food. And like beyond that, it was more of uh he could see, you know, all these hawker stands have these great things, but no one's teaching anybody. You got these 60, 70, 80-year-old masters that are one dish, but they don't let anyone else learn. So, like when they pass on, that's it.
+
+[52:09] So he wanted to make the best version of this, show all these other people how to make it and be like, cool. Now you go out in the world and you do it too, or like you find like a way to represent yourself with a specific dish and push push Singapore forward in terms of like it's not just hawker stands and hawker centers or like crazy Michelin-star restaurants. There is a middle space for you too. You don't have to be an 80-year-old master to make this. You can I'll teach you how to do this so you have these skills to take with you after you leave here.
+
+[52:40] Also, like he was interesting. Was that he was always he was uncompromising, but not in a jerk a-hole way about it. He just He knew. He just was like, you know, he wanted it to be good. Yeah, he wanted it to be the best.
+
+[53:02] And he didn't want to just shortcut if there was a better way to do it. We were I was looking through our recent um conversations, and uh it was about a year ago, so not that recent, and he was telling me how much he wanted to do for his staff and everything he wanted to do to make their lives better and how hard it was and uh what how taxing it was on him, but just how much he wanted to do for them. And um then so I'm working on this cookbook right now, and I was texting with Mindy and Nick, and some things were getting really challenging with my editor, and all of these things were happening, and I app was right after Aang Su passed, and I could hear his voice in my head of this uncompromising personality of what he would do and the lengths that he would go to to do what he knew was best. And it again, this will make him sound like a jerk, and he really wasn't, but um he would say F you man, and I just had this voice in the back of my his voice in my head is like this really specific voice, and he would say F you man and um and just laugh. And like um I thought about him and I was like, you know what?
+
+[54:03] That's exactly what we all just need to remember, and it's not in a jerk way again, it's this uncompromising um personality to do what you know is and it wasn't easy for him. No, it wasn't never easy for him. No, he didn't have an easy background, you know, and and for him to be able to stand up and say, no, F you man, I know what's right, and I'm gonna keep doing what's right. And I think he had that same conversation with you too, Nick, right? About how much he cared for the people who worked for him.
+
+[54:33] Yeah, yeah. It's just like I get a lot of crap for serving a $12.50 nice and luck, F U man. You're making uh uh nice and luck for the tourists and not for like F U men, I don't care. Well, it's like the whole sort of like, I'm gonna do what I think is right, is it his family? Was it his uncle or his dad that went to jail?
+
+[54:50] His dad went to jail for a long time for not bending in the Cantonese newspaper he was working on in Singapore, right? And was like, nah, I'll go to jail. No, and house arrest for like the rest of his life. Yeah, for like 40 years or something like that. Yeah.
+
+[55:07] Comes from a long line of F U man? F U man. But I think he's uh, you know, to kind of sum it all up, I think that he is he was what's right in our industry and in the world in general, somebody who really wants to make a difference for staff or the community and make food that's wholesome, cultural, delicious, and uncompromising, and really keeping people at the forefront. And I think that's what's what was one of the really really special things about him. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[55:35] Now that's our shirts. So if you can see. Oh, yeah, our shirts are F U man. Oh, that's what that is. And uh with some dingle-dangle coconuts.
+
+[55:42] What do you think are the coconuts? Are they are they supposed are they suggestive? We I don't know, you're projecting onto this. Yeah, I'm projecting. We didn't design it, but we felt that someday if you meet me in private, ask me what Aang Su Ask me about what Aang Su said about uh what every child in Singapore has to learn to do with flat screen TVs.
+
+[56:05] Definitely a private conversation. That is a very private conversation. I don't think I know this one. I'm gonna ask you after we get off the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[56:12] Um also listen, this business, if you're in this business professionally, I'm sure a lot of businesses are like this. But uh, you know, he started a restaurant, was working on another one. He was uh very, very driven, um, you know, had a lot of stuff going on internally, a lot of us do. Um it's very, very hard to start a business. It's very hard to do a good job.
+
+[56:42] You always have outsiders beating on you. You have to make people feel good in your place. You have to do like the best you can and guide people who maybe don't always see it the way you do. You can't lose them, you can't lose your crew. It's very high stress.
+
+[56:57] It's a it's a lot of problems. It's a lot to go into this business and to try to do it at that level. Please, let's take care of each other out there. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[57:22] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[57:37] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[57:59] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Vicky Stevens writes, we weren't happy with the way things turned out last season, so I made the call. Weed man's been a total game changer. Fertilization, weed control, the whole nine yards. Our lawn has never looked better. The neighbors are so jealous they avoid me at the supermarket.
+
+[0:20] It's fantastic. Go to Weedman.com. Enter promo code Green and get one free service. This episode is brought to you by Root Eleven Potato Chips. Made with a secret recipe and superior ingredients.
+
+[0:36] Their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. To learn more, visit RT11.com. This week on a special bonus episode of Meet in Three, we find out why the bacon, egg and cheese, that classic bodega sandwich, is popping up on menus of New York's trendiest restaurants. We did a few iterations of it, and I was trying to fancify it. We tried the sausage egg and cheese, and then we tried to put shamula sauce on it.
+
+[1:09] We used feta cheese, and we just like taking ingredients of the Mediterranean, if you will, and try to infuse it. But uh for me it was like a car wreck. Tune in to hear about the wild journey of the bacon, egg, and cheese. From deli to fine dining on Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:56] How are you doing? Good. Yeah? Uh-huh. Yeah.
+
+[1:57] Matt and Booth, how you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah? Anything happened in the past week when we weren't here? Uh no, the place just shuts down while you're not here.
+
+[2:05] Oh, you didn't cook anything good, eat anything good, stab anyone, nothing? No, I went down to Shenandoah. Uh, I was looking for bear. He was gonna cook up some bear, but do they eat bear there? Is it bear season?
+
+[2:19] No, you're not allowed to eat the bears anymore. But they're supposed to be delicious. That's that's the lore. Um, ding ding. Young bear is supposed to be delicious.
+
+[2:27] Uh Nastasi and I have had old bear, like killed at the wrong time of year, and not good. Remember that? Yeah. It was not good. Where remember when we we bought some stuff from this guy?
+
+[2:40] But then Dave cooked a whole raccoon, right? And they were giving the this is at the FCA, they were giving the tour to a new potential student, and they would take him around to each of the kitchen classrooms, and Dave's sitting there with this whole raccoon. I think he had already deep fried it or something. Yeah, it was nasty to me. And then the kid, the stit potential student was like, what's he cooking?
+
+[2:59] And the tour guide was like, I don't know, baby. That's true. That's a true, that's a true story. I I don't think those people shelled out the money to go to the SCA. What age is raccoon delicious?
+
+[3:15] Uh I don't, not whatever we had. So, like, you know, it turns out we bought from this guy, this guy, I'm not even gonna say his name, but uh, he, you know, on his website, he was like, oh, everything is responsible, blah blah, USDA, like legal and everything. And then I talked about it on the blog, and a bunch of people, you know, wrote in and were like, a PS, this guy was arrested once for doing like illegal stuff. I mean, it's the kind of stuff where I was like, I'm never gonna order from that guy again. So we never ordered from him again.
+
+[3:47] I mean, there's an there's another outfit out that sells kind of like super rare exotic meat, but the problem with exotic meat that's not like if an animal's being raised for food, like in general, like it's slaughtered at the at you know, at a time anyway, that has some relationship to an economic value of when the either meat is good or in some cases, you know, wolf or sheep, whatever. But there's a reason why an animal was killed at that particular time at that stage in its life. A lot of the exotic stuff is like, I gotta go kill some raccoons now. So who knows? You know what I mean?
+
+[4:20] Or no, well, it's like, you know, like I got this lion, and I swear, like I got this lion, and uh it's eating me out of house and home, and it turned mean. I mean, who knew lions would get big, right? I mean, who could have predicted that that little cub would turn into a giant meat-eating dangerous animal that I have to have in a cage outside my house? Who could have figured that out? You know what I mean?
+
+[4:43] And so then they sell it to you know, this guy that we don't buy anymore, and then they, you know, it's kind of horrible, it's a horrible thing. So it's all these so the bear is probably an old circus bear, is what Nastasia is saying. Definitely, yeah, probably. You know what I mean? So it's like not not anything you want to support, but I will say that uh I've heard from hunters that you know, bear at the right time of year, the right age is delicious, but I have not had it that way.
+
+[5:10] And you can get, I think, commercially prepared and raised bear in in Japan, at least up in Hokkaido. You know, they're kind of famous for it, but I've never had bear. I was, you know, the one time I went to Japan with Nastasia, we didn't have bear. No. No.
+
+[5:22] Not that we know of. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so you know, I'm waiting, so I don't know. The answer is I don't know. I know that the raccoon I had, not delicious.
+
+[5:31] The beaver, delicious. Delicious. Uh I heard someone else on the internet bad mouthing uh beaver. Uh, hello, internet. I disagree with you on this point.
+
+[5:41] So uh somebody is on the phone with I think a piece of information, not a question. All right. Uh hello, caller on the air. What is your piece of information? Hey Dave, it's Andy in Chicago Land.
+
+[5:52] How are you doing? Doing all right, doing all right. What's up? Good. So as a fellow lover of most things, Neil Diamond, I wanted to defend Cracklin' Rosie.
+
+[5:59] Ooh, get her good on board, yeah. Legitimate song. Yeah, totally. So it's um the legend is that Cracklin' Rosie was this cheap sparkling rose wine that he heard of and wrote a song based on it. So it's a poor man's lady because it's cheap, you know, don't eat uh whatever.
+
+[6:15] What was the other thing? Oh yeah, it's store-bought woman. It's a bottle of booze. So you can go on loving it and not feel too bad about that song. Even though, you know, I think there's some other questionable Neil Diamond tracks.
+
+[6:25] That's it, like what's the what's the questionable one? LAS FINES on the time. Well, you know, the one that we all love to hate, and even even me, you know, uh Sweet Caroline? Yeah. Sweet Caroline.
+
+[6:36] Is it problematic from a lyrical standpoint or is it problematic because it's an awful song? Because everyone goes bah bah like what's the that's terrible. I mean part of my family show. Family show. Yeah, family show.
+
+[6:48] Yeah. Um but uh yeah, so I mean that's terrible, but also I think I heard that he wrote it after being inspired of a young Carolyn seeing a young Carolyn Kennedy uh on the cover of a magazine and it sort of sexualized her. So I don't know if that's really a problem. I don't know if that's really true, but how old was she he at the time? Like what was the spread?
+
+[7:08] Oh, you know, I mean, she was like, you know, pre-teen. Oh, gross. Oh, disgusting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, I don't know if that's true.
+
+[7:16] Don't quote me on that, but you can well you can you can quote me on it as long as you say it's, you know, it's not authoritative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, he's still alive, we could ask him. You know what Nastasia's favorite is? Traveling was it, Traveling Brothers uh wait wait uh brother loves traveling salvation show traveling salvation show that album is the best it's as one of his first albums I think and it ends actually with Sweet Caroline but uh yeah that's a banger you should listen to the whole album Nastasi enjoys any situation where you physically have to lift the old ladies that's right yeah pack up the babies everyone goes you know you guys have all seen Hot August night right to the album I mean listen to the album oh my god oh yeah the album I know I think yeah that's what I meant that's all I meant um yeah so all right well that's it let me ask you one more question before you go how damaging was that wretched jazz singer thing to his legacy you know I don't even know I'm a fan of basically everything that happened around Hot August night and before so I don't even really know what do you think I don't know I don't think I mean like that was just a terrible movie situation was that his only movie was a nightmare it might have been yeah I I've never seen it I don't think I ever will um I just like to think of him as you know his his in his prime years in the you know late 60s early 70s and just kind of leave it at that time I used to sing the uh LA's uh Fine but it ain't home New York's home but it ain't mine no more to my sister in law Miley when she moved out to San Francisco, she was like, You're a jerk.
+
+[8:48] She moved back though. Yeah, it's a good one yeah that's a great song. Great song. Anyway, thanks so much for that information on SNL you ever seen that? No.
+
+[9:00] No. Oh my God. So good. He tells the quote unquote stories behind his songs. You gotta check it out.
+
+[9:05] I like I like Will Farrell and I like Neil Diamonds. And that seems like I've won twice. Check it out. Yeah. Yep, you certainly have.
+
+[9:12] Cool. I appreciate that. All right, Dave. Yeah, take it easy, man. Thanks, sir.
+
+[9:16] Oh, and on the subject of non-cooking related stuff, we'll just get out of the way now. I'm building a laser projector. That's just has nothing to do with anything. But I bought this crazy laser on eBay, a visible laser, and I was like, oh, it's it's only 800 milliwatts. How bad can that be?
+
+[9:32] Oh my god. When I turn that thing on, Nastasia, I accidentally burned through one of the wires because the beam was crossing the wire. And then I realized, thank God my wall is white. Or like I want to lit my wall on fire. It is crazy.
+
+[9:47] So dumb. What laser projector for what purpose? So I had this idea that like, wouldn't it be nice if your laser pointer could work like a highlight or an underliner where you could just underline something with your laser pointer? Yes. Yeah, they said I'm I'm building that.
+
+[10:07] Does it underline the thing by searing its way into the wall? No, no, no, no. When you're scanning it at a high kind of frame rate, you see the point the dot's not supposed to stay anywhere. There's two, there's two mirrors, galvanometer mirrors, they're like, you know, like we're going back and forth, and they trace the beam all over and you turn it off and on. So it's like spread out.
+
+[10:28] You know what I mean? Like it's not like a dot that you're sitting there. I just wanted one. Okay. Okay.
+
+[10:37] Ah, dog is night. Anyway, uh, so the uh anyway, I will I don't know. So if you're gonna go buy a laser on the internet, just you know, be careful. I mean, everyone says be careful. I knew to be careful.
+
+[10:50] Like I had the glasses and everything. I wasn't gonna shine it in my eye, but I was like, who thinks 800 milliwatts less than a watt is gonna ignite stuff in your house. Dax was pretty stoked. Dax walked up there with like matches and was just like lighting match after match after match with it. I was like, Robert from the chat claims that you're going to have a very tough time finding a lens that the laser won't burn and distort.
+
+[11:14] Oh, you're not we're not using a lens. So it's like it's literally just mirrors, and it's not like a high power and it's not uh IR. It's it's all visible, it's all visible light, and it's just mirror bouncing. So it you know, you and it all this stuff used to be fantastically expensive, but now for like $70 or less if you're willing to get it direct from China, you can get like dual calibrated like XY uh galvanometers, and uh, you know, you like a and the laser, you buy a uh you buy a an RGB laser now, also cheap, where they've already like aligned all of the all of the mirrors so that the beams are coincident, and it all comes in a box. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:54] So you buy like the laser box and it's got you know TTL, which is just you know logic inputs for turning the individual lasers on, you put that onto a microprocessor, the microprocessor drives a DAC, which is a uh digital audio uh thing, and then you just put that directly into the input of the drivers for the mirrors, and they sit there tracing stuff and you're done. It's like, you know, a little bit of programming on an Arduino, and you know, uh, and you're done. The hard part is getting uh is building the little uh nine axis the the nine axis degree of freedom like hand thing that I'm gonna use as the uh drawing thing. Well, whatever, this has nothing to do with cooking. This has nothing to do with cooking.
+
+[12:29] All right, uh, and also nothing to do with my job. And now Nastasia's mad because she thinks this is the new civil war because she's thought that I was spending all my time instead of working on our business, working on uh reading Civil War. What? Since when? Since when me and how's that Sous vide book going?
+
+[12:50] Oh, uh you know what? Yes. Is it going? I mean, ish. I w in fact, the classics in the field for the first time ever, the classics in the field is going to be something A, related to the to the book, and B, I don't have it with me.
+
+[13:03] I forgot to like get it or bring it with me or anything like that, anyway. We should do this because it's what's this? Oh, uh wait, wait, we were still talking about weird animals, right? Or we're done talking about weird animals. So raccoon bad.
+
+[13:17] Yak, great. Loved yak. Yak delicious. I would eat yak again and again. Uh beaver good, bear bad.
+
+[13:26] Uh guinea pig, very good. Remember when they brought it in and we were doing whole deep-fried cooey, the guinea pig? Yeah. That was very good. Cappy bearer, good.
+
+[13:35] Uh crocodile, we never had a, or alligator, we never had a good one, right? We had that in Florida, right? And it was terrible, right? It was garbage. Yeah.
+
+[13:42] I mean, or I've had it, you know, commercially prepared. Whatever. Anyway. Uh how did that come up? How did the weird animal thing come up?
+
+[13:51] Oh, yeah. In Shannon in Shenandoah. Listening to uh listening to John Denver before he moved out to uh freegan uh John Denver. What is the fact? Oh, Nastasia's famous.
+
+[14:03] Oh, I bought you. If we're doing this chicken cannon thing. I think we're doing the chicken cannon thing. Do you do we have do we have confirmation we're doing that? Not from your brother-in-law.
+
+[14:12] Anyway, uh, I bought you John Denver's Christmas album, so we can play it. But what does it have to do with the chicken gun? Just in general? Alright, yeah. So Nastasia, again, not cooking related, but Nastasia's favorite.
+
+[14:24] David is yours. We both. It's not, it's yours. You found it out, and you're the one that like fine. This is a classic Nastasia saying that something that is her favorite is somebody else's favorite because she's like, I'm a little embarrassed that it was.
+
+[14:37] Oh, speaking of a little embarrassed. I need people to tell me what they think the coolest karaoke place they've ever been to is. Nastasi and I, I've gone for the first time in my life to karaoke, so I'm in NeoPhyte. And I found that the system was garbage. So I want to hear from people like supposedly in LA there's a bunch of good ones.
+
+[14:56] Really? I spoke to Damon Harjoe Rogo at the bar, and he says that there's some good ones in K-town here that have like effects and stuff like that. He's gonna take us to one of the good ones anyway. I want to know what like the most like uh like tricked out. Wait, Carol the John Denver.
+
+[15:12] So John Denver. I mean, John Denver, voice of an angel, right? Acted in many famous versions of Oh God, Oh God, Oh God, you devil, like all of those things with George Burns. Uh troubled men. Anger, deep-seated anger.
+
+[15:29] I mean, among other things, right? I mean, there's like anger issues. Well, I mean, that's what we're talking about now. Yeah. But went through, you know, a nasty divorce, nasty divorce.
+
+[15:39] Where he had to give her half of everything. And shows up, walks up, and by the way, you should in your mind, I want you to be singing uh Grandma's Featherbed, which is uh one of his, you know, kind of good songs, right? You like that song, right? I don't know it. Didn't didn't get a lot of sleep, but we had a lot of fun on grandma's feather bed.
+
+[15:58] I don't know it. I don't know it. Anyway. Matthew, you know this song? Saucy, no.
+
+[16:02] Yeah. Uh, and at the end there's some muffled words about the girl down the lane. Anyway, it's a great song. Go listen to it. Uh goes into his four post featherbed.
+
+[16:14] Post divorce. Or during the divorce bed. During the divorce, and was like, half! Heff! Pulls out a chainsaw.
+
+[16:27] Cuts the bed in half and walks out. Now you're never gonna hear a John Denver song the same. Didn't get a lot of sleep, but we had a lot of fun on grandma's featherbead. Anyway, trying to follow the court's order. It's half.
+
+[16:42] Half. This episode is brought to you by Root Eleven Potato Chips. From the moment Root 11 dropped their first batch of chips back in the early days of 1992, they understood their destiny as a high quality producer. Instead of succumbing to the frenzy of mass production, they took advantage of their small size and made chipping a personal art form. The payoff was immediate.
+
+[17:08] An incredible potato chip. With a secret recipe and superior ingredients, their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. In this world of uncertainty that we live in, Route 11 potato chips believe comfort food can be just that. Know where your food comes from. To learn more, visit RT11.com.
+
+[17:30] Join Heritage Radio Network on Monday, November 11th, for a raucous feast to toast a decade of food radio. Our 10th anniversary, Bacchanal, is a rare gathering of your favorite chefs, mixologists, storytellers, thought leaders, and culinary masterminds. We'll salute the inductees of the newly minted HRN Hall of Fame, who embody our mission to further equity, sustainability, and deliciousness. Join us to explore the beautiful palm house and yellow magnolia cafe at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, where you'll taste and imbibe to your heart's content. And bid on once-in-a-lifetime experiences and tasty gifts for any budget at our silent auction.
+
+[18:16] Join the party. Tickets are available now at Heritage Radio Network.org/slash gala. Uh okay. So in from Long Island. Long Island?
+
+[18:28] Mm-hmm. Strong island. Does not wish to be identified. By the way, I want some people to write in. I know you write things to like words of encouragement to Nastasia about how terrible I am.
+
+[18:38] I've seen them. Uh I don't spare you any emails. But but will you please? This is a Long Island thing. Will you please write into her and tell her that before it's too late, she should allow herself to see a Billy Joel concert.
+
+[18:54] Please. Please. Why should you deny yourself this concert? I thought we were supposed to go. We were supposed to get tickets or like free tickets.
+
+[19:06] That's the only thing. How was that gonna happen? You said you knew somebody from MSG, anyway. When I was like 20, I knew the guy. You told me like like last year.
+
+[19:14] Anyway, whatever. Please enjoy the following. We have a striped bass filet that was caught this Sunday, but that's frozen or something, right? We can't eat that. That's for you to take home.
+
+[19:23] Okay. Uh masa, also not cooked, so we're not gonna eat it now, but it's made with macienda corn. Uh, and does this listener does not wish to be identified. No, Kevin from Long Island. Oh, Kevin, I think they signed a Capri Sun.
+
+[19:35] No, that's his email, and don't Oh, not what do you think about that beverage, Capri Sun? I love them. I have one flavor, Redberry Blast. Redberry Blast. So good.
+
+[19:45] That man, you and Booker, same exact human thing. Do you know that, like, uh, you know the company Honest Tea? Yeah. So they basically were like, the kids, they had kids apparently. This is the story that Booker tells me.
+
+[19:57] So it's filtered through Booker's mind. And I didn't bother researching myself. They had kids, and the kids were like, yo, we don't like tea. Make something for us. And they came out with honest kids.
+
+[20:10] This is a marketing genius thing because it's fundamentally capri son, and it just says honest kids on it. And so parents are like, it says honest kids, so I don't know. This box of sugar and water is better than the other one. And so they pound honest kids like the end of the world is coming. Jeez.
+
+[20:27] Yeah, Capri Sun. People are working on the Capri Sun uh cocktails. That's the thing. That's the thing coming up. Well, if like when you're on the beach.
+
+[20:35] No? No. No? What do you think of you like canned wine though? Yeah.
+
+[20:41] If in a pinch, we drink it. Well, I mean, like it's not like if you had a cooler and the cooler was full of beers and then rose wine, what are you gonna go for? Yeah. Do they put carbonated wine in cans? Sometimes.
+
+[20:55] Is that good? Lightly, no. You wish it was good though. Yes. That way you could be pounding.
+
+[21:01] Although you would get effed up hard. I get so. If if people that's the thing, is like they're gonna put it in a beer size can. They should put it in like a wine glass size can. They have like this thing called house wine that comes in a can and it's like it's like three glasses of wine, and how is that hey, sit there with a beer can and drink three glasses of wine.
+
+[21:23] Wide mouth. You know what I mean? Yeah, and if you're like keeping up with because you know you like kind of trying to up with your friends, yeah. Yeah, they should come in like a V8 can. Yeah.
+
+[21:34] That size. Yeah. Or slightly larger. Anyway, whatever. Uh partially dried uh Fuyu persimmon.
+
+[21:41] Do you like persimmon? Mm-hmm. I had some delicious persimmon from Korea that was given to us by one of uh Jen's uh my wife's workers, and then it went moldy. It was still good though. Not moldy like the mold we talked about before.
+
+[21:53] Moldy, okay, moldy. Uh summer sausage. Now, if any of you were alive in the 70s, summer sausage was my mom used to send me summer sausages in college. Oh yeah. Gift.
+
+[22:05] It's just like, I bet you miss this. Here we go. I bet you miss this. Was it full of like wet newspaper and tomato plants? Wait, what's the deal with summer sauce?
+
+[22:18] For those of us who weren't alive in the 70s. It's just alive in the summer. It was everywhere. It was like the thing. You went into Hickory Farms.
+
+[22:25] Yeah, you got their little like cheese whiz in like a piece of aluminum foil that said like something to fancify it. There was a summer sausage, there was like a port wine cheese thing, some crackers, and then a bunch of the Easter basket fluff. Yep. And then it was wrapped over. And like, you know, before Hickory Farms was in the mall, Hickory Farms was crap you ordered from a catalog that showed up at your house, and you had to wait several weeks.
+
+[22:57] And salumi wasn't a thing. Yeah. So then you would wait and it showed up. Then once it was in the once once you could just walk into a mall and buy it, I was like, the blush is off the rose. I was like, you know, nine, but something like that.
+
+[23:11] Summer sausage. So that was one of the things. That was like the hickory farm thing, right? I bet you miss this. But this summer sausage is uh not the Hickory Farm style.
+
+[23:24] It's a blend of hunted white-tailed deer from upstate and commercial pork. Uh okay. It's uh with a CH Hanson Safe Pro uh culture, which is the lacto culture that you use to drop the pH in it so that it's safe. Uh fermented in a bag to proper pH, then smoked. All right, you want to wanna.
+
+[23:43] Oh, it's um uh Elias Caro from uh Olympia Provisions, who is on the show while uh his his recipe with minor adjusted adjustments stored in the fridge since January of this year. I've been eating it since then, and then we got some Venetian jerky. Matt, you're having some of this. You heard what I called you venison jerky. Uh standard recipe with uh Handashi in it.
+
+[24:04] Hunted this, uh wait, hunted this white tail past Saturday, and you already have jerky. Man, you're prolific. And two different types of Chinese rice eel mold, which I also enjoy, and gets caramel creams, a man who knows my favorite candy. Now you eat this and we'll talk about it, and then while you're while you're eating, I'll be talking, and then you talk about gets caramel cream and our unsuccessful attempt to mimic it what we were trying to do while I eat mine. All right, alright?
+
+[24:31] Go. Okay. This the sausage is good. We try to make gets caramel creams, but with a coconut cream center, and it was we we were unsuccessful. I don't know why we were unsuccessful.
+
+[24:42] It was bad, but imagine people. That would be so good. Yeah, a coconut caramel cream with it. We get caramel cream. For those of you that have never been to the northeast or you know, Pennsylvania or anything, getz is spelled G-O-E-T-Z.
+
+[24:59] So it should be pronounced Gertz, but it's gets. And it says on the package, because they're sick of people mispronouncing the name, Gets. Let me ask you a question. Random question. You go to a bar.
+
+[25:11] I don't know. Let's say it's existing conditions, right? Okay, no, let's go to my bar. My favorite bar. Let's say you go to existing conditions and and you could buy Martin's pretzels in my favorite.
+
+[25:22] You know this. You've heard me talk about it a million times. What? Did you get them yet? Not yet.
+
+[25:25] So my question is what is reasonable to charge for like three dollars. Three dollars for three pretzels? Yeah. Alright. I love Martin's pretzels.
+
+[25:34] Martin's pretzels, the best. I had these people come up to me, people that I generally respect, and they're like, really genuine generally respect these people. This is a delicious sausage. They were like, it's really good. They were like, I don't like hard pretzels.
+
+[25:48] I was like, get out of my face. Don't talk to me for a week. They were some of your colleagues. Yeah, I was like, I don't want to see you or talk to you for like a week. Like, how do you not like a hard pretzel?
+
+[25:58] I like soft pretzels. First of all, soft pretzel, not really even a pretzel in my heart. Pretzel stick, not a pretzel, pretzels pretzel. And Martin's are like the best. Clearly.
+
+[26:08] If you've never had a Martin's pretzel. Oh my god, right? And some mustard. I need some mustard up in this. I need some mustard up in here.
+
+[26:17] Uh yeah. Let me get so you talk while I eat the jerk. When you finish eating the jerky. Jerky's good. What do you gotta say more about it?
+
+[26:23] Because I gotta have about five seconds to eat. Well, I'm worried about it. Why? Because you say that you're not supposed to eat you don't eat cow jerky. And you eat everything.
+
+[26:33] Like cow jerky? No, you say don't try. I don't eat cow brains. No, when we when we go on road trips, you say don't get the cow turkey, get the pig jerky. Or the turkey jerky, but not the cow.
+
+[26:47] I don't know. I don't remember saying this. Really? No, but you've said it three times. The best turkey jerky is the one from Lancaster County PA.
+
+[26:54] In the Lancaster County farmers market, there's a lady called the Turkey Jerky Lady, or something like this. And her turkey jerky is like the best turkey jerky if you like turkey jerky. Do you like turkey jerky? I like jerky. This is good.
+
+[27:08] I could use more salt and spices, no? You could. But no. Actually, you could not use any more salt or spice. I wish I could tell you the story of the Amazon person that I pissed off this morning.
+
+[27:22] Nastasia Lopez. I texted Dave. And I said, I'm an A-hole. Which, by the way, is the approved term. Please.
+
+[27:30] Yeah. Let's start calling each other A-holes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Go ahead.
+
+[27:33] That's it. You're not going to say anything more about it? No. Nope. Anyway, what do you think of the jerky?
+
+[27:39] I think it's good. I mean, I always add more salt. I always have. I don't think it needs more spice. I just like, I'm a salt fiend.
+
+[27:45] But the issue with jerky is that it's easy for it to go way too salty because you're dehydrating it. You know what I mean? You could post salt it or post-dust it. Anyway. I'm gonna answer some questions in a minute.
+
+[27:55] And then we gotta remember, we gotta get the classics in the field. We only have 10 minutes. And yesterday, you'll like this. Uh so we also we did Quest Love's event. We did Questloves uh book launch for the mixtape potluck last week, which is why we didn't have a show last week.
+
+[28:11] And uh that was mostly because I couldn't. And I had to do a I I had to do a cocktail that was almost entirely Grand Marnier, and Nastasia decided it was gonna be called one of my favorite things to say. It's a it was originally my grandpa lives in my driveway, but but Grand Marnier is grandma in bar parlance, and so we called it my grandma lives in my driveway. And so all of these people were like, uh, I'd like my grandma lives in my driveway. And I was like, and Peter came up and was like, my grandma lives in my driveway.
+
+[28:46] I'm like, are you mocking me because my grandma actually lived in my driveway? Peter came human punching back. Yeah, we've told that story on the air, right? My grandma lives in my driveway. You're not my grandpa, my grandpa lives in my driveway.
+
+[29:04] If there's a way to Google the episode where you talk about your parents' wedding or your mom and your stepdad's wedding, that's the greatest story ever. Really? Ever. The Jispiti. Yeah.
+
+[29:13] I try to like I don't know. To this day, I don't even know. I've never had a Jispiti. I don't know what it is. I don't know like how to translate like Neapolitan Boston diaspora.
+
+[29:23] Hey, what's the word that you say that I said what does it mean? Shkutengorp. I don't have any idea. Some of them I know what they are, but like they're just mutilated. Like Escongee.
+
+[29:36] You know, give you know what I mean? That means squid, right? Uh conch. Like, you know, welk, yeah. Give them the schutongee.
+
+[29:45] Give them the shk and gorp. Anyway. The other one I have no idea what it means. Someone who is fluent in this sort of in these sort of dialects can tell me. I just grew up hearing it.
+
+[29:56] I have no idea what it is. I got, hey, so like you know when uh you know when uh Charlie Brown like gets a rock in uh on Halloween? I got a rock, which is like terrible. You can see the rock getting thrown. It's pretty dark, those peanuts things.
+
+[30:11] Anyway, so in my stepfather's family, I got Codopolis. What? Cordopolis. What? Then the way I say it, it sounds like, you know, what's his name?
+
+[30:21] Uh Brad Pitt in uh Inglorious Bastards. Gorlami. But like Gerard, my stepfather Gerard is like, Codopolis. You know what I mean? It's like, there's all the someone someday will tell me what it means.
+
+[30:33] Jeff from Palm Springs writes in on eggnog. Could you discuss the safety of aging eggnog? Assuming it is safe, which it is, if it's aged long enough, why is it safe? Uh, how are those perishable ingredients preserved? Alcohol and sugar.
+
+[30:47] Uh what's happening in the process? This stuff dies from the alcohol and the sugar. Uh I enjoy your show, Jeff from Palm Springs. So, uh, every couple of years this crops up. The famous work was done by Rockefeller University.
+
+[30:58] Um there was a doctor there, Rebecca Lansfield, who was uh died in 1981. Uh she born in 1918, so she lived to a ripe bold age. And every Thanksgiving, now listen, this is what's important. She was aging from Thanksgiving to Christmas. So her recipe was a dozen eggs, a quart of heavy cream, a quart of light cream, a pint of bourbon, a quart of rum, nutmeg, and sugar to taste, one half to three quarters of a pound.
+
+[31:21] That's a nightmare of a recipe I know people, but this was in the 70s or whatever. She was writing this, so you know, cut her some slack. Uh in terms of units, it's a nightmare. Uh beat eggs, add bourbon and rum slowly with stirring to prevent precipitation of egg proteins. So she didn't ribbon the eggs, which is what a lot of people do in modern things.
+
+[31:38] Uh then here's the weird one. Beat heavy cream separately until it peaks and add to the egg bourbon rum mix. So uh, and then it's aged, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that maybe she adds the cream later. I don't know. Because why would you whip the cream, add it and then age it?
+
+[31:55] But she doesn't specify. Anyway, uh so it turns out that that recipe is 14.4% uh alcohol. And if she had aged it without the heavy whipping cream and put that in at the last minute, which is maybe what she did, then uh it would have been around 20. It has a bricks of about five to seven and a half percent. What's it supposed to be?
+
+[32:16] Eggnog. No, eggnog's supposed to be what. I don't know, but this is her recipe, that's all that matters. So they tested her recipe. Do you know what the alcohol percentage and eggnog normally should be?
+
+[32:24] No, because I don't make it, I don't drink it. I don't have a recipe for it in my book. I've never come up with a recipe for it. Do we make it one year? If by we you mean piper, I thought that was you.
+
+[32:34] No. Uh so they tested it. They they the issue is is that the uh the bacteria isn't killed right away, uh, but it doesn't grow anymore and it starts dying. So after a couple of weeks of aging, it is uh it is fully fine and and will stay fine. It does change over time.
+
+[32:51] Some people like very aged eggnogs, some people don't. Um, Kenji did some sort of tasting a couple years ago where they didn't like uh the eggnog after being aged for a year, but they were serving it at 20% alcohol, which is way more alcoholic than the Rockefeller uh recipe, so who knows? Nick Bennett from Porch Light ages it for a couple of years. We once had one that was like four years old and it was nasty. Guess what?
+
+[33:15] Nick Bennett's gonna use this year for Christmas. What? Wine Santa. Oh god. So wine Santa, I you know I don't have the time.
+
+[33:22] I don't have time. Uh Alex writes in uh interested in hearing uh Dave's opinion on space ice cream. I'm personally a huge fan. Thoughts, opinions, anecdotes, chemistry. I've made it, the stuff's just freeze-dried.
+
+[33:33] It's easy to freeze dry uh ice cream because it's already got a lot of air holes in it, so it's relatively undense. So the less dense the ice cream you start with, the uh easier it is to freeze dry. And because it's already kind of in a frozen state and you're not worried about collapse, you can just kind of take ice cream out of the freezer and freeze dry it. You don't need liquid nitrogen or anything crazy. So if you have any sort of freeze dryer, uh it's very easy to make.
+
+[33:57] I think it's okay in the way that like you know, marshmallows in a cereal box are okay. What do you think? Yeah, I don't, it's fine. But it's it's r it's like one of the easiest things to make in a freeze dryer and it's relatively stable, so uh, and it tastes relatively good compared to other freeze-dried things straight. Uh like, you know, the worst freeze-dried thing I ever freeze-dried, like oysters, oh my god, were they bad.
+
+[34:19] Remember that? No, I don't know. And clams. I don't know that it was with the God. Oh, it was canned clams.
+
+[34:24] I took canned clams and freeze-dried them. And imagine if the ocean came to rob your mouth of all of its moisture. Imagine if low tide, the personification of low tide, showed up and removed every speck of moisture from your mouth. That is what it tastes like. The trick with Oh, Davey, I got three minutes.
+
+[34:48] The tip with the trick with deep uh freeze drying is that there needs to be enough water in it for there to be a good texture when it's done, and there needs to be enough fat in it such that it's not intensely drying, or enough sugar such that it's not intensely drying when you eat it. That's the trick. Uh now, uh, and then we did this other thing. Okay, so. Oh, you didn't get the question I said, you.
+
+[35:09] Yeah, what? I did. Oh, country ham. Uh we'll do country ham next time. Uh, because I want to get maybe uh I'll get Chesare to see whether he can find the question was does anyone sell shank on country ham?
+
+[35:22] And I don't know whether anyone does in the US sell an American-made shanking country ham because even at the heritage places the the shanks are cut off. This Joe Ankowitz wrote in this book. I don't know, I'll think about it for next week. Cloth. So, in closing, we have a couple minutes.
+
+[35:35] Classic city in the field. So this week we're gonna talk about a book that was very important to me uh called uh Roasting, a Simple Art. You ever have that book, Nastasia? No. How many millions of times have you heard me talk about it?
+
+[35:46] Many. Really? So what so tell me, what am I gonna say? Something, I don't know. Ah, so you can see browning effects.
+
+[35:52] No. Uh different cultures roasting. No. Then get to it, Dave. So you've never heard me say it, you didn't say you had.
+
+[35:58] What? I've heard you talk about a book called Roasting. And then from there you spaced out, so you have no idea. Like okay. The book was made in 1995.
+
+[36:07] It was called Roasting a Simple Art. So Barbara Kafka, I actually had dinner with her once, which I'll get to in a second if I have time. Um, she wrote this book in the kind of mid-90s. And the uh I don't feel that people are reading it very much these days, but I think it's hard to kind of underestimate the effect it had, or at least the kind of ripples that were thrown into the cooking uh water by this book. Uh and in fact, it is one of the was one of the very couple of books that is really influencing, influenced me to the extent that I'm thinking a lot about it for the book that I'm writing about the miracle of moisture management.
+
+[36:47] And it's a big thick book, and it can be summed up basically with this turn your oven up. So all of the recipes in it are turn your oven as hot as it can get, you know, and put the stuff in. Take the chicken, turn your oven up to 500 degrees, throw it into the oven. Take, you know, take your potatoes, cut them up, toss them in oil, salt, pepper, you know, maybe some rosemary if your cheser, maybe some onions in there, uh, throw it into the oven at 500 and just cook it till it's done. And when you read it, it's one of those things almost like low temperature cooking where you're like, that's crazy, that's crazy.
+
+[37:24] Because when she was writing it in the 90s in 95, no one, no one was really thinking about what was going on in the cooking process to make to make things work and what the effect of jacking the temperature is. Instead, people like Julia Child were like bent because it fills your house with smoke. In fact, almost none of us have a vent good enough that we can turn our oven up to or an oven clean enough. If your oven is like scrupulously clean, and if all of the fat that comes off of a bird or whatever is caught in a pan that has liquid so that it doesn't scorch and fire, you can crank your oven to 500 reliably. Uh because the bird itself is probably not gonna burn, but it's just all the ancillary stuff that causes all the smoke.
+
+[38:04] So I would say most people that are following her recipes are really only going up to 425, 450. But it was this really just like you know, pedal to the floor way of cooking was rather revolutionary at the time. And so she caught a lot of flack for it, including from people like specifically Julia Child, who gave her flack for it. So this book was like, I, you know, it was important to me. I was doing all these experiments.
+
+[38:26] I had this giant blodget half pan oven that I had modified so that I could shoot video in it. It had glass on all four sides, and I would crank it to you know up to 450, which is the highest it would go, but it was convection, and I was doing her stuff, and it really had an effect on kind of how how I was cooking at the time. Had dinner with her, and by the way, she died last year at the age of like 84, 85. I had dinner with her and Giuliano Bugiolli, which by the way, he also just died this year. Uh crazy.
+
+[38:54] Do you like crazy Italian people? Yeah. But do you like hardcore? Like, I have I ever told Giuliano Bugiali stories on the air before. Well, well, next, maybe I'll choose a Giuliano Buggiali book and we'll talk about Giuliano Buggiali another time.
+
+[39:05] So I am having dinner, I was I was 30, like two or three, but I looked like 22 or three, and I had just started uh doing low temperature cooking, sous vide cooking instruction at the French Culinary Institute. I'm in Napa, which you know, sorry, California, Napa in the summer is a hellhole, so hot, so much sun and everything I hate. Anyway, so I'm there at this conference being put on by Mondavi. This is the conference where the next year I went to it and Mandavi got wheeled up to his seat so he could sip champagne out of a straw in his like 90s. He couldn't move, but he could still sip champagne out of a straw, and I was like, that is the way to go.
+
+[39:48] If you if if anyone's like, but it's quality of life, quality of life is dude is drinking champagne out of a straw in his 90s. This is a huge win. I see this as a huge win. Anyway, so we're at Mondavi at Copia, and uh I have dinner with Barbara Kafka and Giuliano Bujali, and I stupid, stupid guy. This is always how I do it, so stupid.
+
+[40:08] I say to her, hey, so uh, you know, roasting, great book, love it. You know, but what do you think about this low temperature cooking? And she lit into me about low temperature cooking as this new fad and everything, because I think she took it as yet another attack on the way that she was writing. She also wrote the first like well-known microwave cookbook in the 80s, in like 1987. But in my normal, like bonehead fashion, I kind of wasn't clear about well, low temperature and high temperature, they're like brothers.
+
+[40:46] You know what I mean? You can't do one without the other. What I was really saying is I'm kind of supporting this high temperature idea that you have, right? And but also kind of melding it with low temperature. My whole cooking career trajectory since then has been about high, high, high and then low, low, low way way of cooking.
+
+[41:05] And that's still the way I think. And I think people don't go back and look at her book, especially in the light of low temperature cooking, uh that you know we do now in C V cooking. Go back and take a look at her work and and kind of reassess the importance of what Barbara Kafka did, because I think it's important. That's this week's Classics in the Field Cooking Issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[41:38] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[41:53] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[42:15] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
+
+[42:41] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:29] Hearst Ranch is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. Learn more about Hearst Ranch at Hearstranch.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're telling the stories behind iconic dishes. We learn what it will take to save New York's most famous egg cream, discover the importance of the goat neck in the East Village, and take a trip to India for delicious flatbreads. Our customers who come in to get egg creams and t shirts, they love to talk about their childhood or their teenage years or their college years.
+
+[1:06] I was living in uh Nepal and Northern India. And out there there's a real famous dish. A classic dish, I should say, is called paya. Parati Vali Gali, or as it awkwardly translates in English, the lane of the stuffed flatbread makers is probably one of the most popular food sheets in Old Ali. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:43] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network. Pretty damn close to 12. I was here not that late. I mean, late, but not that late.
+
+[1:54] From Earth's P3 in Bushwing Brr Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas. We got Matt in the booth. Feeling good.
+
+[2:02] And Peter Punching Bagim from MoFat. How are you doing, Peter? It's risen to the status of an official moniker. Peter, the punching bag, Kim! What's my WWF costume there?
+
+[2:18] Uh I don't know. I got punching bags. Big punching bag. I'm just dressed like a punching bag, basically. Yeah, you'd be protected from hits.
+
+[2:25] It's good. My move is just standing there and the other person punching me until they fall over. Call in all your rope-dope questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:37] What are you here for today, Peter? Aside from getting uh batted about Well, I am here, David, to uh be on the show because it's been a long time, of course. He's lying. But also trying, want to uh give a plug for Mofad's Kickstarter campaign that's up right now. There you go.
+
+[2:53] We are raising money for the exhibition Africanslash American Making the Nation's Table. Can you describe this exhibition? Well, it will be the country's first exhibition to recognize black contributions to American cuisine. Wait, you mean the first one that we're doing? The first one, the first major one.
+
+[3:10] First one ever. No, but wait a second, it's like it's the first one ever, really. That's right. No one like people have talked about certain contributions. That's right.
+
+[3:18] Right, but no one has ever devoted an exhibition to this subject. And who is heading the exhibition? Who's our curator? Dr. Jessica B.
+
+[3:27] Harris. That's right. And who, by the way, host on Heritage Radio Network, so check out her podcast that we're on. I don't think she's recorded one recently, but she has some podcasts up on Heritage Radio Network. And I would say, if you were like, it's not just that this is who we ended up with.
+
+[3:43] If you could choose any single human being on Earth to be the curator of this exhibition, she is the OG. Yeah, she is the one. There's generally a consensus also among the sort of culinary community. I mean, it's just like she is the one who's been writing about this way before anybody was talking about it, really. So yeah.
+
+[4:02] No, the for a long time ago, long, long, long time ago, like hers were the only books on the subject that were available. It was, you know. Uh, you know, I went to uh when I was in New Orleans last, I went to Dukey Chase. I think I spoke about it on the on the show because of their shrimp clements so and the butter that I want I want to have like packed into crates and sent to me the Clemenceau butter. Uh but when I told them that uh that Jessica had told me to go there and speak to them, they were like, yeah, she told us to speak to you, and that's why we're talking to you.
+
+[4:32] Because literally, nobody, if she tells you to do something, you do it. Yeah. So yeah, so I think you'll agree, Dave, this is probably one of the most important food and drink stories that we could really get out there as an exhibition from Mofad. And we have our campaign up right now. We could definitely use some support.
+
+[4:50] And if honestly, if every listener to Cooking Issues just took five minutes, put in 20 bucks, the cost of you know a pizza, then we would get past our goal multiple times over. So please visit AA.mofad.org. Again, that's aa.mofad.org. And really, contributions at any level uh really help, but uh would really appreciate it. When I was in college, the standard garbage pizza was seven bucks.
+
+[5:15] Nastasia called it! We were trying to think of something that wouldn't take you off and onto a tangent. But yes, okay, agreed. Depends on where you get the pizza. Depends on the number of toppings.
+
+[5:24] Even today. Let's just say even today. I can go to the West 4th Street stop, get off, and walk three feet and obtain eight slices, a whole pie of dollar slice pizza. Dollar sliced pizza. For eight dollars.
+
+[5:36] So this this the stipulation here is that this is a higher priced pizza place, and you're getting something more along the meat lovers extravaganza with three X's. Which by the way leaves me to this, which is not a tangent, Nastasia, Peter, you're a snob. That's it's a long way to say this. $20 pizza. Anyway, but back to the pizza is the answer.
+
+[5:57] It's you for the low cost of two and a half dollar pizzas. That's right. For the low there you go. That is irre That is irreputable. Assuming it's sliced in eight slices, of course.
+
+[6:09] Which, you know, that's the way God wants pizza slice. Well, unless it's a small pizza, in which case you go to six. But no one likes a small pizza. Or personal pizzas go to four. But in any case.
+
+[6:17] So uh yes, go to amofad.org and please kick in, and we have lots of nice perks. You can see the exhibition before anybody else. We've got signed books from Jessica Harris. We've got uh some really great stuff. So I've said this before.
+
+[6:31] You know, Nastasia Lopez likes to walk up with a 50 cent piece and get change for her coffee. What? She buys the cheapest coffee. She buys the worst coffee. Yeah.
+
+[6:39] Delhi coffee? No, not even. No, no, Delhi, they have to pay overhead. They have to pay rent to have it deli. So that's too high rent for her.
+
+[6:46] That's too. No, I make my own coffee now. What's what's your definition of bad coffee? She buys coffee that was brewed like at three in the morning, put into a caraft, taken out on the street side in a truck and served all day, been kind of kept hot all day. Not in a thermal correct.
+
+[7:07] Oh, the cards. I see, yeah, I got it. She also, do you know how to do it? Come on. I mean, those pastry carts, it's like a part of New York City.
+
+[7:12] I mean, I get it. I enjoyed that they exist, but would you ever buy coffee there? No. No. Do you enjoy a stale Kaiser roll with uh butter?
+
+[7:19] Because that's the other thing they sell, really. The stale Kaiser roll. I grew up on stale Kaiser roll and butter wrapped in saran though. Yeah. That was, you know.
+
+[7:26] There is a romance there, but they're objectively not a tasty way to start your day. No, they're bad. You know what? I used to love, love, love Kaiser rolls. I think too doughy for most applications.
+
+[7:36] They go stale too quickly. What do you think about the Kaiser roll? I love the Kaiser roll. Caller on the air with a question about Kaiser rolls. Really?
+
+[7:44] I mean, not the last part, but yeah. Caller on the air. Not about Kaiser Rolls. Sorry about that. Yeah, well, you know, well, one, let me just say uh uh Johnny Hunter turned me on to the show a while back, and um it's had a huge impact on my knowledge of cooking and dude and food in general.
+
+[8:03] So really appreciate what you guys do. Johnny's a great guy too. Yeah, he's a good one. Um so I have a bunch of friends who just moved into this really nice house uh in South Austin, Texas, with a huge backyard. Um they're trying to have a housewarming party, probably like 50 to 80 people, and they want me to or you know, it's a group effort here.
+
+[8:27] But uh the idea we came up with was just roasting a whole pig. Um, you know, we know some farmers in the area, so we can get a good one. Um I've never done that before. I know you need to butterfly it. Um, but I wasn't sure if we should like rent uh uh a pit smoker to put it in or build it ourselves.
+
+[8:46] So I wanted uh I wanted to know if you had any insight or suggestions and how to go about it. The biggest pig I've ever personally cooked whole is only like 30 to 40 pounds. And I'm assuming that you're gonna get like a standard like 180 to 220 pound hog, right? Probably. I think it's gonna be around like 110, 125.
+
+[9:09] Okay, like a medium size, medium sized thing. I mean, there's something fun about there's something I could see it going both ways. Like it's not particularly difficult to build, um, it's not particularly difficult to build a uh a pit, you know, uh in the ground. But, yeah, and then you have it, right? But also there's something fun about not having to do that and then renting the unit and having it show up.
+
+[9:33] The rental units are probably also easier to control because you know you can kind of look up their characteristics, fire them up fairly easily. Uh whereas the one in ground, I would run a couple of tests first to see kind of how much stuff you need to burn to get it to what temperature, how well it maintains. So I would probably do a test firing beforehand. It's never good to fire something up the first time, although that's entirely how I operate my life. You know, I I still tell people that it's not the kind of way to go.
+
+[10:00] But I can see the kind of the joy of both ways of having something just magically appear and having it work uh versus uh you know putting it in into the ground. So it's really gonna be, I mean, I'm gonna have to leave that up to what's more important to you uh to do. I mean, for me, I would probably build the damn thing. But but I think I'm a bad guy for this though. Isn't it it's pretty cheap to buy a cajina too, right?
+
+[10:25] Uh do they hold a full do they hold that big of a I think they do, yeah. People love the cajina. Yeah. People love, love the cajachina. I was looking at doing a whole rug for Mofad, and I was looking for the easiest sort of surfire way to do it.
+
+[10:39] I ended up landing on the cajina. But I can't remember how much that thing costs. But the cajina, it's been a long time. It's basically like a lined plywood box, but it's overfired. Yeah, I'm not sure.
+
+[10:49] I can't remember. It's been so long. People do love the caja china, which is not from China. It's like, why do they call it cajina? Lord knows.
+
+[10:57] But yeah, it's m mainly from the Caribbean, I think. Yeah, I know like the people I know who use it are Puerto Rican, but I don't know where it's from. Yeah. Um, but anyway, uh, yeah, butterflying is gonna make your your life easier, but I don't feel I feel that there are many people, maybe even some people on the chat, who have an outdoor space where they can do this who are more expert. I've always wanted to do a buried pig.
+
+[11:19] Talk about, talk about really like now that there are people who do the buried pigs who um who like bury thermocouples with it so they can figure out what's going on, right? But there is something real baller about a buried pig. You know what I'm saying? Like a giant Kahlua style buried pig. There's something like kind of baller about that.
+
+[11:39] But again, yeah, you got to got to see that in the Yucatan, the cochinita for Bill. How was it? I don't know. Oh, it was amazing. I mean, they uh they took the big lattas, like the aluminum pins, and then they cut the whole thing in half and buried it underground for I think it was like 17 hours.
+
+[11:56] Yeah, that sounds good. Um but I don't think we have that much dirt to work with. Well, I don't know, like what do you mean? Like how hard is it to dig a hole in Austin? I mean, in Connecticut, it's impossible.
+
+[12:06] Well, they just have you know, it's a it's a yard and part of it has like cobblestones on it. I just don't think, and they don't own the house, they're renting it, so I don't think we can build like a four feet deep hole. But um if they don't own it, just rent the thing. Hey, it comes in, you bring it, you tow it in. This is Austin.
+
+[12:23] Someone has a pickup truck. Like, go like, you know, go, you know, tow the thing in, fire it up, cook the thing, get rid of it, and then you've done nothing to their house. That seems to me, with those kind of scenarios where there's no ownership of the house or desire to have a pig shaped like hole in the ground or burnt spot. Uh-huh. You know?
+
+[12:41] Because this that sucker you can just chuck up in the driveway and go, you know. Yeah, I was thinking like I saw online you can do it pretty easily with Tinder blocks, like building a um I guess just a pit, you know. But I I was wondering should I be nervous at all about like a grease fire? I mean, what do you mean nervous? You worried about burning the pig?
+
+[13:03] Like what are you gonna what are you gonna catch on fire? You're not gonna build it next to the house, are you no, but if the fat drips down in the backyard, it's not like an issue at all. I mean I mean like if you I mean like I wouldn't say this is someone who lived in like, you know, who's gonna build a fire near brush in California right now. But I mean you know like it's like what are you gonna burn down? Like you can hose you can hose down your your grass and all this other stuff around it if you're if you're really worried about it.
+
+[13:33] But you know in general like you gotta follow a certain state like don't build it near any structure or an like that can burn or any source of tinder. Like if you had a if you had a pile of dry tall gr if you were like had dry tall grass or brush anywhere near you I'd be like that is a bad idea. Even with a grill I would move that stuff away. You know a couple of a couple of uh you know good pops off of one of those and if you have a tinder box next to you will p light up, you know what I mean? But you know, I I would assume that you you know you could either moisten down this is the same problem like you know, people have when when like I'm lighting fireworks.
+
+[14:10] I'm like, it's wet here. Nothing's gonna light on fire. It is wet here, you know. But you know, if you were doing that in California, you know, in Sonoma, you know, where the in the entire ground is primed to catch on fire, then I'd be like, yeah, you know, fireworks maybe not a good idea right here unless you had like adequate fire breaks and whatnot. But I would say the same thing for any of these things.
+
+[14:34] Right. I mean, Austin's not dry, is it? Um, it's pretty dry. I mean, uh it's rained a good bit in the past week, but hopefully uh when it won't be anymore. This is gonna be early December.
+
+[14:47] Yeah, I mean just I mean like exercise caution, don't build it near sources of flame, you know, especially sources of flame that can travel long distances. Yeah, it just comes down to moisture management. It's all moisture management, baby. That's the answer to everything. Like all of life's problems can be solved with moisture management.
+
+[15:06] Yeah. Moisture management. Yeah. Let us know about it. I'll keep it posted.
+
+[15:09] Yeah, let us know how to know it turns out. All right, cool. Peter burned my sausages. Oh, that is that the name of your next band, Peter Burn My Sausages. I gave them a heavy dose of my yard.
+
+[15:20] Oh, you did the uh Argentinian style grade? Yeah. The tripod grade? No, question, Stas. Were the sausages delicious?
+
+[15:28] Yes or no, were the sauces in the city. Okay, so Peter was Peter was at Nastasia Lopez's fall festival, which I couldn't attend because Dax was racing, and he was wearing a tie. Okay, he was it is because I was my kid was Calvin of Calvin and Hobbs, and I was his loser dad, who's always in a suit. That checks out. There you go.
+
+[15:49] So there you go. Was was Felix peeing on the fire? Yes. You got a full costume. There you go.
+
+[15:59] I would love that. Yeah, yeah. But who was who is the uh tiger character? I have we had a little stuffed animal tiger for him to carry around. Yeah.
+
+[16:07] But he didn't, he hated it, so it didn't really work. But spiked up his hair. You know, he's blonde. Um I haven't, you know, I can't remember anything about Calvin and Hobbes except for the car pictures. Well, the thing about Calvin and Hobbes is I've reread it as an adult and as a parent, and I've realized that Calvin is actually like seriously a troubled person who has no ability to connect with anybody, and he lives in this hypothetical world.
+
+[16:30] And so he's he's got some kind of deeper issues. Just like us. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:37] But if you look at the comics now, everybody has a hard time with him. His parents, his classmates, his teacher, his friends. He has no friends. His only friend is this stuffed animal. And but are we to assume in the cartoon that the stuffed animal is actually a real character, or are we to assume that it is an imaginary character that is some sort of pseudo-alter alter ego for him?
+
+[16:57] That's what it is. So there's a really dark undertone to Calvin and Hobbes for me now. Sweet. Yeah, sweet. So you dress your son as that.
+
+[17:05] There you go. Yep. And that's Peter Kim for you, folks. And you know, the sausages ended up good, right, Stas? I mean, it's like just a little little heavy my art on it.
+
+[17:14] It's like when people undercook things and they say, you know, it's a little al dente. Uh so last week should take this to heart because the only input from the chat is I think you should make a bunch of sausages instead of doing a whole pig. That's that. But don't do them Peter Kim style. Right.
+
+[17:31] Don't do them Peter Kim style. Uh all right. Alright, so uh last week, I'm gonna give some updates. Last week we had, and uh next week I'll give an update because I'll post the pictures. Uh next week I'll talk about Art of Varc hot sauces because I got the received the Art of Arc hot sauces.
+
+[17:44] Uh but last week Nastasia and I did some tastes on uh air. A listener who preferred to remain anonymous but went by Capri Sun, uh sent us a bunch of stuff. What did we taste on Airstas? The venison jerky sausage and the summer sausage. Right, we went off on summer sausage.
+
+[18:01] But they also summer sausage, Dax love the summer sausage and the jerky. And then, like, you know, at the bar there was endless jokes about you know this person or that person's summer sausage. But the uh by the way, summer sausage, and I'm not gonna get into it again. Listen to last week. Listen to last week.
+
+[18:17] Listen to last week. Uh they also included in that care package, which Nastasia didn't mention. Uh, they included in that care package uh, well, we mentioned it, the masa, the blue masa made with macienda corn. Shout out to Macienda, and a uh striped bass filet. Beautiful, by the way, beautifully filleted striped bass filet.
+
+[18:34] Uh, and then I wrote read on the package that it was sent in, it had been Ike G made. And so uh I was like, so that night I, you know, pressed out the tortillas in my Victoria. By the way, if you buy the tortilla, the standard tortilla press, like the tinned tortilla press that is standard here, which I think is made by Victoria, just an FYI. The way that they're organized is there's uh the flap and then the handle, right? So you put saran down.
+
+[19:00] I don't know, some people say they can do it without saran. There's freaking lying, there's morons, I don't know what the hell they're saying. But anyway, you put saran down on the tortilla press, put the ball of tortilla, you put the ball uh closer to the hinge end, right? Then you slap it down, you put the handle over, go pfft, you press it down, and you might have to you know push hard to it a couple times, and that's it. That's your tortilla.
+
+[19:20] Now, uh, a little trick, they're not very well aligned, and so the maximum or the minimum thinness of tortilla is not ideal on those things. So I have a cardboard permanent cardboard shim that you know, thin cardboard shim that I use. You should find your own thickness that you like that I store with my tortilla press such that I can get the proper thickness of tortilla out of the standard American available Victoria tortilla press. Anyway, so I made a bunch of blue corn tortillas, and since I have a very nice uh crepe maker, a crempeuse, pronounce it properly, PDP. Come on.
+
+[19:58] Come on. What what crep crep? No, the the company crampus C K R A M P K K-R-A-M Cramp? Crampus. There it's it's like the Brittany model, it's like the French crepe maker.
+
+[20:10] It's the one they use in France. It's the one I carried home on my back. There you go, baby. Yay! Anyway, it's gas fired.
+
+[20:17] And so, like, it's a very good comal substitute. And so I was able to get nice puffy tortillas, they were very good. And then, because you ekiji made the uh striped bass filet. For those of you that don't know what I could, I don't got time to tell you now. Look it up on the Cooking Issues blog.
+
+[20:31] But uh I ate some raw just so I could see what the texture of. And even though it had been uh frozen and thawed, the texture of it was very nice, very nice, very clean flavor, very nice. Uh and then the rest I did my standard, my standard technique, which is uh little flour, little flour on the skin side, butter in the pan, start it to crisp it up, and then uh, you know, base the butter over the top. Well, salt and pepper, but uh base the butter over the top, and then uh under the broiler for a while, pull out, put back on the stove for a little bit to requisite the bottom skin, sears all the top to finish and dump out. Delicious and not overcooked.
+
+[21:09] Uh I love I love it as Sears all with the fish. Nastasi and I, Nastasia says I should talk more about my Sears I'll use. I also I was also steaming the hell out of some cheese. I've been steaming so much cheese recently in my in my burger tender Connecticut style official cheese steamer. And I have to tell you, I love the hell out of it.
+
+[21:28] You know, we had a Johnny was mentioned earlier from Madison. So for those of you that are from Wisconsin and in general, that area of the country who think you know squeaky cheese, I have now steamed. I have become, I'm not gonna say I've become the master of the cheese steamer, but like the cheese steamer and I kind of speak the same language. We've got our communication protocol down such that like, you know, I got I can run it now on an induction burner and I can just sit there and keep it, and I know how long I I can keep cheese a lot longer. The steamed cheese, so the way this works, people, is you have a square box called the burger tender.
+
+[22:04] Burger B you burger with apostrophes, tender with a apostrophe R. And in it are a bunch of little like rectangular dishes made of Ultem plastic, right? Which are kind of real nice. And then you can put burgers in them, but that's kind of dumb. I don't really like the steam burger.
+
+[22:20] But then you you can put into it these blocks of cheese and they steam, but because they're in this container, the one of the tricks is you gotta pam the container first so that the cheese can come out. But the trick is this you steam it, and you can as long as you don't like have like too much of moisture condenses in over a long period of time. So if the steam is really, really raging, you get a lot of moisture in, but you can kind of pour the moisture out, it doesn't matter. But I've tested anywhere from like 10, you really need about 10 minutes to steam the cheese, right, up to like an hour. I haven't done more than an hour and a half.
+
+[22:49] Anyway, so the trick is you pull it out and you let it rest, and as it rests, the outside skins up a little bit. And if you're using straight cheese as opposed to pizza, you think, going back to pizza, that it's the cheese on the pizza that's burning you. I think it's the sauce that's burning you. Because I've eaten these cheese almost right out of the steamer, and I don't get viciously burnt because there's not a lot of water in cheese. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[23:11] And so there's not a lot of ability for it to transfer the heat to your mouth. And so the steamed cheese can be eaten relatively quickly, but if you dump it right out of the bucket, it kind of oozes everywhere. If you wait like between 45 seconds and a minute and then take it out, it starts going into the dough phase where the cheese becomes a dough. So, like, like mild Kilby style, like queso de papa, like crap BS cheddar, that stuff steams like on point, amazing. Sharp cheddar, you have to wait for it to fully melt out and then congeal, and it's good.
+
+[23:41] But, and here's where I'm gonna say like if you ever have a chance to steam cheese, Peter, you would never buy this cheese, Nastasi would never buy this cheese. But you can get it at Trader Joe's. So, you know how President makes the cheap brie? Yeah. What the hell is that, Matt?
+
+[23:55] President makes the cheap brie. They also make a cheap fake emantaller called madrigal, madrigal. And madrigal fake Swiss style cheese from France by the President Corporation. When you steam that thing, when you cut it into like little two-ounce like squares and you steam it, it doesn't melt. Even for 45 minutes, it doesn't melt when it's steamed.
+
+[24:17] But what happens is you pull what is that noise, Matthew? I have no idea. When you pull out, when you pull it out of the steamer, right? You let it sit for a second and you eat it, it's not the first bite that's squeaky, but as it starts cooling in your mouth, the second, third, fourth, and fifth bites are the squeakiest of all squeaks. Makes a makes a Wisconsin cheese curd seem like cream cheese in comparison to its squeak ability.
+
+[24:43] It is and to me the pleasure of the squeak is so high. I I brought some into the bar and I steamed it in my little all ten containers. I steamed this cheese at the bar, and like half the people were like, oh yeah, super squeaky. And then I was like, you guys aren't worth it! And I left.
+
+[25:00] I was like, like no one can understand. If you're not like, this is why I won't serve it at the bar, because it's like, for those of you out there, if you can hear me and you like the squeak, go find President Madrigal President brand Madrigal cheese. Cut the rind off, slice it into pieces. How big is that, Peter? Like like three quarters of an inch.
+
+[25:18] Three quarters. Three quarters of an inch thick. Right? Into like almost like sticks, if you can. Steam it for like 15, 15, at least, at least 15 minutes.
+
+[25:29] Pull it out, let it set, push on it. It should feel rubbery. Let it sit for a second, and like you can feel it's pliable, and eat it, and then let the other piece sit for a little bit and eat it and see how long the squeak maintains. It's ridiculous. It's the squeakiest.
+
+[25:43] The squeakiest of all squeaks. It's the squeakiest cheese I've ever had. The squeakiest I've ever had. I didn't know you derive so much pleasure from squeaks. All people who truly love cheese curds derive pleasure from squeaks.
+
+[26:00] And there you have it. Join Heritage Radio Network on Monday, November 11th for a raucous feast to toast a decade of food radio. Our 10th anniversary Bachinal is a rare gathering of your favorite chefs, mixologists, storytellers, thought leaders, and culinary masterminds. We'll salute the Inductees of the newly minted HRN Hall of Fame, who embody our mission to further equity, sustainability, and deliciousness. Explore the beautiful palm house and yellow magnolia cafe.
+
+[26:41] Taste and imbibe to your heart's content, and bid on once-in-a-lifetime experiences and tasty gifts for any budget at our silent auction. Tickets available now at Heritage Radio Network.org/slash gala. Hearst Ranch is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. The Hearst family has been raising cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of California's Central Coast for over 150 years. Piedra Blanca Rancho in San Simeon is the original Hearst Ranch, founded by George Hearst in 1865.
+
+[27:13] George's son was the famous publisher William Randolph Hearst. In addition to being known for building the iconic Hearst Castle, William was, like his father before him, an avid rancher. In his words, I would rather spend a month at the ranch than any place in the world. Thanks to one of the largest land conservation easements in California history, a joint effort with the California Rangeland Trust, the American Land Conservancy, and the state of California, the working landscape at Hearst Ranch will be preserved forever. Learn more about Hearst Ranch at Hearstranch.com.
+
+[27:48] So, anyway, so I enjoyed uh I enjoyed the care package that I received. Yeah, yeah. Well, if you like a particular quality about something, may as well see what it's like to take it all the way, right? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[27:57] Right. That's right, Peter. This is what people don't do. Like, whenever you're testing something, people say, How do you figure out X, Y, and Z? All right.
+
+[28:05] Well, you try to do something that's close to what you think is right, and then do a lot more and a lot less of that and see which way it goes. Exactly. Right? It's like all the way up, all the way down, see what happens. All these kind of middling things takes forever to get where you want.
+
+[28:14] That's right. You know what I mean? Anyway, someday, you know, I want I want to do a thing of tales of the cocktail this year, but I'm probably gonna miss the deadline where I talk about literally, like specifically how to do drink development from kind of my point of view. But then I thought it'd be interesting to get someone whose drinks are kind of the exact opposite of the style that I work in. But I gotta figure out who that would be, and then ask them like in the next day.
+
+[28:41] By the way, speaking of next day, Nastasi and I will not be here next week. We will be in China. China. We will be in China next week, trying to make our next product. Nastasi Lopez not psyched about going to China.
+
+[28:55] Because I've How can you not be excited about going there? Have you ever been to this part of China? No. It would be like imagine you're like, you're not excited to go see the United States. You've never been to the US.
+
+[29:04] You're not excited. We're going to Elizabeth, New Jersey, and we're staying only in Elizabeth. No offense, Elizabeth, New Jersey, but offense, New Elizabeth, New Jersey. Absolutely offense. Direct offense.
+
+[29:16] I've never even been to Ron Conkoma. Anyway, yeah, so like the thing is like you're like, you're gonna go like New Jersey, a lot of great places, but not even like I hear there's nice Elizabeth. No, you're gonna stay at the Kogen plant right off of the New Jersey Turnpike. Okay, I got it. The place where your car has to be on resurf, or you pass out.
+
+[29:34] You know I'm talking about about the Jersey Turnpike, where you're like, what is that? You're like, oh, that is the cogen plant and all of the that says like that has like fire shooting out of the top of it and then touts how like environmentally sound it is, and it's right next to all the petroleum storage. Because in Elizabeth is where all the petroleum storage tanks are, so it smells hard like petroleum right next to the highway. I got us a nice hotel in Hong Kong the last night because they listed an airport hotel. And I was like, Oh, actually, I I always stay at the Marriott.
+
+[29:59] The one right at the airport, super convenient. That's great. I'll put you there, and I'll stay in the nice hotel. Uh okay, well, good luck getting to the airport in the morning. What time's our flight?
+
+[30:14] Oh, you're taking a different flight? Yeah. But yours place is a little bit more. Why don't you talk to me? But where are you staying?
+
+[30:18] You're staying on the island? Or are you staying on Kowloon? On the island. You're I mean, I can put you at the airport hotel. Marriott.
+
+[30:27] The Marriott by the airport, the water tastes terrible. They don't filter it. It tastes like a fish tank. Horrible. But like, and tea tastes like the water.
+
+[30:35] Horrible. Like a fish tank. Like algae. Like garbage. Like filth.
+
+[30:40] Safe, garbage. But their buffet, decent actually. Decent. Uh Timothy Hamlet writes this. Can you refresh my memory about your Neonata pizza?
+
+[30:52] I tracked down a couple of jars, uh, genuinely unavailable in Canada, at least online and in Vancouver, but now can't find the episode where you discuss how you make the pie. Very simple. I actually do I remember how I did it. I don't. I think it was just basically you make it the dough, you put on the neonata.
+
+[31:10] You make it the dough. You put it on the I think it was just Neonata. Did I put cheese on it? I I'm I'm channeling I'm challenging my classics in the field guy from later who's you know, as Nastasia and I was saying, fun to say Giuliano Buggiali. But like, say it's that.
+
+[31:26] No. It's a lot of yeah, how many ways is your mouth move when you say it? Giuliano Buggiali. Anyway, uh, and whenever I say it, I remind myself uh of the way that uh Brad Pitt's character says Gorlami. In Glorious Bastards, which is, you know, one of everyone's.
+
+[31:44] If you've seen that movie, that's one of the all-time best parts. Yeah. He's put his name's supposed to be Corleone, and he's like, what's your name? Gorlami. He's supposed to actually be Italian.
+
+[31:55] Gorlami. And he says it just like that. I love it. Anyway. I think I just put on uh I probably did put cheese on it.
+
+[32:03] For those of you that don't know, like most old school Italian people, Giuliano Bujali included, back when he was alive, would be horrified that I would put a fish product and a cheese product together on a flatbread and call it something. So we won't call it pizza. We'll call it like an American-style flatbread with certain ingredients. Anyway, so I believe it was neonata, uh, like a little bit, sparse amount of fresh mozzarella. I probably put on some grana of some kind, fired it off.
+
+[32:32] Uh I think I put mozzarella, maybe I didn't. And then the trick is is just like uh cracked it you you uh fry some eggs and then you put the fried eggs on uh and you eat it. That's all you need to do. Oh! Did I put a Rugal on that?
+
+[32:45] I probably put a ruble on that because Nastasi and I, and my family and I, so like so like when I eat at home and when I eat with Nastasia, which is pretty much all the pizza I ever eat, like we put greens on it. Cuz. When I was a kid, I never put greens on. Even as a young adult, I never put greens on. And then like, I don't know, like eight, nine years ago, it's just like, why would I have pizza without some greens on it?
+
+[33:09] Depends on the pizza for me. Like what? What pizza do you not want greens on? I think if it's uh a meat product on there, I want to have greens. But if it's uh more of a veggie pie, I don't need the greens.
+
+[33:18] Why? It's cuz. But it's like a cauliflower pizza or like you know, cauliflower pizza. What? What are you?
+
+[33:24] Oprah? Cauliflower pizza? Yeah. What? That is what?
+
+[33:31] Wait, wait, wait. Explain to me. Explain to me how cauliflower works on a pizza. You do like a white pie and you throw roasted cauliflower on it. It's delicious.
+
+[33:39] Like what shape is this cauliflower? You cut it in like thin slices. Okay. Yeah, it's good. I don't know.
+
+[33:45] Yeah, it's good. You know what I like? Like the eggplant slices from eggplant parm that are fried out, sliced in pieces, and put on pizza. That I like. It's also good.
+
+[33:53] Yeah. Cauliflower pizza? Yeah. You you're familiar with Oprah's new pizza that she's selling. I'm not talking about making the dough out of cauliflower or like rice.
+
+[34:00] You're familiar with that though, right? Oprah now sells a pizza where she's like, one third of the pizza's cauliflower. No, I hate that. But I have long enjoyed eating cauliflower before cauliflower became this weird thing now. Your kids can't even tell.
+
+[34:14] What weird thing is it now? Well, no, it's like everybody's like ricing cauliflower. Like you'd like to do it. Rice cauliflower's not terrible though. Yeah, I know.
+
+[34:20] Most people aren't using the stem. So you know, like they have to sell the florets to you. They gotta find something to do with the stem. Yeah. I also really like broccoli stem.
+
+[34:28] Yes. Broccoli stem's delicious. Yeah. Yeah. I have no problem with rice cauliflower.
+
+[34:33] I don't really like the texture of it. I'm just saying it's like the cauliflower being used to replace all these other things, like cauliflower risotto, cauliflower using cauliflower as a dough for pizza, you know. Yeah, cauliflower risotto, what's that? Rice cauliflower? Yeah, and then you make a quote and quote risotto out of it, but it's not.
+
+[34:48] What's the word risotto mean, you think? Exactly. Yeah. It's not coloursotto. Yeah, it's not like, yeah.
+
+[34:54] So, you know, I think I've said this on the f on the radio show before, but I use cauliflower as a oh, by the way, neonata is a uh fish, a tiny fish, neo newborn fish, uh neonata fish and pepper condiment from Calabria that you can get at Calluccio Brothers uh in New York City in Brooklyn. Uh it's hard to get even here, so you might have to go to their store. And they have the best baccala of any, it's not the season now, but come Christmas time. If you can make it out to Caluccio Brothers in Brooklyn, Brooklyn, Brooklyn, then um they have the thickest, biggest uh like baccala fillets I've ever seen. I was gonna buy one, but it would stink up my whole house.
+
+[35:36] Um wait, so what were we talking about? We're talking about cauliflower. Oh, yeah. So I would literally use that as a threat to my kids. I'd be like, what are you having tonight?
+
+[35:44] Cauliflower. Because like, I told you this story, right? Did I tell us on air where Booker was like, I don't like green vegetables. And so I was like, all right, I'll get cauliflower. So I got cauliflower, it's not green.
+
+[35:54] No. And I put cheese over it. This was another thing, you know. I was like, I steamed the whole head. I brought it out, it doesn't look like a vegetable, it looks like a human brain.
+
+[36:00] And then I pour like cheese sauce all over it, and breadcrumbs. Yeah. That's a win, right? Yes. Cauliflower, breadcrumbs, cheese sauce.
+
+[36:08] Yes. And the crying from both of them crying, screaming, you know. And ever since then, you know, both in English and Spanish, I'm like, they're like, Hamburguesas de cauliflor. They're like, ah, you can't even imagine how do you even make a cauliflower hamburger? Anyway.
+
+[36:27] Sure, somebody's tried. At the risk of earning the hammer's ire. Pfft, you already earned it, baby. Just by breathing. Wow.
+
+[36:36] Here's a second question. I successfully made a smooth emulsified sauce based on a method I thought I learned from the show, probably. Pressure cooked garlic for a long time, like 30 minutes, covered in oil, then blend a lot into a smooth emulsified sauce. It's worked a few times, but I must have forgotten a detail because my last few attempts the sauce is broken in a bad way, and I can't find the old episode where you talk about it. I don't cook it in oil, I cook it in milk.
+
+[36:58] And then the milk breaks, but the curds stay there. I drain off the liquid, brend blend the casein curds and the garlic with oil and salt, and that's how I make it. See whether that helps. That's how that's how I do it. Uh can't wait to hear how the laser project works out.
+
+[37:15] I hope it doesn't end up breaking your life goal of not catching on fire. Well, Dax has been lighting stuff on fire with the laser, but I have not yet caught on fire yet. Although the laser project is going well, I'm excited to have this like laser pointer. No one else cares about it except for apparently uh you, Timothy, Dax, and myself. No one else, no one else likes it.
+
+[37:34] Confirmed. Yeah. Well, Peter, just Peter, Peter, yeah, Peter doesn't care. Peter's care. Although we can use it in a presentation at the MoFad.
+
+[37:42] It'll be fun. Oh, hello. Yeah. Well, because what it the idea what I'm working on is like a laser projector where you can take their laser pointer and draw with it, and it stays on the surface. So, like, let's say we're doing a presentation in front of the legacy quilt, which you can describe that we're raising money for.
+
+[37:59] That's right. It is a massive quilt composed of 400 blocks. Each block represents one story of a contribution made by an African American to American cuisine. It will be a mind-blowing thing to look at. And the woman making it and her uh colleagues are incredible at Harlem Needle Arts.
+
+[38:16] That's true. Yeah, yeah. They are amazing. Um giant quilt, big stories. But the whole thing the whole reason is that in any like normal-sized exhibition, right, there's no way to like talk about the kind of breadth of contributions.
+
+[38:29] And so inherently, we have to cherry pick certain contributions and discuss them. So, in order to try to show that these stories are merely a part of a much larger quilt, right? Um, you know, we don't like to use the word like tapestry because not everything is kind of woven together. It's a bunch of actual contributions, not just some sort of mishmash. And so uh we had this quilt, but now imagine.
+
+[38:52] So if you're trying to explain the stuff in the quilt, imagine if you had this laser pointer and a docent could walk up and draw a circle around a particular thing, and it would stay there while you talked about it, and then you click and it goes away. That's pretty amazing. It's cool, right? Yeah. That's what I'm building.
+
+[39:06] What did you say, Stars? What mean thing did you say? You have a lot of questions. Go. I don't actually.
+
+[39:11] Okay. Uh I what? You have six, I thought. I don't know. You thought you said I didn't really bother reading them, but I don't know.
+
+[39:19] Uh okay, we get to the one I'm gonna go in backwards order. Uh oh. Claire writes in. This is the last one. This is why she calls it six, because she had so Claire of Vigetti and of wedding fame, friend of Nastasia, long time, ask her of ridiculous questions.
+
+[39:37] Friends with Claire. What is the best alcoholic beverage to order for a body conscious gal living in Mexico City? Well, uh, order enough of any alcohol and you will no longer be body conscious. But uh, I mean, all alcohol contains the exact same amount of calories per gram of alcohol. And all of the spirits that at least I normally drink have no added sugar in them, and so they are all identical.
+
+[40:05] Then the question is is what are you going to add to them? Uh and so um, I mean, just to put it in perspective, I don't I can't look it up right now, but uh let's say, you know, if you had uh I haven't done the math, but you a little bit of sugar is not gonna kill you. It's mainly one of the main problems with alcohol. There are studies I haven't looked at them recently, that if you drink, you will also eat more. That like your inhibitions to stop eating have also been turned off, and your desire to eat, so you end up eating a lot more when you're in a bit.
+
+[40:36] And so I think a lot of the excess calories are from excess food while you're also. Right. So I'm sure she's happy that you're sharing this. Yeah. Well, my point is is that when you are drinking, you also tend to eat more, and so maybe that's the issue.
+
+[40:58] Yeah. I would just drink what you like and then moderate the consumption of that. Yeah. But you know, whatever. All right.
+
+[41:07] Uh we also had uh, and this this was interesting. Hold a second. Um I tried to be better for this person. Let's see, where are they? Okay.
+
+[41:17] Steve, longtime listener. My wife will not let me listen to the podcast at home. Smart lady. Uh, and with six kids, I can't I can't find the me time I need to listen on the fly. At work, I'm in timing my Tuesday lunch breaks for the live podcast.
+
+[41:30] I understand you're uh a busy dad, if possible. It'd be great if you could try to get to the show on time, as I only get an hour's lunch. I will work on it. I will work on it, Steve. You're a loyal listener in Duluth.
+
+[41:39] Nastasia loves this question because she loves it when I feel bad. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Rub it in. Yeah.
+
+[41:46] Sorry, man. Loves it. It's really sad. She's really sad. And that's why you're laughing.
+
+[41:53] Just imagining sitting there. Watching the clock tick by. Yeah. Six kids. Six kids.
+
+[42:02] Angry wife. No one says she was angry. Just doesn't want to hear our voices in her freaking house. Which is fair. Fair.
+
+[42:13] Anyway. By the way, Halloween coming up. And for those of you that have not yet bought your candy, shame on you. But also there is still time to buy full-size candy. Remember, the only fun size is full size.
+
+[42:27] I have spent an inordinate amount of money on this year's uh Halloween candies. I will take a picture of it and post it out later. Nice. I love it. Do you go to Economy Candy?
+
+[42:37] Where do you go? No, I've I internet. So usually RightAid runs a deal close to Halloween, and they might start it now where it's like 50 cents per full-size bar, and then you can get a whole bunch of them. But uh they didn't this year, so I Amazon ordered it relatively early, and I paid a little more than 50 cents a bar. But like the just the look on kids' faces when they open up the door, and it's like full size.
+
+[42:59] Well, you must be known for that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we go through an inordinate amount of candy. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[43:04] Yeah. Nice. And then like the trick is is that I might I might have to go out. Last year I had to go out and replenish. Certain things are full size, but they're not really full size.
+
+[43:12] Like it's good to get a bunch of boxes of airheads because even a full-size airhead's not that big and it kind of fills the thing up. But I got like, you know, I got a lot of the good, I got a lot of the good stuff. What's your favorite candy at the Halloween? Well, my favorite candy bar is whatchamacallit, but it's impossible to find that now. Whatchamacallit?
+
+[43:28] Yeah. I put I put one box of my favorites in, which is paydays. Yeah, yeah. I love a payday. I don't know.
+
+[43:33] Whatchamacallit Scott. What about you, Stas? I like milk duds. Really? Mm-hmm.
+
+[43:38] I need a bunch of them this weekend. I like a milk dud. I enjoy milk dud. Uh okay. So what?
+
+[43:44] Matt, Matt, what's your favorite? Uh I I don't eat a lot of candy. I just don't. Oh, Jesus. Sorry.
+
+[43:51] Did you were you alive when you were a child? Yeah, but I still just pretty much went with like straight chocolate. Okay, so chocolate. I'm so special dark? I well now I just get a bunch of dark chocolate.
+
+[44:05] It's true. I don't yeah, okay. I don't think of that as candy. Mr. Fanny.
+
+[44:08] That doesn't have like fun marketing. I'm not attached to any. Single origin only. Single origin my butt. That's what comes in the thing.
+
+[44:13] You get Hershey's, you get Hershey Special Dark, you get Mr. Good bars, and you get Crunch. Yeah. Oh, maybe Stasia with the correct correction. All right.
+
+[44:25] Uh how do you think you pronounce that? Rorde. Right. Peter, you're good at people. Oh my god.
+
+[44:33] You also you just got R of a question. Ruby from Denmark that I'm gonna hand you because it is too long. Oh jeebus. I'd say Rari. Actually, just email it to me and I'll put it on next week's question.
+
+[44:44] Well, I don't know. Unless it's time sensitive. All right. This is about EC. I'm an enthusiastic home cook and big fan of uh existing conditions in the podcast.
+
+[44:51] I'm rereading uh liquid intelligence. Nastassi's like, why? Why? Why? Uh and I want to buy a cream whipping siphon for rapid infusion.
+
+[44:58] I figure that buying a secondhand EC is better than getting a $30 knockoff. True. Thirty uh uh the $30 knockoff, if you buy the wrong one, may kill you, like you killed that French blogger, whereas the EC one will not. Uh anything to watch out for buying a second hand on eBay, which model is best in your opinion? I don't really know all of the professional ones, like they're they're all slightly different.
+
+[45:16] I wouldn't bother getting a thermal one because then you can't heat it and they're kind of big for what they get. The trick is if you're gonna buy a half liter or a full liter, the heads are interchangeable. So the ultimate would be is if you could buy a he one head, make sure you have the gaskets, because that you need all the gaskets and the tip and everything else is pretty pretty bulletproof. Uh but if you're gonna only get one, I would probably get the depends on what you're gonna use it for. For rapid infusion, I would probably get the half liter unless you're gonna do large batches all the time.
+
+[45:44] Because especially for home use, a half liter is kind of a good size for infusing. But you know, that's I wouldn't get the the small, small one, those are ridiculous. Um I wouldn't get the I wouldn't get the thermal one for your application. Um anyway. Uh but they're all, like I say, pretty bulletproof.
+
+[46:01] Jason in Northern Virginia writes in about combis. Greetings uh to everyone present, and thanks for uh inspiring us over the years. I'm interested in your thoughts on combi ovens. Uh I frequently roast in my convection oven based on that experience and feedback from family members with Steve uh steam ovens, the Gaganao or the Mieli. By the way, Miele has a freaking lock on vacuum cleaners.
+
+[46:20] People who like are professional cleaners, like I feel like Miele must give them money because they're always like, your vacuum cleaner sucks. Why don't you own a Mieli? And it's like, because I don't have that kind of cash to spend on vacuum. They're like, it's a legacy vacuum machine uh cleaner, man. I'm like, dude, like, do they pay you?
+
+[46:38] Do they pay you? Anyway, uh, or Mieli. Uh I want a combi oven. I have my eye on the rationale combi master plus XS. I don't feel like I'd get a big benefit from the automation of the self-cooking center and may find the touchscreen irritating.
+
+[46:52] Also, I spoke to a chef, remember? We uh had a chef in at an event at MoFad the other day, he's like, my rationale cook self-cooking centers break down all the time. Now I'm not gonna blow them up, get them in trouble with their, but they're looking to actually go to a more simple-minded combi oven. So the thing with a combi oven is that a lot of the fancier ones, and by fancier I mean read rationale electrolux, a lot of the ones with a lot of the crazy features in them, those crazy features and the electronic boards involved are things that break. So you have a certain category.
+
+[47:23] Now at home, I don't know whether this is home or commercial, but at at home, you know, you're not getting as intensive of a use. They're not being abused as hard. You can make sure they have enough venting on the side. The old rationales used to break constantly because the electronic boards were too close to a heat to heat source, and so they would fry out. But that's heavy-duty use, constant.
+
+[47:42] If you're not gonna do that, it might last you forever. So like something that might break constantly in a commercial application might last a home person the rest of their lives. You know what I mean? It's like this like you can go buy uh commercial water slides that have been decommissioned from water slide parks because they're too used for a water slide, but for your house, they're gonna be good for the rest of your life, if that makes sense. I mean, how many times is your butt gonna go down that water slide?
+
+[48:07] You know what I'm saying? Uh but but back to the uh combi ovens. What's a weird comparison? I'm just saying. Just saying.
+
+[48:15] So, like uh like the thing with uh with the combi ovens is a lot of chefs are moving to kind of lower, like lower technology combi ovens so they can get the steam. If they don't need all of the widgetry, they can get the steam without the inherent uh fact that it might break. Um I remember you saying that this is back to the question. I remember you saying that commercial combi ovens are inefficient. You think so?
+
+[48:38] I mean, like the only way that those things uh um regulate their temperature is by hurling energy into the atmosphere. They are gonna heat the hell out of your house, and as a benefit, it's gonna cost you a lot to run it. Now, the gas ones, I mean, gas is real cheap. The electricity, meh, I don't know. And also, you need a lot of power to run electrical combi oven.
+
+[48:59] Uh well, the commercial ones, I don't know about the home ones. Um, but I feel like the benefits of steam and good temperature control are worth it, plus it cleans itself like a dishwasher, true. Uh, I comply with the venting requirements, maybe putting it under the same hood as the range. Due to the power draw of the larger combi ovens, I'd keep a regular oven for large things. Yeah, so the XS, which I guess stands for extra small.
+
+[49:14] I didn't get a chance to look it up. It's 50 amps at 240 volts. 50 amps at 240 volts. That's a lot. Yeah, that well, what is that?
+
+[49:28] That's 2,000, 10,000 something watts. Like 12,000 watts. Is that right? 12,000 watts. 120 light bulbs.
+
+[49:41] 12,000 watts. Or, you know, so yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot of power. Uh, any general thoughts on combi ovens or advice on other brands to consider? I mostly eat vegetables these days, but uh not sure where that balance will end up as time progresses.
+
+[49:56] I'm also interested in why you wouldn't install an induction uh cooktop at home but wouldn't want to ask a second question. I would. If I if I if if I could do it again, I like in I like induction. I mean, certain things are irritating. Like I like also having like a fire, but I use I use my induction cooktop a lot.
+
+[50:11] Uh, you know, it's easy to control. I you know, I use it. Um I am loath to provide a um recommendation on a specific combi oven just because I haven't used any of the modern ones or any of the smaller home ones, and I have not, nor will I ever recommend a piece of equipment I haven't used personally. Uh that said, I would take a serious and long look, because I don't I haven't looked in years at Paganao, and again, I've never used it to home one, but I would assume that someone who's making a home combi oven can put it into like ridiculous mode versus like the same way Tesla does, Nastasia's favorite thing, the Tesla, where you can put it in kind of ludicrous mode and then you're using a whole boat ton of energy. How scared did you get?
+
+[50:53] That's super scared. Uh especially with you know you at the wheel, you know, because you're crazy. But like uh, so we put uh you put it in ludicrous mode or put it in normal mode where you're using a normal amount of energy. And I don't know whether any modern combi ovens, they might, because very recently they started rating combi ovens based on their energy consumption, and so combi oven manufacturers might have included it's kind of like Volkswagen, you know, who lied about their energy consumption. They can tune the combi oven to not use as much energy, but then it's harder for them to do the low temperature stuff and to maintain the humidity exactly where they want.
+
+[51:26] So this is also my gripe with with home dishwashers. If you can hear me and you're a dishwasher dishwasher manufacturer, like what I want is a home slash commercial dishwasher, where it runs like a home dishwasher, where it is both gentle and energy efficient and quiet, except for when you're having a party and then it runs like a commercial dishwasher and goes crazy. Yeah, right? Like the way that most rich folks handle this is by getting two dishwashers. What a waste.
+
+[51:57] Yeah. Why not just be able to put my dishwasher in super energy inefficient mode just for parties? Right. You know? Anyway.
+
+[52:06] Uh all right. Here is the I'm gonna actually make it to the last question for today. You like that, Nastasia? You like that? And then I'm gonna be doing a few classics in the field.
+
+[52:16] I'm Jay. Uh by the way, this is they called you out. So, hello, Dave Hammer, Boothmaster Matt. How do you like that one? I'm keeping it.
+
+[52:24] Yeah. Uh, and the punching bag at present. Yeah. I'm Jay, straight up brain surgeon, straight up brain surgeon. Keep those hands in shape.
+
+[52:36] Don't burn those hands. Avid cook and collector of cooking lore and gadgetry, and a liker of liquid intelligence, which of course we all know Nastasia hates. Uh, for some demographics for Nastasia, I'm 45, married with three kids, and they all cook as well. Worked in a restaurant bar industry throughout college in front of back of house at various jobs, and I get whatever kitchen stuff I like as long as I don't bother my wife about her passions. I wonder what her passions are.
+
+[52:57] How do they interfere with each other? How do the cooking passions interfere with whatever the wife likes? I'm curious now. Yeah. Um, like what where where does where's the intersection?
+
+[53:09] Don't you don't you wonder? Anyway. Uh exceptions. Cookbooks. I have maybe 400, including liquid intelligence, and she gives me side eye for any boxes with the approximate shape of the book.
+
+[53:20] I understand this. Uh I'm in the process of moving to South Carolina and going to do a complete remodel of the existing circa 2007 kitchen, which is pretty weak. The root question is as follows with several caveats which you can ignore or use to spur uh discussion. Uh any advice on what equipment is a must-have and any specific ideas to implement. Budget is labile.
+
+[53:37] I like a labile budget. Uh I'm getting it plumbed with quarter-turned ball valves uh per prior advice. Yeah, do that. Just make sure your freaking plumber actually does it because God, God, I hate regular uh right angle stops with the twist. They always break.
+
+[53:52] They all a quarter turn is so nice. Your your plumbing will break. People, your plumbing fixtures will break. Why would you want to put yourself in a situation where you can't shut it off quickly and effectively? So dumb.
+
+[54:05] So dumb. Why do they make those god dang valves? Hate it. Uh obviously know about the work triangle. The equipment will be sub-zero, 60 inch wide, uh uh side-by-side fridge with separate freezer.
+
+[54:16] Now, let's say, I don't know, let's say your wife's an architect. Like mine. Architects hate fridges because even the what they call a countertop size fridge, countertop depth fridge, is actually deeper than a countertop. Check out, just for giggles, check out Liebhair, the same people who make like I think cranes and whatnot. Liebhair makes a true counter depth uh refrigerator where the actual door of the fridge is flush with counter depth.
+
+[54:45] Why is that? It's so weird. Well, I have this counter depth uh fridge by Lee Hair because my wife isn't a few years. No, I mean, why is it the fridges are always uh just a bit off? Because that drives me nuts.
+
+[54:55] Well, because so they can call it counter depth, but like uh the problem with the leap hair is it's very tall. So like small children can't make it to the top, or if you're, you know, you know, if you were sh like shorter, like then probably five, one or two, you probably couldn't make it to the to the top or back, right, without stepping on something, which is an irritant. Uh, but it's also shallow, so it's hard to put big things like a sheet tray with a turkey. You can kind of fit a half sheet tray in, but I think it's mainly for those depth reasons to kind of fit standard things into them. That said, it does look good, and I do like it.
+
+[55:29] It's got good temperature control. So take a look at the leap hair. And Wolf, I'm getting a range topper range with double ovens depending on space. I'm getting a uh Wolf's Combi oven CVAP as one of the ovens. It is not plumbed.
+
+[55:40] I have not looked at that one, but maybe our other listener could take a look at that one. I've not looked at it, I don't know anything about it. A plug-in induction burner, that's good. Warming drawer, good. Maybe a blue star salamander.
+
+[55:49] I looked at it, it has electricity. Why? Is it for the igniters? If it's just the igniters, fine. If not, you need to have some equipment that runs even when your electricity turns off.
+
+[55:59] Eventually, your electricity is gonna turn off and you're still gonna want to be able to cook. So make sure that even when the electricity is off, unless you're a full electric kitchen, if you actually have gas, make sure that you can still do some cooking even when your electricity is off. Um, do I need a Bain Marie? Eh. I mean, you have an immersion circulator, you say letter uh later.
+
+[56:18] I think it's gonna be kind of gilding the lily, and you can always just kind of improvise improvise things uh if you need it. I don't really want a fryer inside. I'm gonna fry outside if needed due to stinkslash films. Uh by the way, stink film is our next band. Yep.
+
+[56:32] And uh right, we're gonna talk about uh hoods later. Get yourself an outdoor fryer uh for sure if you're not gonna do it. Wiley has the Cajun fryer and he likes it. The problem with the Cajun fryer is it doesn't have uh good temperature control. If you're in an outside covered kitchen, I would get a regular commercial fryer and just update it for use in propane and build a cover for it.
+
+[56:52] No one has a decent, like fully automatic bezoval outdoor fryer that I can find. It would be nice because the Cajun fryer not having a temperature control is a little bit of a crimp. Uh the house doesn't have an outdoor space, so I have a full grill set up with uh green egg, wok burner, turkey fryer, pellet smoker, gas grill. Consider an outdoor, as I say, consider an outdoor dedicated fryer. Consider in your outdoor kitchen this hot, cold water.
+
+[57:16] Put hot and cold water to your outdoor kitchen and put a low boy fridge outside with a work top. The thing people don't have in their outdoor kitchen is a place to kind of prep things and a way to clean yourself off when you're outside. Hot and cold, right? Which you can stub out from your house and run with a hose if you don't want to bother plumbing hot all the way out there, uh, with a you know, some sort of a pit drain into it, and a refrigerator, that would be nice, right? Yeah, an outdoor fryer.
+
+[57:43] Uh I would also get, obviously, I would put seltzer in and get an ice machine. Here's a problem with ice machine. They're very energy inefficient, but if you have a nice bar, which you say you do, I would get look into getting an ice machine. My wife hates it because it's loud, right? The one that I have has what's called boardroom function, so you can press it and it turns off for four hours, which means that it doesn't make noise for four hours, or you could consider putting it on a timer so that it's off during dinner time or whenever your wife is near it and doesn't like the noise.
+
+[58:11] If your wife is like mine and doesn't like irritating noises because it is irritating. I just tune it out. The main thing you that you're gonna have a problem here is uh hoods. And then you ask me how many cubic feet per minute of evacuation is good. Currently, your range is not on the wall, but you're gonna be moving it to a wall.
+
+[58:29] All right, look it. Look it. Look at, look at, look at, look it. The issue with hoods is this. Uh I'm assuming you're gonna have insurance on your house.
+
+[58:37] And so if you're gonna have insurance on your house, you have to do things to the code. And every kitchen that I've ever built with serious hood in it, and I've built some kitchens with some serious hoods in it, I've never done what's legal in terms of uh makeup air. So all the air you suck out, you have to supply air for that, right? And so, um, and you know, I'm not gonna give you specific recommendations because you have to look at exactly how many BTUs, how wide they are. In general, it's gonna be easiest for you to stick to a hood that is six feet.
+
+[59:06] So try to get all your hot side in like in under six feet and get the hood as low as you can reasonably to do the bet the best extraction. You don't want any kind of kinks in your ductwork. You want your ductwork to go straight up. Also, put your fan on the outside of your house. Do not put the fan in your kitchen.
+
+[59:24] That's the main thing. Put the fan outside or at least in the attic, somewhere away. You want really want an exterior, uh, exterior up blast fan to do good stuff. And if you sounds like you're spending some money, so do it, right? Try to hide it so it doesn't look ugly on the outside or whatever.
+
+[59:41] But that is gonna make your life much quieter in the kitchen and gonna make everyone happier. I've always used very large-size fans. The reason that home hoods suck so much is the well, they don't suck. The fans are t a, they have zero extraction. B the fans are tiny, and because they're tiny, they have to spin at a very high speed, which makes a very irritating loud noise.
+
+[59:59] You're gonna want an exterior hood. But in a residential situation where you're in a house, you need to supply what's called makeup air, such that um you're not sucking uh all of your air-conditioned air out of, but also so that you don't suck fumes uh from things like your your boiler, your your boiler, or anything like that. They're worried about you possibly getting a blowout or whatever and getting carbon monoxide sucked through your house or other sort of bad things sucked through your house. So you definitely wanna supply makeup air, which makes it a little more complicated. But uh that and you otherwise, if you don't have makeup air, like it's something stupid.
+
+[1:00:35] Like I looked it up, I looked up the uh International Residential Code, and uh exhaust systems of more than 400 cubic feet per minute and greater have to have makeup air equal to the exhaust air and automatically open and close with the operation of the fan. And if you don't, they're not gonna be up to the residential code. And if they're not up to the residential code, if you do have a fire, you might have problems with your insurance. I don't think the the IRC for home hoods, as long as you don't call it a commercial hood, I do not think they have fire suppression requirements, but you might look into it anyway because fire suppression is a good thing, and you don't want to burn down your house. Now, that said, in the zero in the minus five minutes allotted, Matt, I got a couple minutes.
+
+[1:01:14] I mean, yeah, like five. Sweet. Time for, and Peter's gonna enjoy this one. Time for this week's what? Oh, I want to add pedal operated faucet sink.
+
+[1:01:24] Oh, hell yeah. Pedal operated faucet. You don't see enough, and it's so nice. And no one hooks it up the way they're should, even when they have it. Oh, one last thing before I go into the last thing.
+
+[1:01:29] Uh uh like next week is HRN's gala. Like, I don't know whether there's still tickets available. I don't even know where to go. But listen, when I was uh right out of college, I worked for asbestos attorneys. When I worked for asbestos attorneys, uh I was their database designer, but I used to be a paralegal and I interviewed all these people who died of mesothelioma as a result of asbestos uh exposure.
+
+[1:01:53] Uh and I said this on air, one of those people gave me his car when he died. That's the car that I took to my wedding. Um nineteen sixty seven or nine, I can't remember, Plymouth Valiant. Um sweet, sweet ride. Uh but uh we used to have these books that we would search through that had uh product advertisements for asbestos.
+
+[1:02:13] And so I used to search through them because the pictures were amazing, like you know, like really cool, like mid century, like graphically cool pictures. And one of them that I loved, I made into a t shirt like twenty five years ago, and it was for a product called Limpet Esbestis, and it said on it, It's sprayed Limpet asbestos, and then it said, No cutting, no no nailing, no whatever, it's sprayed. And then there's a picture of a guy spraying it inside of a school bus without a mask or anything, just a guy spraying asbestos. Oh my god. Right?
+
+[1:02:46] And so I made this t shirt when I you know, the old school way, like I I sit there and I I Xeroxed it out, exp you enlarged it on Xerox, exposed a frame, washed it out, did silk screening of the t shirt, and the t shirt finally died like last year. So I went on custom ink, and but the thing was I set it up such that anyone could buy it, but I think only like fifteen people or 11 or fifteen people have bought. I need to sell thirty by the end of next week, or all the orders can't donate to mopad or the t-shirt. I'm not making any money. It's not a money, it's not a donate.
+
+[1:03:13] I didn't set it up for me to make any money. I'm making zero money! But I just want people to order the t-shirt and spend their money on. It's not, it's like, do you want a t-shirt? It's not it's not an either-or situation, Nastasia.
+
+[1:03:28] Oh, so get both. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so I'm gonna figure out I'm gonna put it on on Twitter, on my Twitter, a link to the thing where you can buy this group order. And I'm gonna put on, I'm gonna put on, I'm gonna put what?
+
+[1:03:40] We've talked about MoFed. I'm talking about t-shirts now. Get off Zappos. What are you looking at? I can't even look at that.
+
+[1:03:47] It was like some stupid website. Like Nastasia has never once listened to what was I talking about? The asbestos t-shirt. What about it? About how you Xerox and the original.
+
+[1:03:58] What is it for? What's the company? Custom Inc. What no, what's the company? What's the asbestos company?
+
+[1:04:02] Oh, I don't know. Yeah, you don't know because you weren't listening. All right. So like the thing asbestos company, Peter. Sprayed limpet asbestos.
+
+[1:04:10] Anyway. So like uh also, like, we have some Gildan haters out there, for those of you that are no t-shirts. They are the crappiest. You chose them! They're the cheapest.
+
+[1:04:20] But like 80 cents, you chose them. They're the freaking same. If you look on the websites of people who actually manufacture t-shirts, they're like, they're actually made by the same people in the same factory. Uh, but like, the here's the thing. I'm gonna try to put on the anvils.
+
+[1:04:33] The problem is that I don't know how to change the order. I don't care. I will try. I thought American Peril went out of business with all the. It's a brand.
+
+[1:04:44] But it's not owned by that brand, yeah. By that terrible person. Alright, anyway. So I'm gonna put that on my Twitter. Look for it, Custom Ink Cooking Issues, sprayed Limpet asbestos on the on the Twitter.
+
+[1:04:54] You gotta order them or else nobody gets them. Nobody. Nobody. Now classics in the field, yeah. Alright, Giuliano Buggiali was a crazy son of a gun.
+
+[1:05:03] He died in May of this year, and he had one of the better names to say, Giuliano Bugiali. This book that I am gonna talk about today, I'm not gonna talk about his most famous book. His most famous book uh was his first book, and it was called The Fine Art of Italian Cooking. It was published in 1977. Uh, the one I'm gonna talk about is called Classic Techniques of Italian Cooking.
+
+[1:05:24] And the reason I love this book is it was given to me, it was the second cookbook that my mom ever bought me. I used to read all of my mom's cookbooks, which included, you know, the uh Julia Child, Simone Beck, Mastering the Art of French Cooking, uh, all of the Time Life Cooking of the World series, uh, the Woman's Home Encyclopedia of Cooking, which was amazing, women's, I forget the exact title, we'll talk about that one later. Uh The Gourmet's Best Desserts, all of that stuff. But uh the first book she bought me was Julia Child's The Way to Cook, which was, you know, kind of formative for me. I still make the Queen of Sheba cake out of that.
+
+[1:05:56] But the second book she ever bought me was Giuliano Buggiali's classic techniques of Italian cooking. She must have bought this for me in like 1990 or something like this. And um, it's a black and white, thick book. And I remember reading it and thinking, this guy's a nut job. Like a complete wing.
+
+[1:06:17] Like, when you read him, he is the most vitriolic writer. Because, and I'll just read a little bit from the prep preface. He goes, I stress authenticity. If I stress authenticity, if, and he does. If I stress authenticity, and this is where Peter's gonna be important for this discussion, uh, it is because I feel the authentic versions of dishes are the ones that have stood the test of time, even for centuries.
+
+[1:06:43] Any personal innovations, any personal innovations should stem from knowledge of the authentic traditional version. It is becoming increasingly possible to retain the authenticity of Italian cooking outside of Italy with greater availability of the proper ingredients, and is worth the extra time, extra is worth the extra effort to arrive at the traditional dish after you have prepared and tasted the original recipe. Then you can be more creative. What happens next is up to you. Which sounds like it makes sense, although he actually never ever wants you to change it because his core assumption is once you have made the original, of course you would never want to make anything else, right?
+
+[1:07:21] Uh and so and I don't imagine that he would want to use any ingredients that came over via the Columbian Exchange. So that's interesting. So he does rail against people thinking that it's how first of all, you gotta understand where he comes from. He's born in 1931, died this year. He's born in 1931, and uh he came to America, he was born in in Florence, he's a Florence, so you know Nastasi, with all that implies, being like like a guy, like a guy from Florence, an Italian chauvinist from Florence.
+
+[1:07:53] Chauvinist, not in the male chauvinist sense, but in the Italian chauvinist sense, uh only really likes Italian food. So he comes over here and he's basically washed out. He's living big night. If you've never seen Big Night, why are you listening to this instead of going to watch Big Night? Big night is maybe my favorite food movie of all times.
+
+[1:08:12] So he is a lot like uh, you know, uh the secundis, right? No, Primo, Primo. Primo's gonna be a good one. Primo is like which one is uh which one is uh Primo's the obstinate one. Tony Shaloub, yeah.
+
+[1:08:25] So he's a lot like Tony Shaloub, right? He wants to do things exactly, you know, kind of the way they are, and so he he comes to America and is a wash in just kind of what he considers BS Italian food, garbage Italian food. And so another guy like this is Tony May, the restauratura, which is a dumb word. It should be restaurant, shouldn't it? Restaurator is dumb.
+
+[1:08:44] That's what the real word is, but it's dumb. I hope it gets changed. But anyway. Everybody says restaurateur, so yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:08:50] So, anyway, so like Tony May, Italian Restaurator, in although he retired recently, like he also had similar gripes. So, like you could get Tony Mae, you could throw him into conniptions just by saying the words shrimp scampi. He's like, it's not shrimp scampi. He doesn't talk because he has like an Italian accent, which I'm not gonna try to mimic. He's like, it's not shrimp scampi!
+
+[1:09:09] Scampi is scampy and shrimp is shrimp. So he would go crazy, right? He would lose his mind. And so you'd be like, shrimp scampi. And Tony Mae's head would just explode.
+
+[1:09:21] He used to come to the French culinary and say sh and say how much he hated the idea of shrimp scampy over and over again. Anyway, so Bujali, I've been reading his book for years, right? And certain of my recipi my go-to recipes, he has a recipe that is for uh a pasta, and I completely bastardized it, which is gonna be terrible. It was an asparagus pasta. I I make it with broccoli because it's available all year.
+
+[1:09:42] I'll tell you the recipe right now, it's very easy. Uh saute some onion, chop up some onions, don't put garlic in it, or bujali will come back to from death and kill you. Come back to life and kill you. But saute some onions, saute it, chicken stock, throw in uh the broccoli with asparagus. He hates don't don't freaking, don't use broccoli if you don't want bujali's like ghost to come and kill you.
+
+[1:10:04] But I do broccoli. Throw the broccoli in, steam it, then blend that with blend, like after it's steamed, blend the whole thing in a blender. I add cheese, I don't think he does. I add some grana, salt, and pepper, and it makes a super creamy broccoli sauce that you can put onto like fine, like thinner, finer pastas. And it's delicious.
+
+[1:10:24] It's delicious. Cooking it in that would be good too. Yeah. Uh yeah, par cooking a little bit because it's already a very thick sauce. You could add more chicken stock.
+
+[1:10:32] I don't add that much chicken stock, so my sauce is relatively thick. But do you like it? But anyway, so he makes it with asparagus, and that's a sauce that I've made now for like 30 years, fundamentally. And also I didn't have the money for asparagus. So I told him once, I was like, I I met him maybe three times, and I told him I was like, I make your sauce all the time, but I don't have asparagus, so I make it with broccoli.
+
+[1:10:51] And he was like, Yeah. The good thing about him is this if you look at pictures of him in this book and all of his techniques. The thing I like about this book, as opposed to the the uh his more famous book, is that all of the techniques in here are illustrated with a zillion black and white photos of him doing stuff. Yeah, it reminds me of the Jacques Pepin book, actually. That I also love, right?
+
+[1:11:10] So if you look at his thing of making pasta, the joy, the look of joy on the man's face as he's making pasta is immense, right? Yeah. And the thing that was kind of endearing about him uh is that he would sit there. I once asked him, I was like, when they started making Lardo at Oto when Zach was starting making uh Lardo at Otto, I was like, oh, they're making Lardo at Oto now. Have you tried it?
+
+[1:11:32] He's like, yes. I was like, he's like, I was like, do you like it? He goes, No. There you go. No, because they added spices and he didn't want the spices.
+
+[1:11:39] Here's what he said that he, for all of his curmudgeonliness, which was real, that's the thing. So when I had met him, I'd already I met him in maybe 2004. I'd already been cooking from his book for like 14 years, right? And so he was very nice to me. I had dinner with him with Barbara Kafka, who was uh last week's um you know, classics in the field person.
+
+[1:11:59] I had dinner with him together, and he liked me because I liked, I think because I liked his book and was genuinely curious, and I was asking him a lot of questions. But he he was so hardcore, but and this is what Nastasi says about me, he would then insult me with a smile on his face. So he always had a smile on his face when he was insulting you or telling you that what you were doing was garbage. I'll give you some uh quotes from him. I'll give you two quotes.
+
+[1:12:28] You should check out his book, by the way. He has some super old school, like my um my uh chestnut, my Italian chestnut cake is his recipe that I make all the time, which is nice, but on the dry side, if you like Italian chestnut cakes. And if you're a big night fan, if you want to recreate the timpano thing, he has a pasticcio alla lepre, which is very close to that, which you can look at to do a full-on old school um thing. And what I was gonna get into if I had more time, Peter, well, but I'll I'll do his quotes last. The thing about authenticity, the thing about authenticity is that authenticity is fake, right?
+
+[1:13:01] There is no such thing as authenticity. So, like John McWater, who writes about English, language has a lot of the same thing. People try to codify a language, but language is an ever-moving target. Food is also an ever-moving target. That's what our whole exhibition of Chow is about.
+
+[1:13:15] Yeah, I mean, I would say authenticity requires also taking it to a time, a place, and a people, right? So you can be authentic to a particular moment or people, but if you're not giving that additional information, just something being purely objectively authentic, it's just like a nonsense idea. Right. And so he and he studied, Bujali studied um all of the eras that he could find of Italian cooking. So this is why he also says, We're not all tomato sauce and garlic.
+
+[1:13:43] In fact, that's not even the majority of our food. And he was interested in all the regions and all the times, but he was still stuck on this idea of authenticity, which to me seemed kind of weird. But I will tell you where it comes from. I'll read you a quote that will, and I think he misframed it in terms of authenticity. I'll first say this.
+
+[1:14:08] That's not true. My mother never cooked one egg, and the stuff other mothers make is not necessarily top food or even authentic. So what he's saying is not only is your mom's food bad, it's not even authentic to what he wants to do. But then here is where, here's where it is. Giuliano Bujali, throughout his life, saw himself as, and he he had maintained a cooking school in Italy and maintained a house here in the US and was back and forth.
+
+[1:14:34] But he saw himself as someone who was trying to maintain an idea, maintain a series and a battery of things, and then not have them bastardized. He was especially mad about French bastardization of um of foods and the perception of French as being the highest end cuisine when he was such a lover of the history of Italian. In fact, he hated fusion so much that uh this is from his New York Times obituary. They says, for my last meal, I want fusion cuisine and bastardize Italian food. Then I wouldn't be afraid to die.
+
+[1:15:07] That's what he said. But uh, but to give you an idea of what it is, he saw himself as a preservationist, and this is this is the key quote, and helped me understand him better. He said, on Italian cooks, he said in it in the Chicago Tribune in 1998: cooks season each dish with their ego. Meaning that it's your ego that's making you change the dish, and you can't respect something that was built up by a people and a time, at a time and a place over centuries. So please check out classic techniques of Italian cooking, cooking issues.
+
+[1:15:47] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org.
+
+[1:16:02] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:16:23] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Vicky Stevens writes We weren't happy with the way things turned out last season, so I made the call. Weedman's been a total game changer.
+
+[1:16:43] Fertilization, weed control, the whole nine yards. Our lawn has never looked better. The neighbors are so jealous they avoid me at the supermarket. It's fantastic. Go to Weedman.com.
+
+[1:16:57] Enter promo code Green and get one free service
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+[0:20] No esperes. Cambia te hoy a Cox. Requiere Cox Mobile Gig Unlimited Garantie de Presion including puzzles and cargoes. Velocidad of datos mobile se reduce as well as 20 gigas a mes. This episode is brought to you by Root Eleven Potato Chips.
+
+[0:34] Made with a secret recipe and superior ingredients. Their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. To learn more, visit RT11.com, the Mm-hmm. Hardcore is a new series from Heritage Radio Network. Over six episodes were taking a close look at the rebirth of American Cider.
+
+[0:59] Really, it wasn't until about 10 years ago that cider started to be revitalized in the United States. From the science of fermentation. So yeast, it's a fungus. It's a unisell fungus. To the magic of terroir.
+
+[1:16] What really excites us is thinking about communicating that very sort of spiritual aspect of knowing a piece of land. And I will die on that point. Subscribe to Hardcore wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Harder, host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:56] This is really late today. I'm sorry, Indiana. From Harris Pizzeria! Well, Roberta's Pizzeria! In Bushwick!
+
+[2:04] Jordan as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. We do not have Matt in the booth. We have Amanda. How are you doing, Amanda? I'm good.
+
+[2:10] I'm very excited. Nice. So, like what other shows do you engineer? So I've been with HRN for over a year, actually, which is pretty wild. Um, I usually do the Monday and Thursday shows, so you probably have heard me on Happy Hour.
+
+[2:25] Nice. Um Why food? Um, let's see. What others? When people ask you if there's a happy hour, you always say, I'm always happy.
+
+[2:34] And then they walk away. That's how it works when you're at a bar. I'm always happy! And then they leave. What what are your food predilections?
+
+[2:43] No pressure. Silence. Amanda, what do you like? What do you like doing? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know the question of me.
+
+[2:51] I'm sorry. I'm sorry, my food preferences? Yeah. I don't know. Anything that's yummy.
+
+[2:56] Okay, but do you cook or do you eat other people's cooking primarily? Uh I do a lot of the eating. I I'm a pretty small person, but um my stomach is it's it's a little bit scary how much I can eat, honestly. I like that. I appreciate that in a person.
+
+[3:12] I appreciate the ability to eat large quantities of food. It's a good it's a good skill. Yeah, yeah. So like what do you have anything in particular? Where did you eat recently that most excited you?
+
+[3:20] I'm just trying to get a handle on who you are here. Uh let's see. The most recent place that I went to out in K Town in Manhattan. There's a place called Gamiok. Yeah.
+
+[3:34] Um had some nice. Where is that? That's not the one that's up high, is it? Yes, it is. It is on the second floor.
+
+[3:40] Oh, you're fine. Oh, yeah, I don't think of the other. Yeah, yeah. Alright. Go ahead.
+
+[3:43] Go ahead. Go ahead. How was it? Um it was good. It was good.
+
+[3:46] Definitely really good. Um, I personally, I think I really like our cold noodles there. Um I had their bib when I was there. It wasn't as good as our cold noodles, but I mean, it's winter time now. Did you have it in the toll soap or not in the toll soap?
+
+[4:01] Tulsa, of course. Okay, nice. Strong. Uh this is my favorite cooking implement on earth is the stone bowl. I love the stone bowl.
+
+[4:09] When you get the crispy rice. Yeah, I don't know if you're aware of this, but you can go completely, you can completely erase it. You should not. Should not, right? But you can completely just kind of unmoor that piece of cooking equipment from like its cultural heritage.
+
+[4:23] And if you put like rice and then anything on top and an egg, good, it turns out. I've done almost any flavor combination that works with rice on the bottom and an egg on top, I have done, and almost all of them good. Can I just say real quick, eggs are just freaking magical? They are they are magical. This is an opinion shared by most of the people that I enjoy.
+
+[4:49] Vegans might not like eggs, or they might not eat eggs, but no one can deny that the egg is a is a is a mysterious and magical thing. You know? Life comes from within. So since you are hearing other voices, I will say that also in the studio, we got a full, full, you know, full boat full of people today. We have uh Rebecca, aka the Boondogler.
+
+[5:10] Ooh. Not a flack, not a flack. Doesn't like the word flack, but the boondoggle is better, is what you're saying. She is the she is the brand empresario of Booker and Dax, the boondoggler. Likes to take us on many a boondoggle.
+
+[5:29] Just try to keep you guys in line. And the irony is that you can call me the boondoggler. Yeah, we do. We have also in the studio, we have uh from the network cat. What are you uh what do you what are you what are you pushing today?
+
+[5:42] Oh, I'm just here to thank you for making cocktails at the gala. Do you want to know how much money we raised? Uh do tell. $78,000. That's amazing.
+
+[5:51] And if I hadn't been there, they would have raised 80. Would have been nice. And also in the studio, uh, we have John DeBerry. Known in the industry as JDB, formerly of PDT, former formerly of Mama Fuku. Yeah, formerly of Mama Fuku, now uh writer at large uh and starter of charities uh about uh social justice in the hospitality space, uh which we can talk about later.
+
+[6:17] But you're here to push yet another different thing from uh either the writing that you've been doing or the social justice stuff you've been doing. Uh what is it? Yeah, well, I've got this um non-alcoholic aperitif that is like basically launching this week online. It's been around in some restaurants and bars before that, but kind of this is the this is the week where it's happening. Um it's called Proto, and it's uh eventually going to be a line of different um products, but for now we're just launching with one.
+
+[6:45] It's called Ludlow Red, named after Ludlow Street in Lower East Side, where we both live. Doesn't taste like Ludlow Street, though. Doesn't taste like Ludless. Well, I don't know. I mean I do.
+
+[6:54] You ever face planted in Ludlow Street, Rebecca? No, but I do think that you bring up a really good point, John, that you and Dave actually are neighbors. We are. Lower reside. We passed by each other.
+
+[7:05] Yeah. So did you guys uh share the train coming over here earlier? Uh Rebecca is a terrible human being. Uh wait, wait. So let's let's start.
+
+[7:15] I I hear that we have a caller on the air. That is so cheap. Yes, we do have a call in the air. Uh Rebecca. Rebecca.
+
+[7:23] Wait, Rebecca. Not the boondoggler. She is not calling into her own channel. No, no, no. Oh, yeah.
+
+[7:29] Claire. Oh, Claire. Oh. Friend of friend of Nastasia and uh and classic button pusher, Claire. Hi, Claire.
+
+[7:39] Wedding officiant. Hi, Rebecca. I miss you. I miss you too. Oh my gosh, I miss everybody.
+
+[7:46] Okay. Okay, do you miss me? I was gonna leave that right there. And what is your question? Um, well, it's not so much a question, but I was listening in on the episode like around uh Halloween about the Count Chocolate debacle.
+
+[8:08] Okay. And I just wanted to call in and defend myself. Uh am I I need to know, first of all, so Claire is living, was living, is, was, is. Are you in Mexico City right now? I don't know.
+
+[8:28] I was there for a week on business. I don't listen. A week, a week. Most recently a week. Most recently a week.
+
+[8:36] Oh, so there was like two days when she wasn't here, and then another like month before that? She was here. Okay, okay, okay. So the point being a regular boarder at Nastasia's house. With rules.
+
+[8:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh something I did not know. I'm just giving everyone the thing. Uh I had always thought that Count Choquio, because I don't really care about Count Choccio personally, but Nastasia Lopez here says that Count Choccio is actually a seasonal product, like Malomars, but for not for the same reason. Yes.
+
+[9:03] For those of you that don't know what a Malamar is, it's a marshmallow on a graham cracker with chocolate, and Nabisco only sells them in the winter because in trucks they melt. Uh so I did not know that count chocula, which is Malamar, a good product, by the way. It's her favorite cereal. Oh, yeah, count chocolate. No, no, wait.
+
+[9:20] So Nastasia Lopez insists that Count Chocula, I was more of a booberry guy. I hate both of those. Okay. You're what are you a Frankenberry? Or do you not like any of the monster cereals?
+
+[9:31] No monsters, no fruit in cereal. What? Like no fake fruit flavors. What? Oh, it's the worst, yeah.
+
+[9:37] What about Fruit Loops? No. Whoa, what about Applejacks? No. Do you think the answer is gonna be different if you say another one?
+
+[9:44] Well, I keep trying to say these things that taste good and then have what about Captain Crunch with Crunch berries? No. No. Take them out. I don't like that either.
+
+[9:53] Okay. Yet you don't mind that powdery cocoa flavor in a chocolate cereal. I don't like that either. So what the hell do you like? I like only plain Cheerios.
+
+[10:04] Yeah, and honey nut. Delicious. I like honey nut cell. I like honey. I like honeycomb.
+
+[10:09] Honeycomb is a good cereal. Yeah. The problem with all of this variety of cereal, John, is that I find that it it kind of scrapes the roof of your mouth. Captain Crunch is the worst. Might as well eat sandpaper.
+
+[10:19] Like the way it scraps. Or it leaves like a film on the roof of your mouth. Why is that? I I don't know. I think that's probably your body parts that have been created.
+
+[10:27] Rejecting it. It's your body rejecting it. I've looked it up. There's not that much fat. Captain Crunch does leave a greasy film in your mouth.
+
+[10:33] And I don't really understand. That's why I'm talking about it. Because it's not like doped full of grease. I think I've read, I haven't read it recently. But anyway, so back onto Cow Chocula.
+
+[10:42] Nastasia Lopez, by the way, grown ass woman, has her own freaking apartment and purchases Count Chocula for her own use and says, You have the run of my apartment. I don't expect you to pay rent. I don't really even expect you to clean up. I have certain rules. I've embroidered them on a pillow.
+
+[11:00] Am I accurate so far? I have to. I need to give everyone the lay. Lay of the land. So then I'm not gonna go through those rules because it got people in trouble.
+
+[11:12] Okay, hey, hold up. I'm not like a rando. Hold up. The rules apply to everyone, not just Randos. And she said specifically, I have in my house at this time, Count Chocula.
+
+[11:26] Please do not eat it. I have put it in a special cupboard. Yes, I did. Okay. I missed that rule.
+
+[11:33] It wasn't on the pillow. You know why? Because you're constantly texting. She was she was more. She was oh on Tinder.
+
+[11:43] Same. It's all the same to me. Like, she like one time Nastasia Lopez and Claire were borrowing my pickup truck. My pickup truck may or may not have had brakes at the time. The rear of the pickup truck may or may not have been attached to the rear axle of the of the thing at that time.
+
+[11:58] I said to Nastasia, I was like, listen, you are gonna be driving up to Connecticut. I know you hate tolls as much as I do, so you're not gonna take the Triborough Bridge, which people now call the RFK. You're gonna take, you're gonna take like third or Willis. I always forget which way is which. I just drive it by memory, right?
+
+[12:14] And you're gonna go onto the Bruckner Boulevard. I was like, now listen, your GPS is going to lie to you and tell you you need to make a right turn. Or left. Where I forget what it GPS always says. It is wrong.
+
+[12:25] Here's what needs to happen. I was like, Claire, I need you to pay attention during this 13 seconds where I explain this one turn that I'm telling you your GPS is gonna get wrong. She's like, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. Claire, Nastasia's gonna be driving a dangerous pickup truck with no brakes. I need you to focus because you're gonna be the navigator.
+
+[12:46] Focus! I'm telling you, please! Swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. And they got on, they got over into the Bronx like I told them they would, and they did not make it onto the Bruckner. They stayed on that lower roadway and got like vectored off into nowhere.
+
+[13:01] I got stuck there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god. So this is, I'm sure what was happening. Please don't eat my cow choculus.
+
+[13:09] Swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. Alright, now defend yourself. Oh my god. Is that the whole story? Yeah.
+
+[13:19] Well, she ate it on a train. She also, by the way, I don't know if I'm gonna do this up, but if you're calling in, I think this is fair game. Now, if you have a job, let's say you you are like like an owner of a small business, let's say Booker and Dax, like Nastasia is. Okay? And you make your own money, right?
+
+[13:38] You are your own boss, you have your own apartment. Okay. Are you allowed to buy some sort of a face cream to make yourself feel good? Yes. Are you allowed to say this is my face cream?
+
+[13:53] Oh my gosh. Yeah, I I used her stupid BLOG recherching. And she said, Nastasia was like, don't use my face cream. Yeah, that's on the case. Claire uses the face cream and then has the nerve, the stones, the rocks, to say to Nastasia, Will you use too much of this face cream anyway.
+
+[14:11] It's Nastasia's cream! She bought it with her own money and then she earned. Was this P50? Yeah. Oh, that's real bad.
+
+[14:18] I used to be amazing. Okay, defend yourself. Is it a is it a tub style face cream? And Dave, I just want to say that stock. Very exciting.
+
+[14:27] Didn't I buy you a brand new bigger bottle when I left? Was it the identical face cream? Yeah, I bought her a whole new bottle, like a hundred dollar bottle. And I was delighted to do that. I'm just trying to say, why don't you stay away from people's like toiletry?
+
+[14:42] Look, it's one thing like it's one thing you're like, oh god, I forgot to bring on them when I'm there. I forgot to bring toothpaste. So I'm gonna use a little bit of your cold gate. Cost two bucks. Nobody cares about their colgate.
+
+[14:53] Right. You know what I mean? It's like, just don't touch it to your actual toothbrush, please. You know what I mean? But it's like, you you're you're everyone, look, look, I don't even you can tell by my face.
+
+[15:04] I use no lotions or creams. I hadn't shaved in like two weeks. I shaved it off, and my face was like just a bloodstream this morning. But it was like the entire layer of your skin. We're back to bathroom issues.
+
+[15:15] But like, you just don't mess with people's people are confected to their face creams. I thought you had a question about Mezcal and able-bodied women. What? Well, hold on. I just want to say on Count Chocolate that when I left, every time I say it sausages, I always send gifts.
+
+[15:34] And little did she know, I did eat like a fourth of her bag of count chocolate. But then, when she got home from China, guess what was waiting for her? Four boxes of limited edition count chocolate. Okay, Claire, Claire, Claire. If you punch someone in the face, giving them a package of band-aids is not a fix.
+
+[15:54] I don't know. I mean, Nastasia got three whole boxes. Yeah, it sounds like kind of a deal. Nastasia can afford Cal chocolate. Shut up.
+
+[16:04] Is this the first time a caller has told you to shut up? If it came with a note they say, I'm so sorry. I you know what? If you had literally just said, I've had this argument with Nastasi so many times and brought you up, Claire. If she had if if Claire had just said, you know what?
+
+[16:21] That sucked. I'm sorry. And then bought the count chocolate, win. That's what I did. Did she say she sucked?
+
+[16:29] No, she said. I didn't say I sucked because that's negative self-talk, and it's not true. No. But I made a mistake. I said suck.
+
+[16:41] Sorry. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have done it. Oops, you made a mistake. That's all.
+
+[16:46] Making mistakes is never fun. You say, oops, I made a mistake. That's all. Freaking mistakes they can happen to anyone. Remember that commercial?
+
+[16:55] Anyone? Anyone? I thought you were speaking that up. Go look at uh 1970s public service announcements. And there's one, and uh, and it's like it's a bunch of kids, uh, cartoon kids who make mistakes and then get real upset, and then they go into the oops, I made a mistake song.
+
+[17:11] And Nastasi and I sing this PSA sometimes. It's like, you know, what is it? She says like building blocks. And it starts with, I really liked it. Like, because they were like trying to like go outside of their comfort zone and like do These are kids.
+
+[17:27] They liked it. Like building block towers new for them. Uh, you know, I was drawing on some paper. And then like, you know, she messes up the picture that she's drawing on the paper and she starts crying, and then the oops it look it up, please. It'll help you, uh the child and you.
+
+[17:42] Anyway, uh, so you had a question about Mezcal, did you? Yeah, so my question is why do different mezcals taste so different if they're all from Agave? John Deberry, I'm gonna let you answer this. Oh really? Uh I didn't brush up on my mezcal.
+
+[17:59] You don't need to brush up. They taste different because they're processes. There are different species of plants for one. There's different yeah, right. Different spe different roasting procedures, different fermentation strains.
+
+[18:09] No one really says different donkeys on the tahona. Yeah, yeah, different donkeys. Different distillation practices. I heard that the mezcal master also makes a difference. Especially if they're a woman.
+
+[18:22] Uh well, I don't know whether the gender is going I I like any I like any like female distillation because it's a it what it's a highly gendered and should not be feeled, but I don't know that the actual gender is going to affect the finished product so much as I wish there were more women master distillers. What do you think about this, Jim? I think that's correct. Yeah. Although I don't know.
+
+[18:46] I feel like it's a certain perspective you bring as I I'm speaking as not a woman, but like as a woman, as a as a non-woman, um I feel like there's a certain point of view that is well, like you said, there's not enough women representing it in the in the industry, and I think that if you're a master distiller, you're whatever you make is an expression of who you are as a person. And if the kind of person you are is underrepresented, then you're gonna have a more unique and interesting product as a result. Yeah, and you have to work harder because yeah. Wait, Claire, it sounds like you had more to say on that though. Like, especially.
+
+[19:20] What have you done? Is there like particular mezcal that's made by a woman that you like? Wait, what? Is that that was a really fast question. Wait, what?
+
+[19:29] Is there is there a particular Mescal that you're having in mind that's produced that's produced by a woman? You know, like any examples or favorites. Yeah. Well, so I was just in Oaxaca and I did a teaching, and there was one that was made, and I can't recall the name. I can send it and we can put it in the show notes.
+
+[19:50] But it was made by a woman, and I tasted probably like seven or eight different types, and this one literally tasted like like heavily of caramel. And I asked the the guy, he said, like, why is this? And he was like, Because it's made by a woman. He was like, This is my favorite medical. There's no other medical that tastes like this, and like it only tastes like this when she fit.
+
+[20:10] Is it because at men the testosterone makes you use too much smoke? So it's just overpowers everything. Is that it? Well, Tom D. We love you, Claire.
+
+[20:19] Goodbye. This episode is brought to you by Root Eleven Potato Chips. From the moment Route Eleven dropped their first batch of chips back in the early days of 1992, they understood their destiny as a high quality producer. Instead of succumbing to the frenzy of mass production, they took advantage of their small size and made chipping a personal art form. The payoff was immediate.
+
+[20:51] An incredible potato chip. With a secret recipe and superior ingredients, their mission is to make an outstanding product in a safe and clean environment. In this world of uncertainty that we live in, Route 11 potato chips believe comfort food can be just that. Know where your food comes from. To learn more, visit RT11.com.
+
+[21:14] Alright, uh, I was gonna let me let me just rip some quick ones. Call her, you're on the air. I promise you, call her. Unless there is something very strange happens, this will not go the same way the last call did. I think our last caller just got disconnected.
+
+[21:31] Uh they hung up. Alright, well, before you answer a question, John, let's taste uh no no steaks here. They're not a prototype. What does proto mean? Well, it's a kind of refers to like kind of being the first of its kind since it's in its own category.
+
+[21:46] It's not really it's not a spirit, it's not a mixer, it's not like a cocktail. Kind of is a cocktail, it's built like a cocktail in the same way. I think that's a goofy word, don't you think of it? It's a it's the best word I've come across so far. Um what uh what's the base here?
+
+[22:02] It's water. I mean, I mean like like what's just how do you how do you go about building well, yeah. So I, you know, I was like a big Omaro nerd, so I had like this uncomfortable amount of botanical sitting in my kitchen, and I was writing my book last year, and sort of as a way of procrastinating, I sort of fucked around with cold cold infusions. Oh, sorry. Uh with yeah, I get one per show, right?
+
+[22:25] Yeah. This is an HR and happy hour. You know Jim Lady where they where they where Jim Lathey talks, they keep their finger on the bleep button and release it when he's not cursing. I don't know who that is, but yikes. He's a cocktail guy, not a red guy.
+
+[22:42] John DeBerry is. Go ahead. I'm not where your bread guides are. Um so, and I was doing I did some cold infusions of botanicals into water uh and then blended them to create something that I thought was was delicious. And it's sort of based on the uh I love roasted dandelion root tea, I love licorice tea.
+
+[22:58] Drinking those individually, so I thought maybe how do you build like a full-fledged cocktail kind of thing around that? So I added blackberries, black pepper is a really great way to use really good thing to use in um like NA drinks to kind of re replicate that heat, that spice from non-alcoholic for you people. Yeah. Non-alk, yeah. Um and then threw in some florals, uh rose, chrysanthemum, honeysuckle.
+
+[23:20] That's a good word. Chrysanthemum? Honey suckle. Honeysuckle? Honeysuckle.
+
+[23:25] The way you say it is beautiful. Yeah. It's like ASR. So how do you ever where do you get that stuff? Well, I bought the dry, I bought most of the dry goods at Calustian's uh but then when you go to a full scale, you can basically have people to do those dry, those cold and cold extractions into water for you.
+
+[23:42] They'll do a better job. Yeah. Well, it's like I think the thing is that Calustians like those the plastic bags that they're in are obviously semi-gas permeated. Well, they make them you can they there's like a room to the side where they make where they do all the the packaging. So they have all the dry yeah, so it's like not it's very close to where that's gets sold.
+
+[24:03] So there is uh there's a overlap. An overarching kind of everyone knows that the great stuff. Love Calusteans. Love Calustians. Have you read the captions on their products?
+
+[24:13] Some of them are out of control. Like like like what they're just like they just make these really wild health claims. Like gummies out of control? Uh yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:22] Uh they're just really casually gummies. They're just really amusing. Um and have a lot of someone have a lot of detail um about how they're how these botanicals are used and their benefits. It's it's you can spend a lot of time reading them. Hey, we got another uh caller on the line.
+
+[24:37] Caller, you're on the air. Uh hello. Caller. Hello. Hi.
+
+[24:44] Hey David, it's uh you're from DC area. How are you doing? So uh two things. Number one, I called over the summer asking you about making pizza on a cowboy grill. Okay, how'd it work out?
+
+[24:58] Well, so I didn't end up doing that. I I ended up caving and buying uh one of those um the pizza ovens, so I got the Uni Pro. Yeah, yeah, and uh how how's the recovery time on that thing? Excellent. Excellent.
+
+[25:11] I yeah, just wanted to you know give that recommendation. But really, I wanted to ask you, I'll be in New Year's uh in uh the city for a wedding on New Year's Eve. Um are you guys doing anything at the bar? I believe that we are going to do a buyout, but I don't think we've announced it yet. Last year's buyout was a lot of fun because it was just I mean, there were I think some cocktails, but it was mainly like saber saber saber saber saber saber saber saber saber saber.
+
+[25:36] Jack pulled out the saber ring that I made, you know, years ago. Remember the saber ring? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So like it's I think it's the saber ring technique that has the least amount of injuries, which is surprising coming from from you.
+
+[25:46] But yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds like an interesting business. You know what I wanted? You know what I you know what I wanted to do? No, no, I can't, because the problem with this with the ring is if you use it wrong, it's bad real bad.
+
+[25:57] Like Aaron Polski to bring him up again two times in one show at Booker and Dax sliced the hell out of his hand because he didn't have his thumb in the right position, and so he had it like where the he scraped it right over the broken bottle. I think it was there actually. And he started bleeding all over our floor. Oh, and I was like, away from the ice away from the ice You know what I mean. Like I feel like the actual knife sabering is way worse.
+
+[26:24] Although it's good to know there's a line with the liability. Like that's the place. Well you but the thing is like all like most like quote unquote champagne sabers are all dull. Like the career not Kareem Machines. The cream machine?
+
+[26:35] The designer? Which machine is it? Anyway, like uh his is relatively dull because you you don't need a sharp blade but yet most people do it with a kitchen knife. And then if you're drunk and let's say you let go of a kitchen knife that you're swinging about it can be uh bad manslaughter. What what?
+
+[26:53] It's called manslaughter. Oh only if they're dead. Yeah. Uh but yes we'll probably do something. There will be cocktails and there will be I don't know when we're gonna announce it probably soon.
+
+[27:03] We'll probably I think we'll probably announce it probably uh after Black Friday once it's all set up speaking of Black Friday Booker and Bax is gonna do some news on Black Friday. Anyway you should come by is their wedding on New Year's Eve who does that it's on New Year's Eve. I don't know not to get into memory politics on there. But yeah it's gonna be uptown and I'm not from New York and I've never been there for New Year's Eve. Is it insane to try to get from uptown down to where you guys are I don't know I'm always holed up like I used to live three blocks from the ball drop and I never once went just to give you an idea.
+
+[27:39] Yeah I like what happens is the entire midtown gets blocked and shut so like I don't know how the FDR is or or the that's the the whole city's unlocked down basically it's don't go anywhere. I mean but the subways work right there I would take the train before a car yeah like the six that I'm sorry the uh the the F line doesn't go through it goes past Bryant. I'd be careful of the A line, which goes right through Times Square, or the one. Take the 456. I would take either the 456, which is the other side of the island, or the or the the orange lines, which go down 6th Avenue because there's going to be a lot of police presence there, but they the actual lockdown isn't, I think all the time.
+
+[28:21] I think the trains just don't stop at any of the 42nd Street stops. Yeah. I think that's what happens. Yeah. But anyway, uh once you're down in our neighborhood, it's actually quite mellow.
+
+[28:30] It like like other neighborhoods are mellow other than the actual Times Square area. And even the dive bar I used to go to on New Year's Eve, which was on 9th Avenue, was mellow because no one who is a tourist need to go there. You know what I mean? So I worked at PDT on New Year's Eve. I like requested to do it, it's the most fun.
+
+[28:48] There's like no five people come in. Was it a buyout? No. No. See, buyouts on New Year's Eve are fun because it's always like it's people who want to be there, which is nice.
+
+[28:56] You know what I mean? Uh well, no, as opposed to people who happen upon you may or may not like what you're doing. So like you know that if someone goes to a buyout, there it is. It's a home run. Yeah.
+
+[29:04] So I think the buyout's gonna start at like nine or something like that. You know, okay, so then you'll sell tickets to the site? Yeah, most likely, yes. Don't hold me to it, but most likely, yes. Thanks a lot.
+
+[29:17] Thank you. Hey, listen, also, like I think when you get married, you should not necessarily get married on a holiday. I think that you should let people have their holidays. And then I'm with you on this one. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:30] Yeah. Alright, all right. Dave, I feel like you should have a whole episode dedicated to weddings. Like, I feel like you have a lot of good knowledge and opinions. I do have a lot of opinions.
+
+[29:41] I thought you would say subways. I was excited for that. I have a lot of opinions, some good, some bad. So let's talk, let's talk about proto. Yes.
+
+[29:50] So what do you what are your thoughts? What is this game? Like, what are the acid bases in it? There's a little bit of acetic. Take balsamic vinegar.
+
+[29:55] So yeah, so it's acetic. Yeah, and then there's acid from the blackberry. Yeah, yeah. And so how much blackberry is in it? Like like like uh like do you have to like I had to put a juice statement on it?
+
+[30:03] It's 34% blackberry juice. Cool. I like it. Delightful. Yeah, it's very good.
+
+[30:08] So what do you what do you find people are most often leak like so uh a pair of teeth obviously do you dope it with a lot of glycerin or no? Nope. Have you doped it with glycerin to taste what happens? Yeah. No.
+
+[30:19] There may be some glycerin in the in the extracts themselves, but it's like negligible. Oh my god, I just noticed you're shirt. Oh uh yeah, we won't be discussing that either. But uh Yeah, I've been wondering what would happen, like if you would carb it like uh I I like if you come by the bar sometime, I have nothing but glycerin at the bar. Let's I'd love I'd be interested to see what happens with glycerin, but I think it's good.
+
+[30:45] So it's like uh do you expect people to use this in like non-alcohols, drink straight? It's pretty versatile actually. I like to drink it straight, but it's also good with champagne, like uh kind of as a curious, like a cassis replacement. Have you tried it in sparkling martinellies to have it go? No, I haven't.
+
+[30:59] It sounds like it might be a little cloying. Just because of the martinellis. So they have a dry, do they have a dry non-alcoholic sparkling cider? Anyone? I don't think so.
+
+[31:08] Why not? They should. They should. Maybe maybe like a French one or something. I feel like there's all apple.
+
+[31:14] Oh yeah, there's an there's like a Norman apple cider, right? I I forgot the name. But actually, there is one now that you mention it. But it's not super dry. It's not like a some basque stuff.
+
+[31:21] It's like pretty much. Yeah, because I wouldn't want I would want something that had mainly apple acids, not one that had gone acetic because you already have like an acetic base here. So in a carbo, it's not so much acetic acid that I think it would get blasted out in a carb. I think it's like like r you know, right there. Uh is that what happens?
+
+[31:37] Like this, it's a what's what's special about acetic acid that makes it. Well, it's volatile. Yeah. So like it like it affects you more on your nose. That's why, like, you know, uh like the kombucha smells like that.
+
+[31:44] Yeah. Or like, you know, like if you have like uh, you know, the the drinking vinegars that like Andy Andy Rickers is working on, like when those are carbonated, they will really pop because the the acid's volatile anyway. So it's like, and I think that not necessarily that the presence on your tongue is so much more, but the presence on your nose is more, it's kind of more of an acid nose. And you'll you you know, in any sort of cider that has a heavy acetic note, you can get it on the on the nose or in natural wines that have gone slightly acetic, you know, you can get that like pow. But like, so if you doubled it, I think it would be too much.
+
+[32:21] But if like you use a non-acetic base with this, I think it would be good. Anyway, I think it's very informative. I enjoy it. How what's the what's the price of this? Uh well, I'm doing a gift set for for the holidays.
+
+[32:32] It's uh two bottles with with uh gift tubes, some other goodies thrown in. It's beautiful, shipping tax everything is 70. Tubes. It's a series of tubes. Yeah, got its tubes tied.
+
+[32:41] The internet, ooh, and uh, and uh and they buy it where drinkproto.com. Drinkproto.com. All right. So let me read rip through some questions until Amanda kicks me off the air here, uh, which is probably soon because I don't think she likes the way she was cheated at the top of the show. Anyway, uh Tyler writes in uh hey Dave and Nastasia.
+
+[33:02] My wife and I will be in New York City on Saturday and plan to come to existing conditions when it opens, and you must try things on the menu at the moment. Oh, so you missed it. No, dem apples wasn't on the menu. We froze the juice uh and we saved it, but grape stomp is the exact same drink, just Concord grapes instead of apples. So I recommend having the grape stomp.
+
+[33:23] We we still are getting good fresh Concords in, and uh it's good. Anyway. Uh and for Anastasia's demographic tracking, Tyler's 32 male lives in Washington, DC, and his wife tolerates but doesn't encourage the accumulation of kitchen tools and appliances. He offered all that up. Wow.
+
+[33:40] Matt would like to know our take on the season as you go bit of conventional wisdom. Season as you go. No one's gonna do the whistle? Nope. Uh it's whistle as you it's to tune a whistle.
+
+[33:53] No, I know. I I sang it in my head, but I didn't want to confuse it. Uh I can see how the timing of salt additions can make a difference, but how important is it in reality? Matt, well, listen, the conventional wisdom is if you're gonna reduce something or cook something for a long time, you either don't salt it or you viciously under salt it because you have no idea how much reduction is gonna take place. However, if things are not going to be reduced or cooked for a long time, I'm a believer in seasoning components to their uh to their correct seasoning, so that no matter what order you eat things or how you eat things, it all tastes good.
+
+[34:25] Uh which is why when people say, Well, I oversalted this one thing and undersalted this other thing. I hate that. I hate that. Uh another thing I will say is this if you salt something today, and you eat it tomorrow, most likely tomorrow it wouldn't need salt. Because unless you've been seasoning from the very beginning of cooking, um, like you tend to taste the exterior salt on something.
+
+[34:46] Let's say a pasta, let's say you have a pasta, make a pasta. In general, don't you notice the second day it needs more salt, even if it didn't need salt the first day? Because the salt like it's a sort of sort of sort of sort of site. It still seeps in. It seeps in.
+
+[34:56] And so like you don't perceive as much of it, and you need more of that exterior salt to get the same salt hit. Right? Because it's soaks in. Gotta get that hit. Gotta get that salt hit.
+
+[35:05] Whereas, like, soups in general stay at a similar level, a level of saltiness because the salt's already been in liquid form all the way through. Alright. Jane writes in from Toronto on preserved lemons. I've heard many times over how invaluable it is to have preserved lemons on hand. Oh, only if you cook with preserved lemons.
+
+[35:24] Many people live their whole life without ever even tasting a preserved lemons. Lemon. You know what I'm saying? I like preserved lemons. I think it's a good thing to have, but I I mean, I don't think that you're living an impoverished life if you don't have preserved lemons.
+
+[35:36] I love preserved lemons. One of my favorite drinks that I've ever made. Corsair. Corsair. Preserved lemon drink.
+
+[35:41] So I'm not saying anything negative. Also from Calistians. That's what we do buy them from there instead of making them because you know why? We lazy. I've heard many times how invaluable it is to have preserved lemons on hand, but every time I try to make them myself, they never release quite enough liquid.
+
+[35:54] And consequently I worry about them going bad. All the recipes I've seen seem to suggest that the lemon should release enough juice to be almost covered, but I haven't seen that happen in any of my attempts. Do you think it's a lemon issue? Or am I not adding enough salt? Should I just add some extra salt, water, lemon juice?
+
+[36:08] I would add a little extra lemon juice. Also, I don't know the lemons you're using. Like are you have really thick skinned lemons? I think most of the juice isn't coming out of the skin. Most of the juice is coming out of the pulp.
+
+[36:17] So if you have like those very thick skin, like California style lemons, they probably won't release as much. Are you scoring it? How far in are you scoring it? Are you doing full halves? Are you doing like the more traditional, like quarter it but not separate it and put the salt in the middle?
+
+[36:31] That's gonna release the juice faster. But I wouldn't be afraid to add a little more lemon juice on top to put, or you know what? Just push it down to push it, push it. Push it down. Yeah, push it down until it makes a little more juice and work.
+
+[36:42] That should work. Let me know what happens. Uh John DeBerry, do you have any good uses for way? Whey? Whey.
+
+[36:51] Uh I do not. No. Brandy. Not even in a cocktail. Ah, I've used it in way, please.
+
+[36:57] Milk wash. Listen. Brandy wrote in, Brandy, you wrote in about good uses for whey, both like like acid whey and other ways. And I I need to think about it. I'm gonna I'm gonna get I'm gonna come back to it.
+
+[37:09] I'm gonna give you your time, Brandy, but I'm gonna do it later. Uh Mark Thompson wrote in. Have you ever heard of the town in in in Canada, Cam Loops? Can't say I have. Cam loops.
+
+[37:19] So Mark wrote in and said, Mark from Sunny Cam Loops, British Columbia. Are you sure the name of the town isn't Sunny Camloops? No, it's Camloops. But I looked it up and I was like, I was like, I'm sure, I'm sure that Mark is just being like, you know, he's in Canada right now, so the day is what, like half a half an hour long in British Columbia right now? You know what I mean?
+
+[37:37] Like, I was like, I'm sure he's just messing around. He's being facetious, and then he's, you know, he's being sarcastic when he says sunny cam loops. No, can loops, cam loops, can't K-A-M loops, like Fruit Loops, but K-A-M, is the second sunniest town in all of Canada. They just don't have any clouds at Cam loops. What's that about?
+
+[37:57] What's the first? I did not look that up. I didn't look it up. I I mean, I'm I was working. I'm good just with the second.
+
+[38:07] Anyway, Mark has three quickish questions. One, uh, I keep a salt cellar beside my stove. You know, a thing for salt. I know. Not a root cellar, which is underneath the ground.
+
+[38:17] Salt cellar. Uh I am not careful about being food safe with it, considering that nothing could live in pure salt. Am I correct or not? You are correct, but salt can still get gross. There are things that are safe that make you go when you look at them.
+
+[38:31] Or like, for instance, uh, just looking at someone's filth hands going into salt and then sprinkling it over your food, you're like, that's gross. May not be unsafe. Gross. You know what's a good use for salt? Uh after you uh do your chicken or whatnot on top of your wood cutting board, I rub salt into it before I wash it off.
+
+[38:53] Learn that from my old butcher. Scrub salt into it, let it sit for a while, and then do the wash off. Because I actually don't bleach my my boards. Do you bleach your boards? I do have bleach.
+
+[39:03] I do not bleach my boards. I rub I love salt. Uh I do food prep for a week at bleach your hair? Doesn't it hurt your hair? I mean, I didn't know what is it actually bleach?
+
+[39:12] I know well, I know that you like I know you light it in your hair, but is it actual bleach or is there something that's not as damaging? It's like I think it's peroxide, it's not like chlorine bleached. Because chlorine bleach will f you up, right? No, like I feel like a little bit like off after, you know, because it's like a lot of chemicals on your head. How do you un how do you unwirey your hair once it's been bleached?
+
+[39:32] Uh you can't really. I mean, you can get like conditioner that does a nice job. Adds the stuff back. I'm gonna touch your hair. Okay.
+
+[39:39] Do you use Olaplex? I do. Oh, the Olaplex shampoo is like the best shampoo I've ever used my entire lottery. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[39:45] Okay. Not a plug. I'm not going to be able to do that. I do not, I do not, I do not even have knowledge of what you're speaking. Uh I do food prep for a week at a time, which usually involves some sort of soup or stew in a large pot.
+
+[39:55] I usually put this on the counter lid it overnight to cool down. Is there much of a risk in doing this? Depends on what you mean by much. Uh like uh Mark Ruhlman and uh Harold McGee got into uh an online slap fest over this a couple of years ago. Uh and the the thing is is that if it's lided and it was hot, the odds are that nothing's gonna grow.
+
+[40:15] Things could grow. Uh usually reheating the soup beforehand is gonna make it all okay, but uh it's not impossible that something bad can happen. Now, if you're pressure cooking your soup and you don't open it, that sucker is commercially sterile. But like odds are you're not gonna die. I mean, like, like look, here's some things that's all about mandating risk.
+
+[40:40] Here's some here's some risk things, right? Oh, I left the pizza out overnight. Do I have to throw it away? No. No.
+
+[40:47] No, you don't. The water level is so water activity level is so low, pizza is a preserved item. You don't need it, might not be good anymore, but it's definitely not dangerous. And you know, so uh so things like that. Soup, like if it was me and I had worked hard on some soup and it was on the stove, and like I'd be like, Am I gonna throw this away or am I gonna reheat it?
+
+[41:06] I'm gonna reheat it. Yeah, you know what I mean? But like incinerate it and it's all good. Yeah, but am I gonna say that this is what you should do? No, no, no.
+
+[41:14] Um three. What is the purpose of sweating miropoi if no caramelization is taking place? Uh typically you sweat, I don't know. One thing is is that when you sweat it, like aromatics like onions, you are changing the chemistry of the onion before a lot of the water is added, even if they're not brown, so it's probably a different flavor. With regards to carrots and things like that, it's usually to just to pre-cook it and to start getting rid of some of the water before you're adding things.
+
+[41:39] Uh, in something like a soup, I don't know how much of it's uh difference it's gonna make, but that higher temperature on the carrot during the sweat process, even if it's not browning, is gonna make different flavors than if you just threw it directly into water, let's say. So there you go. Uh Mike writes in about molasses, molasses, industrial bry products slash delicious. Why is it so cheap to use as a commodity for animal feed, yet freakishly expensive as an ingredient? Are we getting squeezed out by big rum?
+
+[42:07] It's $30 a gallon unless you buy it in bulk. Well, Mike. It's capitalism, baby. Yeah, well, also there's different kinds of molasses. So you are definitely getting overcharged for black strap molasses, which is kind of gross, but you should be buying fancy molasses.
+
+[42:21] Fancy molasses, and I'm a fancy man. I don't know if you know this, I'm a fancy man. Yeah. Uh fancy molasses is when you take uh the sugar cane syrup and you just boil it down. It's not actually a byproduct, it's like a sugar syrup.
+
+[42:36] So it's full spectrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called integral molasses, and there's actually two kinds. There's integral molasses, it's called high test molasses. And there's integral, which has not been clarified beforehand, so that's like super like unprocessed.
+
+[42:48] And then there's uh regular high test, which they filter it because the non-filtering, there's a bunch of like protein scum and stuff that will like that F's up your plant unless you that needs a lot of skimming unless you clarify it first. So anyway, so high test molasses, my favorite, of course, is Crosby's because I'm a northern person, right? Crosby's molasses is a butt-kicking fancy molasses, right? Uh is like to me, that's like the standard. Like that stuff tastes good and has a higher sugar content in terms of like it, they're all at about 80%.
+
+[43:18] So what they do for that is they invert the sugar, right? And we'll get into invert, but we won't because we don't have time, but they invert the sugar so it doesn't crystallize and take it to like 80, 85 bricks somewhere up there, and they give it to you. So it has all the stuff that's in the cane, but all the initial sugar is there. Black strap molasses is a sugar-making byproduct. So it's more bitter, it's like had a lot of the sugar removed from it.
+
+[43:39] It still is high in sugar, but has a lot more ash and other weird kind of like stuff in it, and that's a kind of a byproduct. That should be cheap. There are grades of blackstrap molasses as well, and most molasses it's sold as baking molasses or cooking molasses is actually a mixture of blackstrap molasses and high test fancy molasses. So, there you go. But molasses is uh very good.
+
+[44:00] Stella Parks, I think, did a breakdown on the internet on Sirius Eats of like accidentally using black strap molasses for fancy molasses for like good high test molasses, showing how black strap molasses is gonna ruin your cookies, and like and like actual fancy molasses is going to make good cookies. And there's a people who grew up in cities who didn't grow up eating molasses, like so you didn't grow up in like the molasses parts of the south, or you didn't grow up in the like north where molasses and beans is a thing. For those of you that have grew up in molasses poor regions, right? Molasses desert molasses deserts, like you like here's where the mistake a lot of food writers who grew up eating food and like enjoying food. So you're from Alabama, right, Kat?
+
+[44:43] My dad makes cane syrups, right? So you know what real molasses is. So for you, when you think of molasses, you're thinking of fancy molasses, and black strap molasses is like the weird, like gross thing that other people. But and a lot of writers think that, but the average person thinks that molasses is black strap molasses. Okay, and that's not so you have to just think about them as two separate products, they should really have different names.
+
+[45:07] You know what I'm saying? Uh Jacob wrote in about my uh Arduino travails and says I should be using teensy's. Thank you, uh Jason. I will be looking into the teensy, which is a different kind of microcontroller, faster, smaller, better, stronger, faster. It's the six million dollar, but it's cheaper.
+
+[45:26] You know, six million dollar uh man and woman. You've seen these these remember those shows? Did you like those shows? Steve Austin and Steve Austin. Steve Austin was like Stone Cold Steve Austin?
+
+[45:36] No, but that was also the name of the character in the $6 million dollar man. Do you think he named himself after that? Probably. Which one came first. Uh Lee Major, $6 million.
+
+[45:46] We can rebuild him. We can make it better. Stronger. Faster. Remember this?
+
+[45:51] Steve Austin is in uh he's taking off in a rocket. Rocket messes up. He's an astronaut. He takes off, he crashes, you see the crash and burn of the capsule, all messed up, and then you see him on the operating table, and the boss is like, we can rebuild him. I was more of a bionic woman.
+
+[46:09] She was awesome too. Same idea. She's a tennis player. She's a tennis player. Bionic woman was a tennis player.
+
+[46:14] I've and she was in a parachuting accident. And they rebuild her and make her better, stronger, and faster. Lizzie Lindsay Wagner was the actress for that, and that's a good seventies right there. Like when I was growing up, you had your Lindsay Wagner, you had your uh oh my god, what's her name? Oh my god.
+
+[46:28] Linda Carter, Wonder Woman. For me, I haven't seen the new Wonder Woman yet, so I'm still a Linda Carter Wonder Woman kind of a person. But anyway, Linda Carter. Wes writes in, why does the type of pot slash heights and sides matter when it comes to evaporation? I'm currently roasting pork shoulder and milk in a shallow pan instead of a deeper Dutch oven.
+
+[46:47] And I'm doing so because allegedly less will condense on the sides of the shallower pan, I'll get more concentrated sauce, more brown cut of meat, etc. But heat in must equal heat out, right? Won't the same amount of heat and therefore water vapor be escaping from a pan, regardless of the higher the sides, and regardless of whether the lid is on or off. No. Uh no.
+
+[47:05] The lid off or on is the main thing you're dealing with here. A large surface area of liquid is going to evaporate a lot more and will take a lot more heat to get to the same temperature because you're as you evaporate, literally evaporation cools things down. That's evaporative cooling. And so if you want stuff to get hot fast, use a narrow pan. Here's another thing.
+
+[47:25] If you want to evaporate things quickly and you have plenty of heat, use a wide pan. If you are going to uh really reduce something a lot, then you want a narrow pan because it will scorch as it gets down to the bottom. That's the main reason. So, like the actual coolest pans to do reductions in are tapered. So they start out wide so that your evaporation can happen really quickly, and then as it goes down and gets down, you have more height to deal with so that you don't burn it out at the last minute.
+
+[47:52] Uh but anyway, uh so I'm gonna get I'm gonna get kicked off, I'm pretty sure. So you are, dude. I'm gonna deal with Carlos, Carlos and your cookie shelf life, marijuana cookie shelf life problem. I have a lot to say. I will talk to you about that uh next week.
+
+[48:07] By the way, next week is the Thanksgiving episode of Cooking Issues Right Nestasia. Yeah, and Brandy, I will talk to you about Whey, but I'm gonna leave it with classics in the field uh regarding a question from John. John writes in and says, Dave once mentioned a chocolate fondue that he kept warm in a uh circulator bay-marie at a party. I used to do that on the constant. I would have a uh I would have a queso and a and a chocolate fondue next to each other and just fix things all the way around, and you get to choose.
+
+[48:33] Does this pretzel go into queso or does it pretzel go into chocolate? I feel like it's both. Yeah, yeah. Also, you need to do that for your holiday party, John. Yeah, okay.
+
+[48:41] Yeah, all right. Uh so what did I use? Anything to watch out for uh for to ensure stretchiness. I don't want stretchiness in my chocolate fondue. It's not goop.
+
+[48:49] It's not goop. Uh, or proper texture. And this leads me into today's abbreviated classic in the field, where we're gonna talk about Julia Child. Now, Julia Child, uh, I never met her. I got into the food business basically, like professionally, the year she died.
+
+[49:05] So I feel I got into it just a little bit too late to meet her. But she was kind of one one of my idols. In World War II, she was uh part of the OSS, which became the CIA. She was a spy. She invented a shark repellent that apparently is still used because sharks were messing with a lot of our underwater bombs.
+
+[49:22] And so she like developed a shark repellent to keep sharks away from our underwater bombs while she was working with the spy service. There's a good drug history of that. We had sharks. Try at work. Have you heard of Total War?
+
+[49:34] Let's see if this works. And then sharks are just getting blown up in like every era. This is World War II. This is not like, you know, like minor war situation. This is like all in, all your chips in the middle of anyway.
+
+[49:48] So, like, you know, if a if some sharks have to get damaged, some sharks are gonna get damaged. You know what I mean? Like, that's just that's how it worked. Uh in the 50s, uh, she went to uh Court of Blue uh cooking school in France and in 1961, wrote with Simone Beck and some other person whose name I always forget, uh Mastery and Art of French Cooking, which is the amazing two-volume set, which is still a classic. Now, when I was a kid, in the basement of our house was all of the cookbooks, including Mastering Art of French Cooking, along with all the gourmets, the bone apps, and the sunset magazines that my mom had saved since you know 1970.
+
+[50:22] Right? Yeah. And so when I used to read Mastering the Art of French Cooking, because I would look at it, it was to a teenager intimidating. It was very intimidating. But as soon as, and so like it and it's still to this day when you look at it, it's very precise, very French.
+
+[50:36] It's like if you don't do it this way, it won't be French. Like, Julia Child had not learned to really kind of cut loose. In 19 uh 89 or 4, I forget. She came out with The Way to Cook. The Way to Cook was the book she wrote in America, where she is already at this point, she was born in the 30s, so she you know, she was already, you know, like like fully matured, like older woman, and she had just been cooking for this, you know, decades and decades, teaching people how to cook, and she'd already kind of unmoored herself from all of her needs to be French, but she still had all of that kind of awesome French underpinning.
+
+[51:14] And she was much freer with her writing and telling you what to do and giving you more license as a cook. And it's the first cookbook my mom bought me when I graduated from college when I was starting my own cookbook library and couldn't have her cookbooks anymore to crib from. And so to this day, for my wife Jen for her birthday, I make her the Queen of Sheba cake that is in Mastering the Art of French Cooking. Uh, you know, the I I think my edition was from the early 90s, but the original one was in the in the late 80s. And so my chocolate ganache recipe, because my fondue is essentially uh a ganache, it's not essentially, it is, I just melt ganache.
+
+[51:53] Uh, and you can keep ganache in quart containers in your fridge basically uh forever, as long as the butter doesn't go rancid. So you want to push, you want to push some uh plastic wrap down onto the surface of the ganache uh after or just before or after it sets so that you don't have a lot of like you know, nasty flavors, and then cover it and wrap it again so that fridge flavors don't get into your ganache. But it could not be simpler, and I'll read you what Julia Child had to say about it. This is from Julia Child, The Way to Cook. This is an extremely easy and versatile chocolate filling that was not around when I was doing my classic French training in the early 1950s.
+
+[52:27] Now I often wonder why not. Who introduced it, etc., etc. But again, not really caring so much about that. She just leaves and lets that pause off and goes directly into the recipe. And now remember, this is an 80s recipe, so uh she says use eight ounces of sweet chocolate or six ounces of sweet and two of unsweet.
+
+[52:44] I use exclusively like somewhere in the 70s, like bittersweet for my ganache, and I don't have to add anything else to it. One cup of heavy whipping cream, uh, two tablespoons of pure vanilla, and two to three tablespoons of rum optional, and optionally confectional sugar if you need to sweeten it up, which you won't. Uh and then couldn't get easier. Throw the whipp throw the cream in, throw the chocolate in, bring it up slowly, melt the chocolate into the cream, throw in the rum and vanilla, stir it, done. You're done.
+
+[53:13] Done. You're finished. It's over. It's good. Anyway, uh, I recommend you read it.
+
+[53:18] I've never met anyone that doesn't like Julia Child. The worst thing I've heard people say is, oh, I wish other people of the same uh generation, like Madeline Kamen had gotten so as much um, you know, props as Julia Child did. But Julia Child was so influential because of her television presence. It's hard for you to understand if you didn't grow up when she was really big. Like she was the first chat and chew, right?
+
+[53:44] She was the stuff. Uh and Madeline Kahn, unfortunately, ruined her legacy by at the end of her career redoing the making of a cook and butchering it for modern co uh modern uh, you know, what's it called? What's that thing people call when they believe that uh food can be healthy? What's that called? Nutritional stuff.
+
+[54:01] Yeah. Anyway, so she butchered her her Magnum opus that way. Anyway, I recommend you go look at uh the way to cook. Thank you, John DeBerry, for bringing in proto. Go check it out.
+
+[54:12] Uh it's very good for your non-alcoholic aperitif needs. Thanks for all your doggling. Next week is your last chance to ask us Thanksgiving questions. I will be talking about my Thanksgiving bird because I'm gonna be cooking it in New York. Uh, I don't think we talked about China.
+
+[54:26] Nastasia and I can talk about China, and we will have Booker and Dax announcements next week out Cooking Issues! Are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. It's Todd Shulkin, the host of Inside Joyous Kitchen here on HRN. Inside Joy's Kitchen carries on Julia Child's legacy of introducing the brightest lights in the food world to wider audience, just as Julia did from her home kitchen.
+
+[55:13] Look for Inside Joy's Kitchen wherever you listen to podcasts and on Heritage Radio Network.org. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[55:32] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[55:55] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces.
+
+[56:14] Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:29] This episode is brought to you by 100 Bogart Street, a co-working building in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Need a professional place to work from? Learn more by visiting 100Bogart.com. Hardcore is a new series from Heritage Radio Network. Over six episodes, we're taking a close look at the rebirth of American cider.
+
+[0:55] Really, it wasn't until about 10 years ago that cider started to be revitalized in the United States. From the science of fermentation. So yeast. It's a fungus. It's a unicellular fungus.
+
+[1:10] To the magic of terroir. What really excites us is thinking about communicating that very sort of spiritual aspect of knowing a piece of land. We're setting aside our cider donuts to gain a deeper understanding of this singular beverage. I love a cider donut. You don't have to have a cider donut with your cider.
+
+[1:32] And I will die on that point. Subscribe to Hardcore wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah. We were same in a we're waiting for our theoretical special guest, Phil Bravo! But he's late.
+
+[2:01] Only Phil. There's Phil Bravo. He's staring around like he doesn't know what a studio looks like. The man teaches recorder and triangle to children and doesn't know where a sound booth is. Makes no sense.
+
+[2:13] He'll be in here in a minute. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah?
+
+[2:18] Yeah. Getting ready for the Thanksgiving. We should talk about our sale. We will. We got Matt back in the booth.
+
+[2:22] How are you doing? I'm great. Yeah? Yeah, where were you last week? Were you having fun or not having fun?
+
+[2:26] Uh oh, I was at jury duty. I was having fun. Ooh, jury duty. So, jury duty, they sent me a notice to my wrong address and then said they were gonna throw me in jail. But here's the hilarious thing.
+
+[2:35] Uh I just got it. It was like super late. Here's the hilarious thing. They're supposed to get their jury stuff from voter records, right? Yeah.
+
+[2:42] Well, my voter records are at my current address, so you know, one ass doesn't know what the other elbow is doing. Well, with me, they actually managed to do it the other way. They somehow found me, even though I had not yet updated my voter registration. They found me and sent me a thing. So, you know, sometimes they get it right.
+
+[3:00] Were you chosen? I was not chosen. Nothing interesting happened. It was like my own private library. It was a great day.
+
+[3:05] I just worked. Yeah, I don't know. There's something about uh something about it, just like I I was on a jury once, but sitting in that waiting room is just, I don't know, man. I mean, I want I want to be selected for like a very limited run trial. I don't want to be there for weeks, obviously.
+
+[3:19] Yeah. Well, I was once selected for one that they they tell you when you go to jury duty that you need to schedule, I forget X number of weeks, like two or three weeks. That's basically like the thing. And so then if you can't do that, they're like, well, then don't even come to jury duty. Get it postponed.
+
+[3:35] So I went and the judge was like, once the trade judge was like, this trial's gonna last for three weeks. I was like, Oh, you said two, you said two, and the third week I'll be in China. This was years ago. And they were like, get out, you jerk, you moke, butt lord, get out of here. I mean, so I'm paraphrasing slightly.
+
+[3:54] Listen. And then how long did they let you they they promised me I would not get called until eight years from now. Well, it's a funny thing. I gotta look back. The last time I I served on a jury that, you know, went to verdict, I was the foreman, in fact, Matt.
+
+[4:09] Why? So important. Uh it's alphabetical order. And uh they didn't let us choose. And uh there was no amuldsons there that could beat me out on the on the Arnold, so yeah, you will always be the foreman.
+
+[4:21] Well, until, you know, Barney A. Moldsons in there, and then I'm host. I'd say being foreman has its privileges. You know, anyway. Uh so now we are joined in the studio by Phil Bravo!
+
+[4:36] How you doing? I'm doing all right, how are you doing, dude? Oh, listen, I need you to use that sweet, sweet voice, Phil, to tell people about the Booker and Dax Black Friday holiday sale. Yes, Phil, go. Have you heard about the Booker and Dax Black Friday sale?
+
+[4:57] Dave, is it crazy? It is bananas, Phil. B-A-N-A-N-A-S bananas, Dave. Like, what was it? How does the Grinch say it?
+
+[5:08] Uh oh, uh with a with a greasy black peel. With a greasy black pee. With a greasy black peel. Yeah, yeah. So uh you were late, so we made fun of you teaching recorder and triangle to small children.
+
+[5:18] Yeah, that was what I was very busy doing. Uh I was on the train just giving out recorders to people to brighten up uh everyone's community. He brought out the recorder, and then the two-year-old at the party was just blowing it all over. Uh the recorder is a terrible thing. That came out as you expected.
+
+[5:34] Oh, oh, family. Oh, yeah. Also, we can't curse. Yeah, the record the recorder is uh possibly the worst instrument of all time. Uh I mean, exactly, which is why I go around giving it to children.
+
+[5:44] Just, you know, spreading music. Yeah, yeah. You're like, you're like, I got some good news and I got some bad news. It makes a terrible sound, but it can only make one sound at a time. That's the good news.
+
+[5:54] The thing is uh it's not polyphonous. The two-year-old was able to make quite a good sound by like he had like half of it entirely uh just swallowed at that moment. And still, you know. It's like covering some of the holes, like exactly. Yeah, and so you just like just.
+
+[6:08] How do you make no noise when the whistle part is covered, whatever that's called there? You know, life finds a way. Yeah, yeah. What's that called in technical jargon? That little whistly cutout in the front.
+
+[6:17] Or I think twistly cutout. Yeah, yeah. You ever you ever made a uh do you know that you can take young moosewood saplings, which is a striped maple, uh, in in spring, cut them, hit them with the back of your camping knife to free the to free the bark, then push the wood out of the bark, leaving the bark as a straight tube, then cut a notch into it and pull it back and make a slide whistle out of it. It's a thing. It's a thing.
+
+[6:47] It's well, well, in the Northeast in the 30s and 40s, it was a thing. And might have been a thing all the way up into the 50s. But if you are a connoisseur of 19, let's say, let's say like 1890 to like 1950 American tree and forestry stuff. Then if you just happen to be. Yeah, or you know, if you read all of the works of Harlow, for instance, of which there are probably only like five, so it's easy to get them all.
+
+[7:17] Like there, you're multiple instructions on how to build you a slide whistle out of a out of a moosewood setup. Doesn't it only do one thing? You know, beep beep beep beep. Can you play it though? Yeah, it's like a sad trombone all the time.
+
+[7:29] Well, it's like a happy on crack trombone. It is true. And also, if you have, do you know that if you have a drill and a parsnip, you can also have your own recorder? I would like to hear about this. Is this food related?
+
+[7:40] This is food related. Finally. Yeah, finally. Yeah, so give me some. Uh, I mean, that's pretty much it.
+
+[7:45] You just need a long drill bit, you go right down the middle. You can do make your own little whistly bit in the in the top. If you use the top joint of a recorder, it's cheating a little bit. That's cheating a lot. Um, yeah.
+
+[7:56] Why parsnip and not like carrot? Well, I mean is a parsnip softer. Do you have to soak it in water first? Literally, you could do a carrot or a parsnip. I just think the parsnip uh has a little bit more character.
+
+[8:05] Yeah. Well about the tone. Exactly. It's a little bit of a woodier tone. Oh.
+
+[8:09] I said with no no data to back out of it. Yeah, uh, so like it wouldn't work on something that's entirely water without a lot of structure, like not a daikon. I think a daikon would be like as as uh soft as you'd go. I think a even a potato would fall apart pretty quick. Yeah, also like there is more kind of lignified crap on the inside of a carrot or a parsnip, which is let's face it, a non orange faky carrot.
+
+[8:32] It's true. Yeah. Uh so I don't know. What's the difference between a part of a parsnip and a carrot? I mean, they're different, but I mean, like, if someone was like they're not as sweet, eh?
+
+[8:42] What? No, they are parsnips are sweet. Carrots are sweet. But parsnips are like a roasted parsnip. I like a roasted parsnip, but I'm saying it's kind of like a bunk carrot.
+
+[8:54] I that's nonsense. This is nonsense. I mean, I like parsnips a lot. I cook parsnips. You know what my uh this is not related at all, but you know what I like a lot, but I don't like as leftovers?
+
+[9:05] Uh all of the stock uh of the amazing Black Friday sale. Oh bringing it back, Phil. No leftovers for you. Rutabagas. Rutabagas.
+
+[9:17] All right. I love rutabagas. I don't think I could pick a rutabaga out of a lineup. They're they're kind of look like waxy Charlie Brownheads with a little bit of right? Yeah.
+
+[9:26] Stas, you really have to do that. You know how you get one of them uh waxy uh Charlie Brownheads? Yeah. Yeah. If you if you're in the supermarket and you see a waxy Charlie Brownhead, Azar that's a rutabago.
+
+[9:37] If you're an English person, a Swede. For some reason the English call them Swedes. They call them Swedes. They call them a sweet. Who knows?
+
+[9:43] Rutabaga is a sweet? Swede. Yeah, sweet. But they're real waxy on the outside. So you cut off the wax and they're great steamed, but like the next day I never like them as much.
+
+[9:51] I mean, like, maybe if you mash them and put them in a soup, they're fine the next day. But if you just have like, like, let's say you're doing a prep where you I don't know if you know this. Uh, if you know, for those of you that like only cook at home, but you know, in general, like you you you'll pre you'll parcook or fully cook your veg and then reassemble and finish at the fire, right? So, like, I don't like like parcooked, steamed freaking rutabaga the next day. I mean, who does, Dave?
+
+[10:17] Yeah, I mean, I don't know, maybe many people. Swedes, perhaps? Perhaps a sweet. I don't know. But I think that the rutabaga is a deli I'd be more people should cook with rutabagas.
+
+[10:29] They are delicious. And I like the word. Brought to you by the Rutabega Council. Rutabagos. Say say Rutabaga with a serious voice.
+
+[10:35] Listen. Rutabaga. Oh, see? Now, Stas, don't you want to eat that? Yeah.
+
+[10:40] Waxy Charlie Brownhead is. So what is this in this bag here? We're going to. Wait, well, let's wait. Let's finish our Black Friday crap.
+
+[10:44] Okay. So Nastasia Lopez and I went to China a couple of weeks ago. China. And uh we had some good word. We visited the factory that makes the the spinzalls.
+
+[11:00] And we have a new agent, right? Uh over there. And uh, which that the new age is not related. We visited the factory, and Nastasia has never been to China before. So I was there, I was like, listen, just you know, I'm gonna turn this lady loose on you.
+
+[11:14] Nastashi's like, poof, poof, bang, poof! And uh, and they were like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. We'll lower the prices on future on future spinzalls. So we were able to bring the price of the spinzall down based on our future, and assuming, of course, that the tariff gets lifted, which you know, who knows, but like bring the cost of future stuff down so that we're off uh able to now offer the spinzall for the low low price, Phil. He doesn't know, I don't think.
+
+[11:46] I think a oh I did know 499. That's right. Yes. Was if you if we have a YouTube, so Nastasia, we're like, we're gonna do a YouTube video about it, about the sale. We also did some infomercials, I haven't cut them together yet.
+
+[12:01] Yes, but this video was my idea. What? The whole thing. What? That's crazy.
+
+[12:05] That's crazy. So she not being from New York, so she has no idea what she's talking about, right? And don't don't shake your head, Miami man. Like she I watched enough Seinfeld to know. So Crazy Eddie, you grew up as Crazy Eddie.
+
+[12:19] Because we were doing a bunch of Billy May style stuff, which we haven't done yet, but this is like Crazy Eddie was a guy, he went to jail for some kind of a fraud, but he used to put on like the goofy sweater and start screaming that his prices were insane and throwing stuff around. It was like a it was like uh kind of a local PC Richards. Which then on Seinfeld became I'm the whiz. Oh, the whiz is an actual thing too. The whiz is also a thing?
+
+[12:41] The whiz is a thing. Alright, I'm from Florida. Yeah. Uh yeah, but the whiz wasn't New York. The whiz, the whiz discount store, also like kind of a local PC Richards.
+
+[12:50] I never went to it, was uh didn't have a it had a like uh an over-the-top kind of voiceover stitch, but not like a face, like not a singular crazy Edward in the way that Crazy Eddie was a guy. Or in the way that, for instance, Dr. Zizmo was a guy on the New York City subways. For those of you that, you know, I told you uh Dr. Zizmoore's daughter became a food writer bloggist, at least for a while, and she came to interview us.
+
+[13:16] She said her last name is Zizmore, and we're like what? She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, the Z is more? Dr. Z?
+
+[13:25] And she's like, yeah. I was like, oh yeah. Anyone who was alive during that time period, which lasted up until like probably 2014, probably. Yeah, I was uh I was in New York for that. Yeah.
+
+[13:35] Uh he must have retired or something. I don't know. I don't know. But the man had impeccable skin. So he like they had he also had all these commercials where where like they'd have these random, and it's like only in New York do you get this kind of person.
+
+[13:48] Like the person who's like kind of doesn't want to be on camera, is kind of looking around, like, thank you, Dr. Zizmo. You know what I mean? Like, my skin was completely messed up. Thank you, Dr.
+
+[13:59] Zizmo. You know what I mean? Like that kind of a thing, but it's like a very New York kind of commercial. Pushed him onto the camera. Yeah, push him onto the camera.
+
+[14:08] Total dog, give me some more, give me a free fruit peel. Anyway, uh I just came out of that out of my head because I know nothing about Durban. This is the second time in a week that Zizmore is coming out. I know. We talked about it last night.
+
+[14:20] Yeah. Well, not on the show, you mean in Nastasia's life. In Nastasia's life. So look, I mean, like, you know, there's there's uh, you know, the for those of us that ride the subways, those kind of like long-term like subway ads have a like they're come become part of your life in a way that I think a non-New Yorker wouldn't kind of understand. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:39] Because you're you're smashed in. It used to be, by the way, it's a lot different now on the subway than it was, let's say, 40 years ago, 30, 40 years ago. Like when I was a little kid, I was very, very much instructed, don't look at anyone. Don't look, don't look at anyone. Stare at the ceiling, stare at the ground, do not make eye contact with anyone.
+
+[15:03] Now, you know, now that we, you know, you know, live, you know, in the in the New York of nowadays, I feel that I could just like stare a hole through someone's forehead, and odds are they won't do anything. You know what I mean? Yeah, but what do I wait for when we take the subway together? So uh for those of you that have ridden one of the so in in New York City, most subway stops are about two minutes apart. Like, give or take, they're all about two minutes.
+
+[15:25] Except there are a few long hauls. So one of the long hauls is between 59th and 125th on the blue and the orange lines. But another fairly long haul is the tunnel under the water uh that the L train takes as it travels from Brooklyn, thankfully back to Manhattan to take me back home. Thank you for explaining why I was late. Yeah.
+
+[15:44] Uh so anyway, so if you happen to go on the L train midday and you're in one of the more center center cars, there are groups of people that come on showtime. And they say, it's showtime. And then if tourists, there are tourists, and then there's also friend of the show, Paul Adams, who also like obstinately would not move out of the way. Just like he he went in like full cow mode where he was just kind of standing there and like not being moved by the guy's like Showtime, Showtime, Showtime. Paul's pretending like he doesn't know what showtime means.
+
+[16:16] Anyone who has ridden New York City subways knows what well, who's written a lot, knows that the showtime is. They put on crappy beatbox music. There is always there's always at least two, sometimes three people, and one plays the hype man while the other one does their kind of routine, which generally involves some form of pole dancing parkour kind of a situation. And the worst of all is the hat catching. Please, showtime people.
+
+[16:43] Get rid of the hat catching. Not interesting. Maybe the first person that flipped a baseball cap and caught it on their head. Maybe that was cool, but now it's almost as bad as bottle flipping. For those of you that remember the bottle flipping trend of a couple of years ago that I was tortured with by my children.
+
+[16:58] Listen, Nastasia Lopez's only goal in life is to get me kicked in the face by a showtime person. Now, I have never seen anyone get kicked in the face by a showtime person, but Nastasia is convinced, convinced, that they're gonna get on one of these poles and spin around, and one of their like you know, sneakers is gonna hit me square in the face. And she can't wait. You put up my nose! She's like, I just want to know if you're gonna get angry or if you're just gonna sit there and stew.
+
+[17:29] Just take it. Yeah. I'm not sure which one's gonna happen. What's better? I don't know.
+
+[17:33] Just stand there like like coldly staring with blood running down my face. What's now? You'll be excited because the thing has finally happened. What thing? Well, Nastasia will be excited.
+
+[17:46] I will be bleeding. Are you sure you won't look at her and you'll be like, Nastasia, it happened. But the people, the thing is, is Nastasia makes me like every week makes me get on the most crowded, dumbest car. That's nowhere near where I need to go. Another thing that you you might not know.
+
+[18:02] Hopefully, we'll do some more food now. But that the other thing you might not know is that uh everybody who rides the subway every day knows exactly what car to be in for where they get off. Okay? So Nastasia makes me go in not that car, right? Just for the just for the slim hope that, you know what's gonna happen one day?
+
+[18:21] I don't want to, I'm not gonna spoil, but anyway, one day she's just gonna push me into the guy's foot. Yeah, maybe no, I wouldn't do it. You'd be so mad he'd punch me. Yeah, it's about the anticipation. I would not punch you, Nastasia.
+
+[18:32] If it ever happens, you'd be so sad. No, you'd have nothing left to live for. No, she would find something else. No, no, I'd find something else. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:39] Yeah, yeah. Wait, so what's in this whole food store? So this is from Capri Sun. Capri Sun, the beverage manufacturing corporation? Oh, Capri.
+
+[18:46] Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, we have I was like, good, because uh I've made my I like you know, I've made plenty of fun of Capri Sun the Beverage to my children, but I guess not on air. Oh, speaking of making fun, you know who's supposed to be on air today? That's in uh two weeks. Aura King salmon was supposed to be now or a king salmon, you instead of this random conversation we're having about New York City subways, you could have been hearing about aquaculture, Icajima, you will hear fish anesthesia, importing fish from New Zealand, the taste of salmon with different slaughtering techniques, and uh my son Booker's favorite cured salmon at Russ and Daughters, which happens to be New Zealand King Salmon.
+
+[19:22] Uh, but what happened was this. It was a bunch of people, this is as Nastasia tells it to me. There's a bunch of New Zealanders. They they like were hanging out with an American friend, and they're like, I'm not gonna do a New Zealand accent because I don't really know what it is. They're like, tell me about this Thanksgiving thing.
+
+[19:36] And they're like, oh yeah, no one's doing any work from now until the end of the year. They're like, oh crap on that, I'm not going on that show then. No, they'll they'll be here in two weeks. Okay. Um, by the way, they also said this.
+
+[19:47] They were like, Do you want a list of questions for No, they wanted a list of questions? They want a list of questions, and Nastasia's like, no. We don't do that. We just don't do that. I mean, if you would like, I can talk at length about salmon slaughtering techniques.
+
+[19:59] No, you won't he will not know you. Is it accurate? No, do not challenge Dave. Um Radish Kimchi. You are then head spike caught 1121.
+
+[20:12] Is it frozen? Black sea bass. Ooh, Tata. Sea bass filet. Is it black?
+
+[20:17] Wait, blackfish or black sea bass? Black sea bass and black sea bass fillets. And then he made nothing. Thank you, Capriza. You have to get a name that is less like a crappy blue.
+
+[20:27] Well, he won't give us his real name. Uh homemade nothing fancy carrot cake and pumpkin pie. That's from that new cookbook. What new cookbook? Nothing fancy.
+
+[20:39] Please pretend you know what I'm talking about. Um dried lover. What's a dried lover? I don't know. Speaking of dried lover, uh, I finally purchased in America, oh, uh Laver.
+
+[20:56] It's Laver, seaweed. Uh yeah. Come on, get please pretend like people with seaweed. Read the thing. Laver.
+
+[21:05] Oh, oh, here's the. Ooh, is that a Kasukai? Does it have a dumb saying on it? I love I love a dumb Kassukai saying. This is the character.
+
+[21:13] It doesn't have it, it just has a mix. Uh okay, so listen, back to China for a minute. So Nastasi and I are in China, and we go to And that's why we lower the price on the spinzall. The Sears all, get this people. Now we're hoping this works.
+
+[21:29] Oh, yeah, okay, okay. So, like, so people are like, yo, yo, can you send me uh Searsol? And the answer is no, we can't because Nastasi and I strangely don't own any. And uh Amazon buys them from us and takes possession of them in China. Now we're also taking possession of them, a couple of them now for this Black Friday thing, because here's what we're gonna do.
+
+[21:51] Here's what we're gonna do. So please, if you know someone that's gonna buy it, please make our scam work. We're putting we're putting a small number, a relatively small number of Searsols available. Uh, and it's it's a big freaking thing, believe it or not, because we haven't I don't even want to get into it, like how nasty Amazon is with whatever, I don't want to get into it. But like we're putting up, we're putting a uh a block of them in, and we're gonna lower our price on like our our prime stuff there, and then Amazon will match it.
+
+[22:24] So, what we want you to do is buy Amazon's Sears Alls that they've already paid us for at technically technically, yeah. They don't pay us for like you know, like five months if they pay us at all. Well, it's too much to get into. So, anyway, if you're gonna buy it, just please click the Amazon one because that'll let us keep the sale going longer. What are we what are we trying to do to Amazon?
+
+[22:45] Give them the shkut and gorp, as my stepfather would say. Nastasi's like, what's the shkut and gorp? I'm like, you can picture it. Here's the fist. Shkut and gorp.
+
+[22:53] You know what I mean? Uh as my stepfather Gerard says. That's another one of the great Girardisms. Like if if I it's you use the S word, but if crapped himself. You're like, you're like, if this, if that, if this, if this, if crapped himself.
+
+[23:07] But he said, you know, if pooped his pants, basically. And then once I've said this on air before, right? So then, and he says it also with should. I was like, you should have done this, you should have done that. Oh yeah!
+
+[23:17] Should craft himself, but he says, you know, you know, the S word. And so, and then one day I was like, well, it's because, you know, he he keeps on saying should have, should have, should have, and he never makes it to the bathroom, and he poops in his pants. And he goes, You're too literal, Dave. That's not what it means. I'm like, that's exactly what the hell else can it mean?
+
+[23:31] He's like, it's a figure of speech. I'm like, what the hell else can it mean? He's like, it means if himself. You know what I mean? I'm like, It's illiterate, Dave.
+
+[23:39] Really. Another one is Schkut and Gorb. You gave it to him. You have to. If you're gonna give someone the schkuttengorp people, what you have to do is you have to put your we don't know if it's gonna work.
+
+[23:50] You have to put your your elbow, like, you have to lift your arm up to kind of a level position at chest height with your uh your your dominant hand, with your palm flat to the ground and your fingers spread. Then what you do is you go, you bring your elbow down into a gouging kind of uppercut motion, and then you make the fist. You make the fist as soon as the hand gets flipped under, as you go down into the, you flip your hand over and you make the fist. Snap your fist, and then up into the shkut and gorp. We don't even know if it's Dave just demonstrated really quality French horn stomp technique.
+
+[24:28] That was he he started with a lovely web and then moved directly into Stopped horn. It was beautiful. Yeah, nice perfect for some more. That's how they do that? Yep.
+
+[24:36] Oh, nice. All right, see. Learn something new every day. So hopefully our plan works. Also, the cocktail cube, which we've never, I'm do we're dealing we did an infomercial on the cocktail cube.
+
+[24:44] We've never pushed it. We're dropping the price to 999 and uh Searsol, we're gonna take down to 5999, but please buy Amazon. Yeah. And we have Sears all shirts, but we do? Yeah, but they're in my house.
+
+[24:58] All right. So Brandy wrote in last week about what? He didn't wear a Searsol shirt. I had it on shape. He's wearing a Searzal shirt.
+
+[25:07] He's wearing three Searz All shirts. It's like freaking uh Mascarado the Plata. If I El Santo, if I pull off one Searz All shirt, there's another underneath, and another underneath, and another underneath. He can never be unsears all shirted. Oh, thank you for those of you that ordered uh Lipet a sprayed Lipet Asbestus shirts.
+
+[25:25] Those are shipping and they'll be there by uh December 3rd. This episode is brought to you by 100 Bogart, a new building in Bushwick, Brooklyn, that provides offices, co-working, event spaces, and a brand new podcast recording room. Have you been dreaming of starting your very own podcast in Brooklyn? You can now rent space in 100 Bogart's custom built podcast room to record interviews, voiceover, and commentary. The room is fitted out with two microphones, mixing board, and a MacBook Pro running Pro Tools.
+
+[26:03] You can rent the space by the hour, and a rental of an hour or more includes a 100 Bogart co-working pass. That means complimentary coffee, tea, and access to your own desk for the rest of the day. So what are you waiting for? Get started on your next audio project. 100 Bogart has the space and amenities you need to kick start your podcast.
+
+[26:26] Learn more at 100bogart.com or call their team at 718-362-3539. I have a qu this is Brandy. I have a question that I can't seem to find any actual information about, and I'm hoping you can help. Occasionally I make yogurt or farmer's cheese. Uh and as you can imagine, I end up with quite a bit of whey.
+
+[26:48] Uh I've read that you can use whey as a substitute for water and baking, but I can't seem to find any insight into how or why. That's also true. Like people are like, you could use it. You're like, but why would I use it? I think it has a tenderizing effect, not as much as milk, but more than water.
+
+[27:04] So like it's also not adding a bunch of other stuff. So you could probably use in place of water in your in your quickie breads, and it'll probably give uh I mean it'll probably give it like uh some tenderization effect, although I don't really I can't vouch for that 100%. If you're using an acid-based whey or one that's been kind of lactofermented, then it'll probably kick start any fermentation into the dough, and it's going to acidify it so slightly. So the more acid the dough is, the slacker the gluten's gonna be. So you just gotta be careful of that.
+
+[27:36] But if you're doing something like a quick bread, it'll make it more tender because the acidity will weaken the gluten structure in the same way that like perhaps a buttermilk would. Uh, it'll also make it so that you would have to use less acid if you were gonna add uh uh a basic, this is the acid way, a basic thing like uh baking soda to it. Okay. Uh I can't seem to find any insight how. Also, I'm wondering about the implication of sweet whey.
+
+[28:01] Well, s you said from yogurt or acidic whey from cheese. Well, I think maybe those are kind of reversed, right? So sweet whey would be from rennet if you're rennetting cheese, right? So, like there's a you know, there's many different ways you can make cheese. If you're using rennet, then there hasn't been a lot of kind of bacterial action or acidic action, but with lemon juice or whatever, on the product, so you've curdled it with an enzyme, that would make a completely sweet whey, i.e., non-acidic.
+
+[28:27] And the coolest application for that is to make traditional ricotta cheese. Now the problem, see everyone who makes ricotta cheese now makes it with whole milk. And that's like the standard ricotta cheese that we kind of get is whole milk ricotta that we make is whole whole milk ricotta. But you can take just whey as long as it hasn't already been acidified. People still typically add a little bit of milk back to it to kind of increase the creaminess and probably the yield.
+
+[28:50] And then you heat it up to almost boiling to like 195 Fahrenheit, and then as it's cooling, you add acid and you get the ricotta, you skim it off. But you're only gonna get like like two cups out of a gallon of of whey. And I don't know if you can freeze the whey in batches and then thaw I don't know if you can freeze the whey in batches and then thaw it and make the ricotta. But if you could, that would be kind of a you save it for a while in zippies and then you make a batch of it uh when it's done. But it won't, I don't think, work on on uh whey that's already been acidified either through kind of lacto cultures or through um the straight use of lemon juice or other acids in the curdling process.
+
+[29:32] Uh another thing, a lot of people seem to use it as a Kickstarter for lacto fermentation, but again, I have no experience. Uh as usual, I have no experience. Um all right, Carlos wrote in, we don't have anything. Oh, you know, we didn't talk about before about China. So the so Nastasia, we get it, we're we're on the plane.
+
+[29:51] And so Nastasia shows up at the airport and she's like, eh, Ted went on last night, I don't feel good. I'm like, fine, that's fine. Right? You said I'm hungover. So like we're in the airport, and Nastasia is, even though we're about to get on a plane with the food was terrible, but even though we're getting getting on a plane, Nastasia is hoovering in a French onion soup.
+
+[30:13] Like at an airport. Okay, what could be more horrific? Anyway, so she's hoovering in this thing, and I'm like, what the hell are you doing? About to get she's like, eh, eh, I'm hungover. I'm fine.
+
+[30:24] So we get on the airplane, and then we're on the airplane, and she's sitting behind me, which is a ruddy nightmare. Never sit in front of Nastasia, because she's like, she's like pushing on the back of the chair. It's a touch screen, not a punch screen, Nastasia. So she's pushing it in at the thing of the whole flight. And then, like, halfway through this 15 hour, 15 and a half hour flight, she starts tapping my head, and I'm I'm I'm about to turn around, I'm about to call the the flight attendant on her and be like, there's a woman behind me who's lost her mind.
+
+[30:58] She's like, I'm sick, I'm sick. I was like, oh Jesus, Nastasia. And I know my body, and I and I was sick. I don't get the flu, but I got the flu. So she's like, I'm sick.
+
+[31:10] So I'm like, oh my god, because I just have these images because we're we're not only going to Hong Kong, we're going directly to China that night. And for those of you that ever flown or traveled into Hong Kong or China, you have to go by these people with head detectors where they're taking thermal images of everyone as they go through. And if you soon as you get off the plane. And if you have a fever, well, I don't know what happens, but you don't pass through and you don't have a ticket to go back. So, like, I don't know.
+
+[31:41] They just put you as uh, as Booker used to say, they just crumple you up and throw you the garbage, pretty much. So I told Dave this on the plane, and his reaction was, are you effing kidding me? And then you got up, went into your backpack, yeah, yeah, and threw some Tylenol at me. I was like, take all of these Tylenol and get your fever down so that we can get into the dang country. So then the entire time Nastasi was not her usual chipper self, but she was still game to uh go out, but she she stayed sick almost the entire trip.
+
+[32:14] Yeah. So like from culinary stand highlights, so we spent most of our time in Shenzhen. And Shenzhen, for those of you that don't know, is a town that 40 years ago was a tiny fishing village. And then as soon as Hong Kong, as soon as the the UK Hong Kong handoff happened, uh China built up Shenzhen into this mega like like trading city and manufacturing hub. So it's all only 40 years old.
+
+[32:39] So there are very few locals. What that means is that because everyone's come in, they have actually, even though it's not really like it's not an authentic city in the fact that it it didn't grow like a city does, uh, it has some good food in it because people from all over China have like live there. So, you know, because Nastasia was sick, I was walking around doing a lot of you know street food kind of a situation, and the hotel we stayed in was pretty close to the street. Lies. So anyway, so like so we'll get to it.
+
+[33:09] So uh I you know, you've had uh uh Phil, you had uh Jiang Bing before, uh the Chinese crepe. No, I had maybe the best one that I've had on the streets of Shenzhen, because it's typically a street food, and uh, so for those of you that don't know, you take uh don't make crinkling noises, please. I just heard you over my earphones making a crinkling noise. Why would you this is like she's like a you're like the shaggy children, you children, my children, and Shaggy. I didn't do that.
+
+[33:37] It's like I'm watching you, I'm hearing you and watching you. Anyway, uh so this lady was using a crepe maker, which looked a lot like the French crepe makers, and a raplette, which is the French kind of crepe maker doodad. So she takes this mixture of mung bean and regular flour. I think mung bean's a good word. What do you think, Phil?
+
+[33:55] Can you see it? Mung bean. Oh, that's nice, nice, nice. Nastasy was like, before I didn't want mung beans, but now I do. Now I do.
+
+[34:03] So she takes a this kind of thin crepe batter, raplets it out real thin. And at first I was like, yo, your crepe game is weak because it didn't spread as well as like a traditional French crepe. Because a French crepe, when it goes out onto the crepe maker, is a thing of beauty. Like the the s the swirl, you've seen it, right, Stasen? When they swirl that crepe make that crepe on, a good crepe maker, there's no tears, there's no holes, there's no double swipe.
+
+[34:26] They're just like they ladle it in and whoop and around it goes, and there you go, crepe. What is it that they do, Dave? Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so it's like, you know, there it is.
+
+[34:36] So uh this lady though, I completely misjudged her skills. Her skills were soup dupe on point. So she does the it takes her like two swipe arounds to get the the the mung bean uh crepe all the way out. Then instead, and here's the fun part for those of you that never had one. Here's the fun part of the whole kind of McGillakuddy is, but I've only seen people do it with kind of pre-beaten egg mixtures.
+
+[34:58] She takes the egg out and goes, crack, cracks the whole egg onto the top of the crepe onto the onto the uh raw side of the crepe, right after it sets a little bit. Then she wipes just the white around the entire crepe, leaving the yolk intact, takes the riplette, breaks the yolk, wipes the yolk as a separate layer over the top of the entire thing, then goes chakity chakity chakity with uh sesame seeds over it, flips the crepe, then puts on the sauce and the crumpled up uh crunchy cracker and the crunch-up crunch crunchy cracker, cilantro, lettuce, and some sort of mayonnaise sour cream, whatever mayonnaise thing on top of that, and folds it all in. But it's the combination of the crunchy on the inside of the soft that makes it the big money move. It's the big money move. She's like, Do you want fillings?
+
+[35:49] I was like, No, I want it just like that. Later I'll get the fillings. But there was no later. But anyway, but uh there was there was no later. Then we had it again at the hotel, and the hotel guy was trying to be all game about it.
+
+[36:02] But I was like, You're gonna be better when you become a 70-year-old woman. And you're doing this on the street every day, right? Yes, it's fine. But uh, so that's the one that really has me thinking the most about stuff that I could do because I own a crepe maker. I now have three sacks of mung bean flour in my house.
+
+[36:19] But uh I'll let you I'll let you know if I uh guys, if I if I do anything with it. But then when Nastasi and I get back to Hong Kong, and by the way, hellish ride. Oh, yeah, it's terrible. It was terrible. They like China just shut the border down.
+
+[36:31] They're like, only Shenzhen people can get through now. Because we were in Donguan that day, which is outside of Shenzhen. They're like, crap on Dongguan people. And so the guy's like, okay, crap on me, turns off the car, and we just sit there like we're dead for an hour and a half. On the side of the road, on the side of the road, like jerks, until they're like, okay, non-Shenzen people can go again.
+
+[36:50] And then we went through the border and we made it in real late. We went to a hotel. Hong Kong people, because of the the with the protests, is dead. Like we were at a bunch of bars, and like they the F and B is down like 50%. Hotels are like at like very low occupancy.
+
+[37:07] Like, you know, they're at least 50% below where they normally are. But the thing is, I I feel uh bad about it because as a tourist, you know, even a business tourist like us, did you feel unsafe at all? No. I didn't feel unsafe at all. I mean, the the only thing is that um, you know, you might not be able to go to a particular neighborhood, and like once or twice there have been protests at the airport, so some flights were canceled, but I was not ever in any danger.
+
+[37:40] So, like, you know, I feel like in the well, I don't know, I'm not gonna get into it, but I feel like in the media, like this kind of like the violence has been overblown, and so people are afraid to go. So someone wrote an article where they're like, this is so ridiculous because you know, there's this whole it's it's a big thing over there, but they're like, I went to Hong Kong Disneyland, and there was no one at the rides. Like, that's what you got out of it. Like, this island's in turmoil, and what you get out of it is I get to go to Space Mountain without a wait. I was like, you know, they had way to wait a way to feel for people, brother.
+
+[38:12] You know what I mean? Like, but uh, I I you know I will say that don't be worried about traveling to Hong Kong and go if you're there, go to restaurants and go to hotels. So Nastasi, we're about to go to the night market because uh, but the night market was gonna close in what? 25 minutes. No, like an hour, but we were a half hour away.
+
+[38:33] And Nastassi's like, I don't feel well, I don't want to go. So I was like, Well, there's a three Michelin star restaurant in the lobby of our of our hotel. It's the only three Michelin star Cantonese restaurant. So Nastasia's like, Let's do it. I'm wearing well, you're like, I'm wearing a hoodie.
+
+[38:46] I'm like, eh, who cares? So like we show up, and because uh of the fact that everything's down, there was only like two two people in the entire restaurant. So we we did the we did the whole tasting, and I'm here to say that even when it's three Michelin stars, the people who do the full-on Cantonese food don't like salt. It was the least salt, and like it takes me, people, I've said this before on the air, it takes me at least a week to get used to the low salt level if I'm eating like mainly Cantonese stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:20] Stuff that if you serve me in the United States, I would just drench in soy so that I could get some salt into it. But like, what do you think about the salt double stuff? No, it was not that it was yeah, it was it was good, but it was low, low salt. You wish there was more salt, right? Yes, because you're a salty individual.
+
+[39:34] And then we went to a bar or a singing bar. Oh my god. And we paid for drinks for the band because our credit cards started working again. Yeah, so we were in we were in China and we don't have control over our own credit card. Don't get into it, dude.
+
+[39:47] So they shut down our credit card. So like I had some like old Rem and B's, so we're like going off of like whatever I had in my wallet, like trying to like scrape around and you know, make do. And they turned our credit card on on the last night. So we we yeah, we go to this bar and there's they, by the way, like they turned our credit card on. The bank.
+
+[40:08] Just the bank. Well, yes, we won't get into it. So yeah, we bought a round for the uh for the band, which feels terrific. If you're if you're in a bar, right, and there is a band playing, right? Like a small bar.
+
+[40:22] Yeah, you know, and it's not like, you know, I mean it wasn't fifteen dollar cocktails or thirty dollar, it was like, you know, we bought them, we're like around for the bar. They're appreciative. Much more appreciative than those other jackweeds that were sitting two tables over that just kept screaming requests that they didn't know. You know what I mean? No.
+
+[40:40] It's a class move. Yeah, right. As a musician, you can appreciate this. You want some drinks? It's a long night.
+
+[40:45] Yeah, it's a long night. Makes you feel appreciated. Yeah. And the other thing is that like if you're the kind of musician who won't have anything to drink during your set, you can always postpone it until the set's over. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:57] You could tell the bartender, I'll have mine after the set. Not one of those guys waited. Yeah. No, they did. Not one of those people.
+
+[41:05] Not even the drummer. Yeah, no, no, no. Every drummer thinks they can drum when they're drunk. They can't. Very few people.
+
+[41:12] John Bonham. I mean, okay. Very few people are John Bonham. In fact, John Bonham's not John Bonham anymore. That's correct.
+
+[41:21] It's getting dark. Because he's dead. Carlos writes in. I'm looking to extend the shelf life of cookies and brownies for up to 90 days. So far, uh, I found that the uh water activity, or l big A little W, for those of you that are into searching for symbols in the internet, uh, is a significant factor.
+
+[41:42] That's true. Uh I've heard claims that invert sugars help with this. How does this work? So it's remember, Phil, the things, because there's a whole litany of things that I have to kind of go back and address, right? Uh takes me off.
+
+[41:54] What? She's taking a break. I'm focusing now, Dave. Yeah. She's now she's taking a break.
+
+[42:01] Yeah. What kind of terrible thing are you drinking? Oh, it's from anger class. Nastasia goes to a class about anger. I feel that she doesn't need this.
+
+[42:11] It's like screamy yoga. Right? Yeah. Yeah, but lots of but you don't have to bend yourself into pretzel sheets, right? So uh someone commented on our uh Black Friday video, which by the way, go on the Instagram or Twitter or YouTube's and uh look for the Black Friday video and see it.
+
+[42:25] Nastasia, as per normal, doesn't say anything, but she is paying attention. Yeah, and then Rebecca was gonna get hit in the head. Everyone's like, first of all, I throw a spinzole, and everyone's like, What happened to the spinzole? I was like, I embedded it in Rebecca's head. So it's fine.
+
+[42:43] I really wanted to see the like off-camera video of just Rebecca catching stuff. So I have it, I have it. The issue was this. Like, we shot it in what used to be my apartment, it's now my my sister-in-law and brother-in-law's apartment. But Rebecca didn't step far enough onto camera to be, so she's obscure, like she had also had this complicated headgear on, this reindeer headgear, and like, and like a very highly patterned dress.
+
+[43:10] So it was so rotoscoping is the technique of going in frame by frame and like making a mat so that I can drop the mat out if you can't key someone out with a color key. And it was impossible, it was very hard to rotoscope her out. So if any of you guys are like rotoscope experts, we can get Rebecca back into this commercial. Or we can just show them the original video. But it doesn't work because it's too busy, there's too much other stuff going on, and only Nastasia who cares more about the inside joke than selling anything.
+
+[43:42] It is funnier with Rebecca in it. You don't like the magnets on the fridge in the back. It's not magnificent. There's like a Batman logo. There's like it's a bunch of things, a sink.
+
+[43:50] It's like there's no place to write over because it's like super busy, and there's no there's no way to make her, and she only just half of her like face creeps in on the edge in and out. But it's so awesome. Okay, well, you know, maybe we'll do a uh a B roll where you can put it on your stories of what it looks like or throwing the things, but you know, the unedited version. Uh crazy person. So we've got brownie shelf life.
+
+[44:17] Oh, wait, wait, how'd we get into this? Oh, she was paying attention. Well, how do we get into that? How do I get back on the on the video? Paying attention.
+
+[44:27] Correct. Okay. Uh pH is another important factor, though with bait goods, I'm not sure how I would uh uh adjust the pH and still make the product taste good because you'd have to make it acidic. Uh also as far as additives go, most seem to be are reported to have carcinogenic properties, mostly recorded by A-holes, though. So, like, you know, I I mean, you have to say which preservatives you mean exactly.
+
+[44:49] Um things are real problems and some things are overblown. Uh I just listened to the UR episode where you spoke about potassium. Say potassium. Potassium. Yeah.
+
+[45:00] Potassium sorb. Oh, sorbate's a good word to say it. Sorbate. Oh my god. Phil needs to Phil needs to move back to New York and just like say sorbate over and over again.
+
+[45:10] Yeah, Matt, you gotta monetize this. You gotta like hire Phil to do your uh heritage radio network voiceovers. He could do them from the studio in California. Like, say uh this week on Meet and Three. Um this week on Meet and Three.
+
+[45:26] What do you think? Hired super hired, yeah, right? It's like uh how many of you have seen uh Daddy's Home with Mark Wahlberg and uh I think you were literally the only person in the theater for the entire run of the show. Uh first of all, everyone has seen that. The movies he's like he likes are uh I took my son Dax, who wanted to go see it, but Mark Wahlberg, uh, you know, I'm not gonna spoil anything, but Mark Wahlberg.
+
+[45:44] Don't worry, Evernote. Mark Wahlberg comes in. Say hi to your mother for it. And uh, well, that's kind of what it was like. It's like Mark Wahlberg's the ex and comes in and he's just cooler than Will Farrell and better looking, cooler.
+
+[46:01] Will Farrell works at a radio show, and Mark Wahlberg comes in and out of nowhere gives the most amazing, like uh what's the what's the little jingle thing called for a radio show? Like that little, you know, like weebie 108, like that. Like what's that? Call sign? Okay, yeah, he just gives like the best one ever, like super, and Will Farrell's like, I hate this.
+
+[46:22] And then all of a sudden, just from playing that, the residuals on that, he made more money than Will Farrell made like for his entire career. Anyway, great stuff. Uh you could be that man, Phil Bravo. We can only hope. Yeah.
+
+[46:34] Uh okay. Uh the cookies and brownies are for canon. We're still talking about this question. Oh, yeah. Uh the cookies and brownies are for cannabis edibles, uh, and I hope to help people with serious illnesses, and therefore I want to stay as natural as possible while maintaining the best quality I can.
+
+[46:49] Any little bit of help will be much appreciated. Carlos, now listen. Listen, Carlos, the main thing you have to worry about, and this is what every everyone confuses these things. In fact, I still have I have people confusing this almost weekly. To the extent that people talk to me, they confuse this.
+
+[47:07] When you talk about shelf life or how long something lasts, there are two separate problems. Two separate problems. One is safety, and the other is quality, right? So a lot of people mistake the difference between kind of those two things. Now, um, and there's also various failure mechanisms that can happen, some of which address quality and some of which address um safety, right?
+
+[47:39] So here are the four problems that you're gonna have with a cookie and or a brownie. Now a cookie is gonna last a lot longer than a brownie because it is typically lower in moisture, right? But you're gonna have these problems. One, molds and other kind of yeast. And that's what your thing, like your uh sorry, your uh potassium sorbate's gonna be uh for.
+
+[48:02] And the difference between those two things, sorbic uh potassium sorbate is just a sorbic acid salt, right? So it's kind of purified and it's a salt of that, easier to use, eater, easier to buy. Frankly, uh the same crap, uh, right? So that's what you're gonna use to inhibit things like a mold, but bear in mind you're not gonna get mold on a product if there's not a lot of moisture in it. So if most of the softness of your product is coming from fat, let's say butter, right, and very little of it is coming from uh like water from egg, then you're gonna get very little mold.
+
+[48:37] In fact, when was the last time you saw like a super dense, fudgy brownie mold? You don't really see it that often. Uh you'd see it on breads, but typically on high moisture breads. That's why you won't see a lower moisture bread uh mold on you. But uh a little bit of sorbate will probably help kill down on the on that mold.
+
+[48:56] Another problem you're gonna have is rancidity. So a lot of what goes wrong in a cookie or a brownie, especially something that's based on butter, right? The thing about shortbread, which has a lot of butter in it, like is allowed to go, is is a long-term product. It has almost zero moisture, it's just kind of flour held together with butter, and that tends to protect against rancidity, and plus the flavor of a shortbread is okay when the butter is changed a little bit, but a lot of the off flavors you're gonna get in baked goods over a long period of time is gonna be rancidity. So to stop rancidity, if your people are paying a lot of money, which they will for a cannabis edible, is put some oxygen scavenging packaging in, or think of even doing a modified atmosphere packaging where you pump like an inert atmosphere into the package so that um you know, if the water activity is low enough, obviously bacteria aren't gonna grow, uh, such that you're inhibiting uh rancidity.
+
+[49:46] Another thing is moisture migration. So in a cookie, things go stale uh and things things either go stale or they go too wet one way or the other, depending on kind of uh what what the moisture balance is between the crust and the inside. So for that is choosing something that has a relatively uniform moisture content throughout, it's gonna make it easy to keep the moisture content the same. And packaging it in an airtight fashion, so there's no moisture migration in or out, is gonna make your life easier. The higher the fat content, obviously, the lower the staling will be because there's kind of less structure there going on.
+
+[50:19] Or if it's a cookie that has very little water in it, there's also gonna be very little starch retrogradation because in fact the starch is hardly ever functionalized at all. And so that's not gonna go stale as long as the moisture doesn't kind of um leak, leak in and out of it. So that's definitely a moisture management problem. Ooh, it's not recognized my so you have your staling, your moisture management, your rancidity, and your mold. Those are your main kind of an issue, and I think they're all fairly easy to deal with with uh packaging requirements and just making sure that you don't have a lot of um kind of residual moisture left in.
+
+[50:54] Is that a okay answer? I had something, I had something else that was gonna field I had something else to I had something else relating to packaging cookies and brownies. Nastasi and I once had to vacuum down a whole boatload of cookies that we had made for the troops. That was a damn nightmare. But the cookies lasted forever because they were vacuum packed.
+
+[51:13] I mean that's yeah, Dave. Yeah, yeah. I had a way, but I had a good packaging idea. Anyway. Sean Lewis wrote in.
+
+[51:25] Hi, Nastasia. Uh I submitted a question. Uh I'm coming back into the cocktail world and would love to see if Dave is giving classes. I theoretically am giving classes, but uh in other words, I'm still on the FCI's website, but I am not I am You're not teaching classes. I want to teach classes, and and Greg Bohm wants me to teach classes on the uh who?
+
+[51:48] Greg Bohm, partner at the time. I thought you were gonna say what you came with. Anyway, um all right, and there's another way question I will get to in one second. Here. I mixed up a batch of milkwash clarified punch and bottle it last week.
+
+[51:58] It was a very uh variation on Philadelphia Fish House punch with pear, peach, pear, and fall spices. Fal spices. What do you think about false spices? I love false spices. Yeah, is that basically mean pumpkin pie spice?
+
+[52:10] I think so. It's pumpkin's spice, but it's also the, you know, it's like the what's the thing that you boil in the house and you make it all like what? Huh? Cloves? Yeah, good stuff.
+
+[52:20] Uh I simmered the cesiup with ginger. Oh, it was very tasty, it went well, but I made one big mistake. I simmered the cizurip with ginger. I noticed that ginger syrup was cloudy as I expected it to be, but I wrongly guessed it would clear up with the milk washing. Nah, man, starch.
+
+[52:34] It's very hard to trap on to starch. Starch is a pain. You can wait a long time to settle it out, or you can use a very, very sharp knife to cut your ginger and then not stir it or beat it up, and then it won't throw off as much cloud. I mixed the milk punch ingredients, added them to the milk, and let the whole mix sit for two hours, stirring occasionally to let the Casey and Curds mop everything up. That's good practice.
+
+[52:55] Then I spun it out and it spins all for about two hours, two hours. That's a long time, man. Two hours, long time. Long time. Too long.
+
+[53:02] Too long. You're gonna evaporate too much of your uh product. Like 10 minutes. Ten minutes. Uh then spun it out and the spins all for about two hours and drew some test glasses to check for particles.
+
+[53:12] Uh I couldn't see even the teeny speck of pulp, and yet the drink was still cloudy, probably the starch. I probably I ran the centrific centrifuge liquid through a chemex filter and Shiwan ran it uh and it ran through quick and clean as water, but it was still cloudy. Uh next day I made another ginger syrup, let it cool, treat it with pectanex, and let it sit pectanex and won't kill the starch. When I came back, I was just made to see no break at all. Yeah, cloudy, yeah, starch.
+
+[53:32] Those are all my available clarifying techniques at home. I don't have any wine finding agents. So my question is this wine finding agents won't work on starch. Is there something about ginger syrup that cannot be clarified or just just muck it up? A related milk punch question.
+
+[53:43] Is milk punch self-stable because the case encouraged the track and bind to the enzymes uh that produce bitter lemon? Uh that's an interesting question. Uh I've made a cordial that was pretty lemonin protected because it was heated. I don't know if milk, I don't think the milk's gonna pull all of it out, but the only way to see is to see whether it goes uh stability is another thing. Clear milk punch will go cloudy after a week or so because the case the uh whey proteins will settle out and you can re spin it.
+
+[54:07] Here's what you ought to do do your initial spin, put the sucker into bottles, tall bottles, tall, tall things. Let it sit. Uh do you remember Epic, the song Epic from uh from uh oh, what's it, Faith No More? Anytime someone says let it sit, what is it? Let it sit, what is it?
+
+[54:28] Mike Patton, anyone, Mr. Bungle, anyone? I mean, Mr. Bungle, absolutely, but the famous Mr. Bungle song.
+
+[54:36] Uh well, no, but it wasn't. That was Faith No More. So Mike Patton was in Mr. Bungle, went in the went into Faith No More. Faith No More was like, people actually like this.
+
+[54:47] We can make a lot of money. And he's like, no, I'm going back to Mr. Bungle. So he went back to Mr. Bungle and Faith No More kind of fell through the cracks.
+
+[54:53] Anyway, you let it sit for a long time, the starch will settle out. Uh and it'll settle out a lot harder and stronger than it will if you haven't spun out the majority of the solids first. Then pour that, I'm talking like a week. Don't touch it. Then, like, don't touch it.
+
+[55:10] Don't move the container, make sure the container is round. Then gently pour all of the clear stuff off in the top. Then you'll have a small amount at the bottom that you can try to respin or just let it go, but you'll get a pretty high yield of very clear stuff. It's just gonna take you a week. Uh that's what I would recommend doing.
+
+[55:28] So for Thanksgiving, uh, I am going to do my uh thing where I cut the backbone out of the bird, rip the main bones out, leave most of the bones, take a stuffing plug. I'm gonna cook the stuffing plug in the oven so it's nice and hot. Then I'm gonna I'm gonna take and I'm gonna wrap the bird into some sort of like crazy thing. I'm gonna shove the the stumps of the inside of the legs against a hot pan for a while to start the cooking on the inside there, and then I'm gonna maybe air dry the skin. Then I'm gonna drape the the turkey over the hot stuffing plug, put it back into the freaking oven, and then cook it from both sides.
+
+[56:08] Cooking my bird from both sides. No. And then it's gonna come in and we're gonna we're gonna have my my turkey. That's how I'm doing my turkey. No one called in any any questions, but I do have if you have a question, Dave.
+
+[56:20] What is it? No. 10 five minutes, 10 minutes. What is it? We gotta go.
+
+[56:23] I'm gonna be very quick. Okay. What's it the pulquet? Mexico City. We were doing fine.
+
+[56:28] Right. Felt great the entire time. Right. Washed out and throughout my water. Pulke is a kind of like milky tequila adjacent, but it's like a milky beverage that is from fermented.
+
+[56:42] I guess it's like the frass that's left over after you like squeeze out the no, no, no, no. It's separate. They have they have a different agave that they tap and then they take the stuff out of it. So was it the this is the question with water content? Was it the polque?
+
+[56:55] I was doing fine. Yeah. Polke last day. Yeah. It was uh it was a terrible week, Dave.
+
+[57:00] A terrible week, I think. Well, like mentally or butt-wise. I mean butt-wise. Yeah, well, um, so agave has a lot of inulin in it. And so uh by the way, for those of you that don't know, uh Phil Bravo was the person that Nastasia Lopez uh sun choked in the butt.
+
+[57:15] Oh, that is also true, yeah. Yeah. Where she gave him a bunch of raw sliced sunchoke and was like, enjoy this delicious salad. And uh I would bet, I don't know, I've never had the pleasure of having a lot of pulke, but I would bet it's the inulin. I would bet that there's some sort of residual inulin in the pulke that is messing with the butt.
+
+[57:38] Yeah. Because the thing about inulin So the answer is it was the polque. Probably. Like there's I don't know. I've never had pulquet.
+
+[57:45] I and I didn't know you're gonna ask this. I could have looked up, I could have yeah, I could have looked up residual inulin content in polque if you know if I had known, but the the issue is is that the main sh uh the main carbohydrate in that is used to ferment agave beverages is inulin inulin is a um is a fructose uh polysaccharide a f like a fructose polymer so it's it's broken down to fructose but your body can't break down inulin but you know who can the bacteria in your gut and so he doesn't take uh probiotics it doesn't matter there's no wouldn't wait assuming you have bacteria in your gut your bacteria can turn that inulin into like gas gas gas gas and I think if you eat an enough of it you probably get accustomed to it and like maybe you develop uh like you know gut bacteria that don't produce gas when they're digesting inulin but uh for most of us it makes for a nasty a nasty farty uh pain a painful fart too like we ended this on a high note you're welcome to no no he's still going all right so listen listen but we're we have two we have two things so normally uh I I'm gonna end I end with the classics in the field but today we're we're gonna end with uh so we're not I'm not even gonna talk about it and when classics in the field is done Nastasi and I are allowed exactly once per year Phil Bravo will sing the Grinch song for us and so he's gonna it's like it it's his version of piping us in and out he's gonna do the the Grinch song and now that Thor Ravencroft the original singer people think Boris Karloff sang the original Grinch did not Boris Karloff was the voice of the Grinch but the the singing voice of the Grinch was Thoral Ravencroft, which is there a better name ever, Phil, than Thor Ravencroft? There is not. Right. So thorough Thorough Ravencroft was uh that's bearitone, right?
+
+[59:40] Is it is there something below Barry Tone? Base bear tone. Base bearitone, yeah. Uh so Phil Bravo does an amazing uh Thorough Ravencroft uh Grinch, which he will pipe us out with uh in a minute. And so I'm gonna do classics in the field, and then we're gonna do Phil's.
+
+[59:54] So I'm gonna wish you a happy Thanksgiving now. And uh are we back next Tuesday, Sas? Yeah. Are we back next Tuesday? So write us in with your Thanksgiving nightmares, how you burnt your turkey, etc.
+
+[1:00:04] etc. Okay, ready? Classics are in the field, yeah! All right, so today's classics in the field is not a cooking book, but there is inf information in it that is uh cooking related. So, for those of you that have hung around me for any length of time, and Nastasia hates talking about this.
+
+[1:00:20] I believe that every human being should learn to tie a bunch of knots. I believe that it's just a skill you should have. I think you should have a knife with you almost all the time, because what if you should need to cut something like a box? Uh, and I think you should have a bunch of knots, and knots are the kinds of things you need to kind of practice. Now, if you're gonna get a modern knot book, go get one of Joffrey Budworth or Dead Paw Dead uh uh Pawson's books on um on knots.
+
+[1:00:47] They're great. Uh they're very good, but there's only one book of knots that everyone can agree is like the Ur reference, like the the magic maestro reference of knots. It came out in 1944. It's the Ashley Book of Knots, and it's uh it was put out by a guy named Cliff uh Clifford Warren Ashley, who was born in New Bedford, by the way, a whaling town. You been to New Bedford?
+
+[1:01:11] I have not. You have not? I've not been to New Bedford. So that means you haven't gone to the Whaling Museum? I have not gone to the Whaling Museum yet.
+
+[1:01:18] Nastasia, have you been to the Whaling Museum? Yep. Did you love it? Yep. It's also like the Herman Melville town.
+
+[1:01:23] She hasn't actually been. She's just saying that to get me off her back. Have you actually been? I've been to a whaling museum in Zack Harbor, but not the one in New Bedford. You gotta go to the New Bedford Whaling Museum.
+
+[1:01:29] The amazing thing about the New Bedford Whaling Museum is that in the 70s when I went, it was pro still pro-whaling. And now it's very anti-whaling, but it's still kind of amazing. And there's uh there's like little dribblings of Herman Melville all around the town. Great place. So anyway, uh Clifford Ashley was uh there.
+
+[1:01:47] He was an artist, but he went around collecting knots, and he wrote the most amazing knot book uh that you're ever gonna see called Ashley Book of Knots. It's I uh don't think it's available on the web because it's still in print all of these years later. Um he wrote it, if published it in 1944 and had a stroke in 1945. So it was his last work. He didn't even get a chance to uh change to change it, but he kind of pioneered the art of drawing knots and how to make them.
+
+[1:02:18] But the cool thing about it is for the better part of 40 years, he traveled the the earth looking for knots in all places. So he has a section, and a lot of it is nautical. Uh, as he as he says, although the sailor may be responsible for nine-tenths of all recorded knots, he can hardly claim to it's early time, so it's they use he, you know, it's 1944. Uh claimed to be the originator of the first knot. For primitive people learned to hunt and fish before they ever took to water.
+
+[1:02:48] I I de I the last part is still gendered. I degenerated it because I can't stand to read it in fully gendered form. Uh, but he has this section on occupational knots, and it's amazing because he just goes through a bunch of uh occupations. For instance, knots for the archer, the artillery man, the artist, the angler, the automobilist, which I guess there was still a word in the 40s for the automobilist. The baker, the pretzel knot is too widely known to require much description, but there are several varieties, and often nowadays the pretzels are stamped out by machinery instead of being tied, which is a shame.
+
+[1:03:19] Even in the 40s, my God, the stent pretzel is an abomination. Pretzels are twisted. People, pretzels are twisted. A stant pretzel is a sad pretzel. It's not a pretzel at all.
+
+[1:03:28] It's a garbage. It's a cookie. It's garbage. It's a biscuit. The giant pretzel knot is from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
+
+[1:03:35] It is about 10 inches long. It goes on and on for this. The basket maker, the bell ringer, the bootmaker, the burglar. I would do nothing to encourage the activities of this arch enemy of society, but I will urge them to consider the awful sequence of the following knots with all its direful implications. So he talks about what knots burglars can use.
+
+[1:03:54] But then we go to the butcher. The butcher's knots are required in tying up boned and rolled roasts and in preparing corned beef and salt pork for pickling. After passing the end of twine around the meat with a uh simple noose of some sort is made, etc. etc. But then goes through listing that he has gone to every butcher shop that he can find in the Washington, DC area where he's living at the time, and rates every single butcher's knot that you can find.
+
+[1:04:20] And he's like, he'll say things like, uh, I don't know if it's like there's a there's a lot, so I don't know if I can make it make it through it. But then he goes through making fun of uh people who use granny knots. He's like, he's like, that knot, maybe that knot would work for a fresh roast, but it's not gonna work for a corned beef knot. You can't re-pull up the string in this one. So if you want a very long-winded, like three-page small type exegesis into different kinds of knots, and what he very, very kindly puts an a star, an Ashley star, next to the butcher knot of choice that he chooses, which I can maybe put on my uh Instagram later.
+
+[1:04:59] He goes through and tells you which knot he believes you should use. But no one has gone through every occupation looking for the knots the way that Ashley has. And if you're ever serious about being a human being, I recommend getting the Ashley Book of Knots and at least looking up the knots that fit your application your occupation, if nothing else. Learn to tie at least 15 good knots. Get yourself a good get yourself a good hitch.
+
+[1:05:26] Get yourself a good uh, you know, get yourself a good bend, which is how you tie two things together. Uh get yourself a good stopper knot at the very minimum! Get yourself a good loop knot, people! Alpine butterfly, good one. Anyway, fast to tie.
+
+[1:05:42] Uh just read it, enjoy it, and if you can't afford to buy it because it's still expensive, get something from Des Pawson or uh or Joffrey Budworth. Anyway, that has been Classics in the field. Happy Thanksgiving, and now we have Phil Bravo doing the Grinch. Do I have any backup or no? No.
+
+[1:06:02] What do you mean? It's not no. I need an intro. How does it how does the intro go? I don't know.
+
+[1:06:06] It's a big big band. Like potato, potato. Uh didle d-diddy. You're a mean one. Mr.
+
+[1:06:18] Grinch. You really are a heel. You're as cuddly as a cactus. You're as charming as an eel, Mr. Grinch.
+
+[1:06:29] I think you did your uh what is it? Schutengorp. Schutengorp. But it wasn't an angry one. I I didn't make the fist.
+
+[1:06:36] I just did the I did this. Okay. It's true. But we can close on. You're a bad banana with a greasy black peel.
+
+[1:06:45] Strong. Strong. The Grinch. The Grinch. Happy Thanksgiving.
+
+[1:06:44] Cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:07:11] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:07:33] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Nourish and Flourish is a proud supporter of Heritage Radio Network. Nourish and Flourish. Handcrafted, ad-free. Print and multimedia content from around the world with stunning photography and video. Subscribe at nourish and flourish.
+
+[0:21] This week on Meet and Three, we're diving straight no chaser into the delicious crossover of the food and jazz worlds. And I think that sense of nostalgia is what makes it hard to do New Orleans food well because people just have these memories of these dishes. Certainly, people from New Orleans like you're never gonna make you know a gumbo as good as their mother or grandmother made, right? Comfort foods, you gotta get your hands dirty, and uh jazz is a musician, it's just like it all goes together very well, you know. Check out Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:21] Join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Good. Got Matt in the booth, how you doing?
+
+[1:26] I'm doing great. I got some guy on the phone. I haven't even talked to him yet, but we already have a call. That's amazing. Amazing.
+
+[1:31] We'll take the caller and then we'll talk about our normal beginning of show, talk about stuff. Hey Dave, this is Zev from New York. How are you doing? Good, how are you? I got I haven't heard the beginning of the show, so I don't actually know what's going on.
+
+[1:46] But in any case, you are the beginning, my friend. Excellent. Um, so I have a Hanukkah party coming up in a couple of weeks. Uh, and I have a recipe for potato latkas that I've used for the last couple of years that I really like, and it involves shredding the potatoes, soaking them in water to pull out um some of the starch and then wringing them out right um to get them as dry as possible. Um and recipe's really great.
+
+[2:13] I really love the outcome. Um, but I'm working on scaling it up. Um last year I did 20 pounds of potatoes, and by um the end of the the time I had to spend um putting the potatoes in towels and wringing the water out of them, um I was sore for sore for three days. So I'm trying to come up with a way to recreate the procedure, which is again putting them the soaking them in water and then um getting all of the water out of them um just in a more scalable way, and thought you might have some ideas. Well, when I have too many things to squeeze out, I go put them into my 20-ton shop press.
+
+[2:55] But I'm assuming that you do not want to invest in a 20-ton shop press. Probably not. I did start looking at some screw presses online, and they were about a hundred bucks, which is uh probably a little more than I want to spend for a once-a-year tool. Yeah. Um what kind of screw press?
+
+[3:16] Like, what are they intended for? For like apple cider? Juice. Yeah, for juice and and cheese. Yeah.
+
+[3:22] I mean, those will work, and they uh are I mean, the the nice thing about a hydraulic press, obviously, is it pushes straight down. And when you're twisting something, well, then you have to like put the thing between your knees or bolt it down to a table or something like that to stop it from uh twisting. Um let me see. Well, uh what equipment do you own? Like a vacuum machine can help dry it out a little bit, but then you're gonna be blasting through your and it's gonna take forever.
+
+[3:51] It'd probably be easier just to squeeze the stuff. Um I don't have a vacuum machine. Um but I have a pretty well stocked kind of standard standard kitchen. Yeah, I mean the the the you know the the best thing to substitute for ringing something in a towel is squishing the hell out of it, and the best thing to squish the hell out of it with it is in in this order a a hydraulic press, uh, then probably some form of screw press. Uh you know, because most things like let's say like m potato ricer, for instance.
+
+[4:23] Like, let's say you let's say you took a potato ricer, lined it with uh like a super bag, put your potatoes in and then squeezed it the hell out of it that way. I mean, first of all, like the one section has a lot more force on it than the other section does because it's it's an angle, right? And and you know, you're not getting the equal force per, you know, per area on that on the angle because of your make mechanical leverage there, but also it's such a small quantity, you know what I'm saying? That you can do it one time that it's not gonna be that now. If you're willing to substitute your time for money, you can kind of make a screw press.
+
+[5:01] But the problem with making a screw press is that you know, usually they don't they don't work as well because you don't have the the correct pitch, and then to get a big enough uh thread so that it doesn't bind and then to get it to go down straight. Another alternative is you can buy used on eBay, you could get like an enterprise uh sausage stuffer and use that, which is what I recommended to the Museum of Food and Drink that they use for their duck press because they couldn't afford to buy a real duck press. And they ended up really liking uh the Enterprise Sausage Stuffer as a as a duck press. Um the it and and they're very rugged, they're cast iron, so occasionally they do break, but they're very rugged. Uh and they have they can come with uh uh if you look carefully, an insert with that has a mesh screen so that you don't have to bag it before you throw it into your into your press.
+
+[5:51] Now, the downside of them uh is that they were built a long time ago, and so any solder joint uh or any paint that is on it is most likely lead contaminated. So there's that. Uh but some of them are pretty clean. Uh but I believe that the strainer baskets do have solder joints on them. I can't it's been a long time since I have owned one, but that's that's my memory.
+
+[6:18] The other thing, and I don't know if it'll give you enough pressure, but it's very cheap and you can return it if it breaks, is places like Grizzly, which I believe is cheaper than Cabela's, uh sells a very sub $100 uh five-pound sausage stuffer. And you could fairly easily with a sack, you know what you want the the issue is clogging at the at the bottom, so you need some form of very strong uh like slats or something at the bottom, right? And then preferably slats around the side. So if you get the sausage stuffer and then you just get very like thin, you know, pieces of wood and lined your sausage stuffer with thin pieces. This is why like a press basket for um for apples and whatnot.
+
+[7:03] The the reason they're always made of slats or they have some sort of insert with something in it, is so that is that even when you're pushing on it real hard, that there are some spaces that are just supported by the press cloth where the liquid can come out, otherwise the liquid would get blocked by the actual product that you're trying to squish. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I'm I'm just thinking I don't I've never used a sausage stuffer, so I'm I'm a little confused. What you just said about baskets and and slats make sense.
+
+[7:30] I'm a little confused as to how would you use a sausage stuffer to ring something to squeeze liquid out of sauce? So I'd have to look at the sausage stuffers because it's been a while. So the way so there's there's a couple of different kinds of sausage stuffer, but the two most common style are the press style, which you know you you you you push it and it's got something that looks kind of like a tube, uh like a horn rather. It looks kind of like a like a shofar, right? Yep, and then you pull down it.
+
+[7:57] And then the other kind has a crank on the top of it with uh a pinion gear, and then uh that like takes a central uh thread and pushes the uh pushes a plunger down and squishes the sausage out through the bottom through a hole. And these are the ones that are very close to uh an enterprise, which was sold both as a fruit press and as a sausage stuffer because on the farm, who had the money for both a sausage stuffer and a fruit press? You know what I'm saying? So um with one of those, right, with a sausage stuffer, then you know, the the mentally you just you know wrap in in cheesecloth or whatever the potatoes, throw them into the five pound sausage stuffer, so you could do it in four batches, let's say 20 pounds, and then you crank down on it, the plunger goes down and just squishes the ever loving hell out of it, and all of the nasty pinkish, disgusting potato water with its itinerant starch and and dissolved sugars shoots out the bottom, right? Now the where the meat would usually come out.
+
+[8:59] Where the meat would usually come out. So what you would need to do then is put like little slab. So with the Enterprise, look on eBay at the Enterprise Sausage Stuffer. So the Enterprise, you could either use it as a sausage stuffer or you had a cast iron press plate that went or cra cast iron plate that went into the bottom that was perforated but also very strong, so you could push on it real hard. And so then the entire bottom became a place where juice could leak out and then into the into the thing.
+
+[9:28] Otherwise, you're gonna have to, like I say, put some form of slat work at the bottom so that there's a place for the juices to run. And then you might might also need slat work on the sides, but I don't know what the clearance between the edge of the plunger and the um the edge of the plunger and the um uh and the side walls of the five-pound guy are. The nice thing about the five-pound guy, completely stainless, so you don't have to worry about uh anything else. But just go on the uh go on eBay, or I'm sure there didn't used to be, you know, 20 years ago, but I'm sure there are now websites all you know devoted to the enterprise sausage stuffer. Uh but look at the old uh fruit press sausage stuff, but look at those.
+
+[10:13] They're also kind of cool to own, and you can use it for other things like like sausage, but go do a little bit of research on those and then also look at the uh you know the one I had was Grizzly and I think it was like 50 something bucks, and you can also use it for sausage. And it if you ever make sausage or if you're interested in doing it, like it completely makes short work of that, right? As opposed to the nightmare of trying to stuff sausages any other way. Like, even if you only do it a couple of times a year, just the joy of using one of those things to sus uh stuff sausage. Now, if you have a good meat grinder, I'm assuming you don't have a fancy meat grinder, because a fancy meat grinder could do that as well.
+
+[10:50] You just, you know, run it through the auger without the cutting plate and you can go into it tube. I mean, but for instance, the kitchen aid sausage stuffing attachment for their first of all, the kitchen aid meat grinder attachment is a freaking abomination. It's you know, maybe it's horrible. It's a horrible. And like the sausage stuffer attachment for it is similarly horrible.
+
+[11:10] It's just a horrible piece of equipment. And I like Kitchen Aid. I'm not saying anything negative about their products in general. I'm just saying that product is garbage. Yep.
+
+[11:20] You know, you know what's not garbage, but I don't know why it costs so much money. Is the pasta attachment for a kitchen aid? It's ridiculous. Have you seen how much that costs? Those are great, they're great.
+
+[11:29] I have one. I love it. Yeah, they're fantastic, but why do they cost so much? Why does the pasta roller cost so much? So I b I bought, what did I buy?
+
+[11:39] I I actually had took my old pasta, my hand, my hand crank atlas, which are reasonably priced. The problem with hand crank pasta makers is you really want to have two hands to mess with the pasta sheet, but you can't because one hand is cranking, right? I mean, isn't that the real problem with a hand crank pasta maker? I mean, in my opinion, plus you have to bolt it down, right? So I believe I disappeared.
+
+[12:07] So I have no idea how someone would do it without two hands, so I'm with you. Yeah, I mean, you could do it. It's just, you know, I never enjoyed, you know, you know, not having a third hand there, right? And I'm not that guy who's asking or waiting for someone to get home, so I'm gonna make pasta because it's doable, it's just a pain in the butt. But I think what I did was did I buy the roller unit for the thing, but then adapted all of my old cutters with a 3D printer?
+
+[12:31] I think I built a 3D printed attachment to adapt the KitchenAid to my pasta maker. Anyway, uh it's been so long, but yeah, because I just couldn't I I couldn't in good conscience pay what they wanted, but I should have because that is one of the better attachments, I have to say. You know what is also a very good attachment for the KitchenAid? I don't know if I talked about it on air. For my entire adult life, I wanted to own a vegetable sheeter like that makes the the Daikon sheets, and uh, you know, and then you know, I was told by Japanese chefs what an a-hole I was, that I should learn to you know take a Nusuba, a vegetable knife, and cut my own sheets.
+
+[13:17] So I did, and it's possible, but I still always kind of wanted one of those sheets. And the ones at JB Prince were always super expensive, and they had the fancy one that would not only cut a sheet, but also had like a almost like an interrupted pasta roller that would perforate it to turn the daikon sheet into a fishnet. Have you seen these? I don't know. Anyway, they're great.
+
+[13:38] Oh, I'm here. Sorry, I didn't know if that was a question from here. Yeah, I mean, Nastasia doesn't care. I mean, what do you think? Do you like those fish?
+
+[13:43] Have you seen the fishnet diecon? Fishnet Daikon, cool. I mean, I have no reason to own it, and so like I have too much stuff anyway at the house, so I never bought one. But then KitchenAid uh came out with a sheeting attachment, and I finally it went on super sale one day, so I finally bought it, and having vegetable sheets is awesome. Specifically, what do you do with them?
+
+[14:06] Well, specifically potato sheets. So, like uh, you can do you can make these like long, long, long potato sheets and then do very fine layered uh like uh gratin with them, and they're great. They really are. Bake them like lasagna, fantastic. Uh but stuff to potatoes for a second.
+
+[14:23] So I I really like your idea with the sausage stuffers. I'm gonna I'm gonna take a look at those. Do you in terms of just the overall method? I mean, this has been working really well for me to get kind of really shoestringy, crispy latkas by soaking soaking the potatoes and ringing it back out. Uh-huh.
+
+[14:40] Um, do you think I'm over it's overkill? Or do you think that something like uh you know throwing the potatoes in the oven or a dehydrator could get me something similar instead of squeezing, or is it the way to go? Do you have a dehydrator? No, but I've always thought about buying one. I mean, dehydrators are nice to have.
+
+[14:56] For instance, like let's say your name's Nastasia Lopez and you want to have apple head dolls. Then I did them with that one. Uh she used her oven, yes, because having a dehydrator takes her over the line into that stereotype of SoCal women who make apple heads at home. And Nastasi didn't want to be that SoCal expat with a freaking, you know, dehydrator full of apple heads. Yep.
+
+[15:19] She has she would you wouldn't be that, right? Unacceptable. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. Uh, but having uh an excalibre around is always uh, you know, a good thing to have.
+
+[15:29] Uh, you know, in general, like, unless you eat that way all the time, you're gonna go in spurts, like you're gonna you're gonna use it a lot and then you're not gonna use it for a year, and then you're gonna use it a lot and then you're not gonna use it for a year. But I'm fine with that. Me personally. Um, you know, now I only use it when Nastasia doesn't want to, you know, do her broke broke uh apple heads in her oven. How would have the oven ones come out?
+
+[15:52] Great. Yeah. Anyway, so I was gonna say, if you have one, I would try it. Ringing out is a little bit different because there's no heat damage to it, right? And you're squeezing it, so you're uh also expelling things, whereas dehydrating is just getting rid of water.
+
+[16:06] So if you think about this, all of the stuff that came out with the water, like all that nasty colored stuff, which is starches, sugars, and enzymatically converted stuff, because I'm assuming your water is gross and your towel looks pink and gross at the end, am I right? Oh yeah. Yeah. So uh none of that stuff will come out of the potato in a dehydration or an oven step. It will all stay in the potato.
+
+[16:28] Uh what will leave is water in the form of the body. Yeah, that doesn't sound like it'll work. And that's also I I usually soak them overnight and then ring them out the morning of. Um and ringing them out and getting all of the getting everything out of there seems to prevent them from turning brown as fast when I start cooking, because I just cooked in batches with a bag of them on the table. So I yeah, no, that that sounds right that heating them wouldn't get me the same uh outcome.
+
+[16:54] And presumably you're so you're soaking in e excess water, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I use a big I would had a bucket for a while and I've upped uh as we've added more people to our Hanukkah party every year, now I have to use like a full-size Coleman cooler. Uh nice with the potatoes in there.
+
+[17:09] I mean, if you think think about it this way, right? There's a there's a couple of things, like uh there's starch that you mentioned, which is true. Uh, but also there are um I don't know what the soaking frankly does, whether it reduces the level of the enzymes that cause brown. I have no idea. But yeah, I'm presumably it does.
+
+[17:26] Um, but the the sugars also are going to get soaked out by the water. So that's what the other thing when you're soaking um, for instance, fries. Like one of the things you're doing is soaking out a lot of the sugars, and in a shredded potato, obviously it's gonna soak out even you know more and faster than it will in a larger cut uh potato kind of a uh situation. But yeah, look so do you do do you add seltzer to your uh latkas or no? Shorty adds seltzer to his latkas.
+
+[17:55] I I don't um I I guess but people do that for to make them fluffier, yeah. No, I just do egg, mozzamal, and onion. Um and I kind of mix them up in in small batches and just as I get them into the pan. Yeah. The way you said mix them up reminded me of Ice Cube saying uh mix them up, put them in a pot like gumbo, which is one of my favorite lines in that on that album.
+
+[18:19] But the um yeah, I mean, don't change your recipe. I'm just saying everyone has a different idea of what's perfect for them. If what you got works, you know, don't try to change it so much, it's just adapt to a larger thing. Unless you run a test and you find out, hey, I can oven these things down and they'll be fine, but I just don't think it's gonna be the same. No, it doesn't sound like it.
+
+[18:36] Cool. Well, I'm thinking about coming to the existing conditions uh New Year's party if that's still if that's still happening. As far as I know, I just gotta talk to the partners and get it all straightened out. Cool. Alrighty, thanks.
+
+[18:48] Good luck with your lotcases. Happy Hanukkah. Yep, take care. Speaking of holidays, uh Nastasia, how's your Thanksgiving? It was good.
+
+[18:56] Yeah, what'd you do? I went to my friend's house. She cooked most of the food. Everyone else had to bring things. That was the turkey.
+
+[19:03] Great. Uh-huh. For real? She can cook turkey. Yeah.
+
+[19:06] Really? No, it was a great we had a great time until you called me constantly. Uh I first of all, people like Nastasia and I ruin each other's Thanksgiving. Yeah, but I really didn't want to. I was like, listen, uh if you want me to leave, I can leave.
+
+[19:21] I didn't say leave. I know, but then I was that meant like stop texting me. No, but I couldn't stop texting you. We had stuff we needed to do. There's nothing I could have done about it, though, in that situation, in that in that room, in that house, where we're going to be able to do it.
+
+[19:34] Well, you there was nothing you could have done at home. Right. So if I'm going to go to the house, no. Oh, I was enjoying myself. Yeah, the boat is sinking.
+
+[19:43] We're talking about Good Friday and the I mean not Good Friday. Uh Black Friday and the Black Friday sale. And sorry, you own a business. There's just stuff you have to do, and it doesn't require you to go home. I could have done.
+
+[19:54] Like anything. Nothing. We both needed to be aware and surprise the people. Yeah, so wow, that, yeah. Mm-hmm.
+
+[20:01] And then you kept going. I was like, okay. Should I stop dancing? Nastasi is being a jerk. No, it's true.
+
+[20:09] Like, and everyone's like, what is going on with you? Why can't you? And you're like, well, our business is going to hell in a handbasket. I just need to focus on this for a minute. I can't do anything.
+
+[20:18] Well, in fact, we did. We bought pressure on the person who needed to change the stuff and it got changed. And we called her. And it got changed. We called her.
+
+[20:25] It didn't require you to murder. Oh, I have to go home. Stop it. No, you have to miss one version of Delight. So that you can walk outside of the room.
+
+[20:35] It wasn't an hour and a half. It was literally four texts over the course of half of an hour, and you had to check it maybe three times. Oh, and I feel so bad about it. Wait, Matt, do I feel bad about it? I I can't tell.
+
+[20:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have thought that you'd like to do that. I don't feel that the video of you guys throwing all the equipment would have single handedly saved your business. Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt. If it was just easy enough to try to do a good job and make something and then sell it on Amazon, but Amazon throws, and by the way, the stuff that Nastasi and I handle, like the spinzall and the cube, like we flipped that switch in the morning.
+
+[21:09] Like Nastasi and I got on the phone and we're like, yo, we're flipping the switch now so they don't have to worry about it later. And guess what? That worked. That worked. Yep.
+
+[21:20] What didn't work was the one that Amazon had some control over. People get this. You'll enjoy this, people, I think, right? So Amazon.com, right? Our favorite.
+
+[21:33] I believe they're not even like, I don't like them the way I like Peter, right? So, like, even though we punch on Amazon a lot, they are not my favorite punching bag. Like, we just punch them, right? Because they do they freaking deserve it. Get this.
+
+[21:46] The Searsol. By the way, we have a patent on this device. We also have a patent on the cocktail cube, which we'll talk more about maybe someday. Uh, and a patent on the spinzole. Uh, we have a patent on it.
+
+[21:57] We make it. Amazon buys it from us in China. So they have 100% control. So Nastasi and I got sick of it. We got sick of it.
+
+[22:06] And we're like, we're gonna buy some, and we're gonna own them, and then we can set the price at whatever we want, which is how we were doing the Black Friday sale. Amazon, first of all, and whatever, this is what it is. Anytime near Black Friday, Amazon's like, nah, I'm just not gonna take that into my warehouse. I'm not gonna do it. So then, then though, we get some into the warehouse so we can do it.
+
+[22:27] Nastasia, like literally, literally FedEx overnights a couple of boxes, and a box is 27. A couple of boxes of Searsols to Amazon. We get it in, and they're like, you're not authorized to sell the Sears All anymore. We're like, what? They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:48] You know, I was like, we both Nastasi and I call were like, what do you mean we're not authorized to sell the Sears all anymore? We used to sell it. We still have it in our listing thing. We you allowed us to replenish it. Why can't we sell it?
+
+[23:00] He's like, well, when you have resellers, sometimes the manufacturer makes it so that you, you know, that not everyone is authorized to sell it. I am the manufacturer! I am the manufacturer! And then the person was like, the person was like, well, that's a different team. All right, well, put me in touch with the team.
+
+[23:18] Oh, that team doesn't have telephones. That team's only by email. I'm like, well, Nastasia already spoke to them, had the same screaming match with them well over a week ago, and your team, your team, the team has not gotten back to us. You're telling me there's not one single human being on God's green earth that can that can realize that they are literally buying them from us. I said, look, I said, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at it.
+
+[23:44] Can you see that we used to sell them? He's like, nope. He's like, Amazon changed your their policy. I'm like, to what? Like, who made this decision?
+
+[23:51] He's like, Oh, I can't see that. And uh literally, I said to the guy, this is on Thanksgiving. I literally said to the guy, so what you're telling me is that you're screwing me. There's nothing you're gonna do about it, and also you personally don't care. And he said, yes.
+
+[24:11] I was like, click. And this, by the way, for as good as these weasels are, which they are very good at dealing with customers, this is how crappily they treat their vendors. I swear to Christ, it's the worst. Uh Stas, what do you think? Yeah, that is the way it is.
+
+[24:30] So, and so then, and then I have to hear this one with her pseudo-martyring, stop texting me about like having to deal with this stuff. And I'm like, you know what? Deal with it. If you don't get the hook. If the tables are turned and you were with your family, I've had it happen many times.
+
+[24:44] Stop. No. My wife is a good idea. Oh, oh, excuse you. It's true.
+
+[24:48] She gets mad at me, and you know what I do? I suck it the hell up because it's our business, and you've done it to me many, many times. When there's an outcome that we And we got the outcome. We got the price down. It's still crappy.
+
+[24:58] By the way, people, our good, our happy our hap Black Friday sale. It was still running it, and you just have to search like a mother to find go on my Twitter account. If you want the $59 Sears all, go on my Twitter account. I link to it. I believe it's it's a linked in my Twitter account, and Nastasi's gonna hook it up in my Instagram and maybe on her Instagram for it.
+
+[25:20] It's on my Instagram. The link go to the go to uh what is it? Lopez. Just Nastasia Lopez. At Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[25:30] Yes. Okay. Uh her Instagram account and go to the link in the bio, and that is the magic route to the 5999 uh Searsol. But such an irritant. Like they're so irritating.
+
+[25:42] So irritating. And then and then I have to hear it from her like I'm a bad guy. Like I'm a bad guy, please. Please. I mean, I am, but not for that reason.
+
+[25:53] Oh my dancing old. I have to go home. I'm the bad guy. You are. You're a bad guy because you could have just dealt with it and not tried to martyr it.
+
+[26:01] You understand that I don't have feelings about whether or not you miss a particular dance or not, and nobody's asking you to go home. I'm the bad guy. I'm glad you finally realized this. My thing. Matt, what?
+
+[26:13] It's a song. Which song? It's called Bad Guy. Is it different from nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man? Yes.
+
+[26:20] Yes. Who sings this one's bigger with the kids these days? Yeah, who sings it? Oh God, what's her name? Billy Eilish.
+
+[26:27] Thank you. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not on my radar. Not on my radar. I mean, like, I know who it is, but not on my radar.
+
+[26:32] Matt, what'd you do for Thanksgiving? I cooked a bunch of food. Yeah. Uh I cooked probably eight people's worth of food for three people. Oh, yeah?
+
+[26:41] Well, that's good. I still have leftovers as well. I cooked 30 people's worth of food for nine. Alright. Well, our ratios are I'm not doing the math.
+
+[26:49] Similar. Did you uh did you make a turkey? No, no, no. Uh salmon. Salmon?
+
+[26:54] Yeah. You're not from the Pacific Northwest. What the heck are you doing? Sam. Uh, don't eat meat.
+
+[26:59] Oh, yeah. Not at all, not even turkey. I mean, no. All right. Another uh Jack Shram had a uh a meatless uh Thanksgiving as well because his parents went uh pescatarian.
+
+[27:11] So he had fish soup. Fish soup. I don't know. I like a turkey. I had a the biggest heritage turkey I have ever seen in my life.
+
+[27:22] The only heritage turkey I ever saw that was bigger was one that Patrick had already uh set aside for someone that was next to it. It was 26 and a half pounds. And for a heritage bird, that is huge. Like most of them were coming in like, you know, like 13, 14, 15 pounds. But uh Patrick Martins, Heritage Foods, fearless leader of our network, in fact.
+
+[27:45] Uh yeah, he hooked me up with a 26 and a half pound uh heritage turkey. Now listen, the way I cooked it, I explained it on the Instagram, but the way I cooked it, every year I do it a little bit differently because I don't think I'm ever gonna make it to the complete level of perfection of the bionic turkey where you rip all the bones out, build a new set of bones that are also heaters, and you pump like butter through it at different temperatures to get everything kind of exactly right, and then flash fry the outside. I'm I'll probably never make it like to that level using any other kind of uh technique. But A, it's a huge pain in the butt. There's Nastasia, what do you enjoy more?
+
+[28:23] Making fun of how long that takes me to do while someone's trying to video it, or do you enjoy when Peter comes in on the bathroom? Oh God, Peter. Yeah. But you still you enjoy making fun of me when I'm slow boning the turkey out. Yeah.
+
+[28:34] Yeah. The easiest way, but doesn't do the presentation that I want. By the way, Peter, speaking of punching bag, you know what Peter did for Thanksgiving? Uh yeah, you told me. Ballotine.
+
+[28:44] He cut he he did it just a tube. Hey, people. It is a superior way, right? And I know French people who do this. But Peter, although he's married to a French person, is not a French person, and I feel that it's not okay to serve a turkey tube on Thanksgiving as an American.
+
+[29:01] What do you think, Stuzz? I think you can do whatever you want. What? Since when? Since when do you believe that anyone can do anything?
+
+[29:10] You are the most judgmental person in the world. That's definitely not true. It totally is. Anyway, it's not official. Also, similarly, spatchcock kind of look like a bird, but they're broken down, but it's kind of superior for cooking.
+
+[29:22] This year I cut out the backbone, and because it was so big, I used a meat saw, and that really made my wife like she was like, Can you not can you not saw? Because the noise of the meat of the saw on the bone, she's like, wow, that's unpleasant. I'm like, well, yeah, hmm. Anyway, so I ripped out most of the bones, the rib cage, left the kind of keel bone in so that the breast would maintain its shape, and I left the thigh and the and the uh leg bone in, took the rest out. The advantage of removing bones is I've said it before, I'll say it again, you can make a delicious gravy well in advance, and you have a lot more gravy.
+
+[29:56] So it's a huge plus. Uh but then this time, uh, what I did differently, I salted it, a little bit of sugar, pepper, herbs. I took, you know, those bags that are meant to vacuum comforters? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, they're not for food.
+
+[30:11] Like, they're for like your sweaters and stuff. I took one of those and stuck it in with a couple of sticks of butter and took my regular vacuum cleaner and just sucked it down with one of these clothing bags, and then like screwed the little cap on it that it comes with that's not watered, and then like duct taped over that, and then I bent it into shape over a cocktail shaker and then put it into the bucket, the cooking bucket, which was in fact a container that used to store comforters, like a big thing. And then I filled just up to the leg level with uh very hot water and cooked it just the legs for a couple of hours before I filled the rest of the bucket up and wrote it out low temperature. Uh then siphoned the water out. Because listen, how many of you have done low temperature cooking with that on big stuff?
+
+[30:55] And then you try to move that big thing to dump the water, or you lift the thing out to try to chill it and you mess it up when it's hot, forget about it. I just put a tube in, siphoned all the water out, and then added ice water, chilled it in the bucket, then uh put it in the fridge overnight, and then my oven was free the next day. It only took me like 40 minutes in the oven to brown the skin, and it was it was great. But next year, I think I'm gonna do my my goal that I've never done is to rip the you know what my least favorite part of turkeys are, Anastasia? Yes.
+
+[31:27] Ripping something out. No. Kind of close. What? I don't know.
+
+[31:31] The tendons in the legs, those ten, those hard tendons in the legs, and then someone's like, uh, can I serve you a piece of the leg meat? And you're like, eh, bit, bit, bit, bit, and then they give you that hard tendon, and then your tooth goes into that hard tendon. Anyway, but they are, and here's where you're correct, very hard to rip out when the stuff's raw. So when you're doing the fully like bionic bird, you can rip out the tendons before you do the cooking, but you tend to lose a lot of meat. But the kind of what I've always wanted to try is to rip the legs out and then confie them, leave the bone in, but confie the legs, then rip the tendons, and then put them back into the skin and cook again.
+
+[32:07] Maybe next year. But anyway, the Heritage Bird tasted great. It's a little rosier, obviously, than a regular bird, but it was it was good. Made my mom stuffing. What kind of stuffing do you like?
+
+[32:16] Do you like stuffing? Oh, not really. Really? What do you grow up to? Stove top.
+
+[32:22] Oh. What kind of I've never had stovetop stuffing. Never. What do you do to stove top stuffing? How do you make it?
+
+[32:28] It comes as like bread cubes, right? Yeah, I don't know what you do to it. Huh. Well, what kind of stuffing did Tarrajo make? A real stuffing with meat in it.
+
+[32:37] I didn't ask. Wow, you are a very curious eater. I'm glad you're in the food business. I'm glad you're my partner in Booker Index. Oh, wait.
+
+[32:44] Yeah, it's being uh facetious. Uh I just don't know you Nastasia hates people thinking or talking about food, which is interesting that she co-hosts a show about cooking food, which is why she only pipes up when we're talking about non-food stuff. She hates Italian people, likes Italy. No, the thing is I love eating. I really love eating.
+
+[33:05] I just don't care about certain aspects. Well, did you know that you have a show where you're supposed to talk about eating and cooking? Alright, just curious, curious whether you knew that. Carl wrote in. Uh, how do you feel about using uh now?
+
+[33:18] I don't understand, Carl. I I gotta say up front, I don't understand what you're talking about. How do you feel about using a black garlic, low heat, long-time technique to roast green coffee? I prefer a coffee that's been roasted the hell out of with gas myself. Now, I looked on the internet, and I was not able to find any references to people that roast that long, right?
+
+[33:43] So when you're talking about black garlic, you're talking like days, like days, days. Like the only thing that I know about with coffee roasting is like the am I gonna do it in like eight minutes or am I gonna do it in like 15 to 20 minutes, right? So, like the the range of long, but like when you bring up something like black garlic, you're making me think that you're talking about like way, way, way, way longer roast than that. And I wasn't able even able to find that on the internet. So you have to send me, and I looked, and I'm not a bad Googler.
+
+[34:18] I'm not a bad Googler. You Googly. Did you like Zoolander? I haven't seen it all. Matt, Zoolander fan?
+
+[34:26] I mean, I remember I have positive feeling associations. You remember you Googolizer? No, I don't oh, well, you it's eulogy, right? Eulogy, yeah. He has to give the eulogy when all of his friends just uh burn themselves to death in the gasoline fight with the Starbucks with the lattes, he's going to get, and then he's like, I have to be the you googalizer.
+
+[34:48] Alright, you've you've made me feel even better about Zoolander. Yeah, Zoolander's great. He's like, he's like, I bet you didn't think I knew what a you googly was. That movie is genius. Oh my god, so funny.
+
+[35:00] This is why I've said this before on the air. The people who hate Zoolander 2 were like, it's so much like Zoolander 1. I'm like, well, didn't you like Zoolander 1? And if the answer is yes, then why wouldn't you just want more of that but different jerks? Anyway.
+
+[35:14] How do you feel about using a black low low heat long time technique? Well, like I said, I wasn't able to find it. What happens the so if we're talking about normal roasting, I'm interested, by the way. I'm interested. Any sort of weird thing, I'm interested.
+
+[35:31] But if you're looking at what you normally consider to be a longer roast profile, um, obviously you're going to be burning out more acid. So you're gonna have a like a lower, a lower acid, a lower acid cup. If you uh the the a nice uh treatment of different kind of roast profiles and achieving them at home uh on the internets is uh friend of the show, Paul Adams. Paul Adams did a uh a Cook's Illustrator, I think it was for Cooks Illustrated on his kind of home roasting uh adventures. And if you have money, right, you know, you gotta get uh Scott, I wonder whether it's pronounced Ray or Rao.
+
+[36:11] Anyway, I never met him, so I don't know. But uh get his book on uh on roasting. But I know a lot of people who are reacting against the I'm not gonna ask Nastasia, Matt, do you drink coffee? I do indeed. Because Nastasi's just gonna be like, I don't care, so I won't make a comment.
+
+[36:27] But like if you notice that uh recently, uh like in the past like five years, that like coffee is becoming more and more about focusing on the highlights and the acid notes because it emphasizes the varietal characteristics of many coffee beans better, right? So you'll notice that even in espresso shots, like maybe eight years, nine years, they've been getting kind of on more on the on the tart side. And I know a lot of people, especially my age and older, who are kind of reacting against that and are like, yo, I don't want it to taste like blueberries. I want that kind of more mellow, uh, you know, I want that, you know, kind of the less acid profile, right? In fact, I had like a very good friend of mine come up and be like, how do I tell the coffee people this is what I like without insulting them?
+
+[37:11] I'm like, hey, you're allowed to like whatever you like. But you know, if you like that, then the longer roasting is gonna kind of uh get rid of more of the acids. And so you go that way. So like that in general, like that's where I think about it. But you're gonna have to be more specific on exactly what you what you want.
+
+[37:29] And you know, maybe someday we were gonna have a coffee person come on, but they they weren't it they weren't in town. You know, maybe if I if I ever meet Scott Ray or get him on, he can come on, because he's really the guy, or we can get Paul to come on talk because I think he met him when he was doing his uh his thing with Jake. If we get people, if we get Paul back on the show, I promise we will do so without allowing him to eat anything. What that listener, listener called him a psychopath, right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:53] He said, What did he say, like chewing psychopath, and then he threatened to murder him or something like that? It was crazy. Look it up. Yeah, look it up. What now?
+
+[38:02] Paul last time or second to last time that Paul was on the show, uh, he specifically made mouth noises. Okay. When we said not to make mouth noises. And a listener wrote in and not only called Paul a psychopath, but fundamentally threatened him, I think, somehow, right? She's looking for it.
+
+[38:24] Wow. Well, she's looking for it. Should we you should we take a break and come back? Uh is that a yeah? Yeah.
+
+[38:31] All right. I have to look up a piece of information for the classic. So okay. Uh yeah. Alright.
+
+[38:37] Back. Nourish and Flourish is a handcrafted ad-free integration of print and multimedia content from around the world with stunning photography and video. Explore emerging trends and nutrition, regenerative agriculture, and travel. Nourish and flourish. Thought-provoking content and innovative links to videos allow you to view the future of food and healthy living.
+
+[39:08] Join us on a journey of discovery from the soil to the stars. Subscribe today at nourish and flourish. We are back. Are we back? Yes, you are now.
+
+[39:19] I barely caught it. Oh yeah. All right. So last week on the radio program, Capri Sun dropped off some Capri Sun, we don't know his real name. Dropped off some more fish that had been uh EKG made.
+
+[39:36] I didn't get a chance to eat it. It's in my freezer still because it was Thanksgiving. But enjoyed the sack sack and the Katsu guys and uh and the kimchi. But also I forgot a couple of weeks ago uh we had uh at the at the what's that called? What's that was at the gala?
+
+[39:54] Uh at the at the gala, uh someone came who's a listener, and uh she actually had written in about the caramel sauce for her wedding, right? And she gave us some that had been bottled according to what and said it was said it worked well. Uh Serena, I believe. And she also dropped off because she had listened to the show. Uh she and her friend work at uh at like an actual they're they're food engineers.
+
+[40:16] Food engineers. Uh they you know, at one of the houses uh or one of the, you know, the big companies between here and Philly. And they had heard that that Nastasi and I had once tried to make Gets Caramel Cream with coconut as like a coconut gets. And Nastasi and I mentally were in the right space, but we I'm gonna go say we effed it up royally. Right?
+
+[40:38] It didn't set. Was it right? Is it didn't set? So she made us some. So you want to try it here?
+
+[40:44] Mm-hmm. Alright. Now Nastasia. Wait. Oh now she said that they that the temperature's a little different, so it's a little more crystal-y than you would normally.
+
+[40:55] This is the sound of the paper, not a mouth noise. Please don't murder me in my sleep. Where's the middle? Take a bite. If if you're gonna try and murder Dave, listeners, please go to existing conditions and not the Roberto's studio.
+
+[41:09] The flavor is good. And the texture of the middle part thing is good, but we need the caramel thing around the outside. This is a good I think this is a good filling. I think it's an excellent thing. It's an excellent filling.
+
+[41:20] We just need more of the we need the bigger thick brown layer around it, but this is an excellent filling. Did she give us the recipe for this one or no? I can't read that small of a writing. For the caramel? For the for the coconut one.
+
+[41:33] Oh. For the cream? Yeah. We got the we got the car, we got the coconut cream. One to two tablespoon coconut oil, one to two tablespoon shortening, one cup powdered sugar, massage into a paste, roll into a log.
+
+[41:45] Whoa. What? What is that? That is Peter screaming. Hold on.
+
+[41:51] I was like, Oh my god. But like for my uh Apple, Apple is like, hey, you know what you want? You want your eye. Oh god. Really?
+
+[42:02] Hold on, watch this. AK, you're on the air right now. I'm on the air? You're on the air because I can't tell my eye my i my iPad to not answer my iPhone. I'll call you in a minute when I'm off the air.
+
+[42:15] That's A.K. Hata, the manager of our bar people. Yeah. And just goes to show how technically incompetent I am. I'll I'll list them as a guest.
+
+[42:22] Yeah. Um, wow. Nastasia's not gonna let me live that down while we're having our pizza. Anyway. Um I lost even where I was.
+
+[42:32] And and it used to be back in the day that your iPhone had a button that you could press that would say shut up, but that you could just be like, no, I don't want to take any calls. And you just click the side, don't you? Yeah, but there's no side on an iPad. That's just volume. No, it's not real.
+
+[42:47] I don't know. You know, now that every all buttons are virtual. Michael Katz writes in. So anyway, thank you for the uh coconut thing. I think we we're well well on our way.
+
+[42:55] In Nastasia Proust. Yeah, thank you. Michael Katz writes in, good morning, Dave and Nastasia. My name is Michael Katz. Well, that's clear because I said your name is Michael Katz.
+
+[43:03] I am currently the coordinator, main teacher, lecturer, professional cooking course uh at Israel's largest cooking academy, the Dan Gourmet Culinary School. That is the name, the Dan Gourmet Culinary School. I wonder whether it's a guy named Dan or does Dan have a meaning. Probably Dan has a meaning. Yeah.
+
+[43:19] I've been listening to your show for some time and and I'm enjoying it. Well, that makes just you because Nastasi and I don't enjoy listening to it. You ever had to listen to our show? Only when it's funny and people tell me it's funny. And then you go and listen to it?
+
+[43:31] Yeah. But I don't listen when it's like like today. Wow, what a sloppy production to that. Oh my god. Dang.
+
+[43:40] Do you listen to it, Matt? What do you do sometimes? Really? I mean, you know, just to see if uh I like I was showing somebody in a car, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
+
+[43:49] When we had to do the um, when we had to do the like submit to the whatever it's called, uh I went and re-listened, or if someone says I was particularly mean to somebody or harsh, right? I'll re-listen to it and I'll be like, damn, that was. Which one did we submit? I don't know. We didn't do it.
+
+[44:07] Or who what was people's favorite? Do you remember? I don't know. But I re-listened to the Clara Wedding thing, and that was kind of rough, but I didn't re-listen to the recent one we just had with her on. Is she forgiving us yet?
+
+[44:20] She's staying with me. Well, you should invite her on, like in the city. I had I wanted her to come in today, and she said I'm busy. I know she's not because she's on my couch right now. Who was it?
+
+[44:31] Who was it that was here that was supposed to side with her but didn't? Rebecca. Yeah, Rebecca was here and was like, oh no, that's fancy face cream. I'm not gonna and then Claire said, I expect that from you, but not Rebecca. I mean, please.
+
+[44:43] Uh I'm organizing a conference in Tel Aviv that invites all the cooking teachers in Israel. The main topic of the conference is a dialogue between the industry and culinary teachers in Israel about uh what the what does the industry want us teachers to teach, and vice versa, what do we believe is the right thing to teach in today's cooking school agenda? My question is if you were in front of the audience, uh would uh would you think the cooking teachers of today should or should not teach? What do you think the teachers today should or should not teach? Should you stick to the classics?
+
+[45:13] Are the classics still relevant? And if so, how do you define what the classics are that still need to be taught? It's a bit of an abstract question, but if you have some input, that would be great. Well, interestingly, well, or maybe not. This was uh one of the main things that I had to contend with at the French Culinary Institute because I was the director of culinary technology, so my job was all new stuff, but I got to see the um curriculum there that was based, it well, not based, it was almost it was entirely the classics.
+
+[45:44] When Nils Norin came on, he did some updating to it, but still taught all of the classic uh things. And I think that uh I mean the part of the problem is is if you're going to like the French Culinary Institute, well, hell, it makes sense we're teaching you French cooking because it's got the word French right in the name, right? And then when they changed it to the International Culinary Center, like it still made sense because the story is is that the brigade system, which is you can fundamentally see as a kind of French restaurant style of cooking, is you know, that works no matter what kind of cooking you're eventually going to do. Now, and and to be honest, there are some kinds of techniques that you know, uh, if you learn to break down a chicken one way, you can learn to break it down another way. And so it, you know, it doesn't I think really matter which kind of culture's way of breaking down because there's there's for every human being on earth there's a different way to break down a chicken, right?
+
+[46:37] But I think it's really good to have a school teach a way to break down a chicken, then everyone becomes proficient at that because you know, part of the thing about going to a cooking school as opposed to cooking at home is that you've never at home uh probably broken down 30 chickens in a row. So you never get into kind of the muscle memory or you don't really understand how to process things the way a restaurant would process. That's the most important thing in the in the kind of in the cooking school, right? Is learning how to process things like a restaurant would process them. Um and you know, fitting into the kitchen system in a restaurant.
+
+[47:14] I mean, it's not really teaching them, you know, how to make the most I mean it you should teach them how to make the most delicious chicken, but I'm saying, like more importantly, is teaching them so that they can fit into a kitchen into a production schedule and break the stuff out, how to break down veg, how to, you know, in a fast, clean, neat way, all the different kinds, certain kind of cooking techniques, how they work. Um, and so I think that you know, even in within the rubric of the French Culinary Institute, like teaching those old classics really had a kind of place. And also a lot of these recipes and concepts and techniques have been around a long time and are time tested, and people enjoy them. So having them under your belt, I think is very useful as a cook, um, you know, no matter what you're gonna do later. And I think there are people, and I still think this is a problem, people jump to new techniques kind of too quickly, and they kind of poo-poo all the old techniques, and I think this is a fundamental mistake.
+
+[48:12] I think everybody, I think a well-rounded cook can should know all of it. Well, now you don't need to know new techniques to cook well because obviously people ate well in the old days, right? But I think using the knowing the new techniques and definitely knowing the kind of science, the why behind what you're doing, no matter which techniques you use. I mean, and that's the other mistake. People think that just because you think about kind of why things cook the way they do, and you think about the kind of you know, for lack of a better term, the science behind the cooking, that all of a sudden you have to do modern style cooking.
+
+[48:42] And that's not the case at all. I think it make you know, I think a confie is better if you think about why you're doing what you're doing, even if you use a completely traditional technique. And by the way, traditional technique confí is good, right? Everyone likes it. Do you like it?
+
+[48:56] Mm-hmm. Yeah, everyone likes it, I think. I think everyone likes it. Maybe not mad if he doesn't eat meat. Um but uh so I think that like learning the classics and teaching people a set of skills that's not necessarily based in what is here and now, I think is very useful and very good.
+
+[49:13] Now then the problem is, you know, nowadays, how do you choose kind of what that list is? And I think it depends on the s your particular school, what particular culture the people are coming from, and kind of what you what you want to teach them. Everyone in cooking school should know how to do all of the basic cooking techniques on a variety of things. You should teach them like how to do the miracle of moisture management on meats, fish, and veg in various cooking environments. And then if you want to hang them on a particular culture, I guess that's your prerogative.
+
+[49:44] Or if you want to go multicultural, that's your prerogative too. I think the issue is that when you take cooking instructors outside of their really their core zone, the nice thing about the FCI, French Culinary Institute, was that the majority of chefs work very classically French trained, and so the stuff they were teaching was in their bones and in their blood. And there is nothing quite like having someone teach something to people when it's like they're swimming through water. They're not like emulating something, they're not like a fish out of water trying to trying to teach something or teaching teaching some cooking technique or some recipe that you know they don't know what they're talking about. And so I think you have to like kind of look at your staff and look at kind of who you know who you're who your teachers are, and you want the people who are teaching to really be authorities on that, because I think at the end of the day, like having the authority as a teacher and really understanding every in and out of the thing that you're teaching provides the best learning experience for a student no matter what they're no matter what they're learning.
+
+[50:47] And so, you know, if like the other caller, if lotkas are in your blood, teach latkas, but don't teach latkas to someone if lotka's not in your blood, because how the hell didn't you know whether you've done a good job? You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Uh all right. So let me see, we get we have time for the last question.
+
+[51:02] And then it's 105. And then classics, last time classics. You tell me, Stash. I don't think we have time for the last question, but I know that you're gonna say it's only gonna take me one minute. So I'll do it in one minute.
+
+[51:16] Okay. All right, timing is starting now. Jason in Milwaukee. Nastasia, uh, it's one of the few towns that you actually enjoyed visiting with me. You like in Milwaukee.
+
+[51:25] You're on a minute still. See how mean she is, even to Milwaukee, even though she loved that bar. What was the name of that bar? Apologies in advance to Jason. Yep.
+
+[51:34] Anyway. Well, my wife gets two city hams as a holiday gift for uh from her employer. Neither of us are fans of the city ham, but yet she insists we use it for our family Christmas dinners. Uh I have not found any interesting recipes from searching online, so I'm hoping that you can provide a creative alternative to the normal, cook it a while and glaze it. Well, you don't have to cook it, you just have to heat it and glaze it.
+
+[51:53] Uh traditional approach, I've got a smoker and a circulator along with uh normal kitchen appliances, Jason and Milwaukee. Well, circulator is a good way to heat a city ham without uh overcooking it if you do want to reheat it. And you can also reheat slices of it uh in vac bags uh very well without losing too much moisture. But I'm gonna go ahead and say that you should freeze one of them because you're not gonna eat it all right away. And have you considered, if you're in Milwaukee, I'm surprised that you haven't.
+
+[52:20] I guess you have to go a little further out. The ham ball or the ham meat loaf, where you're grinding the city ham into ground ham, and then you're mixing it typically 50-50 with fresh pork or even with other meats like chicken or even like uh beef or or whatever. But so you can either make meat loafs that way, ham meatloaves, which are good, or ham meatballs and ham balls not only sound fun to say ham balls but uh they're pretty tasty too now you're not gonna go through a lot of it so you're still gonna have to freeze some but then you would uh have at least used some of this ham at the Christmas dinner so that's my solution how close I don't know that oh I didn't I mean you know you chumps it's two it's been two because I said 105 is 107 now but you don't know when it would change from 105 to 106. When I said it's 105? No she makes it up.
+
+[53:14] Nastasia loves to make stuff up. We can go back and look at it later. Oh yeah I'll I'll tell you. Yeah yeah okay yeah I want it down to the Nastasia when we were doing the uh the thing learned what the clap is for when you're shooting videos so she should have done a clap beforehand so you could just go look for the spike on the on the thing it wouldn't have to do any wouldn't have to do any uh what's it called you guys thought they were just doing that for fun a video? I Nastasia kept on Nastasi kept we were in front of a sink so Nastasi kept putting her hands like down below the sink and clapping.
+
+[53:45] I'm like yo how the hell am I supposed to sink your hand clap if you were better at it you would have just done it Dave. She wanted to do it I wanted to do it. She wanted to do oh you mean just sink it anyway. Yeah sink it anyway make it work. Sing it make it work okay classics just sit there frame by frame you jerk.
+
+[54:03] 108 Classics in the field yeah so today's classics in the field comes from the fact that many and we're about ham. We're still talking about ham. So it makes sense that I dealt with uh the question from Milwaukee. Uh many many years ago I did an exhibition on hams uh when I was originally at the idea for the Museum of Food and Drink, back when it was called the American Museum of Food. And I went to the New York Public Library and I took ever I went to their main research branch and I look at every book, every single book, I read every single book that has it had to do with ham.
+
+[54:39] And I found a book, which at the time the internet of buying books was still young and there were no print-on-demand books. So all of the books that you were able to buy on the internet at the time, which was BookFinder, which is still there, were like the first quality books. And the best book in the entire New York public library on the subject uh, which is a great library, people, on the subject of ham, is a book called Bacon and Hams, which was published in 1917 by a guy named George Nichols. Now, uh this book, I'll just tell you in advance, like uh the Cooking Issues blog, you can still find it's linked to on Wikipedia. So if you look up bacon and hams and go to Wikipedia, you can still uh look up my blog post because Wikipedia used it as the main source for the article.
+
+[55:25] But the thing that is most cool about this, which I'll talk about in in a minute, is not available anymore. My old flash animation from you know 2009 or whatever it was is no longer on the internet. So I'm gonna try to resurrect it somehow and maybe put it on my Instagram so you guys can see it. But this book was written by a guy named George Nichols, who was a he was a seller of kind of bacon and hams, bacon written large. So bacon for him was an entire half side of a pig, a flitch as they call it, uh cured.
+
+[55:56] He was English. And this book, most technical books at the time, or books that were not written for regular consumers, uh were terrible, so boring. Uh this guy loved his subject so much, he imbues it with such kind of like a verve and a zaz that you can't help but reading it all the way through. I'll give you some examples of some awesome stuff that's in this book. So the frontist piece of the book is back in the day, in like the you know, late 18, early 1900s, there was a huge set of uh anatomical books.
+
+[56:30] And in those anatomical books, to try to teach you anatomy, you would open it, and then uh you would have pieces of the anatomy that would fold in and out. So you would you there's a picture of a pig, and then that pig though is a piece of paper that's glued, and then kind of like a pop-up book, you fold the pig over, and when you fold the pig over, you can see the muscles that are on the pig. And then you fold the muscles up and you can see the interior organs. And then have you seen this, Doz? Yep.
+
+[56:59] And then you see them on the blog post. And when you buy this book on the internet, it's super rare uh to find it with the front piece still good. So, yeah, so you have the main pig, the skeleton, the circulatory system, all annotated, which is very much in the style of the old anatomical books of the day, down to the intestine, small and large, the lungs, the heart, just a marvel. So I'm gonna try to put this back up on the internet so you can um see it. The other famous picture from it uh is a picture of the author as a side of bacon for Halloween.
+
+[57:34] What do you think for Halloween? For some party, some costume ball that he went to, which is just amazing. Then he goes through kind of a history of Hams, including a history of the British pig, which is very short but still quite good. It's no you at the pig, which is another classic pig book. Uh, but it's it's very good.
+
+[57:50] But then from an American standpoint, what's interesting is that very soon after The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. By the way, Upton Sinclair's the jungle, uh, well known for the book that kind of grossed everyone out. Upton Sinclair thought he was writing a book that was gonna galvanize people for the worker uh against kind of capital, make them treat the workers and these plants better, but instead everyone was like, ew, that's just so grouse, talking about the meat packing industry in Chicago. And so the only result it had wasn't shifting things towards a you know more worker-friendly or more communistic vein, but really was just to try to enact some laws that kind of made food less gross, less rat hair, less roaches ground into your sausage, right? So anyway, Nichols goes and visits only a couple of years after this, but has a very different set of eyeballs and has an amazing set of pictures, some of which, and by the way, you can view the book with the exception of the fold-out front piece, frontest piece, which it only one thing is available.
+
+[58:46] You can go to Hath Eye Trust. It's available to search online, so you can look at the pictures. There's an amazing set of pictures from the stockyards and the slaughtering plants in Chicago at the time, which are unparalleled. You would never get to see images like this of a modern plant, including what they call the wheel of fortune, which is a giant wheel that when they when they kill the pigs and they gambled them on the back, it would lift the pigs up onto the conveyor rail system. Just amazing, amazing pictures.
+
+[59:15] And then, as a bonus, as an extra bonus, there are a bunch of hand drawings of how to debone and uh take the bones out of different ham cuts. And these also are masterpieces in their own right. This book is something that everybody should at least look at. And if you can find a collectible copy with the frontest piece, go look for it. Bacon and Hams, today's classic in the field, cooking issues.
+
+[59:49] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org.
+
+[1:00:04] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:00:25] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. This episode is brought to you by Wisconsin Cheese.
+
+[0:26] Wisconsin cheesemakers produce over 600 varieties, types, and styles of cheese. That's twice as much as any other state. Learn more about Wisconsin's cheesemaking history at WisconsinCheese.com. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever I get here.
+
+[0:53] Tell about one from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good?
+
+[1:00] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Got Matt in the booth.
+
+[1:03] How are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. Either of you two uh eating anything uh good past week? Oh boy.
+
+[1:10] Uh no. Not that comes to mind right now. I just went to uh should I call him by his real name? Fabian von Howski and uh Jeremiah's new place, Peoples, not Mr. Peebles from the Gill of Gorilla, which is I call last night's good.
+
+[1:25] It's good, nice. Yeah. Now we got a good business going there. It's in the uh Essex Street Market in the market line downstairs. Yeah.
+
+[1:32] You guys went nowhere. And no, it's fantastic. Don't you go out like three, four times a week? Yeah. I haven't gone there.
+
+[1:37] Anywhere? You guys know where good? Oh. No. Not that I want to talk about now.
+
+[1:42] Wow, all right. All right then. Great. Uh, calling your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-288.
+
+[1:50] What? Wait. 718497-2128. Right, Matt? Ding-ding-ding.
+
+[1:54] I don't know. Uh, so next week, I believe, Nastasi, we have on the show. Is this correct? This time they're coming in. The Oura King New Zealand salmon.
+
+[2:05] Booker, my son Booker's favorite salmon. Do you think I should try to get him off of school so he can come in and talk to the Oracing people directly? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah?
+
+[2:14] Are they gonna get, by the way, uh, if the if we still have the listener who turned the Booker saying, shut up, Dad, into a ringtone, Booker is lobbying to have me get rid of that as my ringtone. Because he's like, it makes me sound mean, Dad. And then but then if I if I say anything about it, he'll just still say, Shut up, Dad. You know what I mean? But anyway, he wants me to change the ringtone, but I still appreciate that someone made that for me.
+
+[2:41] Anyway, I'll try to maybe get Booker off so he can come in. Are they bringing salmon in? It's here, right, Matt? No, no, no. It's coming, yeah.
+
+[2:48] Next yes, and it will be here. Is it gonna be cured, raw, cooked? What are they bringing? Do you know? I have no idea.
+
+[2:55] I mean, am I expected to bring a Searzole and cook it live here? I mean, what? I don't know. Alright. Uh speaking of, we I don't know about the Sears All.
+
+[3:06] I really don't. Amazon's really hosing us. Are our are our Sears alls allowed to be sold yet? The ones that we own yet? Super.
+
+[3:13] By the way, people, everyone knows how much uh Nastasi and I love the Amazon, so I won't belabor it. But we're since we control still the cocktail cube and the spinzall, the sale is still going on the spinzole and the cocktail cube. I'm just gonna go ahead and say for 999, a cocktail cube was a good gift for the bot tender in your life because then they could just use it, put it in their bucket, and when they go to somebody's house and that person has crappy ice, they're still gonna get a good texture, shake and drink. Nastasi, right, right? So our Searzol order was late, right?
+
+[3:44] Because of a Chinese holiday. And so they were like, it's late. We're gonna dock you. They meaning Amazon. Yeah, and they said, give us the reason it was late.
+
+[3:52] So I gave them a reason why it was late. And they said, Well, that's not true because Chinese holiday was from this date to this date. Please dive deeper into your delay reason and let us know. What? How to improve your future shipments.
+
+[4:06] Oh my god. Dive deeper into your delay reason. Dive deeper into my delay reason. Alright, well, I'm pretty sure Nastasia is. First of all, Amazon, Amazon done took the water out of that pool.
+
+[4:18] So as soon as you dive in, your face hits the concrete. There's nowhere deeper you can go without it without a drilling rig. I mean, jerks. Anyway. Unbelievable.
+
+[4:27] Biff writes in regarding vegan creamer. I want to go vegan with my coffee cream. Uh, but all the options seem subpar. Uh it seems like separation and flocculating, or flocculation, are issues with most of the milks. Uh, is there any method or doping that resolves this or any brands that have cracked it?
+
+[4:45] Thanks, Biff from Philadelphia. Well, okay. Uh Nastasia, you got your vegan face? Mm-hmm. She can't even that's just your normal face now.
+
+[4:53] You just walk around in a perpetual vegan? She just has her normal face on it. I'm so depressed. I already read that question at home, so I made it when I so you can't be bothered to make it now. Is the vegan face the face she makes when she has served something vegan?
+
+[5:06] No, like, okay, like let's say, let's say someone shows up. So the for those of you that have never been to Roberta's, that the radio is in the back in a container, and there's like a large window, and then there's this kind of atrium that they kind of fake put a roof over. I don't know how the heck it's allowed by the department of Uh Buildings or whatever, but we we don't talk about that. Yeah, and then, but like, so we just sit here at this picture window and we see people come in and out. So the vegan face is the same face, Matt, so you would know that she makes when she sees like an inappropriate midriff.
+
+[5:40] Uh-huh. It's the same face. Or, and by the way, that's not a gendered thing. I mean, you have male, female midriff. I mean, yeah, most of the yeah, yeah, yes.
+
+[5:49] Yeah. Or like when she sees like a giant like wad of pit hair, something like this. They're putting your pizza down. Which is a it's a new it's a Brooklyn thing, people. It's a Brooklyn thing.
+
+[6:01] This is not meant to be, you know, pejorative, I don't think. Anyway, that's the same face she makes. It's the same, same relative face. Yeah. Uh anyway.
+
+[6:12] Uh so Biff, I don't have any actual knowledge with non-dairy creamer. By the way, if you say just say non-dairy creamer to somebody, and you're talking about the stuff that was developed, oh, I don't know, in the 50s or whenever, that stuff isn't necessarily vegan. It just doesn't have milk in it, right? So most of those non-dairy creamers have casein in it that is in fact derived from milk. It's just not actually milk.
+
+[6:43] And I don't know how they get away with calling it non-dairy creamer, but a lot of vegans uh don't trust that non like labels like non-dairy cream are like coffee mate, creamora, which I don't even know if they make anymore. There's the liquid ones and the powdered ones. So while I was researching this, though, by the way, sorry I'm gonna go off on a little bit of a tangent here. Uh I had forgotten, I did it one time know this, that it is possible to use non-dairy creamer uh to make giant fireballs. So the next time Nastasi, you want to make these at uh at Stanford?
+
+[7:16] No. Why not? You don't like a giant fireball? I thought you loved Pyrotechnics. This strikes me as possibly the best use of non-dairy cream.
+
+[7:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get any size can you want, right? All the way from a small can up to, and there's a website, I wish I had written it down, that gives you number of ounces of pyrodex, like black powder to use for you know, per square, you know, per diameter of can. So you punch a hole in the bottom of the can, you put a fuse, long fuse, into the bottom of the can, you pour the pour the black powder in a line, then you then you take, and you know how like when you're cooking uh, you know what are the old school cooking methods for uh veg uh or even some braises is you cut like a you cut a you fold up, you fold a parchment paper into like uh in into like a pot into like a wedge shape, and then you cut a circle and then a little thing so you can stick it into the pan so that it can gently cover, but like not have a pan way up top way up high. Are you familiar with this technique?
+
+[8:12] Absolutely not. Okay, well, anyway, it's a technique. Uh for a lot of times cooking veg. Now, but instead of cutting a hole in the middle, right? Uh you just cut a circle out of something thin, like tissue claw tissue paper or something like this, stick it on top of the black powder, and then and you want to do this in the place where you're gonna light it because you don't want the stuff to get compacted, and God forbid you don't want to create an electrostatic spark or anything like this that sets off the uh the black powder.
+
+[8:39] But you just start dumping like non-dairy creamer or like uh milk replacer from like a feedlot store, even flour or confectioner sugar on top, like a layer of it on like a fairly you know a decent layer. You fill up the can like you know, half full or something like this, uh and then you light the fuse and you run. And what happens is uh you familiar with grain silo explosions, Nastasia? Yeah, Matt? Uh yes, I am.
+
+[9:08] Yeah, okay. So, like uh flour, grain like these places that deal with dust in big containers really have to worry about explosions. And on the internet, you can see flour explosions. People will make these anyway. So, what happens is the black powder injects the thing instantly into a dust cloud and simultaneously ignites it.
+
+[9:26] So, like a five-gallon bucket like from Home Depot set up this way can make a fireball that's like 70 feet tall. I've always wanted to see this while also not wanting to see this. Oh, I totally want to see this, but the reason it's germane to this topic is that in the biz, the website I was reading this morning, because it was originally done with cremora, non-dairy creamer powder, which isn't even, I don't think available anymore. The entire genre of like uh creamer or other powder-based fireballs are referred to just as creamoras. Like that?
+
+[10:00] Anyway, I thought that was interesting information. Nastasia, not so much, which is weird because usually she loves pyrotechnics. I don't know what it is. Yeah, what is it about it? You don't like but what you love pyrotechnics?
+
+[10:12] How come you're not excited by the cremora? I don't know. Seasonal affected, uh, whatever. I don't know. Yeah, it's weird though, because usually any kind of explosion you're in.
+
+[10:22] Yeah. All right, next week in the studio, we uh you can't you can't exp you can't explain why you're not uh anyway. So uh other than blowing it up, because I have honestly never consumed in my life a non-dairy creamer, I can't really state whether one is good or better than another. And I also noticed looking at websites on this, I looked at other people's reviews of this, that um person's favorite brand is another person's yuck brand. So I think you really have to kind of look at them.
+
+[10:57] That said, I did what I recommend anyone do this, by the way. So this is gonna become all of a sudden this is gonna become a uh a pseudo-answer that is applicable only to Biff and the people who are interested in non-dairy creamers, to anyone who is trying to figure out anything about any kind of commercial food. If somebody does something even remotely similar to what you want, the good news is that the ingredients are very clearly listed, and the ingredients are typically always available on the internet. So I just went to three people who had good reviews uh by you know people who consume non-dairy creamer and looked at the looked at the ingredients and then looked at why people liked certain ones versus other ones. So they could do this on their own?
+
+[11:45] Yeah, but then we'd be out of a job. Not that we're paid. But the uh here's the thing. So uh I believe it's Kitchen, their favorite brand is Ripple, right? And not Ripple, the like 20-something percent 1970s like out like sweet alcohol product that uh Fred Sanford from Sanford and Sun enjoyed.
+
+[12:07] Uh but Ripple, the non-dairy brand founded by one person and the other person who founded Method. Do you buy those soaps, Method? No. Anyway. Uh but you're familiar with it.
+
+[12:18] Okay. Uh so they make an uh a half and half replacer that, and here are the ingredients water, uh, sunflower oil, and then ripple tea. Rippletine is their trademarked uh pea protein, right? Uh, and then less than 1% of lecithin, uh sunflower lecithin, uh, disodium phosphate, dipotassium phosphates, uh natural flavor, whatever the hell that is, and gel-an gum. Now, you get the things you want to pay attention to are the pea protein.
+
+[12:51] The pea protein is in there to um to substitute for the milk proteins that would otherwise be in there. The sunflower oil is there to substitute for the oil, right? The butter fat that would be in milk. Um the lecithin is there to help bind it. The phosphates are probably also there to keep things from from breaking in the same way that they are in um in uh imitate not imitate imitation cheese and also processed cheese.
+
+[13:20] If you look up, look up melting salts. They're probably there for a similar reason. And gel-an gum. Gelan gum is the one you really want to uh look at there because it shows up again, as does pea protein. If you look at so delicious oat milk, they have filtered water, whole oat flour, sunflower oil, ding ding, again, pea protein, ding ding, again, potassium citrate, which is also another um uh, you know, what's it called?
+
+[13:46] Melting salt that you would use in cheese. Sodium bicarbonate, why that's there, I don't know. Sea salt, natural flavor, and get ready for it, people, gelan gum. Almond breeze contains almond milk, cane sugar, almond oil, sunflower lecithin, there you are again. Dipotassium phosphate, natural flavors, pea protein, sea salt.
+
+[14:06] These guys also have guar gum, probably to stop the almond uh from uh separating on itself, and gelan gum, right? So guar gum plus gel an gum. It's actually guar plus gel-in' is an interesting system. I've done some research, but I don't have time to talk about it now. So, anyway, the key point here is they're all lightly stabilizing this stuff with gel-an, which is stable in heat or in cold.
+
+[14:27] They're adding either a citrate or a phosphate, which is probably also helping it from breaking, right? And then uh these guys, these three people are all using uh pea protein. Then the question is do they also have uh oat in it? Now remember, oat milk, the people who are doing it professionally make it a way that you can't. They use proprietary enzyme systems that break down the oat to help it be more milky, um, or or almond milk.
+
+[14:52] So I would say that I would look at those things as part of the stabilizing. By the way, if you want to just buy ripple, the people who make ripple make it to be like half and half. I think the people that hate it hate it because it doesn't have a lot of extra sugar, so it doesn't actually sweeten well at creams, and so they thought it was a one-to-one replacer for their other non-dairy liquid creamers, which are all fairly sweet. If you like it on the sweet side, take one of the ones that already has some sugar added, like almond breeze or so delicious, or one of these things. Although I don't know that so delicious necessarily has sugar.
+
+[15:21] Anyway, look into it. Elizabeth writes in about pig milk. How was it? We haven't talked about pig milk in a long time. How long ago was pig milk?
+
+[15:30] I don't know. Remember? I don't think I've ever heard you say the words pig milk. You think it was back in Jackie Molecules days? Maybe.
+
+[15:36] Uh on a previous episode, the question of pig milk came up, specifically why, and I've thought about this a lot, by the way, so I have my own reasons. We'll see what you say. Uh, specifically why cow, sheep, and goat milk uh are things, but not pig milk. I've never heard anything else on the show about it, but I might have missed it. Over Thanksgiving, I thought to ask my mom, who grew up on a dairy farm in central Kentucky, and also raised some pigs.
+
+[15:56] Her thoughts. It would just take too long to milk a pig. Cows, sheep, and goats, sheep. And goats typically only have one to three babies at a time, and a few teets that produce plenty of milk. Pigs have whole litters of ten or so, and many teets that each produce a small amount of milk.
+
+[16:12] It'd take all day to milk a sow. Hope that provides some closure on the pig milk issue. It does. Actually, it's interesting. I never thought about the fact that because they're smaller and there's so many of them, they'd be much harder to do, versus ones that are like concentrated in more udder-like situation.
+
+[16:27] I mean, that's obviously true. Uh I had always thought that it was just because they were raising so many, you know, pigs, and those pigs had to be raised through they, you know, all the way through. They weren't just like calfing and killing for veal or something, and then like raising solely dairy pigs, and that's why. But I like the I like the milking a sow it take all day route. But that said, if anyone out there wants to milk a sow and make us some pig milk cheese, Nastasia is first in line to eat the pig milk cheese, right, Sus?
+
+[16:57] Pig milk. You're not gonna eat pig milk cheese? If someone sent you pig milk cheese, you wouldn't eat it. I mean you would make me, so yes. But you wouldn't want to?
+
+[17:04] No, not really. What about you, mad pig milk cheese? Oh, you don't eat you eat cheese. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[17:10] Pig milk cheese. I think a lot of people would want to try pig milk cheese once. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Anyway.
+
+[17:16] Not that I want you to like, you know, kill the litter of pigs by not allowing them to have their, you know, mother's milk, but anyway. Devin writes in about the burger tender. For those of you that uh don't remember, the burger tender is the uh device, it's the steam chest that the Connecticut people use to make steamed cheeseburgers, which is only a thing in Connecticut. Please don't say that the people who put a lid over their pans when they're cooking burgers are making steamed cheeseburgers. That is not the same thing, and that only shows that you have never been to Connecticut and had a steamed cheeseburger, alright?
+
+[17:55] It's just what it means. If you're like, but I put a lid over my pin and it steams the burger and the cheese. Not freaking the same, all right? It's just not. I'm not saying that it doesn't have some steam quality, it doesn't add some steaminess to your burger, but you have not yet had a steamed cheeseburger.
+
+[18:12] Now, I've also said that I am not a gigundous fan of Do you ever go with me to that place, Taz? No. I'm not not a gigundous fan of the steamed burger itself, although I like it as a thing that exists. I'm glad that it exists, not necessarily that I want to ha have it. But the steamed cheese is amazing.
+
+[18:30] But anyway, the burger tender spelled B-U-R-G-R-T-N-D, and I believe another apostrophe R, two word, burger tender, is the steam chest that you make the Connecticut style cheese steamed cheeseburgers in. Uh now, uh Devin writes in regarding this. What is the best way to replicate the burger tender experience? Not sure if there is some special steaming mojo with that device. Would a pot with a steamer basket plus mini loaf pan work for just wanting to experience the squeak?
+
+[19:02] Now you only get the squeak, Devin, on the uh president brand. Uh oh my god, the name of it just went out of my head. Of the cheese. Just went out of my head. President Brand, it's their fake uh Swiss.
+
+[19:14] It's their fake Swiss, what's it called? President Brand, it'll come to me. Uh, but but even if you don't get that squeaky one, any of the cheeses is good. And I'll I'll give you some more information on steaming anyway. So, yeah, if you don't want to spend the $350 on on that, right?
+
+[19:30] You can, in fact, from them just by the trays. And three steaming trays, which do work in a basket, it's not quite as good because you tend to get more drip on it unless your steamer is designed well to not have a lot of drip down from the roof of the steamer into the things. But you can design it so it doesn't happen. But the the trays, uh, you can get three trays for 23.90 from the burger tender website, which is B-U-R-G-R-T-N-D-R dot com. And don't try to search for it.
+
+[19:59] It's impossible to search for it. You just have to go to the website, and they're only sold from this place in Connecticut. But before I got them, I did, in fact, experiment, and you could experiment as well, just with aluminum foil cups that I've made. I will give you the exact dimensions of a proper burger tender tray. It is first of all, the real ones are made of Ultem plastic, which are nice.
+
+[20:21] They used to be made of steel, I think. And they switched to Ultem, which is nice. It's a high-temp, clear uh sanitary plastic because it doesn't burn your hands when you pick it up because it doesn't really conduct heat very well. Uh they are 71 millimeters by 98 millimeters by 25 millimeters deep on the inside. Uh that's at the top, so they're slightly, they're slightly have a slight draft, so it's slightly smaller at the bottom.
+
+[20:44] That's about 2.8 inches by about 3.85 inches by about one inch. The nice ones have a handle. Uh for cheese, uh, I recommend a two-ounce block. And what you want to do is steam the stuff out for like 10 minutes, uh, at least 10 minutes. If you're doing a two-ounce, like two-ounce block of like mild cheddar, you do it two, let it steam for like 10 minutes until it totally melts out.
+
+[21:07] First spray, like make your trays out of aluminum foil, spray the inside with Pam, then put the cheese in, steam it out, uh let it steam, like I say, 10 minutes or until it totally levels out. If you use the uh the fake Emanthaler from Presidente, the the the super the super squeak guy, it's never madrigal. Madrigal, there you go. It's never gonna melt. It's never gonna melt.
+
+[21:29] So, but then what you do is is is that with the madrigal you can almost use it right away, but with something that's completely melted out, pull it, let it rest for anywhere between 30 seconds to a minute and a half until when you touch it with the top of your finger, it it just goes back to dough instead of like liquid. Then quickly dump the little bit of like oily steam water that's on in the bat in the thing out and then invert and it should come out as kind of one kind of piece. Now, if you have a hard thing, it's easier to get a spatula in to pop it out because the aluminum foil obviously is gonna crinkle up, but there you go. Yeah, you can give it a shot. That's what I did when I first started.
+
+[22:06] But the containers are nice. Robert from the chat, in addition to throwing out the cheese name, claims that Ted's steamed cheeseburgers would be much better with a better roll. That's a roll. I believe we discussed this at one point, but they use uh it's been a while since I've been there, but like a Kaiser style roll, which are rather dry and rather bready. Yeah, like you know, like choose the standard roll of your choice.
+
+[22:31] By the way, since Thanksgiving, Dax has gotten on a brioche kick, and he just goes to the store now and buys brioche on his own, and he doesn't want it toasted, he just wants for like all he started with all the turkey sandwiches, all his turkey sandwiches were on untoasted brioche, and Jen, my wife Jen, thought that he wasn't eating it, so she started eating his brioche. I'm like, Jen, what are you doing? That's Dax's brioche. He's like, Well, he's not even eating it. I'm like, no, he goes like every day to buy more brioche because he's eating so much brioche.
+
+[22:58] And remember, in my family, because Dax saw the word when he was very young and didn't know what it was, it's called Briocci in my house. Cause he was like, What is this brioche? I'm like, it's pronounced Brioche. Or it was. In my house, it's it's just Briacci.
+
+[23:21] This episode is brought to you by Wisconsin Cheese. Wisconsin has storied cheese history that begins with Swiss, German, and Italian settlers in the 1800s and continues today with non-stop innovation and award-winning artisanship. Wisconsin was the first state to establish cheese grade standards, and the first to require that every cheese plant be overseen by a licensed cheesemaker. It is the only place outside of Europe where one can pursue an elite master cheesemaker certification. All of this helps Wisconsin cheese win more national and international cheese awards than any other state or country.
+
+[23:59] Take, for example, Decatur Swiss Cheese Co-op, who have made cheese since the 1940s. Steve Stettler is a Wisconsin master cheesemaker who developed several new cheeses for the co-op, including a European-style Havarti, a Swiss lace cheese called Stettler Swiss, and a Colby Swiss marble cheese. His cheeses have won awards at the Wisconsin State Fair and the World Championship Cheese Contest. To learn more about Wisconsin's award-winning cheesemakers, visit WisconsinCheese.com. Florian wrote in from Austria.
+
+[24:33] Nice to hear from somewhere in Austria. And by the way, there's someone else who came uh came up with this a couple of weeks ago. Phil Bravo was on the show and he was talking about we were talking about what a crappy instrument the recorder was, and he was talking about making instruments out of carrots, right? Wasn't that what he's talking about? So Florian wrote in and said, I've hoped in the I hope I got the right email.
+
+[24:54] You did, because here I am talking about you. Uh in the last week's episode, you discussed uh with Phil Bravo how to make vegetable flutes. So I guess you might enjoy the first Viennese vegetable orchestra. So if you look at the uh Gamusa Orchestra, which is I guess.org, which is the uh Viennese Vegetable Orchestra's website, uh, you can uh check it out. And by the way, for the for the Nastasia's records, uh Florian is 38 with two kids.
+
+[25:22] Uh his wife is Italian and does not cook, neither does uh her mother. So that's going back to the Buggiali thing about not every Italian mother is a good cook. Uh so she was mostly fine with whatever I do in the kitchen. Best greetings from Vienna. So the um the first Vietnamese the first Viennese vegetable orchestra is about 10 people.
+
+[25:42] At one time it was about 12. You can go on their website and they did a crowdfunding thing like a couple of years ago for their most recent album, which is called the Green Album. But you you might actually enjoy this instead of crowdfunding Nastasia. You ready for it? Kraut funding.
+
+[25:58] Crowdfunding. Yeah. They make uh so like they make all of their stuff. They do they do a lot of work with cabbage, they do herbs, they have a lot of multi-fruit instruments, so like a carrot with the bell of a bell pepper on it to kind of make the thing. If you and all of their stuff is available on their website to kind of listen to.
+
+[26:16] And you know, I like some of it better than others. It's all kind of in the modern music kind of like realm. So, you know, it's don't expect like a lot of melody. You know what I mean? It's like it's like exploring the tonal landscape of vegetable music is kind of what they're doing most of the time for the for the three or four tracks that I listen to.
+
+[26:40] But it's all there, and you can get your groove on kind of vegetable music there. But I was also sent a rather amazing uh video, and you you'll I'll just I'll tell you first, it's uh the person's name, he's on the on the YouTubes is Poopsy, I believe it's pronounced poopsy, P-U-P-S-I, right? And a couple literally the day that Phil Bravo was talking about carrot flutes, uh, this guy put out a video where he plays uh All-Star by Smash Mouth completely on melons. And so the beginning part of his video, have you seen it yes, Daz? The beginning part, Matt, have you seen this?
+
+[27:23] I have a cue-up for the minute we finish the show. So they so the first section of it is him creating like different sized melon instruments to get the different ranges that he'll need to do Smash Mouth, and uh also he's constantly recording anything that he is doing, like scraping melons out or like you know, drilling them out with uh, you know, with his drills, tapping them, and so he's getting a lot of the percussion and a like a lot of the lower end and scratchy stuff that way, and then layering it presumably in Pro Tools or something like this, and then does the entire Smash Mouth uh all-star just Melon. Just melon. And I was like, wow, this is pretty good. Uh and then I went back and looked at his old videos.
+
+[28:11] So he starts, it's you should start at the maybe at the beginning of his career as a as a fruit and veg musician. He starts by covering Future's uh mask off with uh you know that song, Matt? I do not. Percocet, Molly Percocet, Percocet, Molly Percocet. You familiar with Future?
+
+[28:32] No, I don't listen to Future. Okay, but you know who future is. I'm aware that there is a person named Future. Okay. Well, anyway, so his first cover he does is that, but he completely cheats.
+
+[28:42] So he's doing, I think mainly carrots, right? But he also plays bass in it. So just an FYI. Poopsy, what he does, I think for a living, is make ocarinas, which is an instrument that I'm not really familiar with. And he said in a quote in his first thing, my ocarinas are like my children, which is kind of a weird.
+
+[29:02] And he says that you can get in touch with him and he'll make ocarinas with you. So I don't know whether this is some sort of weird, I don't know what it is. But anyway, so I was a little bit like, I get it, future that's cool, but you're playing bass, and I'd already seen Smashmouth. But then I have to say, he moved on from that to a sweet potato version of Toto's Africa, which is amazing. The sweet sweet potato Africa is amazing.
+
+[29:27] So you have to see that and then go see Smash Mouth. But the the innovation in Smashmouth that makes it, I think, uh super good, is that he takes two watermelons and joins them together to get a very low note so that he can do the lower notes in Smash Mouth, the bass notes, strictly on watermelon, so worth a watch. So what do you got there, Stas? What just came in? I think this is from Caprice Sun.
+
+[29:49] Indeed, it is. Yeah, what are we what do we got? Well, he was very wet when he dropped his off. Jesus. He didn't even come in and say hello.
+
+[29:57] He really wants to remain anonymous. Oh, got a clam broth house t-shirt. For all of you that don't know, the clam broth house was a restaurant in uh in New Jersey, and they had a sign that said, with a big hand it pointed down, and it's like clam broth, right here, clam broth. Oh yeah, we gotta look at a picture of that afterwards. And and so uh the restaurant sadly went out of business, but the way they used to have it is you'd walk in to the and a long sh longshoreman uh from the Jersey waterfront used to go work there, and they would just have an ever-flowing fountain of clam broth.
+
+[30:32] And you know, in addition, you buy drinks, but you just put your cup under the clam broth fountain to get clam broth. And Jack Shram from Existing Conditions and I were like, We're gonna do clam broth at the existing conditions, and my partner Don was like, no, no, you won't. And we're like, clam broth house? And he's like, no. And I was like, yo, clam broth, right here.
+
+[30:52] And I made the the hand with the pointing down, and he's like, double no. But I appreciate the clam broth house t-shirt. What do you Oh, Anastasia has a hammer dripping blood. Now let me ask you a question. Because she is the hammer.
+
+[31:06] Let me ask you a question. What have you struck with the hammer that is causing it to be bloody? I think I know, but what do you think? I mean, I think we know it's your head, right? Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[31:17] Then you got this. What? What is it? Semolina from Bob's Red Mill. Oh, alright.
+
+[31:23] We have Bob's Red Mill Semolina. By the way, I don't know why they they hate us, but they don't they don't do our show anymore. But it's uh 32% hydration, hand mix with water, rest 30 minutes, extrude them. I can't read what this says. Oh, uh four oh, with a meat grinder uh with a with uh I can't read the dye number on it.
+
+[31:44] Anyway, cool. Uh I've never tried the meat grinder technique. Although uh Johnny Hunter swears by that. By the way, they're he's closing the underground butcher shop. He's still gonna do wholesale, but anyway, haven't talked to Johnny well.
+
+[31:57] Thanks for the shirts, thanks for the pasta. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh by the way, the uh album of the Viennese uh vegetable orchestra that I enjoyed the most was Onion Noise.
+
+[32:08] One word, onion noise. You like that? Onion noise. Uh and I'm sure everyone's already turned us off so they can go listen to Smashmouth. Yeah, that's also one way.
+
+[32:17] I just they paused. They paused immediately. Yeah. Uh coming in from it doesn't say, does it say who it is? Riley.
+
+[32:25] Uh I want to start by uh thanking you for all the great products and content you've released over the years. I've learned uh much from you and love all of the Booker Index products. My Black Friday spinzall has just arrived. Great. Uh I'm emailing you because I recently uh touched on a topic I didn't realize was so controversial.
+
+[32:43] That uh whether or not you should add butter to a vacuum bag when you're cooking a steak sous vide. Do you have an opinion on this? Well, you know I do because you quoted. Anyway, uh I conducted a taste test experiment and wrote up a blog post uh that outlines the current state of public opinions, including an article from yours in the cooking issues blog, as well as my results. Let me know if you have any feedback or comments that you would like me to add on your behalf.
+
+[33:04] Uh okay, so the controversy, I went and looked at the um uh at your you know the blog post. By the way, can we say what it is? What I don't have what it is. I saw it on the on the Instagram, but I I anyway. So the controversy.
+
+[33:18] One. The question, people is: should you put butter in the bag? And I'm gonna give my opinion after I read what the theoretical controversy is. Kenji Lopez Alt says he doesn't suggest adding fat, either butter or olive oil to the bag and cooking steak sous vide. He theorized that added fat was absorbing fat-soluble flavor compounds from the meat and then being poured down the drain with the bag juice slash butter.
+
+[33:38] I just don't think that I've I read that and I completely disagree. I don't think he tasted the butter after it came out or did any side-by-side tastes. That's just that's just theory. Uh two, Chef Steps has suggested adding butter and olive oil to the bag with steaks in several of their recipes and guides. Dave Arnold, that's me, has previously suggested putting butter in the bag when cooking Sous-Vide.
+
+[33:59] Yes. Modernist cuisine adds suet, uh i.e. fat to their Sous vide steak recipe. A little overboard. I guess the idea is beef on beef.
+
+[34:07] Uh please don't add, and I'm gonna talk about this in a minute. Don't add dry aged fat to the bag unless you want the whole thing to taste like dry aged fat. Okay? Just letting you know that. Sous vide Everything published a video to YouTube where they did a blind test taste test on a single person who preferred the steak without the butter.
+
+[34:26] There's no such there is no taste test on on one person, right, Riley. Okay, and then and then from your website, from your test, you said in order to reduce the number of variables and potential biases or inaccuracies, I chose a very simple preparation method and started with four New York strip steaks that were purchased together, etc. etc., etc. etc. sliced.
+
+[34:45] Now here and I'll give you my uh example on it. I think like, you know, Kenji's position here, I think is relatively untenable. That's just kind of a theoretical position. As I've said before, I had the um advantage of cooking the same test over and over again when I was teaching uh low-temp Sous-Vide at the French culinary for you know dozens of people at a time, dozens of times, which was kind of you know good. Uh my thing about uh why add butter or fat to the bag?
+
+[35:19] Well, the primary reason is because uh I'm not using a vacuum machine, okay? So if I'm not using a vacuum machine and I'm using, let's say, even say, let's say I was using a vacuum machine. We'll do two routes. Let's say I am not using a vacuum machine. Well, I want the bag to be in close contact with the meat, right?
+
+[35:42] Because that's how I'm gonna make sure that I get good heat transfer. That's how I'm gonna get rid of air in the bag so that I'm not having it like have like a little pocket that you know doesn't have good contact or where there's air in contact with it. I need something to help take up the space in the bag because there I don't have a vacuum where I can just suck all of the air out. So you need some sort of something to take up space in the bag, right? To help it mold around the product.
+
+[36:08] Now, you shouldn't use liquid because uh have you made broth before? Stas, you've made broth, right? Water a hundred percent leaches the flavor out of the meat. And if you have excess water, even if it's not leaching the flavor, the meat, and this isn't a theory, I can tell you this for sure, the meat ends up tasting more poached, more like pot à feu than than it does as though it was done in a dry cooking manner. So you don't want to add typically liquid to a bag unless you want it to taste more like a braise, right?
+
+[36:40] Even on something that you're cooking low like a steak thing. It's just I don't think it's optimal, okay? Sometimes in something like a sausage, you can cook in a very, very highly flavored broth. And I've run some tests of cooking even meats in very highly flavored broths, what I call equilibrium broths. So, like hot dog water on the street is an equilibrium hot uh hot dog broth where the broth tastes exactly as much like a hot dog as the hot dog does, and so soaking a hot dog in it does not change its flavor at all.
+
+[37:10] But the vast majority of liquids that you add aren't like that to a bag. I'm just telling you, they're not. So in general, you don't want to use liquid that is water-based, you want to use a fat. Now, uh when you're sucking a vacuum, right? So the the liquid the fat is there for that reason, right?
+
+[37:27] To take up space in the bag. In a vacuum scenario, if you don't have any liquid and you're just vacuum, let's say a steak, the sides of the steak are gonna get crushed into a pillow shape, right? Or whatever you're choosing. Now sometimes, like with a duck breast, this is fine, you let it crush and then you mold it on a flat surface so that the skin side is flat, so that when you do your later finish, when you you know sear it after you do your low temping, right? Like it's flat because you molded it flat.
+
+[37:55] But it's very hard on something like a steak to get it to look nice unless you put something in the bag, and then you get those horrible kind of souvied looking steaks that look all angular and relatively bagged even after they're cooked. So in those scenarios, you want to use a fat just to take up space in the bag so that the bag has somewhere to go without crushing your meat. Now there you want to use a liquid fat uh because in a liquid fat, it will um a liquid fat will allow it to conform to the bag shape, right, uh very easily, but a sol uh whereas a solid fat won't, and if you used a warm solid fat, then you'd have to be vacuuming a meat that was not cold, and as we all know, you need your meat to be very cold if you're gonna vacuum it because all hell is gonna break loose because it will boil off a lot of the water, etc. etc. Complete nightmare.
+
+[38:49] Um, the flavor transfer off of the fat that you put into the bag is minimal. Now, the exceptions to this are if you use a highly so butter, I mean, sorry people, I love butter and the flavor of butter, but plain butter that hasn't been browned or anything is has good flavor, but it's a relatively light flavor. So when you pull a steak out and you sear the ever-loving crap out of it in a pan or with a searzole or with a broiler or on a grill, you're burning, you're torching off a lot of that, a lot of that butter. So maybe you would notice it, maybe it not. But in general, I serve my steaks with olive oil poured over the top of them.
+
+[39:27] And the olive oil is the primary flavor of oil that I get. If you have a highly flavored or rancid oil, a very tiny amount of that on the surface of the meat is enough to transfer the flavor, and so you want to avoid it, right? So certain things can be tasted in very small concentrations, even if they're just on the surface, right? And so for I would stay away from those oils unless you want those flavors. And this especially that goes for fish.
+
+[39:56] So a lot of highly flavored olive oils, I don't like the flavor of them, low-temped with fish, right? So there I'll use kind of a more neutral uh oil. Now I noticed in your tests, you're searing in canola, which is now a fairly neutral flavored oil, but back in the day, before they could properly deodorize it, was I think my least favorite oil. Everyone touted it for health, but I thought it was nasty. I couldn't smell anything or taste anything that was made with lower end canola oil.
+
+[40:22] This stuff doesn't uh have a bad taste anymore, so it's so it's fine. Uh but anyway, that's my uh feelings on on that on that subject. And by the way, Stas, uh, have I done yet uh chinchilla rabbits, the fur deluxe uh for classics in the field? I don't think so. Okay, so I'll do that next year because everyone needs to know how to raise uh chinchilla rabbits because you can raise them either for fur or for meat.
+
+[40:43] Do you like eating rabbits, Nastasia? Mm-hmm. Yeah? What is it you like about eating rabbits? They're good.
+
+[40:50] Really? I kind of like rabbits. What's your favorite style of rabbit? Do you like like a fricassee like a ra like catchatory? That was more like a roast brave.
+
+[40:58] I don't know. What about well, Matt, you don't eat rabbits. I do not eat a rabbit. I don't know. I like rabbit.
+
+[41:03] I don't cook it a lot. Uh we'll get into I'll talk more about cooking rabbits next week when although I should do a fish-based classics in the field if we're gonna have the salmon people here. Yeah. Anyway, so for this week, I'm going to do uh for this week's classics in the field. We'll do a quick one because I know that we have to scoot out of here.
+
+[41:22] Uh so one of the things I hate doing is carving. Hate it. Do you what do you think about carving styles? Do you mind it? Do you care about it?
+
+[41:30] I don't, I'm not good at it. But so I have always had kind of a little bit of agida about it, and I think it's because like people in my family, if you did a bad job carving, would make fun of you. I also something I don't like about it because like of the kind of head of household, like weird gender issues that had with it, and then you know, like the man should carve. But like the whole thing about it always bothered me. And also making a fool of myself, carving something in front of thing, and my family is the kind of family that will make fun of you if you're messing the stuff up as it carves.
+
+[42:04] So, in general, I have stayed kind of uh away away from carving, right? And most people are so inept at carving nowadays that in general, even cookbooks are like present the animal, bird, whatever, the roast beast, as uh the Grinch would say, then take it back to the kitchen, kind of carve it in private, where you can like shove your fist into its cavity, rip it all apart, and make put it on a platter, and then bring the platter back out, right? And so I think that's kind of the average thing that people do now. But I remember when the one time I went to Danielle restaurant, Danielle. Did you ever go there, Sus?
+
+[42:43] Yeah. The one? Did you like it? Mm-hmm. I loved it.
+
+[42:45] The one time I went there, the uh server did old school like table side like carving service, and something so nice about it, about the formal nature of seeing the thing and the carving, like again brought tears, brought tears to my eyes. And so I think it's kind of worth uh worth doing, but there's a dearth, even now, there's a dearth of uh material on the subject out there, uh, carving. And this was the case even back in the 50s when the first edition in 1959 came out. And I will say uh I will say this one thing about the art of carving, which was by the editors of House and Garvin Garden, is uh it is a courtly of uh gender kind of craziness. I'll read it here.
+
+[43:29] So Harriet Burkett, who is the editor-in-chief of House and Garden in 1959, wrote: The art of carving came into being for a very personal reason. Two years ago, my husband and I got into a friendly argument about the best way to carve a leg of lamb. I mentioned it should be carved straight down as you carve a ham. He was all for the slanting cut. To settle our difference.
+
+[43:48] I looked for the definitive volume on carving a Christmas tree present for him. I thought I could, but I could find nothing. Despite the great wave of gourmet gift books, the subject of carving seems to have been completely overlooked. When I discussed this amazing omission with James Beard, House and Gardens food and wine consultant, we decided that it full-scale recognition of the neglected art of carving was overdue. That was the genesis of the House and Gardens monthly carving club series, for which we invited some of the world's master carvers to demonstrate demonstrate their skill before the camera and explain in words their tricks and techniques.
+
+[44:21] Now we have collected and printed the articles in this book, a book we believe you will want to give uh and to own. Now here's the interesting thing. She is looking for a book to give her husband on how to carve meat, right? So here it is, she's acknowledging the kind of the gendering of carving that took place. Like she was clearly gonna cook the meat, right?
+
+[44:43] And then the meat was gonna come out and clearly he was gonna carve it. But here's where the twist comes in and the kind of gender choral you of the book, which I think I find interesting, is that she was publishing the stuff in House and Garden magazines, so she had to publish the articles as though the woman was gonna do the carving because men weren't reading that magazine. So it's put in this kind of interesting spin where they're trying to do this women can carve too, which is like a weird thing in the 50s. But that's not the reason I really enjoy the book. I enjoy the book because of the crazy pictures of the owners of restaurants with their meats.
+
+[45:23] And it's very much I even like modern pictures. I love it when the owner or the uh chef who's not a media savvy chef, because this is in the 50s, none of these people were media savvy, where they just pull the person out of the kitchen in their whites, or the owner or their maid or D. You know the old school made or D look styles with the kind of black jackets and everything in the white, and they're standing there like this, like lurch, like standing there because they don't know what to do, but they're doing the very formal carving, and all of the meat is cooked in 1959 or 1960, so it has that kind of crazy look. And there's just something so charming about it that it's worth looking at and uh you know rereading for how to carve the old school joints of meat that come out. And this is the and it does everything.
+
+[46:10] There it does seafood, leg of lamb, varieties of beef. In fact, the very first one is uh he was a White House chef and became the corporate chef for uh Hamilton Beach, and so he shows how to carve a beef wellington using what people still use for beef wellington, an electric knife in 19 uh 59. The rest of it don't worry is with traditional stuff. James Beard co uh shows you how to carve a porterhouse steak in the style of uh like Luger's, although he makes the crucial error of discarding the bone after you take it out of the porter house instead of giving it to your most favored guest. Uh, but shows why the other like turkey carving section, which is uh from uh a famous hostess in Riverdale at the time, shows uh you know the proper use of the little paper things that they used to put on the backs of turkey legs, so which were for gripping the turkey leg when you were carving and for no other reason.
+
+[47:00] Uh so it's just an interesting old book, and I'll read the very first uh section that uh James Beard wrote in the intro. Carving is one of the more spectacular of the table arts if it is done properly. Uh what it what a treat it is to watch a host or hostess with good knives, a steady hand, and an understanding of anatomy and the skill to make each slice of meat fall rippling. And the last one of the last sections in it is how to hack up a lobster properly, and that one is by someone who's little known nowadays. Her name is uh Dionne Lucas, and she were Lucas, I guess, and she was kind of the progenitor of uh Julia Child, the very first woman to graduate from the uh Corden Blue Academy, started her own cooking academy in um in England, uh, and she died in 1971.
+
+[47:48] So I never saw any of her cooking show. She had the very first cooking show, in fact, in like 1950, television cooking show, I think, in England. So, anyway, if you're interested as I am in seeing old school formal ways of cutting things that I don't necessarily all agree with, uh, and uh just like looking at pictures of 50s and 60s meats uh and how they're carved. Go pick up uh the art of carving on uh ABE books or something. You know, I think copies cost like two bucks.
+
+[48:18] Anyway, classics in the field cooking issues, yeah. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[48:48] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[49:10] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort. The ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights. Luxury that knows no bounds. And live entertainment that always thrills.
+
+[0:16] It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort. The biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over.
+
+[0:27] Please gamble response. Muckle shoot. This episode is brought to you by you. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash donate to become a member today. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:47] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from pretty damn close to 12, actually this time. From Rupert Sabia. Ah, Robert. Rupert of Space Rambus with Brooklyn! Joined as usual with Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[0:59] How you doing? Good. You're hammering it up this weekend. Yeah, getting ready for the Christmas. Nastasia Lopez has stolen, stolen, she asked for it.
+
+[1:05] It wasn't stolen. I wish it was stolen. It'll be a little bit better if it's stolen, but get this, people. She stole some bows from the official Rockefeller Center Christmas tree. And so in the next week, the next couple of days, actually, if we can ever be in the same room long enough, Nastasi and I are going to distill Rockefeller Center Christmas tree.
+
+[1:24] So what's this? What's the tagline? Oh, I forget. What was it? Something good, right?
+
+[1:29] Get lit on. What? What is this? You'll think of it in a second. But the whole point is is that if you want the opportunity to actually be drinking the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree, suck it, because it's only us people.
+
+[1:41] Right? We're not gonna get really well. I mean, like, how are we gonna get it to actual listeners? Oh yeah, no. Well, you know, we got Matt in the booth.
+
+[1:51] How are you doing, Matt? I want to taste that tree. Bring it. Alright. You're gonna have to come to us.
+
+[1:55] Whoa. Wow. Wow. All right. Styles real rough.
+
+[1:58] It's not like we have a weekly thing that we both attend. We're not gonna see you till January. It's so true. Yeah. Uh that's right.
+
+[1:59] This is the last show before the hot. No, we'll bring a little taste, a little taste, a little taste. We're gonna distill it because Nastasi was like, that's so hot. Maybe we should make a syrup. And I was like, Well, don't you want it to be really, really good?
+
+[2:15] Because the syrup's not gonna be as good. Syrup's gonna be not as good. You know what I mean? No, no, what do you think, Sas? Yeah.
+
+[2:22] Nastasi and I have a long history of distilling Christmas trees. Yeah. People were like, did you, did you make sure that the tree that you distilled was organic? We're like, come on, man. Come on.
+
+[2:33] Come on. We washed it. No, we didn't bave. We haven't distilled it yet. Oh, the old trees we never washed.
+
+[2:40] We washed that, didn't we? Mm-hmm. Eh, it was for MTV. You always told people you did. It was for MTV people.
+
+[2:46] Speaking of uh people, we have a full studio today. We have like so today is like the the Oura King salmon, right? Which is, you know, the famous salmon from New Zealand. We have the team in uh along with with Maisie here, who's a friend of Nastasia's, and also just a pro not a publicist for Oura King salmon, just a professional lover of Oracing Salmon. That is correct.
+
+[3:11] Yeah, yeah. Uh and then we have so I'm Dave, if you're listening. We have Dave Vid, and say hi. Hi. Now, what is your relationship to the Oricing salmon?
+
+[3:21] So I'm the uh sales manager for the East region of North America. Now it's nice to know that they hire, I mean, I mean, whatever, but like they don't force like a New Zealand person to be the sales rep in North America. They they have an honest to God North American doing it. Unless you're a spy. You can do like different accents so perfectly that I can't tell.
+
+[3:39] Well, David Smith would be a perfect spy name, right? Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. Be perfect, be perfect. Alright, so and then uh over here, I'm gonna I remember them because they've arranged themselves in the Saturday Night Live name order.
+
+[3:50] We have Lauren. Hello. But Loren, not Lauren. Lauren. Two syllables.
+
+[3:55] Yeah, and and uh what's your relationship to the Oracle? I am David's counterpart, so I am the West region sales manager. So any kind of question you have over any part of North America, where does it divide? Is it divide at the Mississippi or at the Rockies? Chicago.
+
+[4:09] Chicago, not even to the Mississippi. So wait, who gets Chicago? Um it has fallen in my territory. Uh listen, uh for those of you that aren't from the United States, Chicago ain't in the West. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that.
+
+[4:22] It's a bone of a contention. Yeah, I mean, I mean Denver, Western City. Chicago? No. No, not so.
+
+[4:30] Not so much. Yeah. But whatever, you're like, I'll take it. Why? Is that where you're based?
+
+[4:34] Is that why that happened? No, I'm based in Sacramento, California. Ooh, sat down. You like Sacramento rap? Um, I don't think I've I don't know if I'm so familiar with Sacramento.
+
+[4:45] There's a lot of rappers out of Sacramento. Yeah. I know that East Bay has a lot of rappers, but um, but in terms of how is Chicago in the West region, um, if you look at the US as a whole and think about the amount of consumers that would be using Oura King from basically outside of California in the Midwest. Um there's not a whole lot in the Midwest, so it made sense to add Chicago to my territory in terms of just big cities. Number of humans who buy salmon.
+
+[5:18] Yeah, it's it's not so much in Wyoming and North Dakota, South Dakota. Plus, I really wanted Texas, so. Oh, that's why so it's so it's a crooked. It's a crooked line. I traded Texas for Chicago.
+
+[5:31] All right. Chicago for Texas. All right. All right. Okay.
+
+[5:29] Lauren also gets Hawaii. Oh. Yeah. Oh, uh we'll get back to the West Coast in in just just an itty bitty, itty bitty minute, right? Because uh it's gonna be an interesting problem with the King Salmon and New Zealand and like introduction in the early 1900s, etc.
+
+[5:51] etc. We'll get into this in a minute. But we also have uh another uh Aura King uh human, we have uh Michael with us. How are you doing? I am well, thank you.
+
+[5:59] Yeah, so and what is your relationship to the Oura King? Uh I'm the vice president of sales for the North America market. So you're kind of the overlord of salmon for the New Zealand King. Overlord. Overlord.
+
+[6:10] All right. So call in all of your salmon-related questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Let me just say at the very beginning that my older son Booker has since he was a tiny boy been a fan of Russ and Daughters appetizing shop. And which, if you've never been to Russ and Daughters, bring your wallet.
+
+[6:31] Uh like I love it, but let's just say they know how to charge and they're not afraid to do so. But the quality is top-notch, and by the way, if you've never had if you've never had uh salmon cut by an expert, freshly cut by an expert, and you're only now if all you can get is pre is pre-packaged, pre-cut, I'm not saying that you're like, you know, a terrible person, right? Because you just don't live where there are Jews. But if you have been to a place where you can go get freshly cut cured salmon and you taste that, you you really can't go back. Really, you really can't go back.
+
+[7:09] And Russ and Daughters, even though, yes, I know it's true, you know, most everything everybody gets is from Acme, blah, blah, blah. But, which is a fish curing place uh here in New York, uh, their product is consistently top-notch, their slicers are top notch, and they are a slice of New York that you should not miss if you come to New York. Now, the reason I bring this up is that uh with the exception of some weird little Scottish things and some other like you know, little bizarre nuggets of stuff they get in every once in a while, the top shelf of uh Russ and Daughters salmon panoply, and by the way, they have more than six types of salmon that you can cut. I just made it up, but it's true. More than six.
+
+[7:51] The top, the very top, it's not called Aura King there, it's called New Zealand King, but I verify that it is in fact an Oura King salmon, and this has been my son Booker's favorite since he was a small child. Now, uh I also, because you know, who wants to pay that kind of money to feed at the time like a seven-year-old, right? You know, with like like a an extremely picky, autistic spectrum child who wants to shovel ridiculously expensive salmon down their throat to the tune of like a half pound at a time, right? Because I mean, who who wants to do that? Not me, right?
+
+[8:25] So, you know, uh no offense to the Norwegians, but the Norwegians have a relatively low-fat Atlantic salmon that they farm salmon that they cure, and it's fine, but it's on the cheaper end of the Russ and Daughters salmon list, right? Not a bad product. Uh New Zealand King though. So I remember when he was about seven, maybe seven or eight, I bought uh New Zealand King, and I bought the Norwegian, and I blinded him on it, and he just pounded literally, I was like, What you know, what do you think of these two salmons? And he just pounded the entire New Zealand king.
+
+[8:58] It just ripped through the New Zealand King. So my so Booker, from a very early age, has not only loved this product, but consistently been able to choose it in blind taste tests. So after he, by the way, after he did that, I was like, oh, buy it. Okay, fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:14] Like, fine. You know, he's the same thing with uh fish row. He loves, he he loves uh you know, salmon, specifically Ikura. He eats that by the half kilo roughly. Oh, he's gonna love you so much.
+
+[9:27] He eats that by the half kilo. So he'll buy a half kilo and then just kind of eat it. Uh but at Russ and Daughters, he buys the it's not your product, but he buys the French trout row, and he's only limited in by that by money, because there's only so much I will spend. Nastasia once bought how much did you buy from for his birthday that time? I don't remember.
+
+[9:45] It was an absurd amount. Yeah. He ate it in one sitting. Like, Nastasi was like, Oh, he can get like $50 worth of it, or something ridiculous. And so he got the tub of it because I always walk in, I was like, I will buy you exactly $10 worth.
+
+[9:59] And so like Russ and Daughters would sit there with a little scoop and make him his little bit of French trout row. He walks and said, I'll take $50 worth. And then he just Hoovered. Anyways, so lover of your product. On a side tangent, which we'll talk about here, and I'm gonna let you guys talk about it as soon as I tell you what I'm interested in talking about.
+
+[10:19] Uh I came to my attention, I don't know, in 2009, 2010, that New Zealand was at the forefront of fish anesthesiology in a product called Aqui S, which is an isousional usionol-based fish anesthetic. This fish anesthetic, uh, I ran many, many tests on it uh because I was able to get it on kind of just a you know, here play with it, even though it's not technically allowed for use as fish fit as fish anesthesia for food in the United States. It is, I believe, for moving high value marine animals around. And ran test after test of anesthetized fish, fish that were anesthetized before they were slaughtered, and consistently across the board, less uh less gaping in the fillets because the rigor is l is less hard, uh, firmer flesh throughout because it's just less damaging stuff through rigor, and as a side benefit, the salmon are freaking out less when they're getting you know bled out in the water by the bushel film. Okay.
+
+[11:16] So uh I was like, huh, this product is from New Zealand, it can't come into the United States. And then I remember once at a trade show, I went to your booth and I was like, yo, you guys use the aqueous, and they were like, yes. And I was like, whoa! So I took that as information that this is maybe the only I know that some people pump gases into the water stream for uh an you know, let's say calming the fish before they get slaughtered, but at least back then it was my impression that you are, and you could tell me is the only people that are using this uh kind of anesthetic, which is known to me to make a better quality fish for a uh commercially sold product. Is that still true or was it ever true?
+
+[11:56] It it was true. It is no longer true. Um all those things you just said, all the benefits are accurate. And we did use it as a uh anesthesia to uh to help with a humane harvest, reduce the stress on the fish. It's it's based on clove, right?
+
+[12:13] It's a clove essence. So if you think about it, like if you have a toothache, what was the old traditional way that you would deal with the pain on your tooth? You'd put clove oil on it. Especially if you watch the Marathon Man and were really afraid of Nazis. Yeah.
+
+[12:26] Great movie. Um, yeah, so Aquies was uh basically kind of taking that uh and applying it in a setting where fish were going through a stressful moment and trying to calm them. Um so there was ethical reasons behind it, you know, being humane harvest, and then there was also qualitative reasons where you get better flesh quality um through the use of it. And the regulations here in the United States uh honestly were all they were never clear. Uh it was generally regarded as safe, G-R-A-S.
+
+[12:58] As a spice. Uh I mean, like usually and isousionol were generally regarded as safe for use in foodstuffs. Yeah. Yeah. The sticky thing was whether or not it was rated as a medicine for fish, right?
+
+[13:11] Wasn't it this some stupid that was my impression at the time. Go ahead, sorry. My impression, and this is, you know, I'm on the sales side, so I'm I'm not the compliance guy, but my impression was it was all very vague and open-ended, um, and there were no regulations against it. Uh but a few years ago, we got some pushback um um from uh one of the agencies here, and we're like, well, you know, it's not really clear. We were under the impression this is approved and there's all these great benefits from it.
+
+[13:39] Uh there's no harmful benefits that were harmful effects that we're aware of. Uh but the agency said no, we just want you to stop using it, you should stop using it. Bloodheads. And so uh and so we did. Yep.
+
+[13:52] So listen, uh so do we so and did you stop using it across the board, or do you just stop using it in stuff that you ship to the US? Uh across the board. Son of a gun, stupid. Like, so in other words, like something that is clearly better. You were supposed to write the article on it.
+
+[14:08] What article? For the uh I wrote a I wrote an extensive blog post on it. You were supposed to write an article. For who? No, that was on lobsters.
+
+[14:14] Same. It was the same thing. Same. No, we used Eugenol on lobsters because the Aquies people were like, you should try it. They don't talk like that because they're from New Zealand.
+
+[14:21] You should try it on lobsters. So I was like, we did, and it worked. You know what I mean? But uh lobsters, when they get anesthetized, they get all they get wacky. They start walking kind of you know in the wrong direction.
+
+[14:34] They're weird. Anyway, yeah. Uh but uh again, there's a a benefit to it. Um the only one that we didn't get a benefit was with eel. It just because the eel is so bad.
+
+[14:45] When you buy live eel in like Chinatown, here, at least the places I used to buy live eel in Chinatown, it's just been swimming in its own filth so long. It's just such a filth fish. You know what I mean? I love and I love eel so much. Like eel eel good eel, I love good eel, but like filth fish eel, like dirt basket, like you know, like recirculated poop eel, not the money.
+
+[15:09] We got some good eel in New Zealand. I bet you do. I bet the second clearest water in the world, we can pull some eel out of. It's because you guys won't let us bring our ships and nukes over there. I'm just messing with you.
+
+[15:19] Uh it's true though, you won't. Uh but so you know, my grandfather, my late crazy grandfather, uh, who motorhomed around the country and lived in my driveway for three years, uh, and my parents drive it really, I didn't, you know, I wasn't paying the mortgage. Uh he visited Australia and New Zealand one year. I think it was right after my grandma died, and he was like, I love New Zealand. Australia, not so much, they're a bunch of ripoff artists.
+
+[15:45] Agree or disagree. I don't know. He wouldn't be more specific. He just did not enjoy the people in Australia, but really like the people in New Zealand. I have Australian colleagues, so I think it's I'll just take a pass on that.
+
+[15:58] So you agree. What I'm getting is that you agree. I've never been to either of them, and you know, I kind of have equal feelings about Australians in New Zealand. No, no, no. I've been I've been to both.
+
+[16:06] I've I've lived in New Zealand for a hot second doing hop harvest. New Zealand Kiwis are amazing, and if you want to go to Australia, just go to LA. It's the same and it's closer. Ooh! Wow.
+
+[16:15] Ooh! Damn. Sorry. Wow. Like what part of what part of LA?
+
+[16:22] Well, no, uh, Sydney in particular seems a lot like I mean, well, it has it has the diversity of places that LA contains, too. It's just they're the same city. Okay. Alright. Yeah.
+
+[16:33] All right. Okay then. So you you don't have to say it, Michael. We got Matt for you. Say what you clearly believe by the look on your face.
+
+[16:40] Uh Devin in the chat has a question about fish. Let's do it, Devin. Uh Devin was wondering what the what their take on the differences in customer perception of farm fish is in the US versus the rest of the world. Um he says lots of vitriol against farm fish amongst sports people and environmental types in the US, some for good reason, some misguided. Uh and he's not a fan of writing off all farm fish as bad as some do, so yeah, he's wondering about that.
+
+[17:07] And a quick summary of War King's environmental policy. Thank you. Yeah, so um This is David, by the way. Yeah. So so farm fish, yeah, you know it does have a lot of people have um, you know, bad thoughts on it, I I would say, but I think it's just goes back to education.
+
+[17:25] So educating these people about the right uh farming practices, which we do down in New Zealand, so um I think if you educate people in the States, um, I think they're more inclined to uh you know go for farmed fish. And then as far as or as far as the rest of the world goes, I'm not really sure on their outlook. Um I know in New Zealand it's it's really aquaculture is really a a big um big industry and it's really looked looked upon as a a good thing and um New Zealand's kinda leading the way as far as aquaculture goes. So yeah, that's um I mean if we're gonna get into it, let's just get into it then. So I mean specifically people get bent about uh overfeeding and therefore kind of eutrophication of the water underneath the feeding thing and then also the high amount of inputs to feed a carnivorous fish uh versus I don't know, just eating vegetables.
+
+[18:16] I don't know. So like like those are the two are the two things. So it's like don't fight. And you know, and and uh th there's some other issues too that we'd be happy to talk about, but I think you the first thing you said was overfeeding and possible uh impacts on like the seabed or the uh fit uh immediate environment. So uh at our farms uh we feed uh our salmon.
+
+[18:42] Um it's like a spinner that spins out a uh pellet, and that pellet I can talk about the components of the pellet later, but that pellet goes into the water, the salmon comes up uh they take the feed, uh some of it trickles down, they take the feed. And we have underwater monitors. So uh in there's a guy in the booth watching the monitor, and the king's salmon will feed until they're satiated. And as soon as he sees that they stop taking the feed, the um the feed gets cut off. So you don't have anything settling to the bottom.
+
+[19:13] You're not having any build-up um of feed, excess feed in the water. Which also can impact other species. So that's that's the way we control that aspect and and don't have an issue with it. And what's it what's like what what what are the pellets made of? So um it's made out of uh marine uh oils and proteins.
+
+[19:32] So these would be pelagic species, sustainable species like anchovy or mackerel or uh sardine. Right, because people get bent on the over like the like the indiscriminate overfishing of what would be garbage on saleable fish and turning them into feed for higher value fish. So that's called uh a FIFO ratio, so fish in, fish out. So the amount of feeder fish you use to produce the same amount of so one how many pounds of feeder fish do you need to produce one pound of of uh salmon? So our FIFO ratio is actually 0.8 to 1.2.
+
+[20:07] So we're considered net producers of biomass. So you're but so then you must be fluffing it with some kind of veg protein too. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I mean they they have they have to have proteins and oils to live. So if you're reducing your bio biomass, your marine biomass input, you need to supplement with something, right?
+
+[20:26] So we use land-based oils and proteins. So uh canola canola oil could be an input. And do you guys grow that or do you get that from Canada? Uh I do not know the country of origin. Um our feed suppliers uh can be like in Australia.
+
+[20:41] I think our main feed suppliers are in Australia, actually. But um I do know all of our feed components are GMO free. Um so uh canola oil can be one, uh there can be soy as a protein base. Um there can also be some um some poultry meal fit for human consumption, poultry meal, but salmon are omnivores. Um so that's how we're able to uh keep in balance our fish in fish out um ratio and also have healthy salmon.
+
+[21:10] This is a a big issue with a lot of the um NGOs that assess farms on their sustainability. So, like for example, the Monterey Bay Aquarium has a seafood watch program, and your fish-in-fish out ratio is a big part of your score. We've been very fortunate that they've come to assess us and the other New Zealand salmon farms. And we've, you know, we did very well. We got their top green uh best choice rating.
+
+[21:39] Um that was one of the components. They look at quite a few. They look at how you the environment, the immediate environment, um, wild species impact. Um, I'd have to look at my notes. There's probably like a scorecard of about 10 to 12 different elements that they they score you on.
+
+[21:55] But we we did well on all of them, and we got the the top rating. And when you go take it away from fish in, fish out to just feed conversion ratio, like how many pounds of feed makes a pound of salmon about. Or is that not something it's monitored the way it is for like chickens? I'm not sure if it's yeah, no, it is, yeah. FC FCR is a big a big ratio because it's also feed is your biggest cost in the industry.
+
+[22:20] It's so you know, being able to control that has you know, there's sustainability issues, but it's also just sustainable means like, well, we need to be a sustainable business. Um we need to control our our feed costs. So I think we run uh um about at a one-to-one ratio in terms of um F FCR conversion. Well, unless there's a lot of stuff swimming through your nets, it can't be that low, right? Chicken's the lowest in the world, isn't it?
+
+[22:46] Or no? I don't know. I'll look it up. We'll look it up. I don't think so.
+
+[22:49] I'll look it up later. I don't think any land animal could be lower than a uh uh animal that lives below the water. Gravity is the enemy for land animals. They they use a lot of energy to stay upright. Remember though, a chicken's only alive six weeks.
+
+[23:05] I mean, you know what I mean? Like we kill them real young. Like how old is one of these salmons when they get when they get uh typically about two and a half years. And that like what about yay? Uh not quite that big normally.
+
+[23:17] They'd be somewhere between 10 and 12 pounds, typically. I was holding my hands out as one might when they're thinking about fish. Uh I can't think of fish in pounds. I really think of them in yay. You know what I mean?
+
+[23:28] Like it's about yay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We got a yay one in the box here. Oh my god.
+
+[23:33] Okay, so listen, here's some more questions for you. So I already told you that my son Booker uh can you know pick your product out of a lineup, enjoys it very much. Uh, but you have a whole category of people who are like, the farm salmon doesn't taste the same because it doesn't have the diversity of diet that you get when you're getting a wild salmon. Go. Um, I disagree.
+
+[23:54] Yeah. I think it's um I think our salmon is really I I prefer it to wild salmon. I think it's cleaner, um, it's got more fat. It's it's less fishy, if you want to say. So it's our you'll try it here in a second.
+
+[24:10] Wait, so you say it's got more fat and is less fishy, because that seems like it's counter. Although it's eating less fish fat, it's eating you know relatively neutral fats like canola. Right, right. And you know if you want to talk about while you're while you're answering, if you want to talk about the relative uh importance of the feed to the flavor of the animal, I mean go ahead. Um, I was just I was gonna follow up on David's comment about wild versus um farm um profile.
+
+[24:38] So you first of all, you have to make sure you're if you're gonna really compare it, compare the same species, right? So we raise king salmon. Which you know comes by its name honestly, am I right? Okay. You said an ummy.
+
+[24:51] Um you'd have to, you know, compare it to a wild king, right? So uh wild fish um you know have a uh if if you have a look at like a normal distribution of flavor, you get a lot of range, right? You have and you can have the most beautiful, perfect, wonderful wild king salmon and flavor. You can also get one that was caught late in the season, it's making its way up river, it's starting to get a little beat up as it's going up the spawn and it's breaking down. And that one's gonna not taste so great.
+
+[25:20] Might be a little muddy, it might be a little dirty, flesh might be a little uh a little soft. The stuff that would ordinarily get canned. It just well is later. It was just caught late in the season, you know. Um it you know, it's not it's just it's just different.
+
+[25:32] You get a a wider spectrum of flavors if you're eating a wild king. Uh but a a great wild king is is awesome and it's beautiful and it tastes great. Uh and I love it. Um with a farm king like we do, it's a tighter distribution, right? So uh each fish is gonna taste more like the other one.
+
+[25:51] You won't get as much uh on the on the um extremes. But uh but without doubt, our fish has more fat. So we've bred them that way, um, and we've raised them that way. We have about a 25% fat to lean ratio, with a typical wild king will be somewhere between twelve to fifteen. So that's a pretty pretty big difference.
+
+[26:11] And uh and king king is one of the fattier of the salmon breeds anyway. Yeah, right? It is the fattiest. Yeah. You know what?
+
+[26:18] Nobody likes a dry salmon. Am I right about this? Uh I'm with you. Yeah. Nobody enjoys it.
+
+[26:23] Yeah. I don't think so. Well, that's what's it's so it's really hard to dry this one out. It's all that fat. Like we call those please don't overcook it just because you said that, please.
+
+[26:31] Please. We call this the wagyu of salmon. I mean, it's it really does have that like luxurious quality to it. But like in a hot smoke application, therefore, right? So hot smoked salmon, the taste, everyone likes the taste of hot smoked salmon, but let's be honest, it's like, you know, so dry, so dry.
+
+[26:47] You know what I mean? Like, so you're saying that this is good hot smoke application salmon? This is the best hot smoke application salmon, in my opinion. And do you think, going back to what you said before, because uh when you said that the feed that you give them is partially marine um based oils, which you know, let's be honest, fish oil is fish oil, you know what I mean? And uh taste-wise, uh, that the fact that you are feeding, you know, hopefully deodorized and not rancid terrible canola oil.
+
+[27:15] Does anyone guys old enough to remember how crappy canola oil used to taste? It was so garbage. I I people be like, it's healthy, and I'm like, it's garbage, but like now it's completely deodorized, it's fine. I can use it, it's fine. Uh but anyway, so I don't know whether or not that transfers through, but do you find that by using plant-based oils in addition to the fish oils that you get a milder taste on the fat, so you can have something that's less kind of overtly fishy but still have that uncuous fattiness, or does it not play a role?
+
+[27:44] It's a good question, and I don't know if we really have the detailed research and data to answer that. This is a project of ours to develop very complex sensory analysis on our fish, which I think would, you know, we'd be one of the first in the industry to do that. Where we do, you know, objective, quantifiable uh sensory analysis at some institution that does this all the time, whether it's for coffee or wine or or whatever food product, um, and really drill into like the specific flavor profiles, what could be driving the the variables in each element um and really get much much much precise on that. But it is a fairly new industry and uh we're not quite there yet. Right.
+
+[28:33] Well you need but we want money behind those like in other words there needs to be a we want to get there. Yeah there needs to be a money there needs to be money behind the potential answer to the question in order to answer any question that has to do with taste. You know what I mean? Well going back to that I know um when we did use that aqueus to uh that did leave a bit of a flavor like you could pick up some of the clove if someone told you about it. When I was running tests if I told you I used clove oil you'd pick it a little bit.
+
+[28:59] But like also I mean like I mean you remember you were doing the taste test it's like it also depends on the dose rate of that stuff. This stuff is incredibly it smells like cloves and then you're dosing it at a certain rate per gallon presumably you guys in a in a in a flow through tank because you were also then bleeding them out right I mean like they were dosed in tank you I don't know how it works but I guess you put them in a pen and then they'll you keep the water running and you bleed. How how does it work exactly? Well when we were using it it was a little different. So we we all we harvest at su on site at the farm.
+
+[29:31] So we uh would corral them in in nets, get them into smaller groups smaller groups mean less stress, get them into smaller groups and then uh put some aqueous in the water at the recommended dosage. They would get kind of like calm and a little bit a little bit sleepy. And then uh and then you would gather them up in a in a basket, and then they would go through this um kind of a a ramp where you would get them to kind of like make their they would start to like swim up this little ramp that get to the top where there was a percussive stunner and a and a bleeder. So first the percussive stunner knocks them out so that at that point they're out cold, they're not gonna feel anything. Right.
+
+[30:10] Because you don't want that lactic acid release. That's really critical. So that's your equivalent of the brain kill of the of like an ikajime spike, but yes, yeah. Exactly. It's like it's a ekimi like concept.
+
+[30:21] Yeah. Uh and then you would cut it, cut it. And go bleed it. Start to start to bleed out, goes in an ice slurry, heart's still pumping, and uh it continues to bleed out. Yeah.
+
+[30:31] Yeah, yeah. Sorry, people, that's what happens when you eat a fish. Right. Gotta bleed out. And that that like to me, like stress at kill is one of the primary drivers that has not been adequately addressed commercially in terms of and one of the problems with wild caught, frankly, fish, is that they is that even if the taste is fantastic because they've been eating whatever, but like, but seriously, the stress at kill for a wild fish can be enough.
+
+[30:54] That's why a lot of wild farm stuff you see, a wild uh fit caught fish you see, you have a lot of uh, you know, gaping problems in the fillets because of the intensely hard rigor they go through because of the huge amount of lactic acid buildup and loss of ATP during the capture process. Um we work with a uh company in New Zealand that does w wild catch called Lee Fisheries, and they have really built their company on how they catch and harvest the fish. They ekajime every fish they catch. And their quality is outstanding. Yeah, I mean look proper kill method is like I say, the problem in the US is that there's no way if you're going if you're selling to a chef and you're selling like a large quantity and you're like the fish purveyor, you can sell on stuff like that, but at a market to like an at to a person, like how are you gonna just you can't justify to someone unless you build a name around it, like Oracing's building you know, built a name around itself.
+
+[31:51] But you know, how do you get someone to pay that extra three you know, three, four dollars a pound if they don't even know what the heck you're talking about? And that's why when I used to do the Ikajime demos at the school, you know, people were like, Well, are you trying to get people to you know go Ikajima their own fish? I'm like, well, not really, because you know, to buy live fish to get brought into your restaurant is fantastically expensive. So unless you culturally need to do it, plus that that fish is living in stress in one of these circular tanks at the holding place for however long. And so, you know, you know, really it's just you know, r in those demos, I was testing fish held in a tank killed without Ike Jame versus fish killed with IKJM held in the tank.
+
+[32:33] So the variables were the same across it, but I wasn't really advocating that people necessarily do it in their restaurants. I was more like more people should know that this is something to do so that they will ask their fish mongers and pay more for it. You know what I mean? I think that's the answer to it. Hey Dave.
+
+[32:49] So we have a caller on the air. It is not a fish question, but uh it's like holiday related, I think. It has some level of urgency. You want you want to take that or no? Urgency, I like that.
+
+[32:59] Like someone needs to use the restroom. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Hello, Cody. How you doing?
+
+[33:04] I'll turn it into a fish question, by the way. What do we got? All right, awesome. It's the Ultra from DC. Um it's uh feel free to turn this one in the fish craft question.
+
+[33:13] It's actually about uh I wanted to see if you could talk about uh food trucks a little bit. Um getting one designed and equipped. Um more like a you know, like a a trailer, food trailer. Um and uh just to get your thoughts on like you know if if you were doing it what what were some things that you know you would say are uh utmost importance things to watch out for uh if you have any knowledge on it at all since Nastasia has actually done this I've done it Dave has not done this so what do you what do you what do you say don't do it it's awful it's it's horrible there's like we're there's permits there's water tank problems there's BTU problems there's God well what do you she was doing pasta so she needed like she needed fundamentally like high BTUs right because you were front but did you have a gas based fryer or electric fryer? We weren't frying we were just boiling water.
+
+[34:09] You didn't use fryers to boil the water? No you had specific pasta boilers but they were like fryers. Yeah yeah it took a lot yeah but then the tank or electric gas but the water tank can only hold so much then you gotta go dump it in like a specific sewer area that is made for food trucks that could be like you know miles and miles away. And I used a trailer not a food truck. Okay so right we have a facility already with all that stuff equipped like the issue of where where it's gonna be and how it's gonna be cleaned and stationed and all that is less of a problem for us.
+
+[34:47] And uh it's kind of like an offshoot of an existing catering business. A lot of the infrastructure problems that surround people are just starting like straight with a food truck we're trying to get around does that make sense? Yeah, so what's your question? She still hates it. You're not gonna get I don't understand that.
+
+[35:04] You're not gonna get in a state. I'm not gonna be like, oh, that's great. Yeah so but like for from a power standpoint, that was a good point to bring up. Like the the ones that I'm seeing now, we're looking at an 18-foot trailer, and it comes with like a hundred amp uh box for the electrical stuff, two hundred-pound propane tanks. But I I don't know as far as like power requirements, what that is gonna satisfy, uh, you know, like how crazy we can get with that.
+
+[35:30] So so for propane specifically, you need to look at your entire gas consumption over like all of the hotline stuff that you have in there, and all of that stuff for propane is rated typic unfortunately, typically in BTUs per hour. So then, and I forget what the numbers are. I I used to have it at the at the tip of my fingers because you know Nastasi and I have worked with torches quite a bit, which are done in BTUs per hour. It's a relatively easy conversion to convert pounds of propane per hour into BTUs per hour. And then you can determine how many hours of burn time you get out of your tanks.
+
+[36:02] Now, the caveat is is you said you had hundred-pound tanks. I hope you're not going over any bridges. No, you're gonna be stationed or through any tunnels. Uh, because that's a huge nightmare, even with 20-pound camper style tanks. But I will caution you against using anything smaller than the hundred-pound tanks because as you vaporize propane, it gets colder through evaporative cooling.
+
+[36:24] And a 20-pound tank, even through a regular, like, you know, uh like a regular my regular fryer, which I think is about 60,000 BTUs or something. No, it's more, it's like a hundred thousand. Anyway, my a standard fryer, I forget how many thousand BTUs it is. It's it's 90, I I gotta look it up. It's been a long time since I had to know all this, but it would chill my 20-pound tanks down to the point that um they would no longer deliver propane adequately to supply the fryers.
+
+[36:50] And so I needed to wrap a heat blanket around my propane tanks to to get them to go. Now, if you're doing something um with a hundred-pound tank, a hundred-pound tank should be, especially in DC, which is a sweltering hellhole. Just kidding. Uh no, yeah, yeah. Uh it should maybe be warm enough to be able to a hundred-pound tank should be warm enough to not get too cold as it's delivering the propane.
+
+[37:12] You shouldn't require a heat blanket for that. Whereas if you attempted to run them off smaller tanks, you would definitely need a heat blanket. What are you cooking? Uh trying to keep it you know versatile. So it's not like it can be any one concept.
+
+[37:24] Be, you know, catering for different events and um a rotating menu. So I was I was thinking of like getting a small combi in there, two fryers, uh a griddle, and a stove. A combi is the biggest hog of energy in the entire planet. Like, if you actually need a combi, you could try to put a combi in there, but seriously consider getting a CVAP, which has a much lower energy input. Like, energy is gonna be your nightmare.
+
+[37:52] If you're like pumping the like the energy management's gonna be your nightmare. You know what I'm saying? Uh even when it's gas-related, like a combi, even a gas-fired combi uses more uh in its convection stuff, uses more electricity than you would probably think about. And the electricity is gonna have to be provided from a generator. That generator is gonna need to be running all the time.
+
+[38:14] So you need to get one of those really nice quiet RV generators. No quiet generator. This is why people don't like when when you're camping, they don't like camping next to the RV section. You should just do you should just do cured Oricing salmon. There you go.
+
+[38:29] There we go. There we go. We bring it back around. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[38:32] Yeah. We got a whole how-to how to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you do? Well, I have a curing question.
+
+[38:38] All right. Well, think more about it. And like Nastasia is never, like, I will never be able to give you any in-depth stuff on this. I have never personally done the food truck. Maybe someone in the chat room has it, but Nastasia is so vehemently against it.
+
+[38:50] Also, remember with Kickstarter, yeah. Also, she did she did a Kickstarter in conjunction with a truck. No, no, no, I'm saying the equal level of hatred. Oh, but she was also serving gluten-free pasta through a Kickstarter thing in a truck to college students. These are all things that she hates.
+
+[39:05] Every single aspect of this is something that she hates. And so, you know, as she is my co-host, I can't really, you know, I'm not gonna because I'll pay if I say anything positive, I will pay for it later. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, she has and by the way, you know, Nastasia, like, you gotta love it. She, once she says, I hate this, it doesn't matter.
+
+[39:30] Someone could be like, I'll hand you a giant break of cash. You just gotta stand in a food truck for one more day and serve gluten-free pasta to college students. She's like, no. And they're like, a giant break of cash. Like, you need a forklift for the cash, you like, no.
+
+[39:46] Like, that's just the way she is. Yes. Maisie, you know. Am I wrong? You're not wrong.
+
+[39:50] Yeah. That's exactly how she is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. All right.
+
+[39:54] So wait, something I was uh thinking about as you were going back to salmon. Uh something I was thinking about uh as you were talking. Um everyone's worried about uh well, another thing people worried about eating um carnivorous fish in general is bioaccumulation. But since you're at like a fish in, fish out of negative, presumably that means that you guys aren't a bioaccumulator. Like, in other words, your fish is not a bioaccumulation, so you're not gonna have any Jeremy Pivot.
+
+[40:22] It was the sushi that made me do it. I got mercury poisoning from all the sushi. Remember that? He doesn't tell it like that. But you don't remember that?
+
+[40:29] Yeah, so like have you ever like done any of these uh kind of like like like is that part of your marketing that's not like a like a highly bio a bioaccumulative uh fish. I'm not that familiar with that concept. So uh well people don't eat because look look, it takes like eight billion pounds of small fish to make a tuna. Right. Right?
+
+[40:50] And so, you know, all of that stuff has like whatever mercury was in it from the fact that we polluted the universe wor world. I guess not the universe yet, portions of it. And then uh so but all that mercury stays in the tuna, which is why when someone says, by the way, I hope you know this people, when you buy something that says mercury-free tuna, what is actually happening is they are just harvesting tuna that are small, and they are making the o ocean devoid of small tuna before they can grow large, because the only way to get a mercury-free wild tuna is to kill it when it's young before it is eating a lot of fish. FYI. Um, but the we go back to that because there's on farm tuna is another interesting thing because with the exception of Kindai, which I don't even know if they're still around, nobody does closed cycle farming on tuna, unless maybe it's been years since I've looked at it.
+
+[41:44] You guys are completely closed cycle, you're raising your own fish, right? Right. Now, another problem people have with farmed uh fish, especially in places where the fish is not from, is uh that no closed system is truly closed, escapes, blah blah blah. But king salmon has been um naturalized in New Zealand since at least the early 1900s, and so you have actual like king salmon chilling in New Zealand, right? So you guys aren't that worried about escape.
+
+[42:14] Like it because I know in that part of the world everyone's worried about escape of you know cane toads and other horrible I mean not New Zealand, right? You guys don't have any horrible invasive stuff in New Zealand, do you? Except people. They're very, very strict on biosecurity in New Zealand. So it's I mean, I don't like like you can't bring in uh you can't even have a snake as a pet in New Zealand.
+
+[42:38] See listen. Like zoos aren't even allowed to have snakes. I'm not saying that you know that you shouldn't have a a snake as a pet because people do enjoy walking around the city with snakes around their necks, like you know, big kind of I don't know, like like it's kind of like a nice ornament in the way that like uh Gunja Gable Williams, the famous uh lion tamer, used to wear the lion around or the whatever that little tigerette thing was around his uh live, not a not a coat, uh around his uh shoulders. But uh there's one thing that snakes don't is care about whether you're alive or dead. And in general, like I like a pet that kind of cares whether you're you personally are alive or dead, you know.
+
+[43:15] Um so you know, that's my feeling on snakes. Like, you know, you I don't not anti-snake, like I actually I like the feeling of a snake, like a snake, like it feels nice, it's got that kind of it's drier than you'd think, like holding a snake. But snake's never like, hey, how are you when you show up? It's not even like it doesn't even ignore you in a fun way, like a cat. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:35] Like a cat at least is like, you know, actively, yeah. A cat is like it knows you're there, it might not be happier there, but it knows you're there. Snake just like doesn't exhibit play, you know what I mean? Like, at least, you know, when a cat like catches a mouse, you can see the vicious nature of the cat as it like tries to, it like lets the mouse get like a foot away from it before it smacks it back down again. Cats clearly play.
+
+[43:59] Snake doesn't play. Snake with a mouse is just like that's it. Game over. Game over. You know, mouse and snake.
+
+[44:07] Gone, you know. Uh so snakes as pets, not that interesting. They don't even chew. No, they don't even chew. Who wants to deal with something that doesn't even chew?
+
+[44:17] I mean, I don't really chew. That's why Nastasi doesn't like dealing with me. I'm kind of the snake of people. I unhinged my jaw and then uh and then the food goes in. That's probably why they never made a cartoon about a snake, did they?
+
+[44:27] Uh did they make a cartoon about snakes? Well, there's uh, yeah, in uh so here Ricky Tikitavi is full of bad snakes, obviously, because he's a mongoose and he kills snakes. Uh yeah, in the jungle book, uh, what's his name? Ka was his ca is the snake's name. But I mean, as as like a lead character in Looney Tunes, like, you know, there's ducks and there's cats and there's birds.
+
+[44:48] There's uh snakes are no fun. There's a bad guy snake guitar. No, what does he play? Uh in the River Bottom Nightmare Band, I believe there is a snake in Eminata's shug band Christmas, which is one of my favorite Christmas things. There's a snake, there's a lizard, and there's a fish.
+
+[45:04] There might not be a snake. Snakes play dead. That's not playing. That's not a game. That's a survival strategy.
+
+[45:13] I'm looking at them. Are you Googling? Nastasi is like, Nastasi's like, playing dead. She's just like, it's just like banana gramps. Can you teach a few?
+
+[45:20] Baby plays with Python. Baby human plays with Python. I don't think he's playing that. It's the good parenting website. Yeah, wow.
+
+[45:29] Oh my god. Alright, so listen, we have a we have a a question on fish cure. Here we go. So uh in actuality, Patrick West wrote in about how to make uh hot sauce because he's he he takes jalapenos are his favorite, which is fine, you get to choose what you like because it's your sauce, right? And he uh puts them in vinegar and and then uh bottles them, but the s and then uh make blends them and then bottles them.
+
+[45:52] I would recommend if you can, before you vinegarize them, salt them down and let them do a little lacto ferment first, because I really like that flavor. But then, yeah, sure, vinegar it up and bottle it, at which point it should be fairly stable. I don't think you're gonna get a lot of like explosive action after you hit it with the vinegar because the acid I think will be high enough to stop a lot of uh gas. But your problem was the sauce was too thin. And the thickener of uh record in most hot sauces like this, and by that I mean sriracha, is xanthan gum.
+
+[46:20] And xanthan gum has the benefit that as long as there's no mic microbes will eat xanthan, but if you have a high enough salt and a high enough uh acid ratio, none of that stuff that will eat the xanthan is gonna be there, and so it'll be relatively stable for a long time. Xanthan's just stuff, don't add too much because it'll turn snotty. If you just you can add a little bit of xanthan and also a little guar or LBG, be careful with guar, a lot of it tastes nasty, so uh, but I wouldn't even need to. The problem with LBG is you need to heat it uh uh quite a bit. Guar you don't, but most of it doesn't taste so good unless you get flavor-free uh guar from T I C gums.
+
+[46:58] But just try a little bit of Xanthan. Please don't add a boat ton of Xanthan. Use like under a quarter of a percent to start, one quarter of one percent uh to start and let it sit for like overnight until you assess the final uh not in meat overnight, I'm just doing that to be you know safe. Uh to assess the final thickness before you start adding more and more uh Xanthan gum to it. And also realize that if you don't work with hydrocolloids a lot, doubling the amount that you add much more than doubles the thickness of the product.
+
+[47:27] So moving if you're like quarter of a percent is not enough don't immediately go to like half a percent or one percent just go up like in smaller increments because the the effects are more than additive but the question you had about salmon was side note oh side note he just got the okay to purchase uh a Searsol uh and we'll be enjoying it over the house where did he get the okay from his wife Nastasia has Nastasia Nastasia you didn't read it from the misses come on Dave because you have demented gender ideas. Nastasia I thought we were done talking about beta males. Yeah. Who enjoyed by the way the salmon is delicious. Are you they self-proclaimed isn't that the one didn't say beta just said that Oh it's the next guy.
+
+[48:18] No whatever. Anyway so uh it also says hello to Matt in the booth. Uh I ideas on growing m mushrooms. I don't have any info on growing mushrooms unless you guys are you guys mushroom growers? Forager.
+
+[48:30] Forager but not he wants to grow morels. I don't know anything about that. Uh but Paul Stamitz is the guy to look at his books. Uh what do you say I've I've grown like oyster mushrooms and shiitake but never morel. I cooked a bunch of oyster mushrooms yesterday.
+
+[48:44] Uh-huh. How were they? Uh delicious actually. I had the you know the one of the mini one of those mini thinner choy varieties, like something choy. I don't know which choy because it's not written in English where I was and uh yeah I steamed them and then I had uh I had uh sauteed the uh oyster mushrooms uh down and then a little bit of fermented chili sauce, sesame oil, garlic.
+
+[49:05] I had a little bit of sugar just to kind of round it up. Salt, pepper, check, check, chuck chak. Good. Good. As a side dish, because my son, the one who loves this so much, your product so much, he's like, I want fishball soup.
+
+[49:17] I was like, nah, that's easy. He also loves fishballs. Yeah. He doesn't eat red meat anymore, except for he's like, I really like Fukinese fish balls, even though they have pork in the middle. So I will consider the pork in the middle of a Fukinese fishball to be fish.
+
+[49:33] He's got an interesting palate. Yeah. I mean, for those of you that don't know, fish balls are kind of like traditional sarimi style products where you need the fish paste so much that they turn into kind of ping-pong balls. The natural transglutaminase inside of the fish causes a hard. I think it's actually is natural transglutaminase.
+
+[49:51] And plus just the action of salt and like protein manipulation. Maybe it's the recent ones that they actually add transglutaminase to, and that's what I'm thinking of. Anyway, it forms a very strong bond, and so you get very springy fishballs. It's almost like doughy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[50:05] And then you you you boil them like dumplings, and they're like kind of fish dumplings. And so uh Booker loves these things, and but in in in the Fukinese style of fishball has inside of it ground seasoned pork. And it's so it that that kind of fishball is specific to uh like it's Fukinese. And it turns out that where I live is to where Nastasia and I used to have our office is like the the east coast epicenter of Fukinese fishball uh manufacturer. So there are like eight different Fukinese fishball joints in in the neighborhood.
+
+[50:38] Anyway, uh but uh Patrick writes in and says, uh, I would like to do DIY cold cured salmon, decent locks, it's just too damned expensive in Michigan. So this is your problem, Lauren. It's on you. No, it's on fish. Wait, Michigan?
+
+[50:53] Chicago, Michigan. No, Maze West. Is that remember? I guess it depends on where. Michigan.
+
+[50:57] No, she does Michigan. Michigan Lauren. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Lauren.
+
+[50:58] Gotta get that price down in Michigan Warren. Anyway, hold a second. And you can say where to get it. Decent locks is just too damn expensive in Michigan. But I have lakes full of salmon, trout, and white fish.
+
+[51:11] So you well, you said you had a good recipe for curing. Do it. Do it. Oh I I was being facetious, but Lauren, you could probably talk about uh curing. Um let's see.
+
+[51:24] I find the Oracing it holds really well to curing and cold smoking, especially because of the high fat content. Um, but to avoid really masking the flavor and to let the fish be the prevalent flavor, uh, just a simple salt sugar cure is really the best thing. I mean, you can get fancy and do it with some dill or add some gin, but really just a simple salt sugar cure is the best approach for this fish. Yeah, the liquor, like maybe a little, but it's gonna change the it does that weird surface coloring thing. Do you uh are you guys two to one salt sugars?
+
+[52:00] Are you a two to one people? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh I wish Nils was here. Nils is Nils is my, you know, Nastasi and I used to work with the French culinary, like, and when he lived in Sweden, would like do nothing but cure salmon all day long.
+
+[52:17] So he has his, you know, he's has his uh you know his salmon cure. I should have texted before I came. Anyway, uh so one more question, uh Lauren, about uh selling in the West and uh salmon. Oh, also cold cured. I'm assuming you don't mean cold smoke.
+
+[52:32] Cold smoke, if you're gonna cold smoke a fish, first you need to build a cold smoker, and uh the second thing you're gonna need to do in the US anyway. I mean, it really depends. If it's actually cold, like actually actually cold, like refrigerator cold, then you're not gonna have to worry about botulism growth. But if you aren't, like I would worry about it, and then you'd probably have to use in your cure, you'd have to use some nitrites to uh inhibit any kind of uh botulism growth. But anyway, just have to add that.
+
+[53:01] Uh so what's it like selling uh foreign salmon to people in Oregon? Ah, so yeah. Well, kind of going back full circle to your original question about essentially what people think of farm salmon, I think that comes down to if your area has a natural salmon run or not. So the Pacific Northwest has traditionally been a really difficult sell because I mean that's like the epicenter for wild king um here on the West or excuse me, on the West Coast. And who wants to buy a Pacific King salmon from New Zealand when you have natural run in your backyard?
+
+[53:43] So originally it was a pretty hard sale, but um as we've been able to educate our customer base and they see that we have like green rating from Monterey Bay Aquarium and that we actually have really great farming practices, it's not such that like redheaded stepchild, um, because I think people are starting to learn that we will need farms in order to feed the growing population of this planet. What do you think the genesis of the redheaded stepchild phrase is? I was thinking about that too. Is it that they are is it that you is it that as as as it says in the Game of Thrones, dark of hair, dark of hair, dark of hair, and this one has red hair, or is it an anti-ginger thing, you think? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say anti-ginger.
+
+[54:28] Alright. It's also not your child. Well, it's it's one of the two parents' child. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[54:37] I'm always curious. Like, I I didn't mean to jump in, but it's just whenever that phrase comes up, I'm like, red-handed stepchild. You know? I think it's one of those no one knows what it means, but everyone knows what it means. Also, whenever someone says it, the song Love Child goes through my head.
+
+[54:53] Diane Ross? Yeah. Is it going to your head now? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[54:57] I'm not going to sing it. What? Why? I just don't have it in me. Always second best, Matt.
+
+[55:03] Different from the freaking rest. Alright, listen. They don't have that's one. What? It's one.
+
+[55:08] So we're still talking about holding. I gotta, this is our last show before the hold on one second. Oh, and uh listener wanted to know about the existing conditions by uh New Year's Eve, whatever. It's on, do it! Go!
+
+[55:17] Wait, how much it's live. Where do they buy tickets? Go to the existing conditions uh Instagram and it should say, I think it's like it's you know, it's it's from nine till one, and it's gonna be a lot of champagne. We're getting uh we're getting Charles Hidsack. Now that's Chucky Hidsack, not not like, you know, not his brother Piper or sister Piper, Charles Hidsack.
+
+[55:40] We're getting some magnums. So they have this rose champagne that is vintage that they specifically devintaged so they could sell it at like kind of a nice price point only to restaurants. And we have a bunch of cases of the because they the guy came to taste us out on it, and he's like, Yeah, I brought these different champagnes. I was like, You got the pank? I need pank.
+
+[56:00] And then he's like, of course I brought you pank. And so like we're drinking Nastassi also loves the pank. Maisie, what do you think about pink champagne? You like the pink? I like all champagnes.
+
+[56:10] That's a good answer. It's a smart answer. Uh so yeah, so do that. We're gonna be sabering, we're gonna be, you know, doing all kind of all kind of fun stuff at the existing conditions on the new years. I'll be there, Don'll be there, uh, my wife Jen.
+
+[56:24] So if you go, uh for those of you that actually because Jen has never been on the radio show. Yeah, but if when is she gonna do? She's like, how am I gonna go on the show? I work for a living. She doesn't talk like that, but that's basically what she says.
+
+[56:35] And then uh we could get her on sometime. You've said that for years. Okay, why don't you since why don't you do it? Why don't you ask her? She'll listen to you.
+
+[56:44] Anyway. Uh so uh do you remember um Brain Surgeon Jay? So Brain Surgeon Jay actually just got back from New Zealand and Australia and brought some stuff, went to New Zealand first, then went to Australia, and the Australians brought out the dogs and like like threw away all like a lot of the food stuff that he that he had purchased in the in the New Zealand. So he had to go back to New Zealand before he came out to the case. Uh no, yeah, right.
+
+[57:10] So then everything got thrown away. So you get nothing. You get nothing. Which is why if you're gonna do it, like I think that the the power move is to buy your stuff and then ship it directly back to the states. Like as long as you're buying stuff that is legal, because as uh, you know, Dave Carp, the uh fruit guy says, don't bring stuff to uh a country where it doesn't belong, because you really can mess up billions of dollars worth of agriculture and you know, or like wipe out, you know, our most important trees for no good reason just by being an a-hole about it.
+
+[57:41] But if it is legal to bring back, just ship it rather than trying to bring it from one country that has very strict rules to another. And by the way, I mean, if any country has a right to be kind of s snippity about uh snippety about their you know, problems with biological imports, Australia kinda they get that. You know what I mean? Like rabbits. Ooh, I don't even have time to talk about rabbits today.
+
+[58:04] Son of a gun. I have the best classics in the field here. Hold on a second, hold on second. Uh so hold on. Uh, but anyway, so uh Jay writes in a bunch of stuff, which I'm not gonna have time to do, but I will say this.
+
+[58:17] One thing I forgot. Remember, if those of you who remember, uh, Jay is building a new kitchen, brain surgeon, so I told him to make sure that he didn't mess up his hands and he has you know plenty of safety for his hands because you know that's his livelihood. Uh one thing I forgot to mention to you, Jay, is uh sockets, sockets, sockets, power, right? So the classic mistake, and architects won't understand you, and contractors certainly will not understand you. But you, when you have your countertop, you're gonna want a lot of sockets, quad, quad, gfi quad sockets along your countertop.
+
+[58:49] But if let's say you have three socket, three quad sockets going across your countertop, each one of those sockets should be a separate circuit. Listen to me, Jay. Separate circuit. This way, you can run a toaster oven off of one and an induction uh uh burner off of another, and then something like a blender or a vitap off the third, and you're not gonna blow all of the circuits. If, like me, you have your microwave, which by the way, suck it, buy a microwave, people.
+
+[59:16] It is useful. Don't be that person who doesn't have a microwave in your house. It's you, David. They're good. I don't have a dishwasher either.
+
+[59:23] Uh well, come on then. Go dishwasher first, more important. I stack my toaster oven on top, uh, one or the other. I forget. I think the microwave is stacked on top of the toaster oven because you know they fit under the counter, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[59:34] But then you run the power cord down from the mic or the nuke over to the other socket so that you can run the toaster oven and the microwave at the same time because nobody, nobody likes to do appliance juggling where you're like, oh I hit that! Don't turn on the rice cooker, I'm also toasting. Don't it's funny you say my my rice cooker blew a circuit in my house last weekend. Well, was it like some what else was on the circuit? Uh my blender.
+
+[1:00:02] See? Yeah. CJ? You're a brain surgeon. You have the money.
+
+[1:00:06] Get different circuits, run to your uh to your quads. Now, it is acceptable uh on a 15, no, I mean maybe not by code, but by m me to run LED lighting off of it and also some power equipment because your LED light really is so low that you're not really worried about it. So as long as you are fully LED light, which you should be, and by the way, good lighting in your kitchen, also a freaking must. But you can do like I used to do, and if your kitchen is uh right next to your living space, you can put some barn doors on your lights so that the light just drops like a freaking stone. As soon as you leave the kitchen, it goes into kind of like design-friendly, architecture-friendly lighting.
+
+[1:00:47] But in your kitchen, it should be bright as because it is, you know. Bright as an operating room. There you go. Oh, I like this. Anyway, all right.
+
+[1:00:56] Uh Anonymous writes in, maybe you guys have expertise in this, you know, uh, especially maybe the West Coast uh contingent. I don't even know what the rules are in New Zealand on this. Anonymous writes in about weed. Uh I'm hoping Dave could do a scientific treatment of a topic mired in pseudoscience, decarbing. So uh taking the carboxyl units off of uh THC, whatever it is, A, turning it into the one that can get you all uh, you know, that has less is psychoactive.
+
+[1:01:21] So uh there are all sorts of anecdotal methods floating around, but it's fundamentally a cooking chemistry question that I've never been able to find a serious resource on. My general understanding is a psychoactive compounds in marijuana need to have a carboxyl group cleaved off become psychoactive. This is no problem in smoking, but oral consumption requires or a king consumption. Uh oral consumption requires a pretreatment, usually referred to as decarbing. Recommended procedures vary widely, but generally average out to something along the lines of baking in a 250 to 300 degree oven for about 10 to 30 minutes, depending on source.
+
+[1:01:49] Uh, and a lot of this is based on this uh graph that was done in the early 90s. But from all I can read, uh the kind of graph is garbage. I would do research uh on uh pressure cooker usage. I would you pressure cooker can maintain a pretty clean uh 254 to 59, depending on which one you have, degree Fahrenheit uh environment, and you can seal the the weed inside of a glass jar. I would probably do it to get good transfer in the presence of oil if you're gonna cook with it anyway, but I'm not an expert because I actually don't consume any of that stuff.
+
+[1:02:22] But uh that's the route I would go for a way that you could actually control temperature at home in an easy way. Uh, because you can an oven, you have evaporative cooling, there's no weight. Like as long as the the weed still has moisture in it, you're never actually gonna get the temperature up beyond 212. And then as soon as the moisture is gone and you start going to those higher temperatures, you're gonna get toasting browning off flavors and kind of loss of volatiles in a sealed system. I think you're gonna be much better.
+
+[1:02:46] But like, you know, go look that up on the internet. This episode is brought to you by you. Heritage Radio Network makes your favorite food podcasts. And now we need you to lend your voice to our community and show your support of food radio. Become a member today.
+
+[1:03:04] HRN releases 35 weekly shows each week and is a globally respected voice in food media. But believe it or not, we're still a very small grassroots organization. HRN is powered by a small but mighty staff of four people. And HRN's incredible hosts who volunteer their time to bring you the best food podcasts out there. Our hosts are experts in their field, whether it's food writing, mixology, culinary history, craft beer, LGBTQ issues, and so much more.
+
+[1:03:40] And they're committed to making sure that the stories that matter to you keep coming each week. We believe that a thoughtful, committed group can change the world. So join us. Add your voice and support HRN by making a donation of any amount. Go to Heritage Radio Network.org/slash donate.
+
+[1:04:01] Josh wrote in about doing a standing rib roast via Chef Steps. I wasn't able to look at their standing rib roast recipe. Your question was Chef Steps was doing a three-rib roast, which is uh five to six inches uh at six hours for 58C, and you plan on cooking a four-rib roast. Uh now the problem is that I don't have a picture in my head of which six inches you're talking about and kind of how big across the rib roast is. It in my mind, like a five to six inch rib roast can be modeled roughly as a cube or a sphere.
+
+[1:04:30] It's not longer than it is wide. So it means it'll cook relatively faster. I don't think you're gonna double your time because you're not like so. If you double the size of the sphere that you were cook that you were cooking, you would multiply the cooking time by four. Got that?
+
+[1:04:46] You double the width, you multiply by four, because that's how cooking uh works. Uh, you're not adding that much. It will take longer because I think I I just think it will. If you so let's say you had something that was one inch thick and it was one inch by six inches by six inches. Well, there the one inch is drowning everything out, and the six inches doesn't matter.
+
+[1:05:06] So then if you were gonna take it from a one inch thick six by six thing to a one inch thick, like eighty by eighty thing, it would still cook in about the same amount of time because it's the one inch that's getting you. But because I think that your product here can roughly be modeled as a cube or a sphere, increasing the length of one of the sides actually probably will increase the cooking time, but it's hard for me to say how much, and I wasn't able to get in touch with the chef's dev people to uh figure it out. Uh Nathan Page writes in from Lexington, North Carolina, which by the way, I know you talk about your barbecue there. I much prefer Eastern, Eastern North Carolina barbecue. No offense to Stamies in Lexington.
+
+[1:05:41] No offense to Lexington, North Carolina. You guys do you a North Carolina barbecue? I'm a Texas guy, sorry. All right, so I won't even get it. So you but you but what about pork though?
+
+[1:05:48] I mean North Carolina's got a good pork. Uh Alabama for pork. Really? Yeah, I like Alabama. We'll fight later.
+
+[1:05:55] Uh you know, we we should get cat here. She's an Alabama girl. I don't know. So what what are you like Hill Country, Texas? Are you like a brisket person, a hot links person?
+
+[1:06:02] What are you? Yeah, hill country, so like Austin, yeah, brisket. Like uh it's good over there. It is. You know what I don't like though?
+
+[1:06:08] I went to one of the famous places, shall we name this so it was so much freaking black pepper. It was so much I mean, and by the way, I love black pepper. So much! I couldn't taste anything else other than the black pepper. Also, I'm not a sauce guy.
+
+[1:06:24] I like to just eat the meat. Yeah, I'm a sauce guy. You're a sauce guy? Yeah. And well then you'd like Lexington because in so North Carolina and Lexington is kind of like the so eastern eastern, like coastal North Carolina is a zero red tinge in the i in the, you know, call it a sauce.
+
+[1:06:42] The vinegar hot pepper stuff that you put onto your pulled pork and that your barbecue and then when you get over the Lexington area, which if you've ever sold furniture over near like high point that say big sales thing for furniture and all that stuff is Lexington, North Carolina, that's where you start getting some kind of red tinge in tomato action into your into your product. And I and so you know, I used to go to coastal North Carolina quite a bit because my uh sister-in-law Miley, who now runs the Food Network magazine, she used to write for newspapers down there. So I go quite a bit, and uh was a huge fan of their of their barbecue. And then my wife once went to High Point to sell some furniture, and I did I did maybe six places, seven places in a day. I had a young booker still on my back when I went there, and it's good, but I have to say I'm an Eastern guy.
+
+[1:07:30] Well, if you like pork too, you need to go to a uh a boucherie in western Louisiana. Yeah? Yeah, those are those are good. All right. All right.
+
+[1:07:37] Uh anyway, wants to know uh what was it? Uh I've had good success this deer season, have several deer in the freezer, so I'm looking to get creative with some of the cuts, such as whole deer ham. I'm from Lexington and I love this style of barbecue. I've smoked pork shoulders before. I know there's no chance of getting a true equivalent from deer shoulder.
+
+[1:07:53] I'm wondering though, if I take a whole deer shoulder and uh on the bone and smoke it for a couple of hours before brazing in barbecue sauce, if I can prevent the venison from drying out but still have the feel of a regular pork shoulder. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think it's gonna work. Uh I you know what I've never experimented with, but someday someone could is just injecting a cut like that with liquid gelatin.
+
+[1:08:14] Because the thing about you need to add some sort of uncuousness to the deer that I just don't think is gonna be there. Um but I don't know, I've never done any tests with it. Yeah, I I need to I need to we need to have some hunters on the show, some like hardcore hunters on the show who can come in. Like we should get like who used to do the the hunting thing here, uh Dave? Uh Dave, Matt.
+
+[1:08:36] Oh wow, we just went back in time. Um I don't I do not know. Huh. Also, we're running out of time. Uh we're one of the second Dave.
+
+[1:08:46] Second question. I'm about to I'm about to try uh make garum I'm about to make garum. I'm about to make garum from venison. I usually don't question subbing venison for beef and recipes other than it's considerably leaner, but wanted to double check with someone who might be able to tell me I'm gonna make the Noma beef garum. I uh texted uh uh David Zilber from uh Noma who wrote the recipe for beef garum.
+
+[1:09:08] And I say, yo, is it gonna be okay with venison? He's like, sure enough. He's like, we make it with deer all the time, it's delicious. My favorite is reindeer. So there you have it.
+
+[1:09:17] Uh go uh and do that. Wally uh Wally Gomes wrote in about uh about the fact that he enjoys what we're talking about and somehow we're on the same wavelength that he is with like weird stuff, like Ikajime, for instance. Uh wants to do a fryer with PID. Problem with PID control on a fryer is is that PID control doesn't get as hot as fast because it gets slowly and doesn't overshoot with a fryer. You can maybe uh have it go on a PAD after it hits its top uh thing, but you need very fast recovery, so be wary of using a PID controller on a fryer.
+
+[1:09:51] Eric Lopez writes in about javelinas, wants to make uh javelinas are these little like pig-like animals from like you know, Arizona, New Mexico. Uh someone told him not he wants to treat, he wants to take the intestines and make them into intestine casings, sausage casings. But they'd presumably be small because javelinas are small, so it'd be kind of like a lamb casing. Uh there are apparently parasites in javelinas. Uh there's an article, I don't have time to get into nostasium kill me, but you want to look up the article, The Bulletin of Wildlife Disease Association Volume 4, October 1968.
+
+[1:10:23] Parasites of the Javelina in New Mexico. Most of the stuff is relevant. They have salmonella and E. coli, but not the stuff that's gonna nuke you. The problem is there is a um there is a uh a parasite called uh trichostrangulus columbiformis, uh, which is rarely transmitted through the skin, so as long as you don't eat it, it should be okay.
+
+[1:10:42] But uh, you know, just be careful. Hank Shaw, the person I was talking about, the hunter, writes uh has an extensive section on uh cleaning and cooking and his love of the javelina as a as a food stuff. All right, so I've gotten through uh all of the questions. Speaking of parasites, you guys freeze all the Oricane? No.
+
+[1:10:59] We don't have to no. No. Uh so it's still considered sushi grade even though it's not frozen? Yes, correct. Huh.
+
+[1:11:04] Talk about it for like give me give me that real quick because my impression was that everything had to be frozen, but I guess if you can prove it's parasite free. It it does. There is a New York City or New York State health code that is a little vague and has been interpreted to mean that you need to freeze before serving a sushi. Right. But if you read the actual FDA guidelines on it, it's clear that you don't.
+
+[1:11:26] Um it's a little bit of a overlap, but even everyone's here in the city assumes it needs to be frozen before being served as sushi. That's what we're taught, like straight up, we're taught that. Yeah, if you read the FDA guidelines, it actually uh is Well, how do you guard against parasitic worms in the salmon? Or is it just because they're not going to be able to do that they don't get it? Exactly.
+
+[1:11:47] It's because yeah, because they're not they're not raised in the wild, they're not getting it, and um the feed is heat treated to prevent any parasites. But because you know you can freeze fish very well such that you don't get uh I mean the problem with freezing is that freezing light going through a hard rigger, uh the the crystals kind of break the flesh apart, and when they when it thaws again you get drip loss and weep, uh which can lead, especially especially in a fish that's gone through a uh a very hard rigor, severe you I hope you guys know what I mean by gapping or get yeah in i in the in the fillets and and an extreme loss of texture, which is why like the really the the the people who are doing the tunas, which are are frozen, are freezing in like very cold slurries, incredibly fast freezing to get small crystals. Super freezing. Nitrogen tunnels, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:12:40] Um blast freezer. Yeah. So but you but you don't have to, huh? We don't. I mean, we have some demand for frozen products, but it's more more for convenience.
+
+[1:12:50] Um, like a cruise ship, for example, wants to have frozen salmon as you know. Yeah. Think about it. And they sprinkle it with legion air sauce. It's messing, dismissing.
+
+[1:13:03] That's uh never been on a cruise and now I will never get invited in the wood. Yeah. Uh the or the uh New Zealand king that they have at Rustin Daughters, do you do you sell that raw to a cure house here, or do you guys cure that in New Zealand? Uh in New Zealand, we have our own smokehouse. Um, do all the processing there.
+
+[1:13:19] We use Manuka wood. Oh, Manuka. Yeah, yeah. Do you like manuka honey? Everyone makes a big deal over the manuka honey.
+
+[1:13:26] You manuka honey person? Sure. It is awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:13:28] Yeah, what's not to like. I mean, uh there's a difference between what's not to like and what's to love. Those are two different things. Uh yeah, okay. Yeah.
+
+[1:13:34] They do a cream of manuka that's really good. Yeah, it is it the flavor or is it the health benefits? You know, I don't believe in health. So, like what go ahead, go ahead. The flavor though.
+
+[1:13:42] Give me give us a flavor. What are you looking for in your manuka honey? I'm looking for delicious. Yeah. Oh, do I think manuka honey is more delicious than the normal honey garbage clover.
+
+[1:13:52] Then really good acacia honey, for example. Or you know, uh I think good honey is good honey, and I don't um but manuka wood for smoking uh does have a lot of really good properties. It's got a lot of antimicrobials, which is what you want when you smoke meat and fish. Um and it has a good flavor. Like I if you pick up shavings of Manuka wood, it kind of has like a little bit of a eucalyptus-y uh hint to it.
+
+[1:14:15] So it's unique. It's it's a different kind of wood. But the New Zealand King, cured New Zealand King, though, like for those of you out in California who hate eucalyptus, it doesn't have a menthol y hit. Like they there's no menthol or pininess to New Zealand King. I can say I've eaten a lot of it.
+
+[1:14:33] Uh it is it is a very good product. Now you have here the fresh and you have the the roe, which by the way, I have to take some to Booker or he will t tear my head off. He's so mad that he couldn't be here today. Um where where do people uh get the product? Sure.
+
+[1:14:48] Uh well, our fresh salmon, um most of it goes to restaurant trade, but there are a few places here in the city you can get the fresh product. Um fresh direct is probably the the most easiest way to get it. Um, that's right. And they they label it too, right? Yep.
+
+[1:15:02] Because they also have like lesser priced stuff that's not. It'll say aura king salmon from New Zealand. How come you guys put the put the like is what were people calling it before you put the bar over the O? Um we started with the bar over the Oracle. I started because I feel I don't know, is there any other way someone would pronounce it?
+
+[1:15:19] Uh it's just uh Ooh, ooh. I don't know. And also you go by King, you you you don't use the Chinook because that's specifically a Pacific Northwest thing, right? Because Chinook feels American. Great helicopter, by the way.
+
+[1:15:36] Yeah. Absolutely. World class. Yeah, yeah. Chinook's a North American word.
+
+[1:15:43] It's in di it's a word, you know. So um, first people. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so uh Anastasia and I and the crew have been pounding delicious uh fresh salmon.
+
+[1:15:52] And uh is this uh we're dipping it in soy. I haven't had the uh what do you what do you guys call it? Just roe, you don't call it icurie, just call it row, right? Curred row. Yeah, I'm gonna be eating that.
+
+[1:16:01] I'll be eating that after the show. Listen, thank you guys. Since this is yeah, thanks. This is the last thing I'm gonna do a like 30-second classics in the field. Ready?
+
+[1:16:08] No, uh hold on. Start the classics in the field, yeah! We have to do this every day. Okay, so listen, I don't have a lot of time to tell you about this. Uh Edward H.
+
+[1:16:15] Stahl was the only person in the United States, you know, at the time, and maybe even still, that's made a million dollars off of rabbits in a single year. He had the first million dollar a year rabbit business. He uh invented a breed called the giant chinchilla rabbit, which he did as a fur-raising animal, but also does as meat. And he is like, without question, he he invented this breed or developed this breed, I think, in the 20s, like 1921 or 1926. He wrote a bunch of books and was the reason there was, including my crazy Uncle Rick, not crazy Uncle Marty, who jumped out of the window, crazy Uncle Rick, was part of this kind of the there was a craze, uh, I guess just post-war of people trying to raise rabbits for money because they thought that that's how you're gonna get rich quick because rabbits, you know, they breed like rabbits.
+
+[1:17:00] Uh, so there's a book called Chinchilla Rabbits, Standard Heavyweight and Giant by Edward H. Stahl. And I will read just the poem in the front. You can stop playing that. That's your 30 seconds hour.
+
+[1:17:14] All right. Matt, I will murder you in your sleep if you cut off this poem. This is my Christmas poem to you people. Dedicated to the American Chinchilla rabbit breeder. And just so you know, it's gonna spell out chinchilla.
+
+[1:17:29] These aren't chinchillas, the fur dusting things from South America. These are rabbits. They're called chinchilla rabbits. C is for chinchilla, the rabbit supreme. H is for her highness, the chinchilla queen.
+
+[1:17:42] I is for investment, which you will not lose. N is for none better if chinchillas you choose. C is for champion, the peer of the lot. H is for hardiness, which chinchillas have got. I is for inspiration for young and for old.
+
+[1:18:01] L is for love's labor that never grows cold. L is for Langiera, the source of chinchilla's name. And A is for association that's bringing them fame. Happy holidays, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:18:29] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:18:44] You can also find us at facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:19:06] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. This week on Meet and Three, I'm about to go on maternity leave. This is Katie Moseman Waddler, and before I leave you in the incredibly capable hands of Team HRN, we are rounding out season five with a deep dive into the food rules, weird cravings, and overall hype about eating while pregnant. There are a lot of safe foods to eat, and we shouldn't be sort of assuming that just because something is raw that it's dangerous.
+
+[0:42] I just found myself feeling like there was an alien piloting my body and brain, and uh totally changed the way that I ate. So was it the eggplant? Sure. Why not? I just don't know.
+
+[0:59] Tune in to this week's episode of Meet and Three anywhere you listen to podcasts. I'll be back soon with our newest and tiniest producer intel. Hello and welcome to Cooking Kitcheners. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Kitchen's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever from Emergers Pizzeria, which is not a pizzeria today, but is in fact closed because they are putting a new oven in and they had to break the wall down because they couldn't get it through the big doors that they used to get it through when they first built the place because guess what? There's a radio station in the way, and it was actually easier to knock down the entire sidewall of the restaurant than it was to move the radio station from Bushwick Bronco!
+
+[1:44] See, I tangent brought it back to Bushwright. Yeah, yeah. Uh happy new year, folks. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing?
+
+[1:52] I'm good. We've not really hung out that much in the new year. I know. We've been avoiding each other, which is nice. So I haven't been avoiding you.
+
+[1:58] You haven't answered my calls. And we got uh Matt in the booth. How you doing? I'm doing lovely. Yeah?
+
+[1:59] Yeah. So since we haven't been uh by the way, call in all of your uh it's a new year and I don't know what to cook questions too. 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Uh so you have any interesting food related adventures or misadventures over the holidays, Nastasia?
+
+[2:21] No. No? Did you cook anything fun? No. Nothing?
+
+[2:24] Nothing. Nothing. Oh, awesome. That's good. Good story.
+
+[2:27] Glad glad thanks for sharing. What did you cook, Dave? Well, many things. I'll get onto mine because I can talk about that forever. Matt, what about you?
+
+[2:35] Uh one of my I got I got some good leftovers today. I did some Israeli couscous with uh green olives and dill and some lentils in there. I don't know, whatever else. So I remember when, like, you know, many years ago, when kind of, you know, Israeli couscous when it first kind of hit the New York kind of thingamajig, and everyone was like, oh my god, Israeli couscous is gonna be the hugest thing ever. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:00] It was like, for those of you who don't know, it's just like it's balls of pasta masquerading as couscous. It's one way for me to get even more pasta into my diet. Yeah, well, you know, you you vegoligans need to like can you believe that where by the way, people, just so you know, my older son Booker went on, he was a chick he considered chicken to be a fish, so he was a pollo pesco vegetarian. He wouldn't eat pork or or beef or lamb or goat. Any any kind of like what he considered to be uh red-blooded animal.
+
+[3:35] I guess he didn't he loves chickens, like as like live animals, but somehow he's like, I can't give up the chicken. Anyway, he's back on pork. Not doing beef, back on pork, though. I I had one other food adventure, which is that I was I went to a wedding of a cousin in Texas, and ahead of the wedding it occurred to me, man, I don't think they ever asked me about food preferences. This probably isn't good for the vegetarians in the room.
+
+[3:56] Yeah, yeah. And I ate more meat on that one evening than I probably will in the rest of 2020. So you didn't want to insult them by saying, Yo, I can't break bread with you on your wedding. Oh man. So like I'm a vegetarian, I'm not an idiot.
+
+[4:10] So what what kind of meat did they serve you? I had some very good barbecue brisket. Uh and then I mean everything. Every every food item, including the sides that absolutely did not need meat, had meat in it. So, you know, bacon wrap, whatever, and I don't know.
+
+[4:25] I mean, there's stuff. There was uh it was all over the place. I said was the standout. So that so but so you like the taste of it, so it's more like you just don't you you don't feel right eating eating meat from uh either a a moral or an environmental standpoint. Correct.
+
+[4:37] Okay. Which is it? Both? Either? I mean both.
+
+[4:40] Uh yeah. I don't like paying people to torture animals, and I think that the way that we do it is not great for the planet. Uh it what does Patrick think about this? Uh I don't know. Yeah.
+
+[4:50] You ever talked to him about it? I don't think so. I'm not sure. Ma maybe maybe don't want to talk to him about it. Who who knows?
+
+[5:00] You never know how fearless leader Patrick Martins is gonna respond to any any one given piece of input. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a pro like I think that things like heritage foods, companies like that, providers like that, should exist. I don't want people to stop I don't have a problem with killing an animal for food. It seems like a very natural thing to do.
+
+[5:21] But like CAFOs, maybe less so. So yeah. Caifo uh, you know, uh confined, uh what's it stand for? Confined animal feeding operation. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:31] Confined animal feed like uh terri get bad, but what a great kind of acronym, right? Caifo. It's my favorite acronym to say. Yeah, I mean it's it sounds like if I had to guess what it was, it's it's definitely sounds military. And it sounds like it sounds like something I wanna have when the crap hits the fan.
+
+[5:48] You know what I mean? It sounds like something you wanna have next to you. Stop! You got you it's happening! You got you caifo?
+
+[5:53] You know what I mean? When the zombie apocalypse hits, you think the caveos will be overrun by people being like, I don't know what you do, but I know I want to be here with you. I need it. I need whatever it is, yeah, because like Nastasia and I have regular conversations about like when you know it happens. Tell do you wanna tell them what yours is?
+
+[6:10] Well, the problem is is that I people can horn in on my thing. Here's the thing. So I think this is like what is gonna happen or is this the strategy for survival? Which you never do, by the way. You have 15 minutes.
+
+[6:22] Yeah, yeah, let's say you have two you have 15 minutes. You're host. But like that like here in New York City. I told you when I grew up, like the big thing was is that we know we all figured that we were gonna get at any moment someone was gonna, you know, make a mistake and and blow the whole world up. It wasn't even necessarily that there was gonna be like a war on purpose.
+
+[6:41] It was that someone would insult somebody else or some idiot in some silo somewhere would press a button. Or the flock of geese would trigger the, you know, nuclear radar. Yeah that that thing that has happened. Yeah, yeah. So it's my point is that like, you know, when I was a kid, it was all it's not it wasn't like, are we gonna die in a in a nuclear conflagration?
+
+[7:01] It is when is the nuclear conflagration gonna happen. And in fact, I used to say I'm never gonna, I live, I always grew up around New York. In the crater zone, I might add, because I used to plot that. I would look up like uh yield of current military weapons. I was so depressed.
+
+[7:14] There's a thing called you familiar with MERVs, Matt. No, what? Uh multiple independent re-entry vehicle ICBMs, intercontinent uh intercontinental ballistic missiles. So I used to, what I used to do is I'd be like, okay, for a certain kind of megaton uh style warhead, you know, I would put a compass on midtown Manhattan, sometimes downtown Manhattan, sometimes both, and I would draw kind of the blast radiuses and the radiation radiuses on maps to see kind of where I was in that kind of range, right? And then I go to my dad, who's a uh double E engineer and you know who's worked on you know these kinds of problems.
+
+[7:54] I said to him, uh, you know, you know, what do you think? He's like, oh, no, no, you don't understand. They have these things called MERVs, and so they don't even aim necessarily directly at the city anymore. They just have one missile go up and it splits into like 10 independent warheads, and they just ring the whole city. So we're actually probably in the center of a crater.
+
+[8:12] And I was like, Well, thanks, Dad. Thanks for that. Awesome. You know what I mean? So tell them your plan.
+
+[8:19] You have two hours. So you have two hours. So, like, you know, friend of the show, deep voiceman, Phil Bravo is just like, I'm gonna do nothing. I'm gonna sit on the top of Carnegie and drink, is what he said. Yeah, which by the way, I mean, come on, honestly, like the stuff you'd want to crack that you've never had needs a little breathing time anyway.
+
+[8:36] You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, oh, but oh my god! You know what I mean? Unless you're just gonna get like pounded on like scotch right out of the gate or some sort of like crazy whiskey, it's like you're gonna want to open some wines that are gonna need some time to develop. You know?
+
+[8:50] Good wine. No, he doesn't have that. Good wine's a he doesn't have anything you need. Wait, if you only have you throw a brick through through a wine shop and you get like, you know, but the thing is, is like, you know, a really great bottle of wine isn't like the stuff that you and I normally swill. It it's a relationship that takes at least a couple of hours to develop.
+
+[9:07] Okay. You know what I'm saying? Anyways. Uh so he's just gonna sit on a roof somewhere and drink. Now, the issue is if you live in Manhattan, right?
+
+[9:16] Or any big city, is so Nastasia's relatively close to the water. What's your plan? I was gonna find you. Oh, yeah, but I'm too far away already. I don't live close enough to the water.
+
+[9:26] If you lived on the water, you could just, you know, like I was gonna have an inflatable boat with a motor, like battery, like all battery powered, everything. You know, you keep it charged in, it fits on a rolling cart. You go in, you have a one-time use bottle where you're like it inflates the sucker just like you would on an airplane, motorboat, and out. But you gotta figure you're only doing like five or six knots on one of those things. That's only gonna help if the city is gonna- I thought you were gonna hot wire a cigarette boat.
+
+[9:53] I mean, that's the ideal. That'll get you out of town. You said you were gonna. But how do you know? I don't even know if you can hot wire things anymore.
+
+[9:59] When was the last time you hotwired a vehicle? Like, can you can I don't even know how like boat ignitions work. Sailboat, not fast enough. Although there will be a lot of wind. But uh, but like one thing, the one thing I wanted to do, and I think it's still it's kind of fascinating, is you can get a parachute.
+
+[10:19] Stay with me, Matt. You can get a parachute, right? And then a backpack propeller. And these suckers can fit in. But you can't take your whole family.
+
+[10:27] That's the problem. That's the issue. Is that I don't think Booker would strap on a propeller and a parachute, go to the top of our 20-story building and be like, goodbye. You were gonna punch him in the face, so that he's gonna be able to do it. Knock him out, yeah.
+
+[10:40] Mr. T style. For those of you that uh, the A-Team was a television program, and uh one of the standing gags was that Mr. T, his name was B.A. Barackis, and the show is kind of a big uh, you know, enforcer, but uh, you know, when he was like a uh a soldier in Vietnam, he developed a horrible fear of flying due to uh the pilot, Murdoch, Crazy Murdoch's like piloting ability.
+
+[11:01] And so he won't fly in any sort of aircraft, even if Murdoch's not flying it. So it the beginning of every show is them telling him that the gig that they're gonna do is far away, and then him saying, I'm not gonna get on a plane, and then they drug him and he knocks out and he wakes up wherever he is. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, how many you anyone? A team?
+
+[11:19] No? Anyway. Uh so whenever. I'm not going, I'm not going. I'm like, you know, I'm like, well, I would try to knock him out, but I don't have any sort of kind of like Mickey Finn style knockout drops in my uh I don't know.
+
+[11:33] In my propeller. It's hard to take someone who's screaming. Yeah, he would go on my propeller, sure. I'd have to like, you know, like kind of but he's bigger than I am. I mean, not he doesn't weighs a lot less.
+
+[11:47] He weighs like one pound, because all he eats is sushi and candy. He got sushi uh gift cards. That was his griff uh gif gift from uh his relatives. And he already just he walks in alone to the sushi place and just starts ordering whatever he wants on the gifts table and then just walks out. I am horrified to think what the table looks like where he is seated.
+
+[12:08] But yeah, that's what he's sent him out to sushi last year, and when he was done, he was like, Thanks, goodbye. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're waiting. Yeah, he doesn't understand kind of niceties. The other thing is, uh so like I tell you, he didn't want to go to Connecticut for the for after Christmas to go to my in-laws's house in Connecticut.
+
+[12:26] He's like, I'm not gonna go. I'm almost 18, I don't have to go. So Jen bribed him with a kilo of Ikura. A kilo of Ikura. Now, again, that's like that's a hundred dollar problem for those of you that are keeping track.
+
+[12:39] Ikura is a salmon row. And uh, so he buys it from a place called Aquabest here in New York. And uh $100 for the kilo. And we got it for him. Nastasia, I did not have one egg.
+
+[12:53] Dax did not have one egg, Jen did not have one egg. He finished the entire kilo of Ikura in under two days. Wow. He's just like Jesus. It's crazy, right?
+
+[13:06] Yeah. That when when last time we were on here and we had the New Zealand uh king uh people on, and they, you know, the Oura King salmon, they had their Ikura, and they gave like a jar. It was finished before I got home. That's like not even a snack. He's just like, but but where are the rest of the jars?
+
+[13:24] I'm like, what? I was like, it's so weird. Like the that and candy, that's it. Donuts, he'll eat donuts. Uh, should I do the rest of my non-food?
+
+[13:34] Oh, well, wait, I'll wait. I'll see if I get in the mood to yell about it. Before we get too far from it. Do you know about Nuke Map? Yes, we have looked at it.
+
+[13:42] Okay. Someone showed us the Nuke Map. Yeah, nice. It's based on the same data that we all use, which is the uh the US uh Department of Defense's uh handbook on uh uh nuclear warfare, which I I think I brought, did I bring it, I brought it into the show once, but did I do it as a classics in the field? No.
+
+[14:00] No, but I did do it on the show once, right? No. I never did the nuclear warfare book as a classic in the it's not really a classic in this field, and I'm I'm hard pressed to figure out how I could get it. How I could mentally say that it's even related to cooking. I don't think you can.
+
+[14:19] Certain things will cook when a bomb is dropped on them. Yeah. All things, actually. Yeah, well, it's real. I mean, how many I mean, whatever.
+
+[14:28] I I could go. I I have, in fact, just now gone on and on about it, but I could go more and more. Uh you want to see some nasty animal testing. See the uh, I believe it was I forget which one of the tests. I think it was Baker, which is one of the early uh nuclear tests in the Pacific where they were blowing up uh old World War II ships uh, you know, off of islands, and they they you know had a lot of live animals on those things that they subjected to close we subjected our actual soldiers to relatively long range, not really not long enough range, but to to blast effects and radiation effects.
+
+[15:05] But they put live animals like right in the thick of it, and then uh we did it to real people in in World War II as well. I mean, I it's not forget that, but um yeah, the videos are they're not I mean in general I like seeing atomic test videos, but those are somewhat disturbing. You know, you watch that stuff, Matt? I have not watched that, and I think I will pass. I have seen, I believe, all of the publicly available uh nuclear weapon weapons footage that exists.
+
+[15:34] Um anyway. So we should probably stop talking about nuclear war now. A little bit. Yeah. But what was it?
+
+[15:42] So you were just gonna come get me that's too late. That's all of your time. I thought you were gonna get some sort of She wants to be together. She wants to band back together. You're gonna have the best plan.
+
+[15:52] And uh waiting for anybody else. Like every year Jen and I could do it by myself, but I would definitely not wait for anybody else because they're gonna get people go bags. You need a plan, you know, look, at the end of the day, the problem is when you have a family, you're not willing to leave them behind. Like any good go plan is like if the word the a active word is go, but it's really more like you have to re-gather at some sort of meeting point that you can all get to. I guess I would city bike up the West Side Highway.
+
+[16:21] Okay. Because you don't have to return the city bike. Oh, yeah. You better get the key though, because if your cell phone's down, the city bike things won't work. I don't care if I'm out four hundred dollars for nothing.
+
+[16:31] It's not again. You have to unlock it. Oh, yeah, no. Oh, that's true. Yeah, I lost my view.
+
+[16:35] Yeah, so like the thing is is that uh you know the the the real issue, the the fun part about thinking about this stuff is is that when when the when the S hits the fan is that New York has like three or four ways to get out of it and they will be a ruined. You know what I mean? Like they will be so I mean it takes me an hour or just really hard to cross if you're in a boat. Uh in a rowboat? Up above Manhattan.
+
+[17:02] Oh, by Spoit and Duval? Yeah, yeah. I hear it's hard to that the the currents there where the kind of Hudson and the East River kind of meet and come around there. It's not the Hudson there, it's whatever, the Harlem, whatever. But like uh yeah, I hear that the currents there can get like there's the old legend of the person trying to cross that in the boat in spite of the devil's boy and double and then the boat gets kind of wiped out.
+
+[17:22] But uh that may or may not be apocalypse. Told that story when I was a small child and I still remember. But I'm told that swimming in these rivers can be difficult. And in fact, the currents in the East River were, I think, some hard enough that they put a prison on there without walls during uh, you know, the 19th century when it was Blackwells Island, and you know, they just assumed most people wouldn't swim off. Yeah.
+
+[17:45] And it's not that far away. You know what I mean? Like you look at it style, like, I could swim that. Yeah, no, no, no. I could definitely kayak that faster than my slow friend.
+
+[17:52] What? They currents go both ways, right? And that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:56] Yeah, yeah. Uh so I was on the internet doing research for people asking me, you know, questions for here, and I saw one of those sites, and I don't know why I go into these clickbait things. I hate it, where they're like 60 pages, and to in to get to the thing that they say, you have to click like 8,000 times, and then the web page moves up like a half an inch, so you accidentally click on an ad. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, where they purposely load the ads like a half second later, so that when you go to click on it, the page just moves, and it's like, I don't need that.
+
+[18:24] Anyway, so like one of it was like unhealthy drinks that you should never have. And this was on liquor.com, so they should know better, right? Liquor.com should know better. And they said the daiquiry is a drink you should never consume. And here's what they said, Matt.
+
+[18:38] Piss me off. They had a picture of a real daiquy in a coop, right? A an honest to God, like rum, lime juice, sugar, shaken, daiquiri. Looks like it was made with a standard two ounces of booze, normal sized drink in a regular like five ounce coop. Uh, and then underneath that, which is by the way, a drink you should all feel good about consuming if you consume alcohol, is uh this drink will not get you in your bikini bottle.
+
+[19:09] Thank God, no one wants to see me in a bikini. Uh, similar to the pina colada, wrong. Similar to the pini colada, first of all, it's wrong. The daiquari is often made from a sugar-filled pre-made mix. This is just against and served in a huge goblet.
+
+[19:24] This is not even what they pictured on their freaking website. Then they say, you know those famous frozen daiquiries in New Orleans, which are not daiquaries, people. A 20-ounce to-go cup will average you a whopping thousand calories. A 20-ounce drink is over four normal freaking cocktails, people. Well, average you a whopping thousand calories, half of the recommended daily calorie intake for an average person.
+
+[19:49] Well, then don't order, that's like saying, oh, hamburgers are bad because if you go order a 30-pound hamburger, you know, with 18 buns and like double grease, then it's bad for you. That is not a daiquiri. And for liquor.com to say that a daiquiri is don't order giant format drinks. They have the same argument with margaritas. They're like, uh, well, a regular margarita, you know, whatever is fine, but like the margarita you're thinking about comes in a bucket.
+
+[20:19] You know what I mean? And also what I hate about those bucketized margaritas is that they're not stiff enough. I want a shorter, stiffer drink where I can taste the freaking booze, right? I'm not saying I want to consume more booze overall. I'm saying that when I'm drinking a cocktail with booze in it, I'm not just there to get the Crunch City as fast as possible.
+
+[20:40] I want to taste the booze. Like I like the flavor of the stuff. Damn it. I can't believe these liquor.com people would write something like that. I was so pissed.
+
+[20:48] When I saw that it was, I thought it was like one of these like crap hole, like, ma'am, eat healthy, eat this one thing, and melt off all of the fat websites that you always see on the side of everything that you do. But it was liquor.com. Mm-hmm. That hurts me, Stas. It hurts me.
+
+[21:06] Happy New Year. Oh, so you know how uh in the uh we spoke, I think only once about our trip to China and our uh our uh, you know, three-star three-star with Nastasia in a hoodie and flip-flops kind of a situation. Um free Michelin stars, by the way. Not that a Michelin star means what it used to people outside of Europe. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:26] Do you agree with that, right? Michelin Star is not the meaning of it isn't the same across the world. Uh-huh. Did you hear, did uh you hear someone told me that Jiro uh got knocked down of all the stars? Not because of the food, but because they updated their definition of what you need to be three-star in terms of I think reservations.
+
+[21:45] I think because they don't take reservations anymore. Michelin's was like, We don't get three stars if you don't take reservations. You know? But anyway, put out he's like 94, his kids are in their like 70s, and they still have never run a restaurant. So sad.
+
+[22:01] Yeah, we'll be sad when dad dies. Anyway, so uh for those of you I've uh said it uh a couple of times that I was super interested in these kind of Chinese street crepes foods called Jianbing. Uh but I started my Jian Bing experimentation. Now remember, for those of you that are gonna scream, appropriation. I'm not trying to make authentic many people many people.
+
+[22:27] And rightly so, I'll say, uh, for a lot of reasons. Uh, but uh I'm you know not interested in I'm I mean I'm interested, but uh I'm not attempting to do any sort of authentic the way I operate is this when I go see somebody do something and I taste it and I watch what they're doing, and then I taste something that is not like I've tasted before. I've had other variants like that, but the one that this one lady made on the street, I was like, I really like the texture of what she was doing. So and kind of how it operated. And you're also wearing what she was wearing, so that's what I'm saying.
+
+[23:00] What do you mean? I was wearing home. That's what you're doing. Oh, at home. Yeah.
+
+[23:04] It's true. I was wearing her outfit. I took pictures and no, no, I didn't do that. Didn't do any of that. Uh I didn't do any of that.
+
+[23:12] None of that. Uh by the way, when you're at home cooking, so in a kitchen, uh in a work kitchen, if someone showed up at the kitchen wearing like open-toed shoes, be like, get out! Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[23:26] But at home, do you wear shoes when you cook? No. I mean neither. Isn't that messed up? Often I my standard walk around the house is to walk around the house in socks.
+
+[23:36] I'm a sock person. I like to wear socks. You know what's I hate? That's why I get so bent when people spill water in the kitchen and don't clean it up, because then because I'm the one who's normally working in the kitchen. So if they're doing it the sink, and then like the kids love to somehow like wash their hands and then just walk away dripping like like freaking the swamp creature or something.
+
+[23:55] You know what I mean? And then I step in it with my socks. Hate wet socks. Hate wet socks. But when I think about it now that I'm thinking about it, which I haven't thought before, s very stupid to cook in a I mean I cook with oil and all kinds of things that will completely mess up your day if they spill on your feet.
+
+[24:13] But I don't cook in in shoes at home. And what do you what I wonder what people in the chat room do? Does anyone when you cook at home, Matt, do you put shoes on? Absolutely not. Huh.
+
+[24:24] Yeah, me neither. But you know, maybe I I don't I don't like I don't like wearing shoes in my house, and I don't like other people to wear shoes in my house, although I don't force them to take them off, except my kids. But like, yeah, but I, you know, it's weird. Like maybe I should have some Mr. Rogers style slippers.
+
+[24:41] But like hard slippers. Uh for Christmas, my wife got me elf slippers. There are fewer people running around your kitchen doing things too, though, than in a real kitchen. Like the chance that you bump into someone and they drop a knife or they drop oil on like I I do think it's legitimately a less dangerous situation. Well using the same dangerous objects.
+
+[25:03] I get it. Like hot oil is still hot, a knife is still sharp. But I would imagine that many of the situations that come up with kitchens are about like miscommunication between two individuals who happen to be in the same place at the same time. Or high-intensity situations are you moving fast. Which you know, I do at home.
+
+[25:22] You don't do that at home shows? Not like in a real kitchen. But like, for instance, you would never cook shirtless because if you do something like bacon, it's gonna sh throw that thing of grease. Why would I ever cook shirtless? You wouldn't, I'm saying, but I'm saying, like, the shirt is a piece of protective gear.
+
+[25:37] Although Jordana said she cooks shirtless. Mistake. Mistake. Huge mistake. Yes.
+
+[25:44] You know what I mean? Huge error. God, just a mistake. Um anyway. Like, you still, though, shouldn't, if you're gonna wear shoes, don't you should wear sensible flats.
+
+[25:58] You know what I'm saying? Anyway. Uh, maybe I should get some kitchen slippers. Is that too goofy? No.
+
+[26:04] I have them in Connecticut. And do you cook in kitchen slippers there? Yeah. Why? Because the floor is cold.
+
+[26:10] I knew it, because the floor is cold. It is unpleasant cooking on extremely cold floors. Anyway, how do we get to- Oh, Jam Bing. So uh to refresh, so uh when I look at somebody doing something new, it's not that I want to then go make the authentic version of what they do. Although I do believe that you should travel around and eat uh various versions of things made by the people who actually do it right, because if you're following a recipe and making things based on your own knowledge and intuition, it's hard to get radically new textures, radically new flavors, radically new ideas or presentations because you're always coloring the words of the recipe or the idea through your own idea of what things should taste like before you even finish.
+
+[26:58] So you'll make corrections early on in a recipe that will affect the end of it based on what you know in your head, rather than waiting for someone who does it a different way than you do to make it all the way through and taste the results of what they have done, which is why you should like YouTube is very helpful for looking at other people in other places making things the way they make them, right? And it's a good check once you've gotten back from somewhere to look at other people's techniques to kind of brush up, especially for things like cutting fish, making crates, making noodles, any of these kinds of things. Um but that's no substitute for having gone and tasted various things that people make and judging kind of what you like. That said, I'm when I see something new to me that's interesting, it's more I'm more interested in what the results are that I can use for you know my own ways of cooking, how I can add I you know techniques to my repertoire than I am in trying to recreate something that somebody else is doing, because you know, I think that's where you get into the kind of shadier aspects of of uh, you know, white white man making other people food kind of a situation. But so to refresh you if you didn't listen or don't remember on what this particular now there's various so the Jian Bang is translated usually as like a Chinese crepe, it's a street food, um, right?
+
+[28:25] And the thing is is it can be made with variety of different batters. Uh some people say the original ones were with millet, which is you know a small grain millet uh flour, and then millet flour be mixed with you know nowadays regular wheat flour, um mung bean starch, which is what I used, uh, and we can we talk about it. So there's various different things, very many different ways to do it, but in general, it is a crepe with some eggs, usually with uh some sauce on it, uh, and then uh with cilantro typically, or other kind of sometimes with green onion that you uh cook and you fill with crunchy crackers, which some people use like fried wonton skins or the moral equ moral equivalent, and some people use the Chinese cullers that you would normally uh get in like a congee or something like this. So, anyway, so the lady I saw, what she did was is that she used, I believe, a mung bean uh based on the texture of what she was doing, among beanslash uh uh white flour mix, which is what I ended up doing here, and she would take the she used a French style crepe maker and a French style raplette, which is the crepe uh make spreader, which other I saw other people just using boards to do it on the street. But the lady that who I who's I like the best, she used a an actual raplette, French style raplette.
+
+[29:42] And uh so she put the batter in the center, went around like a crepe, didn't look so good. I thought she had bad skills, it was I was wrong. Then cracked a whole egg on top of before it cooked through, right after she had done the initial spread with the replet. By the way, for those of you that never made a a crepe, when you're making crepe batter, uh French crepe batter, a lot of the recipes tell you you need to let the stuff stand. Because the French crepe batter has in it, um, I haven't made it in a long time.
+
+[30:09] Eggs, butter or oil, uh, flour, uh, and I I think I use water, I don't think I use milk. And they're very thin, but you have to let it sit for a long time after you make it, so that uh, and I think that's mainly to get the kind of bubbles out. So when I need to get crepe batter on the fast, I typically pour the crepe batter through a fine strainer that gets out any lumps because you don't want a lump, because if you have a lump in a crepe batter, when you're pulling the raplette around, it will grab that lump and make a huge tear through your crepe, and you look like an like a like a butt head, like an a-hole. And if you don't let the if you don't let the um the batter sit and all the air come out, the first couple of crepes you make won't be very good because they they won't have the right the right texture and they won't have the right spread because the air is still working its way out of the batter. Anyway, so if you pour through a chinois, that'll one get the lumps out, and two, it will break a lot of the fine air bubbles so that you can use a crepe batter right away.
+
+[31:07] You're welcome, crepe people. Anyway, so she did what I thought was a bad job, but it turns out that this stuff doesn't spread nearly as well as a as a it has a different kind of consistency than a French kind of crepe batter. She then cracked the whole egg on top, used the raplette to wipe the just the white around, and it was awesome to look at because you see the yolk like running around like a like a video game, like a Pac-Man, like going around as she's like wiping the raplet in a circular motion, getting the egg white to kind of wipe evenly, and then cracks the yolk with the raplette and then wipes the yolk around. So now your three layers your mung bean, your mung bean flour, your white, and your yolk. Here's the things that she did that some people do that not everyone does.
+
+[31:44] She puts sesame seeds all over it. And she didn't put the cilantro or the green onion on that side, which some people put the green onion on that side. And then she flipped it and that starts cooking, then the sauce, and then this, and then the crunchy crackers. So immediately when I saw this, I'm like, what would I what would my kids like? So I came home, I made uh the batter.
+
+[32:08] The batter I use is uh 50% uh mung bean flour, mung bean starch, uh, which is sometimes translated, I think, as green bean starch. Anyway, mung bean starch, you can get it at your local Chinatown, I mean at my local Chinatown, uh, and it's you know cheap. It's nasty though, it comes in these packages. Like only an idiot packages starches in double bags. So I cut the first bag, and then the inner bag isn't sealed right because I guess the machines that they use can't seal the bag with all the starch everywhere.
+
+[32:39] So the the inner bag has already been leaked, so there's like all this starch on the outside of the inner bag inside the outer bag, but you still have this like nasty bag, so then when you try to just pour it out, it just sits on the bag, and that inner bag is that stretchy plastic, you know what I'm talking about, Stas? That like kind of semi opaque, stretchy, disgusting plastic that like stretches so much before it breaks. So then you're frustrated, and this stuff is getting everywhere, and it's on your hands and on your pants, because you've already done this on your pants, and then that it it it like, then you're trying to you're just trying to be like, you don't want to go get scissors because you have this bag in your hand. You don't want to put it down because you don't want to get starch all over your counter, but your scissors are all the way across the room, so you're like, I'm just gonna tear it, and then like the bag is just like stretching and stretching and stretching, and powder's getting everywhere. Do you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[33:24] Like, anyway, that's what happened. So if you buy this product and you look inside the bag and notice it's a bag-in-bag situation, just put it on a counter over the sink, take an extremely sharp knife and cut through both bags at the same time. Because I was just like, I've had enough of this packaging material. On the side, you ever notice uh the things that kids don't understand about cooking? Uh so, like, for instance, like my kids love to measure flowers and liquids on one side of the kitchen and then carry them in the measuring cup over to the other side of the kitchen to put them where they belong.
+
+[34:03] I know they should be using a scale, but they follow knucklehead recipes that are written in cup measurements. Anyway, alright. So, like, but I'm like, yo, kids, why don't you, why don't you put that into that measuring cup over the vessel you're gonna pour it into so that you don't get it everywhere? And they're like, uh. And do you ever notice also, like, kids and probably people who don't understand how to get things out of pans in a reasonable fashion?
+
+[34:31] Like, they don't understand how to get, for instance, a sauce out of a pan without spilling it everywhere and without losing half of the sauce. You ever notice this does? You should someday come over and cook with my kids, who are by the way, 17 and 15. I mean, no, actually, I've seen Booker cook at my restaurant. Oh, right?
+
+[34:52] You're like, Booker, tilt it, take the spatula, wipe entirely around the outside so that all the stuff is on the one side, pour it in, use two hands, you know what I mean? Hold it up, scrape it out, scrape off the spatula, put the spatula back in the pan so it's the don't don't hold the spatula over the floor. Don't hold it over the floor. You know what I'm saying? Yep.
+
+[35:17] Dripping, dripping, dripping. Yep. Nightmare. This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. The food service industry faces a challenge.
+
+[35:39] More people are eating out, yet restaurants are losing talent. Why is this? Research by Fair Kitchens reveals a serious well-being issue within professional kitchens. 74% of chefs are sleep deprived to the point of exhaustion. 63% of chefs feel depressed, and more than half feel pushed to the breaking point.
+
+[36:01] This can't be ignored. Fair Kitchens is a movement based on the belief that a positive kitchen culture makes for a healthier business. By taking the pledge to be a fair kitchen, they'll provide you with free information, tools, and resources to help you take action towards making your restaurant more stable, productive, and happy, which positively affects the guest experience. It's time to act now. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com.
+
+[36:33] So back to the jam bang. So I was like, what are my kids gonna like about this? I use 50% uh mung bean starch and 50% uh regular unbleached white flour. I didn't go get special, like you know, bun flour, you know, special bleach or any of that stuff. I just used, you know, I use hackers at home mostly.
+
+[36:51] Sorry, Bob's Red Mill. They don't pay us anymore. So what? I use mainly hackers, which just I don't know why. Like once you start using a brand, you're like, I'll just keep using that brand because it makes I've I'm used to it now.
+
+[37:01] So I use heckers. Uh unbleached. Uh so 50% that 50% unmeasured amount of salt. You know, I use my I only ever use uh diamond kosher, and I use you know what I consider to be quote unquote the right amount. I just add salt to it.
+
+[37:17] And then water. Uh so if if you're using, I use about a one-to-one ratio. So if I'm doing 300 grams of uh mung bean flour and 300 grams of wheat flour, I'll do uh 600 grams of water, blend the hell out of it because gluten's not gonna uh develop, then pour it through a sheenwap. I already told you that secret. But then when you put that onto by the way, if you've never had a crepe maker, crepe makers are awesome.
+
+[37:44] They are so much better than trying to make a crepe in a pan if you're going to make a very large crepe. Because the large crepe requires a an extremely flat surface to use the raplette on, and it's just a it's a whole technique. I really recommend that you use it or get a large griddle where you can do the standard kind of replet stuff, and where you can take a large offset spatula. How big is this, does? Uh 24 inches.
+
+[38:08] 20. So get like a get an 18 to 24 inch, like large, not an offset, but a regular flat spatula to use when you're doing crepe work. I don't know why people use those goofy wooden thick ones. That is a waste of time and energy. Just get yourself a stainless steel, long, you know, how how wide is that?
+
+[38:26] Two? Two? Three, two, two, three inches? Wide. Yeah, uh, long spatula to do your crepe work.
+
+[38:33] Uh pour the more than you think batter because it doesn't spread that well, and pour kind of like around in a circle. Take your replet, which is some of they're like mini squeegeees, but they're made of wood, and then swirl around once. The difference between another difference between this batter and regular crepe batter is that the mung bean uh batter sets relatively quickly. So in a crepe, you have in a regular French crepe, you have a good two, three swirls of the raplette to get it to kind of even out. So you can do like one thing where you get the s the center of your crepe based good, and then another wipe around the edge to move the excess batter all the way out to the edge of the of the crepe maker.
+
+[39:12] And often if you look at somebody's crepes, you'll see kind of you can almost see this kind of dualness in the crepe that they've made if they're not like a super expert, like myself, not a super expert. With this, it's harder to get that second wipe. So you want to get this initial spread a little bit wider and try to do it in only one maximum two turns of the raplette. Crack the egg out, do like I said, do the same thing. The problem with the egg white that I've not fully done yet when you're doing a whole egg crack out like this, is that it's hard to get the thick part of the white to uh spread right because it the thick white wants to stay together.
+
+[39:44] So I'm still working on that. Break down the yolk, bub blah blah, went around, then uh, you know, cracked it, sesame seed, flip, and here's where I made it kid friendly. I basically turned it into like some sort of a uh like a more of a Mexican style thing. So Tex Mex, really. So like then uh sh uh I did a little bit of uh spicy refried bean instead of the instead of this you know classic sauce uh cheese, and then on the meat people I put some carnitas in it, and then instead of the crushed up wonton, crushed up tortilla chips, and that was where I was like, crushed up tortilla chips!
+
+[40:19] Because the whole thing about the Jan Bang, aside from what I really like, the stretchy texture of the crepe, people online have said that they want them crispy, and I had some that were crispy, but the lady who made me the one that I love the most, it was kind of a uh a chewy, kind of flexible thing. Anyway, so crushed up tortilla chips, and then we serve it, of course, with you know, standard like sour cream and all that. And I've made it two, two and a half times. I did a test, and then I made it for two large group one uh once, and it was great. The only problem is is that you kind of have to make each one individually, so you're cooking through the whole thing.
+
+[40:50] You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Anyway, Jan Bing. Jam bang. All right, so we have Australian sundries to taste.
+
+[40:57] Yeah. Yeah. What do we got? Well, where do you wanna start? Oh, by the way, we had a question and we should get to the one question.
+
+[41:04] I think I answered, basically, if you have written in a question and I have not answered me. Nastasi and I got into an argument about whether I Nastasi and I had an argument? What? We got into an argument about whether I had answered all the questions. I don't think so.
+
+[41:18] So email me. I think I have answered all the questions. If it first listen through 2019, then email me. Right. I mean, I know that there were certain ones because we had the salmon people on last time.
+
+[41:32] Yeah, Matt, do you remember that salmon was delicious, by the way. Did we answer any questions last time, Matt? I answered a bunch of questions. You answered some questions, but yeah, like especially the call-in ones. But there might have been questions that were written in that we didn't get to.
+
+[41:45] I don't know. I think I answered them all. I think there were aspects of it. So for instance, like like Wally Gomes wrote in and he said he was gonna uh put a PID, which is a uh, you know, one of the accurate temperature controls whose you know main things. You talked about that one.
+
+[41:59] Yeah, but you know, like w one thing, you know, I I didn't go into super depth about uh about like fryers. Like, so for instance, like he's saying that he was gonna buy a six-liter countertop fryer. Now I don't know whether that's rated in six liters of oil. Six liters of oil would be a lot for a countertop fryer. That's approaching like like good.
+
+[42:20] You know what I mean? But like six liters of total volume means you're only putting like a liter or two of oil in, and that just doesn't have enough thermal mass to act like a professional fryer. You know what I'm saying? So I I think what happened is I answered all of these questions, but maybe in a more cursory fashion than nostalgia's used to. You went through and you were like, blah and blah, blah, blah, and I'll get into it in the next time.
+
+[42:42] Well, I mean well, I don't know what I wanna like for instance. Well also we don't have that much time. So Josh in Somerset's too late because Christmas is over, got a jewel and was doing um a prime rib, and I spoke somewhat about timings on prime rib, but then Josh also wanted to know that if you if you extend a cook for a long, long time, is it gonna get mushy? And I talked about that a little bit, but kind of, you know, not like a lot lot. You know, it's in general to prevent that nowadays what I do folks is I'll do, you know, the bare minimum amount of time at the higher temperature, like let's say for uh prime rib, like fifty-five or so and then Celsius, and then I'll drop it down uh like to the minimum safe temperature, like fifty-two to keep it keep it going for a long time, and that will prevent mushiness in most things, but not in something like uh like fillet, which has no connective tissue.
+
+[43:37] But the we have a so I think I've answered all of your questions. Uh but Eric uh Jason Gros wrote in long time listener, uh don't have anything better to do. Ha ha, of course. Of course. I mean, true.
+
+[43:49] Uh wait, yes, Jason, yeah. Jason from Baton Rouge. I've never never been to Baton Rouge. Someday when I go down to uh New Orleans for Tales of the Cocktail, I have to make some side trips. Never been to Baton Bridge.
+
+[43:59] Going to West Calwell, New Jersey on business. The hell's in West Calwell. Matt, what's in West Calwell? No idea. On business, was looking to head to New York for some free time.
+
+[44:14] And it's first time here. We'll have a rental car. Good luck. Up for suggestions on what to do with that. Burn it.
+
+[44:21] When you get the rental car in New York, light it on fire and say it was stolen. No, he needs it around New Jersey. Just drop it at whatever train station. Take the train in. Take the train into New York.
+
+[44:32] All right. Planning on hitting uh uh Corin, which is a fabulous knife place here. MoFad and existing conditions, what are some other cool places? Uh check out JB Prince, uh DePalo's, Russ and Daughters. Uh who else?
+
+[44:44] Who's got what's a what's a kind of classic New York place, Saz? Thinking. Uh, she'll think here. Also looking to grab a great bagel and uh great pizza. Was thinking about going to Brooklyn uh for uh to uh Roberta's, uh but thinking traditional as well.
+
+[44:59] So I was like, Nastasi and I are both like, well, we don't really we don't like there. Right? There's uh, you know, this is what some people do. So I so Jack, the bartender, uh uh head bartender at at Existing Conditions and formerly Booker Dax, he's one of those people. So he likes scars.
+
+[45:20] You ever uh for slices? What oh Matt, I I heard it, I heard a tongue tick. Oh, well, yeah, because I was gonna say we a bunch of HRN folks went around with Peter Reinhardt and they also landed on scars. Yeah. Scars is a freaking nightmare to order from.
+
+[45:35] But like I everyone says they're slice games on point because you get it right out, and you're not waiting a billion years to get it. You know what I mean? If you can wait online. Go to SCARS when it's not too crowded. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:46] And get the slice right away. I hear that their stuff is best right away. What do you agree with this or no? I have never had scars. The only time I ever had scars, we uh we ordered it, and then Dax walked in there and was on his phone and didn't realize they'd already made the pizza.
+
+[46:03] So it was sitting there for 40 minutes before we even got it into our hands. Then we then walked it home in the rain and ate it. So I'm not gonna go ahead and say that I had a real scars experience. You know what I mean? Uh but anyway, Scars Joe's, which is old school, Prince Street, which is famous for its uh pepperoni thing.
+
+[46:19] I didn't I was not a huge it's so doughy. Did you like you like uh Prince Feet? I don't think I've had it. But the pepperoni is really good. Everyone goes crazy because they have the super super super thick sliced pepperoni.
+
+[46:30] Uh Una Pizza, which is you know the the Neapolitan DOP one that Fabulous and Jeremiah uh worked on before. Uh Roberta's here, obviously, and old timers, John's of Bleagers, Arturo's, but that's like Wayback Machine, as he said. Uh, and then Jack says it'll take your whole day, and I've never been to these, Matt, maybe you have. I know Nastasia doesn't take these kinds of trips. Uh L and B, uh, what's it called?
+
+[46:52] L and B Spumoni, it's called Spumoni. L and B and uh De Faras uh over here, you know, in the in the outer birth. You ever been to either of those places, Matt? No. I have not, but I hear they're good.
+
+[47:01] Uh, if you really want to wait three hours for Lucali, get the Calzone. That's what I'm saying. Or know somebody. Do you know someone there? Yeah.
+
+[47:11] Is it good? Yeah, that I've been there. Is it do you like it? I've never been. I don't wait.
+
+[47:15] I don't like to wait. Yeah, I know you don't wait. You don't like to wait? I don't like I didn't wait. I hate waiting.
+
+[47:19] Anyway. Uh for bagels, I mean, for locks, Russ and Daughters, like clearly, just go to Russ and Daughters. I like the Barney Greengrass, Sturgeon King for their uh locks and and other cured fish. Almonds. You would say omelets.
+
+[47:32] The beer place with the cheese. Beer place with the cheese. The crackers. What, mix Orleans? They don't have bagels.
+
+[47:39] No, no, no. Oh, yeah, go to Mixorle's, but go before the uh finance D-bags show up. Uh you have to try an Essa, I guess, bagel if you're going uptown, like absolutely. I don't know who's got the best. I've never been to my land, and I haven't been to uh I haven't been to the what's the name of the uh Theresi place again that does the bagels?
+
+[47:57] Oh, yeah. Sidels? Sidels. Is it good? Yeah, that's really crowded.
+
+[48:02] And not where it's going, yeah. Don't go. There's plenty of good bagels. Like, if I were you, I would get a New York style bagel when you're in New York, and then go to Montreal to get a Montreal style bagel. Oh, let's leave it there.
+
+[48:12] And then go back to Jersey. Oh, when you're in Jersey. Oh, yeah, you're gonna say the mozzarella, right? That's right. Go to Hoboken.
+
+[48:20] There's a bunch of different ones. Oh my god, what's the name of the one that I that in Kensington that I really that's really good? Massamos. Has great mozzarella and it's off of the mozzarella trail, so not as many people go to it. Uh in um in Hoboken itself, which is mozzarella.
+
+[48:40] Good luck parking, by the way. But in Hoboken itself, uh, I like, I believe it's called MP Bianco uh Bianco Manos. Bianco Manos? Bianco Manos. Yes.
+
+[48:50] Yeah, MP Bianco Manos. Great mozzarella. Uh oh in the hoboken style, which I appreciate. They want you to make a they make them in these long kind of Rapunzel-like braids, like long, and you get it by the pound chopped off. They're not in like balls, like you would think of it.
+
+[49:06] Just get like a hunk of it. Get like some crusty bread. Don't bother making a sandwich. Bring some fantastic oil with you, because I don't know that they'll have any fantastic oil, and just just go to town. Just all you need bread, salt, mozzarella, maybe some tomatoes, although it's not that time of year to get the good tomatoes.
+
+[49:23] Get the semi-dried. So if you go to Di Palo's, get the semi-dried tomatoes, the little ones, like the they're like semi-dried cherry tomatoes. Those things are on point. Uh all right, now. Uh what?
+
+[49:33] Oh, we gotta taste this stuff. Should we let's taste this stuff? Okay, what do we got? What do we got? Okay, first one.
+
+[49:37] This is from the brain surgeon, right? Yes. This is called cherry rape, so I guess you can have just a little bit. I uh I've been taking shots at that. I mentioned I mentioned uh power sockets last week, right?
+
+[49:47] Yes. Yeah. I think you'll like it. Yeah, what's it? So what is it?
+
+[49:50] So it's cherry, dark chocolate, and coconut. Yeah, it looks like coconut. I like made by Cadbury. I really like it. You like it?
+
+[49:59] We can't both eat the same kind. It kind of tastes like now we both have something in our mouth. So Matt, you have to talk. Uh, this is delicious. Man, I can't believe how good this candy is.
+
+[50:09] We'll save you some cheeses. Okay, now what? That's very good. I enjoy that. Turkish delight.
+
+[50:15] By the way, I think it's always fun when you go to another country to taste their candies. Because it usually everyone's got their own kind of candy bar. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. This is interesting.
+
+[50:25] That does not look like a Turkish delight, though. No, it's covered in chocolate. It's covered in milk chocolate and it's a lot denser than a normal. So I'm gonna let Nastasia eat it. Is it rose flavored?
+
+[50:36] Yeah. Like Turkish? So it's it has that actual, and it's called Turkish Light. Alright, well, I'll eat it. I'll eat it.
+
+[50:43] It's not that. I don't really like that. Next. Well, you you you talk while I eat this one. Next, let's go to the water.
+
+[50:50] Yeah. I like I like locum though. So here's some wattle seed. I don't think we can eat this though. But it's cool.
+
+[50:57] So wattle seed comes from an acacia plant. There's a bunch of, which is a in the in the in the bean family. It's in a in the leguminaceae family. Um lot of beans are poisonous, so you gotta get the right uh a lot of bean plant trees. So for instance, like one that's toxic in the U.S., it's used as a and this is also used as a cocoa and a coffee substitute.
+
+[51:18] It's good. One of the ones that's used there in America. Remember when we tried to do this was the Kentucky coffee tree. I found some Kentucky coffee trees on Roosevelt Island. I brought the beans into our old lab and we tried to roast them.
+
+[51:30] We did all that work to make them not poisonous, and then we tasted it and we're like, this sucks. Oh, there's kind of like a session button thing in there that I don't like. There's probably well, there shouldn't be in this in the Tasmanian thing. I feel it on my tongue. Yeah, because you just tasted this.
+
+[51:44] I did not try this. Did you inhale it maybe? No. Because the wattle seed is a lot of times used in um so I read on the internet, so I've never done this. This wattle seeds was a little popular here for a while.
+
+[51:56] Um some guy puts it into their espresso machine and brews it as a tea in the espresso machine and repression. That you should do that. On the wattle seed? Alright, so this is Australian bush pepper, which I believe is the same as Tasmanian pepper. Now, this stuff I find creepy because you'll eat it and you'll be like, oh.
+
+[52:15] And then 30 seconds later you'll be like, oh, and then like another 10 seconds you're like, ah, because like it's got one of these slow build burns on it. I don't like that. We use this at the bar. Well, this is a blend. So it has other things in it other than that.
+
+[52:27] We use this straight stuff in the bar. Um for a drink, but you gotta be careful with it, like I say, because oh, she's uh washing it down with just some Cadbury milk. No, well, I we don't need to taste this. And this has crunchies in it. You have crunchies.
+
+[52:39] I'm not really all right. So here's what I'm gonna taste. Wait, no, do we need this too? Those are from contestants. So this is Australia.
+
+[52:44] So apparently, Bundaberg rum is the rum of Australia. Really? Yeah, it's like the most pop 10% of the entire country drinks Bunderberg rum. It's it was founded in like 1888 as a way to get rid of all the molasses from the sugar cane that they grow in Australia. And this stuff is like, this is like the legit Australian like swilling rum.
+
+[53:08] Like people drink that I've never had it. You? Nope. Do you like rum? Mm-hmm.
+
+[53:20] That's me drinking it. It's a little lower proof than ours. It's as low-proof. Underproof. Underproof.
+
+[53:25] Yeah. Well, it's at 37, but they it's at 37 there. It's good. It's relatively. It's relatively, you know, relatively.
+
+[53:36] You're gonna smell like your Uncle Ralph. No, like my Uncle Rick. Oh, yeah. Uncle Ralph, what does Uncle Ralph smell like? Uncle Ralph smells like smoke.
+
+[53:49] My Uncle Ralph, the pit boss, former pit boss from Reno. And I haven't seen Uncle Ralph in years. Ever since uh ever since my Aunt Sandy died. He's being written off the rest of the family. He's written off the rest of the family.
+
+[54:01] He won't get in touch with us. Anyway, uh thank you, brain surgeon, our brain surgeon. He gave us some Kentucky honeys. Yes, Kentucky honey, bourbon creamed honey and a toasted pecan cream honey. That sounds delicious.
+
+[54:12] We'll just put them in pancakes. You put them in pancakes. You do it! Pancakes. That's what it says.
+
+[54:18] Both of them. By the way, I cook giant pancakes, people. For those of you that don't know, if you've never had a giant griddle and you've never been able to cook a giant pancake, I cook a giant pancake. How big is this, Nastasia? 18.
+
+[54:33] That's the size of my pancake. Because that is the exact size. So like what you do is I take my crate maker, my gas fire crate maker, which I'll talk about how much I love until until the day I die, and uh, and I put an aluminum foil splash rack all around it for when I flip these giant things because there's still some liquid batter on the top when I flip it. Giant splash rack of aluminum foil, and it's got one of those poof like one of those like you know, explosion lines of like grease, butter, and b batter all around it so that it's easy to clean up. And then you pour it over the whole thing, and then I flip it with a bread peel.
+
+[55:08] So I have like a I have a stainless steel, like a pizza peel, like similar to the one they use here, and you just go underneath it, and it's like whew, bam! And the noise that the giant pancake makes when it hits. And also it's so nice because I can feed a family of four with one pancake. It's like one thing, done, in, out. New pizza cut it.
+
+[55:30] Yeah, pizza cut pancake.com. That's the new business. Oh, okay, that's okay. So for this week, uh, I wanted to bring in a book that is not that old, but uh I think was really important, and you know, people should read it if they don't still read it. Um, maybe they do, but I I don't hear a lot of people talking about it anymore.
+
+[55:51] So this week's first one of the new year. Um by the way, Nastasia met and I also met separately. Anyway, so like Nastasia met a rare books dealer and I met a rare books dealer, uh in you know, who specialized in food over the you know, the Christmas and New Year's parties and whatnot. So we should see if there's any interest out there on the in uh in you know out there on the internet, but we would like to have like rare book experts come in with some classics in the field and then maybe some sort of maybe some sort of jello wrestling match. I don't know.
+
+[56:28] I mean, we'd have to move the books into the booth, Matt, so that the books wouldn't get jello matched. Yeah, no, we want to keep that jello in there. Also, every single classics in the field that I've done so far are books that I personally own and not books that I've read on the internet, and they're books that I've actually brought into the studio. But if you guys want me to also review ones that I don't actually own because they're too expensive, I can do that. Just let me know.
+
+[56:52] But this week's is uh Cooking by Hand by a guy named Paul Bertoli. Paul Bertoli uh started cooking uh at Shea Panisse, the you know the famous, you know, Alice Waters restaurant, Shea Panisse, uh in San Francisco. Uh was it San Francisco or is it Berkeley? I can never remember it. Anyway, it's out there somewhere.
+
+[57:10] There over there. Uh I never got to eat there. You ever been there? Nope. I didn't mean there.
+
+[57:13] Uh in the 80s, I think, in the early 80s. And he worked there and actually wrote uh with uh her the first uh Shea Panese cookbook and then started his own restaurant uh called Olivetto, which closed in 2005 and now uh has Fromani. You know Fromani, the uh major yeah. Yeah, he has Fermanni, which is what he's doing now. But by the time he wrote this book in cooking by hand in 2003, he'd already been kind of at the top of the professional game for over 20 years.
+
+[57:45] So what I love about this book is that it was written in 2003. Well, is that it's written by someone who's already had decades of experience really doing the stuff that he's talking about under his belt before he wrote the book. And although all of the individual chapters in it kind of have been uh, you know, handled in much greater depth and much much more recently, right? It was the first time that you could see in print uh like n like in a in a in a for normal consumption print. In the same way that like the French laundry cookbook was the one of the first modern cookbooks that actually told you how a restaurant did all of the crazy things that it did.
+
+[58:27] The reason French Laundry Cookbook was so crazy that anyone wrote it or that anyone bought it, was because they were telling you how to do things the way they actually did at the French Laundry. So the assumption was you were never going to be able to do it, but they told you how they did it anyway. Similarly, in cooking by hand, uh, you know, Paul Pertoli tells you how to, and I've never met the guy, I'd like to meet him. Tells you how to cure your own uh Salumian sausage and did so way before uh, you know, not way before, but before like the you know, original uh Roman Pulson charcuterie book came out. And you know, tells you how to make your own uh balsamic vinegar, and by that I don't mean some BS version, like he's like, first you gotta go get 15 different barrels made out of different kinds of wood and molding in Italy.
+
+[59:13] Then you gotta start. So at the beginning of this chap, just to give you an idea, at the beginning of the um balsamic vinegar chapter, he starts it, and the the other thing about it is that his his writing, assuming that he does it, his writing is just so good, kind of makes you want to cry. At the beginning is a picture of his infant son and himself, and it starts out, letter to my newborn son. And he says that when he was two months old, he got six separate boxes full of barrels from a friend in Italy, and he started his son's vinegar when his son was born. So this was you know, probably in 2002, so that stuff's already got like you know 18 years on it.
+
+[59:54] So think about it. You're supposed to do that in Italy, like if you're a maker, like you birth your kids' birth years. Yeah, and so like he does it, but he tells you actually kind of how it's done and and walks you through it. And you know, at the very beginning, you know, he says introduct introduction. Good cooking is trouble, so I am told, says Elizabeth David.
+
+[1:00:14] And but then he doesn't get bogged down in like quoting, he's like, I don't even remember, I couldn't find where she said it. But he goes on to say stuff like the trouble with cooking begins when you decide to take it seriously. This raises the question, what does seriously good cooking mean I must do? As long as I have been cooking in earnest, this question has led me down trails full of circles and switchbacks. That's the important thing, switchbacks.
+
+[1:00:34] Uh sometimes taking me directly into the brambles, and the learning never ends. The idea of mastering in quotes cooking now seems like more of an illusion than a goal. And this whole book is uh just uh a discussion of tastes, of eating, of cooking, of what it means to just cook a lot, taste a lot, and think a lot through the lens of someone who's interested in Italian, uh in Italian cooking. And the recipes such that I've tried, although I'm not much of a recipe trying guy, are uh, you know, they were they were good. But the book is an absolute classic.
+
+[1:01:07] You have to go look at it. One of the chapters is called 12 Ways of Looking at Tomatoes. Right up my alley. Right up right up right up my alley. Uh, interesting section on pasta.
+
+[1:01:17] Again, all of these things have been superseded, but just thinking about his uh kind of entire way of looking at cooking and in even on the um individual sections, definitely worth a read. I remember when I first looked at it, I was like, bouge bouge bought. I was like, this is a definite game changer. You know, you have lots of pretty books now, you have lots of books talking about ideas, but I think in 2003, when this came out, it has earned its place as a classic in the field. And it's cooking issues.
+
+[1:01:45] Goodbye. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:02:06] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:02:29] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. This week on Meet and Three, I'm about to go on maternity leave. This is Katie Mosman Waddler, and before I leave you in the incredibly capable hands of Team HRN, we're rounding out season five with a deep dive into the food rules, weird cravings, and overall hype about eating while pregnant. There are a lot of safe foods to eat, and we shouldn't be sort of assuming that just because something is raw, that it's dangerous.
+
+[0:44] I just found myself feeling like there was an alien piloting my body and brain, and uh totally changed the way that I ate. So was it the eggplant? Sure. Why not? I just don't know.
+
+[1:01] Tune in to this week's episode of Meet and Three anywhere you listen to podcasts. I'll be back soon with our newest and tiniest producer in tow. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever a river is pizza bushwake as usual with this hammer lopez. How you doing?
+
+[1:30] Good. Yeah. Got Matt in the booth, how you doing? Do you have a turkey in your throat? I can do it again and again.
+
+[1:38] Um well every time you do it, I'm doing better and better. Play that Wu Tang again and again. Uh listen. Uh how you guys doing? I'm having a great day.
+
+[1:48] Are you? Yeah. Nice. Nice. Uh what why?
+
+[1:53] I got uh I got trainee engineer Jess in the booth. Jess, how you doing? Yell to the people. Awesome. Yeah?
+
+[2:00] And uh trainee, so you are a sound engineer? In training. I mean, get out the microphone. But this is what you wanted. This is in other words, this is you're not a food person.
+
+[2:11] You're more of a are you both a food person and a sound person? Yeah, of course. I'm at Heritage. I didn't get a good look at you when I came in. Do you have the traditional mullet haircut of sound engineers?
+
+[2:22] You know, maybe soon. Gotta go mullet. Matt's never gotten them. We've never had a full-on mullet. I guess because you guys aren't real, like, you know, back of the club sound people like I used to deal with in the 80s.
+
+[2:34] Like if you didn't have a mullet back in the 80s when you were on the boards, no one would respect you. They're like, who's that idiot without a mullet? We could we could incorporate me getting a mullet into some sort of giveaway or um You do not want to rock the mullet. You have such nice long hair. If you mulletized it, then like how are you gonna demuletize it?
+
+[2:51] I can't handle that much party in my life. But no, you'd be restricting the party just to the back. Right now you have an all-around party. Oh yeah, that's right. I already have too much party.
+
+[3:01] Yeah, my my life does feel out of balance. So, Jess, what are what are your food interests other than your sound engineering interests? How did you arrive at Heritage Foods? Oh man, uh I spent a year actually as an au pair in Paris, and I cooked for a family for an entire year. So that was crazy.
+
+[3:17] So is that considered an in like an inverse au pair? I thought it always went to I always hear about Americans getting Europeans. I've never heard about Americans going to Europe. I didn't realize it was a two-sided kind of exchange. Yeah, I don't really know why they wanted me.
+
+[3:31] Wow. It's good confidence you got there. No, I mean in terms of the food. Oh, okay, okay. But you were cooking for them, but had you grown up cooking?
+
+[3:40] Uh yes and no. I mean, like cooking with my family, but nothing crazy. And where in where in France were you? Paris. Paris.
+
+[3:47] Where in Paris? Well, I technically was in the suburbs in a place near Versailles in Vaux Cresson. Oh, that's so not uh that you know what? You know what people don't realize? Versailles is a great place to visit all year round.
+
+[3:59] All year round it's great. Every single season, Versailles is an amazing place to visit. Because if you go in the wintertime, you can see the architecture, not the physic, but the landscape architecture of the park is made clear by the fact that you can see through all of the all of the vegetation. Then obviously in the spring it's amazing. Obviously, in the summer it's amazing, and obviously in the fall it's amazing.
+
+[4:18] It's a it's a four-season kind of thing. Did you go often or were you one of those weirdos who was like, I'm not gonna go hang out at Versailles, the best garden ever anywhere? Um I didn't actually go. But I've I spent a lot of time in Paris. You didn't go to Versailles the entire time you were there?
+
+[4:34] No, I didn't. You did listen, maybe you were turned off by like the by like the giant buildings with all the mirrors. Like maybe that's not your jam, but you didn't go to the garden? Oh, it's amazing. It really is.
+
+[4:45] I just uh, you know, when you're spending all your time with some crazy kids. You know what's a good place to take kids? The garden in Versailles! True, true. Big mistake.
+
+[4:56] Huge mistake. You still have time though. You're still alive. You can go back and visit it. I will.
+
+[5:02] Yeah. So what were you cooking for them? Were you cooking like down home American fare for them, or were you cooking French stuff for them? Neither. They were very strange and really wanted me to just like grill up some meat, steam some veggies, plop some bread on the table.
+
+[5:18] Not fun. What kind of meat were you grilling? A lot of veal. Oh, okay. I like veal.
+
+[5:26] Feels good. Like the like breast, you had to like peel it and do all that stuff and like kind of splay it out flats. Did you stuff it? Like are you doing any of the old school French stuff, or literally just like I'm gonna salt some pepper, some veal, throw it on the grill, and have done with it? Once in a while I would do a fancy thing, but really they never appreciated it, so I would never try to.
+
+[5:46] They were French and they didn't appreciate food? I know. It makes no sense. How were their kids? Just as bad.
+
+[5:53] Wow. Wow. Well, you know. Since they uh I mean, uh, the odds that they ever hear that you're bad mouthing them are roughly zero, so I think it's fine. Yeah.
+
+[6:01] Uh what about you, Nastasia? Anything good happened this week? Anything good food and or beverage uh things? I saw that you found the picture of you cooking all of those chickens. And so you can put that up on the uh on the internet.
+
+[6:14] Oh yeah, I will. Now, I don't want to say nothing, but were the ones in the lower part of the picture like raw and you smashed them up against the cooked ones? Yeah. No, a lot of them are wrong. Because who cares if the Swiss kids get salmonella?
+
+[6:29] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We we re redid it. Oh, I see. You just like you thoroughly renew renewed all of it. Yes.
+
+[6:36] Don't straighten it. It's better with your finger in it all crooked. Give it to people. Nastasia sends me a snap of a snap. It's already, it's what is it, 12 years, 13 years old?
+
+[6:45] So it's already faded a little bit. You know what I mean? And then she just has it all crooked. It's like that's straight up Nastasia style. You can't do it any other way.
+
+[6:52] Chickens, Switzerland. Chicken Switzerland. Dedicated listeners have our have seen this picture recently. No, no, it's a different picture. Different picture.
+
+[6:59] Of Nastasia with the chickens. Yeah. Call in all of your Nastasia cooking in Switzerland related questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. By the way, Nastasia, so I said before, now we'll see whether uh this is all on Nastasia because I'm never gonna get in touch with my uh rare book person.
+
+[7:14] So we can just forget that. Maybe generally because I don't get in touch with people. I I don't get in touch with people. Hard to argue with that. Yeah.
+
+[7:26] But you know who I ran into at the bar last week was uh Matt Sartwell from uh Kitchen Arts and Letters, one of the owners of Kitchen Arts and Letters, and he also agreed to come on the show and do a Kitchen Arts and Letters versions, uh, you know, episode of Classics in the Field, which I think would be amazing. I mean, who better to do a classics in the field than the owner of Kitchen Arts and Letters? Am I right? For those of you that don't know what Kitchen Arts and Letters is, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you?
+
+[7:51] It's like the cookbook store in the United States, as far as I can tell. I visited, and I'm gonna talk about it a little bit later, I forget what it was. In Edinburgh, there was a cookbook store. I don't know if it still exists, this was you know 18 years ago, owned by the uh two fat ladies people. There was an amazing cookbook store.
+
+[8:10] Uh, but in terms of just you know, a cookbook store, you're not gonna find a better cookbook store than Kitchen Arts and Letters. It's just it's just great. And it's uh up in the 90s on uh in Lexington. So if you come to New York, put it on your stop of places to go. Now I know what you're saying.
+
+[8:25] You're saying I can buy these books at Amazon, but and that's true. Uh and I remember the very first time uh I went there, I was planning on buying it at the book I was looking for at a bargain bookstore, but I wanted to see it first because at the time there was no look inside or whatever, so I wanted to go see it. And I realized that that having them curate the selection, the knowledge that they have in that store is worth paying the extra to go buy it from them in person. Plus, plus, they will turn you on to things that you had no idea that you needed in cookbook land. So if you're doing research uh for cooking or you just like good things, go to Kitchen Arts and Letters.
+
+[9:00] And by the way, if you go there uh and you buy I my book is there, uh Liquid Intelligence. If you buy my book there, I gave for them uh a recipe that I hand wrote out uh that they Xerox it is only in the copies of the book you get at Kitchen Arts and Letters. It's my milk syrup recipe, but it's the only place that has been well, not really published. I hand wrote it on a piece of paper and gave it to them. Anyway.
+
+[9:22] You have a caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, uh Nastasha, Dave, Matt, I think, with Jessica. Uh this is Scott from Houston. How are you doing?
+
+[9:33] Good, good. Been uh listening for a long time, working through the back catalog and working my way through uh liquid intelligence. So I appreciate all the work you put into this. Have you gone to UP Preserve and had the cooking of of our good friend Nick Wong? That's on the agenda, but I haven't yet.
+
+[9:47] I loved Undervalley, and I heard on the on one of your shows that Nick Wong was there, and so I was like, shit, I gotta go. Yeah, Nick Wong's good people. Do you like that? Uh do you like the Bon Me shop that he likes? It's called something like California or California or Cali Sandwich?
+
+[10:00] Yeah. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. That's kind of like the chefs go to here locally. There's a couple others I like a lot with that one. All right.
+
+[10:05] Well, you want to call out the ones that you like? You want to you want to give the ones that you like as a recommendation? Yeah, sure. I mean, just Vietnamese food in Houston is amazing just because of a huge Vietnamese population here from the immigrants um back in uh you know 70s, I think. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[10:20] But anyway, uh my favorite Bon Me shops, Cali Sandwich in Midtown, and used to be in the Montrose area, but now up in the heights, there's one called Les Baguette. It's kind of spelled a little weird with a an apostrophe after the bah and before the get. I don't know, but uh you know, Google searching, it's a little bit it'll come up. But um that one's my favorite one because they use like a troffle aioli in it, which is maybe not I don't know that I want truffles in my Bon Mi, man. I hear you, but just you'd have to try it and take my word for it and try it once.
+
+[10:52] All right. I'll try anything once. But I'm not a huge truffle oil guy. No, it's very subtle. It's very subtle.
+
+[11:00] It's not it's not strong. I'm with you. I don't like truffle to overpower things. I mean I like truffles. I like truffles, but yeah, no, no, no.
+
+[11:07] All right. All right. Oh yeah, oh yeah, very much so. Nastasia also skeptical. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:16] What about you know, Matt? What about you? I totally get it. Uh you're vegetarian, crap on it. Do they make good vegetarian Bon Mi?
+
+[11:23] Yeah, of course. Tofu. Uh just okay. What about you, Jess? Uh yeah.
+
+[11:30] Jess, you a bon me person? Of course. Yeah? All right. What do you think about truffle oil in your in your bon me?
+
+[11:37] That sounds wrong. I will try it though. Listen, man. I'm not I I am uh I am a big believer in poo-pooing things beforehand, but still trying them with an open mind. I am not above being wrong on the regular.
+
+[11:51] Same here. All right. Good deal. Well, I'll be listening, you know, future episodes if you happen to try it and want to, you know, give your opinion on the air. I'll be listening.
+
+[12:01] All right, so what was your question? Hey, by the way, truffle oil, good for training your dogs. If you want to train your dogs to search for truffles, truffle oil is a cheap place to start. Now, then you gotta the problem is is once you train your dogs to search for truffles, as I did, I trained major to search for truffles. Hey, there's no truffles where we live.
+
+[12:19] So he wasn't able to find any. But he could find uh in a large yard any uh thing that had had touch uh truffle oil put onto it. Interesting. Yeah. Alright, go ahead.
+
+[12:28] Question. Well, and just to set the record straight, it's not truffle oil in the sandwich, it's truffle aioli, but I don't know if that makes difference. Well, what do you think that is mayonnaise made with truffles? Oil. Right, right, right.
+
+[12:41] But it's not just like the crappy truffle oil you get off a grocery store. It's like you're saying it's not like mayonnaise made with the crappy truffle oil? Well, I don't know. I just know that I don't hate it. All right.
+
+[12:53] It's fine. A friend of mine says he hates mayonnaise. I said, okay, I won't put any mayonnaise in it. How about I just put eggs, oil, and other flavors? He's like, I see what you're doing now.
+
+[13:07] Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. I'm always suspicious when I see like other flavors or something non-specific on the label. Don't get them.
+
+[13:15] Anyway, um, so I have two questions. You can take your pick for time's sake of which one is more interesting to you. Um I'll let Nastassi pick if you don't want. All right, sounds good. That's fine.
+
+[13:26] Uh so number one, I was making really great sourdough for a while there from the tartine process. Yeah, yeah. I have their bread book, and I had a great I made the starter according to the process. It was kicking butt for like four years. My bread was legendary among friends and family.
+
+[13:44] We moved. Subsequently, I made some bread. It was good. I don't know if it was as good as before. And then the starter ended up in the sink, and then things ended up on top of the starter, and it ended up getting washed down the sink, and I cried a little bit.
+
+[13:58] Yeah. Um, trying to start the process. Was it a family member or a guest? It was a combination of blame between well, I'll take the ultimate blame because I put it in the sink to begin with, because I was just gonna wipe off the outside. Uh-huh.
+
+[14:11] You know, it's like that con you know, if the world ever runs out of concrete, flour and water mixed together will be the substitute. So I was just trying to wash that off. Yeah. Yeah, I know I know what you mean. But well, do you what do you keep it in?
+
+[14:20] What kind of vessel did you keep in? Then my wife put stuff on top of it, but that wasn't her fault. She didn't know what it was. I get mad at my kids all the time because but the thing is is that here's what people don't realize who don't cook Nastas, you'll back me up on this, especially in a smaller kitchen. I think you'll back me up.
+
+[14:32] The sink itself, when you clean it out, becomes an area where food prep happens. You'll put a bowl down into it. You'll never put a bowl in the sink to sweep like trimmings into. You'll never put a pan in the sink, chop onions on the board and then swipe them into the pan. Yeah, because your friends are garbage.
+
+[14:48] But like when you're cooking by yourself, you can assume that people aren't going to come and turn the faucet on over the ingredients that you're working on. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. No.
+
+[14:57] No, ultimately, like I said, I'm taking the blame. Strong. Anyways, I have not had much success getting a new starter going. I don't know, and I've used the same process. I used filtered water once and then things weren't working.
+
+[15:10] I was like, maybe I just need to use bottled water and make sure there's no chlorine. Maybe that was killing the yeast. You know, I've I've done it multiple, multiple times. Um and you when I used to make it, it would immediately within the first couple hours start to bubble up and I would it would be like I would use this little Pyrex glass canister or or jar and then like the plastic lid just loosely sitting over it or a dish towel, and then it would like push up to where it was touching what was over, even though it was only half full. It was getting that much volume.
+
+[15:40] Now what which what do they start on? Do they uh are are they the ones that do the grape start? Who like what what's their starter start again? Well, they just do a fifty fifty whole wheat and bread flour mix with just like equal parts water. Um for the for the very start, for the very beginning?
+
+[15:57] For the very beginning, yeah, and then you let that go for two days, and then once you see some activity and it smells a little funky, then you feed it again to kind of you know, you get a funky and then you train it so it's predictable. Right. Who is it that did the grape starting? That was Nancy Silverton way back in the day. Yeah, that's the Silverton thing, yeah.
+
+[16:13] Yeah. Um well, how far away did you move from where you used to be? Or no, that's maybe Alice Waters, but I think she does that too. Um I'm sorry. How far away did you move from where you used to live?
+
+[16:24] I mean, not far. Same basic water supply, I think. I don't know if it's like I mean, most of the yeast comes from the wheat germ, right? Not like what's in the environment and on your hands. Also remember, things change things change over time.
+
+[16:37] How how long did you have that first starter before you got really good at the bread? I mean, honestly, it's n it's all credit to the book and not myself, but the first bread I made with it was fantastic. Hmm. So it's not like it's not like the the 'cause you know the makeup of the starter will it takes a like a a a long more longer than you would think to kind of level out at what it's eventually going to be, assuming that you make bread at the same rate and store it at the same rate and feed it at the same rate, right? But you're saying that you're saying that Well it was very forgiving though.
+
+[17:09] Yeah, but you're well but it but you're saying that it didn't that it's was good right off the bat and then you were just never able to get that result again. But you Well yeah, once I lost that original starter and tried to make a new starter, the new starter just is lazy yeast or something, it's just not doing what it's supposed to do. And I don't know. So here's the weird thing, it gets the flavor. Like the bread I baked from it, even though the s even though the starter wasn't right and everything wasn't looking right, I still was like, Well, let's just bake some bread and see what happens.
+
+[17:37] It it had the great flavor, like the subtle sourness, but not too sour. It just didn't get any oven spring. It didn't rise like while it was proofing and I got no oven spring. There were little holes, but not as much. King Arthur brand, whole wheat flour, King Arthur brand bread flour, all that same.
+
+[17:57] And the temperature of your kitchen is relatively stable, same. Yeah, you know, seventy to seventy-two. And you didn't move, so the humidity is roughly the same. Yeah, same place in Houston where it's just freaking hitting. And you haven't tried to you haven't tried to keep this starter for like a month to see whether it gets more healthy and just like keep feeding.
+
+[18:20] Well, keep feeding it. I've been feeding it for like yeah, for like two weeks straight, feeding it every day. Feeding it, dumping it, feeding it, dumping it, feeding it, dumping it. Right. Yeah, just resorbing like a tablespoon of what was there and then refeeding.
+
+[18:32] Well, you can keep more, it's not gonna get that acidic. You know what I mean? Well, I mean I don't I don't measure out an exact table spin. I mean it seems like you it seems like you need to up you know it seems like you need to up its leavening power, you need to up its yeah its activity, but you don't want it to get too sour, right? So but I think like at your initial now look, I'm not an expert in sourdough, maybe someone in the chat room is, but uh I haven't worked with it in in many years.
+
+[18:54] I I used to keep a starter I kept a starter for years and years, but then I haven't for years. And the the kind of um the level of knowledge around sourdough has gotten much, much greater since I have done it. So I would not consider myself uh, you know, twelve, fifteen years ago, you would have like, yeah, I know quite a bit about sour though. But right now, like not only am I, you know, t twel that many years distant from having done it a lot, but also the people's knowledge of it has increased a lot more since since that time. Uh but uh it sounds like you're just not getting if the flavor is right, it just sounds like you don't have a healthy enough, robust enough um culture in there yet, and that maybe you need to reserve more of it, feed it fresh to get it really kind of robust before you start uh you know pitching the almost the entire thing out and starting from completely fresh.
+
+[19:47] I mean you know it's like you'll change the you'll change the makeup depending on how fresh the medium is, you know, when you add when you when you when you dose it obviously it's gonna change the the makeup of the yeast and bacteria that are in it but you know I think that you're just not you're not vigorous enough. So I would I would not I would keep more of the original until it's hypervigorous and then once it's hypervigorous you can go back to your old kind of routine. Right. So one observation on its behavior that might give you a little insight into what's going on chemically um a difference in you know post-feeding the old starter would rise in volume and it would maintain its relative consistency viscosity pretty well and I could like drag a spoon through it and see all the bubbles and it seemed like there was some gluten development where it would stretch. But now it's just like a puddle of like really it'll start thick like a really thick pancake batter almost to a like almost a dough but then as it goes it'll loosen up and become really soupy and smell kind of sour.
+
+[20:53] So I don't do does that give you any insight as to like the balance of bacteria versus yeast if it's if it's more sour than you're if the other one had I mean it's hard to say but in general obviously um acidity uh reduces gluten strength. So if it you know if you're saying that the other one had more kind of uh kind of a you know more gluten left to it that would indicate to me that it had a lower uh and and the and the current one doesn't and it kind of has a very sour kind of lactic taste to it or vinegar depending like that you're getting a higher acid content in this one and that that would mean you probably have m you know a higher uh um lactic acid uh or bacterial content and maybe lower on yeast that was a guess again I'm no longer an expert in this right okay well I'll I'll go back to square one and or I'll just you know like you said give it a little bit more of the starter and then just dose you know feed it and let it go longer before I refeed and see what happens. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah get it to a place where you like and then and then keep it in stable mode. Right but it as far as you know it is correct that the majority of the yeast that dope say natural leaven is from the wheat germ not from like your hands in the environment right I don't know I haven't done I haven't done a lot of the a lot of the I haven't done any research on it you know you know I've done various wild ferments of uh you know yeast in fruit juices and s and stuff like this but again I've done that much more recently than I have um um bread I usually cheat though honestly and I buy a yeast I like I'm a cheater I'm not opposed to doing that as long as it makes a good product I'm a huge cheater I mean, like, you can buy like really good, interesting, well, in the in the brewing area, you can buy like immensely awesome yeasts you know. Yeah um okay I don't know about I don't know about bread baking.
+
+[22:59] I don't know if you can buy like super awesome yeast. But most people are like, I want the yeast that grows in my house, even if the yeast that grows in your house is not good. What if what if you have a house that with bad yeast? Yeah. What if your terroir doesn't want you to bake bread?
+
+[23:13] My new house is maybe my new house is just not yeasty enough. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. People are like, I want the terroir of where I live. Maybe, most likely, where you live is not good for what you want, right?
+
+[23:25] You know what I'm saying? Like, like it in upstate New York, like, unless you like it's good for some things. Squash, onions, great. You know what I mean? Like, but like, you know, certain things aren't just aren't going to be great there.
+
+[23:36] You know what I'm saying? Maybe your house is one of those places where the yeast is just not great. In which case you can cheat. Just cheat, add yeast, or break into your old house. Right, right.
+
+[23:47] Break into your old house. Yeah. Wait for the new owners to go on vacation. Okay. Right?
+
+[23:53] Right. You know where you know whatever window is the bad window that doesn't lock properly, right? We all do. We all know which one that window is. Break in there when they're on vacation.
+
+[24:04] Do a starter. Get what how the hell are they gonna know? They're not gonna know. By the way, I did not recommend on the radio that you break into someone's house. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[24:15] Sounds a lot like you did. All right. Okay. Well, I will not be breaking and entering, breaking any crimes, but um, you know, if they open the door and uh let me in. That's another alternative.
+
+[24:28] Just give them 50 bucks. Be like, hey, here's 50 bucks. Keep this on your counter for a couple of days and give it back to me. Right, right. Yeah.
+
+[24:35] Or maybe I could just go to the bakery down the road that makes pretty dang good sourdough and just ask them if I can have a small amount of their starter. Yeah, they might do it. Depends on the attitude. Why not? Well, it depends on their attitude.
+
+[24:46] Some some bakers are like, I remember there was a pizza place I used to go to back before pizzas were good, right? And they had a decent oven at the time. And uh I said to him, hey, you know, I'm interested in kind of you know how your dough works. He's like, I'll sell you the dough because you don't have the oven. There's no way you're gonna make a pizza like me.
+
+[25:05] So I was like, okay. And then, you know, he gave me the dough. You know what I mean? So it all depends on the attitude of the baker. Yeah.
+
+[25:13] Well, they once gave me a whole bunch of pastry crust without even asking questions when I needed to make some beef wellington. So yeah, seemed like they'll be game. Alright, cool. I'll give it a try. I'll let you know how it works out.
+
+[25:22] Yeah, let us know how it works. Twitter you or something. Alright, cool. Uh Zev wrote in, but he wrote it all. No, he didn't write all in caps.
+
+[25:31] My machine put it all in caps. Imagine if your name was Zev all in caps. That would be kind of that's very Cher already. Very what? Cher.
+
+[25:39] Did she write her name all in caps? Nastasia almost spent a weekend at Cher's house. Let's not talk about that. I've told you so many times that there's things you can't talk about in the world. That's all I said was you almost spent a weekend at Cher's house.
+
+[25:54] I didn't give any specifics. That's too much information. It could be any share. We don't even know which share. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
+
+[26:01] There is only one share. There's only one share. I got in a huge argument with someone about Cher the other week. Because huge huge argument. Because I I think, and I'm probably wrong about this, but she was a very early use of the creative auto-tune.
+
+[26:18] Right? And then this person was like, Yeah, but Cher's, you know, yeah, Cher like always auto-tunes. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Cher's got an amazing voice. Cher does not need the auto-tune.
+
+[26:29] She used auto-tune as like uh an artistic tool in like a very particular era of Cher, late Cher, I have to say. And I think to good effect, I enjoy those. Do you enjoy those Cher songs, Sastasia? No. You like her earlier stuff better?
+
+[26:46] Do you like her back in the Sonny Bono days? Uh I like her, like when Half Breed, is that Sonny Bono days? When did they they broke up in the 70s, I think. I don't know. The many eras of Cher.
+
+[26:59] Cher great, right? Everyone likes Cher. If you don't like Cher, best not to talk about it. You know what I mean? Anyway.
+
+[27:05] Zev writes in, not about Cher, about books. I'm buying a gift for a produce enthusiast and considering a fruit or vegetable related coffee table or otherwise entertaining reference book. I know Dave has mentioned several times on the show a series of vintage books. The catalogs, fruits and vegetables of various regions, not various regions, New York. But I can't recall the publisher or the name.
+
+[27:35] That series is uh the fruits of New York and the vegetables of New York. And it's put out by the New York, uh, the New York State Agricultural Experiment Station, N Y S A E S is the publisher. But uh they were put out between 1905 when Apples of New York was put out and the 20s. Now listen, do you live in New York? Because if you don't live in New York, or if the person you're giving the gift to doesn't live in New York, right?
+
+[28:00] They might not want a book that's about New York, but you can find the Apples of New York happens to be the best known one in 1905, two volume, small. Also, also not coffee table book, a normal-sized book. Uh, if you want coffee table size and you want to go with that series, you can go on the eBay. I looked this morning, and here are the things to search for. If you just search Fruits of New York, it'll only look up small fruits of New York.
+
+[28:23] But there is the grapes of New York, the plums of New York, the cherries of New York, the peaches of New York, the pears of New York, and the small fruits of New York. Now, the grapes of New York is normally the most expensive of the lot. Not sure why. I guess because we grow good grapes. For whatever reason, that's become one of the more collectible ones.
+
+[28:42] Many of them are available for under $100. But really, and I looked on the internet, that's true on eBay. But you know, if your person's not from New York, mm, I don't know. Uh the other thing is that uh I up until a couple of years ago, you could buy new copies of the vegetables of New York from them, the sweet corn, I believe, but I couldn't find the the source on the internet. The Cornell completely changed their internet setup, and I wasn't able to navigate through uh to find any more.
+
+[29:11] But I have to thank you, Zev, because I have the entire series, and I had all three, uh I had three of the four vegetables of New York, the small things that came out afterwards. I was missing only one, only one, the peas of New York. And I had had a search for years, for years to get the peas of New York. And this morning when I went to go search for you to see whether or not I could uh get a good price on the fruits of New York, there were not one, but two copies of the peas of New York uh that were up for sale. And because they were two copies for sale instead of one, the price went down, and so I was able to get one for less than 50 bucks.
+
+[29:49] Boom! Boom! Boom! I'm now own them all, stuckles! Yeah!
+
+[29:55] I'm now own the entire set. Busted! No one can say I don't. Thank you, Seth. Jesus.
+
+[30:03] Can I tell you something terrible that happened this morning? Sure. I had a call, like a random call, and I decided to pick it up. It was a debt collector. Oh jeez!
+
+[30:12] Go ahead. For my old restaurant, right? And it was Pasta Flyer. Yeah. And it was uh like for workers' comp 15K.
+
+[30:19] The guy's like, I'm gonna reduce it. Wait for workers' comp insurance? Yeah, it was like an audit. They accidentally mailed us a check for 15K and said, here we made a mistake. And if I know you, you cash that sucker right away.
+
+[30:30] Put it in the LLC, and then they're like, oh, that was a mistake. We need it back, but whatever. Anyway, so then the debt collector's like, we're gonna reduce it to 9K. I lost my mind. I lost my mind.
+
+[30:40] I wish I wish I could have been there and people I there's nothing better than Nastasia feeling wronged on the phone. We should talk about yesterday. Anyway, so uh so the guy's like, you know, he's not he doesn't give a crap. And uh and at the end of our conversation, I said, Do you like being a debt collector? And he said, It's a job.
+
+[30:59] I've been doing it for 26 years. Everyone hates their job, right? But we can't all win the lottery. And I said some really bad things, and I said, I love my job, and then I hung up on him. Aww.
+
+[31:11] That's the feel-good part. Well, yeah, but like that's just so sad, you know. Hey, listen. Yeah. Like I remember, I mean, I remember a tow truck truck tow truck drivers, too, right?
+
+[31:25] Because there's there's tow truck drivers that help you. There's tow truck drivers who what they do is they go to the side of the street and they help you when you need help the most. These are tow truck drivers that you that you know, the this is an honorable job. Do you know what I mean? And then there's the new Haven tow truck operators who just go around the city towing cars that uh that the city has said hasn't paid their parking tickets.
+
+[31:44] This is not an honorable job. No. So do you consider it similar to a debt collector? No, I think debt collector is the worst. And they're also like, we'll just pay it now.
+
+[31:58] And I'm like, I'm not worth that. Where am I getting this money? You know? And also, I mean, so did like, did you just I passed it on to the people that need to do that? Did you just hurl obscenities at them?
+
+[32:09] Uh no, I said, you know, I go crazy. Did we talk on air about you threatening the life of a UPS worker? Yes. Yeah. What about yesterday?
+
+[32:19] Yesterday my internet was out. Oh my God. Yeah, and I called the guy and he's like, we can't get anyone there till seven. He ran through all these tests. He said something's up with it.
+
+[32:30] I told him I was gonna buy a flight just so I could use their Wi-Fi because it was better than structural. And he was like, go ahead. There's nothing like impotent anger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really agree with you.
+
+[32:40] Then I called you, uh, you were asked me a question, and then you were like, You just said the thing, and I and all of a sudden I realized it was plugged into the wrong thing and it worked. Yeah, because uh all it takes is caring about solving your problem, it turns out. Which this dude couldn't muster. He couldn't muster caring about it. Uh, did I tell my favorite kind of debt collection story?
+
+[32:59] I don't know. About the car? Uh I don't know, no, probably not. Oh, yeah, if you don't know the story, then I haven't told it on the air. So uh years ago, uh when I lived in New Haven, I had a car.
+
+[33:10] It was a complete beater. It was a I I forget which era this was. I think it was my 76 Pontiac, Bonneville, uh, that huge car, huge car, amazing. Uh, 10 miles to the gallon. I I bought it for 400 bucks.
+
+[33:22] I love that car. I ended up spray painting it gold and zip tying a uh uh a cow skull to the front. Love that car. Uh anyway, so uh I used to get parking tickets regularly in New Haven, and of course, you know, I didn't have any money at all, so I didn't pay them. This is back when I had just graduated from college.
+
+[33:41] This is back when Jen and I um we were living together, and literally we would buy one pound of bacon and make it last all week as a flavoring meat. You know what I mean? Because we didn't have the money to, you know what I'm saying? Like, we would eat only like beans, flour, and rice. We would figure out different ways to arrange beans, flour, and rice.
+
+[34:00] Yeah, you know what I mean? We allowed ourselves one six dollar bottle of wine a week. You know what I mean? It was like that, you know, that was kind of how you lived, you know what I mean? And uh, so anyway, so I wasn't paying my parking tickets, and they towed they towed my car, but I thought someone had stolen my car.
+
+[34:16] So I went to the police station or whatever it was in Town Hall in New Haven. I was like, okay, listen, uh, you know, uh my car, my car was uh, you know, my what was it? Oh no, no, no, it was worse. I went, I was like, my car is gone. I assume they had towed it because of the parking tickets.
+
+[34:35] This is what happened. I assume they towed it because of the parking tickets. So I went to the place where they towed the cars, and I said, Where did you tow my car? And she's like, I'm not gonna tell you where we towed your car. I'm like, what do you mean you're not gonna tell me where did you tow my car?
+
+[34:47] She's like, I won't tell you where your car was towed to until you pay all your parking tickets. I was like, I was like, that is cold. That is cold. Like, I need my car. I don't really have the money to pay these parking tickets.
+
+[34:59] You won't tell me where they towed it to? She's like, Nope. I will not tell you where you we towed your car until you pay the parking tickets. So I've got how much money in tickets. It was like that was like 150 bucks or something like this.
+
+[35:10] It was a lot at the time. You know what I mean? To me. And so I paid her the money, like 150, 200 bucks. I paid her the money.
+
+[35:16] I was so pissed. I was like, okay, where did you tow my car? And she's like, we didn't tow your car, it must have been stolen. Oh sick. Also, that person loves their job.
+
+[35:29] Oh, yes. I just hate the attitude of wouldn't it be nice if we could all win the lottery someday? Like, I hate that. I hate that. Yeah, don't wait to win the lottery, people.
+
+[35:37] Just win it now. Just win it now. Uh that's that's gonna be uh, oh, I bought a t-shirt on the internet. Uh I like they should that should be a t-shirt now. Like, just win the lottery now.
+
+[35:50] Just do it now. I bought a t-shirt with a slea stack on it. Do you know who what a slea stack is, man? Yeah, no, that's not like who did we call that? Well, there was that Democratic candidate whose name was C-Stack, which sounds a lot like slea stack, and then we called another person who looked like a slea stack, a slea stack, and then there used to be that haircut that I would call the slea stack haircut that was popular like three or four years ago, and it comes back every once in a while.
+
+[36:14] But I think about slea stacks, which is a land of the lost character, more than the average person. And so yesterday, Jen, my wife and I were making fun of the can candidate C-Stack, so we we were looking up slea stack again, and I saw someone like the internet. I hate how they monitor my feelings. But they gave me a they they put up a slea stack t-shirt that was like 15 bucks. I was like, you know what?
+
+[36:37] Okay. And I never buy things that are marketed to me on the internet ever. But I was like, slea stack. I have to give a I have to give a um an advertisement. Okay.
+
+[36:48] Claire wants to know. Claire? Wait. Okay. If there's anybody that wants a life coach out there to let her know.
+
+[36:59] She's she's like she wants to be the life coach? No. Oh my god, Dave, don't. Okay. Dave, I think you should sign up.
+
+[37:07] No well, look. If you want to be coached in the gentle art of the vegetti. No. If you want a career change or you want Claire to be your life coach. Now, for those of you that don't know, Claire.
+
+[37:23] Friend of the show, Claire. Claire was the person who wanted to know how to jam various things into her vegette properly. One. Also wanted some advice on how to officiate a wedding. Yeah, that was that was memorable.
+
+[37:40] Yeah. And then what was the other one that she did? Uh for a girl who's watching her figure. Yeah, but there was another one. Count chocolate.
+
+[37:49] Yeah. There's a whole host of things. Like, we should have just a Claire subsection of like oldies but goodies on in our archive. So just broken up into peace, like, you know. Yeah.
+
+[38:03] She's like, hi Dave, do you miss me? And you're like, oh. So yeah, anyway, so like if you're looking for that kind of a life coach, go ahead and reach out to Nastasia at the same place that you would send a question, which by the way, is Lopez.nastasia at gmail.com. Oh, uh, Zev also wrote in PS. I just got a Sears all for my birthday.
+
+[38:22] Uh, the number one use so far has been melting butter on toast. That's a good idea. Yeah. I've never done that. That's a good idea.
+
+[38:27] Thanks, Ev. Again, thank you. It's a second time Zev has helped me out in one day. Uh, not the most sophisticated application, but as someone who doesn't have a patience to let the butter soften up before spreading it, it's a godsend. Who has that kind of patience, Zev?
+
+[38:40] Who the hell can wait? Some people keep their butter out, right? So uh a piece of uh equipment that the people used to have was a butter cloche, right? So the some people just have the butter, the uh the the butter tray with the lid that you leave out, right? You ever do that, Sus?
+
+[38:56] Uh no, I don't. Anyway, but the idea is is that the problem is is that because of the air exposure, it can become rancid. So they used to make these butter cloches where you'd have a little bit of water, you'd pack the butter into the into the top of the bell, stick it in the water, and then it wouldn't go rancid because it was the equivalent of the sealed, but it would stay at whatever room temperature, like a wine cellar's actually not a wine cellar, but a wine, you know, McGillicutty is a good place to keep it. Uh what's a McGill cut? You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[39:18] Wine fridge. The little wine fridge. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
+
+[39:24] So or or like someplace cool, like not in the top shelf of your kitchen, which by the way, I've said this many times. I'll say it again. Get on to a stool in your go to your kitchen, get on a stool, uh, if you have high enough scenes, get on a ladder, and notice how much hotter it is at the top of your kitchen than down where you are. Especially if you do a lot of cooking, the air at the top of your kitchen gets very, very, very much hotter, like 10, 12 degrees hotter. So if you have fragile flavor-related stuff, store that stuff lower in your kitchen rather than higher in your kitchen.
+
+[39:59] Just a little, just a little little note, little note for you. Uh anyway, but the but butter cloche, so I had one, I was like, Booker, because Booker doesn't like Booker likes to spread the spreads butter all over the stuff, but he mutilates everything, mutilates it, and uses a lot. So I I got the cloche. I had soft butter. He's like, I don't like it soft, I like it hard.
+
+[40:19] Whoa. He likes his butter hard. Weird. Really weird, right? Your son, your son is strange.
+
+[40:23] And it shreds the hell out of a pancake. Hard butter on a pancake is like, please. You know what I mean? Yeah, that preference is just wrong. Right?
+
+[40:29] Some preferences are wrong. Speaking of uh the kids, uh Booker is really at this by the way, Booker and Dax's birthday today. Oh, wow, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh they turned 15 and 18.
+
+[40:41] And Booker has become truly offended by the shut up dad. I but I told him I'm not gonna erase, I'm gonna keep it for posterity, but I'm gonna have to change his ringtone away from Shut Up Dad because he's like, it makes me sound mean. Well said it then, huh? So uh Dax has requested tonight his uh the the cake, the sherry cake that I've talked about on the show a million times, where I can't tell you all the secrets or my mom will kill me, but it comes from Sunset Magazine, and it involves adding a um packet of uh instant lemon pudding to a yellow cake mix and sherry instead of milk. Uh that's all I will say.
+
+[41:20] It's you know, it's the best box cake situation. And I grew up on it, yeah. And and and from that has stemmed my love, which to this day is maintained of Harvey's Bristol Cream Sherry. Like, I just like the flavor of it. I don't go and drink it.
+
+[41:35] I'm not like, you know what, Jen? I'm gonna bust out and get a glass of Harvey's bristle cream sherry before dinner. I don't do that, right? I could, like, I could drink it like that, but I don't. But uh, I have a love for Harvey's Bristol Cream Sherry, and I think it has a bad reputation just because of the 1970s, which is unfair.
+
+[41:52] Which is unfair. Uh wouldn't you love to see these two servers get in a cage match? Oh, uh Mr. Midriff, who's the other one? The other, the other one.
+
+[42:01] Also with midriff? No, but Battle of the Midriffs? Alright, wait. Question from the chat. Yeah.
+
+[42:07] Can we do this? Sure. Zach C. Uh first, went to MoFat over the holidays. Great exhibit.
+
+[42:12] Chef. Eric made some superb chicken and was an excellent storyteller. Give that man a raise. Actual question. I can't do that, but actual question.
+
+[42:22] I went to Sicily recently and fell in love with almond granita. I've been trying to recreate it at home, but can't maintain the frozen texture. I've been using two to two to nine unsweetened almond paste to sugar to water. I stir it frequently in the freezer. It will have the right texture for about 30 seconds when I pull it out, but then quickly melt in the brutal heat of Palermo.
+
+[42:46] It would last for five to ten minutes. Okay. Do I just need to up my sugar levels? No, listen. Listen, listen.
+
+[42:52] The Italians, the Italians want to tell you that everything they do is natural. All of those gelatos, all of those frozen things that they make are doped with unbelievable amounts of uh stabilizers, right? So it's like it's like everyone's like, oh my god, Italian, they're frozen treats is so they must be all natural because they're Italian. No, no. It's the same way that like Italians think that Americans are alcoholic because we'll have a cocktail, but we'll like you know, neti pot a whole bottle of wine.
+
+[43:24] You know what I mean? It's like they just don't seem to think about stabilizers as being bad things to use. Stassi, back me up on this. Yeah. Now, I don't know that they use stabilizers in uh in Palermo for this, and I don't know the recipe, but uh I mean think about this.
+
+[43:42] If you up the sugar content, right, you'll decrease the freezing, uh, you'll decrease the freeze. It should stay, it should melt faster if you if you increase the sugar. Because they asked about increasing the sugar, right? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[43:54] If you increase the sugar, you increase the melt rate, right? So, like in general, like the problem with low sugar recipes is that uh they're too hard, in fact. You know what I mean? So uh my guess is if you want to do it and you don't care about being fake or whatnot, I would make a gel-an fluid gel, right? Uh low acyl gel-an fluid gel with the water, right?
+
+[44:19] Uh, then blend that, then blend into it your sugar and your almond paste, and then make it from that, and it'll never melt. It'll just get less cold, right? You'll churn it, it'll get the right texture. Uh and be the reason I say gel-an is because gel-an has a uh you could also add some uh some thickener. If you add guar to it, it will uh it will get chewy, right?
+
+[44:44] Which is an effect I noticed years ago when I was making uh ice cream like all the time at the French Culinary Institute, and I made that chewy cellp Dunderma-like ice cream, which was a mixture of guar and um guar and gel-an. So if you use guar uh as an additional thickener uh just to get the viscosity up, then you'll get some weird, I like them, but weird textural effects. But uh just a straight gel-an fluid gel, if the texture of it's already good the way it is, will um definitely stop the meltdown. You might want to add a little bit of a thickener just so that uh just to give it a little more body. It's up to you.
+
+[45:21] I don't know how much body the almond paste is giving to it, but that gel-in fluid gel is gonna work. And the good thing about gel-an is that you're using very, very small amounts of it, uh, and it's relatively freeze thaw stable compared to agar. So uh that's what I would do. What do you think, Matt? Sound okay?
+
+[45:38] Seemed right to me. All right. Aaron writes in about uh from Oklahoma. Uh greetings from Oklahoma. Love the show, and I've been listening since approximately 2012.
+
+[45:46] I brought some Pectanex, SPL from Modernist Pantry. What? That one. That's not a midriff. That's like uh, I don't know what kind of suit that is.
+
+[45:53] But usually. Uh what'd you say? I said usually. Oh, and should be some sort of cage match. Yeah.
+
+[46:02] Uh do they still do cage matches? I think so. They're still the the um, what's that called? But in in MM MMA, is cage match still a thing? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:11] But is it any different from a regular match? I mean, like how do you decide the person's d out? I think they don't they have to tap out? I don't know. Matt?
+
+[46:19] Matt? I have no idea. Jess, you still there? This show is the closest thing I get to experience to a cage match. Locks us in a shipping container.
+
+[46:28] Who would win? You would win. No, depends on the one. You would totally win. Oh, Nastasia would wipe me out.
+
+[46:35] Depends on what you said before. It depends on it depends on the on the sentence that was said. Yeah, you could you could dope this room with a sentence that would set her off, and then we would all die. Or vice versa, you could set me off on something. And then and then I just, you know.
+
+[46:54] It's it's the question is which one of us is gonna be in a blind rage. That person would would win, I think. Right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:04] Um, uh, I bought some Pectanex SPL from Modernist Pantry. So far, I've tried it with grapefruit, orange, and tanglo. Tangelo or Tangelo? Tangelo. Tangelo.
+
+[47:14] So says California, so say we all. Uh I followed this procedure. Peeled and separated the segments, covered with water, added 1% total weight of Pectinex, uh, stored overnight in the fridge, rinse and dry segments. You could you don't have to do it overnight if you do it, if you don't refrigerate it. And I would you can if you can add a little more, you can speed it up.
+
+[47:34] Anyway, the results were good, but I thought that the grapefruit and the orange flavor was a little watered down. The tangela was very good. Did I get lame citrus or should I expect some loss of flavor to the water I'm soaking in? Any other tips for this procedure would be appreciated. Thanks, Aaron.
+
+[47:48] Okay. So uh what's going on here now is you're doing the supremes, and you can look, not the band, the like the segments of fruit. So if you go on the uh cooking issues, and uh you can still search this one, I think, uh, and you look up like citrus supremes, you can kind of see the technique. The amazing thing about the pectin X is it eats the um it eats all the white, so all of the albedo and the connective tissue between the segments and makes fundamentally supremes of citrus, except you haven't cut through, so like the the classic way of making supremes of citrus is to like is to peel the whole fruit and then cut in between the membranes with a knife, but when you're doing that, you're cutting all of the little like vesicles, right? And so they leach out.
+
+[48:35] When this is done properly, you haven't broken any of them. And in general, the water that's left over is it's got a bunch of melted uh albedo in it, which is the white, but doesn't have a lot of flavor. So I don't think you're leaching that much flavor. So for instance, when you clarify with pectinx ultra uh ultra SPL or um uh or pectinx SPL, when you clarify orange juice with that, you're taking out a lot of stuff and you're losing a lot of the flavor. But in general, the idea of uh doing the supremes is if you're not penetrating the actual flesh.
+
+[49:07] If you penetrate the flesh, the actual vesicles, then you'll wipe out the pectin on the inside. The the hope with the supremes is is that you're not doing that. So maybe you're soaking too long, and I would taste because you can, I have the the soaking liquid. And if the soaking liquid doesn't taste a lot like oranges, and you're probably not leaching out that much flavor. There is some flavor and some bitterness in the whites, but the question is does it taste less intense than a hand cut supreme?
+
+[49:35] That's what you should do. So my guess is that you probably have uh some lame citrus. That's just my guess. My dad and I made lemon cello, orange cello, and a mix of stuff over Christmas. Uh well, how long until it's ready to 90 days.
+
+[49:50] How many days from now? Well, Christmas. How much sugar did you add? Uh zero. You add that later.
+
+[49:57] Add it later. But you're gonna so like and is orange cello a thing? Yeah. And then we did a mix of grapefruit, cumcrouts, oranges, and myer lemons. You grow Myers?
+
+[50:06] Mm-hmm. Do you like Meyers? I've never become a huge Meyer fan. I need to get back on the Meijer bus. I can send you some.
+
+[50:13] Yeah? Mm-hmm. Do you think Meyer lemons I've never had one in a store that I love them that much? Do you think they need to be fresh? Really, really good.
+
+[50:21] But in order, do you think Myers are one of those fruits that like when you buy it in a store and it's been on a truck? Yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same. So it's not like a lemon which tastes okay in a supermarket. You think of Meyer, you need to have the tree.
+
+[50:33] Yes. It's really good. Very good. All right. All right.
+
+[50:36] Well, are you gonna have him send you some and we'll taste it on air? I'm gonna go out there in March. So yeah, I'll bring some. And you as you have you and your dad made this before? No, first time.
+
+[50:46] My mom the whole time just bitching us out. Really? Why about what? Who knows? It's got that extra savor from the why was she why would she don't know.
+
+[50:56] Every about everything. Anything we were doing. Well, why? Because we don't usually do the stuff like this, you know. Yeah, but So what?
+
+[50:59] I mean, it's not harming anyone. What is your father doing this for? Is he trying, you know? What? I don't understand.
+
+[51:13] Like, he has a new hobby, and she's like, F that. Why? I don't know. Why can't the man have a new hobby? Okay.
+
+[51:25] Dave, do you have this uh Haggis question coming up? Yeah. He's asking again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[51:33] It's the last question. And it leads into what would have been a yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good. I got you. Okay.
+
+[51:38] I got you. Uh Jen writes in uh from North Carolina. Longtime listener from Milwaukee, appreciate your Milwaukee love. We gotta go back there. Yeah.
+
+[51:51] Yeah. Gotta hit some nails into that stump. Yeah. You know, I have a stump at the bar, but Don won't let me use it. And then I brought it upstairs after New Year's, but we didn't have any nails, and then Donald's like, you have to throw this away.
+
+[52:02] I don't know why Don hates the stump so much. Why does Don hate the stump? I don't know. He knows it will eventually be a little bit more. Is that the one from Harvard?
+
+[52:09] What? Is that stump from Harvard? No, the stump from Harvard's in my house. That was hollow. There was a uh there was a yellow wood tree that fell down in a church in Harvard, and they chopped while we were there, and they chopped it up, and I was like, I want that stump.
+
+[52:24] That's when Harold McGee almost got taken out by a banana peel. Yeah, you remember that? Yeah. It's like like Harold McGee, friend, friend of ours, not just friend of the show, but friend of ours. Like, we've stayed at his house, like, we've known him for years.
+
+[52:38] And Zoltar at the party, and yet to this day, all these years later, Nastasia's favorite fact about Harold McGee isn't what he's accomplished, or that he's like, you know, a really sweet guy, or any of that. Even his sonorous voice is not what she likes. It's that walking, uh walking towards Harvard Square one day, Harold McGee literally stepped on a banana peel and started the full and somehow caught himself without falling. But just that she saw the full the godfather of food science is taken out by a banana. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[53:14] And she saw in her mind eye, so his heel did leave the ground. Yeah, but in her mind, in her mind's eye, she saw the full like arms, one up, one down, one leg up, one down. McGee on his back. He could own that place. Alright, well, Nastasi and I have this lifelong dream.
+
+[53:34] Do you think about winning the lottery? Our lifelong dream is showing us up at some place and getting horrifically injured. But then as we're in the air, it's not that we're doing it on purpose, we're not that kind of person, but as we're in the air, we're like, I own this place. Like, give me a Disneyland. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[53:50] Or the Apple store. I'm gonna they're gonna slow, I'm gonna get like just so other people can have that. I'm just gonna start seeding the Apple store with banana peels. Yeah, one in downtown Brooklyn has a Whole Foods right there, so the chances seem higher. Easy, easy.
+
+[54:05] By the way, Nastasi and I we did a shoot. All I needed was bananas, she ate them. We went. Oh, Christmas. Yeah, Nest.
+
+[54:13] I need to come out. I've we we started shooting a commercial for the cocktail cube and another one for Spinzall, but we didn't have time to put them out before Christmas. We should put them out anyway. Put him on anyway. This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens.
+
+[54:29] The food service industry faces a challenge. More people are eating out, yet restaurants are losing talent. Why is this? Research by Fair Kitchens reveals a serious well-being issue within professional kitchens. 74% of chefs are sleep deprived to the point of exhaustion.
+
+[54:47] 63% of chefs feel depressed, and more than half feel pushed to the breaking point. This can't be ignored. Fair Kitchens is a movement based on the belief that a positive kitchen culture makes for a healthier business. By taking the pledge to be a fair kitchen, they'll provide you with free information, tools, and resources to help you take action towards making your restaurant more stable, productive, and happy, which positively affects the guest experience. It's time to act now.
+
+[55:19] Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. Jen writes in longtime listener from Milwaukee. Okay, currently living in North Carolina. I buy these bars. They're these, they're they're bars.
+
+[55:35] They're like the fig bars, right? You can you get the picture up on your phone so I can you can read the ingredients. From a juice shop. Uh I love them, but my cheap butt wants to she used the A word, but you know, family show. But ass is a donkey, so I can say that, right?
+
+[55:50] Uh, my cheap ass wants to make them at home, but a key ingredient is maple flour. What the heck is that? Uh, see a picture of the ingredients to prove that I didn't make that up. So let me see uh let me see that. It's the Village Juice Company Figgy Bar, and the ingredients are oat flour, fig, maple flour, coconut, date, vanilla bean, water, and pink salt.
+
+[56:13] And it is raw plus vegan, gluten plus dairy plus soy free net. What's the net mean? I don't know. What does net mean? I don't know.
+
+[56:22] Soy free net. Soy free net. What is that? Anyway. Oh, wait, maybe I think I know what happened.
+
+[56:28] They were gonna put net weight and then up there. Okay, okay, okay. I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I looked this up.
+
+[56:34] Uh I didn't read the part that said it's raw, but uh here's the thing. So uh it used to be, and I'm assuming that they mean actual like flour from a uh a maple tree. It used to be back in the day. I remember in the well, way, way back in the day in the 1800s, people would adulterate bread all the time with wood flour, right? Because wood flour is free, they needed to get rid of it.
+
+[56:58] They wanted to bulk up the bread, so they would bulk up the bread with wood flour. Uh so that used to be a thing that people did. Um then they stopped doing that because people got upset that their bread was being made out of sawdust. Uh, but then in the 80s, when I was a kid, uh I remember uh they used to they came out with uh low-calorie high fiber bread, and I read the ingredients on it while I was a kid at the Grand Union in Englewood, New Jersey. So because it was then it had to be 1981-82, and I said, yo, dad, what is cellulose doing in this bread?
+
+[57:29] And he goes, That's there for idiots. And then that was it. So we never bought it. So in the 80s, they used to have this cellulose doped bread for fiber and for low calories. And then I think that fell by back by the wayside again.
+
+[57:41] Uh so it could be that they're just adding literally ground up wood flour, but uh the more charitable uh interpretation is they're using the inner bark of the maple tree. Now, the inner bark of trees, usually pine trees, is uh an often used ingredient in, for instance, the north of Scandinavia. So you can look up a lot of recipes for um bark breads uh that use kind of the inner part of pine bark, and you can look on the internet and a lot of people use it. And I did find that maple bark, sweet maple bark, especially, uh, can be used, the inner bark, not the hard part, can be dried and powdered and used as a uh kind of flour substitute, but I've never had it, so I don't know what it's like. The only uh I mean, obviously we all use bark, but we're use in things like cinnamon.
+
+[58:30] Uh I use hickory bark to make hickory bark syrup, uh, which we use at the bar, but these again are using a different part of the bark. So I'm assuming that uh that they're not just adding ground up sawdust to it, that they're probably using the inner bark of the maple, but I was not able to find a supplier for it, so maybe they have a hookup somewhere in North Carolina. We gotta go, Dave. Haggis uh Devin the Dude writes in, Dave, I have an this is I'm gonna read this just as is. Dave, I have a nice big clean bung that I'd like to pack with some nice meat in order to make a haggis.
+
+[59:08] I had questions about this. Okay. What's your questions? Well, I whether whether that was intended. Uh, yeah.
+
+[59:18] Yes. Okay, okay, okay. Any good substitutes for the traditional lung component or any thoughts on making haggis in general, it'll be my first time. Uh okay, so what is haggis? For those of you that had like, you know, I don't know, don't know haggis.
+
+[59:34] I don't know. For those of you that don't know haggis, uh, what it is is it's a mixture of uh pluck, sheep's pluck. Now, the pluck is that whole agglomeration of stuff that comes out of the the top of an animal when you kill it. So you're talking the hearts, the lungs, and the liver. Like that whole McGillocutty there is the pluck, right?
+
+[59:55] And so what it is is it's the pluck cooked, right, in what they would call like a metzel zip, but like a like a butcher's soup cooked, right? Pulled out, you chop up the hearts and the lungs. And the interesting thing about the lungs is it's got like a nice kind of a uh a sponge, spongy texture to it. You chop up the hearts and the lungs, you grate the liver, then you mix that with oatmeal and some of the leftover broth from that process, onions and like, you know, sage and thyme and all of that kind of good stuff, spices, salt, uh, and then you pack it into uh a sheep's stomach. Now, a sheep's stomach is actually the forestomach because uh sheep's also a ruminant, so it's only got uh an opening on the on the one side, right?
+
+[1:00:37] Now, if you buy a cow's stomach, it's called a bung. So when you're talking about a cow, you're not actually talking about its butt when you get the bung normally. When you talk about a pig bung, you are actually getting the butt end of the big intestine of the pig. See the difference here? Anyway, so uh if you have the the bung, if you're using uh uh, and I believe also in sheep, when you're getting the stomach, I believe the cecum, that forestomach, may be called a bung.
+
+[1:01:02] I don't know, because I can't really buy it here. So you stuff it in, and here's the trick when you're stuffing it in. You gotta stuff it in. Uh, you don't fill it up all the way because you're putting uncooked oatmeal into it. And the oatmeal is supposed to swell up and you know, absorb the the juices that you mix the thing with and take water from the outside stuff that you're gonna boil it in, and the meat, it's gonna swell up so that if you you gotta get the air out, but you don't wanna fully fill up the bung, because if you do, right, you're going to uh it's gonna explode on you.
+
+[1:01:32] It just won't won't work. So, and then you boil that sucker up and you serve it with uh mashed uh neeps and tatties. Now, uh interestingly, uh you can't get lung in the US, and you haven't been able to get it since I think the 20s. You can make friends with uh oh, you need suet too. You need suet to mix up with it.
+
+[1:01:51] Uh I had a friend who was a butcher back when I lived in uh in the garment district, and he would get me illegal lung. Uh so you could try to get a source of illegal lung, but if you can't do that, I saw someone that recommended tripe because tripe also has a spongy texture, so you might want to substitute tripen. It's not gonna be exactly the same, but it could give you some of that spongy stuff. Now, in weird, I was gonna use this as a classics in the field someday, but I'm gonna use it just for this for weird haggis recipe. So haggis is one of those things that's awesome and really can be, you know, it's just it gets a bad rep, but same way that scrapple does, any form of starch, whether it be oatmeal, uh buckwheat, groats, ground up, or cornmeal, mixed with cooked meat and broth, then chilled and then sliced and fried or heated up, is gonna be delicious, right?
+
+[1:02:44] It's got the gelatin, so it holds its shape, it's got the starch, so it holds its shape, it's rich from all of the meat that's in it. It's just inherently a good product. But they all get a bad wrap, right? Which is why I've always said that scrapple should just be marketed as polenta plus. If you just marketed scrapple as polenta Plus, people would buy it, don't you think, Sas?
+
+[1:03:04] But people in the in Philly love scrapples, so you don't need a people in Philly, but people outside of it don't. Yeah. Sure. But they should. It's delicious.
+
+[1:03:12] Anyway, I think of I think of haggis as kind of like a Scottish, almost, it's not really, it's a different texture from Scrapple, but almost as a Scottish grapple. But for those of you that are in the mood for weird, the English, just south of Scotland, in 1880s up to early 1900s, there was a book called The Uh Warren's Model Cookery put out by uh what was the name of the author? I cut her off. Her name was Mary, I think Mary uh Jury. Anyway, she wrote the craziest recipe for Haggis.
+
+[1:03:38] This is an English recipe for Haggis, the most demented recipe ever. Uh take the heart, the tongue. And so she must have misread lung for tongue. I don't know. Uh, or maybe that's what they use in England.
+
+[1:03:49] The heart, the tongue, and part of the liver of a sheep, uh, rather more than half the weight in bacon, which wouldn't be in a regular haggis, and would have been in England the entire cured side of the pig, not just the streaky bacon as we haul it. One French roll, the rind of a lemon, two eggs, a glass of wine, two anchovies, and pepper and salt, and grind all that, mix it all together, pack it into a pudding mold and steam it. And that's their haggis. It sounds like it would be good, but it ain't haggis. It ain't haggis.
+
+[1:04:19] Okay. Breadcrumbs. Well, I gotta do my classics in the field. All right. So for this week's, by the way, uh, and well, we'll get into it later.
+
+[1:04:26] Uh this week, uh, oh I got Classics in the field! Yeah! Uh this week we're doing, I think, one of my all-time uh favorite books. I found it kind of uh randomly. It's James Peterson uh sauces.
+
+[1:04:40] Now, James Peterson uh worked in France in uh the 70s in in you know very famous kitchens in France. Moved back to uh New York in the late 70s, early 80s, and among other places taught at the French Culinary Institute, uh, where he wrote a lot of their original kind of high-end curriculum. Now, uh Peterson has written a bunch of books. He wrote a book on vegetables, book on fish, but by far and away, my favorite book that he ever wrote, he wrote in 1991. It was called Sauces.
+
+[1:05:11] Now, Sauces, when it first came out in uh 91, won the James Beard Cookbook of the Year, and richly deserved it. He's come out with four editions of it. I have the first edition and I have the fourth edition. Now, I'm not saying that the fourth edition is bad, it's not. The fourth edition is a very much larger book than the first edition.
+
+[1:05:30] It came out in 2017, so three years ago, roughly. And it's a good book, right? But I highly recommend that you search out the original uh edition just because, and like most classics in the field, uh that I think are interesting. It not only was it an incredibly groundbreaking book at the time, I found it my copy used at the Strand, back when the Strand just had everything marked at half of whatever its list price was. Uh I probably got it in like 98 or something like this.
+
+[1:06:02] And I found it, and when I opened it, I was like, I don't really know that much about sauces. I mean, I had like Escoffier's book, and so I had read that, but I was like, I don't really know that much. So I took this book up and it is just like front to back, an incredibly thoughtful, amazing uh book. And not only that, like ideas that we kind of take for granted, like an integral sauce versus a non-integral sauce, in other words, a sauce that comes from the meat or product that you're cooking versus a sauce that doesn't come from that. Uh bound sauces versus not bound sauces as a categories, really were things introduced by Peterson in this book, sauces.
+
+[1:06:40] The newer one has all kinds of modernist techniques, which I wasn't as interested in because by the time it came out, I mean that's my job. So like other people's take on my, I mean, not to be whatever. I just wasn't as interested in it. But the other great thing about it is a lot of the things in the original thing, this was written at a very important time in cooking. It was written in the 90s by someone who had come up cooking in the 70s, uh late early and late 70s in France and spanned an era that is now kind of glossed over.
+
+[1:07:07] So nowadays, when you think of, and it was written in 91. So back in 91, people were still looking to France, professional French kitchens as being the height of high cooking. So here in the United States in the 90s, you wouldn't think of an incredibly fancy high-end Italian uh restaurant, right? There was no Del Post, none of those high-end places really existed. They'd existed, there was expensive Italian restaurants, but no one that was taken seriously on a culinary level the way the high-end French restaurants were.
+
+[1:07:35] France was still in professional cooking seen kind of as the apogee of what was going on and had been since basically the French Revolution. You hired yourself a French chef, a Swiss hotelier, and a Viennese uh pastry cook, right? That's what you did because they were like everyone said they were the best, right? So all throughout the you know, 19th century and you know, first half all the way up until then of the 20th century, like French chefs were seen as being like, you know, the French de French. A mere 10 years later, really, the Spanish had stolen the vanguard of what was going on in the high end cooking world.
+
+[1:08:09] And then from there on, from the 2000s on, I would say that in America here, we look anywhere in the world or to ourselves for guidance and not to the French anymore. So this was written at kind of the last point in time when France was the place to look. And it does have a particularly French attitude because that's where, you know, James Peterson learned to cook. But also it spans an interesting part in French cooking. So we tend to think of either modern cooking or kind of old school French cooking.
+
+[1:08:38] But really, it had gone through a whole series of uh a whole series of changes, right? The most famous of which, which isn't, I think studied as much as it used to be, much to the distress of uh, you know, the the people who were kind of my mentors, like Michael Batterbury, but like Nouvelle Cuisine. So Nouvelle Cuisine came up in the um in the 70s, in this in the late in the 60s, late 60s and 70s, right? Uh, which is different from the you know, cuisine mansour, which is like the super light stuff, but it was much lighter than the earlier sauces. But as Peterson points out so eloquently in the introduction to this book, uh, it actually is a change that happened after the sauces had already changed from the heavy flower-bound sauces of like Escoffier's uh era to being more like reduced cream sauces.
+
+[1:09:24] And so there are, and he he does the Nouvelle cuisine sauces, he does the boiled cream sauces and the flower-bound sauces in here. So it's kind of a a transition that's totally been glossed over in modern cooking. And so just for that alone, I love the recipes and the point of view that uh he brings about in this book. And so for a slice in time which has been lost, you must go read the original edition of sauces by James Peterson. I do not think you'll be disappointed.
+
+[1:09:53] Glad this in the field, cooking issues, goodbye. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org.
+
+[1:10:19] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:10:40] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Sherry Bayer, the host of All in the Industry on Heritage Radio Network. I'm thrilled to let you know about Host Summit Plus Social, a new conference for and about the hospitality industry, taking place Monday, January 27th, 2020, at the William Vale in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York City.
+
+[1:11:10] Based on my All in the Industry show, Host, which stands for Hospitality Operations, Services, and Technology, will bring behind the scenes talent in hospitality to the forefront in a live format, featuring guests from some of my most popular episodes, including Juneport, Rita Jamay, Crystal Mobiani, JJ Johnson, and Jeff Gordnier. Our event will include intimate panels, one on one interviews, industry news discussions, curated lunch conversations, and more. Plus, of course, we will have outstanding food and drink throughout the day, including an energizing closing reception. For more information and tickets, please go to allintheindustry.com. And also please follow us at Allindustry on Instagram and Twitter.
+
+[1:11:59] I hope you will join us in celebrating our dynamic hospitality industry. Many thanks.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. Welcome to Processing, a show about the intersection between food and grief with your host Sarah Tingora and Bobby Conforto. On this show, we're gonna really explore where grief and food intersect, how they go hand in hand, different people's experiences with their specific traumas and how food played a part from the beginning to the end of that experience. And how as individuals we uniquely process life's traumas and losses through either the longing for, the creating of, the avoiding of, the obsessing over, and the eating of food.
+
+[0:48] I remember right after Michael died. I still miss him, but I missed him so badly that night that I stopped at the convenience store on the corner and I bought a container of Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia. It's too sweet. You know, it's too everything. And I went home with it, and I took it to bed, and I thought to myself, gee, so this is my first menace à toi after Michael's death.
+
+[1:19] Me, Ben, and Cherry. And I ate the entire thing. What do you think your relationship to food was during times of crisis? I think that um my sister and I use food to reward ourselves. I wish I had something more interesting to say, but definitely like spaghetti and meatballs and chocolate cakes.
+
+[1:39] My mom still can't eat Rugola, it makes her too sad. I've also experienced a lot of loss, as has Bobby, and I think we really wanted to find a way where we could like work together. There's something that feels very compelling about doing a project with you, mom. Um, as just kind of a missing piece in life, and just something we've always wanted to do, but not known quite how. I can't think of anything better myself.
+
+[1:58] I think that I mean, any conversation about grief, I think prepares everyone for grief because there are so few conversations about grief. That's why I think that what you guys are doing is so important. Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Average Radio Network from you know, whenever. To whenever from a birthday's pizza remote rookly.
+
+[2:30] Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. You're good? Mm-hmm.
+
+[2:33] Yeah. You're still dressed in your parka. It's cold. I feel that you have a special pass to wear your Christmas hat. I feel you should have your Christmas hat on.
+
+[2:42] No. Like maybe it's just like a tree hat with decorations. Like maybe it's like timeless for you. No? No.
+
+[2:49] All right. Uh, Matt in the booth, as usual. How are you doing, Matt? I'm doing good, but I've had I had the door open to the studio while you did that. It's just downright frightening.
+
+[2:58] Yeah? Yeah, I've never I've never had the door open before. Yeah. Well, uh, so it's you're like not enjoyable. I get it.
+
+[3:05] I get it, I get it from all sides too, because coming out of the speakers is coming out that way. I can't, man. Not doing that again. Wow, sorry for you. Sorry for you.
+
+[3:12] Uh so I once had to do it on the street for somebody. Here's the worst. Like, I've uh I don't do it anymore because Stas and I decided that in general we don't like to do it, but I've done it in a hotel room when I'm by myself. Why? Because it had to call in.
+
+[3:27] You know, all the times I used to have to call in, like if when I was in Germany, I did it once uh on a street corner in some other country. I forget where I was. And it's just like it just feels really weird not doing it in the context of the booth. You know what I mean? Like in a hotel, like two rooms down, someone's like, can't you just have sex like a normal person in the room and buy them and you're not how you do it.
+
+[3:53] That's not right. Imagine? That's horrifying. That's horrifying. Uh so anything uh good happened in your world of food and drink this past week?
+
+[4:02] Food and drink? No. No? Well, didn't you just bring me some nice food and drink from like the I gave you Meyer lemons and grapefruits from my parents' backyard. Nice.
+
+[4:10] And uh what kind of grapefruit are they? I don't know. What color are they? White. How long ago were they on the tree?
+
+[4:17] Five days ago. Five days? Nice. Did you keep them in your fridge? Nope.
+
+[4:22] Alright. Uh like Nastasia grew up with a Meyer Lemon tree, so she has a special love for them. I've never developed this love, so she's bringing me her childhood Meyer Lemons in the hopes that I can develop a similar love. Now, I hope you guys know that for her to actually like something from her childhood is like like a crazy thing. I'm like, Nastasia, why do you hate lemongrass?
+
+[4:46] She's like, because I grew up with it. Because I grew up with it, so I don't like it anymore. And like all the stuff from your childhood you don't like, except for Myer Lemons. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:56] How's come? How come that's the one? No, they're good. They're not as waxy as what you're used to, I don't think. Are you don't like the waxiness?
+
+[5:05] Is that what it's the waxiness? I mean of the peel? Yeah. I mean, they smell good. Yeah.
+
+[5:11] Fragrant. Um, oh, and this is from we're now exchanging gifts. This is from uh our friend Bitteress Girl who gives me the MREs and comes to the Heritage Radio Network events. It's is glassware for you. Oh.
+
+[5:24] She thought you would like to show the things that you're putting out of so she's unwrapping it now. That's what's happening. Like a tree trunk. Well, if a tree was a big thing. Are they all the same?
+
+[5:44] If a tree was an octagon, I don't know, they're yours. I didn't open it. I did not open it. Anyway, cool. Uh thank you.
+
+[5:51] Um, you said nothing good in food and drink happened to you. No. At all. Nope. See, what did I do?
+
+[5:58] I had to do so I had parties, but not food. The parties had no good food and drink? No. Did you throw any parties? No.
+
+[6:06] Just going to other people's parties? Alright. I had to throw the uh Booker's yearly sushi party. Uh so my son Booker, who, you know, is a lover of only candy and sushi and cured New Zealand King salmon, which by the way, turns out our guest from the New Zealand King Salmon, uh, I've seen him at the bar a couple of times, Michael. He uh he used to be working with our classics in the field from two weeks ago, uh Paul Bertoli at Framani, his sausage thing.
+
+[6:38] So he knows, so it's like all of the cooking issue stuff is coming together. Isn't that weird? Cool. Anyways. So Booker, of course, had to eat his half kilo of Ikura, but then every year I do the like, you know, they all want to make you know, sushi rolls, like America style sushi rolls like Californian and salmon all stuff.
+
+[6:55] So I have to make all all the stuff. And so every year I have to, you know, Morimoto style, like rotary cut uh veg, and then into sheets and then hack those sheets into sticks so that they can be placed inside of the sushi roll. You know, you know how you do. So I typically I'll do, you know, cucumber, carrot, daikon, uh, and pickled daikon. I think that's and scallions, and that's it.
+
+[7:21] Anyway, for veg. Uh avocado, but I don't do the same thing. You can't rotary cut an avocado. What are you? Weirdo?
+
+[7:27] Rotary cutting avocado. Do you know what the uh old English D-bag name for avocado is? You familiar with this, Matt? No. And it does not make sense until you've tasted other kinds of avocados.
+
+[7:38] Okay, wrap your mind around this alligator pear. Oh. Alligator pear. Now, for those of us that grew up having the image of the avocado in your mind be the Haas avocado, right? Uh, or like, you know, weirdos in grocery stores call it Mexican avocados, right?
+
+[7:58] But Haas, because in Mexico they have so many more varieties of avocado than Haas, right? But anyway, the Haas avocado is kind of that bumply bumpy one that is delicious and soft and high in oil, right? So you can get the alligator part out of that, because it's all looks like an alligator, and that makes sense. And I g I guess it's kind of pear-shaped too. Maybe that's why they call it an alligator pear.
+
+[8:19] But the texture is nothing like a pear, but if you have some of the other non oily varieties of uh avocado, like Colombian avocados, then I could see more closely how they're like, oh, I get it. It's kind of like maybe I because it's not just like a vehicle for like oil and creaminess and uncuousness, it's like something that you might eat, not like bite it like a pear, but it makes more sense, other than just the shape and the skin, alligator pear. You know what they call Asian pears in stupid old apple? No, no, no. Uh sand pears.
+
+[8:49] Which is not a nice thing to call it. And they're not pears, neither are they apples. But I like uh do you like an Asian pears? No. Why?
+
+[8:56] I don't know. What is it about all of it? Texture, flavor. You don't like the texture? Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:01] Huh. Huh. What about you, Matt? Uh I feel like no. I haven't had one in a long time.
+
+[9:07] I should try I should try it again. Yeah, you should. There are many, many varieties of Asian pear, right? But uh but I think maybe nostasias, and tell me if this is your gripe on them. They're mainly about the kind of crunch and the water explosion texture with like kind of a mild florally and sweet taste, but they're not kind of rich or complicated that way.
+
+[9:27] I in general. Oh my god. Yeah, I told you my wife hates water chestnuts. Jen hates water chestnuts. And she also, by the way, sorry, hates me talking about it.
+
+[9:37] Because she thinks she's like, why you gotta bring up like the the one thing I don't like? You know what I'm saying? She's like, you're a jerk. You make me look like a bad guy. Just the one thing I don't like.
+
+[9:45] But it's like, you know, I feel that there's like a a community of people out there who hate water chestnuts out all out of proportion. And uh for me, I don't understand the hatred. Now remember, people, I don't like melon other than watermelon. So we all have our issues in life, cooking issues specifically. But uh water chestnuts, to me, it's just like some sort of like it's like crunchy water.
+
+[10:07] Like, what is this? Is that is it that I that weird, it's not fibrous, but that weird, like mealy crunchy that you don't like? Yeah, I guess so. Where are you on water chestnuts, Matt? Uh I have not had a water chestnut.
+
+[10:19] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? What year were you born? Uh 86. Yeah.
+
+[10:25] Man, maybe it's like a generational thing. What year were you born as that? So, like somewhere between eighty two and eighty six. They disappeared? We had a lot of Chinese food growing up.
+
+[10:34] Yeah, but I feel like even like you saying Matt hasn't had Chinese food? Wait. Okay. Yeah, hold on. Well, okay.
+
+[10:40] I gotta look at the internet for a second. The water chestnuts are the ones that uh what is the thing that sort of has like a bunch of circles? Almost looks like you're eating the plastic that uh a soda uh six pack would come. Are you thinking of bamboo shoots or are you thinking of lo of lotus root? Probably lotus root.
+
+[10:57] It's got holes in it, it's like a big disc with holes in it. You know, cream colored that's lotus root. That's lotus root. Okay, yep. Still no on the water chestnuts, I think.
+
+[11:04] You don't you mean you see that thing I feel like in the 70s, like every pseudo Chinese restaurant uh sorry, every pseudo Chinese recipe that like Whitey McWhitington would make at home had water chestnuts. What? And baby corn. Oh, I I do not like baby corn. I I'm gonna go on record as saying baby corn is not good.
+
+[11:23] You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. What about baby corn, Matt? I don't I mean I'll eat it if someone puts it in a thing, but it's not I would not by choice purchase it. Do you know what's delicious?
+
+[11:35] Corn. Corn is amazing. Oh my god, corn tastes good. Oh my god, is corn good. You uh you also have to do almost nothing to make it taste so good.
+
+[11:43] Oh, corn tastes so good. Also, like like sweet corn tastes good, corn meal is great, like almost every aspect of the corn. So baby corn actually is sort of genius because it's much worse than corn, but also much smaller, so you don't have as much of the bad food. Yeah, but you took that corn, well, okay, so they do grow smaller varieties, but really it's immature corn and you're eating the cob. When was the last time you were eating corn and you were like, damn, I wish I could eat that cob.
+
+[12:10] Does that happen to you? Never. No. So then they like cook it and like can it. It's not even usually interestingly pickled.
+
+[12:18] It's in that kind of like water, in that baby corn water. You know what I'm talking about, Nastasia? Yeah. And it's just like that was a 70s thing. I feel like people have tried to bring it back a bunch, but I'm like, why?
+
+[12:30] Why? Like, why? Like, I don't understand it. Something that I'm try I've tried to love many times is canned hearts of palm, too. Now, Hearts of Palm I like, kind of.
+
+[12:41] I've had good hearts of Palm, but like I've tried to make myself love Hearts of Palm, and I'm always like, what's to what's to love so much? What about you, Nastasia? I don't like it. You also don't like giant beets, red beets. I like red beets.
+
+[12:56] I just don't like this is a long discussion. I told you the best beets I've ever had were those dehydrate roasted beets. Anyway, here's the here's the flip for you. So, like, of vegetables that come in just kind of like flavorless like water, right? You got your baby corn, right?
+
+[13:12] And then uh you got your canned artichoke hearts. Now, canned artichoke hearts are a pale comparison to an actually well done, nice, like you know, artichoke heart, whether you like raise it, whether you you know fry it. I usually fry them, not deep fry, but you know, like pan fry to get it crisp on the one side. Uh but like that's a huge difference between the canned stuff, but I haven't yet had that huge difference where like I'm like, I now understand hearts of palm because I've grown up on the water variety. Because when you look at a canned artichoke heart, you're like, nah, you you you usually buy if you're gonna buy pre made, you buy oil pack, right?
+
+[13:50] Yeah, yeah. But you've had the the canned water ones, right? And you're like, meh, right? Mm-hmm, meh. Mm-hmm.
+
+[13:56] Yeah. And uh, don't you feel that hearts of palm might be that way? That there might be some sort of genius inside of a heart of palm the way there is inside of artichoke, or the way artichoke is. There isn't. Why?
+
+[14:05] You've experimented? No, I just don't like hearts of palm. I don't know. Well, have you ever had anything other than the canned? No.
+
+[14:12] Okay. Um and you like it not canned? I'm trying to say I've never had the experience. I don't feel like I know enough. I don't know.
+
+[14:19] I don't know. I don't have enough experience with hearts of. Anywhere where they grow, like what is it? It's the center, like if you strip off the top of the palm, it's the growing shoot in the middle of the palm. Yes, usually small palms.
+
+[14:34] But the the thing is is that they there's a couple of different varieties of uh of thing of palm like of aircasey thing that they harvest the hearts of palm. And some, uh when you harvest it, like they're dead. That's it. You knock off the thing, and then the palm tree is dead, dead, dead. Muerto, finished, over.
+
+[14:53] And then some you can reharvest a couple of times. But you're basically just harvesting that. The worst meal would be baby corn, water chestnuts, cantaloupe, ambrosia salad. I like ambrosia. And giant red beads you don't like ambrosia?
+
+[15:10] Okay. We have a collar. Caller. I didn't even finish the thing, but we'll get to it later. Ask me about sushi.
+
+[15:16] Ask me about sushi party. Uh caller, you're on the air. Uh hey Dave, this is Josh, uh coming from Sarasota, Florida. Hey, I know. Just looking good.
+
+[15:24] How are you? All right. Uh looking for some uh some advice on doing like a uh long cook, like a low temp cook on uh chuck roast. Okay. Like 24 to 48 hours.
+
+[15:34] Right. Um I did I did a 24-hour cook on one like a couple weeks ago. It came out pretty good. The temper the texture was it was a little chewy still. Um and so I'm planning on doing a 48-hour one this coming weekend for some friends, but I didn't know if you had any input before I put myself out there with with friends.
+
+[15:56] You know what I'm saying? What temperature did you use? Uh I did 60 Celsius because I was doing it for my in-laws who don't like things to be too rare. I was gonna go a little bit lower, like 58, 59. Yeah.
+
+[16:08] But sometimes my friends kind of get a little squeamish with if things are too too rare, you know? Right. I mean the the okay, so like part of the problem with like a a chuck, tell me whether you had this happen. So at 24 hours at 60 trying to think of uh trying to think of uh because I've never done that exact temperature. Um I mean it should have started to get we should have broken down quite a bit of the collagen by 24 hours at 60.
+
+[16:38] Like yeah, it was definitely it was definitely pretty good, but it was like a little chewyer than what I was looking for. So I don't know if you know. By the way, before I go into this, are you on the Tampa side of Sarasota or the Venice side of Sarasota? Um I actually live in Bradenton, but but um I'm more of the yeah, the Tampa side. Yeah, all right, yeah.
+
+[16:58] Uh so do they still find sharks' teeth on the beaches down in Venice and Nicomis or no? As far as I know, I haven't been down that way in a long time. Yeah. But uh but as far as I know. Yeah.
+
+[17:10] Used to be a shelf off the coast there, and then whenever storms would come up, like in that shelf, like is where all the prehistoric sharks were dead, and the storms would come up and just wash all these prehistoric sharks sharks' teeth up on the beach. And so you'd wait for the waves to crash in, and then like before they rolled back out again, you'd you'd yank 'em. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I was down there about fifteen years ago when we did that, and and you know, they were still washing in, but I I don't know recently if they I'm assuming it still happens.
+
+[17:39] Yeah, who knows. Uh okay. So the uh I mean that's a fun thing for a kid. If you take a kid down, kids like collecting sharks' teeth. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[17:44] Yeah. I mean those little weird sand fleas you have down there, not a giant fan of, but the shark's teeth. Very pro, very pro. Uh yeah. So uh can you think you could cook a sand flea?
+
+[18:01] Could you capture another or whatever they are? You know those little things that jump around? Can you eat them? Did you know in Belgium do you know in Belgium they have like these seashore shrimp where you used to have horses and the horses would drag these like nets in the sand and pick up like zillions of these little gray shrimp, and then they would cook them and then sell them all over Belgium. Isn't that a weird isn't that a weird thing?
+
+[18:27] Weird thing. I'm gonna go experience that. I'm going to Belgium for the first time in February. So for any of you with ideas of Belgium, let me know. Anyway, back to your problem.
+
+[18:34] One of the issues with low temperature cooking in general versus high temperature cooking and what I like to call multi-muscle meats. So when you're dealing with chuck, you're dealing with something where there's a lot of different muscles, right? And in any sort of like mass group of muscles, more certain muscles have more connective tissue and certain muscles have less connective tissue. So let me know if I'm on base here. Even with something like pork belly, right?
+
+[18:57] It's not one continuous muscle. There'll be different uh pieces of muscle that that'll go in and out. So what'll end up happening in general is that one section of the uh meat will be kind of dil, you know, delicious, you know, good texture, and another one will be strangely dry, doesn't respond well, turns mushy, and it's could be construed as chewy slash mushy at the same temperature just because the two muscles are very different, right? And so in situations like that, right, especially if people are used to kind of more traditional cooking methods where let's say the gelatin renders out of every like all the collagen turns to gelatin. Because in low temperature cooking, the collagen does get converted into gelatin, but because the temperatures aren't so high, it doesn't really render out.
+
+[19:47] It stays almost like a single piece of meat where the gelatin is kind of the gelat is kind of compacted in, you can actually see the connective tissue doesn't kind of melt out, and you don't get those like stringy textures that you get uh in kind of a slow-cooked braise, right? And so the problem with that is is that that stuff then doesn't render out and moisten what would otherwise be overcooked non-connective tissue muscles in the same sort of area. Does that make sense? So it can be problematic when doing these things, especially if you're going in the range of let's say once you go over about 57, right, or 57, once you're into 60, certain of the muscles are gonna start tasting uh like relatively toothy, right, until they go mushy because the proteins of them have been overcooked, and then you're not rendering out a lot of the gelatin into uh into the rest of the meat as you would with a traditional thing. So you're caught in kind of like a strange in-between land, right?
+
+[20:44] Now, in something that is like a braised short rib where there's kind of connected tissue throughout, then when you you can cook at really almost any temperature you want. I don't really see much of a tr uh reason to go over about 62 when you're doing uh short ribs, but uh anything from like 55 for rare, which I don't really like, but people, it's kind of a thing people do, like all the way up to 62. What happens is the texture changes, and uh uh incidentally, the higher the temperature in that range, things get beefier and beefier tasting, right? So people tend to uh appreciate the beefiness of it more. Uh and this is another thing you have to realize is that um slow cooked chuck like this is never gonna have the intensely beefy flavor that a high temperature uh braise one is because the high temperatures create some of that beefy flavor, right?
+
+[21:34] But anything between about 62, 63 and traditional brazing temperatures in the 80s, right? Uh I don't really have much use for them. You know what I mean? I don't think that they're providing the best of either of the two worlds. So I tend to stay either in the lower range or higher.
+
+[21:51] Now, if you're feeling from tasting it was that certain muscles tasted chewy because they were overcooked, right? Then lower the temperature down to like a 57, but some of your friends not might not be happy. If you're feeling that the connective tissue hadn't fully rendered yet, then go longer. But you have to be able to distinguish between the two different kinds of things which can almost masquerade for each other at certain times. You see what I'm saying?
+
+[22:16] Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. So I'm I've I've got one going right now at home at 59. It'll be tonight, it'll be just shy of 48 hours. I guess I'll see how that goes and try to distinguish the two and then and then go from there.
+
+[22:30] But I'll probably try the 57 and see how that goes. So in muscles that don't have a lot of connective tissue, what you should notice for what I consider to be like they what happens is is that when you bite into it, the fibers will have started to break down and it will taste somewhat mushy. Now, some people, it this is my opinion, mushy. Some people actually love that flak that that texture. They love it because they think of it as tender.
+
+[22:58] To me, in my mind, there's a difference between tenderness, which is the can there is a lack of or it that connected tissue has been broken down, and the actual what the fibers are like, are they mushy or not? And you so they separate between those two kinds of concepts, and then once you separate between those two kinds of concepts, you can troubleshoot like which way you want to go. Do I want to drop the temperature or do I want to increase the time? See what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[23:27] But uh shoot me something on cooking issues on Twitter. Let me know uh let me know how it turned out after it comes out tonight. I will do, thank you. Cool. And you actually have one other one on the line as well.
+
+[23:40] All right, caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hi. This is uh Patrick Cullen from Brooklyn. How are you guys doing? How are you doing?
+
+[23:46] So I've got a question about steaming, but first I have a just a brief comment on your uh atomic blast conversation from a couple weeks back. You said steaming, correct? Yeah. Okay, okay. Steaming nostasia.
+
+[23:59] Jeez Louise. All right. All right, what was your comment? Is that apparently um a lot of the blast calculations that the the the uh militarily do not take into effect the damage from incineration of buildings by the initial uh uh range and whatever the uh the flash, whatever the beginning thing is called. Yeah, that the effects are vastly understated in all the yield calculations out there.
+
+[24:28] So basically it'd be a lot worse than you think. Immediately. Well everywhere. Conversely, it could be a lot uh let me explain I'll give you this, right? So most of the like standard highly flammable substance tests were like the the live, you know what what we did in in Japan, right?
+
+[24:47] And and it's true that a lot of the the blast tests that were done in the US were done on military they did like some house-based stuff, right? But they also did military institution and concrete structures. And I don't know exactly which one of those things they relied on the most, right? But it is true and I've read that things like fires are undercalculated by their blast and the damage that's involved. But another thing that they did not test on was the effect of giant urban metropolises that are so dense.
+
+[25:22] If you look at all of their calculations, none of them were done in like massive modern urban environments, which is kind of weird because they existed at the time. You know what I mean? But I guess you know they weren't gonna build like four city blocks with skyscrapers on it and then you know attempt an air blast and a ground blast uh you know next to it. It's just impracticable. So you know I always thought that like it could be worse in some ways like you say, but in other ways it could be better because no one's expecting you to be in the shadow of the Empire State Building.
+
+[25:56] You know what I mean? Well so hopefully we don't get to the real real world test. Yeah at all just throwing throwing that out there. Yeah. Um so so my scheming question is that I purchased and now the now defunct Cuisinar countertop it's like a steam coaster oven it's basically like a combi I think a consumer combi.
+
+[26:16] Yeah, I owned one oven yeah I I used to own one. Yeah. So I am curious about on a steam alone setting, since the temp goes from I think 120 to 210, of fooling around with with steaming, mostly mostly animal protein. If there's any guidance on you know low temperature steaming or even where to start or use are tents and time for studying relevant. I my only real experience is using bamboo steamer baskets, and I'm not even sure what temperature that's steaming in in the basket when you have it above above a walk.
+
+[26:54] So I was just looking for some general guidance, and it seems to be that there's very little written about this as far as I can tell. About like steaming and com well, it in com okay, okay. So when you're above a walk in a steamer basket, you're pretty much doing uh, you know, 212, you're doing steam, right? The main issues when you're using steamer baskets that I think people don't think about a lot is that uh in l you know, unless you're being extremely if you're extremely vigorous, you're getting massive amounts of condensation, which can be problematic, although steamer baskets are pretty good at handling that. But if you're using multiple steamer baskets, you're not necessarily getting the same heat output into the top basket as you are on the bottom basket.
+
+[27:37] And so that kind of needs to be calculated for. Unit, uh, and my friend John Darragon has one and he loves it, is the idea of uh lower temperature steam. Now, when you're creating the steam, it's being created at the high temperature, right? But it's being injected into the oven in such a way that you're not raising the oven temperature all the way up to the temperature of steam, right? And so the reason to do that in a low temperature thing is that one of the reasons why ovens are so terrible at doing low temperature cooking is that there's massive amounts of evaporation off of your product as it's cooking.
+
+[28:36] So you can never really regulate the temperature. Once something becomes 100% humidity inside of the box, and this is the theory of the CVAP oven, where there's a bain marie in it, and you're heating the bain marie up until the water is the same temperature that you want the oven to be, is that once you're in a hundred percent humidity environment, even if it's not quote unquote steam, right, then you're getting actual temperature on the surface of the meat because you've gotten rid of evaporative cooling, and you've also increased the heat transfer rate of the medium by saturating it with moisture, right? So you got this double thing where you can be more accurate, you're not having a uh evaporation off of your off your product and you know, all this, but you don't have to put it in a bag. And that's the theory of like a CVAP oven or of low temperature combi, is that I'm still getting decent heat transfer, not as much as you would in a bag necessarily, and I'm getting decent accuracy because I've mitigated the effects of evaporative cooling. And that's what you're looking to do.
+
+[29:31] Now, whether or not the cuisinart is able to do that, I have never run any tests, but it may be. Now, here's my problem. So, and the the bigger a piece of meat is, the less accurate it needs to be. Now, I've measured my brevel toaster oven on uh temperature accuracy over time and also power output over time. I don't remember off the top of my head what the answers were, but I've measured it, like with equipment.
+
+[29:55] Uh I have not measured uh the um the cuisin art. But you know, people who like back when Chris Young was doing uh modernist cuisine with uh, you know, Miravold and Grant and uh Maxime, you know, they were measuring combi ovens and they noticed that there was uh like a lot of uh porpoising up and down of the temperature, that it averaged the right temperature and that the average was good, but that it went up and down by you know several degrees over the course of a couple of minutes. And so they use that as a knock against the these ovens. And my point was always, well, it depends on how long the cycle is, because as long as your average is 100%, you're only uh accurate, you're only ever over or undercooking, right? The amount of meat that is affected during the time at which it ex goes excursed above uh the excursion of the temperature is above your set point.
+
+[30:46] Does that make sense? So the question is aesthetically if if if at the end too you were doing a high temperature finish, that same meat affected by that could it could be the same zone of the meat that's gonna get in the high temperature finish at the end in any way. So it doesn't really matter whether you overcook the outer layer of the meat. Now on a thinner product where the the temperature excursion is enough to to like cause an effect all the way through the meat, well then you're hosed, right? So it it all depends on how good the average is and then how thick your piece of meat is that you whether you can withstand uh whether whether whether you're gonna overcook with your finish the outside anyway, and it and it doesn't matter.
+
+[31:26] So this is just something that has to be tested. I haven't tested it with that oven. Now, I will say this: my problem with that oven was twofold. One, the freaking rack that they give you is garbage. It's so garbage.
+
+[31:40] The cooking rack is such a POS. Oh my god, I hate it. That the wire they make it out of is so thin that it like cuts into things, and then the wires themselves are so far separate from each other that like, you know, unless your bread is stiff as hell before it goes in, it flops down around the thing, or like heaven forbid you try to reheat a freaking pancake. Steam is great for like reheating. Let's say you make pancakes and you have you make extra ones, right?
+
+[32:07] What are you supposed to do with those? You're supposed to freeze them and then you can reheat them later, right? Or you know, if you're gonna throw them away. But the best way to reheat something like that is with steam because you're not drying it out as you're reheating it, and it meant to be cooked to a high temperature anyway. So a little bit of a steam hit with then with a little bit of toasting effect to do it out, great.
+
+[32:26] But the problem is is that those things curl around the freaking edges of that stupid grit grate that they give you. The grate is the worst piece of great technology I've ever used in my whole life. I hate it. There's nothing in between this and a commercial TV app at this point, right? Uh no.
+
+[32:44] Dave, Dave from chat chimed in to say that you should know that a Nova is producing a consumer combi oven. It says it will be out in 2020. Oh, nice. Now, the other problem I have with the QuisNart is that particular QuisNart is that uh I don't like the control system at all. Like I wish they would just give you like a different way to control it.
+
+[33:04] There's a the dial spinning and the different things that they have. I find it I find the control scheme unpleasant. That part not fun. So so so two two two quick things to wrap that up then is that so for like a traditional like uh like uh city ham time and text time temperature and time, what would you suggest starting starting with on that? I I I it got so many different suggestions.
+
+[33:30] I'm curious what you think of of where you would at least start on, you know, just about the size of pork that could fit in that thing. Well, remember a city ham's already cooked, right? So what to cure to cure to cure and then do the first cook. Oh, oh, okay. Uh yeah, I mean, like it's like it depends on on what you like.
+
+[33:53] I I don't know actually what temperature I used to know, what temperature they take them up to, but I would probably end uh going somewhere in for a traditional kind of texture on uh city ham, somewhere like north of 60 and south of 65, probably, like in that range, uh, just to get that same kind of texture. Anything over, you're gonna be killing it. Anything under 60, and you're gonna not necessarily have the texture that people associate with it, you know what I mean? It's gonna be too soft. Well, people don't want rare-ish ham.
+
+[34:29] You know what I mean? Unless it's like country ham, like I eat raw, you know what I mean? Ain't nobody eating a city ham raw. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[34:37] Yeah. Uh and there obviously they're you know, people love a rosy rare uh pork chop, but uh here's what they I don't think they like. People, I think some people hate a rosy rare pork chop, by the way, but you know, they they've become more in fashion, you know, since when I was a kid, when you ordered a pork chop, a they were thin, and b, you cooked the ever loving snot out of those things until they were like pieces of shoe leather because that's what everyone was told to do, and no one wanted anything other than like a shoe leather pork chop. And I grew up in the exact worst time for pork chops because this renaissance of like the not as cooked pork chop or the the like the rosy in the middle pork chop uh had not yet happened yet, but they had bred all of the fat out of pigs by the time that I was kind of a kid, and so the thin pork chop of the 80s was also dry, which is a nightmare. You grew up with dry pork chops, Sassy?
+
+[35:33] Yeah. The pork chop of the 80s was a dry, like a dry, sad pork chop, right? The pork chop of our grandparents' era was greasy anyway. But sponge on the counter and then forget about it sort of had that texture entirely. Yeah.
+
+[35:47] Um I just and then to completely wrap it up. I'm just curious with like duck or poultry like that that help you you can't it helps to have some sort of initial cooking before the roast with the at least with the the with the fat and the skin. Is the steam do you need a dehydration step after that initial cook to dry it out, or can you go straight from a steam into the oven, or is there really a good model for like a duck or two steamed black roast? Uh people love people love cooking that stuff in combies. I don't have that they love it.
+
+[36:22] They love it. I don't have that much experience. I you know, typically any dehigh you do, you do before your roast step, and then your injection would be done, your steam injection would be done uh at the outset to kind of like jump start uh and because it's not actually making the surface moist, it's just increasing your heat transfer. You see what I'm saying? And and stopping a certain uh amount of evaporation off and and just jacking your heat transfer up.
+
+[36:50] So I would say you probably continue doing it the traditional way and then with a steam injection. But I personally don't have like when I used combis, I you know, most of my combi work was kind of special effect combi work. Like I was never like on a line just like throwing you know a bunch of chickens or a bunch of ducks into a combi and and letting her rip. So I don't I don't personally have that much experience with it, but I know people love cooking duck in a combi. Okay, cool.
+
+[37:18] Well, I'll let you let you know how it goes. Look forward to the better model that works well. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I'll be looking out for it as well. Um we actually have an up yet another caller.
+
+[37:30] All right, caller, you're on the air, what's up? Hey, I got an easy question for you guys. Um so I just started cooking like three or four months ago, and I started listening to your guys' uh podcast, and I've been making fresh noodles, which is way better than any noodles that I've ever tasted. But the problem I'm having is they keep clumping up together. Yeah.
+
+[37:58] Um how do I like sometimes it's clumping up, sometimes not, and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong to cause it to clump up. So you're you're you're doing like Italian style noodles? Yeah, just uh Italian style noodles, spaghetti noodles, angel hair, stuff like that. And you have an Atlas style pasta roller? Yep, exactly.
+
+[38:21] Okay. So this is a common problem. What are you using to mix the uh to mix the uh the pasta? Um a fork. Oh, so you you're not using like a kitchen aid or anything like that?
+
+[38:35] No, I don't have I don't have anything like that. Okay. So your problem is one of hydration, right? So pasta dough is like Italian pasta. Are you doing egg or not egg?
+
+[38:47] Egg. Egg. So uh pasta dough is one of those things where you know it's almost like you want for you almost want it to be such low hydration that you're like, this is never gonna be a dough. Do you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying, Stas?
+
+[39:02] So it's like she's just she's mouthing words but not speaking them. Just don't like fresh pasta. Well, fresh pasta is different from dry pasta. They're different products. You don't like it at all?
+
+[39:11] At all. Rabioli, yes. Cavitelli? No. You don't like cavitelli?
+
+[39:16] Cavitelli. You don't like it. Not really a fresh pasta, but gnocchi you don't like? Potato gnocchi, yes. Where it's purely made out of potatoes.
+
+[39:27] There's no such thing as pure. With no flour in it. Like a little bit, but not the majority. The majority is potato. Who makes who makes like real Italians?
+
+[39:37] Real t you're real Italian. Did you ever live in Italy by yourself? No. Why are you questioning me? Because what you're saying all real Italian.
+
+[39:46] You know. Hey, family show. First of all, and you made it with your family you were living with? Yes. And how much flour did they use?
+
+[39:53] I don't remember, but a lot. Well, I'm not saying it should be all flour, but like you're saying like it's like no one makes it with all potatoes and a teaspoon of flour. It's mostly potato. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Well, what doesn't matter?
+
+[40:05] You don't believe me. Go on with his question. I just want a recipe. Okay. Otherwise it's mashed potatoes and egg.
+
+[40:14] Needs some flour. Yeah. Geez, Louise. And I don't appreciate the hatred of fresh pasta. But I understand you're you're you're in the al dente pasta business where you like you want it dried, you need that hard center.
+
+[40:28] Uh but when you're making a pasta, whether you're making it, whether you're gonna dry it or not later, like you need to have a very low hydration dough. And so the problem you're having is there's just too much water in the dough, and that's why it's clumping together. So there's a couple things you can do to rectify that. You can either try to get like a harder, like a heavier mixing environment to like mix it so that you can mix a lower hydration dough. It might also be the flour that you're using.
+
+[40:54] But another thing you could do is do what I used to do, which is cheat. And the way that you cheat, okay, is is that you make the dough as kind of stiff as you can, and then uh you know how you so when you're rolling it through the rollers, you you know, you you take the piece that you're gonna do, you roll it through like once, twice, three, and then it starts to kind of look like dough before you start rolling it and then reducing the size of it. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, okay. So uh flour it in between the rolls, and then as you're rolling it, the flour will get um get get kind of into it and will stiffen it somewhat.
+
+[41:33] So especially like I don't think anyone ever uses number seven on those rollers. It's like you all or whatever it is, the highest number is seven, whatever. I only ever really go to the second to highest one, the other one's like so thin it's crazy, right? But the the thinner you go, the less apt it is to clump. And if you're dusting it with flour in between, another thing you can do is uh pause so like once you get it down to your final uh place, you can put a light dusting of flour on it, let it sit, uh, and let it air out a little bit, and then when you cut it, it won't clump nearly as much.
+
+[42:10] Now, one of the problems is is that most of the rollers on the pasta things, they um the the two cutting like thingamajigs kind of don't really intersect that much, they barely touch. And so sometimes if you have very thin or very dry doughs, they tend not to like even necessarily get cut, but that's a machine to machine because the tolerances on the machines aren't that high, if if that makes sense to you. So I don't know whether if your machine's always cutting like a dream, realize also with a drier dough, you're gonna have to like feed in a little harder to get it to grip, but that's actually good because it's gonna clump less as it comes out, and then like lay them out in in strips or over. You know, I remember I used to jam wooden spoons into things and then like drape the stuff over the wooden spoon and get them to go in. But it's it's mainly just a hydration problem.
+
+[42:58] And a little bit of cheating, you know, uh a little bit of cheating with flour dusting in between your roller steps, I think is gonna help you out tremendously. Yeah, super helpful. Appreciate that. This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. The food service industry faces a challenge.
+
+[43:18] More people are eating out, yet restaurants are losing talent. Why is this? Research by Fair Kitchens reveals a serious well-being issue within professional kitchens. 74% of chefs are sleep deprived to the point of exhaustion. 63% of chefs feel depressed, and more than half feel pushed to the breaking point.
+
+[43:40] This can't be ignored. Fair Kitchens is a movement based on the belief that a positive kitchen culture makes for a healthier business. By taking the pledge to be a fair kitchen, they'll provide you with free information, tools, and resources to help you take action towards making your restaurant more stable, productive, and happy, which positively affects the guest experience. It's time to act now. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com.
+
+[44:15] Yuri writes in about Methassell. Hi, hope this is still the correct email address for questions for cooking issues or so. Dear Dave Nastasia, esteemed guests of the podcast. No guests today. No guess.
+
+[44:25] No. No. Nastasi's shopping for shoes. Are you looking for gnocchi recipes or you're shopping for shoes? Gnocchi recipes.
+
+[44:31] Alright, cool. I'm looking for resources slash guidance on how to do you believe in that fade in the spoon book? I don't really like it. The book that apparently every Italian house has a copy of that was translated into English like 15 years ago, and it's just got the spoon on the front of it. Do you know the book I'm talking about?
+
+[44:47] It's like the joy of cooking for Italy. It's the most popular cookbook in Italy. You know what I'm talking about? No. It's translated into English, like, whatever.
+
+[44:54] Look up their recipe, see what they do. Because that's the like you're looking for the joy of cooking equivalent of gnocchi. Um, oh, you know what I never talked about? The carrots. That's what I was getting to this whole time with the sushi.
+
+[45:08] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I bought a sheeting, a vegetable sheeting attachment, and then I put on Insta Instagram a picture of me doing these carrot sheets. And the way you're supposed to do it is take like a sharp knife and hold it still and then rotate the carrot. Helps if you I don't because I never have this patience, but it helps if you soak it a little bit in salt water to kind of dehydrate a little bit so it's a little softer.
+
+[45:31] But carrot, you just rotate it through carrot, cucumber, uh, dicon, all that, and you get a long sheet, then you hack that sheet into smaller sheets, you stack the sheets up, and then you slice it into the little strips that you put inside the sushi. But I happen to own a kitchen aid sheeter that I got on super sale on eBay that I bought so that I can I talked about it on the air before, so I could do like potato lasagna where it's like just like a like l like almost like a pot like a mashup between like a lasagna and a gratin with these like sheets of potatoes, and I was like, you know what? Crap on, I'm gonna use it. And so I made these like veg sheets with the uh stuff for this sushi party, and people accused me of going vegetti. People accused me of being uh a vegetiman.
+
+[46:19] That's that's rude of them. My my I have nothing against vegetis, by the way. I I don't like I uh or as they call spiralizers. I feel like you know, did we come off as being negative against the vegetti? Yeah, and Claire's never coming on the show again.
+
+[46:36] Well, I mean, that's because she thought she was coming on to be backed up by you and who was who else was on the show that day? And Rebecca, and in fact, you guys ganged up on her just as hard as I would have. So she said she's never gonna come back on. People if you hire Claire to be your life coach, which Nastasia will give you her information again, uh, say that the only way to be a true life coach is to come on cooking issues and specifically ask a question that you know is gonna turn me into a like a raving lunatic. Right, Sas?
+
+[47:12] Yes. Yeah. Uh okay. This is from Yuri. I'm looking for resources slash guidance on how to use methyl cell for applications other than foaming slash meringues, which are well documented.
+
+[47:22] Before we get into this, methysol is a hydro hydrocolloids are kind of the new age thickeners that you know I've been teaching about since forever. You know, Wiley Dufresne, my brother-in-law, was the one who started me using me, uh, you know, getting me to use a lot of them. But it's one of those uh kind of new new new era thickeners. It's um methocell is what people think it's short for is methacellulose, right? Methell is a brand name from Dow chemical that of both methocellulose and hydroxypropol methylcellulose.
+
+[47:58] So it's not a unified thing, methylcel. Like when you say methyl cell, you have to say exactly what you are uh looking to do. Now that the thing, and I'm gonna tell you basically about methacel before I go to the question, uh so that you understand the question better. But methacyl is derived from cellulose, so you pulp up, you know, like plant fibers and uh you know cellulose, and then uh you treat it in a very caustic solution to convert it into this thing, either methellulose or hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, and then there's a wide range of variations kind of between them. Then you hack them up into little particles, and then there you have your powder.
+
+[48:39] Now, the interesting thing about them, they have a couple of interesting uh characteristics, but the most interesting thing is that they tend to gel when they are hot. So almost every thickener, if it's going to form a gel, forms a gel as it's cooling, right? But methylcel does the opposite. Methocell, if it's in a water solution, as you heat it, it turns to a gel, right? Because what happens is as you heat it, it drops out of solution and forms a gel.
+
+[49:08] Now, there are 8 billion types, not 8 billion, they're like 19 types of methylcellulose. You need to ask exactly which ones you're looking for. So the main cool things that it does is as you heat it, it forms uh a gel. It can be harder, it can be softer, and it happens at different temperatures, and I'll I'll go into that in a second. But because of that, uh it also has uh foaming ability, which it's used for and can be used in emulsification systems.
+
+[49:36] Uh it's also not charged, right? In the way that like uh egg proteins are charged, and so it doesn't get affected by salt that much. Something that's not very well documented is it can be affected by milk. All right. So this is what methell is.
+
+[49:51] Now let's go into Yuri's question. Um I'm looking for understanding of how to use methylcel for stock clarification and for frying to avoid fat absorption. The recipes I find online are somewhat confusing. For instance, there's a donut recipe from Modernist Pantry uh where it's called slam dunk donuts, if you want to search for it, uses methylcel E4M, and there's a Shesteps fish and chips recipe that uses methyl F like Frank 50. How would I adapt either of these for a breaded cutlet, for example?
+
+[50:18] Uh well, if you well, okay, which methels should I use? What are the pros and cons of each one, and at what percentages? If I wanted to use methyl in my own donut recipe, uh, would I calculate the percentage from the weight of the flour or the finished dough or the liquid component? And then another example is Shesteps did a consume uh where they used methyl, they used F50, I think, for clarification. How would I scale that up down, etc.?
+
+[50:39] Okay, look, here's the thing. Um what met what they're doing with their uh another caveat from methels, methyl cell is one of the very few hydrocolloids that is not natural, i.e., it is not a naturally occurring substance. It is derived from a naturally occurring substance, but is chemically modified into something that is not naturally occurring, and some people have a problem with that. I don't. So okay.
+
+[51:08] What's happening in the donut recipe is first of all, when you're looking at the different series, the A series and the SGA, the SGA series is the hardest ging. So if you're looking for special effect gels, like the old heat setting noodles where people will give you like goop in a bottle, you squeeze the goop into soup and it turns into a noodle. They're using SG and A. That's straight methylcellulose, not hydroxypropo methyl cellulose. It gels at the lowest temperature, like sometimes in just plain hot water, like you know, like like mildly hot water, like water you can keep your hand in, and it gels harder and it stays gelled uh longer, right?
+
+[51:43] That's what the kind of stuff people were experimenting with, their hot ice creams, etc. etc., right? Those are those series. Uh anytime you have a methyl cell, whether it's the E series, the F series, the A series, or the S G series, there's a number afterwards. So F50.
+
+[52:00] That number 50 is how thick it is, how thick the viscosity of a solution of that is. So 50 is relatively low because if you if you get one that's like has an M in it, like uh E4M, the 4M means 4,000. It's Roman numerals, M, 4,000. So that is 4,000. Uh I believe it's in centipoise at a 2% solution.
+
+[52:28] That whereas uh F50 is only 50. So it's like orders of magnitude thicker. So when you're looking at any methyl cell, one, the other like the like the A series and the S G series form a stiffer gel and they form at a lower temperature. The other ones form a less firm gel and they form at a higher temperature. And the number afterwards is the viscosity.
+
+[52:50] 50 is low. Things like 4M is are very high. Okay. So on the donut recipe, what's happening is they're mixing some of that E4M in. That's gonna, I think I use E4M, that's gonna increase the viscosity of the batter, which means that it's not gonna bleed out as much.
+
+[53:09] It's gonna literally the viscosity of the batter will be higher. Once it's hydrated, the way they do it is they mix it dry and then they mix it in. Another interesting thing about methyl cell is if you want to make sure that it's hydrated, you have you should put it into hot water, stir it, and then chill the water and let it go into solution. But we can get into this later. We get you know, at some point we should maybe go through hydrocolloids and do hydrocolate of the week and why you use it and why you don't.
+
+[53:32] But uh in that recipe, what's happening is is that to the extent that it hydrates in the dough, it's capturing a lot of water, making it thick because of the high viscosity of it once it's hydrated. And two, um, as it's heated, it's forming a barrier to prevent oil absorption. That's what it's there for. In the Chef Steps recipe, they're using F50 because they want a relatively thin viscosity of stuff because they're using it as a pre-dip. They're making an F50 mix and they're pre-dipping into that if you believe in wet dip.
+
+[54:03] I'm not a wet dip. I'm I'm like chicken or whatnot into dry, into wet, into dry. They're doing wet, dry, wet, which is kind of not what I do, but fine, it's different. It's like a more of a batter thing. Uh I mean, pies and thighs does it that way, and and Roberta's used to do it that way when they had a pies and thighs person here.
+
+[54:22] Uh, wet, the wet, the start from wet. Their wet dip is a methel mix. Then when you put it into dry, it keeps that stuff there, but that's putting a grease barrier and also an anti-blast-off barrier. So one of the things that methylcel is good at is people used to put methylcel into things like barbecue sauce. You paint the barbecue sauce on your chicken.
+
+[54:43] Not that I do that, I don't particularly like doing that, but you paint the barbecue sauce on the chicken, and then when you put it on the grill, as it heats, instead of becoming more liquid and running off, it turns to a gel and sits there and doesn't run off. And that I think is mainly what they're doing in this recipe on Chef Steps, is not because it's not in the final batter, it's just in the, it's just in the pre-dip. I think they're mainly using it as a glue so that as it heats up, the batter tends to stick to the fish better and not pop off. I think that's what they're doing in that. So it's using it for a slightly different um, a slightly different uh thingamajig.
+
+[55:18] And the same thing with their consume recipe. What they're doing is is they're mixing the F50 in with chicken, right? The chicken provides the charge, it's actually doing the adhering, stuff adhering to the top of what they do is they grind up fresh chicken and methylcel and cloudy stock, they bring it up to uh a simmer, they let it simmer and it clarifies like a stock without egg white. The reason is that egg white strips a lot of flavor, which is dang true. I've done the tests, it does, right?
+
+[55:45] And what they're saying is that the F50 forms a gel, that gel traps the ground up chicken, and then the ground up chicken is what's doing the lean chicken, is what's doing the adhering of the stuff. And so um, you know, I would scale it up exactly as they're doing. Bear in mind that they're using 200 grams of chicken to 500 grams of stock, which is an extremely expensive way to make stock, which is why you're only doing it for like a high-end consume. I read some of the reviews on the website of their recipe, and people do this all the time. Someone's like, it doesn't work.
+
+[56:19] Of course, I didn't have methyl, I substituted Xanthan gum instead. People, they have very different functionalities. You can't substitute Xanthan gum for methacel. This is why I think a lot of people reach for hydrocolloids without an understanding of why they're using a particular hydrocolloid in uh in a particular application. Because the idea that you would substitute Xanthan gum for methell is patently absurd.
+
+[56:45] And of course it's not gonna work that way. You ever notice astasi people review books and they're like, I I don't like any of your recipes in the book. Of course, I didn't follow any of them. Buy and like them. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:57] Hate that. Uh Nastasia might find this interesting. You know what methole is used for that you might actually enjoy? Right. It's the slime in Ghostbusters.
+
+[57:06] And it's also used to make fake the fake oil in their uh there will be blood. You know, you see that movie? I thought you loved Daniel Day Lewis. I thought I don't. You do.
+
+[57:16] You love Dan. You don't love Daniel Day Lewis? No. Nope. You do.
+
+[57:21] You talked to him about me, you talk to me about him all the time off on it. Oh, you're a crazy person. She's doing it for you. She knows you love Daniel Baby. Oh, that's so nice.
+
+[57:31] Another thing people use it for commercially is in pie filling. Because you ever had a pie, you ever you don't like baking pie, right, Sus? Is there anything you like to bake? No. Mike is here.
+
+[57:41] She's putting your shoulder into the mic. There's nothing you like to bake? No, I don't like baking. What do you like to cook most? Uh pasta.
+
+[57:51] But like what kind of pasta? Like sauces and pasta. Alright. What about like, do you like cooking risotto? No.
+
+[57:59] So it's the only thing you like to cook is pasta. I will cook, but I'm not I've not been cooking lately. I don't think lately, but like what is it like? So pasta is your go-to. Why?
+
+[58:07] Because it's quick or because you actually enjoy doing it? Enjoy it. Yeah. Pasta is good for quick. Mm-hmm.
+
+[58:13] Nastasi Lopez hates hates fresh pasta. Anyway, if you put it into a pie filling, people put it there so it doesn't boil out. So, Matt, you ever bake pies? I have baked, I think one pie. Oh, you people.
+
+[58:25] All right. Uh this is from Brandon. Do you have any recommendations for a spice grinder that will not crap out on me after 10 uses? I've purchased the one recommended by a couple of sources I typically trust, serious seeds in America's Tech Kitchen. However, it is junk.
+
+[58:39] 100% wretched junk. As someone who actually cares about the taste of my food, I buy spices as fresh as possible and whole and then toast them and grind them myself. I've burned through numerous blade coffee grinders now and resort to either mortar pestle or my Vitamix if there's enough volume so that the blades work. What do professional kitchens use to grind tough things like cinnamon? Any recommendations for home use?
+
+[58:56] Thanks. Uh okay. It is a problem, actually, and people do use, and you referenced like a little Crupps coffee grinder, spice grinder thing. The wearing that I have a wearing blade grinder, and it's it's pretty good. Uh it has like individual like cups that click in and out of it and a thing that fits over it.
+
+[59:14] It's kind of expensive. But any blade grinder, I kinda they're kind of a nightmare because they they can't produce a good, you know, like for instance, if you're doing pepper in a blade grinder, right? It's always gonna leave like a bunch of whole peppercorns. And then when you're using it, if those whole peppercorns make it onto your product, that's a knife. How much do you hate when like you're cooking something and someone leaves whole peppercorns in, they're not cracked at all, and then you bite into it and you're like, What the hell is that?
+
+[59:43] You hate that? Crappy. It's crappy, right? So it's hard, so then you end up like kind of half grinding it because you don't want to turn everything to fine particles you want cracked, but then you're like, What the hell am I gonna do? So then you have to put it through a freaking like a like a sieve, you know what I mean?
+
+[59:57] To get the big big ones out, it's a nightmare. And the problem is that blade grinders are never gonna be good at getting a good consistent particle size. Mortar Pestle, good at that, pain in the butt, right? Uh so like what what are you supposed to do? So, first of all, you can get a higher end uh blade grinder, like a wearing and stuff like this, but there is very there are very few things that are good at taking whole things and making them into a fine or a uniform particle size over a wide range of things.
+
+[1:00:28] So, what I typically do, I use my uh coffee grinder, like the Hario style one, but I use the thin one. I've put I put it on my on my what's it called, Twitter uh a couple of times. The thing I can find it again, but then for something like cinnamon, you can pre-smash it or crack it into pieces because the problem with cinnamon is it's hard to feed into the burrs of that kind of a coffee grinder. The other things that a coffee grinder, like a like a burr-style coffee grinder can't do very well, is um things like cardamom. What happens is unless you take the the papery stuff off, the paper can align with the burrs, and then big chunks of fiber and paper come out through the burrs because they can just make it the thin way and they make it out.
+
+[1:01:11] And there's really nothing much you can do about that. But uh for the vast majority of things, some things like I say, cinnamon, you need to crack it up first. Then once it's cracked up, you can put it through a burr grinder. Uh, same with uh Star Anis and things like that. But cinnamon is you've chosen one of the tougher ones.
+
+[1:01:29] If you don't want a lot, I just microplane it if you only want small amounts, but that can be a pain in the butt for kind of large amounts. Because remember, microplanes are essentially wood rasps. Now, my partner Don at the bar says he read somewhere that the actual like pieces of s wood that are created by microplaning may be injurious to some people, but I haven't read the data, so I don't know, but I'm just letting you know. Um David Gabois wrote in uh per my question to Dave on Twitter, did you guys ever estimate the heat intensity of the Searsol when used with a burn somatic torch? Well, there's two, but uh we're gonna talk about the TS8000.
+
+[1:02:02] I'm a Searsol owner and it'll be useful to know about uh what the delivered watts per square centimeter is. This would help me evaluate whether I should even bother with other searing mechanisms, electric broilers on certain high-end wall ovens or outdoor propane broilers like the Auto Wild. Cheers and thanks in advance, David Gabois. Um you do in fact have Nastasia hasn't changed her email on this since 2013 because then she would just have to train people to use a different email address, which would be useless to you, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[1:02:27] Useless. What is that email address? It's my last name. Excellent. That would be my prime my private email.
+
+[1:02:37] And Dave confirms that you got his last name pronounced correctly, and he was amazed. Oh, well, you know. Anyway, uh so here's the thing. First of all, power is it's always a lie. Now I'm gonna give you numbers that make us sound really good from a marketing standpoint.
+
+[1:02:53] So I took my uh Searsol, I measured it, it's 67.75 uh millimeters across the screen. That is uh 36 square centimeters, which is five point five eight or five point five nine uh square inches. The burn zomatic TS-8000, when running on propane, which is all you should run it on, uh puts out 14,282 BTUs per hour. So BTUs per hour is a measure of power, BTUs is a measure of uh the energy, actual heat energy. Watts is a measure of power uh and watt hours is a measure of the actual amount of energy that you've put in.
+
+[1:03:35] So uh so BTUs per hour can convert to watts. So 14,282 BTUs per hour is uh equivalent to 4,185 watts. Uh and so what you have is in centimeters, you have 116 watts per square centimeter or 749 watts per square inch and 396 uh BTUs uh per hour per square centimeter and 2,555 uh BTUs per hour per square inch, which is an astronomically high number, but it's also a lie because a lot of that heat energy isn't being turned to radiation being put onto your onto your food, right? So and everyone who rates uh these things it like they lie and just say you know it's it's impossible to figure out the actual radiant power. Well, you will what you would need to do is get a small, and we could do this actually, I guess get a small unit and put it against it for a certain amount of time and then calculate how much energy has gone into using a FLIR camera or something like this, but just for giggles.
+
+[1:04:45] The problem with it is it's quite small, so then you have to average it over the entire area kind of where you're cooking. Maybe Nastasi and I someday will, you know, we have an we have other projects that are taking up all of our time, but maybe someday if there's interest, we'll make like my dream is to make a Searsol V8 that is like an absurd number of BTUs over a much larger thing. So the size of a normal salamander burner, but the intensity of a Searsol, uh, just to kind of with the instant on capability. But you know, that's probably what styles. If we ever do it, it's probably still a couple years out.
+
+[1:05:19] Uh guess who wrote in uh about grilling? Joey. Joey Lopez! How'd it be the last question? It's 115.
+
+[1:05:30] Well, you want me to do the nitro one real quick? Or do you want me to save the nitro one for next time? You should save it if it's not present because there's one pressing one from the chat, which is the can I can I throw this in here? All right. Uh it's probably pretty quick.
+
+[1:05:41] Elvin was he's in Tokyo right now. He's like a 10-minute walk away from the Kapabashi Kitchenware street this time. Nice. He's got a near-empty suitcase for this purpose. He's curious if anything, if there's anything in particular, you should be on the lookout for.
+
+[1:05:56] Well, I mean, what do you like? I mean, Nastasi and I were there, we bought the ice shaver, and then I carried it on my back back to the hotel, right? So, I mean, like the ice shavers are are great there. It's great for like you you need to go there with an idea. For those of you that don't know, it's like the Bowery of Tokyo, but it's like so hardcore.
+
+[1:06:17] And you you at the entrance to the street is like a giant fake chef on the on the on that building. Remember that? Giant fake chef. And it has the goofy, like, the goofy like squashed Italian-style French toque, right? Anyway, uh, on top of the building, and that's where you know you're in the right neighborhood.
+
+[1:06:36] A lot of what you can get there is available here, just it's there's more of it there, and the price may be better. But things like ice shavers, although they're quite heavy, I mean, obviously good place to shop for uh knives, but also like Japanese smallwares that you might not be able to get here and like um you know service implements that you might not might not be able to get what you like. Anastasia that's good advice. Anastasia's giving me what the come on question. Just get what you like.
+
+[1:07:02] Just get what you like. Anastasia all right so I have a question on uh on uh nitroheads for uh bar taps which I'll do next time in my discussion of uh of uh cascading effects with uh nitrogen uh nastasia's brother Joey Lopez and also all around nice guy where's he living now again Portland back in Portland what's he doing over there bartending okay he has a question about grills not really grill season he can wait a week right Joey can wait a week on the grill all right so in the last three minutes I'm gonna do a classics in the field that you actually have a lot to say about Nastasia. Three minutes okay ready yep okay this week in the field I didn't feel at that time I didn't feel my voice go I didn't feel it in my voice go all right I was gonna do a classics in the field and then when I was rereading it I realized that there were some issues with it and I didn't really feel like getting into the politics of the issues so I chose not to do it. But instead I was jumping from one frying pan into another one of the books that came out in 199 that was a big influence on me and I think a big influence on entire generation of uh cooks. So if you think about 1997.
+
+[1:08:17] Cook's Illustrated, which is super important, you know, started by uh Chris Kimball, came out in 1993. I have the original magazines, Cooks Illustrated. I can bring them in sometime too, because that whole year is basically a classics in the field. Cook's Illustrated 1993 should be a classics in the field. I'll bring it in, I have them all.
+
+[1:08:34] Uh Cha Damemba Nastasia, oh yeah. And that's like right when I got out of college, and that's right when I started reading that stuff. But uh a scant four years later, uh a guy named Jeffrey Steingarden wrote a book called The Man Who Ate Everything, which I always butcher and combine with the Oliver Sachs books, like The Man Who Ate Everything with a Hat, or The Man Who Mistook His Wife for Everything, because I somehow in my mind are kind of like I guess I was reading them at the same time. Anyway, uh Jeffrey Steingarten, he's still around. Uh what's the one of the reasons I bring this up for Nastasi and I uh kind of, you know, we became friends with him, so you know, we know him.
+
+[1:09:07] So Nastasia has a lot of personal stories that she can tell about. And he came on the show once, very early on in our in our in our tenure. But uh Jeffrey was the food editor at Vogue magazine, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense that Vogue would have a food magazine. But he would write a column for Vogue uh and then he compiled them. So he'd been doing them for quite a while.
+
+[1:09:33] He'd already kind of uh, you know, uh he compiled them into his first book, which is The Man That Ate Everything. And when it came out in 97, no one had ever written kind of uh a book like this. So he would take an individual subject. He he graduated, he's a Harvard law graduate, and I believe also Harvard. Uh and you know, he wrote for The Lampoon.
+
+[1:09:56] So he decided to, you know, quit lawyering and then become a writer. And he's a funny guy, right? He's a funny guy, acerbic and kind of problematic in in some ways. Very problematic, very acerbic, like to insult people, uh, have a lot of issues, but like kind of a very like gifted, talented guy. But what he would do is he would take any particular, and this influenced me very heavily, is that he would take uh any particular subject that he was interested in and then run it into the ground.
+
+[1:10:24] And he was the first person, I think. So Cooks Illustrated in '93 was running recipes into the ground with their pursuit for the perfect X, the perfect Y, the perfect Z, which I think is crazy because there is no perfect X, Y, or Z. But that was kind of how they made uh their bones, and they were very good at it, Cooks Illustrated. But the kind of other side of that same coin, the kind of Ur, so these two people, Cooks Illustrated and Jeffrey Steingarden, kind of started this whole deep dive into a subject, like I'm interested in mashed potatoes, so I'm gonna fly to Idaho and meet with O'Reita on how potato flakes are gonna be made, and then therefore, my and that was in this book actually, and therefore, and then that recipe, just to give you an idea, the his uh article on in here on uh potato uh on mashed potatoes and potato flakes ended up being a technique that was taken on by Joel Robouchon like years later, and then Jo uh Joel Robichon's recipe came back to the United States along with the kind of uh with Wiley and all these other guys. So it's like it was an extremely kind of important book, and I think people don't necessarily read it anymore.
+
+[1:11:37] I read some of the Amazon reviews, and if if this person, I bought this book at the recommendation of a friend. I like to read about chefs and food, but this book was way too scientific and way too preachy for my taste. I didn't finish it. If this sounds like you, don't read it. Uh, and then another person dislike a lot of people, a lot of the negative reviews of the book kind of dislike the tone, but you kind of just have to get down with his tone uh to get down with it.
+
+[1:12:06] And he gave me, I think the best advice uh is you shouldn't say anything about food unless you have eaten and cooked a lot of it. He's very much a believer in eating and experimenting, regardless of uh issues he might have. You want to talk about Snygarn a little bit? No, we don't have time. He's a great guy.
+
+[1:12:25] Yeah, he's he's a cervic. He definitely has an issue. His wife, by the way, is amazing. Crazy woman. Amazing.
+
+[1:12:32] Yeah, uh, Carol Smith, amazing. Karen Smith, rather. She's an amazing uh art historian. Leave it with that. Leave it with that.
+
+[1:12:40] Well, you won't want to explain the other stuff? No. All right, we can talk later if someone asked us questions in private. Come tell us in private and ask us. But she look, she was uh uh is a scholar of Buddhist art, and she was the first um what's it called?
+
+[1:12:53] Curator for the uh Rubin Museum here in New York, which is, you know, I I think Tibetan only, or or just all kinds of art around that region. All kinds of art. Anyway, uh, so she had studied uh, you know, Buddhist art and Asian art. She came up to me and she said the things that I use all the time, whenever whenever there's something wrong, something's happening, she goes to me, hey Dave, no choice, no problem. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:13:24] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage Radio network.org.
+
+[1:13:39] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:14:00] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Sherry Bayer, the host of All in the Industry on Heritage Radio Network. I'm thrilled to let you know about host Summit Plus Social, a new conference for and about the hospitality industry, taking place Monday, January 27, 2020, at the William Vale in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York City.
+
+[1:14:31] Based on my All in the Industry show, Host, which stands for Hospitality Operations, Services and Technology, will bring behind the scenes talent in hospitality to the forefront in a live format featuring guests from some of my most popular episodes, including Juneport, Rita Jamay, Crystal Mobiani, JJ Johnson, and Jeff Gordnier. Our event will include intimate panels, one-on-one interviews, industry news discussions, curated lunch conversations, and more. Plus, of course, we will have outstanding food and drink throughout the day, including an energizing closing reception. For more information and tickets, please go to all in the industry.com. And also please follow us at Allindustry on Instagram and Twitter.
+
+[1:15:20] I hope you will join us in celebrating our dynamic hospitality industry. Many thanks.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. Hello, welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cooking Shoes coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Really freaking late today from River's Pizza Read Bridge Burker.
+
+[0:25] A poor guy in Iowa. Oh, Jeeves on a stick. You don't care about it now. Just just tell him. Join as usual with Nastasia, the hammer Lopez.
+
+[0:34] Just tell him now. Nastasia, Nastassi and Nastasia Lopez. Tell me you don't care about him now, Dave. Matt in the booth! I care about that guy.
+
+[0:45] Hi. Ladies and gentlemen. Matt in the booth! Hello. How are you doing?
+
+[0:48] Anything good happened in the past uh whatever? Week? Uh uh. No. I should be more prepared for this.
+
+[0:57] Alright, listen. The week after Valentine's Day. So I don't know how far away that is. Like the week that it contains like the 17th of February. I will be in Belgium.
+
+[1:09] I will be causing a bedlam in Belgium, so we will not be here. Are you gone before then, Stas? Are we here? Is that two weeks we have? I have no idea what I'm saying.
+
+[1:16] Feels like that would be two. Anyway. Call in your cooking or unrelated questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. I'm assuming I'm not even gonna ask you whether you've had interesting food-related stuff because your answer is always no, and then I just sit here feeling like a legged jerk for asking you.
+
+[1:35] I had dinner with Ariel last night at Gotham. Oh, how's Ariel doing? She's good. I asked her to come on, but she said no. I hate he's always late.
+
+[1:42] How do I know what time to do? Yeah, she's not say that. Shots fire. She did not say she did not say that. I'm such a jerk weed.
+
+[1:49] So uh by the way, fun fact about Nastasia Lopez. Oh no. Fun fact. Is this what I told you yesterday? No, what did you tell me yesterday?
+
+[1:58] Ooh, but now I add that one in. Oh, by the way, uh, if there's time and you're interested, an incredibly gross story to tell you. Okay. Incr disgusting. Stomach turning.
+
+[2:08] Well, maybe we save that for lunch. I feel like we just went on a tangent from a tangent, and it made me think. It made me think of the movie Inception. And what I want a cooking list, uh, cooking issues listener to do is figure out how many levels of tangent have we gone before on the show. What's the deepest we've gone into the dream?
+
+[2:25] It almost always comes back. It almost always comes back. It gets more dangerous the more level levels you go. I thought this was what I texted you guys, like the the Bojack Horseman thing. Oh, I didn't see that.
+
+[2:35] What? I didn't I gotta- I love Bojack Horseman. You met one of the actors, one of the voice actors? No, I had somebody tell me you are like Bo Jack Horseman. I've told you that millions of times.
+
+[2:48] Well, everybody who knows you knows that you are the female human version of BoJack Horseman. This is like, I don't know what character I am. I'm maybe that goat. Or he's not a goat. The guy played.
+
+[2:59] I've never seen it. Uh well, you know. I don't even know what that means. You don't need to watch it, you know. If you lived in LA and were a former child, uh former like TV star, washed out TV star, you would be Bo Jack Horseman.
+
+[3:11] You know what sucked is that when he said it, I thought of you, and I was like, oh. Yeah, that's rough. Oh no, I didn't even know to bring this up. That's awesome. No.
+
+[3:21] Alright, wait, what was the fun fact? The fun fact about Nastasia Lopez is well, I've said this one on air. This is to give you a flavor for Nastasia's mindset in general, is that Nastasia will never allow herself to go to the Billy Joel concert. Wait, are you going? Is there one coming up?
+
+[3:37] There's one every month. Yeah. Maybe I will. Anyway. Even though there's nothing she would love more than to see this Billy Joel concert, she won't go because she missed that one ticket.
+
+[3:46] Like a little bit of a channel. If they were doing a vegan event. I mean, it's all of it was so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so another fun fact about Nastasia Lopez is that she loves, loves.
+
+[3:57] I mean, loves. When I say loves, I mean lives for Saturday Night Live. Loves Saturday Live. No, are you going? No, no, no, of course.
+
+[4:05] You're the one who you spend your whole life arranged around Saturday Night Live. And so, but Nastasia will not watch it if she misses it. She must Saturday. She must see it live. Nastasia, have you connected with Kat Johnson about this love?
+
+[4:19] No, just like she loves SNL. But the important part is that she will not watch it on YouTube the next day. She must watch it live. And then I read the A V Club review sending that. I don't even know what that means.
+
+[4:34] But like, all I'm saying is that it's the weirdest thing is that if she misses it, she's like, I missed it and I'll never see it. Yes. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? Isn't that weird, Matt? It's the same sketch, whether you see it.
+
+[4:46] And like, I was like, you know, you could set up at D VR, you could record it. She wants to be part of the full experience. Yeah. You're not, though. You're not.
+
+[4:57] A lot of people do this. A lot of people do that. Okay, I would like to hear from the a lot of people. It's one thing to say you want to watch it live, but to refuse to watch it in any other format, it's not a football game. I know who won Saturday Night Live, crap!
+
+[5:10] Did you? And now you can't watch it anymore. All I'm gonna say is that I did not watch it live, but I saw the skits afterwards. Adam Driver was hilarious. You are the science guy in that.
+
+[5:19] I didn't see that skit. What? That is you. The best skit ever. If you haven't seen it, first of all.
+
+[5:24] No, Dave, oh. First of all, the Del Taco. No, Del Taco. You like that one? It was so hilarious.
+
+[5:31] Jen and I, my wife, Jen and I were almost pissing ourselves. Are you serious? You're like, you're like a perfect. Oh man, I'm out of cash! And they just make them say it over and over and over again, and it's all identical.
+
+[5:42] He does Cornholio. I did not like it. Oh, that was so freaking funny. I almost died. Wow.
+
+[5:48] And the Marion Ketchup? I thought you'd appreciate that. I didn't like that one either. What the hell? Yeah.
+
+[5:53] You know about Marion Ketchup. Yes. I thought it was like, oh wow, they're referencing something in our industry. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[5:59] Obviously, I like undercover boss. Everybody likes undercover boss. You have to watch the science guy. That's you. That was that was you.
+
+[6:06] I didn't see it. I have no idea. I didn't see it. Anyway, that's the fun fact about Nastasia for the day. Yeah.
+
+[6:12] Is that she will not watch a YouTube version of the Saturday Light? What about Medieval Times? I didn't really like that one. I bet did you like that one? Of course, because it was ridiculous.
+
+[6:24] You still don't like Adam Driver. Did you like the cold open? Yeah, I like the cold open. You know, anything with uh Kate McKinnon. Anyway.
+
+[6:31] Uh and John Lovitz. I didn't, yeah, you didn't do so good. He's John Lovitz. The whole idea of John, but there's not cooking stuff, so if you're not into like old Saturday Live, you might not know who I'm talking about. The whole idea of John Lovitz is the man does not give a crap.
+
+[6:46] He's the guy that like says inappropriate things at people's funerals. Like, in the real life, the man just doesn't give a rat's behind. And all comedians love him. Mm-hmm. John Lovits.
+
+[6:57] Anyway. Before we get into food, Devin wants to know. He asks Nastasia in particular how Claire's career clarity success team is going. Okay. It is going well.
+
+[7:07] And Dave. She will not come, she will not come on the show. I really want her to come on the show, and I want you guys to patch things up because. Wait, how wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How am I gonna patch things up?
+
+[7:14] This is classic Nastasia. Organizes organizes, organizes a situation where she can use other people to beat on her friends, and then like somehow blames me. You organize the whole thing. Anyway, I would like for her to come on, and I want you guys to patch it up. There is no patching to be done.
+
+[7:38] Her career um coaching is going well, and if you want to join her thing, uh I don't know. What would wait? So Claire, you know, for those of you that with that kind of call to act. So Claire, Claire, for those of you that don't know, she's the vegetti queen. She's She's my best friend.
+
+[7:56] She's the uh what's it called? Uh the wedding planner. She has a great officiant. Yeah, wedding officiant. Uh anyway, so like I don't even understand what it would mean to patch it up.
+
+[8:05] Just be nice. I just want you guys to. I don't ever see her. The one time I did try to see her, I tried to hook her up on a date. Dave, don't.
+
+[8:12] Anyway, like I never see her. I don't know of anything I have to patch up. It's like in order to patch something up, there needs to be a hole in something. It's all whole right now. It's not that there's all vegetables.
+
+[8:24] There's no there's no like, there's no edges of a hole to which to apply a patch. Okay. That can be sewn in. We're gonna have Claire on. It's gonna be nice.
+
+[8:34] That's all. Oh, my brother wants you to answer his question too. The um First of all, the Joey, Joey Lopez. Yeah, love Joey Lopez, by the way. Good guy.
+
+[8:45] Nastasia Lopez likes to make fun of her family and friends. But for those of you that don't know, Joey Lopez, nice guy. Good guy. Yeah. He had a question, which I have here.
+
+[8:56] It's near the top because it was from last week. Do you have any recommendation for the best indoor grill that won't smoke up the apartment? Last time we grilled outdoors, it was a big cottonwood bloom and the smoke was going everywhere. Thanks, Joey Lopez. Now I don't quite understand.
+
+[9:08] So cottonwood. Yeah. Cottonwood. For those of you that don't know, Cottonwood, uh, it's this tree, very, I believe it's in the um, I think it's in the aspen family. Anyway, it's got like twittery leaves that are like kind of little diamond, not diamondy, but what's that shape?
+
+[9:27] Uh speed. Yeah, yeah, kind of shape leaves. And uh I was making a shape with my hands, people. And then at a certain time of year, they release these tufts of garbage, and then your entire, the entire air is full of these tufts of garbage. Hands cottonwood trees.
+
+[9:42] Uh, but I don't quite understand. Like, how is he having a recent like was this like last spring he was doing like well? Yeah. Oh, okay, because it's not anywhere near Cottonwood time now. And was he worried that he was gonna light all these cottonwood things on fire and then they were gonna I don't know that I don't know that that's a problem.
+
+[9:57] I've never stood out in a massive amount of cottonwood with a torch and tried to see whether I could like you know, incendiary my whole neighborhood. By the way, why is it that people aren't worried about those paper lanterns that you light up in fire and they fly flaming? I went into my neighbor's house in Connecticut. What happened to your neighbor? She was freaked out.
+
+[10:17] But but did you say it was someone else? No, she saw me. Oh, whatever I see them, I buy them for you because I know you love them. But like, why do people not freak out about them? I don't know.
+
+[10:24] Apparently, your neighbor does. Apparently they do if they come into their house on fire. Not in, but also I would like to know, because I've never been able to do it, how you get a permit for slash don't worry about controlled burns on your property. You know what I'm saying? Like, I understand like making a mound of leaves creating a giant fire break, but the people who have like large amounts of property that do controlled burns in in their forest, how the hell do you do that?
+
+[10:49] Like, how the hell do you get permission to light a fire like that? How does that work? I don't think it works in New York. I don't think you can do that crap. Anyway.
+
+[10:58] I don't know. Also, that was the inciting incident. Remember the like the Bundies, the guys who took over that thing in or in Oregon, the government land in Oregon? That was the inciting incident. Was they were doing a controlled burn and the feds came down on them?
+
+[11:10] And so you're saying it wasn't a controlled burn? Well, it wasn't a permitted burn. Ah. So which Bundys are these? Not the murderous Ted Bundies, a different group of Bundies, not the Bundies from Married with Children.
+
+[11:21] These were the ones who made headlines when they took over some state land in Oregon and got a bunch of guys with guns together and well, you know what? You know what you probably shouldn't do? Burn anything on state land. Explain how we got to the Houdini house. No, that's too dark.
+
+[11:38] Just do it. You do it. No, because somebody at the Houdini party was like, so how did you come up with this party? Well, we were gonna try to get the ranch where the Manson family lived. But it was A too dark and B doesn't exist anymore because it burned down.
+
+[11:54] And then what did we move to after that? Somehow something else horrible. Something else. Like Nastasi's like, we're gonna do a party in Jarrett Leto's house. I'm like, why?
+
+[12:04] Because that's where they did all of the editing for the nuclear war films. Too dark. And then I'm like, we're gonna turn it into a Mofed fundraiser. And basically, and then Dave was like, so that's why we're here. And the prison was like, wow.
+
+[12:20] I gotta go get a drink. You know what I mean? I gotta go. Anyone got past apps? I'm just gonna go.
+
+[12:27] This is Laurel Kenyon. There's other stuff to do here, right? Goodbye. That's why that's pretty much what happened. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:36] Like, if you if you wanna like one of the more fun things to do is to try to like work real hard, set something up, and then just sit there, stand there dead faced, talking to the people you've invited to your party and just scaring them the hell away from you. They're like, I just never want to. You know how many times people, I just never want to see those people again. That's what they say about us. Oh my god.
+
+[13:02] I think our party went till like 2 a.m. or something, right? Yeah, something like that. We gotta wake up at six and push a dumpster up the hill. Yeah.
+
+[13:11] That's life, people. I'm telling you. So anyone that thinks that we've made it or we're making lots of money. For anyone out there, for anyone out there who's in their like, you know, lower 20s, and you're the kind of person that likes to, you know, work with your hands, or like, let's say you're in a group, you know, a uh a band and you have like all your equipment and you're hauling it around and you're like, someday, someone else will haul my equipment. Nope, not there.
+
+[13:36] It's never gonna happen. Listen, if you like working with your hands and you like making things, you're hosed. Pretty much your host. Hey, Dave. Do some sort of pencil pushing job.
+
+[13:46] When I woke you up in that morning, what did you did two things? What did you do? Change it underwear, brush your teeth a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.
+
+[13:55] Yeah, yeah. Shony change, scrub the film off the teeth and go. Wait, so there's no barbecue for my brother. So there is no good indoor grill because uh, like if fundamentally, the problem of smoke indoors is uh, and actually we have a a hood problem, you know, that to get to later, but it's just it's the primary thing. So for instance, even like a Searzole is not gonna it it's gonna make a lot of smoke, it just doesn't make the smoke before and after the way that like a cast iron pan would.
+
+[14:24] But there's just very little way to do high temperature work without smoke. The it is possible, uh, I don't know whether I ever talked about it on on air, but where there is uh where there is smoke, there is low temperature fire, right? So fundamentally smoke is uncombusted stuff. If you had a hot enough thing, you could probably re-combust the smoke. So for those of you that have ever um roasted coffee, it produces an unbelievable amount of choking kind of you know smoke.
+
+[14:56] Uh but if you take a uh a high-powered torch, for instance, the burns Matic TS8000, and you light that torch in front of the opening where the smoke is coming out, you can burn all that smoke clean, right? So it's possible to build like a catalytic smoke burner, and some coffee roasters have like a little afterburner catalytic or either not really catalytic, but an afterburner where it's burning the smoke to make it clear so it's not choking everything up. And theoretically, I guess it would be possible to do that for a grill as well, but I just don't know how much heat input you'd need to be able to re-burn your smoke. It might be more than the amount of heat needed to actually grill the thing. So you'd be doubling the heat output.
+
+[15:36] But it might be physically possible. I don't know. On this note, I can talk about it because we have the patent, Nastasi, and ain't nobody can rip us off. I started work. This is not the product that Nastassi and I were talking about.
+
+[15:48] I'm sad. It's gonna take forever. Oh, geez. If you wanted to be on an unpleasant telephone call. Well, it's unpleasant for many reasons.
+
+[15:56] It was oh so unpleasant. First of all, like we couldn't get through, and Nastasi was at a clerb and she wouldn't leave the club because she was. I'm not gonna say she's she would not leave the club. Even though she knew that she had to be on this telephone call. And then she kept like her face must have been sweaty because it kept demuting the freaking phone.
+
+[16:15] Yeah, people, you know what I'm talking about? Your face is sweaty, it demutes the phone. So like it would demute, and I'll be like, for the love of God, mute your phone! Like that. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:24] And she was because like we were we were already having an intensely unpleasant conversation about the people at the factory in China basically saying that the next product that we're gonna make is not gonna be available until March 2021. Now we were supposed to be happy before that. I know, I'm hosed. I'm real hosed, I'm hosed real hard. Anyway, this is not that product.
+
+[16:47] So we're not even gonna be announcing it probably until January of 2021 for a March launch. But we hope it's gonna be big. We hope the economy hasn't tanked, because we need all of you guys to have a little bit of cash to buy this product. Am I right? But you're gonna love it if you don't love it.
+
+[17:04] I I can't imagine that anyone that listens to this program is not gonna love that product, right? Yeah, but anyway, on a separate note, and right in, see how much you would pay for this thing I'm gonna talk about, which I can talk about on air. We're working on the Sears All V8, the kind of infinity war of broilers, right? So it's eight times as much energy as goes in to a Searsol. It's over well, actually a little less than eight times.
+
+[17:29] It's gonna be a hundred thousand BTUs. 100,000 BTUs, the power of the sun on your porch. But the problem is, I don't think I can make it available for indoor use. I think it's just too much power for indoor use. Just for just for kind of randomly so like a commercial stove if you take all like all like four to six burners and the salamander is about the same amount.
+
+[17:54] It's about five times more powerful than a regular gas salamander burner and about the same size. So crazy. But I think it's gonna have to be outdoor only. I don't know. But the question is how much and it's gonna be broiler style and it'll have like a probably a timer ignition so you'll click it on and it'll only stay on for 15 minutes and then turn off or you could you know up the timer a little bit but just because it's not you know shouldn't leave a hundred thousand BTU burner on that long.
+
+[18:22] You know what I'm saying? Anyway, how much by the way for those of you that use a Searsol like one of the things about Searsol is you have to keep moving it around because it's small. But if you had that much power in a large format so the burner area is about 200 millimeters by 400 millimeters the question is I have to experiment with it. It might be too powerful. It might just be too powerful.
+
+[18:43] I don't know but uh tweet on to us or call on and if you have any interest how powerful is um Elon Musk's flamethrower. Well flamethrowers did see here's the other thing people talk about a lot about power it's called not a flamethrower because the word flamethrower has legal connotations to it. And you know what flamethrowers like are really disgusting I'm going to the uh battlefield where flamethrowers were first used in a couple of weeks in Belgium it was a horrible war world war one all war is horrible but like World War I was an intensely bad war but if you could imagine you brought up flamethrowers. If you could imagine, I'm trying to imagine a worse way than someone painting you with burning uh petroleum product that you can't wipe off and that doesn't go out when you go underwater. I can't think of a worse way to go.
+
+[19:28] You know what I mean? Um anyway, I mean, I'm sure there are worse ways. I mean, I've caught on fire. I mean, I know what it's like to be on fire. Anyway, uh the it's not it's not fun, but it doesn't, it didn't really hurt at the time, but that's because I didn't burn long enough to die.
+
+[19:43] I just burned long enough to get third-degree burns. I'm sure that if I had stayed on fire longer, it would have hurt while it was happening. At the time, it's just too much adrenaline. But in every movie I've seen where people are burning to death, they're screaming. So I don't know whether they're screaming because they're freaked out or whether they're in immense pain.
+
+[19:59] I don't know, but all I know is that I wasn't in pain until afterwards when I caught on fire. Or I can't remember the pain. Anyway, I remember the pain afterwards. Uh so a flamethrower, when you're talking about the whole point of a uh when you're measuring heat, BTUs, that's just a measure of how much energy you're using. In a flamethrower, you're throwing that energy for a long distance and nine-tenths of it's wasted, right?
+
+[20:23] So the thing with a with a Searsol is that it's supposed to concentrate and make the actual heat useful instead of spraying it out in all directions, which is why it's extremely lightweight and has the insulation on the inside. So it's trying to take most of the energy and instead of radiating it backwards, radiate it forwards. That's the that's the idea. And this new uh design is I'm trying to take advantage of some of the spillover from the edges of it to kind of bring it back into the middle to try to get all of that energy inside of the face of the of the Sears All V8, the infinity war of broilers, and uh and try to make it anyway. Maybe too powerful.
+
+[20:58] Well, I don't know, it might be too powerful. I don't even know whether I can make an indoor version of it, but like, I don't know, see whether there's any interest out there in cooking issues land for this sort of thing. Uh so I don't know of an indoor solution for you, Joey. I'm sorry. Most of this stuff inside's just just not good.
+
+[21:13] Just terrible. Just bad. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Get a Sears all Joker.
+
+[21:18] Oh, yeah, that's you. I can see what it's like. Uh Get a Sears all Joker. Uh why does it say Joey Lopez and then Pina? Oh, because I was writing Pinya Calada about somebody else's question.
+
+[21:29] Should we answer that question? No. Go to the next one. Oh, Steve? Oh.
+
+[21:33] So do you remember his? Can we call up his. It's the greatest poem. It was the greatest accidental poem I've ever been written. That was written to us by uh Steve Yun.
+
+[21:46] Uh yeah. And he caught and he when he wrote this question in from Los Angeles, it's not really a question, it's more of a statement. He said, Steve Yoon Fish Poet from Los Angeles, uh, regarding wine Santa. Despite Dave's poo-pooing, I believe your wine Santa projects, I believe in your wine Santa projects, and made one of my own for a Christmas party, which by the way, I know you don't like other people making their own. It makes me angry.
+
+[22:09] But well, by the way, I made you, he's gonna talk about the Oscars here, but I made you a dog for wine Grammy, and we didn't do it this year. Is it because you don't care about the Grammys? Um I do, but I don't, yeah. We didn't have a connection this year. Do you still have the wine Grammy dog?
+
+[22:25] If any of you are involved in the musical industry business, and you desire to have an RCA dog. Well, it's the Grammy. Isn't the RCA dog on the Grammy? Isn't it don't they have? No, we maybe.
+
+[22:39] Anyway, the RCA, you know, listening to the master thing, that dog, we have a statue of that dog that we've drilled out, ready for the wine tube, and it's gonna spit into the phonograph, like uh what's the the bell of the Eddis of the Victorla phonograph that the dog is listening to, and that's gonna be the wine Grammy. Yeah. It's gonna be sick. You said so but that Steve, so wait, should I do Steve's poem? Yeah, let's hear the poem.
+
+[23:08] I I I can never get enough of it. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish. I got to try some of this in Amberjack. Kompachi. Uh I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish.
+
+[23:31] I got to try some of this. An amberjack. Kompache. This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. The food service industry faces a challenge.
+
+[23:47] More people are eating out, yet restaurants are losing talent. Why is this? Research by Fair Kitchens reveals a serious well-being issue within professional kitchens. 74% of chefs are sleep deprived to the point of exhaustion. 63% of chefs feel depressed, and more than half feel pushed to the breaking point.
+
+[24:09] This can't be ignored. Fair Kitchens is a movement based on the belief that a positive kitchen culture makes for a healthier business. By taking the pledge to be a fair kitchen, they'll provide you with free information, tools, and resources to help you take action towards making your restaurant more stable, productive, and happy, which positively affects the guest experience. It's time to act now. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com.
+
+[24:42] There is a caller on the line with a question about poetry. Oh, all right. Well, wait. Uh yeah, wait one. Uh I would like to see Nastasia expand to get more mileage out of your mannequins.
+
+[24:52] So, how about doing a wine Oscar for award season? It only needs a $30 like with a like resuit, Steve Young Fish Poet. And there's a there's a uh That's a good I'll do that. I'll have a guy I mean an Oscar party, I'll do that. But what the heck is the Oscar statue gonna spit out if it's got a blank face?
+
+[25:06] Well, I yeah, I don't know. We'll figure it out. All right. Caller, you're on the air. Oh hey, this is Wes.
+
+[25:12] I actually emailed in because I didn't know if I'd get time to call in. I was the guy who emailed about the vacuum chamber thing. Oh, sure, great. I uh looked at that. So go ahead.
+
+[25:19] You want us to ask your question or you want me to read your question? Yeah, yeah. Well, so I mean I can just ask it. Basically, um I want to be able to like for spinzoling, I want to be able to get some bubbles out of fruit fruit purees first, and also vacuum compressed things and vacuum infuse them, and I don't really need the ceiling function of a vacuum chamber, plus it's really expensive. And so uh I was just looking into some of these cheap Amazon things where they basically have a no-name generic rotary vein uh pump and a pressure valve and a big pot that has a lid on it that you can depressurize.
+
+[25:50] And it's just seeing if that looked legit or not. Yeah, uh, okay. By the way, for those of you that don't know, uh I like what you wrote afterwards. You're like, I'm the jerk, and you capitalize it so that I would pronounce it properly. Dirt!
+
+[26:01] Who forgot to mention that your sister doesn't eat oysters when you were doing the uh her wedding, uh but you did the uh bottled compari spritz and you enjoyed it and just oh yes, pictures of the wedding. I have to look at it later. I can't read and look far away because I'm wearing reading glasses. I'm old. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:16] Anyway, so what uh Wes sent to me was the a blaze, which is like you know, one of those random Amazon-only brands, a blaze, which which is a terrible name for any sort of electric equipment, right? If you're gonna plug it in, you don't want it to catch on fire. You don't want your vacuum pump to catch on fire. But anyway, uh it's a stainless steel vacuum degassing chamber and three cubic feet per minute single stage uh pump. Uh and it's a 1.5 gallon uh steel container, and it goes for uh 155 bucks.
+
+[26:47] Uh so for those of you that don't know, uh what these are are kind of refrigeration vacuum pumps, oil-based vacuum pumps with a little handle on them. And then there's a hose that goes to a plastic lid, and on the plastic lid, which you can see through, on the plastic lid, there's a kind of a rubber seal, and then there's a usually a stainless steel pot that it fits on top of, and then a series of ons and offs on the top and and a gauge to measure the fact that there's vacuum. And what they're sold for typically is for people who are using uh resin, like plastic resin or silicone resin to degas it. Because when you're when you're casting plastics, um plastic is like the plastic resin and the rubber resin is typically very thick. There's a lot of air bubbles that you get just by mixing it, and they can spoil, they can spoil your casting.
+
+[27:34] In fact, they will spoil your casting. Now, there's two ways you can work around this. One is by putting the resin in, applying a vacuum that causes those bubbles to inflate, therefore rise to the surface of this thick liquid and pop, uh, and that's vacuum degassing. Uh the other thing you can do, in case this becomes casting issues instead of cooking issues, is you can take your resin, you can do both of these. You could take your resin, and after you pour it, you put the thing as it's curing under pressure at like 60, 70 PSI.
+
+[28:04] And when you put it under pressure in a pressure pot, the opposite of a vacuum, all of the bubbles that are in it shrink down to a tiny size, and then once the resin sets, there's not enough pressure left in those bubbles to kind of hurt the product at all. And you can get a very, very bubble-free casting. In fact, more bubble-free usually than you can get using a vacuum. When I'm back when I used to do more of this stuff, I did both because I had both a pressure, uh, a pressure vessel and a uh vacuum degasser. But vacuum degassers work great.
+
+[28:32] There's the issue here, and this is not a bad price. So for 155 bucks, you get a gallon and a half uh pot and a three uh cubic foot pump. Now single stage pump. Now the the pump is kind of a weenie size, right? And so usually in vacuum degassing, you're just getting rid of gas, you're not getting rid of moisture, right?
+
+[28:56] You're not like evaporating moisture off of it. And I've built many of these rigs myself over the years, many, many of these rigs over myself. And for the price, I think it's decent. So you could go and get uh on Amazon, the same place, you could get a three vac uh three-gallon vacuum chamber similar to the one which is fundamentally a large round Bain Marie and a, you know, you can use a pot, they're great. The issue you need to make sure is don't use something square, because typically square things will crush, and don't use uh something that has too thin of a gauge of stainless or under the vacuum, it'll crush.
+
+[29:28] Uh, but you can get one for 99 bucks, uh, a three gallon, and I would go for three gallon unless you really need the storage space because a lot of things are gonna like um inflate rather dramatically, and you don't want it to hit the lid. Uh, it's not so good. And then if you ever do use it for um degassing of resins, you're gonna want to stick the resin in a large bucket inside of your vacuum degassing chamber so that you don't get the resin in your on your stainless chamber, because that's not what you're trying to do. The other thing you gotta worry about, the gauge on top is fundamentally useless, by the way, because you're gonna be sucking a much deeper vacuum than that gauge can ever measure uh measure. So I don't even know why they bother putting that gauge on it.
+
+[30:08] It's just I guess to see whether you have any vacuum at all, is that uh on those cheap pumps, if you don't turn them off and on in the right order, you can back siphon the uh vacuum oil, which you definitely don't want to do uh into your product, but it's got the two handles, which which is fine. But um for food applications, you can use that three C C Fm pump, but it's gonna take a while to get there. It's just kind of small. Uh vacuum pumps are available for three a three to four CFM like the one that they're gonna have is about 60 bucks. But a seven CFM, which is gonna do it about twice as fast, is about is 115 to 150 dollars.
+
+[30:43] And the kind that I like, the really hefty 12 CFMs are like 199. If you really want to go totally, you know, crazy on it for 250, you can get a uh dual stage pump. Now, the problem with any of these pumps is you need to change the vacuum oil uh on them or keep them in good condition and they run rather hot. Uh the nice thing about the one that you looked at online is it's got a filter so that as it warms up, the uh stuff that comes out of it, it's got muffler is gonna make it a little quieter, I hope, but you don't want to filter it because you don't want a lot of that oil mist making it into your kitchen. And as the oil heats up uh with the liquid in it and the liquid boils out, it's gonna create an oil mist.
+
+[31:23] And the more liquid that you're boiling out, the worse the mist is, and it's not pleasant to have that um vacuum oil volatilize not volatiling, but misting into your into your kitchen. But yeah, it it'll work. Um yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah all right, cool.
+
+[31:39] Oh, so I mean, would would I be? Should I just make my own uh I was thinking about this and you know it's not a bad price I if I if I was doing it I would probably get a bigger vacuum pump and just buy the chamber that the the by the three gallon chamber that the other person made. Uh 3 C FM is a little bit small and it's gonna be a small pump but the seven CFMs aren't appreciably bigger physically bigger. I mean they're a little bit bigger but they're not a lot bigger. The problem with making your own is you gotta like tap the thing you gotta get the seals all right and you know it's it's nice to have something if somebody's made that it it fits.
+
+[32:21] The advantage of making your own is that I can put mine on any pot that I own because I made the seal like really wide so it'll fit on almost any pot that I own which is nice. But on the other hand the visibility in mine isn't as good because I don't have as big of a clear spot because there's a larger area of seal. You know what I mean? But in terms of just cleanliness and ease of doing it I don't think that's an unfair price. Cool.
+
+[32:47] All right cool uh Chris wrote in I have a Kindle copy of Liquid Intelligence and unfortunately it's not possible for me to make out the details of the cocktail balance at a glance graphic. I like the quantitative approach uh Dave has outlined uh is there any way to get a higher resolution copy of this image electronically without also buying a hard copy of the book wow I mean Dave only worked on that book for how many years and no you should not buy the book why would you do that? I look he he o owns a Kindle copy the real problem is is that no one no one who's set up at at Norton who did the Kindle thing talk to me about it at all. They don't talk to the authors about what the Kindle book looks like. If someone buys the Kindle copy, they should be able to see the full, you know, resolution image.
+
+[33:34] But I looked online, I even looked on the Amazon, look inside of, and I wasn't able to get that graphic up. I actually can't put it up online because then I would be violating the Norton copyright. You know? You can't take a photo and post it on your Twitter? I mean, I guess, but then it's not gonna be any higher resolution.
+
+[33:53] I mean, the data is there in the answer. I mean, but maybe maybe Chris doesn't like having I mean, like, unlike me, maybe Chris doesn't like having a bunch of books around. It's also a good separator for hot and cold food, so multi-purpose. That is true. Uh Charlie wrote in, and this goes to Joey's question.
+
+[34:10] Uh, which is by the way, the only use Nastasia has for nine out of ten cooking books, but I've been told that mine is ideal. Just the right size for a casserole dish. You really nailed it, Dave. You know what I mean? Feels good.
+
+[34:22] Well, Nastasi was there in a lot of meetings with Maria, my editor. And so, you know, we'd be looking at different sizes of books, and Nastas would be like, too big won't say flat in my tote. And you had no idea why I was yes. Look, Nastasia, why do you care if my book will lie flat in your tote? Never mind, it's just important.
+
+[34:39] Believe me. Believe me. I was like, well, we can print it on this paper. No, no, no, no. Too thick.
+
+[34:45] What about this one? No, too thin. It's no, it's too much heat transfer between the pages. Jeez, Nastasi has all these opinions about the dimensions of the book. It's crazy.
+
+[34:58] An eye for detail. Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah. She she tried to go for a waterproof cover, but we couldn't afford it.
+
+[35:06] So this way she could just throw it in the dishwasher with the casserole thing. Charlie writes in, hey there, had a question about DIYing a hood vent. I'm living in an apartment with no ventilation. Uh feel you, man. That's why I went ventilation crazy once I could.
+
+[35:25] And doing a lot of high temperature and high volume cooking, usually ending up with a completely smoked out apartment. I have a window about five feet from my range, and I'm thinking about building some sort of a hood with a box fan. Which by the way, the problem with the word box fan is it can mean any size from well, Nastasi has a different problem with the word box fan. No, no, no, I'm not thinking about that. Oh, sure you're not.
+
+[35:44] That's like what Booker says when Booker laughs about something he shouldn't and then says I was thinking about something else. Okay. Uh box fan can mean anything down from like the little muffin fans up to like the big ones in your window. They're tend to be not that powerful box fan. Anyway, uh a furnace filter.
+
+[36:01] You don't want a furnace filter. Look, okay, I'll finish the question. And some flexible HVAC tubing. I mainly need to figure out what hardware store piece I should use as a collector to go over the range. And was wondering if y'all had any advice on how to do this relatively well and safely.
+
+[36:14] Thanks, Charlie. Listen, there's two things you've asked, and they are separate. There is how to do it well, and there is how to do it safely. These are two separate things. What I did back in the day, and it worked very well, but was not safe, was I bought two crappy um Home Depot slash Lowe's Brone uh hoods, uh, and I screwed them together back to back, and then I just put them very, very close to the thing I was cooking on, and then put a straight pipe out my window.
+
+[36:52] So uh that'll work. Uh the the issue is the problem with a filter, any sort of fil uh furnace filter, is uh you're gonna throw grease up into that thing, and occasionally have flames leaping up and other stuff, it becomes a tremendous fire hazard. So for you to try to put um you know, a uh anything other than a stainless steel designed filter in the way to trap grease on the way out is gonna cause problems. The other thing is is that any sort of tubing is gonna get grease in it and is also gonna become a fire hazard, which is why there's a lot of specifications about the um fans and whatnot that are used in ventilation systems and why they have to vent a certain distance out of your window because at any second, going back to another section of our uh thing today. Remember, Matt, it always goes back.
+
+[37:41] Uh you become a flamethrower out of the side of your building, right? Now, I'm presuming that you're not worried about throwing a lot of uh you know oil vapor into your neighbors, although you you should, right? Uh but what what you want is the fewest amounts of turn in your uh pipe. And the fewest amount. You want the largest bore and the fewest amounts of turns, and you definitely don't want pipe that has ridgies in it.
+
+[38:10] You definitely don't want like flexible HVAC piping that is has a bunch of ridgies in it to capture grease because now you've just made your life more and more unsafe by capturing even more grease in those rigid things. So the the most unsafe thing that I did that worked okay was I took two of those crappy uh hoods, uh bolted them together, and just put them, I forget how I joined them into a pipe, and I just put a straight shot angled pipe directly out the window with one of those one of those what what's this motion I'm making? The flapper, the little flapper things on it that you know that that you know. It's like a doggy door. Yeah, yeah, like a doggy door on the thing, uh, and then fire it out.
+
+[38:50] They're loud as hell, and when you stick them, you know, only a foot and a half, foot and a half over a uh, you know, 60, I forget what I had, 60, 70, 80,000 BTU uh deep fryer. I ended up melting most of the internal components of the hood, so I'm not gonna say it was safe, but man, it evacuated a professional fryer fine, such that you couldn't smell it in the in the rest of the place. Uh, but it's not code, it's not safe. It is cheap though, and does work. So, uh what do you think, Matt?
+
+[39:23] Is I clear on the not safe? Yeah, you were clear on the not safe. Clear on the not safe. I already had as the first uh sentence of this description. We talk about a variety of ways to burn a building down.
+
+[39:32] So we're we're pretty much covered here. Yeah, and like I say, it it we always end up going back to, you know, we we make it back from our tangents. Jesse writes in about pasata. Uh you like you like you ever make that stuff with the tomatoes where you put it through the whole time you lived in Italy, then I guess, no? You weren't in the south, you were in the north.
+
+[39:49] Just through a thing? Yeah, you you scoop out the seeds, you cook the you cook the tomatoes either by themselves or you boil them, and then you you let them drain, and then you put them through the thing that gets rid of all the skins and the leftover seeds, and you get the passata, you put it in the in the jars or bottles, you heat it, and then you have the you have it for the rest of the year. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[40:09] Uh I grew a lot of tomatoes and make a hefty volume of passata every fall. I can't find much information on whether freezing or can't, by the way, pasata. Fantastic clarified tomato water. The best. The best.
+
+[40:22] The best. Um because it doesn't have the seeds uh and the skin. The skin is the bitter part of the tomato, people. The skin is the bitter part of the tomato. If you ever blend tomatoes and centrifuge it and then taste the skin alone, not good.
+
+[40:38] Um I can't find much information on whether freezing or canning offers superior flavor. Some sources suggest canning preserves aroma better. I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't know, but I don't think that's true. Um, but offer little to back that up.
+
+[40:51] Do you have any opinions or research that might help clarify the best course of action? Thanks, Jesse. I don't. But uh the issue with freezing, I'm sure works fine. Um you just gotta make sure that the uh stuff has a uh which 99% of tomatoes do, no matter what the USDA says about they worry that your tomatoes are gonna be overripe or some sort of modern, very low, very uh, you know, low acid tomato, and that it's not gonna have enough acidity to protect yourself against botulism, in which case you need to do pressure canning as opposed to hot water canning, which is what almost everyone does when they're jarring tomato.
+
+[41:27] Uh I doubt that any of I mean you could taste it if it if you if it's a low acid tomato, then freeze it maybe, or pressure can it or add some acid to it. Um, but I don't see why it's already cooked, right? The passata's already cooked, so it's not like cooking it again is gonna hurt the flavor. Uh I would do whatever's easier for you. In general, I think it's easier to store things that don't have to be freezered, because it once you fill your freezer, unless you have an extra freezer just for pasata, which which case fine, freeze it, right?
+
+[42:00] Uh it's kind of a pain in the butt to fill your freezer with something like that. Whereas you have a bunch of shelves, even a closet, you could put the the canned stuff, jarred stuff in, and it'll last forever. The other issue with frozen is you have to thaw it before you use it. And that's a pain in the behind. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:18] So I would say I would say don't freeze it, unless you like freezing it, in which case freeze it. I don't know of an organoleptic reason to do it one way or the other. Uh I wasn't able to find anything. Uh seven minutes. So seven minutes?
+
+[42:33] Yeah. All right. That today is 30. These guys are jerks to me all the time. Just mean.
+
+[42:39] Uh oh, by the way, for those of you interested in non-melting cheeses, I was experimenting with bread cheese. We'll talk about it later, maybe. Uh I guess I will not have time to tell the disgusting story today. Should I talk about tweels? I'll talk about tweels because those are coming up.
+
+[42:52] I'll do I'll do them both real quick and then we'll do classics. Uh Trafton writes in. Um I had a question for the show. Hopefully it's not too late. I got a pastry question for dinner I'm hosting Saturday.
+
+[43:04] Hope I can sneak in for the show. I want to make really thin savory tart shell for another or something closer to a wafer or twel than puff or pate brise. Uh I've been experimenting with leftover sourdough starter. I've tried a few other crepe like recipes with other flowers, but haven't nailed the consistency yet. Do you have any other ideas or approaches I could take?
+
+[43:22] Here's a pick for what I'm shooting for. Sorry, radio listeners, sorry radio listeners. Sorry us, we didn't get the picture. I sent it to you. Oh, I didn't see it.
+
+[43:30] Uh anyway, the issue with tweels and savory tweel doughs is that there's a bunch of different ways this can go. So most like traditional tweels are have a fairly high sugar content. And what the sugar content does is uh it allows you to mold the tweel while it's hot and then it sets up and goes crisp. Oh, yeah. That's not it, but that's that's just like a dehydrated cracker thing.
+
+[43:55] Anyway, it in a non in a non uh sweet environment where you can't add any sugar, most of those, like for instance, even Thomas Keller's like salmon cones have some sugar in them to help with pliability. But often those ones are uh par cooked, right, wrapped, and then desiccated to get crunchy, which is one way you can do it, right? But you're not gonna get that hard crack tweel uh without further desiccation and you know, without the kind of sugar to do it. Another thing people use is um cheese, like frigal like parmesan twels, where those also are like a heat set thing where they're pliable when they're warm and then they set up when they when they get cold. But in the absence of that, uh just go for something that you par bake, form, and then uh and then dehydrate until until it's crunchy.
+
+[44:45] All right? Yes, go. Uh we had a question about pina coladas. Uh okay. Uh hey Dave.
+
+[44:54] Uh I don't know who that wrote this because we don't have the information. Uh longtime listener uh and purchaser of the gadgets and books. Uh I have a perplexing issue with respect to milk clarified pina colada. I'm interested in running at my restaurant. My bar manager and I have product we are happy with, but are interested in adding texture by having a cascade on nitro.
+
+[45:10] Our setup involves a long line run from our walk-in, and after many uh tests, we are stuck. We were able to get the first pull of the product to cascade fairly well, not excellently, but after that, all the subsequent pulls are flat. We have a nitro tap head with the finest pattern of holes I can find. The finest pattern, I think they mean smallest. You know, which finest, fine, like fine, not fine, like the best.
+
+[45:32] Uh, but um, I could find we have the nitro running at between 35 and 40 psi, and I've also added a nitro afterburner set up to the line, which you can look at. Uh okay, I'm wondering if the product we were trying to cascade isn't that receptive to the uh and then uh is the length of run also an issue. Hope you can help. Um, anyway. So the issue here, what we're talking about with nitro is so if you look at a uh there's vast confusion by the way, so I'm just gonna straighten this out between nitrogen N2, not soluble, and nitrous oxide, uh N2O, it is soluble, laughing gas, the stuff they make whipped cream out of.
+
+[46:10] In a nitro product, right, what you're doing is forcing pressurized nitrogen into it, it's not very soluble, and then as soon as it you push it through plates or whatever you're gonna do, uh, or in this afterburner swirling it more so that when it comes out, like that nitrogen instantly pops out of so out of the liquid and forms little micro bubbles that create the kind of cascading effect. Now, this works best, so beer gas is a mixture of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, so that you can have a relatively high pressure without overcarbonating it, and then because the pressure is high, when it releases, it creates a lot of little micro bubbles. Those micro bubbles, which is what the afterburner and the and the holes in the plate are doing, kind of will pop out on you. Now, what I'm guessing is is that you just don't have enough, uh like you just not don't have enough dissolved stuff in your product to get a very fine kind of big cascade or head on it when it's coming out. Now, for those of you that know or think about it, if you've ever done carbonation in a bottle, you'll notice that the very first time you open it, you get a massive amount of foam.
+
+[47:13] The very first time you carbonate something, you get a massive amount of foam. And that's because of the trapped gases and air, like nitrogen, basically, that's in your product from the get-go. The more you do it, the less of that you're gonna get, right? The longer it sits, the lesser you're gonna have that kind of entrained stuff in it. So I think what you may I don't know whether you can do this, but if you could mix a little of a small amount of soluble gas in.
+
+[47:39] So nitrous oxide, CO2, although CO2 is gonna change the taste, a small amount of nitrous won't change the taste. But if you put a small amount of soluble gas in and then force it through, the nitrogen under the higher pressure will pop that soluble stuff, make those little nucleation sites coming through the thing under the high pressure, and you should be able to get a good result. But that's that's my guess of how to do it. Now, uh so we're not gonna do the the disgusting story. Maybe next time.
+
+[48:08] Ask if you're interested, ask for me to talk about bread cheese and then filthy disgusting stories. Oh my god, it's so nasty. I won't tell Nastasi at lunch in case so that she can hear it for the first time on the air. All right. Or we can do the disgusting story and skip classics in the field.
+
+[48:23] But I brought the broadcast. I don't care. Can always leave the book here. Not leaving my books here. What do you want, Matt?
+
+[48:33] Be the tie picker. I kind of do the do the classic. Do the classic. We'll do the disgusting story next week. I'm not gonna forget about the disgusting story.
+
+[48:40] Come on. All right. It involves it involves my robotic vacuum cleaner, my dog, my son, and my work. This feels good. I want that one.
+
+[48:54] Classics is in the field! Yeah. Damn it. All right. So, uh I'm kind of cheating today because it's like it's like one of the it's not one classic, it's 27 classics.
+
+[49:07] Uh, and I've talked about it on air, but not since we've been doing uh the Classics in the Field series. And what I love about this series is that it's completely changed my life. It's even forced Nastasia to do some things. Um, what about Steve Hubacek? Yeah, oh yeah.
+
+[49:26] She's like, nah-uh. I'm like, yeah. She's like, you're right. So the Time Life Foods of the World is a series of books started uh Time Life, and you would subscribe to it and they would send it to you, you know, I don't know whether it was every month or whatever. Uh, and it started in the in the late 60s and went up into the 70s.
+
+[49:45] There were 27 books in all. And the person who started it was um Michael Field, he died before the um before the series was completed, but they finished it. But what's amazing about it is that is the photographs and the fact that even though it was shot in the 60s and the 70s, um, instead of being a normal cookbook, it's more about a slice of life about the way people live in the regions of the US where they are, and also in the different countries uh of the world where the where the books are are you know about. And the photographs are amazing. There is not one of these 27 books that isn't just amazing, amazing, amazing to look at.
+
+[50:29] And they also have recipes in them. The the actual recipes are in a whole separate section, but a whole separate series of spiral-bound books. But the the food that they describe isn't the necessarily the food that you would get even in a modern cookbook about those cultures. So it's a it's a slice of life from the late 60s and early 70s in a bunch of other countries or even in our own country, because four or five of them have to do it with the US. And even those sometimes are about what were bygone eras in those countries, but not from the perspective of a cookbook writer, usually from the perspective of a war correspondent who happened to know something about that country, or a travel writer, and the photographers they got included, like the original sports illustrated photographers.
+
+[51:12] So it's just intensely awesome. So uh so some of them are they have like African cooking, they have straight up American cooking. Um in the American Cooking Northwest, uh, on page, which was also which was well, okay. So the Scandinavian one, it was shot by a guy named Richard Meek, who was one of the very first sports illustrated photographers, and in that book is the is the three is the triptych of Max von Seido or Sido, the Swedish, by the way, who I've renounced. I loved him because his picture of this young, super sexy Max von Sidau showing how to skull properly really changed like the course of my life at the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[51:50] So, you know, the like all of us, like Nils, Nastasi, and myself had this project where we would just take pictures of people doing that skull because it was all about the this ritual of doing this toast with Akavit and then like the look afterwards. And Max Von Sido has this amazing look. Now he's renounced his Swedish and Swedish citizenship. Uh, we tried to get in touch with him years ago to see whether he would do another copy of that skull picture because Nastasi and I bought the rights for that picture from the widow of the widow of Richard Meek to use in our skull project at the time. And we Nastasia somehow found Max Van Sido's agent and was like, Will you redo this?
+
+[52:30] He's like, I no longer do Swedish things, I've renounced my Swedish citizenship. I am now a French person. And we were like, weak. And that's the last time I've been like, yeah, Max Von Cito, yeah. Even though, come on, he was Ming the Merciless, he was death.
+
+[52:44] You know what I mean? But weak. Anyway, but the skull picture totally changed my life. Uh Richard Meek also shot the Northwest American one, in which case, where on page 41, he uh they're talking about the uh Mattaneuska Valley, and there's a picture of a one, Mrs. John Birch, because it's a 70s, and so they instead of giving her her own name, she's Mrs.
+
+[53:05] John Birch. Gotta hate that. Don't you hate that? Yeah. So weak.
+
+[53:08] Mrs. John Birch. Come on, she's a person. Anyway, uh no, she's an accessory to the husband, but she's also a giant cabbage grower. And this picture is where I learned about giant Alaska cabbages, right?
+
+[53:21] Where we then found who grows the current giant cabbage, Steve Hubichek, at least he did like eight years ago when Nastas and I looked this up. And we were this close, this close to getting a giant cabbage phoned in from Alaska. And for some reason, I think Steve thought we were trying to like, I don't know, or something. And then like he did the line went dead. Yeah.
+
+[53:41] He's a dentist in Alaska. Anyone here who's in Alaska who knows Steve Hubacek, we're still open to buying one of your giant cabbages, Steve. We really want one of your giant cabbages. We're gonna make it into coleslaw. We can have a big party at my house.
+
+[53:54] We're gonna have a giant party at Nastasia's house in Stanford. I'm gonna get a new chainsaw. I'm not gonna use my old huskvarna. I'm gonna get a new electric chainsaw. I'm gonna fill it.
+
+[54:04] We're only gonna use it once. So I'm gonna, instead of using regular bar oil, I'm gonna use salad oil, right? Yeah. Brand new chain, people, salad oil in the in the in the bar oil thing, and we're gonna do we're gonna do a chainsaw. First of all, we're gonna take my regular husky and we're gonna hollow out a stump to make a bowl, and then we're gonna take, you know, the new chainsaw.
+
+[54:25] Husk husky's a huskwana. Anyway, and we're gonna take a new one. Sorry, I'm a huskmark and I stuff. I have some still stuff. Anyway, whatever.
+
+[54:31] And then we're gonna we're gonna chainsaw Coleslaw, but only is Steve Hubacek will sell us one of his giant cabbages. So there's that. There is in the Quintet of Cuisines, which I brought here, there's uh one of the best pictures of all time, is uh uh food pictures of all time. In in in uh Brussels, in um they have a uh what's his name? Broigl.
+
+[54:54] They have a festival for Bruegel in in Belgium every year. And so there's a picture of a guy wearing this, like, you know, old like peasant hat, like conical fell fur felt fur, fur-felt peasant hat with sausages around his neck. Remember that picture? And the guy's got an unbelievable look on his face. The pictures alone are worth are worth any.
+
+[55:13] There's a picture in the Japan book of a guy feeding beer to his cow, right? Amazing. That one was written by a Korean war correspondent. I forget who the photographer of that was. In the uh Latin American book, there's a picture of a um, there's a picture of someone doing the uh pina harvesting for agave, well before anyone.
+
+[55:35] This is in like 1970, well before anyone in the US knew what the hell that was. So they were always just about capturing a like a relatively authentic moment in time and and and doing it in a way that is interesting even to our modern kind of uh more jaded but also more open eyes. The other great thing about them is these books are still cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. Even if you buy the whole set on eBay, you can get the whole set for like a hundred bucks. You could find them in any thrift store for like two bucks and the each.
+
+[56:07] And the great thing about them is that uh I can't tell, I don't think any one is any more collectible than the other one. Uh so you know, you if you buy a couple now, you can find a couple later. You don't need to worry about getting them all in one set. They're all amazing. Uh, the one that I thought I was gonna be most disappointed with, the one on Africa.
+
+[56:26] Well, turns out I was rereading it on the way over here, and yes, there's a lot of horrible stuff in it. Yes, it was written by uh uh, you know, Whitey McWhitington. Uh, but even that, even that book, even though some of it is hard, hard to some of it hard to read, the attitude of it hard to read. Uh, like I looked at it again, I was like, oh my god, I forgot about that. The eat the Ethiopian stuffed tripe, which looks like an Ethiopian hackass.
+
+[56:48] It isn't really, it's closer to a pudding. But I was like, oh my god, like even today, after all these years, I opened it just to look at it, was like, oh my god, I forgot. That's so amazing. So definitely go the next anytime you're in a bookstore, look for the Time Life uh Food of the World series and pick up any of the copies you can get and eventually collect yourself a whole set cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[57:19] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[57:46] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're exploring food for the eyes. How the art and culinary worlds collide. Incredibly elaborate.
+
+[0:19] It's a feast for the eyes, a banquet dinner with garnished ham, turkey, and an array of accompaniments. We shot uh baguettes with like paint dripping off of them with the blue, white, and red from the French flag. Oh, what did a student tell me? They said the camera eats first. And it's so true.
+
+[0:41] It's so true. Tune in to Meet in Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from almost 12 to about one from the Burda's Pizzeria and Bushwing. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and Matt in the booth.
+
+[1:12] Special guest right now, Rebecca P the Boondogler. Are you gonna sing your own theme song? No. No, you're good. You're not allowed to sing your own theme song.
+
+[1:25] Dagalito! Dave sings all of his own theme songs. Yeah, I do. You're the only one who's allowed to sing your own theme song. Everyone else needs someone else to do it.
+
+[1:33] Oh, by the way, we're gonna have in a minute special guest, Chef Kate Williams from Lady in the House. So I was trying on the way over to somehow do a lady, like Lady is a tramp mashup, but the rhymes are real hard. The best I could come up with was Hey it's California too cold for a blouse. That's why she's the lady of the house. No.
+
+[1:57] No. Yeah, that needs some workshopping. Too cold for a blouse. Well, it's too cold and it's damp. What?
+
+[2:04] Blouse? You can't use the word blouse yet. Say blouse? Nobody wears blouse. I think if she's wearing the blouse, it's better.
+
+[2:11] No, who wears blouses anymore? I don't know. Oh, Nastassi's only she's either jumpers or dresses. The only two full forms of clothing that Nastasia wears are jumpers and dresses. And leggings.
+
+[2:23] And sweatpants. Leggings. Well, do you wear uh sweatpants goes on your bottoms? Under, yeah, with the thermal. Alright, well, you guys come up with better rhymes for that.
+
+[2:34] Okay. But I think that's the song. No blouse. Yeah. Oh, here she is.
+
+[2:42] Welcome, Chef. Take a seat. So uh I'm gonna let Kate get a uh get her seat here and get some earphones on. Are you gonna sing the song for her? No.
+
+[2:52] Why? You said the rhyme was no good. We'll work on it. We'll do it later. We'll do it later.
+
+[2:57] So uh, well, while you're getting settled, first of all, how you doing? Good, how are you? Okay, oh I didn't do sorry, I didn't do my normal pleasantries. Nastasia, anything interesting happened to you last week? Wait for it.
+
+[3:07] Yeah, but nothing. Really? Anything you want to talk about on the air? Nope. No?
+
+[3:13] No. That was that's our normal pleasantry. And then I do the same with Matt. Matt, anything interesting happened? No, I just want to hear from Chef.
+
+[3:21] Uh, all right then. Well, uh, so Nastasi wants me to tell this story, but I think let's talk to Kate for a moment. No, no, no, no, wait. Let's talk to Kate for a minute first. Okay.
+
+[3:29] Kate, how you doing? I'm doing great. How are you too guy? Doing well. So, for those of you that don't know, uh, should I you know do the quick, the the quick?
+
+[3:37] I know we're fellow uh French Culinary Institute people from back in the day. Currently, you're from Detroit and currently, you know, Chef Extraordinaire in Detroit, but you had a long road to get back to Detroit, right? Yeah. You want to do that quick, or you want like me to make up some stuff? Uh I could do it quick.
+
+[3:54] You know, New York, where actually you were my teacher in sous vide cooking, which that's like, you know, when I tell people that in Detroit, I don't know if everyone knows how like geeked out people are in Detroit over David Astasia. Um, so super exciting. We like Detroit. Detroit's awesome. It is.
+
+[4:10] You know, uh, we'll talk about that in a minute, but talk about you for a minute. Yeah, so um, New York, Chicago, Copenhagen, unexpectedly back in uh Detroit, and um thinking, you know, when I left 10 years before that I was never, you know, as a chef, I was like, oh, I don't know if there's a food scene here, and completely fell in love and then decided I wanted a restaurant um or restaurants now. Um yeah, that's about it. Nice. Well, the um also I read that you worked for Wolfgang Puck.
+
+[4:39] In Chicago, yes. What was that? What's he like? Well, uh, he's actually really cool. He's very excited you know, I mean, he is very much what he appears like on TV.
+
+[4:48] He's very excited about the food, right? Like he just can't stop talking about how his three-year-old loves his smoked salmon pizza and stuff like that. So what is he anyway? Is he Alzatian? Is he part of the Alsatian Mafia?
+
+[4:59] What is he? Is he German or Alzheimer's? Austrian, I think. Austrian? Yeah.
+
+[5:02] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not German. Yeah, I believe he's Austrian. Cool. All right.
+
+[5:06] Uh so he was all right to work. I've always wondered, like, he's like one of these enigmatic figures to me that I've never I've never met the guy. Well, also by that time, so I don't even remember what year that was, 20 2008, something like that. There were a few people between us, so it wasn't like a directly report, you know, he's out in LA, whatever. But yeah, he was great.
+
+[5:24] Yeah, cool. So then you go back to uh Detroit, and you were there for a while before you opened Lady of the House, right? A couple of years? Yes, correct. Um so Lady of the House opened in 2017, and I moved back in 2010.
+
+[5:37] Yeah, white. You want to talk about the concept like the lady of the house, like you want to talk. What do you want to talk about? Like we Nastasi and I went there and you had a great kind of charity event. What's the name of that uh charity that you Chef Tell Classic?
+
+[5:49] I think we should do that in New York. Did I mention this? Yeah, I think you should come to New York when you are in New York. By the way, you're here for a beard house event, right? Yeah, tomorrow night.
+
+[5:56] Do you need to push that or do you not need to push that? No, I think it's sold out, right, Bex. Too late, people. Anyway, like uh the beard house is so weird. For those of you that don't know, I don't know, for those of you that like don't come to New York and aren't actually plugged into different chef communities, you know what I mean?
+
+[6:11] Like, but definitely a nationwide chef community is the community that's plugged into this whole kind of beard house. I'm not gonna say cult, because that gives it kind of a bad ring, but they make you pay for all your own ingredients. They used to, I don't know if they still do. They changed that. Oh, really?
+
+[6:25] I looked it back and so I wanted to double check. You're like, is that the case? It used to be, okay. So it seems like it's much different now. It used to be you paid your own way and your own ingredients.
+
+[6:35] They sold tickets because it was a chair, is a charity. Right. And so everyone was always like, Yeah, I'd love to do it. Oh, now I gotta pay for it. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:45] But now it's different, like you're yeah, this stuff's covered. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, exactly. And the cooks get really excited. I mean, so we did one two years ago and um brought some of our team, and we're we have one of them coming back with us, but um, you know, it's exciting like cooking at the beard house for them, you know.
+
+[6:59] Yeah, by the way, you're cooking in his kitchen. Yeah, you're cooking, and his kitchen sucks. If it's tiny. It's definitely tiny. It sucks bad.
+
+[7:09] It's a bad kitchen. First of all, for those of you, I've said this a million times, Jay's beard, uh, I have all of those books, beard on pasta, beard on bread, beard on whatever, beer, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. But it's like, and maybe someday we'll do a James Beard classics in the field someday, but uh, because I guess I have read them all. He had some terrible opinions about things. Yeah.
+
+[7:29] Terrible. Terrible. He liked electric ranges. Oh, that's news to me, actually. Yeah, he wrote, I like electric well, I'm paraphrasing.
+
+[7:40] I like electric ranges. Was that in his kids' book? I'm using my crayon. I'm using my crayon hand when I'm ready. Yeah.
+
+[7:49] Fire hot. Actually, Booker, uh my son Booker, his very first words were hot, because we had all exposed, like hot stuff in the in the loft at the time when he was born when he started kind of crawling and walking around. Very first word, hot. I'm like, damn skippy. Anyway, but you know, I don't because like if your kid shows up, if you're wheeling your kid in a stroller and there's a giant burn mark across their face from where they leaned into a steam pipe, that's on you.
+
+[8:18] Yeah, you're not invited back. Yeah. Wait, now that you're on your family. Oh, I was like, wait, wait. I just have to say this, people.
+
+[8:25] If you are uh a woman, do not make comments to fathers pushing kids in strollers about how they should have shoes on, how they're wet. Like, the dad can handle pushing the kid around in a stroller and the kid's waterproof. Is this in the middle of winter? Well, no, it's just like, I mean, maybe it's different now, but like 18, you know, 18 years ago when I was pushing Booker around in strollers, like, because like I was the guy at home, like Jen was my wife was working, and I was, you know, I had the more flexible job, so I was the guy at home in the crazy loft, trying to stop my kid from getting burnt against hot things. And every single woman on the street thinks that this is the first time you've pushed your kid around the city in a stroller or carried them or fed them, or I'm like, Mike, I appreciate that you're trying to help, but you need to shut up.
+
+[9:29] That sounds really hard for you, Dave. I know he hates me though. I'm saying it's like, you know, whatever. We do. Before we move on, can we just talk about the shower situation at the beard house?
+
+[9:43] I did not use the restroom. I don't use I consider that a public restroom, so I've never used it. But you've never even been inside to look? No. It's incredible.
+
+[9:52] Okay, he also has an outdoor shower. That he has like glass covering that area, and so all of his neighbors would see him showering nude. Bit of a couple all the time. Oh, I thought I I must have ranges. That part's amazing.
+
+[10:08] Also the me entirely mirrored bathroom. Yes, and bedroom. He's a creep. Alright. He also, now, I think we can all agree here.
+
+[10:17] I've said this a million times, but I'll say it one more time in case this is the first time you're tuning in. He only liked canned sardines, did not like fresh sardines. Now I love canned sardines because they taste good. But fresh sardines are one of the best things ever. Delicious.
+
+[10:33] Maybe it's because he couldn't get enough heat on his Ran State Electric stove. I think they swapped out his actual range. Do they have gas on the range now? Yeah, there's gas now. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[10:42] I think it used to be those just He's rolling over in his grave. Yeah. Trying to. He's trying to make it over in his grave, his glass coffin grave. Anyway.
+
+[10:52] Gross story. Alright, so I'm gonna I promise, sorry, Kate. I promised that uh, I promised that I would tell this gross story last week before I knew that you were gonna be on. But before I tell the gross story, I have something else to lead into it. So we're gonna play a little game of, and you can, you know, Rebecca and Kate, you can play Matt.
+
+[11:11] You can play here. It's called He's Wrong, She's Wrong, Both Wrong. No. Alright. All right.
+
+[11:20] Ready? Go on. So this leads into the story. So they just did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:27] So we'll do this without names so that we can't partial. The she may or may not be nostassi. Yes. And the he may or may not be. We'll not let that affect our judgment.
+
+[11:40] May or may not have been this morning. So uh and you know, you what feel free to weigh in, people. So I've been, and this is how it ties in. So I've been working for the last week or so on the design drawings for the Sears All V8, which is the kind of high-powered broiler attachment that we're gonna make that's you know, like gonna be like, you know, it's a hundred thousand BTUs in a space like this big, and it's gonna be on a timer, so it just it comes on when you need it and then clicks off of the timer. So like and you can take it on the go with you so you could have like a deck broiler on the go.
+
+[12:14] Wow. It's gonna be nice. So our direct competitor is something called the Auto While Grill, but so we're gonna have to do some testing. But anyway, we're excited because they're like, oh, it only takes three minutes to heat up. I'm like, three minutes?
+
+[12:23] Who's got three minutes? 15 seconds! Hot! Yeah. Hot now!
+
+[12:28] It's like, remember like uh crispy cream, hot now! Anyway, um, so I'm working on it, I've been working on it. I get, I finally, you know, I do CAD, which is the 3D drawings, and so I have every single part of this. And by the way, if any of you ever need to make something like a physical object and you're gonna get it manufactured, um, it it it takes a and it's taken us years to figure it out like how much work you need to do before you approach someone to do it, because if you don't, if you do too much work, they're like, I'm I can't do that, and you've wasted all that work. But if you don't do enough work, they provide you with an initial design idea, and once you have been provided with an initial design idea, it never changes.
+
+[13:08] And this is goes, this also goes with you know, uh design and architecture, exhibition design, restaurant design, menu design. Anytime you have multiple people involved, here's when you're in a meeting, I just highly recommend, and everyone hates me for this in meetings, but this is this is the God's truth. People are like, but it's it's just a dummy, it's just there. You don't need to worry, we can change it later. It will never change later, people.
+
+[13:33] Like if someone says, don't worry, it's just there to kind of show you what it could be, but it could change later, it will never change. So whether it's the shape of the pass, whether it's the structure of the menu, whether it's whatever it is, once it's just been dummied in, it's there for good. So fight early. You know what I'm saying? I mean, how many times do you deal with that with uh with like you know, your kitchen consultants, your your architects?
+
+[14:01] I mean. Oh, all the time. Just like, oh, don't worry. Like, we'll, you know, the water's gonna get to this temperature. Just don't worry, we'll take care of it later.
+
+[14:07] It's like, you know. Yeah, yeah. And because people, people like are like, don't get bogged down in the minutiae, Dave. I'm like, okay, I won't, then don't put the dummy in. Don't dummy it at all.
+
+[14:14] Just take it out of this discussion so we're not even discussing it. And I'll happily deal with this minutia later, but I will not allow that to remain in as a dummy and it becomes a hard fact in my life later because this is not something that's happened to me eight or twelve times. This has happened to me like dozens and dozens of times. Every time. Yeah.
+
+[14:37] In every aspect in every field of my life. But uh, so anyway, so I'm designing away. And so this morning I finish a set of drawings 36 inch by 24 inch, like A1, full blueprints, completely like with cutaway views, with like, you know, all of the dimensions on it, an entire build of material down to the number of set screws and their size and the materials they're made out of, like an entire thing. PDF. Nastasia this morning sends me.
+
+[15:10] You mean she. She, she sends me a uh forward forwards me a message from a listener about yeast, which maybe we'll get to later. About pitching yeast. You like pitching, you you uh do you do a lot of uh yeast, yeast and sourdough baking? We do, yeah.
+
+[15:28] So then I'll let you answer it then. I I have my idea and then we'll see. We'll we'll talk about it. Uh so she sends me this, forwards me this message. Because usually I send him the questions beforehand.
+
+[15:39] This is true on a word document. Usually 10 p.m. the night before, roughly. Between 10 and 12, night before. Yeah.
+
+[15:45] And then it and by the way, for those of you that don't want actually want to know the nuts and bolts, here's how it works. She sends something that says radio subject, no, r subject radio, text, yo. Attachment. For like eight years. Radio, yo.
+
+[15:58] So it's like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway, it's on a word document. So anything that comes in after midnight or one or whenever whenever I send it, I'll just forward the question directly so that he knows to add it on to the thing. And she says like forward radio or something like that on the forward.
+
+[16:12] Yeah. Okay. So she does that. About this yeast question. About this yeast question.
+
+[16:17] And then I'm like, I'm like trying because I want to get here roughly on time. So I'm also getting ready and typing, typing, typing. I finally, like, you know, I get the last dimensions in, like, the program I'm using is being a real P It P you know pain in the behind on like doing this specific cutaway exactly the way I want. I finally get it. I go save as PDF.
+
+[16:38] Nastasia's forward is there, so I just hit reply to Nastasia, write on it. I can supply the full CAD files if necessary. You said here's what I've been working on. Oh, get it. Get it up.
+
+[16:48] Here's what I've been working on. Yeah. He said this guy, this guy said, here's what I've been working on. I can supply full CADs if necessary. I still need to dimension out the I I can still dimension out for them the gas orifice and the nozzles, etc.
+
+[17:05] etc. Yeah. Attach this PDF, which is the complete I can show you guys the. Just says, here's PDF I've been working on. I can send them the actual cat as well as do a more detailed drawing of the nozzles aerodate gas orifice.
+
+[17:18] So I read, here's a PDF I've been working on in relation to the yeast guy, right? Because it's an direct answer to this yeast question. And I'm like, why can't Dave just copy the yeast guy instead of writing it to me? And so she forwards the guy. So I'm like, I'm trying to get out the door, and I forward the email to the yeast guy.
+
+[17:40] Dave calls me, he's like, I saw you, I'm you missed your call or whatever. Did you see what I was working on? And I was like, yeah, I forwarded the effing guy. What do you yeah? I'm like, what?
+
+[17:51] So she forwarded the entire, she forwarded the entire design schematic of the entire unit. Which came look at the level of detail we're talking here. I mean. I mean, forwards it. So then we start yelling at each other.
+
+[18:11] She's like, who just forwards? On an email that's unrelated. No, who responds to an email. To an email. But also something totally different.
+
+[18:19] There was something in my head that was like patent worthy. Yeah. There was something in my head that went like CAD drawings for yeast making. Like, that's weird. Why would I was like, it's all nerdy, okay.
+
+[18:29] So she starts yelling at me. She's like, who does? She's like, who does that? I'm like, yeah, who does that? Who doesn't read what they're doing?
+
+[18:37] And then we both just start screaming the F word. Just long F word. I think that the listeners can really know what we're talking about. You should send me the PDF and I'll post it as the episode. Yeah, they both.
+
+[18:53] Yeah, yeah. That would be smart. That's the good call, Matt. So anyway, so that's a game of he's wrong. She's wrong?
+
+[19:02] Both wrong. Both. Both wrong. Definitely the mutual, the mutual F-word was the right call there. Yeah, but at that point, so for those of you that don't know, we're not monsters.
+
+[19:15] At that point, we were just Fing our lives, not each other. We weren't screaming that. Yeah, it wasn't F you, it was more like we're both screaming F May. So is there like a hit out on that? No, actually and he was like deleted, deleted, deleted, and I was like, okay.
+
+[19:33] He's like for the highest bidder. Now, not only does he know about this, but you've now told all the listeners. But all they need to do can now understand that this is out there in the world. Well, no, as long as he deleted it, it's it's fine. Well.
+
+[19:47] Okay, let me just point out here that this is like the perfect example of things that happen all the time with both of you. Like pick up the pieces reply to a random email putting really important documents attached to it, and then you are annoyed that it came through and you instinctually forward it along without even reading what's attached. Right. Well, I mean, I'm gonna file that particular thing under, like we both know each other. Like, why haven't we learned who we are yet?
+
+[20:23] Exactly, exactly. That's really your point. It's like, you know, if this is the first time Nastasia had dealt with me, or the first time I dealt with her, I'd be like, you know what? Like, we'll give her a pass, or anybody. I love it so much.
+
+[20:43] All right, so now that's the that's what I was working on. So as I said before, uh like I have some certain issues, many. One of those issues is is that once I go into a project, and I'm sure you're probably like this too, Kate, like when you're in something, you're in it. Like time can spool away. Like, I don't, I don't pay attention to like, have I eaten breakfast?
+
+[21:06] Have I eaten lunch? Is the is the building on fire? I'm just like on what I'm on. I'm doing what I'm doing. You're really into it.
+
+[21:14] Yeah, so Rebecca is quoting a confessions. Okay. I won't tell you what her reference is then. Ask our lawyer. He'll that was another classic.
+
+[21:28] That is not safe for family show. I can just I'll say it quickly. I accidentally forwarded a naked photo of Dave on a horse to our patent list. It was not a naked picture of me on a horse. Yes, it is, Dave.
+
+[21:41] It is not me. It's you, Nick. It is my head on some model's body. And can I have that one for the show? And I will also say no genital.
+
+[21:53] No Franks and Beans. No Franks and Beans. Not even but. Although the whole point was that there was none, but yes. This is not appropriate for this show.
+
+[22:03] And neither was it appropriate to send to our patent lawyer. And that's today, people, that Nastasia learned how to manipulate group texts. It's still an issue, but it's better. Okay, okay. So anyway, so I get deep into it.
+
+[22:17] So you know what I was into because I just told you I was doing the Sears all V8. Alright. And which by the way looks kind of like a V8 engine, right? It's got that kind of overhead, overhead cam action. Do you have any schematics for that?
+
+[22:30] Uh okay, so also my kids were home from school, and so I was like, you know, you're gonna walk the dogs, right? Because that's the deal. If they're home from school, they don't have school, they walk the dogs. Otherwise, in the morning I walk to dogs. Okay.
+
+[22:43] So I go to Dax and I say, Dax, walk the dogs. Right. This is before I go into the K-hole. I like walk the dogs. Then I go back to the computer and I start like doing my my computing stuff.
+
+[22:59] And that was I I told him at like 8 30 in the morning. So then all of a sudden, around 11, I hear a noise. And it kind of, because I was at kind of a natural break, I hear a noise, which I normally wouldn't hear. And it's my robotic vacuum. I have a robotic vacuum that goes around the house and robotically vacuums everything up.
+
+[23:18] Its name is Xiaomi. Okay? Uh that's the name of the company. Anyway, so it's a you know, it's a decent robotic vacuum. And I hear it, and I'm like, oh, did they walk the dogs?
+
+[23:32] So I go over to Dax, who's still, you know, murdering people on his Xbox, which is, you know, what as he does, and I'm like, walk the dogs, like that. And so he like, he's like, ugh, fine, fine, goes and walks the dogs. He takes the dogs out, and I'm just sitting down to go back into another deep hole of of work, right? And you know, me, I'm hearing me, which is the robotic vacuum, and I'm like, what's that smell? Oh!
+
+[24:02] Ow! Oh my god! And so I run over and the robotic vacuum, noonie noonie noonie noonie no, had robotically vacuumed into the kid's bathroom where now one of my dogs is big. That dog can hold stuff forever. One of my dogs is only 20 pounds, and so it can't hold it from 7 p.m.
+
+[24:22] the night before until like 11 15 in the morning the next day. And Watson, the small one. So once Watson goes into the bathroom and he's like, I can't hold it anymore, boss, and he pees, he's like, might as well poop. Right? So he's like, peas and poofs, thankfully on the tile of the bathroom, right?
+
+[24:40] Oh no. I'm like, but Xiaomi doesn't know from pee and poop. So Xiaomi runs over with the brushes, inhales the pee in the poop, and then ejects pee and poop fumes out of its filter and instantly fills the house with dog poop smell. Like hot too, right? Hot hot sprayed dog pee and poop smell.
+
+[25:10] And then I was just like, so I just hit stop, shut the door and walked away. For like, it took me a good oh, oh, it would you too. It would take me a good, it took me a good five minutes to be like. So then Dax comes home and I'm like, guess what? So then I'm like, you're doing the initial clean.
+
+[25:43] So like I flipped Xiaomi completely disassembled. We start scrubbing it, sterilizing it, like boiling it, like all the things that we need to do, like trying to get this electronic battery-powered, poop infiltrated monstrosity back into like, you know, vacuuming shape again. And then Dax, it turns out, he has all these toilet, all these paper tiles that he's using to clean, right? But he can't find a trash bag because we don't he can't find a trash bag. So I'm like, I see him throw one in the toilet.
+
+[26:14] I'm like, don't throw that in the toilet, you're gonna clog the toilet. He's like, oops. And then I look at the toilet, and the toilet is full of paper towels. So then I had another half hour of plunging the toilet to try to get the god dang paper towels down the vet. Oh my god.
+
+[26:38] I mean, yes, having a robotic vacuum and two dogs in New York, first world problems, but unpleasant. Unpleasant nonetheless. Did you get an eye infection from like the humes of poop that were all around? I didn't, although uh I want you guys all to know that when you smell poop, it is actual poop molecules that are hitting your nose. Ugh.
+
+[26:57] Just as you know. And your eyes. I always wanted to make a little t-shirt for houseflies that say, the last place I landed was poop. Is it same with the fart? What?
+
+[27:10] Is it the same? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not that it's not, it's not the bacteria aren't hitting you, it's the volatile molecule. I mean, like, maybe it is. I mean, I don't know how diaphinous your your garments are.
+
+[27:23] This feels like a great place to go to break. I thought you wanted to do the classics in the field before break. After break. All right, here we go. We'll be right back with Kate Williams cooking issues.
+
+[27:38] This episode is brought to you by Fair Kitchens. The food service industry faces a challenge. More people are eating out, yet restaurants are losing talent. Why is this? Research by Fair Kitchens reveals a serious well-being issue within professional kitchens.
+
+[27:56] 74% of chefs are sleep deprived to the point of exhaustion. 63% of chefs feel depressed, and more than half feel pushed to the breaking point. This can't be ignored. Fair Kitchens is a movement based on the belief that a positive kitchen culture makes for a healthier business. By taking the pledge to be a fair kitchen, they'll provide you with free information, tools, and resources to help you take action towards making your restaurant more stable, productive, and happy, which positively affects the guest experience.
+
+[28:30] It's time to act now. Learn about the Fair Kitchens code and join the movement at Fairkitchens.com. Are we back? Oh sorry, that was Yeah, yes. And we are back.
+
+[28:42] So I have been told by Matt, uh, in no uncertain terms that the new structure of the show is we will actually go to break. That will happen. And then when we come back, it's time for Classic Seat in the Feed. And so that's what we're gonna do. And uh what year were you at SCI?
+
+[29:00] Uh 2006. 2006. And you see, you like uh when did you when did you start cooking in life? Like I mean, like like when did you become more serious about cooking? Were you always serious about cooking?
+
+[29:12] No, I took a cooking class in high school and then just never stopped. That's like not a romantic story, but I just I you know I was bit by the bug and then um just kept cooking. Yeah. So 15 and professionally 18. Oh nice.
+
+[29:26] Alright, so I mean I I'm trying to get a handle for like when like you know, uh people became uh aware of certain things, but you know, when I was a kid, I used to break into my mom's cook not breaking, but like go take all my mom's cookbooks, read them, and like, you know, cook by myself because I was home alone a lot. Sure. I mean, and so I would, you know, not in the Macaulay Calkin sense, but you know, home alone a lot. And so that's when I really started kind of to cooking things that I probably shouldn't have been cooking on my own. But then, and in college, I would, I like would buy like I would buy portable ovens and baked bread in my dorm room.
+
+[30:02] Uh yeah, I'm a weird dude. Anyways, but like after I graduated college is when I got kind of seriously bitten by the bug of serious home cooking. You know what I mean? Which is by the way, by the way, different from restaurant cooking. Let's just, everyone needs to be clear on this.
+
+[30:16] You could you could be a fantastic chef and do almost no home cooking ever, not even like home cooking. Uh not eating it, but doing it. You know what I mean? And likewise, you can be one of the you know great home cooks and be a garbage chef. You have garb, you agree with this?
+
+[30:35] Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the great disservices that's been done to us as a food culture, us as a country in our food culture is this kind of destruction of cook as being something that is honorable. Everyone wants to be chef at home. I'm like, no, you don't. You know what I mean?
+
+[30:55] Like, no, no, no, you know you don't. You know what I mean? Like, no, no one at home actually actually likes to cook that way. You know what I mean? Right.
+
+[31:02] Yeah, you know, you know, like all of like the pre-steps you have to do, like all the way. So like, let me tell you something, people. Let's say, let me give you a word of advice. If you're at home and a professional chef comes over to dinner, right? Like a line cook, whatever.
+
+[31:20] They come over to dinner, right? Especially a line cook. And you're trying to make something, and they say, if you're lucky, they won't ask for help because what's gonna happen is they're gonna ask for help, and you're gonna say, yeah, cut some onions. And so what they will do is take your entire bag of onions and cut them instantly into a thing. You're like, I only needed one onion.
+
+[31:44] Because that's not the way that cooks think. You know what I mean? They're like, I'm gonna take this thing that you have handed me and break the whole thing down, because it's a different mentality. You know what I mean? Uh anyway, and so and they're like, don't worry, you'll use it, you'll use it in the next dish you cook in like 10 minutes when we fire the oh, you're not firing anything else tonight?
+
+[32:01] Oh. So it's like a different, different mindset. But uh just firing. Like you don't use that at home. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:09] Yeah, if you haven't fired it yet at home, you're toast. You know what I mean? And this, by the way, is why I think like low-temp work, like sous- vide work is good in um in a home, because even if you're doing relatively simple things, it's very simple things. It's really hard to get a dinner to come together at once, especially if you wanna do stuff that doesn't sit around a long time. It's like if you're smart, which I never am, you cook something that can sit around all day without going bad.
+
+[32:34] Lasagna. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, lasagna, eggplant park, great, you know what I mean? You know, finish it at noon, it's still great at eight. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:42] It's like, who cares? No, it's always gotta be the steak. Or something that but for stuff like that, that's why sous vide is such a lifesaver because it allows you to get all the components of your crap together and then just bang, fire that stuff at the end and put it out. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. So I became uh very interested in home cooking right after college.
+
+[33:01] I graduated college in 93, and in 93, there was an internet-ish, but it didn't have pictures on it. So, like if you wanted to get a picture on the internet in the 90s in the early, early, early, early 90s, you joined what's called a use group, and then you had like a uh a buy, it's called a binary file, and that binary file was almost like a Word document, and then you loaded that into another program that would then convert that back into a picture. So you're like, oh, they posted a picture, so wait. Because you lost your connection, and then you get it, and then like, and you're like, oh, that's not the picture I want. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[33:44] Yeah. Who picked up my phone? Yeah. Anyway, so that's the way the internet used to work. So there was no internet, there was no YouTube, there was almost there's nothing like that.
+
+[33:53] The cookbooks that were available at the time were very good, but they didn't actually, even the ones done by professional cooks, didn't give you kind of cool tricks and tips that a professional might know for home, and they weren't they didn't they didn't really have fill this niche. Outcomes in 1993, Cook's Illustrated magazine. Cooks Illustrated, I was I got the full charter year, 1993, which was the first year. So Chris Kimball uh founded uh Cooks Illustrated, he founded Cooks Magazine, which folded in I guess the late late 80s, it sold that to Conde Nast. When they folded, he somehow acquired the rights to use the word cooks again, founded Cooks Illustrated.
+
+[34:31] Now Cooks Illustrated, the interesting thing about it, it many interesting things about it, but it came out every two months. It was in black and white, so it wasn't, you know, of the kind of you know, bone bone app or gourmet variety of kind of glossy mag. Uh it did not have any advertisements in it, and still doesn't, I guess. No advertisements. And it had these things in it that I had never seen in a magazine before.
+
+[34:57] Uh, and it had a very kind of unique um attitude. So it had, I mean, the first one's a lie, it had notes from readers. There's no readers because the sucker hadn't started yet. Everyone always got a lie a little bit, you know what I mean? But it had this section on quick tips that was kind of like the YouTube of its day.
+
+[35:12] It like showed you how to do it. Oh, I'm very familiar. Yeah, I yeah, I I had the subscription for years. Yeah, and so you can go and and they really started, and we talked about uh the man who had everything before, but they really started the whole idea of I'm gonna take a recipe and run it down into the ground and test it 18 different ways and tell you how things work. They hired a lot of professionals to do things that they were very good at.
+
+[35:40] So there's an extremely young Bobby Flay in here. Uh, there's a bunch of kind of well-known, well-known people, and some of the recipes are still the recipes I use to this day. Their muffin recipe from 1993. I see who wrote it because I don't I don't remember, but I'll I'll give her a shout out. Um but that's when I learned because like back in the day, when you bought a muff, you know how when you buy a muffin, you know how when you make a muffin at home, it's a sad little affair.
+
+[36:04] And then when you buy a professional one, it it's blasted over its its cap and has that giant cap that everyone is the best part of every muffin. Well, I didn't learn how to do that until I read uh well, that's that's a different one. I didn't learn how to do that until I read, oh, it's the same person. Marcy Goldman, wherever you are, you're a freaking genius. I don't know you, but I've been making your muffins and your one dough mini cookies, sugar cookie recipe from the 1993 Cooks Illustrated for decades now.
+
+[36:32] And you, you, Marcy, are a genius. So she's the one who's like, you're not making your dough thick enough, your bad are thick enough, you're not putting it enough of it into the cup, let it flow over. I don't know how she talks, no matter like, you know, let it, and then I also, by the way, I don't know if you know this people, I'm an extreme cheater. I'm an extreme cheater. So Chicago Metallic, you know, Chicago Metallic?
+
+[36:55] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The baking pan people, Chicago Metallic. They make a muffin pan. I was all I've been blessed for many, many, many, many years of always having full full sheet tray ovens at home.
+
+[36:59] Yeah. You know, since ever since 90, since 1997, I've had full sheet trays, right? At home. So and for those of you that bake in an oven that doesn't have a full sheet tray, jerks! You know what I mean?
+
+[37:24] Okay, back me up on this. Full sheet tray is like a game change. Oh, absolutely. I can't. I'm trying to think of how have I not made that decision in my personal life.
+
+[37:32] Just because you have you had at work. If you need it, you'll be like, yo, I need to do something. Prep some stuff out for me, and they'll do it. The other thing I've told many people is that you know what's a luxury at home. It's nice, hard to keep clean, but nice, is um is uh a speed rack for sheet trays in your house so that you can just rack all the stuff up and everything.
+
+[37:50] Yeah. So Christmas cookie time, I'm the I'm the Christmas cookie. People are like, how do you make so many Christmas cookies? I got a freaking full sheet tray oven. Yeah, full sheet and a speed rack.
+
+[38:02] Boom, boom, boom, boom. Anyway, uh, where was I going with this? So Chicago Metallic makes a muffin pan that has an indent the size of the muffin cap, so it doesn't, you don't have to worry about being good at the batter. It can't spread past the muffin cap. Whoa.
+
+[38:19] Right? Yeah. Right? I I'm torn though, how I feel about it. It's cheating.
+
+[38:27] But why not cheat? Do you know how many awesome muffins I cranked out of that pan? I don't know where it is today. I think it got lost in one of my moves. But oh my god, that pan, so many blueberry muffins.
+
+[38:38] All thanks to Marcy Goldman. Here's another tip that Marcy Golden gave me in in the in the year of our Lord 1993 that I use to this day. Now, listen, I know all of you were like, you should keep around some cake flour, some white swan or lily, whatever it is, cake flour, because it's bleach and it's different. Listen, if you don't want to have multiple flowers and you keep AP in your house on the regular, like I do, and like most people do, most people also have cornstarch in their house. Or if you don't, why don't you have a box of cornstarch in your house?
+
+[39:08] If you need something tender, like a cookie, just sub in 15, about 10 to 15% cornstarch for your AP flour, and all of a sudden you've knocked the gluten down and tenderized uh tenderized your product. I use this sometimes in pancakes, I use it in crepes, I use it in cookies, all because of Cooks Illustrated 1993 and Marcy Goldman. For the good news for you people is that the first at least I think 10 years of Cooks Illustrated were bound at the end of the year, they did a bound volume of the whole year, and you can buy it complete with index. So this week's classics in the field is Cooks Illustrated 1993, charter year bound volume. And I know some of it's outdated because a lot of their stuff was we're only gonna test things that we can get in the Boston Metro area.
+
+[39:55] They didn't ever test anything that was hyper expensive or unavailable, so it doesn't fit into today's. I'm gonna go on the internet and get the nichest niche McNeish thing that I can find. You know what I mean? It wasn't about that. And it wasn't about going through Herculean effort, so it's like not my style now.
+
+[40:11] Crazy efforts to get marginal improvement. As for those of you that know, Nastasi and I are maximum effort, marginal improvement. Like that's our goal. Compare it to aviation. Oh, yeah, we're the trailing edge technology.
+
+[40:24] Like we make that plane a little bit better, but if it falls off, you're gonna land. You know what I mean? Uh you know what I mean? That little blessing, that little wingtip that saves like one gallon per trip, that's us. Uh but and uh you know who uh got their uh their writing start at Cooks Illustrated?
+
+[40:41] Kenji Lopez Al. Really? Yeah. So the mistakes that Cooks Illustrated made were they use the word best a lot when they shouldn't, right? They should just say, here's the path we chose, look at our path.
+
+[40:51] It's more of a DAO thing. You know what I mean? Look at look at the way of learning how to make something better. Look at the way of getting better. Instead of saying that there is a goal you have achieved, because we all know there's no goal.
+
+[41:01] You've you've achieved nothing. There's still work to do. You know what I mean? So uh, like that's a mistake. I think um, you know, some of the anyway, but we're not talking about their mistakes.
+
+[41:11] Go look at the classics, go do it, go do it. Uh Dave, did you realize so Marcy Goldman has a website called betterbaking.com. I did not know that. It was uh established in 1997, so definitely same issues you had with the internet. Yeah, being being boingy boingy.
+
+[41:27] Um and apparently they're she has a muffin recipe on here called Lawsuit Muffins. Ooh. Um they help you win a lawsuit. Apparently, they inspired a lawsuit. Oh, but I feel like you might need to reach out to Marcy and see how much.
+
+[41:42] Are they her buttermilk? Are they her buttermilk ones? Um I don't believe Oh, yeah, they are. If you need to make a muffin recipe, I mean, I don't know her current one, but the one that she used to use. This is the other thing.
+
+[41:57] Cooks Illustrated, once they've been around like 20, 25 years, they're like, oh, they'll there's perfect biscuit from 1993. Then they do biscuits again in like in like 2005, and they're calling it like the perfect business. Which one's perfect, people? That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean?
+
+[42:11] Can't be perfect twice. Jerks! Anyway, but uh great stuff, great stuff. Uh all right, now. Uh wait, we're gonna talk about Detroit more?
+
+[42:21] How about Detroit? When Nastasia and I went to Detroit. Tell her about how you almost got taken out by chicken. What? No.
+
+[42:29] Why? Okay. Oh. No. Why?
+
+[42:34] You don't have to. Because then I have to send it. You don't have to say the name? No. Talk about that later at lunchtime.
+
+[42:40] I'll talk about that later at lunchtime. But uh those of you that do you remember that? I mean, those of you that of course she remembers that. Uh anyway, so like I was kind of surprised at the how cool the food scene was really in Detroit when I went. That was a year ago now.
+
+[42:55] Mm-hmm. It was June. Yeah. Yeah. And um, like one thing that I they I still don't quite understand is like how all like how there's such a level of like fit and finish in a lot of the places there.
+
+[43:11] They're like, how is this all getting paid for? Is it really just that much cheaper to make something nice in Detroit than it is to make something nice in New York? Because I just don't understand the economics of it. You know what I mean? Because everything was so nice.
+
+[43:24] Like that, like the perfume bar, that perfume bar was just so physically nice. Physically nice. Yeah. Well, the rents are cheaper, obviously. So that's so you have more money to spend on other stuff?
+
+[43:35] Yeah, I mean, cost of living in general is lower there than definitely New York. So yeah. Yeah. Oh, and we didn't get to talk about uh the structure of uh Lady of the House. So wait, what are the other restaurants now?
+
+[43:47] How many do you have now? So two restaurants, Lady of the House St. Carl's, which just opened in August. So you guys weren't even here for that. Oh, yeah, but you were opening it.
+
+[43:54] That's the one that opened at the top of that hotel. Yep, it's on the second floor of the siren. And that one's more of a that's more of like a what was it, diner inspiration? Yeah, so um my great-great-grandfather had a bakery called that's my mom my grandma's maiden name Carl, uh called Carl's Kirchoville Home Bakery, it was called, uh, on the east side of Detroit, like pre-depression era. And so this is sort of like if that had never closed, right?
+
+[44:21] So touched by every generation since it's breakfast, lunch, dinner, um, bakery, but also um like sort of classic diner. Do you have any access to the old recipes? No, it's so funny actually that the family sort of the Carl family kind of dispersed a lot of places. So I've been getting letters from um, you know, women in Florida, like, oh, I have recipes and dishes from the original, but still haven't gotten them. So that'd be amazing.
+
+[44:45] If you're listening, yeah. That'd be amazing. If they're listening to cooking issues, yeah, odds, odds minimal. Uh but the uh oh yeah, that's cool. So it's that open in August, it's going well.
+
+[44:55] Yeah. Do you have a Coney on the menu there or no? No, we don't. Maybe we'll do one. I don't know.
+
+[45:01] I mean, I like to leave that to like the expertise. Yeah. I don't think when we where did we go? What was the place we went, Nastasia? I forget the name of it.
+
+[45:09] I don't think that those people in their white t-shirts had left that hot dog line in 50 years. You were at Lafayette, I think. I don't know. I was like, it was like white t-shirt. Yeah, a kind of a sour but nice look.
+
+[45:24] Yeah. And yelling the orders like there's no yeah. Best hot dog I've ever had in a restaurant. Yeah. Yeah, it was laughing at then.
+
+[45:33] Yeah. Yeah. Best. I mean, the problem is is that you need to I've said this on the air, so apologize, listeners, for saying the same thing so many times. They, first of all, eating at home, a skinless Frank, fine.
+
+[45:44] Fine. You know what I mean? You just don't have what you don't have the energy to go out and get a real one. But like the snap on those conies. Yeah.
+
+[45:55] So much better than any hot dog, sorry, Nathan. So much better than any hot dog at Coney Island ever. I mean, I don't even think back when Nathan's was new, they had a hot dog as good as the as the as the Coneys out of out of Detroit. And yet they're called Coneys after Coney Island because were they Greek? Some Greek person happened to stop in Coney Island on their way to Detroit.
+
+[46:15] Yeah, exactly. And and if if you don't know, it's like Detroit's signature food and the classic battle between the two famous ones of American Coney Island and Lafayette, which are in the same building. And I believe American Coney Island is the landlord for both, which is also funny. But um it's like Sally's and Peppy's pizza in in in New Haven, now owned by the same people. Oh interesting.
+
+[46:38] No, yeah, it's so um, in my opinion, the the actual dog is better and has like the um crunch at American, but the the Coney sauce is better at Lafayette. So I think is where you went. Well, yeah, but this is the I mean here's the issue. Like the other thing I've mentioned this before is that the the the thing that you can't get anywhere else is this uh beef heart chili, right? Right, yeah.
+
+[47:02] Uh and I love the beef heart chili, but I would rather have a bowl of the beef heart chili and then that dog with sauerkraut and mustard, because that's who I mean, that's just who I am. I'm a sauerkraut and mustard guy. When I I didn't ask for that because I didn't need to get punched. You know what I mean? But like.
+
+[47:20] Well, you should have gotten mustard on your mustard and onions on the case. Who the hell can tell under all that beef hard chili? I'm sure that's how it came. What do you think about the uh what do you think about the uh people from Flint who also say that they have a good Coney? Oh, interesting.
+
+[47:34] Uh this is new to me. I've been told that Flint also has a different style of but good Coney, but I've never been to Flint. Uh I've been to Flint. I've never had the Conies. Now I'm gonna have to check it out.
+
+[47:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh so what what like what other signatures? What's uh what's a what what else about Detroit food makes it specifically Detroit? Like what do you what do you what do you think about it? Well Detroit pizza, which now New York's getting a little bit of a taste of you bought us one of those.
+
+[48:01] Well, it's deep dish, but the right way, right? So it's not like so Chicago, the sauce is on top and it's like very, very deep. Detroit's is deep dish dish pizza, but you know, cheese on top. Cheese on top. Yeah.
+
+[48:14] Why would you not put the cheese on top? I don't know. Now, in the motor city, I'm assuming that your pizza comes faster than it does in Chicago, where you have to for some unknown reason, something it only takes 10, 12 minutes to bake, you gotta wait 45 minutes for it. Like, God knows why. Nastasi and I went to uh uh right?
+
+[48:33] Was it you? Was it you and I that went? We went to Rick Bayless when we did the Rick Bayless thing. I didn't go with you know. I didn't go with that.
+
+[48:39] So we went to uh do this Rick Bayless event in Chicago. Did John Deberry go with you? I don't remember. We went we went to one of the two or three famous ones, and we're like, we're gonna get a pizza. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:51] So he sits down, he's like, just as you know, it's like they don't talk that way there. It's like it's like 45 minutes to get a pizza. I was like, wait, I thought you just said that it was 45 minutes to get a pizza. Haven't you already raised the dough? Yeah.
+
+[49:07] Do you not have some idea of how many of these things you're gonna make today? I mean, I mean, for real. You know? I mean, are they that different? Like, is someone sitting there and like doing some calculations about the individual thing that I ordered directly off their menu?
+
+[49:25] You know what I mean? And I was like, this is a scam. You know what I mean? And I had it, and it could have been, it could have been baked by the baby Jesus, and I would have been pissed off just because I was so angry that it was taking that long for the pizza puppet. No longer a carpenter, just a pizza.
+
+[49:47] No, Detroit pizza doesn't take that long. There we go. That's what I was asking. Do you do you have little Caesars here? Oh, pizza pizza, yeah.
+
+[49:55] Yeah, there's the I've never been to one. Yeah, there's yeah, Little Caesars. The Illich family. Yeah, they also own all of your sports teams. Yes, yes.
+
+[50:02] That's true. There's oddly like four other national pizza chains that are like originated in Detroit, but those are not all deep dish. So I guess. Wait, Little Caesars is Deep Dish? Uh, or no, not tradition, not the hot and redies, which are always ready for you.
+
+[50:18] The thing about Little Caesars, which I've never had, is you get two pizzas for one cheap price, which leads me to believe that it's gotta be like dollar slice quality. Yeah, it is. Yep, it's still it's worse than that. Yeah. I also, I've said this on the air many times.
+
+[50:35] I like the dollar slice by our bar. It is not great pizza. It costs one dollar. It is, they pay New York City rents, they have two to three live human beings making them, and they come out of an oven and you can put chili flakes on at no extra charge. One dollar.
+
+[50:58] One dollar. I mean, how good can it be? But how bad can it be? Doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense.
+
+[51:04] Get to the question. Someone's like, hey, it's all potato starch on the cheese to make the cheese puff up mom's like, it's a dollar. You know what I mean? It's a dollar. How much does a pizza cost at scars?
+
+[51:16] Like $8,000? I still haven't been able to do that. You have to give them your car? You? Yeah.
+
+[51:22] Why not? Is it because you you enjoy your time more than you enjoy pizza? That's definitely not true. It's on my list. Getting really hungry for pizza.
+
+[51:36] Well, we're gonna have pizza later here, Bursa. So uh one other thing. What about the what about your uh you say I've read, and you told me, I think, that you brought some of your grandma's china into Lady of the House, but you don't use it, right? We do. What are you crazy?
+
+[51:49] No, it was I mean, like what else are you gonna do with it? And then put it on the freaking wall and be like, look, grandma's China. There's so much China that I the women in my family love China. That was like gifts when I was seven years old that my mom would like started me a collection. I was like, what the hell is this?
+
+[52:06] I wanted like Lisa Frank things, but you do it for copying individual plates or for serving dishes? Uh individual plates. And so now we have like people donate their china, like their mom's china, their grandmother's like, you know, when relatives pass, what are you gonna do with this? You're just gonna, you know, unless you're entertaining every night, like we are, right in the restaurant. If you steal one of these pieces of China, we will find you.
+
+[52:30] I do think people walk away with teacups. There's just we go through a ridiculous amount of teacups. People, you're terrible. People, you're bad. But they also other people donate, so really giving it.
+
+[52:40] So really is that just I love that it's such like a community kind of like collective thing that happens. Yeah. I guess same thing with the stealing, you know. I'm kidding. But they love it so much they want to do.
+
+[52:54] Like, if someone's gonna cherish it, then you know. Also, you aim at zero waste, right? Yes. Do you want to talk about that or you don't care? No, yeah.
+
+[53:03] Um so you know, I always say, like, you know, back in the day, cooks have been uh uh chefs and restaurants have been doing this forever because you want to keep your food costs down, right? But to like consciously be thinking, you know, our our comp our raw compost goes to the farm that grows our greens, and that guy, that farmer, Brother Nature, uh he actually plows our um parking lot during the winter, so it's like, oh, that all makes sense. Um we just started cooked compost, which is cool. We haven't done it, so all of our plate scraps are now going to a different farm out in Michigan. Well, that lets you do like meats and fats and all that.
+
+[53:38] Everything, yep. Oyster shells, yeah, all of it. Nastasi, what are you doing over there? This is just V UI. If we have any time, it's radio.
+
+[53:50] Oh, Nastasi Nastasia's making fun of me. So like on the zero, okay. So like I know I've gone off on this a million times, but like there is what you're you're trying to control, and I was in your kitchen, and this is God's honest truths. You're trying to control the stuff going, not let stuff go to waste, like do a good job. Even at an event, which by the way is a nightmare.
+
+[54:11] Oh, what I mean is doing events, if you have like something that you try to maintain, like it's hard enough when you have a controlled menu and when you can control stuff for a week to try to do a good job of not wasting a lot. Right. You know, a week or a month, and you have a freezer and you can control what's going in, you can monitor. Hard enough. When you're doing an event, it is a nightmare, so much waste in events.
+
+[54:36] Events just generate so much waste. So, like trying to have that attitude, I know it's got to break your heart every time you go to an event or see an event because of the waste that that happens. Right. It's just part of it. And cocktails, even more so, I think than food, are built around just intense waste because like we know we're like our ice machines are incredibly wasteful, like we waste a lot of ice.
+
+[54:59] It's like a lot gets wasted. But on the other hand, when I'm charging someone $16 for a drink, you know what I mean? That they don't want you know spence in there, you know what I mean? Like you know, so there's a there's a line. There's a line.
+
+[55:11] And you know, I'm not gonna give someone a bunch of lime rinds for family meal. Right. You know, it's like Alex Corno Shelley used to say that when she was working at one of our three-star places that she worked in um staged in um in France, that one of the chefs, I forget who it was, but one of the chefs used to serve the freaking raft from the consume as family meal. Wow. And she was like, Yeah, we just stayed it.
+
+[55:35] That's what family meal was. I'm sure that he charged her for it, you know, because that's the way those places work, you know. Yeah, so he's like, you know, no waste, waste nothing. And then, like, you know, eat the raft. Can you imagine eating the freaking raft?
+
+[55:49] Hilarious. This is just uh cute little blanched meat and egg lights. With lots of specs, a little salt, yeah. And foam. Can you imagine?
+
+[56:01] God, god, this business is bad. Anyway, uh, but so the event that I went to go do with you, I actually want to talk about you. Uh, and uh, and then I'll just do yeast and we'll go because we had no new questions, no new questions. And I don't think I have any old questions. Anyway, that's some comments.
+
+[56:15] Um you did this event where you had chefs making cocktails, and what was the charity going towards? So the chefs got to pick their own charities. So I was competing for alternatives for girls, which is like just outside of our Corktown neighborhood. Um homeless shelter, they do after school programs and their um outreach for sex workers. So amazing, amazing work.
+
+[56:40] Um, but yeah, all the chefs got to decide what charity they were competing for and kind of get out of the restaurant for a day, make a cocktail, have some fun. Um I mean, you know, there's a lot of like there's a lot of bartender competitions, right? The liquor companies will sponsor them, whatever. So it was sort of fun to make it. You didn't get a liquor sponsor?
+
+[56:59] We did. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but you know what I mean. Like they'll have their own specific ones that have nothing to do with chefs. What I liked about this, so that the conceit was is that they get chefs and not the chefs bar, not the bartenders who are working at their restaurant.
+
+[57:11] The chef comes theoretically, also chef designs, makes the cocktail, and then the judges are bartenders or bar people. And so that's why I was there. I was one of the judges. But the uh the funny that what's nice about it, what's friendly about it, is is that it it lets the the chef doesn't have to be so uptight because they're not competing in their own wheelhouse, so it's not like whose cuisine reigns supreme, you know what I mean? They're they're using their their chef chops in terms of the flavors, uh, but it's not really their skill set, so they don't really have to worry about being shown up as being a garbage face.
+
+[57:52] You know what I mean? In in in the cocktails, which I thought was nice. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you get to have some good-natured prodding between the bar bartender world and the chef world on the judging.
+
+[58:03] And it can be good natured because I'm not like your balance sucks. You know what I mean? It's not like it's not like that. Oh, that's a terrible stir. Yeah, ooh.
+
+[58:15] Anyway, so like I thought it was really nice, and like it'd be a lot of work for you, but I think this is the kind of format that could spin national. Like we could like team up with someone. I mean, it's your thing. So, but but I think it's like, you know, that's the kind of thing I know we could probably do one in New York. We should.
+
+[58:29] That would be a lot of fun. You know what I mean? And then maybe, and then you know, maybe take it to a uh, you know, a couple of different you know what's gross? Uh there people don't live in cities. As far as liquor companies are concerned, people live in markets.
+
+[58:41] Oh, sure, right. Yeah. We could so I was about to use liquor company talk and say, yeah, we could do it in a couple of markets. Cities. Target markets.
+
+[58:50] Yeah. Well, no, and it's gross. They they they limit they everything there's like there's the primary markets, there's secondary markets, there's tertiary, yeah. All based on no, but that's the thing. It's it's not that it's not good.
+
+[59:03] It's no, but it that's why it's such a disgusting way to think about it. It's literally like how many people are there, not how much do those people care. And I think that you know, we've reached a place with the internet, with the ability of everyone everywhere to get all of the information all the time, where all you need is enough people to care. That's all you need. You know what I mean?
+
+[59:22] You don't need eight million people at your front door to be good anymore, I don't think. Right. I mean, I mean, I think that's maybe one of the reasons why there is so much good stuff happening everywhere. Um anyway, so sh let me get into uh I have a question. This is uh, and and we're gonna answer your question real quick, Nathan, just because we don't want you to send uh send our our plans for the V8 to uh all of our competitors.
+
+[59:52] Although we never officially say because can you give Nathan's last name too an email in case anyone wants to contact me? I have his telephone number here. Just kidding. Uh I have a question about calculating how much yeast or sourd start starter to use based on how quickly one would want to leaven a dough. I've done a fair amount of bread baking, but I'm a moron who hasn't kept notes on the different things I've tried.
+
+[1:00:12] You and me both, brother. You know what, people? Nathan's putting out a good point here. I know it takes a little bit of extra energy. I used to keep a bread baking book, actually, a notebook.
+
+[1:00:21] But if you are doing something, and the simpler it is, i.e. simpler in quotes, bread, right? The more you need to take notes on every little thing that you did. If you don't take notes, you are um you are destined to never be able to hone yourself down because you can't go back and see what you did. No one, no one has a memory good enough to remember every step that they've done and how it impacted their final product.
+
+[1:00:45] So the notes aren't just on the prep, the notes are on how it came out and how it came out relative to other things, what the kitchen was like that day. Very especially with bread, but with many, many things, note taking is the key is the key to being someone who can develop things well. Would you uh yeah, completely agree. Yeah. Um, so uh Nathan says, I'm a moron.
+
+[1:01:07] Uh as are we all. Uh, and I haven't kept notes on the things I've tried. I'm wondering if there's a resource you know of that might be able to give expected rise times of given amount of yeast or starter for a given amount of flour. I know there are lots of other variables, room temp, dough at uh dough additives, but a starting place would be great for developing a repertoire of recipes for different time scenarios. Thanks.
+
+[1:01:25] Nathan, no. No, no. What do you think? You want to No, I like I feel like there's so many recipes, even that just they don't even give you amounts. It's just like these are the ingredients, salt, water, flour, that's it.
+
+[1:01:37] You know what I mean? Because there's the humidity of the everything. There's just there's no way for anyone to know what the conditions of your kitchen are or how funky your sour is or your yeast or whatever. Yeah, I mean, every sourdough starter is radically different in terms of not only like the the composition of it, you know, yeast versus bacteria, how active they are, which ones they are, um, the condition of the sourdough at the condition of the starter at the time that you've done it. Like if you bake every day, your stuff's cranking because it it never has time to like overdevelop or die out.
+
+[1:02:14] You're just cranking, cranking, cranking. You know what I mean? And most of the people I know nowadays have favored much kind of longer rises, so they're doing kind of minimal pitch, and then pitches how much yeast you're adding anyway, or starter or whatever. Um the other thing is so like any of those variables is gonna knock you out out of out of the park in terms of being but knock you out of the ability to gauge, but even when you're using um commercial yeast, like you know, red, you know, fleischman's or red star, one of these things, which by the way, I know everyone hates on them, like they're easy, they're there. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:02:51] And uh, but uh, you know, I will say that it has been over 20 years since I've added a whole package of yeast to I always underpitch the the breads and then and pizza dough specifically is the one I cook most often and let it rise a long time. So I'll do I'll do like miniature micro pitches. Like I'll pitch, I'll do like you know, two kilos of flour and I'll put in like half a packet of yeast and then let it instead of just retarding the dough which everyone does just let it rise a lot longer uh Chris uh no not Chris uh Chef Palambino from uh from Motorino was like he's like yeah you could put it in the fridge and retard it or you could just add less yeast I'm like okay Chef. You know what I mean? And then you get the the effects of those kind of long rise times.
+
+[1:03:41] But when you're doing that kind of like micro pitching stuff it's like little variables can change a long time. And so usually what I'll do is I'll let I'll let that kind of stuff rise a long time and then if if it's rising too fast then I'll retard it in the fridge. What do you think? Yeah same we used to we've done ours we have a right now we have a s uh regular sour, a rye sour, and we're actually about to do a this gluten-free sour, which has been kind of funky and cool. What's the base?
+
+[1:04:07] Um there's a little bit of tapioca it's um oats sweet rice brown rice um I'm missing something there's like seven different flowers and what gives it the ability to hold the bubble in the sourdough is it like the goop from the oats what is it? Yeah it's very wet. So it almost needs like a double toast but you can't it's it's super funky. It's like yeah it's cool. You know a lot of uh uh it's been many many years but a lot of the papers that I used to read are like a lot of the like millets for instance which you know yeah there's millet yeah yeah like millet the the bread ability of the millet is greatly increased by um long ferment times where it gets to make other goopy things that cause it to be able to hold gas better.
+
+[1:04:55] Yeah, it's a 15-day the the sour starter was 15 days until it was ready. No. Yeah. Cool. All right.
+
+[1:05:02] Wait, so we're getting kicked off the air now? Yeah, we gotta go. We gotta go. All right, well. Chef Kate, thank you so much for coming.
+
+[1:05:07] Thank you. Hopefully, Nastasi and I can make it out to see you again in Detroit. Maybe do this uh event here someday. Thanks, Boondoggler, for coming back on as usual. We're gonna have apparently uh, you know, maybe the boondogger will be back when I get life coached by Claire, which no, I'm not going anywhere near that, and you shouldn't either.
+
+[1:05:26] Well, yeah, well, listeners, if you want Claire to come life coach, Dave. Remember to remind them who Claire is. Claire is my best friend. She's also a wedding official, your nemesis, and the user of the vegetti. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:05:42] And and I would be interested, maybe if you guys could just do like a general poll as to who thinks that idea would be uh beneficial for Nastasia's relationship with Claire because I think it's a horrible idea. Apparently, Nastasia's relationship with Claire can't be damaged by anything that happens here on the city. I don't know. I feel like a big crack in the world. You would have to be a little like sensitive to her training.
+
+[1:06:05] You would have to What does that mean? What do you think are the chances that Dave is gonna be sensitive to her training? What does that mean? Sensitive to your traditional literally, what is like what is that agglomeration of words mean? You have to be flex that she's like, Dave, let's talk about your issues.
+
+[1:06:17] And you have to be like, okay, Claire, well, I feel like I'm not good at answering emails. And she'd be like, I don't feel like I'm I'm not, I will not answer emails. Cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:06:43] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:07:04] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:07:25] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else. Muckle Shoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest.
+
+[0:26] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble response. Muckle Shoot. This episode is brought to you by Burlap and Barrel, a public benefit corporation working directly with smallholder spice farmers around the world to source unique, beautiful spices for professional chefs and home cooks. This week, on a special bonus episode of Meet and Three, we find out how Brexit could be changing the way that Brits eat.
+
+[0:50] If you're not getting your food from the European Union where Britain gets 30% directly, well, where are you gonna get it from? As I put very succinctly, Bubby Fresh Peaches from Italy, hello tinned peaches from Florida. Bubby Fresh Oranges, hello tinned oranges, Bubby Free Range Beef, hello hormone injected beef. Tune in to hear about the UK's struggle to stabilize its food system on Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup. Available wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:34] This is Dave Arrow, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Air Journey Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever from Earth Pizzeria and Bush Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Uh got Matt in the booth.
+
+[1:47] How are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah? Yeah. Uh so I'm I we have to do this every week.
+
+[1:54] Did you anything interesting? No. No. Nothing interesting. What about you, Matt?
+
+[1:59] Uh, no. God. People tune in just so they can see. You know what? Everybody else also doesn't do anything interesting during the week.
+
+[2:08] It's just not food related. I'm not gonna get into personal stuff. That's not what is that what you want? I don't know. Alright, let's hear about your ceviche.
+
+[2:18] I I have nothing special to say about the ceviche. I put acid on fish, I let it sit there, and then I ate it later. You should write a cookbook about this. Riven. I feel like where is ceviche in its arc now?
+
+[2:32] Like ceviche was like at the top of the universe for a while. Is it just gone back into kind of normal levels? I think it's normal. Like I, yeah, I was like, oh, I have fish. I don't want to do anything fancy.
+
+[2:43] Oh wait, ceviche exists. Okay. Oh. What are your thoughts on Ceviche? Do you enjoy it or do you still are you still like New York's sushi eating queen, or do you not do that anymore?
+
+[2:57] No, I don't do that anymore. You went through one like like a two-year period. But that's because I was with Mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, but you had like the unbelievable sushi consumption repertoire.
+
+[3:07] You'd eaten at all the places. Like eat like so at the higher end places, people be like, it's the best. And you're like, me. Because you had been to all of them. Yeah.
+
+[3:16] Yeah. He spent all of his money in sushi. So you're saying that Mark Ladner is a lot like Booker, my son, who spends all of his money in sushi. Or Wesley Snipes, sorry. Are you like Wesley Snipes spends all of his money in sushi?
+
+[3:31] Wesley Snipes didn't pay his taxes. Yeah, but as a result of sushi consumption? Something consumption. Are you saying that Mark doesn't pay his taxes? Yeah.
+
+[3:41] Okay. You heard it here first, people. That's a big problem. Wesley Snipes and Mark Ladner. That's probably, is that the possibly the only thing they have in common?
+
+[3:51] They should both be on the same episode of Cooking As you. Yeah. Invite them in. Well, I told you, I don't, like, Wesley Snipes had the uh, I think it was Blade. Did we talk about this?
+
+[4:01] Blade, was it Blade Three? Is there a third blade? Blade Three? I think so. And then one of like the like modern, like uh white, like not too large human action figure.
+
+[4:12] One gosling? One of the was it gosling in blade three? Anyway, gosling equivalent white dude. And uh Wesley Snipes would only refer to him on set as that cracker and only in third person. So like if we were sitting here like this, he would say to the director, please get that cracker out of my sight line.
+
+[4:32] And I think that's the best. Like, if if I could like have a job every day where I was ignored by Wesley Snipes and referred to only in the third person as that cracker, I feel like I would have arrived. Yeah. That would be the best. What do you think, Matt?
+
+[4:48] I think you need to bulk up if you're gonna try and get that kind of role. I was saying he wasn't big. No, Wesley Snipes was Blade. And I believe that like random white dude who may or may not have been a gosling, I don't know, when we can look this stuff up, is uh was like, you know, kind of probably the guy who is just you know kind of caught up in the whole good guy vampire thing. Has any of you guys seen the Blade movies?
+
+[5:13] No. God no, we're also joined by uh two people in the studio. We have Kat Johnson, who is the communications director. Uh so in if this is the West Wing, which character is that? Is that Alice and Janny, or is it uh or is it that Toby guy?
+
+[5:34] Which which one are you? I think I want to be Alice and Janney. Yeah I'll go with that. All right. So what is it that you're here?
+
+[5:40] Oh, and we have unknown name, actually, longtime listener, hater of uh Gilden brand shirts. Uh did hates Gilded t-shirts. Gildan, right? Hates. I think so.
+
+[5:53] Hates. Has the correct belief if the if the handle is correct, if the social media handle is correct, hot dog is not a sandwich. No, hot dog is a sandwich. It's not a sandwich. Your handle is incorrect.
+
+[6:06] I'm gonna get in this argument again. Oh we'll save it. We'll save it. All right. All right, hold on.
+
+[6:12] So where do we want to go first? Kat, what's up? Oh, um, well, I have a thank you note for you. The thank you note is from Marcy Goldman. She said that one of her readers let her know on a recent episode that you gave her a shout-out about her recipes and called you, called her a freaking genius.
+
+[6:29] And she feels like she finally arrived. So she says thank you. Oh, well, please, thank you. You know what I mean? Like, all I did was give you a shout-out.
+
+[6:38] You gave me recipes that I'm gonna use for the rest of my life, so what a what a there's no better gift than that. No, really, right? I mean, like when whenever like uh someone comes up and they say, Oh, I I got XYZ tip, and that now I use that in my in my cooking routine or bar routine, I'm like, yes, that's the win. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:56] That's the win. That's all you can, it's all you can hope for in this ratty world. You know what I mean? But what are you here to do specifically? Just to tell us cool stuff?
+
+[7:02] Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna talk to you after the show. Um It's private. You're not put oh, like Nastasia's private, private stuff. What? Dave knows everything about my life.
+
+[7:12] Oh. Please, more than more than I want. Do you want another question though? I have a couple more questions. You won't say anything personally embarrassing about yourself, yet you make me talk about my robotic vacuum.
+
+[7:22] You wanted to. And I have said something. Why is that embarrassing? The people needed to know about that, by the way. What's the number, Dave?
+
+[7:28] 718498498. 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Have we gotten any uh comments on whether people think that Claire should come in and be my life coach? Someone's said that they want a whole episode with no commercials or anything dedicated to this.
+
+[7:44] The commercials keep the lights on, guys. I have to say that as the communications director. What? Are you willing to have her life? Okay, here's what this is what I think you should say.
+
+[7:53] You should say, how do I get to a place where I don't have to carry my own stuff? How do I get people to listen? Like that kind of stuff she will work through with you. She'll say something to the kin of throw all your stuff away, don't have a family and move to a foreign country, which is what she did. You have no idea what she's gonna say.
+
+[8:07] But that's what she did. Okay, but you have to be flexible and nice. Here's the thing. What does anyone out there actually want me to be flexible? Yeah.
+
+[8:18] Who wants me to be flexible? Well, we do to get here on time. Oh, that's not flexibility. That's just doing what you say you're gonna do. Which I in general like to do, but I don't know why.
+
+[8:28] I don't know why I have a uh uh I don't know why. I don't honestly I don't know why. I don't know why I'm always late. I really don't. You don't care about it.
+
+[8:35] We'll work on it. We'll work on it. We we have a caller on the air who I I think I recognize. Oh, yeah? Caller, you're on the air.
+
+[8:42] Hi, Jordan Rothman here. Hey, friend of the show, Jordana Rothman. How are you doing? Well, you know, I'm hanging in there, Dave. How are you?
+
+[8:52] Hey, I say, you know, fair to middling. Fair to middling. Yeah, I mean, that's the best we can hope for, I think. Yeah, yeah. That's the new win.
+
+[8:59] Like, like slight loss is the new big win. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Dave, listen, I had a little incident this weekend, and I wanted to top it over with you, see what you think. Do it.
+
+[9:14] Okay. So here's the thing. This is not the first time this has happened. Okay. That's the first thing you need to know.
+
+[9:20] Okay. It's the second time that it's happened. And the thing that happened is that I was visiting the sea wench, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Wow. At her decommissioned lighthouse in the uh wilds of Stamford, Connecticut.
+
+[9:34] This is all semi true, by the way, people. Yeah, it's basically true. It's basically true. Okay, so I was visiting, and we were having like a really cozy time, you know. We're like talking through our feelings.
+
+[9:46] We were like painting our intention. We played a few hands of rummy. I made a delicious Robelita because she demanded it of me because I had wronged her, and she insisted that I cook her dinner. So it was time to go to bed, and Nastasia and I like to sleep and was not bedtime. It was time to go to bed.
+
+[10:03] Let her tell her story. Honestly, she's one of the worst people. But anyway, it was time to go to bed. And when we go to bed, we like to sleep like Charlie in the chocolate factory style. So, like the, you know, like we sleep head to toe style.
+
+[10:17] You know what I'm saying? I do, I do, but I don't remember like which ones, like Josephine and Joe. I don't remember the other two grandparents' names, do you? No, I don't really remember them, but it's sort of irrelevant, I think, ultimately. But you know, grant grandparents style in the bed, wild Saturday night in our pajamas.
+
+[10:36] We also went to Target. It was a big day. And uh we decided we were gonna light a fire in the fireplace upstairs. Okay. And this is the second time this has happened that we lit the fire and the room filled with smoke.
+
+[10:49] And I said, Nastasia, the room is filling with smoke. This seems dangerous. And she said, it's not, the smoke detector would go off if it was. Guess what? Smoke detector went off again and again.
+
+[11:01] We had to throw a flaming dura flame out a second story window into the churning sea from the balcony. Which by the way, that sounds fun. It was not fun. I'm gonna say this it's the reason it was the most the least fun is because I was an almost interrupt live. No, Jesus.
+
+[11:20] And she she, if you interrupt Saturday Night Live, that's literally it. Another thing you can't do is laugh louder than her or laugh if she is not laughing. Okay, couple of couple of things. You cannot laugh louder than Nastasia Lopez. One, not possible to do.
+
+[11:35] Second, if Saturday Night Live was about to come on, it was clearly not bedtime. So I'm gonna have to give it to Nastasia on this one. It may be bedtime for the rest of the world, but anyone that knows Nastasia Lopez knows that if you have to take a daytime, if you have to power nap, you're gonna be awake from 11:30 to one. Let me ask you something. When is it time to go to bed to get into bed?
+
+[11:56] That is bedtime. Like whether you're sleeping or not, it is time for bed. I see. I don't have a TV near my bed anymore, so I don't I it doesn't compute to me. Like, of course, I I fall asleep on the couch quite a lot, so you know.
+
+[12:11] Yeah, we never do that because the couch is for painting and for rummy, and the bed is for Saturday Night Live and for sleeping, and for pulling flaming dura flames out of the fireplace using a baking sheet and a pair of kitchen tongs and throwing it into the churning seat. So basically, why is it happening? And how can we stop it? And also, how can I convince Nastasia Lopez that it's dangerous and we shouldn't be lighting the fire because it's a bad idea. Okay, okay.
+
+[12:36] First of all, first of all, I'm gonna, I'm not giving this to Nastasia, so please don't yell at me, Jordana. But people over people overreact to a little bit of smoke. There's a couple things going on here. One, I'm assuming, I'm just assuming that you guys check to make sure the flu is open. Yeah, there's no flu.
+
+[12:56] Whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, I mean, it's just a big hole. There's just you can see the night sky. Yeah. You can.
+
+[13:03] Okay. So people overreact, especially when a fire is starting. See, you know how everyone says where there's smoke, there's fire. What it really is is where there's smoke, there's inefficient fire, right? Yeah.
+
+[13:16] It's like the the, whenever a fire is starting, or if you have an inefficient burn, like whether the wood isn't totally dry or anything, you're gonna get much more smoke, right? Which is why when you're doing a smoker, you don't light a roaring fire, you smoke it, you smoldering, you do inefficient, you do inefficient burning of the of the wood. All right. So this is why, like, for instance, like uh fancy Japanese bins charcoal people like say, my charcoal makes no smoke. It's because like it's such that it supposedly burns efficiently enough that it's not creating a lot of smoke, it creates mainly heat, right?
+
+[13:52] Okay, right, right, okay. Uh, for those of you who are big on the on uh what's it called? Rudolph. Uh okay, so that's one. So anytime you're gonna start a fire, unless you're gonna start it, it's hard to start a fire completely efficiency efficiently, you're gonna get quite a bit of smoke on the startup.
+
+[14:10] And what that smoke is not gonna do is kill ya, right? It will make your clothes smell like smoke. It will mess up the paint on your walls eventually by turning it a dingy smoke color. So if you've ever gone to like an old house with like a hearth and you're like, man, this uh what? You know what I mean?
+
+[14:28] That that look, that will eventually happen. But as someone who doesn't have to pay the rent in that in that place, Jordana, it may make your clothes smell a little bit, but it's not gonna kill you. Because the good news is is that once it's going, the smoke's gonna go away because you're gonna start to draw. No one lets me get to that point. Okay.
+
+[14:49] So I'm sorry. Yeah. Smoke detector, which doubles as a carbon monoxide detector and cooking detector. Okay. That doesn't seem safe.
+
+[14:59] So there's a couple of things with detectors of various sorts, right? No one makes a detector. Smoke detector is legitimately detecting smoke. Smoke detector shouldn't be anywhere near you're either cooking or lighting a fire. Because we keep it inside the fireplace.
+
+[15:18] You're saying that's wrong. The way the smoke detector works is it's got a little radioactive safe radioactive source in it, and it's constantly emitting a certain number of particles, and it's looking to see how many particles it's receiving on its sensor. And then when smoke goes through it, it could be anything. For instance, fog machines set off smoke detectors. So if you if you any particulate matter that goes in between the radioactive source and the detector, is gonna intercept some of the particles.
+
+[15:47] The smoke detector's gonna be like, What? And then it's gonna go off, right? So it could be, you know, smoke from your uh from your fog machine. I set off my entire building smoke detectors on Halloween with one of those things, which was a nightmare because I had to rush downstairs on a 20-story building and tell people that not to send the fire department based on my smoke detector while the trick-or-treaters were coming around. Um but in general, what a smoke detector is not there to do is to alert you to the fact that there's smoke in your house while you're awake because guess what?
+
+[16:20] You're awake and you know that, right? Smoke detector is there to alert you to smoke in the situations where you're not actively generating smoke. Like, for instance, your house catches on fire. So any small living situation is smoke detectors is I know we need them for safety people, but it's inherently problematic. Ditto, like carbon monoxide detectors, there are things we do that generate excess carbon monoxide, or you know, conversely, back when I used to have oxygen detectors around all the time at the French Culinary Institute, like oxygen detectors, they're not meant, they they they go off before you're in danger because they're meant to alert you to anything that's out of the norm.
+
+[16:59] Not none of these detectors are built around allowing you to enjoy known transient situations without wailing at you. Why would a smoke detector go off for just heat? They don't go off for heat. They shouldn't go off for heat. Mine does it's who is that person that's a hot this person believes two things that I'm aware of.
+
+[17:22] One, incorrect, the hot dog is a sandwich, which we can have this argument again, and two, not a sandwich, and two, that gilded shirts are created by Satan. Are you familiar with sure? Are you familiar with Gildan, the brand? No, but I like the idea of a gilded shirt. No, no, not gilded, gilded in the game.
+
+[17:41] Gilded in, guild in. And so the theory is that they're well, why don't you explain the theory? Okay, so the first thing with one it's Josh. Hey Josh. Um, what up, Josh?
+
+[17:51] Hi. Uh welcome to the family, Josh. Oh, you know. It's great to be here. Uh Gildan, just it's not that I hate Gildan shirts.
+
+[18:01] It's just that I choose not to like people are entitled to wear Gildan shirts. Uh they should exist. They serve, you know, a market of people who uh, you know, don't like shirts that are comfortable or like fit particularly well. Um the owner of Gilded. Was it you that sent on my social media the image of the owner of that shirt company saying that they had never seen a human torso?
+
+[18:28] Yeah, yeah. So and Josh's point is is that for a mere 50 cents extra, you could go up to anchor. Which I don't great shirts. These are I just Googled Gildan's shirt and they're selling for $1.69. I'm gonna say I aim a little higher, you know.
+
+[18:47] I like 50 cents higher? This is what I'm saying. Break into the $2 range, you know? No, I like an Everlane t-shirt, specifically the Raglin sleeve Everlane tee. It's got a nice mech line.
+
+[19:00] It's uh it's a it's uh traceable in terms of you know, it's factory or whatever. I really I I care for it. I do like it. She's right. Wait, Everline?
+
+[19:09] Is this uh do they make only uh women's shirts or do they make all kinds of t-shirts? All kinds of T's. I'll tell you what I like. I like the Bluffworks t-shirts. I think they're good.
+
+[19:18] Bluffworks is a good shirt. Yeah. What about you, Nastasi? What is your brand of shirt that you enjoy? Uh I don't know.
+
+[19:25] Not not any of the ones you're talking about. Have you tried any of the ones we've done? Have you tried this Everlane shirt? You didn't enjoy it? No.
+
+[19:33] Goof shirts. Goop shirts. Goop shirts. Is Goob a thing? Is this Gwyneth Baltrow's new thing?
+
+[19:39] Goob? Goob. What about you, Matt? What's your shirt? What's your shirt preference?
+
+[19:46] I don't have a t-shirt preference. What about like Matt wears a hair shirt? Wow. He's constantly doing tenants. Well, what does he do to you?
+
+[19:58] By the way, for those of you that don't know, they used to, it's like, have you have any of you ever worn as your under as your against the skin garment, like rough hewn, unworsted wool felt? Brawl? Belt? No. No, like as just a night shirt.
+
+[20:14] It's it's a nightmare. You wouldn't do it. Just take your wool overcoat and put it on against your skin, and you're like, yo, this would suck. So a hair shirt is like that, but worse. Even coarser.
+
+[20:27] Even more what? I'm sending the Safia a picture of a hair shirt that you can all enjoy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, nice. So is it is she correct, Matt?
+
+[20:37] Uh I no! I've never tried a hair shirt. I uh my hair, I'm covered in c always covered in my own hair, so that's kind of like an undergarment. Right. Are you are you a long johns on the outside winner kind of a guy?
+
+[20:50] Uh no, long john under t-shirt. And I don't care what brand t-shirt. Hmm. Forgive yourself, Matt. I uh I am an always wear a t-shirt no matter what.
+
+[21:02] I'm always a minimum two-shirt human. Shower with a t-shirt. But then I have to remove it. You know how hard it is to remove a wet t-shirt? Any idea how hard it is?
+
+[21:11] Do you know how many t-shirts I've ripped in half trying to reach over my back and remove off of my back wet? Like how many, like no, how many? Dozens? Like where you grab the back of the shirt and lift up on it, and this the whole collar just rips off of it. You've never had this happen?
+
+[21:29] So this more to the point, higher quality t-shirt doesn't rip when you're taking it off. Well, it's because I use t-shirts where other people wouldn't, like when I'm going into the ocean or like when I'm in a pool. Because I just don't, I'm never uncovered. You know what I'm saying? Never.
+
+[21:43] Never uncovered. Uh all right. So uh what about Hanes, traditional Hanes or Fruit of the Loom? Haynes is an okay t-shirt. This comes from like trauma from my teenage years where I worked in a place that made T was a screen printing place.
+
+[21:57] So we like manufactured t-shirts for people. And Gileans were always the worst. Their reps were all kind of jerks. Um, and the shirts are bad. So it's like, you know, if it was just a bad shirt, I would be less passionate about it.
+
+[22:10] But their reps were also jerks. Yep. Alright. I made the Satya custom t-shirt one. Was it a guild in?
+
+[22:18] No. American Apparel. Oh. Well, wait. American apparel, like, first of all, they're out of business and that guy was canceled, right?
+
+[22:27] Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, canceled. But were they good shirts back in the day? Yes.
+
+[22:31] Great shirts. Yeah, they were good shirts. I had her, I I had a shirt made that was American Apparel and it said gauche on it. And I gave to her as a gift, and then she immediately spilled kebab grease all over the bottom. No, it was red wine.
+
+[22:44] It was red wine. Red wine and kebab grease. Good pairing, comparing. Well, you know, living up to the gauche. By the way, like, is gauche an okay thing to say?
+
+[22:55] Is it is it anti-left-handed people? Or is it no, it's left, it's left bank. It's gauche like left bank of Paris. Reeve's gauche. So it comes from hating people on the left bank.
+
+[22:59] All right. That's fair. Well, I don't know. As long as it's not anti-left-handed people, I'm good with it. That's sinister.
+
+[23:12] Fear of left-handed people because I don't know, Satan or something. You have a fear of left-handed people? No, I'm saying that that I think that's like a sort of like deep in the culture. Yeah, that's where the word sinister comes from. But this is one of those things we need to get rid of.
+
+[23:26] Like anti-left-handedness is something we need to get rid of. In general. That's fair. But anyway, gauche is just a lacking of social experience or grace, not cashful and crude. And so I anyway, I got it for nostalgia.
+
+[23:38] Because of those lousy left bank Parisians. So gauche. So gauche. Which is weird. Well, I don't know.
+
+[23:44] So back to cooking. One, uh, always wear a shirt under your chef's jacket, people. This is the thing is always wear a shirt under your chef jacket because of this. Nobody in a restaurant wants to see pit stains on your whites. I'm telling you, there is a grand total of zero people on earth that want to see pit stains on your chef's whites.
+
+[24:11] And let me say this. All it takes for a lot of people like me, if I when I was a kid, I I told the story, right? When I was a kid, I went to this place where I ended up working when I was in high school, and the chef just joked with me. Joked with me that he was making the hamburger patties with his arm cut. And I couldn't eat for the whole meal.
+
+[24:34] I couldn't eat. The whole meal, I did, but my mom, which by the way, I can eat people. You know what I mean? Like, even when I was a kid, I could eat anything. I could eat my burger plus your burger plus the other person's burger.
+
+[24:43] All because my dad once, when I was a kid, you know this story? Yes, this one I thought you were telling. No. He ate my I won't get into it. He ate my hamburger because I was being a little weasel about not eating, and then I was scarved from that point.
+
+[24:56] So now I'm the fastest eater that anyone has ever seen in a non-competitive environment. I am the I am one of the faster non-competitive, just my normal speed of eating, and Nastasia hates me for it. True? Anyway, so he made this motion like he was gonna press the hamburger with it, and I couldn't eat the whole night. They thought I was sick because I couldn't eat it.
+
+[25:15] People don't want to eat in a restaurant where you have pit stains or sweat stains on your on your chef whites. Please wear a shirt under those chef lights. Hey Dave. Well, we still haven't talked about the smoke, but yes? Okay, we'll talk about the smoke, and then I think we should take a break so that we can pour wine.
+
+[25:30] Yes. And have a commercial. Here's what's good. Here's what happened to you. Uh depending on the I'll tell her what happened anyway.
+
+[25:39] Or you could tell her. Yeah. So what you need to do is uh you need to start the flu drawing. And once the flu starts to draw, then it's going to be a lot better. So a very fast way to do this, you might not be safe where you are, but it is there near the ocean, is to take a wad of newspaper and loosely crumple it like into a big ball and put it like right underneath the flu and light it.
+
+[26:04] And then do that once or twice, and you're gonna heat up all the air in the flu, and once you've heated all that dense air in the flu with a really fast fire, then the flu is gonna start to draw, and then any flame you have, the smoke is gonna draw up out of the thing, right? So get your fire ready to start, and then above where the fire is gonna be, light a couple of wads, big big old wads of newspaper, and whoosh, you'll get this huge flat fast fire, and you'll see that the stuff starts drawing up the chimney. Once you're drawing, then you can start your longer taking fires that's gonna have more smoldering before they get rolling, right? Is this a Searsol use case? Can you just point your Sears all up the chimney and let it rip for a little while?
+
+[26:46] I don't know that that's enough BTUs fast enough, but I like where you're going with this. I like where you're going. Uh another another thing is, you know, I haven't used a dura flame since I was like eight, because I start real fires. But uh I am. Yes.
+
+[27:03] Yeah, but I mean, aren't they designed to start burning pretty quickly? They do. I think the wood wet. The wood was not wet. The wood with big air coats around it, the dura wood.
+
+[27:15] Oh, it was the wood that was smoking. Yeah. Well, you should get the dura flame going first. Then after it is going and your f and your chimney is drying properly, then add the stuff that's gonna smolder. But I will tell you this.
+
+[27:30] Uh wood that is wet, right? Not dried properly, up to half of the heat output of the wood is used in boiling the water off. Wow. So it's like it's not even close. So, like if you have infinite wood, then sure, go ahead and burn wet wood.
+
+[27:48] It's gonna pop, it's gonna like throw crap onto your uh more creosote onto the outside of your chimneys, uh, etc. etc. But you're only gonna get about half the BTUs out of it. And I'm not gonna get into this argument about whether fireplaces actually heat or cool your house, depending. It's a huge thing on the internet.
+
+[28:06] If you don't know what I'm talking about, just Google it. I'm not gonna get into it here. I'm not. I just I don't know. I'm not.
+
+[28:14] Uh now, what do you say? Yeah, commercial break, pour wine, and then we'll talk about the wine. We'll be right back with cookie and juice. I'm Ethan Frisch, co-host of Why Food and co-founder of Burlap and Barrel, a public benefit corporation working directly with smallholder spice farmers around the world to source unique, beautiful spices for professional chefs and home cooks. We set our partner farmers up to export their own crops for the first time.
+
+[28:43] And they get access to a whole new market here in the U.S., and we get access to spices that other companies can't source. We're honored to work with restaurants including Eleven Madison Park, Blue Hill, and Chaypanese, as well as thousands of home cooks across the country. Visit us at burlap and barrel.com. Dave, go! And we're back!
+
+[29:13] I thought you said you were gonna bring the music back up. No, no. He comes out. How many years you've been doing this? And that comes, he's like, listen, we're gonna bring the music down, and we're gonna bring it back.
+
+[29:21] Last week, last week you guys are in there chair chatting away. There was no time for me to turn the all right. That's the whole show, cheer chattering away. That's all we do. We'll get better every week.
+
+[29:30] We'll get that's you know what? Good life goal. Just get a little better. A little bit better. Get a little better every time, get a little bit better.
+
+[29:38] That's the next big win. Just a little better. Just a little better. All right, so you have a question? Shoot.
+
+[29:42] Okay, the question is from Alex from Toronto. I recently dried a duck in my refrigerator following the instructions from Sirius Eats Sasha Marks. It was extremely delicious. Could I do this with a chicken? Would it also be delicious?
+
+[30:00] I don't know. I mean, look, yes, you could do it. Like, yes, you could do it. In other words, like the flesh of a chicken is no more conducive. As far as I know, the flesh of a chicken is no more conducive to growing bacteria than duck.
+
+[30:19] There's an assumption that it is more contaminated, right? But if you're applying treatments to it to cause uh, you know, microbes to not grow on it and to therefore and also to die out during the drying thing, I don't see why you could, I don't see why you couldn't do it. But then the question is, you have to get somebody to eat it, right? And therein lies, therein lies the rub, right? Is that uh a lot of people don't want to eat you know, uncooked, even if it's cured chicken, but I'm gonna bet you could do it.
+
+[30:56] You know, I would make sure that you're using uh a technique that is kind of guaranteed for um killing off uh you know the the bacteria of interest. But you could still cook it after you dry aged it. I mean, oh, dry aged or dried? Dry aged. Oh, no, don't do that.
+
+[31:14] I don't think chicken's gonna get any better. And here's why. Chicken is already so freaking tender. The average chicken that we have is like six, six and change weeks old when it's slaughtered. I thought you meant like make it like a like a pastrame, like a duck past or whatever you call it.
+
+[31:26] Like a charcuterie board thing. Yeah. That would be weird with a chicken, I would think. Yeah, uh, I don't really it's already tender as hell. Yeah.
+
+[31:34] So I would say don't. Just roast it. Uh yeah. If you want now, uh, so uh Jeremy, right? Omanski and from Larder and uh and Rich Sheeve, our cook quest, friend of the show, just wrote a book on Koji.
+
+[31:48] Did you beat it? I read it. I was supposed to give them a blurb. It was due yesterday. I have not written it yet.
+
+[31:54] Uh but I will write a blurb. It's never happening. It's not true. Anyway, Stasi just likes to be a jerk to me. It's never happening.
+
+[32:02] She likes to be a jerk. I'll put money on it. Okay, how much? Well, see, now you'll know how much. No, no, no.
+
+[32:08] How much? If it's never gonna happen, then you can put some money on it. How much money? Now you're gonna do it. How much more than I'm putting money on?
+
+[32:16] How much money? Nothing now. Everybody get in the chat. Start putting money down in the chat. We won't let them know.
+
+[32:23] Anyway, uh, so uh they're writing a book on Koji. First ever, I think, book solely on on Koji. So we have to have them on. Uh it's coming out, I think, in May. Yeah, do it.
+
+[32:34] Yeah, have them on. Yeah, anyway. So uh they would say that if your goal is to so there's a couple of things going on in dry aging, right? Uh in any kind of aging theoretically. One is you're tenderizing the proteins, enzymatic, like the enzymes are breaking down the muscle fibers in the protein, making them more tender, or as Jacques Depin used to say, more tender, tender.
+
+[32:56] But like he's you ever you ever go see him doing the demos at the French culinary? Tander. Anyway, so the uh that's one thing. The other thing is that as proteins uh are breaking down, but it's also dehydrating, and so with dehydration is gonna increase the um overall flavor of the meat just because you're getting rid of excess water. Um so there's that.
+
+[33:19] And then the last thing is is that as proteins break down, they turn into free amino acids, and free amino acids have flavor, whereas whole proteins do not, typically. Right? So those are the basic basic things. So what if Rich was here, I think what Rich would say is that if you if, you know, the tenderization is not a problem with chicken because it's basically veal at this point already, so just let it, you know, it's already tender enough. Have you ever said to yourself, man, unless they haven't overcooked the chicken, have you ever been like, chicken's tough, unless it's a foreign chicken, right?
+
+[33:55] Like like other countries' chicken, which are older chickens, are tough and have more flavor, right? American chickens, because they are the veal of chickens, they're the worldwide equivalent of veal for chickens, like they are tender enough. I don't need them to be more tender. What do you about you, Josh? You need your chicken to be more tender?
+
+[34:12] No, perfectly content with the tenderness of my chicken. That's right. No one's ever, people are like, oh, it's dry, it's overcooked. No one's ever like, it's well, Nastasi and I aren't going to get into tough chicken. Not gonna get into it.
+
+[34:22] We've already had this that we had an argument last week, off air. It was ugly, I ended up bloody. Anyway, um, so uh the one thing you might want to do if you want to up the umami profile is use some form of short-acting uh koji-based, uh, you know, enzymatic amaranade like uh shy o koji or something like this, but we'll talk more about that when you know, when they come on to talk about their their koji book. Yeah, right? Great.
+
+[34:50] Okay. Uh wine? Okay, what do we got here, Josh? Well, I get up the actual questions from the show. Uh so this is a sparkling chardonnay from a producer called Tebojson.
+
+[35:00] Uh former champagne producer, now making some really nifty wine in uh Charlottesville. Ah, this is from this is this from Charlottesville? Yeah. Oh cheers. Yeah, two Virginia wines for you.
+
+[35:10] Cheers. Cheers. Virginia, land of the uh land of the serpentine walls. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[35:16] I suppose. What do you think, Nastasy? That's good. Do you like it? What does Claire say about Chardonnay?
+
+[35:24] She loves it, obviously. My favorite text. Dave my favorite text I've ever seen. It was a date. We cannot talk about her date.
+
+[35:34] I'm not talking about the date. That's not the important part. She but she said, and and we I use this now, as this is my go-to thing to say. Anytime someone says the word Chardonnay, she's like, I was having a glass of wine, charty ops. Charty ops?
+
+[35:53] Charty Ops. Charty Obs. I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charty Offs.
+
+[35:58] I'm like, I'm like, hell yeah. Is she an oaky buttery girl? Oh yeah. Big old big button. Big Kendall Jackson.
+
+[36:10] Yeah! Enough with her. What do you mean? I'm gonna get in trouble. What?
+
+[36:17] Charty's good. I get uh harassed by my Somalia at work all the time for referring to it as Savvy B as well. Savvy B? Oh my god, that would be a great rap name. Right.
+
+[36:27] Savvy B. I had another one. Dax was gonna have some sort of food-related. Oh, uh, he was gonna be tiki mugs with a Z. Because Dax now exclusively drinks his seltzer out of a tiki mug.
+
+[36:39] He was given for Christmas time or his birthday, like a tiki mug. And so at the table, he's always pounding seltzer out of a tiki mug. It's good living. Yeah, right? It's a tiki mugs.
+
+[36:50] Tiki mugs. Tiki mugs. What what style of rap is tiki mugs? Is that like is that like a North Carolina rapper? That sounds like like it'll like bounce.
+
+[36:59] Trop house. Oh yeah. I was told, I was told, I met yesterday someone who did the exhibit design. My name is Rio. He did he does the did the exhibit design for the fourth floor of the uh African American Museum in DC where like the mothership is and Bootsy Collins and Public Enemy, all that music section, he did the curation for it.
+
+[37:21] And uh he told me that in Atlanta, TI has a trap museum. I'm not surprised. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard in my life. Isn't it the pink house? Is that is he behind that one?
+
+[37:36] There's like a pink house they turned into a museum or something. I I don't know. I have not been to Atlanta. Anyway, uh just there. I missed it.
+
+[37:44] Well, apparently so I said like I I was just like, what? Like, what is that? Like is it like a bunch of like the the horror story in my mind is it's all a bunch of like white suburban teenagers going in to play. I don't know, to me it sounds like a huge nightmare. He had never been.
+
+[38:02] Is this sound like a huge nightmare to you? Uh probably, but no worse than the selfie museum. Oh boy, who just called out on the Oscars. Now, this is why now Nastasia hates movies to go see them because the mouth noises. Right?
+
+[38:16] And sitting next to people she doesn't know. This is why, if you ever ride the subway with Nastasia and she's known you longer than about eight minutes, she'll pull position and force you to sit next to her. By the way, on the subway, that means sitting at the seat that is by the pole so no one can sit on the one side and force you to sit next because she does not want to have any portion of her next to someone she doesn't know. Right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:42] And she also doesn't want, as much as she likes to have friend of the show Paul on and make mouth noises to offend our listeners, doesn't enjoy mouth noises while she's watching movies. In fact, she's ruined movies for me now when I go, because now when I hear people's popcorn crunchling, like it's a quiet people wait for the loud part of the movie to go into that freaking plastic bag. And movie people, why are you giving people plastic bags in a movie? You know what I'm saying? That noise that the plastic bags make?
+
+[39:14] And then like you can't, you can't like rip the top of that bag open. You have to, every time you put your your grubby fist into that bag, you have to punch through it and make all those damn crinkly noises on the way to get whatever rancid thing you're getting out of it. You know what I mean? And if you're sneaking food in, which I know you are, I know you're doing that. Listen, I've done it.
+
+[39:36] Bring a noise-free bag. Like, what's the noise? Does someone make the equivalent of like a velvet food bag that you could just kind of slip into and out of? Get it, yes. Go in, get your snack.
+
+[39:50] Come out, eat it. Like, I'm that guy that when I used to sneak in, because now you know when I'm I'm too old to worry about sneaking stuff in, but we like uh, you know, like even the can used to make me nervous. You would cough. We would have to cough as kids. Well, just wait for the loud part, wait for everyone to get shot, and then as people are getting shot, because you know, it's click, you would cough.
+
+[40:10] I don't want to hear your coughing covering up the can. There's no usher in the film, Nastasia. This is your thing. There's no like authority figure. It was my mom.
+
+[40:20] Your mom, your mom out loud would be like, cough when you open the can, Nastasia. Well, first we had to do what did we have to do first? Oh, well. Ask at the bar. Well, can we talk about it?
+
+[40:29] I think so. So I have always so if any of you have ever worked in a situation where cans of soda are stored prior to their being used. You know that they're stored in filthy warehouses with uh dust on them, rat poop on them, rat pee. A lot of times they're not even overwrapped, they're being like stored in unsanitary situations. They're being loaded, people are picking their nose while they're loading it, wiping their butts and not washing.
+
+[41:05] All kinds of stuff is happening. So I'm a huge believer. This is why I like a bottle, first of all. I like a bottle. And it has been, I cannot remember a time I did not wipe the top of cans thoroughly before I drink out of them.
+
+[41:21] And I I urge all of you to look at the cans of soda that you get and look and see the filth ring. So the way the cans are built, there's a there's a canyon all the way around the thing for strength, right? Because the the top of the thing, you think of it as flat, but it's actually a dome. And there's like an imprint in the top. And in that little, in that little ridge, off more often than not, you will see micro and sometimes macro filth.
+
+[41:46] And so, like, I always kind of wipe it out. And it turns out Nastasia has also always done this, but for a different reason, because in Nastasia's family, it is believed that there is at some point a man, it's very important, a man somewhere in the production of the soda who will be wiping his genitals on the top of the can. And so you have to wipe the top of the can to remove the genital aspect of it. Is that true or false? Yes.
+
+[42:17] Yes. Yeah. So anytime for instance, in a couple of minutes, we're gonna be going to the uh takeout place uh at Roberta's here. We're gonna get two cans of seltzer, I'm gonna get a napkin, and I'm gonna hand it to Nastasia, and I'm gonna say for the genitals. And then she will wipe off her can and throw it away.
+
+[42:36] And that's what's gonna happen. But is that like is just a napkin wipe really enough to remove like whatever genital essence that I were gonna start a business where we I I don't think I can say that on air, but where you have a intentionally like a like a batch of of like of like baby wipe goo that is intentionally doped with said product, right? And then one that's not, and so then you have like dual-sided off on. So you can make your own sodas, you can make an official soda, you have to do the wipe on, and then when you're drinking it, you do the wipe off. I don't think anyone would buy it.
+
+[43:22] It's tough sell. Tough sell, tough sell. Tough sell, people. All right, so we have some questions. Let's get to them.
+
+[43:27] Oh, come on, face ID. There we go. Uh hey everyone in cooking issues, thanks for your show. I'm working through your episodes, I'm not sure if you've addressed this issue on your show yet. But I'm looking for any advice on high-altitude cooking you can give.
+
+[43:42] I just moved to Hipster Paradise, Denver, Colorado, and I'm not sure how to adjust my recipes. I'm assuming Sou Vide won't be affected. I will be using standard apartment electric stovetop until I find a better living situation. Any help will be appreciated more on the electric in a minute. Uh, thank you for your consideration.
+
+[43:57] I really appreciate all the hard work you do. Ryan, not a hipster. Although, Nastasia, have you bent at all on your feeling about hipsters? Are you still uh yeah, yeah. Now that everyone hates them, do you like them?
+
+[44:10] No. Okay. So uh a couple of things about altitude. First of all, the fact you have an electric stove. Remember to read his thing.
+
+[44:16] Oh, what? Isn't that a PS on the bottom or not? No. That's this PS. Oh, okay.
+
+[44:21] I'm here. Um anyway, so when you're at uh at Denver, and by the way, it gets even worse as you go up from there. As you go, so for all those of you that don't know how the United States works, right? We have this thing called the Great Plains, and then kind of at the end of the Great Plains, as you travel west, you hit the Rocky Mountains, right? So you get these kind of like high plateaus that are relatively flat, and then all of a sudden, bang, Rocky Mountains.
+
+[44:47] But those plateaus are quite high. So Denver is right before the mountains. So Denver is is this accurate, Matt? You're liking this? I cannot believe this is the most cooking issues thing you've ever done.
+
+[44:56] You're answering you're starting your answer of a question about high altitude cooking by explaining the geography of the United States. Hell yeah! Alright, let's go. So by the time you make it to Denver, and this is why, by the way, the Rockies, like they're really high, but they don't have the I forget what someone from uh Denver actually told me once. He's like, so like certain mountains, they start low and then they go real high, but since the Rockies are starting from a mile high anyway, because the plateau that they're coming out of is already a mile high, they don't necessarily seem as high as some other mountains that aren't technically as high.
+
+[45:31] Make sense? Anyway, yeah. So at Denver, before you get into the mountains, before you're going up to like 8,000 feet up in Aspen or whatever it is, eight, eight thousand, whatever the hell it is up there, right? You're already at a mile high, and the temperature at which water boils is going down steadily, right? So by the time you make it up to 5,280 feet at Denver, uh, you're looking at about 203 degrees uh uh Fahrenheit, which is I think like 93 or something, somewhere around there Celsius, right?
+
+[46:00] So water is boiling at uh a lower temperature. But that that's what everyone says, which is true, right? So you're like, and I had the unfortunate uh thing of trying to cook dry beans in Denver, not having thought about it, and yes, it takes forever. And rice takes a lot longer to cook in Denver than it takes down here. But that's only the tip of the iceberg.
+
+[46:22] Notice you said you had an electric stove. One thing that's true, the higher you go in altitude, now it should work fine in Denver, but the higher you go, the less powerful your gas burner is because the less oxygen there is. And you'd think that you could solve this by adding more uh gas, right? By changing out the orifice. So listeners of the show will remember that I had a situation once where I had to cook a turkey on Thanksgiving, it was too cold, I didn't get enough gas output, so I drilled out my orifice uh so that I could get more gas output, blah blah blah.
+
+[46:55] And if any of you want to have discussions of gas orifices, man, I will talk to you about it for freaking ever because we're dealing with it right now with the Sears all V8. But that's not the solution because it's not that you don't have enough gas coming out of your orifice, if you don't have enough freaking oxygen. So what you really need to do is derate your burners, or you need to somehow get more oxygen in, right? So you probably should get either just deal with the fact that you get a more powerful burner and it's not gonna be as efficient and you're gonna be throwing gas away and spending a lot of extra money, or get a burner that's built specifically to function better at higher altitudes. Same thing with your car, by the way.
+
+[47:29] Unless you have some sort of like forced air into your car, like a turbo or a supercharger, like you're gonna lose power at altitude in your car. That's why you need to have a more powerful car when you're at higher altitudes, right? Okay. So, or get an electric, get a Tesla, right? That's what Nastasia's gonna do.
+
+[47:45] Although right now you're driving what? I don't want to. Listen. Stop it. Listen, listen.
+
+[47:51] What make is it? Buick? No. Chevy? Yeah.
+
+[47:53] Chevy. I need some advice because Nastasi won't give me. Nastasia needs to get her car inspected, right? But it's got a check engine light. So some genius at Chevrolet, some idiot decided that a problem with the air conditioning system required instead of like a different light, the check engine light to come on.
+
+[48:15] And maybe they did this before this happened, but you cannot get your car passing inspection with the check engine light on, even if the mechanic puts their probe into your computer reader and the computer reader says, don't worry, it's only the air conditioner. Why? Because then you won't know when the check engine light comes on for something else because the check engine light hasn't been cleared. And so even though everyone who's ever owned a car from the 70s knows that when the air conditioner dies, just take the belt off and the car runs fine, it's just you're gonna be uncomfortable. Everybody knows this, right?
+
+[48:51] But you can't do that without getting inspected. So for any of you out there who knows how to defeat the sensor, what year? 82. What? 92?
+
+[49:00] 90, 90 something Chevy, defeat the air conditioner sensor so Nastasia can get her car inspected. Let us know. Alright. So the other things that happen at altitude. So remember, the water boils at a lower temperature, so that's gonna be a problem.
+
+[49:17] Also, evaporative cooling is a huge problem up there, right? So you're gonna boil stuff and evap evaporation cool, so you have to make sure stuff is covered because stuff's gonna boil off a lot faster, right? And oven temperatures are also gonna be thrown off, not just by the fact that water's boiling at a lower temperature, but because water is evaporating off of your product a lot faster and doing a lot more evaporative cooling at the surface. So you might need to jack your temperature a little bit. You also might need to add more water to recipes because the stuff's gonna evaporate more, and so your stuff's not gonna be as moist.
+
+[49:48] Another thing is you'll have to lower the leavening that you use in recipes because you know they're gonna inflate faster. As they inflate faster, they're gonna collapse before they can set. So you have to reduce your leavening, increase your water, probably jack your temperatures a little bit. You're gonna have to take a lot longer to cook things that need to soften specific. Things that are protein-based, like meats, meats will cook at the same temperature.
+
+[50:13] Things that are, but again, you're gonna have extra drying at the surface, and it'll, you know, might take longer to get the temperature higher in a brace or something like this, but all in all, the temperature of protein is the temperature of protein. Things like vegetables, which cooking at a very high temperature, like 85 C and above, these things are just gonna take a lot longer to cook. Be be aware of it. Um get yourself a pressure cooker. Get yourself a pressure cooker, because then you can adjust the pressure for things like beans, rice, long cooking veg.
+
+[50:43] You'll be glad you did. Uh, secondly, look into induction when you're doing it because just do it. Right? All right. Uh so how long do I have there?
+
+[50:53] Four minutes. Five minutes, four minutes. She's Louise. Yep. Um.
+
+[50:58] I've been experimenting with extract brewing at home using malt extract. This is uh, I don't see, it doesn't say it was from. But whoever it is, they're a male in their early early 30s, but their girlfriend lives in another state, so they don't have a hard, they don't get to have a hard opinion on how many crazy cooking things they can splurge on, but we don't know who this person is because Nastasi didn't write it down. Uh I've been experimenting with extract home brewing for a couple of months now. Uh I was wanting to experiment with all grain boil in a bag, which is new.
+
+[51:23] Kevin. And also he didn't write his name in the thing, so okay. Uh boil in bag with my ANOVA uh circulator. However, my largest stock pot is six gallons. Upgrading isn't an option right now, given that most all-grain brewers use large kettles, around eight to ten gallons, to do uh, you know, a five-gallon batch.
+
+[51:40] I was wondering if I could simply downscale all the recipes to fit in a six-gallon kettle with sufficient headspace, would scaling everything down by a factor of 0.8 be acceptable. Yes! Yes, Kevin, you can do that. And I was excited to reel about uh read about boiling bag brewing. Back when I was doing it, all grain, right?
+
+[51:57] No one had thought of that yet. So we were all like doing our initial mash and a mash ton. Then we were doing sparging, which is where you put water over the grains to get the extra award out of them. Then boiling all that stuff down in hops in a pot. So it was like eight billion pots that you needed to use, and it made a huge mess in my kitchen, which is why I stopped doing all-grain beer brewing at my house, right?
+
+[52:20] As soon as my second son was born, I quit. Boil in a bag is even better with the scaled down recipe too, because that is heavy to get out of there if you're doing like 15-gallon batteries. Really? Yeah. So anyway, the yes, you can scale it.
+
+[52:33] The recipes were built from time immemorial around the standard size fermenter everyone used, which is the five-gallon carboy, or if you're like me, uh five-gallon corny kegs. But even five-gallon corny kegs, really, you only want to put about four gallons into them. So if it depends on what you're gonna ferment in, but there's there ain't no problem scaling it down. Matt, what do you say? Correct.
+
+[52:56] Yeah, ain't no problem scaling it down. So do that. So now, in the very few seconds I have left, we still have yet to do plastics in the field. Yeah. All right, today we're doing something that's a little bit not cooking, right?
+
+[53:08] It's uh it's a book that I thought you guys could all go by, but that people hadn't read. In fact, I used to own two copies of this, and I I had tr I I had trouble giving one away because nobody wants to read something unless they already know it's awesome. Have you noticed this, Josh? If you don't already know it's awesome, people don't want to read it. Unless you like get in, I'm a I'm a third chapter bailer sometimes.
+
+[53:27] Yeah. I'll take a risk and read a couple, and then if it's just not holding me, then I'll probably give it away. All right. So for those of you that don't know me, which I guess probably most of you do not, like personally know me. I I but you know, I've said this on air a bunch of times.
+
+[53:42] Um I am a fan of Western style knives, and I am a fan of traditional Japanese knives. I am not a giant fan of the kind of hybrid knives. I don't mind the thin knives. Uh I don't mind the I've gotten you know enough calluses on my uh which finger is this? Index.
+
+[54:03] Index finger, so that like it doesn't bother me to not have that bolster which sucks for sharpening on a classic German or French knife. Fine. But they they it's the uneven sharpening of like the you know, modern like Japanese Western style knife where it's not fully sharpened on one side, chisel sharpened the way that a Japanese knife is, or 50-50 sharpened the way an old German or French knife is. By 50-50, I mean like equal angles on both sides. Um but so anyway, I'm a fan of one or the other.
+
+[54:31] And for those of you that have never owned a traditional Japanese knife, do yourself a favor, go get a traditional Japanese knife. Don't even get a stainless one, and just learn to sharpen your traditional Japanese knife. They're a joy, they're a joy. Whatever, they're a joy. But the Japanese kitchen knife, right, is comes out of the tradition of a Japanese uh samurai sword and sword manufacturer in general.
+
+[55:04] Like that's where that tradition of knife making comes from. And for those of you that ever wondered what's so special about Japanese knife making, or what's so special about Japanese sword making, go read, go find this book, The Craft of the Japanese Sword. And it goes through for the first time in English. It was written by uh Leon and Hiroko Cap, who are the American Japanese sword collectors who wrote the book, and uh Yoshindo Yoshihara, who is a modern traditional Japanese sword maker. And it goes through in detail, first of all, how the how a thousand years ago, the techniques, in the absence of kind of modern science or industrial production, the techniques were made to make the finest blades that the world has probably ever known and may ever will know, right?
+
+[55:56] Uh and then how that technique works from traditional forging, how carbon, how you know how forging, so they the um the traditional Japanese steel is called Tamahagani. And when Nastasi and I went to Japan, I bought some, and it's made like a couple of times a year in traditional smelters. It's regulated by the Japanese government and then hand forged to the correct carbon, layered layer after layer after layer, and then sandwiched into a knife. And so if you've ever wanted to really appreciate how Japanese knives are made and the care that goes into each individual step, or if you just want to see what it's like to really take the process of making something seriously in terms of um just focusing on one thing and doing it to death, which is by the way, not an American thing. I don't recommend Americans act this way because I don't think we would die.
+
+[56:42] I've told the story on the air a bunch of times how a uh a famous Kaiseki chef looked at me and he's like, You've been doing this for what? Like 10 years? I've been doing of course he was from Kyoto, so he didn't talk like that. But he's like, I've been doing this for ten generations, jerk! And then he walked away.
+
+[56:59] You know what I mean? Because he didn't want to have a discussion with me about like innovation or changing or knowledge, because it's a completely different mentality, and most Americans I don't think would function well under the mentality of doing the same thing for 10 generations. It just would chafe us. Wouldn't it chafe you, Seth? Yes, David.
+
+[57:15] Anyway, so the craft of the Japanese sword, go check it out. I'm very like, see if you can do a look inside, see if you can find it. The picture by picture uh like breakdown of how polishing works, the polishing chapter alone is like holy crap. When you read it, the pictures of them forging and making uh the swords all by hand is like life-changing watching people do this. Unfortunately, on Amazon, probably due to a temporary blip, copies are going up for 159 dollars.
+
+[57:45] But check on ABE, see if you can get it. The craft of the Japanese Sword, greatest sword book ever written. Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[57:59] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[58:21] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[58:42] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Robert's, home of Heritage Radio Network for 10 years. Learn more about Roberta's at Roberta's Pizza.com. This week on a special bonus episode of Meet and Three, we're celebrating Mardi Gras with an ode to the King Cake, the most delicious custom of carnival season. This is kind of like terrible comparison, but it's kind of like a braided New Orleans babka, if you really think about the actual technique of it. Do we know why they put a baby in the cake yet?
+
+[0:36] You'd better be careful where you get that cake because your friends and co-workers in New Orleans are gonna have an opinion about it. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup available wherever you listen to podcasts. From Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwigrrr Brooklyn. We are joined with Nastasia, but she is using the ladies' room. Got Matt though.
+
+[1:11] Hello. How you doing? Um feeling great. Yeah? Yeah.
+
+[1:16] Anything anything good happened in the past? I was not here last week, so there was a convergence of your at least internet presence and my real life. Uh I saw that paella cooker that you had put up on the gram, and I was at a wedding at San Francis in San Francisco this weekend, and paella was the main dish, and they had these enormous you know, griddles that they did them on. And then I then I get on the Instagram and you're you're popping off about the paella. Yeah.
+
+[1:44] Well, I mean, maybe there's some sort of like uh like along with the coronavirus, maybe there's some sort of like paella inducing bug that's going around. You know what I mean? Yeah. What a delicious thing to get bitten by. Probably should not joke about the coronavirus.
+
+[1:59] Um it's too late. That's we're on the record. Yeah, yeah. Um, how was the paill at the event? Were you able to pick around the sausage bits?
+
+[2:07] Uh there were two. There was a veggie one. Um it was fine, although I was at the last table to be served, and I gotta be honest. It was a little cold by the time I got to it. Yeah, you know, once and also like once rice like once the paella starts getting too cold, it's gonna start kind of soliding up on you.
+
+[2:25] Yeah. Yeah. So then you're gonna want to make the balls and refry it. You know what I'm saying? So I'm thinking table one's paya was like, but table twelve's paya was yeah, it was a it was fine.
+
+[2:35] Yeah. So yeah, my mom, like it's uh, I was kind of shocked because it's not like usually what she does. I mean, she has a tandoor because she has my tandoor, right? She has a big green egg because she has the big green egg I have. Yeah.
+
+[2:46] But then she goes and buys this like 8 billion BTU paella cooker with this giant pan, and I was like, well done, Ma. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's what's nice is it's rather lightweight, but it's it's big.
+
+[3:00] If you buy it, it's the Mabel brand, right? The one the one issue with it is that uh the you need to really regulate the flame way down. It's like when it comes from the thing, I think the I don't know whether the regulator my mom had was mismatched, and and she was uh because there's you know, there's two different I don't know if you notice there are two different kinds of propane regulators depending on um two different kinds of like barbecue style propane regulators, one that delivers it at like you know, a quarter of a PSI or a half PSI, something like this, and one that delivers it at like eight PSI. And it was like the holes were made for like the quarter PSI, and we had it felt like we had the the like you know, eight PSI or five PSI thing. Because when you jacked it, it's just the flames shot up off the ring and out.
+
+[3:47] And it's more of a gentle flame than let's say like a walk burner flame. So it's not like a it's more just like a this like giant sheet of flame that you put the the big old pan on but yeah. Yeah you know you're cooking things efficiently when the flyer is just like fly flaring up around all sides to an extraordinary degree. Yeah well you're gonna be just right you know what I mean the thing is is that I mean I always say this I always say you know there's no such thing as having uh too much power but it's the problem with too much power in in gas appliances anyway it's with electric it's true you really can't how you gonna have too much you know what I mean but with um with gas implements the problem with very high powered gas is that it they often can't be throttled down low. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[4:33] So in fact when I'm working on the V8 one of the things I'm gonna have to look at is is this too dang powerful you know what I mean? Is it just too much power because um I mean I guess I could also just throttle it with different orificies and whatnot. That's the thing you it's hard like you can change like once you decide kind of the geometry and the flow it's it's hard to get something that's meant to have a big old flame have a tiny little flame and have it not get blown out. You know what I mean? Because it's just not getting the same kind of flow of gas.
+
+[5:03] If you want to have a small flame you should design for a small flame and then it's easy to keep it stable but if it's designed to do you know 4000 BTUs then it's hard to get it to do you know five. You know what I'm saying? Yeah that makes sense. Yeah yeah. Uh we do by the way there was a caller who called in like right before we even got started.
+
+[5:23] I don't know if you want to was it with who I know Alex Talbot's from it was not it was not Alex I don't think it was Alex Talbot. Alright well Alex is gonna call in in a minute let's I'll take the caller caller you're on the air hey Dave it's uh Dave from California how are you doing? All right how you doing good hey I actually uh wrote in to you about the uh a few weeks ago about the Sears all and the power intensity right um a kind of a follow-up to that uh maybe a tangent is uh deep frying what what do you think is kind of the bare minimum of uh power for doing good deep frying um obviously uh given a uh a certain volume of oil I guess right well um well it's okay I mean look are you talking an electric fryer or a gas fryer uh I've got to go electric uh in my case um indoor I know they're indoor yes yeah so if you're if you're not gonna permanently like if you're not gonna permanently put it into the wall or you know since you're in California if you're not gonna have a 220 plug you're completely limited to about 1500 watts like that's it like that's the maximum you're gonna get the the most I can find and yeah it's for uh 240 is uh 3,000 watts. Ah now that's a much nicer number. Yeah like the issue with um the issue with fryers I've and I haven't researched them in a long time.
+
+[7:02] Is uh I'm assuming this is a drop-in electric element uh like how much of a cold zone does it have underneath. It's not just the power, right? So it's the the it's the power versus the the oil amount you have. So, you know, a 40 pound, it's been a while, but a 40-pound fryer, i.e. it holds 40 pounds of oil, is a 40 to 50 pound fryer.
+
+[7:21] It's somewhere in the range of like I think 60 to 80,000 BTUs, somewhere in that range, I think. It's been a while since I've uh looked at the numbers and they're not the top of my head. Um so I mean that's kind of a that's in BTUs though. I don't know how many watt, I'd have to do a watt conversion. I don't have the conversions in my head, I have to go on an Excel spreadsheet and do it.
+
+[7:39] But um, you know, uh I would just do a test. If you're if your unit heats up in five to seven minutes, I'd say you probably have adequate power, right? But the the the there's it's not just a power, right? The problem with um you want to buy a fryer that has the biggest possible elements, right? So you want, so I could have something that's 3,000 watts, and I mean you would never build this, and a quarter of an inch, you know, stick, just a little small stick, right?
+
+[8:10] And the problem is if I'm putting out that much wattage into a very small area, uh, I don't have that much area to conduct the heat to the oil, and it's gonna radically overheat the oil in that range. This is why tube fryers are so good, because the gas that's in them is a it has a very large surface area on which to heat the oil, so it's not radically overheated at any one place. And good electric fryers mimic this by having instead by having either two like larger tubular elements or sometimes ribbon elements in them, so that you have a larger heating surface area, a metallic heating surface area, than you would if you used, let's say, thinner coils that you might find in a toaster, let's say. Something that looks like more of a toaster element. Um so not only raw power, I would look at kind of what the surface area of the heating element is, and then whether they've developed any like sort of trough underneath it to develop a relatively colder zone so that you the particles that are in it don't burn onto the bottom.
+
+[9:06] So the worst are underfired fryers, because it it it it actively scorches the stuff that's on the bottom of the pan. And this is why can't this is why stovetop frying is so problematic. Yep. Yep, I know. I've been stovetop frying for forever.
+
+[9:21] Yeah. Uh so the there aren't a lot of options, obviously, uh in the residential uh units. Um there is a Gaganao, that's the 3,000 watt fella, and it does ha have a cold zone. Uh the heating element flips up and all that. Um it's uh 3.7 quarts, so just shy of a gallon.
+
+[9:45] Of oil, or that's the volume of the unit. It holds that much oil. That's not bad. That's not terrible. The thing just says capacity, so I I I don't know how to read into that.
+
+[9:57] I mean, that's not terrible. So, like uh, you know, imagine I mean I I would just look at the manual and see how much oil they say to add, whether or not because I don't know how they rate capacity, you know what I'm saying? But like if you imagine taking a whole gallon of oil and pouring it into a pot, you would rarely do that at home. Uh yeah, that's that's a lot of oil for home use. Okay.
+
+[10:19] I I'm I'm not above doing that. No, more oil the better. Always. The more oil that your fryer takes, the better off you are. Like uh like as long as there's adequate power, more oil equals better, equals less oil in your food.
+
+[10:32] The more oil you use, and the better your your heater is, and the better maintained the oil is, the less stuff you're gonna get in in your food. Yeah, right. So I so there there is a drain, so you can uh strain your uh oil and reuse it. And I uh even with my stovetop frying right now, I mean I'm I'm no stranger to uh filtering my oil, but that's that's fine. Yeah, and once you get a real fryer, just like you're gonna be like, did I really sit here and try to adjust the freaking temperature of this pot and worry about boil over and blah blah blah blah all this time?
+
+[11:06] That's what you're gonna say to yourself. Get a good vent, near the put it near the window. Yeah, but like I like I said, the the residential units. I don't want I don't I'm not Dave Arnold, I'm not gonna go hack something or get a commercial unit and put it in. I I really wanna stick with a residential electric.
+
+[11:26] So that that limits me. Yeah, well, I mean if you think Gaganao makes good stuff. I haven't tested it, so I can't recommend it, but Gaganau in general makes good pricey but good stuff. Well, I I may I mean you you sort of answered me. I mean, three if you think 3,000 watts for a gallon of oil is pretty good, then it's probably sufficient.
+
+[11:48] I have to do some calcul te tweet at me and I'll I'll try to when I'm offline and can look up the calculations, I'll try to do the calculations. Okay. Alright, cool. Thanks a lot. Okay.
+
+[11:58] Thanks. Hey Stas. Hey. How's you doing? Good, how are you?
+
+[12:02] I brought you a present from Belgium. This is I can never Tirentin Verlent mustard. Thank you. This is this is the mustard that is unavailable anywhere. So so John Nihul, the our the Belgian, our Belgian friend at the Museum of Food and Drink in the curatorial department there, uh he recommended a bunch of places to go, but literally he was like, You have to go.
+
+[12:28] He said, It's unsurpassable, not unsurpassed, Nastasia, unsurpassable, in other words, in not able to surpass it, mustard. You have to keep it refrigerated. They make it in the basement, right? So you go into this shop, and by the way, we weren't even gonna go to Ghent. Like, we weren't even gonna, we're like, what's a Gent?
+
+[12:45] What's Ghent? Matt, you know anything about Ghent? Absolutely not. What's Ghent, right? We're like, you gotta get move that paper a little bit away from the microphone.
+
+[12:52] We're like, yo, Ghent. And the only reason we went to Ghent was to get the mustard. It was the very first place we went once we arrived in Ghent, and I was not surprised uh uh I was not what's it called, uh disappointed. I bought a hundred euros worth of mustard, filled my entire backpack with it. It's all I brought back was mustard and the kind of the clothes on my back through everything with spicy mustard.
+
+[13:14] It's nice, right? So this lady, they've been making it since the 1700s, and the what happens is they they grind it in the basement and they won't tell you anything about it. Like nothing. I was like, hey, uh, where do you make it? In the basement.
+
+[13:28] You can't visit the basement. I'm like, well, I haven't asked yet, but okay, okay, lady. And then uh I guess I mean they never met me, but if you had been there, you'd have been like, lady, you're right. He was gonna ask to visit the freaking mustard downstairs. And then I'm like, I ask her about the grinder, and she goes, My dad built it, I don't talk about it.
+
+[13:47] That was it. She she did give me a little bit. She said, because I asked her, I was like, Do you have like a stone grinder down there similar to like in like a wet grinder like uh from India for like Idli and and and what and Dosa better? Because you know, we know people who make mustard by grind by using those. Like it's a good technique to make mustard at home.
+
+[14:04] And she's like, I don't talk about it, and I won't talk about it with you. There is stone involved. That's all she said. And then she has this giant, like wooden, this giant, like it's like head human head-sized wooden ladle. That gets in your nose, right, Stas?
+
+[14:17] Yeah, it's good. It's really good. So she she has this giant wooden, like head-sized ladle, and then they have all these empty jars. They sell other stuff too, like, but what this is their one thing. They've just whole shelves of empty jars, and then you take the scoop and you go and you scoop it into the jar of your of your choice, and then she warns you to refrigerate it because it's gonna lose its spiciness, and she warns you not to keep metal utensils in it because it's gonna cause it to separate.
+
+[14:43] Uh-huh. That's it. It's really good. They don't ship it, but here's what there's a there is a there's a bootleg version where one of the words is the same. I can't remember whether it's uh Tarrentian or Verlant, but it's like Fernando, and then the other word, and that one they have in the in the airport.
+
+[15:00] So you're like, oh, I missed it, I could buy it now. Bootleg! Bootleg, not real. Uh, what else? So uh before I go into waffle craziness.
+
+[15:09] Is that what you're gonna say, Matt? Do we? Uh well, I was gonna say, so Alex is has called in. I also have 20 second reverse ad to play. We should just do it now.
+
+[15:18] Wait, the ad or the Alex? The ad and then and then Alex. Alright, yeah. My name is Brandon Boyd, co-owner of Roberta's. A super duper awesome place.
+
+[15:31] Robert's is a very, very, very, very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. We're also super awesome. Thank you, Heritage. So that's their appetizing music. That's one.
+
+[15:45] That's their come eat with us music. It sounds like let me eat. Monster, monster, monster trucks! It's like, it's like off the regular show or something, or or you know. Wow.
+
+[15:58] It's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing says come have an enjoy. Can you play that again? Just a little bit a little bit of the music. Give me a little bit of the music.
+
+[16:09] Whoop. My name is Brandon Boyd, co-owner of Louvardis. Come down for an enjoyable meal. That is what it's like here, though. I think it's a reasonably accurate representation of what it's like here.
+
+[16:22] Yeah. That's funny. It's an assault on the senses. Oh yeah, yeah. I get it.
+
+[16:28] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So uh wait, we got Alex or no? I am here.
+
+[16:33] Can you hear me? I can. How you doing? This is Alex Talbot from uh Ideas and Food, by the way, people. Friend of the show, been on a couple of times.
+
+[16:41] Um so I had a question that it just wasn't really my place to answer. So I will read you the question. Uh this is from Daniel uh I don't know whether it's Shar Shargel or Sharjil, Nastasi. What do you think? Uh this is uh regarding gluten-free baking.
+
+[16:58] All right, are you ready? Now, you wanna plug your you want to plug your book so they your your gluten-free books so that they can know where they can go for more information? Gluten-free flower power. All right. Uh where all books are sold.
+
+[17:11] Easiest is the uh the overlord Amazon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what? I have to say, Nastasi and I are gonna go visit the Amazon uh pretty soon.
+
+[17:21] You don't want to commit. I don't want to commit because I don't want to go. You were gonna force me to go. Who's decided that? I've that since when you're not gonna check NA.
+
+[17:32] But that's a stupid thing to say. Because I tell this to my kids all the time. Like 99.9% of the stuff I have to do in life is stuff I don't want to do. You do all of that. But then you're not gonna do anything.
+
+[17:44] I'm never gonna shave again. Like I'm gonna have like a leather man outfit. You know who did what he wanted? The leather man. And he wore like an 80-pound suit of leather.
+
+[17:53] Just do that. You already sort of inhabit a leatherman-like cave uh from you know noon to one on Tuesdays. That's true. That's true. All right, sorry, Alex.
+
+[18:02] Uh that's all right. All right. We'll also represent my uh my donut shop, right? Curiosity donut. Oh yeah.
+
+[18:08] How's it going? It's good. We have uh we have three three locations now. Okay, so wait, so you had you had a location and then you switched into a different place. I don't know what tell people the I've heard, I haven't been, but I hear good things.
+
+[18:20] Why don't you tell people about where the locations are? So the donut shop it started off in the Stockton farmers market four and a half years ago. That's in Stockton, New Jersey. Not Stockton, California, people. Not Stockton, California.
+
+[18:32] Not in Cali, no. Uh yet. Uh so then we actually opened up inside the Whole Foods Market in Springhouse, Pennsylvania. So that's uh our was our our first shop, or our second shop, I guess. And then we're in Whole Foods in Princeton, New Jersey as well on Saturdays and Sundays.
+
+[18:50] I've never been to Princeton. Here it's nice. Princeton's nice. And then uh, you know who came visited me there was Nathan. Really?
+
+[18:57] Mirabold? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Crush just crushed some donuts, which was great to see. It was awesome.
+
+[19:06] Migoya and the crew, they were they were they were taking donuts. But but but Johnny Johnny was there. Nice. Nice. Uh and then we opened up uh a third shop in Tyson's Corner, Virginia.
+
+[19:17] Where's that? And aga Tyson's Corner, Virginia's right outside DC. Okay, okay. Uh and I do you do it right across the river. Do you do a gluten free donut or no?
+
+[19:26] We don't. We uh at Stockton we did for a little while, but there there's so much flour and other ability for cross contamination. Oh so you're like it's like it's like you can't control it enough to make yourself feel comfortable doing it. It's not that you can't make the donut you just don't feel comfortable in your controls. Correct.
+
+[19:42] Because like in gluten free flour power we got a we have a great gluten free donut. Phenomenal but uh in the space that we have we it's not it's not you know we can't we can't we can't do it well. All right give give me a couple seconds to explain this because you know you guys are doing the you guys are doing the the fancy donuts my brother in law Wiley doing the fancy donut there's what is with the donut explosion in the past eight years what is what is it because like you know 15 15 16 years ago you had a couple of kind of non non just not I don't say non commercial what do you like kind of craft donut whatever you want to call it shops right we'll call it craft donuts. Yeah there you go so like uh you know you had in the New York you know you had donut plant who used to be exclusively a yeast house now they're a mixed cake and yeast house um and you know a couple others and then over the past eight years it's like sh or five even really maybe even three right it's been like boom what is it why uh I don't know I I mean I I think I think a couple of things. One is uh I think as as cooks, right?
+
+[20:48] We mean we we like s slightly simpler things or the the idea of simpler things and so there's the nostalgia side of it. Uh and then as chefs we become uh we find a need to make things more complicated or or really I find a way to make things more complicated. I mean, our our donut shop, we make we make eleven different styles of dough. Oh yeah? So not just donuts, but doughs.
+
+[21:10] We have 11 different styles of dough. What is like one of them like uh do you do you have a problem doing uh a high fat enriched yeast like a brioche style? Do they bleed out too much? Or do you like what they don't? I mean, so we that's our our original donut base is the our vanilla yeasted.
+
+[21:27] That was it's it's modeled after the recipe from uh maximum flavor, which was a no-need, double enriched butter brioche style donut. And it doesn't leak out too much, it doesn't get all crazy on you? No, but the the process is insane. I mean it's it's it's it's a again we we doubled the butter in the in the donut, and and we came across that idea. Francisco was was playing around with our no-need brioche recipe from our first book, and he doubled the butter in it and and served it to us at at a uh an event, and we're like, this is insane.
+
+[21:58] And he's like, Yeah, it's called King's Brioche, double the butter. So we we tried that and then I modified it a little bit more to turn it into a donut. Well we put that in. I wonder whether you could double the butter in the Liege waffle recipe. Sure.
+
+[22:11] I don't know. Why not? I don't know. I mean, I uh more often than not I find most doughs can take take way more fat than that's actually in it. So like we have so we have the the we have a chocolate chocolate yeasted, vanilla yeasted.
+
+[22:24] We have our angel donut, which is modeled after an angel biscuit. Again, angel biscuit leavened with baking powder, baking soda, and yeast. What's an angel biscuit? So it angel biscuits are old school southern biscuit, and they they would leaven it with with all three things. So it would be yeast leavened and also have chemical leaveners in it.
+
+[22:40] Uh huh. And it was supposed to be a so so light and fuck, but you get you get the the fermentation from the yeast and then you get the extra lightning from the baking pattern baking soda. Huh. Were they using a sourd milk dough? Did you need the soda just for pH correction?
+
+[22:53] Uh I I think it was just everyone they would they were just throwing everything in there, but I don't know the specific origin of all three. Because my standard pancake batter is, and even my chicken stuff is a soda, is a soda powder mix, but the soda is there for some primary shebam, but also really just to shift the acid down. You know what I mean? Okay. Otherwise it doesn't brown.
+
+[23:16] If you're using people, if you use buttermilk or any sort of acidic ingredient in your baked goods, and you don't adjust the pH somehow, you're going to have sallow, a sallow looking crust. Or it could be the the the ingenious, all you know, like fluffy fluffy white pancakes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's not me. It's not me, but I understand what you're saying.
+
+[23:39] All right, let me get to this question. Uh I have a question about making gluten-free flour mix for bread. Now, here's the problem. You know, this is the here comes the problem. Uh ideally we'd like to create a mix that worked well in hala and sandwich bread.
+
+[23:53] Although I like yeah, I like sandwich, I like halaphora sandwich. I don't see why, you know, why wouldn't you? What the holl are you talking about? I mean, they're they're slightly different though. I mean, uh, the hala's just a slightly richer.
+
+[24:03] Sandwich is gonna be a lighter guy. Yeah, but I'm saying, why can't you use like in other words, if except for the shape of a traditional shape of a hala, that dough works, yes, it's richer, but it works fine as a sandwich bread. Yeah. It's not your clutch it's not a pullman, but whatever anyway. No.
+
+[24:18] Um, our cooking issue is that one of our children can't eat rice or oats. Uh, and those are very common ingredients in gluten free flour. Is there an ingredient that would be still the thing is there's this this this question I think you're gonna take issue with because there's never an ingredient with gluten-free flours. There's always multiples. But is there an ingredient that would be a good sub for rice flour in most recipes?
+
+[24:41] What structural features does rice flour contribute to a bread recipe? Rice flour doesn't do anything. Rice flour is a filler. Right. So what would you fill it with that's new as neutral as rice?
+
+[24:52] I mean, anything works. I mean, why not use quinoa flour or um doesn't that have a taste though? Quinoa flour has a taste. Yeah. I mean, they they all have some sort of taste.
+
+[25:05] Um I mean, I guess rice is the most neutral of them, right? I mean, that's the whole deal. Right, right. Rice is a is a sort of a blank slate, yeah. I mean, but but there's there's there's it's not adding structure very much, or not much.
+
+[25:19] Right, but what would you what like what what's the most like if you if you could never use rice flour again as the as the filler, right? What would you use? That is lowest in in flavor transfer, lowest in weirdness. I don't want I don't want it to get beanie on me. I don't want it to get all, you know, like I mean that's that's what that that's why you're using all the different varieties, right?
+
+[25:41] I mean you just you're gonna keep you're gonna keep adding a mix of the mix of the darn things. So you have a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I mean let me go to my book. Because we have we have three flour blends, which I don't have completely memorized anymore. All right, well, you look at that.
+
+[25:58] Uh sorghum. Sorghum will work. Sorghum though absorbs a lot of liquid and it's dark in color. Do they make a lighter sorghum flour? Not that I know of.
+
+[26:08] Right? It's like, well, in other words, doesn't isn't it more moisture absorbing than rice, or no? Or about the same? I haven't seen I have I haven't seen it, but I mean, I've done sorghum pancakes, right? And I've subbed uh I've subbed up to half of the of the flour base.
+
+[26:28] Right, right? I'm talking not gluten-free, but half of the regular sa flour base with sorghum. And then in the sorghum anyway that I was using, A had some residual sugar, which is I think where the where the extra moisture holding crap probably comes from. I don't know. You know what I mean?
+
+[26:43] And it was just kinda it it had a definite like color cast, and then it was like a little bit intensified and a little bit moist. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, so let's think about we I mean you you got white rice. What about corn flour? That is that illegal?
+
+[27:00] No, corn flour sounds like a good uh that sounds like a good is there really any difference between cornstarch and corn flour? Is it just milled differently? Well, one one is the whole the whole thing and the one's just the starch. So corn flour is uh just a finely grilled finely milled corn meal. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:17] All right. I like that. Everyone likes corn. Some people won't admit it, they'll say it's the devil, but is anyone like I hate corn? Um yeah, I mean you've you've got you've you're gonna have allergies there, but yeah, no, we used we used tapioca starch, sorghum, arrowroot.
+
+[27:32] Um Arrowroots expensive, but nice. Now h here's the thing, it's like if they mentioned that they can't have rice or oats, I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned they can't have corn. I would hope, but uh I mean otherwise becomes a little bit, you know. I mean, the we can mill anything these days. I mean, you see coconut flour, but that's just a filler too.
+
+[27:55] Yeah, that's not bad. Stuff's not bad though. But it but it doesn't but it doesn't absorb any liquid. Almond flour is a good filler too. But again, d it I mean it and it it absorbs no liquid.
+
+[28:08] Right. It's also expensive. Correct. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, that's the problem.
+
+[28:13] Like for cookies and stuff, almond works great, especially if you're gonna use egg whites and whatnot. I mean, hell, whole cookie recipes are basically sugar, almond flour, and egg whites. You know what I mean? But but it's like, yeah, it's not gonna help you much when you actually need structure in a bread, you know. Yeah.
+
+[28:30] I mean, that's that's that's that's the issue. Uh but again, you you you know, then you're then you're looking at you know, corn starch and tapioca starch to give you your your your elasticity and you know, your jelly. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for talking donuts and flour with us, Alex.
+
+[28:47] Come uh come to New York sometime to see us, bring some donuts. We'll talk. Absolutely. You should uh make a field trip when you uh go see uh the old Amazon. They're they're near Tyson's corner, my friend.
+
+[28:57] No, we're going to Amazon in Seattle. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, big Amazon. You're going to like you're going to you're go you're going you're going to the uh the Mecca. Yeah.
+
+[29:07] Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean the thing in Amazon, I'm hoping that I don't know because I've never been, but I'm hoping that the that the front door is shaped like a giant mouth, and that they make you leave through a door on the other side that's shaped like a butt. So it's like Amazon just chews you up and poops you out.
+
+[29:31] You know what I mean? Better yet, they turn you into a liquid and then and then like shoot you through a small pipe. You know what I mean? Like that's what I'm hoping happens when I go there. But you know, you know what I mean?
+
+[29:40] I actually think you leave in a you leave in a box. It's they ship you home. Yeah. With a little smile thing and the tape over the top. Exactly.
+
+[29:49] Yeah. Yeah. I that that's that's what's gonna happen. I I hope I get the new drone delivery. At least that way I'll be in an unpressurized I mean uh in a you know, a space with enough oxygen.
+
+[29:59] Anyway, all right. Talk to you soon, brother. It's a pleasure. We'll talk to you soon. Have a great day.
+
+[29:59] All right, too. Bye bye. Sergio writes in regarding mayonnaise. Hello, Dave and Nastasia. I think it's Serge or Serge.
+
+[30:10] Serge Serge. From Melbourne, Australia. Nastasia, you should give Australia a go. We have fun people, great food and produce, and mostly good weather, but not in Melbourne. What do you think?
+
+[30:21] I don't like your accents, so no. Okay. All right. Okay. So I'm surrounded by Australia haters here.
+
+[30:30] I was gonna not mention that. Well, because you already got you already got a ding. You're already persona non grata in Australia. Yeah, but this guy, Serge is apparently not aware, so can we not talk about that? Serge did not mention the excellent quality of kangaroo hide for whips.
+
+[30:45] World's best. Anyway, um my question is regarding the uh mayonnaise seried steak uh seared steak technique that keeps coming up in my conversations with a friend. Was wondering if there's an actual benefit in it and uh what is it that makes it better? What's the science behind it all? My friend swears that side by side the mayo steaks cook faster.
+
+[31:03] I don't know if it's faster. Anyway, I don't believe it. Any idea of what's going on? Yeah, yeah. So look at this.
+
+[31:09] First of all, what do you what is mayo? Mayo is, I mean it's a little bit acid, but it's oil, water, and an emulsion, right? Then there's egg yolk, which is like proteins and phospholipids and other stuff, and the phospholipids are emulsifiers. I'm gonna get back to this in a second, and some sugar, typically in mayonnaise, right? So, or sugars, but typically they also just add some sugar to it.
+
+[31:31] Alright. So, first of all, it mayonnaise is thicker than oil. So when you're wiping mayonnaise onto your steak, you are giving a better kind of a more a gel-like heat transfer mechanism between your pan and the steak. So right there, you're winning over just brushing it with oil, right? Secondly, the phospholipids, first of all, the water is going to conduct heat much faster.
+
+[31:57] So the oil is going to get up to, I mean, that stuff has to boil off, obviously, for you to get up to the high, you know, searing temperatures, but it's going to accelerate getting in there because it's going to transfer the heat faster, like going through. That's it, right? The also the egg yolk is gonna cause the oil, the phospholipids in the egg yolk, is gonna cause the oil to adhere better because it's got it's you know, got its amphiphilic, as they say, adhere better to the steak, and you're gonna get a better heat transfer there as well because you're not not just gonna have an oil water interface, you're gonna have a uh, you know, one with that has some sort of a uh uh you know surface active properties, which is why used oil in general is better than brand new oil, right? Because it's it's not just pure oil, it's got some fatty acids in it, so this has phospholipids. That's a win.
+
+[32:42] Also, the sugar is gonna combine with the proteins and create its own sort of Maillard stuff and gonna crust up on the outside of the steak. So I'm saying all three of those things are gonna be a win. Right? All right. Uh Kieran, let's see, I get to Kieran in a second.
+
+[32:57] Uh, Christian wrote in regarding gin soda. I currently live on a dry college campus, uh, and I'm also still only 20 years old, so I cannot buy some of the ingredients I would like to make mocktails or cocktails if you're only 20. You can buy any ingredient you want. Don't use the word mocktail, by the way, Christian. Just call them non alcoholic.
+
+[33:13] Don't mock people. Just drink. Anyway, uh, I don't like the word mocktail. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into it, it's gonna take too long. Uh, 20 years old, so I cannot buy some of the ingredients I would like.
+
+[33:25] I just heard something about a gin simple syrup made by infusing gin botanicals, and I was wondering if you had heard of this and would know how to make it and use something like this. I'd be curious to hear how you might make a usable replacement for gin. Thanks, Christian. So I wouldn't make a syrup. I mean, you could make a syrup, but uh the way we used to do it is we made a tea.
+
+[33:43] And the reason is is then you can sweeten it separately depending on what you're gonna use it for. So you make a rather concentrated tea, and then you can add water and or uh sugar to and or acids to your taste. So we used to do um we used to make uh a lemon syrup, so we did basically quinine to make it like a gin and tonic. You don't you can ignore the quinine, but we you made a quinine solution at zero point, we well, I hesitate to give the actual things that we did a juniper tincture, which is just juniper berries, salt, oris root tincture, uh lemon peel, uh I think we did orange peel, a little bit of fenigreek, right? Uh, and then we made teas out of them and then combine them together, and then we added uh clarify we added like clarified either lemon depending or lime uh to it, like cordial, to sweeten it, and then that becomes kind of like a like a gin and tonic.
+
+[34:42] But you know, we didn't use a million of the different botanicals, we basically just did uh juniper, we did quinine for bitterness, or oris, uh, and then citrus peels. You could go kind of more in depth, but just make solutions. Like, for instance, um you could do but anyway, I I uh I could try to post a recipe later because this is in, I forgot that I left it in kind of our workplace numbers, which don't make sense, but that's that's the basis of it. Um okay. Uh see, I did the gluten-free.
+
+[35:14] Let me see. Zach C wrote in about plums and pasta. For the past few years, I've been doing a very uh I've been doing a yearly plum harvest with some friends. We ferment it into wine and then distill it into brandy. I know that stone fruit tend to contain uh stone fruit, you know, uh fermented stone fruit, I think you mean, contains more methanol than other fruits, but I don't really know how much.
+
+[35:33] Do you know of any labs where I can get this accurately tested? Uh well, I put a call into uh Arielle Johnson, our science uh she's not just good eats science person, she's also our kind of go-to science person. And I asked her uh what she thought, because I called. There's an interesting thing, by the way, for any of you food people interested. Cornell has something called the Cornell Food Venture Center, and they'll do lab analysis of pH water activity, bricks, process, nutritional analysis and stuff for very reasonable fees.
+
+[36:05] I called them this morning, but they don't do um, they don't do um what's the word? They don't do alcohol stuff. So I asked Arielle who she thought we she should use, and she said, uh at UC Davis we'd sometimes use ETS, and that's etslabs.com for routine things we weren't set up for. So give ETS labs a call and they could probably test your distillate for methanol. Now, there's an old tried and true test for methanol versus ethanol, and that is you light it on fire.
+
+[36:34] Now it's gotta be don't like for instance, if it burns yellow, it's got methanol in it, right? Methanol burns yellow and ethanol burns blue clear. Now, this doesn't work on things with sugar because sugar doesn't burn blue. Uh so this is only in unsugared spirits you can run this test. But if it burns yellow, there's clearly uh enough methanol for it to be dangerous.
+
+[36:58] If it burns blue, you have a better shot. But uh as Arielle said when I asked her about the efficacy of this test, yellow burning will definitely tell you that it's unsafe. This is her speaking, but I'm not sure what the lower limit is. Like there could be an amount of methanol where the flame test is ambiguous, but the methanol is still harmful. So uh take that for uh whatever it is.
+
+[37:18] Then you asked me, you said um second question. I've got a uh the what are those called? Those those those bigly makers, the torsh the torsh, you know what I mean? Those rotary pasta makers, the presses, the pasta press, like a torshi. It says here torso, but isn't it like torsino or something like that?
+
+[37:35] Anyway, the rotary pasta thing, the whether you press, it looks like a big screw press. It's like uh it's like a like a King Kong kind of uh of a cookie press. You know what I'm saying? With a screw in it with a die on the end? Anyway, I've always wanted one, but I've never bought one, thank God, because if I have a second, I'll talk about the thing that I did buy.
+
+[37:51] Oh my god. Uh we actually have two minutes. Hand-cranked manual brass extruder. It's very cool looking, but it's a pain in the behind to use for any real quantity. Uh I really want an arco, uh, an arco boleno who doesn't.
+
+[38:02] Uh AEX5 home mixer, you know, you know, Alex Talbot has one, the one who just spoke to on the phone. But $1,900 is a lot of money. I recently saw a $200 Phillips pasta extruder. Is uh is that is that cheap thing complete garbage? Yes.
+
+[38:18] That's it. Yes. Okay, great. Moving on. Uh so they don't work.
+
+[38:21] They don't work. Uh and go get uh go like use Johnny Hunter's technique and see if you can like repurpose a small but heavy-duty meat grinder. There are meat grinders, and Johnny Hunter. You know, you could text him on uh on the on the Twitter, he will respond, or on the uh what's it called? Uh uh Instagram, and uh he can tell you what dyes fit what uh meat grinders, and those things apparently do a bang up job because that's what he used.
+
+[38:50] Devin the dude uh I think said something similar that there's modding groups on. This is from the chat room, but also asked, it was unclear uh from a couple weeks ago was my robot vacuum a total loss. No, I was able to resurrect the robot vacuum from the the depths of the dog poop. Um David writes in I've recently started going through, etc. etc.
+
+[39:12] Rotovaps seem to be very delicate pieces of machinery and often made from glass, always made from glass. As our facility does not allow glass to be in the kitchen. Are there any other pieces of equipment that can be modified or have a similar effect? One of the ideas I had to use was to use a vacuum tumbler and somehow put some sort of collecting device between the tumble chamber and the vacuum pump. This would allow us to do a large amount at a time.
+
+[39:31] Uh, unfortunately, I've never worked with a rotovap before, so I'm hoping you could tell me if there's anything I'd be missing in this contraption. Uh we have completely replaced uh this is uh David's Spotify playlist, so thanks for the content. So uh me, yes and no. The very first roto vap I ever had was a vacuum tumbler that I modified. It's fairly easy to buy a rotary vacuum fitting off McMaster car that will allow you to take uh and and and you know, basically have a drum on a rotating thing with a vacuum coming out of it and then branch off of it.
+
+[40:01] And I'm sure your vacuum tumbler, the one I had didn't have a takeoff on it. You just sucked a vacuum and then spun it. It didn't have a continuous vacuum, but if that one does it, that's that's good. But I highly, highly it it never worked great. And I really recommend that you find someone with a roto vap or somehow get a roto vap and get experience on a regular rotor vap first so that you kind of get a feel for how the process works, and then try to build something out of a vacuum tumbler.
+
+[40:29] But yes, it is possible. The issue is you need to get good heat transfer into the vacuum tumbler, right? And you also need to get uh good chilling and you need a relatively large pipe for the vapors to go through. But assuming you can do all that, yes, should work. Um we gotta get off here, Brazyan.
+
+[40:47] Oh man, I didn't get to John Denver about cocktails or anonymous thing on hops. I guess I can get to them next time. I also didn't get the Keoran's Okara question, which was gonna be the classics in the field, which was going to be uh William Shirtleff's uh book on Miso. Now, I could also talk about all of the food in Belgium. What should I do, Nastasia?
+
+[41:09] None, I mean, like I have to talk about while I have like Liege waffles versus Brussels waffles. Maybe I should talk about waffles next week because I have I I'm gonna be doing some work. I'll give you a little bit of a spoiler. I bought the actual waffle iron, like the real one. I had to go to Staten Island, I've got a guy now.
+
+[41:28] But I bought, first of all, you might be thinking big deals a waffle. I want you to think about this while you're waiting for next week for me to talk about waffles. The difference between the top of the line waffle maker is the top of the line waffle maker weighs 90 pounds. 90 for a regular size waffle maker. 90 pounds, costs $4,000 new, right?
+
+[41:53] And you gotta put that head to head against a $30 Hamilton beach, and what's the difference? So you can think about that and think about Liege waffles versus Brussels waffles and why you should never use the word Belgian waffle again, because that's like that's not even that does not that's not even a thing. But we could talk about that next week. Should we save the classics in the field for next week, too? Yes.
+
+[42:15] All right, we're gonna do the Okara question, and maybe I'll do a double classics in the field next week if if we can. Uh we'll come back next week. More cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[42:40] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[42:57] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[43:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Patina Events at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, an idyllic location for weddings, corporate events, and parties of any style. Visit us at patinaevents.com. This week on Meet and Three, we get ready for Super Tuesday by looking at how food shapes elections both at home and abroad. People know that you don't order a Philly cheesesteak with Swiss cheese as John Kerry did back in the 2004 cycle. A young group of friends decided that they would put a website which told us which polling booth's head sausage prime minister David Cameron was pictured about a week after this incident, eating a hot dog in a bomb with a knife and fork because he was so afraid.
+
+[0:50] Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. Join as usual in Nestas Hammer Lopez and Matt in the booth. Today we have special guest, Peter Punching Bang from the Museum of Food and Drink. How you doing? Hello.
+
+[1:26] Calling all your questions to 718497-2128. That's 718497-2128. How are you doing, Matt? I'm doing it. Whenever to whenever, Matt.
+
+[1:36] From whenever to whenever. Whenever we're new. We came up with a new radio show concept that will do it on me then. Just do it at me. Just do it on me.
+
+[1:45] Five times. Just do it without me. Do you want to talk about the new radio show concept we came up with? Indiana. Will you remember where these people live?
+
+[1:53] Stas, why don't you tell Dave about the radio show concept we came up with? The the clothing? Fashion? I want to interview that guy. I want to interview the server.
+
+[2:01] He looks really cool. Wait, he looks like this every day. He literally only owns one pair of clothes. He's dressing this pair of clothes every day. It's a pink shirt.
+
+[2:09] Factually incorrect. Factually. I feel like I've seen those orange, those orange camo, Harlequin camos like every day. Orange and yellow split hole. Nails are new.
+
+[2:20] His hair is always some shade of something. Right. That's a lot of work. It's all the same. It's a lot of work.
+
+[2:26] Essentially, it's gonna be Stas Issues, right? Starts at noon, ends whenever Dave arrives. Let's do it. It's a 33-minute long show. It's longer than cooking it's at this point.
+
+[2:39] It's great. Anyway, uh, are you familiar with the famous camouflage book put out by an English fashion designer who's anti-military? No. It's very expensive. It's hard to get.
+
+[2:50] I try to get a copy, but the author's Maybe you could be a guest on Stas Issues and talk about it. No, it's impossible. It's literally impossible. It is because as soon as I show up, cooking issues starts. Right.
+
+[3:03] So it's not possible to do that. I may run over, though. I may pull Dave Arnold and run over, and then you're gonna have to come on. Alright, bye. You should call in while you're walking.
+
+[3:15] If you don't like it, you can all suck it. I'll leave. No, I think our audience wants you here on time. Alright, well, yeah. No, what they want, apparently people listen, so what they want is kind of what they get.
+
+[3:26] This is what they get. Well, they do start asking where you are, like, you know, much earlier. Is it? You get what you get. Listen, you get what you get, and what's the second half of that?
+
+[3:40] You don't get upset. You get what you get, and you don't get upset. So but should Matt start getting here. I have an idea. Matt, Matt, I got a deal for you.
+
+[3:44] Yes. Like, every time Nastasia actually pays attention during the show, I pledge to be on time the next week. I'm okay. She's paying attention for this part. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:04] Well, because she's gets to make fun of me or make me try to feel bad, so yeah, she's gonna face it. No, no, no. At least back us up on that. I have to say. Whatever.
+
+[4:16] This is my goal. My Peter can be the judge. If Nastasi's actually like, you know. Alright, we'll make a call at the end of the show. Whether she has paid attention.
+
+[4:25] That's right. Well, it's only a 20-minute show, so it's not hard to not pay attention. Uh that's not even a chance. Actually, we do have to go to break. Do we have to not quite yet, but real soon.
+
+[4:36] You know what? It's like F all you. Hey, why don't we talk about cheesesteaks? Oh, yeah. What was that?
+
+[4:42] What was that? Why were they talking about John Kerry and cheese steaks in the intro? Uh they were talking about the the the risk versus reward of uh politicians eating while on the trail because he he looked like a fool when he ordered uh Swiss cheese on his philosophy. That's just because I mean, obviously, what so Peter and I were talking, and like it's just not what you do, right, Peter? It's not what you do.
+
+[5:02] But like, why are they talking about this now? Who did this? I mean, the classic to me is de Blasio knife and forking his pizza. Horrible. Horrible idea, right after he got elected.
+
+[5:11] Everyone face palmed their forehead. New Yorkers don't eat pizza. Nobody. With a knife and fork. Well, uh, in China, you use gloves to wear, which is very weird.
+
+[5:21] Right. You know, but like, I mean, uh everyone gets to do it their own way, but in New York, you're the mayor of New York, you don't need your and so like Carrie ordered Swiss cheese on his cheesesteak. Listen, if you're a politician, it's very easy. Just go and be like, give me whatever. Yeah, give me the usual.
+
+[5:35] Yeah, yeah. What do you make? Give me that. You know what I mean? And then that's what you get.
+
+[5:38] Yeah. And you don't get upset. Right. Nothing on the side. No substitutions.
+
+[5:43] Yeah. But John Kerry was trying to be a man of the people because he asked for Swiss cheese, something that he thought Americans would understand instead of Emman Toller. Right. You know what I mean? Some of that freedom cheese.
+
+[5:53] Yeah, there's so many different kinds of Swiss cheese people. Right. That, you know, to order that just, I don't know. Yeah. She's trying to dumb himself down.
+
+[6:02] I'm a whiz guy myself. I actually when I make cheesesteaks, I use Gruyere. So like Or Conte. Because, you know. Yeah.
+
+[6:13] You know, have you ever had the Louis Lunch uh hamburger? No. You know about Louis' lunch? I've never been. But you've heard about it?
+
+[6:19] Yes. It's like one, it's the New Haven hamburger joint where they have a vertical grill and they use white bread in a toast and they also have like a vertical toaster thing. And they're a cheese whiz. They're a cheese with on burger. What do you thought of cheese wig on cheese with on burger?
+
+[6:31] I love it. I actually I love processed cheese products in general. Yeah? Yeah. Nastasi, what do you think of cheese whiz?
+
+[6:37] Yep. See, not paying attention. Just said yep. Just said yes. I just I'm thinking about all the questions we have to get to.
+
+[6:44] Instead of actually paying attention to what we're talking about. So that's one that's that's one point against me being on time next week. Are we here? Next week you're not here though, right? Oh yeah.
+
+[6:54] You can come whenever you want. She's flying, she's flying to get herself some corona. Yeah. Coronavirus. Uh speaking of which, uh, I would like to hear from anyone whose business they think is currently suffering.
+
+[7:07] We haven't hit like I don't in New York, people aren't, I don't think, afraid to go out yet. I've, you know, it's not been a huge hit on us, but I don't know. Peter, have you have you noticed anyone fewer people going out yet? Matt? Well, Chinatown.
+
+[7:20] Yes. Well, that's just people are racist. That happened a while ago. Yeah, that happened a while ago. Yeah, but no, I mean, I went to I went to Jingfong on a Sunday morning and just strolled right in and got a table, and that just doesn't happen normally.
+
+[7:32] Right. But that's mainly racism. Yes. That's less or yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it I don't want to peck all of it on that, but misplaced fears.
+
+[7:40] So like ninety percent? Right, yeah, 90%. 95%. Speaking of uh racist and uh going to Chinese American restaurants, uh what's happening? We're about to take Chow down at uh Mofad.
+
+[7:53] You want to talk about that? Well, actually, Chow, we did our last day on Sunday. Wait, we're not you're not- I thought that the party was this you're not departing on Saturday? We are no, it's we're gonna be Saturday is the closing party, so people can come and see the exhibition for last time on Saturday. No Friday hours?
+
+[8:08] No Friday hours. Wow, it's over. Yeah. You've missed it, you jerks. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[8:12] When's the lease up? The lease is up end of June. But we are opening African slash American Making the Nations Table. And that's the tickets are just about to go on sale to the public tomorrow. How much are they?
+
+[8:24] The tickets for African slash American making the nations table. Yeah, but what aspect of it? Why don't you explain the procedures? Okay, so alright. Our new exhibition, which we've been working on for almost three years now, which will be, I think, fair to say, head and shoulders above anything we've done to date.
+
+[8:40] Uh it the tickets the it opens April 3rd and tickets go on sale as of tomorrow on MoFed.org.org. Uh so standard tickets are $17, and then we have an upgraded tasting that I can. Why don't you tell them where it is? It's at the Africa Center. Where is that?
+
+[8:57] 110th Street and Fifth Avenue. Right, which is the Northeast Corner of Central Park. Sing the song, dude. The tippy tippy, tippy tippy top of Museum Miles. Also known as one museum mile.
+
+[9:06] Across 110th Street? It's not though. It's on 110th Street. It's on 110 Street. So what you gotta do is you gotta buy your tickets to come and then stop by afterward at Taranga, which is Pierre Chiam's restaurant, Pan African restaurant, next door to the exhibition, and then go for a stroll around uh Harlem.
+
+[9:24] Go up to Marcus Garvey Park, hang out. It's a great neighborhood. Make for a good day. Alright. So uh here's here's some stuff that uh you know we have these arguments all the time when we're opening museum shows, and uh one of them is the whole selling tickets.
+
+[9:37] And here's what I want to let anyone who can hear right now. You don't need to buy a ticket. You can just show up. Now maybe in the first couple of days it's gonna be crowded, but you can just show up and buy one there. Maybe it depends on whether it's okay.
+
+[9:50] We have this, we had this problem also with Chow. We had these tickets, people are like, well, I didn't get tickets, so I didn't go. Right. You you can go. I mean, like maybe the first couple of days it's gonna be busy, you know, God willing.
+
+[10:01] We're actually hoping we're we're we're aiming to sell out, man. So we'll look on the internet and see if I'm so bad. I don't want people to take as a disincentive to go the idea that they don't already own a ticket. Or you know what? Like go on your phone and buy also.
+
+[10:13] Are you selling exactly as number of tickets as the fire department will allow us to get into that place? No, but we have a certain throughput that we can only have go through. Right, but my point is is that like are the tickets like timed? I think people are also people are worried when they buy a ticket for an exhibit that they don't know exactly what time they're gonna get to. Don't sweat it.
+
+[10:28] Just come. Buy the ticket online, buy it on your phone. No, that's actually not the case. Okay. Time tickets you can.
+
+[10:36] Hey, listen, what happened during Chow? This is gonna be different. What it's not gonna be, everyone's it's the same exact it's the same exact process, and you expect a different result. Absolutely. I do not.
+
+[10:44] I expect the same process to have the same result. No. It's not the same process. What's the difference in the process? Well, we actually are in a central location in Manhattan.
+
+[10:56] No, no, no, no. What's the difference in the process? We're actually planning to sell out. We're expecting high demand for the exhibition. That's right.
+
+[11:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But what's the difference in the process? Alright, and this feels like a great place to take a break. Patina Restaurant Group offers unparalleled service in New York's most iconic locations, including Lincoln Center and Macy's Herald Square. Patina is also the exclusive caterer at Brooklyn Botanic Garden.
+
+[11:24] From meetings and presentations in the glass walled atrium to galas in the renovated palm house and intimate wedding showers at Yellow Magnolia Cafe. Your event will be perfectly imagined and customized at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. You can also enjoy brunch and lunch at the picturesque Yellow Magnolia Cafe overlooking Lily Pool Terrace. Executive Chef Sarah Flynn's unique menu includes modern dishes with global flavors with a focus on local and seasonal ingredients. Listen, I've been told during the break that here's what we're gonna do buy your ticket online ahead of time, like Peter Peter punching bag Kim tells you to do.
+
+[12:06] But can they check on the phone if they're in the neighborhood and see whether there's still slots available? You can always try to walk in. It's it's quite possible there'll be spaces available, but if it's sold out, it's sold out. Is there a mechanism for someone who can't make it to switch their ticket to a different time? That's absolutely right.
+
+[12:19] Yes. There is? Yes. Alright, then follow the rules like good museum goers. Alright.
+
+[12:25] Um, anything else to say about the uh about the exhibit? No, that's it. You don't want to tell them why they would want to go? You don't want to tell them what we have there? It's gonna be amazing.
+
+[12:29] I mean, look, we have uh you're gonna get tastings. The first month is by Carla Halls. It's a chocolate, it's a potato chip, chocolate chip cookie. Uh that wasn't that wasn't a flatulence, that was Nastasia manipulating her microphone because. Yeah, we've got VR experiences.
+
+[12:49] We have massive quilt. Oh my god. Okay, listen. The centerpiece of the exhibit is the Ebony Test kitchen. The actual book.
+
+[12:56] Yeah. Is the Ebony Test Kitchen? We have the actual kitchen from Ebony magazine. That's kind of the focal center point of the exhibit. There's a large quilt displaying uh it's 400 blocks, displaying some of the 400 stories, some of them unknown, some of the many that's why there's an infinity sign on the back of it.
+
+[13:15] Yep. Uh like to show that we can't possibly talk about even close to you know the breadth of the contribution in a small exhibit, such as we large but still small compared to the breadth of the exhibit, breadth of the subject. And so the quilt is to kind of show kind of the the depth of the contribution. It's gonna be an amazing show. I'm very excited.
+
+[13:33] It can they still buy tickets for the for the pre-opening or no? Like, are we still selling tickets for that or no? It's over? That was just for tickets. They can buy tickets to the gala.
+
+[13:43] They can buy tickets to the gala. Yeah if you have some money. All right. Um on to the questions. Do you like Sasena?
+
+[13:52] I don't know what Sasina is. Dried beef. Mexican dried beef. I like dried beef all around. All right.
+
+[13:57] I like the Melanin. John writes in Greetings, everyone involved in cooking issues, and hello from Friends to Food Homestead. Recently I've been experimenting with making beef jerky in my smoker. So far, the results are fantastic, and I couldn't be happier with how delicious the product is turning out. I now have a stockpile of beef jerky and we're looking for a way to use it, uh, cooking day to day or even using it uh as a main dish.
+
+[14:15] Question, how should I rehydrate? And once rehydrated, what should I make with it? Can I simmer some to rehydrate, chop the meat, uh make a gravy with water to make a beef jerky? SOS. So SOS is you know crap on a sugar honey iced tea on a on a shingle.
+
+[14:27] I grew up eating this. Um, you know, any any quite although I've seen some internet websites call it same old stuff. It is it SOS stands for poop on a shingle. Yeah. Right?
+
+[14:38] And I grew up eating that stuff, and that is it's crimmed cream chip beef, basically, on toast is what it is. And it used to be made a lot for the military. Although I ate it a lot of times in the in the set in the 70s. I ate it, we ate it all the time. But my I looked on the internet, and what they now sell as chipped beef isn't what I remember.
+
+[14:55] I remember it being more shreddy, and now it looks kind of like just a dried beef bologna product, like a com you know, a ground meat pressed product. But anyway, uh, do you like do you like cream cream chip beef on toast? I love cream chip beef on toast. I don't know, I think I've had it. Really?
+
+[15:10] Mm-hmm. Do you think you would like it? Yeah, it sounds good. Yeah. So the way so like the way you make it is you either pre-soak or don't pre-soak, depending on how salty the uh the chipped beef is, right?
+
+[15:20] And then you make a best bechamel sauce, and then you you stir the chipped beef into the bechamel sauce, so it's kind of like a sausage gravy, but instead of sausage, it's chicked beef. And then you put it on toast, and that's delicious. But I'm gonna go ahead and say that uh the problem with most beef jerky is I don't know your beef jerky, but for uh something like that, it's gonna have to be shaved very thin. Most beef jerky is cut uh thicker, and some people when they cut beef jerky, cut it kind of the long. So, like, are you a beef jerky short fiber or long fiber guy?
+
+[15:51] I like it both ways. Yeah? Yep. Yeah. I think for this kind of recipe, you're gonna want a short fiber.
+
+[15:56] You're not you so you it rehydrates faster. The long, because they're gonna rehydrate along the fiber. So if you do the long fiber, if you you guys know what I'm talking about, right? Whether it's with the grain or across the grain. So if you do a long fiber situation, I think it's gonna stay chewy forever.
+
+[16:10] And it's gonna take a lot longer to dehydrate, whereas if it's mostly cross-cut, then it's gonna rehydrate faster. And I'm trying to remember, I think so. Other recipes you should look at are like Sassina tacos, where in a Sassina it's it's salted and semi-dried beef. So then you could do partial dehydration, partial rehydration, slather it with lard, and then like hit it on a comal to kind of crisp up the outside real quick, and then cut it and shred it into a taco, and it's gonna be a chewy, salty thing like that. But like I think Sasina is like halfway to beef jerky, so it's not like all the way to beef jerky.
+
+[16:48] So like a little bit of soaking, a little bit of lard, a little bit of ch ch ch on the kamal, slice taco. I'll add uh one of my favorite Himalayan dishes is beef sukuti, which is a beef jerky dish with chili oil and herbs on it. Hook me up. How do you do it? Do you partially rehydrate that stuff?
+
+[17:05] I don't know. I've never made it, but I've eaten a lot of it. Where's your favorite place? Uh in Jackson Heights. I've I couldn't name it, but uh play the place we play pool?
+
+[17:13] Well, there's a place, yeah, by the way. Yeah. The the one non-like Himalayan place. I went to Jackson Heights when the style, so we end up in an iris pub playing pool. Of course.
+
+[17:24] That checks out. Um yeah, beef secuti is great. Um there's a place called Mustang Takali in Jackson Heights is a good one. And then uh an Ethiopian dish, quanta furfurfer. They have they basically make uh a furfur, but with beef jerky mixed in with it.
+
+[17:40] It's delicious. It's just a nice, the textural context, uh contrast of the soft injera with the the yeah, the tougher jerkies. Do you like an all Tef injura? Of course. And pro tip is that most Ethiopian restaurants you can call ahead and have them make the full direct.
+
+[17:59] Yep. Really? Yeah. How long do you need to give them? Two days.
+
+[18:04] I can't. I don't assume I'm gonna be alive in two days. Yeah, we call it redstone. They have to ferment the stuff, but like, yeah, a lot of things. How much more do they charge you?
+
+[18:12] It's like I can't remember, it's a couple bucks per thing, but you have to specify how many you want. Which neighborhood is best for that? Do the people do the places up near Columbia University do that stuff? Maybe. Where do you go?
+
+[18:22] I like Queen of Sheba in Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, I was gonna say we should go there. That place is outstanding. Do they have any good mead there? No place I've been to has good meat meat.
+
+[18:31] The best meat I've found is in DC, just in like the little markets. And you want to find the stuff that's just like in crusty one-liter bottles, like not anything that's in a glass bottle. The glass is the no is the I mean, if it's in a wine bottle, it means it's just like it's not, it's not the real stuff. I remember once someone told me, this is a long time ago. They said, the wine in Italy, the food in wine is so hilly, so good in Italy.
+
+[18:55] You could just go anywhere and everything's gonna be delicious. So on my honeymoon in 1995, we were driving a car, we were outside of Florence driving on our way up to Emilia Romana, and we stopped at a farmhouse, and this little old lady with one tooth like stepped out of the farmhouse. We pull the cart, punto, fiat punto. So when we hit the brakes, the doors flew off of it. Lady comes out, she has a like half-gallon like thing, like plastic McGilla of wine, and I was like, this is gonna be great.
+
+[19:25] Little old Lee makes oh my god, was that the worst tasting pile of garbage I've ever had in my whole life? Just such awesome, just garbage. Like, like I felt bad pouring it on the plants. That's how bad it was. Did you tell her that?
+
+[19:39] Because that's what I what I would have done. That's what you would have done. Yeah, that's what Peter would have done, but have you ever had this kind of experience, Decision? Yeah. His grandma made wine in the basement and it was bad.
+
+[19:50] There's something to be said for knowing what you're doing. You know what I mean? Oh my god. Uh speaking of plants. Uh if you ever eat at Roberta's pizzeria, please bring a watering thing with you.
+
+[20:02] Go to the takeout place where the pizza is and water their plants. We forgot. And Nastasia, every like buys, well, buys the radio show, thank you, Patrick. Buys her a seltzer, and she shares half of her seltzer with a three-quarters dead plant that's inside. Oh my god.
+
+[20:19] It's sad. It's really sad. Yeah, yeah. Oh, also, they're busting on you. Uh, Nastasia.
+
+[20:24] In a past episode, Nastasia's mentioned that uh she thinks Mangalista pork is overrated and made it sound like it was bland or invalid as a quality product. Dismissive would be a good description of Nastasia's reaction. Get used to it, brother. Uh, I am getting into uh into specialized into producing pastured uh mangallista and would like to hear more discussion on the topic. Uh how much do you know about where the mangalizia you ate come from, Nastasia?
+
+[20:47] What age was the animal at harvest, what was the animal's diet? I have no idea. Was it grain fed or did it eat a diverse diet? Is the quality reflective of the breed or the producer of the pork you had? Oh my god.
+
+[20:58] Well, I have no idea. We have her attention. I have no idea what he's doing. I don't even remember eating it. I'm helping you out.
+
+[21:04] I'm trying to help you out. You are, but I don't know what he's talking about. You must have said something about it. Yeah, I must have, like, years ago. I don't remember.
+
+[21:12] I mean, it's perfectly plausible. Yeah. When did I eat this? When did we eat it together? I'm sure it was something where, you know, Patrick occasionally gets mengalista, and I'm sure he had it, and you're like, meh.
+
+[21:25] I'm sure that's what happened. That sounds like something you would do. It sounds exactly. How many nuts did it eat, please? Yes, and how many nuts.
+
+[21:35] Anyway, uh this is from John. He wants to see you guys to check him out and see all the piglets and sheep they're growing on at Friends to Food on the Oh, speaking of uh in Instagram, I put out on the Instagram. Uh Peter, you said you've never been to Belgium, right? I have. I've been quite a few times.
+
+[21:50] Who is it that said they didn't go to Belgium? Anyway, Steph, you still live in Belgium. Oh, so uh I like In Lies, in fact. Oh, Steph lived. I never got to go to Leggets.
+
+[21:58] Of course, because it's Francophone Liege. Yeah. It's Francophone Liege. Yeah, yeah. Right.
+
+[22:02] That makes sense because she's a f you know, Francophone. Anyway, I didn't realize until I got there that Brussels is the French-speaking wart in the middle of a Flemish-speaking region. Yeah. Anyways. So the Liege waffles, for those of you that don't know.
+
+[22:19] Beauty Mark. Nice. Bach de Bouti. So if you've never been to Belgium before, what we call a Belgian waffle is really a very bad version of a Brussels waffle. But the majority of people on the street in Belgium are actually eating something called a Liege waffle.
+
+[22:35] American waffles are batter-based, and what we think of as a Belgian waffle is batter-based, although the Belgian ones are yeasted. And what they eat in Liege are brioche dough. Brioche dough with sh like Belgian pearl sugar, which is bigger than the Swedish pearl like like pearl sugar that you get on top of pastry, it's much bigger. Uh and it's almost the size of tapioca pearls. And then they they meld it into the dough and then they put it into this thing.
+
+[22:59] But the problem is, and I don't have time to talk about it, but the waffle irons there cost $4,000. So I found a guy on Staten Island. I was able to get one at a minuscule amount of the price, and I finally used it, and I have almost achieved. Will you stop rifling for your purse, please? It's distracting me.
+
+[23:15] Or at least move the mic away. Like, like it's uh it's a life-changing waffle, people. There's a recipe for it on Instagram. Go to my Instagram and look it up if you need want the recipe. Anyway.
+
+[23:26] They're really good. Jordan Wrightson, longtime fan of the show, looking forward to it every week. I don't have a question, but I wanted to reach out in case Dave, that's me. Ever had trouble accessing scientific uh literature? I'm a food science graduate and student at Oregon State University.
+
+[23:37] I would love to go to Oregon State University to Corvallis and check out their pears. Although I was told that by someone that they don't have a lot. Stas. Yes. What are you writing?
+
+[23:46] It's so crinkly. Here, hold on a second. I'll help you out. Thank you. Um she's making fun of me on paper.
+
+[23:51] And so in order to make fun of me on paper, she needs to like move the thing. Oh, it's someone else maybe. So anyway, uh Jordan, thanks. Someday I will get to visit Corvallis. Although I've heard they don't have all of the pears like you can eat that I want.
+
+[24:02] I want to go see their pears and their small fruits program. And also, for those of you that need scientific papers and don't have access to them and don't mind stealing things, SciHub, S-C-I-Hub, U B. It switches from country to country. The current one right now is Psyhub.tw. What country is TW, Peter?
+
+[24:20] I don't know. Me neither. GW. I don't know. No.
+
+[24:26] So go to SciHub dot TW. But the problem there is you need what's called the DOI. So you go on the non-paywalled search things for scientific literature, and you get what's called the DOI number, and then you paste that into Sci Hub and it'll get you the paper. Okay. I also want him to teach us how to sachet.
+
+[24:42] His sachet we were talking about is so good. Okay, okay. Right, Pierre? You're crazy. He's a crazy person.
+
+[24:48] Uh Ashma Jatley writes in, hey Dave and Cooking Issues Gang, I'm 18 from Indian, a big fan of your approach to food, completed almost 300 episodes from the backlog. Oh my goodness. I want to know about how you sort scientific papers and research work from credible and useful to the just horse hockey. This is my first time chiming in. Really excited.
+
+[25:04] So first, read the, I read the abstract, usually the conclusion on the paper. I then you can check to see how many times it's been cited, which is a useful thing for older work, but it's not always indicative. Some very good papers are never cited and some aren't. Then look at it's uh look at its bibliography, then you read it, see whether it kind of passes the smell test for what's going on. Try to see whether you can uh if they have a good there's if there's not a good section on what they've done wrong in the study, then it's probably not a good paper.
+
+[25:32] They'll also tell you what their conflicts of interest are. Having a conflict of interest doesn't necessarily mean that this stuff is wrong, it just means you have to pay attention to what the axe they had to grind before they start. We all have an axe to grind, right? About I know I do, right? Oh, speaking of, did you see um did you see uh Public Enemy was gonna perform or did perform at a Bernie Sanders rally?
+
+[25:54] Who? Public Enemy? No. Bernie Sanders. The hip hop group.
+
+[25:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Public Enemy is gonna perform at this at this Sanders rally in Los Angeles. And so Public Enemy, for those of you that you know are young, it like was like the conscious hip hop group from like the late 80s, early 90s in New York City, in New York. Anyway, so Flavor Flav, who is probably more famous for a younger generation because of reality TV, was one of the founding members, along with Chuck D, one of the two or three all-time, maybe top ten, let's say, great like like rap voices ever, maybe. Chuck D's voice, intensely good.
+
+[26:30] Anyway, so Flavor Flav sends a message saying, I will not be performing at the Sanders rally. I do not endorse Sanders or anything. So Chuck D fires Flavor Flav from Public Enemy. Fired him like a couple of days ago. It was just like I was like crazy.
+
+[26:48] It's crazy. I mean, like Chuck D was like, first of all, the idea of ownership of Public Enemy is hilarious, but he's like, I own it. I own the trademark, and I'm gonna continue with Public Enemy and Public Enemy Radio, which he did to kind of split off. And he's like, Flavor Flav is done, and was so dismissive of Flavor. Now Flavor Flav's got some issues for sure, but I mean, how are you having Public Enemy without Flavor Flav?
+
+[27:09] Right. You know what I mean? You need Chuck D. And Flavor Flav. And you need Flavor Flav.
+
+[27:15] The future holds nothing else but confrontation. Oh my god, public enemy. Well, how did I get into that? Who knows? It's just.
+
+[27:52] Well, he's contemplating his choice of living in the place he chose to live. Remember, there's no such thing as uh bad weather, just bad coats. I was told that by a dog sledder. Um, when I finally took an antihistamine, the swelling subsided quickly. I figured, uh, what is science without repeatability?
+
+[28:09] So 24 hours later I tried the tincture again. And guess what? The other half of my face got swollen. It's weird that it's like half and half. Uh repeat antihistamine all good.
+
+[28:17] I don't believe I'm allergic to hop. Maybe you're touching your face. Maybe you're touching your face, corona. Uh I noticed there is a decent amount of yellow solid matter that got through the chemex filter I used after the first rough strain. Is it possible this uh is just lots of pollen that is triggering a latent allergy?
+
+[28:32] How would you recommend I filter the tincture? Also, I managed to source quinine sulfate and cystenic acid and should be getting it excited to make my own tonic. Also, is quesadilla a grilled cheese sandwich? No. Peter?
+
+[28:44] No. No. Then he said in the Caesar sent an update. Uh thanks for forwarding my question. I just wanted to provide some additional information.
+
+[28:50] I spoke to a homebrew shop and they told me this is probably due to an issue with lupulin, which is the hop containing sacky sacks on the outside of hops. Uh I think it's it. I mean, he the he put that tincture in the freezer and it and it and it mellowed out. But I apparently I've I read it on the way in, and there are groups of people who are allergic to hop solids in or mildly allergic to hop solids in some of the cloudier kinds of unfiltered dry hop IPAs. I was not aware of this.
+
+[29:17] So just be aware that it could be a thing. And if your face swells up, either deal with it like I do, or you know, don't do that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[29:29] Yeah. Uh I forgot to call up last week's question, but I remember somebody called up uh regarding the um you know Okara? No. Okay, you know the the the soy pulp that's left over? Uh nope.
+
+[29:42] You know, you know soybeans? I do know soybeans. Yeah, yeah. You know how you make tofu? Right.
+
+[29:47] Yeah, so you grind it up and then you strain out the the soy milk. Right. And what's left. Oh, it's called Okara. Okara.
+
+[29:53] Yeah, that well, that's the Japanese. So the the the the word was pop it's it's Japanese. The word was popularized in English by um you know Shirtleff and Oyagi, who wrote the book of tofu and the book of Miso in, I guess, the 70s. Anyway, so the okara is left over, and it's one of the main things that's left over when you're making tofu because when you're making tofu, you have okara, which are the hulls, you have the leftover whey, right? Which I guess you know you could use, they I think wash their pots and pans in it and feed it to whatever, you know, and then you have the the actual coagulant, the tofu, which is delicious.
+
+[30:29] Have you ever made your own tofu? Yes. And how it's delicious. Yes. Have you tried the new the tofu from the new tofu shop that reopened down uh in Chinatown?
+
+[30:36] No. You know the one I'm talking about? I love the old tofu shop, and I was really sad when it was gone. They reopened, I haven't had their tofu yet, but I have had their their like pudding thing. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[30:47] Anyway, uh if you've never had fresh tofu, you're really missing out. Do you like the Korean soft fresh tofu soup? Do you like Cho Dengal? I like Sundubu. Do you have you ever been to that restaurant, Chodangal, that makes their own tofu on 35th Street?
+
+[31:02] Uh no. I I'm sure you know a different. I love like but you like a good Korean tofu soup. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
+
+[31:07] Uh but that's kind of more of a cloudy floating in the soup kind of a situation. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. When you make your own tofu, do you like more of a silk silky or do you like more of a firm? I like both.
+
+[31:17] I mean, it just depends on your application. Right. So they were calling and asking what do you do with okara? Back in the day, I used to save it and then I would try to do everything, basically all of the things you do with the okara are hiding it, right? So you can mix it into pancakes and they make them kind of moist and dense.
+
+[31:32] And if you add only up to a certain amount, it's fine. Do they make the pancakes better? No. You like could take uh and you can mix it into muffins, right? And and up to a certain percentage, they make it moist and the muffins are fine.
+
+[31:47] But do they make it better? No. So it's like I've never had a situation where you're like, oh my god. And apparently you can take the Ocar, you can mix it with sugar, you can press it into cakes, you can dehydrate it and make like a cookie out of it. I never did that.
+
+[31:59] I'm sure that my opinion of it is that it would be fine. But I've never had anything with it that I thought was amazing. Now, if you were gonna be like uh a rich uh she or a new mansky, you know, someone of these koji kind of characters, maybe you could koji fy it and get something decent out of it. And I think some people do press it, cogify it, then crumble it. This maybe you could make something kind of decent out of it because there is residual protein and other things for you to kind of chew on in it.
+
+[32:25] Well, if you're uh if you're aspergillo, it's something for you to kind of work on, uh, but I've never tried it. But the question was about the uh nutritional uh aspects of it. Uh it was hard to do a quick Google search on it, but it is, and I couldn't find it because the book is so big. But this brings us to today's Cosics in the Field Yeah is uh the book of Tofu and Miso by William Shirtleaf and Akiko Ayagi. Now, uh these books were written, I think, in the either late 70s or early 80s, and back then there was no information.
+
+[32:52] So, like when I was first interested in tofu, there was no information. When I say no information, zero. In the past couple of years, uh Andrea Nguyen came out with her book uh Asian Tofu, which is kind of a it's a really it's a good book, I recommend it. But if you want to see what it was like to have to deal with things before there was internet, um you gotta check out, and for like decades it was the only book available. Now, the problem with this book with the tofu and miso is one, you have to sift through if they're evangelists.
+
+[33:20] They are soy evangelists, and uh they run something called the Soy Info Center in California, and eight years ago, you know, when Nastasia still had belief in human beings, we start we're working together a couple years after we started working together. I called up them. So he might be dead now. I don't think he is. I looked it up.
+
+[33:37] I think he's still alive. He picked up the phone. And this is when I realized that he hates people like me. Because remember, I talked about this on the show years ago. I asked him whether you could make a tofu from Edamame.
+
+[33:48] I was trying and failing to make tofu from Edamame. This is back when I was experimenting with uh tofu from peas and tofu from uh tofu from um peanuts, uncooked peanuts, all kinds of legumes before, you know, before there was a lot of experimentation in this kind of field and trying to do it for real, not just setting them with agar, which is how everyone cheats to make quote unquote tofu. Ain't real tofu though. Uh and he basically said, you're wasting something that God has given you, and was like, you should not do that, and and hung up on me. You're putting Swiss cheese on the cheesesteak, so to speak.
+
+[34:21] Yeah, he's like, why would you do that to Edamame? That's such a waste of resources because they are in, they still believe that they're going to save the world with soy. I'm sure that they, you know, like, and that's really what their mission was is to save the world with soy. And so there's a lot of that. But they spent um a lot of time researching this decades studying it, and still to this day, it's like the most unparalleled research library of soy information and bibliography that exists.
+
+[34:45] So if you want information on the nutrition or the history or techniques, go to the soy info center. Pick up a copy of the book of Tofu and Miso. They were two separate books uh by Shirtleaf and Oyagi. Uh, and the thing about it is you have to be careful of is at like any true evangelist. Uh, uh they want to get the information to as many people as possible.
+
+[35:07] So they made a lot of extremely cheap editions of the book. And some of the cheap editions of the book were hacked and mutilated and and reorganized, and whole sections were left out. So try to get older original editions, try to make sure that you don't get abridged ones. The giant book of Tofu and Miso bound together, I believe contains all of the information and was how I got started with it. Anyway, still a classic cooking issues.
+
+[35:40] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[35:55] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[36:17] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendtatable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Alright, here we go.
+
+[0:20] Ready? Three, two, one. Oh my god, wait, how's the song actually go? You gotta go badly. You gotta I can't do anything without the biddle dance.
+
+[0:32] But but in but it's that's too late, though, right? That's too far along. Uh crap on it. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave.
+
+[0:46] Oh, some cooking issues coming to you. Pre-recorded from my house because of COVID 19. What is the heritage radio? What is it? What do we call this?
+
+[0:53] From Manhattan. Here we are. We got Matt in some booth somewhere. Where the hell are you, Matt? I am in Rhode Island.
+
+[1:01] Yeah. Are you on coastal Rhode Island or not? Indeed. Yeah. Newport.
+
+[1:06] Uh yeah, it's nice over there. Are you are did you break into the breaker's house? Are you living in some robber baron house right now? I sleep in one mansion, but I record HRN shows in a different one. Yeah, I mean, the the trick of that is, right, that uh those things are all closed down because of the COVID, so you could totally throw a rock through that and just live in one of those things.
+
+[1:24] That'd be pretty sweet. Well, yeah, and if I can live long enough, I establish squatters rights, and then we're in the money. Yeah, sweet. You know, at least one of us will have some money coming out of this thing. What about you, Stas?
+
+[1:33] Where are you? I'm in Hell's Kitchen. Where do you want to be? I came from Connecticut. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:41] I don't have good reception there. People, I want you to know the only reason Nastasia came back into this COVID hotbed of New York City is for you people, so that she could have decent internet so that she could record this. Is that true, Nastasia? Yeah, my internet's okay, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure. Yeah.
+
+[2:00] We also got Kat. Kat, what's up? I'm still in Bushwick. Uh so one of the things. I'm still here.
+
+[2:08] So uh for those of you that don't know, uh, you know, we're not allowed to congregate together. The radio uh booth is shut down. Roberta's is shut down, as are all restaurants uh except for takeout here in New York. Uh so we will not take calls this week, but hopefully, Matt, we can figure out in on you know coming weeks how to take calls and if we need to. Um so anyway, so we're doing this this way.
+
+[2:32] This is our first time doing it. Our chat room is still open. Not that you can know that because you can't listen to me live, but had you known, the chat room would be open now and you could be chatting in things to Matt while we're while we're doing this. Is that all accurate? And we did actually get a question from in the chat 28 minutes ago.
+
+[2:48] So uh do it. You know, we can we can do that. You want to do that now? Okay, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it. By the way, by the way, people I was not officially late.
+
+[2:54] I had pushed it to 12 30 because I was dealing with Museum of Food and Drink stuff and it wasn't gonna go live anyway. So I was not late because I didn't have to. Also, Dave was technically in this thing at like 11:30. Yeah, earliest appearance of all time. Well, I had to test the equipment, Matt.
+
+[3:10] I'm an equipment guy. I know. I really appreciate that. You are one of the only people to get a failure of the equipment here and figure it out yourself. Yeah, baby.
+
+[3:22] Yeah. I am a failure. I am a failure of equipment. All right, so you want to explain how this whole HRN thing is working, what's going on, or no? Uh I mean, we are doing everything remote.
+
+[3:34] We're trying to keep people. I mean, a lot of people are talking about, you know, coronavirus effects on the food industry. So we want to be uh keeping out all the getting getting all these shows to air. So we're just doing it. We're doing it over streams for now from across across the globe.
+
+[3:52] Yeah. Yeah. Is that what we're supposed to be talking about? The uh effect of COVID on the food industry because it's bad. It's real bad.
+
+[3:58] I think I think we can talk about that if you want to, and we can very intentionally not talk about that if you don't want to, because some people, I'm sure, are desperate to think about something else for a second. Yeah. Yeah. I know at existing conditions, we're still trying to figure out apparently. So for those of you that don't know how this works, in New York, bars and and restaurants are not allowed to serve cocktails to go, right?
+
+[4:22] It's just not allowed. So you know, when they order us to shut down for everything but takeout, that pretty much shuts us down straight up. So, you know, everyone's gone. And it turns out for a tipped employee, it's better usually to lay them off right away, uh, so that they can get their unemployment based on their wages, including tips, at least whatever they've declared. So they now is the only time in your life where it was good for you to have declared all of your tips on income taxes.
+
+[4:50] Um apparently New York City has said that they are relaxing um the rules for having cocktails leave the building. We haven't figured it out yet, but other places have. Part of that's the delivery issues. Nastasia places that are already hooked up with delivery issues because of food probably have an easier time of navigating this, but Nastasia has many choice words to say about seamless grub hub caviar and the like. Is that not true?
+
+[5:14] Some choice words, Nastasia. Yeah, and I think a lot of restaurant people like on social media have been asking um all those delivery places to stop charging the insane prices percentages that they take. Like I've seen everybody ask. So I think everyone vote the same way. Why don't you tell them what they tell them what they take?
+
+[5:35] They take like 25 to 30% of every order. Right. And so you're like, well, but then you don't have to have the service people. It's like, what, what, what? Like, you know what I mean?
+
+[5:43] It's like, like, honestly, like doing takeout, it would is great for our non-tipped staff, but I don't see how it even helps our our tip staff. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[5:57] And so far, those organizations have not caved to that. They have offered like, what is it? They've offered like a stay on paying the commissions, but you the restaurants still owe that money. They just aren't gonna pay it right now, which is that's BS. That's not the same.
+
+[6:12] Yeah, yeah. That's also like like giving someone an interest-free loan. I mean, that's nice if you had planned on taking a loan out. That's great if you had planned on taking a loan out. I mean, when I want to borrow money, man, I want to borrow an interest free for sure.
+
+[6:26] You know what I mean? But like, you know, uh, yeah, whatever. Okay, enough COVID griping, enough COVID griping. Should we answer some wait, what's the chat question? Yeah, here we go.
+
+[6:36] Uh Nathan Page wrote in, I've got a question for cooking issues about some very heritage breed turkeys. It's less than a month before turkey season opens in North Carolina. For the last two years, I've been fortunate. They have a like a springtime turkey season there. Apparently.
+
+[6:53] Um, yeah. By the way, before you read this question, before you read this question, Nastasia and I were at Modernist Pantry. Uh ModernistPantry.com. Uh how long ago, Styles? Like last, like Friday, Thursday?
+
+[7:06] Friday. Friday. So we were we were driving up there soaking up the COVID on our ride up in a in a in a transit van that we had rented, getting all of the spinzalls that we're gonna refurbish. And on the way back, we're barreling down the highway at like, you know, I don't know, 7580 in this giant thing full of spinzalls. And what do I see on the side of the road is a a giant dead wild turkey?
+
+[7:30] No shoulder. No shoulder. How am I supposed to get it? How am I supposed to get it? And plus we needed to get back, and Stassi needed to eat dinner.
+
+[7:38] We thought we were gonna hit traffic going through, you know, on I95 on the way home, and we're there, and we had the opportunity to have the wild turkey for dinner, the wild turkey roadkill, and I feel like I'm never gonna have that opportunity. It looked in okay shape. I mean, its wing was hard effed. But right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[7:58] We had the room in the back of the truck. You imagine just pull open the back, throw the turkey in with the spinzalls, and go. It's a lifelong dream. I've never been every time I've seen a major roadkill, I've never been in a situation where I had the proper vehicle, like something I could hose down, something that's a rental, you know what I mean? Or it's something big.
+
+[8:16] I mean, I'm not gonna eat a woodchuck off the side of the road. A lot of what you see on the side of the road over here is like woodchucks, like raccoon skunks. I've cooked raccoon, no thanks. You know what I mean? Like, but at least the raccoons over here have cooked, no thanks.
+
+[8:27] I mean, maybe a young raccoon's delicious, who knows? But you see a turkey on the side of the road that was clearly hit by a vehicle, and like that's prime eats right there. I'm very good to eat or not, like if it's been there too long. Well, when you feel it, right? You see how fresh it seems.
+
+[8:42] I mean, if it's gone into rigor, it's been there a long time, right? If it hasn't gone into rigor yet, and it seems relatively fresh, and it doesn't have any like effed up. Like, so sometimes if you look at stuff and it's all completely like you ever been to Fire Island? Any of you guys ever been to Fire Island? Yes.
+
+[8:56] Yeah. Yeah, you ever seen those demented mangy deer that they have there? Where like they have some sort of flesh-eating virus on the on the fur and their fur is all gone and they're covered in ticks and they're just like just the grossest deer in the whole world. You seen these? I just saw cute ones.
+
+[9:13] Nah, you didn't look close enough. Were you looking closely? Like, you know, now I guess not. Aside from the I mean, look, what Fire Island has is beaches, blueberries, poison ivy, and mangy deer. That's what they got.
+
+[9:24] You know what I mean? Ticks. Yeah, and ticks. Oh my god, so many ticks. So you got poison, you got your poison ivy and ticks.
+
+[9:30] These are my favorite things. Blueberry, and this mangy deer. But my point is if I saw that deer on the side of the road, I'd be like, pass. Pass. But this this turkey looked this turkey looked fantastic.
+
+[9:42] So, you know, anyway. So go on to Nate's turkey question. Uh I was just wondering, Nastasia, were you if he had pulled over the van, were you are you like down with this plan? You'd be like, yeah, all right, load it up. Yeah.
+
+[9:56] Alright, cool. Just checking. Uh all right. For the past two years, I've been fortunate enough to kill a turkey each spring, but I foolishly did not save any meat for Thanksgiving. Uh we're wondering what's going on.
+
+[10:06] Is this Nate talking or Matthew talking? Matthew's a vegetarian, so I'm assuming it's Nate talking. It's not, it's definitely not me. I've never killed anything bigger than a mosquito. I'm wondering what Dave or others might recommend if I should do if I'm fortunate enough to kill another bird.
+
+[10:19] Freeze whole, freeze one half of it, freeze only the breasts. My experience with the legs slash thighs has been that they need to be slow cooked. I'm not concerned about having a whole turkey to present for Thanksgiving either. Thanks, and I hope y'all are doing well through all of this. Well, you just you just you I mean, first of all, I know you've killed one of those water bugs.
+
+[10:40] So, mosquito, lie. Alright, fine. I've killed a silverfish. Oh, killed all the critters like that. Wait, is a silver fish same as an earwig with the weird horns on it?
+
+[10:51] No, the silverfish is the really long one that's got a bajillion legs. It's very disturbing to have in your apartment. Yeah, I don't like that. Is that the one that eats books? I don't know.
+
+[11:04] Anyway, uh, so what I would say is uh you should you lost me a little bit at I don't care about the whole bird at Thanksgiving, right? If you don't care about the whole bird at Thanksgiving, then sure, break it down into break it down into the the breast, the and the legs, bust out the other stuff for stock and and and do it. But what I would do is I would I would try to freeze it whole. I would use the salt, the salt freeze. So I would like I would do like a crushed ice salt, pack it in, it's gonna like kind of brine it as it freezes it, and then it'll freeze real fast so you get a real fast freeze, so you're not losing um so like you know, make like Clarence Bird's eye, the way they like these figured if you're freezing like thin layers, you do like Ziploc bags with salt and ice and you layer things in between the Ziploc bags, or you put something in the Ziploc bag and immerse it in the salt solution.
+
+[11:58] But if you were gonna brine the sucker anyway, why not just immerse it in the ice salt slush, get a little of the salt in beforehand, let it soak in. It should freeze very, very quickly. And I think that's gonna maintain the highest uh quality over time. So then the idea is is once it's frozen, you want to try to get as much of the oxygen out there, and the only problem with that's gonna be the cavity because the cavity, it's like unless you vacuum it, it's gonna be hard to get uh all of the air out, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as you just get like you know, most of the air out. I don't think you're gonna get much freezer burn as long as you're in a very deep freeze situation that doesn't have a lot of movement up or down.
+
+[12:33] Most hunters, I would guess, have a fairly good chest freezer, uh, you know, that doesn't do a lot of defrosting, and so if you do that, you can maintain pretty high, uh, pretty high quality. Uh all right. Is that a was that not a reasonable answer? No, that sounds sounds great. All right.
+
+[12:51] All right, cool. Uh all right. So uh more chat questions, but again, you can't know that I'm asking you for them because you can't hear me. Okay. Um by the way, Booker is here eating a hard-boiled egg because of course there's no school in New York either.
+
+[13:05] So yeah, can you hear him in the background? Yeah. Booker, you have anything to say to the cooking issues, people. Um I miss you guys. Uh Booker, I don't know if you can hear him.
+
+[13:16] The microphone's over here, Booker. He says he misses coming on the show and talking to you guys. You can come more. And he doesn't, he no longer wants people to associate him with shut up, Dad. He no longer wishes to be associated with because it was cruel of me.
+
+[13:30] I should not have done that. You know it was cruel of you, but to get rid of it. He can't hear he can't he can't hear you guys. He can't hear me? No, because I have headphones on.
+
+[13:42] This is how this works. This is like how this system works. He can't he can't hear you. But if you have a question, I can give it to him. Tell him it was cruel to not show up on time at work.
+
+[13:52] Uh Nastasia, your former boss says it was not cruel of you to not show up on time at work. So it was cruel of you to not show up at time. It was cruel of the F train to delay me 20 minutes and skip the and skip 14th Street. Oh, yeah. Tell us someone in the hour and a half.
+
+[14:08] He was late. There's no way it was 20 minutes. She says you were late over an hour and a half, and there's no possible excuse for that. That's almost a no-call no show. And if you weren't, you know, fundamentally family, you'd be on your ear.
+
+[14:14] Yes. What do you think? Did she even hear my response? Yes. Yeah, but she's not buying the delayed F train excuse.
+
+[14:29] See, like father like son with the delayed train excuse. Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right. So Mark wrote in from Camloops, which is that place in Canada we talked about.
+
+[14:42] What was it that they have in Camloops again? There was something that they do specifically in Camloops, but I can't remember what it was. Mark from Canneloops. By the way, Mark, you made a comment about Nastasi and moistness. She does not appreciate it, right, Stas?
+
+[14:54] Well, there's no equivalent dick thing, you know. Well, we're not gonna say what he's what do you mean? Nobody cares about checking your junk or his junk or any of it. What? What are you even talking about now?
+
+[15:10] Oh, is this not the question where you said speculum? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, what does this have to do with with uh uh uh a dude's junk? I don't understand the relation here. The only because I can't be like, well, it's not gross, like the word is not gross, it's just inappropriate, and I can't like shout back with some equivalent for him.
+
+[15:32] What about like uh proctologists or holding the holding the sack and cough, that sort of thing? I guess well, I it's not intrusive. No, you ever had someone grab your your sack and make you cough? That doesn't sounds so bad. It doesn't sound so bad.
+
+[15:48] Okay. Uh all right. We will ignore this section of the of the and go back to the question. I'm like, yeah, I'm just like, how long of a section does Pro Tools let me bleep? Okay, it'd be 30 seconds?
+
+[16:01] Not clear. I mean, it's not live anyway, so it's like the It's also part of being a human. It's not like, you know. No, the question is just about the word moist. The question is whether moist is a reasonable word.
+
+[16:12] That's what we're talking about. Moist is fine. Moist is fine. Anyway, so uh back to a separate thing about bleeping. Have you seen the the uh the new episodes or relatively new episodes of uh narco narcos Mexico?
+
+[16:25] In Narcos Mexico, there are actual Mexican government officials that they name and they instead of naming the real people like they do for like El Chapo and like uh you know, you know, uh Felix Sanhal Gallardo, all these people, they just say them on the TV and then bleep them, which is kind of funny. Anyway, uh that's neither here nor there. All right. That is it's neither here nor there. Anyway, uh Mark from Sonny Cam Loofs.
+
+[16:51] I was happy when you answered so happy when you answered my question on air. I felt like John Candy's character in Splash when he got his letter published in Penthouse. And by the way, I was having this discussion with a bunch of people earlier. Can you imagine there was a time in my lifetime where your only access to that sort of thing was to go purchase a magazine? How crazy is that?
+
+[17:11] Oh, on to the question. It was it was memorable. He really appreciated your participation in the conversation, the sauce. Going a little cam loopy here, locked in the house. Okay.
+
+[17:29] Uh I can't find enduja in this bucolic uh backwater. Stas, am I pronouncing that right, by the way. What? Is my induja? Yeah.
+
+[17:38] Induya? That's how you pronounce it? Yeah. Which? Ja or ya?
+
+[17:43] Ya ja, ya ja, ya ja. The way the cat said it. What? The way cat said it. Yah.
+
+[17:44] Induya. So let's just for what we're talking about. So this is an extremely high fat quote unquote sausage. It's really more of a spreadable sausage. It's kind of like it's a lie to say it has the texture of like a liverwurst because it like is more kind of grainy spready, but it's got a lot of fat in it.
+
+[18:10] It's it's roughly 50-50 fat and and uh meat, and not like hyper-lean meat either. And then a boat ton of spicy pepper, right? So that's what we're talking about uh for uh induya. It became you know very popular. The first one that I had in the US was made by Chris Costantino years ago uh at uh Encanto and his uh at his uh Celumeria.
+
+[18:33] Uh became fairly popular, fairly easy to get now in New York, but still relatively a niche product. I believe it's Calabrian. Anyway, uh I can't find uh Mark writes in I can't find Enduya in this bucolic backwater. I was wondering if Filipino Longanisa could be a substitute. The stuff I can find locally, apparently the Longanisa uh has aspergillus listed on the ingredients.
+
+[18:54] Thanks for your time. Love the show. Regards, Mark. So the aspergillus is just uh lactic acid uh bacteria, so that's like bactoferm. So you need um you're gonna uh all of these sausages are are gonna be somewhat fermented to drop the pH down.
+
+[19:10] So whether they add bacterm or whether they add aspergillus, and this goes for the Longanisa or for the Enduya, it's gonna have its pH dropped with with that. So I don't think that whether or not it has aspergillus is uh a measure of anything listed. It's interesting to list it on the menu because I mean I'm sorry, on the ingredients, because I didn't know that you had the list bacto firm on the ingredients. Anyway, um I don't Philip the Longanese is not gonna be an accurate substitute. Every recipe I looked at, every image I saw of the Filipino stuff is not spreadable, so it's not in due equivalent, more uh garlicky, less red peppery, not spreadable, lower fat ratio.
+
+[19:44] So I'm gonna go ahead and say no, not a substitute. What do you guys think? Uh I have no experience with this. Yeah. I got nothing.
+
+[19:53] Yeah. All right. Stasie. Stash is just a good one. Good job, Dave.
+
+[19:58] You did a good jam. You did a good jam. Why do you think she wouldn't be on Zappos now if she would be on Zappos while sitting right next to you? Not on Zappos. Hey, not on the Hey, hey.
+
+[20:13] But like uh anyway, we had some Twitter, we had some Twitter back and forth with some people after I said that if Nastasia pays attention, I'll be I'll be on time. I am paying attention. We've had it on kind of both sides, I've had it on both sides. I've had Twitter interactions on both sides of this issue. So we can talk about that later.
+
+[20:31] Cold Mike writes in about hot sauce. Hi Nastasia and Dave, a longtime listener, have a two-part question about hot sauce production. Nastasi's like, of course it's a two-part question. Uh I've been making and bottling hot sauce out of my restaurant, Magic Bird Fried Chicken, for the last year. I'm now at a point of setting up a production space just to keep up with the demand of the sauce.
+
+[20:50] Especially now, man. You know what? It's like, I wonder, we have so much. So yesterday when we went into I'll get I'm gonna get to your question. I'm gonna give you your time, Cold Mike.
+
+[20:59] But like we went into the bar yesterday and we had all of this fruit, and we're like, yo, we're not gonna open up. So we just juiced it all. I I have and we're gonna have to turn it all to cordial. I'm gonna have to take all of that lime juice that we were gonna shake and all that lemon juice we're gonna shake and turn it to cordial. Yeah, but who wants to buy, like, how much can I sell a bottle of cordral for?
+
+[21:18] Ask our rabbit listeners. I mean, okay. How much would you buy a bottle of cordial? Well, I mean, it's the let's be honest, it's the bar's stuff. I'm not gonna.
+
+[21:31] Yes, yes, yes, they'll make money there. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, whatever. Okay. As long as you brand it as coronavirus cordial, who wouldn't want to purchase that?
+
+[21:40] Oh, yeah. COVID acid ingesting COVIDCordial.com. Yeah, like everybody everybody wants that. The people are already logging in. I can see it.
+
+[21:47] By the way, the word of the week, clearly, the word of the week is foamite. You guys familiar with foamites? No. Really? You've made it through this whole so far Megilla, and you don't know the word foamite.
+
+[22:01] Oh my god. This is for anyone that doesn't know this word yet. This is the word of the week. F-O-M-I-T-E, fomite. And it is any surface that can sustain and transmit a virus or bacteria after it has left the host.
+
+[22:15] So for instance, elevator button, foamite, cardboard box, foamite. And the new studies that are coming out say that this sweet, sweet COVID can live for a long time on uh, you know, in a foamite situation on things like cardboard. So here's the thing like we're all going out and we're having our fresh direct, which I now call foamite direct, and the people who are doing that are all delivering this stuff. They're not, they're not gloved up, they're not masked up, and they're just foamiting all over all the stuff. So the good news is is that anyone in a warehouse that's touching your stuff and delivering it, right?
+
+[22:49] Is giving you the sweet, sweet foamite. Now, they haven't proven that there is too much transmission via foamites, but they have shown that the virus is uh viable on surfaces like cardboard and stainless for like days. So that's good news, right? Anyway. Yeah, this is making me feel great.
+
+[23:08] Foamite. Anyway, so like every time I walk around, I've been calling, I've been calling Dax a foamite. I've been calling my dog a foamite. My dog like picks up food off the ground outside, and I'm like, foamite! Because like, you know, it used to be my dog would pick up aluminum foil on the street and you would grab its its snout and try to rip, you know, prize his jaws apart and shake the aluminum foil out so that he doesn't swallow it and get you know gastric blockage.
+
+[23:34] Yes, he ate raisinettes off the ground once we thought he was gonna die. Did you know uh since you have a dog six hundred dollars? Yes, uh, we paid six hundred dollars to uh have the dog monitor for kidney failure. Grapes and raisins can kill a dog. Did you guys know this?
+
+[23:48] I did not know that. I didn't know that about grapes. Kidney failure, yeah. Yeah, weird. Like even a couple.
+
+[23:53] Good to know. Yeah. And and there's no way to know. What? Even a what?
+
+[23:57] Even a couple, even a couple grapes or raisins can take a dog down. And they haven't figured out why. They haven't figured out like some sort of genetic test to figure out whether your dog is gonna have that problem. Anyway, back to this hot sauce question. I've been making a bottling hot sauce out of Magic Bird Fried Kitchen for the last year.
+
+[24:11] I'm now at the point of setting up production space to keep up with the demand. My first question is what would be the best method to strain the cooked mash? Currently, I blend the cooked mash in a Vitamix and then pass it through a fine mesh chinois, but in the new space, we'll be cooking 75 liter batches and tilting kettles and blending them with a heavy-duty immersion blender. I am unsure of what the best way of straining that amount of sauce would be. Here's what I would do.
+
+[24:34] Uh so superbag material is nylon straining cloth. And if you go on Alibaba, uh Stas, is uh, are the Chinese factories back online yet? Yeah. All right, so you can go back on Alibaba, find this stuff. You need a like a mesh, uh, nylon mesh straining cloth.
+
+[24:51] And we use the same material at the bar that we use um that is used in make making actual super bags, which are the strainer bags. So then you make these big uh you don't even have to make a bag, you can just lay the cloth. It comes in like three foot or four foot wide, I think even taller, actually, maybe like four and a half foot wide um pieces. You lay it and then you just pour it the equivalent in into a giant colander. And if you really want to do it right, you then uh get yourself like we have, but my mine only does like I think 30 liters at a time, um, a like hydraulic press.
+
+[25:24] Go to Harbor Freight and get yourself like a uh a 20 uh ton hydraulic press and then just get some big plates made out of uh something that's food grade that won't bend, like for instance, uh Delrin or some kind of plastic, and make it fit inside of a large metal colander, put that on top of a Delrin uh piece so that it can drain properly, and just squeeze the ever-loving hell out of it in in one of these bags. Now I will warn you you should use like a triple double or triple layer of this nylon because once you really bear down on the press, you will uh burst the bag somewhat. And you need to also have the clearance between the colander and the and the pressing foot be just right. And also, I don't know if a regular colander will burst. I use I made my own kind of uh cider press out of Delrin.
+
+[26:12] You could just buy a cider press and then convert it to use a 20-ton uh press to do it if you want, but I think that's gonna give you the driest possible situation is uh is uh like a like a super bag slash paint strain or nylon in in a in some sort of a hydraulic press situation for that kind of quantity. What do you guys think? Good job. Yeah, good job. I did a good job.
+
+[26:34] I can't see any I look, people like normally, like I'm bad anyway. So like when you're giving a talk, people are like, how'd the taco? I'm like, what do I know? I'm on the spectrum. I can't tell what people think.
+
+[26:43] And then like now that I'm like talking into like a computer with no video, I really I can't see anything except for Booker coming up behind me and eating Cheerios. That's the only thing I can see. You know what I mean? So like I have no idea how this is going. Anyway.
+
+[26:59] There's been nothing but meals because, like, you know, Booker's current teacher with his distance learning is quote unquote sick. And so, you know, he's now not even distance learning. You know what I mean? Anyway. Uh, part two of uh Cold Mike's question is in order to keep the best consistency of my sauces, uh, are there any tools you would recommend?
+
+[27:19] Uh I'm already getting a pH meter, good to have, but I'm wondering if I should invest in a viscosimeter to uh to ensure all my batches have the same viscosity. I don't really know about that. That seems to me to be like, I don't really know, especially because I've never I've seen them, but I've never used one. And I mean, if you were gonna do very, very large batches, um, and you weren't gonna have be there to correct them by hand, I would say maybe, but I think if you're still having a little bit of a chef's touch in there, I don't really think that's necessary. But you say, should you getting a a bricks meter, i.e., or a fractometer to make sure the sugar content remains c uh constant from batch to batch.
+
+[27:58] Yes, you should definitely get one of those because uh you're gonna want to definitely correct for that. But you should do it of the mash if you can, but or get the bricks or the peppers before you add the salt because salt, depending on the uh percentage you add, is gonna radically kind of affect the um the bricks. Anyway, um thanks for taking the time to read this, and I will send some bottles of hot sauce once production starts in the summer cold mic. Sounds great. I'm excited for the hot sauce.
+
+[28:24] Yeah, I love a hot sauce. Wait, I have a thought, I have a thought on viscosimeters. Um my dad makes syrup. He makes cane syrup, and he did start using a viscosimeter, like a pretty low-tech one, but just as like a safety net. He still eyeballs it uh for the thickness, but he says that it's a nice tool to have.
+
+[28:42] Wait, what do you call me? Anyway, but he didn't he didn't he doesn't just go by bricks, he actually does a bricks and a viscosimeter. Uh I would have to follow up on that, but I do know that he checks the viscosity of the is there because part of the problem is um if he's gonna thicken this sauce with, let's say Xanthan, right? Xanthan has a very specific like shear thinning capability, so your stationary viscosity is gonna be much different from your lot of a lot of these hot sauces are thickened with Xanthan. So it's like I think a lot's gonna depend.
+
+[29:15] I mean, syrup is good because it's a relatively um like stable viscosity curve because it's not it's its viscosity isn't dependent upon long chain molecules like hydrocolloids. Uh I forget the name of the one that we looked at getting once, but yeah, but Kat, do you have some sort of ability to put into something that uh maybe Cold Mike could look at of the one that your dad uses? Yeah, I'll ask him what it is. Alright, cool. Uh actually, can we go to break right now?
+
+[29:43] And then uh we'll go to break. We're right back with cooking issues, COVID style. This episode is brought to you by Bend a Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Bend a table is founded by Ben Simon, a longtime food lover, advocate, and experimenter. Ben goes around the country finding the stuff that you would buy if you were vacationing somewhere cool like Charleston or California, and he buys it for you and sends it to you in a box.
+
+[30:14] Bend a Table has three different subscription plans. One, pantry essentials, incredible dry staples each month. Rancho Gordo beans, Geechee Boy grits, and community grain pastas. All excellent, by the way. Global Delicacies is another choice, and it's a way to explore the cuisine of different countries and cultures.
+
+[30:31] Delicacy boxes might include razor clams from Spain, tinned, obviously. Wheat Le Coche from Mexico, or grilled artichokes and oil from Italy. Bend a table includes both the Pantry Essential and the Global Delicacy Plan. By purchasing any subscription, you'll help sustainable, well-produced ingredients and small producers stay alive in today's big business environment. Ben is sending uh Nastasia and I some boxes in the next couple of weeks, and so when we get them, we'll open them up and we'll tell you what we think.
+
+[30:55] Start your monthly subscription at Benditable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. Use the discount code H R N to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of H R N's programming. Alright, so you can come back whatever. Okay.
+
+[31:14] Wait, you mean like right away? Like right now. Okay. Like we're coming back. Exactly.
+
+[31:20] And we're back. Okay, so uh we have some questions here. Uh so Zhuao. I hope I'm pronouncing your name right. Zhwao.
+
+[31:27] Right? J O with an N J O A with an Nya O. How would you pronounce that, Kat, since you're the pronunciation master today? Say it again. J Oh O.
+
+[31:38] A with uh with an Enya over the top. O. Zwau. Zhao. Zhao.
+
+[31:43] I don't know. Wow, Zhao. Isn't that you mean? You're supposed to know this, Kat. You're the person.
+
+[31:49] Anyway. I'm having a hard time visualizing that. Uh you don't know what. Okay, okay. Longtime listener, first time emailer, creepy dude that worked at Blanca and most Tuesdays.
+
+[31:58] Tried to get your attention, and a potential nickname failed. You couldn't have been that creepy. If Nastasia didn't give you a nickname, you could not have been that creepy. Am I right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[32:08] I mean, Nastasia gives plenty of people nicknames. Wait, do we all have nicknames? Do I have a nickname? Nastasia. I think he's talking about the people that work at Roberto's.
+
+[32:18] Yeah, I got a big thing. Well, he's he's a blanket. I realize that if you're frequently nicknaming everyone around you. No, you don't have one. All right.
+
+[32:26] Remember Satan's little helper? Yes. Remember him that? He looked like a cross between the Hitler youth and Santa's Elf. And he would like go around.
+
+[32:40] I don't know which one that is. I know who Freddie Mercury is, but I don't know which one that is. Come on, man. Stas. You remember who I'm talking about, right?
+
+[32:49] He might have been before my time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[32:52] Satan's little helper. Anyway. I'm also a French culinary institute slash ICC farm to table graduate and uh Senor Dave Arnold's antics endeavors are mythical. I sometimes work at the school's cookery events, and every time something explodes, Dave is mentioned. Have I mentioned uh on the air before the time when uh the pastry chef there, Jurgen, I think it was Jurgen David, is there, and we used to have these uh these ice cream machines, these Taylor ice cream machines.
+
+[33:18] So I think we had a Carpeggiani, like a like a LB 100, but we also had the the Taylor tabletop air-cooled uh you know batch machines. And uh Sam Mason, ice cream, you know, magnate Sam Mason from Oddfellow, uh was like, yo, can we carbonate ice cream? And I'm like, Sam, uh, you know, no, I don't think no, we can't because too much of the stuff is frozen, uh, and so there's not enough water base left. So it's not like a slushy machine where you know, over a third of the liquid is still liquid, and we can carbonate that. I was like, and plus those machines are meant to hold pressure, it's just not gonna work.
+
+[33:53] He's like, but can you do it? Can you do it? I'm like, you know what? Come to the school, we'll give it a shot. So he comes to school, and I try to plug all of the holes in the tailor up and just put like a light, like a light CO2 pressure into that thing while I was spinning.
+
+[34:08] Let's just say it took many days to get all the ice cream base off of all of the surfaces of that kitchen, and I was never forgiven ever in the pastry department for that. So the other time, Stas, do you do you remember the time we were trying to heat rocks in the kitchen? And I was like, this was upstairs on the fourth floor because we were working on hot stones, so like Korean stone bowls, I was working on hot stones. This is when we were developing the red hot poker, right? And so I was like, Well, what if we tried to heat just, you know, we tried to heat stones and we threw the stones in, you know, like the way that they do hot stones out of a fire for like, you know, like sauces and like boiling things in the old days.
+
+[34:45] The oldest form of boiling people, you get a leather, you get a leather container or a wooden container, you take a hot rock out of the fire, you throw it into the container, you boil. So I knew in the back of my head, I was like, look, a lot of rocks contain water in them, right? And if you got a rock that contains water and you heat the heck out of it, sucker might explode. So I was like, well, there's no one here. I'm just gonna put a bunch of rocks on this uh burner, turn it on, and walk away and see what happens.
+
+[35:14] And I didn't know that again, pastry, pastry chef was coming in to do some prep work, and Nastasi and I had gone down to our yeah, we had gone down to our trash hole because Nastasi and I worked in a trash room. Like uh, like literally we worked in a trash closet. Yeah. Uh and we were happy to have it. Uh and so we're like, boom!
+
+[35:39] And then like you like we ran downstairs, and oh my god, the look, the look on that chef's face, she was not pleased with us, like rock shards everywhere. Ever so uh come by, and then there was the time that like I think I told this one there was a time we were carbonating and I needed to carbonate something, and for some reason the school had uh uh what's it called? They had uh made a deal with Fiji water, and like I've never been a fan of shipping water thousands of miles, it makes no damn sense to me at all. But like, especially a water with no taste, right? And no offense to Fiji, I guess we're not gonna sponsor this, but like Fiji water is just water in a square bottle, right?
+
+[36:16] The other terrible thing about square bottles is they cannot take pressure. And so Nastasi, you know how impatient I get. Yeah, yeah. So like I'm I'm there, I'm down in the amphitheater. I'm like, I need a carbo bottle, nothing.
+
+[36:29] I need a carbo bottle, nothing. I need a carbo bottle, nothing. So I just dump a Fiji out. I'm like, F it. Boo.
+
+[36:36] It was coffee. I put the coffee in, I carb it, boom, boom. Just like caught like a line of coffee around the entire back of the amphitheater was awesome. It's the best. So anyway, I was sounds great.
+
+[36:47] Oh, it was great. It was great. I loved it. But you know, look, I would say a good 80% of the time, my crap on it, let's just get it done, actually does get it done. Right?
+
+[36:58] What do you think, Stash? Oh, I'd say 75%. Yeah, which I think is fine. It's close. Yeah, I mean fine.
+
+[37:05] So you know, Nastasi and I especially hate it when people sit around talking about what they could do and then doing nothing instead of just doing something and then feel like they're not. Twelve hour 12 straight hours to mean in fact. Yeah, just because and people are like, oh, but you could do this, or you could do that, or I could sit around talking about going and getting these things until I'm dead. I could just go. You know what I mean?
+
+[37:26] It's just like, even if it's not the best, do something. Doing something is almost always better than doing nothing. As long as you must as long as you must do something, do something, right? Or you know what makes me upset about this whole have to stay in thing? What's that?
+
+[37:40] Is that everybody's complaining about having to stay in? But before this, all people wanted to do was stay in and watch Netflix and watch their shows. So they're getting exactly what they wanted. I think this is you, Nastasia. You you hate those people, and so now you have some sort of thing against them because you don't have a Netflix account.
+
+[37:57] No, no, I have all the accounts, I just don't waste time doing that. But like people are like, man, I wish I could. So you just waste money paying for those accounts? What's going on here? Yeah.
+
+[38:06] There's like a comedy special like that I have to see, I'll watch it. But I probably turn those apps on like once every two months, once every three months. I was ready. I was ready to get all the cooking issues listeners together to fundraise for you to have like a Hulu account. No, no, no.
+
+[38:22] That's not the money. Hulu's good. Wait, Nasty. That they're not coming back for like yeah, yeah, that's the worst part of the who knows. That's the worst part.
+
+[38:33] That's the worst part. I mean, in terms of my entertainment, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, people dying, like everyone loses in the world. In terms of my entertainment, I don't watch garbage like TV on whatever people watch.
+
+[38:46] Yeah. So Nastasia really really appreciates everyone else's entertainment tastes. People should be so they want they're fucking shows. Never. You can't have SNL without the audience.
+
+[39:06] Won't be the same. Exactly. That's what I said. Yeah, what are you gonna do? Put a canned laugh track on it?
+
+[39:12] Not gonna do that. Uh okay. So back to uh uh Joah's question. Uh the actual question: why are Paco Jets so expensive? What is up with that?
+
+[39:23] Is a uh better or cheaper option in BDX's future? Okay. Here's the thing. Uh we had initially looked into doing something uh maybe the reason they're expensive is because they're made, they they used to be expensive because they had a patent on them and only one person could make them. That the original patent has since run out.
+
+[39:43] And you can find the patent uh online. The pat the Paco jets are also um almost completely like the the gearing and the belts and all of that are relatively complicated because instead of um instead of doing the feed rate with uh microprocessor, it's all with gears and belts. So part of that's the expense. It's also made in Switzerland, and if you know how much people make in Switzerland, it's a lot. So like you have to pay like this Swiss person to make it.
+
+[40:09] And then also the euro, you know, uh, or the do they still they use euros in in Switzerland, right? They don't you do they use Swiss Franks? They're Franks. And the Swiss franc is probably doing well because no matter what happens, they'll take uh whatever your murder money is. The Swiss franc always does well.
+
+[40:22] People believe in the Swiss. Yeah, because you know, you you murder a bunch of people, you need some place to put your money, that's where you go, right? Where I put my murder money. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[40:29] Everyone, everyone on all sides needs a place to hide their murder money. Um so you have this the Swissness of it, and then you have uh mechanical parts. But the the fact of the matter is is that if you had to make one from scratch, uh if you were gonna make one in small units, like let's say I was gonna make one, Nastasia and I were gonna make one, it would probably cost the same if we were going to make it and try to be reasonable. Now, if someone like a Queasin art wanted to make one, then they would cheapen down the materials, it wouldn't be as robo, it would function kind of similarly. Uh, but they could probably get it done for I don't know what's 500 bucks, five, six hundred bucks.
+
+[41:11] But if you think about it, if Cuisinart is selling something for six hundred dollars, let's say Queas and Art, they don't really make anything that expensive, but if Cuisinart is selling something for six hundred dollars, it's they have to be able to make it in a factory for a quarter of that or less because they have their marketing money, their shipping money, the middle person, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you're saying that you have to get all the parts for that uh in at like 120, uh, 120, 130 dollars. And it's just I don't see having that robo a thing being manufactured right now for that amount of money. But there is no reason that the the it's like the V CRs. For those of you that remember what a VCR was, is like a video cassette recorder.
+
+[41:53] Like they were extremely expensive until they needed to make eight jillion of them, and then they were almost free. Even though the mechanics were difficult, it's just we're not in that um in that scale zone yet where it becomes reasonable to uh make. But what do you think? Good job. Tell me more, tell me more about this VCR.
+
+[42:12] Yeah, yes. So it used to be that uh, you know, there was a small gnome inside of your television. That's why they were so deep. And uh you would plug this box, and there was like a there was like a large, like uh it was shaped. Uh, how do I describe this in something that a modern person could understand?
+
+[42:28] Like a milkbone dog treat box, and you would stick it in, and then the gnome would like take a scroll out of it and then draw like three or four lines of video very quickly on the inside of the television with like uh with like a light pen. And that's how television used to work. So yeah. So if you if you television's like Netflix for old people, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[42:52] So it used to be like if you look at like a uh uh a movie like Robocop, and you can really see what 80s television is because they really do, even on their 35 millimeter, which obviously is like 35. Oh my god, it's such a low depth format, but they show TVs, uh TVs going. If people are a little bit VCRs also like uh the VHS tapes uh degrade a lot over time. So it's a little unfair to say taking your your mom and dad's VHS tapes and playing them now is what we used to watch, uh, because they have degraded quite significantly since the 80s and 90s, but it's um it was still pretty bad. It was like a couple hundred lines of resolution at most, like three, four hundred lines, real lines.
+
+[43:38] They said it was uh six eight. So a standard TV definition is six six hundred and eighty pixels by uh 400 six six uh wait six wait 480, 640, 480. I think 640, 480. If that was the resolution of your iPhone, you would hurl it out the window and like stomp on it and like scream how you were being deprived of anything, and yet that was the maximum resolution any of us had. And we were we were glad to have it.
+
+[43:59] Glad we loved it. Anyway. He's a boomer. Yeah, okay, douche. Please, please say you're a boomer.
+
+[44:18] Please say boomer. I'm gonna just put is it okay if in the show notes I put boomer? No. No, because we're the forgotten generation. Everyone forgets that we exist.
+
+[44:27] Our parents are boomers. 5050. I'm my first move. Nastasia's Nastasia's parents are boomers, and Nastasi and I, even though she is 10 years younger, we're in the same generation. I'll put generation X slash boomer.
+
+[44:40] I'm a millennial, Dave. No, you're not. You're not a millennial. According to the year, I am, but not by temperament. You're not a millennial.
+
+[44:52] I don't even think by year. Like my sister's a millennial. No, it's a big thing. Nastasia hates the weakness of boomers. What weakness do boomers have.
+
+[45:00] Boomers made all the money, did all the stuff. Like, what weakness do boomers have? Like, it's X that it's X that's weak. Like, we have nothing. We what do we do?
+
+[45:10] You know what I mean? You're the survivors. It's two boomers that are running for president right now. No Xers are running for anything anymore. We all got nuked.
+
+[45:20] Yeah. That's why it's X. It has no meaning. Why do you think they call us Gen X? It wasn't because there was a T, a U and a V and a W before us.
+
+[45:30] It's because we have nothing. We are X, useless, nothing, blank. Generation nothing. Is that really what? Yes.
+
+[45:38] Yeah. And then Y comes after X. And Z comes after Y. Yeah, it's just like, but but at the time, everyone was like, oh, the boomers, they had this, you know, everyone came back from the we had the greatest generation because they fought the war. And then when they came home, they had a lot of sex and they made the boomers, and man, the economy exploded and all this stuff happened.
+
+[45:58] And then they're like, what are you? What do you do? And we're like, we have sex equals death, and we're the first generation to be more conservative than our parents. Yay. Do you think that there's gonna be a baby boom due to everyone being shut down, holed up for the next whatever?
+
+[46:14] A mini boom? Yeah, that's what people are saying. Having a great time over here. To be honest, Nastasia, it takes two people to create a boom. Oh, no, no, no.
+
+[46:26] Nastasia's focused on self-generating. Yeah. She's cloning her kids. Yeah, if you imagine. If we're if we're supposed to say six feet from each other, that's like kind of the only way.
+
+[46:41] Gotta figure it out. Yeah, uh it's gotta, you know, yeah. I don't know whether those kind of fluids are fomites, but I assume that they are. Okay. Okay.
+
+[46:53] Blair writes in, hi, and hello from Poland. Firstly, can I give some obligatory praise and thank you to this podcast? Changed the course of my life a few years ago. Um honestly, I'm delighted to now have a good reason to write in with a question. Here it goes.
+
+[47:06] Uh I was working on espresso concentrate to be stored in individual ampules. What do you think about the word ampule, Nastasia? To me, it reminds me of cyanide, like I'm gonna get killed. Oh. Um, it's it's okay.
+
+[47:17] I like the I like the mouth fuel, mouthfeel of ampule. Ampulle, pule. Yeah. How many syllables is it? Uh huh.
+
+[47:25] Ampulle. Two, two, right? Amp yule? Or it's two, right? It's two, but with a high uh letter to syllable ratio.
+
+[47:34] It's a chewy word. It's a seriously chewy word. Ampule. Yeah. Uh and rehydrated with hot water.
+
+[47:41] Hopefully with as little flavor degradation as possible when compared to the original product. So far, so far I'm pouring the shot directly onto a metal plate cooled by a recirculating chiller. Uh passing uh through a thick filter paper, vacuum sealing freezing, then concentrating through the melting process yields and it yields not an unpleasant result, although the aromatics are diminished and bitter planty flavors are emphasized. I've been working on the assumption that preventing the overextraction of residual solids and oxidation is the key. I'm planning on giving bentonite a try for a bit of fining.
+
+[48:10] Perhaps the cooking issues collective encyclopedia could suggest some further avenues for exploration as well as concentrating through melting. I'm assuming you mean freeze thaw. Um the the best way when quality is paramount. Uh love you guys, Blair. All right, here's what I'm gonna say about this.
+
+[48:23] I would love the chat room once it exists again live to weigh in on this. However, uh I'm gonna go ahead and say that I I don't I think oxidation is a thing. Also, um autolysis. So like the the compounds that are in uh espresso are changing that the minute they're made, and you kind of can't stop that from uh changing. Uh Ily, if you get the chemistry of quality, which is uh Ely's book, they've done a lot of research, and if you look on the online, go to do a search like on Elsevier or Google Google Scholar, and then uh go to um uh Sci Hub and you you can look it up.
+
+[48:59] People have done a lot of work on the change in the organoleptic qualities of espresso based on, for instance, your chill rate. So I had always thought that rapid chilling was was good, but the ILI people seem to think that rapid chilling is not the best. So this is all stuff that can be uh tweaked through. But I would say that the solids that are coming out of the shot are pretty much as extracted as they're going to be. And I wouldn't worry that's the problem.
+
+[49:23] I think you're losing a lot through the filter paper, including a lot of the oils and things, um, if you're kind of worried or worried about that. I also don't have a lot of experience with freeze concentration other than with alcohol, and I'm assuming you're gonna lose uh a lot, although there are a lot of people working with freeze concentration now, so I could be wrong. I would say invest, find someone who owns one and do some freeze drying. So freeze drying is amazing. So then you just take you you you lay it out thin, you freeze dry it, it'll turn to a powder, it'll reconstitute pretty well.
+
+[49:54] And I'm gonna say that freeze drying is your best opportunity. And because freeze drying is done in a high vacuum, uh there's not going to be a lot of oxidation because there's not a lot of oxygen uh uh and the water is immobilized fairly quickly. So if there was a problem with continued uh extraction, I don't think it would be a continuing problem. Um freeze drying is is that obviously you are sucking uh, you know, you're losing a lot of volatiles because you're, you know, in a sense uh sublimating all the stuff off, but you're not losing as much as you would think, and I don't really understand why. I would not try bentonite.
+
+[50:29] I mean, try it. I I take that back. Try it. And then you can see how much flavor bentonite strips out. Bentonite is a bentonite's a mean son of a gun in terms of stripping flavor.
+
+[50:38] It's good at finding things, but it's very high stripping in terms of flavor. But give it a shot, let us know how it works. Uh Chris Wright writes in on olives. Hey everyone. Uh, this is on the chat.
+
+[50:47] Um, wondering if olive curing techniques can be applied to other fruits slash vegetables. Can you think of an agricultural product local to the Northeast? I'm in Pennsylvania that might be well suited for this. Um, I mean, the thing about curing olives, I mean, you could obviously uh oil cure uh things or salt cure things for sure, but the specific thing about an olive that is important is that it is intensely bitter, and so most of the curing processes in olives are about mitigating that bitterness. So I don't know that you're gonna, other than just like uh, you know, if you figure out some way to like salt, dehydrate, and then store something, sure, but I don't think you're gonna have the meeting or you're not doing it for the same reason in another vegetable as you are in an olive.
+
+[51:28] But you know, when the chat room people hear this, maybe they have some suggestions and they can come back on and give it to us for the next show. Uh Sam writes in about Sous Vide. I'm Sam from New Zealand. Uh I'm up to like podcast 370 at the moment. What are we up to now, Matt?
+
+[51:40] What do we what have we done? Oh god, uh, I know we're nearing 400. Oh my goodness. Uh, I think I must hate myself or just be the biggest beta male that exists. How's that, Sas?
+
+[51:50] You know, I hate that. Yeah. Uh my question is around proper sous-vide slash low temp technique. My problem has begun as a steak problem. My usual process is to dry brine.
+
+[52:00] By the way, Sam, dry brining. Where did this word come from? It's salting. Salting. Dry brine.
+
+[52:10] Everyone says this now, dry brining. You mean you mean you salted it? You salted it. Anyway. So my usual process is to dry brine between an hour and one day with between half a percent and one percent salt.
+
+[52:23] I'm guessing by weight. Then uh sous eating at 55 degrees uh Celsius for one to two hours. So 55 uh is like 100 and what is it, 130? Someone can look that up for me. I can't right now.
+
+[52:34] Then uh searing it off. Uh, this is a good steak, but I've noticed the hammy cure texture you've spoken about in the past. Uh I've also experienced this with debone lamb leg, which I deboned salted with uh uh three quarters of a percent salt, re-rolled and left in the fridge for 24 hours. Yeah, you're gonna cure that sucker up there. I then roasted this to an internal temp of 71 degrees Celsius uh to serve to my red phobic parents.
+
+[52:54] You should just blindfold them. Cook it to the right temperature and then blindfold them. Don't you think that's a better solution? Uh yeah, every dish should be uh uh served with a side of lying. No, you're not lying.
+
+[53:08] You're not saying what it is, it's just you're blindfolding them. You're like, here, have some land. It's cooked. All true. Or what if they wore, I wonder if you wore pink glasses, what people's reaction to pink meat would be if you wore pink glasses.
+
+[53:20] This would be an interesting test to force people to wear rose-colored glasses while they eat meats cooked at different things and see what their enjoyment is versus not. Wouldn't that be interesting? I I would do it. Because my get my well, you don't eat meat though, but you would for size. I know, that's why I'm a test subject.
+
+[53:40] Take one for the team. All right. Uh oh god, what's happening? What why is the f what what's going on over there, Matt? You're exploding over here.
+
+[53:47] That's not me. It's me. It's our 130, but I guess we're going. Okay. Well, no, we should, we we gotta get off.
+
+[53:54] I gotta finish this question. All right, go. All right. This was good, soft, salted throughout, but still had that texture, that hammy texture near the center of the meat. I missed the more traditional grain structure of the not dry brine meat, but don't want to give up the flavor and softness of a dry brine product.
+
+[54:08] Okay, listen. You gotta you got a bunch of different issues going on here. Don't salt the long cooked meat beforehand. Don't do it. On something that you want to have a steak texture on, right?
+
+[54:18] Don't salt it beforehand. Here's what you do. After you cook it, if you cook it for a long time, it's gonna get soft anyway. It just won't be hammy and firm if you don't salt it beforehand. Before you serve it, slice it thin and then salt the bejesus uh uh afterwards.
+
+[54:32] Or if you only salt it an hour, if you're gonna cook it only for a couple of hours, like a steak, you can salt, salt it, put it in the bag, cook it, and serve it relatively quickly. Also, if you're cooking to 55, uh after the internal reaches the temperature, depending on the thickness of your steak, drop the temperature down to like 52 to let it ride for a while so you don't get that because firmness will increase over time, even at 55. Uh so anyway, and so next week we'll deal with Eddie Donnell and his carbon carbonation question because I'm being told that we're we're leaving now. But leave it. I will say this, Eddie.
+
+[55:06] Cooling is still critical. Even the person whose video you sent me says so. Take a look at their comments, and we'll talk about it again next week. Oh, stay safe. What?
+
+[55:16] We should ask if they would like to see video of us doing this. We don't have the capability. I mean, I'm sure some program has a capability. Also, Kat was supposed to ask about all the stuff we cook from Ben's box. I cooked all this stuff.
+
+[55:27] I cooked the cooked the grits. We'll do that, we'll do that on a future time. I made shrimp and grits. I made delicious shrimp and grits. I cooked the rancho gordo beans, they were delicious.
+
+[55:39] You know, I've been cooking, I've been cooking up a storm with these. These are all things people need to do inside now that they're trapped inside. Beans. Darn it. We'll talk about it next week.
+
+[55:50] Next week. Next week. All right, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[56:04] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[56:22] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[56:43] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bend to table.com. That's B E N T O T A B L E dot com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off and HRN gets ten dollars. Nastasia, you do it.
+
+[0:26] And Nastasia, from that moment on, normally has stopped listening. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live somewhere from my house, the lower east side. Nastasia, where are you? Are you uh where are you?
+
+[0:39] Are you in you in Connecticut or you in New York? I'm in Hell's Kitchen. You're what uh in Hell's Kitchen, and we got uh we got Matt. Where are you? You're in like something like Park Slope or something?
+
+[0:48] Still still in Rhode Island. Oh, Rhode Island, Rhode Island, Rhode Island, yeah. Yeah. Rhode Island and Providence Plantations! Uh what's the full name of your uh state there?
+
+[1:00] It's not my state, so I just know that it has a very long name. I do not remember. It's the along what you just said. It's the smallest state with the largest the longest name. It's like one of those whereas Delaware, I like to refer to it as the not even state, because it's not even the smallest.
+
+[1:19] It's not even Rhode Island. It's just like hi, we're the four you we're the forty-ninth state by size, but they have no tax, so they have that. They should cleave they should cleave off a portion of it to you know get ahead of us. What, did Delaware? You think Delaware should get rid of some of the Yeah.
+
+[1:38] I should get rid of some how there's gotta be some pieces of Delaware that don't matter. Cut 'em off. Get smaller. Do you know I've never spent an evening in Delaware? I've never spent an e Nastasia.
+
+[1:52] Have you ever spent an evening in Delaware? No. No, I haven't. Math, Matthew, you've spent in have you spent any of the things that I've done. I've been I don't think so.
+
+[1:59] I've been to the Dogfish Head Brewery in Delaware while driving through, but it's kind of a drive-thru state, you know. Well, I mean, I'm sure it's nice, don't it border the Chesapeake there? Isn't there like nice river stuff there? Isn't there a nice like what? Yeah.
+
+[2:17] I just remembered I spent three days on a golf course in Delaware because that's where somebody chose to do their wedding. Oh. Yeah. How was that? Don't recommend that.
+
+[2:27] Yeah, don't do that. No. You're not a you're not a golfer? Well, driving the golf carts was great. I was all about that.
+
+[2:36] And they're the only mode of the main mode of transportation. But other than that. Yeah, I do like golf carts. So uh my sister-in-law, Miley Carpenter, who runs the is the Food Network magazine. She launched and runs the Food Network magazine.
+
+[2:49] I had a long illustrious career in food journalism prior to that. And uh, you know, my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrein, well-known chef and now currently donut magnate. They are a they're a firm believer in the golf cart. They love a golf cart. Yeah, I mean, it was it was especially a novelty for Kate because she, my wife, does not know how to drive, is not licensed to drive.
+
+[3:15] So she got to just tool around. Did you just do the did you just do the Borat my wife? You did. You did the Borat. My wife.
+
+[3:22] God. I I was raised on that. I don't I don't even know how to say my wife without without Bore adding it. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:29] You know, like uh Borat, I don't want to offend anyone out there. I hate that movie. I think that I think that look, Sasha Baron Cohen, I think he's like an extremely talented. My Dax, my son Dax just ran into the room saying that I'm a bad person because he you can see he they can hear you, you just can't hear them. You think Borat's the greatest movie ever made.
+
+[3:50] Yeah. Right? Here, Dax, come on, you come over here so they can hear you. You think that Borat's the greatest movie ever, right? I mean, it's funny, but it's some messed up stuff, so it's mean spirited.
+
+[3:59] See, I think someone your age, it's like, you know, a teenager doesn't understand the mean spirited nature of that program. It the humor is entirely mean spirited. That's why I don't like it. Like, it he's mean spirited towards other people. If he was just being mean spirited towards himself and his friends, I mean, that's one thing.
+
+[4:16] You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true, but you know, that's just my that's just my my take on it. Uh what do you think, Stasi? You like that stuff? I don't really remember it that well.
+
+[4:26] Um I thought it was okay. I mean, yeah, it's mean spirited, but it still made me laugh a lot. Dax is like, it was mean spirited but made me laugh a lot. Like, that's a good uh anyway. I have never I've definitely never seen the actual movie.
+
+[4:40] I've seen what was it, the LG show that was where the character came up, right? Uh well, yeah, he just does, you know, whatever. Whatever. Like I say, I think he's very talented. I think that stuff's mean-spirited.
+
+[4:52] Whatever. It is what it is. Uh, so what you know, Nastasia, you should get yourself a golf cart. You can get him real cheap. I'm not really spending money right now, so I know no one is.
+
+[5:03] We're locked, we're locked in rooms. We don't have any stuff. But I'm saying, you can go. But like this, this seems like the kind of thing you would go. You own a car, just trade it for a golf cart.
+
+[5:11] Imagine if you drove a golf cart on I 95. Listen, yeah, you you'd get there quicker. You'd get if you drove from your house on now, it's not legal, but you definitely get there quicker. You go right along the right along the uh the shoulder. For those of you that don't know, the corridor between where Nastasia's place is plays his in connecticut and New York City is just I mean, Nastasia comes from LA, so she's used to bad traffic, but like that is like the worst chunk of road in in a hundred mile radius from here, probably I-95, right?
+
+[5:43] I mean it's just garbage all the time. Garbage. Yeah, but now it only takes me 42 minutes door to door because there's nobody on the road. Oh, everyone just staying home, huh? Yeah.
+
+[5:53] Speaking of, this is the I did two hours and fifty-eight minutes from Newport to my apartment in Brooklyn the other day. That's a land speed record. Yeah. Do you like not worry about speeding? Are the cops out getting getting I have not left my house other than to walk my dogs in a week.
+
+[6:09] I'm on the second starting my second week of self-quarantine because I've I've felt sick, so I just haven't gone out, haven't gone shopping, haven't done any of that stuff. So I'm totally, you know, I'm totally disconnect. I've started to like disconnect myself from reality here at this point. So that's me. By the way, speaking of this, let's talk let's talk corona for a second.
+
+[6:30] Thanks everyone who's supported the uh the uh GoFundMe for the staff at uh existing conditions, by the way. Once that's done, that's gonna be split equally among all of the people that we had to um unfortunately lay off. Speaking of this, Nastasi, have you heard that uh Jose Andres uh is continuing to pay his staff in uh DC even though the restaurant shut down? That's awesome. I I wish we could I wish we could afford to do that.
+
+[6:55] Uh that's you know fantastic. I you know, we're gonna definitely need some uh help going forward. But uh I mean, we as an industry. Um, um here's something I thought of. Uh next time this happens, I'm gonna be so much better prepared in terms of my kind of disaster preparedness food situation.
+
+[7:17] Like back after 9 11, we started having what what we call like terror supplies at home. And then, but with something like this, you never know when you're gonna just have to be locked into your house for a couple weeks at a time. I would have planned much better. You know, Nastasi, you have a lot of pasta. Yeah.
+
+[7:35] So you're you're set for the one thing that I've stopped eating is what? Is meat. I stopped eating meat and chicken, yeah. Why? Yeah.
+
+[7:49] Because you don't have it? I just I've found it really gross, like, just really gross after like five days. What do you mean? And then just having like this raw animal. Like, I was just like, this is gross.
+
+[8:06] So, yeah, just not eating it. Huh. Hold on, hold on. I'm trying to I'm trying to try to put my head around this. So it's like the you're saying that the raw product is staying in your fridge too long, and so you're looking at it and you're like, that's gross.
+
+[8:19] You should freeze it. But then I have to thaw it, and then all right, let's let's talk about this. This is a good point. This is a good point. This is a good point.
+
+[8:28] Nastasia brings up a good point here. The tr the trick of this, and what I'm gonna do the next time around, or before the next time around, here's the issue. Let's say you go out, let's say you're gonna go full prepper, right? Let's say you're gonna go full Mormon prepper, and let's say you have a basement, because of course you do, and you have like a year's worth of food in 55 gallon drums, like you know, new nuclear Armageddon style in your basement. The issue with this is everything has a finite lifespan, right?
+
+[8:57] So the the what people do is you look on, you're like what canned goods can last for X number of years, blah, blah, blah. And then you end up with a bunch of canned and dry goods that are steadily turning to garbage in your pantry, right? Or in your fridge. Or you have a whole bunch of chicken, and since everyone else in your family got vaporized in the Armageddon, or if you're like Nastasia, you're just cooking for yourself anyway, then you you know, you have all of this stuff, and you don't want you can't thaw out an entire big block of it if it's only you're only eating that one piece of chicken that night, right? So, what to do?
+
+[9:31] First of all, invest in freezing individual portion controls. So as soon as you get the products that you get, take them down into individual portions. I know it's a little seems a little bit wasteful, but you're gonna be saving in the long run. Put them into quartz size or smaller quartz size uh ziploc bags, exclude the air using the water technique, which you can see on the cooking issues blog, if it still exists somewhere, on how to package uh it's also everyone else has it now. Uh you you put it, you get the air out of it, and then you freeze the individual packs.
+
+[10:03] Those individual packs can be thawed in uh running water in your sink in under 25 minutes. They're good to go. And now some of it can even be cooked from frozen and have it be uh passable. So uh so that's step step one right there with your frozen stuff, so that you're not staring as Nastasia had at a bunch of stuff. And then when you have that stuff there, you think you're gonna use it, you think people are gonna come over, they're not gonna come over because either you're quarantined or they've been, you know, already vaporized in a different kind of Armageddon.
+
+[10:35] So, anyway, so you have that. The second thing is, and this is what I'm gonna do the next time around, is I am going to buy uh my supply of food, and then every year I'm gonna make sure everything is good for two years minimum, and then every year I'm gonna donate all of it to a food pantry and buy it fresh. This way, I always have a year of uh shelf life left on my stuff. I'm not donating expired food to people, and yet I don't have to live off of my terror supplies on a normal basis. That's gonna be my plan going forward.
+
+[11:09] My terror slash pandemic supplies. So uh what I've run out of is because I live in a New York City apartment and I have extremely limited freezer space, is I have run out of vegetables. That's the main thing I've run out of is veg. But whatever. Yeah, that makes sense.
+
+[11:30] Yeah, yeah. Uh all right, should we do some questions? Yeah, um, and all of it, there are actually a couple in the chat that I didn't see until now. Uh Elvin had a small logistics question about existing conditions. In addition to the GoFundMe, are there any other good ways to directly help the bar and staff?
+
+[11:49] Uh he tried to find some kind of gift card page, but wasn't able to find one. Any thoughts? Don Lee is uh working on that. Um on the gift card aspect. So for right now, you know, the GoFundMe, which is gonna go directly to the staff that's laid off, and it's we're we're dividing it.
+
+[12:11] Um, I'm pretty sure we're just dividing it on an equal basis, so we're not trying to, you know, play favorites with that or anything like that. It's just gonna be divided up and handed to the staff that um was laid off, and you know, uh as for anything else, we haven't started delivery yet because we're still setting up the uh seamless stuff. I won't be able to personally help with delivery until minimum um Monday because I shouldn't be handing people food, right? Uh because I'm on self-quarantine. Uh so other than that, yeah, other than that, I don't know.
+
+[12:48] But uh stay tuned to the existing conditions. Uh stay tuned to the existing conditions, uh, Instagram, and you know, anything that we're doing is gonna go up on that. Um what else you got in the chat room there, Matt? Uh let's see. So bread baking physics question from Wally.
+
+[13:08] Uh please explain to me again how a pot of water at 99C on the bottom shelf in the preheated convection oven is different than injecting steam at the beginning of my bake. I'm planning to run a silicone tube from my pressure cooker vent to the oven, but why would that be a good idea or not? Thanks. First of all, anytime anyone says tube and I'm on earphones like this, I can only think of uh Senator what was his name, Stevens from Alaska talking about the internet being a series of it's a series of tubes. Series of tubes.
+
+[13:42] Series of tubes uh over which we're now uh we're now talking. Uh so here's the difference. Uh when you put a pan of water in the oven, you are um taking a big chunk of the thermal load. So if you were to measure uh well, I've only measured it in a toaster oven because it's the only thing I can adequately measure the heat, uh the uh energy input on, but the energy input into my brevel toaster oven uh with a full pan of water in it versus not is a lot lot higher. Uh so you're dumping a lot of the thermal energy in.
+
+[14:22] So uh and that's not necessarily that you wouldn't think alone is going to necessarily change you know the dynamics of what's going on in the oven, but if you're expecting there to be a big heat wallop other than the steam uh available to you to to do something like let's say heat up pizza stone or whatnot, you would be mistaken because in fact you're heating up that water, and that water then is probably keeping that pizza stone at a lower overall temperature than it would be uh otherwise. That's my guess. Now, whereas if you make the steam in a separate thing and then inject it, right? You're only injecting the steam, you're not really affecting the temperature of the uh or the I should say the dynamics of the oven that much. And even if you were to do what a lot of people do do, which is drip water in and vaporize it in the oven, that extra heat load is only there for the time where you're vaporizing it as opposed to being in there on a constant basis, right?
+
+[15:19] So you're spending all of this uh energy keeping this like big pot of water hot and vaporizing a lot of water, right? As opposed to just injecting the steam when you want it and then having the steam take away. So I guess that would be the difference. That's just my guess. That makes sense.
+
+[15:34] How are people? I'm having a hard time visualing this though. How is he gonna be injecting steam from the pressure cooker like on a consistent basis into his functioning oven? Well, what I've always wanted to do is run a water line like along the bottom of the oven, let's say, and then you just turn the water on from an outside reservoir when you want it, and that would vaporize the steam. Now you'd be using the oven energy, like I said before, but typically, like especially a gas oven has excess energy.
+
+[16:03] So you'd heat up the you'd heat up the stone or whatever else you're using, the the steel piece, then you'd inject water into a part of the oven that doesn't matter as much, the bottom, let's say, and then that you'd use the excess energy from that to vaporize the steam. The steam would go, and then uh you know you'd you'd have your your your thing. So I mean I assume that would be slightly different. Who is enjoying a delicious crunchy snack during the radio show? Oh my god, you can hear that?
+
+[16:30] Of course. I was I was trying to chew, I I thought there was no way. Alright, fine. Yeah. All right.
+
+[16:39] I have to say, Stas, I thought it was gonna be you. I thought it was gonna be you. So I was it was closed mouth. I'm two feet from the friggin' computer. I'm I'm amazed.
+
+[16:50] It's fine. Everything's great. All right so listen, listen to the. So uh I took the 23andMe and Nastasia took the 23 in me. They by the way, they gave you the ability to look at your at the at the updated records, right, Stas?
+
+[17:16] Anyway, whatever. Yeah, so like Nastasia was an extremely early adopter giving her genetic information to the 23andMe Corporation. I was a late adopter. Only after it became apparent that they were stealing my genetic data and using it for nefarious purposes, did I give it to them because that's when it became interesting to me. Uh but the uh so anyway, so uh apparently, like some of us are more genetically disposed to hating the sound of crunching people crunching.
+
+[17:49] People in my family sit and eat and crunch things constantly, constantly. I can't stand it. It's like it's like I wanna soak every crunchy snack in this house in water for like a year or so that it turns to just a sopping wet thing, so I don't have to hear it. It's like Nastasia, I know you're with me on this. Like, yeah, is there anything worse?
+
+[18:11] Let's say, Nastasia, Nastasia. Let's say, let's go back a month and pretend that you're at one of the galler gatherings that you usually cook for when we're not in corona times, right? So you're you're back there and you're sitting there and you're cooking, right? And someone walks up behind you, you hear the rustle of the freaking pack, it's all plastic, crunchy pack. Nobody would do that.
+
+[18:35] Open up and then they're eating a chip or something behind your dang head when you're cooking, you'd punch them. That's why you put like a cheese plate out so that they're not nearing you ever. Right. Also, you know what's like worse than hearing somebody chew. Complete silence.
+
+[18:52] Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what you get now. That's like, right? That's you have now complete silence. You have to like uh yeah, Nastasi is gonna like hide like Nastasi will pay you to ramble on live in the background so that she doesn't have to deal with it when I was waiting for this show to happen, and you were like upset.
+
+[19:12] Well, we could all hear you. We were waiting, we were also waiting for the show to happen, but in order for the show to happen, you have to stop listening to your stuff. There was a confusing technical situation. It's fine. Don't worry.
+
+[19:22] I'm so I'm soaking my chips, all right? I'm soaking them in water. Everything's great. So I have been told that among the other things that I'm a bad person for is extr how extremely intolerant I am of crunching. But I especially hate crunching when I'm not eating.
+
+[19:36] If I'm not eating, right, and other people are crunching, what's worse than that, Nastasia? Well, but again, Dave, you you have people over, you put the cheese plate out, you expect to not eat because you're cooking and they're eating, and you pre-eat. Let's just let's take it to a different scenario. Let's say that there's a certain life coach who most of the time lives in Mexico and she's staying in your house, let's say, right? And you're and you're reading something, you're trying to read something.
+
+[20:05] You're like reading. And already, the already, like if you're in New York, right? New York is so intensely irritating, like every second there'll be some freaking jackhammer outside to take you away, and you have to reread that sentence 85 times. And then a certain life coach sits down, and it could be on the other side of the room, and all you hear is first of all, you're hungry, but you're not eating, right? You're you're hungry.
+
+[20:35] What she does, she does the finger flick. So she puts her hand in, she eats the let's say chips, and then she flicks all five fingers with the salt and the on the fingers, like sorry, onto the floor or like onto the into the ether, you know? That oh my god. Oh, geez, geez, geez, geez, geez. Listen, if you are with somebody else in the house and it's quiet time, and it's quiet time, right?
+
+[21:01] Don't eat crunchy food. Eat crunchy food on your own or in a non-quiet environment. Put on some put on some music. I always have music on, so that that, yeah. Music helps the crunch, for sure.
+
+[21:14] For sure, music helps the crunch. But this is why Nastasia doesn't go to movie theaters. But yes, that is true. And I know for a fact, right? That it's here's the thing.
+
+[21:27] If you're gonna sneak, well, there's no movies now, but if you were like when movie theaters open up again and you go to a movie theater, like have the decency to bring stuff in non-crinkly packaging, right? Right? If you're gonna sneak food in, I get it, you're gonna sneak food in. Have some decency. No crackling, right, Stuzz?
+
+[21:49] I told you that, and you were like, Yeah, you're crazy. And then you went to see the movie, and you were like, wow. Well, it's because I hadn't been to a movie in so long, you know, that when I finally went to a movie. Anyway, all right. Did you have any more questions in the chat or should I go to some of our preset questions?
+
+[22:05] Uh we have we have one that just came in. Uh can I prepare in advance portions of chicken breast complete with spices and oil, uh, sealed in a zippy and frozen with the intention of going straight from the freezer to a low-temp water bath? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[22:22] Yes. The answer to this is yes. However, shortest answer of all time. Yeah, I mean, uh, depend depending on the salt level that you use, you're gonna get some textual changes, but usually those textural changes aren't hated in uh chicken. So there you have it.
+
+[22:40] Hey, has have you have have either of you been to this uh this uh takeout like southern chicken salad restaur uh chicken salad restaurant that's only open six days a week? Have you heard about it? I heard an NPR show on it. I wish I could remember the name of it. Have either of you been to it?
+
+[22:55] Haven't heard of it. Crazy story. Crazy story. Woman, woman starts a woman starts a chicken salad, like doesn't want to like, she has her kids, she wants to do something with chicken salad. She starts this restaurant, which then becomes franchise.
+
+[23:13] She gets, well, she gets divorced, finds another person who's interested in chicken salad, they get married, they have a franchise. This guy gets cancer, dies. She starts a foundation to help people with cancer with the chicken salad, and still sells chicken salad. I mean, like it's sounds like a crazy story, but the reason I was interested is she uses a none of that. Who cares about that stuff, right?
+
+[23:34] No, she uses a uh a boiled chicken, or she calls it boiled, but I'm sure it's not boiled boil, a boiled chicken versus a roast chicken for a chicken salad. And this is the way that Jacques Papin makes his chicken salad, which is also the way he was taught by famous uh actor, but also conductor and food uh bon vivant Danny Kay. So uh like Jacques Lepin in a classics in the field I did a long time ago, his 80s canop series has a uh chicken salad a la Danny K recipe in it, where the trick is you take the chicken, you cut it up, you I can't remember whether he makes like a like uh he starts with water, but I usually do it with chicken stock because why not, you know, cheap chicken stock. You put the veg and the chicken into the pot, like you pack it with chicken, pack it with chicken and just enough liquid around to like take up space, and then you bring it up to the boil, put the lid on it, and then let it ride. The whole chicken cooks through without getting too overcooked.
+
+[24:37] You reinforce the broth because you started with a broth, it doesn't reduce the flavor of the chicken that much, and that is how Danny Kay slash Jacques Papin makes his chicken salad. Sounds very similar to the way this lady makes her chicken for her chicken salad. So there you have it. And I love a chicken salad, and I know for a fact that Nastasia has a lot of raw chicken in her fridge right now that she's not eating. All I have is tofu, Saitan, vegetables, beans.
+
+[25:03] You don't strike me as a Satan person. What happened there? You decided to go Satan? I just decided to go non-meat. Yeah, but why?
+
+[25:13] Well, like you went from never buying that stuff. What would what kind of tofu did you get? I only I don't like silky. I got hard or whatever. It's firm.
+
+[25:21] Firm, what do you do with it? But how like how do you purchase it? You're just getting it at the supermarket? Yeah. What are you doing with it?
+
+[25:29] I've been putting it in oil and then putting in the oven. Finishing in the oven. There's like a lot of it's marinated. Some of them is marinated. It's good.
+
+[25:39] Yeah. Uh now is a good time if you're trapped at home. If you have soybeans and you already have some coagulant, making tofu is in fact a lot of fun. And not that hard. It's messy.
+
+[25:52] I'm not gonna I'd be lying to you if I said it wasn't messy, but it's not that hard. And the tofu you get when you make it yourself is just I mean, I it's just uh to me, it's a different product from the stuff you get in the stores because it's never been, it's never been soaked in water, you know, it's just like it's very kind of like tastes of itself and like has kind of a really cool texture to it. So I would recommend, and if you uh are on Amazon, you can either get the classics in the field that we did a couple of weeks ago on the book of uh shirtle's uh book of uh soy uh tofu and miso, or you can get uh Andrea Nguyen's uh Asian tofu book with which has perfectly good recipes on how to make tofu and go from never making tofu is definitely something to do if you have a lot of time on your hands. Speaking of, Dax wants to learn how to make brioche. That's what he wants to do.
+
+[26:45] I'm like, Dax, why don't you choose a bread that doesn't take so many eggs and so much butter? You know, because like that's the stuff I'm gonna run out of. We're gonna go through pounds and pounds and pounds of butter. You know, already every week I have to make liege waffles for the kid, and then he's also gonna eat the brioche on top of it. I'm like, I'll give you what I'll just give you, I'll give you like a gallon of oil.
+
+[27:06] You can just chug a gallon of oil if you want that much butter. Anyway. Uh we we should we should go to break. And then we do have a very, very we have a doozy of a question that I need to get to from the chat. Alright, so then when we come back though, you want to do the classics in the field or not?
+
+[27:24] Alright. Come right back with classics in the field. This episode is brought to you by Ben to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Level up your pantry. Bend to table is kind of like Stitch Fix, but for your pantry.
+
+[27:44] Monthly upgrades that over time transform the ingredients at a home cook's disposal. Well, what is Stitch Fix? You get clothing sent to your house. The three different subscriptions provide very different options. First box, pantry essentials, incredible dry staples each month.
+
+[27:58] The global delicacies box, a way to explore the cuisine of a different country and culture. The bend to table box includes both pantry essentials and global delicacies. By purchasing any subscription, you'll help sustainable, well produced ingredients and small producers. Hey Nastasia, we're getting boxes. Start your monthly subscription at Bento Table.com.
+
+[28:14] That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. Use the discount code H R N to get $20 off a new subscription, and Ben to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. So Nastasia, you would never consider making your own tofu, right? Not interested. Not interested.
+
+[28:37] Actually, I'm not I'm not even interested in cooking anymore. Like I just it's just like eating food right now. You're wanna wait. So you've you've like as a result of this, you've become one of those human cows that just sits there chewing on their cud, not caring. No, I barely eat.
+
+[28:52] Like, I'm like, what what ritual, you know, am I celebrating right now? Like, it's just me. Um that is true. Like, that's the that's the worst aspect of it. I mean, other people that are like, oh my god, I'm so happy to be with you know whoever they live with, and they're like, we're gonna try out like his grandmother's recipe for the first time.
+
+[29:08] I'm like, yeah, that's great. I'm gonna eat. I'm gonna eat a block of tofu. You're like, you're like, you're like, I'm just gonna I'm gonna soak it in neutral oil because I don't deserve flavor. I'm gonna just sustenance at this one.
+
+[29:25] Maybe I'll salt it. Maybe I won't. I guess I need electrolytes. Yeah. Wow, that's rough.
+
+[29:32] That's rough. I don't even know if I you know what, man. I don't know if I can do classics off of that because I'm just feeling so rough. From Nastasia's sustenance. Oh, by the way, if you hear piano in the background, that I guess it that means it's time for Booker's music class.
+
+[29:46] Uh that he's in the in in the uh in the other room. And uh he hasn't, so he his violin broke. We handed it to Sam Ash, and then I wasn't able to go pick it up uh to get it fixed, so now he's playing quote unquote piano in his room. So there that's what that's what that is. All right, so I'll do some wait.
+
+[30:03] What was the doozy of a question you have me back? Because I have some questions I gotta eat. Are you legit we're not doing the question? I can't, I can't. I gotta do it, I gotta do it afterwards.
+
+[30:10] I can't I can't get all excited for classics in the field. I shower and wash my hair unlike a lot of other people, and I've been like getting dressed and I make my bed. So, like, that's not a problem. It's just I I have not yet done cooking issues in my chonies because I have to walk the dogs before the show. So this is a listeners, listeners, you can look forward to that someday.
+
+[30:33] I'm sure you'll feel the difference. Just so you can just so you can picture it. You are listening to a Nastasia has showered. She has clean hair. I can't, I don't know about you, Matt, but as far as I'm aware, you are listening to a fully clothed production of cooking issue.
+
+[30:48] I mean, everyone knows I'm always fully clothed. You know what I mean? But anyway. Anyway. All right.
+
+[30:53] Blair Gillespie Smith uh says, hi and hello from Poland. I'm putting some work into an espresso concentrate to be stored in individual. Oh, didn't we do this? Didn't we do this last week? Oh, wait.
+
+[31:05] Oh. Oh, that's the same espresso. Okay, of course it's the same espresso thing. Yeah, all right, sure. My bad.
+
+[31:12] All right, wait. Why? It only came in three days ago. I don't know. Maybe they haven't listened to the one from uh last week.
+
+[31:23] Uh it's alright. It was about trying to prevent the overextraction of residual solids and oxidation. Yeah, but I said I didn't think it was the residual solids. It's a it's it's other issues. Okay, this person must have just submitted the same question afterwards.
+
+[31:38] All right, great. Hey, Blair, listen to last week's episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, very on on a nicer note, they thank you for quite literally changing the course of their life through this podcast a few years ago. There you go.
+
+[31:50] So what happened is I went and just tried to push the computer over, but the crappy design on my laptop is that right at the corner is the sleep button. So if you go to just push the computer, like even like like a micro inch over, it just goes, oh, you wanted me to turn off? Okay. And then it turns off. All right.
+
+[32:09] Tom J. Wild wrote in on the Twitter, uh, hey cooking issues. Uh, given I have some downtime, I want to make masa out of corn rather than the whole wheat that I currently use. By the way, wheat, real messy, anyway, it doesn't matter. Uh, the issue is I cannot get non-chicken slash fish feed dried field corn here in the UK.
+
+[32:26] Should I use this? Hope you and your family are safe. Uh, thanks, Tom. Yes, uh, we are safe, but bored out of our skulls. And you here's the issue.
+
+[32:36] So, um, first of all, you can make masa out of popcorn. The issue with popcorn is is that uh popcorn varieties that they sell on the store are designed to have a very, very tough seed coat, uh, and you know, so that you get better explosions. And so uh they are consequently harder even after you make masa, but they can't you can make masa out of popcorn if you can only get a hold of popcorn. It's I've done it. It's you know, not ideal, but it's possible.
+
+[33:04] Um as for feed corn, there's a the couple issues with it. First of all, like the corn doesn't care what it was intended for, you know, the corn itself, right? And since uh, you know, I don't really, you know, care about whether or not it was GMO, etc. etc. Like, just take that where it is.
+
+[33:21] The main issue with feed corn versus human corn is one, it's gonna be a lot filthier, so you're gonna have uh you know a lot in I would guess that it would be a lot filthier in terms of like more rat poop, you know, slightly more rat poop, slightly more uh slightly more hair, slightly more uh slightly you know, more raccoon teeth in it than you would get in, you know, let's say one that was destined for human consumption, because you know, if your chicken eats, you know, one more rat dropping or one more ra uh raccoon tooth, what does it really matter, right? One more pigeon feather. Um so there's that, so you're gonna have to clean that clean the heck out of it, uh, you know, and maybe do better sorting than you otherwise would. The other issue is is that uh I'm pretty sure if I I looked this up a little bit, but I didn't have a lot of time. If you look up in the US, right, uh the question is is how much mold can grow on the corn.
+
+[34:22] So, and we we have a question about this in a second. So if you if you there are limits uh to for corn that humans are gonna eat on uh fungal contamination, and the reason is you don't want to have uh aflatoxins, which are mold-based toxins on the corn, and it's hard to see, right? So you wouldn't necessarily uh know. Now the good news is if you were gonna have that corn and it was uh designed to be fed to animals that people were gonna eat, then it also has limits on um on the fungus that can be in it, on the mycotoxins that can be in it. If, however, it's corn that is being destined for feeding to deer or to wildlife that you're that aren't gonna be consumed later by people, then I don't think there are a lot of limits.
+
+[35:06] So you might have had co corn that had been gotten wet and then moldy, uh, or you know, any one of a number of things. So if it was feed corn that was designed to feed to animals that people were then later gonna eat or eat their products, then I'd say you're fine as long as you give it a thorough uh washdown, and it doesn't matter if it gets wet because you're not grinding it into cornmeal, you're making it into masa, and I would just sort through it to get rid of any additional uh animal droppings or or whatnot. Now, Neil on a similar question from Los Angeles wrote in. That's um remember that woman that did my hair when we were prepping for an event to her brother. Yeah.
+
+[35:47] Uh yeah, we met both of them. Yeah. Yeah. So we went to uh we went to night market in uh and we were doing an event at night market, a staff training, and and actually a pop-up afterwards. And uh, and so Jack and I were doing this staff training, and Nastasia like was like, the hell it is.
+
+[36:06] What the hell is this? So she goes next door to get her hair did, and lady recognized your voice, right? Yeah, yeah. Lady lady recognize, yeah, lady recognizes Nastasia's voice. Well, you tell the story.
+
+[36:20] Yeah, as she's washing my hair, and then she's like, Do you have a podcast? And I was like, Yeah, and then she's like, Do you make the Searzol? And I was like, Yeah. And then my brother makes me listen to the podcast and use a Searsol, he's a huge fan. And then they both ended up coming to the to the thing that night that we were doing, the pop-up.
+
+[36:41] Well, yeah, but she said she hated us. She hated the show and she hated the Sears hates. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I thought we can we converted her when she came to night market, we converted her, no?
+
+[36:53] No, I think she still hates the Sears all on the show. All right. Well, Neil, thanks for still watching. What? Isn't it good that I got my hair done?
+
+[37:05] Nastasia, just because like something good happens from something doesn't mean that the original decision was a good one. Two good things happened. All right, listen. So here's the thing. See the attached photos, which of course you guys can't see because you're on the radio and we don't have the photos on the radio.
+
+[37:34] I used crappy store-bought cream and equally crappy yogurt as a starter. I scraped off all the mold and churned the butter. Uh I haven't eaten it yet because I would prefer not to go to the hospital over some butter. That being said, I'd also uh not to I'd like to not waste the butter. Do you think it's safe to eat or would you feed it to your family?
+
+[37:51] Thanks, Neil from LA. Alright, Neil, I would not okay. Look, here here a couple of things. One. One, you uh you're in LA, so I I'm not I'm not supporting it as a great product or not, but if you need cream that doesn't have carragaenin in it to make butter with, or it's not carrageen anymore, it's gel an.
+
+[38:10] I'm pretty sure the Trader Joe's, at least on the East Coast, their cream does not have uh stabilizer, gel an stabilizer in it. So that's one way to go. Uh if you can, like uh if you if you have access to uh like the restaurant supply, like the ones we get from Dairyland are also just regular pasteurized instead of ultra pasteurized, and you'll get a better result with the butter. But anyway, that's not what you were asking, uh neither here nor there. I would not use yogurt as a starter, I would get some uh cultured buttermilk and use cultured buttermilk as the starter uh for it.
+
+[38:44] And then the last mistake that you've made is it does not require three days of fermentation at 70. I'd bring it up to room temp, let it get a little warmer than that, and like one day max, really, like in general, like 24 hours is all you're gonna need. You don't need three days uh to get the level of tang. And if you do, your temperature is too low and you should raise the temperature. I would not eat it when there's mold on top.
+
+[39:11] Once you get gray mold on top of your uh stuff, especially in something that's a semi-liquid, like just set clotted cream is uh the the actual mold goes much, much deeper into it. So anytime you get a growth like that on top of a liquid, uh you kind of have to discard it. So I would say I would, I mean, I would taste it because that's me, but I wouldn't necessarily feed it to your family. It's not gonna be that kind of aflatoxin if there is one, which you never know, right? And and it's impossible because there's so many different kinds of molds that grow.
+
+[39:46] It's impossible really to identify a mold on something like that. But uh because you didn't inoculate it with a specific known kind of mold, and it's not you know a known benign mold, you have to assume that it's not. Uh, and the other thing about it is um uh I forgot what I was gonna say. But yeah, I would I wouldn't need it. I would taste it for myself.
+
+[40:07] Oh, yeah, because the effects of aflatoxin aren't immediate and acute usually, they're kind of longer term, and so you never know whether or not that cancer that you get down the road is from uh, you know, you never know what it's from, but every little bit of aflatoxin, which is, you know, many aflatoxins are known kind of very potent carcinogens, like every little bit kind of, you know, pushes you closer towards that edge. So I would not, I would not use it. And in the future, I would um I would uh keep your your times a lot shorter. What do you think, Sus? Was that right?
+
+[40:41] This seems like an incredibly good time to avoid completely optional trips to the hospital. That is definitely true. That is definitely true. Um, all right. So and speaking of also bread, right?
+
+[40:54] We didn't we have a bread thing earlier. Uh Scott writes in and says, uh, should I just read I'll read the thing from Scott. So this is, by the way, uh, I was gonna ask him to come on, but I didn't have enough time when I read this, but we could get uh our friend uh Jim Leahy back on the on the show. The only person who is completely unable to not curse for like the very short time that we're on the radio. And uh people who know me in the real life know I know how to curse.
+
+[41:22] Nastasia, when I'm not on the radio, how how long a string of words can you and I put together without a curse in it? You and I are really bad cursors. It's just part of the language, but we really have here. Yeah, I mean, no, but I mean like when you're when you're with us normally, it's like a like a like a burbling brook of bad blue, you know, words, just you know, blah blah blah. Like like just like in like I I'm I'm I'm not gonna, you know, I don't want to like two our own words here.
+
+[41:53] It's usually directed at ourselves because we're like F, yeah. Yeah, but also like, you know, I think we have a we have a a talent, a real talent, for uh combining uh words and curses in unusual ways uh to good effect. This is a this is a skill that we have. You know what I mean? Uh I don't we don't use it on this radio program, but it is one of our known skills that you know that we can just sit there and and occasionally what you're saying, only frat boy you're friends with.
+
+[42:32] Yeah, yeah, Nastasi's the only fat boy I'm bringing. So in general, like she'll use kind of like f frattier insults than I will. But the uh I mean on on many, many, many occasions, Nastasi and I will be talking, and someone next to us will just turn their head and be like, what? What did you say? You know what I mean?
+
+[42:51] Like, it's just like random people, right? You know, and on only one occasion has it ever been like, wow, I think I recognized your voice from that show. Well, if you out more, maybe. Yeah, well, you know, obviously, like they, you know, they don't recognize it because you know, they're like, oh, those guys never curse. And so that's can't be them.
+
+[43:13] It can't be them because whoever that person is is cursing a blue streak. It's crazy. Anyway, uh, so uh we can get Leahy on, but we'll have to like just pre you can be on the bleep. We should really get him on because there's so many bread bakers right now. Be because of the COVID?
+
+[43:35] And because of it's ridiculous. It's kind of gross. And since we can't have live callers currently, we you know, guests is uh is much easier. Uh yeah, I'll I'll I'll diligently bleep him. We can do this.
+
+[43:48] Yeah, Nastasia says people are baking bread. It's kind of gross. It's kind of gross. What's gross about bread now? So do you do you hate this?
+
+[44:05] So, like, here's so those of you that know me personally, I don't know if I've talked about this on air. Like, I like, I think people should do yoga. I think it's great. But I don't like the yoga look on the street. For kind of because it's you're saying is the bread thing for you like the yoga thing on the street is for me, where it's like someone's calling attention, like me, me, me, me, me, me, me.
+
+[44:29] Like that? Maybe, I maybe. I think this whole thing is just sort of the whole the um, what are we in? Quarantine thing is kind of gross because people are like, I don't know. I I I don't know how to explain it.
+
+[44:41] Maybe I'll explain it next week when I wrap my head around it, but there's a certain thing that I really hate about it. About wait, but I'm trying to figure it out so that people can get ready for your explanation next week. So it's just the gist of it is, you know, people are always like, I can't wait to Netflix and chill. All I want to do is Netflix and chill and like stay inside, and all I do is look at my phone, and I hate work, and now everybody has the opportunity to stay home and they're like, this is awful. What the hell?
+
+[45:05] When's this gonna be like you know, I want to be outside? Nobody's ever wanted to be outside, you know, like kids never wanted to be outside, they want to be on their phone, and now they're like, Oh, why can't I go out? Like, what? What? I just don't get it.
+
+[45:16] So you're saying people got what they wish for and ended up hating it. And now they're like doing all these things like baking bread, which are things that like you would do, or people who are more ambitious would do, who like try to find the time to like do the stuff, you know, to like make the most of their life. And now all these people who really loved doing nothing are like, look at me, you know. They could have done that when we weren't quarantined, but they decided to watch that session. So all right, cooking issues people.
+
+[45:46] Uh discuss for next week. Yeah. Uh Dave, we should do classics because we gotta bounce. All right, I got one other thing first before classic. One of the can I do one thing and then the classics?
+
+[45:56] All right. All right, Eddie Danell, I'm eventually gonna get to you on carbonation because there's someone on the internet who is uh got also building a carbonation rig and they're gonna do some sort of blog on it. Listen, ask me all the carbonation questions you have for next week. Everyone's carbureting now, it's part of the thing that they're also doing now that they're stuck home alone. There's some classic mistakes.
+
+[46:17] Do not follow other people's mistakes who decided for like, you know, they decided one weekend that they were gonna become quote unquote carbonation experts and they build some sort of janky carbonation rig and then they post it on the YouTube. Listen to someone who's been doing it for like 25 years instead. All right, like, like all I care about is carbonated water and my family, and that's pretty much it. Uh so like so like ask me your questions, and I'm not gonna lie to you. And when I tell you something, I'm not kidding, I'm serious.
+
+[46:52] Also, realize this. If I say to if you give me a thing and I say I don't know, it's because I haven't tested it, although I've tested in millions of other things. I'm not gonna lie to you and tell you something makes a difference when it doesn't. That's just not my style. All right.
+
+[47:07] So um, I'm not posting anything on, I haven't posted anything on Instagram really, other than stuff for uh our bar or anything, just because you know this this is gonna sound kind of bad, Stas, but I feel like if I posted it, like the the the industry is in such a bad way right now. There is no industry. The industry is is is been halted, right? And so many people are shafted that for me to post something on the internet being like here's a recipe for blah blah to me. I just finished I just finished the book about the man surviving the Holocaust, and how you should not let guilt stand in the way of making yourself or other people happy.
+
+[47:50] So just because other people are going through something unfortunate right now, you can contribute and make people happy by posting things that they would find enjoyable and could and could possibly turn their you know sadness around. So, what's the difference between that and the Mario Batali cinnamon buns, or as we call them apology rolls? Um, because you didn't rape women, yeah, it's true. Yeah, yeah. Um not your fault, you know.
+
+[48:17] This so like do good and make people happy. Alright, alright. So I'll talk about this real quick. So uh for those of you that know, uh, I like non-melting squeaky cheeses. We've discussed this.
+
+[48:31] How Matt, how many times have we discussed squeaky cheese? Too many. Too many times, all the time. Right. So let's just go for one second.
+
+[48:37] There's a kind of cheese that I I made. I made it, I didn't talk about this. What do you mean, uh? Go anyway. So uh there's a finished cheese called uh Ustolepa, right?
+
+[48:51] Which uh, but it can also be written the other way, like lepa usto, which either means bread cheese or cheese bread, depending on which way you go. Uh, it's also made anywhere that there is like uh a lot of um Scandinavian influence in the US, so they make it in Wisconsin and up in Minnesota, and it is a non-melting cheese, but it is very different from any other sort of non-melting squeaky cheese, because to make it, you have to bake it, right? So it's literally baked as it's made. So very quickly, uh, in order for cheese to melt properly, and this is when people, you know, they add their salts, you know, they're what's called emulsifying salts, even though, or melting salts, even though that's you know, they're kind of a misnomer, to things like processed cheese to get them to do, or when you're adding your white wine to your fondue. Nastasi, you gotta do a fondue.
+
+[49:40] For who? Oh, it's true. Do you know what's depressing? You know what I did recently? I had to I went on one of these things where you just uh FaceTime or whatever Zoom chat, like your family, and we all sit there with a glass of wine in separate boxes and like look at each other.
+
+[49:56] And I have to say, wow, that's depressing, huh? It's so depressing. I mean, people enjoy it. It was good to see the people. It was good to see people, I guess, but something about it, like I don't know, something about it, the virtual happy hour, something about it.
+
+[50:14] Anyway um, so uh you have a when you when you have a cheese, right, and you need it to melt, you need to have just the right amount of acidity. If you have if a cheese is too acidic, right, or very acidic, uh, then it won't melt because you've so kind of glommed the uh casein uh together that you can't melt it to kind of break it apart. On the other hand, if there's not enough acidity, right, it also doesn't melt. So some cheeses that are high in acid, like feta or a lot of goat cheeses won't melt because they're high in acid. Whereas a lot of the cheeses that don't melt on the other side, like Halumi or uh like this finished squeaky cheese or quesa parafruere, which is another um, you know, which is the kind of the Dominican uh version of frying cheese, right?
+
+[51:04] These things don't melt because they have a very high pH. They don't have any acidity, they don't have enough acidity in them to be able to melt. And so what you do with these things, and so when you're making uh squeaky cheese curds, right, they're somewhat acidified, but they aren't, they are so fresh that they haven't had a time for their pH to drop enough or for them to lose their squeak. So that's why they lose their squeak. If you make a cheese with a very high pH in it, you know, very low acidity, right?
+
+[51:32] Then it doesn't lose its squeak, especially when it's reheated, because you have deactivated the uh you've deactivated the culture. There's no culture, either in the case of uh Finnish squeaky cheese, the uh Eustalepa, there's no culture in it at all. You've not cultured it at all. So there it's not the pH isn't dropping, it's not getting more acidic over time, especially because you're gonna bake it. So, what you do is you take your milk, you heat it up to like 90 Fahrenheit or something like this, you hit it with a lot of extra rennet because rennet, which you're by the way, I went to Calusteans, and I'm not making a knock against Calustians, but they did not refrigerate their liquid rennet.
+
+[52:12] I bought it anyway, which was stupid. This is before the COVID thing hit, and I wasted two gallons of milk, wasted, and then I ran a test on their rennet, and it's just garbage. I wish Calusteans would not sell stuff that's supposed to be refrigerated and not refrigerated. It really ticked me off because I wasted two gallons of milk and I lost the rennet. But modernist pantry.com, which is still shipping even during this COVID thing, gave me some rennet uh that I use tablet rennet.
+
+[52:37] Now, the tablet rennet, it costs more and it comes in these tablets, but it lasts a long time, doesn't need to be refrigerated. So it's good to use if you're gonna like not refrigerate or if you're gonna uh order over the internet. Anyway, modernistpantry.com. So I used a lot of extra rennet because uh I should probably tone it down a little bit. Set it, you cut it, uh, and it makes these clean curds.
+
+[52:57] Then once you get the curds and you weigh it, you let them like self-settle into a into a disc, you then put that disc on a rack in the in the in your oven and you broil it and you literally broil it till it gets brown on both sides, and the whey is streaming out, so you have to have it over a pan so that you catch the extra whey. But then that cheese is super delicious. It's called bread cheese. Look it up. Very easy to make, you just have to use extra rennet.
+
+[53:23] Um, and I like it because I like a squeaky cheese, I like a non-melting cheese, I like uh a baked cheese. Save the whey, which other people won't tell you on the internets, save the whey and make a ricotta. I made a delicious actual whey instead of a whole milk ricotta with the leftovers that was also delicious. So that's that's what I've been doing during these COVID times. Um, anyways.
+
+[53:46] Uh oh, also one thing to note. If you're like me and you're using um store-bought milk that is homogenized and pasteurized, make sure milk. Why? It's gross. When did you start drinking milk?
+
+[54:01] Wait, we gotta, we gotta go. Hold on a second. So uh when did you start drinking milk? Anyway, uh calcium, calcium chloride. You have to add some calcium chloride because uh you need to increase the amount of free calcium in the milk if it's been processed like this.
+
+[54:15] You normally drink milk? Coffee in coffee. Oh, yeah, well, but I never drank milk and coffee. That's gross to me. I know everyone else loves it.
+
+[54:23] To me, it's gross. Anyway. I do not love it, I find it gross. So wait, do I have time for my classics in the field? Quickly.
+
+[54:29] Very fast. Classics are in the field. Yeah. We didn't have it last week, so this week we have it. This week is a classic, first published in 1985.
+
+[54:39] It is the Razor Edge Book of Sharpening by John Jiranich. Now, this is the book when I first started uh researching how to sharpen things way, way, way, way back in the day that I bought. It's uh now it's written in 1985. So realize that it is uh what we would like to say out of date. So if you go on the Amazon, uh look, this is why it's a classic in the field.
+
+[55:04] You're not like you're not we when you read someone that was wrote something a long time ago, you don't blame them for not being up to date. Am I right about this, Matt? Yeah, you have to read it with the idea that it was written in 1985 and then apply your mental knowledge of it to that. So John Jiranich was a barber in the Korean War, and then later started a knife sharpening business where he became the whole family joined in on this knife sharpening business, where they would sharpen knives for food processing, and then became a world expert on how to keep things sharp and how to sharpen them. So mainly his main the main business, and you can still go to uh their website.
+
+[55:49] If you look up uh John Jiranich uh Razor Edge, you can go to Razor Edge System. They still manufacture things uh for um you know for like meat processing companies. But the cool thing about both John and his son is they hold, wait for it, the world record, the Guinness World Record in shaving, shaving with a double bit axe. And so, like this guy's standard trick was to go sharpen his double bit, you know, lumberjack axe and then shave off a giant beard with it. And there's a picture of him on the cover doing this.
+
+[56:25] He's got his full flannel, his, you know, his beanie on, and a and a and a honking double bit axe, and he's just sitting there and the hair is just flying off of his face. It's an amazing sight to see. But in this book, uh, he talks about a lot of uh things and how to sharpen all various different kinds of blades. And this is he got dinged about it. So, for instance, uh uh one of the one star reviews on Amazon.
+
+[56:49] This book is sadly outdated, long-winded and incomplete. It's long on folksy anecdote, but short on useful info. Discussion of steel types is limited to two categories, high carbon and stainless. Author seems clueless as to why one some one sometimes holds an edge longer than another. This this reviewer is an idiot.
+
+[57:07] They can't look and see the gem, the classic that's here, and then use the knowledge that John Juranich has given you from over 40 years, even at the time he was writing in the 80s, over 40 years of knowledge on keeping things sharp, right? And then applying that to what we now know about new steels and technologies. This is a good book. I originally, when I got it, uh was all nervous about sharpening knives. And you know, oh my god, how do you sharp?
+
+[57:33] So, like, if you don't know what I'm talking about, if you don't know how to raise a burr, read the book. If you don't know how, if you don't know what I'm talking about, raise a burr I don't have time to tell you about this. But if you don't know about raising a burr or how to test sharpness on a knife, read the book. Now, he wants you to buy his uh his guides, which are a crutch. You don't need them.
+
+[57:50] You can learn to freehand sharpen, right? But he made me not worried about using uh oil on a on a whetstone. He made me not worry about a lot of things, and he also talked about the the fundamental thing, which is two different bevels when you're sharpening. So doing your first where you hone it down, pick up a burr on both sides, and then your secondary edge, which maintains a longer cutting thing. If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out the Razor Edge Book of Sharpening and realize that yes, things have changed in technology in the past, I don't know, 35 years since Mr.
+
+[58:23] Juranich wrote this book, but it doesn't mean that this is not a good basis of knowledge for what it means to keep something sharp. Stay safe out there, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[58:45] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[59:07] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. And it'll hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:27] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from my house in Manhattan where Nastasia is somewhere. Where the hell are you now? I'm in Connecticut. You're in Connecticut. Matt's in Rhode Island.
+
+[0:37] John, you're in the you're in uh in uh wherever in the hell, what is that? Murray Hill. And there's nobody in the one in Brooklyn. We are a Brooklyn free. What?
+
+[0:50] Yeah, just zombies in Bushwork. We are now a Bush Week free show for the duration of the uh of the corona. Yeah. I do feel cleaner than usual. Wow.
+
+[1:03] A lot of harshness on the on the So I guess, you know, Matt, what you're talking about. And by the way, we have Nastasia Lopez as usual. How are you doing, Stas? Good. We got Matt in the booth, although someone pointed out you're no longer in a booth, unless you have a booth in Rhode Island.
+
+[1:19] I refer to the m this place as a booth. Well, what do you wear you really, though? Please tell me. I'm in an attic, but it's a nice, it's not like the dingy attic that you're imagining. It's a finished attic.
+
+[1:31] Alright. And you and you put on pants for the show, I hope. This is chony. I did my first two hours in my bathrobe and pajamas, but I did put on pants and a shirt for the show right now. Still wearing slippers, though.
+
+[1:43] Right. We are a family-friendly and also a chony-free show. So we are not recording. We we we treat the audience as though we respect them. We put on clothes to talk to them.
+
+[1:55] Right? I mean, in general, I hope. In general. Yeah, Stas can't can't co-sign so she must be still in her in her nighttime outfit okay and uh for the uh I think the first time on the show we have uh the new Booker and DAX customer service representative uh John Nihul how you doing John how you doing I'm doing great thanks for having me on so now if you have a problem with a Booker In DAX piece of equipment like his fault but it's it's our fault but he's gonna solve it going forward so you want to tell them a little something about your uh background there John yeah um I originally started out as a French major art history minor and undergrad went on to work in kitchens here in New York City I've been doing that for about 11 years now during that time I also went to grad school where I got my master's degree in art history and focused on uh food and art the relationship between the two and then worked at the University of Connecticut for a couple years as a professor and curator of the museum there then worked at MoFad as the culinary operations manager and curator and unfortunately things that are very lucrative job yes loaded filthy filthy lucre so speaking of uh food related art speaking of food related art so uh went back when I was in art school and just beforehand, well, you know, when I was graduating from college, so I graduated college in 93, went to art school from 95 to 97. And this was kind of the sweet spot for kind of uh body image related um art and also kind of you know nouveau relativism in um you know in the in the kind of the New York art scene at the time.
+
+[3:57] And so uh what do you what do you think about that era of food art? I was always I always kind of like it was never my thing in McJig. So, but as a specialist in the field, you know, like what what are your what are your thoughts? So, like what was so uh my research was a little more intense than just looking at that. It was, I took a really intense philosophical perspective, looking at a lot of Kant and Hume, because they back in the 18th century set up these notions of standards of taste when looking at art.
+
+[4:26] And so I use that dual notion of taste to look at food as well and show how certain types of cuisine or certain dishes could fit into the realm of what they call art that it makes you think more than it has a purposiveness without a perfect. Yeah. Well, first of all, Kant is a word you want to pronounce very carefully when you're speaking on the radio. Okay. K-A-N-T.
+
+[4:47] Yeah, yeah. And secondly, secondly, like, are you the other person on earth who's read Kant's Critique of Judgment? Because it's the weirdest view of art and aesthetics that you could possibly imagine. And anyone who says I like Kant, I'm like, what about how crazy his views of aesthetics are? They're freaking nuts.
+
+[5:10] Am I wrong about this? I mean, for those of you that don't know, Kant was a weird dude. I believe he's the one that had a giant head. He was a weird-looking dude and a weird dude. And he had he didn't travel more than I think three or four or five miles from his house because he had all sorts of strange mental issues.
+
+[5:31] Now I've told like my cousin James, who is a firm believer in not looking outside of the text of a work to get information about the text. He he hates whenever I do this, whenever I harp on someone's kind of personal, like mental attributes to discuss what's going on in their text. But especially for someone who is such a like uh you know a crazy, I mean, he's no Hegel. I mean, you can read Kant, right? But I mean, Kant also, you know, uh, let's just say he's not always the clearest with his writings.
+
+[6:04] And uh, so, you know, I am a big believer in saying, okay, yeah, let's take the text for what it is, but let's look at what an extreme nut job the person was in real life as well. You know what I mean? And so Kant, right, who is never leaving, you know, more than a couple of hours or a couple of uh miles from his house because among other things, it might make you late for appointments, right? Like, I mean, complete complete wingeding lunatic, has this idea of aesthetics whereby uh beauty and aesthetics are pleasure that you can derive from something completely removed from your personal interest in it, right? And so he has this notion of the beautiful and the sublime, which are frankly nuts, right?
+
+[6:49] So then, especially if you're gonna try to tie that in with food, which is an inherently kind of personal need and personal enjoyment thing, like so. I presume that you were kind of anti-Kantian, or were you did you somehow try to thread that needle? I took, I didn't really take a stance on his sanity or his positions of on things. I more just accepted that they were givens in the art historical record and that I chose those two those two philosophers specifically again because the notions of taste but also because their writings have shaped art history a lot in terms of like establishing what is beautiful and aesthetically pleasing and all that kind of stuff. And so I just wanted to show that using their own arguments when they have said that food cannot be art but using new cuisine like specifically for an Adria that his dishes could fit within their criteria for what is called art.
+
+[7:44] Alright judgment on their stuff it was more just trying to fit this stuff within their body of work. So just to be clear you're basically backhand complimenting Faron Adria by saying that his work is best enjoyed with no personal attachment to whether you get something out of it or not. Wow bang this is the craziest most crazy like over the top erudite backhanded compliment of Faron Adria that I've ever heard in my life ever in my life great glad I couldn't make that benchmark all right so now okay so that's what you're doing tonight at 5 30 so yeah so John it's at f it's at 5 30 right yes tonight at 5 30 on the mofad's Instagram uh account Dave will be joining in and making his cliff old fashioned uh cocktail on there is going to be demoing it and speaking with Sari the public programs manager over at the museum and yeah just uh chatting with Dave and watching him put together a cocktail while we're on all under quarantine. It's technically called Mofad happy Hour, but that Dave's been referring to it as the unhappy hour. Yeah.
+
+[8:52] I mean, come on, let's be honest. Can't we be honest? Hey, everybody, it was Dave's birthday yesterday. Happy birthday. 49, another year closer to the box.
+
+[9:06] Listen, uh going back to going back to the cliff old fashion. One last thing about Kant's critique of judgment. Please read the cliff notes. Don't bother, like, unless you're a scholar, like trying to wade through that, especially if you're not like already like well versed in like the critique of pure reason. Like the critique of judgment is not something you want to dive headlong into, I'd say.
+
+[9:31] What do you think there, John? I'd agree. There is one professor out at San Diego Mesa College, Dwight Furrow, who is really able to break it down in a very explainable way, especially. Yeah, I mean, alright. So like tune in to him and read that if you're interested in weird freak shows ideas of what is beautiful and sublime.
+
+[9:53] Uh so uh now back to the back to the museum thing. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna get on Instagram live and make a cocktail, and then I'm gonna like drink it. Yeah, and talk with Sari. I think she's gonna have some questions for you and talk to you about the cocktail and why you do certain things the way you do.
+
+[10:10] Um why I do certain things the way I do. Yeah, all right. Okay. Yeah, it'll be straightforward. It'll be fun.
+
+[10:16] Should be fun. Okay, sure. Yeah, yeah. Um, all right, so we got some questions in. Uh dear, by the way, uh, you can't listen live, so you can't hear me, but if you listened last week, you can put things in live to the um chat room and Matt can read them.
+
+[10:35] Uh Matt can read them on on the air. So um, so with this we have in uh dear Dave, this is from Monty in Jacksonville. I burned my slash. So I think what Monty means is cuts down a bunch of stuff off of his property, puts them in a pile, and then burns it. So I burn my slash and can end up with a cone of coals two feet high, which is awesome, and five or six feet in diameter.
+
+[10:59] So a good thing of coals here. I often throw root vegetables in a Dutch oven and roast them up. I haven't done that with meat though, as it seems that the iron will get too hot and would burn the meat. Ideas for using this massive amount of heat without the work of turning a spit. Uh Monty from Jacksonville.
+
+[11:14] So uh I don't know. Uh what do you what do you think, John? You ever cooked with uh big uh coals? I haven't. It's something that I'd really like to do more of though.
+
+[11:23] So yeah, don't feel like I don't know, maybe just like yeah, go for it. The thing is is that um, you know, you you might just want to wait for the coals to kind of burn down. You know what I'm saying? Like uh like it's almost like if you could prepare this stuff ahead of time, you would burn it in a pit, kind of move it aside, put it in and bury it, and use the retain heat from the fact that you heated the hell out of the ground. You know what I mean?
+
+[11:52] Like that's how like a lot of like the large-scale like animal things work is they they basically treat the entire earth as a retained heat masonry oven, right? And you you just burn the heck out of it and then sweep the stuff aside and then bury it and let the carryover do it, right? So like all of your initial high heat browning stuff's happening at the beginning, and then it kind of uh goes through. But I've never actually done it myself. You know, I don't know whether you'd have to like bury thermocouples in it or or to test or or whatnot, or whether you just just don't care whether or not it gets a little overcooked.
+
+[12:26] But what do you think, John? You think something like that would work? Yeah, I think that would work too. And frankly, I would also just try putting the coals right on the like underneath the Dutch oven and on top of them, like separate from the rest of the fire. So it's a little bit more controlled and tempered.
+
+[12:38] But I know you know, I've seen online videos of people cooking hunks of meat and things like that. I know one of the modernist cuisine photographs is a Dutch oven cut in half with like a pork rack in there, and they've got the coals on the top and coals on the bottom as well. Um information out there. Most people's Dutch ovens nowadays, modern Dutch ovens, are not the Dutch ovens of old, right? So if you look at like an old school like uh camp oven, right?
+
+[13:07] The specifically it's the lid that's first of all, like they're all enameled now, they're all fancy, right? They're fancified. But as opposed to the old straight cast iron ones that are just cast iron in and out, no enamel. But also the old style, so if you look at the you know, the crusade, right? The lid on those things, if you were to pour liquid on the top of those, they it would just stream off, right?
+
+[13:31] But an old school camp oven has a lid, a lip on the lid that goes around, and the purpose of that lip is to hold coal, right? So that you could actually adjust the upper heat and the bottom heat. And there's a there's a uh a book out of Australia whose main uh thing is cooking, I forget the name of it. It's something like dampers, which is an Australian like camp biscuit, and and anyway, something like that, and it's about cooking uh in the outback in camp ovens. I forget the name, I have it somewhere.
+
+[14:04] I'll try to locate it, maybe put it on um, you know, send it to Matt so he can put it up on the on the thing here. Uh, but there's a whole bunch of recipes in there on how to cook with a camp oven, but by and large, and and if you read, and I have the all these books as well. If you read the kind of late 19th century, very early 20th century American camp literature, right, which was all based around basic, you know, based around rich white city men, right, uh hiring large amounts of often brown people to take them into the quote unquote woods, hack down giant amounts of trees, and like build crazy camps in the in the forest, like three or four or five hours outside of where they lived, right? So now it seems gross, but the technical literature of it is great on like building building camps, like large-scale camps like this, uh, is that they would build massive fires, but then most of the cooking was done on a smaller scale fire that they pull off. And the same is true uh in the Australian camp uh book.
+
+[15:08] So a lot of that Dutch oven cooking, you'd you would pull stuff off of your fire and then use it on the Dutch oven uh all the way around. And meat cooking works great in that as well. I just don't have a lot of experience with it personally. I would also say to look at some restaurants, you know, that do a lot of wood fire cooking, and then also, well, I don't like him too much, Francis Malman. You know, he does a lot of of work with that stuff as well.
+
+[15:30] And if you don't want to turn a spit, right, but you have a really high tripod, you could do the uh you could do the tripod rotating string action and have it kind of self-rotate, but the top of it will always be under. So you'd have to flip it halfway between, but you could get that kind of rotation action or get it on the side. You know, I'm talking about, uh guys, the tripod with the string, yeah. Or, you know, you could do what they used to do back in the old days, uh, which is uh get a dog and have a dog running in a wheel, uh, you know, the spit dog, and then you know, the dog just sits there running like a hamster in a wheel, turning the turning the uh and I've been on the site, so Nastasia poked fun at me for a uh uh um a pilot that I did once. Remember this, Nastasia?
+
+[16:14] Time machine? Yeah. And one of the things that they were testing was spit dogs, and I believe my memory serves me, they actually had a dog in a large hamster wheel turning a spit. I think they actually did it, but I can't, I can't remember. If anyone has an experience taking, I guess you what would you use?
+
+[16:33] Like a sled dog kind of a dog? I mean, you wouldn't want something so furry because it's near a fire, but you'd need something that wants to just sit there and run. What do you like a terrier? What do you hold a piece of meat in front of the wheel and have it keep trying to get the meat? What do you do?
+
+[16:47] No one, no one suggests you. Do I have to have all the suggestions? You guys can't give me anything. I can't believe that in this in this trail or the in the pilot for this episode, they would have actually tried that. That that sounds well, no, no, they shot the whole, they shot the whole first episode.
+
+[17:08] They shot the whole first episode. And how did you have to come out? I forget. I don't even remember. Oh, no, I didn't come out of the fridge.
+
+[17:14] The chefs came out of the there was a fridge, there was a refrigerator time machine, and it had like the electric effects like uh like you get from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which by the way, is a great movie. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure is a great movie. I'm I'm I'm gonna go ahead and say that it ranks right. So I've always, I'm not one of these like, you know, like canoe come lately fans. Like I've been a uh a fan of uh Keno Reeves for like a long time, all right?
+
+[17:43] And I'm gonna say it's right up there with speed and the John Wick series. I'm gonna go ahead and say, and you know, which is saying a lot. Are you guys all Keno Reeves fans or no? No. Uh no?
+
+[17:55] What do you I enjoyed the hell out of the John Wick movies? They're stupid and they're great for just you know mindless violence. I love it. What about what about Bill and Ted's? I mean, Bill and Ted's is great.
+
+[18:11] All right, all right. Yeah, no. I mean, also like The Matrix, that was that was the movie when. Oh, yeah, I even forgot about Matrix. I forgot about the Matrix.
+
+[18:20] Uh anyway, Bill and Ted, right up there. Whatever happened to the other guy. What did he end up doing? I know what happened to Chris Farlin. He died.
+
+[18:30] Right? Anyway, a whole generation, my generation learned history from Bill and Ted's uh excellent adventure. Anyway, uh John's not weighing in. John, not a fan of Bill and Ted. I mean, I I haven't seen it.
+
+[18:44] I think, you know, not too familiar with uh Keanu Reeves's body of work. I can say the matrix, but other than that, not too familiar. What? Yeah. What about point break?
+
+[18:54] Haven't seen it. Like, Nastasia, how could you not be a fan? I I just don't like him. I don't like him. You're like, you had coffee with the guy, and you were like, this guy's an a-hole, and that was it.
+
+[19:07] I feel like you have to either like him or uh Nicolas Cage, and you can't do Nicholas Cage. I love Nicholas, I love Nicolas Cage. Now listen. You are a male in his late 40s, so of course you like both. Well, you just said you can't like both.
+
+[19:26] The rest of the thing. You just said you, your words, I'm not supposed to like both. Not my words, your words. And then you're like, well, of course, of course you like both. Yes, you're not supposed to like both.
+
+[19:38] How am I not supposed to? Why would you not? How like, so like on what planet, first of all, if if Nicholas Cage had never done another movie after Raising Arizona, he'd still be great. Because Raising Arizona is like one of the all-time classic movies. Holly Hunter and freaking uh John Goodman and Nicholas Cage and Randall Tex Cobb, the ex-boxer, as the uh lone rider of the apocalypse.
+
+[20:09] I mean, doesn't get much better in like an early corn brother. You're not gonna credit the baby by name? I don't know the baby's name. Do you? Not much of a super fan then.
+
+[20:19] No, I'm not gonna say it was a super fan, I just said it was a great movie. I'm not, you know, I ain't nobody's super fan, Matt. Anyway, uh, so we answered Monty's question from Jacksonville. Uh say Alexander Mann on the chat room last time was like, uh, hey guys, wanted to revisit my question for Dave or anyone else that might know. I've got barrel-aged tallow washed bourbon.
+
+[20:42] So here's the thing. So you tallow wash the bourbon and then re-barrel-aged it. That's what I'm getting out of this, right? That I'm making and using for burnt and bourbon cocktails. I'd like to use a hot poker for the for those hot caramelized flavors.
+
+[20:55] I'm currently using the pan method, but it doesn't work as quickly, and I'd like to make smaller batches. Any direction for where I can get a hot poker for home use? No. Like, listen, listen. Okay, so if there's no acid in it, you can do it the old school way, which is go on McMaster car, look for a soldering copper, right?
+
+[21:22] And get a big one. One that's uh, I don't remember the size, but ours were at least like an inch and a half around. They're big, right? Long, heavy. Keep those suckers on the fire for a long, long, long time, like on a very hot fire for a long time, and then use those.
+
+[21:40] Now, anything with acid in it, you're gonna get a little bit of uh kind of that sucking on a penny taste. But in a non-acidic environment, especially if you season it by using it a bunch first for a while, it works. And that's what we you that's what I used to use before I started building the hot pokers. But if you're gonna build a hot poker, like unless you get the exact one, which uh, you know, are the what are they four-inch, 500 watt Wattlow uh cartridge heaters, weld them on to the end of a stainless steel stick. I mean, it's kind of hard to get it right uh in a way that's gonna constantly light it on fire.
+
+[22:15] But if you if you don't think you need to light it on fire, you can try with a uh soldering copper. Um I would not use, I've tested slugs of stainless steel, they're no good. I've tested slugs of iron, they tasted terrible. I've tested uh a bunch of stuff. I've also used spiral heaters, they work.
+
+[22:34] The the problem with making a red hot poker is an electric one, is that if especially if you want something to catch on fire, it's a very fine balancing act because uh with the repeated in and out and the fact that you need it to heat up relatively quickly, it's hard to do um accurate temperature control at those very high temperatures and at those very high temperatures that you need for spontaneous ignition. Um if you overshoot by a hundred degrees, you burn out your elements very quickly. And so that's the that's the kind of an i issue that you run into. So you try to get uh a heating element that can just barely heat up to the right temperature in free air, right? And then you you you use that.
+
+[23:14] But it's a it's a it's a balancing act. It took me a while to get it right. So and don't and remember, personal health danger, yada yada, etc. etc. We did have one other person from the chat way in.
+
+[23:27] Uh it's really just more of a response than a question. Wally said, thanks for thinking about my ste uh uh oven steam quest. I used a silicon hose from the instant pot pressure weight nipple to a stainless steel drinking straw inside the oven. I may drill a hole in the side of the oven to mount the straw as the hose is crushed by the oven door seal, great crust and a bit more spring worth the effort. Cool, nice.
+
+[23:52] And speaking of uh speaking of uh steam and and oven spring, that that is the kind of the the crux of uh Jim Leahy's Dutch oven um bread, no need bread thing. It's like there's two things. There's the one is that you don't need to need it if you're gonna let it rise for a long, long, long time, right? Which he does for like 24 hours. And the second aspect of that is he cooks it in the in the Dutch oven or in a heavy uh pot, so that you're trapping the steam next to the bread for the initial part of the cook.
+
+[24:24] So I didn't mention that during the steam conversion, but that's you know, there's really two magical parts to Leahy's bread recipe. Uh, are we gonna get him back on again, Stas or what? If you're thinking about doing uh uh Instagram live with him, the next Instagram live. Okay. But then can we get can we get three people on an Instagram live?
+
+[24:44] Boy, friends. Um, but we are trying to find another system to include him. Or you and him can go at it. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[24:54] I don't know. I don't know. Uh all right. So then let's take a break uh real quick here and then come back. All right, we'll be right back with cooking issues.
+
+[25:06] This episode is brought to you by Ben to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Today we're gonna talk about the essentials box. Ben sent me one here. It says ding dong, it's Ben. It's got a picture of half of his face on it.
+
+[25:23] All right. We got community greens pasta. Now, I've heard good things about community grains, but I've never actually tried it myself. Here we have a hard white winter wheat. Anyway, it looks good.
+
+[25:33] I'm anxious to try it. Rancho Gordo, by the way. Bunch of Rancho Gordo beans. We got some uh we got some Scarlet Runner beans. And then the one that I'm frankly most uh excited about is the Geechee Boy Mill stuff out of uh Charleston, South Carolina.
+
+[25:49] Uh they we have here some Jimmy Red grits, so Jimmy Red is a variety of corn delicious. The grits from this are, and I've made these because I bought it when I was in Charleston, brought it home with me, cooked it, gave it to my wife who grew up most of the time young in the south, and she was like, damn, them's good grits. And it's all kind of nice, easy to use, you know, not something that you're gonna have to make crazy recipes to get to use. All just very high quality products that are in the realm of what you would use in uh staples for a pantry. Start your monthly subscription at Benditable.com.
+
+[26:20] That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. Use the discount code H R N to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Iman Akdemir wrote in and said, hello. I'm studying philosophy in Istanbul, but recently I spent most of the time uh trying to develop a simple and delicious drink for kids and for the millions of diabetics in my country. I am working on a sugar-free lemonade, which is sweetened with the stevia with stevia leaves instead of stevia extract or any other natural or artificial sweetener.
+
+[26:56] But the stevia stevia is a tricky plant. It contains a sweetness that comes along with a heavy liquorish taste. I would say poison taste when brewed. Until now we have achieved the best taste when simply cold brew with lemon peels and approximately two grams per liter of uh Paraguayan um stevia leaves for about seven to eight hours in the fridge with a splash of lemon juice. During my research I came across liquid intelligence, and I wondered if you have any ideas uh on how to improve the taste and preserve the drink without sacrificing taste.
+
+[27:24] Alright. So one of the issues on preserving lemon, and this is something that uh I'm gonna talk about the lemon first. Like, I personally don't like stevia. I think it tastes poisonous. Yes.
+
+[27:36] Yeah. John, what do you think about stevia? Yeah, not great. Matt. Never intentionally consumed stevia.
+
+[27:45] What? Haven't you had it in drinks? I don't uh what drink? Like what? Why?
+
+[27:52] Why would I buy that? Listen. Stevia. Matt in the booth is secretly a liar. I want everyone to know this that Matt in the booth lies constantly.
+
+[28:01] Just constantly liar. So, what drink have I had that would have stevia? I don't know. How do you walk around for like your whole life and never have had stevia? Nastasia, back me up on this.
+
+[28:12] It's true. It's true. Are you saying? So, okay, my experience of stevia is that I would choose in a coffee shop to put it in things. You're telling me that it's in like packaged goods that I might buy off the No, someone at some point in your life, someone's handed you something, you tasted it and been like, what is that?
+
+[28:28] And they're like, that's stevia. Well, okay, then I didn't know that that was the horrible, but I do remember spinning that drink out. It was really bad. Okay. So anyway, listen, the trick when you're working with any sort, so so sugar, sucrose, table sugar, right, has a number of different functions.
+
+[28:48] So uh one of them obviously is sweetness. And the the thing about sucrose is is that of all of the sweetness things that you can do, get used, it is the cleanest. Clean, right? Almost every other sweetener, either like a uh you know, natural or artificial, has some form of bitterness. Excuse me.
+
+[29:11] Some or some form of alternate flavor. It's not kind of pure clean sweetness. So there's there's that. You're almost always dealing with like all like flavors that go along with it. So you can either use those flavors to your advantage or not, right?
+
+[29:26] And when something has what is in general considered to be an off-putting taste, so I, you know, stevia, I mean, I you're being very kind to it by saying uh licorice. It's got like kind of to me, kind of like kind of bitter metallic notes in it that I find unpleasant. And by the way, you should test that with other people because not everyone has the same, especially two things that uh have bitterness in them. Um, bitterness has a much wider range, not just of perception in the terms of strength. Like, so with sugar, people are like, that's tea sweet, or that's tea dry.
+
+[29:59] It's the same person could think that one thing is too sweet, and then another person could think it's not sweet enough, but they both kind of agree on what sweetness is. With bitterness, it's not just a level of bitterness, but like some people, like for instance, I am uh don't have uh a strong reaction to prop, the bitter thing that they do when they test to see if you're a super taster or not, right? Whereas someone else sees that as intensely bitter, right? I I think that broccoli rob is bitter but not intensely bitter, and there's other bitter compounds that maybe I perceive more than let's say you do. So whenever you're dealing with something that has bitter notes, you want to make sure that you test it with a wide range of people, right?
+
+[30:40] So um, so you have that. So any alternative sweetener is gonna have these uh off notes. Now, something similar to what people do when they're kind of compounding gluten-free flours, is instead of just using one thing to replace wheat flour, they use a range of things, and they hope that by averaging this range of things, that you're not gonna notice the extreme beanie taste of let's say um uh you know, uh black-eyed pea flour or or whatever, right? Because you're and you're not gonna notice kind of like the textural hit you take if you use pure rice. So they average a lot of things together by using these blends, and that's one of the reasons you see kind of these blends in gluten-free flowers.
+
+[31:20] And the same is true for sweeteners, right? So you might want to look into other uh diabetic friendly sweeteners, non-caloric sweeteners, like for instance, monk fruit. Now, I happen to like the sweetness of uh monk fruit. It comes with other flavors, but to me, those other flavors aren't gross, they're tea-like, right? So if you have any sort of affinity for like um Chinese herbal teas, right, then you will like monk uh monk fruit or there's a bunch of different, you know, uh mormortica, what is it?
+
+[31:59] I forget the actual title, the actual you know name of it. But um so if you look at that, you'll see that like that has sweetness and some other flavors. So maybe a combination of stevia and monk fruit can help t tamp down some of those notes that when you use stevia only for the sweetness. Now on the second problem with preservation, so uh this is some experiments that I I would really like to run for various reasons, right? But when you're when you want to do a lemon juice and you want it to keep for a long time, I think the best thing to do is to make a cordial with it, right?
+
+[32:36] So you clarify it and yes I think you should buy a spinzall to clarify it or you know whatever centrifuge you're gonna use, but whatever. You don't have to you can you can do freeze thaw you could do um quick agar you could do any of these things because it's not going to be fresh right but now then when you make a cordial you save the peels you boil the peels with the um with the the juice the clarified juice and the sugar right now and then it becomes stable. So the sugar makes it stable because you know it's now at a simple syrup level and it's not gonna kind of spoil uh especially with the sugar and the acidity. The problem is is it and that the taste stays relatively stable for a long time, long time, like months. The problem is, and it tastes good, is I don't know if the sugar is necessary to the process.
+
+[33:26] So it's pretty simple test. It's just I haven't had the time to run it of just boiling just boiling the clarified juice on its own without the sugar, right? And seeing whether or not I get the state same stability, whether the reactions are the same that give that same stability. If it's just the heat that's necessary, well then you could just use boiled clarified lemon juice as your um lemon in it, and it's not gonna taste like fresh lemon, right? But especially with the peel, it'll have the notes of a good cordial, which are delicious, but not the same as fresh.
+
+[33:59] What do you guys think? Does this make sense? Yep. All right. Uh all right.
+
+[34:04] Hey, uh Nastasia, Dave, and Matt in the booth. If in fact you are still in a booth, but we already addressed this, right? This person accuses you, Micah in Minnesota, uh, Matt accuses you of being Matt on the couch. I'm not on the couch. That's a dirty lie.
+
+[34:20] All right. I'm in a regular chair. I'm sorry. It's not an impressive place to be. Well, we again, for all we know, we know you're a liar, so you may be on a couch.
+
+[34:30] You may be on a couch in your chonies because you're a well-known liar. You've lied to us about the stevia. Everything. I'm sipping up my stevia drink right now. I know it.
+
+[34:40] It is a gurgling stevia. Love it. I know. It's just wow, so weird. Anyway.
+
+[34:46] Uh hope you're doing well and staying safe in these crazy times. Uh Dave, you recently addressed someone's question regarding culturing cream to make butter and said that one should use buttermilk and not yogurt. Why is that? I know buttermilk is traditional/slash standard, but there are other options. I've used yogurt quite successfully myself and more experimentally, Koji.
+
+[35:06] By the way, we gotta have uh Rich on soon because uh his book is probably gonna be coming out, and it's a good time for people to be experimenting with Koji at home since everyone's home. Uh just curious as to why you so firmly recommend buttermilk. Thanks for continuing to put on the show, Mike in Minnesota. Well, Micah, uh, you're right. I mean, like, I just recommend it because it's traditional, and um I'm a huge believer in experimenting, so experiment with whatever you want.
+
+[35:32] You may think you're totally right. I think, but if you want more of a traditional cultured butter flavor, and by the way, John, uh, for those of you that don't know, John was the source of all my recommendations in Belgium. So, because of his recommendations of where to go, is why I own the uh HVD A57 uh Liege waffle maker. It's why I have a stockpile of the world's greatest mustard from uh Ghent in my fridge right now. So uh John might have some opinions on color.
+
+[36:02] Yeah, yeah, Nastasi, you love that mustard too, right? Yeah, but I don't know what to put it on now that I'm not eating meat. Cheese. Really? Yeah.
+
+[36:12] It's it's also it's great on cheese. So it's this mustard, by the way, is made only with uh this mustard's made only with mustard seed, brown mustard seed, uh, water, vinegar, and salt, and that's it. That's it, right? So it's all about the kind of purity of the thing. And so I I got back from the museum.
+
+[36:32] We'll talk more about the museum and COVID in a second, but I got back from the museum my wet grinder, and so as soon as uh John and I are allowed to hang out in the same room together, we're gonna take on for cooking issues uh listeners, uh, the task of recreating the Ghent mustard. Why would you do that? It's like because you can't go get it. Yeah, but like, okay. What do you mean why would I why why would you try to make something that you love?
+
+[36:59] Why would you try to make it? Why would you try to make something that you really want to have but can't get? I find it. I don't think that this is surprising. I would be like, Nastasia, if you said, why are you learning to make Twinkies?
+
+[37:14] I'd say, you're right. I can just go to the store and buy Twinkies. But I'm saying, like, it's almost insulting because these people like it's their life's work. And you're like, I'm just gonna do it and hopefully I get it right. And you know.
+
+[37:30] Is that what I said? I'm just gonna do it and hope I get it. I would rather say that I have a wicked and I've been thoroughly researching the technology of mustard making. Just go to Belgium every year and get it. That would be like the amount of time, which is money that you're gonna spend trying to recreate this is probably about the same as a flight to Belgium.
+
+[37:53] Well, listen, listen. I mean, like, in between getting my monocle repaired and like going to my you know, cigar shop. I will I will plan my yearly trip to Ghent so that I can pick up a jar of mustard. I'll have the plane land in Ghent, I'll have my driver go get the mustard while I wait and and eat tea sandwiches in my learjet styles. Or to make mustard.
+
+[38:21] Anyway. Yeah, one of those suggestions is reasonable. Uh we got about 10 minutes to go. Alright. Uh, this is Prashant.
+
+[38:33] What? Well, hold on. This is Prashant from Florida. I have a question on how to store fresh made pasta. I thought you'd enjoy this, Nastasia.
+
+[38:40] Because you hate fresh made pasta. Hey, hey, the one of them's gnocchi. That was the one you said maybe was different. Potato. Currently I make the pasta and uh freeze it overnight and then uh throw the throw them frozen into the boiling water.
+
+[38:55] But the two times I did this with both fettuccine and yucky, the pasta ends up sticking and becoming a massive clump while cooking. The fettuccine got stuck because of the way I put it in the freezer. They did he did the ness. Uh I think it's a heat. Prashant, yeah.
+
+[39:07] Uh he did the ness, right? Um, but I was more careful with the gnocchi and spaced them out to make sure they did not stick. I had similar results uh both times. So, what's the best way to store pasta uh to prevent it from sticking? Also, can I freeze leftover pasta dough for later?
+
+[39:23] I mean, it's slow moisture, probably. Uh I also have some bread making questions, so please let me know when Leahy is going to be on the air. I didn't want to get the questions mixed up. Okay. So I don't have a lot of experience freezing fresh pasta.
+
+[39:38] But I fresh pasta and then that's it. And then make it again, and then make it again. Why do you have to freeze it? Because you it's easier to make more than you need for one night and freeze it. I don't know.
+
+[39:51] Alright, whatever. Oh, says the lady who had a whole business built around freezing pasta. That was dry pasta. Fresh pasta is not supposed to be frozen. It wasn't, but it yours was a completely different from that.
+
+[40:05] You weren't you you're you were par cooking and freezing in I IQ IQFing, right? We had one, we had one fresh pasta that was frozen, and again, a technique that took decades to get down, and that's the secret, and I don't know how they did it, but what kind of fresh pasta was it? It was the fettuccine. The f oh and did you have any problems with it sticking? No.
+
+[40:29] But again, because these people worked for decades on how to do it right, and they are not telling anybody. Yeah, okay, okay, fine. Listen, uh, I'll tell you, like the way that uh smaller companies, like for instance, DiPalos, uh, when they freeze their um, when they freeze their pasta, they either use like uh a dusting of very coarse semolina or they use a or a cornmeal, depending on on which one they're doing. Um, on, for instance, their their ravioli, they they dust that stuff with that so that when it's in the freezer and it's single layer, right? So it's single layer and it's like coated with that stuff so that it won't stick to each other.
+
+[41:12] The theory, I guess, being that as long as it's frozen fast enough and you're not getting a lot of moisture migration out, uh, those little things act like babies or ball bearings and get it, but that's not gonna help you with fettuccine. That might help you with the with the gnocchi, but you're really I mean, the problem with gnocchi too is that I mean, I don't know about you, but you're freezing it before you boil it, or you're gonna parboil it and then reboil it when you're done. I mean, there's gonna be a lot of issues with moisture migration. So if you keep everything completely separate on a tray, give it a little bit of some ball bearings to roll around with, and then hard freeze it. I'm what I'm thinking is is that when you're repackaging them into servings, you're letting them um, what's the word I'm looking for?
+
+[41:53] You're letting them uh uh kind of thaw a little bit. And if there's any sort of thaw, you're gonna get moisture migration, they're gonna stick together unless you've got the little babies to separate them. Bebies meaning stuff like cornmeal or semolina. But then on a fettuccine, that's gonna ruin the texture of it if you have these kind of coarse garbages sticking around, don't you think, Nastasia? Yeah.
+
+[42:13] Yeah. So I don't know how you're gonna do it with the you know here's the here's what you do. I think also you're putting your fettuccine in way too wet. So you like you want to lay your fettuccine out on uh one of those uh like drying things, like you know, and then wait until it's just at the point where if you were gonna bend it, it would snap. Like just before then, when the outside's real kind of hard, not hard, but like really um, you know, almost semi-dry, then you could nest it and freeze it.
+
+[42:46] And I don't think the fettuccine is gonna stick together. But I think you're you're not waiting long enough before you um you do it. What do you think, Stuzz? You don't care, you don't want to give any advice because you're like, you should spend your whole life working on it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:00] Or I just wants to make some freaking fettuccine. Great, make it, cook it, make it, cook it, make it. That's not the question. Make it, make it, make it. Now, I can we can all agree that Big Night's a great movie, can't we?
+
+[43:13] Yeah. That's what I should be watching while quarantining. Oh, you should watch Big Night. For anyone that has not seen Big Night, you need to stop what you're doing. You've already listened to enough of us for the day.
+
+[43:28] Go watch it. It's it's uh it's Tucci and Shaloube. And isn't Isabella Rossellini in it? There's all kinds of it's it's an amazing show. It's an amazing show.
+
+[43:39] And Tony Shaloube plays the the older brother, who's kind of like the the younger brother's the boss, right? And they're they have this Italian restaurant in uh where is it? Somewhere on the East Coast. And Tony Shaloub only wants to make stuff that's true to his roots. That's all he cares about.
+
+[43:59] He doesn't want to make Americanized 50s uh like food right and so like this person asks for what is what do they ask for someone asked for like cheese on their seafood risotto or so someone else asks for like starch on like one starch on top of another starch like they wanted like risotto and pasta and Shalub's like I won't do it and Tucci comes in and this is where Nastasi gets and I both do this all the time Tucci just goes in to him and goes make it make it make it because just make what the customer wants make it make it right it's like it's it's it's just a fantastic fantastic movie for anyone that for anyone that loves food or loves Tucci or Shalub or loves um sticking to your guns even when it hurts right Stas? Yep Classics in the movie field John you've seen that movie right yeah yeah not in a while but I've seen it do you also like it or no yeah I enjoyed it didn't dislike it yeah didn't dislike it oh my god all right wait so one more one more thing so we got uh well we'll do this we'll do this next time someone sent in from Yahoo Mail wants to know more red liquid intelligence I don't have the name of the person who uh wrote it in but wants us to talk more about the spinz all on the air I'm happy to do that we should uh we should have a uh Stas like you and I should talk about things to do with centrifuges maybe next week as like a whole section a demo on the face on the Instagram live with that. So maybe we could do that too. Yeah. By the way, if you have any spinzall questions, John's gonna be your go-to person for the customer uh for customer service.
+
+[45:45] Right? Also, Andy John as in jeans. But you know, we should also just get John at BookerIndax.com because no one's listening to me, probably. So that if they email us a J-O-H-N at Booker Index. Oh, yeah, by the way.
+
+[46:00] So back when Mo Mofad had two Johns working, we had John Hutt, who we call John the Hutt, and John, who you're now listening to, whose name is spelled Gene, but it's pronounced John, so we will call him Gene John. I don't think he enjoyed that, Nastasia. Am I right, John? Well, I'm just saying we should get that email address from because you know that people are stupid, and so they're gonna email J-O-H-N at Booker and Dax. So I hope you guys enjoy that.
+
+[46:27] Nastasia just called you stupid. It's J-E-A-A-N. Why not and why not filter all the John the J-O-H-N's uh right to the trash as well? No, because then we're gonna get bad reviews and Twitter comments saying John never answered me. I mean, I know people do that.
+
+[46:48] So it's J-E-A-N at Bookerandax.com. That's J-E-A-N at Bookerin Dax.com. Uh all right. So so we have a question about uh cooking uh like vacuum sealing cooking proteins, which I guess we can we can handle that next time uh if if you if you want. And uh also email me and let us know if you liked our Instagram live or what you had changed during the per the person who wants us, the person who wants us to talk more about um spinzalls, uh, put as a side note, they had been making uh black garlic in uh in an excaliber, and they were also heat-aging garum in an excalibur, which is the dehydrator that we use uh at 141 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[47:34] Uh and they insulated it because it was in their garage, but they used uh this is an interesting fact because I've always wondered. They ran it for 10 weeks solid and it used 182 kilowatts, uh kilowatt hours of power. Now, in New York State, at our current electricity price, that is $30 or $3 a week. So if you want to know how much it's costing you to run and you live in New York and pay New York electricity prices, if you want to know how much it's costing you to run an Excalibur dehydrator day and night, it's about $3 a week, which I thought was interesting. To me, anyway, only to me.
+
+[48:13] Yeah. See? See? John, that's why I like having you on because Astasi doesn't care. You care about things like this.
+
+[48:19] See what I mean? Uh all right. So time for classic city of the field. All right, now we have uh listen, I might do this because I was looking through my books, uh, and I have I have many books. Uh not as many as I would like, but you know, I I haven't I haven't been buying books heavy for like well over a decade just because my my apartment is pretty full.
+
+[48:42] Uh but I love books. Uh we should actually have people send in like their suggestions for books that we should look at or get anyway. Uh but I realized that I have two categories of books that are classics. One are, well, I have many, but the two that I'm gonna talk about today are books that I think people might actually want to look at, and then books that are classics, like for instance, uh Kant's Critique of Judgment, uh, that uh no one is ever gonna want to read. So I thought I'd talk briefly about uh both kinds.
+
+[49:13] Uh and so for the first one, I'm going to talk about a book that came out that if you looked at it nowadays, you would say, oh, you know, yeah, I've seen a million books like that. But when this book came out, there was nothing like that. So and also anyone who's listening who is familiar with culture in the United Kingdom, this is going to be a very well known person and book, but not so much in the United States. And so, for instance, uh, John, what do you know about uh Hugh uh Fernley Whittingstall? Anything?
+
+[49:44] A lot? Love him. Yeah. You love it, right? But why is he so so he is a celebrity chef in uh in England, and he had a he owns a place called the River Cottage and has a series of TV shows and books.
+
+[49:59] And the first one came out in 2001 called the River Cottage Cookbook and complete revelation. Now, for some reason, not as famous in the US. Why, John? Why is he not as famous in the US? Even for British standards, like we got your Ramsey's over here, we got your you know, your Olivers over here, even your Heston Blumenthal's over here.
+
+[50:18] But not a lot of people know about the the Witting Stall here. Why do you think that is? I really have no idea. It doesn't make any sense because his meat book is one of the best books out there. I love like the little uh mini series of books on making alcohol or Prajutra or you know, dry aging hams or on herbs or things like that.
+
+[50:35] I don't know, like the whole river cottage everything is great. He just needs to be more popular here. By the way, uh friend of the show, Naomi Devlin, wrote the River Cottage gluten free uh book and is a member of kind of uh that collective, so shout out to her. Um so I had no idea who this guy was. Now you gotta remember that in the in he so he's famous before he had the river cottage, he did and has done over the years, a bunch of kind of crazy publicity stunts in the UK.
+
+[51:05] So in like '97, I think, 1997 or 98 on TV, he cooked uh a woman's placenta and served it at a party to her friends and family. And kind of, yeah, it let's just say people in the UK, you know, famously buttoned up people in the UK, not too pleased by this. You know what I mean? By the kind of like the placenta rama. And this was before kind of there was that like thank God short-lived thing where people were making uh cheese out of uh human um uh breast milk.
+
+[51:41] Not because there's anything wrong with it, just because it's such a precious commodity that to make cheese out of it seems incredibly disrespectful. But um for you know, for those of you that you know have been around having to, you know, get that for kids. It's like the idea of using it for cheese is just to me, bananas. But anyway, so he cooked up this placenta, had it had a huge thing. More recently, like in the 2010 or 2011, I think he cooked dog on the air.
+
+[52:09] He uh, you know, because he was trying to show how hypocritical it is that we won't eat things like dogs, but we will eat things like pigs. So he's done a lot of things that are kind of on the edge that way, provocative, let's shall we say. But um, in the late 90s, he bought uh this place, the River Cottage, and in 2001, I think right around when the show was coming out, or or maybe even before, he came out with the first of the River Cottage cookbooks. And at the time, when you you look at it. I have the uh first English edition of it.
+
+[52:41] So not I don't did they, John, did they ever publish that one in the US, the original River Cottage has a US edition? Do you know? I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure. So anyway, I have the original UK edition of it. And when this book came out, I I saw it used uh at the Strand.
+
+[52:56] So I used to, so Strand a used cookbook store in the in New York City, and I used to troll it just looking for books back when everything there, they weren't searching prices on the internet, so everything was just half pro half of half off the whatever the cover price was. So I think I paid $10 for it, and it was only uh probably a year or two old when I got it. And it the book itself was a complete revelation. First of all, no one at that time had done this kind of uh like back to simple thing. So he's pre-dating, you know, he's pre-dating when um what's his name?
+
+[53:28] Pollen became Food Jesus and talked about everyone going simple on everything. He predated a lot of that. And it is true that he comes from a rich family of landed gentry. His mom is a famous like flower designer who's won all these awards at the Chelsea Flower Show, right? So, you know, yes, it's a rather elitist thing for him to say you can go back to nature and raise your own pigs and do all and you know, the quote unquote simpler life, which is you know, obviously something that only someone with a good deal of privilege can do nowadays, but man was he good at it, right?
+
+[54:00] So, first of all, when you look at his books, like he had that kind of that kind of blown out color, like kind of uh, you know, the matte paper before it became popular. This is before like you'd see those kind of sh uh shots in Dave Chang's cookbook when it made a huge splash, like shots of like the dirty radishes that he's grown, you know, at the cottage, like just these kind of sh like like reality, like natural light shots, the kind of paper, the look, the feel, all amazing. Recipes also good. And the reason I bought the book at the Strand is he he had a series of pigs he raised, and he had a picture of this pig outside running around doing piggy things, and over it in white lines, he had drawn the cuts that he was going to cut the pig into after he slaughtered it on the image of the live pig. And when I saw that in the strand, I was like, oh my God, oh Jesus!
+
+[54:59] And I bought it immediately. I became a huge instant fan of uh this guy's work. So like it is impossible to imagine today's cookbooks, the way they look. I guess an early also kind of, although it was, I think black and white, is cooking by hand had that matte paper back in the day, but a very early harbinger of kind of the way food styling, cookbooks, and kind of the mentality around uh a return to old-style ingredients would look today. You can see it in 2001 in the River Cottage cookbook.
+
+[55:33] So please try to look at it with 20, you know, the eyes of a someone from 20 years ago. Then the second, real quick, because uh you know no one's gonna want to spend that much time with it. If you really like dry academic books that have had a huge influence on um thought and culture, yet literally like 10 people have maybe read it, check out Stephen uh Nissenbaum's uh 1980 or 1981 classic, Sex, Diet and Dability in Jacksonian America. Now, in uh before 1980, right, Sylvester Graham of Graham Cracker uh fame, right, and kind of graham bread fame was a very fringe historical figure that not a lot of people had paid attention to. But uh, and since that time, it's almost impossible, since since Stephen Nissenbaum wrote this book, it's almost impossible to talk about a history of fad dieting, nutrition, um, kind of the link between thoughts on food, sexuality, morality, and physical decline, right?
+
+[56:40] Uh, it's almost impossible to talk about the history of that in America without talking about Sylvester Graham. And the whole reason for it is this one book, Sex, Diet and Dobility in Jacksonian America, where um Nissenbaum draws the link, right, between Sylvester Graham, this physi famous Philadelphia physician Benjamin Rush, and ideas that happened just prior to the American Revolution in France, and the entire shift of a culture where it used to be if you wanted to feel strong, you did things that were robust. If you wanted to feel strong, you ate things that were strong. Kind of a kind of an additive effect to this idea that human beings have only a certain amount of energy, and that by, for instance, overextending your sexual energy would cause you to decline and die. All of these kinds of kind of crazy conservation that we only have a certain amount of stuff, and you have to be careful about what you consume in that way, really stems from this era in American culture.
+
+[57:39] And this book really points out, connects a lot of the dots that are now seen as kind of just, yeah, everybody knows that. But before this person wrote this book, um, it was kind of hard to connect those dots. So if you really want to get an idea of how we think to how we got to the way we think today about uh kind of food and health, right? Which I think is an incredibly fraught subject. We can do an entire cooking issues on that someday if you want.
+
+[58:03] Go and check out, although I know you won't, uh, Sex, Diet, and Dability in Jacksonian America by Steven Nissenbaum. What do you guys think? You read that one, John? I have not. Great.
+
+[58:15] Fantastic. If you like dry historical things, fantastic. Deserves to be more widely credited, if not read. Anyway, uh, and we'll get to the questions on vacuum packing and other things next week. Tune in by the way to the MoFed.
+
+[58:28] Also, uh, our love out to all of the people dealing. Obviously, like we're all dealing with it, but Corona, people I wish people would write in, let us know how they're doing. Um, let us know how they're how they're doing. I mean, I know it's it's tough. We didn't talk about it today.
+
+[58:43] I was gonna talk about um, I was gonna talk about the incentives and how they relate to the the incentives that just came out yesterday and the day before and how they relate to the restaurant industry. But maybe I'll wait a week to see how they are actually going to shake down. But I know that you guys are all at home right now instead of doing what you want to be doing, which is cooking for other people and hanging out with other people. So I hope you can stay strong. I hope you can spend some time learning things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to learn when you're at work, uh, either whether it's recipes, whether it's techniques, um, whether it's, you know, whatever, math, philosophy.
+
+[59:20] Hopefully, you can put this time to good use if you can't be out actually um helping people or doing things. Anyway, stay strong. Cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:37] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:54] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:00:15] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Ben to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at Ben to Table.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off and HRN gets $10. Dave Arnold dropped from the call.
+
+[0:56] Why can just no one make a program that just does this? Ah! This was the good one. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you.
+
+[1:16] Pre-recorded from my house on the lower east side. We got Nastasia Lopez in Stanford, Connecticut. We got Matt, uh not in the booth. He's in some booth. He's hopefully not in his chonies.
+
+[1:26] He promises he's not somewhere in the great state of Rhode Island. And Promise. Promise, no chonies. Remember, it's a no chony show. Uh no chonis on.
+
+[1:35] John, spelled Gene, so Gene John from Booker and Dax is is on. He can hear what we're saying now, but cannot talk because he's we can the only live listener. The one, the one live listener. So no one cares because they're not listening live anyway, but uh we we have now spent 15 minutes trying to get four people to whatever, whatever. Talk about it later.
+
+[1:59] The mechanism of recording. You'd think in this day and age we could do it, but no. But we have John, if you have any questions for us though, uh hit me up in the chat. Remember, uh for next time, you can chat us stuff live, but you can't talk to us until we figured that out if and when we ever do. Um today's special guest, though, and I I pray that we have not lost him.
+
+[2:32] Ben, are you there? Oh, oh my God. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, yes? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:42] All right. Hi, yes, I am here. All right. I have preemptively needed myself due to child noise. But I was about to flip the computer out of window.
+
+[2:53] Yeah, it was about to be, you know. The funny thing is I could throw my computer out the window now in the time of COVID, and people just give it a six foot wide berth around it, walk around it, and it'll be still be there. Yeah, it'll still be there. No one's that's the thing, it's like anyway. So we have as our special guest on the podcast today, Ben from Bend to Table.com.
+
+[3:14] Why don't you why don't you introduce, in case, in case they don't know, they haven't listened to the past couple of promos we've done, you're um sponsoring the cooking issues right now, and you have um kind of an online subscription service where what's the word you like to use? You cu curate kind of high-end pantry related items, or like could eat right now, like a lot of the canned fish kind of stuff, or or like kind of cool pantry stuff, very high quality stuff, send it out to people so that they can kind of take advantage of these maybe harder to get uh interesting products. Would you say it's accurate? That is very accurate. Said by a man who's been reading uh uh promo copy we've sent over.
+
+[3:56] Uh actually I have to say this. I never read any promo copy before I actually read it live. Perfect. Here's so like I s like if you if you're ever in the studio with us, uh what happens is Nastasia starts yelling at me. She preemptively gets angry with me, like about 10 minutes before the end of the radio uh show, and then starts yelling at me about how I have to do this thing that I had no idea I had to do, then hands me the copy, then gets mad at me because we will have 10 minutes of argument over the wording of the copy that I've never read before.
+
+[4:29] Then I read it and then it's over. Is it but is it that's Matt, back me up on this is how it works. Uh yeah, Kat Johnson's also often involved, but yeah, that's the basic lay of the land. Yeah, is she on she's not on, right? We can't we can't.
+
+[4:44] She's not on. No, no, she's not our secret listener right now. All right. So that that's a that's a great description. Um we are exactly a monthly subscription for amazing shelf stable pantry ingredients um from things like staples and you know, the the sort of rancho gordo and gichy boy mil type staples to interesting spreads and spices from places around the world and local.
+
+[5:11] Um, and I'm coming to you from New Haven, Connecticut. Yeah, New Haven. I believe you know well. I do. New Haven is the town, New Haven is the town that once everyone leaves it, they're like, not so bad.
+
+[5:24] I like it's like you know, Nastasia says that I'm the new haven of uh bosses. When people have worked for me, they hate it, and then as soon as they leave, they're like, well, Dave wasn't so bad. So Nastasia's just waiting to leave so that she can feel that way. What do you think? Okay, yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:45] You have to work with them every friggin' day. Right now. Yeah, but like I I like it's also the same with partners. It's like, you know, you have partners, partners are terrible, but then you get different partners and you're like, oh, you know what? That is true.
+
+[5:55] That is true. It wasn't so bad. And that has actually happened to you. That is happening to you. Let's not get into that.
+
+[6:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was like, you know, uh, yeah. So I'm proud to be the New Haven of partners slash, you know, bosses slash friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave, he wasn't so bad.
+
+[6:14] The nice thing about New Haven really is kind of New Haven used to be, so for those of you that don't know, New Haven is kind of midway up the Connecticut shoreline. So you kind of think that the east coast of the United States is kind of a north-south situation, but in the Connecticut area, it's really kind of it's an east-west situation. Even though you're driving on I-95 north, you're really just traveling east-west. So Nastasia's Heidi Hole in Connecticut is all the way kind of to the west on the New York side. And New Haven is pretty much spot in the in the middle.
+
+[6:48] Um, and it used to be one of the most beautiful towns. You know, it was known as the as the Elm City. There were elms everywhere lining the streets, beautiful elm trees. And for those of you that don't know what an Elm looks like, because there's not that many around anymore, they have this beautiful American Elms anyway, this beautiful kind of vase shape. And in New Haven, we had a beer called Elm City Beer.
+
+[7:11] Everything is Elm City in New Haven because of uh Elm. They have a lot of beautiful old houses. Um what happened is is Dutch Elm Disease came in, wiped out all the elms. There was a lot of um kind of social blight. There was a when I-95 and the connectors got put through New Haven, they cut off whole neighborhoods and shafted whole neighborhoods, dropping them into poverty.
+
+[7:34] It's a whole thing. But New Haven is one of these cities that is always rising, it's always rising somehow. I don't understand how it's been, but for the past at least 30 years, it's been rising somehow, and yet here it is. Am I right about this, Ben? Am I I got New Haven pretty much right?
+
+[7:50] That sounds pretty accurate. Um it certainly has risen somewhat. Um we were here, my wife and I were were here uh 15 years ago, and then having moved back recently, it is definitely uh on the seems on the upswing. Yeah, I mean I think just in that timeline. And the the scale of New Haven is nice, right?
+
+[8:09] So like you can walk into the middle of the town area, you can live in a house and walk into the middle of the town area. So it's kind of it's a nice scale. It's a good, it's a good place, it's right on a train line. Uh the food and bar scene, I was there right before the um quarantine happened. Uh my partner at the bar, Don and I were doing a class at Yale, and um and uh yeah, it's it seems like it seems like it's happening.
+
+[8:35] It seems like it's cool. It's good stuff. It it punches above its weight, is is how I like to describe it. Yeah. You know, when in the 90s when I was there playing in bands in New Haven, we were one of the few kind of New Haven bands.
+
+[8:47] We sorry, uh Yale bands that also played with New Haven bands. Uh there was a couple, a couple of bands like that when we were there. And everyone was like, Yeah, New Haven, it's gonna, it's gonna happen. Like, you know, the whole southern Connecticut, like, the the whole music scene's gonna no never happen. The Southern Connecticut music scene never we were never, you know, we're gonna be the new Athens, Georgia.
+
+[9:10] No. No. That's not what happened. Anyway. Not what happened.
+
+[9:15] Yeah. Anyways, all right. So uh so what do you want to talk about, Ben? What do you you're here? Do you have anything to say?
+
+[9:21] You want to answer some questions? You want me to read some questions so you can answer them? If if you want, I uh, you know, don't go quite into the uh haven't gotten into nitro muddling just yet, but um do you have a supply of liquid nitrogen? That's something you can't send to people's houses, liquid nitrogen. No, it is not.
+
+[9:40] No, I I tend to go a bit more I guess classic on the cocktails, but would would love to get into XCON and try some of the some of these out when they're uh when you're back open. Yeah I would love for I would love to be back open. We're back with with with uh Ben Simon from Ben to Table. Now you go by you go by Ben just professionally or do you go by Benjamin in the real life or what do you do? I I go by Ben professionally and in the real life.
+
+[10:17] Oh nice you know how some people when they have like a when they have like a a name that's part of their company they'll use a slightly different version in the real life to try to keep their stuff separate. And I've never understood that. That seems like a garbage separation to me. Yeah, I agree. It's also like a big part of this is you kind of gotta buy into me at like my tastes.
+
+[10:40] And if you don't, you know, if if if if you don't see me as a as a real person who cooks and who you respect, uh, you know, not really gonna be the value proposition for you. So try try to go as real as possible. Nice. So now we were going back to kind of what you what you see, you you find these things. So we I cooked a bunch of this stuff that uh that you sent over, and some of some of the stuff I had already known, uh, some of it I I didn't, but um so where are you finding all this stuff?
+
+[11:09] You just like going down to to Charleston and hanging out with the the Geechee Boy Mills people, or like what how does this work? Actually, I had a trip uh planned that I had to cancel because of the COVID, unfortunately. But um so some of the stuff are things where so I moved to New Haven two years ago from San Francisco, and so part of the stuff is things that I used to be able to access quite easily, and then when I got here, sort of had a like, oh I I can't get this anymore without really searching it out. And I know a lot of people are in a similar situation, so part of it was thinking, oh, there's there's stuff that like rancho gordo beans that I used to be able to just walk to my corner fancy bodega and pick up that I would love to be able to help other people have easier access to, and then sort of expanding from there to things like Geechee Boy, which I actually um sort of tried out as I was thinking about this concept. Um I had initially been thinking Anson Mills, but they're sort of less well set up for retail, essentially.
+
+[12:13] Um and then other things were my sort of other other life and and career has been working on advocacy campaigns around the world, and so I've spent a lot of time in a lot of different places, and so thinking about amazing things I've had there that I could source either from a Spain, a Peru, a Greece, or where I could find interesting domestic producers and help them to find more customers and really help to try and find a way to help smaller producers who are working generally more sustainably, generally producing more delicious food to get to more people. Yeah. Cool. By the way, I've been cooking most of this stuff in my in my rice cooker. It has come to my attention that not everyone has a rice cooker.
+
+[13:04] And I think that that's fine because not everyone needs to have all these crazy things. But I think rice cooker is one of the things that people don't necessarily know that they really want if they don't have one. I don't have bear in mind, I don't have an Instapot. A lot of people have Instapots. I'd not have an Instapot.
+
+[13:19] I own a pressure cooker and a rice cooker. Is an Instapot any good as a as a rice cooker? Personally, I don't use it for rice, but I love it for the grits, actually, because you don't have to you just put it in and then it's done, basically. And you start that you don't have to do the whole stirring during and it comes out pretty much perfectly. Yeah, but I do that in my rice cooker.
+
+[13:42] I do that in my Zojirushi induction rice cooker. If you're ever gonna get, like, if you're ever gonna get married, or if you're just rich, or if you have someone who's rich who's gonna give you like a really nice gift, like uh ask for the top of the line Zoji Rushi rice cooker. I know that in other countries there are brands that are even more high-flying, but in the United States, the the Zoji Rushi uh like uh neurofuzzy logic in induction rice cookers are ridiculous. They are ridiculous. They never burn anything ever.
+
+[14:17] I once kept rice hot for uh a week and a half in one to see whether the taste would change in a way that I thought was interesting. Spoiler, it didn't. Um, but like it didn't burn, it didn't get messed up. I mean, those rice cookers, the Zoji Ruji rice cookers, are crazy. So I do my beans in the rice cooker, and I do my uh I do grits in the rice cooker, milk, no stirring, no breaking, no scorching, which is fantastic, right?
+
+[14:46] Um anyway, so I love it. But again, I don't have a lot of experience or any experience with the Instapot, so I don't know whether or not you know, an Instapot is a good substitute for the neurofuzzy logic Zojirushi induction rice cooker. But who knows? Who knows? I mean, it certainly probably doesn't have the programming that the Zojirushi does for rice.
+
+[15:06] So, like if you care about doing like brown rice, semi-brown rice, sushi rice, uh, you know, kanji, and getting them on the nose every time. I'm sure the Zojirushi is gonna be better than the Instapot for that, but I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, the the Instant Pot settings are mostly kind of nonsense, I think. Like I just used set the minutes based on how long it should take, as opposed to, you know, using the soup setting or whatever, which is meaningless.
+
+[15:35] Yeah, I also use the I I sometimes even use my rice cooker for reheating uh soups and stews and stuff like that. You just punch it on the reheat. I mean, that thing is ridiculous. I would say that, you know, I've had mine for oh, I don't know, uh 17 years, 16 years, and it's still going strong. Every once in a while it'll die on me.
+
+[15:57] I'll unplug it and I'll like put it on an altar for like four or five days, and then I'll plug it back in again and it'll work again. The rice gods have smiled on me with my rice cooker. I remember when Booker was uh very young, so Booker's 18 now. When he was very young, he had a bunch of sensory issues about um music, specifically music coming on. And so he wouldn't allow, because it's a Japanese piece of kitchen equipment, it's got some goofy tune that it plays when it's done making the rice.
+
+[16:29] And Booker could not tolerate in other words, he would have anxiety about me making rice in anticipation of the music going off at the end of the Zoji Rushi. So I had to the I've avoided any sort of warranty. It was already past warranty at that point anyway, but I ripped it apart and ripped the speaker out of it. So I have silent Zoji Rushi, which I don't know, is that better or worse? Do you guys like the tunes that these things play?
+
+[16:54] No, that sounds great. Uh like the laundry machines that make this the happy jingle at the end. I don't I don't want to hear that. I'd much rather the silent version. That sounds like an improvement.
+
+[17:04] I mean, like, if you I mean, as a manufacturer of equipment, I mean Nastasi and I can like vouch for this, but like we could, anyone could just make a silent mode for this stuff, and it would cost literally an extra five cents. Literally an extra five cents. So for you, we're talking at like a retail, maybe it's an extra 75 cents. Do you know what I'm saying? For me, it's like five cents in retail, we're talking 75 cents.
+
+[17:28] And then you could just be like, you know what? No, I don't need to hear that. Wouldn't that be great? I mean, I think you guys should make a version of the Searzole that plays a jingle every time you boot it up or turn it off. And then charge extra for Yeah, charge extra for that.
+
+[17:41] I think it'd be easier with the center dude. Oh my god. So, like the um we I remember we had a bunch of people when we were first making Sears alls, and they were like, Can you can you like can you like make them different colors? Can you like put like rate can you put racing stripes on them? Can you do and we're like, uh no.
+
+[18:02] You idiot. It gets super freaking hot. It's glowing red. How am I supposed to paint it? You know, you know what I mean?
+
+[18:11] It's like people just have a fundamental lack of understanding about how this is working, right, Nastasia? That was one person and he was an idiot. But the good news is he was a person with power. So, like the the great thing about life is is it only takes one person in power to make you try to you know to spend a lot of time time seeing whether or not you can add color. Look, well, look, maybe we could enamel it.
+
+[18:36] Maybe I could like pull like an enamel. I'm like, no, you can't what? No, no, the enamel will shatter and then there'll be little pieces of glass in your food. Crazy. Missed opportunity because you guys could have been like a lacrosse.
+
+[18:47] I could have had my yellow cerezol, my you know, lime green cerez all. See, I knew I was capable of thinking like a total idiot. I have it in me. Now, if we ever make a torch, those we can make different colors, those we could put some racing stripes on. Do you know what's a like an under uh like an undeveloped market?
+
+[19:06] So Jeremiah Bullfrog from not Jeremiah Stone here, but Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog. I never even learned his real last name because he just went by Jeremiah Bullfrog in Miami, friend of ours from way back from back in the French culinary days. He had someone uh take a bunch of stainless steel like EC whippers and then do hand art over the EC whippers and then clear coat over to that. Now that's cool. Customized EC whippers, those are pretty sick.
+
+[19:34] You know what I'm saying? Like that's something you could do because who lights their EC on fire? Although Nastasi and I did once. Nastassi, remember when I had to make nachos for someone at home at their desk? I wasn't with you for that.
+
+[19:45] Why? Where were you? I don't know. Anyway, so like the idea was we're going to someone's uh desk at Complex magazine at First We Feast, and they were like, You're gonna make nachos uh at the desk. And I'm like, Well, what level of crazy do you want?
+
+[20:01] And um they were like, Well, crazy. I'm like, okay, then I'm gonna walk up to their desk. I'm gonna start with dried beans, and I'm gonna make beans for the nachos at their desk while they're sitting there. And I this is totally not cool, but I put dry beans into an EC whipper with excess water and salt and garlic, and then I put I sealed it and I put a torch on the side of the Easy Whipper so that I could build the pressure up to like 45, 50 psi with heat, so that I could cook the beans in like you know, in a minute. And so like I cooked from dry beans in a minute to make the beans for the nachos, and and I had liquid nitrogen for other stuff around me.
+
+[20:44] I was I totally invaded their desk and the looks of death and murder from the from the folks like uh on either side desk of me, I've never seen that much kind of wishing I was dead from someone outside my family. You know what I mean? It was like it was crazy, but the beans were good. But it's completely unsafe to put fire onto an easy and you shouldn't do it. Um anyway, I don't even know how we got onto that.
+
+[21:07] Well, I know how we got onto that. We're talking about uh rice cookers and grits. So what I did with your grits was uh I did it. Do you do your grits with milk or not with milk? I don't I usually add a little bit of milk at the end.
+
+[21:21] But you're you're um a water for most of the time guy? Yeah, so so I would I did them a few times. I was doing them sort of fully loaded, and then tried it just with nothing but water and salt, and found that that actually like brought out more of the kind of corn, like the corininess to it that I was kind of losing a little bit with everything else. So, first thing I'll say before Dax, my second son was born, we were trying to come up with you know how you give nicknames to well, maybe you don't. Like uh often you'll give nicknames to the babies before they're born that aren't their real names that you can use as kind of slang for what before they're born.
+
+[21:55] His was corny corn, yeah. Nice corny corn. Um, but the uh I did milk when I did it. I only cooked the the grits once, but I did shrimp and grits in the rice cookers. Now, the thing with shrimp and grits is shrimp and grits is delicious but super heavy.
+
+[22:10] So I tried to lighten it up a little bit. I did uh I did milk, but not I don't think a lot of cream. I used some very nice uh shrimp bacon and just a little bit of cheese folding it in, tried to keep the the corn and the grit level high and the soupiness and the kind of lead in your stomach down to a minimum. Because I feel shrimp and grits is something that is everyone finds delicious, but it's just like a brick, it's just so heavy that if it's gonna be the primary thing that you eat, like I can't do it traditionally. It's just too much.
+
+[22:41] What do you think, Ben? Is it too much, right? I would agree. Yeah, I love it as an app. Not like gotta be lighter for the main.
+
+[22:48] Right. Because it can like traditionally it's just, oh my god. Like, I'm not, and I don't believe I'm not a general believer, by the way, that you know, like I'm not one of those guys who's like, oh, what I ate was so heavy. Oh, I don't feel good now. That's not me.
+
+[23:02] You know what I mean? But like if I would like eat the amount of shrimp and grits that I would just naturally eat if you put it in front of me, at the end I'll be like, oh my god, oh my god, shrimp and grits. But a lighter shrimp and grits with those um what are they called? Jimmy, uh the word just went out of my head. Jimmy Red grits.
+
+[23:18] Yeah, those grits are ridiculously good. Ridiculously good. Anyway, uh, let me get to some questions. Uh we had Jonathan from New Jersey write in to us uh saying, and this is just basically uh, you know, I put it out there uh I think on the show last week, and also just in general, uh, you know, we we want to hear how you guys are doing during the during the COVID. And uh he writes in big fan of the show.
+
+[23:42] Thanks for continuing to produce content during the crisis. Well, we're trying, Jonathan. I mean, we're trying. You know, it's like the we're now on Zoom, which uh we so we started with Zancaster today, went to Ringer, yes, and now now we're on Zoom, which will cut us like Nastasi, you should use Zoom all the time because it cuts you off hard after an hour. I do, and conversations I don't want to have.
+
+[24:05] It's oh nice, nice. This is a good thing to remember. We will run up against that wall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Nastasi's like, super, let's run against that wall quick.
+
+[24:15] Uh at the end of last week's show, you asked people to write in what they were doing during lockdown. As a grocery store worker, our experience is so different from many Americans uh that I thought you'd like to know. I see people posting on social media about how they're bored, stir crazy, etc. But we're still getting up and going to work every day. I'm a chef departe for a Whole Foods at the Jersey Shore, and normally my job involves coordinating food production and food safety for our salad bar, hot bar, hot bar, and other uh prepared food venues.
+
+[24:41] All of these have been shut down, and although the store is busy, our department has seen a massive revenue drop. Um we have commitments to our vendors who are continuing to deliver product that we are um uh that we are uh pre-ordered months in advance, but we now have no outlet for. I have tasked my cooks with preparing everything for us to donate to food banks, as well as preparing box lunches that we are donating to our area, uh hospital staff, police, and EMS. We are also providing family meal twice a day to our staff as an appreciation for their hard work, but also to reduce unnecessary contact with the public from standing online to purchase food during their breaks, which is a huge problem, by the way. For any of you like who are not in a city, it's like even places that are social distancing outside of their stores, it becomes kind of a free-for-all inside.
+
+[25:25] It's kind of nuts. Well, you're not in the cities. Who's John? Have you noticed that? Yeah, I've noticed it when I was at a supermarket the other week.
+
+[25:34] The manager was coming by as I was paying. He wanted to shut down the store because there were so many people in there. Yeah, but it's like well, it's like I I was in a store where like everyone was on their six-foot marker outside the store, face masked and six-foot marker, and then but you get in, and the way that they have it working, the lines are unbelievably long because those things have to be spaced out. So those things go into the shopping areas, and then they have fewer people on that are doing restock, so stocking stuff is in the aisles. So there's no way to make it through one of these stores without getting real bumped into somebody.
+
+[26:08] You know what I mean? Uh it's pretty it's pretty hardcore. Anyway, um, where was I? Uh twice a day uh during their breaks. Okay.
+
+[26:19] We've also implemented strict crowd control measures and a pre and pre-shift temperature checks for our employees. So it's like a probably a forehead temperature check, which is my worst nightmare when I used to fly to Hong Kong in China is that I would get quarantined. Uh did we tell a story about how you developed a fever on the airplane and I shoved Tylenol down your throat? Like months. It wasn't COVID, people.
+
+[26:40] Don't give me this. But remember that, Stas? Yeah, you were so angry. Well, you know, like I tell you that my biggest fear in life is flying to another country and and like getting sick, and especially in a country where back in the day they were already testing for fevers and quarantining people at the border, that you would like fly, not tell me that you have a fever until you're on the plane and then get on the plane. And so, like, you know, I'd Nastasia had like a blood Tylenol content of like 100%.
+
+[27:11] It was is like, I it's not true. I didn't overdose her on Tylenol. I did not endanger her liver. Anyway, uh, we've also implemented strict crowd control measures and pre-shift temperature checks for our employees. As a member of leadership, I've been manning the temperature station at the employee entrance as well as working the front door to limit both the total number of guests in the building as well as the density of shoppers in a given department, which is important.
+
+[27:31] I think that's where a lot of places are falling uh flat is is in that regard. Uh that's just a little bit of what's going on that people may not be aware of. Thanks again for continuing to put out episodes. I had the opportunity to visit XCON on my birthday in January. Oh, January.
+
+[27:44] Remember back in January when we used to have bars and restaurants? Um January. When we weren't going outside because it was just a little cold. Oh, January. Oh, brother.
+
+[27:55] We're like, oh yeah, it's a little nippy. Um, you know what I mean? Now we're like, oh my God. Well, well what I wouldn't do for February revenue. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:04] What I wouldn't give for some like, you know, normally, like we're hoping, everyone's hoping that we can reopen in the summer. Let's not forget, restaurant people, that like 99% of uh like of us hated the summer in New York. So some of you, like on the Jersey shore, maybe summer's great. If you live in the Hamptons, you're making all your money in the summer. But for those of you that live in New York City and have, you know, work in the industry here in New York City, like we're all like, oh my God, we're not making any money during because everybody leaves the city during the summer, right, Nastasia?
+
+[28:37] Yeah. But now we're like, now we're like, oh my God, we could reopen in the summer? I mean, I've never had so many people wish they could open in the summer. Like we opened uh existing conditions in the summer when we opened the first time, and we were all bent that we were opening during the summertime because it's such a crappy time to open, and now we're praying, praying, you know, for a for a summertime opening. Oh, let a little COVID'll do for you.
+
+[29:02] What do you guys think the odds are that we reopen? We meaning everyone, reopen in let's say June, July, and then have to close again in September. I don't even want to respond to that. I mean, I mean, I don't know. I don't even I don't I don't know.
+
+[29:29] I don't know. Anyway, I mean, I I like what seems so actually I've got a a neighbor who's an epidemiologist who's been doing a bunch of the research on this stuff, and one of the it sounds to me a little bit like what we're headed for is these sort of partial reopenings and then partial closings, where like it's not that everything will have to shut down in September necessarily, but like there will be places where there's flare-ups and those places will have to shut down. And the challenge will be how do we predict where those are, and how do we account for that and like figure out how to adapt to that? Right. But also the thing is in our business, right?
+
+[30:05] It's like there's a couple of things, right? The business needs to make money because rent, etc. etc. Um, and the staff needs to make money because they're they're people and we need to take care of the staff. Now, what the hell?
+
+[30:19] You know what I mean? Like, like there's a certain like every restaurant, every bar, right? Every like, well, food carts are one person, can be one person operation, so that's a little bit different, can be, but like every business that was built, you know, on a normal business model, is designed to operate at a certain scale and does not operate efficiently at a different scale. So you pay the rent that you're gonna pay based on the number of people that are gonna be going through your establishment, the people you can put through your establishment. The landlords know this, which is why the rents in places where more people go are more expensive, which is why you pay more for a bigger space that you can get more in, or that you have mean like because they know that this is built into the models, right?
+
+[31:06] It takes a certain staff to staff a certain size place, right? Regardless of whether they're spread out. If I'm putting, if if I'm suddenly putting 50 people into two rooms, those two rooms are designed for a hundred people, right? I still need to have extra staff because like a person who's in the front room, even though they could service all the people and do a good job of service, they no longer have a line of sight to all of their guests. And without a line of sight, it's hard to do good service, right?
+
+[31:37] So it's it's like the scales, everyone's designed for a certain scale, and then we have to kind of turn these taps off and on, and then what? People are supposed to go on their insurance and then back on Cobra and then back on their insurance and back off Cobra as we as we hire and re-fire and hire and re-fire. I mean, how is this gonna work? Do you know what I mean? Like, I have no idea.
+
+[31:57] This is this is what keeps me up. You know what I mean? I definitely understand why it keeps you up. I mean, it's just it's just banana llamas. Um anyway, uh also Capri Sun, friend of the show.
+
+[32:12] I thought he was mad at me because he bought uh uh coffee grinder, and then I you know, I'm he should know. He's like, Do you want to buy the other coffee grinder? But I was like, it got confused. I'm very bad at communication, but anyway, I was supposed to in our Instagram live that Nastasi and I did show off my clam broth house. For those of you that have never seen the clam broth house sign, in uh in the across the river in New Jersey, there used to be a place called the clam broth house, and they had a big sign and it with a with a you know a neon sign with a hand, and that hand was pointing down in a kind of these nuts uh symbol, and it says clam broth house.
+
+[32:50] And it's like, and so like you know, Jack Shrimp from Existing Conditions. I walk around, be like, get your clam broth right here, right here, right here, and we point down with the you know, with the clam broth house sign. So, anyway, he made us uh the cooking issues clam broth house shirt, and I was supposed to show it on Instagram, but I always wear a button up over my shirt, so I forgot to unbutton my shirt and show it. So I'm apologizing to Capri Sun for that. Anyway, anyway.
+
+[33:12] And John. He did see the picture of you wearing it though. He did see it, all right. Yes. Uh Kieran wrote in and said, uh, originally Kieran wrote in asking about the like uses of and nutrition of Okara.
+
+[33:24] Okara is the spent pulp uh that you have when you're making uh soy products, soy milk, tofu, etc. etc. Uh wrote back in again and said, Do you have a reputable source to look up a nutrition information, i.e. the nutritional uh label info, not health advice. I'm trying to narrow down the root cause of some issues I've been having.
+
+[33:46] So having a resource like that would be very helpful since there's so much misinformation about out there. Now, first of all, Kieran, I'll say this. I do not trust the labels on the back of the only source of in general that I have is the label that's on the back of products. And luckily, most um processed manufacturers' goods, you can now find Google, um Google Docs of the nutritional information on the back. And in general, that's what I use for carbohydrate loads, ingredients, and things like that, because they they they have to be listed there.
+
+[34:21] That's just the law. I don't trust them in terms of levels because no one ever takes a piece of food, you know, puts it into a bomb calorimeter, burns it, and tries to figure out not even that that would be the way I don't even know how they do it, but no one does that. What they do is is they they take the list of um nutritional information that they get off of their raw ingredients that are published by uh the federal government and then extrapolate the um extrapolate the amount of those uh you know things that are in in yours. And so I've seen many, many math errors. I've seen many out and out, just you know, where the numbers don't match up.
+
+[35:03] So I don't know. I don't have a good source. What about any of you guys have good source for this stuff? No, no, no. Yeah, I have a general lack lack of trust, although I do enjoy serving size basically.
+
+[35:15] So, like uh, I like whenever whenever I buy a new product, I spin it around, I'm like, how many servings is this? You know what I mean? So I bought a half gallon jug of um Taiwanese fermented chili, and I'm like, hey folks, what's a serving size? And for these guys, a serving size of their of their fermented chili uh saw was two ounces, 60 milliliters, which is a preposterous amount of this stuff. You know, whereas like, you know, other people are like, you know, you'll look at the serving size on on something else, and it's like tiny, and they're like 395 servings.
+
+[35:52] You're like, it's so it's like I love playing serving size bingo. It's my absolute favorite, my absolute favorite uh label game to play. Um, I also a lot of times when you guys ask me questions on the air, uh like how to how do you do X, Y, or Z. Um, I look at the ingredient labels of um people who do it, you know, on a larger scale, and it's pretty, it's fairly easy if you have a little bit of knowledge of how individual ingredients work. You know, like if you know what Xanthan does, if you know what the different polysorbates are for, if you know what um, you know, if you know some basic uh ingredient, if you have a basic ingredient kind of what's the word literacy, you can figure out a lot of times what people are doing.
+
+[36:41] The exception, and we'll get to something kind of similar to this. Uh, the exception you get to that is when people are using very tweaked out functional ingredients that sometimes are listed or sometimes aren't, but that can radically affect like what's going on. So, for instance, Oatley, who makes the oat milk that everyone goes gaga for. I've never tried it. Any of you guys tried this oatly stuff?
+
+[36:59] I'm drinking in my coffee. Remember, I gave up drunk. Yes. So you tried Oatly? I use Oatweat.
+
+[37:12] Is it good? It's the best non-milk milk. Fact. Especially for coffee. Yeah.
+
+[37:21] And you're and it lasts a long time, right? Yeah, it does. Yeah. So the thing about uh Oatley is that Oatly is doing something to the oat milk with enzymes, right? That and we talked about this on the air a while ago, that is doing a they're they're functionally altering the base product using an ingredient that is proprietary to them.
+
+[37:46] And so for that kind of stuff, it's kind of hard to back, it's kind of hard to kind of back figure what they're doing. But most of the time, people aren't doing that. That's the rare, that's the rare thing. So uh Oshmitt wrote in uh hey Nastasia and the cooking issues gang. My question is about Huey protein shakes.
+
+[38:05] Huey protein shakes. Uh I've never had a whey protein shake. You guys, any of you guys ever had a whey protein shake? Nope. No.
+
+[38:14] Uh the brand that I buy is a concentrate with added digestive enzymes. However, there's no mention of the amount of them. Uh what I do is that I make my drink and let it sit for 20 to 30 minutes. And my concern is that uh, if I immediately drink the shake, the enzymes might get denatured from all the stomach acid and other crap. Therefore, waiting some time could partially, in quotes, digest the proteins in the shake with the help of the enzymes.
+
+[38:37] Is this a legitimate concern? Does this waiting really help? Or is it a redundant step? Thanks so much, big fan. Sorry for the long question.
+
+[38:44] So, all right. Long like long story. There's a I had there's a lot to unpack here. All right. So most things that people add to products, I consider to be scams.
+
+[38:58] I'm just saying that straight up. Most things that people add that aren't to make something taste better, I think are scams. Most. Now there is the Herbalife, which is well known, I mean, say what you like, but they have been involved in some scammy things, right? They sell one of the enzyme things that is added to whey protein powders.
+
+[39:21] And when you look online for website for sorry, for peer-reviewed papers about doping enzymes into protein shakes, and there are a couple, guess who they were sponsored by? The Herbalife Corporation, right? So it's like you you you kind of have to be careful there. Now, I the the studies when they saw when they were looking to see whether or not you got a bigger spike of amino acids, uh I think they were checking one study I read, I think they were checking uh blood level of free amino acids, although I don't really even know what that means. And then uh they were also checking um excretion of nitrogen compounds in urine versus you know, control versus not.
+
+[40:05] And they were doping at the time of consumption. So they were not waiting, they were making the shake, adding the enzyme, and consuming it. Now, whether so, like presumably it takes X amount of time, and I've said this for this was one of my old uh diet things that I used to say, and people will always say I'm crazy, but I will reiterate it, even though this is not based in science, this is just based in logic. All right, I'm gonna pose you guys a logical question. Ready?
+
+[40:31] Yes. Okay. So if you uh what what what do they always say? How many calories is a pound? Something like what is it?
+
+[40:39] Does any of you guys remember 2000, whatever it is? No. So if you eat a teaspoon of oil, right, odds are your body can absorb that teaspoon of oil, right? Because your body can absorb that amount of oil in that amount of time, right? Now, uh, so let's say, let's say that you have the amount of oil that it would take to get your daily allowance of calories, right?
+
+[41:03] And you consume that. Great. Now, if I picked up a gallon of oil and I drank that gallon of oil all at once, do you think that my body would convert all of that oil into usable food calories? Or do you think that I would have an oil slick in my toilet? Oh.
+
+[41:24] You would you would definitely not process it in the calories. Right through you. It would go right through you, and you'd have a terrible cleanup job, right? There is a limit. There is a limit to how much your body can absorb at any one time of any one thing.
+
+[41:42] Now, I don't know what that is, right? But you know, this was, you know, years ago when I was younger, this was my I don't want to get into my like when I was younger quack theories, but it is definitely true that there is, and I don't know what it is, but there is some maximum rate of absorption. And so what people have uh said who believe in these digestive enzymes that you're adding to things, is that when you are eating a pro drinking a protein shake specifically to jack yourself with protein because you're working out, that your body cannot absorb whole protein quickly enough. I.e. you can't break it down into peptides and polypeptides fast enough that are absorbable into your system.
+
+[42:22] And therefore, if you add enzymes to it to break it down, that you increase the amount you can absorb in the relatively short transit time that that protein shake has in your gut. This may be the case, it may be true. Then you have to ask yourself do I actually need all that extra protein in my system? That is a separate question. Uh but adding it to break down early, it seems like if it works by swallowing it, it will work even better.
+
+[42:49] In quotes, doing it beforehand, but be aware that as you break protein down, you can develop uh bitter tasting things, bitter tasting polypeptides, especially because some of them use things like uh papayen, which is the um papaya-based uh protease enzyme, and that I know that can make bitter stuff because I've tested it. This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. So I'm opening the box. It's Spanish delicacies. Looks good.
+
+[43:27] Well, open over. By the way, these are these are the papara peppers. I don't what are they in? Are they in vinegar? What are they in?
+
+[43:39] I think they're in vinegar. Yeah. But this is uh pimentone. So this is gonna be probably smoked paymentone powder. Let's open her up.
+
+[43:48] And we have Harissa. Oh, yeah, it's nice. The smoked uh smoked, yeah. You like smoke pepperon. Yeah, that sounds good.
+
+[43:56] Start your monthly subscription at bend to table.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. Use the discount code H R N to get $20 off a new subscription, and Ben to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Just as we're as we're getting into clothes, one of the things that I wanted to add is when I started this, part of the thing was getting restaurant quality ingredients to people, and a lot of the suppliers I work with are tend to supply restaurants. And so since COVID, one of the things that I've been thinking about more, and partly because folks are telling me, is that uh in addition to the restaurant industry and sort of another part of the restaurant industry and restaurant workers story is the restaurant suppliers, many of whom are really hurting.
+
+[44:46] Um so a couple of the folks, so uh Piemont Deville or Boonville Barn Collective, they've got they make this amazing esplette pepper that's in my April box, for instance, and something like 85% of their orders dried up overnight because of that was restaurants. Geechee Boy Mill does a ton of work with restaurants, Diaspora Company does a bunch of work with restaurants. So I think it's a really interesting um just as a something for folks to think about as well is how to get ingredients outside of the grocery store supply chains, which obviously I'm here because that's part of what I'm doing, but I think there's also probably other ways that you can look at local suppliers in addition to, of course, tell me to bench table. Right. Well, you know, that it's it's interesting.
+
+[45:30] A lot of people, especially kind of like higher higher quality, uh higher quality suppliers who don't have an infinite amount of product, uh, you know, as you know, Nastasia and I can vouch for this, it's hard to distribute into either big box or grocery stores. It's very hard to do that and to maintain, you know, because either you don't have the amount of product or you don't have the scale, uh, things get sent way out. It's hard to maintain kind of freshness and just takes it takes a lot of resources to have a product that you could push out nationwide into grocery stores. And so a lot of people don't do it, and a lot of small places would rather work farmers markets or sell directly to restaurants because a restaurant typically is gonna order a lot more than uh an individual human being is, and they're relatively reliable because they know they're gonna sell this dish, they get this ingredient in, they know they're gonna carry it, they can develop a relationship. There's fewer people to have to deal with than if you have to deal with individual customers mediated through a grocery store, mediated through a distributor, right?
+
+[46:39] So uh I think it's an incredibly valid point is that a lot of these people, their relationships, they're they're really their only lifetime to be able to continue to make these things has been temporarily cut off. So it's a it's a good thing to support right now, I think. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no. Um let me rip these two questions real quick.
+
+[46:58] Peter Pa writes in uh hi Dave, uh, Matt, Nastasia. Hope you guys are safe and finding a way to cope with the various ramifications of the crisis. I'm working in the Danish craft beer scene as a distributor, so I'm also painfully aware of how devastating this is to the industry. But listening to you guys since the third episode, damn, you didn't go back and listen to the first two. What the hell?
+
+[47:16] Or do you mean listening live? Wouldn't that be crazy to listen to all eight billion episodes, just not the first two? That would be the craziest thing ever. I I kind of like that. Don't go back and listen to those first two.
+
+[47:27] Um, this is my first time writing in. If you're still keeping track of demographics, I'm 32 years old, male from Denmark, and living with my girlfriend. So where is that on the track, S. Uh, yeah, same. Right down the center?
+
+[47:41] Down the center. Right down the center. All right. My question is I've owned a couple different venting pressure cookers over the last 10 years and have now, by the way, I don't like pressure cookers that use venting as the mechanism of regulating pressure. So a lot of pressure cookers, when you like the literally the way they regulate pressure is to just shoot out stuff.
+
+[48:00] I've run some tests. You can go back on the cooking issues blog, which still exists. John is working on restarting it as a live thing, but you can go look at the tests, believe them, don't believe them, whatever. But I like Coon Recon. Anyway, uh, there's other good ones, but that's just the one I use at home.
+
+[48:16] Um I've owned a couple different venting pressure cookers over the last 10 years and have now finally decided to go all in and buy the the big one, the Coon Recon. However, after doing some research, I discovered that their pressure cookers, as well as all other pressure cookers sold in the European Union, only come up to about 0.8 bar, which is about 12 PSI. And naturally, I would like to pull the full one bar or 15 psi of pressure, which is what you know they're quoted at here, and what most of most of the ones that I do, except the electric ones, go to 15 BSI. And I don't know why a lot of the electric ones don't go. It's ridiculous.
+
+[48:49] They should just go to the 15 PSI. I've run extensive tests on several different ingredients at different pressures, and 15 PSI to get the extra brownness, the extra kind of meatiness brownness, um, is a better pressure to run at than 12. Anyway, uh, so I wrote Coon Recon to see if I could buy a replacement spring from the American market to achieve a higher pressure. And this is the answer I got. First of all, I appreciate the writing in.
+
+[49:13] That's a good uh cooking level one. Well, they give the, they give their their general listing here. Cooking level one is 0.4 bar uh and cooking level two is 0.8 bar uh is achieved when both red lines on the pressure indicator stem are visible. But here's the important part that Kun Recon gave you that you can hone in on. To maintain the desired cooking level, the amount of heat to the pressure cooker needs to be reduced.
+
+[49:36] A hissing sound accompanied by the escape of steam means that the maximum operating pressure, now hear this: the maximum operating pressure of 1.2 to 1.8 bar has been reached. Then you should reduce the heat or remove the pressure cooker uh until the second red line is just visible. What they're telling you, what they're telling you is, Peter, that you can get the pressure you want. You just have to jack it over that second line. Just don't jack it more than one point one point really does about 1.5 bar.
+
+[50:06] But just don't jack it so high that it starts to hiss and vent. But there's no reason you can't push it over that second red line. And it's always it's repeatable. So as long as you push it the exact same amount over that red line all the time, you'll always get the result you want. And I repeatedly here in the US do that.
+
+[50:24] I jack it over that red line, just not so much that it starts hissing. I hope that helps. Um Serena wrote in uh backing up Nastasia, but then also not throwing me under the bus. For the record, I agree with you with regards to the mustard debate. So for those of you that don't know, last week we had a debate on whether or not John and I should manufacture this uh manufacture mustard in the style of this mustard that we love that's from Ghent because you know, absent, you know, my Learjet and my monocle uh polishing facility, I don't have the ability to go to Ghent regularly and purchase this mustard.
+
+[50:59] It has a shelf life and whatever. And so like Nastasia was horrified that I would try to even make something in the style of what you know these people made. Uh, I think John is excited to at least learn how mustard is made with me, but whatever. Anyway, that was the mustard debate. Was is this accurate, people?
+
+[51:17] Yes. Yes. Okay. Uh for the record, I agree with uh Nastasia with regards to the mustard debate. It is very American to assume that you can just make in quotes a product that people have been making for decades and that have an embedded heritage.
+
+[51:31] I think Dave usually, here's where she doesn't throw me under the bus. I think Dave usually has the healthy approach of trying not to do the exact same thing exactly, but to learn the technique and try to honor the tradition in that way. Thank you, Serena. Backing Nastasi up without throwing me under the bus. If more people could try to see both sides of a uh of a debate, unlike some of these debates that are going on on Twitter.
+
+[51:53] Do you think Twitter's gotten more nasty recently just because people can't have real human interactions, so they just become nastier on Twitter? Or is it just I'm paying attention to it more because I'm locked in the house? The latter. Okay. It's always been like that.
+
+[52:06] It's just functionally useless, right? I mean, like people ask me questions on Twitter and then I and then I answer them. But like when I go and look at the debates people are having on Twitter, it's just a freaking nightmare. It's just, I don't understand it. Uh oh, Serena added, I don't remember which podcast talk about this, but a similar idea someone had was doing American uh Hamoni Birico, and I'm making air quotes around that, is very similar and somewhat controversial.
+
+[52:31] It's from an America's Test Kitchen podcast, uh, done by the uh White Oak Pastures People's Pork. Listen, I am you should not make I do not believe that you should try to make and sell anything as somebody else's product. However, on ham specifically, Americans were doing nut-fed ham. Not the same, not the same as like uh uh Hamone Barico, Bayota fed, Hamon and Barico, but we had our own extremely high-end hams. And for years, for years, since the early 2000s, I have been saying that we need to kind of focus on what makes an American ham great instead of trying to recreate somebody else's ham.
+
+[53:12] I mean, I totally agree with that, but I don't whatever. I'm not gonna get back into the mustard debate. Do we have time for classics in the field or do we not have time for classics in the field? Uh not have time for classics in the field today. Oh my god, I had such a good classics in the field.
+
+[53:26] I was gonna talk about the book of edible nuts, these nuts. Next. Well, that isn't a good idea. Are you familiar? Listen, everybody wants to hear you tease these nuts, and we'll do the nuts next week.
+
+[53:36] Frederick Rhodes Rosengarten Jr., who I'm gonna talk about. Just you know what I can do, Matt? Can I put can I give you an image that you can put up beforehand? My favorite image of a human brain in cross-section versus a walnut in cross-section. Uh yeah, yeah.
+
+[53:53] Next week, babe. That's what I'm saying. I'm gonna give it to them for next week. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[53:57] Now let me ask another question. People can write in. Let me know what's going on. So, like, I can do so. Like last week, I did two classics in the field to make up for the fact that I don't think we had one the week before.
+
+[54:08] One was one that I didn't think anyone would ever read, but had kind of important kind of cultural ramifications for how we look at kind of food and food politics. And the other one was one I thought that people might enjoy. If that's something people like, or just do the ones that people enjoy? Or because it like like versus my man, the book of edible nuts with Frederick Rodden Rosengarten uh Jr. would be my boy Sigfreed Gideon's mechanization takes command, which was important, but I don't think anyone's gonna read it.
+
+[54:36] What do you what do you what do you think? What do you think? I uh I would dole them out one a week if it was me, but you know, you can do what you want. But in other words, like one that people would like versus one people I don't know. Anyway, you guys think about it, you get back to me.
+
+[54:48] Ben, bend to table. How do people how do people order this? What do people normally order, by the way? First of all, have you seen a spike in people ordering now that everyone's at home? So what I've what I've really seen is a shift where it used to be that delicacies was the most popular order, and now people have really been tending toward the essential subscription.
+
+[55:05] And the difference is the the delicacies is what I sent. Nastasia, which is the like, you know, spreads and spices and stuff, and the essentials is the grits and grains and pastas. Um and but yeah, there has been an uptick in interest, um, and very much hoping, you know, uh shelf stable pantry items have become much more culturally relevant, I'd say, in the last couple months than they than they ever than they ever were before. Um listen, this is true. These are shelf stable, but also what you need to do is use them.
+
+[55:34] Don't stockpile these things, use them. Because Ben's choosing stuff that I swear to God, this stuff, yeah. I know that he's sponsoring the show and all, but the stuff is really delicious, should be consumed uh somewhat, you know, in a timely fashion, especially like those grits, like they they they stone mill them in small batches, send them out to you, and they really you shouldn't leave them for months and months on your on your shelf. In fact, if you can, you should free freeze them. Oh, I also did skillet.
+
+[56:02] You're like, so like a southerner would hate me. I did skillet cornbread with their blue cornmeal that was uh delicious, but um, you know, and I think it is true people are going to staples now a lot more, a because you know they can sit on your shelf for at least a while, but also since people are home more, they have more time to do things that take longer to cook. So people are doing more dried bean work, people are doing more um kind of things that they wouldn't otherwise do. But if you're into this, go ahead and get you something like an Instapot or a rice cooker to do it. Go and get uh, you know, bend a table, get some of these things.
+
+[56:36] If you've never had some of these, if you never had Rancho Gordo beans, delicious. If you've never had uh the Geechee Boys, those grits, those uh what are they called? Red Jimmy Red. Are they called again? Jimmy Red.
+
+[56:48] Those are delicious. Are they not delicious? They are super delicious, and it's also it's a really cool story of like you know, a small gardener essentially passing seeds down for generations and generations until it got to Sean Brock, who then got it to Geechee Boy and Anson Mills. Um the Geechee Boy people, are they actually from the islands or no? Are they gulla or are they Geechee?
+
+[57:10] Are they the same? They are they on is are is that company from one of the they're from basically there. I'm not a hundred percent, but I think they're from Edistow Island, which is where which is where Yeah, they are from Edistow Island. Oh, yeah, it's right, because John, you've worked with all those people, right? John's part of the Museum of Food and Drink has worked with these people.
+
+[57:26] Yeah, we didn't get to uh to work with the Geechee Boy folks, but when we did do a research trip down through there, we did pick up a bunch of their products and brought them back up, and yeah, they're super tasty. They're doing really awesome, awesome stuff. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, go go get that stuff. And people have more time to cook, so cook.
+
+[57:42] And so I would say thank you very much. And I would say, um, so bent to table.com, B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E dot com is the website. Um, and we are doing this thing with H R N where if you use the code H R N when you check out, it's a there's a little discount code place on the checkout page on the right side. Um you you'll get 20 bucks off your first month of the subscriptions, which are themselves uh $59.99 a month. And um we'll donate 10 bucks to HRN.
+
+[58:09] Sweet. All right. Well, there you have it. Next week uh we'll do the Book of Edible Nuts and the Book of Spices by my uh by Frederick Rosengarten and maybe Mechanization Takes Command by Ziggfried Gideon. Uh if you want to have Ben back ask specific questions about stuff that he's um selling, I'm sure he'd be willing to do that.
+
+[58:28] Otherwise, we'll see you next week on the cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[58:44] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[59:07] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you actually live, but still from the Lower East Side. And we have Matt in the booth in uh Rhode Island. Nastasia, where Nastasia, where are you? New York. But who knows when we'll be back in Bushwick, Brooklyn, right?
+
+[0:53] Hopefully never. Whoa. Wow. Wow, all right. How do you really feel about it though, Nastasia?
+
+[1:05] Nastasia's like, every every dark cloud's got a silver lining. At least I don't have to go over there. Wow. Damn, Stas. Yes.
+
+[1:18] Well, the thing about Nastasia is that the only time she pulls her punches is when it makes her life easier, right? So, like, like for instance, if I'm working on a recipe and I have like three different iterations, and I'm like, which one's better? She'll just choose so that I shut up. She doesn't actually care about the quality of it because she doesn't care about the quality of the stuff. So it's like.
+
+[1:45] Yeah, but that's that's my whole life is that five percent. My whole life is that 5%. Which means that you don't respect anything that I'm doing. Right. But the reason why I'm your business partner is because I make decisions and I'm like, you know what?
+
+[1:58] Let's just do it instead of going over it. You know, what's the what's the term that like people use in the business world? Done is better than perfect. You you're the opposite of that. Perfect is better than done.
+
+[2:10] What? No, no, no, listen. My my motto, my motto in school was better done than good. Really? Better done, yeah.
+
+[2:22] Because if I don't care about something, better get it done than good. But if something's a lifelong project, like French fries or something like this, there is no done. And if there is no done ever done when creating products, there has to be a done, or we don't make money. Okay, but you what like I'm gonna do it in other words, like I'm gonna do it again and again and again for the rest of my life. So that's like the the whole idea of choose the whole thing about cooking as opposed to other things like writing a book, let's say, right, is that you you know, unless you're plan on dying tomorrow, you get to do it again.
+
+[3:01] And so you want to be a little bit better next time than you were this time. So the whereas something that you're going to actually complete and hand off and never look at again, sure, better done, better done than good, especially when it comes to like school essays or you know, or things like this, things that are like tearing you apart from the inside that you have to do, you know, you're like, yeah, at least it's done, right? That's why I used to love tests. So when you're in school, I always used to pray for tests because there's a limited amount of work you can do prior to a test, and then the test is gonna happen and you can't drag it on. There's no dragging a test on because the test happens.
+
+[3:44] You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah, no, no, because due dates are always fungible. You can always show that gone. You worked with me for how long?
+
+[3:56] I look, here's the thing. Like in college, once you realize that nobody is ever gonna hold you to a due date, that nothing has meaning anymore, and that everything can be twisted around. I always took due dates very seriously. Yeah, well same here. Not me.
+
+[4:12] When I taught at UConn, I enforced my due date seriously. I did not. And a word of caution to any college students out there. I still to this day have dreams about assignments that I didn't finish, like that I believe I didn't finish, and I'm like not actually graduated from college. So don't do it the day of our way.
+
+[4:30] Like just do the work, just give it in at the right time. Otherwise, it might haunt you for the rest of your life. Speaking of haunting for the rest of your life, did it have I ever told the story of staying up 72 hours in a row? I don't not to me. Stupid.
+
+[4:46] Have I told this on the air? Probably. Okay. Uh well okay, do it, do it. So here's what happened.
+
+[4:56] So uh when I was in college, and Nastasi hates when I just say that, so I went to Yale. I was at Yale, where her sister went. I went to college in New Haven. Um you could do the opposite with where you were born. Did we talk about this already?
+
+[5:12] No, we have not talked about this. Whenever I go ahead. So I was my mom was an undergraduate at Stanford when I was born, and that's when her parents, my grandparents, who are both now dead, told her that she would never be successful, never reach her dreams, never, you know, never accomplish her life goals. By the way, she started the pediatric heart transplant program at Columbia University, which she still runs and has the best survival, long-term survival numbers of anyone in in the business and has saved countless lives of kids that would be dead, and has transplanted kids that no one else on freaking earth would transplant. So yeah, never never went very far, my mom.
+
+[5:51] Anyway, um tough, tough being raised by such a degenerate. Yeah, I know, right? Anyway, so uh so yeah, her parents tell her nothing's ever gonna happen to her. But anyway, she's never gonna, you know, do anything. But anyway, I was born at Stanford Hospital, at Stanford University Hospital, and so uh my dad always, you know, for some reason it stuck in my dad's head, and he loved the idea that Stanford University had its own zip code, and so my actual place of birth on my whatever they give you, that piece of paper when you're born, it says Stanford and not Palo Alto.
+
+[6:27] So you're like, Where were you born? I Stanford. And they're like, You mean Palo Alto? So now I just say it just it's just confusing because everyone's like Palo Alto. I'm like, no, I wasn't born in freaking Palo Alto.
+
+[6:38] What am I? What do I so my mom like, you know, had me on the street on the freaking street. I was in the hospital. You know what I mean? Anyway.
+
+[6:46] Anyway. Do they have hospitals in Palo Alto or is it all just at Stanford styles? I think there's an East Palo Alto hospital. I don't I don't know about Yeah, they have yeah, I've been to Stanford, I mean the Palo Alto Hospital before. Why?
+
+[7:00] STD scare. Yeah, but you couldn't go to student health for that. They always they thought you were pregnant, like immediately. It was just very stupid. Student health is very stupid.
+
+[7:11] They have tests for that. At Yale, at Yale, student health was just how much did you drink and when did you drink it? Like that's what it was. I didn't drink in college. So all right.
+
+[7:23] So here's what happened. So at Yale, they had this deal where you you could up to a couple of weeks, you could, you know, um drop a class and nothing, nothing would happen, right? I mean, it's saying, you know what, this class, crap on this class. You could do that. But then uh literally up until the last day of classes, you could drop a class, and it would just show up as a drop, but it wouldn't show up as a grade.
+
+[7:52] You wouldn't get graded for it. It would just show up, oh, dude drop this class, right? So, you know, I was, you know, whatever, not necessarily going to classes or, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? Doing my homework. Anything else?
+
+[8:07] I was going to the library and spending like a good three or four hours a day sifting through the stacks, which is what the you know, the where the library books are called. So, like, for instance, I would hit certain sections. I went through a thing where I was looking up uh uh British um kind of early modern execution practices. Surprising amount of information on British, like early modern execution practices. Anyway, so like at any one time in my room, I would have the maximum allowable number of books out, which is 50.
+
+[8:40] I know I've told the story on the air before about how I committed uh postal uh internet, you know, like uh postal fraud uh to not pay my fines at the Yale University. By the way, the obscenely high fines at the Yale University Library. Um, but that's how I got interested in Russian absurdist literature, etc. etc. Anyway, so I spent most of my time because there was no internet the way that you found random information was to go into a giant library and wander around and pick up books.
+
+[9:11] So that's what I did with most of my time. And I listened to a lot of stereo my room listening to stereo quite a bit. And I spent 50 hours a week to pay for my tuition. Well that's what I did in my free time. Sounds awesome.
+
+[9:24] Sounds fun. What did you work as I was a lifeguard at the pool. I was a research assistant to this pervert. I was a waitress research assistant where you you fuzzed for a pervert and then I was a waitress downtown in Palawan. Huh yeah what kind of restaurant?
+
+[9:44] It was called Empire Grill and Tap Room. So it was like an American American place. You think that place is still there? Uh no I asked and I searched it's not there. So you can't go back and be like I would not want to go back you wouldn't go back and do all sorts of crazy stuff?
+
+[9:59] No. So my wife Jen had a job at a at some sort of place like that like a Ramada like a restaurant at a Romata or something like this where she had like the terrible polyester like you know skirt thing that she had to wear and she took told me the story that she because you know she lived in Germany in high school and so she um because her you know her dad was Air Force that she they had no one had trained her how to bring a tray of uh glass glasses out to you know drinks out to a table. So she goes out to the table, you know, and she lifts up the glass on the edge, and the whole tray goes boom boom and like falls on the table all over everyone, right? Which is classic. Although I don't know how Jen got the job because she's not a she doesn't lie.
+
+[10:44] I mean, everyone out there who has ever been a server knows that the only way to get that first service job is to lie, right? I mean, is there is that still the truth? John, is that still the truth? Say that. You never lied.
+
+[10:57] The only way to get your first server job is to lie. My mom was my reference as a fake person, yes. Right. So you lied. Yeah.
+
+[11:06] Like, I don't, I don't think, like, I think it's like you can't go into the service industry unless you're willing to make that first lie. It's like it's the bargain of the food service industry, right? It's like you can't, you have to be a little bit of a degenerate enough to lie to get that first job. And if you're not willing to lie to get that first job, maybe, just maybe, this business is not for you. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[11:29] Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, let's be honest. Like, you're gonna have to lie to uh your guests all the time. Like when Booker was working for you at Pasta Flyer, Booker hates pasta.
+
+[11:42] And so we had to go through a lot of training with him on what to say when people ask what they should get. Like, he's not allowed to say, like, it's all gross, I hate it all. It's pasta, I hate pasta, right? So you have to be willing to do a certain amount of kind of I like to think of them as helpful lies. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:03] To people, anyway. Uh, so anyway, so she dumps this whole tray of of uh drinks all over these people. And this is the only time, no offense to our European friends, but this is the only time that she was lucky she was serving a table of Germans because she realized that they were Germans and started instantly apologizing to them in German. And they were like, Oh, you know, it's you know, everything was okay, everything was forgiven because here's this American person in you know in America speaking German to them and apologizing. So she ended up actually getting a good tip out of the situation, which is crazy.
+
+[12:40] It's great. Yeah. Anyway, so to a less pleasant story. So you're allowed to drop your classes at Yale up until the very, very, very last day. By that I mean end of day, last day of classes, 5 p.m.
+
+[12:54] Now, when you drop a class, right? What you do is you just hand in a piece of paper saying, I am dropping this class, and you hand it to the dean's admin, right, person before 5 p.m. on the last day of classes. That's all that's required. So I was taking this class called Math 301 Complex Analysis.
+
+[13:16] Uh, by the way, for those of you math people out there, we were using uh Rudin as the textbook, which I still own on complex analysis, and uh and about three weeks, so I couldn't quite drop it without it showing up on my on my transcript. But I was like, you know what? No, I'm not no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I I I left the class, I never went back, I never did the homework, I never went to class. I I never took the tests, I didn't do anything.
+
+[13:44] And I'm like, I'll just drop it, I'll drop it. But classic me, guess what? I never did. I never dropped it. I never handed in that one piece of paper.
+
+[13:53] I had I had 11 weeks, 11 weeks of knowing I wasn't gonna take this class. And all I needed to do, and by the way, the dean's office, the dean's office, it's not like it was like, oh my god, it was snowing and it was like two miles away, and I didn't have a car. No, I did not have to leave the covering of my college building. I could have gone entirely in an underground tunnel in a matter of three minutes and made it to the dean's office to hand in this piece of paper, right? I just didn't do it.
+
+[14:27] So this will give you an idea kind of of me, right? So uh so there I am. I'm like, hey he, and then I'm at my one of my philosophy professors. I'm at like his house, right? Because he's having an after, you know, like a whatever, like, hey, you know, school year's over, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[14:44] And then someone's like, oh yeah, uh, it's officially over, it's five. And I was like, oh my god, I didn't drop the class. And so then I was way the heck far away because I was at this dude's house, right? And so I just start running I'm running full speed, and like I had and like I have a piece of paper, I like scroll that I think, and I and like I collapse on the on the on the dean's office, which is closed, even though it's like only 15 minutes afterwards, and I slip the paper underneath that's saying, please let me drop this class. 15 minutes late.
+
+[15:23] And my dean was a professor of military history. And my dean, his only my first dean, my his only thing that he really enjoyed doing was making people cry in the dining hall. Just like rancid, rancid dude. You know what I mean? Like, loved making people cry.
+
+[15:42] He's probably dead now, so I'll call him out. His name was Seleski, Dean Seleschi. Anyway, so he um he was like, nope. And he had this weird, like pursed lip situation. Oh, sorry.
+
+[15:54] Um, sorry, that those are the rules. You have to uh take the class. I was like, take the class, take the class. And I now bear in mind, you're speaking to a guy, a kid, really, who already you realized that all he had to do was hand in a single piece of paper and this wouldn't have been a problem, and he didn't do it. Now, do you think that I had planned ahead so that I didn't have to do all of my semester's work in that last week and a half before exams?
+
+[16:21] Or do you think I had already planned on pulling a bunch of all-nighters to do all of my work that I hadn't done during the year because I was too busy reading about uh early modern English execution practices? It was the latter. I didn't have any extra time because I had already been like, oh my God, I already have three 20-page papers I need to write in the next week and a half. I already have, you know, I already have this test and this. So basically, I went to the math professor and I said, Listen, you don't know me.
+
+[16:48] He's like, Yeah, I don't know you. He's like, Yeah, I didn't take your class, right? He's like, No, you weren't in my class. I have no idea who you are. Well, guess what?
+
+[16:53] I'm taking the class. And he was gracious enough to let me take the midterm and the final, waive the homeworks that I hadn't done, right? And but I had to stay up for 72 hours straight just to do the extra work to study to take the midterm and final so that I could get a grade in in that class. And I was told what'd you say? What'd you get?
+
+[17:15] In that class, he mercifully gave me a C in that class. That was the most merciful C ever on the face of the earth. But I was told by my friends and colleagues that I was not, I was able to do, I did well in the rest of my classes, thankfully, right? But I was not able to speak. I was not able to speak to people because I was so incoherent from lack of sleep.
+
+[17:39] And that this is when I learned that a shower is two hours worth of sleep, that if you if you need an extra two hours of sleep, a shower will do that. And I remember very distinctly, I didn't drink coffee at the time. I was drinking uh liters and liters of tea. I would bring soda bottles in, fill them with tea, and then walk around uh drinking tea. And I remember around hour like 58 or 59.
+
+[18:02] When I was pouring the tea into my bottle, I poured the hot tea all over my hand and completely scalded it, like a really bad, like a like a really bad burn all over my hand. And my I remember to this day, I was like, sweet, the pain will keep me up. And that was it. But I did well. My God.
+
+[18:23] So anyway, as Matt says, probably don't be like me. Probably don't be like me. That is actually the nightmare scenario that I have that I'm like enrolled in a class and that I've completely forgotten about entirely, and that's past the expiration that I cannot get out of it. Yeah, so you lived it. Great.
+
+[18:39] Yeah, well, as as usual, Matt, I'm living the dream. Yes, you are. Yeah, living the nightmare. That's that should be our motto, Stas. Living the dream?
+
+[18:50] Live live in the nightmare. Living the nightmare. Here you go. All right. Did you hear that?
+
+[18:55] Cuomo is leaving CNN. The brother, Chris? Yeah. He, by the way, was at Yale with me a year a year above me. Oh wow.
+
+[19:05] Yeah. So that tell this story. So when I started going out with my wife, uh, I went, okay, so we're going out. I had this room, but I wanted to put the bed up against the door, right? Because I wanted to rearrange my bedroom.
+
+[19:19] And this guy, John Morning, who was, you know, he was a senior. I was a junior, he's a senior. He was next to me. I had the good computer with the video games. I wanted to move my bed over, but then there was no way that he was going to be able to go through our fire door and use my computer.
+
+[19:35] So I took a circular saw and Dutch doored my door so that you could and added an extra hinge so that he could come in and out and walk over my bed in his sneakers to play my to play my computer. And one day, Chris Cuomo, who was friends with John Morning, was banging on that door looking for somebody else. Anyway, Chris Cuomo. So why is he leaving CNN? He realized that he um couldn't be himself and that everyone should call Trump out, and he's sick of like pretending that Trump isn't a problem and all this other stuff.
+
+[20:07] I thought CNN was very openly anti-Trump. Not enough for Chris Cuomo. Also, some guy like attacked him in his driveway. Well, like started saying crap to him in his driveway while he was on coronavirus shutdown, and he was like, I really wanted to tell this guy off, but I couldn't because I have to keep up this, you know, nice guy personality for CNN, and I just don't care anymore. Wait, so you're saying if he quit two days earlier, he could could have clocked this guy?
+
+[20:37] Yeah, he's like he basically said I was clocked this guy. Nah, you know, those are the kind of regrets you don't want to be like when you're like, you know, you're on your you're on your deathbed, you got the death rattle. You know, you're like, I should have clocked that guy. You know what I mean? That's not the not the kind of regret you want, you know.
+
+[20:56] Yeah, but now he's gonna look back and he's gonna be like, Well, at least I was able to clock the next one. Yeah. But there's never gonna be a next one. There will. There was like a Oh, there will.
+
+[21:06] He was having a fight on the internet with some guy. Remember, he was like taped having an argument with some guy at a bar like two months ago. Yeah. Really? I don't know.
+
+[21:14] Here's the thing is like for me. I figure at this point, I'm like 49 years old. I just don't get into fights with people. It's just not gonna come up. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:23] It's just like I guess there's certain people that get in fights and certain people that don't. If you were a public personality like him, I think you'd have a lot more opportunity to get in fights with people, Dave. Like, listen, my whole life, I am I am generally abrasive, and I don't get into physical confrontations with people. I think there's just like there's like people who get into physical confrontations and people who don't. I don't agree.
+
+[21:45] I think if you had a national show, you would undoubtedly excuse me. Cooking issues is an international show. Don't come on now. Yeah, Matthew, you ever been in a fight? No, man.
+
+[21:57] Look at me. No. What about you, John? You ever been in a fight? Uh kind of.
+
+[22:03] I went to a boarding school, which for purposes I leave their name out of this, but uh we were I was a sophomore and I was rounded up at three in the morning to participate in what was called a cock fight. So me and other sophomores and freshmen were padded up with lacrosse gear and football helmets, and we had to kick the crap out of each other. Oh well, yeah. That was that's more of a sport than a fight, though. There was no animosity.
+
+[22:28] You didn't you weren't like I want to beat the crap out of this person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I didn't also know. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[22:36] I mean, like about you, Stas? Fights, fights? Yeah, and in high school and middle school. Like knockdown, drag eye fights? With other girls, yeah.
+
+[22:48] Did you win? Uh I remember it being broken up before there was like a winner. That's kind of the best, right? Then everyone can walk away. Because he said something to me, and then he started bleeding, but I had just it looked bad that I had just popped his pimple, and then I had a little detention because they thought that I had like broken his forehead open, literally just burst his pimple.
+
+[23:15] Wow, that's gross. But I was trying to everyone listening, everyone listening is still processing this. And we were in the swimming pool, like in the Oh Jesus. Oh no! Is this is this why you hate swimming pools?
+
+[23:35] Yeah, and it was like bleeding all over, and they were like, You're going to detention. And I was like, pimple. Because of poly pimples. That's why you hate swimming pool, because of poly pimples that you popped in the in the floorhead. Like during swim practice, there was so much disgusting crap in that pool.
+
+[23:52] Oh my god. I forgot you just said you were lifeguard. So you used to be a lifeguard, so you're in high school and college. So your inability was so at some point after college, you're like, I'm never going back to one of these places again. Yeah, it's real gross.
+
+[24:06] Real gross. Real gross. Wow. Wow. Alright.
+
+[24:11] Uh so Marco's listening in and had a question in the chat. All right. Uh it says, Hi Dave, another oven question. I recently moved to a new apartment and the oven is real crap. It is a gas oven, not too old, but the heat comes only from the body um bottom with a gradient that is much steeper than any other oven I have had.
+
+[24:33] I tried to blind bake a tart shell and the bottom was almost burned while the sides still pale, even with the double tray. Veggies get a weird texture, hard and dry exterior. There is no craping apart from where in contact with the baking tray. You have any solutions in mind putting a baking steel on the top shelf or something like that. I thought about getting a small convection oven on the counter, but that would be quite inefficient.
+
+[24:58] Uh actually they're not that inefficient. Uh maybe space-wise inefficient, but uh in the summer, but by the way, they gave it to me for free. So the Breville Smart Oven, but like I try to only cook things that will fit in that in the summer summertime because it doesn't heat up the house as much. And I've done the math on it and it's not that inefficient from a power usage standpoint. Although it is electric and not gas.
+
+[25:22] Now, uh wait, did he say it was a gas oven or an electric oven? I believe you said it was gas. So most gas ovens that I've used, home gas ovens that I've used, have a um the the the heat the gas element is underneath the floor of the oven, and then that flame impinges directly on you know, usually what amounts to an enamel plate on the bottom. And so you're gonna get a a pretty big gradient from the bottom to the top. I'm wondering why it's so bad in this particular oven.
+
+[25:54] There's no way that putting a baking steel on the top is gonna help you because um if it's an actual temperature gradient, you will load that thing with heat, but it will load at the wrong temperature, right? It'll i in other words, like if if you're if your oven's underpowered and it can't get the whole box to the correct temperature, then adding more mass to it will just make make it longer to to to to get up to whatever temperature it was gonna get up to. So, like, I'll give you, I'll give you a uh uh an example. So, like uh I found an oven on the street once in the in the mid-90s, and I brought it into my apartment, which I wasn't allowed, it was my loft. I wasn't allowed to have you know cooking implements there.
+
+[26:37] So I f literally found it on the street, and it and uh it was it was from the I think 20s or 30s, all white enamel, kind of nice, but no thermostats, no nothing. And I would just crank it. And then this was back in the days when everyone was talking about you know baking stones for kind of like the first time. So I was just loading fire bricks in, and what you realize is is that after a while, it it just it takes a lot of time to load all of that extra mass up to the temperature you want, which is why when you're doing a retained heat masonry oven, they heat it for a long time, like hours, because you have to fill all of that mass with heat energy before you can start using it as a retained heat uh oven. So, anyway, if your oven is underpowered, adding extra thermal mass to it isn't a way to kind of help it out.
+
+[27:25] It can maybe can even it out, but it's not gonna help if you can't get up to the temperatures. You might want to look into just getting an electric element and like suspending it from the very top of your oven and having independent uh top and bottoms. I've done that relatively effectively, and that will add just a little boost of energy at the top, but it doesn't have to be a lot. Like, you know, if you a couple of hundred watts at the top can just take it, you know, that couple of extra degrees and help even you out. I don't know of a way of turning a non-convection oven into a convection oven reliably.
+
+[28:02] Notice I add the word reliably. I have done it, but I wouldn't call it reliable. Anyway, I don't know. Was this helpful at all, guys? What do you think?
+
+[28:11] I mean, yeah, that makes sense. It would be silly of them to try the baking sheet thing at load it up with heat at the bottom and then move it up to the top after it was heated to the correct or above the correct temperature, right? They they can they could totally do that. It's just the the problem is then, you know, how long is it going to stay at that temperature and then it's going to go to a relatively lower temperature. So it's just a question of how long you're cooking something, right?
+
+[28:42] So like most of the tricks people do with um with pizzas, right? So that people are using like those, those when they're cooking breads or pizzas, my question to them always is, well, how many are you doing? You know what I mean? Because, you know, any recipe that tells you heat, so like let's say your oven takes 15 minutes to heat up, right? So if you have an oven that takes 15 minutes to heat up, if you look at most recipes that involve baking stones or baking steels, the heat up time for them is substantially longer, right?
+
+[29:12] And they'll always say put it in for a substantially longer period of time. And the reason they tell you that is because you're loading it up with the energy that you need. Now then when you add stuff to it, the whole point of like a baking steel, for instance, is that you've stored energy into it and now you unload it into your pizza or whatever, right? So then the thing is is that if you put something on it again right away, then you're that's it. You know what I mean?
+
+[29:38] Like you have to wait a certain period of time. So it's all a question of you can you can do anything, it's a it's a question of how long can you do it for and how many of that thing in a row in a row can you do? So, like for instance, my crepe maker, my gas crate maker, like if you you have to throttle it almost down to zero if you're not gonna be cooking with it, because you're expected to put a huge, a huge thermal mass of like crepe is basically it's the same as pouring water almost on the entire thing. And that takes a huge amount of energy to heat up really quickly. So then you have to crank the crate maker all the way up, right?
+
+[30:20] So that you get the right amount of uh heat input. Right. And so getting this kind of heat input versus kind of output to be the same is the trick of someone who's doing high volume cooking. This is the reason why most tacos al pastor are no good unless you go to a place that makes tacos al pastor constantly, because the way that an al pastor, so an al pastor, you know, is the vertical spit, sometimes with the pineapple on top, it rotates, you cut off the Al Pastor into the taco, and then you take a bunch of pineapple. What'd you say?
+
+[30:52] Tell them the story. Which one? The most famous one. Which one? Jeremiah.
+
+[30:59] Oh, yeah, I can tell that. So anyway, so like the point is is that is that the way that an Al Pastor rig is set up is it wants to be on heavy blast all the time, so that you get a nice outside crust on your on your on the on the meat, right? So you can cut it off and you have that nice kind of you know, crust not crust thing, right? But you yeah, and if you don't do it all the time, you have to turn it way down, and it's not the same, right? So it's it's all about heat input versus output.
+
+[31:28] So Jeremiah uh and fabulous from Contra Wild Air came and did a Mofad uh Museum of Food and Drink um kind of getting to know you event at the Harry Houdini house in California, you know, this is before all the COVID last year, and they rented or borrowed a like a portable pastor unit, right? So it's like this like portable thing. And Jeremiah was like, hey, this is not cooking fast enough. And so he tried to move it, but didn't kind of, I guess, realize that the way those things are set up is it's all just kind of friction and luck that keeps it kind of vertical. It's not like pinioned into a hard place because the idea is you might have to move it back and forth.
+
+[32:10] So you literally, there's a block in the bottom that the vertical spit sits in, and that block can slide back and forth, and then there's an arm over the top, and that arm moves, but you have to be very careful and slide it without letting it tilt, or as we found out, all hell breaks loose. So he tries to move it like right before guests show up, and then the Al Pastor falls over. Did it actually hit the ground, Stas or no? No, it hit the grill part or whatever that is. No, Fabulous had been riding uh some form of scooter.
+
+[32:40] Fabulous is Fabian von Howski. He'd been riding some sort of scooter the week prior, and I don't know whether he was scooting well, well in bibing or what, but he busted his arm up real bad. Like his arm was like, you know, kind of like Robocop, like full traction, like pins and metal and all this crap, right, Saz? Yeah. Yeah, it was like totally messed up.
+
+[33:03] And so Fabulous couldn't help Jeremiah write the thing. I'm in a full, what was I dressed in, Stuzz? I had my full jacket and everything on, right? And there's Al Pastor meat everywhere. So like we're all running in, we're stripping down to our like t-shirts and like grabbing this giant hunk of meat and trying to write it.
+
+[33:22] And then we turn around, and there's Harold McGee sipping champagne in a Zoltar outfit, watching the whole proceedings. Chasing his head, shaking his head slowly. Yeah, best best cooking moment of my life. Best cooking moment of my life right there. Yeah.
+
+[33:36] So anyway, so the point the point is you want to get you like any situation, you can do one of two things. You can either have enough heat it input into something that you can do it constantly, or you can admit that you don't, and you can store up enough heat to do one or two things, and then you has then you has to quit. That's how it works. Is that is that uh that answer your your point, Matt? Yeah, no, he's at uh Marco said thank you.
+
+[34:02] And um we should go to break, actual break. Uh so mute yourselves for a second. Are we doing uh classics in the field afterwards? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.
+
+[34:10] All right, here we go. All right, right back. This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks, focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Well, when we got our first boxes from Bend to Table, uh, you know, we Nastasi and I shared stuff from from our boxes, and in her Spanish box, she gave me the Las Hermanas uh Pimenton, the smoked uh paprika. And Dax actually we was making green beans because he's trying to make vegetables.
+
+[34:39] He's like, I want to put paprika into the green beans. I was like, whatever. How about you use this one? The smoked paprika from uh Bent to Table. And he was like, okay.
+
+[34:48] And he put it in. He's like, Dad, these are the best green beans I've ever had in my life. Go to Bend to Table.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. By the way, we're back, right?
+
+[35:06] We're back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dax does not talk like that.
+
+[35:10] Again, I always had to like people like don't know me. Like, I only have like one or two voices that are used to imitate other people. Everyone in your entire world doesn't sound exactly the same. That's for explaining that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[35:26] Well, you know, you never you never know. You never know. Some people might not know. I mean, uh, yeah, all right. Anyway.
+
+[35:32] Uh, so by the way, on the uh on on the on the flip, uh if you somehow have not had enough of uh you know yakking today, uh I'm going to be what time, John? 5 30. 5 30 on Mofad's, that's at MOFAD's Instagram. We're gonna have our unhappy hour where in which I will use milk syrup, which is a technique that's not in liquid intelligence because I came up with it afterwards, uh, to make a drink called Soft Cell, which yes is named after the Tainted Love Band. And uh yeah, what else?
+
+[36:08] Because what what are we pushing there? The membership drive? The membership drive, yeah. Which is going up through Friday. Going up Friday, yeah.
+
+[36:15] Going to Friday, so it ends on Friday. Yeah, if you if if you still if you're one of the people who's lucky to still have their job and you have some money, right? You should you should support us here at Heritage, but you should also support Mofad uh so that we can get through this kind of terrible, terrible period. Um yeah, we'll talk more about the membership drive on the when you when you tune in to watch the Mofad unhappy hour in which I make the soft cell cocktail with milk syrup at 5 30. You said 5 30 out of the end about the memory, right?
+
+[36:48] Definitely check out uh the MoFad website and their Instagram account. Every day they're giving away something different. They uh cocktail books. Is it true the Downton Abbey book is actually one of them? Dave's book and the Downton Abbey cocktail book.
+
+[37:03] You'll get one of them, not I don't think them together. You'll get one of those three books. Nastasia. I saw your book and the Downton Abbey cocktail book, and I was like, oh that's now listen. What I have heard.
+
+[37:16] I want one of those. Listen, I don't know. I I have not seen this the Downton Abbey cocktail book, but what I am told is that it is an excellent book. I'm not even I'm not messing around. Yes, I've I hear that it is a very well-written book.
+
+[37:34] Oh yeah, they came and did a talk at MoFad when the book came out. Who wrote it? Really well intended, yeah. John, who wrote it? Uh I can't remember their name.
+
+[37:45] It was a couple of different people. There was one cocktail. Lyndon, New Jersey. London, London. Also, John, don't move away from the mic.
+
+[38:00] Like a cocktail historian from Linden? What the hell? Like it's so random. You know what I mean? Uh now I will uh there is also so there is a I wouldn't say long and storied, but there is a history of people who write cookbooks around movies, media, and books.
+
+[38:24] And so Booker, my son, uh, will only cook recipes out of one of the three different Star Wars cookbooks, which are all done with like Lego figurines and also so he has like a Yoda soda, he has uh like they're all named after things like that. Like there's uh uh forget they're all like Darth Maul this or you know whatever bar in the entire world is the entire Star Wars bar, apparently until the Star Wars bar in Anaheim, yeah, at the Disney, yeah. Um so anyway, so so Booker only cooks out of Star Wars cookbooks, and then um there the Master and Commander series, which is best known for I guess that Russell Crowe movie that was out there. There's a whole series of books, and and whoever wrote it, I don't know who it was, is uh extremely interested in kind of period nautical accuracy, and there is a cookbook uh having to do with all of the period kind of both nautical and non-nautical food items that are in Master and Commander, and it was written by historians, and they went to a bunch of historical kind of boat areas to figure out how to write it, including the one at Mystic, so there's that, and then uh apparently the Downton Abbey cookbook. So, you know, this is a this is a well-known genre of cookbooks that Nastasia is not to be sneezed at.
+
+[39:47] I'm not sneezing at it. I thought I was interested. You were being sarcastic, you're a bad person. No, I was just surprised about the classics. Classics in the field.
+
+[39:55] Well, so before we do classics in the field, uh hey, I will say this. Uh we uh a couple weeks ago or a week ago, whatever it was, we asked people for their suggestions and we had some suggestions in. I'm gonna mention them. Uh so John wrote in, no relation to our John, wrote in. Oh, by the way, uh John, you want to get in touch with uh Matt at Kitchen Arts and Letters and see whether he wants to do a COVID callin' classics in the field of his own?
+
+[40:21] Yeah, I can certainly do that. Alright, cool. So uh Dave uh requested uh listener recommendations for classics in the field. Here are three of John's The Art of the Cake by Bruce Healy and Paul uh I guess because it's French it would be bouga and not boogat. What do you think, John?
+
+[40:38] Bugat or bouga? Bugat bug. I'm gonna say boogats, poly bougats. Anyway, uh John says, Great for learning the architecture of cakes. Healy, this is what caught my interest.
+
+[40:49] Healy, the main author, was an American theoretical physicist before becoming taken with French cooking, and there's apparently no information about Bruce Healy on the internet. Now, I uh I also was not able to find anything. However, I found out that Shirley Corheer wrote the introduction to that book. So I did, John, put a text into Harold McGee to see whether he would contact Shirley to find more information about Bruce Healy, assuming that I know I know uh McGee's doing well. I hope Shirley's also doing well.
+
+[41:19] Um second suggestion was La Cuisine, Secrets of Modern French Cooking by uh I'm gonna call him in the American Raymond Oliver. Give me some French on that, John. Raymond Olivier. Oh, yeah, yeah. Do that again.
+
+[41:32] I want to hear that again. Raymond Olivier. Yeah, yeah, baby. Anyway, uh so he says it's like similar and slightly more modern than the uh Pelop. I'm gonna call it Pella Pratt give me the Pella Pratt in Enconsé.
+
+[41:47] Pellaprat. Ah, yeah. It's just like having my boy. So there was a um in uh I forget what was his name. Uh Pierre Pierre Capretz was the guy's name.
+
+[41:56] He was a very well-known uh teacher of French, and he did a system uh of it of teaching French that and he was from Yale. And so, like, I lived in the language lab one year, like our dorm was in the language lab. And so we would hear all the language la lab stuff, and so I always had to hear his tapes, and he would say, you know, New Zealand enventé une histoire. And then he would say, Qu'est-ce que nous allons inventer? And you'd be like, Le Professeur, and he'd go, No, no, no, no, une histoire, une histoire!
+
+[42:27] Like that. And it was like, and so you're like, uh, I always have like the Pierre Capret's voice in my in my head. But I think they stopped using it because he unnecessarily used a like a good looking. Well, I won't I won't talk about it. But anyway, I don't think that they teach the Capretz method anymore.
+
+[42:43] But anyway, they're they uh New Zealand Enventé une histoire. Anyway, it's good to have someone who can bust out the real French, because you know, Peter won't do it. Peter Kim, uh, you know, everyone on this show's favorite punching bag would come on and I would try to get him to do the French stuff, and he would never do it for me, right, Stas. I don't know why. I don't know why.
+
+[43:07] Anyway, uh so uh La Cuisine Secrets of Modern French Cooking, uh I it looks really it looks really interesting, and the the pitch is similar to and slightly more modern than uh uh Peleprot Peleprat. Um and it has like a bun anyway, I ordered it just as you know, John. I ordered it, I'll take a look at it, and we can come and take a look at it when it is. By the way, you can get those are both still available on they're both over well over a hundred dollars if you buy them on Amazon new. Uh, but both are available for under $10 if you buy them used, which is how I do everything.
+
+[43:43] I buy all this stuff used. And his third recommendation was Gourmet's old Vienna cookbook, which you have as 1982, but it actually came out in 1959. I've also ordered a copy of that because I have to say, although you're calling out the art of the cake, which is like saying that French cakes, so the whole premise of the art of the cake is that French cakes are good. And we all know that's false. We all know it's Viennese cakes that are good.
+
+[44:05] So it's interesting that you bust out an old Vienna cookbook and then a French book about cakes. Because John, back me up on this. I mean, I love French cooking and French people know how to make cakes, but if you were going to say name a nationality with a cake, you wouldn't be like the French, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, the French make excellent cakes, but you're right, when you do trace them all back to where they come from, it's mostly out of Vienna and Austria and things like that.
+
+[44:30] So yeah. Because that is the epicenter of cake technology is Vienna, is Austria, right? I mean, like, that's like if I had to choose a European place, right, for like continental, in quotes, which was a thing back in the day, continental cuisine, like like continental, like pastry, uh it would be Austria for sure. Like, without any question of a doubt. Like the French have the savory side on lock, and the Austrians have the pastry side.
+
+[45:00] I mean, that's all there is, right? Yeah. The croissant even comes through Austria to France. Yeah, if it is something that is uh like uh, you know, a pâtisserie situation, then odds are the Austrians do a good job. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[45:14] Which is why, you know, Chef Jürgen at the French Culinary Institute was an Austrian guy. You know what I mean? Like, and he was, you know, he actually worked at the Hotel Zacher. So do you guys know about the Zachertort? Yeah.
+
+[45:26] You do, but do you guys know Matt? You know, Nastasia? Oh, I have no idea what that is. So the Hotel Zacher in Vienna makes a famous thing called the Zaker tort, which is basically translates as the Zacher cake, right? And so it's this famous kind of chocolate cake, and and it's one of those things like Colonel Sanders' recipe where no one person, only actually only one person knows the entire recipe for Zacher tort, and they they rip all the labels off, have the deliveries come at different times, and only one person knows how to do it.
+
+[45:58] So nobody, but nobody who has printed a Zacher tort recipe has the actual legitimate recipe. So Chef Jurgen David, our friend, who is uh one of the you know, um pastry or is one of the pastry teachers at the French Culinary Institute, right? He worked at the Hotel Zacher, and somebody said that he had given an actual recipe for Zaker tort, and he got an angry letter from his old compati, you know, his old pals at the Hotel Zacher, being like, you must not say this, you did not have the actual Zaker tort recipe, no one has the Zaker tort recipe. He's like, I never said that, I never said that. But anyway, he got like painted with the brush of saying that he had said that he had the authentic recipe for the Zaker tort, and nobody does.
+
+[46:40] Anyway, um, I mean, okay, John, as a as a as a francophone, be it Belgian, but not I mean, the Genoise is a is is a weak cake, right? I mean, like the Genoise is not a good cake. It's a good base. No, it could be better thing. I mean, it's not a good cake.
+
+[46:58] Right? Yeah, no, it's yeah, yeah, no, it's not. It's not. I mean, what do you think, Snell? Just weak.
+
+[47:05] Would you have a Genoise or would you have any American cake? I don't know what a Genoise is. It's like a sponge cake with no flavor. You have to soak it in booze to have it have no flavor. It's it's also it's also like has the benefit of being kind of dry.
+
+[47:23] Yes. Sound delicious. Now, every and then you speak to a French person, and the French person's like, ah, we're but you soak it in brandy or whatever, liquor, and now all of a sudden it's good, or you soak it in syrup, and it's all of a sudden good. Well, why don't you just make a cake that tastes good without soaking it in syrup and brandy? That's all I'm saying.
+
+[47:42] That's all. Agreed. I don't know. Am I being wrong about this? We got eight minutes.
+
+[47:47] Classic field. You guys are the worst. Hold on a second. Hold on a second, hold a second, hold on, all right. So what?
+
+[47:54] How are we the worst? I think people know how you're the worst. Seven minutes and 45 seconds. All right. So listen, I know I promised to do the uh the book of edible, and maybe I'll mention a little bit about that, but as I was going past by by my boy, uh, by my boy Frederick Roden Rosengarten Jr.
+
+[48:19] Um, while I was passing my kitchen, uh my uh bookshelf today, something caught my eye that I haven't picked up in in a couple of years. And I picked it up, I was like, oh snap, I have to do it. Uh there's a book called The Mary Francis Cookbook. Adventures, get this. And this one you can get online, by the way.
+
+[48:39] It's it's it was it's from 1912, and it's public domain, so you can get the entire thing online, unlike the Rosengarten ones, which you can't. Um Adventures Among the Kitchen People. Adventures among the kitchen people. So this book was published in the U.S. Uh, the person who wrote it, uh, her name was uh Jane Eyre Fryer.
+
+[49:00] Uh and it's just an amazing document. It was published in 1912, and she was at the time a teacher in New Jersey of um kind of whatever they called home ec at the time, domestic science or whatever they call at the time. And this was the first, the Mary Francis Cookbook was the first of a whole bunch of Mary Francis things. There was Mary Francis knitting, Mary Francis, like you know, sewing, whatever. Mary Francis this, Mary Francis that, all home ec stuff.
+
+[49:28] But the the conceit is uh that it's a children's book, an actual story, and the story's got its own craziness, and it's printed in in almost like uh it's printed in in two colors, like a red and black, and the printing is kind of amazing. And if if you're ever a fan of those kind of like woodcutty looking early 1900s um books, it is quite amazing, and the illustrations are amazing. But the conceit is is that it's a children's story contained inside of another story that is also a cookbook. And so what happens is that the mom, and this is it also has all the weird gender garbage of the time, and also some weird like race and vagabond garbage of the time, but not too heavy enough to make it so that you don't have you can't not read the book. So the the idea of it, and and here's my my favorite touch, one of my favorite touches, is in the front where you would normally write a dedication to a book if you were giving it to a member of your family or a friend, she printed, right, with a wood block cut this inscription a book for all girls who love to help mother, Jane Eyre Fryer.
+
+[50:39] And that's printed as though she's inscribing the book to you, which is kind of a sick move. Um anyway, so like here's here's how crazy it is. The mom, right, is sick, in quotes, and needs to go out to the sea to get rest and get well, end quotes. Now, in 1912 talk, this means that they're hyping the mom up on drugs, and they think that she's quote unquote hysterical and are sending her to a sanatorium. So this is like classic like anti-woman movement of the day.
+
+[51:10] Remember, this is right at the height of the reform movement, right before Prohibition took place, before uh women's suffrage has happened. So there's this whole undercurrent of the mom is taken away, right, to go heal herself in quotes at a sanitarium. And then uh the aunt who starts out mean but turns out nice, right, shows up and is gonna cook breakfast and dinner for the brother and sister, because of course the dad's not gonna do jack squat about it, right? And then uh, but she's not gonna cook lunch. And so Mary Francis is gonna learn how to cook lunch, but she doesn't know anything, and her mom's last thing she does before she goes off to the loony bin is to uh write a cookbook for her, which is contained inside of this cookbook, and from that Mary Francis is gonna learn, quote unquote, how to cook and how to become a woman, which is the whole idea of this book.
+
+[52:00] So it's all different levels of crazy. And but it gets even better because what happens is that she shows up down in the kitchen, doesn't know what to do, and much like Toy Story, the entire kitchen comes alive and learn and helps her try to learn how to cook. So you have a talking toaster, you have a talking fryer, you have Auntie Rolling Pin, you have all of these characters that are introduced in woodcut blocks in the beginning of the book as the characters you're gonna have. So it's got like uh who's your favorite guy, uh uh John from uh the the one from um Be Our Guest, Be Our Guest, Let Your Magic to the Test. Oh, Lumiere.
+
+[52:38] Yeah, yeah. So it's all like this and like Toy Story, but in the kitchen, teaching, and it's also got this weird undercurrent of don't tell adults, because they say if you tell any adult that we talk to you, we can never talk to you again. So it's kind of got all levels of creepy in it, but also all levels of awesome. And it starts out the very first recipe she makes is toast, right? And so she walks up to this toaster, and then uh she says, Um, all right, here's the here's the recipe, and this is what's important.
+
+[53:08] Cuts because the other amazing thing about this is it gives insight into what it was like to cook on wood and coal-fired ovens back in 1912 in kind of a run-of-the-mill, like middle, like mid-income mid-level house in the United States, which is an amazing window to kind of look into. Um, and furthermore, because it's written from the perspective of old cooking implements and from the aunt, it also gives insight into what the cooking was like several generations prior, back into the 1800s. So, from that standpoint alone, interesting. So it's like many levels where you can re read this document. Anyway, plain toast.
+
+[53:47] And this puts it to a line by the way, someday I'll do uh I'll do uh the Thorns book, uh uh, whichever one it is, uh, the main writers who have a whole section on toast, which was quite influential to me. But this shows how our idea of toast is not anyone else's old idea of toast. Toast. Cut stale bread into slices about half an inch thick, remove crusts, put into wire toaster, hold over fire, moving to and fro until golden brown color, turn and brown the other side. And the key thing here, aside from cutting off the crust, is the fact that they're using stale bread to make the toast.
+
+[54:20] So most of the time when people were talking about these toasts back in the day, they were talking much more about rusk style things, like softer but rusks, not what we would consider toast, which is fundamentally fresh bread in the middle and crusty bread on the outside, which is a whole different mentality. Our current mentality of toast has nothing to do with anything that people would have called toast back in the day. So anyway, so Mary Francis goes, let me see if there's any stale bread. I should think so. A whole loaf.
+
+[54:51] I'll cut two slices, and since I want it to be very nice, I'll cut off the crusts. I guess that will be enough. Oh, I do wish somebody was here to help me. There is somebody. I'll help.
+
+[55:01] This is the toaster talking now. Mary Francis looked around in amazement. Seeing no one, why, where? Why? Who are you?
+
+[55:08] She asked. I'm Miss Tea Kettle, said the tea kettle, lifting uh oh, it's the tea kettle, uh, lifting his lid very politely. Uh, I'm I'm gladly at your service. And then the saucepan and everyone else. But then the toaster comes forward and teaches her how to make toast with his own body.
+
+[55:23] So, Mary Francis leaned over and gravely put a slice of bread in toaster, capital tea toaster. He looked so funny standing there that she wanted to smile, but thought it wouldn't be polite uh to so helpful a friend. But when he said, slide up my collar in a thick, smothery sort of voice, she laughed aloud before she could stop, but turned the sound into a cough so quickly that toaster man looked up at her queerly, only a moment, and she pulled the ring up until it held the bread tightly in place. Now lift me over the fire, he demanded. Mary Francis hesitated.
+
+[55:51] She couldn't tell where to take hold of him. Never mind my this is where it gets creepy again. Never mind my legs, he said, as though he read her thoughts. I'll see to them. And he folded his legs up so close that when Mary Francis lifted him up, she could find no sign of them.
+
+[56:04] Oh, you'll be burnt, she cried, as she held what Toaster Man had called his head over the bright fire. Not I, he laughed. Not I, I like it. It's the toast that'll be burnt if I'm not soon turned over. So anyway, he trains her how to make this toast and then tells her to make what is called milk toast.
+
+[56:20] Now you might have heard of milk toast as any jerk that's boring, right? But back in the day, and we're right in the throes of when people thought that when you were infirm, read the mom, who's about to be shipped off to quote unquote get well. When you were infirm, you needed to have uh stuff that was super mild. So they took this toast that they had just made. This is the anathema to anything we would do now, and make a roux, add milk into it, and not like a rare bit with cheese or anything, pour it directly over the toast and resog it out.
+
+[56:48] And to modern years, this is like what kind of lunacy is this? But that was the height of sick person food back then. So you gotta read this book. There's also like a good section where uh there's a lot of anti-vagrancy, anti-Irish vagabond thing going on in one of the chapters. There is a uh mild racial slur used as the name of a pastry, which by the way, still happens in Europe for those of you that travel to Europe.
+
+[57:13] So there's a like there's a lot of uh there's a lot of good stuff to unpack in this book, and it's worth looking, looking at. You can pick up a real copy for about a hundred between eighty and a hundred dollars, uh, and there's reprints, and you can get it on the internet. Uh do I have any time left at all? No. Oh man.
+
+[57:32] Someone wanted to know, oh man, I'm all out of cash. Someone wanted to know, um, someone wanted to know uh whether they should get an excalibre or whether they should get a um a Zojirushi rice cooker, because they're primarily interested in doing uh chicken wing garum, which is from the Zilbers book, and uh black black garlic. Uh if that's all you're really gonna do, I guess get the Xcaliber. They're very different. Like, I use my rice cooker at least twice a week.
+
+[58:06] And I use my Xcaliber like three times in a row, and then I don't use it again for a year. So, you know, the the Xcaliber is gonna have temperature control, whereas the Zoji Rushi just does what it's gonna do. Um, so for that I would say get the X caliber. It's quite wide. Um, but you you're never I mean, like, you're never ever my wife regrets that I have the Xcaliber because it's so big.
+
+[58:33] It's on top of the fridge, but it's kind of big. You know what I mean? No one ever regrets having the Zoji Rushi rice cooker. No one ever. No one.
+
+[58:43] No one. No one. Uh so I didn't get to read about, unfortunately. Uh I was gonna tell you people that I already mentioned this that Brazil nuts, and this is from Rosengarden's book. Brazil nuts grow on wild trees that are over a hundred feet tall.
+
+[58:57] They weigh four pounds, and in high winds, they fly down and have like every year people get killed foraging for Brazil nuts when one falls, which is why you never collect Brazil nuts in wind or rain. So if you're ever in Brazil nut area and you're like, hey, these are Brazil nut trees, wear a hard hat, watch out, and if it's windy or rainy, get the the F out of there. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:35] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[59:53] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the Food World's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:00:14] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendtatable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Oh, come on.
+
+[0:31] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, but still I'm in my house in the Lower East Side. John uh John from Booker and Dax is uh up there in the uh Murray Hill. We got Nastasia. Where are you right now, Anastasia the Hammer Lopez?
+
+[0:49] Hell's Kitchen. Hell's Oh, you're back is still in New York, huh? You haven't gone back to Stanford. No, I was there, but I was I've been trying to work with Macy, so I have to be here. What do you mean?
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+[0:59] You still have to like socially distance. You just feel better when you're like, No, no, I no. We don't have to. Well, we're talking about it. We can talk offline about it.
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+[1:08] It's the work with Jose Andreas I told you about yesterday. Okay. All right. And uh Matt in the booth and the booth is in Rhode Island still, Matt. I am in my own personal hell.
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+[1:20] What? I said I'm in my own personal hell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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+[1:27] Your personal recording hell? Yes. Nice. That's I love that. Coming at you live.
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+[1:34] Yeah, nice. Uh, so uh we have I'll I'll bring him in now just so he doesn't have to sit there and not talk for a while uh while we talk about you know our week in review. Uh we have uh I've known him for quite a while. Uh it's first time on the show. Uh Matt Sartwell from Kitchen Arts and Letters.
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+[1:54] How are you doing? I'm well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, hey, listen. So for those of you, I don't know, if you've never been to New York City before, uh, then you've never been to Kitchen Arts and Letters.
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+[2:06] But uh, right up on you take the the number six train up to the uh what is it 96th Street stop, right? 96th Street, yeah. Yeah, and then you're like right on that hill next to the model shop. It's in a weird little block you're on, right? We uh we aren't met like many other blocks in the city now.
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+[2:26] Uh lots of small quirky individual businesses. Yeah, so it's like so you like you you go into this store, and you you know, you wouldn't necessarily know if you didn't know about it, but you go into the store, and as soon as you're there, you're like, oh my god, this is the best cookbook store I've ever been in. And this is actually what happened to me. So like uh sometime, Matt, you remember that book, uh, what was it? It was by a guy named Um Wing Wing, somebody Wing Scott and or and Dove, the The Bread Builders Book.
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+[3:00] Who wrote that? The Bread Builders, yeah. Absolutely. So this was, I don't know, this was like 2000 and when did that come out? Like 2000, 2001, something like that.
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+[3:12] Uh I might have even thought it was a little earlier than that. But uh maybe well, it was before it was before 911 anyway. I um I was trying to research baking bread. I was beginning to bread. This is maybe it was late 90s, I don't even remember.
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+[3:27] And I, you know, the online buying, you know, already existed. Uh, you know, it's relatively new, and I had found out on you know, one of the user groups about this book that this book existed, but I didn't want to, I needed to see it because you know, I'm one of those people that I need to see a book to see whether or not I'm gonna agree with it. And the subject of this book, by the way, and it it is a classic in the field, I think, in its own right. It was kind of a game-changing book, at least for me, was about building your own retained heat masonry ovens, uh, and kind of a style of bread baking that wasn't well known among you know average idiots at the time. This is when bread in the United States was really, really, really, really bad in general.
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+[4:13] Um, anyway, so I was like, well, I want to go see this book in person before I buy it online. I hear there's a cookbook store, so I took the trip up to Kits and Ar Kitchen Arts and Letters, and then I bought it immediately from them because I realized what a gem this bookstore was. And um, because not just the books, when you show up, the team at Kitchen Arts and Letters knows more about cookbooks than anybody else. So chefs go there, writers go there, and they don't just say, you know, they don't just look for a book they already know. They're like, what are all the books on this subject?
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+[4:54] What you know, how do they fit in with each other? What would you recommend? Plus they can find old books. So it's like it's it's it's like having a store with research librarians available to you kind of at all times. It's an amazing place.
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+[5:10] You need to go. Would you say it's accurate reflection? Yeah, I mean, that's that's a big part of the excitement for us is being challenged by the questions our customers ask us. Because I mean, we don't have it all like right at our fingertips, but we love going on the hunt. And sometimes we can answer the questions in a couple of minutes, and sometimes it takes a little longer.
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+[5:32] But uh yeah, I mean to go to sort of go down a different rabbit hole every day, that's what keeps the the job interesting. Yeah. I mean, uh, I mean, we've I know that everyone I know has thrown you uh uh curve balls over the over the years. My brother-in-law, Wiley Dufresne was always a a big customer, and he would always give you crazy tasks to to find, right? Yes, and uh Wiley is is good for keeping us on our toes.
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+[6:02] Um and when he has a lot of time on his hands, we uh we feel so uh and you you know you got you guys are shut down, right? Like everyone else, or no? Well, we're um we're filling website orders, so going in three days a week to pack and and fill orders and so forth. Um, but no browsing. But we're still answering lots of questions, uh helping people choose books, uh sometimes for you know obscure questions and sometimes very general ones, like you know, I want to start baking bread.
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+[6:34] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, don't you you're gonna trigger nostasia? Nastasia hates all of the COVID-based uh bread baking. No, no, no. Again, it's not about bread baking, it's about the couples that are like showing off their bread baking skills together.
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+[6:52] That's all that's why I don't resent Dax. I told you this, Dave. Yeah, but it's it's kind of the same hatred you have of ramps, though, no? But you like ramps now, don't you? No, no, it's way different.
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+[7:02] Yeah, I do like ramps. It's the over excitement about something that's been around for a really long time. Like it's it's it just seems you mean like their significant other. They're over excitement for their significant other? Yeah, who's been around for a long time and now they have to pay attention to that.
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+[7:21] No, I'm saying the practice of bread. Yeah, maybe that maybe it extends into that too, man. I haven't I haven't gone to therapy in six weeks, so okay. So the so I brought you on, obviously, for classics in the field, uh, Matt. But one other thing I want to mention, have you noticed this fact?
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+[7:42] So I was researching a um, I was researching a book, and I realized that a book that should not be rare is right now, like as of this week, $150. Whereas prior to the COVID outbreak online, the book was like $30. Have you noticed that there's been on stuff that's not exactly rare, but people aren't resupplying their their used stuff, so certain prices on crazy books are just shot through the roof? Well, online book prices are um are a baffling jungle, and there's all kinds of crazy uh stuff all the time uh that I see in terms of prices. You know, people uh put us crazy price on and just sort of you know wait for the greater fool to come along and and and buy it.
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+[8:35] And I also think that people are like sitting around and going through their cabinets and saying, Well, I don't use this anymore. I wonder if I could get some money for it. And they're throwing it out there with some absurd price. And then somebody else comes along and says, Well, I was gonna sell this for 20 bucks, but look, this guy's asking $55. Why don't I ask $65?
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+[8:56] And and then there are these bizarre price climbs on books that actually nobody's buying. I mean, the weird, the dangerous thing about looking at uh Amazon, for instance, is you don't really know that anybody's paying those prices. Uh I watch prices on books sometimes, and you see the same seller with the same book for hundreds of dollars for months at a time. So, and then you know, for us, somebody comes in and says, Oh, I want to sell you a copy of this book because it's you know $500 on Amazon, and maybe it's not really getting $500. So it's always good to be patient about hard-to-find books because you just don't know what to believe.
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+[9:41] eBay is a better place to see what the real action is because you can see what's sold and what people have actually paid. Well, like, how much is there still an opportunity to just like go find good books in like boxes of books, or is that is that gone the way of the dodo? Does that not exist anymore? Oh, it still happens. Uh, but it was never like you know, you were gonna buy a house in the Hamptons because you you went to a garage sale in uh uh upstate and and came back with three rare books.
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+[10:11] I mean, that kind of thing, you know, it's not you're not gonna find the declaration of independence in a thrift store. Um but people dream about that stuff. Uh, you know, we do a lot with selling older books. Um we we try very hard when we're putting out a list of of older books to tell people about them to give the story and the background. Uh we're going out later this week with an offer of a book that was from the personal collection of a guy who was uh exiled from Naples because he pissed off the king of Naples and he fled to England and decided the food was so horrible that he was going to improve the uh uh the British dining habits.
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+[10:56] Uh so he wrote books, he collected books, and we ended up with a couple of things out of his collection. So you tell a story like that about books, and people become caught up, they become engaged and you give them context. And that's hard to do that uh online sometimes if you've got somebody who's just going through a box and slapping prices on it. How much extra value is there on someone having owned a book? It depends a lot on who that someone is, uh and and also how much you can tell they sort of uh you know cared and engaged about it, but it can, you know, if the stories right.
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+[11:33] If you have, I'm just gonna make something up off the top of my head. I don't know that this is out there, but if you have a copy of Mastering the Art of French Cooking that Julia Child inscribed and gave to James Beard, that's gonna really amplify the price. And that's already a book that's carries a high price. Um so, you know, if she inscribed it to Beard, you know, I would say double the price of a of uh otherwise inscribed first edition. So so you're saying I should go out and forge that right now.
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+[12:08] Well, I'm not giving any uh anybody any instructions. I mean, I'm hesitant to even tell you about the book that I was interested in just because I don't want the price to get pushed up. Because it's one of those things where if even five more people want it, then it's gonna be a problem for me to get it when the time comes. You know what I'm saying? Because the book that I want to get is online scanned, but the A, the scanned copy is horrible, and I just can't stand reading scanned books online as opposed to having a real copy.
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+[12:40] You know what I mean? Yeah, it's it's the whole experience of reading online is is uh is different. In some things it works really well, but it tends to be with something that was written and formatted for that purpose, whereas a scan of an older book is it can be a real uh makes my eyes bleed. Well, maybe I'll talk to you about it offline. Yeah, and then because it it needs to be a classic in the field.
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+[13:02] This book that I'm thinking of, which I'm teasing everyone with now, is amazing. It's an amazing book, it's fantastic. I'll give this hint, which is not gonna give it away. It was rediscovered by Shirley Corrihir, and uh she came up because I had Harold McGee call her to find out information on the author of that uh French cake book that I talked about last week. His name name escapes me.
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+[13:32] He's uh what was his name? It was a two uh Bruce Healy and Paul. That's it. So, like someone on you know, a listener was like, There's no information on the internet about Bruce Healy. He's kind of dropped off the map.
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+[13:45] So I was like, Well, I saw that Shirley Corri here had written the introduction or the foreword to like one of his books, and so I was like, Well, Harold knows Shirley, and she's still going strong, apparently is still writing a book now, and someday we'll put would you say if I had to choose one of her books, would you do bake wise as a classics in the field or cook wise? I Harold says bake wise. I I I agree with Harold. That's that's where Shirley's heart is. Um we actually had we had a listener write in yesterday in the chat.
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+[14:20] Classics in the field recommendation. Uh they also noted your podcast was recommended to me by Matthew Voss of Marvell Bar in Minneapolis. He said it was his favorite podcast. He's listened to every episode since then. The book that they were recommending was Cookwise by Shirley Garer.
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+[14:36] Well, we're doing we're gonna we're we're thinking bakewise. I've looked I've only met her once or twice, but she's an amazing person. But anyway, so she rediscovered when she was or I should say she wrote about and allowed other people to discover. I'm sure she had it in her collection a long time, this book. So it's only readers of Bakewise who by the way, which right now is currently at a relatively high price and is it is scarce as a used book, which is kind of interesting for a book that's so recent, but I think that's just a COVID-related phenomenon.
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+[15:07] You know what I mean? But whatever. Um, but this book is just amazing. I can't believe it, but I can't. I'm not gonna pay $150 for it.
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+[15:15] You know what I'm saying? You should uh you should send me an email. Let's see what we can do. I don't even know what this book is. Yeah, don't worry, people.
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+[15:23] You all this will become clear if you continue to be you uh listeners of our podcast, as soon as I get my hands on a copy, then I'll do classics in the in the field. Because uh as of now, I haven't done any classics that I don't personally own uh a copy of. Although again, that could that could change. Like I've never done the gastronomic regenerator because I don't own a copy. I have scans, and that's in fact um early on, you won't remember this, uh Matt, but I I went to the New York Public Library in kind of like maybe 2001, 2002, pretty soon after I discovered your store, and with a really like you know, rudimentary at the time digital camera, got their copy of the gastronomical generator.
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+[16:09] And the gastronomical generator, for those of you that don't know, is a book by Alexis Sawyer, who is kind of one of that fairly early generation of there, maybe two generations after the uh French Revolution, French chef moved to England when you know France was exporting its culinary prowess like nobody's business. You wanted a French chef. Anyway, he was the French chef who had moved to England, had a place called the Reform Club, and wrote a giant book called The Gastronomic Regenerator, which was I learned about that because that was one of MFK Fisher's favorite books. And so when I was reading MFK Fisher, is how I got turned on the gastronomic regenerator. I went to the New York Public Library, which at the time had all of their cookbooks in the public library.
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+[16:57] They've since been shipped to Jersey, so it takes a day to see them if you want to see one of them, and sat down there for like four or five hours with a camera taking a picture of every page like an idiot, and then I printed it out and I brought a printed out copy to Kitchen Arts and Letters. That was many, that was decades ago. But um, how'd I get on this? What was I talking about? Gastronomical generator.
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+[17:22] Yeah, who knows? Um, so like I won't do a copy of that, but at the time the gastronomical generator was like a 400 book. Is it still like a 400 book? If you can find an original, you I think $400 would be a good prize. There are uh, you know, some scans out there and so forth, but they're uh the quality on a lot of those scans is uneven.
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+[17:44] Uh so you take the chances. Yeah, yeah. All right. So what do you guys think we should do? Should we do the classics in the field now?
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+[17:56] And then afterwards, if we have time, answer some questions. Should we answer some questions first and then do classics in the field? What do you guys think? What should we do? The the same person who wrote in with the classics recommendation of Shirley Corriher did have a question for you.
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+[18:08] I don't know if you want to group the two. All right. Is it a cookbook related question? Because while we have Matt on the phone, we should do some, we should. If we have cookbook related questions, we should do them.
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+[18:19] If anyone's going into the chat room with questions about cookbooks, as they say now is the time. Not a cookbook related question. So we could all right. I'll give me the question. Give me the question.
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+[18:28] I'll go. So this was from Mark K. Uh, he asks if you can make a reasonable argument as to why I would believe the calories my body absorbs from a given food are the same as the energy released by that food in a bomb calorimeter. Sure is not they're not. There's no way they are.
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+[18:45] Yeah, okay. There's absolutely no way that they are. That's like it's a bogus argument. That's why, in general, in general, the whole argument is banana llama. You know what I mean?
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+[18:56] Uh like the like the whole way that these things are measured is is is nut baggy. You know what I mean? I mean, that's basically what he was asserting, so okay. Cool. All right.
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+[19:09] All right, good. All right. So do you guys think we should do like a couple questions and then classics? You think we should do classic? What do you what?
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+[19:15] What? What? All right, so the first ever guest edition of Classics in the field, yeah. All right. Matt, take it away.
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+[19:25] What do you got for us? I hear you brought two classics in the field. I did. And they don't seem to be that similar, though I think they are linked by a very common thread, which is context. The first one is a book by Jane Grigson called Charcuterie and French pork cookery.
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+[19:45] It was originally published in the mid-1960s. For people out there who are looking around, there was a US edition with a slightly different title called The Art of Making Sausages, Patees and Other Charcuterie. And this is a book that has been continuously in print for 50 years. But it is passionate, it is careful, it is sometimes very offhand about what you might be willing to do and what you might be able to obtain. But it's also incredibly informative about the way French people handle pork.
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+[20:35] And it's the result of years that she and her husband spent living in a little town in the Loire called Trot, which was a village that's still notable for the fact that it has a lot of troglodite homes, houses that are built into cave walls in the stone of the book, Grigson is talking about what you would find, how you would find these different dishes in uh charcuterie shops in France. Uh she's telling you about how a home version might differ from what you get on the shop. And she's just taking your interest incredibly seriously when it comes to handling handling cork and preserving it. So interesting thing about this book, and I remember um many years ago, this was oh no, 2004, maybe 2005. Um I was working for food arts uh at the time, and uh the the book Charcuterie, the kind of uh Rulman Poulson uh book was not yet out.
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+[21:52] It was it was in galleys, and I had gotten a galley and I was asked to write about uh books on charcuterie, and at the time, before the that book came out, uh my copy says is called The Art of Charcuterie. I have the 1991 Echo Press paperback edition. Um it uh it was the only book available, right? And I think I even asked you, like except for the extremely professional um, you know, that that French that French professional set that was translated in it was like $150 a book or whatever. It was the only available book.
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+[22:32] Yeah, the cotton soap. Yeah. Um so it was kind of amazing that this was the only book available. I remember at the time I was really young when I I read it, and it made me a little bit nervous because like all of the recipes, and I'm I wanted to, you know, now that I have you, I'll ask you, the recipes for nitrates and nitrites, they all recommend, uh at least the ones that I remember recommend saltpeter as an ingredient. And is that just a bad translation out of the French?
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+[23:03] Was she actually, or was she actually specifying saltpeter, which is what everyone prior to the 90s used to recommend for curing? Like what do you think the deal is with with that? I think she was actually specifying it. I mean, she gives instructions on going to the chemist to get it. Uh that was that was in common usage.
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+[23:27] Yeah. Huh. Because I mean, I remember that would be that was one of the reasons why I was kind of loath to do a lot of the like kind of longer cured things was because of the specification of again. I was also young and cocky at the time. I didn't, I couldn't like look past my own generation.
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+[23:47] You know what I mean? Uh, because you know, when I first got this book, which it was sometime in the 90s, you know, I was still in my 20s. I was like, what does anybody else know? You know what I mean? Uh I and I probably haven't reread it since 2000, since since about 2003, 2004.
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+[24:07] So I think I should go back and and reread it. I think one of the interesting things about America is we tend to focus on the cultures that we learn things from. And especially after the charcuterie book that you know Poulson and those guys put out, and the wave of Italian stuff that happened and kind of the Salumi craze, a lot of people's focus on cured meats in general is very Italian now in the in the US. And I think maybe that's another reason why a lot of people don't know this work, which was much more focused on kind of French. You would think that French would be the charcuterie to be just because of the huge range of charcuterie, but really in the US, we tend to focus more on Italian products.
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+[25:04] What do you think? I think that's very true. I mean, it's been a sexiness to um uh Italian foods that was coming starting to come on strong in the 90s, and I mean it's continued uh to be with us. There was a point in the 90s where I think publishers were just slapping the word Italian on anything and putting it out there, and that's that's fallen back now, but uh people overlook the fact that you know we're in English, we're using a French word to describe to describe these products. Um there is a uh a comfort level in this book with with curing meat that uh that speaks of a really long acquaintance.
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+[25:44] She talks about uh, and my French pronunciation is not strong, so forgive me, uh a salar, which is basically a brine crock uh that she kept uh on the counter, into which she would she would add things and just leave them there mixing together. So she sort of recommends starting out with a five-pound loin of pork, uh, a boned leg of pork, a hawk, a two-pound piece of pork belly, and then what she calls a shifting population of trotters, eaters, tails, pieces of pork skin, and anything else the butcher throws in for a copper or two. And this was the thing she would reach into and pull pieces out and use as needed. We don't approach uh meat curing that way these days. We've been uh made afraid of it, uh, and possibly for good reason, but it's uh it's a kind of uh intimacy with the food that uh that has been lost as we've become more regimented, more uh more disciplined in our uh in our approach, and the the very specific temperature of the very specific uh salinity of the water.
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+[26:59] That's not what she was doing, and that's not what the women she was learning from. Right. And she well, the other good thing is she's a good writer, you know what I mean? Like you want to read the book. And this is the only like, how come she don't think she's maintained her fame among the general public?
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+[27:16] Is because she was writing such specific books like her other books, The Mushroom Feast, any good? Beautiful. Well, I mean, that this is I think one of the things that's uh if you were to if you have a listener from the UK, everybody there knows Jane Griggson. Uh her work has stayed in print there, it's commonly available, it's highly revered. Um, you know, she died uh fairly early in 1990.
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+[27:39] She had cancer. Um, but she was uh a writer for The Observer, she was a weekly columnist. Uh so it's a it's uh to a degree the way Elizabeth David is a particularly well known here versus the UK. Uh she never quite broke out of here. So uh the famous French ham.
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+[28:00] I'm gonna look at this one section of the book. This uh the famous French ham, uh Jambon de Bayonne. Uh, I've always been interested, I've only had it a couple of times, but she has the first English recipe I've ever seen for it. So, for those of you that don't know, in the I became kind of obsessed with cured hams long many decades. Anyway, this is it.
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+[28:26] Uh so this is her simplified version. Here's a simplified version to be attempted after after the hay harvest in a dry summer. Alright, so this to give you an idea of the way she writes. One leg of pork, two, and then she has dry salting. Notice she doesn't say dry brining because that doesn't exist.
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+[28:45] There is salting and then there is brining. I don't understand why there has to be a word dry brine. Do any of you guys understand that? No. There's salting and there's brining.
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+[29:01] Whatever. Uh two pounds salt, two tablespoons of saltpeter, half pound granulated sugar. She then has a brine with red wine, and then specifies six cups soft or rain water, uh, another three tablespoons of saltpeter, block salt, sea salt, rosemary and olive oil, and then I'll just read a little bit. She goes, if you have a ham from a newly killed pig, you will have to beat it with a piece of clean wood. One of those old-fashioned butter pats are excellent for this.
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+[29:31] This brings out a certain amount of blood and also smooths out the wrinkles in the skin. So this is the kind of writing that she does. Thread a piece of strong string through the knuckles so that you can suspend the ham over a dish in a dry, airy place for three to five days according to temperature. You will find that a pinkish liquid runs out. Mop it off twice a day at least.
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+[29:50] If you were buying the leg straight from a butcher, tell them what you want it for. You will probably not have to go through the above performance. The next step is to remove the bone, which is not too difficult provided you have a small, very sharp knife and plenty of elbow room. So she just has a very nice kind of tone and lyrical writing and you know tells you to beat things with bats and then hang them over plates until a pinkish liquid comes out, which is all enjoyable. You should read it, right?
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+[30:16] Yeah, she has this infectious confidence. And it's it it's inspiring. Yeah, yeah. Enjoyable. I'm also going to is mushroom feast cheap?
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+[30:26] I want to pick that up. I like any sort of feast of mushrooms. Mushroom feast is it should be around fairly easily. There is an edition currently distributed in the United States by a British publisher called Grub Street. Do you say called Grub Street?
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+[30:39] Grub Street, yeah. But not Grub Street the website? No, no, this is this is older than you know than that. Grub Street the website is the new kid on the block. This is the um this is a publisher that's been around for for decades and decades and they're actually named for uh for the tradition in in Britain of doing work for hire.
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+[31:04] Uh all right so that do you want to then talk about your second one and then how you think they tie in or sure or we also we do have a question for you in the chat about cookbooks. Okay. All right which is just can you recommend an Ethiopian cookbook the best Ethiopian cookbook you guys are aware of you know it has been um one of the great excuse me tragedies of American publishing that Ethiopian cookbooks have not existed in English, except when self-published by enterprising Ethiopian ingredients. There was a book that came out last year called Ethiopia, by a man whose last name I am going to pronounce wrong because I don't have it in front of me. And it's a uh it's actually a very serious, uh detailed book with a lot of regional material.
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+[31:55] Prior to that, it was an enormous fight to find material in English on Ethiopian cooking. Um, and it's inexplicable to me in that something that is so specific and has such a strong uh cultural character was not well represented. Good question. This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks, focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. I recently received the essentials box, and one of my favorite items in that box was the uh Rancho Gordo Alubia Blanca beans.
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+[32:35] So they're like a little white bean, almost kind of like a navy bean. And I did it, you know, fairly traditionally. Instead of water, I used chicken stock, which I guess isn't really traditional. Uh, threw it into my rice cooker with uh some rosemary and a bunch of bay leaves. Some people don't really believe that bay leaves have a flavor or help with flatulence, but I know they have a flavor, and even if there's a possibility that they help with flatulence, I'll add them.
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+[33:00] Then you hit the rice cooker, you walk away from it, and you cut oh, I threw some garlic in too, a good amount of garlic. Uh came back in uh a couple of hours, rice cooker was done, beans were delicious, delicious. Go to Bent to Table.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code capital H, capital R, capital N, like Heritage Radio Network, to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bent to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Alright, so on to your second classic.
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+[33:31] Okay, so my second recommendation is a book called Flatbreads and Flavors by Jeffrey Alford and Naomi Doogood. The subtitle is A Baker's Atlas. And this is a tour around the world of the different flatbreads produced in different cultures and the foods that are eaten with them. And it goes through Central Asia, it goes through China and Malaysia, it goes through India and Sri Lanka, through the Middle East, through North Africa, through Europe, through North America, and it covers you know familiar things that you might think of immediately, like pita or uh chapatis, but it has, for instance, um uh anan that's made by the Uyghur people in Kashgar in western China. Uh it has a griddread called Murtabak from Malaysia that is um the dough is sort of flung and folded in this elaborate pizza-like preparation before it's being cooked on a griddle.
+
+[34:40] It has a cornbread from accordion wheat bread from India called tikkar. Um, it's it has all these amazing breads. Um flatbreads are basically the earliest type of bread that human beings prepared. Loaf pans came along a lot later, and they um they're integral to so many cultures. And the most appealing thing about the way these two people handled this book is that they give you a sense about why this bread in this place.
+
+[35:15] Is it the terrain? Does it you know require them to grow a certain grain here? Is fuel in short supply? Do they have to have highly efficient ovens? Do they have to be able to cook it over on a riddle over a fire as opposed to say a retained heat oven, which might take a lot of fuel to get up to speed and be useful only in a large community?
+
+[35:36] So they're they're plugging all these things together to show you where this food comes from and why it's eaten. Um I also happen to choose really enticing, exciting foods with lots of lots of flavors in here. But it's a uh, I think a beautiful tour of the world. Now, for those of you that don't know the these two authors, like that their whole McGill, right, was to they were a husband-wife team. They've got they got divorced sometime in the mid-2000s.
+
+[36:11] They were like a they were a husband-wife team, and they would they would choose a subject, right? The only one of theirs that I happen to own is Seductions of Rice, which I believe I bought from you. And um they would go like all over the world, but in generally in kind of Asia writ large, so at least of the book that that I have, I guess because it's rice, and um they would see how similar style of ingredient or ingredient, like rice or flatbread in this case, was translated to different areas, different cultures, different uses, and they would have a kind of a chapter on each locale, and they would have spent, you know, a decent chunk of time in each place, kind of learning and also taking, you know, great photos of what's going on. That's that's kind of part of it, right? Would you say that's an accurate?
+
+[37:10] It's kind of that was their MO, right? That was definitely the way with the later books. Flatbreads doesn't have the photography, unfortunately, that the later books do, uh, but it still has some pretty amazing storytelling. Uh there's an account of uh they're bicycling through uh I think it's in Turkmenistan and uh stop to watch a young woman uh who's firing up an outdoor oven and she's gonna be placing breads on the side of the inside of the oven. And as she's getting ready to do this, her mother-in-law comes out to watch her.
+
+[37:47] Um of the breads fall from the side of the oven into the fire, and the young woman is almost in tears as their mother-in-law stands there glowering, and they see all this without you know being able to speak a word of the local language. But it's a sense about how uh integral these foods are to these to these spices and these people. I have to say uh having a bread fall into the fire off the side. I mean, I've only done it with a tandoor, but having a bread fall off the fire, uh off the side into the fire, is an embarrassing and humiliating moment. It really is.
+
+[38:24] It really just it sucks. Because once it falls in there and it catches on fire, have you ever like a you know, if you have you guys watched The Simpsons where Homer is cooking a whole pig and Lisa, whose daughter is turned vegetarian, and so she somehow like ejects the pig, and the pig like goes on this like journey through the air and like all through all this terrible thing, and Homer's chasing it saying it's still good, it's still good, it's still good. Like that's what it feels like when the bread falls into the fire, and you try to think that you're gonna get it back. You're like, it's still good, it's still good, and it's not. It sucks.
+
+[39:01] It's burnt, it's got charcoal in it. It's ruined. You've ruined it. It's ruined. Anyway.
+
+[39:08] Um so one of the things I wanted uh kind of ask you, this is an interesting point, is that I wonder how this kind of in fact, uh, you know, five years ago, I mean, after they got divorced, I know they split, and uh he she's I think still in Toronto, right? And then he like moved off to Thailand and like kind of became a recluse and wrote a book that no one has read, as far as I know, called uh Chicken in a Mango Tree or something like this. Yes. About a Tai is that a good book, by the way? Um, it's a very idiosyncratic book.
+
+[39:47] There's really nothing else out there like it. Uh, but I think you have to already be pretty knowledgeable about Thai cuisine for it. I mean, he moved to a Khmer speaking village in Thailand and just like lived there for four years and kind of you know started living with a woman from that village, and then wrote a book about you know cooking up scorpions and whatnot, right? Is that basically the long and the short of it? Uh that's yeah, I think that's the short.
+
+[40:14] Yeah, that's the short, yeah. Um, but that book, like, no one, I guess because he he doesn't have a publishing regime behind him anymore, like that book didn't do any business, right? It was it was not particularly active. I mean, it was not well represented, I think, in the market. Um, and it was uh uh enough of a departure from what he'd done previously that uh people who knew his name didn't quite make the connection.
+
+[40:40] Right, right. So and uh so my question is is kind of in today's world, and by today I mean like the past five years, right? Where do you think this kind of project would fit in? Like the idea of uh I was I was thinking about it in terms of like w a lot of the problems when I'm looking at my own books going back and I'm for classics in the field and I'm rereading books that I you know I read twenty years ago, sometimes you know, twenty five years ago, and I picked them up again, or historic books that I've you know read recently is trying to kind of parse the meaning at the time. What do you how do you think a project like two white folk from Canada in this case, Toronto, like going around the world mining different cultures for their for their information?
+
+[41:38] I know that's not how this is actually working in the book, 'cause it's more just like they're trying to thread the whole world together by looking at the differences in different applications of similar ideas all over the world. But how do you think that that project would be viewed if it was coming out today versus when it did in the nineties? I think it would still be fairly receptive because their whole attitude towards what they're doing is um is it's it's not patronizing. Um and they're not trying to say, Here we've improved this for you. Uh right, they're not appropriating and yeah.
+
+[42:14] I mean that the they would admit, I mean both of them together would say, you know, they're not giving you the recipe exactly as they got it, wherever it was they ate it, because you can't get the same, you know, flour uh that somebody who's making bread in the mountains of uh Tajikistan is getting. So they you know they had to adapt to what they could get in their in their home kitchen in in Toronto and to what they thought their readers could reasonably adapt. But they're also really always intimately in putting interested in putting you in touch with the culture that the food comes from, um, which is different than like say my writing a cookbook on why don't we say Ethiopian food, and saying, well, you know, here's my uh here's my uh ketogenic Ethiopian cookbook. You know, here's my Ethiopian smoothie collection. Um I think that kind of appropriation.
+
+[43:14] Please write that book. Please write that book. Yeah, the keto, the uh the keto smoothie Ethiopian cookbook. I can I can turn that out too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:24] Oh well, first of all, I don't I've heard it a million times. What exactly is keto? Is that just high protein? Uh keto is high fat. High fat, okay.
+
+[43:34] Uh now, are you familiar with the Midwestern? Of course you are, the the pie shake. Uh no, actually. I'm I'm intrigued, but I don't think I've encountered it. Yeah, and then there's a there's a Midwestern uh North Northern, I believe it's like Michigan, Minnesota, that kind of area where like there's a number of restaurants where when you order a milkshake, you're like, yeah, yeah, you want a slice of pie in that, and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[44:01] And then they like throw pie into the milkshake and you blend it in. It's a pie shake. All right. Okay. So that just that that exists.
+
+[44:09] That's a thing, right? Uh, you know, just take that for what take that for what it is. Then so I would assume that your Ethiopian shake book, you would be throwing injira in and doing like pie shake with injira in it, so that you would have the full injira as though you were eating an Ethiopian. By the way, for those of you that I don't know, never been to an Ethiopian restaurant, injira is the bread that you, you know, that the tip the in the old days was made exclusively with Teff, which is a grain from Ethiopia. Now in the US, you're lucky if there's any freaking Teff in your stuff at all.
+
+[44:49] But I but Peter Kim, show's favorite punching bag, and the emeritus uh director of uh or the you know former director of Museum of Food and Drink, he uh says that if that most Ethiopian restaurants, at least in New York, if you call them a day in advance and say you want a hundred percent Teft, that they'll do it for a for a fee, which is a good thing to know. Um, but anyway, so that's the it's the flatbread that they use, which I know I looked up at the table of contents of uh the flatbread book that you were talking about, classics in the field, there is an injira recipe in it. Is there not? There is, yeah, it's actually mentioned on the cover, right? Yeah, so yeah, so you would have to have injira blended into each one of your Ethiopian smoothies, I think.
+
+[45:34] Yeah, that would probably destroy the whole ketogenic thing, but you'd have to do one or the other. Two different projects. Two different projects. But uh we yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the like what's the uh what's the name of the it just popped out of my mind the Ethiopian Mead?
+
+[45:51] Oh my god, what the heck? What's the name of it? Just went out of my head. Anyway, yeah, because that's also not ketogenic. I don't I don't feel like maybe it's the most ketogenic.
+
+[46:02] Although maybe I think they're two separate books. I think your Ethiopian Shake Book and then your Ethiopian keto diet book are maybe two different. Right, so it'll take me two weeks to write. Two different books. Don't yeah, you don't want to you don't want to sell this series short.
+
+[46:15] You want to milk it for all it's worth. Um we don't have a ton of time. We have five minutes left, but another question from the chat, quick one. Uh Devin is asking Matt, what is the most humorous cookbook he knows of? Oh god.
+
+[46:30] Okay. So um this is a wide topic, but look for a book called Bull Cook by George Herter, which was originally the animal? B-U-L-L, yep. C C O O K. Published in the early 60s.
+
+[46:46] Um it's around there was an Echo Crest that a reprints in the mid-90s for that as well. Um it is the most hilariously confident assertive book you've ever met. Uh it contains Chateaubriand's recipe for Chateaubriand. It is um uh page after page after page. This guy who ran a sporting goods company in Minnesota, if I remember correctly.
+
+[47:14] Yeah, herders. Yeah, is just laying it down. And there's absolutely no reason to believe that he's right, but he is so so self-assured uh about everything he says that um it's yeah, he is uh wrong about I didn't see one of his one of the bull uh one of the bold cookbook, we did one of the three volumes as a classic in the field early early on, like a year ago, and everything he says is pretty much wrong, except for I have cooked some of the recipes and they've worked, but like, yeah, yeah, all of his assertions are incorrect. He also really, really has a lot of kind of like uh he hates Hollywood, he hates magazine writers, he has some kind of unfortunate things to say about women. I mean, he is an unhe is he is he is a weird was a weird dude.
+
+[48:12] You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, this is this was a guy who 60 years ago couldn't get a mainstream publisher to release his book. Um, so he's self-published. Um, so he he was definitely a fringe character to begin with. You are maybe the only person to ever admit that they've cooked from the book.
+
+[48:30] Yeah, I have cooked from the book. I have cooked from the book. And uh I mean, I thankfully have not had to follow it's the only cookbook I own with advice on how to survive a hydrogen bombing. And it's just it's so weird. Like it's also like the one thing I've never tested is he's the one that told me how to uh how to how to kill a snapping turtle.
+
+[48:54] He's like, there's two ways. Are you familiar with the two ways to kill a snapping turtle, Matt? I don't think I I read that part. So you can hold a stick out, and if you're lucky, the turtle will bite the stick and you can chop its head off. The alternate way is to is to stick your finger in its nether region, and then that will surprise it, its head will pop off and you can chop the head off.
+
+[49:16] I I bet it would surprise you. Yeah. Surprise. You know what I mean? Woohoo!
+
+[49:22] Oh god. Boom, snap. Yeah. This is an amazing delayed prank on the part of the author. Yeah.
+
+[49:29] Yeah, right. I mean, uh, yeah, he calls, he says that every he's like uh he I don't know whether I mentioned this on air, but like uh one of the things that sticks out in my head is he describes Palm Springs, and he loves Palm Springs, except for he wishes that every person in it would be dead. You know what I mean? He calls and he says really terrible stuff, like really terrible stuff about the people in Palm Springs, but he loves it. And he's been to all of these crazy restaurants, they are worth looking at.
+
+[49:58] Um, I actually have another classics in the field question from Instagram. Neil Hersell wrote in and said that his classics in the field suggestion is imbibed by Dave Wendrich. He said, even though this book is not very old, it's a must-read for all bartenders. He says a few years ago, I feel like reading it was a given, but he feels it is somewhat fallen by the wayside with younger bar staff. I think this is the problem in general, is that as you get older, uh Neil, as we all get older, we realize how short the memory is of the generations that come after you, and how much they kind of want to make their own way and ignore in certain ways, like kind of like the kind of the people that we think are giants.
+
+[50:39] I mean, Dave Wonders is still revered in the bar world as far as I can tell, and I and people are still reading it. But what what do you think, Matt? Have you seen? I mean, that book still sells really well, right? It does sell really well.
+
+[50:50] It's I mean, it's I don't think we have a rival to it, but I I understand the process you're talking about by which new things come along and they sort of you know shoulder aside things that have been around, and they may not be of the same quality, but they still they're new when you have an author who's you know out there beating the drum and waving the flag and saying, Hey, look at my knee, look at my book. Um, but if somebody comes to me with a question about you know American cocktail history, that's gonna be the first thing I call off the show. Of course. Um I mean it was it was the book. First of all, it was the only book that had done that.
+
+[51:31] It was the first book of its kind like that. I'm sure other people have done things like that now. You had um, you know, Ted Hayes Lost Ingredients and Vintage. What was this book called? Lost, what was it called?
+
+[51:43] Forgotten cocktails or something. But anyway, but that was it. I can picture it, but I don't have it at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[51:48] That's a great it's a great it's a great book, but it's a different that's a a different thing. It wasn't kind of a serious history, you know what I mean? Um yeah, it was it was a a recipe collection with with with strong uh supporting notes, as opposed to Dave's, which was a history with recipe. Correct. Um we gotta uh we we gotta bounce pretty soon here.
+
+[52:11] Any final items? Huh. All right, let me answer this question real quick so that I can say I answered a cooking question, uh, other than how to chop the head off a snapping turtle, which I feel will help somebody out there in cooking issues land. Somebody is gonna get their finger dirty preemptively handled that one. Yeah, somewhere somewhere this week, someone's getting their finger dirty, but that turtle's gonna get the worst end of it.
+
+[52:33] Um Jeff Clark wrote in on the chat room. I recently moved into a home with a built-in wall microwave. It's nice, but much more powerful than the countertop units I've used in the past. And I keep burning my popcorn before I can pop most of the kernels. What is the ideal wattage for a good microwave popcorn?
+
+[52:52] This I don't know. Uh, but then you say this. My understanding is that the effective wattage is proportional to the power setting on most microwaves. Not true. Not true, Jeff.
+
+[53:03] Not true. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very few microwaves actually provide proportional power. Instead, for those of you that have microwaves, think about what happens when they're working. When you put them on high power, you turn it on, and you hear this, and then you hear the thing going, right? And then when you put it on lower power, you hear.
+
+[53:30] Because what happens is they're actually turning the magnetron on at full blast, but uh lower power cycles are only keeping it on for a shorter period of time. It's in fact not proportional at all. Microwaves are always, except for I think either Panasonic or Sharp made one that actually was proportional power, but they're on full blast. They're just using um a duty cycle, and because it takes a certain amount of time for magnetrons to fully come up to power and put out, you know, the energy that they need to put out, right? Uh, they don't switch them off and on very quickly.
+
+[54:06] So they don't work like like a like a like a pulse width modulation to get the to get the the power. So, like, you know, when I'm doing a uh uh a light emitting diode off of let's say an Arduino or something, right? I'm turning it on full power and I can flash it off and on real quick to make it look like it's dim, even though it's actually uh you know it's just flashing real fast. Microwaves can't do that. So uh a high power microwave is always putting out high power microwaves and just doing it in doses.
+
+[54:33] Now, that said, you could probably turn it down, and that's gonna be fine by your popcorn. But there's another way to do it. Microwaves try to dump all of their energy into the food that's inside the microwave cavity at the time. Now, some some effed up things happen. For instance, as soon as a certain part of the food gets brown, carbonized at all, brown or black, that that is a huge acceptor of microwave energy.
+
+[54:59] And so preponderance of the microwave energy will get absorbed in that. So once something does burn in a microwave, it tends to burn hard and then light on fire. That's why you could take grape halves, cut them in half, leave the skin connected, and get those fireballs because you dehydrate and brown that one little section, and then it can start to carbonize and stuff can fly off. Or why if you have like a little burning match and you get that little wooden tip with a little bit of charcoal on it, you can get those huge fireballs out of it because all of the microwave energy is gonna get focused on the place with the char. Okay, now that aside, also if you really think it's too high powered, you can stick what's called a moderator into it.
+
+[55:42] And it's real simple, just put a glass of water into the microwave along with the popcorn. Uh, figure out how much water you need to add, and that water will absorb a certain portion of the microwaves and make your microwave oven seem less powerful. And Jeff, I hope I've fixed your popcorn problem because first of all, you should be buying a whirly pop and making whirly pop popcorn during these times of COVID because clearly whirly pop popcorn is superior to microwave popcorn, no matter what my son Dax tells you. Uh, but uh it is terrible to be caught in this Netflix binge time without a source of popcorn. Am I right, guys?
+
+[56:20] Tragedy. Yeah. Right? I mean, can you imagine not having popcorn now? I can't even imagine it.
+
+[56:25] Yeah. So someone also wrote this in. This is uh Matt Clems. This is the day of many Matt's. Um and I'll just uh I'll just say this.
+
+[56:36] I'm not gonna answer Matt your question this week because I don't have time on your Gaggio espresso machine with an Olka pump. Uh we'll just tell you this. Uh yeah, it's a little more complicated, but I understand I'm gonna answer it next week because I don't want you to be without espresso during the times of COVID, okay? Uh just replace your Olka pump for now, and I'll talk to you more about pumps later. You can get Olka pumps relatively inexpensively.
+
+[57:02] Olka pump, by the way, guys, is the is the vibratory pump that's inside of most home espresso machines, including Gaggio, the Ranchillio, Sylvia, etc. etc. We'll talk more about that later. But wrote something very nice. He said, thanks for the show.
+
+[57:15] There's nothing quite like cooking issues, part how to cook, part soap opera, part frat party, and part repair manual. Hmm. Today he came for the repair manual, but unfortunately, Matt, I don't have time to give you your question. It's due worth. So I'll come back to that next uh next week.
+
+[57:33] And uh anything you want to say, Matt from uh Kitchen Arts and Letters on the on the way out. I'm super excited to have you on. Um for any of you, like go to their website, go to their store, support local bookshops. I mentioned last week that uh in my book, which you thankfully sell there, I gave a uh a recipe that is only given out in um the copies that you buy at Kitchen Arts and Letters. So, I mean, you really need to support um what they do.
+
+[58:03] Um, go check them out when they reopen. But you got any any uh stuff you want to say to the crew on the way out. Uh, you know, thank you guys so much for uh having me. I could talk about like this stuff forever, so it's good to have other people around. So I don't know Oh, wait, one last thing, one last thing.
+
+[58:17] Oh my god. You were gonna say how you were gonna tie together these two books. The the Oh, it's just it's it's the context. That that the that all this food fits into where it comes from. These are authors who tell you why this food is done this way and who makes it.
+
+[58:32] Uh and I think that gets left out of a lot of books these days. It's just a recipe collection with uh, you know, lots and lots of recipes, and nothing that really tells you why something gets made a certain way. All right. And I don't like that is a good way to tie them together. And this has been the classics in the field kitchen arts and letters cooking issues.
+
+[58:57] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[59:16] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[59:38] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:01] Looking for a fun night out? K1 Speed puts you behind the wheel for an adrenaline filled time you and your friends will never forget. Off the track, the fun keeps rolling with arcade games, great food, and drinks. They even have private party rooms for your birthday parties and corporate outings. Race hard, laugh harder, and claim your spot on the podium.
+
+[0:24] K1 speed. More than racing, it's an experience. This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B E N T O T A B L E dot com.
+
+[0:43] And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Lower Manhattan. Well, Matt's in Rhode Island and John's in Murray Hill and Jackson, Brooklyn, and we have a special guest, Angela, who'll get to is in Lincoln, Nebraska. Not Roberta's Peteria, because none of us are open and no one's in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[1:17] Welcome. Welcome to the show. Oh, the uh blue angels, I guess, are outside, so there's some fighter jets going over my uh going over my house. You know. Burning up.
+
+[1:32] To pay the respects for your work on cooking issues, Dave. That's right. That's right. That's right. Because there's nothing I want more than to be trapped inside and to hear thunderous jets overhead and not actually get to see them.
+
+[1:45] You know what I mean? You're welcome. Yeah. I got I got once uh um buzzed by a uh what was it? Was it a Hornet?
+
+[1:55] Like an F 18 or something in the Panament Mountains on my way to uh Death Valley, because there was no one else in the entire valley where we were, and this jet was like, there's something moving. I'll buzz it. And it was like right over the car, and I was like, dang, that stuff's impressive. Like, you know, fighter jets is impressive. Oh, yeah.
+
+[2:17] Yeah, they are. Yeah. So uh we are uh stashless today. We have no Nastasia Lopez because she's working with uh, you know, one of those Jose Andres uh you know COVID-related uh charities today, doing um coordination or something like that, helping helping people help each other. So whatever.
+
+[2:38] We'll give her a pass. I won't even ribber about it because she's doing the right thing. But in the place of uh Nastasia, we have wacky Jackie Shram, head bartender of the currently closed, but you know, hopefully soon to reopen existing conditions. How you doing? I'm doing all right, how are you?
+
+[2:56] Doing well, doing well, and of course, we got uh you know, new new regular on the show, John from uh from uh Booker and Dax, the new Spinzall and Sears all customer service guru. How you doing? And special, special, special guest today, and we have her for the whole time, uh long time you know friend of mine from back all the way back to my French Culinary Institute days, and I've never pronounced her last name twice the same way, so we'll do it and and I'll have her pronounce it. I think uh well, I'll tell you, I'll try to do it the way I think she pronounces it, and then we'll so Angela Garbitz. Did I is that the way you pronounce it?
+
+[3:39] That's uh actually perfect, yeah. Yeah, because we because we used to just call her like G botch, garbage, anything, anything other than her actual name. But Angela just wrote, she's the owner founder of uh Goldenrod Um Pastries in Lincoln, Nebraska, correct? Correct, yes. Yeah.
+
+[3:59] And uh one of my super favorite people, and uh we can get into the kind of the story. Although you've been on their show before, right? Yep, I have. Yeah. Um, but she just came out with her very first book called Perfectly Golden.
+
+[4:14] Now, uh, you want me to give the the 30-second spiel on uh how we got to where we are? You want to do it, yeah. All right, all right. So I first what year did you go to the FCI? 2008.
+
+[4:26] Okay, so I first met you in 2008. You came to do pastry. So I used to have this intern program at um at the French Culinary Institute, and anyone who was coming in either in the pastry or the culinary programs in the six weeks per six month professional program, um, they could come and we would work on kind of fun new techniques and technologies. And right away, you know, Angela came and I guess you had taken a break from from college, or had you finished? You took a break, right?
+
+[4:56] Um, I did a culinary science program, and so we had to go, we had to get X number of culinary school credits, and so that was kind of I really didn't want to go to college, and I wanted to go to pastry school, and this was kind of my in to do both. And I had actually, I don't know if you remember this, but I couldn't choose a pastry school. And then a friend of mine showed me an article featuring new and popular science in the fall of 2007. Oh my god. And I was like, oh my god, this guy, this guy's so cool.
+
+[5:26] This guy's doing such cool stuff, and he's at this school. Little did I know. And so I went and did a tour at FCI. And I think you I was like, this guy's a you know, you are also one of my super favorite people. And I remember the first time that we met, you were in the amphitheater doing an interview with the New York Times.
+
+[5:48] And I was doing my uh tour. I think Jock was taking me around, and he's like, Oh, and this is Dave. I know you wanted to do that internship. And you like totally halted your interview with the New York Times. And you're like, hey, what's up?
+
+[5:59] What are you doing? Who are you? What do you want to do? And I was like, Oh my gosh, this guy's cool. He just shut down the New York Times.
+
+[6:05] Well, you know, look, honestly, like, say what you want. People can say what they want about uh like you know, educate culinary school education, but I know I was, and I think the entire school, especially back then, I haven't been back in a little while, but like we were pretty student focused. We wanted people to feel, you know, well, we actually did care. I thought we cared. I felt like we could yeah, for sure, and it really felt that way.
+
+[6:30] So I yeah, I ended up going to French Culinary Culinary Institute just because of the internship with you, and that's how I met some of my my best buds, actually. Oh man, well, it will I was I was super glad that you did. We were, you know, any time it was super rare for us to have someone in with any sort of um any sort of uh kind of science background or any even kind of affinity for it. I mean, it's it's it's a it's a funny thing. Like cooking schools are funny because they are an incredible cross-section of people, and they they only really sh mostly share.
+
+[7:05] And we had some people in who, you know, the whatever their parents were paying and they just wanted to be shoemakers, whatever, fine. But uh which is I don't really understand. Why why install shoemakers? Not an easy thing to make well. Shoes not an easy thing to make well.
+
+[7:16] Why do we install shoemakers? What is that? Who is we? Who is insulting shoemakers? Chefs.
+
+[7:23] Chefs insult suits it was like, hey, is this guy a good cook? Ah, they're a shoemaker. You know what I mean? I would rather I would rather learn how to make food than make shoes. That sounds really hard.
+
+[7:37] I think the implication is that they're turning food into shoes, like overcooking a steak. No, no, no, no. I don't think they're insulting a shoemaker. No, no, no, no, no, no. The insult was that they were merely a craftsperson and not an artiste.
+
+[7:50] So like a shoemaker was someone who like showed up at work and like just did what they were gonna do, and they did a good, you know, you know, work work work, you know, person's like job at it. They were okay at it, you know what I mean? But there was no inspiration, you know what I mean? There was nothing like there was nothing. They're the lifeblood of the entire industry, the people who show up and do the work well every day.
+
+[8:16] Yeah, yeah. But when you love that person, you're like, they're a monster, they're a crank, they're sick. And then but when they're just kind of like when you want them to be a leader and all they're doing is that stuff, you're like, meh, hey, shoemaker, you know what I mean? But again, I I think it's a false because making shoes not easy, making good shoes not easy, in the same way that making good food's not easy. Anyway, so I don't even know how I got on that.
+
+[8:41] So, anyway, so so yeah, you you come in, you do the internship, we had an amazing group of uh people at the time, and then you go, and by the way, uh you worked at like some amazing kitchens here in in New York while you were here. I mean, and like worked like a dog. You worked like a dog. You went directly, you went from either in class to like the internship and then off to work. I mean, you I don't did you sleep ever?
+
+[9:12] What was your deal? So that yeah, it's funny that you ask. It was a wild time. I mean, I was there and I knew that like I wouldn't be able to afford to stay after, so I was like, I just I'll just do everything I can right now. So we were at school really late doing the the internship, and I started doing a bread internship for a short time before I started class in the morning.
+
+[9:32] So I was doing either your internship or um at Jean-George until like you know, usually Jean-George was later until like midnight or one, and then I'd show up for the bread at like six and then do a day of class and do the internship. It was like five days a week, and then I worked at Jean-George on Saturday. So I would go home, and I don't know if you ever knew this. My the only thing I had to eat in my apartment, because I was eating everywhere else, was um kilbasa from a great um Ukrainian butcher in the lower east side, and I had beer, and so I would go home every night and have open a beer and boil one sausage while I got ready for bed, and I would lay in bed and eat half a sausage while I passed out. That's incredible.
+
+[10:12] I like that. I like that. That's which which which butcher. I can't remember the name. It was like U R D Z is what it started with.
+
+[10:22] Though is that the one that was on the west side of um the street. That's all on Second Avenue, yeah. I don't know if that's the one. Yeah, the East Village Meat Market. Yeah, that's a good one.
+
+[10:32] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh is that still there, Jack? Yeah. I used I the Kalbasa is excellent.
+
+[10:39] It's the best Kalasa. It's so good. It's especially a lot of Kobasas. I'm well, thank you. How are you?
+
+[10:46] Good. You know, today with the book launch. I was supposed to be in New York, and I was actually going to have a party at existing conditions tonight. Well, that was like my dream. That was the plan.
+
+[10:57] And it's nice that we can kind of still catch up together somehow. So let me let me just let me let me finish this though. The best kilbasa, Angela, is the one you have at two in the morning in your house. Yeah. That's always the best killbasa.
+
+[11:13] Yeah. You can't have the kiobasa you love Angela. Love the kilbasa you're with. Although I hate the, I hate the actually, I hate the premise of that song. I really hate the premise of that song.
+
+[11:24] Don't you hate the premise of that song? If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. Yes, we'll just song. Yeah. It's fine.
+
+[11:37] P dee tee tee did anyway. Uh doesn't make any sense to me. So anyway, so then you go back and then you develop now. By the way, for those of you that have never met Angela, like, what you know, not a picky bone in Angela's body. No pickiness, no, no nothing, right?
+
+[12:00] So when I learned that she had just like developed uh an allergy to dairy, first I thought she was kidding. I thought she was kidding me. You know what I mean? And then um she's like, no, I really have to change my my life around it. It kind of put you on this road that brought you where you are now.
+
+[12:18] You want to talk about that at all? Yeah, so I started a blog that I called Goldenrod Pastries in like 2013, 2014, because you know, I went to the French Culinary Institute. I'd been baking for myself my whole life. Everything was with butter, milk, cream, whatever. And like I love to eat and I love cake.
+
+[12:29] I love having dessert with every meal. It's how I was raised, believe it or not. And so I just realized that I had to start developing recipes that I could eat that didn't make me sick. Correct. So I started my blog and I started posting these recipes, posting pictures and pretty soon people started reaching out to me and saying like oh my gosh, well I can't have dairy either.
+
+[12:53] I can't have eggs or I'm gluten free. I'm 35 years old. I haven't had a donut since I was six years old. I was like oh my God, there's all these people who are totally being left out of like the food conversation. And as a chef like first and foremost like I want to feed people.
+
+[13:09] And so I started developing recipes and they started asking for birthday cakes and donuts and all these things that I had no idea how to make with their dietary restrictions but I just kind of started going and trying to figure it out because when you love to feed people there's nothing worse than not being able to feed them. And so I just kind of started and within a year of launching the blog I opened my first storefront um in May of 2015 and we are I would say 95% dairy free gluten free or vegan gluten free and I think what's really really cool about that is that most of our customers do not need or choose to eat that way. So we're making food that I think and I hope is really really good just because it's good. Like we use sorghum flour for our cookies and I think that makes like to me a better cookie than an I was eating with all-purpose flour, or like we use a rice flour blend in our pound cakes, and I think that makes a super tender pound cake. And you know, that I just found that there's a way to make food actually taste as good if not better, um, and still be able to feed more people.
+
+[14:18] Yo, Matt, was Bob's Red Mill still a sponsor of the rig? Not I know not our program, but are they still on the on the rate on the heritage at all? No, no, not currently they should pay Angela money because people don't know how to rep stuff like sorghum flour properly. You know why? This is why I love Angela so much, because right, she's got a a mission to to use it like or to not use or to be able to not use a certain subset of ingredients, but she always comes from a point of what's gonna make this thing more delicious.
+
+[14:47] It's never, it's never like some sort of goofy like BS like pseudo health mumbo jumbo. It's just like here are the givens of what I can work with. How can I make the best possible most delicious product? Not, you know, like and that like to have someone whose guiding principle is the delicious, but then also a kind of take on like this subset of of ingredients or take on certain constraints, I think is a really great attitude for today. And someone like Bob's Redmill, who you bring up in your book, should pay you some money.
+
+[15:19] That's all I'm saying. Yeah, we're we're working on that. Um, but I think like what's really interesting in like the interviews that I've been having about the book with different people is they're like, oh, so why did you choose like this health focus? And I was like, it's not about health. Like, if you look through this book and you eat our food, it has like a lot of fat and a lot of sugar in it.
+
+[15:41] And as like a dairy-free fat, I really like shortening for a lot of different things and a lot of different reasons. It doesn't have off-flavors like a lot of vegan butters do. And a lot of people just when they're making food for dietary restrictions or dietary preferences, they leave out the fat and sugar, and like that is when it starts getting a bad reputation. Yeah, that sounds terrible. Right.
+
+[16:05] Everyone's always known that shortening makes very good textures on things like biscuits and pie crust. But I guess the gripe, there's two gripes, right? There's the health gripe, which I don't care about me, whatever. You know what I mean? You know me.
+
+[16:20] Yeah. And then there is the neutrality argument, whereas like if you can have the flavor of butter, I would choose the flavor of butter over the some argue superior texture of shortening in some of those things. Where do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that butter has a better flavor than shortening, but if you take butter out of the equation, what you're left with is either shortening or butter alternatives, like vegan butter alternatives. And I personally haven't found any that don't create like a really intense off flavor.
+
+[16:51] And like when I started um baking dairy free and vegan, it was just awful. All I could taste was just like plastic. Well, and you specifically say don't use fake butter space, like don't use spray that has fake butter flavor. Yeah. Because it's terrible.
+
+[17:07] That's the reason why not to use it. It's terrible, and sometimes it has dairy products in it. Um that's another reason. But even if you know, spray in the non-stick space. But yeah, like those vegan butters for me, I just haven't found one that's like, I mean, both you're looking at also like cost effectiveness and accessibility.
+
+[17:23] And that's another thing with this book that I really think is important, which is like so relevant right now, is like financial accessibility for people. We have to get more people in the kitchen. Like, I think that we have so many people in the kitchen right now, and if we give them financially accessible and um and technique accessible recipes, that's like so great. Why are we trying to create recipes that leave people out of the conversation as far as baking? Like get in the kitchen.
+
+[17:51] Everybody wants to bake, make recipes, develop recipes that people can make with what they have, and with you know, hopefully an economic situation that you know it doesn't require the most money. For saying that, that's incredible. It's an epidemic in the cocktail world right now with people posting these recipes that are like, oh, you know, fat washed this, like all of these techniques that no home bartenders are ever going to use. It's like just give people simple drinks right now. Well, that's the other thing, but that's what we do for a living, Jack.
+
+[18:24] So then we're not going to be able to do that. I have two livings, but yes, yeah. Or we're not going to be able to do that. Like, I even know at the bakery, there's some stuff that we do that like technique wise or economically, it makes a lot more sense to do in a commercial setting. And while I was writing this book and talking to my editor and just thinking about like actually, would I feel comfortable as Angela Garbitz giving these recipes to somebody and saying, Oh, yeah, go ahead and figure that out.
+
+[18:49] But you have to go ahead, like, yes, you do have to like go out of your way to get some of these gluten free ingredients, but I I actually recommend to people commercially available GF flour mixes as opposed to buying like a ton of different ingredients because it is financially so inaccessible for a lot of people. So I think you have to like when you're giving the general public information about your your skill and your art, like what what can we do to to make more people part of the conversation and make them comfortable? And like we can use those really cool techniques and the really expensive products at home for ourselves. Well, also I I I noticed on on your things, and I was making a note of it to myself that you know you say that you've made all these recipes with commercial mixes, and so just you know, like your your go-to's that you do, you you use more one than the other, one of Bob Redmill's um flowers, and see New Life, Pamela's, and for a few things, King Arthur. But what I love about your book here is is that you're you say exactly why you use a particular flower for a particular application, and then you give the main ingredients in case somebody wants to do a knockoff or figure out kind of what is in those flowers to use them, which I thought was a great you know thing in the book.
+
+[20:07] But I was curious because you say you actually use them at the at the shop, and are those things still cost effective when you're doing it professionally, more so than just like trying to womp that stuff yourself, or is it that you like the consistency of the mixes or what? Um, for the most part, it is more cost effective right now. Um starting at the end of February and definitely going into March, we actually started making our own mixes because it became so much more expensive to buy these blends, so we did have to start making our own. But for the most part, like buying in the ingredients, and what you know, we have a super small space, which I know you guys can relate to, and it actually was like cost effective for us to just buy these already made. But as things change, as supply chains change, like we're definitely gonna have to look at that a little differently.
+
+[20:57] I know places like King Arthur do 50 pound sacks, but I didn't know Bob's Redmill did 50 pound sacks. Yeah, we get 25 pounds from Bob's Redmill. Um, and yeah, it's great. We go through so much of it, but um also, yeah, like the main ingredient list I think is really important because if you're looking at your local co-op, like I know my local co-op has like some brands like I can't find elsewhere, but if I'm some somebody looking at this book and I see this this blend at my co-op, I can look back in the book and say, okay, well, it primarily has this in it. And now I know that if Xanthan gum is third on the list of ingredients, then that's gonna be like a pretty gummy flour.
+
+[21:35] So maybe I should find something else. So I hope that it can be like a good guide for people and like teach them how to use what's available to them as well. Yeah, and so I like all of your recipes, you write down kind of which one of the flowers you use, and um, you know, I just would tell people I think it's a very good way to do things is to like let people know why you're using a particular kind of flour. I thought that was a nice, nice touch. One thing I have a question about is you write, and I've never used it before, uh Pamela's gluten-free, all-purpose baking flour, and you write in it that it's the hardest one of the ones to use that it can actually overmix.
+
+[22:15] And then I looked at the ingredient list. Over mix meaning you can overwork the because one of the advantages of gluten-free that you point out is that you know, there's no gluten to either over or underwork. So, you know, in a way, you know, it kind of frees you up in in in for some recipes in terms of worrying about it, uh, I know just toughening something like a cake or et cetera. But you write uh that this particular flour can be overworked. And I've looked at the ingredients: brown rice flour, tapioca starch, white rice flour, potato starch, sorghum, guar gum, and guar gum.
+
+[22:46] So, what is it that overworks in that? Like, I'm wondering what it is about that particular mix. It's the gum. The guar? It's the gum, and I don't know if it's how the gums take up the the liquid, and if they like I assume they just keep absorbing more liquid, um, but it just becomes a completely gummy mass.
+
+[22:59] So we use Pamelas mostly for like cake batters. It makes really nice like layer cakes. Um, but if you you know, you're trying to work out the the clumps in your batter, for example. If you don't like add your your dry and wet and dry and wet, like just right with Pamelas, that guar gum is gonna just like really kind of seize up. Guar is uh yeah, guar is an awesome word, by the way.
+
+[23:27] Guar. This episode brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. I recently received the essentials box, and one of my favorite items in that box was the Jimmy Red Grits from Geechee Boy Mill. And these Jimmy Red grits are, first of all, it would be hard to overstate how delicious these grits are, especially. I mean, a lot of you out there might never have even made grits in your life.
+
+[23:58] You know, if you come from somewhere that's not a uh a grit place. And uh, and if you have, you're probably used to just kind of buying grits in those kind of ground paper sleeves in the supermarket. And this is really not a comparable product, just the kind of punch corn flavor you're gonna get out of these grits, uh, is kind of out of this world. And uh, I did these in a rice cooker. I did them with milk, and then after they had cooked out, I folded in a little bit of grated cheese, some shrimp that I had cooked with uh with bacon.
+
+[24:32] So I crisped up the bacon, took it aside, cooked the shrimp up in the bacon grease, then took that, folded it in with some cheese, and uh a little bit of uh garlic and good to go. That was my kind of lighter version of shrimp shrimp and grits made with uh Jimmy Red Grits delicious. Go to Bend to Table.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Uh so one thing that uh we'll go back, we'll go back a little bit because we got into the weeds on flour and we didn't even get to talk about the kind of the basics of the book or this the stuff beforehand.
+
+[25:13] But in the very introduction, I think you have the the kind of pull out quote at the very beginning that kind of shows your attitude, which is the same attitude actually that we have at uh existing conditions, I hope, is that I want, and this is your quote, I want you to have a seat at our table. In other words, you want everyone to be able to come in to Goldenrod and enjoy what you're doing, kind of no matter what. Inclusive baking, which is I guess did you come up with that term? Um, I didn't hear it before me, but maybe some yeah, I think I did. So and I love that because that's kind of the same mentality that you know we have, at least this go around you know, now at XCON with terms of non-alcoholic drinks, is just why would you why would you not want someone to feel welcome, right?
+
+[25:58] For sure. It's like, you know, there's always gonna be some allergy or some restriction or preference that like you can't meet, which is so frustrating. But for the most part, it's like you don't want to turn people away, and like the joy that somebody uh feels and that you can see when they're like, oh man, you have something not non-alcoholic, and like who cares what their reasons are for not drinking alcohol? And it's like the same thing with dietary stuff. I always hear people say, Oh, well, you know, they're probably just faking it or making it up, and it's like, I don't really care.
+
+[26:29] Like, that's a person's choice. Like, if they choose not to drink alcohol, if they choose not to eat gluten or dairy or whatever, that's like totally cool. And that's none of my business. And my only goal is to make food pastries more inclusive for people. And I don't care what your reasons are of why you don't eat these things.
+
+[26:49] And that's your choice. And I want, I don't want food to feel so exclusive. I want it to be more welcoming. Yeah. I think that is uh everyone should feel that way.
+
+[26:59] Um that's wonderful. So, and then uh another thing it's uh, you know, I think it's kind of cool is that the you write predominantly, but is it all like you you have a woman-powered baking, right? And like most of the staff, or I don't know, maybe at this point, all of your staff, I know at one point I think all your staff was was women. You want to talk about that kind of that kind of business. My wife is the same way with our architecture business.
+
+[27:23] She has like runs an all of women's architecture business and she loves it. Yeah, so we were all um all women until about a year ago, and now we have a couple of guys working for us, which is super awesome. Um, I actually doubled my staff at the beginning of March, right before I opened my second location this year. Um, great month to open a second location. Um, and like the woman power thing, like I just woke up one day and realized that you know, I was in a kitchen setting, I was in a life setting where I was surrounded by all women, and not only did I feel comfortable, but I felt empowered and I felt um like these women were there to support me and not I, you know, as women talking to a group of guys here, but like as women, I think that you know, for a long time the idea was there was only room at the table for you know, one woman in each field to be doing well.
+
+[28:14] And I think that conversation is changing, and it's a really damaging and hurtful sort of commentary. But I think that you know, for me, feeling empowered by this group of women I was working with really allowed me to like be more creative and be more ambitious with what I was doing with my business. And so I try to talk about that in the book because I hope that you know, some people who read this, some young women who feel you know, a little bit lost or you know, hurt by other people in their lives or for whatever reason are looking for a little bit of inspiration and hope, they can sit down with perfectly golden and it can be something that really inspires them to uh not only invest in other women but also feel like they deserve that as well. But yeah, that's that's something that's pretty important to me. Yeah, I mean, and but yeah, I should.
+
+[29:00] I mean, I know she's not in the food industry is why she hasn't come on, but Jen, my wife, has like uh, you know, voiced a lot of the same thing. It's just kind of a different what she says, it's like a different feel to the to the business, and it you know, it's something that she thinks is super valuable. And I, you know, so I have to agree with her because she's right about 99.9% of the things. I think Jenny said I think that um I think Jen's pretty much right about it all. I mean, yes, I mean, she's maybe a little conservative on what she wants me to do with my phys physical human flesh sack because she's worried I'm gonna break it.
+
+[29:40] But um, you know, like I'm still upset, I'm still upset she didn't let you deep fry yourself. I know it. Well, the thing is, if if I hadn't lit myself on fire so badly with the St. George piece, I think she would have let me deep fry myself. But the fact that I so badly misjudged uh what it was gonna be like to catch on fire, um I think kind of you know, poisoned the well a little bit on um trusting my quote unquote engineering skills when it came to the safety of of my human form.
+
+[30:15] So I mean, I can see where she's coming from on that one. But I mean, I can't think of a more horrible demise than yeah, the fire suit the fryer suit failing. Like, can you imagine? No, that would be real bad. A leak spring and just having the vessel that you're inside of slowly fill with boiling oil.
+
+[30:34] It would be real bad. So, I mean, you know, Angela, you'll you'll sympathize with this. So I was using my I was using my super duper, you know, like ridiculously expensive waffle iron, also not a good time to have bought that waffle iron. But anyway, so like in a liege waffle, there's always melted sugar and butter in the waffle iron, and you just let it ride, and so like you know, last the waffle and waffle n minus one contributes its melted sugar to waffle N and waffle N plus one, along with extra butter that's leaking out of the double butter briotchi dough as you're making it, anyways. So I was trying to get something out, and I missed and dipped my pinky into the molten sugar well of the thing.
+
+[31:20] Oh nothing's more fun than a molten sugar burn. Am I right? That is not a good burn. They the first thing you always want to do with a sugar burn is like they told us in school, I always remember this. The first if you get a sugar burn on your finger, the first thing you want to do is like put it in your mouth, and that's the last thing you want to do.
+
+[31:39] Because your mouth is warm, you mean you should like I don't know, just a weird reflex. But you know what I did? I cursed. Yeah, I cursed myself. It was my fault.
+
+[31:44] I should not have done it. You know, I really think that honestly, you invested in that waffle iron at the perfect time because now you have Liege waffles whenever you want. Um, I think I ruined three just like cuisinar Belgian waffle makers making Liege waffles over the years because I just never wanted to like fork over the cash for a real one. Like that sugar is no joke. Yeah, but you know what though?
+
+[32:11] You like I would love for you to figure out the goldenrod version of the Liege waffle and get you one of them Liege waffle irons. Because first of all, like the things that they sell in the US as Belgian waffle make, it's an insult to the entire country of Belgium. Now, Belgium does now, John Matt kicked John off the radio program today. So, you know, he can't sit here and defend his Belgian self. But like, in the way that Canadian bacon that they serve here is an insult to Canadians and their what they call bacon.
+
+[32:46] Like uh Belgian waffle as we make it is a freaking it's a freaking insult, man. Well, when you come back to New York, you know, you can um I'll get the extra butter out of my iron and you you can we'll we'll run through some stuff. Sounds great. Uh now one bone to pick before I go further. You use cup measurements at the shop.
+
+[33:08] Oh, yeah. That is a bone that a lot of people picked with me in the process of writing this book. Um, yeah, I don't know. So sue me. Good answer.
+
+[33:22] I mean, I don't want to sue you, but I mean, I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just saying I I know you have at least one of the medium-sized hobarts, and you're showing up there with a cup measure and like leveling off and like whipping your flower bucket of so that you can get the loft exactly the same way each time and doing the roop dupa scoop drop and level in the real life, or do you have like a cup measure the size of my head? Um, well, we have obvious for sure converted some to just like you know, we use like some 25 quart containers, and so I know how many cups are in there. Or not 25 quart, 25 cup containers. Um, but you know, we're not doing a lot of leveling off. Um, we're just really kind of it's the wild west.
+
+[34:10] Well, you know what they say about Nebraska. It's the wild west. Possibilities. Yeah, the possibilities are endless. Endless.
+
+[34:16] I wish you guys had kept that motto. The earlier that motto is so much better than your new model. Here's a good Nebraska story Dave connection. He actually went to school with the mayor of Lincoln, Nebraska. That's true.
+
+[34:27] Lyrian, Mayor Lyrian, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How's she doing over there? She's killing it. She we have a really conservative uh state government who is uh really just going ahead and opening the state back up starting next week when our cases are like I mean, just really out of there, it's out of control.
+
+[34:49] Um, and so obviously not a good time to open the up the state, but Lyrian's holding strong and really trying to like keep her control over our city at least and um keep it as safe as possible. Well, she's uh she's good peeply. Say howdy for me when you when you see her. I will. One quick question.
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+[35:06] On the same page where you say that you use cup measurements, I'm still picking that bone. You also say something about um on your yeast doughs that they should be impossibly fluffy before they go in the oven. And my question is on proofing in general. When you're doing gluten-free, do you proof differently from when you're doing a recipe with gluten or not in terms of how much loft you get before you put it in to the oven? Yeah, so it's funny you pick out that term specifically because that was actually coined by Mindy Lavoff herself, one of uh the people who worked for Dave and was in the internship program when I was there.
+
+[35:41] Um, she coined the impossibly fluffy term. Um, so gluten-free for sure has a little bit in the recipes in the book, they have we don't do like a first proof, like you make the dough. For example, if you're making cinnamon rolls, you make the dough, and then you just immediately start um portioning it out and start rolling it out for buns. So like there's no first proof. Um, and then like what we do at the bakery is we put them in the freezer and we take them out and proof them as we as we need them before we bake them.
+
+[36:15] So it's definitely a similar process in the sense that you know we want to get some good rise. If you don't get good rise from your yeast products that are gluten-free before they go in the oven, that's when you're gonna end up with like a a hockey puck. And so I end up using a little bit more yeast than a lot of gluten-free yeast buns that I have uh recipes that I've looked at because you really have to make sure that you get that rise. And with a little bit of extra yeast in your gluten-free products, you're gonna you're gonna see that. So we still do the the rise before it bakes, but there's not a first proof.
+
+[36:50] Uh, one other question on ingredients before we go on to main main sections of the book and and whatnot. Um because one one of the nice things about the book is that there's a little checkoff thing calling what's called you do you where you say you can either you can make this recipe completely traditionally and some you can't some only you know don't work traditionally and you but you can you say like kind of which which ones you can do so it's like a pick pick your own on the whole thing but in your ingredients section you say that when you're gonna put dairy milk back into a recipe that was formulated for either almond milk which is your typical one or coconut depending that you use one to two percent instead of regular whole is that because even though you know I find them execrable is is that because they more closely match the recipes that have been tested with the non-dairy milk. Yeah that is exactly it. So like a whole milk is gonna is not gonna have the same consistency as like an almond milk or an oat milk or um a coconut milk. Oh and by the way you know how I know we're the exactly the same about a lot of things I read one section uh I gotta gotta find the exact quote but oh here it is um you write um you'll know when you'll know when it's done to speak speaking about when employees first come in and start working for you and they're like how long is this how long is this guy a cook or how much you say they saw recipes at Goldenrod as they saw recipes that read simply salt or vanilla or even spices with no measurements listed.
+
+[38:20] They asked where to find working oven timers as the one in our convection oven had recently stopped working as they all do. You'll know when it's done is what you told them which at first they didn't believe and looked at me stunned. And so it's like, I think people don't understand, especially in in baking, or I know people always get on me about um get on me about like because like you know, my job theoretically is to be precise and scientific about everything. But like my standard amount is how much how much should I add? The right amount, you idiot.
+
+[38:50] Exactly. Some the correct amount. Exactly. How long am I supposed to bake it? Till it's done.
+
+[38:55] And like it's that's what makes it so hard. Like, I mean, what when you're writing a book, a baking book, for me, what's really challenging is like actually giving those precise times specifically or temperatures because I do not have your oven. I do not have your kitchen. And so I think what's really important, and what I really tried to do with this book was to give people the skills to understand what it looks like when it's done and what it feels like when it's done, because it is impossible for me to tell you exactly at what moment, at what minute, at which minute you should take it out of the oven, and that's why timers are irrelevant in the kitchen. So, like if it breaks, then it's like the sooner the better.
+
+[39:36] Um, but yeah, my my poor especially go ahead. Oh, and in home kitchens when most humans don't have oven thermometers and don't even know how hot their oven is to begin with, yeah. I mean, in most in most home kitchens, you can almost bake by smell because the kitchen, the extraction, the hoods are so bad in kitchens that you can pretty much smell when something's done, you know what I mean? And it's like I always tell my my bakers too, and and this is a little this is a little bit different in a home kitchen, but um, you should always kind of get in the mindset that something's in the oven. And I always kind of I I tell my bakers, like, we're not using timers because that's not really gonna help you, but just always be thinking like, oh, every five minutes, every however often, do I have anything in the oven?
+
+[40:25] Is there anything that I should check? And when you're at home, it's like once you start getting more comfortable, you'll get to that point where you're like, Oh yeah, I have something in the oven. And maybe that's just me, maybe I'm just kind of a freak, but you'll smell it and you'll start to get familiar and like it's a very sensory thing. Like, yes, you can use a timer, but when something is done, smell the air. Smell like um remember what it smells like.
+
+[40:46] And that way when you're just like kicking it on your couch, you can smell and be like, oh yeah, this is what it smells like when it's done. But like that that little genie with a baseball bat that hits you in the back of your head when you're cooking to ro like it's like, hey, you idiot, you haven't checked on the oven in a while. Can you teach someone to have that? Yes, you can. I have seen it be taught.
+
+[41:06] Huh. Huh. Yeah. I mean, and it comes from a lot of years and m or months of me being like, hey, you have stuff in the oven, because I'm always thinking about it. And so the last thing they want is for me to remind them again that they have something in the oven, so they start remembering before I remind them.
+
+[41:23] It's like sense of urgency. Yeah. It's difficult to teach, but it's possible. Some people have it more innately than others, but no one is just born with that, you know, I must continue to work at all times. You have to I also have really, really good bakers, so that might be part of it too.
+
+[41:38] Sure. I'm sure that uh no shortage of people want to work with you uh over there. Impossible to understate, yeah, ha the importance of having a good team. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
+
+[41:48] It's it's the best thing in the world. You know, I'm sure you're a very good leader, and so you can get a good team, which is half of it, you know. We try to, for sure. So then you write in the uh I keep on saying I'm gonna get into the meat of the book, and then I never do because I'm still on the like ingredients section. You use a tip that obviously I agree with, which is uh salt all the time, always salt.
+
+[42:10] But before you say anything, I have a specific question for you. And since you are the queen of making sure everyone has a place at the table, hopefully you can answer this question uh that came in on Twitter this morning for you from uh Darren Vengroff. Um any tips for baking uh for people on very low sodium diets. Potassium-based leaveners are available and are sort of okay if you adjust formulas based on the molecular weight of the salts, but it's hard to replace uh in yeast breads and also performs and yeast breads also perform differently without salt, though using uh long low temp proofing seems to help somewhat, but the flavor of the wheat doesn't come through in the same way. That is such a tough one.
+
+[42:49] I uh really feel for people who you know it's there's low sodium, and then there's what that guy just wrote in. And um that like I said a little bit ago, there's always gonna be something that we just can't I I we just can't figure out, and that's one thing that you know I don't have a good answer for. But is is it one of those things where it's always in the back of your mind and someday you'll you'll solve it? I mean what problems like that. One in particular is not.
+
+[43:14] Um we haven't had too many people come in with that, but um, I mean, now it's gonna be always in the back of my mind for sure, yeah. Well, when you solve it, you're gonna let us know. I'll let Darren know when I figure it out. Hey, how come banana bread takes so long to bake? It's just real wet, I guess.
+
+[43:27] But it's like impossibly long, right? It looks like it's done and it's not, and you just not even have to be. And I mean, it just gets so dark, too. And I think that like a lot of people are like, well, it's done, I guess I'll just take it out because it looks done. And it's really just mostly not ever done if it looks done.
+
+[43:42] I know. But it tastes so good and it's so theoretically easy, but it just gives me agita all the time how long it takes to cook. Huh. I mean, that little freaking loaf pan, 50 minutes, 50-something minutes. Like a joke, right?
+
+[43:54] Yeah, it's getting and after like 25 minutes, you're like, it's already risen all the way, it's done. And then I'm like, oh my god, it's gonna burn. So then I put aluminum foil over the top because it freaks me out. The whole thing freaks me out. So it gives me agida.
+
+[43:59] Hate it. The thing that really gets him is the banana bread. He can he can do just anything else, but it's the thing that gets him is the banana bread. Yeah, yeah. Light me on fire, toss me off a building, fine.
+
+[44:19] The banana bread, how long it takes to bake, kill me. Kill me. Yeah. Oh, by the way, another good another good tip you give, even for home people. A lot of times, people like uh, for instance, your Alton Brown and whatnot, they'll tell you not to buy kitchen equipment to have that they consider like unitasker or or whatnot.
+
+[44:35] But you write in making the cookie section, go get you a number 24 scoop. I would say get a range of dosing uh of uh dosing scoops in your house. No one's ever said to me, hey, you know what? I you know what pisses me off? That uh I can now dose out muffins and cookies accurately.
+
+[44:53] It's like a gift to have those at home. And I I actually don't up until recently, um up until the last month, I haven't been baking at home for like the past five years. And I'm so pissed I don't have my dosing mechanisms at home. It is the one thing I really, really want in my kitchen. And I go through the supplies section in detail and very clearly say you don't have to spend a ton of money on your supplies, but the things that I do encourage people to get are actually things that are going to make a difference.
+
+[45:24] Yeah, if you've never had the dosing scoops in your house and you do any kind of baking whatsoever, you're gonna you will thank Angela for this tip. By the way, don't use them on ice cream. They actually suck for untempered ice cream. No one in the world who's not a pastry chef tempers their freaking ice cream before they scoop it, and dosers are rancid. Rancid at going in because you always rip the little the little swipe doodle out when you're going through uh ice cream that's too hard.
+
+[45:51] Because guess what people that's not what they're for agree? Yeah. Um, so I will I will also uh I want I wanna because I don't want to forget this before before we make it that Angela has the greatest quote of all times in the book, and the quote is this there are many different kinds of muffin people. Yeah I want you to all think about that statement and ask yourself, what kind of muffin person are you? Because there are so many different kinds of muffins.
+
+[46:22] Can I if I can just quickly tell you about a kind of muffin person I met once at my store. Um, she came up to me at the counter, and there's you know the couple feet divider of the counter between us, and she said, So what kind of muffins do you have today? And I was like, Well, I mean, I think they were like blueberry and raspberry or something with crumble on top. And I told her, and she's like, so that's just like what you have today. And I was like, Yeah, that's what we have today.
+
+[46:46] And she's like, So what do you do? Do you just like wake up in the morning and just decide this is the kind of muffin you're gonna make today? And I was like, Yeah, it is, I guess. And she reached across the two or three foot counter and put a thumbs down inches away from my face. Wow.
+
+[47:08] Oh. Did you that's my muffin story? Did you ever find out what kind of muffin she was expecting? It's true. She sounds like a poppy seed person.
+
+[47:19] It's super hard to say. She for sure left. Um, and yeah, there's it's hard to know what kind of muffin people you're gonna run into. We have had tons of different kinds of muffin people in my store. Yeah.
+
+[47:31] I mean, everyone has in their mind what they want their muffin to be. Or like you know, crumble on top. Do they want like the crunchy sugar on top? Do they want like chunks in there? Do they want it to be smooth?
+
+[47:41] Like my bakers really don't like chunks in their muffins. I am a big chunk in my muffin person. Like I want to find different things throughout my muffin. And so that is like our muffin standard at the store. And they're always bummed when I'm like, oh wow, you went ahead and just like made those berries into like preserves for the muffins, huh?
+
+[48:02] And it's like fine, they can do that. There's different kinds of muffin people, but I just think it's so fun to find those little craters throughout your muffin. And there's also people who like different form factors. There's the there's the uh like in in paper, like almost like Italian looking muffin people. Then there's the the giant exploded mushroom cloud top.
+
+[48:20] I'm one of those people. You know what I mean? Yeah. I even have, I think I mentioned this on the air once. I have a Chicago metallic cheat muffin tin pan that has little indents for the giant exploded mushrooms so that they don't spread past where they're supposed to on the thing.
+
+[48:36] And if you dose your muffin batter just right, you can't tell that I've cheated because there's only a little bit of an up curve on the side of where the exploded mushroom head is. It's pretty, it's a pretty key invention. But I like I had I don't have my little doser at home, and I had to do I did a video shoot yesterday at home um for a recipe for for the muffin recipe from the book, and I used two spoons to scoop it in, and my muffins just were like insane, exploding in every direction. In a good way or a bad way? I didn't like it.
+
+[49:08] Uh, Jack, are you ready to have your mind blown by this tip that Angela gives in the book? Yeah, yeah, blow it. You get a cake. Someone gets you a cake, you make a cake. Alright?
+
+[49:20] This has happened. This is what has happened. What do you do? You s you slice it now and freeze frozen slices. Oh my god!
+
+[49:29] Such a good idea. Wow. Genius! That's the smartest. That's you were so correct about my mind being blown.
+
+[49:40] Wow. That can't be new information to you. It is. It that's brand new information. Incredible.
+
+[49:46] Oh come on. No, because you don't think about it. I just ordered a copy of the book and a friend tell you like this is this is the tip that I'm going to use to sell your book to the masses because wow, that's brilliant. I mean, it's like, what do you want to do? You have a leftover cake and you Especially in the time of COVID.
+
+[50:04] Yeah. Especially in a time of any time in your whole freaking life. If you want a slice of cake and you froze the rest of a birthday cake, and you're like, oh man, I really want to slice right now. Here are my options. Shave off a tiny piece and eat it frozen, or wait for hours.
+
+[50:21] What do you you don't want to do either of those? You want to eat a slice of cake right now. Oh my gosh. And uh it's a admission that keeps me from making cakes in the home. Because I'm like, oh well, geez, you know, if I bake this whole cake, I'm living alone right now.
+
+[50:36] I'm gonna have to eat the whole dang thing. This it's brilliant. I you're killing me. I I feel like an idiot. I feel so foolish for not having come up with this.
+
+[50:44] You're killing me. Wow. Yeah. No, you're I mean, you're keeping me alive. So hey, can I give you guys another can I give you give you guys another mind blow that's not from this book, but that I recently learned, and I can only mention it because it's from a future classics in the field that I didn't want to mention when Matt from Kitchen Arts and Letters was on last week.
+
+[51:05] But I I ordered a copy of the book, so I no longer have to worry about the three copies that are online now getting sold because I've already purchased my copy. You ready for a tip? Yeah. Tip away. Guy Guy's name was um uh was Monroe Boston Strauss, the pie king of Los Angeles, wrote a book called Pie Marches On that never got hugely popular because every recipe in the book is written for 10 pies or more because he was writing for commercial establishments and not for people cooking at home.
+
+[51:34] He was rediscovered by Shirley Corriher, who's also gonna have a classics in the field, uh, hopefully at some point soon. Anyways, maybe when Harold McGee comes on next, we'll we'll do Shirley Core here, which would be fun. But um, or maybe have her on because she's still around. I just don't know her that well. But get this tip.
+
+[51:49] So all my life I've been blind baking crusts, and I've been doing the weights, I've been doing the blah, the double panning, all this other stuff. The guy's like, no, no, no, no. What you do is is you turn the pie pan upside down and bake it on the outside of the freaking pie pan. Boom. That's crazy.
+
+[52:12] Right? That is wild, right? And he's like, listen, I'm a professional. Yeah, he's like, I have like I have so many different kinds of pie pans, so I have a slightly smaller one. I turn it upside down, I bake it, and then if I need it to have the structure of a pie pan later, I can always invert it into a bigger pie pan.
+
+[52:29] Dun dun dun dun dun dun, no shrink, no puff, no shrink, no puff. Because how many times in your life have you blind baked something and the and the and the freaking the freaking crust slides down into your pan. Oh a lot, or puffs up crazy. I mean, or I just choose not to blind bake and you want another you want another tip from my man uh Monroe Boston Strauss. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[52:56] Keep them coming. He's clearly uh yeah, yeah, yeah. So he did first of all, he Angela, like you you need to look up this dude's book because it's on the internet. Uh you can read the whole book on the internet, but like the the way this guy goes into depth on particular fruit fillings, crazy. But check this.
+
+[53:12] So his graham cracker crust was originally developed as a a moisture management problem. And you know I'm concerned about that for the Miracle of Moisture Management book, which I may or may not be writing. However, here's how he does it. He has two different main kinds of graham cracker crusts, and uh it depends on whether you want to do one side or both. And he has very particular things, but and you're like, what do you mean, one side or both?
+
+[53:34] Because what he does is he makes gram crackers, makes a traditional pie crust, and then rolls gra uses graham cracker as the flour on the board and rolls graham cracker into a traditional pie crust. But a little bit. Wouldn't that be delicious for so many different things? Yes, yes, you love this guy. I mean, he's long since dead, but I mean Oh, come on.
+
+[53:58] I mean, how do I not know about this? I am 49. I'm 49. How do I not know this stuff? Oh my god.
+
+[54:06] What year did this book come out? It was originally written in the 30s, it was reprinted in the or 30s or late late 30s, early 40s, and it was reprinted once, I believe, in the 50s, and maybe once again in the 60s, but they just never did a big run of it because it was only for uh commercial people. Literally, every recipe is like makes 10 pies. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[54:27] Man, that is awesome. Amazing book. You should all look it up. That's such a a tip. Uh Dave, we gotta we gotta bounce.
+
+[54:35] Well no, I gotta well, first of all, I have questions. Obviously, I didn't get to. Let me ask one more reader question. Uh Eileen writes in, because this Angela will uh be good for this. I am typically pro egg, but my friend thinks she has an allergy and is anti-eg, but we're still friends, and she's trying to make a coconut bread that calls for five eggs.
+
+[54:53] That's all the information she gave me. Do you know of any substitutes she can use in that recipe that might yield something that's in the ballpark of delicious as opposed to gross? Would you use your flax eggs for that? Or I know some of your recipes you you say you can substitute eggs and some that you yeah, I don't know. It really, really depends.
+
+[55:08] Like you could give it a shot. Um, sometimes, yeah. I mean, I don't know. Does it have coconut flour? Is it just a regular quick bread that has coconut in it?
+
+[55:18] I think it's too hard to tell without actually seeing the recipe. Well, maybe she can write back in and I'll I'll send it to you. What if you did like a couple a couple flax eggs and then like a little more? I assume there's some kind of milk as a liquid in there, and then like, because if you did five flax eggs, it's just gonna be like a really gummy mess. So maybe do two instead of all five and then bulk it up with a little more milk.
+
+[55:42] Um Matt, could I have a couple minutes to ask some specific questions about the book? Because I don't get to talk to uh Angela that often. A little bit, come on, man. I want to ask her about somebody's recipes, man. Come on, man.
+
+[55:53] Five minutes. Yeah. All right. Peach coffee cake, your grandma's recipe that you redid and you and in like you said it was one of the last things that she ever had. Is this one of the recipes we need to make out of your out of your book?
+
+[56:04] You have to make the peach coffee cake. I mean, and I think that you will agree with me on this, Dave. You can only use canned peaches for this recipe. So it it is a yeast uh dough on the bottom, and then some canned peaches, and then a coconut oil crumble on top. It's kind of like an eastern European um style thing.
+
+[56:26] She was a Polish immigrant, and I don't know if she made this recipe up or if somebody gave it to her, but it is one of the best things. I have tried it with fresh peaches. I have tried canning my own peaches. It really really benefits from like an actual canned peach because what kind of like leaks out of those peaches makes like almost like a custardy sort of uh vibe with the dough. It's super good.
+
+[56:50] Jack, when is canned peach season? Always uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but this is what it points out one of the things I love about the the book is is that, and I you know, hopefully we're not gonna have time, I guess, to talk about it, but like it's it's a super interesting combination of what you would call kind of high concept. I mean, remember, like, you know, Angela was working at like three Michelin star restaurants, and like high concept and also really homey, like her past, like the future, like so. You'll have a recipe that was her grandma's, and then at the same time, you'll have a recipe for cardamom pistachios, strawberry, rose, uh, you know, you know, uh cake.
+
+[57:32] So it's like super interesting kind of combination of things, which I always enjoy to see how someone thinks on different levels and with different in different kinds of flavor regimes. All right, so since they're gonna get cut cut cut off quick. Turtle turtle cookies. So these are basically brown alloys that are cooked in a waffle iron for only like 60 seconds. Are they still kind of raw in the middle?
+
+[57:52] No, they're not raw at all. They're like fully cooked little, so it's like a brownie batter that you basically put into a standard waffle iron, not Belgian waffle iron. And um they just bake, they just cook in like 60 seconds, and it is one of the best things. And then you put peanut butter crossing on top. One of my favorite things that my mom made growing up.
+
+[58:12] All right, get this, people, because this is not something I would have thought was delicious, but you go out of your way to say it is, so I'm gonna ask you about it. Buckwheat chocolate chunk cookies. Oh yeah. See, it's not what I would think of buckwheat. What do you think, Jack?
+
+[58:25] How does that sound? I think it sounds delicious. What do you have against buckwheat? I like buckwheat. You know what I like buckwheat, except for when it's made into uh, you know, soba noodles, and then someone rinses all the flavor out of it so that it tastes like it's made with nothing.
+
+[58:36] That's the only time I don't like it. But uh, I mean, I love buckwheat, but I just you're not the only one who thinks that. So my husband was like not totally on board with them. My staff was not totally on board with them. It was one of the demos I did for um for Charleston wine and food last year, and I was like, this is gonna be perfect.
+
+[58:56] This is like such a cool thing. The grain is so delicious, and um, I started making it for my staff and made it for my husband. They're like, holy, you know, this is like very, very good. And I think I specifically say in the recipe that if you chop up chocolate like a chocolate bar or even chop up your chocolate chips, you're gonna kind of get that chocolate dust throughout the cookie as well. And I'm not like a chocolate chip person in my cookies, but this when the dust kind of goes throughout that really like nutty buckwheat, super soft cookie, it's it's super sweet.
+
+[59:27] Okay, chocolate thunder cake from the book thunder from the book Thundercake by Patricia Polacco. I've never heard of this book. You want to give me like a quick thing on this book and this, and do you like this recipe? Is this a good recipe, or is this just your childhood talking? Uh is it I made it my own from this childhood book.
+
+[59:45] So I used to read that book a lot with my grandma, my mom. So it's about a little girl who's the thunderstorm starts, she's super scared. And to distract her, her um her grandma says we have to go around the farm and get all the ingredients to make thunder cake, and we have to get all the ingredients and make the cake and get it in the oven before the rain starts. So it's like the grandma's way of distracting the little girl. And so they run around the whole farm and they get like tomatoes because there's tomato puree in the cake and eggs and all of this stuff.
+
+[1:00:12] It's just a very, very sweet story. And the recipe is just a really, really rich chocolate cake that I recommend with chocolate ganache. Could chocolate it up. Speaking of chocolate on chocolate on chocolate, what about your babe squares? That looks like death by chocolate.
+
+[1:00:24] That is definitely death by chocolate. That's something that's like a little too much chocolate for me, but it's a chocolate almond shortbread crust with chocolate ganache filling, and then a chocolate crumble on top. Sounds like that recipe could use some chocolate in it. What do you think? I think that it should just definitely have more chocolate.
+
+[1:00:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, hey, since I'm on a time schedule here. So funerals and brownies. Talk to me about funerals and brownies. Um, this is just a great chocolate, is a great brownie recipe, a super fudgy if you're a fudgy brownie person, because there are different kinds of brownie people with walnuts in it.
+
+[1:00:55] And I made them for my grandma carriado's funeral, and they became the brownie for funerals. I made hundreds of them for this funeral. And my mom was like, yo, those funeral brownies were pretty good. And so we just started calling them funeral brownies. And my editor reached out recently and she was like, probably not the best time for that recipe.
+
+[1:01:14] Well, or the best time. Yeah. Yeah. Uh by the way, Matt, uh, nuts and brownies, yes or no? Uh, yeah, sure.
+
+[1:01:23] Why not? Hmm. I don't ever hear someone have such a what a jack, yes or no on the nuts. Sometimes. What is it with you people?
+
+[1:01:29] Usually people either like nuts or no nuts. Very rarely. I like a wide variety. I don't eat a lot of baked goods, but when I do, I eat them sort of broadly. Like I enjoy many, and I like a wide variety.
+
+[1:01:45] I think coffee is a bigger every time inclusion in brownies for me than nuts are. I have never put them in my own brownies, but yeah, I put I put coffee in cookies a bunch too. I I like where your head's out, Jack. Angela, you said that you hadn't heard of this cake till recently, and I haven't heard of this cake until yesterday when you sent me a copy of your book, Hummingbird Cake. Good recipe?
+
+[1:02:07] Interesting. Talk to me about hummingbird cake. It's a great recipe. It's like a banana cake that has pineapple, um, nuts, and coconut in it. How could that be a bad recipe?
+
+[1:02:18] Doesn't sound oh my god. You ready for this? B Boston Monroe Strauss, or Monroe Boston Strauss, but pie marches on. Remember this guy we're talking about? He he makes a banana cream, uh he makes a banana cream pie with pineapple juice as the liquid in the crust and a little bit of p pineapple in it.
+
+[1:02:36] So yeah, he has he's down with that pineapple banana action too. Yeah, that's brilliant. This is that guy who released a book in the 30s? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:02:45] Yeah, yeah. Wow. Um pie, king of pies. What? Everything about this.
+
+[1:02:52] Yeah. Banana cream pie is the king of pies, though. That's my my hot take. Okay, so this guy, Strauss, not because we're talking about Angela today, not about Strauss. Strauss literally invented the chiffon pie.
+
+[1:03:03] Whoa. I mean, crazy. Anyway, uh, cheesecake. I noticed you have the cheesecake recipe in, but you haven't figured out a way to undairy that sucker. Yeah, I mean, you could a lot of people use like tofu.
+
+[1:03:14] That's not really my jam. I would rather just make something that I necessarily can't necessarily eat that is just really delicious, but it satisfies the gluten-free crowd because it has um a nut crust. So, you know, sometimes things just are what they are. Yeah. Uh your coconut cake, pretty cake or prettiest cake?
+
+[1:03:33] Prettiest. Yeah, that cake is crazy. Um also, by the way, for people, uh, like a baller move ends the book with an essay from her mom. Sick move. Dude, did you read that essay?
+
+[1:03:49] Yeah. It's so good. But I've never seen that movie. Such a sick move. So my mom is a journalist and a technical writer by trade for 40 years or whatever.
+
+[1:04:00] And you can tell our writing styles are so different. I'm a very emotional, sentimental writer. Hers, it's just facts. And it is awesome. She talks about my grandma living through the Spanish flu epidemic.
+
+[1:04:10] Um, it's it's a really, especially with Mother's Day coming up and with everything that's going on right now, I feel like such a I feel really lucky to have that in there. No, it's definitely definitely very cool. Um next, like I know they're kicking me off here, but um, I didn't answer any of your questions that are cocktail-related people. We'll get it next time. Maybe Jack will come back on and and answer it.
+
+[1:04:34] I need someone tell you what, I got a lot of free time. I need someone in cooking issues land to help Milo's from Toronto who has uh wants to make a nochino. Now, those those green walnuts are coming into season now, so he probably needs, or soon, so he probably needs recommendations fairly soon. So if uh someone could uh send in um nochino uh suggestions, that would be uh appreciated. I feel like I could talk to you all day about this, uh about this book and oh what?
+
+[1:05:06] What about the fact that you bake your donuts though? One more bone to pick. Baked donuts? Come on, man. I know, but do you know how expensive it is to get another four feet on your hood to get a fryer underneath?
+
+[1:05:17] I will accept this as an answer. But uh rolling around in dollar bills, and I can add another four feet to my hood whenever I want. This is okay, okay. You're as usual. You are you are correct.
+
+[1:05:30] Um we see what what else? Oh, also one more. I love that you call out, see the thing is is like what's hilarious, she calls out biscotti. And for those of you that are my age, right? Biscotti was the 90s pastry like par excellence.
+
+[1:05:46] Like you could not like walk out of your the way that you walk out of your apartment now and you trip on somebody's spent mask and like glove and all sorts of medical waste all over the streets. That's the way it used to be at stores and biscotti. Everyone is everywhere, mostly really bad ones. And honestly, that was the one thing that my wife used to like to bake in the 90s was the old Cooks Illustrated, I believe it was, uh, Biscotti recipe, which was actually quite good. But I love like the little stories, how you point out like kind of how dated the bisc the biscotti is, and you're like, let's bring biscotti back.
+
+[1:06:18] I like that. There's nothing wrong with Biscotti. There is nothing wrong with it. Although, are you a dip or a not dip? I'm actually a not dip.
+
+[1:06:25] It kind of depends for me. Sometimes I don't I don't want all that stuff smearing on my face. If I'm gonna, if I'm gonna bite into it and it's gonna be hard as hell, and I'm gonna have that, right? I don't then also want a smear of chocolate around my face. I would rather just eat some chocolate and then crunch on the on the biscotti.
+
+[1:06:45] Yeah, it kind of depends what kind of biscotty you're eating, too. And if you're gonna dip the biscotti into something else. Yeah, you definitely don't want the chocolate if you're gonna do the coffee dip. Not that I have yeah, exactly. I'm not a coffee dip.
+
+[1:06:56] Because I like I like the whole teeth teeth crushed thing. Okay, listen, on your buns, I know you're known for your buns. You have two different bun recipes because in your mind, you can choose to either not have gluten or not have egg, but you may not choose both, right? Unfortunately, that is where we are right now. And you feel like you're gonna uh get past that at a certain point, or is that just not a problem you're focused on?
+
+[1:07:24] So now that we're doing you know, with everything going on in supply chains, we're gonna, I feel like have to make a lot of different decisions. So hopefully it will give us a little bit more time. And now that you know, I really thankfully got the um the PPP loan, so I'm able to bring some people back, and that's some testing that they can do before we're safe to open. Cool. Um, which recipes do you think are actually better gluten-free?
+
+[1:07:49] Which style of recipes? Banana bread is really great, gluten free. Um, the pound cake recipe that's in there, better gluten free. I prefer the cookies. Um, I I read your pound cake recipe.
+
+[1:08:02] You actually think it's better than the one with gluten because it does it get as in other words, like how's the density of it compared to like a regular glue one? It's a little lighter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:08:13] So it also then it depends on what kind of pound cake person you are. It's also relative, you know? But I prefer it because it's a little bit um it's like you were talking about a little bit earlier, you're not gonna overmix it. So you're gonna have a really fine crumb. And and on yours, can you substitute because you use Crisco and then you put in uh I believe it was almond extract and I forget what the other thing, lemon?
+
+[1:08:35] Lemon was it? Yeah. And um, so is that one you could substitute the butter back for and do a standard sugar buttercream or what? 100%. And do you I don't I didn't remember the steps on that.
+
+[1:08:47] Do you cream the crisco with the sugar? Yes. And that's your tot basically most of your aeration right there. So it functions like a standard pound cake. Yes.
+
+[1:08:56] It okay, okay, okay. Yeah. Uh and is it hard to keep that one moist? What about I I would think some of the gluten free flours are actually moister, right? Like the ones with sorghum are probably gonna be more and tapioca, are gonna end up moister than their regular wheat counterparts, no?
+
+[1:09:11] Um, it kind of depends. I haven't baked with wheat for such a long time, but um, I think you're kind of like sometimes butter is a little bit has a more moisture, and so if you're taking away the so, like butter more moist, wheat less, but then Crisco less moist, gluten-free flour more moist. So it's kind of like a trade-off. All right, so listen, people get yourselves on the inclusive baking train. Go get perfectly golden by uh Angela Garbats.
+
+[1:09:41] She is one of my favorite people out of Lincoln, Nebraska, Nebraska, where the possibilities are endless. Thanks also to uh Jack Shram and John who got kicked off by Matt in the booth, even though his booth is Royal Island you kicked Matt off because it's not very nice, not very nice, and I'm gonna have to hear about it later. And uh I will end with this, which you have to uh you have to read the whole book. Uh is it, where is it? You have to read the whole book for this to make sense.
+
+[1:10:07] But, Angela, you are a party cake. Cooking issues! Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:10:21] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:10:43] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you. Recorded on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez chilling in Stanford at her house. How are you doing, Stas? Good.
+
+[0:41] Yeah. We got uh Matt in his uh in his little hidey hole COVID booth up in uh Rhode Island. How you doing? I'm good, except I'm actually back in Brooklyn. Whoa, what?
+
+[0:54] Uh who comes back to New York? We we should not waste precious minutes on this, but yeah. All right, all right. All right. And uh, and of course, uh, you know, uh BDX uh BDX, you know, newcomer extraordinaire, John Nahool, also there.
+
+[1:12] Uh, and he's gonna play a big part because he is a huge fan of the guests that we have on uh today. John, how you doing? You're chilling in the Upper East right there? Yeah? Murray Hill, yep.
+
+[1:23] Wait, so Murray Hill, you really think that Murray Hill has a distinct thing going on as opposed to just I guess it's kind of it's not the Upper East for sure. It's definitely not Upper East. It could, yeah. Like it could be very lower midtown, but what else would you call it? What's the difference between a turtle.
+
+[1:42] What's the difference between a turtle, a kips, and a, and a and a Murray Hill? What's the difference between all of these things? Who is Murray? It's a really small neighbor. I I don't know.
+
+[1:51] But to to stick with Matt, what Matt was saying earlier, we should probably refocus on the show. Alright, I'm just curious. Anyway, and then we have two very special uh guests on today. We have uh Rich She from uh you might know him as R CookQuest on both Twitter and uh Instagram, and uh he lives up in Boston. I've known him for a long time.
+
+[2:15] He's helped out the Museum of Food and Drink uh on many occasions with his uh engineering skills. But over the uh Rich, how many years have you been well and Jeremy Omansky from Larder in Cleveland and other things, and they have come together and written a new book which is out at the end of the week called Koji Alchemy, and it is the very, very first book solely devoted to using Koji in the English language. So if you don't know what Koji is, just wait because you actually do know what Koji is, and you've been eating Koji related things since forever. And um, you know, even if you do know what Koji is, I guarantee you you have not you, unless you're one of like unless they have asked you to be a contributor in their book, you have not used Koji the way they have used Koji. So, you know, you stick around and listen, listen to what's going on.
+
+[3:07] But why don't you two each Rich? You go first, maybe. Um, why don't you tell us kind of how long you've been Kojiing around and then like how you guys got together to do the book? All right, um, so yeah, it's a pleasure to be on the show, Dave. Um, I don't remember exactly when I first started playing with Koji, but it was it's probably on the order of several years now.
+
+[3:29] Um, it was just one of those things that I happened upon when I was hanging out with a chef friend of mine who was interested in learning how to make Koji for a particular presentation, and he uh knew my technical aptitude for just figuring things out. Did a little bit of research, uh found Brandon Byers, um his handbook on fermentation, reached out to him and he helped me figure out uh a very simple koji just to get started making it, and then I just started investigating ideas on uh basically looking at starches, proteins in whatever fashion and marrying them together to leverage the enzymes to create uh crazy flavors that I really enjoyed just figuring out. And then uh as I was going through this process, you know, on on social media as I always have with all my creations and ideas and interest in learning, I shared what I was doing and happened upon Jeremy and his his uh adventurous ideas of curing meat with Koji. And we just struck up uh struck up this um, you know, friendship through sharing ideas and enthusiasm and continuing to to grow together and learn more and interact with everybody who is excited about this product and the possibilities and that's how we kinda came to have the idea of writing this book together. And Jeremy, how long have you been on the Koji train?
+
+[5:02] Uh it seems like forever. Uh but uh I I wanna say uh 2014. Um yeah. You know, I was asked to make some miso. And at that point, I'd already been fermenting and meat curing and all that that lovely stuff.
+
+[5:19] And and uh, you know, thinking that I knew I could just go ahead and make some miso like it was any other fermented food, I I uh that wasn't the case. And uh just totally fell down the Koji rabbit hole completely. You know, I have this thing with rabbit holes because in my mind I've been thinking, like honestly, like for like um like a month. Anytime someone says to me that they've gone down the rabbit hole, in my mind I'm thinking, are you sure it's not a rat's nest? Are you sure there's a rabbit down there?
+
+[5:55] Oh you have to be careful, Dave. Sometimes there's a honey badger. Yeah, right. I mean, like, dude, if you live out near a forest, right? Some b big weird things dig holes in the ground.
+
+[6:07] It's people, let me tell you, it is not probably it is not a rabbit down that hole. I'm just telling you that right now. Dude, digging just be careful. You guys moving flash flash funny. Lat last summer scanned a bunch of chanterelles in the forest.
+
+[6:26] Yeah. And totally stuck my hand in a rabbit hole. I need a a yellow jacket nest. Oh Jesus! I've got like 10 pounds of chanterelles on my back.
+
+[6:42] I'm like, you know, moving stuff around and pick some more in the yellow jacket's nest, start getting stung. I trip over a log next to me and fall into a patch of nettles. Oh man. I love your luck, man. You have the best luck.
+
+[6:58] You have the best luck. I've only ever once like uh really pissed off a yellow jacket nest, but unfortunately, I was in full chainsaw gear, so like I didn't know I had done it until I saw them inside of my face mask. Oh my god. And that's when I started getting stung. And I was like, ah, yeah, listen, honestly, dude, things that are on the ground, like holes in the ground, beware.
+
+[7:25] There's a reason that people since time immemorial have been afraid of holes in the ground. It is probably not a rabbit. Just saying that. Um so um, you know, who knows? I mean, anyways, uh what were you talking about?
+
+[7:42] Oh, yeah, yeah. So listen, before we go uh too far, but when you're starting on Miso, like who did you have to go to at that at that time? Were you you were using the shirt leaf uh uh Miso book? Like, what was there for you to go to at the time? Yeah, that that's essentially what it was.
+
+[7:57] Someone brought me a copy of the book, um, the book of Miso, and was like, hey, can you make some Miso using chickpeas? And handed me the book, and I said, sure. Um, and then uh, you know, I realized I I need this mold and I gotta order scores and where do I get them? And you know, I all the things that a lot of people getting into working with Koji who aren't familiar with, they go through. Um, and it it took me, it probably took me longer to figure out where to get everything I needed to get and what to get than it actually took me to like incubate that first batch of Koji and then like mix the miso.
+
+[8:38] Yeah, well, and the Book of Miso is a great book. I mean, we've talked about both that book and the Book of Tofu, but they were printed quite a long time ago, and they're not really written from a chef or even really a cook's perspective. They're more of a save the world kind of perspective, and they're great, so I don't want to take anything away from them, but there's definitely a need out there for more information. Uh that is in it. Oh, and uh Jeremy, I don't know if you know Nastasi, I know Rich does already, but anytime you can say the word spore, you're hurting Nastasia's inner core, and so you should try to say spore as much as possible.
+
+[9:15] And if you can do it like this, spur. If you can just say it like spike that will like really make my life better. There's a term that you know, friends of mine and Nastasi and Peter Kim, who is the you know was running the Museum of Food and Drink and was this show's favorite punching bag. I don't know if we talked about this on air. Uh punching bag?
+
+[9:41] No, no, no, no. The the term the term that he came up with just for uh yeah, I think so, yeah. Well, I'll mention it again. It's called okay, you're from everyone's familiar with Schadenfreude, right? Schadenfreude is the German term for getting pleasure out of other, yeah.
+
+[9:57] It's like pain pleasure. So the pleasure you get out of other people's kind of pain, Schadenfreude. So Peter coined Stasenfreude, which is specifically the joy that Nastasia gets when other people are going through troubling times. But it's it's specifically the joy that she gets out of it because for her, it's fuel for life. Like I like I've had bad things happen to me over the course of the years that one bad thing happens to me, and that is fuel for her to continue living for like two months.
+
+[10:32] It's amazing. That's not true. I don't like it when you get hurt. Anyways, is there is it only but but two months seems like such a long time? Yeah, well, it has to be really good.
+
+[10:45] It doesn't have to be physical hurt either. In fact she prefers emotional hurt. Oh yeah. Yeah. She loves emotional hurt.
+
+[10:53] What? Emotional over physical? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[10:57] Yeah. Preferred come on, man. Yeah. I mean, she's, you know, she's uh what's it called? She's an evolved individual.
+
+[11:05] Like emotional pain is always greater than physical pain, right? True. Because physical pain you can forget. That's why people have more than one baby. But emotional pain, man, you can scar people for life.
+
+[11:23] Yes. Um I'm saying um so to go back, so Jeremy, uh since you were the last person here to talk about Koji, I've we're remiss. Why don't you describe using the word spore as much as possible? Because I think that I think that it's uh people get confused with Koji because in general like we we here in the US anyway use it to refer to the mold the uh the mold grown on a substrate and the process of doing all of that and then anything that has any of those things in it. It's kind of like the word smurf.
+
+[12:04] You just use it for all of these different things but I feel if you just give a little short explanation and part of your book is talking about this maybe you can help people understand more what's going on. Yeah, yeah so so first uh you gotta keep in mind this is a this is a mold, this is a fungus. I mean, whether you got a picture of a uh cremini or an oyster mushroom in your head, uh, or you've got a picture of those those cruddy leftovers in the back of your fridge, uh, this is kind of related to all those. And and these also, they they all start off with a spore. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:41] Uh it's it's interesting too. So fungi are a separate kingdom of life from us and from plants. And if we go back far enough in in the evolutionary history of all this, um, we actually see too that we are more closely related to fungi than plants are. Most people see, you know, we use mushrooms culinarily as we use a vegetable. Um, so based on that, a lot of people associate them as being more closely related.
+
+[13:07] But the steak that you're cooking the mushrooms with is more closely related, and we are more closely related. So the spore is actually akin to like our um uh our sperm and our egg. Uh you're really doing it to Nastasia now. No. That's kind of what it is.
+
+[13:26] It's not like the zygo, but it is like the sperm and the egg, just before they they they meet in bliss. Um what happens is um they they the spore it lands on a substrate and it starts to grow. Um now, for all intents and purposes of kind of like translating from a highly codified um way of doing things and and uh uh a culture surrounding Koji, you know, in the book, we kind of we break this down. We say, listen, in in all these other cultures, whether it's the Japanese, the Chinese, the Koreans, uh parts of India, Burma, wherever it is that they use these molds, they all have their own languages for these. And that's whereas us as outsiders and newcomers, you know, uh anywhere from nine to two thousand years late to the party, um, we kind of need more of a uh condensed version of what they're talking about, uh, because they're so far ahead of us.
+
+[14:29] So, um, you know, to kind of touch on what you said, Dave, like koji can mean these so many, many things, and and in English, we kind of rely on the context of what we're talking about in general to determine what koji actually means. If I'm using the word spore in the sentence, then I'm talking about like these spores, these seeds of koji. Um, if I am talking about making uh an amino paste, something like a miso, and I say, take your koji and mix it with your beans, then we want people to be able to infer through their working knowledge that we're talking about a grain, a starch that's been cultured with these spores, and the mold has grown. Um, so you know, we we have a whole section in the book. I I believe it's called creating a common koji language.
+
+[15:27] And the purpose of this is to kind of as newcomers come into the fold, we have something we can all commonly talk about and commonly relate with. And then as each of us gets further into our explan exploration with this mold and its uses, then we can like full outright like honor tradition, talk about these these molds and their applications and the foods that are made with them within specific context. Um, but just getting your feet wet, there's so much out there. It's so confusing. We just needed an initial um you know condensation or or cohesiveness that that allowed people to to work with it and talk with it and understand what everybody's talking about.
+
+[16:07] Right so let me see if I get this let me see if I get this right and kind of what the presentation of the of the the book is we'll talk more about the structure of the book in a second. So so fundamentally we're like when you when you're talking about Koji you're talking about one of several different strains of uh are they are they all aspergillus or is there is there one other that you use that's not an aspergillus but they're all aspergillus strains right and yeah well yeah for the most part right yeah we can lump like the tempe molds in there like Rizopis you know um yeah so we yeah any of these filamentous molds right so there's these molds and what's funny about them funny is that many of them uh do are toxic in other words not themselves toxic but they produce what's called mycotoxins which are uh you know uh or I forget whether are they myco or they afh I forget which one they do but anyway so they produce toxins not the ones that we use in cooking right but other wild ones but somehow for thousands of years people have inoculated or they've created the environments where these ones that are beneficial to flavor and to the longevity of a preserved product can thrive and for whatever reason you know thank goodness maybe that's why everyone's still alive but for whatever reason the evil ones tend not to grow on these kind of on these substrates when they're treated in a in a particular way would you say that's accurate? Pretty it's pretty damn close. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
+
+[17:35] So what happens is is you grow this, uh, you grow this mold on uh a substrate. Let's just choose one, a starchy substrate with you know with some protein and whatever other sugar stuff in it, let's say rice, and then uh or soy, and then you that will change the substrate you're growing on, but more importantly, it is a source of enzymes that can then do further reaction. It's those enzymes and it's the broad spectrum of so we so the most important things ever, right, are in terms of this kind of in terms of so your books called Koji Alchemy, but other alchemical things, you got your yeast, you got your acetobacter, you got your um, you got your amylase enzymes from things like uh barley, and what else is is even close to being as important worldwide as Koji? Anything we were talking about this before, Rich. What else is what else is on that list?
+
+[18:31] Lactobacillus, you know, yeah, lactic, yeah, lap, yeah, lactobacillus. What else? Yeah. That's it though, right? Pretty much.
+
+[18:40] Yeah. So like in the in the West, where we had like a boat ton of barley sitting around, and we figured out malting barley pretty early, a lot of our starch conversion of the enzyme we were using was um amylase enzyme, the uh enzymes that turn starch into sugar so that we can then ferment it. Like that was an important uh enzyme. Whereas um in places where koji was kind of you know the the most important thing, you have amylase enzymes there, but unlike amylase enzymes from barley malt, let's say, Koji has a a shotgun spray of crazy enzymes, right? And also a there's there are very few byproducts of barley malt enzymes.
+
+[19:26] In other words, it takes starch, busts the starch down into smaller, uh into smaller dextrins and sugar. Whereas uh koji is a is a mold, it's fungus, it is producing its own byproducts of being alive, which are flavors, and then in addition produces enzymes which continue to act on the product even past their own life cycle. So it's kind of like a wham wham. It's like a wham wham wham wham. There's like a lot of stuff going on with koji.
+
+[19:57] So there's a lot of complexity in um, I don't know whether you want to call them, you want to call them ferments? What do you want to call them? Koji recipes. There's a lot of complexity built into them that isn't necessarily built into a straight enzyme action like um like you get in a barley malt, or even what we would call a straight uh like yeast action, right? Because what happens in a fermentation in a wine, let's say with yeast, is extremely complicated, and there's lots of yeast byproducts and the the the breakdowns of flavor precursors and whatnot in in grapes and whatever else is super nuanced and super important, but nowhere near the broad spectrum kind of you know, fist fight of what's going on in in a in a koji situation.
+
+[20:38] Would you agree? Oh, yeah. And you know, maybe Rich wants to touch on this a little more, but we had this discussion intensively when it comes to like this term autolysis, like this enzymatic breakdown of things, which is often associated with decomposition. Um, you know, what do we call, like you said, koji barrages with enzymes, and then the koji's dead, but the enzymes are in the food. What do we call it then?
+
+[21:05] Yeah, I don't know. What do you call it? We we just we in the book we use the word autolysis. Like we had a we had to make a decision of like what what do we call it, you know? Um for those paying attention, autolysis is not what Vladimir Putin is or is doing.
+
+[21:22] It is when it is when something contains the products within itself to break itself down over time. Would you agree? Yeah, like think decomposition. Think something dies, like the enzymes in your cells break apart things. Uh, you know, there's also you know, black soldier flies and fungi and stuff that fall in, but internally decomposition is an autolytic reaction.
+
+[21:44] Koji does something, and the other fungi do something called extracellular digestion, where they grow on something and they just like lick it and smear it and make it moist with all their enzymes they're producing. They're coming from an external source. But like I said, like what happens when the koji's dead and we're left with these enzymes that aren't enzymes from inside the bean per se, or inside the rice. They're smattered on by by the koji and it's still working, they're still breaking things down. There, you know, you know, in the book, we did we decided to use the term autolysis to also encompass that.
+
+[22:21] Right, right. Uh, by the way, you're really, I don't know if Nastasia may never use soy sauce again. I don't even know why I'm on this show. It's so disturbing. The use of lick it, smear it, make it moist really put us all at the top.
+
+[22:37] Yeah. I mean, like, I'm now I'm doing a video uh in my head, like uh like a like a chakrarone style video where like it's just those words are going in the background. You know what I mean? And we can get that guy. Uh what's his name?
+
+[22:50] El Chambo. What was it? We gotta get that guy. We'll do a video about smearing and licking. Anyway, um so before we get into kind of buying Koji and where it is.
+
+[22:59] Another so and for those of you that like you know still have no idea what we're talking about. Well, Dave, how this is the thing behind sake. It's the thing behind um any kind of uh like shoju shoshu, it's it's behind soy, it's behind miso, like everything, right? Like what else? Like just name some stuff that that the koji is behind.
+
+[23:25] Um yeah, I mean, it basically we can say like 95% of the alcohols that come out of Asia and Southeast Asia are made with this. Anything that's like a soy sauce, uh Shoyu or Tamari, any of that stuff, uh Misu, Goju Zheng, Duchi, um Rich, you got some more. Is the mold on a katsuabushi a koji or not? It is. It is.
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+[23:54] I believe that's aspergellous reparins or glaucus, but it it it is yeah, isn't Glaucus the bad guy from Flash Gordon? Isn't he the one who made the merciless's generals? Well, yeah, and Glaucus is yeah, I think so, but Glaucus itself, too, is like we can't, it's really hard to get in the United States, it's a controlled substance. Can you scrape it off a Katsuabushi and uh culture it? I'm sure you can, and I'm I'm willing to bet that's where a lot of people have gotten it.
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+[24:26] So, all right, so let's let's talk about that for one for one second, then because you know, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, you could go to kind of your local Japanese market, and and if you asked really nicely and if they paid attention to you, they had one or two packets of stuff, and they there was no choice. There was only one thing you could get, and that's that was it. That was all. But now that the state is different, right? People where people can people go to get into this.
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+[24:54] Yeah, in terms of buy the actual spores. Um so to buy the spores, um, we typically uh recommend that people go to Gem Cultures. Um they they've been around for a very long time. If you look at their website, it's fairly um you know archaic. Um, probably something that you would see um you know around the late 80s in terms of a website.
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+[25:18] But it's and you also what you do is you basically email them and they send you um a PayPal based on your order. So it's it's the easiest way that we've found to be able to get a direct source um retailing uh from Japan. Uh and uh they have different, you know, they have all the very basic um you know types of spores that are uh a cut that are customized for each specific make. So if you wanted to make, say, pickles or amazake, there's a specific one called Light Red Miso, Light Rice Miso, uh sorry, light light rice koji, or if you wanted to get one for soy sauce or shoyu um or miso. So there's they have very specific categories for um whatever it is that you want to make.
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+[26:08] Uh, but essentially we like to recommend that people just buy the light rice miso um light rice um koji option to be able to start um with whatever they want uh because it functionally it has plenty of protease enzymes. Uh if you want to just buy co-y code well you're saying you're saying that although there's vast differences between the Koji's, it's better to learn how to use one and then and then later branch out if you feel like you want a specifically different thing right out of any anything because like isn't isn't that what you said in the book yeah that's extra percent the the the the light rice miso spores from gem cultures um it's it's like a broad spectrum so whether you want to do an amino paste or you want to do sake or uh amazaki whatever it is you've got enough amylase production and enough protease production to pretty much make any food you want at at an acceptable and delicious level so but let's talk a little bit about so you you want to start with the the white rice koji and and it's a good place and I always say to people like with hydrocolloids even which is you know far simpler because the stuff happens much faster choose one use it a lot get to know it and then if you feel like you need to branch out branch out right yeah and that's our that's completely throughout the whole book. Yeah and also because a lot of this book a lot of the book i in the beginning parts especially and uh John you've read the book right yeah is about is about um trying to get you over that hump of worrying about it right trying to simplify doing it because for any of you that like have like read spiels on things like soy sauce you're like oh my god or like hacho miso you're like oh my god like I gotta age it two years, I gotta age it a year, three years. If it goes wrong, what? Blah blah blah, you know what I mean?
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+[28:04] And so a lot of the first part of the book is trying to get over that hump of worrying about it. And I think part of that is worrying about kind of which culture that you you're gonna use, which which strain you're gonna use. But on the other hand, I had a question in from um I had a question in, I can't figure out who it who it's from. But the question was, what about people using koji for cocktails? And I know, you know, um, you know, my partner at existing conditions, Don Lee, before we had to close for COVID, he was experimenting, and I know he was talking to you, Rich, a lot about uh Koji and Cocktails, and he was using a lot of the kind of stranger kojies because in cocktails when we he wasn't doing kind of long-age things, he was doing things that were relatively short-aged and where like the strain, the flavor of the strain of koji itself was an important background note or note.
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+[28:55] So, for instance, like the koji that produces a boat ton of citric acid. And when for those of you that don't know, like production of acid, like the what which strain is it that does the acid production, guys? Uh yeah, and uh the specific one that I gave Don was the Awamori, um, the Okinawan version. So that's a black sport koji. And that so for those of you that are keeping track, it's Okinawan Koji, and the whole I correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is is that you wanted it to be a high acid because the acid was a preservative on the ferment prior to distillation.
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+[29:28] So because you were gonna distill it, the acid wasn't going to come through to the final distilled product, but the acid was very helpful in preserving the product in the very hot Okinawan environment prior to distillation, true or false. Well, yes, that's true, but it's uh it's twofold. It's also it helps retard lactobacillus contamination. Right, right, right. Right.
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+[29:51] Which can create must be flavors and whatnot, you know, in in an alcohol, right? That would that would have to be dank and dark versus like light and crisp. Right. So and then so people so if you get the conditions right though, what's interesting is because if you tell me I'm gonna grow a uh for instance, if you say someone, hey, uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna add malt or amylase enzyme to something like sweet potato, which Don did to clear out the starch with Koji, right? But if you're gonna do something like that, you're like, how sweet's it gonna be, right?
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+[30:22] Because there's only X amount of there's only X amount of byproduct in there, it's only gonna get X amount sweet, and X usually isn't that high. So I thought in my head, I was like thinking the same thing with the acid. I was like, how high an acid are you actually gonna get? And the answer is much more acidic than you would think that you would get because it's not a breakdown product, like it's actually producing the citric acid, and it is real. You can make very, very, very tart things with it.
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+[30:49] Dude, if you eat like the black koji or the brown koji of these species of luciens, like grown on a medium, if you just eat the the raw koji, um it tastes like you're eating sour patch kids. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. And and for cocktail applications, I think it's quite interesting. So while it might be challenging to use in a food application, I think the application to I'm only gonna use a half an ounce of this, or I'm only gonna use, you know, whatever, I think is is pretty interesting.
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+[31:20] You know, I know Don thinks it's interesting, and that's why he's been kind of experimenting with it. Yeah, yeah. So and I think you have with cocktails, you've got both. So you've got like the short term use of like, yeah, you can make an amazaki out of the black koji that's like got all these great koji notes and like the you know, the the honeysuckle and the the light mushroom flavors and all that stuff, plus the acid. But like, for example, we did um uh over a year ago, I made this shiok koji using um uh cucumber water.
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+[31:52] Um explain shiok quick. So uh shiokoji is like inoculated grain with a mold uh mixed with water and salt, and it's allowed to ferment out. Um and it's used as like a short-term quick way to enhance the flavor of something, whether it's sauteed vegetables or like a grilled steak. Um so I I made one, a very diluted one that kept the salt at around 3%. Uh used um uh I'm sorry, it wasn't cucumber, it was uh watermelon.
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+[32:25] Uh we had juiced a bunch and we were making watermelon pickles and all this stuff. So all the all the residual liquid from there um and the black koji rice. Um at first it was kind of gross, but it sat for a year and it was fantastic. And and there's this great uh bartender here in Cleveland, Will Hollingsworth of the spotted owl, uh gave him a bunch, and he was doing some crazy like gin fizzes with like this black watermelon shio koji liquid um that he said we're we're banging. Since you brought up the shio koji and the water and the salt, another huge section of the book is trying to categorize different kinds of different kinds of products and different kinds of reactions, right?
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+[33:05] So you have so it's like the question is how long so you like the things you talk about are because you're saying, hey, listen, when you're starting, start with a particular strain, like the you know, white rice koji. Start with there, boom. Now the question is, what do you want to have happen? And so it's controlling how much liquid is present, right? How much salt is present, right?
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+[33:26] And you choose those things and you choose what kind of flavors are going to develop and over what time scale. And so, you know, you talk about pace versus application to solids, things that are are soaked, and it's just breaking down, basically thinking about it, trying to trying to make for the reader, trying to turn koji into part of their toolkit and having them think about it in terms of how am I looking what am I looking for? Short-term effect or long-term effect. This episode is brought to you by Bend a Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. And here I am.
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+[34:03] I'll open up my box. Let me see here. It comes with a uh a delicacies France and an essentials. Ooh, red fife. Red fife is a wheat that is became famous a couple of years ago as one of the old heritage wheat varieties that was grown in the East Coast.
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+[34:25] And so I'm gonna use this to make Sylvester Graham's actual graham bread because eastern grown uh wheat, much like red fife uh wheat, was the wheat that Sylvester Graham uh used to make the original gram breads, which bear no relationship to graham crackers. So I'm excited to make some bread with the red fi flour. Ooh, Nastasia. This bird he's living your life here. I have a bag of pearled uh faro from Maine Grains, grown here in US.
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+[34:57] I know you do. You're the queen, you're the queen of Faro, right? Yeah, and yet here it is in my house. Go to bendatable.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRM's programming.
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+[35:14] All right, now we're back for real people. Now listen, uh, during these times of COVID, everyone's turning to things like baking bread, which is why I've mentioned this before. You cannot buy a grain mill now. And I was at the farmer's market, and the supplier of artisanal wheats and grains at the farmer's market was like, we're out, we have nothing. Because everyone is baking now.
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+[35:42] And Nastasia, you hate the fact that not Dax, I'm not talking about that, but in general, like the increase in bed bread baking, you dislike, right? Yes. And what about we haven't talked about it? What about like the increase of people making pickles and whatnot? Also hate?
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+[35:59] No. You're okay with pickles, but not bright? Yeah. Yeah. Why?
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+[36:03] Because pick people don't post pictures of pickle on the internet. Is that why? I haven't seen a lot. But that's why. Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
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+[36:11] Okay. But what I'm saying is that now is a perfect time to start doing uh koji-based work. And if you get the book, what you'll learn is is that there it's not only like uh, you know, something it takes two months, two years, whatever to do, there's a lot of things you can do with koji that can be done inside of a couple of days. True or false, folks. That is very true.
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+[36:35] Yeah. And so you take, and you know, when we had the internet kind of explosion over here, and so I don't know how much of that was caught before. Like what I was saying is is that a lot of the book is is is about a lot of the beginning part of the book is about breaking down um code like Koji work into different kinds of categories, a lot of it based on uh moisture, uh like how much water is present and how much salt is present, because by adjusting those two things, you're kind of adjusting like which reactions happen and the rate at which reactions happen, and kind of uh, you know, whether we're looking at like short-term more seasoning things, more protein breakdown going on. So, you want to talk about talk about that a little bit or no? Yeah, of course.
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+[37:20] Um, so one of the things that we have always practiced in terms of koji once we started playing with it, was its multiple multitude of uses just from the standpoint of its versatility. So on the front end, when you start doing things that are more uh sweet-based, you can easily gain sugars from pretty much any starch that you add it to. So not only adding it to grains, but um if we're talking about, say, some fruits that are less than uh desirables, you know, something you pick up at the grocery store that isn't all that great, and you really want something that um tastes much better, all you have to do is just basically slap some koji on it, whether you vacuum bag it or you just make a little slurry of amazake with just equal parts water and and koji with uh you know some starch uh and just let it let it sit for a couple days. And what's interesting is that you gain all this complexity as well as the you know, the sugar uh activity sacrification, um, you know, and all these other flavor compounds that are going on. I mean, it's not you know total flavor bomb like the long-term stuff that you do with a miso or soy sauce, but it's you know really interesting that you can just take um you know a fruit or a vegetable and just marinate it and have these really interesting and awesome flavors.
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+[38:38] And that's some of the thing that's some of the stuff we cover in the book in terms of you know, not only are you harnessing the starches from the ingredients that you apply it to, but you're also building up the sugar such that you can go through any sort of natural fermentation process that you want, whether it be you know, building up some lacto, um, to be able to do kraut or some yogurt or some cultured butter. Um, you can also you know just let it hang out longer and you know, add it to some kombucha and then you know, fire the sugar that way. So you can develop all these sugars, which is pretty amazing. And then also the on the other side of the coin, in terms of the um the marinating side, is that you have these uh protease enzymes that break down proteins fairly quickly into amino acids, and you can quickly yield a really delicious steak. Um, we like to refer to you know using koji uh for marination as you know an automatic barbecue sauce because you're using the inherent starches of the grains plus the inherent uh proteins of the actual ingredient, you end up matching the flavors, you know, perfectly in terms of what you're adding because you're not adding anything else.
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+[39:50] Because if you think about marinades, and the optimal marinade is the marinade that makes the base ingredient taste more like itself than any other ingredient, and this is what you can accomplish with Koji. And these are the sort of things that we talk about in terms of lowering the amount of salinity uh and adding more water such that you can get more you know infiltration and contact to be able to create, you know, basically these flavors and these larger mass pieces of food that that you end up um uh eating immediately, versus you know, building a mash with lots of salt and less less water to be able to go throughout a longer processing time to create more complex flavors with waves of fermentation. So with Koji, you can pretty much make any ferment that you want. And in a lot of ways, it makes it more delicious because of all the other things that come along for the ride with all the enzymes that are happening and then the natural progression of different waves of fermentation. Man.
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+[40:57] Yeah, let's also, because I know we're gonna run out. I want to talk more about specifically the structure of the book, because one of the things that's interesting about the book is we have a couple things we've got to talk about. So I'm just gonna tell you all the things we're gonna talk about, and you guys can choose the order. Um the structure, the structure of the book, right, is that you have a lot of people who are um who have kind of mini essays within the book, and you've chosen a lot of um chefs, some scientists, uh, some writers who have kind of put these micro essays in. And one of the things I think is interesting about these kind of micro essays is that it's not that they contradict what you say, but you don't normalize everyone's opinion to your own.
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+[41:40] And so it's they really are sometimes different kinds of perspectives, right? On and it that that was that's kind of interesting. The the other thing is there's a section which is very kind of apropos of today on cultural appropriation of this. Um but that dovetails into um kind of the more the the newer applications, for instance, koji on fresh meat, which is, I think, a revelation. I know John had some when he was out uh at LARDAR and was super interested in talking about the Koji aging on kind of fresh meat.
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+[42:15] And then there's there's the controversy of because one of the other interesting things is in your book, you have at the end a hasset plan uh about how to do dry cured meats, right? And how to incorporate koji into your dry cured meat program. But then we should talk about the fact that there's this the whole kind of koji on fresh meat is a brand new horizon, really, that no one has kind of worked with. And I don't know that anyone's really kind of figured out that unless you have the kind of microbiology or the or the the proof of how that works, right? And then uh lastly but not least, you cook your rice in the oven in the oven.
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+[42:54] In the oven in the oven with water, and and you say that you you listen to the way the French cook rice, the people who on all in all of Earth on the entire planet Earth, everyone agrees that the French do not know how to cook rice. It like everyone agrees that the French are the world's worst rice cooks. The world's worst rice cooks. But you're not eating that rice. Okay.
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+[43:21] You're not eating it, you're making it, you're using it as a medium to to create koji. So it doesn't matter what it is. In terms of edibility. Right. The the Koji is a it's I mean, I will describe it as a sentient living organism.
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+[43:36] Like it wants to live and wants to thrive and survive and reproduce. Like it doesn't care how well the French cook rice or how well the Japanese greens do. It just wants gelatinized college. Oh my god. So for those of you that don't know, here's what they do: they they put all the rice in a hotel pan with water, throw it into the oven and walk away from it until it is quote unquote done.
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+[44:06] And the stuff at the bottom, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's mushy. But the thing is you still have to fluff it, right? Because for those of you that koji needs air to survive. It needs to be aerated to survive, right? It is an aerobic McGilla cutty.
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+[44:19] Is that not true? That is true. So I would think that this kind of French like mushenstein way of cooking rice would make less air. But what you're telling me is that you can fluff even this French rice, like you can fluff it up to uh uh enough of a degree that you get good aeration for the koji, I guess is what you're telling me. Yeah, yeah.
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+[44:41] I mean, you totally do. And like, here's the whole thing like if you were a sake maker and your goal was to win every metal and be heralded as the best sake maker in the world, you wouldn't necessarily use this technique. But for large applications, like when we cook off this whole whole tail pan of rice and the bottom, you know, half inch to an inch is kind of it's clumped up, it's slightly mushy. Yeah, we're not talking, by the way, nice crispy bottom, like Tadig style stuff. We're not talking.
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+[45:13] No, no, no, we're talking like, yeah, like it's it's mush. We're talking like you'd get at a French restaurant. Don't order rice at a French restaurant. You're you are most likely if if you're gonna make sake, you you're gonna make an amazake. Or if you're gonna marinate meat, you're gonna use a shio koji or that sort of thing.
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+[45:34] So, like these overcooked rices are great. Like when you make an amazake and you take your inoculated rice um and you take some cooked rice, using that overcooked mushy stuff is the perfect application for that. Um it's already broken down, it's you know, it's its surface area is already already increased because it's broken down so much and all that. So it it gives you one cooking method that allows you then to be able to do multiple things um that you would essentially need to cook separately to achieve. Um, and and that's why we developed it.
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+[46:14] And it came down to like, you know, with me working in restaurants and having my own restaurant, like there was a time I'd be like, you know, I'd need the dishwasher to do it. And I wasn't gonna get into like the ins and outs of like inoculation and all that and what's happening with them. I'd just be like, listen, get this rice cooked and I'll deal with it later. Um, and that's why we developed it. It was like at the base level, what's what's the best that could happen?
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+[46:39] And then out of that too, Dave, which was super interesting, you know, we found out like, yeah, the koji will grow on overcooked, blown out, spent rice grains. It's not gonna be as as different. Um, we end up with different products then, like like our instant marin that we have in the book. That overcooked rice is perfect for it, or like the instant amazaki that we have. Uh, there you go.
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+[47:05] It and it's got a use and it's got an application. And lo and behold, against everything, all the research we did and everything we were told about how the rice has to be perfect, we didn't see anything really noticeably suffering in enzymatic activity in terms of the end result of the product. So, while yes, you could run it through a lab and say, Well, yeah, no, your enzyme activity is 30% down from what it would have been if the grain was perfect and all this. But for the end result and the deliciousness of the food and the usability of the ingredient, that that 30% drop in enzyme is is imperceptible. When it comes down to like the real world application and use, it's it's not noticeable.
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+[47:51] I mean, you know, if if you're if you're in a a restaurant or a maker that has the time, the money, the resources to like fully optimize all that to make things perfect, like sure, go ahead and do it. But for most of us out there, that's not realistic. That's not how we run our businesses, that's not how we cook our food. Well, also you're telling me you don't think it has an effect, so why do it? If it's if it's gonna, if it's gonna bork your if it's gonna bork your uh production and it's not gonna make it more delicious, why do it?
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+[48:22] Well, I mean, that's that's part of it too. Like I mean, like you told me you you think it tastes just as good. And so if it tastes just as good, and you can now actually do it as opposed to not being able to do it, then do it, right? And that's that's a lot of the case we make in the book. Yeah.
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+[48:39] Well, that's I thought I I had to bring it up because people are gonna know. I mean, I had to bring it up. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, listen, Rich and I get this these this question all the time, and it's like, you know, if if you want to nerd out and get into the fun of it, like, sure, like optimize everything you can, have the strictest controls, throw all your resources at it. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, honestly, man, there isn't much of a difference.
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+[49:05] What's more important is ingredient sourcing and how you care for the foods. So it's more important that you get, you know, if you want like the rice and the aroma of the rice and the nuttiness, all that to shine, get the best tasting, best quality rice you can start with. Same with your barley or your beans, you know. Um, come on, we all know like commodity pork up against like some heritage stirrock. Like there's a big difference in like the quality of the base ingredient, um, in terms of like the flavor and the texture and all these things.
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+[49:40] Um, and you know, ethics are a whole nother thing with that too. So that's way more important than you know, some of these other things, because if you get a base level of enzymatic activity, you're really not going to notice much of a difference in the end result of the product. Like it's just in our opinion, it's just not there. Well, you know what else is interesting about this discussion, I feel, especially for like listeners of this program, is you know, we you know, we have people who are, you know, professionals, right? Although none of us are working now, but we have people who are professionals who are listeners, and then we also have people who are working at home and like kind of and I think we don't often talk enough about how those kind of things are different.
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+[50:26] Like both want like quality, but the person who's at home like has the ability, because they're only making small quantities to completely nerd out to get like each individual grain of rice perfect, and then to kind of go on and do all those kind of micro micro controls where in a restaurant, you know, where you have to make X number of bazillion portions, and then you have to make it relatively consistent, not just today, but like tomorrow, next week, next year, and make it all at a reasonable price with the staff that you happen to have at the time, different kind of problem. But put both people interested in qualities, but like your drivers are very different. And I think we don't really, I think that's one of the things people don't talk about enough about the difference between cooking professionally versus like just experimentation at home. You know what I mean? Right.
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+[51:21] And I I think part of our goal though is to like dispel that, right? Because you have like the restaurants on the world's 50 best list who are taking the same approach that the home cook is taking. Yet, you know, I run a quick service delicatessen. And we we can't take that approach. I don't have the time, I don't have the resources, I don't have the labor.
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+[51:45] Um, you know, so it's it's about you know, you know, cost and and you know, all those things there. So um, you know, we we essentially our goal in writing this book was showing that whether you're a home cook or a professional cook, we all don't know much about this, and we're all trying to figure it out. So let's kind of all start at the same place. Figure out your own personal optimizations that are best for your individual needs and pursue those. Yeah.
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+[52:16] And and that's exactly why. You want to talk next about what you say, Rich? Sorry. Um, and that's exactly why we um have so many perspectives in the book in terms of what you had talked about with people and their ideas speaking in their own voices and combining them together, is that we ourselves come from very different backgrounds in terms of what we grew up eating, what we started making, how we've developed our you know, culinary expertise. Um, and a lot of it, you know, in the in the more recent times of social media is as a result of collaborating with people who are also as enthusiastic about Koji and all the products that it makes, that we just started exchanging these ideas, and everybody comes at it from a different background, a different place, a different culture, different desires.
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+[53:08] And it was important for us to be able to convey that in such a way that that's how we learned, that's how we shared, that's how we gained all this knowledge, is the result of a community working together. And we wanted to give people multiple voices because we may not be the right people to convey you know a specific piece of information that we might not know as much about, or that somebody really knows in depth. And that's that's why it was um that's why it's key for us to bring in all these voices and try to make it as cohesive as possible because we're we're not the sole experts, we all all it all are the experts. And that's that's what makes this beautiful about um you know this koji community, this fermentation community preservation. Um it's just um really amazing to be part of it.
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+[53:59] And uh we want to show that there are we aren't the sole experts, that it's a matter of all of us working together to to gain knowledge and improve our skill set. Well, let's tackle this. Speaking of improving skill set and knowledge. Let's tackle this next section next. So, for those of you who already know something about Koji, right, you're probably thinking things like sake, things like Miso, things like soy sauce, um, maybe something like amazake.
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+[54:32] But in the book, this kind of new wave of koji happening here in the US, that you know, that you two are you know, frankly leading the leading the pack on Koji in baked goods, koji in meat applications, koji in like regular kind of western dry salamis, like just like koji in basically koji in a very wide, like it's kind of like a koji taster. It's koji everywhere, right? So it's like it's like applying koji to places that you would never and products of koji to places that you wouldn't think. And kind of this book, I think is a lot about just opening up and showing that there's a whole huge range of things that you might not have thought of. And I think the application that um guy, I know Jeremy, you got a lot of press, getting a lot of press and a lot of just butt back buzz back in the in the pro world on is the koji, uh the koji aging of um whole like whole muscle meats that are intended to be cooked later, like for instance steaks.
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+[55:37] I've never had one. John had one when he was out there in Cleveland and said it was delicious, correct, John? Yeah, yeah. Everything was very delicious over there. Yeah.
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+[55:47] And so you want to talk about that like as a new kind of application, and then maybe from there we can go on to the section where you were talking about what appropriation means to you versus like a love and a love of a of a product and making new applications for it. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, with with using it this way in meat, and and you know, early on too, and in some of these workings with meat, we're actually growing the mold on the surface of raw meats and then cooking and eating them. You know, early on some people were like, well, that's not necessarily the best way to get the enzymatic activity into the food. Like shouldn't you inject it or vacuum marinate it or you know some of these things.
+
+[56:32] And we're like, yeah, but I don't always and and and a lot of uh even professional cooks don't have some don't have a vacuum machine. Um you know some don't have a realistic way to to properly inject it where it's where it's gonna be evenly dispersed and and work well. On top of that the culturing of the mold on the outside of meats or seafoods or whatever these proteins are um as long as you can pay attention to it it's a pretty straightforward and easy process and doesn't really uh require much of a specialized setup um you know is really just about ease of use and and why wouldn't this work and when when it started working and the controls that we're using to do it were refined um and we saw that it was delicious and that we were eating it ourselves and serving to other people and people weren't getting sick they were enjoying it like all the check marks were hitting um outside of like verified lab analysis and and long term verifiable study um we're like, something about this works. We're not a hundred percent sure why it's working, how it's working, but and you know, all the inner workings of what's happening, but we're proving anecdotally and through real-time usage that that it's it's working and it's delicious. Um it's really interesting too because when you when you do a side by side comparison of just you know, uh let's say you have three three steaks, three cuts, all the same cut, one just seasoned with salt, um, or even plain, one that's uh either marinated in amazaki or shiok, and then one where you've grown the mold on, there are drastic differences in flavor between all three of them.
+
+[58:37] Intensely drastic differences in flavor. And a lot of this testing, too, we paired up. I work really closely with the Austin folks at Certified Angus Beef. Um, uh Diana Clark, who's who's down there, she's a bovine anatomist, which is like one of the coolest jobs on the planet. Um, she is literally a meat scientist and a butcher all at the same time.
+
+[59:01] Um, you know, we did a lot of testing with like their brand stamped aged products, you know, aged and carried out by her, and at the time, Dr. Phil Bass, we were working with, um, compared to some of these koji products, and it was like, it was like, wait a second, this steak that you grew mold on, you held at 90 degrees and high humidity for two days, grew mold on it, we cooked it and ate it, was eating very, very similar. It's still a different product, but very, very similarly in texture and flavor to a 30-day dry aged, or even in some cases a 45-day dry aged. You know, as I said, we're not sure exactly what's going on, but we do know that it can be made safely, and we do know that it's super delicious, and you're getting a product comparable to these ultra-age products, which are very expensive because of the time invested in them in 36 hours. Um you know, it was just a huge revelation to us, and something that's like it's super fun, it's unique, it's delicious, it it hits all the check marks.
+
+[1:00:15] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. You know, I sp I've spoken to some scientists about it, and they're freaked out by it. Yeah, they're freaked out. Well, because the thing is like until something is like they hate anecdotal verification, right? Yeah, they they want verification, verification.
+
+[1:00:35] So, I mean, there's a lot of different, there's a lot of different uh what's it called? There's a lot of variables, right? So yeah. We all make the assumption in general, true or false. We we all make the assumption that the inside of whole muscle cuts is relatively okay and that nothing's gonna get in there, right?
+
+[1:00:51] So then we're assuming that like unless you stab it or something that we're relatively good. I've heard scientists get mad at me for that, right? Here's why I'm saying this is because like you think about if you're gonna cook the outside of a of a of a something, you're gonna cook kill most of the surface bacteria. I was interested because I was reading um I was reading some some work about um cultures that eat uh spoiled meats and like whether whether or not they get sick, like literally spoiled meats, right? Or like spoiled like hung high birds, things like this.
+
+[1:01:25] Um and you know, and so you know, with the the thing that food scientists are worried about are enterotoxins that are produced by bacteria that are not destroyed by heat, so that even the cooking process is not going to eliminate them. Uh and then right before we got on, so I didn't get a chance to finish it. I was reading where someone was writing an article on whether or not like you can get uh staph-based enterotoxin on raw meat and why it tends to only happen on already cooked meat, right? So there perhaps is some sort of internal safety mechanism provided by the growing koji and the natural, like the natural way that the meat is, right? But the thing is is that especially if it has an application like this where you're saying that there's an economic reason to do it, it seems like you should be able to go get big beef to shell out the the hundred grand to do the study, no?
+
+[1:02:19] Well, and that's that's in the works right now. I mean, that's that's something we've been working on for a number of years. And it's it's something that that um finally after after a few years of like really working hand in hand with them, like we're we're we're getting there. Like COVID's definitely gonna be throwing a wrench in some things. Um but that's that's the idea.
+
+[1:02:41] You know, there's there's a lot of moving parts to that too, right? Um were my numbers about right? Is it about a hundred grand? Uh it uh it could be considerably more than that. Really?
+
+[1:02:52] Oh, because there are they're gonna prove multiple things? We're look I there's a lot to prove there. Right. Um we're also looking at like long-term laboratory viability of this. Like I mean, we're we're potentially looking in millions, um, you know, course of a five or 10-year study, uh, looking at every variable involved in this.
+
+[1:03:18] And then on top of that, the development of foolproof, you know, HACC plans for large-scale production of funds along these lines. Um that that millions of dollars, that's also like organoleptic study, right? Not just safety study, then that's actually like process study. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's like going from essentially nothing lab verifiable to something on store shelves.
+
+[1:03:45] Right, right, right. Because you know, because in general, for people who don't know, like if you have a question and the the early one when we were dealing with dry, because dry cured meat has a plans, of which there's one in the back of the book, uh, you know, if you weren't following like the procedures, this is back in the day that the government wanted you to follow, you had to independently verify. And so what would happen is is that you would hire a lab, they would come in, they would take your raw product and inoculate it with nasty crap, put it through your process, and then verify that whatever process you were putting it through consistently killed said nasty crap. And that's how you would verify that your product was that your procedure was safe. Um, but I guess in this case, it's even a little more complicated because there it's just is your variant of something that we accept good versus this thing that we have no idea about, is it good in general, right?
+
+[1:04:42] I guess it's a slightly harder problem with Koji, right? Exactly, exactly. And one of the reasons is because like this direct culturing technique, because it's new. We just, you know, it's it's well, even though we've been working with this mold for thousands of years across the world, doing it in this way, um, as we've done, and keep in mind, we've done this with other molds for centuries or thousands of years. Uh, but this one particular hasn't been used in that way.
+
+[1:05:13] So we have we've just got to start at at zero point. And for those of you who are, you know, are keeping track of this argument and are gonna say something like, We do this all the time. We he we hang our sausages for like 48 hours, 98 degrees, a high humidity. No, no, no, listen, people. That is a that is an acid producing ferment, and you keep the high temperature and something like that so that the uh acidity uh the acidity rises, the pH drops, and that is in effect a preservative effect.
+
+[1:05:43] So like when you have like um, you know, uh Andy Ricker, whether or not it's legal, so I'm not saying he does it for his restaurant, but when he at home he's doing his fermented wings and his fermented ribs, that's an acid ferment where the pH is dropping. So you're increasing safety over time while you're keeping it at a high temperature. The koji that we're talking about here is not an acid ferment, and that's what makes it interesting as regards to safety, because the high temperature inoculation on the koji is not accompanied by a uh uh concomitant uh pH drop. Is that correct what I'm saying? Right, exactly.
+
+[1:06:19] And that's kind of like when developing the technique, like, you know, we we add salt and sugar to the meat before we we put um you know the rice flour and spore coating on there. Um, you know, we we we try to introduce other safety controls because we don't have that pH drop with this, and we're not looking for a pH drop with this, because this is meant to be eaten just like a a fresh steak would be. Good good by the way. Good good uh late in the show use of spore. I appreciate that.
+
+[1:06:44] Yeah, me too. Thank you. Uh and I have lost track of exactly how much time we have, but we're definitely over an hour. So we should on the way out, just why don't you talk about the the uh I know you were worried about it because you actually addressed it in the book. Why don't you just talk about appropriation and then we'll be out.
+
+[1:07:08] Oh, and can we can we also just really quick, I'll let Rich take appropriation. Um, but can we say uh, you know, there's many places people can get the book with COVID going on right now. I know my local bookstore here in Cleveland, Visible Voice Books, I can order through them just as I would Amazon or someplace else. And it keeps a local bookstore running and keeps money in my community. You can also get it directly from Chelsea Green, and they are fulfilling orders ten times faster than Amazon is at this point.
+
+[1:07:39] Uh people are ordering from Chelsea Green and getting the book two days later. Whereas we're hearing from from people who ordered it or pre-ordered from Amazon, there's a week or two week delay in some cases. Uh so you know, we just want to make sure that you know, contact your local business. Uh even some of them may be shut down, they still may be able to behind the scenes fulfill some some uh orders for you and get it shipped to you. All right, and with that, I'm gonna let Rich have the last word, but thanks to uh Jeremy and Rich for coming on.
+
+[1:08:08] The book is Koji Alchemy. It's out later this week. Uh as Jeremy said, uh try to get it from your your LBS, if possible. Um and uh yeah, Rich. So Rich is gonna talk about um about well, appropriation in general, what it means what it means to him and uh kind of how you address it in the book.
+
+[1:08:29] Uh so in terms of cultural uh appropriation, you know, we understand the concerns behind it, but it just comes down to we, you know, I I like to think about it in the way of you know, when you are developing a recipe, um, you know, even if it's back in the day when you have specific ingredients in a specific environment with whatever equipment you have, you develop a specific recipe based on what what you're just using at the at that point in time. And at some point it becomes delicious and it becomes well received. And you know, once these things are well received, people they gain popularity, there becomes a process, it becomes a standard, and then people start you know wanting it from all over the world. And in this day and age, we have whatever product you want, whatever equipment you want, and you know, whatever ingredients you want to add to it. And then our idea is that you know, with this accessibility, you can pretty much make whatever you want.
+
+[1:09:31] And with Koji, you have the enzymes, you have the fermentation starter, you have you know, all sorts of things, sweet or savory that you can do with no bounds. We just see it, we just see it as a way to make food more delicious. Um, and it doesn't matter where it comes from. As with every cook, as you go throughout your life, you learn from all sorts of people of all walks of life. Uh, and then you begin to you obviously respect the traditions and the precise, the precision of you know very specific ingredients and products, and you learn exactly how to make them.
+
+[1:10:08] And yes, you can learn you can you know spend your entire life to make the best soy sauce ever. Uh, but not of not all of us are tasked to do that. A lot of us are adventurous and want to be able to make whatever it is that we want. And we can do that, and that's the power of Koji. And you're specifically not putting yourself out in this book as the expert of the traditional techniques.
+
+[1:10:30] It's quite the opposite. Exactly. Quite the opposite. And keep in mind, no less than a dozen different cultures throughout Asia and Southeast Asia, like claim koji or whatever their native word for the mold is as their own. Um, so already before we even got, you know, the Western world even got hit.
+
+[1:10:51] Um, you know, you have it being used across cultures. Like it, it it's something that's universal, and that's what's so fantastic about it. All right, and we'll leave it with that. Thanks. Uh thanks folks for coming on.
+
+[1:11:03] The book is Koji Alga Alchemy, Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:11:28] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:11:50] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at BentoTable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and H R N gets $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:27] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live. Well, yes, but I'm I'm on the Heritage Radio Network. But again, recording from wherever we happen to be. And Stas, are you back in uh Stanford? Yeah, for good.
+
+[0:42] For good. For good. Like you like you literally have zero footprint in on the island of Manhattan right now. Zero footprint. Like like zero, like nothing.
+
+[0:52] Not a bed, not a toaster. Nope. You you are now a Connecticut resident. Yep. For now.
+
+[1:02] For now. For now. For now. That was uh all right. Uh well, and we got uh Matt now in Brooklyn, still wearing pants in the in the pseudo booth.
+
+[1:13] Am I right, Matt? Everything about this was true, yes. Yeah, all right. And we have uh John from his uh internet challenged Murray Hill undisclosed location. How you doing?
+
+[1:26] Actually up at the Africa Center right now. Whoa. Well you talk about that. So John's at the Africa Center. The Africa Center is the place where had the COVID not shut everything down, we would currently be having our African slash American exhibit from the Museum of Food and Drink.
+
+[1:44] Uh and it is still there installed, just waiting for us to be allowed to let people in to see it. Uh so how's it going up there? It's good. Uh we're moving out of the old museum space in Brooklyn. So I had to bring a bunch of stuff up here.
+
+[1:59] Um and yeah, it's really awesome to I mean, awesome and heartbreaking at the same time, but seeing the exhibit, you know, it's 90% of the way up and it looks so good. I'm looking at the quilt right now, which is you know 16 feet high by 27 feet uh wide, made up of 400 quilt blocks, each one representing representing a different African American culinary figure is contributed to our nation's cuisine, and it looks awesome. And it's gonna be really cool when this opens up to the public and everyone can come see it. So uh how many people are you there with? Uh me and uh Jack, Debbie, Debbie's husband.
+
+[2:37] Just the two of us, yeah. So uh do you just run around the exhibit going? That's what I would be doing. Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah, not doing anything else, yeah.
+
+[2:47] Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's what I would do. Yeah, I mean, I can't wait for that thing to open again. Yeah, it's gonna be great.
+
+[2:53] It's gonna look really, really good. Yeah. Uh so I'm presuming do any of you have any interesting food, cooking or drink-related uh, you know, quarantine stories from the last week to share. Uh yeah, it's the worst. Hey, I don't know if you noticed.
+
+[3:20] And then blended it with sherry, some of that good sherry vinegar, some of that good mustard. And I was just shocked at how much that tasted like a Hollandaise. Um Well, I mean, it's all the ingredients just cooked in a different order. Ex Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it was just like so on the point.
+
+[3:37] And I don't know, I've never been able to make a Hollandaise. It always breaks on me. So this is gonna be my new go-to way of doing that. Have you s have you tried the Harold McGee uh, you know, the the simple way you just mix everything and heat it? No, I have not.
+
+[3:55] Yeah, you gotta do the Harold McGee, the Harold McGee simple, simple Hollandaise, where you just throw all the crap into a pan and then melt it into a Hollandaise. Um the theory being if you never break the emulsion of the butter, you never break the emulsion of the butter. So he doesn't use clarified butter, he uses whole butter. Cause like the original Hollandaise is like a huge pain in the Petudelheimer. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:18] Yeah. So Har Harold Harold uh fundamentally treats it as like a um, you know, like you're just mounting like you're mounting butter at the end of a sauce when you're making it, and so he just does it that way. So yeah, oh I'll have to try that next one. But I've never tried a uh how many degrees did you say your egg was? Uh 147.
+
+[4:41] What an hour? Seven god. Like again, I cook eggs in Celsius, my friend. It's not deep frying. Hold a second.
+
+[4:50] 147 Fahrenheit and Celsius. Fahrenheit. Yeah, I know, yeah. Well, obviously, but I'm trying I can't do that. Six almost sixty-four.
+
+[5:00] So sixty, you're doing an almost sixty-four degree degree egg. But freaking John, who is a uh is a a Belgian style person, a a francophone and a francophile, is cooking his eggs in Fahrenheit. Kel Kel horror, as we say in English. Kel horror. Uh anyway, I've never tried that.
+
+[5:21] Sounds good. Uh, what about I actually did have I had I had a cooking issue for you, or more it was a thing that I was wondering about while doing it. So a few weeks ago, I met up with my friends for a socially distant hangout on Cape Cod, and my uh the guy who married us, actually, Philip, had been out foraging and gave us a bunch of muscles. So we came home and cooked up this uh what it was like a green curry mush mussel dish that we were sort of emulating from this place in Chicago we like a lot. Um as I was cooking it, it was giving me like adjuvant because I, you know, we're cooking the mussels in the broth, and I'm worried, like, well, what if one of these things is just filled with mud or something real exciting, and now we're cooking that in the broth we're gonna consume it in.
+
+[6:16] And it made me wonder: do restaurants never do this? Like, do they always cook them off to the side and then add them into like how how do restaurants actually handle the uncertainty of what is it within your muscle? Uh yeah, I think they just take the crapshoot, my friend. Like they, you know, yeah. We well, we buy them in sacks, we don't forage them.
+
+[6:36] And then they have the tags on them, right? And then typically you'll scrub them, and then if you, you know, if you're like me, you sit there on each one and you rip the beard out, and then you make sure and you make sure that they are um you make sure that they are closed, and you throw away the ones that won't close when you tap on them if they're open, right? Uh and then you're also supposed to throw away uh any of them that are too light because obviously those are empty, but the dreaded one, the one that uh your boy Anthony Bourdain used to to dread uh was the mud-filled, so heavy, uh closed, dead uh death muscle I have never actually seen one out of a commercial package ever I've gotten plenty of dead ones that I've thrown away um I've gotten plenty of ones where it has excess beard you know what I mean by beard right the attachment yeah totally because we we did all we did all that stuff the beard ripping is real fun uh but yeah well remember though you're getting them off of the actual ground like most modern muscles are grown on kind of like these vertical uh you know like substrates hanging down where they kind of lift them up like garlands of muscles attached to these things and they harvest them so it's not like people are going out uh and and like uh you know like ripping them off of rocks and they're not attached with like you know to seaweed or any of this other stuff so I just like uh John Ernstasi have you ever encountered in a in a purchased muscle sack a uh a one of these uh you know mud-filled muscles that you hear about no and I look at ever what about you John you ever seen one no I haven't I used to work at a restaurant where we had muscles on the menu yeah and I never never saw those yeah give me some give me some Mool Frit action mool frit mool freaking yeah you like that stuff you love that stuff right I love it yeah I do yeah well being you know Belgique you know you gotta love that stuff what are they what are the what are the what are the phlegms they don't have what are the Flemish people what are the what do they call muscles I don't know, actually. Man, you hate the Flemish. Man, you hate the Flemish.
+
+[8:50] Yeah, I don't know. I need to I need to brush up. You're right. And you said your dad speaks the language for Christ's sakes. He does.
+
+[8:56] He never taught it to me. But I guess I can learn it on my own. I shouldn't blame him. Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[9:02] So, yeah, I've never seen one. So I wouldn't worry about it. As long as they are sound, like, you know, like they are closed accurately. I've never seen one of those. Now, if you're foraging wild on the Cape, which by the way is where he did uh Bourdain did some of his early cooking, and I have also foraged wild mussels in on the Cape and in Maine and not really come across that problem.
+
+[9:24] But I imagine it would ruin the entire pot it was cooked in. Yeah. That was mean. That was what was freaking me out. If you if you fit, but you would know it.
+
+[9:33] It's not like it's not like you would, it's not like you would cook a mussel. It has some sort of sewage stank mud in it. And then you open up the pot to smell the white wine and the onions and the and the garlic and the and the herbs and all of that. You're like, oh, white wine, garlic, and oh Jesus, sewage. You would notice.
+
+[9:54] You know what I mean? Yeah. It's you know, uh, that's just my my guess is that you know, if even a sousson, as we would say, of uh raw sewage in your in your muscle broth would I think affect the flavor to the extent that you would notice. You know, it's my guess. Yeah.
+
+[10:15] Now, uh interesting story about the cape. Where on the cape were you? Uh well, they had gotten the muscles on uh in Well Fleet, but I was we were in Sandwich. Okay. So uh I've never gathered mussels in Wellfleet.
+
+[10:31] I've gathered clams in Wellfleet, but uh when I was a little kid, we used to stay out near Provincetown, and there's this jetty out near Provincetown that like go goes out and cuts across like that little point there out by Provincetown. Long, long jetty. And um I used to go down there and we would get mussels and also periwinkles, right? And then, and this is in the 70s or 80s, right? And so we would get pots and pots of periwinkles and pots and pots of mussels, and nobody cared like at the time, like there was no one, there was no game, you know, game like fish wardens or any of that stuff kind of pestering us at the time.
+
+[11:09] Not that I remember. We even used to get quahs, you know, which are the big clams. We would get co hogs. For those you walk out in the sand and you plant your you plant your heel, and you can kind of feel them with your heel if you smash your heel into the bottom of the of the of the of the you know the sand, and then you'd pull them out. Big big caw hogs, like you know, uh bigger even than your normal stuffed clam kind of a situation.
+
+[11:32] So we would make them into chowder. And again, back in those days, you know, they probably should have given us grief for not having our proper tags, but no one ever did. Um and so we were gathering muscles and like say periwinkles and the periwinkles there are real small. So we used to we used to kind of boil them up in huge, huge pots and just sit there with safety pins, and you pop the trapdoors off of them and then just like kind of pull them out with safety pin and eat them, and you have to go real fast because they're so small that if you don't go fast enough, you burn more calories eating them than you do like from the actual periwinkle. So, anyway, but we found out later that those weren't necessarily the safest because the hotel that was right next to it was dumping their sewage into the bay at the time.
+
+[12:18] So, you know, there's other things that you can't even taste that might get you. You know what I mean? Yeah, that does that explain a lot about myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:29] Although listen, nowadays I doubt anyone's allowed to uh dump any kind of raw sewage into anything. So you're probably uh you're probably fine. We do we have a question that just came in on the chat. Yeah, question. You were on the uh air.
+
+[12:44] What's up? Or you're not on the air. Matt's gonna read your question on the air, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. David J.
+
+[12:48] Foster. First of all, he says, sounds good. That's not a question, but thank you, David. Uh also says, Yo Stas, a question for your dad. I'm at my dad's in Florida, and his Meyer lemons are coming in nicely.
+
+[12:58] I guess this is a question for her dad. I'm not exactly sure how she's gonna answer. Uh the leaves are looking a little yellow though. Any advice from him to keep these trees healthy, nitrogen, other trace minerals? Okay, I should have read this first.
+
+[13:10] It's a question for Stas's dad. First of all, isn't that wouldn't that be Stas's mom? Isn't she the plantologist? Or is it your your dad is the citrus user, but isn't your mom the plantologist? But my dad deals with the trees, so uh all right.
+
+[13:24] So what so what do you think? Are you authorized to speak for him? No, I don't I can ask him, but I know they don't do well I can ask him. Whoa, wait question for the future. You sounded so you're like, I don't really I'm not gonna ask okay.
+
+[13:40] Like what was that all about? Because they don't really do much to this stuff around the house because it all just sort of grows without issue. They never have without without growing issues, no, and they've never had a a problem. I can ask. I will ask.
+
+[13:56] Never had any sort of blight. You know who we're gonna have on eventually, though, is uh our boy the fruit explorer, and I'm sure he knows everything about leaves getting all effed up. Yeah. David Carp. That's true.
+
+[14:09] Yeah. Or wait, were we gonna have him on the show, or were we gonna have him on our unhappy hour? We're gonna have it on an unhappy with the LA container. I see. All right.
+
+[14:17] And Stas, I'm assuming since you were uh moving out of the city that you did nothing of interest, or you would have said so. Uh yeah, I have done absolutely nothing. Well, uh I have been cooking up a storm. Booker has been cooking up a storm. Booker baked his second cake this week.
+
+[14:34] He did what's called a pinata cake, where I don't know where yeah, I don't know where he came up with this idea. Yep, it's the tallest cake I've ever seen in my life. It was four full-size layers, like not half layers, like full-size layers. He had to make like a giant batch of icing, like the biggest batch of icing that my kitchen aid would handle, and then kind of hollowed out the middle and and put the MMs into it. Well, it worked uh worked quite nicely.
+
+[14:57] He thinks he wants to go do uh cakes now. He thinks that's what he wants to do for a living, be a baker. Yeah. Yeah. And uh Ben to Table sent us in our uh in our little uh in our Ben boxes.
+
+[15:08] Now Nastasia always has fish in her box, is that true? Yep. Yeah, Nastassi always has quite a fishy box. Uh, but I've been getting the grains. Get this out now.
+
+[15:18] Yeah, yeah. I've been getting the the grains, and so he sent us this uh uh main grains, red fife wheat wheat, and red fife is uh is uh kind of a heritage wheat that uh people are growing out here on the east coast and it makes it's a very you know full flavored thing, and so Daxon started cooking with that, so maybe I'll I'll post that uh later. He posted his uh and he made his uh red fife wheat bread, you know, whole complete whole wheat, but he calls it uh you guys watch Bob's burgers ever? No. No.
+
+[15:47] I know you don't. You don't either. None of you guys watch Bob's burgers? Nah. Oh my god.
+
+[15:52] It's great. Anyway, they they they have a uh Thanksgiving episode where they they're making fun of like heritage turkeys. In fact, Heritage Ray Heritage Meats tweeted it out. It's called the River Brook Lake Farms Turkey. And it's get it, River Brook, like three different bodies of water, Riverbrook Lake Farms Turkey, and each turkey has a name, and Bob, the the protector, one of the protagonists, is like waiting for years to be on the list so he can get this magical turkey, and then the uh hilarity ensues.
+
+[16:19] So anyway, so Dax calls it Riverbrook Lake Farms uh bread. So we've been we've been cooking with that. And I uh I cook the cassoulet beans, but get this, Stas. So Dax, all during the week, Dax just goes into the fridge and cooks whatever he wants and doesn't tell me, right? For like lunch or whatever, whatever he wants.
+
+[16:37] So like I had all these sausages, I had all these things. I was like, I'm gonna make a mock casually a mock casually, right? In the rice cooker, and I can get onto rice cooker beans because I have a question on it later. And then when it comes time to do it, he goes in. I go in, and there's nothing there.
+
+[16:52] There's none of the sausages left, none of the anything. And I say to him, I was like, Dax, you have to let me know if you're eating stuff that could be construed as a dinner food that I haven't specifically bought for you. You have to let me know because I don't go and check the fridge every 20 seconds to know what I have. I know what I bought, I put it in there, I cook the dinner, that's all there is. And he's like, No, you have to tell me that you want something for dinner, or I will cook it.
+
+[17:17] Now, who's right? With two teenagers in the house, you should just assume there's nothing in the fridge. Yeah, but I buy all this stuff. I mean, like, Stas, you know what it's like to buy a bunch of stuff and expect it to be there to cook dinner, and you like, you know, you plan for the week and no? Am I wrong here?
+
+[17:35] I don't have anybody that's taking stuff in the fridge, though. You used to. No, not like literally. I mean, what about Count Chocula? You planned on having that count chocolate.
+
+[17:46] Yeah, but that's like sausages are different. That's crazy. Oh, you're like, it's beyond the pale. Like the fact that someone would take sausage out of your fridge is like you can't hear them like smell them cooking and like think, hmm, those might be my sausages in your I'll be gone, I'll be gone for a couple of hours. I'll be gone doing something.
+
+[18:04] I'll be taking you know, I'll be gone for hours, you know, and then like you know, the sausage is there, and then you know, a couple days later, the sausage is not there. I just thought you're not supposed to, or you're not going out as much during quarantine. I can walk, I by the way, am antibody positive. So congratulations. Yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, yeah, feels good.
+
+[18:25] Uh so uh which but thank God early on, I did do the hardcore quarantine because I would have been spreading it like a weasel because I in fact had it right at the beginning. I think Nastasia also had it right at the beginning. She'll find out when she gets her antibody test because Nastasi and I were in a truck on the way to speaking of Maine, on our way to Maine. We came back, the entire city shut down, and then the next day Nastasi and I felt bad, and it was it was the COVID. It was the COVID, yeah, yeah.
+
+[18:57] Yeah, right, Stasp. Mm-hmm. But I hope so. Yeah. I mean, that's the best possible outcome if you're still now feeling good and find out that you have in fact already had it.
+
+[19:08] Yeah, but get this. You know how they want people with antibodies to donate blood? Yeah. Yeah. So here's the issue.
+
+[19:17] So the thing where you sign up to donate blood if you have antibodies is outdated. It was apparently made before they had the accurate antibody tests, because in order to donate blood with antibodies, you need to have come back with a positive COVID test. But when I had COVID, they wouldn't give the COVID test to people who weren't like on the list and we weren't on the list. So even though it's obvious that I had it because my antibody test came back positive, it's not obvious enough. I don't fit into the people whose blood they want because I never got a positive and then a negative result on a COVID test.
+
+[19:53] Isn't that crazy? Mm-hmm. That seems pretty stupid. It does, in fact, seem pretty stupid. Oh, uh, and if we have time later, uh, the other magical thing, uh, I'm on the grain kick now, which Nastasia hates any of these things.
+
+[20:07] I was able to purchase an old grain mill, which I put out on the on Twitter. It is unavailable. Nobody's ever heard of this mill. So I'm gonna be I'm gonna be uh hot rotting this uh this five-inch, five-inch uh stones, it's got five-inch stones, 750 watt motor uh from probably the 70s. I think the one that I have is called Thompson Mill from Mesa, Arizona, and we know that uh Thompson made at least 1,257 of these uh things, unless he pulled a Nastasia and started numbering at a thousand just to make it seem like we had made a lot.
+
+[20:41] That's a classic Stas kind of a move. But I think these things were made to a pattern by people because there's an identical mill that was made in Beaverton, Oregon called the the Little Gem Mill, which is almost identical. So I wonder if there was some sort of pattern that people could buy in the 70s that allowed them to make these things at home and just sell them out of their out of their houses, because all of the addresses that I look at uh where these mills were mailed out of, the one in Beaverton, Oregon, and the one in in Mesa, Arizona, like they're look like houses. They don't look like industrial buildings where people would be making this thing. So I'm still looking for information on these uh mills, and I'll tweet out more pictures of them or maybe Instagram when they're done.
+
+[21:24] Speaking of Instagram, Stas, what was your magical PR move? Why don't you tell him? Uh I sent a Searz all the Jimmy Fallon's house in the Hamptons and right when quarantine happened. And I would watch it every night, except for last night, because I was feeling super depressed because everyone makes fun of me for watching it. And I was like, you know what?
+
+[21:43] I'm not gonna watch it anymore. And this morning I watched it while I had coffee and he used his Sears all. What? Yeah. He also he talked about it, right?
+
+[21:55] Talked about it. Well done. Right, right, right, right, right. So here's here's what happened. Nastasia literally went on Amazon and just sent it to him with no note, no nothing.
+
+[22:10] Well, and you didn't want him to think it was coming from a flak, right? You wanted him to think that he accidentally ordered it and had no idea or forgot that he had ordered it. But then instead he thought that Dave Chang sent it to him. Dave Chang, you know, our our partner. And thank God, because if it was if it had been you and me, it's not like he would have called us and used it on the air.
+
+[22:30] You know what I mean? So anyway, good good for us. And speaking of Sears Alls, more news. So there's a there's a bootleg, there's several bootleg Sears alls. For those of you that don't know, we sell uh you know, we sell this thing called a Searsol, which turns a torch into a handheld broiler.
+
+[22:46] Anyway, there's a bunch of people on Amazon now selling bootleg Sears all, but there's one that looks almost identical to ours. And people have been buying it and then complaining to us, to John, who's our customer service representative, have been complaining to him that they're that the that they've been throwing off quote unquote black metal dandruff, right? And then when we dig deeper into it, we found out because I was like, oh man. And here's a secret. We were looking at a company to manufactur a different company than the one that we use to manufacture the Sears All, and they sent us a proto, and it threw off black metal dandruff.
+
+[23:22] And we're like, nope, we're not gonna use you. And I think those are the people who are selling the bootleg uh Sears all. So if you get a bootleg Sears All that throws off like you know, flakes out of it, don't order the bootleg. Don't get the ganker, get the reel. Yeah, how infuriating is that, Nastasia?
+
+[23:39] Well, we know who it is, so I'm not surprised. It's gotta be them. Look, people, like the reason it costs what it costs is because of the fancy, fancy, fancy metal that not the outside of it, it's the fancy, fancy metal that is uh in the screen on the inside of it. And the other thing that's not so cheap is the is the insulation. So, like there's away, they're obviously they're not using the same stuff that we're using, they're using some sort of bootleg garbage.
+
+[24:09] And so please don't try to get John to replace your Sears all that we didn't even make that you bought from some bootleg patent infringing weasel that I wish would fall off of a cliff, right? Yep. Yeah, no one likes a patent infringer. Well, I don't know. Here, you know what people the thing about patent infringement infringement is this like let's say these guys sell a thousand sears alls and their profit is you know what whatever it is off of that, right?
+
+[24:37] That's all that Booker and Dax can get in damage his back. So, like a patent troll, I'm not gonna name names, but like you know, everybody's favorite patent troll in Seattle. When they are trolling a patent, they'll choose a patent where there's millions of dollars in damage and they have their own team of lawyers, so it doesn't cost them anything extra to go after the people that have quote unquote infringed the patent because you guys know how patent trolling works, right? What I patent trolling, you buy a patent that nobody knows exists, that that the person who's infringing on it doesn't even know they're infringing on, and then so you buy the patent for almost nothing because it's quote unquote worthless, and then you go and you find out that some big company has been infringing on it to the tune of millions of dollars in profit, and then you sue them for that millions of dollars, and then you just skim that off of the top. That's why it's troll, patent troll.
+
+[25:27] Anyway, so but for us, a small company without the money, how the heck are we gonna go after? You know, how are we gonna hire our lawyers who charge you know hundreds and hundreds of dollars an hour? How are we gonna hire them to go after a company to get back like 15 grand? It doesn't work, right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[25:44] It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. Now, if they knowingly infringe, we get triple damages, but even so, this episode is brought to you by Ben to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Today I'm opening my second box from Ben, and it looks like it's a box of tinned fish.
+
+[26:10] I have sardines and butter, which I love, and I just like putting that on great bread. Boo in butter? Join it down. It's tinned sardines in butter? It's tinned in butter.
+
+[26:23] Yeah, yeah. Mussels from Galicia and marinade. What should I do with these, Dave? You can make a risotto and just put them on top. Yeah.
+
+[26:34] Yeah, I'll make a risotto and put those on top. Or I'll just open the tin and have a glass of red wine. Next thing. That's a smarter move right there. Next thing I have a sturgeon.
+
+[26:47] Oh, you like that. Canned sturgeon. Uh in olive oil. So you got the booker box. I got the booker box.
+
+[26:57] Go to benditable.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Eric from Montreal writes in regarding whiskey sours. Hey Dave Nastasi and the gang. I was a bartender for a few years and learned how to make a half dissent half decent whiskey sour with egg whites.
+
+[27:22] One Christmas I made the mistake of offering it to my dad, who now not only loves them, but will also offer one to every family member during our family gatherings. Presumably, though, your dad is offering that you make them, uh, Eric, which is uh, you know, sorry about that. Um takes a long time to make. A good foam needs a good 20 seconds of uh monkey shake. Monkey shake is my old style, crazy shake.
+
+[27:45] Uh it's not really the nicest thing to have to make uh anywhere from four to eight in a row. Now you listen, Eric, you know, you know you can do probably two and a half to three per, so that's two and a half, two and a half, five. You could probably do five at a time if you split them, but still I I get your point. Uh I would probably do it that way if I was only doing them occasionally. Uh anyway, how would you do it?
+
+[28:08] He asked. I have an uh EC whipper and a Vitamix. Also curious to know how you would scale it for an event. Been listening for years. Thanks for all the good tips and the hours of entertainment.
+
+[28:16] Eric from Montreal. P.S. in a previous show, you mentioned that Montreal bagels were fine, but lack salt and were therefore inferior to New York City bagels. Where would I go in New York City to test this claim? What about you?
+
+[28:28] John, you got any good bagel info? You got any good bagel info for me? I'm blanket on the name, but on the corner of Metropolitan and Loramer in Brooklyn, right off the L stop on the Loamer, is really really good bagels. What style of bagel is it though? New York style.
+
+[28:43] Well, what style of New York style? I I don't know. We'll add another word in different styles of New York style. Oh, of course, man. Of course.
+
+[28:51] There's like your first question is do you fall into the camp of like uh let's go back to the 80s, 70s and 80s. Do you fall roughly into the Essa bagel camp, which is the puffier bagel camp, or do you fall more into what would have been back in the day, the H H bagel, which is the bigger hole, kind of denser, less puffy bagel. Both of them much larger than the old Union bagel or then a lot of the old uh bagel shops around that make kind of smaller, smaller bagels. But so you first have to divide yourself into am I Essa style or not Essa style? And if you're Essa style, go to Essa, by the way, go to Essa.
+
+[29:30] If you're but like for instance, even in the neighborhood where Essa is, which is I think First or 2nd Avenue, like around 20th Street somewhere, they moved their location, so I don't know exactly where they are now. Uh, even if you like like in that neighborhood, some people like tall, which is another one near there. I'm not really care about tall. But then, you know, where and where I was from, uh, when I started really caring about New York City bagels when I was at Columbia, you know, in the 90s, because before that I was just eating, you know, Westchester bagels. Not that the Westchester bagels were bad, but you know, uh, so up there it was absolute, kind of had the bagel that everyone was going for.
+
+[30:07] They were apprentices from Essa, and so had Essa style puffy bagels. But you also had uh Columbia bagel, which a lot of people liked, which was uh a denser style, less puffy. So it all depends on what you like. Nastasia, how do you like the bagel at the uh at the Teresi's bagel place at the at the uh it was I can't remember. I had it once.
+
+[30:28] I don't remember. What's the name of that? What's the name of that place again? I don't remember. People love that though, right?
+
+[30:34] People love their bagel and their big giant bagel tubes or like where it's like a big like uh fruit of mare platter, but instead of fruit of mare, it's like fruita bagels with the cream cheese and all that. Didn't people like that stuff? You did, yeah. And then some people in New York like the pseudo-Montreal, which is a Montreal style with salt in it, and so that would be like um like black seed, but I don't have a lot of experience with black seed. And then I've also never been to Myland.
+
+[30:59] Have you ever have you guys ever been there? Yeah, no. How are their bagels? Great. Really great.
+
+[31:05] Wait, John, you said no, you don't like them? I have not been. Oh, all right. Yeah, I haven't been because what am I? Am I gonna go to Brooklyn to buy a bagel?
+
+[31:13] What am I? They're in um Rockefeller Center too. Oh, now they are? What am I gonna go all the way to Rockefeller Center? I got my I gotta I gotta either cross a river or like you know, cross the mystical divide above 42nd Street to uh at the Nomad Hotel.
+
+[31:31] Wait, down in the 20s? Uh huh. All right, okay. I will I will go. Well, when when there is a New York City again, I will I will go try them.
+
+[31:39] Now, back to your question. Um okay, look, it if you want to do a post-foaming, what you're gonna want to do is uh do a um do you know shake it with ice just in shakers probably, and then you can do uh uh you know some sort of a whip shake afterwards in an EC. The Easy is gonna cost you some money though, because you're gonna fit a m uh like the maximum you're gonna get is uh six drinks if you're limiting the drinks to uh in a one quart in a one-quart EC or one liter EC, you're gonna get six five and a half ounce drinks into that. Uh and it will work, but then you're gonna have to pre-chill your EC, and then you're gonna have to you know pre-dilute and chill it, you know, get it all diluted nice and cold, put it into your EC, then foam it, then foam it into the glasses. It might sputter, it might not.
+
+[32:28] It would probably work. It might be good. Remember to put the um the bitters on top to kill the wet dog smell, or allow your egg white to crack your egg whites out uh early in the day and let them air out like in a quart container in the fridge for like six, five, six hours to get rid of the wet dog before you make uh your whiskey sours. So that could work, but I think it might kind of uh cost a lot. The problem with using a vita prep is that um it's adding a lot of friction, so it's getting appreciably warmer.
+
+[32:57] So what you would have to do if you were gonna use a vita prep is throw a couple of ice cubes in with it after you've done your dilution, or even just add the add uh, you know, add the right amount of ice cubes for the dilution you want, blend it until the ice cubes are gone, and then hit it and um hit it with a couple of more ice cubes because the friction in a vita prep is not uh insubstantial. In fact, they you know, the vitapep people say that you it you can heat soup in a vitapep to boiling, and I use it to heat things, uh, and it's it's hundreds, it's like a several hundred watt heater at the end of the day, um being dumped into your thing, so you're constantly heating whenever you're vita prepping. You might be able to get away with a uh putting individual drinks into quart containers and hitting them with uh stick blenders from the side, so using the old foam trick with the stick blender, and the way that works is you tilt your cup at an angle, you put the stick blender in, you have part of the bell on the stick blender in the surface of the liquid and part of it out, and as the blade comes out of the liquid into the air and back in, it's whipping air into your uh into your product, and that's how all the people used to make their carrot foams and whatnot back in the day. But again, I think it's probably gonna be easier just to shake them. Now, if you really want to do it, there's two machines that you might want to look at.
+
+[34:15] One is a uh a couple of years ago, people were making custom uh cocktail shakers with giant cranks on them. So you'd walk up to them, it would hold two giant shakers, you would crank it and it would go and shake the two shakers up and down. I will just say this: I used one in Edinburgh, Scotland about three years ago, and I broke it every time I used it, I over-cranked it and broke it because I was so uh was trying to get the maximum amount of shake in. So I think maybe if you were just gonna sit there and go blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, maybe it would work. But if you're really gonna go to town on it like I did, uh you're gonna break it.
+
+[34:53] And stas, I could break pretty much anything though, right? Oh, yes. Were you with me in Florida when uh they brought out that new Breville? No, I was there, but you were. I don't know why we weren't together.
+
+[35:06] I was with Chris Young fluffing for like uh Guy Fieri and Giotta. Oh, yeah, we were there. I don't know why I wasn't with you. Yeah. That's when I stayed in your hotel room and you got real mad.
+
+[35:16] Because I told you I didn't want you to. And you did anyway. Because I was in a real unsafe situation in my hotel. How's it uh anyway? So, like, anyway, what happened there?
+
+[35:28] Two things that I remember. One is so Chris Young from at the time Modernist uh Modernist Cuisine uh and I were literally the science fluffers for the food networks like pavilion at South Beach. And we're there and we're doing like a question answer kind of like we do here, like dog and pony show, and then the real star would come out and be like Giotta or like you know, Guy Fieri, or like uh the whoever was the most famous cake baking guy at the time. And so this little girl raises her hand to ask a question, and I'm like, yeah. And she's like, I made this necklace for Giata.
+
+[36:09] Can you give it to her? I was like, little girl, Giotta has never met me and will never meet me. She doesn't care whether I'm alive or dead, but I'll leave it on this station in case she sees it. I didn't actually say that to her, I just said yes, and took the little pasta necklace that this little girl made and like draped it over whatever we were using. Felt bad.
+
+[36:28] I felt bad. Find Giotta. What? You didn't go find Giada? Uh it wasn't like that.
+
+[36:34] Uh, I don't know if you know this, but when you're a fluffer, you never meet the talent. You just sit there, you do it. You're like a rasma tatas, and then they pull you off, and then and then the handlers come in in like this phalanx, and then like the talent comes in. You don't get to meet the talent. The fluffer's not allowed in the green room.
+
+[36:54] I'm sure her assistant or someone of your level was la lurking around. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, uh, so right before then, uh, the person, Adele who was repping Breville came in with a blender top and was like, this blender is unbreakable. And I said, Unbreakable, huh?
+
+[37:11] She's like, Yes, it's completely unbreakable. So I picked took it out of her hand, I hurled it onto the cement ground, and then started jump jumping up and down as hard as I could. And then like I was like, okay. I mean, I totally bent it and like a braided a whole edge of it off uh from the concrete. And she's like, Are you out of your freaking mind?
+
+[37:34] And I was like, You said it was I couldn't damage it. You told me that it was impossible for me to damage it. You know what I mean? So don't tell me stuff like that unless you actually want me to take your word for it. How do we get to that?
+
+[37:47] Anyway, uh, so I broke the shaking machine. Wayne Curtis at a Tales of the Cocktail event many years ago, uh, did a panel. I was on the panel, and he bought a paint shaker. So one of those things when you go to like a Lowe's or a Home Depot or a True Value or a Mom and Pop hardware store, and you order a can of paint and they put the color in, and then they whack the lid back on, and then they put it into one of those things that holds one gallon paint cans, and then go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Wayne Curtis loaded one of those things with the full batch of a of Ramos Gin Fizz and the ice, knocked the lid, he bought stainless steel fresh paint cans that were stainless steel and fresh, and then shook them up in his paint shaker, and those were delicious.
+
+[38:33] Those were delicious. So I highly recommend if you're gonna do this a lot, or you know, if you want to get your dad some kind of crazy gift, and your dad has enough space in in his garage wherever he lives, go get you a paint shaker and some brand new stainless steel things, because then you could be making uh whiskey sours by the freaking gallon. But you are required, you are required to say uh or you know, call them like whiskey sour a la Wayne Curtis, anyway. Answered? Answered?
+
+[39:06] What do you think? All right, yeah. You know, yeah. Seems like it's answered. All right.
+
+[39:11] Devin wrote in, hey Nastasia, for the record, I'm 30 years old, male and single, and I buy whatever toys I can slash want. How does that fit into what uh into your thinking? Um, so yeah, he's in the minority, but he's still is he white? Did he say what he's no? You didn't ask people to give you their race.
+
+[39:30] Yeah. Well, okay, so male. So he's definitely majority of that minority of being allowed to buy kitchen. He says single though. Didn't say didn't say single in or out of a relationship.
+
+[39:44] Right. So we don't really know. We don't, we don't really know whether so he could be just 30-year-old male, and like no one can tell me what I need to do about anything. Like I can, I can leave the lid up on the on the on the toilet, I can, you know, I can leave my toothbrush in in the kitchen sink, I can do whatever I want single, or like, you know, I have limits single, you know? Yeah, and this is just like one slice of time.
+
+[40:12] In fact, he he was not single until he strongly asserted his ability to buy whatever tools he wanted, and now he's single. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Let me tell you, people, like, like being single is not worth being able to leave your underwear on the floor. Just not worth it.
+
+[40:30] You know what I mean? Anyway, uh, in my opinion. In my opinion, it's just my opinion. Everyone has allowed their own opinion. So it's two questions.
+
+[40:36] Devin has two questions. One for Nastasia and one for me. Which do you want first? One for you. All right.
+
+[40:44] Is it worth getting the double walled EC whipper rather than the regular? Is it okay to put hot liquids in the regular EC? Yeah, don't buy the double. The double wall EC is an EC thermos. So it's for the very rare person who wants to put something hot or extremely cold into an EC whipper, charge it and keep it hot or cold for a long period of time.
+
+[41:08] So even though it's the size of a one liter, it only holds half a liter. So it costs a lot more and is a lot bigger for the amount of space that uh it takes up. If I want to keep an EC cold, I will throw it into a into a vat of ice. And if I want to keep an Easy hot, I will put it into a Bain Marie on the stove. So for me, uh, I would never get the double wall one unless you very specifically need it.
+
+[41:32] All right. So uh it's not that they're bad. Uh, but uh, and you could put hot or whatever in a regular EC. Nastasi and I, I mentioned this before, did a video with Nachos where I literally don't ever do this, where I blowtorch the side of an EC to turn it into a into a high pressure vessel for cooking uh beans. Beans, but don't do that ever.
+
+[41:54] Don't even say I did it. Don't mention it to anyone. It never happened. Now, Nastasia, for you, and try to give a real answer other than just all right? Okay, this is this is a statement, and then you're gonna do an agree or disagree.
+
+[42:09] All right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Statement. Pasta is just a vehicle for sauce and toppings.
+
+[42:16] Pasta is in pasta inherently has minimal flavor and always takes uh that always is a base for a sauce flavor and never a highlight. Agree or disagree? Disagree. Disagree. All right.
+
+[42:28] Well, you're gonna say you're gonna any more, you're gonna elaborate on why you agree or disagree? Or is this the punishment you get for asking you a question? If that's the case, then you could use any type of pasta as long, like brand, I mean, right? It could also be overcooked, undercooked. Well, that's a texture issue.
+
+[42:50] Because the sauce is the highlight. See, I think I think what Devin's missing here, let's say you remove texture and you're just talking about flavor. Is pasta more than a texture to you? Is it more than a texture in a substrate? Yeah.
+
+[43:10] So what's the flavor of the pasta as opposed to the texture of the pasta? Or how much of the importance of the pasta is texture and its ability to hold on to sauces. So texture both ways. Texture in the mouth in terms of the structure of the paste and texture of the surface uh and that and the interior texture, such it absorbs flavors in different ways. Well, you're saying flavor, so I don't know.
+
+[43:39] So, in other words, some pasta acts like some pasta doesn't absorb any flavor at all. It you know, it it's just it might as well be a slide, and the and the pasta just you know, flip the sauce flies off of it like a slide, none of the sauce sticks to it, it doesn't really absorb anything, it's just kind of there, right? And so then whether or not it has a good interior texture, tooth texture, right? It still doesn't absorb a lot. That's why you get all these freaks who love their bronze dyes so much because it produces that characteristically rough surface, which they say traps more sauce, and presumably there's more micro cracks on the and some people claim that their drying techniques create more or less kind of micro cracks into the pasta that allows sauce to get into the pasta more.
+
+[44:22] I'm saying there's so there's that aspect, and then there is does it turn to mush, right? Did I, you know, do do I use a right? So those are two separate problems, are they not? Yeah. But like I'll I'll eat plain like I'll munch on plain pasta and think it's good.
+
+[44:37] Uh you know, but what about like whole uh other than texture? What about like flavors? For instance, like you know, I used to dump basically anything into my pasta to give it color because it very little flavor adjustment, right? Like you could dump you could dump ketchup into a pasta to make it red and it's still gonna taste pretty much the same, right? But you know, so what about the flavor of the pasta?
+
+[44:59] Like different grains, like whole I'm trying to get you to say something about the flavor of pasta here, Nastasia. Yeah, I mean, I think his question's ridiculous. I think that pasta's great and it's not just a vehicle for sauce, and that's stupid, and I don't even know how to answer it because I completely disagree. And if he doesn't understand it, I can't convince him otherwise. So you're saying you're from a different planet, and so you can't even start a discussion because the discussion has no meaning to you.
+
+[45:24] I don't I'm trying to think of how uh an Italian would explain it because you know, they would never his question is would be ridiculous, also. Um, but I can't think like them right now. Okay. So we'll we'll wait until you can travel back to Italy. You can ask someone, and then you can see it.
+
+[45:42] I mean, what do you think? What do I? He didn't ask me. So what do you think? Um a lot of questions people don't ask me, but you always ask me to answer.
+
+[45:52] That's fair, I guess. I mean, uh, I think look, pasta is always I I think there's a base flavor to pasta that you're just subtracting out. And so it's the it's the flavor of the grain and particular, like when you are boiling pasta, even if there's no sauce, right? And you pull it out, there is that aroma of cooked pasta that is like like instant and knowable from like two blocks away almost when someone's boiling pasta and pulls it out and drains it, the steam comes into your face, that smell of pasta, right? So that is kind of like the background.
+
+[46:27] No, that's like saying that rice doesn't have a flavor. Of course, rice has a flavor, you know what I mean? That's like when you're cooking rice. I mean, even if you're cooking a non-aromatic rice, like a uh uh, you know, so in other words, it doesn't need to be jasmine or something like this. Any rice, when you have the rice kicker going, you're like, oh, that smells like rice, that smells delicious.
+
+[46:45] And so it's not a strong flavor, but it is the overall background to everything that's happening. You could say that about sushi, right? You're like, well, the rice is just there for the fish to be on top of. Right. Whereas real sushi people are like, you know, the rice is like hyper important, right?
+
+[47:01] Um so anyway, so I think it's more of like an argument like that. I think the problem that Devin's having is that Devin is just subtracting in his mind out the entire important base of uh uh uh a flavor, right? And so, you know, just think about uh think about subtracting out of your life the smell of rice cooking, or think of subtracting out of your life the smell of that pot of pasta that you're draining in in your in your you know you just drained and that smell coming up subtract that out of everything and sure if you don't think that's unimportant then like the additional flavors that are added to pasta are relatively unimportant but that base is the base everything else is built on which is why all you need is like a little parmesan and butter and you're good to go you know what I mean um anyway that's my feeling on that you agree with that or not agree with that I do agree wow Nastasi agrees me something is wrong take her take her to the doctor what what a day uh we are we've got we got about 10 minutes all right Don writes in hello Dave the hammer and Matt in the booth but not in pants Matt is wearing pants Don I'm assuming wearing pants I'm wearing running shorts but close enough oh those aren't those aren't pants what kind of how long are running shorts what's a running short is a running short like a a 1970s I'm wearing my shortest pair of running shorts for you but are they like are they like do you see the movie Ping Pong Player no all right well in ping pong play he wears these like these like certified like uh table tennis uh shorts that might as well be like hyper short you know I'm talking about those hyper short running shorts those like super short shorts I have a pair of those and I respect the show enough to not be wearing those right now I'm wearing my longer running shorts but are they like Bermuda style are they like are they like fat man workout shorts? Like how long are they I don't know they don't they almost they they're a few inches above my knees. I don't know.
+
+[49:04] Alright. What do you think, Stas? Does that count for wearing pants? Yeah, I guess so. You're okay with what about I'll admit it's on the edge.
+
+[49:12] It's on the edge? Alright Sean what are your thoughts? Is that okay? Absolutely fine. Matt, you can dress however you want over there.
+
+[49:20] Oh, look at look at John. Look at John. So nice. Anyway. Oh, by the way, and before I read the question, for Nastasia's research, Don is 40 years old and married, and my wife tolerates my kitchen gadgets.
+
+[49:35] There you have it. Okay. So a few weeks ago, Dave talked about cooking beans, grits, and other grains in his Zoji Rushi rice cooker. Not only Zojirushi, my friend, Zojirushi fuzzy neurologic induction. And my mine, it turns out I looked at it the other day.
+
+[49:52] I don't know if I said this on the on the air, is like 17 years old at least at this point. So it's I'm I'm petrified that it's gonna die again. It died once, was dead, would not come back to life. I said this before. I unplugged it, like put it on an altar, walked away for a week, plugged it back in, and it came back to life, and I don't know why.
+
+[50:12] Um and it's still alive, thank goodness. Um a few weeks ago, Dave talked about cooking his Oshi Rushi rice cooker. Uh, could you talk a little bit about what settings you use for various grains? I overcooked a batch of beans on the brown rice setting, and I'm going to try the shorter white rice setting next. Any tips you can provide would be great.
+
+[50:30] Uh, thanks for keeping the show running. It's a bright spot in the week. Don. Alright, now listen. First of all, like Zoji Rusi, uh, for every couple of months, I try to figure out what the different settings on the Zoji Rushi rice cooker actually mean, right?
+
+[50:46] And if you try to ask the Zoji Rushi Corporation, they will not tell you anything about the programs of their rice cooker to let you know what's kind of going on. So, and their rice cooker programming is a lot more complicated than the old, you know, push a button, completely analog that's just using uh, you know, the way that old school rice cooker works is you have a little, a little like a temperature sensor in the bottom, you put the pan on, it pushes the sensor down, it shows it its contact, it turns on the heater, and then it's it brings the water in the pan up to boiling, uh, and then it basically sits there. And remember, the pan can't get appreciably hotter than 100 degrees Celsius or 212 Fahrenheit because there's water there and it's at atmospheric pressure. And so the temperature that it boils at is going to be the temperature that it boils slash steams at until all the water is gone. And then as soon as all of the water is gone, the temperature is going to start rocketing up.
+
+[51:43] Uh, and then as it rockets up, right? The thermostat's like, I'm done, and then shuts off, and then the next level of fanciness up is to then put it into a keep warm function instead of having it in a cook function, right? So that's how so then like the question is what is Zojirushi doing other than that, right? So the Zoji Rushi can do things like one monitor the rate at which things are cooking, right? So like I can dump, I can dump energy into the rice as fast as it's humanly possible and steam off the water as fast as humanly possible, or I could do it slower.
+
+[52:18] So I've always wondered whether that's what's happening in brown rice versus in white rice, let's say. But I did some interesting experiments uh this morning because when you go on Zoji Zojirushi's website, they will not tell you spit. They will not tell you anything about the actual functioning of their rice cooker at all. Uh they just say, they just say this. There are three main categories of rice cookers.
+
+[52:42] This is from Zoji Rushi. And get this, this pisses me off. With each representing a different level of rice deliciousness. So, like the way Zoshi Rushi sells their rice cookers is you can buy the meh ice, ice rice cooker, you can buy the ehh delicious rice cooker, or you can buy the hey hey, delicious rice cooker, right? And by the way, I have the hey hey, delicious one.
+
+[53:06] But they won't tell you why it is that the different programming or how it's different. But I got some interesting information for you. If you go, uh if you there's the two main settings that I've researched uh this morning, and I'm gonna I'll do some more research for you, Don. But the two main settings I looked at today were standard white rice versus um versus quick cook. So when you hit quick cook on white rice in the Zoji Rushi, it takes it about 20-25 minutes, which is about what it would take you on the stove, right?
+
+[53:39] Is that how long it takes you to cook rice, guys? Yes, yeah. So uh that's about how long it takes. So fine. So, what's it doing in the regular one where it takes an hour, a little over an hour to cook?
+
+[53:54] Well, turns out that it doesn't start boiling the rice right away. What happens is is it raises the temperature of the water that the rice is soaking in up to 125 degrees Fahrenheit and holds it there for like half of an hour, and then after that half of an hour or 40 minutes of holding it at 120, uh 125, so just getting the rice to soak at a faster rate than it would if it was soaking on the countertop, much faster, by the way, if you've ever tried to soak beans in hot water or rice in hot water, right? So it's soaking it at that higher temperature, and then only after that turning on the boil and steam, and presumably that gets to them a more evenly cooked better rice grain for the way that they do it. And so that's what's happening in all of the longer rice cycles. There's some amount of elevated temperature pre-soak that the Zoji Rushi is doing.
+
+[54:42] Because if you put it on quick, it boils it right away. Now, the other thing that's happening in brown water, Don, and I think this is brown brown water gross. Brown rice, as opposed to what is happening uh with uh the regular thing, is that brown rice, because of the bran on the outside, uh, and because it takes quote unquote longer to cook, needs more water. So I think what's happening to you, and the reason you're getting overcooked beans is you're just adding too much water to it. Because when I've been doing it in my uh in my rice cooker, like I've had to sometimes add more water to it because the beans come out too kind of al dente.
+
+[55:19] And it also depends on the beans you're using. Uh, I cooked uh these uh whatever you know Rancho Gordo is selling as uh cassoulet beans, and they took a lot longer and took a lot more water than the um their Christmas limas, which were also delicious, all from Banget Table, by the way, uh, which were also delicious, but cooked a lot faster and with a little bit less water. So it depends on how much water you're in. Now, what I would recommend that you do going forward is use quite a bit less water than you're using now because there's nothing wrong with opening your rice cooker. So, first of all, just do it once, right?
+
+[55:56] Add uh, I forget what it is, I think it's a one to four ratio water to beans, something like this, right? So add the one to four, hit the cycle that you want. And I chose brown because I thought it would cook it more gently and burst fewer uh beans, but I still have I now have to measure what the actual brown rice cooking cycle does in my Zoshi Rushi. But I would stick to that uh ratio or even a little bit less, right? And then check it midway through, and or or three quarters of the way through, and see how much water has evaporated, and then add more if you need to, and then come by your perfect recipe, which will be bean to bean based on that.
+
+[56:31] Is that a decent answer, guys, or no? Yep. That seems pretty good. All right, Josh Kuhn wrote in Joshua Kuhn wrote in. Uh hey Dave, Nastasia, and others.
+
+[56:40] That other, all you had to say was Matt and John, dude. All you had to say was Matt and John. This is like in uh in uh the original Gilligan's Island. I know I said it before, but it was you know many years ago. The original Gilligan's Island theme was Gilligan, the skipper to uh the movie star, wait, the Gilligan uh skipper to Millionaire and his wife, the movie star, and then it went, and the rest here on Gilligan's Isle.
+
+[57:06] That's if you look at the first two seasons of Gilligan's Isle, it was it was it was Gilligan, Skipper 2, Millionaire, uh his wife, movie star, and the rest. And all they had to say was Professor and Mary Ann, and that's all they had to say. And but instead they just said and the rest. You just professor and Mary Ann, Matt and John, Joshua. I don't know.
+
+[57:29] Very rude. Rude. Rude. And everyone knows. I mean, not to talk, everyone knows that, like, you know, Mary Ann and Professor, like that's the without the Marianne and professor, what show do you have?
+
+[57:43] What show do you have without Marianne and the professor? We get that all the time about cooking issues. So, like, what's the point if John and Matt aren't on? Right. Right.
+
+[57:53] Gilligan's Island without Marianne and the professor is. Who's gonna make a telephone out of coconuts with no professor? Right? Right. You know?
+
+[58:05] Who wants to deal just with ginger and no Marianne? Not me. We're actually recording right now via a coconut telephone device that I built, which is why this works so well every week. Exactly. Well, then Gilligan's going to take the telephone line and throw it back into the ocean so that they can't get their freaking.
+
+[58:23] Anyway. So Joshua, I will still answer your question. I recently purchased a Wintner 1.6 quart self-cooling. By self-cooling, I think you mean contains its own refrigerator as opposed to the motor overheats and cools itself, right? Ice cream machine with a batch time of about 27 minutes.
+
+[58:40] Ooh, that's a long time, Joshua. It probably isn't as good as the ice and salt machines, but the convenience factor wins out for me. Before I go any further, Joshua, have you tried low temperature pasteurized egg yolks? Sam Mason, I've said this many times, is like uh an ice cream savant. His ice cream is delicious.
+
+[59:06] And he always uses very low temperature. He actually used to sometimes use raw egg yolks, but very low temperature pasteurized, so well below normal creme en glaze temperatures, very low temperature, because he also did not like that smell of egg yolk in his uh egg. So try it and see see what you think first. Uh but I've been adding some gum mixes, nine part Arabic, one part Xanthan, and it seems to make it a little bit smoother. Uh, I need to run more tests to get my favorite base recipe from my ice cream maker.
+
+[59:35] I wouldn't use Arabic Xanthan as a so Arabic Xanthan is gonna be a good emulsifier. Uh, it's very good at emulsifying over a range of temperatures and a range of dilutions. But the Arabic, I don't really think you're having an emulsion loss situation. I think most stabilizers you're going to use like some form of flavor-free guar and or carrageenan for gelling effect or even gel an for gelling effect and like locust bean or something like this, and or locust bean for texture. But they also make ice cream thickeners.
+
+[1:00:12] And also, like those things should inhibit ice crystallization or the formation of large ice crystals. So it's good to have a stabilizer like that when you're trying to freeze over a longer period because you want smaller ice crystals. I will say this though the more stabilizer that you add, the um and maybe Xanthan Arabic. I never used it in ice cream, but maybe that is like one of the famous ice cream ones. I just never use it.
+
+[1:00:34] The more stabilizer you add, the more flavor masking you'll have, and therefore the more flavor you'll need to add. My family can eat lots of ice cream, but not enough to start throwing things together willy-nilly for side by sides. I'm looking for general advice on where to start. I don't want it stretchy, so definitely don't use um guar plus gel an. What percentages are reusable?
+
+[1:00:56] I would just get the ice cream stabilizer that they sell, professional ice cream stabilizer. That stuff's on point. How would heating the ice cream base change the gum's effectiveness? Well, uh Arabic and Xanthan don't need to be heated, but certain things like LBG do. So it all depends on the gums that you're using.
+
+[1:01:14] Now here's your recipe. You're using 500 grams of cream and 250 grams of milk and 150 grams of sugar and three grams of gum mix. That is a lot of cream. That is a lot of cream. Uh, and so I'd be worried at 27 minutes that you're also getting some butter churning effects out of it.
+
+[1:01:29] So if it tastes kind of like over-buttered or cream or over churned, I think a stabilizer is also going to help in that way. Because that's a lot. That's a lot of cream, wouldn't you say, guys? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:43] Joshua was the guy also who uh kills and eats geese. Thank you, Joshua. Every goose that you kill is one that's not pooping on our ground down here in New York. So keep on killing those geese. And also gave us the information on the uh power usage of the Xcaliber.
+
+[1:01:57] And also, this is apropos of right now. Joshua wants to know why the strict time constraint. I've always wondered this, but especially now. Am I the one who's supposed to speak to that? I don't know.
+
+[1:02:11] Because we're because they're well, we have all day long. I've realized, so there's two things that I like to do in my life, which is one, watch Saturday Night Live now, it's Jimmy Fallon, and two, do my workout class, which keeps me sane and mentally whatever, right? But I've decided who cares. So with the radio show, we can go as long as you want. So you're saying we can go through till 11:30 at night.
+
+[1:02:39] You could go. No, we will today I put till 230 p.m. So, you know, my schedule is clear till then. But like, but like, but theoretically now that you really just said F it and somehow, somehow your lack of watching Jimmy Fallon is being blamed on the radio show now. I don't know how, but you're saying because you because you stopped watching Jimmy Fallon due to the radio show, we could theoretically go till 11:30 at night.
+
+[1:03:02] That one's more that one's more for the China call. Like that. I understand that it's not like like family takes priority, but I don't have a family. So those are the two things that I keep for myself. But for the radio show, we can go over as long as you want.
+
+[1:03:18] Uh the only time for the for the workout is is right after. But this is where this is where the lie is, Nastasia. Because it used to be after the radio show, we would always go eat pizza. But Dave, it is quarantine time, and I can't change Taryn's new workout 1 p.m. thing.
+
+[1:03:35] So maybe we should do the radio show at 11 30. That's yeah, but we'll still go over. There'll still be like we've we've got to be. Yeah, but if you're gonna go over by half an hour, then it's 11 30 to 1 to 1. We gotta go.
+
+[1:03:48] We gotta go. Because the other reason, secondary reason, is because the radio station itself has a schedule and there are other shows on it. All right, listen. Listen, listen, listen. All right, on the way out.
+
+[1:03:58] Joshua also wanted us to talk about an Instagram post with uh dry ice in one of those Mocha uh stovetop espresso pots. I guess we'll talk about it next week. Obviously, I have safety issues. We'll talk about it next week. And also Capri Sun uh has done some initial mustard work, uh, but has never actually tasted the verdad Ghent mustard.
+
+[1:04:17] So we'll I guess we'll talk about that next time. And I think we still have some questions that are unanswered. So if we haven't answered your questions, uh reask them and John will ask them uh for us next week. Is that correct? Easy, and we and we did not do a classics in the field because I was told that I already talked enough about pie marches on from uh Boston's uh Strauss last week, and so I don't need to talk about it again, and that's where I prepared to talk about.
+
+[1:04:40] So we'll be back with more classics in the field uh hey ho yeah uh next next week. True or false? True. All right, see you guys next week. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:04:54] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org.
+
+[1:05:08] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:05:30] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Oh Jesus.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Zoom from the Lower East Side. Nastasia Lopez as usual from Stanford, Connecticut. How are you doing, Nastasia? Good.
+
+[0:39] Yeah. I was real nervous because when they booted up the uh the sound, it was like it was playing at like Barry White half speed and sounded kind of like real torqued, uh, whatever it's called, chopped and screwed. Uh, but I feel like we're back to normal, so so we're okay. We got Matt, Matt, what booth are you in? Are you in the Rhode Island booth or in the Brook uh Brook Brooklyn?
+
+[0:58] Brooklyn booth. And that's an exciting development that plays uh weird speed for you guys. Uh don't even want to think about that right now. I definitely don't want to think about it. So we have a special show.
+
+[1:10] We have a bunch of guests uh today. So uh, you know, Nastasia, you've known him for uh a while. Uh I've you know, met him a couple times, but the the guest for today is Adam Leonte. But it Adam Leonte, you there, Adam? I'm here.
+
+[1:27] Uh not just a not just uh uh, you know, well-known chef chef, worked uh your first big job was what, with uh Mark Vetri or Yeah, I was in Vetrie for about 10 years. Yeah. So chef, but then somehow like went into the world of uh first through pasta, right? But then into bread. Um, and then also into milling your own flour via like some sort of like style like work that you did for a couple years in Italy, right?
+
+[1:56] So it's like this kind of long road, but you've become one of the gurus of the mill your own uh flour and bread baking movement. Would you say that's accurate? That is accurate. Yeah. So you wrote a uh yeah, yeah, uh Adam's book, uh the The Flower Lab, no relation to the food lab, by the way, the Flower Lab is uh came out in 2019, and I think no one really expected it, but with the COVID, there's been an explosion in interest in kind of home milling.
+
+[2:27] Uh so Nastasi and I contacted Adam to be on the show, and then it turns out that he had his own idea. So uh here is what Adam Adam wants to do for those of you that are listening. Adam wants to do a show that is a mashup of kind of car talk for bakers, but like 3 a.m. like cable access love line call in kind of a situation. Would they say that's accurate?
+
+[2:52] That is accurate. I get a lot of uh desperate messages early in the morning, and so I thought it was only appropriate for the time. Right. So now we can't really have callers in here uh, you know, now because we're not like you know, we're we just don't have that capability right now. So what we did was is we we're we're doing a test run of Adam's like poker after dark bread baking love line situation uh in cooking issues, and we've gotten people to write in the questions, and then Nastasia has some of her friends, my friends, her friends, who are going to read the people's questions as though they were calling you at 3 a.m.
+
+[3:32] to answer these things, right? Perfect. Alright, alright. So, oh by the way, before we get started, I know that you know, probably our listeners aren't like this, but um Adam's bread, just if you hadn't had it. Adam's bread is extremely delicious.
+
+[3:48] I'm just gonna go ahead and say that it's extremely delicious. And it kind of the the first time I had it, because the Brooklyn uh bread lab, which is where I first tasted your bread, is right near Roberta's uh pizzeria. Uh so we stopped after the radio show a couple years ago and we we got a loaf. And you're I know you're no longer there, but at the time you were, you gave us it tour. I tasted a loaf.
+
+[4:07] And it kind of changed my whole mental attitude of a what uh a whole wheat loaf could be, even kind of what a like a sourdough Levan loaf could be, and kind of like the what freshly milled flour can do for you, because he had this mill in the center of the of the lab. He was making the the flour and then baking the bread, and the bread was, you know, as a kid of the 70s, like whole wheat was kind of this dense, like kind of terrible thing that people ate kind of for health reasons, and things that were considered sourdough were typically rather like they'd come from slack doughs because they had gone overly acidic and the kind of structure had been lost on the inside, and they had a chew and a crust to match that, right? Like the acidic dough would have. And this was none of those things. It was incredibly delicious, like amazing crumb structure, great taste.
+
+[4:59] And I was like, I gotta learn how this guy makes this bread this way. So that's you know, that's why I was interested in reaching out to have you on the show. So that's just a uh He's also making bread at Sophia's constantly. So you can still get it. Nice.
+
+[5:15] All right. So anything you want to say before we uh start this or no? I think that was a great introduction. I mean, you kind of covered it all. Um, so let's go for it.
+
+[5:24] All right, and then after this, I'll pester you with my questions from your book, and we'll talk about my misadventures in flour milling. By the way, those of you who are old like me and tried milling flour in the past with some things like let's say a kitchen aid grain mill, like that's if you have ever used one of those grain mills, maybe that's why you don't like grinding flour, because they are garbage. Yeah. I mean, I like the KitchenAid Corporation, but those things are garbage. Anyway, we'll talk about it later.
+
+[5:51] Unless you're brewing beer, in which case it's fine. Okay, uh, so the first question in is going to be, and it's about sourdough, is gonna be from uh Harry Cuthbertson, and it's gonna be read by Mike Van Dorn, friend of the show, boondoggler's uh fiance and adult diaper expert. Mike, go. Hey Dave, the hammer, Matt in Pants, Adam, and any others that I've missed. I'm a pastor and a chef from Tasmania, Australia, and I'm the stereotype for your show.
+
+[6:19] I'm 36, white, male, married. I buy too much kitchen equipment, but my wife's cool with it, and it's a tax write-off wink. I'll make sourdough at home with local but commercially available baker's flour. It's pretty stock standard flour. Is there any real benefit to milling at home?
+
+[6:39] Is it worth the hassle? The bread I'm currently baking is good, but how much better could it get? Thanks for your show. You guys are the best. Seems like New York is uh coping a massive pummeling from this COVID-19 virus.
+
+[6:55] You guys are in my prayers. Cheers, Harry C. Alright. So, uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe folks from Tasmania really love coffee, and kind of the uh same idea applies from coffee to milling your grains, is a lot of folks are used to having maybe, you know, in their youth something pre-ground for coffee every day. But as soon as you start to get, you know, into the more modern era of espresso and you in your little espresso bar from down the street, you realize when they mill it to order, it kind of makes all the difference.
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+[7:34] So if you're gonna improve your bread and you're already happy with it, if you add in a portion of fresh milk flour, it kind of it definitely has the same effect. Um it just doesn't oxidize, and therefore all the flavor is there for when you put it into your dough. Well, let me see what you think about this, Adam. So it's like having just tested, because I'm sure you don't go out and bake bread anymore with you know flour that you buy at the store, right? But Dax has been right.
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+[8:01] Dax has been baking bread, uh, you know, primarily he's doing the the Jim Leahy No Need bread, right? But he's been baking it with, you know, relatively decent, you know, uh flour, AP heckers, and it's good, right? The texture of it's good. Uh we let it, you know, we retard it in the fridge for a couple, it does a slow rise for like 24 hours, then we retard it in the fridge for a couple of days, so it you know it builds up some flavor. It's good.
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+[8:25] You know what I mean? Um but then when we used um we use first some relatively recent uh stuff milled by somebody else, but when we started milling our own uh warthog, which is the wheat we're using, it's like you're like, oh, all of those flavors that are things that you need to hide that are off flavors when the stuff's been milled and sitting around for a long time with the germ and the brand and it oxidizing. Those are actually things that you crave and love if you use it right after you mill it, right? Wouldn't you say that's true? 100%.
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+[8:58] Couldn't agree more. So I mean, like let's not like bread made from flour, if you make good bread is going to be delicious, but there are these other flavors, and I think this is where like the coffee thing really comes through. There are these other flavors that in general you see as bad things in in kind of old stale commercially milled flour because they are bad at that point. They've been ruined, they've been oxidizing. They've gone rancid, yeah, exactly.
+
+[9:23] Right. But when you have them fresh, they're great. And so I think that's the difference. So I mean, as a recent convert, because I just got a decent grain mill up working for that time. I I I think it's I think it's good.
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+[9:35] Anyway. So I guess we have uh also, yeah. Who knows who's up who's up next? Okay, so long time listener uh of the show, Capri Sun. Uh Capri Sun's question will be read by Jordana Rothman, friend of the show.
+
+[9:49] Uh long time uh she likes to pummel us, so we use Peter Kim as our punching bag, and then Jordana comes in and punches on us pretty much. Why haven't people pushed the tuning and development of home grain mills to the extent that has taken place with current high-end espresso grinders? Does it just not matter in the final product? Loaf of bread, shot of espresso. Well, I mean, the I think the answer is in the word espresso, meaning like express really fast, to have your result, you know, end up in about 30 seconds from an espresso is immediately gratifying.
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+[10:39] Where bread making inherently is a long process. Even even the shortest made our time to make bread is is still at least 45 minutes. So a lot of folks aren't all that patient. I think one of the reasons why bread baking is taken off so much since we've been in quarantine is that there's a lot of time on folks' hands. So um it's not that the uh milling isn't it's not worth it's not that it's not worth it for flavor.
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+[11:10] It's a hundred it's absolutely worth it for flavor. It's just that the time that's needed to then make bread after milling. The milling only takes a few a few seconds or maybe a few minutes if you're gonna make block. Yeah, you're you're not using a home mill if it only takes a few seconds, dude. A few minutes if if you're doing it at home, maybe 10 or 15, you know, not too bad.
+
+[11:33] Um, but certainly not as quick as it is for um just a few ounces of coffee, like an espresso. I'll give another uh uh thing on this as well is that if you go back in time, if you you know are old enough to go back in time to like 2001, 2002, like nobody uh nobody had commercial espresso machines, machines or grinders at home. Nobody. And there were websites devoted to uh, you know, how to try to get the best professional shot out of your Europiccolo, and you know, the best grinders that you could get at home were these kind of uh burr grinders. Kind of um with the advent, and an espresso wasn't that huge a deal, frankly, in the United States either.
+
+[12:28] Like, like you know, uh uh none of the huge stuff had really hit and hit here, like on the West Coast in Seattle, you had you know, Schomer and Vivace, and you had other people who were starting like the rumblings of the kind of espresso revolution here, but it hadn't happened. The what happened is a bunch of rich people started buying commercial espresso equipment at home. And then, you know, people who weren't rich, like myself, started buying commercial espresso stuff used on eBay, and there was already a big market for commercial espresso grinders and commercial espresso machines, like four uh espresso bars. And once big companies realized that there was this next tier of idiots like me who wanted this kind of like semi-pro crab, then that semi-pro crab, which was just dumbed down versions of the commercial stuff became available, like the Ranchillo Rocky grinder, which I still use to this day. So I think the reason, another reason is is that there was this whole tier of things that could be dumbed down to home use.
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+[13:26] And Adam, you were actually talking to these mill people saying that they should hit the pros. If a bunch of pros have it, then eventually it'll trickle down to the home jerks like myself, right? Absolutely. Yeah, uh that was that was really the idea when I started talking to folks from different mill companies was if we can get it into a commercial kitchen and and people start to talk about it at that level, then it can trickle down exactly. Yeah, because because what you don't understand, what most people don't understand as uh as not manufacturers is that the cost to make like a hundred mils, mock mills, is like per mil is extremely high.
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+[14:05] Now, if you were making, you know, 15,000 of them a year, then the price drops considerably. Also, the amount it costs you as a seller to sell each individual one, because your salary is going to stay pretty much the same. The cost to sell each one of these units goes way down, and things can become cheaper, they can become more reasonable. You can you can use different kinds of tooling, different kinds of manufacturing, you can get it much cheaper. So it's very hard to market something inexpensively unless you're making a lot of them, you know.
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+[14:37] Absolutely. Um we have uh friend of the show, uh Deep Voice Master and our favorite uh Grinch stand in for every uh Christmas episode, Phil Bravo, to read a question, and we had this for you, Adam, because uh I know that you are a lover of olive oil and a lover of things Italian. So uh he's going to read uh Ashmeet Jately's question. Hey Dave and the issues gang. I have a question about olive oil.
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+[15:06] Now it's gonna be inflammatory for some people, so prior discretion. I think that olive oil is not that intrinsically superior than most oils in the market. I'm not talking about the health aspects, which honestly I don't, and you don't care about, but the actual taste of it. The extremists evidently enjoy the taste of raw olive oil by itself. Now, I get that that could be nice with like a reduced tomato sauce or something, but just in its raw form, unaided, it's so overpowering and tannic to me.
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+[15:40] As a North Indian, I am obviously not that exposed to it, which might explain my dislike. I much, much prefer ghee, or if anything, mustard oil in my cooking. Now, the question is, is raw olive oil really that great? Am I just an outlier, or is it not? And there are cultural and historical factors at play, or both in some sense.
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+[16:04] Also, I've tried converting myself by daily tasting 10 grams of raw EV or olive oil by itself for one month just in case I might eventually like the taste of it. And the result is that I hated myself for that period. Thank you. And hope you all stay well. And so sorry for this question being this long.
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+[16:29] Well, that's an easy one. Well, you know, obviously flavor is and taste is subjective. However, um, I think sticking with the theme of freshness, I think uh fresh olive oil certainly is something that's not available to everyone. And if you're gonna go about your objective tasting, maybe start with something that was also freshly put on a stone mill, much like the wheats. Um, in Italy, a lot of times it's just in November when they start to press it, and you get this really bright fruity flavor, but you also have to consider just how many varieties of olives there are.
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+[17:09] So perhaps the olive oil that you know you're tasting isn't the variety that's for you. So I would certainly try to exhaust those options before you write it off. Um, I think um a majority of the population of the Mediterranean would agree that the olive oil is maybe not superior, but certainly the olive the oil of choice for the table. And if that's not quite enough to convince you to keep, you know, researching, if you go down a YouTube hole of Turkish oil wrestling, which is all on the western side past Istanbul, you should get into some olive oil after that. So that's that's my answer.
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+[17:55] So my two cents on this one is I'm gonna give you a little bit, I'm gonna give you a little bit in the sense that uh if you're gonna heat the oil, like a lot of its like uh taste properties, and you're right, I don't care about the health properties, the supposed health properties are kind of obliterated by by high heat. And as Adam says, if you don't like the taste of uh the olive oil, then by all means use something else. But um I mean, I just happen to love the taste. And the the way to learn to love olive oil isn't to taste it uh on its own. Um because also frankly, like if you take a spoon, where the olive oil hits you on the tongue and how you inhale air afterwards is gonna radically change.
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+[18:39] Like you could have a sample of oil hit it, you don't get a lot of pepperiness, and then you hit it, but you inhale a different way, or it hits a different part of your throat and mouth, and you'll get an entirely different sensation of that oil. And this brings it back to the episode. The best way to taste olive oil is on bread. And I have to say, olive oil on bread with salt is right up there with butter on bread with salt as two of my favorite things to eat. So I mean, I would I would kind of try it, uh, I would try it uh that you know that way uh as something, but it's definitely uh a condiment, you know.
+
+[19:14] I think there's very few dishes that dishes that require it. Um yeah, finishing oil for sure, but I mean there's certain kind of pastries that kind of require that olive oil to really be themselves, and there's uh, you know, the famous olive oil ice uh gelato, but I get your point. If you don't like it, don't don't don't use it, right, Adam or no? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.
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+[19:37] Um and I think, you know, I think the part of the answer that quit was in the question when he was talking about with a uh reduced tomato. That kind of um just what you were saying, it's a good condiment. You know, if something's very acidic, it's really nice to have something that's sort of fat and voluptuous to counter it. So certainly have it with items. I don't I don't think it's probably the best showing of just walking around drinking it by itself.
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+[20:05] Yeah, also I will say this one last thing, sorry, but like the olive oil, the olive oil kind of uh the evil empire of olive oil hegemony is run by the Italians, right? And the it the Italians in general, for their judging, often favor extremely green, extremely raw-tasting, biting, heavy, phenolic kind of uh oil, not phenolic, uh, you know what I mean, uh like bugging kind of tannic oils. They they really they favor that, right? And so kind of the more throat ripping the the better. And one of the reasons, as Adam pointed to, is because that throat-ripping stuff goes away as olive oil uh sits around.
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+[20:44] So even before an oil becomes rancid and actually becomes destroyed, it will lose some of that fresh green biting uh kind of flavor. And hence it is prized. There are many cultures around the Mediterranean uh who make uh and you know, also in California and also in Australia, who make olive oil that um doesn't fit those criteria, and yet the judging is still based around that. So perhaps you prefer one of the more quote unquote buttery uh olive oils, because there are a lot of olive oils that have a lot of flavor but aren't huge throat rippers. That said, I love a throat-ripping olive oil.
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+[21:22] But that's me. You know what I mean? Uh, what do you think? Any anything more? You think we're good on this one?
+
+[21:27] Yeah, no, um, that's that's definitely true. I remember I spent a little bit of time in Spain when I was living in Italy and would visit Spain, and uh some of those olive oils were much fattier, um, which was really surprising, a little less throat ripping. Um, but then it kind of made sense with what we were eating because the food was actually a little bit more throat ripping on its own end. There was more spice involved, there was a little bit more you know, picante style heat, you know. So uh an olive oil um didn't really need all those characteristics, and you could see that definitely in the food and how they were making their olive oil.
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+[22:06] So yeah, certainly cultural. That's that's that's a good way to look at it. Also, uh Nastasia like must be loving this format because she hasn't said squat. I'm sure how many pairs of shoes have you bought on Zappos while we're gonna be able to do that. I'm just keeping everybody in line that's waiting on you to finish the question so that they can read their questions they can get on with their day.
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+[22:25] Well, let's go to snark on the waiting the question getting on with their day. The job is to answer the questions. I know, it's just like it's it's a bolly job. Anyway, as long as okay. I'm just waiting for you to have the last word on the question, and then I'm like, okay, get ready.
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+[22:38] It's your turn. But tell them when it's their turn. They can hear me say their name. Some people zone out. Okay.
+
+[22:47] Uh now, the next person reading a question. I don't know, I know her, but I don't know her well enough to uh jab her or make fun of her. So I'll just say who it is. Uh uh reading uh that fan off of Instagram's uh pizza question will be uh Rachel Pisgoda. Why is a 60 to 90 second pizza bait different from three plus minutes, etc.?
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+[23:11] Is it because there's less time for moisture to escape the dough or something else? That's the easy one. Um that comes from uh Naples, the city of Naples, which is where uh my grandmother's from. That's a very specific um dough cooking method to a town that has made its own system and hierarchy or of or of pizza. Um really what it does is it leaves a dough that's wet and kind of soupy.
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+[23:44] A lot of people actually really don't care for it when they look at it over, say a New York pizza. Um I used to go to Naples maybe once a year and would bring someone with me that had never been, and they're always so surprised on how quickly it was baked and how unsatisfying it was to them. I think it's really interesting. I love when I'm down there to try it, but um, it's really a preference. Um in those ovens also, just to give it a little bit more than just the flavor or how it's culturally made, um, they're very hot.
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+[24:21] You know, there's somewhere between 650 and 800 degrees Fahrenheit. So one of the things is to get the dough in and out as quick as possible to get another pizza sold. Um, because it is a business and it's also uh an inexpensive food in Naples. Um so it's something to to have for lunch and and not necessarily, and I'm sure I'll get in trouble for this but don't take it too seriously just kind of eat it and go among uh you know about your day afterwards they're usually like um five to ten euro for what would be like 30 dollars here um but you you get a big burst of heat which makes all the CO2 in the dough expand really quickly so you get like the the big outside um corn you know cornuto the little corn uh on the outside the little holes um that comes from high heat and then you just get that soft interior it's really more stylistic than anything you could take those dough and bake them differently you could bake them longer you could get them crispier and it would just taste different and maybe you would like it or maybe you wouldn't and in your book Adam correct I mean correct me if I'm wrong but in your book you give different recipes for different styles of pizza dough and a lot of it has to do not just with the place. So you have a Naple you know Neapolitan you have a Roman one and a Connecticut one which we if we have time we can talk about later but then you talk about how the dough and not just the flour which you talk about a lot as well but that's you know getting in deep for people who aren't going to do their own milling but how the hydration changes depending on the oven that you're using and how the heat is applied.
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+[26:05] And that's not something I think that a lot of people talk about in non-specialist non-pizza specialist books anyway. Yeah um try to get the idea across because if you're gonna bake in your home oven um to achieve something that tastes professional, you're gonna have to kind of deal with it. Um, I provide the recipe so that way you don't have to actually like create your own recipe, but to get an understanding that with a lower temperature or something that's not maybe um also equipped with a heavy stone, which helps keep heat regular and um and uh kind of the same throughout the whole time that you're baking. Um you have to mess with the hydration to kind of mimic your favorite style because the style that you're into or whoever is into to achieve it, you're gonna have to mess with the water because it's gonna be relative to the amount of time that's in your oven. So to have um you know a Neapolitan style pizza in your house, you're gonna have a higher hydration.
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+[27:16] Um it's gonna ferment also a long time to also counteract that douginess that quick bake. So you're not really eating quote unquote raw flour, you're eating something that's been digested by yeast for a long time, so it's easier for it to bake, easier to digest, um, and also it just mimics that that feeling that maybe you had Naples. Um, when you have like a Detroit pizza, that's something that's baked in a pan. So inherently is gonna be slower because the pan's gonna be cold, it's something that you're gonna have to form in the pan and then put in the oven, so you're gonna have to kind of uh change for that effect on the time there. So that's gonna be you know, closer to 30 minutes, really, for something like that to bake, kind of like uh a baked pasta.
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+[28:07] Um, and then the the other things are the water in the dough, is gonna determine how the dough stretches. Uh, more water, generally speaking, makes it easier and more elastic, the dough. So for Connecticut pizza, those are big pizzas, they're not the little um 350 gram dough weight. They're much bigger, they're like 20 something inches. Um, so you need a little bit more water in there too, um, so you can stretch it, uh, which is kind of interesting.
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+[28:39] So they're all have an effect based really on what you're trying to achieve and the pizza that you're into. So it really comes out of style. Um, and pizza is I would say the food item that the people I know are most comfortable with um getting in a fight about. Uh, people love to argue about pizza in my uh experience. So yeah, just so people know, like some of your pizza recipes are like up like like almost 90% hydration, and then some of them are as low as like 56, 60% hydration.
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+[29:13] So he's really he's not just he's really pushing the hydration in different directions based on what you want, right? Like your your pizza romana is looking at like 56 or 60 percent hydration. Yeah, exactly. Because those um those pizzas that you see in the windows um in Rome are are kind of like I mean, pizza and bread are are very much almost the same thing. Um, and those are a little bit more bread-like, a little bit uh they're not as thin, you know, they're not as delicate, they're slightly more hardy.
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+[29:46] Um, and that that effect comes from having the lower hydration in it. This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Here I am. I'll open up my box. Let me see here.
+
+[30:06] It comes with a uh a delicacies France and an essentials. I got fleur to sell now, fleur de cell now. Uh this is from I swear to swear to god, M. Gilles Hervé. And then I got Rancho Gordo's classic cassoulet bean.
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+[30:22] I love uh I love cassoulet. It says a beautiful white runner bean developed by French farmers over generations to be the foundation of the classic cassoulet. Now, I have never made a cassoulet with the official bean before. I better hurry up and cook it though. It's gonna get too hot for Casserle soon.
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+[30:41] Finally, Christmas lima beans, which I don't know anything about. All the meat of a conventional lima with a chestnut flavor, bold enough to handle chilies, curries, or just a drizzle of olive oils. Hmm. I'm interested in that. I've never I've never had this before.
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+[30:57] It does not look like uh the kind of green lime as we have. It is white and it kind of looks like a drawing, like a wood block wood block cut of like wood and grain. It's got a real kind of cool look to it. Alright, I'm looking forward to cooking with it. Go to BendATable.com to start your own monthly subscription.
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+[31:15] Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRM's programming. Alright, next question in is from Aaron Melville and will be read by Jordana. It may be worth mentioning how much the quality of the flour can influence the pasta taste. I didn't fully appreciate this until I moved to Emilio Romagna from the US. The pasta, dried and especially fresh, can be so flavorful and varied here in Emilia Romagna, where I live now.
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+[31:50] Supermarket flour can be very good here in Italy, where I live as well. But there are particularly fresh and excellent flowers from small local Italian, of course, producers that can change the taste of the pasta dramatically. Of course, I'm sure plenty of good producers are in the US that may be worth seeking out, but I wouldn't know because I live here in Italy. What do you have to say to Aaron slash Jordana? Well, um there is a certain amount of romance that goes in with pasta and oftentimes with bread dough starters.
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+[32:29] People like to name their starters, but pasta is also something that the you know provenance of the flour sometimes evokes certain feelings and nostalgia. And the reason I mention it is because the reality is that a lot of Italian brands in Italy, serving in Italy, get their grain or even already pre-milled flour from the US. So that is uh something that you know is oftentimes confusing, but the arable land in the US, especially for grain, is many times larger than like the entire country of Italy, uh, which is pretty incredible when you think about it. If you go all the way down from Utah up to Canada, you know, that's a very large area, mostly growing wheat. So Italy buys a lot of it from the US, they also buy it from Australia and Ukraine.
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+[33:29] So it's not always the effect of it being grown in Italy, but maybe the Italian standard on what it is they stock their shelves with. So the properties that you know these Italian producers are you know looking for is probably a little bit more flavor-driven. So when they make uh a wheat um kind of compilation, so when you buy an all-purpose flour, there's usually seven or more, sometimes eleven different wheats that go into what makes an all purpose, which would be double zero in Italy. And in the US, we might choose our combination for strength and to make it more foolproof to bake at home in Italy. Um, the double zero is oftentimes selected for flavor in addition to the other properties of maybe elasticity or protein.
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+[34:29] Um, so you you know, if you're getting something from a local mill in Emilia Romagna, that's great. Um, in the US, if you're lucky enough to live generally near bigger cities because they have a larger market, um, farms will bring their grains and flours there. But small towns often sometimes have less options. You know, we're lucky in New York to have a lot. Um, and in Italy, when I worked in Italy, we actually used uh all of our flour came from a mill right in town, wasn't just a few miles away from the restaurant.
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+[35:04] Um, I hope that answers the question. By the way, uh you're reminding me at the end of the show. Hopefully, we have time, you know, Matt'll remind us, but Nastasia hates fresh pasta. So I want foy. Foy!
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+[35:17] Anyway, uh Wally from New Orleans has the next question. Uh this one will be read by Mike Van Dorn. Like everyone else, I'm trying to make bread again. But like the last five years of attempts, I still can't get that Leidenheimer thin crust, light crumb that lasts exactly 12 hours before it needs to be used in bread pudding or crumbs. Po-boy loaf, actually pistolettes.
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+[35:42] I've had some nice looking loaves since I piped steam in them from the pressure cooker. It's a great spring. But the crumb is still leaden. I found a bon mi recipe that looks doable, but it calls for bread enhancer. Well, there was is a run on that too.
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+[35:58] What does it do and what can I substitute it for? I found lecithin, citric acid, wheat gluten. Also, I was robbed last week buying a pound of fresh saff instant gold dust. Ah, yeast, as the block that I bought in the Bahamas three years ago seemed a little tired, although it was only open for two. Any other advice other than go visit the family in New Orleans?
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+[36:24] By the way, for those of you that don't know, the Leidenheimer, I believe, and Adam can correct me here, but that's the bakery in New Orleans that I think makes the official po'boy loaves. But it is a New Orleans uh bakery. Powboy, of course, is the sandwich that everyone gets in New Orleans, and people are as jazzed about that bread as the specific, like people are super jazzed about bon me uh loaves. But anyway, Adam, you have anything on this? Yeah, I think this is an interesting thought because it's not really a question um in the realm of health or like flavor, because typically those um those bon me's and and uh those kind of French bread things aren't known for flavor but known for textures.
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+[37:10] It really sounds like this guy's trying to achieve a certain texture. Um I I wouldn't want to speak on behalf of specific bakeries, you know, don't uh on what they're using, but oftentimes um those kind of more industrialized products are you use a bromated um mixture, so they bromate the flour, which is uh sodium bromate, which is illegal um to use in a lot of European nations. But we embrace it here in the US. It's like a dough fixer, it helps things rise and also helps with the coloring in the crust. That would be one uh way to go about it is to use bromated flour for your texture because we're talking about texture here.
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+[37:56] Um the other way is to use some malt. Um there's dry malt, there's a couple versions, but I prefer using the malt that kind of looks like uh honey, almost like a syrup. Um, a little bit of sugar goes a long way in a crust or texture. Um, so I once had it described uh that the crispiness of those Bon Mi breads should almost sound like walking on, you know, like fresh laid snow, that little bit of crunch. So that that comes from having a little bit of sugar inside the dough if you're not using uh a dough enhancer such as uh bromated flour.
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+[38:44] Um, you know, get into the sugar realm a little bit, try that. Um, and then also uh before you bake, you can let a crust start to form on your dough. So make sure it's exposed to air for a certain amount of time before you bake it, and that'll also give a little bit more crispiness, but can make your bread a little more dense. So it's a slippery slope. All right, so I'm reading the ingredients here that are on one of them, and it looks like it's got weak gluten, so that's gonna increase rise, but also gonna take a little more water and make it harder to work with, right?
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+[39:23] For sure. Uh it's got also whey and milk powder, that's gonna make it brown more, right? Yep, exactly. It's got now, as opposed to maltos to sugar, it's got diastatic malts, meaning they're adding enzymes that are also gonna break down some of the starch in the broken starch into sugar and cause the yeast to rise more dramatically. Is that correct?
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+[39:44] Yeah, you'll get a faster rise from that that kind of mole. Uh, and then it also has ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C. What what what is the what is the antioxidant thing doing in there? What's the effect of vitamin C on the bread? So vitamin C and also uh in the presence of uh acidity too, if you actually add different like vinegars to doughs and whatnot, is uh is for strengthening it.
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+[40:10] Um it kind of helps with the overall structure strength of the dough, which will really make it more dense. Um, it doesn't make it more elastic, it just improves the strength. So, i.e. whatever the product you're eating, they're probably using a softer flour. So that way it's an air like a lighter feeling bread.
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+[40:29] Um, so that way it's got like a wonder grip quality, and then they add vitamin C to give it a little bit more strength. Um to achieve the crust. That's so funny because it's counterintuitive, right? Because you think that like over-acidic dose, if it's too much acid, obviously it weakens the gluten and makes the crust not brown, but a little bit of ascorbic acid kind of goes the other direction. It's kind of interesting.
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+[40:57] Yeah, you can use it in puff pastry too. You'll see some people do that. Um that was where I first learned how to use it. Huh, cool. Uh all right.
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+[41:08] Uh now we have from one manic ninja, Phil Bravo. Hi, to all of you out there in the far-flung reaches of Heritage Radio. I just bought a bag of beans called horse gram from my local Indian grocery store. They're tiny beans, and they vary in color from dark brown all the way to light tan, but unfortunately, so are the rocks that are hidden among the beans. Rinsing them in a colander has proven to be futile, as both the beans and the rocks are roughly the size of mung beans.
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+[41:48] I've picked over the dry beans and then soaked them and picked them over again just to be sure. After pressure cooking, the beans are soft but remain intact, and you just you just can't tell when you spooned up a rock until you crunch one between your bowlers. Is there some magic bean-cleaning trick that I can try? Or as I have no horse, should I just throw them out to avoid breaking a tooth during this global pandemic? Love the show and grateful that y'all keep on keeping on during these trying C19 times.
+
+[42:23] Wow. Phil. Adam, before you answer that, I know some of the are that that's the last one of the ones that we're having read by callers. I want to thank uh Phil. I want to thank Mike.
+
+[42:36] I want to thank Rachel. I want to thank Jordana for uh reading those questions for us and doing the tests. Uh, we appreciate it. And Adam, the reason I had them read this one for you is because when you're buying wheat at home, sorting your wheat is another thing you're gonna have to do, wheat or rye. And so I thought maybe you could talk about that as well.
+
+[42:54] Yeah, no, it's a great question. Um what so here's the thing to that is also kind of uh breaking that fourth wall of the romance of baking and cooking, is you know, much like you know, I always talk about it with grandmothers, how people really adore grandmothers, but at one point they weren't grandmothers and probably did some pretty evil things. So don't always trust those sneaky nonas. Um, same thing is with farmers. We have this sort of adornment with all farmers, and as we should.
+
+[43:34] I mean, they do feed us, and it's kind of the most important job one of on the planet. But you know, there's a way to make ends meet, and there's certain farms that aren't really run by an individual and more of a larger company, and uh it all comes down to their care for the product. So, with grain specifically, like wheat, um, I always look at the grain before I buy it and kind of just mull over it. A few things you can learn just from looking at it with just a regular, like say bread-making wheat, whether it's hard or soft or spring or winter, look at if they are all the same size. If they're all the same size, then probably the seed that was used is more or less a seed that wasn't made for flavor but was bred for production.
+
+[44:28] So they're all kind of uniform, which will let you know that they won't have too many interesting flavors going on, kind of just one. But also, if you look past that, you if you see stones in your grain, then that means they're not using a seed cleaner, which kind of just sorts everything out. There is 120, 130-year-old equipment and patents out there on how to separate these things. So you don't have to separate all the rocks at home, except for maybe the errant one here or there. So if your beans are full of stones to the point where you're nervous of ruining your teeth, I would absolutely throw them in the bin and get a better quality bean, a bean that someone loved and someone cared about, and was like, what separate the stones out for you before they get there?
+
+[45:24] So that way when you check out, you know, if there's some stones, there's maybe only just one or two. Because if it's full of stones, um, then the farming practice really didn't take the time to clean it or take care of it, which means other things could be in there, other things that you don't want, or even in the growing process before. Who knows if your beans were just blasted with pesticide, and that would be worse than eating a rock, I imagine. So um, it just kind of means that someone didn't care for the beans, they're probably a inexpensive beans, and the jump in bean quality price isn't all that much. I wouldn't mind paying four dollars a pound as opposed to two if it meant you get to stay out of the dentist.
+
+[46:11] Right, and there's there's different ways that people separate things out commercially, right? So you can separate based on weight, and there are machines that separate based on density, and that's by the way, how you're supposed to get rid of them stones, because the odds that they weigh the exact same that they have a similar density to the bean, relatively low. Um another way is based on size. And so, for instance, uh I had a sack of uh organic warthog wheat from a relatively small producer, and clearly the classifier that they had dumped the wheat into to you know make sure that they weren't sending me whole rats or something like this was um exactly the same size as the cracked corn that they had just classified before it, and so like there was all pieces of cracked corn, not a lot, but like you know, maybe out of a 25-pound bag, maybe I got like 10-15 grams of cracked corn out of it. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:08] So uh, you know, and like errant buckwheat growth. I know rye often has a lot of like non-ry seeds in it, right? Yeah, uh, just because that's just how it works. Um, but yeah, I mean, sometimes these smaller producers, I think, have a tough time. But then some people like Rancho Gordo, you're paying for a lot for their beans, you never find anything kind of untoward in in those beans.
+
+[47:29] But I'll say this. You come across what I typically do with things I don't trust beforehand is I get a full-size sheet pan, full size. Then get like a a quart container, never more, and never fill it more than this, because a full like a full-size sheet pan will take about a full quart container. And then slowly sprinkle, sprinkle the stuff onto a big sheet pan, and then do a where's Waldo on the sheet pan and look around, and you'll get an idea just from one sheet pan's worth, Lana, what is hiding inside of your uh stuff. Now Dave, you know what my job was as a kid?
+
+[48:09] We used to have beans and rice like three times a week. I had to sort through all of the beans and pull out all the rocks, and for years, from like you know, three years old till 18. Hated it. So, how'd you do it? Uh you would they would we would put it in a bowl and then take handfuls and look through each handful and then put each bean that was a bean into the other bean bowl.
+
+[48:35] Oh, I wish I was dead. Yeah, and small little child hands, too. So that's the best. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[48:43] Did your your mom also had you polish the inside of the ammunition, like you know, with your tiny hands? Um, yeah, well, that's rough stuff. I mean, like, you know what? I I like that I like that even you know, over a decade of working together, there's still little dark secrets I can learn about you. It's amazing.
+
+[49:00] I know. Uh yeah. Um, but another thing you should sort people, and I said this on the show before: pistachio nuts and coffee. I do the same thing with green coffee. Like, I don't care how good your supplier is of green coffee, the odds that you don't have some of those stinker beans, like horribly molded or crazy beans.
+
+[49:18] So anything like that that's like not quote unquote natural or like from like some sort of small thing and hasn't gone through some sort of industrial process until I trust that specific batch. I always do at least one sheet tray full of stuff to look at it and see where I'm going. Pistachio nuts, even the high expensive ones, uh, you always get a couple of shrivelers. And like I've done tests on making like pistachio orjah with unsorted pistachios versus sorted pistachios, even of expensive ones. And the one or two bad pistachios can destroy an orjah compared to what it would be like normally.
+
+[49:58] I don't know how how bad is it when you get one or two, like you know how you get those like weird fungusy wheat things every once in a while, those little weird black, you know, black wheat kernels. How much will one of those mess you up? Pretty good. And actually, when you're talking about rye, one of the things to look at with rye is if it's uh turned pink, you'll see these little pink uh rye beans sometimes, and that lets you know there's fungus on the rye. And it's even harder to distinguish because it's the same size, but it's definitely good advice to look through those things.
+
+[50:27] Look through any kind of uh organic um granule, you know, anything. You're gonna write a uh uh a young, a young adult boy novel called The Fungus in the Rye. Uh Ecklus. Of course, being misunderstood in a in a field of wheat for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[50:48] Yeah. Uh all right now we're gonna in the in the bar. Well, Jesus, it's not even one yet. What's wrong with you people? All right, I'm gonna rip through this, Adam.
+
+[50:56] Feel free to chime in on this. Uh we got a question on Instagram from at Foxwoods. Uh, what's Dave's take on negative percolation, how much flavor extraction, safety, etc. Now, this is a post on Instagram. You can look it up, Antonio underscore bartender, who is uh Antonio Filipini.
+
+[51:12] I know him, and what he does is is he takes um he takes dry ice, throws it into a mocha pot. And for those of you, mocha pot are those like aluminum stovetop coffee makers. Uh, and so then you he throws in the dry ice, he throws in the uh the uh vanilla syrup and the and the alcohol and into the percolation basket puts coffee, then the dry ice chills and pressurizes the bottom container, which we normally do on the stove. It pushes the stuff up and over through the coffee and then makes an espresso martini, which he then pours into a glass. Apparently, also the glass has dry ice.
+
+[51:46] Uh look, if it tastes good, I don't think it's gonna blow up because those things are inherently not sealed and there's an overpressure safety. It makes me a little bit nervous because anytime you're putting freezing stuff in, uh freezing water can block all the safeties and cause there to be problems. So it makes me a little bit nervous, but there are multiple safeties, so it only makes me as long as gas is coming out of it. Uh uh if gas wasn't coming out of it, I would be excessively worried. But if as long as it's currently venting, I don't think it's gonna explode, so I think it's okay, but I never think it's an okay idea to serve dry ice to uh people.
+
+[52:17] Uh, you got any uh espresso martini ideas, guys? Okay. Steven DeSenta writes in from Chicago regarding Topo Chico Stelser. I'm a big fan of Topo Chico, both for cocktail applications and for general drinking. It seems to be more strongly carbonated and retained bubbles longer than other similar products, even long after the bottle is open, and definitely outperforms the water I carbonate with my own CO2 rig.
+
+[52:39] What's the best way to achieve this at home if it's even possible? So has it anything to do with the glass bottle packaging? Well, the glass bottle, by the way, is a lot better for long-term storage than anything else. Once you're going to store something, it better be in glass because the uh the plastic just leaks CO2. Um, any advice on how to choose something similar at home will be much appreciated, Steven for Chicago.
+
+[53:00] So the deal with Topochico is first of all, if you want that high level of carbonation, you need to get rid of all of the gas that's in the water before you do it. So, you know, in general, what we do is we do multiple carbonations, like four or five carbonation runs if you really care about it, and that'll blast out all of the gas. Commercially, what they do is they suck a vacuum on the water to suck all of the oxygen and nitrogen, everything out of it, and then replace it all with CO2, and then they use a much higher pressure. So you need very highly filtered water so it has no nucleation sites. You need then very clean glassware so that it's not nucleating.
+
+[53:33] You need to get all of the gas out beforehand and you need to car uh uh pressurize to a higher level. Stas good enough? Yep. All right. Uh Elvin Young wrote in about co you got anything on that, Adam or no?
+
+[53:44] I think what you're gonna say. No, no, it's good. All right, Dave, don't you want to continue with bread stuff since you have four minutes? Or you want to go more bread stuff? I'm ripping through the non-screen.
+
+[53:52] Oh, I thought you wanted to talk to me about stuff from his book. I do, but I'm gonna do that at the very end. Hold on a sec. Elvin Young wrote in about cocktails. I'll get you next week, Elvin, when we have more time for cocktails.
+
+[54:01] And uh uh Elisio wrote in about Instagram on Classics in the Field. I appreciate your comments. We'll do that next week when we do classics in the field again, because today's classic in the field is uh the flower lab, which you should go buy. Although, god dang it, Adam, you can't get that thing on Amazon. Anything bread related, you can't get on Amazon right now.
+
+[54:20] I didn't know. Buy it from uh it's everything's you have to buy the ePUB copy. Did you know that apparently your book is great on Kindle? In quotes, great on Kindle, and that if I buy your book on Kindle for I don't know, like 16 bucks, they'll give me 11 dollars in credit to buy some other ratty Kindle book. Did you know that?
+
+[54:38] I didn't. I mean, that sounds like a great deal. Yeah, now it is a great deal. Now you know, and knowing in this case is all the battle. Now I'm gonna pepper you with some bread questions, like Nastasia uh told me to.
+
+[54:47] Okay, listen. Your sourdough slash uh, how do you pronounce Levan anyway? Levan, how do you say it? Levane, Levan, Le Who? Uh Levan, that's what I always say.
+
+[54:56] Levan, Levan? Uh John, uh, Mr. Frenchman, how do you pronounce it? Levan. Ah, you all right.
+
+[55:03] So your recipe for that is rather professional in the sense that you gotta feed the sucker every 12 hours, like if you're gonna use it. You're like, yeah, you could keep it in the fridge for like a week, but then the day before you're gonna use it, you better start feeding it every 12 hours, or you're a jerk. Is there a way to make a home friendly like sourdough or lavan that doesn't need a full 24 hours to come back up, but that only requires that you bake once a week? Yes. Um, you can take a like a um a Levan from the fridge and mix it directly in and make bread.
+
+[55:40] It's just that your dough is gonna take a really long time to ferment because everything is in a slower state. Um, but you could go right from the fridge into a dough. Um, and instead of say six hours of total fermentation, it'll end up being 10 or 12 on its own. Um, but that'll cut out the 12 hours or 24 hours of bringing your Levant back. Uh the bread won't be as of high quality.
+
+[56:10] That's why I really try to um tell anyone that's baking at home. If you're looking to just have bread because you like bread and you and it's like part of your diet, um, don't be afraid of yeast, especially if you have a mill and you're making flour, because you'll still get a lot of flavor. You can still use yeast, you can ferment it overnight or two days, or you can really control the schedule. So don't be afraid of just buying some commercial yeast. But in order to really have a Levan um work properly, you're gonna have to bring it back.
+
+[56:46] Yeah. Uh what's the difference in quality, by the way? Like what's when you say slightly lower quality, like what what is the effect going to be flavor-wise? Quality. That's an interesting word, but uh when you use a wild yeast, you get many different strand strands of bacteria working all together.
+
+[57:04] So you get uh layered um flavor. Whereas if you use a commercial yeast, you're only really buying one or two different kinds of bacteria strands, and you're only gonna get that flavor profile. Um so you just get more flavor from a wild yeast. And also from uh a starter that you've let come back up to room temperature and feed twice before you use it. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[57:31] Because then you're um getting rid of all the dead yeast cells, um, which are not as pleasant to digest. Um you're replenishing it with a new food source, and so then you're you're and you're adding in living organisms as opposed to partially living, some dead um into the bread. You just reminded me of the DMX quote. It's hard to digest with the size of the hole in your chest. Man.
+
+[57:56] Oh it. So listen, uh you mentioned it, I think only once or twice, but other internet sources go off on the heat generated from the mill and trying to keep the flour below 110. Isn't that Fahrenheit? Don't you think that's kind of a garbage number, 110? I mean, it's not like you're gonna wipe out the enzymes as soon as it goes over 110, because the milling doesn't take that long anyway.
+
+[58:18] Yeah, no, um, that problem is more for commercial milling, or if you were using a conical burr grinder that wasn't cooled. Um, and it's really like I'm not a scientist. This was just from when I spent time at the uh bread lab in Seattle, and just the information from Washington State University that was given to me is that the optimal amount of enzymatic activity and everything was below, you know, 114 degrees, um, give or take. Those folks are badasses, huh? Yeah, really badass for sure.
+
+[58:56] The WSU uh bread lab people. All right. Another thing, you do something which is, I think in the book, atypical in terms of uh how you do your sifting, right? So kind of like the way you see most people sifting, and the way I set up my sifting rig is is that I have a 40 mesh, a 50 mesh, and a 60 mesh screen, and then I put them through successively, right? And then I have like coarse, fine, finer, and flour, right?
+
+[59:23] Yeah. You put everything through a 70, which for most people, by the way, 70, what that means, people is 70 lines per inch, right? So uh, and then and then depending on uh how thin your wires are, there will be the opening space, isn't necessarily that that's what's messed up about using mesh sizes, is they don't necessarily say what the open space, what the whole size is, which is actually more important for what we're doing than how many wires per inch there are, but whatever. So like uh 70 is extremely fine, like finer than any one of those, like uh like finer than the than the the mill people make. They they do I think uh a 50 and a 60 or a 40.
+
+[1:00:03] Yeah, 50. 50 is pretty typical. Yeah. So and then you have and you also most people talk about extraction flour, so they'll say I use 85% flour, meaning 85% of the what I grind ends up in the flour, and 15% ends up as kind of the either I use for dusting or for whatever, right? The brand and stuff.
+
+[1:00:23] Uh whereas you remove everything appears that you remove everything that won't go through a 70 mesh and then add that in as a proportion of included brand and other things. How come you go that way? And what do you think the difference between the two methods uh or the advantages and disadvantages of the two methods? You know, I really thought um that the I you know I think if the book was gonna be successful, um, when I was working on fresh milled products, there weren't any, there wasn't any literature for me to learn. I had to really learn from um working with bakers.
+
+[1:00:57] So um the problem with brand is that it cuts your gluten structure as if it's a razor blade. Um so if you separate inherently with stone milling, there's always gonna be an amount of brand present, no matter how fine you go. So that's a good thing. There's a lot of flavor in brand, there's a lot of um nutrients. Um so by taking out the larger flakes of brand in the beginning, you now have a control of building the structure of the dough.
+
+[1:01:30] And with a lot of these, you know, higher hydration, uh, more artisanal loaves, there's a lot of folding going on after quite a bit of strength has been built. So to incorporate the brand later, you're going to get all of the health benefits, the flavor benefits, but you'll also have the structure. So by completely separating it, you can choose um in what realm of a product that you want to produce. Um that's important more and more. Like probably bread is the easiest to do, honestly.
+
+[1:02:04] You can make a bread without any sifting at all. Um, but if you want to make a really nice puff pastry, um, you're trying to capture all the uh gas from the butter melting at a high temperature, um, and all those milk solids going up. So or a piece of bran cutting a hole in your dough is not going to help that. So you're gonna need to extract, but you can then add the bran back in later or add it to the butter itself. Um, and it just gives you uh a tool on how to get closer to 100% use of the grain that you're buying.
+
+[1:02:38] But do you see a big like once you've removed it? So like a 70 is gonna get rid of almost anything, right? But then do you see there to be a big difference between, for instance, the stuff that is in between a 40 and a 50 versus the stuff that's in between a 50 and a 60 versus the stuff that's excluded by a 40? Is there and there's like do those does the size of those fractions, which is a huge difference for a user to feel in their fingers. Are all of those fractions equally, as you say, small knife cutting, or the finer they are, the less of an effect they have.
+
+[1:03:12] There's um there's a quite a bit of scientific information on that subject. Um, where is it even down the milling process? Is it better for dough structure at any inclusion to be stone milled or burr-ground? Um, because a stone mill kind of crushes it and you know, kind of like I said, permanently bonds the brand to a lot of the germ and starch, or where a burr grinder actually slices, keeping the the grain sliced almost evenly, um, you can have a better form of separation, which also is why people do roller mills for large production, is because it's really easy to separate the brand. Um, but incrementally, as it gets smaller, uh or sorry, the the finer, if you're going in between say very fine and very coarse, um it would be better to go very coarse to get the brand off in a larger piece to completely fully exclude it out.
+
+[1:04:21] Um, but between say 50, 60, 40, um it's not a whole world of difference for hands-on um bread making or dough making, as far as that effect of shortening the gluten strands. Cool. Now, uh one more. Uh the home mills, like the $300 style home mill, whether you're gonna get a mock mill or whether you're gonna get a um uh a coma or one of these other things. And uh, like I said, you are not a fan of, and neither have I been a fan of any of the kind of metal burr uh grain mills that are out there um are those that style that 300 in change dollar style of mill are they gonna get you the same kind of results if as long as you're willing to spend the time that you could get out of the kind of your bakery level mill yeah um I was using that's very recent that they've achieved that um in 2012 I was using a eight-inch stone um industrial mill and to get that quality really wasn't until the last uh three or four years with the mock mill which has like a one or two inch stone um the material is the same as synthetic stone um and the distance between the runner stone and the bedstone the stone that moves and the stone that stays um is now so easy to dial in that I prefer the small home mill and I use it for all the baking at the restaurant now because it just takes up less space and the bread making process is so long anyway that you can schedule milling you know to work with your with you know how you're operating um so the size of the mill isn't all that important until you really scale up and you just need a lot more flour.
+
+[1:06:18] Now uh all right so everyone should go on caviar and order you can order Adam's um flour and his starter and you can order bread and you can order pasta and you can order all that stuff if you live in New York City. So do that. Support a restaurant. That's open. Thank you.
+
+[1:06:35] Yes, you're welcome. Uh appreciate having you on. Stas, you want to get this caviar again is where you're going? Yeah, you're going to order from Sophia's S O F I A apostrophe S, right, Adam? Yep.
+
+[1:06:44] On uh Go Caviar. And you want to give him your social or people can ping back on you, Adam, and let them know about your uh bread talk uh show ideas. Social Security is what he's talking about. Yeah, yeah. 057.
+
+[1:06:59] Um it's uh Adam Leonti. That's that's it. Just my name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
+
+[1:07:06] Adam, thanks a lot. Thanks for being on the show, and thanks again to our readers for reading the questions. See you next week. Cooking is cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:07:22] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:07:39] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:08:00] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issue.
+
+[0:28] This is Dave Harlem, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the lower east side of Manhattan with John coming to you from Murray Hill. And Nastasia coming to you from Stanford, Connecticut. And Matt coming to you from the booth in Brooklyn, but God knows where in Brooklyn, because it ain't at Roberta's. How you guys doing? Good.
+
+[0:47] Doing great. Yeah. Doing good. So uh Stas, how are you like in your uh how you like in your Stanford only life now? It's fine.
+
+[0:55] Yeah? You don't have your air conditioner installed in your house yet? I don't have an air conditioner, no. Did you have central air in your New York apartment? Uh I had air con I had like the they were part of the apartment, yeah.
+
+[1:10] You know, I have an air conditioner in Connecticut you could borrow if you really need one. I don't I don't like air conditioners, but thank you. Wait, you come from Los Angeles and you don't like air conditioners? We never use the air conditioner in LA either. Oh my god.
+
+[1:23] Are you one of those like like why? I don't know. Power? Um what do you mean power? Like the power over your body to be uncomfortable, like No, like electricity, um you know, money spent on electricity.
+
+[1:41] But like. Okay. Huh. But you you didn't say you were worried about the money. You said you don't like air conditioning.
+
+[1:51] Yeah, well, I learned not to like it. I've never, like, we've never used it. I've never used it in New York. Like, I've been in cars with you in the summertime, and you definitely use air conditioners when you're No, I don't. What?
+
+[2:04] I put the windows down. How do you forget that? It's like one of your biggest pet peeves. Let me tell you something about air conditioning. He's blocked out.
+
+[2:15] Like, like, there are whole sections of this country that are completely unlivable without air conditioning. For instance, Arizona. Like, you wonder why you wonder why so many people got shot in the old west. It's because they didn't have air conditioning. Have I talked about this on the air?
+
+[2:31] Here's what here's what happened. You're in the old west, it's 118 or 120 degrees. It's just hot as anything. There is there, you can't spare the water to like just do ethaporative cooling on yourself because water's in freaking short supply. You have like terrible coffee, you have whiskey, and you have 118 degree heat and you have dust, right?
+
+[2:53] You're sitting there, someone comes into your saloon, and they give you guff. The only thing you have the energy to do is to pick up a gun and shoot them in the face. That's it. That's why that's why there are so many gunfights back then because like what else are you gonna do? You're not gonna go outside and have a fist fight too hot.
+
+[3:10] You ever guess you're wearing all that crap? All that leather, all the leather and the big felt hat, which you need for protection against the freaking cows and the freaking, like you know, Russian thistle tumbleweed garbages and freaking Seguaro cactuses or cacti or whatever they're called. So you're wearing all of this freaking gear, this giant protective hat that you need, otherwise you're gonna like light on fire because there ain't no sunscreen. Was it still that hot though, with the ozone layer being different back then? Oh, it was hot, dude.
+
+[3:42] First of all, like let's say it was one degree colder. Let's say it was 120 instead of 121. Like 120 degrees in Phoenix is I don't care what people say about dry heat. It's a dry heat. It's a try heat, it's a dry heat.
+
+[3:59] I love it. You step inside of an oven. You're like, don't worry, it's an oven, it's a dry heat. You know what I mean? It's like it's like 120 is just not tenable.
+
+[4:11] And I'm this is my theory is this is why so many people got shot in the old west. Just it's just you have no energy to do anything else. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, what would you mean you'd probably shoot people right out here in the east?
+
+[4:23] But it is true that wait, Gabe. How was you were in Connecticut in your house? Oh no, wait. Where where were you? No, Miley and Wiley.
+
+[4:32] So uh, you know, the family tested positive for the corona antibodies, and Jen's sisters have been odd uh Jen's sisters have been quarantining. Oh, what? Did you call yourself? Because that's what you always do to me during events. You like ring during events, you're like, it's no, is it clear?
+
+[4:49] This person is anyway. So uh for the like uh Matt, you can't cut that out now. Now that we've addressed it, you can't like normally Matt would have the ability to cut out. Oh no, okay. Yeah.
+
+[4:59] No, we've kind of been a warts and all operation for the past few months. Or as I like to call it all warts. It's like uh there's the Captain Crunch cereal that's all crunch berries. It goes on the cover, they go, oops! All berries.
+
+[5:12] Really, they did it on purpose. Not a bad thing. It wasn't a mistake, though. Oops! Anyway.
+
+[5:17] Oops. So we're positive. Dax was not positive. I said this last week. He was one point shy of becoming positive on his antibody titer.
+
+[5:28] And so his phrase, as I said, was I got a 64 on a pass failed test. So anyway, so he but then he got a slob test to show that he's not currently active. And so we've been quarantined for forever, and Jen's sisters have been quarantined together for forever. And so we brought the two of us together as like separately quarantined and tested groups. And so it was nice.
+
+[5:51] I didn't post anything from it because I didn't want to show non-distanced uh irresponsible media posting, but it was like super nice to be able to see like human beings again in a semi-normal uh environment. And I'm sure people would want to know like what you and Wiley cooked together since you're both, you know, clickbait for this type of thing. They ordered out. Click we did. Yeah, we did.
+
+[6:17] That'd be awesome. We ordered out. Yeah. Yeah. What do you imagine that we would order out?
+
+[6:23] If we were gonna order something out, what would it be? Hot oil pizza. What? What's hot oil pizza? I don't know, but I could you what is hot oil pizza?
+
+[6:33] I'm trying to figure it out. I'm gonna develop this recipe now. What is it? Hot oil that you love on pizza is a phone. Oh, sauce.
+
+[6:40] Instead of sauce, well, I mean, hey, hey, hey, hey, it's Doz. I you just came up with a brilliant idea. You know how? Because you know that like uh it's already exists. What do you mean?
+
+[6:51] I'm hot oil pizza is a thing here. It's called hot oil pizza. Yeah, I lived in Connecticut for many, many years. I've never heard of it. Who sells hot oil pizza?
+
+[6:58] Oh, in Stanford. Stanford is the Stanford, for those of you that don't know, Stanford, Connecticut is like the first kind of big town as you leave New York going up the coast city, uh going up the coast. I guess Rye, but come on, Stanford is bigger, a lot bigger than Rye. And it's the first one in Connecticut because it's a lot bigger than Greenwich. And so uh it is the ugliest skyline of any city I have ever seen in my life.
+
+[7:26] It has the ugliest architecture. Hartford? No, Stanford. Hartford is Stanley Burns. No, but don't you think Hartford is bad?
+
+[7:32] Oh, Hartford is terrible. No, Bridgeport is great. Bridgeport has blight. What? But all those old factory buildings are fantastic buildings.
+
+[7:41] Like the buildings themselves are awesome. It like it's been destroyed by years of neglect and punishment. Um and kind of you know, lack of investment and all sorts of problems, like, you know, like destroyed neighborhoods by putting highways through it and stuff. But the the actual bones of Bridgeport, the buildings themselves are not horrible. Stanford is where like it's it's like you know how when you become a tattoo artist, like you find a really good friend to let to to let you do the first tattoo because it's gonna suck.
+
+[8:10] This is like where every architect goes and is like, you know, they just graduated from using like Duplo blocks. They went from like Legos to Duplos because the bigger, they can make bigger things with duplos, and then they're like, okay, now you can build a freestanding structure in Stanford. And that's how ugly the buildings are in Stanford. Stanford is the city that brought you such amazing things as hey, it's the building we built upside down so that no floor gets light. Or, hey, listen.
+
+[8:37] You know what I'm talking about, Matt, right? I do know. I every time on the drive, I'm just like, what why did they do that? Why do they do that? Or they have a building where they're like, listen, we'll give you 15% off the glass if the glass is so wavy and pillowed that this thing looks like the entire building is is pressurized by air from a distance because the glass is so crappy.
+
+[8:59] You know what I mean? You know, like that. I think it's that Elizabeth Arden building that has the black kind of mirrored glass, it's just done so poorly that you you wish you could just take a wrecking ball to all those hideously ugly buildings. They have the most conspicuous, crappy parking lot right next to the highway. I mean, like, there's nothing good about the architecture of Stanford, and I'm saying this not as a professional architecture critic, but just as someone who has to drive by quite a lot.
+
+[9:22] Now, where Nastasia lives in Stanford, quite nice. They should make a similar agreement with the graduates of the Wrecking Ball Academy, and they could have them do their first practice wrecking ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Yeah, my dream would be to combine the smell, not of Elizabeth.
+
+[9:38] I know Elizabeth is a city where people enjoy it in New Jersey, but the smell of the New Jersey Turnpike as you travel next to the Ko Gen and next to the um uh oil like refinery spots in Elizabeth, New Jersey. I want to combine that smell with the 80s, 90s, early 2000s urban architecture of Stanford, right by I-95. If you could combine that into one thing, you'd get everyone's kind of conception of suburban nightmare. You know what I mean? Okay, what did you and Miley cook?
+
+[10:12] Yeah, I forgot that's what we're talking about. Yeah. Um, again, Nastasia's house in Stanford, quite nice, quite nice. Nastasia, like, I I like if you stuck a lighthouse beacon on top of Nastasia's uh lighthouse, she would be the William Defoe character from the lighthouse. Like, like this billy just pull your beans.
+
+[10:35] Like that? She'd be like just sitting there doing that over and over again. Which is weird because you wouldn't picture Nastasia living in a lighthouse because she hates things that are haunted, and I would guess that nine out of ten lighthouses are haunted. Well, I got over the haunting of this place, and I was like, you know what? F it.
+
+[10:52] Yeah. You need to move out. I'm gonna be here for a while. Nastasi and I weren't like well, yeah. And now since you're gonna be there for the rest of the life, you'll haunt it.
+
+[10:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, she has to murder the actual owners first so that she can then they'll haunt it first, and then when she dies, she can haunt it. But Nastasia and I and a group of other people were looking into this lighthouse in Fairfield, which is another place in Connecticut on the coast, and there's this jump. I love what you did.
+
+[11:15] What do you mean? What'd I do? We were gonna buy it, and then you were like, huh. It says that the that the fog horn goes off every, I think it was like nine minutes or something, and you were like, I wonder if I could tolerate that. So then in the lab, you you set a fog horn alarm to go off every nine minutes, and we were sitting in there, and we were like, no, no, no, we shouldn't buy this.
+
+[11:41] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was that was a mistake, because at my parents' place in Newport, when it's foggy, they if that happens, and like you just you don't hear it, you see something if it's on top of your head, I think it's different. Oh yeah, it's like wearing a fog horn helmet. So, what happened is they have all these lighthouses that are going up the coast, and they used to need lighthouse keepers. So this particular one actually they say is haunted because there was a lighthouse keeper, I forget when maybe Nastasia members, early 1900s, and uh there was the lightkeeper and the assistant lighthouse keeper, and there's this long jetty, and so the lighthouse keeper had to go back to land during this storm for something.
+
+[12:21] The light, the the dinghy that that he was on founders, and he's in the water, and he's like, Yeah, yo. Uh well, we'll say it was Nastasi. Yo, Nastasia, help me out. And Stasi's like, nah, I think I want to be lighthouse keeper. And that's it.
+
+[12:36] And the guy drowned. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so then the guy who drowned apparently haunted the Fairfield Lighthouse. Anyway, the Fairfield Lighthouse is amazing.
+
+[12:45] So imagine like it's a pile of rocks and a house built on a foundation of a pile of rocks with a full 360 view, and you're like half a mile. You're in the water, you're half a mile down a jetty in the water. I mean, just amazing, but then it would have cost us a lot of money to fix it up and use it as like a multi-family like vacation place. And then, yeah, we looked it up. So they they mechanized all these lighthouses.
+
+[13:10] So the light going off, that's not a problem. That's cool, right? It's just that every time, every time there's inclement weather, there's an automated fog horn like in your house. You're like, oh my god, thank God that's a me uh. You know what I mean?
+
+[13:28] And it's it's not often enough that you can tune it out. You know how like when your neighbor's like you're like, okay, fine, I get it. You lock into the beat, but then the song changes and you get thrown out of the beat and you have to get re-locked in. Well, the interval of a fog horn is exactly designed to not have you get into your chills, chill zone. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[13:48] Yeah, you need to hot rod the fog horn so it goes off on a more repetitive, like frequent basis. Yeah. So that would be like the unz. Yeah. Me yo, meep, meep, meep, meep, me yo.
+
+[13:59] And you'd be like, all right, I'm like, you know. Chef John Paul is in the chat questioning whether this is actually a cooking show. Uh, yeah. Wiley and you made anything, Dave? Okay, so I'll say this.
+
+[14:11] So uh Dax brought, so here's what we brought. I brought, uh it was generously uh sent to us uh a side of Ora King salmon. So Oh, did they pay you to talk about this? No. Oh.
+
+[14:23] You said what did you eat? You asked me what I ate. I asked you what you cooked. Wait, but because it was cured and sliced and not cooked. Did you did you make it?
+
+[14:36] Wiley, I gave it to Wiley. I described what I wanted to have happen. I don't like to do things in other people's freaking kitchens unless they specifically ask me to. Wait, cook what did you eat, and now you're saying I can't talk about it because you like what? Anyway, Oricing salmon.
+
+[14:50] They gave us a side of that, and um, and Booker, of course, wanted that. So Wiley did the old school cure that we like learned from the Gohan Society back in the day, which is like way overly complicated. Like, whenever I do the salmon, it's just like a little bit of sugar, salt, and then I like put the towel, like I take the skin off, obviously, and then I put I take off the you know the the blood lines and the the dark brown fat part. But then um I just wet a towel with a little bit of like water and and vinegar and put it over the fish and let it sit for a while before I cook it. Wiley did the full-on Gohan society where first it's a little sugar, then you wait, then it's a little salt, then you wait.
+
+[15:33] Then it's like the sport towel. By the way, sport towels are a thing. I don't think anyone like no one can afford sport towels, but like every sushi person that we uh dealt with back when we were doing the Gohan Society uh stuff at the FCI, and they were all about the sport towel, this incredibly expensive disposable towel that they would use for like all of the fish work. Amazing stuff. Anyway, so uh sport towel with a little bit of uh vinegar with a little bit of uh uh soy and a tiny tiny bit of sugar over the top and like let it let it cure out, and then of course because I asked him, I was like, yo, Wiley, you got your Yanagi in Connecticut, or he's like, I have a Yanagi in Connecticut, because of course Wiley doesn't have just one Yanagi, and so then they slice that up for uh for Booker, and then he made uh what else did we have?
+
+[16:16] Oh, I made some steaks. I bought a bunch of steaks and I did a pre-cook on them. So I uh because I'm lazy and stupid, I like I don't advocate this, although I kind of do, is that if the vac pack looks good that it comes in from the store, I'll literally just do my low temp uh for insurance on the vac pack. So uh, you know, Wegmans was selling a like four you know choice ribeyes for like like all in a big blister pack, you know. Like you know how pills come in a blister pack.
+
+[16:46] Imagine steaks in a giant blister pack. You know what I'm talking about, Nastasia? It's like four steaks like on a grid. So I was like, to hell with it. So I like I folded the uh like I took when you're cooking low temp, one mistake that a lot of people make, right, is to let the meat like sit together so that water can't flow in between the individual pieces of meat, and this increases so if you've therefore doubled the thickness of your steak, you've increased the amount of cooking time by a factor of four, right?
+
+[17:18] So you really want to make sure that water can get around all sides. So, what I always do when I'm spacing stuff out is uh I use a uh half lexan, a tall half lexan for most of my cooking, unless I'm doing a lot. It's a good size for circulators, it's a good size for um you know the amount of wattage that a uh uh immersion circulator can put out, it's a good amount of water, and it could cook a decent amount of food. Anyway, so uh what I have is I have quarter sheet cooling racks, and the quarter sheet cooling racks have little feet on them. Can you picture that?
+
+[17:48] Can you guys picture what I'm talking about? A cooling rack with the four little wire feet? Yeah. So what I do is is I put those things back to back. So I put the feet against each other, and what that makes is like uh like a sandwich that's I don't know, maybe three eighths of an inch um big, where water can get in between, and I put that in between all the pieces of meat so that there's always that little bit of water flowing in between them so that they cook quickly, anyway.
+
+[18:16] So, and then I put a cooling rack on the bottom so that water can get underneath it, and I put a cooling rack on top to keep everything sinking down. So, for this, I did my cooking rack sandwich, and then I folded the blister pack around it because there was just enough room in the blister pack to get it around without like hurting the steak. So I was able to cook the entire giant blister pack as one set of steaks. I did 55 for an hour, 55 Celsius for an hour, and then I dropped it to 52 for four or five hours, pulled it, uh, let it sit for uh a couple minutes, and then iced that sucker down and then brought it up, and then Wiley just hit it real hard on the grill uh outside. So that was our delicious salmon in that on the on the Sunday night.
+
+[18:59] And on the Saturday, Wiley was uh Wiley's been telling me he did some work for Breble, the uh the Breville people, and uh he got paid in equipment. This is an interesting thing you can do, uh, chef people out there is if you do work for some of these companies, like if you want their equipment, often they can give you more equipment than they can give you money if they pay you to do things, and so he did something where at least part of his remuneration was in equipment, and they gave him their pizza oven. And the pizza oven, he made a whole bunch of pizza uh in it. And I have to say, that pizza oven makes delicious pizza. It's like it uses 110, right?
+
+[19:38] It uses 110 um power, uh, regular, you know, regular plug. And but it actually has a fairly high refresh rate. In other words, you can cook like pizza after pizza in it, and it it gets like a sub-two-minute bake if you want it. It goes very, very high. The temperature goes very, very high.
+
+[19:55] And it doesn't make a lot of smoke and it doesn't throw off a lot of heat. And the way they do that is they only allow you to cook a 12-inch uh pizza and it's on a stone. It has three elements, and so you independently control the deck and the dome temperatures, right? And what happens is as you open it, it opens, it looks like it's gonna open like a toaster oven. But when it opens, the the stone actually lowers and comes forward.
+
+[20:17] You load the pizza on, and then when you close it, it crams the pizza up close to the dome again. So the actual area that it's heating is very, very small and very well insulated, and that's how they're able to get a good refresh rate and a very high temperature in a very small space. But I was shocked, he pumped like maybe 10, 11 pizzas, 12 pizzas out of that thing, kept it going, not a lot of smoke, not a lot of heat. I was quite impressed. But you know, it unlike uh those the outdoor the it's a thousand bucks, first of all.
+
+[20:47] It's kind of big. Imagine it's like slightly bigger than a microwave. So, like, you know, I can never use it here because I don't have a plate. He keeps it in the basement when he's not using it, but like I don't have a basement. But uh, if what you want to do is make indoor pizza, that sucker, that sucker makes indoor pizza, but you have to understand the limitations of it, which is you can't really cook anything else in it.
+
+[21:06] Like you can't cook something high, like a steak or anything like that, like you can in the outdoor, what's it called? UNI, UNA, whatever. I don't have one because I don't have an outdoor space now, but the $500 outdoor gas pizza oven. But for indoor electrical 110 stuff, I was quite impressed actually. You know what sucked?
+
+[21:21] They're they're peel. The bread peel on that thing is the worst, and they spent a lot of money on it too because it's stainless steel, right? There's two things you want a bread peel, there's several things you want a bread peel to be, but among them you want them to be relatively light and you want them to be stiff. This is both heavy and it goes whoop when you pick it up, it does not feel sturdy at all, and yet it is extremely heavy. And Wiley tells me it also sticks like a mother.
+
+[21:47] So the peel needs some work, but the oven itself, uh, I quite liked it. So that's what we had. Oh, and Dax made uh some uh more I ground some uh warthog wheat for him, and he made some 100% um wart hog, which is a red wheat uh bread, which was good. And also on Saturday on the way up to Connecticut, I stopped by uh the green market and bought another 50 pound sack of grain. This time I bought the the one that Adam uh was one of the ones Adam Leonti was talking about last week, which is Redeemer, which is one of his favorite wheats, it had been out of stock, and I got a 50-pound sack of Redeemer, and Jen was like, Dave, what the hell?
+
+[22:26] Our entire house is just sacks of wheat, just wheat everywhere. So now I just joke with her, my yo Jen, I gotta go out and get another 50 pound sack of wheat. Think about this. If you live in New York City and you don't have a basement or any closets that are aren't already being used, hey guys, people who live in New York, is there any extra space in your closet? Absolutely not.
+
+[22:47] No. There's no extra space for 50 pounds of wheat. Top to bottom. I sort of like shove the door closed whenever I'm done with the yeah. And so the other problem with wheat is did I already talk about this last week when we were talking about it?
+
+[23:00] When when I had uh at one point I bought like a 50-pound sack of rye from uh a supplier in Brooklyn. This is like, you know, 20 years ago. Uh 18, 20 years, 20 years ago. And I didn't repackage the rye. Now nowadays, prepper websites tell you all about what you're supposed to do is get like uh plastic buckets with like gamma seals or some sort of really heavy airtight seal.
+
+[23:24] Then you're supposed to stick your grain into mylar in like like mylar bags that are oxygen sealed. Then you seal, you throw in oxygen absorbers. And what the oxygen absorbers are fundamentally is iron filings. Those iron filings rust, and as they rust, they absorb the oxygen from the environment. And so it's an oxygen-free environment.
+
+[23:43] And in an oxygen-free environment, um bugs can't grow. If you don't do that and you just keep like a sack of rye around your house, and you're not like full of insects, they grow weevils. And then weevils are all in your rye, weevils are all over weevils everywhere. Nobody wants weevils everywhere. Um, uh, first of all, it's hard to get oxygen absorbers right now uh because everyone's prepped themselves into oblivion.
+
+[24:09] But second of all, I don't have room for giant buckets of stuff, so instead I just vac bag down all the stuff, like vact it hard, uh hoping. Now I know that oxygen will make it through the bag and bugs can eventually grow again, but I'm hoping to kill all of anything that is like right there right now, and then I'm cycling them through the freezer. Uh I'm cycling my bags through the freezer two pounds, uh, sorry, four and a half pounds at a time. So within a month or so, I should have been able to freeze down all of my currently 120 pounds of grain that I have chilling in my house. But anyway, whatever.
+
+[24:43] I have bread going right now. Anyway. All right. Oh, wait. Uh Chef John Paul asks in the chat, do you like a pizza steel above a pizza stone?
+
+[24:53] Okay, that's a good question. Um I don't have that much experience with a uh pizza steel since I'd already bought all of my gear by the time the modernist crew, uh Chris Young started talking about using steels uh as a thing. So I don't have I don't have that much experience with one. Nastasia and I bought one at the Elder Street Lab, not for that, but for a different reason. And we promptly accidentally melted three quart containers onto it.
+
+[25:25] And so then I was never able to adequately like I never took the time to adequately burn off all of the plastic that was on our steel. And then when we moved, uh I think it got pitched, right, Stas? Didn't that thing get pitched? Yeah, got pitched when we left. And so I've never had adequate uh experience with uh the steel.
+
+[25:43] I get the theory of it. My problem with all of these things is their refresh rate, right? So that's why, like when I was talking about the um the Breble pizza oven, the first thing I asked Wiley was, okay, so your first pizza cooks in 90 seconds. How long does your second pizza take? How long does your third pizza take?
+
+[26:00] How long does your fifth pizza take? Any sort of storage medium for your oven, whether this be a pizza stone or a steel, is limited by how fast you can dump the energy into it. Because they're all energy storage devices. Now, the nice thing about a steel, um, the bigger the mass, obviously, the better, is that um it loads up faster and can dump energy faster than a stone can. Um, so I get the theory of it.
+
+[26:27] I just don't have enough experience with it. You know what I mean. This episode is brought to you by Benditable, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. So I recently received my France box, and uh one of the first things that popped out were uh rancho gordo beans that they called cassoulet beans. Now, everybody pretty much loves casserole, stas.
+
+[26:53] You like casole? Yeah. Yeah. Everybody loves it. But here in quarantine time, uh, I don't really have uh a bunch of duck lying around.
+
+[27:01] You can't really have a real casole without duck. So I just kind of made something similar, i.e. something meaty and beanie. So what I did uh with them was uh first, I just in my house all the time, I have a whole bunch of reduced tomatoes, so I just buy the canned tomato, uh the canned tomatoes. You I blend them with a whole onion and with a bunch of garlic, and then I put it on an induction and reduce it by half so that I have this kind of like it's not tomato paste, it's like this kind of like thick, kind of reduced tomato that I have lying around.
+
+[27:33] Now don't add those to the beans right away, because you never want to cook beans with acid. Instead, I took more garlic, onion, sauteed it down, uh, threw the beans into my rice cooker with that, chicken stock, and I hit that with some of the uh some of the burlap and barrel flouring hiss up thyme that came into in with it. And also, sorry, Stas, I added a little rosemary. I know you hate that, I apologize. And then I threw in, because I don't have standard kind of casolet meat ingredients, I threw in two ham hocks and a bunch of sausage that I had, you know, different varieties, some hot, some not.
+
+[28:07] I hacked them up into pieces, threw them in, and just let that whole thing cook up. Once it was cooked out, and like, you know, and that the sauce was reduced down to just where I wanted it, I threw in the uh tomato reduction, folded that in, and then bread crumbed it and just glazed the top of it to get the bread comes out and served it on out. So it's not casolé by any stretch, but dang, was it delicious? Go to Benjatable.com to start your monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Ben to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN, which stands for Heritage Radio Networks programming.
+
+[28:45] By the way, uh, I don't want to forget this one. Ashley Bronstein writes in, by the way, why is it that people's names are spelled Stein but pronounced Stein? Where does that come from? I'm assuming it's Bronstein and not Bronstein. Germany is where it's not.
+
+[29:02] No, but in Germany, EIN is Stein. Yes. Oh, okay. Sorry, you're saying the opposite. But in America, I would bet that like well over half of people whose names are spelled Stein are pronounced Stein.
+
+[29:18] No? Like Victor Frankenstein from uh Nastasia's favorite movie, Young Young Frankenstein. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know. Interesting.
+
+[29:28] How did that happen? Where'd that come from? I don't know. None of us are etymologists, so you're asking. But is that is that in America only or is that worldwide?
+
+[29:38] I don't know, Dave. God, what the heck use of you people? You lived in Italy. I think we are. You lived in you lived in Belgium, didn't you?
+
+[29:45] What the hell? I lived in France. They're not really pronouncing those things that way. Alright, alright. Yeah.
+
+[29:52] Anyway, uh, Ashley uh writes in uh my boyfriend Jacob is a big fan of your podcast. His birthday is on Saturday, May 30th. Would you mind giving him a shout out? Shout out to Jacob! Happy birthday.
+
+[29:59] How's that? That was great. What did you say, Stasi? You cried? Did you say I cried?
+
+[30:15] No, I didn't. I said no. Oh. I thought you said I cried. This reminds me, my uh Gerard, my the George.
+
+[30:25] So my stepfather Gerard, so I'm while I'm not by blood, like you know, you know, grew up with him, you know, as you know, part of my life, he his Italian family in Boston is the source of like many, many uh hilarious stories in my life. So one of them was his his sister had gone to a uh a mafia, like a funeral of a of a daughter. So his sister was friends with uh a mafia Don's daughter because they just happened to you know go to the same school, and they're friends, and so she died at a very young age, and so this this goon that I'm about to describe to you reminds me of Nastasia. So, like, like the the Gerard and the sister, my stepfather Gerard and this and his sister Auntie Linda go up to this goon at the funeral, and they're like, Oh my god, this is terrible. They're so sad because this you know, this young woman is has died, and the goon goes, Yeah, real sad.
+
+[31:20] Oh, and that reminds me of Nastasia, and then there was another story where at the same funeral, I believe, someone on on the uh on the outside, another goon was handing out Kleenexes to peep tissues as people walked in, and they go, It's gonna be real sad. You're gonna cry, and hand it out the tissues to people. How crazy is that? Wow. People forcing you to cry.
+
+[31:44] It's gonna be real sad. You're gonna cry. Nobody's gonna cry at my funeral. Oh no, I feel like I'm not gonna be able to do it. No, I'm not saying that's sad about it.
+
+[31:59] Don't cry for you, Argentina. You're supposed to be immortal. That's all you wanted. Not much to ask for. Did you see that that Jimmy Fallon has been cancelled?
+
+[32:10] What do you mean canceled? Cancelled like he did something terrible or canceled like the show canceled. Listen, apparently in 2000, he did Blackface on SNL and it's just coming out now. Okay. Is this one of those things like Chris Cuomo where you're gonna have to dial this way back?
+
+[32:26] No. No. I mean, he has not been canceled, but he is uh it's like there's a hashtag, I don't know what it is right now. I have no, I I don't know. I have I have no data on this.
+
+[32:39] I it is true that he did blackface on SNL in the year 2000. Oh my god, bringing up a good old Conan thing, huh? I didn't know you were Conan fan. Dave, we've sang this song together. Uh yeah, it's true.
+
+[32:53] Do it, John. Do you even know what we're talking about? Are you too young to know about this? No. Matt, do you know this?
+
+[32:59] Uh my it's like in the year 2000. Yes, yes. Yeah, and well, and what was it, the trumpet player who used to sing it? There was this big trumpet guy, and he used this super high falsetto. Yeah, I can't even.
+
+[33:13] My voice is a little grow scratchy today, or I would do the, butt like in my head, I can hear it. And then they they would just like read off these things like in the year 2000, and then they would say something dumb, like some dumb thing, because it was before Conan. Anyway, interesting, you bring up Conan, and interesting, you bring up horribly racist things because I saw uh the document. I saw I saw the documentary on the Dana Carve show, which was kind of like an amazing documentary of the show that Dana Carvey did after he left Saturday Live in 1997, and like the the team on it is like here's who was here's who that was the team. It was Smeiggle, who's back, you know, does TV fun house for uh Saturday Live, right?
+
+[33:58] So Smeigle was, I guess, a showrunner. Dana Carvey was, you know, the the headline guy, and they were gonna have it be it was a sketch comedy show, so Nastasi would have enjoyed it. The the writers were Louis C.K. and he also acted on it, right? Uh Steven Colbert and Steve Corell, who I did not know were like friends who came up at Second City together, and uh who else?
+
+[34:22] Some other famous, so there's some other famous people that were on it, but it was kind of this who's who of people that became incredibly kind of famous and well known. But the sketches, they had so much like weird like racism in them. It's crazy. It's it's go back to see what was considered funny by people that we still consider to be funny people, even in the late 90s, was just crazy, crazy bad. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:47] Mm-hmm. Anyway, in the year 2000. Alright. Uh from a user in the Zoom demo chat room. That's that's very personal.
+
+[34:57] A user. Many users. Yes, many, many questions about it. Okay. Uh Dave and Nastasia mentioned that refurbished spinzalls might be available soon.
+
+[35:09] Any updates on this? I have decided to not sell refurbished spinzalls. It's just too much of a heartache. And the amount of money that you would save by buying the refurbished spinzalls. There's first of all, there's not that many of them.
+
+[35:22] And then, like, I am just loath to sell them to someone who I don't have direct daily contact with. I will tell you this though. Uh, for those of you that don't know, uh, one thing that has come of this kind of uh corona thing is that we've started. John has started doing um what's it called? Uh what's the word of them?
+
+[35:40] FaceTime. Yeah, face FaceTime uh meetings live. So we do now video troubleshooting if you're having a technical issue with your spinzall. So it is a really good time from a customer service standpoint to buy one. And I'll also say this.
+
+[35:54] John, for those of you that don't know the history of John, John is a professional uh, you know, one of the things he does is professional line cook. So he knows what your problems are, people. He can help you out. Um, so anyway, we decided to not do it. Just too much of it.
+
+[36:09] Imagine, Stas, if I if we then had to provide customer service on top of something that was fundamentally a break-even situation, it would be it would be a nightmare, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Although people are probably excited to get these Zoom things, they may just rake their spinzall to get that.
+
+[36:27] Now, you see what I mean, Stas? This is how much you hate human beings. This is how much you hate people. This is how much I know about human beings. God.
+
+[36:36] God. Yes. I mean, I know if I didn't have a weekly meeting with you guys, I'd be breaking mine. You are an outlier, Matt. You you are not of the masses.
+
+[36:48] Jeez, Louise. Oh my god. All right. Uh from Elvin Young. This is a question that we haven't gotten to in a while.
+
+[36:54] I frequently use the cocktail calculus chapter of the book as a reference for sugar acid and ABV balancing. That is alcohol by volume balancing. I wonder why it is that Americans use alcohol by volume, whereas other countries use alcohol. Some other countries use alcohol by weight. I wonder why.
+
+[37:09] I wonder how that happened. Anyway, but I'm curious if there's anything I need to consider for drinks, uh, like a stir drinks with clarified juice and cordials, or B lower AB ABV drinks. I'm curious if these drinks tend to go above the typical acid percentage range for stirred stir drinks. Wait, so the what's the question here, John? Lower ABV drinks, do they have more acid than higher ABV drinks?
+
+[37:31] I think so. Yeah. I'm curious if it makes sense to build a drink with the same overall volume, sugar, and acid proportions, but just adjusting down the ABV by swapping out part of the base spirit with a fortified wine. I'm experimenting with different configurations, but not seeing particular patterns. All right, listen.
+
+[37:47] Elvin, I'm gonna tell you this. Uh, and I've said this on the air, but I'm gonna say it again. Biglycerin. And no, I don't mean mono and diglycerides, which for some reason the freaking Faron Adria Texturas group decided to call like their freaking mono and di glyceride flakes like glyce, and some people call it glycerin. It is not.
+
+[38:11] Listen, I'm gonna say this because I had a Twitter uh uh thing with someone, mono and glycerol, glycerol, which is what we generally refer to as glycerin, specifically vet vegetable glycerin, is a slightly sweet, extremely thick liquid. Okay, glycerin. The glycerol molecule is the backbone of, it's the it's the polar backbone of all uh fats and fatty acids. Okay, so a fat is a triglyceride, so that is three fatty acids on a glycerol backbone. So if you look at pictures of molecules of fat, it's like three fingers coming off of a backbone, and that's what a fat is.
+
+[38:55] You knock one of those fatty acid chains off and you have a diglyceride. Now the the fatty acid part is non-polar, right? So that that is like what is attracted to non-water, right? And then the glycerol part, that part that doesn't have the fatty acid, that part is uh polar, and so that gives it emulsification. Knock off a second one and you have a monoglyceride.
+
+[39:18] So the glit the flakes, the the solid things are mono and diglycerides, kind of a shotgun mix of those things, usually somewhat titrated to be able to use uh properly for thickening oils or for uh emulsifying, etc. etc. Uh the glycerin, the liquid, is what you want to buy, buy vegetable glycerin. They do taste differently, supplier to supplier, but just test them, uh, and you're only using them in very small percentages. You're talking like five grams to the liter or you know, maximum, maximum 10 grams to the liter, but you really wouldn't want to add that much, more like five grams to the liter.
+
+[39:52] And what happens is is that as you lower the alcohol percentage of uh a drink, uh a cocktail, right? You are as soon as the alcohol drops below a certain threshold, and it's usually somewhere like 12-13% alcohol. As soon as you go below that threshold, you'll notice that in order to get the flavor and the body and the mouthfeel where you want it, you start increasing the sugar, and therefore, as you increase the sugar, you start increasing the acid and become sweeter and sweeter. And when you get down to like where soda is at 0% uh alcohol, um, you're at like 10% sugar, which is a lot. It's quite sweet.
+
+[40:33] Um, so what you can do when you're lowering uh the alcohol level is to introduce some glycerin, and that for whatever reason, and it's poorly understood, uh, as far as I can tell, and I've read the scientific literature, I haven't read it in over a year, but the last time I read it, it was poorly understood exactly how it works. But uh as you add some glycerin, when you reduce alcohol all the way down to zero, you um bring back the like the kind of taste perception that the sugar and the acid had. In other words, if you would just take, if you just take something that's at five or six percent sugar, zero percent alcohol, and you taste it, it just tastes like I watered down your lemonade, right? It just tastes like the hell you do it. You water down my lemonade, jerk, cheapskate, right?
+
+[41:24] You add uh some glycerin to it, and now it gets back closer to the mouthfeel, viscosity, and balance that a cocktail at those ratios would have. So I would look into doing that as a test. In general, as you lower alcohol, you'll need to increase those other flavors, and I think it's probably for a fairly poorly understood reason. Uh, is that answer that question, uh guys, or no? Yep.
+
+[41:51] Yeah, I think so. Uh okay, see if they have it, okay. Um via email, does the spinz all clarify butter perfectly? I don't know, John, you gonna try that for me? Yeah.
+
+[42:04] Alright, try it for me, report back. I can do that. Listen, when you clarify butter, I mean, first of all, like, what are we talking about clarified perfectly? Like, what are we doing here? Like, are you talking like one or two sticks?
+
+[42:18] I don't know how well the butter solids are going to stick to the inside of the rotor because there's just not that much of it, right? Like in general, butter solids will compact into a puck, but I don't know how much of them you'd need to effectively stick to the side of the rotor. If you were gonna, and there's also the foam that comes up to the top. If you melt the stuff, let the foam settle out, right? The water and the any residual water in the melted butter and the butter fat solids will go to the inside of the rotor and you will be able to get the clarified butter out of the top.
+
+[42:48] And if you were doing like, oh, I don't know, like liters of it, then yeah, I'm sure it could clarify it very, very quickly, right? It'd be a pain in the patoot to clean that me as you dishwash it. But like imagine that butter film all over the inside of your spinz all nostassi. What do you think about that? But um, yeah, but um it would work, right?
+
+[43:10] But then the question I have is that last 500 milliliters, uh, which is 500 milliliters is roughly a pound of butter, right? That last pound of butter, um, would it, when you stop the rotor and pour it out, would the butter solids stick to the inside of the rotor or not? And if there was still liquid water, right? It's very hard to do liquid liquid separations, liquid-liquid separations, unless you just force the liquid out. So, what you could do, uh, and John, you could do you could add hot water to it and push the butter out.
+
+[43:46] That would work. But then you'd have to know, I mean, you'd have to do a couple of calculations, but yeah, you could. I know it would work. I mean, John, you could try doing a couple sticks, seeing whether it pours right, but unless you bore boil off all the water, you're gonna need to do a uh hot water push to push the other stuff off the top. Does that make sense, John?
+
+[44:03] Does that make sense to anyone but me? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know, that makes sense. That's like the the herboil infusion recipe that you have in the spinzall menu. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[44:13] Yeah, because I mean you think about it, like liquid liquid is the toughest. Oh my god, do you know what I got the knockoff Searzol on Friday or Saturday? Did it flake dandruff into your food? I haven't used it yet because it made me so angry. How it's our box, our direction.
+
+[44:30] The directions are are I mean, the manual is printed on you know, eight and a half by eleven, and our manual is not, it's not folded correctly, it's not in the bag, it's all these things, and but it's insane because it's our logo, it's exactly the same. Well, we know for a fact exactly who's doing it. We know exactly who's doing it because they made a prototype for us once when you know we tried to switch, and in fact, it threw all the things. And we are suing the S H I T off of them because we are lawyer our So if you're listening now, we are suing you. I mean, like it's like I work with an idiot.
+
+[45:12] Who me? I'm like, here's the thing. Why is it that but like I like these people should be thrown off of a cliff? It's like they didn't just knock off the idea. Like what like what like what is that?
+
+[45:23] What is that? What is the other one called it? I don't remember, but yeah, I yeah. But they it's like it's like I remember once I spoke to uh I you know uh like Jen, my wife Jen, um, did a bunch of work and is friends with one of the you know partners of Kate Spade before Kate's Bay got sold to Neiman Marcus. And I once asked her, I was like, yo, how does it make you feel when you see these like all these knockoffs down on Canal Street?
+
+[45:49] And she's like, I hate it. I want to kill them. You know what I mean? And now I kind of know what it what it what it feels like. You know what I mean?
+
+[45:57] Because like well, I think one way to make it even worse for for us in a sense, is that they, you know, like it was direct your customer service emails to us. Yeah. So it's just like a waste of my time and our time of doing all this for a completely bootleg product. Well, that's how we found out is that like, you know, a customer asked John about this thing throwing off flakes. And I was like, throwing off flakes.
+
+[46:20] The only flakes I've ever seen thrown off was that bootleg like proto, that company who was trying to make them instead of the company that we actually get to make them, sent us one, and I was like, your product sucks, it throws flakes off, and we never used them. And that's when it's that's when it struck, I guess, John or Nastasi, and they went back and found out that they weren't buying it from a person who had the the right to sell them. You know, it was like, because he he little hint. We make them all. So like there's no other seller other than the ones that we know we've sold to.
+
+[46:51] You know, you know what I mean? So it's like, man, man, that burns. Don't enjoy. Um all right. Uh let's see, another, another lot of spinzall questions.
+
+[47:05] I guess because we did a zoom seminar on spinzalls. That's why I have so many spins all questions. Uh hey, crew. Uh, thanks, uh, thanks to the whole team for an enjoyable informable uh informative seminar. I've been you we did it with Jack Schramm.
+
+[47:18] Uh uh, I've been using the spinzall as a home enthusiast uh since its launch with moderate success. I guess it's better than no success. Uh with the knowledge I gleaned from the seminar, I'm confident that my success rate will improve. I'm now planning to buy a CO2 injection system. When I look up the blue carbonation cap, which is I believe called the Carbacap or something like that.
+
+[47:35] It used to be called the Liquid Bread Corporation, but I think they changed their name. Liquid bread meaning beer. Uh I read many recent negative reviews. Most of the complaints about the cap are them not fitting most PET bottles. Do you know if this is uh if this is indeed the brand of cap you use?
+
+[47:49] Your sage advice is much appreciated. Best regards, David Sprintis. Uh okay. So the truth of the matter, uh, David, is that um there are two uh there are two main, maybe even three now main styles of screw threads that are uh made for uh uh soda bottles now. And they are somewhat interchangeable.
+
+[48:09] And so the carbonator cap will in fact fit on both of them. However, my main problem with the new carbonator caps is that they tend to cross-thread. So maybe what like people are talking about, and you need to on some of them you need to cut off the bands, the the white plastic uh anti-tamper bands, in order for them to set uh set properly. But I have I have been able I for years, for a couple of years during this main switchover, I used to search around for the old style bottles and vintage seltzer as the bastion of New York Seltzer Dome, uh was I think one of the last ones here to move over to the new style of bottles. So they used to have the taller, kind of more traditional, kind of more square.
+
+[48:52] If you look at the old soda bottle caps, they're kind of more square, more top-hatdy. And the newer ones are more kind of like uh a little shorter, a little more pork pie-like, uh, if to use the hat analogy. And um, but you can get them to seat on them. But I the new carbonator caps, the new plastic ones, I just find to be unpleasant in terms of their ability to cross-thread, but they they should work. Um Evan uh Flynn on Instagram says, I had a question, I was wondering if you could shed some light on.
+
+[49:20] I wasn't sure who to ask, so I figured uh that we'd be the most knowledgeable on the subject. I recently fat washed a bourbon with butter. Once completed, should I store it room temp or should it be in the fridge? I feel like normal root temp shouldn't be an issue, but because it was fat washed with a dairy product, now I'm not sure. Thanks so much.
+
+[49:36] Uh you and your bars are truly inspirable. Thank you so much, Evan. And you do not need to worry about it, it will not spoil. Um, even milk, if you add milk to uh like liquor, as long as the alcohol level is high enough, you're not going to get spoilage. Uh, what you do need to worry about is that if there is residual fat, that fat can go rancid.
+
+[49:54] And in fact, in general, what you need to worry about when fat washing is making sure that you don't use rancid fats or have residual fat in your product that can go rancid. So, like some things that go rancid very easily are like uh sunflower seed oil goes rancid very easily. Sesame seed oil goes rancid very easily. If you whip a lot of air into butter or keep it in the fridge, it can get a lot of rancidity fairly quickly on the outside. So it's more rancidity you have to guard against, but once you've fat washed it and you've gotten all the fat out, you should be a good to go.
+
+[50:24] Elliot Papadot wrote in, uh long time, uh long time listener of the show. Elliot writes in, and by the way, uh uh John, you pointed out uh where he grows on the farm. Uh why don't you want to talk about that for a second? Yeah, no, I actually got to when I went to Chicago to pick up the Ebonite Test kitchen. I got to go to uh this restaurant called the Loyalists, which is part of uh this restaurant group called Smith and the Loyalists.
+
+[50:47] It's run by John and Kern Shields. It's absolutely fantastic. Food. And Elliot grows all of or not all, but a lot of the produce for them on his place called The Farm. Uh, you should follow him on Instagram.
+
+[50:58] I think it's at underscore the farm underscore something like that. He's uh now loyalist to who? King King George III? I mean, who are they loyal to? I I don't know.
+
+[51:09] It didn't occur to for me to ask that. We don't cotton to loyalists. True. Uh 10 million. So uh Nastasia does.
+
+[51:19] The as I've said, the only now Nastasia, you know what you've done, right? So Nastasia, for people who know, you know, who've listened to the show for a long time, everybody knows that I love America. Nastasia does not. I made an American flag. Okay, so like whatever.
+
+[51:35] Everybody knows it. It's just true. So like, but the the butasia especially hates anything patriotic except fireworks and as it turns out, red, white, and blue sprinkles. Right. But so Nastasia sent Booker, and by the way, I have the I have the canned, I have three cans of uh of tinned white anchovies for you.
+
+[52:01] I haven't eaten one yet. I've saved them for you. And I told you I bought it for Booker and told him not to eat it without me so that I could see if they were good. And he was like, and he just did it anyway. I was like, how did you like them?
+
+[52:14] And this is classic Booker. He says, not as much. I was like, how did you like them? Not as much. As what?
+
+[52:22] And what he means is so any canned fish is rated against oil packed, skinless, boneless sardines. So like basically the height of tinned seafood for Booker is skinless, boneless, sardines packed in oil. And everything else is I didn't like it as much. Right? And so, oh, speaking of which, so anyway, I'll finish this.
+
+[52:44] So Nastasia drops off red, white, and blue uh sprinkles, and Booker's like, I'm gonna make her an American flat cake. Because no, she just likes the sprinkles. Yeah, but I don't remember a bean, maybe it's an English. Is she English? Yeah.
+
+[52:57] And then you burned it. Kidding. English? Yeah. Her her love of the sprinkles overrides her hatred for the she hasn't actually hate.
+
+[53:06] I don't want to hear anything from people. I'm just ribbing her. I'm just ribbing her. Okay. We're going down a really bad thing.
+
+[53:13] Yeah, yeah. So wait, so speaking of tinned fish, uh, John, you're planning on something interesting with tin fish, are you not? Yeah, I'm having a tin fish extravaganza on Wednesday night. I've been buying up this particular brand of tin fish that's supposed to be quite good from the Bass region in Spain called La Brujula. B-R-U-J-U-L-A.
+
+[53:33] And I've got like 16 different tins of seafood and gonna have a friend over who's been similarly quarantining. Um, and we're gonna taste them all and see what the verdict is. I'm looking forward to it. Um I have a question for the listeners out there or the in the chat room, and I don't want to research this. I want someone else to answer my question for a change.
+
+[53:55] In Willy Wonka, like the original, right? When Veruca Salt goes, I want a feast. I want a bean feast. What the heck is a bean feast? Does anyone know?
+
+[54:07] Has anyone heard of this thing? The bean feast? You guys remember the song, right? I want it now. Yes.
+
+[54:16] I want a feast, I want a bean feast. You know what? Uh a bean feast was an informal turn for a celebratory meal or party, especially an annual summer dinner given by an employer to his employer's employees. By who by his or by an employer to his or her emplo his or her. So we're talking about Mr.
+
+[54:35] Salt putting an extra one pound uh one pound uh bonus in their pay bucket if they find the golden ticket for Veruca. Remember this? I have the entire movie memorized, it's kind of weird. Um okay. Uh so as Elliot asked, uh, I want to get a vac chamber sealer for the farm.
+
+[54:54] Well, we discussed the farm and loyalists, and that's how we got on to Nastasi's Hateworth of the Country, but her love of sprinkles. Uh what? I want to get a VAC chamber sealer for the farm. And should I look at the poly science versus the vacmaster VP two fifteen uh or any other maker? Thanks for the help.
+
+[55:10] Okay, so both the VACMaster VP two fifteen and the poly science are in the thousand dollar range. Uh just you know, as you know, anyone who knows me knows, like I'm a fan of Philip Preston uh and poly science. I have used neither the VA I've not used any of the VACMaster products, nor have I used the poly science sealer. I will say this the VAC Master uh the 215 has an oil pump in it and the poly science has a dry pump in it. Now, I don't I couldn't find online the actual pump that the VAC master has, right?
+
+[55:42] But I will say that in general, um oil pumps outperform dry pumps. They require some maintenance, right? But uh oil pumps in general outperform dry pumps in general. Is it possible to get a dry pump that could, you know, uh like a a like a monster dry pump that could outperform like a weak oil pump? Yes.
+
+[56:02] Um, but in fact, the reason why most commercial, bigger commercial units cost so much money is they all have a pump made by the Busch Corporation, which is a German corporation, and those pumps are beasts, those oil pumps are beasts. And so what a large pump gives you, right? The reason why you care about the pump isn't really the ultimate vacuum, although that's important. It's how fast it can achieve a vacuum. So, like any vacuum machine that's worth its salt, i.e.
+
+[56:31] anything with a pump that's a lot better than let's say a food saver, right, can probably achieve a low enough ultimate vacuum for you to get the sealing results that you want. The question is, how often do you need to do it? So a machine with a giant pump, like a hard pump, will be able to do like three, four times as fast, well, two, maybe, three, maybe times fast a vacuum cycle to a given level of vacuum than a uh a smaller pump will. Likewise, uh, the bigger the pump, the bigger a chamber it can evacuate in a particular length of time. So, what you one of the main issues in a vacuum machine is the size of the item that you can vacuum down.
+
+[57:13] And so you really want to look at the chamber size and whether or not it is big enough to accomplish what you want. And the kind of weaker the pump, right, the um the longer and longer it takes, and the smaller and smaller a chamber needs to be. So to give you an idea, like most of the uh oil pumps are a pain in the butt when you're running them for uh rotary evaporation for distillation because they have to run for such a long time that they tend to volatilize uh oil into the kitchen smell bad, right? Uh and um so when those things are running, there's a very big incentive to not have an oil-based pump. So they have dry pumps.
+
+[57:50] Now I have run oil-based, even just like $200 oil-based refrigeration pumps like the Robinairs and whatnot on my uh rotary evaporator, and they are much faster and achieve a much lower vacuum. And those aren't even good. Those are nowhere near what like the bush pump in a commercial vacuum machine can do. And those blow blow that like the $900,000 dry vacuum pumps that they sell for rotary evaporation out of the water in terms of the speed and the ultimate uh uh vacuum they can achieve. So that's what you should look at.
+
+[58:22] But I have not used either of them, and as I said, and and John and I and Nastasia were talking about it. Uh, I don't really know how it would work. I I I'm loath to recommend a piece of equipment unless I've used it, right? Or at least seen it used or put my hands on it. And I've used neither of these, but uh I don't know how it would work because but you know, we're open to doing equipment reviews, right, guys?
+
+[58:43] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um Devin weighed in in the chat, he had also not used this, but he said if Elliot wants to be a guinea pig, he could try the made, quote, made with meat brand vac chamber. Uh it's the cheapest oil chamber vac other than weird eBay stuff. Seems to be from the same factory as VACMaster.
+
+[59:03] No idea of quality, though. A few weeks ago, there was a 25% off coupon coupon from them online, in addition to already being cheaper than the Backmaster and Backpack kit from Webstaurant store. No affiliation, but if you want to roll the dice, please let us know. Did you know that I'm made of meat? We all um so uh so Philip Preston.
+
+[59:25] I will tell you this story that he told me. Philip Preston once bought a very cheap uh vacuum uh chain chamber vacuum online because he does that. He'll he'll test other other pieces of equipment. Um he bought one that was an oil-based pump, and then when he ran liquids in it and the and the liquids vaporized inside of the chamber, like somehow it developed some sort of electrical short and made all this like crazy smoke inside of inside of inside of the chamber. So if it's made by the same factory, I'm sure it's fine.
+
+[59:56] But I will tell you this. When uh when a factory, when you go to a factory and they make something, right, and then they no longer have the manufacturer who cares about quality riding them, things slip. Just like the story I was telling you. This one company, we sent them, we sent them Searzals to see whether they could make the searzols for us, and the ones that they made didn't reach our quality requirements, and so we didn't use them, and they were cheaper, right? But they didn't reach our quality, and now they are knocking us off.
+
+[1:00:27] So just because something looks the same doesn't mean it's made to the same uh specifications. And I and I can say that like most factories don't use the equipment that they're making ever, like they're not cooks, and so they wouldn't even know how to figure out whether something worked right if they wanted to. Would you say that's accurate, Sas? Yeah. Uh John Sconzo, longtime friend, friend of the show.
+
+[1:00:54] Uh you know him as Doc Scans, perhaps on the Instagram. Hey Dave, any special tricks to clarifying mango with a spinzole? You mean fresh or you mean uh like in a Houstino? The issue with the Houstinos and mangoes is that they um your yield can be reduced somewhat because dried mango is is quite dry, depending like some some of it's like shoe leather. I would let it sit for a lot longer.
+
+[1:01:15] The problem with very dry mango is is, and I was talking about this in the in the spinzole thing, is that they can form little hard blebs, and these little hard blebs are hard to put through the pump, they're very hard. So I would say blend it a lot. Um, sometimes we will add a little bit of fresh mango in with dried mango into the ustino, and we're good to go. If you're talking about fresh mango, I've never had a problem with it, so let me know. It might be one of those things where you're better with uh doing um batch than doing uh continuous.
+
+[1:01:43] But uh Doc Scott's let us know exactly what your problems are, and John will hook you right up. Uh now, in the in the only 30 or so seconds or whatever that uh Matthew has uh allotted left for us. Um Alisio wrote in on Instagram, I watched a cookbook talk this morning with the Mets associate chief librarian Tony White, and he had a very high praise for liquid intelligence. Well, thank you. Uh I appreciate anyone that either likes the book or uses it to separate hot and cold foods like Nastasia does.
+
+[1:02:10] Uh, I'm also a special collections librarian in Toronto and love classics in the field. My favorite books in our collection are uh Scopi's Opera, which is the opera of Bartolomeo Scopi from 1570. Uh, and it's uh I've never read it. You ever read this? Read that book, Stas, when you're doing your Italian stuff.
+
+[1:02:28] It was like uh so the English translation was done, and I believe this guy is also Canadian, although I'm not sure, by Terrence Scully, who's one of the uh greatest ever scholars of um late medieval um cookery. Well, everyone's forget the name of Scully's like Scully's academic books, right? I have several of them, but Karen Scully is the translator of this book, and I don't know any more because it's been you know well over a decade since I last seriously studied these things, but at the time he was like the scholar, so I'm sure like he still likes to be. No one's stopping you, Dave. Everyone's going to be able to do it.
+
+[1:03:02] I have never read uh his translation of it, but I will uh look into it. I'm sure you have the original because you know you're the special collections uh librarian at Toronto, and your other favorite is Norman Douglas's Venus in the Kitchen. Now I did not know Venus in the Kitchen, uh, but uh it's available in uh paperback now. Uh they did a 2003 reprint in paperback, and you can get that on the Amazon for about four and a half bucks. Uh and it was published in 1952, and it's apparently like lists of crazy aphrodisiacs and weird things that that are like uh you know oysters, classic stuff, but like bulls test pie of bulls testicles.
+
+[1:03:41] Uh I'm not gonna even get into some of the other some of the other things, but like historical lists of crazy, um crazy kind of aphrodisiac stuff. So uh eventually we'll we'll we'll get that. And in fact, the classics in the field that we're gonna do today was uh a book that I did not know. Do I have time to do the classics in the field? What does that mean?
+
+[1:04:01] Matthew's either gonna turn us off or not. You can open your window and Stas, you can open your window and let the birds chirp. Nastasia, we're starting. The reason we were to the oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The reason we were talking about air conditioning at the beginning of the show was because Nastasia had her window open and you could hear nothing but these freaking birds chirping like some sort of like freaking Mary Poppins thing with birds going around her head.
+
+[1:04:24] Just just do it quick. All right. John, literate mush is the handle, recommended uh classics in the field. Yeah! All right, recommended uh and pronounce his name.
+
+[1:04:38] In English, it would be Raymond Oliver. Pronounce it, John. Raymond. Oh my god, so sick. You always need to have a uh a French uh a francophone uh sitting around.
+
+[1:04:51] So it's a book called uh La Cuisine. And if you can picture this book, the English version of the book. It was first published in France in uh in night in 1967, and it it was published in 1969 in English, and the English, the American cover, the English cover of it, the La Cuisine is written in that Mary Tyler Morphant. Can you guys picture that Mary Tyler Morphant? You want to what?
+
+[1:05:20] That weird blocky, like sans serif, like so it's pretty, and then the top of it is like a hyper close up of his face. So for those of you that like know us, like what we'll do is you'll send us a picture and we'll look at like a person's face. Like I'll look at Nastas, there'll be a party. Let's say there's a party, right? And there's like 30 people, and they all get together and they take a picture, and I'll look and this and everyone's smiling except Nastasia.
+
+[1:05:43] So what I'll do is is I'll go to the Nastasia's picture and then I'll zoom in and take a screenshot of that, and then I'll zoom in further and zoom in further until it's basically just like like the dead look in her eye, as the picture that we send around on on uh on on our text messages, true or false does. Yeah. And she'll do it to me, like when I when someone says something to me that horrifies me, but like no one who doesn't know me knows I'm horrified because they can't read the look on my face because I always have a smile, but Nastasia can tell the difference between the horrified smile and the real smile. Anyway, so she'll just send me the horrified smile, Rice S. Yeah.
+
+[1:06:18] So anyway, like the cover of this book is is like Mary Tyler Moore, La Cuisine, and then just a super close up of his face, just like his eyeballs and his mouth with this kind of like stern look on it. So from the minute I saw this book, I realized that this was probably gonna be a classic that uh John had turned me on to, John, who's literate mush, not our John. And then if you look up this guy, Raymond Oliver, who was born in 1909, and he had kind of a crazy life. During World War II, he uh he you know fled, uh, I think he fled France to Switzerland and was joined a resistance cell and like, you know, uh helped Allied uh downed uh, you know, um pilots, all this other stuff, all kinds of cool stuff. After the war, buys uh a very famous uh restaurant that'd been around since the uh 1700s called uh well, how do you pronounce it?
+
+[1:07:09] Le Grand Vithur. How do you pronounce that crap, John? Give me give me the grand V4 in French. Le Grand V. Anyway, so he gets this and then is uh it at the time wasn't three stars.
+
+[1:07:23] He brings it up, gets like the third star. And so like this guy is at the top of his game. He is he also interestingly hated uh Nouvelle cuisine. So after World War II, there was this kind of revolution in French cooking, Nouvelle cuisine, uh, and it was kind of displacing what was kind of Escoffier's like classic cuisine at the time. Uh and so he was this old school old guard like kind of uh like classic cuisine guy, didn't like Nouvelle cuisine at the butt at the top of his game, three stars, had a TV show, and he writes this book that I can't believe I didn't already know about.
+
+[1:07:58] And it's got some crazy stuff, especially kind of crazy sexism, that weird kind of sexism where he thinks he's being nice. Like, for instance, he doesn't believe that uh men can set the table or do decoration properly because we'll just mess it up. That's like that kind of like weird, that weird sexism. Anyway, uh, it's full of that. But the beginning of the book is, and and the photos are amazing.
+
+[1:08:22] So he hires like all of these, as he says, quote unquote hostesses who he thinks are really good uh around Europe to set up their tables, and so there's all these crazy 60s table settings in full color that he has, which are just a joy to look at these kind of crazinesses, and also he has lots of um like awesome black and white pictures. Like, remember before when I was talking about classics in the field, I was talking about the uh River Cottage cookbook and how there was a uh a picture of uh a pig in it, and they had drawn uh the cuts of the pig on this pig. Now that picture was awesome because uh it was a pig just out like in a meadow in a field with the lines uh drawn in it. But of course, my man uh Raymond Oliver has uh the same thing, but in a more kind of stayed fashion. So the pictures are amazing, like the way he cuts up live cows with uh images of their cuts is amazing.
+
+[1:09:15] But if you want it for nothing else, you're gonna get this book for the polemic introduction. Now, the introduction alone is like uh when I got the book first, I read the entire thing to uh my family in kind of a stentorian voice. I don't have time to do that, but I'm gonna give you some choice, some choice nuggets. Now, in case they cut me off, I'm gonna give you this one first because uh I love now. This is very anti-modern, right?
+
+[1:09:41] But it's hilarious coming from an old school French chef. If you ever met the old school French chefs, you'd know what I mean. There is no such thing as the art of fixing leftovers. There are only tricks, and often a great deal of indulgence on the part of the guests. Once again, we're on the fringe of gastronomy.
+
+[1:09:58] By what outward signs may we judge this period of transition? So he's like railing against like like the art of the leftovers, so anti-modern, right, guys. Now that everyone's focused on trying to use leftovers, he's like, there is no art of the leftover, only tricks. And then he says, uh, what does he say? He goes, it is a widely held misconception that our ancestors were in their day incomparable gastronomes.
+
+[1:10:21] This deeply rooted error has also made them all into authentic gargantuas. By gargantua, he's uh referencing the hero of the Rablay, garg gargantua and panting rule. Uh so he's like, he goes in as kind of an anti-Nouvelle cuisine, kind of like like a person trying to uphold the classics, but then at the same time is like people in the past sucked. I love it. I just love the like the screaming.
+
+[1:10:46] And then he goes, he talks about uh making sure that your uh that that your environment is nice when you're when you're eating. He goes, cooking, divested of its decor, seems mutilated or reduced. Such settings, i.e., where you're eating uh play settings and whatnot, such settings may seem highly artificial, yet they are no less indispensable to the culinary art of which they are, moreover, an aspect. And here's where here's where uh this is like should I give a little bit of the sexism or no? Whatever you go out on, this is this is the one.
+
+[1:11:18] Oh, geez. If you want to do sexism. I don't want to go out on the sexism. Let me see what I can uh let me see. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
+
+[1:11:25] Oh, nah. Now you're killing me. You're killing me. You're killing me. He has the part where he he describes the reason that John sent it to me was no, no, do not cheat in another one.
+
+[1:11:38] Is this the one? Oh no, now you're killing me. You're killing me. Let me see. Let me see.
+
+[1:11:43] Let me see. There let's see, you're killing me. Uh I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[1:11:51] No. No, there's this there's too much. There's too many words of wisdom. I guess. Well, sounds like people should go out and buy the book.
+
+[1:11:59] They should definitely buy this classic in the field, but I have so many things that are that are. All right. I'll leave this just because it fits with modern day uh thinking, even though it's not what I wanted to talk about. And and and Matthew won't let me uh he's Matthew now that I'm add. He won't let me.
+
+[1:12:15] Yeah, I can tell now I'm upset I'm at on Matthew. The photograph indicating the position of the hands, the shape of the knife, the place to stick in the fork, and a thousand other details becomes an absolute necessity. For in cooking, the technical lecture, which is not accompanied by a demonstration is totally useless. Now remember, this is relatively not, you know, not every book back in the day had photographs, like Ascalfia had no photographs. Color, with its precision, has completely changed the uses of photography.
+
+[1:12:43] Photographs have now become suggestive and appetizing. If one may say that, they are in any case favorable to inspiration. So a pre-love of the color photograph for Instagram and a reminder, as I've always said, don't listen to what the chef says. Look at their hands. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:13:04] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:13:18] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:13:39] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:27] This is Dave Orton, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the lower east side of Manhattan. Nastasia Lopez is coming to you from Stanford, Connecticut. And we got John Nahoul coming to you from what do you call that? Murray Hill? What is that?
+
+[0:40] Yep, Murray Hill. And Matt is in his Brooklyn booth, right? You're not back in the Rhode Island, are you in Providence Plantation? Yeah, Sunset Park, baby. Yeah.
+
+[0:47] Where the hell is Sunset Park exactly? What is that? Uh South Park Slope. And why do they call it Sunset Park? Since they're like, like to me, like all sunset things need to be in California where the sun sets.
+
+[1:00] Where when you're on the water, the sun sets. Yeah, but we have we have an elevated park that is like legit the best place to watch the sunset. Uh-huh. So outside of California. Nastasia is a connoisseur of uh the sun going up and down.
+
+[1:17] Uh have you ever been on like I'm sure like the north side of Long Island is also a good place to watch the sunset because you can pretend you're you can pretend that there's no land to your to your west, right? Well, then you have the buildings like outlining the sunset, which is nice when you're in Long Island City. No, not Long Island City, the actual Long Island, when you're on the sound looking over, you can kind of pretend that it's the ocean, right? Yeah. Whatever.
+
+[1:48] Uh Nastasia once sent me a oh no, was she had said what a nice sun. No, she was going to look at a sunset, and I said to her, hey, how is the sunset? And then before she could answer, what did I say, Nastasia? You said, you know what? Never mind.
+
+[2:01] I've seen every sunset. Yep. That's my friend and business partner. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[2:11] So that's occasionally when she wants to show that I have no uh no heart, she'll be, she'll bust out the I've seen every sunset. Um so uh last week, by the way, uh we took a week off. Uh as you know, we were um out at the uh rallies and protests here in New York. Um for uh in support of Black Lives Matter and in support of uh George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, uh and their families. Uh so I just want to say obviously all of that stuff is still going on.
+
+[2:48] Uh we're doing the radio show this week uh anyway, and uh because I guess you know, John and and Nastasi, we figured this is gonna be a a long, long, long, long, long road. So uh we want you to know we s we still um want you to go out and support, do what you can to support Black Lives Matter, go out to rallies. Uh I know there's gonna be a number of rallies this weekend. We're gonna go to um what do you guys have anything to add? Go to Marches and protests if you can, and if you feel safe and comfortable doing it in light of the COVID.
+
+[3:21] Um, and if you're able to, you know, I don't know about speaking for you and Nastalfia, but you know, if you can donate to some funds, donate to some bailout funds, donate to the NAACP, donate to Black Lives Matter. There are a lot of really great organizations out there right now where your money will make a difference. Right. And uh yeah, I feel extremely fortunate in that because I'm antibody positive, uh, I don't, I'm not personally worried about going um going out and and protesting. But when you do go out and protest, please, you know, try to maintain um, I mean, it's impossible out there to maintain a safe distance, but you know, try to make sure you wear your masks and try to stay safe when you when you're out there.
+
+[4:02] And an excellent point that was brought up on one of the um at one of the rallies was if you have a business, uh you know, try try to think about doing business with black-owned businesses as a as a as a thing that um allies can do uh who have businesses, try to make a point of seeking out black-owned businesses to do work with. Um what do you what do you guys have uh anything else you want to uh you want to add? I think that's great. If you want to support both Heritage Radio and uh the Flando Castile Foundation, Heritage is donating well, heritage is like giving uh 10% of the proceeds that come into heritage this week um to Flando Castile Foundation. So uh, you know, I did not I did not know that.
+
+[4:55] Um I did not know that. And also obviously, you know, uh in a related note, the museum of food and drink. This is like this is a plea for a plea for help uh at the beginning, but uh Museum of Food and Drink, obviously, uh, which you know John is still working for while he works for us at Booker and DAX. We're still working hard on getting our African slash American uh exhibit up. More on that later, because I thought I'd do for classics in the field today, one of uh Dr.
+
+[5:22] Jessica Harris's, who's our lead curator, one of her uh best known books, and the one that introduced me to her, but that's for later in the program. Um so any of you guys, uh any of you guys eat anything interesting, do anything interesting this week from a food standpoint? Um I'm fermenting out some kiwis to make into vinegar. Why kiwis? They're already so high in acid.
+
+[5:50] So, like in other words, like my question is why why choose something that's already so high in acid to do your fermentation on? I don't know. I saw them at Fairway, and for some reason I just felt like doing it. I don't know, I've been fermenting or fermenting out a lot of different fruits to make into vinegars. I've got rhubarb, blueberry, cranberry, uh, strawberry, I've got some mead vinegar.
+
+[6:14] I don't know, and it's just it's fun to see what they all turn out to be. So I figured why not try kiwi. Now are you doping the kiwi with sugar to get the alcohol level up so that you get a higher uh higher vinegar percentage? Yes, I am. Yeah.
+
+[6:26] So like what percentage sugar are you taking it up to, roughly? I I'm really just kind of eyeing it out. Um I should probably start taking some measurements and getting things to be a little bit more consistent, but I'd probably say it looks like a quarter of the weight of the of the kiwis that I put in. Well, that's that's very techy there, John. I know, isn't it?
+
+[6:49] I don't know, like a quota, like something like a quota. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah. Um, and uh we didn't get a chance because it happened uh it too recently.
+
+[6:59] You want to discuss your fish feast, your tinned fish feast? Oh, yeah, that was really excellent. Um, I had one of my friends Brian over. He works uh for Jose Andres, and he came over and um we had some really nice wines, and then these awesome tinned fish. Uh La Brujula is the brand, they're from Galicia, Spain, and say that again because that was it that was unintelligent.
+
+[7:22] You gotta say that slowly. La brujula, I think is how it's pronounced. B-R-U-G-U-L-A. Um, and I got every type of, and I've been collecting these for a couple months now, and I finally got every type of tinned seafood product that is available in the US. So it was razor clams, cockles, uh, large clams, whole bunch of different types of sardines, scallops and sauce, octopus and paprika sauce, uh sea urchin.
+
+[7:50] That's the crazy one right there. Tinned sea urchin row. It was very good. What do you think about that? Conceptually, Nastasi, what do you think?
+
+[7:59] Doesn't sound that great. Nastasi also remember, not a fan of razor clams, is the only person I know who does not like razor clams. And it's it's you actually don't like it. It's not that you're worried about sand, it's just you don't like it, right? But it's not the sand.
+
+[8:16] No, it's not the sand. Is it that they're too sweet and you don't like sweet clams? No, I just don't like shellfish in general. I just really don't like shellfish. What about like steamed mussels with oh, you don't like french fries?
+
+[8:29] I forgot. Oh my god. I can do without. It's not like that's the thing. I can eat it all.
+
+[8:36] I just I would rather not order it. Do you know what you're not like? I'm averse like scallops though. Oh, all scallops? Yeah.
+
+[8:45] I ate so many of them as a kid. Like we would boil them and then I just eat them and well, boil them. First of all, I mean, I've when was the last time you gave a scallop a chance? Like a real chance. A lot, because that's the dish that most restaurants will comp will like send out from the chef and you're like, oh, and then I just eat it.
+
+[9:05] Yeah. So I feel like a lot. I feel like I mean, I feel like to really be like the sc you gotta need to do the East Coast scallop thing, but I mean if you've done it now, if it's been ruined for you, it's ruined for you. There's nothing I can do about it. No, I've had amazing scallops, like the ones that Pasternek does at ask like the you know.
+
+[9:24] Are you gonna do his you're gonna you're gonna imitate his voice for me if you're gonna I need to scratch my balls while doing it. But um yeah, I mean I understand what a good scallop tastes like. I understand all about it, but I just don't like it. I just feel bad that it got ruined for you by your your childhood as well scallops. I ate them a lot as a like well, they were like special, you know, so they were special or you ate them a lot or both.
+
+[9:52] Well, like they were the special occasion food, like Mother's Day. And boiled. So your dad cooked them for your mother on Mother's Day and he boiled them. Is this what I'm getting? Yeah, something like that.
+
+[10:04] Were they at least in some sort of a soup? Was it a tomato situation? Oh. What? But why would you boil?
+
+[10:11] I don't know. I'm trying to understand, like, I'm in a kitchen, I have scallops, and I'm like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna throw them in boiling water. And I just I didn't eat. I just think this is not what comes to my head.
+
+[10:24] Yeah, I understand. It might, you know we were yeah, we were shake and bake household. I mean, I could see scallops in a bag, shake and bake, and then like very quickly like like like roasted, like that I can see. If you're a shaking bag, shake and bake scallops, I could design my whole life around a shake and baked scallop. But like, well manga, I spent a lot of money on this for special occasion.
+
+[10:50] I'm gonna throw it in boiling water. I mean, I don't know. John, what do you think, man? What do you think, Matthew? I mean, I wouldn't boil a scallop like if that's how Nastasia and her family enjoyed them as when she was growing up, like sure.
+
+[11:06] I don't know. I mean, I have you tried a boiled scallop? Like, do you have the right to crap all over it the way you are? I've had scallop in soups. Okay.
+
+[11:14] Right? But if you're gonna put a scallop into a soup situation, right? That's the kind of shit stuff, excuse me, that's the kind of stuff where you you make like a fume or whatever, or you know, you make your shellfish stock, and then you reserve all of the fish parts, and then you throw the scallops in at the end. You basically toss them in at the end and let the carryover cook them as you take them to the table. Every time I've ever done like a fish stew or a fish thing, and it involves scallops, the scallops, I I steam cook all of the shellfish over, like with white wine, and take the steaming liquids, add those to the pot to make the base soup, use the bones from the fish to make a fume, combine those two things, make the stock, and then fold the actual seafood products, especially something like scallops and at the end.
+
+[12:08] That's the way for decades and decades and decades that I have done any fish stew or any fish like liquid fish product that wasn't meant to be cooked forever, like a like a I don't really care what I'm doing. I mean, that's not how I do uh what's it called? Clam chowder, because they're supposed to be little rubbery garbages there. That's the whole concept is rubbery garbages. So you hack them up and you do it.
+
+[12:28] You know what I mean? But your way is very not shake and bake. No, but I'm saying like I could just see, like, I could see some sort of a shake and bake situation. Having, like, am I the only person here who has actually made shake and bake in the 70s? Yes, I've caught obviously I'm the only one who's done it in the 70s because I'm the only one that was alive during the 70s.
+
+[12:48] But I remember actually doing it. It was a real thing that we we did back in the day. That that is real. That happened. That is not like just like a myth, the shake and bake.
+
+[12:58] Um did you actually do shake and bake in your house, Nastasi, or are you just saying? Oh, all the time, yeah. So they had it in the 80s as well? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[13:08] Really? You can still go buy shake and bake? Yes. When you were growing up, did they have that commercial? Shake and bake and I help.
+
+[13:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I help. Kid did not. Well, the kid, it was a help, I guess. It was a help.
+
+[13:25] Uh did they have the hamburger helper commercials when you were a kid? Mm-hmm. Do they have the riceroni commercials? Oh, yes. So we we we basically, even though we're like, you know, more than 10 years apart, we're basically had the same kind of commercial-based childhood.
+
+[13:41] That's why Dave and I need to enter a game show together. I I really think that that would pay for our next product. The game show together. Well, if we have money. We have code words that we say with each other that no one else would, no one else would get.
+
+[13:56] Right. It's gotta be like the newlywed game, but for colleagues. Yeah. For like business partners, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[14:02] We we would kill. We would kill. Yeah, we would, we would, we would wipe them out. We would wipe them out. It's true.
+
+[14:07] Um, but I I still now can't get all of these dang commercials out of my head that I just brought up. Did they have the um you know you can't have cookies for breakfast, but you can have Cookie Crisp commercial when you were a kid? Yes, yes. Yeah. We weren't allowed Cookie Crisp though, because that was pushing it.
+
+[14:24] Yeah. Well, first of all, it's garbage. And it's all it's all sugar. So Booker's here, by the way. Booker's not in the case.
+
+[14:31] Where's my cake? He can't he can't hear you because I got the headphones on. Nastasi wants to know when she when you're gonna bring her cake up now that we've entered phase one and you can get on Metro North. End of months. Um I'll think of a time sometime at the towards the end of this month.
+
+[14:47] No, there you go, towards the end of this month. So Booker has made Nastasia's red, white, and blue sprinkle cake. And made? The cake is made, it's in the freezer. Okay.
+
+[14:59] It needs to be thawed and iced. Ask Nastasia why did she move out of New York City? It's the best place in the world. Okay, so this is not the forum for this kind of discussion, Booker, but I appreciate it. Like Booker's the only person who's like still a hundred percent New York all the time.
+
+[15:19] He's still like, yeah, New York, hell yeah, New York. What about when in like three weeks when it's gonna be a hundred degrees with a hundred percent humidity? He isn't with a mask. Yeah, the mask already. Booker spends twenty-three and a half out of every 24 hour period in his room, which has an air conditioner.
+
+[15:38] So it's like But he's gonna start ranting the subway again, I thought. Not anymore. I started taking the subway again. Yeah, so he started taking the subway now. So now he's gonna well, we'll see.
+
+[15:48] Booker has endured many a New York summer on subway platforms. So, and he for whatever reason. On the mask. He f yes, that's true. For whatever reason, Booker prefers like cloudless days.
+
+[15:59] One tiny wispy cloud at 32,000 feet. Oh, no. Did we talk about that on the air? Have we talked about that on the air? Probably.
+
+[16:18] There's a whole city. Well, I'm not going to get into it. Not going to get into nuclear warfare and cloud cover right now. We can do that. Yeah, that'll just take us straight to the end of the show.
+
+[16:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll just keep going on. Chat starts to revolt after about 25 minutes of non-cooking related stuff. Also, they said don't cook tonight called Chicken Delight or something. See, did I get Chicken Delay?
+
+[16:45] Chicken Delight. I'll have to Google that one, Google that one later. I mean, like, I can still picture that creepy hand though from Hamburger Helper and like be and like the super like that It was like uh I don't even want to get into it. I don't even want to get into the the gender politics of the hamburger helper helping her help her hamburger help her make a great meal. It's just like it's garbage.
+
+[17:05] Anyway, but uh nothing against the product. I don't even remember what it tastes like. It's fundamentally a hamburger macaroni casserole product. Am I right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[17:15] Oh, here's a question for you. What happened to the sloppy Joe? Does anyone still make the sloppy joe? No, but who is this Joe? There's a restaurant in New York City that does.
+
+[17:28] Well it's like a fast casual kind of thing, but Schnippers. Got the big red logo. They follow the sloppy Joe. Also, Brooks's vegan sloppy Joe. Oh my god, that's so good.
+
+[17:39] Yeah. Delicious. Now listen, listen, listen. Where are you with knife and fork on sloppy Joe? Are you a pickup, drip, 8,000 napkins, and then fork up the stuff that falls on your plate?
+
+[17:51] The latter. You gotta put the sloppy in sloppy joe. Are you kidding me? So you don't pull a de Blasio, you don't fork your knife and fork your sloppy joe. What well, open face turkey sandwich, you're allowed to eat with a knife and fork because it's not a sandwich.
+
+[18:07] It's a lie. Right? Sure, that makes sense. Yeah. Um, so what about you, John?
+
+[18:14] You you pick up your sloppy joe and have it go everywhere? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I haven't had a sloppy joe in a little while. That's when I probably have is Brooks's, but yeah, I think so. And yeah, you can just kind of pick it up and eat it.
+
+[18:25] Yeah. Have I ever told you my uh my multi-zillion dollar uh food idea? Maybe. So it feels like a good one to share. You probably should have told Nastasia that one at some point.
+
+[18:38] That we're never maybe not on the air, but we're never gonna do it anymore. No, no, you like it. We're never gonna do anything. So here's what it is here. That's why we don't have any money.
+
+[18:44] Here's what it is, here's this. So Nest, I think it was Stas, you were already working. Remember when the Stoners came and they wanted to make burrito tape? Oh, yeah. So these stoners, self uh self-styled stoners, wanted to make a uh an edible tape so that they could tape their burritos shut so that when they ordered their burritos when they were stoned out of their mind, they uh you know they wouldn't drip the product everywhere.
+
+[19:07] You remember this, Nastasia, right? And I said to them, Well, I'm not gonna make you a tape, but I did invent my thing, which is the semi-changa. Have I discussed the semi-changa? Yes, you have. On the air.
+
+[19:22] Well, I will say it again because no one has served me one yet. So what it is is it's half burrito, or maybe even two-thirds burrito, and one-third to one half chimichanga. So you have the hard base to hold the burrito with, and then you pick it up, you eat the soft burrito, and then you finish the hard chimichanga section, much like an ice cream cone. That is all kinds of winning. I would just look at that.
+
+[19:49] I think the edible burrito tape is the bajillion dollar idea. I'm not gonna pass any judgment on you uh for saying that, but like what are you gonna make this edible tape out of? With they we were working with Agar scripts. Me, why do I want edible tape on my burrito? I'll tell you what I do hate.
+
+[20:07] I do hate chewing on paper. When you buy like a sandwich that's goopy or goopy burrito and you peel back the paper and it gets all goop over the paper and you can't see the paper line anymore, and you start chewing on the paper, unpleasant. Yes. Unpleasant. What do you think about eating the rice paper on a white rabbit candy?
+
+[20:26] Like it. Yeah, I do too. Do you know white rabbit in the 80s was slightly softer, different. They changed the recipe at some time in like the either in the sometime in the 90s, I think in the all through the 80s it was the same. But I love a white rabbit candy.
+
+[20:41] You guys like uh Matt and John, you white rabbit candy people? Never had well, you've never had a white rabbit candy? No, man. What the hell? Send me one.
+
+[20:56] Remember in the what was it, early 2000s, when those ginger candies all of a sudden became the rage? No. The super hot ginger candies. God, I gotta get you guys on the candy train. I love those things.
+
+[21:08] That's not really Nastasia's jam, though, right? Alright, uh, quick note on bread making before uh in the wake of the Adam Leonty thing. I've been experimenting a lot with bread. I've got people uh Instagramming me stuff and twittering me stuff on bread and milling. Uh maybe we'll just do another show.
+
+[21:25] I've been working a lot with um with milling and uh different sifting technologies, so I have a lot to say. I've been plowing through uh a bunch of the wheat that I've uh bought. I've been experimenting mainly with um uh hard red uh winter. I don't have any hard red spring yet, and with software hard hard red winter. That's what we made our whole grain pasta out of.
+
+[21:52] Didn't you use some you didn't use some durum? Hard I'd have to look at the exactly some sort of durum. I want to try some hard red spring, but it's just not available, and I want to try some hard white. So, I mean, I I I could I will not because I have questions to get to, but like I could talk about like what I have learned over the past month in terms of flour tastes, and like here's the here's how this is gonna work. So, so Nastasia, I don't want you to worry.
+
+[22:18] Here's what's gonna happen. Here's what's gonna happen. I am going to probably do this for three or four months. I'm gonna go through all of the wheat I have, plus I'm gonna buy some hard white wheat and some red spring when I when it's available again. I'm gonna be testing a bunch of different stuff because I honestly like I love the product that I'm making and I think it's different.
+
+[22:40] But I also like roller milled, I also like bread made from roller milled white flour, right? So I don't dislike bread made from roller milled white flour, and I don't eat foods based on whether or not I think they're healthy. I eat them based on whether I think they're delicious. I do want to tell you if you have not milled your own flour or had very freshly milled flour or somebody else's freshly milled flour bread, it is way different and way better and way more interesting than any other whole wheat product that I've ever had. And I'm having having fun working with it.
+
+[23:12] But it's kind of like, you know, when I roast coffee, I'll roast coffee for like a year, then I'll take a pause for a year or two, then I'll do it for a year or two. I feel the same thing's gonna happen to me with milling my own flower. So you don't need to worry about me doing it all the time because Nastasia believes anything that I get into, even slightly, that that's gonna be my new my new thing that I'm gonna become a civil war reenactor. What else do you think I was gonna do? Uh Leatherman.
+
+[23:36] Well, that's gonna happen. Like if my family ever leaves me, my whole life has been centered on it. Broadway. Yeah, well, you know. What about Broadway?
+
+[23:47] What was Dave doing? Oh god, Dave belt out a show too. I will not. I'll be right back. Oh my god.
+
+[23:52] You guys are so you're not sure. You've heard me do it on the air a million times. Nobody knows Dave Arnold who haven't heard him belt out a freaking show channel. Oh man, we're just we're just leaving fly today. I'm gonna spend hours sleeping this show.
+
+[24:07] So Booker, Booker was saying he wanted to sell uh Booker was saying he wanted to sell his brother like it, like I don't know where this came up, but he was a very anti his brother. And uh, you know, as he and so I started singing Boy for Sale from Oliver, and then Booker did not enjoy that very much. But you know, of course, I of course I know Oliver by heart. I mean, who doesn't know Oliver by heart? You also know Leigh Ms.
+
+[24:34] You do Fiddler on the Roof. I used to I used to literally know Fiddler on the Roof uh by heart because in sixth grade I was Tevya. And back then, when I had nothing else on my mind, I memorized the entire play. I mean, it's yeah. I mean, how hard is didledeidle deedle diddle deedle didle dumb?
+
+[24:44] You go around the room all day long at bitty bitty bum. Come on, man. I mean, this is something that stays with you forever. You never lose. By the way, I think he lived very close to where I was.
+
+[25:01] Also, Dave, you and I were saying we were gonna start a band last week, and I was like, I can't sing, and you were like, that's okay. Don't worry about it. It's not important. Not important. Yeah.
+
+[25:12] Yeah. Why were we gonna do that? Uh I don't know, just something other than what we were doing, which doesn't appear to be working. Uh hey, by the way, uh cooking questions. By the way, hey, we've been talking about bread baking, man.
+
+[25:30] Hamburger helped me. I don't want to go back. I don't want to, I don't want to go back to bread baking. He just asked you to. I just heard him do it.
+
+[25:35] I just heard him do it. Oh, but I have to say though, not about bread in particular, but I am loving this pseudo Detroit pizza I've been working on. Loving it. Loving the pseudo Detroit pizza. I wouldn't mind going back to Detroit.
+
+[25:48] Not just for the pizza, though. I do miss their hot dogs. They have such good, or as they call them conies. Inexplicably, they call them conies. They're very good.
+
+[25:56] Uh but you didn't you didn't care about it, right? You just got the chili. You didn't even get the dog. Did you even try one of those dogs? Yeah, you broke me off a piece.
+
+[26:05] Speaking of, are you eating one right now? Old stamps. Old stamps? How do stamps make the noise of thumbtacks? They're in like a thing.
+
+[26:20] See, you're doing to us what you hate for people to do to you. This is why you don't go to movie theaters. Because you don't like the popcorn bag. That's true. I didn't know if you could hear it.
+
+[26:29] Okay. Okay. Okay. From Thomas Zernigan via email. I recently tried to make Orja.
+
+[26:39] I started by blending my hot water and almonds. Then I pour this mix directly into the rotor, presumably the rotor of a spinzall or our centrifuge, and spun it for 20 minutes or so. There was no clarification or separation. Yeah, that's not the way. That's not the way the orja's uh work for the rotor for the spinzole.
+
+[26:57] In general, I you know, I'm usually making such a large quantity of those things that I go through a nut bag and then a press is actually how I do those things in in real life. But when I do uh nut milks in the spinzole, I do it around the quantity of nuts. So I always have the quantity of nuts in the recipe be roughly 400 miles. D's nuts. That is that what you're looking for?
+
+[27:23] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But if you um if you're uh oh my god, now I have that whole song going through my head. Um uh so if you if you do that, the idea is is that all of the liquid that you blend in will get filtered through the nuts, through these nuts as they go through um as they're in the rotor, and you'll get because the first like the first like couple hundred milliliters you get off are gonna look almost clear in a continuous uh situation, but you're not gonna get a decent separation out of those hard puree uh nuts like that. Uh, even in a big center, if you you know, you will get it when you're running it at 4,000 G's for like 20 minutes.
+
+[28:05] But with this one, it's really more about uh trying to fill the rotor with these nuts solids, uh, and then uh and then getting the the stuff out, but in general, like nut bags, uh nut milk bags, and uh there are are I think the way to go, but they're endeth the their endeth the suggestive nut bag talk. Um Aaron Holbeck from Instagram. Okay, now Nastasia's gonna hate this one. You're gonna hate this one, Nastasia. Well, which is because it's like highly technical and like all tweaked out.
+
+[28:35] You hate it. Anyway. Uh hey Dave, I'm building a proofing box, so we're back on bread. You happy about that, Nastasia. For those of you that don't know, uh sometimes if people can't control uh the environment in their kitchen, the humidity or the temperature, they build a proofing box.
+
+[28:53] The proofing box is usually a higher temperature than you would have in your normal house or kitchen, but it's consistent, so you can kind of guarantee the proofing rates, and you need a relatively high humidity and a relatively high temperature, but also a relatively large volume because you're gonna be putting a bunch of bread into it. I am building a proofing box by retrofitting a Coleman cooler with an immersion circulator and closet shelving. I intend on uh mapping the bull, i.e. the bread bull, uh the bread bull's height through uh through its proofing by using a laser ping range finder with one millimeter resolution. How you like that, Stas?
+
+[29:27] Okay, okay. Yeah, I was wondering if the appropriate time to bake is when the bull's maximum height has uh plateaued. Uh I'm just getting into the modernist bread and I've yet to find a conclusive answer to this question. I would say no, that's probably too late. Uh thank you, Aaron Holbach.
+
+[29:42] And then as a follow-up, follow-up, I found that measuring the height proportional to volume is an unreliable gauge of fermentation. In fact, at either maximum, the dough would be over fermented. I use the finger dent technique, and I'm now exploring ways to uh quantify this qualitative test. For those of you that don't know, the finger dent technique when you're proofing bread is if you push on the bread as it's proofing. So you've you've done the shape, and by the way, by far and away, the thing that when you're beginning in bread that you're that you're gonna probably f up is the shaping part of it.
+
+[30:13] So much of the structure of the final bread is because think about this. You do what's called bulk fermentation, it ferments, and then often you kind of you punch it down or you do whatever you're gonna do after bulk fermentation, then you divide it into whatever its final uh loaves and or buns are, and then you do the shaping, and so much of the texture and structure of the bread are done in that shaping thing, I think that's where a lot of people uh mess up. Anyway, um so I use so the finger dent technique after you've done your final shaping and you're and you're proofing it. That's my large dog being happy that uh Jen just got home from work. So uh when you push in, if you push and you tap, you push on it a little bit, and when if it pops right back at you, like if it's very elastic, it means it hasn't inflated enough to reach anywhere near the edge of the gluten's kind of extent.
+
+[31:08] If you push it in and your finger goes into it and it starts collapsing, well, you waited too long, because at that point, any kind of hit's gonna make it deflate. What you want is for it to still be going up when you put it into the oven, the oven hits it, the temperature goes up, boom, you get your oven spring, but it doesn't collapse, and then boom, you get your your perfect bread. So that's the dent test. Anyway, uh, so here's Nastasi's gonna hate this even more. Uh I intend to use a series of linear servos to emulate a finger impression while mapping the rebound volume through a 3D depth sensor.
+
+[31:42] If I'm unif If I'm able to automate calling the proof, it may be interesting to design a consumer model with more economical components. My inspiration for this project is no kitchen get quotes, no kitchen gadget can simplify calling proof for you, which is a quote from Modernist Bread 3-220. With that said, I fear that I'm innovating for innovation's sake. How would you proceed? FYI, my summer uh research plans were foiled by the pandemic, so I've turned to experiment at home.
+
+[32:07] Thank you, Aaron Hoback. I would definitely say that this is something that you should do, Aaron, for your own edification. I don't know anyone's gonna buy a proof tester. What do you guys think? Even with the sudden popularity of bread baking at home, I think this is a stretch.
+
+[32:27] There's also, I'm gonna put it to you this way, Aaron. I think this is kind of fascinating, and I'd love to know. Like, I like there's a huge uh long history in industrial um cooking of testing things that are kind of untestable and coming up with standards, and then those standards become kind of the standard. So in the pea industry, there's a thing called the tenderometer, and they they they have a very specific shaped instrument that crushes a very specific amount of peas and measures the the very specific weight that it takes to crush that, and that's turned into a tenderometer reading for peas. And a lot of things have these very strange uh kind of standards uh that are built up.
+
+[33:08] So who knows? Maybe you'll come up with the maybe you'll come up with the um with the proof standard. But I will also say I watched uh recently a video where someone did the same recipe at four different proofs, under, just right, or under, a little bit under, just right, and like a lot over to show the difference between them. And the difference in uh whether they proofed it correctly or incorrectly is not as dramatic as you might think. But it's instructive to go look at their videos to see what the effect of proof is on bread.
+
+[33:37] Okay. Uh Brian Yurko writes in, hey, hope you're well. Uh had a question about vacuum pumps. Uh any suggestions on what Nastas is like, uh geez, vacuum pumps. Uh any suggestions on what to do to get a seized pump going again.
+
+[33:53] And just because I know Dave likes the details, it's a Bush R5RB0021C. Um with an elect uh electric motor uh all inside of an ultra source ultravac 250. Uh Brian, so most likely what is happening. Luckily for you, the Bush pumps are well, unluckily for you, bush pumps are fantastically expensive. Luckily for you, they're also completely rebuildable.
+
+[34:17] The odds that there's something wrong with the electric motor are probably zero. Those motors are a beast. Almost certainly, what has happened, and by the way, you can go online uh and if you look up the R series Bush pumps, there's a complete rebuild guide online that's available for them. Um let me see if I can get you the title for it. Uh the rebuild guide is titled Maintenance and Repair Matal uh uh Manual, R5 series, and the things all there and it complete down to like how to get the taper pins out without damaging them.
+
+[34:50] It's very good document. Undoubtedly, what has happened is this inside of a an oil-based uh vacuum pump, there is a spinning wheel, uh like an eccentric spinning wheel. On that spinning wheel is a vein that it pops up and it's spring-based. And that vein, I think they're carbon, I'm not sure. That vein, I forget exactly what they're made out of.
+
+[35:11] That vein pushes up against the outside of uh of the pump and sweeps through the oil and acts like a highly scoop, going back to the 70s. Acts like a high-lye scoop and scoops the air out from the low pressure area through the oil and out the high pressure area. And if you shatter one of those veins, it'll seize the pump right up. Most likely you have a thrown or shattered or stuck vein. So you need to drain the pump, you know, get rid of the oil.
+
+[35:39] That oil is ruined, clean all that stuff out, and either repair or fix the veins, which is a very small price to pay compared to the price of that bush vacuum pump. Was that a blessedly short enough answer for you, Nastasia? Yes. All right. Uh Rachel Meyer wrote in, and I don't have an answer for this one, but more of a throwing it out there.
+
+[35:58] Maybe uh maybe we have in the listening uh audience a pectin expert, maybe one of the people from CP Kelco, because I don't know that I still have our contacts at CP Celco. Piper Christianson, uh, who used to work with us, his family is part of CP Celco, but he doesn't talk to us anymore. Now we don't we still talk to him, he doesn't he doesn't talk to us anymore, right? Right, right, Sas? Yeah.
+
+[36:20] But anyway, he's got the Celco contacts. This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks, focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. So I got my France box, and one of the things in it was the lavender blackberry rhubarb jam from V Smiley. So what I recommend you do with this, bread it on toast. And for toast, if you got the bend to table uh essentials box, in that box, you may find a main grains red fife wheat flour, and you can make a delicious, very full-flavored whole wheat bread from the from the main grains red fife.
+
+[36:58] I will say this if you're not used to baking with whole grains, realize that you're gonna need to have a uh a much higher hydration ratio. It's gonna take more water than normal. I would let it ferment for a relatively long time so that everything gets absorbed, and it's gonna feel a little bit different in your hand. If you want great flavor but want a more traditional kind of fluffy loaf, and you're not used to baking with whole grains, it's okay to mix that with uh 5050 that flour and either a bread flour or even an AP flour, and then you can do what's closer to a uh uh a Jim Leahy uh no need uh a bread kind of a recipe. And then when we had stuff left over, we toasted it, and guess what?
+
+[37:37] We spread on it the V Smiley lavender blackberry rhubarb jam from the Bend a Table box. So that's what I would do. Go to BentaTable.com to start your monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend a Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN, which stands for Heritage Radio Networks programming. Um it's Rachel Meyer from Shoots and Roots.
+
+[38:03] By the way, Shoots and Roots is a uh bitters business that was formed by uh three uh PhD botanists uh women. I I think the only one on them I really know is Rachel, but it's kind of a cool concept company. They make interesting bitters with uh, you know, very kind of non standard botanical flavors like pine forest and whatnot. It's Rachel Meyer from Shoots and Roots. I accidentally made a jello shop by mixing 350 milliliters of Everclear with a whole barbecued orange through muddling.
+
+[38:33] And the jello that it produced is delicious. Would you be willing to work with me on making this a thing? The chemistry, uh, average pectin per orange and presentation, etc., etc. Uh, too good to pass up on this grilling season. So, what has happened, pectin, which is the setting uh uh thing that's in oranges, is um not soluble in highly alcoholic uh mediums.
+
+[38:53] So you've gotten this pectin, you've muddled it, and then because of the alcohol, for some reason you've got the set just right such that it sets up in the um in the glass. I don't know how to reproduce that because pectin is, as they say in French, fiddly. So, like it's real fiddly. So, like I I would say I'm gonna pass this off. Hopefully, someone else in the listening crew has a way to kind of make this more uh predictable.
+
+[39:22] Uh, you know, some way to measure it or some way to bulletproof uh the recipe such that it always works. But um, you know, pectin destabilization and alcohol is something that you know obviously I've known about for many years and have used in, for instance, in the book Liquid Intelligence, I use for doing auto Houstinos, but I've never tried to actually create a gel with it on a time after time basis. But hopefully, someone in the audience uh knows something about it. Um we actually we had somebody send in a voicemail out. I you want do you wanna try this question?
+
+[39:56] When I play this, there's a chance that you're gonna hear it at some sort of weird speed. Just let's see if we could roll with it. What's up, Dave, Nastasia, Matt, and any other road crew? This is Paul from Seattle, longtime listener. I've noticed the rage barometer has gone down on the show lately.
+
+[40:13] So I'm calling in with some questions about things you hate, uh, mainly cold brew coffee. I recently bought a spinzole. Right now, cold brew is my only substitute for not having AC, as the apartment that I'm quarantined in, is slowly warming up this summer. And I'm also looking to make some low-quality individuals' versions of some of the coffee drinks from Liquid Intelligence. I know that you and Paul Adams have argued a lot about cold brew.
+
+[40:39] I remember from a back episode you said your current like current cold brew process is slightly different from what's in the spinzall recipe book. I was just wondering what your current cold brew process is right now. Also, in case you and Nastasia are running out of things to fight about, bonus question. How do you partially clarify the preserved lemon juice for the Corsair? Do you undercut the enzyme amounts or do you run it for less time or what?
+
+[41:03] Thanks everyone. Be safe. Well, Paul increased my rage meter just by by having that, like Nastassi couldn't even let me listen to the question. I didn't even hear it. I thought you were going to be a good one.
+
+[41:13] Oh, you couldn't hear it. Oh weird. Oh, that makes more sense. Yeah. So Nastasi's like talking to me in the middle of the question.
+
+[41:23] And I'm like, Nastasi, what the hell? I'm trying to listen to the guy talk. Yeah, that's weird. So weird that you could. Okay, well.
+
+[41:29] Did you hear it, John? Yeah, I'm not sure. Okay. So I thought you're just going to be able to do that. You don't get to hear that one, Nastasia.
+
+[41:37] Well, you wouldn't have liked it anyway. But I was like, I was like, I was like, what the hell is she doing? The guy's like, you don't have enough rage anymore. And like literally in the middle of him saying I don't have enough rage anymore. Nastasi is sitting there, like just like talking over him like he's not talking.
+
+[41:50] And I'm like, what the hell? His plan worked perfectly. We didn't know exactly what would happen, but he did establish rage. Even for Nastasia, that was hardcore. I mean, I'm I you didn't know you did it.
+
+[42:03] You didn't know you did it, which makes it a little bit different. But I was like, whoa, dude. Whoa. Um. So uh on cold brew, uh, look, here's the here's the here's the what I do now.
+
+[42:15] I forget what I did in the in the in the recipe manual, but really with the cold brew, it's all about forcing the liquid through the product under pressure, right? So, like if I was going to build my own cold brew machine, what I would do is uh take a tube, a high pressure tube, and put the water in at the top and force it at a high pressure, uh almost like espresso uh style through the through the puck and then over and over and over again. And that's kind of what you're doing when you're doing cold brew in the spinzole, is you're putting the cold brew in, it's going in the tubes, it's getting fed into the into the spinzall uh rotor, getting forced out to down to the bottom, being held there under pressure, and then getting forced up by the weight of the new liquid coming in, and it's cycling out uh cold brew. Uh and so you know, if I was ever going to build a cold brew machine, it would be built on uh kind of a pressure, a pressure situation. Um but yeah, I don't like cold brew.
+
+[43:22] I just don't like it. It's not that I don't want you to like it, it's just I don't I don't like it. Do you like it, John? Alright. What was the other part of the question?
+
+[43:32] What's the other part of the question, man? I forget what the biggest is. Oh clarification. Oh, not luminicello, yeah, uh preserved lemons. So the trick with the preserved lemons, uh run it, run your stuff continuously and don't use first of all, there's so much we're blending the liquid and the pith and everything.
+
+[43:48] So just if you use just the normal amount of SPL, it's not enough to fully clarify it because there's just so much pectin and garbage in it that it's not going to clarify anyway. So just don't let it fully clarify. So you're gonna run it continuous and you're gonna do it. Don't use um, don't use wine finding agents, just use SPL and let it stay cloudy. Uh because you're you're you don't have a lot of um in the corsair, which is uh preserved lemon, uh Moroccan preserved lemon, um, simple syrup, lime juice, uh tequila, and hot stuff of your choice.
+
+[44:25] Um you don't have that much lime juice in there, and so you really want there to still be some body in that lemon juice to give it a nice kind of uh shaking texture. Good enough answer. I don't know if I answered that. All right. Speaking of lemons, speaking of lemons, I'll get back to Matt Matthias Matthias's uh uh question.
+
+[44:46] Uh Nastasia, your mom wrote in uh answers for the for the lemon person. You want to you want to tell them? I don't have it. So I have to read your answers from your mom. Your mom, your mom gave you answers, said that you can attribute them to your dad, and then sent them to you, and then you emailed them to me, and yet I have to read them.
+
+[45:07] I don't have them in front of me, I'd have to dig it. And it was a text, so I'd have to look right. Just read it. All right, don't water the tree. Uh wait, don't water the tree only the bottom of the trunk.
+
+[45:19] Remove all the leaves from the bottom of the trunk so it will be like a topiary, fruit is on top, like a basket filled with fruit. Shake the tree to get rid of bugs. Really? Shake a tree to get rid of how big is this tree? Pick lemon.
+
+[45:31] My mom is very strong. It's not the tree. I believe that. Yeah, yeah. So you're like, it's not the tree.
+
+[45:36] She's like an al-she's like an almond harvesting machine. She we're like, you ever seen those almond harvesting machines? They're like it's like a skid steer, and you drive it up to the tree, and this arm comes out and it's like, I told you to drop the romance. And the almonds hit the ground. Yeah.
+
+[45:54] Now that's how I'm gonna picture your mom. The almonds hit the ground. And I think some of the almond shakers also have like giant nets that they can put out. Anyway, um shake the tree to get rid of bugs, but only if you're only if you're only if you're low. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:13] If you're if you're if you're Nastasia's mom's strength, you can shake the tree to get rid of bugs. She's like, I chewed ice when I burned you. And I was like, all right. Yeah, yeah. First of all, she's not even, it's not like she's shaking them out.
+
+[46:25] She's just shaking the tree so hard that the bugs are like, the hell with this. The hell with this. Yeah. Four. Pick the lemons in the cool of the morning.
+
+[46:35] I feel like this is like an advice that could be used. It sounds like a 60s song, does it not? Pick the lemons in the cool of the morning. Yeah. We also think that she's trolling us on Instagram.
+
+[46:45] Yeah, yeah, she is. Nastasia's mom, right? Has like a garden and she lives in uh they're still in Covina? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[46:52] So they're in Covina, which you know has like sunlight and whatnot, like, and they have a garden, they're growing stuff. So she's like, everyone should get out and garden. You're like, hey, thanks, Nastasia's mom. So what am I gonna my bedroom faces a brick wall in New York? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:06] Like, like my windowsill gets like, you know, half hour of sunlight a day. And it's not even direct. You know what I mean? I'm on the fourth floor of a 20-story building. Anyway, um, you know, the the the shade I get is from like, you know, the trucks outside, you know, the very anyway.
+
+[47:23] Um pick the lemons in the cool of the morning. Using clippers to cut a small amount of stem with the lemon. That now you're too lazy to do that stuff. You're a you're a ripper. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:35] Oh, twist. Well, at least you're nice. Twist and pull. Speaking of the big thing. But we have to try the lemon chair.
+
+[47:40] I got it. So. How is it? You're gonna send me some. I don't want to know.
+
+[47:45] No, no, I'm waiting for you to try it. All right. And remove any yellow or discolored leaves daily. Speaking of picking, let me get to let me get to uh let me get to this uh real quick. Who who wrote it in?
+
+[47:57] Someone wrote it in something about ah, Andy Shipman wrote in. Hey Dave, what would you do with 20 pounds of sour cherries? For the first year I harvested, I made jam. The second year I made wine. Uh uh, it had a low ABV and too acidic to drink straight up.
+
+[48:11] Yeah, that makes sense. I used it as a mixer, mixer for a year. Last year I soaked them in brandy for a couple of months and had great cherry brandy for late summer cocktails. Going to pick next weekend. Have any thoughts?
+
+[48:21] I don't have a spinzall. Well, first thing you should do, uh, Shipman is go buy yourself a spinzall. I mean they're cheap now. I mean, come on, please. Uh, second is uh we should go pick uh cherries.
+
+[48:33] Uh like I'm gonna go up with my um, I'm gonna go up with my sister and my brother-in-law, who are both positive when they have the cherries at Fishkill Farms, because this will be the first year ever that I can pick cherries and not die. You want to do it? You told me I couldn't. Well, you can just have to stay six feet away from me. Why?
+
+[48:52] I don't care if I get it. All right, and you're not gonna visit anyone who's at risk? Alright, fine, whatever, man. Whatever. But anyway, we should totally do it.
+
+[49:02] Here's some things you should do. You should go look at Pie Marches on and follow any of uh Monroe's recipes on cherry pie. How did you not make cherry pie in all of these things? You talked about cherries and not make cherry pie. That's crazy.
+
+[49:14] John, is that crazy? Yeah, crazy. Also, when you're making brandy cherries, may I suggest that this makes an excellent gift for people? Here's something I've always wanted to test and I've never done. Get yourself some pectin methyl esterase, which is the pectin strengthening enzyme.
+
+[49:34] Add a little bit of calcium chloride and a little bit of uh pectin methylesterase, do a pre-soak uh in that to try to strengthen the pectin in the cherry so that they don't get soft, right? Now I'm I'm not which is I believe how they actually also do it for the fake the faky maraschino cherry ones. Uh, you don't want that much, but it would be nice to keep them firmer than they are when they're brandied normally, and then you want to get the the sugar level up slowly over time in your cherries so that they don't shrink. Look up any one of the like the the great guides on this because you don't want them to shrink, and then this makes the perfect gift for anyone who likes cocktails. If you make so Toby Cicchini, uh, you know, uh, you know, one of the uh contenders and an absolute gives him this as the as the creator of of the Cosmo uh and you know from Long Island Bar, writer for the New York Times, etc.
+
+[50:24] etc. Uh Toby uh has a sour cherry tree, and he takes and makes them all into uh brandy cherry cherries, which he then gives out as gifts. And what's gonna happen is is that over time, every year people will be like, oh, I can't wait. Shipman's gonna give me his his brandy cherries again this year. I can't wait.
+
+[50:45] And then one year someone's gonna tick you off. You're gonna have a sign of the cross against somebody, right, Sas? And then, and then that person's not gonna get the cherries, and you're not gonna have to say to them, you're not gonna have to say, yo, Billy, I'm pissed at you, right? That's not how it's gonna work because there's gonna be like, yo, Andy didn't give me my cherries this year. What did I do?
+
+[51:05] And so you're gonna be able to use these cherries as a lever against your uh friends, enemies, and acquaintances for the rest of your life. What do you think, Nastasia? I love that. You know what I think about enemies and signs of crosses. Yeah, so I have a new one.
+
+[51:18] I'm reading uh this book. So we've explained sign of the cross. Nastasi's a big fan of sign of the cross. It always works. Oh, yeah, we could talk about it again later.
+
+[51:26] We don't have time to fully get into the sign of the sign of the cross. And we don't even have time to get into sealing sealing your enemies in cubes and throwing them into the deepest holes of the year. We should uh we should definitely devote the appropriate amount of time to the classic. It's already 1256. Yeah, hold up, hold up, hold up.
+
+[51:41] Uh wait, wait, oh second. Jessica Harris. Yeah, hold on, wait. I I can actually finish this. I've only got two quick questions.
+
+[51:47] Let me just get them. Okay. From uh Matthias Sexton via Instagram or Matthias. Uh, I've been reading through modernist cuisine books over the lockdown period, and after reading the section on reductions, I found the last paragraph about reverse osmosis. I did a little further reading on this and found that the fruit juice industry has been leveraging forward osmosis to concentrate fruit juices.
+
+[52:04] Also think uh maple syrup has been doing it. I found some of the filters are relatively affordable. Um I was wondering if you had any information regarding this as I've been thinking of recreating this for myself. I don't, but uh showing on the on the chat room has some good videos to point to, and this is something that DIY people do do initial concentration, not the full concentration, because it's hard to get uh very, very, very um high concentrations using uh RO just because the pressures aren't high enough. But there's a lot of stuff out there.
+
+[52:33] Look at what the maple syrup people are doing. Um, and um there's DIY people out there, and you can follow the videos, and hopefully, someone in the chat room will send me some more information on it. Josh writes in on uh liquid nitrogen. I'm trying to get started working with liquid nitrogen, specifically nitrile muddling. I've been watching some old YouTube videos uh with Dave at Booker Index.
+
+[52:53] He has a small handheld container that he uses to transfer the liquid nitrogen from the large tank to the shaker or glass. What is it? Where can I buy one? Almost looks like a small handheld thermos. Well, Josh, you know what it is?
+
+[53:04] Small hand held thermos, but tell him what you can't do with it. Ding ding ding. You cannot close it. That's how that German dude blew himself up, almost killed himself, almost wiped out his girlfriend too. So anytime you're gonna have a liquid nitrogen thermos, two things.
+
+[53:18] Don't get one with glass in it, get one that's all stainless steel. We use Stanley's at the bar. Uh and the black ones that we used to use at the bar were Stanley's. Uh stainless steel Stanley's with you know black painted outsides. Uh the misfits sticker that uh Tataguchi put onto ours is optional but encouraged.
+
+[53:36] Uh and then they last almost uh forever. So don't seal it. Well, as soon as you get it, take the lid and throw the lid away. This way, no one can seal it because you've thrown the lid away. So whenever we get one into the bar, we take the top lid and throw it away and the bottom lid and throw it away, and that's it.
+
+[53:54] And if you need to cap it, you can get like a styro plug and like like let it rest over the top, but don't, don't, don't plug them. And remember, you don't want to let them go all the way dry before you refill them because once they warm up, you have to spend all of that energy in the form of boiling liquid nitrogen to re chill it down to liquid nitrogen temperature. So try to keep it, uh try to keep it nice uh and and full. And uh, you know, if it should break, you'll notice the outside frosts over. That's how you tell if a doer is broken or if your thermos is broken.
+
+[54:26] All right. So, so and we're actually gonna almost make it because we started a little bit late because of technical issues, so here we go. You ready for us actually to do this? To be done? Yes.
+
+[54:36] All right. Classics in the field, yeah. All right, we got Jessica Harris. Dr. Jessica Harris has been a long time friend of uh, well, you know, I've known her for a long time personally, but of the museum, and is currently the head curator, the lead curator of the show that has was supposed to open in March.
+
+[54:56] And we all know how opening things in March uh happened of um African/slash American Making America's Table, which is an explor making the nation's table, which is uh an exploration. John, of course, you know, uh one of the creators of the uh one one of the museum staff uh people working on it, so it has my back on the corrections of uh things like that. Uh is an exploration of the um the contributions, the kind of widespread systemic and largely unknown contributions of uh African Americans to American foodways um in general. So things that you might not might not know. Um you want to give a couple, John?
+
+[55:39] Yeah, Alfred Crowell in 1896 or 1897 was the second African American in Pittsburgh to receive a patent, and he patented like the clicker lever mechanism on the side of ice cream scoops, which is kind of my favorite thing to point out. I know Dave, your favorite example is Frederick McKin and shipping foods around the case. The guy invented the reefer truck. The guy invented the reefer truck, and his company, right? The company that he founded, he co-founded, he was the inventor, and then there was a money guy, and they co-founded this company.
+
+[56:14] And they still make all of the they still make all of the the reefer trucks and the reefer boxcars. So if you've ever had a piece of food that was brought to you, it was most likely brought to you by a truck, even if it got on a rail or got on a boat, it was most likely went from the from it's to the final place to the market in a truck. That truck was refrigerated and that refrigerator is a direct result of his work. So like the entire food system as we know it would not make sense without him. Anyway um built the very first kind of uh portable portable refrigerator compressor um we tried to get one and the company wouldn't give it to us I was so pissed they had one that they had kind of had decommissioned it looked like we were going to get it for the exhibit and then for some reason they just crapped out did they ever give us a reason why they cracked out on that?
+
+[57:09] No they just kept kind of saying it was too big to move and yeah. They instead recommended we get little toy truck replicas. Oh yeah Joey yeah I really want to go to a museum so I can see a toy truck replica right the the toy truck even Nastasia wanted to start the mashbox cars uh museum when you were a kid did you collect mashbox cars or were you more of a hot wheels both both I felt like when I was growing up you had to choose hot wheels or mash box anyway whatever I'm not gonna get into it. Um so anyway so Jessica Jessica Harris uh is the lead curator I've known her for a long long time and even before I knew her I I knew her work. So she she is, I would say, the kind of foremost scholar on um cooking of the African diaspora in in the United States and also Africa itself.
+
+[58:03] And I remember the first trip I ever took with her was to Senegal with also a friend of the show, Pierre Cham. And I'll tell you, if you ever get a chance to travel through Senegal with Dr. Harris, it is a real treat. But well before I knew her, when I was first researching foods from Africa, there was very, very, very, very little written about it. And most of the stuff that was written about it was written from a very kind of white and European perspective.
+
+[58:32] And so she wrote, she had been writing books. I guess she started writing books at the late 80s, early 90s. But I think one of her most influential uh kind of middle books was 1998, The Africa Cookbook, Taste of a Continent. And it's one of the first books I was able to find that really dealt with uh the subject of uh African food from uh I think a good perspective. So you should go uh check that out.
+
+[59:00] You should check her out, and you should check out the exhibit that she curated as soon as we are able to open that thing again. We don't have a date. Wait, I want to say one thing. Her book, My Soul Looks Back, I enjoyed because it wasn't about food, it was about like growing up, I mean uh living in the in New York in the 60s and how she was friends with James Baldwin and um Maya Angelou, and it's really cool. And she gives a playlist uh to listen to while you're reading it.
+
+[59:30] Yeah, there's a section in that book where she talks about how mean Nina Simone was to her, which is kind of funny, right? Yes. Nina Simone was so mean to her. Yes, so mean. Yes.
+
+[59:42] But anyway, Dr. Harris is a treasure. I'll get I'll give you one more story about. So, like uh Dookie Chase, a very famous New Orleans restaurant. Um, Nastasia had organized for them to come do the um the Mofad's gala.
+
+[59:57] If you don't know who they are, like get out from under your rock and look up who they are. Uh, but they for years, forever, they've never done anything outside of their restaurant. They've never needed to. They've been very kind of New Orleans focused, and even within New Orleans, within kind of their restaurant and the community that went to their restaurant. And uh, you know, the last time I went to New Orleans, uh, you know, Dr.
+
+[1:00:20] Harris called, told me I had to go talk to them about cocktails. I'm like, I don't really know why they want to hear from me, but I'll do it because you told me to. And then when I got there, I found out she had called them and told them that they needed to talk to me. And it's just the kind of thing, it's like, well, why'd you do it? She's like, well, Dr.
+
+[1:00:34] Harris said to, and that was all you needed to say because people just don't say no to her. You know what I mean? Uh, but it was, you know, she wanted them to come uh to do something at the gala, and they were actually gonna come up to New York and I hope make shrimp clements so, which is my favorite thing that I had when I was there. They still, when we get back to whatever, they I think they still will. Yeah, but just to show how much weight, she's the kind of person that could just tell someone of that stature, please do it, and they will do it.
+
+[1:01:02] So she is someone who uh she is someone whose word can be trusted. Uh and that's it. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:01:17] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:01:34] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:01:55] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at BenttoTable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and H R N gets $10. This week on Meet and Three, we're turning our attention to how the global pandemic is impacting our mental health and how food brings us comfort during these times.
+
+[0:30] I've never understood why people have said I'm brave for solo dining. Food can kind of be a source of soul as or it can be uh a source of excitement or like an activity to keep you busy. When there's a crisis, typically the restaurant industry is one of the industries that springs into action in terms of being like, well, come in, we'll take care of you. Tune in to Meet and Three to learn more about the psychological effects of COVID 19. Available wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:17] Right on the Long Island Sound. How you doing, Nastasia? Good. We got John from Booker and Dax chilling in the uh what do you call that? Murray Hill?
+
+[1:25] What is it? Upper what is it? Yep. Murray Hill. Who's this Murray guy?
+
+[1:30] I have that's actually a great question. I've never thought of looking that up in the three years I've been here. Yeah, nice. Well, at least you're curious about things. Matt, in the book, and you're in your Brooklyn booth.
+
+[1:40] I'm in my Brooklyn booth. Nice. And we have semi live. I mean, like, I guess, as live as he ever is. My man Aaron Polski, the poll cat from Los Angeles.
+
+[1:52] How are you doing? What up? Well, uh, what do you mean, as alive as I ever am? Well scene. I mean, you know, apparently I've been told that okay.
+
+[2:01] So Aaron was supposed to be on the show today because he was going to make a he was going to go to his uh uh flavor house of choice Givodin. Uh pronounce that for me, John. Say it. Givodin. Givodin.
+
+[2:17] Givodin? Yeah. Anyway, yeah. But like uh, or how would you pronounce it in like New York? I can't even wrap my mind around how you'd pronounce it as just like a straight up old school New Yorker.
+
+[2:29] Do it, Aaron for it. What would you get? I mean, I say Givadon, but I can I can be like, uh, Gividon. I think it's just adding the A to the beginning. Hey, Givadan, like that, like like that, like how would you do it?
+
+[2:41] Yeah, I mean, I would I guess I gotta be like Andrew Cuomo. Uh okay, Miss. Go buy some sausage and peppers and then go to Givedon. Tell me how to tell give it to me. I uh well, it's gotta be in the context of the sentence.
+
+[2:58] So I go to the bodega and I buy a vial of Givodon. There you go. All right, all right, all right, all right, I'll take it. Now listen, Aaron Polski, the poll cat, was supposed to have g sent us, and Nastasia assures me that this is okay to talk about, but he was supposed to have sent us a uh sample of uh the gin and juice mix uh that you know he's been working on, but I've been told that instead the majority of his time has been spent one going to protest, which we all support, right? We all support this going to protest.
+
+[3:32] And second, trying to work around the new C D CDC guidelines. Now, Nastasia, which C D CDC guidelines are we talking about? The uh well, Aaron and I talked a bunch over text, and um we received uh a bunch of people have sent me the new sex appropriate CDC guidelines, and Aaron also got them. We need a euphemism for the family show, so we're gonna call this intimate contact, intimate contact, intimate contact. Oh, that's much better.
+
+[4:05] That's much better for me too. No, it's a family show and has been for years. No changing now. Intimate contact. Come on, please.
+
+[4:13] Okay, hey kids, you know how you were born. Oh my god, it's not appropriate. All right. For any children, for any children out there, you can you can you parents just stop this recording and go to like this is not like old school where like you know, whatever his name is, Vince Vaughn gets to say earmuffs and pretend that nobody hears. Why not?
+
+[4:40] Like it's just not what we do. This is not what we do. My dad listened to Howard Stern every morning, and if I were in the room, it was like that's on me. So I don't care what you and your dad did. This is the excuse that Booker gives all the time.
+
+[4:56] Well, my friend's parents let him jump off the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't give a rat's ass what his parents do. Go live with your friend's parents, right? It's like, listen, don't compare yourself to other people. Do what you do, right?
+
+[5:08] What we do is family show. Now we can go innuendo real deep. As we know. Anyway, Nastasia and and Aaron, instead of making gin and juice, have been worried about how to minimize. Apparently, Nastasia read it to me this morning.
+
+[5:28] There's a hilarious CDC document about uh that goes into it's like weird, it's crazy. It's crazy. Did you know that your best partner is yourself, Nastasia, according to the CDC? I I do know that, yeah. I've known it for uh quite a while now.
+
+[5:48] I I feel uncomfortable because I never saw the pre-pandemic CDC guidelines for my private life. And so I don't know what I've been doing wrong this whole time. Well that's probably everything. Yeah. These guidelines are specific to COVID and and uh you know, you have a wave, so it doesn't they don't apply to you.
+
+[6:06] So that's great. Yeah, this is why we're not involved with this stuff, thankfully for us. But uh, you know, poll cat and Nastasia, not with each other, I don't want to hear anything about it, like have been like figuring out these rules, and they're quite they're they're quite ex a explicit and b kind of weird, right, Stuzz? Yeah, I read them to Dave this morning and uh I thought she was trolling me. I thought she was trolling me because they're so crazy.
+
+[6:31] That's what I said earlier to Aaron. I said somebody told me about these and I thought they were trolling me. Yeah, because I mean it wouldn't be the first time our government has said some crazy some crazy stuff, but my favorite is listen, if you first of all, the words they use are so funny. If you need to have this kind of contact with three or more people, maybe wait, maybe wait. Just maybe wait.
+
+[6:54] Maybe wait, right? I mean, I like their choice of wording. There are a couple things. First of all, they they definitely use it to speak about consent, which is which is you know, a good thing to just get out there to the general public is health guidelines have sex only with consenting partners. Just they just put that in there.
+
+[7:13] That's I wouldn't I don't think that's COVID related but there's uh pick larger more open and well ventilated spaces which I mean definitely open to interpretation there yeah that's so these are they're they're outside fetishists I mean what spaces are we talking about but then Nastasia told me that on the exact opposite side like they were very like they're like people from the Deuce from that show the Deuce they want you to like be sealed in a closet in a separate room from the other person well a wall between you yeah yeah yeah yeah and Aaron wait true or false nostasi and we'll leave it at this the literally the center the Center for Disease Control said why not get a little bit kinky yeah right Aaron uh I do I think that was the New York City Health Department Oh what are you doing in New York City Health you don't have any New York City problems you're LA you gotta read the LA COVID totally different virus just I have the LA COVID in front of me so let's they don't say get a little kinky New York says get a little kinky sausage and pep yep there's one I there's one where they define feces as poop. I think that's a DC which is also great. Wait they had to define feces as poop yeah where was it it said uh I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, this is gonna go real far south real fast. All right, go ahead. Uh I'm finding it.
+
+[8:53] I gotta do like command F and find poop. Oh no, that was New York City for all you smart smart ones out there. Uh the virus has been found in the seam, in the semen and feces, parentheses poop of people with COVID-19. Oh god. Oh my god.
+
+[9:12] It's not being single right now. Yes. Yeah. Well, uh Nastasia, may I talk about the other trolling that you've been getting? No, I probably shouldn't.
+
+[9:23] I don't know what you're talking about. The temporary, the temporary single troll. No. No, no, no, no, no. No.
+
+[9:30] Anyway, like now's a really like listen, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. This is gonna sound like it's not coming from me, but it really is. People need to stop trolling Nastasia right now. Like, seriously. Like you like Nastasia can't grow anything because she lives on a salt flat, basically.
+
+[9:50] She lives on the edge of a body of salt water. When I say on the edge, she could throw a matchstick from her window into the water. So she's right on the saltwater edge. It's windy and salty, which is pretty because she's got a view of New York City and all that stuff, but you can't grow scoot doodly over there in normal stuff. So don't talk to her.
+
+[10:10] And that's her favorite thing to do. And she doesn't have her New York City plaque, she's not in New York. And she can't like meet up with anyone. So just stop trolling her. She has enough problems right now.
+
+[10:18] Am I right or wrong? Yes. I mean, I'm not saying this like it's not a pity party. I'm just saying like I love anyone that trolls Nastasia during normal times, but maybe right now is not the time to troll her about these things. No.
+
+[10:30] Thanks. Thanks. But trolling Nastasia gives people a sense of normalcy, Dave. But you would be surprised who's trolling me. So Yeah, you'd be you'd be shocked.
+
+[10:41] We're trolling with what? No, we're not getting into it. I can't get into it. Let me just say that it is a deep, strong troll. It's like it's like I'll text you after the farmer's market.
+
+[10:55] This troll, this troll's got like carbide lamps. They're set up for days. They can stay under. Anyway, so the um, uh wait, I have to say to Matt, uh, Mike, you know, uh Rebecca's fiance says the volume is super low on cooking issues. He has his volume all the way up and can barely hear a part of it right now?
+
+[11:16] Uh uh, yeah, I sorted that out. Oh, you did? Okay. Uh Rebecca and Mike, text me if it sounds better, please. Rebecca is the boondoggler, by the way.
+
+[11:25] For those of you that don't remember, Rebecca is the boondoggler. Uh, ruler of the sub party, and uh queen of of Booker and Dax PR situations. Is that true or false? You're not supposed to talk about sub parties, Dave. I mean I'm not supposed to talk about sub parties.
+
+[11:44] Especially in LA, so that we can continue throwing parties in LA. Hey, listen, Nastasia, part of being good now is admitting when you used to suck. Okay. Right? The last party we threw was not a sub party.
+
+[11:56] Last party we threw was awesome. Yeah. Yeah, Danny Triho's donuts there, your boy Machete. Yeah. Aaron, you had fun, right?
+
+[12:03] You were there for like 10 minutes. Oh, uh yeah, the one in the hills. Or the one that like Harry Houdini's house. Yeah. Yeah, it was great.
+
+[12:10] Houdinied out of there. Yeah, yeah. Which also they don't talk about the Houdini in the New York City sex guidelines. Wait, what do you mean? Is that like an actual term that people use?
+
+[12:21] My god. It'd be easier if I showed you. No, tell us. No, no, please. Oh my god.
+
+[12:27] And children were ours. Oh, listen, let's we're pulling back, we're pulling out, we're in the nose dive. Oh, let's pull out. Tell that story when we got back from London. Good man, I guess got that.
+
+[12:41] Yeah, what? When we got back from London, we got to the New York airport and the baggage flame handler, the difference between what London people say to you about your bags and then what New York City people say when your bags are coming down. Is this the time I had to climb on the thing to undo it? I don't even remember. All I know is is that like, you know, when you're for any of you that have had the I love New York, but like for any of you who had the displeasure of flying into John F.
+
+[13:07] Kennedy International Airport, right? Or you know, LaGuardia, and you show up, you've been through hell, right? Because you've just been in an airport, you've gone through security 8,000 times, you're going through MLC for the inside. Right. You've gone through your passport check, which they've made better now, especially if you're global entry, but back in the day, you're like your good solid hour and change just standing in that dang line.
+
+[13:29] Am I wrong about this, people? To get back into the country at JFK after you've walked. I don't know, I didn't even know that the airport was that big. I think that they it's literally sometimes a 20-minute walk from your airplane to where your passport thing, 20-minute walk, right? After you've been on a flight for God knows how long.
+
+[13:47] When you show up, then your bags are there, and the the carousels are so old that regularly bags get stuck up at the top of the carousel and won't go down. And there's signs everywhere saying you can't fix anything, right? And then there's people who are theoretically working, but they're not doing anything. They're just sitting there, right? So Nastasia and I are like, you know, in in you know, in England, they're like, Oh, the pip to bag, oh no, nice, nice, right, nice, keep it floating.
+
+[14:12] And then you're like, we show up at JFK, and my bag, and I just want to get home. My bag is stuck. I can see my bag stuck, and a bunch of other bags are stuck, and it's mounding up. People, what are they doing? Eating sandwiches?
+
+[14:24] Nothing, right? They're doing nothing. So I jump up on the carousel, I run up the carousel and undo the bag. As soon as my feet touch that carousel, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. You know what I mean?
+
+[14:36] Like New York fashion. I'm like, oh what? Why didn't you fix my dang bag? What the hell's wrong with you? Is it gonna sit here forever?
+
+[14:42] For freaking ever? Oh. You know what I'm saying? It's like that's so New York. For those of you that have never been to New York, look, oh, oh, that's New York.
+
+[14:54] That is New York. You could like everyone. We should have them say Givadan. You just go to JFK and ask them how they say it. They say it like this.
+
+[15:00] Say Givadan, oh, oh. Come on. You know what I mean? Like that's New York. In a nutshell, if you ever need to have an interaction with someone on the street, oh, like that.
+
+[15:13] That's all you need. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Uh and it works for basically everybody. I mean, it's come on.
+
+[15:20] I think it's, you know, I think it's uh it's a universal, universal kind of New York exclamation. It's like for if you speak German, it's the New York equivalent of doch. What does that mean? Oh. Anyway.
+
+[15:41] Um, all right. Shout out uh to this is via Instagram, so Nastasia, don't get mad, but it's a shout out for Father's Day, so I have to do it early, so lest I forget. But uh happy Father's Day to uh Wes McAdams from his kids. Callie, Douglas, and Jane. Happy Father's Day.
+
+[15:58] You know what I'm gonna do for Father's Day? Nothing. You know what's even more important to me than Father's Day? Do you know what tomorrow is, people? Uh Wednesday.
+
+[16:07] No. Yeah. Any any guesses, Nastasia? Guess any guesses? Uh no.
+
+[16:11] And you're an uh no, that's not your anniversary. I don't know. It is. It is my 25th wedding anniversary tomorrow. Oh wow, nailed it.
+
+[16:19] Yeah, 25th wedding anniversary. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I don't know what I'm gonna do about it.
+
+[16:25] I'm gonna be. Unbelievably long amount of time for someone to have been married to you. Uh so true. That's so true. I think I'm gonna go to Japan Premium Beef after the show, which is open again in Manhattan, and get me some A5, uh, because uh Jen wanted some steak.
+
+[16:43] I haven't done a lot of cooking with uh with uh A5 uh beef, Wagyu beef. So I gotta go check it out and see, see what I'm gonna get. But I'll do that. I got some bread baking. I know Nastasia doesn't want to talk about the bread until later at the very end, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[16:59] But whatever. I'm baking some bread. We can talk about it. By the way, I have some questions about it later, so I'll talk about it. Uh so you guys got anything for the week before we hit these questions or no?
+
+[17:10] No, we'll get to the questions. Okay. Uh so Devin wrote back, Devin is the uh pasta troll. This is a different troll, trolling Nastasia on the flavor of pasta. Everyone knows Nastasia.
+
+[17:22] Two things. You need she loves pasta, does not like fresh pasta. What are the what are the you look you like ravioli and you like gnocchi, and is that it? Yeah. Cavitelli, you don't like?
+
+[17:35] Uh no. But some pattaccini, like fresh fettuccine with like wild boar. Like you had that that has to be Oh, it has to come with wild boar. I mean, why would it not? Are you are you joking with me, Aaron?
+
+[17:44] I just you know it's quite a condition. I told you not to troll nostasia right now. A chingali. Uh is that is that the term that you guys use for the wild boar sauce? Yeah.
+
+[18:01] Yeah. Uh so you like fresh fettuccine, so you're moderating your opinion, which I appreciate. I just wasn't expecting it. Yeah, me neither. Yeah.
+
+[18:10] So in your fresh fettuccine, you like it with uh you like an egg, you like it a little yellow or no? Yeah. Okay. Well, why don't you like fresh pasta? It just it I think that most pasta is great dried.
+
+[18:25] Um, and I don't like the way that fresh pasta sits in your stomach. It's like a ball of just dough, you know, it's just like dough on dough on dough. I just really don't like it. What are the other doughs that are in your stomach? Um, oh, I don't know.
+
+[18:39] Well, doesn't it feel like a ball of dough once you eat fresh pasta? Um I mean, not if you form it. Are you just eating the dough? Is that the issue? She's like, it's basically a dumpling in flat form.
+
+[18:54] Yeah. I don't know. It's not look. I will say this. I understand where Nastasia is coming from from this perspective.
+
+[19:03] I think when you want that kind of specific texture of fresh pasta, I like the thing is is that real like pasta pasta is gonna like has more tooth to it than any homemade pasta could hope to have because they make it under tremendous pressure with Durham wheats that are low in gluten, right? They use they use uh they use a specific grind style, like you know, the semolinas, which you know hydrate the way you want to for pasta. They have a mixing technique and pushing it through a dye to get the pressure to get the dough to cohere. They're using a very high protein flour with a low gluten content, the Durham wheat. So they have all of these things going for them that you can't really mimic the pressure.
+
+[19:51] I've wanted to get one of those biggely presses for a long time to see whether I can make real stuff, but I I don't have one and I don't have an arco balano or any of these things. But um, so like you can't make easily the raw product, even whether it's fresh or dried, you can't make that same dough using the stuff that you have at home, right? Whether or not that stuff needs to be completely dried to get the eventual texture that Nastasia likes, that I don't know. I've never run the test. Maybe Nastasia has, I don't know.
+
+[20:19] But uh, I mean, I'm sure that's probably part of it, right, Stas? Yeah. And also how much of it is you just don't like people making things and talking to you about it. No, that's not it. I just I really like the toothsomeness of a dry pasta.
+
+[20:34] You don't get that with fresh pasta. Um I have a bunch of Durham here. I might try to make some semolina. I'll sit, I'll try to like do stuff that only passes through a 50 and throw away the stuff through a 60 and see if I can. I'll reject the 40s, take the 50 to 60s, see whether I can get a decent.
+
+[20:53] But why? The Nastasia's just gonna sit there and like she's gonna like Nastasia's hate face can make it all the way from Stanford to the lower east side. Like I can, I will be feeling it on my back all the way over here. And she'll she'll call me and then just not say anything. And then she'll call me like an hour later and yell at me about an unrelated thing, but it'll be about the pasta.
+
+[21:14] So I'm probably not gonna do that. Our morning started with yelling. For no reason, by the way. Not getting no getting into it. You brought it up anyway.
+
+[21:23] But I'll tell you another thing that's good to have high protein, low gluten that I am going to be working on. Uh is uh flour tortillas. I did my first flour tortilla with a very soft wheat, didn't have enough protein, and the taste was amazing. I used Frederick wheat. Um the taste was amazing, but it didn't have quite enough structure.
+
+[21:41] So I'm waiting for my Sonorin White wheat, which is a high protein but low gluten flour that was the original wheat that uh hundreds of years ago that the flour tortilla in the Snorin Desert was based around, and Hayden Flour Mills sells it. Uh and I'm getting some shipped to me. I was supposed to I was already supposed to have tested it and told you guys about it, but uh there was a problem in the shipping. They ship me this regular chump soft white wheat. I got 50 pounds of soft white wheat in my pantry.
+
+[22:08] I can't use any more soft white wheat. Nastasi doesn't want to talk about it. But anyway, so this is a long way to get to Devin's question. Remember, he was the pasta troll uh talking to Nastasia about how pasta doesn't have flavor. And he said, Thanks for answering my previous pasta question.
+
+[22:26] It was a ridiculous question. I was thinking about how to highlight the flavor of pasta in addition, couldn't really come up with anything myself. But I guess it's true if you eat pasta alone or uh add just flavor enhancers like salt, butter, and parmesan, the pasta flavor would be the highlight. Please accept my hum humblest, please accept my humblest apologies from this beta. Apology accepted, Nastasia, or no?
+
+[22:48] Yeah? Accepted. Okay. You sound you have trepidation about accepting this apology. Fine, just go on.
+
+[22:58] All right. Can we just can we dissect this question for a second? Okay. Not even at the same time. He said when you eat pasta alone, is does he mean like you are your safest pasta eating partner?
+
+[23:13] Oh, Aaron, you know, it's always nice having Aaron around. I have to say. I'll take that. I'll take that at face value. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:21] Yeah. Nastasi, what are your favorite pasta shapes? I love bucettini. That's probably my favorite one. Yeah.
+
+[23:28] Yeah. I like to select. I like rigattoni. I like mezzarigatoni. Yeah.
+
+[23:32] You don't like the pre-stranglers? I love the pre-strangler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[23:38] Uh yeah. So in my family, if you're an idiot in the in the in my stepfather's family, in the Italian Boston section, if you are an idiot, you are a macaroni with no hole. This is the insult. Because first of all, in Boston, all pasta is macaroni. It's all called macaroni.
+
+[24:00] And the sauce is called gravy. All pasta sauce is called gravy. Yeah. Of course, you know, you can make the gravy. They make a lobster gravy.
+
+[24:08] They make the meat gravy with the, and yes, this is the way they say it, brushol in the meat gravy and the sausage and the pork chops and the meatballs in the gravy with the macaroni. That's the that's the parlance you use in Boston. Anyway. So uh yeah, if you were a complete Ninkam poop, you were a macaroni with no hole. That guy's a macaroni with no hole.
+
+[24:31] I like that. Yeah, yeah. You gotta use that. So you like bucottini? You like macaroni with a hole?
+
+[24:36] Yep. Yeah. Uh okay. Here's a question from Devin, the pasta troll. Uh I'm trying to get a clean solution for making cream out of milk.
+
+[24:44] Now, before I even read your question, Devin, I don't really understand what you want, but I'm gonna go through it anyway. Cream to be whipped like cool whip. Cool whip. Aaron, what are your thoughts on cool whip? I don't think ready for this?
+
+[24:57] Yeah. I don't think I've ever had it. What? I don't think I've ever had it. Why?
+
+[25:02] You mean you've never had it frozen, you've always kept it in your fridge and never bothered trying to eat frozen cool whip out of the tub. That's what you're saying. I don't I don't think Jews eat cool whip. What? Why wouldn't they?
+
+[25:13] It's a non-dairy whip topping. It's like made for Jews. That's that's valid. I don't I don't know. I I've never had I've also never had marshmallow fluff.
+
+[25:24] That I can understand. Why? Because you can't guarantee where the gelatin comes from. It's not a kosher thing. I think it's a cultural thing.
+
+[25:32] First of all, your kosher? No. Oh. No. Aaron Polski doesn't mix dairy and meat.
+
+[25:43] That's what everybody's gonna say now. Aaron Polski never eats Oreos, only hydrox. Keeps kosher. Are there kosher Oreos? Hydrox.
+
+[25:54] It used to be Oreos were never kosher. So they invented the Hydrox cookie, which was kosher. Same company. It was in the biscuit. No, no, no, no, different people.
+
+[26:02] And then Abisco was finally like, why are we why are we doing this? Why are we so stupid? Why are we losing the market of 2% of the world's population? I mean, but like why, like okay, whatever. I'm just saying, they they hated seeing the hydrox flourish.
+
+[26:19] That's what it was. They just hated seeing the hydrox flourish. Yeah, that's a common theme through history. Oh my. Okay, so uh there are two ways to consume cool whip, Aaron.
+
+[26:32] You can either use it out of the tub in your fridge, or some people, if you you know, grew up, I guess, hard wasp like me, you also sometimes kept a tub in the freezer. Anyone else here with me? Whip. Yes. Stas, thank you.
+
+[26:50] Finally. What's it like out of the freezer? It's like firmer. It's like But it's not firm. It's firm.
+
+[26:57] It's firm. And it's cool on your mouth. So when it's hot out, cool whip from the freezer is nice. I happen to like cool whip. I also happen to like Miracle Whip.
+
+[27:07] I do not believe Miracle Whip is mayonnaise. I believe Miracle Whip tastes good. I enjoy it. I don't use it when I'm cooking, but if someone said I'm putting Miracle Whip on your sandwich, I would not punch them. What's it made?
+
+[27:23] I don't I don't know I've never had it. What's it made of? Miracle Whips and fake mayonnaise. I think it's they it's like a salad dressing. I I forget what they use instead of this.
+
+[27:29] It's some sort of compounded things. Like cool whip is fake, fake whipped cream. I love whipped cream. I also like cool whip. Back to Why do they need to make fake mayonnaise?
+
+[27:37] What is in the what's in the real stuff that that is offensive to the people? Let's look up what's in Miracle Whip. The one advantage of doing this show like this is I can just sit here and look up. And first of all, ain't no one use straight Miracle Whip as a salad dressing, which is what they which is what they say it is. Let's look at the Miracle Whip.
+
+[27:57] Uh uh surprise. Ooh, Heinz makes it. Hi, prize to the first person who uh gets me the ingredient list off of Miracle Whip. And come on, come on, come on, guys. Now you guys are reading.
+
+[28:10] Oh, I got it. Water, soybean oil, high fructose, corn syrup, vinegar, modified cornstarch, egg, salt, natural flavor, mustard flour, potassium, sorbates, spice, and dried garlic. What's it trying to be? Ranch? Well, yeah, but what the heck?
+
+[28:24] It's got egg yolks, it's got oil, water. It must be has all the stuff of mayonnaise and then a bunch of extra junk. Yeah, but six flags announced a new partnership with the Miracle Whip brand in 2009. What's happening there? It must just, it must just have.
+
+[28:44] Is it because they've added sugar to it? That's why it's not mayonnaise? But QP does that and MSG. Like, is it that there's more water in it than you're allowed to have in regular mayonnaise? Oh, it's cheaper.
+
+[28:56] It was developed as a less expensive alternative to mayonnaise in 1933, back when people were sober. You know what, you know what's killing my food budget, Aaron? It's the mayo. It's how much mayo I go through. That's what's killing me.
+
+[29:14] Um cream to be whipped like cool whip. My body doesn't do so well with stabilizers, and most store-bought heavy creams are doped. I don't know uh where you live, Devin, but you can find, for instance, Trader Joe's, and I know I've said terrible things about Trader Joe's dairy aisle, mostly that their light sour cream, the package is almost identical to their real sour cream. All sour creams are like that, too. It's ridiculous.
+
+[29:44] Do you know what? Have you ever accidentally gotten home? A million times? All the all the time. And you're like, but why?
+
+[29:51] Like, like the people who want crap, garbage, fake sour cream, really want that stuff. So just like paint it with me on colors. Put rainbows on it. Like do anything, right? Anything so that I don't accidentally pick you up.
+
+[30:06] You know what I mean? Um, there's that. Uh a lot of things are like that. There's another one at Trader Joe's. They have this, they have this thing that they call kind of guilt-free.
+
+[30:23] They have these things that are guilt-free, but the packaging is almost identical, like minor things. I don't want guilt-free because I am not guilty about the food I eat. There is nothing about the food that I eat that makes me feel guilty. Do you know what I'm saying? Am I the only one?
+
+[30:39] Did I lose all you guys? No, you're right. Go on to the question. All right. Back to cool whip.
+
+[30:45] So uh Trader Joe's uh heavy cream, uh, I believe is unstabilized. That's why we use it when we make butter. Um I haven't tried straight gelatin, but if you don't like stabilizers, but you're okay with gelatin, you can do that. You say you want to make whipped cream from milk, but is it really because you want to whip milk? If you want to whip milk, gelatin and condensed milk, because you get like a lot of um milk solids, right?
+
+[31:12] You're adding to the milk solids. The thing about cream is is the fat is whipping and making like a nice like you have you have protein in the form of milk solids that are adding to the whipping ability, and then you have uh the fat, which is actually forming the foam. So you have both, and it sets up uh nicely. You if you want to do it without the fat, right, then I guess you could use um evaporated milk and gelatin and whip it up uh, you know, and Nestle, the evil Nestle overlords. And they really are the evil.
+
+[31:44] They have a recipe up there that you could do uh with gelatin. Um but then you say uh any suggestions? I'd rather not throw money randomly to see what works, hence why I'm asking first. I would say if you can have real cream, just go get the real cream from uh without the stabilizer in it, just plain cream, like search it out because it's useful for other things like making butter, butter. Also, at some point in here, I don't remember.
+
+[32:08] You add, oh, or adding dehydrated butter or dehydrated milk to liquid milk to give it more heft to be whipped. Just buy evaporated milk. Dehydrated butter is a misnomer. I wish I wish that that person would slip on a banana peel and like you know, be laid up for a week for calling it dehydrated butter. Dehydrated butter is still a liquid fat, uh liquid or solid, depending on its temperature.
+
+[32:29] It's called ghee, right? So, like what butter powder is, which is not dehydrated butter. This is one of those lies. It's like the same way that I'd like to be trapped in a in a small room after I'd eaten very, very, very many beans with whoever came up with calling mono and diglycerides glice in the Ferran Texura's line because it's caused me untold problems. But the same thing with this dehydrated butter.
+
+[32:54] What butter powder is is ghee, right? So clarified butter, that they then take a whole boat ton of milk solids that without the water, milk solids, and keep adding milk solids to the ghee until it turns into a powder. So it's mostly milk solids, and milk solids are keeping that butter apart. That's what it is. So I don't I mean it, it's not like it's gonna hurt you when it's whipping, but I don't really think it's gonna necessarily help either.
+
+[33:25] Is that a good answer, Stuzz? Or no? Yep. Hey Aaron. Yo, are you one of these oat milk weasels?
+
+[33:35] I am I think oat milk. I'm sorry, hold on. Everybody uh can hear me clearing my throat. Um I think oat milk is a scam. What?
+
+[33:47] Um because so if you're not making your oatmeal, and I know it's not for oatmeal, but hear me out. If you're not making your oatmeal with milk, what are you using? Water, like a chunk. Water? Water.
+
+[34:03] Right. So like you're making your own oat milk and doing that, but we all know that making it with water doesn't taste as good. Right? So your throat. Okay, hold on.
+
+[34:14] I'm gonna mute it. This episode is brought to you by Bent to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. I recently received a conservice box. I had squids, razor clams, octopus, um, and sardines, and then it came with this hot sauce. So this sauce is apparently the favorite sauce of Barcelona.
+
+[34:43] I was there last. I was there two years ago with everyone's favorite life coach, Claire. And when I put the sauce on all of my bread and fish, uh, it reminded me of being in Barcelona with Claire. So thank you, Ben to Table. Go to BenditTable.com to start your own monthly subscription.
+
+[35:02] Use the discount code H R N to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of A.R.N.'s programming. I'm back. I'm all good. So oat milk is like the residue of a less preferable oatmeal. No.
+
+[35:27] I yeah. No, I mean, I there's no, is there even fat in oats? Uh they specifically remove the fat. Um, and well, they they either remove the fat or they have to um they have to deactivate the um the lipases in it that will uh cause it to go rancid. So they are lipoxygenases, whatever they're called, the enzymes that will do it.
+
+[35:53] So they either have to heat and activate it or remove the fat. There is some fat in it, yeah. It is great. And now they have oatmeal. Or in oat milk, you're saying that they remove the fat.
+
+[36:02] In commercial oat milk that you buy, they add fat to it. They add neutral oil to it to get the fat level up to where you want. Yeah, it's a scam. It's not a scam. It is the best non milk milk.
+
+[36:16] It really is. Have you ever made oatmeal with oat milk? No. I don't even know. I have.
+
+[36:21] Yeah, well, don't. In 2007, that would have been called oats two ways. Oat on oat on oat on oat. Oat squared. Aaron, Aaron, make coffee with because I drink coffee and I stopped using milk.
+
+[36:36] If you have the coffee. Nastasia's is Nastasia's like being alone during this COVID time has turned her into a cult leader. No. I'm like drinking, just drinking coffee like a cult leader. I defend Nastas.
+
+[36:51] No, oat milk is the best alternative milk and coffee. Yes. It's very good. Yeah. What about almond milk?
+
+[36:57] No, you did taste. It's better. Yeah, almonds is delicious. Coffee is delicious. You don't want your coffee to taste like you don't want your coffee to taste like almonds.
+
+[37:07] You want it to taste like milk. Then use milk. No, because you're not lactose intolerant. No, I thought it I've been vegan. I've been trying to be vegan for uh why?
+
+[37:17] I don't know. It's a discipline thing. It's a central tenant of her cult. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[37:22] But there's no reason ecological argument to bring out. You look in the mirror, do you make the vegan face? Yeah. Um I was like making myself solo meals. Um that's under I understand a solo meal.
+
+[37:37] Where did the eating vegan come from? Because having animal protein as the only like contact that I had with a person or a mammal or whatever you want to call it, like was sad. So I was like, you know what? I don't want to have this dead piece of meat in my house. Yeah, but what about what about milk and eggs?
+
+[37:56] You said meat. I can do without milk. Eggs are. Apparently you can't because you're buying expensive substitutes for it. Well, how do we know you're not making your own?
+
+[38:08] I'm definitely not making my own because people need to realize that like places that make mass production of great shouldn't stuff should kids go watch Toy Story. Again, um they should just realize that people that mass produce things are doing it the best way. Like, why would I go through that's that's not always you say McDonald's makes the best hamburgers? A fast food hamburger, yes. If you want that same fast food taste, Aaron's not saying fast food, Aaron's saying make it home versus not.
+
+[38:43] The argument, the argument here is that they are doing a process you can't easily do at home. Therefore you can't mimic it. Unlike McDonald's, where I can very easily make a hamburger at home. Yes. Anyway, uh, point is is that Nastasia gets these weird things in her head, like she won't play music.
+
+[39:00] She has to hear it from the radio. That is true. And this has become one of those things, and this is gonna become a problem. This is gonna become a problem for me. I guarantee it's gonna become a problem for me.
+
+[39:10] What is this weird like cult tangent you're going off on? Because there's no reason for you. I had I had meat on Saturday. If I'm with people Hey, did anyone say anything about meat? We're talking about oat milk right now.
+
+[39:22] Where's this meat conversation coming from? Where is this? Hey, where any of you John? Were you talking about meat? No, we're talking about oat milk.
+
+[39:31] I believe we're talking about oat milk. She started on meat. Okay, but I'm I grew up with milk and it's kind of gross. Pow milk. You've been having milk forever.
+
+[39:40] You love cheese. I love cheese, yeah. Cheese is the one problem with veganism. I cannot do without cheese. So that's never gonna, I'm never gonna.
+
+[39:47] Eggs in everything that's made. Eggs, I told you, Dave, I got real grossed out by the the uh what's that little thing? Kalaza. Yeah, so gross. Wait, what's kalaza?
+
+[39:57] Is that in the plaza alone in a house? I just I couldn't do it. Yeah, but everything is made with eggs. Yeah, that's fine. As long as there's eggs in it, but to scramble them and to see that little thingy, no one says you have to scramble eggs.
+
+[40:10] What's a colasa? It's the okay. Listen, Matt, you got an egg, you got your shell, you got that like skin membrane, and then holding the egg yolk in the white is like a ropey doodad with a little white pearly McGilla cutty attached to it called the chalaza. So gross. It's like the umbrella.
+
+[40:31] This is why in uh and John, you'll back me up on this. Old school French weasels will strain their egg whites uh after they're done to get rid of the halaza because it's gross, and what we do instead is use a vita prep when we're making our creme en glaze. But if you don't use a vita prep, if you're just stirring your creme en glaze, you need to strain it to get rid of the halaza. John Troy. Oh, that is disgusting.
+
+[40:58] Disgusting, right? Yes, have you ever heard that, Dave? You know what? It almost auto Google almost auto-completed halaza for me. The uh I'm gonna send you the grossest picture.
+
+[41:12] What looks gross doesn't taste bad is balanced. What? Thank you. The whole quarantine is just lots of things are coming up. I'll I'll buy what's a balloon.
+
+[41:25] Did you say balut? Yeah, yeah, balut. So that's where you actually let the egg grow until it's about to hatch, and then you open it and you eat the you eat the the almost bird. Yeah, that's too much. Yeah, it's it's good.
+
+[41:42] It tastes good. I wouldn't like seek it out, but like it's not as gross as people say it is. Everyone's like, so gross. Oh my god. It's not that gross.
+
+[41:50] It's a little less when I was in Laos I had one and the embryo was a little overdeveloped, so it was a little feathery and and too crunchy. It wasn't wasn't super pleasant. Yeah, well, I was eating it with someone who was walking me through the process, and there's like a st there's a there's a st a stony thing in it that has to be removed that is the waste product of the embryo being grown. So you get rid of that. But like on balance, it tastes rather brothy.
+
+[42:17] The stony thing that needs to be removed. Is that like the beak? No, no, no. That stuff's all fine. No, it's like literally like a little little stony thing.
+
+[42:30] Hey, when you eat a pitch, do you uh a peach, do you get all uh all pissed off because of the of the stone? No, you don't eat the pit. It's the same thing with the balloon. Um there are like eyes and stuff. Oh god.
+
+[42:45] What the heck? I've had it. Who am I dealing with it? I've had it. Stas, what's what's the world's best peach?
+
+[42:51] Nectarine. Correct. Correct. The nectarine is the best peach. Get on a game show.
+
+[42:58] What? You have to get on a game show. I know. I know. Well, because we have uh we have our own, we have like you know, 12 years of shtick built up.
+
+[43:06] We can just do this stuff back and forth. Anyway, Ian writes in this is gonna be about oat milk. Uh this is oh, by the way, Ian's giving you some information on grain milling first. So Nastasia earmuffs. No.
+
+[43:19] This is not Nastasia's say it's gonna trigger her. She doesn't want you to talk about, by the way, dairy products or meat, but also not about grain. So she only eats celery. Um I have some info to share on last week's show on grain milling and then a question. I justified buying a Vitamix some years ago because of a demonstration that bundled the dry container uh and claimed it could make flour.
+
+[43:42] I've since been grinding wheat in it to make pizza every week or two for about 10 years, and the whole picky family is happy with the results. The Vitamix does create a lot of heat. It really does. Uh, there's uh some really good articles on the internet. Uh I have to find it for you guys, but at some point in the next year, uh I'll be talking about it.
+
+[44:02] And there's a there's a website, and I forget the person's name, but they do an extremely good job of measuring the heat generated by different blenders and the power and the friction. Just a fantastic job. I I don't have it on the tip of my tongue, so I can't tell you what website to go to. Anyway, um, but I keep the wheat berries vacuum bagged in the freezer before grinding, so the final temperature is about 110 Fahrenheit. I sift it in a no-number oxo mesh strainer.
+
+[44:29] You need to up your, you need to up your your strainer, your your sieve game, Ian. I just ordered off of the internet. Well, I'll finish what you said. Uh, and sprinkle the big bits on the peel or parchment like cornmeal. To extend the coffee analogy, I figure it's like using a whirly blade instead of a better bird grinder.
+
+[44:45] But as my kitchen and basement are already full of gear, I just can't justify a grain mill right now. Well, you can't even buy one, Ian, so don't even bother because they're all out of stock unless you go on eBay and buy some broke one like I did and like rebuild it better, stronger, faster. Uh, since it wasn't mentioned, I figure other listeners who have the same setup could try this. And if they want to dabble in home grinding before going full in on a grain mill. So I would go to get a good uh shaker, but I've been spending the past couple of weeks uh with I I hand built um flour sieves and I made them square.
+
+[45:18] For God's sakes, if you ever make your own Cs, don't make them square. The squareness is such a nightmare because the stuff gets caught in the corners. And I've also learned that tapping the sieves is a terrible way to get like that's how I do like for those of you that like use the uh the fine strainers, the uh Shinois in a kitchen, you hold it and then you can sit there, and some people use a spoon or like crazier people use that weird cone shaped thing to to get the stuff to go through. But most of us, I think just sit there and pound the handle in with your hand to get the stuff to jangle and go through. Is that how you do it, John?
+
+[45:59] Is that how you do it, Aaron? Uh yeah, yeah. Well, according to CDC guidelines, that's how Aaron does it. But the um but uh when you're you're working with uh powdered goods in a large thing like a Tammy, you don't want to hit it, right? These are fundamentally big tamis, it's just not effective.
+
+[46:17] You want to take your hand or a spatula and push the stuff through, but it's a nightmare. So I've been the biggest hardest part about the working with my own flour has been this the sifting through the different size meshes. But just yesterday, what showed up in time for me to bake my anniversary 25th anniversary bread with Dax, which I'm gonna be doing a hard white weed, I'll let you know next week how I like it. Is I bought uh a vibratory shaking sieve off of eBay, came direct from China in under a week, and that sucker is a miracle. It's the same size as my as my hand sifting boxes that I made, and you just push a button and walk away, and it goes and sis everything.
+
+[47:00] So I'm loving it. I only have had it for a day, but I'm already loving it anyway. Uh here's the question they uh that Ian wrote in, though. And this is going back to oat milk. And uh Aaron, we're gonna talk a little bit about your hatred of oat milk.
+
+[47:12] Oat milk is more nuanced, as Nastasia would say, than you're letting it uh on it to be, and also the way they make it at Oatley makes it hard for you to make it home. So I'm gonna give points to Nastasia in this argument. What do you think, Sasha? I like that. Because I'm right.
+
+[47:28] Uh I don't know. I don't know. It's just uh coming from a bar background, you know, you make your own or shot. You can make your own oat milk. All right, well, we're gonna get into this.
+
+[47:37] Trader Joe's sells a drink called non-dairy oat beverage that tastes good and it's slightly sweet. I don't know about Trader Joe's, just get the oatly. Everyone likes the oatly. Am I right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[47:46] Jabani does one too. That's pretty good. Chabani, they make an oat thing? What the hell is oat yogurt? I don't know.
+
+[47:54] No, no, no. They they make an oat milk, and it's just as good as oatly. And then they yogurt it, but they yogurt it. What the heck is that taste like? Have any of you guys had that?
+
+[48:01] No. No. The problem with almond wilt, by the way. All right, well, I'll finish this question. Okay.
+
+[48:06] It tastes good and it's slightly sweet. I've tried making in quotes oat milk, but it's not the same, being watery and vaguely oaty at best. Not oatly, oat e. And oatnealy slimy at worst. The good stuff only lists water and hydrolyzed oats as ingredients and says on the package that they break the starches down into sugars to produce the sweetening effect.
+
+[48:25] Are there uh any readily available enzymes or techniques I could use to replicate this at home? I have sous vide equipment. Suz vide. You got to just buy Oatly. Come on.
+
+[48:38] Okay, okay, hold up. Let me finish this question, Nastasia. You can be indignant in a minute. I have uh sous vide equipment and the Vitamix, but no spinz all for the same reason I don't have a grain mill. I'd rather just buy dry oats and save on the wasteful packaging and shipping of water all over the place, Stas.
+
+[48:56] Oh, what do I think about that? What do you think about that, Stas? There's lots of things. Does he buy wine? Does he buy beer?
+
+[49:05] Does he make his own wine and beer? So you're saying that Oatly is of such a high quality. Yes, that it's comparable to fermenting Welch's grape juice versus buying good wine. Yes. You're just being a troll now.
+
+[49:22] You're just being crazy. I'm looking at the ingredients of Oatley right now. No, it's also again, it's insulting because these people at Oatley found a way to make a delicious product, and then this guy's like, well, can't I just make it at home? Like, no, no, no. Speaking of insulting, John.
+
+[49:42] We only have like 10 minutes for this argument. So speaking of insulting, John, after this, uh, let's talk mustard for a minute. And Nastasia has not yet ordered our monocles, so I can't go back to Belgium, but I'll talk about our mustard experiments. So John found uh for me again, I've read it before, uh, the patent that Oatley has. And the European patent is W02020 14123466A1, US patent number 9743684.
+
+[50:13] And uh it's about creating an oat beverage. And it goes into excruciating detail exactly, exactly what they do. Now the reason people like some people want oat milk is because they believe that the um beta glucans in it are gonna reduce their cholesterol, right? And so they think that that that they're gonna live forever if they have beta glucans, right? So uh part of what they have to do is heat treat the oats to because there's an enzymes in it in the oats that will automatically uh break it down, right?
+
+[50:51] And as the patent says, typically uh oat milk is too low of a fat concentration to s to foam properly, so they'll add uh vegetable oil to it. Now I'm sure there's someone out there who you know reclaims uh the fat from oats because people do remove the fat from oats to make sure that they don't go rancid and then can then add that fat back in later. So it's possible to get an all oat all day uh situation. But here's the main here's the main issue. The reason they had this uh patent invention that Oatley did, and it says room for further improvement uh is the following, in particular in respect to increasing the protein content of the drinks.
+
+[51:31] Processes for producing oat drinks known in the art do not adequately access the protein in the raw oat material. So the issues are is that um oats are heated prior to being um uh ground up so that you don't have the enzymes that will make the fats go rancid and also that'll destroy the beta glucans. Uh so addition, so a lot of the the protein is not in soluble form, sometimes because it's never insoluble, uh never soluble to begin with, or because it was um or because it was heat treated and therefore becomes insoluble. And the patent's a little bit weird because they say don't use preheated steamed oats, but then when they actually describe how they do it, they do use pre-steamed oats. But the magical trick that they use is an enzyme that has its own patent, EP09 uh 76829B1.
+
+[52:20] Uh, and it is a what's called a peptid a peptidase, uh no, it's a deamidation enzyme, right? So it deamodates. So what it's doing is it's cleaving off uh uh an amide group, releasing, I think, like an ammonia and making the proteins that were formerly insoluble soluble. So they're treating it with this protein, this protease enzyme, well, protein deaminase enzyme, the amidating enzyme, that is taking a otherwise insoluble or less soluble protein and making it soluble. So by treating it with that enzyme, they can increase the protein content of the oat milk without adding external protein to it.
+
+[53:00] So what this is telling you is if you want to just do it and you don't have access to that enzyme, one of the answers, if you don't really care, is to just add protein to it that's going to have good whipping ability. So just choose any sort of good whipping ability protein and adding it to it. I don't know whether the company that makes it is uh Amano, amanoenzyme inc is the name of the company that sells the uh that sells the enzyme that they use. They then also use an amylase, both a an alpha and a beta amylase to break the starch down, which is why it's sweet, and also why it's not so thick. So they get it to be closer to the actual viscosity of milk by breaking the starch down, and they increase the protein that's available by using an enzyme that makes the protein water soluble, and it's the protein in the oat milk that allows it to foam so well in foam drinks and why it is quote unquote barista grade.
+
+[53:53] Things like soy milk have a lot of protein, but the problem with soy milk is that soy milk, the proteins in soy milk will curdle when added to hot coffee, the same way it they'll curdle when you add stuff to them to make tofu. Almonds don't have enough protein in them to uh, I think to whip properly, and so almond milk doesn't work, and other milks don't have the right fat content. So the nice thing about this oatly is they use this these enzymes, and I believe they add fat to it to get the fat and protein content and protein uh styles in it relatively close to what you'd have for dairy milk. So it works well in coffee uh drinks. The and you can read in their patent if you care to the exact dosages and times and temperatures that they use.
+
+[54:42] Uh, but just go to go to that patent. Does that make sense? That's a decent thing. Yeah, it's just like you know, they do it in a factory. Is this douche gonna do it?
+
+[54:53] Like it's it's not even it's not comp like it makes me angry the whole thing. So speaking of making you angry, oh by the way, for your survey, uh they are demographically the same as me, same age, geographical background, and lots of other weirdly common out of what'd you say? That makes sense. Yeah, loves the show, feels like he's found kindred spirits in us and is hoping to make it to existing conditions someday when the apocalypse is over. Uh, if the apocalypse is ever over.
+
+[55:20] Um, so speaking of uh people who listen to the show might know that uh, you know, Nastasia doesn't believe that John and I should try to make mustard, instead, we should just, you know, while she's saving the earth by being vegan, we should just light fire to eight billion gallons of uh airplane fuel and fly to Belgium every day to buy our mustard. No, or just be like, that was a really good experience. I can't wait to go back someday. I'm not going to mean while I can't have mustard, yeah. Or just eat American mustard.
+
+[55:49] Why do I want American mustard? Why don't you just buy French mustard? French mustard's garbage mustard. Or Edmund Fallow, man. Or the best mustard I've ever had is from Ghent.
+
+[56:00] Work on this the Cube video. Well, listen, here's the thing. Here's what I learned about Gent. John, why are you? Hey, I'm not trying to make the Ghent mustard, but what I learned from Ghent Mustard is this.
+
+[56:13] It's made only with mustard seeds, vinegar, salt, and water. And so what that means is that if the best mustard I had only has that in it, that I don't need like wine or beer or sugar or honey or any of these other things to get a mustard I like. So I ran my first mustard experiment with the wet grinder and a whole whole grain, whole grain, fine ground mustard in a wet grinder. If you don't know what a wet grinder is, I'm not saying to go buy a wet grinder, but they're pretty awesome, but for specific things. So if you like idlies, if you like dosas, um, if you want to make your own chocolate, uh, which again, it's better to buy Valrona.
+
+[56:57] It is better, Stas, but it is fun having made your own uh chocolate once or twice. Uh it's great for uh mustard. Uh anyway, wet grinders are a lot of fun. They do take up a lot of space, they're not that expensive anymore. They used to be a lot more, but there's a lot more brands available in the US now.
+
+[57:13] So uh I soaked my brown mustard seeds. The problem I think is the mustard seeds I got were old. I bought them from Calusteans. I love Calusteans, but like sometimes their spice can be sitting on the shelf for forever. Am I right, John?
+
+[57:24] Yeah. So I took a pound of mustard seeds, uh, soaked them in about twice that weight of water uh overnight, ground them in the wet grinder, added about two percent of salt, two, two and a half percent of salt, and then here's the trick. So mustard seeds, and I wasn't able to get it as hot as I want, so I need to experiment. But mustard seeds, if you hydrate them or crush them in water, um, they will get hotter, spicier than if you do it in acid. So, what I did is, and it really freaked me out.
+
+[57:53] I have glacial acetic acid. Have I've already talked about this on air yet. I don't know. Glacial acetic acid is like 99, it's greater than 99% acetic acid, and it is extremely corrosive to skin. It makes me so nervous having it around.
+
+[58:08] I dripped a little bit on my concrete floor and it ate the surface off of the concrete floor. It was crazy. So I'm adding small amounts of that so that I can get the hydration with pure water and then get the acidity up to the preservation level that I want using this, but just freaks me out too much. So I have some 30% German vinegar coming to me that I can use uh, you know, German vinegar essence that I'm gonna use it the next time I make it. But the mustard is delicious, but it's like it's the I I I can hydrate it more.
+
+[58:36] The mustard I made is the texture, it's smooth, it's dark brown, it's spicy, but it's the texture of chicken liver, right, John? You saw the picture of it. It's thick. I'll work on it. Um Price Sun, long time listener, wrote in and said, uh, thanks for including my question on the podcast.
+
+[58:56] He thinks Jordana had the best voice, but Phil gets an honorable mention for heavy raw emotion. Uh what do you think, Self? What do you think of that? Yeah, what do you think? He also wants us to make the steamsol, which is the steamer thing that we're gonna put uh into the oven for baking bread.
+
+[59:14] We're not gonna make it, but if someone wants to talk about steam generation, I spoke to Adam Leonti, who we might have back on the show, along hopefully with uh Stephen Jones, the guy who runs the bread lab, and we'll do another bread catastrophe as he gets ready to have his own podcast. So we'll save that uh for later about why we're not going to um why we're not gonna build that. Someone else, Nastasia, I forget who it was, wrote in. Oh, here's one. William and Cheryl wrote in.
+
+[59:39] Uh, hey, Dave, Nastasi and Matt in the booth. What? Also, Aaron needs to promote his product. Give me one second. Uh, first time writing into the show.
+
+[59:44] I recently drove cross-country with my fiance. Remember, fiance is the least permanent of all things. Jesus. And made her listen to most of the cooking issues backlog. We both love the rock star wine tasting, Nastasia.
+
+[1:00:00] We do too, but you don't want to do it because it's not a family show. That's not true. We don't want to do it because you said that the person that we had on doing it already did it as part of his own thing, and so we can't do it anymore. That's what you said. So now you take something that you say we can't do, and then you blame it on me.
+
+[1:00:15] This is classic Lopez. We were gonna have the guy from Tool on, remember? Oh, here it is. Did Nastasia really work? Well, he says for corn, or was she just working for corn with a C?
+
+[1:00:25] It was neither. It was Tool. No, I worked for corn. You worked for corn? Okay, yeah.
+
+[1:00:30] Corn with a K. Okay. Corn with a K and a backwards R. Yep. Why did what's the backwards R for?
+
+[1:00:36] I don't know, man. That's just how corn was stylized. Against more corn. What do you think about corn, the German liquor, Aaron? Oh.
+
+[1:00:50] I think I I don't know. I've only had a one, so I would have squarely put it into the miracle whip category. I have some artisanal corn that was uh one of those things where the guy shows up at the restaurant where I'm eating Schweinhox and I'm shoving the Schweinhox in my face. It was delicious. We were somewhere in Berlin.
+
+[1:01:05] I was taken there by uh Evan Clem, and he's like, my favorite Schweinhoxa place. So we go there, we go to get Schweinhoxa, and this guy walks in, he's like, This is my homemade corn, and he hands me the corn, and we we got toasted on corn. It was pretty good. It was pretty good, I have to say. Uh so uh Will William and Cheryl finish out and and and Nastasia don't need to worry because I'm not gonna answer their question.
+
+[1:01:27] I'm gonna answer their question with another thing. We moved from Augusta to my brother's guest house in San Diego during the quarantine, looking to install a carbonation system so that the whole family can enjoy. Apologies if you already explained the correct rig setup and parts to buy in a former episode that I haven't gotten to, but we'd love to have bubbles all summer. Thanks for the great show, William and Cheryl. And so what am I gonna say, John?
+
+[1:01:47] You have to force me. I'm working on that video. True or false. No, John, make have him make mustard. I thought you wanted me to do the carbonation video.
+
+[1:01:57] Nastasi, I thought you wanted me to do the carbonation video. I don't want you to make mustard or bread. Do not make mustard or bread. I've already I'm making bread literally right now, and I have two liters of mustard in my fridge that I've already made. John, we're gonna have another conversation.
+
+[1:02:12] About what? Oh, priorities mean like wine sand. I haven't worked on him in a year. Well, more than a year. I need to eat mustard.
+
+[1:02:20] I made mustard. It took me like 20 minutes of of work. What's wrong with you? I don't talk to you about your veganism. Well, I guess I do.
+
+[1:02:27] You do in the most public way. I do. All right, Trevor, I saw that you write me wrote me about rice cookers. You got you already have your Zoji Rushi uh neurofuzzy rice uh cooker that you got on Craigslist. And and someone in your house, Trevor, someone in your house is saying that it's not worth the space.
+
+[1:02:47] Trevor, the Zoji Rushi neuro neurofuzzy rice cooker is is a joy that you will use forever. Use it to reheat any damn thing. Any damn thing without without scorching. It's the induction one, right? Is it neurofuzzy induction?
+
+[1:03:02] Use it to reheat any dang thing. Rice, you can go back, you can make Aaron's oatmeal. He should let us know if it's his wife that doesn't like it. You should also let us know every other object that's in the kitchen because we could tell him which one's less useful. I mean, I have to say, like, I use my even if I'm not cooking rice, I use my right.
+
+[1:03:23] Do you guys hear another woman? Who is it? Is that with you, Aaron? No, that was unfortunate. My wife is very excited to have finally gotten on unemployment, so she started talking.
+
+[1:03:34] Nice. All right. Well, congratulations. It's the big win. It's the best we can hope for out of 2020.
+
+[1:03:41] Oh my god, I feel so bad. Like, so uh Dax is uh what is he now? He's 15. He's like, this is the worst year of my life all time. I was like, fair.
+
+[1:03:52] Yeah. You know, what am I gonna say? Obviously, yes. It is really weird. Anyway, uh, it's been it's been a bad, bad year.
+
+[1:04:00] Uh well, uh anything else? Aaron, push your stuff. This is your chance. Thank you for coming on the show, Aaron Polski. And hopefully in the next week or so, you'll have figured out your uh CDC recommended uh physical contact guidelines.
+
+[1:04:16] Uh built your built your uh you know biologically impenetrable membranes complete with touching orify. I think there's a word for those. Yeah, which I will not use. And so now you talk about your product, yeah, in the two seconds we have left. Uh great.
+
+[1:04:34] Uh it's a canned cocktail. Uh, I started a company called Livewire. Uh it brings you canned cocktails from some of the world's best bartenders. Um, it connects. Man, asked me some questions about it.
+
+[1:04:51] Uh basically, what I'm doing is I am I'm I'm I I didn't prepare for this. Is that supposed to do this? Separate question, separate question. Uh has Inagata Davida ever been used in a television show or a movie without it being a murder scene. You're the worst.
+
+[1:05:14] Listen, I launched the Can Cocktail Company. It's called LiveWire. It is the idea is that it works like a record label, and you have all of your favorite bartenders under one label. You go to the store, you buy their drink. If somebody wants your drink, and let's say maybe your gin and juice is on live wire, they can buy it in the store wherever they are.
+
+[1:05:34] They don't need to come to you, and you don't need to come to them. Let me poke, let me poke you a little bit. Here we go. So like the theory is, right, that there's bartenders with good ideas, no reach. So you're gonna put a little money in these bartenders who have these drinks in their pocket, let people have a little bit of what that bartender does.
+
+[1:05:52] So it's basically just spreading the community of these individual bartenders around to a wider audience and letting everyone make a little bit of money, but also have a little bit of fun at the same time. This is true or false. There are also bartenders with a lot of reach, but that reach is limited because right now you can read about uh a quote unquote famous bartender, and like you can't experience the drink that they're making. It's the equivalent of like the 1850s when you could read about a musician, but you wouldn't know what their music sounded like unless you knew how to play music and could play their music off of sheet music, or unless they came to town. So this is essentially the final record, right?
+
+[1:06:31] It's like now it's bringing it into your home so you can have a way to connect with that bartender. No bartender is as famous as Miracle Whip. Where can you buy it, Aaron? That's a good point. You're online.
+
+[1:06:42] You can buy it online at LiveWireDrinks.com. Um it is available in fine liquor stores in New York and California. Uh you can also buy it at the shop right in Hoboken as of last week. Shop right in Hoboken. That's a shop right in a hoboken.
+
+[1:07:01] Listen, Hoboken, and I sent Booker to Hoboken because they make my my favorite American-style mozzarella comes from Hoboken and Kennel and uh can what is it? Uh Massimose, wherever that is, in Kennelworth, I guess, or whatever it is. So like I love that. And so Hoboken has Hoboken has an amazing history of uh bars. It it had the most bars per square mile of anywhere, I think, right?
+
+[1:07:28] Hoboken's a great place to have you know your only Jersey outpost. You know, I'm I'm gonna say that having grown up in Jersey, I'm very much looking forward to some high school reunion, which I thought I would never say in my life, because I'll be like, yo, let's meet up in the shop right parking lot. I got the pre-game. That's the strongest thing you can ever say in a reunion. So strong.
+
+[1:07:50] You're gonna beat the hell out of all of them. Like, that's it. Like you won. Like, you know, you know Romy and Michelle coming in in a helicopter, man. You own this thing with your pre-gaming with your own product in there.
+
+[1:08:01] When's your tenure or 15 years or whatever? What's coming up for you? Uh, how old am I? I'm 33. So I guess it would have been my my 15 year, but that's not happening.
+
+[1:08:11] So I don't know, the 20? The 20 at 38? Yeah, it's pretty good by that. Um, I would also like to point out that a lot of the science applied to Livewire I learned from you. So thank you.
+
+[1:08:24] Thank you. Thanks, Sonic. So wait, wait, so you right now you're in California, New York. Will they illegally ship to other states or no? They will legally ship to other states.
+
+[1:08:33] You can order it uh to pretty much all 50 states. Maybe like maybe there are a couple you can't, but um the the fulfillers will ship to pretty much every state. And which bartenders have you already teamed with that people can know? Uh so Joey Bernardo's cocktail drops today. Um coming out in the future, we have Aaron Hayes from Westward Whiskey, we have Yale Vengroff, uh, Christine Wiseman, Southern, Masoroshito, um, we haven't released it yet, but we're we're working on one.
+
+[1:09:09] What's other do? So the only ones that are completed prototypes are um Yale's. We also have My Kappa Ferry. I'm not I'm not I'm not releasing them until they're out. Jeez, please, dude.
+
+[1:09:24] Jesus. I'll tell you what about the ones that are out? Let me tell you about the ones that are out. All right. Joey made the Honeydew Collins.
+
+[1:09:30] So Joey Bernardo has been at Harvard and Stone for like eight years. He runs it now. Uh I know how you feel it up. Um he's he's LA's favorite bartender. Uh he's what's the drug of choice to drink with the Melon Collins?
+
+[1:09:47] You know the answer to that question. Yeah, is it is it a play on melancholy, by the way? You know what's really funny? You know what's really funny is that his art, I realize. So we basically have tattoo artists or like famous artists, not famous.
+
+[1:10:04] We have art. Every bartender can pick their own artist. A lot of the bartenders have chosen tattoo artists who have done work on their own bodies. Um Joey's art, I realized once we had already packaged it, looks a little bit like that Smashing Pumpkins album, Melancholy and the Whatever. I'm you know I'm a child of the late 80s.
+
+[1:10:26] Um and uh he's like a smashing pumpkins fan, and he didn't even realize it, and it's honeydew, and that one is melancholy, so yeah, whatever. I mean strong. I like that. All right, and how's it taste? It's great.
+
+[1:10:43] It's uh it's gin, honeydew, coconut, lime leaf, and elder flower. Um, so it's got some tropical vibes, and it's also very refreshing. Is it green? It is not, it's clear. Should it be green?
+
+[1:10:56] Should I change that in a few? Sounds green, like a Midori green, Dave. It sounds like it should be like a greener fresca. It should look like a greener fresca. Let me look up a greener fresca.
+
+[1:11:11] So it should be like in other words, it should have a uh like it should it should have some of that clouding agent added that they add to uh kind of citrus beverages, and it should be like lightly green. Okay. That's my feeling. Hey, did you ever drink the Slimer soda back in the day? Like that.
+
+[1:11:30] Wait, named after the Ghostbusters ghost? That's way bright. I'm not saying go neon, dude. That was so awesome. It was like the Ecto Cooler.
+
+[1:11:39] That's what it was called. Oh wow. I mean I think that there's something fun about you know, incorporating a color to a can drink because you don't see it until you crack the can and yeah, everybody likes color, especially if you're not using all natural care, and especially because the average person using all natural stuff. Oh, geez, don't womp. We're not getting into it, we don't have time for the womps.
+
+[1:12:01] Okay, we gotta go, we gotta go. Listen, listen, listen. All the drinks are Whole Foods compliant. Oh, geez, Louise. Listen, uh I'll say uh part of one of the issues with things that don't have color is people have a tough time latching on to flavor reference in the absence of color unless you tell them straight up what they're doing.
+
+[1:12:22] You know what I mean? But it's on the can. Yeah, we can. It says what's in it. Okay.
+
+[1:12:26] I'm just saying looks green, it'll taste more green. Looks green, tastes more green. That's just Aaron, good luck. Good luck and Godspeed with your mission this week. Oh my god.
+
+[1:12:39] Oh, jeez. Does everybody know? All right. Okie dokie. I think we're we're I think we've done it.
+
+[1:12:46] And cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:13:01] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:13:24] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at BenttoTable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and H R N gets $10. This week on Meet and Three, we look at how we've adapted to a new normal during the pandemic.
+
+[0:26] From the business of restauranteering and the new habits of composters to learning from the past to prepare for the future, we are exploring what came before and what lies ahead. These kids are so young, and we're teaching them that it's okay to throw out all this food, and we have to figure out a way to educate these students to make them, you know, lifelong environmentalists. Tune in to Meet and Three wherever you get your podcasts for the latest stories in the world of food. I think when it's like at Heritage where they have to jumpstart. Which technically we're all doing right now.
+
+[1:17] Alright, here we go. Oh and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from the Lower East Side. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez from Stamford, Connecticut. John from Nahoul from uh the Murray Hill.
+
+[1:39] Uh Matt from his Brooklyn booth, Boothette. And today's special guest, Adamal. Auto Millon G-Where are you hanging out at? Upper West Side. Upper West Side.
+
+[1:55] Oh, yeah? You live in the Upper West Side? Yeah. And you work down in you work down in the in the so that's kind of a crap commute. Am I right?
+
+[2:02] I just ride my bike, so I don't have to take the train. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How long is how long is that bike? Is that a 30 35 minute ride?
+
+[2:11] What is it? A little less, like 25, probably. I like that. I like a b- I love a bike ride. I don't have my bike, my real bike anymore.
+
+[2:19] Now I am a city bike guy. So are you like I used to be where you hate locking your bike? So it's just it goes from inside to inside and you never lock it anywhere. That's exactly how I do it. It goes inside the restaurant or inside my house, and that's it.
+
+[2:32] Yeah, my old chain used to weigh as much as my bike, and so I just never carry it around with me, which is why actually City Bike makes it kind of more convenient for running errands where I'm not allowed to bring my bike in. For those of you that don't know, have never ridden a bike in New York City, there's all of these buildings with all these crazy anti-bike policies. And when you ride your Stas, you remember this when you had the folding bike? Up. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[2:57] And so what you do is is like you ride up to the door, and then you're like because you know you're about to have an argument with this fool. You know what I mean? At the front of the building, and then you're you know, you get all you get all bent. Stas, how many arguments did did the both of us get into with people about our bikes? Oh, so many.
+
+[3:15] But Dave, what's worse on a city bike? Uh seat that keeps falling or sticky handles? Which one would you rather? But I can only have one. Yeah.
+
+[3:24] I I can't get both the falling seat and the sticky hand. But see, I think actually, like the falling seat is maybe worse. Like, I the slow falling seat on like a relatively long ride where you're like, it's gonna hold, it's gonna freaking hold, it's gonna hold, and then like, and then you're like, you're going, you're going, you're you're going, and then like all of a sudden you're like, I'm I'm that old man who has the poorly adjusted seat with my knees in my chest. What the hell? You know what I mean?
+
+[3:56] Like, because I I hate those dudes. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Whenever I see someone and their knees, their legs never go almost straight as it like look around people. Like, if you don't know how to adjust a bike seat, look, like, look it up on the internets, and then look around you, and so many people have their seats too low. Guys, back me up on this.
+
+[4:18] I thought you were gonna say look around you for examples, I was like, nah, man, so many people are wrong. Yeah, dude. Everyone, dude, everyone, not everyone, a lot of people have their seats too low, and you're just giving up power. That's why, and you know, it's probably we should we need to come up with a non-offensive term for for granny gear. Because I know some grannies that can kick most people's behinds.
+
+[4:40] But that's true. You you see these people in in in these in these gears where they're they're they're they're pedaling like a mile a minute and going one mile an hour, and you could get the extra power and spend less of your own energy if you just adjusted your bike seat right. Nastasia, what's my other big gripe? Um, for the for the window. No helmet fix the uh earphones in.
+
+[5:04] Oh, I I hate that. Any any combination of not paying attention while you're on the streets of New York, like gets me real bent. Now, underinflated tires. I hate I hate seeing people with underinflated tires. I hate it.
+
+[5:17] You know what I mean? I mean, look, it's on them. It's for them, but like, why are they wasting their energy? What do you guys think? You guys with me on the underinflated tire thing?
+
+[5:24] 120 psi, it's the only way to roll. Man, although I used to go, well, whatever. This is not biking issues. I wish we could get the bike snob on, though, and just like, is the bike snob still have a blog, or is that is that over years ago? I never know.
+
+[5:42] What was the what was the bike snob? The bike snob was a like a mystery, a mystery New York City biker who just went on. I don't remember whether it was a blog or a Twitter account, and they would just post pictures and vitriol and hate. Just pictures, vitriol, and hate. Hey, do you Nastasia?
+
+[6:04] Do you remember the time that you uh you remember the time that you were biking home from the radio show? And like for those of you that don't know, like, regardless of what Neil Diamond says, Brooklyn roads are the worst, are the worst. It's a good Neil Diamond song, but the actual Brooklyn roads are terrible. So we used to have to ride up Bushwick, which was just one big concrete mogul after the next, because the concrete trucks would drop their concrete and aggregate on the right where the bikes were supposed to drive. And then remember we would turn on on on uh whatever that is, grand, and we would go up towards the bridge, and there was that life-ending pothole that you took and it and it flipped your bike.
+
+[6:47] You remember that? Yeah. Well, and it sucked is it was right in the bike lane. Like pothole in how do you even get a pothole in a bike lane? Because potholes are supposed to be caused by big trucks with their tires.
+
+[7:01] You know what I'm saying? Like, how do you even get how do you even get a pothole in the bike lane? That person just laughed. Like, that's gonna really that's gonna screw somebody up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[7:14] You think like they came out with a jackhammer in the in the middle of the night, we're like speaking of middle of the night, in New York City over the past couple of nights, and we'll get to cooking in a minute, people. Over the past couple of nights in New York City, people have been setting off fireworks in all of these neighborhoods. Where are all these fireworks coming from? I'm not against it. I love fireworks, but like what what is this all about?
+
+[7:37] Jersey, Jersey opened up like uh their mark they writ they they made their market less restrictive, basically. Wait, so people I saw on some of your bartenders like Instagram stories that it's like the police that are creating bomb scares for people late at night. Well, I mean, I've heard that. I've I've heard that. However, like I I just like I don't think anyone's a I mean, like, I don't know, maybe I don't know.
+
+[8:05] It doesn't sound frightening. They're doing it in my neighborhood, and um, it doesn't sound frightening to me. I'm like, someone is setting off fireworks. The very first one you hear, you're like, is that a gunshot? But then no one has that many bullets.
+
+[8:15] Nobody. Yeah, you know what I mean? Well, and the last couple nights, I've had a perfect view of them from my apartment. It's like I live at an amusement. Oh man, I can't see them.
+
+[8:24] They're setting them uh in my neighborhood, they're setting them off uh on a park that I don't have a direct view of, which is kind of depressing. But wait, so you're telling me I can buy real fireworks in New Jersey now, mortars the whole nine? Yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly what they did, but there were two states that were close by that have risk like loosened up the rules, and that's basically the supply side reason for why this is happening. Oh, well, see, the the the way that Nastasi and I have had to run our lives is like, are we going to New Hampshire or are we going to Pennsylvania? Those are the two choices.
+
+[8:54] So, you know, Jersey, you know, I I grew up there, I'm gonna take back anything negative I've said if you've allowed mortars, like real fireworks. The weird thing is New Hampshire, the live free or die state, you can have the full size or as you know, as big as is federally allowed, mortars. For those of you that are a mortar is, I mean, aside from military, a fireworks mortar is uh a charge where they set off a launch charge, but as soon as it leaves the tube, it's no longer powered. It works like a bullet, it's ballistic, right? Now, those are legal in New Hampshire, but nothing that has power once it leaves the ground is legal in New Hampshire.
+
+[9:34] So you can have this giant mortar that you could, you know, blow your entire face off with, fine, but you can't have bottle rockets in New Hampshire. How dumb is that? Okay. Yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:44] I because I remember my brother talking about going to Tennessee because like Tennessee was the closest state where there were basically just no rules. Yeah, but Pennsylvania, as far as I can tell, Pennsylvania is open for business in fireworks. Hey, Stas, remember when we went to Wisconsin and we landed and we realized see, this is the problem. When people, when when people like I understand that why we shouldn't have fireworks in New York City. I'm not, come on.
+
+[10:10] I'm semi-reasonable here. But it's like as soon as Nastasi and I landed, we looked it up and Nastasi's like, fireworks are legal legal here. We're going. And so we went and we bought how many fireworks did we buy, Nastasia? Is she gone?
+
+[10:24] Where'd she go? No idea. So many. Yeah. And then we set them off in the middle of Madison, Wisconsin, which was not a good idea.
+
+[10:30] I think we really ticked off our hosts. We went right in between where the like where the two lakes are, whatever the two lakes are named in Madison. Okay. And we set off this like big fireworks show, and everyone was like, What are you stupid? And we're like, Yeah, pretty much.
+
+[10:44] They're legal here. And then that was it. Yeah, it was good news. All right. All right.
+
+[10:51] So let's get to uh by the way. Anything uh anything to report over the last week? Food-wise? You do. I do, but we're not talking about me yet.
+
+[11:01] I will talk about my stuff in a second. But you guys have anything? No. And then, alright. Well, you know, for those of you that listened last week, uh, last week was my 25th uh wedding anniversary.
+
+[11:14] And so because I you know we couldn't have a party, and also, you know, Jen, my wife couldn't have a 50th birthday party. I was like, I wanted to make a nice meal. Although, as Nastasi pointed out, making a nice meal is not the same thing as doing something. Am I right? That is true.
+
+[11:29] Because it's more for you, too. Because what you made like some special brand you were super excited about, which was I believe Jen's game for her 25th anniversary. Wow. Wow, that's so mean. So mean.
+
+[11:41] I've been baking a lot of bread, which we're gonna get to uh in a minute. I'm trying to remember what bread I did make bread for that night, but I can't remember which one of the loaves. Uh I did. That might have been you remember as the one that Jen specially requested for me. She's like, please, please make this one.
+
+[11:57] She's like, I'm dying for the red fife, Dave. Can you give me the red fife? Can you give me the red fife? Because you haven't yet baked with the red fife that you've milled, so I'm so excited for it. That's what no.
+
+[12:07] She actually she asked for uh steaks. So I went to um I went to Japan Premium Beef. You know that shop? There's one in Brooklyn now, but there's one in uh in you know in Soho, and they're open now, you know, social distancing rules and whatnot. But you can go in and get your get your uh your wagyu on.
+
+[12:24] So I I got some A5 uh Mizuyaki uh I got a fillet. Now listen, for those of you that hate on filet mignon, right? You're hating on it. Why? Why are you hating on it?
+
+[12:35] Because it doesn't have a lot of fat and right, it's relatively neutral. But in this kind of meat, dude, it's a big fat block, an A5, like an A5 filet, you know, is an amazing texture. And Jen, Nastas, even though I'm not a fillet guy, Jen likes the filet, so I got a fillet, not a bad guy, right? Yep. Yeah, you're like, yeah, bad guy.
+
+[12:55] And then I also got uh a piece of the sirloin cap. You know how they chop it into that kind of square, like that's that kind of rectangle, like flat thing, and then some pre-sliced short ribs that they intended for you to flat grill. I took the short rib pieces, I cooked them at 54 or 5 Celsius for about 20 hours, chilled them, refrigerated them, uh so that I could sear them fresh and have them be tender. I then did the the sirloin cap at uh 545 for an hour, dropped it to 52 for an additional uh four and a half hours. I then did the fillet at 52 for an hour, dropped everything to 50, pulled out, seared, served, and I did uh to serve with it, uh Jen requested Brussels sprouts because that's her favorite vegetable.
+
+[13:42] I also got me some fiddleheads and did the blanch. Why does the blanch water on fiddleheads turn so disgusting? Do any of you guys have any ideas? Never blanch fiddle head, but I don't know. Adam, you ever blanch fiddleheads?
+
+[13:55] I have, it gets pretty gross. Yeah, but it why how why does it get so gross? What do you mean? Well, first of all, smells bad. No, it looks crazy disgusting.
+
+[14:03] Like, like blanch water, like sometimes. Really? Yeah, it blend gross, like bl like like dark, like crazy. And I know that, like, look, fiddleheads, for those of you that don't have fiddle heads, some people I guess call them crozures, but I've never met anyone who calls them crozures. They're called fiddleheads, you know.
+
+[14:20] Uh, and they're they're baby ferns. They come up and they're so if you've ever seen a fern come up, it comes up and it looks like the top of a violin fiddlehead. And uh, if you get the wrong ones, they're mildly poisonous, right? And um, they don't raise them, right? Adam, they're all wild.
+
+[14:35] All wild crafted. Yeah, all wild. And so uh, and they were big in the 70s, went back out, came back out, back out. They come in and out, they come in and out. Um, and uh they're all semi, because like ferns like aren't really designed for humans to eat them, so they're all kind of semi not good for you until you blanch the stuff out of it.
+
+[14:55] Would you say it's accurate, Adam? Absolutely. Yeah, but so you blanch them, and also you have to buy them fresh. They they get really crappy fast. You know how like a you know how a bag of herbs starts turning crappy and black and slimy and nasty?
+
+[15:10] Fiddleheads do that real quick, so you don't want to have them sitting around. Would you agree with this, Adam? Agree. Yeah, it's because they have all of the pre-leaves, which are leaves, and they're packed up, right? So if they don't unfurl, they tend to rot really quickly.
+
+[15:25] Anyways, I don't know why, but the blanching water turns disgusting, and then you gotta like you gotta blanch them. Are you a believer, by the way, Adam? In the in the uh ice water after the blanch. I'm a believer in it. Big time.
+
+[15:36] And I like to salt the ice water and the blanching water, both water and salted. Ooh, what's up, fancy McFancy? What's up? I like the blanching the the ice water. That's some strength right there.
+
+[15:49] But uh, for those of you that don't know, uh, I know modernist cuisine said something about how like cold water doesn't no, listen, on a small vegetable, right? But like you you take it until you take it under the limit. Don't take it to the limit this time. Take it under the limit, pull it real fast. You want to wrap it up.
+
+[16:09] This is one of those things where old school I think is right. Rapid boil, very salty water, and then you shock it in the ice water to stop the cooling, and that's the only way I know to have the color not turn gross. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. Or to overcook it.
+
+[16:21] Anyway, then quick sauteing out. And then I served them kind of cool. You know what I didn't buy? They sell a Japan premium beef. They sold there was uh I'm supposed to not spend that much money.
+
+[16:30] And they were selling you ever use the campot pepper. Any of you guys ever use the campot black pepper? Never. It's apparently the world's fanciest like Cambodian pepper, and it was there, and I passed, and the minute I got out, I was like, I regret it. I regret not buying that pepper.
+
+[16:47] How much was it? I don't know, it was a lot. It was like $14, and I was already spending so much more than I was supposed to spend on the beef, that I was like, I mean, you know what the thing where you're there and you know that you're gonna regret it, and you yet you don't do it anyway, and you get out, and now I've been looking on the internet for like the best deal on campot pepper, but I know that if I had bought it there, I know I would have it would have been fresh because they only carry really good stuff there. And then if I order on Amazon, like some idiots probably had in an unair conditioned warehouse for like a year and a half, waiting to push campot pepper on somebody, and so it's just some some garbage in a warehouse. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[17:24] Absolutely. Uh the minute, but while I was on the bike, I had the mask on, I had the meat, everything on my back. I wasn't gonna go back and be like some campot pepper. You know what I mean? Fourteen dollars, Dave.
+
+[17:38] I mean, come on. I believe it's gonna go. If you're gonna sink, you might as well drown. I agree, Adam, completely. Yeah.
+
+[17:46] Yeah. I guess. I'm gonna use that phrase, Adam, if you don't mind. If you're gonna sink out. And then I did some baking.
+
+[17:53] So uh I made for the first time because Booker has been making cake. So Booker, that happened in the last week, right? Nastasia? Booker brought you your cake, or was that two weeks ago? No, that was last week, yeah.
+
+[18:04] See how something happened? Like Nastasia asked for her patriotic red, white, and blue sprinkle cake, and then Booker brought it, but what did he do? He smashed first of all, did we did we talk we talked about the sugar explosion last week, right? Yeah, yeah. So maybe you already had the cake.
+
+[18:21] So the sugar explosion happened. He had not enough icing, but he did a decent job anyway. And then he just the cake was taller than the carrier, so he just like and smashed the carrier into the cake and was like, you know what? To hell with it. To hell with it.
+
+[18:34] And then he got here, he you know, he wants to sit in the back of the car and he just flings flings the cake into the back seat, like it does like you know, a 360 in the air and then lands on the on the other seat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, anyways, so I haven't been baking uh sweets because Booker's been, you know, interested in making cakes, but for the Oh, but I must say, Dave, I had people over on Saturday and they thought it was a milk bar cake. Oh, did you um did you do the uh Angela Gabot's uh goldenrod pastry technique and slice and then freeze it?
+
+[19:12] No, I should. Yeah, come on, man. Good idea. Yeah, because it cause cake, the problem with like even you know, how are you gonna eat a whole cake? It's just a lot.
+
+[19:23] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like a lot. Yeah. So uh, and and and it there's nothing worse than eating that cake, like right, like there's that line where it's starting to go a little bit hard.
+
+[19:36] You know what I'm saying? But it's not, yeah, it's not hard yet, but it's like right. Don't you don't you hate that? I do. I want it to be, yeah.
+
+[19:45] Yeah, so yeah. So uh anyway, so I took Frederick wheat, which is my is my favorite standard soft wheat. How would you Adam? What do you think of the Frederick? It's great, great flavor, like you said, soft wheat, which is really good for cakes and pastries.
+
+[20:01] Yeah, so that's my standard biscuit. That's my standard, um, that's my standard uh I've made the pie crust with it, and it's uh it's also my liège waffle. Yeah, I know brioche is supposed to have a harder flour uh flour, but um I I use it for my uh Liege Brioche because I don't need a lot of rise out of out of a waffle. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean like uh what do you use for brioche?
+
+[20:25] What do you like to use for brioche? Um I've been doing a combination of uh a couple things. I've been using uh Durham wheat to make it a little bit extra golden, so like 20% durum, and then I'll do something um with a good amount of protein to give it some strength, so either like a red fife or um redeemer or something like that. So you're going for a harder, you're going more traditional, like a harder thing, but you're trying to make actual brioche that rises up, I guess, right? Yeah, and I'll push the butter up to 85%.
+
+[20:57] So it kind of needs some of that protein in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, speaking of protein, uh, I'll get back to the pie in a minute, but uh and what we'll talk. Should we talk wheat later? I I finally got some uh Sonoran white, which I know is one of your favorite.
+
+[21:10] You want to talk about that later in the later in the program? You you drive wherever wherever you want to talk about. Well, so all right, so let's do the pie first. So I had Frederick Wheat, and I made the first recipe. You need to go to Pie Marches on, find that thing online.
+
+[21:26] I'm so glad I got a copy of that book. Monroe Boston Strauss wrote this thing before World War II and did one reprint afterwards. And this is the this pie book, which was brought to the attention of the modern world by Shirley Corriger, who we're gonna have do at the classics in the field at some point. Uh you you read her uh read her stuff, Adam? You like her work?
+
+[21:44] Yeah, she did a talk once at Fonte's in Philadelphia, and she's incredible. Yeah, right? And she's still going, she's still writing a book, I think, right now. That's so cool. Yeah, yeah, for real.
+
+[21:55] Um, and anyway, so uh he came up with a bunch of awesome techniques and recipes, some of which you've heard of, the chiffon pie, but then other ones that literally is his inventory he invented the chiffon pie, believe it or not. Uh, but he had this recipe for dried apricot pie and a gram cracker crust, and there are three things in this that are genius. First of all, he takes a standard pie crust, and his pie crust recipe is on point, right? Very on point, awesome. He does a full blend in, so none of these like coarse pebbly crap.
+
+[22:28] He's talking fully blend in the freaking fat into the flour, fully blended in. He's like, because he tells you how to make like a what he calls a long a long flake, which is kind of what you would think of as an American flaky pie crust. He's like, but the average person actually really just wants it to break under the fork nicely and not be really tough. And so he's like, just fully incorporate the the fat, which I thought was an interesting, was an interesting uh point. What do you think about that, Adam?
+
+[22:53] Yeah, kind of like are you talking about like a frassage style, like really push it onto the like stone or anything, and like really push in the butter hard the flour. Yeah, push it in hard. So it's like almost biscuicy looking, like hard. That's it. Yeah, and so I was like, dang, all right.
+
+[23:11] So and so he's like, in a way, like pretty modern in the 30s when he's when he's writing. So then uh you add, you know, you add it the um the water, you get it all, you get it all done. And he has a lot of interesting things to say about hydration and pie doughs, anyway, and about what wheat he calls out, he doesn't call out flowers, he calls out soft wheat flour, which is I thought cool. He called out a soft white uh white wheat flour. And uh, so then he this is a genius thing.
+
+[23:39] So he takes the pie crust, then he smashes up, makes graham crackers, and then he dusts his his board in gram crackers and then rolls it out in gram crackers, and you can either do graham cracker on one side or graham cracker on on both. So you have real pie crust with graham crackers rolled in. How sick is that, Adam? That's pretty sick, right? And then get this.
+
+[24:00] He takes the pie pan and he turns it upside down and he blind bakes it upside down on the on the pie pan, which by the way, makes forming the edge freaking trivial because you can just cut around the pie pan, right, to get rid of the to get rid of the extra, and then it doesn't puff up or anything, it just bakes perfectly upside down on the pie pan, and then as it after you cool it a little bit, you invert it into another pie pan. It because it shrinks as it cools, it fits in the other pie pan when you flip it, and you have a perfect blind baked thing without any freaking weights, without any docking, without means when you poke holes. Brilliant. Yeah, you're very freaking genius, right? And so then here's the here's the filling he does.
+
+[24:43] It's he does a dried apricot pie. So he takes dried apricots. I used uh California blendums because they're my favorite, soak them in water, hot water overnight, soak it overnight, blend it. He passes it through with Tammy, which of course I don't need to do because I have a Vitaprep. He didn't have a Vitaprep, right?
+
+[24:59] So I I blend the heck out of it, then you combine that with sugar, you hold some back, and you get your you make a cornstarch slurry with some of the apricot paste, and then you heat the rest of it up almost to the boil with some sugar, whip egg whites, some sugar to stabilize it, then you dump the cornstarch, bring it up to the boil, wait till the cornstarch clears out, fold it into the egg white mixture, then into the pie into the pie crust. And that's his apricot whip, and it is completely stable and delicious, and it freezes really well. That like that kind of like uh heat set meringue with cornstarch, the texture of that when it's frozen is sick. So I'm gonna go ahead and say that you uh our boy Monroe Boston Strauss, definitely worth reading. Someone should replace that sucker.
+
+[25:47] Yeah, it's good stuff, right? Uh Adam, I'm gonna need some help from you here because the name of the one that I used to use is out of my head. Ready? Uh Angelina uh Baltazar wrote in via Instagram a couple of weeks ago. I need some uh help with questions on blast chillers.
+
+[26:02] Do you have any experience with them? Yes. Uh, any ideas which manufacturers are best? And the name of it just went out of my head, the one that everyone uses, the overpriced European brand. What is it?
+
+[26:10] Do you remember, Adam? Oh god, no. I I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about though? It's like I can see the image of their logo.
+
+[26:17] I've used them, I've worked with them. Nastasi, do you remember? Yeah, uh, I can look through our email because I feel like we had someone request one. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, it's the one that Rationale partners with them.
+
+[26:29] They're way overpriced, but they're so awesome. And I've also got Electrolux, is it? No, I've used Electrolux, and so Electrolux. So, one of the things when you're getting a blast chiller is you got to ask yourself what you're gonna do with it most often. So uh a lot of people invest in the in the combi.
+
+[26:47] Do you know, John, which one I'm talking about? No, I hear I've never used a blast chiller. The the the combination combi oven blast chiller, and so what Electrolux used to claim was that they sized their blast chillers to fit their combi ovens because the the important thing in a blast chiller is the load size that fits into it. So you want your kind of oven and your blast chiller to match because it costs a lot of money. Blast freezers cost a lot of money, and if you have one that's too big, that's gonna take a lot of energy and it's gonna take up a lot of space.
+
+[27:16] But if you have it too small, then you can't chill your stuff down in time. Then kind of what's the point? But if your question is, do I it do I want a blast chiller? Answer is oh yeah. Blast chillers are freaking amazing, right?
+
+[27:31] Because they chill things down. I mean, you would not believe how much faster they chill things down than regular things. So we used to use them to um speed set our uh uh like if you have Paco Jack containers, we used to speed set our Paco containers in them. We would speed cool stuff down, we par freeze stuff before grinding in our blast chillers because the cool thing about blast chillers is they don't have to freeze, they can do a super fast, hard chill as well, and they can they they can also freeze uh a lot of times based on probe, so they can drop stuff down just where you want it, and they can handle immense amounts of vapor. So, like if you if you want to get French fries down really quickly, boom, you can put them in.
+
+[28:09] Or, for instance, bread, Adam, true, true or false, the faster you freeze bread, the less stale it's gonna be when you thaw it out. Very true. Yeah, so you blast freezing on bread that you're gonna freeze, or if if you I mean, you you know, if if you're one of these people who does par bake situations, like blast freezing is gonna be a lot better on par frozen stuff, but I can't remember the name of it. They're all relatively overpriced, but they're all amazing once you have them. Eranox, that's the name of it.
+
+[28:37] Just came to me. What'd you say? I just said that. Oh, I didn't hear you. I couldn't hear you because the way Zoom works.
+
+[28:43] Anyway, well, there you beat me to it. Yeah, Eranox makes good products, they're just really expensive. You know, I think they're all really expensive, though. Adam, do you ever did you ever any of the restaurants have one you really liked? Um, I think we had the Electrolux uh when I was working in Italy because they're made in Italy, those were probably like 12,000 euro.
+
+[29:03] Pretty pretty pricey. But we use it like cooking in reverse. Everything was timed as if you were baking it. It was kind of crazy. So we would do macaroons in the blast chiller.
+
+[29:13] Um, just to keep the vapor up, you know, keep the water off. So yeah, no, I love it, but who's got the money? You know what I mean? And the and and the power, they take a lot of power, but god, I love them. You know what?
+
+[29:24] The one thing I remember, we used to use the Electrolux, and this was I don't know, 10 years ago. Estasi used to go down and use it with me. Do you remember us sitting there, like pushing the button? And the problem with it was it like if you're impatient like I am, like you push two buttons, but you have to wait for it to go through its cycle because it to protect its compressor, like it had that program. And so we we would sit there and go, remember this?
+
+[29:47] Yes. And you used to sit there like, like, I depending on what mood you're in, either laughing at me or shaking your head in disgust, depending. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good, good, good times, good times.
+
+[29:59] But anyway, I love it. Uh all right. Uh uh Fabrizio wrote in uh via Instagram as well. I hope everything's okay. Wondering if you found any source of kamu camu in the United States.
+
+[30:09] Unfortunately, in the UK, it is all powder or capsules. Thanks in advance for your help. No, no, Fabrizio, I did not. Camacamo is a delicious uh, unfortunately, what they call a super fruit from South America, and because it's a super fruit, people do all kinds of terrible things to it other than preserve its awesome uh flavor quality. So I've only ever had crappy stuff here in the States.
+
+[30:31] Gotta go. I mean, I could be, you know, I'm happy to be proven false, but I've not found a good supply. Uh Josh wrote in Nastasia. Uh I'm sure you already did you already read it, or did you just pump it without reading it so it'll be fresh in your mind? Uh this is a DM.
+
+[30:46] So you read it. All right. So, but you you gave it to me to read, so it's a DM, but it's not really private. Right. Okay.
+
+[30:55] It's my DM. What? Yeah. Yeah. When are DMs private and when are they not private?
+
+[31:02] I don't think that's a thing. It's not? No. Okay. Uh it's a DM, whatever.
+
+[31:09] Okay, uh, this is uh from uh from Josh. Uh Jess, my wife, made us go vegan for a bit. Made you, huh, Josh? Made you. You just went vegan because she wanted you to go vegan.
+
+[31:20] She didn't force you, right, Stas, or maybe she did. I don't know. What do you think about that? What do you think about the wording? Like blaming it on the wife.
+
+[31:28] Derogatory, no? Yeah, right? No. I don't know. Uh Jess, my wife made us go vegan for a bit, and Indian cooking saved my sanity.
+
+[31:38] Josh, what do you think about that, Nastasia? Yeah, I th I told him that's a good idea. I hadn't thought about I hadn't thought about that cuisine. Well, are you are you reassessing your views on Indian cuisine in general, that spice mix? Because you're not a fan of in general American Indi like Americ Indian food in America, this the spice mixes that you normally get, you're not a big fan of, right?
+
+[32:01] Right. Yeah, I don't like curry. But I would like to look at the recipes and maybe not add the the spices, you know. Well, I mean to me, like that's just you you like that my mind just went like the like like the like literally the last sentence you just said in my head. I understand what you're saying, but it was just like my head just went a little bit.
+
+[32:21] Yeah. Yeah. What do you guys think? I actually don't under what was that suggestion? Because like I hear I would like to make the Indian food, but without the spices, and what I heard was I don't want to make the Indian food.
+
+[32:36] Oh I didn't want to say that, but that's exactly what I was thinking. Disgusts. I mean, you know. Alright, all right, Matt, I'll I'll just let that leave there. I'll let that go.
+
+[32:48] I love how like every once in a while, like Matt goes hard in the paint. Anyway. This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for Abbott Home Cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. For the past few months, Dave and I have been trying out Bent to Table subscription boxes, and I got the chance to sample some of the conservas they have available. Some of my favorite bend to table items were the squid in its own ink and the sardines and butter.
+
+[33:17] And I wish that I had gotten the faro that Dave got in his box. With New York and Connecticut stay-at-home orders in effect, it was really handy to have these panthey staples on hand. Another great thing about Bend to Table is that they've been supporting independent businesses impacted by the pandemic. Many of the ingredients in their subscription boxes are made by companies that do a lot of business with restaurants and needed to quickly ship their supply chain and sell more product direct to consumer. When you set up a Bend to Table subscription, you're supporting small independent producers and stocking your kitchen with delicious pantry ingredients.
+
+[33:52] Go to benditable.com to start your own monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN's programming. Serena writes in Khalifia Farms Barista Blend is the best oat milk in her opinion. It foams really, really nicely. Yes.
+
+[34:21] What do you think of it compared to the Oatly? No, I don't think it's I don't think it's close to Oatley, but it's fine. It foams. Foams? Yeah.
+
+[34:30] What's the difference in flavor having not tried the I don't mean? I think Khalifa's a bit chalky. I think oat milk can be very chalky, and there's different chalkiness levels. Well, they they add calcium carbonate to it, don't they? Which is in fact chalk.
+
+[34:45] Let me see. Let me uh I'll look at the uh I'll I'll look at their at their ingredient list here. Uh the one advantage of doing this stuff uh from your home is that my computer exists. Let me see. Oat milk.
+
+[34:59] Your iPad also exists in Brooklyn. Yeah, but there's no internet there, you know that. You know we don't have internet in the uh in the studio. Uh oat oat milk, sunflower oil, dye potassium phosphate, calcium carbonate, and tricalcium phosphate. I wonder why they add the carbonate.
+
+[35:16] It's gonna adjust the pH a little bit, but it also probably makes it a little whiter. I don't know. So there is in fact chalk in it. Yeah, well, there you go. So yeah.
+
+[35:27] I s uh back to Serena. I still prefer dairy milk and coffee, but uh that blend is a good tasty alternative. I find Oatly to be too thin tasting. What do you think about that? Yeah, I don't agree, but like what whatever she tastes, she tastes.
+
+[35:41] Yeah. Also, Dave has gotten meaner in quarantine, at least on the radio, but got your backgirl, Serena. Nice. Well we have one we have one, well, well, we have one more, Matt. Michelle writes in, Nastasia.
+
+[35:55] I've listened to the show for years. Tell Dave to stop picking on you. I'm a fan of the banter, but he's not being nice lately. Michelle, now listen, listen. Uh as Nietzsche famously said, you cannot look around your own corner.
+
+[36:08] So I don't know, you guys discuss. Maybe maybe it's because I'm not with Nastasi in person anymore. So like all of our frustrations get worked out, like, you know, on the radio. I don't know. No, I I I think that people enjoy the ribbing.
+
+[36:23] I just think well, based off this coming from two women, I feel like you can often mansplain things to me, like how I should feel about XY or Z or how I should think about, you know, what I'm doing, or air conditioning or oat milk, whatever. And that's probably the rub. Not the like, we can be really mean to each other, but it's it's the white mansplaining that I'm I imagine women aren't crazy about. It's got to be well, call me on event. Like you've I don't know.
+
+[36:56] This isn't. Well, call me on in real time so we can have the discussion then. We'll do it. Okay. Alright.
+
+[37:03] I mean, like I don't know, what do you like because I don't sense any more or less mean. So maybe, yeah, maybe Nastasi, maybe uh I think it's when I and I I know that women hate being called or hearing another woman be called crazy by a man. And so when you're like you're crazy, like that's it's like immediately derogatory, write you off. Yeah, so it's like a it's like a dog whistle word you're saying. Um like the word crazy is just like an instant.
+
+[37:35] It's just not great. It's like, yeah, it's not great. Yeah. All right, so what word can I use to describe what you know I'm talking about? In terms of like the way that you and I both are.
+
+[37:53] Uh I I well, I don't I think when you call me crazy, it's specific to I I don't know. I don't know, Dave. It's just not a good word. Well, help me figure out a new word. That's like we I don't want to get into it because it's the family show, but we've switched years and years ago.
+
+[38:13] I told you that there's certain, you know, if you're going to insult someone, I have preferred insults, right? We went through this many years ago. We can't get them on on on the air because they're all I mean, I'm switching one bad word for another, put it that way. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:29] But yeah. Yeah. Like uh I like I don't I don't like whatever, I don't want to get into it. I don't want to get into it. Switch the C word for the A word.
+
+[38:39] No, I mean, yes, obviously. No, but switch the B word for the A word. Oh. Like you, like you know, you used to use that more, and I was like, please just call them an A-hole. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:44] Yeah. I think we should degender our insults as much as possible. Although there are certain words that it's hard for me to let go of because the alliteration is so good. The C sucker word is an amazing alliterative English word. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[39:09] And so, and I know you love that word too, Nastasia. And so it's Yeah, one time a cop, a cop cut me off on my bike, and I said that word, and then I thought if he pulled me over, I would say I called him a cop sucker. And with that, okay. Yep. He's like, and that's better.
+
+[39:31] He's like, I'm it's just a little more confusing, but I still feel it's offensive. It's not, but he wouldn't like you, it's not a word in the lexicon that he can be that I can be pulled over for that I can like, you know. I'm pretty sure that like if they want to F with you, they're gonna F with you no matter what. You could probably say hello, and if they want to F with you, they will. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[39:54] Yes. Uh you want a question from the chat? It has nothing to do with bad words. All right, does it have to do with baking? I hope.
+
+[40:00] I hope, I hope. Uh no. Does Adam want to? Is this something that Adam wants to answer? This feels like a very you question.
+
+[40:10] Is it fast? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. All right, do it. How much convection do you naturally get from heated water without a circulator, i.e., a crock pot with a PID attachment? It depends on the temperature.
+
+[40:21] I wouldn't trust it for because the problem is is that you're gonna get movement of the of the temperature, but it's gonna stratify, especially once you add foods, you create dead zones. And so those dead zones are never gonna really even out in temperature. So there's always going to be temperature stratification, even with the convection that you get in water. So like uh measuring an empty pot of water is not a valid way to tell whether something's gonna cook evenly or not. Uh, you know, filling something with foods uh isn't valid.
+
+[40:51] And so I would always say circulate those suckers or stir them. It doesn't take a whole boat ton, but it uh it's definitely uh helpful. Now, if you're boiling something, hell yeah, boiling is you know convection on on steroids, so that's gonna go. So that's my that's my take on it. Good enough.
+
+[41:07] Is that good enough? Yeah. All right. Let's get some user questions for uh user, listener questions for uh Adam, and then uh you know I'll go off on all my weak questions at the end. Although I will ask you this right away.
+
+[41:19] So red fife is the darling uh red spring spring, right? Spring Adam? Yes. Yeah. So there's spring wheat and there's winter wheat, right?
+
+[41:30] And the like what they and you tell me why. Everyone says the Cadillac of bread yeast is the is the red spring. Why? Why spring and not and not the winter? Why is it the Cadillac?
+
+[41:41] Um, I don't know. I never really heard that before. I think as far as like the East Coast is concerned, that grain has just done well. Um there's certainly a lot of other options that can do even better, but I guess it's really um flavor. It's got a lot of good immediate, like you can grasp the flavor.
+
+[41:59] It tastes for lack of a better term, weedy. It just tastes like what you imagine grain to taste like. Um and you know, I think that's a good start for people. Um I will say that the grain itself does you have to, as from a farmer's perspective, you have to replant and get new seeds every uh two generations or sorry, every two seasons. Um otherwise it um starts uh break down and no longer be f useful for like bread making applications.
+
+[42:32] You have to keep getting used to eat every couple of years. So that's weird. Yeah. So my my feeling was that we're in a situ I baked a loaf with it, the same as I've been baking the Redeemer and the Warthog, you know, for red wheat stuff, right? Yeah.
+
+[42:46] And I was like, this tastes really good, but I'm not shooting myself in the foot to go get this wheat as opposed to the warthog or the redeemer. I'm not like, oh my god, if I if I don't have red fife again, I will never feel the same again. I thought it was good. But I think, you know, are you with me on this or no? I am.
+
+[43:04] That's why I was trying to kind of hint at it. Really just kind of tastes like weedy, very one-dimensional, kind of like, you know, if you were to compare it to just something store-bought, certainly an improvement, but uh it's not um not thrilling. Do you think this is another case where because it is an East Coast wheat and grown by East Coast farmers, that the East Coast food intelligentsia has pumped it up beyond what it necessarily maybe should be? Yeah, I think there's like um different Italian food or different Italian different different food mafias um for each part of the country. And I think the East Coast grain mafia is super into it.
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+[43:43] What do you think about the uh the Rhode Island food mafia? You like that? I do. I love uh Rhode Island um fried uh calibre. Yeah, what what about the alzatian food mafia?
+
+[43:55] That's like all the old school Alzation sheds like Jean George and and uh Andre Sultner and all that I love I love mini food mafias by the way love yeah I think they should have like a whole family get together like you know the the five families of uh food mafia yeah I know right that'd be amazing like like uh what was that what was that that gathering of the different mafias that got rated by the feds in like the 50s or 60s that's in every every movie you know what I'm talking about oh yeah like in analyze this or whatever like the started that movie yeah amazing uh all right so uh and we'll talk more about different wheats in a minute let's get to some questions Mary Swanson wrote in uh I've been developing a sourdough starter but how can I dial up the sour? The starter smells great but the bread could be more sour. Um well that's uh very easy because it just negligence will help there um I always try to go for the opposite not to um criticize your desire for more sour but I like the the grain to come up more um prominently so I am always constantly feeding my starter and and giving it new um new additions so that way the the pH um goes up or goes down rather um and the way to to make it more sour is to starve it to let everything um that's so to go past its prime spot of fermentation so when your flour and water mixture in your Levan has hit its peak use it after its peak um is one way so when it starts to fall down when it starts to fall down add it then into your into your dough and then also um higher temperature fermentation so if you ferment say above 77 degrees Fahrenheit you start getting into like 90 degrees it'll get really sour so higher temperature will do that. What about we're retarding in the fridge is that dial up or dial down the sour? Sour down dial down the sour.
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+[45:57] So all out out of the fridge fermentation if you want to be more sour. And then also you can improve do a longer um time you could also do less of your Levan and let it go longer. So instead of say adding 20% Levan to your dough do five percent and then instead of letting it ferment for six hours in total let it go for like nine or ten. And then it'll get really sour. I've noticed that when I pull my starter out if I do just one feed you know like uh like I I I keep I keep my starter in 150 so 50 50 50 50 of starter 50 water 50 flour right so uh if I do one feed and then wait for it then to to go up then if I dope that as you said it's super sour because it hasn't fully beefed up yet it's still kind of spent it hasn't fully like the yeast haven't fully come back yet but at that point right there if I don't want it to be too sour I actually dope it with a little bit of uh of uh saf red commercial yeast there and then I can do that bake and then I can feed it once more and then the next you know the next day make a full sourdough loaf that has no commercial yeast do you think that's a terrible idea I don't.
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+[47:15] I think that's a good idea um that's kind of how um a lot of bread making changed in Italy over the last um couple of centuries is really making basically you're making like a pool each um uh when you're using a little bit of the the the store bought yeast. Um but it still has that same effect, you still have like a nice flavor, but that's a good way to do it. Do you want to talk about like how people maybe it once it's there's a line? So that the thing people think about is they they think about acid in bread or in general as being kind of a uh a a one like one direction only, whereas like a small amount of acid is actually beneficial from a dose structure standpoint, but then a little bit more acid and it suddenly goes slack and you lose all structure. Like uh do you think people don't really think about you know how like when something's too sour and you pick it up, it's like and it has that weird feeling, you know what I'm talking about?
+
+[48:08] Oh yeah, definitely. So like is there any way to like are at once it's at that point, once it's gone so sour and she's lost all the structure in her loaf. Are you are you one of these people that will like put it out thin and dust a little bit of baking soda on it, roll it back up and pray, or are you just like you're just deal with the hand you've been dealt? Um I I at this point I um try to do everything to avoid that situation, but um are you talking about it after it's baked, like what what the bread looks like after it's baked um going through that process, or no, like you like let's say you throw it in the fridge and you uh retard it or you leave it because you think you have a 20, you think you have like an 18 or 20 hour rise, you come back and you smell it, it's obviously smells sour, it tastes sour, and when you poke it, it has that slack feel of of the acid killing the gluten, and you know it's gonna be a brick. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:03] You you know it's gonna be a brick. Like, do you just like like make three loaves out of that with a little commercial yeast, or do you try to like fix it somehow? Um, usually there's no way to fix it. So I'll take a piece of it and use it as a biga and then make another bread. Um, so say you've got uh one kilo dough that's just a little long in the tooth, and you know it's not gonna make a great loaf.
+
+[49:30] You can use that as your yeast culture for a bigger batch, and then maybe you didn't intend to have three loaves, but you can freeze those, and then it just kind of extends what you've got. So I'll take like that, something say it's overfermented, and you know it's gonna come out that great, and then use it to make maybe three or four loaves, um, and then freeze them. Right. So, like, you know how like in the old school, like in the 80s or whatever, like some San Francisco people who were going real sour, they wanted that hyper sour flavor. They would literally put some some soda in with their stuff in a risen bread.
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+[50:08] So you hate that. I don't, yeah, not for me. I think of it um like coffee and the first and second and third waves of coffee um in the since like the 90s or 80s, and how when you go to Italy or France or anywhere in Europe that has had a longer coffee or espresso culture, rather, you know, the sourness starts to go down in your flavor like enjoyment. Like I think that coffee tastes so good when it's like chocolatey or hazelnuty instead of just sour, and I think the American palate is still very new with some of these things as far as not as the existence in the US, but as far as it being prevalent and being in every household. So sour coffee, sour bread, you know, kind of amped up umami bombs, the all that stuff, I think will just continue to even itself out over time.
+
+[51:05] Matt Smith writes in, I live in Brazil with a very limited flour selection, maybe two brands, no bread flour, probably 10% protein max. Thought on adding a couple percent vital wheat gluten to improve texture. Uh and then we had someone already write in Robert saying in Rio, Robert Lacks said he can find higher higher gluten bread pizza flowers imported from Italy in Casas Pedro. Uh and then someone else wrote in and said they have the same flour sourcing problem in Portugal. Um they use vital wheat gluten.
+
+[51:36] I'm a fan of what vital wheat gluten. What do you think? And then they said, is there a limit on the percentage of gluten you should add? That that was from As I Please. Well, the the reality is that you can make bread with something at 8% protein, eight or nine.
+
+[51:49] Um, you know, you just are gonna sacrifice, or not sacrifice, you're gonna have to have a different perception on what you want the bread to look like. So you may not have this massive uh whole structure, you'll have a tighter crumb. But if you're in Brazil and you can find something that may have a lower protein content, but actually is um has some flavor, I would prefer to have the lower protein um tighter crumb with a lot of flavor. The wheat gluten um isn't, you know, it's not harmful, but it does, you know, there's there's no reason to increase the gluten other than really aesthetics, if you want the bread to be like lighter looking. Well, texture, I mean, people want that texture.
+
+[52:37] Yeah, I would say then then add it, go for it, or or get something imported. Um the Portugal thing is interesting because Italy is right there. Also, there's so many other places in Europe that grow um higher protein uh wheats, if if that's what they're looking for. Speaking of Portugal, what do you think of the cooked cornmeal Brella style breads? I think that's so cool.
+
+[53:02] I love them. I think they're great. Yeah. I haven't for for like for like five years, I thought bro was gonna become the next big thing, and then disappeared. I haven't seen it in years.
+
+[53:11] You? I haven't seen it either. Um you just reminded me of it and how much I like it. Yeah, it's delicious. Yeah.
+
+[53:18] Um anyway, all right. So uh so on gluten for a minute, uh, you know, I'm not above cheating, right? Like you're more of a purist, right? I mean, you are interested in getting the itness out of the grain, not just flavor, but texture and the whole the whole McGilla, right? I mean, that's the like so for me, like using gluten and like I did 100% rye loaf the other day.
+
+[53:41] Uh really finely ground rye, really, you know, put it through my 60 mesh, and uh and I doped it with gluten. It was delicious. Nice, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, full sourdough starter gluten, delicious.
+
+[53:55] I'm I'm for everybody doing their own thing. I think just for for my own personal philosophy, it's not even necessarily about being a purist, but about how exciting in the new world, if you want to call the Western Hemisphere, um we still don't have extremely defined um like food heritage because we've you know grew up in the industrial revolution, and if you want, you know, anything that you want, you can have. Um, but if we were to limit ourselves a little bit and not deprive ourselves of deprivation, we could treat get some regional foods. So I would love if New York was known for like rye and soft wheat, and when you go to the east coast or the northeast, and you're like, oh, the bread's like kind of like a more dense things, and so they put more dense things on it. And if you were out in the west and they were like big airy breads and lighter with you know lighter ingredients.
+
+[54:53] It would be cool if things took shape that way just by kind of going with what agriculturally makes sense. Um and that's why I'm uh I guess a purist in that sense is that if you if you start working with what is available around you, it just kind of works with the whole food system better. Yeah, you're gonna hate this then. I just uh literally for the radio, I uh I did an Eincorn uh an Eincorn loaf, and I know that you I know you love Eincore, but I jacked that sucker with gluten tubes. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[55:23] Like uh speaking of it, when you have a denser bread, counterintuitively takes longer to bake. Well, maybe not counterintuitively. I don't know what your intuition is, people, but it's like it takes a lot longer to bake something that's denser than something that's bigger. So it's not that um you'd think maybe that because the volume is bigger, it takes longer to get the the heat into the center to bake it, but the exact opposite is true. Like, isn't that the only thing that's c a little counterintuitive Adam?
+
+[55:47] Well, I guess the water conductivity, right? Isn't that the the way that the heat travels? The the modernist cuisine people make an interesting point. Uh the modernist bread, uh uh that I never really thought about is that and this to me that in the whole book, this was the most kind of interesting revelation, is it's all one big hole that's an open cell foam, and so yeah, the steam can like kind of rocket around on the inside and cook relatively quickly, which is I think kind of a cool cool thing. Um, uh as I please said, is there a max I wouldn't go over 10% on on the vital wheat gluten?
+
+[56:22] Um that's on something that has zero of its own gluten. I would not go above 10. Would you agree? If you were gonna do it, you'd stay below well, we'd stay well below 10, right, Adam? But you wouldn't ever go above 10.
+
+[56:32] Yeah, I don't think it's necessary. Yeah, all right. Uh Frank Mosca writes in sourdough final shaping tips would be helpful. How do I achieve maximum rise and a good looking loaf? Um, well, it's not gonna be related to the final shape.
+
+[56:47] Um, that's the most important thing. It's like the Escoffier saying, like, um, good sauces come from good stocks. It's the same with beginning with your starter, and then all the little steps along the way. Final shaping certainly will have an effect on your final volume, but um I would say if you had to put it in percentage-wise, it would contribute maybe 15% instead of uh the 85 along the way, um, which is all the other processes of fermentation before you get into final shape. So do you think the final the final shape, don't you think though it helps it stand up taller, not be a bigger volume overall, but to helps it stand taller by like stretching the theoretical gluten sheets around, or no?
+
+[57:36] You don't know if um that that would be correct as long as every other step beforehand got you to that point, because if you were to say um overwork the dough in the beginning, and overwork is gonna be relative as well, but say it was a dough that needed eight minutes of uh kneading, and you needed it for 10, um, because it's developed more strength, and as you're fermenting it, it's developing more strength through fermentation, and all the handling for pre-shape and maybe folds in between, you've put so much strength into the dough that it can't expand. So it's a it's a balance between extendability and elasticity, um, and which are two different things. And so to achieve the extensibility and have you have to have elasticity, so that's going to be a flower choice and also hydration choice and uh a technique choice, and then over the course of fermentation, um, you can create a scenario where the final shape would give you a bigger volume. But if any of those things are any of the decisions along the way are um, you know, they inhibit just general volume, then final shape won't contribute to it. So, really, the answer I guess would be for someone like him, what I think he's getting at is with all things considered that fermentation is excellent along the way, um, final shape uh to get your maximum volume, um, you're gonna need to make sure that the temperature is higher than what your bulk fermentations were.
+
+[59:29] So, after you've shaped, you can shape so many different ways, even just look on YouTube, um, but just in addition to what you've chosen for a shape, um, make sure your temperature is about 10 or 15% warmer than what your bulk fermentation was, and then you'll really get some volume. Cool. Josh writes in and says, Sifting. Has Adam experimented with the differences between only sifting with a coarse screen, like 24, that's real coarse, versus sifting with a 60 and adding back uh an equal extraction percentage. Curious if sifting only out the larger brand helps with bread structure while keeping some of the flavorful bits.
+
+[1:00:09] That's great. Yeah, tons tons of experience with uh sifting. Um, and I'm all about sifting because you can add it back in in any portion you want, and you can add it back in in clever ways, other than just putting it straight into the dough. Um, for example, I think sifting very fine, like on a 70, um, and getting a really nice powdery uh flour, and then making bread maybe in a way that someone could possibly be more used to, and then using the brand to line the basket and have it go all on the outside of the bread is a really cool look. You know, it gives it a darker color because the brand um caramelizes a different temperature.
+
+[1:00:51] Um, also I've taken the brand and used it in the Levan, which gives it a jump start, just natural yeast, it's living on the outside of the grain. Um, so sifting's great. Um, going super fine, you can you know you can pull off bigger flakes, uh more coarse. Um, really, the finer you go, the easier the dough will be to work with. Um, and then you can think of interesting ways to put brand back in if your goal is to get 100% inclusion, um, or you can use the brand for something else altogether, but it's uh it's a good thing.
+
+[1:01:28] I've been doing almost exclusively 60. How much more of standard kind of bread internal structure am I going to get out of a 70 versus a 60 mesh? Not a whole lot more. Um you'd notice it if you were trying to say make like pizza um or if you're gonna make puff pastry or something like that. Then it'll the the difference between 60 and 70 is pretty significant.
+
+[1:01:49] Um just because you'll uh you'll really see its ability to stretch really thin, which with bread you're not really going that by the way, people 60 is the number of lines per inch, 70s of lines per inch, which is different from the actual whole size. Meshes is a whole nother subject, which we don't unfortunately have time to get into, but they're they're really dumb. The way they're spec'd is dumb. Would you say it's dumb, Adam? Dumb.
+
+[1:02:14] Dumb. Uh Capri Sun writes in starch damage. Is it even worth worrying about as a home miller? Uh and why did you not mention micronizer mills in your book? Uh then this is a more technical question, but do it try to do it quick.
+
+[1:02:29] Does Ferrabon heat up flour a bunch? Is damaged starch actually beneficial for some Italian uses? How coarse are the rustic old world style grinds mentioned in your book? Thanks. Um hold on.
+
+[1:02:42] You have to repeat a little bit of that. All right, how coarse are the rustic old world style grinds? Um pretty coarse. Um definitely much more than uh how fine you can get with a home mill. Because you're talking about massive stones, usually moved by animals, um, by like donkeys and stuff like that, horses.
+
+[1:03:01] Um, so certainly more coarse. There's a lot more room between the stones for grain to slip by. Why not mention a micronizers? Um wasn't it necessary? Oh, well, you do actually mention them.
+
+[1:03:15] You're like, these are the mills, buy a stone one. You're like, these are the mills, but buy a stone one. That's what you said basically. Yeah. Right?
+
+[1:03:22] Well, it was basically based on my hope to get people to mill. So the um access to stone mills was easiest. Also, they produced the results of what I had worked with. So I figured if you were working with stone milling, and if I was working with stone milling, we could maybe be speaking the same language. So to give the user the best possible chance to have success with the recipes that I worked with.
+
+[1:03:52] By the way, when someone says they want to get on the same page with you, Nastasi and I like to say, but we're not even reading the same freaking book. Am I right, Sas? So uh, and lastly on that one, starch damage, worth worrying about as a home miller or not? Not okay. Paul Lee writes in, is it better?
+
+[1:04:09] Oh, you're gonna is it better to age your flour for a month or two after it's been milled? Years ago, I was taught, and you're gonna this I want you to go to ape like in a short but ape, short but ape. Years ago, I was taught that using green flour could give unpredictable or inconsistent results, such as faster fermentation rate or bucky dough because of the higher ends enzyme activity. Go to town. All right.
+
+[1:04:30] So um I grew up in a world of uh baking primarily that was uh I feel like the standard of everyone else in the last hundred years, you buy a bag of flour, follow a recipe, and you're always told that there's gonna be like differences, you know, and and there's this baker myth and lure that every day is a little different, you know, it's more humid out or it's uh colder today, and with the advancement of the products that I've grew up working with, I never saw the changes. And I really had to start to research what were these people talking about. It's like fresh compact yeast, 24 grams for a two kilo loaf or whatever is always the same. And whenever I got a flour that was a bread flour, it was always the same. Um, and what I realized is that people were talking about was fresh flour, and then that's where the baker as a profession certainly had um a lot more unpredictability um to it.
+
+[1:05:38] And then that that's where a lot of the skill level came in, where you weren't just dealing with an inert um predictable ingredient. So by not aging it by having it fresh, you certainly have something that will be different every single time. Um, and then that's really speaking to the skill level, um, not on whether you should or shouldn't do it. You should do it because it has more flavor, you should do it because it has more activity and it's more alive. You shouldn't do it if you're trying to have the exact same result and not um delve into training and delve into the craft.
+
+[1:06:19] Um, so it's really a craft question versus uh standardized question. So if you want to standardize something using flour that's fresh milled, if you're going to fresh mill it and then age it, you might as well just buy a product already and eliminate the milling because you've lost the benefit of it. You've lost the flavor and everything. So you know, eliminate that part of your process and make it easier. So if you're gonna go through the trouble of milling, then you might as well get the benefits of it, which are flavor, that activity, um, but then pay attention to the craft differently.
+
+[1:06:55] And I'm also gonna say for the kind of people that I think are the kind of people that listen to this show. Um look, I it I like bread made with commercial flour because I think it tastes good. However, it does not taste the same as this stuff. And if you haven't had like stuff made from fresh flour, you are going to love it. Does that mean you won't still love bread made with commercial flour?
+
+[1:07:23] No, but I will never use commercial whole wheat flour again. Like not ever. You know what I mean? Like I never will. Um, and and I think it's a hundred percent like learning about how the grains work and like learning about like how milling works and the actual parts of it and the flavors and the stuff you can get is a hundred percent worth any cook delving into.
+
+[1:07:47] Not that you're gonna do it for the rest of your life, but I mean, I think it's a hundred percent valuable. No? I do, I agree. Kevin writes in, we're almost done, we're almost done, we're gonna get all these goddamn questions. Kevin, what's the deal with sprouted grains?
+
+[1:08:01] Are they healthier or do they taste better different? They're uh really cool. Um there are different health effects, um, not significant enough where you should sprout every grain. You can over sprout, you can under sprout. Um that's how malt is made.
+
+[1:08:16] You sprout the grain and then toast it, um, and then you can extract it. So you can get sugar from it, you can make beer from it. Um, so many cool things about malting. Um, it's just like another layer and another um effect to a desired target. So when you're designing something, you make targets, and this is a a way to achieve certain goals.
+
+[1:08:38] So it's up to you and what you like to eat. But uh do do the is there too much amylase activity in that stuff? Do you have to kill it before you make the dough or is it fine? Yeah, no, you do. Um and you have to leave enough um basically available energy in the grain um that's not going towards plant production.
+
+[1:08:57] So that way you can use it to make bread. If everything goes to plant production, then you're gonna have a plant and no flour. So Matt, we're almost we're almost done, Matt. Joe Ankways writes in, I would like him to talk about feeding ratios for starters. This is an important one.
+
+[1:09:09] What effect is feeding twice the volume of starter versus other ratios? The whole process is new to me. So I'll really quickly can you hit both hydration level and percentage of starter to add when you're making the stuff. Yes, um, the higher the hydration of your starter, the faster and the easier that yeast can move on its highway. Um yeast travels through water uh in in your levan in your starter.
+
+[1:09:34] So the higher the hydration, the more open the lanes are for the yeast. Drier it is, the slower things will happen. Um so it comes down to schedule and uh also flavor is affected on how quickly yeast um is fed and is eating and digesting itself. So um it comes down to flavor, timing, um, and then what you're trying to make. So with something that's lower hydration in your starter, you're now adding less water into your dough.
+
+[1:10:07] So if you want to make, say, Panatone, that's that starter is usually 50% hydration because you're not looking to add a lot of water because there's gonna be a big addition of fat. Um, and then the emulsion um starts to get tricky. So you need uh maybe a little less water. Um, and then when you're going to make, say, just like a sourdough bread, you get the ability to add more water to your dough, and and that'll make it seem more moist. Um so fermentation time is increased by it being more wet.
+
+[1:10:40] Um, and then also you're adding more water when you're adding your starter to your dough. So it's uh increases hydration not just to the starter but to the dough. Um and I hope that answers it. Speaking of Panatone, last but not least, uh Jared Johnson wants to know where he can get a recipe for uh Bichola della Valkyolina. Um I think the alaimo brothers have answer for that.
+
+[1:11:06] If you look at Masimo I Limo and La Calandre, they have like a recipe bank online. They should have uh a recipe for that. I've never been to, I've never been that north in Italy. I've never been to Voltaire. Anyway, I hear it's really super pretty.
+
+[1:11:18] So uh I'm gonna leave you with this. Adam, I know one of your favorite grains to make breads with, and I want you to talk about it and tell you my experience in a sec, is the um Sonoran white wheat. And uh what's interesting about this particular wheat is it's from the Sonoran Desert, Hayden flour mills, they charge a lot, don't they, Adam? These people. They really do.
+
+[1:11:38] Yeah, they charge a lot. However, the interesting thing to me about this wheat is for years, uh years, I would trash talk uh flour tortillas. And a friend of mine's family is from New Mexico for like they've been like 300 years, like they, you know, like old school New Mexico, like s old school Spanish speaking New Mexico, their family's been there since before it was uh English speaking they're like been there forever anyway he was like you're being a jerk flour tortillas are kind of they're they're what we grew up on there so it's not just like like a white people thing showing up and making Tex Mex stuff out of it. Right. And what I read was that the this uh Sonoran white wheat is the wheat that caused the creation of the flour tortilla and what's interesting about it you were talking before about elasticity versus extensibility.
+
+[1:12:32] It doesn't form gluten but it has a high protein so I just made last night flour tortillas with it lard and uh Sonoran white and oh my god were those good flour tortillas. Pretty nuts. And then just the inherent flavor of the sonora is so good. It's got like um it's mellow but there's like this um for lack of a better term like creamy um creaminess to it that's really unique. It's really good.
+
+[1:12:57] Well when the water hits it especially when I had the lard it strangely almost took on a cereal milk smell to it like it had this kind of intoxicating smell to it the dough did. You know and it's not even that hard to it's the hardest one to mill so far has been Eincorn. That stuff's a pain to sift. Yeah. It's super oily is it super oily why is it such a pain?
+
+[1:13:18] It's a pain because it's a really hard grain just in general. So when you're when you're putting it through the mill it's you know unless you have like a 10,000 pound mill you're stressing that. And then also its ability to um absorb water, like its starch availability is lower. It's starch quality, I guess you could call it, is not as high as a lot of other things. So when you put it through the sifter, it's almost like um like pebbly, you know, it's like uh it's just yeah, and it clogged my it was a pain.
+
+[1:13:55] Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, but you know, and the dove also felt weird. Now I told you I cheated, I added gluten, but it had a weird play-do-y-yeah, it was weird, dude. It's a weird tell you later how uh how it tasted. By the way, Stas, true or false, you don't like Panatone, correct?
+
+[1:14:12] Uh I do. I do like it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:14:15] What's the one that you hate then? What's the traditional Italian bread that you don't like? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else that doesn't like panadone.
+
+[1:14:22] John, is it you that doesn't like panadell? I haven't had good panettone. I don't want to say I don't like it. I haven't liked white paper. All right.
+
+[1:14:30] All right, Adam, how about this? Uh I know Matt's gonna kill me, but how about this? Panatone on the way out. The giant panotones, just a gimmick, right? Um, it's not better being giant, definitely a gimmick.
+
+[1:14:43] Nah. And but can you how do you bake something that big? Because like some of the big ones, they're like they're like the size of a table. They're crazy. How like like how does that even work?
+
+[1:14:54] Why did you do that? I know. It's it's like the same reason why they do the giant mortadellas in Bologna. They do like the thousand kilo ones and stuff that are just like huge. It's just for they're usually for a sagra for a food festival.
+
+[1:15:10] Um that's what they're how much would stash how much would you love to put me on the meat slicer that could do one of those giant mortadellas and just be like shunk, shunk, chunk, chunk. That would be the worst, right? Like sitting there, like which which way, which direction would you rather get fed into the giant mortadella meat slicer? Oh, head first. I don't even shoe with a head in this situation.
+
+[1:15:28] You go head first? No, I don't see you with a head in this situation. Oh, I'm already headless? Torso, yeah. Just the well, okay.
+
+[1:15:40] Oh, oh my god. So you're saying put me, put my back against the slicing thing and go that way. Oh, ouch. That's rough. That's rough.
+
+[1:15:51] All right, last, lad, real last. I know that you also do meat meat curing. Okay, so people, people. Vertical slicers are the original slice. The original machine slicer was developed by WA uh W.A.
+
+[1:16:04] Van Burkle, and it's a vertical slicing machine, and the carriage that holds the meat pushes the meat across, and you slice piece by piece. As opposed to what we in the United States typically use is called a gravity fed slicer, where it's on an angle. This is what you see at your local deli, and gravity plus a little pusher thing pushes the meat into the blade. The problem is is that as you push into the blade, the stuff near the bottom squeezes out and cause creates what's called a heel. The meat heels out, and every once in a while you need to rotate your meat or pull it out and trim that heel off because it doesn't trim evenly otherwise.
+
+[1:16:36] Now, vertical slicing, everyone says it's better, it doesn't smear the fat, blah blah, slower, bigger. But is there a way to feed the most of the ham in? I had a vertical slicer once I used it, I was like, what am I gonna do with the rest of this freaking ham? Because you need to have a whole bunch of stuff to hold on to to get a vertical slicer to work properly. Is there a workaround, Adam?
+
+[1:16:55] Um with the vertical slicer, well, there's a couple theories. Some some people think that the stuff that can't go through the slicer is then to be used for other applications and not be sliced, i.e., like uh a broth or something like that, or you're just used for a different thing. Um they do get tricky. Those Berkle slices are pretty dangerous. Um I I don't have any other hack other than just to use those bits that you can't get into the slicer just for a different application.
+
+[1:17:24] Yeah, yeah. Well, Nastasia is Nastasia is at least kind enough to decapitate me before she puts me on the giant buckle. Well, Adam, thanks so much for coming. Enjoy having you on. Maybe we'll do another uh bread session at some point in the future, you know, until you uh get and for people right in.
+
+[1:17:40] Adam wants to do bread car talk, bread talk. Uh this time we didn't have people reading the questions, though. That's what we forgot to do, Nastasia. That's my favorite. I know, I know.
+
+[1:17:50] Why did we forget? We're just done. We didn't forget. We we just talked about it too late. But yeah.
+
+[1:17:58] And also it's really hard to get a gaggle of people to like do what we did last time. Oh, yeah, because they're all complaining that as they're working from home that they can't just uh read like a 30-second question. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.
+
+[1:18:14] Alrighty. This has been Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:18:27] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:18:50] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Bend the Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. Learn more at bendthetable.com. That's B-E-N-T-O-T-A-B-L-E.com. And when you use code H R N for a new subscription, you get $20 off, and we at HRN get $10. HRN is offering complimentary business memberships to 50 black indigenous people of color owned food businesses this summer.
+
+[0:28] The deadline to apply is July 31st. Each business membership, a $500 value is an advertising opportunity that will allow businesses disproportionately impacted by COVID 19 to connect with HRN's listening community and promote their work. To apply and review the terms and conditions, go to heritage radio network.org slash B I Z. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:06] You know, Tuesdays like noon. I'm in the lower east side of Manhattan. We got Nastasia DeHammer Lopez chilling on the Long Island Sound in Stanford, Connecticut. And we have a Connecticut person who is currently in Murray Hill. Uh John, how are you doing?
+
+[1:26] And Matt in his Brooklyn boothlet, right? Yep. What kind of what kind what does your booth look like? Do you have you put up like uncomfortable foam in your area so that it feels like crappy? No, when I want to do that kind of thing, I get into the closet.
+
+[1:41] Uh I the only modification I made is I turned off the fan, which was pointed directly at me. Yeah, okay, so I think we should all like chip in for Matt to get some of that like triangular foam crap. You guys know what I'm talking about? Like, it's like really it's like the same stuff as like egg crate packing, but like really expensive. You guys know what I'm talking about?
+
+[2:01] Yeah. And we'll yeah, we'll glue it all to the inside of his closet, and then we'll we'll put like a layer of foam on his door and just cut out a hole for the doorknob, but make the hole just small enough that it's still hard to get to the doorknob, and then we'll have like a hot incandescent light in there, and and like no ventilation at all, and then he'll feel at home like a true engineer, right? Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. Uh it would be better if it was uh actually that might be better because I'm currently in my booth slash living room slash, you know, where we eat slash the only comfortable place to sit that's not my bed, because this is a New York apartment and we only have you know one room.
+
+[2:41] So you ever you ever uh you ever pine for those dank moldy smelling like foam hot box rooms? No, this is so much this is so much better than that or like sweat is dripping into the pots and sliders, you know, you don't love you're not doing it right if you haven't shorted a piece of electronics with your with your sweat. Now let me ask you a question, because uh how how old are you, Matt? I am 33. Okay, so have you ever had to use like the old school real like sliders and pots kind of boards or no?
+
+[3:18] I've never worked on a fully analog system, no. Yeah, because like people used to like do are you familiar with the old school like sound man mullet hair haircut like from the 70s and 80s? Yes. Of course. Before I knew what a mullet was, where I, you know, where I was from, we just called it the sound man because they're in order to become a sound, and it was always dudes, right?
+
+[3:43] So in order to become a sound man, you needed to have that haircut. No other haircut was allowed other than the Soundman haircut. And if you bought that person a beer and asked them about sliders and pots. Like not pot the drug pot the potentiometer. Like they would go on for hours about how much they hated a particular like brand of slider because of the noise it would make when they were sliding up and down.
+
+[4:14] You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I don't think that's something that's lost. In other words like I think that's something that can be chucked in the dustbin.
+
+[4:21] I don't think that's one of those things where we when I was a boy we had to we had to buy a hundred dollar slider so that the single wouldn't get mad that you heard crackling when I when I push the vocals up and down. You know what I mean? Yeah totally although there are times when I'm given like a really fancy piece of digital equipment and the fact that you cannot tell what the hell is going on like you cannot trace a wire from place to place to find out what to do that does start to drive you nuts when you're trying to troubleshoot it's just like you just jam on the the one button that you have display you know because it's just a complete black box. Yeah yeah yeah yeah so that that does get frustrating and I'm not even a child of the analog era really yeah yeah if I had infinite money and was still playing music I would buy one of the nice old I I I'm that bass guy that I love that those old bass amp sounds. I actually, my favorite, well, this is his last of the non cut last of the sound engineer stuff.
+
+[5:21] But are you familiar with um are you familiar with uh Aguilar cabinets? No. They used to make a tube bass amp cabinet that just sounded so rich and fat that I would just sit there. I used to rent space. This is so sad.
+
+[5:36] New York used to have a bunch of districts. So like I lived in the in an illegal loft in the Garment District, and just below was where all the recording, uh like a lot of the recording stuff for like not like I'm sure rich people recording stuff was there, but like right down there and to the left of it, I used to practice for $20 an hour. My band would play in in the room where Beastie Boys recorded ill communication, right? So like all that stuff was like just there, and you could rent it. And we used to go to this, like what at the time we thought was super fancy place called Ultrasound in the 30s that was it's now closed, and you could just for like you know, not that much money an hour, plug into like a $10,000 bass cab, and Aguilar made my favorite bass cast and it was all analog, but now Aguilar I think is still in business, but they all do it with uh with digital sound processing now.
+
+[6:25] So I don't know. I don't know if anything's lost, but man, just plugging into that cab and hitting a bass string. Jeez, you know what I mean? I can still feel it. I I do know because I play I play bass too.
+
+[6:36] Yeah, yeah. Some about people who like guitar people don't understand what a bass player feels when they hit that string and get that tone. You know what I mean? You think that's true? I don't know.
+
+[6:50] I didn't anyway. I do as a sound person, okay. Last last thing. Do you know how like the sound person we just talked about their haircut? You know how they don't care about bassists at all?
+
+[7:01] So like they'll sit there and like the guitar player, like they'll work with their effects, they'll like tune the stuff up and down, they'll like do all this stuff, and the bass player, they're like, put it through. Okay, people. Back in the day, there was people whose amps were actually amplified with microphones. So like guitarists, a lot of the times, they would go direct, it's called direct, right? And then they would also have an amplifier with a mic that they would put on so that you could get the amplifier effects, like all the feedback and all that garbage.
+
+[7:27] Right. And every sound person I had to deal with was just like, put your bass into the direct box. I'm like, I don't want to put my bass into the freaking direct box. And then you get that crappy flat board sound because they don't care about your sound. You familiar with this, Matt?
+
+[7:41] Yeah, absolutely. That's that's what you do. Yeah. Weasels. So, John, Nastassi, you cooked anything interesting this week?
+
+[7:50] Food is fuel to me at this point. Oh God. You see, this is what I'm saying. You're not like selling, if you want to sell people on your new lifestyle, you should be caring about like, because isn't what you used to say is that that was the entire problem you had with uh a lot of uh these dietary regimens was it is that they become food as fuel people and then did not enjoy what they're eating anymore. Is it just because you need people dietary regimen?
+
+[8:17] It's because when you have to buy your own ingredients, cook your stuff, eat it alone, do the dishes, and then do it all over again in six hours. You're like, okay, this is I'm bored. This is awful. I mean, I think it's the eating, is it's the eating alone part. It's the it's the eating alone that definitely does this to you.
+
+[8:39] Right. Because it's not the it's not the I mean the the cooking, I mean that's that's normal, like having to cook all the time, it's just repetitive cooking for yourself. That's got I'm sure that weighs when I when I cook for myself, I don't give a crap. It's like pasta with basically almost nothing on it every time. When I cook for myself, it's two poached eggs, toast.
+
+[9:00] That's it. Like if dinner for myself. If it's gonna be dinner, and if I'm splurging a can of sardines. Like a hundred percent of the time, but mainly also because no one in my family wants to eat that. So when I'm eating alone, I mean I'm sure after like a month, I would be like, okay, I'm done with the poached eggs for now.
+
+[9:17] You know what I mean? Yep. You guys like poached eggs? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:25] Yeah. Like a lot. Not as much as you. I like them a lot. Like a lot, a lot.
+
+[9:33] I like them. I like them runny on toast. Hey, John, do you still have a girlfriend? You're not eating alone, are you? I mean, I have a girlfriend, but I see her twice a week, so that's still five other nights of the week where I'm here by myself, miserable doing dishes and cooking and worrying about using up all the ingredients because you can't buy right amounts of food for one person.
+
+[9:53] Um, Nastasia, can I can I do the your mom trolling or no? No. I told you no. Okay, okay. I won't.
+
+[10:02] But like, but I would just say for the listening crew that John is doing a variant of the Lopez family trolling technique. Also, John, why do you only see her twice a week? What's the uh what's the wow? You're getting personal. I like it.
+
+[10:23] Go. Um, yeah, I don't know. I guess that's just kind of the way things have been going. I don't know. We've only been dating for like well, I guess four months now.
+
+[10:33] Oh, just before the just under the wire. Yeah. Wow. Just four months now. Um, yeah, I don't know.
+
+[10:40] I'm sure more frequent visits will start happening soon, but I don't know. That's just like the routine that we've established so far. How many people do you think had a first date in early March and then were like on the fence and now are kicking themselves for not just taking that second date right then, just so that they'd have they'd have like, you know, something like that. Or they're kicking themselves for having that second date. So you're wait, so you think there's as many people who are like trapped in a COVID relationship than there than they're you but you do you think it's equal amounts trapped in COVID relationship versus people who had the possibility of a relationship but didn't seal the deal before the COVID?
+
+[11:23] You think it's equal or which one do you think wins? I have heard that people who are trapped that there are more people trapped in COVID relationships that want out very badly, and that divorce rates are divorce rates went up in China during the quarantine, and they are predicting the same. And also like a bunch of divorces have been filed in these four months. So pretty cool. Open markets.
+
+[12:01] It's still state to state, right? So you have to it like you have like some states, it used to be back in the day that you'd have to like wait six months or you know, something like this anyway, uh, for a no fault. You know what I'm saying? I'm sure this stuff's changed. All that crap is archaic, you know, but who knows?
+
+[12:18] I don't know. How the hell did we get on this? That was an amazing question. You're asking what we've been cooking recently and food is fuel. And then we've got that in there.
+
+[12:27] Oh, yeah, yeah. You've been you've been cooking uh you've been cooking sadness and then eating the leftovers. I don't eat leftovers. She's been throwing the leftovers away. And cooking fresh sadness every day.
+
+[12:42] Nastasi's like, I want my sadness fresh. Can I have one thing? Can I just have my sadness be fresh every day? Speaking of sadness fresh every day, Nastasia Lopez, let's talk about Amazon. Ugh, you go.
+
+[12:56] No, you're the Amazon. It's work on. They are out of stock uh in Searsol's. Wait, wait, out of stock what? Again.
+
+[13:04] Again. And two months ago when Fallon showed this year's all on the on his show. I was like, hey, FYI, you might see a surge. Also, everyone is inside cooking, you might see a surge. They ignored me.
+
+[13:16] And now they're out. Did you ever tell the the listening crew how you engineered that one? The Fallon? Yeah, I think I think we talked about it. I just heard a quick refresher.
+
+[13:31] Everyone is quarantining, obviously. Well, I don't want to give away how I do it, because then everybody will do this with their product. But everyone I mean that's the good that's the good part of the story. First of all, I don't want to alarm you guys. Nastasia can find out where you live.
+
+[13:46] Anyone can find out where anyone lives. You will do it. Like even for the smallest, like either a thing that you want or infraction, you will do it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[13:57] Also, Nastasia never pays for this information. She's not one of these people that signs up for your easy to find where a celebrity lives because they usually buy a gigantic house and then curbed or some other outlet will be like, look who bought the house in this neighborhood, and then they give you a tour of it with photos and then the address. So easy. You also searched out the address before they had to give it to us of some of our Kickstarter trolls. Be honest.
+
+[14:25] You can find this information. You are a finder of information. When we were like, who are most of the people that are being assholes? Then we found out that they're mostly in Canada. I prefer buttheads.
+
+[14:36] But the the other thing is uh that and this goes back to when Nastasia and I first met the anti-Semitic van driver, right, was telling us that he could find anybody, right? Silas, remember this? Yeah. Because why? What do they not give up?
+
+[14:57] No one ever gives up their car. That's right. He's like, people, he hasn't talked like this. People they give up their family, they give up their kids, they give up their dog. They always keep their car.
+
+[15:09] Always keep their car. So Nastasia filed that away. She's like, first thing I get rid of is my car. Yeah. Then the family.
+
+[15:16] First the car, then the family. But you think he's right? I mean, he's probably right. Just because he's a vicious anti-Semite doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to find people based on them keeping their cars. I think he's right because even though like I have this really crappy car right now, but I would still drive it to the ends of the earth before I settle on a new one.
+
+[15:39] That's just because you're cheap as hell, like me. No, I no, I'm not. I just you don't love the car, you hate the car. I hate the car. Nastasia's uh side view mirror is duct taped on.
+
+[15:49] No, I cut it because I thought I found the part and I was like, great, I can get rid of it because the part just arrived today, part doesn't fit, so awesome. So you duct tape the new part on, or do you send it back and get a different new part. I don't know if I can ever find the part. Whatever, this is boring. But the the issue is is that Nastasi can't get her car freaking inspected because it doesn't have a side view mirror.
+
+[16:10] No, that's not the thing. It's something to do with the check engine light that somebody told me I can disconnect if I go to this place in Queens, but I haven't been because then COVID started. So an illegal place in Queens? Yeah. Where they just disconnect the light.
+
+[16:23] Hey, did you see what went on last night? The fireworks in every single borough. I could see the ones from Coney Island from here. No, Macey. But then people were like, hey, what about people with PTSD that are like, oh my god, you know, like they're not letting you know when it's popping up, what time, where the thing is, are they doing it in conjunction with all the illegal ones?
+
+[16:54] Because like there's been a there's been a surprise fireworks show every hour on the hour from like 8 p.m. till two in the morning every night in my neighborhood. I thought it was the police doing it, according to some of your articles. I have heard that, but I don't know why the police would do that. I I just don't understand what the thing is.
+
+[17:13] Nobody's afraid of it. I mean, maybe someone who has specific fears, but like no one is like, oh my god, somebody's getting shot. It's like there's the fireworks again. You know what I mean? So, like, I don't understand what you would get out of it.
+
+[17:26] It's also happening here too, which is really weird. Like, even at like 1 a.m., 2 a.m. What I heard was is that normal sales of fireworks was extremely low this year because of COVID. And so the big fireworks places like Phantom have just like slashed their prices, and so people have gone in with pickup trucks and just picked up pickup trucks full of this stuff and have come in and like second wave black market sold them in cities where you can't normally get them. That's what I heard happened.
+
+[17:56] Cool. So anyway. I mean, I love fireworks, but like, you know, I don't know. Nastasia wanted to get some illegal fireworks, but at this point, everyone's got illegal fireworks. So I think we should wait till next year when it's gonna be cool again.
+
+[18:09] I disagree with you, but whatever. But I thought you hated things that other people liked and had. I don't experience what you're experiencing here. Like I'm like it's not insane, but whatever. The best consumer fireworks show I've ever saw for the Fourth of July.
+
+[18:24] And I guess by the way, is this our Fourth of July episode? Yeah. We don't have any Fourth of July related like grilling questions. But the best Fourth of July ever for me was I didn't see any real fireworks shows, but we went to Coco Beach to take the kids to Cape Canaveral to see the Space Center, and we were on the beach on Fourth of July, and the entire coastline all the way up and down was a constant barrage of consumer grade fireworks and people just hanging out. So it's pretty cool.
+
+[18:55] That was you know, not the best fireworks. There was no grouchy style smiling faces exploding or whatever. Do you like the smiley face explosions? Yeah. Yeah?
+
+[19:04] You you like the picture fireworks? Mm-hmm. What's your favorite? What's your favorite firework? I think the raining down the white, the white like weeping willow type things.
+
+[19:14] I agree. You know what I you know what I like though? I like the one where you get the the the poom and then like a second later, it starts from a little bit out from the center. You get the foosh with the rain of white uh sparkly. Those are great.
+
+[19:29] Yeah. What about you two? What do you think? That sounds great. My my best fireworks display was very similar to yours, actually.
+
+[19:37] It was in Ocean Shores, Washington, and people just went, it was like a war zone on the beach with consumer grade fireworks just like up and down for God knows how long, and people just firing them off in every direction, and the wind was whipping in off the ocean, so they weren't going in the directions intended. It was nuts. Yeah, yeah. I have you ever when you were a kid, do you have bottle rocket fights? I did not, but that's my brother would have been doing that kind of thing.
+
+[20:05] Yeah. So a friend of mine, uh, you know, who has a house in, I think it's uh right outside in Naples. So like I forget what the celebration is, but it's like they have a thing where they're fighting, they're firing at each other, like across the street and across the like plateaus, like large fireworks at each other. That would be fun. Yeah.
+
+[20:25] And then uh uh Andy Rickard told me that there is a festival in the north of Thailand, also I believe once a year, I forget where it is, where people make their own rockets, but get this. They all try to vie for like the biggest kind of rocket, and if you look at it online, these rockets are not like what you and I would consider to be like a normal rocket. They're like they're like 10 feet long and like and like 10 inches across and on giant stakes, and every year somebody dies. Wow, yeah, they're huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:02] And you see them, and you see them light off, and like they light it, right? And they're lighting it like they're just lighting it. It's not like they're like behind some blast shield, you know what I mean? With it, they're lighting it, right? And then like, ooh, a fin snapped off.
+
+[21:14] And then you'll see this like giant homemade rocket, corkscrewing. If you've ever made a homemade rocket and had a launch go bad, you know what I'm talking about. Now multiply the kinetic energy by like a factor of like a hundred or two hundred. Crazy. I would love to see that.
+
+[21:31] These are kind of like the rigs that people who want to like project themselves into space to see that it's a flat Earth would rig up. Well, a guy just died recently doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[21:42] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not gonna say okay, but okay. You know what I mean? You know?
+
+[21:49] I mean, it's dar it's Darwin award territory for sure. Yeah, you know, look, I feel look, I just whatever. I don't think it was a uh it was not a cause worth dying for. Uh okay, from oh, uh food related. I went uh cherry picking for the first time ever and had my and obviously since I've you know quote unquote kicked my allergy this weekend for sour cherries, and uh they had the they weren't technically supposed to pick because they they're a couple days away from being at peak ripeness, but I picked a bunch of Montemorensi uh sour cherries, and they're the I don't know how if that's how you pronounce it, but they're uh like a lighter red, very small sour cherry, and they are delicious.
+
+[22:32] The entire time I was there though, Jen, and I I I didn't even know I was gonna go. I was dropping uh my younger son Dax off upstate, and I was like, see if we're near a place. I went the entire time Jen was like, stop eating the cherry. Because you know, she's the one who had to take me to the hospital whenever I had a problem with the cherry. She's like, okay, you're done, you're done, you're done.
+
+[22:50] So I really I kind of did her wrong. I kind of made her feel very nervous for eating all the cherries. But then I came home and pitted like uh six pounds of cherries, frozen down, ready to make some pie. Some pie. What do you get what kind of cherry pie do you guys like if you like cherry pie?
+
+[23:09] No thoughts? No thoughts. I don't like pie. What do you say? What do you say, Stuzz?
+
+[23:14] I don't like pie. Wait, and Matt, you don't like cherry pie? I don't I don't. I mean, I just I will eat some, but I don't make it and I don't seek it out. Okay, I never I've always loved cherries.
+
+[23:29] Like until I was 30 when I had to stop eating them. But I never liked cooked cherry products. So I'm hoping that by picking my own sour cherries, and I know exactly the flavor profile that they have because I chose the specific tree that had the flavor profile I wanted, right? Because people, fruit is different tree to tree. That I can make a cherry pie that I actually love.
+
+[23:49] That I would I would be super happy if I could do that and have a cherry pie that I loved, but whatever. I'm thinking of doing a like a almost like a chiffon, like a cherry whip, as well as a more standard cherry pie. What do you think about that with a graham cracker crust? Like a cherry chiffon pie with a graham cracker crust. Except for you, Nastasi, because you don't like pie.
+
+[24:06] What do you think? It sounds good. Yeah, it sounds good. If only you had a pie cookbook, you know, to help you out with recipe. I know, but if I talk more about my favorite book, Pie March is on, people will say that I'm uh perseverating, so I won't start.
+
+[24:21] Is there no kind of pie that you like? I like hot fruit. But it's not hot. You serve it, you let it cool down, otherwise it's too runny. Yeah.
+
+[24:31] So there's only fruit that was at one point hot. Yep. Lemon meringue pie? No. Key lime pie.
+
+[24:40] Never cooked. No, I know. I've had it all. I don't like it. So my my uh stepmother also said that she doesn't like cooked fruit, but it's more than that.
+
+[24:52] You don't want fruit as a dessert. No, I like fruit as cooked fruit is it's cooked fruit, I guess. And if it's hot, I really don't like it. But cooked fruit, don't really like. What about fruit that's in ice cream?
+
+[25:04] No. Huh. What about sorbet? Sure. Huh.
+
+[25:13] Okay. Uh speaking of citrus and sorbets and lemon meringue pie. Scott wrote in via email, and this is gonna be for Nastasia to answer. Uh Dave Hammer, Matt, and John. Love the show, have a citrus question.
+
+[25:27] My wife and I have three old cumquad trees here in Santa Monica. We decided to make a lemon cello variant like Nastasia did. Our kids picked the fruit, and my wife and I mashed about 60 cumquads into a liter of vodka. That's a lot. Well, I guess how much of that weigh?
+
+[25:43] I guess it depends. Uh it's been sitting for five weeks. Any tips on what to do next? Hope you guys are staying uh uh safe out there. Scott, what do you got, Sus?
+
+[25:52] We're supposed to taste the stuff my dad said, but you're never coming out here, so we should just no, I should just taste it. Why you can send us some. Why okay? Sure. That makes sense.
+
+[26:03] Booker's been there. Yeah, why why don't you guys ever come here? I don't go anywhere. What the hell are you talking about? Just went cherry picking.
+
+[26:11] Okay, whatever. I had to drop Dax somewhere. Dax went somewhere. Dax has a social life. Anyway.
+
+[26:17] Um, and he he quarantined himself for like this immense amount of time so that he could enter a new pod of people who have self-quarantined out of New York City. People who are from New York City who have left for the quarantine are petrified of people who are in New York because we're still seen as like this like weird contagion. You know what I mean? Um but anyway, so are you gonna help Scott out here or not? No, I think we messed up this our stuff.
+
+[26:47] Like if I were him, I would put another liter of vodka in it. Well, the main mistake that you made, I think, was instead of using sugar, you use simple syrup. Yeah. Right. And you should have like ABB, what did you say it was?
+
+[27:04] Like 21? No, lower, because you added a lot of simple syrup. Here's first of all, okay. If I, you know, look, I would weigh, I would weigh the amount of product you're putting in, and then you can guesstimate how much water is gonna be at the end of how long it's been sitting. What do you do?
+
+[27:22] Do you he did you mash your stuff or are you a sliced? What did you do with your stuff? So we put the peel, I peeled them all, but the peels in the vodka and then squeeze the juice and put the juice in. Okay. Okay.
+
+[27:36] I would weigh the the peels aren't gonna change the ABV that much. They will absorb uh the stuff, but I don't think they're gonna change the ABV an intense amount. Did you squeeze them afterwards? The peels? Yeah.
+
+[27:48] Yeah, yeah. I don't think it's gonna change an intense amount. Obviously, the juice is gonna change it an intense amount. And if you assume that you're shooting for a lemonade style of sweetness, acidity balance, lemons are gonna balance at roughly a one to one sugar to lemon juice. Um not one to one sugar, one to one sugar and simple syrup, which would be I had to do the calculations.
+
+[28:11] So it'll be 50% of that weight on sugar. I would just do it. And you have to add the sugar later. Is that necessary? Or why does everyone have you add the sugar later?
+
+[28:20] Is that for flavor reasons or what? Yeah, I don't maybe I don't know. Because the easiest thing to do would be to put the sugar into the juice so that you know it's dissolved and you get the sweetness and tartness right based on the juice basis, and then added that to the booze. That seems to me to be easiest. But everyone, and I mean everyone, macerates their liqueurs first and sugars at the end.
+
+[28:45] Everyone does it. So there has to be a reason, right? Other than just history. Maybe someone in the chat room can uh shed light on it. But I would not use simple syrup because that's gonna reduce the ABV too much.
+
+[29:00] I would use uh sugar, but that's me. Um right? And in the future, weigh everything. This way you can easily calculate how much, like what your result ABV is because Nastasia's saying that her ABV was down like something like down at wine level, right? It was like 12, 13% by the time you were done with all the stuff you added.
+
+[29:23] Do you say 10%? I have a good idea. Oh, you haven't tried it at all. It freezes hard, so you know that it's like a low ABV. Yeah.
+
+[29:33] Yeah. Alright. Uh Alexander Saunders wrote in uh I'm I completely forgot how to send in show questions. Well, you made it anyway. My uh my 10 year old wants to have a miracle berry tasting.
+
+[29:47] Any must-try foods that I may not have thought of, huh? Uh. I mean, I was talking to John about this this morning. Uh Stasi and I didn't talk about it, but um uh we uh we've I've only ever done it for work, right? And so when I was doing it for work, we always chose specific things that we knew were gonna uh kind of highlight the effect, right?
+
+[30:12] And I have a mental issue. So I remember once, Stas, were you with me for this one? It was one of the McGee classes. Did you ever run the McGee class or did you come after we ran the McGee class? McGee was there a lot, but we had a McGee class that we only did three times.
+
+[30:28] I know. I did it at least once with Mindy, so I can't remember whether or not I don't remember what years we did it. Anyway, because it was early on. So anyway, we did Miracleberry tasting as one of the McGee classes, as well as gymnemic acid. I highly recommend that you guys, your 10-year-old's not gonna like it, but gememic acid is like the anti-miracle berry.
+
+[30:47] So a miracleberry makes acid taste sweet. It doesn't remove the acidity, it just also makes the acid taste sweet. Uh ginemic acid erases your sense of sweet, and it's hard gross. So we would always do on separate days, we would do a miracleberry tasting on one day and then genemic acid tasting on the other, so you can really get an idea of what things are like with a zero sugar. Like fruit with zero sugar is crazy.
+
+[31:13] Chocolate with zero sugar is crazy, and you know, we would eat an unsweetened chocolate and then sweetened chocolate where we couldn't taste the sweet, you know, marshmallows, sugar tastes like sand. It's it's really interesting. Anyway, so with Miracleberry, I'll never forget it, and I can't remember whether this is the one you you were with me on, Stas, but we had a whole bowl of of sliced limes. And the idea was, yeah, okay, good. So you remember.
+
+[31:37] The idea was we were passing limes out to people so that they could have they were making like unsweetened lemonade, unsweetened limeade, and just eating on lemons when they were they were doing their miracle berry. And I just sat there while other people were talking like lime, lime, lime, lime, lime, lime, lime, lime, lime. And I must have eaten like half that dang bowl of limes. And you know I don't get acid stomach aches, but holy Houstino I had a serious acid stomach stomach ache after that. You remember that one?
+
+[32:11] Yes. Oh my god. Do you remember the time when I came to teach when I had food poisoning? Oh my god yes. So like it was was it also a Mc it was also a McGee class, right?
+
+[32:24] Yes. Yeah. I don't know. It was not the same one I don't think but I got food poisoned like hard food poisoned. And like I would come in.
+
+[32:34] I would go in for so the way we used to work is the our classes were in this amphitheater and so we had a little side room and so I would run on do the talking like do some cooking with McGee then run out like throw up like like five six times then come back and do it. Oh my god I was so walking wounded that day. And geez Lisa anyway so what do you guys suggest that they eat with the Miracleberry? Like what's what's gonna be fun what's sour. I hear oh you know who used to do this all the time is uh is uh cliff cliff endo I think the genemic acid is cooler I mean genuine yeah right um with the honey yeah because it's slightly it's what's weird about that is it's slightly sweet, even though you you know you can't taste sweetness, which is crazy.
+
+[33:20] Remember how gross Coca-Cola is without uh the sugar in it? Oh my god. Uh anyway, I'm sorry that I don't have any better suggestions, but anything with a moderate amount of acidity. If you go back to the old blog, it tells you what to do with Miracle Berry. All the thing is is like make sure you get a good quality one because remember we were buying different brands, styles, and some of them are really good and some of them really sucked.
+
+[33:46] And I'll retell this one story that is not my story, but it's a story that I was told by uh Katsuya, who at the time was a uh working with Jose Andres at um Cafe Atlantico and Mini Bar, and he he was at Madrid Fusion. This is in 2004, I guess, 2005, 2004, and they were doing a demo, and uh they had mentioned Miracle Berry, and so I went up to talk to Katsuya afterwards, and he told me this story, which I may have said on the on the air, I don't know. Uh, where he had done a miracle berry demo for someone and then was just going back to do normal work, and he was get this people, acid correcting a soup. So I hope all of you, when you make soups, you cook the soup and then at the end you acid correct, right? You understand what I'm saying, guys?
+
+[34:37] You with me? Yeah, yeah. So because I think a lot of soups that could be good, the first mistake, right? People don't put pet like salt in it, right? That's the first mistake.
+
+[34:48] They undersalt the soup. That's a sad soup. And then I think the second most common mistake is not acid of correcting it. What do you guys think? Yeah.
+
+[34:59] Yeah, probably. I think for me too, I like nice like silky smoothie kind of soups, not too chunky, but for me, the texture is also an important thing. So you think people that like on a creamy soup have under blended, that's a huge problem? Yeah. Speaking of uh here's a uh a a mistake that I have seen more than sixty students make.
+
+[35:23] If you are going to make a soup where you have pureeed the vegetable, I will just say whatever pumpkin, cauliflower, whatever. Please cook the hell out of it. Why are you cooking that stuff al Dante? You are going to blend it. So as long as you aren't overcooking it to the extent that you have changed the flavor into something garbage.
+
+[35:48] And by the way, are any is anyone in this uh in this uh group that we're talking with here fans of the hyper overcooked broccoli on purpose that on purpose overcooked broccoli? No. I like overcooked broccoli. Yeah, there's a whole there's a whole kind of like subculture that I think was re popularized by I think Lydia Bastianich, and then I heard about it f from her through Steingarden years ago, of this whole kind of like subgroup of people that overcook broccoli on purpose till it gets that overcooked broccoli flavor, and then they highlight that overcooked broccoli flavor. And I also enjoy it.
+
+[36:25] Uh but for a soup, there's a big difference, you know, between now look. If if you're doing a green soup, right, like a broccoli, then sure, cook it fast and hard in salted water till it's cooked through, have the pieces small enough so they cook fast, right? That's another key if you're gonna do something green, and then shock the hell out of them in uh in ice water so that you maintain the color, right? And then and then puree them. Or what Nils used to do, because he was real fast, is cut them small so they cook real fast, drain them, puree them instantly, and then throw them into a hotel pan over ice and cool it instantly to keep the color.
+
+[37:07] But the one caveat about overcooking is some things take on with vicious long cooking kind of sulfurous flavors like could have with cauliflower and have with broccoli, and if you're worried about maintaining green color, but other than that, please don't undercook the stuff that you're gonna puree. Johnny with me on this? Agreed. I'd also like to add on the green soups, add your acids at the ends. Don't just let it sit all thrown off.
+
+[37:32] It is true that shifting things towards acid will cause the chloroform to uh denature quicker and go and go olive drab. Now, everyone always used to say not to cover the lid because trapping the volatile acids they thought would make the stuff go green, uh sorry, olive faster. I don't know that I believe that. I cover my stuff so that it comes back to the boil quickly and then uncover it. Yeah.
+
+[37:59] So that it doesn't overflow. But that's me. Um how the heck did we get on? Oh, yeah. So Katsuya is making a soup, and he's going to acid correct the soup.
+
+[38:09] I got one more thing on soup and acid in a minute. Remind me. He's going to acid correct the soup, and he doesn't realize that he's still his mouth is still on Miracle Berry. And so he's adding vinegar to the soup. And it's just getting sweeter and sweeter.
+
+[38:27] And you can't figure out why he can't correct this soup. And then someone comes up and tastes it, and it's like, and like, what the hell did you do? This is like just vinegar soup now. And he's like, uh, Miracle berry. Yeah.
+
+[38:42] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the interesting thing about Miracle Berry is that it tends to one to one it. So in other words, the sugars can actually balance the amount of acid there, which is, I guess, kind of cool. But to me, it's not a straight.
+
+[39:03] To me, it's not a pure sugar flavor, right, Sas. There's something slightly chemically about the sweetness, right? It's not, do you find it as pure as as table sugar? No. Me neither.
+
+[39:15] Me neither. But it's fun. It's good to do. But I think Nastasia's right. If you care more about learning and less about hedonism, get you some genemic acid, right, Sas?
+
+[39:24] Yeah. Yeah. Uh, acid and soup. So, Nastash, you might have to earmuff because I'm gonna talk about something related to bread, okay? No good, I'm going to the bathroom.
+
+[39:34] What? For real? Yes. For real. Alright.
+
+[39:39] Okay. Wow. It's like Dax. Dax has this thing where, like, in the middle of doing something, he says, I need to go to the bathroom. I'm like, and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna tell him about this, what just happened.
+
+[39:50] Because what I tell him is adults don't stop what they're doing and go to the bathroom. What do you guys think about that? Is that true or not? In general. I mean, I know Nastasia here is specifically avoiding like listening to the bread thing, which is why I'm drawing this out until she comes back.
+
+[40:06] But anyway. I mean, I don't know. This is a dicey subject right now because New York City is the land where you like can't go to the bathroom anywhere. Nothing is open to go to the like, so now you have to think real hard about it before you leave the house. Plan to do it.
+
+[40:24] So you can't go into a Starbucks and use a bathroom now? I don't think so. Most of those places will not let you. I'm not gonna call it out in case it's not allowed, but I know uh someone that went to a restaurant, and this restaurant's a friend of ours in Brooklyn, and what they do if you need to go back is they they hand you hand sanitizer and tell you to like sanitize everything when you go in and you come out as a kind of courtesy. But I don't know whether that's actually cool to do or just what they do, so I'm not gonna call them out.
+
+[40:55] This episode is brought to you by Bend to Table, a monthly food subscription service for avid home cooks focused on delicious and sustainable pantry items. For the past few months, Nastasi and I have been trying out Bend to Table subscription boxes. When we started out, we didn't know just how much they would come in handy. Thanks to the pandemic, I spent a lot more time at home cooking with my family. Some of my favorite things that I got from Bend to Table boxes were the beans from Rancho Gordo, especially the cassoulet beans and the Christmas Lima beans, uh, which were delicious.
+
+[41:24] I've been cooking them in the rice cooker. I also really enjoyed the Geechee Boy uh grits. Those are the some of the most delicious grits I've ever had in my whole life. Uh now is the time to try out a bend a table subscription. You'll get new high-quality pantry ingredients shipped right to your door every month, like Rancho Gordo Beans, Geechee Boy stone milled grits, and burlap and barrel spices.
+
+[41:46] You probably noticed that these are ingredients that are sold out in many places, but with Bend to Table subscription, you'll get you'll keep your pantry well stocked and discover new ingredients with each delivery. Just try, just try to buy red fife flour anywhere but bend a table. Go to Bend2Table.com to start your monthly subscription. Use the discount code HRN to get $20 off a new subscription, and Bend to Table will donate $10 to support cooking issues and all of HRN, which stands for Heritage Radio Networks programming. So anyway, so one of if you're trying to do a sourdough or Levana or whatever you want to call it, like one of the problems is you have a boat ton of spent sourdough left over because you never use all of it, right?
+
+[42:28] So what to do? So you can make crackers or whatnot. Did I already talk about this, John? No, you and I spoke about it, but you haven't spoken about it on there. Alright.
+
+[42:35] So uh one of my uh, you know, one a Polish soup that I like is called Zurek, and it's made with uh fermented rye, basically old spent rye sourdough starter, fundamentally. I think they might make it with bread, they might ferment bread the way Kvas has done, but you could do it with a starter, right? And so I was like, I wonder if I can take my old hyper sour spent starter and use it as the acidifier slash thickener in a s in a stew. So I did like uh I did like a like a chicken onion mustard stew, kind of like a mashup of all of that kind of stuff, and then and then hit it with uh hit it with a bunch of my really old spent sourdough starter, and it was terrific. Of course, I'm using whole wheat sourdough starters, so it like it wasn't didn't have that it was had some kind of nuance to it other than just acidity.
+
+[43:32] It wasn't just like straight white flour, but it was great. So if you have spent sourdough starter and it's not preposterously hot right now where you are, try using it, like look up a Zurek recipe with a Z uh or anything similar to that, and then instead of using uh the fermented uh rye paste, try using some of your spent uh starter. What do you think? Is that a good tip, John? Great tip.
+
+[43:56] Interesting thing. People might people might not have tried. And if you've never tried the sour rye soup at all, or even in that realm, you should try it. It's delicious. Uh all right.
+
+[44:09] You gotta we have somebody way in in the chat on the miracle berries. Antoine Lefebvre says sour cream and graham cracker make a good mock cheesecake on Miracle Berries. Okay. Okay. Do you know what makes a delicious cheesecake texture?
+
+[44:27] If you uh take fresh peaches and you uh blend, you take this the stones out, you blend them in a vita prep, then you then add uh pectanex and you spin it in a centrifuge. You take the juice and you make a cocktail with it. Um if when Estasi gets back, maybe she can remind me. What cocktail did we make with that juice that time? The peach juice.
+
+[44:50] Remember when we had long make the bourbon, yeah. Something with bourbon. It was like clarified peach bourbon. Did we do the tea with that one or no? Anyway, so we had one of the greatest interns of all time.
+
+[45:04] His name was Long. He's now in Taiwan, I think. Uh he went to French Laundry. What a great guy, right? He was the guy that came over and we were hand grinding tortillas with a corona mill, which is a freaking nightmare.
+
+[45:17] We were doing it for like 20 people. We were using that hand grinder to grind fresh masa for like 20 people, and he just sat there grinding and grinding and grinding for hours. You remember that? And it wasn't even for work, he was just doing it. He was just sitting there like a machine grinding and grinding.
+
+[45:32] Anyway, I hear he's killing it in Taiwan. So uh what were we talking about? Oh, yeah. So we gave Long the peach pulp that was on the outside of the in inside the bucket. So when you hit uh juice with SPL and you blend it, they the the breakdown product, the puck, is intensely smooth and very just very heavy and dense.
+
+[45:56] Is that a good description, Styles? Like heavy and dense. And then he added a little bit of sugar to it, and then he like whipped froze it with liquid nitrogen and put it on a graham cracker crust, and that was on point. Am I right, Styles? So good.
+
+[46:11] It was like cheesecake texture, but almost entirely made out of peaches. That was good. I wouldn't mind eating that again. That was a pie you liked okay. Yeah, that was great.
+
+[46:22] It was like a cheesecakey type thing. Yeah. So you like cheesecake? Yeah. Do you like cheesecake with the crust up the side, or do you prefer just on the bottom and that weird kind of gravelly outside?
+
+[46:34] Uh either. But you clearly don't like the BS fruit garbage on top. No. What's the name of that guy that manages uh Dan the Animator? Brad.
+
+[46:45] Brad, thank you. Uh I'm now I don't know why that is on air, but okay. The what about uh a chocolate cheesecake? Um I haven't had enough to I don't know. And not my thing.
+
+[47:00] I prefer plain. What about Italian style ricotta cheesecakes? Yeah, good. Really? You like the grainier, you like that?
+
+[47:07] What about you? What about you, Matt and John? I like all cheesecakes. You like like the pizza dolce, like the ricotta, like the real like the really grainy, watery, weepy ones? Yeah, okay.
+
+[47:20] It's got its own its own thing. I like uh you know, Basque style burnt cheesecake, uh, um New York style cheesecake, it's all delicious to me. You know, I hated cheesecake growing up, hated it. I didn't like it until my probably early 30s. I love it now.
+
+[47:37] But I absolutely hated cheesecake growing up. I also hated cream donuts. Did I tell this story? You told them in the wand up in the past, I think. Hey Dave, tell people what Booker wants to make.
+
+[47:51] What do you mean? Non fried donuts and cupcakes. Oh my god. Yeah, Booker comes to me, he's like, I want to well, you know, people know that Booker now has decided he wants to be a professional baker. I gotta get him hooked up with Angela to uh to talk to him about the ins and outs of uh taking that on as a career.
+
+[48:06] But and uh I I hear Angela uh Garbaccia's book is doing well, the Goldenrod Pastries book. Uh anyway, um yeah, so he comes up and he's trolling me in the way that Nastasia's family is trolling uh he's like, I want to do non-fried donuts and cupcakes. And if there's two things on earth that I want, is I want my donut fried the way God intended. And I don't like cupcakes. We had this discussion with Angela when she was on the air.
+
+[48:34] She likes cupcakes. I think most people do. I'm probably in the minority on the not liking cupcakes. Yeah. But I prefer cake to icing, and I prefer my cake to not be dry.
+
+[48:46] So if I really want a cake to be dry, what I will do is I will increase the amount of surface area it has per unit volume. And the best way to do that, other than making it in tiny thin sheets, is to make a cupcake, which has a very high surface area to volume ratio. And then classically, people put gobs and gobs of icing on the top of that thing, so I can't even get my face onto the cake without having to deal with the icing. So, my in general move is I just fist the icing and just rip it off like a cap of poison and then eat the cupcake that's underneath. And if I have been blessed with luck, like they have kept the cup cupcake wrapped so that it hasn't dried out and desiccated into a little hockey puck by the time I've gotten it.
+
+[49:29] That's just my feeling. That's just how I feel. I mean, look, some people, and I think Booker is like this, like they could just like they could just go to town on a bowl of icing with a spoon. I'm just not that guy. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:54] And even like, you know, you'd think that based on other things that I like, that like like like a hard butter buttercream icing, like with lots of butter, that I would like that. No. I like cream cheese frosting on a carrot cake. So I'm not. You know what Nastasia wants next from Booker people?
+
+[50:15] She wants the German chocolate cake with the with the with the crunchy coconut icing on top. What are your what are your I know Nastasia likes it because she asked for it? What are your other thoughts? That's delicious. Yeah, but I'm delicious.
+
+[50:28] I do. So we're gonna try to get Booker to make that, but the problem is that uh Booker doesn't like coconuts, so I don't know if he will bake with them or not. He might it might come up in a baking career that you might need to use ingredients you don't personally enjoy. Well, everyone who listens to the show knows that Booker sold pasta for Nastasia and hates pasta, and we had to, we had to do many, many hours of role-playing of having of yeah, right, not insulting the product he was selling. So like we would walk up and be like, okay, hey, uh, I'm gonna get some lunch.
+
+[51:05] Um, what do you, you know, what do you recommend? I don't eat pasta, it's disgusting. We're like, no, no, you can't say that. And then we were like worrying working about, right? Remember that, Sas?
+
+[51:15] Yes. Hey, John, did you see that uh spinzall repair question right now? No. You gotta remember, other people don't have access to our email. So now we have to discuss it.
+
+[51:25] Now we have to discuss it. We have to discuss it. Uh someone is embarrassed. Uh, because even after reading the manual and watching the video, he inadvertently opened the lid while locked. Now yeah.
+
+[51:38] Now it's shut down. After starting spin-up with all red lights blinking. Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay.
+
+[51:47] So my God. Listen, listen. The good news is is that John's gonna spend a lot of FaceTime with that person trying to get their unit back in order. Hey, listen though. I have made a video.
+
+[51:57] It is super long and boring, where I completely disassemble the spinz all. So if the sucker's already out of warranty and you want to get an idea of how to repair something that John's not willing to help you repair, you can watch that video. Right? I'm willing to help people repair anything and everything. I love you.
+
+[52:20] For anyone out there listening, if anything goes wrong with your stinzall, stop trying to fix it. Just leave it and send me an email, and it'll be a lot easier and quicker to fix that way than if you try and do something to it. And I'll just say this. You probably have to spend money to get a new part if you do it that way. I'll say this on top of this, because look, here's what happens.
+
+[52:40] John fixes a lot of the stuff, and then stuff that he's not sure about, like we'll discuss with each other. So we take this stuff very seriously. Am I right, John? Yeah, very carefully. But in all of life, and Nastasi and I and John, we can get into a small argument here.
+
+[52:59] When something breaks, right? If you trust that the person's going to do their best to try to make your life right, be honest with them about exactly what happened and be clear about what you're saying to them because if the person on the other side of the line is a smart person, which John is, right, then they will be trying to figure out what is wrong based on the stuff that you say. So if you hold information back, or if you don't say exactly like this happened, then this happened, or I dropped it. Everyone's afraid to say that they dropped something, right? So it's like, then it's gonna be hard for us to troubleshoot what happened.
+
+[53:34] Am I right, John? Yeah, and the damage is already done, and if it's out of warranty, we're not gonna pay to fix it anyway. So just be honest and tell us what happened. Right. And we will we like there's no one so far that we haven't been able to make it right.
+
+[53:47] I have three units in my house right now that are taking up precious quarantine areas. That's your new title. What's your new title? So uh I don't know. What was that?
+
+[53:58] Do you remember? I don't remember. Well, is it something like spinzall repair specialists or something like this? Yeah, something like that. It was great.
+
+[54:05] Another video that John's gonna get up, hopefully pretty soon. I recorded and put out there. And I did this, believe it or not, for Nastasia. Um I did how to set up a home carbonation system with a carbonator. And when I say I did this video, I give the part numbers, I give the places to buy them, I give websites, I even tell you who to speak to at the place where you're supposed to call it.
+
+[54:29] I give you current 20 May 2020 pricing on the stuff that you need to buy. It is pretty much everything you need to know. John, am I right about this? That is right, yeah. And after it's great content.
+
+[54:45] And it's up if you check the Booker and DAX Instagram, you'll see uh posted about it this morning, and there's a link to uh it in our profile. Right, and we're not put we're not pushing it on social because we're not doing any social pushes right now. But um you made this video the way that you made bread for Jen's anniversary. When you're like, you made this video for me. It's like the same thing.
+
+[55:07] Well, no, because now you get to say this. No more carbonate, no more how to set up a carbonator question. It's definitely not true, Dave, because you will get a carbonation question and then you'll be like, go to the video. But and then tangent for 50 minutes. See, I can't win.
+
+[55:20] I can't ever win. No, that's true. Right, John? I can't win. There's no winning.
+
+[55:24] Bye bye. It does, it has the truth. There's no winning, people. Uh Dr. Kuba Radizowski wrote in uh hey, uh, would you mind telling me which peristaltic pump you're using for your rotoVap?
+
+[55:36] We have a rotovap for our students that are now trying to make it more gastronomic. Uh it's a course for chemistry students, actually. We're teaching them laboratory skills through cooking. Awesome. Uh I just use a uh, you know, it Cole Palmer rebrands uh whatever their, you know, uh I forget the name of it, but it's a 60, it's a 60 RPM, and it takes roughly quarter-inch tubing.
+
+[55:57] The problem with it is that you have to get, and I could try to look it up. It's it's on actually the I believe the actual tubing numbers are on the blog post. You can go look at it. Uh which, which you know, on the primer on the rotavap primer. And uh the problem is the tubings collapse over time.
+
+[56:14] And if you notice bubbles streaming up through the tubing, it means that the tubing's not sealing anymore. And if it does that, then uh it wreaks havoc with your um with your system. So I would invest in a vacuum check valve, and I would put the check valve on the atmospheric pressure side of the pump, not on the vacuum side of the pump. And if you have more questions, ask more questions or hit up uh hit up John. Uh hit up it ask us like you're asking a uh a warranty question for whatever because if I if I go too into the weeds on roto vaps, Nastasia will will murder me.
+
+[56:49] Uh speaking of we had a question from uh Raj Mataj via Instagram uh who wants the Tokyo high ball spec. I'll give that in a minute if I have time. But they said, am I familiar with the uh JiroVap, which is a uh online, it's online a kind of supposedly chef-driven rotovap machine, and Raj wants to know if that's kind of the way I was gonna make my own rotovap. The answer is no, it's not, but uh if I get into it, it seems like it's a lot of money, and there's not enough videos online, and they're not posting enough information for me to make a clear judgment. But uh I I didn't have time to do it this morning.
+
+[57:28] But they're using ice as their as their main thing, but it takes kilos and kilos of ice to adequately chill something uh to recondense. Uh I could do the math, but this condensation of steam versus the uh is something like 80 kilocalories per uh you know, per gram or 80 calories per gram, and the um ice is like a quarter of that. So you need a lot of ice to recondense uh you know a smaller amount of product. But anyway, um I can go more into it later. If again hit up uh John uh separately.
+
+[58:04] Uh the toki, uh yeah, I'm not gonna have time. Umti, do I have time to answer anything else or am I toast? I mean you're you're pretty much toast. All right, so I will get to uh I will get to the possible uh here's a I'll do this one quickly. Not sure if you take questions on Instagram.
+
+[58:26] There's this is from Jonathan Kane. There seems to be quite a bit of conflicting information on the web about cooking, specifically smoking with western red cedar. I was under the assumption that this was safe, but others have indicated possible toxicity. I can't seem to find much research on the matter. Some sites list general toxicity in cedar from large doses of thujone.
+
+[58:44] Is that a concern in smoking? Thanks. Now I can't, Jonathan, answer uh not a safety expert or an occupational person, but uh I mean I have an occupation, but that's not what I mean. Um the danger, Western red cedar is the highest of the of uh the thuja like group of things, not necessarily in thujon, but in something called placatic acid, which is a non-volatile acid that is uh a respiratory irritant and can cause uh like um it can cause uh uh a specific allergy. Um that is and it's it's particularly high in uh Western red cedar.
+
+[59:23] So people who cut western red cedar and work with it and slice it, they are at risk for developing a specific kind of asthma that really only people who use these kinds of woods get. Now it's non-volatile, however, when you're smoking, you're, you know, you're just not a clean burn, so I don't know whether or not it's launching any of that stuff into the air. But that's what I would look at. I wouldn't worry about the food zone, I'd worry about the placatic acid. Um all right, so I will answer Monty.
+
+[59:49] I'll answer your question about your uh Chef Steps uh control freak next week. John will make sure that I do uh and uh I can talk I'll give you the Toki Lowball spec next week Raj and I'll leave you guys with this uh uh Audi Edge wrote in via Instagram hey Dave enjoying the quarantine podcast question is cereal soup from Audi Golder answer no okay cooking issues cooking issues is powered by simple cast thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network food radio supported by you for our freshest content subscribe to our newsletter enter your email at the bottom of our website heritageradio network.org connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio you can also find us at facebook.com slash heritage radio network heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better fairer more delicious place and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community subscribe to the shows you like tell your friends and please join the HRN family by becoming a member just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage thanks for listening
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+[0:26] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. Muckle Shoot! This episode is brought to you by the Michigan Cherry Committee, representing 75% of the U.S. grown Montmorency tart cherry production.
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+
+[1:31] To apply and review the terms and conditions, go to Heritage Radio Network.org slash B I Z. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your coastal cooking issues coming to you live from the Lower East Side of Manhattan. We got Nastasia Lopez waiting for her exterminator to show up in Stanford, Connecticut on the Long Island Sound. We got uh Matt in his Brooklyn booth, booth, booth, booth, and we got uh John chilling in in Murray Hill.
+
+[2:06] He still has not figured out where Murray comes from. Am I correct? I did. It was a uh shipping merchant. That's weak.
+
+[2:16] What do you want to know? Yeah, what else would you expect? It makes sense. I don't know. A shipping merchant?
+
+[2:22] I mean this is like yeah, Robert Murray. Mercantile family that settled in the area in the 18th century. Yeah, Nastasi wants to know what they ship. Yeah. And can we protest them?
+
+[2:35] Let's get it changed. Uh uh. Alright. So uh yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.
+
+[2:44] It's just boring. Shipping merchant is boring. I'm sure I'm looking more up. I'll I'll let you guys know. Shipping Merchant does feel like it's a Wikipedia entry that's been edited to obscure reality.
+
+[2:56] Yeah. Yeah. Shipping merchant is like the modern day. What do you do? Imports and exports.
+
+[3:02] Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Um, the other name thing that John is supposed to look up is why in English, Dutch is slang for crappy. That I did not look up.
+
+[3:17] I didn't know that was an assignment for for those. Yeah, well, well, now you know. Next week. Yeah. Because I don't understand it.
+
+[3:25] Like Americans traditionally don't have anything against the Dutch, right? So it has to be something about it has to be something about Germans. It has to be like a bastardization of the word Deutsch, right? I would think so. Uh so strange news.
+
+[3:40] Uh I know John knows about this. I don't know if Nastasia is yet aware, because she uh does not follow the food news. Am I correct? I I do. But you do?
+
+[3:53] Whenever I ask you a question about food or person, you're like, I don't know, I don't care about that. I mean, I know about restaurants. But what are you talking about? Yeah. Well, the French Culinary Institute, now the International Culinary Center, this is the strangest one.
+
+[4:08] I was not expecting this, is merging with ice. Yeah, you told what do you say? You had told me that. That's not possible because I learned this morning and I haven't spoken to you today. Oh, so maybe I learned from somebody else.
+
+[4:23] Yeah. So for those of you that don't know, here in New York City for the longest time, there have been two major, I mean, there's lots of cooking schools, but there's been two major like cooking schools. Now, if you're not from New York, you might think that um that the CIA, which is not the spy corporation, the spy thing, but the set's um, what's it? The CIA stands for the Culinary Institute of America. They are in New York State, but they are not anywhere near New York City.
+
+[4:55] When I say not near, I mean nowhere's close. Like how far away, how far away is uh Hyde Park uh guys? Do you guys even know? An hour. What?
+
+[5:05] Two hours? Something like that. Two hours. And uh and so and the CIA is a a college. So it is a like it's a regular college that is culinary, but it's a college.
+
+[5:21] Whereas here in New York City, we had two what are called vocation, they were technically vocational schools, right? So you had the French Culinary Institute, uh founded by Dorothy Can Hamilton. That's where I was the director of culinary technology, where Anastasia was heir apparent and cooking issues uh blogmeister and um what's it called? Uh internship uh program leader, right? Well, what what do you have an actual title there?
+
+[5:47] I'm just making all this up, just giving your job description. No, you said nobody needs titles. So I was true, it's true. Uh but then you made up your own title, it was air apparent, but that's after you left the FCI? You made that up, and yes, it was actually You made that up.
+
+[6:02] Okay. Anyway. So uh we were there, and sometime while we were there, they took on uh Italian. So the French Culinary Institute was founded, I don't know, sometime in the 80s by Dorothy Can Hamilton. And it was, you know, she got this amazing group of chefs, and I'm sure most of you already have heard the story from me.
+
+[6:23] So she got uh Alan Sayak. Alan Sayak became the dean, and he was like old school, old school Frenchy French guy. Hilarious. I love I love that guy. Like I worked for him.
+
+[6:33] He always kind of like would give me side eye because I wasn't you know classically French trained, but he also was very generous to me with his time. He was at um Le Syric for a while, Lecine was his uh the which say Swan. It's say say that with a nice French accent there, John. Yeah, the Swan. Yeah.
+
+[6:53] Uh and you know, uh a couple other places. He's actually also the chef, I think, at the uh at the 51 club for a while, which is weird, right? Like way back in the day. Um, that's what it's called, right? 51 Club.
+
+[7:07] Anyway, um, so he was this kind of the guy he would walk around and like just kind of say crazy things. Like I remember one time I met with him early on, and I just washed my hands, and he made me kind of shake his hand. He's like, shake my hand, and then my hand was still a little wet because I hadn't dried it off. He's like, a hit of that, a hit of that. And I was like, yo, man.
+
+[7:30] And so that's from then on. I've never shaken someone's hands in a professional situation. It's always elbow or fist bumps, always 100% of the time. So is that a is it a dog? I thought it was a dog before.
+
+[7:43] Yeah, Major has decided that he's gonna wine the whole time. Could we is there like a treat we can give him or something? I'm glad he can't hear you say that. I believe there is not. Would you like me to check?
+
+[7:57] I mean, maybe. He started doing it literally 100% of the time. I mean, this is like, you know, Nastasia thinks it's you know cute when other people have their real-life corona stuff happen. Hold on a second, I'll see. Give me one second.
+
+[8:16] This episode is brought to you by the Michigan Cherry Committee. A cherry isn't just a cherry. When it comes to tart cherries, the wonderfully US-grown Montmorency tart cherry variety is the cherry with more. They're available year-round, dried, frozen, canned, juice, and concentrate. US Montmorency tart cherries are also one of America's superfruits, which means they're good for you.
+
+[8:42] Tarte cherries contain many antioxidants and beneficial phytonutrients, including anthocyanins. The pigments that give tart cherries their beautiful red color. And don't forget about flavor. U.S. Montmorency's unique sour sweet profile makes them an excellent addition to yogurt, oatmeal, salads, trail mix, and of course, a classic cherry pie.
+
+[9:07] Learn more about the wonderfully US grown Montmorency tart cherry at ChooseCherries.com. And we're back. So now he also told me this story like Alain Sayak, old school, old school French guy. And uh he would always, he's the guy that I think I said on the air, got real mad at me because I wanted some uh I wanted some mustard with my uh country style pate. And and he literally looked at me almost fat in my face and was like, Americans.
+
+[9:39] I was like, hey, ho, I like mustard with my country style pate. Um can you hear Major? Um I Dax tried to take him into his room, but I can still kind of hear him. Yes. It's a lot better, though.
+
+[9:53] Here's what happened, people. I'm trying to tell you about the French Culinary Institute, which is merging, and it's gonna not gonna be its own thing anymore. And instead, I'm talking about so last night that my kids walked the dogs at night, and I walked them in the morning, right? After you walked them in the morning, then you feed them. Now, last night they gave the dogs the last of the food.
+
+[10:20] Did anybody tell me that we were out of dog food? No. No, no, no one told me we're out of dog food. So I didn't realize until it was too late to go back out and get some this morning that they are out. So Major is just pissed that he has not been fed.
+
+[10:37] And they, I guess, this morning, because I heard Booker give the dog some treats, gave the dogs the last of the treats, and so there's nothing to even temporarily bribe them during the radio program. So if you hear some squealing and scratching, I'm not abusing the dog. The dog's just mad at me and letting me know. All right? Alright?
+
+[10:56] Yeah. I'm gonna stop talking about that now. So uh he also told me a story once where so he was growing up in the so I was asking uh Chef Sayak about game, right? Specifically uh things like uh woodcock and grouse. And everyone hopefully remembers the story where I was spitting uh buckshot and rancid uh woodcock guts all in Nastasia's face, not on purpose, but they were just all stuck to the outside of my mouth because I was I was fisting and muzzle eating these like uh birds at Hicks restaurant in London.
+
+[11:32] Remember that, Stas? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so so Chef Alan hated, hated kind of like bloody rare things and hated game, and I asked him one day why. And he said, When I was a small child, my dad would bring home these game birds and hang them in the basement, and he would let them go until they were like stinky, and then we'd have to cook them like rare, and then I would watch them eat and just the stuff coming out of his teeth, and he's like, and I've never been able to eat it since. And so basically, you are Alan Sayak, Nastasia.
+
+[12:07] You and Alan Sayak share something in this kind of experience of people eating game birds and having it be like a revolting experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so uh Chef Alan was the dean, you know, and he was the dean for decades until Nils came on, Nils Norrin, our buddy Nils Norn came on and took over and you know, kind of did the Nils Norrin thing there. Uh and they had Jacques Papin, which who we called uh Jackie Peeps, the Peep Show, what else we used to call him?
+
+[12:39] I think that's it. Yeah. Uh anyway, so uh him Jacques Therese, who's now famous uh, you know, in non-food circles for his uh nailed it stuff with Nicole Bayer. Uh huh, I'm missing someone. I'm missing one of the deans.
+
+[12:55] Anyway, so they were oh, Andre Soltner, who was like, you know, for many, many decades owned and ran Lutes with his wife, and which was the best restaurant in all of New York in the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s. Anyways, so like they created this like core of culinary French culinary techniques. It's called the French Culinary Institute. And then sometime when we were there, you know, in the early 2000s, they brought Cesare Cassella on to become the the to do his Italian program, and they teamed up. This is the key thing where things started to change a little bit.
+
+[13:29] They teamed up with this Italian school in uh where where was that anyway? Where is that? Alma, something like that, Anastasia, something like that. Anyway, yeah, yeah, this Italian school, and the Italians were like, ain't no way, ain't no way I'm partnering with a bunch of French bastards. And so they literally, that's what happened.
+
+[13:49] And so they had to change the name of the school from the French Culinary Institute to the uh International Culinary Center. All right, now, simultaneously, and and the FCI's main thing was you came in for a career program, and on the on the cooking side, not on the pastry side was a little bit different, but on the cooking side, you came in and you did either the daytime or the nighttime, and you you worked your way through four levels of classroom work, and then your last two levels, you actually worked in a kitchen that served a restaurant, and the restaurant's name was Lake Hall. And Lake Cole was a fantastic deal. It was it's down was down on um Grand and Broadway, and you would go, and it was kind of like it's kind of like supercuts. Like sometimes you would get a fantastic meal, but you like you had to kind of time it like the very first day that the students were on, the chefs had to do a lot of the work because stuff was getting effed up real bad, and then like there two or three, like you know, the students were doing almost everything, but then you might get some problem.
+
+[14:51] But then after that, in the level, like they were pretty solid and running, and all of the all of the the food was created by the you know, these like kind of old school, like awesome French chefs, and then you would get this great meal for pretty cheap because you know they weren't trying to make a lot of money with it, they were just trying to get the students to practice. They had a decent wine list with great prices, and I loved going to Lake Hall. Even before I was involved with the FCI, I would go to Lake Cole kind of regularly because it was, you know, I didn't have any money and it was a good deal. Anyways, um, so that was the French Culinary Institute, and then it was called Peter Cump was the what ICE used to be called, and while we were more kind of focused on professional stuff, like Cump was more focused on kind of hobby and small courses, and but Cump grew into ICE, got this huge space downtown, and they were our arch rivals. So the French Culinary Institute where we were was when Dorothy Hamilton founded, here's something I don't know why I've talked about.
+
+[15:49] Her dad founded Apex Technical Schools. Now, for any of you that grew up anywhere near the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, major metropolitan area, you who are a little older, Apex Technical Commercials had a very famous spokesperson who would get on and he would say several things that's gonna be like instant for anyone that was around here. Free set of tools when you graduate. So you got your free set of tools whenever you graduated from what whether it was like air conditioning repair or anything like this. And the other thing was uh I can't make the first call, I can't call you.
+
+[16:23] You have to make the first step and call us. And those two hooks were what caused Apex Technical Schools to become kind of like the biggest, best, most famous technical school in the entire kind of New York area. And the guy who founded that, or his daughter was Dorothy Hamilton, and she's like, I'm gonna found my own technical school and founded the SCI. So the SDI was technically a technical school, and all of us teachers had to go and take these courses because technical schools a lot of time rip people off, and so they're very heavily, very heavily um regulated by the state. So it's much harder to get a job cooking uh teaching at a technical school and keep it for your certifications than it is a major university, because a major university can just decide to hire you.
+
+[17:06] I mean, it's not harder because obviously, whatever. I don't mean it that way, but I mean from a regulation standpoint. Anyways, so Cump, aka ICE was the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest competitor. In fact, when I got a job at the French Culinary Institute, and when I actually when I was leaving and I was gonna be a consultant there only, they wanted me to be exclusive to the French Culinary Institute. I'm like, I'm not gonna be exclusive because I already do like guest gigs at Harvard and all this other crap.
+
+[17:34] They're like, all right, you can do whatever you want, but don't teach at ICE. Whatever you do, you can't teach at ICE. They were arch enemies. So to hear that they are uh, and of course, Dorothy died a couple of years ago, Lake Hull closed down, everything changes, but I'm just a little shocked that they're merging. It's the strangest thing.
+
+[17:50] I mean, what what you guys have anything about this? No. Man. I just feel it's the end of an era. Particularly wrapped up in the in the I mean, like where you never pranked each other, you never like went to the other campus.
+
+[18:05] Come on. It's a good rivalry, nothing. I mean, it wasn't like it wasn't like a Harvard Yale thing, like, you know, because we were a little more adult than that. You know, no one was peeing on anyone else's statue, as far as I know. You know what I mean?
+
+[18:17] As far as I can tell, there was no statue urination, or you know, I never went to ice and uh stole a fire extinguisher and then discharged it all in a hallway in the middle of the night. I never did that at ice. Well, with some creative editing on my part, you just admitted to doing both those things. But I don't know. Anyway, to me, it's just uh and like when you read the the stuff on the in in the New York Times, Florence Fabricant just wrote a uh a piece on it.
+
+[18:47] Um, you know, it's like painted as this kind of like, oh, it's great, these two cooking schools are merging, but like for those inside, it's just throwing me for a loop. It's hard for me to think about uh anything else. Speaking of New York Times, Nastasia, Nastasi hates it when I talk about shows, so close your ears. Uh I I just watched the uh last episode of uh Ray Donovan, the series, Leaf Schreiber, who I like, but Nastasia does not. Nastasia, you do not like Lev Schreiber, right?
+
+[19:12] He's fine. I thought you said you saw him on the street and you're like, meh. Yeah, I mean, he's not as attractive as I thought he'd be. Okay. That's what I meant.
+
+[19:22] Okay? So they spent a good, like, it was a major thing. They were going against Pete Wells about his Luger review. Like, they took like all of this time during a very major plot point thing to talk about the Peter Luger's review and how Pete Wells was somehow like, you know, who the hell was he to say that Peter Luger's wasn't worth any stars? Crazy, right?
+
+[19:51] Are you in the show? In the show. In the show. How can that possibly be part of a good television show? I don't know.
+
+[19:59] It was weird. Now can you hear all the weird uh gaming going on in my background? Should I fix that too? Hold on a second. Uh Booker has this game called Bop It.
+
+[20:12] And he's 18, but he still loves the Bopet. I don't know why he loves the Bopet. There's like 8,000 Boppets. These games, if you're not Are you familiar with Bopet the game? No.
+
+[20:22] So there these it's basically a piece of plastic with a bunch of switches in it. And it's got like one that you hit, one that you twist, one that you pull, and there's all different. There's Bopit, there's Bopit Extreme, there's Bopit blah blah blah. So Booker has collected all the Boppets. He has a Bopit in Spanish, he has a Bopin in English, he has a miniature boppets, large-size boppets, like uh he's getting a German Bop it, all these Bopets, and they're real irritating because it's just it goes boost bopping, and you have to hit the thing, and then you know, spin it, twist it, ps, and then like if you don't do the right thing, then it like it like you know yells at you and says something horrible, right?
+
+[21:02] So and these games are well known, irritating, and like they they they penetrate my brain and my dreams. So I don't know what he was searching Bopets on the internets the other day, and he realized that people have hacked the Bopets. They cut a resistor, which it's so old school, the technology that they actually use a resistor to uh run the oscillator for the microprocessor. So you can change the resistor and change the clock speed of the microprocessor and thereby change the speed of the game. So he installed this thing that allows him to be like he made me do it.
+
+[21:36] He installed it. He made me do it yesterday. Bop it. And you can go bop it, pinch it, put it, bot it. And so like now, like all day I've been hearing like super slow and super fast versions of Bopit.
+
+[21:47] I'm about to lose my freaking mind. Yeah, you're so brave for helping him do that in this time where you can't leave your house that much. I know. And considering that like I spent the early part of his life re-engineering everything in the house to not make noise. Like I remember I had to, I told us on the air, like I have the Zoji Rushi uh rice cooker, and I'm the only one that I know of that I don't have the I'm done noise.
+
+[22:14] Like you used to sing a song, I don't even remember what it is, but I would have to open up all of my gear and cut all of the signal stuff because otherwise he would lose his mind when I was cooking rice. Anyways, all right, let's answer some questions. Let's answer some questions. Uh from Monty via email. Oh, by the way, I was gonna do a classics in the field.
+
+[22:34] Nastasia, you'll be you'll be glad to know. I was gonna do a classics in the field that had to do with flour milling today, but I knew that you would kill me. Yeah. Well, didn't we have when was well? How many months until we can have another bread/slash flower related uh thing on the gig?
+
+[22:50] That's up to you, Dave. Oh, it's not to me. I have to come on, it's up to it's up to all of us. Give me a break. All right, John.
+
+[22:56] When do you want to do it? Two week from now. Oh, Nastasi was hoping you would say months, but okay. All right. Uh speaking of which I did bake another pie from uh pie marches on, which, you know, as everyone knows is my you know current favorite classics in the field.
+
+[23:14] Angela Garbats, who was on the show, we should have her back on, see how her uh thing is doing. She also just purchased a copy. So I realized that there's not even a lot of copies left available. Someone needs to reprint that. But John thought maybe I should read this one quote.
+
+[23:29] Should I read the quote, John? I think so. I think it was pretty great. Yeah. And uh we brought this up because uh we're not posting this kind of stuff on social media right now, but I did make a 4th of July pie.
+
+[23:39] So the cherries that I told you guys I picked last week, which were Monoarensi sour cherries, I pitted them, and then instead of making a traditional cherry pie, which it doesn't seem to me that a lot of people actually like, just the pieces of cherry with the goop, uh, I did a version of kind of a whipped cherry pie. So I took uh the fresh cherries, I blended them, uh, sugar, heated them up, stirred cornstarch into that, and then just as the cornstarch came up and functionalized, added to a boil, I folded it into uh egg white, you know, whipped egg white with with sugar, like stiff peaks, and then put that into my now I've told you a million times, but please, the the real crust with the graham cracker on both sides. So I put that pie filling in, and these were very strongly flavored cherries, so really tart. So it was like a very still very strongly flavored kind of whipped pie. Then I put uh you know, as it was setting, I put over the top fresh blueberries and then little stars made of uh pie crust.
+
+[24:42] So it was good, but you can't see it because we're not posting stuff on social right now. This from Monroe Boston Strauss. Good pie is an asset to every menu. Poor pie is a detriment regardless of who makes it. You may be outstanding for your pies, but so long as an operator in your community serves pore, you will never reach the peak of success in sales.
+
+[25:07] Your interest in good pies should extend to your neighbor. In helping him to help himself to make good pies, you help yourself. Let's overcome once and for all the soggy underbaked crust condition. How's that for a quote? Pretty good, yeah.
+
+[25:21] Very good quote. It's a good quote. Yeah, good quote. Um, anyway, all right. Um deer cooking issues crew.
+
+[25:32] This was from Monty. I splurge in order to control freak because of the chef steps discount. It is not arrived yet. I'm sure it's arrived by now. All right.
+
+[25:40] My question is about omelets. How do you control the temperature to keep the eggs from sticking, but not so high that they get too overcooked and tough on the bottom but are cooked all the way through? Uh, how would you dial that into a control freak? Would you be able to use the same principles for let's say crepes? Uh, thanks.
+
+[25:56] Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon. I didn't know they had a Jacksonville in Oregon. Nastasius, is uh you ever you ever heard of Jacksonville, Oregon? No. No.
+
+[26:06] Alright. Do you think it's uh similar to I'm trying the only Jacksonville, obviously, I can think of is Florida. It's the only Jacksonville I've ever been to. I had a rather negative experience in Jacksonville, Florida. Someone tried to uh run my wife and Mai's car off the road.
+
+[26:23] Not good. It was bad. Uh yeah, that that doesn't sound great. Yeah, it was the middle of the night. It was the kind of early 90s.
+
+[26:34] And it was, I don't know, like three in the morning or something like this, and we're flying down the road because I was trying to get to my grandparents' house, and I decided to take a nap, and my wife was driving, so I had the seat lean back. Which, yeah, yeah, I get it, Nastasia. Poor etiquette for me to lean back while my wife's driving. But on the other hand, we were driving 24 hours straight, no brakes, and I needed a little bit of time to kind of shut my eyes. And they thought that she was driving alone in the car, and so they pulled up like a side of us, and someone else pulled in front, and they started slowing down to stop the car and like push her off the side of the highway, and then I popped up and they sped off.
+
+[27:10] How crazy is that? Crazy. That's insane. Yeah, well, you know, the 90s, different time. Um don't blame it on the 90s when you can just as easily blame Florida.
+
+[27:21] Alright. Alright. I was I'll leave that at there. I'm not gonna insult Florida the way I know Nastasia will. What was the name of that person who came on who hated Florida so much?
+
+[27:29] She was awesome. Remember her? Anyway. Um so uh okay, so crepes and omelets, two different problems, right? The heat on a crepe, most of the the issues.
+
+[27:42] First of all, I'm gonna let John talk a little bit about crepes because I happen to like overcooked American style omelets. John, do you like overcooked American style omelets? I no, not really. Yeah. No, not really.
+
+[27:59] I'm definitely much more about the Nastasia. What about you? Omelets. Yeah. I like overcooked omelets.
+
+[28:06] Yeah, I think you like an American overcooked omelet? Because you grew up in Covina, land of American overcooked omelets. You probably like watery, chopped up like uh peppers in them, the same way I do. I like that stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[28:17] Uh what about you, Matt? Are you an omelet guy? Of course. Of course. And I probably never even had like a legit good one.
+
+[28:24] Oh, they're good. They're real good. Like they're creamy in the center. First of all, I gotta ask this question. How many of you show of voices?
+
+[28:32] How many of you enjoy scrambled eggs? I mean, yeah. Yep. Yes. Now, do you like the tiny creamy curd that you get from that kind of constant stirring?
+
+[28:44] Or like the big, fluffy, like not overcooked, but like some dry parts and some not the American style. American style. American. John? I prefer the wet, the smaller curds, constant stirring.
+
+[28:57] Yeah. Yeah. So that's speaking of French Culinary Institute. Like, at the French Culinary Institute, like, when you got to the restaurant thing, they would make you sit there and make omelets constantly because they want you to be able to make that French style omelet. And if you can't make that small curd-style scrambled egg at the French culinary, you were dead, dead in the water.
+
+[29:18] Wiley Dufrain, to this day, is a you know my brother-in-law, also a lover of both American cheese and eggs, like uh will only make the tiny curd, uh uh tiny curd stirred French style of uh scrambled egg. But crepes and omelets are different problems. With omelet, you're mainly worried about uh the sticking, so a lot of it's about the non stickness and also getting that thin film to wipe out and then letting it sit free itself, knocking it free at just the right moment and flipping it over. The reason American omelets are not the same isn't necessarily because of the pan, in my opinion. It's because of the stuff that it's added to it to change the kind of texture of the egg.
+
+[29:59] And the other issue is there's just too much egg in the pan. So like um you know like the way that I'll do it if I want like not that kind of American style texture is you can pull if you have a very non-stick like cast iron you can pull the skin back and then rerun fresh egg over it without kind of getting it fluffy or big and then fold it over and you can still keep the inside kind of wet. But anyway I see it as a fundamentally different kind of an issue. A crepe the real problem is just getting enough heat it being non stick but it getting enough heat onto it because that thin it's basically pouring like a thin bunch of water onto the bottom and you need like a heat heat back up pretty quickly. So I see them as fundamentally different problems.
+
+[30:43] But the control freak is gonna be great it it's I use it constantly in situations where I want a relatively high heat but I don't want to worry about scorching right so um like what's one thing that I do a lot you you know um you know how you take artichokes artichoke uh hearts and you you you quarter them and then you stick them in a pan with oil and then you uh you know I put a little salt sugar pepper whatnot but then you bring it up and the idea is to crisp up the bottom of the artichoke and steam it at the same time and then pull the lid off of the off of the uh pan so that it can really crisp up on the bottom after they just steam themselves and if you do it just right you get a brown crusty not burnt side on the on the artichoke heart and then the rest of it is kind of steamed perfectly. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? Yeah. You like that, right? No.
+
+[31:37] No? Yes, I said. Uh oh. Uh that is intensely easy to do on uh a control freak because you can set the pan to almost the exact temperature you want, and you can keep it kind of steaming and you can get it brown, but you're never going to kind of scorch it or overcook it, right? So it's like really good at stuff like that.
+
+[32:00] Uh I gotta be honest, I don't cook eggs on it because I just use my super, I just like crank the heat up on my gas thing and go. Cause I don't really worry about like hyper temperature control on um on my omelets and my scrambled eggs. But I don't know. But they the once you have the control freak, I think you'll find that there's lots of situations where uh here's another one. Like you you want to you're it's great for reheating, that's obvious, but like a lot of uh meats and whatnot, you want to bring them just up to like kind of uh a searing uh temperature, and then you want the lid on, you would pull off anytime you want to create that bottom crust without kind of burning it, it's great.
+
+[32:44] Uh therefore also like saute veg without burning, like like do you guys everyone likes brown. Well no, do you like Brussels sprouts? Do you guys like Brussels sprouts? Yeah, right, but you don't like it, I'm sure assuming you like it when they're brown but not burnt, right? And a lot of times it can be hard to kind of draw that line between brown and burnt, or especially if you're like me and you add a little bit of sugar to a lot of your veg, you tend to get scorching earlier than you otherwise would, and the control freak is kind of great for that.
+
+[33:14] So I think you're gonna find a lot of uh good uses for it. I mean, maybe it's gonna be good for crepes. It's hard for me to know because you know, I have a giant gas-fired cramped crepe maker that I use for crepes, and it's you know, why would I use anything else? Am I right? Anyway, I don't know.
+
+[33:30] Do you have anything? Do you have anything else to add about crepes or uh or omelets, guys? Nope. No. No.
+
+[33:39] Speaking of expensive big things, John, what is the name of that grill that we were looking at? Also from Ray Donovan, where I saw it the first time. God, I don't remember. I need to find that. It's did we talk about this on air already?
+
+[33:51] That the $20,000 grill. Yeah, yeah. How are we gonna get how are we gonna get our our tentacles into those people? And speaking of, Nastasia stopped eating uh cephalopods. Did you hear about this, people?
+
+[34:04] No. Yeah. She stopped eating cephalopods. All of a sudden, she decided they're too smart to eat, right? Yeah.
+
+[34:12] That's the breaking food news you should have led with. I mean, this is what the people need to know. I was like, octopus? She's like, no, it's sad, they're smart. I'm like, squid, no, sad, they're smart.
+
+[34:22] I was like, cuttlefish? She's like, don't care, don't eat them. I was like, I was like, okay, all right. But I yeah, I've I led with my argument, which is a that they're more like aliens, their intelligence is more like aliens than like mammal-style intelligence. And so maybe we should kill them so they don't take over and turn us into their butlers.
+
+[34:43] Because I swear to God, as soon as an octopus has the mutations whereby one, they uh can survive past mating, right? Because remember, after an octopus like does the deed and has kids, they die. That's so it's a one, it's a one-shot thing. So, like, after the male does the mating, it wanders off onto the bottom of the ocean to get eaten by other things. And after the female does the female eats a bunch of stuff, lays its, lays its eggs, and then just sits there blowing uh blowing water over the eggs to keep them from having uh you know things attack them or parasites, just sits there, doesn't eat the whole time after the you know after the eggs hatch, it you know, she wanders off and dies.
+
+[35:28] If they got rid of that habit, and if they didn't just die so damn young, they would definitely take over the world and kill us all. I don't think they would like us. What do you think, Staz? Yeah, I mean that would be exciting. Yeah, I think they would kill us.
+
+[35:44] Anyway, uh, and if they lived a little bit longer, but before they killed us, I would definitely make an aquarium with a motor on it and have a robot butler. For sure, I would have a robot butler. I mean uh an octopus butler with a like with a robot like movement thing. Wouldn't you? How awesome would that be?
+
+[36:03] Could you imagine, Stas, anything cooler than having a like a robotic aquarium driven by an octopus butler? Yeah, it'd be cool. Yeah, it'd be sick. Eight arms? I mean, I would just I mean, imagine.
+
+[36:17] Imagine. Oh my god. They're gonna present this audio in the in the like trial where they they put humanity on trial for crimes against octopi. This is gonna be uh oh, listen, when the cephalopods rule the world, if I should be so lucky to still be around, I will be the first person to get strung up because like you know, I know they're smart, they're just delicious, and I just want that butler because the coffee service would be amazing. Like, imagine an octopus butler doing like the Turkish coffee routine, all the cups simultaneously, stirring the e-brick, having it come up, and then like pouring it and just doing the whole thing at the same time.
+
+[36:59] You imagine how sweet that would be. Speaking of Turkish coffee, or as the Greeks call it, Greek coffee. John, is there any good place in the city that to get that? Not that I know of. Not in Manhattan, at least.
+
+[37:17] I bet you there's something good out in Queens. I want real with the with with the sand. Yeah. I want like good. I want to go back there someday.
+
+[37:27] Well, when we can travel again, maybe. Stars, remember that trip? Mm-hmm. That was fun. Uh, remember how we we almost broke our butts, rather, and you had to like like go down, you were walking barefoot all over Athens because it was just so damn slippery.
+
+[37:43] Yeah. Yeah. Because we had our work shoes on. I've said this before on the air, but I'll say it again. If you ever go to Athens, don't wear work shoes.
+
+[37:51] Wear the grippiest shoes you can possibly find, or you will trip and smash your head into a thousand pieces. True or false does. Yep. True. Yeah.
+
+[38:03] Alright. It's like walking over a uh a damned marble statue. It's crazy. It's dangerous. You know, I don't know.
+
+[38:09] I don't know how they I don't know how for thousands of years they had civilization. All right. From Antoine. Antoine wants to know if you're doing the Toki, the lowball. Uh I in fact I have sent that uh recipe to me, so I can do it.
+
+[38:23] Would you like me to? I mean, I'm just telling you. Jack sent me uh the recipe. So here is the syrup. Ready for it, people?
+
+[38:34] So the Toki Lowball is a joke. Uh I mean, the name is a joke because everyone was Toki is a Japanese whiskey made for the American market. So, as far as I know, Toki is not available in Japan. But Toki was designed specifically for highballs for whiskey highball. And the standard Toki highball is very low alcohol, very high, very high water content.
+
+[39:01] And so to kind of you know deal with that fact, you know, it it has it's a heavily bodied whiskey, not a strong flavor necessarily, not like overwhelming body from a flavor standpoint, but the actual body of it because they expect you to drink it at a very low alcohol percentage. I'm gonna tell you that when you're doing a highball, you should add some glycerin to it to body it up more, especially if you're doing it at the ratios that those guys are doing. Anyway, so uh Bobby Murphy from existing conditions made a syrup, and much like Bobby does, he uses unlike anything I do, everything Bobby does has like you know a bunch of different ingredients that like work with each other. So here's the recipe. 40 gram grams of uh lap sang suchong.
+
+[39:42] Now, we use a very nice uh lap song. So most, like a lot of Lopsong Suchong teas, which is a smoked tea, are so heavily smoked that uh it can almost be overwhelming. But the lap song that we're using here, and you should try to get a hold of one, is a very lightly the lightly smoked lop song, all right? Then 60 grams of wood dragon oolong, which is oolong tea, and then a hundred grams of the hoji cha chi with tea, which is like almost like sticks. They're like little sticks, it's not like it really a tea at all.
+
+[40:13] It's hojicha, h-o uh j-i-c-h-a. Then to that, do two and a half uh liters of water. The recipe in our specs I'll have to change because it actually says 25,000 liters of water, which would be quite a lot. Quite a lot. And then uh then sugar.
+
+[40:33] And so what you do is you you brew the tea, strain the tea, and then turn that into a 50-50, uh, add enough sugar to make a 50-50 simple syrup. So that's the Toki low ball syrup. That's the sweetener. And then the other part of the joke about uh what we're doing is instead of doing a high ball, the reason it's a low ball is it's relatively, especially for a carbonated product, relatively high in alcohol, uh served kind of short and on a rock. So because it's higher in alcohol, it's not as carbonated.
+
+[41:03] And here's the recipe for a large batch. So you'll have to do the math yourself. I don't have time. 5,625 milliliters of water, 4,500 milliliters of Toki whiskey, 563 milliliters of hojicha syrup, and 150 drops, which I have to do the math, but 150 drops. You can look at my book for the conversion.
+
+[41:29] I believe it's 20 drops to the milliliter uh of uh saline solution, and that's it, chill it and carbonate it. So uh that's the recipe, and you guys will have to do the math on how to how to undo it. Do you want to tell people about your bar opening? Isn't that the sweet? Well, we're shooting for it.
+
+[41:44] We're shooting for on Friday, opening up for outdoor service. We're gonna have a meeting. We just need to get all of our kind of ducks in a row to uh open it up, but it should be exciting, you know. We're gonna be out there um, you know, serving, serving drinks, doing the doing the stuff. Gotta see, gotta see how it works.
+
+[42:03] I know that the city uh got mad about what's been happening the last couple of weeks, and so we're just kind of looking to see other mistakes uh people have made in terms of not necessarily um taking care of the social distancing. You know, I just started having social distancing and anxiety dreams. I hadn't had them before, just the past couple of days. I've been having them where I like I'm all of a sudden I'm in this giant crowd and no one has masks and everyone's screaming at each other. Is this a dream that everyone's having now?
+
+[42:32] Whoa. No, huh? Stas, you having these kinds of dreams. All right, she's gone. She's she she's she's gone to the internet somewhere.
+
+[42:44] Yeah. Another thing is how long until the new TV programs have people wearing masks. I feel like all the TV programs I'm watching now are some alternate universe that no longer exists. It's so weird, you know what I mean? I I do find that very I don't know, frustrating right now.
+
+[43:02] And I well, because I like I'll watch something and I just get distracted by how happy these people look traipsing around New York, like you know, it's free. Yeah, I'm gonna go out and get something to eat. I'm gonna buy a cup of coffee. You know what I mean? And they're like talking to the person that they're getting coffee from, and like at which point I'm completely disengaged from whatever the story was supposed to be because I'm just like, oh, that'd be nice.
+
+[43:25] Yeah, yeah. But it's not like it's like you know, if they were shooting it now, we'd be like, No, get away, they're poison. You know what I mean? Like, whereas like they're just having an interaction. It's crazy anyway.
+
+[43:36] I guess that's because nobody's shooting stuff anymore, right? Because all of that stuff was put on hold. Uh whatever. No, yeah, nobody's shooting anything. I mean, I I uh some production companies are supposed to be like isolating entire shoots in random locations, but yeah, not in New York, that's for damn sure.
+
+[43:51] Yeah, yeah. Uh Fruit of Mora Cocktail wrote in. Uh hey Dave, uh reading your book, wanted to ask something. Can I replace Ticoloid 210S with another product for the preparation of Orjah? It's not very easy to find in Italy.
+
+[44:03] Thank you. Yes, you can substitute a mixture of uh gum Arabic and Xanthan. Uh I forget what the ratio is. I'll try to get it for next week. Uh I have it penciled into the copy of Liquid Intelligence that I keep at the bar, which is the very first uh copy, a hard copy of Liquid Intelligence that was printed.
+
+[44:21] I have it at the bar and I have it penciled in. But if my memory serves me correctly, it is um one, it is four parts gum Arabic to one part Xanthan or thereabouts, and you can use that. Um Anonymous wrote in more uh uh control free question. Would you recommend a control freak for sauces with high sugar content? I'm finding trying to find a way to keep and maintain a sauce with a high sugar content.
+
+[44:44] What would the best way be? Well, I'm not sure what the problem with the high sugar content sauce is, uh, like what the problem is. If the problem is that you're boiling over, the sucker's gonna boil over whether it's in a control freak or not, because sugary sauces tend to boil over, but it is very good for not going over temperature. Um, I mean, I I I do stuff like sugars and those kinds of boils in in the control freak just because I can get a relatively high uh heat input without going over temperature, so it's kind of good for that kind of stuff. Um, I don't know, John.
+
+[45:16] Do you have any feeling about what they were asking like more in depth in that or no? Like, what do you think about it? Not really, but I'm sure we can get him to elaborate a little bit more for next time. Yeah, uh Ann Titus wrote in by email. I wanted to uh briefly follow up by the question I sent a while back.
+
+[45:31] I asked about Dave's thoughts slash advice regarding ventilation in the kitchen because my at the time range hood didn't seem to do anything other than make noise. After thinking through Dave's con uh Dave's comments, we finally invested in a quality hood that vents outside. It has been a fantastic investment. I'm glad to hear this. Uh both smoke and grease residue are greatly diminished, which my family appreciates, since I have a tendency of creating a lot of smoke, as does anyone that cooks.
+
+[45:55] I like I can't tell you. I okay, well, I'm gonna finish what they wrote, which my family appreciates is have a tendency of creating a lot of smoke, searing, stir-frying, making uh a temporary oil for Indian food is all much better now. So uh thanks for your advice. You have fixed my cooking issue, kind regards and end. That is great.
+
+[46:12] And I have to say that I know a lot of people whose cooking lives are completely affected by the fear of smoke, you know. Um there's there's one the fear of smoke, and so like I've been having, you know, I I have been dealing with that. I've been torturing my wife for the past 25 years with smokiness in the in the kitchen. Um, and for the past I would say 10 or 11 years, I've been worried about smokiness as kind of a health issue, and I think that there's a lot more people now, and you're in and I said this years ago, but it really is true. Like in the upcoming years, indoor air quality, I think is gonna become a much bigger focus, especially now that all of us are inside all the time, right?
+
+[46:58] Is it gonna become a much bigger focus for uh health, and almost all apartments and houses are built with absolutely atrocious indoor air quality, especially uh when it comes to um the kitchen. But and for those of you that cook heavily, I mean, you hey Nastasi, when you go visit apartments, are you gonna like remember when you go visit an apartment and you could tell someone cooked? You visit the reason I'm asking you is you visited apartments more recently than I have, like to look for them, right? You can look up high on the ceiling and you can tell how much they cooked by how big of like a filth like residue grease garbage they have around the ceiling, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[47:29] Yeah. And it's because there's no good there's no good ventilation. I really think that there's something to be done there. And I personally need to strike the balance because I know people come into my house and they're like, oh, it's smoky in here, and I'm like, and what? And I should care because why?
+
+[47:51] You know what I mean? And I really think I kind of should care more. So like I do get mad when people ruin dinner because they're worried about a little bit of smoke that's just uh transient. But on the other hand, I think it probably is bad for you, and there's more and more research coming out to say it. So anyway, try to get your uh ventilation in uh good order.
+
+[48:11] How how is a how does your kitchen vent uh at uh Stanford just open a window or do you have like like a hood? No, there's no vent, a window. And is the window at least close to the stove? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[48:24] That's another problem. People don't own their apartments in New York most of the time, and so like they can't even really make an investment to try to make it make it nice. I think it's a real problem. What about you? How's your ventilation uh, John?
+
+[48:37] No machinery or anything like that, but my stove is right next to a door that goes out to uh this rooftop patio. So I just open that and have a fan point it out that way, and it helps. It doesn't make all the difference, but I always unplug the smoke detector when I'm cooking. Oh smoke, smoke detectors. Don't get me started on smoke detectors.
+
+[48:56] Do you um do you cook outside a lot, John? No, I would like to, but no. Why why don't you? Is it they would they would you get caught by somebody? Would you get like arrested?
+
+[49:07] I don't know. With the old super, he wasn't really cool with us rolling outside, but this new one from the last like two years seems pretty cool. So I'm gonna I don't know, I'm gonna try and get a grill or something this summer once the asbestos abatement is done. I told I I told you about the time I got the fire department called on me, right? No.
+
+[49:26] Yeah. So I lived in an illegal loft on the twentieth floor of a building in the garment district. And this building, I moved in in ninety seven, and this building was complete filth. When I say filth, I don't just mean like the fact that prostitutes would break in at night to turn tricks in the lobby, because that's also true. I don't mean that it was just I spent the first uh couple of weeks uh in this place with with my wife scraping gum off of the floor inside of our unit, because that's also true.
+
+[50:08] By the way, when you walk into New York City and you look down on the subway and you see all those black dots, people that's gum. That is gum. Uh and so like what I mean is that the working conditions in this garment building were so atrocious they wouldn't supply um bathrooms for the workers, and they would go into the fire stairwell and use it as the restroom for both number one and number two. It was crazy. This is like b like pre you know, pre-current, like the way New York is now.
+
+[50:40] You would the you couldn't you couldn't even afford to rent a commercial loft in this space now. Anyway, so we're there, and uh I had I didn't have any act outdoor space, but I did have access to this fire stairwell, and no one was pooping in my section of the fire stairwell because I was on the top floor. So you had to go down at least one or two floors to get into kind of the heavy latrine section of the fire stairwell. So anyway, so like uh after I realized that you know, after business hours, no one was coming up there, I was like, to hell with it, and I bought a giant grill. You know, one of those not expensive, but you know, they're based on a 55-gallon drum, like the giant round ones.
+
+[51:18] You know the ones I'm talking about? Yeah. Cheap but big, cast iron grates, and you know, I snuck it up the elevator and I put it into this fire stairwell, and I would cook like these immense meals off of this grill, uh, using like live flame charcoal on the top of a uh in, you know, basically inside of this building in in New York. And one day, they finally, after four and a half years, installed smoke detectors in the hallway, and I didn't know about it. And there was a there was a temperature inversion.
+
+[51:51] And so what happened is is the wind, instead of going like kind of through the hallway out the fire uh uh, you know, stairwell and up, went the other way and sucked the smoke into the building. And I had I was cooking, you know, I I would go to my butcher, Michael at the time, and he would get me all kinds of crazy stuff, like rack of goat, like giant stakes, like anything where he illegally got me lungs when I asked for them because I wanted to do some lung-based dishes, which were illegal in the US. So like I had like all this meat going, and I didn't realize that there was gonna be a problem until that smoke detector went off. I immediately, of course, beat it with a bat until the stopped making noise, but I didn't know it was connected to the fire department. So the fire department, a whole group of firefighters, comes running up in full turnout gear, 20 flights of stairs to make it to me, right?
+
+[52:44] To see what's going on. And then they see me grilling, and I'm grilling with all this live fire in the you know, in this fire stairwell. And the the firefighter, she looks at me and she's like, what the hell are you doing? And I was just like, uh I'm I'm grilling. She's like, what the hell are you doing with live fire in a fire stairwell on the 20th floor in New York?
+
+[53:20] And I uh look at her, you know, and you all you hear is from the meat, and I'm like, tastes better. And she's turned around and walked away. That was it. Wait, what? Yeah, turned around and walked away.
+
+[53:41] I was like, wow. I mean, did you offer them some? Yeah. No, I mean, like, it wasn't done yet. I was like, I think and then I think then her like underling, I was like, was like, yeah, you you you have to stop.
+
+[53:58] You know, you know, I was like, eh, okay. You're you're like, in my defense, I've been doing this for four years. Yeah, my defense, I've been doing this a long time, does taste much better. But like, yeah, like somehow, like I get in these situations where, like, you know, and Nastasia knows I have this habit, like I sometimes I can just get this look on my face where people like don't know kind of how to deal with it, and then they just walk away, right, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[54:23] I don't know. It happens all the time. Anyways, tastes better. Five minutes. Alright, so uh in honor of the French Culinary Institute, uh, for the classics in the field.
+
+[54:29] Classics in the field, yeah. I I won't do the milling one. I will do uh the fundamental techniques of classic cuisine from the French Culinary Institute. And the reason I'm choosing this is that you know, since the FCI slash the ICC is not going to be um its own standalone uh thing anymore. When I first started teaching there, all of their there wasn't a lot of like good cooking information on the internets, and when you went to school there, like and you wouldn't get a book, a textbook.
+
+[55:07] Instead, you got all of these loose leaf binders, like old school loose leaf binders that were full of like all of the recipes, and you know, they would make changes and they were all written, like I said before at the beginning of the show by the deans. And the very first book they compiled that was kind of the distillation of their program was the fundamental techniques of classic cuisine, and this is kind of like um a glossier, newer version of kind of uh what they would teach you on how to do this very specific style of restaurant cooking. So if you want to learn like you know how to do the classic vegetable like a l'anglaise where you make the parchment disc and you cut the hole in the center, and you you know, you put the you put the the water and like the pad of butter and the um and the little parchment over it. You're familiar with this one, John? No, yeah, but using a cartouche?
+
+[56:03] Well, there's a ling glaze and there's Etou Vay, right? So there's two, is that what you call it a cartoon? It's just like a piece of parchment that you cut into a circle and put over your pan. Yeah, okay, yeah, cartouche. Yeah.
+
+[56:12] So like they had those two different ways of cooking. If you want to, if you want to learn how to do to turn vegetables, which are the little footballs, which nobody does anymore. Does anyone still make the footballs, John? Not that I know of. Why would you?
+
+[56:24] Well, because it's like it's a dumb fun skill. So one of the one of the things about learning to cook in in large scale versus small scale is you have to learn to do a lot of prep, right? And so, like I was gonna say, like, you know, you haven't busted down a chicken until you've busted down like 50 chickens in a row, right? Because then you really get chicken into the bloodstream. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[56:46] You get the feel of the chicken in your hands. And so chickens are expensive, so one of the things they would have you bust through is they'd have you turn 8 billion potatoes or 8 billion carrots, and then they'd have you go home and turn it. What that is is you're making, like I say, these little footballs, which are very old school French. But if you want to learn like turning and cooking vegetables, uh, you can you know get it out of get it out of this book. They show you, you know, if you want to learn like the the height of like French, like French American style French restaurant cooking in like the 90s and early 2000s, you gotta pick up the book.
+
+[57:24] And I gotta say, I have a soft spot for this kind of cooking, which is kind of weird. You wouldn't think I would, but I do. Uh so anyway, in honor of them merging with uh ice, uh that I'm I'm I'll look through it now, and oh, here's their here's their omelets. Anyway, uh so pick that book up if you want to know kind of the theory and technique of what all of those people who went to that school, uh, even those who talk crap about it, like uh Dave Chang and uh, you know, part my our partner Dave Chang, Wiley Dufrein, Bobby Flay. Do you know Bobby Flay was the in the very first class of uh the French Culinary Institute?
+
+[58:02] So they, you know, they started with it with uh with a hit. They uh they got a famous uh chef right out of the gate. Um uh Alex Guarnichelle, Christina Toze. I think Alex Guarnicelli was there. Maybe she wasn't.
+
+[58:16] Anyways, uh, so pick that up if you if you want that kind of thing. You guys got anything else? I'm gonna make it on time today. Yeah, no. All right, so listen.
+
+[58:27] Let's do it. John says in two weeks, I think Nastasi's gonna want a little later for the bread. Write in some questions. Let us know if there's anything you want to know, how to cook any issues you're having. We'll see you next week.
+
+[58:37] Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[58:52] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[59:15] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Ashley Madison was built for discretion.
+
+[59:32] It's not for everyone, it's for people who don't want a spotlight, who don't need validation, who don't want their curiosity turned into content. A place designed for privacy and choice, where connections happen quietly and always on your terms. Because some things are better when no one else is watching. Where desire meets discretion, Ashley Madison. Download the app now or visit AshleyMadison.com/slash iHeartMedia.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Burlap and Barrel, a public benefit corporation working directly with smallholder spice farmers around the world to source unique, beautiful spices for professional chefs and home cooks. HRN is offering complimentary business memberships to 50 black indigenous people of color owned food businesses this summer. The deadline to apply is July 31st. Each business membership, a $500 value, is an advertising opportunity that will allow businesses disproportionately impacted by COVID 19 to connect with HRN's listening community and promote their work. To apply and review the terms and conditions, go to heritageradionetwork.org slash B I Z.
+
+[0:50] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from my house in the Lower East Side. We got a big show for you today. It's the 10th anniversary special, even though it was actually our 10th anniversary like two and a half weeks ago, but we're so disorganized here that we just can't get stuff done on time, as you will see for the rest of the show. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in Stanford, Connecticut.
+
+[1:16] How are you? Good. We Oh, that's great. Why don't you give me some 10th anniversary vibes, S. Happy anniversary?
+
+[1:24] Yeah, you sound it sound sound overjoyed. Overjoyed to be here. What? Always forget our anniversary. What does it have to do with anything?
+
+[1:33] Again, nobody cares about anything that happens outside of the 45 minute window of the show. Everything else is just is just noise. You know what I mean? Anyway. We got uh we got uh John from Booker Index hanging in uh Murray Hill.
+
+[1:49] How you doing? Not too bad, thank you. Of course, we got uh Matt in the in in his booth in Brooklyn somewhere. I'm assuming you haven't gone back to Rhode Island. I'm actually closer to I'm in Alexandria, Virginia right now.
+
+[2:00] Close to Jackie Molecules. Oh nice, I assume. Alright, well, and for our two special guests we have today, the very first man in the booth, Jackie Molecules! How you doing? I'm great.
+
+[2:17] Listen to Jack. Jack, Jack, of course, you know, a professional recording uh personage has a real studio mic that he's calling in on. So even though he's, you know, doing this out of the kindness of his own heart, he's gonna sound uh the best of all of us. How are you doing? I have a reputation uphold, you know.
+
+[2:33] Yeah, you do sound amazing on that microphone. So smooth. You sound great too. It's almost like being in Bushwick. You know, I was never really in the same room as you guys anyway.
+
+[2:42] I was always in the booth, so it's not that different. Well, I guess, but you had that like glass, that plexiglass window that you could look into, you know? Yeah, it's true. Knock on the window when it's things were getting out of hand. Um how did you come by how did you come up with how did we end up calling you Jackie Molecules?
+
+[2:58] How did that end up happening? Oh, that's a you don't remember that story? It's so good. I don't want to I don't want to trash the sponsor, but there was a sponsor that offered to support the show. Oh and they had the word molecular in their name.
+
+[3:10] And you were like, yeah, I'm not reading that. You're like, if you want to read it, you can read it. You can be Jackie Molecules. Oh, I just cursed. I'm sorry.
+
+[3:20] Oh, you know, family show. Nastasi doesn't want to be a family show, but whatever. I'm the worst. I'm sorry. I come from a different time.
+
+[3:27] Well, also in Washington, DC, where why don't you want to plug your uh you want to plug what you're doing down there? Well, I'm not doing much of anything right now because the space in which full service radio exists is uh temporarily closed. Uh, but I do have a radio network called Full Service Radio. And uh yeah, there's plenty of good stuff to check out there. Are you doing are you doing uh you're you're not doing it uh from people's houses?
+
+[3:50] You're like just on a hiatus, or it's just uh what's going on? Mostly a hiatus, some things are continuing. Um I'm doing a music show every week still, but yeah, it's pretty calm. I'm cooking most of the time. Oh, what are you cooking?
+
+[4:03] What have you cooked recently? Cooking through the PacPac book. Oh, nice. I just spoke to Andy Ricker a couple days ago. Yeah.
+
+[4:10] Oh, it's it's a great book. Yeah, I'm making trips to Falls Church and getting all the ingredients and it's a blast. Nice, nice. And uh our other by the way, that w they were a mismatched sponsor for us because you know they're there, they threw the word molecular. For those of you, I haven't gone on this rant in a long time because nobody has talked about this in a long time.
+
+[4:31] But everyone used to call everything molecular, molecular gastronomy, molecular debaggery, molecular, you know, skullduggery, whatever it was. And it I just used to get so ticked off by it, and I would just like immediately explode, and then the sponsor came in and was like, they were called molecular something, and I said, I was like, you understand that I can't say the name of your company without also making fun of it. And Jack, correct me if I'm wrong. They were like, ah, we're okay with it, we're okay with it. But then when they realized I was actually going to do it every single time.
+
+[5:07] Yeah, basically. They finally, they finally uh Well, so that that I think that's why I did the sponsor read and thus Jackie Molecules was born. Yeah, sweet Jackie Moles. And I I still I there are still moments, I mean, not now obviously, but if I'm traveling, I go to bars and somehow it comes up, they're like, You're Jackie Molecules, what? Yeah, dude.
+
+[5:28] It's it's stuck. The legend, the molecules. Uh, which is so funny because I can't imagine you like chilling with a whole t uh ton of hydrocolloids. It's just not your jam. Yeah.
+
+[5:40] It's not my thing, man. No. Anyway. Uh, and special guests, and this one I know a lot of people have been waiting for, and she's time limited, right? Time limited.
+
+[5:51] We have life coach, friend of the show, currently from Tulum, Mexico, broadcasting out of some sort of jungle paradise. Claire Sellers, how you doing? Hi. Oh my gosh, I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here.
+
+[6:09] And I just can't believe it's been 10 years. I mean, it feels like 20, right? It feels like 20. It feels like a hundred. Yeah.
+
+[6:17] I remember when when Stas, the hammer first started doing this. Weren't you guys doing it like in a weird place? Same place. Yeah. Yes, and same place.
+
+[6:29] Well, it feels like it's been a really long time. Um, and I've loved being part of it. Excited to celebrate you all today. Well, you know, Claire has a special skill of being able to instantly set me off. I don't know what it is about you, Claire.
+
+[6:49] I don't either. It's so it it must have been a past life situation or something between us. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't really understand it, but I do know this. I know that like the last time Claire was on, which was Nastasi, how long ago was that?
+
+[7:05] Oh god, a couple months ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Apparently, apparently I went off. Yeah, you are. We're not gonna replay that one on this air right now.
+
+[7:12] It was it was hard to get me back on after that. That's what I'm saying. I heard it was that, and you gotta understand, people, that like once I'm on a roll, it's like it's like a snowball. It just gets worse and worse and worse as it goes down the hill. It doesn't get better.
+
+[7:32] I don't like I don't suddenly moderate myself as I'm rolling down the hill, right? Yeah, that was bad. That almost yeah, Claire and I had a bad friendship for a couple weeks. Yeah, I was that was top three maddest I've ever been at you, hands down. That means you know number two.
+
+[7:50] They all happen in a very concentrated period. So Stoss must have been on bad behavior during that time. Well, I mean, duh. Duh. Wow.
+
+[8:01] But uh, yeah, well, I mean, the the the real problem with that one, Claire, and you guys will have to go look this up because again, we're not gonna play it on the air, is uh that the boondoggler, Rebecca, Rebecca the Boondogler, our our uh flack extraordinaire for Booker and Dax, she like was on my side. I think that's what tipped it to the evil zone for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's not what we're here to talk about today, Claire.
+
+[8:30] No, but Dave, I'm not gonna be a little bit more than that. We're not here to talk about your love of Chardonnay. No, not love of Chardonnay, but are we here to talk about vegetes? I believe that you are here today to discuss the Vigetti Chronicles. This the Vig the Vegetti Chronicles, uh, for those of you that don't know what a vegetti is, it is a spiralizer.
+
+[8:53] It is a it's something it's a handheld. You jam your you jam your hard vegetable sticks into the vegetti, twist them off, and they get spiralized. Zero calorie zoodles is the result. Okay. So somehow Claire starts calling in with vegetti stuff, and then should we just listen to it?
+
+[9:19] Should we just listen to the clip or no? Let's just listen to Vegetti number one. Oh my gosh. My friend just got a vegetti. That is the grossest word you've ever done.
+
+[9:32] Ever. Do you know what it is? Yes. Why don't you describe to our like a spiralizer for vegetables? I want to spaghetti.
+
+[9:43] Like you can't really. No. Well, I mean like squash, including like zucchinis. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:47] That's all. And then you make like veggie pastas and stuff like that. Yeah, pastas. Uh, what kind of non-English speaker was like vegetti? That's a good name.
+
+[9:56] Vigeti. Jack, would you ever like knowingly eat something that came out of a vegetti? I'm not gonna answer that question. Why would it? Not gonna answer that question.
+
+[10:10] Oh god, vegetti. Moving on. Yeah. But anyways. Answer the question, Jack.
+
+[10:16] Well, look. Maybe. But the stupid thing is it's supposed to be like healthy for you, but all the recipes say like use the vegetti and then fry the noodles and then, you know. Well, I hate any I hate anything who's pineapple. No, but it's stupid.
+
+[10:31] Yeah. Uh Wow, Vegetti. You just threw me for a loop. You threw me for a loop. I'll tell you what I don't like.
+
+[10:38] Uh here's what I Okay, okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You know spaghetti squash? Yeah. You can't.
+
+[10:44] In the 70s, right? When I first became aware of spaghetti squash, because that's when I first became aware of anything, because that's the you know, I was born in 71. So uh what they would people would do, and by people I mean my mom, who's a great cook, great cook, and I actually just went to her, like uh I went to her anyway. Her she just got honored recently because she started the pediatric heart transplant program at Columbia University. Who, by the way, I did not realize this, did the first pediatric cardiac transplant successful anywhere.
+
+[11:12] Yeah. She did incredible days. Look, here's the thing. Everyone, uh, look, if for any surgeons that might be listening, you're not going to take an insult to this. Everyone's like, oh, it's the surgeon, it's a surgeon.
+
+[11:22] Listen, the surgeon comes in, they cut the heart out, they put the new heart in, they they they sew it back together, and then they're done. Like the the care beforehand and afterwards, right? Is there gonna be whether or not this person lives for a long time or doesn't? You know what I'm saying? More vegetti ever.
+
+[11:36] She's a cardiologist. Surgeon's a surgeon, cardiologist a cardiologist. Oh, is that the secret? You can't listen to your own tangents. Uh my point is, uh spaghetti squash.
+
+[11:46] So my mom used to make the spaghetti squash, but the problem is spaghetti squash can be delicious if you steam the sucker, right? Or whatever, roast, whatever. Shred it into its little noodle lips or whatever you call those things. And then like butter, like lots of butter and other stuff, maybe some crunchy stuff in. You know what it's not good as?
+
+[12:04] It's not freaking spaghetti. You don't put a can of uh or a jar of pasta sauce into the spaghetti squash. This is why they shouldn't have called it this. You know what I mean? Spaghetti squash carbonara.
+
+[12:18] It's gross. It's gross. It doesn't taste like spaghetti. I would go back to like uh to go back to what Jack was saying earlier. One of the few things uh I learned about making pasta.
+
+[12:30] I mean I may have made a lot, lot, lot of it, but you know, never I became very good at it, was that you could add anything to it to add color and it doesn't change the flavor. So, you know, originally I would care what I added to it to, and then eventually I'm like, ketchup, whatever. I want it to be red, I'm gonna dump a bunch of ketchup in. Because it doesn't matter. Like the vast majority of the ingredient is the flour, and there you're not gonna get any flavor out of it.
+
+[12:51] It's all left in. Agree, Stas? Yeah. Yeah. The the wine Santa.
+
+[12:55] No! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is very conf it's very confusing to hear ourselves talk about ourselves over ourselves. Oh yes, yeah, but you know, got it. It's like it's like mystery science theater, except it's you in the movie as well.
+
+[13:09] Well, yeah, no, except mystery science theater, mystery science theater episode. Yeah, exactly. It's like infinite regression of mystery science. It's insane. So listen, Claire was not satisfied with my, and now that I listen to it, I can see why, not satisfied with my clear non-response to the question of what to do with her vegetti.
+
+[13:30] So she called back in for the Vigetti Chronicles number two, which is actually the more important one, and I'm not able to go on tangents here because here it is a back and forth on the phone with Claire about her vegetti. Should we listen to it? Absolutely. This is this is the true payoff. So I hate to have to say this, but I have a caller on the line who's upset with the way you treated her vegetti.
+
+[13:57] Oh my goodness. Hi, Dave. Hi, God. Oh my goodness. I thought you were so embarrassed.
+
+[14:06] That's the greatest. That's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. So, Dave, I was listening a couple weeks ago, and I heard you were talking badly about the vegetti. Uh just the name. The name.
+
+[14:25] The name. But you don't trust the noodle, the the product. Uh no, you don't trust the product. You said that noodle the you said that you didn't trust the product. We were talking about vegetable examples, and now they're not a mirror.
+
+[14:41] I think it could be an interesting, I think it could be an interesting, look, I mean, I think like shredded, like like daikon shreds and strips are delicious, right? Yeah. Many shredded things. Shredded. Or like strips, noodles.
+
+[14:55] Spiralize. Oh my gosh. You know what? All right. All right.
+
+[15:01] Uh and so you have a you have a you have a a vested steak in the in the vegetti device, or more just a love for it? I have a what? Are are you like part of the vegetti corporation, or do you just have uh just just have No, I just I got one because I'm, you know, trying to cut back on the carbs and it changed my life. I mean, you can you can use it for everything. Like um, vegetti carbonara, vegetti and meatballs.
+
+[15:29] I mean, it's like wait, did you say vegetti and meatballs? I mean, it's amazing. You can do vegetti fritters. Yeah. Dave looks like he wants to kill himself.
+
+[15:43] You ever done like sausage and vegetti, sausage in the gravy with the vegetti? I'm not gonna I'm not well here's the here here's uh okay. And what's your favorite things to v to to vegettiize? Or spiralize, as you would say. What are your favorite things to uh to spiralize in the vegeti?
+
+[16:00] Uh well I pretty much exclusively spiralize zucchini of the green and yellow variety. But doesn't that just turn on? I've never really done anything else. I don't I think that you know it has to be um a little bit soft. I think that like a potato or a carrot would be a little too much for the spiralizer tea, you know.
+
+[16:21] Now, how how big is the opening to the vegetti? How big is the opening to it? Like what what size of a veg can you stick into that thing? I mean, like a zucchini size. You could do a cucumber.
+
+[16:36] You could do like a cold cucumber salad. So you can put a cucumber in the vegetti. Okay. All right. All right.
+
+[16:45] All right, hold on. Here's my question then. Dave, I'm gonna send you one for your birthday. Uh all right. Well, we'll play around with it.
+
+[16:52] We'll play around with it. And and why don't you experiment with it and then you know, I'll I'll call back in and we can go from there. That's a fair deal. That's a fair deal. That's a good deal.
+
+[17:01] All right, we'll do. I have I haven't busted out a lot of like uh we haven't done a lot of side-by-sides or like you know, culinary tests in the past year or so because I've been you know focused more on bar and the cookbook and everything and the sears all. But we will definitely reopen our testing, uh, our the testing phase of our career with the vegetti. I look forward to it. Thanks, Claire.
+
+[17:21] Well, thank you. And I'll say that the Searzol and Vigetti are a great match. Well, we'll test it for you. Uh when you send it, send send your favorite things that you like to do. Bye by the way.
+
+[17:32] Oh my god. I would like my God. Okay. I would like to note that let's remember Claire likes a slightly soft thing to get shoved into her vegetti. That was my takeaway.
+
+[17:51] She likes, like, you know, if it's too hard, it doesn't really, it hurts the vegetti. You gotta go with a slightly softer, like a zucchini. That was the craziest thing ever. Claire, how much did you realize what you were saying as you were saying it? Well, now that I listened back, I'm like, why is Dave such a perv?
+
+[18:10] Oh, oh, oh, because I had to go such a long way to get there, right? Like, it was so hidden. The entire studio, we like could barely speak because it was so crazy. To answer your question, I didn't. I don't think I realized it.
+
+[18:26] I've never heard it. I never listened to these shows after, unless I'm on them. And go ahead. What? So I never realized.
+
+[18:36] I mean, yeah, it's it's highly sexual, but I don't think I realized that at the time. Uh-huh. So when you're talking about it. It's kind of awkward. I feel a little bit uncomfortable listening with that back, I'm not gonna lie.
+
+[18:49] When you yeah, when you saw the word vegetti, and they you were talking about shoving cucumbers and zucchinis into it, really nothing popped into your head? I mean, I'm sure something did, but I don't think to the to the degree that I was articulating it at the time. I had forgotten about the slightly soft Nastasia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my dude.
+
+[19:15] I mean, it was like send a vegetti. Yeah, I did. I'm a woman of my word, everybody. And I believe there was a Vegetti Chronicles part three at some point where once we spent the entire time talking about quote unquote things you could shove into the vegetti. Yep.
+
+[19:34] Yep. Yeah. I believe was the terminology that we used. Where Claire has to go. Claire, plug your stuff.
+
+[19:44] Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Plug away. Plug away. Well, as you all know, if you're following me on Instagram at Claire underscore Penelope, I am a life and career coach, and I help people find more fulfilling and meaningful work and create more freedom in their lives.
+
+[20:04] So would you say you help people choose what the right things to stick into their vegetti is? That's actually not part of my practice, but have you have you considered like some sort of like vegetti consulting, like the how to get good results out of your vegetti? No, but I mean after this, I feel like maybe that's something I should look into. How to love and care for your own vegetti. No, but I it's I that's a great um suggestion, B.
+
+[20:34] I appreciate that. Yeah. Ugh Tlume is so amazing. It's been yeah, it's just like really nice to be in paradise and relaxing and yeah, I'm very, very grateful. Hey hey, Claire, here's something you might like for entirely different reasons.
+
+[20:52] You're in Tulum. Well, so in Tulum, you can get the Melapona honey. That's where it's from. So like in fact, right outside of Tulum, I've never been there, but I've seen the pictures and wish I was there. There is a a shop, like a a a building that is a the Tulum kind of honey shop.
+
+[21:10] And inside of that, you can get the Melopona honey. Melopona honey is a is a stingless honey bee. There's actually less sugar. It's slightly less sweet than American honey. So American, well, the rest of the world's honey, not America.
+
+[21:23] The rest of the world's honey is about 82% sugar. And Melopona honey is somewhere like 70 or something, so a little more than than maple syrup. But uh it's made by these tiny uh stingless bees that um are you know becoming endangered. It's but people think it has health and medicinal qualities, and you know I don't care or agree with any of that stuff. But I love the taste of it, and you can really only get it where you are.
+
+[21:51] She went to go get some. Wow, that's no, no, Dave, do you know what's so crazy? I'm not even kidding you. Right now, I'm look I'm gonna send you guys a picture. I'm looking at a sign.
+
+[22:00] It says, Did you know these bees are called melopona and do not sting? They are not harmful. They are also known as the Mayan bees. They were raised by the Mayans. The honey they produce is rich and uses medical treatment in the Mayan communities.
+
+[22:14] There's a sign right here, and my friend got wait, she must have gotten stung by one of those, but she did get stung by a bee the other day. But anyway, source that honey for you. Oh well, here's the thing. Why don't you you know what if here's what I want you to do since you're down there, Claire. And since you're an entrepreneur, here's what you should do.
+
+[22:32] I am is uh is look on eBay in the United States and see how much people are charging for that. And then like that's it. That's your that's your money now. Wait, that's your money. Actually, I'm very interested.
+
+[22:44] Maybe we could partner together on that. I don't know. You gotta be careful. I don't want to exploit that. I like.
+
+[22:50] Here's the thing. I I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who used to smuggle in that stuff, but you we don't want to be in a in a quinoa situation where like you know all of a sudden no one who has you know culturally depended on this honey for centuries can't afford it anymore because some jerkweed in in San Francisco or New York wants to buy it all you know what I mean? Oh no we wouldn't we would do it ethically for sure let me do some research talk to some people and then we can definitely recruit on that I love the idea stuff that would be fun for us to do together too do you know that the very first business that Nastasia ever started was actually with me do tell well it's called borrowed horses and it was we got the idea because I have photo proof of this I got the idea well we got the idea because we were working in Switzerland where we met in case you don't know our origin story I'm sure we've talked about it before that we met working in Switzerland and we found we were cooking for like a hundred and fifty foreign children and at this camp and we saw we were going on a walk one day and we saw this field and there were all these horses in the field and I'm uh somewhat accomplished equestrian some would say and so I just like hopped the fence and started riding these horses and Nastasia like took all these pictures she never rode them I feel like but it was just like the most magical situation ever. And so then a few weeks later we were on the beach in the south of France, and on the back of a baguette bag, we wrote out our business plan for this like food experience company called Borrowed horses. And we actually found the email the other like a few weeks ago.
+
+[24:43] And the stuff that we've put on the menu is just like shameful. Like it felt like it was from the 90s. It was so like not cool anymore. But that was like beat beaten goat cheese salad while you steal somebody's horse. You know they kill horse thieves.
+
+[24:58] Well, I what I made friends with the farmer after. Uh-huh. Friends. It's hard to get mad at me. You're the only person I know who actually gets mad at me.
+
+[25:07] That can't be true. Literally, I I honestly can't think of the last time anyone was mad at me except you. Yeah. Well, I'm not allowed to talk about it, but okay. Well, Stas gets mad at me too.
+
+[25:19] Well, let's not forget. I mean, okay, okay. I'm not gonna bring up the count chocula. I won't bring up the count chocula. There'll be no mention.
+
+[25:29] Yeah, but with count chocolate, I I freaking bought her five boxes of count chocula to replace the half bag I ate. Listen, I still don't understand that. When you punch yourself in the face, it doesn't mean you didn't punch that other person in the face first. I don't want someone's anger over, you boil their anger over, and then you do something to make up for it, doesn't actually make up for it. Nastasi, am I right on this or no?
+
+[25:54] Yes, it does. We're not getting into it. Clearly appreciate so illogical. Okay. Okay.
+
+[26:07] Listen, Nastasi is building up all year. She's like, it's gonna be count chocolate time. It's going to be count chocolate time. And then like she buys the count chocolate, she like puts flowers around it. She makes like you know, like uh like in that movie Midsummer, like the flower garland around it, and people are getting murdered all around her, but the count chocolates in its own cabinet.
+
+[26:30] It's like count chocolate. She comes back and boom. Desecrated with face cream. But can I also just I I don't even like remember how this came out, but just for sake of painting the full picture for the audience here, since I know they typically do side with me. I was actually on a train at three o'clock in the morning from New York City to Connecticut to go be with my friend, my dear friend Nastasia, to go be with her so that I could be present or in the early morning to help her set up for our Halloween party.
+
+[27:11] That's an interesting lie to tell. You know the train stopped before. Yeah, I did need a snack. You know the train stopped before three? No.
+
+[27:22] What, Amtrak? Metro North doesn't I it was literally like it was literally the middle of the night, and I was on a train in Connecticut on the way to Connecticut. And I took a car, a cab, whatever. Oh, she was on the first morning train. So I like the three 40s and just sit with that.
+
+[27:42] Oh, um, when you're when you're thinking about the situation, just sit with that. I'll sit with it. Yeah, because I mean I can already tell by your energy that you feel bad. So I think thank you, Clara, for coming on. Dave, I really miss you so much, and yeah, it's just always so nice to be on the show and to be with you guys, and you know, to connect in this way.
+
+[28:14] If there's ever a live show again, you can you're welcome back anytime, Claire. Oh Dave, I love that we're ending on such a high and special note. I never want to speak to you again. A high note is you're welcome to come back on the show. That's it.
+
+[28:31] And I'm honestly like, I'll come back next week. You can't get a plane over here, but I don't mean uh on this kind of stuff. Yeah, alright. Well, anyway, so uh next time though, you know, come up with something fresh to set me off. I'm sure it'll be easy for you because you have a magic ability.
+
+[28:48] I'm just gonna tee that up right now because I've been doing something very interesting called food combining. Have you ever heard of that? No, go ahead. It's where and stop little stosis. I did a 22-day detox, and part of it is doing food finding.
+
+[29:07] So I did a I did a 22-day like food um detox. So it's what were you detoxing from? All the bad things that we eat. So it's SOS free, salt built. Oh god.
+
+[29:25] Salt oil sugar-free, SOS free. You know your body doesn't function without salt. You know that, right? Actually, you know, you can't get your ion channels going without salt. Yes, there's not an there's not a food in the world that doesn't have some level of sodium in it.
+
+[29:40] That's like a scientific fact. Do you have salt-induced uh high blood pressure? No, but I take iodine supplements. Why? Because you don't use salt?
+
+[29:52] Well, I've started to use salt since. Are you familiar with the with the the three six mafia song in which they eat so many shrimp they get iodine poisoning? And then if you go research that, the number of pounds of shrimp required to get iodine poisoning is like 50 or 60 pounds of shrimp in one sitting. Oh, love that. Yeah.
+
+[30:13] That's a song. It is. And it is the greatest uh it's the greatest blimp shrimp rhyme couplet, I think that has ever been uh sung by any group ever. Wow. We eat so many shrimp.
+
+[30:34] And notice they didn't end on the shrimp. They built the rhyme into the next line. Keep the dopiends higher than the good year blimp. We eat so many shrimp, we get iodine poisoning. And amazing use of the correct plural shrimp and not shrimps.
+
+[30:50] Yeah, well, I think we all know it. I I think we all know that shrimp is not a word. What, shrimps? I I I will like in in by when I'm by myself, I will say shrimps. Yeah, me too.
+
+[31:03] I don't is that even a word though? I mean, I don't know. I won't say it in public. In public, I know it's shrimp, but to myself, I'm like, shrimps. What are you gonna have tonight?
+
+[31:14] Shrimps! Like that. I mean, I like shrimp. You know, there's a British there's I just saw there's a British woman's wear clothing design brand called shrimps. Of course there is.
+
+[31:27] Shrimps.com. Free plug for them. Claire. Oh man, sweaty. I don't want to get into this detox because I'm gonna lose my mind.
+
+[31:35] The whole idea of detoxing. I'm vibrating so fast that I could play the flash on TV right now. You know I hate the idea of detoxing. And I want to call I wanna I I want to write a whole book on retoxing because I think that we all need to retox up, right? Well, I really just want to like key that up for you.
+
+[31:54] It's not like it's not like whatever. I don't I'm not gonna get into it, but let me ask you this. What is your favorite shrimps preparation? Um, like very simple with olive oil, salt, pepper, garlic, done. Raw one minute eat no.
+
+[32:16] Head on, head off. Off everything off. Ooh, okay. For sure. Um, okay, I really do have to run, but I'm definitely going to ew no, that's disgusting.
+
+[32:26] That's like actually expensive. You bit you've been to Spain. You've never had the the awesome head on shrimp where you rip the head off and suck on the head. I do it if it's necessary, but not by because I enjoy it. Oh my god.
+
+[32:41] Stas, what do you think about sucking the head of the shrimp? I'm gonna leave you guys on that note. Dave, I love you so much. It's such an honor to be here for y'all's anniversary. And I'm so excited that Dave and I are, you know, back in cahoots and yeah, excited to continue the journey for another 10.
+
+[33:00] Let's do it. Yeah, yeah. Amen to that. Stab me. All right.
+
+[33:05] Sending you all love and blessings from Talum. Bye, Claire. Bye. Bye, Claire. I I know what you did, Dave, by the way.
+
+[33:17] You you career coached Claire about the honey plan. Oh my goodness. So you've like, you've become the master. See that? See that?
+
+[33:27] I don't even think she realized what was happening that you usurped her. Well, you know. I like to slip around, slip around. I take the I I take the the the back road around there. Anyway, alright.
+
+[33:39] So uh DB Nichols wrote in, uh, Matt McGowan, uh, one of my cooks gave me the buttons of the sandwich line, and I was prepared with a capital P because of all of our screaming about sandwiches. Thanks for the memories. We're not gonna get into the sandwich debate, correct, Stas? Right. Yeah.
+
+[33:54] Somebody else also said that uh Sergio Torn wrote in and said, favorite moment is is me giving a dictionary description of a sandwich and defending it with lawyers' arguments. Okay, listen. Listen, listen. Uh okay, okay, okay. I gotta calm down here.
+
+[34:12] Let's let's just let's look at this in a from a number of different perspectives, okay? Define sandwich, Don. I believe a sandwich involves two things of starch. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Rice?
+
+[34:25] Something in between. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Squish rice? All right, right. Arranged horizontally.
+
+[34:33] I think you can make things with rice crackers. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. That is a no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. You could make a you could make uh, what is it, uh, a mozzarella?
+
+[34:43] Rich crackers with peanut butter. Is that a freaking sandwich? Is matzah with peanut butter in between a sandwich. You know what an Oreo is? A sandwich cookie.
+
+[34:52] Not a sandwich. So sandwich is an adjective as well as a noun. Sandwich is a category of the way you stack. First of all. It could be a bad sandwich.
+
+[35:03] No, no, no. First of all. Sandwich you don't want. Sandwich is sandwich is made. Here's a sandwich is with bread.
+
+[35:11] Bread. Break. Once again, I go I go to the matzah example, then. It is the the bread of suffering. It is the, you know.
+
+[35:20] Are you going to deny the Jews their bread when they're running away from the Egyptians? Two pieces of pizza flipped on themselves. Are they a freaking sandwich? Only if there's something in between, but it's not pizza. Is a calzone a sandwich?
+
+[35:30] No, because it's round. It's calzar. What? It's like it's like a burrito. What?
+
+[35:34] Burrito, definitely not a freaking sandwich. Clearly, much like a wrap. Oh, zone. Oh yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait. Quesadilla not then, because it's it's folded.
+
+[35:41] Okay, here's the question then. What about a freaking if you if you were down to the last slice of bread and you wanted to make a sad grilled cheese, and you folded that last piece of bread in half with cheese and you've made it on a griddle, is that still a grilled cheese? If you believed in God, you would cut the bread in half rather than fold it. Or even if you were an atheist with like uh iota of self-respect. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:04] Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like but I don't know that this folded thing. For instance, a lobster roll is a sandwich. And it's made on a split bun.
+
+[36:13] Definitely not. It's a freaking sandwich. It's a hot dog a sandwich then? Obviously not. I mean, in other words, it is a sandwich, but it gets its own category.
+
+[36:22] Right? It gets its own category. The only the only thing that gets its own category is hamburger. Hamburger gets its own freaking category. What's a paddy milk?
+
+[36:29] What's a patty milk? It's a kind of hamburger. My question is now a matter of horizontal versus vertical and how you actually consume. How would you construct a vertical quesadilla? No, that's the that the hot dog is vertical.
+
+[36:44] Or or long, then it is like split. The split in the bread is vertical, is what you're saying. Exactly. Okay. So whereas a Italian sauce is a little bit more than a few years ago.
+
+[36:52] So when you buy a crappy when you buy a crappy hot dog freaking bun, and you open it too much to toast it because you're one of those people that toast their freaking hot dog buns, right? And it breaks into two and you hand them that crippled hot dog that falls through the thing. Is it now a freaking sandwich? No, you have to hold it sideways. No, because if it's fallen through, it's still vertically stacked.
+
+[37:13] It's not horizontally stacked. But then if you have to like rotate it 90 degrees. Now it's a sandwich? Now you now you have a failure of a hot dog. So the Oxford dictionary, what do we think?
+
+[37:26] An item of food consisting of two pieces of bread. Two pieces. Mm-hmm with meat, cheese, or other filling in between them. Eaten as a light meal. So when you say that's oxygen, it shows what they know.
+
+[37:37] Oxford, by the way. Sandwich not a sandwich. Oxford English Dictionary, world renowned for being crappy when it comes to definitions of food or etymologies related to food or historical timelines related to food. World renowned for being the worst. Where did he go?
+
+[37:51] Where'd she go? To life. To life. The company subway, right? Do they manufacture sandwiches?
+
+[38:01] A sub is a subcategory of sandwich, yes. Even though they're not split all the way in two anymore? Look, in the old days, they would take the knife and then it would go shippy shippy shippy shippy shippy and rip the V out, and then the V would be a pseudo-top to it. Now they just slice it in half because they're too inept to use the V slice anymore. And that's why if you get a subway now versus a subway 15, 20 years ago, it used to be you could eat them without it spraying all over the inside of everything, and now everything sprays everywhere because it's just a little bit more.
+
+[38:30] Because I get lots of toppings. I enjoy mayonnaise and mustard. And so, like, this stuff like they they put it at the end and it freaking extrudes out of the side like the most important thing in sandwich is not the definition, it's the construction, the layering that goes into a proper sandwich. That's true. It's true.
+
+[38:44] The worst thing you can do somebody is to silo their uh burrito. Have you ever done this as a joke? No, what is it? When you give them when you make a burrito for somebody, you make them in silos of all the different ingredients the wrong way. No, but that shows why a burrito is a piece of crap.
+
+[38:57] Because it's got just too much freaking like I want my rice and beans separately. I want a small object, like that I can consume. Burrito's e burrito, first of all, uh like a burrito is an inferior chimichanga. Right? And an inferior enchilada, it's like an inferior, it's an inferior product, no?
+
+[39:15] It's an inferior product, I agree. Yeah. What do you think, Ariel? Inferior to what? Well, like, for instance, like it would be better just if you deep fried it and turn it to a chibichanga.
+
+[39:24] That's true. I would always rather have like two or three tacos than a burrito. Oh, a hundred percent of the case. Yeah. I'd rather have taquitos than a burrito.
+
+[39:31] I would rather have enchiladas, even though it's totally different than a burrito. And I would rat I would rather have a quesadilla, frankly, than a burrito. But is it a sandwich? Quesadilla? Here's another thing.
+
+[39:41] Like, is this is an open face sandwich, even though it's called open-faced sandwich, a sandwich. Not according to the Oxford English idiots. I would say yes, because the normal form is closed, and you have to denote that it has been opened. But it doesn't serve, they don't start it with an extraordinary. But don't a sandwich you have to eat with your hands?
+
+[39:56] Oh. Here's an interesting question. Bill de Blasio would say you can eat anything with a knife and fork, including pizza. Well, like in the wrong about that. In i i in Denmark, where I usually live, we have like open face sandwiches.
+
+[40:08] See, I guess it's more about you. Which are impossible to eat with your hands. Oh, yeah, smorabrot is always, always open. It is the net the normal form of a smorgas is already open. Yeah.
+
+[40:22] So you didn't take a sandwich and open it to make a smorgas. It always. But then if you ask a Danish person what a smorabrot is, they're oh, open face sandwiches. But why would you ask a Danish person that? They're just being polite.
+
+[40:31] They're trying to translate it because they all speak English and they're not worried about the like the the nicety, the fine points of the language, right? You mean right? And we're putting it in, putting in for reference for the people. It's gonna it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna show up. It's gonna show up.
+
+[40:45] Now Justin wrote in and said, uh uh, of the all of the dumb song things that I bust into. By the way, you missed it uh before when before we were live, I was doing some uh Dan Fogarty stuff, right? I was doing my Dan Fogarty imitation, but uh Justin's is my uh favorite is my Bobby Womack's uh 110th Street stuff, which I don't even we couldn't find it. We looked for it and we couldn't find it. Someone, I forget who it was, one of our uh listeners very kindly machine transcripted everything, but oh wow the machine the yeah, yeah, you can search it.
+
+[41:19] Uh uh John, what's the website? Do you know? I think it's just cooking issues. Cooking issues transcript.com. Yeah.
+
+[41:26] But like, for instance, and this is now my favorite thing ever, and I can't believe I didn't introduce her as such. Nastasia is is transcribed by the machine as Miss Tasha the Lopez. Excellent. Miss Tasha the Lopez. I didn't oh god, I didn't look at enough of them to know that.
+
+[41:49] That's great. The Lopez. And then sometimes it's like Miss Tasha the Lopez, the hammer. Like it's like some series of titles, which I love. You think you could ever go with Ms.
+
+[42:00] Tasha the Lopez? No. No. I mean, you will in the show notes for this show until I forget to stop doing it. Has anyone ever called you Tasha?
+
+[42:12] No, no. Oof. What's the worst of all of the manglings of your name? What's the worst? Natasha.
+
+[42:20] I don't like Natasha because it's so lazy and it's as if they don't see the S's. Or they're not even looking at the. It's it's crazy. There's no H that stands out, you know? I don't I don't understand.
+
+[42:34] Lazy. I have I have been in meetings with you where I will say, hey, Nastasia, and then they will say, Natasha, and I'll be like, hey, Nastasia, and then they'll be like, how many times has that happened to us? A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. Yeah. It's like because people are no better, and I can't say their names, or they'll start talking, but the A word that Amazon uses and the S word that Apple uses, like, one of my gripes, they they they kill John's name, they kill Nastasia's name, and I will sit there, I will pronounce it correctly.
+
+[43:07] It will hear what I am saying, right? And then it will assume that it knows better than I do, and it will mispronounce their name back. I hate it. I hate it. Like John, John, I'm like, call you know, call pronounce your name correctly for the people.
+
+[43:23] Jean or John, yeah. And and then in the last name. Right. John Nihul. Now, you say that to see to okay.
+
+[43:34] When you say that to the S person, she's like, you say it just like that, and she's like, calling Gene How. I'm like, no. Jerk? Anyway. Jerk.
+
+[43:46] Um, yeah, she's terrible. She's a terrible person. Um, what's Nastasia? Do you have a favorite dumb thing that I sing over and over? I love that one.
+
+[43:57] I like I like when you do um Ario speed wagon stuff. Uh yeah. Can't think of who else. Alright, what's okay? We what what's wider?
+
+[44:09] Aryo Speedwagon or Boston. No, no. You know what I really like? I really like your association stuff. Oh my god.
+
+[44:15] It's because that's because we were sitting there in in the house where they had recorded. Did they they did Cherish in that house? Where which ones did they do in that house? I think they did all of the like Cherish and Wendy and Which by the way, Wendy, when you were a kid, didn't you think it was Wendy? No.
+
+[44:35] Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. I bet you Claire likes that freaking song. Are you gonna do 110th Street right now? I don't know. I don't know whether I'm feeling it.
+
+[44:42] Yeah, we don't have the clip. You gotta do it. You gotta do a lot. I don't know. I'm feeling it.
+
+[44:45] We'll see. I liked this one so much that I kept it, and here we go. If through Chester, you should junt go to Grano Arso's restaurant. Oh yeah! There's my man uh putting out some props for my man uh Joel Gargano, who by the way did a heavy metal cooking issue thing, which we couldn't find to cue up right now, but he did the cooking issues!
+
+[45:09] Remember that one? Stas did not uh she's not that it's not her kind of music. Not down with the metal. It's not her kind of music. Wait, wait, say what?
+
+[45:21] It just goes out to the demographic of who our audience is when we use that song. So Jackie, so the the current beeny peen teeny penny penny put it like that is, I believe it was Jackie Molecules did a non-copyright number of the colours. Oh, that wasn't me. That was another listener. I don't know who did it, but some generous listener put that together.
+
+[45:45] Right, because the original we were using was the cocktail jazz, uh, you know, great Amos Milburn's Vicious Vicious vodka, oh you dirty rat. Vicious, vicious vodka, oh you dirty rat. He also did such classics as Milk and Water, Milk and Water Now. Um, I don't know if you can tell this, most of his songs about drinking or eating. Which is why cocktail jazz, by the way, for as much as people make fun of that uh whole genre of music as as an art form, for someone who likes songs about food and drinking, like that's all they're about.
+
+[46:18] You know what I mean? Really? Really good at it compared to whom? Um a week ago, or compared to someone who does it professionally? I thought I was good, but I guess I'm not saying you're not good.
+
+[46:35] I'm wondering what you're what you're judging against. In other words, are you saying that you're making rapid progress? Or are you saying you're ready to play out? I'm trying to figure out what you're saying. I'm making rapid progress in my jazz playing.
+
+[46:48] Ah, that's awesome. You should play for us. Where's the where's the no? I don't feel like it anymore. What?
+
+[46:54] No. Come on. What kind of jazz? Nothing. Oh, give me a what the heck is this?
+
+[47:02] I was just trying to get a read for where you were, and now all of a sudden you're gonna get all insulted. Let's move on with the show. What? She's just trying to she's trying to like do that to again to make me look bad. You walked into the trap, dude.
+
+[47:19] I did. I walked into the trap. What is your is what keyboard do you have? Do you have a real piano or a keyboard? I can't remember.
+
+[47:24] Keyboard. What keyboard do you have? Um, I'm upstairs right now. I don't know what it is. But does it have like touch sensitivity?
+
+[47:33] Is it like a nice one? Yes. Yeah. You want to say it's if if it's better than we we got, you know how like uh everyone like for an entry-level keyboard for years would buy the Yamaha because their piano sounds were the best sounds for the money. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
+
+[47:47] Yep. Yeah. So I have one of those, uh, you know, and Booker refuses to play it. So if you want if if you are not happy with your piano sound on your keyboard, you can use and I forget whether it's a full 88 or whether it's like one octave short. I can't remember.
+
+[48:03] I'd have to look at it, but yeah, I like who needs mine. I think mine's a Yamaha, but yeah. Oh yeah. Why why I guess it's because they make pianos for a living that they were like, we're gonna get this piano sound just right. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:15] Yeah. So when you say jazz piano, we're gonna go back to this because I'm not gonna let it go. What era, what style? Well, I have to play a lot of basically I'm just learning jazz chords. So I had to do um.
+
+[48:33] Hello? Wait, what happened? Did we just lost her? Did she run downstairs to get the keyboard? Got so excited talking about jazz chords.
+
+[48:42] I have to do it like this. She just like she turned into a cloud. She like vaporized. That was crazy. Anyway.
+
+[48:50] That's I don't know. I don't understand it. She was like literally in the middle of talking about the chords. I remember Nastasia. Well, like that was a cooking issue.
+
+[48:59] That was it. But she's just she she vaporized. She's she turned to a vapor. The deep state jazz lobby didn't want the secrets revealed. And uh they're like, they're like, no one talks about the fake book.
+
+[49:15] And that was it. Damn, I love the idea of Saz playing jazz piano, the rocks. Well, uh, so the the like that's the question. I'm wondering whether she's like getting interested because it's kind of a sad time to get interested in playing jazz because how are you gonna be with somebody else? Are people getting online?
+
+[49:30] Is the latency low enough that people can get online and play jazz with each other? Oh yeah, definitely not, right? Can it be? No, I don't know. I don't think so.
+
+[49:39] But you know, sitting around the house playing some nice seven, nine chords, so that's cool. Spices things up. It also is something to look forward to. You'd be like, I'm gonna get good enough at this during quarantine that I could go sit in with some people once I'm allowed to do that again. That's how I learned bass, by the way.
+
+[49:54] I was uh I was at home uh in the summertime. Oh, she's back. My computer went on the Wi-Fi network that isn't my Wi-Fi network, and then it's so we were saying, like, so is like uh I'm assuming that what's what is interesting because Nastasia, I'm gonna tell you a secret about Nastasia, that Nastasia loves reading musicians' uh biographies. Yeah. So is it that you love the idea that like they're all improvising together at the same time?
+
+[50:25] Why I like playing jazz? No, you know why? Because I realized so I learned piano when I was little, but I never learned chords and chord progression and stuff. And I realize that when I play music, I do not think about anything else. I am so focused on it that I don't my mind just stops thinking, and I really like that feeling.
+
+[50:47] Oh yeah. That's why I like playing music. But I but it only works for me when I'm playing live. Yeah, it works for me whenever I play. It also works for me when I'm giving talks.
+
+[50:57] But my brain is when I'm giving a talk, my brain is basically off, and I'm a I'm a complete stream of consciousness. I don't know if I don't know if that's clear. You don't say. All right. Uh Jenny Calamus wrote in and said, uh, favorite thing is when I go into a tangent and it leads to another tangent.
+
+[51:17] Well, you're welcome. Wow, what an enabler. What an enabler. I know. The vast majority of cooking issues duration.
+
+[51:25] Well, it's just tangent after tangent. Tangents on tangents, yeah. Tangents on top of tangents inside of another tangent. Well, it's you know, whatever. Um we gotta figure out.
+
+[51:38] Apparently, Nastasia, uh, James Hine wrote and said that we were gonna write a Searsol cookbook. Oh, Piper was supposed to do that. Here's what happened. He quit. That's that.
+
+[51:50] And they're endeth the cookbook. Look, I I I'm supposed to write a cookbook for uh Norton uh Norton and Norton about the miracle of moisture management, and I am indeed working on it, but like the odds that I write a Sears all cookbook um on a scale of like of like laughably low to zero, I would say like what do you think, Stas? Zero? Yeah, zero. You're not writing that.
+
+[52:15] You're not even gonna write your fing C V cookbook. Yeah, laughable. Oh, cursing. I am writing it, and it's not gonna be just about C Vide. I've decided it's not just gonna be about C Vede.
+
+[52:25] It's about the miracle of moisture management. Do you hear nothing? So you're going so it'll be out in like 10 years. Why are you so mean to me all the time? John, what do you think?
+
+[52:34] Wanna play some baths? Yeah, laughably less. I don't think we're gonna happen. Are we talking about my my book or the Sears All book? Uh your book.
+
+[52:43] Yeah, now we're taking bets on the timeline for release on moisture management. Yeah, miracle of moisture management. I don't know. I'll say two more years. Okay.
+
+[52:55] Let me just tell you. Let me just tell you, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me tell you how this works. For those of you that have never written a book before, and maybe it's changed since the COVID. I don't know.
+
+[53:03] You write the book. After you write the book, you then do the uh you then do the uh the photos for the book. Some people shoot at the same time, whatever. Once that's done, once you hand it in, it's about a year before it comes out. Now, you might not believe this, but because you're used to like something happening in the news, and then like there's a book about it the next week.
+
+[53:28] That is a whole different style of publishing than people do for cookbooks, right? So like those like you know, straight to paperback or like mass market fast things. Like they, you know, they hire a reporter who you know wakes up, starts typing, you know, the stuff comes out of their word processor basically, edited. It takes you know, minimal stuff, minimal design work, shoved into a book, printed instantly, and sent out so they can do a book in a couple of weeks. But real real, like regular books, like from the minute I hand it in, it is a year before it comes out.
+
+[54:04] So your bets are when I hand it in or when it when it is actually on the presses and people can get busy not buying it. My bet is ten years, people can buy it. You're so mean. So mean. I'll probably say like three years to write it, a year to get the photographs done, because I know how long it's taking you to Photoshop those pictures for Amazon.
+
+[54:26] No, people, I stopped doing that. Here's the thing. If just so she's know, if it doesn't happen, it means I'm not doing it. I'll I showed, okay. So here's the thing.
+
+[54:37] We sent out, so we make some products. The Searsol, is it blessedly back in stock yet, or no, Stas? No. Okay. Soon though, right?
+
+[54:45] Any day now? No, hopefully. Anyway. The spinzall is out of stock. We you can no longer purchase a culinary centrifuge.
+
+[54:54] And we've been the factory, is this long sob story? They they changed factory buildings. The company did literally, there are giant metal molds that are used for them to inject the plastic in for our parts that we paid unconscionable amount of money for, right, Stas? Yes. Like for those of you that have built things in the past, like professionals, like we spent like 10 times as much as we were supposed to on tooling.
+
+[55:20] I have I have caused like uh people who are experienced in this to do spit takes when they hear how much we paid for the tooling. Laughably, it's because at the time our agent was a company that was taking a much bigger cut. They were buying it from someone who's taking a much bigger cut. So by the time it got to us, we were paying like three times normal normal price. So we pay this unconscionable amount of money for these giant hunks of metal that are used to inject the parts to make the uh spinzall, and they straight up lost them.
+
+[55:51] You know what I mean? Yeah, they straight up lost them. They couldn't find them. They're like, hey, hey, we don't know where they are. We'll find them someday, but the good news is you're not a priority.
+
+[56:04] Stas, is that basically how it went? Yeah. So they have found them. And here's another thing. Here's another thing you might not know.
+
+[56:12] In every factory, for everything like this, there is straight up, this is real, a set of binders with the pieces of paper in it that have all of the things that they have to do to make a product. This screw is this, it's made out of this, this is this, but all of the testing, all of that. They also lost the notebook. But I think they found the notebook, right, Stas? Right.
+
+[56:37] But we don't yet have uh um uh what's it called? Uh an ETA on when they can make a batch because we're trying to negotiate with them to make a couple of changes. Don't worry, still backward compatible people, but um so we don't have any real word on when that's gonna come back. So we did some some product shots for that for the Sears all uh and for the this you know, the cocktail cube, the the little texturizer cube. But the thing is is that that was kind of an added bonus picture.
+
+[57:05] We didn't know that people were gonna, you know, that we were gonna get that shot. They and so they they put branded liquor bottles in the picture and then defocused it a little bit, thinking that was enough. But any liquor person would look at the label and be like, oh, that's that. You know what I mean? And it's not cool to have other people's products in your product shot.
+
+[57:28] So then I was like, well, I could go into Photoshop and just you know, erase the label, but then it looks weird, right? And so I looked at it, I'm like, that looks weird. I don't know what to do. And so every literally every day, Nastasia has John call me and this is true, every day. Well, no, she doesn't tell me to do.
+
+[57:51] I mean, yeah, no, I do that to work. It's part of your work. I'm reminding you to do it. Yeah, yeah. But until I figure out how to make it not look weird, I'm just not gonna do it.
+
+[58:01] Okay. But like, I appreciate the the writing. No problem. Uh so Scott wrote in and said that uh his favorite thing was uh when I argued that the cumulative cost of a family cereal consumption over time is the same whether everyone shares or each person gets their own box. Wow, I don't even remember that, but that is true.
+
+[58:26] Uh at this point I knew his genius and have listened ever since. Well, I appreciate it. Uh so yeah. Oh, and he adds Alaska did not erase the scars from the ridicule I faced from fishing for prizes in family cereal boxes over the years. Now, you guys who are who are left with us, what are your what are your policies on diving for the prize?
+
+[58:50] As a kid, I was definitely pro. I would try and get in there before my siblings could. Yeah, of course. As a kid. Yeah, it's a no-brainer.
+
+[58:59] I was an only child, so for me, like I was gonna get that dang prize anyway. We weren't allowed, we weren't allowed to do that. We had a wait to see which either my brother and I which one it would fall out in on its own. Nastasia, I've known you a long time. You're telling me that you didn't set yourself up for success.
+
+[59:17] No, I didn't. I was a really good child. Hmm. So when did you change? With you, I guess.
+
+[59:26] I say the same thing about you. You're saying that like we bring out the worst in each in each other? I guess. Awesome. Uh I used to when I when your problem when you're a kid is you do the fist, you fist the cereal, and you go in, and somehow the box never looks flat enough again.
+
+[59:43] And then how good I became very good, even though I was an only child, I'm also I don't know if you know this, I'm impatient. Yeah, yeah. And so like I would sit there and take the box and go up on the sides of it and make it kind of flat again. You know what I'm talking about? Yes, I can imagine.
+
+[1:00:05] Uh yeah. You really wanted those. Were those toys that good? They were that good, huh? Yeah.
+
+[1:00:09] Alright. No, they were always disappointing. But the the the wish for them. All right. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:16] What are your favorite cereal toys that you've ever received? I actually don't recall any of the specifics of cereal toys. Yeah. Low quality individual there, Matt. Nastasi, what do you got?
+
+[1:00:30] Silly putty. You got silly putty in cereal? Yeah. Yeah, what? How?
+
+[1:00:35] That's pretty awesome. Little, little, little, a little one, you know. That's amazing. Oh, and speaking of speaking of someone else's favorite, here's Booker. He can't hear you, but here's Booker on our 10th anniversary show.
+
+[1:00:44] Booker, say hello. Hi. Hi, Walker. Booker, by the way, is like eight feet taller than I am now. Booker is like six foot like one or something crazy.
+
+[1:00:53] And this is exclusively off of eating sushi and candy. Like sushi and candy is all the kid eats, and yet he's still like way taller than I am. What a life. Right? Sushi and candy.
+
+[1:01:06] Umly putty. That is so badass. Huh. What about you, Jack? What do you got?
+
+[1:01:13] I feel like some kind of action figure, usually, right? That was all I can really remember. Some like no action figure though, right? It's just a piece of cardboard with like a rivet in it. Or like a bootloading parts for a lot of things.
+
+[1:01:23] Like a boot like a bootleg troll or something, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The worst was that where when they said it was a prize inside, but it was something that you had to then actually cut the box apart and like put together with some sort of like joker thing that was inside the box. Worst. Worst.
+
+[1:01:39] What about you, John? What do you got? What do you got for cereal prizes? I don't remember anything good other than just like those crappy wash-off tattoos. Oh, those suck.
+
+[1:01:47] Let me let me let me. I thought you were gonna pull up me. I was in Paris. We didn't have those cereal prizes. No, they the French had cereal prizes too.
+
+[1:01:55] Like what? Like a baguette inside of your cereal box? I don't know. I don't remember. I remember one year we got a bag of dog food and there was a pocket knife in there.
+
+[1:02:04] Oh yeah, dude. Yeah. Oh man. Let's move to France where you get a pocket knife in every bag of dog food. That's sick.
+
+[1:02:14] I love that. Yeah. I love that. Um see for me, there was a there was a box of Captain Crunch once, and I can remember it because uh where we used to store this. This is in uh in New Jersey when I used to live in New Jersey.
+
+[1:02:27] We had the the the cabinet where the cereal boxes were, which is like right below where the giant coffee grinder was that I pulled onto my head when I was a kid and split my head open and had to go get stitches. And then next to the cereal is where we kept the jar of tang, which I don't think we ever made liquid tang. I would just spoon that stuff. I was one of those spoon tang kids, you know what I'm saying? Where you just like sit there and like like pound Tang with a spoon.
+
+[1:02:51] Any of you ever had Tang? Yeah. Yeah, tank. Anyway, Captain Crunch had in it a submarine, plastic submarine that you fill with baking soda, and it would like putter around with the baking soda somehow. It would like make some fizz.
+
+[1:03:10] I don't remember exactly how it worked, but it was supposed to like travel around in the bottom of a glass. And although it didn't work and it sucked, and I threw it away instantly, the idea that I would have this miniature submarine, this blue plastic submarine from the Captain Crunch box was, you know, I still remember the anticipation was better than the disappointment of it of it being terrible. I'm Ethan Frisch, co-host of Why Food and co-founder of Burlap and Barrel, a public benefit corporation working directly with smallholder spice farmers around the world to source unique, beautiful spices for professional chefs and home cooks. We set our partner farmers up to export their own crops for the first time. And they get access to a whole new market here in the U.S.
+
+[1:03:52] And we get access to spices that other companies can't source. We're honored to work with restaurants including Eleven Madison Park, Blue Hill, and Chapanese, as well as thousands of home cooks across the country. Visit us at burlap and barrel.com. Ooh. John Secord's favorite moment, Nastasia.
+
+[1:04:10] And this is one that uh, you know, our our friend uh Steven from La Pinultima was there for in the real life. Hands down, my favorite story was the death of wine Santa at the botanical gardens. Man. That was good. Do you want to cue that?
+
+[1:04:24] Do you want to cue that at this uh cue it when it gets going at 6 15? It's at the Heritage Radio thing. We're filling it with red wine. This is at the gala, which was a fun event, right? Yes.
+
+[1:04:35] Yes. So she fills it with red wine. Uh, we get it going. Uh, we have she makes me go out to a hardware store. Hours I have to think about this crap and like get a screw to screw the bowl into Santa's chest, into Santa's sternum, so that the bowl won't flip around.
+
+[1:04:50] Yeah. And uh one of the event organizers, I don't even remember who, uh, I don't know whether they were on the Brooklyn Botanical Garden side or on our side. Anyway, I I'm walking behind her because I have to get napkins to continuously wipe up the dripping red wine all over the floor. And the giant splash of red wine, which thank God did not get on the felt plant art that was all over the wall. It almost did, and I spent Tuesday cleaning wine off the wall.
+
+[1:05:16] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, anyways. It was it was not bad. So this lady is walking, I'm walking behind her, and she goes, That's horrifying.
+
+[1:05:26] I want it 86. And then the guy from the botanical card was like, I don't know if we can you know the guy I'm talking about. I don't know if we could 86 it. They brought it, it's from the people. Anyway, so she's like, uh so they pull wine Santa, we drain the wine out, and they say you can't bring wine Santa back out until 9 p.m.
+
+[1:05:47] Okay. So at 8 30, Nastasia's like, it's nine somewhere. And she goes, and first of all, there are pictures of this wine Santa, which looks all beat up, like all like silicone glue and spray paint, nightmare. And it's turned against the wall like it's being punished in elementary school. She goes, she there's pictures.
+
+[1:06:06] So she goes and she pulls it out this time, Jack Shram from you know, uh uh existing conditions. He's like, Let's fill it with vodka instead. Thank God for Jack Shram. Well, I mean, horrifying in a different way, a warm vodka spout is hard gross. Yes, but it was with the remains of the Malbec that you had had it in earlier.
+
+[1:06:30] It's hard nasty all the way around. So they turn it on, it's, I don't know, some form of cool in the gang or something they're playing. Santa's dancing. All of a sudden, you see Santa's like, oh, oh, whoa. So Santa starts, Santa all of a sudden's like, I can't do this anymore.
+
+[1:06:48] Blah! And Santa just starts tipping forward. So Steven Hoppy from uh uh La Penultima, who came to the event, he's standing next to Santa. He's like, I'm gonna save this. Only Santa had already crossed like the 30 to 40 degree tilt.
+
+[1:07:05] So he iron palms Santa in the chest. As he iron palms Santa in the chest, Santa's head flies right off. Santa's head just goes tumbling through the air, flying across the hallway, and then and then like just goes around Steve's hand and just hits the ground and then keeps on dancing in a pile of his own vomit and and vodka, like at least it was vodka. And like you can't see on the radio because it's not a visual medium, but just imagine your hands just slowly pumping back and forth while your face, well, not even face down, doesn't have a face anymore, head fell off. Like chest down, dying in your own pool of vodka blood and vomit.
+
+[1:07:45] And that was the wine set. So then the next day Nastasia's like, So you're gonna help me build that again? I was like, what? What? Or 9.2 anyway, so like whatever.
+
+[1:07:56] So I'm like, you know what? So no, she's this is how Nastasia gets you. This is how terrible Nastasia is. I have all of the things she doesn't talk like that. She's right here, you know what she talks like.
+
+[1:08:07] She's like, I have all of the things we need to build, yeah, pasta flyer. I'm like, you have nothing, that pasta flyer with which to build this. She plans on building it out as we're getting. She's like, I have a hand auger and like uh and like a screwdriver. I'm like, listen.
+
+[1:08:22] It's all like, I'm like, and then she's gonna take Jack Tram, the head bartender from existing conditions, and waste his free time. What? He did not want to do it you force people in, and then you say they want to do it. Don't anyone say I wanted to do this. I never want to hear that I wanted to do this.
+
+[1:08:38] So I'm like looking at her and at Jack, and I'm like, you're both idiots. Neither of you, A, have the skills to do this, neither do you have the tools. So we went to New Lab with a shop that Booker and Dax, you know, has a is a member of, and we had to build it, but then we ran out of materials. Oh god. So we stole some well, he didn't steal.
+
+[1:08:58] Oh god. Unlabeled wood. Uh-huh. Is community property. But this guy had just brought it in there.
+
+[1:09:07] He was still there, but he was working on something else. So I was like, yeah, literally, how long did it take me to turn that thing into pedestals? Five minutes. I took a four by eight sheet and I was like, crap on a beam, beep. Stable gun.
+
+[1:09:22] And like with like it's all there, you know what I mean? And like the guy was like, he literally turns around and goes, hey, nice pedestals. Where's my wood? Oh no. So we had to buy him wood.
+
+[1:09:33] And now Anastasia wants me to make more because someone rented. Here's what she says. Dave, this is gonna be big money. I'm like, first of all. For one month a year.
+
+[1:09:42] No. I was like, oh, really? You've made three this year. It's cost like it's cost eight years off my life in terms of the anger scale, plus like my actual time, money, her time that she could have been spending, I don't know, selling freaking Sears all's and centrifuges, stuff like this, getting more of them made. Instead, we're doing this.
+
+[1:10:00] I was like, oh, how much grand total did you make this year? Well, nothing this year. This is like the fourth year of just, you know, building up interest. Next year is when the real money comes. This year's been the year of the Instagram for Wine Santa.
+
+[1:10:13] Yeah, yeah. Wine Santa. Death of Yan Santa. Strong. Uh Elysio wrote in and favorite was uh our discussions, which Nastasia will never let me forget this freaking lunch at the Citrus Farm.
+
+[1:10:27] Right. But the useful advice I gave there was the pretend you're dead advice. So, you know, which I think is good advice. So for those of you that aren't gonna go listen to it because we don't have that cued up. The idea is is that when you're in situations where you wish that you weren't there and there's nothing you can do about it, instead of like constantly thinking, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, just I'm on the radio books.
+
+[1:10:56] I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored. Just pretend you're dead, and then it's fine. You're just like, oh, I'm dead for like the next half hour, I'm dead. For Nastasia, the half an hour lunch that we had to wait was like eight years of of uh of of mental stress for her, right? Two and a half hours, but whatever.
+
+[1:11:13] It was not two and a half hours. First of all, there's no videotape of this, and no one's gonna know. We we'll get Harold McGee on soon. And we will ask him how long that lunch was. Have we ever discussed this lunch with Harold McGee?
+
+[1:11:29] I feel that we should bring this one up again with Harold McGee live on the radio. Speaking of, not Harold McGee, but in two two weeks, John, we're gonna have Steven Jones from the Bread Lab on, and we're gonna go nitty nitty nitty nitty gritty on uh different wheats and and whatnot. Um Patrick Chicone wrote in and said, long time listener, can you find Dave's rant against raps? Rant against raps. It's too long to put in, but I think you're gonna add that one later.
+
+[1:11:57] Am I right, Matt? I hate raps. A man I hate raps. For as much as I hate like uh spring roll, as much as I love tortillas of almost any variety, although I do prefer corn for most applications, man, raps suck. They really are bad.
+
+[1:12:10] Everyone needs to walk around and then every once in a while like think about the fact that raps are so popular here in the US and they're really just they're just viciously bad. They're horribly, horribly bad. I mean, you if you think about this, uh you're taking an undercooked flour tortilla, which if you were going to do any reasonable kind of cooking you would reheat on a griddle to kind of make it taste more cooked, right? And then serve it right away in some sort of cooked thing. And instead you're wrapping it with a bunch of other dense wet crap, right?
+
+[1:12:48] And then wrapping it in such a way almost invariably that you have too much uh kind of flowery mess on one section and not enough in another and serving to someone as though there's something they should eat. Have we discussed this before Nastasha on the air? I think so have we? Well it kind of bears repeating Peter, we've never discussed it before what do you think? Am I am I off base here with my with my rap hatred?
+
+[1:13:10] No, my my soul just crumbled away a little bit just imagining biting into one of those cold mealy crumbly tortilla things like it's no so somewhere at some point right and I can't remember when the rap thing happened but I remember before there were raps, right? So like you know when I was a little boy, we didn't get raps. That didn't happen, right? That was not that was not on the race. So some point between the late 70s and the mid 90s, some person who hates food, some person who absolutely detests all that is good in life, came up with this kind of horrible rancid idea and has perpetrated it on hundreds of millions of us.
+
+[1:13:55] Because we've all been served one of these nonsense wraps before. And I think, you know, right after you back the Mofad Kickstarter, go tell a friend not to buy wraps. You know what I'm saying? I will say this. You know, a lot of times, uh so back when I was working as an attorney, you know, we'd have these business meetings, right?
+
+[1:14:14] And there'd be catered food. And I'll be honest, a lot of times I opted for the wrap over the sandwich simply because I didn't want to make a mess and it was just easier to eat. I still didn't like it. I still prefer a sandwich. I don't necessarily think that this was an uh a crime against humanity as you're suggesting, but you know.
+
+[1:14:33] It's there is something to be said about how it keeps your hands clean. All right. Well, okay, so let's let's go on this for a second. That's true. However, here's the here's the thing.
+
+[1:14:44] Most a poorly made sandwich, right, is still better than a well-made wrap, right? And but the problem is is that there it's very hard to actually construct a sandwich for best taste and also best eatability. You know what I mean? So most people they'll overstuff the hell out of their sandwich, and then it tastes good because the fillings almost always taste good, but it's completely uneatable in a kind of a friendly or not friendly, but the public or business environment because the stuff's gonna be falling all over your plate all the time. The flip side is people that manufacture sandwiches for either maximum eatability or their maximum crazy hairbrained idea of health, right?
+
+[1:15:22] Like those guys, when they when they make the sandwich, it's like horribly dry. And all like a dry sandwich makes me almost as sad, maybe in some situations more sad because it could be so much better with the simple addition of the condiment like mayonnaise or oil as a wrap. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. How sad is a dry sandwich?
+
+[1:15:43] How sad are these two things? A dry sandwich or an undersalted sandwich where they like someone made the chicken salad and they didn't put enough salt in the chicken salad, and it's also a little too dry, and they pack it on that like horribly bad, badly made wheat bread that they think is good for you, but it's not because it tastes bad. And there's like the bread the bread to fill in combo is just way off. I mean, I I think the solution really for this is to have tea sandwiches at all business meetings. I love tea sandwiches.
+
+[1:16:12] That's a good business meeting compromise. Yeah. But I think the other issue with bad sandwiches, you know, there's so much bad like so much of the kind of things that are put out for people to eat are horrible. I mean, I don't know what got me into this mood, but here's another one for you. When you wrap a breadstick with uh with ham, right, you gotta realize that uh, especially the thin breadsticks, like their ability to stay crisp is extremely minimal because any amount of water at all uh migrates out of that ham into that breadstick, and now you have like a mealy gooey breadstick, and then you have to try and extricate this ham from around it.
+
+[1:16:49] And it and it's just it's another problem. People need to think about moisture migration and putting different products together. Uh they're gonna sit around for a long time when they're worrying about catering things like business lunches. What are your thoughts on the bread sticks and ham? Just moisture migration uh ignorance.
+
+[1:17:09] Yeah. I agree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've always got a lot of people. I mean, I don't think I would describe it that way myself.
+
+[1:17:19] I mean, I I agree with you in spirit, you know. I'm I'm right there with you. Just perhaps the uh the uh magnitude is uh you're further out there than me. Well, I also noticed that uh what you're telling me is that at the business meeting, you're too much of a sissy to take the sandwich that you like and instead taking the rep. Oh, the hate's being directed this way now.
+
+[1:17:42] Yeah, yes, yes. Well, you know, if you ever come work, anyone who's listening, if you ever come work with us, you gotta realize there's gonna be a certain amount of hate down getting thrown around at all times. We just can't we can't help a little bit of the friendly hate down uh here uh at either at MoFad uh or booked into accident cooking issues. And Patrick, you'll be glad to know I still hate raps, they're still gross. Now, a rap, the the the main difference between a wrap and a good like flour tortilla thing is that a good flour tortilla thing doesn't have a fundamentally uncooked, gummy sack of crap being the thing that contains it.
+
+[1:18:21] That's the main difference, but we will go into it. Uh Angela Gabach wrote in with, you know, oh, by the way, go buy her book. Uh go buy her go buy her book. Um oh my god, the title just went out of my head from Goldenrod Pastries. Remember the title of the book, Stas?
+
+[1:18:34] The title of the book just went out of my head. Um I'm such a jerk. We'll add it in post. Uh anyway, uh, she also just bought a copy of Nastasia won't let me talk about it, but Pie March is on my favorite old cookbook, probably of the last three years. Um, I have a lot of favorite memories of cooking issues because it reminds me of great times working with the crew and Dave.
+
+[1:18:53] Uh when our friend Eng Su died, Dave made sure to go on air and talk about the mental health strains in our industry. Uh Nick uh Nick Mindy and I, that was the old that's the pre-Nastasia actually um FCI crew. I I don't uh yeah met in New York City a few weeks later to pay our respects to Eng Sue together and join Dave on the show. We had a chance to talk about uh a great man and his contributions to food in Singapore and beyond. And while I love cooking issues for the rants and laughs, I always always appreciate that Dave and the crew never steer away from tacking tackling uncomfortable, sometimes sad topics.
+
+[1:19:27] We are we are often uncomfortable, am I right, Stas? Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh perfectly golden, by the way. Perfectly golden.
+
+[1:19:34] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfectly golden. And uh, and and she has these tote bags that say buns buns buns that Nastasia uh that uh Jen carries around with her uh to like picnics and whatnot. Mike Memran wrote in and said, Hey all, ten years, wow. Dave's uh favorite is Dave, my refusal to believe that Nastasia actually prefers crappy coffee from the cars.
+
+[1:19:54] Oh, I I believe it. I just you're right, I don't believe it. Uh the time that you guys had all that quasi-illle game meet, uh any time uh that we would bring Booker on the uh show, uh, and that time that I went off on a tangent, dot dot dot. All right. Thanks us for trekking out to Bushwick.
+
+[1:20:12] So, Nastasia, I know you didn't like trekking out to Bushwick, but what's worse? Doing it this way or the trek out to Bushwick? You didn't like doing it either. I don't like going anywhere. Uh you specifically this is better.
+
+[1:20:25] Did you hate no come on? It's not nearly as much fun to not be all in the same room. You actually like it better, you become that much of a hermit. I thought my stepfather was the only person who's actually enjoying the full enforced solitude of COVID. No, I'm saying I enjoy doing the show like this.
+
+[1:20:44] I don't enjoy the solitude in all the other parts of my life. So you would like to see everyone but us. Um I just don't like going to Bushwick. You took that the worst way, and you know it. Yeah, I did.
+
+[1:20:58] I did. I did. I miss all the nicknames Stas used to give Roberta's employees. I know. Oh god.
+
+[1:21:03] Oh my god. And you guys don't even know the half of it, people. Yeah, and like a lot of off-air stuff. Yeah, so so Jack, what are your favorite? What are your favorite uh nicknames that you remember?
+
+[1:21:14] I'm trying to think of ones that were said on the show. I think Santa's little helper was Well, what'd she call him off the air? You came up with that, Dave. I did not. You think that I did.
+
+[1:21:26] That was yours. I'm getting off the air now, if you can't admit that. That is ridiculous. You always do this. You always do this where I'm like, you came up with Harvard and Stone being called the drug front.
+
+[1:21:35] You're like, no, I didn't. And I'm like, yeah, you did. And then you blame it on me. And the same thing for this. Like I would never come up.
+
+[1:21:41] I didn't even know what a Hitler youth was. What? You never learned about the Hitler youth? We call well, so basically, I what must have happened is some of these things, I have to be honest, are combinations of Nastasia and myself just bing bing binging off each other, and then we end up somewhere. So to give the credit to any one of us doesn't really make sense because it's more just this is the kind of conversation where this person is dressed like an elf.
+
+[1:22:07] I think that's fair. Stas probably called him an elf. Yeah. Oh, for sure, Stas called him Santa's little helper. Yeah.
+
+[1:22:13] And I was like, yeah, like Santa's little helper from uh from a Hitler youth. And then we were like, because he kind of had this kind of like Hitler youth look about him. And it did. You know. Yeah, he did.
+
+[1:22:23] And so then I I don't know who actually said the word Hitler's little helper, but it ended up at that. We couldn't use it on air. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh you still see him, uh Matt.
+
+[1:22:36] Well, I mean, I I'm never there. No, I don't I don't even know. I don't know who he left before I did, probably. Yeah. Who came up with Indy Jesus?
+
+[1:22:45] Yeah, Indy Jesus. Somebody just wrote in on the chat for Indy Jesus. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Who Jack actually knew him personally, but Nastasi, wasn't that you, Indy Jesus?
+
+[1:22:55] That sounds like you. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:23:00] That one stuck. He's a very nice guy, too. Well, as Jesus. As Jesus. You know, and he's not, he's not big label Jesus, he's indie.
+
+[1:23:10] That's right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:23:12] No one likes big label Jesus. No. God. Always ripping people off, making you do music just to suit the masses and to sell a couple of records. You need indie Jesus.
+
+[1:23:22] That's right. Yeah. What other nicknames did we have? Those are the two that pop in my mind that are like actual nicknames. Nastasia would make choice comments about individual servers, but like those are the ones that she would look out for.
+
+[1:23:35] You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any other ones you remember, Stas particularly? No, I can't remember right now.
+
+[1:23:46] My favorite Roberta's memory is the like right when we started, right? So right when we start, Nastasi and I'm like, I don't know, man. Because when Patrick asked us to do the radio show, so uh the again the the birth of this was uh you know, my mentor Michael Batterberry had died, and uh Patrick was doing a Patrick Martin's, you know, fearless leader was doing a um like a memorial show, and you know, he knew that he had been kind of my mentor, asked me on, and I did something. At the time, there were only like four shows on Heritage Radio Network. So Patrick was like, do a show, mean you want to do a show.
+
+[1:24:23] And like there was no like you didn't have to write out what you want to do, nothing. And I was like, you know what, Patrick? It's like, you know, you guys, you're not uh you're not really our scene. Like I do technology and you're more like you know, crunchy crunch and the get crunches. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:24:37] Like you're more like, you know, you know, not really like you kinda you hate everything that I do for a living, so I don't know that you kind of want me to have uh a show on your network. And he was like, it's fine, just like uh I wish we had Peter on to uh do his path. Peter Kim. Yeah, he doesn't favorite punchy bag. Peter Kim does the world's greatest Patrick Martin's imitation.
+
+[1:24:57] Anyway, I want that next time. So that's how we started. Uh that's how we started doing the show. So what happened was is Nastasi and you're like, all right, we're gonna show up, we're gonna do this show every week. Uh what do we get?
+
+[1:25:12] Are you gonna do the show during close to lunchtime? Yeah, all right, you get a pizza. Right, Sas? I think all the hosts got pizzas. I don't think so because most people weren't recording during service time.
+
+[1:25:24] Um there was a time where the pizzas were flowing. Yeah. And we just kept on the pizza parade. Yeah, you uh you got you got good pizza treatment. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:25:35] Well, it's good to know. But Nastasi and I were not allowed to sit with the real people. Oh now listen, if you can imagine that Nastasia and I aren't cool enough to sit with the Bushwick crowd. Alright? So like we were forced, rain, shine.
+
+[1:25:57] This is before the tent outdoors was considered a cool zone, right? Nastasi and I would hang out in the tent. And like I think the second episode we ever did, Stas, remember this? Yeah. Cats and dogs.
+
+[1:26:09] Raining, raining. Yeah, man. Cats and dogs. And you know, and Nastasi and I are both freaking drowned rats. We made it from Manhattan over to uh and we were still at the French culinary at the time.
+
+[1:26:22] So, like, you know, we made it from Manhattan over there. We went together back when we were working at the French Culinary Institute. And we're in the thing. We get out. They're like, go wait in the tent.
+
+[1:26:34] Now, at the time there was no covered way to get from the restaurant to the tent. It was all outdoors. So Nastasi was sitting there under a tent, you know, in that in that kind of New York raining dark, if you've ever been in New York in a rainstorm like that. And you hear this. Hello, hey.
+
+[1:26:54] What? What? Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey! Come get your pizza, it's ready.
+
+[1:27:01] We're like, what the f he's like, what am I? Gonna bring it out to you? What am I? A waiter? We're like, okay, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:27:08] Remember that, Stas? And that's when we knew the level of treatment we were gonna get at the Heritage Radio Network. Am I right? Right. Right, right, right.
+
+[1:27:18] Nastasi and I and like, I think that was the genesis of us making fun. And I love the Robertus crew, but that was the genesis of us making fun of that crew was when we got called over to pick up our pizza, because God forbid they bring it to us in the in the in the little, like, you know, in the little punishment room that they made us sit in to eat it. Yeah. Uh wait, I have one. I just listened to this the other day.
+
+[1:27:46] Live from the Bass Pro Shop? Why were you guys there? Why did that be a good one? Oh my god. Man, that was awesome.
+
+[1:27:52] That was so much fun. That was Nastasia's idea. Yeah. You want to talk about Stas? We just like the Bass Pro Shop and we decided.
+
+[1:28:01] You loved it. You got me onto it. You turned me on to it. Okay. And um, yeah.
+
+[1:28:06] Because you went to which one? You went to the one uh the one outside of uh well no, no, no, that's where we went. Oh no, we went to I was at the one in uh outside of the Patriots Stadium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's that?
+
+[1:28:18] Soldier Field? What's that called? I forget the name of it. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, Sheila went to this Bass Pro shop, and she's like, I love it, and you will love it even more.
+
+[1:28:27] And somehow, how did you convince the Bass Pro Shop that we were somehow a related industry? Yeah, I have no idea. Was it even sanctioned? I feel like you guys talk about the cowboy grill or something like that. You guys talked about one of the properties.
+
+[1:28:40] I mean, we probably did, but we were like Was it sanctioned though? I feel like we were just in the phone. No, it was in the parking lot where it was. Did you have extra access to it or something? Do you remember the lady with the perm who came out and like gave us that like 10 minute tour?
+
+[1:28:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then set us up in the parking lot. In the parking lot. And like, it was in the parking lot, and there were these people coming by. They didn't know why we were talking to them.
+
+[1:29:01] And we were and they're like, this is in Bridgeport, Connecticut, right? You're calling it Fairfield. It's in Bridgeport, right? And so the funny thing about it is is that Connecticut is a big hunting state, but like that particular area of Connecticut, because it's coastal and it's um, you know, it's urban. It's not a but like there's a lot of people who want, and it's right, but it's right on the water.
+
+[1:29:20] So there's a lot of people who kind of hadn't been served with a place where they could get kind of outdoor gear. So it's a really interesting mix of people who were sick of going to the Cabellas in Central Connecticut who came down for the opening, people from on the coast, like local people from Bridgeport. And we were just, and of course, absolutely zero people had any idea why we were there. And we were just accosting random people, asking them questions about cooking. Remember that?
+
+[1:29:45] Yeah. It was real weird. Or there was somebody who had like a hot tip about a restaurateur who was gonna open a place. Do you remember this? They're like, they were trying to, you there was the cooking issue scoop of like this like new New York restaurant tour that was gonna open a place in Connecticut, and this lady in the parking lot at Bass Pro Shop was like your your source.
+
+[1:30:04] You don't recall this? I don't remember who the restaurateur was, though. Well, oh, it might have been, I think it was Mario Bitali, actually. Oh wow, that sounds weird. And it was just like, who knows?
+
+[1:30:15] Like this lady had no idea. It was very funny. Yeah. That was good times. Good times.
+
+[1:30:20] Yeah. Uh well, you know why I don't go to Bass Pro? It's so expensive, dude. Bass Pro, you'd think that like it's a big shop, it's gonna give you some kind of a discount. It's consistently expensive.
+
+[1:30:31] And also they didn't get on board, but I'm not gonna get into it. Not a political show. Not gonna get it. All right. Uh Joshua Kuhn wrote in favorite uh was when I don't even remember doing this, but apparently uh I joked about someone fatting fattening me up to feed me to their dog.
+
+[1:30:48] And uh, and then I went ape about uh people not realizing that meat comes from animals. But I mean, I that sounds like something I would do. Sounds bad. But I I have no I and their their favorite quote from you. Oh, I guess it was from me asking you whether or not a cooked raccoon actually looks like a small child, which it does.
+
+[1:31:08] Yeah. That was Nastasia's, I think, favorite thing that a you want to tell that, tell that quickly that story about what the uh the tour guide said. You cooked a raccoon in one of the classrooms at the FCI, and the one of the FCI instructors was giving a tour, and then the person on the tour was like, what is that guy? What is that guy making? And then the tour guide that represents the school said, I don't know, baby.
+
+[1:31:36] Uh oh, and then the other favorite rant, which I can't believe we didn't call up, but I I'm so glad we didn't talk about this when Clara was on the air. But the wedding officiant rant. Oh, that was very cool. Yes. That's my favorite.
+
+[1:31:48] Well, we should uh all right, you know, uh maybe Matt will find uh or John will find where. I I should be able to find it. I I listened to that, and I will have to admit I was a little harsh. All right? Yeah.
+
+[1:32:04] I was a little bit harsh. I will say, I still think what I said was correct. I stand by what I said. However, a little bit harsh. A little bit harsh.
+
+[1:32:16] Um then uh Matt wrote in, Matthew Clark wrote in. They uh want to hear one of my MSG rants. We don't have the time to go into it now. I don't know if you're gonna find one to plug in later. Uh and uh the rant on tilapia where in the episode 144, Chug in Diet Coke, where uh where wherein I say that tilapia is best cooked in the trash can.
+
+[1:32:40] I believe it was your friend Phil Bravo who was calling in to ask about uh tilapia cooking techniques, and I told him to uh prepare it by throwing it into the garbage can. Yep. Uh, which is what I still believe. But then John and I went on to that transcript, cooking issues transcripts.com. And if you type tilapia in that, I basically say tilapia is garbage like what, 30 or 40 times over the course of our existence?
+
+[1:33:04] That sounds about right. Yeah. I mean like it it's like people say that I go crazy about sandwiches and hot dogs, but really you bring up tilapi and I'm like garbage fish. Yeah. And uh they the the machine transcript believes that I'm saying jasmine.
+
+[1:33:21] It's not jasmine in case I'm not pronouncing correctly it's Jasmine is the dirt and jasmine is the flower. Do you like jasmine stuff? Yeah I do a lot. As a flavor and a flower both um no it is as a flower smell. Like the smell?
+
+[1:33:37] But you but what about like tea with it? You're okay you like as a tea? Yeah the tea's good. Okay. Um Joe Joe Ankovich writes in I don't know if we have it or whether you don't have time to play it now I don't know if you can insert it later.
+
+[1:33:51] But uh in episode 333 where I talk about the Juspiti. Oh I love that one. I can say this because both my grandparents are dead but I still have never forgiven them for uh making me leave my mom and stepfather's wedding early so for what really oh yeah because oh my God I never told you this story? No. Okay.
+
+[1:34:11] So my stepfather's family, you know, uh you know they're Italian right the father who died last year is butcher right and you know Gerard was you know Gerard is the you know the son and even though typically you know my mom's family would have paid for the wedding you know, grandma and grandpa were too cheap. So, and you know, they didn't have the money. So, Gerard's dad throws this huge wedding, goes all out on the food, all out. So, for months, I'm hearing about the food at this wedding, the food at this wedding, the food at this wedding. And how old were you?
+
+[1:34:42] Uh, how old was I? This uh 12, 11, 12. So they tell me, they're like, We're getting this special Italian pastry from the North Espidi. We're getting Juspiti. I'm like, Juspeedy, what's just speedy?
+
+[1:34:55] They're like, it's this thing. It's like this, it's like this ethereal, amazing, it's the speedy. Oh man, oh Laddie, you're getting the speedy for the wedding, you're getting the chispiti. Oh, there's just speedy, oh, there's just be just speedy. Everything, everything.
+
+[1:35:06] Every day I hear, oh, oh, are you sure you're gonna have the chuspe? Yeah, we have the shuspidi, we get the shuspidi, and then they're like the day of the wedding, did you pick it up? Did you get speedy, yeah, just speedy? And so, like, you know, I'm waiting for this whole wedding. It's you know, I'm not, you know, I'm young, I don't drink, it's boring, I'm it's not boring.
+
+[1:35:20] My mom's getting married, and Gerard and everything. So it's great. But we're all sitting around, I'm like, I'm like, the whole thing. I'm like, okay, the dinner, great, yeah, the lamb, great, great, great. Oh, full food, good.
+
+[1:35:28] Juspiti, just speedy, just be speedy, just speedy. They start doing the dancing, they're getting ready to bring out the thing. And grandma and grandpa are like, we're leaving now because we're getting in the motorhome and we're driving back home now. I'm like, no! And I never got to have the freaky Juspidi.
+
+[1:35:45] And here's the worst part about it. We get in the freaking motorhome, leave the wedding early, we drive. By the way, my grandparents lived in my driveway for three years in this freaking motorhome. One day they just showed up, put the motorhome on blocks, and plugged into our house and didn't leave for three years. When they finally got that thing out, there was dent.
+
+[1:36:03] There was a dent four inches deep in our freaking driveway from the blocks of this motorhome. Grandma, who only like used electric blankets, she used electric blankets constantly. We constantly blow out the circuits in our house because there's freaking umbilical cord coming out of this motor home, which contained, get this, grandma, grandpa, two dogs, and a parrot. I swear to God. Anyway, so they drive back from this wedding, and we end up in the bottom of the driveway, and then they look at me, they're like, Do you have keys to get into the house?
+
+[1:36:32] No! I don't, Grandma. I'm 11. Why did I leave my mom's wedding early so that we could drive through the night and end up in a driveway, and I can't even get into my house, and now I've never had just speedy. And to this day, I don't even remember what a speedy is, but it was someone said like I like I just walk around sometimes and just goes, just beady, just beady, just beady, just beatty.
+
+[1:36:57] Never have I tried it, and I've never been able to figure out what actually the pastry is because that entire generation of Italian uh people from Medford, they're all dead. Every single one of them is dead. And so I cannot find out what in the heck an actuality is. I just know it's the world's greatest pastry, and that I will never have one. Right?
+
+[1:37:18] You can't even what? How about how do you how do you even spell Juspeedy? I don't know. I don't know. I mean whatever the auto-transcribe says is the way to spell it.
+
+[1:37:31] It's a right. The other one the other one is it like there was a there was a pastry that was that I've never had, uh, the real one. I've made it, and then my stepfather was like, no, not right. Where the pronunciation in Medford was shijdauddly. What?
+
+[1:37:50] Chija dauddlee. What? Chija dauddly. And so, like, and and then I'm like, well, what was in it? It's like chestnuts and like in a ravioli with wine fried and then with uh with sugar on the outside.
+
+[1:38:03] I was like, honey, like a struvoli? They're like, no. And so, like, yeah, but I it's so like I tried to find, and there's all these like funny restaurants, uh, sorry, recipes in the in that part of Italy where sometimes we'll have chestnuts and sometimes they'll have chickpeas, right? So I'm thinking the original is like chi chi, like chick chickpea, right? Or checchi.
+
+[1:38:23] How's it actually pronounced, Daz? Chechi. Chechi. So I'm thinking it's like Chechi, like a chickpea thing, but I don't know. I can't find it.
+
+[1:38:29] If one of you can help me out, I'd appreciate it. Um let me see. Uh oh. So uh Michael, uh Nastasia, what uh he enjoys is uh when you ask for the demographic information about listeners. And he would like you to know that he is 30, married, and that his wife supports his equipment purchases.
+
+[1:38:52] And over the years he's built a meat room in his basement with a small commercial meat grinder. So where does that fit with uh with your with your list? Sounds about right. I mean, sounds about right. Yeah.
+
+[1:39:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is our I wish you would just accept that that's what our audience is, Dave. Why what you're saying that, like, what is it that you think that I you think we have a diverse and equal, like man-woman ratio, and we do.
+
+[1:39:21] I never said that. Well, whenever I tell you who our demographic is, you're like, that's not true, that's not true. And I'm like, okay. Oh, well, first of all, no, you say a lot of things, not just like that it's mostly male. You say a lot of things.
+
+[1:39:35] Yeah, I say most of them. And like that's what I you know, I it it's it's not that we're I would like us to be more diverse and more equal. I would enjoy that. That would be better. Then you should stop mansplaining to me, and maybe we'd get more female.
+
+[1:39:47] What am I mansplaining? You say that, but you won't give me an example. Telling me who our demographic is. I am telling you that I'm not doing that. Okay.
+
+[1:39:58] You can't do that. You can't just bust out a trigger word. You can't just bust out a trigger word and then be like, okay. We're very, very close to the end of the show. Well, hold on, hold on, well.
+
+[1:40:08] Just give like so, like me disagree me disagreeing with you you consider to be mansplaining? Well it's never a disag it's never just I can't hear you. It's never just a no that's not like I don't believe what you're saying. It's like no and let me tell you why I'm right. Like always.
+
+[1:40:26] It's never just a I don't think that I don't believe what you're saying. I don't agree with what you're saying period. Let's move on. It's like you're wrong and let me explain why every single time. So so the way that you have a disagreement with someone is you say something I say something you disagree and then that's the end of it.
+
+[1:40:42] There's no back and forth. When we're on a radio show I mean why don't you isn't the point of a radio show to have back and forth? Why don't we just move on though? But isn't the point of the radio show to have a back and forth? Yeah.
+
+[1:40:55] Yeah but you won't rest until I see it your way every single okay you're right oh you're such a jerk such a jerk you know what I mean? Warm and fuzzy anniversary show. Yeah no this is so on brand it's fine it's great yeah mansplain all right and that thank you to Claire who's chilling somewhere in uh Tulumny trail right now. She's on the honey trail uh is is her favorite still a super buttery, super okey Chardonnay? Oh yeah.
+
+[1:41:40] Yeah. And am I allowed to talk about Nastasia? Like we should have some goals. We should have some goals for the future. So one person said that they hope that you know we make a lot of money with our next products, and that our you know, our choice is which which helicopter we get to uh ride in uh you know when it's 10 years from now.
+
+[1:42:00] Although I've never ridden in a helicopter. Nastasia's the helicopter aficionado. Do you even like what like is do you notice a big difference between the different helicopters you've been in? Yeah, that's yes. Let's not talk about that.
+
+[1:42:12] Well, what do you what's the good brand? Is there a known good brand? Who cares? Apparently the listener does. Who is that's the reason why we're here?
+
+[1:42:20] Um so what what do you want to have happen in the next 10 years? Uh we will have sold our company. Um Here's the thing. What how much money in 10 years' time when your friend comes over to your house, what kind of bottle of wine are they bringing you? I think it's some kind of real champagne.
+
+[1:42:41] Alright, so that's like they're bringing what what is it? It's like a it's like a Krug. It's a $30 invest. Oh. What?
+
+[1:42:47] Right? I said Krug, but yeah, $30. Oh, Krug, Krug. You better get a new set of friends and coworkers. I like I I can bring it.
+
+[1:42:56] If if if we're both rich, then it's not a problem. But like, you know, you're not gonna like, you're not gonna not invite your friends who aren't at crew level, right? Right, right, right. You won't bring it up. You would still prefer the friend that's at crew level.
+
+[1:43:09] Yeah, but like you would prefer nothing to the yellow tail, is that right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, duh. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:43:18] Yellow tail. Wait, is yellowtail? They make all the different flavors, right? I think so. Dan, that's is that your least favorite of all of them?
+
+[1:43:26] Chardonnay yellowtail or Shiraz yellowtail? Oh, sounds gross. What do you want in 10 years, Dave? Wait, let me guess. You're gonna say, I don't know.
+
+[1:43:35] I don't really know. Explain to me what I want. No, I don't see. No. You I say you're gonna say that.
+
+[1:43:42] No, explain to me, explain to me what I want. I have no clue. I just asked you. Uh-huh. What do you want?
+
+[1:43:48] I don't know. Seriously, what are you gonna say? What do you want in 10 years? Um, I want you to have been wrong by many years on when the book is finished. Okay.
+
+[1:44:03] Um I I want I want the next product to be successful and in, you know. Yeah. I also agree. I wish we I uh I would like for us to get in a position where somebody with some money wants to uh buy the business so that they it can expand more, right? Yeah.
+
+[1:44:21] So that we're not having to worry about every shipment of a thousand spinzalls and so that poor John doesn't have to FaceTime a bunch of people who have trouble getting their spinzalls open. Am I right, John? Yep, I'll have to do that in 20 minutes, actually. Ah jeebus. Uh yeah.
+
+[1:44:37] That's pretty much it. Oh, I know what I want. I want uh Jen and I to get another place outside the city that she designs and we build fresh, so I'm not dealing with anybody else's quote unquote existing conditions. And we're gonna have the sick outdoor kitchen, and if I'm super dupe rich, I'll I'll get that Kalamazoo grill, that $8 billion Kalamazoo grill. I don't even know if it cooks better.
+
+[1:44:59] I just want that thing. I want a grill where everyone signs the inside of it after they build it. You know what I mean? What uh is your bar opening? You want to give it a plug?
+
+[1:45:07] Uh well, we're supposed to be opening for uh takeout and outdoor dining this Thursday, uh, assuming that you know everything doesn't get shut down again. Everything, everything is always in flux as the rest of the country keeps getting rehit again and again and the numbers go up and down. Everything's in flux, but the plan is to be open um on Thursday with outdoor dining. We have a platform with some planters outside. Um, so that should be fun.
+
+[1:45:32] Uh I won't actually be able to be there this week weekend, unfortunately, but I'll probably be there the weekend after to uh check it out. Um what about you, Jack? What do you got for the next 10 years? And I just want to be happy. I want to learn jazz piano.
+
+[1:45:47] Wow. Playing a group with stats. Wow. I just quit like a half hour ago to Jack. So damn.
+
+[1:45:56] I'll take your place. Yeah, I want to be happy. That's it. Matt, what about you? I actually hope to open a place in DC.
+
+[1:46:06] Um that's kind of like 2024. I'm looking at some kind of small venue bar situation. So that's my next project. My word of advice. Plan for social distancing.
+
+[1:46:17] Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing about DC, right? The thing about New York and DC is that we're so tourist-driven for different things. That's what that's what I don't understand.
+
+[1:46:29] That's that's why it's kind of hard for me to figure out the future because I don't know what the future of the tourist business is. Right. You know, correct. So, like, you know, you I visited some small towns, and I feel good about their um their hospitality business in the sense that you know, as soon as people can go out more, you know, those places are local, and I think they're gonna, you know, you know, do well. But it's the places that require um, it's the places that require a lot of tourism and travel that I'm just kind of, you know, or like you know, financial hubs and things like that like New York or government hubs like DC.
+
+[1:47:08] I just don't know. So I'm I'm I'm hopeful, but I I don't know. It's hard to plan, it's hard to plan for the future, you know? Sure is. Yeah.
+
+[1:47:16] What about you? What do you about you, Matt? You gonna be heritaging for the next 10 years or what? I have no idea. I mean, I I I would mostly echo the sentiment.
+
+[1:47:23] I'm having a hard time predicting things out for four weeks from now. So no, I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:47:30] What about what about you, John? Uh not a club. No. Right now. Yeah.
+
+[1:47:35] Well, my hope my hope, my hope is that uh, you know, that the museum gets going back strong again, the museum of food and drink from whence we got, John, and that uh, you know, those jobs just uh keep coming, and that, you know, everyone can go back and work at the museum and their jobs will grow with the institution. That's what that's what I hope for the institution. So anyway, we'll look back in ten years if we're alive and see where we got. Thanks for listening, folks. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:48:08] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:48:22] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:48:44] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Dashable, an app to help you find deals, discounts, and coupons for local businesses in New York City. HRN is offering complimentary business memberships to 50 black indigenous people of color owned food businesses this summer. The deadline to apply is July 31st. Each business membership, a $500 value, is an advertising opportunity that will allow businesses disproportionately impacted by COVID 19 to connect with HRN's listening community and promote their work. To apply and review the terms and conditions, go to heritage radio network.org slash B I Z.
+
+[1:04] Oh yeah! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marl, your host of Cooking Your Shoes, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever I'm doing from the Lower East Side here in Manhattan, as is our special guest who I'll introduce in a minute. We have as usual Nastasia the Hammer Lopez uh calling in from Stanford, Connecticut on the sound. How you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:26] Good. We got Matt in the booth. How what's going on? Well, we'll get to that in a minute. How you doing, Matt?
+
+[1:34] I'm doing great. We got John from Murray Murray Murray Hill Hill Hill. How you doing? Doing well, thank you. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:41] And uh that by the way, that that intro was done years ago. Now, this is that is not the style of music that Nastasia grooves on, true or false. I hate that music. I think it's not cool. Okay.
+
+[1:55] It's not cool. Okay. That was by longtime uh listener, friend of the show, and someone I know in the real life, Joel Gargano, who has an amazing restaurant called Grano Arso in uh Chester, Connecticut. They are, I don't know if they're open yet for any inside business, but they have an outdoor business and a and a takeaway business. And if you like food that tastes good, I suggest going to his restaurant when you are in Chester.
+
+[2:24] And in fact, we don't have it queued up, but there is a cooking issues related jingle about it. Yes. I'm sure the food is cool. The food is cool, yes. And uh I think they John, you you independently verify this.
+
+[2:38] You've been to his restaurant. Yeah, it's uh he makes some of my favorite pasta out there. His food is really delicious. Really, really love it, yeah. Now I have a another friend of mine who is our special guest for today, who is also on a Zoom call, but I can almost throw a rock and hit him if I could throw a rock that high, because he lives in the same sort of co-opy units.
+
+[3:03] They in fact the buildings he used to live in, that he lives in, used to be the exact same co-op as as the one I'm in. There was a major fight like 15 years ago. Well, John DeBerry, friend of the show, friend in the real life, John DeBerry. How you doing, John? Pretty good.
+
+[3:20] I could talk about the uh the balconization of the uh East River housing uh co-op for an entire show, but I don't know if that's necessary. Well, give me the okay, so so it's a classic New York scenario. What they did was is there was a bunch of what they considered undesirable uh tenement style housing in the lower east side between the water, which is the East River here, and Essex Street, that they just annihilated. They just freaking like this is what they used to do, and probably what they still do is like, hey, um, there's a problem with this area. Why don't we kick everybody out and annihilate it?
+
+[3:58] So they did that and then built up a series of co-op buildings, which at the time were um they're co-ops, so you own them, but they're they they were intended they were paid for with government money, so they were intended for kind of um, you know, they weren't fancy. Uh called Mitchellama houses, and they extended from like Essex Street to the water, which is like a what, a fifteen minute walk, John total, so it's big. Yeah. It's extensive. And they were all the same kind of owned by the same kind of co-op group, and then there was a fight.
+
+[4:30] You want to discuss the fight or you just wanna like you wanna leave it over. Well, I actually don't know a ton about about the fight, but basically it was started by you know this you know, amalgamated bank. It's the same group of people. It's basically like Jewish factory workers in the fifties got together and created like a co-op um place to live. And there's women the women's garment workers union, right?
+
+[4:51] Yeah. And then there's like so there's like a amalgamated is it named one of the subunits, and there's Hillman and Hillman's the guy who started Amalgamated, and then there's Steward Park, and then we're in East River. Uh and then Stewart Park broke off and I have to say they they they're a little bit n nicer, so I think they probably got the the better end of that deal. Well, actually I think yours a lot of board drama. Your landscaping is nicer.
+
+[5:17] And you have a whole like you have the better water views. Yeah. And you have all the you have all that like playground bull. We have like nothing. I mean it's nice, but it's not.
+
+[5:25] It's no Seward Park. The the the original fight was because it used to be that houses here cost uh or co-ops, apartments cost almost nothing. Literally like 20 grand. And but you couldn't just sell your co-op to somebody else. It would like go back into the co-op.
+
+[5:42] So the people who were on the board used to do all this incredibly shady dealing where they would like deal to themselves and their family and they would build up these mega apartments where they would like they would like almost like gerbils like bust their or hamsters bust their way through apartments and like up and down and and get all the plum stuff. So there was a lot of unrest, shall we say. And uh then there was like dealing about who was gonna run the power, so they broke they broke apart. Anyway, so John and I are not in the same apartments, but they're kind of the same apartments. We've it's like we was brothers, you know what I mean?
+
+[6:13] Yeah. I think I can see your building from my window. Yeah, I can't. But you're on the other side. I'm way down.
+
+[6:19] Hey, listen, for those of you who I can keep tabs on you. Right, right. Which is smart. For those of you who are crazy enough during the COVID to want to move into New York City, let me give you this piece of advice. You either wanna be high enough up to get the good views, or you want to be low enough such that you can see trees, but not so low that people are knocking on your window.
+
+[6:43] So that's that should be your you you should like you should be looking at floors three and four or high enough to get a good view. That is my little bit of advice to you. And you know, Nastasia only wants you to look on the west side of Manhattan, not down where we live, because she believes the sun is nicer over there. But it's not true. The sun's nice everywhere.
+
+[7:06] But you you are a you're a west side girl, true. Um, yeah, I like the west side. Yeah. You lived on the east side for what, about 20, 30 minutes before you were like, I gotta get out of here? No, in college I lived on the in Midtown East.
+
+[7:20] And what and what'd you think? It was nice. It was great. I liked it. Really?
+
+[7:24] Yeah. Anyway, I've only known you to live uh over in the Hell's Kitchen area. That seems to be if I had to pick a Nastasi neighborhood, that would be it. I think if you even if you had like like boatloads of cash such that you were like, you know, rafting around in in your money pile, would you would that be the neighborhood you would choose to live in in Mat if you were gonna live in in New York? No, Central Park, because you'll never have construction in front of you.
+
+[7:48] Oh yeah? West Park. Uh anything below anything below 60th east west south. Wait, wait, would you want like one of those 60th? No, you mean basically on 59th Street then.
+
+[8:04] You mean on 59th Street? Below 72. Yeah, I guess yeah, below 55th. That's so weird. Basically, I'll only live on Central Park South.
+
+[8:13] But we're talking Rebecca. Oh yeah, we have Rebecca, the boondoggler also on the air. I forgot to call where are you calling in from? I'm calling in from my home. Dave, where do I live?
+
+[8:21] I'm just curious if you know. We live somewhere in Brooklyn, but I've never been to your house, so I have no idea where it is. That's true. I uh so I'm um basically um right near the Brooklyn Museum. So wait, the Brooklyn, the one that's right next to the botanical gardens?
+
+[8:40] Yes, yes. That's a great museum. Can I just say that like when they open again? If you have not been to the the the Brooklyn, what's it actually called? Does anyone know the Brooklyn Art Museum?
+
+[8:51] What's it called? The Brooklyn Museum. Brooklyn Museum? Yeah. Fantastic museum.
+
+[8:55] Like, I was like, well, I live in Manhattan, I've got all the museums, I got all the good stuff. Brooklyn Museum worth a visit. Also the Notanic Gardens. Okay, listen, I like the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens. It is uh I have Nastasia.
+
+[9:10] That is where Nastasia perpetrated the uh the Santa Claus atrocity. So I have a love in my heart for it for that reason. I still I can now like all I'm picturing is Nastasia like bent over double laughing her behind off while Santa is bathed in his own puke dancing on the road. And you and Jack went and hid behind the bar. Like that was very cowardly.
+
+[9:37] Uh also um, it wasn't just Nastasia, it was me too. Were you also bent over double laughing? Probably. And that was also that was also the day when we when we punked uh Heritage Radio. That was the best.
+
+[9:52] Yes, yes. So for those of you we didn't tell this on last week's show, but Nastasi and I were like they they Heritage kept on calling and pestering us about whether when we were gonna show up and in make our cocktails. We were doing a frozen drink machine at the time. We were making frozen Courseras, which is a preserved lemon drink, and uh Nastasia sends uh it we were talking about it. It wasn't that she was doing this on her own, so I'm not trying to say that she's a bad person.
+
+[10:19] We were both doing it, right? But she sends a um a text to Heritage basically saying, uh so like what time tomorrow is it was the day of the event? What time tomorrow is loaded in, right? And I'm gonna we're gonna go non-family for just one second, right? We're gonna go non-family.
+
+[10:38] Yeah, remove your children if they're listening, at least 37. So Nastasi goes at and then they they write back, it's today, it's right now. And she goes, Oh sh. Sends that text, oh and that was it. That's a horrible.
+
+[10:55] But question for you, Dave. Why do you think that Heritage um was checking in on you? Like, why do you think they felt the need to see if you were gonna be there? Hey Nastasia micromanagers. Nastasia.
+
+[11:08] In your whole life, in your whole life, how many times when you said you're gonna do something have you not done it? Always. No, I mean, like you've never got that, right? Keeping that, that there's nothing you can say now. That's the end of the show.
+
+[11:24] Yeah. You always do what you're gonna say. Likewise, like if someone's if I say I'm gonna do a demo or something like that, do I do it? Yeah. Okay.
+
+[11:33] Yeah, but you might be late, but you'll do it. I think it was more about like the timing in general, you know. And but I will say though, that um that was an incredible party. And the fact that wine Santa got relegated to the end of it because he was uh spewing red wine on himself was pretty much the highlight of the party for me. And Matt, I know I I I saw you the next day, right?
+
+[11:58] Because I came back to pick up wine Santa and you've got to be a little bit more than a thing. I think I had his head and you had the rest of them or the other way around. I can't call it. I there were there was there were some horrified children in the botanic garden being like, what is happening? So I we got on this because we're talking about the botanic garden, and I was just gonna say I'm more of a New York Botanic Garden Bronx fellow myself, but I do like the Brooklyn Botanic Garden.
+
+[12:25] But going back to what you just said, that Wine Santa was puking up wine all over himself, and then we switched him to vodka. Now, John DeBary has just written a book called Drink What You Want, which is one of the reasons he's on this show. It's an amazing book. And so is that a valid thing to want to be throwing up red wine over yourself, boot and rally, and go on to straight vodka, or not a valid thing in the in the context of drink what you want. I'm presuming that that is not the meaning of the book.
+
+[12:54] So why don't you tell us a little bit about the book? Well, I mean, I guess the meaning of the book is like if it works for you, then good for you. Um so if that's the transition you want to make, you know, I'm not here to judge you too much. Um but yeah, the point of the book uh was to really kind of democratize or sort of like break down uh what makes drinks good on a few different kind of axes or you know, measurement ways of measuring. Um and then show people that the reason why a lot of drinks succeed or fail um is sort of based on the same principles and whether or not you're doing something, you know, super elaborate, like with like let's say a rota vap or something like that, you know, or you're sort of throwing something together with what you have on hand, like you're kind of still using the basic principles and the skills are kind of the same.
+
+[13:50] Um so you don't have to worry too much about like doing something necessarily wrong because you don't have the right setup. It's more about well, you're using the tools you have and you're finding drinks that taste good um given what you're able to do at the time. So it's kind of like it's this sort of like after being regurgitated through like the high-end bar and restaurant world for 10 years, I like came out of it on the other side being like actually things are really a lot more similar than they are different. Um, here's how you know here's why the daiquiri is you know the like kind of primordial sour, and you can riff all these drinks on it, but they all kind of work in the same way. And here's how to sort of like demystify a lot of this stuff.
+
+[14:31] Cause I think that like a lot of people tend to feel like if they're not an expert at drink making, then they're just like completely hopeless and they shouldn't even try. You know, so it's trying to trying to get to the point where people are really discomfortable because kind of like basically around in their own the comfort of their own environment. Um and then saying you can build on that if you you know if you want to get get get fancier uh or more elaborate. Right. So you start with a you start fun.
+
+[15:00] So first of all, let's talk about the are we not are we not doing a family show or yeah, we are, we are. He's lived come on, Sad. I mean, yes, yes. Oh, I think I didn't who did the illustrations for this book, by the way. Uh her name is Sarah Tennant Jones.
+
+[15:13] She's the artist based in the UK. Um, and I feel really uh lucky that my publisher found her because I think she like weirdly nailed my my personality based on like not a whole ton. Like she started working on the illustrations like before the manuscript was finished. So it was kind of like this parallel process. And like I don't think we even spoke on the phone, you know, we like sent a lot of emails back and forth and like shot lists and sort of like basic ideas.
+
+[15:41] And I think she mined my Instagram pretty nicely as well. Um, and then just like this the whole kind of sort of sketchy uh but sharp um kind of personality of the book, it was really just captured really, really expertly. Um and I I knew I didn't want um photos because I did enough uh cocktail photo shoots that I have like a pretty um like pretty good PTSD from how long that takes and how expensive they are and how it's really only to me it's a lot about the glassware than the drink itself. Um so I'd rather just have more fun with it and kind of have a more presentational um depiction of drinks to show like okay, well you could do this, but if it doesn't look exactly like this, it's not wrong. Like you're still gonna have a good time if it's if it works for you.
+
+[16:27] Um so I I was really adamant about illustrations and originally I wanted to do kind of like a comic book thing, but that was like way too elaborate. Um so we've kind of like settled on this, and I couldn't be happier. So for those of you that don't know that have never had to do it, like shooting endless amounts of cocktails for a book is completely soul crushing. It's like the actual worst. Yeah.
+
+[16:51] Yeah. I mean, so uh I know you know our you know mutual friend partner Don Lee had to do a bunch of that because he worked on with Jim on me and uh who wrote the forward for this book on one of on one of those things. But it's just like making everything look different or interesting in the context of a book where you're doing bazillion cocktails, it's just like what are we gonna do with this one? Right? I mean you know what I mean.
+
+[17:17] It's just like like it like it's the opposite of like coming up with like an interesting new cocktail recipe or a twist on a cocktail where you can feel interested in what you're doing, like being forced to make something look vi especially for someone like me anyway, where like I don't do garnish. Yeah, same. I was like, money though, all these drinks are so simple, like you're just gonna lost. It's basically just pictures of glassware. Yeah.
+
+[17:39] Yeah. So it's completely nice. Which yeah, it's a nightmare. So but like I didn't actually um I should have known this, I guess, but like I didn't know that you were kind of into the kind of 50s, 60s vibe. Because it's interesting because the illustrations and John, you commented on on how much you like the illustrations, right?
+
+[17:56] Yeah. Yep. Very big it's got this like 50s, 60s like specific Americana vibe, but then obviously the cocktails could be part of that, but then you know, the illustration of you on page 132, and God, I hope you own that outfit, right? Where you're like some sort of like party vampire. Mm-hmm.
+
+[18:13] Uh more or less shoes. Do you own that outfit? Because that wouldn't be in that normal 50s 60s book. And I want to see you in that outfit at all times. Like which aspects of that outfit do you own?
+
+[18:24] Do you own the loose site cane? Oh I wish man the cane would be great. Um I um I only what do I have that's looseight nothing. Hmm shopping list. Um the funny thing is that a lot of that stuff was just was was with Sarah like I we didn't give her a ton of guidance on the um the feeling you know depictions of me you know like feeling I think that's feeling fancy and then there's desperate and you know festive and all this stuff and really it was just like you know this is the basic idea.
+
+[18:55] We want a picture of me doing something that represents the the mood of each chapter, you know um and I think we probably at least I didn't give her a ton of like direct like explicit guidance like oh I want you to depict me in like these these clothes or like you know this you know pit position or anything. It was just you know, it just really um I feel like it just came down a lot to this the chemistry between the two of us in terms of just like she understood what I was doing without having to be given a lot of like really explicit instructions. I mean, I'm sure there was a lot between her and the art director in the book, but um it just felt very it just felt very natural. Like any if you look at her past work, it's all has this really nice um like you said, like kind of mod 50s sort of feeling to it, but it's so it's sort of timeless, but also calls to like it feels very specific, but it doesn't feel like dated or like kind of periody. Um so you're telling me you don't own the Fred McMurray My Three Son shoes on page 102, and you don't own that easy chair.
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+[19:56] I want you to own that easy chair because it's in the feeling classic, it's in the classic cocktail section. There's a picture of John DeBerry in white white bow tie. If a by the way, for those of you that know Jimmy. Probably have a big white bow tie, yeah. A demure JDB, you check out his Instagram, you see what I'm saying.
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+[20:12] That is a very demure JDB. In like uh, I mean, I would have that. I mean, it wouldn't really fit, you know, my wife being a kind of more modern architect, that chair wouldn't fit in with her aesthetic, but I would sit in that chair. I want you to have that chair and those shoes, you know. Anyway, uh wait, one last thing I have to ask about the pictures.
+
+[20:30] Does that mean so John writes about a glassware and he includes a section on coffee mugs, just so that he can say that he wishes that you would throw away your mismatched coffee mugs and get matching coffee mugs, or not throw them away, but have but then he has two mismatched mugs. Oh no, those are the tiki glass sections, those aren't mugs. Because I thought of that octopus as a mug, and I want that octopus glass real bad. Do you want that octopus glass? No, I don't.
+
+[20:58] Um the thing with the tiki mugs is that I I find like the kind of like kookamonga like tribal imagery to be a bit racist. So I was like telling her, I'm like, these are tiki mugs, but please don't use any tribal stuff. Like, probably you use like other imagery. Like I couldn't use Star Wars, obviously, but I do have Star Wars tiki mugs. Um, and I just tried to find a bunch of tiki mugs that didn't um have this sort of like tribal mask or Easter Island or any of that kind of like stuff that I think is a little kind of dated for a lot of for a lot of reasons.
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+[21:28] Um but you know, I think that the the coffee mug bit was sort of like I don't know if you know if you had experienced this as writing, but like a lot of times if you just sort of write and you only realize what it is you want to write until you're like done writing it. And I just sort of started writing about coffee mugs, and then I just kind of like blacked out, and I was just kind of like, who has matching coffee mugs? Like what kind of like deranged energy do you need to like not, you know, like everyone just sort of accumulates them in a sort of like, oh they have like one mug from like a newspaper from like 1990. Um, and then like they sort of accumulate these these random one-offs. Um, but like no one else does that for any other kind of glassware.
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+[22:06] So I just thought that was a really interesting phenomenon and uh basically just an excuse to write a stupid joke in the book. Um do you have a set of matching world's best bartender mugs? That would be amazing. Yeah, I do. Yeah.
+
+[22:19] Now definitely now before we get into too much, like one of your most famous drinks, which I think they still serve at PDT if you ask it. So you have a tiki mug illustration here of a shark, and I'm looking at this mug, and it would be physically impossible to drink out of it. So I'm assuming that is just there as a teaser for your drink, the shark. You want to talk about this drink? Yeah, uh, the shark is uh I think it's actually even though PDT is like basically just doing to go, um, they actually have it in a little to-go version, so you can still get it, even though you know their menus down to like four drinks.
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+[22:52] So I feel like I feel very validated in that. And I I came up with that like a really long time ago, back when I don't know probably like 2012 and I think everyone was very serious about cocktails um and the idea of even like having blue curaca like in the premises of a bar was like kind of heretical um and I think that we actually had a bottle of blue curacao um like by accident like it wasn't like an authorized purchase um so I was just kind of looking for ways to like do something stupid and I kind of started with the with the the shark is like butter infused rum and like cream frangelico and like blue curacao. So it's just kind of this like abomination of a drink um that doesn't make sense with any of the kind of fancy sort of like ornate and the kind of precious drinks that you find at a lot of cocktail bars. And it was sort of a one off like not one off but it was sort of like a like a like a like a flame war with Jimmy in because I was kind of like well how far can I push this like how far can I make this drink like as ridiculous as possible. And it just kind of like spiral out of control from there and then we ended up with the blue drink with cream on the menu that's been there for probably eight years now.
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+[24:04] Yeah well whenever I go like someone I'm with invariably because I have a well known hatred for blue Curacao not mainly stemming from the fact that I think you should just add blue food coloring to the drink if you want to use blue. Right? That's that's my main it's the same thing. Well but you would never choose you would never choose that spirit right to make to make blue. Right.
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+[24:29] You would choose like you would choose like whatever your actual favorite orange liqueur is and then just put a few drops of blue in it, right? And I always my gripe and I I should just say it like my my gripe has always been that like it's not the blueness that bothers me or the fact that it's fake, I just prefer more honesty in the fakeness. Now, where you're coming from is an entirely different place. It's a it's an F you on being precious about it, which I get. And there and like to be honest, in the bar world, and you you you can do it, you can do all of the spirit nerdery, right?
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+[25:07] So I feel I guess at a certain point you feel that you've earned the right to do whatever you want. You don't have to be full spirit nerd, you can be a little more fun, a little more like playful. Um I am actually I don't have the spirit nerdery that uh a lot of people have, like this producer, that producer. I haven't spent my time, you know, traveling the world, going to different distilleries to visit all the different places, like that's because that's just not my wheelhouse. And I've never had to, because I never really worked behind the stick on the regular, I've never had to have those kinds of discussions with patrons because if you're not a spirit nerd in a high-end cocktail bar, patrons will rip rip you it rip you a new one.
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+[25:51] They'll they'll try to they try to sniff out your your lack of knowledge in any one little category. Am I right about this? Sometimes, yeah, there's a there's a particular kind of person who who gets pleasure from doing that, right? Right. So, like kind of I had this place where I didn't like I didn't need to be able to kind of cut loose and say I'm gonna make something delicious with this ingredient that you hate.
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+[26:12] For me, it's more like, well, I would never choose that spirit other than for the blue, and so like I would rather just use blue, so that's where I'm coming from on it. You know what I mean? So it's not but that's it. I think that the senor Curso, which this isn't sponsored or anything like that, but like the brand that we used originally, I think it's probably still the same. I think actually tastes really good.
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+[26:29] Like it's actually a very good like Curaçao like liqueur. And then it just happens to be blue. Huh. Well that's good to know. Senior Curacao.
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+[26:42] Go try it out. The other thing is also this I've noticed and um things that taste the best on their own are not necessarily the things that taste best in a melange. You know what I'm saying? So um and this has happened to us time and again when you're doing recipe testing. This is goes for cooking and for drinks by the way is that you'll test a recipe with whatever you have on hand and then you'll be like well now I'm gonna go buy the good stuff thinking that that is inherently gonna make your product better.
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+[27:13] Not necessarily the case. Yeah things can definitely be less than some other parts. Yeah yeah and things that taste bad on their own can make things taste good in the in the levels and concentrations that you're using them. I definitely learned that doing you know all of my distillation work back in the day. Stas, I've never asked you what's your opinion on blue drinks um I like the one Nick Bennett serves.
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+[27:40] Yeah what's that one called as soon as he so Nick Bennett was the head bartender at Booker and Dax where there was a s like a strict no blue rule, right? Although now we have well now when we reopen in the real life like we'll you know um we have a a couple of but we just had food coloring food coloring to it. But what's the name of Nick's drink over there a porch Light, the blue one. I can't remember the name of it. I can't remember.
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+[28:02] It's something I feel like it's something up right now. Yeah, it's it's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, it's like for me, I don't use it for my own reasons.
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+[28:13] And I, you know, um, I don't know if you remember, John, you were in the audience, but we when we saw um the the Cocktail Kingdom put on the Japanese bartender series, and um, and you know, I you're for those of you that don't know, you spent how long living in Japan? Like a year or something like this? Oh, no, not that long. I mean, I spent about the max amount that you could spend on a tourist visa there, which is 90 days. Oh, you speak.
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+[28:42] But yeah, I mean, I studied uh Japanese history uh in college, so I had to take uh a lot of the language course for for the major. So yeah. Uh were you were you part of that, like I want to say like 20 and 12 or was that I think that's around when it was, right? 2012, like Japanese cocktail wave that was hitting the hitting the US, or no? Yeah, you know, I did that there.
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+[29:10] I think that's the course. I think maybe we were both in it. I think Lynette was in it. It was like a whole like Japanese bartending course taught by this like Romanian guy. I don't know what's who I think.
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+[29:19] Oh no, no, I didn't go to that, but that was the yeah, yeah. I remember what you're talking about. Stanislaus. Yeah, he he did it, he did a Tales of the Cocktail, a Japanese so okay, ancient history I know, but I'll give you a little bit. So everyone in the cocktail world was trying to figure out like what their kind of mystic connection to the drink was gonna be, such that their combination of three ingredients served in a glass was gonna be somehow magically and mystically better than your mixture of three ingredients put into a glass and served is gonna be.
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+[29:56] Would you say it's an accurate portrayal? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of sort of like storytelling and mythmaking involved in like the craft cocktail revival, if you will, of the last decade. Which is fine. By the way, it's okay. Yeah.
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+[30:10] Because like, you know, it a good myth, like literally can make someone enjoy the drink more. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? And so anything you do, whether it's a story, myth, like the truth and false, you know, the falsity of it isn't really the important thing.
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+[30:25] It's the enjoyment that the that the guest has. So I'm okay with it. I'm okay with stories. But there was this story around kind of the this and it's not really the fault of the bartenders that they were highlighting, right? That for instance the the hard shake or these very specific Japanese styles which were built around a very specific set of kind of cultural like um I don't know a cultural system in Japan for how those bars came to be the way they are how the apprentice system works in Japan, you know, how everything works over there has generated this stuff that to an American or a European is in some ways like very attractive, right?
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+[31:09] Very like, you know, like extremely uh what's the word I'm I can't come to the word I'm looking for, but like compelling, right? And so it kind of hit the world by storm and there was a group of Americans and Europeans who were like, I've tapped into the mysticism of the cocktail and they were doing this kind of work. And so you know you're an interesting case because you're not like that, right? But you were also like literally tuned in tuned in, i.e., you could speak and you'd been over there and done this stuff to kind of what they were talking about. So I mean, what do you what do you think about how that kind of shook down?
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+[31:44] Yeah, I mean, I think that there's like a it's a little bit problematic in terms of just like a like an American person, like goes to Japan for a week and then tries to teach people the hardshake. I think that's the case with kind of any you know body of knowledge. Like a lot of people get an exposure to it and they think they know a lot about it, and then they go and like kind of try to claim it as their own. Um, and that just sort of makes you look foolish and can be harmful in many contexts. Um so for me, it's like I knew enough to know that this was way more than I was willing to get myself involved in.
+
+[32:15] And in order to claim any kind of expertise or sort of any kind of like authority over this, it would be a lot more work than I was willing to put in. Um just knowing what I know about the about Japanese culture, you know, my limited amount of awareness. Like I knew it's not something you could take like a seminar, a weekly seminar, and just all of a sudden be able to be teaching other people how to do it or to even claim that you know how to do it. So for me, I was just like, that's a no for me. Like I like I this is cool to watch, like I like it's interesting to hear about.
+
+[32:43] I don't believe a lot of this stuff. I feel like a lot of the stuff is like gets like sort of telephone gamed out of like the real authentic sources, and then people start repeating it, and then it becomes this weird, like bastardized lore about like ice chips and air bubbles and you know, all these sort of silly things that that can get really um kind of more about the bartender than the person who's who's drinking, which goes back to like the kind of storytelling thing where it's like, yes, it you want to be like tell a compelling story with something you're serving as a bartender, but also if it's just about you showing off, then that's like really the opposite of hospitality. Um so I just knew that it was just I was just never gonna get there, so I just didn't even bother. Um, but I appreciate it. And I think it's I think it's cool and I love it, but I'm not gonna tell you tell people how to how to do a hard shake.
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+[33:29] And I can never get those Paris and Shakers open anyway. So that was also just big, big dude disqualifying on a practical standpoint. Well, when they were doing their demos here, right, so pr like so Parisian that the are the weird ones that like mesh in a way that doesn't seem like it's gonna be physically possible for those to go look it up, it's a thing. Um and and the cobblers also like you know, and any American's gonna want to be able to do two, two and a half drinks per run, because that's just the way we operate, you know what I mean? So like those cobbler shakers and the giant cobbler shakers, have you ever had one that doesn't leak?
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+[34:06] No. Yeah. So the first one I ever saw, Plymouth Gin, uh back when Simon Ford was running Plymouth Gin, made these giant shakers. I don't even know how much they hold, but like, you know, like those at some bar, yeah. You could I could I made like probably 10 drinks at once in one of those things.
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+[34:22] Yeah. And they are impressive. They leak like a mother. You know what I mean? There's just they leak.
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+[34:28] Anyway. Um, anyhow. All right. So now an interesting thing here that it's kind of like a the book we're talking about now again, drink what you want, is you're trying to kind of make people feel like a little bit less nervous about doing things. And I think there's something that you touch on that I think would be very useful for a lot of our listeners.
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+[34:50] A lot of the kind of questions that we get on the people who kind of call in or that I talk to kind of off air, um, you know, like it seems that there's people who are like very well versed in technique or in um in spirits lore or in spirits or food lore, but then when they have to go do something outside of what would be their normal comfort zone, they get very nervous. And so this idea of going to like a relative's house or an in-laws' house and having to make something from whatever they have can be kind of nerve-wracking, right? Because you don't want to uh insult them by saying, I can't work with your filth, you know what I mean? But on the other hand, you want to do something that is good. So this is something you address.
+
+[35:37] You want to talk about it? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that you have to sort of, I mean, I think that there's like a uh element of like knowing your own limitations too when you when you do things, and um with like I I think you're referring to like my in-laws flow chart, which sort of like is a nice way of like looking at how I think in terms of like backup plans and like catastrophic anxiety fantasies, but like you know, if you're in if you're in a place where you think you can pull something off, like a drink, you know, if you're like rummaging through someone's house, or if you're like at the beach, or if you're in these places where you just don't have everything at your fingertips and you want to do something with what you have rather than planning and going shopping and all that, um it's clear about managing expectations and you know you're not gonna make you know like a perfect rain of Stinfiz or something super elaborate with you know whatever you have on hand. But if you sort of set yourself up to be okay with like surprising yourself and sort of like being cool with like being having things rough around the edges or or even just be having it be a total failure. I mean, there's like so many times I've thought I'd made an amazing drink and it tasted like and you're just like, well, you know, you're not really risking a whole lot. Um so you know, the idea that you're gonna like like you're probably not gonna create anything, it's gonna explode.
+
+[36:57] Uh you're you know, you're not gonna kill anybody, probably um so like you know just like try it out and here are some principles that you can apply across many different kinds of of scenarios like you know balance like dilution like temperature like if you can kind of achieve these these goals in terms of like getting your drink cold enough or mixing it with enough water or aerating it in the case of a certain drinks like you can kind of use your ingenuity and use like your knowledge of like the endpoint um rather than getting too hung up on like oh I don't have a shaker or I don't have the right bar spoon or oh I should I have like gin instead of vodka like you can sort of you can sort of see through the kind of immediate limitations and kind of get to this endpoint. And it's a little bit more kind of liberating um and it just makes it more fun I think. Do you think it's I think it's hard maybe though sometimes for people to give themselves permission to be liberated right. So like for instance like for us like if you go somewhere and you're like oh big cocktail person make a cocktail you know you're like uh jeez you know what I mean it's like and then you gotta deal with thinking about see that's like a verbatim quote from people yeah yeah yeah I mean it happens and then so like if you know if in and this is gonna happen to a lot of people I think who you know are listening is when they go to somebody's house right they are going to be the person ooh foodie drink person blah blah and then you're like and then if then you feel if you don't give something that knocks their socks off you're a dick. Yeah you're yeah, right.
+
+[38:31] And so like I think like what what uh I think you know it's it's hard to give yourself permission to F up, right? But I think it's kind of necessary for your own sanity and also to do a good job with what you have on hand. Yeah, and I think it also has to do with like the way that the craft of bartendering has been sort of perceived over the years. And you know, if if you heard someone read a c read a cookbook and they came over to your house, you wouldn't be like, ooh, like make me a big Delaska and then like look at them funny when they didn't do it. You know, you understand that there's like a lot of preparation and expertise that goes into it.
+
+[39:06] But I think people don't have a lot of the same background in terms of cocktails, so they're like, oh well, you know, you're just a bartender, you just like throw them in together, like whatever, that's it. And it looks easy or you don't understand kind of the expertise or complexity that goes into it. And so you think it's just this thing that you can just kind of do wherever, um, which is true to a certain extent, the same way you can like make a sandwich, um, in a lot of places that aren't a professional kitchen. Um, but I think it sort of has to do with like this kind of catch up that the public is playing with like actually the skill and the expertise and and the kind of like lots of hard work that goes into making like really excellent cocktails look very easy when you go into like a cocktail bar and some bartender just you know does two seconds, throws together something that's that probably took like, you know, who knows like a week of preparation in the in the back and downstairs, barbacks, etc. Um, but you just don't see that.
+
+[39:59] So I think people have this kind of warped view about like what it takes to make a drink. And I think I had that too. Like I talk about it in the book where I thought I knew everything, and so I would just go to a friend's house and be like, oh, I'm gonna make you something and I'm like I don't even have a shaker, I don't even have like simple syrup. You know, it's so you have to like kind of catch up with your own like what you don't know about what you know. So I think that we're kind of in that still um where it's either it seems like really either really inaccessible or like really simple and easy, and there's no there isn's a lot of like middle ground and like nuance.
+
+[40:29] John can we talk about my favorite part of your book um if you don't the whole thing cocktail shaker well the whole thing uh but the uh alternative for a cocktail shaker um oh that's your favorite yes well I don't well I don't I don't go into this in like super detail in the book I I talk I talk about it a little bit uh but you know if you think about what a cocktail sh like what you're trying to achieve by shaking a drink you want to get it cold you want to get it diluted and you want to get it aerated so you want to like shake it around with it with something that will whip it into whip air into it you know whether that's a Booker and Dugs cocktail cube or some ice or whatever like a rock you know you you can kind of get creative um and so there's a lot of things in your in your kitchen that can that are like sealable containers that you can hold in your hand. So for me the the trusty quart container that is like the backbone of every uh restaurant along with cambros that are usually they're very large cambras but you have like small these like small square containers that are that like everyone kind of uh uses uh in restaurants but you don't see them a lot in homes um and yeah you basically any tupperware you can like I mean I mean I just thinking off the top of my head like you could even use like a Ziploc bag if you were like really desperate like there's a lot of ways around it. Um but to me the the four quart camber oh actually the the two quart camber and the uh the quart deli container are like they're high up there. Just make sure you hold that lid down dude. Just make sure you hold it.
+
+[42:01] Well if it's if it's a fresh if it's a fresh if it's a fresh camber, it's nice. Also, also remember, when you actually buy them, okay. We get them for real. We're talking about quart containers, what was called here a deli or a quart. They don't have them all over the country.
+
+[42:19] I don't know why. Because you can reuse them again and again. It seems like it's wasteful. It's not. No.
+
+[42:23] When you buy soup from somebody, they will invariably poke a hole in the lid. Yeah. Which just put your finger over that hole. It's not even gonna leak that much, but like I wish they I know why they poked a hole in the lid, but I wish they would not poke the hole in the lid. Also, you can just order them.
+
+[42:40] Like you can just they're like the belly containers, you can just get like a sleeve of like 15 and they last forever. The only thing you have to watch out for is that there's actually different this is something I've learned working in restaurants for too long, is that there's actually like a few different purveyors of core containers and they all have a little bit of a different fit. So you have to look at the bottom. There's like a few different manufacturers. Sometimes they have a logo on it, sometimes they don't.
+
+[43:02] So sometimes you're gonna mismatch. And that drives me nuts. So I actually buy I actually bought like a whole set from the same purveyor all at once. So they all matching, matching set. Yeah.
+
+[43:13] So you you refuse to have matching coffee mugs, but quart containers are like absolutely. I'll help you guys some more core container knowledge because I am also an aficionado of the quart container. Quart containers weigh ru they standard core container that we get. I think we buy fast cathy, I'm not sure. Uh the they weigh 32 grams.
+
+[43:35] Yep. Maybe summer's gonna weigh one more, one less if you get a different brand. Core containers without a lid weigh 32 grams. This is something you should commit to memory so that you just don't have to worry about thinking about it, right? When you're tearing stuff out on scales, or if you need to figure something out.
+
+[43:48] 32 grams. Second, core containers, the containers themselves are made of polypropylene. Polypropylene can handle heat quite well, which is why it's fine to nuke in one. You can even put one into better be careful it doesn't start floating, but you can put it into a water bath and heat it and heat around to like thaw that stuff out to pop it or whatever you're gonna do. Polypropylene, great.
+
+[44:12] Polypropylene, very, very bad at cold temperatures. Yeah, they get really brittle. Really brittle. So when you freeze a quart container, right, and you pull it out, you have to be very careful because if you set it down too hard, you'll crack the core container. Now, if you set it down real hard, or if you drop it, it'll shatter and there'll be little pieces of core container all over the all over your floor.
+
+[44:32] But if you just hit it and crack it without shattering it, which can happen as it thaws out, you'll get a leak. I've had this happen to me more times than I care to think about. The other thing is the lid on a core container is not made of polypropylene. The lid on a core container is made of polyethylene. And polyethylene, right, while it's got good flexibility and compliance and fits on, makes a nice lid, is not okay with super high heat.
+
+[44:59] So if you've ever noticed, if you put something into a quart container and nuke it, if you nuke it a little bit too long, like the the lid will turn into a chef's hat and then eventually explode off the top of the core container because you've expanded the the gas. But the reason that it expands out is because and deforms is because it's made of polyethylene, which has a much lower service temperature than polypropylene. Polyethylene, you're not even really supposed to boil it, the stuff that that is because not because it'll melt, but because it'll deform and become real kind of uh plasticky, which is why do they do that? So that it can seal over the edge of the bottom part? I guess, or you know, maybe it's on purpose, so that's the the first thing that blows off is the lid if somebody overheats it.
+
+[45:42] I don't know. But I mean, that's why you know, for years people said that not to use uh Ziploc bags, which are polyethylene, to do reheat on sous vide, and they made it seem like that because the company that makes the Ziploc bags didn't want you to put it in boiling water. Because if you've ever had Ziploc bags into really hot water, when you pull it out, you're like, oh my god, this feels weak, this feels wrong. Right? It's it's because it's approaching its service temperature.
+
+[46:07] So you really want to keep those lids below around like 70 Celsius, uh, you know, 60, 70 Celsius in that range to have their full structural integrity, and that that's why that happens. But I like this term service temperature. Service temperature, yeah. Very useful. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:24] Yeah. Um, I keep uh the other problem with core containers is, and I've seen this a million times, is please dry your core containers before you restack them. Oh god, yes. Please. And also, if you work in a restaurant like Sombar, where everyone's going to be packing core containers with chopped scallions, like try to segregate.
+
+[46:46] Try to segregate your your alliums from your from your grapefruit juice, especially something like grapefruit juice. Because like grape for some reason, and I think I'm reading uh you know an advanced copy of Harold McGee's new book, which is you know, when it comes out, we'll talk about, but like I think there are some sulfur y notes in grapefruit and like minor, like kind of not and so that when you have other sulfury notes like onions, it just really takes it in a wrong direction. You know what I mean? Like, especially grapefruit juice. It's any anything that but really like we had so many liters of gin and juice, which is grapefruit juice for us, ruined by pouring them into scallion tainted sambar quart containers.
+
+[47:25] Um so buy a sleeve of core containers, like John says for yourself. Get the lids, right? Don't throw them away unless you crack them. As soon as you crack them, please throw them away. Nothing's worse than pouring a liquid into it and having it pour all over your counter, right?
+
+[47:40] I also, John, you might not believe it, but I use uh or agree with this, but I also use them for storing my leftovers for food and whatnot because I think it's much more efficient. Yeah. So I also get the the pint containers and I have a couple of the eight ouncers around because it it's very sad and they all take the same lids if you get them in the same purveyor. It's sad for me to see a quarter-fold core container in my fridge. Real sad.
+
+[48:02] Yeah, that's that's the that's the restaurant life. Yeah, and drilled into you. Yeah, right. And if you've ever worked also, like here's more restaurant life. Uh don't first of all, you should have a station in your kitchen with plastic wrap, a decent quality plastic wrap.
+
+[48:18] I also have a bar sealer, not a vacuum sealer, a bar sealer to like reseal bags and tater chip things and and flour and rice packages and whatnot, right? But keep a roll of blue tape and a sharpie there. Yep. Right. And just, you know, just put a piece of blue tape.
+
+[48:34] It takes an extra second, but then you know when you put that in. So you're not, when did this go in? I don't know. What is it? Ba ba ba.
+
+[48:41] Just label it and keep that stuff in the like resist the temptation to take that sharpie and blue tape and put them elsewhere in your house. Keep them in your kitchen next to the plastic wrap, which is the classic place where you're going to be packaging everything to put back into your fridge. And uh remember my other piece of advice, which is if you wrap food in aluminum foil, just throw it away now. Right? Unless you label it with blue tape and you write what's on it.
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+[49:09] As soon as you put something in aluminum foil and put it in the freezer, you would have been better off just throwing it away now. Because that's what happens. The reason I put things in quartz and and clear plastic is because if you can't see it, unless you're a different kind of person than I am, you won't eat it. You know what I mean? What do you think about that, JDB?
+
+[49:29] Yeah, I'm trying to think what I use for uh tin. I only use tin foil now when I color my hair. Yes, I would believe that. Yep. It looks really like you do your own coloring job?
+
+[49:39] Yeah, I do know. Yeah. And do you feel the quality is the same? No, absolutely not. I did it yesterday, and now the hair that's like the ends of my hair, it's like I've been combing it and it's like literally falling out.
+
+[49:53] Um because it's been bleached like four times. Uh and if you go to a real place, they only will they only will put the bleach on like the new parts of the they use like a brush, it takes like five hours. It's like a huge pain in the ass. Um but if you just slather yourself and in bleach and sit there with tin foil on your head for like 45 minutes, like your your hair will will burn off. But you know, it's pretty short, so I don't really care.
+
+[50:12] I can just shave it if the worst thing is. So Booker had his hair dyed like straight green, and we paid the full pri this is before COVID. We paid the full price to get it done by someone with talent. It's worth it. Yeah, well, she had this technique where she like put it in in such a way.
+
+[50:32] I don't know what she did, because I don't it's not my I don't understand how this works, but she did it in such a way that when it grew back, I mean obviously you're gonna see it, but it looked okay. She did some. Yeah, well they do is they like they like paint it sort of like in a gradient, so it like fades into the end. So it's not just like the sharp line when it grows in. Um so that's that's what they do.
+
+[50:55] It's like that's like it's actually like sort of like they like color your hair in a way that looks like it transitions back to your natural color. See what I mean? Like it is good. If you can pay for someone with the skill, pay for someone with the skill. You know what I mean?
+
+[51:08] Yeah, definitely. Oh, the uh the Gregorian monk. No, no, why? Friar tuck? You're gonna shave the top ball and leave a little red?
+
+[51:20] Yep. Yeah. I would I mean why not? Yeah, you should do it. Yeah, but like I mean, quarantine's the best.
+
+[51:27] And if you do that, can you also get the the line the line beard that runs from where you're still? I don't do I don't do facial hair, sorry. I'm trying to get my facial hair removed, so that's a deal breaker. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[51:40] How long does that take? Lasers. I've gotten four treatments so far. Oh my god. Oh my god.
+
+[51:45] So can you let it just grow where they haven't treated it? I would love to do it. No, they'd like they basically it's like the it you have to do it like a bunch of times, and it like you have the hair grows in and the laser zaps the follicle, so it like the hair itself heats up and then kills the follicle, and you have to do it a few times because their follicles aren't all active. Um it's not like today I do the upper left side. No, no, they do the whole thing, it takes like 20 minutes.
+
+[52:07] Oh my god, I would have loved it if it was the other way. That would be cool. And then you could just grow these patches. It'd be like half your face has facial hair and the other half doesn't. Well, but then if you were like committed to the mutton chops or something, you could just be like, I would like permanent mutton, I would like it to not grow in anywhere that's not mutton chop.
+
+[52:23] I think you can do that easy. You can request that. Okay, so uh are there people because everyone like it's the it's the under beard that is the biggest pain. The neck is the worst. Well, I went in, I went in and I'm like, can you just take the hair off my neck?
+
+[52:34] And they're like, you might as well see your whole face. And I was like, sure. So they they they upsold me real real hard. Yeah. So how much extra is it for the whole face as opposed to insane?
+
+[52:46] That's why they were like basically you're here, you're already doing it, and it's an extra like 10 minutes, like of just like they just go beep beep beep beep all over your face. And then like the whole thing takes like maybe 15 minutes because your face is relatively small. Does it make that noise? It actually does, kind of. And it's like a little snap.
+
+[53:02] Ooh. Yeah. It like hurts a little. Like my my the person who does it is like, you like this a little bit too much. And I'm like, I thought results.
+
+[53:10] Like, come on, do it. And does it work equally for if they can do it to any skin complexion? I think it works better if you have the higher contrast between your skin and the color of your hair. So I have very pale skin and I have rather dark chestnut hair, so it works particularly well. But I think it's different.
+
+[53:26] These if different frequencies of light depending on your skin color. So are you gonna get your hair lasered into a fryer tuck? That's a commitment. Yes, sight on scene permanent tuck. Yeah, perma tuck.
+
+[53:45] I would like I think we should take up a collection with the cooking issues crowd to get JDB with a perma-tuck. Like that would be amazing. I would love I would love to see that. Basically, this male accelerated uh male pattern boldness. I mean it looks different.
+
+[54:02] You want the edge, you want the sharp edge. It's a sharp edge and it's real full all the way around. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing. That's why it's different.
+
+[54:11] It's like it's it's a different look. Only a young man can pull off bangs type thing. You know, like it's amazing. It's a it's definitely definitely a young man's haircut the full tuck. I would pay, I would pay a hundred dollars to see Nastasia rock the tuck.
+
+[54:28] Hundred dollars. $100 does not seem like enough to make that happen. It doesn't sound like a lot. I'm saying what would be the price to make that happen? I'm just curious.
+
+[54:37] I don't know. I guess a million. Million. See, this is how we get in this guy. Nastasi and I get into so many arguments like this, because she'll come up with a number that's just like so like.
+
+[54:48] Okay, we're not gonna family show, but like any disgusting thing, right? She'll ask me what a family, but not a family. I don't know 30 grand. What? Why is it a family show when you talk to me, but not a family show when John talks?
+
+[55:04] Technically, it's a retroactively a family show for John. I have every utterance of a swear word uh timestamped, and it will not exist in the final thing. No, but what I'm saying is is that like we the actual subject matter is not appropriate. I don't know what you're gonna bring up. I do, and let's not go there.
+
+[55:22] Any number of unpleasant things, we're like, how much would it cost to get you to do blah? Right? And for me, my number's always like what, Stas? Way lower. Way like way lower.
+
+[55:34] And my thing is is that like someday I hope that we're I don't want to do this because you don't want to walk to someone who doesn't have money and offer them money to do something bad, right? That's that Robert Redford movie. But it's like it's like I feel like if someone was actually to offer that Nastasia's number would actually be lower. If someone actually showed up with the wheelbarrow of money, I don't think it would be a million dollars. I think if someone showed up with a suitcase with 80 grand in it, you'd be like, yeah, I'll go tuck.
+
+[56:04] Well, the nice thing with the tuck is that I think you could basically cover if you have long hair, you could cover the tuck with the remake. And just put it in a ponytail. Well, he we have a point tail at the bottom, so it's uh so it's like a rat tail fire chuck. So it's an allagher haircut, it's not a gallagher, it's tucked. Don't bring up Gallagher to me.
+
+[56:25] Oh, I hate him so much. And Mike loves putting on a Gallagher like clip on YouTube, and it's I hate it. I hate it. It's the worst. Aerodical bliss ruined by Gallagher.
+
+[56:40] I feel compelled. We're not that far from the end of our time. And the chat is like a wash in uh just speedy theories. Okay, well, listen, listen, listen. Alisio wrote in on Instagram with I and this, by the way, thank you, because uh I was looking it up last week, and I think it was so for those of you that didn't hear the Juspeedy story.
+
+[57:03] We talked about it on our 10th anniversary episode. We talked about it before. It's the pastry that I've never gotten to eat. Everyone that planned the wedding is dead. Uh I can't figure out my stepfather doesn't know really what a Juspiti is, and he was the and my mom, they were the ones that got married.
+
+[57:18] I never got to taste it, thanks to my crazy uh dead grandparents and the motorhome and the parrot and the two dogs, and what I didn't mention is that. What are you talking about? This is the just being just gotta listen. Go back and buy them one episode. You just gotta listen to the last episode.
+
+[57:35] Yeah, one thing I'll say is that I've had to miss the Juspiti at the wedding, right? That I've been hearing about for months, that this was the only pastry that you ever needed to taste. And when my grandparents made me leave the wedding early before it was over, who does that? Who makes you leave your own mom's wedding before your mom's wedding is over, right? Assuming that you know you're alive at your mom's wedding.
+
+[57:56] Um so, and then we drove, drove to make it to back to my house in Mount Kisko and parked the motorhome in the driveway where not then, but later on it would live for three years, where my grandparents lived in my driveway, which is a true story. Um they didn't have the keys to the house. So I just had to sit in the driveway in that motor home for like a day waiting for you know my mom and my stepfather to come give us the keys. Anyway, just speedy. So Elisio wrote in, I guess it's Alizio.
+
+[58:28] Uh, uh, hi Dave. Just listening to the podcast and wondering if uh the pastry at your mother's wedding is uh Sosa Sospiri. How do you pronounce this stas? You see this, Sospiri? I share it with her.
+
+[58:40] S-O-S-P-E-B-G-B-G-B. I R I. This is what I instantly heard. My parents are Italian and speak dialect, and a local bakery sells these, and S O S P I R I, Italian wedding pastry filled with uh a lemon thing. This has to be it.
+
+[58:59] Before the next best guess was uh Zeppelita uh uh Zeppelina uh San Giuseppe, right? But this has to be it. I think you have solved it. I think this is the answer. So now I just have to find someone in New York who makes it.
+
+[59:14] Chef Joanna was in on the chat and said this. I was listening to the 10-year anniversary podcast and realized that you may not have seen my previous reply. Oh, it's the same person. Okay, yeah, it's previous reply. Yeah, she's that's her that's her theory.
+
+[59:27] Perhaps bastardize the way that Capacola becomes gabagul. Oh my god. Don't get it. What's our what's our favorite stuzz? Uh well calamari, right?
+
+[59:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's my favorite. Like then they first of all, San Gennaro feast, like one of the only good things about COVID is that that didn't go on this year. Like that I hate that feast so much. It's in September, so I could still have time.
+
+[59:55] What? It's in September, so I could still have time. Anyway, like I hate it. I hate it. Um there's another person with a Connecticut theory, though.
+
+[1:00:08] And I mean this one sounds better, I think. But here we go. Uh is it possible that the speedy pastry was was or generic reference to a pastry from Gispina's Italian bakery in South Windsor, Connecticut? N I don't know, but no, this is more Boston, and I guarantee you that uh Arcangelo Adonizia Arcangelo Adonizio, the butcher from Boston, did not go to South Windsor, Connecticut to get his pastries. That sounds good.
+
+[1:00:37] Um but the now I'm pretty sure that this is correct. This uh this uh spirit thing is correct. But San Gennaro's like yeah, Don de Barry needs to run. Oh, well, John, uh thank you for for coming on and go check out drink what you want. Uh his his new book.
+
+[1:00:58] Can I run through a couple of questions or no? Because I have answers to all the questions that I have. Questions for me? No, no, no, no. These are just questions that you could weigh in on or not.
+
+[1:01:06] No, John, you can yeah, you you can go and it won't be a good one. I'm getting I'm getting kicked out of my house for the afternoon for some work. So I believe that. Alright. Well, anyway.
+
+[1:01:18] Thanks for watching. All my love. Uh check out his book on uh fine fine books selling platforms. Uh do you have a particular place you prefer people buy it or just Amazon? Uh Amazon's probably like my fourth choice.
+
+[1:01:31] Um you can just uh go to like Penguin Random House and they actually have like a whole smorgasbord of vendors where you can do like they'll help you find like independent bookstores near you. So just search search for drink what you want, John Deberry, and then it should it should pop up. Yep. Thank you for uh coming on. Yeah.
+
+[1:01:52] All right. Oh, before you go, what are you gone? No. So your your daiquiri, your classic daiquiri, two, three quarter, three quarter. Do you actually do that or do you shy the lime up when you're making it for yourself?
+
+[1:02:04] I did the lime up. Yeah. Okay. And so I sh I don't shy the lime up, I shy the sugar down. And also like older I get, the more I come closer to a half half.
+
+[1:02:16] Well, obviously for gin stuff, I'm half half, not three quarter, three quarter, but even on the daiquiri, I shade the stuff down now. Like, are you changing as you as you I mean, you know, you're a lot younger than I am, but are you do you change as you as you age or no? No, I mean I think I kind of like having the sugar bumping the um the lime up rather than putting the sugar down because the sugar is that's a nice like texture to it, and then it gets the dilution, whereas it can just be a bit hot if you're lowering the proportion of non rum ingredients in it. So I just like to keep the volume up. Right.
+
+[1:02:52] Whereas your whereas your margarita recipe is considerably drier. Right. You prefer a drier margarita. Yeah, I'd say that's true. And it's because it's got a lot more going on, you know, with like the cursor or the triple sec or whatever you're using um in the agave, so it's just has a nicer um like to me the balance is different.
+
+[1:03:14] I feel like a Dakar is supposed to be chewier. All right. All right. But anyway, thank you so much for coming on. And uh Matt, do uh do I have a second to uh rip through some of these questions?
+
+[1:03:25] If there's anything that's very time sensitive, do that. Save the rest for later. This episode is brought to you by Dashable, an app created to help you find deals, discounts, and coupons for local businesses in New York City. Dashable will help you find the deals worth dashing for in a variety of categories, from food and drink to art, health, and pets. Support local and save money when you download Dashable today.
+
+[1:03:52] That's D-A-S-H-I-B-L-E. I'd like to see what Dave considers time sensitive with these. Well, no, are they do they have a normal thing? A wedding, etc. etc.
+
+[1:04:12] What what it like John, do you remember any being specifically time sensitive? No, no. Dave Foster did send us a bottle of uh Idaho spring water in a Perrier thing. I did get a hold of it. It it was delivered.
+
+[1:04:24] Uh, but I wanted to wait until we were all together to taste it. Does that make sense? Mistaz, you want to taste it, right? Yeah, we still have lemon cello to taste, but I don't know when I'm ever gonna see you. We should do uh like a socially distanced but all together like thing.
+
+[1:04:40] That would that even work? What is what is thing? Yeah, what is thing working? Radio show. Like we're all yeah.
+
+[1:04:48] Yes. Like of course. So we could all talk into our own mics, it wouldn't get confusing. Or I guess we do it in the radio show. We do it in the studio.
+
+[1:04:56] Yeah, it probably would end up not being live live, but yeah, we could do it. We could do it in uh we do it in Connecticut. Yeah. I have a couple calls on pressure cooking. I'll get to Cess uh next time, I guess, because that's gonna take a long time.
+
+[1:05:10] Uh Matt Hall writes in uh I've heard Dave state a preference for non-venting pressure cookers. How do I tell if my pressure cooker is venting or non-venting? Thanks. If it goes or when it's using its venting. The Kunricon only does that when you've really jacked the pressure higher uh than you are uh supposed to.
+
+[1:05:33] Um uh Tyler Lynn wrote in uh about the HVD A57, says uh we actually bought the HVD uh waffle iron like you and even brought it through my brother-in-law. Uh I saw you said you could swap it from one ten to two twenty. We bought it as a one ten and are actually interested in changing it now to two twenty. Do you have any idea how to do that? Also, your recipe is amazing.
+
+[1:05:54] We've tried a few, and yours is easily the best. Well, thank you, Tyler. Um, you gotta call the guy who you bought it from, who I will just refer to cryptically as Ray Waffles. Now the problem with Ray Waffles is Ray Waffles, as we say in the trade, got the COVID, and he wasn't he was uh kind of sick. I haven't spoken to him since, but my brother in law has.
+
+[1:06:14] But uh get back in touch with Ray Raffles. He can he can do it for you. I hope he's okay. I haven't spoken to him since um all that stuff went down. Um I guess the rest we should yeah, one more.
+
+[1:06:27] No, no, no. No, no, no. When we talk popsicles? All right. Alright, Aaron.
+
+[1:06:31] All right. I'm gonna get to all your popsicle backpack, vacuum machine, roto vapping, uh stuff uh next week, I guess, because uh, but next week Nastasia is not gonna be on. So who are we gonna get who we're gonna get to stand in for Nastasia? There's an ice cream man, and John will be on. Oh, yeah, we're getting milk cut milk cult coming on.
+
+[1:06:53] Next week will not be the uh the next uh flower Armageddon uh episode. We're trying to schedule that for later on this summer, correct, John? Correct. All right. And Nastasia, on our way out, have you had any interesting cooking experiences this week?
+
+[1:07:11] Because I know that you've been trying to re ramp your interest in cooking. And someone wrote in actually, which we should have I should have said this before I I I let you have the last word here. Someone said, and I can't find it. Uh maybe John will remind me. Someone said that along with uh classics in the field, we should do a whole thing on cooking for one and trying to keep interest up when you're cooking for one.
+
+[1:07:36] But uh what do you what do you got? Ooh. Uh no, nothing this week, but this weekend I might have something cool. Yeah. John, do you remember where that question came in from?
+
+[1:07:45] I think that was Devin Patel, the pasta troll. Oh. I'll read that then on the way out, and then we'll leave you guys thinking this. This is Devin, the pasta troll. I hope everyone is staying safe.
+
+[1:07:58] I write to you because I want to make a request. Can there be a new segment on the show, like classics in the field for cooking alone issues? I often wonder how much pasta sauce is the right amount to make for oneself, or how many days can leftovers stay in the fridge and still be non-toxic. Uh, and last but most important, is it okay to eat out of the pan you just cooked the meal in, including dump meals? One stop pan, am I right?
+
+[1:08:20] Or maybe uh tips for the budding home cook, like salt your tomato slices or slicing an onion with a butter knife for no tears. Much appreciated, Devin. Oh, Stas. Before we go, so I think this is something that maybe you could take on. And I think it's a lot of it's also just maintaining interest when you're cooking for yourself, right?
+
+[1:08:37] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, every day it's like, oh, I gotta cook dinner. But do you eat directly out of the pan? I'm having a very positive outlook on it now.
+
+[1:08:46] I like that. Can't wait for dinner. I like that. Well, because that's gonna be helpful to make you feel better all around, isn't it? If you feel better about like your daily routine, isn't that make it better at all?
+
+[1:08:55] Yes. Do you eat right out of the pan? No. What? Doesn't that doesn't seem like a nostalgia thing.
+
+[1:09:03] No. Well, I'm just asking. This is the question, one of the things Devin wanted to know. So you don't eat directly out of the pan. To me, eating directly out of the pan is one of the big payoffs of cooking for one.
+
+[1:09:12] Wow. Okay. This is a different mental attitude. Nastasia, Matt, a little bit more of an adult. No, likes to eat off of a plate.
+
+[1:09:20] It's really hot. Yeah, the carryover heat's gonna mess up what you've got in the pan. Wow. And also then, like, do you have to stand like where are you sitting with this? Are you standing over the stove eating?
+
+[1:09:33] Yeah, yeah, I probably didn't probably didn't move very far. And the carryover heat, screwing up the like what I've done is exactly the kind of thing I don't care about when I'm cooking for myself. It's true, and if you just eat it quickly enough, it doesn't matter. Maybe we'll end with this Nastasia's story. See if she remembers this.
+
+[1:09:50] But I was on the phone with her, and she almost punched herself in the face because she became so debased cooking by herself that she made one of the first, one of the biggest fundamental prep errors ever. And she was like, What am I? A useless rookie? I should jump into the freaking sound. Do you remember what you did, Stas?
+
+[1:10:09] Yeah, I cut I cut the onion before I cut the strawberries. Oh on the same board, right? Yeah. People. People.
+
+[1:10:21] And like you what I love about, and this is why Nastasi and I can work together, because instantly she's like, why am I breathing? This is ridiculous. Yes. No, well, I had people coming over, so it was like major major blunder. Well, it's probably what saved you.
+
+[1:10:40] Like if you didn't have people over. True. Are your boards wood or plastic? Wood. Do you do the same thing I do?
+
+[1:10:48] I stick it in the sink and I sit there and I scrub it down and then I put my nose right against it and scrub and nose, scrub and nose. It takes so long to get that onion out. No, I don't do that. I don't do that. Yeah.
+
+[1:10:58] And remember, if you use a relatively porous knife like a carbon steel knife, and you make the mistake of cutting onions, not only will you get that weird color on the onions, but that onion flavor will stay on your knife for a good long time. Am I right? Am I right? Anyway. You want to just take care of that segment?
+
+[1:11:20] You want to be the cooking for one person? Can I think about it since this is the first time I've heard of it? Or should I? Of course you can think about it. Okay.
+
+[1:11:29] I don't know. But you know, we have two weeks, so if you want to do it, we'll do it. If you don't want to do it, we won't do it. Alright, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:11:42] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:11:57] You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:12:19] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Vertera Dinnerware. Learn more at Vertera.com. That's V-E-R-T-E-R-R-A.com. Time for Lunch is a new podcast from HRN for curious young eaters, where we focus on the serious questions. Aren't chickens tiny dinosaurs?
+
+[0:23] We get to know our favorite foods in unexpected ways. We just like cheered like you would cheer for your classmate when they're round in second base in softball. And we just like peach, peach, peach, peach. Yay, thank you, bitches. Learn some new recipes and jokes.
+
+[0:39] What does a boxer's mom put in his lunch? A knuckle sandwich. And load up on fun facts. Experts estimate that there are between one and two thousand types of insects eaten around the world. So roll up your sleeves and dig in.
+
+[0:58] Subscribe, time for lunch on your favorite podcast app so that you and your favorite young eater can catch up on the whole first season. New episodes of season two out each week. Corona time on the Heritage Radio Network. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in Stanford, Connecticut by the sound. How you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:32] Yeah? Yeah. I didn't think I was gonna have you on, so I'm I'm glad. I feel like this is a bonus to have you on because we, you know, I thought you weren't gonna be on today, but that's great. We have uh as usual, John from uh the Booker and Dax Customer Service Representative Extraordinaire.
+
+[1:46] Uh how you doing? Doing well, thank you. Uh and uh special guest, uh Ed Cornell from uh Milk Cult. Where does the word milk cult? Like in what sense cult?
+
+[1:57] Like cult like Kool-Aid, like cult like Jonestown? I mean, I would there I think there's a bunch of like much better things you could reference than both Kool-Aid and Jonestown, but you know, you can go with that if you want. I mean, are you familiar with the fact that at Jonestown, the vast majority of the people actually were drinking Flavor Aid because he was so cheap that he didn't want to buy the on-brand Kool-Aid? Well, of course. I mean, like in your final days, you do have to pinch pennies.
+
+[2:26] But that's the exact opposite time from when you pinch pennies. Like if you know you're going out, just buy the Kool-Aid. You don't buy the flavor aid. That's why the the Haley's uh comic guys got new kicks before they went out. Oh, yeah, they got the outfits, they got new outfits, they got nice matching everything.
+
+[2:45] They, you know. They found them with like matching Nikes on. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[2:50] That was sad. They were all sad. So not that they were all sad. So not that kind of cult. Yeah, no, but you know, like, you know, ice cream cult, you know, obsession and more like cult, like cult film.
+
+[3:04] Yeah, I mean both. You know. Yeah. It's like how long have you been doing the milk cult in DC? Uh I've been doing it about between seven and eight years.
+
+[3:16] Um, yeah, so doing about seven, eight years. And uh I actually started doing it about a year after I started listening to cooking issues. I was I was living in um Indonesia and kind of like listening to cooking issues every week. I think it was like right of the first or second year you guys started, and then moved back to DC, and I was working in construction and food and restaurants, and then started doing this as like a side thing, and then started doing it full time. Well, what kind of construction did you do?
+
+[3:45] I did home renovations for a bunch of years. Um, but then and like I well, I was a general handyman for a bunch of years when I was in college, and then home renovations and then doing restaurant build-outs. So in in everyone has their least favorite things when it comes to doing renovations. What's yours? Um my least favorite thing is probably electrical, because I can do enough of it to actually say yes to it, but then it just takes me so long that it um it ends up not being worth it.
+
+[4:20] You know, like plumbing, like I'll either say yes and do a good job or just completely outsource it. But I think over the years, you know, taking electrical work was just like, yeah, cool. Uh you know, it's like you you want to say yes, but then you just get yourself into a job that you just sort of should have subcontracted out. Yeah, I hate doing sheetrock. Oh, I mean, once you do enough of it, you can just rock it out.
+
+[4:43] I mean, yeah. I mean, I hate doing it like I don't get good at it. I don't like lifting those panels up. I don't like cutting the holes in the sheetrock. I don't like I don't like taping it, I don't like spackling it.
+
+[4:55] I hate sanding it. I hate through I hate taping tarps up to catch all the dust from the sheet rock. I hate doing sheetrock. I'm like, wait, hold on, but wait, I'm like, why are you sanding sheetrock? Not only is that gonna give you lung cancer, but you're just not supposed to sand sheetrock.
+
+[5:12] No, no, no, where you put the plaster up. Like you like, I'm not gonna doing that. I'm gonna think of Durac. Sorry, I'm thinking of Durok. Oh, yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:18] No, so like I put up the sheetrock, I tape it, I put that little line of the thing, and I always put in too much uh compound there, and so I have to sand it, and there's dust everywhere. I hate it. I hate it. I really do. Putting up ceiling, putting up sealing sheet rock is the worst.
+
+[5:35] I also hate any renovation of old paint crap where you can't take everything off and you have to paint that that pink stuff on that like that like plaster weld stuff. Oh my god. Anyway, uh enough of this. Uh we'll come back to all of these great things in a minute. Uh we wanted to get a couple of things out of the way.
+
+[5:53] So Nastasia, like uh often says, she doesn't have any like new uh food news to report. However, I consider what you did a couple of weeks ago food news. You uh you did you were living the you were living the coastal dream there. Yeah, I had Alexa and my friends Alexis and Reed over, and Reed is an avid fisherman, and he um used your poles, Dave, the ones that you have here. It's actually Dax's poles, but yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:23] Um and he caught a couple um porgies, I guess, and then we were eating those and the and the fishing line was in the water while we were having dinner outside, and then all of a sudden it started really pulling, and so he jumped up and star and reeled it in, and it was a huge it was a 28-inch um bass. What's the key what's the keeper zone right now? Do you even know? I don't really I don't know. 27 and 32, I think.
+
+[6:53] Because every year it's different, you know what I mean, depending on what the stocks are like, what the keeper length is, yeah. But strong, strong move, right in the sound, big striper. And you you say you just filleted that sucker and ate it, right? Yeah, right off my porch, too, which is like so crazy. It was so crazy.
+
+[7:09] I've never seen a fish caught or eaten one like that before. My stepfather, the reason that rods at your place is because Dax had expressed some interest in fishing. And my stepfather, the only things he likes, like wine, cigars, fishing, and being alone during the time of COVID. Because he he only ever fishes alone. He gets up at like zero in the morning, and he only he does exclusively surf casting, doesn't like going out on boats.
+
+[7:38] So you were living kind of like the best life Gerard could my stepfather could hope to live outside of the Cape. So nice. Yeah. Yeah. How'd it taste?
+
+[7:47] Good, great. Wonderful. Um it's cool to be able to cast from your porch. Were you up high or were you on the ground level? Up high, like not that high, but like three feet above the water, maybe.
+
+[8:00] But like you weren't on your second level. Oh, because you couldn't know. Because you couldn't get back to cast. You would be hitting the back of your of your like fake light. It's not a fake lighthouse.
+
+[8:09] That's not right. It's it's not a lighthouse building, but you would imagine it would be like you'd have to like go inside to reel it in. That'd be weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be no good.
+
+[8:18] Yeah, it wouldn't work. Anyway, very cool. Uh, very cool, very cool. All right, now bar thing. You're gonna talk about the bar thing real quick.
+
+[8:25] Oh my god. Oh my god. So Ed and John feel free to weigh in. And in fact, John knows more about this story than I do because he had the heart to read my email about it, and I didn't. But so Ed, do you have any outdoor seating right now with the milk coat?
+
+[8:41] No, so we don't do any retail, we do ice cream for a bunch of restaurants here. So a bunch of our restaurants have closed and some have reopened, but there is limited outdoor seating in DC right now. Are you but are you selling like are you in other words? Are you you're not doing any sort of home delivery to make up for the lack of restaurant business or we've done some like like there was a few weeks where we did some we did like a bunch for charity there was this bakers against racism thing they participated in and do delivery but like we've I mean we've tried to shut down as much interaction stuff as possible like we're just it was bad here about a month ago so we've just erred on the side of limiting stuff. Well so where are you now with that?
+
+[9:25] Oh I mean we're just still like you know most of our restaurant customers are shut down so we're just doing our grocery wholesale business with like a few restaurant customers left and almost no deliveries right now. But has the gr have the groceries made up for the lack of restaurants? Yeah we I mean we had a significant jump this year anyways but like our typical April sales were like three times what they were last year in grocery channels. And so the fact that the restaurants went to almost zero was like it like it didn't affect because the groceries were so far up? Yeah but like we're I mean there's very few other businesses that are like ours in that so it's like I mean it was it happened to be beneficial for us but like we're very we're the one of the very few people who are in that situation.
+
+[10:13] Right because I know some people who I don't know them personally but like I use them like people who are wholesale only and who like they don't really distribute to in other words they're they're restaurant distributors only and they're hosed. You know what I mean? So they've got there's a couple couple people down here in DC who are that, and they have essentially shut the doors of their business until further notice. Well I know some of them, like I know some of our suppliers up here now do deliver to home. So you like, and what's funny is is that they only chefs know to buy from them.
+
+[10:44] So because you know, like they're the only so like I know like uh Baldo ships. Yeah, Balador opened up for home delivery down here as well. Um but I mean I don't know, like I don't know how whether that's actually doing anything for them. Um whatever the Japanese supplier, what is it, MTC, whatever that we're I forget the name of it, but like where we get the ishiri, they're doing home stuff. At the very least, they're at least moving product that would have spoiled at the very least.
+
+[11:14] Yeah. Yeah. So but for someone who has an actual grocery store distribution, you're saying it's it's it's workable. Yeah, because we are we're in like about a hundred Whole Foods between Ohio and Connecticut and DC, and like that's probably the bulk of our single channel sales. What kind of a pain in the butt is that to deal with the Whole Foods?
+
+[11:32] You don't have to say, I tell you what, I tell you what, because we go through a distributor, I just I almost never talk to them except in unless they ask us for something. And I just take a really, really big hit, but do volume, so I don't ask myself a lot of questions. So presumably though, you have to have like the the hyper clean labels. Like you there's probably stuff you can't use that you would like to use, but you can't because of their dumb label rules. I'm not saying they're dumb, but they're stupid.
+
+[12:01] It's it they're arbitrary, is what I'll say. Some of them are arbitrary, some of them make a lot of sense, but some of them are very arbitrary, and I've been working within that framework for the past four or five years, anyways. So you know what? Like, I just it's just a cost of doing business. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[12:17] Nastasi and I haven't dealt with them since they got bought, right? Stas, all the stuff we did was pre-Amazon. Yeah. Can you imagine having to deal with a combination of Whole Foods and Amazon? Oh, yeah.
+
+[12:28] We would just become, we should just become an Amazon employees at that point, you know. Oh man. Yeah, Nastasi and I almost for a minute, we almost had a soda business and we almost had a snack food business. And then we just I forget we were just like sitting in that in that kind of like Eldritch Street hellhole, and we just kind of looked at each other and we're just like, nah. Right?
+
+[12:54] Yeah. Yeah. We like like we looked out how many years we would have to like do stuff that we weren't interested in at all. And then be like, at the end of that, we had like a 30% chance of doing well. And we're like, nah, right?
+
+[13:13] Isn't that how it happened? Yeah. Yeah. It was not gonna make us any money for like yeah, a long time. Yeah, years and years and years.
+
+[13:21] Like you have to like, because in the snack food business, it's not like one or two widgets you need to sell. It's like a jillion widgets. And like good good luck co-packing on snacks. So for those of you that don't know, you come up with an idea, and unless you're big, you have to then convince somebody else to make it for you because you don't have a million dollars to buy all of the extruders and all of that. You don't have the the trucking, the warehousing, you don't have the uh the um the fill pack, you know, the the weigh and fill packaging with the with the plastic sleeves that can you know purge with getting you don't own any of that stuff, and neither can you.
+
+[13:58] And so you have to find someone else who's willing to package your stuff to your specifications. Then you have to jump through the hoops of getting your labels right for someone like a Whole Foods if that's the route you're gonna go. And Nastas and I were just like, the hell with this, right? I mean, yeah. Anyway, yeah, I work with a bunch of people who are in that position.
+
+[14:16] And like my friend Katie, she used to be, she used to work at Roberta's and Blanca, and she's started co-packing in New Jersey, like uh like a plant-based and plant-based food stuff. I'll shout her out here, Keats Co. And um, she just transferred to a cobacker in New Jersey, and like, yeah, she has to do an insane amount of numbers before anything comes around. Yeah, and it's just a it's a daily slog with that stuff, you know what I mean? And then, yeah, it's an insane number of numbers.
+
+[14:43] I remember once we uh we found a co-packer, I don't know if you remember this, Nastasia. We found a co-packer who would kind of do what we want. And the other thing is that like for us, like we were doing stuff that wasn't exactly like what everyone else was doing, obviously, because that's the kind of idiots that we always are. Uh I'll try to find it before the episode is up, but uh Jack Schram, uh, existing conditions, Jack Shram, said that my memoir should be uh titled, like uh the the best thing no one asked for. Right?
+
+[15:14] Because like we make these things that are things that no one has asked for, and we try to do as good a job as we can at it, but if you make something that no one's asked for before, it's a pain in the butt. So anyway, we found this person to make the stuff, but then remember this? He's like, I can't even turn the equipment off and on for less than two tractor trailers full of stuff. And again, that would have like like quadrupled the amount of physical space that we had rented in New York. It was a nightmare.
+
+[15:41] Nightmare. You know what I mean? Where do you guys make your stuff? We manufacture out of uh like a like a shared kitchen space. Like we have our own pod of freezers and equipment, and we use off-site um storage for freezer storage.
+
+[15:57] So we have like somebody, a contractor come and pick up pallets of our product and take it to a distributor warehouse, which is in like there's one in New Jersey and there's one in Frederick that we use. But we manufacture everything from end-to-end ourselves, which is both really dumb and really awesome. And your but your batch or your continuous? Batch. We don't have the size to we might be at continuous in like two years, but like right now, like we just don't have that volume to justify continuous because it just like mixins and stuff working.
+
+[16:31] 500 gallons at a time. Right. In other words, like how much would you have to change your flavors and your styles if you went to continuous? A lot or not a lot? I don't think so.
+
+[16:40] I don't think a lot because you know, continuous technology is gotten a lot better, you know. Like continuous technology is probably just about as good as batch freezer technology right now, and you know, it's expensive, but like um even with variegants and everything, like you're pretty much gonna get the same product from continuous and batch freezers at this point, maybe not 20, 25 years ago, but um they're good now, you know. And what's your batch size? Batch size? We so right now, like our wholesale, we me and my business partner, we will produce, pack, and wrap like 2,000 ice cream sandwiches by hand over the course of two days.
+
+[17:24] Well, that sucks. Yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure your your your next nickel is gonna go towards making that thing being wrapped not by hand. Oh, yeah, we've looked at a flow wrapper.
+
+[17:36] Like like today after this. I'm just gonna we're just gonna go downstairs and package ice cream sandwiches for five hours straight. So are you in a parka inside of like a 20 degree Fahrenheit room? Like what are you what are you in? How are you wrapping these things?
+
+[17:50] We actually, so we we do we have like a really good system of going in and out of hardening cabinets and blast freezers where we get no product melt, but it took us years to figure that out. So we're going like we basically have like a really good routine where we hold stuff overnight in a hardening cabinet, and then so once it's cut and taken out, it's like at negative 20 degrees, so it can sit out for two minutes while we pack and then throw the finished product package back into a hardening cabinet. So it's been a while since Nastasia and I have had any of your ice cream sandwiches. But what what so refresh me on what kind of technology? Thin thin cook thin cookie, like bendable, like one is uh really basic vanilla ice cream on a chocolate chip cookie, like basically our version of a little bit better chip witch, but like a saltier, saltier square chip witch, but like not too big, but it's like you know, it's reasonably priced, like $3.50.
+
+[18:44] And then we do an avocado um ice cream base with a chocolate wafer cookie, which is kind of I mean, it's based on an Indonesian um uh apple cut chocolate drink, but I mean it's an ice cream sandwich, and then we're rolling out two new products this year, which are essentially like small, which are essentially our small versions of Klondike bars. What would you do for a Klondike bar? Exactly. Yeah. Avery, back to your story about the bar.
+
+[19:17] Well, I was like, let's finish this. Do you like Klondike bars, Nastasia? Is that your favorite ice cream? I like ice cream sandwiches. Do you like Klondike's better or ice cream sandwiches better?
+
+[19:25] Ice cream sandwiches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, when you make these ice cream sandwiches, are you are you doing Carvel style? Are you softing it onto the thing and then squishing it? Or are you like say cutting blanks and then layering hardened blanks together?
+
+[19:39] Carvel style. So we go out of a batch freezer into half sheets of cookies and then let them sit overnight and harden in a hardening cabinet and then cut them up. We used to do the other way, and it just um it just it doesn't get the moisture, you know, moisture management right, like essentially because our goal is to have a cookie that breaks with your bite, and you know, if you harden and then pack together, um, then the moisture transfer won't get a nice soft cookie. And I had one more thing, but Nastasi. All right, we'll tell the story and then maybe I'll think of it.
+
+[20:15] Oh, yeah, what's size? What's the way what size is your batch freezer though? How many how many gallons or what do you what do you measure in? Are you measuring in liters, quartz? What do you measure in?
+
+[20:23] Uh quartz, we use in Carpajani LB502, and we do like an anywhere from like four to sixteen quart batch. And so for a production running. How long is that in like 60 to 120 quarts over the course of a day? But like a 16-quart batch is a 16-quart batch is how many minutes on the freeze time? Oh, it's pretty short.
+
+[20:44] I want to say it's like if it I mean, depending on air temperature, it's like anywhere from like eight to fourteen minutes, you know. Dang. That's a lot of power. Yeah. Ours is a water-cooled model, so it uh runs a little bit faster than the air-cooled.
+
+[21:00] Yeah. They only I owned a water-cooled uh soft serve machine once. I had to hook it up to my bathtub. It was a nightmare. That was a complete nightmare.
+
+[21:08] Anyway, uh, all right. So here's the story. So, you know, see what you think. And John, fill me in when I'm wrong, okay? All right.
+
+[21:16] So Nastasi and I occasionally, when we're on the West 4th Street, New York City subway stop, which runs along Sixth Avenue. So for those of you that have never been to New York, you can't picture this, but it's kind of a it's like tourists are there, students are there, it's kind of garbage, right? Sus? Yeah. I mean, it's where my bar is.
+
+[21:37] I love it. It's great. Like, you know, I've been going there like my whole life, but it's not like, it's not like what people think of when they think of like great New York. Am I right? Yes.
+
+[21:46] Yeah. It does have a great dollar slice, which I've spoken about at length uh before. So, you know, I won't get into it again. But um, there is like every city, every place, every area within a city has like scammers who have their own like scams, right? So, like, you know, uh when I used to live uptown, there was the I don't have the money for gas for home scam guy, right?
+
+[22:12] Uh but here there's a scam that Nastasia, you said you had seen before, right? I was with you. No, no, before, like before that. Like you knew. But similar.
+
+[22:22] So like the first time we saw it, Nastasia saw it happen. It was just like scam. So like we're walking down the street, and it's crazy looking dude and crazy looking woman, right? Which is like like a technical, in other words, like they look like something's up, right? Is that a fair thing to say, Nastasia?
+
+[22:41] Yeah. They look like kind of like junkies, actually. Yeah. So yes. I don't know anything about their lives other than what we're about to tell you.
+
+[22:50] So what they do is is I think it's the guy, right? Has with them some sort of terrible, like, like, uh, like, you know that aluminum pan that a that like a Greek salad used to come in, or like when you got like a a takeout lasagna in an aluminum foil like Megillah with the with the plastic thing with the crimp edges. You guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:14] So walking down the street with one of these, clearly half eaten, clearly like found somewhere, right? And then dude will bump into someone who looks young or student-y or touristy, or otherwise with money, and will very visibly make sure that the that the food falls to the ground. Classic. Yeah, yeah. And then, like, they start yelling at the mark about I paid eight dollars for my lunch and blah.
+
+[23:52] You know what I mean? And so, like trying to get money out of this person, and Nastasia wanted to like go over there and and give them a piece of her mind. Did you not? I think I told the guy that they were scamming it's a scam as we walked past it. Oh my god, that's right.
+
+[24:06] I now remember. Nastasi walks by and like, and this is one of the things I love most about you, Nastasia, right? Is like at the box when you were screaming how much you were like hating what they were doing at the box. Nastasia will just she's not, you don't let leave it inside, right? You're just like, it's a scam!
+
+[24:23] It's a scam! Remember? Yeah, yeah. Don't pay them, it's a scam! Yeah, and I was like, love you, Stas, love you.
+
+[24:30] You know what I mean? And so then we went went to the bar. But get this, Daz. That dude did it to our bar, to our outdoor seating. He walked up to existing conditions, and by the way, you can go to existing conditions now, and today we're installing a tent, so you're not even gonna get rained on or sun done when you're outside, unless you want to be.
+
+[24:48] We have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven outdoor tables, all socially distanced. And hey Cuomo, that's our governor here. We actually enforce social distancing even though we're a bar. If you want to regulate social distancing, regulate social distancing, don't regulate what how much food I need to serve you when you're coming to the bar. Anyway, side point.
+
+[25:07] Sorry. Not a political show, sorry. Love Cuomo. Love the sausage and pep. You might disagree with me on this, but I I respect a good scam.
+
+[25:17] If I see a good scam going on, I would not interrupt, and I would just tip my hat. And if somebody has a good scam going, I tip my hat to them because they're just, you know, they're out there, you know, people are gonna get taken advantage of, you know, as long as it's not too aggressive. Here's why I'm gonna gut this dude if I ever see him again. He walked. This is egregious.
+
+[25:37] He walked up to our place, to the place where people are trying to freaking socially distance, trying to have some sense of freaking normalcy during COVID time, right? They don't have their masks on because they're drinking and they're sitting at a table with a cocoon around them. Like we've literally built like a planter around them to shield them from this. Walks in, does the salad trick to someone in our space because we have to have a sidewalk cut through, like you're legally, you have to have an eight-foot sidewalk cut through through it, right? Goes through the whole drop my salad spiel, gets rebuffed by Jack Shram, is like, get out of here, you scam oddist scumbag.
+
+[26:16] Jack doesn't talk like that. He's been on the show, so you can go to hear what he actually sounds like. The guy then flips out, de social distances everyone by approaching everyone, and then rips all of our plants out of our planters and throws them on the ground. Well, that's a little much. That's egregious.
+
+[26:28] That definitely falls in the egregious category. Any messing of somebody else's business is egregious. Going to any one of my guests and messing with them at all makes me really, really, really, really want bad things. What were they doing when he was ripping the plants out? What are you gonna do?
+
+[26:51] Like, first of all, like, you know, my bar is very anti calling the police on people, right? And, you know, we're also you know, what are you gonna do? Like, you also don't want to approach an unmasked, crazy, as you put it, Nastasia, person who looks like they have other issues other than the salad they've just thrown on the ground, right? I mean, like, what's the right answer? Were the plants edible?
+
+[27:21] He might have just been trying to pick a new salad. Yeah, no. Um, yeah. They were not, I think, like actively poisonous, but they were some sort, some sort of tropical or semi-tropical, monocot, leafy plant, uh inedible variety. And uh, I just want to like, what the hell, man?
+
+[27:42] Like, like, it's not hard enough already that I gotta deal with your with, you know, do your do your scam like to them after they leave. You know what I mean? On the street. I don't know. I don't even know how that scam plausibly works when your marks are seated.
+
+[27:59] How do they bump into them when they're seated? I think it was they were getting their drink and coming back to their table because the way it's set up is that we're not doing table service. Like you go up and it's like, or it's like it's like an old bank teller, so we have like the giant Spit guard, and the drink comes underneath the Spit Guard, or like the way that like those weird post offices from the 80s work. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like one of those things.
+
+[28:22] And so I think that they were coming back with their drink and it happened. And I'm sure that that person probably, I'm sure that the dude probably spilled the person's drink as well. John, was that listed in there or not? That was not listed in there. I didn't see that.
+
+[28:35] But am I getting this pretty accurately? Yeah, yeah, so far spot on. Oh my god. I just hate it so much. Although here's a scam, Ed, that you might enjoy.
+
+[28:43] Uh, in the early 80s, a friend of mine who lived in the uh East Village uh would, whenever he would do outdoor dining, there was a guy on his block, early 80s, who used to uh poop his pants, and he would make sure to poop his pants and like keep them real poopy so that he was a uh a malodorous like miasma of stench at any given time of B-O and poop and general filth. And what he would do is come right up next to people who were trying to sit outdoors and eat and stay there until everyone would go into their pockets and give him the cash to leave. So, what do you think of that scam? I mean, it's effective. Again, I think it's just not it's like what's the difference between doesn't make it okay.
+
+[29:35] What's the difference between that? I mean, like, I'd almost have more respect if they did it mafia style and they just approached the the owner of the restaurant before service and were like, listen, I am going to make it a living hell for your guests such that they will never come back to your business again, and you're never gonna be able to have any locals, and everyone's gonna say that it's a nightmare going to your place, or you could just give me uh like 25 bucks right now for the day. Protection against my smell, right? At least that would be some sort of like kind of like have some sort of thing. There's negotiation happening.
+
+[30:10] It's not there's not a hostage taken, it's negotiation. Right. Right. I mean, it's still wrong. I don't like any form of extortion, but it's like, I don't know.
+
+[30:18] What do you think, Stas? Yeah, I think it's awful. Awful. Yeah, yeah. I have scammed.
+
+[30:23] I would have a good scam story. All right. I would love to be with Nastasi when that happened, though. A friend of mine used to represent um the subway corporation and all their slip and fall cases, and they had like a nice routine of people who would always come into these subway locations and slip and fall and sue subway because they knew at the very bottom rate they were gonna get 5K for their first slip and fall, and then like $2,000 for every slip and fall after that until they hit like a number because uh the franchisees were all protected by Subway Corporate. They were they would knew that if they went into a subway, a sandwich shop that they slipped and fell.
+
+[30:59] Doesn't matter how it happened, they knew they were gonna get a certain amount of money. So like what's the number? Do you know what the number was? Oh, I think they were getting 5k on their first slip and fall, and then like two 2500 for the next two after that, and then after I get three, I think you get like three, and then judges after that wouldn't they wouldn't even hear the cases afterwards. So Stas worth it.
+
+[31:22] No, that is terrible. That's no, no, I'm saying, like, but like in this, would you do a slip and fall for let's say you really needed the money? No. No. How much?
+
+[31:34] Uh I just I wouldn't do it. It's it's embarrassing. That's embarrassing. Okay. So, like, it's not like the classic Nastasia million dollars on this one.
+
+[31:44] No, I you know, we like doing like more insane stuff. Yeah. And and as I always said, I'll do it for free. Um I mean, how much will you pay me to fall? Anyway, uh, all right, let's answer some questions.
+
+[32:01] Actually, Ed, we have a question coming up that uh that you might uh have some uh good good info on, and I will say things and you will tell me I am wrong or not. Uh not this one though. This episode is brought to you by Vertera. Impressively versatile, stylishly sustainable, environmentally disposable dinnerware from Fallen Leaves. Vertera is a mission-driven company focused on making environmentally responsible single-use products, founded in 2006 on the belief that every culinary creation deserves a beautiful, sustainably crafted foundation.
+
+[32:41] Vertera reclaims earthly discards like fallen leaves and tree scraps to design elegant, disposable dinnerware that elevates the look of food presentation. In short, a beautiful disposable plate that can go with your food to a composting facility. The team from Vertera recently made a huge pivot with their factories and started producing masks, gloves, sanitizer, and other PPE that food businesses need to safely reopen. Learn more at Vertera.com. That's V-E-R-T-E-R-R-A.com.
+
+[33:17] Trevor, I don't know. I thought we mentioned this last week, but I don't know. Trevor wrote in and said in 2015, uh I said that tilapia is best cooked in a garbage can. Does this method still hold up? If you were going to cook tilapia at all, yes, garbage can is as good a method as any.
+
+[33:29] And by that by that I mean throw it in the garbage and eat something else. However, I'm sure you could make some sort of like uh Nastasia. Do you remember when uh we did the Anthony Bourdain show and we made a tandoor out of a garbage can and a flower pot? Yeah, yeah. So that would be another good way.
+
+[33:48] Tilapia is fine if you don't actually want to taste a fish. If like, if you're gonna like, let's say you you were gonna, okay. Do you like uh Nastasia or anyone? Do you like that taco, that pre-made taco seasoning stuff? Yes.
+
+[34:03] Yeah, I do as well. I like it as well. I'm gonna go ahead and say, I like it as well. We have it in our house because Dax enjoys that flavor. I have compounded my own, and Dax is like, just use the taco seasoning.
+
+[34:14] Sorry, it's on like fine. You know what I made with taco seasoning the other day? This is off topic. Uh when corona hit, we went out and bought a bunch of frozen veg, and that frozen veg has been sitting on our freezer, like kind of not used. Uh and so I was like, you know what?
+
+[34:28] What the hell? So, like we had a bunch of cut okra. I think it was the only thing they had left, right? Cut okra, frozen. Toss that sucker, salt, pepper, little bit of taco seasoning, oil, onion, and a couple of tomatoes, and uh throw that in at like 450 for like 35, 40 minutes.
+
+[34:46] Good. Not so much that it tastes like taco, just a little bit. What do you think of that? Sounds great. No one cares.
+
+[34:52] No one cares. It's good. Uh and it's not too uh, it's not too uh slimy. Stas, what are your feelings on okra? Uh I don't really like it that much.
+
+[35:02] Because of the snot or just other reasons? Nah. What about fried okra, like like crispy fried where it's fine? Well that's fine. Yeah.
+
+[35:12] Anyway, so back to the tilapia. So if you're gonna take and drench something in taco seasoning, which is how we got onto this, and then you're gonna shred it up into tiny pieces, and you're gonna use like you're gonna put it into a taco with like lettuce and all this other stuff. You're gonna make fish tacos. At that point, do you really care what the fish taste like? You're not tasting the fish anyway.
+
+[35:30] You know what I mean? Then it's fine. In which case you should cook it in your garbage can tandoor. Not that tan I love tandoors. I don't mean that tandoors are garbage cans.
+
+[35:40] What I'm saying is is that Nastasi and I made one out of a garbage can and some flower pots, and it worked quite well. I'm ashamed to say there was one restaurant I worked at um where I was working the line, and we had uh fish tacos, and on the menu we put them as red snapper tacos, but we really just gave them tilapia. Oh my sleazy. Yeah. That's bad, dude.
+
+[36:00] Yeah, and charged them red snapper prices, obviously. Oh my god. Terrible! Yeah, it was really messed up. John, that's beyond.
+
+[36:07] That's that's freaking dishonorable. Yeah. I would, yeah, I'd agree. Like, I will take being a bad person before I'll take being dishonorable. Yeah.
+
+[36:19] Right? Stas, you know me, I'd rather be bad than dishonorable. No one was like, wow, this is not good. They were just like, yes, chef. I mean, we all, you know, told the chef that we thought it wasn't the right thing, or you know, me and the two other guys working there told him that we thought it was kind of a trash thing to do.
+
+[36:37] Um, but he didn't really care. He wanted to keep his food cost down. Wow. And this was the kind of chef who, like, the whole time while we're all prepping and like getting ready for service, he was out on his computer, like in the dining room doing who knows what, but definitely not anything helpful to the kitchen. It was a little frustrating.
+
+[36:52] Listen, I'm gonna go ahead and say people never do that. That is the worst. Even at home, don't do that. Like, that's why, like, I have a couple of lines. Uh, just a couple, right?
+
+[37:07] One is like I don't tell somebody something's vegetarian when it's not. You know what I mean? I don't I don't lie to people about what they put into their bodies and what you cook. It's crazy. And unless Nastasia's playing a practical joke on a close friend, I don't think you do either, right?
+
+[37:23] No, yeah, I mean that then they're not paying for it. They're paying for it in farts and funny, but they're not paying money. This guy, the same chef had also told me at one of the whole other places he worked. He did like a lobster ravioli, but he really just put shrimp in there. Oh, sorry.
+
+[37:42] Wow, uh, Matt. I mean, while you are correct. Wow. And that is as I have said, as I have said, one of the great words in the English language, and I hope I never have to stop using it because of the two Ks, right, Stas? Doesn't it sound great?
+
+[37:58] Yes. Remember when I called a cop that? Oh, yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:03] Well, no, you called him the real one, and then you switched it to COP, right? Like on the fly. You came up with it on the fly. Yeah. You're a sucker, cop, cop.
+
+[38:16] That's what you say. Like, you you literally, didn't he literally say what did you say? And you pulled that out. And I said, cop sucker. Yeah.
+
+[38:26] That's Stas for you. Uh, anyways, that is incredible. I'm still, I am still taken aback. Yeah. Anyway, but just goes to show.
+
+[38:37] Snapper, red snapper, delicious fish, uh, tilapia, not, and when you taco fy them, who can tell? Right? Yep. I mean, you're dumping enough acid and whatnot on that you're not gonna get if there is any um, you know, kind of dirty flavor on the tilapi, it's gonna get covered up and like you know, chemically leveled out by the lime juice, anyways. So, yeah, yeah, terrible, terrible people.
+
+[39:05] You know what you should do. tilapia and something else that tastes like dirt, like beets. Like, what if we did a tilapia beat thing, stuff? Bad, really bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:16] All right. Uh all right, we we did Devin Patel's uh thing last week at the end of it, right? Didn't we? Yeah, we did. Yes, we did.
+
+[39:25] Yeah, okay. Uh all right. So, Timothy Helmuth wrote in via email, and Ed, uh, I would like you to weigh in on this because I don't think we discussed this. I have some very uh you know clear thoughts on it. Let's see if you think.
+
+[39:39] Hey, cooking issues crew. Do you have any suggestions for improving the texture of popsicles made in a home freezer? Now, Ed, home, home freezer. I've been mostly uh been blending various fruits with a bit of dextrose and sucrose syrup. Um flavors are by the way, when you say dextrose syrup, what do you really mean?
+
+[39:59] No one actually has dextrose syrup. They have this stuff that is like has a dextrose equivalent, but it's uh we uh we'll get into it later. Uh flavors are why doesn't people who sell that stuff, why don't they just write the DE equivalent on it? You know what I mean? Like it, don't you find this frustrating when you're buying this kind of stuff?
+
+[40:18] Like, like like these syrups that are all different, they perform differently. So, unless you know the brand, the DE equivalent, everything about it. Like I stopped, I stopped. I we make our own syrups, so like I stopped buying, besides buying straight powders, like I just stopped buying everybody else's syrups because they won't like they like they're they won't show you how to use it. Like they just don't label it properly.
+
+[40:40] Yeah. Irritant, irritant, uh, and sucrose syrup. The flip back to popsicles. The flavors are great, but everything turns pretty turns out pretty crunchy with big ice crystals. If I bump the sweetness way up, they freeze smoother but not solid enough.
+
+[40:55] Uh, I know a better freezer would help, but that's not an option for me. Unfortunately, uh, not an option for me, unfortunately. I've considered uh ordering some isomalt, which I think would help the texture while keeping the sweetness down. Yeah, but it's not gonna help you because it's still still not gonna get solid. If you isomalt the hell out of it, it won't be sweet, but it also, if you should whatever.
+
+[41:13] Your thoughts uh on that idea and any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks for continuing making the show. Uh Timothy, so do you wanna hit at this? You want me to hit at this new comment? What do you want?
+
+[41:25] I mean, the easiest thing to do is to just pack your freezer beforehand with as much product of as possible the night before, so that your freezer's carrying capacity is like super super high. And then just do a salt. If you can put your pops, if they're in a metal container, that's best, but put them in a salt ice bath in the freezer, so the melting, the melting ice will just super rapidly freeze the pops. That's the cheapest and easiest way to do it. That's correct.
+
+[41:58] And because think about, I want you to think about it this way, Timothy. As you freeze slowly, right? Let's say, let's say you started slowly, you get one ice crystal grows, and then it starts to grow. That thing's gonna grow as pure ice. And what's gonna happen is that imagine like freezing orange juice the way that you did when you were a kid, is you have one section that's almost all ice with very little flavor inclusions, and then it's more and more concentrated as you go in towards the center of the of the ice cube.
+
+[42:30] And that's exactly what's gonna happen. If you don't freeze rapidly, you're gonna get large water crystals, and they're going to segregate a relatively syrupy section, and that syrupy section won't even be homogenous throughout the whole thing. So it's gonna be bad. Would you agree with this, Ed? Yeah.
+
+[42:47] Yeah. So rapid freezing is going to be one of your first answers. Now, you can also uh so sugar, right, is uh actually no, sugar will lower the one other thing you can do is you can do the jello brand pudding pop technique of pre uh light gelling your stuff. It won't melt down. If if melting down is important to you, it won't melt down as much.
+
+[43:14] But um, if you physically segregate the flavors and liquids into a light gel, then as it freezes, it will tend to stay relatively homogenous and freeze in place, and the crystals will tend to be smaller as well. Um, what do you think? What do you think about that suggestion? Hate it, like it. I like it.
+
+[43:34] They could also add more dissolved solids to their recipe. I mean, if they want to incorporate, like if they're vegan, if they want to incorporate pea protein or something like I know that a lot of popsicle makers right now are using pea protein, and it's you know, it's fairly neutral and like not gonna bug a lot of people. Um or if they want to just stabilize it in the blender, I mean, there's plenty of things that they can, you know, whatever stabilizer they prefer, whether I don't really like Xanthan, but like I don't know, Gore will work pretty well for what they're doing, and it's pretty neutral. Um, or just or just more dissolved solids. Well, and also they're not doing it commercially, they're doing it at home.
+
+[44:12] Yeah, so like the cost doesn't matter, right? I mean, like they could make a light fluid gel if they wanted. They could do it like a light agar fluid gel or better yet, a light uh what's it called? Uh Gelan fluid gel, right? And then, you know, and if you're only doing it like once in a while and you're doing it at home, you know, it seems like it's not that wouldn't be that difficult to do it or that expensive to, you know, to do as one-offs, uh one-offs at home.
+
+[44:40] Um so anyway, that's what I mean. The problem with adding so many solids is is it's never gonna get as hard as he as he wants it. You know what I mean? If you increase the sugar level or the dissolved solids, like he wanted to with isomalt or one of these other things, you you know, it's it's if you actually depreze decrease the uh the freezing point of it enough, then you're gonna get it's not gonna freeze as hard, wouldn't you think? Yeah, but I don't I don't think it's gonna be a that extreme of a um they're adding they're gonna be adding that much though.
+
+[45:14] I mean, just like start off with a little bit and see if it helps. Kind of that situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[45:22] Um all right. Tom Coate wrote in uh has been listening to our milling and stuff. By the way, we're gonna do another milling show soon. But Tom wanted to do a shout out to uh New American Stone Mills and uh Elmore Mountain uh bread because they make their own. I'm not gonna be here for that show.
+
+[45:41] On purpose, really? You can't tolerate it? Can't tolerate it. I won't can't tolerate bread? You actually like bread.
+
+[45:44] I do like bread. You still you mean like, all right, whatever. Uh we're gonna have like the the world's faux foremost scientific authority on uh whole wheat uh bread and milling, but Nastasi does not want to participate. All right, her choice. Um anyway.
+
+[46:07] Uh Ronaldo wrote in, Ronaldo Fori wrote in. Uh hello, I'm a stiller at a small distillery in South Africa, and I came across your oh wait, am I even supposed to talk about this? Alright, we'll talk about it. Um and I came across your projects while uh looking at the Harvard Food Science course. Uh I have a vacuum distillation setup at home, a roadov app that I built from scratch.
+
+[46:27] Uh well, kudos to you. It works quite well, but is wondering if you can provide more info about the peristaltic pump you use on the distillant side. Any guidance or information would be a great help. Thanks in advance. Ronaldo.
+
+[46:37] So, Nastasia, how should I deal with this? Since you know that everybody hates it when I go down a rabbit hole on peristaltic pumps. How should we handle this in general? Should we eventually do something like we did uh for uh the carbonation thing? Yes.
+
+[46:50] Yo, John, are people liking that carbonation video or what? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the people who want it are liking it. Yes.
+
+[46:57] And then the people who don't want to hear 45 minutes about the intricacies of carbonation rigs don't have to hear it. They're lost. So it's a I mean, I don't know. You should watch the video, Matt and then say that again. Oh, then come back.
+
+[47:12] I just no, no, no, I loop it during the day. It's like my wife's. Oh my god. Okay, just the the rant on tubes. I think if you if you could just condense that video to the the 15-second rant on tubes where I I lose my mind about PVC tubing with uh seltzer water, like that's pretty much the the whole thing, or the actual legitimate, no acting pure joy of that first glass of seltzer at the end.
+
+[47:39] You could edit that thing down to like five seconds. Dax. So if you say anything bad about it, you're saying something bad about my son, and we'll fight. I just wanted to know who had a sit through it. No, not sitting, standing.
+
+[47:53] Oh my god, it was also Stas, it was such a nightmare. Uh the two videos he shot, we hadn't set anything up, but like I just needed to get it done in his COVID time. So, like the poor kid, like whenever he had to shoot down, I was making him stand on a chair and hold the camera over things, and he's like, Dad, my arm, and I'm like, shut up! Hold it up there! You know what I mean?
+
+[48:15] Like, stop shaking, and like poor guy. But he did it with uh, you know, uh what would amount to a 15-year-old for zero complaints. I mean, for you and I, it would be complaining, but for a 15-year-old, pretty much zero complaints. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[48:33] And now he's ready to do the pump video. So this is great. Yeah, yeah. Um uh Brooke Hobtu wrote in and said, Hey, I found a suspiciously cheap vacuum chamber sealer and wondering if you've ever heard of the unit before. And the uh gives a website to it, it's less than half of what I've seen other units for, so it feels like it's too good to be true.
+
+[48:56] And I looked at it and it looks too good to be true. Um let me tell you, when you're looking at something, when you're looking at equipment, you never win. There's no winning in life. There is like various degrees of breaking even or losing. So if a piece of equipment costs $2,000, let's say, and you find one that is $200, that doesn't jibe.
+
+[49:20] So you can't, it's not gonna be the same. They have done something somewhere that it's not gonna be the same. So on this one, most likely it's the pump that's garbage. Uh I have to go take a look at it because I looked at it a couple weeks ago or when it when it first came in. But like there's you can go online now.
+
+[49:38] Are you are you guys familiar with the site? Bang Good? No. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[49:43] Yeah. So you go on Banggood and you can buy re on Banggood, you can buy retail for from like Alibaba style stuff. But keep in mind what you're buying is non-guaranteed stuff direct from the factory that is ripping off somebody else. So like, you know, Nastasia and John and I work on a product for a bunch of years, like we get it manufactured, we try to do RQC on it, we bring it in, and then someone on Banggood will then knock it off without the QC, right? But also without the markup of having to pay for the years that we you know spent trying to bring it to market, and they'll sell things considerably cheaper from Banggood.
+
+[50:28] Now you're I have ordered some stuff there that you know where I don't know the you know the origin you know originators of it or who I'm ripping off. Like I've I've gotten some RGB very high powered uh RGB diode lasers off of them and other things, and you know, sometimes they work, eh? Sometimes they don't. Uh so like you can go on Banggood and you can buy a piece of equipment there, and it is like half the price that you would expect to pay for uh the equivalent uh thing, and yeah, it's not gonna work as well, it won't have instructions, and there will be QC issues, but you can get something that will work. Uh and this is the classic way now that people are buying things like uh sugarcane juicers, where there's no good supplier of sugarcane juicers in the US, right?
+
+[51:13] All right. Uh, but you can't do a tenth of the price because what that means is they're just not using anything even close to the correct components. Now, will it work for you? Maybe. You know what I mean?
+
+[51:26] Like, maybe you don't need a good enough vacuum, maybe you don't need the cycle time. Um, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't catch on fire. I know that uh Philip Preston bought an extremely cheap vacuum sealer once on um online as a distributor because he was thinking of distributing them, and then uh he put uh a bunch of liquid into the thing as a test, and it started smoking and caught fire. So it's like, you know, there's that. So again, it all it all depends.
+
+[51:56] Uh was that a good answer? Did I answer enough? No, yeah. Yeah, that seems pretty thorough. You have five minutes.
+
+[52:03] Yes. I I answered Matt Hall's questions about non-venting pressure cookers, right? Last week? Yes. All right.
+
+[52:10] Uh I will say though, Dave, why would you advocate for people to buy things off that Banggood website if they're crap, like if it's I don't know, like think about everything that we went through with a knockoff Searzals, you know, and you're just doing that to other companies. I'm not. I don't advocate ripping, I don't advocate ripping off people's intellectual property. There's a lot of stuff on Banggood where, where like I say, like it's not that there's intellectual property, they're doing like components like diode lasers, right? And so like you're like, I'm I've I I've only bought things like that off of them.
+
+[52:43] There is no real US source. You know what I mean? And it's not US, by the way. There's no there's no sort of like QC company backed source for it. So I'm not like I'm not taking away like one of the things that you'll notice on Banggood, and I don't buy those things, is anytime there's a successful Kickstarter, the people who do the Kickstarter, you know, um has to find a factory, and then that factory will often sell the stuff on Banggood before the Kickstarter stuff is even fulfilled.
+
+[53:15] What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seen it happen all the time. And no, I won't support that stuff. That is that's not a it's not cool, right?
+
+[53:23] Um because in the at the end of the day, that also um destroys innovation, right? You're destroying innovation by doing that. There, you know, um, and if any of you are going to manufacture stuff, you have to be real hardcore about your factories, making sure that they you have um documents in place to make sure that they don't steal your stuff, and that's kind of like a lot of what we do, right? Yes, is like making sure that they can't do that. Um that's why when we get knockoffs, like either someone's broken an agreement, which has happened to us, or they're just making it wrong.
+
+[54:01] You know what I mean? Like, well, the thing we're talking about specifically is I think, and Nastasia, you also believe that we know who did one of the knockoff that did an actual knockoff with our name on it. And it throws off this black dandruff because they don't know how to make it right. And yeah, no, well, I don't support that at all. But um, and in general, I think, you know, you should buy good quality stuff and um, you know, and use it for a long time.
+
+[54:35] But there's also, you know, the I need it once, I'm never gonna need it again, uh, diode laser problems. So I mean there's there's a place for both. Does that answer your question, John? Yes, that's fair. Thank you.
+
+[54:46] Yeah. Um this is from Seth in Fairfax, Fairfax, Virginia. Hmm. I don't know. Uh I have begun to take my backpacking meals more seriously and have begun to develop my own uh dehydrated recipes, which are far more economical, customizable, and delicious.
+
+[55:03] I generally do vegetable-based meals on the trail, but work in meat every few meals. My question is it universally recommended uh to first pressure cook chicken or buy canned chicken before dehydrating? Otherwise, it is notoriously hard to rehydrate. Since uh you were working on your miracle of moisture management book, I was wondering if you could share any insights into the safety or quality reasons this might be important. To achieve the highest quality dried chicken, I would have cooked sous vide.
+
+[55:29] Can you recommend preparation of other proteins for the dehydrator that are either bland to add into anything or a great flavorful addition? I'm thinking of tofu shrimp. Oh, dried shrimp is delicious because it's already been uh lean sausage, that would be awesome. Uh thanks, Seth. Uh I mean, uh any of you guys have any experience with this with the trail stuff?
+
+[55:47] What about you? Add anything? Uh no, mostly just mean dehydrating fruits, but like I don't know. I'm wearing to give people dehydrating proteins advice because you know, just I wouldn't know how to not make someone sick with that. Yeah, well, but think about it.
+
+[56:04] If you're dehydrating, you salt it, right? This is a time, time honored, a time-honored way to do things. The pressure cooking. Yeah. I yeah.
+
+[56:12] Well, the pressure cooking, though, on something like chicken, I think is going to accomplish two things. One, it's gonna kill everything, right? It's gonna kill everything. Um, and secondly, um, because it is going to break apart the fibers and it's going to uh let the um water get out better, I think you ha stand a better shot of it dehydrating relatively quickly and perhaps making it easier to rehydrate because of the damage that you've done to the tissue in the in the process of pressure cooking it. So a lot's gonna depend on how you want to dehydrate something.
+
+[56:48] So, like if you just kind of stir some protein in, you could like even get floss. That'll rehydrate relatively quickly as opposed to something like jerky. But the ultimate that you should do, and if you but if you have the money, I don't know what what you know, I don't know your life, right? But if you have the money, investing in and they have them now for a lot cheaper than they used to be and a lot easier to use. I forget the name of it, but freeze drying is amazing because when you freeze dry, you can cook however you want, right?
+
+[57:18] And then you freeze it, and then as it dehydrates, it maintains its um it's its physical shape. And because it maintains its physical shape, it has all that porosity, it's going to rehydrate that much better, right? Uh and so having done rehydrated uh meats and sausages and whatnot out of a freeze dryer, I can say it works really, really well. And most of the people who are doing high quality proteins um are using uh freeze drying. And so it's relatively uh labor-intensive, but I mean, I think if you are gonna do this, like as you say, seriously, and you have the money, it might be a worthwhile investment.
+
+[57:59] What do you guys think about that? No, no, freeze dried. I like freeze dried. You ever put freeze-dried stuff into uh into ice cream? No.
+
+[58:12] Have you ever have you ever done the Sam Mason trick of liquid nitrogen freezing things and stirring them in after the batch comes out? Yeah, like I have I have tried that. I don't know if it's worth the depending on what it is, I don't know if it's worth the effort to go and have just keeping liquid nitrogen on hand to do it. Can like just it's it's cool. It's certainly cool.
+
+[58:36] I don't know how much better something's gonna be. Well, I just like the chunks of of uh jelly, like those weird chunks of jelly he can get that way. You know what I mean? As opposed to a swirl, you know. Yeah, I mean, if you can get the same effect by like just like stabilizing something really heavily and then freezing it, I feel like, but uh maybe not.
+
+[59:02] I don't know. All right, so wait. So uh Jake Odlam wrote in and wants to know uh if I'm adding lime juice after carbonating a drink, why clarify the juice? Because otherwise you're gonna lose bubbles faster. Uh do a side-by-side test, and you will see that.
+
+[59:19] Now now for the rest of the time until they rip us off, we're not gonna do a classics in the air. What do you give us some ice cream stuff? You uh because before we went on the show, I said, I said, give us the pitch on milk cut cult and what you're working on. He's like, do you want the 30-second pitch or the 20-minute pitch? Well, now we're we're in between.
+
+[59:36] Do you have any other projects or anything you're working on? Anything you want to say about ice cream while we're while we're on the back end of our show? Oh, yeah, two things. So we're launching two new mini Klondike bar products in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast region. And they're called Dippy Boys.
+
+[59:53] They're like little snack-sized Klondike bars. And yeah, they've been working on them for like a year. Finally got all of our packaging and everything in. They'll roll out like end of August, beginning of fall. And that's our, you know, that's my dumb product placement.
+
+[1:00:08] Um, and the other thing for you go on. We pour we pour ice cream base the same way we would with our ice cream sandwiches, but we don't, we just pour it into regular molds and then cut it up on an air-powered cutting machine and then enrobe them in. One is enrobed in like a hibiscus, like it's a Macrut Lime ice cream enrobed in hibiscus with a hibiscus shell and uh an orange blossom candied rice bottom, and the other one is vanilla ice cream with a candied potato chip and chocolate shell. Now let me ask you this are you using like uh a chocolate and robing like a modified chocolate and robing machine? So we are just enrobing them like in a big batch right now, and we're probably gonna have to purchase an enrober sometime this fall because we're the volume we're gonna do is we'll just kill ourselves if we don't get an inrover like an like an in rover with a um with a moving uh trimor enrobing conveyor belt, yeah.
+
+[1:01:13] Those you ever used one? They're amazing. Yeah, they're awesome. They're really cool. They are amazing, but they're like 10 grand.
+
+[1:01:20] Watch that. They're like 10 grand. You never need to watch the intro to Willy Wonka again because you just watch it, you just watch the stuff flowing over the product. It's amazing. I love them.
+
+[1:01:29] So that. And the only other thing I want to plug is I found out this past year, somebody I was doing work for somebody else, and uh Cuisine Tech sells a sorbet stabilizer. Um, but they don't print that it's not vegan. I think it's creamidan, it's like 32 or 64, and I they've been selling it to a lot of restaurants, and they don't always print that it contains gelatin and some other animal-based stabilizers. And so for I guess that's for general people's knowledge, is there's nothing wrong with it, but they sell it as a sorbet stabilizer.
+
+[1:02:04] We've I've never used it, but I was helping somebody else who used it, and I was like, hey, you know, this has gelatin in it, animal gelatin, and they're kind of like, oh, and they just kind of so that's just for public information for people. A lot of people use creamadin. This the uh FCI used to use creamadan. Yeah, but it's not I mean it's great. I mean it works, but you know, like there's nothing wrong with it, but it does contain animal gelatin.
+
+[1:02:27] So for just for people to know. And they don't print it. Before we're done, so you're dipping with dipping forks, like with those little like like swirly looking things, or with the tines, like you're actually like old school doing it. Yeah, we're old school. It's there's so many things about our business that's horrible.
+
+[1:02:43] I mean, in terms of, but like, you know, when we have the money, we upgrade. So, like probably next two months we'll be getting a full and robing machine. I would not wish hand dipping on my worst enemy. Oh, yeah, it's bad. Do you do you do you have to put a wafer underneath it, or are you counting on the on the drip and then you get just you get a certain level of float when you put it down on whatever you're drying it on that size?
+
+[1:03:08] We have a we have a we have an okay enough, we have an okay enough way of doing it right now that like it just kind of works until we get a full enrober. Oh my god hand dipping oh Jesus now are are you using some sort of like homemade magic shell variant or is it actually like a straighter coating or like can you talk about the technology of the coating? It's pretty basic. We do a one-to-one we use Tho chocolate which I really love um and uh cocoa butter solids uh for the chocolate dip and then for the hibiscus um my partner worked on that recipe so it I think it's um I can't remember what we're doing for that but it's um it's a cocoa butter solids and um I can't it's vegan but I can't remember what we're doing for that because he's been working on that recipe but for a regular chocolate shell it's really simple it's just one to one um high quality dark chocolate and cocoa butter solids now whenever you're dipping something I mean like it seems like a lot could go wrong right because if your centers are too cold it will you'll have an issue with dipping but if you melt into your chocolate at all that'll cause lots of other problems. So is that a hard line to get right?
+
+[1:04:27] It's just like a workflow it's just like getting a good workflow going like having a large water bath large warm water bath going and and as long as we're working at a good pace it just continues to go okay um but like it took a lot of uh just like really really super frustrating sessions to you know, get things going well. So you messed up a lot of centers and messed up a lot of uh shell? Yes. Gigantic mess losing product. It's just nightmare.
+
+[1:04:54] Yeah, this is a a lot of things are actually like that. Like uh, do any of you guys remember Wiley uh Wiley Dufreyn's old uh like um fake egg? It was like a carrot something uh yolk and then like a coconut milk like white, and it was all it looked exactly like an egg. And he used to publish the recipe, people were like, it doesn't work, but it's like nah, really like the first hundred you make suck, and then the next like fifteen thousand you make are fine. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:05:24] Because you got to get into the zone of the production. There's like some there's some physical getting your hands used to it. So you're saying dipping the ice cream is not only is it not only a technical issue getting all the variables right and doing it continuously, but also just getting your hands used to the process so you know what you're doing? Yeah, I think it's actually more of a workflow because like the recipe doesn't change too much. It's just it's just movement and temperature control with your product, and then it's it's like what you said, it becomes easier when you're doing a thousand of them than when you're trying to figure everything out and just do um, you know, fifty.
+
+[1:06:02] Yeah, yeah. We gotta bounce. All right, so on the way out, I will say this. Uh shout out to the French Culinary International Culinary Center. Uh any anyone who is uh an alum or a former teacher, um, we said on air uh a couple of weeks ago that unfortunately they're uh you know, closing the you know, the curriculum and whatnot got bought by uh the Institute for Culinary Education, ICE.
+
+[1:06:28] Um, but they very graciously uh donated uh Eric Murning and they're very graciously donated uh their library to the Museum of Food and Drink. So what John and I will be doing tomorrow is driving a big old uh C and CNC. Uh for those of you that don't know, anyone who needs to kind of rent cheaply and brutally here in New York a truck. We where do we go, Stas? C and C.
+
+[1:06:54] Wait, you guys should stop by my place. We should talk to John about it. John, do it. No? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:07:01] And they can we turn it. No, I gotta talk to my fan. No, no, no, I'm not coming. We're packing up. Yeah, that's fine.
+
+[1:07:09] Yeah. Oh, that'd be the best. Stas can go look at the anyway. So we were we're taking the library up, and we just saw it was very it was it was sad seeing seeing like all that stuff getting broken down. Uh you know, Stas, you would have it would have been good for you to see it too.
+
+[1:07:28] Like it's a I mean it's still there. It's there on the it used to be like four or five floors, and they're keeping the the upper floor, but like where the library was and stuff is closed down, the amphitheater. Remember that bar, Stas that was from Lutes, that zinc bar that we used to serve all those drinks behind at events. So that's being donated to the museum. We're taking that.
+
+[1:07:48] Um so anyway, so it's good that we can preserve some of this stuff uh for the museum. But anyway, that's what John and I will be doing tomorrow, and may or may not be stopping by Stanford. Maybe we'll throw the rod in the water, see if we can catch some stripers. I'll tell you when high tide is, yeah. All right.
+
+[1:08:03] And uh Ed, thanks so much. Please check out where where can you buy these uh what are they called? Uh dipping boys. What are they called? Boy dipping books.
+
+[1:08:10] Tiffy Boys. Uh they'll uh they'll probably be at the um parks in New York. They'll be at the Parks Love Food Co-op, I'm guessing. They're a pretty good customer of ours. But you know, it's like um independent grocers between DC and Connecticut.
+
+[1:08:22] All right, so look out for Dippy Boys starting when? Uh September. They'll roll out. And and and you have it for the you have the vegan ones and then you have the milky-based ones, right? That is correct.
+
+[1:08:29] Thanks, man. So even though it's called Milk Cult, he's got all your vegan needs covered as well. Hey, you know, get to look after people, you know. Yeah, so milk milk written large. Milk in the sense of good mouthfeel, not necessarily comes out of cow.
+
+[1:08:48] Yes, correct. All right. Well, thanks for coming on. We'll see you soon. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:08:56] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:09:10] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:09:32] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I'm Lisa Held, a food journalist and podcast host, presenting Behind the Label with American Humane. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This week on Meet and Three, we bring you stories about how Gen Z is different from their millennial predecessors through the lens of food.
+
+[0:28] My knowledge of alcohol didn't really come from like butt-like commercials or like Project X. Yeah, and that's my gripe with the platform as well. Is that all these DIY videos, cooking videos, they're 20 seconds? What's one food item from your childhood that you wish you could have today? Dunkaroos, because they don't exist anymore.
+
+[0:48] Although the Dunkaroos Twitter was activated again a year ago, so it's only a matter of time. They've tweeted a couple times. It's pretty hype. Listen to Meet and Three, HRN's food news and storytelling roundup wherever you get your podcasts. So what is there in Darien other than a good fish shop?
+
+[1:43] There's a good fish shop I told them about. Yeah. Yeah. Like like they have like local fish, like you can get stripers and blues and whatnot. Yeah.
+
+[1:51] It's really good. But is it as good as the stripers and blues that you would get just off of your porch? Solo with no one here just by myself? No. You know, you gotta get in.
+
+[2:01] Like I said, you gotta get it. Like my stepfather, like is the only person who is actually happier during the COVID time because he still relishes his lack of interaction. Yes, all he does is fish alone. He has a wife, so he can choose to not be alone. But I'm not trolling you in the way that other people we sure remain nameless.
+
+[2:19] What I'm saying is is that he would prefer always to fish alone. So fishing alone is something that I can't kill them. I have a hard time killing them. You mean yeah, it like for those of you that don't know, and I would say, Matt, how you doing? Got Matt in the in his Brooklyn booth, Brooklyn booth right now or Rhode Island booth?
+
+[2:38] He's not going back to Rhode Island. I am going back to Rhode Island Booth, in fact. Now you're in the midst of packing, because it's for real this time. You're packing for how how long are you going? Until my lease in Rhode Island is up in May.
+
+[2:54] Mm, nice. Yeah. Rhode Island and the Providence plantations. Yeah, although she signed a decree or whatever taking that part off. Who?
+
+[3:05] The governor of Rhode Island said that there's it's no longer Providence plant. Oh, because of the word plantation. Indeed. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:13] Alright. Yeah. See, I don't keep track of the uh of the small the news from the smallest state, the ocean state. The new question is what's the new like who else has a secret long but slightly shorter than that state name? Because somebody probably took the mantle now for longest.
+
+[3:29] Well, what Rhode Island needs to do is just add some other bull crap to their name so that they maintain smallest state longest name. That's as a citizen uh activist. Uh, when I move there, I will I will petition for something. You're like, the only reason I moved here was because it was the small estate with the biggest name. And I like the Cohen brothers a lot, and that's the only reason I'm here.
+
+[3:53] They live in New York and LA now, and you don't even have the longest name. I'm out! I'm out. You don't even have the corrupt mayor of Providence anymore. I don't even know if he still makes his pasta sauce like he used to.
+
+[4:05] I mean, what's the dang point? You know what I mean? I have horrible news. He's no, he's no longer with us. He died?
+
+[4:11] Yeah. Recently? Seancey? A couple years ago. Oh.
+
+[4:15] Do you know who died recently? Very sad, is Wilfred Brimley. Who's that? Whoetas? Diabetes.
+
+[4:25] Diabetes. I'm Wilfred Brimley, I've got diabetes. Oh, oh, yes. Okay. You might know him from such classic movies as Cocoon.
+
+[4:36] Or such things as looking like uh like a bullfrog character in the real life and saying diabetes. Like, yeah, he just he's 80 something, so you know, he, you know, he he I'm not gonna say he went before his time. I'm just gonna say it's always sad when somebody goes. And so now I have, you know, the mayor of Providence and Wilfred Brimley all all in one all in one McGillam. Um later on in the show, Nastasia tells me that we will have Phil Bravo.
+
+[5:09] Is that true or no? Yeah, yeah. He's a big one. What's the name of the guy from Star Knight Live? Um The announcer?
+
+[5:15] Yeah, the one that died or the new one. He's dead too? Yeah. Yeah. God.
+
+[5:21] This is a rough day for Dave. Do you need to cancel the show? Should we should we give you a minute? Wait, Dave, what's your favorite? What's the favorite name that you like when he says?
+
+[5:30] Will Forte! Like that. I love Will Forte. Chef Joanna says Don Parteau. Yes, Don Pardo.
+
+[5:37] Pardo. Yeah. But anyway, like I always wish that Phil Bravo was on Saturday Night Live, not so that I could be close to Saturday Live the way Nastasia loves Saturday Night Live, but just so I could hear someone go, Phil Bravo. It'd be great, wouldn't it? Doesn't it sound good?
+
+[5:52] He has a great name. Like, for those of you that don't know, Phil Bravo, friend of the show. Uh, no, I mean, sometimes punching bag. I mean, not as good as Peter Kim at being a like a show punching bag. Comes on once a year, Phil Bravo does to do his uh his Grinch thing.
+
+[6:07] Uh comes on occasionally to read things, has, you know, the great sonorous voice. So should I wait to make fun of him until he's on? I feel bad making fun of him when he's not. Plus, he just woke up, so he's not gonna be punchy, you know. I don't know.
+
+[6:22] Listen, listen, listen. For those of you that he's not lazy, he lives in California. Well, I don't know. I mean, okay. But he lives in California.
+
+[6:32] So he's not just waking up New York time. He's just waking up California time. I think he might be in Palm Springs right now, actually. But that is Palm Springs, California. I know, I'm just saying.
+
+[6:45] Yeah. You're like, it's not really California, it's Palm Springs. It's Palm Springs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[6:51] Uh, have you been to Palm Springs? Uh, have you been on that uh on that tram? No. You've never been to Palm Springs? Nope.
+
+[6:59] You grew up in LA, you've never been to Palm Springs. My parents were like, where why we were not going there? Yeah. I mean, like, you never passed by it on your way to Joshua Tree or anything? I mean, like.
+
+[7:10] We passed by it. I literally passed by your parents' house on the way to Joshua Tree through Palm Springs. Yeah. So if you should go, they have like a really cool tram. Have none of you taken this tram?
+
+[7:26] No. I don't even know about the tram. So there's a state park at the top of the mountain where Palm Springs is. It's really kind of a nice, nice state park. It's like cool, right?
+
+[7:36] And because it's on top of a mountain, and you know, so it's not as as as piss hot as it is down there in Palm Springs proper. But you you take this tram and it goes all the way up the mountain. But the cool thing about the tram is it it rotates, so there's no bad seat in the tram as you go up this mountain. So, like Dax and Jen were like, oh, this is awesome. This is amazing.
+
+[8:03] Rotating tram. And you're going around and it's really cool, and you're going from this piss hot place, because we were there in the dead of summer, up to where it's like really nice in the mountains. And I spent the entire time like at the very center of the rotating tram, like with my head in facing straight down, so that I wouldn't have to see anything. I was the exact opposite because I'm deathly afraid of heights. Deathly afraid of heights.
+
+[8:25] Anyway. And that was when I learned that uh Teddy Bear Choya are not to be trifled with. Right? They are the Wu Tang clan of like small cactuses. Like you think as a small child, I can kick that Choya, which is spelled Chala.
+
+[8:54] But you you're like, I think I can kick that Choya. And that sucker, I was there because my my grandmother was doing some sort of like uh Job's daughters slash Masonic, you know, hoo-ha bull crap in like the late 70s. And I was in my I was a small tiny child with a butt part, like a I had a a real butt part, super straight hair, long butt part, giant photogray glasses, little bit on the chubby side, like like polyester blue blazer, like cut a little bit boxy and a little bit long, and ill-fitting pants. Can you picture this, Nastasia? Yeah, I can.
+
+[9:32] You've seen the pictures, right? Also, like pre-braces, so like my teeth, like they may have a gap now, but they were like Level or blinds back in the day, and like a real, real, some real buck tooth action going on. I mean, I had it, I had it as we say, going on. And so I had my finest dress loafers on to go to my uh grandparents' things right before the the tram. And I was like, that's a stupid looking cactus, and I kicked the choya, and those needles went through my shoe and embedded through my shoe, through my sock, into my foot, and I spent like the rest of that whole morning trying to figure out how to extract uh choya needles from your uh from your is that the one that grows outside of um Jeff and Diane's the little No, those are Opuntias.
+
+[10:22] Those are um those are uh uh prickly pear cactuses. Oh, right. The Choyas are the ones that like look a little bit fuzzy and look like a bunch of little nodules. They look almost like a giant yeast cell sometimes, or they look kind of branched, but they have like little spiky balls. And like the the the we used to call this one the I don't know what the real name is.
+
+[10:42] There's teddy bear choya. It sounds friendly, is not. There's what they call jumping choya because like the rumor is that those balls will jump out and get you. That's how aggressive they are. If you get anywhere near them, the needles will like in bed, stick in you, and then they'll roll onto you and like really take you down.
+
+[10:58] But do not mess with Choyas, but do go to Palm Springs and go up in that in that tram. Not a cooking related thing, though. That tram sounds like a recipe for motion sickness. Well, so like, are you also afraid of heights, Matt? Uh no, I was when I was younger, but no.
+
+[11:18] The thing about trams and people who are afraid of heights is that if you close your eyes and just understand that you're petrified, do my classic of trying to pretend that you're dead so that you can kind of ignore like life and your fear and the sweat. Remember, fear sweat people smell so much worse than regular sweat. Like, like running around sweat is like almost like pleasant compared to fear sweat. You know who has a lot of has a lot of info on that that's so fascinating is McGee's new book that hasn't come out yet. But sweat.
+
+[11:52] Oh, you read it too? Well, he when he and I went out, he told me about the sweat chapter, and it's freaking fascinating. Yeah, different different uh different ethnicities of people have different like sweats. He also sent me a uh a paper on fear sweat, which maybe I can share with I can share with you guys. I don't I don't have it in my head enough to like recite the results verbatim now, but in terms of like I mean, I guess it is semi-cooking related since all of us sweat our frigging chonies through when we're working in a real kitchen, you know what I mean?
+
+[12:26] So sweat, and no one wants someone to sweat into their food, right? I had this discussion the other day. Like, what are your thoughts on the whole because there's whole like people sweating into the food as they're cooking? It's horrifying when you see it, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[12:42] Anyway, we could talk about it. Uh, but what were you saying about McGee's book and sort of just bringing it up? I I don't have the information in my head as well as he could explain it either. But it's fascinating. So since he has finished his book, you think we should ask him to come on?
+
+[12:57] You think people would enjoy having the McGee back on the back on the air? Yeah. We can discuss so we can solely discuss sweat-related issues. It can be sweaty cooking issues. It's perfect for an August episode, yeah.
+
+[13:09] So for those of you that know, don't know, McGee's new book, as Nastasia says, is about smells, but a lot of the interesting stuff in the book is how different smells relate. So how like sweat smells or sex smells can be similar to certain food smells, uh, etc. etc. It's not actually a food book, it's literally a book about smells and all of the uh all of the kind of attendant molecules. Like I could see, like a lot of people do science, like science classes using on food and cooking.
+
+[13:42] I could see someone doing like an organic chemistry class for non chemistry or non premed people using this. And Ariel's book, she when she was here, she showed me she's doing flavor and smells and stuff, and she's she's watercoloring her own all the photos in the book. Oh, cool. Well, she hasn't shared that with me, Nanny Nanny. I would love to.
+
+[14:03] We should have Ariel on too. We shouldn't have we should have them on separately though. Like they shouldn't be like stealing each other's thunder, right? We gotta have them on separately. Yeah.
+
+[14:12] But um let's get to the first order to get it out of the way, Dave. Which of Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But before we do that, let me finish Fear of Heights. So I would like some advice from people. So for those of you that know, Nastasia is convinced, true or false, that uh if something were to happen in my family life such that, you know, like I don't know, they left me or whatever, then I would become the leather man.
+
+[14:39] I would become an itinerant like walker. I would just be walking around eating scraps out of people's trash cans and like. But you would but the other thing is that you would take the same route, which would allow you to see Jen's family, me, you know, so you it it works for the city. My parents exactly because they're on that loop. Yep.
+
+[15:00] It's but it's between the Hudson River and the Connecticut River, between the Long Island Sound and as far north as like where Middletown Connecticut is. So if you guys are familiar with our little section of the east coast of the United States, that little loop is the Leatherman loop. And so, yeah, you know, like, but okay, so every ten, every five to ten years, I I decide to start thinking I'm gonna do this again, but I gotta find out when I'm gonna do it. I would like to do either the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail. What do you think?
+
+[15:32] I would do one of those with you. But it's it's so long. How long? They're 2,000 miles apiece. How many days are you?
+
+[15:42] Well, the real question is you don't has to do it all in one shot. You can do like chunks of it. But the real question is like you can like it's still considered what they say a through hike if you do it like if you do like you know a third of the hike, take a break, a third of the hike, take a break. As long as you complete the whole trail in a year, they consider it a through hike. That's the the thing of a gym.
+
+[16:06] Well, but there's some pretty restrictive timing issues. You can't go up Mount Catan at the end too late in the season. It'll just be closed. I mean, like, you can't start. There's there's a limit to how early you start and how late you end.
+
+[16:19] Yeah, so the the power move is to is to do the like the the midway up and then do a southbound later. You know what I'm saying? Whoa, okay, I did not realize that. Or or to do a reverse. So the problem is is that people start the Appalachi sorry guys, Appalachian Trail.
+
+[16:38] So the East Coast of the United States, there's a 2,000 and change mile uh trail that runs from Georgia to Maine. And it sounds puny because we don't have any mountains here, but uh in the East Coast compared to that what they have over there in the Sierras, which is where the Pacific Crest Trail is, but what they make up for in not having heights, they have a massive amounts of elevation change. So like hiking the whole Appalachian Trail is like going up and down Mount Everest, like some unbelievable number of times. It's crazy. There's a lot of elevation change, even though no particular mountain.
+
+[17:08] You know what I learned? So I watched them at the beginning of quarantine. This is partially why I stopped eating meat, but there is this one um documentary called like I don't remember life changers or something, but it was all about um vegetable plant based diets, and the guy got on the did the Appalachian Trail in record time, uh, and he and he thinks it is because of his plant-based diet. Hmm. Or is it that okay?
+
+[17:36] I know you would dispute, refute. I mean, do you think that Brady is like one of the great quarterbacks because he doesn't eat tomatoes? It's not about the tomatoes, Dave. It's about the plant. Oh, and Phil Bravo's on now, so let's not get into football because this is gonna be a thing, and that we don't need that.
+
+[17:52] Yeah, we only know we only have so much time. Is Phil Bravo still the commish of fantasy football? I don't know if fantasy football is still on. I guess it's the perfect sport for this type of pandemic. It's a fantasy.
+
+[18:04] It's truly fantasy football. They are imagining all the games. Phil unmute your microphone. There you go. I know.
+
+[18:10] I'm very unmuted. Uh fantasy football started because it's not football season. It's baseball season, and yes, fantasy baseball has started. What's this new? I hear there's an uh here from Don Lee, my partner at existing conditions, that there's some sort of new fantasy baseball thing online where you pick random teams and then random games are like theoretically played in some sort of alternative Lovecraft universe.
+
+[18:34] Have you heard of this, Phil? I've alternative games and I mean I think it's just fantasy baseball. I think they're doing like a daily thing these days, but that is just to scam people out of money. I don't really understand what you're talking about. Are you do you do fantasy baseball?
+
+[18:48] Are you also a commish of that? Are you the Bartlett Giamatti of fantasy baseball? I am I am only Bartlett Giamatti, the commish in uh only in football. In baseball, I am just a lowly team. Sorry, that wasn't great payoff there, but yeah, just team owner, yeah.
+
+[19:07] Team owner, yes. I manage my players that aren't Marlins, uh, because all of the Marlins are infected with COVID. Oh, like for real? Are you serious? You don't know, man, you guys don't follow sports.
+
+[19:19] So the Marlon I told you not to get on this stage. Well, here we are. Go for it, Phil. But use your best Phil Bravo voice, please. Yeah, yes.
+
+[19:29] Alright. So the market's like a sports center thing. 17 players who have been uh players and coaches. They wait, say 17 players again. That sounded real good.
+
+[19:39] 17 players. Uh and then but then it just happened with the Cardinals. Baseball is nonsense this year. They are they set this thing up terribly. Okay.
+
+[20:07] A food journalist and podcast host, presenting Behind the Label with American Humane. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. We're looking inside the farm certification process, beginning with the moment a farmer expresses interest in becoming American Humane Certified, all the way to a consumer seeing the seal on store shelves. And American Humane is our country's first national humane organization founded way back in 1877.
+
+[20:44] Now we certify nearly one billion farm animals each and every year. Despite that growth, uh roughly 90% of US farm animals are still raised without the benefit of independently verified science-based standards. Subscribe to Behind the Label with American Humane, wherever you listen to podcasts. That you, first of all, for those of you that don't know, Phil Bravo, one of the things that he has done, I don't know if you're still doing it, is teach small children how to play crappy instruments, right? And quality instruments, but generally crappy ones.
+
+[21:28] Yeah, and as everyone knows, the crappiest instrument of all time is the recorder. Right? Sounds bad on a good day, blow too hard, and it sounds like dying animals. It's a it's a garbage instrument. Right or wrong.
+
+[21:42] I mean, it depends I mean, like, uh, you have a lot of of wonderful people in Amsterdam listening right now who would disagree, and they love some Baroque music. Okay. Is there a most famous recordist? Like who's the yo-yo ma of the recorder? I can't remember.
+
+[22:00] Well, there's this girl whose name I can't remember that is like a recorder virtuoso. She's like 25 and just is insane. I can't remember her name. And then there's this guy. But can she still only get one note out of that thing at a time?
+
+[22:15] Does it still lack nice overtones? Uh it it I mean, yeah, it does really have I think there's overtones in there. I don't know. I didn't really prepare for this. I can I can try and get a uh I can try and get a PowerPoint deck ready for you.
+
+[22:28] Did ACDC ever use a recorder? No. I mean, if they didn't, they're missing out, is the main thing. They've used bagpipes. They have used backpipes.
+
+[22:38] Yeah. I love a bagpipe. But Phil, tell tell me what your new hobby is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, let me ask you this.
+
+[22:47] If you are a professional recordist, uh uh a recorder teacher, what would be the only the only lateral instrument move you can make in terms of instrument quality? The only one. Well, we had said triangle, Dave. Yeah, yeah, but then like your your uh friend Min Young said that triangle trying the triangulist is actually respected in an orchestra. Why?
+
+[23:11] I don't know. Right. Yeah, Phil, do you know why? Yeah, because they're a percussionist, and also the everyone can hear what they do. You mess up everybody here.
+
+[23:19] You're a backstand violinist. You could budge a few things. All right. So Stas, what's the only lateral other than triangle? Ukulele.
+
+[23:28] Oh ukulele! This is like literally the only skill that I worked on in quarantine. I know! I told Dave, and then he was like, Are you kidding me? Yeah.
+
+[23:42] So, so is it because you have a deep voice and you want to cover tiny Tim songs? Well, it's I like to be able to do that. So complicated. There's a lot of strings on that. Ukulele, there's only four.
+
+[23:55] I'm not a smart man, Dave. Here's the other thing, people, in case you don't know, ukulele is one of is of the two open chord instruments I can think of, the lesser by far. It's no banjo. You know what I mean? Like the banjo is an open court instrument, so like I can pick it up and just slap at it like a monkey and it'll make a chord.
+
+[24:16] But it, you know, at least it's a banjo, and there's a whole technique of picking around it, you know. The ukulele, I mean, aren't you just holding your finger in a bar and going up and down the neck and strumming? No, no, no. Dave, you're embarrassing yourself. Like you have like I'm not sure.
+
+[24:34] You're playing ukulele and I'm embarrassing myself. One of the one of the one of the first people that I ever met in in the wild that actually listened to your show is uh and runs an orchestra program in Hawaii and is a bass player, and like you you gotta you gotta respect Hawaiian ukulele. I will say the way that the ukulele is generally played, terrible. The ukulele itself, awesome. Me playing I'm not saying right, okay, okay.
+
+[25:03] That that is a fair statement, right? Like the tiny Tim style open chord strumming ukulele. If that's all banjo was, also the banjo would be a joke, but clearly the banjo's a great instrument because of what people do with it, right? And you and because you're coming from Brooklyn, so you gotta love a banjo, it's required. Banjo and a xylophone.
+
+[25:22] Xylophone? Mm-hmm. Now, what's the difference between a hammer dulcimer and a xylophone, Phil? They're comp hammered dulcimer. I mean you hit it, yeah.
+
+[25:40] Fair enough. I mean, like, but also. Who's the famous Dulcimer player? Is that Yanni? Did Yanni play Dulcimer?
+
+[25:47] Is that who that was? Is that Yanni? I don't think that Yanni Yanni would just be at the Acropolis, right? He just like sang loud inspirational. I I thought he dulcied.
+
+[25:58] Was he I thought he was one of those dulcy do people. Someone look up some Yani live at Ecloplus. What? I thought he was saying. No, he's uh Greek keyboardist, composer, and producer, so keyboardist.
+
+[26:11] Keyboard. Keyboard. I feel like like talking to you about music is like a Jack Handy thing. It's like everything is like some kind of half fuzzy re fuzzy version of reality. What?
+
+[26:25] Wait, who's Jack Handy? Could you not remember Jack? Jack Handy wrote for SNL and thoughts. And he also did Emery. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:35] Dave, say Phil's voice with uh what's Don Pardo. Phil Bravo. Damn it now. Well, Nastasi and I believe that Phil Bravo needs to quit. First of all, Phil Bravo lives close enough to Los Angeles that he could actually do what we're about to say for a living.
+
+[26:54] Not that you can't do this remotely anyway with a decent microphone. When are you gonna quit teaching recorder and ukulele to small snot-nosed children and become like a a voice professional? Come on, give me some more Phil Bravo voice. Seven years. I know.
+
+[27:07] I waited too long. Now everybody's just sitting at home. So they're getting there. All of the uh all of the people that would have been acting are now just uh voice acting. I've it's like they flooded the market, Dave.
+
+[27:17] Yeah, but you still have the voice. It's true. It's true. You would never guess that you come from Florida. I have that voice.
+
+[27:26] You should see the gene shorts I'm wearing now. Oh my goodness. Um now I'm horrified. Now I can't even listen to you. Give me some give me something to wash away the gene shorts.
+
+[27:36] Are you in Palm Springs, Phil? I'm in Palm Springs right now. I am on my one, this is my this is how I'm spending my vacation, Dave, talking to you. Oh, joy. Joy.
+
+[27:47] Uh so listen, why don't you read what you came on to read? So Phil Bravo uh had an experience with one of our with one of our oh, before we get into this though, uh, Wes Hendrickson uh uh listener went on the uh, what's it called, uh, Twitter last week and rightly pointed this out. I just want to say uh for those of you um out there that the antigen tests for COVID, the antigen test, which is the normal point of care kind of test that you can get, are not accurate enough, especially in the absence of contact tracing to uh to allow you to forego social distancing measures. So I just want to be clear that we're not saying that um that kind of test is a a valid uh a valid test to have you stop social distancing. So I just want to not forget to say that before the show is out.
+
+[28:41] Now, Phil, what do you got for me? That was that was the transition to me. Phil, bro! Brand new transition. There you go.
+
+[28:51] Classic cooking issues intro. Yeah. Uh all right, so I'm gonna read an email that I received uh and it was to my work email, so I apologize in advance if this isn't professional. So I'm gonna uh names have been have been changed and altered to protect the innocent. All I'm saying, Phil, is if you're gonna do the voice acting, you've got to speak into the mic.
+
+[29:14] You're they're like waving in and out like you're like uh well, this is I I have uh I even used my good quality phone microphone, all for you, Dave. Let me ask you a question, Phil. But before you get into what you're saying, do you think if let's say, let's say three people are doing a radio show on the regular, let's say it's called Mooking Bishes on the Rareitage Mateo Network, right? And two of those people buy their own microphones, but one of the people refuses to buy their own microphone for so long, and the sound quality is so bad that the network buys and sends them a nice microphone on the network's dime, and the other two people get nothing. What are your thoughts on this?
+
+[30:01] Well, I guess if the uh if the first two just weren't confident enough in their self-worth to demand the equipment that they rightfully deserve, you know, I guess that's on them, Dave. Yeah, but what if the third person didn't demand it? It's just the network got so pissed off at how bad that third person sounded that they sent her, let's say her name is Mastacia Glopez. They sent her a nice microphone. I'm just saying, I don't know.
+
+[30:30] I think that Nastasia is a very clever person, and she understood that eventually I would crack. Exactly. Uh-huh. What I would say is it sounds like that third person knows the way the game is played. Uh okay.
+
+[30:49] By the way, we have not had one cooking related thing this entire time. Yeah. Oh, I can uh I made a I made a terrible horchata ice cream that we can talk about. Oh, just do it now. Let's do it now.
+
+[31:02] Rice or shada or choof and nut? Uh rice. So uh I I thought I was being clever. Basically, I found some recipe where it wants you to steep the the cream with so basically you don't actually blend in the rice, almonds, and cinnamon. You steep the milk, but I was like, no, that's gonna be just lightly flavored, no one wants that noise.
+
+[31:24] I'm gonna use my new Vitamix, and I am going to blend just the crap out of the rice and the cinnamon. And then I also didn't use Mexican cinnamon because I'm a heathen, so I just use regular stick cinnamon. Uh, and now I have this this uh I haven't made the ice cream yet, it's in the fridge. Just pudding, Dave. It is pudding, and it's because of the rice, I'm guessing.
+
+[31:46] It's a lot of starch you have in that, my friend. I know. Like how much rice per unit liquid? That's a lots of lots of starch. So basically, it's like we've got uh two and a half cups of cream, one and a half cup of milk.
+
+[31:58] I usually do a two, two cream, one milk, but it was uh I I was like, it was just thick, it was like a viscous, just kind of blobish thing. Uh but then it was basically a cup, uh, a little bit less than a cup of rice and a cup of cup. A real cup or a rice cooker cup? Uh real cup. Oh, okay.
+
+[32:20] I was I was using so what I did is I looked up a recipe for horchata, and like, but I think that even those recipes assume a blender that's not gonna like do its full, like, you know, dirty, sinful business. It's gonna like kind of like leave chunks that you can then sieve out. But no, my Vitamix did its job, and so I've just got like a wonderfully tasty, very heavily cinnamoned sludge. Phil, now you know that the vita prep means business. It does.
+
+[32:49] I think at this point you should just heat it and turn it into a pudding. You should just cook the starch out and have it be a pudding. I think you should get the real nuts and not use the rice. Well, that's a whole different thing. I like the chief and nut sauce.
+
+[33:01] What? Yeah, you you prefer the cheese and nut to the rice? I do, I do, I do. Yes. I like the word choof and nut.
+
+[33:09] But but what happens if I put it in the in the ice cream maker? Like what's what's gonna be wrong with it? What kind of ice cream maker do you have? It's probably a Hamilton Beach, I'm gonna guess. No, it's the blackened Decker.
+
+[33:24] Um it is uh it's a Kobe brand. It's a Kobe. It is a lovely queas and art. It's my friend, so it might it might break it, but it's not mine. So it's yeah, it's gonna be too thick.
+
+[33:36] So, like the the issue on motorized things is that uh one of the ways a lot of these things work is they judge how well they've been freezing by the kind of viscosity, and when the motor stalls out, it knows it's done. Uh and so that's why I'm asking. I don't know how that particular unit does, but you're gonna stall out your your dasher motor like much earlier because it's so thick. So uh it's it's just if your viscosity is like really, really wrong, it's just hard to get anything but the most powerful ice cream like prof like commercial ice cream maker to get it to work right. Um so you might want to, like I say, just heat this, turn it into a pudding, right?
+
+[34:17] Uh like cook the starch out, right? Because you haven't cooked the starch out yet, right? So now it's also chalk, it's also chalky. It has the benefit of being chalky and pudding and sludge like, right? All right, so this I would heat.
+
+[34:30] Gotta slow down for one second here, just because like again, I I teach the recorder. Uh cook the starch out. Explain to me. The heat it. Yeah, but like doing a double boiler, it's gonna scorch like a mother.
+
+[34:42] How does the starch come out? Like I'm I like this is you gotta speak to me like I'm gonna, yeah, Dave. You got how does the starch come out? Just by heating. Right now you have a pile of of raw rice.
+
+[34:52] I do right. So if you heat it up close to the like boiling point of water, then you know, the starch will swell, soften, and cook in the way that like a cornmeal slurry slurry would. And then when it cools back down, it'll turn into a solid like a rock, but at least it'll be cooked. You know what I mean? Solid as a rock.
+
+[35:14] Yeah, nothing's changing it. The thrill is still ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hot. Solid as bar rock. Oh. And that's a great song, by the way.
+
+[35:30] This mic is already paying dividends because I heard every bit of nostalgia. You heard Nastasia also singing. Yeah, yeah. It was worth it. Was that less than a few years?
+
+[35:40] Those of you that only hear Nastasia and I arguing with each other on the air, and by the way, we also do that in the real life off. It's strange the things that we like in common. But we also know, like I knew you were going there. We've done it many times. It's like a hive mind issue.
+
+[35:57] I don't know what that is. Do we have a hive mind? I don't know what that is. Alright. Okay, so uh any any more cooking questions, Phil Bravo?
+
+[36:06] I think that made sense to me. I'm I'm I'm on the show. Send us a photo when you're when you're done. But listen, Phil, welcome to the land of Vitapeps because or Vita Vitamix, I guess uh no one they don't even call them Vitapeps anymore, right? No, nobody calls it that.
+
+[36:20] Just me. I'm the last sole survivor of the Vitapep. Back in the day, they used to make a model just for chefs. It was a Vitamix and they wrote Vitaprep on it, but I think they stopped doing that like I don't know, 10 years ago or something. But I you know, I don't I don't change.
+
+[36:35] Anyway, um yeah, they're pretty sick instrument, right? You love that thing. I love that thing so much. I make uh I make many a flower out uh of random things, just like paper clips and are you trolling Nastasia? No.
+
+[36:51] Are you trolling? He doesn't listen, he doesn't listen to the show. He doesn't listen to the show. Yeah, but I'm sure you've complained about it to him. Yeah, like we don't talk about work.
+
+[36:59] Alright. I like how I've just been relegated to work. But just so you know, Phil, she does talk about you at work. What was that? She does talk about you at work for sure.
+
+[37:10] I am clear on that. It is one of the reasons I don't listen to the show. I don't uh I feel like there's a whole fiction version of me out in the world. Flour is a trigger word for Nastasia. She doesn't like to think about it or talk about it.
+
+[37:23] No, it's only because Phil, everybody's making bread at home, and people that make bread are usually in a couple, you know, so it's Pat's making bread. He's uh, you know, Pat's not making bread. I think it's mainly because uh without burger. Yes, Pat is a prof Pat is another friend of uh Nastasia's friend of the show, professional didgeridooist. It's true.
+
+[37:46] Uh he's a professional di first of all, he plays many, many instruments. What's the word for like a like a polyglot for instruments? I think just polyglot for instruments, I guess. Alright, anyway, he plays a whole lot of instruments professionally. But what what Pat Pat has a really cool job in that there's a couple of things that all of the famous orchestras only know him as the only guy that plays it.
+
+[38:10] So, like, right or wrong, when an orchestra is like, I need a digeridoo, they're like, I don't know. The only guy I know who plays it is this Pat guy. And so they fly him out to do his diggeridoo and then he goes home. True or false. I have not heard that.
+
+[38:24] It's a version of the truth. So there was one concert with the didgeridoo, but it's generally he does a lot of ocarina, but he plays the saxophone. Have Arena is the thing he had a bunch of gigs on. Does he enjoy the melon ocarina man? I believe that he.
+
+[38:39] I mean, how could you not, Dave? Smash Mouth on the melon-based ocarina is one of the better YouTubes. I don't know that. No. You've never seen All Star played on Ocarinas made from melons?
+
+[38:54] No. Mm-mm. Oh, we've definitely talked about this on the show because I remember Googling it after it's worth it. I think, yeah, I think Nastasia probably rightly tuned us out there in this conversation, but this guy, I think he makes like ocarinas for people like Pat Posey, but also makes them out of things like melons, so that he can play Smash Mouth's All-Star on the Melon Ocarinas. It's it's classic.
+
+[39:21] But am I right or wrong in that Pat Posey was in fact paid cash money to play didgeridoo for an orchestra and thus is a professional classic diggeredoist. I I bel I believe that that that is true. Yeah. You see, although I don't present the complete truth, what I always say is the truth. Yes.
+
+[39:41] Also, I feel like I feel like we need to do, I have an ad in the making of just like, do you have a melon but need an ocarina? Yeah, well, you talk to this guy. I mean, this guy is like better than all of us at the YouTubes. He has like 8 billion views. Because unlike Nastasia and I, he knows what people want.
+
+[39:59] They don't want to hear people talking about like cooking and their friends. They want someone to take a melon, what used to be a watermelon, or a honeydew or a musk melon, and all of a sudden now it plays Smashmouth. That's what they want. Clearly. Do you have a do you have a theme song for the for the show, Dave?
+
+[40:19] I never listened to that. Yeah, it's uh it's uh it's uh someone redid uh Amos Milburn's Vicious Vicious Vodka uh, you know, cocktail blues uh legend Amos Milburn redid one of his things and that's our intro. Well uh because Nastasia didn't like the the kind of uh the the screamy metal uh Joel Gargano cooking issues go intro. Well depending on Nastasia, you'll have to pressure Pat uh and I into putting together an ocarina and recorder uh I would love that, but you guys can't get your crap together fast enough for some of the things I request. I don't know about it.
+
+[40:55] But we've been doing it for 10 years. Sometime in the next 10 years would be good. Just try and work it out. Now listen, people, I want you to write into the chat room or to whatever, to Nastasia or to John. Like, of the here are the instruments you can choose from.
+
+[41:09] You got your your saxophone, your ocarina, your digeridoo, your recorder, your ukulele. Any combination of that, the Phil Bravo slash Pat Posey team can can make if they choose to, a theme song using those instruments. So doesn't he play, doesn't he have like a baritone sax he goes? Isn't he like a hired gun on Barry? Yeah, he does a lot of berry.
+
+[41:32] That's a sick instrument. The baritone sax is freaking sick. And then Phil, you should sing you should sing over it. I'll think about that one. Phil Bravo, you are the bass trombone of human beings.
+
+[41:47] I feel like I don't know if that's a compliment or the worst insult I've ever had. Well, this Nastasi and I were bonding this earlier this week over our shared love of Sly and the Family Stone. Oh yeah. And Sly and the Family Stone has some sweet, I believe, bass trombone parts. Wa wah wah la wah, wah, wah, wah.
+
+[42:08] That stuff's awesome, right? Isn't that it? Doesn't he have bass trombone in some of those arrangements? Now I'm gonna have to go and listen. I don't know what that is played on.
+
+[42:15] I believe you, but you also you again, this is probably some fuzzy version of the truth. Look, as long as my version of the truth contains a bass trombone, I'm happy with it. I will get back to you. I'm gonna do some research. All right, you do that.
+
+[42:31] Meanwhile, why don't you do what you came on to do, Phil? All right. And so we have an email entitled Odd Question. Hello, Phil. I'm not sure if you remember meeting me at the Systema USA conference in Detroit last year, where we presented on Systema Toronto's social curriculum, which as an aside, Dave, was really impressive.
+
+[42:53] What the heck is Systema? Oh, uh, so that's what I actually do. So it's uh it's a uh we'll we'll do the sh the short version. It is a approach to teaching music for young people that basically blends music education with uh social justice, with the idea that everyone should have access to high quality music education. Um that sounds great.
+
+[43:17] It's great, yeah. That's that's uh and and it's done, Dave, through recorders. Um not in now you lost me. But a little bit, but a little bit. Uh this is also I thought you said high quality.
+
+[43:28] We had a nice lunch afterward, if I remember correctly. It was at the music. It's a big email. Oh, all right, right. I'm reading the email, Dave.
+
+[43:37] All right. I'm watching you right now, which wasn't creepy. Uh I'm watching you right now on the YOLA webinar. I was I was hosting a webinar, Dave. Uh, and it reminded me where I recognized your name from.
+
+[43:53] My apologies if I am totally wrong, but your voice also sounds familiar. Are you the same Phil Bravo that has appeared on the geeky food podcast, cooking issues? If so, this will be one of the most hilarious small world moments of my life. Cooking issues is my absolute favorite. Uh, he's from Canada, so there's a you in there.
+
+[44:15] Favorite podcast, and I've been listening to it every week for years. Again, sorry to waste your time if there's a Phil Bravo voice alike out there. And then that's there is not. There is only one Phil Bravo. So uh you have reached.
+
+[44:31] My apologies. I didn't really get approval to read that online, but I figured that that would be okay. Phil, can you can you give the little short thing of when you started at the LA Philharmonic and you needed an email address? Oh, well, oh, the the short version is basically IT the IT department, would never set up my email, and they kept on turning it off because they kept on thinking that that uh Phil Bravo was a fake name. That's like in the system is like a catch-all.
+
+[44:58] They're like, ah, some would just put that in there. That's not real. Phil, Phil Bravo, so good. I mean, it's it's a great name, and you have a great voice, and you're throwing it away. It's true.
+
+[45:10] You're throwing it away. You're 40 years old, Phil. Get it together. Just withering on the vine, Nastasia. Get it together, Phil.
+
+[45:19] Um, I will say though see what's happening. Uh, listen, so I'm gonna give you some more advice so that we have some cooking in here. Oh, perfect on your Vitapep. Things that people a Vita mix, things that people don't necessarily know about it. It's actually better for the equipment to run it on full high speed.
+
+[45:37] So when you turn it on, always remember when you're turning it off, make sure both switches, if you have the classic style, are down the variable speed and variable speed and the off switch off. Make sure the knob is turned all the way to slow. So just make it a habit when you're done of just swiping down on the face of the unit with two fingers to put both uh paddles down and make sure that knob is all the way to the to the left to um uh counterclockwise. And making that a habit that you ingrain in the way that you use the Vitaprep is Vitamix is going to save you someday from the the very least that will happen is you will be shocked when you accidentally turn the switch on and it ejects an entire pitcher of like very stainy crap all over your kitchen. Hypothetic.
+
+[46:26] And at the yeah, and and and the flip side of that is someday you will pour hot soup into this and hit go. And if it does it with hot soup, it can be I've seen it, it can be a very, very, very nasty, nasty burn. So just make sure that before you turn it on, that you do uh the both down, turn knob to the left, and when you turn it off, just make it a habit of always doing that so that the odds are, even when you're working, that you're never gonna be in a situation where you flick it on when it's on high. Also, uh everyone like does this, but if you rat when you rattle the pitcher as it's going, you're uh messing with the bearing on the bottom of the thing, and that's what's gonna cause over time your pitcher to get leaky, which will happen uh over time. The bearings now are much better than they were eight or nine years ago, but it's still not considered good practice.
+
+[47:18] That said, like when I get mad at it and I don't want to bother plunging, I will sit there and smash the top of it like like uh like a bongo drum to get it to do what I want. Another thing uh with uh the Vitoprep is Vitamix is remember not to dishwash your uh your your pitcher. And the reason again is the bearings. It's not good. There is no ball bearing, even though they're sealed, that are designed to be continuously and constantly dishwashed, and also it will fuzz out the um the plastic on the outside over time.
+
+[47:52] So your best bet is right after you're done uh blending hot water, start it on low, blend it up, and then dump it out. That should clean the blades out and the rest you can clean by hand. Am I missing anything, John, on uh on Vitamix uh care? I like to include a little soap and uh that final blend. Just does it all.
+
+[48:10] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But don't dishwash. And by the way, that also goes for uh spinzalls.
+
+[48:16] Uh you you're allowed to, and we say in the manual that you're allowed to dishwash the lid, but just be aware that it will shorten the life of the ball bearing. So John uh was telling me we're talking this morning before the radio program. We don't know why Searsols are not in stock in Amazon. We've sent them two orders and they just haven't put them online. True or false does.
+
+[48:36] Yeah, that's true. And do you know any reason why they are shafting a soft? No idea. It's not us people. Amazon has it.
+
+[48:45] Uh this morning, by the way, just so you know, uh, we can talk because we have the patents. I'm working, I'm working on some interesting Searsol related stuff. Maybe in a couple weeks we can talk about it. Um, but we have some interesting movement in the in the Sears all space. We don't know when we're gonna have the next round of uh spinzalls for sale because the factory just won't get back to us.
+
+[49:07] Like everything, like all over the world, obviously, is problems with corona, but I actually don't think this is a corona problem. Do you think it's a corona problem, Nastasia? I don't think so. I really don't know what the issue is. We are trying to get a date for when we can get more spinzalls in.
+
+[49:24] Uh they just don't exist right now. So they don't exist. But everyone should keep emailing spinzall at Bookerindex.com or Sears All at Booker Index.com, and I can put you guys on the wait list and then notify you as soon as they're available. By the way, I'm not encouraging you to waste John's time, but John literally, like John is like the best customer service representative, I think. Like he's he's crazy.
+
+[49:51] He we have the best customer service of like any company because John is like, is like so freaking conscientious about handling problems. So please, if you do have a problem, uh uh let us know. But we were actually, you know, whatever, whatever. Learning to troubleshoot people's problems over the phone is a fine art. I'm actually not bad at it.
+
+[50:13] I'm bad at calling people back, but once you have me on the phone, I'm real good at it, right, Stas? You're really good at it. You're better than the people that they send out to the house. I know. It's not a skill that I really want to have, because what it means is that I've spent the majority of my life dealing with people that have things wrong.
+
+[50:31] So I have to be hold on. The weather is not good. I'll be right back. Oh, yeah. Well, actually, yeah, Nastasia is turning into a uh Yeah, we're about to have a tropical storm hit us.
+
+[50:41] So uh Phil, thanks. Oh, let me let me hit one. Oh, you do not know what's going on. Nastasi, we're gonna head out. One question from the chat, too.
+
+[50:48] All right, and then I'm gonna rip two real quick uh real quick uh questions. What's the question from the chat? Uh John Sickor wrote in he's asking if you have any tips on juicing a pineapple in the champion. Uh he has trouble with the restrictor plate getting clogged. Yeah, well, it just gets clogged after a while.
+
+[51:06] Anything so what we're talking about is the champion juicer has an auger and then little teeth, and then it scrapes it as you push it through it. The teeth scrape it and masticate it, but chew it up, like masticate gross word. I'm sure Nastasia hates it. I don't know if she's still on, but I'm sure I'm sure you hate the word masticate, right? It's not that bad.
+
+[51:25] Really? All right. So uh chews it up and then pushes it through a plate with tiny holes, and then the fiber don't don't doesn't make it through the holes and they go out. But things with shreddy fiber, like things like ginger, like celery, whatnot, um, really tend to clog it up. So when you're juicing something like celery or rhubarb, the trick is to cut them in short pieces so that the long threads don't uh clog it.
+
+[51:46] But with pineapple, I've never really had that much of a problem. I usually chunk it before I put it in. But um, yeah, that's all I don't know. Like I don't I've never had a problem with that clogging, but it is relatively quick to swap that uh plate out. So in general, like as soon as it starts getting too hot, I or clogs too much, I swap it and pull it in out.
+
+[52:06] We should get going. This weather's getting really bad, and I'm a bit like a little bit. Alright, give me one second. Uh don't juice. I did a test to see how bad it was to juice apples without taking the little um peel off of not the the label off of the apple.
+
+[52:22] Don't do that. They all get stuck on that plate, and then that becomes uh a nightmare. All right, so I have to do hold sec. Uh this is from the chat room, L Burns. Hey Dave, cooking issues crew.
+
+[52:32] Thanks for the show. Uh I know how you feel about vegans, so apologies in advance. We love vegans, right, Stas? I'm vegan, celibate, and sober. Whoa.
+
+[52:43] Yeah, Stas. That's a good one. Not by choice. Not by choice. Well, you're vegan by choice.
+
+[52:49] Vegan by choice, too. Yeah. Yeah. And like, for those of you, like, maybe I'll look if it means you can have a glass of wine, I'll do more Instagram lives with you, Nastash. Okay, that's good.
+
+[53:01] All right. I mean, if that's the reason we need to do it, then I'll do it. Okay. Um. So uh I know how you feel.
+
+[53:09] Do you like to see that shirt that someone made with me as Leatherman? And you're right. That shirt is so good. So good. That's a great shirt.
+
+[53:15] Who am I? I'm uh uh what's his name's wife? Del say no. I can't remember. Who?
+
+[53:24] The one of me is what? Nothing too. It looks like Scarlett Johansson, but is it? No, it's it's some Russian dictator's wife. Like Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's the younger, that's the young Stal.
+
+[53:38] Is that the young Stalin? Yeah, maybe. Is that Stalin's daughter? No, I I have to look it up, but go on. All right.
+
+[53:46] Uh it's not uh Lenin's wife, is it? I think it might be Lennon's wife, yeah. Let me see. Huh. Well, she'll look that up.
+
+[53:54] Um, but if you were forced to try making the best possible vegan quote unquote bacon ever, how would you go about doing that? I know conventional suggestions like smoke paprika, liquid smoke, but wondered if you had any other ideas. Thanks. Uh so listen, uh L Burns, I don't have any ideas off the top of my head. This is something that we should I would definitely put out to the um put out to the chat.
+
+[54:18] And also maybe we'll throw it on uh John. Maybe we could throw it on our Twitter feed to get people to respond because we have plenty of people who worry about this stuff. Yeah, I would like to say to maybe look at uh Jeremy and Rich's work. Jeremy Umansky and Rich She, Our Cook Quest and at TM Gastronaut on Instagram. I know Jeremy's done some cool stuff with uh mushrooms in the past.
+
+[54:36] I mean, also, but why don't we uh John, why don't you reach out to them and we can have them just call in on the next show if they have a good recipe and give it give us their their answer for it. Yeah, can do. Another thing is that I am not a vegan, but you know what I do love, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again: bacon bits. Texturized vegetable protein bacon bits are better than actual bacon bits on a salad. I'm gonna go ahead and say that.
+
+[54:59] Because they are crunchy, all get out. Am I the only one that likes bacon bits? Indifferent. I haven't had one in a while. Okay, listen.
+
+[55:11] Bacon bits, don't think of them as fake bacon. Taste, think of them as crunchy, salty smoke, right? So they're like crunchy, salty, smoky, proteiny, like umami crunchlets. They taste good on salad. Even if you had real bacon.
+
+[55:29] So for instance, if I had a cob salad and there was bacon on it, right? I would still be like, you know what tastes good? Bacon bits on this, son of a gun. Hell, I'll put salad. First of all, Nastasi, you still, if you were to have pizza, are you still salad on pizza?
+
+[55:42] Please tell them you haven't lost that. I might have lost Nastasia, but Nastasi and I like salad on a pizza. I'll put bacon on that sucker. Anyway. Alright.
+
+[55:52] Since Nastasia is gone, if I have 30 seconds left, I'm gonna do this because Nastasia hates carbonation questions. Daniel Wallingworth wrote in uh after a year and a half of binging the show, I'm almost caught up. Still got 40 episodes to go. My wife really likes uh say say the uh the French word uh seltzer water with your with your fancy French accent, John. Say that again?
+
+[56:14] Say the fancy uh French uh water name, the American uh seltzer water name. Say it with a French accent. Perrier? La Croix? No, no, no, no.
+
+[56:22] Yeah, say that. Yeah, Lacroix. Yeah, yeah, you go. Uh you see, the thing is is like I would say like La Croix, but it's just not the same because I can't do the I can't do the C R O I X the way that a real uh francophone can. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:34] Can't be done. Nastasia lost power. She's texting us. Uh uh crap. Yeah.
+
+[56:40] I told her before this thing happened that she needed to get her generator in order. I'm hoping she did. I'll call her in a minute and see how she's doing. I recently made a carbonation rig uh with a 20-pound tank and a carbonator cap. This produced cheaper, affordable results, which is why I went this route, but the flavor is a little lackluster.
+
+[56:55] I'm using water from my fridge door, and which I regularly change the filter. Those uh fridge filters are garbage. What I recommend you do is get a uh house filter and filter the water through a big filter before it goes into your fridge, and then just throw the filter away in your fridge. Uh, I think in the long run, you're gonna have a better result that way, but whatever. Do what you want.
+
+[57:15] It's your filter, it's your water to your life. And I store it in the freezer for a couple hours before I carbonate it. How can I make the water taste more like the that word? Uh I add essential oils. They use water-based things, and they have systems that are made specifically to go into water by large flavor houses.
+
+[57:33] Very hard to duplicate that stuff by yourself. Um you can just I just squeeze limes and lemons into my seltzer, which reduces their bubbles, but I drink it so quickly it doesn't matter, and it's extremely fresh. Another very good thing, if you don't mind slight amounts of alcohol, and I'm sure John, you like this, is bitters. You like bitters in your uh in your seltzer? Not really.
+
+[57:54] I don't like bitter flavors in general. Not a big bitter thing, yeah. Well, if you like bitters, celery bitters in seltzer are delicious. Just a couple of dashes of celery bitters in seltzer, great. Uh even ango, ango is a little overpowering for some people for a standard seltzer, but try a couple of dashes of celery bitters or anything like that and give it a shot.
+
+[58:16] Uh I'm using my fridge cave. Uh, how can I make it taste more like that or the mineral flavor of Topo Chico? Well, you can just, or San Pellegrino, you can just use mineral water. I haven't had a good fake mineral water, although you can read um fix to pump Darcy O'Neill's books on soda, or go to his blog wherein he has lots of recipes for uh fake mineral waters. And then also, how is Topo Chico so carbonated?
+
+[58:39] And last, I don't know if you still do this, but I'm 27 male and my wife is supportive of my cooking shenanigans. Well, Daniel, I'll give you this little piece of advice before uh all of our power cuts out and we're forced to go. Um, one of your problems with getting a high level of carbonation is that uh when you remove the water from the bottle and do your double carbonation, which I always recommend you do two carbonations and make sure you squeeze all of the air out in between if you really want the full amount of carbonation. One of the problems is actually doing the carbonation is raising the temperature of the water while you're doing it, as opposed to the way they do it in commercial situations, which is they carbonate it at room temperature and then chill it afterwards at a very high pressure. What I would do is take one or two ice cubes and put them onto the rim of your bottle and then smack it with your palm to smash the ice cube into the bottle.
+
+[59:29] So you actually have a couple of nuggets of ice in there. Make sure it is ice cold, and then those two little or three little nuggets of ice will keep the temperature of the water extremely low while you're carbonating and allow you to get that really, really bubbly result you want at 42 to 45 PSI. So I hope that's been helpful. Uh if you're caught in this storm, uh stay safe. I'm gonna check on Stas and see uh how she's doing with the power.
+
+[59:54] Anything else, guys? Thanks, Phil Bravo. You got anything else to say on the way out, people? I uh just the realization that the uh the Vitapep is your didgery dude, Dave. I am I am I wish someone paid me to use it, so I'm not quite a professional.
+
+[1:00:07] I haven't made it to the Pat Posey level of of Vitamix uh instrumentation instrumentation, but like I would say I am a mid level ocarinist of the of the Vitapep. Love it. I'm gonna make some pudding. Cool. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:00:27] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:00:46] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:01:09] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Munkle Shoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights. Luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Om Sum, your new pantry staple that brings proud, loud Asian flavors into your home kitchen. Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Lower East Side of Manhattan. We got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez coming from me from a newly renovated power and internet cord, which is currently draped across her lawn, being pooped on by geese in Stanford, Connecticut. I actually we have Matt in I guess his Brooklyn booth, correct?
+
+[0:39] Rhode Island! Bro, have they changed the name yet? Have you lost the Providence Plantation yet? Or you still got the long name? I don't think that was an official thing.
+
+[0:47] That was like, you know, we live in the era of unilateral executive decisions. So that was a Ramondo joint. It's not the real like legal name of the state. Okay. And uh finally, uh I don't know where you are, John.
+
+[0:58] Where are you now? Are you you're not in Murray Hill now, right? No, I'm in Alpine, New Jersey. Ooh, Alpine, New Jersey. Uh not really aptly named.
+
+[1:09] No, no, not at all. I mean, you look out your window in Alpine, New Jersey, you're gonna see like other houses, like some trees. I mean, it's it's ritzy, it's nice, but like, you know, like you're not gonna see the yodeler from the price is right, which by the way, I can never, for some reason, I can never mentally you ever have songs in your head that you love them, but you can't mentally gel the tune. Like you can't whistle it, you can't sing it, but when you hear it, you're like, oh my god, yes. The price is right yodeler is one of those things for me.
+
+[1:41] The prices right yodeler? You don't know the yodeler? What? We built him in the lab, remember at the FCI, and he like climbed to the temperature of uh Sous vide cooking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:53] So like we were trying to teach people like different temperatures and not going over and under, so we got the prices. We did a Nastasia, I think, printed out, we cut out the Prices Right Yodler. And the theory of the Prices Right Yodler, first of all, for those of you who clearly like you guys grew up like like in a sewage grate with the with the Ninja Turtles, the Prices Right is a television show wherein you try to guess the price of something. All right. For many years it was hosted by uh Bob Barker.
+
+[2:22] You might only remember him from uh that Adam Sandler movie where he beats the crap out of Adam Sandler on the golf course. But he actually was a host, The Price is Right. And they had little games that they would play where people would guess prices, and Nastasia and I, like one of our favorites is this Yodler. And what happens is is that you uh you guess a price, and if you're like off by like, you know, twenty dollars, it has to it climbs up the mountain and yodels as it does by like 20 units. I can't remember what he's actually does though.
+
+[3:00] I can't ever remember his actual yodeling tune. And then if you if you're wrong, if you go too far, then he falls off the mountain and dies, and you don't win, you know, your washer dryer combo, which is I guess what you're playing for, is your washer dryer combo. It's a great show. Oh yeah. Oh hell yeah.
+
+[3:18] Have you ever seen the documentary on the prices right? All right. All right. It's look, maybe not for you worth watching, but for me, definitely worth watching. So there was this guy, I forget his name, and there's a couple people who have done it.
+
+[3:33] Where what he did was he watched the prices right. Like he didn't have a job. He just watched the prices right, and he kept track of everything they ever did on Prices Right. He kept like a database of all the stuff that they had ever done on Prices Right. And so he kind of, and they would always kind of go back to the well and dip back in and always like choose something that maybe a little bit different, but with the same like uh suggested retail price.
+
+[4:01] And so he just knew what they were gonna ask, and he would stand out in the line every day trying to get picked, and then go into the audience every day trying to get picked. And it took years for him for you know, for come on down that'cause that's what they say. Come on down, you're the next contestant on the price is right, and you come down and you have to guess, right? But he'd never been called, so he showed up and he was there every day trying to every day he could be in California, because I don't think he lived in California. He would go and try to get on, and he finally got on, and he guessed everything like on the nose, like on the nose, such that people are like, what the what?
+
+[4:40] What the hell? You know what I mean? And I think uh like he almost got banned at one point. It was it's it it's interesting for those of you who like the prices right, but anyway, Prices Right Yodeler is a song that I can't keep in my head. And when you're in Alpine, New Jersey, you might look out and think you're going to see beautiful Alpine mountains, but you won't.
+
+[4:59] In fact, the closest thing that to a mountain you have is a cliff you can fall off of, but you can't see it from the New Jersey side. If you want to see the cliff, you have to go to the New York side and look across the river, and it's called the Palisades. You with me on this, John? Yes, you're very right so far. Yeah.
+
+[5:16] Although Palisades Park, you ever taken a walk up to Palisades Park? No, I haven't. Very nice. So, like the very nice. So, like uh, we have this weird, it's actually an interesting geological feature.
+
+[5:27] Not impressive for those of you that live I live in the mountains. I live in I live in the Rockies. But like for those of us that live in the relatively flat East Coast, like the Hudson River, like was here already, and the Palisades kind of rose up next to it, and so there's this cliff face that's cut through where the Hudson River comes through, and there's a park and you can walk along the cliff edge, which is a little bit gives me a little bit of agida, but they have like handrails and you can walk. Unfortunately, there's also like a car parkway right there, but it's still a nice walk. You should check it out.
+
+[5:59] John, what are you what are you doing out there and what are you cooking? So I am up here cooking for uh some US open tennis players specifically know that Djokovic um as he's gearing up for the US Open, helping a longtime friend of mine uh cook, he's the one who has worked with his family before and done this. I think this is his third year running now for the US Open. Um and yeah, it's pretty different than what I am used to. It's vegan gluten-free cooking.
+
+[6:30] The last time I cooked for him, actually two years ago, he was at least still doing fish, but no more, apparently. Huh. Um why do you think he does that, John? I have no idea. I'm trying to find out more about his dietary habits.
+
+[6:43] And so actually, Dave, we were just talking about this before you joined. What purpose would boiling nuts three times and then dehydrating them do? Who's gonna who which nuts did you boil? Any nuts. No, come on, dude.
+
+[6:58] These nuts anyway. Well, like no. Didn't think of it. Uh anyway, um who knows, man? Who knows?
+
+[7:16] Who knows? Like someone's worried about some what? He like this guy, he's in that movie that I told you about, the game changers, where they where all these athletes and these these people that like want to be at the top of their game, and who that guy that ran the Appalachian Trail or whatever, they all have the same diet. And and they believe that it makes them stronger and better and quicker, like at thinking. Yeah, and and Aristotle believed that if a if a woman exerted herself and did too much exercise that she might sprout a penis.
+
+[7:48] People can be wrong. Even smart people can be just wrong about things. You know what I mean? So it's like, yes, I agree with you, Dave, but then at the same time to also be with what Nastasia is saying, like, you know, these people I'm looking at this documentary now, the game changers like Lewis Hamilton, Novak Djokovic, Jackie Chan, like these old people at the top of their game. Is this guy good by the way?
+
+[8:07] This Djokovic guy is a good I don't know anything about tennis. One of the the best in in our in our time right now. So listen, we like something that I who I've heard of because of Nastasia, Tom Brady, right? Yeah. Now you gonna just go to the tomato thing again?
+
+[8:23] Like that's the only thing you cite with him. And like you need to get away. That's all I care about. I don't care about it. That's ridiculous.
+
+[8:30] Like, okay, tomato out and think about all the other stuff that he does. That it's the same diet that Jo that Djokovic is doing. It's just like maybe he doesn't like tomatoes, maybe someone gave him bad information. But like But yeah, that's the whole point. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[8:45] But you're just basing the entire like this entire thing that John just said and named off all these people, and you're like, but the tomatoes. Like Well, I I don't know anything about their diets, so I'm going to the one that we've discussed because I have some knowledge of what the person has said. And I don't know why you're getting, I don't really understand why you're getting so bent. There must be a reason, but okay. But my point is, if you let me finish my point, I think it's completely stupid.
+
+[9:11] And so here's what I think. Do I think that Tom Brady, because I don't know this other guy from a hot rock, because the world's greatest tennis player could knock on my door and hand me a package and I'd say thanks and shut the door in his face, because I have no idea who he is, right? So it's like the other good Tom Brady thing is he was in that uh show with uh with uh who is it Rudd. Did you see that show? No, Dave.
+
+[9:35] No. The premise of it is that you go to a spa and they they m they actually murder you and clone you. Living with yourself? Yeah, yeah, living with yourself. I'm not giving a lot away.
+
+[9:48] They murder you and they clone you, right? And so, and the idea is that you're telomeres and everything, you get like a baby's telomeres and all this other stuff. So you're like a fresh copy of yourself that hasn't been beat down. Like you have all your memories and everything, but you're a brand new, fresh physical copy of your current age self, best self, right? And so one of the jokes, and he played into it, which made me kind of like him a little more, is Brady is in it as like that's how he stayed kind of current by having himself like murdered and rebuilt like nine times.
+
+[10:19] He's like, I come here like every week. Yeah, anyway, classic. Uh so I'm gonna go ahead and say maybe it's that he's rich. Well, first of all, like genetically predisposed to being a good athlete, trains like a mother, has talent in the sport that they want to do, and just is rich enough to do whatever they need to do to train, and like works at it constantly because that's their job. I'm gonna say that probably that's the important part of it.
+
+[10:50] And having a crazy diet helps them focus on their body being the most important thing in their life, but it's not the actual diet that's doing it. It's just the crazy amount of focus, work, and money they're spending on it. Plus a lot of talent and like you know, good luck to have the genes to do that. I'm gonna go ahead and say it's that. I think it's a little more than that, I think.
+
+[11:13] Right, like I don't know. When you eat like a buzzers over the course of the case, how many beats am I gonna need today? No, use all the beeps. Dave, so like elephants and rhinos and hor like all the the uh the herbivore, like if you don't eat meat, then you should be a weak thing. Okay, listen.
+
+[11:34] Because you can't build muscle. Elephants are huge in plotting, right? Like Apex predators are what carnivores. Oh, ding! That's self-but that's of course they are, because you can't have your predator means they're a carnivore.
+
+[11:51] Matt, I don't believe what I'm saying. I'm just saying that Nastasia's logic is bad. Because I could easily present logic on the other side that says exactly the opposite. I think it's all horse hockey. John, go tell him that.
+
+[12:04] Go tell him that, and then you know, don't don't make that money. Yeah, yeah. This is why you're such a jackwife, Stas. This is why you're so done. John, he needs to be able to do it.
+
+[12:13] Never said not to go make the money. He needs to be done. No one said not to go make the money. Please don't. And I never said even though.
+
+[12:19] You're such a dirk. John, just just secret some meat in there and then tell them after he wins. By the way, you read that with the meat, and I only boiled your nuts twice. Never do that. Listen, if someone kind came up to me and said, listen, I only want you to uh I you can only use Fruit Loops.
+
+[12:37] That's the only ingredient. I'd be like, all right, let's see what I can do with Fruit Loops. I mean, I don't care. It's I'm not eating it. You know what I mean?
+
+[12:44] I I don't have any like issue with what someone else's diet is, unless, okay, give you an example. Here's why I'm pissed about the Brady thing. My mom and my stepfather believe it. And so now I have to deal with them changing their diet for something that's completely dumb. And they don't even have the support that Brady has or these other people have to do all these things.
+
+[13:05] And they believe it. You know, it's like it's it's like people make these decisions. Look, if you make the decision and you genuinely like having like a crazy diet and it actually like makes you feel more authentically whole as a person, then do it. You know what I mean? If if you like the taste of you know, not eating anything but triple boiled these nuts, then you know what?
+
+[13:28] Eat triple boiled these nuts. I'm sure John is making like amazing vegetables and stuff, and like that's okay. And I really think you could do without meat. I can do without meat. Anyone could do without meat.
+
+[13:40] Did I say you could not? No, but but it sounds like you're saying that if you choose to not eat meat, that's crazy. Okay, I'm specifically not saying that. Okay. That it doesn't make sense.
+
+[13:57] These diet is crazy. What I'm saying is this diet's crazy. Like, and and also like to say the argument that you hear where all of these high performance people who are part of a dietary cult, right? That is my issue with it. These people are high performing people in a dietary cult.
+
+[14:16] Non-high performing people look at them and think, if I do this dietary cult, maybe I will be a tennis star. You won't. No, I don't think it's that, Dave. I think that what they're saying is, yes, we are like superhuman species, and you know what puts me over the edge, that 5% not having this diet and not eating the meat that weighs me down. That's what they're saying.
+
+[14:38] Of course, these people are like incredible at what they do, but they they they did it one way and they did it another way, and they're like, I am 5% better if I cut out this thing, and that 5% matters. Um, okay. That's I'm just saying. We're not gonna agree on this. Okay.
+
+[14:56] So that's all mental. It's not all mental. It's they make a certain decision to take like to go crazy in terms of training, and it's part of that. It's overdetermined. None of these are controlled experiments.
+
+[15:10] This is all, this is all craziness. It's a cult. It's like when someone's like, Joyce, listen, raw food, right? And if you want to eat raw food, go ahead and eat raw food, right? If you read raw food cookbooks, some of them written by people that I like to hang out with, even some like what I'm not gonna name any names, right?
+
+[15:28] They all talk about the glow, the this, the that cult like language. Do you remember when we had Rangham on the show? The the Harvard professor who was like, yeah, like what makes us human is the fact that we cook food, like literally, you need to spend all day, every day eating food. It's another cult diet. It's all the same, it's another cult diet.
+
+[15:50] What do you think? Like, truly, what do you think? About what? About what Dave is saying. What am I saying?
+
+[15:56] I I'm asking them what you're saying. I'm asking them, what do you think of what Dave is saying? No, no, no, no. What do you think I am saying? I'm not going to decipher it for them.
+
+[16:06] I'm asking them. I don't want to hear what they think about what I said until they tell me what they think I said. Because you say you're saying you're not playing a lot of you're not placing a lot of importance on your discounting food science. I'm not discounting food science. I think that it's nutritional science.
+
+[16:29] What? Nutritional science. I'm not even discount. No, like I am discounting cults. I am discounting cults.
+
+[16:39] Okay. Because I haven't watched a documentary produced by someone who probably believes in the cult. Okay. Like, I don't believe in cults. If it's real, great.
+
+[16:52] Sounds like a cult to me. I mean, listen, he's, you know, these people, and especially in this documentary, they're all athletes at the very top of their game. Again, like, yes, practice, you know, working out, money, all that definitely plays into it, but like you can't discount, I don't think, you know, that diet plays a hugely important role into that. And I agree with Nasafia. You know, maybe 5% is a little too much, but even if it makes them two or three percent better than the other people, you know, like in this case in tennis, then like do it.
+
+[17:20] If it seems if that seems to be the thing that's working and making the change, like I think there's something to it. And to perform at the level that these people perform at, again, like you can't just be shoveling random stuff into your body. It needs to be. Did I say shovel random stuff into your body? Did I say eat hot pockets, aka poo pockets?
+
+[17:42] Then what are you saying you should eat, Dave, to be at the top of your game? I don't know. I'm not an expert in that. I don't care. I'm not a cult leader.
+
+[17:50] And I'm also not like a performance athlete. But I just looked at the biggest. It's chicken breasts and eggs. And that's the fastest freaking good dude that that's lived in my lifetime. The man doesn't like broccoli, he eats it.
+
+[18:04] He's eggs. He would be faster. Maybe he'd be faster. No, maybe not. Maybe faster than the fastest.
+
+[18:11] What I'm saying is that this is this is just cult language. And 20 years ago, 30 years ago, it was a different cult. People were like, I need to eat nothing but beefsteak and protein. It's and they say that in this documentary. Okay.
+
+[18:25] The cults change from week to week. Okay. This is good. No, this is good. This that was bad.
+
+[18:31] Everything we knew before is bad. Do this. Like people need to make money. They need a new cult. Whatever.
+
+[18:37] And so and someone who's like an amazing person. But it's also good for the environment to not have all these cows everywhere and killing fucking like all of the the the um Why are you back on meat? It's not the only issue in this thing. Like meat is not the only That's the only issue I'm talking about in this because V. Well, yeah, but you're not that's not what we're talking about.
+
+[18:56] You want it to be I'm saying something against meat and I uh against vegetarianism, and that's not what I'm saying. So like you can't make me be saying that because that's not what I'm saying. Okay. I'm saying I don't like food cults. I think they are bad for the world.
+
+[19:14] I think they are bad for Americans, I think they are bad for our overall health, and definitely bad for our pocketbooks, because we spend all this money on crazy stuff. What he is is vegan. No, he's not just vegan. You have to bo you have to triple boil his nuts. He has a crazy dietary cultural boil his nuts and make sure that there's not all of these weird triggers in his diet.
+
+[19:41] That is not normal diet. That's a cult diet. David J. Foster's in chat, and I believe this is relevant to this. He says, he says, Dave, what do you think about oat bran?
+
+[19:55] Oh my god, trolling me. Is this a cult thing? Or is this a oh okay? I don't know what's going on. Yeah, like, so it's like there's a famous, famous thing from the 80s called the oat rush, where everyone, I think that's what you're talking about, where it was there was a very bad study.
+
+[20:10] I mean, no one's a bad study, but you know, it was like the too many conclusions were drawn from it, where and it's paid for by the oat people, that if you consumed X amount of oat bran, your cholesterol would go down. So like everybody like you know, was like you know, jumping out of windows trying to get oat bran into their into their um into their products, and it's called the Great Oat Rush. And it was it's all horse hock, it's all garbage. It's it's all it's all filth, it's all lies. You know what I mean?
+
+[20:40] It's like, is oat brand bad for you? No. I'm sure that like a diet containing oat bran is can be a great diet. Oh, there's I like oat brand, I like oats. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[20:55] But to build a cult around oats, that's bananas. Well, I do think that if you are an athlete, you have a nutritionist and a person that's constantly monitoring you, and someone that's on top of this and that, and a million people that have a stake in your game. And so I imagine that whatever they're doing, whatever they're asking for, they're asking for it because they've done some research on this human that supplies their paychecks. So there's that. I mean, look, I think that's 100% true, right?
+
+[21:32] So it's like if you if you have enough money to have full-time people and you're doing blood labs constantly, and you like know what your like, you know, what the glucose levels in your blood are all throughout the day, and you know all of your oxygenation levels, and you're doing all of these metrics that you know we do maybe once a year at best, and then they can like ramp individual things that you eat up and down so that you get those numbers exactly where you want it. Yeah, that's spending money for performance. Like that's like Formula One racing stuff. Like that's all true, right? However, it's like in in cooking, right?
+
+[22:08] One of the things I don't like about Cooks Illustrated and that whole theory of how things work is they're like the best brownies, the best cookies, as though there is one best way. The best way to have the optimum nutrition in terms of just using your body as a machine, is to have paid people sit around and do lab work on you constantly and tweak you up and down. But no one is saying that that's what we should do. Instead, they're convincing my poor parents to eat crazy cult food. Do you see the difference?
+
+[22:40] They're just saying that you're not going to be able to get that kind of care and lab work that these people are getting, but they but the people that are getting this care and doing the lab work at this level, the overarching theme is plant-based. Among this group of people, among this group of people. So who's the other group? Usain Bull. I just told you.
+
+[23:01] He's the first person I thought of. I was like, who's the best athlete in a field that I can ever think of? Usain Bull. And what does he eat? Eggs and chicken.
+
+[23:11] All day long. And pasta. He's pasta, eggs, and chicken. Okay. So what I'm saying is is that does this subgroup of athletes, do they believe it?
+
+[23:24] And believing something can make you better at something, by the way. We all know that, right? So it's like, sure, great. And you know, I'm sure that if my parents had the money to like have a team of doctors round the clock, like tweaking every blood level, and they didn't care about living their life like real persons and just wanted to turn their bodies into machines. I don't know why, you know, 60-something and almost 70-year-old person would want to do that, but okay, you know.
+
+[23:51] Meanwhile, I'll keep eating tomatoes and gluten, thank you, even when I'm not having meat. And I will eat my nuts as I like them, and I will not boil them. Great. Alright. Do we have me?
+
+[24:08] Uh listener questions. Oh, it's a cult. It's just damaging. It just really is damaging. It's also like I also hate like food as food as a as a proxy for morality.
+
+[24:18] I hate food as a proxy for um behavior. It's like food is food, right? If you're a like, like I say, like the equivalent of a Formula One car and human. Why don't you talk about your diet that you did many, many, many years ago? I've done that diet a bunch of times.
+
+[24:36] The blunch diet. Yeah. The blunch diet. Talk about why you did that. And because I wanted to get thinner.
+
+[24:43] And what was it? Blunch? Mm-hmm. You all familiar with brunch? Yeah.
+
+[24:50] No. No. Okay, Stas. Here's being a joke. I'm not even gonna deal with you.
+
+[24:54] I don't even deal with you. Crap on you. I'm done with you. Go on. Talk about the diet.
+
+[25:00] Why? You're being a jerk. I'm not. Just talking about. You said you didn't know what brunch is.
+
+[25:05] Was joking, Dave. Everyone knows what brunch is. Apparently not. Go ahead. So brunch, and here's what I was looking for, and Nastasia wouldn't even do the setup, right?
+
+[25:16] Brunch is when you combine breakfast and lunch because you want to. Right? That's brunch with an R. Blunch is when you decide to eat only one meal a day other than dinner. So the blunch diet is all about my one my theory about uh dieting is uh in in terms of I have two theories about dieting.
+
+[25:40] One, and these are not these are not real. This is my own personal, this is like my own personal cult slash religious beliefs, but the it does work, right? In terms of if your only goal is to lose lose weight, right? Is if you can if you choose what you eat on a day-to-day basis, it's hard to stay eating kind of like it within a very like small pro set of parameters. Also, uh, if you have a lot of different things that you eat all the time, like you find it interesting, and so you tend to eat more.
+
+[26:11] If you just choose one thing that you can have for your uh your eat your your your blunch, right? And then that's all you eat all the way up to um to dinner time, right? Then you don't crave anything anymore, really, because you know what you're gonna have. So I've done like I've done it like two, three times, and the first time I did blunch, the blunch was an everything bagel with nothing on it. That was blunch.
+
+[26:39] And then that was all I had. Very effective. I dropped a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of weight. And then at dinner, like 60 pounds. At dinner, right, you you can have, you know, you know you're not supposed to go crazy, but you eat with other people.
+
+[26:53] So the idea is that during the daytime, when you're not eating with other people, you just do blunch. And then at dinner time, you you eat whatever everyone else is eating, so you get to be social, right? And the theory there is is that your body really, you know, if if you're combining all of your eating into one section, your body can't process everything uh uh as effectively as if you ate over a like a long period of time, which is why people who want to have their food processed effectively space their meals out into lots of small meals. I don't want my body to process it. I want to poop out as much as is humanly possible.
+
+[27:23] In the and I've said this on the show before, like in the extreme, think about it this way. If you ate a gallon of oil, what you would do, if you drank it, what you would do is go directly to the toilet and poop out a gallon of oil. Your body would not be able to uh to process it. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Blunch, like in my case, works.
+
+[27:41] I've done the bagel blunch. The problem with the bagel blunch was I also lost an immense amount of muscle mass during that. The other problem with blunch is that you um you get real angry around dinner time, like real angry, like very angry around dinner time. Uh later blunches, I do the two-eg blunch, the two hard-boiled egg blunch, and that works, and you don't lose as much muscle mass. And I don't believe in it because I don't yeah, I don't try to cotton to anyone that has an axe to grind in nutritional science, but there's a lot of people now who are into intermittent fasting.
+
+[28:13] So the blunch diet is now called intermittent fasting by people, and a lot of people do it and take special nutritional subs um what's it called supplements so they don't lose too much muscle mass during the blunch diet. But the blunch diet works for me. I don't advocate it for other people though. But there you have it blunch. Is that what you wanted me to say, Stas?
+
+[28:31] Yep. And why did you want me to talk about that? No reason. I'd rather do the vegan diet that I'm doing here than do that. That sounds miserable.
+
+[28:40] How do you even of course you're cranky by dinner time? You're not getting any nutrients. Well, I'm not doing it for performance. You don't get to like there is no actual diet wherein you eat whatever you want and you lose weight unless you like radically increase the your your amount of uh energy expenditure. No, there's not.
+
+[29:01] No, you no, no, yeah. I'm saying I'm saying, of course, I agree with you. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I there's not. Yeah.
+
+[29:06] So if you want to lose weight, hey, it's gonna suck. And then at least the advantage of blunch is that at dinner time you can be a normal once you get the first couple of bites of food in and your anger subsides, you can be a normal person. Eat whatever ever everyone else is eating. I'm giving up this, I'm giving up that. No, I'm giving up choice, and I'm giving up like eating normal meals during the day.
+
+[29:34] Boom. That's what I give up. Uh but I tell you what, two eggs, that's real cheap. I don't have to like sit there and like boil $50 worth of nuts and tuss the tuss toss the boiling water up. And I'm not recommending it for anybody else.
+
+[29:52] Okay. Lunch. But why do you want you want me to talk about that stuff? No reason. What we should instead talk about is a Jeff Deep Fryer.
+
+[30:07] Why would you want me to talk about it for no reason, though? What does that mean? There's gotta be a reason. Like what reason? I thought about that one.
+
+[30:16] I don't advocate it, but uh it does work. This episode is brought to you by Omsom, your new pantry staple that brings proud, loud Asian flavors into your home kitchen. Omsom partners with iconic Asian chefs to create rip and pour starters, which pack all the specialty sauces, aromatics, and seasonings needed to cook specific Asian dishes. No more diluted dishes, no more cultural compromise, just bold Asian flavors at your fingertips, sitting right in your pantry between the tomato sauce and the olive oil. Learn more at Omsom.com.
+
+[30:57] That's O M S O M.com. Um what are we talking about? John Cajun Chef Deep Friars. Is there any major benefit? Well, those on about deep friars.
+
+[31:13] Speaking of speaking, speaking of angry, so Nastasia Lopez made friends. No, Nastasia Lopez was gonna make friends with uh uh a crow, but she hated the crow, so she chased it off. Then felt she's making friends with some hawks, and then she's made friends with my least favorite of all birds. She made friends with some geese, unbeknownst to me. Unbeknownst to me.
+
+[31:35] Now, Nastasia Lopez, what? Never visit, so you wouldn't know. I talk to you every day. You how do I know about the how do I know about the hawk and the and the crow? I know because I talked to you about the geese too.
+
+[31:49] No, you didn't. Not until after this happened. No, Dave. I told you about the geese. Remember we had that bet.
+
+[31:53] You're like, I'm gonna come back in spring, right? With the babies. Oh, I you know, you said, why do you find geese so terrifying? Yeah, I said they're not that bad. I walk straight through their gaggle, I guess.
+
+[32:08] And I said, wait till they have babies. And I know I said they're super cute. And then you said you're gonna come back and do something to them. I forget what we're gonna do. We're like, anyway, the point is is that so like when I had a place in Connecticut, I had a uh a deep fry, an outdoor deep fryer.
+
+[32:24] It wasn't an outdoor deep fryer like the Cajun Fryer that we're gonna talk about in a minute. It was an indoor commercial stainless steel fryer that I had fitted to run on propane. So it's not the kind of thing, honestly, that you should leave outside all the time uncovered, but what it is is a great kind of if you're gonna have an outdoor event that you're gonna run off of propane, it's a great fryer for that. And it's it's fairly easy to take any commercial gas equipment and retrofit it for propane. You just need the you know, a different orifice and you know, you need to change a couple of things.
+
+[32:56] Uh, and so, anyways, uh, so when I moved out of Connecticut, I was like, hey Stas, let's put this there in case we ever have parties or anything we can fry, and then we we never did. So Nastasia's like, get it the hell out. Is that what you said? Yeah. One way, you know, pretty much.
+
+[33:13] So I was like, okay. Yeah. So I came to throw it in my Subaru, and of course, I'm there. My two dogs, Booker, Dax, and Jen, my wife, we're all there, and everyone has some sort of opinion about how to like whether this fryer should go into the you know tr uh Subaru, whether or not it's okay to store it at my sister-in-law's house, whether I have permission to store it at my sister-in-law's house. And I'm like, I don't care about any of this.
+
+[33:43] I'm putting it in a car now, right? Was I wrong? Yeah, that fit. It fit. But like, why did I need a whole bunch of opinions at that point?
+
+[33:52] It seemed like in retrospect, it seems like I should have sat around and discussed people's feelings about how to get this thing into the back of the Subaru and where it was going to end up in life and what my long-term life plans were for the fryer. But all I had in my head is Nastasia Lopez wants this thing out of her house. I'm driving past her house, which I don't usually do. I have a car, I'm gonna shove it into the car. That's all I'm thinking.
+
+[34:16] Was I with that completely off base there, Sash? Should I have been like, should we have had some sort of like a sit-down? No. Right, right. So, as Nastasia pointed out later, was I in the best mood?
+
+[34:29] No. No. So these freaking geese are on Nastasi has a beautiful lawn, right? It's a beautiful lawn. It's like, imagine having like a mowed lawn that somebody else mows for you that is like right on the water.
+
+[34:48] It's like it goes lawn, rock wall, and you can fish right from the lawn into the thing. No pesky sand. You know I hate sand. No sand. Great lawn, right?
+
+[34:58] The only problem with it is what? The geese. So I don't know Nastasia's friends with these geese. I I I in retrospect now. I remember I made a bet that when they have when they have goslings, we can go, you can name it Ryan, and we can go and chase after it, and we can watch the mama.
+
+[35:14] Anyway, so I see these geese and I'm like, I I I hate you so like I was I hate you so much. I hate geese, Canadian geese. Not because they're Canadian, but whatever. And uh, yeah, so I tore after them and Nastasia's like, they're my friends, they're frightening them. Did they come back?
+
+[35:32] Are they still there? No, they did not come back. Nastasia, what are you making up lies for? Come on, really? Yeah, really.
+
+[35:40] Well, you know what, people? For any of you who've ever lived in Westchester or have ever lived in Connecticut, apparently you can hire me to show up on your lawn, and when I scare these geese, they stay scared because people spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars at airports, hotels, anywhere that has a big lawn to try to keep these geese away from their place so that there won't be all the squawking and pooping and pooping and squawking and molesting people. So if I solo person have enough anger inside of me to scare away these geese for good, I'm sorry that I did that to you because you want them there, but maybe that should be our business instead of selling torch attachments and and and centerfuges. Yes. Speaking of uh Sears Alls, why don't you tell us the latest news on Amazon?
+
+[36:37] Oh, well, they're back in stock, right, John? Yes. Well, back in stock and shipping out next week. Yeah, so they're not actually back in stock. Yeah.
+
+[36:46] You can pre-order them. Yes. Alright, all right. Uh do you wanna want to tell this about what? Why don't you just why don't you say it quickly?
+
+[36:54] Alright. I thought you wanted to tell. No, no, no. Just the the this usual thing. They don't know, they don't pay us on time because we can't prove that we put all the Sears alls on the boat.
+
+[37:04] So you might have the you might have the impression listening to this program that I'm the one who always gets angry. But nothing is more joyous than when Nastasia Lopez loses her cool on like the UPS, on Amazon, uh, you know, like a like a lot of it not repeatable on a on a family on a family program. And um so again, to reiterate, and we give the Sears alls to Amazon, which we did months and months ago, in uh at Shenzhen in China, and they own them from that point, and then they habitually don't apparently don't even ship them over here. I don't know why it's taking so long to get them into stock, but then uh they claim that they haven't received them in the United States, and they want proof that they ship them, right? Which is crazy.
+
+[37:55] So Nastasi and I were like like called our factory in China. We're like, I want you to take a video of you and pictures of you handing the pallets, and I want pictures, I want both of you smiling, holding the contract, and shaking hands. And if you're not smiling, I'm not paying, right? And then Nastasia then sends this to our Amazon contact, and our Amazon contact goes, We don't accept video proof of delivery. Like, you dumb bastard.
+
+[38:29] Like, like this is what we do with people. From So what what will they accept as proof? They want to see the bill that they signed? That they signed as proof. But they want actually proof that it arrived in the US, right?
+
+[38:44] Yeah. They want to see the bill of lading, the bill that that arrived at the warehouse that they signed. And I'm like, I don't know how to. I don't know. You work there.
+
+[39:00] And then I said, Dave and I are totally have the time to get part-time jobs in an Amazon warehouse, and he was like, that's not funny. You're like, no, but we'll do it. You're like, no, but we'll do it. But look, I'll give you I've used many analogies. Maybe people in the US get this one, get this one more.
+
+[39:18] It's like you went to the grocery store, right? They handed you the receipt, right? And then you got home, right? And you're like, you go and you're like, where are the Fritos? Honey, I bought Fritos.
+
+[39:38] You look at the receipt, the receipt says Fritos, right? They scanned it, and you're like, maybe they didn't put it into the bag at the store. So you drive back to the store, and you're like, you didn't put the Frito in my bag. And then they look at the video tape, and the videotape clearly shows the cash register person putting the Fritos into the bag, and you taking the bag of Fritos and putting it into your cart and going out to the car. And you're like, well, I don't know.
+
+[40:04] It never made it into my house, so I'm not paying for the Fritos. And that's basically what they're doing. Yeah. You know? So it's legitimate.
+
+[40:14] Maybe they didn't put the Fritos in the bag. We've all had that happen. I hope you eat Fritos, because Fritos are delicious. But we've all had it happen. But then when you go, when you show them the videotape and the receipt, and you're like, look, we clearly we scanned it.
+
+[40:27] It's here. Here's the Fritos. Nine times out of ten, by the way, you left a bag on the counter, which is what Amazon is doing. We hand them all the bags, we put it in the cart, they leave the bag in the cart, and they put the cart in into the cart bin and they drive away and they leave the Fritos in the cart. That's what Amazon is doing.
+
+[40:44] Anyway. How many of them box stas? Do you remember? 27. I know.
+
+[40:56] Uh God, like when you were at Stanford, did you ever think like that someone would ask you how many units in a palette? And you'd be like, oh, 27. No. And that ass hat at Amazon was like, you know, I know this is really hard for you guys, but you use your Stanford brain to get around Amazon. Oh man.
+
+[41:22] And that's why I named one of the invoices F U Amazon. So we had another incident, semi-food related. So, like, we it turns out that if you do business with Booker and Dax LLC, the I guess parent company of uh along with Heritage Radio of the Cooking Issues program. It's a company affair here. Um, you like odds are eventually you'll get a nickname.
+
+[41:49] At first it'll be because I don't remember who you are, or maybe it's because you've done something crazy. I'm not gonna say what it is, right? Or maybe it's because you've done something crazy, or maybe it doesn't have to be any of those. It could just be like whatever, it just happens, right? And so then, and by the way, this is separate.
+
+[42:05] Like, like in the real life, when you meet Nastasia Lopez, you will get entered into her phone along with a descriptor. And so, right or wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, mine says Dave douche, right?
+
+[42:14] No, there's just a picture of your head on my buddy. The my buddy doll. Anyway. Uh so, like Peter Kim, like Nastasia's known him for like what, like 10 years now or something like this? Yeah.
+
+[42:35] Still Peter Lawyer in the phone. He hasn't been a lawyer in like eight years. Anyway. Um, where were I say? So you have a nickname.
+
+[42:43] So then what happens is is that like I I'm writing like an email, you know, like semi serious email, and I I use the nickname in the thing so that everyone will know what I'm talking about. And it's not a bad nickname. It's like we have some bad nicknames, right? It wasn't one of the bad nicknames. Not offensive nicknames, just not, you know, pleasant.
+
+[43:00] You know what I'm saying? And but this one's fine. It's there's nothing. And Nastasia forwards it to him, right? Yeah.
+
+[43:06] Well, that's when I didn't have internet, and it was just easier to get the answer by forwarding the em the email with the question in it. And the guy was like, What is this? He's also the guy that I accidentally sent a naked picture of Dave to. So not actually a naked picture anymore. Dave's head on Daniel Radcliffe's naked body.
+
+[43:25] So and I did not create this photo, neither did I send it. I was not involved in the creation. And if you were around. I I was uh I'm alive and I work with the people who did it, but I never once forwarded this or created this or had anything to do with it. I just want to be clear that everyone who can hear me right now, that I had nothing to do with the creation or promulgation of this.
+
+[43:54] You can just stop now, because this section of the show never made it into the final cut. No matter what you say right now, it never got set. I'm just saying I had nothing to do with it. And it got forwarded to a work contact. So that there that happened.
+
+[44:09] That was, as we say, en français, the real life. So did the person totally blow up about the nickname? Well, so it so happens that it wasn't just he wasn't the only person CC'd, his entire law firm was CC'd. This is really one other person. And so, like one of his co-workers is like, Hell you talking about?
+
+[44:32] And so then we had to explain to everyone if you work with us, you'll probably get a nickname. If you don't like this, we'll change it. But then, as I think it was Nastasia said, but just remember, the next one may be worse. No, I did not say that. Right?
+
+[44:51] Anyways. Uh, all right. From Daniel uh Wallingworth via the Instagram. Hey Dave, I'm looking to get a Cajun deep fryer. Is there any major benefit in getting the six-gallon fryer over the four-gallon?
+
+[45:04] Daniel, two gallons, baby. Uh, I don't know. I forget Wiley has one and he likes it. The um unlike the fryer that I was talking about before, which is made of stainless, this one is uh the ones that he has not made of stainless. They are painted to be outside, but what they have that a regular fryer doesn't is an integrated watershedding cover that covers the vents and covers the oil so that you can walk away from it and leave it outside uh and it works.
+
+[45:32] So a larger fryer is going to give you a uh a bigger batch size uh to be able to fry effectively without getting too much uh oil temperature drop, but you're using uh you're using like 50% more oil per time you load it. So, you know, if you're doing smaller batches, right? Like normal human being-sized batches for like a family of like 10, right? Four gallon is well, what do I normally run? Mine was I I don't think in gallon, I think in pounds.
+
+[46:04] Like I like a an a good small size fryer is 40 pounds of oil. I don't know how many gallons that is, right? A 40-pound fryer. So in a in a 40-pound fryer is a good size, even to feed up to like 12, 13 people, because you're not also abusing it at home, right? Because you're only frying for an hour or two.
+
+[46:20] Uh but it but the thing is is that at home, if you're not filtering your oil properly or you're not taking care of it, your oil's not gonna last very long. So it's gonna get a lot more expensive if you're using a six-gallon fryer and you don't need it because you're gonna be throwing your oil away pretty much just as often as if you had a four-gallon fryer, but you're just gonna be throwing away an extra two gallons each time. And so kind of that's that's what I'd say about that. The other problem with the problem, the other issue to realize uh uh about the Cajun fryer is that um a real commercial fryer, right, has a uh a thermostat on it, and you can set the temperature and it fires up and then turns off, right? Uh Cajun Fryer does not.
+
+[47:05] Cajun fryer is just got like a throttle on it, and you have to tune it up and down just like a pot fryer on a on a stove, right? And it's shaped like a commercial fryer, like it has the fryer shape, the uh fryer kettle, but I can't remember if it's a tube fryer or not. I think it is. Anyway, Wiley likes his, but just remember it's not thermostatically controlled. Uh, and uh, you know, anything over 40-pound fryer, unless you're frying commercially for large groups of people, is gilding the lily, in my opinion.
+
+[47:37] Uh Sergio Torrin wrote in via Instagram. Hope you guys are good and experiencing what quarantine joy is left. Oh, joy, right, Stas. You're loving it, no? Loving it.
+
+[47:46] Loving it. Loving it. What is it? Vegan, celibate, sober. This one's for you.
+
+[47:51] Uh, what's his name? Tennis player? No. Djokovic? Who?
+
+[47:56] No. Can't remember his name. Do you remember John? No. You know what I'm talking about.
+
+[48:01] How many of those are by choice? Just a vegan? Yeah. Yeah. I guess sober too, right?
+
+[48:09] Well, that's just because I told you that, like, whatever. Anyway. Um. Uh, where would I start looking into info for any books you could recommend on how to use starches in cooking? I know you're not writing that book anymore.
+
+[48:21] No comments, Nastasia, please. Haven't you been mean enough to me already today? I'm over it. It's never gonna get written anyway. See what I'm saying?
+
+[48:29] You couldn't help yourself. Is it gonna get written, John? I doubt it. I doubt it. Guys are the worst, man.
+
+[48:37] You know what? You know what Nastasia said that about? Liquid intelligence. She said the exact same thing. You had Maria on your ass.
+
+[48:43] You had no choice. You know what? I'm not, I'm not like, I'm not Dax. I'm not like, you know, his responsibilities to turn in the It's not Welching. It's not Welching.
+
+[48:58] First of all, I need to know this. Is Welching a slur against the Welch? Oh, I didn't even know it was related. I don't know, so I'm asking. Is it Well Shing or Well Ching?
+
+[49:10] We say Welching in my family, not Welshing. Welching. Ching with a CH, right? Someone just wanted to look that up for us. Well, actually, it's Welsh, but in the present part present participle, Welching failed to honor a debt or obligation incurred through a promise or agreement.
+
+[49:31] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No one likes a Welcher. They're the worst. I'd rather have you, I'd rather have you be uh, you know, uh almost anything.
+
+[49:39] But like, is it uh isn't it like a a crack against the Welsh people? That's what I'm asking. Uh okay. You know. Yeah.
+
+[49:48] Someone else someone will find out. The dictionary speculates, maybe, but it says it doesn't know. So it's unknown origin. Yeah, right. I I I I believe etymology is like I believe in dietary cults.
+
+[49:59] Uh like nine times out of ten, they're horse crap. You know what I mean? Not nine times. Often they're horse crap, especially in the food world. John, you you have to agree with me there, right?
+
+[50:08] Yeah, yeah. I'll agree with that. Yeah. Uh all right, on starches. So I don't know what your uh kind of technical bent is, uh, Sergio, but um, they're somewhat outdated, but the Egan Press uh books are fairly easy to get uh online uh and they are a fairly good um uh what's the word I'm looking for?
+
+[50:35] Uh introduction to starches and the terminology of starches. Uh and then there are some fantastically expensive books on starches. Um I forgot to look them up in in advance of this, but a lot of them can be kind of, I'm not gonna say illegally downloaded, but they can be illegally downloaded. Um but I would start with the Egan Press books um because they're you can absorb it in like an afternoon, and once you absorb the Egan Press book, you'll be able to read all of the technical literature. And then uh I can't remember what National Starch changed their name to, but they have a bunch of online documentation about individual starches, and they actually used to point you to the Egan Press book.
+
+[51:15] So even though those books are now probably 15, 16 years old, I mean, starch has changed, hasn't changed that much. So I would go look at that. It's a good like hundred page, like, you know, nicely laid out introduction, as are most of their books, by the way. So like um, and by the way, when they're doing starch, they're not doing flour, they have a separate book on wheat flour. Uh that a good enough answer or no?
+
+[51:39] Yeah, yeah, that works. They can always follow up if they have uh more questions. All right. Hey Dave. All right, hey Dave, you don't know me.
+
+[51:46] My name is uh Maite Cabrera, I'm from Chile. I've never been to Chile. You guys ever been to Chile? No. Oh, no.
+
+[51:52] I've always wanted to go, never been. Where am I gonna go? Anyway, I would love to go though. Uh uh I work in a bar, I'm reading your book, Liquid Intelligence, and I still cannot understand how to measure how much water uh of dilution to add to a cocktail to cocktails by the pitcher. For your example, you're in Manhattan.
+
+[52:14] Uh I don't have perfect perfect English, so maybe the answer is in the pages, uh, but I still can't find it. Can you help me find out? Thanks for your time. And sorry if it's too weird to ask. Uh thanks.
+
+[52:24] It's not too weird, and as um as my wife tells me, my like if you I wish she did this for a living because she's so good at it, but the problem is she's good at her real job too. But she's like a fantastic editor, my wife. And so she's like, uh, she says, if, you know, if you can't understand it, you probably shouldn't blame yourself. You should probably blame the writer. Probably my fault.
+
+[52:44] Um, you know what I mean? Because I didn't explain it well enough. Uh, otherwise it would have been clear. Um, and I didn't get a chance before the show to go reread the the section. But uh back when I was writing, I was writing that book probably, it came out in 2015, I was probably writing it in 2013, right?
+
+[53:07] And uh at that time, a lot of people had kind of they would drastically radically underestimate the amount of water that was in a cocktail, like by a lot. Uh and because people were throwing around numbers. They would just use the word dilution and they would say this has 20% dilution, which is a standard thing people would say. And and I was like, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm taking the base recipe and adding 20% to it?
+
+[53:35] And no one would know. You would ask people and they wouldn't even know what they said. So what I did when I was writing the book, and what you can do when you're trying to figure out uh dilution, and if you don't care about being a hundred percent accurate, I'm gonna give you the simplest, because in the book I remember writing it, I was real really complicated. And I went into like all like because you have to worry about how much liquid is left on your ice cubes, you have to worry about like, you know, these weird thermal effects and all this. Just do this.
+
+[54:06] Like uh take your drink, pour it, you know, take take your the the drink that you've made, right? That before you dilute it, right? A standard way for Manhattan. Let's say just mix a Manhattan, right? Then weigh it.
+
+[54:21] Then stir it how you normally would tell you like it, and then strain it, but be very careful. Try to get as much liquid off as you can off of the ice, right? Then weigh it again. And almost all of I mean all of that is water. Now, again, there's some difference because some of the cocktails still left on your ice cubes and whatnot.
+
+[54:45] But water is very interesting because one gram of water is also one CC, is one milliliter of water. So you can very easily, if you just if you if you do your initial recipe in milliliters or ounces or whatever you want, uh, and then you weigh it, you can figure out how much water was added to it. And even without doing any sort of like complicated math, you're gonna be within five or six percent of the correct answer, like right away. And then just make one with the water, make sure you chill it first before you taste it, otherwise it won't taste right, and see whether you're right. And what I always do is I'll I'll do it, and then I'll add a little bit more water to the drink that I've already made to see whether or not I like it better, more diluted.
+
+[55:33] And as Tobi Cicchini said, and I believe him, uh, the older you get, like the more diluted you tend to like your cocktails, which is an interesting fact. Straight spirits, I still want to be straight, but as I get older, I do like things a little less uh a little more diluted. I don't know. Uh you got none of you guys are old enough to have this phenomenon have happened to you yet. Um, as far as I can tell.
+
+[56:00] But have you have you guys noticed a difference in your preferences over time in your of your life? No. No, not too much yet. I also like things drier than I do. I like things drier.
+
+[56:15] I like things uh things drier, and um I like things slightly more diluted than I used to. But in general, with cocktails, especially if you're a bartender, like you tend to like things on the less diluted side. And so it's a good idea to try stuff with a little extra dilution, just add a splash of water, see whether it changes it for better or for worse. If nothing else, you're gonna learn whether or not your recipe is robust enough to stand a difference of dilution. Uh from oh, by the way, I want to give a shout out.
+
+[56:47] Uh when I was in the Berkshires, I forgot to mention this like weeks ago when I was in the Berkshires. I was gonna give a shout out last week, but then Nastasia Lopez's house was knocked down by the big bad wolf. What was that? What was that tropical storm called? Ooh.
+
+[57:03] Um Isaiah, wasn't it? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So like literally the reason Nastasia left was not merely because she was disgusted with me, but because her power was completely wiped out for a full week, right? So uh the first week that she left, this was two weeks ago, I guess.
+
+[57:22] Like, she left in like in the last five minutes because like her house just completely turned off in this windstorm, right? And then the week after that, she was just starting to get stuff back, and some idiot knocked over her uh internet, and that's why we didn't have it last week. And then this week she told me before we got on air that her internet is like someone has taken like an Ethernet cord and run it all the way across Stanford, like to her house, right? Is that what happened? It's true, yeah.
+
+[57:51] There's like a cord going across your lawn. Yes, it's so crazy. Anyways, so uh I wanted to give it a shout out to uh Aaron Auster, friend of ours from uh formerly from Chesare's World and the French Culinary and the Italian program. I went to his place AOK uh barbecue in the Berkshire's right by Mass Mocha, right when Mass Mocha opened, and uh had a good time. So I wanted to give him a shout out.
+
+[58:12] Check him out if you are in the air. He's actually in the parking lot of Mass Mocha. And so what's nice for him, I guess, uh, is that um is that that kind of that whole parking lot of Mass Mocha, they're not really having people park there. They've turned that entire front parking lot into outdoor dining, and so it's kind of cool. Anyway, um uh what is this?
+
+[58:37] Uh what do you think this is? What do you think this person's name is? How do I break? Is it Joe Accord? Joe Art I think it's Joe Covander.
+
+[58:46] Joe A Covander. All right. Uh I've taken the science and cooking Harvard course uh where you participated. I have a question in respect to the egg cooking section where you show that a at 54 degrees Celsius, the egg maintains uh its form. Uh I don't think 54, I do 57, but yeah, the egg maintains its form, i.e.
+
+[59:06] it's raw form. And then you add that uh and you add that that egg is uh been freed of salmonella issues. Have you got an article webpage that provides more information about it? Because I couldn't find much info in my country. Uh science food in in in my country's uh food science department tell me that 71 degrees Celsius, and my cooking school tells me you use greater than 65 degrees Celsius.
+
+[59:27] If you look up the thermal death curves for Salmonella, there's no thermal death curve for Salmonella that uh I mean I I wouldn't say 54, 57 is what is what I do. And um 57, if you look at the thermal death curves for Salmonella is plenty to kill Salmonella. Those higher numbers for killing salmonella are um because they want you to reach it and only hold it for 15 seconds. Uh I am holding uh this temperature for like 45 minutes or an hour, at which point it's pasteurized. Um so if you just look up at the FSIS, if you look up their salmonella thermal desk curves, and again, they're using things for uh meats, which are actually more difficult to kill salmonella in than an egg because the temperature distribution is harder to get uh right across it because in general it's easier, I think.
+
+[1:00:18] My memory serves, is general it's easier to kill bacteria in very highly aqueous solutions. Um my other question is if the structure at 54 degrees, remember 57, uh if the structure of 54 uh Celsius keep uh keeps the egg uh into its regular composition or form, is it changed in any way? At 54, it shouldn't change much. At 57, after an hour, it's slightly thicker. I've done tests where I have uh used uh pasteurized eggs done this way in cocktails and then unpasteurized eggs, and there is a slight, slight difference, but it's very slight.
+
+[1:00:53] So uh obviously its composition reform has changed in some way, but in a very, very uh slight way. You can't cook it at 57 degrees Celsius forever. It will eventually start setting up on you, but if you do it for an hour, it uh should be good. Uh from Interlude Coffee and Tea, um this is in reference to Jack Shram from existing conditions, posting on bottling with liquid nitrogen. So, what we do at the bar is we take our bottles and then we pour or like we're gonna put a Manhattan in, for instance, because Manhattan's oxidized, and we pour a little liquid nitrogen in.
+
+[1:01:24] We put the cap on top, don't seal it, and then we let the liquid nitrogen boil off, vapor comes out, it looks really cool, and then as soon as you stop seeing the condensation come out, you cap it, and the the liquid nitrogen by boiling off has uh gotten rid of the oxygen. So that's what we're talking about. Um I'm thinking about bottling some coffee and for my cafe coffee for my cafe, and I was wondering if you'd be able to recommend equipment that you're using for bottling. We're just using a hand capper. Specifically, how should I go about safely dosing liquid nitrogen in the bottles?
+
+[1:01:55] We just literally use a thermos. We sometimes use uh a sauce gun, a depositing funnel, uh, which I love. Uh they do leak uh a little bit, but in general, we just pour a little bit in with a thermos, and it's totally fine. You only need a little bit, and the main safety thing is just never cap it while there's still liquid nitrogen. Never cap it while they're still liquid.
+
+[1:02:15] Also remember with coffee that oxygen is not the only enemy of coffee. So I'm assuming, you know, you know what you're doing. Uh, you know, one of the advantages I think that people ha think about when they think about cold brew is that cold brew is a relatively stable coffee product, right? John, that's what do you like cold brew stash? Yeah, me neither.
+
+[1:02:38] You, Matt. He's gone. He's not thinking about it. No, my god, I just couldn't find the mirror button. Yeah, yeah, I'll do.
+
+[1:02:45] I do like cold brew. I know you are not a fan. Not a man. I'm fine with you drinking it, going back to the early thing. That's like it's not my thing.
+
+[1:02:52] John, what about you? Cold brew? No cobra. Cold brew, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:02:56] And so one of the advantages of it, right, is that it it it it doesn't um break itself down, right? It lasts. Yeah. Yeah. So um so that stuff I could see, like if you had some other products that were gonna oxidize, that doing this process with a cold brew product, you you might, you know, have like a lot of luck.
+
+[1:03:17] The problem with coffee coffee, hot brewed coffee, is that even, and I I can't remember, but I think it was Ely did the studies um, you know, years and years ago. And I I can't remember whether it was in the chemistry of quality, one of their not the not the popular book that well, popular in big air quotes, but the the technical book that they wrote. Uh I can't remember whether it's in that or whether it's in um one of the papers that they wrote where they talk about oxygen is not the only enemy, that coffee will break itself down even if you kind of package it well. And so just run some tests and be aware that purging oxygen might not be enough for a regular brewed coffee thing to maintain it the way that you that's all. What do you guys think?
+
+[1:04:04] Is that it? Is that a good answer? Did I answer this? Yep, all right. Alright.
+
+[1:04:11] Alright. So uh I feel like we spent like I feel like we spent two thirds of this thing talking about, let it go. I don't know. You're like trying to hold on to something here. What?
+
+[1:04:23] I don't know. What? You tell me it's a weird. Well I gotta let it go if you don't even know what it is. Let go of the ending of the show is what I'm saying.
+
+[1:04:31] Fair. Bye. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:04:45] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:05:03] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:05:24] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Eating Tools, unique handmade eating and cooking tools. For more information, visit eatingtools.com. This week's Meet and Three is all about food branding and identity in 2020. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Everybody has some Boya product in their pantry.
+
+[0:20] So obviously the biggest kind of laws from all of this is the students really working with a brand that they're very comfortable with, that they're very familiar with. I'll be honest, I was completely floored. I was very surprised that a company, especially in the current climate, would backtrack out of a commitment to address issues of racism. Tune in to Meet and 3, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
+
+[1:05] We got uh John in uh Alpine, New Jersey. How you doing there in Alpine? I'm doing great, thank you. Good memory, by the way. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:15] We have uh we have Matt, of course, is uh back in Rhode Island now. Rhode Island Booth. Permanently in Rhode Island? You know. Are you co- I I forget?
+
+[1:25] Are you coastal Rhode Island or interior Rhode Island? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 15 minutes from the beach walking. Ah, nice. And uh my son Booker has been waiting here because every week he waits in horror.
+
+[1:36] Part of the problem of of uh doing this from home is that my son has to tolerate the intro, and while some of our listeners enjoy the intro, my son does not. Anyways, about Matt, you mean the one who was who took help helped take care of me during my seizure control? Uh no, Matt, you never took care of it. No, I mean like who took me home from school. No, no, no.
+
+[2:00] Matt, yeah, I don't think you've met Matt in person. Oh. Oh, you're thinking of Matt Ekey, the former uh director of uh of customer service for Booker and Dax. Oh. Yes, yes.
+
+[2:10] No. I'm thinking. Yes, no, different Matt. Common name. Uh and we uh have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez calling in from a moving vehicle.
+
+[2:23] Now, correct me if I'm wrong. I have done this show from hotel rooms. I have done this show. Yeah, street literal street corner. I was sitting on like a street corner in uh former East Berlin in Germany.
+
+[2:40] Never before have we had a song of that. Yeah. It was the late 80s, yeah. Yeah, late 80s, early, early, mid mid cooking issues, early 80s. And it was uh it sucked.
+
+[2:51] First of all, what I found out is that I hate doing it from hotel rooms. Although I'd probably be enjoy it more now that I'm used to being alone and talking to you guys over things anyway. Oh, it's the difference anyway. Hotel room. Well, because you feel uh what's the word?
+
+[3:07] You feel uh, it's like you know how when you go into a uh okay, I I don't know whether you guys feel this or not, but it's like let's say there's pe let's say it's a normal time and you go over to your parents' house or whatever, and they have two bathrooms, right? And so the one bathroom is right where everyone is, and they have that one bathroom that's like way downstairs and like behind two shut doors, and you're like, I'm gonna go use that bathroom so that no one can hear me do my bathroom business, right? And then someone else invariably, when you're in there trying to get your only 30 seconds of private time when you're with the whole family, rattled at the doors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you all know what I'm talking about, right?
+
+[3:47] Yes. Yeah, yeah. So somehow doing this, doing the scream talk in a hotel room is like, and like having this conversation in a hotel room by yourself. Somehow you feel a little bit like, you know, if you feel a little, I don't know, constrained. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:04] I mean, doing the intro alone makes it like a 50% chance that the people are gonna come talk to you in about five minutes into the show. Well, the hammer once forced me to do it on a street corner on someone else's request uh in the United States, which was kind of a nightmare. Remember that, Nastasia. She must have cut out. She's gonna cut in and out because she's going from cell tower to cell tower.
+
+[4:32] She can't help it. She's like, you know, she's a moving target. I think she actually pulled over for that. Oh, there we are. Yeah, I did.
+
+[4:38] Yeah, I'm here. So uh Nastasia. Where did I force you to do it? We were somewhere near uh we were somewhere near the uh what's the name of that uh that place that uh Ricker used to run, the wine place. Well, we did it at Bass Pro, which was like a weird, it's a I'll tell you something.
+
+[5:00] A mixture of the standard Bass Pro clientele and like plus your like standard like East Coast Connecticut, like, plus your like plus your like the the crew from Bridgeport was like an interesting mix of people at that rate at that uh radio program. Remember that, Nastasia? I love you. Bye. Oh, yes, yes, I love you too, Booker.
+
+[5:20] Bye. He doesn't, I don't think he like he can't hear that you guys are talking, so he doesn't know anyone else is here. But anyway, so uh so Nastasia, you weren't privy to this, so like you know, you you don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about it. When I I have a morning call with John to talk about the state of Booker and Dax's customer service every morning, we can talk about that later.
+
+[5:43] And uh he mentioned to me, I have to go. I need to make my energy balls. Yeah. True. Yep.
+
+[5:53] So uh please explain to us what an energy ball is. So we lovingly refer to them as jokoballs. Um the better. But it's uh cashew nuts that have been boiled and dehydrated. And so I told you and Nastasia Dave, um, you know why that is, but Matt and the rest of the radio world I have.
+
+[6:15] And so he also likes all the food to be served at room temperature, and the reason for that and the boiling and dehydrating of the nuts is to make everything as easy on the digestive system as possible. Um sorry, like same kind of principle where if you're really dehydrated, you don't want to be drinking straight cold water because all the blood rushes to your stomach, and it takes a while for the water to like acclimate to body temperature, I guess, and then like be better processed. So that's the idea behind this is so that his blood doesn't like rush to his stomach to deal with all the digestive stuff that his blood can then instead be used to like go repair the muscles or you know, whatever other kind of stuff. So that's that reasoning. Um but the Jokoballs are the cashews, uh some dried figs, persimmons, uh keto, cacao powder, uh coconut oil.
+
+[7:03] What makes one cacao powder keto and another one not keto? I have no idea. I think the fat content maybe. Um I don't know. I I should pay a little more attention to that, I guess.
+
+[7:13] I don't know. I need to not that I'm not taking this seriously, but I don't know, like similar to you, Dave, in a sense, if it gets to be like super healthy and focused like that, I get to be a little dubious about things. Um I guess that's what I've been thinking about the cacao powder. But uh yeah, it's basically that, and then roll them up into little like bite-sized balls and roll them in shredded coconut. They're actually pretty good, and I don't know, it's like his energy bars that he eats throughout the day, essentially.
+
+[7:37] Yeah, all right. And but you so you had one and you in fact enjoyed it. Yeah, I would actually make this again for myself in the future. It's tasty. Now, did you do you are you allowed to have any sort of the personal feel or flair, or do you have to rigidly kind of like adhere to the energy ball spec?
+
+[7:59] Um we can we can free flow a little bit. Last week when I was here, I did some savory ones. So I uh put some mushrooms in the food processor, chopped them down, cooked them down real hard, uh roasted some carrots, put in some brown rice and a couple other things that I can't remember right now, and then just made those into little balls and rolled them in sesame seeds. They're pretty tasty. Yeah.
+
+[8:21] Hey, did I did I tell you guys last week about uh uh Dax's dirtbag buddy, Nico and his parents, like they created this uh like amazing shiitake farm on their uh in their upstate area. Did I tell you guys about this? No. You told me about that, but not on the radio, yeah. Oh my god.
+
+[8:39] So here's like uh I have pictures, it's pretty cool. So like they I guess they had a tree that fell over, and I'm not sure what they used as the nurse log for it, but they cut all of these pieces of tree into uh I don't know, they're maybe like six inches across pieces, and like maybe like two and a half feet long, and then they or three feet long, and then they drilled a bunch of holes in them, and then they tapped in like the plugs with the with the shiitake, you know, stuff, you know, and then they just lay them up against uh they just lay them up against these other trees and this board, and man, I've never seen they sprout like mud, but they're so huge compared to what you like I mean like like coffee saucers, like big, you know what I mean? Uh but what's weird about them is they have the same kind of thin stems that the commercial shiitakis do. The stem was a lot tougher than I'm used to, so I took the stems off of it, but like shiitake's thinner, right? But like the size almost of those like crazy oversized portobellos, right?
+
+[9:45] So I'm like, I don't know how these are gonna taste. But they were fantastic. I mean the stems, yeah, chewy, but the portobellos great. And she also, this lucky uh, so it's basically it's uh, you know, although Nico and Dax did like some of the drilling and helped her out, this is the mom's project. And she also all over her property has wild chanterelles.
+
+[10:05] How crazy is that? Delicious. So good. You guys like chanterelles? Yeah, I love them.
+
+[10:11] Now listen, I'm gonna tell you guys something. Uh chanterelles are sometimes uh like eaten by by bugs, right? So if you look at the chanterelle, sometimes when you look at the chanterelle, so I don't know if you guys can all picture a chanterelle, it looks kind of like a like a like a drop of water splash, like a splash that's like frozen and in orange. So you know what I'm saying? Kind of like a cross between like a trumpet and a and a water splash.
+
+[10:35] Is my making sense here? Yes, yeah. So a lot of times when you see them, uh you know, not the ones you buy, but like when you see them, like the center, they'll be like a little hole. You're like, what is that? And bugs have eaten all throughout that thing, right?
+
+[10:49] And so well, but I was like, I'm gonna look at these things anyway. So I took them anyway, even though they had been eaten a little bit, the shiitakis had no eating in it. And then um, you know, so like the what I was doing was I was shredding them almost like I was pulling them almost like string cheese. I wasn't cutting them, right? So I was pulling them almost like string cheese and then rinsing them, and I looked under I you have a dissecting microscope, and I looked under them, literally, no hint of what had eaten them.
+
+[11:17] Like nothing was there. They were 100% clean once I got the dirt off of them. So whatever it was, or whatever you see, odds are, even if you see a little bit of damage in your chanterelle, might not want to give up on it because they were delicious, and I examined them thoroughly under, you know, a fairly high power dissecting microscope and was not able to find any living critters anywhere in it. So weird. So there you have it.
+
+[11:44] Um did John already talk about the the nuts. But well, he said he ground up his nuts into his energy balls. He said he was he said his nuts he his energy balls are filled with nuts. But he claimed to have a reason. I did, yes, that's not so to make it easier on digestion, yeah.
+
+[12:04] Yeah. I I definitely want We're not gonna get into this. I definitely want the nuts in my energy balls easily digested. You know? Yeah.
+
+[12:13] Uh well, it's not called a taste ball, it's called an energy ball. But yeah, I don't know if you could hear us, Doz, but John said that if someone handed them this and ate it, and then said, Would you like another one again at some point in your life? He would say yes. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[12:28] I mean, it's cashews and like dried fruit and cacao powder and coconut fat. Yeah. Speaking of, I know some of you out there have this problem, and I'm just here to talk to you about it beforehand. You buy some nuts, and they you said cashews just came to my mind. What?
+
+[12:48] Somebody on Instagram sent you a picture of a shop called D's nuts. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, D's nuts. Yeah. Well, I wanted my uh my old manager from Booker and Dax, D.
+
+[12:58] Canonis. I wanted her to open a D's nuts thing, but you know, she had other plans. Anyway, um so like a lot of times you'll buy nuts, right? For whatever thing you're doing, energy balls, whatever. And then for whatever reason, maybe your cooking doesn't use that kind of nut that often, so they just sit around.
+
+[13:17] Has this happened to any of you? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So listen, before you use those nuts that have been sit sitting uh sitting in your kitchen for months and months and months, probably in an opened container that hasn't been oxygen flushed and hasn't been revacumed, right?
+
+[13:37] Taste them. Uh nuts can go not just stale, nuts can go rancid, right? So like I dumped, I like I was making, I forget what I was making. I was making something, and I was like, oh, cashews would be good in this. So I went and I tried to FIFO it.
+
+[13:52] I took the oldest package of open cashews I had in my house, I dumped it into the into the blender, and thank God, before I hit go, I reached in and grabbed one and ate it straight cardboard. Straight cardboard, rancid cashew. So then I had if you have if you have rancid peanuts, you can do the reasons peanut butter cups, right? Could you make the same type of peanut butter that they put inside there? That is an excellent point, Nastasia.
+
+[14:22] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know also what kind of added fats they add. Um, because you know they don't add peanut fat to uh jack the fat. You know they're too cheap for that.
+
+[14:34] But maybe maybe I shouldn't throw the stuff away. Who knows? Yeah. I'm uh it turns out I'm a wasteful weasel, as was known. John, John, you should make some some vegan.
+
+[14:49] I'm having a very hard time hearing you. What's amazing is I think she was speaking at a normal rate. And then the internet just like trailed her off like that. Here, start again. Making some vegan what?
+
+[15:03] Nope, it's still just filtering through the tubes. The tubes. One word at a time. That Alaskan senator's coming back from the dead with his series of tubes and it's not like a it's not like what'd he say? Have you ever played truck?
+
+[15:20] Yeah, but it's not like a dump truck, or it is really, it's a series of tubes. I don't know. Sometimes you'll send an email, it'll show up like a week later. At least that's what he said. Remember?
+
+[15:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Are you back full time, Stas? You were like the internet was chopping you up like a mother. No, no.
+
+[15:41] She'll tell us when she's right. Uh so we know what uh John has been cooking. Uh Matter Nastasia, anything interesting? Any culinary highlights of the past uh week or week and a half. Uh I grilled some salmon last night, but the real highlight was using it for salmon hash this morning.
+
+[15:59] Ooh. So did you pre-cook the what size potatoes do you use in your hash? Very, very small, uh annoyingly small. So but you like you do like a dice to like a I don't know what that is, less than a centimeter square, probably. So, John, what would that size be called?
+
+[16:17] It wouldn't be called a dice, it would be called a Brunoise. There you go. And this is why we have a francophone, like you know, Chef Cook working with us. It's not diced, Matt. It is a Brunoise.
+
+[16:31] I don't know if I can bring myself to regularly say that. I'm gonna have to start dicing them, I guess. Brunoise is a good thing. Matt, how come the potatoes are so much bigger than they used to be? Oh, because I refuse to make a brunoise.
+
+[16:48] Is that pretty much what it how it's going? Yeah, absolutely. Because my French teacher, you know, in middle school never really got me there. So I have to dice these now. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:58] Now listen, do you take them like all the way crisp and then throw in the salmon? Or do you have like a non-crispy hash? It wasn't it wasn't crazy, crazy, crazy crispy. But yeah, I took it pretty much all the way I was gonna take it, and then I I didn't want to overdo it on the salmon because the salmon was really nicely cooked already. Yeah.
+
+[17:17] You ever cheat? Here's a good so like I like, by the way, uh for those of you that have never had hash before. What? Hash is delicious. Like hash is great, and everybody has a different style of hash, and I like them all, right?
+
+[17:36] So like I like canned Hormel corned beef hash. Love it. Like, in fact, that was my standard. What do you guys order when you go to diners? Hash bound.
+
+[17:46] Sometimes sometimes I'll get corned beef hash. Corn beef hash? I'm corned beef hash, two eggs, sunny side up, runny, rye toast, butter. Bang. Like that's like, if they don't have the rye, I'll do white.
+
+[17:59] But like that that's my standard, and I know that they don't make the hash. I know it comes out of a can, and I love it. I love it. Uh anyways, canned hash, the potatoes are soft because suckers in a can, obviously. But have you ever tried taking the potato pieces, doing them like um fried, like crunchy on the outside, like fried out, and then or if you want to do a simpler thing, just pre-roasting the potatoes, doing a little bit larger of a size potato, roasting them off so they're crispy on the outside, then tossing in the meat base?
+
+[18:32] Yes. That's the way you like it, right, Stas? That was yeah, yeah. Now I'll sometimes do some stuff to my hash that Nastasia would stab my eyes out for. I've been known sometimes to put rosemary into it.
+
+[18:46] And I know that Nastasia has some PTSD on rosemary and can't ever use it again in cooking, which is. Throw the salmon in at the end. Uh no, I put the salmon on basically as I was turning the heat off and just like let it come up to tap essentially. Alright. For a couple.
+
+[19:26] Yeah. Now, uh, did you uh do you eat your now you were eating your hash as a as a breakfast course or as a main course? I'm hash any time of day, by the way, so I'm not no judgment here. I'm just asking. Hash any time of day sounds very smart, but this was this was hash with a fried egg and a piece of toast and some like side salad.
+
+[19:46] Alright, what's what's what's your spring mix? What's your ideal fried egg? Uh well I I don't I don't know how to answer that question. No wrong answers here. How do you like your fried eggs?
+
+[20:00] Isn't there just one way? No, so many ways. Oh, I like I like hard yokes. You like yours hard cooked? Hard yoke.
+
+[20:09] I need the I need the yolk like oozing and saucing out my uh agreed. Saucing out my hash. That's what I need. But there's no wrong answer. There's just what you want.
+
+[20:19] Oh, I like full runny. Yeah, I just want the white to be set and then the rest running. Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I like a poached egg on my uh on my hash too. Although I I don't when I'm when I'm out I never ask for that because the odds that someone can do a poached egg properly, somewhere between zero and zero.
+
+[20:39] You know what I mean? Like at a diner? I mean, come on. Hey Dave. Yep.
+
+[20:43] It's our anniversary. How many years is it? It's end of August. Oh, geez, Louise. You can't pull this test on me a million infinity years?
+
+[20:53] Let me guess, hold a second. Twelve? I think it's 13. Ooh, lucky 13. Yeah.
+
+[21:01] By the way, this is supposed to be the year that Nastasia and I actually have our business become a valid business. That's not inspired by the finely crafted tools built at the hands of friends in and around custom knife making and with a love of all things food, Abe Shaw began forging a collection of culinary tools unlike any other. Collecting and working with custom and handmade knives for over a decade, Abe has developed a deep respect and admiration for the artists, metalsmiths, woodworkers, and craftspeople behind the endless interpretations of these ancient tools that feed us, the most intimate tools in our lives. They needed a showcase, and eating tools was born. The curated collection of unique and extraordinary handmade culinary utensils you'll find here, along with a handpicked selection of top quality production-made pieces represents a catalogue of products never before assembled in one place.
+
+[21:56] Many of these products can only be found at eating tools. Food, cooking, craftsmanship, and art are their ingredients. For more information, visit eatingtools.com. Wait, oh Dave, can we talk about Disney princesses? I mean, we could talk about it if you'd like.
+
+[22:44] But go on. Well, having no no, look. Okay, so I can say why you said Ariel was the answer. Yes, yes. Okay.
+
+[22:52] So Nastasia said that uh that uh Ariel was every man's Disney princess dream, and I was like, why? No private parts? And she's like, no, no, uh, no voice. And I was like, and I was like, I don't know. I mean, and it's like, you know, he did actually fall in love with Ursula the Sea Witch because of the uh and she's like, yeah, but she never said anything, she just was humming things.
+
+[23:20] So I was like, nah, maybe fair, maybe fair point, right, Stoss. Yeah, yeah. And so then she said, Who is your, you know, who if you weren't married and someone said you could try to go out with any of these Disney princesses, who would you pick? And so then that I think everyone, everyone who is, you know, would go out with a uh a woman should try to figure out who their Disney princess of choice uh would be. But like I didn't even I the problem is is that Nastasia was like you have to choose also based on their personality and all this other stuff, and I'm like, I haven't seen some of the more recent movies, you know what I mean?
+
+[24:00] Okay, Matt, so Matt, choose. And and we're talking classic. Uh well, well, classics up till what? Up till 90, up till 2000. Like Matt, you've seen most of them, right?
+
+[24:14] Um I pulled up a list to be like who are I mean, I would go Jazz. Huh? No, well, why? Uh I don't know. Because I I fondly remember Aladdin, basically.
+
+[24:32] He's choosing for himself, Stas. He's choosing for himself. Oh, sorry. I like how he's he's choosing, I would choose Jasmine. You're like, nah.
+
+[24:40] I okay. Sorry. Sorry. I meant for Dave. Who do you see, Dave?
+
+[24:46] Oh, oh. Um. Um. I don't even know. Who is this?
+
+[24:52] Who is the job? The thing about Jasmine, the thing about Jasmine is she does have that tiger. Uh Snow White? I don't know. Come on.
+
+[25:05] You know I hate that. It's very easy. It's very easy. I got it on my first try, Matt. Come on.
+
+[25:10] No offense if you guys like that look. No offense if you're a snow white person. I mean, uh, Bill has an army of singing tools. Is that it? Is that what seals the deal?
+
+[25:19] Bingo. Yeah, all right. And Matt, she's put up with a with a beast. Oh, yeah, that's actually man. Her dad is a crazy inventor.
+
+[25:29] Yeah, her dad's a dad's a crazy inventor. He's friends with a bunch of kitchen tools. Yeah. And can hang out with people that are otherwise unloved. It's incredibly obvious, and I feel bad.
+
+[25:40] I don't feel like I brought my A game here. That's okay. That's okay now. My question was: if you could be any Disney villain, who would you be? I know who I would be.
+
+[25:53] Say it, Dave. Captain Hook, straight up. Now, the the thing is, is that looking back, wow, what a horrible racist movie that was. But when I was a kid, holy crap, I loved Peter Penn. I love Captain Hook.
+
+[26:08] Like, and when we decided that's Wendy. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, John. You have to be Smee. If I'm Captain Hook, you have to be Smee.
+
+[26:16] Apologize about that. Great. Smee! I love Smee. Smee's awesome.
+
+[26:24] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But Captain Hook, if I uh at one period in my life, I tried, I was younger, obviously. I mean, that's always true if you did it in the past.
+
+[26:34] Uh, I I really wanted Captain Hook's coat to the point where I was gonna try to convince my now dead grandma, who was pretty good at sewing, to uh to make me a legitimate, not some sort of BS costume version, but a legitimate Captain Hook coat. I mean, it's just such a serious coat the guy has, you know what I mean? Remember when you had the BS uh top hat in uh in LA for the Houdini Burk? Alright, so Nastasia Lopez hired or bought because we're not rich for this kind of stuff. We don't have excess money to spend on costumes, right?
+
+[27:09] So Nastasia buys like the the outfits that you would buy if you were going to a party strictly to hook up with someone and then instantly throw the costume in the uh dumpster as you were making out in the alley. That's the level of costume that Nastasia buys for our events. True or false. True, true. So she buys me a hat made, I'm pretty sure, out of used women's pantyhose.
+
+[27:42] A quote unquote top hat made out of like some sort of nylon discarded hosiery. And for whatever reason, because I was supposed to be the the circus leader of this uh of the party that we did at uh in Los Angeles last year. And uh for whatever reason, I don't know if you guys know this, if you've ever seen a picture of me, but I'm like super pale, like super pale. So like like I, you know, I burned very easily, and uh when I was uh when I was you know in grad school, I did an art project where uh burning kerosene sprayed all over my back and I I caught on fire. I've talked about this on air, but I had like second and third degree burns all over my back.
+
+[28:28] And so as a result, you can't see it, right? You know, if I were to ever take my shirt off, which no one has ever seen and no one ever will, but if I ever were to take my shirt off, my back looks normal, but I can't put it in the sun anymore. And so I just kind of turned into a person that where the sun never touches my skin except for the backs of my hands. So I wear big hats, I wear uh you know, long sleeve shirts, long pants, and uh because I don't like uh I don't like sunscreen. I don't like the I don't like oils and lotions and whatnot on on my skin.
+
+[28:59] And this is the reason why I have to take huge amounts of uh vitamin D. So anyway, I show up in LA, and of course Nastasia has rented a convertible because as one does, right, Nastasia? Yes. Yeah. And I don't have anyone, for some reason, I effed up and I left the apartment early, and I didn't bring any one of my multiple wide brim hats that I have, and we didn't have the time, and I wasn't gonna go spend money on a real wide-brimmed hat because they're expensive real ones, right?
+
+[29:29] So Nastasia's like, don't worry, I got you this. And so she hands me this piece of women's hosiery that I have to wear in a convertible in LA, driving around for like four days and at every light, people were like, mm-mm, douche. Or like, nice hat, dude. And then uh I had to wear it during the party. It was just a complete nightmare.
+
+[29:57] I had to wear it while we were moving, it was my moving hat. Oh my god. So like Nastasi and I didn't have the money to hire someone, so like we had a bunch of trash because it's a party, right? So like the person was like, and it was a huge hill that we had to roll the dumpster up. And the and the the tr the trash company was like, we're gonna leave the dumpster at the bottom of the hill.
+
+[30:19] If you want us to get the dumpster at the top of the hill, it's an extra two hundred dollars. Nastasia's like, that's like a case of cheap prosecco. And so she's like, we're gonna do it. So then I'm sitting here. Yeah, sitting here, oh my god.
+
+[30:38] Everyone was so hung over. Jeremiah Stone, the chef Jeremiah Stone. Nastasi was afraid he was almost dead in the pool the night before because he was doing the de the dead person float on purpose. He looked like something out of Sunset Boulevard, floating around. Everyone completely wrecked.
+
+[30:52] Nastasia and I, as our alarm goes off at six in the morning, we're like, get up, run in. I stick on my women's hosiery top hat, and we're pushing this dumpster up the hill nightmare. Loved it, right, Stas? Yeah, yeah. That's life.
+
+[31:06] Anyway, that this was supposed to be the year that we didn't have to do that stuff anymore. People have accused us of enjoying doing stupid things like this. We do not. We do not. Anyway.
+
+[31:20] Uh I don't know how the hell we got on that. I don't know. Oh, here's some uh facts for those of you out there that have access to this stuff. Uh went to the New York Botanical Garden uh again this weekend for the like third or fourth time since they've reopened. And uh so listen, I'm I'm gonna tell you this a little bit in secret because I'm not supposed to have done this, right?
+
+[31:41] I feel a little bit bad about it, but like an interesting place to go if you're interested in herbs and plants. One is the New York Botanical Garden, another one, specifically herbs now, is the cloisters. Either of you guys like the cloisters. Yeah. Or Matt, you like the cloisters?
+
+[32:02] I love I love the cloisters. I love the narwhal rooms. Yes. Yeah, so when anytime anyone says narwhal, now you have the B52s going through my head. Now all I can hear is that guy saying narwhal in my head.
+
+[32:13] Oh God. Hold on, give me a second to get it out. All right. Now, what I love about the cloisters is the aside from the the like weird medieval art and the fact that you know we stole all that crap from Europe for no apparent reason and aren't gonna give it back. Is that um they have amazing like herbs and flowers, and so if you're very discreet, you can like rub the the leaves a little bit and smell your fingers, and I do this and I'm not supposed to, right?
+
+[32:44] I'm not supposed to do this. I is that not okay? I think that's fine. I think as long as you're not like ripping the leaves off or anything like that. I think that's probably okay.
+
+[32:56] Every once in a while I will take a small thing. Yeah, I knew this was coming. I knew this was happening. I knew that was coming. Yeah.
+
+[33:03] Yeah. See, Dave, when I took that rock from the Acropolis, you like lost your mind. Well, yeah, that's not good. You cursed yourself and your family forever, I think. Right.
+
+[33:15] Yeah, yeah. You turned it from the Acropolis to the Acropolis. Good job. The uh Well, no, I mean, the thing is is it it's growing. I'm taking a little piece of a leaf that it's gonna grow up.
+
+[33:25] It's not even like a flower where it's gonna not like do it again for a year. It's like whatever. It's bad, you shouldn't do it, etc. If everybody did it, there would be no plenty of things. Exactly the tragedy of the commons.
+
+[33:35] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Uh so if you go to the New York Botanical Garden, which is in the Bronx, um, they have a section called, and I don't know the genesis of it, but whatever, whether they're gonna the ladies' border. You guys familiar with this section of the New York Botanical Gardens near the E Enit Haup Conservatorium?
+
+[33:54] Nope. Ah. The ladies' border is an area that is you like that place, right, Stas? Yeah. So it's it's laid out with a bunch of plants uh in a very dense fashion.
+
+[34:08] What? We're we're definitely working with a pretty solid delay here. Yeah. Um anyway, so there's a species of I mean, I was aware of the of the species, but I now I'm gonna have to wait for the delay because I gotta Nastasia, what are your thoughts on geraniums? I can you am I not delayed anymore?
+
+[34:30] I don't know. What are your thoughts on geraniums? Uh they're okay. I don't like them because they don't there's a lot of green and not a lot of flower. Usually.
+
+[34:39] Right, right. That's fair. And Nastasia, for those of you that don't know, is a flower person. But I'm not flowers. I'm not gonna tell you which flower she thinks are garbage and which one she doesn't, because in case you get her flowers, I would like her to judge you.
+
+[34:53] Thanks, Dave. I'm just kidding. Come on. Come on. Um the I did not know this because I'm not a flower person, but what we call geraniums a lot of the time aren't actually geraniums, right?
+
+[35:10] So like the things that are perennial that grow a lot in this area are actual geraniums, but the things that are planted in the ladies' border are pellargoniums, which for some reason we call geraniums. I who the who the heck knows why? Um, and here is the thing that I did not know is that all of these ones that are raised for flowers, which as you say, Nastasia, don't make enough flowers for your taste, right? Did you know that that there's a a huge subsection of them with scented leaves? Yes, I do.
+
+[35:41] I did. I know. How come you never brought this to my attention? Because I thought you only care about trees. No, I care about things you can eat.
+
+[35:50] You can eat them. Ah, I didn't know that. Yeah. So, like, I mean, crazy scents, like lemon rose, like rose, like lime. They had one there called filbert scented uranium uh geraniums.
+
+[36:06] I didn't really get the filbert. I mean, not that I could like a filbert is like John, do you know or anyone? Is there any real is a filbert just a uh like a jerky way to say uh to say hazelnut? Or are they actually different? I've never even heard what filbit?
+
+[36:22] Filbert's filbert. Yeah, it's not sure. Do you say Sherbert? Sherbet? What do you say?
+
+[36:29] I mean it's Sherbet. Okay. That's how it's spelled. There's no L back there. I know that's how it's spelled, but I have always my whole life since I used to order it in from the 70s on, have said Sher Bert, like Burton Ernie.
+
+[36:42] Okay, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I guess when I was a kid I said it that way. Yeah. I mean, there's gotta be some reason that all of us grew up saying Sherbert, even if it is Sherbet.
+
+[36:54] I don't know. Anyway, point being that uh I want could anyone sell these? I've never seen these for sale as as an herb. Some of them had, and this is where I said I I ate a little bit of the leaf. Like not even a quarter of a leaf, Nastasi, just a little bit.
+
+[37:07] And a lot of them have a little bit of a uh the aromas are amazing. Amazing. Uh some of them have a little bit of a bitter aftertaste. I would love to try them in a nitromutdle cocktail to see whether or not that aroma comes through or to see whether it's possible to use them in cooking to good uh advantage. Yeah.
+
+[37:24] Can you hear me okay? Sometimes, and sometimes you this is what you sounded like. Can you hear me okay? Can you hear me now? Yeah.
+
+[37:35] There's an herb place in Connecticut that has a bunch of these geraniums. Really? Yes. Okay then. It's a date.
+
+[37:46] We will have to physically get close to each other. We'll go to this place and we'll get some some herbs. And we can go to Stanford too and hang out there for a little bit. Well, where is what town is this herb without blowing up your spot, what town is it in. And we'll never know.
+
+[38:05] We'll never know. We'll never ever know. Um, let's get to some uh I I'm anxious to hear in the chat room or if any of you tweet me at cooking issues, any good uses for scented geraniums in uh food or cocktail. I'd be interested. Because it's not it's not every day that a 49-year-old person in the food business who cares about this stuff, someone just hands them like a whole palette of stuff that they've never messed with before.
+
+[38:32] Yeah, that grows like like at their doorstep. You know what I mean? You probably can find them around too, because uh my mother-in-law, when I was down in DC for a few weeks in July, she had a few of them that she had planted in her garden, the aromatic ones. And was she using them? She was not using them for a culinary purpose.
+
+[38:50] No. Was she making a potpourri? She was just enjoying them as plants. By the way, does anyone still use potpourri? What was the no?
+
+[39:03] What is the use for potpourri, really? So in the 70s. I'm here. Oh, good, good. In in the did your mom still like the potpourri, Nastasia?
+
+[39:13] No. No. Oh. Hmm. Unclear.
+
+[39:18] I'm gonna say that you said no. Okay. So uh yeah. I'm gonna say she said no. What do you guys think?
+
+[39:26] It was no. It was definitely no. Keep going. So in the 70s, what you used to do was is you would get a bunch of theoretically aromatic and yet dried old stuff, like old rose petals, like cinnamon sticks, cloves, like all kind of leaves, right? And then it would be kind of brown, and then you would stick them all in a bowl.
+
+[39:50] But then because you realized that all of their natural scent had already been gone, because they had been picked sometime like a century earlier and been stored in a warehouse, you douse them in like actual like aroma that you bought in a bottle, and that my friends. Yeah, that my friends is potpourri. And it was huge in the 70s. People like had bowls of it out, and you would just go in and be like, oh, the potpourri. I feel like did wait, Nastaz, now you did do you did do the clove studded orange at Christmas time, right?
+
+[40:20] Yes, and we had a ton of potpourri during the early 90s. Oh, so you did have it. Yeah, but you asked if my mom still has it, and no. Okay, okay, okay, okay. But back in the day, you did you did the potpourri.
+
+[40:34] John and Matt, did you guys do the did you guys do the the clove studded citrus for the Christmas time? No, but my mom did have potpourri around the house until like the late 90s. Oh, you see? You guys making me feel like a jerk. But listen, I have to say, like, here's some things.
+
+[40:50] I know it's not, we're nowhere near Christmas time. I'm already kind of depressed about what it's going to be like this year. But, like, let me just say now, I am a fan, and I haven't done it in about 35, 36, 38 years. But the clove studded citrus, I think is cool. I still think it's cool.
+
+[41:09] Smells good. Anyway. Actually, potpourri, now that I'm translating it, that translates to rotten pot. Pourri means rotten? Yeah, puri.
+
+[41:19] Popori. Bo is pot, pooli is rotten. So the Frenchies were making fun of us even back then? I guess so. God.
+
+[41:28] You know? God. Uh all right. Let's take a look at the. Sure.
+
+[41:34] Take a question from the chat, sure. Uh Hunt Hunt, H U N D T said, Hi everyone. Beverage related question for the show. How do I clean a filthy old cold plate? The random person I got it from does not remember how many years ago he last used it, but does remember that the beer still inside is Bud Light.
+
+[41:55] Can I just run beer line cleaner and stamp sanitizer through it following normal instructions for cleaning lines? Or heat it in an oven as well, something else, or just trash it. This might be a good place to mention that John has visited the Budweiser factory and taken the factory tour. Yes, but I didn't w watch them clean anything. That's not part of the tour.
+
+[42:18] Yeah, but you but I'm saying is you saw where the Bud Light was born, right? Yes. Yes, yes, true. It is a really impressive factory. Those places, those places are insane.
+
+[42:28] I went to the Miller Gloers in LA, and they had vats, you know, uh watering vats that were like bigger than the annual production of the brewery I worked at. It's crazy. Yeah, it was what yeah, it's like a college campus all dedicated to beer was insane. Yeah. Uh here's what I would do.
+
+[42:46] Uh before you do any sanitizing and whatnot, which by the way, the sanitize, it depends on what you're gonna put back through it or not. I mean, the sanitizing is to prevent for for a lot a lot a lot of reasons, obviously, but I mean that to me the biggest thing is not whether or not it's sanitary in the in the short run, is how bad does it taste and is it throwing off flock? And throwing sanitizer in isn't going to take care of the fact that it's full of disgusting tasting filth. So uh what I would do is I would just get some flexible rubber hose and hook it up to a hot water tap and just flush it, flush it, just keep flushing it, just flush it, flush it, keep flushing it till it runs clean, let it sit with hot water in it for like two, three hours, flush it again, put detergent in, flush it, put detergent in, let it sit, flush it. Then if you want to sanitize it, go ahead.
+
+[43:48] But until that thing flushes clean, and until you can taste the water that comes out of it and not be like, hmm, gross, right? And by the way, not just water that is flowing through it at a high rate of speed. I'm talking about if you let it, if you flush water through it, you wait like two hours, you come back and you just turn on the tap a little bit so that a little bit trickles out, and you just get that stuff that was in the line, and you can knock that back and go, ah, clean. Then, then you're set. But I don't know.
+
+[44:21] Also, throw away uh you have to obviously throw away any of the plastic parts that have been touched it because the odds that you get those things completely clean are low. So, like stuff might be sitting in the um in the washers and the flare washers, because those are typically plastic, so you might want to pitch those and get new flare washers. Um, that's if there's gas. Oh, yeah. Well, the classic thing isn't necessarily beer.
+
+[44:46] The classic thing is root beer ruins any gasket, can't be fixed. So, like people who like store root beer in kegs always have uh like a root beer gasket set because it's well known that root beer just doesn't come out of come out of the gasket. Speaking of root beer, have you guys ever made root beer with actual sarsaparilla? No. No.
+
+[45:07] Yeah, me neither. Because it's been illegal since before I was born, but uh, because saffron is theoretically potentially uh carcinogenic. But um, you know, I saw, I was telling John also when I was at the botanical garden, I was telling him earlier uh today, I saw the biggest sassafrash tree I've ever seen in my life. Sassafrash tree where I you know come from is like a little tree. What?
+
+[45:31] Say it again. Did you take some? I think it's what she said. No, it was too big. This tree, Nastasia, you wouldn't believe it.
+
+[45:36] I was like, what's this giant tree? I sent John a picture, he couldn't believe it either. Huge sassafrash tree. Because like where I am, you know, am they always like little saplings when you throw them away. But for those of you that, and I know that anyone in the south already knows this, but for those of you up north who have sassafras growing as a weed tree, the um the roots, right, which is what you would you know get the saffron from to make root beer, isn't the only thing you can use that thing for.
+
+[46:01] The leaves, which are very easy to identify, the mitten-shaped leaves. Sassafras, also an interesting tree in that it has various leaf forms on the same plant. So, like some will look like a mitten, some won't. They won't have lobes. You know, mulberry is another plant that has that kind of interesting facet, although the leaves obviously look completely different.
+
+[46:19] But sassafras leaves, if you pick them and dry them and grind them, that's philae powder for making gumbo. So if you want to make uh a gumbo out of philae, uh you you actually have access to that up north, even if you don't want to buy philae powder. What are you saying, Stas? Lost her for a second. Uh all right, so I'll read this question from Carlos.
+
+[46:39] Uh Carlos Rodriguez writes in uh fan of the show, currently work on an organic veggie farm in Kelowna, BC, Columbia, uh, Canada. I'm looking to extract uh vegetables into oils and alcohol. Specifically, I'd like to start with fresh herbs and seeds. For seeds, uh cilantro, fennel, dill, and anise, and for herbs, lemon, verbena, lemon verbena can be tough. Uh gets detergent-y real quick and and goes brown real quick.
+
+[47:05] Anis hysop, sage, and thyme. As far as veggies go, peples, peppers. We grow 65 varieties of peppers right now, and we'll likely do more. Caratops, anything to do with tomatoes. I've done vinegar trials with the leaves, and it's okay, but not great.
+
+[47:19] I'd also like to look at flowers, lilac, and lavender. Anything I can get would be greatly appreciated. So, um, I mean, some flowers are very, very fragile. That's why they invented the technique kind of of enflourage, because they don't really withstand tincturing very well, and they don't withstand uh even steam distillation very well. So uh flowers that need to have their extraction done with enfourage, let's set those aside.
+
+[47:45] So enflourage is where you will get like a neutral fat. You'll press the flowers into the fat, then you will wash the smell off of the fat with pure alcohol. Uh that's a time honored, and that's actually the idea of enflourage is where the bartenders who started doing fat washing, I guess originally got their idea, which I don't know this for sure, but you guys remember the movie The Perfumer and the book? Nope. I think it was called The Perfumer.
+
+[48:11] It was a famous book about this guy who like had this amazing nose, and I think he ends up killing people and turning whatever smells. Anyway, they did a movie on it, and Enflourage is big in it, and it was pretty soon after that that enflourage became kind of a big thing in in the bar world. Well, fat washing, which was based on enfourage. Anyway, um as for the other things, uh oils are difficult to do with normal with normal bar stuff. If you have money and you're working on a farm with money, invest in a pilot scale um uh supercritical CO2 extraction unit.
+
+[48:48] I think you can get them for under 10 grand now. Just be careful that you get one that is uh fully rated for safety because you're dealing with a lot of high pressures. But I've never met someone who invested who is a professional. I mean, obviously not at home, but I've never met somebody who's invested in a super critical CO2 extraction setup and was like, the product sucks. Just never happens.
+
+[49:09] Everyone loves it. So that's what I would do. Uh was that a good answer? Uh guys, or no? Yeah, I think so.
+
+[49:14] And if he doesn't like the answer, you can always email me again and we can get more split. By the way, wag of the finger, somebody complained on Booker and Dax's Instagram account that uh John that we were bad at responding to call a call in on our uh customer service. And uh I don't know if you know this, but if you can hear my voice, we don't have a call in line for customer service. So of course we didn't respond on it. Just email.
+
+[49:44] What's wrong with that? I well what number were they calling that they said they were calling in and had a problem. Like, of course I don't know, yeah. I mean, if you you know, if you if you call, you know, if you call the local uh, you know, waffle house and ask them for customer service for Booker and DAX, they're not gonna return your call. We don't have a number you can call.
+
+[50:05] Very true. John Bends over backwards to give you good customer service. Uh oh, get this. So uh, oh by the way, we're back in stock now on uh with uh Searsols, correct? And the screens as of this morning, yep.
+
+[50:20] Now listen, again, sorry to be, you know, pushing the product, but um so for years, uh Booker and Dax has only recommended the TS8000 model Burns Matic torch. Uh and I just realized that although Home Depot still sells them for the same $50 something dollars and Lowe's for the same $50 something dollars that they always have. Uh, and by the way, if you do buy them from them with the kit, please do not use the math gas. Um it will burn out your screens, it will fall over and burn down your house. Please don't do it.
+
+[50:55] Um Amazon no longer sells the Burns and Matic for the cheap price. They have jacked the price of the Burns Matic up to 70 something dollars, and they now sell a knockoff Burns on Matic TS8000, which John, do you remember the name of it? I got it. The Blue Flame 9XTE. The Blue Flame 9 XTL multipurpose map and propane torch, and that's for $53.99.
+
+[51:20] Now uh it looks identical to a TS8000, uh, except for they changed the cap on the trigger from yellow to blue. So and they included some extra nozzles. But uh John has ordered one for himself, and he's gonna test it over the next week or so. And so by next week, we will tell you whether or not we officially say that you can use maybe two weeks. We need to make sure we're okay with it.
+
+[51:45] We can see whether we can officially recommend the blue flame 9 XTL as it as a torch for the Searsol, right? Yep, yeah. Um I hate this. I just on Amazon to look it up, and they say frequently brought together the Blue Flame 9 XTL, the Sears All, and two canisters of freaking map gas. Don't do it.
+
+[52:08] We can't change that. Yeah. I know people we and we've had people yell at us being like, Well, you recommended that you get it. We didn't. We didn't.
+
+[52:17] Also, on um on the new Searsols that we're we're working on. So I've been working with uh Nastasia, John, and our factory in China on uh on new Searsol products, and as part of that, I'm trying to figure out a way to measure it. So I'm looking and I don't have time now, but if any of you are interested, write in. I can go in great depth on how you can take an inexpensive uh infrared camera, like the FLIR for the um for the uh iPhone or the Android, which only goes up to 400 degrees Celsius, or the the older ones only I think only go up to like 200 degrees Celsius. Steve, you should ask our fans if they know anybody that has the type of camera you're looking to borrow.
+
+[53:02] Oh, well, I mean, the kind of cameras I'm looking like, like uh I forget which which the model number. I needed one that goes up to like 1200 degrees Celsius, which you can't get. And then I FLIR wants you to buy really expensive FLIR cameras or rent really expensive FLIAR cameras. Because we're what I'm trying to do is we're trying to look at the front of a Searsol in full, you know, in full Sears allness and try to see what the temperature distribution across it is, right? And it's hard because it's real hot.
+
+[53:31] Uh and so, and in fact, our factory, when they were doing a prototype for something for the large one that we're working on, they quoted us some numbers. I was like, yo, those numbers have no meaning, you have no way of measuring it. Uh because they're standing away, like like they're standing six feet away from it with an infrared thermometer. Oh, I got a new infrared thermometer. I'll talk about next week if I like it.
+
+[53:49] There's an infrared thermometer I just got that goes up to very high temperatures, can be used on grills, and has instead of you okay. Are you guys all familiar with the the infrared thermometer with the one laser? Yes. Yeah. So infrared thermometers have like a focusing element in them.
+
+[54:06] And if you ever look at the side of an infrared thermometer, you'll see a cone with some circles in it, and that's showing the size of the spot that they're looking at at different distances, right? And everybody always pays zero attention to this because the therm infrared thermometers typically have one laser, and that one laser, right? You point the laser at something, you're like, Well, that's what I'm measuring the temperature of, right? Wrong. So this laser, aside from the fact that it can go up to much higher temperatures, so it's not as accurate at lower temperatures, which I don't need, right?
+
+[54:34] For this thing, has two, sorry, infrared thermometers, has two lasers at an angle so that as you move in and out, it goes from being two dots to being a spot and back to two dots, so you can really see exactly the size spot that you're measuring, which I think is pretty nice. It's a pretty nice feature. Um so anyway. Well, it is one. Wait, wait.
+
+[54:56] So the I know you're anxious to get back on the road. So the uh so the filters, first of all, FLIR does not want you to modify their cheap camera to be able to look at high temperatures. They want you to really, really want you to get the $12,000 camera. And in fact, the their like $5,000 camera and their $12,000 camera are the same exact camera with different firmware in it, so that if you go online on eBay, you can buy the $5,000 camera and have them illegally upgrade the firmware so that you're getting the $12,000 camera. But that's for a separate story.
+
+[55:30] So we invested in this super expensive neutral density filter. So think about it this way: if you have X amount of uh infrared um electromagnetic radiation, infrared long wave coming off of something, right? It's measuring, it's integrating the values that are hitting the sensor and giving you that back as a temperature. If you put an infrared neutral density filter in so that it cuts all of the transmission in that um in that wavelength area equally, right, by a certain amount, effectively you're cutting all of the temperatures by that amount. Now it's not strictly one-to-one.
+
+[56:03] There's all these formulas, but that's how it works. So you can increase the temperatures you look at by throwing a neutral density filter in. So we're looking at like hundreds of dollars for like germanium, which is an element that is is used for infrared windows and things like heat-seeking missiles. We're you know looking at these things neutral density filters. Guess what people for the purposes that we're doing quart container lids make excellent neutral density filters.
+
+[56:28] So if any of you are interested we can maybe put up somewhere how to cut apart a quart container lid and turn your uh you know couple hundred dollar fleer camera that plugs onto your Android or your iPhone turn it into something that can fairly accurately measure the temperature of your barbecue grill. Alright so Jay Cole talked about uh sent us a a shout out um goat and cocktails but also about a foot pedal so I'm gonna deal with Jay's question maybe next week because I want to research he he recommends what's called the Tapmaster 1775 uh kind of foot pedal scenario so if any of you have experience before next week uh about putting about using that tap master I've never used it send it in because I'm gonna be researching it because I was thinking about how upset I am at most foot pedal scenarios uh that people do and I want to do something on making the world's best for a normal human being's kitchen foot pedal for uh sinks um and they also they have a 30 pound goat I'm trying to think of a how big is a 30 pound goat it's about the size of a suckling it's a little bigger than a suckling pig right John I think so yeah some wrecks for preparation four to five month old gut in skin but otherwise intact I was thinking Cambridge for half and curry for the other. That sounds good. I've never cooked a whole goat uh I have cooked rack of goat, which is great. I love goats.
+
+[57:52] Goat is now more as expensive as lamb. I'll think about that. If it hopefully it'll last till next week. I'll come up with some good. I'll come up with some good goat stuff.
+
+[58:00] And for those of you that have recommendations for J. Cole and his whole goat, please send them in. And cocktails to go with goat. Anything that would go with lamb will go with goat. Uh anything else?
+
+[58:10] I was going to do a classics in the field. For those of you that uh I was gonna do the French professional professional pastry series and charcuterie series with uh Roland Billie, but uh we'll do that maybe next week. John has a copy of the charcuterie, so maybe I'll have him chime in on that for next week. Anything else you guys want to talk about before we're on our way out? No, all right, have a good drive.
+
+[58:30] Jeez Louise. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[58:44] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[59:06] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I'm Lisa Held, a food journalist and podcast host, presenting Behind the Label with American Humane. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This week on Meet and Three, we look at how delivery went from convenience to crucial.
+
+[0:25] In a pre-COVID universe, the commissions from these third-party delivery service providers were really high. And you were seeing oftentimes they were as high as 30%, right? I mean, all food is about basically the history of money and the history of technological change. But take out in particular. I'll go ring a doorbell and watch somebody come outside and wipe down their door in their doorbell after I leave.
+
+[0:52] But that's the state of uh where we are now. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive from the lower east side of Manhattan. We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who's currently in the STEM of Ford uh on the sound, Stanford on the sound.
+
+[1:26] Uh how you doing, Stas. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. Uh yeah, every you got power again, you have internet again. Yep.
+
+[1:37] Let me get this straight. The poll that got knocked over, they just put the poll directly on top of your old internet. That's what happened and just cut it right off. Yes. And then you went out there and spliced the whole splice the whole McGillah together.
+
+[1:52] Yeah, yeah. It sounds uh that checks out. Yeah. That checks out. Now get this straight.
+
+[1:57] Let me get this straight. Your dad is a telecoms professional right and yet because he was working in California on other people's telecoms he would not get on the horn to help you walk through your telecoms issues he doesn't have FaceTime on his phone because he uses his own company ATT for his so Nastasia Lopez your dad has worked for ATT for a million years. A million years and yet ATT throttles your cell account is that true yeah I need to switch I'm going to switch uh did you ever talk to him about and we can put this out to the uh to the listeners as well because I'm super curious about have you spoken to him about the uh telephone pioneers of America? Yeah he said my mom was part of it but she did not renew or something and he has no interest in being part of it and I said okay. But did they have any of the cookbooks they know about the cookbook he said yeah yeah I know there's some cookbooks we don't have any all right so for those of you that I'm curious whether anyone knows about this because there's so many of them I don't know what to get but way back in the day like when Alexander Graham Bell was still alive after the after you know the Bell Company had been around for I don't know like 20 30 years the at that time the old timers were like we want to start like a fraternal organization like the Masons or something but just for telephone people.
+
+[3:22] So they had the telephone pioneers of America and at the time you needed to have been working in telecom which at that time was just Bell right for like 20 something years to be uh a member, and so it was kind of like this fraternal organization for telephone company people. And you know, it's morphed, but it's still you have to work in telecom to be to be in it. But in the I guess 70s and 80s, maybe even starting earlier and maybe even going a little bit later, like all of these telephone pioneers of America had cookbooks for all their different chapters, like you know, Kansas City and whatnot, and they're all some of them are somewhat collectible, but I have no idea whether they're any good. So if any readers have any knowledge on the telephone pioneers uh or the pioneers of America cookbook series, let us know because I'm curious. I don't want to go on an internet buying spree.
+
+[4:14] Uh, but I'm a freaking sucker for a series of books. Are you guys familiar with the Rivers of America book series? No. So again, sometime like after I think the war, they hired a bunch of like famous off authors to just write books about particular rivers, and because they're all done by different kind of well-known authors, they all have a different kind of spirit and flavor to them. So I ordered a couple.
+
+[4:38] I think I ordered the Connecticut and one other. But there's so many that I wasn't gonna get into it. And also when I was reading it, I was like, nah, it's not what I'm it's not, you know. I don't have time to read stuff that's not at either a technical manual about food or a technical manual about food. Like, that's basically all I have time to read, you know.
+
+[4:57] Nastasia, on the other hand, your favorite thing to read is uh memoirs from rock stars, right? Yes, it they are my favorite. Wait, which is what's the best memoir from a rock star? Uh Anthony Ketis is really good. Oh, yeah.
+
+[5:11] Really, really good. Yeah. And you said that Anthony Keatis admits that he's not a good ballad singer. Right. Yes.
+
+[5:21] You know what? I like someone with some self-awareness. Yes. But yet, how many millions of dollars has he made singing ballads? So many.
+
+[5:29] Define define good. Because he seems to be doing alright. Well, what I'm saying is he doesn't respect himself as a ballad singer. Yeah. I mean, wouldn't you?
+
+[5:41] I mean, I totally would, you know. I mean, I don't know. It all started going south with that. I'm not gonna get into it again. Um, remember, like, I was they were one of my top three favorite bands, right?
+
+[5:57] Uh at one point in my life. Uh, but I have not purchased an album that came out after Blood Sugar Sex Magic. If it gives you an idea of what era I was listening to. Yeah. I was more of a uh, am I allowed to say socks on cocks?
+
+[6:14] Because that was their thing back in the day. No, all of our little children know they can't know that. They the Chili Peppers used to be famous for playing naked, except for they would have uh gym socks pulled over their junk, like a full junk hold, so it was like nothing else. Like I don't know whether they secretly used tape to make sure they didn't come off or whatnot, but they were that was their their thing. But they stopped doing that um right around Mother's Milk, um, which is when I started seeing them live in concert, was on the Mother's Milk Tour, and uh when I saw them, they were wearing pants.
+
+[6:49] Like both times I saw them live, they were wearing pants. And Nastasia, did they ever go back to that after that era? And I just missed it. They did, yeah, when they did Woodstock uh 98. I can't remember what year they did WoodSuck.
+
+[7:03] Yeah, well, I hope they were in shape. Um it takes a certain kind of being, I mean, like they were like completely like thin, high on drugs freak shows when they did it earlier. I wonder what they were like in the mid-90s. They're probably still pretty ripped, right? Still kind of the same.
+
+[7:24] All right. All of that still. All of that still? Yeah. So uh for those of you that have ever lived in or spent time in New York or Lower Manhattan, we have a uh we have a fairly large Jehovah's Witness kind of community around here, right?
+
+[7:42] Because you have the watchtower stuff like over in the over in Brooklyn, right over the bridge where from where I live. You guys know what I'm talking about? Nope. No? You guys live here?
+
+[7:51] You familiar with Jehovah's Witness? Yes. Okay. So they hand out these pamphlets, right? I'm not gonna get into religion because obviously we don't do we don't know, but like they hand out these pamphlets, and they have for many years, right?
+
+[8:04] And so, you know, one of one of the ones that, you know, kind of I I always would see is called uh like God's Peaceful New World, right? And you can Google this so you can see the pictures I'm talking about. Like God's peaceful new world, you can live there. And there's various over the years they've had different ones, but the one that I remember is like a picture, and there's like like a like a little white girl, a little black boy, like some adults, everyone's holding hands and drawing and hanging out in nature, and then sounds okay so far, right? There's a dog, right?
+
+[8:38] And then there's a lamb, and here's where it gets weird. There's like a polar bear, and there's like a cheetah, and like, and there's like a goat and a lion, and like, you know, one of the little boys is petting a lion, and and there's a bull and a toucan, and they're all hanging out in like what looks to be a New England kind of fall landscape, right? So it's like this is like the ultimate idea of of paradise that they have, and it's always struck me this kind of weird image of these animals that would never live together just on a geographic basis, much less the fact that they would rip each other to shreds. But here they are living, you know, all together, you know, everything. Like it fantastic picture to look at and just be like, hmm, okay.
+
+[9:20] And they would hand these out on the streets down here where I live. Anyway, you guys ever seen this picture? All right. So I saw the New York real life equivalent of this yesterday when I was uh walking home. It was amazing.
+
+[9:33] So there was a there was a knockdown uh building, right? And I looked into the rubble of where the knockdown building used to be, and all of a sudden I see it's full of animals. So usually when you see that it's like sparrows and pigeons, right? Because that's what it's like here. But this one was like, it was like God's peaceful moo world.
+
+[9:53] It was rats with the pigeons, with the sparrows, like a feral cat, all just kind of hanging out together, like no one was fighting. It was amazing. It was real New York, peaceful world, amazing. I have never seen that many rats in the daytime in the open. Like there must have been something so incredibly delicious there that the rats were like, to hell with it.
+
+[10:17] Or maybe the rats are smart enough to know that there's a fence and I can't like run over that we're not gonna get uh Nastasia's boy um oh my god, his name's our our friend, his name's went out of my head, rat kicker. Oh, Robert Bohr. Yeah. If Robert Bohr had been there, it would have been like a video game like like uh like duck hunt, like Robert Bohr's duck hunt for rats. If he was wearing his good rat kicking shoes.
+
+[10:43] He likes to kick rats with wingtips, right? Yes. Claire, mute yourself if you're not talking because we hear feedback. Claire. Claire's on Secret Claire?
+
+[10:55] Uh there's a secret Claire in the room. What's up, Secret Claire? Secret Claire giving herself away with her background noise. Yeah, if she had just muted herself immediately, I wouldn't have noticed. Friend of friend of the show, Claire, how are you doing?
+
+[11:12] Bad matters. Where are you? Oh my gosh, I'm good. How's it going with you guys? Oh, fantastic.
+
+[11:20] I closed my bar permanently last week, so there's that. It's awesome. Happy times, function. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah.
+
+[11:29] It sucks. So uh what's what's going on with you? Where are you? Uh well now I'm back in Mexico City. I did go back to Tulume to work on the honey bee business.
+
+[11:38] Oh, did you find anything good? Did you like the honey? I love the honey. It's I'm letting it, I'm I'm letting it percolate and putting some feelers out, some bee feelers out. Yeah, for those of you that don't know, Claire was on.
+
+[11:51] I realized she was uh in Tulum, and I told her that this is the world cap the only place really where you can get this Melipona honey, which is a slightly lower bricks honey made by a relatively endangered stingless honey bee from this area of Mexico. All right, so go ahead. So tell us yours, tell us your story. Well, so I actually have a question. Okay.
+
+[12:12] Well, I'm gonna it's a as always, it's a story with a question. So Stas, are you there? I'm here. So it was my birthday two weeks ago, as some of you may know. I had a goddess themed birthday party.
+
+[12:28] It was super magical. Oh my god. Goddess, did you did you uh did you are you f I think we're all invited? Are you familiar with the uh 1980s band Soho, whose uh best album was Goddess and whose hit single was Hippie Chick? No, maybe I should look into that.
+
+[12:48] You should listen. You your theme song should have been Got to Be a Goddess. Got to be a goddess, got to be a goddess. I don't know if that was the vibe, but I'll look into it. You weren't happy about being a goddess.
+
+[13:00] It's like, no, gotta be a goddess. So many people asking for favors. Oh so many people to turn into spiders. Is that what more of the vibe? No, it was more just like relaxed.
+
+[13:16] Uh yeah, you don't get to be, I guess. I mean, people think it's probably relaxing being a goddess. Never ask her question. No, it's a story, Stas. It's a story with a question.
+
+[13:25] Okay, so anyway, Stas and I, you know, have been friends for like over a decade. So where'd this start? Were you guys the Switzerland peoples? Yeah, we met in Switzerland teaching and then we cooked for a bunch of kids in camp. Oh, Pat Posey's here.
+
+[13:40] Oh my gosh, this is so fun. Hey Pat. You can stay on mute because I'm doing my story. Whoa. I like how Claire comes on our show and tells someone else to go on mute.
+
+[13:53] Strong. Well, it's goddess level control. Goddess level control. All right, go ahead. Zoom asked me.
+
+[13:59] They were like, do you want to put a password on this meeting? I was like, nah. If you guys want to come on and flash your chonies, remember there's no video here, so it doesn't work. Okay, anyway, so Stas and I have been friends for a really long time, and we usually used to be to get well in Switzerland. I always celebrated my birthday with Stas.
+
+[14:18] And now, you know, since I live in Mexico, we haven't been together for the last couple of years. And so, you know, I'm having my goddess themed birthday, and I'm like so happy, and like all my friends are here, and it's like this whole thing. And then my friend is like, Claire, there's something for you outside. And I knew that my friends were gonna get me a mariachi band. And so I was like, oh my god, it's the mariachi band.
+
+[14:40] But no, it was another friend holding a cake, and they're like, Nastasia sent this to you. And I was like, oh my god, because some of you may remember three birthdays ago, Stoss flew from New York to Barcelona and surprised me with my favorite milk bar birthday cake and a frozen turkey sandwich with a side of Russian dressing and a bag of salt and vinegar chips, which is my favorite New York City meal. What's a frozen turkey sandwich? Just a chili sandwich. I love the bodega sandwich.
+
+[15:12] I get turkey. Stoss is rolling her eyes right now. I get turkey, cheddar cheese, lettuce, mustard, mayonnaise, uh side of Russian dressing, salt and vinegar chips on a roll, and it's like literally my favorite meal in the world. Only rivaled byonnaise? Yeah, did I not say mayonnaise?
+
+[15:34] I don't remember, but I was making sure because there would have been some real problems. No, of course, duh now frozen just because you Nastasi was preserving it for shipment. If you don't typically eat it frozen, this is honestly, I I think I took a bike, but I felt a little bit weird because I was like, is it normal to eat frozen processed meat? No, didn't we? It's just traveled cross continents?
+
+[15:56] Oh, it's all good. Did Nastasia send a cake Mama Lopez style wrapped in wet newspaper? No, I delivered it. I hand delivered it to Spain. No, but no, the one literally brought it up.
+
+[16:07] The cake this time. The cake this time was from Mexico City. It was from a shop in Mexico City. It was from Nito in Mexico City, which we love. It's so good.
+
+[16:16] Anyway, so I made the rash decision to go. I was like, I need to go back to Tulum because of the bee business and some other business affairs I had to take care of. Wait, wait, wait. Like right then, you see the cake, you're like, F this party, I'm out. We drove to Tulum right away.
+
+[16:33] Like I'm trying to understand that time. Uh, the next morning. And so I'm like, I gotta go back to Tulum. And so I leave my cake, and I'm like so bummed because I was like, oh my god, it was so good. And my roommate was kind enough to save it for me.
+
+[16:49] And so I ended up only staying in Tulum for like seven days. And so I come back and there's my cake, and she had like sliced it in Tupperware, and so it's like sliced. There was like half of it left. Yeah, real good roommate ate half your cake. Nice.
+
+[17:04] I don't know where the other half went, but I'm not worried. So my question is, well, it's actually too late because I already did it, but I ate the rest of my cake this weekend. Is that gross? Well, I mean, it's it's it's gross in the fact that I can guarantee you, I can guarantee you from a distance of however many thousand miles we are from each other that it was stale, stale, stale. No, no, because Dave, it was it was better, it was so moist, and that that's what I love about the milk bar cakes, is they're so moist.
+
+[17:37] I thought you said this was from Mexico City. It was, but I'm just saying milk bar birthday cake is my favorite cake in the world. It's like my barometer of moistness. The higher fat a cake is, uh the better it will resist staling. Also, uh, depending on what flour makes they use, it will resist never gonna kill you.
+
+[17:58] You could dig up a cake from the pyramids and eat it, you know what I mean? As long as it doesn't have m mold on it. But what about it? Oh, it's cooked. You do not need to sweat it.
+
+[18:09] Like it is like from a from a safety standpoint, cake is a you know, zero, roughly zero percent, not roughly, it's like low water activity, ain't nothing bad gonna happen. Like certain cakes can develop molds if they're like very moist. Um, but you know, aside from that, it's like you know, if you keep um if you keep like bread in a like sliced bread in in Ziplocks, they'll like stay kind of soft because the liquid doesn't leave, but they'll but they'll mold. Uh whereas if you leave them out, like the liquid can get away and they and they won't mold and and they just turn into breadcrumbs. So if it was still moist because it was sealed in Tupperware, I mean it was probably still technically staling, right?
+
+[18:54] Because like the the staleness mimics drying out in some ways, but a lot of it's just about what's happening to um what's happening to the starch in terms of recrystallizing. So some of that is sucking water back in, but also it's just a structural change to the starch. And so typically, you know, cake when you leave it out, and this is why what the best thing to do is to freeze it. Oh, like a wedding cake. Yeah, but you freeze it at like uh if like what we do is we'll when we freeze things here, because I remember, you know, the the classic mistake someone makes when they're freezing something.
+
+[19:30] Like, let's say you make a pastel of banana bread, right? And which I do here uh on occasion, and then you want to freeze it, like you you want to slice it, but put a single sheet of freezer paper in between each slice, then put the whole thing into a zippy and like get rid of most of the air so you don't get a lot of like recrystallization on the outside. Don't like suck a huge thing on it because you don't want to like squish the bread too much, and then you freeze it like that, because um otherwise the moist edges of the things will freeze each other together, and this is especially true with cake. So, with some cakes are soft enough, right? So it depends on the cake.
+
+[20:05] Some cakes are soft enough to slice frozen. So as long as you cut it like in half, you can just slice pieces off with like a real hard push of a chef's knife down, and you'll get some smearing on the edge where you crush it when it's frozen, but it you know, it's good. And I actually like to eat, I eat frozen cake, I like frozen cookies. Uh, there's a story that uh Jen was when you know, Miley, my sister-in-law Miley, is the uh chief editor of the Food Network magazine, editor-in-chief, she launched it. And before that was with uh at Rachel Ray, before that was you know, time out and a bunch of other stuff, anyway.
+
+[20:39] So uh when she first moved to New York in the 90s, she stayed with us for you know a couple of weeks before she found her apartment. And my wife Jen was worried because you know, I don't know, I guess I was packing on some pounds or whatever, and Miley kept baking chocolate chip cookies. So, like kept just every day, chocolate chip cookies. Miley's special skill in life is that she can make muffins out of anything. So, like, if there's nothing in the house, she'll like go upside and outside and scoop some gravel out of the driveway and somehow make a delicious muffin out of it.
+
+[21:09] It's like her, she can MacGyver any muffin, anyway. Anyway, so my wife told Miley, yo, throw throw those chocolate, show those cookies in the freezer so Dave doesn't just pound them all when he gets home at like 3 a.m. from the from the uh studio because I was in grad school at the time for fine arts. And so Miley does that, and then in the morning, like they caught me. I came in, I'm eating them frozen out of the freezer, and I go, them's good frozen.
+
+[21:36] And so in my family now, them's good frozen is a phrase we use like a hundred percent of the time. Because I just pull them out of the freezer and eat them. Anyway, so you can eat cake frozen and do it that way. So if it stayed moist because it was in the Tupperware, God bless from from a textural standpoint, from an organ organoleptic and textual standpoint. If you're not gonna eat cake within a day or two, I would freeze it, but not from a uh safety standpoint.
+
+[22:01] Amazing. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your insight. When are you gonna get when are you gonna taste this freaking honey? Have you already tasted it?
+
+[22:08] You just haven't researched it enough, or have you not tasted it yet? I'm trying to find a vendor. I'm trying to find uh there's a honey store. I don't know if the No, we want to we want to go to the source and make our own. Dave and Claire's exquisite honey.
+
+[22:24] Listen, I mean, I'm happy to have Claire, but like you understand, like these people who make it, like, that is like one of their that's like that's that that's their life culture thing. Yeah. No, we're gonna partner with a family. Okay. I know you can short a publicly traded company, but how do I reverse invest in other people?
+
+[22:50] Well, that's an interesting question. Why would you say that? That's an interesting question. And I just learned it from an episode of Billions that I saw uh recently. You have to find the main competitor, right, of whoever it is you're trying to short that's not public, invest in them, and then tank the non-publicly uh uh traded place so that the one that you can invest in goes up.
+
+[23:15] Something tells me that none of these are public. No, these are like families who these are raised in like in like hollow logs, and like, you know, the community is raised in a hollow log, which by the way, all you guys familiar with Richard Scary's I'm a bunny and I live in a hollow tree. No. I don't even know what's the such a cute freaking kids book. I'm a bunny and I live in a hollow tree.
+
+[23:40] Look it up. Richard Scary. So Richard Scary, you think of Richard Scary as like, you know, the guy that like like books with like helicopters and planes and boats and like cats with captain hats on. You know what I'm talking about? But I am a bunny, extremely sweet book.
+
+[23:54] All right, thank you, Claire. Okay. Love you guys. Talk to you soon. Have an in-book.
+
+[23:59] I won't go that far. Tuesday. Oh, yeah, it's gonna be fantastic. And I hear we also have It is gonna be fantastic. That's up to you.
+
+[24:12] Oh, it is? I get to choose whether the day is fantastic or not. Oh Lord. Okay, bye. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms.
+
+[24:47] This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. We're looking inside the farm certification process, beginning with the moment a farmer expresses interest in becoming American Humane Certified, all the way to a consumer seeing the seal on store shelves. And American Humane is our country's first national humane organization, founded way back in 1877. Now we certify nearly one billion farm animals each and every year. Despite that growth, uh, roughly 90% of U.S.
+
+[25:23] farm animals are still raised without the benefit of independently verified science-based standards. Subscribe to Behind the Label with American Humane wherever you listen to podcasts. Fundamentally different technology though? Uh no, it's it's really the same technology. It's the the major difference is the read situation.
+
+[26:22] A saxophone has a uh uh a mouthpiece that has one piece of wood, one small shaved piece of wood attached to it, and that piece of wood you blow through that mouthpiece and that piece of wood and that vibrates, and uh that's called a single read, uh, which is also what a clarinet has. And then an oboe is called a double read. So instead of a mouthpiece, it actually just has two little thin pieces of wood that are strapped together, and you blow through that and that buzzes, and that's what creates the noise. Now, is it is it an oboist or an obist? Uh I would say oboist generally, but I would say obust for comedic purposes.
+
+[27:00] There you go. Now you also play the ocarina? I do play the ocarina. Yeah. What was your professional opinion of the smash mouth uh all-star uh melon ocarina situation?
+
+[27:10] Uh I have not heard it. What? I you know just do that. I'm sorry, that that was not included in my prep dossier for this phone call. Yeah.
+
+[27:19] Uh Nastasia could be. I do play clarinet, yeah. I started on clarinet. Let me ask you a question. I have known saxophonists who like jazz-style saxophonists who detest jazz clarinet.
+
+[27:32] How do you feel about is that a thing, or is it just a people I have known? And do you uh do you have any insight into um, you know, I would say that uh in the early days of jazz in the mid uh early mid-20th century, a lot of players who were playing played all kinds of wind instruments, and a lot of times in big bands and things, you're asked as a saxophonist to play uh clarinet and flute as well. Um and we have people like Benny Goodman, uh who was uh, you know, in the forefront of of jazz of his time and was uh predominantly a clarinet player. Um I don't I I actually I prefer playing clarinet in jazz idiom because uh you have a lot more latitude to squeak and play out of tune, which are you know, signature styles, signatures of my style of clarinet playing. Wow, wow.
+
+[28:14] Now and what are your theories when you have a saxophone on like you know, the people like they they freak out because that one little dent in the saxophone is what gives that particular instrument the sweet, sweet tone. If you found that to be the case for what you do? Uh, you know, I try not to get too wrapped up in equipment because it's uh it's a dangerous wormhole to go down. Um, you know, I have a mouthpiece that I've been playing on for 20 years at this point, and I don't feel like I want to change it until it breaks and you need it. And uh, you know, dents in the saxophone, it's saxophones are kind of in in some ways they're like they're like tanks.
+
+[28:54] You can you can beat the shit uh the stuff out of them. And uh uh and they'll still go. It's you know, but it's really it's the mechanical details of it because if you look at a saxophone up close, there's all kinds of little rods and uh you know holes that have to be covered by pads and things like that and springs, and so the mechanism has to be in good shape, and the body has to be uh has to be in in such a shape that all of those things can happen as they are supposed to, and as long as that's happening, it's gonna be fine. All right, now I hear that's that's not why Pat is here. I hear you've come on to talk about cooking alone, Nastasia.
+
+[29:29] Uh yeah, but first I'm I'm still a little riled from finding out that Claire got a cake because I've never gotten a cake. Well, you don't deserve one, Pat. Your birthday's in 12 days, right? You'll get a cake. It is now he's gonna get the cake.
+
+[29:41] Now, also, wait a second. Are you familiar with yes and Chris Squire, the bassist who played theoretically, I've been told, with a quarter? Uh, I know of yes. I don't know particularly about the bassist. Yeah, he was known for playing with a quarter.
+
+[29:57] When I was playing bass, I was you know, when you're a kid, you're like, I'm gonna do anything to sound like cool, and I tried to play with a quarter, you know what it sounds like? Garbage. You first of all, I don't like playing bass with a pick at all. But like playing with a quarter was even worse than playing with a pick. Maybe he didn't play with a quarter because he's probably playing with some sort of British money or something because the milling on the edge of the quarter makes like a real terrible catch, catch, catch, catch, catch, catch on the it wasn't like a good sharp attack.
+
+[30:23] I think it would have been better with a nickel because of the smooth edge. It's the milling on the quarter that makes it so crappy to play with, I think. Right. Well, is it also the heaviness? I mean, first of all, I've never heard of a bassist playing with a pick.
+
+[30:33] Uh that seems like blasphemy, but you know, that's not really my realm. Um, and secondly, I wonder about the the density, the mass of the metal, uh, and how that might affect it, because it seems to me that something lighter might be a little better. But uh, I agree with you on that. You want to go cashless here. You want to go a credit card, it's a much better pick.
+
+[30:50] People, you you can play with uh you've you've used a credit card as a pick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder whether I wonder whether bassists who play with picks are more likely to be that bassist who is actually a guitarist who just took the job as bassist because guitarist was picked Yeah. 100%. I hate that kind of bass playing.
+
+[31:09] People who don't come from bass, but like come from guitar land or like there's already two good guitarists. I guess I'll take bass. You know what I mean? So like I can do it. I know I I can hum a tune and I don't want to do chords anymore.
+
+[31:21] It's fine, I'll do this. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I don't know. Whatever, whatever. Alright, so talk to us.
+
+[31:28] And the reason why yes came up is because we were talking about uh owner of a lonely heart much better than owner of a broken heart, and Nastasia disagrees and wants to reverse the song and says that the owner of a broken heart much better than the owner of a lonely heart. What do you think? I'm sorry, was that addressed to me? Yes. Uh, you know, broken heart, lonely in the heart, it's all it's all the same thing.
+
+[31:51] I think when you get to uh such an advanced age, uh uh, you know, you've you've lived a life, you've experienced it all, and all of that comes through in everything you do. Now, Pat, talk about talk about how excited you were at the beginning of quarantine when you were making bread, and then how that sort of just went down as the months went. First of all, what's your pod? Before you start, I want uh when we're talking quarantine stuff. We need to know your pod, like like your level of aloneness, like all this stuff.
+
+[32:20] Just give us the deets and then go into the into the arc. Yeah, well, I mean, it's changed a lot. For the first uh month or so of quarantine, I had taken a lover, and uh and that doesn't that like I know that sounds very British, but here that means they've been kidnapped. Yeah. Uh you know, it might be described that way.
+
+[32:38] I'm not sure. I'm not sure how he's talking about it outside of this, but um, you know, we uh uh he came and he basically lived here for a month and uh it was great for a couple of weeks, and then it was like okay for a week, and then it was just terrible for two weeks. And uh during that time we were cooking a lot, uh, making extravagant meals. He got obsessed with the uh uh uh the art of French cooking and um was cooking these huge meals out of that, and then uh as I was losing weight, he was gaining weight from all of the butter. And uh, but the the situation was really good.
+
+[33:10] And during that time, of course, you didn't know what was happening, and so that's when the the food hoarding started. You know, you couldn't get things. I paid at some point 25 uh uh $60 for a 25 bag of flour online because it was the only flour I could get anywhere. I bought yeast from a guy on a bike in a parking lot down in Silver Lake. That's creepy.
+
+[33:29] Uh it was shady, but you know, you did what you had to do. Was it SAF red, the one pound bag? Uh it was not. No, it was like a little tiny, it was a tiny, I think it was uh uh just about a four-ounce thing of yeast. So, how much is a dime bag of yeast going for uh during full corona?
+
+[33:45] Uh it was like ten dollars. It was pretty reasonable. Oh no, that's not that's not reasonable. All right, go ahead. Uh maybe for California prices.
+
+[33:58] So uh, you know, on the on the other side, gas got really cheap around that time. So it all balanced out. Um yeah, so I started cooking. I got a I got a starter, I got a sourdough starter from a neighbor and uh and started cooking. And then uh when my lover left, suddenly I was left with all of this food and all of the food that I had was uh was in quantity and designed for these big lavish meals, you know, and suddenly I was alone.
+
+[34:25] And uh I had a few friends, but I had I had sort of not been hanging out with anybody, you know, you sort of hoarded down uh in that in that first initial phase. So you weren't potted with them, but would they would they hang with you or were you doing distance hangs? They would, but you know, in in that first in that first uh in the first month of me being alone, uh it was it was it was sort of rolling that out. And I and I had like I didn't know what the etiquette was. You know, at that point, everybody else had started uh hanging out with other people during that first month a little bit.
+
+[34:56] Uh, and I had not really done that because I had been holed up at home with uh with the lover. So um anyway, I had all this food. And then uh so that first month of me being alone was kind of hell because I was, you know, having to go through these lavish three hour meal preparations and then enjoy them myself for the next four days. Uh and uh and then things started to even out a bit. Then I started, you know, going through different cycles of how to uh prepare food for myself as a single person.
+
+[35:27] And uh and now I've arrived at a very good place. I'm I'm I'm in a good place with it now. You were at a really bad place with it though where like even looking at the things in your fridge made you angry. Yeah thank you for reminding me about that's why Nastasia I'm sure had you call in because she wants some of the anger and the visceral visceral hatred. I just had this text from him uh July nineteenth I just googled Mexican green beans because I have to eat these green beans but I also want to have tacos later.
+
+[35:56] Yeah I green bean taco would be I'm trying to think about a green bean taco. Well july July was rough I'm not gonna lie July was rough um you know we still had it was weird zoo June June gloom lasted well into July here in Los Angeles. So it was a June gloom June gloom is a thing that happens in coastal California in the Sun in Southern California in the summer uh where it's like dark and gloomy for most of June. Oh that's when I should go there. Oh my God I didn't know there was a season where I would like the weather in Los Angeles.
+
+[36:30] But um it's gloomy out? It's gloom it's actually gloomy out right now. Yeah it's lovely. Oh man oh sweet. Yeah I just started wearing pants again this week for the first time in a month.
+
+[36:42] You don't wear you you wear shorts? I wear shorts through all of August. I am not into uh into like uh I know that it's not cool, but I just don't wear shorts ever. Never. No one's ever seen my legs in public.
+
+[36:57] I went swimming this weekend for the first time in I don't know, years because I was I was forced to, and I had to I I wore a shirt in, don't worry. I wasn't like close to being naked out there, but uh I yeah, I had to wear like my bathing suit out there, and I was like, the legs don't like it. Well, so the green bean tacos were excellent. Um did you actually make green bean tacos? No, the tacos, no, I did not make green bean tacos.
+
+[37:29] I I had green beans and I needed to use them. And you know, the thing is is that I uh I got into a cycle in July where most of what I was making was was protein. I would say like before in early July and late June, the cycle that I was in was frozen stuff from Trader Joe's. Um and then I got a grill, and then it turned into grilling protein every night, uh, which was great, but it meant that then I just like I got in a few weeks in, I started to uh my body started to tell me that I needed to eat more bed vegetables. And well, there's whole there's whole theories of thought on uh, you know, whole cult diets based on eating only meat.
+
+[38:13] But you did you found it wasn't pleasant for your body? Uh no. You're not a member of that cult. It was it it was for a while and then uh and then it became not. Yeah.
+
+[38:23] So uh what is a Mexican green bean as opposed to the green beans that we get? Uh I'm not I'm not really sure. I just did that because I was wondering if uh, you know, I I had these green beans, I wanted to make tacos, so I wanted to prepare the green beans in a way that would like go along well with the tacos. I understand. It's not a variety of green bean that I should be aware of.
+
+[38:46] He wanted green beans done as though it was going to provide him with like Southern California Mexican flavors. That's what we're talking about. Yeah, I kind of just wanted to see what people do. And and usually as I've uh as Nastasia knows, when I lived in New York, I never cooked and started cooking when I got out to California. And um, so usually when I cook, I I'll go on, you know, I'll Google my idea and then look at 10 recipes and then just go into the kitchen and see what I can find and start throwing it all together.
+
+[39:12] So it was, you know, it was basically like cumin and Mexican oregano. I'm sure it tastes fine. Yeah, it's good. And you know, my poop was a lot better after that. So wow.
+
+[39:24] All right. Nice. Well I'm glad to hear it. Do you know uh people I know people that used to keep poop diaries? I've heard of that.
+
+[39:30] Yeah. Nastasia and I keep an informal poop diary going. Well, she did live in Italy for a while, and you can't live in Italy without being obsessed with poop. True or false, Nastasia. Yeah.
+
+[39:41] So let me ask you uh a question. Uh you're familiar with wax beans? I've heard of them. Heard of them. Oh my god.
+
+[39:49] Well, you know, yellow the the things that look like green beans, but they're yellow. Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh I think that they are the superior bean. Huh.
+
+[39:57] I love wax beans. Love them. Why is that? Um I think that when you cook them, they maintain their squeak a little bit better. And I live, I love like a fast sauteed, like like like butter, like butter bacon, little little bit of sugar salt, like fast sauteed, squeaky bean.
+
+[40:18] Love a squeaky bean. John, what are your thoughts on the on the wax versus the green? Um, I don't know if I've given it too much thought. I think I'm probably more green than wax. I don't know.
+
+[40:31] I don't know. I don't know if I like the squeak as much. Doesn't bother me, but yeah. Well, here's I mean, like, I think that like it's like it's like cheese curds. It's like if you if you're not thinking about the squeak, the squeak is just there, and it's like me or mur or me a mop.
+
+[40:48] So you're not thinking about it much, right? But if you're like, if if you go into the whole thing being like, I'm gonna get the squeak out of it, favorite the squeak. Then you like the squeak. I like the squeak. And I know Pat does because he told me he does when he's playing his clarinet, likes to squeak.
+
+[41:04] Who doesn't love a good squeak? Listen, so I uh I want to ask you about that because I have over the course of the last month when it got, you know, it's just been deathly hot here uh for the last month. It's cool off right now, but later in the week it's gonna get up into the 90s and the hundreds again. Um, and so I uh have been doing all of my cooking outside of my grill. Um what can I do with the beans on the grill?
+
+[41:26] I mean, what's the best way to prepare those on the grill? Well, I don't know if you know this, but beans don't burn on the grill. Oh, boom! Jefferson's reference and none of you got it. Uh anyway.
+
+[41:37] Uh how many times have you watched the Jeffersons in your life? Thank you for making me feel young. Yeah. Yeah. The Jeffersons will.
+
+[41:45] I mean, I haven't watched it, so I don't know how bad it is. I haven't watched it since I was a kid, but you know, the Jeffersons. You guys haven't. That's the kind of comment that makes me want to go okay boomer. I love that.
+
+[42:01] You know, you know what I've never heard? It's the the hilarious thing about okay boomer is that I've never heard it actually applied to an actual baby boomer. Which is what makes it the funniest. Like the funny thing about it is it's like a double, it's like a double comment. It's a comment on not caring what older generations are than you, and a comment on the person who's older.
+
+[42:23] You know what I'm saying? Like it's like, I don't even care enough to find out who you are, and at the same time, crap on you, old guy. You know what I mean? That's what's so awesome. It's like it like kind of cuts both ways.
+
+[42:35] You know what I mean? I I almost used okay boomer um on a comment that my dad made on one of my YouTube videos. Uh he's probably a boomer though. He is a boomer, yeah. That's that's why I was saying it, but I couldn't.
+
+[42:46] It was just it was a little too brutal for my own father. Ah, I see, I see. Yeah. Anyway, uh crap on all of you millennial turdweeds, because uh the Jefferson's theme song is one of the all-time great theme songs. And I would think as a musician, Pat, that you would appreciate good 70s and 80s theme songs.
+
+[43:06] I will tell you some more. Samford and Sun cannot be beat as a theme song. Samford and Sun Sun's theme song is like one of the all-time great theme songs. I wholeheartedly agree with you on that and uh and with the Jeffersons. There you go.
+
+[43:19] All right. Uh so uh beans on the grill. Uh the the you're gonna want a lot of the flavor from grilling is from flare up on fat, right? So what I would do is the and the other thing is that a lot of times when I'm cooking beans on a on in a stove, my typical veg is kind of like modified like French culinary style, you know, cooking. So like not all, I don't have to I don't make the little parchment parachute that you put over the top of it and all that other garbage.
+
+[43:46] But you know, my typical way to cook veg. Uh I mean, if you really want to be like the best, you like would par cook in like in salted boiling water, pull out and then flash saute to finish everything out, but like the the kind of just let's get it done real fast inside is you would put your your veg and a little bit of sugar, depending on what you do, either oil or butter, and a little bit of uh water, salt. You can add the pepper later if you're a believer that pepper makes things bitter, or uh you can uh you can add at the beginning. I sometimes add a little pepper, both because I like pepper on my veg. Uh, acids I usually add at the end just to kind of freshen it up a little bit and so that things don't turn change color, and then uh like quickly steam it, right?
+
+[44:33] And then after it's like steams, it reduces the sugars will get more syrupy and the oil will coat it, and then you can get a little bit of a brown on it if you get it just right and pop it out and it's all perfect. Now on the grill, right? You're not gonna have that steaming step. So you can either um if you want it to stay really crunchy, you can you can do like a uh a high initial heat and then wrap in aluminum foil and put to the edge and let them steam themselves out. The only problem is is that things that are green have a tendency, if you're not careful, of going a little bit olive brown.
+
+[45:06] Um the chlorophyll will will change. Um if that's not a problem for you, then don't worry about it. Another thing you can do is parboil or par steam them and then toss them in oil. I would reduce the sugar a little bit on the grill just because sugar has a tendency to really scorch on the grill with the flame, but you want enough oil on it to get a really rapid, nice heat transfer and to get some of that drip flare up for the um for the the flavor. And I'm assuming that your grill grate is small enough that the beans won't fall through.
+
+[45:38] If not, they sell at the Home Depot little baskets that um that are meant for this to hold the kind of hold small veg in so that they don't um fall through. Um I actually use those, I use not those kinds of baskets, but I use the clamshell meat baskets when I'm grilling on the thing because I do what I like to I I do like extremely high heat almost tandor style cooking where it's off on, off on, off on. And so those like those baskets make it easy for me to do a high volume of food in rotation because my food's going on like two or three separate times. But if you're not gonna do that, just make sure your beans don't uh fall in. And I want to probably give them some nice color on the grill, otherwise, you you know, you could just steam it on the grill in you know, in a packet of foil with some water and salt and pepper, but then why would you bother grilling?
+
+[46:27] You won't have all those nice grill flavors. Interesting fact, in the old days, uh like you know, before before, you know, back when everything had to be cooked over a fire, people would spend all of their time and energy trying to make sure that the fire taste wasn't in the food because everything was cooked by fire, and now we're the reverse. You know what I mean? Well, he's grilling outside because it's too hot to grill to heat up the house. Yeah, but grilling is still considered a a desirable, in other words, it's a desirable thing to have now, that grilled flavor.
+
+[46:55] So you might as well do it if you're going to if you're gonna do it. Whereas, you know, like I say, like, you know, in the in the 1700s, you're like, everything tastes of the fire. You know what I mean? So it's like it's it's it's just interesting culturally. It's not has nothing to do with Pat's problem, but it's just interesting how culturally we've switched.
+
+[47:13] It's the same way that Pat, you have that other thing that Dave didn't answer when we texted him. Uh Pat texted me? Yeah, and I followed up and then I followed up again and then he ignored it. Pat, the only way to get through to Dave is to tweet him because he cares about his That's not true. Uh also I find the radio.
+
+[47:28] If there's 50, listen, people, again, okay, boomer on myself. If there's 50 texts, I read the last one. The last way to get in touch with you with it. Yeah, but like when you guys touch with you guys. You guys did look Nastasia Lopez and her friends, and also unfortunately, because Nastasi Lopez is my business partner with the Boondogler, you know, like the you get these text chains where it's like your phone sounds like it's like Vesuvius erupting out of your pocket.
+
+[48:01] Oh, tell me about it. Listen, living on the West Coast and waking up to one of these things that's been going on for three hours since 5 30 in the morning is is a specific level. I read the I read the last text, maybe one or two before. But if if it's like a 30 text chain long, oh my god, my three. It was three texts, right?
+
+[48:21] I just want to be clear, Dave, that I'm I'm totally cool with all of this, and uh uh I'm not throwing any shade about this because I don't read text messages or emails either. Um but I would like to detork because uh as Nastasia knows, I used to live in New Mexico, and while I was there I fell in love with Hatch Chili, uh green chili, red chili that goes on uh just about everything in in in New Mexican cuisine. And being in Los Angeles now, um one of the things I love about it is that that's actually recognized here, and you can get hatched chili, which in most of the other places I've lived, you don't really see that. And so right now, uh end of end of summer, early autumn is hatch chili season. Um it's the time when when you can get it.
+
+[49:02] I'm gonna buy a big bushel of it and roast it out on my uh charcoal grill and uh put it in everything for the next few months, freeze it, et cetera. And I had the idea the other day, I was out some with some friends and they were talking about infusing uh whiskey with something they were doing, and I thought, oh, well, maybe I could put some uh hatched chili. I could infuse some booze with hatch chili and get my uh my hatch fix and fuel my alcoholism at the same time. Uh and also it's then something to do, which is really what being single and unemployed in the pandemic is. It's all about filling the time between uh staring out the window for an hour in the afternoon and watching TV at night.
+
+[49:43] So um w w uh what how long how long is this time? The stair time, an hour of stair time? Uh yeah, plus or minus. Okay. Yeah, I've actually been doing some of it uh during the radio show while other people are talking.
+
+[49:57] Nice. I appreciate that. Uh it's good it's good to stay on top. So hatch chili, I actually just cooked hatched chili two nights ago. Um so you're you're roasting them and then you're gonna peel them, right?
+
+[50:08] Because one of the problems with hatched chili is that the um the skin is relatively tough on a hatch chili. Yeah, the skin is bad. You gotta peel it after you roast it. Yeah. For those of you, if you buy the fresh hatch and you're like, what's the big deal ball?
+
+[50:20] Just realize that like unlike a very thin skinned chili, like a um, you know, like uh Shoshido or a Padron or one of these other things, you should like take the skin off of it after you roast it. Although other than that, they they strangely do make a good kind of well, they're they you can fry them up, or even if you have like uh I I roasted mine actually in the Breville Smart Air. I just tossed a little oil on it to increase heat transfer and brevel smarted it and then peel the skin off. Good. Excellent.
+
+[50:49] And also you can freeze them with the skin on, and it's easier to peel the skin off after you freeze them if you're freezing them for later. Oh, good tip. Hey, listen, if you have a bushel, you think it's like I can't picture a bushel in my mind, but are you at the point where you want an Amazon one of the rotary, one of the rotary roasters? I'm not at the point. But a lot of the uh the bougie grocery stores like Gelson's and uh uh uh Bristol Farms and things like that around Los Angeles have roasters that come to them on the weekends.
+
+[51:16] Uh yeah so uh so they have those. And then in New Mexico, of course, those are just on the side of the highway. You drive down the road and there's a dude there spinning that thing all day. Uh I think they're pretty cheap now, those things. If like on eBay, like you get people who are like as a cottage industry will just make them and sell them.
+
+[51:30] And do you know what an alternative use for those on your grill outdoors is besides hatched chilies? What's that? Coffee roasting. People use them as uh coffee roasters on their grill as well because it's got it's it's a similar problem. You want the heat to get in, you want the smoke to get out, and uh you need to keep it relatively um evenly heated.
+
+[51:49] I would I would guess that you would turn it faster for coffee because I've never owned one of those things, but just FYI. Okay. This feels like it could it could take up my afternoons for days. There you go. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[51:59] It might be worth it for you if you're sitting there roasting the coffee. Uh and you know, if anyone wants like beginning home coffee roasting stuff, I'll you know, ask and we'll give it to you offline or whatever. Anyway, uh on to the um text. Onto the onto the liquor problem. Um most of the liquor infusions that I have done have been with uh spicier peppers than um than the hatch.
+
+[52:22] Uh another interesting thing is the skins might be of use here. I don't know how bitter they are on their own. I just I just don't like them from a texture standpoint. Um so you're not gonna get a lot of heat off of the hatch. You will get uh flavor.
+
+[52:35] I would probably think it would be better in a white liquor because most of those kind of green-flavored things are better in white liquors. So um, I mean, you could try it. I mean, I would I would just do a test of uh, you know, just like you know, smash one into some bourbon and taste it and see whether you like what's going on. But um a lot of times things that whose primary flavor is green refly rely on the kind of green freshness from the green leaf volatiles that you get out of uh something, and they can be they can change somewhat and become more swampy over time. So that's the one thing I would kind of guard against is just making sure that they're not getting swampy.
+
+[53:17] So I would, I would I would test it in a small amount uh and just you know, I would taste it after like a week or two, and then I would see um then I would I would hold it, right? So you have it all frozen, so you can do it whenever you want, right? So then after a week or so I would taste it, see if it's got enough flavor, and if it does, I would um I would probably strain it off as soon as the flavor gets where you want, and then I would do a stability test. And usually stability tests um for something that contains fresh fed flavor, like they start changing after like a week or two, you'll start noticing the the flavor in your mind, quote unquote deteriorate, but all is not lost because then you can hold it for like two or three months, sipping a little bit at a time to see whether it changes, and some things come back after six months. Uh I've I've had things come back after like eight months.
+
+[54:12] If it hasn't started coming back to goodness again within, you know, eight months or a year, it probably won't. The longest I've ever tried to store something to see whether it would come back is five years. It did not come back. Radish. The radish.
+
+[54:28] I was hoping the fart smell would go away on uh on a radish uh infusion that I had made. It did not. Uh it stayed. So he's just infusing by putting it into the bottle. He's not centrifuging, he's just putting the well the the problem with centrifuging is that it was if you could centrifuge it, but then you're just you're literally just adding pepper juice to it, right?
+
+[54:50] Or you you could do like a Houstino, right? You're gonna lower the ABV of it rather significantly. The the good thing about doing a Houstino is some of the products from the liquor will be you know, it's it's an interesting process. It's different. I I was thinking you were gonna do a straight a straight infusion, more of a uh like a a traditional straight in infusion.
+
+[55:15] Now you could also say, are you doing it with roasted or are you doing it with with fresh, right? They're gonna be very different. I would bet the roasted one is probably a more stable flavor than the fresh. But if fresh is what you're looking for, um, you know, it depends. Like, you know, I I think a lot of the characteristic like stuff of a of a hatch comes out of the roasting.
+
+[55:36] Um I've never really sat around eating them fresh. I mean, what do you think, Pat? Uh I wouldn't I I don't think I have either. So, you know, the roasting is definitely uh you get that smokiness, you know, you get that nice that nice fiery grill taste to it that you want in everything you grill. There you go.
+
+[55:51] Nowadays. Um yeah, so I would just I would just try to do a traditional infusion, and then if you like it, I mean obviously, you know, if you mail uh, you know, us some, we can spin some down in a spinz all and then like you know, send you back the frozen, the frozen cubes wrapped in wet newspaper uh, you know, and dirt. Fresh from this, I'll send you a package full of dirt and yeah, yeah, yeah that yeah mama mama Lopez will wrap anything in wet newspaper and dirt uh what was the thing if I had once if I had my if I had my own spinzall would I I would I could do that myself yeah yeah and so I would I would want to spin the roasted peppers to there's two ways to do it. You can make the juice but I would actually recommend doing what's called a gustino where you blend the liquor and the pepper together and then spin them out. I've had bad luck with fresh red bell peppers that bad maybe I should say bad luck.
+
+[56:48] I've had okay luck. It's never where I kind of wanted it to be um whereas I've had terrific luck with you know hot pepper. So and it's got a lot to depend on the booze but you would just blend them together and then spin them out and throw away the the puck. But the again the problem with that is that you are lowering the um the alcohol level so you're gonna want to start with a booze that's fairly high in uh in alcohol. Like Everclear.
+
+[57:16] And then uh well that's it but that tastes disgusting but let's say you did Everclear. If you did everclear you could do almost one-to-one chili and everclear and spin it out and have something that is you know on the order of 40% alcohol right and so that should be like as hatch and as stable as you could possibly be. Now if you did ever clear and hatch, right, um it depends on how much of thatch flavor is coming through, maybe if you use it in small enough quantities, then that could be like an adjunct that you add to other things, right? So then you'd have like you know, your your main gin, and then you'd put a little bit of your your hatch tincture into the uh into the resulting uh thing to make it a hatch martini, right? Something like that could be that sounds like a great way to spend the next couple weeks.
+
+[58:09] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, an hour a day, and this should take a couple of weeks of experimenting. And since you're experimenting with liquor, it'll blur that out, and then you'll have to re-watch whatever the first couple of shows that you watch after you start uh into television. That's great. And then the next thing I know, it'll be October, and I'm 42 and unemployed, and uh life is beautiful.
+
+[58:29] What do you mean? I thought I thought that you were I thought oh, they're not no one's performing. No one's no one's working, yeah. No, everything was uh everything was going great until March. And then uh, you know, I I work mostly with orchestras and uh orchestras have a hundred people on stage and a couple thousand people in the audience.
+
+[58:43] And that doesn't really work right now. And so there's no way to session that, right? There's no way to just like show up at a studio and session an orchestra. I mean, people are doing it, but it's uh, you know, that's really cost prohibitive. And right now nobody has money coming in because they're not selling tickets and online content is not uh is not, you know, people haven't figured out a good way to monetize that.
+
+[59:03] Um and plus I'm not as a saxophonist, there's no saxophone, full-time saxophonists and orchestras. Every, you know, it's not like being a clarinet player where that's your job and you you get a salary for that. Um I just go in when they're needed and I play with different orchestras up and down the coast. Uh and so uh right now there's uh there's nothing. And so I'm just uh at home doing my own thing, which has actually been really uh really enlightening and and really a lot of fun.
+
+[59:29] I'm exploring new grounds uh in terms of making my own music and making videos and playing solo concerts for neighbors. I had a concert last night, I have one tomorrow night and tonight. Uh so uh, you know, I'm finding ways to keep busy, uh, but it's uh it's definitely a lifestyle change. And it's it's a lot harder to do because now I'm drunk all the time. Right, right, right.
+
+[59:44] Well that's you know classic musician, so you're all right. Yeah, exactly. Been training my whole life for this. Yeah, yeah. Now uh are people doing like uh commercial work?
+
+[59:57] Is that that like is that like gone up or is it basically stayed where it used to be so all those jobs are already taken by those commercial session music? Uh there is a little bit a limited amount of that going on. It is basically uh mostly taken by those session musicians. Um and the difference is that most of it has now moved to home studios. So people are actually recording, you know, you'll get you'll get a call to um record your own part and at your home and people do it in their living room or their home studios.
+
+[1:00:23] Um and then uh the people mixing the sound and mixing the music for the for the project have to take all of those different parts of a hundred different people and mix them together. And you know that's basically what happens in a studio but in the studio everybody's in the same room and all of the environments are controlled but when people do it at their home everybody has a different setup. Everybody has different sound uh different background noises and things like that. So it's it's a lot more complicated. And so um a lot of projects have gone to that a lot of projects uh some projects went to uh completely digital scale uh scores um where they use uh you know they use MIDI and sampled instruments and things uh to create the scores and so it's it's gonna hit the the studio music industry uh as well it is hitting the studio music industry as well how much different like in other words like how much do you think is lost if you're like the the people who are really good at it at not being together and playing.
+
+[1:01:18] Um, I would say it's it's a lot more cumbersome. Um, but uh the way that a lot of uh a lot of studio projects are recorded, um, you know, a lot of times they'll they'll they'll stripe it where they uh instead of having like an entire orchestra playing, like if you think of Star Wars and you think of the main theme of Star Wars, and you've got an entire, you got you know all the brass and all the strings and all the woodwinds and the harps and everything playing at the same time, um they'll go through and they'll say, okay, right now we're just gonna do only the low strings, and they have the cellos and basses, and and they'll just record that part. And then they'll go back and they'll do the the violins and the the violas, and then they'll go and they'll do the upper woodwinds. And so, you know, you're you're playing with a few other people usually, but not usually the whole uh experience of the whole orchestra. Um, and as a musician, you have to respond to everything that's going on.
+
+[1:02:07] You have to, you know, you have to hear and fit your part into it. And one of the things that studio musicians are so good at is playing uh so perfectly that they're whatever they're playing is gonna fit it can fit in no matter what with everything else that's going on because they're playing exactly in time, exactly in tune, um, and exactly with the right inflections. And so um you lose a little bit of that by doing it on your own with nobody else in the room, but at the same time, the way that that uh industry works, um uh, you know, it's it's people have been prepping for that. That's that that's how that's how they work anyway. Um, I think what's lost from it though uh is that it is so much more labor intensive to uh prepare tracks for people to work with in their home studios and then to take individual tracks from people in their home studios and balance them and clean them up and get them all consistent and then work them together.
+
+[1:03:02] So it's it's so much more labor intensive on the part of the mixers and the editors that uh that that then takes more time and more money, and that's what causes the slowdown. So I'm gonna let's say I'm gonna hire Pat Posey to pay play a piece of uh music let's say for my upcoming uh our upcoming product release which isn't until probably this time next year now right stuff. But that's a Broadway type thing. No yeah but let's say we're gonna I'm just say let's say we're gonna hire Pat Posey right and we haven't decided yet. We haven't decided yet we haven't decided whether the music's gonna be digiredo whether it's going to be clarinet whether it's going to be saxophone or oboe.
+
+[1:03:42] Do you charge differently depending on like the instrument and whether or not you're like these jokers aren't gonna find another diggeredoist so I'm gonna jack them for the didj redo. Well yes I mean that's that certainly goes into the calculus you know the um we musicians we have a union and the union has for a long time fought for um for uh rights for musicians and one of the things that has been in place forever is uh doubling rates and so if you play one instrument you get paid there's a certain rate that is set uh depending on the work for playing one instrument for a certain amount of time and there are work roles that go along with that if you are asked to play a second instrument then uh you get a doubling fee which is generally uh 20 25% on top of whatever you're getting and so uh and then there's you know you get doubles beyond that if you get three instruments there's another fee on top of that and so it can go on and on so basically every instrument that you play uh you get you you get paid more money and that percentage uh which starts at roughly 25% decreases slightly with every instrument so that's on top of that. So you make more money if I have you play all those instruments. Yeah, that's true. And but so but then it is this trying to incentivize me to hire different musicians because I'm like, well.
+
+[1:04:59] No, because if you hire uh if you hire me to play saxophone and then someone else to play clarinet, you're essentially paying 200% because each each of us are getting paid 100%. Uh if you hire me to play saxophone and clarinet, you're paying 125%. So it's cheaper to hire one person, which is why if you look, um, part of why if you look in a pit at a Broadway show, um, you know, you have people down there that are playing in the win section and playing flute clarinet over. I mean West Side Story, the first the lead read book for West Side Story is Soprano Sacks, Alto Sax, uh Piccolo, flute, and clarinet. And that's all one musician just rack and scale up.
+
+[1:05:36] That's one musician, yeah. This is how the triangulist makes fat bank because they're doing triangle and all those other weird little things. Well, no, we're not percussionists are a whole different ball game. So percussionists, uh, as I understand it, uh the percussion uh percussion and timpani are two separate instruments, but all of the other percussion gear um are included under the umbrella of percussion, so someone gets paid one fee to play all of that. However, as a percussionist, you also get cardage, which is uh an extra fee on top of your performance fee for schlepping all of that gear.
+
+[1:06:10] Which we don't get as doublers. You know, if I have to bring seven horns to a gig, I get paid a lot of money for the gig, but I don't get cartridge. Cardage. All right, we gotta we got it, we gotta go. Pat, thank you.
+
+[1:06:22] Yeah, I gotta go. I have something to do too. Yeah, all right, great. Super. Thanks for that.
+
+[1:06:27] All right, uh, thanks for calling in. Thanks, guys. Bye bye. So, uh Dave, I'll text you. Alright, cool.
+
+[1:06:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we got a question in from Jacob Schroeder. Greetings, cooking issues. Jacob Schroeder here writing from Des Moines. I've never been to Iowa.
+
+[1:06:41] You guys ever been to Iowa? Yeah, Iowa City. It's nice. Yeah. I am new to the game when it comes to listening to podcasts and we've gotten a great start getting caught up with your extensive bat backlog.
+
+[1:06:52] Only on 87 though. Jacob's only on 87. Well, you're in for a long, long, long ride. Uh I've started a digital note to keep track of the myriad questions I have, but wanted to start with a few that are currently on the front burner. Forgive me if these questions have been covered on the shows in one of the 300 episodes I have not yet listened to.
+
+[1:07:11] One, I made a corn stock slash tea slash infusion by covering all of the inedible parts, cobs with kernels removed, fresh husks, silk stem, etc. with water, bringing it to a boil, removing from the heat, letting it sit for an hour before straining. The resulting product has a clean, sweet, grassy aroma and flavor. If it's possible, what would I need to turn this stuff into vinegar? And I'm also open to any other solutions of what to do with two cat two gallons of this corn goodness that don't include reduction, super stew, uh using as a cooking medium for grains, um, etc.
+
+[1:07:45] I've got a refractometer, so talk to me in terms of bricks. Well, anyway, if you want to make vinegar, the key thing with vinegar is remember vinegar starts with uh alcohol. So you either have to add alcohol to it, or you have to add enough sugar to it to make it ferment into uh alcohol. So, like if you're starting with sugar, uh, you're gonna want to get somewhere um between uh 10 and 18 bricks on it to uh get the sugar level where it will be, pitch it with yeast, it will go through alcoholic fermentation, and then if you're lucky, once oxygen hits it, it'll go through acetic acid fermentation and go through. Um, and obviously the higher the final alcohol level, the higher the uh acidity of the of the vinegar when you're done.
+
+[1:08:34] However, uh you don't want to go too much alcohol because anything over about 12% alcohol, and it's gonna start decreasing uh the activity of the acetobacter. And remember acetobacter needs uh um air, uh oxygen. And anything above 15 will pretty much stop it. So those those are the kind of numbers that you're gonna want to work with. Um if you want to get a book on it, uh Heritage Radio's own uh Michael Harlan Turkell in 2017 wrote a book called Acid Trip.
+
+[1:09:04] Travels in the world of vinegar with recipes from leading chefs, insights from top producers, and step-by-step instructions on how to make your own. Hairy Rosenblum, also if you're promoting Heritage Network people. That's a good book. Nice. All right, cool.
+
+[1:09:15] All right. Uh and also Sandor Katz's books on uh fermentation are good to have uh on vinegar specifically. I don't know whether uh Ariel's or David Zilber's book goes into vinegar in their fermentation. Zilber's does and they even accelerate it with use of an aquarium pump. So oh, to oxygenate it?
+
+[1:09:35] Yeah, that's that sounds very that sounds very uh very Noma-y. Um now uh Alex and Aki from uh Ideas and Food uh released a recipe that is not that is based on just adding booze to a liquid. Uh and you know, they when they do their maple syrup uh vinegar, they just started with uh rum and maple syrup. Uh so they did eight, but they used a live vinegar, it's actually primarily a live vinegar. So they started with a live vinegar, 800 grams of live vinegar, 950 grams of maple syrup, 300 grams uh rum, uh 200 grams water, uh, and then they just let that thing uh rock.
+
+[1:10:13] So you could do any any kind of one of a number of those things. Just remember that um you need to have enough uh kind of good other micronutrients in there aside from just sugar for them to feed on. For all you know, the corn stalk will provide enough. So you it's possible that just adding the right amount of booze to the corn stuff is enough to get the acetobacter kicked in if you put a good mother in it. But I would read read a book by an expert on vinegar, but it sounds like it should work.
+
+[1:10:40] Uh second question is I recently acquired a an OC2100R, aka the Korean machine, uh, which is a it's OCO, the brand name is OCOO. Uh, and if you look at it online, I had never seen one of these before. It's it's basically like a long-term like electric pressure cooker/slash double boiler. So it's like a ceramic thing that maintains like a high heat but under pressure for a long time. Um so I think any one of the long-term pressure cooking things would work in it, like uh uh you but you could do a regular pressure cooker too, like Hamme eggs.
+
+[1:11:16] I think people have been experimenting doing like hyper-accelerated black garlic things with them. Um I don't know, but I've never used one. But your question is, um, by the way, uh I I don't know whether the one that you bought is a uh a European model or a um or an American uh sorry or a South Korean model. The difference between South Koreans power is 220 volt 60 Hz and Europe's power is 220 volt 50 Hz. But since there's no motor in it, I'm assuming that this thing can work well on either 50 or 60 hertz.
+
+[1:11:49] I was only able to find information on it uh on a website whose language I could not um read. Uh so you say the electrical plug that's attached um does not have a grounded plug. I'm no expert electrician, but operate under the assumption that grounded plugs are better than non-grounded plugs. Should I replace a non-grounded plug with a grounded one? Replacing a grounded plug in a non-grounded piece of equipment is not going to be helpful because there needs to be a path to ground for the actual uh equipment.
+
+[1:12:16] If it's in a kitchen and you're cooking in the United States, you're gonna be cooking with a uh GFI. And um if you're using a GFI, um, it shouldn't be a problem. Just remember, I mean, I can't see the converter that you sent, but you're gonna need to step this thing up to 220 volts. All right. Um we probably gotta call it for today.
+
+[1:12:40] Oh, we have a call? No, we'll call it. We'll save these four questions for next time. Save them for next time. I got all these questions, and I have I have a huge classics in the field.
+
+[1:12:49] All right. Well, all the classics in the field for today was Richard Scary. I am a bunny! I live in a hollow tree. That is a great You know, you know it, Matt.
+
+[1:13:00] It's not just me now. You you're you're familiar with it? I'm sorry, I don't actually know it. I failed you. Uh what about torch?
+
+[1:13:10] Okay, listen, I'll say this on the way out. Uh anyone out there, we have an interesting marketing uh problem. Is that so? I don't know if you know this, but Nastasi and I made this product called the Searsol, which is like a handheld broiler. Uh that uh it turns your torch into a handheld broiler.
+
+[1:13:27] And just the stuff, you gotta give five, we gotta get five minutes on torches. There's uh that, and we make uh a centrifuge called the spinzall, which is currently out of stock, and we're trying to find out when it's gonna come back and stop. Stop pestering John about it. We will let you know. Yes, the factory won't get back to us.
+
+[1:13:42] We will let you know when we can convince them to build it again. You Americans don't understand that it's the customer is not always right when you're talking to a factory. We're begging and pleading with them to make another round of this stuff. We'll let you know, but it is at least five months out. At least.
+
+[1:13:59] Um so, anyways, uh we have this habit of making products that don't have any other analogs on the market, and then we have to figure out well, how much, you know, how how many of these can we sell? Like, like, what is a price that is reasonable? Because then we have to argue with the factory to get their price down to a level where we can afford to buy it to sell it to you guys. So, anyone out there who knows how to figure out like marketing for products that don't exist, right? Give us a holler.
+
+[1:14:31] Maybe, you know, maybe we can talk, right, Stas, or no? Um, lastly, uh Burns-Matic, the people that make the TS8000 torch, which is the torch that we have been recommending uh to everyone for how many years we've been making this thing, Stas? Nine. That long? No, we haven't been making the Sears all for that long.
+
+[1:14:51] I don't know, but it hasn't been that long. We've only been working together 13 years, right? I don't know. Eight, eight something. Anyway, so the um we've been recommending this one torch for all of these years.
+
+[1:15:03] Millions of dollars in revenue in torches for the burns a matic people. And a couple of weeks ago, I go on their website and they trash talk the Sears All and say that the Sears All is not recommended to use with their torch because John, do you have the quote there anywhere? Can you find it real quick? Yeah, let't see. Find it's gonna be.
+
+[1:15:23] But they they tell lies about the Searsol product, right? And then tell you that instead of using the Searsol, you should use their heat shrink torch, which I've tested, it's garbage, doesn't do the same thing at all, right? And so currently I am mad. Okay. You got it?
+
+[1:15:40] Yeah. Burn somatic torches are precisely engineered to produce the most efficient flame with the tip provided. Modifications or attachments may impact the torch performance and are not recommended. Um where is it? Please not burn somatic.
+
+[1:15:53] Product warranty is void if it's used with this. Uh, if you need heat. Wait, why isn't it saying it? They modified it. Oh, they definitely modified it.
+
+[1:16:02] People, people, people, cooking issues listeners. Boom! So they had this, they had this thing up on their website that said that using the Sears all melts their torch from the inside out. And I I s and I sent them a nasty, nasty, nasty email. I said, listen, you can you cannot recommend our product if you like.
+
+[1:16:24] It's your company and it's your product, but it's not your right to lie about us. And so and so, and I like included their quote and they changed it. Huh? Look at that, huh? So, anyway, I'm dying to find another person's uh another company that I can, you know, try to sell a lot of their product for them and then get zero respect back from them.
+
+[1:16:46] And so uh you know, to that end, we've looked on the Amazon. By the way, Amazon now is no longer selling the TS8000 at the at the old cheap price, so you have to get it at big box like Lowe's or Home Depot. But the one that everyone is selling now is a 9XTL from Blue Flame, which is looks to me like a straight knockoff of the of the TS8000. It's not made by the same people because when you hold them like side by side, they're slightly different, but it is a straight uh knockoff. Now, the people who make this blue flame, I think literally just reverse engineered it and don't really understand uh kind of torch technology as well as I'd like them to because um it's not tuned right out of the box.
+
+[1:17:30] So right now I can't recommend to people on Amazon to buy uh the 9XTL, the blue flame, simply because if you pull it out of the box and just try to use it, it doesn't work. There's too way too much gas comes out. Um I had to turn the gas knob adjustment until it was almost off and to get it to work uh with the same proper number of uh of gas uh output in terms of BTUs as the TS8000. But I'm gonna do more measurement, but just know that if you detune also the vortex generator is a little too close to the surface on the on the uh 9XTL, but it will work. But if you get one of these blue flame things, please, and maybe we maybe we can post something uh on um Booker Index.
+
+[1:18:16] I'll send a picture of what the flame should not look like for use with a torch or with a Sears all and what it should look like. And then those of you that have one of these blue flames can properly tune your torch to uh have it um work with the with the Sears all right out of the box. And again, more on that because we're taking all kinds of infrared photography and in the next uh of Sears alls and in the next month or two, uh, we should have some product news on stuff that we're uh working on. Uh but anyway, that's that. And the rest of it we'll have to uh save for later.
+
+[1:18:47] We're back in stock on Amazon, right, Nastasia? Yes. You have anything else uh for business that for our business that you want to tell people? No, I think uh according to Matt, we have to go. Okay, geez Louise.
+
+[1:18:59] All right, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:19:14] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:19:37] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Vertera Dinnerware. Learn more at Vertera.com. That's V-E-R-T-E-R-R-A.com. It's September, and as the days get shorter and temperatures cooler, it's time to go back to school. This week on Meet and Three, we're looking at how lunchtime is changing from elementary schools through college.
+
+[0:23] Whether classes are remote or in person. While there was some information about where families could access food, it was spread out on many different websites. I'm seeing people, you know, advocate for like going back into school. And a main reason is you know, food insecurity. Like kids go to school and they get fed.
+
+[0:44] And I'm just that's a whole other thing of like fight for kids to be fed versus like going to school. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Kisses. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive from the lower east side of Manhattan on the Heritage Radio Network. As usual, joined by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez.
+
+[1:19] Uh I think you're live from Stanford right now. Is that true? On the coast? Nope. I texted you last night.
+
+[1:25] I am in the Hamptons. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. You're in the Hamptons. Right.
+
+[1:29] You're still there, whatever. But it's basically you're looking at the same body of water, right? Because you're staring at the snow just in the other direction. Oh, you're on the other side. Hamptons are on the ocean.
+
+[1:38] I thought both were the Hamptons. No. What's the other side called? North Fork. Whatever.
+
+[1:46] Uh and joined uh by uh our intrepid uh customer service representative. John, how you doing? And John, you are b uh not in Alpine. Because you're a cooking charge. You are you were cooking for uh Jokovich and uh that throat ball took him out of the running.
+
+[2:12] And so, you know, for those of you that don't know, this like world's like one of the world's most famous and you know, I guess best tennis players got ticked off, swatted a ball, hit a line judge in the throat. She went down, as we were discussing beforehand, like the grape lady from the thing, but unlike the grape lady, hadn't done anything wrong, didn't deserve to get hit in the throat with the ball. Uh and so he was in even though it was unintentional, he was instantly disqualified, right? Yep. Instantly.
+
+[2:47] Yeah. And so then, you know, you know, you you were no longer making the room temperature quinoa as a result. Is that true? That is true too. Yep.
+
+[2:55] Yeah. Let me ask you a question. Uh I know that like he hightailed it out because he didn't want to talk to anyone because if you know everyone felt bad about the whole thing. But do you get the impression that he eats room temperature stuff only during training time? Like like a boxer does, or is this like an all the time kind of a sitch?
+
+[3:15] I don't know. That's a good question, actually. I should ask my friend about that. Um yeah, I don't know. That's a really good question.
+
+[3:22] I hope he eats happier food when he's not training. But who knows? Yeah, I mean, because like I mean, I would do it for the amount of money that he made. How much of you said he's made lifetime in tennis? So far, $750 million dollars.
+
+[3:36] Wow. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I would I would probably eat with an IV, you know, for the duration of my career, if that's what it took, you know, for for that kind of money. But I mean, unless you're making that kind of money and all you're doing is like tucking into like unspicy room temperature, gluten-free grains uh 20%, you know, the all the time. I'd be like, oh gee, but you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.
+
+[4:02] I mean, what are you gonna do with all that money if you're not enjoying it? I guess he doesn't enjoy the food, maybe. Maybe he doesn't enjoy food. I don't know. Anyway.
+
+[4:10] Uh did come out with a cookbook like 10 years ago, so I think he enjoys food to some capacity. Did you read the cookbook? Uh yeah, we did. But it's so out of date because it had gluten recipes in it, it had fish and other things in there. Um, and he doesn't need any of that anymore.
+
+[4:26] So he wrote the book? Well, I mean, supposedly, yeah. As much as one does when you're that famous. But he it has his imprimatur on it. Yeah.
+
+[4:37] It's been stamped by his errant tenant tennis ball, so to speak. So we should, you should take a look at it, analyze the recipes, and let's get back and see whether the guy even theoretically at one point had a love for food. Fair. I can do that. Because I'm I'm interested in, I'm interested in knowing.
+
+[4:52] So then uh before we went on air, last night I did the public lecture uh for every year, uh Harold McGee and I go and we start up uh the Harvard Science of Cooking uh lecture at hat. Harold's been doing it for 11 years. I've been doing it, I think, for like 10, 9 or 10. And we do a public lecture, which is not the same as the class, and then we do a uh, you know, the the student lecture, which I have to do later on this afternoon. And uh this time they did it on Zoom, and I think they're gonna make it available, but I can't find a link.
+
+[5:26] So Nastasia was asking me how it went, and let me just say that trying to do Zoom with like demos, and like so I was trying to do demos and share a PowerPoint and try to run my infrared thermal camera to do demos all at the same time off of one computer. And that is don't do that. Nastasia would have loved like just seeing in the background. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[6:05] Like, you know, you want the behind the scenes video, yeah. She wouldn't even sit there and she'd be like, Dave, you're not doing your demos fast enough. Dave, you definitely. Wait, where was Jen? Was Jen helping you or dad?
+
+[6:16] Yeah, well, even so, but like still, like the problem is is that like I needed to be at the computer, so it's not like Jen could be at the computer, and it's not like I brought her in like eight hours beforehand and walked her through every step of what I was gonna do because at that point I didn't even know what I was gonna do. You know how I am. So like I had to run, but yeah, but she even with her helping me, it's just trying to funnel your entire brain when you're doing like like uh your camera, your your overview camera, and this was without OBS, because I'm doing it straight into Zoom, and like a PowerPoint, it just doesn't, it just doesn't, it's hard. Anyway, uh so yeah, so I I learned about that. But I did in the process, and uh Nastasia, I used the lecture as the starting point to run actual experiments that are gonna be in the actual moisture management cookbook.
+
+[7:10] So you'll be happy to know, or unhappy, I don't know who has money on me which way. But one of you, hopefully, will be happy to know that I'm officially doing things that are gonna be in the book. Not just thinking about it like I have been for the last couple of years, but I'm actually running experiments that are going to be in the Miracle of Moisture Management working title. And actually, I'm gonna use some of that information when I'm talking later about one of the questions people uh have today. Um what are you doing in the Hamptons Grill?
+
+[7:43] You've been grilling. No, I'm here with uh Yeah, yeah, but like how are you cooking? Are you cooking inside or doing you're still doing outdoor cooking? Uh we're not cooking. Not cooking.
+
+[7:56] Alright. That's another way to cook is to have other people cook. You know, some people's favorite way of cooking is to have other people cook, so yeah. Yeah. And uh Matt, presumably you're still in the uh Rhode Island?
+
+[8:08] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been hosting my hosting my mother-in-law, whose favorite way of cooking is to have other people cook. So I've been doing a lot of cooking. Uh I kicked my mother-in-law out of this house so that we could do the show, and you wouldn't hear her. So that's a strong move.
+
+[8:24] And uh uh let me just say that I feel maybe I should say thank you. Yeah, I feel that we're tight enough that you can use me and Nastasia as an excuse. Hey, look, hey, look, uh mother-in-law, it's not uh it's not me. It's these other jerks are gonna kick you out, so you gotta get out. And you can use me like that.
+
+[8:46] Yeah, also they recorded other, they recorded other uh episodes, uh, you know, 1 p.m., 2 p.m., 3 p.m., 4 p.m., it's scheduled all day. You have to leave. I think Nastasia and I are fine being the bad guys for this. So Nastasia, are you fine being the bad guy for this? Oh, is it?
+
+[8:59] Hey, want to hear something weird that happened this morning when we were biking back from the beach. I was saying, I was talking about how a lot of people believe that Prince is around them, you know, like his ghost. And then I was like, I don't really understand it, and then boom, a transformer like burst, and the power lines like started shaking, and everyone freaked out on the street. It was crazy. But yeah, but okay, that seems like that seems like an amazing coincidence, people who are listening, until you realize the fact that about 90% of what Nastasia says for the past month has been this thing about Prince.
+
+[9:44] So 90% of the time off air. It's like you're sitting there. That's such an exaggeration. And any any any silent break that you have, like if you're just sitting there with Nastasia, and there's like maybe like like you know, five minutes of silence while you're doing something, there's never five minutes with you. She'll be like, she'll be like, you know, you know, uh, they think everything's a fence.
+
+[10:10] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So no, and now we have proof. It's true. Well, no, but I'm saying, like, if the average person, right, out of nowhere was like, you know what I read on the internet today for the first time in my life ever, and I've never thought about it before, is all of these celebrities who feel that they that Prince is haunting them.
+
+[10:29] And then, and I think that's a load of Malaki. And then boom, a thing blew up. That would be a coincidence for the ages. You know what I'm saying? That's basically what happened this morning, is when I was here, Dave.
+
+[10:45] I'm happy to believe. I'm happy to believe it. Try it. Try it. Like talk to your mother-in-law about it and see what happens.
+
+[10:54] That among certain people there is, and I didn't realize this, but it's also a uh a plot line uh uh in the most recent season of uh billions. Prince Billions. No, uh the uh the what so like the birther movement is that terrible thing with you know we all know what that is, but what's the equivalent movement call for Stevie Wonder can see? There's an equivalent terrible, and and that is also as a joke, making the run of the celebrity things, and was recently featured in billions. So, like, you know, uh that one's never gonna you're never gonna get anything uh the people on billions said that Stevie Wonder could see.
+
+[11:36] No, they mentioned it as a as a crazy like birther-like thing. It came up like two, three times in the most recent season. Yeah, uh-huh. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[11:46] People, Stevie Wonder cannot see. Like, I don't even know where that can't where that comes from. Where does that crazy a lot of people think a lot of people? Well, the important thing is that someone in Nastasia's family also shares this view, but OG, OG, way before any of the way before anyone else was talking about it, way before this was a thing. There's a person in Nastasia's family who's been like the whole time be like, that dude.
+
+[12:10] Well, so I think in Prince's book or somebody's book, he says that he thought that Stevie Wonder could see because at the four seasons hotel in some uh country, Stevie walked straight to the elevator after checking in and pressed his floor. And someone was like, or maybe Prince was like, How did you do that? Or how does he do that? And uh Stevie's like, I memorized all the layouts, or all the four season layout hotel uh hotel layouts are the same. So I memorized it.
+
+[12:41] And everyone's like, hmm. Well, not to mention, I mean, elevator go ding. You know what I mean? Elevator goes ding. But still, Dave, like, I don't know.
+
+[12:54] And here's another thing. How do you find it? You know what Stevie Wonder probably doesn't do? Walk by himself anywhere. The dude is famous.
+
+[13:05] No entourage. I'm supposed to believe that Stevie Wonder had no entourage. When Prince's ghost comes back to me, I will ask if there was an entrepreneur. I'm also gonna say that not every you know, like ground floor of the four seasons, like they can't all have the same layout. I believe he's blind.
+
+[13:22] I have no idea. That seems a little a little far-fetched. What's to believe? It's a freaking fact. This is what happens nowadays in like in this kind of post-truth crazy world that we live in.
+
+[13:37] You could legitimately that what? The Atari ad. Oh no, that's just a fake. That's a fake. It's probably like Nastasi and I got fooled years ago by a fake ad where someone no, it was like two years ago, isn't it?
+
+[13:55] We got we got fooled by a fake ad that someone did in from the 70s of Stevie Wonder, a younger, much younger Stevie Wonder, ostensibly advertising the Atari 2600. And but it was funny because we thought it was real at the time, and we're like, I can't believe that the 70s were so horrible and offensive. Yeah, they would do this. People let him do this. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:17] But it's all fake anyway. So but you can go look it up. After we had sent it to people, being like, look at this. Yeah, look at this crazy thing. And they're like, I knew we could see.
+
+[14:25] Um but um, although the the the premise of it is that he can't see. But the point is is that I can't believe that we live in a world where John seriously has to say, I believe that he can't see, right? I mean, like where so like this crazy freaking theory has enough legitimacy that you actually have to take sides. You know what I mean? That's like look, uh I believe that the sky is blue, but you know what I mean?
+
+[14:58] No, no, sky blue, sky is blue. You know what I mean? Like it's like earth round, you know what I mean? Like round-ish, uh, mostly round. Because in December, oh no, it was Shaq.
+
+[15:10] It was Shaq who saw him walk into an elevator. Yeah, yeah, that was the thing. It was who? Shaq said Shaq, the basketball player? Yeah.
+
+[15:19] Yeah. And then he told that to Prince, and it made it in Prince's memo. No, are you reading Shaq's memoir? No, no, no. Shaq said it on Inside the NBA that show, and he said, I'm gonna tell y'all a Stevie Wonder story, but you're not gonna believe me.
+
+[15:32] And then uh he said, we live in a building on Wilshire Boulevard, you park your car in the valets down there. I'm already in the building and come coming through the lobby, the elevator door opens, and it's Stevie Wonder, and he says, Hey, what's up, Shaq? Presses the button and goes up. And he was like, How did he know it was me? I mean, I I I don't know.
+
+[15:58] I I don't know. But the explanation is probably in Shaq's memory of this. Anthony also said on the Stephen Colbert show, what y'all don't know is that Stevie can see it's just an act. Even fellow music icon Lionel Richie believes the theories are true and expresses on the Kelly Clark. This Kelly Clarkson has a show.
+
+[16:22] This is all ridiculous anyway. I feel like they were all just hanging out at a party together at one point, and then they were like, hey, you know what would be hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Stevie was like, yeah, go for it. Sounds awesome.
+
+[16:35] Yeah. Steven Lunar's probably saying, like, whatever, man. You know what I mean? Whatever. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:42] I don't know. So ridiculous. The whole thing is so ridiculous. I mean, I I I can't I can't. I can't.
+
+[16:50] I can't even. Let's talk about cooking. I can't, I can't, I can't even. Let's just file this on a on a on a I can't even. Question that I have for the cooking issues people out there who are listening.
+
+[17:02] Uh, this is my question where I get to ask it because it's not anywhere online that I can find. So this is one where I have actually attempted to Google the answer to it. I asked the manufacturer of the equipment, right? And I still was not able to get a satisfactory answer. So look, nowadays, it used to be that uh, you know, when I was working at the at the FCI, that the the holy grail of kitchen scales was a kitchen scale that could do uh a large amount, let's say like 10 kilos, but do it to a relatively accurate uh level.
+
+[17:35] Let's say a tenth of a gram, right? And I found an old one, and I bought one, and Nils Norrin, you know, who was running the school at the time, he bought one personally. They eventually broke, and I didn't have them anymore. And the the main problem with having like a very fine accurate, one of the main problems of having a very fine accuracy and uh and a large weight range is that the larger the weight range, usually the bigger the um plate that's on the scale. And the plate on the scale, uh, if you try to do things that are very accurate, like you know, uh a hundredth of a gram, let's say, uh air currents in in the air literally move the thing around, and it's hard for it to be um super stable.
+
+[18:16] Now the other thing that in that it changes the inherent accuracy of the scale uh is what's called the the A to D, the analog to digital chip. So what they're doing is is that as you push on a scale, there's a uh little thing uh when you when you push on it and it's changing uh the resistance of uh it's the force, you know, the the oh my god, the word of her just went out of my head, but anyways, changing the resistance, it's putting a voltage through, and it's measuring kind of this very tiny voltage change and then converting that into the weight. And so uh an A to D chip, something that takes that analog signal and turns it to digital, has a certain range, right? 24-bit, whatever it is. And so the minimum amount that you can read is limited by uh A, the signal to noise ratio, like how good is the is the circuit, and B by how many uh digits it breaks the scale into.
+
+[19:10] All right. So uh usually you can't have a large plated scale uh with that measures things that are very accurate because of the wind. Uh the A to D chips have a certain range, which limits the uh uh limits it. And also, even if you have a range, uh the larger the range, sometimes the longer it takes for something to settle out at the right thing. So some scales are slow to settle, they take a couple of seconds to settle, whereas some are very fast.
+
+[19:39] Okay, so that's the background. Now, nowadays on Amazon, you can go by a five kilogram, 5,000 gram scale that does uh a hundredth of a gram, right? 0.01 grams. So it can do drugs and hydrocolloids and also like anything up to uh you know 11, 11? What's five times 2.2?
+
+[20:05] 11, right? Uh 11 uh pounds, right? Um, which is awesome. And you can get them for like now like 125. If you go on eBay and get the factory seconds from the same company shipped direct from China, you can get it for 60 bucks.
+
+[20:21] Now, they sell the same scale as five kilograms all the way down to uh like 600 grams. So almost an order of magnitude difference. They all look the same. What's the difference? Right?
+
+[20:36] On the on the flip side, I bought uh for myself a 30 kilogram scale. So I can measure uh CO2 tanks, I can measure 20 pound CO2 tanks without a problem. I can put my oven on top of it, my my Brevels, my Breville air oven on top of this scale and weigh it with the food inside. Get this to the tenth of a gram. Now, I have a 30 kilo and this same exact scale with the tenth of a gram, goes from 30 kilos, and you can buy one with a with a weight range all the way down to only five kilos, right?
+
+[21:08] So, what's the difference? I said to the to the manufacturer, between the five kilogram and the 30 kilogram. They're like, well, you should always get one that measures a little bit more than you need. I was like, no, specifically, is there a disadvantage to getting the 30 kilogram one as opposed to the five kilogram one? Or am I just getting a giant freaking bonus of being able to measure more?
+
+[21:30] And they wouldn't get back to me. So, and I even I wasn't even that vague. I said, is it is the 30 kilogram slower than the five kilogram one? Is it technically less accurate than the five kilogram one? Is it all these things?
+
+[21:43] And no response. So if anyone could tell me why, if it's the same price for a 30 kilogram and the same accuracy and it's all the same scale, the blank, the outside's all the same. What is the disadvantage of getting the one I got anyway? Do you guys have any ideas? No idea.
+
+[22:00] No. One disadvantage I can think of is that you have to order a much larger calibration weight to calibrate the big scales. Anyway, uh this is in from uh Ruben WTF on Instagram. You think that means that this person's name is Ruben or they know someone like Ruben and they're like, yo, Roman, what the what? You know what I mean?
+
+[22:23] Like that? What do you think it is? I think it's their name is Ruben. But then like they're WTFing themselves? Every time.
+
+[22:33] That's like when I wake up and I and I and I just I wake up, I look in the mirror, I'm like, what the? Like that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[22:42] All right. Um question. I'm making peanut milk, in quotes, for a coffee shop, uh, and it tastes great, but the issue is the shaking before use. I tried using sunflower lecithin uh in liquid at 1%, but it keeps separating. The recipe I'm using is 100 grams of roasted peanuts, 2.5 grams salt, 30 grams sugar, 10 grams of sunflower lecithin, 900 grams of water.
+
+[23:09] Make the peanut butter with all the ingredients minus the water, mix the water, filter through a milk bag. That was also my nickname. What else can I use to keep it as a homogenous mix? Thanks. Love the show.
+
+[23:21] Sorry to hear the bad news about the bar. You and me both, Reuben. So what you want to do is use the same product that I have in Liquid Intelligence for doing cold buttered rum and for orjahs, and that is uh Tickoloid 210S. So in something that is going to sit for a long time, you need not just an emulsifier, so lecithin is an emulsifier, but you also need uh a like a light thickener slash stabilizer, right? And so uh the the Ticoloid 210S, which by the way is available now from Modernist Pantry.
+
+[24:00] In fact, they have over 10 of them in stock. I looked this morning, right? Ticoloid 210S is a mixture of gum Arabic, gum arabic, the emulsifier and xanthan, uh, which is the stabilizer and the thickener, and I would use that at about a percent and a half, okay? Now, um, if you don't want to buy or you can't, and by the way, I would I would try it without the lecithin since I don't know how the lecithin will respond with the ticloid, it'd probably be fine, but I would try it just with the ticoloid first. Uh but the advantage of gum arabic to emulsify these things is one, I know they work, I know it works, and two, it also keeps its emulsifying power over a wide range of temperatures and also a wide range of dilutions.
+
+[24:43] Um so if you can't get the tick and the xanthan is like there and just it just stabilizes the whole thing, not from an emulsification standpoint, but like literally by making a very weak gel so the thing doesn't separate out. And those things shouldn't have to be shaken more than once every day or two. Uh and then if you if you want to increase it uh that that longer, you can add a little bit more. The nice thing is that, and if you don't want to buy 210s, the substitute that I use is uh a nine to one, right? Uh mixture of xanthan and arabic.
+
+[25:21] So that uh one percent of this stuff, one percent of a nine to one would mean that you're using 0.9% of Arabic and 0.1% of uh Xanthan. Now, and at the rate I told you to use it, one and a half percent, you're looking at about 0.15% of xanthan all day, which is thin, it's not gonna get at all gloopy. But the nice thing is that you can keep dumping arabic in, it's not gonna cause too much of a problem. So if you want it a little thicker, it's not gonna hurt you unlike a normal hydrocolloid to go up to 2% if you need it. You know what I mean?
+
+[25:57] Uh, and that's gonna be about 0.2% xanthan, which you don't really want to go above 0.25% xanthan, especially with all that nut stuff, it's gonna get start getting snotty. But uh that's what I would go ahead and do. Is that a okay answer? Yeah. All right.
+
+[26:11] Uh and if you're getting the Arabic, don't get the garbage Arabic, get good Arabic and get good Xanthan. You're better off just getting the one from Ticaloid because it's uh, you know, that you can get on a monitor's pantry. I mean, it's quote unquote expensive, but you're not using that much m that much of it, and it's pre-mixed, and they're very careful about matching like solubilities and the grind sizes and keeping the powders together. So, you know, if you can, and you can go to Moner's Pantry and just get the actual Ticoloid 210 or 310. I originally used 310, but now they they're pushing 210 for it.
+
+[26:46] I would do that. Um, less heartache. It's always less, like when you're running something, it's always this thing. Do I do it myself and potentially F up and then lose more? Or do I spend a little bit more and save myself the heartache?
+
+[26:58] I'd save the heartache in this case. Um this in from uh Seth McPhee on Instagram. Uh I've been dying to find your lemon preserve recipe so I can recreate the Coursera cocktail. Now that I mourn the loss of uh existing conditions, I gotta know. Can you help someone out?
+
+[27:14] P.S. I've made your gin and tonic famous on the Jersey Shore, clarified lime and all. Well, uh that's uh nice. I haven't been to the Jersey Shore in years. Stassi, you ever do the Jersey Shore thing?
+
+[27:23] You remember? You ever go down to Barnegat Light? Is that a compliment that he's making on the Jersey Shore? I love the Jersey Shore. You know, I lived in Jersey for a long time.
+
+[27:31] Look, I never watched the TV show. So my idea of the Jersey Shore isn't the TV show. You know what I'm saying? Did you used to watch that TV show? Nope.
+
+[27:41] Anyway. I I, you know, like there's a lot of fantastic communities on the Jersey Shore. Uh, a friend of mine used to have a house down in uh Ventner, which is just south of Atlantic City, like, like just like past the boardwalk on the beach. In fact, I lost my wedding ring in the surf there one time in uh in the early 2000s. Oh my gosh.
+
+[28:02] Whenever Dave loses his wedding ring, he is convinced that women are checking him out. I've never said that in my life. Yes, you. I have never once said that. I have never once said that.
+
+[28:15] How could I make that up? I remember it like that. You said that. I was like, I don't like to go around without my wedding ring. It doesn't equal that I think that people are checking me out.
+
+[28:25] I have never thought that anyone has ever checked me out. First of all, we were out of we were doing an employee. First of all, not in town. First of all, I believe the first of all, I believe the opposite of what you were saying. I believe that nothing gets you checked out more than putting a wedding ring on.
+
+[28:43] Okay. Because it's safe. People can look at you if you're if you're if they know that that you have a wedding ring on, or they're they're weirdos. I believe the exact opposite of what you're saying. Anyway, I have lost my wedding ring an inordinate number of times without ever taking it off my hand.
+
+[28:59] I have lost the wedding ring. That was my confusion. So how do you do this? So I've never removed, I shower with it. I I, you know, I've never removed my wedding ring.
+
+[29:11] The first wedding ring I lost was I had just gone on, as we spoke a couple of episodes ago, on the blunch diet, and I went from my getting married weight, which was, you know, like 190 or something, down to 155 pounds. I was like super thin, and so my hands got smaller. I went into the ocean and it just it just washed off my hands. It like the water was cold. This was in Ventner, and it just it came off my hands.
+
+[29:42] I came out of the ocean with no wedding ring. The second time I lost my wedding ring, uh, I was doing a sculpture and it got uh crimped. It got crimped. My wedding ring was gold at the time, and it got crimped around my finger. And so I had to go get it cut off at the hospital.
+
+[30:02] And then uh, which is why I no longer wear gold. I switched to stainless steel, right? Uh, because uh Wiley Dufrain, my brother-in-law, he was like, You gotta you gotta go with the stainless steel because it's chef's metal. It's the chef's love of stainless steel, so I have a stainless steel ring. So I switched to stainless steel.
+
+[30:20] That one, I don't know what I was washing dishes. There's two, there's two things. I was washing a lot of dishes down in New Orleans at Tails of the Cocktail, and that same day I had to like wash my hands in a trough and milk a cow for a William Grant party. We were all milking a cow. I don't know why we were milking a cow.
+
+[30:36] Uh I think they were making ramoses or something with right out of whatever. And I looked up at my hand, wedding ring gone. And so I'm on my fourth one. I hope this one stays on. But anyway.
+
+[30:49] Yeah, I've like it's unbelievable how many times I've lost this thing, considering I don't take it off. This episode is brought to you by Vertera. Impressively versatile, stylishly sustainable, environmentally disposable dinner wear from Fallen Leaves. Vertera is a mission-driven company focused on making environmentally responsible single-use products. Founded in 2006 on the belief that every culinary creation deserves a beautiful, sustainably crafted foundation.
+
+[31:19] Verterra reclaims earthly discards like fallen leaves and tree scraps to design elegant, disposable dinnerware that elevates the look of food presentation. In short, a beautiful disposable plate that can go with your food to a composting facility. The team from Verterra recently made a huge pivot with their factories and started producing masks, gloves, sanitizer, and other PPE that food businesses need to safely reopen. Learn more at Vertera.com. That's V-E-R-T-E-R-R-A.com.
+
+[31:56] We have an answer for your scale thing in the chat. Alright, uh, do that and then I'll talk about the preserved lemons. Okay, yeah, yeah. Uh Vengroth just wrote in. The scale thing could be binning.
+
+[32:08] This is common with electronic components like CPUs. Uh the idea is you build a bunch of something and test them. Some perform better than others, and you give them a better rating and sell them for a higher price, but you can still sell the lower performing ones for a lower price. I don't know enough about load cell performance characteristics to be sure, but I bet some are active enough percentage-wise, or sorry, accurate enough percentage-wise to do 10 kilograms by 0.1 gram, while others have a higher percentage error and thus can only do five by 0.1 or even one by 0.1. It's better to bin them appropriately and sell them for a lower price than toss them in the trash.
+
+[32:45] Yeah, but I believe that. Like, but the strange thing about it, and that's possibly true, the strange thing about it is they're all roughly the same price, which means that they're just not following their own logic. They should take the 30-gram one, the 30-kilogram scale or the 20-kilogram scale, and they should charge me like four times as much. You know what I mean? Like if it can do four times what the other one can, they should charge me more, and then only the people who need to measure that much would spend the extra money, right?
+
+[33:12] Um, but anyway, I believe that that's true when they're making them. It's just so weird that they don't, in fact, charge more, right? There's a slight, put it in this way, on eBay. So what's what you're doing on eBay is you're you're you're buying the last rev instead of the current rev of a scale, you're buying the last rev of the scale directly from importers in China. Same exact scale, same factory, right?
+
+[33:35] And literally, like the one that does 10 kilograms is like 58 bucks, and the one that does 30 kilograms is like 62 bucks, right? So it's like, hello, you know, it's like, why would I what if there's no price penalty, why would I ever go with the with the lower one? Anyway, um, it is true, as I said, the calibration weights for a 30 kilogram scale are a lot more money. Uh but whatever. Uh wait, so we're talking about the preserved lemon.
+
+[34:04] So with preserved lemon, the trick with preserved lemon is first find a the preserved lemon that you like. The one that we used both at Booker Index and at existing conditions was the quote unquote Moroccan preserved lemon that is made by Calustians in-house, right? So if my memory serves, it's got a little bit of a couple of saffron megillas in it, but it's mainly just preserved lemons with salt and not a lot of other like extra spices and whatnot. None, in fact. I think I think they had a couple of sprigs of saffron in it, but I can't remember.
+
+[34:34] Uh so but it's just that. And then with the liquid and the entire lemon, the peel, the white, the pulp, everything, blend the entire thing into a chunky paste, right? Uh then, and the trick here is you don't want to fully clarify, you're not going for a full clarification. So uh you do just SPL, right? I don't think we used D1 and D2 on it.
+
+[34:59] But if you do, only do one round of it. Don't do two rounds of it. Because you're not trying to get the thing completely clear. You're just trying to spin out like a lot of the chunky solid stuff so that it's thin enough to pour, but you want it to remain cloudy, otherwise your drink won't have the right body. And then just put it in the centrifuge and you're good to go.
+
+[35:14] And that's the that's what we used. And uh, I don't have the spec off of off the top of my head, but it's a split-based, which I should because it's it was my favorite drink to order and one of my better specs I've ever done. But it's tequila, uh, then uh simple, dry on the simple side. I think it's like two, I think it's two and then like half of simple, and then it's a split base on the citrus. So it's uh half preserved lemon, half uh lime juice, and then uh um uh spiciness.
+
+[35:52] So the spiciness of your choice. The original was with hellfire bitters. You know, I think it was 10 drops of hellfire bitters, shake. Oh, it wasn't a full two ounces though. Huh.
+
+[36:00] I'll look it up, I'll look it up and give you the full spec. You might already have it. Because I forgot we made it smaller because it was so salty, and then we served it with the with the pony of uh of Miller, the champagne of beers. Um I'll look it up, but not right now. Uh okay.
+
+[36:18] Um Jeremy Wright saying, hey Dave, love the show, inspiring me to try new stuff, infusing vodka with juniper berries, etc., uh, which is aka gin if you distill it. Uh dehydrated lime slices is the question. The first time I dehydrated lime slices, uh, they turned out purple and got a nasty medicine smell. And the second time they seemed to stay clear and smell good. I remember seeing the purple smelly type in a bar before the apocalypse hit.
+
+[36:46] Any idea why the purple stink happens and how to stop it? Thanks. All right, uh, first of all, Jeremy, instead of calling it a nasty medicine smell, you should call it like an awesome complicated fermented note. And then if you call it that, well, that's a huge win. Then everybody wants it, right?
+
+[37:06] If you call it a nasty medicine smell, right on your menu, you're like, or if like you're serving someone, you're like, this has a nasty medicine smell, people are gonna be like, yeah, it does. If you're like tell them it's awesome and complicated and fermented, they'll be like, this is awesome and complicated and fermented. Just a little trick for you. Uh secondly, I don't know exactly what's happening, but what I'm guessing is happening is that when you're dehydrating it, your uh rate of dehydration is not fast enough. And you are actually converting it into what is known, and you can go look this up, uh, as uh black limes or lumi.
+
+[37:42] So if you look these up, uh they're dehydrated uh citrus lime, and they often go uh different degrees of purplish brown and black. And they're used as a spice when you pine the pound them and grind them up uh in many cuisines, especially in um the Middle East uh and North of Africa. And so you should that is what that's typically used for. So I'm guessing if you increase your, not necessarily the um heat, you don't want to cook it, although that's probably not gonna make it turn. Uh I I I would say just increase the rate at which you're dehydrating, and that's gonna help.
+
+[38:18] But check out uses for black limes and lumi and see whether that's that's what's going on. If you want to look up uh black limes in general, I recommend the article Mechanical Processing and Temperature Effect on Lime Shrinkage by A Fadavi, wherein they describe exactly how to prepare your own uh black limes. Uh okay, uh, was that a okay? Okay answer? All right.
+
+[38:43] Uh Steve Yoon, uh uh, as we know him, the fish poet. Hey, Stas, can you pull up somehow? Or John, can you pull up the fish poem? Because I need to hear it again. I'm feeling did you did you guys see today uh a bunch of studies came out about um depression rates uh due to COVID?
+
+[39:01] I mean it's just I mean I we knew it can't be bad. That can't be. You you read it? Nobody's depressed during COVID. No, no, but did you read like like between 18 and 24, this study, and I this is unbelievable, but like one in four people between 18 and 24 have had serious suicidal ideation.
+
+[39:20] I mean, like much I knew it was gonna be bad, but I kind of didn't think it was gonna be that bad. So I think also, John, towards the end, I know especially in our industry, a lot of us were hit with our jobs, and especially if we're in hospitality, uh not being able to provide that hospitality or have that human contact at home, uh, it really, really, really difficult. So at the end, I think we should put out the um the uh suicide prevention hotline number again. And just remember that especially if you're young, this is what I've uh so I was thinking about this. The younger you are, right, the bigger a chunk of your life this is, and the less you can see your way out of it, right?
+
+[40:06] At 49, this is terrible, right? This is awful. From a social standpoint, this is the worst thing, you know, ever, right? But at 49, it's still a lot shorter than it is for my son, who's 18, right? Where this is a huge kind of chunk of their life.
+
+[40:24] So it's A, if you're young, remember that, you know, just remember that this is finite. This what's happening here is finite. You know what I mean? And if you're older like me, just remember that people who are younger won't necessarily see it this way. And so we'll put out that and just watch out.
+
+[40:45] Even though you can't physically be with each other right now, you should be watching out uh for each other. I couldn't believe those stats when they came together. Well, real quick, I'm just gonna mention the number now and something else like that. People don't have to wait until the end of the episode. If you are feeling that way, call 1800-273-8255-800-273-8255.
+
+[41:02] That's the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And if you are in the industry and just looking for resources to help you out with this kind of stuff, there's a great Facebook group called Chef Switch Issues that's run by Kat Kinsman. And if you look up Kat Kinsman, she also has another tremendous amount of resources out there. So yeah, you're definitely not alone, and there is help. Yeah.
+
+[41:29] There are people that want to help you. You can be, you can get help. Please do. And please, those of you that you know aren't feeling this way, please look out for people because it's a lot worse now than it was six months ago. A lot worse.
+
+[41:48] Um, now do you have the fish poem to make me feel a little bit better? No. Oh, are you feeling down, babe? Yes. Ready?
+
+[41:56] It is the hell's that about. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish. I got to try some of this, an Amberjack kanpachi. Oh my god, so good. So good.
+
+[42:11] One of the best poems I think I've ever read, and I'm a poetry major from Stanford. Yeah. Can you give it to me one more time? I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish. I got to try some of this, an Amberjack kanpache.
+
+[42:27] Oh my god. So good. I need I need permission to put that in the next book. Or on a shirt. Or on a shirt.
+
+[42:41] Or like, but like, you know how like, like, okay, let's be honest with each other. You know how people put the the little poem at the front of the chapters in books that they write? Yes. How often do you understand why that poem was chosen? Or understand anything about it?
+
+[42:56] Well, I read nonfiction, and so usually it's tied in. Also, like a lot of biographies put little poems, and it's usually tied in. I know, but like nine, like a lot of times, I don't most of the time you understand exactly what they're doing at with the poem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me, not so much.
+
+[43:12] Me, and maybe I'm at like 60%. Like 40% of the time, I'm like, hmm, that the meaning of the poem is ambiguous to me, and then I have to read the chapter to figure out what the author was thinking about that poem. Just confuses the hell out of me. But this poem, I believe everyone understands the meaning. Amberjack.
+
+[43:34] Genius. Genius work. Uh so uh Steve's question was uh every year I throw a Thanksgiving for friends who can't be with family, uh, and I'd have 20 or 30 people over. This year uh I'm trying to brainstorm what's possible for do uh for doing a socially distanced Thanksgiving. Wait, Dave, you know what my answer to this was?
+
+[43:53] I just see underneath what my answer to is this email I got from him. That's the with the poem, right? I just said, hey Steve, what the F is this? Well, wait, that's what you said when the when the original poem came in. Yes.
+
+[44:09] But then once you realized it was poetry and not a question, then you were like, sorry. Yeah. Sorry, one more time, I gotta hear it. It's just making me feel good. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish.
+
+[44:25] I got to try some of this in Amberjack Kampachi. It's like what's amazing about it is that like I don't usually like free verse. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a free verse kind of a guy. Yeah.
+
+[44:40] But like, like, and it doesn't, I don't think. I mean, I'm you're the poetry person, you tell me. It doesn't have like a meter, right? No, no, it doesn't. But like, but somehow the flow of it is perfect anyway, even even without a meter or uh a rhyme structure, right?
+
+[44:57] Right, yeah. Yeah, the for the form of it is such that I assumed it was meeting some sort of standard. Structure didn't know about. Yeah. Well, I think Steve's hit on some as yet unknown metrical structure for the first one.
+
+[45:14] Yeah, for poetry. And I think this needs to be analyzed for its meter, and then he should do uh he should do a tour. Yeah, yeah. But like you wouldn't you couldn't change any of it and have it work. No, you know what I mean?
+
+[45:30] No. And also, like it's like amber Jack Kampache. And then it's like parentheses, parentheses, kompache. It's like and he said like his response to my what the F was sorry I press press send too soon. But at the at the end of that poem, it says Steve U in Los Angeles, California.
+
+[45:53] So I don't believe he pressed send too soon because it even looks like a poem is written, how a poem is written, you know. Yeah. Well I'm gonna have to trust you, uh Nastasia to format it correctly for the poetry universe, and then we'll try try to get a new thing. No, I think it's already formatted. I will send it to you, Matt.
+
+[46:12] Maybe you can like make it the image of our show today. Yeah, and then you know, we'll get it on t-shirts and uh, you know, whatever. Like, you know, it's obviously it's copyright Steve Yoon, but whatever. We'll we'll work on it. We'll get the permissions, we'll do it, we'll do whatever we need.
+
+[46:26] Uh that sounds great. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, back to his question. Uh so he's he's gonna try to do a socially distanced Thanksgiving for 20 to 30 people. And by the way, we're gonna have to start talking about this uh Thanksgiving uh stuff early for for questions because this is gonna come up a a lot and uh you know the question he's uh he's about to have and uh we should have some good answers for people.
+
+[46:50] I don't even know uh are you're gonna be in California for it, so you're gonna try to actually see your parents, right Nastasia? Yes, for an un unknown amount of time. Yeah, I am uh I'm not gonna be able to see my parents at all. Like even though they're only like an hour from here. They they won't get anywhere near they won't get anywhere near anyone.
+
+[47:08] You know what I mean? Uh so yeah, I don't know what's gonna happen. What are you what are you guys doing? Do you know yet? I'm trying to do what Nastasia's doing.
+
+[47:16] I'm gonna try and see my parents for an unspecified unspecified amount of time, like around Thanksgiving through Christmas, maybe, but that's a long time to be with my family for that one stretch at time. I rented a house, John, so I'm not speaking. I need to figure out how to like quarantine myself or get tested in an appropriate amount of time or something like that, because I definitely don't want to risk getting my parents sick. Yeah, yeah. Um Steve is saying he's gonna work uh on pre-packaging dinners, dropping them off, or having friends pick them up off the porch, and then having dinner together over Zoom.
+
+[47:53] Uh I might give each friend two containers, one for hot foods uh to microwave and one for cold foods. Now you know what the best thing, Nastasi to separate the hot container and the cold container is your book. Copy of Liquid Intelligence. So if you don't already own Liquid Intelligence, now is a good time to order it before Thanksgiving to separate your hot food from your cold food. And that is all it's ever been to uh Nastasia.
+
+[48:17] Although, you know, I can't even I could be you know what? I hate to do this because it's gonna hurt my sales, but it would be this like cheaper maybe or about the same price to just go get a piece of styrofoam from the Home Depot, like you know, with a blue board and cut it to the same size as Liquid Intelligence and then put it in between, and it'll be a lot lighter. But I think it's better when it's your book, and people are like, is that Dave's book? And I'm like, what? I don't know.
+
+[48:48] Uh so back to the uh the hot food, cold food. I assume this means crispy turkey skin is not happening. Or is it? Uh are all crispy foods not happening? Does this mean roasted Brussels sprouts are out of the question as well?
+
+[49:03] Uh, do you have any ideas on what Thanksgiving foods would store, transport, and reheat with decent results? Uh, if I got foil food containers, could I reasonably expect everyone to reheat them in the oven? Would that make crispy foods possible? Well, I'm glad, Steve, that you asked this question because for the Harvard public lecture and for the miracle of moisture management, I was indeed just running experiments on what aluminum pans do in the oven. And the the here's what might surprise you.
+
+[49:33] First of all, your main problem is gonna be you don't know what, obviously, they can't put the aluminum pan guaranteed into the microwave. It's what's not true is that metal can't go in a microwave. That's a lie. The problem is that one, the metal will shield the uh the food that's inside of it, so it just won't get that hot. Only the micro microwaves can only come in from the top.
+
+[49:57] And two, uh, it's very likely that if there's any points or creases or places where two pieces of metal come close to each other, that they will arc like a demon. And when they arc, it gets real nasty. The like the smoke, the food, all kinds of issues. Uh you know, not of cooking related, all kinds of like electronic issues. And this is why people tell you not to put uh foil or you know, things into the microwave.
+
+[50:23] But the the that foil and metal is completely incompatible with a microwave is incorrect because think about it this way the outside of your microwave is made of what? Metal, right? In fact, the whole thing is shielded in metal. But I digress. Uh one of your main problems is going to be you don't know what kind of ovens uh people have.
+
+[50:42] And so people are gonna be having wildly different um experiences. But about the thing about aluminum is this. I just ran an experiment uh this week where I took a, and I did this because of uh a lot of playing around, I was doing with my infrared thermal camera, which I'm using to test cerezals with, and I was looking at aluminum pans. And when you look at an aluminum pan or a stainless steel pan with an infrared camera, what you'll see is your own reflection. Because in the infrared, which is where a lot of the radiant heat uh is, that's where most of the energy and radiant heat is.
+
+[51:19] Um, in the in the infrared, uh, these pans are almost perfect mirrors. They reflect everything. And what that means, and you all know this from cooking, is that if you put uh, let's say you're making pizza or some sort of roll or something, and you put them on an aluminum sheet tray, you don't get a lot of coloring on the bottom of your product. It doesn't, it doesn't burn, it stays blonde. So for something like a cookie, maybe that you want to stay blonde, this is an advantage.
+
+[51:47] You're shunting away all the radiant heat with your aluminum pan. If you want to make something uh crispy, like a panned pizza, like a Detroit or Chicago pan pizza, everyone says go black. And in fact, I I spray painted, don't use spray paint because even the Hyat spray paint doesn't really work in the oven, it gets all gummy and it's not food grade, don't do it. Please don't do it. Uh but if you use if you spray paint the exact same aluminum pan black on both sides, it you get great results.
+
+[52:19] It crisps up great because that aluminum pan, which is very thin, conducts heat very well from the oven, and also it's collecting all of that radiant heat and dumping it into your food. Now here's the interesting part. I was like, okay, let me test this. I did another aluminum pan, spray painted black just on the inside, on the part that's touching the food. And then I did another pan spray painted black just on the bottom side, the part that's facing the oven.
+
+[52:44] And the one that's sprayed just on the bottom performs almost identically to the one that's black on both sides. So really all you need is the bottom of the pan to be black in order for it to get the results that you want of radiant heat all around. Problem is you can't spray paint the bottom of these cheap aluminum foil pans black, but what you can do, and I haven't run the test yet, is you can buy fairly cheaply at BH Photo or Adorama or any photo supply uh shop near you, something called Roscoe, that's like R-O-S-C-O, Roscoe Cinefoil. And cinefoil is a matte black aluminum foil that that it's a lot more expensive than aluminum foil. I think a 10-foot by a 10-foot by one foot roll is I think like 10 bucks, right?
+
+[53:40] And that stuff I know hangs uh uh hangs on to like temperature, uh sorry, uh handles the oven well. I wouldn't say it's food grade, so I wouldn't put it in direct contact with the food, but I just had mine, uh I baked a potato in uh cinefoil for uh over an hour, and it didn't leak any color, it was fine, nothing got transferred. So it's not good for food contact, but it's definitely good in the oven, because it's meant to be contacted for lights. And I would say that uh wrapping cinefoil around the bottom of it before you deliver it would allow them to put it in the oven and have the thing crisp up. So that's what I would do.
+
+[54:15] Also, here's another thing. I was running a test, see what you think. I'm gonna test, I'm gonna test the cooking issues crew that we have live here. How many of you think you should wrap a potato in aluminum foil before you cook it? Yes.
+
+[54:29] It depends on the results of the food. Okay. Well, why what does that mean, John? I don't know, like if I'm making potato rolls or something like that, I'm probably, or gnocchi, I'm just gonna bake it on a bed of salt and let as much moisture. Even if I'm just in a regular baked potato, I'd probably just pop it in there.
+
+[54:47] If I'm doing a Novak potato, then it's yeah, wrapped in foil. Well then it's room temperature, then you don't cook it at all. I never do baked potatoes, but if I was going to, I would have just, I would have wrapped it. Okay. Okay, okay.
+
+[55:01] So the baked potato council uh tells you not to wrap the thing before you cook it, but they do tell you to wrap it afterwards. And I ran a bunch of experiments. Here's what's happening. If you wrap a potato, but the the explanations they give are not very good. If you wrap a potato in aluminum foil, right, you might think, well, I'm capturing the steam inside of the of the aluminum foil, and so I'm actually gonna cook it faster, right?
+
+[55:29] Because uh, you know, it's not having evaporative cooling, it's gonna cook faster. Uh, and yes, like the ri like the jacket may not get as crispy, but it also won't dehydrate as much and it'll cook faster. Wrong. Uh what happens is is that it cooks a lot slower than the one that's just rubbed with oil and poked with a fork, rubbed with oil and salt, poked with a fork and put it in the oven. A lot slower.
+
+[55:54] Uh if you wrap that same potato in black cinefoil and cook it, that one cooks at the same rate as the one that is cooked with no coating at all. And the difference is that the one that's wrapped in aluminum foil is reflecting away all of the radiant energy from your oven. This is also the reason why, in my I'm guessing, that if you put a lot of baked potatoes in your oven, they take so much longer to cook. And I think it's because they're uh occluding themselves from the radiation from the from the radiant energy from the oven, and not, as you might have assumed, because somehow your oven can't handle it in the way that a microwave can't handle it. And also why, when you're cooking a potato, you want the maximum amount of uh radiant heat hitting it, so you don't want to put an aluminum pan underneath.
+
+[56:43] And in fact, uh you can buy now uh pan liners uh and and and sorry, oven liners that go on the bottom rack of your pan to catch things that are black. And if you do have a pan that's gonna go underneath something like a baked potato, like on the rack underneath, and then cook it on the rack above, make sure that pan is black. Um this one needs to be black on both sides because you want it to absorb from the bottom and then radiate out again. Make any sense? Make sense?
+
+[57:10] Yes. Little preview from the miracle of moisture management. Um John Dunn wrote in. Uh sorry to hear about the bar. I visited last summer, I was hoping to make another trip.
+
+[57:22] As soon as traveling isn't completely terrifying. I tracked down an online version of Pie March is on off the Half I Trust.org. Uh Pi March is on. I love that book. John loves that book.
+
+[57:32] Nastasia's sick of hearing about that book. And that's that's pretty much that's the whole story, right, John? Yeah, exactly. But you think it's a great book, too, right? Yeah, I've been enjoying the copy that I ordered.
+
+[57:41] Not the original, but like a repro from that was shipped from India. Yeah. But it's it's okay quality. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[57:48] Wish the paper was a little better quality, but whatever. I pay. Uh only a fool, in terms of what pie you're gonna start with, only a fool wouldn't start with, and I quote, the king of all pies, and quote, the most sensational pie that has ever been introduced, the black bottom pie, which sounds like a like a it sounds like a uh uh like the band. What was the name of the band from O Brother Where Art Thou that George Clooney was fake in? Anyone remember?
+
+[58:15] Never no, whatever. Uh to uh hopefully and unlikely bypass the hammer. I'm going to claim that I have only one question. And it was uh you don't feel good about that, right, Styles? People trying to bypass you.
+
+[58:29] Whatever. Uh what is meant by best quality chocolate? Is that unsweetened cocoa, baking, dark milk? And overall, there doesn't seem to be that much chocolate in the pie, only two ounces of chocolate for six pies. Would you increase this to get a better chocolate flavor?
+
+[58:43] Um, and then uh there's something about very specific instructions, but I'm not gonna get into that because I didn't I didn't look at that. And no, I have not made that pie yet. Uh my wife wants me to make that pie. That's the next one uh on the list back when I get into pie making modes. But I will uh I will say this about chocolate, and I am never above quoting uh my man Monroe Boston Strauss.
+
+[59:07] Chocolate cream pie. The proper amount of chocolate is a point which I cannot definitely determine for you, due to the many brands and grades of chocolate and cocoa being used in pie work. So the amount suggested may be changed to suit your individual requirements as to flavor and color without any detriment to the finished pie. If a dark cocoa is used, less than the amount indicated will be necessary. Half cocoa and half chocolate can be used if you wish, or these can be blended in any other proportion.
+
+[59:36] The important thing to remember in connection with cocoa or chocolate is that it must be added to the milk and cooked in the mix and should never be added after it is removed from the fire. Although the latter procedure is followed by many uninformed bakers. So I did look at the recipe, and it is quite a small amount of chocolate. And normally in the like in this internet world of blah blah blah, I would say, yeah, the guy probably did a misprint or he's wrong. But this guy is so on point with his recipes that I would say it's worth going ahead and trying the recipe as he wrote it.
+
+[1:00:10] I would use a dark if he's subbing in cocoa, I would say he's going for basically bakers. There's enough sugar in there, so I would use a good quality unsweetened is what I would go with because I think that's probably what he was using, and that's gonna get the maximum chocolate flavor. So I would try using something unsweetened, or if you want to use something that's like 72, uh just do a back calculation on assuming that you know that the part that's not 72, i.e. 28% of it is sugar, and then remove that amount of sugar and sub and up the amount of chocolate to get the cocoa solids and butter where the recipe says, and I would try doing it uh that way and trust him once, and then as he says, you know, to paraphrase him, if you like more chocolate, add more chocolate. I'm not gonna stop you, right?
+
+[1:01:02] Anyone? Anyone? From Stella Brown uh via email, uh hey Nastasia Dave, uh, and etc. Ooh! John and Matt are etc.
+
+[1:01:15] I mean, I've been crediting us as the rest ever since you threw that out there a while ago. Well, that's just wait, which one of you has a bird? Um stop me. Sorry, I'll kill it. I love the bird, but you have it in your house?
+
+[1:01:28] There's a bird in the Hamptons house? What kind of bird is it? Is it a budgie? I don't know what it is. Is it dead now?
+
+[1:01:38] Dead now. Is it have like a nice color or is it like a or is it is it a bird in a cage in the house? No, it's not. Oh, it's just an outside bird? Yes.
+
+[1:01:48] Oh mute. Oh why? I don't mind the bird. I'm sure it doesn't sound good to Matt. No, yeah.
+
+[1:01:55] Ambiance is really nice in here right now. Also we gotta go pretty soon. We do have two. Someone, yeah, I got this one last question. Someone last night on the Zoom call, like was in some sort of like like uh forest paradise, and so like it's all there are crickets going.
+
+[1:02:09] And I was like to Jenna's like, are there freaking crickets here in the lower east side? We never hear crickets, and she's like, nah, it's coming over the zoom. I'm like, oh, okay. Uh so it's nice, you know, when you're in the city to hear a little bit of nature, even if it's, you know. I thought Nastasio was touring a cavern of crickets earlier.
+
+[1:02:28] Really? There are crickets a lot here. I recently tried the blender muddled geranium cocktail, Dave talked about the other week with my giant potted rose geranium, and it was revelatory. Well, thank you. Uh I had been wondering if you could use the leaves in a cocktail, so I was excited to try it out.
+
+[1:02:45] And now I'm addicted to blender muddling. It also works great with marigold leaves, and I want to try it with B balm, uh bee balm, uh aka uh monarda. I've never heard of bee bomb, but I've never heard of Monarchy. You ever heard that one, Stas? No.
+
+[1:02:59] Nope. Uh I'm collecting in southwest Wisconsin in the driftless region. Where's the driftless reason? Do you know about this? Any of you guys Wisconsin specialists?
+
+[1:03:09] No. No. Uh I'd like to use it in a cocktail for an event in October, and I'm wondering what the best way to preserve it is. Can I muddle it now and keep the liquor? I'm using gin for a month or so, or should I freeze the leaves and make it right before service?
+
+[1:03:23] I haven't frozen herbs before, so any pointers on that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks for the advice, Stella Brown. All right, do not make the liquor ahead of time. And like you, I have never tried freezing the stuff beforehand for the simple reason that we were working in a bar service, and there's no way that I could make sure that the leaves never thawed before they made it to before they made it into the drink. And if the herbs thaw at all before they make it into your drink, they're gonna get all nasty.
+
+[1:03:56] So what I would do is uh I would try freezing them and just make sure that you can keep the stuff frozen prior to service. So if you're doing them at an event, right, like I would freeze them and then keep them in zippies with uh like a little bit of dry ice in a container next to where you are so that they stay crispy frozen. But do yourself a favor and run a test beforehand. So, like um, you know, pick some pick some herbs uh and do the fastest freeze that you can do. The easiest would be, you know, a single, like try seeing whether a single layer on a sheet pan in your uh free in your freezer freezes them fast enough.
+
+[1:04:39] If that works, great. After they're frozen, quickly throw them into a zippy, put them back in the freezer and let them stay that way. Pull them out in a week, and if they're still good in a week, they'll be good in a month or two months. You won't be a problem, right? Um, as long as your freezer doesn't go down.
+
+[1:04:55] Um if that doesn't work, then you can try a more aggressive kind of freezing with like uh salt ice baths and stuff like that, or you know, if you were lucky enough, like a little bit of LN or dry ice to freeze it down uh at the beginning just to get a faster freeze rate. But I'm guessing that that will work, especially I don't know with those herbs how much uh polyphenol oxidase activity they have. So I don't know how brown they're gonna go. Uh so you might be lucky, like certain herbs can be uh frozen and then use relatively quickly with almost no deterioration. I'm looking at you possibly.
+
+[1:05:31] But the problem with parsley is that uh in a blender muddle drink, it tends to settle very quickly. So like if you if you blender muddle or nitrumdal parsley and you let the drink sit around for like 15 minutes, you'll get like a clearish green, and then the parsley will have settled to the bottom, which is not what you want. I don't know why some herbs do this and some herbs don't, but it's an interesting phenomenon. But I would run a test, and please, if you do run a test, please uh give us the results so that we can use uh your work to help out uh other people. Uh how's that?
+
+[1:06:02] We got all the questions. We actually did all the questions. Wow. What? So shows canceled forever?
+
+[1:06:10] Well, because we made it through all the questions, yeah. That's it, it's over. We're done. Cooking issues is over. It's a good thing.
+
+[1:06:15] That's like that's why I tell the kids. I tell the kids, I'm like, you know, if you ever wanted to murder me, if you ever want me to just fall over dead and your mom too, all you need to do is do what we ask you without talking back. And then that would be it. You know what I mean? Like if we just said, go walk the dogs, and they did it without saying later or blah or complaining, I will fall over dead.
+
+[1:06:38] You know what I mean? So it's like the same thing with the cooking issues. If I ever actually get through all the questions, I you know, I have few enough tangents that I make it through all the questions, the show's over. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:06:48] All right. Well, it was a good run. It's a good run. I hope you guys enjoyed it while it lasted. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:06:58] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org.
+
+[1:07:12] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:07:33] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by a dozen cousins. Soulfully seasoned, ready to eat beans. Learn more at AdozenCusins.com. This week on Meet and 3, it's all about screens. We're diving into the world of TV, computers, and even VR to figure out how food consumption is shifted by digital lens.
+
+[0:20] Every course talks about a different topic within the Asian American identity through a very personal lens. And the three courses that are paired with VR. In it, you're seeing a brushstroke by brushstroke recreation of the dish that you're about to eat. Most of us in the world live in urban areas. And so how much is the city already accidentally providing its resident?
+
+[0:42] And how much more could it provide if um we just made a priority? Tune into Meet and 3, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live! What you didn't get it? What's the matter?
+
+[1:07] What's the matter? I I grabbed the I grabbed the wrong knob. But it doesn't matter. Did we record it? Are we good?
+
+[1:14] That's the intro, baby. I'll do it again. Coming down that's it, man. We're coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm coming from the lower east side in New York City.
+
+[1:24] We have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez gonna dial back in in a minute. She got caught in her car. She's about to be back inside. We got uh we got our man John, your customer service representative extraordinaire, uh, live from Murray Hills. You're Murray Hill right now.
+
+[1:39] Yep, correct. Alright. Uh got uh Matt in his Rhode Island booth. How are you doing? I mean, I couldn't make it five seconds into the show without screwing up, so we're doing great.
+
+[1:48] Yeah, all right. Well, you know. Uh you remember that story I told you a long time ago about how uh I got real mad at Apple because their um their website wasn't working for like reserving uh a product that was coming out, this was years ago, and we had just had our huge snafu with our uh with our Kickstarter launch on the Sears All, and I was like, you know what? Mistakes happen. I think the same thing here.
+
+[2:09] Mistakes happen. You know what I mean? Like the one time. You're like, that's all right. Oh, it's all right.
+
+[2:15] It's it's like every once in a while you need to realize that I think everyone needs to realize that we all make mistakes, and so like while we hold ourselves to high standards, I hope, like you can't get too bent over every little thing, especially if you can't fix it. Better to get bent over the stuff you can fix than the stuff that's already happened. No use getting bent over spilled milk or spilled blood, for that matter. You know what I mean? Uh okay, and special guest, friend of the show, and also our friend in real life, Ariel Johnson, how you doing?
+
+[2:45] Good, thanks. How are you? Yeah, and where are you doing well? Where are you uh where are you coming in from here? Uh uh Green Point, Brooklyn.
+
+[2:51] Green Point, is that where you live in Greenpoint? I do live here, yeah. Are you one of those people now? Listen, so for those of you that don't hang out in New York, here's what happened. So Green Point is an area that's serviced only by the G train.
+
+[3:05] And back when, you know, I was young in the in the 90s and you know, 80s, 90s, uh, like you could basically say to yourself, if I have to take the G train, I've made a terrible life mistake. I've made a horrible life mistake if the G train. That's a terrible thing to say to her, Gabe. No, no, no, no. This is in the I's nine.
+
+[3:29] When I first moved to New York, this isn't like 2005. Like the G train or my perception of it having ridden it was that it was like very bad. Um, but but now I mean, if you're if you're willing to deal with the fact that it only comes every 10 minutes, um, it's actually I think the most reliable train in the system now. But it's also where it's because it's it's it's getting computerized, right? Didn't that one get computerized?
+
+[3:56] It's also only got like two cars on it or something like that. It's got four cars, yeah. It's a little short train. But like it's it's for the past I yeah, for the past eight years, it's been known where the hot hipsters go to meet other hot hipsters too, right? I mean, it's a good the people on it are either the old people who live in that neighborhood, which you know, are like the people that I'm used to, and then there's like you know, the the like the younger set, you know.
+
+[4:16] Well, I d I definitely live and hang out more in the uh older, not hot folks part than the hot hipster part. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, I'm over I'm over by the warehouses. In n well, in 1997, I had a job working in a metal fabrication factory in Greenpoint. The crazy thing about Greenpoint.
+
+[4:39] Yeah, I mean there's two of those on my block. The name the name of it was SFW Metals, which was literally stood for so effing what metals. That was what it was. Excellent. And we were making like uh I was making the project I remember is I made a stainless steel medicine cabinet for an incredibly rich upper east side person, and just sitting there sanding all day, sanding metal dust into my face.
+
+[5:02] Anyways, uh so at the time I lived right by Columbia, and so for those of you that don't understand how New York City works. That's a long commute. That's a long commute, even though it's like literally like as the crow flies, five miles, it's like an hour and it was like an hour and a half, especially back in the 90s. And man, I was like, man, Greenpoint, what the hell? I mean, like, unless you were old school, like like Polish, you wanted that old school like feeling.
+
+[5:25] That for that it was great. But also, you know, much like Bushwick, where we used to record this thing, it would be like, here's a family. Oh, look, right next door, here's someone dumping oil and car paint into the ground. You're like, what? You're like, I was like, I was like, the amount of like the entire area used to be like a super fun site because you'd have hardcore industrial people, old school style, like not like new green industry.
+
+[5:49] Like I mean like literally like dumping oil into the earth. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh so that's my that's my memory.
+
+[5:56] But now it's like so fancy, like Green Point's so fancy that most of the people that I know who live in Greenpoint, like they have no reason to leave it. It's become its own mini Brooklyn. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, it is literally Brooklyn, but uh well, kind of, right? I mean, it's on the border.
+
+[6:13] And I also literally don't leave it, uh, usually now. But I mean, even pre even pre- No, no, totally, totally. Um, you can get your tattoos, you can get your artisanal breads, you can get a good kielbasa. What else do you need, really? Yeah, it's like it's like uh, you know, when I when I lived in the East Village years and years ago, and you could just like walk around and get everything you needed and never leave.
+
+[6:37] Yeah. Uh yeah, it's like that. Yeah, and this is uh yet another episode for those that don't hang out in New York City, that uh people from people from New York City, we all believe that we're somehow really worldly and that everyone else is provincial, and most of us don't leave five blocks from our house, which is a five-minute walk radius. If you plant a compass, maybe 10, you plant a compass and you draw a 10-minute walk in a circle, 95% of us stay in that circle all the time unless we're going to work. Anyway, yeah, and and then in our spare time, uh, rather than high culture and all of the uh all of the worldly things that we are supposedly involved in.
+
+[7:19] We compare microgradations of uh neighborhood, neighborhood quality from block to block. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how we do. That's how we do. Uh so originally uh you were talking to Nastasi, and you were gonna come on to promote your what was supposed to be book coming out very soon, but instead you're pushed the book off for uh a couple of months.
+
+[7:43] But you want to tell us what the book is, or you want to talk about it? Yeah, well, my my book, yes. Um it I've been I've been working on it for a while, so I may have actually plugged it here before. Um Flavorama, the unbridled science of flavor and how to get it to work for you. Uh it is it is a handbook to the science of flavor, uh with a lot of friendly diagrams and uh explanations of how molecules and plants and volatiles and the brain and ebbs and cooking work and also with some recipes to help you uh understand those things and incorporate them into your cooking to become more uh intuitive and creative.
+
+[8:25] First of all, can I just tell you what a fantastic title that is? Yo, thank you. Yo, Matt, Matt, do you have uh do you have any reverb effects there? Sadly, sadly not now. You don't have reverb?
+
+[8:40] Flavorama! It needs to be on like severe reverb, man. We could do it, we could do it in post. Yeah. Add some reverb.
+
+[8:48] I'll do it one time. I'll do it without the reverb of the Flavorama! And then what's the slug underneath? What's the slug line? Oh, the subtitle?
+
+[8:58] Yeah. Oh, the unbridled science of flavor and how to get it to work for you. What if it was like the hardcore like flavorama, like Sunday, Sunday, Sunday? For Flavorama. And then it's like the unbridled.
+
+[9:09] Like you know, you go like real, you go real droopy dog for the rest of it. It's good. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So I love the title.
+
+[9:19] I don't even care what the book has to say. I don't want to. I mean, I guess marketing is more important than content. So hell yeah. Yeah.
+
+[9:26] What's the cover look like on that thing? Well, we're we're working on that now. Um, so it's probably going to have a molecule and maybe a cool drawing. Also, she's doing all the drawings and all like watercolor stuff. It's really cool.
+
+[9:41] You crazy Ariel. I know. I love to make things extremely difficult for myself. How many drawings do you have total? And how many water how many of those are watercolors?
+
+[9:51] I think I think right now drawings. I probably need to do like a hundred more. Um and out of how many? Oh, there's gonna be about 200. Um halfway done with the drawings.
+
+[10:04] Yeah. Okay. Uh and probably like 15% or watercolor. They're all so like my I drew I do everything, I sketch with pencil, then I like to ink with either like for super fine lines, I use like a uh uh like a stadler or a um one of those like Sakura fine liners. Um but the pen I really like is a like German graffiti pen called a Molotov.
+
+[10:34] Um I think it has like car paint or something in it. Um, but it gives you like a really nice like India ink thick line, but with like fine nib control. And then to the Germans. Yeah, exactly. To to over-engineer the most perfect uh the most perfect material for any task whether that's uh wonderful gardening tools or wool clothing or uh graffiti pens um and then some some stuff I'm coloring in Photoshop and then that's more for like concepts and then for like real things like a piece of fruit I do watercolors.
+
+[11:10] Uh so um but it is the front like are you gonna like cash in on that like kind of like 50s 60s O Rama thing and like have pastel triangles on the front like those long like Chevron y like like like two sided triangle BSs you know I'm talking about oh to make to make it look like a mid-century like physics textbook yeah yeah then with like you know with like like a crazy molecule with the with the fake satellite spinning electricity that would be really fun I'll have to I'll have to like mock that up and uh but if I know you you're gonna be like but electrons don't do that. You're using you're using the boar model yeah yeah yeah yeah we like you know better than that come on man it's gotta be face space filling it's a space filling model but the space filling model doesn't fit the Ohama aerial it doesn't fit the Orama of it all yeah there's there's there's something about a uh probability distribution of an electron wave that uh is very accurate but maybe doesn't have as much visual not so orama flavorama, we're the win you get like flavorama is such a great that's not the key of Oklahoma, but that would be like that's such a great title. Flavorama. Thank you. Thank you.
+
+[12:28] I want to know anyone out there that won't sign up to buy a book called Flavorama because it also it makes it sound like it's gonna be fun. Is it gonna be fun? I am trying to make it fun. Yeah, no, it's gonna be fun. There's 200 drawings in a day.
+
+[12:41] Of course it's fun. You could buy it just as a picture book for the kids. That's how fun is gonna be. And by the way, uh you and I and uh the all of us in Booker and Dax team still have to work on that secret project. I've done some research by the way and spoken to you.
+
+[12:54] Yeah, no, I keep I keep like doing a bit of research and then having to like put out a fire and then being like, I should really send this to Dave. Like a literal fire or like uh writing a book fire. Right or no, writing a book fire, which are usually of my own creation. Um, but uh or like uh I no, and I'm also um still still having a lot of fun working on Good Eats, which also sometimes has uh, you know, uh gotta okay this model or or diagram for the blackboard because we're filming it tomorrow. But yeah, so oh you're filming uh are you filming with mask?
+
+[13:30] How's it working working? Not when I say we actually, since they film in Atlanta and I am here in New York, um, but I believe they are all wearing masks. Maybe Alton is not wearing a mask when he films. Um we'll see because the new season premieres very shortly. Uh for those of you that don't remember, Ariel is the first science officer, which sounds like a Star Trek title, but uh is in fact a title on the show, Good Eats, right?
+
+[13:55] I I am the Spock of Good Eats. This is true. Yeah, yeah. Well, don't do that Spock thing where you go into the radiation and get yourself zapped because unlike you know, we can't mind meld into the other doctor and like come back later. I don't have that superior Vulcan physiology.
+
+[14:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you know, whatever. Uh so uh I have a question in for you actually so why don't we hit that one first this one's on the Twitter from Chef Joanna. I'd love to hear um Ariel speak about how cooking should be included in by the way what do you think Ariel about steam versus STEM as an acronym let me finish the question first in steam education uh it's uh thermodynamics slash organic chemistry slash biology. I'm trying to get schools to adopt cooking science into their curriculum and it's a struggle that's surprisingly difficult to overcome.
+
+[14:46] Well I I I mean I don't know whether what she's talking about is the fact that it's hard to put it into one department because usually classes are broken up by department and as she says cooking is so multidisciplinary from a science perspective. That's true and and so many so many fields like whether it's in the humanities or in the sciences like kind of look down on their colleagues who do the food version of that thing. Yeah. It's just like an institutionalized but I mean I mean how how would you do it though? Like if it like it's got to be under a department right I guess not in a high school but in a college it has to be under a department isn't that part of the problem that it that is part of the problem.
+
+[15:25] No it's super it's like really difficult to um yeah to find a place where you can really like explore all of it because you know if you're if you're focusing or if you like find a home in a chemistry department then you're gonna like shortchange the like biology um if you're in a physics department you might not get all the like ac really important cultural and evolutionary stuff. And then if if you're a like uh you know humanities department then you can miss out on the science aspects um even if you cover like the anthropology really well so that's difficult I mean I guess at like the at the pre-college level you tend to have just like a science department not a like not just like chemistry so that should be a bit easier um yeah I mean I don't know like it's there's a lot of really strong test cases that show that uh food and cooking are like really good for teaching science and getting young people engaged in science. I mean Dave you've been doing a Harvard course for like 10 years or more at this point. Yeah. Um so if it's good enough for Harvard it should be good enough for uh for various other administrators I think.
+
+[16:46] Ah I don't know about that. Um and so for those of you that don't uh aren't involved in education or haven't been for a long time uh STEM is I forget what the acronym stands for but it's like something something science technology engineering and mathematics. Alright so that was STEM and then sometime when my kids were like in elementary school they changed it from STEM to STEM. Yeah they added the A for Bird. The hell is that but then okay so we've acknowledged that S T E and M are all important although there's a uh well okay by giving it an acronym it's kind of like NASA if you give it an acronym it um becomes important.
+
+[17:31] Uh although I've often seen the argument and tend to agree with it that uh when people say STEM they mean T E. So like in terms of like putting putting young people into it into a job track that pays well and that is actually gets invested in that's really technology science and mathematics like still really get the short shrift. Well the math people though have all those hedge fund weasels paying for it. Not that you guys are weasels I'm just saying this is true. This is true.
+
+[18:05] But then I mean that when math becomes that applied isn't that like kind of a form of tech rather than pure mathematics. Ooh strong strong argument Ariel I appreciate it. Joanna channel said that she was focusing on grade school to high school and I think in response to the arts she was saying it's looked at like home ec, not like science. Right, right, right, totally um I mean which is interest I mean like uh uh if you look at like the history of home ec and food science like actually a lot of uh you know technical and scientific work happened in the in the purview of home economics departments um but you know back it back in like the the the through the 60s uh it was like well if women are doing it's hop doing it it's home ecum so there's this interesting uh historical reasoning behind why we like write off the the sort of exploration that happens in in what we call home economics um that has historically not just been about like homemaking. Right.
+
+[19:17] But that's a question more for a historian than for a scientist who fakes being uh knowing things about history. Yeah, right. Like that, like you didn't have to deal with that in your uh gra in your doctoral thesis uh on uh getters and whatnot but the um like wait it's interesting like I'm sure you've read uh and the cracklings were superb and like oh yeah I have uh I I I have a um yeah first edition copy of that actually yeah and the the first like however many paragraphs of anything he writes is apologizing for writing about food. Right, right. You know what I mean?
+
+[19:51] Yeah. It's kind of funny. I'm to be it is funny um that like apologia of it. But so okay but like go going into practicalities I would I mean I would say if you're trying to incorporate food into a excuse me um take that out in post uh into a more like technically scientific focused curriculum. I mean you know school districts school districts have like different things that that are like fashionable that they're trying to emphasize whether that's like ecology or like uh you know uh green type stuff um and I think fortunately the thing about food is that it touches so many things that it's kind of easy to look into either the like stated or unstated agenda of of a school board or of a school's like mission and like find a food lesson that can those topics uh so I would that's what if I had to do that that's what I would try to do is um I mean like I'm getting to the point where I'm old enough that like I you know know how to make an impassioned defense of things and people will tend that doesn't always make stuff get done um so so finding the most practical and easy for other people way to uh incorporate some ideas is often I find the key to actually getting something to happen.
+
+[21:31] I'm gonna choose some of these questions here from our listeners uh that I think you might have something to say about. Oh okay. Uh all right. So by the way if you're on our chat room, Matt, how do they get into the chat room if they're actually listening to I guess if they're listening to us they can get on the chat room because it means they're on the website already. Uh yes I let me I'll find the link.
+
+[21:54] Give me two seconds. Yeah yeah so you know chat your questions in and Matt can read them to Ariel while we're going but here we go Solomon's writing in from San Antonio haven't been back to San Antonio in a long time. Uh I'm creating a syrup uh that works for lattes and sipping chocolate from craft untempered single origin ecuadorian craft small batch chocolate that's a mouthful is it not yeah uh so the first method is one pound of chocolate one liter of almond milk uh with sugar as a binder uh never made sipping chocolate before a craft chocolate what are some things to try to experiment with so like have you ever had an experiment using the kind of um untempered kind of gritty I mean I've just I've never used it other than buying the you know the abuela like Mexican chocolate blanks and making hot chocolate with those right do you have any experience with this any anything to um I mean, I I have I have had and have picked up some um like Mayer Domo uh drinking chocolate from Oaxaca that's kind of like that. Although that tends to have like almonds in it too. Um is is there like an issue that he's having or is it just a creative just like creative?
+
+[23:05] What what are some things to experiment with? Question. Yeah. Um so almond milk is interesting. Um is it is the I I guess the idea maybe that it's trying to be vegan.
+
+[23:17] Well, it would be vegan since there's nothing in here that is not vegan. That would be vegan. I just wonder if you might need some like protein to help. I mean, like normally like milk protein would help uh like bind it together and keep it emulsified. Um well the the the whereas the native proteins in the almond milk don't have any any of the effected casein would.
+
+[23:39] You need to add some garbage to it to get it to I mean almond milk doesn't have a lot of protein in it. Right. It's mostly fat. So how do they stabilize it? What do they add to it?
+
+[23:48] Uh uh well a lot of places add like guar gum or um uh carrageenin. Remember, if you add guar, make sure to get the flavor-free guar from tape gums. Flavor free and t one thousand flavor. Dude, have you if you've ever taken I have, don't, and just started tasting your hydrocolloid powders to see what what you're kind of adding to your product. Yo, regular guar tastes like a pile of beans.
+
+[24:14] I mean, it's a great name, but it is not a good tasting hydrocolloid in its normal um because think about this. Everyone's like, oh, it's made in a lab. No, guar is ground up seeds. Yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:27] And so like, you know, the ones that aren't like kind of purified well, it tastes like ground up seeds, and you do not want the whole wheat version of guar. Uh yeah, sometimes sometimes more processing is better. Oh, hell yeah. You just want the thickness on it. You don't want it to get all nasty.
+
+[24:43] Uh, but carrageenin, I guess it's a non-acidic environment. Almost everyone, from an industrial standpoint, ever since Jelan's patent ran out from CP Celco, they're moving away from the carrageenins in their um stabilized milk stuff. You know what I mean? Oh, and into gelans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[25:00] Those are like microbial, right? Or yes. I don't remember what, I don't remember what uh is the organism of choice, but yeah, it's uh yeah, it's microbial, and CP Calco's patent ran out, I think a couple of years ago. Oh, it used to be like so. For those of you that don't know, CP Celco is the giant European-based pectin concern, but they also have a bunch of patents, for instance, on gel-an, which so gel-an is kind of cool because there's two main kinds of gel an and they can be mixed back and forth.
+
+[25:29] And the low acyl gelan, this is confusing. The low acyl gel-an is brittle uh and um and short, and the and the high acyl gel-an is real stretchy like a rubber band. So you can get these kind of gelatin style textures by mixing the two kinds of uh gel-an, and they have other cool properties like the low acyl forms of very good fluid gel, which we can talk about if anyone cares. And um it's also uh uh heat stable, so you can light it on fire, it doesn't melt out. So a lot of times when people were making what's called water desserts or water gels for hot climates, they would use agar, right?
+
+[26:05] Um, but the other great thing about gel an is it's very low in use percentages, so much, much less than you'd use for most other hydrocolloids. Carrageenin had a very low in-use uh ratio for dairy because it reacted extremely synergistically with dairy. Uh so with Jel-An, they were charging a lot more. They weren't trying to replace carrageenin, they were trying to replace other uh hydrocolloids, and they were charging a boat ton more for it, but they were like, but it's in-use cost is so low. And typically, like the lower the amount of a hydrocolloid you can use for a given textural effect, the less flavor masking there was.
+
+[26:42] So one of Jell Ann's big things was you would get really, really good flavor release, you know, at the same in-use cost. But now that their patent has run out, everyone's like crap on carrageenin because a bunch of health people are worried about these uh what you don't remember what they're called, the the the deck degraded carrageenin. There's a word for the degraded carrageenin things. Oliosaccharides, maybe? I know, but they're yeah, but there's some kind of like especially kappa, there's some kind of degraded carrageenin that people say causes some kind of gut issue.
+
+[27:10] And so, like the vast majority of people have moved away from using carrageenin in things like chocolate milk or things like yogurts or uh cream stabilization and have moved on to gel-an, but whatever. I digress. Yeah. So uh you could use some gel an uh Solomon. But uh but do they mean like flavor stuff?
+
+[27:33] I mean, like the classic, like like I mean, the classic drinking chocolate would have been non-dairy anyway. I don't know what the nut of choice would have been in Mexico at the time because almonds came from over here, but it's true. Yeah, I'm not sure what the like filberts perhaps there were in the Americas. I'm not sure what the uh the nut situation was. I should look it up though.
+
+[27:55] Yeah. But I wonder if you're making if you're making a syrup with chocolate, it sounds like he's using like uh like a chocolate bar. Yeah. Or is it like a cocoa powder? Out of that bar, because there's no such thing as there's no such thing as like if you're doing like a minimally processed that they're not even tempering it, the eye, like they're probably just grinding it on, you know, like a grinder to like a you ever talk to Rick Bayliss about his chocolate grinder?
+
+[28:14] I have not had the pleasure. So, you know, he was saying uh he I don't know what it's what it's called, but like the rotary style grinder, like like we use like the Santha or the wet grinder that we all buy, like the the uh Idley and Dosa grinders, like the two stone whites that we all get from India. Uh he had a similar one, you know, specifically for chocolate, like a melee for chocolate, but he was saying that you know, everyone who thinks from a European standpoint, they overprocess it because they want that texture, yeah, which he doesn't care about, but also they actually want those volatiles to go away. Whereas he says, you know, in his opinion, like, you know, part of the awesome thing about some of these kind of drinking chocolates are those volatiles that other people try to get to go away. Oh yeah, absolutely.
+
+[29:05] I mean, you get like much more like botanical and microbial flavors and maybe a little bit less on the like uh like heat and processing derived ones here. Yeah. So you can actually get more terroir from grinding it less. Yeah. I mean, an interesting, like so something I've something actually have actually been writing about recently is um is uh uh uh making all different types of things into all different types of like plant material into like milks.
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+[29:38] So like almond milk, other grain milks, sort of making that into orjot. Um so I wonder if maybe instead of approaching this as like making a syrup with the like minimally ground, minimally processed and ground chocolate almond milk, why not make a milk out of the chocolate and some almonds um so like grind together like with water and do some like high blending and then straining so then rather rather than um rather than nibs yeah start with start with i mean start with nibs or start with like the partially ground chocolate um don't add almond milk but like blend blend everything together as if you're making cacao milk um and then kind of take it into a syrup from there that sounds cool and by the way uh for syrups for that I would definitely look into a gum arabic slash uh like small amount of Xanthan thickened um stabilizing system such as Ticoloid 210 or Ticaloid 310s available from modernspantry.com or you can uh I think we talked about it a couple of weeks ago what the thing was oh Ariel on the Twitter I got another question in for you okay oh uh we just got one in the chat too oh yeah what do you want first? Well go for it all right chat's in uh oh by the way it is mixler.com slash heritage radio network uh really go to any of the show notes and the link is in the show notes um so digital audio tape asks for fermenting produce e.g. sauerkraut pickles peppers for hot sauce is sanitation slash sterilization of jars slash lids airlocks actually important or is it just busy work? My feeling is that lacto fermentation with enough salt and acid production should be fine enough to make things safe and successful our ancestors just had clay pots and they did fine.
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+[31:34] Or that we just had well, and so a lot of people use um pits in the ground uh for for good and safe fermentation. Um so I I personally don't sanitize things when I'm lactofermunting, but I do give them like a good wash in hot water with soap. Uh but it's like a star sand as you would use for brewing beer. So not like an SLS based detergent. Yeah.
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+[32:01] Yeah, I just I mean, sometimes I'll just like run it through the dishwasher, uh, you know, on hot and just use it right out of the dishwasher. Wow. So that's an actual goodie because everyone used to make fun of of uh dishwasher cooking. Remember when that was a yeah. No, I don't run the cabbage through the dishwasher, but I run the jars through the dishwasher.
+
+[32:20] Yeah. Wait, what was dishwasher cooking? It was a thing. Imagine, imagine sous vide, but inside the dishwasher because it's hot. Yeah, and then everyone all at once was like, this doesn't work.
+
+[32:34] Stop. You know what I mean? Anything not safe. Alright. So although I once I once I recently like had a wooden handled spatula fall down on the heating element of my uh dishwasher, and all the all the stuff came out slightly smoked.
+
+[32:53] So maybe that's a new in a delicious way with water spoon. Was it like an olive wood spoon or just like no, it's just regular, I mean it's it's regularly wood, so it just smelled like you know, vaguely pleasant burning. But uh no one's ever called my aroma vaguely pleasant. This episode is brought to you by a dozen cousins. Soulfully seasoned, ready to eat beans.
+
+[33:21] A dozen cousins aims to bring families delicious and easy to prepare food inspired by traditional black and Latino recipes. From their Cuban black beans made with onion, garlic, and bell peppers to their Mexican cowboy beans made with green chilies and jalapenos. All the beans from a dozen cousins use easy to recognize ingredients like beans, vegetables, and nutrient-dense avocado oil while avoiding GMOs and artificial flavors. Learn more at a dozencousins.com. Okay, so uh Wowie Zawi writes in, friend of the show, uh hey uh to you, Ariel.
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+[33:58] Uh I've been dabbling with lactoferments and always get pretty good results, but I'm wondering if there's a way to boost the acidity. I find that even after a long ferment, the pickles just aren't quite tangy enough. Should I cheat with lactic acid? I mean, you can. Um other things you could do are okay.
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+[34:18] So so lactic acid comes directly from sugar and fermentation. So then what you'd want to make more lactic acid is to have the like starting concentration of sugar be higher. Um, I suppose you could add some sugar, maybe a little like grape must or apple juice, which I've tried kind of specifically for this, um, for this thing. I was it was for making more flavored brines. Um, and it can work.
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+[34:43] If you add too much sugar, you run the risk of it getting quite yeasty. I mean, the other thing is if you um if you slightly wilt some of your vegetables before you before you use them, um, some of the water evaporates away, and that'll concentrate the sugars. Uh so that's actually like an important part of making uh taquan pickles. Those are the uh Daikon and rice bran Japanese uh pickles um that you'll often often get. The the first step is to sort of hang up a bunch of daikons and let them partially win before salting and uh adding the rice brand to them to to brine and ferment.
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+[35:23] So that like makes them make slightly less brine and also concentrates the natural sugars, which makes it more sour. Speaking of rice brand, I have a whole bunch of wheat bran in my freezer that I'm saving up to do wheat brand pickles with. Oh, to do like uh uh wheat wheat nucleo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the thing is is that like, I mean, come on, man.
+
+[35:42] I mean, like we live in the real world here. Like everyone is like, if you don't aerate it all the time, oh it's never gonna stir it every day. I know, come on, man. Like, there's gotta be some way to like put it in the fridge and halt it for a week and just do it once a week. There's got to be.
+
+[36:02] It works great. You know what I mean? My sourdough works great. And I, you know, don't follow any of those, whatever. I don't know.
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+[36:07] What do you think? Have you had any experience with that stuff? Like of not like of trying to make a low maintenance one of those. Well, I mean, this is the thing is I I mean, I love nuka pickles. Um, I am also not the most organized person.
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+[36:20] So I've had more of them just kind of die on me uh than I've had be successful. Um I did not think of putting them in the fridge, but that is a uh I mean that's a great idea. And there's there are actually a lot of a lot of fermentations that now like people when they're experimenting will tend to do them at room temperature or even heat them up. Um, but like a lot of a lot of kimchi and and things like that really benefit from like starting at room temperature and then basically fermenting entirely in the fridge. Uh I was in I was in Seoul in December and um there's this restaurant slash culinary studio called Angium um where they do a lot of like pri well like primary and secondary research on like regional recipes for like cuisine of the nobility.
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+[37:10] Anyway, so it's like stuff that large households would be making. Yeah and some of some of the fermentations they um you know they'll have like an oyster kimchi that's been in the fridge for two years and it's like amazing. I bet I would like to do you could actually get some improvement of flavor from this slow cold fermentation. That's the thing I well I know I'll run a test. The problem is is that I don't have that much rice brand pickling.
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+[37:35] I mean I did it once at the FCI uh you know and then somebody pitched it because they it was in a s that's the problem with the FCI students like what is this it smells weird you know what I mean? Well and and and you uh at a lot of restaurants you have the classic thing of like one one cook will start it out and then uh it doesn't get uh tang at all that there's like a a a trail of like dead nuka pickles. Yeah yeah and then also like no one really talks about like exactly like how to know how much to add back in. Whatever. It's a complicated thing.
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+[38:12] I'll work on it. Um staying on the fermentation train for a minute uh B zoo Chocolate wrote in uh to you and just mentioned that they're doing a deep dive into cacao fermentation this week. Awesome. And they're gonna tune into what you're saying so why don't you say something uh give wise words well are the are they making or they're researching cacao? Well, probably both.
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+[38:35] Yeah. Yeah. I'm I mean um it's like a i I I've looked into this some too. It's like a super well, most like most uninoculated fermentations is a super crazy thing. Um you get like a lot of like really really interesting wild yeasts, a lot of like acetic bacteria doing stuff at the same time as like lactic acid bacteria.
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+[38:58] Um I mean almost think of it like a sourdough, but on but on fruit. Uh although have having said that, I think you could if you're fermenting cacao fruits at home, if you have access to fresh cacao fruits, I'm very jealous. That's very cool. Um but yeah, if you're getting into like the beginnings of the fermentation, what it could be really cool, um, would be experimenting with like a mix of wild fermented and like inoculated uh cacao. Um something that might work quite well if you can get your hands on it would be a pishia yeast.
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+[39:34] That's like P I C H I A. Um those tend to be very good at I believe I know they make very fruity flavors. I believe it is releasing volatile sulfur compounds, although someone might correct me, that might be incorrect. Um, but you get tend to get like quite tropical aromas and things that that use those yeasts. Cool.
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+[39:58] You want you up for another fermentation question? Oh sure. We also we have another one in the chat that's like an anti-fermentation question. First in. Pablo Pavlovsky wrote in, uh, for you, can I make a garum-like sauce by mixing chunks of meat with kiwi papaya and pineapple?
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+[40:14] Man, it's gonna beat that stuff up um yeah pineapple in the fridge for a long time. Would that work? I want the proteases to destroy the meat into a sauce, but I don't want to die or kill other people. Um I mean, you should definitely try that experiment, but I can't give you any guarantee that it would either taste good or be safe. Well uh how do those enzymes how does like uh how do those particular enzymes work at the high salt content you need to prevent well that's that yeah that's what I'm thinking about because he didn't mention salt so I'm not sure if he's going to be including yeah Pablo the answer obviously is salt you can't do that stuff without salt no matter what anyone else tells you.
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+[40:50] Yeah it's uh he he actually had written in it was the same question in the chat but he said should I add salt to prevent the fermentation of the fruits in this one. Well I mean the salt will prevent some of the fermentation of the fruits the salt is also more so that like very dangerous bacteria don't take over the fermentation and possibly kill you. Do you know what's really although most I think mo most garums and uh actually do have a little bit of fermentation that happens mostly from like very salt tolerant yeasts. So that would be uh of course now I am blanking on the actual name of that yeast. Oh Tetragenococcus uh that's can you say that again I love that Tetragenococcus uh Halophilus I think that sounds like like a girlfriend someone had in Brooklyn in the 70s remember when we went out with Tetragenococcus tolerant uh yeasts and some bacteria that will actually do some fermenting.
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+[42:05] Although, I mean, no, I mean, what if you pre-fermented the fruit so there was some acidity and then added it to the meat with salt? That could do some interesting stuff. Yeah. Do you know what tastes delicious? Lacto fermented pineapple is delicious.
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+[42:21] Kiwi, I don't know. Papaya? Whoa. The idea of a fermented papaya makes me want to like jump off of a bridge. Banana's really good.
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+[42:28] Ooh, have I had that? Lacto fermented banana. I've had fermented banana sauces. Ooh. Where was that from?
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+[42:35] Was it Filipino? I forget. I've had fermented banana sauces, but very nice. But ferment straight up like fermented pineapple chunks. I've done it by mistake.
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+[42:42] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, sometimes it's real bad, and sometimes it's real good. You know what I mean? Uh so I would inoculate that. Inoculate that sucker uh and see what's going on.
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+[42:52] Uh all right, a non-fermenting question that uh I will say what I think, and then you guys say what you think. Casey writes in, I want to make a quote, pretzel crouton. Is it safe to cut any regular bread, dip it in a lye bath one to 20, and then bake? I asked because uh this means eating uh eating more lyee directly than traditional pretzel. Looking at sliced bread on a slicer, then cutting circles as a garnish, thanks.
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+[43:18] Love the show, Mr. Blog. I don't look the lie my take on this is that the lye is on a surface, right? You're gonna get like instant deep penetration of the stuff into the thing, and it's gonna be entirely that soapy thing. So, like I would say that it's gonna be A, it's gonna be unpleasant.
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+[43:38] Uh, and B, it's gonna be too much. And also remember that when you're doing a lie dip in a pretzel, there's still moisture in the product. You're slicing the bread, you've already uh flashed off a lot of the moisture, and so um it's gonna go from brown to black real fast uh once you add all that extra alkaline um stuff. But I don't know. What do you what do you think, Ariel?
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+[44:00] Well, two things I'm thinking right off the bat is yeah, to avoid this like uh lie sponge effect, maybe use sodium carbonate instead of lye. So like a much weaker uh source of alkali. Um I mean the other thing is like maybe don't dip or spread it if you uh put some in a spray bottle and lightly misted the cubes, that might give you the effect that you wanted without oversaturating it. Yeah, but still I think starting from something that's already dry, it's just you're gonna have to keep a real eagle eye on that thing. You know what I mean?
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+[44:36] Yeah, that is true. I mean, even like like when you have a bread that's par dry that has a lot of you ever made croutons from something that has sugar in it and it's like, oh no! Right, like brioche or something, and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It goes from blonde to burnt like that.
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+[44:53] You know what I mean? So it's real, it's really problematic. You know, here's another thing, like crouton people. Like, you don't need to go to the oven right away. You can just let that sucker dry out for a little while first.
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+[45:06] You know what I mean? So that you're not trying to get all of the moisture out of the inside. Uh good. Most people they jack their temperature too high when they're doing croutons because they want those things to get out of the oven fast. Right.
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+[45:18] And so they they it's a no-win situation. You really want a relatively slow, slow dry, the same way that they would dry a real pretzel in the real life, which is down around 200 Fahrenheit in that range. You know what I mean? Just enough to a little higher, enough to blast off all the water. It needs to be above the point where the water wants to leave over time, but um not to where it starts browning hardcore.
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+[45:39] You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah. Yeah yeah um all right Josh Seaburg writes saying Joshua sorry uh hello cooking issues a friend of mine has a desire to build a tandoor but has no yard to do so and has pitched a plan to build one in my backyard yeah yeah of course they're like hey yeah uh I'm looking for advice on the best ways to do this uh and anything to be sure to do or include in the process thanks very much Josh okay well as far as I know uh and you know I'm happy to be corrected the only you should look you get to choose one of these two if you've never cooked in a Tandoor before right then you can either spend a lot of time building a tandoor and then hoping that it has the right characteristics right or you can get a tandoor from someone for not that much money and spend your time learning how to cook in a tandoor right uh but you we you know if you're only gonna do it a couple of times then you know I I'm just trying to like you you want to spend the majority of your time where you want it to be do you want to build a tandoor because what you want to do is build a tandoor or do you want to cook in a tandoor right so just go there. Uh I would try to get a copy of uh the only known Tandor book to me Tandoor cooking book by uh Ranjit Rai Tandor he's now dead the book may be out of print at this point it's the only one so it's not and what's interesting about it is it gives a an overview of actually constructing tandoors uh but the way that they're really done so this to dovetail the classic way on the internet is the same way that uh Nastasi and I did when we remember that film with Anthony Bourdain?
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+[47:19] Yeah. We went to the hardware store. This is what everyone does. You go to the hardware store, you buy two flower pots, and then you cut whole and flower pots are made of terracotta, and then you cut two holes, you cut a hole in the bottom to allow you to stoke it, and then you cut the top the bottom off of one and you turn it upside down, and you have two inverted flower pots. And then, you know, if you're fancy Dan, like we were, you you mud it out with refractory cement, right?
+
+[47:44] And then you put it inside of a trash can, and then you well, you pour some vermiculite on the bottom of the trash can, and then you pour a bunch of vermiculate around it, and there you have you know your one afternoon tandoor. So that tandoor you can make it for like 50, 60 bucks. It's the trash can, the two flower pots and a bag of vermiculate, and you know, wear a mask when you're grinding off the uh the top of the flower pot. But my experience is uh even in that one day, of course, because we overfired it because it's us, right? But we cracked that flower pot.
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+[48:15] Now it didn't fall apart instantly, but I wouldn't say that that tandoor would have lasted a long time, right, Stas? Yeah, no. No. No. Didn't you get one?
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+[48:24] Or you were calling around, right? I was calling around. Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that. Nastassi is trying to get me to go to a yeah, so like so like I called around, no one was selling tandoors, so I had to I had to build one. So uh, and in fact, we weren't even interested in tandoors per se, but it turns out that that structure, that like kind of underground y or enclosed oven, is kind of an efficient way and was used all over uh Middle East, uh, all the way, you know, all the way over to China, in fact.
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+[48:54] And so it was kind of a ubiquitous thing that nowadays we only really associate with um, you know, from the the Punjab down uh on uh in in Indian subcontinent. Anyways, uh actually that's not true. I guess everyone now is nowadays is familiar with uh the Tandoor style breads from uh the north and the west of China, right? Everyone's familiar with those things nowadays, but they weren't I don't know, they weren't when we were doing this. So point being that if you just want to do something in a day and do it once, sure, go do that.
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+[49:24] Uh but in the real life, uh the way that they're made is there's fibers in the clay, they're made, they're molded. You have to cure it in order to make it non in order to get the right surface to actually cook uh a naan on, if that's what you're interested in, they have to be seasoned typically with things like like uh spinach leaves and mustard oil and yogurt, and you fire it slowly over a couple of times to bake out any water so that it doesn't crack. Uh, you know, so there's there's all that to go. I would say that of the ones I looked up on the internet this morning, seeing what people are talking about now, uh, I would make sure that it has a bottom opening, not just vent holes like a Weber, but like an actual opening that you can uh pull ashes out while it's uh working and adjust the amount of air that's coming in and out. Um, and make sure there's a nice curved inside surface so that there's area for you to put the breads in, but also for skewers to hang and spend some time thinking about your skewer game.
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+[50:20] I never got very good with my skewer game, and a ske a good skewer game is super important because when you have your your your product and you're putting it in and then it slides down and drops into your coals and ignites, you feel like a jerk. In fact, you are a jerk, right? You should have had a better skewer game. Uh, the other issue is so how does one develop that technique? You just gotta get good at it.
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+[50:46] You don't put too much weight on it, you get the right kind of skewers with the right width so that it has the right amount of grab. Like, like uh most people they're using like the the really slick stainless skewers, which are good for horizontal kind of grilling. Like what was the name of that stuff that Mark used to use? Those those little mini Italian or Croatian horizontal skewer stuff. Um I don't remember.
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+[51:07] But you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so there's like they're Croatian, right? Aren't they Croatian things?
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+[51:13] Yeah. So like those things, they're flat skewers and the grill has little triangle-shaped things so that you could put it in any position just by rotating it around the triangles. Anyway, so you get like four different positions with these skewers. Anyway, uh the s smoother your skewer is, the more it's gonna kind of drop off. Like, so like I would skewer the stuff on.
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+[51:30] Sometimes I would stick something on the end of it to stop it from sliding off. And then you gotta hang it and let it dry out a little bit, and you wanna organize your skewering such that when the if it's meat, when the meat seizes, it seizes around the skewer so that it doesn't want to come off. Uh that's kind of the that's you know, the trick. But the other big problem with tandoors is the intense amount of radiant heat coming off the bottom, because that's where the coals are. So, especially in a smaller tandoor, which was what you're gonna do.
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+[51:58] In a big, big, big tandoor, you can have a lot of stuff hanging in and you can keep it relatively far away from the heat on the bottom, and you're not gonna get a lot of scorching on the bottom. But if not, um try to wad up a ball of aluminum foil and just jam it over the end, and that'll shield it from the direct line of sight of the coals, which will which will burn your burn your stuff off. Um anyway, but the real tandoors, you can also, if you want to do this in a real so my friend who who first got me interested in in getting a tandoor, Bob Dada, who's a professor over at Harvard. Ariel, you know Bob? I don't think I do.
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+[52:31] Anyway, he's uh he's uh yeah, he's a professor over at Harvard. What does he do? Med school. Uh he has a lab, he has a lab and in like he he does like, he does actually like uh one of his projects is rat olfaction, which is kind of oh very cool. Yeah.
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+[52:47] Um but he also has this thing where he's he developed a system to analyze the movements of rats uh via a computer so you don't need to have a uh a lab tech sitting there counting every movement that the rat makes when you're trying to do it so they can they can get a lot more data a lot more accurately and a lot uh more quickly using this kind of like um um visual recognition machine learning thing he's he's doing a lot of cool stuff the he you know he'll win all the big prizes one day anyway uh so he was like when his grandma came over um from they were from the north uh when when they of India when they when they came over to the US the first thing that grandma did was dig a hole in the ground, like like figure out whether the clay was good, you know, made the Tandoor thing, put it in the ground and build it. I mean, if you want to be a super badass, that's what you do. You know what I mean? Of course, I don't want to be a super badass. So like I think the the minimum badassery is to just you can buy just the liner.
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+[53:45] Uh and the nice thing about professional Tandoor liners is is that they they have uh uh either grass or horse hair or something similar in in the clay to hold it together during its initial firing, and this kind of prevents it from like instantly kind of cracking or causing problems. All right, tandors, love them. Uh and the name of that author uh uh of the book on Tandoor, which there might be a new one, please someone tell me what there is. Ranjit Rai, R-A-N-J-I-T, R A I. Uh all right, uh okay.
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+[54:17] So we gotta go pretty shortly here. Oh, geez, Louise. Let me see whether I have any more questions on the Twitter for Ariel because the rest of this stuff I can probably answer on my own later. Um I think that's it. I think we got the specific questions for you.
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+[54:27] Um great. Well, I love to uh clear out a to do list. Yeah, well, no, I this morning, because I didn't even know because by the way, no one told me Ariel is gonna be on. I mean, uh, you're always first of all, Ariel, always welcome on, obviously. No one told me squat.
+
+[54:47] We like like literally Nastasia and John and I at 11 30 last night, Eastern time, we're on the phone with our one of the factories that we're working with in China, and these two knuckleheads are having a conversation with themselves on text about you coming on the show tomorrow. They don't tell me. They don't tell me. Well, we've gotta we've gotta keep you on your toes, right, Dave? I guess.
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+[55:10] I guess. Um all right, so so John, which one of the four remaining questions that are in should I answer right now on the way out? Um let's see. I wish we could get to the barbecue sauce one, but that's long. Well, why does Ariel have something to say about the barbecue sauce one?
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+[55:29] I haven't read that one yet. All right, well, so basically, uh Chuck Ramsey at Pulaski Heights Barbecue in Atlanta sent in this question. He I think it's last four times he's made this barbecue sauce. It's set in a very weird way once he refrigerated it. Uh he says it's very pectinous, if that's a word.
+
+[55:46] And he's been making this recipe uh for years and years and years and thousands of times, and it's never been an issue except for these last four times. And he's always weighed everything to the gram, so he's ruling out user error and everything else is basically like spices and a little vinegar. So he thinks it's the ketchup and is wondering if it's maybe fermenting or if there's an ex excess heat in the atmosphere that's doing something. Um I think that's the best way to sum up that one. By the way, he's using Heinz, America's favorite ketchup.
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+[56:17] Uh so the ingredients, uh, Ariel are Heinz ketchup, yellow mustard, but doesn't specify seed or a prepared mustard, right? Because there's a lot of gelling agents and mustard seeds. But if it's yellow mustard, is that like French's? Well, that's what I'm saying, but is it yellow mustard seed? Like the white mustard seed?
+
+[56:35] Or is it or is it yellow prepared mustard? Yeah, like French's. Because like those prepared mustards don't have a lot of just in the order of which he's listing everything. It sounds like it's wet and then the dries. Yeah.
+
+[56:46] Molasses, white vinegar, ancho chili powder, kosher salt, black pepper, onion powder, garlic powder, and all spice. Not cooked, blended together, and it's always stored at room temperature. I kept it at home in the fridge for a number of years. And it's only the last three batches that are causing problems. So it's like setting like a jelly.
+
+[57:08] But the weird thing is is you wouldn't think that Heinz would change their you wouldn't think that Heinz would change their recipe. Like to include more pectin or something. Or to add a thickener so that they could put less tomato in. Right. Like if I was Heinz, what I would do is I would reduce the amount of tomato solids, because that stuff's expensive, and then I would add a thickener to it to make it seem like it had the same amount of tomato solids.
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+[57:34] That's what I would do if I was gonna be a jerk. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, but I don't think, I mean, like I I don't think Heinz, I think I would have heard someone would have said, Hey Dave, America's favorite ketchup is just drop the ball.
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+[57:48] Right. I mean, because it would be on the label then. At least in the ingredients list, there'd be a change. Yeah, but I don't see anything else that would cause a kind of a reaction. So Well, so I mean, it makes so saying that it's pectinous makes me wonder if it is actually the pectin.
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+[58:04] Um, and to form to form a gel properly, like like in jam, pectin, pectin, like can't really do it on its own. It needs both sugar and acid to do that. So I wonder if um if if like any other ingredient has become more sugary or more acidic that could throw off the like physical gelling of whatever pectin is coming from the tomatoes. Yeah. It's also like, wait, so it thickens and then it gets grainy as if the dry spices are blooming, followed by a separation with a dark liquid component.
+
+[58:40] And in a few days it develops an acetone off flavor, which I assume is from yeast over fermentation. So I mean, look, I mean, I guess it's possible that there's some sort of and like pectin can all of a sudden act weird, like if the acid suddenly changes or or like you say the solid suddenly changes, they can set and a misset pectin is a nasty thing, but graininess also sounds like uh there's a lot of hydrocolloid interactions that can be grainy and disgusting, like agar sometimes interacts with um uh agar, I forget what the interaction is it, agar gel and gets real grainy. But there's there are there are some like weird hydrocolloid interactions where two different polysaccharides don't play nice. And I wonder whether if any of the ingredients you've added have changed their makeup, yeah, or not. You know?
+
+[59:31] Uh I mean, does this sound or like is have you ever heard of something like this? Like, like it's also very acidic already. So I would doubt that a slight shift in acidity based on fermentation would cause this to happen, right? Yeah, I mean, it's it's sound. What about the acetone off flavor?
+
+[59:50] Yeah, that that I'm thinking about too. That's a um although like you don't really see a lot of acetone like flavors from either uh yeast or lactic acid bacteria. You can get some from uh acetic bacteria, but then uh then you'd have to have some alcohol fermenting. Um but like aren't like acetony things from plants usually like enzymatic breakdown things, not like yeast breakdown stuff, like like like bananas, like when they overripe, they get acetony, right? Well, I mean, okay, so it depends on if it's like literally literally acetony or I mean some of the like like banana overripe flavors could just be coming from like excessively high concentrations of natural esters, um, the smaller ones of which can have a kind of chemical edge at higher concentrations, and then at lower concentrations they just smell like banana.
+
+[1:00:54] Yeah. What do you do you think maybe so you could have like some acetone? I mean, you do produce acetone like from yeast. Um it could actually be more of an ethyl acetate smell, and that you can get either from like uh wild yeasts or from like incomplete fermentation into vinegar. Yeah, I mean, like so.
+
+[1:01:15] Then he says that he he made a batch and he kept one container in the walk-in in the you know low 30s and one out, and the one that was out got grainy, and the one in the fridge thickened but isn't grainy yet. So something is happening here. Yeah, and you're getting like a phase separation. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, as soon as you f as soon as as soon as something breaks and flocks, you're gonna get hard phase separation.
+
+[1:01:39] You're gonna get a lot of l liquid coming out. Right, right. Like it, like it as soon as something, first of all, like like that, so like you know, what we used to call that in the hydrochyloid biz is synoresis. So exactly. Yeah, the harder a gel sets typically, and some things are more likely to synerase than others, but like a weekly set kind of thyxotropic pectin mix, which is what ketchup is.
+
+[1:02:00] It's like a bunch of like, you know, as soon as you as soon as you make that harder and it starts squeezing on the on the water harder, you're gonna get phase separation. And if things start actually agglomerating, you'll get graininess. You'll get like flocculation and graininess. So something like that has to be happening. Um I wonder whether the salt level has changed.
+
+[1:02:21] I mean, I just don't know. Something has changed. If it's if it's something that's living, do this, Chuck. See what you think, Ariel. Put some of this stuff in a zippy the day you make it and throw it into water at like, you know, 75 degrees Celsius, and then like just like pasteurize it, right?
+
+[1:02:43] Pasteurize it, kill all the stuff in it. There's I don't think there's any many spore-forming things that are gonna be causing this. And see whether or not that thing goes through the butt. Don't take it to a high enough temperature that you're gonna functionalize pectin. So maybe even in the mid to high sixties, right?
+
+[1:02:59] Uh Celsius. Just pasteurize it, kill any yeast, kill any lactic acid bacteria that's in it, and see whether it goes through the same process. That'll let you know whether it's something alive that's doing it or whether one of your ingredients changed. Do you think that's a a decent decent first step? Yeah, definitely.
+
+[1:03:17] I mean, you could also do a third control where you just put it in a baggie and leave it out on the counter and see if it produces any gas. Uh good point. Because that would also be a good check for fermentation. And speaking of bags, on the way out, I want to know uh for next week if anyone has any uh any uh experience with these things. You heard of these stasher bags, Ariel?
+
+[1:03:40] Those are like the silicone ones? They're silicone, and I saw one in the supermarket, and they're overpriced, right? Right. Uh not but I bought one uh for a couple of reasons. One, it's a woman-known business, so I appreciated that.
+
+[1:03:53] And two, and I love like you know, uh, you know, in the in the food tech thing, you definitely want to support that. Uh, but two, it's made of silicone, which guess what that means, people? You can use it as a retort bag. So we so you you can literally so what I'm gonna do, I have it, I don't know if you can hear it. I'm gonna try to do a pressure cooker comfy in it that's actually retorted and safe to store in the vacuum.
+
+[1:04:20] Oh, okay. What do you think? Very cool. Yeah, I'll report back. Please, yeah.
+
+[1:04:25] Yeah. So I'm trying to figure out a way to get a good air seal on it because it doesn't have one of those one-way valves on it. You know what I'm saying? Right, right. But uh, I don't know.
+
+[1:04:34] I if you guys like a syringe, maybe or uh I tried use my old school. My my zippy technique is I I have a bunch of metal straws, thin ones. Right, right. And I zip it all the way over to the edge, and then I and then pull the straw out of the stuff. That's that's what I do.
+
+[1:04:48] Yeah, yeah. Very high-tech people. This is how the this is how the actual high tech people do it with like straws and ziploc bags. It's like I could break out the food saver, or I could just put a and honestly, people, people, when you're packing uh baked goods in your freezer. So like what you should do, especially in the time of corona, if you do make a baked good, right?
+
+[1:05:10] Slice it and then zippy it, uh, separate it with layers of freezer paper so they don't freeze together. But like that straw, your your lungs are terrible vacuum pumps. So you can't really even get like a full like three quarters of a PSI uh under pressure, right? Really, really, really, really weak vacuum pumps. The the so the good news though is that's just enough to get the bag to make a nice kind of conforming thing around your uh uh your muffin or whatever, but not enough to crush it.
+
+[1:05:41] So if you're putting in a food saver, which has as far as crappy as that vacuum pump is, it's a lot better than your lungs, right? And so like those things have a tendency to crush baked goods, whereas straw with a zippy is the best way to get the most air out of a Ziploc bag for uh baked goods to be put in your freezer because you really don't want a lot of air rattling around uh the bag because that's when you get a lot of um you get a lot of uh crystals growing on it, sublimation and crystals growing back on it, and you get more opportunity for freezer burn. You know what I mean? Hell yeah. Well, Ariel, uh, when is the book now slated to come out?
+
+[1:06:19] Um early 2022, it looks like 2022? I have to wait a whole nother freaky year. 2022. This is gonna come out in late fall 2021. So it's not it's not a big postponement.
+
+[1:06:33] Um look, look, look, look, you know, like, you know, look, uh I'm not one to talk. Nastasia, here's where you insert Nastasia making fun of me. Oh, have you have yes, have you ever turned in a book on time? Well, I've only turned in one and it was horribly late. But this one is even more horribly later.
+
+[1:06:53] If that's uh what so what's yours coming out, or is that a bad question to ask? I mean, I don't know. I gotta hand it in first, but like the what's interesting is is that having talked to a couple other people who are coming out with books now, is like some of them are going through this incredibly short cycle. So, like Yeah, yeah, yeah. That happens.
+
+[1:07:14] Yeah, so it's like, but that used to be just for like, you know, books about politics and and and um and whatever, you know what I mean? Like, but like you know, topical events. But now I'm seeing books that you know I know were handed in like only six months ago coming out now. And so I'm like, wow, how the heck are they doing that? You know, like how because it used to be a full year, right?
+
+[1:07:38] You know what I mean? After it was handed in for it to come out, so I don't know. So I I thought maybe you had more insight into that. That's why I was surprised. Well, look, I can wait.
+
+[1:07:48] I can wait. But hopefully you'll let me see the galleys. By the way, oh, I mean, absolutely, but likewise, I'd love to I'd love to have some eyes on yours. Oh, uh well, I'll I'll send you stuff as it goes. I'll send you stuff as it goes.
+
+[1:08:00] But uh, people make friends with authors so that you can get to see that their galleys, right? But here's the problem a lot of places are moving into only digital galleys now. Yeah. With Corona. Yeah.
+
+[1:08:12] But but but here here's the issue. So if you are friends with authors, and if you're a creative person in a field like this, the hardest thing, and I've actually not read certain things, is because if someone in a book gives you knowledge, right? It's hard not to use that knowledge. And you can't credit the book because it's not out yet. Right, right.
+
+[1:08:35] You know, especially like things like recipes or cooking ideas or things like this. It's like it can be difficult, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's why I don't like it's why I don't like NDAs. I mean, I do I've signed them with you before, but like not that I want we made you sign an NDA. Oh, for the Searsolve back in the day.
+
+[1:08:54] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that I don't like any as like exploit ideas, but like the information's gonna be in my brain, and I can't really like control like what what else it makes me think of. Yeah. Not like for not for like exploitation of money, since I barely ever make any money. Um, but just like like literally my brain's gonna my brain's gonna use it for something.
+
+[1:09:18] Yeah, it's happened to me multiple times. It really is, it really is a thing. Uh it really, really, really uh is a thing. Oh, I'll leave you guys with this. So I'm not gonna talk about the politics of it, because of course we don't do that, but I learned a phrase yesterday uh that was in the news.
+
+[1:09:32] Free chicken. Free chicken. Wait, and I was like, that well, you weren't tuning into the news? I was not tuning in. Remember, remember Vindman?
+
+[1:09:44] Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Vinman. So he says that in the military, when you get something for free that you didn't even ask for, but you kind of want, you just call it free chicken. How awesome a phrase is that? Free chicken.
+
+[1:09:58] I'm just gonna use that for everything now. It's like, oh, it's because I normally I'm like, oh, gravy. Who would say no to some free chicken? No one says, well, you know, vegetarians, but like sure, sure, but you know, but like, it's like usually I say, hey, it's gravy, you know what I mean? But somehow free chicken is more like, cause the thing, because gravy, you still need to have something else.
+
+[1:10:14] No one's gonna go to the game. Eat it with a spoon. Yeah, yeah. No, no, like that's the thing. You're like, oh, that gravy.
+
+[1:10:25] You're like, wait, what the hell does that even mean? Like free chicken, you could do something with. You know what I mean? Anyway. Well, Ariel, thanks for being on the show.
+
+[1:10:35] Thanks for having me. It's always uh it's always a highlight. Uh we'll look forward to your input on this next season of uh of Goody. And uh let us know uh more about the book and we'll talk soon. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:10:50] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network.
+
+[1:11:13] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:11:34] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I'm Lisa Hald, a food journalist and podcast host, presenting Behind the Label with American Humane. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This week on Meet and Three, we're spotlighting the people who prepare our meat before it reaches our plates.
+
+[0:26] We hear from whole animal butchers, the brains behind a meat vending machine, California cattle ranchers, and a master of charcuterie who isn't using meat at all. It's like a smoked and grilled uh center stock of the broccoli, and then it gets uh finished with some mustard barbecue sauce and sauerkraut. Ranching and farming being as difficult as it is. You know, it's just one thing after another. And at some point you just give up.
+
+[0:54] I had a wild idea that if I learned butchery, maybe I could start to be kind of a link in the supply chain. Listen to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah.
+
+[1:30] We got uh John, uh customer service uh extraordinaire for Booker Index, uh coming to you from the Murray Hill there. How you doing? Not too bad, thanks. Got Matt in his Rhode Island booth. All good?
+
+[1:43] There we go. Yeah, yeah. And uh joined by joined by today's special guest, which uh with no further ado, we'll I'll talk about why we're late in a second. But uh like there is no good excuse, but I'll tell you what happened anyway. Uh we have uh from Kitchen Arts and Letters uh coming back on the show for his second appearance.
+
+[2:03] Matt Sartwell, how are you doing? I'm well, thank you. Appreciate having you back. Yeah, well, it's great to have you back. You know, I like we had to have you back though for a specific reason.
+
+[2:12] Uh I'm gonna just tell you, folks who I don't know, if this is your first time tuning in or whatever, Kitchen Arts and Letters is the like, well, I'm gonna put it this way, it's the best cookbook store I've ever been in. I will say without any hesitation, it is at least the premier cookbook store in the United States, right? Uh I have been to a decent, a good cookbook store in Edinburgh, really good. I will say Kitchen Arts and Letters is a better cookbook store. Now, I have not been everywhere on Earth.
+
+[2:47] So I can't say that it is the greatest cookbook store on Earth, just because I haven't been everywhere on Earth. But you get my point. Kits and Arts and Letters is the store for cooks, people who like food, even if you're tangentially interested in food. And the reason to go to Kitchen Arts and Letters and not somewhere else, is because not only is it a store full of books, it is a store full of people who know about the books. And I know a lot of people know about books, but the way Kitchen Arts and Letters knows about cookbooks the way you know about your best friends, the way you know about like the family stories of your best friends.
+
+[3:25] And that is the reason because a cookbook is so much more enjoyable when you can hear the history behind it, when you when you know about it. You're not just getting random opinions from people on the internet. It's uh it's just it's like uh a treasure that needs to be preserved. And it's it's in the it's a it's uh on Lex in the in the 90s, what is it between 90, what is it, between 90. Between 93 and 94.
+
+[3:51] 93 and 94, right. So it's like if you're walking in between the two subway stations, you gotta choose whether you're gonna get out at 86 or at 96, and then you gotta figure out whether you're gonna walk, because it's on that weird hilly area in Manhattan, right? It's on that weird, you're in that weird hilly zone. It's like the only hilly place in Manhattan. If you if you hate hills, get off at 86th Street.
+
+[4:11] All right. Hear that, folks? If you hate hills, I don't hate hills. If you hate hills, get off uh on 86th Street. Whoever's typing, stop typing or go on mute.
+
+[4:21] So uh Is that you, Dave? No. I don't even have a computer, Stas. The reason I'm late is because I was plugging in my Yeti blue microphone, which in order to make it look professional, it's like the size of a small truck. And then I was spinning it around because you can't plu you have to spin it around to plug in the USB, and I spun it around and it smacked my my brand new cup of espresso and shot my espresso against my like my my wife's white painted wall.
+
+[4:54] Remember, she's the architect, and then it splashed into my what I thought was a good idea, open frame computer, and zoop, zerched it. Like, like my computer smells great, like espresso, but it no longer is a computer. So after the radio show, I have to go like you know, hopefully it dries out. Nastasy was like, Well, you don't use milk or sugar. Milk is the real the real killer.
+
+[5:17] But you should you can't turn it upside down, right? Whatever you're talking about. No, no. I'm gonna let it dry out. I mean, like, I I honestly, it didn't fry the power, so whatever it did shorted something in the actual computer.
+
+[5:29] So I'm gonna let it dry for an hour or two, and then I'm gonna turn it on and pray. You know what I'm saying? Like that's basically all I can do. But like I had all of my questions for today, like all of my notes, everything. And it was like literally like, okay, now it's time to plug in the microphone and get on to get on to Zoom, and boom, gone.
+
+[5:51] Anyway. Uh so there's a coffee question that just came in in the chat. I can append it, I can sort of amend it. What type of coffee, how he made it and all that crap? No, no, no, it wasn't about that.
+
+[6:03] No. Well, was it? What was it? Is it short? Yeah, so what is your take on RO versus water softeners for coffee?
+
+[6:09] But I'm wondering, would either of them help you in your current situation? Look, if you're gonna use look, the point with coffee is is that you don't want your water like hyper hyper pure for coffee, right? So uh I mean it probably depends on exactly what kind of coffee you're gonna make, but just go get the books by Rao. By the way, uh Matt, and I said I have you on. What are your thoughts on the on the Rao coffee books?
+
+[6:33] Are those still the best? I have to say I have uh struggled to get them, so I'm not sure what availability is like. Oh, because he he why is he private publishing those? Uh I believe so. I have to go back and look.
+
+[6:47] It's been a while since I made that effort. Um you know, I uh I rely a lot on notes that I I bury and then have to go dig out for myself on all on sourcing all these things. Right. But I mean, not by the by the way, for best, what I mean is like technical stuff for people who are brewing and making espresso. Is he still, but is is he's is that still considered like the target that everyone shoots for if his work or no?
+
+[7:10] Is there a new target that people are shooting? I I don't think there's a newer better target. No. No. Okay.
+
+[7:15] Yeah. I mean, look, like like uh like back in the in the late 90s, early 2000s, I would say David Schulmer is the book to go to if you're interested in espresso or you know, uh Ely's uh The Chemistry of Quality, which has a lot on water in in it as well. Um, but um, yeah, I think you know, what we're talking about is probably better, but you you want the the right number of uh dissolved solids in your coffee. In fact, uh I forget which one of the which one of the Ely family I was dealing with. The scientist, the younger one, he's rich, so he dresses very fancy.
+
+[7:49] I met him and he had his nice Italian suit on at the Mandarin uh Oriental in New York. This was maybe a l 12, 13, 14 years ago. And I was like, I'm having trouble with my espresso. And he's like, the water here is not right for the perfect espresso. And that's because uh espresso, because uh New York water is famously soft.
+
+[8:09] So he was poo-pooing the entire concept of making espresso with the water that I have at my disposal. And here in New York we have some of the finest water you could get anywhere. Anyway, so like my point is is that I think RO, if your water is garbage, then go RO and then put stuff back into it. Right? What do you think?
+
+[8:29] Is that was that a decent answer or no? That sounds good. And he worked in the cookbook too, so there you go. There you go. There you go.
+
+[8:35] Yeah, but some of those books are hard to get, especially ones that like geeks go for and uh that are kind of self-published and or not distributed through normal channels can be a pain, right, Matt? Yeah, I mean, the one of the problems is that when people self-publish, they don't really think about anything other than what they're writing, and then the whole distribution channel thing is an afterthought until suddenly they have a thousand books in their garage and they wonder why uh they haven't sold them all yet. So uh yeah, I love to talk to people in advance. If you're thinking of self-publishing something, reach out to me, reach out to any local bookstore and and have that little talk about the best way to make that work because sometimes it's really way too arcane uh and uh to obtain self-published books. And I mean we carry like a thousand of them here.
+
+[9:22] It's not that we have a prejudice against them, but you've got to think about that kind of thing from the from the early days in order to make it work. All right, so here's a here's a question in specifically, well, before we get into the questions, uh why don't we talk a little bit? You have a you have a GoFundMe going now. Let's talk about the state of uh selling cookbooks in the COVID 2020 internet times. Well, I mean, the uh I I think the precise technical definition is that it that it sucked for uh uh for most of this year.
+
+[9:56] Um, you know, the the lockdown came in March, but people had been pulling their uh their horns in uh earlier than that in terms of visiting the store and so forth. So the year was off to a bad start, and then suddenly we couldn't be open anymore, and you know, for three months we had no no foot traffic. And we did, I mean, I I have to give this credit to the people who had been our longtime customers. We had a lot of great support through our website, but our website right now represents maybe 15% of what's in the bookstore. Uh so there was no way that its sales could keep up with uh uh with what we needed to do to cover rent and so forth.
+
+[10:38] I mean, it's a story that's familiar to to anybody whose business was affected by the lockdown, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you about that. Yeah. But for us, it just meant we were burning through through uh the cash we had on hand, and you know, I'm dancing around and negotiating with vendors and with landlords. Um I I managed to keep paying my people um because it was important to me to have them to rely on, and you know, once we were running, they were a terrific resource to have here in the store. But they just just there was no cash.
+
+[11:13] And um usually the fall is a huge season for us. We have all these big offsite events. We do the uh New York City Wine and Food Festival, we do the Star Chef Chefs Congress, we did the New York Times Food Festival, and then none of those things are happening this year. So there was no chance to get ourselves out of a hole, and our leases due for renewal. What are you at now and how much money you have?
+
+[11:38] Sort of you know hammered us at the same time. I mean, clearly we're not the only ones in the country facing that. But you know, I I was standing here looking around thinking, you know, could we you know shut this down and try to start over in a year? And there was no way that we could reassemble what we had here. There was no way that we could sort of um replace the the kind of nexus we'd become if we if we stopped.
+
+[12:08] Um and so I said help, you know, I I put the word out and um I'm blown away, I'm humbled by the way uh that uh that people have stopped up stepped up and backed us. It's been um incredibly gratifying and heartwarming. Um and now I feel like uh I I can't die because I have to do this forever for the people who are who are backed us. You do. In fact you do.
+
+[12:35] Now why don't you tell people how to get to your GoFundMe uh and we'll do it again at the end. Uh it's uh GoFundMe.com. Um you can just type in Kitchen Arts and Letters on the search bar or it's GoFundMe.com uh slash save kitchen arts and letters. Now um I uh we are as of about an hour ago, we were at uh about eighty-nine thousand dollars. Uh we uh initially set a goal of seventy-five and we hit it in two and a half days, um, which meant I was crying.
+
+[13:12] Um I raised it because um if we can put some extra stability under the store, uh if we can uh have a little more room to maneuver because God knows what you know next year and the year after that are gonna look like, then it's all for the better. I mean, one thing I know I'm gonna do is pour money into uh improving and vastly upgrading the website, which was already the plan for this year, and then you know, boom, that became impossible. So um we are out of the deepest pit and we're now sort of scrambling at the sides of it. Yeah. Now how like w g I'm sure you think about this a lot.
+
+[13:56] I mean, but i obviously you don't actually know what it's like to go to your store as a customer. I mean, some of the people who work for you do, I'm you know, that I know. But I mean, like to go as a customer, right? I mean how can how can how can you somehow give some of that experience of what it's like to be able to go ask questions in the store to people who can't visit the store like that's kind of this post-COVID or you know do you see this as is it possible this becomes an opportunity because what you guys have is so much more than a place where someone hands you money and you hand them a book you know well I mean that's I mean that's a really fair question. I mean it's one of the things that I'm trying to figure out for for the website because you know you come in here and ask us a question uh and sometimes you know it'll be a really easy question there's one obvious answer for it but at other times there isn't like a a dead on approach to the to the subject but there are all these tangential books that that together can help you get there.
+
+[15:00] And so you know you can come in and and suddenly one of us is running all over the store pulling books through five or different five or six different sections and saying oh but look at this chapter and check out this you know and maybe we don't always even know exactly where to look for it first but we know where to start the searching um and finding a way to do that on the web is is is the great challenge. Yeah great I uh yeah yeah yeah I've got one on one thirty yeah well let me let me give you let me give you guys a let me give the listeners who had never maybe been to the store an example like uh this is the so Kitchen Arts and Letters maybe this is a more succinct way of putting it, they are like research librarians of cooking, right? So, you know, in the way that you could go to in the way that you could go to the Schleshinger library at Radcliffe and you know, kind of go to their librarian who knows a lot, like Kitchen Arts and Letters is like a reference, like reference librarians for cookbooks that where you can actually then buy the book and take it out and own it, right? And I remember uh when I was writing for food arts, this is probably like 05 or something, 06, uh Jose Andres, somewhere around there, 07. Jose Andres had recently opened Cafe Atlantico at length in DC, and and uh Daniel Balud was opening a restaurant in Vegas, and planches were the hot new thing.
+
+[16:34] And Michael Batterbury, you know, my mentor who uh is the founder, one of the founders of food arts, uh, was like, you're gonna write about planches. There was no information on planches, right? There was not a lot on websites about planches. So you go up to Kitchen Arts and Letters and you're like, who's done Spain right? Who talks about planches?
+
+[16:52] And then they run around the store, as Matt said, looking for like all possible references to that. Or when I was tasked to write about charcuterie and there wasn't a lot, it's like picking and playing, and in fact, Matt was gonna do as a classics in the field today, because we'll get to that in a minute, cooking by hand, which until like the technical stuff came out, along with Jane Grigson's book, was like the place where you could like read at least a chapter by a great author on charcuterie. So whenever I had something to research, when I was writing an article, I would go to them first. And it's a lot better than you know, Wikipedia, you know, in terms of like get getting information, because as I say, you know, at Kitchen Arts and Letters, they often, they can't on everything, but they often have the backstory on how a particular book got written or why a particular book got written, or you know, where the where the author was at that time, which is helpful for a researcher or an author, or even just someone who's interested, you know. I mean, that's a that's a big part of the the pleasure for us is is sharing that background.
+
+[17:57] Um, you know, we we don't know everything about every book, obviously, but uh there are books here that we've you know we've known since they were uh an idea in somebody's head, and we've seen them get written and published and you know and win awards and prizes. Uh and we love talking to people about that. Yeah. So anyway, why don't we like uh John? Should we do a uh should we do a question or should we get oh I have a question for you actually that came in on Twitter, Matt.
+
+[18:26] Uh let me see. Uh you probably you can tell me whether you hate this kind of question or don't. Uh this is from uh Pavlo Pavlovsky wrote in what is the best cooking book of 2020 so far? Uh I hate questions like that. All right.
+
+[18:41] Um I hate almost any question that involves the word best. Um because what's best for me may not be best for you, Dave, or for somebody else. So our conversations are only that experience is who we're answering the question for. Um so uh it's just well let me ask you this. What is an overlooked what is an overlooked cookbook in 2020 that people need to go go search out?
+
+[19:12] Uh oh, now I'm on the spot. Uh some really fun and offbeat books that uh I was excited to see. Uh there's a little book, um and I'm gonna get the title wrong because I don't have it right in front of me, and it's uh uh it's long, but it's the proceedings uh of the first annual gathering of tomological explorers, people who find wild uh apple varieties uh along roadsides and in the the back of parking lots. Uh, because when apples uh germinate from seed, each apple is genetically distinct. And so the trees that come up are nothing like their parents.
+
+[19:57] Uh and so these varieties that are found in the wild can be something amazingly new and different from anything that they might be related to. And there are people who find them and and share them and start cultivating them and bringing them to market. And they gathered together up in Massachusetts last year, and and this little collection showcases about 66, I think, out of the 120 or so that were on display. Um so that would be high up on my list of interesting things. Um God, I can't even remember what year is what year.
+
+[20:35] Uh for rolling up your sleeves and and working. There was a book that came out early in the year called Carpatia on the food of Romania. This is a part of the world that gets like no respect from big mainstream publishing houses. Um this one came along and um I think gives an interesting tour. And then finally, um a newly published book called Parwana on Afghan food.
+
+[21:03] Um and again, I don't have the book in front of me, so I don't have the author's name to hand. Um her last name is Ayubi, A Y U B I. Uh she's an Australian whose family fled uh Afghanistan in the early 80s. And it is a gorgeously historical book. I mean, it's also beautifully photographed.
+
+[21:24] But the Afghan culture in that book is is a revelation uh for I think for anybody who didn't grow up in Afghanistan. All right, what was the name of that one? Carwana, P-A-R-W-A-N-A. And I'm also gonna check out that Romanian book because my wife's business partner is like Romanian Romanian, like from Romania, Chichescu era, like hardcore. Tough tough times there for a long time, but but uh the food is really interesting, and it's this crossroads location with lots of different influences out there.
+
+[22:00] Cool. All right, awesome. Uh now, you do do we wanna do a normal question or do we want to go straight to classics in the field, guys? What do you want? Classics in the field because you haven't done it in a long time.
+
+[22:11] All right, right. All right, right. Now, uh before we get into it, I have a question about a cookbook. See, this now this is what this is what I'm saying. Now, people, I have not predetermined this at all.
+
+[22:22] While I was doing research, before I fried my computer this morning, uh, a cookbook came through my my internet browser, and I have a question about it, and we have not figured I have not asked Matt whether he knows anything about it. So this is a dis not a test because but I'm just gonna see. Are you familiar with the Haka cookbook that came out like seven, eight years ago? Uh yeah, University of California Press, I think. Ding, see, see what I'm talking about, people?
+
+[22:47] Now here's why I'm interested. So the people that make the Sears all, which is our little uh handheld, you know, uh the bro the thing that turns a torch. Oh my god, Dave, can we talk about Amazon at some point? In a minute, in a minute, a minute. Like the Searsol is manufactured by a Hakka family.
+
+[23:03] That the people who run the factory are Hakka, which is uh like a very specific kind of group inside a uh of China, right? It's its own thing and they have their own cuisine. And whenever we go to uh China or often want to go to China, we'll go to a Hakka, we'll go to a Hakka restaurant, we'll have Hakka food. So um, so I was interested. Is the cookbook any good?
+
+[23:28] Like, is that is that a uh a should read? A you know, what do you what do you think there? I heard it doesn't have a lot of illustrations, but I don't need no, I don't think it has any illustrations. If there are, there's some line drawings. I I mean I haven't opened one in maybe a year or so.
+
+[23:39] Uh I think it's really strong. I mean, it's a really culturally interesting story uh about how this group of people has basically sort of been uh forced to migrate repeatedly within China. Uh they've managed to maintain a distinct uh culinary and cultural identity. The food is uh it was a tremendous linking for us, and it's related, but it doesn't seem like exactly like any other kind of Chinese cuisine. Uh I haven't cooked from it.
+
+[24:07] That's true of most of the books in the store, but we have really good uh strong feedback from our customers, and so I have a lot of faith in it. Yeah, yeah. See? See what I mean, people? Like that is the kind of information.
+
+[24:19] How are you gonna get that on the internet? You're gonna listen to like uh you're gonna listen to like uh like uh Joey Know Nothing on their on their Amazon review. We we'll get to that, we'll get to that later. Uh by the way. Talk about it first because that's our business.
+
+[24:31] Just no, no, no, no. I was gonna talk about Amazon reviews for books. What do you what do you want me to say about Amazon, the corporation? Uh what happened on Friday, because uh every? Because I've gotten emails from people asking how that's going.
+
+[24:44] How our relationship with Amazon is going. Because a lot of people follow us talking about it on the show. Our relationship with Amazon is that look, I've said this before, I'll say it again. Amazon, Amazon is good at if you need to return something to Amazon, like they're they're great for that, right? Like as a customer, like they're good.
+
+[25:06] As a vendor, it is a freaking nightmare. It is a freaking nightmare. So here's what happens. Amazon, right? Amazon is one of the larger importers of things because they do a lot of direct importing.
+
+[25:24] They import it. So this that's how the Sears all works, people. So we have it manufactured in China, right? And then it gets picked up in China by Amazon and then shipped on an Amazon contracted boat to the United States and then distributed to an Amazon warehouse. Amazon owns it.
+
+[25:44] As soon as it leaves, as in China, the possession goes from Booker and Axe to Amazon, right? Okay. Seems pretty clear, right? Now listen, question. When does Amazon check to make sure that we've given them the Sears?
+
+[26:00] Any guesses? Any guesses? Mat or Matt guess. How about in America? Ooh.
+
+[26:08] Ooh, that's interesting. Where in America? Like, I'm ordered at the port, but are you telling me it's like at some sort of like receiving place past the port? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Now, we hand Amazon pallets.
+
+[26:28] I hate to get too into the phone. Here's how this works, right? It's every Searsol in a box, every Sears all box with a label. This is even funnier. Over top of that label is another label with a different barcode because Amazon will have it no other way.
+
+[26:45] You need to have two barcodes, one with the item number that's the manufacturer barcode, and then you must have that, and then you must put another label over it with a second barcode that completely obscures the first. And if you can't do that, then they won't do business. And it takes too long to explain to you why, but that's just the truth. So every one of those individual steers all boxes is in a box that contains nine by nine by uh contains twenty-seven. Sorry, contains three by three by three Sears alls.
+
+[27:15] It's 27 to a box, right? Right? Okay. So you got 27 Sears alls in a box. That box has on it several barcodes and labels.
+
+[27:25] There are how many, uh, how many of those in on a palette, Stas? It's I actually got the real number. Three by three by five. It's it's eighteen, right? Isn't it 18?
+
+[27:34] But that we can talk about that later. Anyway, it doesn't matter. So it's we'll say it's 18 of those on a pallet and it's wrapped. And then that's what gets handed off. Now, there is no possible way, because of the cube shapes that everything is in, for us to like send three less than we said.
+
+[27:50] It just can't work. You know what I mean? It just there's no way the factory wouldn't know how to send three or four less, right? Anyway, so we say to Amazon, hey, okay, listen, why don't you check when we hand you the stuff to make sure we've handed you all the stuff so you can agree in China? In China.
+
+[28:09] Before it gets on your boat. Because what's happening is is that someone, not even at the port, but like at their warehouse, is scanning the stuff in unit by unit and saying that we're shorting them random numbers of units. It's usually a whole box of 27, but like random, right? And so we're like, we hand them the bill of lading, and they're like, which isn't work for us. And they're like, well, we we don't look at the bill of lading.
+
+[28:35] That's not we look at how many we have in the warehouse. I'm like, but but but but but but but you own them from the minute you took them in China, you put them on a boat for a month. And they're saying something's happening in the warehouse, and we're like, okay, but that's your warehouse. Your warehouse. I'm like, and Nastasi and I were like basic.
+
+[28:55] We got on that call with our representative from them. And then Dave before the call says, are we both going peshy? Or is one of us? Yeah, yeah. So we both went pesci on them.
+
+[29:07] I like, I was like, listen. Oh my God. And then Dave say what Dave said he's gonna put cigarettes out in his kid's eye. I was like, no, listen, listen, here's what happened. Like, the guy that we're dealing with is like, listen, this isn't my rules.
+
+[29:20] I'm like, I'm like, Amazon. I was like, first of all, I was like, in any basic drug deal, right? You test the drugs, and if if the person says open the suitcase, you open the suitcase, and the person says, count it. And then if you don't count it, it's on you. It's on you.
+
+[29:37] You count it when the deal happens, right? It's like it's Amazon is doing this. They're going to a grocery store, they're buying a whole bunch of groceries, they're putting it into their into their outback, and they're leaving the hatch open. And then they're driving over a dirt road for 55 miles, and then when they get there, they're like, half my groceries fell out. I'm not paying you.
+
+[30:01] Who the hell does this? You check when you do the deal. Yeah. Unbelievable. So then so Amazon, I'm can't I guarantee you that Amazon is making money hand over fist by doing this to people.
+
+[30:15] And they're just like, well, it's the price of doing business. Like they're gonna lose 26 boxes, and we can't force Amazon because they're the richest company in the world. We can't force them to count the stuff when they take it from us. So we'll just have to pretend that we lost it. We'll have to pretend it's us.
+
+[30:29] We'll have to get gaslit by Amazon because what else are we gonna do about it, right? And so uh I was I said to our guy, I shouldn't have said this. I was like, listen, I was like, the kind what you're doing is literally making a difference of whether or not I get to send my kid to a school or not. Like, this is like I was like, this is Nastasi and I, this is our whole business. I was like, this isn't like he's like, but we only shorted you 13 grand on this one order.
+
+[30:52] I'm like, you only shorted me 13 grand. See, by the way, people said that. He said that. There's an order, okay. Not to get too into nuts and bolts.
+
+[31:00] We have an order, 140,000 they owe us. And they come back and they're like, how about we give you 40? We're like, woo, ooh, what? Like, let's make a deal. It's crazy.
+
+[31:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. This reminds me of the time I was having a horrible surgery, and I won't even I won't get into it. But I was in, let's just say, a compromised position, and unfortunately not knocked out. So it's the most invasive personal space invasion, like horror show, Pierre Passolini movie kind of thing you could possibly imagine. And while they were doing this procedure to me, this is years ago, the doctor talked about nothing else but how the insurance company was basically doing the same thing to him, basically saying they were gonna pay him like 30 cents on the dollar for what he was owed.
+
+[31:44] And I had all kind of cameras and needles in all kinds of bad places. Every orifice. It was like it was like a horror porn for for it was the worst. Anyway, that's what it's like. Because they're like, how about we give you 40?
+
+[32:01] And then like the only 13 grand we're shafting you. I was like, oh, dude. So I said to him, I was like, buddy, I was like, may you someday be rich enough, may we all be rich enough that we can, you know, basically put out cigarettes in the eyes of our enemies, uh children and not worry about it, not have any repercussions. And he was like, oh geez. Yeah, silence.
+
+[32:21] I was like, I was like, because that's what Amazon is doing. Yeah. Amazon's putting out a cigarette in my kid's eye. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it's does.
+
+[32:30] Is that not what Amazon is doing to us? Yes, yes. They're walking up, oh yeah, Booker, you you need special uh education? Here, cigarette, boom, in the eye. That's what they're doing.
+
+[32:41] Now you also need eye surgery. Hope you have money. I only shorted you 13 grand. Yeah, anyway. Uh, so that's what we're doing with the Amazon right now.
+
+[32:51] Enjoy. So uh back to uh classics in the field, Matt. Sorry about that uh slight digression. Yeah. Uh well, yeah.
+
+[33:00] Um, Amazon horror stories. Yeah, yeah. Produced by Heritage Radio Network for Springer Mountain Farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified Label really means. We're looking inside the farm certification process, beginning with the moment a farmer expresses interest in becoming American Humane Certified, all the way to a consumer seeing the seal on store shelves.
+
+[33:49] And American Humane is our country's first national humane organization founded way back in 1877. Now we certify nearly one billion farm animals each and every year. Despite that growth, uh roughly 90% of U.S. farm animals are still raised without the benefit of independently verified science-based standards. Subscribe to Behind the Label with American Humane wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[34:25] So what do you get? What do you got for classics? Let's go to something a little more fun. A little less On a happier note. This is a giant uh almost 800 page reference book that came out in 2001.
+
+[34:46] And it covers very broadly speaking about 130 different vegetables. Um even more impressive when you consider that she doesn't really talk about things like potatoes and tomatoes, which are uh there are so many varieties of those that if you once you start talking about them, they become entire books on their own. Um, and this is a big sprawling reference book. It is um written from the point of view of somebody who's or for the point of view of somebody who's making a living in some way off these items. Uh it talks about how to find them, what kind of growers to look for, what a good one is like, um how it became cultivated and grown in the United States.
+
+[35:37] Um it talks about uh everything from the qualities of the flesh and how it's typically cooked to how well it keeps. Um and it covers you know familiar things like broccoli and turnips, but also banana buds and something called horseradish tree, and uh something else that's known as New Zealand spinach or tetragonia. And the woman who wrote it, Elizabeth Schneider, had years before uh co-authored a book called Uncommon Fruits and Vegetables, uh, and this was an outgrowth of that, an even more in-depth approach. Um it is full of uh information. There are recipes that she developed, there are notes on how chefs all over the country prepare these things.
+
+[36:28] And I think for anybody who's uh who's making a living in food, it's pretty goddamn useful. Tell me ask you a question. Sure. Let's say uh compare this with the uncommon vegetables. For those of you that have for those for those that have one, or like maybe is the other one still are is it worth getting both, or are like are they different enough?
+
+[36:49] Or they are they are pretty different. I mean, uncommon fruits and vegetables came out um middle eighties. Uh so a lot of the things that are in that book uh had become a lot more common. Um and they aren't so surprising. Um of course it's also got fruits, which are not a really a component of vegetables from Emmer and Suzucini.
+
+[37:12] Um vegetables from Emer and Suzucchini is also attempting to be more comprehensive. You can find familiar things in there, um, but it's also got those oddball things. Um Elizabeth Schneider uh made her living for a long time consulting with growers about what it was that chefs and restaurants were going to be interested in using in the coming years. Farmers would come to her and say, hey, what should we be planting? What are people talking about that uh they might want to be using more of?
+
+[37:46] So uh she she was uniquely plugged into um uh a mix uh of users and and providers that almost nobody else at the time could replicate. She's pretty much retired now and not not writing, but um at the time that this came out, it was uh it was really um essential, and I don't think anything has come close to replicating its importance. Well now, and speaking of like at the time, so this book came out in 2001, right? Yes, yeah. So I think a lot of uh like one thing that I hate to see, especially with uh younger readers, right?
+
+[38:29] Is this uh they can't they can't properly judge a book for when it was written and get the timeless nature of what was written, and also an understanding of what was commonly known when something was written, and therefore they can't get the full enjoyment out of a book that was written 19 years ago just because they can't get the right mindset. Do you see that happening a lot? Or you know, do you have anything to kind of say about that? I I think we do sometimes encounter that. I I also think that at least here in a in a conversation with people, we can usually make the case very strongly about why we might think an older book is still the more recent thing.
+
+[39:09] I mean, this book established itself as a uh as a pretty irreplaceable reference. And I, you know, the fundamental nature of uh bitter melon or or ramps uh hasn't changed in 20 years. Um there are you know, for some cultivated uh widely cultivated vegetables, there are new varieties on the market, but the basics aren't gonna change. And and a book like this, which represents the work of essentially a lifetime. I mean, there aren't that many people who are gonna blow their lifetime on looking up and uh studying vegetables for you.
+
+[39:49] You just said she ruined her life. You just said she blew her life. You know, I I uh fair. I I think that authors sometimes do that for themselves. They they pour themselves into a project.
+
+[40:04] Um I mean, she's brilliant, smart, beautiful woman. But uh yeah, this was this sort of um she finished this and she sort of gasped and sat down and uh and has rested since. Yeah. So let me uh this is why I hate Amazon reviews. So here's a one-star review uh on that book saying, uh my expectation for this book was to provide the basics on each vegetable, especially in relation to cooking with some more expanded or extensive info added.
+
+[40:33] But for many vegetables, this was not included. All right, one star. That's one star. I thought it was going to be the basics of vegetables, but it wasn't one star. Jerks, why can't these people just why can't the kind of person who writes that review just instead stop sucking wind, stop being a waste of space.
+
+[40:51] You know what I mean? I uh I I don't think Amazon's the only place where that happens. Yeah, I have I have seen some pretty astonishing reviews on Amazon for books that I think are are extraordinarily fine. Um it tells you a lot about you know as much about the reviewer as it does about the book. Yeah.
+
+[41:10] The other issue, like I say about kind of what what I was getting at with the kind of newness, wanting new stuff, is like uh let's say someone had written a book on rum 10 years ago, right? They could have spent their entire life on rum, and it still wouldn't really have a section on Clarent, right? You know, from Haiti, like uh the cane stuff from Haiti. So then, like someone who's just getting into it and getting all the information like, well, it can't be good because it doesn't even include Clarent. You know what I mean?
+
+[41:38] Like that kind of an attitude, I think people need to mentally, mentally kind of erase. Do you know what I mean? Because it's just I think it's unhelpful. And I worry about this when I'm writing too. Like, how can I write I know that some of the information that I'm giving now is going to be dated.
+
+[41:52] I know that people are gonna do a lot of work and that things will be superseded and and other things, but like a great writer, and I haven't read this uh yet. I remember I I was going to get the copy of this book and I never did. Um but uh like a great writer, you you read them even though you might have some new information. There might be more things available now than were available in 2000, because there clearly is. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[42:20] But I think your life's going to be much richer if you can if you can kind of because that the spirit of the writer doesn't really age. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? It does. And I think the other thing that people sometimes have gotten out of the habit of doing is is you know, because we're so used to going online and like entering a phrase and getting a quick answer to a question, is is doing the critical reading that sort of says, you know, what is this source, where is it coming from, when did it occur, what are its limits going to be, what is it gonna tell me that people have stopped paying attention to?
+
+[42:56] Because often that is just as interesting as what is really sort of suddenly coming into the spotlight. Um and so you the well, I I could go on about this for a long time. Perfection is an illusion, it's a lie. And if you search for it and expect it, you will always be disappointed. So what you do is you find something that's great, even if it's not perfect, and you celebrate what's great about it, and you don't get stuck on thinking that one place is all the answers, and you're happy with that ambiguity.
+
+[43:34] Right. All right. So that book was Vegetables from Amaranth to Zucchini, the essential reference. Anyway, 500 recipes. And you can and you have copies of that available of Kitchen Arts and Letters?
+
+[43:44] We do, absolutely. It is a big sprawling book, and we love to talk about it. What is that? What is that uh was that guy go for? It is $70.
+
+[43:51] It is, like I said, the work of a lifetime and uh and the price shows. Also, I'll have you know, I just looked it up, same price on Amazon. So why would you ever buy it there? Why would you do that? Anyway.
+
+[44:03] That's a fair question. Yeah. Um, all right. Now you wanted to, uh you were gonna do some Patience Gray as well, right? Yeah.
+
+[44:10] Um, so on a completely different direction. Uh Honey from a Weed by Patience Gray is a book that came out in in 1986. Um, it's a really interesting story. Patience Gray had been a very a successful author of sort of a big mainstream uh cookbook in in Britain, and this is sort of like, you know, the pioneer woman throws up her former life and goes off to live on a mountainside. Um she fell in love with a sculptor, and she spent many years traveling around the Mediterranean with him to places where uh he could find the stone that he wanted to work with.
+
+[44:51] Um so they were in Tuscany, they were in Catalonia, they were on Naxos, which is one of the Greek islands, and they ended up settling in a puglia. Um and she writes about the food that she learned to cook in all these places, uh, and not you know, from famous restaurants and notable chefs, but but from the neighbors, because most of the time they were um living in unheated huts um in no no, sort of on the edge of a quarry, and the closest people were subsistence farmers. And they learned to cook very seasonally, they learned to cook with sort of a minimum of ingredients that didn't come from within 10 miles. Uh and she says very early on that good cooking is the result of a balance struck between frugality and liberality. So, you know, using your ingredients as carefully as you can, but when they're, you know, when something comes on and then it's in season, you go wild with it and you do all that you can.
+
+[45:54] It's a book with an astonishing personality. Um she had a sort of sense of mysticism that wouldn't really fit necessarily with uh say the people that modernist cuisine. Um it would be fascinating to see Nathan Mirgold and Patience Gray talking to each other. But um it's it's a book with really powerful senses of places and a um and an amazing versatility with almost nothing to hand. And this is also the 80s.
+
+[46:32] She's writing this in the 80s. This came out in 86. Yeah, it's still in print after after all these years. Um it's uh it became sort of a legend. People would make pilgrimages to see her.
+
+[46:44] Uh she spent the like the last 25 years of her life in uh uh in Apulia, literally in a in a in a home without heat. You ever meet her? I did not. She did not leave Apulia, I think uh in the last 25 years of her life, and I I never made it there. I knew people who'd met her, people like um Alan Davidson uh and Ed Baer, who had who had traveled there and met her, but I never did it.
+
+[47:11] Well, Al Alan Davidson was the one of the reasons she started doing cookbooks, right? Or publishing them anyway. She was writing, but wasn't he? By the way, and speaking of classics in the field, I don't know if we ever did his stuff, but his seafood series, he's an ex was an ex-diplomat, and then also like an amateur, uh, whatever you call a fish person, ichthyologist or whatever it was, and then started writing all of these books on seafood, which are also classics in the field, correct? Exactly.
+
+[47:37] His first one was a book on the fish and fish dishes of Laos, which he started writing when he was the British ambassador to Laos. And that's an all-time classic, right? It is. And I mean, there's I mean, there's nothing else in English that even comes close to touching that. But he expanded that into a book on the seafood of Southeast Asia.
+
+[47:53] There was one on uh Mediterranean seafood and one on Seafood of the North Atlantic. And they have all flickered in and out of print, but any of them is is worth picking up if you have any interest at all in them in a really careful, precise seafood book. No photographs. If you have to have pictures, you are SOL, but the written content is astonishing, and the drawings are really helpful. So what was the connection there between Patience Gray and Davidson?
+
+[48:21] He was just to publish. He was he uh how he had started he had started a publishing company called Prospect Books, which was an offshoot of a magazine that he had founded with Elizabeth David called uh Petit Proculinaire, PPC. Uh, and Prospect Books uh was published or was founded to publish the the completed scholarship that PPC was publishing excerpts of. Um, and they were gathering together interesting people. Um they had a friend in common, uh a man named Irving Davis, who uh was living in Catalonia at that point.
+
+[48:57] Uh Patience Gray writes a lot about him in Honey from a Weed. He was sort of uh black sheep, libertine uh iconoclastic uh British expat who had I think had to flee Britain and couldn't go back for reasons I was never quite clear on. And uh, but he made a lot of friends in in Catalonia, uh, entertaining people who came through and being passionate about the local Catalonian food. So he met Gray while she was living there, and he connected her today with some. Yeah, cool.
+
+[49:33] You know, I have a galley of honey from the weed that I got at the Strand in the 90s. Whoa. Yeah. I've never seen one of those. Well, so here's the thing.
+
+[49:42] I went to go look for it, uh, and I I must have it in storage. I gotta go, I gotta go find it. It's uh it's like a light green, you know how galleys are in that that horrible like oak tag like uh cardstock. Yeah, uh yeah, with like a line drawing on it. If I find it, I'll I'll give it to you so you can see the difference.
+
+[50:02] If it won't when I find it, I'll I'll in fact, that was one of the ones I know it didn't get pitched in one of my many recent movings because the way this whole classics in the field started, to remind those who have no idea, is I have a lot of books that one might consider to be unusual or random. And when we're going through which ones we're going to de accession because we don't have any space because we live in New York, uh my wife would be like, What about this one? This looks useless. I'm like, that is a classic in the field, and that's how it started. We have a lot of conversations like that here.
+
+[50:37] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, um classics in the field. See, if I find it, I'll uh I'll I'll just send it to you so you can see what the Yeah, I'd be just even even just a photograph. I'd be fascinated to see how they did that. I didn't even realize Prospect was doing galleys back in the day.
+
+[50:52] Yeah, and furthermore, I bought it just based on the title. I had no idea who she was, and I don't know if for those of you that never been to the Strand, this was before the Strand had air conditioning, and you would go in the basement, which is a hellhole, and they'd have this section that was called those galleys, and some would be galleys and some would so there's different kinds of like there's there's proofs and galleys, like some are paperbound, some look like the finished book, but aren't. And so like and they were all a dollar no matter what it was. And 99% of what they had down there was stuff that had just come out. So what happens is is that the publishing house sends out a bunch of these things to people so that we can review them, and then they offload them on the strand, strand sells them for a dollar.
+
+[51:40] Anyway, uh so to find one that was at the time probably 12 years old was quite rare. So I that's one reason I picked it up. And but her writing is just great. You know what I mean? It's it's vivid and and crisp and um she I mean she doesn't give you recipes like you know, like you would find in uh in a standard modern cookbook.
+
+[52:03] They're they're like one of her neighbors probably explained the whole thing to her. Yeah, yeah, but she's a good she's a very evocative writer, like makes you like makes you want to go on a journey with her in the way that like I think MFK Fisher does. Although do people still like MFK Fisher or no? People still love her or no? I think they do.
+
+[52:23] I mean, I think it's um it's easy to overdose on MFK Fisher. Uh my suggestion is read a little bit at a time and come back when you're ready. Don't don't binge read or you'll um you'll lose your taste. Yeah, yeah. All right, nice.
+
+[52:41] Like muscles. Uh Yule Gibbons, Yule Gibbons, uh now John, you'll disagree with me. By the way, the sculptor she was married to is Belgian, John, you might be happy to know. Uh and uh and I know a Belgian never loses his taste or her taste for muscles, but Yule Gibbons, uh, one of my favorite foraging writers ever, uh, says, muscles are great, but if you're living on a coastline and all you got is muscles, you will tire of them very, very quickly. So MFK Fisher is the great, the the muscle like great writer, I guess, is what you're saying, Matt.
+
+[53:14] Yeah, yeah. You can dip in and out, read a chapter. She's she's meant to be read by chapters. Do it that way. I think the thorns are also like that.
+
+[53:23] Matt and um the uh the other one. And John. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, John is he's a newsletter writer. Um he writes in those kinds of those kinds of doses.
+
+[53:34] Um and yeah, I I think there are there are a lot of people who who are really best read that way. And you you know, you pick one, pick a book up and you you read a chapter and and enjoy it, and you come back to it in a couple of weeks or or a month or whatever, and and it feels fresh and appealing again. But if you, you know, it's like I like whipped cream. If I you fed me five bowls of whipped cream, I probably wouldn't like it anymore. No, I'm not with you there.
+
+[54:01] I could eat a non finite amount of whipped cream. I mean, whipped cream is my favorite foam. I like I love it a lot. So the the thorns, what's that? What's that uh the best known compilation they have?
+
+[54:12] What's it called? Like pig and a poke or something like that? What's it? Uh well, simple simple cooking. That was the name of uh John's newsletter that he wrote for many years, uh starting, I believe, when he lived in the in the East Village.
+
+[54:24] Um and there were four other books. They're erratically available at this point. But Simple Cooking is the is the one that sort of represents what made him what brought him to people's attention. What's the one with a pig on the cover? Soft cover kind of serious pig.
+
+[54:46] Serious. Was that okay? That's like the third book, I believe. Is that the one with main beanhole cooking in it where he describes how to do beanhole cooking? I would have to look on that.
+
+[54:56] Yeah, been a long time. Been many years, been many, been many years. All right. So then you have one last one that you wanted to do uh with Madeline Kammon, right? I wanted to also ask you about her.
+
+[55:07] Why don't you talk about that one? So uh this is a book called When French Women Cook. Uh it's a book that first appeared in 1976. And it's a memoir with recipes that also is sort of a sneaky French regional cookbook. Uh she's she was born in Paris uh before the uh Second World War.
+
+[55:29] Uh because of the war, her family moved around a lot during and after the war. Uh, and she continued to move around um until she left Paris or left France in the I think about 1960. Um each chapter is about a different woman in a different part of France. Um, and she's giving you, I think, an amazing sense about uh the character of of French cooking in in many forms. Some of these are, you know, are essentially domestic servants who were employed by her family.
+
+[56:08] One of them is a great aunt who actually had a Michelin-starred restaurant. Um, and she's she's really paying tribute to these women and providing a sense about what French food was. Uh 40s, 50s, 60s, well, 40s and 50s really, I guess, because she left in 1960. Um, and she really does give you a sense about how um how varied the cuisine it is. It's it's one of the losses in current American uh food publishing.
+
+[56:41] That uh if you want a French regional book, you you have like a ton of choices for Provence, a lot of choices for the Southwest, and pretty much the rest of the country is forgotten. Um I don't know if it has to do with you know where people go on vacation or or whatever it is. But you know, if you want a book on the food of Normandy or the food of Alsace, you're you're gonna have to go out and uh and find something that was written a long time ago. But this book is is is currently available. Um I think it's quite lovely.
+
+[57:16] Uh Madeline was um, she's still living, but she's not doing anything food related at this point, uh, but highly revered uh as a cooking teacher. She uh she ran several successful restaurants. Uh she has been vilified in certain recent publications for um uh not fully appreciating, shall I say, uh Julia Child, um, and there was definitely uh some conflict there. But you know, over the years I met her numerous times. She was insatiably powerfully curious.
+
+[57:54] She was restless and never satisfied with anything. Um, and I think that always shows up in her books. I think we talked about her a little bit the last time you were on but what what why did she why did she redo her masterwork towards the end of her active career and like so horribly mangle it. Well I don't know that I would say that she horribly mangled it. I think she got in uh she fell down the rabbit hole uh when she started to do some revisions and updating based on things that she had learned.
+
+[58:31] What makes you feel that she horribly mangled it she she she bought into what was at the time so what was this 15 16 years ago when it came out I can't remember. Maybe even longer than that. I would say mid nineties so yeah so she bought into like mid-90s like health garbage and so then like redid like debuttered and like redid everything with what was oh coron at the time health knowledge and I would rather just have her actual knowledge you know what I mean like or like her actual like the spirit of what she was doing I don't know I was just I was disappointed by what appeared to me to be like a pasting on of the new onto what was otherwise a masterwork. That's all I I take your point there. That yeah I sort of tend to to um just sort of let my eyes slip past some of that material.
+
+[59:26] I think it was typical of the time uh how much of that was was her and how much was her publisher. I I can't be sure. I mean, you know, uh it publishing is this incredibly trend-driven business, and you know, you can see it in um in food photography is as well as in subject matter. Um, and you know, it it probably seemed at that very moment that the book was being written, like absolutely essential to the way people understood food. Um it turned out to be wrong.
+
+[1:00:02] Like another another one, I think that it's not in the same way, but I mean, feel free to not want to comment on this, but uh you know, to me, one of the all-time classics is uh Peterson's sauce, sauces or whatever it's called. And I say go with the first edition. Go with the first edition, straight up. You know what I mean? Like, like full cream reduction, like that view into what was going on in the 90s when that was written, is like not to be matched.
+
+[1:00:29] And like the new one he added, I'm not gonna say he mangled his old work, but I mean, I just feel that the first edition the second edition doesn't top the first. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, I mean, I think they're uh he's actually on edition four at this point, I believe. But are they there was the one where they added all the modern techniques and stuff and like drastically expanded and took out a lot of the 90s style like double cream reduction sauces. Yeah.
+
+[1:00:57] Well, I mean, partly that's gonna be driven by what uh culinary schools may have been demanding, maybe not sort of the higher end schools, but some of the like the uh uh junior colleges and so forth scattered around the country, which can actually turn out to be a big market for books like that. Uh I don't know, I'd have to talk to to Jim about that in particular. Uh it's still a good book, don't get me wrong, but it's just like that the first one that I had the black cover, that one is like was a revel. When I read it, I was like, oh my God, I love this book. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:01:32] Well, I think that goes back also to um to what you were saying about being aware of when a book comes along. Uh and you know, it may definitely represent sauces that are not commonly used anymore, but as a as a piece of reference, as an access to technique into a world in which people did things a certain way, it's unparalleled. Um and and having the knowledge of that allows you to go off and do other things that may not have been happening when the book was first published, but you've got the tools to uh to build new things. So that's why I would say don't you know don't dismiss a book just because it's old. All right.
+
+[1:02:16] So listen, we we're out of time, right, Stas? Oh yeah. Yeah. So uh how about this? We'll answer any questions that we didn't do this week, we'll do we'll do next week.
+
+[1:02:28] If any of you have any pressing questions, then you know, maybe I'll try to answer them over Twitter to send them in or whatnot. Uh otherwise, when is the when is the GoFundMe over? You want to give Kitchen Arts and Letters, by the way, is the store we're talking about. We've had Matt Sartwell on doing uh his classics in the field, giving you know some of his rich knowledge. And you could do this all day, and literally if we could still have call-ins, you guys could call in and pepper him with questions left, right, and you know, pretty much he'd knock him out of the park every time.
+
+[1:02:59] So please go to the GoFundMe. Um and you know, add more, even if they've made their goal. Like help them, help them not. So earlier in the show, Matt said that they had dug out of the deepest pit and now they're just in some sort of basement. So they just need to be able to do chin-ups out of the basement.
+
+[1:03:18] But let's get them like up on the ground floor, and then maybe even like a little bit of a porch or a deck to stand on. All right. So why I'd love a deck. Yeah, yeah, deck. We're not asking for we're not asking for skyscrapers, people.
+
+[1:03:30] A deck. A deck. So uh yeah. A deck and a little sunshine. There you go.
+
+[1:03:38] Uh so um, you know, also like, you know, let's have you back on maybe after the GoFundMe is over, or you know, some more classics, and then, you know, if we ever get back to normal again, such that people can call in and ask you questions. Cause really, like, that's the that's how people are going to experience what it's like. Well, I remember I tossed you the random Haka question earlier. Like, that's what it's like dealing with them. So let's preserve Kitchen Arts and Letters for a long, long time.
+
+[1:04:04] Um, thanks for coming on, Matt. Uh as usual. Well, thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it. All right.
+
+[1:04:11] Uh, this has been Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:04:26] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:04:48] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Roberta's, home of Heritage Radio Network for 10 years. Learn more about Robertas at RobertaSPizza.com. Hi there, I'm Yom, host of Item 13, an African food podcast. I am excited to be joining the Heritage Radio Network this year as we kick off our fourth season of the podcast. On item 13, we cover all aspects of the African food ecosystem.
+
+[0:33] You will hear West Africans squabble over who has the best jolof. Newsflash, it's Ghana. It's time to celebrate Agile. Like we're done with comparing who and who didn't want. And Jolof is not just about even the rice, it's about the protein that goes with it.
+
+[0:48] Guests share their expertise on African food ingredients and spices. This is a region where, you know, even if you look at 18th century maps, you know, you had something called the pepper coast. Fresh and aromatic peppers. That is what distinguishes West Africa. Tips on marketing food businesses.
+
+[1:10] A good way to engage your audience is to take them on that journey. You know, get them talking about this idea you have. That way you are engaging them, they are engaging with each other, and you're getting useful insights that you can then pull from and use to develop your recipe. This season, my goal is to focus on more stories outside of English speaking West Africa. So you will hear stories from Benny from Uganda, Liberia, and even Haiti.
+
+[1:38] You will also hear us discuss the impact of the Black Lives Matter movement and how COVID-19 has impacted some of the businesses featured on the show. You can catch up now on previous episodes of item 13 wherever you listen to podcasts. And join us this season as we debut on HRN. Thank you and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold Cooking Issues coming to you.
+
+[2:18] From Brooklyn, actually today. On the Heritage Radio Network. Got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Fine.
+
+[2:25] You're back in Stanford? Yes, I am. Yeah, we got John also in Brooklyn. How you doing, John? Doing swell.
+
+[2:32] Yeah, so like I'm hoping I did a slightly abbreviated intro today. Hey Matt, you see you uh yeah, you're back in Rhode Island, right? Back in Rhode Island. All right. I did a slightly abbreviated intro because we are in a co-working space, and I didn't know how much crazy screaming cooking issues I could do before they would revoke our membership.
+
+[2:53] But uh John and I are here trying to go through the last of the spinzalls that we're turning into parts to help uh help you folks out uh who need parts for their spinzalls. And just as you know, John is going to be away next week, so there will be no customer service next week, right, John? Correct. So get on your emails between now and Friday, and I'll take care of what I can. Yeah, otherwise you will have to wait a week in order for us to answer your.
+
+[3:23] You're gonna get one of those uh auto pop ups out of office. Yeah. What if we just said something that was just like, uh, sorry, we're toast, we don't exist anymore. Goodbye. Something like that.
+
+[3:35] People people wouldn't have a sense of humor about it, I don't think. Anyway. Probably not. Uh, probably not. So, Nastasia, I'm intrigued.
+
+[3:42] I got a photograph from uh Nastasia. Well, she was in New York last night because we were in New York last night. She was in New York last night because we were doing a pop-up at at Wild Air. So that's Jeremiah Stone and Fabian Von Howski, who I call, of course, fabulous and have because I've known him since he was like 18. Uh it's, you know, one of their restaurants.
+
+[4:05] And so we did a Booker and Dax pop-up. Jack Shram came and we mixed a bunch of drinks. And I thought it was fun, right? People enjoyed it. Yeah.
+
+[4:14] I think people really liked it. There was a line down the block. Sold out of everything. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:19] Yeah. Yeah. Full, fully socially distanced, all you know, according to rules and everything. I thought it was good. So they they made one of my favorites.
+
+[4:27] They made uh so when when Wild Air opened, they did this. I'm pretty sure it's gluten gluten-free, actually, but they did this uh squid, like this squid fried squid. It's not tempura, it looks like tempura, but it's not because it's actually crunchy, whereas we all know that tempura won't stay crunchy that long, where this stays crunchy a long time, like fried lemon slices and like a squid ink, um, what would you call that? Like a mayonnaise, like a naoli, what would you call that? It was an aioli, yeah.
+
+[4:56] Yeah. So then uh, but then I was like, oh, you gotta bring that back because that was one of my favorites. Not that I got to eat anything. Did you guys get to have the food? I had a little bit.
+
+[5:08] I had a piece of this. It was good. They sold, yeah, they sold out pretty fast. So then I had literally just been saying to someone that I think that the cuttlefish, even though it's camouflage is great, that it's definitely of the three, a third tier cephalopod, right? And then Jeremiah's like, surprise, we're doing a squid, but we're doing it with cuttlefish.
+
+[5:27] I'm like, cuttlefish for real? It was good. It was really good. I enjoyed it like it. But in general, my feeling is that you could be a squid person or you could be an octopus person, but like definitely those, like those are like the so like what do you guys think?
+
+[5:44] You agree with me or disagree with me? I know that Nastasia doesn't is not grooving on killing cephalopods at all now because they're friends, not food now in her mind, right? Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. But but you're more like uh that's by the way, that's a uh finding Nemo reference.
+
+[5:58] For those of you that have never seen Finding Nemo, that's a finding Nemo reference. There's a shark, a great white shark in Finding Nemo, who is trying to go vegetarian, and it's actually a group of sharks, and they keep on saying, friends not food, friends not food, trying to like not eat like you know, Dory and Nemo and all their friends. So um, but you're okay with killing cuttlefish, right? Because you don't care about them. No, you said that they're equally intelligent.
+
+[6:27] No, no, well, no, no, no. They're not equally intelligent. They're definitely dumber, but they're their camouflage is amazing. Like the cuttlefish have some of the most amazing camouflage abilities of uh of the cephalopods, but I think that they're definitely dumber. I mean, look, I think octopus is the smartest, right?
+
+[6:45] Or I should say the smartest octopus is by far the smartest invertebrate in the world. Like, like, there's no no comparison, right? Um, and then I would say like the smartest squid is underneath the you know the octopus, and then I would say cuttlefish, and then Nautilus is just a like a like a dumb bud. You know, a nautilus is just like a floating freaking shell thing. But no one eats nautiluses, do they?
+
+[7:12] Yeah, I have to look up nautilus. I don't know what that is. They have meat. No, that is just a shell. Well, I mean, I mean, there is a shell, but in order to produce a shell, there needs to be a meaty thing in it.
+
+[7:23] You know what I mean? Are you familiar with um Tyrion purple? No. No, no. Are you okay?
+
+[7:34] So uh I forget how I went down this rabbit hole, but like purple was a very expensive, uh, very expensive color back in the day. So purple was one of the very first synthesized aniline dyes. It was done in um England, and that's the color mauve was this synthesized dye in the 1800s that became very popular. Prior to that, purple was extremely expensive because a light fast purple that lasted a long time, like the the best dyes came from these snails, these murex snails that you know are in the Mediterranean. You crush these snails up, and it takes like a thousand snails to make like one gram of this dye, and that dye doesn't go very far.
+
+[8:15] That's why it's like royal purple, blah, blah, blah. So there's dye. Is it great purple, or is it like a blue that then gets changed into a purple? It's well, so it's not, it's not a an anthocyanin, it's a different thing. So it's not a in other words, it's pH stable, but like diff different species of this mirx style of snail um produce different colors, and those colors can range from red to purple to more bluish.
+
+[8:41] So for instance, like the the very specific blue thread that's supposed to be in um Jewish prayer shawls, uh, what's that dye called? Tech Techalet, I forget the name of it. That is also, even though it's blue and not purple, that is recently been theorized to be a murex uh snail dye as well, just treated in a slightly different way. But it all starts with, and apparently, if you really put your mind to it, you can milk these snails to get the dye out. But what in the real life, what happens is that you're not sitting around milking a snail, which is also how you get musk aromas, right?
+
+[9:19] They milk milk civic cats, which aren't cats, anyway, to get musk out. So, like, but no one milks the snails. What they do is they smash the snails up and they get they get the dye out. But it's fantastically expensive. So it's literally, I looked it up.
+
+[9:33] You can buy this dye now for you can get a quarter of a gram for like a hundred, a hundred and twenty bucks or something like that, or like more. It's like thousands of dollars a gram. It's freaking bananas. Anyways, and the thing is, is like I was kind of like, should I try to find something made with this like? No, no, no, no, why would wrong rabbit hole?
+
+[9:53] Anyway, but the point is that that guy was eating those snails. That's where we're going all of this, is that there's a guy in Lebanon right now making Tyrion purple, smashing up these snails, and then he has to sit around and think of recipes. He has to think of recipes where he can use all of these thousands of snails that he goes through to make this minute amount of dye that he has. And I'll give you one last little thing about these snails. Apparently, there is a passage in you know one of the volumes of the Talmud that says that uh if you marry a man and he all of a sudden decides to switch professions and he switches professions into a dye maker of Murek's dye, you're allowed to divorce him because he's gonna stank so bad.
+
+[10:44] Wait, what? So bad. Yeah. It's like grounds for divorce. He became he became a dime maker.
+
+[10:51] I mean, please, what am I supposed to smell like this forever? Come on. Come on. But you know, nowadays we live in a situation where, you know, like both both partners can, you know, work, you know, and do it. Like, I feel that's the kind of thing where you have to go in as a family business.
+
+[11:07] You can't be like, you know, the person coming home stanking of crushed up Murex snails all day. Yeah, if everyone smells that way, then you won't notice, it'll be fine. Yeah, it's like garlic at dinner. You know what I mean? Do you know what I'm noticing a lot?
+
+[11:24] Like, don't you hate how even if you don't eat the onion when you're slicing raw onions, the onion gets into your fingers, and then like you can taste it later on that evening, and when you brush your teeth, even if you haven't eaten it. So horrible. It's horrible, right? And I and I love that flavor and that smell in my food, but then when I like smell it on my fingers, it's so for like I hate that. And it's for it's forever.
+
+[11:54] It's it's like lasts forever. It's crazy. This is and and my problem with it is that I have to be careful because Jen, my wife, does not like raw onions, loves cooked onions, doesn't like raw onions. Like, so it's like, you know, I can't be, I can't be having raw onion fingers. I don't know, but what am I gonna sit there and like put gloves on at home to slice the raw onions?
+
+[12:17] I don't know, should I? I guess I should. I don't know. What are your thoughts on raw onions? Uh Stas?
+
+[12:22] I don't like I can't even. I told you they give me night. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I forgot. Yeah.
+
+[12:26] They give you nightmares. Wait, you're okay with cooked ones. Nightmares? Yeah. Raw onions give me.
+
+[12:30] I love pickled onions and I loved cooked onions, but raw onions can't do it. Whoa. Yeah. Also, move move your mic maybe slightly further away. That was a few.
+
+[12:41] Yeah. Well, yeah. Oh, uh one more thing before we get. Oh, so so then, so we did our pop-up. Uh, there was cuttlefish.
+
+[12:49] It was delicious. So I maybe temporarily take back my statement about cuttlefish being a third tier, uh a third tier cephalopod. Um, but Nastasia stayed over at a hotel. I'm I guess I'm sure it was fine. After we got in a huge fight.
+
+[13:08] Huge. Uh we did get in a huge fight. Uh, and you know, like like we do. Uh but when you got home today, what'd you see on the on the coast? Well, no, that I had it was has been there for a while, but I wanted to show you today.
+
+[13:22] But I have a blue lobster. Well, I mean, it's a blue lobster in several pieces now. Yeah. Was it ever whole? No.
+
+[13:31] It was like it was under a rock hole, and I picked it up, but the tail separated, and then the other the head and the claw, I had to dig out of the hole, and then that's that's what it is. Huge but it wasn't it wasn't alive at all, right? No, no. The tail had been eaten, and I had Peter Kim over, and he was like, Oh my god, somebody's eating, somebody's coming here with lobsters and like grilling them and eating them. I was like, Peter, I live on the sound.
+
+[14:00] You know, they used they used to be a like a pretty decent commercial fishery on the sound for lobster. I didn't know lobsters were out here though. And that one looks cool, right? It's like blue and old. Yeah, blue blue lobsters, very, very fancy.
+
+[14:14] No, there used to be a serious commercial fishery for lobster in the Long Island Sound. Um I forget why it declined, but you know, look, like the further north you go, the colder the water and the and the rockier the ground underneath, like the like those people all look down on us. So like Cape Cod people look down on Long Island Sound lobster, and then Maine lobster people like look way down on uh Cape Cod lobsters. So I remember I was in Maine once and I was taking this mail boat out, but I'm on this mail boat, and the mail boat is also the lobster boat, right? Because you you don't have just one job in you know in this part of Maine.
+
+[14:55] It's like, you know, I don't know, he's he's probably also the town magistrate or whatever, but he's a lobster fisher person. And by the way, you can't just become a lobster fisher person in Maine because when you put when you're when you're putting a lobster boat out, you put all your buoys out, and those buoys mark your traps, right? And when you put the traps out, um if someone like takes your trap, like takes it, that's like a shooting in the face offense. That's like a stab and burn, and you're like, why'd you stab that guy and light his body on fire? Oh, well, they cut my lobster trap.
+
+[15:30] I mean, uh, sorry, they stole my lobster trap, and you're like, okay, okay, fine, fine. You know, you're good. You know, I mean you're gonna get let off. But uh what they do do is that if you are a newbie, if Nastasia shows up in Maine, buys a lobster boat, goes and puts all of her little pots out with the buoys, they just come by and cut the buoys. They won't take the traps because for some reason that is against the code, but they will just cut your buoys straight off.
+
+[15:56] And so you have to like do it for like a couple of years before they're like fine and they stop cutting your buoys. That's how you have to do it to get into it. Anyway, so lobster guy, but I'm like, oh, I always just bump my sandwich in Cape Cod. He's like, oh yeah. I was like, oh, we used to get lobster a lot.
+
+[16:14] And he goes, mud bugs. And that's all he said to me for the rest of the trip. Because the Cape Cod lobsters are mud bugs to him because he has the hard bottom. He was like, he wouldn't even deign to talk to someone who was eating Cape Cod lobsters, which is I'm sure how the Cape Cod people think about the sound. And then if you go up to Nova Scotia, where like the fourshoe lobsters are, they're like warm water mean lobsters are the worst.
+
+[16:37] Anyway, the snobbery among lobsters. And by the way, to me. Well, I mean, I don't know how angry like sound-based lobster people are. I don't know whether they're as hardcore as Maynard's, but yeah, you could probably find a place. I mean, like on the Cape, like they they put traps out, but um a lot of the big lobsters they get with diving.
+
+[17:01] So like if you go to Cape Cod, like out at the tip, there's places out near the tip near Provincetown, like Race Point, where it gets really deep really quickly. And so people go to those kind of places where there's a big drop off and they'll um dive down for lobsters. Um, but I don't know. Yeah, you could look it up. I mean, it's a thing.
+
+[17:19] I also don't know whether there's any regulations about putting traps in in public waters in the sound. But yeah, the short answer is yes. You could probably buy a trap, get a buoy, and if you figured out how to legally do it, you could kayak out, drop that sucker and get a lobster, which would be, I think, fun to do at least once, right? Yeah. Also pulling a lobster trap back up into a kayak with you is gonna be quite the experience, I think.
+
+[17:44] Are you are you saying that Nastasia doesn't have the freaking anger to get a lobster trap out of the water in a kayak? She's got the anger to power it, but then I don't know. You'd be gonna be up close and personal with this lobster. In a very tippy vehicle. I mean, but she can lean the other way.
+
+[18:04] I mean, I have faith in her. I'm gonna have to say, I have faith that Nastasia will get that lobster up. I have a faith that if there's a lobster in that trap, she will get it up. Like, come hell or high water. She will get that lobster.
+
+[18:16] Although, isn't it weird that the lobster photo I sent you? They the claw was still intact. So they didn't eat the meat and the whatever ate it, ate the tail, but not the claw. So are you a tail person or a claw person? I don't like lobster that much.
+
+[18:30] I only like lobster rolls. Wait, is it it? Okay, so you like lobster rolls. Uh cold, not hot. What's the difference?
+
+[18:41] Okay. So mayo is the mayo in Maine. Yeah. No. What?
+
+[18:45] And you live in Connecticut? It's Connecticut Roll all the way. Yeah. I like I like I like I like uh I like a warm lobster but uh with in butter, lobster, lobster butter. Like that's my that's my favorite.
+
+[18:57] And surprisingly, even though Chester, Connecticut is not anywhere near the sound, like I'm sure they didn't open this year because of COVID. They have a fantastic place that is just it's he's a teacher, and in the summer he runs the snack shack by Cedar Lake, which is um like the kind of local town recreational lake in Chester, Connecticut. Some of the best lobster roll of Connecticut style I've ever had. Amazing. My dream in life is to run a snack shack.
+
+[19:27] Like that is what I would want to do. This is attainable for you. Yeah, get buddy buddy with the guy from Chester. Maybe you can inherit. No, no, I need to be on I need to be on ocean.
+
+[19:37] But um, yeah. This is attainable. Nastasia, this is completely attainable. But yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:45] You need a flat, you need a deep fryer and a flat top, and pretty much you're good to go. Right? And then Well, I think you're open whenever in the hell you want to be, because unlike a unlike a regular restaurant, it's not like if someone goes and the snack shack's closed today, they're like, Oh well. The snack shack's closed. Oh well, yeah.
+
+[20:07] And if they're if they're at the beach and the snack shack's open, they're like, I'm going to the snack shack. It's like ideal for you. Yeah. It's ideal. It's ideal.
+
+[20:13] I can see you kayaking up with your fresh lob fresh lobster catch. Yeah. Cooking up the one lobster roll you can make with your catch and then closing for the day. Yeah. And people are not upset by anything you serve them because it's it's just a bonus to the beach, you know.
+
+[20:29] It's just a freaking bonus. Right. So it's like it's like you can be as good as you want, but you don't have to feel pressure on it. Like, you know, you'll do a good job. I know you, you do a good job, but you don't have to be like that New York thing where it's like not only do you have to do a good job, but you have to have the appearance of doing a good job for everyone with their little with all their little mental gotsies that they have about like what a good job means in New York.
+
+[20:51] You know what I'm saying? And um, so like the yeah, I think maybe this is a I feel like we've you know gone to a breakthrough. This is what you should do. Snack shack. Like, let's make our next product.
+
+[21:05] Right. Let's make our next product. And I will make a snack shack. And you know, hopefully we make some money on the next product. We snack shack and you hang out.
+
+[21:13] And then you show up, and Nastasia will be sitting there, like pounding bubbly wine. She can't serve it to you because she doesn't have that license, but she'll be pounding bubbly wine. Wait, Dave, is it true that um you can't serve oh you can't serve alcoholic beverages on the beach, huh? I think it depends on the beach. You definitely can't have glass.
+
+[21:32] Most beaches don't, but it's like sometimes if you have restaurants, like there's demarcated areas where you can serve alcohol. But I'm just assuming that you don't have that license because that's a a gambocha to get that stuff. You just want to have a snack shack. Right. Yeah.
+
+[21:45] Right? I mean, you know what I mean? Uh oh, by the way, the blue lobster, I've never eaten one. It's also extremely fancy. Never had a blue.
+
+[21:53] I don't think they taste any different. It's just, I think a genetic thingamajig that makes them makes them blue, but they are more expensive. And lobster, as much as I love lobster and lobster rolls, lobster, second tier crustacean, I think. Crab. Oh, really?
+
+[22:08] Crab. I thought you were gonna say um the smaller things. Like what? Acrivise? Crayfish?
+
+[22:17] Yeah. No, that's like fifth tier. Like, look, I like I like the fl I like the flavor that of the water that crayfish are boiled in. But speaking of mud bugs, they're literal mud bugs. Like they live in fresh water, so they don't have like a lot of um like uh you know free peptides.
+
+[22:37] They don't need to. So like their flesh is like just not as flavorful, which is why they're and I love eating them. I love the action of just like ripping through all of those crayfish bodies, like I love it, just ripping through all those bodies. But like um, yeah, it tastes mainly about the the the boil, I think. This which is why when you cook a lobster, you cook it, you pull it, you eat it.
+
+[22:59] When you cook a crayfish, you cook it and you have to let it soak in that liquid forever, otherwise the thing is relatively tasteless. What do you think? I don't I don't have a lot of experience with crayfish. Shrimp as we eat them are good, but to me, like shrimp becomes a first-tier crustacean when you have the shell and the head, and you get that really crunchy head with the nice head goop, and you can suck that out. To me, that's top-tier crustacean action right there.
+
+[23:33] Whereas I don't like the head goop in a lobster. Anyway, so what do you mean gross? No, I'm sorry. Whatever's in the spinzall is gross. Oh, oh.
+
+[23:43] Oh, that's true. Yeah, so like, whatever, I'm not gonna get it. The spinzalls that that we have to wade through now, or I should say we, John is currently waiting through right now, are like what do you want to do to the people that that mail them back? Like really bad things. I can't believe people mail things back this way.
+
+[24:02] It's shameful. Uh I have no idea what uh how this is gonna work with our recording, but my internet connection just dropped for a second. Anyway, we have a uh fish question in the chat. All right, go for it. Corbin Fanning asks, how do you know which fish or any seafood for that matter you can eat raw?
+
+[24:24] The FDA guidelines make it seem like flash frozen frozen fish are the only safe thing, safe things to eat. How can this be true if sushi restaurants are varieties of fish and none of them look like they were frozen? Uh most fish in sushi restaurants has been prior prior, has been previously frozen. But like a lot of the freezing is done at kind of a really high level. There are different parasites that are associated with different um fish.
+
+[24:56] So, like, you know, um, some of which are merely gross. Like, I don't think you can get worms from cod in your own body, but they're just hard gross. That's why you don't see cod sushi, right, John? We were having this discussion the other day. I saw it once, yeah.
+
+[25:12] Yeah, well, you weren't you weren't happy about it. For those of you that have never handled raw cod, it's like it can be like wormaged. It's crazy, right? Um, so you know most fish are frozen that way. So we were talking, we had the Oracing salmon people on uh last year, and they just test theirs, don't and they don't uh freeze them, right?
+
+[25:38] But most of this stuff is frozen. It's certain fish are more susceptible to worms than others, especially uh fish that are um fish that are um carnivores, I think are more susceptible to a lot of these uh parasites, so most of them kind of are frozen. Um, as far as I know, but I could be wrong. Um so if you're catching your own fish, I mean, and you are gonna freeze them because you're worried about um parasites, uh, I would say the trick is is to get a is to freeze it as quickly as possible. So I would definitely do the salt ice slurry, zip it in a zippy, put it in and get it frozen very quickly.
+
+[26:15] This way you'll get less mushiness, you'll have a firmer fish, and you'll get less drip loss as it thaws. Do you think that answers the question, Matt, or no? Yeah, totally. My name is Brandon Hoy, co-owner of Roberta's. A super duper awesome place.
+
+[26:42] Robert's is a very, very, very, very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network. We're also super awesome. Thank you, Heritage. All right. Luke Mezzar wrote in via email.
+
+[26:55] Uh, currently have an instant pot, uh, and I'm looking to potentially buy a Kuhn Recon pressure cooker to get that extra pressure. I actually have never measured because I don't own one, the pressure inside of an Instapot. But for some reason, all of the electric pots that I have measured are lower than 15 uh pounds per square inch. Why? I don't know.
+
+[27:15] I don't, I don't know what it is. I spoke to Nastasi and I actually once spoke to someone who is uh worked for a company that sold pressure cookers, electric pressure cookers, and he said to us, What do you need the extra pressure for? And we're like, because. Wasn't that what I said, Sas? I think it was something like that.
+
+[27:34] I was like, and if I want it, why not just give it to me? It cooks faster. Like things taste, so like when you're cooking at pressure, by the way, uh the blog uh Genuine Ideas, which I do actually love that blog, has a completely incorrect view of why pressure cooking, pressure cooking, one of the ways pressure pressure cooking is different from normal cooking. Um, the extra temperature you get will accelerate cooking quite a bit of things like collagen. So when you're trying to do a braise uh and you want to break down collagen quickly, like those extra psi are gonna make it happen faster.
+
+[28:14] For sure, right? Because it's going to cook at a higher temperature. But not only that, if you go on Cooking Issues blog, which still exists somewhere, and you look at the pressure cooking posts, you can see we made the same stock in pressure cookers at different pressures. And the higher pressure, which you know is equivalent to a higher temperature, you'll notice the stock is browner. And you're getting more of those brown cooked meaty notes.
+
+[28:41] So the as long as the meat, right, the meat in a pressure cooker at a higher pressure is going to taste richer than it otherwise would, more meaty, assuming it's non-venting. So I I would say that the Coon Recon is going to get to a higher temperature than the instant pot. Therefore, I would like it better. And also, they don't say this, you can overdrive a coon recon if you want. Um, because the Coon Recon goes to uh the there's a little spring do dad.
+
+[29:08] It goes up to first ring, which is theoretically five PSI. It goes up to the second ring, which is theoretically 15 psi, and then it keeps going up for almost another like half ring before it starts going whoosh. So you can get a little bit of extra out of it. And when I really need it to work, what I do is I just throw some towels on top of the knob to provide a little down pressure, and I can get a little even more PSI. So even though you're uh up there uh at you know a mile above sea level, I think it's worth an upgrade to go to something where you're actually manipulating the pressure with a valve rather than um manipulating it with a temperature sensor in the bottom of a pot.
+
+[29:52] What do you think? Answer? Was that answered or no? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[29:57] All right. Uh I thought I answered this, but I guess I didn't, Jerough Ann wrote in via Instagram. Love liquid intelligence. Thank you. Wondering if I could ask a question about one of the recipes.
+
+[30:07] I've tried the cognac and red wine egg wash. So this is what what I did was is that we're making a carbonated drink with red wine and cognac, and it was just too aggressive with the wood and the tannins in the wine. So you wash it with egg, and the egg protein binds to a lot of the polyphenols and the tannins and pulls them out. So it just lightens it up. So it makes it that once you make the drink and you carbonate it, it you know, it's not too aggressive.
+
+[30:35] Not too aggressive like Nastasi and I were with each other last night. Right? You like that? Um so it turned out amazing, but how long are you able to keep the booze mixture after you've egg washed it? Can you use it forever because the alcohol content, or will it go bad because of the egg?
+
+[30:52] Hope you're able to answer my questions. Kind regards, uh Joanne. So uh yeah, you can use it forever. And in fact, the longer you wait, uh more egg white protein will drop out. And when the egg white protein drops out and you decant, or if you buy a spinzole when they're back in stock and you spin it out, if you get more of that egg white out, uh it will be easier and easier to carbonate if you're carbonating.
+
+[31:14] So yes, it will never go bad. Uh in fact, look, most of these high alcohol things that have milk or eggs or whatnot in them, like um the longer they sit, the more stable they are, and so kind of like the quote unquote safer they are. Um but uh if you're using the the protein like the egg white or you're using like uh milk protein, if you're using that as a foaming agent, like in a shaken cocktail, that will dissipate because the proteins will aggregate usually over time and fall out of solution. Um Peter Flanagan writes in hello. Uh oh my God, so I can't go through this.
+
+[31:52] Peter Flanagan, write us any time. So a couple of uh episodes back, we were talking about uh scales. And I was saying that I bought a scale on the internets that is 30 kilogram scale by the 0.1 gram. And by the way, I love it. And I also have for Booker and Dax, because we're gonna be testing um Searsol soon, and I want to be very accurate about gas consumption.
+
+[32:15] I have a five kilogram that does by the 0.01 grams. And my question was why is it that I can get these scales? One is five kilos by the 0.1 gram, one is 10, one is 20, and one is 30 kilos by the 0.1 gram, all the same body, the same, like everything, same basically price, but like one costs a lot more. And uh and Peter went through all of the uh calculations about how many bits they would need in their um in their um analog uh to digital converter and says it's possible, and then gives me some reasons about why some might be cheaper, which someone else also wrote in a process called binning, where I have a bunch of equipment and I measure it, and I take the crappy stuff and I sell it to you as a derated item. So like the crappiest units get get made into the five kilogram scales and the best units get made into the 30 kilogram scales.
+
+[33:12] Uh and then I like the sign off, and he says, We have any more problems, refer it to the cooking issues metrology department or some other lab monkey. Hope this helps Peter. I wish we had some lab monkeys. How much do you think a lab monkey costs us? What do we pay John?
+
+[33:27] Oh, wow. No, I mean, like an actual. I want an actual monkey. I want an actual monkey. Did we talk about this before?
+
+[33:34] Like the very worst Christmas gift you can give someone is a rescue monkey. Is that a thing? I mean, like I was just trying to imagine what's the very worst thing you could get somebody as a Christmas gift. And it's like, surprise, it's a monkey that's so poorly behaved that a person who actually wanted a monkey gave it up, and now you have it and you didn't even ask for a monkey. It's gonna be flinging poop everywhere, it's gonna be screaming, it may be violent.
+
+[34:00] Rescue monkey, the worst gift. The worst. I can't regift it. What are you gonna do with a rescue monkey? Anyway, if you think of a worse gift, you let me know.
+
+[34:19] Uh Heather Chang wrote in what? You got one? Question from the chat about eggs. Sounds like cookie, kind of urgent. Uh quick quick question from Nathan Page.
+
+[34:30] What's the temp time for pasteurizing eggs with a circulator or some resources for reading up on it? I'm wanting to make cookie dough that is safe for my pregnant wife. Ah, I would do 57 degrees Celsius for uh an hour and 20 minutes. And you could do if you needed to do an hour and 40, you could do an hour and 40. Here's why the the 57, which is 135 degrees Fahrenheit, will kill salmonella.
+
+[34:57] Um you wanna, I forget, I don't have in my head right now the actual uh thermal death curve for salmonella, uh, thermal death curve in chicken, which is not the same as eggs, but eggs is actually gonna be easier to kill than in chicken because it's a 100% liquid phase. So whatever the curve for chicken is will work in um eggs as well. So I would uh and also push the old blog again. If you go to the Sous vide, low temperature primer in the cooking issues blog, I printed the at the time FSIS uh curves for thermal death curves for Salmonella, and you can trace them. Uh but I use 57 because while an egg uh will get slightly thicker at 57 if you cook it for a long time Celsius, it won't set, right?
+
+[35:48] And um, so I use 57. And it within 45 minutes, the center of the egg will be within a degree uh if you're using large eggs, within 45 minutes, the center of the egg will be within one to two degrees of 57, and then I will let it ride for however long the thermal death curve is. Uh but I would say that if you did an hour and a half, you're probably way more than safe, and then cool it down. And so that's the way that I would do it. It might be possible to do it at a lower temperature and get even less of a thickening on the egg, like you might be able to do a 55, uh, but I always do 57.
+
+[36:26] Um part of that is because I often used to have 57 degree baths around for other things, and so it was just easier for me to do 57 than anything else. And 57 is the kind of um the hottest uh temperature that you can just put your hand in and out of to get things without having to worry about it. Answer was a good answer. Did it work? It's a great answer.
+
+[36:48] Every time you say thermal death curve, I think I should start a noise rock project called thermal death curve. Uh I mean if that if that hasn't already been taken, you must do that. I would, even though that's not my style of music, I would totally, I would totally listen to that. I would. The best band when I was in college was this band, Kentucky Fried Doom.
+
+[37:06] They put uh what do you call those? Pareto or the they put the oh my god, the contact mics on a deep fryer, and during the show, they were like a doom metal band. During the show, they would mic the deep fryer and deep fry any item that you brought to the show, creating quite a smell in the place. It was what did people bring? I mean, they well, some people brought things that they actually wanted to eat, like you know, Oreos and whatever else.
+
+[37:31] Uh I mean, people definitely brought meat because meat is the thing that's gonna like stink up the room the most. No one like put their underwear into fryer. No, it had to be food. I I I think it was all food. Actually, don't I'm not clear on who owned this deep fryer.
+
+[37:47] And how did it sound? How did the mic sound? I mean, it was great. It was just like this crazy otherworldly burbling thing going through a bunch of processing. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[37:57] Oh I like that. Kentucky Fried Doom, huh? I'm I enjoy my Doom Kentucky Fried. Although if Popeyes came out with some Doom, I would definitely buy the Popeyes Doom over the Kentucky Fried Doom. Because Popeyes is the superior chicken, I think.
+
+[38:12] Yeah, well where are you Stas and John? Uh, do you have opinions on uh fast food fried chicken? You saw me eating it last night. Yeah, I did as well. Which one?
+
+[38:21] Popeyes? Yeah, nice. She she was eating the sandwich. She was on the sandwich train, which I have not had one of their sandwiches yet. I've heard it's a delicious sandwich.
+
+[38:29] I've heard nothing but good things about Popeye's sandwich. And I'll say, Wiley Dufresne, famous chef, my brother-in-law, at his wedding, he was like, You know what I'm gonna have at my wedding for my wedding food? Popeye's fried chicken. And that's what they had, Popeye's fried chicken. Popeyes catered Wiley's wedding.
+
+[38:43] That's amazing. Yeah, it was. And you know, you know what no one said? This food sucks. You know how like you're at a wedding and you're like, oh man, this food sucks.
+
+[38:53] Well, like, no one says that about Popeye's fried chicken. Just like a bunch of Popeye's fried chicken around, no one's like, oh man, these suck because Popeye's chicken is delicious. Anyway, that's my feeling. So Booker loves Popeye's chicken. And Dax also, of course, loves Popeye's chicken.
+
+[39:08] But because Dax and I, you know, whatever, like Dax and I always want the spicy, and Booker has got in his mind that he doesn't want the spicy. So then I forced him to taste some spicy the other the other day, and I was like, see, it's not gonna burn you. It's not like super spicy. And he was like, I think I might have converted Booker to being okay with the spicy. You guys are spicy, right?
+
+[39:31] You're not a you're not a mild Popeye, are you? Really? Have you had the spicy one, Sas? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:40] Huh. Did I talk about 10 inch knives yesterday? Last time? Maybe. I don't think I did, but I think because you spoke to me about that, but yeah, not on the radio.
+
+[39:50] Yeah, I'll bring it up. So, like, uh, this is one of those things where I would have assumed and wrongly that like everyone had they had the spicy would choose spicy. But clearly, Nastasia, who knows what she likes, prefers the mild. And so, like, I have to re-uh re um, what's the word, re-uh calibrate my mind to see some people just like the mild one. Even it's not that Nastasia doesn't like spicy things, she just prefers the mild chicken, right, Stuz?
+
+[40:16] Right. So, so because I think like a lot of people have a a bad mental idea that just because somebody doesn't want something like this piece of chicken spicy, that they can't handle spicy things, which is not the case. I know that for a fact because I've seen Stas pound spicy food. Pepper flakes. Yeah.
+
+[40:34] But this what? Pepper flakes on our pizzas. Oh, hell yeah, man. Nastasi and I are like, we're like the, we're like the pepper people on pizza. Like when Nastasi and I show up to a pizza place and there's no pepper flakes, we're like, how am I supposed to eat this?
+
+[40:50] How am I supposed to eat this? And so like we instantly unscrew the thing because, and we have it's been a long time since we've talked about this. I want to find the idiot who made that pepper flake shaker and with the holes. Yeah, they don't. Yeah, it's it's insane.
+
+[41:07] It is insanity. It's done just to make you angry. It's like the person who designed that hates pepper flakes. That's what it is. They don't like pepper flakes.
+
+[41:17] And the roof one, there is a shape available that is fine for pepper flakes. So why does anyone have the one with the holes? I don't know. People, if you have the one with the holes, after you're done self-flagellating, get the one with the lines. It's the one with the lines that can do the pepper flakes.
+
+[41:36] That thing works fine. I uh we we don't have to unscrew the one with the lines, right, Stas? No. No. But they don't have them at Robertas, but we also don't go there anymore.
+
+[41:46] Well, yes, we're not we're no longer they yes, we no longer get our our pizza, but we used to just go unscrew that thing and just dump it. I I mean I use an inordinate amount of uh although you know what I've been doing now, uh I have a whole bunch of that uh Calabrian like uh Calabrian chili in oil. I've been like slathering that on pizza. That actually is spicy. You can put an infinite amount of pepper flakes on, and until they hydrate, they're not gonna kill you with spice.
+
+[42:15] But if you like go like completely ballistic with the Calabrian chili and oil, you will you will eventually feel it as spicy. You know what I mean? Anyways, you like those collabrian chili sauce? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[42:27] And they're good. You should get to some questions. All right. Heather uh Chang writes in this is Heather, bartender from Hong Kong. Uh recently I'm trying to create a corn flavored cocktail without infusing slash modifying the spirit itself.
+
+[42:41] I tried to, oh my God, we have such a long line of failed corn cocktails, right, Stas? Oof. Remember that corn spirit? Yeah, it was called like thunds or something like that. Was it called?
+
+[42:53] I don't remember. Oh, corn corn hole. Cornhole? It was called something. I don't know.
+
+[42:58] It was like anyway, uh, without modifying the spirit. I tried to blend the corn uh centerfuse, uh centrifuge it to get the juice, then clarify with agar agar. So pectanex doesn't work for corn clarification, but the outcome was still not very clear. Can I ask, do you have anything in mind that I can extract the flavor of corn and clarify it the best without infusing alcohol itself? Thanks.
+
+[43:18] Yeah, once you blend corn and you get that starch in it, you're not gonna get that starch out. Like you could let it sit forever and it will eventually like settle out, but it just takes forever. What what we used to do if we wanted things that were clear is we would get freeze dried corn and then just soak it for a long time and you get a kind of a soaked flavor, and then it doesn't throw off a lot of um starch. But as soon as you blend it, like pretty much your toast. But if the if you get the freeze-dried one, you can make like a corn tea with it.
+
+[43:52] Uh your yield won't be great, but it'll be clear. Does that make sense? Yeah. Uh Jason Dalio wrote in, Dave, love the podcast. Sorry to hear about your bar.
+
+[43:59] Me too. Would turning a toaster on its side work for reheating pizza slices? Jason, you are a lunatic. You're a lunatic, Jason. Like what kind of toaster?
+
+[44:17] So like the he included a picture with them. That's my fault for not including it in there. It's like the two-sided toaster with a spring, you know, you push it down, it pops up. Yeah. So the toaster was on its side.
+
+[44:26] Yeah, yes. Genius. Yeah. It works. So, well, here's the thing the crust on your pizza is rather high compared to a slice of bread.
+
+[44:40] So if you have one of these vertical toasters that's designed to do a bagel, so it has the it has the betel cr bagel cradle thing, then what's gonna happen is the bagel cradle will come down and hit the crust. God help you if that thing starts going into the cheese, right? The other the other problem you're gonna have is that a pizza slice, the average, now I'm going to the standard, like God pre-ordained large pie eight-slice pizza American style, right? That wedge kind of is not gonna fit all the way into a toaster. So you're gonna have to do halves anyway.
+
+[45:19] And as soon as that thing starts getting uh down there, especially on the reheat, I'm a little worried about the tip flop. So toaster grates aren't necessarily very, very closely spaced. And if you get tip flop down into your toaster thing, you're gonna get some serious scorching. You're also gonna have to worry about cheese drip. And so, I mean, if you had something black to it's because you're not supposed to have to clean the side of a toaster, right?
+
+[45:50] Like usually the the crumb tray is in the bottom. So you you're gonna have an opportunity to make quite a bit of smoke. And the at least in the old style toasters that I had, they use uh a resistance heating wire that is pretty much exposed. So it's a fragile and b electrically live. This is why you you know, when you go at a toaster with a fork, your parents would be like, what are you doing?
+
+[46:16] Get that fork out of the toaster. What are you raising? Like that. You know what I mean? Because like they can be electrically live.
+
+[46:22] So just be careful, but you know, if it fits, I mean you're gonna heat your pizza up for sure. I mean, what do you what do you think, John? I like to imagine that this person is sitting in a kitchen that has like a microwave, an oven, maybe even a toaster oven, but he's like, that toaster, that toaster is the thing. Yeah, well, I appreciate that. I mean, uh, Stas and I haven't seen the picture.
+
+[46:43] Stas, you haven't seen the picture, right? So we don't know what it looks like. I is that the one I forwarded to you, John? I think so. Yeah, I just got that this morning, right?
+
+[46:51] Yeah. And what do you think, Stas? You think it's a good idea or a bad idea? Um, I mean, Dave, it looks exactly like you'd imagine it to look like. With a bag with a bagel holder?
+
+[47:00] I think so, yeah. Yes, I did. Listen, listen, Jason, don't burn your house down. And if you do burn your house down, we told you not to burn your house down. All right.
+
+[47:10] Uh yeah, you heard it here. Thomas O'Connor wrote in uh hey, my name is Thomas, fan of your book. Uh I'm fascinated uh by uh so much. I'm slowly trying out the techniques starting with uh fast infusion with uh nitrous. Uh I've got an EC whipper and uh want to create sustainable drinks and food, hopefully taking the pulp from my Sous V strawberry and cream syrup uh into infused vodka, looking at your ratios.
+
+[47:36] I'd only need one charge for a 500 milliliter whipper, but what weight would you think would be suitable for pulp strawberries? Oh my God. Uh I can't, as then as with your jalapeno tequila, you suggest 45 grams of jalapeno. But jalapeno, look, in a jalapeno infusion, like you get a lot of flavor out of a little bit of a jalapeno. Think about how you're cooking with think about like when you're gonna sit down and eat strawberries, think of how many strawberries you're gonna eat.
+
+[48:03] When you're gonna sit down and eat jalapenos, think of how many jalapenos you're gonna eat. The bowl of strawberries is gonna be a lot bigger, right? So to get the same kind of flavor impact uh that you want out of strawberries is gonna take, I think, significantly more strawberries than it would take if you were gonna do uh hot pepper, right? Um it's hard for me to say with certainty, like every single so the technique we're talking about is rapid infusion, where you take a porous item. Uh so you gotta make sure the strawberry is still porous, right?
+
+[48:33] So if you've already made a syrup with it and it's you know a solid or collapsed or it's pulp or puree, then quick infusion is not really gonna help you anymore. Quick infusion's only gonna help if you have a whole fruit, veg, leaf, or spice that, or even if it is broken up, that is still porous because what's happening is is that the pressure is forcing the liquid into the food. And then when you release it, it's bubbling back out again. So, you know, anything else, you're you're really just trying to marry and clarify, which is more of you know something that you would either use agar clarification or a centrifuge for. But agar clarification with liquor, um, I don't like it as much because it tends to strip a lot of the flavor uh out of the booze.
+
+[49:20] I have done it, but it tends to water it down more. So I apologize that I can't give a ratio because all of those recipes were done just by testing and figuring out kind of what worked. Um, but to get flavor, it's usually more than you'd think. Uh the one of the exceptions is jalapeno's where you don't need that much to get the flavor you want. Um Jeremy Brainerd wrote in uh, hey, after burning through another standard non-stick pan, I decided to try carbon steel.
+
+[49:52] I tried seasoning the pan twice, but both times the seasoning seems to come off after just cooking some scrambled eggs with butter in the pan first. Do you have a good uh bulletproof/slash idiot proof method for applying uh a good seasoning uh that will last? Also, somewhat related side rant. When referring to heat uh on a cooktop, what is medium heat? Every burner is different.
+
+[50:12] You are correct. You're correct, Jeremy. Uh, medium heat is meaningless. Um I I like to think of it this way: low heat is I can walk away from it and ain't nothing bad gonna happen. Medium heat is bubba bubba bubba, and high heat is if I walk away from this pan, it's gonna start smoking.
+
+[50:29] I gotta watch out, which by the way, Dax did this morning, completely smoked out our whole house. He uses our not he uses our cast irons and he just cranks that sucker until it's like a freaking locomotive billowing smoke out of it. What does he make? Like, he like first he cooks like these bacon, egg, and cheese sandwiches for himself, which I applaud. But he cooks bacon.
+
+[50:53] I have so like you know how like uh at like uh a cheap steakhouse or like at a fajita place, you have those like oval cast iron skillets that you can just throw in the salamander, like you could put them on the on the stove, you could put them on a on a you know in an oven on on top of the range, or you could throw them in a salamander, you know what I'm talking about? Those oval ones with the handles, and then you put them on the wood, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So we have a bunch of those.
+
+[51:17] And Dax uses that to cook the bacon. I'm like, yo, dingus, like you're like grease is going everywhere, and then like lighting on fire. I don't know why. I've trained him, I've tried to tell him a million times, like the eggs don't want to be cooked that hot, you crazy guy. But still he anyway, whatever.
+
+[51:32] He persists. Uh so anyway, so you're correct. Medium heat uh has no meaning. Perhaps we should think of a better way to talk about it. That's a good uh project to think about.
+
+[51:42] Um, but back to your problem. Um when you're getting uh carbon steel, I think carbon steel is probably gonna take longer to fully season up than uh like a polished actual steel pan, old school, than cast iron simply because it's less porous than the cast iron, but it will eventually uh season. I would do the oil wipe, oven, oil wipe, oven, oil wipe, oven, oil wipe, oven until it is black enough for you to not worry about, and then it's still gonna stick for a while. Oil wipe, oil wipe, oil wipe, and eventually it'll start getting good. Um I don't have any like straight steel pans.
+
+[52:22] John, did you ever have to season those when you were doing your uh French e restaurant stuff or no? No, I did I did not do that. No. Yeah, but but there I I mean, like I did have to season a piece of uh regular black steel for a project I was doing, and yeah, it's just oil and heat for a long time. Uh, and it's gonna make some smoke.
+
+[52:43] Um, just keep doing it. It it'll work. Don't scrub it afterwards. I mean, that's the thing. Like, just use um uh like a Scotchbrite, like, and don't go too crazy uh at first, because you're really just polymerizing that oil and making a layer, and you gotta get and you don't want to go too thick on the oil because then it gets kind of gloppy, and that's no good.
+
+[53:02] No one no one likes a gloppy seasoning. Um Alexander Teilgard wrote in. I how is that pronounced? I wonder how you pronounce that. G-A with the aw sound over it.
+
+[53:12] Hmm, I don't know. Man, someone tell me. Uh hey gang, I'm a bartender from Norway. Never been to Norway, always wanted to go to Norway. Um, who any of you guys ever been to Norway?
+
+[53:22] No. No, not yet. I would like to go to Norway. Uh I'm a bartender from Norway who only discovered your great show a few weeks ago, and I love it. Have a few questions.
+
+[53:31] Uh both the book Liquid Intelligence and the Show has made me wanting a rota vap. However, they are far beyond my budget. Yeah, they are, they're expensive. Um, I came I came over some way cheaper options. Um this one's from AliExpress uh online.
+
+[53:46] They just say vacuum distillation. Um, can this be put together for a budget replacement for a rotovap? I'm mostly interested in doing reductions. If so, what kind of pump is recommended for creating negative pressure? How would a setup with a good pump uh an immersion circulator for heat compared to a real rotovet?
+
+[54:01] All right. So um you also asked about red hop okay, but let's look at the roto vap first. If you're mostly worried about reductions, then you don't really, really care about the distillate, then you can do almost anything you want. So you need a magnetic stir bar, you want to go pretty quickly uh with a hot plate, and then you need some form to suck a vacuum and you need uh a condenser just to condense the liquid out. But because you don't care about the flavor of the liquid because you're doing reductions, it you don't need to be that great.
+
+[54:31] You don't need a really, really good condenser, and you can frankly condense at a much higher temperature, right? So you could use tap water or ice water, and it won't be a problem. Uh for pumps, uh, because you are going to try to do kind of a hard reduction, you're gonna need a very good vacuum pump if you want your temperatures of your product to stay low, and you're gonna have to handle a lot of vapor, and uh you're also gonna be um letting liquids through your pump. All of that means that the little weenie diaphragm pumps that people sell and little piston pumps people sell are not gonna do it for you. What I would do is there's some very inexpensive refrigeration vacuum pumps.
+
+[55:10] Get a big one, you know, big, they're still only weigh like 15 pounds, but you can get them for like between 60 and 200 US, and um they're allowed, you want to buy a filter. So I don't know in Norway, in the US, we have something called McMaster Car, where you can get um like industrial things, and one of the things you're gonna want to do is get a muffler, and they're basically they're just they're literally like they screw onto the output of your vacuum pump, and they are A, they muffle the sound, make it a lot quieter. They're cheap, they're like 10 bucks. Uh, but also they're gonna stop the oil because these are oil pumps, the oil mist from going out into your kitchen, which is something you don't want to have happen. But if that's what you're looking to do, um that should work fine.
+
+[55:56] You know, really the super expensive roto vap becomes more important when you care about the distillate instead of the reduction. Does that make sense? Was that a good answer? Yeah. Uh also we gotta go pretty soon.
+
+[56:09] Uh all right, hold second. So uh also wondering about the red hot poker, I want to make one. I've ordered cartridge heaters. Oh man. Listen, um I I like the A people making a red hot poker.
+
+[56:25] The reason I didn't include instructions in the book on how to make a red hot poker, I just kind of showed what it was, is because if any of it goes wrong, I don't think it's gonna hurt. You can get hurt doing it. Like, so if you do something wrong and you get like a cartridge heater that's not made for what you're doing, or it's not can't handle what you're doing because none of them are made for what you're doing. You can get little molten metal blibs and you can get like uh electricity going into your drink. So you have to make sure you have GFIs and um, you know, you to be a little bit careful with what you're doing, but the longevity of a red-hot poker is also so short that you know, unless you're doing it for a living or you're really dedicated, it's a pain in the butt.
+
+[57:12] So I hesitate to give out what I did exactly or what I do exactly because I think it's just gonna be a heartache, and I don't want to be in the position of putting someone there. Um, so it's kind of like you need to do the experimentation to kind of figure out what works for you. Is this making sense what I'm saying, guys? I mean, I like it's in other words, I I I I hate giving out things and then having them either hurt people or having people be disappointed because they think they can follow a set of instructions I've given and it doesn't work. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[57:44] I mean, I thought the greatest risk of fire or injury was gonna be the toaster thing, but here we are at Red Hot Poker, so we're really doing it this episode. Yeah, yeah, right. Uh all right. So listen. Oh, oh um, there's, by the way, I have I missed three or four questions.
+
+[57:59] We'll get to you. We have a show next week, right, Sas? John's not here. It's just you and me. Oh, joy, joy, joyous.
+
+[58:07] Uh, all right. So I'll get to the rest of the questions I didn't get to. We had a backlog because we had an awesome classics in the field. Uh and I think uh those guys uh at uh Kitchen Arts and Letters, they did they make their goal, right? They definitely did, yes.
+
+[58:21] Yeah, all right. Remember, support Kitchen Arts and Letters, support your local uh bookstore, but even if they're not your local bookstores, support specifically Kitchen Arts and Letters. Uh Stas, John, Matt, you got anything else on the way out? What's up? Nah.
+
+[58:35] All right. Uh, John, have a good vacation. Remember, get your get your uh customer service questions because next week there will be no customer service. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[58:50] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[59:05] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[59:28] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by WisTale. Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Torchies Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with WisTale. Learn more at WisTale.com. Welcome to Jupiter's Almanac.
+
+[0:26] I'm Matthew Rayford, the great great great-grandson of Jupiter Gilliard, a former slave who bought the land I now farm in Georgia nearly 150 years ago. Through the years, my ancestors have passed on some essential and hard-earned wisdom about growing and producing the food we eat. It's my great honor to share that inheritance and to invite other farmers from Georgia and around the country to share their tips with you. It's an opportunity for us to slow down and to connect and to plug in. And the farm does that in a way that lets you connect and appreciate the life that's exists and nurture and cultivate that and then extend that to the relationships to the people who are in that house with you and your community.
+
+[1:14] So if you were just starting out, reconnecting with the land or a seasoned farmer, join the conversation. And to be honest with you, it was like, would Warren come out and say, hey, I want to be a farmer? Probably not. I I consider myself a city kid. You know, when we initially got a horse, you know, I have that New York City mindset, a horse, I'm thinking Thoroughbred horse, aqueduct racetrack, Belmont Racetrack, those type of things.
+
+[1:42] You know, and and slowly but surely, I'm starting to understand a lot more. I do remember early on, like, you know, the first month or two of dating, how we would daydream about starting a farm together, and it's kind of like, hold on, let's like pump the brakes and get to know each other first. And then talk about that. You know. So what got me into chickens?
+
+[2:06] Um, I always joke and say that a chicken saved my life. Um, and it very much so did. I'm interested in black liberation that's ecological and that's not contingent upon these systems giving us anything. There's also something that's beyond this that I want and that I seek for our for our people, and that's intimacy with the land, and that's reliability. And so for us, it's also this idea of connecting people back to the land and connecting our um folks back to their ancestries.
+
+[2:42] So, what does it mean to organically sustainably farm in our current economy and time? Please subscribe to Jupiter's Almanac wherever you get your podcast. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Its coming to you live from the Lower East Side of Manhattan on the Heritage Radio Network. I got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in Stanford, Connecticut on the sound. We have Matt in his Rhode Island Boothie McBooth, and of course, we are John Liszt today, because he is in Maine taking his vacation.
+
+[3:30] Right, Stas. Yeah, he's the only one of us who I think has he talked to you? He's already abiding by vacation rules. He's abiding by vacation rules, which I you know I appreciate. Like it's like, listen, like, would you prefer like here's the thing, right?
+
+[3:48] Like, I remember when we and this is gonna bite us again. I know it. Remember when the I was like, I'm only I'm only gone two weeks in the last three years, I'm gonna leave. Remember this when the series all was coming out? I was like, I haven't taken a vacation in three years.
+
+[4:01] I'm gonna be gone for like two weeks tops. Yeah. And in the middle of it, uh, our former business partner starts lobbying. Like, literally, I only had cell service. I was on the Pacific on the coast and Pacific Northwest.
+
+[4:15] I only had cell service for like a 50 mile stretch of the highway I was on, and he starts lobbing bombs at me. And I was like, What? Remember that? Yep. Yes, I was with him.
+
+[4:26] Yeah, yeah. Wait, what is what is lobbying bombs mean in this context? There was a problem with the product. Like that, like here's the other issue is like you're like you try to schedule your vacations when you're working on a business for things that aren't gonna impact your business, but you never know. You never know.
+
+[4:44] So you have to just make plans, right, Stas? Yeah, I don't think I've ever had a silent vacation ever with us. No, you just you're supposed to say, and you have said, it's like I'm dead. And it's like you're dead. Well, I know, but it's never ever.
+
+[5:00] I don't call you on vacation. Yes, you have. No, I don't. I'll send you I'll send you friend stuff because we are friends, but I don't send you business stuff. Before we had John, it was like I don't see the questions for the radio show.
+
+[5:13] Like, shit, like I'm sorry, stuff like that. That's classic friend stuff. I send that kind of thing to my friends all the time. Well, like the thing is like, even when you're on vacation, you have to send me the questions because I had no way to get them. Like, literally, I had I have literally no way to get them.
+
+[5:27] Like, you can log into my email. I can't log into your email. You've never given me the password. Like, I can't I literally, like, even if I hired someone, I would have to hire like the NSA to get it because I don't have it. What?
+
+[5:40] My only point was to say that I haven't had a silent vacation. Well, that's not I tend to not bother you. I tend to not call you even when we're working. But uh your calls today. What do you say?
+
+[5:56] I don't know why I didn't get your calls today. Yeah. Just do it normal. Don't do audio anymore. Like, I can get normal calls.
+
+[6:03] Why, you on Verizon now? No, but I'm on Wi-Fi calling. Let's not forget Nastasia's father works for ATT and has for how long? A million years. And yet you cannot get any decent service from these people.
+
+[6:20] No. I feel a little bad switching too. I think that that's the mental block. I'm like, oh man. You're shafting your dad?
+
+[6:26] Yeah. That's like my um Jen's family is uh Scott Scott tissues and you know Kimberly, you know, Clark, that kind of stuff, because her grandpa was their uh was the head of their fixing their like uh HVAC stuff for decades. And so for years, they'd like wipe their butts with substandard toilet paper just to stay true to brand. Years after he was dead. Yeah, it's like you know, what the hell, man?
+
+[6:52] You know, if you want to wipe your butt with something else, wipe your butt with something else. Loyalty. Loyalty. Loyalty, yeah. Let me tell you something.
+
+[7:01] Uh you know, like Stas, I I'm cheap, right? Yeah, you're real cheap. Yeah, you're also cheap. I'm cheap for myself, but I'm generous with others. So am I.
+
+[7:11] What do you mean? What do I what am I cheap on for other people? I mean, like I'm willing to get into it, but whatever. Um, you should see what I spend on, you know, freaking sushi for my kids. But the uh point is is that I think that certain things you should spend the money on.
+
+[7:32] Like decent mattress, I think decent toilet paper is worth the money. Not crazy, you know what I mean, but like decent toilet paper. What do you think? Uh I never spend money on toilet paper because I go through so much of it. It's not about the money, it's about I don't want to go back to the store constantly.
+
+[7:51] Yeah, so do you buy that like super thin? Yeah, I buy super thin. Super thin. Oh my god, but I look, I get where you're coming from, and this is all the this is the kind of math that all of us have to do every day, right? I don't want to go to the store.
+
+[8:08] But the thing is, don't you feel you have to use so much more of the thin stuff? Yeah, but I still think because even when you squeeze the good stuff, they could put more of the good stuff on there if they they rolled it tighter, you know. And I would pay for that if it was rolled tighter, like a Scott was. Like tight but soft. Tight but soft, but they do it loose so that you go through it faster, and I do it's the going to the store.
+
+[8:37] Yeah, also like a little bit of a tmi here, but like I am a I am a hard, vigorous wiper. So I like I feel that uh I feel that a lower quality toilet paper would be Oh Jesus bad. That's quite a thank you for that. Tight image. Little little bit of the TMI action.
+
+[8:58] A little bit. I'm just I'm imagining you going at that activity with the same vigor that like you used to have when you would walk into the studio later just in time and just like at 110%. Yeah. Yeah, well listen, if you're gonna do something, yeah, do it. You know?
+
+[9:18] Like no, no one goes into the bathroom and is like, I'm gonna do a mezzo mezzo wipe job. Right. No, that that hurts you for the rest of the day. The mezzo mezzo wipe job? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[9:33] Especially, yeah. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get into it anymore, but yeah. I mean, whatever. Yeah, we we we we are done talking about this. We are we are so off the rails.
+
+[9:42] All right. Anybody got any questions? Well, I'll say so uh I got some follow-ups. Uh so someone asked, I forget who it was, uh uh listener asked a while ago, a couple weeks ago about a recipe uh from my favorite pie book, Pie Marches On. By the way, Stas, do you like Petey's pies?
+
+[9:58] Are you familiar with Petey's pies? No, I don't know what they are. Oh, a lot of people, it's like uh it's like a very popular pie corporation right now. I hear they're coming out with uh a cookbook, so I have to now get it and read it and then like look at the new Petey's Pies pie book versus of course my gold standard for pie books, pie marches on. So uh Monroe Boston Strauss, and by the way, uh I'll go through this first.
+
+[10:26] Bonro Monroe Boston Strauss invented this aside from chiffon pies, invented this thing called the black bottom pie. And one of the um, it has a very it's small amount of chocolate in it. And uh I did what I almost never do ever, which is extremely carefully followed a recipe instead of like making my own corrections as I go, because I did read his recipe for it, and it was preposterously low in chocolate. You can find this on the internet, by the way. Um so I made his black body bottom pie, and I will say this.
+
+[10:57] That pie, you should not make that pie as a single pie. It's just the quantities are too small. You're gonna have to change the way it's constructed because making the filling with such a small amount is very difficult. That's one. Two, um, when I ate it, so the idea is it's like a it's like a a chocolate layer, it's like a graham cracker crust, his style graham cracker crust, a chocolate kind of pudding layer, an eggnog layer, and then whipped cream on top.
+
+[11:27] Alright? So you got it, like the three layers. You with me so far? So um, so I made it, went through all the you know, mishigash, all the stuff, made all the things, blah, blah, blah. Cooked it, sliced it.
+
+[11:42] I was like, oh, the black bottom pie, the world's greatest pie. And I was like, this tastes like pudding from a box. I was like, I was like, this is pudding from a box. But I'm not a pudding pie kind of a guy. So then two other people, Miley Carpenter, my sister-in-law, who is also the editor-in-chief of the Food Network magazine, and my wife were like, no, this is really good.
+
+[12:03] I would eat this again. This is delicious. So it might be just that I'm not a big pudding pie guy. I don't know. Where are you guys on pudding pies?
+
+[12:11] Like Boston cream and whatnot. Didn't know that was a thing. Oh, Boston cream. Oh, okay. I mean, pies, pies where the filling is basically pudding.
+
+[12:20] That's not my thing. I don't like it. No. No? No.
+
+[12:25] But you're not a pie person in general, right, Nastasia? Right. You're talking to two non-pie people. What the hell? How do I have two non-pie people?
+
+[12:33] Like, if you had there, then you'd have two pie people and two non-pie people. That's true. What? Either. Did you say vegan?
+
+[12:43] No, no. No one said vegan. Even. Oh, even, even. I'm like, are you trying to you trying to taunt me?
+
+[12:49] I'm trying to tell you I only like vegan pies. Were you in lime, Dave? What do you say? Were you in Lyme? No.
+
+[12:58] No. Ridgefield. Um, but the was I forget, Nastasia. Was there any kind of pie that you enjoy? Uh no.
+
+[13:10] Is cheesecake a pie? Ooh. I'll tell you what, it may not be a pie. Some, you know what? Some idiot is gonna get on here and say that it is a pie.
+
+[13:19] Someone is gonna say, because it's got a crust, someone's gonna say that if pumpkin pie is a pie, cheesecake is pie. Although I will say this. Do you enjoy pumpkin cheesecake? Which is like a direct split between a pumpkin pie and a cheesecake? I'll eat it.
+
+[13:35] But you would you would rather have a regular flavored cheesecake. Yeah. I've told you the story a million times how I used to hate cheesecake, right? No. So when I was a kid, there were two things I didn't like on earth.
+
+[13:49] Melons, foodstuffs. Plenty of things I don't like. Foodstuffs. Melons, and uh, except for watermelon, and cheesecake. And my thing I always say was, I love cheese.
+
+[14:02] I love cake, but I hate cheesecake, right? I don't know why. I love it now. Um, but like, this is what I try to tell my kids. Like, when I see Nastasia, I'm sure you're the same way.
+
+[14:12] And you know, Matt, you chime in. Like, when you went to somebody's house and they served you something, you weren't like, I don't like that. No. You ate it. No.
+
+[14:20] That's where you find out you actually do like something, you've been an idiot the same place. Right. Yeah, for me, like it wasn't that. I knew I was gonna hate it, but you still you power through it, right? Yeah.
+
+[14:29] So like kind of this moment of my my life, like the hardest eating thing I ever had to go through, because no one puts like eight piles of melon on your plate. It's like melon is always something that's sitting in a dish, and you could take just one piece and then kind of ch jam it in your throat and deal with it, right? No one's piling melon on your plate. So um my my uh stepfather's stepmother, Didi, was famous for her cheesecake in Boston. She's part of the Boston Italian side, right?
+
+[14:58] So she's famous for her cheesecake, American style cheesecake. She also made a you know a pizza dolce, like a ricotta style cheesecake, but well known for her cheesecake. So at dessert, I'd already plowed through this giant dinner. At dessert, she hands me this giant piece of cheesecake, and and of course I dutifully eat the whole thing. She sees that I've eaten the whole thing is like he likes the cheesecake.
+
+[15:21] Did you like the cheesecake? I'm like, Yeah, the cheesecake was good. Gives me a whole nother freaking slice. And I had to eat the whole thing. And I realized my kids would never ever just plow through something because it was the right thing to do.
+
+[15:34] I'm not saying at your parents' house, right? Where you have some sort of say. I'm saying when you go to somebody else's house. You know what I mean? Totally.
+
+[15:42] Even I mean, even when I was, you know, vegan and whatever. If somebody it's a whole different ballgame. If somebody is serving me food at their house, I am eating the food. I don't care what it is. Right.
+
+[15:51] I mean, like, if you give them some heads up, I mean Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's that kind of situation, sure. If it's friends, you let 'em know. But like if it's, I don't know, whatever. Somebody's family or something.
+
+[15:59] Uh Crookshank is in the chat, wants to know two things. Indiana sugar pie. You have thoughts. And also he wants to know uh he wants an update on how Booker's baking is going. Uh Booker wants to start a baking business where he bakes cakes for local people, but Booker is a strange combination of hating his parents' authority, but like somehow bending to outside authority.
+
+[16:27] So he's like, I wanna ask the, I want to ask the co-op, which is you know, the the apartment buildings where we live. She's like, I want to ask the co-op for permission. We're like, they can't grant you permission. Don't ask permission. If you're gonna do it, it's gotta be illegal.
+
+[16:39] You don't have the ability to do this legally. He's like, no, well, I'm like, I didn't say don't do it. I said you can't do it legally. Anyway, he doesn't seem to get you know what I'm saying, Stas? You know him, you know what I mean?
+
+[16:49] Yeah. Yeah. Goodbye, but you never book bake me my German chocolate cake. He did bake you that other cake. You want me to get on his case again?
+
+[16:59] He doesn't have time. Doesn't have time. I mean, I'm leaving. I leave next weekend, so you're actually gonna be away for a long time. So this is a place where I am allowed to call you uh work-related things, correct?
+
+[17:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. The only person I took was Ohio for the two days. Yeah. So uh Nastasi and I, by the way, got to hang out with John and uh Jack and the Boondogler because uh was it last week?
+
+[17:27] Was our was our wild air pop-up? Did we talk about it last week? I don't you didn't really talk about it, actually. Huh. Well, it was it wasn't a PTSD thing.
+
+[17:39] I mean, it was fun. I thought it was fun. I thought people enjoyed it. We made some good cocktails, I thought people enjoyed it. It was good to see uh, you know, uh Fabian and Jeremiah from Contra Wilder.
+
+[17:44] Fabian, I call him fabulous, so I'm gonna continue to do so. Gave me a giant side of bacon on a whim, which is now in my fridge, and I s and I still haven't had the time. Do you take the skin off of bacon stuff? I know you don't eat it right now, but do you like skin on bacon or skin off? Um I don't even know.
+
+[18:08] I think I think most people like it off. If you've ever had bacon with where the the fat side had that kind of real chewy section to it, that's skin on bacon. But I think 99% of people prefer it with the skin off, I would say. Anyway, so I gotta skin it, par freeze it so my crappy slicer can slice it and slice it down. So I haven't used it.
+
+[18:28] But I did yesterday with not his bacon. I used the last of my you know, bacon that I had, make the last of the season BLTs. I put that up on the Instagram if you're if you're curious about how I think a BLT sandwich should be made. And the answer is toast bread on one side only, because I hate it when a sandwich scrapes the hell out of the top of my mouth. Does that bother you guys?
+
+[18:52] I usually protect for that. What do you say, Sas? I usually protect for that. What do you mean? Like gently put in the right amount so it doesn't scratch it.
+
+[19:03] No, and I meant like the toast. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Oh, we mean toast it the right amount. No, like oh put a piece in my mouth that is small enough to not scratch the entire roof of my mouth. Oh, yeah, I don't even understand how you would go about doing that.
+
+[19:16] Oh, by the way, speaking of that, I've been eating everything on one side of my face because on Friday I had a wisdom tooth taken out. I'm like the only 49-year old guy, like anywhere that gets a wisdom tooth taken out. Get this, Stas, you're gonna love this. So one of the things that's ornery in me, other than me, are my teeth, right? So my teeth are well known for having long, curly roots, right?
+
+[19:44] And like I'm not joking, like corkscrew, like they turn. The teeth want to stay in my head, right? So I got this wisdom teeth tooth that was partially erupted after all this time, who knows why. I have one that's still way up in my face. And I had a nightmare experience when I was a kid.
+
+[20:01] Getting I went when I got my braces, they pulled out four normal teeth, and I can still feel the guy yanking at my jaw, feeling my whole jaw bend, him telling me to stop fighting him while he's ripping my teeth out of my head, like I can hold him in my face. The jerk, the butthead, sadistic weasel. He ripped four of my healthy teeth out. Nightmare. And then I went to the, and I've told this before on the air, I went to the NYU, like supercuts of dental schools for them to remove my wisdom tooth, and these two student dentists couldn't oral surgeons couldn't get the freaking tooth out of my head.
+
+[20:34] And so, like I had to watch, and of course, no one gives me real anesthetic. They give me the local because they're like, it's just a tooth distraction, it'll take like you know 20 minutes. And then, like an hour and a half later, I'm there, like, you know, like blood all over their all over me, blood and teeth fragments all over their face masks, like freaking, like that smell of burning bone, like cracking noises, like all this stuff as they were mangling my. I was like, forget it. And that's one of the reasons my other wisdom tooth has stayed in for another 20 years.
+
+[21:05] So, like, 15, 20 years. So I go, and uh I had she's a very good oral surgeon. She's also a doctor. She'd been doing it a long time. So she was able to successfully rip my teeth tooth out, but in one piece.
+
+[21:14] So she didn't have to hack it or put, you know, did I tell you this? When they bone graft you, like if your tooth shatters and they're gonna put a uh a cap over it so that your gums can grow back over the fragments of the tooth, like they they use cadaver bone. Did you know that? Yeah, that's what I said. I was like, aren't there any pleon problems?
+
+[21:40] She was like, no. I was like, okay, geez. Um so anyway, but she was worried she didn't want to go in there because my root is so big, long and curly, like it was right next to the nerve. So she's like, if I dig in there like I would with someone with smaller roots, I could jam your nerve and your whole jaw and like your tongue and stuff would go numb for who knows how long. I'm like, no, no, no, thanks, no, thanks.
+
+[22:03] So anyway, she finally rips the things out. And by the way, I'm so terrified of this procedure. And by the way, in order to get full anesthesia, she said that it would be an extra thousand dollars, eleven hundred dollars, and insurance wouldn't cover the general anesthesia. So I'm like, I could buy a lot with you know, a thousand dollars, you know what I mean? So, for instance, the x-ray that she took the week before and didn't tell me was gonna cost a thousand dollars because insurance didn't cover that.
+
+[22:29] I could have I could have bought that anyway. So I did it under local, and she halfway during the procedure, she's like, your eyes are freaking me out. Because like apparently she's like, your eyes look like from Gremlins, the movie, like because they were like open so wide, and I was like staring straight at her as she was ripping the tooth out. You would do the same thing, Stas, right? I asked for extra Novocaine even when they ask if I if I can feel don't feel shit stuff.
+
+[22:56] Yeah, well, they should do the same thing to me. So she gives me all the Novicane. They put in a couple of extra what they call blocks, and then like as she's like got her whole body in there, she like drilled a thing into it and then like looped something in, was twisting out. I was like, yo, this hurts. Like, but it sounded more like this.
+
+[23:16] You know what I mean? And so she she stops, and she's like, that's just pressure. I'm like, that's not pressure. And she's like, listen, listen. She's like, when the pressure gets to be as intense as what I'm doing to you, your body can't distinguish between pressure and pain.
+
+[23:30] And then I'm like, what's the point? Yeah, wait, what? What's the point of the anesthetic if my body can't distinguish between the two out? What? Why didn't they knock you out completely?
+
+[23:45] A thousand extra dollars. Thousand extra dollars. Should have been like a BYOA option. Yeah, I know. There's some places that let you bring your own anesthesiologist.
+
+[23:56] I mean, I will always do that forever and ever. Yeah, but no, it wasn't she wasn't qualified, but then you still have to pay the anesthesiologist. She was saying for a dental procedure. Well, that's the thing. I should have paid the thousand dollars.
+
+[24:10] I mean, now he knows he wanted to pay the thousand dollars. Well, but I you know what? I'm glad I have the thousand dollars. I need the money, frankly. Nastasi and I are about to go out of business because Amazon won't pay us.
+
+[24:19] So frankly, I need the money. You know what I mean? It's like, how much do they owe us now, Stas? Do I mean, oof? Uh you really only say it?
+
+[24:29] I mean, look, bear in mind, people, that the only reason Nastasi and I haven't invested our last two bucks in squeegee's and gone out on the highway is because of this loan that the government gave us. Like, and that we've blown through because Amazon owes us about a third of a year of money. Yeah. Okay? So, like a third of a year, right?
+
+[24:53] I saw a message from them this morning, and they said, you know, we're still working on this. I hope that you'll release your next P.O.s to us and do business as usual. You know what? I feel you know, I feel for Bezos because I know he's hurting, you know? He's like hard.
+
+[25:11] It must be it must be hard. You know? I feel bad. I feel I feel real bad for him. His, you know, private flight attendants probably have to wear masks now, and that's just a lot.
+
+[25:23] That's just a lot for him to have to deal with, right? Yes. Oh my god, did you see last night on the news? Holy crap. What happened?
+
+[25:30] What Trump did? Oh, with taking the mask off and saying I'm I'm Superman now, it's not so bad. We should all get that that thing? Yes. Yeah, please.
+
+[25:40] Uh yeah. Please. Uh please. Uh oh, wait, so back to the I didn't finish my BLT. Hold on one second.
+
+[25:45] BLT. All right. So I toast one side only because I don't like when my mouth gets ripped off, and I don't have the self-control nostasia has. So I'm gonna shove a giant piece of sandwich in my mouth, and that much toast against the roof of your mouth is like sandpaper. So I toast one side only, and I put the toast inside to act as the moisture barrier.
+
+[26:03] Now, some people don't like moist tomatoes in their uh in their BLTs. Then why eat a BLT? Then just eat bacon and lettuce. Like get a good tomato. And so my favorite, I've said it before, I've said it again, Stokes Farms in uh old Tapan, New Jersey.
+
+[26:20] Uh, farmer uh Ron Benagi there. He is how do you pronounce his name? Anyway, he I just call him Farmer Ron. I've never said his last name to him. So uh his Aunt Ruby, their Aunt Ruby's German green, which is like grown there.
+
+[26:34] It's a I'm not vouching for this variety grown by anybody else, but their version of them are fantastic, and their German stripe is my second favorite tomato. And some people actually prefer the German stripe, although I'm an Aunt Ruby man. Uh so I got this season, they've had a terrible time because that storm knocked down all of their tomatoes. They lost a lot of them, and they they had a relatively small harvest here this year, but even though it was small, it was delicious. And I just picked up what I think are the last ones, and yesterday I made the BLT.
+
+[27:03] So get a nice, juicy, the best tomato you can get, one that tastes like a tomato, right? And then, okay, so you have your bread, toasted side, is gonna be on the inside, mayonnaise on both sides. The grease actually prevents the tough stuff from sogging out, right? So it actually helps there. Plus, it adds flavor and a little bit of lubricity against the uh of non-moist non-wet, non-water-based lubricity against the toast surface.
+
+[27:27] Salt, pepper, the mayonnaise. Now, lettuce and lettuce. These are two non-permeable things that provide crunch and prevent sogging from the incredibly juicy tomatoes. So lettuce on both pieces of bread, then the big juicy, delicious tomatoes, more salt and pepper, bacon, sandwich it, eat it. That's the way I do the BLT.
+
+[27:47] By the way, I know that you have no opinion on this, Matt, but Stas. Bacon on a BLT, crispy or not crispy. Do you like a softer or a harder bacon? Um just right? Crispier, I think.
+
+[27:58] Yeah, but in other words, like that's different for different people. You prefer a crispier? Yeah. By the way, I have an opinion. It's crispy, man.
+
+[28:05] Crispy? Sandwich. I mean, it's definitely crispy. Alright. Well, there's a point where I think some people in their in their zest for crispiness take it to the point where it has no moisture in the bacon at all, and then it just tastes like carbonized pork.
+
+[28:21] That I think is a mistake. I think Nastasia got it right when she said just right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[28:28] That's right, it's cheating. No, you know what I mean. Like, you know what I mean. What you mean is you want some crisp. You don't want to, you don't want to, although I have to say, I do enjoy eating flaccid bacon.
+
+[28:41] I do. Because the flavor of the bacon is the best when it hasn't been desiccated. But the texture flavor combination of bacon, I think in the sandwich is best when it's got a a little bit of shatter on the outside. So I think depending on what the bacon is for, you know, you can do it. You could do it different ways.
+
+[29:01] And I'm not going to get in because we don't have time into different ways of cooking uh uh bacon. I also went apple picking this weekend, Nastasia. So nice. I went two and a half hours to Samuscott Orchards up in Kinderhook, New York. Not overrun.
+
+[29:15] It was almost empty. And they had uh pick your own ash mead's kernels. It's the only place I've ever seen pick your own ash meats kernels, although someone tells me there's others. They also had Northern Spies and Nastasia. Hold on one second.
+
+[29:29] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, hold on a second. Uh yeah, I got it. I'm back. Uh I had to stop some noise generation in the background.
+
+[29:36] By the way, everyone obviously we're we're all together in the same house because that's the way it works. Anyway, and school's back in. Um, so they also had pick your own pumpkins, but I didn't pick your own cauliflower. Who needs to pick their own cauliflower? Who needs to pick their own kale?
+
+[29:51] I mean, I don't really understand why. I mean, like picking your own apples makes sense to me, picking your own cherries, like like even picking your own pumpkin if you're a kid, getting to pick your pumpkin and cut it, like that's cool. Pick your own cauliflower. Who needs this? Anyway, um, their prices, first of all, the people were very nice.
+
+[30:08] It wasn't crowded, so it felt good for social distancing. And Ash meats kernels, pick your own a dollar a pound, Nastasia. A dollar a pound. Such a good deal. And um line to get in.
+
+[30:21] They also had pick your own chestnuts, which is a little bit of a it was a little bit of a pain in the butt searching for chestnuts, but anyway, we picked some picked your own chestnuts too. So uh I recommend Samuscott's orchards uh wholeheartedly. They've got the good apple varieties. Their map is bad, so you have to go look for them, but uh the apples themselves, delicious. So I'm gonna make a uh a pie maybe with either spies or ash meads kernels or some combination, and I'll let you know whether the pie marches on, or maybe peas, pies if their books come out, which one of those uh works out.
+
+[30:50] And I found a tiny apple. I would like some reader uh listener feedback on this, a cane, which I believe I've had before, but as grown and samuscot are tiny, like sour power patch kid apples that were kind of interesting. I got those for Booker because he likes really sour apples, and I wanted to teach him that green apples aren't the only sour apples. Anyway, you were gonna say, Matt, about a question. Oh, I mean, chat is just blowing up over here.
+
+[31:17] All right, uh in roughly in order. Chef Joanna reminds us that we're supposed to be talking about this guy who OD'd on licorice. Oh yes. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[31:26] Yeah. Okay. Uh so John, by the way, hates licorice, black licorice. What are your thoughts? I have not acquired the taste.
+
+[31:37] Same. This is a good way of putting it. This is like uh, this is like what's his name said to Caligula. Remember that? I forget who it was.
+
+[31:45] Some famous, some famous writer. Uh anyway, I won't get into what it's it was a very diplomatic way of putting it. I have not yet acquired the taste. Um yeah, I love licorice. This guy ate a preposterous amount of licorice.
+
+[31:59] And it turns out that if you eat a preposterous amount of licorice, uh, it can uh be bad for you and in fact can kill you. This guy died as a result of consuming too much licorice. Now, I haven't researched it for a couple of weeks, so I don't remember exactly what the reaction is, but it's a well-known reaction that if you eat too too much licorice, um, it's gonna be a uh a problem. Now, the reason this happened is this guy apparently would eat several sacks, sacks of red licorice a day, right? And red licorice doesn't contain licorice, so it is not a health hazard other than you're consuming that much licorice, right?
+
+[32:41] Uh probably to the exclusion of other things that you should be eating. Uh and so then one day he's like, I'm gonna try the black one. And so he switches, like direct switches from red to black, and it just turns out that because he wasn't building up to it over any period of time, his body over the course of a couple of weeks was just inundated with with lit actual licorice. And um, yeah, but my problem with it is is that everyone's like none of none of the articles I found, none of them, uh stated like the licorice cont like the the I forget w what it is, like licorizic, whatever it is. Like the content.
+
+[33:27] First of all, I didn't even find the size of the bag, right? So who knows how many pounds or kilograms of the stuff he's eating. And then furthermore, different black licorices have different amounts of actual licorice and their and their kind of their principles in them, right? So to say they gave nothing that you could count on, right? And and until you eat a dangerous amount of licorice, licorice is not dangerous.
+
+[33:54] In fact, licorice in small amounts, some people think is very good for you. You know what I mean? So it's like some people say. Anyway, so my point is is that like all of these places were like we need to issue more warnings about the licorice. Why don't we just issue warnings to be reasonable?
+
+[34:09] Do you know what I mean? I mean, yeah, you could do like a blanket warning, like don't eat an absurd amount of any or drink anything, because it's probably not good for you. Yeah. You know, uh, this guy, this guy was drinking uh he was drinking vitamin water. He was drinking like two gallons of vitamin water a day.
+
+[34:28] That's a lot of vitamin water. Yeah, and yeah, it's a lot, but he was fine. He was drinking two gallons of vitamin water a day. Then what happened? He switched to red wine and he died.
+
+[34:36] I mean it it that doesn't mean that the red wine's gonna kill you is you don't drink two gallons of red wine. You know what I mean? Just anyway, uh my point is is that Dave, do you want to try the thing that we talked about where we give you two minutes to talk about each subject? Yeah, yeah, sure. Okay.
+
+[34:59] So Nastasia Nastasia has said that she's like uh like uh after like once we start something now. Now here's the question though, Stas. Well, after we start something, she's gonna give it like a uh uh like a two-minute boxing timer. I'm just trying to stick by it. So let's try it.
+
+[35:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it starts after I read the question when I start talking about it, right? So that means I have to try to not go on a tangent in the middle of reading the question. Right. Alright.
+
+[35:29] All right. We're gonna try this, Pete. Let's try it. Back to the chat. So let's try it with the chat question, okay?
+
+[35:35] Yeah, sure. This episode is brought to you by WisTale. Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Torchy's Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with Wisetale. Wisetail is a state of the art learning management system built to engage and empower your workforce.
+
+[35:59] With a modern user interface and intuitive course authoring capabilities, Wisetail has helped hundreds of businesses achieve their growth goals. Plus, Wisetale has experts on call to help you bring your vision to life with their world-class client success team. Come see how WisTale's award-winning training platform can go to work for you. As a special offer, H R N listeners are eligible for their first month free. Learn more at WisTale.com slash H R M.
+
+[36:28] That's Wisetail.com slash H R M. W I S E T A I L dot com slash H R M. Terms and Condition apply. Visit their website for more details. Alright, um Juran Sandstrom.
+
+[36:46] Oh, I have his question here. Alright, you you read it. You read it. You read it. That makes it easier.
+
+[36:51] How can I make syrups for cocktails containing plant material, in my case, strawberry, last longer in a fridge? I've been experimenting with potassium sorbate, but unsure it's the right choice. Are there other methods I should be aware of? He also followed up with also how does sugar to other ratio affect shelf slash fridge life. Some claim a certain sugar content inhibits mold.
+
+[37:14] Alright. So you start a suspicion? Yes. Alright. So, like, look, obviously, we know that mold can there's mold and bacteria are the two things you're worried about.
+
+[37:24] All right. So you got to separate the the two out. Above a certain sugar level, bacteria is not going to grow. But even up to about 50% sugar, you're still going to get mold and yeast, not yeast, but mold growth on top. Ask any simple syrup that's ever had mold grow on it, right?
+
+[37:39] So sugar does help as a preservative, but you have to ask yourself what you're preserving against. You're talking about sorbate. Sorbate does not taste bad. Potassium sorbate doesn't taste bad. And it's good against yeast, somewhat good against yeast, but it doesn't do so well against bacteria.
+
+[37:54] So if you're worried about bacteria, that's you're gonna need to add something else as well. You could try maybe pasteurizing it. That will help. That was two minutes? That wasn't two minutes.
+
+[38:05] No, no, no. Keep going. Benzoate does tastes terrible, right? And some people think it has bad uh things when there's ascorbic acid, it creates benzene, but it is both antibacterial and anti-yeast. So a lot of people who make syrups for things like soda at a small amount, less than one tenth of one percent of benzoate and sorbate in combination to get uh preservation.
+
+[38:29] But I'm gonna say try sorbate and then try pasteurizing. You don't need to sterilize it, you just need to pasteurize it, and that will kill uh yeast and uh molds, and then the sorbate uh in it will will help with that, and the sugar level should stop bacteria from growing too much. So I would try that. Where was I? 26 seconds left.
+
+[38:52] Woo! All right. All right. Uh all right. Hmm.
+
+[38:58] So what are we doing next? You got more chat or are we going to written in four? Well, do you have this one from Andrew about building a fire pit? No, go. Okay.
+
+[39:08] Uh Andrew from Atlanta writes in to ask, I am looking to build a fire pit to enjoy and cook over. I'm considering those smokeless. Um, yeah, no, I don't think so. I look, most of the flavor what people say is um is from fat dripping down and then combusting and going up. So I, you know, I don't think you're gonna lose too much.
+
+[39:48] I mean I don't know. I'm not familiar with these, uh I'm not familiar with these smokeless things, but anything that's gonna increase combustion is gonna be good. The the biggest thing is using dry wood. Uh over uh up to half of the BTU output of wood will um is used to boil the water off and in wet wood, and that also creates a bunch of smoke. So, like moving to a smokeless fire pit, great, but I think dry wood is the first thing most of us can do to try to get a better job when when cooking over wood, but I just don't have uh uh a lot of experience about this.
+
+[40:23] And if your fire is really hot, once it gets hot, like it's only throwing smoke at the periphery where it's not hot. The hot part is almost like coals, and it's gonna be uh fine. So I don't have any particular experience with that. Is that okay, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[40:37] Hold on one second. Minute left. And uh Yeah. Okay. Uh Greg background.
+
+[40:45] What? Someone has a Yeah, Greg. Yeah, I know. I told I I tell Booker every week, I'm like, I have this one hour. I need you to not make noise.
+
+[40:53] He's come in three times to like rifle through the freezer. Is it okay if he's making a German chocolate cake for you know, but otherwise this is not a good idea? Yeah, Booker, you can only make noise if you're making Nastasia's German chocolate cake that you promised that you never made. Because I didn't have time. Well, you don't have time.
+
+[41:09] What are you doing? You're rifling through the freezer now. That's the thing, people don't understand. It's like if you have time to do anything, you have time to make a chocolate cake. Hold on, hold on.
+
+[41:17] Oh boy. Oh boy. I try, Nastasia. I try to. All right.
+
+[41:21] Um, all right. Greg White wrote in uh via email. Do you like via or via? Via. I don't care.
+
+[41:28] Via? Yeah. Nastasia's the poetry major, so I'm gonna, if she likes V, I'll go with Via. Uh this is a question that maybe I purposely haven't answered because it's about carbonation, and we all know how that goes. So this is gonna be a perfect two-minute timer ding-ding, right?
+
+[41:44] This is the perfect type of yes. Go. All right. Uh this is from Greg, uh, big fan from Norfolk VA. Uh thanks for continuing the cooking information during the COVID.
+
+[41:54] I have some questions about carbonation and ads to taunt you, Nastasia. Sorry, not sorry, Nastasia. There's a taunt. Well, can't you just direct him to the video you made? No, because it's not about that, unfortunately.
+
+[42:07] I planned on making mineral water and dispensing a-hour video on carbonation. Didn't answer this question. Oh, geez, Louise. Listen. Oh my god.
+
+[42:16] So we had this guy. Sorry, sorry, not sorry, Stas. But like I did this other hour long video of taking apart a spinzall. Yeah. By the way, working on the spinz all hard, so we'll talk more about that in a couple of weeks once we get.
+
+[42:28] We should have within a month information on when the next spinzall batch is going to be, right, Sas? About? Uh yes. Probably about a month. Anyway.
+
+[42:38] Um, so I did this hour long video where I take apart a spinzall to show you everything inside and what can go wrong, mainly for like the, you know, people out there who are out of warranty and you know can't ship the parts in and all this other stuff. And some guy gives me crap about it that it was boring. I'm like, well, why'd you watch it? Like, I wasn't making it for entertainment purposes, you dingus moron. And then he was like, he was like, you know, who spends $799 on something and then and then takes it apart.
+
+[43:10] Oh, you know, I won't be buying it. I'm like, well, if you paid any attention, jerk us, we were now selling it for $499. And sorry for trying to help. Suck eggs and die. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:22] Or as uh, or as uh David Rose, Daniel, uh Daniel Levy is David Rose says, eat glass, which is I think a great insult to give people. Don't you think so? I think it's a good insult. Yeah. Uh all right.
+
+[43:33] I plan on making mineral water and dispensing it through my kegerator. I remember seeing CO2 pressure should be near about 105 PSI per year video uh for soda water, but also red five gallon corny kegs are only rated to about 60 PSI. Well, a little higher. Uh, do you have any experience with pushing the boundaries on uh PSI and corny kegs? If this is a bad idea, I will likely fill a Sankey keg instead.
+
+[43:56] Um second, I wanted Well, no, I'm gonna read all three. You give me two minutes for the full thing. Okay. Right? I'm gonna do all three questions, which are part of the same thing, and then you're gonna give me two minutes for the whole thing, right?
+
+[44:08] Yes. Okay. Uh second, I want to make a homemade perlini, which is a carbonation thing. Rather than spending buku bucks on the real deal, I wanted to fix a corny keg uh post, which is the the you know little connector, a ball connector or pin, uh on a mason jar lid and use a ball lock connector and serve carbonated beverage directly from a mason jar. Do you know what PSI mason jars will hold?
+
+[44:29] Uh, I expect this to be a dangerous experiment and wondered if you might have already explored this. I'm also looking to do this to a spare Vitamix cap to make carbonated Miami Vice cocktails. Uh if you know any other sources where I can read more on pressure and vacuum cooking, I'd appreciate the help. For any statistic needs that Nastasi may have, I'm a 30-year-old male bartender. I live with my girlfriend who is also a bartender, and she doesn't necessarily encourage me to do these kinds of experiments or buy things, but she likes to see me, so she tolerates our lack of space due to uh due to my DIY contraptions and cooking bar uh equipment.
+
+[44:57] All right. Um I'm gonna go ahead and guess that her girl his girlfriend is can is trying to convince him not to pressurize a mason jar. Yeah, yeah. So okay, you tell me when you're gonna start, Sas. Okay.
+
+[45:10] Let's go in reverse order here, semi reverse order. Don't do it to the mason jar. Just don't do it to the mason jar. Just don't do it. Carbonate, like get a bottle, a c uh like a carbon liquid bread carbonator cap and use your ball lock, carbonate in a bottle and pour it in a mason jar when you're done.
+
+[45:29] It's super cheap, and your eyes and your chest will thank you from not having to pick shards of glass out of them. Um, on the Vitapep, it's almost impossible to add any overpressure to a Vitamix container. You can blend a cocktail, pour it in a funnel into a bottle, and then carbonate it. It's gonna foam, but you'll be able to get some carbonation on. Do it that way.
+
+[45:52] Use small amounts in a two-liter bottle with a keg with a with a uh a liquid bread carbonator cap. Now, to your main thing, uh you do not attempt to go full pressurization in a corny keg because as you say, it sucks. Once they go over pressure, they leak violently and they spray and it's a huge nightmare. But if you're gonna put it into a kegerator, you don't need a hundred and fifty 105 psi. 105 psi is only for liquids that will be stored at room temperature at refrigerator temperature, it's closer to 50 psi, okay?
+
+[46:24] 50, 45, 50 psi. So that that should work. Don't put too much pressure on a corny. It won't hurt you because the vent will turn on in time, but it does suck. How is that?
+
+[46:37] Good. All right. Yeah. All right. Uh this is working, right, Sas?
+
+[46:43] Yes. Yeah, all right. Uh all right. Uh Garrett Rotel wrote in via email, Rotel. I wonder, is Rotel tomato like a human being's name, or is Rotel have a meaning that I don't understand?
+
+[46:56] Uh what wait, I'm sorry, what is the tomato thing? You don't know Rotel? No. Uh uh. Neither of you know Rotel?
+
+[47:03] No. So if you've ever spent a lot of time with anybody from Texas, the only way that they make queso dip there is with Velveeta and Rotel Tomatoes, which is a mixture of diced tomatoes and hatched chilies. And it's Rotel. And like that's, I think it's hatch. It's green chilies.
+
+[47:29] Maybe it's not hatch, because not in Mexico. Anyway. It's Rotel is a green chili tomato thing. And it's like go look for it in your supermarket. Next time you make queso, try the rotel.
+
+[47:43] Let me know what you think. But I never really understood what the what Rotel meant, if it had meaning, or if it was just like something. You know what I mean? Anyway, it was in c it was in college that uh that I was turned on to the Rotel because I was talking about making queso, and uh I was slapped across the face uh for not knowing what Rotel was. And ever since then I've been, you know, I've given my due my due uh what's it called?
+
+[48:07] Um due uh respect to uh to Garrett Rotel, I'm assuming no relation to the Rotel family that I'm hoping exists somewhere, like on their tomato and chili fortune. Uh longtime listener, first time caller, well, writer, uh Chef in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I have a question. I'm opening a restaurant next month next month. Good luck.
+
+[48:28] I hope it works out. It's a tough time to open a restaurant. Anyone that was like working on restaurants during this time or opening it, like, you know, I hope this stuff turns around you know quickly so that you guys do well. Um I have 30 pounds of Nanking cherries, which I had never heard of. Nanking cherry is like a bush cherry.
+
+[48:45] Apparently it's softer, and the reason I've never heard of it is you can't buy them because they don't ship well. Uh, I want to preserve. I I obtained said fruit from a friend's tree in his backyard, and they seem to be a little overripe in comparison to your standard cherry. Uh, probably because they were picked two weeks ago. That's a long time.
+
+[48:59] Uh, that being said, I've done some reading and have found they tend to be softer textured cherry, best suited for jam or jelly. Uh, I tried poaching them uh in one-to-one simple, and they tasted great, but they were a little uh bitter, and I would prefer a firmer texture. So my question is: what is the best method to preserve them, and are there any additives that could help with the texture, but not in part a flavor? My plan so far is to stem and score them. Can them make one-to-one simple.
+
+[49:21] Uh, not sure what the intended use is, but most likely for a dessert and would like to keep them whole. Any suggestions on cooking time and temp would be appreciated as well. I have quite a bit of experience canning fruit, just not with these cherries, and was super sad to hear about existing conditions. Had hoped to make it there someday. Well, yeah, I'm sad too.
+
+[49:37] Uh, so on the cherries, uh, I found for you uh a really cool one. If you search cherry brining and finishing, circular of information 624, June 1966, from the Agricultural Experiment Station at Oregon State University in Corvallis. Uh they talk about cherry brining and finishing. And the trick that you might expect it, well, maybe you don't, is that cherries get soft because their flesh breaks down, and you have to strengthen the pectin in the cherry using uh calcium, right? So these guys use a little bit of sulfur dioxide and also hydrated lime, which is uh a calcium source.
+
+[50:14] I think I think what they mean is like cow, like calcium hydroxide, which is a relatively insoluble, so the calcium will just get added if it's needed. The calcium and the fact that the solution is a little bit alkaline will cause the cherry to strengthen up, and the sulfur dioxide will um stop it from going brown and might bleach it a little bit and will also kill uh some of the yeast in it. Now, I don't know how bad that sulfur dioxide is gonna taste, but the hydrated lime is a good idea. Nowadays, um, you might want to try just calcium, a little bit of a little bit of calcium chloride, or uh not so much that you can taste because it does taste bad, but it's that calcium that's gonna help. So if you read that section on cherry brining and finishing, you should get some ideas.
+
+[50:55] And the answer is calcium. Um now, uh, if you can get a hold of Novo Shape, I don't know if anyone sells it. I don't know if Modernist Pantry sells it. Novo shape plus calcium will enzymatically strengthen the cell walls on the cherry and stop them going mushy. But some cherries also go brown, so you'll still need to add something to stop that browning, which is I think what the sulfur dioxide is for in this case.
+
+[51:16] Although a lot of people don't like sulfur dioxide or the smell of it. How'd I do? Uh good. 19 seconds. Woo!
+
+[51:24] Mark from Camloops wrote in. Sorry to hear you about the bar, but mainly for selfish reasons. What compelling reason is there to visit New York City now? Plenty. Like, like uh, I don't know.
+
+[51:34] Um geez. Wow. Like what? I mean, I don't know. You don't know.
+
+[51:41] I mean, I I live here. I don't know. I mean, yeah, everybody come to Dave's house. Yeah, what do you do? City.
+
+[51:49] Well, uh Jen and I, that since they've reopened the botanical garden, Jen and I have been going to the botanical garden quite a lot. Uh they just reopened the conservatory, which is amazing because you need advanced tickets. So it's been very not crowded. Uh there's also the botanical garden I've been going to. And then I haven't gone to the Brooklyn Botanical Garden yet, mainly because that's all I do.
+
+[52:14] That's all I do. Okay. All right. A lot to do. I mean, like, uh what else is there to do?
+
+[52:21] Uh I mean, you can go to parks, you can eat outside. They it apparently they've started indoor dining. I haven't done it yet. Um, outdoor, I'll put it this way: once things loosen up, the ability to have out I had I haven't done the question yet, by the way. The ability I haven't read it yet.
+
+[52:38] The ability to have outdoor dining in New York as a permanent thing for everyone, I think is gonna be 100% plus, especially when we come back. It's going to be like the one thing that Paris had, all that outdoor dining, well, plus the Eiffel Tower and the good cheese and whatnot. Anyway, but like one of the things that Paris had, that outdoor dining thing, we're gonna have permanently, and these things aren't gonna be uh just like you know, pieces of plywood that people put on the ground because we had nothing else to do. I think that's gonna be a net plus. Don't you think that's gonna be nice, Doz?
+
+[53:06] Yeah. My neighborhood was so nice in the summer with that. It was great. Yeah, yeah, that's good. I think that's good.
+
+[53:14] That's something to do. Um, all right. Uh so uh Mark had a question from uh about barbecue. I have a question about barbecue. I've been trying a hybrid low-temp smoke method.
+
+[53:24] I'm curious about the temperature that is recommended by one and all for final internal temperature of the meat. I can't find anyone who recommends an internal temperature of 205 Fahrenheit for the final smoke product. Why is this? And why would I not want to keep the core uh below, I guess I mean below 205? Why would I not want to keep the core below, say 160 to reduce liquid loss?
+
+[53:42] I'm curious. Thanks for keeping up the podcast during COVID. I've been going through the back catalog again and I'd forgotten about the funk-filled commercial breaks and the sweet sweet NPR delivery of the first few episodes. People didn't like the NPR. Wait, I gotta go back and listen to the NPR delivery.
+
+[53:56] Well, for a while, like we were like, hey, maybe, you know, if we tone down the crazy and just went to uh welcome to cooking issues, something like this. I don't know. You have to have a lot of mouth noises and sound metrosexual. Wait, hold on. Let's leave that for a second.
+
+[54:14] I want to know on episode one of cooking issues, did you come in and you just had that intro, like ready to go? I have no idea. Like I don't even know what it sounded like. Do we have it anywhere? Can you call it up and play it?
+
+[54:24] Yeah. Uh well, not yes, I'm gonna insert it right here. Uh can you play it so we can hear it over the microphone? Yeah. Yeah, three minutes.
+
+[54:31] Give me a second. But well, we'll do my two minutes and then we'll come back. Yeah um okay. So listen, I think uh Mark, the issue is this. Like if you're gonna low temp it, you gotta keep it real low.
+
+[54:43] And if you're gonna high temp it, there's no reason to kind of go in between. And that's why I think most of these recipes um are on the on the higher end temp of the range. Because if you do, which I used to do when I was teaching low temperature sous vide, and I will go into this in the book. If you do a lot of side-by-side tests of meat that is cooked very high, like high enough to have the collagen breakdown uh in a relatively reasonable amount of time, like in the 205, right? It it tastes meatier, it has a meatier taste, and people like the flavor of it better, right?
+
+[55:16] And so, uh, if that's what they're looking for, that very savory, meaty taste. On the flip, if you're doing lower temperature, the texture is very different because the the f the meat has never been so drastically overcooked, so it is moister, but also the collagen when it breaks down kind of stays stationary. It doesn't move around. So you don't get the second time I've used lubricity this time, this thing, you don't get that added lubricity from the the gelatin melting into all of the meat. So I think it's a it's it's different.
+
+[55:48] And I think anything kind of in between the two is um kind of not worthwhile. And I think the higher, higher temps um have a meatier taste that a lot of people work. So I think most people just shoot for those high temps, and then even if they're doing it in a bag, they're doing it to control. And this is now I've finished the question. I don't know how much time I have left, but I did comfy.
+
+[56:08] I did comfy. Uh I just opened it, I aged it for a couple of weeks. I used one of the stasher bags, which is those silicone bags, and I did a pressure cooker comfy to get the kind of medius flavor. And remember, you're not losing a lot of moisture because in the pressure cooker, there's nowhere for the moisture to go. So I just salted the duck legs and then put some thyme and you know, pepper and whatnot.
+
+[56:27] Uh and then I put them in this in the this silicone bag upright because these bags can't hold pressure. They they they open themselves when under pressure. And I put it in the pressure cooker, I pressure cooked it for 10 minutes, opened it, did the dip in water to get the fat around it, fat that it rendered, and pressure cooked it another 10 minutes and let it age. Then after it was done, pulled it out and it popped again. So I did the water dip again to get rid of all the air so it wouldn't oxidize.
+
+[56:54] And then I stored it for uh like a couple of weeks and made the confie and it tasted delicious. So I might do some silicone bag comfi in the future. Remember, I told you that wasn't part of the question though. Well that was a whole separate thing. Yeah.
+
+[57:07] Remember, I said this is not part of the question, I'm talking about something entirely different. So you want an extra two minutes on that? I don't know about two minutes. I got it all with only like 15 seconds uh over, and I talked about how to do comfi pressure cooker bag. I think doing pretty good.
+
+[57:20] Yeah. Uh okay, you got me? I found the thing. We might have to do a couple minutes of music here. Not a couple minutes, you know, a couple seconds.
+
+[57:31] That's the original Vicious Vicious Vodka by Amos Milburn. I don't know where I'm at supposed to be my own. Gotta hear the voice of someone who still hadn't been crushed yet. Ready for it, Stuzz? Someone who still had hope for the future.
+
+[57:52] Yes. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. This is Dave Arnold with Cooking Issues, uh show where you call in and talk to us about your cooking issues. Uh every Tuesday from 12 to 10. Wow.
+
+[58:08] Wow. I like it better this way. Good job. After 10 years. Well, well, here's the thing is like we like we we went into the crazy.
+
+[58:17] I don't know how it happened. Was it when was it when Joel Gargano first sent in the heavy metal version? And I and I I started doing a mixture of that intro and Yonker's Raceway. You know, like which is uh, you know, uh what was the equivalent of Yonkers Raceway in uh in Covina? What was your like local where did the monster trucks go?
+
+[58:37] What was it called? Uh the Santa Anita racetrack. And did they have someone at the Santa Anita racetrack? Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Did you have that?
+
+[58:47] Yeah. So everyone has it, right? It's just a question for us. It was Yonkers Raceway. Raceway Park.
+
+[58:52] And then there's also like the guy at the end of Raceway Park. That guy? Anyway. So I think when Joel did his thing, like I started going more Yonkers Raceway, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday monster trucks, and that's how it all happened. I don't know.
+
+[59:03] That's why I think. And then we tried to switch off again. Remember, Stas? And people are like, no, don't. Remember?
+
+[59:08] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From Isaiah Myers on the Instagram. Hey there, my name is Isaiah.
+
+[59:14] I live in Phoenix, Arizona. I have not been to Phoenix in 18 years. How messed up is that? I used to go to Phoenix constantly. What?
+
+[59:23] Why would you want to go there? I mean, you ever been? Yeah. You don't like it? I mean, like, I love that whole Wiley Coyote Sawaro thing.
+
+[59:33] What? Phoenix, just stay in Phoenix. Like, just stay in the city. No, no, no, no. I mean, around Phoenix, like the desert with the Sawaro.
+
+[59:41] Yeah, yeah. Well, when you say Phoenix, I imagine you mean Phoenix. Well, I mean, that's where my in-laws lived. They lived in in Lichfield Park near the Air Force base. And so we go out there, but like, you know, they had a giant Saro in their in their front yard, you know, and an olive tree, and like really delicious um uh grapefruit trees.
+
+[1:00:00] You'd pick it right away, you know. They had to paint that there was sour orange trees lining the streets, and so I would just like we would just run up and down the streets picking free sour oranges and making marmalade and and sour orange drinks, and um yeah, I always had a soft spot for it. I like I like the desert. It's so hot, but I always liked it. Anyway, uh I'm just surprised I've never been back.
+
+[1:00:23] The one of the things that was kind of sad at the time was is that Arizona was I think the one of the last states that still allowed leaded gasoline and like had kind of like weak um emissions kind of standards compared to everyone else. Um, and so you know, Phoenix is in a basin, so when you would fly into Phoenix, you could just see yourself flying into the kind of pollution, but I bet you that's a lot better now than it used to be, right? I don't know. I mean, don't you think LA is cleaner than it used to be, Nastasia? Airwise?
+
+[1:00:54] Yeah. No. Have you read what's going on there? No, no, I don't mean because of fires. I mean in general.
+
+[1:01:01] Uh I don't mean this second. I mean like in general. Obviously, not this second. I don't think so. I remember I used to fly in in the 70s to see my grandparents, and it was like purple in the daytime.
+
+[1:01:17] It was gross. You think it's still like that? Yes. I mean, not with the fires. Yes.
+
+[1:01:22] We gotta go after this question, too. Alright. Uh wait, where'd I get to that? Oh yeah. My name is Isaiah, I live in Phoenix, and I work for a specialty coffee and cocktail company called Provision Coffee.
+
+[1:01:29] Found your show about a month ago and been thankful for all the knowledge I get to take to my wife and impress her with. Anyways, the question is do you have any recommendations for a pumpkin spiced cocktail? I was thinking of pairing with bourbon, but just wondered if you have ever encountered any great one. Thanks for cracking me up and teaching me on the weekly. Alright, Isaiah.
+
+[1:01:50] So uh we never did a pumpkin spiced cocktail. Bourbon sounds good. Stas, what are your feelings on pumpkin spice? I don't really like it. Really?
+
+[1:01:59] Because other people like it or because you don't like it. In other words, do you like it in pumpkin? You don't like pumpkin pie? Okay. Do you like other things with nutmeg and uh ginger and send it?
+
+[1:02:08] So I started the two-minute thing, but we're I'm asking you a question. I like certain pumpkin spice, other pumpkin spice I don't. Do you like spice cake? Yeah. Alright, so you like things like that.
+
+[1:02:19] Okay, okay. Uh uh, I'm where you are now. Okay. Um, what we were doing towards the end is uh Damon Harjoey Rogo at the bar, one of our bartenders, was uh working on a pumpkin spice cream syrup, which is good. So what you do is is you mix uh I don't remember whether we did equal parts because it's real thick of cream and uh and sugar.
+
+[1:02:41] You might need to add a little more cream because it's gonna be real thick, and then you thicken that with uh a little bit of citric acid until it sort of pre thickens and breaks a little bit. Now that cream syrup has to be pumped. You then add your pumpkin spice mixture to that and do pumpkin spice like cream syrup drinks with bourbon, like you're gonna be winning all day long, Kevin. You're gonna be was that Kevin? No, sorry, Isaiah.
+
+[1:03:05] You're gonna be winning all day long, Isaiah. Uh I don't know if it gets cold enough. In I guess it's nice. It gets chilly. The nice thing about Phoenix is that like at night, if you get in a pool and you get out, you evaporate so quickly that even when it's in the 90s, you're like, oh I I feel a little bit of a chill.
+
+[1:03:21] I will keep my towel around me. You know what I mean? Anyway, uh so try that. I have to say, I would like to go back to Phoenix. I would.
+
+[1:03:28] I like Phoenix. Uh do I have time for one more? We're on one two-minute thing. Come on, do we got it? Well, you got one more two-minute section.
+
+[1:03:35] Go. Kevin McHugh writes in via email. Sorry, Isaiah, for calling you Kevin. I was just looking at the next question that's coming down. Uh, I read about making cirrus with the pits of peaches, plums, apricots, etc.
+
+[1:03:44] earlier in the summer. I started saving those pits in a deli container in the freezer. Yesterday, I used them to make a one-to-one simple syrup. I left the pits hole and strained them out after the syrup cooled. Someone has told me this might lead to cyanide poisoning.
+
+[1:03:55] Are you familiar with the triple six song in which you eat so many shrimp you get iodine iodine poisoning? Is there any reason to worry that the sh uh syrup might contain dangerous amounts of cyanide? Is there any part of the process that might be dangerous or could be made less dangerous? I made a Mai Thai with the syrup and feel fine for the record. Love the show, Kev.
+
+[1:04:14] This is super complicated. Um I didn't have time to research it again. I've heard many alternate things. I just don't I didn't you're not using a lot of the syrup, right? You're using a little bit of the syrup.
+
+[1:04:27] My feeling is is that you will not die. This is my feeling. What do you think, Stuzz? Um, I don't I don't actually know. Can someone search on the cooking issues?
+
+[1:04:37] I dealt with this and I went through all of it. And Harold McGee, here you know what? Kevin, Harold McGee is gonna come on to push his new book. And if someone reminds me in advance of when Harold McGee comes on, Harold McGee is the cyanide man, and he actually spent a lot of time uh like thinking in his new book about the fact that cyanide, everyone says it smells like uh like almonds. He's like, doesn't smell like almonds.
+
+[1:04:59] Cyanide doesn't smell like almonds. So we'll talk to Harold about the smell of cyanide and about your your cisnerup when he comes on, hopefully pretty soon to push his new book, which is coming out this month. Sound like a good idea, Anastasia. Alright. So then I get another one.
+
+[1:05:17] I get another one. Uh I get another one. Umtey Zukowski wrote in via email, greetings and good wishes. What is the science behind uh stuff getting stuck to your pan? Again, with McGee, he says uh it's the proteins what are bonding with the with your with your pan.
+
+[1:05:34] There's a Shesteps recipe for paella where you blend 600 grams of stock with 200 grams of rice and pour it into a pan to uh reduce before putting the rest of the rice on top. With so much liquid, how is it even feasible you won't be able to that you will be able to separate that from a not uh nonstick pan? It didn't go so well for me in my cast iron pan. Thanks, Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon. Alright, Monty, uh first of all, how you gotta ask yourself how seasoned is is your pan?
+
+[1:05:58] What the Shesteps is doing, I've never seen before, is kind of interesting. They're par cooking or basically cooking their rice with the paella flavors, they're chilling it, right? And then they are blending some of the cooked rice with stock and then pouring that into a pan and then turning it into kind of a rice pancake, but it's very liquid. So I think what they're doing there is they're trying to heat it evenly and have it kind of reduced down into a batter. Then that batter sets almost like an injira, and you see them like jamming around to loosen on the edges and then pouring oil in.
+
+[1:06:34] I think that's the key to get the oil to slide underneath to get that film to release. Because at the end, after enough water is evaporated from it, it fundamentally turns into a rice pancake. And so then the question is can you get a rice pancake off of your off of your pan? And if your pan's not non stick enough to get it off that way, then it's not gonna work in this situation. Now, that is a strange it was a strange way they cooked all their meats separately and then put some rice on top of the uh this pancake that they had made sure was gonna release beforehand by constantly jabbing the edges of it and then pouring oil in to get the oil underneath.
+
+[1:07:07] And I think that's that that's the the key. But I have not tried their recipe, so I can't say it looked interesting. Uh, but most of those rice things you need to somehow manage to get oil onto the bottom so that the rice can crisp up and then release. So it's about cooking it dry, separated, and then getting your your oil underneath. And um, I need Serena uh you think it's Gereffi?
+
+[1:07:31] Gireffi? I think it's G E is ju or Go Reffi. Jorefi or Goreffi. Uh, I would say. Gh.
+
+[1:07:37] Serena Gareffi. Uh via email. I don't have the answer to this, so I'll be asking people for recommendations. Do you have any bar recommendations for the Dallas Fort Worth area? Since having moved here, I've been avoiding going out because you know, COVID.
+
+[1:07:49] However, I figure I should start accumulating a list and see if there's any places to do. I have never been to Dallas Fort Worth Serena. So if anyone could write in their uh Dallas uh Forth Worth recommendations to us or put them in the chat room and Matt will send them to us. We'll put them on out to you next week, and we'll have to deal with the last couple of questions uh next week, including camel milk. I don't know anything about camel milk, but I'll try to find it out.
+
+[1:08:13] Uh, this has been uh the cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:08:29] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:08:53] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by WisTale. Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Torchies Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with WisTale. Learn more at Wisetale.com. This week on Meet and Three, we have stories about food in large quantities.
+
+[0:23] From bulk buying groups and reasons for stocking up to creative solutions for handling excess waste. We have someone picking up our corks from the wine bottles, and they repurpose them to make buoys for boats and and and like shoes and all these different things. Yeah, because of the COVID, uh, everybody like uh isolated home. Bad to see the people. Face to face is too exciting.
+
+[0:48] So we kind of would treat it like a chance to say hello to the people and to the friend. Listen to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcast. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from New Lab and brrrrrrr. Just saying that because you know I'm doing it from Brooklyn, so I get to say Brooklyn again. Uh excellent.
+
+[1:22] Yeah, yeah. Nastasia the hammer lopez uh with us today, the last time for a long time in uh Stanford. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, how you doing?
+
+[1:32] Uh you're gonna you uh you're going over to the other coast there for uh you're gonna do the quarantining family potting thing over there, huh? Yeah, it seemed like the right thing to do. It's exciting though, right? Yeah, I'll get to it. Get to see a different place.
+
+[1:47] Show still, but it'll be a nice to people. Get to see people, can't wait. Yeah. Well, you want to switch to later? No.
+
+[1:57] Yeah? No. No. I you know. So doesn't matter what time she goes to bed.
+
+[2:08] Yeah. With different reasons though. Like, doesn't matter what time you go to bed, right? You're just like, boom, you're up. Yes.
+
+[2:15] We have uh Matt and his Rhode Island Heidi Hole. How you doing? Indeed. I'm doing great. Yeah.
+
+[2:22] And uh John is also at New Lab, but uh our membership isn't cool enough to let us get two different rooms. So he is uh in like a main space, and I didn't go hyper loud on my uh on my intro, and I didn't do the full thing because I don't know how much people can hear me outside of this little box, and the box I'm in is like heavy on reverb, so I feel like a 50s musician. Like I feel like um boy, I feel I'm not gonna do any like 50s style like crooning stuff, but I definitely feel like I don't know, like I'm in Sun Records, like without the heat and without me being cool, that's how I feel in terms of the reverb levels. You know what I mean? It's like definitely Elvis levels of reverb in here.
+
+[3:07] Anyway. Um I mean, you might as well it's gonna make the rest of the show sound bad. So you might as well do like some nice singing or something at the top to make use of it. Well, that's the thing. I don't know, like people can still hear me out here.
+
+[3:18] It's just like mega reverb. It's like uh why does reverb make everyone sound better, Matt? In terms of singing. I don't I don't know, but I thought this is don't they isn't this like audio engineer 101 stuff, like what the reverbs for? Well, like I but I but I don't know why we perceive it.
+
+[3:35] I mean, I think uh it just softens things, I guess. So like you I don't know. I don't know why everybody prefers it that way. I don't know. Is it when you mess up the tone it just kind of averages it or that was kind of what that was my instinct was that yeah it like helps protect the listeners' ears from your bad technique is my guess yeah I mean I there's only so much of that stuff I can listen to the that like 50s like heavy heavy reverb stuff it's like there's only so much of the stereo tricks from the 70s and 60s that I can tolerate you know what I mean when I'm listening in earphones Stas you do that doesn't bother you right the stereo crap doesn't bother you no it doesn't not at all even on headphones yeah yeah like when they're doing that dumb thing where they sit there and they pan back and forth between the your two ears you're not like oh quit it yeah yeah I'm like quit it quit it you know what I mean you found a way to yell do extra yelling you gotta get your mind to work on that room you know that's the same way with uh like you know you listen to Mozart and you get all the like too many of those like little trilli things you're like stop no I'm the only guy it's only me all right uh I saw someone today my favorite thing for those of you that don't know me uh I I don't like umbrellas I'm fine with people using umbrellas but in New York the umbrella the big umbrella out when it's not raining is like a a severe hazard to my eyeballs Stas you're you're with me on this right yes especially if it's just like sprinkling oh yeah yeah and also like for those of you that don't know, like we have laws in New York that they have to do facade repairs so that people don't die from bricks falling and whatnot.
+
+[5:23] And so, like at any one time, there's so much scaffolding up at New York in New York because the old buildings, you have to put scaffolding up to protect the people on the ground while they're doing all of this work on the facades that they need to do that's mandated by law. And the the end result is there's just a lot of scaffolding around New York. And people walking under the scaffolding with umbrellas, man, man. So that pits me off. What about you, Stas?
+
+[5:48] Yes, bad. Yeah, really bad. So it was raining today in New York, and I'm assuming also in Stanford. Um, but it what like it kind of stopped raining, and you're in that point where it's not really raining, and all those idiots still have their umbrellas up, right? I don't know whether this Nastasi probably knows where I'm going.
+
+[6:05] So I'm sitting here and I had to drive here because I had to bring a bunch of stuff to New Lab for the new Sears all project that we're working on, which Stas will tell me exactly what I'm allowed to say and what I'm not. And I walked in, I was driving in, I was in traffic, and I saw a big gust of wind and three people at the same time, umbrellas inside out. And I was like, yeah, yeah. I love seeing someone's umbrella get turned inside out, don't you? I don't think I experience it the same way you do.
+
+[6:35] You don't the same way, not the same way. I wish I did, it sounds great. Well, it's like, uh look, listen, I don't want people to think that I'm happy that other people are unhappy. It's just like, you know, when you see somebody, I don't know, and they're doing something that you know that if you were walking next to them, you would get poked in the eye, or they would drip some crap on your head, even though you just have a hood on, so you're not taking up any more physical space on these New York City sidewalks, then you absolutely have to take and excuse me, oh sorry, and they're sitting there with this giant umbrella, and when a big gust of wind comes, it goes POW and knocks it inside out, you're like, all right. No, yeah, no, it makes sense.
+
+[7:19] In the context of New York City where umbrellas like should just be illegal uh because they're too dangerous. It makes sense. It's the thing, it's like the look, I'll say this also about New York City. So, like um biking in New York City during the corona time has been relatively joyous. Now, I don't have you know my real bike, so I am riding city bikes, which are you know kind of a nightmare, but like the people who are in New York have been by and large like New Yorkers or people who are used to driving in New York, and the bike traffic has actually been lower than it is normally.
+
+[7:55] So biking has been relatively stress-free. And now it is true, and I've mentioned this, uh, you know, part of biking in New York is to get some of your frustration out because you have to kind of be on point all the time because people are trying to kill you, and you have to worry about pedestrians stepping out in front of you, and blah blah blah. But I like I'm getting a little remember last week I couldn't figure out anything good to do in New York? Yes. Yeah, well, I still haven't, don't worry about that.
+
+[8:21] But but my point is that uh my point is that I feel that more people are coming back into New York because we have a lot more amateurs on the street than we used to, because the like uh on like a couple of days ago, I was out on the bike, and I haven't been almost killed by a car for like months, right? And two times in one ride, I had people like zooming around, taking the left and trying to kill me. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. And uh part of it is because the um part of it is because now that we have all of the street dining, it's still kind of ad hoc, and so people are double parking in the place where the left turn lanes are supposed to be.
+
+[9:02] And so then people just zipping around the left turn and driving through a bike lane and trying to kill you. But uh anyway, so that's my sign that New York is uh New York is coming back, that I almost got I'm I am much more likely to get killed on my bicycle now. So that's uh it's good news, right? Things are looking up. Yeah, things are looking up, you know.
+
+[9:24] Uh all right, so uh let me get to uh the questions. Um we're working on a lot of new stuff for you guys. When I say a lot of student new stuff, like two two and a half new things in terms of Booker Index. And so uh John and I were sitting here, we had to take our machine shop course. So we're a little bit, you know, right, John?
+
+[9:48] We're a little bit behind in terms of getting ready for the show because we were uh learning how to program the local CNC machine, uh, which was fun. John, did you have a good time doing that? Yeah, definitely need about excited to be able to use the machine. Yeah, so I will say this, and we can talk about this. So uh, as you all know, the spinzall, the culinary centrifuge is uh out of stock uh because the factory won't uh hasn't you know agreed to make them yet.
+
+[10:16] So we're trying to do it. But John and Nastasia and I are working on uh a new way that we don't have to have that uh solenoid interlock system because that's one of the things that people kept on breaking. So one of the exciting things is we're gonna try to get rid of that on the on the next go around. For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, ignore. And also uh if you've had a problem with a spinzall where the lights flash because it goes into imbalance mode, uh, we're fixing that too.
+
+[10:42] So if this doesn't mean anything to you, ignore it, right John yeah and if your bearing breaks in your lid hopefully it will make it replaceable yeah yeah yeah we're gonna try to we're trying to fix all of the stuff that like could have gone wrong in a generation one unit now that we've had this big pause where the factory basically forgot how to make them and they're learning from scratch we're trying to use that to our advantage to try to change some of the things that we didn't uh we didn't enjoy now one of the vagaries of building things is that uh you know there's things that they won't change like the t the way that this works is that when you say you're gonna make something at a factory they do a what's called make a tool for injection molding and it's a big hunk of I believe aluminum for us big hunk of it and that's all machined out so like to change something in the tooling if you need to do something minor it's not a problem but if you need to actually throw away that that big tool and make a new one that's a complete nightmare right stuzz huge nightmare yes huge nightmare huge you would not believe what kind of a nightmare that is uh we're not allowed to talk about the other stuff right says no soon though yep we might have something to talk about as it gets closer to the Thanksgiving time we'll know in like a week or two right yeah all right uh and we're and by the way John you don't know this we haven't mentioned this but uh we're gonna make your life a living hell oh swell right right stuff not like it is now you know which is all peachy right well it no but we're adding another layer. We add another layer. It's another layer of hell. It's like, remember, there's seven circles. And we're nowhere near Judas getting his leg chewed off in in the pit.
+
+[12:25] You know what I mean? Like we're nowhere near there. Like, I would say that right now, we're not like at that. You guys read Dante's Inferno ever? A while ago.
+
+[12:35] Well, you know how like the first level of hell is not really hell. It's just kind of like where all the Greeks hang out because they, you know, they didn't have baptize uh baptism, so Christ couldn't have saved them, but they're not really in hell, they're just kind of chilling in the Elysian Fields era uh area. You familiar with this? Uh-huh. I would say that John, in terms of Booker and Dax, John isn't quite that high up.
+
+[12:58] He's not like at that kind of like, you know, like he's not chilling with Plato and Socrates up there in the Legion fields, but he's definitely nowhere near Judas getting his leg chewed off all the time. Nowhere near. So, yeah. You got a good number of pits to descend to, John. That's that's so good.
+
+[13:14] I'm so excited. Yeah. Okay. Uh all right. So uh I'm a little disappointed in the cooking issues crew because Serena wrote in uh last week on on email and said, Do I have any recommendations for the Dallas Fort Worth era uh uh area?
+
+[13:33] Because she's moving there and we have not heard anything from you guys. And I'm sure that there is someone who is hearing us who has been to Dallas Fort Worth and gone out to a good uh bar and or restaurant in Dallas. Does does uh do Chad and Christy still have a bar open in in uh in in Dallas? They they did. I haven't spoken to them in a while.
+
+[13:57] If their place is still open, anything Chad uh Chad and Christie do is uh great. So check that out. But uh we'll figure it out. Uh all right. Also, uh Matt Collins wrote in last week uh asking about uses for dried camel milk.
+
+[14:14] And uh I am I apologize, Matt. I have not come up with any good uses for camel milk, but I did go to a website that was pushing uh camel milk. They didn't have any compelling reasons why you should want camel milk. They're like, it's milk and it's from a camel. What more do you want to know?
+
+[14:32] And I'm like, well, they're like, it tastes like milk, but like from a camel. I'm like, well, that's not really helpful. I've had camo milk cheese. It was uh fine, right? Have any of you guys had any camel milk products?
+
+[14:49] Camel's milk cheese once, but I think that's about it. And then what was your memory of it? I was okay. I mean, I'm glad I tried it, but I don't know if I'd get it again, yeah. But I don't know, yeah.
+
+[15:00] I had the same uh thing with it. I would try it again. I mean, I would eat it. Like pretty much most cheeses, if someone puts them out. You know what the one cheese that I've never gotten my, it's not even really cheese, the one cheese I've never learned to really, really enjoy.
+
+[15:13] Yay toast. Don't love it. You guys familiar with the yay toast? No. No.
+
+[15:20] It's that, so like I had a I had a uh a trauma with it when I was a child. So it's you know, a Scandinavian uh uh whey-based, hue, hui-based cheese, where um you make the whey-based block, believe it's whey-based, and then you cook the whole thing until it goes brown all the way through. It becomes sweet and it's brown all the way through, and you slice it off in like these, like you're supposed to, I think, chip it off and then like heat it on things like in these kind of thin slices. So when I was a kid in the 70s, like any cheese that was that color was a smoked cheese. So like you know, like when I was a kid, it's like you had real cheeses, and then you just had that whole section of the quote unquote cheese area at wherever you were buying them, where it was all of those the equivalent of smoked gouda.
+
+[16:12] You guys know what I'm talking about? That like that color, that smoked, you know what I'm talking about, or no? No. Yeah. All right, so like for maybe for you, Nastasia, like a a smoked skamorza, like that color, you know what I'm saying?
+
+[16:23] Where it's like it's got it's got like a pellicle on the outside, it's smoked colored. This is what yay toast looks like. So I buy it, or I have my mom buy it because whatever, I'm seven or eight, and and we bring it home. I'm all excited because I think I'm having some sort of like weird Scandinavian smoked thing. And then when we slice in to get a big piece, I realize that's not a skin, it's that color all the way through.
+
+[16:51] And then I take a bite of it and it's like real dense and like kind of real dense and fudgy. And I was just like, this is not cheese, I hate this, this is the worst, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. And then I have not been able to. I should now, as an almost 50-year-old man, like just go on a yay toast, which I think how you pronounce it, G J, whatever, however you pronounce that. I need to go on like a thing where I'm like, I I need to like learn to love it.
+
+[17:19] I've tried that with the only other thing, melons, obviously, I don't like except for watermelon, but that you know is just me. I haven't been able to get myself to like natto. Have any of you been able to get yourself to like natto? No. And you had already left Japan on that.
+
+[17:34] Were you you were you there for the breakfast when they made me the Nato, which I actually enjoyed because basically you couldn't taste the natto as all the other stuff was so delicious, or had you already left Japan? I had already left. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, I don't know.
+
+[17:47] So camel's milk cheese was not like that. If it was in front of me, I would eat it. Is there any cheese that you guys wouldn't eat? I don't like blue cheeses. Any blue cheese?
+
+[17:56] No. Hmm. Okay. John. I can't think of anything.
+
+[18:04] I mean, again, like not a huge fan of the camel's milk cheese, but I, you know, like I'm not gonna seek it out again before it was put in front of me, I'd probably either. Yeah. Matt. Uh, I also don't really do the blue, the moldy cheese, the blue cheese. But you know.
+
+[18:18] Yeah. And that's any of those blue cheeses. Uh, I mean, I'll try them, but I just I don't actually like go for it. Also, Chef Joanna, what is she saying in the chat? Something about live maggot cheese.
+
+[18:28] Where'd that window go? Uh, I've never had that. I've never had that, but uh my my the only person I know who has actually had it is dead. It's my stepfather's, you know, father, you know. Umnected.
+
+[18:49] And like, no, no, no, no, no. They're not connected, but I'll never forget, like, you know, when he so, you know, when he went back to uh he went to tour Italy uh sometime in the 80s, um, because he had actually never been there, which is strange. He went back to the town where his family was from and all this other stuff, you know, where his dad was born. And uh, and someone there broke open uh the big cheese and there was the maggots, and he was like, Yeah, and they just took the bread and they were like pop up and they they picked it all up and they and they ate it. And he would tell he would say that like constantly.
+
+[19:20] And so like it always stuck in my head, even as a kid, that there was this thing that existed, but I've never I've never had it. I mean, I would find it difficult to enjoy it. I mean, I would have to try it, but I would find it difficult to enjoy it. Um about you guys. I think I could do it.
+
+[19:41] I don't know. I got a bunch of other if I could do it. Some might be a good one. On the line do this. I don't know.
+
+[19:47] Like the other one that's weird is there is a there's a cheese that comes from right near the um Austrian uh Italian border, uh, where they take that's uh uh something similar to Quark, which is a soft cheese, and then they just incubate it with cheese mites, and then it isn't like a mimelet where there's like a hefty mite layer, it's mites all the way through. It's just mites. Cheese mites only, only cheese mites. Uh I forget the name of it, uh, but uh I would eat that before I would. I I would take a big old bite of cheese mite cheese because I eat cheese mites constantly.
+
+[20:28] You know what I mean? Like I like cheese mite doesn't bother me, but it's like uh I would probably like in in order, I would do the cheese mite cheese way before I would, you know, with gusto pound a you know a whole bunch of the Maggati cheese, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Also, I missed I missed what this was in response to, but 91 Alex is in the chat saying Norwegian here, you are definitely not supposed to heat Brunost.
+
+[20:56] Or that's how you pronounce it? I have no idea how to do it. What are you supposed to do with it? Ask him what the hell you're supposed to do with it. How do I learn how to like this stuff?
+
+[21:05] Help me out. What are we supposed to do with this? Alright, so we'll wait for him to get back. And so then I will uh the reason I was going, the reason this was a good segue from uh Chef Joanna with the Mike with the uh maggot cheese is on the blue cheese. I know Nastasia hates conceptually, I won't even say the S word, mold mold in general, right?
+
+[21:26] Is is it part of that or is it the taste or both? It's the taste. It's more the taste, yeah. Same. Alright, right.
+
+[21:33] Yeah, all right. Yeah, because you don't mind, you don't mind like a uh uh a moldy layer on the outside of your salumi, right? So that's right. Yeah, yeah. All right, all right.
+
+[21:43] Uh all right, cool. And I can't ask Matt that because uh he doesn't eat salumi. Uh do not. Yeah. Although, when did it become that we as a group of people here would use the word salumi instead of what I grew up with was cold cuts.
+
+[22:00] You gonna get a cold cup platter? Yeah, I'm gonna get a cold cup platter. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. Uh okay, wait, we got two.
+
+[22:07] We got two uh people from Scandinavian countries weighing in here. All right, let's give it to me. In Sweden, we use Brnost slash Messost as a spread on sandwiches, and then 91 Alex comes back with uh I'm I'm so sorry about all this pronunciation. Uh guy ghetos, guytast just means goat cheese, brunost brown cheese is what it's called. I don't like it myself, but people he just put it on their bread with butter and often some sort of jelly like strawberry or raspberry.
+
+[22:39] Yeah, it's just not for me. That's also like are are you guys cream cheese and jelly people? No. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah.
+
+[22:48] I mean, I can eat it. I can eat it, but I'm never like, you know what I really want to do? I want to get a bagel and cream cheese and some jelly. It's like I also don't eat cinnamon raisin bagels. I mean, I will eat a cinnamon raisin bagel.
+
+[22:59] I'm not saying that I find it repellent, but uh, but you know, like a I I have not had a cinnamon raisin bagel in probably 20 years. You guys are you sweet baking? My wife gets like egg and cheese sandwiches on cinnamon raisin bagel, and I just think that's scandalous. That's perverse. Yeah.
+
+[23:20] That's perverse. If I had known it before we got married, I mean. It would have been a that's a that's over. Yeah. No.
+
+[23:27] Egg and cheese on cinnamon raisin, huh? Hey, look, to each their own. The one thing I'm learning is that, you know, there's a in in life, there's a lot of different opinions out there. What do you think about uh cinnamon raisin, egg and cheese, Stas? I could do it.
+
+[23:41] Yeah? Would you enjoy it or would you just be able to do it? I'd enjoy it. Alright. And do you like a cinnamon raisin bagel in in general?
+
+[23:48] Yeah, yeah. Now, a cinnamon raisin bagel, here's the thing. So, like, is there a difference with a cinnamon raisin bagel over what kind of style you like? Stas, you're more of a puffy bagel person, right? Not a not a hard, yeah.
+
+[24:00] So I think like if you're a puffy bagel person, I think you're more likely to like a cinnamon raisin bagel because I think a cinnamon raisin bagel probably shows better in a puffy bagel style. Yeah. It's a guess. Uh all right. So, by the way, I haven't heard anything that's gonna make me run out and get this brown cheese and like, because like none of that stuff is stuff that I would normally do.
+
+[24:23] I guess you also have to slice it real thin. Someone's gotta get get back to me on the brown cheese thing of some reason why we should uh we should be doing it. Alright. Uh now, uh Brian Cottie wrote in. Uh Cotty?
+
+[24:38] Isn't it Brian Crady? I don't remember. Did you get that off the email right? Anyway. Uh hey David, the crew, love the show.
+
+[24:44] Looking to make chewing gum with juniper flavor. My goal is to eventually make a gin and tonic gum inspired by the three-course dinner gum from Willie Wonka. Well, if it's inspired by the three-course dinner, you gotta have three different cocktails in it. Three different cocktails. Can't do one, right?
+
+[24:59] And the I don't know whether anyone has yet figured out uh they haven't. Like a because otherwise someone would have done this already, right? Like a clean flavor release whereby like the first ten chews you you cleared one flavor through, and then only then the rest became soluble. No one no one's figured that out. But that would be kind of cool.
+
+[25:19] You would you would do that. I mean, if we could make that, we already would have made that, right, Nastasia? Right, yes. Yeah. So anyway, so we're we're on the gin and tonic uh thing, not three courses, but I get it, inspired by, because it's a great movie.
+
+[25:32] Who do I know that doesn't like that movie? There's someone I know, it's not one of us, right? I don't have to cut any of you guys off, right? No, it's not me. I didn't do it.
+
+[25:45] I'm just saying, like, if you don't like the original Willy Wonka, like you don't like Gene Wilder? You don't like, I don't what I don't understand how not to like it. There is someone I know, maybe someone in my family who doesn't like it, and I just don't understand it. Someone give me a plausible reason why you would not like that movie. Okay.
+
+[26:09] Okay. I mean, I'm sure there is a plausible reason because someone who's close to me, I can't remember who it is, doesn't like it, but whatever. Uh I'll figure it out eventually. Okay. The ingredients for five gum.
+
+[26:21] Is five gum a brand of gum that you guys are familiar with? Oh no. Oh, I don't think so. No, all right, me neither. Uh the ingredients for five gum are sorbital, gum base, glycerol.
+
+[26:35] What? No, I recognize the brand. I recognize the packaging. From like a lot of gas stations. Yeah, it's pretty popular.
+
+[26:43] Gas station gum? Is that is that is that uh is that uh John's uh subtle put down? Gas station gum. No, no, we'll buy gum. I mean, I don't know the bodega.
+
+[26:55] Yeah. Oh, speaking of bodegas, uh, we'll get back to it. Uh bodegas of Manitoba stations of the city. Is it gas stations? Oh, dude.
+
+[27:06] I don't agree because you have a personal relationship with your bodega. You don't have a personal relationship, I don't think, with your gas station, unless you're unless it's freaking Gomer Pyle and it's like freaking Andy Griffiths, but who lives like that? I mean, when I when I used to live in a gas station, it's like I mean, sorry. When I used to live in a in the suburbs, it's been so many years since I've lived in the suburbs that I can't even remember what how how to speak about it. But it's like you go to the gas station.
+
+[27:38] I self-serve anyway, because I'm cheap and I don't live in New Jersey, and uh because also I don't want to deal with humans. Do you want to deal with a human being nostasi when you're getting your gas? Uh pumping it, no. Nah. Nah.
+
+[27:51] Why? Because you do do you not trust like a little bit of me doesn't want them to like sit there and go shoop, shoop, shoop, shoop at the end. You know what I'm saying? The only time I've ever felt in danger while having gas put in my car was at one of those uh New Jersey pumps because I like taking me out of the equation, I forgot to turn the engine off, and this guy just starts filling my car up. It's like they don't care.
+
+[28:17] I mean, I would never do that to myself. It was way less. And they they claim safety is part of the reason for doing this. It's insane. Okay, listen, I want someone to call me out on this and tell me, like, you know, Zoolander aside, which has the best gasoline fight like uh ever in it.
+
+[28:37] And like, you know, one of the classics of movies is the gasoline fight from Zoolander. But I mean, here's the real in the real life, right? You pull up to your to the gas pump, right? And there's a gas pump right on the other side of you, and there's a gas pump right behind you, right? And you're sitting in there pumping gas, and person drives up right behind you and sticks their motor right in your butt while you're pumping gas and you don't blow up.
+
+[29:04] Am I right? I mean, there's other people with running motors everywhere. So it's like, you know, and not only that, but like they let you, which is crazy, like pump gas into a bucket. You're like, you could take your the thing, stick it into a bucket and pump gas into it, right? So it's like I get like not smoking when you're doing that because have you ever you ever lit a gas fire, Matt?
+
+[29:30] No. Okay. When you're lighting a gas fire, like, and they all the time in the movies, I think they get this wrong. Like they dump gas all over somebody or something, and then they sit there talking about how they're gonna light that person on fire or thing on fire for a long time. There's conversations, and like, you know, and then you know, you see the person throw the match, and it's like, no, and then they try to put out the match right before it hits the person.
+
+[29:58] Yeah, yeah, no. Here's what gas does gas vaporizes and makes a giant explosive cloud around whatever it's poured on. So if you dump gas on the ground or on your enemy or whatever, and sit around like shooting the breeze for a while before you decide to light a match, you're gonna get a big old fireball like of uh fire in you know in your face, right? So it's like open containers of gas or like big spills of gas on the ground are like soup dupe dangerous. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[30:30] But at a gas station, like have you ever seen that happen? No. On movies, well, in Zoolander, and again, it was amazing. It was amazing. Um you should not smoke near uh obviously near a gas station.
+
+[30:46] But uh, how do we get on the gas station? Oh, we're talking about knowing your gas station uh person. Anyway, I feel like you don't know them like you know your bodega. That's all. Anyway, and the only person I know, uh, so like I I know that there are whole cultures in the United States and elsewhere where it's like your gas station also has like the good barbecue or the good whatever, but it's like up here where you know, in the northeast, if you come from one of those places where a gas station maybe is known for having good food, not here, okay?
+
+[31:17] Like up here in the Northeast, the gas station doesn't have good food. So, like one of the things that we used to like to make fun of uh, you know, Peter Kim about, you know, uh, you know, director emeritus uh of the uh Museum of Food and Drink and you know, friend of ours, friend of the show, was that he would go in to a gas station and buy a moldy egg salad sandwich. Who buys an egg salad sandwich at a gr at a at a at a gas station? Notices it's moldy and eats it anyway. Remember that, Stas?
+
+[31:44] That's not true. He took the mold off and then put it in the tray that it came in, and then he ate the sandwich, and then he looked down, saw there's still peace. He ate that and he was like, Oh crap, I ate the mold. That's how happening. Yeah.
+
+[32:01] Yeah. It's not like he was like, mmm. Well, I mean, like, I think it's a pretty aggressive move to buy the egg salad sandwich at a gas station. Yeah, first of all. Like, it, you know, you know, he claims it was his uh years in the Peace Corps that makes him immune to any sort of stuff.
+
+[32:20] Although uh I don't care how much Peace Corps you did, Aflatoxin is aflatoxin all day long. And you're like, you know, yeah, he's powered through that sandwich and was and the thing is is it remember he tried to make us feel bad for thinking it was kind of crazy, right? Yeah. That was a great trip for you, Nastasia. Great.
+
+[32:42] That was the best trip ever because that was the egg salad, that was the bathroom incident. Yep. Which we which we won't go through again. And it was also when Peter insulted that whole uh town and was incredibly mean to that uh to that poor student, anyway. Yep.
+
+[32:59] It was like the it was the that was the best work day of your of your life, maybe. Yes, maybe this episode is brought to you by WisTale. Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Portuguese Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with Wistail. WisTale is a state-of-the-art learning management system built to engage and empower your workforce.
+
+[33:28] With a modern user interface and intuitive course authoring capabilities, Wisetale has helped hundreds of businesses achieve their growth goals. Plus, Wisetail has experts on call to help you bring your vision to life with their world-class client success team. Come see how Wisetale's award-winning training platform can go to work for you. As a special offer, HRN listeners are eligible for their first month free. Learn more at Wisetail.com slash H R N.
+
+[33:57] That's Wisetale.com slash H-R-N. W-I-S-E-T-A-I-L.com slash H-R-N. Terms and conditions apply. Visit their website for more details. Alright, we're back on the gum.
+
+[34:12] So sorbitol, gum base, glycerol, manitol, natural and artificial flavors, and then less than 2% of hydrogenated starch hydrolysate, which I didn't get a chance to look up, sorry. Aspartane, you know what that is. Those are both artificial sweeteners, which you won't have to deal with if you don't want to use artificial sweeteners. Soy lecithin and uh BHT to maintain freshness, colors, blue number one, uh lake blue and red 40. All right.
+
+[34:43] I see some sugar alcohols, but I don't know what gum base is or how uh how to source it. All right, uh, I'm gonna answer this first. Go to modernistpantry.com and just buy the gum base. Uh they used to sell it, I'm sure they still do. If not, I think Chef Rubber sells it.
+
+[34:57] In the old days, um, you it used to be natural, so it's from Chicle. So the the plant, Chikle, which is also makes a fruit, which is I think one of the sapadillas, but I'm not sure. Or Sapote, it's one of those things. Is a chicle tree. You score it, the resin comes out, uh, and they make original chicle was from that.
+
+[35:16] And from the word chicle comes chiclet. And so uh, you know, you know, chiclets, which do you guys use chiclets as a gum, or or is that just a childhood thing? For me, yeah. What'd you say? Childhood.
+
+[35:33] Childhood. All right. Uh it's kind of an unfortunate shape, right? I mean, it's like it's never enough. Like, you can't just eat one, like one chiclet isn't enough to like freshen you or do anything.
+
+[35:43] It's like you kind of like I I'm a bigger fan of the strip shape of gum. You guys? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[35:51] Uh so, anyways, so the original person who I believe was from around here somewhere, is like some sort of I'm getting a kind of a Brooklyn mental vibe out of this person, but I can't say for certain because I didn't look up the history before I came on the show. So it was one of those situations where literally dude had a huge vat of this uh this chicle, like latex resin that he, not latex gut, but you know, resin stuff, chicle that he had, and he's like, What the hell am I gonna do with this? One of those kind of a situations. And he added flavor to it and sugar, and was like, Oh, now people could chew on this. And there's a long, long history of people chewing on tree exudates, for instance, uh the sweet gum, liquid embar styracophula, makes a something you can chew on.
+
+[36:32] You can chew on uh kios mastica, which is the you know, the resin uh gum mastic uh resin, you can chew on that, and because that stuff, because the resin is not water soluble, whatever flavors in it that is water soluble, will get slowly released into your mouth, and then the resin you just keep chewing on it until you get sick of it or until you get a headache. Is there anything worse than not being able to spit out gum because of where you are, and then you get that headache from over chewing? You guys know what I'm talking about? No. No.
+
+[37:02] Never got it. As soon as the flavor is as soon as the flavor is gone in the gum, and Harold McGee has a lot to say. When he comes on Harold McGee's coming on in November when his book comes out, by the way. He he agreed to that, I guess. Oh, is he?
+
+[37:18] Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to have him on whenever. I thought I thought he was gonna wait until the book came out, but whatever. I mean, I'm happy to have him on anyway, but we could talk to him. So one of his favorite stories is that there was a guy who uh was a kid during World War II and noticed that and gum was constantly running out.
+
+[37:37] So what he noticed was, you know, you because that it was this they didn't have it, is that if you took the gum and you chewed it until the flavor was gone, and then you added a little bit of sugar to the gum, the flavor, the mint flavor would come back. And it's all about the way your mind integrates flavors that are already there. So like once the sweetness is gone and you've already had the mint flavor in your mouth for a while, assuming it's mint gum, you're you can no longer perceive the mint even though it's there. And if you hit it with a little bit of sugar, your mind reintegrates the mint and the mint pops up, which is one of you know, it's it's one of the stories that um you know Harold always liked to use to tell it at the classes when he would teach him. Anyway, anyhow, huh?
+
+[38:14] So uh so now the gum base that you buy now is not typically from Chiklay, it's synthetic. And I don't know what they make it out of, but everyone buys the same one. And then you just get your flavorings, and you don't have to use uh, you know, aspartame and all that, you can use you know sugar, and then you uh you basically heat it in a microwave and it and it melts. And then you stir in all of your stuff, and if it gets too uh uh cold you just nuke it oh for a second again and then you roll it out uh like a dough and so you know then you can dust in in between with like cornstarch powdered sugar or something like this uh and then you roll it out and then when it gets cold you cut it into gum strip shapes and then there you go it's it's easy peasy and like I say last time I checked Monitors Pantry sold the gum base and if not Chef Rubber probably sells it. And the rest of the stuff you don't need to worry about.
+
+[39:11] You know if you want to add coloring add coloring to it. You know do you do you that answer the question guys or no? Yep. Yeah all right um my earphones are strangely running up okay you guys still hear me or no? Yep.
+
+[39:29] Yep. All right. And we have someone oh from Pittsburgh because I know because they uh they went in with the yins. I've never met an actual I know some people from Pittsburgh but I've never met someone who is an actual Yin's person. Have you guys actually met a Yin's person?
+
+[39:47] So like you know how like in like some parts of New York New Jersey Staten whatever you use you use guys? Oh okay yeah. Pittsburgh yins. It's like a thing. And so like if you're from there you know but if you don't you know if you don't you do know what uh anyway whatever I'm not gonna get into it.
+
+[40:06] Uh how you're doing it's been a while what's the deal with chamber stoves uh my wife and sister-in-law both claim they're wonderful things uh and that they should get them and it is worth the many thousands of dollars and will cook things so well. I feel like if they were so great, I would have heard of them sometime in the last 41 years. I would have seen them in one of the thousands of houses I've been in over the years. I figure they must be terrible. Tell me who's right.
+
+[40:29] Thanks, Zach from Pittsburgh. Well, Zach, I uh I have to say I enjoy the way you posed that question. Um yeah. Uh I all I I like uh I love, I do this all the time, and I think it always, you know, if if you want a particular answer, it always helps to shade it in the direction you want to go, right? This is like another thing I've always said, like when you're doing um, like the big difference between doing food demonstrations and actually serving people food like in a restaurant situation, is that in a food demonstration, I get to tell them that they're gonna like it beforehand, and so it makes it a lot easier to kind of go outside of people's comfort zones.
+
+[41:07] Uh anyway, uh, and also like uh Riedell, you know, is it Riedel or Redel? It's Riedel, right? The glassware people, it's Riedel, actually, because it's R, it's uh I E. Anyway, so um I was at uh a seminar once given by I think he's dead now, but like the the elder was the elder in the Riedel family, and he gave this amazing demo about because I don't know if they do they still push Riedel glasses based on the individual shape, makes the individual wines taste better. I don't know.
+
+[41:38] Hmm. Anyway, that that was the shtick. And and you know, and for a long time, and maybe still for all I know, I haven't been glass shopping in a long time. People still kind of like they still sell them this way. Was that you needed to have like an like a huge number of different glasses in your house because each individual glass was tailored to each kind of wine.
+
+[41:58] And Riedel came out also with a bunch of spirits-based glasses where they did the same thing. And I went to a presentation that Riedel did, and by the way, I like Riedel Glassware, it's it's good. I I have it in my house, I use it, right? I don't have a billion different. Well, well, because my name's Nastalcia, and I have my monocle.
+
+[42:14] You need to get us the monocles. We're gonna do the monocles, and you never did. It was a gift. Yeah. It was a gift, it was a gift.
+
+[42:25] It was a gift. Oh, nice. Are you taking those to California with you? Are you gonna use like uh uh jelly jars when you go out there? Yeah, all right, yeah.
+
+[42:34] I use Zoltos. I would not, I would not be near by the way, Riedel has a more expensive line of hand blown stuff. And I think I said this on the air. The guy uh I once interviewed the son. This is like 20 years ago.
+
+[42:48] I interviewed the son, who's probably now running the company, and he took two of their more expensive hand-blown glasses and he clinked them together, and he goes, That is the sound of money. And then he just stepped away, and I was like, I'm gonna use that someday. I don't know for what, because everything we have is like the sound of the sound of despair, right? Everything we clink together, Stas is like that's the sound of nothing much happening, right? The spins all breaking.
+
+[43:15] That's the sound of the spinzel breaking. It's fine. Um anyways, so where was I on this? Oh, so yeah, so the the elder Riedel, like had the elder Riedel had this had this thing where he would walk you through the different glasses. So there was all these glasses there that you know he had, and he would walk you through tasting it, and like at the end, you literally believed you could only drink bourbon out of the bourbon glass, and you could only drink Scotch whiskey out of the Scotch whiskey glass, and that if you did anything else, you would be insulting the spirit.
+
+[43:51] You know what I mean? He was a genius at getting you to go where so I have no idea whether or not anything he's saying was actually true, just because he was so good at getting people to know what was gonna happen. Now back to the chambers show uh stove. I have never used a chambers stove. I have never seen a chamber stove, and I had to Google what it was, as did John, right?
+
+[44:13] Yep. Yeah. So I for those of you that don't know, Chambers was a stove. They had a patent a long time ago in I think the teens or twenties of the last century. And the main shtick, and they were manufactured almost continuously up until the 1980s.
+
+[44:32] They then went out of business. Someone tried to resurrect them again in the early 2000s, and then I believe they were resurrected again in 2015. This is all according to the Wikipedia. But the shtick, the shtick of the chambers was that it was extremely well insulated. So I'll say this.
+
+[44:53] One is you build, you get a huge, huge thermal mass, and then you just take a lot of energy and you heat it up, and then that leaks energy out constantly, and you keep adding energy, and that's how you make everything stay at a nice constant rock solid temperature, right? So uh most big like kitchen stoves, like a Multaney or a Bonet or you know, anyone like that. What's the other like Heston, right? It's just huge chunks of metal. They throw a whole bunch of gas into it, and it's just hot as hell, right?
+
+[45:28] That's how like French tops work, which you might call a flat top or whatever. What do you like, John? You like French top, flat top? What do you call it? Flat top?
+
+[45:34] I thought we've always called it French top, but yeah. All right, whatever. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? Anyway, so the chambers was a little bit different. The chambers had extra insulation in it.
+
+[45:46] And their idea was is that the fire was uh also the fire, I think was not exposed, which was kind of new for that time. So I don't know how many people still have a gas stove with gas where you can see the gas running. I used to have one. I found an old uh for maybe like five, six years. I used uh an oven that I had found on the street on 38th Street that someone had kind of thrown out and it was from the like 30s and it was all enameled, it was kind of beautiful.
+
+[46:13] They had knocked the legs off, so I had it on bricks. Talk about unsafe, right? It had no thermostat, so you would just sit there and adjust the gas level inside, like you would for a range for the oven. It was kind of hardcore. So the chambers oven goes back to when that's how people were operating their ovens.
+
+[46:30] So it had a thermostat in it. Ooh, right? And then they would turn the gas on in it, I believe in a separate box, heat the oven up, and then when the gas turned off, they would close the damper so it wouldn't lose heat. So it was all about keeping the heat inside the uh oven. Uh so presumably I guess it would use less gas and it would also uh insulate better so it wouldn't get your kitchen as hot.
+
+[46:56] They then had a bunch of other uh things they added, like wells that you could cook soup in without having a lot of uh energy escape. They also all of them had griddle tops or flat tops uh that you could use, which I actually I love a I love a griddle top. I know a lot of people don't like necessarily having a griddle top, but if you do a lot of that kind of cooking, griddle top is nice, nice. Um, anyway, and they had a lot of kind of cool features that made them kind of cool. And I think they became cool again recently because I think Rachel Ray had said on the Wikipedia, like uses one and loves it.
+
+[47:29] So I don't really know why you would want one now as opposed to a thoroughly modern unit. But um people seem to like them, they they look nice. I've never used one. Is that a decent answer? Is that okay?
+
+[47:41] Digital audio tapes in the chat and said I used a chamber stove for a bit, the extra insulation helped with making pizza. Oh, because you could get it hotter? I that I believe that was the implication. So what I used to do there is just bypass the thermostat. And if you like, don't do this, please don't do this.
+
+[48:01] But uh you bypass your thermostat and turn it back into a straight pipe oven machine again. And the problem with this is is that it's easy to go overboard. So like I got in big trouble because I scorched one of my cabinets because uh I mean, nothing's gonna happen to the oven. The oven's gonna get up to you know eight hundred degrees, no problem. But um again, I don't know how high one of these chambers can go, but that's a it's a good point.
+
+[48:28] That I don't know though. Like if you're gonna do just that though, maybe maybe like I would I would get a normal oven and then spend the extra several thousands of dollars on getting like you know, a pizza oven that you could have in addition, you know what I mean? Just saying. The other thing is is that I the chambers, like most newer ovens, what's if you are gonna get a new oven anytime in the next like 10, 15 years, like it's better have like, you know, um like a super convection. Look, I hate the term air fry.
+
+[48:59] I know I've said this before, I hate air fry, but the actual function where they have a much faster convection is great, right? And if also like a steam injection, if you like anything that's gonna allow you to do steam injection or to have anything that approaches like an impingement oven or a fast air convection, like that's the future for sure. You know what I mean? Whether quartz is the future, I don't know, but like that's definitely the future of for sure. And also, I think more and more people are gonna kind of have their big oven that they use for standard stuff, and then they're gonna get the whatever the current equivalent of like you know, a brevel smart is because it just they're not that big, they don't heat up your kitchen that much, and because they're small, it's kind of easier for them to get up to those like temperatures quickly and kind of stay there.
+
+[49:45] So they take a lot less energy and a lot more efficient. I have to be honest, I do I do 80 to 90 uh well in the summer a hundred percent, but like even the rest of the time, most of the time I don't crank up the big oven unless I'm doing sheets of cookies or something big like a like a turkey. I mean, I I'm mainly using a small, uh a smaller thing like a uh like the Breville Smart Air, but it's big it's big for a toaster oven, but it's relatively small. Um when you had both, what would those of you that have both? What do you what do you use more often?
+
+[50:21] Uh toaster oven. Toaster oven? Yeah. Yeah. I remember a time when the toaster oven was like kind of like a novelty.
+
+[50:30] People didn't really care about the the toaster oven. It wasn't seen as like a legitimate like cooking implement, it was just there for reheating and for toasting. And I think over the past 10 years it's really kind of come in into into its own. You know what I mean? Um remember that guy who wanted to uh turn his regular toaster sideways and and put the pizza in it?
+
+[50:51] Yeah, I wonder what happened with that. I need to hear back from them on whether their pizza was any good. You know what I mean? Uh Stas, do you like a regular toaster or do you like a toaster oven when you have them? Uh I've never owned a toaster oven.
+
+[51:05] I like toasters. You like toasters? Yeah. What what style of toaster do you like? Are you like do you like a fancy toaster, like a dual it or like any old toaster, like a Hamilton Beach?
+
+[51:14] What's your toaster feeling? No, we just had like an old one at home, like a like an old, old one. So I don't really know. I haven't had one since home. How much do you hate when like someone puts something in the toaster and it sticks into the thing and then you can't get it out and it touches the element, and then you get you see that one wisp of smoke and you know your host.
+
+[51:35] You know you're ruined at that point because you know you're not gonna get it out in time, and then you're trying to gouge the thing out while it's a little bit more. My mom would use a fork, and I was so scared. You should have been scared. We had this conversation, I believe, when we were talking about the person reheating the pizza. Yeah.
+
+[51:50] That thing's electrically live. Why you ask a question if you're not gonna try it? Because they want to have their name bread on the pair. They want to have their name red on the air. By next week, I want you to put a piece why am I saying this?
+
+[52:07] Don't put the pizza in the toaster, Dave. Shut up. Shut up. I feel like you're trying pretty hard to have him not do this. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[52:13] Yeah. I know, I know. The reason he didn't do it is because he listened to the show. Oh no. I'm such a moron.
+
+[52:21] I'm such a moron. I can't help it. I'm sorry. Uh Peter Ross writes in, John, you're gonna have to answer this question. Uh hi there.
+
+[52:28] I've read that using low ABV-that's alcohol by volume. Low ABV spirits in a spinzall is bad news. Is that true? Um, I never heard that. You heard that, uh John?
+
+[52:38] I have not heard that either. What would be the reason? I don't know. Maybe high ABV spirits. You do?
+
+[52:47] Okay. So super high ABV spirits, the problem is going back to the gas fire portion of the show, is that um it becomes a it becomes an issue if you're doing very high alcohol spirits that you're creating an alcohol vapor cloud, which can be dangerous, especially if you're a smoker. So, i.e. if you're using it in Europe. Just kidding, Europe.
+
+[53:08] Um, but it's like uh so I know I don't recommend high ABV spirits for that reason. And also, if you're using alcohol, you really want to make sure that it's cold, again, so that you're not volatilizing, and also the warmer the alcohol is, the more um alcohol will evaporate off. So you know, one of the main things that you're looking for when you're spinning alcohol in the spinzall or in any centrifuge, not just our centrifuge, but any centrifuge, is that um you want to prevent the alcohol from vaporizing because it lowers the ABV. Now, one of the problems you might have for certain techniques in the spinzall is that um when you're let's say you're doing something like a banana houstino where you you're blending a liquor and a banana or anything really, and you're spinning out the solids, because there's liquid in the banana, you're lowering the proof of the alcohol, right? And so what you're doing is you're lowering the stability.
+
+[54:01] So maybe what people are saying about centrifuging low alcohol products is that um the alcohol level becomes even lower when you add whatever you're adding to it, and therefore it's no longer stable. And that's a hundred percent valid, but you gotta remember we s we centrifuge zero percent alcohol stuff constantly, and it works great. So it's not gonna affect the outcome, but it maybe affect the stability. You think maybe that's what they're talking about? Uh yeah, hopefully.
+
+[54:30] If not, Peter email us back or you know, DMS on Instagram again, and we can clarify. Yeah, yeah. All right. Now, uh young Cognac wrote in, and I have to say from here on out, I have not actually read the whole question. So I'm just gonna go blind.
+
+[54:46] This is whatever knowledge I have. Remember when uh we had Matt from Kitchen Arts and Letters on, and I just threw random questions at him and he knew the answer. That was pretty impressive, I thought. I thought it was impressive. So we'll see whether I can do that to uh this question or whether or not I get it.
+
+[55:01] Also, you got used to two-minute rule here because we gotta we gotta go pretty soon. It's already one something, right? Yeah, but we started late then. All right. Uh I'm trying hard to milkwash with banana ice cream.
+
+[55:15] Uh it won't adhere. What do you mean? I'm trying hard to milkwash with a banana ice cream. It won't adhere. What to do?
+
+[55:23] I switch, do I switch to banana milk? I'm trying to wash this horribly hot rum. I get so close it curdles beautifully, and then when I go to strain it, I'm still left with a milky, cloudy result, even with coffee filters, cheesecloth, and a nut milk bag. That's my favorite word. Uh 50% loss and still far from clear result, and I'm unhappy with it, and it's uh, you know, you know my Wesley Willis.
+
+[55:46] I'm unhappy with it, and it pissed me off. Um, all right. I would guess, I don't know. If it curdles beautifully, um, one thing you can do is uh, and you got your timer going, Stas. I thought that worked well.
+
+[56:00] We didn't do it this week. Yeah, that's true. Well, because we also didn't get the questions until deep, deep into the show. So it's fine. Yeah.
+
+[56:08] All right, so like uh a couple of things. One, ice cream is stabilized, right? So one of the problems you might be having is uh because of the stabilization of it from the locust bean, the guard, carrageen and gel-in, whatever system they're using in the ice cream, uh, that might be causing you problems. So banana milk might be better. Um, the other thing is obviously if the banana has any starch, it's you know, it's gonna stay hazy no matter what.
+
+[56:34] But what you're saying is you're getting a very low yield. Not just that it's not clear, but you're getting a very low yield. Um and so your curds probably uh aren't uh hard enough. I would maybe add a little more uh acidity. And the other thing is is that in it I would I know that the the problem with milk washing in general is that um what after you do it, if you're gonna use it in a shaken drink, you need to use it within a week, right?
+
+[57:03] So your shelf life is somewhat limited, not in terms of safety, but in terms of how long it's gonna foam. If you're not gonna use it to foam though, you have a long, long time. Then time is your friend. Then I would break it and I would just put it into a tall round thing, not square, because if you use square, as soon as you pick it up and turn it, it'll kick up stuff. And I would just let it sediment for like two days and then just pour the stuff up off the top.
+
+[57:26] This should drastically increase your yield. And if it's not dropping a lot, then I would add wine finding agents to get it to adhere harder and drop more. That's what I would that's what I would do. Is that a good uh two-minute answer, guys? Great.
+
+[57:38] Yes, you still have 30 seconds. Well, I I don't have anything else to say now because I already I tried to wrap my head. What? I was letting you know. He bank he banks that time for a future question to be named.
+
+[57:51] This is like the this is like the hearings for the uh for the Supreme Court. Uh geez, Louise. Um, by the way, I appreciate this from Alexander. Uh Alexander uh Tailguard wrote in, and it's it I would not have pronounced uh his name right because it's T E I L. I would have said Tile Guard.
+
+[58:11] So thank thankfully wrote in this is Alexander uh tailguard, like the English uh word tail and then guard, hope that makes sense. Uh thanks for your answers last week. I'm sorry I assumed your hesitation on saying how to make the poly card was due to American safety concerns. Uh I do have a follow-up, I hope you can answer. I did receive my cartridge heater.
+
+[58:30] So a cartridge heater. So the things that I use to make red hot pokers are a thing called a cartridge heater. They're like kind of round sticks of burning hell. And what they're for in the real life is you uh let's say you're making um a piece of equipment and you have you have to have a block of metal be real hot. You bore a hole into the block of metal, and then you tap in one of these cartridge heaters, and this like cartridge heater then heats the whole block of metal.
+
+[58:58] That's what they're for. Um and you get the McMaster car supply or other places. Um okay. Uh I have my uh where's it uh I have my cartridge heater and it is stainless steel 321. I'm not concerned about it melting into my drink.
+
+[59:14] Yeah, but what you should be concerned about is that the temperatures you're gonna be running it, it's gonna oxidize like a mother. Like stainless, the ones I use have uh, I believe Inconel uh sheaths on them, and they don't oxidize nearly as much as the stainless will at that at that high temperature because stainless steel, for any of you that have a Searsol, right? Um the one of the reasons the front thing is Conthal, which is a the rear one's palladium-coated, like uh like uh 693 supermetal, which is amazing, but uh it's an amazing metal. I've been running so many tests recently, so this is like right in what I'm thinking about. The front one's conthol.
+
+[59:51] The reason you can't use stainless there is because at high temperature, stainless um will oxidize, and once it oxidizes, it basically just vaporizes like a vampire when you stick a when you when you stick a steak through its heart. By the way, you guys seen uh Vampires versus the Bronx? No. So Vampires versus the Bronx is uh centers around this uh vampires invading the Bronx. And my son Dax was like, it's like attack the block in America, but it's not.
+
+[1:00:21] I mean, obviously the people who made this have seen attack the block, but it's not like attack the block. Kid Miro from Jesus and Miro is in there and he's in a he runs a bodega. This is back to the bodega section of the show, right? And uh, and this goes back to my son Dax, even though we're from the Lower East Side and we're not from like Harlem or anywhere else like this, right? He's become obsessed with the chopped cheese sandwich, which I know we've talked about on the air, which did not exist when I was a kid, right?
+
+[1:00:48] And even when in the 90s, when I lived like close to West Harlem, right, when I lived in Morningside Heights, right, it wasn't a thing over there. It was still at that point confined to kind of East Harlem, where it was originated at Haji's uh Delhi, which is where is that, John? Do you remember? Like 109th and second, I think. Somewhere around there, yeah.
+
+[1:01:07] And I never used to go that far over because we were over like 125th over on the on way on the west side, near the 24-hour McDonald's. Anyway, so uh chopped cheese, for those of you don't know, you you take your your hamburger meat, you put it on your flat top uh you griddle and uh you know raw onions and you know whatever spices you're you know, salt, pepper, whatever spices you're gonna add, then you also I think raw onion and sometimes like chopped up pepper, whatever. And then you when you flip it, you put the cheese, it melts it, and then you hash it all, you hack it all together, like cross-hatch it all together, and you put it on like you know, kind of a bodega like roll, hero roll, you know what I mean? And you eat it. Anyway, my son Dax is now obsessed with these, even though again he's from the lower east side.
+
+[1:01:51] And uh in the and this is why you have to become friends with your bodega person, because you have to know you have to become a conducente of this sort of thing to understand whether your chopped cheese is good or not. And again, I'm not part of the culture, so I don't know what I'm talking about. However, uh one of the fun the this is almost a comment on gentrification is like vampires coming into your neighborhood, is what uh vampires versus uh the Bronx is. But one of the ways you know that the neighborhood is quote unquote going to hell that the vampires are showing up is that Kid Miro of Jesus and Miro Fame has as a menu item instead of chopped cheese, chopped cheese on a croissant. So there's that chopped cheese on a croissant.
+
+[1:02:30] And that's when you know that it's end times, baby. That's when you know the vampires have shown up. All right, so uh I'm not concerned about it melting into my drink. It's a 500 watt 20 millimeter by 100, 20 by 100 millimeter. I can't speak millimeter.
+
+[1:02:43] What is that, John? Give me that an inches. That's a little that's three-quarters of an inch by, which is about right, by what's a hundred millimeters? It is like four inches? 3.93 inches.
+
+[1:02:54] It's a little short, so I'm worried that it's going to blow itself up. So about the size you said in your book, it oh, it works great, and my cocktails ignite. Alright, however, I'm not getting much of those caramel notes you described, having tried your red hot ale and the grony uh with a very sweet homemade beer mouth. Uh is my unin on hot enough, or is my taste buds that are failing me? Also, a question for Nastasia.
+
+[1:03:15] How did you go from vegan face to becoming vegetarian? She's told you why, but Nastasia, I'll let you go for it. Um, because the only contact I had with uh anything that was alive was dead uh animal protein. And I thought that was really sad in the middle of um isolation and quarantine. On my protein's dead.
+
+[1:03:39] Um I have that song going through my head, but with with your lyrics and it uh um well look, I think what you need to do, uh Alexander, is do this for me. Just run the test where you make one just by boiling water, right? And then do the one with the red-hot poker, and that is the difference I'm talking about. Maybe I just described it poorly in my book. But do that, do the one where you just make it like newfangled way by heating up water like a chump on the stove, and then burn one, and hopefully you'll get the difference.
+
+[1:04:15] And also, like certain spirits like change radically when they burn. So um, like a lot of uh bitters um and things change radically. Jaegermeister burnt is delicious, delicious, which I only learned because Nastasi and I had to do the Jimmy Fallon show back when he was doing the late, late, whatever that that show was called. And um, and he liked Jaegermeister, so it happened to be the winter time, so we tried burning and it turns out it was delicious. By the way, Nastasia, huge fan of, as we know, uh what's it called?
+
+[1:04:47] What's that show? A Saturday nive. So I don't watch a lot of regular TV, but I've started trying to watch Saturday Night Live now, maybe so like you know, I can share this information with Nastasia, right? So that we have something that we're doing, right? That we can talk about later, because it's nice.
+
+[1:05:01] We don't have a water cooler anymore. I can talk to her about it. Have you noticed, Nastasia? Oh, so the only kind of local commercials I get are when I watch the Saturday Night Live. Have you seen there's a so New York, for those of you that live elsewhere, you're probably inundated with political ads right now, right?
+
+[1:05:18] Because it's election season. But in New York, because all of the elections are pretty much baked in, everybody knows in New York City the Democrat is gonna win whatever it is. There's no real elections here, right? I mean, it's like it's like that so no one bothers spending advertising money on New York City. Ever.
+
+[1:05:36] So we don't get political ads. It just doesn't happen, right? Uh sometimes we'll get ads that like we get a lot of ads telling us to donate money to other people's races that are closer, that we where we can't vote, but they want us to donate money, but we get very few ads actually targeted at us in politics. So it's rare. So but it turns out there's one race in Staten Island, which is a little island, it's the it's the borough that's like off the coast of Manhattan, Staten Island, and it's kind of the Republican enclave of New York City.
+
+[1:06:04] And so the ads for Congress there are the funniest ads I've ever seen in my life. And the Republican there, because it's in New York City, doesn't have any money. So I've only ever seen the ads from the Democrat. Did you see those ads on Saturday Night Live, Sas? Uh I get Connecticut ones here.
+
+[1:06:21] But it's got to be that guy, right? Yeah, it's Max Rose. And so when I first heard him, I couldn't believe he was the Democrat. So there's this guy who's actually in Congress right now. I don't know anything about his policies, anything.
+
+[1:06:33] He's a he's a uh uh a vet, I think Iraq, not Afghanistan. I think he's an Iraq war vet. And I I just have to say, like, Nastasio, you gotta look up, you would love this guy's commercials because he's like her is his opponent Wendy Malinakis or some, I'm gonna call her Wendy Malonakis. Nicole Maliatakis. That's it.
+
+[1:06:53] Nicole Malat, he's like, Nicole Maliatakis is a freaking piece of yeah, she's like, he's like she's like a piece of shit though. I can't say it. He's like, she's a freaking liar, she's a freak of scumbag. Don't believe anything when uh Nicole Maliatakis says he just goes off. He's like, he's like, he's like, when I was getting my ass kicked in Afghanistan, or where is it?
+
+[1:07:11] When I was getting my ass kicked in Iraq, you what was she doing? She was trying to shaft you here in New York. He just goes crazy. I was like, oh my god, this is a real congressperson. I was like, this is the best guy ever.
+
+[1:07:20] And then he gets all these other people like, what's her name? Maliatakis? Yeah. Yeah, he's like, Maliatakis is a liar, Maliatakis is a liar, Maliatakis is a liar. And we go on, I was like, oh my god, this is the best political ad I've ever seen.
+
+[1:07:35] And it was like so aggro and amazing, and I was like, oh man, I kind of miss local TV. So I know Nastasia loves local radio because she gets to hear, like, you know, come to the church basement, get your sausage and pep, right? Like, that's why you listen to that's one of the reasons you listen to that stuff, right? Okay, yeah. And so, like, to be able to see that on TV, to see the local political ad with uh Max Rose trying to beat the crap out of uh out of the I was like, uh, that's great.
+
+[1:08:06] Anyway, um We're gonna go. All right. So next week, Nastasia will be uh well, you're not are you in LA or are you gonna be near closer to Covina? No, no, no, no. I will be in uh I will be in LA.
+
+[1:08:20] You're not renting, you're not renting the house, are you? I no, I rented a different house. Are you in the hills though? I'm not telling you exactly where you're gonna say, but I'm trying to get a feeling. I am I am not in the I am not in the Hollywood Hills, but I am in a canyon, yes.
+
+[1:08:36] Oh, oh, are you doing the Laurel Canyon thing? I'm not anybody. No, I'm not in Laurel Canyon. Well, the thing is like, like, you know, whatever, we'll talk about it later. Next week.
+
+[1:08:47] Next week. Next week we'll talk about how Nastasi is doing. Nastassi is gonna have a different set of plants, a different set of people, different set of everything to be dealing with. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:09:04] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:09:19] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:09:41] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by WisTale. Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Torchies Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with WisTale. Learn more at WisTale.com. This week on Meet and Three, we bring you a sensational episode where each story hones in on one of the four senses that accompanies taste.
+
+[0:26] Many of the smells that we uh encounter in everyday life actually exist out there in the cosmos. Food carries all these culturally specific meanings. The fact that, you know, when you see an apple, it's not just an apple, right? I was mostly interested in thinking about what knobs ASMR was pulling on, maybe, or how we could explain it from a psychological or emotional or evolutionary standpoint. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts.
+
+[1:11] This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Hero Digital Radio Network. I'm uh on the lower east side of Manhattan. We got uh John uh from uh customer service joining you uh from the new lab in Brooklyn. Nastasia from uh Topanga Canyon, where for reasons that are too complicated to discuss, she has to go outside to use the bathroom. I mean, at least for not at least for number two.
+
+[1:34] We can talk about it later, maybe if she wants to. We got Matt in his Rhode Island Heidi Hole doing the engineering. But today we have on special guest, Harold Moogie, who's coming down. Thank you. Thank you.
+
+[1:50] Nose Dive, a field guide to the world smells. What is that uh how how how are you supposed to say the title of the book, Harold? Is that like like how do you want it emoted? Uh boy, that's something I have not considered. I'll think about that and get back to you.
+
+[2:09] I mean, like I only know how to do it in kind of like, you know, um, the monster nose dive. That's all I can do. You know what I mean? Yeah. But but then, you know, a field guide to the world's smells, and there's there's the world's smells, kind of slows you down, right?
+
+[2:26] So it maybe it should just be guide to the world smells. You think the apostrophe yes and the s and the smells is what's you think that's slowing me down? Uh it's slowing me down anyway. Uh nothing slows you down. Is it is it like, do you want it to be more like um do you want it to be more like uh in a world?
+
+[2:48] Like that kind of like nosedive, a field guide to the world smells, like that, like more like a little bit foreboding. Yeah, I like that. I like that, especially with the the American jacket, you know, is kind of dark, uh mysterious. Yeah, yeah. Whereas the the UK version got an incense, yeah, yeah, that's right.
+
+[3:09] Smoke curling up into the atmosphere. Uh, but the the English one is very, very different. It's a white cover, and it's got an Erlenmeyer flask with all all sorts of different things inside the flask. Uh those lousy Brits. Those lousy Brits.
+
+[3:26] So you're doing you're doing two editions at once, the the British and the American edition. Uh the two of them are coming out simultaneously, yeah. Then there are a couple of translations in the works. Uh one in uh the Netherlands, amazingly. Uh I thought, and my experience has been that the Dutch, uh all Dutch speak English better than I do, uh, but but they like to read it in their own language.
+
+[3:50] And then in Spain, a translation is also being done. Nice into Spanish Spanish. Yes. Yeah, not into like Catalonian or something like that. That'd be good, that would be on point.
+
+[4:01] Right. You know what I mean? Um nice. All right. Well, I hope that it's a while before you have to deal with your persnickety uh Japanese translator.
+
+[4:12] That was a nightmare for you last time, right? It it was in a good way. And actually, I've I've been kind of going through that with the Dutch translator who is who's very good. He's uh a scholar of um uh food history in his own right, and uh so he's had all kinds of questions. Um, and some of them, you know, uh caught me out.
+
+[4:34] So I've learned a lot dealing with translators. Uh so listen, this book is not like your other books in that it is, I mean you do, I mean, you're a food person, so you you do talk a lot about food and and cooking in it, but that's not what it's about. You want to give people the kind of nutshell of what we're what you're what you've come out with here. First of all, how long you've worked on it, like just give it an outline of the project. All right, all right.
+
+[5:01] So uh it started out 10 years ago as a book about flavor, taste and smell. Uh you know, the what the things that make food delicious and interesting to me anyway. And uh uh, but as I began to write about taste and smell and foods and so on, uh other things kind of bubbled to the surface. I I began to, well, first of all, it seemed to me that uh i wanted to focus on smell because taste is of course really important but we can detect maybe you know something on the order of a dozen tastes plus or minus uh but we can detect uh hundreds thousands maybe more uh different smells so smells are what give foods their particularities and I must ask wait who who has the bell yeah I I have the bell and I have not been able to track down where it's coming from I'm sorry it's it's the sound of wisdom Matt I did it kind of was going off it was like to emphasize like good point or you might learn something here which I've okay so listeners that's what that is only taste 10 12 things ding for the rest of the show this is intentional SFX you're welcome or what I can do is I'm I'm pretty sure it's coming from the phone which I'm using to to record I could just shut it off and not have that second uh not have that backup so up to you guys sure or turn down the volume on the phone it's uh you know it it's not supposed to have notifications going so I the man just told you Matt he can't address why it's dingy okay okay then um yeah turn it off I guess okay I'll do that that's a bit that's a momentous decision right there I don't know yeah it's gonna bite us in the butt later all right okay so give me a sec sorry about this it's it's okay it's okay. Okay.
+
+[7:05] It's off. Anyway uh so I was writing about thinking about writing about flavor, focused on smells, and then began to wonder why it was that um smells kind of echo each other, you know, and I figured that uh that it had to do with the molecules involved. So, you know, parmesan cheese can smell like pineapple. Um, and there are reasons for that. But then I began to wonder why it was that foods can smell like um or have aromas like things that are not foods.
+
+[7:42] Uh okay, I'm being haunted. But now, Matt, we also don't have a lot of things. Now we don't have a backup rebound, and we have the bell. We're really killing it today. Let the man finish.
+
+[7:55] It's the sound of wisdom. I'm haunted. I'm haunted early. Uh I'm really sorry about this. Um we've addressed it enough that the listeners are just along for the ride now.
+
+[8:09] Okay, okay. Um so, you know, uh wines, wines speak, people uh often talk about wines having smells like uh uh you know, sweaty saddles, for example, uh, or rocks, minerals. My nickname kind of thing, yeah. Uh so I began to wonder why these other things in the world have the smells that they do, and that uh ended up really grabbing my attention, you know, because uh people have written about the the olfactory chemistry, the volatile chemistry of foods and drinks, but not so much about the rest of the world. And I thought it would be fun to try to pull all those things together, and it ended up being fun in a way.
+
+[9:12] Jeez, I have no idea what that feels like. Anyway, so the book is now a field guide to the world's smells, in which food and drink uh play a part, but uh and uh uh an important part because those are where we mostly encounter smells these days. Um but it it does try to cover everything else that I could think of, and that there was data for. Yeah, and speaking of data, so for those of you like um this is a tome. This is not like this is not like uh some sort of like pollen-esque, like you know, light read tour through, like this is like on the order of not as long as, but on the order of of uh on food and cooking, in that it like you start with kind of the structures of uh like the early universe, like volatiles that might be around, and then the how the earth kind of like came to be, and then the building blocks uh volatile smell building blocks that kind of life created, and then you kind of ramify from there, like here's what plants can do, here's what animals can do, and then go into an in-depth kind of description of all that along with what the individual compounds are that do it.
+
+[10:30] So it's one of those things where you kind of need to read it at least twice. Wouldn't you say that's accurate or no? Well, uh, I guess uh I did mean it um, or it did turn out to be in the end, uh uh something like a field guide, which is something that you don't necessarily read from cover to cover. It's something that you kind of browse in the first few chapters to get the idea of you know what birds are or what what beetles are, that kind of thing. Uh and then when you see something uh or hear a bird call that interests you, then you go back home and open up the the field guide and try to figure out what it was.
+
+[11:10] Uh so that's how I intend it to be used, although I did also try to make it readable so that if you happen to be interested, for example, in herbs and spices or in incense or something like that, that you could sit down and spend half an hour learning something about those things. Right, but you should really spend like you in other words, I think to really get the most out of it, there's a section near the beginning, I forget what you call it, um, like the it's not like building blocks, it's uh what is it? It's like you have a chart and you you you take like a like a chapter or two, what do you what do you call it? I'm gonna have to flip through the book now because I have a copy of it here. Um, you know, the basic building blocks and like what the structures are.
+
+[11:54] Oh, like the starter set and then beyond the starter set into the first couple of things, and you kind of need to go over those a couple of times because you're gonna keep coming back to those again and again. And I think understanding those kind of basic building blocks is gonna help you understand the stuff you write later, don't you think so? Yeah, I do think so. And I and I think it's just important uh an important point in its own right to that there are such things as building blocks. Uh, you know, that uh life uh in with all its diversity does uh when when you begin to uh fracture it and break it down, break it back down into its uh smaller constituents, you end up with the same basic set of small molecules that are small enough that they're volatile, that they can leave what it whatever it is they're in, fly through the air, and end up in our noses, which is the prerequisite for anything having a smell.
+
+[12:52] So, yeah, uh living things in general tend to fall apart into these this this uh starter set of different molecules, and we we encounter them all the time. And then, you know, also you uh interesting in the section on plants, for instance, you say, okay, listen, plants need to make these kind of structural and uh food storage molecules, and there's this kind of there's these uh you know specific pathways, and then on those specific pathways branching off are all these side reactions that create all of these like crazy uh volatils, and you kind of go through, and so it's it's kind of a pathway by pathway. Um kind of like, look, here's what this pathway does. And it's it's an interesting way to look at, and and and I think part of what you say in the intro is once once you kind of start understanding these kinds of pathways and how they're related, it can actually make your experience of the whole world more interesting, you know. Yeah, that's that's my hope.
+
+[13:51] Uh that's certainly the way I experienced it, because going into it, you know, I knew food and drink pretty well because I'd been writing about those things for a long time, but I had not been writing about plant uh biochemistry. I had not been writing about uh uh the early history of the earth uh and you know the smells that come out of volcanoes and things like that. So I was learning all that stuff for the first time. That's why it took me 10 years. Uh uh, but what really intrigued me was you know, why do these things exist?
+
+[14:23] Why are those particular molecules there? And in the case of plants, which are stuck in one spot in the earth and can't run away from predators, uh, they have to defend themselves and and deal with the world essentially chemically. And um so they they take advantage of the pathways that they use to make uh their physical structures, uh, to make uh chemical structures that can serve them well to repel predators or to uh you know to be come on to animals to uh pollinate their flowers or to disperse their fruits, um, and knowing that all that kind of thing is going on when you enjoy a mango, for example, I think adds to the experience of uh of mango hood. Yeah, yeah. And uh one other thing I'll note is that while you do not stint ever on using the names of the uh compounds and the families of compounds that are in it, because I guess you want you want people to know, right?
+
+[15:30] You don't have to know the stuff. You don't, in other words, you don't have to absorb everything to go to a later chapter and read about something and and you could still get the main gist, the thrust of the argument without you know, if if you don't know uh if you don't know a uh a terpenoid from uh from a lactone, you can still get the the general gist of what's kind of going on. So I would say don't be frightened of the fact that it does have all of this actual kind of chemistry in it. I wouldn't you would you agree with that or no? Uh again, that's certainly my hope.
+
+[16:01] And I I tried to arrange things to make it as easy as possible to skip over that stuff if you don't happen to be interested in it. So there are uh uh tables of the component smells that that make up the smell of a particular thing like a mango, uh, and then the molecules that are responsible for those smells. Uh the molecules are there, you know, uh for people who are interested in the chemistry, uh, and I became interested, so that's why I've included them, but also to make the point that these are not um uh tasting notes, you know. Uh these are not um some person sitting down uh smelling a mango and coming up with, well, it's got uh you know, uh pine note and uh and a strawberry note and a this note and a that note. It's not subjective, these are molecules that have been found in all these things uh that are responsible for the component smells that give us the overall smell.
+
+[17:08] So it's there uh uh the the molecules are there largely um uh to to make the point that these are uh not subjective notes, these are what science has found to have been involved in these wonderful smells that we enjoy. So before I get to the uh listener questions, I know Anastasia wants to talk about one specific section of the books. My favorite part in the herald that you you and I, when we were having drinks, explained it to me before the book came out, but that certain people, certain cultures, don't have body odor or bad body odor. And I find that so interesting. Can you talk about that?
+
+[17:52] Sure. Yeah. And that's something that I learned and you know took a couple of months to make sure that I really understand and uh it's it's really fascinating. So turns out, I mean, I I figured going into writing about uh the human body that most of the smells that uh that we emit are kind of accidental. You know, we have microbiomes, uh uh bacteria and and uh yeasts and all kinds of little creatures that live on our skin and inside us, and it's largely their activity that um that causes the uh the breakdown of our molecules into small things that are are volatile and that we can smell.
+
+[18:39] What I didn't realize was that uh our bodies have taken advantage of that fact, and so they actually make certain molecules that are brought to the surface of our skin, which which microbes then process in such a way as to give us our human uh body odors. And it turns out that um uh certain groups of human beings on the planet have more or less of these um kind of specialty um uh products that are meant for microbes to process to give us the smells that we have. And it turns out that Europeans, well, um, so uh apparently coming out of Africa and then spreading into um uh Europe and into Asia, uh, we started out with uh a pretty good complement of molecules that would end up smelling once bacteria on our skin got a hold of them and released them. But uh as culture as uh as people evolved uh separately, uh uh uh some of those smells became for whatever reasons, that's still the biologists are still working on this, but for ever whatever reason became less useful or maybe got in the way of something or other. And so uh it turns out that uh people in Asia tend to produce much less or even none of the molecules that um people of African and European and ancestry do that end up giving us uh a much stronger body odor than people in Asia have.
+
+[20:30] Crazy. And yet another reason we are hated. Um Harold, say the one thing when when Asians smelled or saw Europeans for the first time, then they smelled them, they were like, whoa, right? Uh yeah, no, there are terms in in uh Chinese that uh are are essentially mean essentially the the smell of the barbarian or uh and and um stories about uh Europeans who are able to turn from human into fox and vice versa, but they keep the same smell, and so that's how you know that who or what they are. Awesome.
+
+[21:19] Uh let me get to some uh let me get to some listener questions because you know, I could ask, you know, we could ask Harold questions all day, and then I will have asked people to ask questions in vain. Uh and also Matt, you're keeping an eye on the chat room in case people pop in, right? Okay. Chris writes in, I have a question. Why does white, and this is actually covered in the book, Chris.
+
+[21:39] So if you buy the book, you wouldn't have to ask. Why does ground white pepper smell like horses? It does. That's what he says. That's his note, it does.
+
+[21:47] I just say I don't use it. And Nils Noran, you know, uh uh, you know, our old uh compatriot hates it because he thinks it smells like uh like death and mold. He and and first of all, like whatever. So go give me some white pepper. Right.
+
+[22:01] So um black pepper is black because it has the uh the fruit coat of the um of the pepper fruit uh still intact surrounding the seed. And uh white pepper is white because that that fruit coat has been removed in the processing. And the the easiest way to remove the fruit coat on uh uh pepper fruit is essentially to ferment it, to you know, make big piles and then wet the pile down, and then microbes get to work um uh fermenting the the fruit pulp, and it becomes uh very easy just to kind of wipe it off. And so that's how you get white pepper is to do this fermentation step and then clean the the the fruit of the uh of the fruit pulp, and you're left with the seed, which is white. The problem is that that fermentation is usually taking place, well, I guess always taking place in tropical conditions and uh those fermentations are wild so that they are sometimes less than pleasant and when that happens you can end up with um volatiles that come from the fermentation not from the the pepper itself and that's what you're tasting when you're tasting uh white pepper that that is funky and most uh white peppers are funky some less than others it depends on how that fermentation has been been controlled if at all uh now follow up question is there any reason if if you throw out black specks as a reason to to use white pepper over black pepper is there any reason that white pepper exists uh well I can see uh I mean I'm I'm not a huge fan but I can see you know that it would if you in in small doses it might give an interesting sort of background complexity to something but you certainly want it wouldn't want it to be front and center and freshly ground and as a as a follow follow up you quote Pliny at least twice in the book at the beginning of chapters in one quote he says that he detests the taste of pepper why would you ever quote him again for anything because I think he was asking in that passage a very good question, which is why would human beings bother to be interested in this kind of thing?
+
+[24:36] Why would they want to you know give themselves pain and and value that kind of um uh uh sensation so much that the the cost of pepper was comparable to the cost of gold? That's that's what he was talking about in that passage. So you think he was actually being thoughtful and not just ragging on uh ragging on pepper and pepper? Oh I think both. I think both.
+
+[24:59] I mean he was uh yeah, I mean he uh ragging and and insight are not uh you know uh necessarily to be dissociated. Fair point. If it if it yeah, fair point. All right. Uh Peter Stewart writes in uh I have a smell-related question.
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+[25:18] Why does raw egg make dishes smell like wet dog? And is there a simple way to neutralize it? If it gets in the dishwasher undetected, it can spread to the whole load of dishes, which is a problem when you live with a nose. You want to talk about what a nose is, and then maybe if you have an answer to the question. Okay.
+
+[25:36] Well, a nose, uh, I'm assuming that a nose uh in the this context is uh a nose in the larger culture, which is someone who uh has been trained to pay attention, uh, very close attention to smells. And that's usually someone who is working in the in the flavor or fragrance industries. Um so this is an interesting question. I remembered uh talking about it with Audrey Saunders years and years ago because she to her it was uh a problem that comes up in any drink that's made with a shaken with a with an egg white. The the shelf life or the the the bar life for her was was very short because that smell would develop very quickly.
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+[26:23] Dave, is is that something that that you would agree with? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why, like uh we you know the the the best solution the problem is is that people like to see the egg freshly freshly cracked out. I mean that that smell dissipates over the course of a couple of hours. So if you crack it out before service and let it kind of air out, it'll it'll go away.
+
+[26:46] But I don't think that'll stop the dishwasher smell, which might be a reification of the smell. I don't really, I never looked into it. I just, you know, I was like, I can't solve this. So, you know, Audrey's was to cover up the aroma, and mine was to either like not use the egg white or wait, you know, and so I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:06] So uh ever since Audrey pointed it out to me, I've I've been interested in wet dog smell and eggs, and have been uh searching for an answer. And what I've come up with are you know, little fragments of possibilities, but no unified theory for why it is that uh that eggs have that wet dog smell. Uh people have studied the smell of wet dogs, amazingly. In fact, that's that's one of the cool things that uh that I was just amazed at over the course of the the years I was writing this book is how many oddball things scientists have gone to the trouble to track down and and figure out. So there have been you know uh uh gas chromatography, old factometry studies done of wet dogs, among many other things.
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+[28:01] And um uh make to make a long story short, because it is just uh you know a series of possibilities, uh wet dogs themselves have actually um this molecule cresol, which is also one of the culprits in the smell of uh white pepper that we were just talking about. And so it's possible that because egg whites are basically all protein, protein plus water, and protein is rich in nitrogen, and cresol is a byproduct of the breakdown of amino acids, that for some reason there are just traces of um of that particular molecule in egg whites, which some people are really sensitive to and others just aren't. Um but there are other possibilities. I mean, the the um uh I I came across a paper about the smell of uh the off-smell of fish and fish oils, which can be pretty nasty, um, which discovered a molecule uh which, when isolated, according to the authors, and this is back in the 90s, um, smelled like had the very characteristic smell of uh meringue, which is egg whites, right? So and that turned out to be an aldehyde, nothing to do with crasol, but but an aldehyde.
+
+[29:35] So I think uh basically what we're what we're chasing after is some trace compound that science has not yet tracked down completely. I I don't understand why it is, and I'll have to to experiment with this. What why it is that the smell would smell uh would spread in a dishwasher, which is you know, probably it's probably alkaline conditions in there, and so that's probably gonna do something something to the chemistry and to the volatility of the traces that are still in there. But good question. Scrub steel, scrub steel has a similar smell.
+
+[30:10] So you know, you I can often confuse that egg smell with freshly scrubbed wet steel in a dishwashing situation. So I also wonder whether maybe there's some of that, you know. Yeah, that's interesting because the the smell of uh of uh fresh metal surface is uh has again been uh amazingly enough, carefully studied. And though those are very particular um aldehydes again and and ketones, uh so not related to amino acids at all, but to actually uh what you're smelling is not of course the metal, which is not volatile, but but uh volatile molecules that are generated by the contact of the soap molecules with the metal. So these are you know eight eight and ten carbon fragments uh that that we associate with the smell of metal because that's when we smell them, but it's not the metal itself, it's these other uh materials that come in contact with it.
+
+[31:13] Okay. So I have a question here uh from uh our friend uh up in Connecticut, Wowie Zawi, says, not exactly aromacentric, but would love to hear Harold's thoughts about a serious eats article on debittering olive oil. And I I looked it up. It's uh Nick Sharma, who's coming out with uh the flavor equation, the science of great cooking, uh, which is, I guess, due out this month, maybe already out for all I know. I haven't read it yet.
+
+[31:37] Basically takes olive oil and then to make emulsions that don't get bitter, he um puts a lot of hot water into it, which absorbs the polyphenols and then decocks it and then makes an emulsion with it. So I'm assuming that at that point you're like, why use the olive oil, right? I mean, I don't know. Why don't you just tell me what you think about that idea? If you've if you've read about it or heard about it.
+
+[31:58] That's exactly my reaction. Why bother using olive oil? Um so that that's a technique. You're you're what you're basically doing is um washing out non-oil materials from the oil by mixing it intimately with water and letting then letting the the oil and water separate from each other, pouring off the water, and then you're left with the oil, and it don't no longer has those traces of bitter and other compounds, including aromas. Um that's a technique that has been used for centuries, actually, uh, to take um rancid smelling oils and get rid of the rancidity.
+
+[32:41] Uh so you can find that uh that kind of procedure called for uh in books going way, way back. It does work, and I think Nick uh also recommends it when using mustard oil, which which can be bitter and is used a lot in in Indian cooking. But uh that's exactly my my question is if you're if you don't want the particular qualities of olive oil and mustard oil, and by the way, the the bitterness in olive oil is actually an indication of its um uh polyphenol content, which is associated with uh good things for our bodies, um, then what you're doing is basically taking away the molecules that give those oils their specific identities and qualities and perhaps health benefits, uh, in order to have a kind of blank background. And so you could do the same thing just by using canola oil. Yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[33:47] Uh, especially if you don't believe in any of these purported uh I guess you're saying even the health purported health benefits you'd be washed. All right, right. So why use it? Maybe you have a surfeit of olive oil lying around. You know what I mean?
+
+[33:59] Maybe you're swimming in olive oil and trying to find uses for it. Whatever. Uh, by the way, what percentage of olive oils do you think turn bad when you make a mayonnaise out of them? Uh sorry, which percentage of olive oils like get that like intensely bitter thing when you make mayonnaise out of them? My experience is that it really depends on how you make it.
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+[34:19] So if you uh make the mayonnaise by hand, I find that you don't generally have a problem at all. It's when you use a blender. Uh and uh so my guess is it it maybe have has to do with uh the uh processing of the oil, the the size of the droplets, how much of the stuff that's inside the droplets gets exposed on the surface of the droplets. Uh that that might be what's causing the bitterness, but I I I think it it's um process dependent. This episode is brought to you by Wisetail.
+
+[35:02] Ever wonder how winning brands like Shake Shack, Chopped, and Porchese Tacos scale their business and train employees, all while delivering an exceptional customer experience? They do it with WiseTale. Wisetale is a state of the art learning management system built to engage and empower your workforce. With a modern user interface and intuitive course authoring capabilities, Wisetale has helped hundreds of businesses achieve their growth goals. Plus, Wisetale has experts on call to help you bring your vision to life with their world class client success team.
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+[35:35] Come see how Wisetale's award-winning training platform can go to work for you. As a special offer, HRN listeners are eligible for their first month free. Learn more at Wisetail.com slash H R N. That's Wisetale.com slash H R N. W I S E T A I L dot com slash H R N.
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+[35:57] Terms and Conditions apply. Visit their website for more details. Alright, we have a question in from Rachel Meyer. I wonder whether that's the Rachel Meyer from Shoots and Roots. Uh interesting.
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+[36:13] She asks, what's really behind smelling sweet? What does sweet smell mean? Ah, so that's uh really good question. I I have a couple of pages about that because um in the uh chemosensory world, uh in the world of people who who especially think about the the flavors of foods, it's often said that um talking about sweet smells is actually a mistake or a uh a kind of um uncalled for uh attribution to smells of something that's actually due to an association with a taste. So we say that vanilla has a sweet smell because we always encounter it in sweets.
+
+[37:01] And so we we make that unconscious uh association and we use that word for it. But my argument is that in fact, uh you know, if just go back to the Oxford English dictionary and look at the history of the use of the word sweet, it's used to mean pleasant uh way, way back, but long before it was associated very specifically with sugars. And I think that that uh there's a lot to be said for using the term sweet to mean uh soothing uh when it when it comes to smells. Um I'm talking about soothing smells, um, pleasant smells, uh smells that you know that you have pleasant associations with. Um flowers can swell can smell sweet and um uh and you know, we don't necessarily have a lot of experience with uh flowers, floral aromas in sweets.
+
+[38:04] Certainly in uh in some parts of the world there is that association, but for us not so much. So I think it's a perfectly useful word when describing smells. Uh it's very general, uh, but it it essentially means pleasant. What about in a related note? So, like honey, remember we used to do the demonstration together.
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+[38:26] We you know, I guess John hasn't done it, but like Nastasi and you and I have done the demo many times where you um chew on or eat some umic acid, gymnemia silvestri leaves, it wipes out your your sense of sweet, and almost nothing tastes sweet, everything is ruined, exception being honey still tastes slightly sweet. I always assumed that that was an aroma situation that I was literally integrating in my mind as sweet, no. Um I you know, my guess with honey is because there's so many different sugars in there, you know, maybe something's getting by. You know, something's uh triggering a receptor that the gym isn't somehow blocking. That would be my guess.
+
+[39:10] Uh, but uh I think a good ex well, let's see. We've done, didn't we do marshmallows? And yeah, and they have some vanilla in them, and they were not so nice. So they're terrible. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:26] So it's foam right. My guess is it's it's the bizarre range of sugars that you find in in honey that that might be doing that. Uh I haven't done that in a long time because it's unpleasant. Yeah, my question in the chat. Okay.
+
+[39:43] Uh are there any moment. Are there any good resources on esters like a database? Uh specifically if you want to associate them with different spirits like rum or whiskey. Uh, and then he explains that he finds it strange he can't stand whiskey. It smells like used baby diaper.
+
+[40:02] Uh I'm a dad, he says. Uh whereas rum is like chocolate, vanilla, raisins, cola nut, and notes in between that can't play specifically. And he said he also throws in that he's one of those people for whom Cory undertastes smells like some sort of sober detergent. He wonders if there's a correlation. What are you feeding that baby?
+
+[40:21] You gotta get that baby to go to sleep somehow, you know. That's right. Yeah, my my father, when I was in my uh 30s with children, uh finally admitted to me that uh you know I was I was a regularly doped up as a as an infant to keep me quiet. So nice. What was that noise nostalgia?
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+[40:55] Yes. I caught it as more of a well and I I now use that as an excuse for all kinds of things. So I see anyway. Brandy brandy baby brandy nice uh uh anyway so uh esters well so uh the the book does have uh a two-page spread of um the most common esters that are found in in food and drink um I'm not aware offhand of a uh a uh kind of specialty chart for spirits but I wouldn't be at all surprised if one didn't exist somewhere or other um make it sound so racy a two pace two page story okay uh the um uh when it comes to why it is that you experience whiskey uh the way you do and uh uh and possible correlation with your experience of coriander cilantro uh you know that's that's um an aspect of the the perception of uh of smells that i chose deliberately to ignore in the book because it it is so subjective and complicated and uh the book was going to be long enough if i just paid attention to what's out there whether or not or how we perceive it uh so uh i i can't can't really come up with a good explanation there and i'm not sure that uh that uh anyone else can at this point except to say that you know we we do all have different uh sets of receptors we all do have different processing uh circuits in our brain because those are are built by experience and um so uh i i would take it as an occasion to think back um to your infancy and early adulthood and and see if you can come up with any uh uh interesting associations from from your own life john you're not a whiskey guy do you get any uh diaper uh action out of your any baby poo out of your uh no i do not yeah i don't i just i don't know what about the flavor i guess i've never really taken the time to just like sit and think about why i dislike whiskey so much i just know i don't like it when i taste it well you told me it was a it was uh it was a mental thing because of a bad experience yes bad experience when i was young and silly i think that has to do with it yeah what happened i just graduated from high school, went down to jamaica with some friends and got in a hot tub with uh some jack daniels and some spaghettios. And needless to say, things did not go well.
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+[43:56] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Give me that, give me that, give me that trifecta again. You're in a hot tub. Spaghettios, Jack Daniels. I stole a bottle of Jack Daniels.
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+[44:18] Well, I could afford spaghettios. Let's get in the hot tub. Is that how that went? Was that is that the gist? No, I don't I don't I don't really remember how it all happened.
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+[44:28] It just was I remember the end of the evening. Um did not go well in the next day. I bet you do. Yeah. That's a that's a nice color floating on the top of that pool.
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+[44:38] Yeah, well, thankfully made it into the bathroom. Not quite to the toilet, but yeah. Oh man. Uh Harold, you still have not listened to the Dead Milkman song, have you? Uh no, I have not.
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+[44:59] These are a few of my many smells off of their smash hit album Beelzebubba. Okay. Thank you for reminding me. I will do that today. Yeah.
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+[45:10] Yeah, come on. I'm sure you have one of the Spotifies or iTunes. I mean, it's not that it's a great song, but I mean, how many Dead Milkmen songs relate directly to uh you know a book that you've written. That's right. Yeah, you know.
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+[45:24] The dead milk, I'm sure like none of you guys even remember who the dead milkmen were. Like that, you know, you might know them, uh, Bitch and Camaro and Punk Rock Gorilla were their two biggest songs. Anyways. Um Ashmitt writes in, hey Harold. Uh, and also he wishes us well, so that's nice.
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+[45:43] Uh okay. Is my question is about the difference uh and taste in butter of different animals, cow and water buffalo. In India, I don't know if it's present in the US. The butter from a cow is much more aromatic and stronger tasting in a good way than the buffalo kind, which tastes fresher. I bought the two ties from the same brand, and the difference is still quite noticeable.
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+[46:03] Both of them were uncultured, which removes the possibility of fermentation. Uh introduced uh diacetyl. Why do you think this? What do you think the disparity is? Is it related to the yellow hue of the cow kind, or is it simply because they are two different animals?
+
+[46:16] Uh am I thinking about this too much? And is this also the case in the United States? We don't get buffalo butter here in the United States. And I will throw into this an added thing if uh bonus points, Harold, if you can talk about camel milk. Well, I'm on the point of camel milk.
+
+[46:33] Um, I myself have not tasted it, but uh I was shopping at a wonderful grocery store in Sacramento called Corti Brothers, which I really want to take you guys to when that kind of thing becomes possible again. Um, and they actually had uh dehydrated camel milk and dehydrated horse milk. Uh so I bought uh a can of each. Uh it was expensive stuff. It's like you know, 30 bucks a can, something like that.
+
+[47:05] But I gave them to my daughter Florence, who is a uh who spends her weekends with horses. Uh that's uh kind of her avocation, is uh working at a horse ranch on weekends. And so I gave them to her as a kind of you know, stock uh oddball stocking stuffer. And um she was grateful for them, took them home and then we have the lockdown and I we haven't been together since so um I hope she still has them I will I will check and if she does then I'll uh I'll give you some notes on camel milk. All right and then we'll we'll read them on the air.
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+[47:47] You can come back you know you don't have to wait until you come out with a book to come on the show by the way people enjoy when you come on but to to the buffalo to the buffalo cow and and uh does uh does the butter in the cows that they have in India differ from ours in an uncultured etc etc the whole regional so um cow's milk and water buffalo milk are very different and they're uh there's a page in the book about about that difference um they're different in in all kinds of ways uh just uh the water buffalo milk is much higher in protein and fat both uh but then the other thing about milk is that it it really does get a lot of its flavor from what the animal is eating uh and uh so it I think probably a big part of the the difference that the caller has experienced in between those two milks has to do with the the feed um the the milks themselves I mean you we can kind of get an idea of it here if we buy burrata for example, which you which is sometimes made with cow's milk, sometimes made with water buffalo milk uh and it's kind of you know on the on the edge between uh cheese and butter. And the they have very distinctive uh flavors, but it's um you know it's not not a huge difference. And I think if uh if uh there's a huge difference in India bet between those two, then it might have a lot to do with uh the the typical feet that they have. Well, we'll have to take a trip and find out once all this is over. That's that's gonna be our our mango trip, right?
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+[49:39] Yeah, we're gonna go down to the south. Hey, look, I'm I'm game. We almost made it that one year. I forget what happened, you know. Um that because you have you still have your hookup, right?
+
+[49:48] Uh yeah, still have friends there, and uh they're they're happy to make arrangements for us. All right, well, as soon as uh we're allowed to. What's the season there? When's the when's the right? It's uh spring, late spring.
+
+[50:00] Yeah. Nice. All right. Yeah, yeah. All right.
+
+[50:04] Uh Miguel Cepeda wrote in, I have a rotary evaporator to distill things, and I have the aromas, and then I pass them on to my dishes, but it occurs to me to try to distill rusty metal nails to get those metallic aromas. And so this is gonna you spent a lot of time several places in the book talking about what actual aromas of things like metals are, so it's why this is apropos of the book. Um, to get those metallic aromas similar to the to the truffle, which you also spend a good deal of time on. And the question is can I obtain those aromas and flavors and are they safe to consume? If so, what temperature do you recommend using in the rotary evaporator uh to take care of the turpenoise?
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+[50:43] But I wouldn't know what turpenoids would be present in there. But anyway, but so basically the distilling the smell of uh rusty nails. Right. I can kind of hear them clanking around as the uh as the rotor. In the tink tink tink tink yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[50:58] Um well, so those molecules are have been characterized and are well understood. And uh as I mentioned earlier, they're uh kind of medium-sized aldehydes and ketones, uh, about eight carbons uh long. And so those will have a very particular um volatility, uh, particular partial pressure uh with whatever solvent you're using. And uh so yeah, you can uh you should be able to get them uh and maybe even focus on them by getting the conditions just right. Uh no no terpenoids in rusty nails, but but again, what these molecules are are um uh organic molecules that are broken down by coming into contact with metals uh which are which are very reactive and and uh cause them to break down.
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+[51:54] It's the same same thing that happens, you know, if you if you smell the keys uh in your pocket, uh it's the they they have the smell they do from the oils from your fingers that you've left on the keys when you've handled them. So it's not the the metal itself, it's the the other stuff that uh gets broken down by the metals. And would you say that those things are relatively temperature insensitive or should you go on the low side? Uh well they're so aldehydes and ketones are both kind of reactive. Um they're um so they're um probably going with the the lowest temperature you can is the best idea.
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+[52:35] Yeah. Now, in you to you uh you have a section about the smell of earth again, you talk about it at the beginning, but you also talk about it close to the end of the book. And um, you know, the smell of just freshly wetted uh earth and dirt and concrete and whatnot being this kind of like blooming from carbon dioxide, like you know, they they the microbes come back to life, make carbon dioxide, it raises these volatiles. That's the gist of the argument, right? Uh huh.
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+[53:04] Yeah. But what about the actual smell of curing concrete? Uh you got me. You know that smell when you walk past curing concrete? I'm trying to uh like so since this stuff is probably not volatile, and for those of you that have never had the pleasure of in the summer walking past a large amount of curing concrete, it has a very specific smell and a cooling effect.
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+[53:30] I love it. I love walking past a big concrete port in the summertime. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had a uh a concrete driveway poured at our house uh decades ago.
+
+[53:42] And yeah, that was I like in I hadn't thought of it until this moment. Uh, but yeah, it's it's vivid. Uh and I have no idea. And I and uh I forget you write about this again in the book. Uh and you know, I used to know it back when we did the flavor exhibit at MoFad, but there there is a mental relationship in my head between curing concrete and green bananas, but I don't know what it I don't know what it is or whether that's just my brain playing with me or not.
+
+[54:12] Yeah, yeah. I'll figure it out. Actually, I won't figure it out. I'll never figure it out. I'll forget about it again until I ask you again in like 10 years' time.
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+[54:19] Uh okay. Uh don't ask him too many stuffers. We got only, you know, like 10 minutes left. Also, Gur Gurin uh confirms that he too had a bad experience with whiskey, so his whole thing is suspect. I don't say suspect.
+
+[54:32] Look, a bad experience that you have is very real. I mean, all of this stuff's just mental. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[54:39] That's that's exactly why I chose not to write about it. Is that we all have different experiences, so we're all gonna have different experiences of food and drink and smells in general in the present. And uh so I just wanted to get out there uh what the stuff is that stimulates our perceptions, whatever those perceptions might be. I mean, you touch a little bit when you when you go into the kind of cilantro thing, right? It's like there are many people who where cilantro tastes like soap and yet they still like it.
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+[55:13] Yeah. Or uh or they can it's it's maybe not their immediate reaction to it, but they can but they get it. They they can say, yeah, there is a soapy aspect to this, but it's also herbaceous and fresh and uh and nice. I would say delicious soap. That way if you're selling you gotta always be selling.
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+[55:35] All right. Uh Devin Patel uh wrote in uh hello. Uh I've been on a quest for some time now trying to understand the flavor and uh uh uh aroma formation in coffee roasting. I'm not talking about classic coffee favors, uh flavors like uh furna furans or phenols, but the fruity esters, ketones, etc. Do you have any recommended readings on flavor formation caused from thermal degradation?
+
+[55:58] Oh my right in your wheelhouse here, Harold. Uh there is little info on the internet on the subject. Any help would be much appreciated. I'm assuming buy the book and then look at your bibliography section. Uh yeah, that would be that would be a good start.
+
+[56:11] Uh but I would also say um that you don't necessarily have to go to the book. These days, and I write about this in the bibliography section, that it's never been easier for anybody, including me, to find exactly this kind of information. You just have to get used to dealing with Google Scholar. But you just go to Google Scholar and you type in uh coffee and uh whatever particular notes you're interested in, uh, and up will come a list of the publications that have covered it. And then uh oftentimes those publications are behind paywalls, but the abstracts almost always contain the information that people like us are are interested in, which is you know, what are the the most important molecules and how are they formed?
+
+[57:09] Uh and then if you really want to get uh take a deep dive into the uh the science of it, uh then would you say a nose dive or even deeper? Uh then there are ways to get around the paywalls. But uh for the most part, you can you can find tons and tons of information these days. That's uh that's part of what kept me going for 10 years. We're allowed to talk about Sci Hub here in Ray.
+
+[57:39] Yeah, yeah. No one's gonna bother us about it. Yeah. Uh all right, uh Deep It writes in from Toronto. Hey, I have a question for Harold.
+
+[57:48] My partner cannot stand the smell of tequila. Uh fermented dairy, such as yogurt and sour cream and black vinegar. Uh, is there a common molecule that is present in all of these food or drinks that may be the culprit? I imagine lactic acid is a light, likely one, although not in the vinegar, but not sure whether tequila has any lactic acid in it. She has similar issues with mezcal, but finds the extremely smoky example examples tolerable, which is a flip.
+
+[58:12] Anyway, so uh any any commonalities there or just uh very disparate dislikes? Yeah, I'm um uh so if I had half an hour, I'd sit down and look at the charts that uh that contain that that uh have that information and look for a molecule that they they share in common. Offhand, I can't think of one because they are very different materials. Why, yeah, why does sour cream and yogurt smell somewhat acidic when though lactic acid is not volatile the way that acetic acid is. Well, is it just a mental action?
+
+[58:48] No, it's uh so that's a really interesting question. Uh lactic acid should should not be volatile. And yet, if you buy supposedly pure lactic acid and smell it, it does smell kind of dairy like. So uh my guess is that there are trace molecules associated with lactic acid uh that uh that are detectable uh that are really hard to get out of um uh you know uh lab preparations of things like lactic acid. But the other thing is that in the case of sour cream and and yogurt and things like that, um, lactic acid is uh certainly produced, but so are all kinds of other acids, including butyric acid, which uh in excess can be uh, well, let's see, butyric acid, if it's if it's uh kind of moderate amount, it's kind of cheesy.
+
+[59:46] If it's uh much more than moderate, then it really begin begins to get you know disgusted, grotting smelling. Uh Nastasi says the same thing about me. Uh traces of butyric acid just smell acidic. They they're you know a little bit like like uh vinegar, you know, but without the distinctiveness of vinegar. So there's a kind of sharpness that all the organic acids share uh because they they are volatile and they do what vinegar and CO2 and things like that do in our nose.
+
+[1:00:20] You know, they they hit our um uh our acid receptors or our this is this also gets complicated, uh acid receptors, but also pain receptors. Um so there are all kinds of things in dairy in fermented products in general that give us that kind of sharp acidic hit. So the outlier so far is is tequila, which I don't know enough about the stuff in it to tell you like but I'm sure uh all right, yeah. I was just gonna say uh tequila, of course, is also a uh a concentrated fermented product, and so I wouldn't be surprised if maybe there was uh an acidic component that uh the caller is just especially uh sensitive to. All right, all right.
+
+[1:01:09] We got two last. I'm gonna rip through it. We're gonna do it, Matt. It's gonna happen. Okay, I'll set the two minute timer.
+
+[1:01:13] Ready? Okay, it's gonna take me two minutes to read this question. Hold on. From yes, um Harold, by the way, what Nastasia's doing is he's gonna set a two-minute timer. So you have two minutes to answer these next two questions, all right?
+
+[1:01:24] All right. From John Secort via email. Uh hey everybody, and Harold. Uh, I feel like this might be a good question for Harold. I recently made Cachio Pepe.
+
+[1:01:33] Say that say say Cachio Pepe for me. I love it. Catchy Pepe. You usually say it. You should not do it.
+
+[1:01:39] She turned off. She muted it. I am muted because my Airbnb person was like talking to me. Oh, did you ask them why they didn't install a bathroom in their house? Did you hear me ask them that?
+
+[1:01:50] No. Well, then I didn't. Well, I didn't hear all of it because you muted. Remember? Yes.
+
+[1:01:56] And if and if I had asked him that question, you think it would have been like a two-second answer that we would have would have given me. Nah, we skipped it. Okay, cool. Bye. I mean that that checks out.
+
+[1:02:11] Anyway. Uh, why no turtlet? Goodbye. Anyway, um, I recently made Cachio Pepe and the recipe calls to toast and quotes the ground uh the ground the ground black pepper in the pan for a few minutes. This certainly releases some very wonderful aromas, but I'm curious as to what it does to the overall flavor of the pepper.
+
+[1:02:28] Uh another pepper question. I recently had a Caesar dressing with a lot of pepper that had a very mild black pepper flavor, and I'm a feeling they muted the sharper flavors by cooking beforehand. I know that Dave has cooked mustard cheese and garlic in a pressure cooker, but what do you think would happen if you cook pepper? And um, and then there's uh another section on yay toast and brin brunos, but we'll deal with that later because uh we'll talk about that because unless Harold has a burning desire to talk about brown Scandinavian cheeses. Uh go pepper.
+
+[1:02:55] Okay. Okay, cheeses are all yours. Um Pepper. So uh whenever you toast spices, you're doing a couple of things. One is that you are uh helping to release the the aromas because the aromas are are held in um you know little cellular containers, and those need to be broken open before we can uh detect the the volatiles that they contain.
+
+[1:03:20] But then the other thing is that um that wonderful smell that you're getting as you toast them is going up into the kitchen air and out of the pepper. So uh the pepper may end up having much less flavor than it did to begin with, uh depending on how long you've toasted it. So just be aware of the fact that that's the case, that you're on the one hand liberating aromas and to some extent creating them uh with uh high temperature, uh, but you're also losing them at the same time. And so my my advice would be to use a mixture of fresh ground and toasted, and then you'll get the best of both. All righty.
+
+[1:03:58] Uh well, that's always like like uh, you know, Jeffrey Steingart used to say, why do you add pepper at the beginning? Yeah, but I'm just adding something. It's the he's already answered, it's over. So uh like uh added the beginning and at the end. I think I like a I like a double pepper addition.
+
+[1:04:12] Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I do too. Yeah, yeah. Uh because I like the bitterness, but then I also like the aroma.
+
+[1:04:18] Kind of like hops. You know, you had some for the bitterness and some for the aroma. Anyway. No, remember we started talking about something else, and then I said that I was gonna talk about something else. Anyway, uh Brian writes in and would like maybe I think Harold's gonna be the most important, but then you know, invites us to weigh in, which is very nice.
+
+[1:04:35] Brian from Minneapolis. My question for Harold uh for the new book, Nosedive is what's the best and worst thing you smelled while doing research for your book? Uh this question could also go for anyone else on the show. That's a tough one. Um two two minutes of silence, how about that?
+
+[1:04:58] Well, uh, you know, I did feel obliged because it the the book covers uh smells good and bad, I did feel obliged to pay very close attention to uh excreta of all kinds. And uh there uh I did it for the book. I wouldn't um willingly do it again. Uh most pleasant um that's tough. Wait so like how many different kinds of poop are you talking about?
+
+[1:05:27] When whenever and whatever I would come across we've we've had uh a raccoon infestation recently for example so all right how does raccoon poo smell as opposed to it's they're omnivores you know so it's it's um not not as bad as after uh uh a human being for example has a a nice big steak uh the steak poo that's the worst thing you're saying that you smelled for the book is this worse than the surstroming oh that's uh well but the uh Sir Stroming yeah that's right up there that's right up there but you know that's something you can eat and then so that's got a different kind of valence to it you know it it is something that you can uh sort of appreciate in a in a different sort of way one can eat it yes yeah yeah so uh Nastasi you were there for that one when Harold was like this one's not as good because it doesn't also have that sous vomit we because like the one that we brought back, it's like didn't have quite enough of a vomiting note for Harold to say it was the true the the the height of Sir Stroming. Well, it was it that was only my second Sir Stroming. The first one did have much more uh you know, uh the the vomit, uh the baby poop, uh the it it just had a richer palette of aromas than the one you got. And so what's the best? Was agar wood really great?
+
+[1:07:00] That's pretty that's pretty wonderful. Uh I would say that the the incense materials in general, which I had not known anything about until I started working on the book. And uh thankfully Mandy Aftel, the perfumer in Berkeley, uh, you should look her up uh at Aftelier. She has a collection of these amazing natural materials, um incense woods and resins and gums and uh ambergris and civet and they're uh they are out of this world. So I I began to understand why it is that they were used and valued as much as they were.
+
+[1:07:44] All righty. So the non uh the non-Herold questions have been uh postponed until next week, the week after that. We're not gonna have a show because election and it's gonna give all of us adjudice, so we're not gonna do a show. Uh the book when is the book available right now, or do they have to wait before they go by? It should be on shelves and in stores right now.
+
+[1:08:05] Remember to buy the American version with the incense on the front and not the British version with the Erlenmeyer. Did you go through and change all the spellings of all the words of like labor and color and flavor? Nope. That that would be up to the English publishers, and I think they just uh took took the same plates as the American edition. Well, thank goodness for that.
+
+[1:08:25] Uh the book is Nosedive, a field guide to the world smells. But I I didn't, I just did it with a normal voice at the time. Nosedive. Like I you haven't decided how you want me to read it. Anyway, the book is nosedive.
+
+[1:08:37] Uh available at fine uh booksellers uh anywhere. Uh Harold McGee, thanks so much, as usual, and hope to see you in the real life when all this COVID nonsense is done. Yes, yes. Can't can't wait. It's been way too long.
+
+[1:08:51] Can't you wait? Can't you wait, Harold, to do another big party and dress up like Zoltar? Well, if if if we can have uh, you know, toppling grills and uh everything that we had that that time, sure, anytime. Yes. For sure, right, Dave?
+
+[1:09:08] Always. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but at this time I want him to just dress as a giant nose, like the uh like the um well, whose short story is that the nose is dressed as a giant nose. Yeah, Google, yeah, the nose. Yeah.
+
+[1:09:21] And then we'll only play uh parliament. I am the nose. Devoid of funk. That one, you know what I and I will never dance, and we'll just do that the whole time, and like so you can be dressed as a giant nose in the parliament outfit would be amazing. Yes, I like that.
+
+[1:09:35] That's good. That's the next, that's the next one. We would have done that for your book release party if we weren't in COVID. If we weren't in COVID times, but for those of you like when we do our next museum, uh whatever it's called, Nastasia will make sure that that happens. And so you will get to see Harold dressed as a nose in a parliament outfit.
+
+[1:09:55] Like if you come if you you know shell out for the next uh California Mofad event, once we're all allowed to have these sorts of things again. Would you say it's accurate, Nastasia? Absolutely. Laying down the foundation now. Laying it's laying it down.
+
+[1:10:08] Well, she's sitting there stewing in to in beautiful Topanga. Other than last week when I was like, I don't really want to let people know where I'm staying. And you were like, okay. Does everybody remember that? Do I just want to be clear?
+
+[1:10:22] Or is it a red herring? Are you not into Mango Canyon? And Dave is just leading them astray. No. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:10:31] I'm not that smart. Great. Anyways. Uh and oh, by the way, California people. Is the air mellowed out yet?
+
+[1:10:37] Can you see again? Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's it's fine. Fine at the moment. Yeah.
+
+[1:10:42] All right, good. All right. Well, anyway, uh, best to everyone and Harold. Hopefully, again, see you soon. Bye, nosedive cooking issues.
+
+[1:10:54] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:11:08] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:11:30] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. Learn more at Appeal.com. This week on Meet and Three, we look at the ways indoor and outdoor spaces are being reconceptualized during the pandemic to better suit new modes of living, working, and eating. This is about how we can grow indoors all year round, uh using proprietary technology that we've developed.
+
+[0:35] How do I have someone understand? Look, don't take a next to the June berries because you can eat those. That's free food. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm coming to you from the lower east side of Manhattan.
+
+[1:07] Uh we have with uh usual Nastasia the Hammer Lopez from an undisclosed new location, no longer in Topanga. Uh out there in Southern California. How you doing, Nastasia? Good. Yeah, great.
+
+[1:19] Uh we have uh John in actually in a booth somewhere in New Lab in Brooklyn. How you doing, John? Doing well, thank you. And it was your birthday yesterday. Happy birthday.
+
+[1:30] Thank you. Yeah, what'd you make? What'd you make? Uh had like a Benny Hana birthday kind of theme going on. So uh some friends and I we ordered some uh A5 Wagyu steak, did some fried rice, did like the you know, iceberg lettuce salad with a ginger carrot dressing, did some dipping sauces, all that stuff.
+
+[1:49] It was uh it was good. It was a lot of a lot of steak, really, like too much steak, actually. But y well, but well, I mean, you didn't do any flare work though. You didn't do any knife flare work, right? No, no, no.
+
+[2:00] Just straightforward simple. Didn't want to get too fancy. I told you yesterday that uh I'm petrified that Dax will learn of this because he has a he flips everything anyway. It's like a it's like some sort of like a uh tick that he has. Everything in his hands gets flipped, and so when he goes into the kitchen, he starts flipping, he's like, I'm not flipping.
+
+[2:18] I'm like, I'm watching you flip it in your hand. So like, you know, if you saw a Benihana chef, he would he would it would be game over. My mom what does he play tennis? You should get him into racket sports, it's a great flipping. Matt, we live in New York City, like you know, you need like um so like the but my mom, uh back when she was uh an intern uh and in an ER before she went into pediatrics, uh saw a Benny uh a Betty Hannah trainee come in with a severed finger.
+
+[2:50] Amazing, right? Whoa. Yeah, yeah, strong. Uh got Matt in his Rhode Island Heidi Hole. How you doing?
+
+[2:58] Doing great. Yeah. But today we have it's for the second week in a row, right? Wasn't Harold last week? Yeah.
+
+[3:05] Yeah. Special guests uh with uh their new their first book. We have uh P. Sorensen. Uh, how do you pronounce is it Sorensen or Surensen?
+
+[3:15] How do the Swedes pronounce the the O with an umlau? The the Switch would say Sorensen. Sornsen. Um but but I'm quite used to Sorensen now, so that's fine too. Yeah, and what's your current title at the Harvard butt?
+
+[3:29] Well, I have one of these wonderful long Harvard titles that are that don't mean anything outside of Harvard. I'm a senior preceptor. In chemical engineering and applied materials. Yes, it's a faculty position. It's a teaching faculty position with um with uh voting rights and PI rights.
+
+[3:47] Yeah. I don't know what to do. Which also means nothing to anyone outside of Harvard. Yeah, I have no idea what that means. Yeah.
+
+[3:54] But I mean, preceptor is a pretty cool title. I think everyone would like to be a preceptor of something. I don't even like it sounds like you're gonna hit someone over the head. Preceptor sounds like it's like it's like a class in Dungeons and Dragons or something. Yeah.
+
+[4:06] Like I'm a level 50 preceptor. Well, now you sound like a Scientologist. That's true. Some more. Yeah.
+
+[4:14] Um, nice. And uh Professor uh David Waits, also of the Harvard, how you doing? Good, Dave. How are you? Doing well.
+
+[4:23] Now uh now what's now okay. So uh long story short, here's what happened. So uh Michael Brenner, who couldn't be on with us today, uh Pia David Waits, they have this class they've been teaching at Harvard for the past, I think it's is this the 11th or 10th year right now? 10th? 11th.
+
+[4:43] Is this the this is the 11th year? 11th year. So when teaching at 11 years, they started out with uh Faron uh Adrian, basically like Farron and uh Harvard got together because Fron was interested in microfluidics, right? Which is one of your specialities, Professor. Yeah, something like that, not quite, but it's close enough.
+
+[5:04] Yeah, yeah. And they decided to do a science and cooking course. Um, and kind of the rest is history. You guys and and for the 10th anniversary, they started last year working on a book which has just come out called Science and Cooking, which is ostensibly what we're here to talk about today. But you guys want to talk about the course for a minute first?
+
+[5:24] Uh sure. Sure. It started actually when Faran came and gave a talk at Harvard about science and cooking. I never thought a uh chef would be interested in science, but he was. And so Faron and uh and Michael and I uh we started talking and what could we do together?
+
+[5:43] Uh I mean, you know, I'm a physicist. You don't have rock stars in physics. You don't have chefs who attract huge audiences and not even Feynman. Not like Ferron. But anyways, we started a class on cooking and um using cooking, I view it as using cooking to teach non-scientists how to appreciate science, having an excuse to learn science because they can study cooking.
+
+[6:11] Um, but I think it's become even more than that. And Pia joined us the next year and really added an enormous amount to the class. Uh, and it's been going ever since. Uh, we bring uh famous chefs in every week, and they give a lecture about cooking, and then uh we try and give a lecture about uh the science behind it for the second lecture of the week. And uh for the past, I don't know, like nine or ever since I think the second year, you've had Harold McGee.
+
+[6:38] Well, Harold McGee was been there every year, but you had uh, and actually every year except for this year, we skip one episode of cooking issues because your class is always on on Tuesdays, roughly around the time of uh you know when I would have to be doing this, or at least it it was. So um, yeah, so like I've been going for the past, I don't know how many number of years doing the initial uh lecture, and I don't know, it seems to be going pretty pretty well. You're still guys are still going strong, right? Yeah, that's great. And I'm really glad that you come, Dave.
+
+[7:11] You had so much to the class. A certain Sousalong craziness. Yeah, I learned so much. I learned more. You and you and Harold are always uh really kick starting the semester with all these all of your amazing demos.
+
+[7:26] Um it's it's just this speeded through hour of demos. But but I have to say, I'm sorry to all, I didn't realize that you are not giving cooking issues on those days. I feel like I should take this opportunity when I'm here to apologize to your audience. That's too bad. Well, it's uh it's honestly it's in their best interest to have one fewer cooking issues to listen to.
+
+[7:47] Um, but the so this year was the first year that we had to do it uh remotely. And so I I didn't have kind of the my normal, you know. Normally what happens is there's a like an awesome at Harvard, they have in the science center, they have this kind of awesome back of house, and they have these kind of like amazing demo stations, and they have a guy named Daniel Rosenberg who does all the has like access to amazing demonstrations. You thank him in the book. And it's just really, really fun to do demonstrations at Harvard, uh, you know, because of this amazing back of house they have with kind of really cool equipment, including all the standard physics demos like shoot the monkey, and uh what are the other like big classic ones?
+
+[8:34] Other than the shoot the monkey is the only one I can remember by name, but zillions of classic demonstrations, right? Um, and so this is the first year I've had to, you know, work without that, um, kind of without that resource. And so I used my son Dax to do some uh to do some tests. And I hear, Pia, you were telling me that like the students were actually nervous that I was physically damaging Dax during the uh during the demonstration. Yeah, there was a great demo.
+
+[9:05] This was um this was uh the the the classic demo of he having a water bath at 60 degrees Celsius and having an oil bath at 60 degrees Celsius and then sticking your hand in and the students were watching as Dave ordered Dax to put his hands in and very quickly withdrawing his hands and looking having a very painful look on his face. And oil everywhere oil everywhere anyway. And then like you know of course like I'm not in like normal I well whatever. So people people like getting ready to call child services on me I think because I made him put it back like put it back in again do it again. And then I like took out the Searz all and I was seers alling over his hand and making him it was a it was a thing people uh you know checks out though right checks out.
+
+[9:52] Uh all right so you guys want to talk about the what? Well so I I was gonna just to give listeners a sense of what it's like when when you and Harold come to visit so for starters we're always just a little bit scared because you do this you you show up in the beginning of the semester when we talk about energy temperature and heat. And so you do this beautiful demo where you line up all the sous vide eggs at different temperatures and then you you open them and you're basically you're you're sort of friends with the eggs. You look at an egg and you're like this one is at 62.5 and it should be at 63 and and our team is is responsible for for making sure these eggs are there for you. And that's always a little bit scary because we know that even if we're off by half a degree, you're gonna catch us.
+
+[10:44] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and for those of you that don't know, like it's kind of it's difficult to put one of these kind of things together. Uh we know one of these kind of large demo things. Uh, very difficult. And uh to get kind of all the moving parts uh uh together.
+
+[11:00] And like anything can throw that demo off. Like if you over refrigerate an egg yolk, it can it can go uh you know, you can you can cause it to be kind of prematurely hard. It's kind of yeah, it's a kind of a nightmare. Uh and so I'm sure also if you're not used to dealing with me. I mean, those of you, I mean, all of you have dealt with me before.
+
+[11:18] So if you're not used to dealing with me, I'm told that I can make people nervous. I don't really understand why, but apparently, like I think people think I'm angry when I'm not, or maybe I don't know. What Nastasia, what do you think? You you you comment this to me all the time that I'm like this. You're an incredibly difficult person to work with.
+
+[11:40] Yeah, but like why? Because you aren't flexible. You are opinionated, you usually lash out at people. What do you mean lash out? Well, when things aren't done right, you usually lash out.
+
+[11:58] Well, I don't lash out at people. I I lash out maybe at people like in my I don't lash out at people who aren't in my immediate circle. Yeah, but I think that scares people when they see you yelling at me or somebody in your immediate circle, you know. I always assume that people who aren't in my immediate circle are gonna get stuff wrong. Because why would they know how to get it right if they haven't done it before?
+
+[12:22] You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh yeah, but it's a good, it's a good, and I see that you have a a version of that in the science and cooking books. You guys wanna talk about the book? Sure.
+
+[12:36] Do it. Well, which you provided a recipe for, by the way. We so the the very end of the book when we celebrate that we're all done, um, there is a recipe from you. So that's your your amazing Thai basil daiquiri. And now at the at the beginning of uh when we used to do this like a long time ago, we tried to get around the whole, I mean that's the problem with colleges here in the US.
+
+[13:03] They're so worried about alcohol that it's like it was hard for me to do any kind of alcohol-based um demos. But we did a couple of times do them in the evening lectures, right? And then even even they became kind of a pain in the butt about that, right? But it was nice to include the the Thai basil daiquiri. Uh I also noticed that you have so like most of the stuff that I deal with with you know with you guys is at the beginning, where you know, you're talking mainly about kind of physical things, heat, phase changes and whatnot.
+
+[13:36] But I noticed that you also get a lot into kind of other transformations in the book which wouldn't normally I think fit into the general rubric of a physics class, like um transformations due to enzymes, transformations due to fermentations, and things like that. So how how are you working that stuff into into a class that's basically on a physics? Um that's a good question. I think really the way we are explaining the science is you is inspired by the recipes and by the dishes that the chefs bring to the table. So just to give people a little bit of background, the way our class is structured is that every week a famous chef comes and talks about what they do, their work from their perspective.
+
+[14:31] And we then use that as a way to teach science to inspire a discussion about what is going on in the food and why are their dishes so successful. Why do they work? Right. The reason that recipes work is not a sort of random accident. It's it's grounded in scientific fact, and we can understand why they work by sort of asking the right questions and trying to figure out what's what's going on on a deeper level.
+
+[14:59] And I think when you do that, you realize that what's going on in food is not only physics, it's also chemistry and it's biology. And it what we've done in the course and what we're doing in the book is boiling it down to core concepts that kind of describe recipes, even recipes that are very different, like completely different recipes like steak and fried ice cream, you know, very very sort of different foods, but they can be explained by the same scientific concept that is underlying them and that is making them work. And by by kind of collecting these concepts, it just so happens that some of them are soft matter physics concepts, which is Dave's specialty, and some of them fall within chemistry and biology, which is which is my um my focus. Right. And so, like just to give people an idea, like you'll you'll have something on like emulsions, and you'll you'll put out like a a standard man standard mayonnaise recipe and talk about it, right?
+
+[15:59] And then on the other hand, you'll have uh, you know, a recipe from Moogaritz where you know you have to inoculate uh you know a crab apple with uh rhizopus and uh and you know uh incubate it. And yeah, so it's like it's like or you'll have a recipe that requires a rotary evaporator that you do like a an El Calar Ken Roca, one of uh Geordi's recipes, or you know, you'll so it's like all it's all over the map in terms of like what skill level and equipment level is needed, because the idea is to kind of show off this kind of interesting dynamic you create in the class between kind of things that your students can do, and then like the crazy stuff that these chefs are doing, some crazy, some not, but the recipes that you give are the actual recipes that they would use in the restaurant. So it's like yeah, well, you need liquid nitrogen to do it. You know what I mean? It's kind of so it's kind of interesting.
+
+[17:01] Uh it's kind of an interesting mix, wouldn't you say? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it really is. And I think that that's the that's goes back to what I was saying before of how it can be the same scientific concepts that are uniting, say, um, macadese with um, you know, manipulating the viscosity of sauces in a very hot cuisine setting.
+
+[17:26] Um and so it it we can we can think about it and ask questions about it, whether it's a very, very fancy dish or whether it's just you know the toast you have for breakfast. I know Dave, if I could just interject slightly different perspective, uh you know, she has a great teacher and knows all these things, and she's fantastic, and that's why it's great to teach with her. Uh, me, I'm just a physicist, and um what I like about it is the kind of physics that I do. If I try to teach a freshman physics course, which this is the level of freshman physics course, if I tried to teach a freshman physics course on the physics that I do, my colleagues would laugh me out of the department. They say you can't do that because you're not teaching Newton's laws and the Maxwell's equations and all this blah blah blah, which really most people never really need to know if they want to understand the world around them.
+
+[18:19] And I sort of feel that we teach the kind of physics you need to know to understand the world around you, because that's the kind of physics that I do. Um, and so to me, the class really is a science class, first and foremost, that the curriculum is science. And we're just really fortunate that these fantastic chefs like yourself or like Harold or like all the other people, Farran, Jose, all these people come and they teach us about cooking, but we can find what we need from the recipes and from the food and from the taste and from the way it's plated. We can find everything we need to get the scientific concepts to teach the scientific concepts. So, you know, you talk about mayonnaise.
+
+[19:07] Well, we can teach what an emulsion really is, and we can ask why is it solid? If it's just two liquids and you mix them together, why does it turn into a solid? You take foam, it's a liquid and a gas. How do you make it into a solid so you get whipped cream? We can teach all these simple concepts by uh referring to them, referring them to the uh culinary aspects.
+
+[19:30] Um, so to me it's still a science class, and everything you talk about is just looking at the science, and it's really part and parcel of the kind of science that I think is actually important to teach people. It's the the most useful kind of physics that you need. Yeah, and actually, I would add to that something that we've talked a lot about this semester, which is that so many of the concepts in cooking are also concepts, scientific concepts that occur outside of cooking. So, one of one of the things we did during the week when we discussed food fermentations is we showed um two curves. One of them was the growth of microbes in sauerkraut, and the other one was the uh growth of um COVID cases in New York City in March.
+
+[20:13] And of course, they're both exponential growth. And so by understanding exponential growth in in the context of sauerkraut, you can kind of understand it in the concept in the context of all kinds of other um issues in in the world around us. So you're saying we're all just like a big packed thing of sauerkraut here in New York? So I'm getting out of that. Um so you guys want to talk about actually what soft matter physics is, because it's not, I don't think, a generally known term among non-science people.
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+[20:49] Well, I can define it in a simple way. Um let's see. I always like to say if you're sitting on a chair with some uh handrests or the back of your chair or the bottom of your chair, if you try and take something or the table in front of you, if you take it and you grab it and you try and bend it, and you should try that or wait while you do it. I bet you won't be able to bend it. I bet you won't be able to make it move.
+
+[21:15] And then you say, well, pinch yourself, and you'll say, ouch, you can feel that. You can bend yourself, you can pinch yourself pretty easily. And that's the difference between something that's soft, you are, and something that's hard. And uh, you know, as people, we interact mainly with soft things. We don't like to bang into hard things, and a lot of things are closed, everything we around us are soft.
+
+[21:40] And um soft matter is really studying the general principles of why things are soft, what the what what the consequences of that is compared to why things are hard. And there's some very, very simple rules that make something soft and make something hard, and then once you start thinking about it, everything is very different, the behavior is very different than the rest of the world around you. And to me, most things that we interact with that are important to us are somehow related to soft matter, and so we better really understand that. Um just as if we were going to understand the more traditional kind of physics. Why do you think it's I mean, uh maybe I'm wrong in assuming this, but it seems like it's among you know studies relatively recently blossoming, right?
+
+[22:35] Yes. Why? Um, it's because it's not traditional, it's not you can't you can you it helps to have the traditional kind of physics as a background, but you need so much more of a background, you need so many other things, and it's just a recognition that there's really interesting physical properties that maybe we've ignored because physicists have been so enamored with the idea of quantum mechanics and things like that, which are of course are beautiful science and beautiful, very important, but uh really don't impact our lives as much as just what is around us. I always say, you know, Dave, I always say that you know, a lot of these people might be my doctors when I get really old and decrepit. A lot of my students, and I rather that they understand something about blood flow, about um viscosity, about the elastic properties of something like me compared to the more traditional physics, which is like how two billiard bar balls bounce against one another or something, how something's quantum mechanical, you know, that's not really important for understanding what's really relevant to the world around us.
+
+[23:51] And so matters, the world around us. Is part of it, are the models more difficult to simplify such that it required like a better computational basis before it could become a real, like kind of blossomed big field. I would say that the there the models are not as precise. Like I can calculate exactly how two billiard bars bounce against one another, provided, of course, I ignore all the realities of the world, like friction and uh the effects of air and a little water and the things like that, but I can calculate it very precisely using some very simple, beautiful equations. Whereas the equations that we use in soft matter are maybe more approximations.
+
+[24:34] Um they give you just as good an answer, but it's not as precise. And it's you have to think much more broadly. You have to think uh about uh you it's it's better to understand some physical concepts and accept the fact that you don't get absolutely precise calculations, but you get calculations that are good enough to tell you what's going on. We had a question about the book in from uh our our friend uh Sonny D, uh, who says, who is the book for? In other words, like who did you write it for?
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+[25:10] How does and this is important because uh you can also take this class online even if you're not uh a Harvard student, or at least you could, I'm assuming it's still available. Who is this book for? How does one access the recorded lectures as well as the course online? Ah, okay. Um I think the book is for anyone who is curious about the science that that goes on in food.
+
+[25:38] And it is I would I would not say that it's a book for people with tons of science background. It's it's really for a non-scientist um audience. I could imagine and I also think there are bits and pieces here and there. We we have two equations in the book, uh, whereas in the class we have we have many more equations, but the concepts of the equations are still there and and um the beautiful recipes are there. So I so I think for anyone who is sort of curious about the science of food, um, ranging from younger people to to older people to teachers, um, I think we'll we'll get something out of the book.
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+[26:18] And I also think it's a book for people who just want to be awed by some of the beauty of the recipes from the chefs. Um, the chefs who have contributed are, I think you could argue some of the greatest culinary minds of our of our times. And some of the creations are some of the greatest culinary creations of our times. And they're in there. And you can kind of think about the science with us as we walk through it.
+
+[26:44] So that's it for the first question. The second question, so yes, the you can take this class online on edX, the edX platform. And I think the easiest way to find it is probably to Google edX and science and cooking. And there are two courses. One is called physics and one is called chemistry.
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+[27:01] And they're they're kind of the kind of the they're they're one big course together. All of our basically all of our information is on our website called sciencecooking one word.cs.harvard.edu. And there are links there to our YouTube channels. There are links to our social media and so on. We do record the public lectures that happen every Monday night.
+
+[27:30] Just this past week, we had Marike van Burden the week before that. We had Jose Andres. And next week is Maya Warren. She's going to talk about the science of ice cream. All of this is on our website.
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+[27:43] So Google sciencecooking.cs.harvard.edu when you should find it. Cool. And Pavel Pavatsky wrote in, and you deal with this in the book for several reasons, but you you talk about pH shifts and alkalinity. And I believe actually you even got called out PA. You're a lover of loot fisk, or you just happen to be called out because you're Scandinavian.
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+[28:04] I have a love-hate relationship with with Lutfisk. I uh really did not like it at all as a child. It for those of you who've had it, it's uh sort of fish that has the consistency of fish jelly, but usually the condiments are really delicious. And I did love that as a kid. I love the potatoes and the peas, and in my part of Sweden, you eat it with mustard sauce, and there's um you know, disagreements about what the best condiments are, but the fish itself is is has a very different consistency, which I think freaked me out as a child.
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+[28:36] Um, and now I well, it's interesting. Right. So it's uh so for those of you that don't know, like loot fisk is treat treated with an alkaline it, like the the protein gets wickedly broken down, it turns kind of translucent and kind of jelly like, and it has a specific texture and aroma, correct? Yes, it has an aroma that is quite strong. Um, and and the texture is very special.
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+[29:08] It's it's this kind of jelly, it's sort of like you've swollen jelly-like piece of fish. And you make it with a white fish, so it's kind of this like a cod or or ling. Um, so so it's uh sort of this white blob. Um, yeah. And you're really you're really selling it, by the way.
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+[29:26] Yeah, white blob. Um the reas the reason I bring that up is because what Pablo is asking is what other alkaline cooking methods are there besides nickstamalization, which is of course treating uh corn, although you know we treat other things as well now, uh with alkaline to uh you know change the structure of uh grains so that you can turn them into things like tortillas. But what other uh alkaline cooking methods are there besides niximalization? And what does alkalinity do to foods in general? If you want to take it.
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+[29:54] That's a great question. Well, I I've I like that you you kind of answer the question by mentioning Lutvisk or Ludafish. Um I think other ones are the hundred-year-old egg, which is um raw eggs incubated for a long time in a salt and sometimes alkaline solution, which really changes the texture and the color of the egg. It turns this translucent brown and the yolk goes from being yellow to to sort of green blue. Um that's another example.
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+[30:27] Um let's see, but it's really an example of cooking with uh charge in a way. I mean, cooking ceviche is kind of the same thing, but opposite. That's cooking with acidity. And so when you cook with uh alkalinity, and of course, in the context of mixalization, you're not only cooking with alkalinity, you're also usually having calcium ions present, which are charged ions that that will also sort of mess with the net charge on proteins and denature them and and the hydroxide ions will sort of partly break them down and change change the texture. Yeah, in the book, you also uh uh do uh the modernist cuisine recipe where they they shift alkaline in pressure cooker for uh the uh kind of boosting of myard and browning reactions at lower temperatures when you shift out.
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+[31:26] So a bunch of things happen when you shift the pH, like a bunch, right? I mean, there's texture effects, there's taste effects, there's I mean, it's just yeah, did you ever did we ever in the class do um the translucent, the translucent eggs? Like the not the not actual hundred-year-olds, the translucent uh duck and chicken eggs with the with the lye treatment. I don't think we did it with you. We did a lot of eggs with you, but I don't think we did those.
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+[32:05] This episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash. We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in.
+
+[32:21] Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Because there's the thing: less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away, it also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs.
+
+[32:48] Appeal, food gone good, learn more at appeal.com. More Scandinavian questions. Do you ever hang out with your uh Norwegian cousins or no? I mean, not actual cousins, you know what I mean, like like country cousins. Um I I like Norwegians.
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+[33:08] Uh I I don't see them a lot. Okay. All right, all right. So, like, do you have and I'm gonna how do you pronounce the brown cheese? Is it yeet toast?
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+[33:15] How do you pronounce that? Uh I I would say yet toast, but I'm sure that's a sweetification. Do they have the a similar product in Sweden? Um, they may in northern Sweden. I'm from the south.
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+[33:26] Yeah. You're you're from Skona, right? Yeah. Yeah. So uh though that's where absolute vodka is made.
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+[33:33] Correct. You ever go to their distillery? I haven't been. I should go. There's like three people in the whole place.
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+[33:39] It's like one giant machine that produces all the absolute vodka with like like quite maybe there's 10 people in there. Like when a tour group shows up, it like more than doubles the number of people that are there. And then they have uh like everything is trucked around, and then they have like a warehouse, which is kind of like this amazing Indiana Jones warehouse with a machine that can pick up and put whole pallets in, and everything is uh, you know, it's it's it's bananas. You should check it out next time you're you're back home. Uh but do you like this?
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+[34:12] So this I mentioned how this is the only cheese that I've never really wrapped my head around liking is this is this kind of brown whey cheese from Scandinavia. Uh and so people have been writing in uh things. And so I'm just gonna like let you comment. Do you like this kind of product or no? Um, kind of both.
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+[34:32] It's an acquired taste. It it has this sort of sweet, slightly almost caramelized uh flavor. Do you agree? Do you like it? No.
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+[34:43] I I gotta give it another chance. It was one of those things where like it's like, you know how uh, oh, you don't, but John said a couple of weeks ago that he had a really bad experience with whiskey when he was like a uh, you know, a kid. What were you drinking, Jack Daniels and eating what? What was it? Spaghettios in a hot tub.
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+[34:59] Oh geez, hot tub spaghettios in Jack Daniels Nightmare, which has turned him off of both spaghettios and Jack Daniels, presumably for the rest of his life. At least, you know, from the time he was a teenager until he's 33. So like we don't know if it'll ever wear off, but it hasn't worn off yet, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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+[35:16] And so like I had a similar reaction to the Yay toast when I was a kid, where I took a giant chunk of it, put the thing in my mouth, I was like, it's not cheese, it's not cheese, and then that was it. Like I'm um, I guess I was ruined. But uh we had uh 91 Alex wrote in from Norway. Uh so I thought I'd mention it since you know Scandinavian day today. Uh at the bar I work, we put it on reindeer burgers with sour cream and lingonberry, but they put it on after it's taken off the heat so it doesn't melt, which would make it uh prim, which I don't even know.
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+[35:48] He says that's the soft cheese version. Uh and it's also traditionally used to make a sauce for reindeer. What do you think? That sounds great. Are you a fan of a reindeer burgers, reindeer meat?
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+[36:00] Um, I I do like it a lot. Yeah, it has a very special um sort of wild flavor. So what's the what's the difference in the flavor of reindeer meat from other meats? Um, well, it's been a while now. Um, but I find that it has this sort of rich uh sort of wild meat flavor.
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+[36:19] And then of course it's you it's often the way I've had it is often sort of dried and and and um smoked as well. And and then these these um flavors kind of come out even more when I had it up north in Sweden, it was just viciously, viciously overcooked. So it's kind of hard for me to kind of know to know what it was. And John Secord wrote in. Oh, by the way, uh Alex also wanted to know uh how to make some more red hot poker recipes for the red hot ale, but I'm not exactly sure what your question is.
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+[36:50] So please send it back in and I'll do it. And um John Seacord wanted us to uh know, and I haven't had a chance to look it up yet, but apparently there was a major uh uh cheesed Brunost tunnel fire in Norway in 2013. Are you familiar with this, Pia? Big big cheese fire. I know I missed that.
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+[37:08] Yeah, I'm gonna look it up. As soon as I'm off the air today, I'm gonna go look up the cheese tunnel fire. And I'm gonna ask you guys a uh random question about uh academic books. So I remember reading academic books before everyone only read academic books on the internet. And then I've been doing some research for my my next book.
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+[37:27] And if you guys noticed that chapter books are really, really terrible now because everyone assumes that you're just gonna download individual chapters, and so every chapter of a book has to start with the same stupid introduction. A potato is the fourth most grown thing. I've if I I've been reading potato stuff like left, right, and center now for the past couple of days. And these way that these books now work, every ch every chapter has to have that same dumb intro. A donkey is an animal with four feet.
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+[37:59] We know. Just talk about the interesting part of the donkeys. Have you guys noticed this in academic publications? I haven't, Steve. I don't know.
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+[38:09] Violence. I don't read uh books that often, especially academic books. When I read them, I have nice copies. I'm old-fashioned. You know, I go to my bookshelf, I take them out of my bookshelf.
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+[38:21] So yeah, but I'm not the right person uh to ask uh Dave, but I'm too old-fashioned. I I still like book books. Yeah, well, me too, but they're so expensive. Who could buy these things? You know, and I don't have the Harvard Library to buy them for me, you know.
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+[38:34] So I have to read them. And the the thing is is that look, I guess the other thing is is that someone who's just starting, they have to read all the review books, right? So someone's like, I'm gonna come out with a book on potatoes, and uh they so like you know, they get an editor, and then that editor like look goes and gets all the potato experts, and each potato expert puts a chapter in, right? And then they're all kind of agglomerated into this quote unquote book, which is a series of chapter articles, which no one buys the book anymore, and it's all downloaded. But I guess that's for that's for non-specialists.
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+[39:09] If you're a specialist in the field, you just read all the literature as it comes out like journal article by journal article, right? Well, you try, but there's too many journal articles, or you don't even do that anymore. You hope you talk to your friends and you figure out what's going on. Yeah, you well, actually, this is something interesting uh that a lot of people ask me. Maybe I'll ask you guys, since uh you do this professionally.
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+[39:30] Um, how do you go about assessing whether or not uh a given paper if you're not a specialist, how do you go about assessing whether a given paper is garbage or not? It's not even clear you can assess it when you are a specialist. I think it uh it's to me uh a paper is not garbage if it if it stands the test of time. If you keep going back to it and you you use the results and you believe the results and you keep believing them a couple years later, then it's probably good paper. Do you think that scientists suffer from so like people who write about cooking in science?
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+[40:13] I have noticed, as this is you know, something I do, or not just write about it, talk about it, use it, you know, develop recipes, etc. Like kind of the world in which I live. Um we tend to run one or two experiments and then incorrectly assume that we have information that exceeds what we've tested, and therefore say, uh, for instance, I'm thinking about what I'm working on now in terms of should you salt meat before you cook it, right? And so I've always had kind of a very standard story about what you know what I think the answer is. Other people have had a 100% diametrically opposed theory about what you should do, and they kind of stand by it.
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+[41:00] And I think like all of us are suffering from this idea that we run only a couple of experiments and then assume that we know more than we know. I know this is an issue in in cooking, but I mean I'm assuming that's also an intro uh a problem in with science in general, is kind of getting over your uh you know, assuming that your results tell you more than they do. I think that happens a lot. Um, and I think uh I think it's probably the same in science as it is in cooking, that you probably know there are a few authors in cooking whose work you really trust. If they say something you know they've really done the right experiments and they really back the uh their statements with something you believe.
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+[41:44] I think it's the same in science that uh you you learn to trust certain people. And um, of course, science is forever growing, as I'm sure cooking uh literature is. And so when new people come along, you you have to be a little skeptical and you have to wait and see and read their work for a while, think about them. In science, usually you talk to them, you meet them, and it takes a while to build up to build enough trust that you can really trust them. I suspect it's the same in the cooking literature.
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+[42:21] I always tell my students there's a lot of noise out there, and you want to have a little signal in the in to stand out among the noise. That's tough. And so you have to write well, you have to do experiments well. You have to really have a very high level of integrity in your own work. So that uh when people read it, they'll trust it.
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+[42:50] All right, let's do some questions. You guys may or may not have answers. I may or may not have answers. These are actual questions for the listeners, unless Matt has specific stuff from the chat room. Do you?
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+[43:01] You don't even have Matt. So, all right. Uh Silky wrote in via Instagram. I just listened to episode 180, uh, which was a long time ago. What are we at now?
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+[43:09] Episode 8,395, Nastasia. I think now we're like, I don't even know. I have no idea. Okay. Uh I worry I've been cooking my lobster stock too long.
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+[43:19] I'm hoping you can tell me the optimal simmer time. Uh many thanks in advance. I don't have a number. Uh so the problem with lobster stock, in my opinion, and Nils, you know, uh Nils Norrin, uh, our friend, uh, is that when you cook the lobster shells too long, it all of a sudden takes taste takes on what Nils and I would call a calcium taste. Now, whether it actually is calcium or not, it goes from being a nicely flavored kind of lobster situation to like a shelly kind of calcium taste.
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+[43:50] And maybe Pia knows whether, like whether that's actually something that's happening, whether extended boiling can. I mean, it wouldn't render the calcium more soluble, right? But maybe, I don't know. What do you think? What do you think that is?
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+[43:59] You ever you have any thoughts on that? Um, I don't know. I don't know. You know what I'm talking about? You boil lobster shells too long and right, right.
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+[44:11] Well, whenever this happens to me, I think about, and I don't know if this is still the case, but I know that you know how flavor molecules can be detected at different concentration levels. And at least last time I looked, one of the flavor compounds that was that we could had been found to be able to be detected at the lowest concentration level, which is like um I I kind of remember some ridiculously low number was a compound from seafood. So whenever, whenever I feel that that sort of a bad, strange seafood taste, which of course may be totally different from what what you're talking about here, I I think of that, that there are some really potent flavor molecules um in there. Um we have a question in from Lisa in Somerville. Uh and for Nastasia's information, uh, she's female, 43, married, and buys anything that she wants, uh, both at home and at the bakery that she owns with her husband.
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+[45:11] That's one for your for your uh what's it called for your for your knowledge there. Um a fun fact about her bakery is it's in the same space where Madeline Common had her cooking school when it relocated to New Hampshire in the late 80s. Uh that's nice to know. Uh she never got to meet her though, she passed away before uh she met her. So anyway, um so uh other than the bakery, she teaches pastry classes at a at a community college and has students uh talk about a German bakery trick from the old days where they made their own fake vanilla flavor by combining, and here's it here it is.
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+[45:44] And this is for anyone, if you're on the chat or whatever listening, let us know. By combining prune juice, by the way, I like prune juice a lot. You guys like prune juice? No. I mean, it tastes good.
+
+[45:56] I wouldn't like pound a lot of it, like you know, that's what I have coffee for. But I think it actually, first of all, like I think prunes underused in general. How is prune juice anyway, prune juice? It's really plum juice, right? I mean, let's be honest, it's plum juice.
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+[46:08] You don't dehydrate it and then juice it, right? Anyways. Um, equal parts prune juice and vodka. At first it was terrible, but after letting the mixture sit at room temperature for a week or two, it tasted surprisingly like vanilla. My question is, why does this work?
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+[46:21] I'm also curious about the history of this, but I'm guessing it comes from a time when vanilla beans couldn't be transported because of wartime, etc. Any insights would be appreciated. Uh thanks so much. Love the show, Lisa. Uh so I don't have any information on that.
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+[46:34] Uh, there is a huge history of uh a fake vanilla, but you know, fake vanilla in the form of vanilla became extremely um cheap prior to World War II. Um, I used to have the curves actually of vanilla cost and vanilla in, which is the primary flavor component over time. I used to have those charts handy. I don't anymore. Um but uh yeah, nothing is high in vanilla in there.
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+[47:00] That seems more like a I don't know. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? Prune prune juice and vodka. I mean, the vodka is vodka for sure, but the prune juice, I don't know. It seemed like fake aging, like polyphenols.
+
+[47:14] It's a weird one though. So anyone that can talk about this, uh, I'd be happy to, I'd be happy to hear what what is going on. There's also a huge during Prohibition era, a huge um, and in fact, um, David Michael, the um the flavor house in Philly slash uh New Jersey, one of their things they started with as a flavor house was uh fake uh like fake aged liquor flavors for bootleggers. So it's like you know, things that mimic um like one of the things about real vanilla other than you know vanilin is um kind of its kind of fermented woody uh and kind of uh age notes. And these are also ones that are important for people who are making fake boozes, and often people, if they don't have vanilla, will substitute just a uh like a vanilla e like a whiskey or a booze.
+
+[48:04] Uh I mean John won't because he hates whiskey. But um so maybe that's it. But anyway, I'd appreciate anyone uh letting me know if they have any any ideas on it. Um let me see. Christopher uh Cosmos wrote in.
+
+[48:20] Hi guys, uh hoping this isn't the inappropriate avenue. Apparently not because I'm reading it. Uh have you ever tried to clarify soy sauce or say ponzu? Would this test be similar to a citrus? Would the bean uh proteins break down with SPL andor uh kita sankesel salt, or is it different agent needed?
+
+[48:35] The reason I'd be looking to do this is uh carbonate it and having a bit more shelf stability. Thank you if this doesn't fall on deaf ears, and if it does, thanks also. Uh interesting thing about soy sauce, soy sauce is clear. Um, I don't know if you guys want to talk about this on the on the Harvard side, but a lot of people, um, you it's easy to confuse very dark versus cloudy, right? Like soy sauce is just intensely dark.
+
+[49:00] Ponzu probably not, right? Ponzo is probably needs clarification. But um soy sauce, I believe, is clear. You know what's not clear? Whocesteshire sauce.
+
+[49:09] It's got a lot of suspended anchovy in it. If you spin the suspended anchovy out of so uh Worcestershire sauce, it becomes clear again, but it loses a lot of its complexity. Um you guys want to talk about this at all? Or I mean, because I I could just spout on about clarification. Sure.
+
+[49:23] I mean, I can just say um nothing that you don't know, Dave, but I mean the something that is clear but dark or colored, it absorbs the light. Something that is uh either colored or even not colored, it could be white, it uh but is uh opaque, it scatters the light. So the light comes, it's not absorbed, it's just scattered. And that's why milk is white, but it scatters light a lot. You can't see through it.
+
+[49:54] Uh, if you take away all the fat and also the the milk uh micells, then you can see through it. Um same thing with your comparison of Worcestershire sauce and um soy sauce. Soy sauce is just absorbing. It's there's there's small uh molecules or tiny, tiny, tiny particles at most that will absorb light, but it won't scatter the light. Worcestershire sauce, uh little granules that that scatters, it also absorbs, but also scatters.
+
+[50:28] Yeah, and also I'd be um careful about trying to use any enzyme which is a protein, not careful, it's not gonna hurt you, but I mean I I would doubt it would work in that high of a salt environment. It's just too dang salty. I mean, and you know, PO, you were talking about this before, uh, shifting things around with proteins, but wouldn't you guess that you know it would be hard to find um you know an off-the-shelf enzyme that would like to? I mean, in other words, the salt is there, and a certain group of enzymes work in it, and that's how soy sauce works. But the odds that you just choose a random enzyme enzyme and it's gonna work in that high of a salt environment are probably pretty rare, right?
+
+[51:08] Wouldn't you think? Yes, I would think so. I mean, in other words, like we put things, and this goes to Jeff Talent's question, wrote in, good morning. Any issues with fermenting cauliflower and garlic in a vacuum bag. Uh, if I just add 3% salt by weight and vac it down, uh, I want to make an escabesh for a friend who misses the Yucatan.
+
+[51:26] Uh, I do sauerkraut like this all the time, but I've never done anything else. I'm assuming if your salt level is high enough, you'd be you'd be safe enough. But a lot of what we're we do is we we're sh we shift a recipe into a zone where a specific thing that we want to have happen happens, right? So you add enough salt to the soy and only the enzymes that make the the good stuff that makes this soy sauce work happens and nothing else does, right? And so that's why it works.
+
+[51:53] So the odds that Pectenex SPL, which by the way, strangely works very well in high alcohol environments, the odds that it would work in that high of a salt environment, I think low. The other thing is it's not gonna break down proteins at all. It has no protease function whatsoever. So if you do have a protein cloud, it won't help. It also won't break down starch, so that won't help.
+
+[52:15] Um what else? Uh SPL also has a very specific pH range. It doesn't, I don't know the pH of soy sauce, but it doesn't like uh a very high or very low pH. So if you're if you're well by high I mean neutral, it likes it to be slightly acidic but not too acidic. Uh you know, every enzymes are weird.
+
+[52:33] You know, it's like Pia, like you were talking earlier about, you know, um you change the conformation of something, you change the reactivity that an enzyme has with temperature, with pH, and there's things can have windows, right? So things can work really well in a very specific window, but not at all on other windows, right? Yeah, exactly. There's there's kind of a set of conditions, and and if you're within the ranges where enzymes work or where the microbes work, um you you exactly, it's like you say, they you can make them happen. One thing, my comment on the cauliflower recipe is that um a lot of these lactic acid fermentations also require that you get rid of all the oxygen.
+
+[53:14] So, and since cauliflower kind of has this very intricate structure using a vacuum to really get it all out, um, to again to get a range where there is no oxygen there so that you can favor the the particular microbes that is gonna make make the fermentation happen. Yeah, and this actually goes to a demo that we do do. Uh we didn't do it this year. Well, we did it this year. Uh yeah, Daniel did it, I forgot.
+
+[53:40] Um, that we do every year at Harvard, and I used to do at the French culinary, is um sucking extra vacuum time on something like a cauliflower because there's trapped air on the inside. And so if you just suck a you know a light vacuum on it, it's not even when I say light, I mean time wise, right? It just takes a certain amount of time to get the air out of something like uh a cauliflower. But uh, I didn't even think about that. It probably is a lot better for for something like that just because as long as you suck the vacuum long enough, you can probably evacuate a lot more of the air and not have any of those uh nasty aerobic things going on.
+
+[54:16] Right? Right. Right. And then we have one more microbe question. Uh hey, Dave Nastasia, and the rest.
+
+[54:23] This is from Michael uh Javi. I've been making panetone. I know, Stasi, is it panotone that you don't like? She dropped some. I don't know if she's gonna make a little different.
+
+[54:36] But I think she doesn't like panatone. I can't remember why. I think it's because people like it. I don't remember. I've been making uh panetone this year using a stiff starter or a pasta madre, uh, which is like a it's like a stiff starter.
+
+[54:48] I'm hoping you shed some light on why the stiff starter is maintained in water uh and why it's necessary to give the occasional bath in a very dilute sugar solution. So far it's been working, and my panetone has had a great rise in low acid, but is all this necessary? It seems like folk, uh like nonsense folk science to me, thanks, Mike from Toronto. Uh okay, so for those of you that don't know, um what this is is is instead of it being instead of having like a one-to-one uh sourdough starter, this is much stiffer. I don't know the actual ratio, but I think it's closer to a 50% hydration, which would mean a hundred grams of flour and 50 grams of water, and also typically with some sugar in it.
+
+[55:25] And uh, I think that the point of adding sugar, um, you know, and and the point of it having it be dry is that uh they're trying to select for yeast as opposed to bacteria. So yeast are not gonna make your your sourdough sour. Uh yeast are gonna make it rise quickly. So if you want a and and also there's and and you guys should talk about this, I'll turn it over to you in one second, but like different yeast strains are different, and so one of the things that they talk about is uh osmo-tolerance, like something that is can tolerate a uh high osmotic pressure, which means uh a lot of solutes in there. And so a little bit of sugar will a feed the yeast, and it will also um select for yeast that can grow in a uh and the low amount of water and the and and the and the sugar will select for osmo tolerant yeast such that when you're putting it into a high fat, high sugar dough, uh you have more yeast than bacteria.
+
+[56:22] It's therefore it's going to be less sour and it's going to rise farther. You guys want to talk talk about like uh like uh osmotic things in general or this problem in particular. I I I like so I I I don't know the recipe in detail, but I really like your I think that sounds right to me. And I've seen great examples how of how you um if you slowly increase the sugar concentration over time in a sourdough or that that you can you're actually selecting for yeast that are more and more um osmo tolerant. Um so uh osmosis is this idea that when you have um how can you say it in in a way that makes sense when you have a a certain concentration of um ions or molecules outside the cell, um, they will kind of leak water to to uh to to even out that concentration.
+
+[57:23] And this tends to be very um detrimental to to cells in general. Um I mean the the similar thing is when you um anyway, it lets and let's end there. It's basically a way of of killing microbes. And so if you want to select for certain microbes that are tolerant, you you can do it by kind of slowly selecting for the ones that are able to tolerate it. Yeah, and as for storing it in water, I mean, uh sounds like just an like an anti-desiccation issue for me.
+
+[57:58] Um I don't know. I mean, I would have to run a bunch of A B tests on whether or not that's actually necessary or not. But again, like having a different surface quality from a bulk quality, um, in other words, so like the bulk of the starter being one thing and the surface being another, like this radically affects whatever is is growing inside in the same way that washed rind cheeses are affected by the fact that you have a surface phenomenon and then a bulk phenomenon. So it could affect it, and it could that part could be in other words, nothing is folk nonsense in the sense that I'm sure there's a difference. Whether that difference is important or can be worked around is a separate question, right?
+
+[58:41] Wouldn't you say that's yeah? I I love what you say about the A-B testing. And this was what I was gonna say. Um, and one of the things we so often talk about in our class and with our students is that you can go and find out. You you can go into your kitchen and you can run the tests and see what happens, and um you know, you can be a you can be a scientist in your kitchen and um and find out, and then you can come back and you can tell us next week.
+
+[59:10] Yeah, I thought you know, I I always say I always say that. I say, like, try it and let me know. You know what I mean? Um, Peter Hill wrote in uh go pretty surely. So Peter, he's just calling this is uh Pete from St.
+
+[59:25] Pete. I'm making my way through the backlogs, and six years ago you got a question about reusable sous-vide bags, and you said there were no good options. Uh, and then within five years we would have biodegradable sous-vie bags. And now, all right, thanks, Pete. Thanks.
+
+[59:38] I love this. Thanks, man. Thanks. Uh, do we have biodegradable bags yet? Wow.
+
+[59:45] Uh, or any advancement in reusable sous vide bag technology. Uh love the show, keep up the great work. And for the research, I'm 33 married male that does the cooking in-house, and my wife encourages me to get whatever gadgets I want because cooking is a passion of mine, and she gets to eat the delicious stuff as a result. Um, so there is or has been in the past couple of years, uh, there's a company called Stasher that makes uh silicone bags um that are it's possible to use for um some low temperature work. The issue with them is have you guys used these at all?
+
+[1:00:17] You know what I'm talking about? They're they're molded silicone bags. Um they have a couple of uh issues. Uh I've been testing them rather extensively over the past month and a half. Uh the one issue is is that while they are very it's almost impossible to suck a vacuum on them because there's no kind of one-way valve on it anywhere.
+
+[1:00:36] Uh, and because of their stiffness, it's even somewhat difficult to do the old uh like ziploc dip and dip and do, but you can do it. The interesting thing about them is because they're silicone, you can put them in a pressure cooker and they and they work on retort and they do seal rather well uh under negative pressure, i.e. when they're being contracted, they do not seal well under positive pressure. So when you pressure cook something and the air that's inside of a food stuff expands and then uh exits, right, as the temperature goes up, it will open the bag. So it doesn't work well on.
+
+[1:01:15] So they need to work on that uh if they're gonna do it. I've also used um reusable um like ziplocks and wearings, and they're wearing bags, and they're okay, but we're not where I thought we would be, where you just have bags that you know are made out of some sort of plant thing, and then you know they just kind of turn into the earth when we're done. Um this is something that someone at Harvard should figure out and become a billionaire. Why does someone figure this out at Harvard? The the the biodegradable food packaging, you figure that stuff out, you know, and you don't have to work anymore.
+
+[1:01:48] Lots of people are trying. Unfortunately no billionaires yet. Yeah, yeah. Um I do invite all cooking issues listeners to go back and the archives and find every time that Dave has been wrong and let us know. Uh we'd be here a long time.
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal, helping you to enjoy your fruits and vegetables at peak freshness and reduce food waste. Learn more at Appeal.com, APEL.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're talking about comfort food as we explore its history, meaning, and different interpretations from around the world. Dumburi is just a simple casual dish, but it's packed with the history. Somebody might have their comfort food be something that they remember eating at their friend's house, but they would never have at their own home.
+
+[0:33] Consuming foods that were eaten then can bring back some of those feelings from those times. It's about creating these little breaks and moments during the day where you kind of feel present. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. On our Intercontinental Show, actually, Transcontinent, I guess.
+
+[1:31] Show. We have uh Nastasia Lopez on the piano. Aaron Polski doing the bass notes on the piano with his left hand. That's the poll cat for those of you that listen to the show. And Pat Posy on the saxophone, playing a song that uh, you know, I don't know when to come in on because it's not our normal introduction song.
+
+[1:53] You know, you know. So welcome to Cooking Issues. We have uh Matt in his uh Rhode Island uh troll booth and we got uh John chillin' in the Murray Hill of uh Manhattan. How you guys doing? You feel great now.
+
+[2:10] So uh Pat, thanks for uh you know, and you know, not not to not thank you, Polcat, but uh you know, Pat, thanks for uh coming on and uh performing that live. I um insulted you beforehand because you said you were going to pre-record it, and I was like, what kind of what kind of classical musician is not gonna just come play it live? What's that? That's what I said. And you said that I was being uh an inappropriate uh bad human.
+
+[2:39] Is that true? Speechless. Speechless. Did we lose those guys? Uh uh no, they're still on, supposedly.
+
+[2:50] And now they haven't said anything yet, but we also have special guest, which longtime listeners of the show will be very excited to know. We have Jackie Molecules! That's right, Jack Insley is in Los Angeles right now, or whatever the hell fake Los Angeles you guys are actually in outside of Los Angeles, whatever form of No, this is this is real Los Angeles. You're in real Los Angeles? This is real Los Angeles.
+
+[3:15] You're not in some sort of like external canyon or some sort of valley or no, not yet. That's next show. Alright. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[3:23] Oh, you guys are doing a tour. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, the the the lower west coast tour.
+
+[3:29] And in a uh nice inversion of the universe, it's like 75 degrees here in Manhattan today, and what is it where you are? Is it back up being like normal or is it still real cold over there? It's normal ish. It's let's see. It's about 60 right now.
+
+[3:44] All right. So, Senor Molecules, why don't you let people know what uh you've been up to since you were last on the show? The last time um we had you on the show was for our 10th anniversary, which was sometime during the COVID or not during the COVID, before the COVID? I think it was maybe at the beginning. Um I had started a new network with the Lion Hotel called Full Service Radio.
+
+[4:05] Thanks to COVID, that's on hiatus. So I'm out here in LA living my best life. Ready to produce anybody's podcast that needs help. Really? Like podcast for hire?
+
+[4:17] Sure. Mike will travel. Yeah, I mean, like like we did just now. We've got a whole four mic set up in Stadz's swanky apartment. So, like, do you show up like Clorox everybody?
+
+[4:28] Like, let's say you were gonna go do a uh produce something for someone that you like didn't know that wasn't in your kind of immediate thing. Would you just show up in like a hazmat suit and like just clorox the hell out of everybody or no? Sure, yes. Very distant. We have very long mic cables, you know.
+
+[4:44] Yeah, so uh well, so I had to do the same thing for my mom's 70th birthday this this weekend because they're like super they're you know, they're super hardcore because my mom, you know, is a you know has a lot of uh risk factors, and uh so Booker, I gotta whisper into the mic because he's here. Booker made this like awesome cake that like in the shape of a 70, like he, you know, iced it in blue because my mom likes blue and all this stuff, and you know, we took it and kind of dropped it off like at like a like like a burnt offering at at an altar, right, on a chair 12 feet away from you know my mom, and then you know slowly backed away, drove back into the city because they live outside of the city. I think they probably didn't eat it. Which is kind of sad, but I'm not gonna say that such that anyone can hear it, because I think they're that paranoid that unless they can like flamethrow it, they don't, they don't, they don't eat it, as far as I can tell. Interestingly, uh my stepfather opened a $4,000 bottle.
+
+[5:44] He didn't pay $4,000. He's had this wine in his cellar since 1986 or 87, but he opened what is now a $4,000 bottle of $85 DRC for my mom's 70th birthday. And for any of you out there who are wondering, is the 85 DRC still standing up? I know there's at least one of you out there. Apparently it was delicious, transcendent.
+
+[6:06] And then I spoke to my uh, I asked my my Gerard, my stepfather, the you know, the of Jespidi fame, the like the Italian side, the Boston Italian side of my family. I was like, so I was like, how does this rate with all of you know other burgundies we've had? It's like, oh, by far and away the best burgundy I've ever had. Now, bear in mind, all this this only things on earth that my stepfather likes are, and I'm not gonna choose the order, my mom, fishing, wine, cigars. Those are the that's it.
+
+[6:35] That's that's all. They're endeth the list. If you try to buy him something that is about that, like a book about like a murder mystery about someone who like owns a vineyard, he's like, I don't care about this. I want the juice. I like the wine.
+
+[6:47] You know what I mean? He doesn't care about any of the other, like, anyway, same with cigars, same with fishing. He doesn't want to hear about fishing, he wants to be fishing. Anyways, specifically surf casting. So I said to him, I was like, this is the best burgen you've ever had.
+
+[6:59] I was like, yeah. And now trying to get an idea from him, like how much he thought it was actually worth. Like, what was it worth? And bear in mind, he is a uh, you know, a tenured psychiatrist, and my mom, you know, is a pediatric cardiologist, you know, also, you know, fully tenured, you know, and they've been doing this a long time. So it's, you know, they're not hurting, right?
+
+[7:19] So I said, uh, I said, uh, so like how much would you pay? It's like, oh, I would never pay this amount of money. I was like, well, like if you were at a restaurant and it was $400 and you so would you reach into your pocket and pull out $400? And he said no to that. Can you believe that?
+
+[7:33] Can you believe that? This is this is how I was raised, Nastasia. This is why I am the way I am. Yeah, you're cheap. I am.
+
+[7:41] I'm cheap. When it comes to but he's like cheap when it comes to his own pleasure. I'll tell you this story. So for those of you that don't know, DRC is, I guess it stands for Domain del Romanay Conti, right? And so since, you know, since as long as I've been alive, they release a mixed case every year as a future, right?
+
+[8:02] So in that case, you get like, you know, uh the two top two ones are Riesborg and you know, actual Romanet Conti. You get like one each of those, right? And then you get like a couple of like the kind of the also great but kind of lower end ones, like Latas and Code Disney. No, wait, is that one of them? I don't know.
+
+[8:19] Anyway, whatever. I'm not an expert in this. Anyway, so it's a it's a mixed case. Now, my mom bought this as a future before it was released, which you you know, you can do. And at the time, you know, my stepfather thought it was an unconscionable amount of money.
+
+[8:35] I think it was like five hundred dollars or something like that, six hundred dollars. This ruined Christmas. Gerard, like, my he opened the thing. It was the thing of futures. I don't even think the wine was there.
+
+[8:47] It was because I don't think it had been delivered yet, or maybe it had just come. And he knew how much it cost because he follows all the auctions and whatnot. And he literally went upstairs and fell asleep because he thought she had spent too much money on this. Now bear in mind, a single bottle of the Roman A Collante, a single bottle is now worth $20,000 at auction at least, right? And this is a whole case of mixed stuff.
+
+[9:09] The mixed case must you just heard like that one of the bottles, one of the not even like it's like, you know, mid-top level bottle that he just ate, drank, is at like $4,000. And so, you know, that's the level of cheap you're dealing with in my family. We're that cheap. So. Anastasia, it's not like you're not cheap.
+
+[9:29] It's not for me. I'm cheap for myself. I'm generous with people. Yeah, so is he. Yeah.
+
+[9:37] Anything? Uh what do you think of our performance? Uh I thought it was good, but you didn't let me know like kind of what you were gonna play, so I had no, I had no way of knowing when to come in. Were you able to recognize it? It was pretty obscure.
+
+[9:52] But like I didn't know when you wanted me to like go in. Like you like, we we didn't have any sort of sharing of like a cue or something. Like no one, you know what I mean? So, like, that's why I had to come in on the on the mellow intro. It also was much more of a mellow intro-y thing, you know.
+
+[10:06] I think it's probably best that you talked over. That was our first time playing together in public, and I think Nastasia's first time playing in public since she was maybe eight years old. True. And it's well well, what'd you do when you were eight? Played it in public play piano in public.
+
+[10:20] Well, meaning in public, like at a recital, or like you know, where you were a showtime at the Apollo? Like, what are we talking about here? Recital, like a recital in like a church or whatever. She played in her mom's living room while her mom was blasting uh do wop music in the other music in the other room to cover it. Nice group.
+
+[10:35] Okay, so like the sp is that literally what your mom listens to? Doo-wop? I have a video of my mom listening to Oldie's radio while I'm playing the piano in the other room. Oldies is one thing, but is it like Motown or is it like doopp? It's a radio station.
+
+[10:50] You don't know what you listened to as a child? Oldies. It was oldies. It's what she still listens to now. Yeah.
+
+[10:57] And actually, when we came over to rehearse last night, uh, she uh loved having, she wanted to have the radio playing in the background while we played. And uh couldn't turn it off. It was comfortable. She is demented about this stuff, but I don't know if like I can't believe that oldies is still a term. I can't even believe that the word oldies is still like a valid musical term.
+
+[11:19] Well, it's relative, right? Well, yeah, right, which means it has no meaning. I don't know. Oldies, you mean like that? There's that amazing.
+
+[11:30] Oh, I got the the whole idea of oldies hip hop is a perversity. Like remember, it was called it was called oldies when hip hop hadn't come out yet. When there was no hip hop, there was oldies. At which point it was basically, and this is why I'm trying to ascertain, it was doo-wop Motown, right? And like, you know, the classic rock stuff, which is now in the old, like that was not on, that was on the classic rock station.
+
+[11:53] You never got like a Led Zeppelin on an oldie station because it that was classic rock, right? So that's why like calling it oldies in the 80s, right? 70s and 80s was when they started calling things oldies, 80s, I guess, right? Is perverse. Yeah, it's it's perverse.
+
+[12:09] Anyway, so by the way, fundamentally, I'm gonna get some people are gonna get mad. I cannot listen to more than five songs in a row. This it is a ridiculous era in music. When it's between that and listening to Nastasia play the piano, I think you might have a different opinion. Listen, listen, listen, listen.
+
+[12:29] What's the worst era of Billy Joel? All of it. Boom! Boo, hiss. Alright, poll cat.
+
+[12:39] We haven't talked about this before. What's the worst era of Billy Joel? Huh? That was for you. They didn't give him a mic.
+
+[12:46] Oh, I mean, I mean the walking in the night nonsense is the worst, but it's all pretty bad. First of all, where is all this anti? You know what? Stay in California. All of you.
+
+[12:57] Stay there. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Hating Billy Joel. Come on.
+
+[13:03] First of all, it's his do-wop stuff. It's like for the longest time, all that stuff. That stuff is like heart, like of his work, the worst because it's like all this weird doo-wopy stuff. What's the best? Can we take a question?
+
+[13:15] Sure. Okay. So we're all single and we're all preparing for a second quarantine. And Pat has a specific question about soups and love. Oh Jesus.
+
+[13:28] Okay. Well, we're just gonna go right there. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[13:32] Oh, first of all, linking soup and love, I can sense this is gonna go way, way south way fast, but go ahead. Yeah, I think she I think she misunderstood my text message from the out the other night. But um since we're talking about soups, uh I before the quarantine, before the whole COVID thing started, I was I got really into making stock and then using that and everything I cooked. And then when quarantine happened and it was evident that we were all gonna get sick and possibly die, uh I made a bomb ass chicken soup and froze it in case I got sick during the time to eat. Now I still have that because I haven't gotten sick because I haven't been out of my house and I haven't had any lovers uh to get me sick.
+
+[14:12] But uh I'm now since it's getting cold in LA, it's like 60 degrees today, so I got a hat on. Um freezing. I am thinking about making more soup because it's soup season. Um and so I really just wanted to sort of talk about that and talk about the process of stock making and then talk about the the basics of what are needed in a good soup. Like, how can I just raid my fridge and make a good soup?
+
+[14:38] What are the things that I can just do? Well, I mean, it totally depends on what's in your fridge. Well, what? He said that will also get him laid. Uh, yeah.
+
+[14:52] Dave's not good at that kind of stuff. I mean, you know, like I haven't I haven't had to impress somebody, you know, to on that score in long, long time. But um lookest time. Whoa. Yeah, we could do the whole thing.
+
+[15:08] Can you play it? Can you play longest time on saxophone? What? I don't think I can actually. We've got a lot of things going on here tech-wise.
+
+[15:19] Uh all right, listen. The secret is either like you make a lot of stock and have it chilling in your in your freezer, and it's gonna be good for the longest time, right? And so you can keep it there, and then having a good base is kind of uh the I think the start. So, like, you know, it's never probably gonna get is it ever cold enough in LA to do like a squash soup? Yeah, I did one on Saturday.
+
+[15:44] I meant for normal people. I repeat, it is 60 degrees here today, and I'm wearing a hat. Yeah, it's free. With ear flaps. You got the oh, you got the full Elmore FUD, it turns 60 degrees Fahrenheit and you go Elmer FUD on me.
+
+[15:56] Basically, listen, I have an Elmer Fud hat that my mom bought me like 25 years ago, like a real Philsen, like, you know, northern like outfitter with the full thing. And people like when it's cold out, I wear it and I pull the flaps down and then whoo, look at you, the hunter. I'm like, look at you, the cold idiot. You know what I mean? It's like those things work, those ear flaps.
+
+[16:13] They're good. With your 60. Uh, your head would ignite if you put this hat on your head. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[16:23] Wait, Jack, can you please? Jack has a great food story. He's been a little bit. I thought I was gonna do soup. We're doing soup.
+
+[16:30] Well, you didn't finish quick enough. That's right. All right, go. You want more soup information or you don't want more soup information? Please, sir, may I have another?
+
+[16:40] Make the stock. The easiest way to make a stock is uh is like to save scraps of whatever bones and whatnot you have uh from like cooking. You can save those in the freezer if you want, and then make all your stock in in in one batch. So like like uh the chick the bones that we have a lot, and I think honestly, and John, maybe you'll back me up on this. The most versatile stock to have around isn't what a restaurant would choose.
+
+[17:01] It's chicken stock because most of us at home go through more chicken than we go through uh like veal bones, for instance. And so having to go buy veal bones is a pain. Whereas like I think I would guess the average household go through goes through more chicken. What do you think, John? Yeah, I agree.
+
+[17:17] And chick chicken stock works very well in pork-based things. So what when I like I you know I use chicken stock in my house for almost everything. It works well for for many, many uh many, many things. And I don't do uh a fully I sometimes do a fully brown chicken stock, but I don't even necessarily bother. I do kind of like a a a blonde or or a light uh chicken stock just because it's faster in the pressure cooker.
+
+[17:42] So Pat, do you have a pressure cooker and or instapot? Uh I do not know, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on uh light v dark stock because I've never heard it talked about in that way. So, you know, it it all depends on the amount of pre-roasting of the uh veg and meat that you do. Um so you know, traditional, like a darker stock, sometimes like the old Frenchies will actually kind of almost burn an onion to get it to get it darker and then roast off all of the bones and then make your um you know, have that roasted stuff be the base of the stock, and that gives you just a little those kind of brown umami kind of um you know flavors that we kind of all enjoy. And most of the time the only reason that they don't is because the the same reason we'll get to it hopefully later, you know, uh the French use white pepper because they don't want to see the little black flecks.
+
+[18:34] In cases where they want it to be blonde because they want a lighter flavor, unbrown flavor, uh they use kind of a blonder, um like a blonder stock. And in my opinion, um most, if not all people, most of the time in most applications would prefer to have uh a darker stock to a lighter stock when it's being used as a base in a soup. John, you back me on this or you don't. I do vacuum. I would also like to chime in.
+
+[18:59] I I'm a big fan of using chicken feed in my stock as well. Nice and you know, low cost and also have a lot of gelatin a lot more body to the soup in the end. Uh I'm um yeah, I'm a big fan of uh anything that adds uh anything that adds body, right? So like uh uh here's a secret that I do, that's not a super laid secret, but if uh Dax, my the my f the thing that I make that Dax likes the most is his stuff that we call pork chili here. And so we uh we pressure cook like that.
+
+[19:27] We we chop up, but I I rip the skin off of uh of the uh pork shoulder hole, I throw it into the pressure cooker and it you know gelatinizes into the into the stock and whatnot, and then I pull it out and I literally blend the entire skin chunk into the sauce to make a super high, high gelatinous, like really, really uncuous uh base. Anyway, a little tip for you if you want it. But um, so that's when you're making stock, but honestly, also like and you know, don't get all bent, but have a crap ton of decent flavored bullion cubes around because it is uh you know, if if you're showing up and you know, all of a sudden you decide to you know see a human being in person again and they show up and you don't have anything, a decent bullion cube can like take something that would otherwise have no discernible kind of umami or flavor and pop it a lot harder than you would uh think. And if you get a decent brand and you don't use it kind of in excess, they um you know, no one uh as uh fake Christopher Walkins said in SNL, no one will know, you know what I mean, but they'll just know that the stuff is uh is better. The one thing I'll say is that should you ever use bullion cubes, this is the one time salt is a big thing with stocks, right?
+
+[20:53] So the reason people don't uh salt stocks is because you don't know how much reduction is gonna take place and you don't know what you're gonna put it in. This is why in restaurants you don't salt stocks. Uh similarly, if you are going to use uh a bullion cube in a braise or in a soup, right, you should not salt it as early in the process as you would otherwise because until you become like acutely aware of the salt level in bullion cubes, it can throw you way off. Anyone else have this experience? Yeah.
+
+[21:27] Yeah. So uh, but I'm not a hater on the bullion cube, but again, I keep chicken bullion cubes around because again, I find that of all of them, they are the most uh versatile. I haven't tried um, you know, I haven't had too much luck with straight veg stock. Um I know people have worked on the veg stock. I would go on the internet and and I probably should for the book try to get like a really decent uh veg-based stock.
+
+[21:53] Um, but even when I'm doing like a high umami um fungus or plant-based, like a like a like a porcini or any kind of like a mut. I made a delicious mushroom gravy over it. By the way, this week I made stuffed cabbage, delicious, delicious. You want a cold weather treat? Stuffed cabbage.
+
+[22:11] Like John and I went to this place called the Ridgewood Pork Store, and they used to make their own whole pickled heads of cabbage, and we asked for it, and they're like, I don't make that no more. It's too much of a pain in the butt. But they do sell whole pickled cabbage leaves, and I and I pulled out my cuisine of Hungary by uh what's his name? Something lang, which is kind of the you know, one of the Hungarian Bibles, and I made his like kind of very paprika-heavy um with the paprika gravy over the top, so it's like stuffed cabbage with cabbage in the sauce and tomatoes on point, on point. But even in a and I don't know why I brought that up because it's not that, but in a gravy like that, I'll use chicken base anywhere.
+
+[22:50] That's my feeling. Okay, so Jack has a has a story, a food-related story, food and love related story that Stuzz wants me to tell. That I want him to tell. This isn't much of a story. It's just, I guess he's a little bit more.
+
+[23:05] She loves it. What would you do, listener? Um, you know, I met somebody that I had some nice times with, let's say. And um she came over and was like, oh, I brought wine, and it was just some cheap Merlot. And I was like, oh.
+
+[23:21] You know, like, do I drink that? I'd really like Family Show, Jack. Remember, family show. This one won't be a good one. I'm sorry.
+
+[23:28] Hey kids, go watch a movie. No, I won't use any swear words. I'm sorry. Um so that was the first frustration, and then I was like, well, maybe we can cook something together, and then she's like, what can I do to help? I was like, yeah, you know, slice the garlic or something.
+
+[23:43] She was like, she didn't know how to peel garlic. Yeah. No matter how much of a good time you're having, you great taste in film, all this other stuff, but like, can you really move forward? He's crapping. Uh yeah.
+
+[23:56] I I think you can. Well, Aaron's like, you can move forward at least that day. I mean, you never have to see her again, am I right? Wine was drunk and the garlic was peeled. Yes.
+
+[24:04] What is wrong with you? He's like, he's like the the meal's already like it's a sunk cost. You might as well, you know, you might as well go for the dessert. That's what uh polk. I'm not seeing very poor.
+
+[24:15] I'm sorry, maybe I asked this incorrectly. Do you continue to see this person? Uh now now, Aaron, now what do you say? I want her to choose the films. What does it matter with this?
+
+[24:25] All right, listen. This is a question to people who are here right now. Of true or false, of all low price wines, Merlot is the worst. Thank you. Like, right?
+
+[24:38] Yes. Like, like Merlot. I mean, I like Merlot, but like of the cheap things, cheap Merlot is the worst, right? Yes. Aaron is is like, yeah, incensed.
+
+[24:51] Aaron is incensed. Why? He loves cheap Merlot? What? That's not that's not about the cheap Merlot, man.
+
+[24:58] Wait, am I are you on record, Aaron, saying that you think that the cheap Merlot is like the best call of all the cheap wine varieties? Uh no, I just don't think it's the issue in this situation. Oh. Our eye is not on the prizes. If I drink it, I will.
+
+[25:17] Do you have a five dollar glass of barefoot Merlot in your in your hand right now in a goblet? I don't know. So what are you incensed about? Also, the garlic thing. Here's the thing.
+
+[25:32] You don't want to be that guy who's like, no, actually, you should hit it with the with the blade. You know what I mean? Like, even my you know, sons don't like me telling them how to do stuff like that, even though I I am right. You know what I mean? But you know, you can't you can't you can't tell them.
+
+[25:48] No, I just did it. It was like, oh, don't worry about it, I got it, you know. Oh. There we go. All right.
+
+[25:52] But this has gone in the direction that should have gone. Yeah. No, but the night was fine, everybody. Did they notice born of my complaining to Stas later? Did the person notice and was like, you had to correct my garlic chopping?
+
+[26:05] Of course, not. I noticed you didn't enjoy the wine. No, I'm gonna jump. Of course I drank the Merlot and But the question is, does he continue with this person? I mean, you know, Pat, who's right there, no offense.
+
+[26:17] But Nastasia has gone uh friends with people for many decades who bring less than ideal wines to uh people's houses. Yeah, one of them is sitting right here. That's what I said. No offense to Pat. And when I say no offense, what that means is here comes something offensive to you.
+
+[26:29] I don't know if you know how that works. Is it rude to I was thinking this because I just moved into my place, so she was it was kind of like, oh, housewarming and some wine for us. Would it have been rude to been like, oh, that's awesome. But let's drink something else tonight and then put it on. Yeah, you can't do that.
+
+[26:48] Can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. Wait, what Aaron, what'd you say? If I had something open already, that would have been the hack.
+
+[26:58] You put what? Because you're like, oh, this is open already. Let's finish this first. You have to drink it. You have to drink it.
+
+[27:03] You have to drink it. You have to drink it. So then what your goal is is over time is to like, you know, if you want to continue seeing the person, just you know, move them on up the scale a little bit. You know what I mean? What does that mean?
+
+[27:17] Of wine. Move them up the scale. Yeah, go to their house and you bring a bottle of wine. And then hopefully they're like, oh, that's that already. That's why I was a little confused.
+
+[27:24] I brought over a wine. I talked about the wine I like. It was a nice orange. Wait, what is Aaron? Stas, you gotta get closer to the mic.
+
+[27:36] I can't hear you. Close as possible. Sorry, that was a garbage truck. I know from garbage trucks for sure. I know from garbage trucks.
+
+[27:46] Wait, so Aaron, why did that make you mad? Why the fact that he'd already been to her house with a with a bottle of wine and I think it's the talking about the wine and the thing. I feel like there's a time or the place. I don't want to shame you, Jack. Oh no, please.
+
+[28:00] I'm I'm here for you. We don't even know what he said. He could have shown up and be like, hey, I got this bottle of wine, I really like it. Not even. I didn't want to talk about the wine.
+
+[28:07] I just brought wine and she was like, oh, this is great. And then I'm like, oh, this is what it is. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not a wine splainer by any stretch. I mean, listen, I think that like if over the pattern of a few dates, you discover that like you're just a universe apart on everything.
+
+[28:24] That's one thing. But you know, you gotta meet in the middle here. Yeah. I think that's true, but you know, we're in a time of plague, and we have to have uh somewhat higher standards now in terms of getting to know people. Time is money, people.
+
+[28:39] You know, it takes it takes a lot longer to get to know somebody and to get to the point of you know being in the same room and wanting to uh make out with each other, at least for for me. So your standards are higher? Once they're in the room, your standards should be zero. My standards were pretty robust. But I think I think seeing context clues like that that it's not gonna work is uh is a thing.
+
+[29:00] You know, the the person that I got closest to in the last six months, we actually were, you know, he was coming over and we were having dinner. I had cooked for him once, and then he was very excited he wanted to cook for me, and I was excited to to try this, and then he came over to cook and was like reading recipes off of uh of websites and clearly had never done it before, and I just kind of lost all attraction because what? Damn the guy is trying to cook something for now. That's not cool, dude. Aaron, are you incensed over there?
+
+[29:32] I mean, like a guy trying to come over to cook for you who doesn't cook, I mean, that's nice. Yeah, I'm gonna decide with Aaron on this one. That's rough, man. I read recipes when I cook. I read recipes sometimes when I cook, but I think it was that he was so excited to cook, it was the exact same thing that I had cooked for him.
+
+[29:50] Uh, and he had clearly never done it before. So he can by the way, it was hard boiled eggs and stopped short of saying, here, let me show you how to peel that garlic. Wow. Damn. So for those of you that want to go out with Pat Posey, men.
+
+[29:59] This is what you have to deal with. Be clear, it's men. I'm getting this episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash.
+
+[30:24] We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Because here's the thing less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away.
+
+[30:42] It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system, from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal, food gone good. Learn more at appeal.com.
+
+[31:02] Whoa, wait, wait. I have a question though. What the what is the best like uh varietal wine to cheap out on? Which one are you most likely if you buy a really cheap bottle of are you most likely to sort of ruin their kava. Oh inexpensive kavas are pretty good.
+
+[31:19] If you're gonna go inexpensive bubbly, I would go kava over real inexpensive. I go kava over prosecco. Agree or disagree, people. I agree. Yeah.
+
+[31:28] Yeah. I'd also like to say, Dave, that I blame you entirely for this uh for having me brainwashed through the school of enemy of quality think. You know, that's that's how you end up in your mid thirties getting upset about a cheap bottle of Merlot. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, come on.
+
+[31:42] I think I think Aaron's got a good point with the with the Gruner. There's some decent uh deals on Gruner. And hey, pro tip, a lot of those mothers come in liter bottles. Am I right, Aaron? Hey, yeah.
+
+[31:51] Uh yes, which is 20% more fun. It's like first I said $10. No, it's a leader, it's a leader. That's why it's $1250. Okay, okay, okay.
+
+[32:04] You know what I mean? Like that kind of a situation? Yeah, yeah. Gorin on the chat asks if Kava can work okay in cocktails that call for champagne as well. Yeah.
+
+[32:14] I mean, it's not going to be champagne. It's not going to make Nastasia happy. But uh, yeah. I mean, like, I think most, like, it depends on what you mean. Like, if if you're talking like a classic champagne cocktail, which is just like a sugar cube with some ango in the in the champagne, then you're gonna notice, right?
+
+[32:31] But once you've like, you know, mimosified or balineated like whatever you're doing, you know, I don't think it's gonna matter much. What do you think, Polkett? I think that uh in most cases it won't matter, but the risk you run. I think that most of those recipes are written for sweet champagnes, right? Like we're talking from the 30s.
+
+[32:51] So you want to make sure that you're not adding some super nerdy dry wine that'll like throw the balance into the two acidic categories. There you go. Uh all right. Aaron Melvin. He agreed with me.
+
+[33:10] He said it doesn't matter. He just said it doesn't matter, but that we're all wrong for using dry wines. How's that a disagreement? Right. Whatever.
+
+[33:18] Alright. Say it again so that I understand where our disagreement lies. No, I just felt, you know, it just it wasn't acknowledged. I think it's more than that for me. I hear you, and you are acknowledged.
+
+[33:32] It's like 9 30 here. Yeah. All right. Okay. Nastasia's up at like 6 a.m.
+
+[33:37] anyway. You want to know how to get Nastasia up? Send her a random text at zero in the morning. She has her phone set to like like immense alert, because she's always afraid that somebody in her family is gonna like tell her that something terrible is. What he texted you at zero in the morning?
+
+[33:54] No, he just set up this thing where only my mom and dad can get through. You maybe I don't know. By the way, like I told Nastasia this like last week. I was like, you need to fix that. And Aaron fixed it.
+
+[34:09] I'm glad because she's like, but what if something happens? I was like, if I am dead, you don't need to know until tomorrow at night. What? That's what I said. I was like, if they're dead, they're dead.
+
+[34:21] Yeah, what are you gonna do about it? Like, you're already like five hours. Like, what is it like on if you were already on a plane, it would already be five hours before you landed, and then another five hours to get from the airport to wherever like something is happening in New York. So it's not like you it's not like there's anything that could happen in New York. It's not like I'm gonna text you and saying, oh, oh, there's a volcanic eruption that's traveling across the entire country, and you have time to get on a boat now and go into the Pacific.
+
+[34:47] It's not gonna happen. You have no need to hear from me other than during when you want to. Aaron, I'm right about this, right? Yes. Anyway.
+
+[34:55] Anyway. All right. I'm gonna say what Aaron Melvin said. So last week, uh I was hating on White Pepper, and I forget who co-signed. I think John.
+
+[35:03] John, did you co-sign on the on the white pepper hate? No. No? Alright. No one co-signed.
+
+[35:07] But anyway. Why? I don't know. I just say I like it that it's a I don't know. I don't to me it doesn't taste like dirty or anything like that.
+
+[35:15] I think it's just another interesting dimension of pepperiness to have on uh yeah, in a dish. Full disclosure, you speak French. Yeah. Uh for those of you that know the French or the White Pepper Freaks. Anyway, Aaron Melvin writes in, I too intensely dislike white pepper until I had the one from uh botryfarm.co.uk.
+
+[35:38] Uh now it's entirely worth having. I'd be pleased to send each of you some if you'd like to try. Thanks for the show. Uh best regards uh Aaron. Yeah, I want to try some uh some decent white pepper.
+
+[35:47] Are we all included in that? Are we included in that? Well, I'm sure the we that is Nastasia is included, and then she can parse it out to you guys. I mean, I I I can't see I can't say whether he's promised to send it to like, you know, anyone that we what if we what if we had uh you know Manheim's Steamroller on today? Would he have sent one to every member of Manheim's Steamroller?
+
+[36:07] Yes, I've had calling you Manheim Steamroller. Yeah. Um yeah. What do they do now? Do they they just do Christmas albums now?
+
+[36:13] What the heck is the deal with Manheim's team? I think they just do Christmas tours. They tour around and play it Christmas. Well, I don't think they're touring this year though, right? Except for this year, yeah.
+
+[36:22] But is that all they ever did, or did they used to play stuff that wasn't Christmas stuff? They did stuff that was not Christmas stuff too. All right. What is your least favorite style of like your least favorite you use for saxophone? Do you like you like you like your least favorite?
+
+[36:38] Oh, put it this way. Like Kenny G, can you listen to it? No. Okay. Uh what about like uh you but you like big band stuff and you like l most jazz saxophone, right?
+
+[36:51] Sure, sure. I mean, like, you know, the like the old school big band stuff like the Glenn Miller, the the Stan Kenton, uh Thad Jones Mel Lou, or Mel Lewis orchestra, like all that, all like the classic big band stuff and the progressive big band stuff is really great. Um but like once it gets into Kenny G, like the it's you know, it's not it's not bad, it's not terrible. I don't hate it as much as many saxophones do, I think. Uh but it is it is a little light and it's a little simplistic and it's uh and it's a little annoying because we hear it so many times, but part of that is also just jealousy because you know that dude made some money on it.
+
+[37:24] It's like the Fleetwood Mac of saxophones. But it's basically that I mean they actually they use Kenny G in in a bunch of kinds, like in China, they use Kenny G to close down shopping malls and shops. There's an actual Kenny G song that is known to be the signal for we about to close get your ass out. Wow. Before I ask Aaron about his Fleetwood Mac hatred, what do you then do you like kind of like loud cacophonous like Ornette Coleman kind of saxophone?
+
+[37:53] I do, yeah, I love that stuff. And like if you don't know uh like Anthony Braxton, uh is then another, you know, going into the third stream jazz land and the kind of stuff that's really out. And then Colin Stetson is someone that I'm really uh digging on these days. Aaron, explain yourself with your Fleetwood Mac. First of all, Aaron, tell er tell everyone what shirt you're wearing.
+
+[38:14] Well, your shirt says. Can I say it on Family Friendly Show? Kids go watch something. Uh Stas, what do you gotta do? This what is it?
+
+[38:21] I just like Wait, Jack, why don't you read it? Because I can't read my shirt. Oh, you got a mouthful of bait. You guys are the worst. Listening to Fleetwood Mac and doing blue doesn't make you a witch.
+
+[38:36] And I walk around in this shirt, and some people think it's really funny. The ones who get it, the Fleetwood Mac is sacching garbage. It's the white claw of rock and roll. It's the what? White claw.
+
+[38:44] White claw rock and roll. That makes Kenny G the true. White claw the the seltzer. Now we're gonna remember Aaron Polcat Polski is trying to push his canned cocktails and so wishes that you wouldn't buy white claw. First of all, the worst term in the world is what what do they call that crap?
+
+[39:03] Hard seltzer? Uh yeah. Yeah, hard seltzer. It's that's that's the category that falls under it. Yeah.
+
+[39:11] Oh, also everyone should go read uh the Smithsonian article about the history of canned cocktails. Aaron Polski is even mentioned in said article. Oh, Polcast. That's why we AR assistant John. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:26] Uh by the way, uh John and I were uh in a vehicle moving a bunch of uh stuff from the uh no longer existing conditions up to storage in uh Connecticut, and uh we I think came to an agreement that the best flavor of seltzer is seltzer flavored seltzer. Yeah, Dave there was no plain flavor, you know, no unflavored seltzer there, so Dave had to cave in and get one of the flavored ones. And what'd you get, Dave? Was it orange or citrus or something like that? It was disgusting.
+
+[39:58] Poisonous, poisonous. I want my seltzer with a twist of seltzer in it. That's what I want. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need any flavors.
+
+[40:06] I just need some ripping bubbles, and I need it. Has okay. Has anyone had a flavored seltzer that the last sip of that seltzer was even like vaguely enjoyable? Raspberry. Grapefruit.
+
+[40:19] Yeah, I was gonna say Raspberry is the only one that could possibly work. To me, they're all they're all poisonous. Um speaking of, uh can you believe in one week we lost Alex Trebek and Sean Connery? Yeah, I was thinking about that. I was like looking at the SNL because Stas, of course, loves SNL more than she loves anything else pretty much.
+
+[40:43] And so while I was doing that, uh after it came in, uh I was there was looking at all the old kind of Will Farrell and uh you know Hammond uh things where one's Connery and one's Trebek, and then they actually had Alex Trubeck show up on one, but man, that's end of an era, huh? Um terrible. Um Curtis Barner wrote in uh hey, do you have any good sources on sizing a kitchen hood properly? I'm buying my first house and want to put something in where I can sear the bejesus out of a steak and not have smoke alarms uh go off. However, it would be nice if it didn't sound like a jet engine was taking off every time I needed a little ventilation.
+
+[41:20] All right, Curtis, here's the problem. Uh if you call it a hood, right, then certain regulations uh take place, right? In terms of like fire suppression and and whatnot. Um I don't know that there's a good answer. If you go on um a lot of restaurant supply websites, they'll have uh hood size calculators.
+
+[41:44] Um the reason that your hood is so loud, the the hoods that you're used to, the home hoods, which I hate, which I've never seen one that's any good, the reason they're so loud is because the fan is in the room with you first. That's the first mistake. Why would you have the fan in the room with you? It should be on the outside of your house or on the roof. Uh the other problem is is that because the fan is in the hood, it's small.
+
+[42:09] And so to get any sort of airflow with a small fan, it needs to spin at a much higher velocity. And the faster a fan spins, the more high-pitched screaming noise the fan's gonna make. So you have a higher pitched, more irritating, louder fan placed closer to you as a result of the way that home hoods are made. I have never tested it, but there are some home-rated hoods, right? So that are good for fire code where you are that have external fans mounted on them.
+
+[42:41] They're still nowhere near powerful enough, in my opinion, but they are a hell of a lot better than having the fan in the room with you. And anything you can do to have the fan be both bigger so that it can run slower, uh, even at the same amount of CFMs, uh, and then putting it uh, you know, on the outside of your house uh or far away, or at least you know, sound wrapping it and having it not be in the uh, you know, i in the hood is gonna be a win. What people are worried about is that if you don't clean your hood, in a word, you know, for good reason, but especially in a restaurant environment, if you don't clean a hood, uh you can get a lot of grease up in the hood, uh, and then that can catch fire, and you know, you know, you you can look it up. There's like you'll see giant plumes of flame coming out of the um coming out of the vents. And so um the commercial, the commercial vents are designed to withstand that, and the rules about them are designed to withstand and or prevent that kind of uh thing from happening.
+
+[43:46] The odds of that happening in a house are very low because the odds that you're gonna do enough frying to like coat the inside of your of your uh hood vent with oil and then ignite it are relatively low uh but because in a home kitchen you also don't have fire suppression so they have no way to guarantee it so typically they're not allowed at as as hoods um so that's kind of kind of where that where that is was that helpful at all guys or no yep um I've never seen a hood fire you ever seen a hood fire John has anyone here ever seen a hood fire nope I'm sure it sucks real bad though um Tata came in via Instagram Dave what do you think about reheating hot cocktails say they're poked or pan made in advance and then reheated later is it doable what should be avoided easy shayad the uh acid or final slug of booze later at serving time serving in batches slightly inconvenient circumstances um I mean we used to do it like so you would you know you pre-poke as they say and then put them into uh those vacuum containers with the push top you know those coffee what are those things called guys you know I'm talking about the vacuum pots yeah yeah yeah those things are good for hot drinks uh they can hold stuff for a long time pro tip uh pour boiling water into the into it first and uh like kind of roll it around be careful because remember when you put boiling water into something and then shake it when there's air it'll pressurize right this is why you have to be careful when you shake if you're gonna shake something hot or do you know like this is why blenders are a problem right when you put hot stuff in a blender and then you seal it and hit go the it it blows up and it that I've seen people do. I've seen people get pretty badly burnt with that. So be careful when you do that, but preheat the the vacuum pot first and dump it out. Another good way to do it is to uh get a pot, make sure it's covered, put it on an induction, um, you know, a low medium heat. Um, and you should be fine.
+
+[45:44] And even reheating it, I think should be fine because uh, you know, most all the one thing you have to be worried about is that you're gonna lose um you're gonna lose some alcohol because it evaporates uh relatively quickly. Now you want hot drinks to be relatively low in alcohol anyway, because it's unpleasant on the nose to have them be high in alcohol, but you might want to sit there and after a couple of hours hit it with a little hit it with a little dabble booze just to keep it at the same level. You know what I'm saying? What do you think? Bullcat, what do you think?
+
+[46:10] You're a bartender. Yeah, so one of the things that I found to be successful in batching uh hot drinks uh is to, and I think a lot of the listeners of this show probably already have an emergent circulator, but set it to a temperature where the drink is pleasantly hot but well below the boiling point of alcohol, so like a good 155 Fahrenheit, and you can batch it in a bottle, keep it in the water bath, and then you know, grab it with a dry towel or a silicone um grip, and you can just pour it. And that's uh that's a pretty good way to um to you know keep it hot and and serve it to your guests like on demand. What do you say? Hot but pleasant, is that your uh Tinder profile?
+
+[46:50] Yeah, uh not on Tinder. I'm not on Tinder, I don't like it. Uh Tinder's bad. Very bad. I'm not a fan.
+
+[47:00] We can get one. So are you on some like equivalent swipe right, swipe left situation? I don't know what the kids are doing these days. So I recently rejoined this app called Raya. And he got me on that I got.
+
+[47:16] Um and I I mean, whatever. They all kind of suck, but this one's like a little bit better than the others. Slightly. But it's still a swipe left, swipe, right sitch. Basically.
+
+[47:27] Well, on this one, you get to have um like a song, like a theme song to a slideshow of photos. So that's kind of fun. You get to choose a song that goes with the photos that you show people. Your own song. So like they hear the song that you chose.
+
+[47:43] It's not like they listened, they're not listening to like Exhumer while they're looking at your thing. It's whatever you choose. It's whatever you choose, which is good because as soon as you have somebody whose slideshow has Fleetwood Mac's dreams, listen, listen. Like, first of all, I'm glad that guy got his car fixed. First of all, let me just say, I'm glad that guy got his car fixed.
+
+[48:05] And second of all, you're just hating on it because it like it popped because of the guy on the skateboard with his ocean spray. I'm happy for the ocean spray corporation. I want them to sell cranberries like the end of the freaking world is coming. I'm sure they're getting taking a hit this year. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:17] Why are you hating on them just because did you not like them before? You know, the landslide brought me down, all that stuff. You really don't like Fleetwood Mac. Since I since I heard their first song, I was like, this is awful. What?
+
+[48:28] Yeah. Nastasia, I can't believe you're not coming to their defense. What? I can't believe you're not coming to Fleetwood Mac's defense. No, he knows I like them, but I actually like them.
+
+[48:37] I'm not one of those girls that wears the flower crowns and all that other. I feel like the deeper you go into the case. That's a thing. That's a thing? Yes, Dave.
+
+[48:47] So we're accepting cheap Merlot, but but not Fleetwood Mac over here. Yeah, there are some deal breakers. See, I'm alright with the a little bit of Fleetwood Mac. Not the cheap Merleau. But not the Facet Mac.
+
+[48:59] Oh, Dave, we're supposed to tell you what we're eating, but thanks to Heritage. They don't know it yet. Um, we got Maury's bagels, which are really, really, really good. Do you know the history, Jack or Aaron or Pat? Do I know the history?
+
+[49:11] History of Maurys, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it was this guy, uh Jason, he is from New York. He worked at uh either Jelena or Justa and was like the bagels out here are terrible. I need to do something about it.
+
+[49:22] So he started making really amazing bagels and selling them at the Hollywood farmers market for about two years, and then he finally opened up a brick and mortar, which is basically a well, I don't want to give away where you're very close to here, uh as it happens. Uh and it's delicious. It's really good. It's hard to find good bagels out here, man. So, like, like we're we were closer to an H and H, closer to an Essa, closer to an absolute, closer to a Columbia, closer to the Cosar.
+
+[49:54] What about like what style of bagel? Closer to one of those Montreal things? Like what are we talking here? It's kind of like uh like Tomkin Square bagel, but a little smaller. Yes.
+
+[50:02] They have spot on. That was never my neighborhood, so I never mean like even actually it is my neighbor, but I and that's not that I've never been there. I've never been there. Should I go if you like that bagel? Tomkin Square is my favorite one in New York.
+
+[50:14] Really? Yeah. Huh. Um, okay, Dave. So everybody here needs to go soon, so they all want to promote what they came on to promote.
+
+[50:21] So can we do that? If you must. Who wants to go first? Pat go. All right.
+
+[50:32] Well, I'm promoting a new video featuring Nastasia that uh we made of Take Five, which you heard earlier tonight. Uh it's it's whimsical, and we're gonna be able to do it. Phil Bravo's also in it, as well as girlfriend uh Rachel Prascoda. Say it right, stuff. You say it, Dave.
+
+[50:49] You say it. Come on, just do it. Phil Bravo. Anyway, after that, I got a new album coming out uh in about a month's time, and so uh, you know, follow the video. With Nastasia or or not?
+
+[51:02] No. No. But Pat and I have a band, and then Aaron and I have joined a band. Joined a band or made a band? Made a band.
+
+[51:09] Nastasia's thing. Okay. Having a band with everybody now. Yes. But she only wants to play covers.
+
+[51:15] So weird. Yeah. It's a good way to start. Feel everybody out. Yeah.
+
+[51:20] Okay. Um. All right. All right, Aaron, you're next. Uh Livewire, cocktails by the World's Top Bartenders.
+
+[51:30] Just won two silver medals and the bronze medal at the LA Spirits Awards, which we're very excited about. Uh find them at a so they're can cocktails by bartenders that you uh have read about, most likely. So now you can buy their drinks, or you soon will be able to. We're expanding our roster uh very rapidly next year. So was this was this uh the like an RTD, which stands for ready to drink, by the way.
+
+[51:57] Was this an RTD category? We won I mean we got those medals in that category, yes. I didn't know that they so how long have they had that category? Sorry, there's uh helicopter truck driving by. What was that?
+
+[52:10] Well, I want a helicopter truck for real. Um I said like how long have they had that category? They had is that like relatively new, like past like three, four years? This was the inaugural year of the awards. So oh, nice.
+
+[52:21] So, like, you know, that's nice. You're there at the ground floor and you're like winning medals like at the ground floor. Who do we need to knock off? Who got the who got the gold? Who do we need to like and they haven't even released it?
+
+[52:31] Oh, that's not cool. It's not cool. I don't feel okay about it. I don't like it. I'm not for that.
+
+[52:39] I mean, I have to say uh I'm very grateful that we got the award, and I'm very happy about it. You know, but let me say something about the dogfish head. Like uh, you know, like they have those interesting um for the so for the Museum of Food and Drink people who are interested in this, like Dogfish Head has that uh collaboration that they do with the with the person whose name I forget who researches and looks at the chemical, looks at the at the leftovers in like thousands of year old vessels and tries to figure out what people was drinking back in the day. Hint it wasn't cheap merlot, and then try to recreate with Dogfish Head the uh you know some of these ancient brews, some of which taste good and some of which taste terrible. Um but uh so let me ask you this.
+
+[53:21] I'm assuming that you still on the Dogfish Head, when I first heard of them, which was like, you know, I don't know, eight billion years ago, they were doing they were kind of part of the wave of like kind of giant, giant, giant. I'm not telling anyone who listens to this anything they don't know, giant uh IPAs. Now, do you guys still like giant IPAs or no? No. I know we'll drink whatever if it fits the occasion.
+
+[53:48] Yeah. I always thought their 60 was better than their 120, right? The 120 was a bridge too far from me. But the 60 I thought was nice. No?
+
+[53:56] If a girl brings it over, I'll drink it. Uh but you'll crush up garlic and put it into it. Yeah, yeah. Wait, Pat, what's the name of this album you're putting out? Uh it's called La Marteau Sol's Matra.
+
+[54:11] Wait. The what without master? What's more what? John can say it better. John, say it.
+
+[54:17] Well, yeah, I'm having a hard time distinguishing the first word, too. Marteau? Marteau sans met. Hammer without uh without a master. That's right.
+
+[54:26] There we go. The hand so wait, so is this about Nastasia? Inspired by nostalgia. Nice. All right.
+
+[54:36] Uh all right. Let me rip through this real quick for you. Oh, nice. All right. Oh yeah.
+
+[54:41] Molecules. So if if you feel like things are moving too fast and you need to take it down a notch, you can buy my new line of move it slow merlot. Six dollars and ninety cents a bottle. And uh you can find that on Jackinsley.com. How much the case, Jack?
+
+[54:59] What do I get on a case break? $69 a case. Oh man, that's a good deal. Yes. Um Jackinsley.com.
+
+[55:08] Uh yeah. I'm I'm here in LA. Uh I'm, you know, riding out the COVID wave and available to uh produce your podcasts, listeners. If you have any podcasts you want to get off the ground, holler at me. So what are what are some podcasts things?
+
+[55:26] Wait, are you not gonna see this person again? All right. All right, all right. Now, uh by the way, do you have any sort of like are there any sort of boundaries like podcasts that you that you won't that you won't do? She likes people shouldn't pitch that you're necessarily involved with?
+
+[55:44] No, I'm I'm open. Collection recount podcasts, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll pr I'll produce it. I just might not produce it the way you want me to. No.
+
+[55:53] I'll I'll edit those. Would you do Alex Jones? Oh my god. He's very entertaining, but no, I wouldn't. What's your price?
+
+[56:01] How much money would you have to offer you? Is my name on it? Yeah. That's a tough one, man. That's a tough one.
+
+[56:09] You're just an engineer. You're just following orders. Uh oh, come on, dude. That speaking of bridge too far. Listen, I have something we can discuss on the on the on the on the way out here because I feel that you guys might have some opinions.
+
+[56:23] This is from Devin Patellin. How's it going? Has everyone voted? Do you have your escape boats packed and your bunkers prepped? I do, in fact.
+
+[56:31] I have a lot of freeze-dry, I have like five days of freeze-dried food here that don't require any preparation just in case the S hits the F uh and the transition doesn't go as planned. You guys do any you guys have any prep? Did you do any prep? I have I have uh I have 10 days of of uh water in uh jerry cans over here. What do you do?
+
+[56:51] Are you dead? That didn't sound good. Oh my god. What'd you do? Stepping out to make a call and just hit his head on the top of this garage door.
+
+[57:01] He is a tall man. All right. Uh so uh did you guys do any prepping in advance in case is in case it got really bad? Uh I'm in an Airbnb. So?
+
+[57:12] We're in California. We're gonna be fine. A lot of fruit and vegetables. I have a lot of I have a lot of freeze-dried food though as well. In case I need it.
+
+[57:20] Uh freeze-dried food is good for 30 years now. The good stuff. Buy the good stuff, it's worth it because it's good for 30 years. Anyway, so uh Devin has a question about pizza that we can discuss. And so this is where I think he's gonna go off the rails for a lot of you.
+
+[57:33] He says, specifically the best part of pizza, the sauce. And then says something maybe even more controversial, says, well, maybe not the best. Cheese is the best, but cheese is easier uh than Valentine's Day at a singles bar, which is that easy? I've never I've never had good luck. That's not true.
+
+[57:47] I had one good luck on Valentine's Day, and I married her. Anyway, uh, but sauce is a secret layer that I think elevates a pizza from being tossed by a troll to that of a disc of heaven spun down from the gods. Specifically the key ingredient from making that sauce pop, and I think it's blended calamata olives in the sauce, and maybe uh some ajou of mushroom as well, a veritable jeune sequois of mushroom deliciousness. So I ask, why do all recipes online suck? And uh, what is the best pizza sauce recipe?
+
+[58:13] Uh side note, Devin enjoys Hawaiian pizza, thinks it's delicious. So, what do you guys, first of all, what do you think about Hawaiian pizza? I'm I'm fine with it. And I've never I don't order it, but I'm fine with it. If I I will eat it.
+
+[58:22] Yeah, I like it. Hawaiian pizza is one of these back to dating. It's one of these weird things on dating apps that people really like to proclaim that they love or hate. I don't know why it's such a thing on dating apps, but it is. On dating apps?
+
+[58:37] Like literally, they're like, they're like, don't swipe right if you like Hawaiian pizza, or I unapologetically love Hawaiian pizza. I think that the fact that we're breaking that up tells me everything I need to know. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. Which one's right?
+
+[58:50] Right is yes or right is no. Either it is not to put it on a dating app profile. Yeah, exactly. If it appears on your profile, it's a no. No, but I mean swiping swiping which direction is the is the way to say that you would like to move further in this direction.
+
+[59:04] What's that? Right? Swiping right means you like them, right? Yes. Yeah, all right.
+
+[59:08] All right. Uh so uh first of all, uh Devin, you we can we're all allowed to have our own opinions, but if you're dealing with serious, serious pizza heads, the only thing that they will accept you saying is that the dough is the most important thing. Yeah, right? I mean, like that's what serious pizza nerds are gonna do to you. They're gonna say that the dough is the most important thing, and that everything else is just window dressing in the same way that you know, Don used to, you know, my you know, partner, uh, ex-partner, I guess, at Existing Conditions, would say about uh, you know, the ice or or the rice in sushi is like that's the base, you gotta get the base right, the bread's gotta be right.
+
+[59:47] Uh what do you guys think about that? You like that? That's definitely true. Yeah. Now, on sauce, I do like adding stuff like umami packed stuff like uh mush like mushrooms.
+
+[1:00:00] I I do calamata olives are good because they have a lot of salt as well uh as kind of an umami pop. I like anchovies ground in, uh, I like neonata ground in, which is another fish-based thing. So I'm a big fan. So I used to s we anything that has that kind of hit in it, uh, I like grinding it in. But people who want kind of more straight-ahead um pizza flavor, even though the sauce is delicious, if it's outside of the realm of what they're used to, some people are gonna be like, huh?
+
+[1:00:30] You know what I'm saying? So it's like it's like, what? Because like you can tell now, olives, calamodoles specifically, if you grind just a little bit of it in, like they're not gonna know what you've done necessarily. So you might be able to get away with it. But when I grind it in, I usually grind like a whole bunch of it in, and people can notice that all of a sudden it's like got some of that briny hit, which if you like olives is delicious, but I'm just telling you, some people are gonna find it like, you know, some people are gonna find it uh not as good.
+
+[1:01:01] What do you guys think about this? I'm up for anything in pizza sauce. I don't know. I mean oregano or no oregano in pizza sauce. I'm not a huge oregano guy.
+
+[1:01:10] Does really? That's fine. I don't but do do you think it doesn't taste like pizza, if there's not some oregano in it? Yeah, I think oregano is kind of like pizza flavor, right? I mean, classic, that's the classic, like it's gotta have at least a little bit of oregano in it.
+
+[1:01:24] That's like, you know. But to be honest, like until recently, I didn't use a lot of uh or any really I just never really had dried oregano around. And then I was talking to you know my brother-in-law Wiley, uh, who you know makes you making a lot of pizza at home during the the corona thing. And he's like, You're not putting dried oregano? What are you, an idiot?
+
+[1:01:44] And I was like, okay. And so now, you know, you know, when I make pizza, I'll add a little bit of dried oregano to the sauce. I think when you do sauce, I think concentrated flavor is good. Like um, for many, many years, I was a just let's get some tomato paste, blend a couple of canned tomatoes into it, and then adjust the flavor with kind of umami olive oil and you know, sometimes a little bit of cheese and salt, and then depending on who it was, some people like a little bit of sugar correction, some don't. The reason Domino's pizza sauce used to taste so terrible, by the way, was because of all of the sugar they added.
+
+[1:02:18] That stuff was basically a tomato lollipop. It's why that thing was such hard gold. Some of us have to go. Hey, look, you're the ones that were late getting on. Boom!
+
+[1:02:27] Well, we're already two minutes past. No, eight minutes. You know, I don't know, it's fine. You know, we do this once. We didn't even do it last week.
+
+[1:02:40] Yeah, and then I would still stay. Yeah. Yeah. All I'm saying is is that like, you know, I can do these, I can do this whenever. Anyway, thanks to uh by the way, I like how some of us have to leave.
+
+[1:02:56] Nastasia like invites, and you're guys are always welcome on. Invites a bunch of people over. Nastasia beforehand. Hey, back me up. Jack and uh Aaron.
+
+[1:03:06] Nastasi's like, Aaron yet to go. So well, you invite him on, but that's fine. Because they, you know, they're guests. They can come go, Jack. True or false.
+
+[1:03:13] Nastasi's like, listen, I don't want this to go long. So I'm gonna say that you need to go, and I need to go so that it ends. Just go with it. How much did that happen? Yes or no?
+
+[1:03:24] If you lie to me, I'll know. If you lie to me, Jack, I will know. Did I say that? I don't remember. Uh-huh.
+
+[1:03:31] Uh-huh. Pat, does that happen or did that not happen? I don't I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it didn't happen because today I feel like I would remember. Oh, no, not today. No, she didn't do that today.
+
+[1:03:41] She did not do that today? No, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I thought you were asking me historically. And I just want to say she she pointed a butter knife at me when she said when I said that. No, no, no.
+
+[1:03:50] She did not do that. That did not happen today. Seriously. Yeah. Has it happened in the past?
+
+[1:03:57] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. Fair enough. Dave Arnold.
+
+[1:04:00] All right. What do you say? Dave Arnold World. We just live in it. Oh, yeah.
+
+[1:04:06] Oh, yeah. I always get my way, right? Cooking issues. I miss this so much. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:04:23] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:04:38] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:05:00] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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@@ -0,0 +1,423 @@
+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. Learn more at Appeal.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're looking at things that have changed and things that are still in flux. From mothers balancing new lifestyles to the social stigma surrounding pumpkin spice.
+
+[0:21] You got rid of the star rating system and talked about like I'm not gonna use the word ethnic when I talk about food. They recognize that safety was our motivation, and they were very uh you know receptive to the changes understanding what we were trying to accomplish. A cupcake or a piece of bacon or a glass of rose is not inherently gendered. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm uh coming to you live from the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
+
+[1:14] We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez out there in undisclosed lower uh Southern California location. How are you doing, Nastasia? Uh, good, fine. I'm telling Rebecca to stop texting. Yeah, she knows we're in the show.
+
+[1:27] Rebecca, by the way, is the boondoggler. Yes, I know. Our intrepid uh, what's it called? Um PR brand person. We got uh John is uh coming to you for the last time prior to Thanksgiving in New York City.
+
+[1:41] He's gonna be he's gonna be uh quarantining himself up in Connecticut for the for the holiday. How you doing, John? Doing well. Doing well. Got Matt in the Heidi Hole booth, right?
+
+[1:51] Uh, yep, yep. I just, you know, accidentally mute myself, all the good stuff. Hey, speaking of this, you're in Rhode Island. Rhode Island right now is like the like the it's like the littlest state with the biggest hotspot right yeah I mean I I haven't been paying attention to the relative numbers but it's worse here than it's ever been before yeah you guys doing all right uh yeah I mean we we're we've been hunkered down yeah hunkering hunkering yeah uh my uh the album of my second college band was called hanker for a hunk of sleaze and uh that was a take on hanker for a hunk of cheese the PSA that they used to have about trying to get you to eat more cheese and it was like a ball almost like a phlegm shaped like a like a like a like a booger shaped man with a cowboy hat on and like a long pointy nose and stick legs and he was trying to teach you that you should be eating more cheese you ever heard this song you ever seen this PSA hanker for a hunk of cheese no one I'm the only one hanker for a hunker a slab of slice of chunkka a hanker for a hunk of cheese if I can find it I'll put it in a wagon wheel like they they want you to eh yeah it's classic uh it's classic PSA it's up there with uh all of the uh the Mormon the Mormon commercials about not lying you familiar with those I think we've discussed those on the air before Chef Joanna enthusiastically chimes in with a slab or a slice or a chunk of that's correct a hanker for a hunker a slab a slice of chunker a hanker for a hunk of cheese that's how it goes pretty much anyway uh and it's basically saying the the guy is saying that if you feel kind of like down and out and you don't have any energy that like you should eat cheese. Like if you're literally it's like if you're weak in the knees, a chunk of cheese.
+
+[3:39] And I don't know anyone who's like, you know what I need? I need fast energy, so I'm gonna eat cheese. Would you eat cheese for fast energy, Nastasia? Uh yeah, sometimes I do. Really?
+
+[3:49] You wouldn't go for like the nuts or like some sort of sugary to hit you real fast? I mean, cheese, I feel like it's more of a sustaining thing, plus it's gonna make you real thirsty, you know. Yeah. Do you get headaches? Oh, let me introduce who we have with us and we can talk about it.
+
+[4:02] I want to I wanna talk about eating too much cheese in the evening and its relationship to headaches the next morning with or without red wine. But before I do that, uh let's introduce. We have two guests. One's just coming on for uh a little bit, and one's gonna be with us for the rest of the show. So why don't I just uh introduce the first one?
+
+[4:20] We have Ben Simon from Ben to Table. He's on and he's talking about some a new collab that Booker and Dax is uh doing with uh with uh Ben to Table for the uh Thanksgiving. And we also have with us, and uh by the way, like I checked beforehand, we're doing the Jersey style pronunciation. James Breshon, who's here with his new book, Flavor for All. Uh James Breshon and your wife uh Brooke Parkhurst uh come out with uh a new book.
+
+[4:49] When when did it come out, James? Uh October 27th. Brand new. All right, so yeah, we're only we're only a couple of weeks into this. Uh and you might remember him from last time he was on with uh the flavor matrix.
+
+[5:02] So uh we'll talk, well, let's let's do let's let's talk about this collab first and then we'll get into flavor for all. So, Ben, you wanna you wanna say something about what's going on here? Sure. Um, hi, and welcome. Or I welcome to me.
+
+[5:13] Um, glad to be back on. Uh sorry. Uh so we are working together on a fun Searsol box. Um, so for all you torchheads, um, we're doing four of my favorite things that I think will go really well with warm weather, cold weather cooking, so warming cooking. Some beans from Rancho Gordo, some grits from Geeche Boy Mill.
+
+[5:39] A Italian culinary herb powder from Campagna. So handpicked, hand ground, a mix of thyme, sage, rosemary, bay leaf, and oregano. John and I were talking, it's basically like Italian poultry seasoning, right? It's like an upgraded 1970s smell, which I love. Yeah.
+
+[6:01] Like imagine it's like literally the perfect thing for stuffing, is the idea here. And then Villagerata's uh Harissa, which is one of my very favorite um things to put on specially bred stuffs. Uh but it's a wonderful, sort of the the the best version of Harissa I've yet found anywhere. They've used preserved lemon uh as well as really tasty Moroccan olive oil. Um so great for putting on toast with an egg, great for uh you know dipping a piece of meat into.
+
+[6:33] Um so really nice for for winter cooking. Um so those will come with uh a bunch of booker and dAx stuff. Do you or Nastasia wanna want to talk about that? Good, go ahead. No, Dave, go all right.
+
+[6:47] Well here, so you it's your turn to promote it. Oh, you did all Nastasia made me sign 400 postcards. It took me hours and hours and hours to sign because she made me put my little elf on every postcard. Hey, listen, Nastasia's been setting up websites, newsletters. She's been she's been pulling her way too.
+
+[7:07] I'm not saying she hasn't been, but she just said that she's doing everything. Not fair. I mean, with this, yes. With this, the vast majority. There we go.
+
+[7:15] All right. But I have to say, like, you know, it's not like I haven't been working on designing new products for us. That's true, too. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[7:24] So, um, or testing them. Whatever. I'm just saying. Uh, so a lot of you out there, some of you have seers all ready, but maybe your screen is getting a little long in the tooth, burning out. So we decided, since nobody likes to buy the screens because they're super expensive.
+
+[7:42] They're expensive because they cost a lot to make, because they're coated in palladium, they might as well be a piece of jewelry for you know, for the amount of palladium that we have to put on those suckers. But um, we figured, uh, no one likes to buy that. So what if we made a package with, you know, Ben's curated stuff for the season, and then you could get a set of screens uh to like refurbish your your Searsol for the for the holiday seasons, in case you need to give your bird a little touch up, a little touch up, right? Or whatever you cook for, you know, your your Thanksgiving, your Christmas, you need a little touch up on it, you know, your screen's right there, and you don't have to feel like a jerk shelling out a bunch of money just for the screens, right, Stas? And then we figured, well, some people might not have a Searsol at all, and they might want one, and they might want some cool holiday kind of food to go with it.
+
+[8:28] So we also have a Sears All only package, which by the way makes a great gift for people who don't already own one. Am I right? Am I right, Sas? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[8:36] Uh and so that was the basic idea, no? And in it, Nastasia created so like uh we we used to do this thing called uh the the Franken, what are we what do we call it? Frank and turkey? What do we call it? Bionic turkey.
+
+[8:50] Bionic turkey. And uh where we would rip the bones out of a turkey from the inside out, leaving it whole like some sort of alien creature, recreate a skeleton out of aluminum, put the skeleton into the bird, pipe hot oil and butter into the skeleton to cook it from the inside out, drop it into a big bath, pull it out, and then like chill it, remove all the skeletons so it's just bird now, a like a big shell of bird without any bones, and then deep fry that sucker and then pull it out and then give it a touch up wherever it's not fully brown with it with a searzole. So we haven't talked about it in a long time. So Nastasia made a quote unquote how-to, right? Although it's not a full how to, right, Nastasia, because if you don't know.
+
+[9:34] Yeah. Probably shouldn't attempt, right? If you can't, if you can't figure out based on Nastasia's drawings how to do it, you probably should not attempt it. Am I right? Right.
+
+[9:46] Yep. But in each one of these packages, you'll get a postcard that Nastasia drew of uh of a turkey getting a nice tan from the uh from uh a Searsol, and then a uh her drawings of a how-to of how to make the the bionic turkey, along with uh what uh Ben just told you in the box. P.S. Uh you never know which one of the Geechee uh uh the the the which one of the grits you're gonna get. It could be it could be the blue, it could be the Jimmy Red, you never know.
+
+[10:17] Same with the Rancho Gordo beans. It's kind of like a puppy surprise for those of you that remember the puppy surprise toys. You guys remember the puppy surprise? Mm-hmm. How many puppies are there inside?
+
+[10:28] Remember that? There could be three. We we've talked about this before, so I won't go into it. Um yeah, but is that right? Where do they get this?
+
+[10:35] They can go on Booker and Dax.com slash BDX holiday2020, or they can go on Bend the Table. Ben, what's your site? Uh bendable.com and I'll have it in it'll be a there's a gifts section if you scroll down a smidge and it'll be right there. Link to smidge up put it up on the socials. Um then we also have our newsletter which just came out today.
+
+[10:59] So it's it if you signed up for it, which you can go into Dave's Instagram stories, um it's there and you can sign up for future ones. But we talk about this gift set, we talk about the auction to come on the show in LA. We talk about what Dave's reading, what I'm reading, uh what you hate, what you love, Dave. Well, next time though, it's gonna have yours and Rebecca's and John's loves and hates as well, though. It can't just be my loves and talks about what he's reading, Rebecca Gibbs, her own little corner, and we have a poetry section.
+
+[11:33] Um you wanna read the poem, S I can't pull it up right now. But no, let it be a surprise for people because it's a good one. Well, people who people who listen to the show, you know the poem. It's just it never gets old, right, Sas? Never, never.
+
+[11:50] So yeah, so that's that's gonna be coming on a maybe bi-monthly or monthly basis. But yeah, and if you have a poem that you think can unseat our favorite poem, you can try, but good luck. And I'll have you know, people, that Nastasia Lopez is a Stanford educated poetry maven. So you're not gonna slip some BS past her and have it be some sort of like garb garb poetry. She will know.
+
+[12:18] Yeah, you have to dethrone this poem, so try. Yeah, try. But good luck. Good luck with it. I'm thinking I I still wanna put that poem in in in my next book should it ever get finished.
+
+[12:30] What? Yeah. So yes. What do you Nastasia? Oh, hey, you know what?
+
+[12:29] James, I'll talk to you about it. You don't do the poem at the beginning because it's not really chapters in the same way. What do you think about what do you think about uh poems at the or not like quotes at the beginning of every chapter? What's your feeling on that? I noticed you did not do it.
+
+[12:46] I didn't do it in my first book, but what do you think about it as a thing? I mean, you know, if it if it makes sense, uh it can work. I think, you know, uh uh I you're often found, and I'm sure you probably the same thing in writing books, like you get an idea like that, and you're like, yeah, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do, you know, put a quote here, and then you get halfway through, and then you're just forcing them, you know. Yeah, same thing. You think the first half do you write your books in order, or is it like me where like the last chapter is the first chapter I wrote?
+
+[13:15] Oh, yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm all over the place. It's like, you know, I'm I'm doing chicken, a couple chicken recipes this day, and then we're bouncing to fish and then into desserts, and yeah, I I don't I I can't do that. I can't just like plow through one section at a time. I get too scattered. All right.
+
+[13:31] So let's for those that don't know, let's let's go through like the like the the basic in a nutshell. So the last time we spoke to you, you were just leaving. Thank Ben for coming on the show. Oh, he's gonna he's gonna leave. All right, Ben, if you're leaving, thanks for coming on.
+
+[13:43] Go to benditable.com. Are you like uh, you know, we've worked with you before. For those of you that don't know, the whole McGillah is Ben's chilling up in New Haven, and he finds products that you might not have at your local grocery mart that are curated and then packaged together with a theme, and he sends them to you on the regular should you ask for that to happen. And they're all high quality pantry style uh goods that aren't gonna like go bad on you, and you can use them when you want, but they're easy to integrate in, and they're always uh top notch uh top notch products is this an accurate statement Ben that is an accurate statement all right well uh go ahead and sign up get the gifts yeah sign up get the gifts in time for the holidays and sign up for our newsletter etc well there's thanks by uh all right so james when last we met you were had just had you just left uh ice or were you about to something like that still yeah it was getting ready to I think I think all the all the things all the the plans were in motion um moving down back to my hometown Penskola Florida to open a restaurant was leaving uh my position at ICE and um had just just come out with flavor matrix. Yeah so ICE is the Institute for Culinary Education formerly Peter Cump and now uh as the evil empire overlords that you are took over my uh former place the uh French culinary which later changed their name to the International Culinary Center and if you could keep track of that you're a better person than I am.
+
+[15:13] So when you were at uh ICE right uh you were part of a project with uh IBM's Watson which is not just the name of my small dog but also the name of their uh fancy computer program um where they were analyzing uh flavors and recipes right yeah yep exactly trying to uh so they'd kind of gone through the process you know Watson on Jeopardy they knew they knew um you know with their native language systems that could interpret and answer any question that was out there, but they wanted to see if Watson could make people more creative. So they uh decided to you know take all of that incredible computing technology, apply it to cooking, um, and see what the results were gonna be. Now, were you interested? Now, now you had been working on this, and then when you came out with um when you came out with uh flavor matrix, right? You were using a lot of the stuff that you had kind of gleaned from that project on um specifically on pairing and like why things kind of go together.
+
+[16:18] Um were you interested in that prior to the Watson, or is that really what got you into that? That you know, it was that one really was what got me into it. I mean, I, you know, the uh so a component of what Watson was doing was was using um you know the the flavor pairing theory, which really was something Heston Blumenthal uh created just 1999, and they were doing just experiments in their in their test kitchen out of Fat Duck and stumbled upon the combination of uh caviar and white chocolate. Like the whole crew was blown away by it, and they couldn't figure it out they wanted to understand why that was such a great combination. They took it to some flavor scientists and ran some analysis and saw you know some of these uh you know pairing matches on on the compounds in those in those two ingredients, and so it all kind of you know started from there.
+
+[17:06] So it's all you know very new, and I had really never heard of it until uh you know, until I was reading some of the background research on on the Watson project, um, and was just totally fascinated by it and wanted to wanted to kind of dive in and learn more and the whole idea with the flavor matrix was that uh you know, for everyone else in the world who doesn't have access to uh the Watson mainframe, like how do you how can you get a hold of that information for yourself? And now uh sorry, I just have to do this because you triggered me with white chocolate. Like, do you like white chocolate? Does anyone like white chocolate? I mean, do you like sugar?
+
+[17:44] Do you like milk? I mean, I I'm ish, yeah. But I mean, like, in other words, like you say the word chocolate, and like my mouth starts to water, and then like you pre-pend white to it, and I'm like, oh man, did you have to do that? Yeah, no, I think you know, it's really I mean, it's really interesting that that was the combination that that triggered it because I mean, truly, white chocolate is just milk, and I mean it's it the flavors are milk, is is really what you're getting. Cocoa butter, like when it properly done, should be completely odorless, so it should be you know absolutely flavorless.
+
+[18:17] So you're getting like a little bit of vanilla. I really think it was just the salty and sweet, like the intense sweetness with the salty caviar was really what that combination wound up being about. And then they just kind of by accident realized these other things. Right. Now that brings me to a point and to my whole kind of, and we had this argument the last time you were on.
+
+[18:36] So before we get into this argument, the argument's gonna be about flavor pairing based on uh on chemical compounds. That's the argument, that's what the argument's gonna be. But uh before we get into that argument, uh why don't you let us know what happened since that came out? So you went to Pensacola, uh, you started a a restaurant with uh your wife, who was also a co-author on the on the first book, right? Yep.
+
+[19:00] And so so what you want to talk about this restaurant and how you guys doing during the like how did how's Florida working during the pandemic for restaurants? Uh yeah, I don't know if you've heard. Um it's it's been a little bit rough down here. Um yeah, it's not going well. No, I mean, Florida as a state, not doing great.
+
+[19:17] Um, but we're we're kind of way here at the very end of the panhandle, almost like almost the Alabama border, right on the Gulf Coast. Um, so we you know made it through the first of the restaurant, uh, Thain restaurant, um, beautiful, fantastic. You know, we do handmade pastas, uh wood fired oven, uh, you know, that whole deal of like real, real Italian, um, something kind of new and different for the area, which which I'm very proud of, and I think is you know, the community has really taken to. So that is that's all great. Um, yeah, we had just made it through COVID.
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+[19:49] Basically, we had about a six-week shutdown uh where we were, you know, takeout only. Um kind of got back through that, and then we just had two hurricanes come through here, um, which also sucked. Um shut up. Yeah, yeah. Sally uh in particular was pretty much a direct hit on us.
+
+[20:09] Um put closed the restaurant for about a week because of it, you know, lost, lost the entire yeah, we were out of power for five days, so we lost the entire walk-in cooler, um, you know, and had to kind of build back again after that. So it's just been, yeah, it's been I mean, not not unique perspective here, but it's been a hell of a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, this year has taught uh all of us that like uh you know, just when you think you got knocked down, you get knocked down again. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:35] We can we can actually get knocked down further. So yeah, yeah, yeah. As long as you're still breathing, you can get knocked down again. You know what I mean? Um anyway.
+
+[20:44] Uh all right, but so well, how long were you open before that happened? How much of the normal times did you have? Yeah, so that was the thing. Like, so we opened in uh July of last year. So we were I think when you know when we hit the COVID shutdown, I think we'd been open for about eight months.
+
+[21:03] Yeah. Which is you know, a tough, a tough time for that to happen. Yeah, for those of you that like aren't in the business, like your first like year or so, you're really trying to, even if everything that the guest sees is like on firm footing, you're still trying to like figure out how you're gonna make back your opening costs. You're still getting your systems in order, you're getting the flow right. It's like a hard time, and you're also working like a freaking demon for, you know, if it's your only restaurant at least a year, and it like even if it's like your second or third for like six, eight months.
+
+[21:37] So it's like it's a tough time. And my James, back me up on this, right? It's a tough time, you know what I mean. Brutal and getting, you know, and getting the staff, you know, in order and getting them, you know, right and and used to kind of the systems that you want in place and the ways you know that you that you want things done. I mean, you know, it's you just it's impossible to have you know that luxury of spending a couple weeks of training typically, you know.
+
+[21:59] Once you kind of pull that staff together, it's it's just really go time. And um, no, it's a yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's it's finding your footing. It's you know, you open up with the menu that you think is you know amazing and perfect, and then you know, you uh in three weeks, you're like, okay, we need to pivot on this, this, this, and this, because you know, this is what people are responding to, or people have no interest in this, and they're you know, all they ask for every day is is you know, this dish, whatever. Yeah, what was that dish?
+
+[22:28] Was it something you liked or something you hated? Oh, yeah, hated. Yeah. I mean, I it's always the way. It's well, you know, which I've still have never done and and will never do is we we'll never have an Alfredo pasta dish on on our menu.
+
+[22:43] Um dislike all gloppy pastas or just that one because people are asking for it. I mean, j that one in particular, also because it's just not, I mean, what people want is that garlicky white wine parmesan cream sauce. They don't even want like, you know, cafe Alfredo, Borrow Yapamigiano. They just want that cream cheese sauce, and I'm never gonna do that. Nastasia, you had a good uh uh Alfredo sauce over there.
+
+[23:10] Did people order that one a lot, or are we like uh, or is it not a New York thing, the Alfredo? Yeah, it was our best selling sauce because people like that. And we give people they had a good design though. Like uh you would have actually appreciated it, James. They uh, you know, I'm not allowed to divulge any of their uh IP and whatnot, but they had a they had a good they had a good way of because the their QSR was like crazy on point, right, Stas.
+
+[23:37] You like you designed that crap so that it like it it served out real it served out real quick and nice, right? Yeah. But you guys wouldn't budge on the pasta itself. So unlike, you know, kind of what you know, James, what you're saying, where like the average person ordering the Alfredo, which might have been true even at Pasta Flyer, but they don't care about the pasta, they just want the creamy sauce. I mean, you know, obviously Nastasia never lost sight of the pasta, right?
+
+[24:02] Yeah. Um anyway. Yeah, I I you know I I miss the sauce. I used to live right on the street from Pasta Flyer. Yeah.
+
+[24:11] Yeah. Uh yeah, good times back when New York was a place that people went. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh all right, so let's so then you come out with this book, which is an extension, flavor for all, is an extension of the ideas from the flavor matrix, but more of more arranged in like a kind of I would say normal cookbook fashion, in that like here's some here's some sweets, here's some veg, here's some meat, right?
+
+[24:37] I mean, that was kind of like the the shtick taking it more into kind of like an everyday cooking thing and less of a I'm gonna go in a flavor matrix kind of way right was that the kind of gist of it yeah exactly it's it's you know this so flavor for all and you know uh one of the things one of the questions we got you know the most with after flavor matrix is you know people were super into it and you know loved using it to to build their own dishes and create their own dishes but you know people we would always ask us you know so but like what do you cook like what do you make at home you know when you're making dinner for the kids and and all of that um and because you know I think we did some some good recipes some really great recipes in in the flavor matrix but they're um you know they're meant to be kind of like push the envelope as far as like you know the combinations and some of the techniques and and all of that and you know they're not they're they're project recipes are not necessarily everyday recipes so you know we wanted to take some of those and and just also just kind of show that application of the flavor matrix about how you know it's not not you know not everything is you know uh needs to be an 11 Madison style dish it's it's you know a subtle twist on on the things that you make all the time that can make it you know a little more interesting a little more exciting so how old are your kids um eleven and five picky or not picky um the little the five year old's going through his little picky phase now um he used to be really great and he's kind of you know being a pain in the butt now um the 11 year old's great she's always always been aren't you lucky nice yeah uh yeah jeez all right so now let's have this argument and Stas, you never way in a way in on what you know, I don't know what you think about it because you never weigh in on this, but you know, and John, you weigh in. So here's the thing. In my opinion, let's have this fight. In my opinion, like, I think that choosing flavors based on compounds that they share, right? Is like an interesting thing to trigger an idea in your head.
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+[26:41] And I think you probably don't disagree with this. Absolutely. So far, so far I'm with you. Yeah, but it's still based on your ability to once something is triggered in your head that you might not have thought of, to be like, yeah, that works, or yeah, that doesn't work, right? Because like, you know, there could be a compound in eggs and poop that are the same, but I'm not gonna put poop in my eggs.
+
+[27:02] At least not on purpose. See, that's where I disagree. I think you should be putting poop in your eggs. Like, you need to put that quote on the cover of your book. This is definitely that's going in the show right up for sure.
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+[27:18] Put poop in your eggs. Oh man. John, what do you think about it? No, no, so yeah, I'm no, I'm I'm actually so far, we're not on for I'm sorry, we're not arguing. Um, I I mean, I can try to stake out the other side if you want, but no, I'm I'm with you, right?
+
+[27:30] So, you know, you can it's it's a great starting point. It I think it's really great for inspiration and kind of you know to get get you moving in a direction. Um, but it's not, you know, it's not flawless. Like, yeah, there's there's a way to make these two ingredients. It kind of shows you that there can be a way to make these two ingredient ingredients work, but just because like you, you know, mushrooms and strawberries, I think is is is a great one.
+
+[27:54] Like, just because you chop up some mushrooms and strawberries and throw them in the same pot doesn't mean they're just automatically gonna taste good. Yeah, one of the things people would uh often ask me, you know, with this, or you know, talking about either the flavor matrix or in flavor for all, they're like, oh, I don't like salmon, so can I use this to make something that's gonna make me, you know, to make a dish that's gonna make me like salmon? No, if you don't like salmon, you're not gonna like salmon. I can't, yeah, I we can't change the flavors of salmon. If you really like salmon and want to, you know, have kind of a new and exciting and unexpected dish that you know that combines some flavors you had never had with some before.
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+[28:28] Yeah, we can do that, but like no, we're not, you know, we're not changing structures and and making things, you know, just completely different. Yeah, when I was uh a kid and my family, they still do this. My my dad and I used to be, I he'd be like, the the argument goes like this. Eat it. You love salmon.
+
+[28:46] I hate salmon. It doesn't taste like salmon, right? So it's like you can't, you know what I mean? It's like that's how the argument always goes. This episode brought to you by Appeal.
+
+[29:08] Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash. We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long.
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+[29:26] It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Because here's the thing less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away. It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system, from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs.
+
+[29:49] Appeal. Food gone good. Learn more at Appeal.com. Alright, let's talk about one of them. Uh Nastasia, I can't remember whether you love avocado toast or hate avocado toast.
+
+[30:02] You're not neutral though. I can't remember which one it is. Yeah, I think it's good. I just don't think it deserves all the the I don't know. The new hype that it gets.
+
+[30:11] Even though you're in the land of magical avocados right now? I eat an avocado every morning. Yes. Yeah. But not in toast format.
+
+[30:19] I have it with a piece of bread, but it's not together. Now, what are your do you have any thoughts on avocados grown in Florida versus California? No. Alright. Now, James, do you eat like Florida avocados like hostile, or are you having more like the Dominican style down there, like the smooth skin, big, like less oily ones?
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+[30:41] Are you going straight Haas on this? I don't mean like what's more in your markets over there. Um Haas. That yeah, yeah, you those are mostly just in South Florida. Yeah, so we're we're having we actually have more of a California.
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+[30:54] More of a California style of avocado. And by the way, Pensacola, isn't that where Joe uh Scarborough is from? Are you personal friends with him? Uh actually my partner, um our partners in the restaurant, very good friends with Joe. Yeah.
+
+[31:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh all right. So your your avocado toast, right? Now what you do that's atypical is it's um now you put apple in it, that's atypical. Then you put fennel, which is a good match with apple, obviously, right?
+
+[31:24] Cocoa, ancho chili, uh, and that you know that that's the flavor combo. So which ones here are the are the chemical matchups, and like how does that how does that work there? So it's actually you know, um, fennel and apple. Um so there it's actually kind of two phases uh on that one. First is is the the pennelin apple, and those are are tying in like actually you know in that recipe the one the the compound that we highlight that that is the the common thread through all of those is is linolul um which is you know sort of that citrusy bergamot you know sort of aroma um so that's that's present in in all of um in all of those are avocado fennel and apple and you know a lot of that actually also comes from um the the botanical class like they're all those are they're all sort of tied together there um in in the laurel or uh with roots in the laurel family um but also the the the other thing there is with you know the oxidation of of the fats avocado pairs really really well with with big like toasted and roasted aromas which is where the cocoa and ancho chili comes in um you know obviously you know I don't I don't know how some people feel about it I don't like cooking avocados you know like grilled avocado was a thing for a little bit but I don't like the I remember that yeah I don't like the texture when avocado gets hot so you know if you want to try to kind of imprint some of those you know roasted aromas into it um you know cocoa powder sprinkling a little cocoa powder over something is a great way to do that or you know some toasted sesame seeds which is which is you know something you probably see a lot with uh with avocado toast as well how much do you hate a burnt sesame seed a burnt sesame seed a lot yeah how much do you hate when people toast sesame seeds and they burn they burn the snot out of them how many times have you seen that in your life um a lot a lot.
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+[33:20] A lot. And the same when um, you know, and and you know, moving up that chain uh almonds and everything when uh or pine nuts when um people toast them in a saute pan over really really high heat, and they just get like a black dot in the center of them. Ugh. And it costs so much, and so you add them anyway because you just wasted all that money, but now the entire not only have you wasted all the money on the pine nuts, but now the entire dish tastes like poison. Yeah, it's the worst.
+
+[33:49] Ugh. I hate it. When I was at the SCI, whenever this the students would invariably this Nastasi and I would wait, whenever they were doing that, especially in the Italian kitchen, we would wait to see how many of the students scorch their nuts. Remember that, Stas? Yeah, yes.
+
+[34:04] Yeah. You can smell it even with all the hoods, man. And of course, they would invariably add it to the dish and ruin ruin on top of ruin. Remember, when you're cooking, or you're doing anything, right? You have this internal thing that wants everything to be alright.
+
+[34:21] Like when Homer Simpson, when Lisa goes vegetarian and she knocks the pig out of the grill, and the pig goes kind of flying through the air and in a stream and off a cliff, and Homer's running after it saying, It's still good, it's still good, it's still good, right? We all have that inkling of doing that, especially when we spent money and time on something. Don't do it. Don't add the burnt nuts. Don't do it.
+
+[34:44] Anyway, that's my feeling. Um what are your thoughts on also with chilies? I think people uh when they're toasting their chilies, have a tendency to burn the chili, and because it's a dried chili, they don't know that they've burnt it until it's too late. And I hate that flavor of over-toasted chili. I would rather have no toast at all on my dried chili, right?
+
+[35:06] I think people, when they cook fresh peppers, they're like, oh, I could scorch the skin and it's fine, it tastes good, and they're right, right? So they put that same mentality into when they're toasting dry chilies, but an overtoasted dry chili is a freaking nightmare to me. Nightmare. I don't know. That's just me.
+
+[35:22] What do you guys think about this? No, I'll listen. I'm with you. It's I think we're we're having the same. You're having your FCI flashbacks.
+
+[35:28] I'm having my ice flashbacks to, you know, watching all of our culinary students do these exact things. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing, like Stas, what is it the students, did the students do anything that like trigger you in general, or you couldn't even be bothered paying attention to them? With food, no.
+
+[35:44] I don't remember. I can't even remember back then. Yeah. You know, yeah. You just liked that we had to work in a in a garbage closet, literal garbage closet.
+
+[35:52] Yeah, that was my favorite. That was your fave. Yeah. Um the other one uh I hated is um when they wouldn't they wouldn't seize they wouldn't season at the right time and they wouldn't salt correct properly throughout that used to drive me bananas. Bananas.
+
+[36:10] Uh all right. Um so the avocado toast, did we do we've even finished talking about it? I I feel like I just got triggered by the by the burnt by the burnt nuts. Um I don't know. I mean, I think we yeah, I think we kind of via nail that.
+
+[36:24] So and I think, you know, it gets down to right, so like fennel and apple, um, really, really great in combination with avocado, but it's they're because of the shared compounds, but they're not things you're like, you're gonna you're not gonna get apple notes when you bite into an avocado. You know, they're they're they're kind of hidden, uh, I think you know, a little bit in there, which is what, you know, kind of working through sort of you know a lot of the data um of, you know, I mean, for people who are sports fans, I always you know, liken this to you know, and this is like the analytics of of flavors, you know. You're kind of going beyond just the surface numbers or the the surface taste when you when you bite into something and you know, seeing the things that that that lead to connections that you wouldn't necessarily maybe not necessarily stumble on on your own. Yeah. The uh you know what the you know what the dumb, the dumb like English person who's never been to uh never been here, what their word for avocados is.
+
+[37:23] Like, I'm not talking like English people now, I mean like English people like 200 years ago. You know what it is? Oh yeah, I I yes, I do, and I like this other alligator pear. Yeah. Right.
+
+[37:32] I like this as a game, just like making up uh making up these names for like to pretend like you don't know what an orange is, you know. What do you call it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, alligator pear, no, but like so it was called an alligator pear. But what's interesting is that like they must have been having, like I was saying, like some of these varieties, like a Dominican variety or like a Colombian variety, a very low oil, firmer variety of avocado, because you much more get the fruit notes in an avocado when you have a low oil avocado.
+
+[38:05] But all of us have been spoiled by very high oil varieties like Haas and bacon and whatnot. And so, like you say, it becomes hard for us to even think about the fruit component of an avocado. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But if you go back to its old name for people who didn't grow up with them, uh alligator pear, right?
+
+[38:27] You can think, oh, I get it, like, you know, they were probably eating what we would call a garbage avocado. And I've always used it as an excuse, uh not excuse, but as like a teaching moment for myself that not every avocado has to be this like super rich, oily, buttery, like Haas to be good. It needs to be that to be a good has avocado. But it doesn't that there is there is a use for these other avocado styles, you know. Yeah, wow, and you're going, you're actually going a lot deeper there than than when I heard that and thought of it.
+
+[39:04] I thought we were just, I thought they were just going pear because of the shape. Oh, well, you might be right too. That's also probably true. And what you're saying is probably accurate. But what I'm saying is like maybe I'm giving them more credit than they deserve.
+
+[39:16] I probably am. But you know, um, because right, a Haas does look like a pear. But to me, everything is pear-shaped, right, Nastasia? Uh yep. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:25] Uh, all right. Uh I'm gonna like run through some questions, but why don't you pick what's your what's your favorite recipe to highlight the process? It's in the book. The what's your favorite one to highlight the process? Um I think uh, you know, one I think that that hits really well because it delivers you some of kind of the classic stuff that you know.
+
+[39:44] It's a it's uh just a pan seared pork medallions with uh roasted apples. Um pork and apple, like nothing, nothing new and and earth shattering there. Um, but what I really like about this one is is kind of building in the process because you know, pork tenderloin, um I'm sure you'll agree, not the best piece of the pig to be eating. No, I'm crying inside thinking about how many people buy it on purpose. Um because you know, flavor-wise, because it's not it's not much.
+
+[40:14] It's it's a good, it's a good lean protein, and like for a quick meal to take that, slice it into medallions. You can have, you know, you can have those medallions cooked in like three or four minutes apiece if you if you slice them the right size. Yeah, except for people cook it more because like like it it doesn't have like a lot of pork flavor, but thank Christ it dries out quick. Um so what we do there, so taking that, seasoning it with like a little bit of um coriander and ground coffee, um doing the really quick sear on those, please leave it pink in the middle, and then um you're building what turns out to be like a super flavorful sauce um with a lot of depth um with deglazing the pan first uh with the apples in the pan with bourbon, taking that all the way down, then balsamic vinegar, then stock. So you get like a lot of these really huge, big, deep, rich, roasted um flavors coming through in the dish in about like 15 minutes of effort.
+
+[41:15] So wait, so what what what kind of ground coffee are you using? Do you like espresso ground? Is it do you need is it a particular yeah? I go, yeah, pretty fine. Actually, like the last couple times I've done this, I didn't have anything, I didn't have what I needed in the pantry.
+
+[41:27] I just popped open an espresso pod and uh sprinkled that over the pork. Huh. I uh I used to I don't know if I've said this on air, but um the ever, but the the singer in uh one of my bands in college, after you know, after I left, became a manager at an ice cream shop, and he used to uh no sorry at a coffee shop, and he used to go next door to the ice cream shop and he would bring over like a bunch of Turkish ground coffee. He would like set his grinders on the finest thing possible, put Turkish grind coffee, and then just dump coffee grinds, grounds on top of uh his vanilla ice cream and pound it. And he also smoked like two packs a day.
+
+[42:14] So he was like, he was just like this his voice was like an angel. He sounded like Eddie Vetter. Attractive guy too. And but he shook like a freak in Chihuahua because he was like eating coffee grounds and smoking cigarettes like the end of the world was coming. And that's on top of the espresso he was pounding as his only non-alcoholic form of liquid intake.
+
+[42:35] So he was a hardcore dude. Yeah. I haven't seen him in a while. Health health nut, huh? Yeah, health nut.
+
+[42:41] I mean, uh again, you know, like he he looked, he looked great. It didn't seem to hurt the outside. I'm sure his inside was getting slowly eaten away, but um, you know, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Uh you can't have everything.
+
+[42:51] Uh so yeah, all right. So how much coffee grounds are you putting on it? Uh, you know, not much. I mean like what I like to do is is mix it, you know, mixing that in with the salt and the ground coriander. Um I think it's I don't know, I don't I don't have it in front of me, but it's it's like a uh, you know, for for seasoning a whole tenderloin, we're talking about like a teaspoon.
+
+[43:12] So this is kind of like a uh like an interesting take on red eye gravy. Do they don't have red eye gravy uh as far south as you, do they or do they? Uh a little bit, a little bit. You know, we're we're kinda I mean, we're kind of the deep south, you know, here. I mean, like it's uh I'm closer to Alabama and Georgia than I am to, you know.
+
+[43:30] I always kind of put it this way, people in Pensacola, if I got in a car and started driving, I could get to Nashville quicker than I could get to Miami. Right, right, right. But I but I always yeah, so right. I always think of red-eye gravy as being kind of like Virginia, North Carolina, and like kind of like not not north and not south, you know what I mean? It it is, and that's definitely kind of like you know, where it is, and I think I would say like late 90s, early 2000s, when everyone was getting super into southern cooking.
+
+[43:59] That was like one of those things. That was like one of the breakout stars of of that scene, and it sort of really started to spread out everywhere. Is that where you came to it though, from the red eye gravy? Or what was the chemical compound? What was the pairing on that one?
+
+[44:12] Um, yeah, that one was actually more about just um l looking to build those big roasted aromas in the dish without, you know, um quickly. You know, without without having to sear the hell out of the pork so you end up over you know overcooking it, um, being able to kind of cook quick and still get these kind of like big smoky roasted flavors going on. So, what are your tips for people to uh not uh dry the hell out of those things other than uh other than make it quick? Yeah, I mean that's that's it. Make you know make it quick.
+
+[44:42] Um and you know, the the I think that's you know, one of the things we talk about in the recipes is you know, you're you're using this seasoning here that's gonna give you that that roasted flavor, so you don't have to have that super hard sear. Um, you know, really what even what we do is get the quick sear, take them out of the pan, get the sauce built, and then throw them back in and just you know, finish them off in the sauce. So, like, but how like how long in the so that I feel that's also old school. Like every all the old school recipes, like so like uh I read a lot of, you know, I read a lot of old old books, right? And so it used to be like the like things that you would now think of as exclusively quick cooking, right?
+
+[45:19] It's do the thing in the pan, pull the thing out of the pan, rest it, make the sauce, put the thing back in the pan, let them merry for a minute or two, and then serve it out. And I feel like uh you don't see that kind of instruction a lot anymore. The interesting thing about that instruction is is that a little bit of if you take it off way before it's done, let it rest a little bit, then put it back in the sauce, that'll gently bring it back up. And it's not actually a bad way to get something up to not being too cooked in the middle, but kind of being warm throughout because what you're essentially doing is two fast cooks because even though it seems low, if it's in hot sauce, it's actually a relatively fast way of cooking. Would you agree with that or not?
+
+[45:59] Well, 100%. 100%. It's also, you know, it's a technique we use a lot. Uh you know, that try to hammer into the cooks um with pastas with shrimp in them. You know, if you're building building every pasta to order, so we start by you know sauteing some shrimp.
+
+[46:16] I like to if you if you think about it, if if those shrimp are in there the entire time through the building of the sauce and then through the marrying with the pasta, they're just cooking way, way too long. So, like to get a little sear on the shrimp, you know, get that fawn, get that flavor into the pan, get the shrimp out, build the sauce, build the pasta all the way through, and then get the shrimp back in right at the end. Big shrimping, big shrimping, baby. Um, I if you don't uh I think shrimp, I'm trying to think. What are my feelings on viciously overcooked shrimp?
+
+[46:49] What Nastasia and John, what are your thoughts on viciously overcooked shrimp? Or Matt, you eat shrimp. What do you think about it? Does it kill you? Can you not eat it?
+
+[46:57] I know some people that can't eat a viciously overcooked shrimp, like it just pisses them off so much. Yeah, pretty much in that camp. I mean, I it's just such a waste of potential, and it's so e well, I mean, it's pretty easy to not do that. What about viciously overcooked scallops? Same.
+
+[47:15] Same situation, and that's even maybe more sad. Hmm. Stas, what about you? I don't like scallops at all. And shrimp, I mean, I'd eat it.
+
+[47:28] I forget, is is there a reason that you want to that with that's uh like available for the scallops? Was that you had too many, or did you have a bad experience, or just in general? Too many. Yeah. Too many.
+
+[47:37] You know where John was recently was in the land of the of my favorite scallops. He was on uh were you the vineyard or Nantucket? You were Nantucket, right? Oh my god, if you like scallops, Nantucket scallops are so stupidly good. Oh my god.
+
+[47:51] They're so good. I had heard sometime recently that you can like treat uh shrimp pre-cooking with like baking soda, like you sprinkle a little baking soda on them to avoid overcooking them if you're prone to doing that. Why would that cause them to I mean uh like uh something basic like that might make them absorb more water, but I don't think it's gonna stop them from overcooking, and it has the very real possibility of making them taste real soapy. They'll brown faster. Uh-huh.
+
+[48:22] Yeah, I was wondering if you had a theory on why. I mean, I don't know. Uh, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure, James, that you've tried all of these tricks, but there was a period of time ten years ago when uh a bunch of people, uh I think a lot of them coming from the Netherlands, actually, were interested in this idea of adding excess baking soda to things like meat that you were gonna put into uh a meat sauce like a ragu or bolinese or something like this, and then um hitting it so that it browns up because if you add base, you increase the browning rate dramatically. Um, and then afterwards adding an acid to it to neutralize all the extra disgusting base that you've added to your meat, and then serving that out brown. Uh, I always hated it.
+
+[49:07] Do you ever try that stuff, James? I mean, some people like it. Yeah, I yeah, I think that was one of those ones where, you know, you you get that little nugget of of information and you're like, hey, this is a cool fact, and then you just run wild with it and do it unnecessarily to so many different things. Yeah, I never really never really got into it. I mean it was, you know, cool to spine out that fact that you know, you know, you know, adding the baking soda here is really going to increase the browning.
+
+[49:31] Um and then it just tastes like, you know, it tastes like that stuff you like to mix in your eggs uh later. Yeah, poop. Chef Joe It was you that likes to butt yeah yeah you were the one who suggested everyone put poop in their eggs. That's the the record is clear on that. They suggested it first I just confirmed that he should put it in his eggs.
+
+[49:53] No you disagreed you I have to disagree I'm gonna run it back right now. I have to disagree with you there. Go to the tape. Yeah we're going to the tapes go to the video tape. Uh wait Chef Joanna said something about is it it was part of velveting with egg white what is velveting with shrimp?
+
+[50:09] Yeah that's true. Yeah Chinese technique yeah that's true right but I feel that's a different thing. That's more of uh yeah that's yeah that was and I mean that's more about like trying to use the baking side almost like as a scrub to to uh smooth the surface and you know almost like create like a little non-stick coating on the on the shrimp. Yeah I have to go reread it velveting was another thing that I feel like I got into a deep hole on because a lot of people were asking me about it years and years ago I have to go back. I I you know um I've been thinking a lot about starch recently when I'm doing the book I know like a couple years ago, I said it was gonna be the year of starch.
+
+[50:47] But I have read in the past four days, maybe one thousand five hundred pages on starch. I mean skimmed. I wouldn't say I deeply read them. You know what I mean? But uh, yeah.
+
+[50:59] Anyway. Uh all right. Well, how do we even get into this? Oh, shrimp. Overcooked shrimp and overcooked, and Nastasi doesn't like scallops because she ate too many.
+
+[51:07] And John really hates an overcooked scallop. Is it just it makes you sad, or do you actually can't stand the taste of it? It makes me sad. It's probably my favorite shellfish. Sochered like that, yeah.
+
+[51:17] It was never fun. Huh. Do you like dried scallops shaved over things? I don't know if I've ever had that. I've had I don't know.
+
+[51:28] I have dried scallops here to like make XOS, but I've never tried just shaving them. So I feel that was another big thing like like eight years ago. Everyone was like, everyone was like, well, but target is good. What if I just shave this dried scallop? Remember that?
+
+[51:44] James, you were backing me up on this? That was like a thing, right? Or no? I don't I don't remember I don't remember that. No.
+
+[51:51] Who was doing who was doing that? I don't know. I still things that was in the air, you know? In the air that night. You know, it's one of those things.
+
+[51:59] It was just a round. You know what I mean? It's like I think it was a combination of that and then like Chang on the what was it, the PBS chef show where he was trying to do like different types of katsuabushi and shaving different things on the foods. I think that probably he did the pork bushy. Yeah, that was his thing, the pork bushy.
+
+[52:17] Did um by the way, let's talk batarga for a second. Like, don't like. Um, for those of you that don't know, by the way, out there, Batarga is you take like uh my I get I can't remember whether it's classically mullet or it's now mullet. It used to be something. I can't remember.
+
+[52:34] But you take the rose sack, you salt it, you dry it, and then you you do or do not, depending on how you feel, coat it in wax, and then you sell it for a buttload of money, and then you slice it thin or grate it over pasta. That's what we're talking about. All right, go. Yeah, actually, so uh we have an excess of uh mullet here in Pensacola. So um I mean people with mullets or mullet the fish?
+
+[52:59] Both. Both. Um there's actually there's the there's a mullet festival uh and and the interstate mullet toss. The fish, the f the fish. Again, both.
+
+[53:11] Um wait. Are you talking about the you're talking about the fish toss? Is that what you said? Yeah, yeah. Mullet toss on a down the Florida state line.
+
+[53:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard that they still had that. Uh no social distancing report. No. So like uh aside from the mad problematic.
+
+[53:30] Aside from that problematic fact, uh what what are you doing tossing the fish? Like what do you but like why would you toss it? So it's it's literally who can throw a dead mullet the furthest down the beach. And what's the answer? How far can you throw one?
+
+[53:45] Like roughly. I mean year to year. I I I've actually never been out for it because I'm a little uh afraid uh of the whole scene. But um it's a big it's a big thing. Yeah, I don't know.
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+[53:56] I mean are we talking like a like a f like a f yeah, are we talking like like 40 foot? We talking like a hundred foot? Is it discus style? Like what's the best technique? Is it like an overhand tail grasping?
+
+[54:07] Yeah, most people I I've seen are are going, you know, overhand. I I think it's it's too small really to go for like the discus spin on it. You know, I think you you if it were a bigger fish, if we were like throwing, you know, bonita or something, I I I would see the uh discus being the way to go. But yeah, there's a straight overhand. Are you allowed to use a paper towel to get a good grip?
+
+[54:27] I think not. I my understanding is that it's like slippery and that is part of the challenge. I see. Do people cheat and like rub the fish in the sand first to get it a little weird you know, like a little chalk on their hand or field trip is all I gotta say. Yeah.
+
+[54:44] Next next year live live from the mullet toss. I don't know that uh I'd necessarily be welcome because I'd be asking all of these questions to someone whose only desire is to throw a fish, and I feel like maybe they wouldn't like me so much there. Um just to guess. All right, so mullet toss, mullet botarga, go. Yeah, um personally I'm not a huge fan of of the botarga.
+
+[55:12] Um, but I do appreciate it. Like we we we make it. Uh we make it at the restaurant. Um and use it occasionally. Wax dip or no wax dip.
+
+[55:19] Do you or do you not wax it and then vacuum it? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We just vacuum but once they're done, we pull them out, vacuum them. Um the wax is just another pain in the ass to take off of it later, right?
+
+[55:30] Yeah. Yeah, and if you can vacuum I mean, the whole point of the wax, like obviously historically was just to seal it up. Um and if you can do that with a you know, in a vacuum, then why bother? Um but actually, you know, my favorite use of that was we were um doing like a you know, uh a quote uh I mean it is whatever, it's a Caesar salad. Um but instead of egg yolk, we were using botarga and it was like a you know a broken anchovy vinaigrette with a little shaved botarga um tossed sandwich.
+
+[55:56] You gotta you gotta be really careful with that. It's gotta be just there's a there's a very fine tipping point, I think, on botarga and uh dish. Yeah, I'm with you there. Like uh that's the thing, it's one of those things that like I really want to like more than I do. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[56:14] Like, I love the idea of it. I'm exactly on 100% right there. Yeah. Uh you know what it doesn't go well with? Wine.
+
+[56:14] Oh my god. Like that aftertaste, like you're like the batarga has just died down in your mouth. You know that like same thing with like um like overly cured country ham, which I love. Uh which that's not something I want to love. That's something I love and have eaten a lot of.
+
+[56:35] But like a lot of wines, right after you the ham goes down, when you take that sip of wine, you're like, oh damn. I wish that. And botarga is even more like that. It's like that, like, in the back of your throat. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:49] Yeah, you know who does botarga really well? Missy. No. No. No.
+
+[56:57] Oh, they they've got a uh uh a ravi of the of their little okey or actually like boutoni. Um you know, little tiny round ravioli um that would that are finished with just a little bit of shade of botarga. It's are they making the botarga? Because I think most of it's probably just overcured, is why I don't I I'm wondering whether there is a botarga that I love love love. Yeah, I don't I don't know if they make it if they make it or they're you know bringing it in from Italy.
+
+[57:22] Nastasia, you have feelings on botarga or no? Yeah, I feel the same way. Like, yeah, I wish I liked it, but I I just don't really like it that much. Okay, and then let's go even more. What are your feelings?
+
+[57:33] I know you love caviar, right? So you're not anti-roe. Nastasia loves caviar. If any of you want to send Nastasia a caviar, go ahead. She will eat it.
+
+[57:41] Am I wrong about that? No. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on uncured cooked roe like shad row in a pan? I will eat it.
+
+[57:52] But you don't love it. No. Do you? Again, I have loved it in the past, but I think it was mainly because I was kind of like, you know, this is decades ago, kind of rediscovering something that, you know, was part of, you know, because you don't think of like this area having any culture at all of its own, right? Like New England does, and you know, obviously the South does, uh, you know, and like, you know, Maryland, Mid Atlantic does, but like, you know, you're around here, you know, you're not thinking of, you know, anything, but like, you know, shad, shad row, you know, bake bacon and shad row, you know, uh, is something that, you know, has always been from around here, not only from around here, but something that's from around here.
+
+[58:37] So I really wanted to like, you know, love it, you know, because no one loves Manhattan clam chowder, right? Is there one human being on earth who would rather have Manhattan clam chowder than real clam chowder? I don't know. No. No, not one.
+
+[58:51] Not one human being. Like, why would our great city put its name on such a sack of filth? And a New York strip steak doesn't really come from here. I don't know how we're even trying to claim that stuff, and it's not even my favorite steak, right? So I really wanted to like be like, I don't know, but then it's just it's just okay.
+
+[59:10] It's just fine. You know what I mean? It's like it doesn't have like enough of a flavor other than the bacon for me to love it. It pops a lot, and then when it's overcooked, it's dry and and grainy. I don't know.
+
+[59:22] So I don't know. Anyone else had like a life ending shad row? Now, shad the fish, my one of my favorite fish of all time. One of my favorite fish to eat, but very hard to bone. But whatever.
+
+[59:34] I missed the season this year. It made me sad because of the COVID. I mean, that's not obviously that's the smallest of the problems that we had, but um, anyway. And you guys like shad? None of you guys have ever eaten a lot of shad.
+
+[59:44] I know, I mean, I don't know about you, James, but I know that I've asked Nastasia and John this a lot, and they haven't pounded a lot of shad fish. You know, we used to do uh when I was with with Frank Stitt at Highlands Bar and Grill uh in Birmingham, we used to do shad row in season when we had it, and um no, but we never bothered with the fish because it's exactly what you said, it's just so damn so damn bony. So, like to serve that in a restaurant is is tough. You know, I think like if you're eating it at home, you're gonna deal with the bones, it's fine, but you know, trying to serve serve shad in a restaurant is a is a really difficult undertaking. Well, like up here, like along the Connecticut River and a bunch of other, you know, places that go up, you know, traditionally there would be shad houses, right?
+
+[1:00:27] And there's still a couple along the Connecticut up, you know. If you go, you know, if you know Connecticut at all, if you go old Saybrook is where uh the Connecticut River hits, and you go up like I don't know, 15, 20 miles to Haddam, there's a bridge near there, and you can still see on the side of the road, because there's a road that runs right along the river, like some of these old shad shacks. People would s set up for when the runs came, these uh shad uh shacks, and they would do like once a year they would do do the stuff. And there, as of you know, two years ago, there were still like a couple of old timers who knew how to bone shad properly. But shad, and I said this on the show before, but you know, just in case, it has an extra set of Y bones.
+
+[1:01:12] And so um the one lady who used to bring it to the store where I used to get it, um, you know, they would catch it in the Connecticut and then she would bone it and bring it to the store. Is they just have this way with the fillet knife that they can stay just I don't know, they're one with the shad, and they have this thing where they cut into the filet, remove this Y-bone in one shot, right? And then hand you something that looks like a fillet. But if you put your hand, so if you if it if you if you drape it, if you take the skin and you curl it towards you so that you're compressing the flesh, it looks like one fillet. But if you go the other way and bend the flesh out, blend the skin out, the flesh just like looks like it's coming apart into leaves because of the how the way this lady does it.
+
+[1:01:58] But she's fast. There is a fast way to do it. Uh and it's like big and oily and good, which is like you don't usually get all of that. And I think it's more delicate than a bluefish, but like has the oil in it. And I love bluefish, so I'm not saying delicate meaning that bluefish is not good, but I just think it's a great fish.
+
+[1:02:15] It's one of those fish that is good to grill because you can hammer the hell out of it and it still tastes good. You know what I mean? But unlike a skate, it'll hold together on a grill. Like a skate you could hammer the hell out of, but I want to hammer the hell out of a skate in the pan, not on a grill. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[1:02:30] Yeah, and I think that's you know, the oil, that's the tricky, that's the tricky thing about shad, and I mean it is it is you know, a very, very you gotta have a quick turnaround for nothing coming out of the water to get on the grill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, uh, what other fish are good hammers? Yeah, most of them. We gotta bounce fairly soon if you have any last pressing question.
+
+[1:02:50] Alright, so uh this what do you say, Sus? More promotions. Alright, hold on. I got a question in. We have a bunch of questions that weren't specifically for James.
+
+[1:03:00] Were any of the ones in that people sent via email for James, John? Nope. All right. So I have one from the Twitter. Uh this is from uh Pavlo Pavlovsky.
+
+[1:03:09] Writes in uh, and you you saw this too, James, about uh uh at least you're tagged on it. Yeah. Hey Dave and the rest of the gang love the show. My question the idea of pairing foods based on sharing some molecules, isn't that the definition of redundant? Are there other concepts to pair from?
+
+[1:03:26] So I thought I give you, like I'd read that, and we've talked about this a little bit, but I give you some time to uh uh respond specifically to uh to that, and which, you know, you go. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the um, I mean, well, so for so first of all, we have which we did sort of you know touch on before. Um, is it redundant? It can be, but it it you know, is it necessarily no? Because I think you know, when you're really looking at the full makeup of an ingredient, um, you're you're getting that look below the surface, right?
+
+[1:04:00] I mean, there's so much happening in, you know, a strawberry, um, you know, that is that is below the threshold necessarily that we would uh you know perceive um just by biting into a strawberry. Um so you're seeing kind of you know a lot more there that leads to some connections, you know, that you might otherwise I mean, you know, one of the I mean first of all, like strawberry, you're talking about 400 different compounds that come together to make that flavor. You can't pick out all 400, you know, all 400 of those uh, you know, without without getting into um the science and and the data of it. And you know, one of the most prominent ones is is mesafurane, which is which smells like you know a croissant, smells like buttered toast. Um, you know, you don't you don't really perceive that in a strawberry, but why is frickin' toast and strawberry jam so damn good?
+
+[1:04:51] I mean, that's part of it, but then, you know, um I mean that's I think that's it's again it's just one phase. It's it's one phase of it of it. And like we talked about before, it's like a great spot for you know inspiration, and you kind of hopefully see a connection. Hey, hey, these two is ingredients. Hey, they've got something going on there.
+
+[1:05:08] What can we do? How can we build off of that? Um, so you know, flavor, the yeah, I mean, flavor is is where most pairing does come from. Um taste, yeah, of course, is is gonna be the other part salty, sweet, you know, fatty acidic, spicy, sour. Um, you know, you I think you know you're looking, you're looking at those things, but uh, you know, I don't think any no no good dish is built on just one of those things.
+
+[1:05:34] You know, it's it's always gonna be about sort of the the combination and the interplay of of everything you've got going on. Mesofurane sounds like an Eric B and Rakim song, does it not? Kind of sounds like microphone fury. Anyway, uh yes, I think that is a I think that is a good response. Let me just knock this out real quick because we did get a response on this.
+
+[1:05:55] Uh our friend Quinn from Vancouver Island, who uh does a lot of interesting cooking. Check out uh what's his uh what's his uh Instagram there, Q Dragon Stas? Uh yes. Yeah. And uh and Michael uh Kunz both asked, uh, what about using Koji, uh, which we've spoken about for uh clarification instead of standard pectanex enzymes.
+
+[1:06:16] I got in touch with Rich uh She and he said um it's uh our cook quest on Instagram, and he said that he hasn't really tried it, but he thinks probably commercial preparations are uh stronger in terms of their um pectinase uh ability. And then John got in touch with Jeremy Omansky. Uh and what was what was the response there? Jeremy says it does produce pectinase, but in very small quantities, you're better off using pectinics. Alright, so there you go.
+
+[1:06:41] Those are from the two uh Koji masters and Stas, you wanna do some promotion? Uh buy our boxes. Wow. That's a strong statement. Yeah, buy our boxes.
+
+[1:06:53] All right. Uh where where are they gonna go? They're gonna go on Booker and Dax.com or they're gonna go on to uh uh bend to table Dax or bend to table. And also um if you wanna come on the show, go on our auction site. What are we auctioning off?
+
+[1:07:10] A spot on our show, Dave. Well, I mean, why don't you describe the auction so that they know what to do? They get to come on the show in Los Angeles in an unclosed location and Jack being on the with you, but socially distanced from you. They have to have a COVID test. If if they auction or if they're the winner, they have to have a COVID test within two days of the show.
+
+[1:07:32] Um Right. But specifically, Matt and John and I will be on this coast and you will be there, and then they will be near where you are. They will be able to do that. And they will be the only people who know your undisclosed location. Yeah, for that day, and then I move.
+
+[1:07:45] Um, you're doing on the last day that you're there. Very strong. And Jackie molecules will be there. Maybe Phil Bravo and his ukulele and who knows who else. Oh my god, the weakest of all instruments.
+
+[1:07:57] No, right, the recorder's the weakest of all. Why does the man like a weak instrument? Yeah, he no, he sent me some good ukulele music. So I'm not hating on all ukulele music. I'm just saying that like maybe it's the fact that I grew up listening to Tiny Tim playing ukulele that poisoned me to the idea of ukulele.
+
+[1:08:13] Maybe that's what it is. Stas, are you gonna perform piano for these people? Am I gonna what? Are you gonna perform the piano for these for these fine folks? If they No, I don't think so.
+
+[1:08:24] But there will be What if they pay extra bagels? Also, our newsletter, I just informed uh was sent out with the subject line. A great subject line gives your audience a reason to open your email. So strong. You know what?
+
+[1:08:39] I like that. That checks out. That sounds like us. But you should sign up for our email because in this one they only put my like a small smattering of my loves and hates on. It's supposed to have all of us, but I'm sure you know Dave, as we're looking at the thing, your loves and hates are the most opened links in the Yeah, but I'm sure that they would also open your loves and hates.
+
+[1:09:00] The gun, the gun is the most open link by like 90%. Everybody wants to shoot flies. Do you know anyone who's like, you know what? Like, I really want to like smash uh I want to smash that fly with my book. No.
+
+[1:09:18] Or I wanna like put a big mark on my wall with a book. No, or like I I'm gonna miss that fly and run around like an idiot. No, they want to blast that thing out of the sky with table salt. It is just a good idea. I think that guy's from Florida, in fact, the bug assault guy.
+
+[1:09:31] The gun is called bug assault, which eh well, problematic name, but it it it doesn't look like a real I mean it looks kind of like a real gun, but it's bright yellow, and you put table salt in it, and then you rack it like a like a Mossberg, and then you bam, and it just shoots this like tiny like pulse of salt out. Not like in the old days when you like took your real shotgun and filled it with rock salt so that you could like you know scare someone off of your porch. We're talking like tiny little burst of table salt that you know has the effective range of like three feet. Anyways. Do you know about this one, James?
+
+[1:10:05] I do. I do know all about the bug assault. I I I've got a couple friends at home. They love them. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:10:10] We're shooting bugs. Do you have Palmetto bugs up as far north as you or no? Yeah, um, not, yeah. Yeah, we do. They're not um everywhere, but we certainly see them.
+
+[1:10:22] God, I hate Palmetto Bugs. God, I hate Palmetto bugs. Yes, Nastasia? A great subject line gives your audience a reason to open your email. Yeah, yeah, it does.
+
+[1:10:34] And again, this checks out that that is we should just have that always be the that should always be it, along with the poem. That should always just be there. Until somebody unseats and give. So aside from getting us a poem that could unseat the poem, uh, the poem of all poems. Perhaps you guys can think of a subject line that will unseat uh our subject line.
+
+[1:10:56] But for our newsletter and more goodness uh like that, um, yeah, I I guarantee you no one was clicking on the links of what I'm reading. Uh no, I think those are the next rad things, too. Oh, geez Louise. All right. Well, listen, uh James, your new book is Flavor for All.
+
+[1:11:16] Uh James Bushone, Flavor for All with uh Brooke Parkhurst. Um go visit their restaurant in Pensacola. You want to push out the name of the restaurant again? Angelinas. Angelina's restaurante italiano.
+
+[1:11:29] And what's the name again for about? Is it because of the the the uh the song? Zoom zoom. Oh, no, no. So actually Angelina was um an Italian immigrant who uh came in through the port of New Orleans in the very late 1800s and and settled here in Pensacola in the very early 1900s and um opened one of the first uh produce markets in downtown Pensacola.
+
+[1:11:52] Oh, nice. But you're familiar with the Louis Primus song, though, right? Of course. Yeah, yeah. It's a great song.
+
+[1:11:58] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I like Louis Prima. I don't know about you guys, but I like Louis Prima. I don't like him quite as much as I love uh Big Night, which is I think my in my top two or three favorite uh food movies of all time. What about Nastasi?
+
+[1:12:16] You're gonna be able to do that. I really wanted to I really wanted to do a screening of Big Knight with his staff before we opened, but um we didn't get to it. No, we weren't able to pull that off. Make it make it make it. Nastasi and I say that to each other.
+
+[1:12:28] Dax says that to me all the time. It's a starch, it's a starch. Make it make it. We always just say, yeah, it's a great movie. For any of you who haven't seen that movie, it's probably gotta be on Netflix or something like this, right?
+
+[1:12:41] That is like that is some good Tucci and some good shalub. You know what I mean? That's some strong shalub in that. Anyway. Uh John, you like that movie, right?
+
+[1:12:52] Have not seen it. What? Oh because of your whole because of you pushing it so hard. I watched it towards the beginning of the pandemic. It was quite good.
+
+[1:13:02] Also, Tucci wrote it, right? I think so. He's a food guy. I know he's a food guy. Yeah.
+
+[1:13:10] Yeah. I can't believe, John, that you haven't seen it. This is your like, you know, I feel like you should see it. Nastasi, don't you feel like you should see it? Yeah.
+
+[1:13:19] Yeah. How's he gonna relate to us if he hasn't seen it? I mean, I feel like if Booker and Dax had in a physical office space, it should just be on like loop. Well, for a while, Nastasi and I would have had the uh Nastasi is a fan of Alec Baldwin. Let me just say this.
+
+[1:13:35] And uh, so like, you know, we would occasionally just watch the Glengarry Glenn Ross monologue over and over again. Um, have you seen his he's you know he's hosting a game show now, Nastasi? Did you know that? Yeah, my parents won. Was it good?
+
+[1:13:44] I told you. Oh my god. Did you watch it? I'm watching Leslie Jones on uh on uh supermarket sweep. It's that's good, that's good pandemic watch there.
+
+[1:14:01] You get you get some Leslie Jones, you get uh to see people in a supermarket without masks. It's uh it's phenomenal. All right. Uh well, uh James, thanks for uh coming on the show. Flavor for All is in a uh you know, any fine bookseller uh near you.
+
+[1:14:17] If you want to eat at the restaurant, you got to go to Pensacola, right? Yes, that's it, man. Thanks. It was always fun. All right, cool.
+
+[1:14:24] Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:14:47] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:15:10] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal, helping you to enjoy your fruits and vegetables at peak freshness and reduce food waste. Learn more at appeal.com, APEL.com. This week on Meet and Three, we're spotlighting the people, dishes, and ingredients decolonizing food. We're looking at our Thanksgiving plates and beyond to explore efforts to reclaim food sovereignty in Native American culture, the African diaspora, and Puerto Rico. I believe that oisted dressing is like the consummate side dish for an amazing fried turkey.
+
+[0:36] What we're doing there is just working the land and we're laughing and we're creating a space for joy. And it's in that that healing occurs for us. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dave Arland, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live, sort of. I mean, I'm sort of live, I'm sort of in a mood.
+
+[1:09] From the Lowery side of Manhattan, we got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez joining us from an undisclosed location in Southern California. We got John from Customer Service up in the great nutmeg state of Connecticut and Matt in his hidey hole booth in Rhode Island. Was that all accurate, folks? Yes. Yep.
+
+[1:27] Nastasia, do you move every like 24 hours as though you were a CIA agent? Or I'm almost in my permanent place in a week. Wait, what? You're almost at what? A new place.
+
+[1:41] Oh, yeah. Yeah, she's uh, yeah, she's like Because my my original place cancelled on me like two days before I landed, so I've had to, you know, finding it. Yeah, which unbelievably is something that Airbnb is allows to happen. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, because they're like, we find you another place that's comparable, and when you're as picky as me, it's like no.
+
+[1:59] Also, I booked it back in like late August. So also, like so picky, you want a bathroom inside. So picky. Indoor bathroom, indoor plumbing, so picky. Yeah, your first place that they found that was comparable.
+
+[2:16] Had you had to walk like a block in the desert to a bathroom. Yeah. Did it have toilet paper in the outhouse? Was there water in the outhouse? It was a really nice, no, it was a really nice nice.
+
+[2:28] So you weren't you weren't pooping on coconut. But I was in a canyon, so there's like owls hooting and coyotes doing their thing and that sounds great. You know what Nastasia doesn't want when she's in the bathroom? Coyotes. Coyotes poking their head up to another house.
+
+[2:44] So instead, oh, there was there was a shower in my place, so I would just squat over the shower drain during. Wow, that's a lot of information. That is a lot of information. That's yeah. Yeah, so this is our Thanksgiving episode.
+
+[3:00] That's all give thanks for the year that it's almost over. Let's give thanks that this year is almost over. But it will end. Yeah, it will end. But that's what I don't like.
+
+[3:10] It's not like 2021 is gonna be better. It's not like when you roll over to a new year, everyone's like the year knows it's supposed to be better. It's just another day into a day. You know, it but it just so happens that like you know, a lot of things like are hopefully coming to a head. I mean, you're right, it's coincidental, so we shouldn't focus it around the year, right?
+
+[3:32] That's like how believing in the horoscope, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, you're right. You're 100% right. But like, listen, just don't take this away from me, Nastasia.
+
+[3:39] There's no idea you're right. You gotta give him 2021. You can't take 2021 away from. Yeah, you're you're right. But you know what I mean?
+
+[3:48] Like, oh, January 21st. That's true. Yeah, not a political show, yeah. No, it is a political. Hey, also a fan of the show, listen.
+
+[3:57] This is just because you're depressed because you've been in like isolation for like eight months doesn't change what we've been doing for 10 years. I'm not that it is political in this school. All I'm saying is I am happy about January 20th, and I will never support Trump, and I want to make that very clear. You guys can say whatever you want. Of course, of course.
+
+[4:15] But the show's not about that. Listen, okay. Someone can cook something and be interested in like technical cooking and like what we're doing, like, like regardless of what they believe outside of that fact. So, like, there is no reason to alienate people. What?
+
+[4:32] Okay. Well, what? Human rights, human rights and we and I'll say that all day. Like, certain things are not moral issues, right? Like, here's the thing.
+
+[4:41] Like, I don't believe that the vast majority uh the effect of what like people who support Trump does is a lot of human rights abuse. But if you were to have a conversation with them, do they believe that people's rights should be abused and that kids should be separated from their parents? They would say no. They would say no. So then the question is, how do you have a reasonable conversation with that person, right?
+
+[5:03] And it isn't by like driving them off into their own echo chamber or retreating to your own echo echo chamber, especially when we're here to talk about how to cook turkeys. That's all I'm saying. All right, get into this ears all because let's get it. So the the, you know, look, Amazon, who like let me put it to you this way their hands are so far up our butts that when they're when they have to like you know itch their hand our mouths move let's just put it that way their hands will be eating our turkey this Thanksgiving Yeah that's right that's right their puppet hands will be eating all of our turkey good news is we can eat a lot because they'll just snarf it down because that's how far their hands up are our backsides now some person do you even know the name of this person? Can we call them out?
+
+[5:53] No, it's can we can we dox them? What? No, it's it's a fake name. It's a fake name. All right, all right.
+
+[5:59] It's uh doxing's bad. I'm sorry I said that. Yeah, I was just gonna do that. I'm sorry I said I'm angry, Matt. I'm angry, man.
+
+[6:08] Can't you cut me some slack? I'm angry. A guy's allowed to get angry. Yeah. And I I already apologized.
+
+[6:15] Not even 30 seconds after I said it, I apologized. If I did know who this guy's name was, though, I would plaster him. It's a woman, actually. So it says. So it says.
+
+[6:27] So we've been selling this thing. Maybe you've heard of it. It's called a steerzole. We've been selling it for what now, six years, Nastasia, something like this. War on the thing.
+
+[6:36] On the order of, I don't know. No, I was looking at the documents. I think it's like 2014 or something like this. Okay. All right.
+
+[6:42] So we've been selling this thing. Uh what do you attach it to, Nastasia? Did blowtorch. To a blowtorch. Yes.
+
+[6:49] Right. But the blowtorch has a big old flame on it, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a torch, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[6:55] It's got a flame on it. Yes. Yeah, okay. And uh, so you would expect there to be some fire involved, right? Yeah.
+
+[7:02] I mean, it's not like uh it's not like uh some sort of like uh like torch knot, right? It's not like a like a cap that you add to your torch that turns it into a paperweight that's not a torch anymore, right? It it's meant to like have flame in it. All right. So we're clear, that's what we sell for a living and have sold, right?
+
+[7:23] For six years, right? And by the way, we as a company are extremely safety conscious. We have spent so much money on our products to make them as as safe as we can, considering that it's dangerous because it's fire, right? But within that parameter, right? Make it as safe as you can.
+
+[7:43] Same with the centrifuge, right? We we've lost so much money because we won't do projects that we don't think are safe, etc. etc. Is that right or wrong, Stas? Yeah, right.
+
+[7:52] So, you want to read the quote unquote complaint? Oh, geez. Um, yeah. So last night I got a complaint that Amazon forwarded to me. And it hold on, I forwarded it to so many people that I need to okay.
+
+[8:08] It is funky smell coming from the head unit, wire mesh is already bubbling. It stays on fire after the unit has been turned off. Almost dangerous. Actually, that should be our poem of the month for the newsletter. Almost dangerous.
+
+[8:21] I don't know that we want to look. Can we have two poems of the month? Yeah, we can do whatever we want. All right. Uh now listen.
+
+[8:31] First of all, first of all, uh, I'm just thinking about the poem of the month now. Do you have Kompachi there? I need to be calmed down. John, can you call up the newsletter and read it? Because I just need to be, I need to be calmed down.
+
+[8:46] So as a result of this complaint, which I will go into in a second, Amazon unilaterally removed Searsols from Amazon. And they're the only ones that purchased them. And they're the only ones that purchase them. They own them all. They removed them.
+
+[8:59] But here's the fun part. The knockoffs, the actual unsafe knockoffs that are being sold by people who are infringing our patent. Can you still buy those, Nastasia? Oh yes. Any iteration of the knockoff is available.
+
+[9:15] Any. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
+
+[9:19] And they also somehow preemptively also took the spinzall ASIN offline, even though we're out of stock because we're trying to get a factory to build more. We're more on that later. We just sent off the new model to China for them to work on. The entire country. When we say China, just China gets it, right?
+
+[9:38] Our factory in China. We have one factory in China. So, you know. Sorry, I'm shorthanding our factory in China. But it is true, we have the entire country working on the problem.
+
+[9:49] So it's crazy that we can't get it done. Yeah. Because the whole country is working nonstop on it. So they they send this thing. They they they turned off the they turned off the sales of the sp.
+
+[10:03] But it's not like people buy things right after Thanksgiving, right, Stas? Yeah. It's like the slowest purchasing time of the year. Also, like they get this one like complaint, which who knows, generated by a bot by like, you know, Russian troll farms or whatever. And not that I wish Russian troll farms cared about us.
+
+[10:22] They don't. Uh speaking of Nastasia, are you familiar with the Ukrainian carved candle as part of your heritage? What did you grow up with those carved candles? Yeah. Multicolor?
+
+[10:30] Yeah, yeah. What do you think? Uh, I thought they were pretty as a kid. I haven't seen one in a long time. But back to it.
+
+[10:37] Jen and I went Jen and I, my wife, Jen and I went into a deep YouTube hole yesterday watching Ukrainian people carving the multicolored candles. And we were like both ugly and awesome at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Like we kind of want them, but like they take a long time to show up.
+
+[10:54] Isn't there a bunch of Ukrainian stuff in uh East Village? No, I hadn't thought about that. That's true. But like if you go on Etsy, because this is an Etsy sort of thing, if you go on Etsy, there's all these people, Gandals by Yuri. There's like literally candles by Yuri.
+
+[11:09] But it takes, he like, you order one, you tell him what colors you want, and then Yuri sits there and carves them, and he sends them to you in like six weeks. Or it takes them like a week to make it, and then like, you know, eight years to show up from the Ukraine. Anyway. It's not some sort of fake thing. It's legit.
+
+[11:24] Yeah, it's legit. Star shaped and then cut with the things with the petals and the stuff. Maybe get your mom to post a picture of the candles if she still has any. Did you burn them? Uh I don't think we ever burned it now.
+
+[11:39] Jen and I decided that if we get them, we're gonna burn them. If you had them, would you burn them? I think so, yeah. The reason I mention this, remind me candles later. Uh anyway.
+
+[11:50] What? Sears all Amazon. So, yeah, so they took it off. So this person who we don't know, we can't verify. Yeah, one person, one person emails Amazon and sends them this like three sentence thing barely, and they like shut down our whole thing.
+
+[12:05] I email them constantly for a million different things, and they're like, you're just gonna have to wait. Yeah, well, this is like the first day we ever were gonna sell the Sears all. Yeah. We added they they like right on like Thanksgiving, literally on Thanksgiving, right before we were about to flip the switch, they flagged the word fire in our description because we had updated a description, so they flagged it. And remember, they took us off sale for like they took us off sales, so we had to do all of those original Black Friday sales on our own account because Amazon would no longer sell it.
+
+[12:37] Do you remember that? Yep. Yeah, that cost us many thousands of dollars. So these bots, right? So a bot, not a human, is probably responding to this.
+
+[12:46] What that means is now a human has to look at it, and guess what the humans at Amazon don't? Care. Care. The humans at Amazon don't care at all. So only God knows when Sears all will be available again.
+
+[13:04] But where are they available? They're available on Ben to Table.com. But there's not that many of them. Uh yeah, but literally, there's like a handful. So if you really want to Sears all for Christmas, you gotta buy the gift box.
+
+[13:19] Don't email me saying you don't want the gift box. You want a Sears all, you gotta get the gift box. Yeah, you know, maybe they'll turn it back on. Who knows? Who knows?
+
+[13:27] Uh but anyway, so here's the the the complaint was makes a funky smell. John, what is the instruction manual say? To burn off the organic coating that's on the inside for two minutes by holding the search all screen per or uh parallel to the ground or whatever it is you're gonna be searing and then burn it off for two minutes. Then what might happen during that time? What will happen during that time?
+
+[13:51] A little bit of funky smell and a little bit of flame. Yeah. In the instructions! Yep. In the instructions!
+
+[13:59] And then, so if you don't sear it for the full two minutes, there's still organic binder in there. Which means if you turn it off, hey folks, what does the organic binder continue to do? Burn, burn off and smell. Burn with with what kind of smell, Matt? Oh, I would say a funky smell.
+
+[14:13] Funky smell. Yeah, but funky smell. The most frustrating thing about this whole thing is we don't even know if this person who complained is actually using our search or purchased our serzol. So it may not have come with instructions because it came from another factory that copied us and did it follow this here. Here's another thing.
+
+[14:38] Here's another thing. Screen was quote unquote bubbling. Now listen, folks, how do you even make a bubble on a fine wire mesh screen? I mean, it's not mozzarella on top of a pizza. It's not like a paint coating.
+
+[14:53] It's it it it's it's made of a single material, Canthol D, which has a melting point of roughly 1,300 C. Uh Seerzol face never gets above a thousand C. So what this person is saying is physically impossible. What actually happens when your screen fails isn't melting, it's oxidation. All right.
+
+[15:12] I'm just telling you, like, and this has been we've been testing this for years and years and years and years and years. So the fact that this person said that the screen was bubbling, right? Maybe they don't understand what a bubble is. Maybe like it's like I say, it's not soup. It's not, it's not like, oh, I I bought I brought my conthal screen to a rolling boil and it bubbled.
+
+[15:34] You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? If sh it it if if the person means that it bowed out a little bit, well, it's a little thing called expansion due to temperature change. Jerk! Anyway.
+
+[15:46] So very hard, you pegged it almost dangerous because the search all does look almost dangerous to me. Well, that's unhelpful, Matt. Yeah. But like I'm saying. There's fire.
+
+[15:58] There's fire involved. There's fire involved. It's a known thing with the fire. It's like, and we go through all this stuff. It's like if I sell you a knife, I'll be like, yo, sharp.
+
+[16:07] Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm selling you something to make your torch into a broiler with using flame. Yeah. Uses fire is stocks.
+
+[16:19] Still a torch. It's yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. So now, instead of working on what we should be working on, which is talking to, you know, like reading all the questions you find folks have sent us about what to do for your uh presumably micro Thanksgivings.
+
+[16:36] Um, you know, we've been like gathering documents trying to say that something that is used as an insulation in furnaces can't catch fire. I mean, it's like it's crazy. It's like what do you think? Any anything else to add? Well luckily, Van Groff is in the chat with a question about this if you'd like, or you can just ignore this one and go with something else.
+
+[17:04] No, no, no. Long time, long time uh follower there. What happens to all the inventory Amazon has? Have they even paid you for that yet? Oh, interesting question.
+
+[17:14] No. No, they have not. Apparently, they're paying us on Thursday of this week, like a portion. But what's Thursday, and what do you think is not gonna happen? Oh, geez, Louise.
+
+[17:26] Here's the thing, dude. Like, Amazon, Amazon has all these quote unquote teams. None of these teams have telephone numbers because they don't want you to reach them. In fact, you don't even get a direct email line to these team teams, teams. Most, many of these teams are not in the United States, so they don't care about our standard holidays.
+
+[17:47] But believe you me, right? If they see that it is a standard holiday, they're like, well, they're not going to be waiting for the check because it's a holiday. And our bank won't process it. Right. Right?
+
+[17:58] Right. Yeah. It's so. It's well planned. It's so well planned.
+
+[18:05] It's so well planned. Yeah, geez, Louise. They're like, oh yeah, we'll just uh reschedule this for uh December 25th. Yeah. Well, Anastasi, it's not like we don't need the money.
+
+[18:14] Right. Yeah. Uh uh. You want a quick question that's not about this? Sure.
+
+[18:27] 91Ax asks if you have any experience with the Vitamix E310 because he's got a chance to get it pretty cheap this week. I'll look it up. The Vitamix E310. What are the things about it? Like what makes it different from any stuff?
+
+[18:43] It's just smaller. Um also in case it's good, what are some good things to do with a new Vitamix? Is it the same motor? Uh doesn't specify. First of all, like I'm a fan of dumb names, but check this out.
+
+[19:02] The Vitamix Vitamix E310 Exploring Blender. What does Exploring mean? Sounds like a power source on Star Trek. It does. It does kind of.
+
+[19:16] I'm looking at a picture of it. The question is really uh two horsepower. Yeah, I mean, look, what does that even what does that really mean? Does it mean 1400 watts? Let me tell it to you this way.
+
+[19:29] It does mean 1400 watts, 1200 to 1400 watts. Yeah, so like a horsepower is I forget exactly 750 something watts, right? That's what a horsepower is. So anytime someone sells you something that you're gonna and uh plug into the wall, and they say that it's like you know, eight billion horsepower, like vacuum cleaners used to say this. Like, ask yourself, how many amps can you really suck out of the wall?
+
+[19:55] How much power can you really suck out of the wall? And the answer is out of a regular non-dedicated plug, like most appliances try to stay at 1500 watts or below, and uh, you know, which is uh about two horsepower, and uh certain things like induction burners can go up to like 1750 or 1800, but anything over that, and you're getting close to tripping um circuits on the regular, and so they they don't like to do it. So if you were to just do a little math here, 120 volts uh times, assuming that we're working on 120 volt standard and you're not calling it 115 or 125, and let's say you're in a 15 amp circuit, then the maximum possible wattage you could take out of that circuit would be 1800 watts. And anything over than that, anything larger than that would not be allowable in a uh standard non-20 amp dedicated plug, right? So unless it in vitamin Vitamixes, Vitapeps, or whatever you're gonna call them, they don't take standard, they don't take 20 uh amp dedicated plugs.
+
+[21:01] Any of the higher ampereage stuff requires a 20 amp dedicated plug, and because UL is gonna force you to go 10% power over under, right? They're not even gonna allow you to probably get all the way to 1800 before they're going to start getting pissed off about blowing the 15 amps. Alright. So that's like the maximum, that's like about the maximum you can do. Let's divide 1800 by 750, which it's roughly what a horsepower is.
+
+[21:27] And the magical answer is 2.4. So in reality, no one's actually going to suck more than 2.4 amps out of a wall, uh 2.4 uh horsepower out of a wall for a blender. Now Vitapep, I forget the name of it, I'll find it, you know, someday. But Vitapep actually does a fairly decent job about not lying about their blender power. I gotta give them that, right?
+
+[21:49] As opposed to a lot of other people, like like all the stick blenders, the all lies, right? All complete lies. Uh, if you want to see how powerful a Vitapep can actually be, don't blend water in it. Blend like uh like maple syrup, something real thick. That is the like the one of the hardest things it can blend because it's thin enough that your blades can engage, but thick enough to give some real hardcore resistance, right?
+
+[22:15] Once you get too much thicker, you have things like starch and you start cavitating out, the blades start hitting error and the power actually goes down. Uh so the Vitapep actually will put out quite a bit of power. Um, I would just look at you know this the standard RPM. I have not tested that particular blender. I'm sure I'm sure it's fine.
+
+[22:36] I've been using the standard Vitapep for years. I don't have the three horsepower one, which again obviously is a lie. It's not gonna put out that for sustained periods of time. Um, but that's my two cents. I.e.
+
+[22:48] I don't know. But I tell you what, if you have standard countertops, the original Vitamix is a little bit too high, right? So you have to you can't store it fully assembled under your counter. So if it's smaller and that floats your boat, I think it's probably still gonna be a good blender, but I've never used it, so I can't personally recommend it. What good?
+
+[23:08] Good. Yeah. All right. Now, uh, have we said enough about how much uh Amazon is uh is uh pooping in our ice cream sundae. Don't don't poop in my ice cream sundae and tell me it's ice cream Amazon.
+
+[23:22] Don't do it. You know what I mean? It's like and buy from Ben to Table. Yeah, buy the three whatever. Yeah, it's like, you know, you know, I just can't, I just can't like for the number of times we're just a small company.
+
+[23:38] You're listening to the whole company. Say hello, company. Hello, hello. That's us. Why shaft us so hard?
+
+[23:45] You know what I'm saying? Yep. Uh speaking of companies having a tough time, everyone's having a tough time. But you familiar with the company Flying Tiger Anastasia? Mm-hmm.
+
+[23:56] They have that store, they're out of Denmark. Yeah, you know, Denmark, land of the land of the mink. We already talked about mink meat burgers, right? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[24:04] Uh that was my brilliant idea years ago. No one ever used it. I guess because no one wants to eat a mink uh burger. But anyway, so Denmark, the land of uh the COVID mink murder situation, um, has this company called Flying Tiger. There's only 13 stores in the US, they're closing them all, even though apparently this doors are popular in Europe.
+
+[24:23] Unbeknownst to us, Jen goes there and we buy things like candles because you know Jen likes candles. This is why we went into the candle hole Nastasia. So they had a sale literally everything in the store is 50 cents for going out of business sales. So it was, but they were only because they're social distancing, only 10 people are allowed in the store. So it was an hour and a half wait to get into the store, Nastasia.
+
+[24:43] So what does that mean for me? Um I don't know. Yes, you you know me a long time. What does that mean for me? For you, hour and a half.
+
+[24:53] I don't know. I really don't know, Dave. It means that uh as part of my get out plan, I had purchased a Kelty Tyoga frame backpack, which is by the way, frame backpacks, like they may look dumb, but they are freaking amazing. That's gonna be on our love list in the uh in the newsletter. So this frame backpack, which looks like you know, like a 1980s backpacker's dream with an external aluminum frame backpack.
+
+[25:18] I went in there and I bought uh 55 pounds worth of candles. In retrospect, I wish I had bought 75 pounds because biking home with 55 pounds of candles on my back and the Kelty Tyoga felt like nothing. I could easily have done 75. I feel like I could have done like 8500 pounds worth of candles in that thing. I stupidly bought a bunch of light stuff there, like you know, art supplies for the kids and stuff like that.
+
+[25:43] But the lady was like, This is a lot of wax. How you gonna get it home? It's like my problem, that's my problem, and got on the city bike and took that sucker home. Awesome. Love the Kelty.
+
+[25:51] So we have a lot of candles, and that's what put us in the candle holes, does. Okay. She's astounded. Yeah, yeah. But I figure she would have thought about that with me because she knows how like A, I don't like to wait, so if I do wait, I'm gonna put a ridiculous amount of stuff, and Nastasia also knows that if it can be placed on my back, it will go on my back.
+
+[26:13] Yes. Frame backpack, like the like an exoskeleton type thing. No, nothing that cool. Like hiking backpack normally has a metal. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
+
+[26:27] Imagine a 70-year old man with a beard down to his crotch and like and like a a canvas hat with like a big smile on his face, like marching around in Birkenstocks in a mountain. And the backpack that that guy is wearing is the one that I'm using. Oh. So the brand is frame. No, the brand's Tyoga.
+
+[26:48] No, sorry. The brand is Kel Kelty. You know Kelty, they make the baby backpacks. Like they in the 80s made the original like aluminum frame backpacks. Also, like little note, in the early, early 1980s, when frame backpacks became kind of cool, like uh uh like for hiking, like the small, very short, very chubby, super straight hair at the time, butt parted, like like right down the center of the head, butt part, giant photo gray glasses, uh that you know, once the 19 early 1980s uh like photo grays, like they instantly turned dark and never went light again.
+
+[27:27] That's how it worked. It's like they were they were clear exactly once. So that was me, right? Like with that ensemble was me. Giant buck teeth all crooked like Levalore blinds, and uh this giant frame backpack wearing a uh you know, a blazer, right?
+
+[27:46] But because it was me, it was all messy, like all the other kids had like, you know, all nicely like you know, I don't know, they had like four or five different kind of like school uniforms that they would wear. I had like the one blazer and like the pants. So that package with the frame backpack walking a mile and a half, like back and forth to school, that is why I am the way I am today. Or I should say I haven't changed much. Well, we talked about how we are the band that tunes our own basses on stage.
+
+[28:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Real bands, like they they hire, like the roadie sits there and tunes their stuff off stage and hands a real instrument to the band. We're that one who has to send them being like, I'm sorry, in between songs. That's us.
+
+[28:35] You know what I mean? And then you're like, it's good enough, just go. And then that whole sound song sounds off. You know what I mean? Because, like, you know, I'm like, you know, a quarter tone off on the on my on my bass note.
+
+[28:48] Anyway, uh Matt, you know what I'm talking about. Oh, I know what you're talking about. It's pretty embarrassing when it takes you far too long to tune a four-string, like basically never goes out of tune instrument on stage live. But you know, my ear was never that good, right? So, like the guitar, the guitarist was that the guitarist was that guy that would be playing, hear himself go slightly low while he was playing, and in the middle of the song would just do the micro tune while he was playing without even stopping.
+
+[29:14] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you know this. I'm not that guy. Yeah.
+
+[29:17] I mean, while to make matters worse, I had this bass that like would never go out of tune. So it was just I didn't even get that much practice. So really really couldn't do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and you know, and this was, I guess some people used to have there used to be these really, really cool tuners back in the day that were inline tuners, so they would have a wheel that would rotate, and um you could visually look because it worked, I I forget exactly, it would somehow spin at the rate that your thing was was working, and you could visually see while you were playing, based on like some optical trick that the wheel was doing on stage, what your tuning was.
+
+[29:54] Now I guess everyone just automatically has machines that tell them and they can probably pitch bend it as you're playing just to make it not sound terrible. But good old days. Good old days. Nastasia, we are gonna be carrying our own gear till we die. I hope not.
+
+[30:10] We are gonna be carrying our own gear till we die. That's for sure. This episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash.
+
+[30:28] We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Cause there's the thing: less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away.
+
+[30:46] It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system, from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal, food gone good. Learn more at Appeal.com.
+
+[31:08] Alright, uh, let me just say a couple of things about Thanksgiving. Uh so this is obviously not a normal Thanksgiving for most of us. We're cooking for you know, the vast majority of us are cooking for much smaller groups than uh we ever had. So then that begs the question: well, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do with all of the leftovers?
+
+[31:27] Because there are a lot of leftovers. I think you should plan in advance for how you're gonna deal with the leftovers and how you're gonna deal with like the fridge overload. One way is just to not cook as many things, but for me, anyway, there needs to be a like it there needs to be a minimum number of things for it to be Thanksgiving. Otherwise, just don't do it at all. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[31:45] Do you guys agree or disagree? Yeah. So it's like, um, oh my god, I thought this was because I'm only cooking for you know the two kids and Jen. Like, I was like, oh, we we're we we're not gonna have any, you know, I don't have to make multiple like dietary restriction things anyway, because you know, there's just only there's four of us. But it turns out uh I'm also making Thanksgiving dinner for uh the person who does security at the week because we found out that the guy who does security downstairs, obviously someone has to be working on Thanksgiving, but then he doesn't even have his parents to go home to.
+
+[32:19] So we're gonna bring him down a plate, socially distanced, of course. But of course, he has some dietary restrictions, so I still have to cook with dietary restrictions. Oh, yeah, I know me, me, me, me. Anyway, um, are you guys still doing turkeys? Yep.
+
+[32:32] Yeah, I'm gonna I'm doing a turkey. Uh the smallest turkey they had at my local mart was 20 pounds, though. I mean, I recommend doing a small turkey if you're gonna go small. Uh, if you're going to not do a full turkey, I would say get the get the the thigh leg and you know take out uh take out the bones and and and cook it that way. But if you're gonna do the whole turkey, um I would do what I've been doing, which is cut out the back, right?
+
+[32:58] Take out just the big interior bones, use that to make a stock, right? Because then the smaller bird, it's not just that it's um, it's not just that it's easier to carve and easier to cook, which it is, um, once it's been boned out like that, but um it's the stock is much easier to condense, especially if you make it before Thanksgiving. No one wants to take their cooked turkey carcass and make a stock after Thanksgiving. Am I right? You're spent, no?
+
+[33:27] You're spent, right? And then who has the time or who wants to sit there and hack a cooked turkey carcass up into chunks that are small enough to fit in your freezer, and then it's just gonna molder in your freezer. I highly recommend that you take the bones, you make uh like a like a quick pressure cooked stock beforehand. It's gonna clearly a turkey makes more than enough stock for its own gravy if you take the bones out. You then have gravy, and if you have any extra, you can save that.
+
+[33:55] It's much denser and easier to freeze. And then it's much easier at Thanksgiving time to take the turkey and cut it into pieces that can then be refrigerated slash frozen. Remember, if you're gonna freeze, put them in ziploc bags and get the air out of it. The way I do it on a Ziploc bag is I close it all the way down onto a straw, and I suck out the extra, only do this with your family, because obviously you're sucking on it with your with your mouth. Suck on the straw and then you know, put pinch your fingers around the straw at the last little bit, suck it and pull it out.
+
+[34:30] And this will get you like a decent seal on things that you're not gonna put liquids in, right? And freeze them flat. Um if you're going to wait for things to cool off before you put them in, not just because it'll ruin your freezer to put warm things in, but because as they're cooling and freezing, moisture will come to the surface of your products, and unless you s uh coated them in between, and this is a good idea, it costs a little more, but getting a little freezer paper and putting that in between layers inside of your Ziplocks will make it much easier to take individual pieces out to thaw. Try to keep your Ziplocks under about an inch thick, and that will make the thawing a lot easier, right? Anytime you go bigger, it's gonna take a lot longer to thaw.
+
+[35:14] Make sure you get freezer ziploc bags. One of the reasons that people use aluminum foil when they're putting things in freezers is because the aluminum foil conforms very well to the outside of the product, right? And conforming to the outside of the product has the advantage that it prevents any time air is there, you get crystallization and recrystallization. The outside of the product can get uh ruined. Problem with aluminum foil is that then you can't see the product, and so you're much less likely to use it, which is why I always say if you wrap something in aluminum foil, just throw it away now, right?
+
+[35:49] Whereas in Ziplocks, you can kind of see what's going on, but make sure you get a freezer one because it has a much better gas barrier, oxygen barrier than uh regular saran wrap or regular plastic wrap. Okay, so I recommend the freezer ziplocks, getting the air out of them so you don't get a lot of recrystallization, keeping them within about um an inch of thickness, and the reason for that is just your your thaw time. And this is why for something like mashed potatoes, I don't recommend you freeze them in quart containers because it'll take forever. If you're gonna freeze your mashed potatoes, which is a good idea, put them into a gallon zip block, but put them all into the bottom, right? Don't try to spread it, and then put the bottom big plug of it down on your counter and slowly push the mashed potatoes towards the top to try to get the air out.
+
+[36:35] Seal it once the air is gone, flatten it into a flat pack, label it, and freeze it. Um what else? Uh bread products. You should remember never to if you make Parker House rolls or equivalent, which we're gonna do. Please remember don't refrigerate those things when they're done.
+
+[36:52] They're just gonna get ruined. So either freeze them or eat them and try to eat things in reverse order of keeping. Stuffing keeps very well, right? So in the freezer. So freezing stuffing the same way you freeze mashed potatoes is a good way.
+
+[37:07] And you know what? Like, as long as you eat it before the new year, nobody minds having a meal of like stuffing gravy and mashed potatoes, even if you don't have that much leftover turkey. You guys with me on this or against me on this? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[37:20] Uh yeah. Any other any other things people uh need to know about saving or any other problems you think people are gonna have about saving their saving their products that aren't obvious? Hmm. Alright, you it John, you wanna before we go to the other ones, you want to read some of these uh some of these uh Thanksgiving specific questions? All right, all right, from Robert Kantu via email.
+
+[37:49] Hello, cooking issues crew. I'm looking into cooking my turkey that's here via circulator and getting a very crispy skin by frying it. There isn't much reliable information in Subid Turkey online. I'm assuming uh to do the size to do it in the size of the vacuum machine required. I luckily I found a turkey that will fit in my vacuum machine.
+
+[38:06] My questions are what time and temperature do I circulate my 9.8 pound heritage turkey. Also, should I hang dry the turkey before I fry it? What time should I fry it? Thank you in advance, Robert. Nine pound turkey.
+
+[38:20] Oh my god. I believe you've bought purchased a large chicken. Nine pound turkey. Um I'm just I'm just fooling with you. By the way, uh, about turkeys uh versus chicken.
+
+[38:35] I know some people are doing the chicken instead. Chicken, I love chicken. Chicken does not smell like turkey. Like, to me, the smell of the turkey on Thanksgiving. That I like that by the way, I'm not one of these guys who's like, I don't like turkey, I only eat it because it's Thanksgiving, because it's traditional, I don't really like turkey.
+
+[38:54] I love turkey. I'm like the dad off of the Christmas story. I love turkey. I love the smell of turkey, I love the taste of turkey. I don't like it overcooked, but I do love turkey.
+
+[39:04] Where do you guys where do you guys fit on the turkey? Enjoy. Like, good. Yeah. Yep.
+
+[39:10] Yeah. All right. The problem that you're gonna have with your vacuuming the turkey, and one of the reasons that I don't ever vacuum a turkey, right? Is um first of all, it's hollow, so you're gonna crush it, right? Second of all, it's gonna take a long, long time to get uh the uh heat all the way uh through the turkey when you're doing it.
+
+[39:34] So what I recommend that you do is this. Cut out the backbone of the turkey. Also cut out all of the ribs or anything that is ridiculously sharp inside of the turkey. Then bag it semi-flat. Okay?
+
+[39:52] You guys with me so far is my explanation making sense? Yep. Bat bag it as though it was spatchcocked. Is this making sense? Yeah, right?
+
+[40:00] Then bend it into a turkey shape and circulate it like that, making sure that liquid can get to the inside of what used to be the cavity of the chicken, and leaving yourself like a little hinge that you can kind of open it on uh on on the on the bottom. Be gentle with it. Remove it, make sure that you don't like move it too much, let it get cold. Cold, right? Then cut it out of the bag gently.
+
+[40:30] It will now hold its shape, right? Then put it on a rack in your fridge and let the skin dry out. If you don't let the skin dry out, bird will not be crispy. I'll repeat this bird will not be crispy. Then fry it and you should be fine.
+
+[40:47] Right? Now, is it going to be as crispy as a bird that you fried for like 40 minutes? No. You know what I mean? Or as one that's been roasted.
+
+[40:59] I mean, the crispiness on skin is not just a function of the temperature, but it's a function of dehydration over time. So I would say you're still gonna have to fry it for more than like a minute, because obviously it takes longer than a minute to turn skin from flaccid, like partially cooked skin into crispy chicken skin. I would run a uh turkey skin. I would run a test, I would get a leg. I would just buy a leg, uh a drumstick, and uh like today, and then I would bag it, circulate it, cool it, and you can do the other one at the same time in terms of cooking it, right?
+
+[41:39] But then I would test frying. This is what we did when we were testing the stuff back at the French culinary back in the day, then uh fry it at different temperatures for different lengths of time and get a feeling for what happens uh to the skin. All right? Because you don't want to be disappointed with the whole bird at Thanksgiving time. What do you guys think?
+
+[41:59] Sounds good. Alright. All right. We've got Nan's a question from Nancy via Instagram. Hi again.
+
+[42:09] If Dave has the opportunity to discuss, it'd be great. I know that Dave has a tandoor of them. And this is for she used to. My mom has it now. But of course I haven't seen my mom since the pandemic.
+
+[42:18] But go ahead. Gotcha. This is for her Thanksgiving. Um I've been experimenting with making naan without great success. My daughter-in-law, who was born in India and spent most of her life there, generously tells me it's tasty, but it lacks a traditional chew.
+
+[42:31] I'd be grateful for any advice as to ingredients. I tried all yogurt, part water and yogurt, milk and yogurt, and none of the attempts have been as delicious as I desire. Many things in advance. Like most of the recipes that are published online are like cooking a tandoor if you have one, ha ha ha, but they're actually designed to be cooked in a normal oven, right? So um, you know, John, if you remind me later, if we have her Instagram, I can look up the recipe.
+
+[43:09] If she doesn't already does she own the tandoor book, did she say? If she owns the tandoor book, I can get the recipe out of that book. Uh I I it's hard for me to judge whether or not it's the it's the base recipe that's the problem. And since I haven't fired my tandoor up in a in a year and a half because my mom has it, I can't remember off the top of my head um what what recipe I used. But um I'll try to get uh to you to put out today, uh later today, um Ranjit Rai's uh non recipe that's actually uh done in a tandoor.
+
+[43:43] Um if it's cooked through and it's an issue of of uh the chew is not right, then it's probably the dough base. But uh I'll I'll get his and and you can see whether it's appreciably different from the one you're using. Alright. Sounds good. Um all right.
+
+[44:00] Uh you know what? You ever you ever use a tandoor? John? No, I haven't. I'd like to.
+
+[44:04] Dude, the first time that you go into the thing with the with the little like the poofy thing to put the bread against, man, that that's nerve-wracking. I bet. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it's really hot. And when you make it, you've gone through all this stuff, and then the the bread falls into the coals and catches fire.
+
+[44:20] Then the fire from the one that fell into the coals kind of scorches the other ones that are already in the tandoor. That's good times. Perfect. Yeah. Nice.
+
+[44:28] Best. Okay. All right, from Neil Herzl. Hello, everyone, wherever you are now. This year I'm cooking Thanksgiving dinner at an altitude of 8,000 feet.
+
+[44:37] I know very little about altitude cooking other than that it's different. I'm doing an 11-pound bone-in prime rib roast. I was planning on doing the Kenji reverse sear method. Unfortunately, I will not have. It's not called reverse sear, people.
+
+[44:50] It's whether you sear it before or after. I don't uh don't don't anyone ever write me a question that uses the term reverse sear. It it ticks me off. Go ahead. Unfortunately, I will not have much more than an oven and a sears all.
+
+[45:02] You can use this as a gift uh box plug. Very nice. Uh to work with any tips would be much appreciated. Um cooking at Alpha, 11 pound bone-in prime rubber. Yeah, I'm looking up the boiling point of water at 10.9 PSI, which is what will what will be up there.
+
+[45:21] Um at uh this is positive pressure. I need negative pressure. Um I gotta look it up. That's quite high. Um, let me see.
+
+[45:37] So what what were the ones what what were they interested in cooking again? Before I before my own. 11 pound bone-in prime rib roast. So look, what you're affecting when you affect um, you're affecting the temperature uh at which water boils, right? So what's gonna happen is it's gonna take uh it's gonna be a like on the inside of meat where it's cooking in an oven, um, you get a crust, and that crust forms because there's evaporation of water.
+
+[46:10] And once the evaporation uh leaves, you should be able to get a very nice crust, right? That shouldn't be a problem because as soon as the water is gone, right, you can get the same browning as you would otherwise get. And also radiant heat from the oven is not affected by um by any of these problems. Um the problem is that um under the surface where there is still water, right? So, like if you go into really anytime you're cooking with a high heat, you're cooking at the boiling point of water at some point inside your meat.
+
+[46:42] And so the rate at which the heat is going to travel from that front, that boiling point front to the center is dependent on the temperature delta between the center of the meat and the outside. And because your temperature delta is appreciably lower, it will take longer to get up to the temperature uh that you that that you want. So I would anticipate it taking longer. I've never cooked something uh at that like that at that altitude either. Uh I'm sure there are some things on the internet about it, and I will think about this because it is something that is uh interesting to me.
+
+[47:17] You if it is taking longer and you're gonna be evaporating water faster, which means that your uh crust will probably form uh faster, considering compared to the inside, you're gonna have to have a healthy uh uh amount of aluminum foil around you so that you can um uh stop it from browning in areas where there's getting too much radiant uh uh heat um the aluminum foil will block the radiant heat from the outside of the oven by almost an order of magnitude right so uh you know if you're getting X amount of radiant energy you know you'll get roughly like X over 10. You know what I mean? So it's uh it's it's significant. So make sure you have uh some aluminum foil um and there's gotta be somebody who um who has this uh this inf this information on cooking ribs was there anything uh oh else cooking yeah good luck doing rice and and beans and stuff unless you have a pressure cooker um but I can't find what the what the what the temperature that it's gonna boil is up there but it's it's significantly lower um for some reason my my saturated um my saturated tables aren't coming up right now but you're at 10.9 psi there so um anyway all right if I get more we'll put it out there or they can send me a question on uh Twitter cooking issues on Twitter. All right next one from Matt Z via email.
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+[48:42] Hi cooking issues crew thoughts on egg replacement for vegan stuffing thanks. Whoo alright so like in stuffing you're using egg for its binding ability not for its um not for its stability. So um what protein is good for binding? So in other words, like it actually kind of sets it, right? So you're not uh it's not something like flax or xanthan, um, which is just like a snottiness to provide structure while something is cooking.
+
+[49:20] The actual protein provides structure. Hmm. Uh John, do you have any good ideas for this or Nastasia? Have you come across this in your in your you still eat eggs though, so you haven't really worked on that, right? Yeah, I wasn't making vegan stuffing in May.
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+[49:35] Sorry. Uh well, that was a very snide attitude you had. But what I'm saying is, as far as I know, you're still eating less meat, and using eggs as a binder isn't just something you do in stuffing. Yeah. So thanks for the snide remark.
+
+[49:49] But uh was unnecessary and unhelpful. Uh yeah, I don't know. I can't really think of anything. Um you Google that up for a minute and we'll go into the next read the next question and go and Google that up for me. Okay.
+
+[50:04] Um Capri Sun via Twitter. I really enjoy classic typical pumpkin pie. I make it exactly according to instructions on Libby puree can in a keyboard ram crust. Are there any twists or variations or add-ins that may be interesting? Uh well, you could try, like if you like a standard graham cracker crust, I would say go with a standard graham cracker crust.
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+[50:32] If you have not tried Boston Monroe Strauss's uh pie march on uh graham cracker, which is a real crust with uh graham cracker rolled onto both sides. I would maybe try that. I can't remember what he says in his um I can't remember what he says in his um pumpkin pie uh recipe, but he he gives a recipe for making your own uh pumpkin pie filling and I have not been led astray by him yet but I haven't I didn't get a chance to go look at his recipe by the way there's a new pie is it Pete's Pies that came out with a book someone just came out with a with a pie book you should get we should get that we should it we should get them on right do you do do you like the P spies I have friends who love PD's pies I had some of their chocolate chest pie last night and it was really really delicious. Yeah yeah should we get the Pete Spies people on is it a person or is it Pole? I don't know we can find out we should get them on and then and then just like you know we'll pepper them with pie questions about about uh theirs and other people's pie books.
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+[51:38] You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you can be like with this one fantastic pie book already in existence what justified writing another one you know so I'll tell a little story. So uh other than the fact that I hate writing things um like uh the French Culinary Institute wanted uh wanted to do a book on food tech this was in oh god like 2000 this is before I even started the blog right they wanted to do a book on on food tech and uh I never forget Nathan Miravold showed up at the school one day and you know Nathan Mirable Microsoft billionaire our everyone's favorite patent troll uh he shows up at the school one day and you know Dorothy who was running the school owner of school had me come down and sit and lunch with him because I was her tech guy, and he said he was working on the book, and we had literally just had meetings.
+
+[52:37] This is the original Modernist cuisine. And we had all these meetings, and I was like, oh hell no, I'm never gonna write a book now. Never. Like, I'm not, no, never. Like, first of all, like, you know, like how the heck am I gonna write anything that can compete with what Nathan Miravold is doing?
+
+[52:52] And then, you know, once, you know, once he wrote it and it came out, you're like, oh, there's still room in this field. You know what I mean? And like this, like the same when anyone writes like a killer book or does a killer thing. First of all, people always want new things, so there's always a reason to to write things, but um, there's almost always something new to say. But I think you know, authors and creative people kind of get bent or get um they get upset by the idea that like their thunder is gonna get stolen or there'll be nothing left to say, but you know, that hasn't happened yet.
+
+[53:25] I wouldn't worry about it. So I'm sure there's plenty to say about pies that was not said by Boston Munro Strauss or anyway. Pete's pies. I hear they're delicious. And also you can have their pie and figure out whether you like it, right?
+
+[53:39] Whereas, you know, the other guy's pies, he's been dead for a long time. There's gotta be some dark story to him because no one can figure out what happened after he was no longer famous. There's gotta be some dark story. No one just five falls off the falls off the pie radar. You know what I mean?
+
+[53:55] Uh interesting. Yeah. What's the next question, John? Sean has muted himself. I don't know what that means.
+
+[54:06] Maybe he's deep in a Google Hole looking for the answer. All right, have dogs surrounding me everywhere. Or he's being attacked by dogs. Yeah. Yes, John has a new uh John has a new dog that he got at the at the pound.
+
+[54:20] It's true. You want to tell him what the name of your dog is? Nastasia loves it. And I'll tell Koji. Yeah.
+
+[54:29] Start listeners just love that. What are your thoughts, Matt? As an unpoisoned on this discussion individual, what are your thoughts? On that as a dog name? It's fine.
+
+[54:40] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our friend Jeremiah Stone, the chef, his his new dog's name is Kambu. So it seems to be the season of the stuff.
+
+[54:51] Like sale named dogs. I know. Exactly. Uh-huh. That's what it communicates.
+
+[54:58] Yes. Wow. You're just uh, you know, in advance of Thanksgiving, you're just like uh It's funny because you want me to be harsh day, but then when I'm harsh, you're like, oh harsh. But that's what he likes. He likes to be able to play that as part of the role.
+
+[55:14] Yeah. Oh yeah. It always comes back to me being a bad guy. All right. What do you got?
+
+[55:17] You got questions. You got questions there, Jared, for me? Uh from Sean Andrews via Twitter. Outsourcing the turkey this year to save on time and space. Just me and my wife this year.
+
+[55:26] But still need gravy without a pan of turkey goodness to deglaze. Any sugg suggestions on how this can be done well. Alright, the pan of turkey deglaze is a good idea if that's all you've got, but honestly, it's a huge pain in the butt to be doing that while you're worried about the turkey resting, right? This that whole part of Thanksgiving has always kind of ticked me off a little bit. The best thing to do, even if you've outsourced a turkey, is just go to the supermarket today and buy some turkey parts, right?
+
+[55:55] And they don't need to you don't need that many of them. Hack them up, roast the hell out of them, right? And then uh deglaze the roasting pan and just do a stock that way. Make a standard roux. Um by the way, uh here's an instruction that I think a lot of people don't follow, right?
+
+[56:16] When you make a roux, first of all, I think people are worried about using too much fat in the roux, so the roux are too dry, and that's a lot of the reason people get clumping and burning on their stuff because the roux isn't kind of fluid enough to be able to stir properly. Rux are greatly enhanced from a mental standpoint by doing them on an induction burner with good control because you know you're not going to scorch on that thing, right? Because nobody likes a scorched roux. I mean nobody likes it. Also, you're not doing Louisiana cooking, you don't need to worry about making a dark brown roux.
+
+[56:50] Just do it until the oil is permeated or the butter or whatever I use butter has permeated the flour and it's all nice and homogenous, right? You're looking for homogenous, right? Now, here's I think the peak thing that people don't take seriously enough. Boil the stock. The stock that you pour into that roux needs to be boiling.
+
+[57:12] If the stock is not boiling, you add so much stock that if it's cold, it will solidify a portion of your roux. If it does solidify a portion of your roux, that will form lumps. Now you can blend it, right? But why would you want to blend it if you can just avoid forming those lumps in the first place and make sure that the stock that you add to your roux is boiling or hot. At least make it hot.
+
+[57:36] But boiling better, right? And then you're not gonna have problems with lumps in that gravy. Um after you do your initial, so it like you can do a number of things. You can um do whatever wine spirit or whatever you're gonna add to your gravy. You can do it in the stock by itself, right?
+
+[57:54] You can do a separate pan where you flash some off so you can de-glaze the the bones. If you're if you have a roasting pan and you're doing the bones in the roasting pan, and if you're not gonna make a lot of it, if it's just you and your wife, I would do the veg and the meat in one roasting pan. Give yourself you know some some leeway there. I do a standard kind of mirapoi, I do carrots, uh onions, and celery. I usually go pretty light on the celery, but I don't mind a little bit of sweetness, so I generally use more carrots and onions than a real Frenchie person would use in a in a miracle.
+
+[58:26] But I would just hack those big, put them in the roasting pan with the with the turkey parts, then deglaze that with your alcohol if you're gonna use an alcohol uh to deglaze, uh, then add the liquid to that. I usually pressure cook that to make a stock. You don't need to, but uh I usually pressure cook it, which is one of the reasons why I have to use a lot of onion because pressure cooking really knocks down on the onion. If you're a fan of this, um when you're doing the uh before you do the roux, you can sweat if it's a very, very fine dice. You can dice your uh your onion and then throw it into the into the butter and saute that and make the roux with the onion.
+
+[59:08] As long as you use boiling liquid, you won't get clumps based around that onion, although it does make it more dangerous. But it's nice, I think, to have a little freshly sauteed uh onion in um in when you're making the roux right before you thicken it. I'm sure John uses some sort of freaking like shallot or some card of garbage like this. Do you do you go French on this? What do you what do you use for this?
+
+[59:29] No, I just do, I don't know. I'll do stock with onion, celery, carrots, some garlic, black peppercorns, blah, bailey pine. Yeah. Oh, oh by the way, we got the black and white peppercorns. And I have to say, on a steak, I think I still prefer the black, but uh, we really like those campot campot.
+
+[59:47] We really like those campot uh white peppercorns here uh in the Carpenter Arnold household for more delicate pepper applications. Um yeah, I always throw some like parsley and some whatever herbs I have into the and I recommend it been to tables, uh fancy poultry seasoning for um but like that classic kind of like parsley sage. Hey, where'd you get your turkey from? Heritage. You're just trolling me now.
+
+[1:00:14] Go for it, Sas. Where'd you get your turkey from? Trader Freak and Joe's. But you're trolling me because we didn't get to turkeys this year. You're just causing issues.
+
+[1:00:22] But fine, that's fine. Let's do it. Go for it. That's it. I just I just wanted to know.
+
+[1:00:27] I I didn't know. What about you? Where'd you get yours? Um the pirate in the dress is cooking in, and I think he got it from Ralph's. Ralphs!
+
+[1:00:36] The only grocery store named after vomiting. Ralph's um who was it that who is it that like what major person called out Ralph's and said we're more of a Ralph's country than a Whole Foods country? Who was it? I don't remember that. We were all talking about it.
+
+[1:00:54] It was some politician or or some news cat. Oh, it's Brian Freakin' Williams. Brian Freakin' Williams was like, Well, we're more of a Ralph's you live in New York. What are you calling Ralph's out for? Jerk.
+
+[1:01:05] You know what I mean? Sure, I like that. Yeah, anyway. Ralph. Uh I you know what I used to like, okay.
+
+[1:01:12] How many of us remember the like well, it's still happening, so it's not remembering, but like when when I used to be in Connecticut for Thanksgiving, like I I don't know, probably I don't know, probably like uh I used to love seeing the ridiculous. I know that they're not as good heritage, yakki yaka, but I used to love seeing how cheap those giant turkeys would be. You know what I mean? Like the the buttermall or whatever? Or like you go into you go into the you know, so it's not Ralph's out here, it's uh it's stopping shop.
+
+[1:01:45] Yeah, so you go to the stopping shop and they have a freezer case bigger than your car, right? And it's just full of turkeys, right? And uh, and they're like 10 cents a pound because they want you to buy it, or if you spend like a hundred dollars, you like get free turkey. It's like it's like less than nothing. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:02:04] Like the stuff that you're stuffing into it is like infinitely cheaper. You know what I mean? Crazy. Do you ever you ever buy those? And you know what I have to say?
+
+[1:02:12] I know they're not heritage birds in that, but they don't taste bad. They don't taste bad, those those turkeys. They don't. Anyway. Um, by the way, if you're cooking a turkey, it like uh remember that the old school saying about uh stuffing a turkey is true, that can cause severe um uh illness, right?
+
+[1:02:35] Because it takes such a long time to heat up the stuffing on the inside of the bird. So if you're going to stuff a bird uh and cook it stuffed like that, I feel you should uh do the hot stuff. Removing the bones on the inside and like opening it is one way, but the hot stuff is another, uh, where you preheat the the stuffing in a casserole covered so it doesn't get too dry, and you get it up to you know 212 boiling, then you get two layers of dish uh washing gloves, you know, the old school kind, you know, the yellow or blue kind, uh, ones that like let you pick up things that are hot, and then hot stuff, the hot stuff the turkey so that it's already at temperatures that will kill uh bad beasties as it goes in the oven. Uh it's a that's a much better way to um to not get yourself uh damaged. By the way, what are your guys' thoughts on casseroles?
+
+[1:03:28] They're part of Thanksgiving. Really? What kind of casserole? Bean? Rachel's doing a green bean, yeah, and I'm doing the yams with marshmallow thing, which is basically.
+
+[1:03:37] Ooh, I love the yams with marshmallows. Or I love the idea of it. Do you like it or love the idea of it? Both, I guess. Was it brown sugar, marshmallows, butter, and cubed sweet potatoes?
+
+[1:03:48] And pineapples. Pineapple. Ooh, and pineapple. I've never had that. How's that?
+
+[1:03:53] Been eating it forever. That's my mom's thing. Also, my mom bought me a barbecue, and then I was like, I don't really like it after using it for 10 times, and she returned it to Home Depot. And they gave her all her money back. That checks out.
+
+[1:04:08] So are you using canned pineapple or fresh pineapple? And of course. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People are gonna ask. I'm asking for them.
+
+[1:04:15] Rings or chunks? Um chunks. Mixed in, not on top. Mixed in. Butter, yes, butter no.
+
+[1:04:24] Butter, yes. Alright. So, how thick a layer of pineapple and and sweet potato we're talking about? Like um a standard like nine by whatever uh a disposable foil tray. So whatever that's like.
+
+[1:04:39] It's like filled up though? Yeah. Like it's hot. Like it's not like like I can I can't see the tray in between the pieces. Right, no, it's filled.
+
+[1:04:47] So it takes like an hour and a half. Yeah. Alright. Uh are you a brown sugar or no brown sugar? Brown sugar.
+
+[1:04:54] All right. Are you a light brown sugar family or dark brown sugar family? Light. All right. So light brown sugar and like what what what are we looking at like is it mostly sweet potato with some pineapple or is like a lot of pineapple a lot of pineapple and then the top is all marshmallow of course minis right yes yeah and do you you put the minis in at the end or do you bake them throughout and lift it up and brown them at the end bake throughout lift and brown at the end lift and brown okay uh no almonds right no I'm just checking sauce geez people are gonna ask that's something no no no yeah everybody the chat's just filled with questions one by one ingredient by ingredient about this casserole yeah sweet potatoes sweet potatoes roughly the same size as the pineapple chunks yeah yeah all right I feel like I have a good picture you want to know what my mom's stuffing is all right what okay white bread right Jones you know the sage sausage that comes in a tube that you buy frozen it comes in a plastic tube and you hack it into pack yeah so you saute like a whole bunch of that and break it up into into chunks you reserve it and the grease you melt a whole bunch of butter you reserve that you saute a bunch of mushrooms you reserve that celery oh I did forgot to buy celery chopped up celery then uh shredded uh mandarin or canned mandar and oranges I like everything except for that but go on oh that's you know sorry that's what we have to have in in in our house and then we shred up fresh not the dried stuff fresh white bread like Arnold's not because of my name but just because that that kind of texture, so not quite wonder, but not super dense either.
+
+[1:06:34] We shred the hell out of that and mix that all up with egg as a binder, and that's that's been our oh and sauteed onions sorry that does sound good. Except for the mandarin orange. Yeah, well, you could add a different sweet thing if you like, but it's remember like this is the recipe she's been making since like I mean, I don't really know because I never had like I've never had my grandma make it like you know, my mom's mom. I always had my mom make it by the time like I remember my mom was doing the Thanksgiving and grandma would come to our house. Um so I don't know, I'll have to ask her where she got that recipe from, but mandarin oranges was a thing in the 70s.
+
+[1:07:11] Oh, yeah. Right, and yeah, and so ever since I can remember those canned mandarin oranges were in the 90s. Really? They were big in the 90s? My mom used them a lot.
+
+[1:07:20] I think that's right, yeah. Well, you know, your m uh your mom and my mom pretty much were living very similar lives. My mom grew up in San Bernardino. Mm-hmm. I guess your mom grew up in Pennsylvania, but like how long has she been out in California?
+
+[1:07:33] Since she was 17. All right, so yeah, so like they were living in the same area when all this stuff was happening. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe it's like a maybe it's like a like a Covina slash San Bernardino kind of a situation.
+
+[1:07:45] I don't know. Uh if we have any. Wait, John, any more any more pressing Thanksgiving questions? Uh we have uh let's see. Did you come up with any good vegan replacers by the way?
+
+[1:07:59] No, and I mean there were a lot of people suggesting like applesauce or fruit pures. Yeah, but that's not gonna bind a protein that binds. You need a you need a protein that sets that's vegan. I mean, I'm sure someone makes some sort of soy based thing. Um, I don't know.
+
+[1:08:14] I'll try to look and and John will put it out on the if we have any time in between trying to get Amazon to not turn our business off. Butter replacement is the earth balance stuff. It's surprisingly really great. I've never uh what is it? Is it made from coconuts?
+
+[1:08:32] What is it made from? No, it's definitely not coconuts. I don't remember what it's made of, but I made a like a buttercream frosting with it for when my friend gave birth and was doing she had allergy shit. And um it was great. It's freaking fantastic.
+
+[1:08:50] Hmm. Hmm. All right. Great. Yeah.
+
+[1:08:53] Um I see these two questions that oh, if you're gonna make chicken fried turkey without the use of a circulator from frying raw, any tips you would have? Yeah. Cut the pieces. This is from Max via Twitter. Cut the pieces uh into roughly chicken breast size pieces before you bread them, and then uh follow my temperature instructions on if you look up food and wine fried chicken, Dave Arnold, you can get my old fried chicken recipe, and that's what I use when I chicken fry turkey.
+
+[1:09:19] So just cut the pieces small enough. You're gonna have to lower the oil temperature, right? That's the main thing is lowering the oil temperature. That's part of the miracle of moisture management. More on that in my book, but you'll have to wait until the until I'm dead, right?
+
+[1:09:32] Yeah, Michael Cunz via Twitter, favorite specs for low-temping duck legs and breasts. The breast I would do at 57 for no more than 45 minutes. Uh, you can go a little bit lower, a little bit higher, like 56 something, but 57 is a nice even number for the duck breast low temperature. I would not do the duck legs low temperature. If you're going to bag them, ain't nothing beating uh traditional comfy uh temperatures for duck legs because they just don't really get tender a low temperature unless you cook them for a really long time, and I just don't like them as much.
+
+[1:10:00] And then um Nate Simon wrote in and said uh that his ANOVA countertop combi oven shipped early, have it for Thanksgiving. What's the best approach for cooking a turkey leg roulade net? Uh I look, um, I have never used their, so I don't know, I don't know how it works. Um I can't I can't give any any specifications other than that you're gonna radically increase the heat transfer ratio into uh into the into the product. So just again, make sure that you um you have plenty of aluminum foil around if you need to tent over it uh to block radiation that's coming through.
+
+[1:10:36] Uh anything else? Nope. No, I see uh wet market dynamics wrote in and asked whether I have a comparable uh potato chip recipe for my French fry recipe. Interesting. I've been working on it, but it's for my book.
+
+[1:10:51] It's for my book, but I might talk about it later. I've been frying a lot of potato chips. You like you like potato chips, Nastasi, more than French fries? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:10:58] Oh, I should send you some from Alex. There's this brand out here that's really good. Yeah. Send it in your next care package that you'll never talk about. Uh Nastasia sent me a Buddha's hand, and I don't have a and a bunch of passion fruit because Nastasia is a passion passion fruit aficionado, a conycente of passion fruit, which is why I can't believe you've never been to South America where they have so many passion fruits.
+
+[1:11:26] You should just go there just like on a passion fruit trip. Okay. Hey, how about you know how I've dragged you like everywhere to eat stuff that you don't care about? Yeah, well, why don't you drag me to South America and we could do a passion fruit thing? That would be great, Dave.
+
+[1:11:40] Let's plan that. Well, once there's no more COVID, um your potato chips, ideal potato chips, people. Do you care whether they're overly brown? Do you require a super blonde potato chip or do you not care? I like them thicker.
+
+[1:11:56] But so my question is more brown. More brown. Because a lot of people hate brown. They want the potato chips to basically be thick, but also white. I don't care about that.
+
+[1:12:09] You know what I'm saying? All right. Like kettle chicken. A happy Thanksgiving. I'm not getting any feedback from you people.
+
+[1:12:16] Happy Thanksgiving. Uh we will sell again. There's series. Look out for our next newsletter. None left.
+
+[1:12:25] So you need to. Oh, there's plenty left. There's not some. But like with Ben to Table, there's barely any left. So yeah.
+
+[1:12:34] Get them today. Fangaroff. Snap one up during this show. So watch out, people. Okay.
+
+[1:12:44] You know, I've never been to Oklahoma. Okay. Bye, everybody. Bye. Happy Thanksgiving.
+
+[1:12:53] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:13:07] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
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+[1:13:29] Subscribe to the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal, helping you to enjoy your fruits and vegetables at peak freshness and reduce food waste. Learn more at appeal.com, A-P-E-E-L dot com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the lower east side of Manhattan, New York City. We got uh Nastasia, the hammerlow pins from her undisclosed location in Southern California with the newly uh, you know, the newly whatever re-in ordered uh stay at homes.
+
+[0:35] How are you doing there, Nastasia? Good. Yeah. Although she's not staying at home because she's moving, so she has no home. She's homeless for like an hour.
+
+[0:42] People don't need to know that. Now they do. Now they do. Uh we got uh John coming from uh Lyme, Connecticut. Uh home of Lyme disease.
+
+[0:53] It actually is named after Lyme, Connecticut. So that's not just an unfortunate kind of thing. And uh John, tell me if you know this story. Are you familiar with the uh company Deep River uh Snacks? They make potato chips.
+
+[1:07] Oh yeah, great potato chips. Yeah, they are good actually. I enjoy them. I do. Uh so the owner of Deep River, they actually they're made in Lyme, right?
+
+[1:16] So Deep River, Deep River is a town like across the river from uh Lyme, across the river and like right across the Connecticut River from Lyme. And Lyme is a little bit hoity toity, and Deep River, like is not. You know what I mean? Like Deep River is like like that's where Gretchen Ma comes from, I think. It's old school, like, you know, kind of like nice little place.
+
+[1:38] And the people just up north, Chester, which is where the artist Saul Lewitt lives and stuff like, they like to look down on deep river people. Anyway, I digress. So the reason it's called Deep River Snacks is because the guy who lives in Lyme that started the company is like, who wants to buy Lyme disease potato chips? You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[1:55] Yeah. No, no, no, no, but that makes sense, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh we got uh Matt in his Heidi Hole uh booth uh in uh Rhode Island. How's it going?
+
+[2:06] Going all right. We have an ad campaign here that I just saw the other day. I walked past this poster and I was like, have you tested negative for Lyme disease? You might still have Lyme disease. I was like, that's stop.
+
+[2:17] That's great. That's great. Remember uh back in the day, uh, I mean, like, you know, now obviously it's different, but back in the day, I my one of my favorite ads was um there was for some sort of disinfectant like soap or spray. And it it, you know, God knows in you know, going forward, uh, what our collective immunities for other things are gonna be like now that we've like lived in almost completely aseptic environments for the past nine months, right? Because I didn't your parents ever used to tell you guys that you needed to like consume a certain amount of dirt and filth in order to build up your immunity.
+
+[2:53] Do you remember this? Anyway. Yeah. And until recently, right, because of for obvious reasons, I've always been kind of against you know, sterilizing every surface in my life because I'm like, I'd rather build up an immunity to like the small level of stuff that's around me. Anyway, so like there was a I I forget which cleaner it was, but they were like, it was like a husband-wife, and they were like, uh, honey, you remember that time like uh like two months ago when you were sick and you thought you had the flu?
+
+[3:22] He's like, yeah. And she's like, well, you know, maybe it was just a mild case of salmonella. We need to sterilize the whole freaking house. And then she like sprays this like like cleaner because they're trying to get you petrified of your kitchen at all times. So I feel like the Lyme disease is the same thing.
+
+[3:36] It's like, hey, you had a bunch of tests that you don't have Lyme disease, you may still have it. I still have it. Yeah. Although I have to say, undiagnosed Lyme disease is really terrible. Like it's not something to mess around with.
+
+[3:48] Like having spent a lot of time in Lyme Disease Central and gotten it before, like undiagnosed Lyme disease is no joke. But uh but how are you supposed to diagnose it if you're negative? What do they want you to do with this information? I I stopped reading the poster at that point, so I didn't go down to the next small, like the font size smaller, so I don't actually know what I was supposed to do about it. Right.
+
+[4:10] The what the what do I do with this information kind of I was just like, God, and then I ran away. So not only did the ad take you off, but also it did not have its desired effect of you uh of you like doing anything. Yeah, there's another there's another ad that uh uh Nastasi, it went up after you left, so you haven't seen it, but John and I have seen it. Uh it's like a so the Manhattan Bridge goes from Brooklyn to uh Williamsburg and we sorry from Brooklyn to um Lower Manhattan. And when you go across it, there's this big ad and it says, if like if you hate racism, no, if if you like racism, delete Uber.
+
+[4:55] It's all this stuff, but it in giant letters it has the word racism and Uber, and the phrasing of it is too complicated to immediately understand. It wasn't like Uber hates racism, right? Or something like so blunt that like when you're driving in a car, you can understand what the heck they were saying, right? Instead, it's this complicated construction like if then, if then racism Uber. So I was like, Uber's racist?
+
+[5:20] And then I was like, and then like only like the next three times when I saw it was it like, oh, Uber's trying to say something against racism. Bad ad. If I have to sit there and wonder whether your company is racist or not, what idiot sat by in a room was like, you know what? Let's in an equal size font. Let's just put the words racism and uber right next to each other on a big billboard that people can only see as they're driving.
+
+[5:44] What do you think, guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It seems like a good idea, right? Anyway.
+
+[5:49] Um John, you remember you you've seen that billboard, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, we went to car together. It was terrible. It was super confusing.
+
+[5:56] Yeah, yeah, super confused. Uh, all right. So uh are any of you guys, uh are any of you guys familiar with the um Korean uh American food uh person uh uh monk. Anyone? She's got like eight billion like YouTube followers, she has several cookbooks.
+
+[6:20] Um and actually, Nastasia, you're you're gonna like this. Guess what Mongqi, and I'm probably butchering the pronunciation. Guess what Mongchi translates to? Uh I don't know. Uh the hammer.
+
+[6:34] Nice. Yeah, yeah, means hammer in Korean. Anyway, step off territory is taken. Well, you know, I feel like in a different language you can do it. You know what I mean?
+
+[6:45] I feel like it's anyway. Uh so she's enormously popular. And uh she had this recipe. So I like I'm still on turkey leftovers because there's just not that many of us, and Trader Joe's turkey was like 20 pounds, so like you know, I still have turkey leftover. And uh, so I was like, okay, I'm gonna make like I was gonna do like a turkey pot pie.
+
+[7:04] You guys like pot pie, right? Oh what's up, yeah. I love pot pie. But here's my this is this is a pot pie question. This is not what I'm here to talk about, but do you require that there be two crusts, even though the bottom crust is gonna get soggy and make the leftovers not as good?
+
+[7:14] Or are you okay with a one crust where the top crust is there and then you can just dig into it and serve it like out of a casserole dish? Thoughts. I'm okay with just a top crust. Nastasia. Okay.
+
+[7:31] Uh-huh. Did you ever eat chicken, Matt? Or no? Is this just totally lost on you? Uh this is pretty lost on me because I even when I ate meat things, I just didn't really like chicken that much.
+
+[7:44] What about pot pies though? All right. Well, for those of you that I don't know, have never been a child in America before, a pot pie is like vegetables. You need to have your your peas, carrot, celery, right? And like a cream-based, like like a light cream-based gravy kind of a situation.
+
+[8:07] And which, you know, if you're gonna be a joker about it, you could use some sort of cream soup, right? And then typically hacked up chicken, but turkey delicious in in pie format. Uh, and it's it's one of the great things. It's one of the uh it's one of the great like comfort foods, I think, like ever. It's delicious anyway.
+
+[8:27] So I was like, I'm gonna make a turkey pot pie. And Jen was like, my wife was like, yeah, awesome. I love pot pie. And then I remembered neither of my kids will eat the vegetable combination that's in a pot pie. I was like, I'm toast.
+
+[8:39] They won't eat it. And then I just have to sit there getting more and more angry as only Jen and I are eating the pot pie, and I just I was like, I can't do it, I can't do it. I was like, fine. I will make a turkey soup completely devoid of vegetables, and then just have the vegetables separately. So that's what I did.
+
+[8:54] I made like a light cream turkey soup, but then I was like, I still want some sort of dumpling y thing, so I was gonna do dumplings, but Dax had just made a second batch after Thanksgiving because he got it really into it of these Parker house rolls that were, you know, uh my wife's mom's recipe. Anyway, long story. So I was like, eh, I have a lot of leftover potatoes because of course I bought too many potatoes. So I have all these leftover potatoes. I was I'm gonna make potato dumplings.
+
+[9:19] But I'm like, well, I'm not gonna make gnocchi because my gnocchi are terrible. My gnocchi are terrible. Like I used to make really good gnocchi, I made it like once a week, and then somehow I lost the knack. And then when I read people's instructions on the internet about how to get the knack back, I just never make ones that I like. Do either do any of you guys make gnocchi that you like?
+
+[9:35] No. John, do you do you make you never tried? Matt, you never tried vegetarian who's never tried making gnocchi before? Uh yeah, I don't know. No excuse.
+
+[9:45] Yeah, no excuse. Um, John, how's your gnocchi game? He's muted. He may be on a call or something. Uh we'll find out when it's dog is hard.
+
+[9:58] Dogs. Dogs, right. Uh no, I have never made gnocchi. What the heck? I know, I shouldn't I need to change that.
+
+[10:04] Well, you know, if you would inspire us by telling us how to do it right, we would try it. But since you're just telling us you don't even know, that's something I don't know. Is that I I feel like I feel like it's one of those things where like when you do it a lot and you have it, and you have it, you have it, and then somehow you lose it and it doesn't come back for a while. Like I need to get it back somehow. Anyway, so I was like, I'm not gonna do the gnocchi because no, to hell with it.
+
+[10:27] So I came upon this concept, and the reason I made it, this is going back to uh to uh Mangqi. She makes this potato dumpling that does not seem plausible. I'm gonna tell you what she does. Then you can look her, look, just look up potato dumpling. The actual name for it, which I'm gonna butcher beyond belief, is dumb uh damja ungsmi, right?
+
+[10:50] Is the these potato dumplings. But here's what she does. It contains, get this, only potato, which she starts fresh, she doesn't buy anything, right? Potatoes, regular Russet Burbanks, uh, which, you know, for any of you listening outside of the United States is the standard US mealy variety, Idaho style potato that you buy. It's a standard baked potato potato.
+
+[11:14] And what she does is she peels it, she takes one of those uh, you know those kind of like uh daikon style graters with like the hexagonal holes with the like the little points that go up. You guys familiar with what I'm talking about? Is this making sense to you? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[11:27] So she's taking one of those kind of graters, she peels it, and she just grates the potato like into like a cheesecloth situation, right, in water, and then grates the whole thing. And I looked at the grating under my microscope. They're like little fine threads, is what the kind of gratitude because you'll it looks like a paste, but what comes out is little fine threads if you look at it under a microscope. I have pictures. And then you you rinse that potato stuff into a big bowl and you save the water, and then you squeeze the hell out of it.
+
+[11:57] So now you have like super dry, like potato like strands. You set that aside and you let the water settle, and the water turns disgusting, kind of purplish brown because of the enzymes. You decant all the water off, and the starch is like a cake at the bottom of your bowl, just a potato starch. Now you take the the shaved potato, you put it back on top of the starch with a little bit of salt, and you knead it back into a dough, and miraculously it turns into a dough. And then you roll it in balls between your hands, and it holds it holds together like a ball.
+
+[12:31] It doesn't fall apart. And then you boil it in in stock. She used an anchovy stock. I used you know turkey stock. You boil it, and they stay whole and they turn chewy almost like a rice cake, but the outside looks frilly almost like a miniature version of a snowball, the coconut confection that you know you used to buy.
+
+[12:53] And I was like, this is a miracle. But then no one in my family loved them. I was like, would you ever seek these out? And they're like, no, I would not seek these out. I was like, would you seek these out over a rice cake?
+
+[13:03] And they're like, no, I would not seek them out over a rice cake. But still, look it up because it's one of those things that, you know, it's kind of miraculous that it works at all. Just a little bit of salt and a potato makes a texture unlike any potato texture I've ever had out of a standard russet burbank. And it's not that complicated. But you know, maybe someone who's made this recipe can tell me like the game changer of why, like, you know, how I'm gonna get my family to love this.
+
+[13:25] But I just thought it was kind of a miracle anyway. Um Jim says this sounds like poutine rapae, which is an Acadian dish from the Maritimes, but generally gets stuffed with pork. Huh, I don't know. I will look that up. Do you have a do you have the like text me after this or email me the spelling of it and I will look it up?
+
+[13:46] I mean, you know, I think almost anything is better when stuffed with pork, but especially bitter melon. You guys like bittermelons? I mean, not you, Matt, but you guys like bittermelon stuff with pork? Yeah, yeah, bittermelon stuff with pork is delicious. Um, all right.
+
+[14:02] So speaking of pork, uh, Alex Goody wrote in uh to Nastasia a long time ago, and I haven't haven't answered it yet. Hoping you can help me out with a plan I have on making better uh chicharones, uh chicharunas. Uh, I'm sure that Alex has already tried this, but uh we'll go for it anyway. I haven't tried this yet because I'm concerned it'll explode in the fryer. Oh my god, get this.
+
+[14:22] The worst fryer experience I've ever had. I've had many fryer experiences, mostly good, but some bad over the many years of deal with a fryer was I I improperly made a falafel recipe and it wasn't bound at all. You guys like falafel? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[14:39] So I I improperly made a falafel recipe, and it didn't have uh an adequate binder in it. And because I had a commercial fryer, 40 pound, 40 pounds of oil commercial fryer, like I never used to worry about overloading it. So I put the almost the entire batch in, like enough to cover the entire top layer of the oil, which is substantial. And the entire batch of falafel instantly disintegrated into uh like a layer, like a blanket of falafel on the top of the thing, absorbed oil and sank to the bottom of my fryer. It was the worst frying nightmare, I think, of all time.
+
+[15:15] The second was the that wasn't a nightmare, but would have been the worst nightmare of all time, is uh when Nastasia and I were with, I believe uh Fabulous, Fabian von Haskin, I forget Piper probably, right? Was it Piper who was there with us? And we were testing lowering a turkey into a deep fryer, and we dropped it. And had the fryer been on, we all would have died. Remember that?
+
+[15:38] Yep. Yeah. Wait, die why would you have died? Just because it would have sprayed oil everywhere or yeah, it would have sprayed oil everywhere. We all would have, we all would have been toast.
+
+[15:49] And then our response was because it was cold, because we were running a dry, you know, a dry run. It was still oil, so it was still messy, but it was a dry run in the sense that it wasn't on. Um, we all just started laughing because we're all like, hey, we would be dead now. It was awesome, right, Stas? Yes.
+
+[16:06] Yep. Yeah, yeah. Uh okay, back to uh Alex Goody's question here. I want to find a way to make relatively flat uh, you know, uh pork skins of consistent size. I plan to pressure cook and then grind the pork andor chicken skin and use transglutaminase to recombine it and form into sheets and then fry.
+
+[16:24] Which transglutaminase do I use? Uh I have your guide. Transglutaminase is the enzyme that uh glues proteins together. But it doesn't really go into something like this. I just assume GB.
+
+[16:34] Uh so GB is a greatest bond. The different transglutin, well, I'll finish the question. Since I'm deep frying, but I imagine there are other considerations in the choice that I'm unaware of. I know that I'll have to mess with ratios of uh different skins, thicknesses, etc. etc.
+
+[16:47] But any advice uh would be appreciated. Uh also just check uh knowing it won't be horrible failure uh is always appreciated. I don't think it'll be horrible failure. It might not work, but I don't think it'll be a horrible failure. Um I have some model recipes that make this make sense from modernist cuisine.
+
+[17:01] Um they have uh traditional chicharron where you pressure cook the skin and then dehydrate it and fry it. Uh by the way, I don't know that pressure cooking the pork skins in the traditional recipe is necessary. Nastasi and I used to make them constantly, unfortunately. And they you smell terrible when you're making when you're when you're cooking off pork skins and then scraping them because you have to scrape the fat off the back to get good kind of expansion. How bad do your hands smell, Nastasia?
+
+[17:27] We mostly did beaver, which was gross. Yeah, we did. Well, we did a bunch of beaver flapper, that is true. But I just remember we used to we couldn't do beaver flapper for big events because we never had that much of it. But do you remember when we got that whole, we would get whole cases of pork skin in, and then we would be there with the interns like scraping all of the stuff at all of the stations in the Italian kitchen?
+
+[17:44] Like because we only had like an hour and a half. So I was like, get them in the get them in the water. We'd have to boil them. When you boil them, when you're done boiling, what you're doing is you're converting all of the collagen to gelatin. Then when the collagen is turned into gelatin, there's a little bit of other proteins and connective tissue in there that don't uh solubilize, and but that's the only strength of the pork skin, right?
+
+[18:10] So you have to let it cool completely before you even touch it because a pork skin that's th thoroughly cooked through won't even hold its own weight when you lift it. It'll just tear, right? But when you let it cool off and the gelatin sets, it's strong enough to mess with. That's when you scrape off the back, and that's when your hands start smelling like pork skin, which is just nasty. In the same way that like pork stock, John, give me some give me some dropping you some knowledge on the pork stock.
+
+[18:35] Uh yeah, really unpleasant. Stinky, not fun. Had to make it one back when I worked at the breath one. We added pork shanks for the chicken stock. Um but yeah, stinky.
+
+[18:46] But why did you do do you think it made the stock better? I don't think so. She thought it added I mean, I guess it does add more gelatin and body to the stock, but I don't know. I I couldn't see necessarily a purpose on it. I'd rather just throw in more chicken feed or something like that.
+
+[19:02] Or how about this people? I don't know if you guys have thought of this before. You know what you can add to stock to give it more gelatin if you already like the flavor? Gelatin, powder gelatin. Gelatin.
+
+[19:13] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I if you like the flavor of what you're working with and want to add gelatin, how's about gelatin instead of stinky, stinky pork uh bones? Because here's the other thing, like other people are like, oh, well, what you do is you take the pork bones and then you put them in cold water, and then you bring the water up just to the simmer, and then you scrape all of the stink off, throw that water away, and then make a real stock where you're just getting the gelatin out of the bones and not all that stinky pork stock flavor, or just use gelatin.
+
+[19:48] I'm just saying. Um, all right. Uh and then uh Chef Steph's makes chicken noodles where they grind chicken and then glue it to form it into a sheet using Activa RM and then cut it into noodles and steam them. Uh this that okay, so look, the the transglutaminase noodle thing goes back to Wiley Dufresne, my brother-in-law, who one of his most famous WD recipes, WE50 recipes, was um shrimp noodles, where he just mixed shrimp and transglutaminase and salt, and then extruded it out of like one of those Japanese noodle press presses into water, and the noodles would instantly set into noodles that could be uh eaten like pasta. It was a great dish, it was a great idea.
+
+[20:31] He was very mad that uh uh Ajinamoto, the company that makes um Activa, R, which is the um transglutaminase, that they had uh basically stopped him from patenting any process because they had the way that they had organized their patents, they were very good at it. So he couldn't get any intellectual property protection out of that kind of discovery, even though he really did do that. Um one of his second great things, this is more uh apropos of what you're asking here, Alex, is he also invented the vegetable sheet noodle, where you use uh you actually take, like I said before, gelatin. So it's not gonna matter much which activa he uses. He was, I believe, using Activa Ti, which for the gelatin ones, which is strong.
+
+[21:15] So the Activa RM, which is the old school standard one, is uh is gelatin, sorry, is milk protein casein plus enzyme plus filler. Um greatest bond and the casein is the glue molecule that it's using to glue with the the helper glue. GB, the one that you mentioned, greatest bond, is uh a mixture of gelatin and uh enzyme and filler. Uh Wiley used TI, which is just enzyme and filler, and then gelatin, because he's like, I'll add the amount of gelatin I want, thanks, which I think is a good idea. And the what happens when you um crosslink gelatin with um uh activa is it becomes non-thermoreversible.
+
+[22:02] So in other words, the gelatin won't melt anymore, assuming that you cross-link it enough and use a gelatin of high enough uh polymerization. So what he did is he would take any sort of vegetable you want, mix it with uh gelatin, add transglutaminase, sheet it into noodles, let it sit for over a day so it can fully uh fully react, and then those noodles would be non-thermal reversible. You could make vegetable noodles that you could then boil in in in water and they wouldn't break apart. Now, um you can do this and uh you're gonna have to test because the way that uh pork rinds work is that the uh hold on one second. Sorry, uh the dogs were locked in a room, and then whenever they get unlocked from the room, they run around with happiness.
+
+[22:55] Oh, yeah, I totally just muted John thinking that that's what those dogs are. Anyways, so uh where was I? So it like the pork rinds um work because gelatin that is dried becomes plastic again as it heats up. So do some tests. I think it'll probably work.
+
+[23:17] Uh Wiley said he thinks it'll probably work. I texted him. Uh give it a shot. It's not probably it's you know, duh, do one or two strips before you uh uh put the whole thing in your fryer and falafel up the bottom of it like I did, uh, which is a nightmare. Uh uh long time that we've had this on the on the thing for a long time and we haven't mentioned it, so I think we should bring it up.
+
+[23:40] You also have Dax Arnold on the code. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me one second. Mark from Cam Loops, Mark from Cam Loops says, and Dax can weigh in on this. Dax, are you there?
+
+[23:48] Yep. Muted him at you muted my own son? Yeah, I'm here, I'm here. Uh all right, Dax, see what you think about this. Uh Dax only cares about hip hops.
+
+[23:58] I think this is more of a rock band name, but Mark from Cam Loops says uh persistent pinking is a great name for a rock band. What do you guys think? Call it college rock band. Yeah. College rock band persistent pinking.
+
+[24:13] I guess. Persistent pinking, of course, is the problem that uh poultry and other meats have where they just won't turn gray as you cook them, no matter how high a heat you subject uh them to, which is a nightmare for people that won't eat that meat. All right now, Dax has a request for the cooking issues listeners. You know, go for it, Dax. Yeah, okay.
+
+[24:33] So my friends and I we've been trying to find like regular spray cranberry for the longest time. Not the winter spice, but like the regular stuff. If anyone out there like knows how to get it, please drag towards my dad. Uh I've been looking for it everywhere. And the only thing.
+
+[24:46] Why do you care about this, Dex? I mean, I care about it because I remember in 2018, I was able to just get it so easily I could just go to Target. My friends and I, we loved it. And then after that, it just went scarce. Like you just couldn't find it anymore.
+
+[24:57] I just want to have it again. Now, what's wrong with the winter spice cranberry sprite? I mean, nothing's wrong with it. It still tastes good, but like I just I still want the original. It's endorsed by Dram, right?
+
+[25:07] Yeah, and LeBron James. So these are two people you can do. It's endorsed by LeBron James, but Dram just helped to make the song. Yeah. Yeah, but it's not, it's it's it's to you, it just doesn't bring back your your childhood as as much as how do you know?
+
+[25:22] How do you know that it even exists? Now, just so you think that Dax is lazy. Dax has done his Googling, right? It's not available here, right? I mean it is, but I have to I'd have to pick it up in Alabama, and I have no means of getting there.
+
+[25:33] That's not here. Alabama is not here, Dax. And how do you know that it's actually available in Alabama? Did you call the store in Alabama and say, are you sure you have this or have you not updated your stock list from 2018? Yeah, no, I've been calling stores, checking stocks.
+
+[25:47] You called a store in Alabama. Yeah, because I thought they would deliver, but they don't. How are they gonna deliver? Dax, I might be making a rundown close to Alabama, meeting up with a brother-in-law from Alabama for the right price. I will get you some of this, but it's gonna be less.
+
+[26:07] If they're gonna make it at all, why would they only sell it in in Alabama? I don't know. That was just one of the stores that I saw. And what spice do you add to cranberry to make it into winter? What's a winter spice?
+
+[26:18] I I I don't know. Every store between here in Alabama. I mean, like, I've checked a bunch of stores within like 10 mile radius. Bike bike radius. So here's another thing.
+
+[26:31] Dax, by the way, I've to mention mentioned this on the show. Dax is a soda smuggler. Do you guys know this? Soda sm okay. Yeah.
+
+[26:40] So Dax, there's a there's a vape shop that, aside from vaping, which you know, I do not endorse, uh, they also deal in international sodas. And so uh Dax has purchased some limited edition sodas from them for exorbitant amounts of money. But then when we were in Belgium right before the pandemic, he noticed a rare soda. Which one was it, Dax? It's like Fanta exotic.
+
+[27:06] That's what it's like. Fanta exotic. Yeah. And so he bought like 30 pounds, like, you know, like however many two-liter bottles, like 30 pounds of Fanta exotic and stuffed his suitcase with it and brought it, you know, whatever the weight limit was, that's how much you know, Fanta exotic he brought back into the country. And what'd you do, Dax?
+
+[27:29] I sold it to him. Yeah, sold it. He's a like like Dax is a legitimate rare soda dealer. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[27:39] I mean, all right. All right. So uh you guys have heard his request. If anyone has the hookup and knows how Dax can get, but don't don't come in here with your winter spice sprites, cranberry sprites. That is that is what a joker would do.
+
+[27:54] I'm telling you right now, Dax has already had the winter sp uh spice sprites. I still have some in my possession. And he's fine with it. He's not hating. If anyone hears this who is involved with winter's winter spice cranberry Sprite, he's not against you.
+
+[28:12] He just wants some OG. Am I right about this, Dax? That is exactly correct. Yeah. Do you have anything else before you sign off?
+
+[28:14] Are you good? By the way, Dax told his teachers, because he's theoretically in quote unquote. Well, I'm not in class right now. I'm not in classroom. I got up.
+
+[28:28] You didn't have to lie. You mean you got up by saying you needed to go to the restroom? No, I didn't have to. Hey, for those of you that don't like have access to kids, what percentage of the kids in quote unquote online school now actually just turn off their cameras and their microphones and do whatever they want during their class sessions. I would assume all of them, but I don't know.
+
+[28:52] I'm not around. But seriously, Dax, give me a number. What percentage? I mean, I I don't know. Like the I don't know who's doing what behind the camera.
+
+[29:02] So they're not there. Oh, so you think that some of them have turned their camera off, muted themselves, and are diligently studying what the teacher is saying. I can tell you what percentage are doing that. Uh yeah, anyway. That's a little little insight, little insight into the state of our schools, people.
+
+[29:20] Well, thanks, Dax, for that uh that plea for Sprite. Thank you. All right. Bye guys. Uh and uh oh, Nastasia doing the booker goodbye.
+
+[29:30] I love it. Only Nastasia and I know give me the booker goodbye again, Staz. I can't, because it's not I can't not do it. Because you can't hang up. Oh, you okay.
+
+[29:39] Let me so Nastasia said that she has to leave hard at one because she has to go do stuff, right? So when you when it comes time for you to leave. Just gonna do it to do the book or goodbye so everyone can get the book or goodbye. All right. Yes.
+
+[29:52] Don't forget. I will not. Alright, alright. This episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens.
+
+[30:07] We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash. We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables.
+
+[30:24] Because there's the thing: less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away. It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal, food gone good.
+
+[30:45] Learn more at appeal.com. That was uh a while ago. Listen, Joe, we understand this. We have we have given this question to Adam, right? So when Adam gets back to us, I will tell you the answer to your to what he says about your rye bread.
+
+[31:22] Did you text him, babe? I texted him, but I did the lazy person's text, which is I literally took a picture of my email that uh had uh Joe's question about rye bread in it and texted him the picture. So when you look at it, it looks like a dot matrix printer. You know how pictures of of monitors look like weird little squares in Yum Hama? Because of the aliasing effect?
+
+[31:43] Yeah. Uh all right. Did you text him, like do you passive aggressively text him a picture of you having already forwarded him or like the email that you sent him? I I would appreciate I didn't send him an email. I think Nastasia sent him an email.
+
+[31:58] Okay. Yeah, but you didn't ask any question under the photo. You just sent the photo with no context? No. I okay, okay.
+
+[32:06] Here's just so you guys can judge or not judge, this is what I said. This is how I write texts. Howdy, Dave Arnold here. I hope you are well. That's my standard.
+
+[32:17] Then I said, I had a question from a listener on your rye recipe. Thought I'd go to the source, sorry so last minute. I sent it today and I texted him a picture of the question. Is that an acceptable way to do this? I'd say he's not gonna get back to you.
+
+[32:33] Like ever? Yeah. Okay. Alright. Alright.
+
+[32:40] Uh, so I did a little more research uh on a question um that came in a while ago. So let's uh and I think I have an answer for you. Lisa Somerville uh wrote in, uh, and remember we said this before, but she is 43 female, married, and buys any gadget she wants. Uh, and both for uh the home and for the bakery that she owns with her husband. Um anyway, so um what she said was is that she had a student uh who used to tell her about a German bakery where she used to work that made their own quote unquote vanilla flavor by combining prune juice and vodka.
+
+[33:15] I'd never heard of this, so I tried it. Equal parts prune juice and vodka. At first it was terrible, but after letting the mixture sit at room temperature for a week or two, it tasted surprisingly like vanilla. My question is, why does this work? I'm also curious about the history of this, but I'm guessing it comes from a time when vanilla beans couldn't be transported because of wartime.
+
+[33:30] Any insight on this would be appreciated. Thanks. Love the show, Lisa. Alright, I did a little more digging, and there is nothing, nothing that I was able to find on there being actual vanillin in prune juice. Now, what I did find was W.
+
+[33:46] Dennis wrote an article in the Journal of Industrial and Engineering Chemistry in April 1911, saying the detection of prune juice and caramel in vanilla flavoring extracts. And then it said the for that this is from 19, actually 1910, October 12, 1910. I guess it was published in April 11 then. The foreign coloring materials mostly most frequently used in the preparation of factitious vanilla flavoring extracts are caramel, prune juice, comma, and coal tar dyes. And so, and they are it was more difficult to uh do detection tests for prune juice than uh caramel coloring.
+
+[34:26] Uh so anyway, uh I think that this practice started um as a way to make fake vanilla look more uh by the way, fake vanilla is all based on vanillin. And vanillin was one of the very first isolated uh organic flavor molecules, and also one of the first ones to be synthesized uh in the laboratory, and it played a huge role in the development of the flavor industry. In fact, it was one of the main pillars of the flavor exhibit that the Museum of Food and Drink did way back way back in the day. Uh and it was actually a German, going back to Germany in the um in the 1870s, that had the first factory that was producing artificial vanilla, make uh vanillin, producing vanillin to make artificial uh vanilla. It at the beginning it was quite expensive, but by the time this century rolled rolled around by the mid-20s, well, last century, sorry, my my century, then the 1900s.
+
+[35:22] Um, when uh in the 20s and 30s, they figured out how to make it out of uh lignin, which is basically pulp, uh, and it became fantastically cheaper. But early, I think people were using prune juice and other things with a little bit of vanillin to make a closer fake vanilla than just a clear um a clear vanilin would be. Uh so I don't I think it's probably maybe reminiscent of it from a color thing, but I couldn't find any actual chemical uh overlap. Um interesting, uh, did you know? And I did not know this, that prune juice is a common additive in tobacco for smoking because it adds sweetness and it has a couple of other things, but it harshes the it harshes it, and some cigarettes are up to a half of a percent.
+
+[36:08] The tobacco is up to half a percent of uh of prune juice. Did you be aware of this? I was not. Yeah. And also uh on uh prune juice as being the uh laxative extraordinaire for uh for the old geezer community, uh which I'm rapidly approaching, uh the Sun Sweet Corporation uh says that it is not just the high fiber in prune juice that that gets your motor running, uh it but it contains more sorbitol, which is uh a laxative in large ingredients than most other fruit juices.
+
+[36:43] So there is the uh poopfactive uh element of the uh prune juice for you. So that's a little bonus you're getting in your prune juice research today. You like that? A little bonus? Yeah.
+
+[36:54] Yeah. Uh okay, now listen, Michael Vahabi wrote in about uh panettone. Now we'll have a discussion now. Nastasia. You don't like panettone, right?
+
+[37:04] Is that one of the things you don't like? I do, I like it. Oh. Who do I know that doesn't like it then? I know someone in my family or like close friend doesn't like it.
+
+[37:14] Now I gotta figure out who it is. I just assumed it was my biscuit hating friend Nastasia, but huh? Alright then. Well, so John was proposing who are you proposing trying to get on, John? Um the guy Roy from Panatone by Roy, who apparently makes excellent pentatones.
+
+[37:31] Alright. So should we should we save this? So the question was on um for the Panatone, they make a very stiff starter called a pasta madre, and there's lots of things about do you have to wrap it in this and boopoo and boop bee? So maybe we should just hold this off and and you know, in case we get him on, we can we can ask him, no. Yeah.
+
+[37:49] Alright. If that's what we want to do. Umastas, what is your was it Matt that doesn't like it? No. No.
+
+[37:57] Matt doesn't care. What are your guys' thoughts on uh using it in a French toast uh style situation? Good. That sounds great. Yeah?
+
+[38:09] Yeah. It it's so if you don't find it to be gilding the lily. No. Yeah, not at all. What about Brioche French toast?
+
+[38:18] Highly in favor. Huh. What about actual old school French toast like Pamper Du style, where it's like started out as like a stiffer, more rustic bread. You let it actually freaking stale, and then it's you have to soak it up with like a a lot of liquid because it that bread is actually kind of gone into its zone. Any of you guys like that style of French toast?
+
+[38:42] It's a much firmer French toast. I just did that last week. Would you prefer the softer, more kind of uh, you know, uh like the brioche slash where where there's already like a bullet. No, I mean that would be that would be nice, but no, I like having the option to to make use of the stale bread via the the old school way of doing that. I wonder what percentage of French toast that is made uses stale bread, roughly zero, like not zero, but like very small amount, right?
+
+[39:12] I think most people make French toast with bread that you could actually eat right now and be happy with. I think so. Especially because what percentage of French toast is eaten in restaurants, probably a very high percentage. Like diner style restaurants. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:29] Do you know what I tried to emulate once? And I I think I've mentioned it on the show, and all of you guys, I think would have just missed this. Uh well, Nastasia would have just missed it, you guys would have missed it by a lot. But there used to be a restaurant called the Royal Canadian Pancake House, where Sylvester Stallone went, I've mentioned this to bulk up for Copland. And their whole shtick uh was you know, giant size things, and they used to take, I think it was like a whole hala or some sort of like egg-heavy, could have been like could have been a brioche, but it was a whole loaf of bread, and they somehow sliced it so that it opened up almost like a blooming onion, and then they soaked it, and then they developed a deep fry basket where they just put the entire loaf into the deep fryer at once and deep-fried it to make this like ridiculous, like absurd, really, when you think about it.
+
+[40:18] French toast. I have to say, was not bad. And then I tried recreating it once, I was unable. So if any of you have the recipe for the Royal Canadian Pancake house whole deep fried French toast, because it was never important enough for me to run through all the tests it would take to actually recreate it. But that sounds like kind of a fun party trick once more than three people are allowed to get in the same room again together, right?
+
+[40:43] Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Stephen Bass wrote in via email, could you please share the spec for the cornstar from the old Booker Index? Cornstar with a C, corn, uh was uh a recipe by Austin Hennley, who is now he's still at Major Domo, right?
+
+[41:03] Major Domo Reopener, everything's closed now again in LA, but um uh anyway, from Austin Hennley, and the recipe was first you had to make uh corn infused rye. And for that recipe, he used knob creek rye, and it was a 750 of knob creek, and then 150 grams of freeze-dried corn powder. Uh we got it from Milk Bar because I think they used to use that in their corn cookies, right? Uh, but I think you could probably just crush up uh freeze-dried corn. Uh, then he ISI'd it for two minutes, uh, you know, with you know, my rapid infusion technique, probably with two chargers and a liter bottle, and then strained it and uh pressed it and then put it in a centerfuge to get rid of the solid.
+
+[41:46] So that was a pain in the butt to make. And then once you made that, it was that, then a half ounce of lemon juice, and a quarter ounce of JM cane, which is an expensive cane syrup, but jam cane is a lot thinner than Steen's, which is the corn syrup I've been using uh at the house, which is delicious, so you'd have to adjust the recipe a little bit because uh steens won't jigger, but uh jam Cain probably will. 11 dashes of black pepper bitters. I think they used a simplified liquid intelligence recipe. So my recipe for black pepper bitters uses cubebs, grains of paradise, and several different kinds of black pepper.
+
+[42:22] Cubebs, underused, love cubebs. Uh also love the word. Stas, what do you think of the word cubebs? Cube. Yeah, right?
+
+[42:30] It's got two B's in it with it. How often do you get words like that? Cubebs. Um I think they simplified it, they just use black peppers because no one wanted to go buy all the stuff. And uh, four drops of saline solution, that's a 20% saline solution.
+
+[42:43] Shake it on a shake it on uh on a big old rock, pour it over a fresh big old rock, and serve it with a snack. No, no, it was served in a coop and uh put snack mix on the side. I'll have to say uh that drink made it on the menu because Austin decided, everyone always decided whenever we would have these kind of meetings. This is both at existing conditions, even at the French culinary with the interns. Anytime I would say I hate something, someone would be like, That's the thing I'm gonna make for you and make you like it.
+
+[43:10] Stas, true or false. Everyone always does this with me. No, because if everyone did that to you, you'd have a lot more things. Everyone's scared of you. So the people that actually do it that make it through are lower than you think.
+
+[43:23] You mean the number of them? Yep. Anyway, so I say, like, I don't like corn drinks. I've tried making corn drinks. Nastasi and I have made several disgusting corn drinks, true or false.
+
+[43:34] Yeah. Yeah. And because we had to, because we were forced to, right? And um, and so at one of these meetings, I was like, listen, because everyone's always like, what about corn and a drink? And I'm like, I was like, you could try every single one that I've had, I've hated, and I've tried it.
+
+[43:49] You know, I've tried corn juice, I've tried corn blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And um, and so, like, you know, through dogged persistence, like he got this one that made it on the menu, but it was still something I would never order. But apparently, uh, Steven, you ordered it, had it, liked it, and want the recipe. So there it is. There you have it.
+
+[44:08] Um, and by the way, when you're working on a menu, I think it's a good idea to let multiple, you need to discern whether something is just something you don't like or whether it's bad, and it's hard, which is why you should always take input from everyone around you and have multiple people tasting. Because there's plenty of stuff that I don't like that is uh is good, right? Anyway. Uh okay. Uh Brandon wrote in a sorry, Styze, you're gonna have to earmuff because it's a a bread baking question.
+
+[44:43] Question for you on bread baking. In my research on the science of bread baking, I found detailed breakdowns of the impact of almost every variable on the final loaf except for one, the temperature of the dough when it goes into the oven. Assuming you were following traditional preheated oven and preheated Dutch oven technique as opposed to cold oven and uh cold Dutch oven. Um, which by the way, okay, I'm not gonna get into that. It would I would have to spend all time just talking about that, so I won't even talk about that.
+
+[45:09] Uh, how does the temperature of the dough impact oven spring? Milk Street's pizza recipe started uh my hunt for this information is they call for putting the dough in a bowl and floating the bowl in hot water until it reaches 75 degrees. Uh the warming step causes uh a lot more rise and air bubbles versus uh um dough straight from the fridge or sitting sitting at room temp. I guess it depends on your room temp, right? Uh I make a focacci like flatbread regularly and find the dough temp makes a big difference on the rise and crumb texture.
+
+[45:34] Shaping the dough in a sheet pan and floating it uh on hot water for 30 minutes um results in a fantastic rise in crumb, regardless of proof level. Um, I'm wondering whether or not you're getting a I'm wondering whether or not you're getting a differential, right? Because you're lowering the bottom surface of it. So you're reactivating the yeast that's at the bottom, but not at the top, and so you're starting to expand the air bubbles in the bottom faster than you are on the top, which is maybe creating kind of the structure that you want. I mean, clearly, like all the research points to the to the fact that um the bubbles that are in the any bread that you make are actually there from the kneading and folding, and they've been expanded by the gas that's coming off of the yeast, but that the yeast, it's not possible for the yeast to actually initiate its own kind of um its own kind of air pocket, which is why even in your no-need, uh right, you're making that shaggy dough that's getting some air in it.
+
+[46:34] And there's always one or two folds and flop doodles of it to try to get some air into it. And then even so, because of the high hydration, but also because of that kind of lack of kneading, you're getting these big old uh air bubbles. So my guess is that if there is a differential effect and have someone chime in or tell me I'm wrong or send us some information so I can talk about it more uh next week. Um, but my guess is that if there is an effect, you're getting an effect by differentially heating the bottom versus the top and just uh stratifying where the yeast is reactivating first. Is that a good enough answer?
+
+[47:05] Was that within your we we we went off the uh ding, Stas. We want to go back on the ding someday. I mean, yeah, but sure. It worked. We only tried it once, right?
+
+[47:16] Yeah. You liked it, didn't you? I liked it, but it's it's uh a lot of work. But yeah, we can do it. I mean, if you look, if you don't think it's worth it, don't do it.
+
+[47:25] If you like it, do it. It's up to you. Uh Patrick wrote in spin's all question. Have you ever had the clear did I did I talk about this already? Have you ever had the clear dirty martini at the new Hemingway bar at the Paris Ritz?
+
+[47:37] No. I've not been to the new Paris Ritz. Anyway, uh it's a clear liquid, and they put a I mean, I wish. I love Paris. You guys, I mean, I know John likes freaking Paris.
+
+[47:47] What about you, Stuzz? Are you a Paris fan or not a fan? Yes. Why do you say it like that? You're not a fan of a lot of things that people really like.
+
+[47:57] I I could see you not liking Parrots just because everybody loves Paris so much, out of all proportion to what they should love it. That's all. I'm just asking. God. Um it is a clear liquid, and they put a clear ice cube at the bottom with an olive inside of the clear ice cube, but it tastes dirty, the martini now.
+
+[48:19] Tastes dirty despite being clear. Even when the ice cube melts, do you think they are using clarified olive juice for that ice cube? I doubt it because the dirtiness, aside from any flavors, is uh salt uh and other things, and you can't freeze that stuff into uh into the you know into it. It would make it not clear and it would get frozen out. So you can you can have an inclusion like a whole olive, right, and then freeze clear ice around it, but you can't have a you can't have something clear that has like a lot of flavor in the actual clear part of the ice.
+
+[48:56] Now, that's my guess. Uh someone could tell me that I'm wrong and they've done it, in which case I will update my answer, but that's my guess. My guess is that it is tasting less dirty as it melts until you get to the olive, which might be surrounded by a portion of brine, where it will then re-dirty it. Just a guess. Um hold and Trout uh gave a good technique via email.
+
+[49:16] Um, a few things to pass along on one of the last episodes, uh Dave mentioned his experiments with the silicone stasher bags. Uh, which are, by the way, they're those uh those silicone kind of Ziploc bags uh that that I think the thing that I think is interesting about them is that um they can be retorted in even ovens, so you don't have to worry about throwing them into boiling water. In fact, in my freezer right now, I have leftover stuffing in two stasher bags that I use this uh technique on. Uh because don't you hate when you take a Ziploc bag out of the freezer and you throw it into hot water and the hot water gets a little too hot and the bag loses its integrity or it touches the bottom of the pan or the side and melts out and then liquid gets in when you're reheating. Does this happen to anyone but me?
+
+[50:01] Just me. Uh okay. Uh and so Holden wrote in and said, you know, how I said I wasn't able to get uh all the air out the way that I do with uh Ziploc bags and a bag of water. And uh he has this technique uh when he points us to a YouTube where they do it, where uh you put the stasher bag inside of a like a manual vacuum bag, and then you suck a vacuum on that, and you can then suck it in, and it does work quite well. Be careful when you do it though, don't seal the stasher bag before you put it in, or the air inside the stasher bag will inflate, reopen the seal of the stasher bag, possibly with consequential amounts of spilling out of the one stasher bag into your vacuum bag.
+
+[50:49] I'm not gonna tell you how I know that. Uh also recently heard, it's just uh Holden Trout again. Recently heard the episode uh where I was talking about the River Cottage Cookbook as a classic in the field, and wanted to let us know that when they published the American edition of the book, they took out the my favorite part of the book, which is the cute farm animals with the butchery diagrams drawn over them. Shame on you, American publisher, shame on you. Um Lackland Bissett wrote in uh from Australia and saw on Kickstarter something called IXON, which is a preservative-free meat you can store at room temperature, and wondered what my opinion of it was.
+
+[51:27] So they have this thing that they call advanced sous-vide aseptic packaging, and you know, it's a product that is commercially sterile, i.e., it doesn't require refrigeration, meats in vacuum bags. Um I'm interested in it, um, Lackland, but the problem is that nowhere on the site do they tell you how they do it. Nowhere do they tell you kind of like something like a food preservation technology. Like I want to see, I want to see what they're doing. So I think the problem is that they probably don't have enough protection on the process to be able to tell you exactly why they how they do it.
+
+[52:02] And in the absence of that, I can't say whether I think it's great, right? So it could be like it's probably based on some sort of multiple hurdle technology, so some level of salt, some level of heat pasteurization, perhaps with um irradiation, perhaps with UV, perhaps with high pressure, who knows? Uh right, so like one thing that's possible is that they could have super high pressure, like pressure that's enough to uh sterilize something in without using any heat, typically is high enough to also degrade meat texture, which is why you don't see it very often on things other than like oysters and whatnot. But um, but maybe like through multiple hurdle technology, they can do a lower pressure with it and like a cook, but they don't tell you what they're doing. So irritating.
+
+[52:48] Uh Jared is gold wrote in via Instagram. Quick question: uh, what do you think is a good temp to a good temperature to low temp half a chicken with the backbone uh with with cut in half with the backbone in? I beware the backbone, your low temp, just like I say, like uh talking about persistent pinking, stuff coming out of the backbone can cause some persistent pinking. Trying to have a nicely cooked leg and thigh without a fibrosis breast, a fibroy breast. Uh, thanks, love the show.
+
+[53:14] Um, all right, so the breast is gonna be taste cooked, but look trans. Some people can tolerate translucent-looking breasts and thigh meat. Most of us can't. So if you can tolerate it, just be aware that other people can't, and so cook it a little higher. Uh, 63 is the minimum temperature on breasts, however, 64.5 or so is the lowest temperature on thigh, but in reality, I would say probably 65 is safe to get it up within a reasonable uh amount of time.
+
+[53:42] I would still at 65 salt the breast beforehand to try to um you know increase its water holding capacity at that um temperature. But I I typically do it at like 65. If I'm doing something big, I'll even do 66. Anything much over that, and you're gonna start having uh problems. But hit these are all in Celsius, by the way.
+
+[54:01] Um Colin Hughes wrote in via Instagram. Hey, I have a question. What do you think of ceramic slash pottery mixing glasses? I'd guess that they have a super high thermal mass and would make drinks uh inconsistent. Can you add any ins uh insights into that?
+
+[54:15] Thanks. Uh yeah, that's exactly correct. Uh, however, you can use it if you want, but you have to pre-chill it all the time. And so the way to do that is to always store your mixing glass full of uh ice and water. Uh and so when everyone at the bar decided that they didn't like stirring in tins anymore and they want to stir in fancy Uri-looking glasses, I said that's fine, but if I ever see you uh not having a pre-chilled Uri glass, you mix in, then I'll yell at you and take your head off, and I'll point to this very moment where we've had this conversation where you said that you would be religious about doing that, and I will tell you what a liar you are.
+
+[54:55] And I didn't actually do that to them during service, but I will say that during service occasionally uh I would see it happening. Um, but just be aware that it will affect it, and so uh in certain drinks, actually, if you're if you're working in a bar, right? Then you have to make it consistent. So I would make sure that they're always pre-chilled, always just keep ice and water in them all the time. Uh at home, uh, there are certain drinks that actually want more dilution.
+
+[55:22] So drinks where you know you have to stir longer, well, might as well instead of stirring it longer, uh, I mean, if you stirring it longer will make it colder as well. But if that's not a benefit in a particular drink, because it's not always a benefit, then um just use one that's not pre-chilled. I mean, it's it's gonna be a drink-by-drink basis, but from a consistency standpoint, uh, you are correct. Um, Thomas wrote in, uh, I'm having exhaust fan issues in my rental kitchen. The exhaust fan is clearly not powerful enough for any real cooking.
+
+[55:51] Are there any solutions to this problem? Are anyone are any home kitchen fans good? No, because uh with my experience, they all seem to be crap. Your experience has also been my experience, Thomas. Uh, thanks for your time.
+
+[56:02] Warm regards, Thomas. Um, I mean, look, the the the best thing you're gonna get out of most situations is the box fan in uh your window. If you're a little bit handy, um, what I would do for the kitchen window, it's ugly, so you know be aware. Is uh if you really can't afford to do good work, get a piece of wood, buy uh fans, the the circular fans that are meant to be mounted into holes that you cut, cut the hole, try to do a nice job, route it out if you can, right? And then bolt two fans in, right?
+
+[56:40] Side by side that basic that take up basically the whole width of your window. And you'll see this a lot in kind of illegal uh illegal venting down near where I live, down here in lower Manhattan. And then uh lower the top window, not the bottom one, the top window. Because remember, all this hot stuff that you want to evacuate accumulates high and then rolls down. So put it up high, right, across the entire window, and then screw it into the window uh so they can't pop out, and that's gonna be, and you can put a speed control on the board that you have there and then run a wire to it.
+
+[57:16] And that's gonna be the best bet for a rental because it doesn't actually do any modification, doesn't require you to modify the wall. No landlord is gonna see one little scroll hole in the side of your window jam, and that's what that's that's what I would do. But it can look really ugly. Most of the people that do it use real crappy uh CDX plywood, and so it looks very provisional. You guys have all seen this uh walking around Manhattan, right?
+
+[57:38] This style of vent. Yeah. Looks garbage, but you can make it look better. I mean, I don't know how much the looks is important. I don't know whether you can see the kitchen from all over the rest of the apartment or not.
+
+[57:48] Uh all right. Uh, and remember, never call it uh a hood or a vent. Because the reason those once you put once you put cooking exhaust into a pipe, you then have to worry about fire, right? Because the stuff that builds up in the pipe can catch fire and cause a real bad kind of uh fire effect, the fire shooting out. Um so be aware.
+
+[58:14] Uh Zachary Stewart wrote in uh by email. In college, I learned the trick for bad coffee or bad beer was to put a shake of salt in it. There hey in college, there was no such thing. I love how, like, you know, I'm glad that people are much uh fancier now in college. There was no such thing as bad beer in college.
+
+[58:31] There was only beer we couldn't afford. The best beer in college was free beer. You guys familiar with this? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[58:38] Yeah. Yeah. My favorite beer in college was whatever was free. Um, right? I mean, and and even like liquor, the best liquor for a while was free because we had no money.
+
+[58:51] Uh, but anyway, uh, I'm glad that people are beyond that now. Because as soon as you can afford to not drink complete swill, you should. I'm not saying you should spend scads of money. Anyway, uh, I learned that the trick for bad coffee or bad beer was to put a shake of salt in it. Despite the hundreds of hours of coffee talk from Dave, I've never heard of him talk about putting salt in.
+
+[59:09] So salt and coffee, sometimes, always or never, Zach from Pittsburgh P.S. In real life, I'm not a inser. Alright, listen, there's a good point. I'm surprised I've never mentioned it. Uh I do not put salt in my espresso.
+
+[59:22] Maybe I should try it, but I do add a pinch of salt when I'm adding the sugar to my wife's lattes. So when I'm doing milk in coffee, I will add uh a small. Oh, that's the booker goodbye, people. That's the booker goodbye. Strong.
+
+[59:41] I mean, I'll talk to her about it later when she's done. That's that's strong. That's how it works. You could be in the middle of a sentence, and Booker will give you the book of goodbye. Just like that.
+
+[59:49] Very polite, happy. Yeah. He's glad he's glad he's spoken to you. Uh-huh. He's not at all upset.
+
+[59:56] And he's hanging up now. And he's gone. Goodbye. Um, so yeah, so I put it basically in coffee with milk. But John, have you ever put coff uh salt into coffee that doesn't have milk?
+
+[1:00:08] No, I guess not. No. I've tried putting the salt in the coffee with milk and I never didn't really notice a difference, but I guess the father. Did you try it before and after? No.
+
+[1:00:19] That's the trick. I haven't tried it because I don't like coffee with milk, so I'm a bad judge. Uh I just do it because it's just kind of instinct for me to do it. But for someone who has tested it, let us know. I've never tried it with beer.
+
+[1:00:30] You ever tried it with beer? No, I've never heard about that with beer. Actually, I've never heard anyone say that with beer, yeah. I mean, the problem with adding salt to beer is that it foams like a weasel, right? Because you're throwing nucleation sites into your beer.
+
+[1:00:44] So back but but back at the at the bar at the end of the night when we were having our shift to cate's, um, I would uh invariably pour in cr Clary Lime and uh saline solution, though. And that's great. Clarified lime and saline topping off a tacate is good. I would prefer it to have been a negromadello, but we didn't stock that. We had to do it.
+
+[1:01:10] What's your what are your favorite cheap Mexican beers? Uh I always go. I was always served chicate, but we also my favorite kid post ship drink was uh Miller High Life, one of the restaurants. I don't always had that for us. The champagne of beers, huh?
+
+[1:01:26] Yep. Yeah. So I think if they were all lined up, I'd go Negro Modelo. Although, because of college experiences, I have like a very fond soft spot for my memory of Dose Eckeys. Really?
+
+[1:01:38] I haven't had one in years, so that tells you something right there. For those of you for those of you that have like never seen Matt, he kind of looks like a young, like longer haired version of the Dos X guy. Like if you had his facial hair, you could be the Dose X guy when you're older, dude. I'll look into that. I don't know about that one.
+
+[1:02:01] Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, at towards the end of existing conditions, we we used to have, you know, the Miller Pony was what we always garnish. The Corsair was one of my favorite drink that I would get there. Uh and uh which is the preserved lemon drink, preserved lemon, tequila, uh lime, and a little bit of sugar and some spice.
+
+[1:02:22] And uh towards the end we couldn't get the Miller ponies anymore. Uh and so they had the modello ponies, which were amazing, but they were the uh especialito ones. Uh and I prefer negro modello to the the to this special one. You uh yeah, I would just do Negro Modello. Yeah, Negro Modello, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:02:43] Uh wait, what was the Corsair recipe? Because I preserved lemons in the fridge and I love tequila. Do you have a centrifuge? Oh god. All right, next.
+
+[1:02:53] Uh that's a good John. Did you you uh Corsair wasn't your drink, we but like it's a good drink. Yeah, very good drink, yeah. Yeah, because it's like super salty and not it, like I don't know, I like it. Um Jason Thomas wrote in via Instagram.
+
+[1:03:10] I was hoping for a recommendation for a book on Gard Manger work. I'm a home cook and uh know that I'm not being resourceful enough at maximizing scraps and leftovers. Uh love the show. So I mean, most of the garde manger books that I have uh or that I have had aren't really about kind of what you would do with for garmenter in like a normal restaurant kitchen. It's more about kind of like fancy hotel buffet style garmenter stuff.
+
+[1:03:41] Do you ever John, what do you think about that? Have you ever seen one of a book that deals with kind of like the actual aspects of so Garmanger for those of you that aren't hip is uh like the cold the cold kitchen, right? So, you know, it's basically station where um you know any cold prep would get done. What'd you say? Salads, yeah.
+
+[1:03:59] Stuff you do you say salads? Anyway, cold apps, yeah, salads. Yeah, cold apps, salads. Uh and in a major hotel, it would also be where like the buffets are done. But I don't know of any books that deal with the aspect that that you're interested in.
+
+[1:04:15] I mean, like the the do you, John? No, not really. I mean, just with that, I would think more maybe it's better to like think about fermenting or you know, marinating scraps of whatever in vinegar, you know, to make like an apple scrap vinegar or something like that. I don't know. That seems more like what I would be looking into.
+
+[1:04:32] Right. I mean, the old school I mean, like, you know, honestly, like in a big kitchen, like unless you have a lot of a particular scrap, which happens all the time, like a lot of like kind of scraps just get bulked for stock and stuff like that, right? In terms of veg. Yeah. Um, but like classically, the you know, old school in the 80s, the book to beat was uh The Art of Garmanger uh by uh Sonnen Schmidt and uh John Nicholas.
+
+[1:04:58] That was kind of the book but it's more of uh like I'm looking at my edition which is from the 80s I have the fourth edition from the 80s and yeah it's all very precious buffet looking kind of stuff kind of not what you're looking for like roulades and whatnot the CIA then came out with uh you know the cooking school not the not the spy agency came out with uh a book that's gone through a bunch of editions but I've never owned it um I think called uh the art of a garmanger kitchen or something like this but if you are interested in buffets which I've never I've never owned it but I'm sure it's it's good um like the the it's already been a classic in the field but buffets and receptions is a sick book put out by Virtue Press V-I-R-T-U-E Virtue Press in the early 80s I think late 70s sick sick crazy uh again I would never recommend it you cook a whale but there is a recipe for cooking whale in there and specifically what kind of whale uh the other one you might want to look at is uh Professional Caterer series uh by Denis Rafel. Uh the first four volumes are more first three of the four volumes are more in the last one's more hot side stuff but again ooh all these books now are on my desk and they're about to fall give me a second yeah just to give you an idea of the weight of this uh stack of books that I'm telling you about it's this yeah I was wondering how you had all of these books at hand but they're just yeah piled around you. Well, I mean, the one good thing about recording this thing at home is that I can just go back to my to my bookshelf uh and get stuff. The problem is is that it's also hard to find stuff on on my on my bookshelf. Um Nate wrote in uh about uh the combi ANOVA countertop combi oven.
+
+[1:06:52] I have no experience with it. I think I mentioned that last week, but I'd like to put out there, uh I'd like to put out there uh anyone in the chat or who wants to write us who does have experience with this, let us know what they think. Uh and and obviously we're happy to uh test it out should someone want to ship us one to test. Um we're we're running running low on time. I'm missing a couple of questions.
+
+[1:07:16] Um, so we'll get to we'll get we have a carbonation question. Should we do the carbonation question just so Nastasia doesn't have to hear it? Yes, that seems go out on that one. All right, because Sergio Toom wrote in from Melbourne. He's a he is an Argentinian uh person in Australia, but Nastasia is mentioned so much in this that I can't read it after she's already done the book or goodbye on me.
+
+[1:07:39] Uh right. And then um the other one is a question about safety, so from Mark. So I don't want to go into that one uh half-assed, right? So because I don't want to give someone incorrect safety information that causes someone to God forbid get sick. So, uh from behind this wall on Instagram, hey, uh hey Dave, sorry uh for this uh out of the blue message.
+
+[1:08:06] Uh big fans of liquid intelligence have a question about applying your method for carbonation for my carbonation rig to corny kegs, as uh we're just we're getting the same results as we do in bottles. Any help much appreciated as we're looking to bulk up our operation into bottles. Uh cheers, Alex. Okay, I'm not exactly sure what the question is, but I'm gonna assume the question is this. I'm currently kegging cocktails and then dispensing them out of a keg into a glass and not getting as many bubbles as I want because that system is stealing the bubbles from my cocktail.
+
+[1:08:43] And I want to put it into bottles, but those bottles are also stealing the bubbles, and I'm not it's not any better than the kegs. This John, do you think that's that the question? I think so. If it's not, he can write back in and I will get them up to you next week for the radio show. The problem with um, look, certain drinks want to be highly carbonated, and certain drinks can be have a small amount of carbonation and still be delicious.
+
+[1:09:12] For instance, the Negroni can go anywhere from zero carbonation to full carbonation and be delicious at any point along the way. Uh things like you know, my gin and juice recipe, when they lose their carbonation, they lose their verve. So um, you know, so like I I have never been a fan of you know, uh of myself having a carbonation rig for cocktails because it's I've never gotten one that does exactly what I uh need to do. Uh someone rung my doorbell, so we'll see whether I hear from my dogs. Um that said, um, when you are carbonating in when we put stuff in bottles, the way we got the best result was to carbonate in two-liter bottles.
+
+[1:09:57] Um, like do force carbonation, make sure that it's ice cold, triple carb it, at least, at least triple carb it. Chill your bottles, but don't over-chill them. If your bottles are in the freezer, you're gonna lose all your bubbles because the minute you pour a carbonated drink into frozen glass, you'll get uh ice crystals forming on the inside of the frozen glass, nightmare nucleation sites. It's gonna be a nightmare for you. So, you what you want to do is fill them with ice water and then dump them out right before you fill them.
+
+[1:10:26] Uh that'll make sure there are no nucleation sites, pour in all the way almost to the top, leave a very small ulage, which is that little space at the top of a wine bottle, leave a very small space. That space is critical for a carbonation, and then uh and then cap it. Um, and that's kind of the best way that you're going to be able to. Now uh people have said they've had luck with counterpressure fillers. I have not had luck with a counterpressure filler, but if you do, God bless you, but still, you're gonna wanna keep your eulage as small as possible, and you're gonna want to make sure your bottles are cold as long as they're not below freezing.
+
+[1:11:01] All right, and then cap them immediately. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people and they're pouring the stuff out and they're sitting there and they're just letting it sit around, they're talking, they're chatting, they want to do 50 bottles at once and then go cap 50 bottles. No, pour like five bottles, cap, pour five bottles, cap, pour five bottles, cap, pour them all high, and you should get uh a decent result. If what you're saying is is that you can't get bottle carbonation with a carbonation cap to be any better than a um than a corny keg, that's a different problem. And there I would say it's probably a uh clarification problem, it's not cold enough, or you're not multiply carbonating uh like carbonating three times.
+
+[1:11:41] I even once saw where someone was injecting CO2 onto the top of the bottle and then removing the pressure and then shaking it. No, it needs to be connected to pressure while you are shaking it. So uh I answered either one of those two questions, but if those weren't the questions you wanted answered, then write on in again and I'll talk about it again after Nastasia does the book or goodbye because otherwise I'll hear about it later. Because we all know Nastasia. Hey, it's carbonation questions, true or false.
+
+[1:12:09] Truth. And Chef Joanna is in the chat and points out that the CIA book, the Garmanget, The Art and Craft of the Cold Kitchen, is cheap at Thrift Books. It is like seven or eight bucks. So cool. I think she had recommended it in the chat before you mentioned it, maybe.
+
+[1:12:29] Unclear on timing. All right. Well, there you go. All right, maybe uh I should not pick up a copy. Don't pick up a copy.
+
+[1:12:35] Don't pick up a copy. My house is littered with books. Anyway, uh, John, uh, people should look out for uh a new copy of the newsletter soon, correct? Correct. All right.
+
+[1:12:44] See you guys next week. Uh guest Melissa Weller on next week. Oh, we have Guest Melissa Weller. Uh, and uh what I just read her book. What's the title of the book again, John?
+
+[1:12:53] I can't remember. It's like sticky, what is it? Isn't it? Googling. A good bake, the art and science of making perfect pastries, cakes, cookies, pies, and breads at home.
+
+[1:13:05] A cookbook. Yeah, a good bake. And the cover of it, the reason I say sticky is the cover, she has like a like a baked good, like a babkey thing with like like a like the gooey, like that gooey kind of stuff poured over the top. And so anytime I think of it, I'm like sticky, shaky, right? Makes sense.
+
+[1:13:20] Yep. Anyway, so she's on the show next week. So uh if you have her book and you have a question, make sure to write it in early enough for John to get it to me. Uh, and we can talk about it. Because unfortunately, again, with the COVID, we can't have call-ins, so get your questions in on that.
+
+[1:13:36] Uh, and uh we'll uh talk to you next week. Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:13:51] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:14:14] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal, helping you to enjoy your fruits and vegetables at peak freshness and reduce food waste. Learn more at appeal.com, APEL.com. This week on Meet and Three, we dive into the science behind munchies, the history of coca, the therapeutic powers of psychedelics, and mushroom infused recipes. One of the biggest questions we get asked a lot is does heat degrade psilocybin? The coca leaf was used as a sacred plant.
+
+[0:31] So as a plant that could communicate human beings with gods or mother nature. What you can start to appreciate here is that cannabis is activating and hijacking the system throughout the body. Tune into Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. And you know, sometimes we go over. Nastasia might bump off if we go over because she hates it.
+
+[1:15] She'll give you the book of goodbye. Speaking of which, we have uh from her undisclosed location is somewhere in Southern California, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Yeah, yeah, we have uh John uh is back in his customer service Heidi Hole in the uh upper east side of Manhattan.
+
+[1:33] How you doing, John? Yeah. We have Matt in his Rhode Island booth. We're doing the COVID, we're all over the map. How you doing?
+
+[1:41] Mm-hmm. Checking off an extra state for you. Yeah, yeah. Rhode Islander Providence Plantation. And here, we don't know what state we're, but we have special guest, Melissa Weller here today, talking about her new book, A Good Bake: The Art and Science of Making Perfect Pastries, Cakes, Cookies, Pies, and Breads at Home.
+
+[1:58] Welcome. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. Where are you right now? I'm still in the same place as always.
+
+[2:04] I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Williamsburg. Ah, nice. All right. Like which part of Williams?
+
+[2:08] I mean, you don't have to say exactly. I'm not saying you have to like call out with the city. I don't mind. Anyone can anyone can know. It doesn't matter.
+
+[2:15] I am in, I'm on Bedford Avenue, close to North Eighth. Geez, what's up, Fancy Fance? What's the fanciest person? You're the fanciest person in the whole world. Jeez.
+
+[2:25] I try. Do you know? I used to work in that neighborhood in the in the like early to mid-90s. Oh wow. Yeah.
+
+[2:34] And uh a little bit different. Yeah, a little bit different. I've been in the same apartment for 16 years. 16 years. So what does that take you back to?
+
+[2:45] 2004. Okay, so 2004. All right, okay. So uh was Plant Eat Thailand still existing back then? It was.
+
+[2:53] It had some kind of like swing, like swing chairs. Yeah, so for those that you don't know, like Williamsburg was kind of an industrial, it was like half industrial, half residential. There were still some old like kind of Polish places. There was um a thrift store right off the subway where you know I used to go buy pants when I shredded my pants at the Brooklyn Brewery was over there, still is. Uh I I used to work for a uh famous sculptor named uh uh John Kessler, whose studio was over there.
+
+[3:25] And uh yes, we used to go there, but like the restaurant that everyone was like Pliny Thailand. That was like the height of eating in Williamsburg. So, oh, plenty Thailand. Oh, oh not planet, it's like plan eat. Anyway, and it and like, and then like they were like a little hole in the wall, and then they went through a renovation and they got big and they had some sort of sculptural boat in the middle of their thing.
+
+[3:45] And it was like the place. And then it just went away, right? I yeah, it's gone. I don't I don't even know what's there now. I haven't actually been down that street for a little bit.
+
+[3:55] Yeah, and my memory gets blurred because it was so long ago, but um I can't remember. Was Cash's Williamsburg or is that Greenpoint? No, that was Williamsburg. Yeah, I think that was Williamsburg. Is that also gone?
+
+[4:08] It I don't think it no, it's not there anymore. Yeah, yeah. And the thrift store's gone. The thrift store is a Chase Bank now. Oh, jeez.
+
+[4:17] Yeah. This is like this reminds me, uh, like, did you guys see that like a couple of days ago Bob Dylan sold his uh entire song catalog for $300 million? Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah, I can't wait till like Chase Bank has Bob Dylan songs for their thing or whatever kind of cash grab, like lunacy.
+
+[4:35] And the thing is the guy's still alive, he's gonna have to turn off his TV and like turn off the internet so that he doesn't see. I mean, it's only a matter of time before there's like a uh a G.I. Joe tambourine man, you know what I mean? Like you know, no, I don't know. Every time he sees that, it's just gonna be like that is the sound of money.
+
+[4:57] Yeah, so like the idea that that thrift store, which was not a bad thrift store, by the way, it was pretty I donated many things to it, yeah. And it was right there, and it was an old school one, so like it wasn't like it wasn't one of these thrift stores where you walk in and you're like, Oh, that sweat is nice, $50. What? No, it was like a a thrift store, and like you could get like if you needed a pie plate, because how many of you okay? Let's let's get into this for a second before we get into the book.
+
+[5:23] Melissa, how many times does happen? It doesn't happen to you because you specify glass pie plates, right? So yeah, well, we'll talk about this. I'm sure because like whenever I take a pie to someone's house, basically they get to keep the pie plate. So I can't go through glass like that.
+
+[5:37] That's true. That's true. Although I do use aluminum like in a bakery, so I don't have to worry about that too. Do you use black aluminum or do you use the regular silvered aluminum? The silver aluminum that you can buy at a bodega.
+
+[5:50] Oh yeah. No, it's fine. If you know how to bake with it, it's fine. But you know, for home, if you want to be perfect, um, get a glass plate. Like dimples and everything, like a Greek salad tin, or do they make one specially for pies?
+
+[6:03] They make one specially for pies. All right. Okay. So, like, how do you so for those of you that like uh don't think about cheat trays or whatnot, you you have to adjust how you bake to the stuff that you're using. So if you use something shiny, it affects very much like how brown the product is gonna get because it you're reflecting away all the radiant heat from the oven.
+
+[6:30] So how do you compensate if you're gonna use glass, which although it takes a while to heat up, is a is fairly good at absorbing radiant heat. So, you know, that's gonna give you a a particular kind of brownness on the bottom of the crust. How do you adjust when you're switching to shiny disposable aluminums for your dirtbag buddies? Yeah, I I actually I think I use those aluminum tins primarily at work. So I have a convection oven, so the bake time's different in the convection oven than it is at home.
+
+[6:57] So actually, I'd have to think, I think I probably bake them about the same length of time, same amount of time in the convection oven with the aluminum, but then that that gets a little bit more complicated because when I'm baking pies for for work, I actually uh freeze the I make a a a large batch of pies and then I freeze them all, and so I'm baking them from frozen in an aluminum tin versus just one pie in a glass pie plate at home. So you're saying it's like not instantly mentally translatable, like what they're so many differences. Yeah, I can't do that right now. Yeah, all right. Well, let's for those of you that for those out there that are not familiar with uh Melissa's work.
+
+[7:36] By the way, we we have like so much like almost overlap in our lives, it's crazy. I know, yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. I was thinking about the French Culinary Institute. I think we were almost there at the same time.
+
+[7:47] Well, you I came on probably right after you graduated. Well, let's go through some people. First, so first so first of all, you you started as a chemical engineer in Pennsylvania. You're from Pennsylvania, right? Correct, yes, I did.
+
+[7:59] And I started work as an engineer in Pennsylvania. What kind of Pennsylvania are you from? Are you like a eastern or western Pennsylvania person? I'm central, central Clearfield County, Clearfield, Central, West of State College. Okay.
+
+[8:13] All right, all right. But then you you went to work like literally as a chemical engineer in Allentown where they were shutting all the factories down, it's getting very hard to stay. AA exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, what were you what were you chemically engineering?
+
+[8:24] What was your what was your specific? Hydrogen and carbon monoxide plants for um petroleum refining. Whoa. Uh I didn't know that was a big business in Allentown. I always think of that as like Elizabeth or like you know, closer to the coast.
+
+[8:37] They they they did a lot of refining stuff over there. It wasn't ref there, wasn't refining happening at it was at air products, so there wasn't refining happening there, but all of the design was happening there, and then all of the plants were located around the world. So I traveled to Houston a lot that year, the year I graduated from college. I was going to Houston all the time, and once I went to Korea, and another time I went to um Puerto Rico, it's just all over the place. You know who else has a an Allentown connection or almost Easton connection is Nastasia.
+
+[9:06] Oh my mom was born there. Well, my mom lived there, yeah. Oh wow. Wow. That's that's why Nastasi will never buy an off-brand crayon.
+
+[9:15] Only Crayola. All right. So then you move from there to San Diego, and that's when you decide like crap on this, crap on this chemical engineering stuff. Like you didn't use you weren't weren't down with it anymore. Like, what was the career change like?
+
+[9:29] Because I think we get a lot of career changing. It took a while, actually. I actually moved to Berkeley to San Francisco, and I got a job in uh I got a I got a couple of jobs in the front of the house at different restaurants in San Francisco, and I tried to make that work, and that lasted for a few months, and then I got cold feet, and I started to look for an engineering job, and that took me to San Diego. Um, and I worked as an engineer in San Diego for a couple of years, and I just didn't like it, obviously. Um, and I wanted to do something more, I wanted to do cooking and I wanted to be creative, and so it was in San Diego that I started volunteering to work at this nice fine dining restaurant.
+
+[10:13] Um, it's a very small restaurant, and they needed somebody to do um pastry, so that's what I did. Now, were you this is so funny? Uh I don't think I've mentioned this on on on the air before, but um, I was when I graduated from from college, I was a paralegal. I was the world's worst, world's worst paralegal. And I was like, to hell with this.
+
+[10:36] Because at home, like I was baking bread all the time is what I was doing for fun. Oh wow. Yeah, this is in like 90 whatever, ninety three and uh ninety-four. And um, you know, there wasn't a lot of information, there wasn't the internet, I wasn't very good at it. That's not the point.
+
+[10:51] But like there was a bakery in New Haven, because you know, we stayed in in town after we graduated because my wife had like a really good job at she was my wife at the time, she was my girlfriend, but she was working for Caesar Pelleys, who's a great architect anyway. So, like I had to stay in town. I was a crappy crab. I was so bad at being a paralegal. I'm just not good at it.
+
+[11:09] Um I think I was awful at being an engineer. I hated my job. I had to spec out safety valves for these large plants, and I I hated it. I just wanted to be able to do it. Well, you gotta be careful about it.
+
+[11:19] I mean, you gotta be careful, you know. Yeah, you have to be very careful. I was the I was my first job was as a safety engineer. Yeah, well, that's an important job. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[11:28] You had to figure out how much how far the if the safety relief valve released, how far and in what direction would the carbon monoxide plume vent into the atmosphere? And I had to go through all of these parameters to make sure that the valve was placed in the right angle. That doesn't sound yeah. So it makes me feel comfortable that the entry-level position for anywhere is a safety engineer. Hey, hey, look.
+
+[11:52] Throw the new guy at this, yeah. Just because she was entry level doesn't mean she wasn't skilled at it. I I didn't like it, but I I did my I was good at my job. I probably I'm pretty self critical, but I I I remember we had to be reviewed, and I thought I did a horrible job, and my my boss is like, Why are you being so hard on yourself? You did fine.
+
+[12:13] Um I I think that's that's the sort of the story of my life. Have uh uh okay, well so so real quick, I I threatened to leave my job and become a baker and I had it all lined up. I was going to go work, but the thing is I couldn't get up at five in the morning. You know what I mean? Like and I ended up doing database design instead, and that's how I paid to become the person that I had for those people.
+
+[12:35] But yeah, I came like within like a hair's breadth close of like saying crap on it and going to work for who is the best, you know, the best bakery in um New Haven at the time. Oh yeah. That's so similar to me, actually. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[12:50] So like, but did you have to do it at like 4 a.m. or were you able to work like normal pastry people at like hours? What were you doing? I didn't. Well, I think I'm it's easier for me to wake up early.
+
+[13:00] I'm not very good at staying up late. And so some of the jobs, I think my well, the first job that I had in the restaurant industry in San Francisco was at Rubicon, and it was a hostess job, and and it wasn't early or late. It just required people skills and being friendly to people. And I and it's not that I'm not friendly to people, I'm a little bit introverted, but I it wasn't a great, it wasn't a great fit at all. And it it was like I hardly made any money, and I'm I was just like, what am I doing?
+
+[13:32] And I got cold feet and I quickly moved back into engineering. Yeah, host is so tough. It's so tough. You just don't make any that's why, like, you know, when it's the owner, like the owner, like the owner FOH does it, like that's one thing. Yeah, but like you just don't make a lot of money.
+
+[13:47] You have to like you have to like look really presentable. You're the first thing people see when when they show up. You have to be nice to people, you get all the abuse from the person that can't get the table, and you just don't make that much money. And you're the first person cut in the FOH. It's crazy.
+
+[14:00] I don't understand it. I have a lot of respect for people doing the host job, you know? Yeah, it was, and I think, you know, I think when I started, I was like, well, I just want to take a job and work my way up and I want to learn about how restaurants work, but I I would have taken a server job. I just had no skill set at that time. And the host is the job that's like the entry-level front-of-the-house job, or was at the time.
+
+[14:14] That was the only thing I could get. And it just, it was like, I didn't, it was it was pretty miserable. That's mostly what I remember. I remember carrying platters of drinks to people's table. Um, if they were at the bar and I had to move their drinks to the dining room.
+
+[14:35] And I mean for me, that was super stressful. I'm like, I'm gonna spill the drinks. Um now I think it's sort of I can't believe, you know, well, now is now, but back then that was like in the 90s, that was in the late 90s. That was pretty stressful, and I just didn't like it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[14:51] I don't blame you. So then you you decide you're gonna uh you're gonna go to uh culinary school, and you ended up in New York at uh my old uh institution, the French Culinary. And you did the pastry program, right? Yeah, I did. I was there in 2004.
+
+[15:08] Yeah, I did the pastry program. I loved it. Yeah, it's such a sh look that like in 2004. So I I got I came on at the end of 2004. Um that school that school is really firing on all cylinders, man.
+
+[15:21] The the the chefs there were so good. Like uh who did you have for pastry? Do you remember? I had Tony Lynn Dickinson. I she was amazing.
+
+[15:30] And Pierre Rodriguez, too. Yes, so awesome. Love care. They were a team, actually. He had just started, and so they worked together, and I just I loved it uh so much.
+
+[15:39] I learned so much from both of them. Chef Kier, ex-monk. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:46] Uh no, though they're they're they're great. Uh it's such a shame what what happened. They're closing down there. The end of that, the official end of the of the program is in December. I'm probably gonna go one more time because the museum, um, the museum, like they donated their library to the museum.
+
+[16:00] And guess what else the Museum of Food and Drink has? We have all the old DVDs of all of the old demos. Oh wow. Oh wow. I used to love those demos.
+
+[16:10] I remember Jacques Peypin. He did so many amazing demos there. I was really drawn to that. Oh yeah. Yeah.
+
+[16:16] I mean, I mean the guy is what is he, like a million? What is he? He's like a head in a Futurama jar at this point. I think you can still bone a chicken in like 17 seconds or something like this. Um anyway, yeah, the FCI FCI was uh all right, so so you go from there, and then you went, did you go directly to Babbo from there?
+
+[16:32] No, I had a little job in between. I was working at Chelsea Market at this petisserie called Goopal and DeCarlo, and I was making croissants there. Um and that wasn't a good fit for me. And I it lasted for a few months and then and then I started looking for like the right job. And I really wanted to work in a bakery, but at that time in 2004 and early 2005, there weren't a lot of good bakeries to choose from in New York.
+
+[16:58] And so I I was reluctant to take a restaurant job, but I really wanted to work with Gina De Palma and Bobo was such a happening restaurant at that time that when I saw the job opening there, I'm like, oh I I I really want to do this job, even if it's not at a bakery, I'll learn a lot. Um and and it just it opened up so many doors for me. I just I worked so hard in that job and and as a result I the doors just opened and and Gina, my mentor, just you know, helped me get whatever job I wanted afterwards. Now she used to come back and do demos and events at the FCI a lot. Did you meet her there?
+
+[17:37] Like when she was doing a demo or something? Or did you use it separate? I didn't. I only I met her when I trailed for the job at Babo. I hadn't met her before, but I was familiar with her work.
+
+[17:47] And I went to eat. I I went to Baba before my trail so I could try the desserts. Um and I I used to do that at a lot of different places back then. It's just go sit at the bar and order dessert so I could see what different chefs were doing. And I I really loved she was doing, she was very classical, but she was also employing a lot of savory ingredients, and that was new at that time.
+
+[18:09] There weren't that many chefs who were doing that, and I was really drawn to that. And so I trailed with her and it we just hit it off and and I just started working there right away, pretty much. Yeah, for those of you that aren't familiar, uh Gina De Palma was a like among pastry chefs, just like a revered figure. Like everyone always kind of got the opinion that somehow she always, even though she was well known, she always managed to get like a little bit snubbed by like uh oh yeah, by I don't know, awards and whatever else. I mean, it's not that she wasn't recognized, but everyone who knew her work always kind of felt that she was getting a little bit snubbed.
+
+[18:52] Do you agree? Yeah, absolutely. That was absolutely the case. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[18:56] Yeah. It wasn't until her cookbook came out that she was she finally got the recognition that she deserved. Yeah. And she was around in the era of the famous pastry chef. So, like again, for people who don't, you know, remember, like from about 2000 and one or two to about two thousand and eight was like the was the decade of the pastry chef, really.
+
+[19:23] Like they were like every, you know, uh in terms of public awareness. Yeah, you're right about that. No, that's so true she was Claudia Fleming's sous chef at Gramercy Tavern who you also call out her book as being an influence for you yeah it's no exactly and I think that that I think knowing that Gina had worked for Claudia was a big factor in in wanting to also work to in wanting to work for Gina yeah and and I only knew her tangentially like I met her a couple of Gina uh but uh you know she you know tragically got sick uh with cancer died you know very very young and like continued to work while she was sick right it was crazy wasn't it yeah she was yeah no it's she she was diagnosed with cancer in 2008 and then she passed away in 2015 and and for most of that entire time she was working yeah yeah it's nuts it's nuts anyway so go look up her work check check out her work pastries universally she's universally revered in the field uh at the time while while she was working universally wouldn't you say that's true or no I absolutely yeah absolutely so then from Babo you go to work with uh everybody's favorite bread lunatic uh Jim Leahy yes very very apropos yeah I mean what a nutbag right yeah he's crazy but I think that's part of what makes his bread good or what he's does his bread good yeah yeah Nastasia almost worked with with him almost took a full time job with him she was deciding between working with us at the French Culinary or with him over at Sullivan up at the in the 50. Were you up in the 50, 50 yeah 47th Street, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[21:09] And she unwisely chose to come to the FCI, right, Stas? I was working with him. I was his come at the opening of Co. on 2020. Oh, wow.
+
+[21:20] Oh, wow. Okay. You overlapped for like a couple of months? Yeah. Remember, we go back and forth.
+
+[21:26] What a nut, what a nut. Anyway, he whenever he comes on the show, he like invariably curses a blue streak. And we shared an ed we shared an editor. Uh if you ever want to see like get like what you want to do is Maria Guarnicelli, who is that was Gina's editor too, by the way. Oh, really?
+
+[21:45] Um if I ever get to speak to Maria again, I'll have to ask about that. But like if Nastasia, Maria loves Nastasia, like loves her. I think she's she signed me so that she could have lunch with Nastasia on a regular basis. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah.
+
+[22:02] Oh wow. And uh in like Maria, so Maria Guarnicelli was one of the great editors, cookbook editors of all time. All right. Just see if you don't know who she is, that's who she is. Um, and her daughter is Alex Guarnicelli, well-known chef.
+
+[22:18] Um so, yeah, but she always scared the daylights out of me, Maria did. Like scared the hell out of me. And one of like Nastasia's favorite things to do is we'd get Maria in a room talking about Jim Leahy, and then like the next day we would get Jim Leahy in a room talking about Maria. That is a fun game. Oh my god.
+
+[22:40] I would can I be present the next time I want to be part of that. I mean, I don't I don't know if those those times will ever be recruited. No, that's true. No, it's true. Yeah, probably not.
+
+[22:51] I um I met Maria at a food conference, a food writing conference in back in like 2001 in Napa. I think that's a that that sort of is as long as I've wanted to write a cookbook. I went to a food writing conference back then and I met her there. I introduced myself. I was very I knew who she was.
+
+[23:08] I used to read the acknowledgments in all of the cookbooks that I was reading. So I knew who she was, and I just introduced myself and that was pretty much it. But then I actually met her basically the second day I started working for Gina. So I knew she was I knew her from Gina, and she never ever remembered me. I kept running into her and I'd be like, she was sort of like a superstar to me, um, because I really wanted to write a cookbook, and I'd be like, There's Maria.
+
+[23:34] And so I I I knew her through Gina, but she she never remembered me. And then I knew that she was doing Jim's book. And then and I was working for Jim when he was working on his book with Maria, which is sort of ironic. And then I think I ran into her at when I was working at Roberta, she was having a lunch. And finally I I told her again who I was, and I'm like, do you remember me?
+
+[23:55] And she I think I don't think she remembered me, but she was so flattered that she sent me a cookbook. Um Yeah, it was really nice. Yeah. Well she ate it Roberta's when Nastasia and I were talking with her because I think that was when Roberta's was was trying to pitch their book out to different publishing persons. Oh wow.
+
+[24:14] Okay, so then I was there making the bread at that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so speaking of Leahy, while we're on the subject, one of the recipes in the book is inspired kind of by the no need stuff. So might as well knock that out while we're talking about it. Yes.
+
+[24:28] Yes. So uh you do a so instead of uh water, you use carrot juice in it, right? It's carrots, currants, pecan bread, and it's but it's all it's a classic, it's in a Dutch oven, very high hydration. Yes. Um, but so I wanted to like mention as you talk about it for a second one of the the interesting things to me about it are one it's even higher hydration than Leahy's like standard mix and you also call for bread flour instead of AP and I'm wondering A is that why you have the higher hydration and then you also use like rye flour on the outside as your as your dust how messy is that sucker to flip you want to talk about that recipe for a second oh and let's it's got different size air holes in the standard uh leahy so it's not as and I wondered whether it was the ingredients that did that it's not as one tiny bubble one giant bubble as a lot of his stuff it's more like a normal bread crumb so go okay oh yeah so let's talk about this bread so I it's it's with carrot juice and it's it's not sweet it's a savory bread and it was it I helped Jim with all of his when he was when I was working for Jim I would help him with his bread classes and he was teaching no need bread classes and he was tea he was all of the bread dough that we made at the bakery was no need bread dough um that we would bulk ferment for nine hours at a time and um and I was helping him with his classes and he was working on the recipes for his cookbook and this was this was this is a version of a recipe that he had done and I loved it.
+
+[25:55] All of Jim's flours at that time were coming from a silo and so it was like one type of flour and I think I just think over the years I've just adapted to flours that work I think that work best for like I think bread flour it takes a little bit longer for the gluten to break down with bread flour I thought that that worked better for this I generally try to use, well, no, that's not true. I'm very specific about my flowers, but I did think that the bread flour worked best for this dough. It wasn't sort of as like wet, if you will, as like a like if you used all-purpose flour. I use all-purpose flour. I use King Arthur all-purpose flour.
+
+[26:31] That's a pretty King Arthur All-Purpose Flour has a pretty high percentage protein content. I think it's more like 12.9%, which is, is it 12 or no, 11.9? So it's almost 12%. That's almost like bread flour. Um, and I I think Jim always used bran, wheat bran for everything.
+
+[26:49] And I like wheat bran. I think regardless of what you do with no-need bread, if it involves flipping and flour or bran, you're gonna have a mess in a little bit of a mess in your kitchen. And so um, I try to keep things simple and not have too many ingredients going on. I I feel the same about sourdough starters. I don't try to have six different starters, I try to keep it to just like one, maybe two.
+
+[27:13] Um professionally, yeah. It I I've had to deal with having all of these different sourdough starters professionally. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of labor. It causes a lot of, it's difficult for the bakery to maintain all of those. And so I generally try to like like wheedle them down to one liquid starter based on wheat flour and maybe a rye starter and then um a poolish generally.
+
+[27:38] Um, and so for this dough, it I it's you know, I have to say I love the photo in my book of the carrot breads beautiful, but man, that bread over fermented for me that day because I was trying to get all of the all of the products ready for photo shoot and also work. I was at High Street, so I was also in charge of the the production at High Street, and I remember that day, I was like, oh my god, it overfermented. Is it gonna be okay? And the crumb's really beautiful, but I was a little nervous. It wasn't as like I uh his bread definitely has some big holes and some little holes.
+
+[28:16] And if you do the if you do the regular white um white bread, if you will, um uh no need bread, you do get that variation. But I also think that I also think that there is uh and I'm just guessing here that there's residual sugar in the carrot juice that's causing it to ferment a little faster, and it it would be more responsible for and also the I'm going all over the place, sort of jumping all over the place, but I also think that the higher hydration also um is that true? See, I have to think through, I want to think through it. The higher the hydration, if you have a strong, if you have the right flour and a strong flour, it should be able to handle that. But I actually think that I probably fermented it a little long that day.
+
+[29:00] Or actually, not fermented, but proofed it too long, right? So you think that normally it would have like a little more of that big whole little hole thing? Yeah, I think normally it would, yeah. I mean, like, by the way, I like all kinds of bread crumbs. Like I know people go like crazy, they want one specific thing.
+
+[29:17] Yeah, as long as someone can control it and make it taste good. I mean, I'm for it. You know, I think that's yeah, no, I think that's the most important thing. It has to taste good, it has to look, I think it needs to have this like pretty like a beautiful rusticity to it. It's good, but I it the most important thing is how it tastes.
+
+[29:35] Um, speaking of which, well, we'll get to it later. So then after after Leahy, you go to work for a different kind of crazy, you go to per se. Yeah, that's definitely a different kind of crazy. I mean, one of one of the favorite people that uh Nastasia and I worked with at FCI went to go work for per se, and we're like, dude, you nuts. And that's crazy, right?
+
+[29:57] Yeah, it's crazy. It was so hard. I can't even begin to describe how how challenging it was. I learned so much. I'm so grateful for that experience, but it was really hard.
+
+[30:08] Yeah, and plus uh what was it like working in that sp in that space in the in the in the in the Time Warner building. I mean, that's just a the whole thing. It's like imagine being in that kind of a kitchen, but also like in that like the location. It seems like all kind of crazy, right? Or not?
+
+[30:22] It was it was hard. It felt like I felt like the products felt like where we were. I don't know if that makes sense, but it felt very the Time Warner Center is a bit like a shopping mall, and I felt like everything is on display, everything's perfect, everything looks perfect, and I felt like that's how my breads were too. They were on display, I was on display while I worked, and everything had to look perfect, and and generally it tasted good too. Right, right, right.
+
+[30:51] Yeah, no, but like in but it was so weird because you're in that area of like hyper control inside of per se, but then outside at the bakery, you're selling to people eating at cafe tables in a mall. Yeah, you know, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's just interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was hard. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[31:09] So then in and so you you were like, and uh you were the you were the head baker there, right? Yeah, I was, yeah. And then you went from there to Roberta's. Oh my god, what are you like? Yeah, I'm probably pretty crazy.
+
+[31:22] You know, I'll you know what? I'm I feel like I'm pretty ambitious with my career, and I really I like this opportunity at per se to be the head baker came up, and I have to say, I had hardly any experience baking bread and managing a team at the time that I was hired. Like I had only been working, I was hired in 2008. I started working at Bobo in 2005. That's only three years, and I only worked at Sullivan for one year, and they needed somebody who understood bread and understood fine dining and had that skill set.
+
+[31:57] And I I had a good tasting, I presented myself well, um, neat and tidy. Um, and and I was hired, but I wasn't prepared to manage even a small team at per se. There was so much pressure on my shoulders, and it was I it was a big learning curve for me. It was hard, but I'm grateful, I'm really grateful for the for the opportunity. But then I was pregnant, I got pregnant while I was at Per se and I wasn't sure how I was gonna handle my pregnancy, but I did leave per se and I took time off because I don't think I don't think it would have been realistic at all to have had a baby and continued to work as a head baker at per se.
+
+[32:37] I just don't see how it could have worked. I was working like 14-hour days, not taking it was lucky if I had a day off a week, and I don't know how you can divide your time between having a you can't have it all. I don't think you could have that job, that particular job, and have a newborn. And so I wasn't sure what I was gonna do. I was pretty burned out.
+
+[32:59] Um, and I was like, well, I'm burned out, but I still really want to make the kind of bread that I want to make. And right around that time I got uh I got an email or uh a text message from a friend of mine saying that Robert's was looking for a head baker, and that was appealing to me because I live in Williamsburg and it's not that far away. So and they didn't care what I did. Uh honestly. That checks out.
+
+[33:25] That checks out, yeah. Yeah, they said, I we don't care what you do, we just need you to sell some bread. Just make some bread for the restaurant. We don't care. And I was like, okay, well, this is like, this is like my free car to do whatever I want.
+
+[33:39] And I can create my own schedule around my child. And that was really like one of the most important things for me at that time was to create a schedule so I could be home as much as I could to take care of my son. And so I stayed there for a night. But Roberta's was definitely a different kind of crazy. But I also, you know, I also got to start to make my own things.
+
+[34:09] I don't feel like anything that I made at per se was, it's not true. I mean, I did make I did make my own breads there, but really something that reflected me, I feel like that was what happened at Roberta's, was that the products that the the bake bakery items that I was making really reflected me. So you think like Roberta's at its best, like as a concept. And so like, you know, I don't know, like I'm always with with Nastasia at Roberta's, and especially because we've been going for how many years, over 10. How many years we've 10, 10, 10 something years?
+
+[34:45] Yeah. Oh wow, yeah. We're like, how is this possible? Right? It's like, how like how are they not getting like they they're not following any rules?
+
+[34:55] How are they not getting shut down, et cetera, et cetera? How are they able to just like do all this stuff that doesn't make any sense, like in terms of you know, if if it makes sense from an outsider perspective, but if you're you know even like tangentially involved in the business, you look at it, you're like, how are they doing this and not getting like smacked around by the authorities at be or whatnot, but you're but at its best, it really you think allowed you to kind of be who you were. Like their lack of rules allowed you to be who you wanted to be. That's it, it's nice. Yeah, at the time I was baking in a wood-fired oven that was outside in a shipping container, and that's pretty illegal as far as I can tell.
+
+[35:32] Like there was no, there was there was no one was monitoring that oven. It was just sort of out there, and we'd build a fire in it, and then I'd go out in the in the early morning and clean it out and bake some bread in it. And I remember I remember we'd be careful, you know, like it's in the yard. This sounds awful to say, but the DOH would come by, but they would come by to Roberta's and not to the yard. Huh.
+
+[35:56] Um, and I think that that was sort of part of it at the time. But you know, there the rent, the rent was so low there. It was just incredible. I still remember the I seen the numbers, and I still remember the numbers, just incredible how low it was that it made so many things possible because the rent was so low. Well, they they uh didn't they Nastasia didn't they like redesign the entire courtyard to take advantage of a fancy pigeon that had like decided it was gonna live in that yard?
+
+[36:26] Yeah, yes. I don't remember that. It was like, or it seemed like that, like I don't know. Yeah, no, I would believe it. I believe it.
+
+[36:33] I maybe I was was I still there at that time, I'm not sure. That fancy pigeon, it was a very fancy pigeon. I'll have to say the pigeon was extremely fancy. So then you hooked up with major food group and did Sadels, huh? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:47] Do you know? I still I still haven't been because I know that I will bankrupt myself on salmon if I go. Oh, that's a good thing. Nastasia's been several times. Oh wow, okay.
+
+[36:57] Wow. So I I wanted to leave her, I was ready to leave Roberta's. So, you know, I'm a career changer. So I just remember I had just turned 40, and I was, it was New Year's Day. It was like two in the morning on New Year's Day, and I was like dealing with a lot of people who were still at Roberta's partying.
+
+[37:15] I was just trying to get my bake done. And I'm like, I'm sort of done with this. I'm done with this. I said I'm a grown-up now. I'm done.
+
+[37:23] I need to leave. I need to get my own business started. And so my idea was at the time was I'm gonna do something at I'm gonna sell bagels at the Williamsburg Smorkusburg while I work on a business plan. And I I knew that the bagels were a good idea, but I didn't know how, like, I didn't know if they how how they would catch on. And I just thought it was, oh, this is a good idea.
+
+[37:43] People want something small that they can take away at the at the Smorgesburg. And you know, at that point, New York magazine, um, uh Robin Riesfeld and and Rob Patronite were fans of the city. Great, great people, by the way. Great people. Yeah, I love them so much.
+
+[37:57] And they were the first ones to really write about my stuff, and they picked up that I was at the Smorgusburg, and they went with it and they included it in their magazine. And I it was through that article in the magazine that I was connected to an investor for the major food group who connected me to the major food group partners, and I dropped some bagels and sticky buns off to them. They were sold, and we agreed. I thought I we agreed to partner. I thought partnering with them was a good idea at the time.
+
+[38:24] And so we partnered in 2013, and we spent two years designing and recipe testing Sadels, and we opened it up in the fall of 2015. Yeah. So I have to say this. So for those of you that don't know, like Major Food Group is like uh Carbone, Therese, all of this, and anything they take on, they take on kind of in a in a big way. And this was like their, you know, your and their take on kind of like what would it, you know, kind of like deli on crack, right?
+
+[38:58] I mean, like, yeah, yeah. And uh, but it like the other thing is strange is that it was kind of like all your stuff in the daytime and then a different restaurant at night, right? Yeah, it was. It was like, oh yeah, it was like a a uh like a New York deli with bagels and locks during the day, and at night it was this Russian restaurant that it never never really caught on. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:22] Well, because you know what people like, they like bagels and locks, it turns out. It's true. I don't know whether you know this, uh, but you know, so now we have to get down to bagels. We're gonna have to have a little bit of a bagel uh thing. I I read through this book twice.
+
+[39:35] Yeah, I think I looked in the index. Yep, no bagels. No bagels. Are you contractually obligated to not write a bagel recipe? Oh, I held back on the bagels, they're in book number two.
+
+[39:46] All right, all right. Because you do have boiled doughs, you do do pretzels. Yeah, no, uh, the bagels are so there's so much for me to say about bagels, and to me, bagels are really savory, and I wanted to include more savory recipes with the bagels that they didn't feel like they belonged in this book. This book's more sweet. It's got sweet cookies, pies, laminated pastries, and I just felt like bagels deserved their own book.
+
+[40:11] So they're not gonna be. You have like, you know, you have some savory stuff in this book, though. I do, I do. But not the way that I felt that bagels, otherwise, it'd be like a thousand page book. So you're gonna do like a bagel only book for book two?
+
+[40:28] Book two is gonna be bread, and bagels are bread, by the way. And so, and so there will be sour like really sourdough bread, um, baguettes, bagels, like things that are like really more bread baker focused to bake at home and sandwich, and I'll probably do some fun sandwiches too, but not not really sweet things. So now on bagels, you uh I gather are not a fan of the Essa style puffy bagel. No, or you don't want to make it yourself. I'm not saying you hate them, but that's not what you're interested in making.
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+[41:05] Let's put it that way. I yeah, I want to make good bagels that are true to New York. Well, but at this point, S has been around since what? And at this point, it is a New York style. That's true.
+
+[41:19] Um looking at yeah, no, that's true. You know, I mean, like, I get what you're saying, and like a lot of the old like who do you who do you like other than your own stuff? Who do you like in the city? I like absolute bagels. Oh, what's up?
+
+[41:34] Like, do you ever live up there? No, I've got people bringing them down to me. But the thing is, absolute, those guys started at Essa, they changed their stuff. They started. Okay.
+
+[41:45] Oh, that's interesting. Unless I'm getting confused. No, I believe that. I believe you. Yeah, that makes sense.
+
+[41:49] They're run by a Thai family, right? Yes, yes, they are. I've been getting their bagels and sort of looking at them, and I've been thinking about my own bagels, and I'm working at at GERTI right now, by the way, and we're working on a bagel recipe, and I'm excited about it because I wanted to change my bagel recipe a little bit and make it a little bit more. You know, what happened? What happened was I was making the bagels at Sadel's, and then I also made them at High Street on Hudson, and um what the owner of Bubbies came in, he read an article about me being at High Street, and he he had my bagels, and he started telling me about he grew up in the city, and he was telling me what bagels were like in like the 70s or 80s, and how they was just he used to just get this bag of like really hot, doughy like bagels, and he was just talking about how doughy they were, and I was really intrigued by what he said.
+
+[42:40] I'm like, you know, I really I'm always I I really love food food culture and food history, and I was like, I I'm really intrigued by this. But you know, my bagels aren't like that. I like my bagels, but I'm wondering if I changed them, how would I change them? Would I try to make them more like like those bagels you'd get in before they got really oversized, but like maybe they'd be like bagels from like the 80s size-wise, but have flavor to them. And so I've been thinking about that lately, trying to make them more like big York bagels.
+
+[43:11] Yeah, I mean, the 80s puffies bake puffy bagels as I remember them, a lot of them were like a little bit sallow and not just puffy, but like doughy in the under in the under baked in the gummy sense. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's how how are you baking the bagel? And I know bagels are trendy to bake right now with bread bakers, but like how do how are bagels are not supposed to be baked like a loaf of bread, actually, because people don't want an artisanal thick crust on them.
+
+[43:39] I feel the same about a baguette, actually, because those are those are such a thin piece of bread that if you try to achieve a really thick crust on them, like a bread baker would an artisanal loaf of sourdough, it's too thick. You're gonna tear your teeth out, and then that's not what people want out of a bagel. Um, they want something squishy and they want some doughess. It's just how much doughiness is the right amount of doughess. But do you do you like blistering on a on a bagel crust or no?
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+[44:07] I do, but it really depends on the type of oven that you're baking it out of. What are your thoughts on the uh go-goy go? Well, you know, if you're I get blisters if I bake it in a convection oven really pretty easily. I don't get blisters when I bake it in a bagel oven. It's the way it's the way the dough is moving through the chamber.
+
+[44:31] Um, and I know that those are both types of convection, but there is some there is a difference, and I don't get blisters in a in a bagel oven. So I think it depends on the oven that you're using. Like if you're What do they bake bagels on? Rotary decks? They bake them on like revolving, yeah, rotary decks, exactly.
+
+[44:48] So that the deck goes around like a ferris wheel, um, and it has this like heat source at the bottom of the oven down, you know, down near the bottom, like like any home oven would. Um, and then the bagels just rotate on this deck um until they're baked. And what's I thought was really interesting because I did so much testing of bagels. Um, I did so much testing of bagels on um in a convection oven, a blodget, because that's what I had. But then when I switched over to this revolving tray oven, the bagels got really pale, they got shiny, they were shiny and pale.
+
+[45:23] They weren't taking on color just because of the way they were moving around in the oven. And then I would bring the bagels around to different bagel shops, and this is with Sadell's some RD before we opened, and I would bake the bagels in their ovens, and I'd use their kettles of water, and every bakery was offering me to add sugar to the water to some type of sweetener to the water, whether it's like barley malt syrup or brown sugar, everyone had their own concoction. I'm like, oh well, this is this is to brown it up. Exactly. I was like, this is pretty fascinating.
+
+[45:55] It's there's no other reason except to cause some browning. Um, and I thought that that was pretty interesting. Huh. It is interesting. Yeah.
+
+[46:03] Uh and so like all the people who freak out that you need malt, it's just any reducing sugar in that water is gonna is gonna do the browning for you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on the Montreal style of bagel? This is a I like the size.
+
+[46:19] I like, you know what? I love when the sesame seeds hit the wood-fired oven and they're toasted on the bottoms and the tops. I really think that that's that's cool. I think the I like the flavor there. I wish that they had more salt in the dough.
+
+[46:33] Um, and I don't I don't necessarily like how they're I if I remember the ones that I've had are are a little sweet, um, maybe a little too sweet for me. I like the size. What's with the lack of salt? Have you ever had anyone accurately describe why they do that, or is it just their ornery? I think it's just the way I don't, I think it's the way the recipe developed there.
+
+[46:54] And I don't think I think a lot of like, look at like maybe maybe I have too much of a salted palate at this point. Because if I if I go to Europe at well, when I was going to France and eating in France, I was noticing I'm like, wow, like my palate's really salty. I need more salt in a lot of things that I used to not need. And if you look at old recipes for like pastries, there's no salt. Salt's sort of a new thing.
+
+[47:16] I feel like more salt being added to baked goods is a newer, a newer thing. And I I just think it's the history of how salt came to be in the Montreal bagels, or there was no salt in the bagels. Some whoever whomever started making them just didn't make them with salt. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes progress is progress.
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+[47:29] Salt is a good thing. Yeah, I think so too. Speaking of progress, you uh you say that you've switched out a cornstarch for the for the vast majority are using arrowroot. You really think it's worth the extra money? Um, I like it.
+
+[47:47] It's not that much money, I guess. It's not that much more money. Yeah, I don't think I use that much arrowroot. It lasts a long time. Ditto for the cornstarch.
+
+[47:56] Like I'm not using those all the time. So you're not a fan of the cornstarch swap in a in a flour recipe. I yeah, I think I try to I try, you know, I do use cornstarch, but I think for the most part, if I can swap it out or try to swap it out, I'll I'll swap it out. Yeah. You really like my book.
+
+[48:15] I like that. Yeah. This episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash.
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+[48:29] We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. A peel is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Because there's a thing less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away.
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+[48:47] It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system, from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal! Food gone good!
+
+[49:03] Learn more at appeal.com. Oh, uh, Chad had a question about ultra-low sodium diets. Any suggestions for baking for people on ultra-low sodium diets, bread in particular, but also other items. Salt is so vital for so many formulas, and I haven't found much way around it. Ah, I I remember at when I worked at per se, we had to accommodate every diet, and I remember I had a saltless bread.
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+[49:36] I don't think that there's I think that you can, you know, you're not gonna get the same thing. You can totally reduce the amount of salt or maybe take it all out, and you're not gonna get the same product, and the bake isn't gonna be the same, and the browning isn't going to be the same. But that's not to say that you can't make a good loaf of bread without salt. And I remember at Sullivan Street Bakery, we made the um the green olive loaves and the green olive rolls. There was no salt in that dough because he relied on the salt from the olives.
+
+[50:10] And I really loved how and and that's true for Italian breads where there's a lot of like salty like ingredients or or cheese or whatever you're gonna put on the bread itself, that they don't salt the bread. And there's something about that that I like. I think I think if I was going to do more like salt-free baking, I'd start to explore like Tuscan style of breads because they don't use salt in their baking. Yeah, unfortunately for them, right? Yeah, maybe so.
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+[50:38] I mean, I'm sorry, look, if you have a thing, you have a thing. I I don't mean to be a jerk about it. Uh but that's a tough one. Uh detest. I detest it.
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+[50:51] That's pretty cool. I've had it in Tuscany. I'm like, oh, I have it in America and I hate it. Let me go to Tuscany. I'm sure it's good there.
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+[50:57] Nope. Oh, wow. Do you eat it with salty things? Or you you're just eating it plain? I've tried it plain.
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+[51:05] I have tried it with uh a nice pecorino. I have tried it with olives, and every time I've tried it, I was like, you know what would be nicer if this bread had flavor. Oh no. You know what I mean? Like I had the absolute bagels, and I was like, whoa, there's hardly any salt in this dough.
+
+[51:20] I th I was very intrigued by that. I was like, well, there really isn't much salt in these bagel in this bagel dough. And I'm like, that's very interesting. And sometimes I wonder, because I get a lot of accolades for my my stuff, but I'm like, is it because I'm using more salt? Like am I balancing the salt out?
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+[51:35] And then, you know, I I wonder about that because I use more s I use more salt than than some bakers do. Yeah, 2.2. Like usually people top out at 2%, and you're at a 2.2. You're a full higher. 2.2 is exactly what Jim Leahy used.
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+[51:51] And then I think I when I got to per se, they were like, no, no, that's not enough. You need to add more. And they were kept making me add more salt to the point where I'm like, no, absolutely not. So what's your standard? Like what's your what's your mental go-to per salt percentage?
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+[52:05] Somewhere between 2.5 and 3, but not above three. But then if you have a lot of add-ins in your your form, and that's baker's percentage. So say you have a lot of nuts and seeds, then you take the total, the total weight of the dough, and you take the percentage at 1.1%. And I can cross compare that with like 2.5%, and I take the higher amount. So on salt, like anything over three is gonna start messing with the yeast though, right?
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+[52:37] Yeah, it does. I remember because I got to experiment a lot with salt and dough at per se because everybody they the my boss has just wanted so much salt and and then the the the actual dough would start to be affected by the amount of salt. And I remember that the baker before me at per se, he's like, well, just say you're gonna add more salt, but make it the same, and then tell them that you added more salt and see if they taste it and like it. And if they say, Oh, this is good, then don't change the salt. So I think I did try that a couple of times.
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+[53:06] It worked. Huh. Well, yes, I'm I'm usually like a almost like a flat two. Maybe I'll try going, I'll try going higher. Like my ment my mental, my mental brain, my my like recipe brain works at a flat two.
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+[53:20] But I watched, you know, I would never I almost never use two at this point. I think I always assumed based on what I learned at Sullivan that it should be 2.2. And then because I was at per se, I was like went up to 2.5. I think I feel like tartine, I think Chad's formulas are at least 2.5. They're they're above two, I think.
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+[53:43] I have to go back to the five. Do you have a lot of things? I'm only looking at his his cookbook recipes. I have had a loaf of his bread once, but I can't remember. I wasn't like, it wasn't like, oh, where where's the salt?
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+[53:54] It just it felt really balanced to me. Um yeah. I use salted butter though, which I know you'd hate. Oh no, I'm not sure. That's the one thing I refer.
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+[54:04] I refuse to b bow to professional uh. Oh, you mean when you're baking, you put it in your oh wow. Oh wow. I only stock one kind of butter in the house. Booker will not eat unsalted butter, and so I just do everything with salted butter.
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+[54:18] Oh wow. Well, that makes sense. I have I get the fancy French like butter from Brittany, and I I the salted butter, and I I usually smear that on my toast. Oh nice. Well, speaking of uh that you have uh the all these recipes, which you know, I've never tasted one of these.
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+[54:36] The Queen Queen Amand, which is spelled K-O-U I-G-N-A-M-A-N-N. Yes. So why they're first of all, in the re in the book, those things are just so freaking pretty. They're so pretty. You know what I mean?
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+[54:51] You want to describe this? For it's a newer, it's a newish thing in the US. Yeah, it's a big one. But I'm sure John has had it because he's a Frenchie French cooker. It's a new trend in the US, and it comes from in it's comes from Brittany in France, and it's it's Breton.
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+[55:05] Um, and so it translates to butter cake, broken, is it butter cake, because Brittany, part of France is known for their butter production. And so the Quinamon and Brittany are not like the trendy things in my cookbook. Um, they're like way more classic, big, large round ones, and just really full of butter and caramel and sugar. Um, I guess caramel caramel, not caramel in the tradition, like caramelized from the baking, actually. Um, and I I liked I liked the Quinamon that I had been trying around first in the city here, and then I was in France, and I was trying them in France, and I'm like, oh, these are really good.
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+[55:49] And I think I just started playing around with the recipe. Yeah, but and the ones you have, it's like folded almost like a dumpling fold in. It's like lay layered and then folded in, so it has this kind of awesome look. Yeah. When you when you when you guys get her book, check it out.
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+[56:06] It it's real pretty. It made me want to have one. But the one thing that I'm sure Nastasia would love to have, because she is a huge fan of this, you do a Concord grape pie. But what a pain in the butt that looks like. It's true.
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+[56:14] It's a pain. I'm sorry. Nastasia, she freezes. She freezes Nastasia and then cuts each individual Concord grape in half and takes every freaking seed out. Yeah, I do do that.
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+[56:34] But now you you can buy seedless Concords. I think they're called Concords. They're not real. They don't taste the same. No, they're not quite the same.
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+[56:43] You're right. They don't have, they're not quite the same. But if you were so opposed to doing this with your grapes, but you just had to make a grape slab pie, you could get Mars grapes or Tomcord grapes. And I mean, Tom Tom Cords, Nastasia would punch me in the face if I handed her a Tomcord because she is like Nastasia Lopez is an aficionado of Concorde grapes. Ah, yeah.
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+[57:08] And if you live in a place where Concords grow or near it, there is very little that is more intoxicating than walking into a farmer's market when the Concords hit. Yeah. And just having that boom, if you don't mind the bees. Because bees just like swarm in. Like in fact, um I remember we'd have a Concorde drink at the bar, and uh and we would open the packages from the farmer's market and bees would fly out into the bars.
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+[57:39] Oh wow. Oh wow. Yeah, because yeah, at the market, you always have to be careful. And yeah. Yeah.
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+[57:49] So the freezing is just to keep them in shape while you're cutting them. Yeah. Have you ever tried to take the seeds out of a Concorde grape? Because the skin separates super easily from the middle, but then you can't get the seeds out of the middle. They're like stuck there.
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+[57:59] And the only way to get them out really, unless you want to eat the seeds. So I was at when I was at Baba, this was our pro this was our process. Every evening, um, while we were waiting for the dessert orders to come in, we had to, we had to grab a quart container of grapes and and and take the seeds out of them. We were making a schiacciata dessert at Babo. And then when I got to Sullivan Street Bakery, Jim was like, no, no, we're not doing that.
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+[58:29] He just ate the grape seeds and all. Well, he's a lunatic. Yeah, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I I find Concord Grape seeds to be an unpleasant texture.
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+[58:40] I agree. I can't I can't do it. I just don't want it. Yeah. But you know, uh if Nastasi and I ever work in a kitchen environment together to get where we have other people who will do that work for us when we'll try that recipe.
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+[58:54] That's a good idea, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so also um, so other things that are uh interesting. Hala, you do a lot of stuff on hala.
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+[59:02] You have uh like a lot of good braiding pictures. You have some severe braiding skills there. Yes, I do. Have you seen my hair? Uh no, not recently.
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+[59:11] Yeah, I usually wear a bun and it's usually braided and well, that's sort of a joke. But I guess the braiding and the hala, yeah. I think I think that, you know, I have all of these different experiences um working in different different types of bakeries and restaurants here in New York. And I enjoyed making hala a lot. I like love my recipe.
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+[59:33] Um, it's a sourdough hala, and I and I also spent a lot of time teaching teaching bakers how to braid the hala. And you know, that's to me that's the fun part of it. Yeah, I think I feel like a lot of people are going down a hala hole during this COVID time. So they should get your book and check out the braiding on it. Yeah.
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+[59:53] A couple more things before before we before that we get kicked off. First of all, your hot dog buns, you don't use potatoes, starch, or flour, like you know, so like normally when I'm incorporating potato, use actual cooked potato in your hot dog buns. And get this. People, she cooks them, then uh lets them cool down, and then beats them with the skins on. She's using Yukons, but she beats them with the skins on.
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+[1:00:15] What's that all about? What what what is there what well potatoes are starch, right? They just absorb into the dough. Um, and I think you know, I I had learned that a long time ago, I made a sourdough, uh sourdough potato loaf at per se. And that's that was the that was the process is you just to save time.
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+[1:00:34] The mixer is so powerful. You don't try to don't try to mash the potatoes, you're just wasting time. Just throw, and I love the skins are so flavorful. Just throw the whole potatoes in, and there you go. And I I really loved that idea of using whole potatoes in the dough like that.
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+[1:00:49] And I think even my gluten-free bread, my my think my trick is to put roasted potatoes in the dough because it just adds more flavor. It's also starch, it's like vitamin food for your, you know, for your dough. And right, right. Yeah. Well, and it's pre it's pre-cooked, so especially in the gluten-free, it's gonna give you the structure that you're not gonna have because you've already functionalized the starch.
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+[1:01:09] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but uh, so but this wouldn't work with burbanks though, because the skin's too thick, right? Uh I well, yeah. You you want something with a thin skin. And do you find that on your hot dog buns that you have to be more careful with the temperature with convection with the potato?
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+[1:01:25] Do they get browner faster? Um, with the buns. Hmm, that's a good question. I haven't some of the yeah, I would say yes, absolutely. But I think I play around with the convection oven quite a bit with the baking, because I'm always I'm always a fan of trying to keep the the inside of it as moist as possible.
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+[1:01:44] And when you're doing your baking in a convection oven, you've got the air circulating, things can get dried out. So I think I used to be I used to bake in the convection oven at 350 for like 15 to 20 minutes. And then recently I've increased the temperature to 375, and then I reduce the baking time because it doesn't take as long, and then it's darker on the outside and just more moist, a little moister on the inside. Oh, there's a there's a pan you have a a whole section on speaking of pains in the butt, but a very detailed section on panetone and in uh in in the book, including like how to put the skewers, how to turn it upside down. Yeah you have a hilarious, you have a hilarious uh part where you like in order to get the percentages normal, you literally say, take 220 grams of the dough and throw it away.
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+[1:02:33] You're like I you're like, you don't have to throw it away. You can make donuts, just get it out, get it out, get it out of me. Make it go away. You know what I mean? It's a hilarious section.
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+[1:02:41] That's true. I'm glad you're laughing about that because you know, I think when my editor saw that, she's like, People won't throw dough away, Melissa. And I think I just do everything in such large badges in the bakery, and this came from the bakery, and I was like trying to make it friendly for home bakers and trying to bring down the percentages, but I needed a certain amount to be like pre-fermented. And finally I'm like, no, no, no. We're just gonna do it the way I do it in the bakery.
+
+[1:03:05] And we don't really throw away a huge amount at the bakery. We have this little little extra piece, and usually I just give it to my team and they can make staff meal from it, or they have fun with it, they do whatever they want with it. And I was like, Well, what am I gonna do with this extra piece of dough? If I say throw the dough away in a cookbook, that's sort of sacrilegious. And so I was just trying to figure out what would I want to do with the dough if I had to make staff meal with the extra dough, and I think donut I like donuts, so yeah, if you have a fryer going for sure.
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+[1:03:33] Yeah, so while we're on panettone, and it's like like it looks like a real deal recipe, and the pictures, everything looks real deal. Where do people get those liners anyway? Just get them on the internet now. Yeah, you can get them on the internet. I used to get them at New York Cake and Baking in the city.
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+[1:03:48] I if it's still open, it probably isn't. It is still open, yeah. They've reopened, and I I feel that since they've moved locations, they're not as viciously mean as they used to be. Oh, yeah, no, that's true. They're it's very different at their new location.
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+[1:04:01] And I think I used to hate the hell out of them. Yeah, I know. They're not very nice. Yeah, they can be mean. Um, and they're hurt with most people, and I think that they have changed.
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+[1:04:12] They probably have a slightly different, maybe the staff is different, but yeah, you can get the panettone liner, panettone liners there, and you can get all different, they're all different sizes. I think you can get them on Amazon at this point too. Um, and I don't think they uh yeah, I don't think they have the giant no baby stroller sign anymore. I just like you know, dude, it's anyway, yeah. Yeah, all right, yeah.
+
+[1:04:35] But like, yeah, so like the turning upside down, otherwise the sucker's gonna deflate, right? Yeah, yeah, that's happened to me so many times at home. I'm like, oh damn it, like I just made this beautiful loaf of bread, and I just took it out of the oven and I wasn't ready to turn it upside down quite yet, and it already deflated. And that's one where you use bread flour for the structure, right? Yeah.
+
+[1:04:54] Exactly. Um so we have a question that's been floating around for weeks, and that I have not answered. I didn't answer any questions outside questions this week. But uh Michael Vahavi wrote in, uh, hey uh Dave and Nastasia, I've been making uh panettone this year using a stiff starter or a pasta madre. I'm hoping you can shed some light on why the stiff starter, and you wrote about this in the book, which is why I'm pitching this to you, on why the stiff starter is maintained in water and why it's necessary to give the occasional bath and very dilute sugar solution.
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+[1:05:23] So far, it's been working and they have a great rise and low acid, but is all this necessary? It feels like nonsense folk science to me. Thanks, Mike from Toronto. So maybe you can talk about why it's stiff, which you talk about in the book, but then maybe whether some of these other things are actually necessary. Well, I think it's it's historical, right?
+
+[1:05:40] You had a stiff starter, and you were the baker and you had to do everything, and you're basically sleeping in the room where you're baking in. And so you needed something where you didn't have to feed it so much. So the less water and the more flour you give it, the stiffer it is, the less you actually have to feed it. It's actually it was it it made sense from like a workload, it made it easier. But you know, anytime you have something that's stiffer like that, you have a different flavor profile.
+
+[1:06:07] You usually have more acetic acid in in dough that has more stiffness because of the it ferments more slowly. It get it it has more bacteria and it produces acetic acid as a result. And so, but I think I think I wanted just an approachable, like if you're making it at home, you could go the route of making a really, really traditional panettone. And I wanted to do that, but I also wanted to make it approachable, like approachable for somebody at home, and approachable for me, actually. And so approachable for me means not have not converting because remember what I said in the beginning.
+
+[1:06:44] I really abhor when there are like five different starters that you have to maintain. And so there's no way I'm going to have uh uh a stiff starter going and a liquid starter going and a whole wheat stiff starter going and a spelt starter going. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna have just one starter, but then if I need to convert it to my to my recipe, and I found that this one works better if you do convert this your liquid starter to a stiff starter, that I would convert it, and then I also, you know, I also add yeast to my panettone, commercial yeast, and traditionally it's supposed to be solely raised with um with the with the sourdough starter. Yeah, a lot of people are afraid to do that, and hey people, it works, yeast and sourdough works.
+
+[1:07:31] Yeah, no, it I think I think I got a question recently because they're like you can put yeast and sourdough starter and it doesn't kill it, and it's it's so so much of a bakery thing. I think all professional bakers do that because it controls the fermentation. If you have yeast, it ferments it a little faster, depends on the amount of yeast you use, but also that changes the thickness of the crust. So, like most bakeries use a combination of the two, and so I use a combination of the two in all of these recipes. I don't think there's one recipe in this book that is just sourdough starter, and I think that that was one of the things that was important to me in this book, which is a more of a sweet baking book, was to not have it all just because once you start to talk just about sourdough starter, and that's the only thing that's leavening your bread, you have to get more technical about it and be more.
+
+[1:08:20] Not that this book isn't already precise enough, but you need to know what you're doing, and there's more, I there is more science to it. Yeah, yeah. So, and uh here's a I don't know, there's Zet Nastasia dinging me uh ding me waiting. Here's here's five. We do have to go so here's a here's a piece of writing.
+
+[1:08:37] When you see writing like this, you know you're dealing with someone's disconnected, I don't know why. Oh, yeah, oh uh here's writing that's clearly from a professional. I love this. To me, this is the kind of uh insight that you hear only from pros. Uh so there's a recipe for a tahini white chocolate chunk, but you're like you'll understand why, but it's like not long ago.
+
+[1:08:59] This is the quote, not long ago, it seemed like all of a sudden many bakers I know started baking with tahini. And this is what it is like in the real professional world is like you're sitting there, you're doing your work, yeah, and all of a sudden this recipe starts popping up all like this ingredient starts popping up all around. It happens with in baking, it happens in kitchens. But I think the average person at home, they only notice this stuff when it's on the internet, but these things are it's not an internet thing. This has been happening since before people were sharing recipes on the internet, things just blossom and bloom.
+
+[1:09:29] Yeah, so true. Yeah, you very rarely see people write about it in the way that you wrote about it, and I'm like, yeah, that's an experience I understand. That's really nice to hear. I'm like, am I following? I usually try not to follow trends, and I'm like, but you have to to a certain degree.
+
+[1:09:44] And I'm like, am I a trend follower that I want to use tahini in a in a cookie recipe? And I think I wanted to be able to rationalize it to myself. Yeah, but it's like, I don't know, it's like when you're doing any of this stuff long enough, you just realize it's so weird how these things like all of a sudden float into existence and then flow shut again. Yeah, no, that's true. I just used ube powder in a shortbread cookie.
+
+[1:10:07] And I was like a year ago, I'm like, I am not using ube, I refuse. I'm not making anything ube. And now here, look, I've got an ube cookie, and I really like it. Yeah. Yeah I mean it's I it's it's uh it's funny.
+
+[1:10:18] Uh so are there any recipes that they're gonna kick kick us off soon any recipes I haven't brought to attention that uh that uh you you really want people to know about I I like that you covered the panettone I like that you covered the Quinamon those are like really and I like that you touched on some of the bread recipes too that's cool. I like that. And what and obviously you're you're a I mean if you look at the cover you're a babka lover you're a babka style person. I didn't mention that but you have several different not just several different types of bodka babka seven styles of dough for babka you like it's like a there's it's it's quite in depth on the babka so I didn't bring that up to this book is not light by the way people listen to this that's the yeah yeah yeah yeah oh the book made the book sound yeah it's a heavy book babka I started making babka before it became trendy and I wrote a really good recipe for the bobco that was featured in Food and Wine magazine in January of 2016 and it was such a well written recipe that they put the babka on the cover in January on Food and Wine magazine which is pretty unheard of for a sweet to be on a magazine in January and it just sort of blossomed into this babka trend and I had no idea it was going to be a trend but I had been making these very like ashkenazi styled babkas like so so bready not not laminated babka for for Sadels and then I just everybody loved it so much that I just started making different flavors and chocolate and cinnamon and then just went from there. Yeah.
+
+[1:11:49] All right. Who's uh who's uh you call for unbleached uh pastry uh whole wheat pastry flour who do you use you use bob's for your recipe I use bob's yeah absolutely and it when I'm here in New York I'll use um uh uh oh it's a local like a local whole wheat pastry flour you can substitute all purpose flour if you can't find whole wheat pastry flour because I know that that can be a little bit tricky. Several times in the book you mentioned that you don't own a blender why the hate I like oh you have a I have a small apartment there's no hate it's just you know I'll do stuff at work I have a RoboCoup at work I have um a Vitamix at work but at home I just don't have enough space and I found that I can mostly do everything in a food processor at home. And uh also you uh like like all great pastry chefs I've known have something against beet sugar. What is it?
+
+[1:12:40] Oh you call out cane several times I I don't even know why anymore. I think I used to know why maybe 15 or 20 years ago there it was about the process and the aftertaste and I'm trying to remember whose book I would have read were to have given me the idea that beet sugar was bad. Maybe I used to say it through a scum during boiling work, right? So like they they they used to say like uh and at the FCI they used to teach us maybe that's what we're doing. Yeah no there was it definitely went it goes way back to the time that I was living in San Francisco and and I was just like oh no no I have got to get cane sugar but now I don't even know why.
+
+[1:13:16] So I think that I think you're right. It must that must be part of it. Well the the I mean I I I've never you know thankfully for for me never had to spend like day after day boiling sugar but that's what they that's what they really used to say it was a kind of a a a big deal. Oh wow. All right.
+
+[1:13:32] So uh I didn't answer hardly any questions uh there came in, and I'm also probably not gonna answer that many next week because next week we have uh Joey Scladani on. Joey wrote a book called uh basic. Now, John, it's basic bitching, right? Base basic bitching. Now listen, normally, people, this isn't like normally like what we what we were talking about today, a good bake with Melissa Weller is more normally our our speed, right?
+
+[1:13:59] Uh, but I received uh Joey's book and I read it. I have to say, the the attitude of it is you check it out beforehand, the attitude of it is uh he you know, he spends his day writing and thinking about like high-end, well thought out food, and he wants to come home and just be a basic, you know, whatever. So which by the way, uh I can appreciate that, especially i in the COVID times. So uh uh Joey's gonna be on uh on the next one. But this week we've had uh Melissa Weller with her new book, A Good Bake, which was featured by the New York Times, was it not?
+
+[1:14:32] Yes, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, featured by the New York Times. Fantastic. Pick it up at uh, you know, if you can, if you live in New York, get her from Kitchen Arts and Letters, support those folks. It's a big hefty book with a nice what do you call this color anyway?
+
+[1:14:45] What is this? It's not peach, it's not, it's not, it's like peach with cream. What color is it? Pink. Pink, yeah.
+
+[1:14:52] Pink. I think it's like a yeah, masculine pink. Yeah, and a very dark, like sauce-covered vodka thing on the front, like a real, like, like a good good bake in the in the way that the Europeans would say, like, you know, cooked, like cooked, cooked dark, right? So it's like a nice, like rich. Yeah, bien quin.
+
+[1:15:10] Yeah, yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. John, you can say it for me, because I can't uh I'm not gonna do the pronunciation.
+
+[1:15:16] Bianc. Um, yeah, nice. Uh well, anyway, thanks for coming on. Uh, I enjoyed having you. Pick up uh a good bake.
+
+[1:15:23] Um then you know, maybe maybe someday, you know, when this is all over, we can, you know, go uh have uh bagels or maybe even maybe a concrete grape pie. Yeah, that's that's yeah, I'd love that. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun.
+
+[1:15:37] All right, well, thanks. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:15:50] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:16:12] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:29] This episode brought to you by Appeal, helping you to enjoy your fruits and vegetables at peak freshness and reduce food waste. Learn more at appeal.com, A P E E L dot com. Uh joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez at her undisclosed location in Southern California. How you doing, Nastasia? Good.
+
+[1:03] Yeah? It's like good. Just want to get to the meat of the show. Just I don't know. Excited to get to that.
+
+[1:12] All right, fine. Uh we got uh we got John in uh New York City in his upper east side uh uh customer service, Heidi Hole. How you doing, John? Doing well, thank you. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:23] And uh on unusual because she's such a fan of our actual guest. Oh, we have Matt in his booth, in his Rhode Island booth. Didn't mean to leave you out there, Matt. Fancy, thank you. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:36] Uh we have Rebecca, the boondoggler. Algovic's here, our uh intrepid PR uh agent, do not call her a flak. She does not enjoy being called a flag. Is that true? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:49] We we talk about this pretty much every time I'm on the show, I feel like. I know, but like I still don't understand it. And interestingly enough, just challenging. So it's still true. Our guest, by the way, started out his career in PR, and so maybe he can give me a better understanding of why it is considered uh, you know, uh not a good term.
+
+[2:14] We have on the show today, editor, uh, editor at large, still editor at large, right? Correct? Because that title hasn't changed, right? Uh, it has changed. I'm a free I'm a free age.
+
+[2:25] I oh, I can't wait to dive into that one. All right. Former, former editor at large, and whatever editor at large means anyway. I've always wondered. It's kind of a cool title, but I don't really know what it means.
+
+[2:36] Uh at Chow Hound. Uh, we have Joey Splodani here with his new book, Basic, Basic Bitch. And you basically take Kitchen and you knock the K off and you replace it with a B, and you have the basic bitching. Welcome. Thank you.
+
+[2:50] Thanks for having me. I feel like I um going to be a different guest than uh what you usually have. So yeah, and and uh on the flip side, we're probably gonna be asking you maybe slightly different things than your average uh person interviewing you wouldn't be asking you anyway. So can't wait. I feel like it's uh so so alright, so I was gonna go into things, but since it's recently and you said you're ready to dish on this whole no longer the editor of large and chow hound, uh go.
+
+[3:16] Yeah, no, so Chow Hound is actually CBS Interactive's food and lifestyle brand. I've been with uh them for about three years, and we were kind of part of this whole Red Ventures acquisition where they took over CBS Interactive entirely. So what's just Red Ventures anyway, before you go, because I read that, but I have no idea what a Red Venture is. Yeah, it's a media company, so they own Point Sky, uh Greatest, Healthline. Uh yeah, so the state of Chow Hound right now is kind of TVD.
+
+[3:47] So people still assume I'm associated with them, but I'm like, no, because we're not creating any more content. So no no one is. It's not just you. It's just not just me. Yeah, the entire staff was laid off.
+
+[4:02] So see you as they do. Yeah, tough times, tough times. But it's so strange because you would assume that like, you know, people need this kind of food information via the internet now more than ever. It seems like a weird move, no? One would think, but I think it was just part of this overall deal where honestly CNET was our flagship site, and it's worth a hell of a lot more than Chow Hound's worth, uh, just because of their readership and the advertising revenue that they get.
+
+[4:32] So we were kind of packaged in with them, and that's just how it how it happened. But ultimately, it's good for me because now I have no more exclusivity and I can do my own thing. So congratulations. Back in the day, if you were gonna buy a uh a printer, man, CNET was the place to go on the on those reviews. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:54] Like, I gotta buy a I gotta buy a camera, I'll go on CNET. You know what I mean? Like that was the thing. Yeah, I mean, that's still their bread and butter, and they're I'm assuming they're gonna continue with that. But uh yeah, it's it's gonna be interesting to see maybe how they incorporate Chow Hound and potentially some kitchen appliance reviews um into it.
+
+[5:15] So we'll see. Everything's TVD, kind of like all of this year. So we so when you were working at Chow Hound, like how much did you feel like you know, you guys were you know not given the like the full power that you should have because you were part of this like CNET big brother situation? Like, did it feel like that or did it not feel like that day to day? You know, it was nice because we did really work independently.
+
+[5:41] We were very unique to the portfolio. There was nobody else doing food in the space uh when it came to CBS. So uh they didn't really dictate a lot of our content other than I would say maybe kind of e-commerce driven things because everybody loves you know, a gift guide. Um everybody loves um God, we were doing just like product ro roundups during some of these like major food holidays and and holidays that we shouldn't even be celebrating. Um that was kind of what they were making money off of, but it's just like every other you know business model how can we make the most money um doing the dumbest things.
+
+[6:15] Um, but we really did work independently, and uh that was the beauty of it. You know, we really got to delve into aspects of food that weren't like super mainstream. We got to highlight a lot of chefs and restaurants and stories that a lot of other publications really were at tackling. So I was proud of the work that we did. I didn't feel like we had this corporate umbrella controlling our every move, but uh obviously there was still that small element of it, and as a result, we were sold.
+
+[6:42] You have any you have any uh really uh when you're doing product roundups that you didn't enjoy anything really stand out as something you really hated having to round up a review? So I maintained some editorial integrity here. If I didn't like something, I just didn't write about it uh at all. We just didn't include it. But I will say that's m has more applied to when I did restaurant guides or travel guides.
+
+[7:07] And, and you know, I would visit certain places that uh, you know, maybe a publicist for a travel board put together, and um I just had to kindly tell them I was not going to be writing about their food. So but product-wise, we if if it sucked, uh, we would just tell the publicist and not include it. Right, but there's certain things that like, for instance, in your book, in your book, a basic picture, you take like a kind of no judgment attitude towards so like e even on you hate. I think I'm very judgmental. Oh, no, but like no, but like no judgment, in other words, like you're heavily judgmental about a lot of things, but you are nice to people who want something, and you're like, you can have it.
+
+[7:49] You know what I mean? That kind of no judgment. Yes, fully support. Yeah, that's probably better, Rebecca. No shame is probably better than no judgment.
+
+[7:58] Like, there's always judgment. You know what I mean? Sa same way at the bar, it's like I want you to be happy, but secretly I'm judging you about your order for sure. You know what I mean? But like for instance, like you have a cauliflower uh pizza recipe, and you're like, a few cauliflower people, but here it is because I know you want it.
+
+[8:15] You know what I mean? So like it's an interesting stance it takes. So I'm sure in Chowhan is the same thing. It's like, well, I have to round up this series of things that I personally despise. Yeah.
+
+[8:24] However, it's like I want to give you a quality version of this thing that I despise. So that's where I did kind of have to be a little bit more restrained because I was under the CBS umbrella, you know, where I had you know that corporate influence because you don't want to get an RFP from a client that you know you maybe bashed three months ago and you're scrambling to hide that article. So at the end of the day, they're just there to make money, you know, as all these major corporations are. But um, but yeah, that is the tone I took for my with my book, and I did try to apply it to a lot of my writing. I just had to be a little bit careful with the calling out brands specifically.
+
+[8:58] Right, right. On the cauliflower pizza, by the way. When did that happen? Why did is that an Oprah thing? Did Oprah make that happen?
+
+[9:04] Uh no, because Oprah loves bread. So she shot the mash from the rooftops. But she has a colour, she has a cauliflower pizza brand. She has a pizza brand. Yeah, and the cauliflower mash.
+
+[9:15] Uh yeah, she's she loves a cauliflower moment. I mean, she loves listen, Oprah's got her big old like garden that she likes to show off on Instagram every day. And um, I'm sure that she just like had an abundance of cauliflower and was like, I'm gonna make this a thing, and it became popularized. But um, no, I feel like the cauliflower trend was there a lot longer than than Oprah's, or at least after she gave her seal of approval, made it a favorite thing. Oh yeah, so I guess like I just it does it didn't hit my radar until it got Oprah fight.
+
+[9:47] I mean, I guess you know, like I kind of like just to show you how out of touch I am, I lost touch with Oprah after she decided to sing her own theme song back when she still had that show. I was like, Oprah doesn't need to sing her own. She can get the best singers in the world. I don't have a theme song. You do for the cooking.
+
+[10:06] It's not a single song. I don't hear everything. I love to say the night show. It's not singing. It's not singing.
+
+[10:15] He does. He does sing many a jingle on the show. And you do get musicals, Dave. Yeah, it's true. I mean, who who does not love music?
+
+[10:22] You turned your life into a musical. Look, I love musicals. What do you want out of me? Wait, but Dave, do you like movie musicals? Because I I love musicals.
+
+[10:32] I'm a Broadway queen, but I hate anything that's put on the big screen. What about Mulan Rouge? Uh, not obsessed. Like, and I'll just go off and say I hated the prom. I don't know if you just saw it.
+
+[10:47] I know I didn't say it. Hate it. Oh, not just hate it. Loathed and like I just oh, it was a big miss. What about movies that have songs in them but aren't really musicals like Willy Walk in a chocolate factory?
+
+[11:04] Okay, I can deal with that. Kind of like a Wizard of Oz situation. Um that's fine. I think the only movie musical I was obsessed with was Chicago. Yeah, I never saw it.
+
+[11:15] Never saw it. What about Sounds? Was that Renee Zellweger did that? Yeah, Renee Zellweg, yeah, and Kathlezeta Jones. Um music, yeah, that's fine.
+
+[11:22] I feel like some of the the classics I can deal with more. Um because it is like it's supposed to be kind of campy and it it works for the times. But like South Pacific, like South Pacific, yes, no. Yeah, yes, yes. I don't know.
+
+[11:37] It's just it's kind of a general, I don't know. They rub me the wrong way. I don't know. I agree. Womp womp.
+
+[11:44] Nastasia doesn't like a movie. I'm not obsessed with those either, because I'm like, you're completely manipulating like my childhood memories, and I just I don't know. Maybe I'm a damaged person and this is like a trigger for me, but let's talk about it. You're talking about that Rebecca, you're talking about the live action Lion King now? Are there other ones?
+
+[12:08] Are you just calling out Lion King? No, no, I'm Mulan. Oh, yeah, I forgot that happened. No, like the live ones that they do that that are like on TV and they like it. Oh yeah.
+
+[12:22] Those are like the Grinch with Matthew Morrison. What? Oh jeez. Who based his Grinch off of uh the Joker? Like what?
+
+[12:32] Really? Every Grinch, every Grinch other than the original just didn't need to exist. And where the hell is Phil Bravo, Nastasi to do his yearly Grinch PS? Are we doing a show next week? I don't know.
+
+[12:45] I need Phil Bronzo's Grinch. I think we have to do a show next week. So I figured then. Next week. Alright.
+
+[12:53] Anyone who anyone who knows this show knows that we are fans of the original Thurl Ravencroft, aka Tony the Tiger singing the Grinch song Boris Carloff doing narration. Yeah, that's it. That's the Grinch. But I will say I do love Jim Carrey as the Grinch. I I know that may be an unpopular opinion, but I I think he's a good one.
+
+[13:13] In my house, that's unpopular. I mean, I look, Jim Carrey's one of those people that like amazingly talented, but like I don't know. Like, okay, Ace Ventura, could you watch that whole movie? Like the first three minutes of the funniest thing that's ever been filmed ever when he's that UPS guy, but the rest of it, I mean, really? I Jim Carrey, I either love him or hate him, you know what I mean?
+
+[13:34] And Grinches. What about us? He's a he's a great Biden. I think he's a great Biden. You know, but I don't know, what I don't know.
+
+[13:43] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how we got into it. Yeah, sure.
+
+[13:47] Joey, I saw in your bio that you've been struck by lightning. Yes. Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Can we talk about that? Sure can.
+
+[13:56] Um I it was the summer before my freshman year of college. I grew up in Florida, and you know, lightning's a bit unpredictable. And I was walking my dog, my dog was on a retractable leash. I lived on a cul-de-sac across the way I was getting the mail. Lightning actually hit the tree next to me, and the current traveled underneath, I guess, because of its roots, but it literally zapped my feet.
+
+[14:20] Um, I had welts and um like lacerations going up my legs, and literally all my hair was like standing on edge, and I had to go to the ER, and they ran a bunch of tests. But if it was a direct hit, I would have I wouldn't be talking to you right now. But yeah, hit hit the dog. The dog was fine, but this was what was so crazy because the dog was across the street on an uh island of g uh island of grass, but I jumped so high and so quickly when it happened that my dog's entire collar came off over his head without snapping off. Like I jerked it, yeah.
+
+[14:57] I jerked it that quickly. It was almost like a Houdini trick, and it just yeah, it was it was crazy. And then I was so disoriented, I actually ran opposite direction of my house. All I could see was like checkerboards in my brain. It was so bizarre.
+
+[15:12] The flash of light ruined my vision for a good 30 seconds. I ran opposite of my house, and um, by the time I kind of realized what happened, I just literally collapsed within our by my front door. It was it was awful. Could could could you what's it like? Could you even hear it?
+
+[15:28] Was it so loud that you couldn't even hear it? Like did your eardrums rupture? Yeah, no, my eardrums did not rupture, but it was extremely loud. It was like that that pop um of sound, and it was more so just ringing, and my my ears were ringing nonstop after that. But um how how is this not in your bio on on your website.
+
+[15:47] It is. No, I didn'm not sure. I feel like I'm like it's on the Amazon, it's on Amazon. That's where I Amazon. Yeah, for the book.
+
+[15:54] I was like, I did all her research, Dave. Joey, Joey, Joey. If I if I was gonna write an about me, and I got struck by lightning, that would be PS struck by lightning. It would be like Dave Lightning Arnold. You know what I mean?
+
+[16:09] I don't know. I want my other talents to speak for themselves. I'm sorry. That's what I put it. I put it in.
+
+[16:17] I put it in my book bio. If you get struck right before you arrive on campus freshman year, you've gotta be known as like the lightning kid, though, right? Oh, that's the lightning boy. No, I was just known as the closeted homosexual. That's basically that's that was my college uh nickname.
+
+[16:35] Um, I I don't know, because it I it's just it's Florida. Like, how Florida can that story be where you just like casually are getting the mail and then lightning hits a tree next to you and you get struck? I don't know, it's just kind of something you brush off. But uh Florida were now uh Naples, Florida. Oh Naples, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[16:55] You ever go to that big marble uh big marble house? What is that ringling brothers, Barnum house, that big giant marble house? Isn't that in Naples? No, that's in Sarasota. Yeah, I think that's Sarasota.
+
+[17:06] The the circuit the circus is Sarasota, but I thought one of their mansions was down in Naples. My memory gets bad as I get older. It may be. There are a lot of random ass mansions in Naples, Florida. Yeah, I I went you ever go to the circus in Sarasota?
+
+[17:18] That was uh that was fun. I used to do that. No, I never never went. Nah, nah. That museum is wild.
+
+[17:24] Yeah, it did uh the cloud the clown college was there back in the day. It was. Uh did you ever did your taste buds change at all? Or did you have any like lingering like temporary when you got hit by lightning? Was like seriously, your sense of smell, or did anything get whacked out?
+
+[17:39] Like, did you have like some sort of spidey sense? Like, I'm just gonna kind of curious. No, the only like sensory thing that I noticed right away is that all of the saliva in my mouth was just gone. Like it evaporated. Uh so I I mean my go-to wasn't to go grab a bag of Cheetos.
+
+[17:56] It was to, you know, get rushed to the emergency room. But afterwards, I I don't nothing was lingering. And even the doctor, like, you know, they did the EKG, they did um the I think they I did I even get an MRI. I don't even remember. Um, but they ran a million tests, blood tests, everything, and I was fine.
+
+[18:14] Never noticed anything lingering. I wish I had a spidey sense that I developed, you know, after the fact, but no, nothing. Yeah. Well, you you make one up and then blame it on the lightning or attribute it to the lightning. Ever well, you know what?
+
+[18:27] As I feel like I'm starting to slip mentally, I I you know I keep blaming the pandemic. Maybe I should start blaming the lightning strike. There you go. There you go. So so before we get into the present, one more thing from your past.
+
+[18:40] You did PR for TLC, which why is that called the Learning Channel? What is anyone learning on that? It's not, they've re they rebranded it as just TLC, even when I was there, but they just didn't want to change it, I guess. Um so even though it stands for the learning channel, we never put that in any of our press materials. It was just always TLC.
+
+[19:00] And and you you ran the PR for a show that is currently ruining my life here in in my house because my son Booker is obsessed with my strange addiction. Only he thinks it's freaking real. Can you just tell him that like not to try to emulate any of these my strange addiction people? For real? Do not emulate, but it's absolutely real.
+
+[19:25] I'm telling you. Listen to this. I know. It's not the magic of television. These are actual people who reach out to the production company during casting who have legitimate issues.
+
+[19:35] And frankly, it's like the only time they can get help. It's a it's almost like a last cry for help, um, either because they're uninsured or they just don't have the means to you know to to find a psychiatrist. But a lot of these cases uh or all of them were real. We just, you know, obviously had to go through the vetting process and make sure that they could be put on television. Um, but it was the craziest experience.
+
+[20:00] And I would work with the production team being like, okay, which one of these lists of 12 people this season are, I guess, sane enough to be on television and do press interviews. So that was my job as kind of gleaning through and being like, okay, this person drinks their own blood, but they'd be great on Dr. Oz. Well, that that checks out that totally. You know, I I I worked for Dr.
+
+[20:29] Oz for a summer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. When he was still doing actual doctor work, he ran a lab at Columbia where my mom's a uh professor, a doctor. And so I would get jobs at the at the labs, and you know, I was in his lab, it was crazy.
+
+[20:44] It was before he was big, before he was famous, but it's kind of weird. He that summer we were also working with um Dr. Jarvik, who is you know the person who made the purse first fake heart they put into somebody. Yeah, you know, my mom's in a trans map rope, which we're Jarvic quack, dude. I don't know, you see, my many was a nice guy, but like the stu the research we were doing, like it was we fundamentally sowed.
+
+[21:06] So I don't know how many much you guys think of human hearts, but like the left ventricle is like the strong thing that pumps out to the rest of the body, right? It's like the strongest part of the heart because it's oomph where it pumps the blood out to the rest of your body. And so they when your left ventricle is not strong enough, they make these things called L VADs, left ventricular assist device devices. This is back in the early 90s, numb, maybe not even, maybe late 80s, early 90s, I can't remember. And um, so everyone was making these things.
+
+[21:32] And so Dr. Jarvik came to Dr. Oz's lab because they developed this one that was like it looked like a little freaking mixer, dude. It was like an inline blender. And we're like, yo, this is gonna like ruin the blood, because blood, I don't know if you know this, blood doesn't like to be hacked up into tiny pieces, you know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:50] It's like it wants to go gently, like your your heart goes, not you know what I mean. And so we we're like, ah, so like they got this sheep, we put the sheep, the sheep, you know, it's a sheep. And you know, we it's you know, me and the other knuckleheads my age, we're assisting them with the operation, and we have to take care of the sheep afterwards. Sheep wakes up, it's like man, boom, hits the ground, dies. So like, yeah, yeah, it's blood that turned into slushy.
+
+[22:18] Yeah. We're like, yo, doesn't work, man. Doesn't work. Anyway, uh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:27] Yeah. You know what you don't want to visit? It like any place that they do uh animal testing, they they have a place where you have to, yeah, you have to dispose of the end. Well, the really sad thing is another summer I worked there, they were doing research, another heart, uh heart transplant research, because yeah, you you really when you're doing heart transplants, like one of the big things they've gotten really, really good at it, but when they were like earlier on, they they they used to have to try to figure out what kind of fluid they were gonna put it in, right? So like because they don't just like it it it you know they they have to perfuse it with like uh you know like some sort of fluid to mimic bodily fluid so it doesn't dry out or get all nasty as it's going in literally in a freaking igloo cooler in an airplane, like helicopter, learjet, however they're getting it from like the unfortunate donor to the lucky uh recipient, like it's in this, and so like they we were testing different fluids.
+
+[23:16] So literally we would get a pig, they would cut its heart out, they would cut a piece of the heart, put it in the fluid, and then take two little four steps and go and stretch it to see how stretchy the heart muscle was afterwards, and try to backcorrelate that to how likely you were to be able to resuscitate a patient or get the heart started again. But the here's the bad part. I don't know, this is why I brought it up. We were not allowed to use the rest of the pig. Once a pig has been used for medical research, even though we weren't putting any nasty stuff into it, it all had to go to waste.
+
+[23:49] How'd the pressing set? No Sunday morning bacon, that's sad. No, although I have to say, you do you guys know what a bovey is? So the bo above is like an electrocoter cottery device. So like it's it looks like it looks like a little tiny like spatula, like metal spatula, and and it like me and you like it cauterized the things.
+
+[24:14] Dr. Pimple Popper uses those. Uh oh, nice. Is that is that is that the new Dr. Zismore?
+
+[24:20] Is Dr. Is Dr. Pimple Popper the new Sismore? No, she's like way beyond that. She has a YouTube following of like nine million people and has a show on TLC actually, now.
+
+[24:32] It all comes full circle, yeah. Look, uh in my in my heart, the only dermatologist is Dr. Z. So, because I've broke watching stuff on the subject, but anyway. But anyway, thank you, Dr.
+
+[24:43] Zizmula. Remember this ads? Anyone remember his ads? Anyway, uh, yeah, it's like all these like you know, classic like New York, mopey New York types who are like, Thank you, Dr. Zismula.
+
+[24:55] I used to love that. Anyway, and on the subway, like the picture of like the the poor like teenager with like you know, like she had all kinds of skin problems, and then her with a big smile on her face afterwards. Thanks, Dr. Zizma. Anyway, uh, so anyway, so the the issue is when you're using one of these, when you're gonna operate on a human, you use a scalpel and you cut, you know, you make a nice cut and you use the electrocottery device to cauterize bleeders.
+
+[25:18] You know, and then plus we had what we used to call the Mr. Thirsty, you know, the the vacuum machine like you would have at the dentist to like get rid of all the fluids. But the surgeons didn't care because the pigs were on their way out, you know. I mean, they weren't gonna, so they would they didn't want blood everywhere, so they would literally make the incision with the with the bogey with the electrocottery device, and the whole room smelled like a mixture of death and and cooked pork, and so like every day I had to go out and eat BLTs just to reaffirm that I could still do this because it was so gross to me. What you were eating BLTs every day that you were working in this place?
+
+[25:57] I had to. I had I had to look otherwise, I didn't want to go clockwork orange on this thing, right? Where I can't listen to Beethoven anymore, so I had to like go out and do a bit. You know what I mean? Uh-huh.
+
+[26:08] Wow. Yikes. I thought I would have taken a couple years. You were stealing the meat and bringing it all back in with it. So I feel like this is a win for everyone.
+
+[26:19] They they oh they would have caught you. They would have caught you. Like, we we tried to use the parts, so like there was someone like there was someone like a couple floors down who was doing research on a different origin. And occasionally they'd be like, Can we come up and get the ingestions? We're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[26:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm gagging. Oh my god. It's like, do you want a little formaldehyde with your you know, ham hock?
+
+[26:44] No, man. I I wish we had the formaldehyde, man. Dude, it's makes this makes your dissection room in high school look so mellow. And then when you uh like like God bless the people who I mean, whatever. There when you get when you're done with it, you have to go to this place that we used to have a sign on it, necropsy room.
+
+[27:01] That's where all the animal carcasses went afterwards. Oh my god, horror show. Like a complete, a complete horror show. Like, if you like, look, you know, we were very indoctrinated while we were going about the needs for vivisection for medicine and all this stuff, but if you have any anti-vivisection inclinations at all, if anyone secreted a camera into the into the necropsy disposal room, I mean, oh my god, it is a horror show. You know, it's like uh yeah, I'm yeah, all right, yay.
+
+[27:38] Uh, I'm like, you're triggering a PTSD because I took an animal rights class in college, and I legitimately went vegan for two weeks after that because I was horrified by what I saw, and now it's bringing back those memories. So that again. I was just gonna say thank you for you know speeding up this what was supposed to be a 2021 diet. Yeah, yeah, yikes. Yikes, you know, I'm I'm nothing if not triggering, right, Nastasia?
+
+[28:07] True. Yeah. Uh so speaking of triggering, you bring up Yankee Candle two times in your book. Do they really have a farmer's market scented Yankee candle? You better believe it.
+
+[28:20] And do you know how pissed off I am that the their PR person hasn't caught on yet and sent me like cases of them? Like, hey, if anyone out there's listening, send Joey's candles already. Yes, this looks free publicity for them. No, they do. It's a farmer, it's called Farmer's Market, and I'm obsessed.
+
+[28:37] What's it smell like? A farmer's market. But what's that smell like? No, it's like it's like cinnamon brooms. It's like Joey.
+
+[28:46] Dave and I have a farmer's market uh scavenger. Is it a scavenger hunt, Dave? Where you have to catch all of the things you have to find one hungover chef, a lesbian couple fighting about some type of fruit or vegetable, children learning about uh strange things, and the smell of lavender. What else was there, Dave? That's epic.
+
+[29:06] Uh well, well, Nastasia, do you want to pitch our other show where it's like who wants to be a millionaire? But the final nope. All right. She keeps saying no. I do think you should publish the whole scavenger hunt list like in the early spring in the Booger and Bax newsletter.
+
+[29:21] That's a good newsletter, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Alright. All right.
+
+[29:24] But we we but we can never in public talk about our other show, right, Stas? Yeah, let's okay. Your PR person is on the phone. So this is like the one week where you can't get away with this. Yeah.
+
+[29:34] This is why I don't listen to the show the rest of the time. Because I get too stressed. Sure, sure. All right, so Joey, uh, I forget what where you say it, but you you express your your well uh, you know, your correct hatred of malls. But yeah, for anyone for anyone who's old enough, none of you guys, like there used to be a candle store called Wicks and Sticks, and it was not a mall without wicks and sticks.
+
+[29:56] That is the 70s, 80s candle store like to beat and I feel like I feel like like Yankee Candle they have their own stores Yankee Candle right they don't just they don't only sell like in other places don't they? Yeah they have their and they knock you back right someone opens a Yankee candle door and go right it's like oh I love it. I welcome it with open arms I bathe in it it's a it makes like Sephora smell neutral it's like so it's it's like the entire corner of the mall like King of Prussia outside of Philadelphia like you could immediately tell when you were in like a 300 foot vicinity of the Yankee candle store I love it it's amazing. Good branding I want to make a I want to make a pitch for the wicks and sticks because I don't I have I I can't go into a Yankee candle store because of like triggering like I'll pass out from the aroma but like they don't do a lot of figure they don't do a lot of figure candles right that's why wicks and sticks were so awesome you need an old man candle wicks and sticks you need a candle in the shape of a weird kind of like dark crystal Muppet bird like wicks and sticks you know I'm saying yeah were they scented to reflect the shapes that they wore too like would there be like old man scent because I'm really into that idea uh okay so there so a flavor house that we used to work with David Michael had a of a scent called like old man flavor and body and it was a whiskey flavoring also one then wanted to make Dave's musk scent which is so disgusting remember that Dave well the idea is disgusting. I wouldn't uh co-sign that I am personally.
+
+[31:33] I mean, I am disgusting, but not because of my aroma. She was so into it it. It's just so gross to think. How do you do that? Do you take samples of like your sweat?
+
+[31:43] I don't know, man. I don't know. She's she's an expert. I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[31:47] I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Clayton and answer your question. Clayton in the chat claims that they saw someone having a seizure and Yankee candle because of the smell.
+
+[31:58] At least that's why they assume it happened. That's amazing. But also, I hope they're well. Yeah, yes. Okay, thank you.
+
+[32:11] Thank you for being a human, Joey. You're like that person's still alive. Kind of it's kind of rare when that happens, but yeah. Well, you're you're the North Star on the show. To answer your question, Rebecca, no, the figure they had scented candles at Whips and Sticks, but the figures were not scented because back in the 70s, people would buy these candles and then not burn them.
+
+[32:34] They would just sit on your shelf for decades. It was weird. Anyway. So if you get this book, which by the way, like I gotta be honest with you, Joey. When someone pitched this book to come on, I'm like, really?
+
+[32:48] Come on, man. Come on, it's not our style. And I read it, I had to say it's a charming book. It's a charming book. And uh because I like the attitude.
+
+[32:55] Your attitude is hey, listen, like I spend all day like for work dealing with these finely nuanced freaking things. And sometimes I just want what I freaking want, and I just want it. And we all do, and you should embrace that. Would you say it's accurate? 100%.
+
+[33:12] I always say I'm a professional eater, not a professional chef. And I this book has actually been an education for me. I didn't go to culinary school. I was learning things along the way. I worked with a recipe developer, and I'm the first to admit that.
+
+[33:26] So yeah, I wanted these no fuss recipes. But I also like wanted people to not be as intimidated by the kitchen because frankly, the majority of my cooking was done at three in the morning, coming back from the clerbs and kind of throwing things in a pot and seeing what happens. And I wanted these recipes to be translated into things that you can actually make or the general public can actually make, but have them be fun. And if they mess things up along the way, you can at like at least make fun of me instead of putting so much pressure on yourself. So yeah, that's totally my tone.
+
+[33:58] It's just good basic food, simple food, foods that have, you know, you have all the ingredients in your pantry most of the time. Um you're not afraid to use you're not afraid to be like, listen, buy the sumac. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And like, you know, you you you know, you call for cotiha and crema, which kudos to everyone should have kochiha in their in their fridge for when they run out of their uh other graded cheeses.
+
+[34:24] But like, by the way, interesting call crema, you use crema several times, and I did not know that that'd become like a like a general knowledge thing, or is it not a general knowledge thing yet? To just use crema. Well, but when you're say crema, are I'm assuming I assumed you meant like crema mexicana, like the very yeah, yeah, yeah. You could get like a cacique one, yeah. Is that a general knowledge thing at this point?
+
+[34:46] Or is that still like rather you need to live in the right neighborhoods? Um, almost kind of live in the right neighborhoods, which I feel I feel like that was the other kind of um side of basic bitching is that you know, obviously it's very, it's very simple, it's very approachable, but a true basic bitch also loves trendy things, you know. You know, like he or she will be like, ooh, moringa, you know, I want to put that in my smoothie, and they have no idea what the hell it is, but because someone said it's gonna, you know, do something good for them, make their skin glow a little bit more, they'll add it. So I feel like crema's one of those things, you know, you see maybe like Aron Sanchez, you know, cooking with it all the time. You're like, ooh, that looks good.
+
+[35:23] It's creamy and it's on Mexican food. Why the hell not? You know? So um things like a little bit of both. I think it's become definitely more mainstream, but it's also one of those things that's like extra.
+
+[35:35] Right. Well, and and in your book you put things that are crazy that you don't necessarily like you can't you do kale chips, although you admit that you actually like kale chips. I could be almost all I mean, like the whole kale thing, I don't get. I like cooked kale as a green, but like kale chips aren't kale chips aren't bad, but or like you have a you you you know, you you went through you say a whole bunch of iterations to come up with a uh a smoothie that you found tolerable, right? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[36:00] Yeah. Because you're like, you realize that your reader is gonna want these kinds of things, so at least you want something that's not like exactly. Um, you know, it that's the thing. I wanted to tailor it around everyone's individual likes and preferences, and I also wanted to take dietary restrictions into consideration because people participate either in fad diets or they just have genuine, you know, health issues. And I wanted everything to just be easy enough so that it was customizable.
+
+[36:28] But um, it's funny you say you you like a cooked kale as opposed to a kale on its own. Because I actually prefer, I don't like cooked if I well, A, I should I should preface it by saying if I cook kale, I should be putting on a pair of pens also because it just does not work with my stomach. So but the best kale salad that I swear will change your mind is at the Hollywood Roosevelt. It's so specific, I know. But they do a kale salad with a garlic vinaigrette with like parmesan cheese and pancetta and pine nuts and currants.
+
+[36:57] It is life-changing. If you hate kale, just fly to LA when you can and go to the Hollywood Roosevelt and get their kale salad. So I'm telling you, it'll change your mind, and I make it now almost every Christmas. So that sounds lovely. Aww, and speaking of kale going through your system when it's cooked, you have a get your motor running recipe for your celery uh green juice.
+
+[37:21] But is that the reason most people eat those things? Is to get their motor running? Because me, I just drink espresso. Yeah, there you go. I mean, so it's so funny.
+
+[37:28] I actually just started drinking coffee because of those those issues. I actually have colitis, so I have to be very careful with what triggers a flare up. Um trigger, I feel like is the key word for the day, by the way. Uh yeah. But I so I just now have become accustomed to being able to drink coffee.
+
+[37:46] But yeah, I think, but I do think beyond just intestinal benefits, with a lot of these smoothies and juices that I put in the book, it really is just capitalizing on these health trends that like Kylie Jenner, you know, posts about on Instagram. It's like, this makes my skin beautiful. And while we can poke the tea. Yeah, like dog tea. The tummy tea.
+
+[38:08] Yeah. And while we like definitely poke fun in this whole book, is you know, it's equal parts self-deprecating. It's uh it's also equal parts. No, there is some science behind a lot of these ingredients that are trending based on studies that were done that are supposed to help you with either your skin, your hair, your nails, your, you know, your immunity. Uh so that's why it's gonna it's a little bit of both.
+
+[38:30] Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I I can't like you and I, oh wait, I'm not gonna get into the health arc. I don't, I'm one of these guys who like, I just like I'm gonna eat stuff that's delicious, yes, a wide variety in moderation, and like that's my only that's my only uh health thing that I will ever believe in. Although, yeah, like I say, we got in a huge argument, Nastasia got very mad at me. I believe in sports trainers have like very like you know, performance-based individually tweaked out for each individual human and blah blah blah. I believe all of that's true.
+
+[39:02] So I'm not gonna get into it because I don't want Nastasi to get mad at me again. Uh just so you can get a tone for the book. You know how every book has uh you know how every book has like little things that they have in the sidebars or stuff like that, like you know, anyone who's written a book, we all do it, right? But in this book, they are just the tips. Literally can't even the more you glow and basic basics.
+
+[39:26] So, like uh that because it gives you an idea of the of and some of the tips actually uh pretty good. I have to say, some of the tips are some of the tips are pretty good. Um being honest too, a lot of those tips I learned as I was making these recipes. Because again, I went into this kind of ignorant, I'll be honest. And when I would make something and throw like a dash of you know, hot sauce in, I would need that translated by a recipe developer being like, okay, that's gonna be a quarter teaspoon.
+
+[39:55] And so when I'm delving deeper into what I've been cooking all these years, I you know was doing a lot of research and thinking, what tips can I provide that I would have wanted to know, you know, as I'm making my own recipes, and that's how they that's how they happen. So it's my own ignorance that inspired it. This episode brought to you by Appeal. Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash.
+
+[40:29] We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Because here's the thing: less waste doesn't just mean that we're throwing less food away.
+
+[40:47] It also means we throw away less water, energy, and other resources that go into growing produce. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal. Food gone good.
+
+[41:03] Learn more at Appeal.com. So look going over your recipes, I noticed that a couple of interesting things. Like uh one is that when you make a dressing, not your Caesar, actually, like kudos to you. Like your Caesar is very like traditional, which I feel like you never get a traditional Caesar salad in the case. My mom's, yeah, it's my mom's Caesar salad.
+
+[41:26] Yeah, and that that is real. While I enjoy what is called creamy Caesar now, that is not a Caesar salad. It's not, I mean, like, it's good, you know what I mean? But it's like a real Caesar is a thing, and it's uh it's rather austere and it's a thing of beauty. Although it means the anchovies.
+
+[41:43] If it's that's not the anchovies to me, it's not worthwhile, but that's me. I'm an anchovy lover. Uh I'm sure John has. Uh John, you have probably like very uh what's it called, very strong thoughts about the Caesar, don't you? No.
+
+[41:54] I do, yeah. When I worked at the Breslin, uh April had some very strong thoughts about it as well. So picked up a lot of what uh what she did there. And was she was she rather traditional in it or no? No, she kind of put her own spin on it, but very anchovy-heavy, and then she put in uh we put in a lot of blanch derbs in there as well.
+
+[42:11] Give it a kind of green color. It was very good. Yeah. And uh by the way, you also have a cob recipe, which I appreciate. Everyone loves cob salad.
+
+[42:20] Well, I was gonna say the gag about the the uh I call it the mom's not so sicilian Sicilian Caesar salad, is because I I mean you guys know this probably Caesar salad is not actually Italian, and um my mom, just because I come from a big Italian family, always assumed that because she didn't put a mayonnaise creamy base to her Caesar that it just made it Sicilian. Right. And I had to show her that is there's no such thing as a Sicilian Caesar salad. And she's making there is now, but she was calling that my she's calling it that my entire childhood. Um so that it's just a funny little story about yeah, how it's actually a more authentic Caesar, but um it it's definitely not Sicilian.
+
+[43:08] So but in your potato salad, right? In your potato salad, you know, cla classic, like you know, celery on it, all that stuff, but your your dressing, instead of it being like like very mayonnaise heavy, is a more traditionally salad dressing-y situation of like buttermilk, sour cream, and mayo. What made you go with that? I uh I don't know. I'm just like that, it's weird.
+
+[43:33] I think with the potato salad, it would that was definitely one of those things where it's just those are the ingredients I had in my fridge. Uh other than the buttermilk. I don't always have buttermilk in my fridge, but um, I yeah, I think I don't know. It's just I I actually let I wanted that recipe now that I'm thinking about it, and when I was developing it, I wanted it to be more mustard heavy than anything. I love a Dijon, I love a sharpness.
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+[43:55] I think I have like two tablespoons of Dijon and two tablespoons of whole grain mustard, I want to say. So I when it comes to potato salad, when it came to that specifically, I was more into just the sharpness of it all. Um and I don't want something super creamy to counter that. I don't know. That's just it was a personal preference for me.
+
+[44:13] I'm a mustard whore. Like I'm the type where if you go in my fridge right now, I have at least 15 open jars of mustards. That's amazing. Yeah, and I'm a mustard whore too. Yeah, I mean, I just there's one recently.
+
+[44:27] Oh my gosh, I have to get a family show. Um they mustard lover for mustard. Mustard lover, yeah. Uh um, no, there's a dill pickle mustard that I just tried. It is life-changing.
+
+[44:44] Um, I'm pretty sure you could just put it in Amazon. I bought it at Publix when I was in Florida. And if this is uh this is coming from someone who was struck by lightning saying that this mustard is life-changing. It's it's my favorite. So yeah, long story.
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+[44:55] Where are you right now that you're going to a Publix? You're not. No, I'm I'm back in New York, but I was I was home for Thanksgiving um for about a month, so yeah, yeah, Publix. Man, I haven't been in a Publix in like 15 years. Where shopping is a pleasure.
+
+[45:09] Yeah, yeah. You ever you ever go out to LA and shop at Ralph? I sure have. I knew Ralph's was coming up. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[45:20] The store that sounds like you've thrown it up already. Ralph. Um should do their marketing. Yeah, yeah. So in your potato salad recipe, you intimated that people don't like potato salad anymore.
+
+[45:31] Is that true? I think so. I found it to be very polarizing, and it's because I think a lot of them are just so heavy with the mayonnaise that it makes it turn into a mush. And then when you're bringing it to a picnic during the summer and you're it's getting to room temperature, it's just people look at it as a side of mush. For me, I don't mind it because I love that texture play.
+
+[45:53] Like I'm the type of person where I like soggy cereal. Like I'll go take a bowl of life cereal and let it sit out for 15 minutes before I even eat it. Um but we found actually a chow hound that potato salad was really like off putting and polarizing for people. We had no idea, but it was a texture thing. Huh.
+
+[46:14] Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah. So now listen, I'm gonna give you one where I think we totally agree. Okay. And then one uh one where I totally disagree with you.
+
+[46:23] I'm gonna read this uh section. Uh-oh. Uh the person who invented the open floor office plan deserves each and every one of life's misfortunes. This also applies to the person who decides to eat trail mix in an open office floor plan. There is a time and place for crunch.
+
+[46:39] 1 p.m. on a Thursday during literal crunch time is not ideal, Karen. And while my trail mix, chock full of nuts, dried fruit and chocolate may be hard to resist. It's certainly more appreciated on a hike during a walkthrough park or post berry's boot camp when your cringeworthy chewing noises can be masked by chirping birds and babbling brooks. Thank you in advance for attempting to not turn to be an awful human.
+
+[46:58] Now, I hate crunching, especially when I'm hungry or when I'm working on cooking somebody else's food, or when I'm trying to read or do anything, crunching is a no-no. Okay. I appreciate this section. But do you agree about the off the open office floor plan as well? Because I uh I loathe them.
+
+[47:17] Oh, they're bad, but like to me, like to me, that's like old. That's like that's like old bad. That's like George Bush versus I'm not gonna get into it. Like, that's like that's like the old bad. You know what I mean?
+
+[47:26] Like the new bad is you don't even have your own place in an office floor. You have to put your cap in a cubby at the end of it. Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. Anyway.
+
+[47:34] Dave, was would you say the last open office floor plan you worked in was um the sheepheart uh setup that you want? Maybe. Yeah, yeah. Nastasia and I had that open trash room. It was like, sweet.
+
+[47:54] Now my now my wag of the finger, truffle Mac, truffle Mac, dude. You gotta understand, like, as a guy in his late 40s, like, you know, I'll be 50 50 next year, right? Like, I grew up in the era when people just like cracked open that bottle of truffle oil and were like all over everything. You're walking to like, like, imagine like early Stanton social, like where like it was already like over, but for some reason, like everyone coming in across every bridge and tunnel they could find still wanted their pizza like crust soaked in truffle oil, and you would walk past the bar and be like, whoa! Those were basic bitches.
+
+[48:34] They want their truffle oil. But what I can't do it. But you disagree with the truffle mac and cheese just in general. It's like it's like uh I almost had like both, like I almost had Wiley Dufrein, my brother-in-law, hold me down to have Dave Chang punch me in the face because I was making a pitch. This is in like like 2002 or 2004, maybe 2004.
+
+[48:59] 2004, yeah. I was making a pitch for Wasabi mashed potatoes because I think that they taste good. Yeah. And they were like, they were like, it's absurd, it's culturally bad, it's made by bad people for bad reasons. I was like, the problem is, dudes, it tastes good.
+
+[49:13] You know what I mean? Like, that's the issue I have with it is that it tastes good. I was like, do you like horseradish mashed potatoes? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, okay, but what if it is wasabi instead?
+
+[49:26] And then like, it was like it was like knockdown dragon. It was a fine. Or taking like an actual wasabi root and grating it instead of using that, you know, green. What's up, Richie Rich? Uh anyway, so Hey, but you'll appreciate this about the truffle mac and cheese.
+
+[49:45] I did make a point of saying in the book that a lot of truffle oils are actually synthetically flavored. And I said that on Wendy Williams a few weeks ago. Oh, yeah. And I say to use a truffle butter because you could see the flex of the actual truffles in it. But yeah, it's a little bit more bougie.
+
+[50:02] Um but I appreciate that. I yeah, I mean, but uh it was funny though, because I was on the Wendy when I was on Wendy, she could not have cared less. She was just like Yeah. She liked it. I was gonna say, what was she?
+
+[50:13] I was gonna say, what was she like? It was unique. No, I've taken it was just weird. It was like a complete 180 for me because I used to take talent to her show when I was a publicist. Like she took Mama June there to make Skety, which is literally just butter and ketchup and noodles.
+
+[50:32] And she started the segment with a lie. I mean, I'm not gonna blame her for it because Wendy interviews thousands of people all the time. And she said, When you were here last, you shouted, Oh, I'm Mama June's personal chef. You'll see me back here. And I eh, never said that.
+
+[50:49] I was like, where did that come from? So she started the segment like that. So imagine me literally wanting to crap my pants when that happened. Because I'm like, no. Then I wanted to make it very clear that I was not uh the personal chef of a woman who eats roadkill and literally like ketchup butter noodles.
+
+[51:07] So then that moment had to happen. And then it was like, okay, I guess I'm gonna cook now. Um so it was a very unique experience. But like she's I mean, she was a sweetheart, she really did like the food. Um it just was a very jarring for me live television when that's the first thing that came out of her mouth, and I had to correct her and be like, I was her publicist, not her chef.
+
+[51:25] Right, right, right. Well, similar thing. You're the chef for her for her her, the chef of her information. How about that? I don't I don't think she would have gone for that metaphor, but um yeah, that's a bit of a stretch, but I I feel like you um I corrected her though immediately.
+
+[51:43] All right, I mean now, like in terms of kind of like over the top, first of all, uh before I get into this, case it is people need to not hate on quesadillas because they are delicious. I gotta talk to you about your gluten-free tortilla recipe. It's tapioca and chickpea. So presumably chickpea gives it some protein structure and a tapioca gives it some stretch. But how is it compared to it?
+
+[52:03] Yeah, how is it compared to an actual like flour tortilla? That they're good. Here's the thing. I'm gonna be honest with you. This I'm I'm gonna cancel myself right now.
+
+[52:12] I'm actually one of those types of people who I'm not obsessed with quesadillas. I mean, I I think they serve a purpose. You put a crap ton of cheese on them. It's the best, like I would say drunk food. A lot of this food is drunk food in my book.
+
+[52:26] Um, but it's like something that I would crave three in the morning, something they could dip something into. These hold up, and I it is because of the tapioca flour, and I did want to bring in a chickpea flour to it because I think that was having a moment last year with the protein um with uh obviously the protein amount, but I personally would not be going for a gluten-free tortilla. Um, I would be just, you know, nothing on one chuck full of gluten. But these these hold up. I just I again it was like I wanted to create something that would appeal um to someone who maybe did have dietary restrictions.
+
+[53:00] But why why was chickpea why was chickpea having a moment? It's just one of those things, again, being in food editorial, and it's funny because a lot of it's usually an SEO game. You kind of see what's trending and you want to like write about it, it'd be page one on Google. And chickpea flour was one of those things. I think obviously flour alternatives were having a big moment.
+
+[53:19] Most people were going towards almond, coconut, uh, but not realizing that there was a chickpea flour that was on the market. And chickpea flour is actually quite common. Uh, but uh when you can use it for something as simple as a quesadilla and something that is so mainstream, uh, you know, a lot of light bulbs went off for a general or typical consumer. So yeah, long ago I was taught that chickpea flour is the secret to a crispy dosa. A little bit.
+
+[53:43] A little bit. Uh yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So speaking of over-the-top recipes, what about these bacon?
+
+[53:50] I forget the title you gave them, but these bacon meat and cheese tubes. Are you talking about my mini meatloaves? Yes. Yeah, I was like, or are you talking about the everything pigs and a fluffy down comforter? No, we can talk about that.
+
+[54:08] We could talk about that because I I appreciate making everything bagel mix, which everyone should have around. But I I recently had a bad moment with everything bagel mix because elaborate, yeah. Well, well, um, the garlic and the and the and the onion flakes, they burn like a mother. Like you gotta keep your oven temperatures low. So I was making bagels, and like I got a lot of scorching on that.
+
+[54:29] I think the reason they don't sell everything bagel mix at the store is because it it stratifies so quickly. All the poppy seeds go in one direction and the garlic goes and the onions go in the other. But uh your your recipe is cooked at 400, so I don't think you're gonna get scorching on the everything bagel, and I think it was only on the top of my memory serves. So I don't think you're gonna get scorching problems, but I had real scorching problems on on on mine. Yeah, no, I was not talking about that.
+
+[54:49] I'm talking about your mini meatloafs, which by the way, if you if you did believe in health, this is a heart attack. This makes Jimmy Dean pancake on a stick look like look like uh spa food. It's like uh yeah, you want to describe these sucker? Yeah, so I grew up in a meatloaf family. Actually, I grew up, you know, meatloaf was my mom made a very healthy version of meatloaf.
+
+[55:10] She's actually a bodybuilder because she competes competitively. Competes competitively. Wow, I need I need more coffee. Um yeah, so she was all about high protein, lots of vegetables, but as a result, she wasn't putting in a lot of the good stuff, you know. Like she wasn't putting in a lot of cheese, she really didn't bind it with the bread.
+
+[55:27] Um, so I kind of wanted to flip the script a little bit and do mini meatloaves wrapped in bacon and have it be a meatloaf that I enjoy. Um so yeah, you know, I added a little bit of sugar. Um, you know, it's it's it's pretty traditional, other than I don't really use ketchup, and I know that's polarizing for people. Um, because I know some people are I think like they're loyal to their ketchup and their meatloaf. I don't know.
+
+[55:57] What are your thoughts on that? Ketchup, nice! It's America's favorite ketchup. I know. Oh, but oh by the way, I'm assuming everyone here watches supermarket sweeps.
+
+[56:07] They did a ketchup thing and and uh supermarket sweep and hunts paid for it. I was like, yo, Hunts, really? Come on. You know what I'm saying? It's so funny because I actually did a series at Chahong called Sauced, and our first episode, it was me just taking five of the highest ranked condiments on Amazon in a category, and um Hunts was a part of it.
+
+[56:28] I did a catch-up episode. But Hunts did not get last place. No, Hunts is fine, but Heinz. Oh yeah. Heinz got Heinz is the one.
+
+[56:39] Heinz has the one second. Heinz got second. There was one called Camden's, and it was amazing. It was it had a little bit of jalapeno. Camden, New Jersey?
+
+[56:49] I think it was based out of Seattle this place. Oh Jesus. Alright, so uh so in terms of terms of bringing things back. What's up, cheese ball? You're like cheese balls are great, and guess what cheese balls are?
+
+[57:01] Cheese balls are great. People, if you've never lived in the 70s before, please think about the cheese ball. Do you want to talk about cheese balls, Joey? I love a cheese ball moment. Um I love also that they're completely customizable.
+
+[57:16] So I think, like, you know, based on the season, you can kind of throw in what you want. I actually just made one. Um, what the hell did I put in it? I think I like topped it with figs and I threw in like a little bit of blue cheese. Um I don't know.
+
+[57:30] I did that too. Wait, really? And it was with that. We soulmates. Um, but yeah, the one in the book is, you know, I think the classic is to cover it obviously with pecans and the pimento cheese, and it's very southern.
+
+[57:50] And I've lived in Georgia for seven years as a kid. I moved in fourth grade. So a cheese ball was always on the table with a southern spread, along with um you know, homophobia and racism. Oh good. Perfect.
+
+[58:08] You know, that's southern upbringing. I'm kidding, that's stereotyping, but it definitely did exist. They don't know what drugged at your table. And I'm not saying it was my family's table. I went to a lot of parties, so my parents are very parents are very accepting of me, so in your cake after.
+
+[58:31] Speaking of southern food, I have a here's another question I have for you because this is what I like so you try to draw that you you you kind of walk this like interesting line where you're doing like what you call like you know basic bitch recipes, but then you're not necessarily going what I would consider like the go-to on the ingredient, you're going a little deeper. For instance, in your case, in your caso, you give what I think is a great tip, which is to go to the deli counter and ask for them to ha you know, hack off a piece of that government cheese and hand you the block. So you can grade it, which right, that's the way to do it. Like everyone knows who knows that that's the way you do it, but then you don't go rotel. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[59:07] It's like no, because I'm not hashtag sponsored, so if I would have gotten money, I would have called no. Um I would have changed my mind. Yeah, you know. No, you know, you can't just give it away for free. I think kind of the yeah, exactly, right?
+
+[59:23] I think the mentality I had was just I people don't understand that there's so many ways to approach a grocery store that they don't realize. Like, even just during Thanksgiving, my mom um wanted to make short ribs, and um, there was a very specific type of cut that it called for. I'm like blanking on the name. But she didn't know that she could just go to the butcher at Publix and be like, can I have it cut this way? So I wanted to just show that you can kind of befriend your everyone at your local grocer and ask for things that are very specific, and they will more likely than not cater to what you want and need.
+
+[1:00:04] And nine times out of ten, the quality of the ingredients, instead of getting that generic mainstream crap that's chock full with artificial ingredients, like it's just everything's just gonna be better. So I just yeah, my goal was to like how to take something very basic, something very mainstream, but just elevate it the slightest bit. And even if you don't do that and you want to do the rotel, you know, situation, God bless, that's fine too. You know, work work with what you have, but kind of just wanted to show people that there is a a life to the grocery store beyond just walking around dreary-eyed with a shopping cart and and literally hating yourself. That makes sense.
+
+[1:00:44] Yeah, here's another question. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Okay, do you actually like stevia or do you just know people are gonna use it and you thought the lemonade would hide hide it? I actually do use stevia. I think it's the best sugar substitute.
+
+[1:00:55] I know a lot of people hate that. Oh my god. I know this is okay. This is where my bodybuilder mom, you know, influenced me because she put Stevie on everything. Uh, does it replace sugar?
+
+[1:01:06] Absolutely not. Are you kidding me? But um, I I don't know. I still think Stevia and monk fruit are neck and neck with the best sugar substitute. If I do anything with like aspartame, sucralose, I again will need a hashtag sponsored by DePends.
+
+[1:01:20] So we're gonna have to agree to disagree, but uh, I will give I will give you that because of your ziploc with the with the project, which is a which is a good move. Okay, with the Zlock. So I'll I'll give you, I'll give you that. Uh I have it in my freezer right now, actually. Smart.
+
+[1:01:37] That's smart. You know what? It's always the right weather for rose. People need to stop only drinking rose and pink stuff in the summertime. I think.
+
+[1:01:44] I agree. And people don't realize just how easy Froze is. They think they need like a like almost like a Mr.'s like uh what are those machines? What were the icy machines? The slight like one of those slushy machines, yeah.
+
+[1:01:56] Yeah, and I'm like, no, you literally just need a blender, you know, throw in some strawberries, lemon juice, strawberries will help bulk it up a bit too if because it does melt quickly. Um and ice, like it's it's not difficult, and it's amazingly refreshing year-round. All right, so three three or four quick things because then Matt's gonna kick us off. One, okay. Did you invent the term micro influencer?
+
+[1:02:18] No, no, no, no. That's been around. We we we use that to um talk about people who think they're more important than they actually are. That is that is my favorite new con new to me concept is the micro influencer. But there is a uh value to being a micro influencer because a lot of these people who have, let's say, under 25,000 followers, they have a very dedicated and loyal following who will literally buy whatever they are told to buy.
+
+[1:02:47] So engagement engagement, exactly. So now more brands, and this is the media geek, you know, coming out on me. More brands are turning towards micro influencers to do hashtag sponsor posts because they know they're gonna get a greater return. Whereas these bigger, you know, influencers, they kind of just post something, it goes to die, you know, weeks later, and um they don't really get so much of a return on their, you know, people aren't really buying the product, it's just a glamour shot. So no, no.
+
+[1:03:17] All right, also quick you have a bone to pick with people who blame their uh their genes on their cilantro patriot. Yes, but I get it. I mean, if there's science behind it, we're we're all pro-science here, right? I don't know. Well, the only thing is like you think people in Mexico don't have that gene and they all eat uh all the food has cilantro, like some people they can taste the soapiness, yeah, and yet they still like it.
+
+[1:03:42] True. I just yeah, I mean, that was that's what's interesting. Cause I grew up in a cilantro household and we put that on everything. And I never tasted the soapiness. So when I actually worked for food and wine and wrote for them when I was doing a lot of news stories, that's when that big study came out saying that, oh, it's tied to a genetic thing.
+
+[1:03:59] Um, so I forgave them a little bit, but I don't know. Sometimes like super picky eaters just piss me off in general because I'm like, at least just try it, you know, or try it in a different way. And um, that was yeah, that's the only reason why I included it. Second to last thing. Uh, are you familiar, uh, Joey with the with dunk meals?
+
+[1:04:23] Yeah, of course. Okay, so your answer to the dump meal is the sheet pan dinner discuss. Yeah, so sheet pan dinner. I like I said, I actually, even though I wrote a cookbook, I still prefer eating over cooking any day. Like the process is like very therapeutic for me, but there are just those times where I come home after a long day and I am tired, I don't even want to look at a stove.
+
+[1:04:44] And Sheepan Dinner is such an easy workaround where you just throw a protein, a starch, and a vegetable on one pan. They all have the same sauce. They cook for the same temperature, uh cook at the same temperature for the same time, and you're done. 30 minutes tops, it's amazing. If you're like a busy mom or dad and you've got to come home cook for a family, they're like the best choice.
+
+[1:05:03] Like a dub cake or dump meal, yeah. And by the way, uh I'm I don't have time to go into it, but like one of the uh later, someone someday asked me about planchist and Jose Andres and constant temperatures and griddles. Uh now listen, before I go out, I can't let this go out without discussing pumpkin spice, because I you know, it's like the first thing you bring up in the in the book, right? Uh and so uh the quote is and by the way, in this, you admit to Uggs, at least a former Ug, even though currently in your introduction, you are Ugless. I'm Ugless.
+
+[1:05:41] Uh Uglist. Uh on a scale of one to I want to punch you in the face. I'm practically a broken jaw when it comes to how annoying I am about the arrival of fall. Uh now wait a minute. Here's a question I have for you.
+
+[1:05:55] Over the past now, you probably wrote this book what, a year ago, year and a half ago? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So this last season, since this book was in press, there was this anti-fall backlash where it was kind of labeled as a Karen thing. And by the way, you were relatively early on the Karen train because Karen's are mentioned at least once or twice in this book.
+
+[1:06:14] Man, yeah, you have a finger finger on the pulse. But like, what do you think? Do you feel that there is an anti fall backlash, or is it still what's going on? I think, I don't know. This year, I think the sentiment is just do what makes you happy.
+
+[1:06:29] Um, obviously, the fall fall brings up the association with the basic bitch lifestyle, and then the basic bitch lifestyle brings in the negative aspects, like the Karen's of the world who are getting way too much screen time with society. And I kind of now approach fall like I always have been, even though it's turned into a stereotype with wearing the Barbara scarf and the Uggs and going to Central Park and taking pictures with your pumpkin spice latte under a tree that's really pretty. Live your life. If it feels good, if it tastes good, treat yourself because this has been a rough time for everyone. So I don't understand the backlash.
+
+[1:07:06] I think everyone just needs to kind of do just do what makes them happy and shut up. It doesn't affect you. I wish I could I I wish I could end on that because that's nice, but I have to ask you some questions about the recipe in general. Okay. Yours actually have pumpkin in them, which is unusual, right?
+
+[1:07:20] They usually have pumpkin, didn't they? No, it's like usually a syrup. If you go to Starbucks, it's the you know the pre-pump syrups. Yeah, I mean, I I make full disclosure. My, you know, in the morning, Jen, my wife has lattes, and in the winter time, fall winter, I make her a pumpkin spice mix so that she can have, you know, that in her inner stuff, but it's just a syrup.
+
+[1:07:40] I never considered uh this whole actual pumpkin, and what does that do to it? But you then you need the cream, right? Otherwise, the structure won't be there. Like, do you need it to be thicker then? Yeah, so what I actually do is I cook down the pumpkin, and there's also controversy around, you know, canned pumpkin not being actually pumpkin.
+
+[1:07:55] But if you want to get another that it's actually like a pumpkin so expensive that I can't afford real pumpkin, what the hell? I exactly. I mean, there's controversy that it's actually like squash or like a type of squash and not actual pumpkin. I know. Hey, but hey, d hey, hey people, do you know what pumpkins are?
+
+[1:08:12] They're squashes. Uh yeah, no, there's that's a whole deep dive that you could do an entire episode on. But um, yeah, no, you just cook it down on the stove. What I actually do is I take it off of the stove and I put it in a blender, um, and I mix it then, you know, with the sugar, um, and then is when I I I also put in the milk to kind of make it a little bit frothy. Um, but the whipped cream is actually just the topper.
+
+[1:08:38] Um, just to make it pretty and um but really it's it's it's about taking it from the stove, putting in the milk, frothing it up, and then obviously you have to have your homemade pumpkin spice blend, which is completely customizable if you think like cloves are too strong, taste. Well, I noticed no nutmeg. I noticed no nutmeg, Joey. No, I have nutmeg. You are lying to me.
+
+[1:08:59] Nutmeg is in the recipe. Let me see. Let me see. Swept to page one. Yeah.
+
+[1:09:07] While I'm looking, while I'm looking, let me see here. Okay, three. Three, well, one one one, page. 11, okay. Three tablespoons ground cinnamon, two teaspoons ground ginger.
+
+[1:09:21] All right. So that's uh, by the way, so what do you think about people that use too much ginger and turn it into a gingerbread spice uh latte? I know they can do whatever they want, but what do you think about it? Yeah, you can do whatever you want. I am personally there it is, nutmeg.
+
+[1:09:32] I go gloss over, it went to Oswald's. That's actually a lot of nutmeg. That's a lot of nutmeg. I love a nutmeg moment, but I actually really love ginger. Um, so if someone ODs on the ginger, I'm into it.
+
+[1:09:44] I I I like a little ginger moment. How did I miss that? Because I literally wrote in my notes, like, where's the nutmeg? Unless I just skipped right over it to the but what are your thoughts on nutmeg versus mace? Ooh, uh, good question.
+
+[1:09:57] I don't cook with or bake with mace um uh often. Um I I just still prefer a fresh nutmeg. I I'm that I'm that bitch who is you know grating it over stuff, and I actually put it in my macaroni and cheese too, because I believe that it's that I like the nuttiness in uh in a in a cream sauce. But um that's very classic, right, John? A little nutmeg in your in your cream sauces.
+
+[1:10:19] Yep. It is the French do it. And if the French say that it tastes better that way, then I'll I listen. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:10:28] Oh, and by the way, I mean, you say that you can make it with two percenter skin, but you really hate those people, right? That's in your literally can't even 100%. Like, I I if I could do heavy cream, just really go crazy. So uh we gotta go. All right, Teddy.
+
+[1:10:44] Thanks, thanks for coming on. And on the way out, just listen, Nastasia's judging you. I know you're a fan of Christmas songs, so you say what's your favorite my favorite Christmas song? Yeah. Of all time.
+
+[1:10:55] Oh my gosh. It's gotta just be a Mariah Carey All I want for Christmas is you because I'm CASIC! Cooking action. Thanks for coming on, cooking it. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:11:12] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:11:27] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:11:50] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Ashley Madison was built for discretion. It's not for everyone. It's for people who don't want a spotlight, who don't need validation, who don't want their curiosity turned into content.
+
+[1:12:10] A place designed for privacy and choice, where connections happen quietly and always on your terms. Because some things are better when no one else is watching. Where desire meets discretion, Ashley Madison. Download the app now or visit Ashley Madison.com/slash iHeartMedia.
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+[0:00] This episode brought to you by Appeal. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long. Learn more at Appeal.com. Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, although I think this is the this is the last one, maybe before the new year.
+
+[0:25] I don't know, we'll see. This is in fact the Christmas episode. I'm your host, Dave. I'm here in the lower east side of Manhattan. We got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez at her undisclosed uh Southern California uh location.
+
+[0:38] How are you doing? Good. Yeah. We have uh John, uh Intrepid Customer Service Representative Backup in Lyme. Is it old Lime or Lyme?
+
+[0:49] Is there really a difference? Or is there only really one lime? I think there is a difference, but we are in Lime proper. Lime proper, not old Lime. No.
+
+[0:57] You think old Lime is one of those kind of like post editions where old Lime is actually newer, but they call it old Lime, and they add like an extra D and an E, like oldie Limey. I I I don't know. I hadn't thought about it, but you could be right. Yeah, in Mystic Connecticut, the real mystic is mystic, and then they have something called oldy mystic y villagey with like all kinds of like stupid shoppies. Do you guys hate by the way okay?
+
+[1:21] Got Matt in Rhode Island. How you doing? Good. I can't wait to hear the end of that question. Yeah.
+
+[1:26] And and I want to bring him in now just because anytime I get to hear his voice is a pleasure. Uh Christmas tradition. We have on uh the show today, friend of the show. Phil Bravo! How are you doing, Phil?
+
+[1:42] Good mor. Morning, Dave. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
+
+[1:47] And uh, as you know, um Phil Bravo is the closest living human being to Thurl Ravencroft, aka uh Tony the Tiger. He was uh also one of the voices in uh Spike Jones's novelty band back in the 40s and 50s, and was most importantly for the purposes of today's show, not the narrator, who is Boris Karloff, also a great voice, uh, but the singer of the original Grinch. Yeah, yeah. Uh so I have to go through that every year in case people haven't listened before, but that's that's and uh Nastasia. How long have you been pestering Phil about doing the the Grinch?
+
+[2:32] Doing the Grinch? Yeah. Um, I don't know. I think you did it the first time like ten years ago, Phil, at the gaff karaoke, right? Or something?
+
+[2:41] It was at the gaff, 40 48th and 9th Christmas karaoke. Non-denominational holiday karaoke. Now, the that bar, which you guys used to like to go to, the gaff is named after the hook that you stick through a fish's face, right? Don't know. I thought it was like when you make a mistake.
+
+[3:00] Right? Oh, like a gaff. I think that that's I think that's two Fs and an E. Oh, really? Uh huh.
+
+[3:07] I think uh I mean it I think we just we just assumed based on our behavior. Well, also that that bar is near what used to be a film neighborhood. That's why the film center building and everything's over there. Maybe it was maybe that's where gaffers went. True.
+
+[3:23] Yeah, that would be weird if gaffers had their own bars. What are gaffers? What are gaffers doing that? Everyone gets their own bar. Everyone gets their own bar.
+
+[3:30] Why can't gaffers have they tape things to things? Gaff tape. They tape what to what, Dave? They they tape stuff to stuff. You know what I mean?
+
+[3:38] It's like stuff to make it. Give me an example. It's like, hey, moron, that light's gonna fall and kill the talent. Get the gaffer. Yeah.
+
+[3:44] You know, like that. So if gaffers gap, then what does the best boy do? I mean, first of all, are they still called the best boy? Or do they have a like a gender neutral best boy? I think that is just like um that's like the highest position you can have without having a producer credit, right?
+
+[4:07] Like best boy. Like I mean, I don't know. I'm not in the business. Someone needs to tell me, but it's like I thought, like, you know, if you if the coffee that you get is really, really good, you get like some like third tier producer credit. So, like, just below that is like is like best whatever, right?
+
+[4:24] I mean, Anastasia you hang out with that. I thought it was most favored dog on set. It's like you're the best boy. Can you imagine if they just had a bunch of dogs chilling and then the dog starts barking and gnawing on stuff? Yeah, and then at the end of the production, they nominate one to have been best boy.
+
+[4:40] It makes sense. Uh it does. What if they what if instead of a dog it was a rabbit and the rabbit continuously chewed through all of the cables, so they have to keep going through rabbits because they would electrocute themselves on the regular? That seems like that would hold up production quite a bit. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:57] Well, you know, it's it's all about tradition. If the tradition is having a rabbit chewing through your cables, why do rabbits chew through electrical cables? Or were you guys not aware that this was a thing? I was just waiting for the punchline. No, this is a real thing.
+
+[5:11] It's not a setup. This is real, this is real. This is real. Oh, speaking of speaking of uh though of punchline y things, Nastasia. I have found a fact that I did not know that I think you might actually enjoy not being sarcastic.
+
+[5:25] Okay. Are you aware that the and so everyone who knows knows that Nastasio Lopez is works with cooks, but is actually a fan of comedians, right? So not a fan of cooks, but a fan of comedians, but works in the cooking field, right? Okay. Yeah.
+
+[5:42] That's fair, correct? Cooks and comedians, same patron saint. Ooh What does that mean? What do you mean? Aren't you aren't you at least part Catholic?
+
+[5:55] Patron saint. You know what a patron saint is. Yeah, it's real. Yeah. Saint Lawrence, get this.
+
+[6:02] Here's why. Saint Lawrence is the patron saint of both cooks and comedians because of one wise crack he made while being martyred. So he's being well, so the legend goes. Who knows how it actually went down, right? So there's these seven deacons, uh, and they you know, they he was the last one to get martyred.
+
+[6:20] And the uh, you know, the whoever it was that was, you know, persecuting him, some Roman weasel, uh, was persecuting him, and said, You gotta bring us all of the riches of the church, all of it. Bring it all, because we're gonna confiscate all of this crap. And so I'm on the I'm on the radio show books. And so then what happens is is he he is instead he gives all the stuff away to the poor, brings the poor folks to the thing. He's like, here's the riches of the church, it's the poor people.
+
+[6:48] Why? That's not why he's the thing, though. Here's what happens the the Romans are so mad that they order him to be cooked over a fire, right? And here's where it comes. So they they spread out a big, you know, gridiron, uh, I you know, a big you know, grate, and they they fire up the coals or whatever they had back in the day, and they throw them on the on the on the coals, and before he dies, he goes, I'm done on this side, turn me over, and that was it.
+
+[7:13] Patron saint of comedians and cooks. That's good. Also, uh if it's if it's Lawrence, I like it seems appropriate that it's patron saint Larry. Yeah, Larry. Larry for comedians.
+
+[7:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Larry for yeah, yeah. But can you imagine like being like, I'm gonna get this one last zinger in? I'm done on this side. Turn me over.
+
+[7:33] Boom boom boom. If only they had this stuff, you know? The drums. If only they had drum kits back in the day. Yeah.
+
+[7:39] Anyways. I thought you would enjoy that. Did you enjoy that? That's good. And I picture Larry David as that saint.
+
+[7:44] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh, we could totally do that. We gotta make you a beside.
+
+[7:52] I'm sure they have a Larry David patron saint somewhere. Well, we have a meat glue question later if we get to it, so we could talk about getting a Larry David like uh mask, stuffing it with meat, and making an actual meat Larry like Saint Larry David that we could grill on one side and then turn over. What do you think? I don't know about that. Do you remember how disturbed people were when uh we were making meat uh Easter bunnies and deep frying them, Nastasia?
+
+[8:19] I don't think I was with you then. Really? Yeah. We took we took the Easter bunny chocolate molds that they had at the FCI, and then we uh like meat glued because we want it to be nice and firm. We meat glue and packed meat into the uh things, and then low temptum, and then we had these meat bunnies, and then we would deep fry the meat bunnies, and for some reason people found it disturbing.
+
+[8:41] I don't think that's that bad. Me neither. This doesn't make any sense. If you were down to cook some rabbit anyway, what difference does it make it? Oh, here's another rabbit meat.
+
+[8:51] Yeah. Here's another thing, guys. Since I since we don't have a uh uh a you know, a bar anymore, another thing we were gonna do last year, we didn't get it in time, but this year, you know, we we didn't do it is we bought some silicone Santa Claus molds, right? And then we packed, we we took our uh our chicken liver mousse, right, and packed them into the Santa mo molds, chilled them, and then had Santa like Santa chicken liver things. They were pretty good.
+
+[9:19] The problem is is that they get like if you have to chill them too much, they get a nasty kind of bloom when they come out. If you let them sit around too long, obviously they oxidize because it's chicken liver moose. But the molded Santa uh moose, I thought was a nice was a nice thing, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
+
+[9:36] Yeah. Um wait, can I jump can I jump the line with a cooking question? Why not? Okay. I was cooking skate for the first time a few weeks ago.
+
+[9:46] Uh Wait, whoa, whoa. You've never cooked skate before. I had never cooked skate before. Okay, how did you how have you lived this long as a pescatarian? And just curious, how have you lived this long as a pescatarian from Rhode Island and not cook skate?
+
+[10:00] Well, first of all, I spent all I spent many a year as a vegan, so that's part of it. All right. Yeah. Okay, okay. Uh anyway, okay, so and my wife and I, Kate, we're sitting down at a meal, and uh all of a sudden she's like, Are your lips tingling?
+
+[10:16] I'm like, Yes, they are. And then we look this up, and apparently skate sometimes uh secretes like urea. Is any of this ringing a bell? Should one be wording all of these? Is it a flaw?
+
+[10:28] Like what how do we feel about it? No, no, so listen, skate is a cartilaginous fish in the way that sharks are, right? So all of those uh cartilaginous fishes use you know certain kinds of you know, th those kinds of compounds for buoyancy, some more than others, buoyancy changes, and it's just it's just they do that, whereas the the bony fishes typically do not, right? Uh also some squid are very high in kind of unpleasant, you know, uh things. That's why like certain squid have to be treated differently than other squid, right?
+
+[11:01] That said, the average um skate that you buy in a market does not have uh you know high amounts of the of those kind of compounds. Whereas some sharks, if you buy them, they do. You ever, John, you ever buy a shark and had it be real, like you know, real stinky, real anyway. Uh the skates that you buy in a market probably uh don't, and that's also probably not causing your allergic uh tingly reaction. There is a relatively well-known uh allergy some people have to skate.
+
+[11:31] Uh in fact, uh, you know, a famous chef, my brother-in-law, I won't call him out, but his name rhymes with by lean mufrain. He is allergic to uh skate, and so as a consequence, because he didn't want to be allergic to everything, he would fabricate it as much as possible to try to like beat the allergy out of himself. Um so it's it's real, but you know, I wouldn't be concerned, and I don't think it's because of residual urea. Could be wrong, but I don't think I am. But here's the thing.
+
+[12:00] What's awesome about skate? Did you notice the best thing about skate, Matt? Uh no. What is it? It is that it is one of the very few fishes, and John, fill fill, you know, you know what I'm gonna say.
+
+[12:10] What is amazing about skate? I lost John. Where is he? I'm here. I don't I don't know about the meat on both sides of the bones.
+
+[12:22] No, it's that you can beat the ever-loving crap out of it. You can hammer it, and it still tastes good. Yeah, that's true. It's the most forgiving of all fishes. Of all fishes created in on this earth, skate is the most forgiving.
+
+[12:36] You can just do anything to it. I definitely I read something. So after we, you know, we started to go down this rabbit hole of like, well, why is this tingling sensation happening? And I definitely read things like, oh, you the more you cook skate, the more like tender it gets and the better and whatever. I was like, what?
+
+[12:53] And that's a that's a little over. That's a little bit much. I try so then I throw a piece on and was like, you know, let's okay, let's test this. And it was not better having cooked for longer. It was no, no, no.
+
+[13:03] However, it is it is the most forgiving, I think, uh, fish. The weirdest fish, uh cartilaginous fish uh I've ever cooked, is the fresh version. I believe the technical the genus is Harpadon, and it's the um it's the fish that is used to make the uh dried specialty Bombay duck. And it is compl it when you cook it, the entire interior of the fish completely liquefies like a gelatin. It's we the weirdest fish I've ever cooked.
+
+[13:33] So I used to deep fry them whole and eat them. I stopped because uh if you let them, they're great when they're hot, but if you let them cool off, they are vile. They are disgusting. And as everybody knows, you can't trust your family to eat when you tell them to. They just don't do it.
+
+[13:51] So I couldn't have them just sitting around turning vile. But those things were great. Yeah. Um so I'm sorry I couldn't answer your question other than uh if you're both tingling and it pro i i actually, you know what? Now that I'm rethinking, if both of you were tingling, it's maybe something wrong with that particular or something in that particular batch of skate, because what are the odds that both of you have the same reaction low, right?
+
+[14:14] Yes. Have any of you other guys heard of uh this reaction with skate? No. No. Maybe it's some sort of like, you know, Rhode Island is currently like, you know, a weird poisonous land.
+
+[14:28] Maybe maybe it's Rhode Island. Phil, you only eat tilapia, right? That's what I was gonna say. Uh what I was mainly gonna say is I just know the reaction to tilapia, which is you cook tilapia and then Nastasia complains for about 37 hours. Uh Phil, Phil, Phil, Phil.
+
+[14:46] Phil. Rightly so. Listen, it's not like it's not like Nastasia's distaste for tilapia is not known to you. And it's not like it's unreasonable. It is a Philpfish.
+
+[15:00] It it is it is the it is the Kenny G of fish. Now, Dave, Dave, it's Christmas Eve. You gotta get through seven fishes. I got it. One's gotta be tilapia.
+
+[15:12] I'm not the fish don't grow on trees here, man. Uh well, apparently they do in North Carolina. Indisputably true. Fish do not grow on. Nastasia, am I allowed to am I allowed to say this or no?
+
+[15:25] No. No. I'm not allowed to say this? All right. Uh okay, I will not.
+
+[15:30] Uh now listen. First of all, uh you could do you could do like uh a salt cod, a great appetizer, right? You could do uh my you know you get some salt cod. I think the best thing to do with with that is to, you know, like do like a brand style, or like uh, you know, like whi whip it up with uh whip it up just with with oil and makes a fantastic like cod dip. That's one fish right there, no tilapia, right?
+
+[15:55] Like what else what are you sh you're in California, don't they have fish over there? He's in Portland. He decided to spread COVID up there because there wasn't enough cases. Just went coughing up the western seaboard. So how long is your beard now?
+
+[16:08] Have you gone full lumberjack? Oh, yeah, no, it's more Z Z Z top at this point. Oh, nice, nice, nice. You're not allowed to go Z Z top unless you buy the guitar strap that allows you to flip your guitar uh 360 degrees in the middle while you're while you're playing legs. I didn't realize that was a good there was a guitar strap that didn't allow for that.
+
+[16:28] That's let me ask oh, oh I was about to lose it on you, and like you're like, I didn't know you why go back after that. What a convention. This is Phil, what a save. Once you've had tilapia, why go back? Anyway, I would basically say any other fish would be a good call.
+
+[16:46] Like I I would prefer if someone served me eight pounds of escalar and I spent the rest of the night on the toilet pooping out the wax, then um Wow. Booker, I'm on the radio here. No, no, no. Booker Booker's colour color commentary is welcome. Yeah.
+
+[17:02] I just escalar is a delicious fish, right? But it contains waxes that are, shall we say, indigestible, like the olestra of fish. And so, you know, it can have some results on the way out, is all I'm saying. The the main thing is uh when you're trying to, you know, create a a real holiday event, you run you want the full out Franca Stanza coming out of Nastasia's mouth. So you make tilapia, you don't necessarily take the bones out of the salmon.
+
+[17:28] You like, you know. This is what I don't like about D Vane the shrimp, just let it go. This is what this is this is what I don't like about the greater Nastasia universe, like Marvel and DC universe. Is this is this like friends? Like, like I'm okay with messing with each other, but you guys mess with each other in ways that are like they just make your life worse.
+
+[17:49] Everybody's life is worse. Like the classic like Nastasia universe thing is is like, ooh, I'm gonna make something to give you gastrointestinal distress. It's also gonna give me gastrointestinal distress, but it's worth it because I get to see you suffer. You gotta commit to the job. But that's what I'm saying.
+
+[18:05] Like, like, I mean, I don't know. It's like it's like this culture of cutting off your nose despite your face. I just don't get it. That's what our our friendship is all based on, I think. Right, Phil?
+
+[18:16] Yes, mutual spite. Yeah. Did you mean in some sort of like misanthropes camp? The health kitchen. That's pretty much it.
+
+[18:24] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it's true. We're just for they should have uh done you guys for that instead of uh Jessica Jones and freaking the Flash or Dash or whatever his name is uh Daredevil, that's it. You know. Um listen, before we get into some should I rip some questions and then we go let or should we do the the Phil and the and the charity call out, the end of the year charity call out first.
+
+[18:48] I told Phil he could get off at 15 at 9 15, so I know it's Nastasia of your schedule, Phil. I don't know. Nastasia, remember this radio show takes place in the Eastern time zone. Uh yes. This Nastasia's also that kind of person who's like, if she's in another time zone, she's what I heard everything's.
+
+[19:08] Exactly. Yeah. Uh Dave, I will do it. I have a food question, Dave. Oh.
+
+[19:14] Okay. Right. I have I have one. This is uh so I was Scotch, uh Scotch eggs. So I want to delicious.
+
+[19:20] I want to make scotch eggs, but this is a good thing. Don't use tilapia, Phil. Don't use tilapia eggs. That's the thing. I was gonna wrap them in tilapia and sausage stuffing.
+
+[19:33] Um so if you sue vie the eggs and get like if you like do it uh like a ramen egg scotch egg instead of like the really hard boiled. Yep. Every time I do this, I like uh, you know, I'm trying to peel the egg and it's like I destroy I destroy like seventy-three eggs on the way to one Scotch egg. So what's my yeah, well then you haven't actually done it with a circulator. You've tried to imitate a circulator.
+
+[20:00] Any look, the the the super crack out method that is used with a immersion circulator, right? The problem with those is that they're so soft that they're hard to stuff, right? So you cook those at 62, right? Or if you want a little thicker, 62 and a half, you um you let you can let them cool, whatever, you crack them out, then you take them through boiling water to firm up the white on the outside. The advantage of that technique versus traditional, honestly, is that there's less white.
+
+[20:33] And everybody knows that in a scotch egg, it's really like you got your sausage and then some sort of thing that's holding the yolk together on the inside, right? So like I think that the reducing the white ratio is a huge win of doing an actual low temperature egg for a scotch egg. But um what you're doing you can't if you're going to do what you want to do and you wanna peel it traditionally, I would actually say put them into boiling water, simmering, right? Because you don't want 'em to rattle around and get busted. I would put them into very hot water because the the if you start from cold water, the colder the water you start with with an egg, the harder it is to peel.
+
+[21:11] There's been study after study of this that it's hard to peel eggs that were started from cold. So you want to go in uh super hot, right? And then um you want to take them out before the yolk sets, so you have to time it relatively accurately. Put them in ice water to cool them down quickly so that you don't continue to cook through. Uh then you should have an egg whose white is hard enough to peel accurately.
+
+[21:34] All right. I'll give this a try this afternoon. I want to say one thing. The worst friend thing that we did during the holidays is when Phil bravo showed up late to my holiday party in my apartment, because he used to live below me and Grace. And he was supposed to have eggnog as uh as a starter drink for everyone.
+
+[21:58] But he just he came an hour late and he had hadn't even made the eggnog, hadn't even cracked the eggs. So what happened, Phil? Um, all right. So the way that this went down, Dave, is that I spent approximately two hours cracking uh eggs and like getting things prepped. Nastasia came.
+
+[22:16] This is like this is this story is flipped around. She came downstairs into our apartment. Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. It took you two hours to crack eggs. Nah, you know, it's a figurative two hours.
+
+[22:26] It was uh it was a good amount of time. I cracked like 47 eggs or something, whatever 18 times three is, Dave. You're the scientist. All right, so uh I crack all these eggs. They're sitting in the house.
+
+[22:36] 18 times three is 47. What do you want? Crack? Exactly. Uh this is why I'm a terrible cook.
+
+[22:41] Uh but I I leave the eggs in the sink because it's like, you know, it's a hell's kitchen, tiny sink. Everything is tiny. Nastasia comes barreling into the apartment, goes like take angry, turns on the turns on the the water into the eggs, is like this is all dirty. Uh and then it took another two hours to make said eggnog. This isn't a great story, Nastasia.
+
+[23:05] The setup here is uh I was doing what I was supposed to do. Listen, this Phil Phil ruining everything. I'm not taking any sides here, but I'll tell you what, like all of us use the sink for messy work, so we have stuff that we're gonna keep in the sink. And when people whenever anyone approaches me, and Phil, you should learn this. Whenever anyone gets near you when you're working in the sink, you gotta do this.
+
+[23:28] Oh yeah, but the I didn't know Nastasia long enough yet. So now when Nastasia comes near me, anyone in any circumstance. Yeah, but when Nastasia comes back to the case, any circumstance. It's just Phil, anyone! Jesus comes back from the dead, floats through your window, goes near the sink.
+
+[23:46] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Don't you listen, Jesus? Anyone. Anyone. The Pope, like, whatever, Elton John, like whoever comes in, like, you tell them not to touch the sink because it is entirely reasonable for someone to turn on the sink.
+
+[24:03] Because you know why? It's a sink, but also it's entirely reasonable for you to be working in the sink, and so you have to make that clear. Nastasia, do you agree with me or disagree with me? Yeah, but I was just angry. Yeah, she this was.
+
+[24:16] This was my apartment, and she wasn't doing anything in the sink. I think she literally just like spite. It's like it's an instinct. Yeah, the spite just came up, like, you know, it welded up through her. Merry Christmas.
+
+[24:31] Yeah. Uh so by the way, by the way, Nastasia, uh, have you watched Rudolph this year? No, I haven't. You have because you have kids, but I have not. You gotta get on that Rudolph.
+
+[24:44] Gotta do that. You're gonna say something else. Uh what? Yeah, I know. I will.
+
+[24:53] We've watched uh we've watched all the ranking all the rankin' bass uh stuff. Nice. Um but like my kids are old enough to not really need it anymore. It's just a family thing at this point. Cute.
+
+[25:04] Yeah. Are you a fan of Are you a fan of Elf? Or is that like, you know, is that you like the homage? Do you not? Well they're fair enough.
+
+[25:13] All right. I just might it's my favorite thing of the holiday season is by buddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Norwal.
+
+[25:21] Yeah. My favorite, uh like my favorite in elf is uh I know him. You know what I mean? When when the when these like Santa's coming here tomorrow, he's like he freaks out. I didn't realize how funny because I had rewatched it for the first time in many years.
+
+[25:39] The the little person scene is with uh with Dinklage? Yeah. Where he's crazy doesn't call me an elf one more time, and then he does the wave. Yes. Does the wave and then he does the run flying running?
+
+[25:52] Yes, so good. And and Will Farrell's holding out like he remember when the raccoon hits uh Will Farrell, he tries to give the you need a hug, Mr. Raccoon, and the raccoon flies at him. Oh god. That's so good.
+
+[26:04] Uh was it the other? Oh, uh the the one that we use in in our family all the time is uh you smell like beef and cheese. Yeah, you don't smell like sand, you smell like beef and cheese. I've I feel like at random times of the year, Nastasia just yells at Dave, you sit on a throne of lies. Yeah, yeah, right.
+
+[26:24] Well, that's just that's not because of elf, though, that's just the case. Um Dave, can you talk about the the show that we watched where we were horrified? We watched which one would that be? Oh, which which one? The Ed Asner thing.
+
+[26:39] You and I, our text, I have a screenshot of them. It is so funny. You and I were horrified. Horrified. But it's also a good cause.
+
+[26:47] Really good. They're doing a uh they're doing a screen, uh, they're doing a um uh a re a read through, a table read, right? Of uh It's a Wonderful Life. And how has to say, here's the thing. For those of you that don't know, uh I don't watch it anymore because I got uh saturated with It's a Wonderful Life because my crazy uncle Larry used to come over to the house at Christmas time because then we would all you know be at the same house at Christmas time, and he would find whatever TNT marathon was, and he would keep It's a Wonderful Life on an endless loop.
+
+[27:17] And less loop. And this is before we, you know, we we didn't own it. It was just it was oh, it was crazy. And so uh I'm saturated. But uh It's a Wonderful Life is a Christmas thing with uh Jimmy Stewart, and so Jimmy Stewart is the main character, and so they in instead of Jimmy Stewart, they got Pete Davidson.
+
+[27:38] Now, I like Pete Davidson, Nastasi likes Pete Davidson. Really? Yeah, he did a really good job, Matt. Okay, okay, all right. Okay.
+
+[27:46] Jimmy Stewart, well known, like old style, like literally a bomber pilot in World War II, like, like the exact I cannot imagine Jimmy Stewart getting baked. I cannot imagine Jimmy Stewart even acting like someone who is getting baked. He like like Pete Davidson and Jimmy Stewart are the exact opposites of each other. And so I think a lot of people reacted negatively to the idea of Pete Davidson doing this table read, but I thought he did a good job. Yeah.
+
+[28:23] Especially this. Like you know how like uh in a table read, like you're not doing like the necessarily the full acting thing because you're just reading it, you know, ostensibly for the first time. But sometimes, whenever Pete had to get angry, he went full Staten Island on people, and that was real, right, Stas? Yeah, that was good. Go get your mother!
+
+[28:42] I was like, whoa, geez, whoa, Pete, I'm feeling that one, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, anyway. Uh so, but they had some technical difficulties, and uh, your boy Ed Asner, the Santa, the real Santa from Elf, not the beef and cheese Santa. He's about 800 million years old, right, Stas?
+
+[29:02] Yes. Yes. And so he was sitting in this He played Old Man Potter. He played Old Man Potter. So he was sitting in this chair, and every time they would cut to him, he would have a different blanket on, but he wasn't moving.
+
+[29:14] Like, so I think people were just swapping out his blanket, and he had a big Kermit the Frog colored mug of tea, and then he would just, as it was going, fall asleep. In the mid in the middle of the day, and then they would wake him up, he'd be like, he flip through the pages, do his line. But he's a perfect potter because you know he's like the master of curmudgeon. And Vanessa Williams was the narrator. She did a great job.
+
+[29:36] Uh her and her brother, who I didn't really know beforehand. And then as they cut out, they forgot to cut Ed Asner's mic immediately when they cut, and he does the classic old man. Oh, is our narrator again? And then they cut out, boom. That was the end.
+
+[29:52] It's for a good cause, though. It's for uh the Ed Asner Center, which supports um uh people who are on the autism spectrum, which obviously is caused dear to my heart. And this leads us into the charity portion of the uh episode, Nastasia. What's going on? I thought we were doing Phil singing first.
+
+[30:09] What does it matter? Okay, let me get the email. I don't have the email. Oh, Phil Phil's gotta go teach recorder. He can't stay on long.
+
+[30:17] Is Phil still on? Yes. Oh, Phil's on. Okay. I'm I'm like, again, I'm sitting by the uh the like in the basement, uh like by the home alone furnace, so I'm trying to mute just in case it's like.
+
+[30:29] Alright, so while while Nastasia is getting that stuff together, can you hum your favorite uh recorder version of uh Lady Greensleeves? Lady Greensle. I can't even hear green sleeves in my head right now. Oh I see. That's the and uh yeah, yeah, go.
+
+[30:47] But it's like the doo-doo-doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo doo doo doo doo. There you go. Merry Christmas, dude. It's not supposed to be that it's it's if it's not supposed to be that low, it's like supposed to be like you know, idiots with panpipes and stuff running around. What did you bring Phil Bravo on for his false?
+
+[31:01] Yeah, I got I I got one range, man. Uh speaking of Falsetto, there's a new B, there's a new BG's uh what's it called um documentary out that I'm sure Nastasia's gonna wish to see because I haven't watched Eastern, yeah. Yeah, she's a fan. Uh okay, ready? So we in our newsletter we had asked for people to send us our charities to call out on the air uh for people to give at the end of the year, and we have some.
+
+[31:27] So from Brady Vickers. He or she said uh that Southern Smoke is a great charity. I he's sure it's already on our list uh since we worked. It is a great charity. We've worked for them before.
+
+[31:40] Yeah, Chang just won a million dollars for them on the Who Wants to be a Millionaire. The nice thing about that charity is that um you know the people it's like a direct it's a direct give. Like uh the story were you there with me that night or were you did you make it or were you I know you you came but you might have been you were late. I don't know if you heard his story where like they this uh line cook yeah yeah this line cook got uh it hit right by a car or something like that and he was in the ICU and like the he they didn't have enough insurance to pay for the bills and so you know basically I think they were gonna pull the plug on the guy and the mom heard about Southern Smoke and called Southern Smoke and they were like, Yeah, and they paid his med bills and he's alive today. So like that's the kind of thing they can do, like direct action for to help actual individual humans in the hospitality industry.
+
+[32:34] So they're good. Right, Sasha. And then the next two are a result of the story that we posted on our newsletter about how you and I made 30,000 cookies for the troops and nobody wanted them. So I think people thought we were doing that again this year. And uh uh uh John, what's French for all hell no?
+
+[32:54] Yeah, it's more absolutely not, but yeah. Um but if people are baking cookies and want to give them uh there from Julie Snarski, our old friend at David Michaels. Oh nice. Yeah, she said that uh there's a company in Boardman, Ohio called Buttermade Bakery. Um they ship palace cookies to soldiers around the world.
+
+[33:17] Uh she also works for an organiz or an organization called Caring for Friends. Um and they're in Northeast Philadelphia by David Michael, and uh they help people uh get meals that need meals. So there's that if you're on that side of the world. And then there's also another place, Mercer Street Friends in Trenton, New Jersey. And then some Robert from SoCal said he lives in San Diego and he's been to existing conditions.
+
+[33:55] Yeah, and and if you work with Nastasia, she'll take a bite out of it first and then hand it to you. It's not true. Okay. All right. No, she didn't take a bite of any of our cookies, but this is a well-known Nastasia Lopez trick, which we won't talk about now.
+
+[34:12] We'll talk about it later. If someone is curious, we can talk about this famous trick later, but not today. Yeah. Um, nice. Yeah.
+
+[34:20] Nice. Uh, and so um I would be remiss. Well, we're talking about direct action charities. I mean, obviously, whatever, I won't get it. I'm not gonna get it.
+
+[34:30] Which one are we gonna say? I'm gonna say MoFed. What? Well, I think okay. I think well, this is more like charity for charity charity.
+
+[34:43] Okay, you know what I mean. Uh people that need things type thing. All right, yeah. Uh speaking of people that need things, before Phil Bravo, I'm gonna talk about a little little Christmas miracle that Booker and Dax could use. Get this people.
+
+[34:59] So uh listeners of the show or people who have gone on Amazon and tried to purchase it. We've gotten a lot of emails recently. Hey, why can't I buy a seasonal? Here's the answer: the answer is, and we've spoken about this before, that uh Amazon, you know, because someone someone didn't follow the instructions and didn't understand that when you season a Searsol, you have to burn off the binder in the insulation. It says so right on the package.
+
+[35:25] It's a well-known thing. Uh there it is. Uh and so, but because this person complained, Amazon now is asking us for quote unquote certification from a laboratory that is quote unquote certified. Here's the funny part. Here's what we need our Christmas miracle.
+
+[35:41] If anyone out there can hear my voice and understands what I'm saying, right? Amazon just wants it to be certified. But when we told them that we have spent before we ever came out with the Sears all, that we spent months trying to find any sort of standard for what we're doing and came up with zero because there are literally no standards for it, right? And and to be a standard, it has to be a standard that was written by a body like UL, like uh the uh NFPA national fire, you know, provided. But one of these bodies needs to write a standard that then laboratories will um do, right?
+
+[36:21] And so we told Amazon there is no standard. And they were like, How about this standard? Uh UL 147, which is a standard for torches. And we're like, well, that standard doesn't apply because we're not making the torch. And they were like, you're right, that doesn't apply, but you need to find something.
+
+[36:35] But here's the thing labs won't certify things unless there is a standard, and they won't just, for instance, like I could say to me, I could say, hey, listen, the Sears All is actually a plush toy. Can you just certify it that it's uh safe as a plush toy? And right, but they won't do that. Like labs don't play that game because they don't want to lose their their standing. Be like, listen, and there's no standards for th for inert hunks of metal.
+
+[37:01] Like there's no standard for a ladle, right? Um, other than you could get NSF for a ladle, but we can't get an SF for uh a ladle is dangerous because I could bash your head out with it. Oh, and have wanted to many times. But my point is that like, is it that that there's literally no standard? So we like uh a friend of ours was like, why don't you try to write a standard?
+
+[37:24] But then so I wrote a standard uh, you know, about like how to check to make sure that this inert hunk of metal wouldn't catch on fire, which of course it cannot, right? And then uh, but the labs are like this is not a regular standard, we won't do it. So we've been to like uh I think four labs in Shenzhen and like one in Hong Kong, and no one could because here's the thing labs are worried about their name, right? And they don't want to put a certification mark on a product if it's not a standard that is recognized. And we're like, we don't need a certification mark on on the product, we just need to send a piece of paper on your letter head to Amazon saying literally that you are a lab and you have looked at it.
+
+[38:09] It's so meaningless, and this is why you guys can't buy a Searsol, because the decision of the judges is arbitrary, but also fine. Oh uh, I've noticed that your plot that's not in stock right now. Maybe you should do something because people want to buy it. We're like, That was right, that was from Amazon. Amazon told us we should put more cerezols in stock because we don't have any, yet they're holding us back from putting it any in stock because they literally removed the search term from the thing and only put up the knockoffs.
+
+[38:44] It's so crazy. Like they didn't kill the knockoffs, which like aren't made to the same standards and frankly probably aren't safe because they don't care about things like balance and whether or not they're gonna fall over. I'm an interject, straight up not safe. What people say about them, you know, that they emit green, yellowish gases coming off of them, you know, not only in our knockoff and other knockoffs. I've seen like black metal dust coming out of them.
+
+[39:10] Like all the knockoffs are garbage. They are not worth the money. Yeah, well, and and they they're sold out now because no one can buy the real anymore, so everyone bought the fake. Yep. I'm convinced that Amazon is making and selling the knockoffs, and this is all just an Amazon thing.
+
+[39:28] Well, I appreciate your conspiracy theories, Nastasia. I mean, I really do. I'm not just being see here. I think uh that's giving them too much credit. That's like saying that the US government can do any conspiracies.
+
+[39:38] They can't, they're too dumb. You know what I mean? Like, not dumb. I'm I don't mean it that way, people. If if you work in the government, that's not what I mean.
+
+[39:44] What I mean is is, you know, look, you know, it's like one person can can paint the Sistine Chapel. Five people can't even paint a house. Do you know what I'm saying? Because they interfere with each other and they can't get their work done. You know what I mean?
+
+[39:58] It's like I don't trust that they're that they can accomplish anything like that. Anyway, whatever. That's just me. Um Phil Phil Bravo, or should I say, Phil Bravo? I just want to say, Dave, that felt like the most Christmas thing of first uh you're doing basically Dan Ackroyd with his like, this is uh bag of glass and little Johnny Sniff.
+
+[40:24] You know, how are you gonna hurt yourself with this? Okay, what was the name of that toy company again? Straight like everyone's I can't even remember. But it's like you turned into everyone's uncle who at the end was like, five people can't even go, like paint a house. The government's not gonna fix it.
+
+[40:38] You know this is this is the most Christmas morning I've had Listen, listen, listen. I'm here for you. If you can't see your crazy Uncle Air and your crazy uncle Ralph, I'm here for you, people crazy Uncle Dave. Oh my god. Uh you know what?
+
+[40:56] I am in fact. So, like the like most of my nieces and nephews, let's just put it this way. They didn't really get me, right? They don't really get me. Like, I'm not their cup of tea.
+
+[41:07] But my they like uh I'm growing on them, right? I'm growing on them. Actually, the the ones who moved to Atlanta, like they're they're they're pro me, right? But the uh the youngest of all of them, Mabel, she has always been on my side. So Mabel has always been down with crazy Uncle Dave.
+
+[41:24] However, she does refer to me as crazy uncle Dave. Which I appreciate. You know, everyone needs a crazy uncle XYZ. You don't need two, one. Uh yeah.
+
+[41:35] Well, I'm here for you, Phil. So are you here for me? Are you gonna do it? Oh no. I'm here for you, Dave.
+
+[41:42] Okay. All right, all right. All right, do you have any plugs? Do you have any plugs before you before you go and sing and get on? Yeah, I don't I don't think I have any plugs.
+
+[41:53] My my plugs are uh it sounds like those charities that you mentioned uh are amazing. Everyone should do you own Phil Bravo.com? Do you own Phil Bravo.com? Uh that's a good question. It feels like something I probably like bought 10 years ago, like late at night and drunk.
+
+[42:11] So, how do people get in touch with you when they want to hire you for voiceover work? Which is what you should be doing? Yeah. Well, if you go if you Google Phil Bravo, basically you're gonna find a uh very successful high school football coach. So, you know.
+
+[42:23] How's his voice? I don't think very good. But I keep on getting emails from like random kids that are like, I'm in, coach. Are you also gonna sing put me in, coach? I'm ready to play today.
+
+[42:34] I really I really should. But that's more of a high register song. You gotta get that like Fogarty, and you're a different kind of jerk than your man Fogerty. So um the uh Phil's email is Phil Bravo at gmail.com, right, Phil? It is.
+
+[42:50] Yeah, and he's happy to set up one on one uh one-on-one Zoom recorder lessons for you. I am you want some you want some voiceover work, that's great. Also, yeah. So support music education in your communities, everybody. That's a good Christmas thing.
+
+[43:04] All right, do it. Grinch it up. Do it. That was my plug. Uh all right.
+
+[43:11] Uh Dave, can you give the can you give me the the like the clarinet lead-in? Oh, uh I now only have the hold on a second. You got uh my mind's erased, like what's going on constantly in my head now is the heat miser song. Ba bum bum bump. You know what I mean?
+
+[43:28] That song is still amazing. That's all I have in my head. Oh you gotta basically that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
+
+[43:39] Yeah. I just did it. So you've got Dave. You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.
+
+[43:51] You really are a heel. You're as cuddly as a cactus, you're as charming as an eel, Mr. Grinch. You're a bad banana with a greasy black peel. And I'll so strong.
+
+[44:14] So good. Wait, are you also a rotter? Uh you're I'm a rotter. Uh my heart is, and I don't know if you know this, but actually full of unwashed socks. And my soul is full of gunk.
+
+[44:26] It's a whole thing. So here's here's something that I did not know until this year, which I'm ashamed to say. He's not saying tomato squash. Because I um it's not a tomato squash. I was like, what the hell is a tomato squash?
+
+[44:41] And I looked it up. I was Googling forever to try to find this elusive splotched, yeah. I did not know that. I thought that there was a squash. That would actually and I felt, yeah.
+
+[44:51] Yeah, that would be an amazing thing to make. You can make a dead tomato splotched with moldy purple spots. That's a good solid uh holiday cheer. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like the best.
+
+[45:02] We could just f I you know what? I'm actually doing that right now. I am fermenting, I'm making my uh fermented uh salsa recipe. So I I I have some tomatoes, but they're not they're fermenting. That doesn't that doesn't count, right?
+
+[45:15] It needs to be purple splots or whatever it is. Uh thank you, Phil. Thanks. What other good deep voice things are there, Phil? Someone requested what was the one that someone requested?
+
+[45:30] Well, there's I'm dreaming of a white Christmas. Yeah, white Christmas. But that's not a deep voice register. That's more of you, you don't strike me as the Bing Crosby type. Yeah, I'm not that smooth.
+
+[45:41] Yeah. Maybe you could do the Andrew Sisters. That would be amazing. If you did like all if you did all of the Andrew Sisters parts, but like three octaves down on that album. Oh wait, Phil, give me some Meli Cleeky Mukka, Phil.
+
+[45:54] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they can do that. Or Phil, you could you could Rickroll people in real life. That's not Christmas. Rick Astley is not a Christmas character.
+
+[46:08] Wait, Phil, do Dave, we had to do um what was the one we just did, Phil, for Pat. Um Wonderful Christmas Times. Oh the Yeah. Yeah, Wonderful Christmas Times. Can you that video will be coming up?
+
+[46:22] Yeah. So what can you just do a little bit? No, I'm not gonna I don't want to give that up. I did the whole I I did the whole uh guitar the guitar solo in there. Or I think it's a guitar, the guitar solo I did vocally.
+
+[46:34] So that's gonna be some some uh key. Watch watch YouTube, everyone. It's coming. The YouTube. Uh all right.
+
+[46:43] So listen, I'm gonna research Is your band gonna have a Grinch like you should have your Amin one Mr. Grinch as a video? Are you gonna do that? Uh we He's a he won't because he's a rotter. Also, I think Spike Jones's novelty band would be like the best band name.
+
+[47:01] Yeah? Wasn't that what was the name of his band? I think just naming it Spike Jones's novelty band. Yeah, all right. All right, that didn't sell.
+
+[47:09] Didn't land, hey. It didn't land. It's fine, it's good. Take it out of here five minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[47:15] Listen, uh any any sort of uh if you need some sort of like uh throw Ravencroft back from the dead or any of that stuff, first of all, like that name is an amazing name. Like if your last name is Ravencroft and your mom looks down and is like, you know what? Thorl. Right? How strong is that?
+
+[47:33] Like you're set up for life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, how lucky to get born with Ravencroft as your last name.
+
+[47:42] It's just so hardcore. What if if Phil, you if you have a kid, it should be Ravencroft Bravo. That would be so cool. Oh my god. Bravo's a great last name, Phil.
+
+[47:50] Yeah, I'm not saying your parents botched it with the Phil, but I'm saying like Hey, Phil, Phil, Phil, Phil. Tell Dave what your name was gonna be, and then what you were gonna do with that name if you had if they had. I don't even remember this, Nastasia. This is the other thing with Nastasia. You say something once because you know it'll make her laugh, and then she's like a two-year-old.
+
+[48:12] She's like, do it again! Phil was supposed to be Nick Bravo. Oh, Nick Bravo. It's my middle name. Yeah, in that case, you would have been selling cars in Florida.
+
+[48:22] Oh yeah. Nick solid used car, like Nick Bravo, damn glad to meet you. Nick Bravo is definitely used Kia. Nick Nick Bravo's definitely better with a handgun than the Phil Bravo is, right? I mean, Nick.
+
+[48:35] Yeah. Well, it's also like I think uh does everyone have the what you were gonna be named if you were a girl? I was gonna be Kelly because it was the uh seventies, Dave. So Kelly Bravo would not have landed in the same way. Kelly Bravo, yeah.
+
+[48:49] I don't know. Yeah, same vocal range is the problem. Just like oh I am jelly. Well, Nastasia, would you have been would you have been uh Joey because they ended up having one? That's what they chose?
+
+[49:02] A boy, or would you've been Michael. Michael. Yeah. Mike. Probably they were gonna name her.
+
+[49:07] They were gonna name her Thurl. Yeah. Or you might look at Nastasia and be like, hey, yo, Mike Lopez. That's like what? Yeah.
+
+[49:17] Mike. Mike Lopez and Nick Bravo. He'd have you in a Ford F-150. Well, it would have been it would have been uh Kelly Bravo at that point. Would have been Mike Lopez and Kelly Bravo, which I'd buy a car.
+
+[49:31] I'd buy a car for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So listen, stay on, Phil, because uh maybe you can chime in if you if you don't have to go teach recorder to uh small children who are uninterested.
+
+[49:42] Uh by the way, Phil, uh you're do you enjoy uh organ music? I I you know, from time to time. You mean like full out like Bach organ music? Or do you mean like it's got it's it's got its place and time. You ever walk into a church and not know there's gonna be organ music and then there's organ music and you're like, oh yeah.
+
+[50:04] Yes. I I walk into a church and I do a full out, oh yeah. I love it. An organ, an organ is like it's one of those instruments that like you can see why they put those into a church because it rattles your whole body. It's like a religious experience, a good organ.
+
+[50:21] You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, the up the other thing is that if you watch the organ footwork, it's remarkable. It's crazy. Yeah.
+
+[50:31] Cameron Carpenter. Look up Cameron Carpenter. Is that a modern organist? I'm more of an e power biggs man myself. It is.
+
+[50:38] Yeah. Ooh, fair enough. Yeah. No, he's he's like uh he's like the rock star of organ these days. That's right.
+
+[50:44] It's true. It's a thing. Yeah, yeah. Oregon's cool. I w yeah, yeah, Oregon's good.
+
+[50:49] All right. So uh Jake, Jake wrote in via email, I'm interested in whipping beer with aquafaba. Oh my god, what is whipp people? Without having to whip it? Do you have a ratio that works for you, Jacob?
+
+[51:03] Uh no, I don't listen. Listen. Why? Wait, do we know why? Listen, listen, no more aquafaba questions.
+
+[51:10] Like, just no more. Listen, listen, listen. No more. 2021, no more. Here's the thing.
+
+[51:15] There's two ways this can go. I have actively resisted aquafaba, not because it's bad, but just because so many other people are working on it that I didn't feel I needed to work on it. Right? Nastasi, is that not a fair reason? You think it's disgusting too.
+
+[51:29] I've never had it. You think my concept is disgusting. I've eaten chickpeas. I love chickpeas. Anyways, my point is this.
+
+[51:37] Uh you know you can now buy aquafaba powder? It's like powderized aquafaba. Anyway, uh I've never investigated chickpea hydrocolloids because I have plenty of purified hydrocolloids that I can work with if I want to. However, I feel, and John, maybe John can weigh in because he has no hatred one way or the other, that maybe I should just take the time to work with it so when people ask me the question, I can just here's your answer. No.
+
+[52:02] Hey, you want to know another uh Christmas uh uh Christmas kick in the in the cahoonies is uh for years I've been telling people that they should go to Mark Power and Sons in Guntersville, Alabama for all their soda needs. Right? And Nastasia is so sick of carbonation questions. I think we have a couple on this thing. She's so sick of carbonation questions that like every day she made John call me and be like, Have you done your carbonator video yet?
+
+[52:27] So we don't have to talk about it. Have you done it? Have you done it? Have you done it? And so finally I did it.
+
+[52:33] Finally, like after years, and I've been dealing with Mark Power in Guntersville, Tim specifically, there for 20 years or more. And right when I do the video is when they're like, you know what? We're getting out of the business. Oh my God. And like in the video, I have the part numbers.
+
+[52:51] I'm like, here's Tim's telephone number. I'm like, well, can I talk to Tim? Tim doesn't work here anymore. I was like, oh God. But uh, John, I don't know if you can call it up before the show is over.
+
+[53:02] They gave us a replacement house to deal with. Um, because if you're a company, if you're like a bar or restaurant, you can do you can buy all the stuff from Fox Beverage, but uh they won't sell to individual humans. But i i if you can find it, John, that would be uh helpful. Um, I want to see if I can find them. From Brian, uh I have a bunch of Hachia persimmons, the astringent variety.
+
+[53:25] I want to make uh Hoshigaki, you know, the ones that are not the flat ones, but the ones the persimmons that you hang on strings and you kind of massage them and they they turn into like little like like uh sugar bloomed pruney things. You guys know what I'm talking about? Yep. Yeah, okay. Uh but don't want to wait and hang them up and massage them daily.
+
+[53:43] Uh they get that wonderful sugar bloom when dry. Do you have any shortcuts on how to make them in a dehydrator time and temperature? Uh I don't, I've never done it. Do you think the same effect would be possible in a dehydrator? Thanks, Brian.
+
+[53:53] Um, look, uh in life, most things that take a long time. There are ways to do it quickly. The results might not be or probably will not be the same. That doesn't mean that they'll be bad. I'm gonna say that you should do the same thing that uh Nastasia Lopez and I do when we do our apple heads, because it's not like we have all day to wait around and make uh millions of apple heads.
+
+[54:16] I would use we loosely. Uh do you own a dehydrator? All you gotta do is stick them in there. Okay, you know what? No respect for what I do.
+
+[54:25] Eat it. So it's like what you have to do is you have to build, you can take the rack that you have, take everything off, and if you have an excaliber, right? Uh and depending on the length you do, I you I guess you should use twine. Uh I would make cop I used copper because I wasn't eating them and I had a lot of copper around. Little copper hangers.
+
+[54:47] So you bend a you bend like a cross, almost like a Christmas tree stand into the bottom, punch it through, and then make a hook, and you can hang them so none of them are touching. And then it's just a question of getting your uh temperatures right so you don't get case hardened. What you're worried about here is case hardening. Uh if you're gonna do the the uh persimmons though, I wouldn't put copper into them. I would just get a length uh I would I would get um bamboo skewers and I would cut them into pieces uh and then thread thread the stuff through with like a larding needle and tie the skewer so it doesn't fall off the thing.
+
+[55:19] Uh but then you'll have to fashion a hook. I mean, the copper really was nice in that respect. Maybe you could get non-reactive uh stainless wire and uh do it the easy way like I do. But that's that's how I would do it. I would hang them in the dehydrator, and I know it works fine for apple heads, but apparently I don't because I've apparently never worked on apple heads with Nastasi before.
+
+[55:36] I miss Appleheads, Dave, don't you? Uh yeah, but now do you have that song going through your head? Yeah. Apple headed doll in the anyway. Uh do we ever make an apple head doll with fur boots?
+
+[55:47] No. And or reboxed with the straps? No. We should have. We made a Jay-Z applehead.
+
+[55:54] Uh I'm not gonna get into that. That's what you said uh at at our favorite uh drug front uh event that we did, where we went to a bar who shall remain which shall remain nameless, and we flew all the way across the country to do this event. And they're like, I don't know, make like five cocktails. What does it matter? We don't need to make money.
+
+[56:13] This is a drug front. Isn't that what they said? Barn LA. It doesn't matter. He doesn't work there anymore, so you can just say what it is.
+
+[56:22] Harvard and stoned. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, I don't know. Harvard and Stoned.
+
+[56:28] We're kidding, Matt. The joke. Alright. Yeah. This episode brought to you by Appeal.
+
+[56:42] Here at HRN, we care about reducing waste across our food system, from farms to home kitchens. We know that about half of the produce we grow ends up in the trash. We all want to enjoy produce at peak freshness and reduce the amount that gets thrown away. That's where appeal comes in. Appeal is a plant-based protective layer that helps produce last up to twice as long.
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+[56:59] It's edible, invisible, and imitates how peels naturally protect fruits and vegetables. Appeal works with nature to reduce waste across the food system, from the farm to the kitchen. Appeal helps us to conserve our precious resources to ensure that we have fresh food to meet our growing needs. Appeal. Food gone good.
+
+[57:24] Learn more at Appeal.com. Michael Murno wrote in Hey, not sure who to reach out to, but here it goes. I recently batched up some eggnog in order to let it mature in time for Christmas. I used six cups of creamslash whole milk. So that means like a mixture of cream and whole milk, I guess.
+
+[57:41] A dozen egg yolks, a pound of sugar, and about four to five cups of so that's like a quart and a half, quart, like a fifth and a fraction of uh rum brandy bourbon uh by uh by measure. Uh let's say it's four cups because in the end you did it to taste. Uh I know you've talked about aged eggnog on the show, but can't seem to find the episode in the back catalog. So I'm wondering if you could just briefly talk about it so that I could have a sound bite to reassure my wife that I am not trying to poison her. Are you not trying to poison her, Michael?
+
+[58:11] I don't know. Uh here's the thing it all depends on time plus uh alcohol and sugar. So the the two things that you have in there that are gonna stop the eggs from uh the cream is not a problem. It's it's either gonna spoil or it's it's not, but it's not a problem. What what everyone sh is theoretically worried about is the uh is the salmonella in the eggs.
+
+[58:33] And the interesting thing about eggnog recipes is that the longer you keep them, not the better they get, although some people think so. Nick Bennett, uh our friend Nick Bennett has aged them for I don't know how many years and brought them out. Um but you need to keep them for a certain length of time in order for all the bacteria to die because they don't die right away uh from the from the eggs. Uh and the amount of time it takes is going to depend on the alcohol and the sugar level, both of which are going to inhibit the salmonella. And I would just check your there is published online, uh Rockefeller University has the they did the famous challenge test where they inoculated their eggnog recipe with salmonella and waited to see how long it took to kill all the salmonella.
+
+[59:17] And so if your alcohol and sugar levels are anywhere close to theirs, I would uh give that uh little uh paper sound bite uh to the family and reassure them that uh while in fact they will die, it won't be from that. Wait, so Dave, are you saying that the eggnog that Phil made that year where it was with the eggs and he served it immediately was not okay? Well, we all know that you guys don't care about each other. Maybe that's what I was saying. I that that that was one of the most irresponsible things in the world.
+
+[59:44] I think that maybe what you did is tried to save everybody. Yeah. By by sabotaging it. Look. Uh yeah.
+
+[59:55] I there is no re I I'm pretty positive I gave like 63 people uh salmonella that year. Merry Christmas. In the real life, in the real life, right? Uh, you know, a lot in I don't know. I I don't I don't honestly know.
+
+[1:00:09] It would be interesting, I could probably look it up. A chart on um salmonella incidents in eggs per thousand year by year, right? Because um obviously the more um confined the hens are the the larger the chance for a contamination uh in uh in in your egg supply. Uh but there are so and so the arc people have always also said, oh, uh I'm I'm not worried about it because I only use organic eggs where like I'm a friend with the chicken. I'm like, there is no evidence that Phil, your eggs were from the deli on 48th and 9th, right?
+
+[1:00:48] Exactly. They they literally they're gonna be able to do that. He's friends with the bodega guy free. Yeah, he's friends with the bodega guy. Uh by that you mean the bodega cat, I think.
+
+[1:00:56] Yeah, yeah. That's who is pooping out the eggs. They the cat ate the chicken and pooped out the eggs. But Dave, isn't it uh isn't it a thing like supply chain? Isn't theoretically because the trucks are now refrigerated in a way they weren't in like the 60s that theoretically there's a lower instance of salmonella regardless?
+
+[1:01:12] I don't think. The internet lied to me. Uh uh look, all I'm saying is is that in the absence of data, I'm just gonna go say I don't know the data. But what I what I will say is that um there are many recipes uh that call for raw egg, like Caesar salad. Um and they're you know, you're just rolling the dice.
+
+[1:01:37] And that's dice that we roll on the regular. You know what I mean? Or you can pasteurize the egg yolks uh if you if you want, or pasteurize the whole eggs if you have an immersion circulator, or you could buy pasteurized eggs. Um, but that's just uh, you know, it's one of those uh what's it called? Uh risks that that people take.
+
+[1:01:58] And the you know, one of the big things is just letting people know that they're taking the risk, and most people who are on the younger non-imb immunocompromised side are willing to take the risk of eating a raw egg every now and again, right? I I like Dave that the uh your answer to the question started with like, and then you can give your wife this white paper that uh outlines why it's relatively safe. And then you end it with, you know, I mean, you drive a car, that's dangerous. Drink the eggnog. I mean, no?
+
+[1:02:26] Am I wrong? I mean, I think you're right. Yeah. Uh and and again, the the party in question that Nastasia is talking about. I did not inform people that they were all drinking raw egg or something.
+
+[1:02:37] Uh because I I was not responsible as a human at that point in my life. That uh checks out, Phil. That checks out. Yeah. So apologies to everybody.
+
+[1:02:47] Yeah. From wet market dynamics via Twitter. Uh we have been using your we've been using your French fry recipe. Uh, do you have a comparable recipe technique for potato chips? Hashtag not a Thanksgiving question.
+
+[1:03:00] This is an old one. Uh I'm actually working on one for uh the uh forthcoming uh someday book, The Miracle of Moisture Management. I have run over the past month, probably 25 potato chip tests. Uh and here's a question for you people, you people meaning anyone who can hear this. What is your ideal chip?
+
+[1:03:23] And you have to, and Nastasia has a chip she says she's gonna send me because she has an ideal chip out where you are, right, Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah. So the the real question is is uh everyone gets hyped up on the uh variety of the potato and say, yeah, true, fine, uh as far as it goes. But it's really like thickness, crunch level, color, I think deep river is pretty good for a mass-produced chip, no?
+
+[1:03:48] So you like them you like them hard. Yeah. So like not like a crispy lace. Do you care how dark the potato is? Because that's the thing.
+
+[1:03:58] Um, I think the darker it is, the more I'm like, oh, it's gonna be harder, so it's gonna be good. So you like a dark chip. Yeah. Uh yeah. So a lot of people don't like a dark chip.
+
+[1:04:08] And in fact, a lot of work that's done in potato chip. So, like, I I'll just say this. The the the great divide in potato chips is like old school kettle, where it's basically slicing almost directly into the oil, right? Versus some form of soak or blanch where you're blanching it and soaking it. And um, you know, b if you're if you're not doing a soak or a blanch beforehand, right?
+
+[1:04:38] The soak in the blanch is not just to get rid of extra starch, right, but to get rid of sugars on the outside. And if if you get rid of those sugars, but those sh those sugars cause it to go brown if it's cooked. Also, the thicker you slice it, the more brown it's gonna be because you cook, because you cook longer. So, you know, if you don't care, right, then you can stay on the kettle side. If you do care about it getting brown, then you um you need to go um you need to go through one of these procedures that I that I've been working on.
+
+[1:05:09] And the other little, the other little tidbit is that you want a high specific gravity potato because you want the lowest moisture content potato, the highest solids ratio potato going in. Uh but that's all I could say about it right now. For more, you'll have to wait till I'm done with my tests, and I have a definitive idea of what I'm what I'm doing. Um Jeebus, I got so many. From uh yeah, but we didn't answer anyone's uh question.
+
+[1:05:35] Hold on second. Here, hey, Dave, Nastasia, uh, Matt in the COVID booth, uh, and also Phil. They Mark doesn't know you're here, Phil, but you know, I'm welcoming you in my in my form. Uh I've recently started working at a deli at a grocery store, and we have a couple of rationale combi ovens, which we use for reheating cryovac food items and for cooking the ubiquitous roost chicken to go. Uh chicken breasts that are eventually diced up for salads, wraps, and joints, and etc.
+
+[1:06:00] etc. Uh I've been slightly alarmed by the temperatures that we cook to. The chicken is uh done until it's probed at 190 Fahrenheit. Ouch. The beef at 154 Fahrenheit.
+
+[1:06:11] Uh Booker, what's 154 Fahrenheit in Celsius? Um 68. 68! And the brisket 172 brisket's fine if you're doing higher temp stuff like like uh like barbecue style. Uh I find these temps to be high and the enemies of quality, especially the chicken breasts, which are dry and chalky out of the oven.
+
+[1:06:28] I believe that. Uh I believe that you referred to these ovens being pretty accurate over about 140. Well, they're accurate in the in the average, right? So they'll swing like 10 degrees or so uh or more, but the their average is pretty accurate. And I'm wondering if there's any danger in doing these products at a lower temp, like I would do in my home, my circulator.
+
+[1:06:45] Uh my thought is that we have these expensive accurate machines, and we we would be providing a better product if the temperatures were more in line with modern cooking thought. I do uh not, however, want to put anyone, including the immunocompromised people and infants, in danger. Where shall my limits be? And should I uh just let sleeping dogs die? Um yeah, so see, what do they do chicken to 190?
+
+[1:07:09] That's just like that's like crack smoking temperature. That's just crazy. Just like take yeah, yeah, take it down. There's no need to cook that high. There's no need to cook that high, especially if you if you can temp it and then cook it longer.
+
+[1:07:20] If you can get it up to like a known uh good pasteurizing temperature and then let it ride, then you've uh you've got a little bit of a thermal thing in these. Those like I don't even I've never even heard of 190. That's just what's 190 in Celsius, Booker. 190 Fahrenheit? Yeah.
+
+[1:07:36] 88. 88. Oh my god. You heard that right. Jesus.
+
+[1:07:42] That is that is look. The chicken died. You've killed the chicken. Don't kill it again. John, are you with me on this?
+
+[1:07:50] Yeah, absolutely. Criminal what's happening there. Yeah. Remember that that's one of my favorite lines from uh from uh big night. It's a criminal, it's a criminal.
+
+[1:08:00] That's that's uh, you know, Shalub's great. I mean, like, Shalou's done a lot of good work, but the Shalub and the and the Tucci in uh in that movie, classic. Which one of you people hadn't seen it? Matt, have you seen it yet? I have seen it.
+
+[1:08:13] I saw it, I watched it early in the pandemic. It was great. Yeah. Alright. Nice.
+
+[1:08:17] Great movie. Uh Sergio wrote in. Uh hope I'm not uh leaving anyone out. Uh the list of people. Uh I know the hammer does not like Aussie accents.
+
+[1:08:28] She told me the last time I tried to convince her to visit for food and art, but we are not all crocodile Dundee. I should hope not. That movie does not hold up, people. If you go back and you watch Crocodile Dundee, it does not hold up. It's like saying all New Yorkers are Simpson style of rednecks.
+
+[1:08:42] But whoa, none of us are like that. You're thinking of two different people. We got your rednecks. So if you want to see like rednecks and New Yorkers in the same, like you have to, I can tell you where to go to see everything. Florida, I think.
+
+[1:08:55] Rednecks and New Yorkers. It's just Florida. No, but if you just want to do it by car, like you could go check out the Swamp Yankees up in like, you know, uh Northern Connecticut, right? Right, John? I can say that.
+
+[1:09:05] You're a nutmegger. You like a swamp Yankee, right? Anyway. Um, like, you know, we we have our own, we have our own rednecks here in the Northeast. People don't remember that.
+
+[1:09:15] They're like, oh, it's all you coastal elites. Not true. We have real rednecks here. You know what I mean? Anyone gonna back me up?
+
+[1:09:22] Yeah, yeah. All right. Um, I once looked at a uh at a property, we couldn't afford it to buy it. Get this on the Connecticut River, right? And so there's a kind of a blue-collar side of the Connecticut River and and a fancy dance side of the Connecticut River.
+
+[1:09:35] I'm not gonna say which side John uh is on right now, but it's the fancy side. So I was on the other side, and everyone's dream is to have a plot of land on the river because it comes with it with a God-given right to have your own dock, and that means you can have your own boat on the Connecticut, right? So they these these it basically the the plots of land were the width of the slips so that people could put their docks out. And I went to go look at it in November, and the the person who was gonna uh was showing me his property, right? They kind of had running water, but the like like a Nastasia favorite thing, like the bathroom was kind of outside of their of their trailer thing.
+
+[1:10:20] And he was outside shirtless cooking over a tire fire, slugging rum out of a Captain Morgan's handle. All right. Now, don't anyone tell me that we don't have our own rednecks up here. Anyway. Um, oh, I didn't get to the question.
+
+[1:10:41] Anyway, not trying to convince her anymore. Dave, you should visit uh and bring Harold. Uh question time now. I have seen black garlic. Oh, jeep.
+
+[1:10:51] He just said, don't bother, you're not gonna go. Oh, you you would go. Come on. Uh I have seen black garlic recipes for the rice cooker, tried it and done it. Seen black onion recipes, which apparently need a bit more moisture.
+
+[1:11:03] I tried shallots uh and they just disappeared. I guess they need more moisture. Uh never tried shallots. Uh question is for some reason I have a mental block on shallots because the French love them so much that I've never gotten into them. Is that unfair?
+
+[1:11:17] I like a fried shallot, like a crispy fried shallot. But like, like who the hell wants to peel all those things and then and then uh does it like shallots more than onions and stuff. Really? Do you enjoy the crop the cross, the shallon? You ever use those, Nastasia?
+
+[1:11:34] The shallows? Yeah. That sounds good. They're like long like a shallot, but bigger like an onion, and the taste is right in between. John, do you have to do that?
+
+[1:11:42] They're good. Yeah, they're good. Yeah, they're good. And they're not as much of a pain. First of all, shallots, you're like, I gotta peel all these, and then when you take the outside layer off, they're like, ah, it's actually two things inside that you need to peel again.
+
+[1:11:55] Ha ha. You know what I mean? Hate. Hate it. Um question is oh, uh question is Will the sugars on corn work the same way as the garlic.
+
+[1:12:06] Could you make sweet black corn, even theoretically? Uh love your show and Argentinian in Melbourne, so not the hammer's average Aussie accent for sure. Uh listen, I don't think so. Uh I had looked, this question came in a while ago, but because we've had a bunch of guests, uh, I haven't got a chance to answer it. And um I'm pretty sure that it's it's not just the sugar, it's the uh very complicated sulfur chemistry that's going on in different alliums, and that's why it happens with different alliums.
+
+[1:12:34] But it might be possible to do a mix of uh like garlic and corn or something like that and get get an interesting uh result. Um but you know, I don't know. Let me let me let me know, but I would guess not. I've hold I've held things that have some sugar in them for several days in a rice cooker and not had things changed, but I haven't tried corn. Um, Crookshank wrote in via the chat room.
+
+[1:12:59] Uh, what's the best way to remove skins from chickpeas? They've tried baking soda, but the removal is still a pain. Uh I don't have a good thing for that. John, do you have a good chickpea uh removal um? Hey, this is the last question.
+
+[1:13:12] Hold up. Do you have one, John? John is done. No, I'm sorry, dogs keep barking. Uh no, I do not.
+
+[1:13:20] And I think Kenji wrote about this as well for like a good hummus, and he says there is no good way to remove the skins. It's just tedious work. Yeah, you know what else sucks? Removing the skins off of almonds. I don't care what people say.
+
+[1:13:31] Like, first of all, you've ruined that dish towel now. You guys all know what I'm talking about? Yes. You rubbed it. Dish towel ruined, or like buy them.
+
+[1:13:38] Okay. Merry Christmas. Hold on, look. Can I sharpen serrated knives with sharpening stones? Uh the spider code.
+
+[1:13:44] Mary Chris. Spiderco makes a special uh sharpener to sharpen serrated things, but you cannot do it with a uh regular um stone. Goodbye. Wait. No, Dave.
+
+[1:14:02] Dave. Hold on. We have a bunch of hold on! We have a bunch of questions that we didn't get to do. Goodbye, everybody.
+
+[1:14:07] I'm out. Okay. You're bye. When's our next show, John? Next week.
+
+[1:14:11] Are we doing a show next week? Yeah, so get over it. I didn't know we were doing a next show next week. That's why I couldn't find out because you're so willing to tell people to blow up. I I was gonna do whatever you wanted to do.
+
+[1:14:22] There you go. All right. Happy holidays. Happy holidays. Christmas with Nastal.
+
+[1:14:31] Yeah. Yeah, right? Right. Yeah. Now you guys know.
+
+[1:14:35] Enjoy it. We have a meeting at 10.30. 1.30. Oh, and we're gonna prep so much for the next 13 minutes that I can't die. I'm not gonna think about it even.
+
+[1:14:43] People, if I have a meeting with you, I'm not thinking about it until 30 seconds beforehand. Just so as you know. Happy holidays, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:15:00] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:15:18] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:15:39] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] My name is Sarah Kim and I'm from Austin, Texas. I'm a Cheeselandian because while life is great, cheese makes it better. Go to Cheeselandia.com to learn more. And if it's for you, sign up. Hello, welcome to Cookie Users.
+
+[0:19] This is Dave Arald, your host of Crooking Users coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, whenever, from whenever to whenever. I'm at my Oh, by the way, just so you guys know, a little uh a little bit behind uh behind the curtain, uh Wizard of Oz style here. We forgot to clap beforehand, so we can't actually sync this up. So this is how we do it. Dave.
+
+[0:39] See? Very good. Yeah, yeah. Uh we have uh and when we when each person talks, maybe they can clap in and be awesome. Uh we got Matt up there in uh in uh Rhode Island.
+
+[0:51] How you doing? Very good. I will do that because I'm recording. Yeah, we got uh John Customer Service Representative Extraordinaire. Uh he's more than customer service representative, I would say.
+
+[1:02] He's in uh Lyme, Connecticut, where I was recently. How are you doing, John? Not too bad, mate. Hello, everybody. Are you nice, nice.
+
+[1:09] And uh Nastasia from her undisclosed Heidi Hole somewhere in Southern California. How you doing? Good. Yeah, you can clap or you're not recording. Whoa.
+
+[1:19] What was that? You just punching the mic? Because I'm holding the mic. Yeah. Very nice.
+
+[1:24] Oh, you're doing this like stage style? Yeah. Are you like, are you headbanging? No. Like when like we usually when I like to hold the mic, I like to like bang the head with it.
+
+[1:35] Right now, you know what I'm saying? No? No. You're not a headbanging mic sort of a person? No.
+
+[1:41] More of a stage crooner. Yes. Yes. I have a a glass of scotch with me too. Oh, yeah.
+
+[1:48] So wait, so like you so when you think of stage Crooner, you think of like the whole kind of Dean Martin drinking while you singing kind of a thing. Oh, yeah, and you can hear like the ice sort of hitting the walls. Yeah, it's rough on the pipes. Do you know what I'm saying? Like drinking, like uh for those of you that don't know, Nastasia Lopez and I, along with uh my brother-in-law, Travis Huggett, years ago flew to uh Modesto, California, right?
+
+[2:14] I wish it was Bakersfield. We almost got to go to the Bakersfield concert, which would have been sick because that's where the Bakersfield sound is from, Bakersfield. We flew to uh Modesto. You actually can't fly to Modesto, right, Styles? We had to drive there from San Francisco.
+
+[2:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And uh to get Merle Haggard, back when he was alive, it would have been a different thing if he was already dead, uh, to skull where we had this project where we were like getting all of these people, some you know, mostly chefs uh and bartenders, but like some non-chefs and bartenders, to do this thing where you you have your shot of Aquavete, you look at the camera, which is supposed to be the other person that you're drinking with, you you down it all, and then you you look back at the camera again. You have to, and it the whole thing is is that it's the before and after, the before stare versus the after stare. How does it look like?
+
+[3:04] And um we went to do Merle Haggard, and we got him before the concert, and he's like, I don't drink before concerts anymore because it's bad for the pipes. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah, bad for the pipes. Yeah.
+
+[3:18] Um, but anyway, that was fun. And in that photo shoot we did with Merle Haggard, Travis just as he normally does, because the one of the reasons Travis was so good at this, is Travis is very good at like just taking with whatever light is available, like uh found light kind of a situation, and like dealing with kind of uh uncontrolled situations. Let's put that's why he shot that's why he shot uh my book Liquid Intelligence, because I knew that someone who was gonna work with me would have to deal with uncontrolled situations, as they say. And um, so he just was like, you know, shooting during the during the time we were talking to uh Merle, and one of the shots he took there happened to be uh like uh Merle's next album cover, which I thought was pretty cool. Was that I wonder whether that was his last album, whether he came out with another album afterwards.
+
+[4:08] I don't know. I'll have to look it up. Um what did you guys cook over the holidays? And you think what do you guys have? Uh all of you for the so all of you guys are Christmas folk, right?
+
+[4:19] You're all Christmas folk? Yep. All right, so what do you guys have for the Christmas dinner? I did some uh Japanese wagyu, uh Yorkshire pudding, roasted carrots, sauteed mushrooms. I think that was a we had like the bichte de Noelle for dinner or for dessert.
+
+[4:40] Oh, I say that with the French accent again. Buste de Noelle. Yeah. Hey, John, are you gonna forget your accent and forget your English and go French? I wasn't gonna bring this up because I didn't think Nastasia wanted me to, but Nastasia Nastasia is incensed.
+
+[4:58] Incensed over the whole Hilaria Baldwin situation that's going on right now. I'm not gonna explain it all to you guys because that's why Google was invented. Uh but are you incensed, Matt? No, I'm not. I mean, I I'm only vaguely aware, but can you tell me?
+
+[5:13] Like, why should I be pitch me on incense? Why should I be incensed? She's been faking a Spanish accent and being born in Spain and pretending not to know English words for over 10 years. And even though it just came out that she was born and raised in Boston, went to Spain on holiday sometimes with her parents. Her parents retired to Mallorca.
+
+[5:39] They did not live there full-time like she said they did when she was young. And she went to NYU. So it's amazing. It's like so bold because this is all happening in the age of the internet, too. So isn't this like a foreseeable thing that maybe somebody would turn around and be like, didn't I go to middle school with that person?
+
+[5:58] Yeah. So I have the the opinion of who gives a crap. But the the thing is is that so I was saying to Nastasia and John, I haven't spoken to you about this, that you and Hilaria are basically the exact same person, only you haven't faked it, right? You have a similar profile in that you could all of a sudden start going by Jean and then also busting out like the hardcore, like you know, accent like Belgique accent, you know what I'm saying? And like you could do that.
+
+[6:32] And then I was like, would Nastasia get as pretzeled up over that would be so weird. Well, I think the thing that bothers me is that she she pretended not like when it's convenient to not know certain cultural things, like you know, Alec, I guess, is into a lot of um opera and stuff like that, or or books or TV shows. She said she didn't grow up with in that with a TV in Spain. Well, how does it be? Does the opera like shuffle with that?
+
+[6:59] So you say opera is separate, opera's not part of the Hilaria discussion, right? Because that's all European. I mean, no offense to you know, Philip Glass and his so-called. No, no, no. I mean, she feigned not to know much about like opera because it wasn't.
+
+[7:11] Yeah, but that's not an American thing. Anyway, well, he was the the commentator for the mess. I like how now she's pretending to not know opera. Clearly she knows opera. She went to NYU.
+
+[7:20] Clearly she knows opera. But do we do we believe that she has lied to Alec Baldwin? We don't know. We don't know. I uh we there are people that have a theory in my close circles that when she met him, she was like, Oh crap, I need to be interesting.
+
+[7:40] I can't just be Hillary from uh Boston and you know, I need to like keep this guy's interest. So she so she created a thing. And and he loves or loved the fact that she had this accent and was like, you know, very Spanish and danced with uh whatever it's called. So now I see the root in for Jean's transformation. It'll be on her first date, it'll be really he's like, I'm really excited about this one, guys.
+
+[8:06] I got a good feeling, and all of a sudden just straight Belgian. So John, John, give me some uh how you say a pompe-frit uh in English. Give me some, give me some. Oh, what's the go, you have to go with full fake accent on me. Oh, yeah, speak all in English except for you've forgotten how to say French fries.
+
+[8:24] Exactly. Give me some. That's how I used to drink underage. I would scan a photocopy of my passport and then like Microsoft Paint move some numbers around, and then I'd walk around, you know, with a photocopy of a 21-year-old passport, and I'd put on the fake French accent and everything. And it worked most of the time.
+
+[8:40] It was pretty impressive. So give so so give me some I would like a beer. Give me some I would like a beer. How you say French fries? I would like to be, and how would you say French fries?
+
+[8:50] Yeah, there you go. There you go. There you go. I would definitely give you a drink. Nastasia, now how incensed are you currently about John's sins?
+
+[8:59] Uh not incensed at all. I think it's about John, no, about how yeah. Oh, you're saying beating me. I mean, you know, just checking. The big thing about Hillary.
+
+[9:10] By the way, Nastasia's not Nastasia's never gonna get mad at someone for scamming for a beer. No. Scamming for a husband. It's not even that. First of all, like correct me if I'm wrong, Nastasia, or if I'm speaking out of turn, we can we can bleep it out of the whole show.
+
+[9:26] It's up to you. But it's not that Nastasia has her eyes on Alec Baldwin. That would be ridiculous, but she considers him prime material and is upset that she has been he has been scammed this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True?
+
+[9:37] Scammed scammed out of a good one. But what's the bigger and what's the overarching thing? Yeah. If if if it had come out that like Hilaria had, you know, that she was Countess Bathory and was drinking children's blood to stay young. That would be fine by Nastasia.
+
+[9:56] The fact of the matter is is that because of Alec Baldwin, she is constantly quote unquote forced to go to Saturday Night Live tapings and their after parties. And is this so over the sake of going to Saturday Night Live? And this is why Nastasia hates her. Exactly. Oh no.
+
+[10:16] Yeah. Yeah. She sleeps backstage while he while he does his Trump thing and then makes him leave as soon as he's done with the the cold open. Ah, we've gotten to the meat of the issue here. Yeah.
+
+[10:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True story. Uh, and that's where the hatred comes from.
+
+[10:34] So, you know, is she gonna get mad at you know, John going by Jean and not remembering how to say le French Fries or whatever? No. That's all fine. That's all good. You know?
+
+[10:45] Uh anyways. All right. So John's like, uh, so let me ask you a question, John. Back to cooking for a minute. So you so I'm a big fan of Yorkshire pudding.
+
+[10:55] How'd it come out? Did it puff up or was it sunken and sad? Uh, it was very puffed up. My mom makes it every year, and it was uh yeah, it was good. All right, beautiful.
+
+[11:02] So for those of you that aren't in the know who aren't like a roast beef kind of a situation person, a Yorkshire pudding is basically a large um a large popover slash Dutch baby slash uh whatever. What the it it's a thin batter that puffs up and gets airy in the middle, uh heavy on eggs and a fat, and in Yorkshire pudding, the fat is the drippings from the roast beef that you just cooked, and while the roast beef is resting, you pour in the batter into the theoretically you pour it into the roasting pan and throw it in. Although a Yorkshire pudding made in a popover pan with drippings is a good idea because it's easier to cut and serve out. However, uh, so that is what it is. So how does your mom do it every year?
+
+[11:45] I actually don't know. I haven't asked the recipe. We don't use we don't do the beef fat. Well, we didn't this year. Um, because you cooked wagyu, and who has enough wagyu fat like right.
+
+[11:56] That's what I that's where I was getting with my questions, is that traditionally you would make this with the with the fat from the roast, but I'm guessing you didn't have that this year because to cook the wagyu so hard that you have the fat from the roast would cause you to be the lowest of quality individuals. Agreed, yes. Yeah. So what was the form factor of this Yorkshire pudding? Uh she does like a nine by thirteen glass.
+
+[12:22] Yeah, I'm familiar with the the Pyrex casserole pants. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I have several such casserole pants, even though my family not a fan of the casserole. Okay.
+
+[12:29] That's when we had Joey Scladani on. I was like, yo, tuna casserole. He's like, yes, but tuna casserole is widely hated. Widely hated. Yeah.
+
+[12:41] You know what I mean? Yeah. And I don't think any of the other people here like do what what Nastasia and Matt, what are your thoughts on the tuna casserole? I haven't had it in a very long time. I don't mentally though.
+
+[12:52] Oh, I don't think I'd like positive associations with a tuna casserole. Here's my issue. Why not? Hot tuna. Hot tuna.
+
+[13:01] Yeah. Great conjunction of words. Wasn't that a band or a is that an album? Yeah, it's a better band name than it was band, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[13:09] Band name, fantastic hot tuna. But uh okay, so if you don't like hot tuna, what about tuna melts? Also, you don't like tuna melts? No, not really. Okay, how about this?
+
+[13:19] It's served cold, tuna mac. I think tuna mac's a fantastic thing. Someone was like Yeah, I like tuna mac, but I don't the tuna does not get hot when I do that. No, no, that's what I'm saying. If you i i if you guys are anti-hot tuna the band and anti-hot tuna the food stuff, maybe I can get you guys on board with tuna mac, but I think a lot of people also don't like the tuna mac.
+
+[13:40] Whereas to me, I'm like, I like tuna salad. I like pasta salad. Although a lot I'm sure Nastasia does not like pasta salad because of how abused it gets. I'm not sure. I haven't discussed this with her.
+
+[13:50] But then if you like either of those two things, the conjunction of them sounds like a good idea. And by the way, is tuna many an episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Tuna Mac because it's the thing that I make in like 30 minutes right before you know getting on here. Like a like a quick crappy whip tuna. Where do you have your cold macaroni? Uh oh no, man.
+
+[14:12] I this is like hot. This is hot macaroni. I mean, well, you know, yeah. Approaching hot macaroni, and I don't know. It's not the whole, the whole dish is not cold.
+
+[14:22] It's a whole like uh mixed bag. This is not restaurant food. This is like I have 15 minutes to do this before the show. Go. And are you doing it with instant ramen?
+
+[14:33] Is that how fast you have to be? No, but like mac and cheese, like Annie's mac and cheese or whatever. With the cheese pack? Yeah, dude. So this is basically tuna casserole.
+
+[14:43] You're saying you're doing you're doing tuna mac, but in fact you're making tuna casserole. Oh, is that what tuna casserole is? I guess I don't know what tuna casserole is then. Yeah, that's well, it's usually soupier, right? So like it's it's soupier than mac and cheese, but you're you're doing an exact halfway and you're serving at loop temperature, so because it right, because it's not hot.
+
+[15:01] You you you don't want it to be hot, so you're you're folding the tuna in to cool it off at the end, letting it cool for five seconds and then eating it. And then shoving it in my face while I set up this call, yeah. So okay, so I do so I do love so tuna casserole. Yeah, what brand of mac and cheese do you go for? Oh, Annie's.
+
+[15:20] Yeah. I'm not like Booker likes the annie's not a fan. Too thin. How do you thicken up that sauce? Too thin.
+
+[15:26] I guess the tuna. Uh the tuna the tuna helps there. I mean, a bunch of random stuff in. I I throw extra cheese in too if I've got something fine. So you're you're an Annie's an Annie's Mac doctor in the way that uh whatever her name was, Sarah Lee.
+
+[15:42] What was it? What was her name that used to be married to uh Cuomo Nastasia? Sandrally. Sandrally. Like her big thing was Doctoring cake mixes.
+
+[15:50] Maybe you have a cookbook in your future, Matt, like the the the Annie's Mac Doctor. What do you think? I think I'll let someone else. Cooking issues listeners, you can have that one for free. Here's another one.
+
+[15:59] Like on Mac and Cheese while we're on it. Like, how many of you guys like sad thin mac and cheese? I probably shouldn't have called it sad, because that means that I think it's bad. But I I don't like a thin sauced mac and cheese. I prefer more substance.
+
+[16:19] You guys don't like too much substance. Your medium substance sort of a photo. Yeah. I get sad when I am rushing things and accidentally thin it out more than I want, for sure. Nastasia, what are your mac and cheese opinions?
+
+[16:34] Didn't you do a great Nastasia was the queen of mac and cheese? What do you like? Nastasia had the best fast mac and cheese when she was doing pasta flyer. Her mac and cheese recipe was like next level mac and cheese and fast as fudge. So fast.
+
+[16:50] Like four minutes, I think. But I don't remember the consistency that you that you did. What was she's not gonna tell you the secret, dude? She's not like me. She might.
+
+[17:01] No, no. Um I don't remember. Consistency was was uh was silky and uh well covered across all pasta pieces. First of all, have you and Booker been talking to each other? Because whenever whenever you know Booker's favorite like high quality indicator is silky, usually reserved for fish.
+
+[17:27] But I like that you've moved it over to the pasta thing. Silky. Silky. Uh we we we've spoken on the air since I made the uh since I made the locks for him, right? Yeah, all right.
+
+[17:38] Well uh won't won't get into that. Um all right, all right. So look, we should should we rip through some questions here? Let's rip through some questions. Now listen, uh there's been a lot of uh talk in our chat room, right, John, about this kind of aseptic uh ASAP cooking technology uh that's coming uh out of I guess either Australia or China or whatever it is on like you know, advanced like sous vide aseptic packaging.
+
+[18:03] Yep. Uh but I don't but there's no real question here involved, right? No, it's just like a little more for I don't know if you wanted to to share that with everyone is just something I would say I thought it would be of interest to you. Yeah, it's just long. I don't know that you know.
+
+[18:15] You should not read the full thing. I just sent it to you in case you're interested 'cause it was a very lively discussion going on in the chat. Yeah, I bet. I mean like that like look, in general, my issue when something new comes out is that the less people tell you and apparently the owner of the company came out to talk to one of the chat people and uh cause they I think I uh talked to them on the side to explain ex exactly kind of what the processing is. But I okay, check this out.
+
+[18:42] I was once in a um a think tank situation, uh with a large manufacturer of equipment. And one of the this was before we had the Searsol and all that stuff, which, you know, at the end, Nastasia will can wind me up like one of those uh one of those I I'm more of a symbol monkey, right, Nastasia? Yeah, you are. Yeah, yeah. She can wind me up and I'll ching ching ching ching ching ching ting at the end.
+
+[19:08] You know, I gotta go get my little my little my cymbal monkey hat and uh, you know. My ears actually are pretty big. I could probably just fluff them out a little bit and go full symbol monkey at the end on what's going on with uh Amazon because people are asking uh for Searsols and whatnot. So we'll get into that maybe at the end. Um I'm in this meeting with the with these with these people.
+
+[19:31] One of the people who was brought to the think tank was a product developer for a very large he was a brand actually developer. So his job was he would go out to people's homes, like potential customers' homes, and just sit in their home all day and ask them questions that they didn't understand and then relate that to food technology and what they were gonna sell them the next year vis-a-vis soup. So he would like sit, he didn't work for Campbell's, by the way. I can't tell you who he worked for, but he would like he would go to someone's house, like with his, you know, like I am a researcher outfit on and just sit there and talk to Randos all day without really asking them specific questions like, hey, what kind of soup you folks like? He would never ask that, right?
+
+[20:15] And he told me, this was years ago, that there was a revolutionary, revolutionary new technology for soup that was going to completely change the entire soup category and make things taste fresh and not canned, and that and that pasta was no longer gonna be a pile of mush and that like potatoes weren't gonna be overcooked and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, can you tell me how it works? And he couldn't, and guess what happened? Nothing. Soup has not been revolutionized.
+
+[20:42] It didn't work. If people can't tell you how exactly they're gonna revolutionize uh something, and or they can't like disclose it because they can't get a patent or they can't do whatever, or they can't protect it, then odds are if they can't tell you about it, unless they say I'm gonna tell you about it at this date when this happens, right? Odds are it's not real. Wouldn't you say that's true, guys? Yeah.
+
+[21:04] Yeah. Like, for instance, if someone says, I'm gonna give you my taxes and they don't for like six years. I'm just kidding, I'm not telling you. I'm not supposed to have a lot of people. No, no, no, no politics.
+
+[21:15] No politics. You did this. No politics. We can go into it if you want. I didn't say no.
+
+[21:14] I didn't say no. Happy to. Connor, Connor wrote in uh from uh Instagram and uh Chow, I have a cooking issue. I'm a bartender and I was working with Monin Pure today. They're monin's Yuzu.
+
+[21:34] I've never seen Monin Purees, I just see their their syrups. You guys ever seen the puree's? I'm not no. No. Uh it sits in at around 70% sugar.
+
+[21:42] That's intense and contains uh pectin. That's intensely sugary for a puree. Uh obviously it's very gloopy, almost jam-like, and so uh it's hard to work with in a drink without shaking with the other ingredients. My workaround, my mama told me you better work around. Did she also tell you that, Nastasia?
+
+[22:00] She told me I have to shop around. Oh, really? How did that work out? You know. Yeah.
+
+[22:08] My workaround was a whip shake to emulsify without adding too much dilution to the drink. But this has gotten me thinking, what could I do with a product that has a high sugar content and contains pectin to make it more workable in a cocktail without adding water into the uh into the situation? A few online resources suggest that pectin can lose its gel-making abilities after being exposed to high temperature. That's not ever been my experience. In fact, what do you do to jelly to make it set?
+
+[22:34] Anyone? Anyone? You boil it and then you chill it to set it, right? I mean, you you don't just blend fruit with sugar and it becomes jelly. Jelly!
+
+[22:48] Uh, that's by the way, from uh that's Rudolph. Who wants a water gun that shoots jelly? Um That's not Rudolph. That's Rudolph. That's not the character.
+
+[23:00] No, it's the land of misfit toys. It's the water gun that shoots jelly. He's friends with uh that little doll that no one knows why no one wants her. Have you ever figured out why no one wants her? Uh Jen had a theory.
+
+[23:10] Because it cried, I think. But lots of dolls cry and people want them. That's like one of the main things dolls do is that they're gonna see. Right? No one wants to play with a Peter in the box.
+
+[23:21] We know that. No child wants to play with a Charlie in the box. That one, he he's basically like King Moon Racer's second in command. You have like the the cowboy that rides the ostrich, right? But what's wrong with the train with square wheels?
+
+[23:37] Train with square wheels. Although I think it's just the tender car that has square wheels, right? Doesn't the train itself have round wheels? The engine itself. Maybe they could just lose the tender car.
+
+[23:48] You know what I mean? Let me find the doll's issue. Go ahead. Yeah, you figure out the doll's issue, and uh what does he say again when uh when when they think that Santa's not coming and and is he like because now I have my movies confused. Now I have Charlie in the box saying skunked again.
+
+[24:08] Anyway. By the way. So we have to make it up what's wrong with her? Leaving many classics wondering why she was a misfit due to her normal-looking appearance. So she's just there to make all little girls feel bad about themselves.
+
+[24:27] Be like, what's wrong is on the inside. It doesn't even have to be visible, and there's still something wrong with you. Right? That's what it's there for? Oh my god.
+
+[24:37] So hardcore. Uh you know, first let me write the book, and then you and I together, we can write our well, okay. So the question is Dynastasia and I write our own separate. What's plural of thesis? These?
+
+[24:53] Come on, John, you're the ex-professor here. What is it? Is there a plural of thesis? I thesis. I can't be right now.
+
+[25:00] Let's see. We will each write a thesis. The choices are we each write a thesis on uh uh uh uh or I should say an exegesis of the story of Rudolph, right? And then we publish them in its own the uh like on their own in a chapter book format, or we could try to combine our thoughts and write a single thesis. What what are the feelings?
+
+[25:24] I think that you and I should someday write a book on all of the like the crazy things that we've done that people don't know about, like the eating the f the fruit at the place in California, and then I'll explain the lunch, like that. We've never talked about that? We have. But on the air, we've never talked about the bathroom aftermath? No, no, and like the Peter walking in on you, like all of we've talked about that a million times.
+
+[25:50] Um all of the things that we don't talk about, we should talk about, we should write in this book. All the things that we talk about when we're out with people and they're horrified, we should write in this book. That's all the things we ever talk about. Yes. Like the thing, the fact of the matter is is that like I I honestly don't understand, like, unless you're eating, like, why are any subjects really off limits when you're just having a conversation, right?
+
+[26:17] Like, what what are you supposed to talk about? The stuff that you always talk about? Am I supposed to sit with you and we'll be like, well, how about them match? Oh, the the the pri the eggs, the price went up and then it went back down again. I mean, what are you supposed to talk about?
+
+[26:29] You know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, seriously. Um, all right, we're back on the monin.
+
+[26:38] My work, now remember people, what we were talking about, maybe I should start doing this in the future. What we were talking about was Connor has a Yuzu puree and it's too thick to mix in and was having problems with the pectin. Then uh Connor said, you know, uh that it's jelly-like, and that we talked about boiling, and that's what sent us into the t me into the tangent on Rudolph, which is how we got here. That's a a short recap of the last like five minutes. This is incredibly helpful for me.
+
+[27:07] Yeah, all right, all right, all right. Okay. Um so anyway, so Connor thinks that uh making a pectin lose its gel by overheating seems counterintuitive. Now, what they probably mean uh that uh pectin can lose its strength if if it's heated too long, is that um pectin, like pectin is interesting among hydrocolloids in that it requires a certain amount of acid to set properly, right? Especially native uh pectin and fruits.
+
+[27:33] However, in acidic conditions, when you boil them too long, the acid actually can break apart a polypeptide, sorry, a polysaccharide, right? Because it's pectin's a polysaccharide. It can break the, it can hydrolyze the polysaccharide, thereby destroying its gelling ability. Because one of the things that, aside from the variety that a hydrocolloid is the actual chain length of the polymer, which can be different. So, like two different, uh, two different pectins can have two different chain lengths, right?
+
+[28:02] And uh two different gelatins can have two different chain lengths, even though that's not a saccharide, that's a uh polypeptide. Um, and the shorter the chain length, the the less something has gelling ability. So if you boil it for a long time in the presence of a lot of acid, then the acid will start to hydrolyze, break apart the pectin, and it will lose its gelling ability. That's probably what they're talking about, but you'd have to cook it a good long time, anyways. Um what I would do if I were you uh is I would just buy some enzymes, some um some pectinase enzyme and hit it and see whether or not it might be a little too high in sugar for it to work, but it and it might be a little too high in acid, but you'll probably get some pectolytic uh activity in there and that will thin it out.
+
+[28:45] Another uh thing that we like to do with ingredients that are um unhelpful is to like say, okay, listen, uh I know that I'm gonna put a drink on the menu with this yuzu puree, and it also contains this other liquid that doesn't cost a lot, and then I don't care that I'm don't like putting it only with oose with the yuzu, and then pre-dilute it a little bit. Now your your shelf life's gonna go down significantly, but your portability is gonna go way up. And so, you know, that's what we would we would do a lot of times. A third scenario that you can do in in terms of uh making it work in a drink that's going to be shaken, is you can buy dosing pumps. So speaking of monin, who made your puree, uh at the bar we would have milk syrup and cream syrup, and those things are very hard to jigger.
+
+[29:32] They don't mix very well. Uh, and so what we would do is we would put them into dosimetric pumps and dose them directly into the shaker, and it made our life uh easy. Is that a good enough uh answer there, Anastasia or no? My name is Sarah Kim and I'm from Austin, Texas. I'm a Cheeselandian because while life is great, cheese makes it better.
+
+[29:54] Wisconsin cheese has proven time and time again to be a delicious expression of craft, hard work, and tradition. As a Cheeselandian, I'm able to share a good experience with fellow cheese and food lovers nationwide, as well as connect with cheese producers and cheesemongers, taking my love of cheese to another level. I invite you to join Cheeslandia because during these difficult times, it has been even more important to take it easy and get cheesy. The Cheeselandia community and events have been the glue helping to keep us together and connected. And I would love it if you would join me.
+
+[30:25] And let's face it, if you hear the word cheese and get a little hungry, then you found a place you can call home. To find out more about Cheeselandia, go to Cheeselandia.com. Uh, from Max, my name is Maxim. I'm from Kazakhstan. Man, I really want to go there.
+
+[30:43] Like You always say that you should just go. When? First of all, like I almost thought I was gonna get to go once, right? But like what how am I gonna just go to Kazakhstan? Why uh when the pandemic is over, why don't you and Jen take a vacation to Kazakhstan instead of waiting for someone to pay for a trip for you for free?
+
+[31:00] You know what? Or I have I need a business reason to go. Here's another thing. What? Why do you need a business reason?
+
+[31:06] What do you mean why do I need a business reason I don't take vacations to randomly? We do like one a year. I don't think that would be like Jen, where are we gonna go? Kazakhstan. That'd be awesome.
+
+[31:16] I wanna go. But I have to also go at the right time of year and get a guide to take me up into the mountains, etc. etc. I wonder whether that guy we met uh at uh now forget it. Anyway, uh I learned about you uh I learned about you from a book by Adam Rogers, who wrote a book, what was his book called?
+
+[31:33] Proof, I think. He wrote a book about bar mixology. You were described as the best in the business, very kind. Uh can you give advice or literature to young bartenders? Um, so if you're gonna buy books, I mean, there's not that many books uh on kind of the style that I wrote about, right?
+
+[31:51] So obviously, get you get my book, that would help me. Um, or you know, uh, if you want like also some modern takes on things, more Morgenthaler's uh books, and then just get some of the classics, like you know, get uh, you know, Meehan's book, get uh Gary Regan's book, um, get uh, you know, get it. Actually, I have a bibliography in in at the end of my book that of books that I think are good for people to read when they're when they're starting. And then just go to a lot of bars. That's always the answer.
+
+[32:21] If you're interested in learning how to uh cook or learn how to um to make drinks, the first thing to do is to go have the food and the drinks of people who are doing very interesting things because it's impossible, not impossible, but it's very hard to come up, like it's very hard to create an internal metric of what's possible using only just your own skill because you're limited by yourself, right? So, you know, I always thought it was funny, and I think we've talked about this before, but I I've always thought it was funny, like uh, like it's American famous pizza places, uh, old school ones, and they don't ever eat anyone else's pizza. Why would I eat someone else's pizza? Their pizza sucks, my pizza's the best, or like burger places where they're like, I've never had the other person's burger, why would I have that? Their burger sucks, mine's the best, right?
+
+[33:12] And that works for a very specific kind of category where everyone says they like your stuff, so you feel like you don't need to change. But you know, New Yorkers who think that way about pizza have been completely lapped, right, by pizza knowledge. I mean, pizza's one of those things where growing up in the 70s and 80s, pizza sucked. Let's just be honest. Pizza sucked.
+
+[33:33] Like New York pizza was still better than pizza you could get elsewhere, but compared to a modern person's idea of pizza, it sucked, right? And people who are still thinking of pizza in terms of what was great pizza in the 80s, right? Like, I'm not trying to insult them, but like Sally's and Peppies in um New Haven, they make a delicious pizza, right? But they've been lapped mentally, right? Other people they should continue to do their thing.
+
+[34:00] I'm not saying they should ever change, but to say that they're the bee in all the end all because they don't go around and taste other people's pizza, right? Specifically. So I think what you need to do to make yourself better is to go and just eat and drink a lot. That's always the answer. Because uh, every time that I've thought I've known something and then have gone on taste excursions to taste other people's stuff, I've realized I don't know nearly as much as I think I did.
+
+[34:23] And that's the best way to learn. I don't know. What do you guys think? Yeah, that's good. It's like that guy in uh Japan.
+
+[34:31] Yeah, right. Yeah, bartender who's like came to the United States, was invited to the United States, and won't call him out, right? And um, famous. And doesn't drink very much, which is fair, but like was taken around all to cocktail bars here in the States, not even interested in seeing what people were doing. You know what I mean?
+
+[34:51] Not interested. I guess he thought maybe it would pollute his mentality of what's going on. But I think like, you know, the older you get, right? Now I'm 49, pretty soon gonna be 50. I think we might have to, because of the pandemic, Nastasia, let's postpone like our deadlines for happiness one year.
+
+[35:06] Are you accepting this or not? We have to do it on air. When was it supposed to be? Supposed to be this year. Supposed to be, well, not this year.
+
+[35:14] It was supposed to be 20, it was supposed to be 2021. We were pegging we were pegging it on my 50th birthday. Right that we were gonna get in stable, happy situations, but uh you wanna you want to push it a year? Do you want to just publicly go on record saying we're pushing it a year? Can we push it six months instead?
+
+[35:31] Pandemic's been going more than six months, and our business has been pushed more than six months back. Yes, so I'm only willing to go six months. What? Six months from your 50th. So like that's not even this year.
+
+[35:45] It has to be on my 50th. So it had to be six months from I don't know. My 50th is in March. Yes. I'm 50 years old in March.
+
+[35:52] So November 2020, right? Six months. There's no way. Like even if we're lucky. Even if we're lucky, we'll just be getting our new product online then.
+
+[36:02] I have faith. Well, that is heartening because usually you do not. I am very heartened by this. I'm not even being sarcastic. That's uh it's truly heartening, especially in light of what's happening to our business right now.
+
+[36:15] Um you want to get into that now since you brought it up and just get it over with? No, no, no, no, because I'll spool off. Like like you tell me when quickly, quickly. I'm gonna give you a time limit. No, no, no.
+
+[36:28] Can I ask a stupid question that's probably maybe inflammatory? There are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Remember that. Why is Amazon the only place that you can get a serious? He really liked it.
+
+[36:44] Um the um because we could sell it on our own, but the distribu Amazon has amazing distribution for all their own faults. And the biggest problem of doing something yourself is the logistics of distribution and shipping. By the way, are we doing that CNN thing, Nastasia or not? Rebecca's on it. Oh shit.
+
+[37:03] She's gonna work she's gonna she's gonna be showing it. Dave's a guest, though. So what? Oh my god, I didn't hear Freudian said the example. You definitely I did not curse.
+
+[37:17] There was a slip there. You definitely did. We'll review the tapes. We'll review the tapes. My mind did not curse.
+
+[37:25] My mouth maybe did, but I don't even understand. Thank God she said she doesn't listen to the show, so that's you know, it's okay. Yeah, but like the their true feelings. No, no, here's the thing. This is not has to do with Rebecca.
+
+[37:38] This has to do with any person I've ever dealt with whose job it is to protect a brand, right? Their job is to protect a brand. So they are inherently worried when someone goes out and there's a potential to damage the brand by, for instance, talking crap about Amazon on uh uh you know, something that someone from Amazon might watch, like CNN, right? And so like um when the the the PR person at the French Culinary Institute at the time, um, you know, when the uh Department of Health was um cracking down on sous vide packaging in in New York City, like I had just gone on, I had just written the curriculum for sous vide um cooking at the French Culinary Institute. You know, I was 30 something, I was raring to go.
+
+[38:27] I was like, you know, let's do this. I was like, we could uh I pitched, I was like, listen, we have an opportunity here at the French Culinary Institute. And at the time, no one was teaching low temperature sous vide cooking. No one, no one understood it, no one understand stood the rules. I had just like I had been working a lot with Wiley, who was, you know, one of the foremost people using uh sous vide at WD50 at the time.
+
+[38:49] And like I had done all of the all of the research. I knew I knew more on the technical, on the technical aspects of it than anyone, right, at the time. From a cook's perspective, not from a science and process perspective, but from a cooking perspective. And I was like, listen, we can be the people who are the face of this. We can be the place where everyone goes for information.
+
+[39:13] Like, this is our chance. Like we can get everyone, we can be the people. We can be the voice. And the ability to be that voice doesn't come up very often in anything, right? And the PR person at the time was like, it's not an important part enough of our brand and it's too risky.
+
+[39:29] So no, you have to shut up. And I couldn't talk to the NY Times about it. I couldn't talk to anyone. They didn't even really allow me to talk to chefs anymore. And I had been on the phone almost constantly, like eight hours a day, talking to chefs, calling, asking me questions about what was going to happen because I could talk because we didn't use sous vide in the restaurant downstairs at the French culinary.
+
+[39:51] Because we didn't use it, I was thoroughly free to talk to the board of health because the Department of Health, because it didn't matter. Like, like I could ask them questions and they wouldn't be like, why are you doing that? And then come and inspect us because we weren't doing it. You know what I mean? We legitimately weren't.
+
+[40:09] And so like I was in this very, very privileged position, and they said no. And maybe it was a good PR reason, maybe it wasn't. And like time and time again, like when we were at Momofuku, uh, well, when we were associated more with Momofuku, like the PR like is in the job of not taking big risks like that. And for you know, me, especially when you're younger, your job is to take risks. So that's why that reaction, does that make sense, Nastasia or no?
+
+[40:36] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just like, you know, but anyway, Amazon is screwing us hard. Oh, yeah, real hard.
+
+[40:45] Real hard, real hard. Um, so I mean, it's just it's honestly, well, I don't know why we should have done it at the end. It's too long, too long to get into, but like we went with Amazon solo, Matt, because there are parts of Amazon that are incredibly enticing, right? Because they act, they act as not your customer support from a standpoint of like what John does, but they act as um when Nastasia says distributions, not just distribution like from warehouse to warehouse, but like their fulfillment is amazing, their ability to get the stuff out to the customers, to handle returns seamlessly, to make you seem cool on that standpoint, is kind of unparalleled. Because Amazon is truly or was until the pandemic, it truly great at customer service, right?
+
+[41:38] The problem is that for as good as they are on the customer side, they can be as bad on on our side because uh you know, computers will make decisions and uh you you can't get in touch with a human being, like you have zero meaning to them. Like, even if you're doing several millions of dollars of business with them a year, you're still relatively meaningless. But for us, especially, you know, we're a very small manufacturer, and so our margins on our products, even though people think they're expensive, are low, right? Because we're not producing enough product to get really good rates on making stuff, and so in order to sell things at a reasonable price, we can't sell at a Williams Sonoma. We can't sell at a at a bunch of places.
+
+[42:23] And because it's just Nastasia and myself, or was until John came on board. No, you know, we had Matt, but I'm saying, you know, John Matt was part-time, John's full-time. But um, you know, we just don't have the facilities to deal with like 20 different accounts or to sell to mom and pop stores. And so Amazon, because they take a relatively low percentage, like so the you know, the cost of doing business on Amazon is what, between 18 and 20%, Nastasia? Yeah, like 16.
+
+[42:49] Yeah. I mean, it depends on the item and and all of that and whether they actually pay you, right? It's very enticing to use them, but then as we've discovered, like one like one blip can ruin the whole business. And we've been blipped now like three times, aside from the fact that they owe us hundreds of thousands of dollars and never pay us on time, and it's caused us to be late and to like have to take loans and all of this other stuff. Yes, we have to take out loans to subsidize.
+
+[43:18] Yeah, to subsidize Jeff Bezos, and that is a true freaking story. We, Booker and Dax, have to take out loans to subsidize Amazon for real, right? Um he's strapped for cash. He is, man. He needs that he needs that first personal trillion, baby.
+
+[43:37] Everyone's got something to work towards. So listen. Um, but like they can blip you without even caring or knowing. Like the time when a computer, we we we switched uh a word right before Black Friday. We switched a word in the description and of the Sears all, and literally switching that word caused a computer to say, danger, danger, danger.
+
+[43:59] And they turned off our listing. Like two, like three minutes before we were supposed to have our biggest sale of our lives, right? Yeah. Um that cost us many, many, many thousands of dollars and heartache because then we had to fulfill all those things. They had uh uh another where their computer just didn't uh update right, they didn't place an order, and Sears alls were out of stock for three months.
+
+[44:25] Another blip again, they don't care. Um they had in this latest one, someone complained that they they didn't read the instructions, and they complained that they thought it was quote unquote almost unsafe. Not even unsafe, almost unsafe. Uh which which it's not, it's an inert hunk of metal. And so then someone, and literally, it's like you know how Dick Cheney used to be in an undisclosed location in in a bunker, just like chilling in a bunker, shooting his friends in the face, and no one knew where he was.
+
+[44:53] Like that's how Amazon does all of their like teams. So Amazon will hire a team, and it's harder to find an Amazon team than it is to find SEAL team six. You know what I'm saying? Like they are burrowed like deep underground or like burrowed deep into something like a tick, like a tick ready to pop. Only you can't find it.
+
+[45:15] They don't have they they have maybe an email that'll get to them. There's no telephones, no names, and they fire everyone every week. So there's no continuity, there's nothing. And so someone on one of these embedded Amazon tick teams, and they don't even tell you what country they're in, right? Uh, and you know, they could be anywhere.
+
+[45:33] The literally the person could be next door to you, or they could be uh, you know, in Kazakhstan somewhere. It doesn't matter. Who knows? And they said that we needed to get certified. And here's the funny part.
+
+[45:46] It's like asking for a space pilot's license, right? It's almost like, hey, you flew in space, you need a space pilot's license. We're like, well, there's no rules in space, so we don't have a space pilot's license because a space pilot's license doesn't exist. I can write you one, and they're like, no, it has to be certified by NASA. And you're like, but NASA's not going to certify my space pilot's license because there's no such thing as space pilots' licenses, and NASA's not in the business of certifying things that don't exist.
+
+[46:16] This is fundamentally what they're asking us to do. And so we're still in the throes of this right now, right, Nastasia? And meanwhile, all the knockoffs are selling, which I believe I know it sounds like a conspiracy thing, but I believe that those knockoffs are probably being manufactured by Amazon, which would really like what would you do, Dave, if that came out that that was what would you do? What would you do? I mean, that it that has been their business.
+
+[46:41] I know what I would do. I know what I would do. I know what I would do. What would you do? Nothing.
+
+[46:48] Because I have no power in this situation. This is what it's like to have no idea. No, I think we'd have to take it public and go on the news. So oh yay. Here's here's the thing.
+
+[46:57] Here's the thing. Someone's like, someone's like, hey, did you realize that someday you're gonna die? What are you gonna do about it? Answer nothing, right? Yeah, I could wipe creams all over my face and like try to only eat antioxidants.
+
+[47:09] I'm still gonna die, right? Like that it's the same thing with Amazon. If Amazon wants to shaft you, they are going to. I don't know. I think we we would need to take it on all the news, all the news.
+
+[47:19] Oh, okay. Crusading. I I like crusading Nastasia. That's one of my more favorite Nastasias, but uh uh, you know, I don't I don't, you know, uh you and I are good when we're real mad. Nastasia's only time that Nastasia actually only reason she still works with me is my ability I I'm like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm not.
+
+[47:41] And then she likes to get me to that point where I'm not. You also you know the Dave and I switch off on who's gonna be angry in this situation. Or as Nastasia puts it, who's gonna be peshy. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[47:52] Who Nastasia, what what's been in your most successful crusade? God, I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to think about that. All right.
+
+[48:02] We'll we'll we'll tackle that in 2021. I know what it is, but I can't we can't talk about that on there. Okay. All right. Uh do some more questions.
+
+[48:12] Uh Steve Young wrote in, Hey, had a very successful Thanksgiving where I made 32 takeout dinners my friends picked up from my porch. The main dish was six ounce chunks of turkey with chicken uh thigh skins. I had meat glued on and then fried. It's a good call. Uh by the way, also a good call.
+
+[48:27] Uh you can buy boxes of chicken skins and they're pretty beat up. But if you uh meat glue chicken skin to skirt steak and then uh fry the skirt steak, that is delicious. Like that is a chicken fried steak to be reckoned with for sure. That's one of the things we used to do at the FCI, and I always love that. Uh you just gotta make sure to let it dry out because um, you know, you want the skin to be be crispy.
+
+[48:52] Um we also used to fry at a really high temperature. Like part of the issue, you don't want to overcook the skirt steak too much, so you want to fry at a really high temperature. And if you're gonna batter it, which I which is cool, right? To batter it, we didn't use to batter it, but if you're gonna do it battered, so it's like battered chicken skins, um, because you are going you want it to fry quickly because the skirt steak is thin. I would I've been researching a lot about um uh uh battering, and I realized that the the fried chicken batter that I use that I have used for the past 25 years or so, uh, which you can get the recipe, just look uh food and wine, look up uh Dave Arnold fried chicken, food and wine, my recipe is there, at least my recipe as of 20 years ago, um, is relatively unusual.
+
+[49:33] I I've read in the past week, maybe 90 fried chicken recipes, and very a low percentage of them use a dry, use a wet, dry uh like uh breader breading, flour breading situation with leavening in the wet, very rare. And I use both two leavening, not very rare, but relatively rare. I use two leavenings. I use uh powder, but I also use soda, and uh, it's because the the liquid is buttermilk. Now, if you're using an acidic dip uh before your breading, a lot of people maintain the acidity, don't neutralize it with soda.
+
+[50:10] So if you look at like a lot of the dips that are being used in the south, like they'll have hot sauce in them with vinegar, or they'll have some form of acid, even with buttermilk, and they're not neutralizing it with soda like you would for a pancake. And I think after reading a lot of recipes, that the reason is is because if you leave the batter relatively acidic, it won't brown very quickly. And what that means is if you're gonna cook something like a big piece of chicken, like breast meat or something like this, you're gonna cook it for a long time. If you cook my recipe for a long time, it gets very dark because it's relatively uh neutral. Um, if you keep your batter acidic, it will cook relatively uh it will take a long time for it to turn brown.
+
+[50:52] So just think about that when you're frying. The smaller the pieces, the faster you want them to get brown. Then make sure you neutralize with soda if you're using something acidic like buttermilk. Long way to go around. But anyway, I would batter it.
+
+[51:04] I would use the recipe that I use for mine because I like still like that one, even though I'm doing and but maybe I'll have more information later when I come up with my you know, fry coating 10 ways situation that I'm working on for the book, but that's my two cents there. But that wasn't even your question, Steve. Uh that got me thinking. Can I make a good meat glued turduckin? Uh instead of stuffing between the layers, I was thinking of gluing the three meats together uh layered in stacks, uh six ounces for each serving with chicken skins glued to the outside.
+
+[51:33] The problem is I'm assuming you can't glue the meats after cooking them. Is that correct? If I have to glue them together before cooking, is there a single ideal temperature to cook them to? What are your thoughts? Steve from LA, aka Kompache.
+
+[51:45] Fish Poet. Um, which we're putting a new newsletter in his. Yeah, when's that coming out, Dave? Did you put your information in? How's that coming out?
+
+[51:53] I I don't know, but listen, that's not the question. The question is he has he mutes himself because his dog is barking like a weasel. Listen. Um Nastasia, but has the poem been unseated? It was unseated last in last uh month's newsletter.
+
+[52:10] I don't think it's been unseated, but there was a new poem. So are we going back to Kompache or can like it? Yes, we are going back to Kompachi because we didn't get a new submission. Has Kampachi been unseated? Uh that's uh how that's the circle been unbroken, but with Kompache and Unseated.
+
+[52:27] Um Remember that show named That Too, Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah. No. Uh I used to love that show.
+
+[52:35] I would be so bad at that. You know what show Dave Dave and I would be good at? Remember, Dave? It's called Well, any one of those, any one of those things where you have to know something about the other person, like any one of those, like newlyweds or any one of those other shows. Any show it's required that you know something about the other person.
+
+[52:50] Yeah, we would we would if only someone would come up with a show like that again with lots and lots of money. That's how we could bring our business back. But like we wanted to do one that wasn't for, yeah, it wasn't for people that like not married, like the people that have worked together a long time. We wanted to have a game show that was like co-workers. And like the coworkers, these idiots have been working together for like you know, 11 years, and so you put them next to each other and see like, you know, see what you get out of it.
+
+[53:15] You know what I mean? We would win. We would kill. Kill. They need a newlyweds game for co-workers.
+
+[53:20] Yeah. Yeah. That does sound like a promising idea. Right? That would bring our business back.
+
+[53:26] Just call us in for the development meetings, give us a producer title, pay us five bucks and we'll be on our way. That's how much we're gonna do that. And you want to be on the contestants on the pilot episode. I don't think you can do both. I'd rather be a contestant because you know they're not gonna pay us.
+
+[53:39] They're not gonna pay you when you're a contestant either. We're gonna win. The winner gets a million dollars. There you go. You you know that they would ask some random question at the end that like, because like we would know all sorts of random things.
+
+[53:52] Like they would be like, how much would it cost for you to eat your own foot? Nastasia's like, Dave will do it for free. And I'm like, you know what I mean? Like we get all that stuff right, but then they would ask some question that like size shoe does Dave wear. I've never no idea.
+
+[54:04] Or like they would any sort of normal question, like uh, you know, what brand of you know, what brands of clothing the does Nastasia think of clothing? What's clothing? What the hell? What? You know what I mean?
+
+[54:14] And then, like, you know, the stuff that normal people talk about anyway. So that's why we would lose, because they would ask all the rando stuff early, and we would make it to the end, and then they would ask something that every other human being would know, and I would have no idea. Either I wouldn't eat the channel. We should get to know those those simple ones so that we can win this theoretical show. Yeah.
+
+[54:33] All right. So back to back to the turduccin. So uh at the FCI, we used to do uh turduckin all the time. And I was kind of happy with it, but here's the problem with low temperature traducking. Uh, first of all, the classic turduccin is like it's arranged all wrong.
+
+[54:48] It's obviously gonna get overcooked, it's clearly problematic. We used to do uh ballotines, big ballotines. And what we did, we added a fourth meat, we put squab in the middle, and then but uh uh after the squab, we put uh duck, right? So basically something that wants to be cooked to roughly 54, 55 degrees uh Celsius, then something that wants to be cooked to roughly 57 degrees Celsius, and we would like sheet them and then layer them and roll them like a sushi roll, right? And then um then we put a layer of sausage because sausage can be considered cooked.
+
+[55:24] Uh, the the the you know, it would be okay down to around 60. So there's very little overlap where you're wickedly overcooking the duck, but you know, not allowing the sausage to get cooked. So we put our sausage layer there, slash stuffing, right? Then the next layer on the outside was uh chicken, and then I believe a layer of turkey, uh, and then skin, all meat glued in a layer rolled into a big ballotine, and then we threw it into a 66 degree bath, right? Which is you know a degree higher than really you want the turkey to be, but you're you're you're pushing, that's okay, actually.
+
+[56:02] You're pushing the temperature through, and this is one of the very few times we used a thermometer, we shook the thermometer straight down the center of the ballotine, which was all in plastic wrap. Uh it's ballotine, actually, though, right? Right, John? It's teen, not tan. Yeah.
+
+[56:17] Say it for me with the accent. Oh, yeah, yeah. How you say how how you say meat tube? Um it the you put the thermometer in. Please, please go into that.
+
+[56:27] Like, please in 2021. Just do just do that. Just randomly, the how you say. How you say? You say uh meat tube.
+
+[56:35] Anyway, so like the thermometer all the way through the uh tube, the meat thermometer through it, and then we pulled it when the squab got up to like 54, and then there was a little bit of a carry. Uh, and then you cool it and then you fry it. Now the it technically was really good. The problem is the pieces were really, really big. Remember, Anastasia?
+
+[56:55] Yeah. And so the pieces were a little too big. I would go thinner if you could. And also, it's just like a lot of you it turns out that people just like with rib, and if I have a second, I could talk about like uh the way that I did the rib, I did a like a four-step low temperature cooking of my uh rib roast this year. Um it's just a lot of perfectly cooked meat, and people don't really actually want a lot of perfectly cooked meat, they want some overcook on the outside, which is why nowadays when I do large party trick things, typically I'll low temp cooking through.
+
+[57:30] Yes. Uh there are no parties. I thought you were optimistic this year, Stas. Right now there are no parties. Go ahead.
+
+[57:36] So you cook it all the way through, and then you do a roast just for a long sh much shorter period of time to get that nice overcooked stuff on the outside because everyone actually loves those high temperature overcooked pieces around the edges as long as they're not dry. Would you guys agree with that? Yes. I have to go. It's not even uh it's not even uh the actual minute yet.
+
+[58:02] All right. I'm just saying. Also, Dave, imagine if we were on how much what crazy fight we would get into on that show, that newlywed show if we one of us got it. Co-work if one of us got it wrong and we thought the other there would be so much curse, it would be a spectacle. First of all, like it would need to be like one of those voting off the island situations where they just put us in in a in a padded room afterwards and film the debrief.
+
+[58:31] You know what I mean? Just going on and on. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There would have to be like so many layers of like soundproofing, otherwise, like they wouldn't be able to shoot within like a five mile radius of us.
+
+[58:43] You know what I mean? Especially if it was the million dollar and and you were sure I knew it, or I was sure you knew it. Oh my god. They would have to take all weapons away from you because I'm I'm fine with the number of buttholes I have right now. I don't need another butthole.
+
+[58:58] You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Uh oh, so but we didn't hear this before Nastasia's about to bow out. I'm gonna try to hit two or three more questions if it's okay with Matt after she bows out. Yeah.
+
+[59:09] Um, what do you have on Christmas stuff? You're asking me? I am. Uh my dad cooked a ribeye. And how was it?
+
+[59:18] It was good. It was really good. Super good. Um on the new grill I got him. Uh oh, wait, cooked it outside.
+
+[59:23] Uh yeah. Huh. And uh, how long did it take on the grill? I did not pay attention. Were you getting Ajita over running out of propane?
+
+[59:32] No. No, it was a new tank. And the sell it at the gas stations here. They don't sell it at the home depots. Because Home Depot is hoarding.
+
+[59:41] Whenever I go to like, you know, well, back when I was allowed to go to my parents' house, like it's always like, do you have enough propane to do what you're doing? And then because they were always also worried about it, they would turn the grill on too late and then turn it off too quickly. Do you know what I'm talking about? Mm-hmm. It's like you want that sucker, like, like my mom's like, but how hot do you want it?
+
+[1:00:00] Like on medium? I'm like, Ma, as high as it'll go. They're like, but but I'm like, Ma, as high as it will go. You know what I mean? And then like I want it to go, but then you know, you need infinite propane all the time.
+
+[1:00:10] I don't know. They have city gas. I don't know why they don't just plumb it. Does your dad have city gas? I don't know, but I didn't even know that was an option.
+
+[1:00:18] And this is his first propane grill, so he wasn't, he was like, wait, what? So I don't I don't know. I don't know. So did he not trust it? Did he still have a sack of charcoal next to it?
+
+[1:00:28] Yeah, no. I love that. Well, I love that. It's like, oh, it's a nice gift, honey, but I'm gonna keep my sack of charcoal here just in case. Yeah, my mom is keeping the charcoal grill for no good reason.
+
+[1:00:43] Yeah. Yeah, well, that's what you do. You know what I mean? That's especially like they live in a house. They can afford to, right?
+
+[1:00:49] It's not like they you know, they're in an apartment, yeah. Yeah. And uh did you well, I guess on a grill, was the did he do it in a pan on the grill so he was able to catch the drippings? And was there a water pan underneath so that it didn't scorch the uh drippings and cause a fire? Not the pan.
+
+[1:01:04] Oh, there is a built-in pan underneath, but it was cooked in a pan, yes. Yeah, on the ground and it tasted good and there was no fire. That's good. Yes. What side what sides did you have?
+
+[1:01:14] Um mashed potatoes and Brussels sprouts. Okay, so Wiley, I was with uh we we'd quarantined beforehand, gotten all tested, and then got, you know, uh Jen's sisters and my family as we were all in one one building, which was my test, was it? Was it the accurate one or the non-accurate one? Uh well, I've had COVID, so I just I I was uh I allowed myself to just have the rapid. Uh Jen got the PCR and she also came back negative, and Jen and I haven't been seeing anyone, and then we made Dax take it twice.
+
+[1:01:50] We had him do the rapid twice. Uh like once, then waited two days, took it again, and then and then went because he's the only one in the family that has never tested positive for COVID. Yeah, who knows? So, anyways, so we were together and Wiley made this delicious thing, which I had never had before, and maybe it's just because I'm a moron that I haven't had before, but see whether you guys have had it. So, Wiley was making gnocchi, but not like Italian gnocchi.
+
+[1:02:18] He was, well, I mean, not what I classically think of, not potato gnocchi. He was he just made a shoe pastry. So, for those of you that don't shoe spelled like the French word for cabbage, right? Is normally what you make those little puffs out of or like gougers. They're like they're real eggy, and you you you you make like a uh a hot you put hot water in to make the dough, like boiling water in to make the dough, then you add the eggs and the and uh and they they puff up.
+
+[1:02:42] Um it's a shoe pastry, it's a thing. Uh was that accurate description of it, you think, John? I think it's accurate. I didn't look up the recipe, but I haven't made it in years. But he made it he made a shoe pastry, put it into a piping bag, and this is a a Wiley, a Wiley thing.
+
+[1:02:56] He says he got it from somewhere, but it was pretty cool. He bought uh monofilament and tied the monofilament across his boiling pot in a line, right? And then just stood there with the pastry bag and went with the fishing line and was like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. So he didn't have to have a knife or anything. He didn't have to one-hand it, and then with a knife go chakada chakra chackada into yeah, smart.
+
+[1:03:14] And so he's there going with the shoe pastry into the thing. And when the shoe pastry boils, it still gets that hollow kind of shoe pastry center. It's still real light and shoe pastry like. Then he like pulled it out and then sauteed them in a pan to get kind of a little bit of a crisp, buttery crispness on the outside, like you would get in a shoe pastry. And I have to say, they were freaking delicious.
+
+[1:03:43] Have any of you had anything like this before? I don't think so. Sounds good though, right? Yes. Yeah, Wiley knows his uh Wiley knows his like uh weird uses of uh old school French stuff.
+
+[1:03:55] Also, Dave, on your Instagram post with Wiley, who infiltrated it and made you feel awful. She uh Claire. Claire, Claire infiltrated what? Claire gets on sit, likes the thing. I'm like, oh nice, okay, great.
+
+[1:04:12] And then she goes through this story where she cooked a filet mignon, don't get me started. And then she says that she asked Nastasia how to do it, and you had given her some advice, and then she says, Well, I didn't follow any of that advice. Gives me the indication that she's horribly mutilated it, but without any sort of real data, and then asked me, and I was like, I don't know what the what do you want me to do with this information? I have no idea what the heck you want me to do with this information. Like, how did it taste?
+
+[1:04:40] And then it gets worse from there. She starts saying how she like sliced it thin and fried it in pans and like and like cooked it forever and threw it into a warming oven and just like had a few. Anything you can do with meat, she did like any any way you could cook meat, she did it to this poor filet mignon. And then like oven to pan to the microwave to like it's a dehydrator yeah like any horrible thing that you could do because basically everybody filet mignon has no texture so as soon as you cook it you've ruined it right this is why you just want it to be like nice and seared on the outside and basically you know blue warm on the inside would you guys agree with this agree yeah because it's got no it's got no uh if if you cook it at at all too high it goes fibroy this is why I don't really like a lot of low temp on filet unless it's just barely up and then I still anytime you cook it longer than 45 minutes you've really kind of hosed it an hour max right because it starts getting fibery anyway so she says this long sort of thing and I'm just like and so I just wrote you're making my palm sweaty and giving me agida and it signed off and then like cooking issues crew just started hammering her calling her calling her the low quality and and she threw Nastasia under the bus basically saying that Nastasia was her quote unquote meat coach right and then thereby making kind of what happened to Stasia's fault and people were like yo yo yo if someone tells you to do something and then you don't do it you can't you don't get to you you can't even call them out at all. You're like Nastasia's name should not have even been mentioned in this coral Leo.
+
+[1:06:17] You know what I mean that's true. No I told her to cook it less time lower temperature because I knew she would double that so and she did. And she even more than double it she like she's like uh can I also deep fry it can I also like put it into a solar oven? Can I like can I put it at the uh you know at the focal point of like uh you know a military radar set so that I like microwave it with eight billion watts, like you know, like which is how the microwave was invented, by the way, by the good folks at Raytheon. Um I had Claire Pegd as more of like a vegan juice cleanse kind of person.
+
+[1:06:52] Well, that's when she's in Mexico. No, she's in South Carolina right now. I really wish that she was still on her regular juice cleanse, which is Chardonnay. Me too. I liked old Chardonnay Claire.
+
+[1:07:04] I mean, that's a juice. Kendall Jackson Chardonnay. I only have Kendall Jackson juice on my juice cleanse. Yeah, that's the classic. That's the class.
+
+[1:07:15] That that's the Claire kids go for. You met her as a camp counselor, right? Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. And you guys she was always on Chardonnay as a camp counselor.
+
+[1:07:27] Nice, nice. Well, yeah, I'm sure you got yeah. She it wasn't like uh heavily oaked California stuff though, right? Were you steel tank people back in the day? What were you doing?
+
+[1:07:36] Oh, I don't remember what it was whatever crap, like Swiss crap table, Chardonnay, you know. Yeah, whatever the equivalent is. Never been to Switzerland, flown over it several times. Looks cool. You could go on vacation.
+
+[1:07:47] Okay, I'm signing off. All right. Uh happy new year. Happy New Year. Yeah, we'll talk to everybody next week, right?
+
+[1:07:55] Uh yeah, uh well. What day is it? What what day of the what what day of the month is it next week? Random, whatever. Yeah, I'll be good.
+
+[1:08:03] Yeah, we're good. Yeah. Okay. Bye. All right, but all right, I'm gonna Matt, you okay if I answer a couple more questions real quick?
+
+[1:08:09] Yeah, like two more. All right. From Cal Youngblood via email. Uh I've done and and this is perfect because it's a carbonation question. And as you guys know, if you ask a carbonation question when Nastasia is on, it's problems.
+
+[1:08:24] Um I've done carbonation before with uh metal carbonation camp and two-liter uh caps and two-liter bottles, uh, but I found uh a carbonation stone, which I've never heard of before, and I can't remember if you've gone over it now. The carbonation stone has 0.5 micron holes, and they say it produces a very fine bubbles. Uh would these stones produce carbonated water with smaller bubbles than you can with the carbonating cap, or would uh the water be exactly the same? Um it would be exactly the same. Like the fine bubbles is just to increase the surface area and the number of bubbles that are diffusing into uh into the liquid.
+
+[1:08:58] Once the liquid is done, it has no memory of how it was carbonated. The only thing it remembers is how much gas is in there and if there are other dissolved gases. So good carbonation is going to be when you get rid of other dissolved gases and when you get enough stuff in. I find it difficult to get a good carbonation with those stones. Um there are machines that will um like circulate over one of those stones and get decent carbonation in water, not it not in cocktails.
+
+[1:09:28] They but again I I've never a huge fan, because then also you eventually you need to you clean them and whatnot. Bubble size for a specific liquid is dependent on the what's in it, the the products that are in it. So, like for instance, in wines, like the autolized yeast and things like that can affect bubble size, sugar affects bubble size, salt affects bubble size, um, ions like minerals affect bubble size. Um alcohol content obviously affects bubble size and bubble uh bubble uh mouthfeel. In water, in in specifically in unsugared in mineral waters, the two main things that are gonna determine three main things are uh other dissolved gases.
+
+[1:10:08] So other dissolved gases, when you uncrack them, will produce lots of small bubbles. That's the nitrogen kind of trick, right? But will produce way lower overall carbonation. Um and salts, um, you know, uh mineral dissolved minerals will produce a smaller perceived bubble for a in my experience. I I haven't looked it up scientifically, but in my experience, will produce a smaller perceived bubble size um for a given level of CO2.
+
+[1:10:36] So less CO2 uh means less less carbonation and smaller bubbles, uh, higher um salts, smaller uh bubbles, and I think less perceived carbonation and um other dissolved gases in it when you uncrack them will cause that because the the they will pop out of solution like that. Umastasia and cooking issues. Nastasia might have waited on this. Greetings from Scotland. I have a question about pigs and blankets.
+
+[1:11:05] I should preface this by saying that this relates to the United Kingdom version of pigs in a blanket, which is bacon wrapped around thin or very small pork sausages such as chipolatas or cocktail sausages, uh, and then usually cooked in an oven. Uh the Wikipedia suggests that a US version is quite different. Uh hot dogs. And also there's the variant pigs in a blanket can be, if you used to go to IHOP back in the day, is a pancake wrapped around a sausage. So I still think of IHOP when I think of pigs in a blanket.
+
+[1:11:31] Uh Matt, you're a vegetarian, but you didn't used to be. And John, you've spent time both in Europe and the U.S. What are your pigs in a blanket? What are you what what are you what do you think? Uh wrapped in puff pastry.
+
+[1:11:42] Okay, so that's your pig in a blanket. So, like the cocktail party classic small sausage wrapped in puff pastry. Do you uh are are are you guys thinking it's a square that's wrapped over so it looks like uh it'll so it looks like it's been wrapped in a napkin or like the round all the way around where it looks like it's actually in a blanket? I guess round all the way around. Yeah.
+
+[1:12:05] Yeah, although I think you see more often the one where it's a square folded corner to corner, like a napkin around a whatever. Um the Wikipedia suggests the US version is quite different. Hot dogs wrapped in croissant pastry sounds good, but not relevant to this question. With that reference in mind, a friend of mine commented this week pigs in a blanket, i.e., bacon wrapped around sausage, are wasteful, overrated, and disgusting. Um wrapping bacon around a sausage means neither component cooks correctly.
+
+[1:12:33] I agree with this. I like sausage and I like bacon, but I don't like pigs in a blanket. This may partly be down to the fact that when I've eaten them, they've been pre-made supermarket snacks produced with low quality ingredients. That said, it does seem inevitable that bacon on the outside would be overdone and hard by the time the sausage is cooked through. I think it's actually kind of the opposite problem.
+
+[1:12:52] I would think that you wouldn't crisp up the bacon sufficiently for most people by the you know, without overcooking the sausage. What do you what do you guys think? I agree. I think it's like bacon wrapped scallop, great idea, but it never gets executed properly because the bacon never cooks if you cook the bacon properly, then the scallops are hammered. Do you know what's good if you like water chestnosos?
+
+[1:13:12] Bacon wrapped water chestnuts. You ever had those? I have not. Yeah, good. Very 70s.
+
+[1:13:17] The problem with you guys is you weren't alive in the 70s. Uh when when that was a thing. Canned water chestnuts, bacon, and I think a third component. I forget what they were called, but there was a toothpick through them, and you would eat them. That's what you used to do.
+
+[1:13:30] So like they would come like in a chafing dish with the toothpick, water chestnut bacon, some third component I'm forgetting, and then you would eat them. That's what you would do with them. Um I think your problem is that uh they're not meant to be high quality in the sense of high quality. The best version of this I used to have was at a uh like a lunch counter called the Yankee Doodle, which was in it went out of business maybe three years or four years ago, but it was a staple for like eighty years in New Haven. And uh their version of pig in a blanket was, and this is the way it should should be done, I think, was a standard U.S.
+
+[1:14:05] hot dog, right? Wrapped with a thin, standard garbage lunch counter bacon. And the reason this is important is because the thin bacon is going to cook relatively quickly, right? And there is no opportunity for it to be dry because there is no center meat. It is simply the like crust of a bacon and the fat keeps it lubricated because there's no sort of like large amount of meat to get uh dry.
+
+[1:14:29] Is this making sense? Especially to the meat eaters here, what I'm saying? Yeah. Then it was cooked on, rolled on a griddle or perhaps fried, I can't remember, right? Uh until it was just done and the hot dog, you know, was fine and the bacon was perfect, it was very thin.
+
+[1:14:45] It was then put on, and talking about gilding the lily in the best of ways, a split buttered toasted hot dog bun. And it was good. Was it the the best expression of bacon? Absolutely not. Was is it the best expression of sausage?
+
+[1:15:04] Clearly not, right? Uh I mean, it's pretty dang good as a hot dog bun goes. But it's like, uh, but like it was a decent combination of low-quality lunch counter bacon and low-quality American hot dogs. That makes that make sense? And it was enjoyable to eat.
+
+[1:15:21] Um, all right. Uh I still haven't gotten through even a chunk of these, these questions yet, John. I feel like we're gonna have to next week go over even more of these questions, right? Yeah, we gotta stop going off on tangents and just focus. No tangents, no Amazon talk?
+
+[1:15:43] No. Let's get these done. Yeah, there's a lot of things. John, let me ask you a question, uh, because I don't remember. Were there any things where someone had a question that they specifically needed to answer for New Year's?
+
+[1:15:54] No. Just we'll give you give you a couple seconds to make sure that no one has any New Year's questions that they need. No, one did come in right before the show. But that is not nope. I think we're good.
+
+[1:16:15] All right, people. Happy New Year, and we'll see you next year on Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:16:31] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:16:53] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Grass-fed beef raised on California's Central Coast. Now available online through larger meat company. Learn more at Hearstranch.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
+
+[0:22] This is Dave Arlder Hotel Cooking issues coming to you live on the Herodon Radio Network every Tuesday. Whenever. And also, Happy New Year, everyone. Happy New Year. Uh joined uh actually one of the last times Nastasi's gonna be joining us because uh from California, because she's headed back to our coast pretty soon, right, Nastasia?
+
+[0:39] No. I thought you were coming back in January. Yeah, change your mind be extended because my well, we can talk about it later. Yeah, nice. Well I mean, why would I go back and I'm glad to know that my business partner like doesn't even tell me like you know, on air I hear, you know, no.
+
+[0:55] All right, whatever. It happened like last night. Happy New Year. We got uh John in his uh Connecticut uh booth, right? That's right.
+
+[1:07] Yeah, and Matt in his Rhode Island Heidi Hall. How are you doing? Hello, hello, doing well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh all all undisclosed locations.
+
+[1:16] Uh I'm the only one who'll say exactly where I am. Lower east side. Come down to Grand Street, we'll fight. I'm kidding, we won't. Actually, I'm sure I'm sure Joel will say where he is too.
+
+[1:25] He just joins. Oh, hey. Uh long time uh long time friend of the show, Joel Gargano in here from uh Chester, Connecticut. How you doing? I'm doing great.
+
+[1:34] I'm actually home in Clinton right now. Oh, wait, I thought you were in Deep River, your house. You moved to Clinton. We moved. We uh we bought a house in Clinton because you know, kid and all.
+
+[1:45] Is it because when you were in Deep River and you went to Chester, all the Chester people were making fun of Deep River constantly, and so you're like, I can't live here, I can't do it. A lot of a lot of my staff grew up in Deep River, so they're they're pretty they have some strong feelings about that argument. Yeah, so for those of you that don't know and don't care, like on the left side of the Connecticut River, which is it's not actually the I don't you know I don't know. I always thought it was the most important river in Connecticut, but Connecticut's got like three or four main rivers. Anyway, Connecticut's one of them.
+
+[2:15] Uh and uh on the left side of it, there's these little towns, like really nice little towns, one of which was Chester, where I used to have a place in where Joel's restaurant is, Grano Arso Restaurant. And then just south of that is Deep River, and this town had these two towns have kind of a rivalry, and the Chester people, even though Chester is like also like a nice kind of it's not like Ritzy, it's just nice. You know what I mean? Like like it's like it's kind of ideal for someone like me. It's not like uh it's not like the upper east side.
+
+[2:40] It's like if you divided New York into zones, where where do you think Chester would be? New York City. Where where would Chester be? Well, I mean Yeah Murray Hill. I'll say I I would say probably maybe maybe West Village.
+
+[2:55] West Village. Yeah, ooh. And then and then that would make Deep Deep River then would be like the Bowery or something. Alphabet City, maybe. Yeah, all right.
+
+[3:03] Back when Alphabet City, back when you could still get murdered in Alphabet City. So anyway, uh also uh congratulations on the uh relatively new one in your family there, Joel. Thank you. Her name is Swan, and she's uh she's she's an absolute gem. Oh, beautiful.
+
+[3:16] Awesome. Great. Yeah, well, it's uh all joy. Now, uh before I get a couple of questions, uh that uh we had, we had, by the way, so uh Joel's an expert in uh um making both his own pasta and also in grinding flour, fresh grinding. We had a couple of questions in.
+
+[3:35] So rather than me speculating and kind of like, you know, uh weasling my way through these two questions that we had, we figured we'll just have uh Joel on, we'll ask him. And then you you get you get the answer from someone with some experience. Uh and secondly, uh, we wanted to check in and uh see how um what the what the kind of current COVID environment of business is up there in uh Connecticut. Well, I'll I'll start with the business stuff. Um so way back when, way back when, last March, um everyone was kind of in you know freak out mode.
+
+[4:07] So um it took a little while for us to figure out what what we were gonna be. Um so once we figured out that we can do some family style takeout stuff, um, you know, that that eventually worked out pretty good until we were able to reopen and do a parking lot restaurant, which actually was was pretty great. Um in Connecticut, at least where we are in Connecticut, um, people are pretty respectful. So that was that was kind of nice to see that people did the masks and didn't didn't complain that much. Uh we had once in a while you get a few one offs who just want to uh bark a little bit at the host, but um, but other than that, it's it's been pretty good.
+
+[4:44] That's the crew from Newington, Berlin and Newington came in. Yeah, yeah, they just they they roll right on, roll right on in with um particular hats on their heads and uh say certain things to our staff. So j just so you guys know, like coastal Connecticut is an extension of the line between no offense to coastal Connecticut, but it's an extension of the line between New York and Boston. All right. So like like that's who when people are like complaining about us East Coast elite people, like like they're part of that.
+
+[5:15] No, whether they're blue-collar or whatever, they're part of the thing that the rest of the country hates, right? That's us. But then, like, literally, literally 35 minutes to 45 minutes north, just above what's the middle town line, if you're going up the Connecticut River from the from the Long Island Sound, right? It completely changes. Coastal Coastal Connecticut's gone.
+
+[5:37] You know what I mean? It's like am I right about this, Joel? What do you think? You are exactly right. Um, and I'll I kind of leave I'll leave no comment on that, but yeah, there's it definitely goes into a different zone, uh, just a few miles north of Chester.
+
+[5:50] That is that is absolutely correct. So by the way, the bet my favorite place in Connecticut is right where the line, it's a place called Portland, Connecticut, which is a real rundown, like well, I shouldn't say that, but it's a community that has seen better economic days. It's across the river from Middletown, right? And in it is the my favorite water park ever, Brownstone. Have you gone to Brownstone, Joel?
+
+[6:12] There's a water park up there. I had no idea. Oh my god. Once this COVID is over, you gotta go to Brownstone. It it is a brownstone quarry where they quarried, you could guess, brownstone.
+
+[6:24] And uh at some point, I think in the 20s or 30s of the last century, the it flooded and couldn't be unflooded because they build quarries next to rivers a lot, so it's right on the other side of the Connecticut River from where Middletown, where that old bridge is. And uh it flooded and no one knew what to do with it. So at one point someone was like, Hey, let's open a water park. And it is it is amazing water park. It's got like, I don't know how, but there's like an amazing group of people, everyone's fun.
+
+[6:52] It's like, you know, like all different kinds of people, all different kinds of ages. You and the only and it's not like Action Park, if you've seen if you ever heard of Action Park in Vernon, New Jersey, or seen the recent documentary on it, the most dangerous water park of all time, where I actually went when I was a child. Uh, you know, everyone wears a vest, everyone's fairly respectful, but it's still kind of crazy. Like you could still jump off of a off of a cliff in a in a quarry into water. Amazing.
+
+[7:17] Go go when when the world reopens. But anyway. Hey John, we should grab our speedos and go next weekend. Yeah. I don't know whether I don't know when they're gonna open.
+
+[7:26] I I was gonna go this summer, but obviously not. You know what I mean? If any of you are from the area and want to go, the the power move once people are allowed, once people would ever be seen near water that someone else had been in, the power move is to get a group together and rent one of the gazebos. There's gazebos that like the entire place is decks, and you walk out on these floating decks, and then you can kind of just do whatever you want. You make a day of it, right?
+
+[7:52] And you can bring your own food. Don't bring liquor, I don't think. But you could I don't think you could bring your own food and you rent this gazebo, and your crew then owns this gazebo for the day. You could just camp out, you spend a whole day there. Well, like the most bad suggestion I think I've ever heard you say.
+
+[8:09] Hey, it's fantastic. Look, I believe it. Yeah, yeah, no, no. It's just it's funny. For those of you that don't know, you're never gonna see me.
+
+[8:15] I wore a bathing suit to this place. I did still wear a shirt because you know, I don't I don't show skin in public, but like they got me to wear a bathing suit, and I was happy to be there. So for me to be happy to be at a place like this, I mean, that says a lot. And unlike Sesame Place, no offense, Philadelphia. This place does not smell like a poorly attended uh male gym locker, right?
+
+[8:38] You know, or like you know when you leave a towel and you wash the towel and then you don't dry the towel, and then a week later, you open the dryer and you're like, oh, that right? Sesame Place, I'm not saying it smells like that, but it smells like that. You know what I'm saying? Sesame Place is a water park near Philadelphia. Anyway, I love Sesame Place, no offense, but you know.
+
+[8:59] That's not, yeah, that's not really coming across in that description. What the lack of offense? The one negative thing I'll say about Brownstone is this. Uh that when you are approaching Brownstone, you're like, whoa, I don't think I'm gonna like this because right next to it on the other side of the of the street, right on the where the river is, are like a bunch of like uh oil storage tanks. Because for those of you that have never been to Connecticut, much like New Jersey on the waterfront, at some point in the 20th century, someone decided, hey, what if we took everything we had that was pure and beautiful and surrounded it with petroleum?
+
+[9:37] Right? And so, like anywhere you go in Connecticut where there should be beautiful wall, except for where Nastasia's house is, not that she's ever gonna go back, apparently, although I didn't know, but everywhere you go where they're supposed to be. But I'm going back, I want to clarify to everyone, I'm going back. It's just the idea of sitting in my house on the water by myself in the winter and then being out in the sun near my family is like, you know, yeah, the choice seems pretty clear. Hey, Nastasia, Nastasia, not now, but tell me when we can tell the story of the of the windows.
+
+[10:07] Anyway, you can tell it. Yeah, and that's the other part of it. You can tell. All right, well, let's finish this. Every single beautiful place in Connecticut, at some point, someone has tried to ruin it with it with either a raised highway where they take 95 and like cut through all this beautiful stuff, or they put some sort of giant uh gasoline storage there.
+
+[10:25] So you can kind of when the wind changes direction at the at Brownstone, but once you're in the quarry, you don't smell it, but like when you're up top, you're like, eh, meh, you know what I mean? Anyway. Uh, so business. Uh, you're saying they're being respectful, but like what what's happening now that it's turning winter tent. So, okay, so obviously, we had to close out our big parking lot uh restaurant.
+
+[10:44] Um, so we put a few tables out front, and most people don't want to sit outside. We get a few people that don't mind, and we have our little propane heater. You ever see these ones? You can get them at Home Depot. They look like uh like Johnny Five from Short Circuit, and they had basically it's like two big eyes, and they this is a propane and just lights up.
+
+[11:02] We just wheel them over to the table, right? Um, and they can get their personal heater, and they're like 50 bucks a piece. But they're not the overhead, they're not the overhead umbrella infrareds that are that kind of money, man. Yeah. Plus, those things are like twice the cost of what they used to be.
+
+[11:17] You know what they're doing in New York City now. I don't even know how these are legal because they they've they've New York City has converted outdoor dining back to indoor dining. So the the coolest setup I saw is someone bought a bunch of those uh portable greenhouses and just stacked them one next to each other. So keep yeah, to keep the heat in. And so here's the thing like all of those people are indoor, and then the poor server has to show up and deal with a bunch of hopefully for the you know bank accounts of everyone involved, extremely liquored up, you know what I mean?
+
+[11:50] Like people like spewing crap into the server's face. I still feel bad for the for the servers, but that's how we're dealing with it. This is definitely something that um has shown a lot uh of our industry and a couple ways, what we're capable of doing. Obviously, we you're we're made to think on our feet, but but the other side of things financially, that um you you you get a little more thrifty than than you think you could be. You know, um, I didn't think that we'd be offering um the the food that we're doing out in a parking lot on picnic tables, and people would be throwing down upwards of uh you know a hundred dollars a person before you know service charge gratuity or whatever, and they're happy to do it sitting on a picnic table, which is amazing to me so that that's the kind of community that that we do have and we have the plus side and I know there's a lot of other restaurants in the state and you know group here in the country that are doing a lot worse than we are so which um such great people to come support us through in all this stupid mess.
+
+[12:48] But now that it's cold out we have people inside it's not the most popular thing to be honest. You know but our staff is really good and they take you know the utmost precautions and um if anyone gives any sass we give it right back andor kick them out. Funny story we had a guy show up the other day right before service started and wearing a body camera attached to a lanyard and started uh picking a fight with the hostess and she's 16 years old by the way it's like so you're a grand ass man picking a fight with a 16 year old hostess about uh putting a mask on so we're like okay this so and the and the body camera is just so he can prove to all of his friends what a douchebag he is I'm pretty sure on it this was like he was trying to collect content for his Facebook page or something. Um so uh it was uh our manager Haley came over and uh squashed you pretty quick um and I had just turned the corner as this was happening and uh the funniest part about this was we had someone picking up a takeout order um while this was happening and the bottom of the bag was wet there was two quarts of marinara sauce in that bag that just hit the floor exploded all over the host area while this guy is harassing our young hostess. So if you can imagine this moment of like, what the f what is going on with you?
+
+[14:10] It was, but those those opportun those things that happen are so few and far between that, you know, when they do, we're just kind of like, you're you're crazy. Just get out. So when we when that does happen, we just we kick them out. So it's only good. A lot of fun cleaning up uh marinara sauce and uh well yeah hopefully it was in a quart and not in glass uh yeah yeah yeah wait what let me ask you quick why can't like you you ever notice with core containers and for those of you that that have you noticed this they're getting worse yeah they are more brittle than they used to be it used to be so core containers like where we come from over here everyone uses core containers and they're not environmentally unfriendly because you use them eight million times and by the way for any of you that order soup from people or whatever and someone hands you a quart container don't throw that away at home you can use that thing forever right the one caveat is is that if you freeze in them they are extremely brittle but recently the core container batches I've been getting have all been brittle even at room temperature.
+
+[15:06] You can't you know when you got some kind of solid and you gotta look you got to squeeze got to get a little squeeze to get it out. Yeah you can't do the squeeze anymore you get you give a little squeeze the whole thing shatters game over yeah and they and and they they separate in it like there's a disc line separation around the bottom that I've been cracking all the core containers on. I don't get it. They're polypropylene they nothing should happen to them right like the like polypropylene is a great plastic for this uh uh for this because a it's la lack of you know plasticizers the fact that it doesn't leach the fact that it can handle high temperature relatively high temperatures like like way past boiling um without degrading like all of that, but they they and but suddenly they've they these have just been so disappointed. We found we found one brand um from from our one of our vendors, TriMark, that you have to like talk, you have to like call call our sales drive and say, give me this specific one, or else they'll just pick whatever and send it, right?
+
+[16:04] Because they got a bunch of different brands. Right. But this one seems to be of the old style. So I can give it a solid squeeze and it doesn't shatter. Yeah.
+
+[16:14] I'll give I like that. I'll give you an example of this just happened to me last week. So Dax, who's 15, like, of course, I mean, kind of like me actually, fidgets constantly, right? He fidgly. So we're at the dinner table, and he's taking, I had a uh, you know, we uh so you don't just buy quartz, you buy quartz, you buy pints, and you buy uh some eight ounces, right?
+
+[16:34] So that you can efficiently uh store things with different quantities. So I think I had an eight or a sixteen, you know, uh, and I had this Greek yogurt in it, and Dax kept on spinning the the yogurt around on the table. I'm like, Dax, nothing good can happen from spinning this. The only things that can happen are bad things, right? Spillage, whatever.
+
+[16:53] So he kept on doing it, and so finally I went whack, and I hit the container down onto the table to stop it from spinning and shattered it, yogurt everywhere. Yogurt everywhere. Definitely imagine it opened. Yeah, classic, classic me story. I was like, I told you nothing good could happen.
+
+[17:09] You're and it ends up what happened is you pissed your dad off, he hit the yogurt container down under the table. Now there's yogurt everywhere. See, see? So I was I was also. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:20] Well, you know. Uh okay. So these are the cooking questions. Uh, although hey, core containers was relatively quick cooking related, cooking tangential, cooking adjacent. So I feel like we've gotten some cooking stuff in.
+
+[17:33] And Nastasia, remind us, we'll talk Windows at the end. Uh Trevor, I have two questions for you. Trevor Driscoll wrote in, and uh, I was wondering about the virtues of fresh milling flowers for pastas. Have you experimented with milling your own grains for pasta doughs? And does it generally have a similar impact uh as it does when you're baking bread?
+
+[17:53] Cheers, Trevor and P. S. We gave them some advice that the rice cooker was in fact not a uh uh what's it called, just a superfluous luxury, and that they would use it more and more. And he says, P.S. the rice cooker has become a crowd favorite, and that purchase is no longer contentious.
+
+[18:08] Well, I'm glad you're never gonna really I I've never met anyone who's like, I wish I didn't have this rice cook. I never use it. Crazy. Anyway, uh, so you got you got an answer for me, Joel? Sure.
+
+[18:17] So um, hi Trevor. Well, we've we've done a bunch of different stuff at the restaurant, uh, Granar Arso with uh freshly milling grain. Um when it was part of how we open, it's part of the concept of the restaurant. So we went through a few different iterations. Um I think the the two camps that you're gonna fall into, and I'm I'm assuming he's uh he's a home cook, he's probably gonna be making sheeted or rolled pasta, not extruded, machine extruded pasta.
+
+[18:44] So um I'll I'll go into the extruded stuff first, just so he has a point of reference. But the the problem you get into, and it's not impossible. Uh, the problem you get into if you did 100% a freshly milled flour through an extruded pasta machine is that if it's not milled finely enough, it'll get caught in the dyes, um, and then you're having a big, big problem. So, what we do is we actually sift out uh the brand and germ after the mill. And we just have a tabletop mill, it's a Kumo, um, tabletop mill.
+
+[19:15] Um, and we set it to as fine as possible and pass it through, and then sift out the the chunkies. Um, and then we use that flour um to make our pasta dough. The hydrations do change, typically you need just a touch more water, even if you're sifting. Um, so you have to play with your ratios a little bit. But anyway, it is possible.
+
+[19:36] The only problem you run into with uh using freshly milk flour is that your product uh if it sits, as we call in the restaurant on meason plast, if it sits for too long, uh it'll start to oxidize. Um the changes. Um, in fact, we've noticed it gets gummy. So I would suggest if you are extruding. Um you think that's due to enzymatic action?
+
+[19:58] I I don't really know. Um it could be I'm I'm thinking it's like partially fermenting, even maybe. I don't I don't really know. Um, because we're not at the restaurant, we're not freezing extruded pasta. So it just sits in the cooler until we use it.
+
+[20:11] So you imagine, you know, with your prep schedules, let's say you have enough pasta for two days or three days sometimes, and you or you want it to carry the weekend and see how it is on Tuesday. Um, it has completely changed color. Uh it gets dark brown, um, and it's it's really not that appetizing. So yeah, uh what we've done at the restaurant um is actually much lower the amount of whole grain, um, freshly mill flour we put into and use mostly semolina. And we've adjusted this since we opened uh just because of that, because the product was degrading so quickly.
+
+[20:41] But did like when you did cook it though right away, did you like so like fresh milled wheat in bread just tastes different? I'm not saying it's better. I like it a lot. That's what I use now, but it's just tastes different from AP flour and makes whole wheat flour that you buy seem like like some sort of like terrible bad joke that people are playing on you, right? Like, do you get any taste effects like that in the floor?
+
+[21:08] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it definitely it definitely tastes uh again, you know, like it I guess it depends, you know, like what kind of flavor profile you're looking for. Pure semolina, uh just regular general mill semolina has uh has a almost nostalgic flavor to most people. It's it's delicious on its own right. And it's and it's kind of neutral to whatever preparation you're doing.
+
+[21:28] Versus if you're going to uh freshly mill grain, you know, you're gonna want that to be a predominant flavor and not just kill it with you know your your your marinara sauce uh or or a like a like a basil pesto or something that you would make at home normal. So I would I would probably do different preparations if you are gonna do that to highlight uh the flavor of the grain. Now that that's just extruded stuff, but with freshly roll uh sorry, sheet sheeted pasta um or rolled pasta, um typically you're making uh a dough with eggs in it. Um that you can get away with with whole grain without sifting the flour. Um, but you are gonna have just a little bit less pliability, I think, with the dough.
+
+[22:08] Um it definitely you have to up the hydration or the amount of uh egg you're putting in at the restaurant. You don't re grind yeah, you don't regrind the brand, even at a fine setting, the brand's pretty big. If you're going fine on your rollers, it's gonna cause tear out sometimes, right? Correct, yeah. And we've done that.
+
+[22:23] We just think because we actually at the restaurant we have other purpose for the brand of the germ. So we we find other things to do with it. We actually reload it back into our bread. So let's say we're making a pasta dough and we sift out the brand of the germ. We'll take, we call it the uh the the what I forgot what my my baker calls if you'll scrap or something.
+
+[22:40] Um the trim of it, and he he takes it and and throws it back into the bread. So it's it's had a purpose. Um, but for for the roll pasta, uh that's a better bet for the freshly milked flour. Um, I would I would suggest it, but if you're not gonna use it right away, put it in the freezer. So um we actually do this as practice at the restaurant.
+
+[23:01] Um it does not degrade the quality, in my opinion, of uh of raviolis, all that kind of stuff because we're going through it in a day or two anyway. Um all it does is set the dough so it doesn't, you know, the moisture doesn't leak out of the filling and yada yada. So actually uh using fresh amount of flour helps the structure of the ravioli. So it actually for the dishes that we do, it actually helps. And we do this with rye.
+
+[23:26] So we add up the 10% of freshly milled rye that's been. Oh, that's crazy. Rye is so sticky, you don't have problems with it? Not at all. It actually firms up the dough.
+
+[23:34] So, but again, we're only using 10%, and the rest of it is double zero. So uh that that amount actually firms the dough up enough. You have to up the hydration again, just a tad. Um, and we get a fantastic product out of that. You make great garganelli, uh, um, you know, tagletelli, fettuccine, yada yada, all that stuff.
+
+[23:53] Now, Nastasia, you're not against fresh egg pastas and fresh ravioli, right? Right. I'm not yeah, you're okay. But you know, you know, I'm sure Joel knows by now that you're in general you are a commercially produced dry pasta lover and have taken a stance against most fresh pastas, true? Right.
+
+[24:12] Really? Yeah. Why? I just really don't like them. And it feels like if you're gonna have a shape other than uh like fettuccine with uh bolinese sauce or something, uh it should be dry.
+
+[24:29] Because when I eat shapes, it's just like a big mound of dough in your stomach. And I spend a lot of time in Italy and going back and forth. And it's like I love dried pasta. I prefer it. What about tortillini and broto?
+
+[24:44] You know, you got new, you got you know a stuffed pasta. They're really tiny and I said stuffed pasta is fine. Yeah, Nastancia's not against things that she thinks are intended to be fresh, right? Yeah. That is intended to be fresh.
+
+[24:56] You can't do it any other way. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Also, Nastasia, I am uh the way that I have received what you have said, not just about this argument, but all arguments are like sometimes big companies do a great job, let them do it. Yeah.
+
+[25:12] That's a good point. That's a really good point. And actually, Dave, I'm gonna make a plug. We're opening up a dry pasta company this year. So that's that's a big that's a big thing.
+
+[25:23] We've we've purchased the equipment. We have this gigantic pasta extruder um from pastabiz that we uh got in a drying cabinet. So that's that's the real deal way to do it. Um the guys at Pasta Biz are great. So help us kind of source all this stuff out.
+
+[25:38] I I I anxiously anticipate uh uh trying some of your uh where and if you can, I would love to hear because you you I mean Nastasia w won't give any proprietary information out, obviously, but like you know, if you talk to some of these old school uh Italians, they're like the drying rate, the drying rate, but then they won't tell you what exactly the effect is or what they do because everyone has their secrets and they won't tell you. So I'm hoping that you know, maybe if you do some experiments on drying rate on these pastas that you can, you know, maybe tell us what's actually going on with this stuff. Might be free. Yeah, it's I've never dried pasta commercially before. We've done you know, sit by the windowsill kind of thing, um, and that usually does not yield great results.
+
+[26:21] So, especially with extruded pasta and the low hydration, it's actually really difficult um to do it. So the drying cabinets are pretty dialed in. There's cycles it goes through, and it's like super hot, uh, you know, it goes up to like 130 degrees or something. I'll I'll know once once I get the damn thing plugged in. Um, but it's sitting in a crate right now.
+
+[26:41] Anyway, so that's kind of where we're going. And it's a good opportunity for us to try to transfer um the style of pasta we do at the restaurant and really see if it works with drying, you know, and particularly using rye, because we love using rye in our pasta, it's in our bread, it's all the stuff. Um, it's one of our favorite grains to do because when we when we uh do our toast on it, um, the grana arso kind of flour, instead of burning, you know, quote unquote burning the flour, we toast the whole grain in a cast iron pan until it's smells like uh you put Cheerios in the toaster oven. You know, I mean they get kind of this burnt oaty kind of smell. We chill it and then pass it through the mill.
+
+[27:18] Um, and we get a really fantastic flavorful product. Um, so we're gonna try to see how that translates into drying. It might not work. We don't know. We'll find out.
+
+[27:27] Well, I again I anxiously anticipate. Now, you get there's one more question for you, and uh before that, I'm gonna like insert here a little because there's a lot of confusion, I think, even people who know a lot about exactly what semolina is and dorum and why you would use it. So Nastasia, expert on this from the you know, all the pasta business. Joel, you are I'm gonna just insert something and then you can argue about what I say. So uh Semolina, right, is a it's a grind, right?
+
+[27:57] So it's it's a grind. And what it is is it's got very few fines in it. In other words, like it's it's not supposed to have any dust or very little dust as possible because you don't want to have um a lot of uh dusty damaged starch because that stuff absorbs water like a mother, right? And so it's going to like make you have to have a higher hydration dough to make it machinable, right? Uh and so then the other thing about durum is that uh durum wheat, which is a wheat now, not a grind.
+
+[28:32] So you can have Durham flour, right? You don't have to just only get semolina out of it. You can make Durham flour, right? But typically people are buying the semolina from Durham. Durum is an extremely hard wheat, right?
+
+[28:46] But the gluten in it, right, is not such that uh it's going to stretch back as much as a because you could also whip mill semolina from a regular like spring or winter hard wheat. But if you do that, you're gonna get so much like shrink back on your stuff that you're not gonna be able to kind of extrude properly. You need you need it to hold together, have enough protein to have good bite, but you don't want it to be snapping back. You don't want the the the you know the snap back that you would get in something where the where the gluten system was extremely uh stretchy, right? So this so that's why you want an extremely hard wheat, and by the way, the hardness of wheat uh people associate it with high protein, not true.
+
+[29:29] It is a different protein, it's not the gluten protein that makes the grains hard. Uh and they've done the research over the past 15 years, it's a different set of proteins that cause the uh the wheat to be hard. But you want it to be very hard so that it shatters into these kind of large chunks, and then uh the or the you know, not large, but these little these semolina chunks, which can then be formed into a relatively low hydration and also not, you know, you can stretch it out, but it doesn't snap back dough, and that is why Dorum Semolina is the sinequan non of pasta flowers. Would you both of you say that's relatively accurate? Accurate.
+
+[30:06] Yeah. Um the second question, uh uh pasta related question, and before I get to this, I had another question. Someone wants to start grinding more meat. Uh I have the question here somewhere while you have it. Do you have any any recommendations for you know relatively inexpensive, like you know, next level up from uh the KitchenAid meat grinder?
+
+[30:25] That you know, maybe I don't know, like the hobart is what everyone gets the five the the you know the the you know the the hobart that's about the size of uh of a small ice cream machine. But is there one that's uh cheaper that works that you've tested or no? We we go we go traditional hobart. In fact, I think the cast iron thing that attaches to my 20 core mixer is probably 30 years old. But the um and it and it works great.
+
+[30:48] Although I will, and I I don't have a recommendation, but I will put in a formal complaint to KitchenAid that the food grinder attachment, the blade on that thing is like basically a paper clip uh that they've melted down and to make it look like uh some sort of uh uh like knife that you're supposed to put in this thing is completely garbage. But you know what's really good for is that if you're gonna make an emulsified style sausage, it actually does a good job at mashing the meat and the fat together. Because it's such a smear machine, it does the opposite of what it's supposed to do, but if you're making emulsified sausage, it actually does it'll actually do okay. Nice. All right.
+
+[31:27] Zach C uh put this chat room question in before. Uh mid pandemic, I was somehow able to convince my partner that an arcaboleno AEX5. Now that people is like if you live in a house or want a small pasta machine in a line on uh in a in a restaurant, right? It doesn't have a lot of output, but I've been jonesing for one of these things for years. It it mixes and then extrudes, and you can get all kinds of cool dyes.
+
+[31:54] It is, uh, as the British would say, an awesome piece of kit. Anyway, uh I was able to uh get the A uh AEX5 uh as a critical tool to survive sheltering in place. It's been amazing. One thing I find challenging is that the only real recipes for extruded pasta are aimed at commercial/slash industrial scale, where the main goal is to end up with dried pasta. So this is going back to our dried pasta question.
+
+[32:17] Do you know, and this since you have not yet been a dryer, Joel, you will know this. Do you know of any resources that have uh recipe guidance for extruded fresh pastas? I want to better understand how things like different flowers, eggs, moisture, etc. impact the final product. And then a bonus question, uh I'll probably handle this one, uh, unless you're one of you guys are welders.
+
+[32:38] I have a tank of welding argon at my apartment because uh sometimes a man's got a tig. My roommate and I hypothesize that we could displace the air in an open bottle of wine with the argon uh to prevent oxidation. It didn't work. Should this theoretically work? Yes, it should.
+
+[32:50] You're just not delivering it right. All right, now back to the pasta question. Oh wow, sometimes a man's got a tig. I like that. Um, like when you run a TIG, there's a certain amount of air in the line.
+
+[33:01] So if you have the Argon thing, if you're actually using the torch, the TIG tip, right? You gotta run it for a little while. Don't you know you want to make sure that you're not gonna build up pressure in the bottle. Some of those early argon things will cause the bottle to shatter. So you're gonna wanna run it for a while before you even do the injection, and then you're gonna want an in and an out, and you want the out to be outside of the bottle and the in to be in the bottle so that it's trans transferring all the stuff out.
+
+[33:26] Anyway, go ahead. So uh yeah, so uh this is that this has been a sort of um I wouldn't call it an argument, but something inside my head that knocks around a lot. Why extrude pasta that's supposed to be dried um and but then just go around and turn it fresh? Does the texture change? Absolutely.
+
+[33:45] I think it's just a completely different product. So when people come into our restaurant, they're like, hey, this guy makes all of his own pasta, how cool. Um, you know, they they probably don't connect the two dots that if I if I purchase dried pasta of made with American semolina flour, it probably went through the exact same machine um that I use, probably just a bigger scale, but the process is exactly the same. So really all it comes down to is the type of flyer using and the texture that you desire. Uh but the pressure on the big machines is a lot higher though, right?
+
+[34:18] Like the screw pressure is a lot higher than that. Yeah, but that will also changes the temperature of the dough for which it extrudes, and that changes the product. So for for um uh what's this gentleman's name again? Uh Zach C. Zach, all right, Zach.
+
+[34:32] Uh so here's your master hydration to start with 31%. So start with 31% water by weight uh of of your coarse or whatever of your sorry of your semolino flour. Don't don't go down the the Durham road. So general journal Mills, okay, classic standard uh for uh for for semolina in America, it does a great job, it's very consistent. Um start with 31%.
+
+[34:59] If you want to start to add in some uh some adjunct grains or some spelt or whatever, start with five percent, climb up to 10%. Um, you've got this little machine so you can have fun. So you can dry it. It does make a different texture. If you don't dry it, just cook cook it right away.
+
+[35:14] So even if it's sat in the fridge for you know, two days, it'll generally keep around the same hydration. The cook time won't change that much. Um, if you leave it out with with no cover, obviously it'll dry out and then it'll change the cook time. But um, if you do decide to dry it, you can do the by the window sill method. You can put a small box fan on it.
+
+[35:35] Um, just you have to rotate the shapes around because if it's sitting or put on a rack, um, but you still have to shake them around because whatever contact point it has, um, it's gonna, it's it's not gonna, it's gonna stay wetter in that area. So the drying won't be even. But um, I would I would encourage them to experiment with both and see which one you like better. Because you might like your dried, you know, spaghetti or bucottini product that's your extruding, but you might hate your rigatoni because the the wall thickness is different or something like that. And that's something we run into at the restaurant all the time is uh, you know, how fast can we cook this?
+
+[36:10] You know, because we're a restaurant, it's gotta we gotta get the food out. Um so sometimes I choose shapes that have thinner wall thicknesses and pair them with with more popular dishes. And if I don't like the texture of the completed dish, great, start, throw it out, start over. Um, but some pasta shapes do take a lot longer, like Sarde is sometimes an eight-minute cook, even if you just extruded it fresh and didn't dry it. So I guess it really depends where where Mr.
+
+[36:35] Zach wants to land uh with with what he likes. Um, but I would encourage him to try both. What do you think about what do you think about Nastasia's comment on the doughiness of a lot of people's attempt at fresh pasta, it should be otherwise? Do you think it's just because they don't have a machine that can achieve a low enough hydration on extrusion? Because they use the wrong flour.
+
+[36:54] Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, and back to what you're saying about the sort of elasticity, plasticity of of like semolina doughs. Um, you know, it it just creates a different bite. And that's why I encourage people if you're going to extrude pasta, you can add non-semolina flowers to it, but it will inherently make the dough more gummy, maybe, uh, sometimes softer.
+
+[37:17] And some people like that, they don't mind it. I think really it's like shape dependent. I mean, I mean, there's so many shapes you or dyes you can buy for your extruder. Um, but if you don't like the doughiness of it, perhaps maybe dry it a little bit. Um, I don't like adding eggs at all to my extruded doughs.
+
+[37:33] I know there's people that do that, they'll kind of dose their semolina doughs with egg yolk. Um, I feel like they just do it just for for color. But um I I don't I don't prefer the texture that it that it that it kind of contributes to to that. So I just I'm a simulating. Real real pasta heads though hate soft pasta, right?
+
+[37:51] What do what do you mean? So what do you mean? Well, anastasia, you hate a soft pasta, right? But it's an egg though. Like it is.
+
+[37:58] And I'm going off of like Mark Ladner's training, you know, and he's pretty good at pasta. Well, but what I'm saying is is that you hate a pasta that doesn't have a texture when you bite into it. That's what I mean by kind of soft, right? You mean like the al dente type. Yeah, you're just not gonna have to accept that you're not gonna get that.
+
+[38:17] That's all. Yeah, well, in the end, but the the problem is, right? That when you go harder, when you when you try to go lower hydration with with and your technique is that doesn't match up to it, it's you can I guess you can make it harder, but then the outside gets like almost boiled dumpling looking, right? Yeah, yeah. I well, like again, I think if you're using, let's say, for example, you want to make a sheet of dough, it's got eggs in it, and you do that.
+
+[38:42] Uh, you know, you you pull it the measuring cup and you get you know, crappy all-purpose flour, throw in three eggs and mix it around, and then you you pass it. I think that makes terrible pasta dough. It just it's not the right flour. Um, the if there's too much egg white in it, I think, and it makes the it makes it too uh like a wrong type of firmness, it almost like souffles a little bit when you cook it. I don't know what it's like.
+
+[39:04] Yeah, it puffs up. Well, this this like the damage, like the damaged starch and the fines and all that are gonna inflate and you're gonna get like that, you know. Yeah, so that's why they're heavier on the egg yolk. I I think that's the better way to do it. And you don't want your pasta looking like a spetzel, right?
+
+[39:22] Although I love spzzel. So what so what we do, we actually sheet our um our pastas, even if we make garganelli or any of that um that are non-stuffed, we sheet them as thin as possible. Uh, we go is is before it it breaks, they're extremely fragile. That's why we make them and throw them in the freezer immediately, so that way we can portion them, but the cook on them is like like under 90 seconds, and we can put in like whatever filling you want, and it basically thaws out in that 90 seconds, never curdles like you do uh um the cheese or any of that, it never curdles in there, and the texture on the pasta is like amazing. It's super super silky and soft and doesn't have that um any like bit of like odd firmness to it that that you get sometimes with those whole egg style doughs.
+
+[40:09] What the one that I I don't like and I still can't really comprehend is freshly sheeted guitar, which is you use that, it looks like a guitar, right? It's a bunch of strings across a board. You have to make a really thick kind of dough, or sorry, sorry, like thickness um before you pass it through to get this like square cut shape. By the time you cook that thing, it is like a brick in your stomach. So I haven't really wrapped my head around what why you would do that.
+
+[40:35] Why not just sheet it thinner and make you know a spaghetti style guitar that's a little bit thinner? It just might be a regional or a buttons cooking technique. People used to have the they'd string across the board and they'd do it. Did anyone ever do that industrially? I mean, they do I I guess, but I mean, do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[40:51] I mean, you did what you did, right? Yeah. I mean, I think if you think about it, why not just pass it through a die? I mean, you are gonna get a different texture because you're you're literally forcing it through an auger and it's gonna heat up a little bit. Um, but I don't know.
+
+[41:06] I I I would prefer if that dough was a firmer semolina style dough, not an egg dough, because again, it's like you're biting into like a like a really hard souffleed flower lump. You know what I mean? You're really selling it there, the hard hard souffleed flower lump. What do you got, Matt? Uh Courtney BST asks in the chat, can you dry fresh pasta in a dehydrator?
+
+[41:31] I have one at home and would love to give handmade dried pasta away as gifts. Yeah, you you can. Um, I've done it, it does not work great. The problem is, I think of that uh unless you say your dehydrator is super low, I still think the fan is like too much. So maybe if you like vented a corner of the dehydrator and kind of let a little more air out, it might work.
+
+[41:52] Um I've I've done probably eight to ten tests doing this. I've had zero great results. I think you're better off doing an ambient temperature, it just takes longer. So just leave it out on the counter. Uh make sure it's not, you know, you're you're not in like, I don't know, like like a human part of the country, or if you are, make sure the air conditioner is on and it's not, you know, just a bunch of moisture in your in your kitchen, or else it'll take longer.
+
+[42:19] And I would flip the pasta off to move it around. Yeah, but you need a certain look, you need a low enough humidity to do it though. Like you need a low humidity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I again I have a lot more to learn about about drying pasta.
+
+[42:30] But it's almost like if you dry it too fast, it just cracks and it's it's useless. It'll look fine. It'll actually look kind of cool. You're like, oh, look at this thing. If I put it in a box and slap the label on it, it will look professional.
+
+[42:41] But by the time you go to cook it, your noodles just they crack, they fall apart. Uh people always tell me my noodle cracks. Um also like I uh I said earlier that uh you know I've somehow lost my touch on uh gnocchi, and you you wrote in you want to give some quick uh gnocchi tips wh while I have you on here. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I did.
+
+[43:01] Have you tested it yet? No, no, no. I've been working on a bunch of other last night. I was working on my favorite burglarloid, the patty melt. I have some my new thoughts on patty melting.
+
+[43:10] Dave, I'm gonna before I get to my gnocchi, I'm I'm gonna let you add something. So every single year, my wife and I, as a Christmas decorate tree decorating tradition, we make your patty melt. Oh man, the high tech one? No, no, the the one you made on that you did like an eater video like 10 years ago. Yeah.
+
+[43:26] Nice. I I make it, I make it every year. She loves it. Patty melt's delicious, right? Delicious.
+
+[43:31] What was the one you put like a ketchup puck in it or something? That was really well. So I the original patty melt I did was just the way that I would do it if I was gonna do the best job I could do. And then uh I made it and eater was like, no, no, no, we came to you because we wanted something kind of like as wacky, something stupid. I was like, alright.
+
+[43:47] And so I was like, what if I what because by the way, like I'm in general on my burgers, I'm a mayonnaise and other kind of, but on patty melt, the answer is ketchup. Like there isn't really a different answer. So if you don't like ketchup, maybe patty melts aren't for you because the answer to what goes on a patty melt is ketchup. Someone's like, Can I put tomatoes on it? No.
+
+[44:07] No, no, no. What you do is you eat so patty melt, for those of you that don't know, is rye bread, right? You can go seedless or you can go not seedless, but like like New York, like Jewish deli style rye bread. Then uh you could change the cheese up a little bit, but Swiss, some Swiss, some Emmenthal style thing. I like Gruyere, whatever.
+
+[44:27] Uh that, right? Then uh like like really well sauteed onions and a burger, and it should end up like like a grilled like a grilled cheese. So like the taste of this with some ketchup is great. Anyway, so I did one where I low temped it and all this other stuff, you know, it was it's delicious, but uh but the one I was working on yesterday was like I was trying to go even kind of lower, so I was I was uh I was doing something closer to a smash burger on the burger so that the burger was like small but still all the way across the the rye. It ended up good.
+
+[44:58] I also though switched my technology from butter on the grilled cheese part of it to uh mayonnaise, and I think I over mayonnaise it last night, so it got a little bit a little bit too greasy. Anyway, I digress. So either was like, it's not crazy enough. So then I I did a reverse alginate, which typically I don't use these techniques, uh, but I did a reverse alginate um ketchup puck, which I then molded inside of a um, which I then molded inside of a of a burger, and then low temped the burger, then like flash seared. I can't remember whether I fried it or flash seared the burger off, put it inside of the pre-grilled, which is still a good idea, by the way, doing a pre-grilled cheese thing to your patty mouth, separating it and put the burger in between the bread that's already been pressed flat with the grilled cheese and the and the and the onions is still a smart move.
+
+[45:50] Anyway, do that, and then when you cut it at the table and open it, the ketchup self-sauses itself out. So it's a nice trick. But I don't think anyone's ever going to do that in the real life. That's just because. And then eater, for as mad as they got at me for not going crazy enough on the first one, they posted both.
+
+[46:08] You know, anyway. Uh good times. But the patty melt is I'm not gonna say it's a hamburger, but it's my favorite burgaloid. Do you for your toast, because I don't remember, do you uh do you pre-butter the bread and then put on the griddle, or do you butter the griddle? So the the issue with uh if you're a butter grilled cheese, and I'm I'm saying uh in all honesty, I'm becoming a convert to the mayonnaise uh the like side of the the dark side of this because you know, my whole life I've been a butter guy.
+
+[46:38] Uh and there is room for a for a little bit of change, but I butter I butter the surface on the first piece of bread and then put it down. The problem is when you flip it, it's hard to get the butter all the way under the second piece. And you know, the the when I was a kid making them, you would just cut little pieces of butter and put them all around and they would kind of capillary wick in, but you'd always have little dry spots, you know, over your bread, which is not what you want, right? So, I mean, I'm kind of thinking maybe butter on one side and mayonnaise on the other might be the the the answer answer. But I mean, obviously, nothing simpler than just spreading some mayonnaise on and putting it down.
+
+[47:15] I've never have I done maybe I can't remember for the video because if the French culinary butter was free and I I could just keep a bunch of melted stuff around, I might have done the brush on of melted butter, but I wouldn't recommend that for home just because it's kind of too wasteful for home people, you know. Yeah, that's an extra step you don't need to do. I just say if you're if you're the type of person that leaves your butter out soften to like 24-7, which you should, um, then it's it's an easy schmear. I don't know. Can I tell you something?
+
+[47:40] So, like, so Booker goes through an unconscionable amount of butter. Just to give you an idea, like the the Liege style waffles that I make, I I did some calculations. I think they're roughly a third of a stick of butter. I don't know. There's something ridiculous in the Liege waffles.
+
+[47:54] It's like uh it's a pound of butter for 13. Anyway, it's crazy amount of butter in it. Booker then adds like a half stick of butter to the Liege waffle in all the cranes. So he's he so I lied when I said he only eats sushi and candy. He also, you know, Elvis style consumes, you know, uh like sticks of butter at a time and still has an unhealthily low uh BMI uh you know body weight.
+
+[48:17] Anyway, um he's a growing young man, he deserves butter. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I'm not against obviously I'm not against the butter. Um, but here's another little thing he has about it is that he doesn't like soft butter. So like I had one of those butter cloches where it doesn't go rancid where you store it and it it puts the butter under the surface of water when it's being stored without getting it wet so that it you don't get oxygen in, so it doesn't go rancid on you.
+
+[48:41] And he's like, uh, butter should be hard, Dad. I'm like, no, you're wrong. He's like, yeah, I don't care what you think, that's the way I want it. So now no butter can be tempered in this house or Booker won't use it. Dude, you just hide some like in another room.
+
+[48:54] You can't do that. I guess. I don't know, but like again, like I mean, I have more butter in my fridge at any one moment than most people who aren't cooking professionally at this point. Like, you know, I it once I go below three pounds in butter reserves and strategic butter reserves, I start getting nervous. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:12] Same with eggs. Like if I don't have at least two dozen fresh eggs in my fridge at any one time, I start like, you know, feeling like something bad is gonna happen to me. And that's not a pandemic thing. That's just the way I cook. Um but yeah I guess I could spare a stick.
+
+[49:30] Just keep keep it like underneath your bed. Yeah but sometime sometime around five or six maybe even more maybe maybe like even longer now I switched from being a butter on my bread guy to an olive oil on my bread guy. That's also good. I like what when when you've been in our restaurant did you find it strange that we serve butter with in in our with our bread in our Italian restaurant. No I didn't remember that.
+
+[49:52] I don't know I I didn't register it. Do you do both? No we just served our the cultured butter because we did the cultured butter is delicious. Yeah. Yeah I mean it it makes total sense.
+
+[50:01] I just I've always had this like internal fear that one day some uh super uh Italian guy is gonna walk into my uh to my kitchen and and shoot me in the face for serving butter with bread in an Italian restaurant but most of that most of that generation is dead so you don't need to worry about it. Good point good point. He died like a year ago so you're good. So the uh the the the the Nokia was was a bit of a bit of an interesting thing we wanted to do at the restaurant. So um I prefer the potato Nokia not the densey lumpy uh flour bomb Nokia.
+
+[50:35] So we go the I'll call the the Marco Kenora method which is it's rusted potato and double zero flour and salt and that's it. So we we did this method. I've I've made it a thousand and one times. Sometimes you get inconsistent uh potatoes, uh blah blah blah, or you're not you're not doing it right. So you just you turn into a chef on the situation, you start weighing everything, and that's the only way to do it.
+
+[51:00] So you weigh the milled potato, so bake off X amount of potatoes. Uh, we have a ratio we follow, and we uh make sure just we cook the hell out of the potato. Like you're gonna make baked potatoes for dinner at home, cook them an extra half an hour, like just leave them in the oven. Um, and then scoop out uh the guts out of it. Uh the most important part is that you have to be ready.
+
+[51:24] So you have to have all of your everything kind of like your flour out, all this kind of stuff, the salt out. You have to have your water boiling ready to go, or else you're gonna be in trouble. Um, as soon as the dough cools down, it gets gummy. And if you work the Nokia dough while it's gummy, it gets more gummy after you cook it. So what we do is we pass the potato through a food mill.
+
+[51:47] Um, you can obviously do this with a potato ricer at home, it's not an issue. Um handheld potato ricers, the potato ricer attachments for for uh stick blenders sound stupid, are great. R great. Go ahead. What is it attaches to a stick blender?
+
+[52:05] Yeah, there's a stick blender ricing attachment. It well, it goes in the opposite direction. So it's got like a little food mill like uh wings underneath. You push it down and it forces it up through the ricer, but it's real quick, and you know, you get those like uh those like like Montblanc chestnut like like streams of things coming out of the top of them. You do a couple of hits into it so you're not over processing it, and it's fast, and don't have to clean it out because I hate food mills.
+
+[52:31] It's a it's a tool that only Europeans, I think, have. No one in the United States makes enough potatoes for this to be an issue, and so they're very hard to find. But I I have a couple, but uh yeah. So we found at the restaurant because that's what we do. We want everything to work on the pickup.
+
+[52:46] Um so uh we made a little discovery. If we add just a very small amount of cornstarch to to the dough, um, when we add the flour portion, because we sift it over, so there's no lumps. The very small amount of cornstarch makes all of the difference um in holding the stability of the Nokia so it doesn't fall apart. Because the idea is you want as little flour as possible to hold it together, but you also don't want it to, you know, become a total mess in the boil. So um after you you get your rolled out your make your nokey shapes, you can probably watch 28 videos on the internet of how to roll the Nokia.
+
+[53:22] Um, and then we boil them in salted water for about two to three minutes, depending on the size of it, and then we shock them, which sets the starch. So you boil them and shock them, which sounds counterintuitive because you're like, hey, I want to eat these Nokia now, but you have to shock them because it sets the starch. And then we portion them, do whatever. And at the restaurant, when order comes in, we heat up our sauce of choice, whatever that is, could be a butter glaze, could be a cheesy sauce, could be uh, you know, tomato-based marinero, whatever. Um, cachouri pepe style is very popular for Nokia in the restaurant.
+
+[53:54] So we do this, and the you just heat them up in the sauce, don't reboil them. You don't need to do that. Step saver, just put it right into the sauce, heat it up together with the sauce. Uh liaison, fat in there, cheese, whatever, and serve it and need it, and they're great. They also were good as like uh after you blanch shock them to make a sort of a Nokia casserole that works really good.
+
+[54:17] We do that for holiday stuff. We did this this past year. We made like a truffled uh sort of uh mornay bechamella sauce, fonduta, and then um put the blanched gnocchi in there. So give them instructions, bake it in the oven for X amount of time, and it's like this cheesy like potato Nokie pie worked really good. All right, now how hot are the potatoes when you're scooping them?
+
+[54:38] Super hot. You gotta burn your hands, dude. Yeah, so what poor sap does that job? Nothing is crappier than pulling an oven out of uh pulling a potato out of the oven and then having to get the flesh out of it right now. I hate it.
+
+[54:48] Yeah. You just gotta be ready. Put like double triple glove up. You've got to spend the couple cents on gloves, right? Hold the kitchen towel, you know.
+
+[54:56] I did some tests on peeling, uh peeling, wrapping, and baking potatoes, but I don't have anything conclusive yet. Wouldn't it wouldn't it just dry out on the after you on the exterior anyway? Not well, not if you wrap it, right? I'm working on it, I'm working on it. Now let me ask you this.
+
+[55:13] Since you clearly have a lot of potato skins lying around, do you have a good uh potato skin recipe? Because most are garbage. They come out either leathery, they're not crispy. I haven't gotten the the true, like, you know, uh simplot style, you know, pre, you know, TGI Fridays potato uh potato appeal recipe down yet. You got something for me?
+
+[55:31] No, we we either throw them out or snack on them with a little bit of salt, maybe a little olive oil in the morning. It's a good Nokia's done in the morning, right? So it's one of the first things we do when we come in. So it's it's a good breakfast. So we just eat them or throw them out.
+
+[55:44] So no, I don't, I don't have a potato skin thing, but most of the time they're like it's like an like an oil mop in your in your deep fryer. It's kind of I know, I know, and they're never as crunchy as I want. How the heck do the pros do it? Someone out there let me know how they're done. Who who's a pro at potato skins?
+
+[56:00] You're saying like TGI? TGI Fridays, yeah. But they don't make them. It's like Simplot, or like someone, you know, someone in Conagra makes those things for them, right? So, because that's what they're doing.
+
+[56:11] So I I mean, I I just don't know how they do it. I've never had good. This is also, I know a lot of people out there like to make their French fries with the skins on. I don't really understand that because I've never had the skin of a potato that I have worked with get as crunchy as the non-skin side. But it's the flavor.
+
+[56:30] So you know what? I think um what's his name? Heston Blumenval did this. You if you're gonna do uh a blanch, a water blanch on your fries, put the skins inside of a sachet and put them into the water and almost make like a potato skin stock and then pull them out, then blanch your blanch your French fries. I mean, I have infused flavors into things when I'm boiling with the French fries.
+
+[56:51] I don't know. I don't know. Right now I'm working on I'm working on the potato chip. I have some Nastasia sent me her favorite uh West Coast potato chips. Uh you want to call out the brand, Nastasia?
+
+[57:01] Uh I don't have them here. You have them when you want to call it out. I can't because they're they're up in a thing. I'd have to go leave the radio show. I don't know.
+
+[57:10] No, we'll talk about it next time. But I like Nastasia doesn't mind a dark chip. She likes a hard and not hard in a bad way, because sometimes hard means bad in fried goods, but like crunchy. She likes a crunchy AF, like and doesn't mind it dark, so like kettle style, crunchy, thick, thick chip. She likes it thick and crunchy.
+
+[57:32] You can tell when they're kind of kind of burnt. I mean, I don't know. This is an argument. Yeah, listen. The Cape Cod chip, that's like the gold standard.
+
+[57:43] Cape Cods are relatively blonde. I think they must be putting a vacuum on that on that thing to getting them uh blonde. We know, we used to when we didn't want things to color up, we would just hit them with acid beforehand, right? But um, in the current test that I've been running, like I would put like six different potato chips out, and Dax jen, my wife Jen always went for the ones that she she doesn't like a greasy potato chip. She's not afraid of consuming infinite amounts of fat, right?
+
+[58:13] She'll guzzle the oil. Does that's not the problem. She doesn't like greasy chips, right? And I'm making I'm emphasizing the Z to emphasize, you know, why she doesn't like it. Greasy.
+
+[58:25] Dax, interestingly, because I wouldn't have pegged him for this, is interested in maximum potato flavor. So the like OG kettle style, which are fundamentally just chipped directly into the fryer. He always prefers those, even though they're darker in general, because he says they have the most potato flavor, which is something I haven't thought about before, versus all of my blanch ones, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think the average person's not gonna make a potato stock to do their their blanching with, but you know, maybe.
+
+[58:57] I don't know. Does anyone does anyone on this call? Did you guys wipe your hand while you took potato chips on your shirt or pants? Or do you grab a napkin like like a polite person? Uh okay, so the shirt is always a bad call because people can see your shirt.
+
+[59:14] Yeah. But it be do you do it like instinctively? Like it's just the closest thing to wipe your hands on. No, I just leave my hand. What I actually do, like when I'm testing the in the real life, what I get is I'll eat my hand will be filthy, I'll hold it in the air, and then I'll walk over to the sink, use the foot pedals and wash it off.
+
+[59:29] Oh, okay. Well, foot pedals are nice. I'm gonna do a thing eventually on foot pedals. I have to do something on foot pedals, uh because they're awesome. Well, and then the company that you use for all the parts will change on you and they won't sell the parts anymore.
+
+[59:43] I know, I know. Well, John, speaking of it, do you have the uh do you have the information on the new company that you're recommending to replace Mark Power? I haven't had the the heart to call any different company and actually run through all the part numbers to see what the changeovers are, but well, so when I spoke to uh Mark Tarzan's or the company yesterday, they recommended a master marketing fun low, S-U-N-L-O-W, but I'm not quite sure it fits the bill. We need to look into it a little more. So depressing.
+
+[1:00:11] Look, if TNS Brass goes out, and by the way, here's something I'm gonna say about buying equipment. Once once we, you know, people are starting restaurants again and you're buying equipment, or even at home, maybe. You know, commercial frit faucets are different from something else from from home ones in in some ways. Um every contractor, I don't understand this. I don't understand whether contractors get paid off by crappy faucet manufacturers or what.
+
+[1:00:38] But you're paying so much money, right? And they're always gonna recommend that you get a cheaper faucet. Always. Cheaper angle stops, cheaper faucets, right? And the truth is is that TNS Brass, who's, you know, far from ever giving me anything, if they, you know, as a company, like they've always been kind of a little bit of jerkweeds because they won't deal with humans directly.
+
+[1:01:05] TNS brass is phenomenally expensive if you pay retail. There is no reason to pay retail for TNS brass. And you you often don't, as a especially as a uh a cook when you're, you know, because you have a lot of other things to worry about. But if you just go online on eBay or anywhere else, you can get TNS brass, not like at half off, but you can usually get it at a third of retail, right? And then just hand it to your contractor and be like, install this, because the I'm not gonna say anything bad about Fisher or any of the other crappy faucets, crown the ones that they other people try to sell you, but they will work fine for six months, and you'll be like, see, there's no problem.
+
+[1:01:44] And then they will start to break. Other people's foot pedals will start to break, the faucets won't shut off right, because the people that you hire to work in your restaurant are going to be brutal on that faucet. So, like a high quality faucet that you can depend on and whose parts are easily changed is a blessing. I don't know. What do you think, Joel?
+
+[1:02:05] What do you think about uh high quality faucets? I mean, definitely. Uh the the problem that I see, especially within restaurants, because I'm gonna bring it up all the time, is that if if you buy it, there's someone there to break it. Literally, literally within within probably 14 seconds of the item arriving, so someone's gonna break it, no matter what. Like a real TNS brass, if you can afford to l wait and look on eBay and get one, they're so robo.
+
+[1:02:30] If you've ever used like real, like the the really nice chrome, really thick TS brass faucet stuff, and they're the real spray arms, they're so robo. Yes, they'll still get broken, but it's gonna take instead of 30 seconds, it'll take like a minute and a half, and you can like you can replace the the parts, they're serviceable. Yeah, and for God's sakes, get your contractor to screw the dang faucet down firmly. Because once once things start spinning and they're not firm anymore, then people brutalize it as it hits the beginning and the end. Another thing, go quarter turn.
+
+[1:03:07] I know I've said this on angle stops a million times, a million times, but if you if you have like uh if you if you have valves on your faucets that are multi-turn, people will gorilla them at both both ends, which is gonna very quickly ruin your valve, and those those ones strip out a lot faster, right? Yeah. So if you get the totally agree, yeah, it's it's terrible. I did quarter turn all the way. Quarter turn, quarter turn.
+
+[1:03:34] And you know, I'm gonna say something that's a little counterintuitive. I like the wrist handle ones because they're just less filthy, but it is true that you know, but they're easy to gorilla. You could put a lot of force on a quarter on a quarter turn with a wrist handle, but it I find it's superior from a sanitary uh uh maybe I'll do a video on it at some point. Yeah, everyone. This episode is brought to you by Hearst Ranch.
+
+[1:04:00] The Hearst family has raised cattle on California's central coast since 1865. Today, Hearst Ranch's signature product is their 100% grass-fed, completely hormone and antibiotic-free beef. The Hearst Ranches have always treated their animals with great care. Their cattle live a completely natural existence as foragers and grazers. Well-managed grazing fertilizes the land naturally, sustains a seasonal rhythm to the ranches, and produces a remarkable meat whose flavor is the authentic taste of the American West.
+
+[1:04:46] And now, HRN listeners in Arizona, Nevada, and California can get Hearstranch beef delivered right to their door through Larder Meat Company. Go to lardermeatco.com and shop the 100% grass-fed box to stock your freezer with her scratch beef. That's L-A-R-D-E-R meatco.com. Learn more about the storied history, farming practices, and conservation efforts of Hearst Ranch at Hearstranch.com. This episode is supported by Nourish and Flourish.
+
+[1:05:19] Nourish and Flourish features behind-the-scenes stories about artisans, producers, farmers, growers, and other makers in America, along with delicious and wholesome recipes. The latest issue of Nourish and Flourish is a special artisanal gift guide showcasing some of America's finest products, including everything from the farm and garden to eco-friendly home goods, kitchen and cooking essentials, bath and body, original art, blown glass, seasonal recipes, and so much more. Shop online to support local and buy local. Together, we can make a difference. Learn more at nourish and flourish.
+
+[1:06:07] He said yes for Joel. When you said pasta dryer is 130 degrees, do you mean Fahrenheit or Celsius? What? Oh, uh, I was I was referring to what someone told me because I haven't tested my gigantic pasta dryer yet. Um, but it goes up to 130 Fahrenheit.
+
+[1:06:23] That's around, I think, where where it caps out for the initial, and then it like it cools down for the rest of the drying. But it has to go through like I don't know if it's like trying to like flash off a bunch of moisture that's on the pasta. Um, and it just has to evacuate really fast. I'm not really sure behind the science behind that because I'm just diving into it now. But um, if you're gonna use a dehydrator at home, I would certainly go as low as possible.
+
+[1:06:44] Yeah, the other thing. But it kind of mimic, like, you know, it's uh it's a nice uh tempered day, you know, it's mild out. Uh try to mimic that sort of climate in the dehydrator. Look, there's another there's another issue, right? That like that needs to be addressed on a on a dehydrator.
+
+[1:07:04] Temperature is not a air temperature is not a valid way to measure this stuff. You need to know the relative humidity. So that's gonna be the difference between the wet bulb and the dry bulb temperature. And no small home dehydrator, X caliber style has a way to measure the relative humidity. So if you're at 130 degrees Fahrenheit and you're, you know, and 100% humidity, right?
+
+[1:07:29] So let's say Louisiana, right? Like that is gonna be a much different experience for the pasta than being at 122, let's say 122, something that could happen in Louisiana, although it doesn't, that's not that hot, but versus 122 uh in Phoenix as you know, at like 8% humidity, it your pasta is gonna experience something very, very different from a drying standpoint. So the temperature, when you're talking about especially low temperature drying, specifying temperature as separate from your humidity isn't gonna give you anything reproducible. Does that make sense? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[1:08:04] It's like you and I don't know why people don't, I don't know why no one's cracked the thing where they they deal with both, especially because at the low temperatures at which you're dehydrating, it's relatively trivial to at least tell you what the number is. It might not be relatively trivial to control it, but it's relatively trivial to for for you to know what what the number is. And since Devin did write in, I'm assuming this is Devin Patel, uh, Nastasia, it's late, but Devin wanted Phil Bravo to sing Dreaming of a White Christmas. Do you think we can get that next year? No.
+
+[1:08:37] Why not? You don't think he'll do it? No, I already asked him when I saw that question come in. Oh, and he said no. Well, we have a year to work on them.
+
+[1:08:45] And also, Devin would like uh Jackie Molecules to know, right? When he's going uh uh about spending the on on wine on a date, the amount or price of wine purchased is an investment. So a cheap bottle is like one night and 50 bottles is like a marriage proposal status. But I don't really know what that means. And if you're investing, Devin, in a nice wine so that you can get someone thinking that you are good, that could be an investment that lasts a lifetime.
+
+[1:09:12] Right? Right? I don't know. And they also wanted to uh say, and maybe any of you have experience here, Devin is making a lactofermented or was making a lactofermented um mustard and uh was wondering about the other spices like uh uh onion, paprika, celery seed, put it in before the ferment or after the ferment or both. Uh, I would if you had if you're gonna do this on an ongoing basis, I would definitely do an A-B test.
+
+[1:09:37] I would do a little before and a little after and see whether or not there's a fundamental difference. Most pickling recipes have you put this stuff in before. And I think a lot of that might be that a lot of the old school pickling recipes are based on some of the antimicrobial or anti-bad microbial effects that a lot of these spices have. Um but you know, if you're not worried about that, I don't really know whether anyone has done the you know, the the kind of overarching study of what it tastes like when you add it before versus what you add um after. And uh you also said that you noted that when you were cooking soup and you added vinegar to it, that the acidity from the vinegar uh went away, but the acidity and other things doesn't just make perfect sense to me because vinegar is, as we know, one of the very few volatile uh organic cooking acids.
+
+[1:10:25] That makes sense. Anyone? Anyone sense? I I prefer cooking on acid more than cooking with acid. Oh my god, have you done that?
+
+[1:10:32] No. But I but in my in my dreams I feel like it would it would it would be a lot more fun these days. I've never taken any sort of hallucinogen, but I just don't think I would react well. I don't know. So maybe we can actually can we all just trip together and see what happens?
+
+[1:10:48] I mean, it might be a fun experiment. I I don't know. I've never tried it. Nastasia is not interested in hallucinogens, right? Or you are, I can't remember.
+
+[1:10:55] No. No. We're supposed to add a lot of that. I don't know. I just don't know that I would I would I don't know that I would come back from it.
+
+[1:11:04] Uh but are we are are we mentioning so one of the reasons Nastasia doesn't want to come back right now to this side of the country is that in one of these major storms we had, because her house is right on the sound, and the sound, the Long Island Sound, is a relatively protected body of water. So having your house on the sound is a is a lot different from having it on the Atlantic Ocean where you can get like where you get pummeled on the regular, right? No one expects that their house is right on the sound is gonna get obliterated, and yet somehow some wind kicked up in one of these like you know, cyclone situations over here that we had. And it was the blizzard two weeks ago. And soaked all of your stuff, right?
+
+[1:11:49] Yeah, broke the windows, and now all the windows or the windows facing the sound are boarded up. So my friend went there yesterday, and she was like, yeah, it's pretty depressing in here with the windows boarded, and they can't fix them until it gets hot there. So I don't know when that is. Why are they grounded in with cement? Yeah.
+
+[1:12:08] And so um I was like, well, maybe I should spend a couple more weeks here. Because I don't know, looking at boarded up windows inside alone would be super sad. Why do you we know why do you think that we deserve anything more than that? No, I considered that, Dave. I knew that you would you would want me there, but everyone's telling me there's no point.
+
+[1:12:29] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh and are you allowed to tell about uh the dream in which I was unreasonable? Yeah, last two nights ago, I dreamt that Dave made made me make a football-sized uh field of fudge. And he walked away to take uh something, take care of his family, some family.
+
+[1:12:53] You said my dog was uh was causing problems. I had to go to the body. No, it was something family really. So it was definitely something like your kids or your dogs, and the fudge seized up before I can make it all the way around the football field to stir it, so all the nuts had just stayed on one side of the thing, and then Dave came back and was like, the hell, like you're supposed to stir the entire thing and all this. And I woke up like frantically, like, oh my god, I really effed up.
+
+[1:13:19] And then I called Dave and told him, and literally his response was, Well, why didn't you think of another solution to like make sure that the nuts were spread more? Like, as if it were a real thing. I played right into it. I was like, I I felt like I would have disappointed her if I didn't play. I was like, this here's what I said exactly.
+
+[1:13:37] I was like, Nastasia, listen. If you didn't think it was gonna work, you knew we were making a football field of fudge. You knew we were doing this. You saw me show up, you saw the ingredients go into the football field. If you didn't think it was gonna work, why didn't you say something then?
+
+[1:13:51] Why do you wait? Yeah, but then I was like, why did you run off to go take care of that? You should have we got in a whole five minutes. You couldn't just stir the fudge for five minutes, five minutes. You ruined the whole football field.
+
+[1:14:04] Five minutes. So that's what it's like, even in dreams. Normally I recommend against sharing dreams with other people because they tend to be like boring and way more nonsensical than you think. But for you guys, I recommend not sharing because it leads to actual uh arguments. That's amazing.
+
+[1:14:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So on the way out, since we have some chefs and other people, uh Chef Joanna, uh, you know, uh listener way I uh uh says, and sometimes into the chat room, which we always appreciate. Can uh Dave please comment on ceramic knives, yay or nay. They make me nervous.
+
+[1:14:36] I have like some petties, some pairings that uh there they but they make me nervous because I always feel like I can't resharpen them like when stuff happens to them. And I've broken the tip off of one. But Wiley uh loves them. Wiley he has a slicer, he uses sometimes. He loves the the ceramics uh for the price to slice ratio.
+
+[1:14:54] Uh what do you think, Joel? Um, I don't I don't keep things that are too precious or crap. Joel, in fact, I probably 10 years ago I stopped spending money on fancy knives because I just uh I don't I don't take good care of them. I have I have a good amount of utility knives and some Corinth style uh stuff that I've held on to over the years, and uh I buy the the ones that are a little bit less expensive, and then when I'm done with them, I just buy another one because they're like 70, 80 bucks. After two or three years, I get another one.
+
+[1:15:21] But the ceramic knives, um, I had one bad experience when I was a young cook and I lobbed off my knuckle with it. So I pretty much decided at that point that I don't ever want to be near one ever again. Oh yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
+
+[1:15:33] Hey, here's something else interesting. You know how I don't know whether any if anyone's heard this show, like a lot of them, uh, when I do talk about knife sharpening, I always mention my dislike for um the asymmetrical sharping sharpening that some uh Japanese Western knives have, where they'll have a different angle on one side of the blade than the other. I either prefer completely symmetrical old school European or completely traditional chisel chisel grind uh on um that they have, you know, in Japanese knives. And Wiley was like, well, you know, if you just um take some time the first time you use it and then just keep going on one side of a Japanese Western, you can turn a Japanese western into a chisel grind because they're so thin, it's actually not that hard to do it. And so he's been all of his Japanese western uh thin ones are um are sharpened chisel grind, which is pushed them for a 90 10 from a 7030.
+
+[1:16:33] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so and I think he's even worse like the only issue with a Japanese western is is that like uh if you want to go a true zero on the flat side, you need to it needs to be concave uh on the bottom so that the so that the spine edge and then the blade edge can rest to really take it off. So most people do do a very slight relief on the back side just because their knives aren't like concave enough to sharpen like a true chisel chisel. But I look I think anyone who I like know and deal with a lot, whose kind of opinions who who don't take opinions from other people without like actually thinking about it themselves, none of them really love the asymmetrical grinds they're just because I'll tell you this there there's kind of like people who buy very sharp knives but then don't want to take the time to sharpen them anything that gets in your way of sharpening is bad. So if you have a sharpening system that that is too complicated for you to use on a regular basis then I would rather you use something that makes your knife slightly less sharp right but that you could do on the regular because the overall the integral of sharpness over time will be a much larger number if you can like on a regular keep it relatively sharp than if you take it up to some high level of sharpness once a year.
+
+[1:17:56] And so like you know I do I would say you know on knives that I use a lot I almost you know weekly I'll touch them up. I'm not talking professionally I'm talking home use. You know what I mean? I'll I'll I'll weekly hit them up or so. Some knives the carbon ones that sharpen really well but are pain in the butt because they rust I'll sharpen them every time I use them right so I'll I'll just sharpen them every time I use them because it's not that hard.
+
+[1:18:17] So getting a knife that's easy to sharpen and getting a sharpening regime that you can actually tolerate that you can live with that's fast and livable is more important I think than getting the ultimate sharpness out of a knife. I don't know it's my twice that almost sounds like health advice that was good. Yeah but but don't you agree with me though like like I have some of these super fancy sharpeners but it's like a half hour thing. I gotta set up the base I gotta do the soaking I could set the angles. I got the different with the guides and all this other stuff.
+
+[1:18:49] And you know what the world? I don't like knives that are that are too sharp because if it puts you fine of an edge on it, it does that thing where it sticks into the cutting board. Oh yeah. Yeah. Also, I think a lot of people when they when they they sharpen and they get too sharp.
+
+[1:19:02] Remember, there's absolute sharpness, and then there's like how good are you for the angles that you choose. I don't go hyper hyper uh narrow on my angles. I prefer a slightly stronger edge. So, you know, if you're going to if you're using one of these supermodern steels and you're going to a very, very, very small angle on the bottom of the blade. Yeah, I mean, A, that sharpness isn't going to get maintained that long, and B, you're gonna stick.
+
+[1:19:30] Although I do like it when my uh traditional carbon Japanese ones, I take them to that level of sharpness where it's just like stupid sharp, where like it'll cut you if you look at it wrong. I mean, I do like that. You know what I mean? Um anyways. My uh my feelings on uh on sharpening.
+
+[1:19:51] All right. Well, uh Joel, thanks for uh coming on and answering some pasta questions. And so I know we have a lot of questions for uh next week, but hopefully there are ones that uh I can answer without having to pull in uh experts. So maybe we'll we'll just rip through some next week. John John and Nastasi will try to keep me keep me on track, maybe.
+
+[1:20:11] Yep, we can do that. All right, thanks, Joel. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simple Cast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:20:26] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage Radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash heritage Radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:20:52] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] My name is Samantha Garner and I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm a Cheeselandian because I take cheese seriously just like they do in Wisconsin. Go to cheeselandia.com to learn more, and if it's for you, sign up. Hello, welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave, older host of Cooking Issues coming to you.
+
+[0:31] Matt is in the actual bur uh booth at Roberta's Pizzeria. How's it? How's it look over there? Uh it looks kind of crazy. They've been doing some fun things in the backyard, but uh uh, what does that mean?
+
+[0:42] Oh, like crazy isn't busy. Oh no. Well, I mean, I don't even know. I don't think they're open. Well, let's let's get moving on.
+
+[0:54] We got Nastasia the hammer Lopez still in California. How you doing, Nastasia? Fine. We got uh you sound fine. Great.
+
+[1:02] Fine. We got Rebecca the Boondogler. Where are you right now, Rebecca? Are you in Brooklyn? Yeah, I'm in Brooklyn.
+
+[1:09] Boob uh uh doggling some boons, are you? You know, I have nothing to say to that. All right. I mean, you know, you wanted to come on. I figured you'd have something to say about that.
+
+[1:21] I asked her to come on for some color for some female color. Yeah, okay. That's okay. By the way, what is the what is the genesis of the term color commentary? I don't know.
+
+[1:36] I think so that it's not dull. Like black and white is dull, right? And then color is like vibrant, so color. So you think that that term goes all the way back to like the 70s when they were selling color TVs to people? I mean, like, I feel like I'm the only person here who's ever watched a black and white TV.
+
+[1:51] What I what I want the answer to be is that on black and white television, they would have one person whose job was just to describe what the color of each thing was that was being shown. That's what I want the answer to be. I love that. I love that. Especially like two.
+
+[2:06] Well, this is why, you know, I one of the reasons I think why there's such like a color contrast between uh different teams. I mean, imagine that in black and white. That's the blue person. It's the blue person. You know what I mean?
+
+[2:17] Like they both look identical in the same black and white thing. Or how the you know, Lone Ranger's t-shirt used to be a light blue, so that showed up super white. Yeah. Yeah. Uh isn't it hard to imagine like people in black and white with actual skin color?
+
+[2:32] Like Jimmy Stewart. You know, it's hard to imagine him as a person. That's not just a black and white person. I mean, he was in a bunch of color movies later on. He's got to watch those movies.
+
+[2:43] It's real boring. He was in a he was in a super boring, super like intensely boring movie called uh strategic air command, where it's basically just him chilling in a B-29, which is gotta be the most boring job on earth unless you're actually like just flying at high altitude in a B-29 for hours. Or like Charlie Chaplin, you know, like Hannah Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, you know what?
+
+[3:05] They need smell a vision for him. Apparently, one of the most intensely foul-smelling performers of all time. Just apparently, just like like swamping the chonies, like stinking it up strong. I feel like that's such a power move, you know. Like, if you're able to smell that bad and people have to deal with it, like, and you're so good at what you do, your job is like it doesn't matter.
+
+[3:29] Like, you smell awful, but we all want you here. Right. Wow. I mean, like, I have a number considered turning, yeah. A number of heritage radio engineers have tried this move and then they found out their power was not great enough.
+
+[3:42] It's like, guys, you gotta go go home. But like Rebecca comes on and be like like turning the man's stink into a power dynamic. Because it is. Think about it. Yeah, they have no choice in your life.
+
+[3:54] There's nobody better than someone not gonna say something. Well, maybe he's successful despite of the stink. I mean, like in other words, like you're making it a conscious decision on his part to be staken real bad. It's more, well, it's twofold. It could be that, but I think it's also at what point are the people around you not going to say anything to you because of how much power you have.
+
+[4:19] Oh, oh, okay. Wait, wait, there's two different things, right? There's that there's he has power because he's so he can get away with stuff, yeah, right. And then there is he is doing things to demonstrate that he can do whatever he wants. So it seemed to me to be two separate phenomena, right?
+
+[4:36] Right? Like, I think most of the time it's probably just this is me, I'm disgusting, and no one's saying anything, but I feel like I'm sure they're you know, they're testing it out, you know. Like they must know on some level. I mean, his his famous character is a tramp, right? So I mean, like it was going Daniel Day Lewis.
+
+[4:57] Yeah, exactly. His character is the tramp. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, Chaplin.
+
+[5:04] I do know I love that picture of Chaplin when he's uh giving America the the the high ho, he's like he's like F U Raggy and he like leaves because he was ejected because of the whole uh because he had his uh communist uh sympathies. You see, what exactly do you mean by a tramp? That's the name of his character, the little tramp. What does that imply? Like a street urchin.
+
+[5:29] I mean, but no matter what, it doesn't matter what he's doing. He could be in the you know, i up in the Yukon trying to like get gold and it's freezing out, and he's still Charlie Chaplin, the little tramp. You know what I mean? I think the only time he does anything different was in The Great Dictator, where I don't even know, maybe he's still playing that character. I haven't seen that movie in so long.
+
+[5:48] Um I haven't seen a Chaplin movie in probably decades. I mean, you know, I went through a phase where I looked at through all of the, you know, I went through a historical movie phase and I looked at it all and whatever. Whatever, whatever. Uh his granddaughter is an actress now. Last name Chaplin?
+
+[6:06] Yeah, Una. Yeah. Um, she was in something really good recently, but I forget what it was. Um, people can look it up. And we have not introduced, but yet he is here.
+
+[6:17] John. Uh, how are you doing, John? I'm doing well, thanks. Hanging out in uh in Connecticut in the land in the land of uh in the land of Connecticut based potato chips. Yes, that's exactly where I am.
+
+[6:29] Yep. Yeah, nice. And Charlie Chaplin was very good looking. Listen, that's a subjective thing. It's fine.
+
+[6:38] Okay. Well, also, he's not very tramp. I mean, remember, he had this. In Wikipedia, yeah, then it's not a Hitler stash if he had it before Hitler. And in Wikipedia, you know, the photos I'm looking at, he doesn't have a fing mustache.
+
+[6:57] Hey, herself. She self-centered. I heard it. It was good, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[7:02] I'm gonna start doing that too. Wait, but here's the thing. I'm looking at him dressed as a tramp, and like he's not as dirty as I would have expected. Like, this is a pretty clean tramp. Well, it might have been earlier in his career.
+
+[7:14] Like he wasn't sure he could get away with it, so he started out cleaner and then he just got smellier and smellier as he became more famous. Yeah, and Nastasia, I'm looking at that photo. He is super, he was super hot, very attractive, very attractive. I mean, uh okay. Wow, this is yeah.
+
+[7:32] Wow. This is the kind of lady content that Rebecca's on here for. Matt, Matt, put that photo as our as our photo of the phone. Yeah, is it is it public domain? It probably is as well.
+
+[7:43] Yeah, yeah, it's on the phone. I just pulled it. Just look for the one where it doesn't look like a tramp. Yeah. Obviously, you think I can't identify the hot photo?
+
+[7:52] I'm gonna be feeling I'll figure it out. Yeah. All right. Five wives. I mean, look.
+
+[8:02] He can do that. Not all at once. Eleven kids. That's a lot. I mean, with five wives.
+
+[8:09] That's kind of trampy. If you're rich and if you're if you're rich and you're gonna abandon your families, then it's not so many. Did he abandon his families? I don't know. Sort of necessarily, right?
+
+[8:21] That's an assumption. What is your assumption that on the fifth wives they spat out 11 kids? I I don't, I mean, all right. Well, I mean, you can still be present and not be married to the mother. Right.
+
+[8:34] Listen, I say, listen, I th I that is true. Well, while that is 100% true, and while the man was rich, right? Uh, I know that he had some of his families here in the US and had to leave the US and he never came back, right? But I'm just gonna say that uh there are 24 hours in the day, there are 52 weeks in the year, okay, and five sets of families to keep track of and be good. That's a lot.
+
+[8:58] Yes, but you're but you're assuming that these women wanted him around, and they're like, when's he coming back? Like maybe they're like God, he's not here and the money's still flowing. We were just in it for the abandoned. Abandoned. Yeah.
+
+[9:15] Which makes me think that you're like, oh, these women felt abandoned, or the children felt abandoned. No, that's like glad dad's not around. Nastasia, Nastasia, that that is. What did you mean? Like I'm thinking about the kids.
+
+[9:27] The women or the women. Yeah, but the kids could be like, Thank God dad's not around. He's really regularly, and then he's not by watching by watching his movies? No. But they they didn't all move to Switzerland, Rebecca.
+
+[9:44] All right. So uh guys, Charlie Chaplin is really good looking. Very good looking. I know, super hot. Oh my god.
+
+[9:53] Are you being serious, Matt? I want I want listeners to know that Nastasia before we got on was like, I'm implementing the two-minute rule. We've now done 12 minutes on Charlie Chap. This is how this always goes. We try and implement the question rule, but we spent like 30 minutes.
+
+[10:09] Have any of you ever like you don't even you guys like barely even know what he looks like? You don't even know, like you've never seen one of these movies apparently. You don't even know the characters in the movies, it's gross. It is literally his true face with a fake mustache and a hat. No, uh it's just not the same.
+
+[10:24] And also, uh he is in movies. I think the great dictator he doesn't play, he's not the tramp, but I f I think he probably has the mustache because I think he's literally doing a Hitler thing because that was in the 30s. And modern times, I I don't think he's dressed that way. I don't remember, but it's because having actually watched all of these movies. You can say he's not.
+
+[10:44] Also, I just want to say that we talked about a variety of things with under the guise of Charlie Chaplin, right? We talked about family dynamics. We talked about it. We talked about Nastasia assuming that I was talking about the women. Yeah.
+
+[10:57] Women and you know, yeah. The children. No, I was referring to the children, Nastasia. Yeah. Okay.
+
+[11:03] Children. So do we have uh cooking things? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna try to rip through all of the eight billion questions that we have, and Nastasia is only gonna keep us to 12 minutes when it has to do with Charlie Chaplin and his relative hotness.
+
+[11:18] Uh you know, which which picture are you looking at, by the way, where he's so hot? Wikipedia. Just the I'm actually working here, so I can't Wikipedia. I'll look at it later. Uh I have like you know, everyone's questions up and like recipes that I have to talk about, but you know, you guys talk about Charlie Chaplin.
+
+[11:34] Is it the picture where he's leaving on the boat now giving the F U? No, just sending the picture, Rebecca. I'm sending it right now. Young Charlie Chaplin. Also, I Googled Charlie Chaplin hot, and these are the images that came up.
+
+[11:46] So I'm just letting you know. It's it's a thing. All right, so you're self-selecting. No, I already did the regular no, I already did the right. No, well, I mean, I did the regular search first, and then now because we determined that he's hot, and you know, I made that conclusion on my own.
+
+[12:06] I did the Charlie Chaplin hot search. No one's saying you're not your own woman, Rebecca. You can come to your own conclusions on the hotness of chapter. Thank you. I appreciate that.
+
+[12:15] Uh, I wonder whether he's ever appeared in a diaper. Then he would be triple hot, right? What? We all know. We all we all know Rebecca.
+
+[12:26] I'm not gonna say anything more about this, but Rebecca likes a man in a diaper. Not that he needs a diaper. Dave, I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea what you're talking about. Wait, does no one know?
+
+[12:37] Oh, oh, by the way, by the way, by the way, uh, what you've just witnessed is two people lying at the same exact time. And in the same exact way. What do you need? This is a family diaper. I want everyone to know.
+
+[12:49] I want everyone. There's nothing. Rebecca, there is nothing more family than diapers. There is nothing more family than diapers. Like life begins with diapers and life ends with diapers.
+
+[13:03] I'll leave it at that. Dave, you're right on that one. Yeah. Alright. It's like it's like the famous uh riddle of the of the Sphinx.
+
+[13:10] Like, you know, who poops in a diaper in the morning, like poops in water in the in the afternoon, and poops in a diaper again in the evening. Oh, it's people, it's people. I say hot Charlie, by the way. That's not the hottest one, Rebecca. Yeah, but that's like a this is a pretty nice one.
+
+[13:28] First of all, Rebecca has sent me a picture of uh just like a random 20s guy with like a like like a Houdini brow that uh and I I don't know. I would not, I would you don't think this is Charlie Chaplin? You think I'm sending you false. No, I just don't think it's that hot. I just don't think it's that hot.
+
+[13:44] I think like, you know, if you would sent me a picture and I was like, oh, that's Paul Newman. Do the other one, Rebecca. Do the other one. Okay. And and people, but by the way, I don't know if you know this.
+
+[13:53] We're not in a visual medium here, people. This is not a visual media. That's true. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[13:58] No one knows what we're talking about. I mean, they can look at the video. They will, because we're gonna put photos on uh cover, the cover. Okay, Dave, look at that one. Look at that one.
+
+[14:07] They also have Google. Uh no, no, we we'll talk about this later. He just looks like a guy to me. He looks like a guy. That's a breakout room.
+
+[14:14] We'll do a breakout room where we only discuss trolley jobs. Oh my goodness. Yeah, but I encourage you guys to actually watch a movie first so we can discuss it based on the person's actual talents. Watch um the Yukon one is famous because he's got the little thing where he picks up the here's a food thing. He picks up the rolls with his forks and he does the little can can dance with the uh with the with the rolls.
+
+[14:36] Anyway. I think I'm gonna go with the dictator. I feel like that feels more appropriate for what we're going through these days. Nobody liked it when it came out because he was making a lot of a political statement. I look again, this is my memory from a long, long time ago.
+
+[14:49] But they were like, make a funny movie already. Which is funny, but it's not like you know what I mean? Yeah. John, have you watched any of the chaplain stuff? I have, yeah.
+
+[14:57] What the gold rush is political, is that what you're saying? No, no, no, no. The dictator. Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay.
+
+[15:03] The gold rush is the classic one where he just like he's in the cabin, it's snowing, he does the thing with the dinner rolls. Like, that's the classic stuff, right? And then uh, you know, he did the one where the but then his political ones are the one where he's in the factory, right? Which where he shows his his leanings there, and the other one is the obviously the dictator, which was done, I believe. 1940.
+
+[15:24] Yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought it was the 30s. I didn't realize it was that late, but yeah, that's right before he you know gave us the heave ho. And I actually did he leave the US after the war. Did he leave before or after the House on American Committee?
+
+[15:36] Can't remember. Unclear, but I just want to let you know that when I was um finding additional images to send you, there are a lot of very creepy Charlie Chaplin dolls. Um as well. So he had to add the word Charlie Chaplin. There are a lot of very creepy dolls out there.
+
+[15:54] But it's the dollars. Specifically Charlie Chaplin dolls. Um Stasia is a collector of dolophonnalia. I'm not. Really?
+
+[16:01] What do you mean? Applehead dolls? Applehead doll books. Oh my god. Every Apple doll head book I own is yours.
+
+[16:10] Uh a gift, you mean? It's not mine. It's yours. Once you make you make me keep all that stuff so that you're not the applehead stereotype. Now the stereotype of the middle-aged man living in in lower Manhattan who making apple head dolls.
+
+[16:26] Yes. That is a vicious stereotype. That's right up there with uh, you know, person who storms the capital, right? Middle-aged man in lower Manhattan making applehead dolls. Nastasia, you're the one that didn't want to be the stereotype of the uh of the hell's kitchen uh lady who instead of cats has apple head dolls, right?
+
+[16:44] And yet you made me do that three times. Made you no longer chose to do that. We haven't actually discussed this. So the not well received Netflix series, Nurse Ratchet. Um they feature Applehead dolls in it.
+
+[17:01] See, Dave, I told you it was gonna catch on. I mean did you not hear what she just said? Not well received. So not the app. There's um there's a scene where they're they're making apple heads.
+
+[17:13] I think it's to soothe the mentally uh ill patients. Nothing is less soothing than uh an apple head doll. I mean, it's they're horrifying. I mean, the first time Dax saw an applehead doll picture of it, he was like, get that away from me. I never want to see that picture again.
+
+[17:29] And then you did it in real life. Well, I was threatening to give it to him as his Christmas gift. He's like, I'll burn it, I'll crush it, I'll put it in the in the in the garbage disposal. Dave, are you gonna use um Rebecca's sous vide technique in your sous vide book? Why are you trying to first of all, why are you trying to get me to say negative things about Rebecca?
+
+[17:50] And why are you cranking me on the case? Yeah, Nastasia, is that why you brought me on? No, I just thought of it right now, thinking about our. And first of all, how is that Rebecca's fault? Yeah, that was your mess up, not mine.
+
+[18:01] Not my mess up. Yeah, because you were the one that first said it took us, people. Here's some cooking pointers. You read between the lines, what happens? First of all, don't use food as a doorstop.
+
+[18:13] I'm just gonna go ahead and say, don't use food as a doorstop, right? Especially food that you're gonna eat soon, right? Why? Not just because you might step on it or gross stuff might fall into it that could get on the bag and then get in, although that's also true, right? But because you're not looking at it because it's not at eye level anymore, right?
+
+[18:31] So don't use it as a doorstop. Uh secondly, learn the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit and have some sort of mental idea of like at what temperature things need to be to start cooking. And then lastly but not least, why don't you check on the food you're cooking every once in a while? These are some tips from Dave. Uh and I'll leave it at that.
+
+[18:50] But Nastasi, why are you trying to crank me? Yeah. So mean. What's up? What's up with this?
+
+[18:54] I was thinking about your book, and then I Rebecca and I were talking about sub parties earlier this morning. No, we weren't. We were talking about what I'm doing for Mike's birthday, which I hope is not a sub party. Yeah. Uh well, uh again, just to let you guys know, this is c this is classic.
+
+[19:13] An attempt to get me to spool off into Zanyville and look like I'm the ogre. Well, I think it's just both of you guys would be ogres in that situation because you you know are in control of your words and what you choose to do. And Nastasia is the one bringing it up. So I would say two ogres. Hypothetically, if we were to have this conversation, which we're not.
+
+[19:37] So get to the questions. Oh, now get to the questions. All right. Joe Thompson wrote in a long time ago, and I'm and I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to talk about something uh similar to what you asked, Joe, because I never heard back from Adam Leon. So Adam Leonti wrote a book called The Flower Lab, in which he talks about uh fresh grinding, uh, you know, baking bread with uh freshly ground flour.
+
+[20:03] He grinds all of his own flour, and I have to say his bread is delicious, right? Nastasia, we can we say this. But uh, but we had this question, and for weeks Nastasia tried, I tried, no response. He doesn't have to be a good idea. The man does not want to talk to us about your question, Joe.
+
+[20:21] So I'm just gonna use this as an opportunity to how to teach all of you, you know, if if uh what's what how does it how does it work if I teach you how to do this, you can do it? Is that a fish that thing? Yeah, but I I usually mutilate it into something horrible. Like if you get punched in the face once, you get punched in the face once. But if you buy a uh anyway, whatever.
+
+[20:43] Joe wrote in, good morning, Nastasia, and the rest of you have the sense up on air. A few months back, I listened to an interview with Adam Leonte about his new book and was inspired to hop onto the sourdough bandwagon once the worldwide grain mill supply rebounded after COVID hit. By the way, it's still hard to get one. They're still like will sell out as the as they get sold. So, you know, kudos to the the grain mill people.
+
+[21:04] I'm glad you didn't end up going out of business, and I'm glad that people actually buy your products now. Uh now that I've lost any shred of your meaning Nastasia's respect, I tried out the flower lab recipe, rye bread recipe, and it was a complete disaster. Uh after cleaning up the dough waterfall that cascaded down my kitchen cabinets while the bread was rising, the final volume, the final product was more dense, gummy, rye pudding than bread. By the way, anytime you overload uh the high okay. Anytime you overload the hydration on uh bread past the point where it can structurally hold, right?
+
+[21:41] So it's it's too liquid, and it will just the bubbles will boil up and out before it sets and it collapses. So, you know, you'll uh you'll get lighter area, lighter area, and then boom, super dense. Um rye pudding, then bread. Uh the volume in the recipe seemed off from the beginning, and I was wondering if you had any word of passing uh these questions on to Adam to help me. Uh and so here's the thing, right?
+
+[22:04] Uh by the way, the uh Joe is squarely in our demographic mid-30s, white guy engineer living in the burbs with wife and kids, in case you were curious, Nastasia. Were you curious? She's gone. Uh so not curious that she is in fact gone. So I'm gonna go to the house.
+
+[22:22] I'm here. Wait, I didn't hear what you said. What did you say? Of course not. What'd you say?
+
+[22:28] It's like the one hour where we actually need to listen to each other. They had to close the window because there's someone drilling. Oh my god, even in California. Yes, I can't. They've been jackhammering every day at my apartment outside the window, and they're like, you know, what's a good time to start jackhammering?
+
+[22:43] 7 a.m. You should wake up. Right right outside my window. Uh Nastasia, when you move back, you said you're gonna specifically look for places that are entirely built, right? Well, yeah, or have like a park in front of them.
+
+[23:00] Oh yeah. Well, well, let's get rich. Um I mean, like, I don't know if you know this, people, but if you want to live with a view of a park in New York, like the best the best thing to do is to get rich. Well, you could do Grammarcy. Oh god, that's eat no, that's douchey.
+
+[23:17] Yeah, also that's douchey. Well, hold on, hold on, hold up. Nastasia Lopez just said that people who live on Gramercy are douchey, and all the people who live on the upper east side overlooking the park aren't the douchey people in all of Manhattan. Yeah. No.
+
+[23:36] Well, it's not about the park, it's about looking out on something that's green instead of looking out on something that is a jackhammer. I'm just gonna jump in here and say that, and this is from I I don't know, I guess like years of experience, which I know you have way more than that with the Nastasia, but like trying to convince Nastasia to live in a different neighborhood or uh anything of the sort is very challenging. Oh no, it's a losing battle. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to convince her, I'm just saying I was just listing parks, and she was like, that's not even a park, because you need a key. Like, I don't even I know she's not gonna live there because for those of you that don't know, Nest like Manhattan is an island that's only a couple of miles wide.
+
+[24:21] Like if, right? It's a thin long island. It's not long, I want to get a scientist on this. Because I thought about it the other day, and I was getting angry in the clip. I want to get a scientist on it.
+
+[24:33] Let people know. Nastasia Lopez. Is it what I'm thinking about? Yes. Yes, yes, but people don't know yet.
+
+[24:39] So let me tell them first. Nastasia Lopez believes that the sunlight on the west side of Manhattan is better than the sunlight on the east side of Manhattan. No, I didn't say better. Yeah, I didn't say better. It's longer.
+
+[24:53] You get it longer. Okay, that's even more nutty. But and she says that this is true regardless of what buildings are between you and the setting sun. If any. If she has not discussed what happens if you live in Battery Park City, where you are both east and west side.
+
+[25:13] We have not discussed this. No. Okay. But I would like I want someone to confirm a scientist to confirm that if you live on the west side of something. The earth is a ball.
+
+[25:26] It is a ball. I want a real scientist. No matter where you live on that line. In terms of east and west, you are on a circle that is spinning. Right?
+
+[25:40] Therefore, you can choose any place on that circle, and you will experience the same number of hours of daylight and nighttime. Now, if you move up or down, if you change your latitude, sure, you can change the stuff. But remember, Manhattan is a roughly north-south-oriented thing. And so when you go east to west on Manhattan, from the east side to the west side, you're pretty much staying on the same radius circle of rotation that the Earth is on. So you know, it might be something with the reflection of the light though.
+
+[26:17] Like it would be a scenario. So by but you know, by this, Nastasia, I know where Nastasia needs to live, Rebecca. Elizabeth, New Jersey. It's right across the river, it's slightly more west. So they get slightly more.
+
+[26:31] And now that you're in California, like every day eight days long. Every day is eight days long. Hawaii. Because it's longer. The further west you go, it's longer.
+
+[26:40] So now your days are eight days long because you're 3,000 miles further away. Although the sun does set later than it does where you guys are right now. Whoa, whoa. When the sun sets. I mean, obviously, obviously the sun sets depends on where you are, but also the sunset depends on where you are in your time zone, right?
+
+[27:01] So like you could be, if you're all the way on one edge of a time zone, you can see your the sun sets almost an hour different from when you're on the other edge of the time zone. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yes. How about that rye bread question? Yeah.
+
+[27:17] Rye bread. Let's try it. Okay. So uh it does look to me like the the numbers in the Leanti thing, like there might be uh like a typo on on one of the things, but here's what I typically do when and this is this is hopefully perhaps the only useful thing you're gonna hear out of my mouth today, because clearly nothing else has been useful. Uh and you know, if the future is like the past, I will say nothing more useful today.
+
+[27:45] Um, like the child abandonment stuff was pretty good. I don't know how useful it is. Just keep going, don't respond. Um I'm gonna talk a little bit about how like how I check recipes and how I develop recipes, right? And John and I actually spoke about this uh on the on the phone yesterday, and John, you said you use a similar kind of a thingamajig, right?
+
+[28:10] Yeah, yeah. So first first thing you need to do before you do anything is you need to go out and taste somebody's product that you like, right? Find a product, find something that you like. You need a target, right? Now sometimes you can't have the target, and you need to you need to kind of cook in the dark, but it's very difficult to know what you're trying to achieve if you haven't had the thing in the real life.
+
+[28:36] Now, again, you can't always do that. Uh, but actually nowadays, it again it's not the same. You can go to someone like Gold Belly, let's say you're researching Naccatish meat pies, which are delicious, but you've never been to Nacadish over to the Cane River in Louisiana. You can go on Gold Belly now and someone will ship you frozen Naccatish meat pies, and you can at least see whether you're close to what they think a good one is, right? Okay, so first of all, get your toy.
+
+[28:58] Or you can just buy the product and eat the product and be like, this is the best ever. But what did I just say? Didn't I just say buy the product? Yeah, and then stop there because you're never gonna achieve what they're doing. Okay, that's uh really helpful in a cooking advice show.
+
+[29:16] That's really helpful information in a cooking advice show to tell people just don't bother cooking. No, but again, that's it, people, we're done forever! No, we're gonna be able to do it by all your food. We're beetle beep beep. This episode is brought to you by Wisconsin Cheese.
+
+[29:41] My name is Samantha Garner, and I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm a Cheeselandian because I take cheese seriously just like they do in Wisconsin. Cheese Landy is a community for loud and proud cheese lovers brought to life by Wisconsin Cheese. I know that I can always cook amazing food with their cheese, and it's even good enough just to snack on. As a Cheeselandia member, I know there is always a supportive community behind me who always gets as excited as I do about cheese.
+
+[30:04] Go to Cheeselandia.com to learn more, and if it's for you, sign up. Check us out on Instagram at Cheese Landia. This episode is supported by Nourish and Flourish. Nourish and Flourish features behind the scenes stories about artisans, producers, farmers, growers, and other makers in America, along with delicious and wholesome recipes. The latest issue of Nourish and Flourish is a special artisanal gift guide showcasing some of America's finest products, including everything from the farm and garden to eco-friendly home goods, kitchen and cooking essentials, bath and body, original art, blown glass, seasonal recipes, and so much more.
+
+[30:46] Shop online to support local and buy local. Together, we can make a difference. Learn more at Nourish and Flourish. We're done! First of all, Nastasi, here's where I think you're wrong.
+
+[30:59] Here's where I think you're very, very, very wrong. And I've been thinking about this a lot because you say this all the time. Yes. There is a lot to trying to do something at least once to see what the issues are in in making something and then saying you never need to do it again. But to like figure out, it's like I went through a thing with cheese.
+
+[31:19] I'm never gonna make the world's best cheese, but I went through it so I could understand kind of like what was going on, like how hard it is, like what the different variables are, and it helps me appreciate other people's products more. So actually doing something actually helps you appreciate other people more and is a good thing to do. I can see that. I can see that. Alright.
+
+[31:41] So, uh, what I do then is I research, and it used to be much harder. It used to be I used to go to the New York Public Library back when they had books in the New York Public Library and not just computers to type out your resume on. Uh I would go and I would read every single book on the subject and write down the different recipes. But now it's so much easier. Get an Excel spreadsheet or you know, word or whatever if you can't use Excel, and then go look at a bunch of recipes, a bunch.
+
+[32:09] And you can look at the reviews if you want. A lot of times I look at the reviews, and if if something has a lot of bad reviews, I see why they say it's bad, and then I look at their recipe and I see whether or not what they have in their recipe is different from other people's recipes. And what you'll do is if you look at, let's say, five, six, seven recipes, you'll will you'll notice trends, and then you'll see where particular recipes are different from trends, and then when you read reviews, you can see kind of how that difference from the from the rest of the recipes in that same trend, how that difference translates to how other people were making the product in the finished uh thing. Now, again, ignore anyone who was like, I didn't have flour, so I used buckwheat. No, it's not, it doesn't work.
+
+[32:55] You know what I mean? Like you have to like focus on reviews where people have actually made the recipe. Um, so I just did a single recipe uh look. I looked at Leonti's recipe for rye bread versus um uh King Arthur's uh recipe for uh full corn brood. I would for rye for what he's doing here, I would look at full corn broat as the as the standard.
+
+[33:17] I didn't look at the picture of what he's doing, but it looks like it's a full corn broat thing, and indeed, the hydration is is way higher. Interestingly, um both have starters or preferments that are at 100% hydration. Uh, but then um Adam goes on to have a much higher amount of water such that it makes more sense if it was the water, the 900 grams of water were for both the 500 grams of flour and the 500 grams of course rye in the bread dough, even so be a relatively high hydration. Uh, when you're doing bread specifically, when you're putting all of the data points into your Excel spreadsheet, what one of the things I like to do is look at total liquids versus total solids, and then also certain ratios. Recipes that have eggs, look at the egg to water or egg to milk ratio so you can kind of because that's important.
+
+[34:06] So, like when I'm doing like le like brioche or or or liège waffles or things like that, I'm looking at um overall hydration ratios. I'm looking at fat to starch ratios, and I'm looking at uh milk to egg ratios. And without even like knowing like a lot lot, by just lining up all of the ingredients in like you know, across five, six, seven columns of an Excel spreadsheet, you can then choose your own starter recipe of which one of those you want, and then make sure you write it down and then take notes on it, and then uh you can adjust, and then after you're finally done, you can pitch the Excel spreadsheet and just keep your own recipe. And that's how I do recipe development. All right, that makes any sense.
+
+[34:50] Perfect. That may John, since you actually enjoy recipe development, that make it sense or no? Yes, that makes sense. All right. Now, are we on our two minute clock now, Styles?
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+[35:00] Wait, we need to just mention that our newsletter's coming out today. Quick mention it. Newsletters coming out today. How do they get it? Um I'll put a link in the show notes.
+
+[35:12] Thank you. And and by the way, the one's in the newsletter. You are talking about something you got for Christmas. Uh John's talking about New Year's recipes because poor guy wrote this thing before. Which New Year's which which New Year's recipes did you do?
+
+[35:33] I thought so much New Year's recipe. Well, there's one for um beans, you know, and uh like Mashama Bailey's recipe for beans. That recipe for New Year's. It was great. Okay.
+
+[35:44] Can I tell you something about well, finish what it is and remind me beans. Remind me of beans. Uh well, I don't know. Then I also included a history of toasting and the science of like when you pop open the champagne bottle at a certain temperature, there's a little blue cloud that happens between the cork and the and the bottle. So you're talking about toast of things you do with friends and family with glasses of uh of champagne and not the pieces of bread that become crunchy.
+
+[36:10] Correct. Yeah. All right. So beans. Beans.
+
+[36:14] He's like, I don't care what Nastasi and Rebecca had it. Oh, she is the case. No, it's fine. It doesn't matter. Oh, come on, please.
+
+[36:22] Go on. Well, I actually I'm interested for Dave to know about Booker actually has a violin Nastasi. Do you want me to go have him get it and play something for you? Please. I think actually I talk about the violin in my section, so that's very relevant.
+
+[36:35] For real? Yeah, I do. About a violin. Well, I talked about two care packages that I received for the holidays. One from Nastasia, which was pretty incredible and very thoughtful, and included a like a watercolor paintingslash card that she made for me and a scrub made with sand from the beaches of Malibu.
+
+[37:00] So I just wanted to say thank you, Nastasia. What do you mean a scrub? Like a body scrub. And the body scrub has actual sand in it. Yes.
+
+[37:10] Nastasia sends me very nice care packages of things like citrus and like little tiny banana guavas. Uh don't ever send anyone out there don't ever send me sand. Do not ever send me sand. Well that's why she sent it to me. Yeah I'm just saying I'm just saying I obviously know this is why we're gonna win the colleagues show yeah the colleagues yeah the colleague show yeah um but the other the other package I received is from one of my best friends from growing up Eliza and she moved to Florida like a year ago and all of us in our friend group looked at her like she had you know two heads we're like what are you doing?
+
+[37:50] Um but she especially during you know COVID and everything she's living like a very you know charmed life. She has a huge garden that she made outside and so she's just constantly sending us photos of all of these amazing tropical fruits she's growing and she's in South Florida. So no she's so she's in uh she's outside of Tampa like that's relatively north for tropical stuff. Yeah. So it has to withstand a light frost then I guess so I mean she's also she went to Warren Wilson college and has worked on farms for a long time.
+
+[38:26] So she's you know if anyone can do it it's her um but she also likes goes swimming with manatees on the weekends, um, which she did this past weekend. Um, but she made me a shrine to our old orchestra conductor. Um, was the holiday gift that I got. And it was pretty incredible. But I played the violin and Eliza plays the harp.
+
+[38:52] Um so if you want to learn more about what a shrine to an orchestra conductor conductor looks like, you should check out the newsletter. Harp, huh? Hey, I want to learn an instrument where it takes up my whole house, but I don't want it to be as versatile as a piano. What do you got? How about she didn't live in an she didn't grow up in an apartment in New York, so they had plenty of room for the harp.
+
+[39:18] But um, anytime like she still plays it, like she'll play it for weddings and different events and stuff. But moving it is such a challenge. Harp is great if you're like really rich. Like when I was like a little kid, I took piano lessons, and my teacher, she had like you know, the Steinway grand, not the baby grand, like the full grand, because I guess her she was rich, I guess. And she had the full-size harp.
+
+[39:41] And when you have that giant, you know, that giant living room with the windows with the fancy curtains, and over near one corner you have that giant kind of like gold gilt harp. Like it's a serious, it's a serious sign of wealth right there. Again, not a poor person's instrument. It's a power move. It is a power move, much like smelling real bad.
+
+[40:01] What about smelling real bad at the harp? Um that I guess if you I don't know. Does anyone have the power to do that? Like if you're I don't think the real power move is to talk about nitrogenating coffee cocktails. Well, another thing, beans.
+
+[40:19] See, you guys tried first of all, Nastasia got out of saying what she wrote about. Nastasius is incredible. Talk about lines of surprise. Very good. Okay.
+
+[40:29] Okay. It's very good. So on beans, how many of you, and I think this is a family friendly word, uh how many of you have uh fart problems with beans. Really? Yeah, nothing.
+
+[40:45] Like in general? In other words, like I don't eat like I don't eat beans every day. So like I'm not saying that I walk around going, but like when you have beans, I feel I feel the bloat. You know what I mean? Like when I make beans, I have beans, I feel the bloat.
+
+[40:58] If I eat a lot of beans, like for instance, like this going back to New Year's. Like New Year's, I do the hopping John every year, I get a little bloated. I'm not saying like it's a nightmare, but I get a little bloated. You know what I'm saying? Uh none of you guys have that problem?
+
+[41:11] No. I'm the only person or you still want to admit it. A lot of people say I just don't think it's noticeable enough I can't say let me just put it this way. Harold McGee started writing on food and cooking because beans make people farther that was the whole thing. Shoot Dave, we're supposed to talk about gene lester.
+
+[41:29] Okay, let me finish beans and then we'll talk about gene lester. I thought you were going to have Harold on to talk about uh gene less no we're not having Harold on. Okay. So uh beans have uh non-digestible uh polysaccharides in them that you can't digest them but then when they I think raffinose is one of the ones that they look at for you know to to to look at to see like what its fart potential is right and um but your gut bacteria can, right? And so if you eat a lot of beans, so you know Matt as a vegetarian, maybe eats more beans than I do on a on a date on a you know weekly basis.
+
+[42:05] And so he's built up the ability to have non-gassy responses to beans, which is true, right? So the more beans you eat, the less gas you're gonna get every time you have beans. That's just a true fact. Now, uh, for those that are very affected by it, right? You can use this pill called beano.
+
+[42:23] And beano is an enzyme that you take right before you eat the beans, and it breaks down the sugars in your gut, right? Uh, so that you uh don't have this problem. Now, other people, what they try to do, and one of the reasons to pre-soak beans isn't just cooking, but a theory that you'll leach out some of these uh you know, water soluble polysaccharides and then dump them down the drain with the with the drain water, right? So, like uh and a lot of people, when they're adding things like bay and other things, are trying to do things that are gonna break down these polysaccharides, break down the filming ability of the beans. Bino is um not uh beano is not doesn't survive cooking, so they don't tell you to use it beforehand.
+
+[43:03] But I did a study, a small study, because I only did it once or twice, of adding of doing a warm water pre-soak at uh 100 degrees Fahrenheit for uh an hour and a half in beans that have been like so. I soak the beans for an hour to get let the water in so that the beans were somewhat hydrated. Then I added the beano and I let them soak for another hour at 100 before cooking, and I have to say, almost no bloating on that sucker. Almost no bloating. So I'm working on, I'm working on a beano-based fartless bean uh situation.
+
+[43:34] Interesting or not interesting. I mean, you guys don't have problems, so maybe it's not interesting to you. I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people. Yeah, I want to know what exactly is the scientific process for this.
+
+[43:44] Like how many times are you gonna do this? Well, the real way to do it, right, is that I would need to find someone with uh a GCMS who's interested, and you cook a re a sample using a regular one, a regular technique, and then you make a sample, and they just test it for rapnos levels and uh and other you know um undigestible polysaccharides, and then they can just tell you, oh yeah, like the the technique that you're using knocked uh the rapnos levels down from you know X to Y. And if you really want to do it, you'd do you'd send them like four samples, like uh, well, you do you do replicate, probably like a like a replicate of three, but aside from the replicate of three, you'd probably want to say, okay, listen, the the repeated soak, I'm gonna test that with and without the enzyme versus not you know not pre-soaking at all, etc. etc. You ever notice how all the people who say that you shouldn't soak beans, the test they do is on quick cooking beans.
+
+[44:35] They never do the test on real long cooking beans. You ever notice that? No. Okay. Well, that would make sense as to why they say that then.
+
+[44:43] Nastasi's like, Nastasi's like, why cook beans? I can just buy beans cooked. True. Okay, Gene Lester. Uh so Nastasia Lopez likes, well, okay.
+
+[44:56] So Nastasia Lopez, Harold McGee, and I went to uh Eugene Lester, who is a former IBM exec. Uh, he had like, I, if not, I mean it's the best I've ever seen, but like one of the greatest collections, private citrus collections anywhere on earth, true or false. Yeah. Uh, just you know, up the mountain from Watsonville, which is where they grow a lot of the strawberries in California. And uh every year the fruit explorers would go there and they would have like a citrus party, and Harold McGee got us a semi private hangout with him.
+
+[45:30] This is like five years, five or six years ago now, with him and with a couple uh of other people who were like we were horny in. He was showing his two friend the owner of the place, Eugene Lester, was showing his two friends this, and Harold convinced him to let Nastasia and and you know the three of us horn in, is what happened. And so then we we ate lunch with them, and Nastasia has never forgiven anyone for this lunch, even though like this comes up all the time. It does. It's it's the weirdest thing.
+
+[46:01] I don't understand where the where the enmity comes from because the guy didn't have to let us into his house at all, and you know, instead let us taste like you know, a hundred varieties of citrus, and after you know, lunch we had free reign of the didn't have lunch, Dave. That's the thing. Everyone had lunch and they didn't feed us, so we just sat there for three hours. It wasn't three hours, and who cares? Yes, it was.
+
+[46:23] It wasn't, and who cares? Anyway, uh he died. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what Nastasia wanted me to say.
+
+[46:34] Well, he meant something to you. I mean, his collection. I I only met the guy once. I was super psyched. I think about his collection of citrus quite often.
+
+[46:44] And uh, you know, he had a good fruit knife. He also collected us, I forget whether it was Mercury's, like oh like uh old Mercury cars and blocks of wood and a specific kind of uh classical uh music recording, although I don't remember which one it was. He was a collector of things, he collected citrus, I believe it was like 39 or something mercs, uh, chunks of wood from all over the world, and a certain kind of classical music. Was am I missing anything, Nastasia? Yeah, we didn't get lunch.
+
+[47:16] But he also, you know, opened up his home to you guys, which is very nice, and shared his collections. Yes, yeah. And I didn't want to eat any food anyway because I there was more space for citrus to shove in my face. And then what happened, Dave? I pooped pure orange juice.
+
+[47:29] It was amazing. In my bathroom. Your bathroom. Harold McGee's bathroom. It was Harold McGee's.
+
+[47:44] Poor Harold. Poor Nastasia. That was the best smelling poo ever. It was the only time I was like, I was like, my poop don't stink. Boom!
+
+[47:52] I loved it. Uh if I could currently not poor Dave. Wow, okay. No, it was amazing. He was like, This is the best day of my life.
+
+[48:00] I was like, I was literally like, this is amazing. Like, oh, a little bit of a I'm not gonna go too far into depth on it. But let me just say, in the ongoing, if you're keeping track of the Carpenter Arnold household, that's my house, the Carpenter Arnold household consumption of squid ink. Let us just say that the that that inky that inky color from squid ink sticks with you all the way through when you consume ridiculous amounts of it. Most leave it at that.
+
+[48:34] That makes sense. I'm not shocked by that at all. Yeah, no, apparently, you know, um it's unpleasant, but yeah, not not necessarily shocking. All right. Wait, can we just go back to this for a second?
+
+[48:48] So when you were experiencing this, you know, pure moment of bliss on the in the bathroom next to where Nastasia was sleeping, like 4 a.m. Yeah, first of all, Nastasia's conflating two different things. No, I'm not. You are. That was that was the Merle Haggard trip.
+
+[49:06] You are. Well, when did I wake up and I say what said that was the Merle Haggard trip? That was the same thing. No, it was not. Okay.
+
+[49:18] Okay, but then why were you in the bathroom again? And I had to say, Are you okay? You didn't, as that was the first. I came out and told you about the orange shoes. So I'd like to say that.
+
+[49:29] I need to share this. There was three people staying in Harold's basement that first day. Both of us tried to be polite and wait for everyone to be asleep and go, and Nastasia woke up for both and then like never stopped talking about it ever. Stop, stop, stop. Consequently.
+
+[49:47] Consequently, consequently, I will never stay anywhere near a room with Nastasia ever again. Ever. And then for what for years. For years, she's like, What do you mean? You're being you're so mean to me.
+
+[50:00] I'm like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. And then the one time you got your own room in a hotel, you left the bathroom door. And the short time. This conversation has proven to me that you guys have known each other for too long.
+
+[50:15] Yeah. First of all, like I'm a grown man. I want my own room. I want my own bathroom when I'm away from the house. Right?
+
+[50:23] I think I think I've achieved that level in my life. Dave, do we want to go get the violin for you too? I don't know. I'm not whining about it. I'm just telling you a fact.
+
+[50:33] I mean, that's just a fact. We need to get Peter Kim on the show. Yeah, yeah. Peter Kim. And talk more about this.
+
+[50:40] I haven't spoken to him in a while. All right. Charlotte. Uh I hope I got the right email address for you guys. I have a question about nitrogenating coffee cocktails.
+
+[50:48] Not carbonation, Nastasia, so you can mellow out. Wait, two minutes. Well, it's a little late for that at 12 52 to start your two-minute timer. Yeah, I hope I got the right email address. I have a question.
+
+[51:01] I've made a coffee Americano cocktail that I nitrogenate with the uh EC nitro whip using nitrogen, not nitrous oxide. So this is a thing that EC started selling, I don't know, maybe three, four years ago, where they use nitrogen uh canisters instead of nitrous oxide. And people get very confused about nitrogen versus nitrous oxide. Nitrogen is what's in the widgets in Guinness, and the idea is it's very, very not soluble. So you put it in in under relatively high pressure, and then when you suddenly release the pressure, either in a carbonated or not carbonated situation, the nitrogen forms many, many, many, many, many very small bubbles and creates the creamy head in a Guinness, and that's how the widget works.
+
+[51:41] Anyway, uh whereas what I use for infusions is nitrous oxide because I want it to be soluble. Let's just be clear. My friend uh has a pub that is currently closed and has a canister of nitrogen in the tap room because they're making their own beer gas, uh, I guess. They also make carbonated cocktails using your carbonation cap and plastic bottle method. We were wondering if we could hook up the nitrogen canister and use that with uh your method on my drinks.
+
+[52:06] The uh nitro charges are very expensive. So the nitro charges require the pressure to be released very quickly and also uh probably want some whipping. So you have two things you can do. You can either buy the adapter to screw the tank onto the EC cylinder. People sell that.
+
+[52:21] Just be careful, make sure that you don't have the pressures go too high. Buy it from a reputable source. That should work exactly the same as uh the canisters that you're using, but does require buying the adapter. If you're gonna do it in the bottles, you're going to have to put a small amount of carbon dioxide to provide uh like some extra volume of gas coming out. So I would I would put a light amount of uh you and you need to mix some gas.
+
+[52:44] So I would do like a light pre-carb, release it, and then hit it with the hard nitrogen, shake it and let it foam out. But light carb, you have to do some testing to see uh what you get it right. But I'm guessing that you're gonna need a little bit of CO2 in it to get the same effect if you're doing it in a bottle. How many minutes was that? Seven seconds left.
+
+[53:02] Perfect. Oh yeah. Uh Peter Hill wrote in about making uh orjah, but I'm not sure I'm gonna have the answer. So I'm just gonna read the question and let other people chime in. Uh hey Dave the Hammer and the rest.
+
+[53:13] It's Pete from St. Pete. I'm wanting to send a friend some Orjan tiki bitters. I'm going to attempt to make it, but I'm worried about the Orjah. My first thought is to try making uh an orjah base with almonds and D Serono from a recipe I found on the internets, but emitting the sugar because of the D Serano has it, and water it calls for.
+
+[53:29] It would be 90 grams of almonds, 25 grams of D Serano, and a little salt. Uh the rest of the recipe calls for a white sugar, uh, Dem and another 155 grams of water with the 20 grams of orange blossom water added after everything else is steeped. Would I need to add a little water to get full extraction of flavor from the almonds? What ABV would the solution need to be to be shelf stable to ship? Any other ideas on how to make it would be great?
+
+[53:49] As always, love the show, keep up the great work. You know, I never tried doing this before. I would keep any alcohol level above 20. If you have a high enough sugar, if you have a high sugar and you're above 20%, it should be relatively stable for most things. But that doesn't necessarily for you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that the quality is gonna stay high.
+
+[54:08] Obviously, the higher the ABV, the higher the quality is gonna stay. Um, you know, look, the fact that there's alcohol in the DeSorono is actually gonna uh increase the extraction of certain things from the nuts, but decrease the extraction of other things from the nuts. It won't hydrate it. So I can say give it a shape. Yeah, what nuts?
+
+[54:27] Okay, you know, Stas. Every once in a while we're on the same page for like in the real life because I was gonna forget to say these nuts. Yeah, and then it would have been wasted opportunity. It would have been wasted. So if any of you out there in the chat room universe, uh tweet tweet me the answer and we'll read it to Peter if you have any experience doing this.
+
+[54:45] Uh Nick Carlson wrote in via email. Uh recently moved to Indiana, Pennsylvania. Uh I I've never I don't know about in Indiana, Pennsylvania. Do you? Have you ever heard of this?
+
+[54:57] Uh and we'll be splitting a whole cow and pig with my family in the area. This means that the grinder attachment for my mixer won't cut it anymore. I'm in the market for a dedicated grinder. I already did this question last week. I did this question.
+
+[55:10] Did you anyway? Okay. Yeah. I talked about it. And then um uh Caprice Sun wrote in with a with a bunch of recommendations.
+
+[55:17] Some people said use the LEM, which is like the stuff some people said buy the uh grinders from Cabela's if you're not gonna use it a lot. Um, but guys, go tristen, Nick, go troll my Twitter feed about last week after I mentioned uh this question, and a bunch of people chimed in with grinder recommendations, and much better to listen to somebody who's actually used a piece of equipment than someone who's theoretically used a piece of equipment like I have. All I know is, you know, again, take eight steps up from that from that KitchenAid thing because it is a nightmare. Although I have their new metal one and I haven't uh tested it yet. I have been testing the KitchenAid ice cream maker.
+
+[55:56] I have a lot to say about that, but I don't have the time to say it right now. Uh Peter Flanagan wrote in dearest hammering co. What do you think about that, Nastasia? It's weird. Hammering Coast sounds like you sell.
+
+[56:07] I think it's very nice. I think dearest hammering co. I like that. But hammering co, do you sell tools or or garden equipment? Uh tools, I think.
+
+[56:19] Hammering Co. I like that. Dearest hammering co? Hmm. I had an above-range microwave that has failed.
+
+[56:26] Somewhat entertainingly, it would only work when the door was open. That's real bad, Peter. That's real bad. Um, this was not ideal for obvious reasons, so I'm looking to replace it with a toaster oven. By the way, did you guys know that you can buy microwave leak detectors?
+
+[56:40] That people, there's a whole there's a whole movement. I don't know whether they still make them, but they used to make them. Everyone was freaked out about microwave leakage, right? Everyone. So uh they would sell these things, and then people go around their microwaves and be like, it's leaking microwaves.
+
+[56:55] The truth of the matter is is that the the holes in the front are so small that okay. So can you picture a microwave oven door, people? Can you picture it? You have the mesh on the inside, then you have a layer of thickness of, and then you have another piece of glass that is like a couple centimeters, like an inch or like you know, three-quarters of an inch away from the mesh. And the idea is is that the wavelengths uh of microwaves are long enough that they can't penetrate through that mesh opening further than that outer piece of glass.
+
+[57:26] So it's inherently safe. You could put you you could rub your chonies against the front of a microwave and be fine with your junk in it and not like scramble your eggs. You know what I'm saying? We don't need to do that. We're not convinced.
+
+[57:37] I'm just saying, but you can. Yes. It's designed to be safe to do that, right? Yes. Uh now, uh, the whole reason for the interlock is as soon as you open it, right?
+
+[57:48] Yeah, then you're hosed. And then it takes only a couple of seconds of exposure to microwaves to completely like your your eyes will turn white like an egg white does. Not the whites of your eyes, the cornea. And then your hosed. You can't undo that.
+
+[58:01] Your toast. Not in a good way. Not in the not in the yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's real bad.
+
+[58:09] Uh so obviously uh don't use it. Uh do you have any preferred brands slash models? Additionally, I'd like to get some closure regarding uh ventilation options. Uh there is no closure. Uh Dave Key's coming back to roof-mounted fans being the bee's knees.
+
+[58:23] Uh, where would one shop for this kind of setup and how many CFMs is appropriate for venting a setup to be adequate? Thanks. Peter, again, I would go online. There are a bunch of calculators for how much CFM. Really, when you're extracting with a hood, um, how effective your hood is is also going to depend on whether you can supply air to it.
+
+[58:41] So the reason my current hood at my current apartment is not very good, is because it's my old hood was great because I was working with the way air wanted to go. Air wanted to come into my kitchen and go out, so my hood was helping it. In my current setup, um, I need a lot extra because I don't have a natural supply of air. Air wants to go the wrong way in my in my house. And so, like, I should have a supply of fresh air that went in and then got sucked out by the hood.
+
+[59:08] So a lot depends on all of those things. The main thing with a hood is is that the bigger your fan, the slower it can spin, and the slower it can spin, the less irritating it is. Home hoods are just so not only do they not suck, i.e. they don't have enough uh um CFM and they don't have enough extraction, but they also um they also are like that jet wine loudness, which is really irritating. And furthermore, um they the the one of the problems with me recommending it is, of course, fire hazards.
+
+[59:37] So you want to look, and uh the the ones, the ones that are mounted above your oven, the assumption is is that you can turn it off, and the ones that are external, it's much more important to be fire rating. Brone, who makes crappy equipment for home ranges, also makes an external mount. Just look it up. I'm sure there's something better now than there used to be. Regarding microwaves, I had to buy the smallest, I'm in an apartment in New York.
+
+[59:59] So I had to buy the literally the smallest microwave possible, and I don't use it to cook. I use it for mainly for melting, so I can deal with a very small wattage. I detest, detest, I'll say this again. I hate uh I hate those little carousels. Do you guys hate those carousels?
+
+[1:00:15] Yeah. I hate them, right? Hate them. Uh they never work. They always they get filthy, they're nasty, they're gross, like they the motors are weak.
+
+[1:00:26] They they when I look at something and it's then it spins and it and the corner of whatever it is hits the edge of the microwave and it stops spinning and then it makes that thing and it moves, irritating, right, guys? Yes. Yeah. Panasonic, I've never used it, but Panasonic makes a carousel free professional microwave oven that's relatively small. That has, so there's two ways you can do this.
+
+[1:00:49] You can use a carousel, or uh, there's three ways actually. There's a carousel, there, and then some people put a literal inside of the where the where the microwaves are generated, a little metal fan. And that metal fan actually evens out the microwaves by like they call it stirring the microwaves, so that you get a more even uh um distribution of microwaves without a lot of hot spots. I believe that's the way the professional Panasonic works. There's also another thing, which I believe Panasonic uh has also done, where they try to put um microwave shaping like weird shaped cavities on the inside to try to make it more even.
+
+[1:01:24] But I would take a look at I believe it's Panasonic with the stirrer in it. I don't know whether it's visible or not, but like look it up where it stirs the microwave for you, so you don't need that rancid carousel. Uh how am I on time there? Uh Janet. Over by how much.
+
+[1:01:39] Thank you. Now, you guys, you guys, but uh but she also meant a fast one, so we should do it. All right, Joe Ankowitz wrote in via email I just purchased a new Profitech 700 espresso machine, and it is the most money I've ever spent on a kitchen gadget, so I want to take good care of it. To that end, I was thinking of buying a water filtration system. I was wondering if you had recommendations.
+
+[1:02:00] I live in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Thanks, Joe Ankowitz. Look, Brooklyn water, you don't want your water to be too soft. If your water is too soft, your coffee is gonna taste terrible. Uh, you know, that's been that's research that's been out there for decades and decades and decades, right?
+
+[1:02:14] So you don't want your water too pure. Uh you just don't want there to be a bunch of chunk in it, and you don't want like so much um calcium that you scale up your boiler all the time. Luckily, here in New York, our water is extremely soft. In fact, so soft that uh, you know, some of the Ely family were making fun of me years ago when I was interviewing them because they said you can't make decent espresso with New York City water because it's too soft. I think they're wrong.
+
+[1:02:37] I've had good espresso here using New York City water, but it doesn't require filtration or softening to get rid of the deposits that are gonna F up your machine. What you do want to do is get rid of chlorine, and so I would use a standard uh chlorine and sediment filter in case you have rust in your pipes and whatnot, but the water itself, I wouldn't do any too much treatment before it goes in your machine. Right? Fast? All right.
+
+[1:02:59] Uh Dan uh Dan Doo wrote in via email, hey cooking issues crew, Dan from England, big fan of the show. Always had a great time in existing conditions whenever I was in New York. Oh, existing conditions. Uh my mom, I don't know if I'm gonna have an answer to this one either. My mom is a big fan of a cocktail called a snowball, which is avocat, which is the Dutch egg uh yolk liqueur, which I've never really used.
+
+[1:03:19] You guys ever use that? No. Even with your Flemish background, you never you never tried the avocado. I have not now. I don't know, man.
+
+[1:03:28] I don't know about you now. Uh lime cordial and lemonade. Not my kind of drink, but she puts them away like nobody's business over the holidays. My grandma used to drink grasshoppers like like like liquor was going out of style. I've actually done like Jack uh at the bar and I and I did a really good grasshopper.
+
+[1:03:43] Do you guys like the idea of a grasshopper or do you hate mint drinks? I'm all about that. You're all about the grasshopper? So my grandma's name on my mom's side was Madge, and she looked like a Madge, even up until the in like the like the late 90s. She had that kind of like 60s, like like way up high beehive hairdo.
+
+[1:04:02] Like she was thin as heck, but still pulled her pants too high and cinched them too tight around her waist and had like wore wore 60 style tops like up until the day day she died. And she weighed like three pounds, maybe, right? And man, could she put away grasshoppers? Anyway, um okay, for a Christmas gift. Ooh, too late.
+
+[1:04:23] For a Christmas gift, I wanted to make uh homemade all the ingredients instead of store buying them. Wow. Oh no. Sorry. No, no, Christmas comes every year.
+
+[1:04:33] That could mean next one. Horrible. It's unclear from the context. You're defending. You did try and answer this closer to the holidays, but you got sidetracked halfway through.
+
+[1:04:40] So I have horrible. What is it? I like how that's the best defense you have of me. You tried, but then you got sidetracked. It's like when you try to make that birthday gift for Jen that one year, Dave remember.
+
+[1:04:52] Okay, what is it with you today, Nastasia? Seriously. Um stir in the pot. Yeah, right. She doesn't like she doesn't want anyone to cook, but she yet she wants to stir the pot.
+
+[1:04:59] I have a decent recipe for lime cordial and found a recipe for homemade avocado, but where I'm stuck is the lemonade. I want it to be soda style clear lemonade as opposed to the cloudy fresh still lemonade. I have access to agar, citric acid, and uh CO2, and figured either I'd agar clarify some lemon and add water and citric or maybe forego the actual lemon and just use citric before carbonating. Any advice tips. Uh I would use a combination of lemon cordial, right?
+
+[1:05:25] The problem is if you're gonna make the ingredients and and give it to your mom, right? They have to be stable. And um, fresh lemon tastes nasty uh after it's been sitting around for a while. So I would if you're gonna clarify it, Nagar clarifying it is fine. Um you can add a small amount fresh, it's gonna go a little bit detergent y, but maybe you like that detergent taste.
+
+[1:05:46] And then uh I would cordialize some of it and use that uh in the lemonade, and then uh if you want to back off that a little bit, you can dope it with uh a little pure citric, and it should uh work. That makes sense. Is that a good answer? Yep. All right.
+
+[1:06:00] Um wow, let me see. Okay, this one I'm definitely not gonna be able to answer. For uh, Forrest Foster wrote in via email. I'm working with a small team consulting with a leaseholder to open a restaurant in Manhattan. Good luck with that right now.
+
+[1:06:13] Geez, Louise. Uh, the space was completely finished and inspected before we what's the only thing to do in Manhattan right now, Nastasia? Uh botanical gardens, both. And it's not even in the Manhattan. I have to leave Manhattan.
+
+[1:06:23] Oh, MoMA. Seen some very, very nice exhibits at the MOMA. There's currently a PS1, which is of course not in Manhattan. Uh, an exhibit about uh art mostly by incarcerated people, amazing exhibition. And then there's a yeah, it's great.
+
+[1:06:36] Go to PS1, and there's another uh great exhibit that just opened at the MOMA called Artist Engineer Constructor, which is uh a lot about mostly Soviet, Eastern European, but communist-based art like in between the world wars. And it's amazing. I've always loved that work, but man, they kind of it makes me a little nervous because they whitewashed the whole kind of communist murder thing. Anyway, back to back to where I was the space was completely finished and inspected before we started. The work was also completed several years ago.
+
+[1:07:03] We are currently struggling with a rationale combi oven that is not functioning. Yeah welcome to the welcome to the club dude. Apparently rationale combi ovens nowadays work a lot better than they used to in terms of not breaking but they used to be if you have an older one an old an older SCC, they were well known for having their electronics uh fry. It turns on and allows us to begin the startup test, but right after uh the altitude adjustment it trips at the outlet and turns off as far as I can tell it's not an issue with the outlet it's the right voltage. And then the model number is SCCWE 61 G.
+
+[1:07:36] Listen, I know this isn't a baking question but any insight would be great. Thanks for us. Okay there's a couple of things one the voltage the odds that you get the voltage right are high because you're gonna get the voltage right but you might not have the number of amps right so if this was a new build out and these people like haven't done it right I would check the circuitry and make sure that um that your breaker is big enough. Right? So like breaker is both amps the phase right so you know the the rationale I don't know whether I I didn't look I guess the G maybe is a gas but even the gas ones take a lot of electricity so I would see how many amps you go into it.
+
+[1:08:11] So I'm assuming that it's not uh a ground fault interrupted circuit, if it's a ground fault interrupted circuit, sometimes uh I would swap out the G uh uh GCFI because um certain certain pieces of electronic equipment if they send uh if if the power factor goes off wrong, which is too complicated to explain in my two minute window, uh it can trip a GCFI. So we used to have a Hobart at the school that would trip all the GFIs in one room but not in another. So I would swap out or plug it into a non-GFI or remove it temporarily and look at it if the GFI is the problem. If not, your amperage is probably not adequate. If your amperage is not adequate, remember you not only have to replace the socket and the breaker, but possibly the wiring in between because you do not want to run too many amps through too small a wire to fire hazard.
+
+[1:08:57] And if you have a fire as a result of that, your insurance will not pay. Good answer or not, good answer. Good answer. Luke Mezzer wrote in via email. Uh I'm going to be making herbal tinctures to eventually combine into a homemade Amaro.
+
+[1:09:11] By the way, I've been drinking so much cap course. What do you guys say? Is you know, you what are you guys drinking? Are you drinking anything different from what you normally Jen and I have been drinking Cap course like almost like every night before dinner? Not drinking anything.
+
+[1:09:26] I know because someone who you thought was gonna come drink with you ended up that they're in a teetotaling mood and it pissed you off, correct? Yes, and I'm alone. Yeah. Well, I mean, you went to California so that you could see your family, correct or not correct? Correct, but it's like once a week, and it's very carefully.
+
+[1:09:43] Yeah. Uh my concern lies, well, what do you guys drink? Anyone else drinking anything interesting? Cap course. So I'm like, that's what that's our thing now.
+
+[1:09:50] That's our COVID thing. I've just been making it. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, uh Mike doesn't really drink that much, so it's usually oh, well, we saw his family this past weekend.
+
+[1:10:03] There was a lot of Pinot Grigio, and I had fringelico for the first time. So my God. Speaking of these nuts, yeah. Um monk nuts. That's that's like, you know, that's like the monk.
+
+[1:10:14] I was definitely feeling it the next day. We'll just drink that you were mentioning, though, Dave that you've been. Cap course? I don't know what that is. Oh my god.
+
+[1:10:26] So like it's like it's like it's like a sweetened wine-based uh herbal thing with a little bit of quinine in it. There's a red and a white. And a lot of people were like, oh, it's like a summertime thing. Uh I'm here to tell you, you can drink it in the wintertime. And so, and people make spritzers out of it, but I we just drink it like on a rock.
+
+[1:10:45] We drink, we switch off between the red and the white. It's real cheap. It's like not real cheap, but it's like $20 a like for the big bottle, and you just have a little bit before dinner. It's a nice little thing to have before dinner. That sounds delightful.
+
+[1:10:55] I'm gonna look at it. It is. It is. It's a good product, and it doesn't cost that much. Brought to you by the people at House Alpens.
+
+[1:11:01] Hey, people at here, people at House Alpens, why don't you come? Well, we like drinking your products. Why don't you pay us? Anyway, um Mike, so whoa, whoa, I gotta finish so that I don't have to come and do Luke Mezzer's question again. I'm almost done.
+
+[1:11:14] All right. All right, two minute clock after I finish reading. It's like uh Leslie Jones on supermarket sweep. And when you after you read the question, that's when the timer starts. I love her.
+
+[1:11:21] Oh my god, I watched that show religiously with with uh question. Yeah, there we go. There's a team, team barbecue. Oh my god. Oh second, on the on last week's supermarket sweep, and they ripped it up.
+
+[1:11:33] They ripped it up. Like Jen Dax and I were both like normally we think we're pretty good at this. These people are crushing us. Like, I feel like I've never been to a supermarket compared to the the teen barbecue people. Anyway, um my concern lies in the safety of using some of the ingredients I have planned.
+
+[1:11:49] The main one I was concerned about are licorice root and wormwood. I also have gentian, kinchona bark, chizandra berries, devil's club root, which I've never used, angelica, and wild cherry bark. If I'm making a tincture of each, then combining small amounts of them with other tinctures, including things like dried fruits, simple Cyric water, etc., the concentration I think should be relatively low, especially if you only have one or two ounces in a cocktail or neat in a night. Do you think there's any real danger here? Or would it only be a problem if you're drinking 750 milliliters at a time or something else crazy?
+
+[1:12:16] You're fine, dude. You're fine. Like that that guy who died from the licorice, he was eating an obscene, an obscene amount of red licorice every day and was like, what if I just switched to black? This is like what I said with with Booker. Like, no one has ever eaten as much squid ink as Booker has in a day, and so nobody knows what the effect is.
+
+[1:12:36] They've tested it on mice, so we think it's gonna be okay, because the the squid ink consortium manufacturer wants to say that it's helpful, so they stuff mice full of squid ink, and then there must be spraying black squid ink poo all over their little cedar chipped cages. But it's been tested on that, but but no one tested that on black licorice. There's no one ate that much. You're not gonna eat that much. Don't worry about it.
+
+[1:12:58] Shizandra berries are drunk in quantity by uh, you know, a lot of uh uh Russians, like over on the Siberian side, and also in China, so it's got a long history of use there. I think you're fine. Kinchona bark, you know, uh it if you made it dangerous, it would be so bitter that it would be unpalatable. So uh, and wormwood, the amount of foodone that's in wormwood, you're much more likely to overthrough joan someone with sage, uh, although I mean who can eat that much sage? So, in short, don't worry about it.
+
+[1:13:29] And the and the Swedes sell the wormwood uh liqueur called Basca, uh like the Basco drop bar is so bitter that it's like it's like malort, basically, which is malorts the ripoff of basket drop art. So, like, and and that doesn't kill people in the quantities that you can consume. So, if this stuff has enough of that stuff to kill you in it, it would also be so unpalatable that you'll be using it by drops and not in something you would drink. So, Luke, you're fine. How's that?
+
+[1:13:53] Very good. It had to be under two. Yeah. It was, yeah. All right, so uh maybe we should do these, like kind of like maybe what we should do next week is like just say before we even start talking, before we even introduce ourselves, we'll just rip through five of these on a two-minute thing, and then we'll do our normal like hey, how's he's doing, and then we can what do you think?
+
+[1:14:17] And then we can just sounds that sounds very promising. And we're gonna try it for next week. So we're not gonna talk about Charlie Chap. How Rebecca, how do you think? We can talk about him, but after the after you do that.
+
+[1:14:28] All right. Just saying. I'm not saying we have to or that we want to, but you know, don't forget to do that. For any of you that are interested, like you why doesn't anyone just start like requesting that we talk about like random information that is interesting? Like, for instance, they don't care about that.
+
+[1:14:47] Like panko, panko. I could talk for a whole hour about panko crumbs, but no one cares. No one's asking about panko. That's one nostassio that would be hard to make yourself. Do you know that it's made with electrically uh it's panko is cooked between two electric plates, and they do that so that it never it's a resistance heating method, and they do that so that it doesn't have any crust.
+
+[1:15:06] The panko bread that is used has no crust, so they can grind the entire thing whole, which is how they get that texture. Anyway, no one cares about panko. Instead, they want to know about something else. I don't know. Well, I I like the idea.
+
+[1:15:18] Like, if there's any random topic that you want to hear about, you know. Let us know. All right. Well, we knocked some of these questions out, but I feel like still, John, is the list getting shorter every week or not even? It's saying about the same because you're not Devin the dude.
+
+[1:15:34] I don't have like you you I'll do this one last. Get us as what's a good brand or type of chicken bullion? I'm assuming you mean bullion cube. Um, just so you know, they're different. It depends on where you live.
+
+[1:15:46] The recipe is like usually different, it's same in a whole country. But I uh uh I once was hanging out with Unilever and they own uh Knorr and Noor, and their bullion recipe is vastly different from country to country. So it's it's not just a brand, it's like where you get it. Um, but you know, I never use them by themselves. I always use them just as a as a base.
+
+[1:16:07] I think right now I do have uh Knorr in my in my uh pantry. Just you know, that's what I have now. Um, and even though normally I don't, I've been moving towards lower salt varieties just because they give you um the ability to use more of it uh and and redu and reduce without having to worry about because they do contain can contain a lot of salt. All right, uh so I got rid of that one too, and we'll c I'll talk to you guys next is there we're gonna be here next week, right? There's nothing uh stopping us from being here next week, right?
+
+[1:16:35] Yeah, right. All right, cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network dot org.
+
+[1:16:56] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash heritage Radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Pasa Sustainable Agriculture. Learn more about PASA's 2021 virtual conference at pastafarming.org slash conference. This week on Meet and Three, it's our 100th episode. We're breaking the mold to kick off our mini-series on global trade. Vegetable, fruits, grains, and cooking technique.
+
+[0:25] Pass from one region to another. And that's interesting that that region transformed that ingredient into their own specialties. There was a time where black pepper was a luxury. And we know that because people were willing to invest huge amounts of money to go to the Spice Islands in order to get uh pepper. You know, stuff we take for granted now.
+
+[0:48] You know, you go into a restaurant and it's free. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. Welcome to Cooking Issues. We've already gone through this today, but you haven't heard it because Zoom went down in Roberta's because Brooklyn's internet is Rhode Island is Rhode Island.
+
+[1:22] Oh, you're back in Rhode Island? So it's all on Rhode Island. Well. Uh yeah, so this is Cooking Issues coming to you. I have to say we were on time.
+
+[1:32] I have, you know, Rebecca the Hammer Lopez in uh Rhode Island. Sorry, in uh in California. Oh wow. Rebecca the Remember the Hammer Lopez in Rhode Island. We've all merged to one.
+
+[1:46] You were yeah, that's because I I have the similar feelings about all of you right now. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I don't have similar feelings. You're all separate people.
+
+[1:55] Alright, let's start fresh. I'm starting fresh, people. We were actually on time today. And the very first thing I said when uh we were online and maybe this is what cut us off I said we're actually on time now that we're here but it doesn't matter as much because people aren't live with us anymore and John who's in Boston right now is uh said that people can follow in in the chat room. So there you have it.
+
+[2:23] Uh so let's just go through this as though this is normal. We're gonna rip through some questions. Uh Nastasio you're in California how you doing yeah uh Matt in Rhode Island I guess everything good doing doing good yeah and so the first time we went through this this morning John was saying that uh he's in Boston at his sister's place and you're saying you had some fine food you want to plug those guys out again? Yeah. Uh flower uh Joanne Chang's place it's a little small bakery chain around the city really good stuff and then uh Myers and Chang which is her more formal sit down contemporary Asian restaurant uh that also does delivery it was quite good so and Regino's pizzeria very good nice all right now uh we had said that at the beginning we weren't gonna talk about Charlie Chaplin although I was told that he was a well-endowed fellow as well as what he looked like uh on the outside with his clothing on according to the people on the Twitter I don't know I said Milton Burl style and they're like no no one's Milton Burl style so I'll leave it at that uh but Nastasia and John thought it would be a good idea if I just ripped through a bunch of questions but um to do that, can you guys go on the questions and look up because someone wanted us to go over some of these products on a on a gift guide uh and you know, it'd be helpful to have you guys uh on that as well so you guys can you know at least know what I'm talking about and you can chime in and uh Nastasi's gonna do her hammer thing and make sure that uh I don't go on more than uh a little bit of time on each question.
+
+[3:52] True? Sure. Because we're gonna try to wipe this slate clean, right? Okay. That'd be great.
+
+[3:58] That's ambitious, but yeah, let's try. Are you now I'm just letting you know, Nastasia, ahead of time, some triggering is gonna happen because there are carbonation questions. Okay. All right. Your forewarned is forearmed, as they say.
+
+[4:13] Okay. Uh let's start. From behind the wall via Instagram. Hey, John and Dave, thanks for attempting to answer my question. I realize it didn't make much sense the way I was expecting it to go.
+
+[4:24] Uh I wasn't expecting it to go straight on the show. This was a question about carbonation. So here we start starting with what Nastasi hates right from the jump. Uh, anyhow, here's what I meant. Uh we are using Dave's carbonation cap and PET bottle method to make bottled uh seltzer cocktails with great success.
+
+[4:40] Uh so much so that demand has gone out right up. Uh gone gone right. This was an old question, gone right up to the uh through Christmas. At present, we run a line of PET bottles, which is the you know, soda bottles. We use liters, sometimes we'll use two liters when we're doing big batches.
+
+[4:54] Um and then uh dispatch it into nine ounce glass bottles and cap as we go. All good, but we can only produce about 39 ounce bottles every two hours. Okay, so someone mentioned using corny kegs as a way to bulk up production, and we tried using the same technique as your as you did with the PET bottle and carbonation cap method. However, we're not getting the same results. That's because the corny keg is gonna it's gonna suck.
+
+[5:16] You can only do low volumes of carbonation by dispensing out of a corny keg with an alcoholic cocktail. It's just I've never I've had people the best jobs that you can do out of a corny keg are still light, let's say lightly carbonated. And then once you put it into a bottle, you're losing more carbonation, and then you know, once they open it and they pour it into their glass, they're losing more carbonation. And so in the end, it's a very lightly carbonated product. And that's fine for certain cocktails, especially Negronis, but it's in general not necessarily what you're looking for, especially if you're used to the carbonation levels that you can get out of doing it the way that God and nature intended, which is to carbonate in the PET bottle and then pour directly into the cocktail glass.
+
+[5:58] So I'm just gonna say that you're not gonna reach those levels that way. Now, people have done carbonation uh in kegs or in containers and built counterpressure uh fillers that work with cocktails, and I've heard that some people have had a a certain amount of success doing that. I have never tasted those products, so I can't tell you whether they are good or not. Um but you know, that's gonna be an expensive system, and you're not just gonna be able to dispense out of a out of a corny cake. Now I will say this.
+
+[6:29] What you are telling me is that uh you are only doing 30 time. Okay, I haven't even started answering the question yet. I mean, I appreciate what you're saying, but I mean, all right, give me another minute. 30 30 30 bottles every two hours means that you are doing 15 bottles an hour, which means that you're doing I don't know, do the math. It's like slow.
+
+[6:54] You need a much faster technique. What you need to do is get all of your carbonation bottles triple carb, get them in ice, then put all of your bottles, fill them with ice water, not with, not with, uh, don't freeze them because that'll cause carbonation problems. Uh put them in ice water clean, then pull out four at a time, fill them four at a time from the from the two-liter, right? As soon as those four are filled, cap, recarb, chill that one, move to the next PET bottle that you already have pre-capped and go down the line. You should be able to get at least four times as much with one person using bus tubs with uh carbonated cocktail and your bottles pre-iced.
+
+[7:34] You should be able to get at least four times that volume. All right. Was that an extra minute? Did I make it in uh under the extra minute, Stas? Yeah.
+
+[7:41] All right. Uh from Chris Williamson, uh, you guys ready to do this list now? Do you already have the list called up? Or you want me to put that later on the show? Ready?
+
+[7:48] Okay. Yeah. All right, cool. All right. From Chris Williamson via email, can we get Dave's take on a few items on this list?
+
+[7:53] Seems right up his alley. What this is is uh best kitchen gadgets that unnecessarily do one thing well, and it's on uh gizmod, right? And it's I guess was a Christmas buying guide. So so uh we'll look at it. First up is a tuna can press.
+
+[8:08] I'm gonna say this is ridiculous item. It's uh I mean these are all ridiculous, but I'm gonna say that this is like maybe one of the worst cases of landfill on earth. Do any of you guys have a problem with just opening the can of tuna fish and then squeezing on the lid to get the get the product out? No, that's actually what I do. Yeah, I mean, but is there a problem with that?
+
+[8:29] Yeah. Am I missing something? So this is just land food straight land fit. Open it or is it just a press just the press? You still need a land, you still need a uh can opener.
+
+[8:39] If this was like a uh like a Jim Belushi style, a John Belushi style of situation where you could crack the can over your head and it drained the juice, and you didn't have to have a can opener and you got to look like a meathead in the process, fine. Fine. But this is just you already need the can opener. This is one of those things that when you open your Nastasia, you're gonna I know you hate this. When you open your kitchen drawer, that thing that gets caught on the lip in the drawer so the drawer doesn't open, and then you're like bam, bam, bam, bam!
+
+[9:07] Opening the drawer and like you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. Architects out there. I've had this discussion with my wife. Architects, a lot of them aren't necessarily cooks, and they don't have full drawers because architects are neat, and so they don't overstuff their drawers.
+
+[9:22] And this is why I don't think they know this. Any contractor or architect out there, if you can put your hand into like remove the drawers out of wherever you are, just take the drawers out right now. Go do it. Forget listening to us. If you can put your hand into the drawer cavity and then draw your hand forward and your hand catches on anything, that's what's gonna happen to that spatula or that pair of tongs or that knife that you jammed into that thing when you shouldn't have, and you're gonna leave someone like me sitting there going, bam, bam, bam.
+
+[9:52] Likewise, the bottom of like of drawers that go underneath other drawers. If I can move my hand out and hit on any lip, that's time. I've done one, two to press can, and I'm done with that one. Now listen, you're supposed to weigh in on this anyway, Nastasia. All right, rolly, the omelet log machine.
+
+[10:09] Wait, am I doing two minutes per these? You get to freaking choose. Like, I I love that I love the robot thing, but you get to choose. Or listen, we have to talk about this one because we've already discussed this on the show. They need to go back and look at the at the old ones.
+
+[10:21] Someone gave us the Rolly, the omelet log machine. And if you remember, we had to evacuate. So this is a tube that you plug in and it cooks a single tube-shaped omelet. Do you remember this, Nastasia? Not really.
+
+[10:35] We had to evacuate the entire Robert's because it smelled so bad. It's not Roberta's, but the the container behind Roberta's. Remember, we we put the we put the mixture in on the show and it like burned and stank up the entire entire thing? That was a complete nightmare. What do you think about the calorie counting digital rice paddle, Nastasia?
+
+[10:57] No, don't care. It's garbage, right? But uh for recipe developers and only for recipe developers, I think it would be interesting to have a spoon that could weigh as you were measuring out spices because when you're developing recipes, that is a pain in the butt. Uh next up is spherical ice cube molds. Now, John, I haven't talked to you about them.
+
+[11:15] What do you think about spherical ice cube molds? I I don't it takes up too much space in my What do you think about receiving a drink with spherical ice in it? Uh not a huge fan, I guess, because as you sip it out of the glass, it bumps up against your face. Yeah, I don't like it either. Nastasia, you don't I do you dislike it or don't care?
+
+[11:37] I don't think there's a use for it. Yeah, I'm not a fan of spherical ice. I think that's uh an idea whose time has come and mercifully is gone. All right. The ultimate MYO man it mayonnaise maker is a device where you add the ingredients and it separately puts the egg yolk in and makes mayonnaise.
+
+[11:52] There's no reason for this to exist, but I gotta say something about it I like. Maybe it's because I like mayonnaise so much. What do you guys think? Useless. You don't like the idea that it can make a mayonnaise?
+
+[12:02] No. Wow, you're real interesting today, Stas. Man. Uh pizza scissors. What do you guys?
+
+[12:09] Now, I have to say, uh, I don't really understand why you can't just cut pizza with real scissors if you wanted to do that. But I have noticed, I have watched people cut pizza for many years. Why is it that people have trouble cutting through a pizza in one shot? I don't know. Should I keep going?
+
+[12:28] More two minutes. What you said asked, you're not even listening to I'm asking you questions and you're not even answering. I'm just trying to get us to go through all our listener questions quickly. But I mean, we can go back to these later if you want, but I have a specific question. Have you noticed that people have trouble?
+
+[12:48] I think because this is a big problem. I've watched people try to cut through pizzas, and for some reason, I hate it when you people go over the pizza again and again and again and again and mutilate the slice. It's like uh you ever watch a surgeon work? You ever been in an operating room assisting a surgeon? No.
+
+[13:07] Okay. Well, you know, again, I used to do this, you know, for my summer jobs, right? Not on people, don't worry. But uh, but it's like all the surgeons know you could tell someone because they're tentative when they're when they're making the cut, right? Real surgeon, they go in and they don't want to sit there and like keep going back with the scalpel, like cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting.
+
+[13:32] You want to go in and cut. Same with a pizza people. You don't need the scissors if you just push hard enough with the knife on the first go around. Just make it through the pizza in one shot. And if you can't make it through the pizza in one shot, forget trying to learn to slice fish for sushi.
+
+[13:51] Just forget it. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. More pre-no. Well, again, you don't need pressure with sushi, but I'm just saying you need to get rid of that tentative nature.
+
+[13:59] You need to make it through the pizza. You guys any feelings on this? Does this not is am I the only person that's bothered by this phenomenon? Think so. Yeah, I'm not bothered by this, but for all the listeners who cannot see the pizza scissors, the only thing that apparently makes them pizza-specific scissors is that like 30% of the object is taken up by this giant cutout that says pizza.
+
+[14:24] I mean it includes the built-in plastic spatula so you can immediately serve up a slice without the risk of the crust going limp under the weight of the toppings and all the teeth sliding off when it's structural integrity. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, you wouldn't have that problem if you didn't lift the pizza up at all. If you could just cut it on the board like like you're supposed to.
+
+[14:45] Yeah. Yeah. Are you fans of knives or rolling cutters? Rolling. Really?
+
+[14:52] Yeah, I think rolling, yeah. Do you guys use the giant like professional style rolling color cutter or the little one? Little one, I think. I think the little one. It's difficult to clean one.
+
+[15:04] The giant one is like six inches across. Makes it easier to push down because it is it doesn't it the contact area is a lot closer to flat, and so um it doesn't ever you know how like sometimes a small pizza roller when you're pushing it, uh it will uh it will kind of like, you know, slide in and kind of dredge up the pizza toppings. Yeah. Yeah. So the bigger ones won't ever won't ever do that.
+
+[15:27] I mean, the the concept of a roller is a good one in that it's got a relatively small contact point, so it doesn't take as much pressure to go through. But that's why a curved bellied, like traditional curved bellied knife, right, is good if you push it down on the one point and then roll through it so your point of contact is never that uh large. Anyway, we actually use uh the mezzaluna that my wife and I got uh on our honeymoon to cut pizza at our house. A decent size one, not like one of these little weird ones that's meant for just like, you know, one herb. Uh all right, Chris, we'll get back to some of those other things if we have time, which uh we probably won't.
+
+[15:59] Uh Zach wrote in via email. Uh is this still the correct email? Here it is. We're talking about it. Uh thank Dave and whoever is currently on around the show.
+
+[16:12] Since in the 160 episodes of Back Catalog, uh the staff has uh changed a few times. Well, it's Matt now, people. It's Matt. Hold on a second. I have my son Booker tapping on my what Booker.
+
+[16:24] Be right back. Okay. I'm almost up to my hundredth cooking issues, by the way. I'm very excited about that. Wow.
+
+[16:31] Out of how many episodes have we done? Eight million? Eight million. Yeah. So 100 out of 8 million, ain't bad.
+
+[16:37] In case you guys were keeping track. Something like that. In case you guys were keeping track, Booker will be right back. Um, in the last uh five months I was hired as a server at a restaurant, then let do uh let go due to pandemic related issues. However, in that time I learned to uh about drink manufacturing bartending, went down the wonderful rabbit hole uh of knowledge and pleasure that has led me here.
+
+[16:58] At any rate, my question uh is as follows. My grandmother buys diet tonic water for her gin and tonics and use uh and used to love a diet carbonated grapefruit soda that has been discontinued. Which one? You gotta tell me which grapefruit soda. Um that has been uh they haven't discontinued fresca, am I right, people?
+
+[17:16] Anyone? I don't know. By the way, fresca, for those of you that don't drink diet soda, is all diet. There is no diet fresca, and that's the secret trick. You can tell whether someone is just being a jerk about not liking diet soda or whether they actually, don't like it if you serve them fresca.
+
+[17:32] Because non-diet soda drinkers don't even know that fresca is diet. It's like Amstel. I don't like light beer. Here, have an Amstel. Oh, this is nice.
+
+[17:41] You like light beer. Okay. Um, so uh my uh grandmother buys uh diet carbonate grapefruit juice for Christmas. I'm getting her a soda stream, and I'm interested in being able to produce a great tonic syrup begrudgingly diet. I found this recipe for tonic syrup.
+
+[17:56] I wonder if you guys have input on it. Uh and it's a recipe for the ultimate gin and tonic. Uh, John, do you have that recipe? Uh no. Call that up and take a look at it.
+
+[18:06] I'm going to substitute simple syrup part with uh the keto. What's keto friend? Is that some sort of like uh, is that some sort of stevia nonsense? Do you know what keto friend is? Keto is a diet.
+
+[18:18] Right, but what is keto friend a sweetener that you guys have heard of? Nope. With the keto friend, oh, oh, oh. Uh uh Eretha. By the way, I don't know anything about current uh erythrols of the substitute sugar that I don't know anything about current substitute uh sugars.
+
+[18:35] Uh also for the recipe, I do not have xanthan gum for thickening. Do not thicken a tonic water with xanthan gum. Do not thicken a tonic water with xanthan gum. You will you will look far and wide before you will find anyone thickening a product that's meant to be carbonated with xanthan gum because it's going to spray all over everything. So just immediately throw out the idea of using xanthan gum.
+
+[18:58] And instead, you're gonna want to use um you're gonna want to use uh uh my god, my brain just erased. Just use um glycerin, vegetable glycerin. Uh you can get it, it'll body it up. Uh, that'll be great. It'll let you reduce the sugar.
+
+[19:13] You might have to add a little more of a bodying agent because you don't want to add that much glycerin. But that's that's what you should uh that's what you should use. And uh remember, uh, grapefruit sodas, the way that everyone knows their grapefruit is that they add a clouding agent to them, and you can just from a soda manufacturer buy a clouding agent. All right? All right, that makes sense.
+
+[19:30] Is that a good enough answer? Two minutes. But it's already over, Stuss. I'm telling you, yeah. Okay.
+
+[19:37] But oh, so in other words, it was good because it was within the two minutes, not because I actually need to like build up your internal clock for this. Ah, yeah, that's not gonna work. All right. Uh Alex Edwards uh from Instagram. Hey, relatively new fan, uh, I'm up for a head chef position.
+
+[19:51] Congratulations. By the way, Stas, are you counting for when I start reading the question or from when I finish reading the question? It's hard because you know, you kind of go into tandems like halfway through the question, and then you get back on the question, you sort of answer it in the middle. So I'm trying to figure out when to start it, during, and I'm trying to give you like the most amount of time. So it's it's a good one.
+
+[20:13] Well, you know for instance, is this part of Alex Edwards's two minutes? I'm just curious. I I'm not judging one way or the other. I'm just asking. No.
+
+[20:23] You know what? Like, one thing I know about Nastasia is that even if I don't understand it, she has some sort of internal system. So we're just gonna roll with it. You know what I mean? Uh all right.
+
+[20:33] Uh I'm up for head chef position. I was wondering if there are any books that outline the administrative side of being a chef. Uh the restaurant is going to be part of a tap room, so the menu will be uh uh elevated bar food that highlights the beers. I'd love any advice I'm up against a Sioux from the French laundry, so I need any edge that I can get. Thanks.
+
+[20:51] If you're up against a Sioux from the French laundry, like if they want, okay, I'm gonna be harsh. If they want the specific kind of person who is a Sioux at the French laundry, right? In other words, like like someone who like it's a very specific kind of perfection. So like one of our favorite interns of all time long, Long. Remember Long Nastasia?
+
+[21:17] Hello? Did I lose Nastasia? Did I lose everyone? Said yeah. Oh.
+
+[21:22] He was one of our favorites, right? And he went to go work at at per se. And we were like, yo, dude, you're already, you already punish yourself so much. You already, you already so have so much like internalized, you know, self-aggression. Like, do you really need to go get punished like that?
+
+[21:39] So, like, people who like thrive in that kind of environment of like ultra perfection and like self kind of effacement to like like a monastic goal, it's gonna be hard to beat them unless you're the same kind of person, right, Stas? Mm-hmm. Anyway, as for books, uh, the French Culinary Institute used to have a whole course on this subject. Unfortunately, I never really read their documentation for it, so I don't have a good bibliography on this, and I haven't read a lot of good books on it. But maybe um, John, maybe you could put this out to uh Matt at Kitchen Arts and Letters and see whether or not uh he has any good suggestions, and we'll read them on the air next week.
+
+[22:20] Is that sound like a good idea? And and always a good thing to do, people is call Kitchen Arts and Letters and uh ask them for their recommendations, and uh they will always know because you know, um John and I packed up their whole library twice, uh, and then uh the French Culinaries Institute's library, and I went through all of those books, but it was before I got the question, so I don't really have any any memory of it. But you really want something more uh current and up to date. Matt knows. Uh was I was I in on time, kinda.
+
+[22:50] Yeah, you have 15 seconds. Woo! Now, is it like the Congress where you add the 15? Oh, the idiot the idiot from New York reserves his time. No?
+
+[22:59] No. How boring are those congressional hearings, by the way, without talking about they're just so boring. Glad that we run this operation with fewer rules. Although we're trending towards congressional level rules here. I mean, no.
+
+[23:16] The gentlady from California. Uh okay. Uh from Chris Grady. Uh hello, Dave and Nastasia. Uh here's another thing.
+
+[23:25] Sorry. Like, why do they have this rule where you have to fake only address the speaker in Congress? Like, everyone knows I'm talking crap about the person sitting right next to me. Why do I have to address the other weird. Weird.
+
+[23:39] Uh imagine if Nastasi and I could only insult each other by talking to John. Isn't that what happens? We just insult each other directly, don't we? Yeah, this sounds like a good theme for an episode. We'll try that next week.
+
+[23:51] Where Nastasi and I can only insult each other with passive aggressive third-party talking to John. John would hate. How about we use Matt? He doesn't have to tolerate us any other time of the week. So it's week one hour.
+
+[24:07] I can I can I can just grab a bear out there. Yeah, we'll try it. Uh the engineer knows. We'll just say it like that, because you never refer to them by name. It's only by their title.
+
+[24:16] Anyway, uh recipe authors sometimes recommend making a stew a couple of days ahead of time to let the stew develop a better flavor. Is this true and why? Or as we say, why? Uh can you please explain the science? Uh PS, your applied science rifts are great.
+
+[24:30] Explaining the capacity of electrical outlets in my home as compared to the wattage advertisements of blender manufacturers. More of that, please. It's not boring, Nastasia. Uh who knows? Maybe I would have become a scientist if someone like you taught my high school science classes.
+
+[24:42] Uh thank you. Well, you know what? I think teaching high school science would be kind of uh fun, except for like the fact that it would not be at all fun. Can you imagine having to teach high school students? I mean, John, you were a college professor.
+
+[24:53] Can you imagine like having to actually wrangle high school students? No, that would be a nightmare. Also, just to clarify, the Chris did not say it is not boring, Nastasia. Dave added the nostalgia. I added the word nostalgia.
+
+[25:06] I added the word nostasia. Uh I had great, I had some great high school uh science teachers. I had a science teacher in high school, her name was Mrs. Zook, and she was a chemistry teacher, and she saved all the stuff from the 70s that they weren't allowed to use anymore in the 80s when I was in high school, and she would let us play with it. Like she would let us play with carbon tetrachloride, which actually saved my life later.
+
+[25:29] The fact that I knew exactly what carbon tetrachloride smelled like saved my life when I bought my first roto vat. Well, I don't save my life, but it saved me from consuming a bunch of carbon tetrachloride. Anyways, um there's a bunch of things that happen in a stew. First of all, the items that are in a stew haven't necessarily reached equilibrium. So one of the things you'll notice when you cook something in like a large format, like a like a stew or soup, and it has chunks in it.
+
+[25:53] If you have a soup that had no chunks in it, I would guarantee you that uh pretty much it would uh no chunks. I'm no chunks, like vita prepped, that it would stay relatively stable other than oxidation and other things that happen, right? So the things that happen over time are large chunks get more equilibrated, and this is why uh you almost always need to add salt on the second day after you taste something, because what's happened is is the salt has leached into all of the products, and the external amount of salt is lower, and so your perceived saltiness is lower. Have you all noticed this effect? Is anyone with me Denny?
+
+[26:29] I I have not noticed this. You've not noticed that when you make a mac and cheese or something like this and you and it's perfect and you eat it right when it comes off the stove, that when you reheat it, you don't add a little more salt. You've never noticed this? Or like when you cook, oh, when you cook a soup and it's got chunks of stuff in it and it's fine the first day, the next day you have to add a little more salt. No one's noticed this effect because it's a real effect.
+
+[26:52] I think the problem is that in my life I am adding salt basically always to all food items right before consumption, no matter what has happened. All right. Well, this is a true statement. The other thing that's true is is that um other things like ground spices haven't been usually thoroughly exhausted into uh your product yet, and your act of masticating typically does French food chewing, it's not really French, uh, doesn't break up those spices anymore, and so you're not getting a lot more release, whereas you are getting more release as they say meld over time. So though those I think are the primary two things.
+
+[27:29] I don't think what you're looking at is next is necessarily oxidative effects or any sort of other uh effect like that, although could be, who knows? Um all right, was that an okay answer? Yep. I can't believe none of you have noticed. I want all of you guys out there to notice when you put something away, especially cooks, not just people sitting at the table eating.
+
+[27:49] I want you to notice that when you serve it at the table, you serve it with a certain amount of salt on it, right? And you allow people to add extra salt because whatever. People not everyone likes the same amount of salt. But you know what it tasted like when you served it, right? When it's cold, don't taste it cold because that's different.
+
+[28:06] Once it's reheated, taste it again. Tell me if it doesn't need more salt. Unless you oversalted it yesterday, in which case, whatever. Uh, from Brian Yurko on Instagram. Uh, do you think pressing the solids from making stock with a hydraulic press like you do with nut milks would be of appreciate what kind of nuts, Nastasia?
+
+[28:24] Yeah. Yeah. I love I I love it. I love it. The uh it's dees.
+
+[28:29] All right. Um dumbox would be of appreciable value. It sounds silly, but I know there's a ton of liquid uh stock stuck in the veg and meat leftovers. Uh kind of the same thing as using a duck press, the old school French. I don't know.
+
+[28:40] I mean, like my hydraulic press press now that the bar is closed is in storage. Otherwise, the next time I made some stock here, I would just uh I would just you know do it for you. But uh, I don't know. Wait, John, what do you think? I'm gonna do it.
+
+[28:54] I think I'm guessing Sassy doesn't care, or I'd ask her opinion. I think you'd get a good amount of liquid out of it, but I you know, I think you'd also get a lot of like little solids and it would really make it cloudy. Right, but uh but everyone loves a cloudy stock nowadays, right? Do they? Don't they?
+
+[29:13] I don't know. Like, isn't the bone broth whole thing all emulsified sauces, all emulsified stocks? Yeah. So I'm saying you have your regular stock that's not like that, and then you you you do the super squeeze on it and you get the the rest of the stuff. True.
+
+[29:29] Yeah. Yeah. Hold on one second. Uh my kids for some reason think it's fun to let the dogs like scrape on our doors. You know what I mean?
+
+[29:39] Like uh uh all I can hear, like when you have a 75-pound like black lab, like with its nails scraping, I mean, you can imagine it scrapes the hell out of your door. Anyway, they're still not doing it. Give me 30 seconds. This episode is brought to you by Pasa Sustainable Agriculture. Cultivating environmentally sound, economically viable, and community-focused farms and food systems.
+
+[30:07] Pasa Sustainable Agriculture's annual conference is one of the largest gatherings of sustainable farmers, food system professionals, and change makers in the nation. The 2021 virtual conference takes place January 19th to February 5th and features more than 90 sessions on topics that include soil health, climate change, crop production, livestock grazing, urban agriculture, community building, food justice, and much, much more. Don't miss keynote speaker Robin Wall Kimmerer, scientist and author of Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants. Learn more about Pasa Sustainable Agriculture's 2021 virtual conference and register online at PasaFarming.org slash conference. And I'm back.
+
+[31:07] That could have been the commercial break had I thought of it in advance. Do we still do commercial breaks? How does that even work, Matt? You you do indeed, and that will almost certainly be the commercial break. Oh, alright.
+
+[31:17] Uh, from Andre Garcia via Instagram. Hey Dave, uh, sorry to bother you, but I would like to ask you how can I clarify coffee? Thanks so much for all your help during these years. I wish you a Merry Christmas. Wow, that's an old question.
+
+[31:29] Andre, coffee, not espresso, because espresso is an emulsification. Um, but coffee, standard like drip coffee, is already clear. If you um if you were to take a pane of glass and pour it and look through it, you could read newsprint through it, right? Um so it's not it's not really, it's just really dark. So if if what you're asking is, I mean, you you could do a clarification procedure on something like an espresso.
+
+[31:55] I don't know what the best technique would be to break the emulsion and get all of the uh the non-dissolved solids out. I mean, uh I've never tried it in a spinzall, in other words, but or or even a larger centrifuge already, no super speed centrifuge. But if what you're talking about is making it clear, that's more of a distillation um situation, and coffee does not distill very well because all of the bitter stuff that makes it really coffee-like just doesn't distill. Uh so you know, someone in the chat room or whatever, you know, send me some way of making something that tastes like coffee that's clear, and I'll uh I'll shout it on uh out. Um is that okay, Stas?
+
+[32:32] Yeah. Yeah. Uh Evan Christoff wrote in, can you please explain your dilution ratio in liquid intelligence? Uh I assume I follow order of operations just confused as someone as precise as you didn't use parentheses on page 123 for reference on dilution. All right, listen.
+
+[32:50] Evan, back when I wrote liquid intelligence, lo these many years ago, uh bartenders constantly gave uh what they called dilution, but they never would say what the dilution meant. And so when I wrote it, it was already a loaded term, and so I wasn't able to kind of make up exactly what I meant. So back then, a bartender, you didn't know if I said 20% dilution, does it mean that that the drink is 20% water? Does it mean I've taken my initial base and then taken 20% of it? So uh on page 122, I write uh this.
+
+[33:27] I'll just read what I wrote because uh I was in a much better frame of mind back when I wrote this. I was a couple years smarter uh in reverse. Uh dilution is measured in a percentage, right? So all of my dilutions are measured in percentage. If I quote a dilution of 50%, that means that every 100 milliliters of original cocktail recipe will be diluted with 50 milliliters of water, and the total drink size will be 150.
+
+[33:53] So I quoted it because a lot of bartenders are doing it in the same way. Uh, much like you calculate overrun in ice cream. So your initial cocktail is always scale to 100, right? And then the dilution is how much over that you um you create. So if it's 150, that's 50%.
+
+[34:13] If it if your finished cocktail is 120, that's 20%. If your finished cocktail is 200, that's 200%. Is that clear? I just need to make sure from people who are listening to me that I was clear in what I just said. All right.
+
+[34:26] All right. Uh and yes, there are but better ways to spec it, but when you're already dropped into a pit of people saying all kinds of crazy things, you kind of have to deal with what the pit says. The same way that now I say sous vide when I don't mean sous vide, I say because I've lost. Uh Ryan Fitz uh via email. Uh hey, uh B and D team.
+
+[34:46] That actually is an accurate way, except for Matt. Matt, you're not on the B and E team. You're not in the turbo team. Just kidding. It's true.
+
+[34:52] Andrew Lover. Yeah. Uh, but otherwise, that's a good way to talk about us. We are the B and D team. We even had Rebecca, the rest of the B N B and D team on the other day.
+
+[35:00] You know? Anyway. Is that the entire BND team? That's it. Is that true, Stas?
+
+[35:07] What am I missing? Am I missing the team? Yeah, you are. You're missing a bunch of people. That are on the Who am I missing, Dave.
+
+[35:14] What kind of question is that? What do you mean? I don't understand. I don't know where you're going with this. I don't understand where you're going with this.
+
+[35:21] Alright, you guys can figure out the size of the thing. Who's on our incredibly smaller? Or use us, right? In other words, like we there's other people that we work with occasionally, but you wouldn't say that you would say that they're people that we bring in. I would say Rebecca is on the team, right?
+
+[35:37] Because, like, you know, it's every, you know, every you know day we talk to her. But I wouldn't say that anyone else, like necessarily, if if our ship sank, they wouldn't ship sync with us. You know what I'm saying? That's the point. Uh anyway.
+
+[35:49] I don't know, but we're like, I don't know. Whatever. I don't know. Nastasia's mad at me. I don't know why.
+
+[35:54] No. Um is there anybody else on our team? No. Well, the question is how you define team. There's plenty of people that work with us.
+
+[36:02] Who? Right. We got our teams of, we got our like the people that we consult with for law, for patents. We got the people that we deal with with bookkeeping. We got people that we deal with for consulting on uh stuff like our aerodynamics.
+
+[36:17] They all work with us. Okay. We got people who are negotiating other deals with us, as you know. We got plenty of people that work with us. It's just a question of whether they're people you work with or whether they're on the team.
+
+[36:29] That's all I was asking. I see. Yeah. I think maybe it's what you're saying that you're like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know why, I don't know why that meant whatever.
+
+[36:40] Whatever. We'll get into it later. I'm sure I'll hear about it later. Uh I made my first Beef Wellington. We're back to Ryan Fitz's question.
+
+[36:46] I made my first beef wellington for Christmas, and overall it was a great success. Good. Uh for those of you that don't know, Beef Wellington is a tenderloin. Usually you'll sear that off. You'll mix it with uh like uh duck cells, which is uh um mushrooms and onions, like simmered down uh slow, cut fine, and pate.
+
+[37:06] You wrap that sucker on Cruit and you cook it off, you know, in a puff pastry and you cook it off and then you slice it. It's uh best eaten at things like weddings, although they always ruin it. What are your guys' thoughts on? I mean, Matt, I know you probably don't have many thoughts on beef wellington, but what what are your guys' thoughts on beef wellington? In other words, like, do you feel any sort of nostalgic paying for it?
+
+[37:26] Like, is it something that you like to see, don't like to see? No opinion. No opinion. John? No, I enjoy it.
+
+[37:35] I made one for Christmas two years ago. It was very tasty. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to me, like it's got a very specific kind of retro like childhood feel because that was it was more of a real dish when I was a kid than it is now. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[37:49] It was more even of a real, like if you would go to weddings in the 80s, like they would have beef a lot, like beef wellington was quite common. I feel like it was less common in the in the 90s, and probably like you probably don't even see it anymore in weddings, do you? I mean, I haven't been to a wedding recently. Nastasia, you've been to weddings. Do you see it ever?
+
+[38:07] I haven't been to one in a couple of years. Okay, well, a couple of years ago, which is more recent than me. Did you see them? No. Yeah.
+
+[38:14] Um, when you got that wedding invite in the mail and you like freaked out. Did you ever figure out who that was? I did. And is it someone in your life that you just forgot? I can't talk about it on here.
+
+[38:29] Are you serious? John, do you know about this? No, I didn't I didn't talk to anyone. I I thought I told you. John had to dig in through your email to find this person.
+
+[38:38] He didn't find them. John never found out who it was, and neither did you. We thought it was someone that we worked with. It isn't. I know the story now, but I can't say it on air.
+
+[38:47] Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, even I Nastasia always gives me crap for not keeping secrets.
+
+[38:56] Instead, she feels that we should she feels that we could be rich today if we didn't just give it all away as she used to say her grandma would do, right? Or no, what was it that you said about your grandma? No. Anyway, that's really shady, Dave. How is it shady?
+
+[39:09] It's shady because you had John and I digging through like everything. And then you don't have to be a good one. I found out a month later. I found out a month later. And you didn't even give us the answer.
+
+[39:18] You don't care about my life. What do you care about my life? Because you had us digging through all your stuff. John, back me up here. Yeah, we did do a lot of digging.
+
+[39:26] Would be nice to follow up on that. But if we have this phone call later, we can talk about it then. Yeah, but do you feel like I have personally uh what's it called? Is it is it do you feel as though an affront has been committed against you? The way Nastasia apparently feels.
+
+[39:41] I mean, not really, but it would I don't know. Like I guess, yeah. Why why wouldn't you give us the update? It'd be nice to know a little bit. Yeah.
+
+[39:51] Alright. Yeah. All right. Uh all right. So in my constant drive to perfection, I was wondering if you had any rec recommendations for taking uh a duck cell to the next level or any other tips and trips to tips and tricks to making a next level Wellington.
+
+[40:06] Well, uh a duck cell is pretty damn good. I don't really know what you can do other than just cook it real long and low and slow to get rid of a lot of the extra moisture without you don't want to go too much, or you don't want the the the mushrooms to become dry, but that's what butter is for. Um John, do you have any uh good duck cell uh technologies? Not really. I will recommend well recommend a book that I don't own.
+
+[40:31] I'll just claim throw that as a disclaimer. But The Pyrum by Callum Franklin. He's got this restaurant in London, and he pumps out beef wellingtons, and they just look fantastic. And his cookbook just came out, and I've heard very good things. Here's one thing I'm gonna say on on uh Wellington, and I know that a lot of people get bent at me because uh there's a certain person, his name is Kenji, and he for some reason doesn't believe in or for whatever reason low cooking for insurance.
+
+[40:57] He's just got a bug in his hat about it, and I don't know why, but what you wanna do with a beef wellington is okay, do an initial low temp on it just so you don't have to worry, all right? Like, I am a huge believer in not worrying about whether or not my thing is done yet, right? Huge believer. The problem with tenderloin is is that even if you cook tenderloin to its very, very lowest point, 54-4, which is the lowest thing that anyone's gonna tell you you can cook it for for like a long cook roast, you don't want to cook it that long. It gets fibery and nasty.
+
+[41:35] Tenderloin is quite small. So what you want to do is you want to put your tenderloin uh in the in the bag. You could sear it first or not, I don't care, right? Put it in the in in the in the bag in a zippy or whatever. You're gonna want to do 54 degrees for about 30 minutes, right?
+
+[41:51] 30, 34, then drop it to 52, leave it at 52 for like 45 minutes, an hour at 52, right? Uh that should be enough to get it all the way up to 52, maybe 53 if you've done it right, uh, all the way through. Maybe you could do 54 for 30 minutes, but don't go longer, right? Pull it out, chill it down. If you haven't already seared it, sear it now.
+
+[42:14] Build your wellington like that. Let the wellington come up to room temperature before you before you put it in, and then just cook it to worry about the puff pastry and nothing else, right? Kenji's point on Wellington was, I think, ill taken, which is if you cook the puff pastry right, it's gonna cook the beef wellington in the same amount of time. Maybe, maybe, but the whole thing's not the same thing. Just cook it, pre-cook it, make sure you don't make it tough, then don't worry about it.
+
+[42:45] Let it come up close to room temp, right? Or if you if you're if you think you're gonna overcook the Wellington, have the Wellington be cold. I haven't actually done the test on room temp versus cold on a Wellington. But just focus, so it could be the cold is actually a better answer now that I think about it. But just focus on cooking the puff pastry at that point and then pull it out immediately.
+
+[43:03] Uh, and I think it'd be a good thing. Also, the recipes nowadays, John, uh, they talk about using pâté, right? They still use pâté from that, right? I know. I've been seeing more like uh cured meats like Purjudo or uh Jambon Bayonne.
+
+[43:17] Along with the ducks? Yep. I always use pâté. I think it's delicious. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it is.
+
+[43:24] All right. Uh Mike wrote in from Toronto. Thanks for answering my question about the stiff starter for Panatone. Are we gonna get uh Roy Panatone on? I tell you I had that thing, right?
+
+[43:35] You did, yes, but I reached out to their company and I've not heard back. So they don't like us? That's fine. A lot of people don't like us. Uh I've done a lot more research.
+
+[43:43] I mean, what do they have to talk to us? They everyone's like, you know, uh like uh beating each other in the face to buy their $70 pantatone. They don't need to talk to you know some knuckleheads on uh on a on a podcast, you know what I mean? Very true. Uh I've done a lot more research in your guests from Harvard that spoke about using the lower hydration as a means for selecting different bacteria were correct.
+
+[44:02] That's why we had them talk about it. The lower hydration in combination with refreshment cycles are what lead to lactobacillus San Franciscans. I can't pronounce that. You know, like lactobacillus from San Francisco, fools. Uh being the dominant bacteria, but also allows other bacteria to be present in lower populations.
+
+[44:17] I also wanted to recommend uh sourdough panatone and uh vienoiserie. How do you pronounce that accurately, uh, John? Viennoiserie. You're pretty good. By uh Thomas uh Teffrey uh Chamberlain?
+
+[44:32] It's a very odd way of spelling Chamberlain. Uh it's a new book, but I think it would qualify for a classic in the field segment. Ah, well, maybe we'll talk to Thomas. Uh anyway, thanks for doing the show. Uh certainly a highlight every week.
+
+[44:42] Happy New Year, Mike from Toronto. Not a question, just a statement. Thanks for the feedback. Wally wrote in via the chat room, hey, science question. When I'm making mayonnaise with a stick blender, uh, what makes it sometimes stick to the blender and other times just sloth off cleanly?
+
+[44:56] Wally. Hmm. I don't know. Uh if have you noticed that? Uh have any of you noticed this effect?
+
+[45:02] No, I haven't. I'm gonna bet that um if the blender hits oil first, maybe that's gonna protect it a little bit. Whereas if it hits egg yolk first, uh maybe like uh there's some sort of micro attachment of the uh of the you know, the emulsifiers and the egg yolk, like sticking to the um blender and that's causing it to stick more, whereas if it's just straight oil, it'll slip off the same way that does anyone still, when they're measuring honey with a spoon, hit a l with a little spray grease and then put the in the cup? No. No, but that's not a bad idea.
+
+[45:37] Yeah, that's what you do. Especially if your recipe doesn't have to be a hundred percent fat free and you're doing a Pyrex, just like one quick spritz with a with the spray grease and the pyrex, and then honey's gonna slip right the hell out. Pro tip. Alright. Kieran wrote in via email.
+
+[45:52] Uh hey, hey Nastasia. I hope you're well. Just wondering, would you be able to answer on the show? If chestnut flour hydrates, I'm assuming we mean chestnut and not water chestnut. By the way, which one of you were the one?
+
+[46:02] I know my everyone knows my wife hates water chestnuts, but one of you is also a water chestnut hater. Which one is it? I don't like them. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of them either. Matt, what about you?
+
+[46:12] Don't tell me you've never had a water chestnut. I'm gonna research this microphone. You know the internet connection's getting weird again. Uh all right. Have you had a water chestnut, Matt?
+
+[46:25] I d I don't know. I don't think I don't know. Crunchy white thing, knob shaped in a soup, or maybe hacked up in a stir fry, and you're like, oh, I'm about to eat a piece of ginger. Why does it look so white? Oh, it's crunchy and doesn't taste like ginger.
+
+[46:43] That thing. I think we've been through this. Feels very familiar. We've been through this before. I was like, is it this one thing?
+
+[46:48] And you were like, no, that's lotus root, and then I was like, I don't know, man. Alright, listen. Kieran. Uh also, uh, what can you use it in? Have you had any experience working with it?
+
+[46:57] We're talking about chestnut flour. Uh, emailing from Ireland, love the show. Kieran. All right. So there are two things I just want to make sure because we weren't clear on exactly what you meant.
+
+[47:05] There's water chestnut starch, which is uh rare in the in the US and probably in Europe. Caltrop is the other thing to look up for that. Caltrop, C-A-L trop. Um, but very common as a fry dust, frying pre-dust in uh Asia, and Nils used to use it um a lot for um for frying things, but back from when he was, you know, working in Asia. Uh that stuff, any pure starch, you can put it into suspension, but it doesn't hydrate so well, right?
+
+[47:39] In other words, the way that starches are made is they're called wet milled, and the granules don't break up. And that's why if you take a pure starch, like a cornstarch, and not a you know, that's not pre-gelatinized, and you mix it with water, and then you leave for an hour and you come back, it will have settled to the bottom, right? And that's why it's hard sometimes to make pure batters out of cornstarch and things like that, and why you need to constantly remix them. It's also an issue with a lot of pure starch gluten-free based uh recipes because it doesn't quote unquote hydrate until it's hotter, right? Um chestnut f any flour usually has broken up starch, which will hydrate somewhat, uh, even if it's hasn't been heated up, and other things that do hydrate, things like protein.
+
+[48:23] Um chestnut flour, I've only used it uh in um Italian chestnut cakes. There's an Italian chestnut cake that I make where I have used chestnut flour when I'm too lazy to boil and pass chestnuts through a mill, or as a second best to buy precooked chestnuts and pass them through a mill because passing things through a food mill sucks. But um, you know, I so fundamentally this recipe is very similar to an angel food cake, but made with chestnut flour, and it works fine for that. So I'm gonna say does hydrate, but I don't have that much experience with it. Any of you guys uh have any chestnut flour experience?
+
+[48:58] Nope. Yeah. I'm and I asked if I should do anything with it for this question, and I was told that I'm not sure. But you had some or you didn't have some. Dave, I told you that.
+
+[49:08] I know. She said she was willing to do it. Look, what do you want to do with it, Styles? What do you want to test in it? You don't like baking though, right?
+
+[49:15] No. It's fine. Hey, do you want to hear something that Booker's not Booker's not listening? Yep. He swears on a stack of Bibles he's gonna make you hit your your cake for when you come back.
+
+[49:27] He's like everyone but on his on his time, he's like, I'm gonna make it on the 16th, but then you're gonna pick it up whenever you get here because I only have the sixteenth to make it like it's a very specific day. Well, you know, he's like that. But he's like he keeps every day, he's like, Dad, on this date, I'm gonna need this amount of space in the fridge and the freezer because I got I'm gonna have to make this cake and blah blah blah. I want him to make it for me on Valentine's Day. I need to t I'll I'll text him.
+
+[49:55] Okay. All right. Um Alexander Talgar wrote in, oh, it's not Talgar, though, it's tailguard, right? I don't remember. Oh wait, spoken like the English word tail, yeah.
+
+[50:05] Uh and then guard. Hope that makes sense. Uh thanks for the help with my red hot poker. It ended up working great. Regarding that, uh, I just wanted to know if you can give me a double recipe to test the difference between using the poker and hot water.
+
+[50:15] Uh yeah, I mean like any one of the recipes in the book, you look when you're any one of the recipes in the book, just divide it in half and do w do one and one. You'll see the difference. You know what I mean? And it makes sense to me. Anyway, I was wondering about honey.
+
+[50:30] I know it's possible, uh, and kind of dumb, but I want to separate the sugars from honey. How can this be done? I don't have much fancy equipment other than a center fusion of Vitamix. I was wondering about um liqueurs, traditional recipes here always have you add fruit, uh, alcohol and sugar at once. Is there any reason to add the sugar uh at this step rather than after you have separated the alcohol from the fruit?
+
+[50:50] Uh I don't know. Look, anytime you're adding sugar to an infusion or anything else, it's gonna be different whether you add it before and after. So typically what people do is they do recipe development and they like it and then they codify it and then they don't change it. And very few people have ever tested like whether they actually like it better by adding it at one point or another. And that's how nine-tenths of all recipes work.
+
+[51:12] Uh back to, so the answer is I don't know. And the and the other thing is that I'm sure the results will be different whether you add sugar at one stage or the other, but I don't know what the result will be or which one you will like more. As to separating the sugars from honey, it there I wasn't quite clear on exactly what you meant, right? So honey is sugar, uh, a little tiny bit of water, and then other stuff. If what you mean is getting rid of the water, plenty of people out there will um put honey onto like uh onto a silpat with edges, throw it in a dehydrator, uh, dehydrate it the rest of the way, crack it up and you know, break it into uh a solid sugar.
+
+[51:54] The reason it's so hard to dehydrate is because it's it's inverted, right? So you need to get almost all the sugar out, and it's always gonna be hygroscopic, it's always gonna suck up water. Um if that's what you mean, I don't really but I don't really understand what else you could mean by it. So hit us back with what you mean by separating the sugar out from honey. Do any of you guys have a different understanding than what I'm saying?
+
+[52:15] Yeah. If what you mean is you want to get rid of the sugar and just have the aroma, you can distill it, right? But you said you don't have a distillation thing. Another thing you could do is um if you want just the flavor of the honey, but not the sugar, so if what you mean is separate the sugar and throw it away, right? If you get very, very high-proof alcohol, uh, the sugar will not be soluble in the high-proof alcohol.
+
+[52:38] So what you do is it's almost like fat washing, but sugar washing, is you add the very, very high-proof alcohol to the honey, stir it up a couple of times, let it settle, refreeze it, because that's gonna even more uh make the sugar less soluble in the in the alcohol, and then decant it, uh very little of the sugar should be in the alcohol, and the alcohol will contain a good bit of any of the alcohol soluble flavors in the honey. That maybe that's what they meant. Is it is that is that a better answer? Yes. All right.
+
+[53:08] Uh 91 Alex via the chat room. Hey, what's a good way to make chili oil? I thought about heating up a neutral oil, rapeseed, uh, and adding fresh chilies to roast them, uh adding fresh chilies to roast them a bit and get that good flavor, then putting it off the heat, wait until chilled, separate out the water uh with a centrifuge, would this work? Yep, we do it all the time. But you don't even need to heat it.
+
+[53:28] So if you want to use like fresher chilies or whatever, Nastasi and I used to make that garlic chili oil with the centrifuge, it was delicious, right, Sasha? Yeah, it was good. Delicious, delicious. Just look in if you have a spinzall, just look in the instructions under um oils. Because the trick is you're gonna the nice thing about it is you just keep adding water until you get the last of the oil out and your your yield is is uh is really high.
+
+[53:51] What one of the problems making chili oils is that people do heat up the oil quite a bit. And uh I don't want to go too much into it because uh the buzzer's gonna go off, but everyone, when they talk about fry oils, what's the one thing they talk about? Answers, answers back. What's the one thing everyone talks about when they talk about fry oils? Smell?
+
+[54:10] Smoke point. Smoke point, but Nastasia's got the actual more important answer, which is smells. Everyone talks about smoke point as though that's the be all and end all. And you should choose something that has a relatively high smoke point. However, oils that taste completely neutral at room temperature and that have relatively high smoke points, as they start to break down, which all oils do when they're heated, especially in the in the in um presence of water, oxygen, right?
+
+[54:36] Some of them make nasty fishy smells. And I happen to not like canola when it's heated up because a lot of canola is high in linolenic acid, which when it's heated breaks down and makes those nasty, fishy, off-smelling odors. So just because something has a very high smoke point doesn't mean that it's good for frying. And corn oil, which is not good in salads, right? Right, once you heat it, a lot of the coriness kind of goes away and it's good in fried foods.
+
+[55:03] Now, if you're gonna eat it once it cools back down again, maybe not so good, but neutrality when cold and high smoke point does not a good fry oil make. Does that make sense? I like that Nastasia thinks about the smell of it because that's what's important, isn't it, Nastasia? Not whether it's freaking smoking in the kitchen. It's as it smelled nasty.
+
+[55:23] Stas, when we used to do those classes and they would overheat the oil when they were using for frying and the entire kitchen because they didn't have real deep fat fryers, smelled like that busted up, burnt out oil. Did that not make you want to vomit? Real bad. Real bad. Real bad.
+
+[55:36] I feel like I've been like sensitized to this busted oil. If you guys knew what percentage of spent fry oil is not fresh oil, you would be shocked. Shocked. I mean, like, I've been reading all of the data on like when you're supposed to pull a fry oil. Now, a little bit of a little bit of like free fatty acids, a little bit of polymerization, I mean, that's good, right?
+
+[56:01] That increases the amount of uh of heat you could put into your food, and you can't get that really primo fried flavor with hyper fresh oil. But we're talking like oil, like right before you pull it out of uh of um of commission, only like two-thirds of it is still like quote unquote fresh oil. It's it's full of these like heavier weight polymers and it's full of uh free fatty acids, which is why it foams like a mother, which is why you ever notice how spent oil just looks thick. Yeah, it's because it's partially polymerized, right? And so uh, yes, like spent spent oil is some nasty business, nasty business.
+
+[56:46] Which is why, interestingly, um, do you guys, when you fry, do you save the oil or not? Okay, how many times do you use it? Right. Uh so obviously, like it's best if you strain it that night. I never have the energy to strain it that night, I just don't.
+
+[57:06] But if you cover it better, keep it away from light, don't store it in light, that's gonna help you a lot. And making sure that you don't keep food particles in it for too long is gonna uh help you uh a lot. Um go online if you want to reuse your oil, and it is quite expensive to throw away oil all the time. Mirror oil, mirror oil. It's a commercial product.
+
+[57:30] I don't know why they don't sell it to home people. You can buy packets, mirror oil. You buy mirror oil uh and you add a little bit of it, and it contains um antioxidants and protectants for the oil, and it should keep use, you know, use the amount that it tells you to use. But like I I've never personally had that much experience with it, but I spoke to Wiley, and he used it in his donut fryers all the time, and it kept the oil in the donut fryer fresh for like four times as long as otherwise, and you're using only a small amount of it, and it will save your oil. Mirror oil.
+
+[57:59] That's my that's my tip. So, for those of you that don't know, we have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven questions. We're gonna bang those out next week. No guests next week, right? We're gonna bang it out.
+
+[58:14] We'll have a brand new president, brand new show, brand new us. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[58:31] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[58:53] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRM family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
+
+[0:30] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[1:00] This episode is brought to you by Dashable, an app that helps you find deals, save money, and earn rewards at local businesses in New York City. This week on Meet and Three, we head into the second part of our mini-series on global trade, where we talk about all things sweet, from chocolate and sugar cane to the cultural festival that accompanied the growth of the date industry in the U.S. They're using this romance and fantasy to say dates are exotic and you should consume them. I like to think of the food that we eat as archaeological artifacts, in part because the history of humanity is in the stands in your produce market. It's not like other foods.
+
+[1:42] We have very like personal feelings about chocolate. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever. You know, whatever.
+
+[2:11] We're all over the all over the country here. I got I'm in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. We got uh Matt. Are you back in Robert's or are you back in Rhode Island now? I'm in Rhode Island, but I actually went to my parents' house for this recording because I was so worried about my internet functioning.
+
+[2:24] So a different booth. I see. I see. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, still in California. How you doing?
+
+[2:32] Good. We have one more show from here next week, and Jack and Aaron want to join. Cool. Uh the the poll cat, Aaron the Pole Cat. Uh-huh.
+
+[2:43] But he says he wants you to talk about his live wire. Who what? What he wants to talk about live wire. Okay, but like I'm most interested. What I most want to hear is I most want to get Jack and Aaron in an argument about uh date wines.
+
+[3:06] Yeah. Yeah, we can probably set up the channel. You never talked about the thing that you wanted to do. What? You never talked about the thing you wanted to do with both of them.
+
+[3:16] Oh, me. Well, but they did. Should we just let people know since neither of them are listening? Can we just tell people what Yeah, we can't do it anyway because of COVID. Well, yeah, I mean, eventually, you know, this will pass.
+
+[3:27] But so the concept was is I'm gonna refresh for those of you that uh, you know, weren't weren't around when when this argument happened. But Jack Insley, Jackie Molecules, the original engineer for the cooking issues program, uh, you know, we're still friends with him, right? And he was saying he's out in California right now for the COVID, and he was saying that uh he had an issue with uh the wine that was at this date. Is that is that accurate? It was a Merlot and he hated it.
+
+[3:56] Is this correct? It was a cheap bottle of Merlot that his date brought over, yeah. Yeah. And he was like, the hell is this? But basically, right?
+
+[4:03] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Aaron was like, you're an evil human being. Who cares what the what the wine was, et cetera, et cetera. Is that am I am I fairly accurate?
+
+[4:14] Like in this, in this time of COVID, the wine contains alcohol. I'm sure it's not so overtly flawed that uh it's completely, you know, undrinkable and will poison you, right? For instance, it t tastes better than some people's well water, and uh just suck it up and don't be a jerk. That was the the gist, right? Mm-hmm.
+
+[4:33] Keep your eyes on the prize. Yeah. Now listen, yeah. I think we can all agree that that in the world of extreme rock bottom low priced wines, perhaps California extreme low price Merlot might be the worst. Yeah.
+
+[4:51] You know, that's something that we maybe you don't, dear listener, but we as a cooking issues collective do agree. So anyway, so that what we wanted to do, what Nastasia and I really, really, really wanted to do was to go buy like an ocean of crappy uh Merlot. In fact, you called a company. Did they ever get back to you? Emailed.
+
+[5:12] No, they never got back. Who did we email? Do you remember? Yellowtail. Oh, yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:17] Nastasia. Well, Nastasia's uh punching bag of choice. Uh, if you go to her house. If you really want to piss Nastasia off, should you ever be invited to her house, which is eh, I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Unlikely.
+
+[5:28] If you bring uh yellowtail, that that is like that's super trigger for her, anyway. So she was gonna try to buy how many gallons? You did the math, Dave. I did the math, but I don't remember the numbers. I don't remember, no.
+
+[5:42] Yeah, it's like something like a hundred gallons or something, right? Or 55 gallons or something. Yeah. And we were going to do a Merlot Jell-O wrestling match for charity. Between Aaron Polk, Aaron Polski, the poll cat, you know, a former uh Harvard and Stone, now he now has his own uh canned cocktail company and Jackie Molecules, and we were since I couldn't be there, because you know, whatever, I was going to uh I was going to get a computer monitor and put it on the end of a stick, and we were gonna have someone with my head screaming at them as like the let's get ready, let's get ready to rumble that guy, but like you can't actually say it like he does, or you'll get sued.
+
+[6:25] Uh, but like my head on the end of a stick, and then I would officiate and like Nastasi would be there and it would be great. But they disagreed. They really didn't want to do it, and they each separately texted me telling me to shut you up, Dave. Shut me up? You're the one that just brought it up.
+
+[6:40] No, no, no, no. The day you you came up with this idea. Yeah. But like I mean, I don't know, like, I don't know, like, I understand what they're getting at. Like somehow they feel like their personal like life brand, not like money brand, but like their life brand, right?
+
+[6:58] Like their dating app, let's say, their their profile will be damaged by this. But do you really think so? I'm not a guy. I don't know. What do you guys think?
+
+[7:08] No, but you're their target, not you specifically, but you they you know, they're both interested in women. So I'm saying is that it would this is it would this be a negative in their if if you found out that they had done this, would you be like, no way? Yeah. Oh. So they're right.
+
+[7:24] What if we just had the words for charity? Were those words already included? Uh I included them, but that's okay. Nastasia is saying that it doesn't affect her uh decision. All right.
+
+[7:36] Well, it's hard to separate the person from the, you know. I don't want to date either of them. Well, okay. Let's say, you know. So let's say that there is someone that you don't know, and they're on the margins of and they're on the dating app and they have photos of them jello rest.
+
+[7:56] No, no, no, no, no one said that. What I'm saying is is that then, like, okay, I'll give you an example. In the course of conversation, it comes out, they're like, oh yeah, by the way, this is a thing that I have done. Yeah. I'll give you an example.
+
+[8:10] So in college, I think I said this on the air before, in college, so when I was young, I wanted to uh chop trees down. I didn't want to necessarily be a professional lumberjack, but I wanted to be able to go out into the woods and chop trees down. And you know, because when I was splitting wood for you know, spare you know, money, you know, when I was a kid, a piece of a so a piece of the mall, which is the thing that you split the wood with, like, came off and shot into my leg, and I had to go and get it surgically removed. It was a pain in the butt. Anyway, from there on out, like I wasn't allowed to talk about owning an axe.
+
+[8:46] I wasn't allowed to talk about chopping trees down. It was like I couldn't talk about it in the house, I wasn't allowed to do it. So, like, honestly, like within the first like month of going to college, I bought an axe. And I was like, you know, I'm on my own now. I can have what I want.
+
+[8:59] I've always wanted to own an axe, so now I have an axe. And uh it turns out that other people in your dorm think you're crazy for having an axe as it as it happens. And so I found out much later, like when I was a junior and I started going out with my now wife, Jen. She told me that people were going around telling women to not go out with me because I was a lunatic and I had an axe. I mean, I had other issues, but like, you know, that was, you know, one of them, right?
+
+[9:35] And so uh what I'm saying is is this like that? So if someone's like, that idiot was in a jello wrestling match. So like if your friend told you that, would that like ruin it for you, Stus? That's what I'm trying to find out. No.
+
+[9:47] But the rest of their lives would bum me out. It wasn't supposed to be a referendum on Jackie Molecules. No. The question is is this a relative net, a relative minus, a relative plus, a relative minus, or a relative neutral in their life? Neutral, neutral, neutral.
+
+[10:08] All right, this is a long way to go to find that simple answer. Oh my goodness. Uh oh, before we get going, we had a we had a question come back into the chat. So Ed Ed and Camera claims in the last episode, 438, Peter Flanagan wrote in for a toaster oven recommendation. But the tale of his sad slash scary microwave provided just enough tangential distraction that it ended up being a discussion of microwave detection, cooktop ventilation, and microwave recommendations.
+
+[10:39] As someone who was recently looking at toaster ovens, I too was curious to hear Dave's thoughts. Any chance of revisiting the toaster oven recommendations? Well, what were the what were the parameters? Everything is about parameters, right? So, like, you know, uh, you know, what do you are you literally interested in just a slice of toast?
+
+[10:56] You know that you can buy this the Japanese toaster maker that costs three uh toast maker that costs $300, I think, and makes only two slices of toast and cooks nothing else. I've never had the toast out of that machine, so I can't tell you whether it's uh any good. Um I know some people were trying to buy the Cuisinar Combi oven toaster to try to mimic that. Uh like I had bad luck with that unit because I thought the controls were bad and the grate was terrible. It was unbelievable.
+
+[11:22] It's like the the the lines between the grate on that were so farly spaced so far spaced apart that your bread would literally sag down. Nightmare. Um, I mean, I use the brevel, I like it, but I forget was this person did they want like a stand-up toaster? Did they want like a toaster oven? Like, is the size important?
+
+[11:43] I don't remember what the parameters were. Uh you see what I'm saying? Yes, I do see what you're saying. Because, like, what what I would tell someone to buy, for instance, is it is it important for you to look cool? If it's important for you to look cool, the dual it looks nice.
+
+[11:59] And it and the toast is fine. You know what I mean? You like, are you guys fans of the dual it? I don't know. It's the one that looks a little bit like an airstream, it's British.
+
+[12:08] Oh. You know what I mean? Real fancy. Anyway. For what it's worth, Jim in the chat weighs in and says if I were buying a new toaster oven today, I'd buy the ANOVA since you get what amounts to a residential combi oven experience.
+
+[12:22] Well, that's uh that isn't interesting because uh we are talking to them about trying to get one to test out and then have them come on and we'll talk about uh home combi ovens. That's in the works, is it not, John? It is, yes. And it's it doesn't sound like an if. It sounds like this is going to happen and you will be testing it out, so we'll have an update for everyone soon.
+
+[12:43] All right, but the point is is that I can't talk about it because I haven't tried it. Exactly. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, I can talk about it, but it'll be useless to you because I can't I I will not recommend something that I have not tried, uh, you know, unless it comes extremely highly recommended from a friend, and then I have to give all the caveats, etc.
+
+[12:59] etc. Okay. I've never even touched one in the real life. Um, go for it. No, no, I thought you were going to move to a different question.
+
+[13:07] I have a follow-up from uh Matt at Kitchen Arts and Letters. Oh, oh. Uh I'll move to a different question because we'll talk more about wet bulb, dry bulb, dew point, humidity, ovens, the difficulty measuring therein, and the fact that I just had to cancel a 250 dollar order on on the phone uh because nothing measures humidity the way I want. And we'll move on. We'll move back to this question that uh we we uh we got.
+
+[13:29] So John, go for it. Yeah, so last week we answered a question from Alex Edwards, who was wondering about uh the administrative books about the administrative side of being a chef. Uh, and we asked Matt Sartwell at Kitchen Arts and Letters, and here is his answer. There's a book called Work Clean by Dan Charnis, which applies chef lessons to the larger idea of managing your life. And Eric Repairs on the line was an inside look at how LaBernard Down was organized, though it is unfortunately out of print.
+
+[13:58] But when it comes to a hard look at staffing, cost control, purchasing, etc., the market fragments into very specific books, which are developed for use in large-scale restaurant and hotel schools and concerned with running very large operations. They're dry, nuts and bolts titles that are not about imagination. To be honest, we've not been going deep in these areas because the books have become expensive in the way of textbooks these days, often well over $125. And they frequently, bafflingly, start with incredibly rudimentary discussions, such as the difference between front and back of the house. And that's what he's got.
+
+[14:33] And let me just put this out there. Anytime you want to know, is there a good book on X, Y, and Z? And is it really good or not? A good thing to do is to call or email Kitchen Arts and Letters, and they will know. But I will say that I feel that you're a little bit then morally obligated to buy it from them.
+
+[14:55] Would you not agree? Probably, yeah. Yeah. The out of print one, the repair, go you can, you know, I think that's fair game. Just go on ABE.
+
+[15:04] I don't think that one cost too much. I think it was on a tour for that book when he told I went to some talk he gave, and he told me the magical LaBernard Dan tasting trick. You remember this one, guys? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:21] The standard cheese. Standard cheese, life changer. I have not figured out what my standard cheese is, but at La Bernard Dan, for those of you that didn't hear me say it before, Eric Ripaire had a standard, crappy, uh, you know, available supermarket, completely uniform cheese. I believe it was Kraft Swiss. And they would eat a block of it, like everyone would eat a block of it every day before service before they went around and tasted all their mise en plus, so they could figure out, oh, my nose isn't working so well today, my palate's messed up today, etc.
+
+[15:57] etc. Um, anyways. Um, and I have a question out there if anyone can help me out. Uh so I had someone ask me on Twitter, uh, you know, they're cooking for someone who uh has you know had just had the COVID and had an osmia, you know, hopefully temporary anosmia, which is where you can't really smell and so it ruins your sense of taste, and was wondering what dishes are good for them. I asked my wife because she had um she had some anosmia after, you know, she had uh COVID, and uh and I was like, so is there anything that kind of makes it through that's good when you can't smell?
+
+[16:30] And she's like, No, it all sucks, it sucks, it's it's ruined everything, food's ruined. No. So like she didn't give me anything good. So if anyone out there has had any good experiences trying to make things for people that can't uh smell, uh, let me know. Uh all right.
+
+[16:44] Actually, real quick, I have a personal plug too. Uh if anybody, any listeners out there know anything about tapping maple trees. Please let me know. Yeah, for those of you that for those of you that are he's in Connecticut, right? So you're talking about maple trees in Connecticut.
+
+[17:02] I know we have a listener who wrote in a couple of times about vacuum dehydration on maple. So if you're still a listener, John wants to do it, and then he's gonna be you you're gonna be like our roving uh like correspondent on tapping maples. You're gonna give a like a week by week blow by blow, right? That is the plan, as long as the timing works up for when I can tap them, because it's a week where I can't be here. And you you're not interested necessarily in making eight boatloads of this stuff.
+
+[17:34] You just you just want like uh, you know, somewhere between a core to a half gallon of stuff, right? Yeah. I'm fairly certain the Harry Rosenbloom of Feast Your Ears uh has done that in Rhode Island, so I could definitely put you in touch with him. Who knows what's up? Yeah, actually no Harry, so I can I'll shoot him a message.
+
+[17:55] Yeah, thanks for that. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay.
+
+[17:59] Um now listen, what's the question that Nastasi said I had to get to today about something about the sun, or should we answer a food question first? Should we answer a food question? Yeah, I do a food question. Let's do a food question. And then you you find it.
+
+[18:11] All right. Um Brian Garrick wrote in. Uh, hey there. I recently read about two different techniques to preserve the tomato harvest. One, preserving in ash, right?
+
+[18:24] So this is where uh someone I believe in um in Burundi, uh who has who grows tomatoes, uh says that if you pack the tomatoes in boxes full of ash, like the stuff left over from fires, ash, that they last, so says he, for uh months. Now, I wasn't able to f and by last, I mean not supposedly dehydrated like they last, like you can eat them. Uh now uh John and I looked at an excruciatingly long video this morning of someone in Canada who attempted to uh recreate this t preserving tomato in ash kind of a situation. And uh what happened was that they didn't spoil, probably because the ash is a desiccating, so it's you know, it's stopping it from getting too moist on the outside, and probably the uh pH of the ash prevents mold growth uh and whatnot on the outside of the tomatoes, so they don't um they don't spoil in the way that a standard uh tomato would spoil. Now he didn't show pictures of it when it was a couple of months in, but he said that they felt kind of like water balloons.
+
+[19:36] Now the the downside is that uh because he was in Canada and he stored it over the winter, it was like stupid cold and very low humidity. So they completely desiccated and turned into small little discs. My guess is is that in Burundi with a much higher uh humidity that you get much less evaporation, and the closer you are to uh saturated in the in your humidity, the less chance you are of it um uh of it desiccating. And so then you're in a situation where it's not quote unquote spoiling, right? Because it's not molding, but it's also uh not desiccating, right?
+
+[20:13] Now, is that gonna taste good? That I can't tell you. Uh, but I was gonna say that the the guy in Canada had uh no luck. The second one you said was hanging, and you're pointing out uh picture of some people hanging uh tomatoes in, I I think the one that you sent me was uh it was Italy or Spain or something. And uh I was wondering if you have any thoughts on doing this, i.e., hanging tomatoes or packing them in ash at home next season.
+
+[20:37] This way I can have winter tomatoes that are actually delicious. Why don't they rot? Is it a technique or a varietal? Will this work for other fruits and veggies? What about temperature?
+
+[20:45] Is that an issue? I recall you and a cooking issues guest, perhaps Daniel Gritzer did a refrigerated tomato test and thought that cold storage destroyed the flavor. Uh now listen, do you think that taste would be compromised with either of these techniques? I mean, for sure taste is gonna be compromised and texture. But Daniel and I had a big disagreement.
+
+[21:01] Let's go back. I have my whole life, because this is the way I was taught since I was a small person, that putting tomatoes in the fridge is an enemy, it makes you an enemy of quality because the texture turns mealy. Daniel Gritzer, because he's a contrarian, right? Right, Stasman, he's a contrarian fellow. He's a contrarian.
+
+[21:18] I like him, but he's a contrarian fella. He's one of those guys, he always has a smile on his face, but he'll always tell you that like whatever you thought was wrong, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Not in a mean way.
+
+[21:29] Um, so uh anyway, so he was like actually, I ran he and he ran a bunch of tests, right? And so he says that, you know, if you're some sort of monocle-wearing uh, you know, wine fridge owner, which I I am, I was given one, so I have a like a wine cooler, you can uh keep them in that and that's good. But keeping them on the shelf, um, they respire too quickly and they actually lose some of their um good flavor and aroma versus putting it in a fridge, which will eventually make the texture worse. But all in all, the ones he tested, uh he was better off keeping them in the fridge. Now, it's too long to go into here, but that's what the that's what we had Daniel Gritzer on.
+
+[22:12] Now, the one that you're talking about, the ash, I'm gonna go ahead and say that uh I haven't met or seen anyone that's tasted the actual one from this dude in Burundi after the six months. But the one the guy in Canada washed off the dehydrated one and said it tasted nasty, like it musty, like like super nasty. Now, could work in Burundi, don't know. I haven't wasn't able to find any uh scientific articles on it. The hanging tomatoes is in fact a variety.
+
+[22:38] So the famous uh Iberian peninsula, like you know, you I guess I think of it mainly as Catalonian, like uh tomato with bread. They've they've over the years developed special varieties of tomato that can be hung, right? And they maybe desiccate a little bit, but in they're designed in the atmosphere in which they grow to last for months and months, uh just hanging upside down, either tied onto a string, like tomato by tomato, uh, and and then they're meant to be cut in half and rubbed into toasted bread to make the uh you know bread with tomato, the famous bread with tomato dish that they have there. It will not work with standard ones. So if you go to the uh a good review of this is the an article uh that the EU put out called The Valorization of Hanging Tomatoes in Spain.
+
+[23:30] Uh and it talks, it's an interesting article about how there's uh congruent or I should say uh co-breeding. So it's not just one variety, people all in that in that area all selected four varieties that would last longer when hung and just ate the ones that go bad and then planted the ones that lasted long year after year. So there's a number of different varieties of these hanging tomatoes, but they're not standard uh tomato in the same way that apples that are meant to be kept for a long time aren't the standard apple. So you'd have to get a hold of this variety. You can buy this variety in uh in the United States, the seed in the United States.
+
+[24:06] I've never tried it. Uh it also requires that you uh do not irrigate. They need to be a relatively low moisture tomato for it to work. Was that a good enough answer, guys? Yeah.
+
+[24:15] All right. From Highbation via Instagram. Hey Dave, uh, you've been featuring a lot of articles talking about non-alcoholic cocktails that I've come across. I'm trying to create my own non-alcoholic spirit using distillation at home. Aiming for something similar to seed lip.
+
+[24:30] Can I can we just have we mentioned this? Why would you name your I we I know I've met them, but like seed lip sounds not pleasant, right? What's wrong with that guy? He's got a seed lip. Doesn't sound good, right?
+
+[24:43] Never had it. No, I'm saying the name. I mean, like, in other words, like the way that you hate the word spore, I think seed lip sounds like something's wrong. Yeah. I see that.
+
+[24:54] Yeah. Uh and ritual zero proof. Any advice on this process, where to look or who to talk to about creating something like this. Uh also just want to recognize how rough this past year has been on your industry. And it was unfortunate to read about the closed and existing conditions.
+
+[25:07] Yeah. It was even more unfortunate to live it. Uh, but thank you. Uh I hope things will be looking up again soon. Thanks, Donovan.
+
+[25:13] So here's my here's my question to you, Donovan. Is uh when you say a s a spirit, look, most people who are making non-alcoholic uh spirits, right? Or whatever you want to call them, zero-proof spirits, they're looking to sell you something that you can then mix into uh into cocktails one-to-one for a spirit or like a spirit. And that's not really kind of what I'm an that's not really what I'm an uh I would say an expert in or what I've been um working on, right? So for that you could, you know, distill a bunch of flavors.
+
+[25:49] The trick is is uh trying to, you know, you have to add um people sometimes try to add a little something cooling or something to provide some stuff for your trigeminal uh your trigeminal nerve, so you get some of that bit of cooling, but they also need to add body, so like if you're smart, you're gonna add some glycerin. Uh you need to add uh probably something that has a little bit of polyphenol, some tannins to give it a little bit of complexity, and usually some kind of an herb base, right? That's and that's typically what people are doing. Um, but uh but those things I I find it's much easier to make really good non-alcoholic drinks if instead of focusing on a non-alcoholic spirit, you focus on a um you focus on non-alcoholic cocktails and then constructing the whole flavor from the ground up because it gives you much more volume to work with. When you're making a non-alcoholic spirit, the entire volume of that non-alcoholic spirit, the water portion of it, right, is now accounted for and gives you less room to work with in your non-alcoholic cocktail.
+
+[26:50] Does that make sense? So in general, I I focus on cocktails rather than trying to you know make spirits, but if you're going to distill, you can distill things that have nice, uh a lot of things distill well. They don't necessarily distill well into water just because uh they'll be relatively fugitive. So when you're doing uh water based distillations like hydrosols, you're gonna want to use them very, very quickly. Um glycerin, vegetable glycerin is is gonna be your friend.
+
+[27:16] And in general, uh, like I say, try to include some plant-based materials that'll give some sort of either skin contact kind of a feeling or some sort of uh astringency or some sort of polyphenols like you might get from wood and add a little something that's gonna get some herbal complexities like non tea, like teas like tasans are typically good as are uh herbal things. Is this uh that make any sense, guys? Does that make sense? Yes, yeah. All right.
+
+[27:40] Uh all right. If you're gonna do it professionally, right, that's when they try to make ones that you can buy one unit and then mix them into various cocktails, right? Because it's a different problem. Uh and then they're trying to mimic certain flavors, like this mimic the flavor of rum, but I don't think that's what you're trying to do. Okay.
+
+[27:57] Uh from Josh Whitland via Instagram. I hope you and the uh B and D slash H R N crew are doing well. I can't find any concrete answers on this, so I thought uh probably uh pay to ask you. I want to make a classic burger bun, but no matter what I try, I cannot get the store-bought style squishiness where the bun has more of a paper thin skin instead of a crust and a soft pillowy crumb that bounces back post-squish. All online recipes result in a bun that doesn't squish.
+
+[28:23] What's the secret to achieving this? I don't own a steam function oven. So I've tried a Dutch oven technique, still with no joy. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. All the best, Josh from uh Somerset, UK.
+
+[28:34] Man, I wish I could go back to Somerset. The cider there is so good. Cider's so good. Um, listen. Uh the question is this.
+
+[28:43] So uh there's a continuum between uh like white like white bread, like you know, like crusty white bread, right, and brioche. And in between that continuum somewhere, right, in between like a crusty dinner roll and a brioche roll lies, I think the hamburger bun that you want. So if you think about brioche, right? Brioche is squishy and has a thin crust, right? Because the stuff they wash on the outside of the brioche makes a thin crust.
+
+[29:15] So you're gonna want to go somewhere in between those. Now, you might want to go all the way to brioche because I don't know if you know this, but hamburgers on brioche buns, what do they taste, guys? Guys. Say that again. Brioche.
+
+[29:30] Hamburger on a brioche bun. Tastes what? Not good. Tastes great. You don't like brioche bun, S?
+
+[29:36] Yes, I do. So why'd you say not great? I was thinking of something else, but no. Yeah, you're right. I can't.
+
+[29:42] I can't even we're so boring that we can't even keep the attention of the people on the show for five minutes while I'm asking a question. No, I was responding, I was responding to a listener about me being boring. So that was like a full circle event. Okay. Sweet.
+
+[30:00] I like a full circle event. Yeah. It's the circle of death. Why do they call it the circle of life? It really never ends with life.
+
+[30:07] It ends with you being dead. Circle starts with you being dead and ends with you being dead. Anyway. So uh most hamburger buns uh are not as rich as a brioche. So I'll just tell you what my hamburger bun recipe is that is not very crusty.
+
+[30:24] It's relatively thin. It's also relatively squishy. And close your ears, Nastasia, because I do use whole wheat uh flour. Um, but anyway, so uh but it's very light whole wheat because I I sift it. And anyway, and in fact, I think I have a recipe.
+
+[30:39] I have a recipe here. I have a recipe here that doesn't use whole wheat flour. All right. So I'll give you both the one that doesn't use one and the one that I actually use with whole wheat. So 239 grams of flour, 60 grams of butter, 56 grams of eggs, which is one large whole in the US, 125 grams of milk, 3.5 grams of SAF red yeast, SAF red, except no substitutes, uh, five grams of salt, and 11 grams of white sugar.
+
+[31:08] Mix the flour and yeast in a bowl with a paddle, melt the butter, whisk together salt, sugar, milk, egg, butter, add to flour, beat till it comes away from the bowl and is cohesive, turn and mess with every 30 minutes for two hours, let it rise by half, refrigerate for a couple of hours, punch down, form it, wait 10 minutes, and then form it again and bake it at uh let it double up and bake at 375 with the wash and seeds of your choice. But uh the one that I actually use for my burger buns are 197 grams of uh whole wheat flour. So I use uh typically redeemer wheat put through a 60 mesh uh uh sieve, 51 butter, 56 eggs, which is again is one, 98 of milk, uh three of SAF red yeast, 4.25 of salt, and 9.35 of sugar, and six grams of vital wheat gluten. Uh and then uh, you know, that makes four buns. And then uh that's it.
+
+[32:05] That's how it works. Right? Is that good? That is that an answer. Try that.
+
+[32:08] See if you like it. If you don't, get back to me. But just think about it as the brioche continuum. One day you'll find it the brioche connection, the lovers, the dreamers, and me. Are you familiar?
+
+[32:19] Uh do you like the uh that the rainbow connection? Are you Muppets fans, by the way? Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Dashable, an app created to help you find deals, save money, and earn rewards at local businesses in New York City. Dashable will help you find the deals worth dashing for in a variety of categories, from food and drink to art, health, and pets.
+
+[32:45] Support local businesses and save money when you download Dashable today. That's D A S H I B L E. Sydney Solof wrote in via Instagram, greetings. Need help on our non alcoholic beverage or another non-alcohol non alcoholic beverage project that includes preparing different fruits, herbs, citrus, and sugar, wanting to understand which direction to go for best shelf life preservation, eight months or longer till opened, then kept refrigerated. We use common acid preservatives and understanding my pH balance, how much is needed to add into a mixture.
+
+[33:15] Okay, listen, all that stuff is like very well regulated. Um, and you know, it's best. Um I would rather not give you the advice for it, like uh, but those numbers for shelf stable, you're gonna want to pasteurize the stuff. And so then the question is is that for a particular pH, you're gonna need to get up to a certain uh temperature of pasteurizing and just make sure that your um, for instance, when you're using citrus, I recommend using citrus that uh has been cooked, like cordial style citrus, so that the temperature is not gonna be a problem. So you're gonna need to pasteurize it to kill yeast, otherwise you're gonna have to preserve the ever-loving crap out of it.
+
+[33:55] The other thing is if you have the money and you want to go fresh, then uh UV pasteurization is also uh interesting, and it has uh combinations of UV pasteurizing with lower temperature of flash pasteurization can get pretty good results that uh last uh a long time. Is that a decent answer, guys or not? Yes, yeah, okay. Chad wrote in, uh I'm currently listening to all of your old episodes. I'm on 110, so that's what out of eight million, though, right?
+
+[34:21] We've had eight million episodes? 400 and something, right now. Cheers. 430. And and listening to your newer ones each week as well.
+
+[34:29] I would actually like to ask about the pizza oven you simulated in your home oven. Uh, what are these heated pizza stones? Did you rig something up? Yes. Uh, could you share the info on how you set up your oven?
+
+[34:39] I've been working on pizza for years, but haven't able to get higher than 550 to 600 in my oven. I want to build a wood fired oven outside, but haven't ever followed through. Any pointers would be appreciated. Next time I'll ask about something interesting like Penko. I promise Chad Linden from Georgetown, Kentucky.
+
+[34:54] So uh, I mean, like, look, what I did was the pizza was good, but it was a complete nightmare. First of all, I ripped out the thermostat in my oven and just put a solenoid control valve into it with a PID and monitor it, and so the oven was able, the oven internal temperature was able to get up to ridiculous numbers, like completely unsafe numbers. Like you shouldn't do it and then um I bought refractory cement and I bought uh you can buy on McMaster car bendable uh like uh heating elements so they look just they look similar to the heating element you'd have in a deep fryer or in the top of your oven but you bend it yourself and I bent those and then cast them into uh refractory and then put them in you know put you know baking stones on top of that and then drilled holes again not a good idea in the side of my oven and put the the the the super high temperature things out of it and those had their own temperature control and their own uh thermocouples and then I also put uh a heater in the in the top so that you could independently control well semi-independently because the the the oven was gas fired from the bottom so a lot of heat came from the bottom but I could crank that sucker and I easily got over 900 degrees but uh I can't tell you what a problem that brought to my domestic living situation and not only that but uh I I I I failed to put into it a uh a nor like a normal person button so whenever you're effing with your oven just realize that you're doing something unsafe so I'm leave that there leave it where it is uh and I'm gonna I'm learning a lot more about oven modification now actually while I'm writing the book so I'll probably have a lot better ways to do things safely in let's say six months but um what you want to do is you want to make it so that anyone who comes into your house can use your oven? Because I can't, you will get so sick of people being like, I can't turn on your oven. Why can't your oven be normal?
+
+[36:57] What's wrong with your oven? You know what I mean? Like, uh, uh irritating. So what you want, like ideally, is a switch. And I actually uh in I I did modify my current oven.
+
+[37:10] I unmodified it because we had a problem. There was a gas gas leak in my building. Some idiot literally shoved uh a drill bit or something through our main gas line, and all of the gas in our building was shut down for months. But as a result of that, they came up and inspected actually all of our equipment. And so I had to kind of de-hot rod my oven.
+
+[37:30] But the way I did it with the oven that I hot rotted here was I had the regular thermostat and the regular everything, and then I just had a knob on it. You know how like people, when they have cars, they'll have a knob that like bypasses their muffler and their catalytic converter so they can pretend to be hot rotters on the road? Uh yeah. So I basically did that where it's like once I flip this knob, the oven was a normal person oven. And then when I did it the other way, it was in crazy mode.
+
+[37:56] Um so I would I would recommend doing something like that so that people can use your oven and also make sure that they're that the electronics that you use to control this, uh, your oven aren't anywhere near the heat source because there's nothing more irritating than in the middle of a bunch of pizza cooking, like right when the people come over and you're about to put the pizzas in, your uh PID controller goes over temp, over temp, over temp, and shuts down. Real embarrassing, makes it feel real stupid because the other person who came beforehand had just insulted you for having an oven that no one can use and now you can't use it either, and the house is filling with smoke. It's a lot of it's a lot of losing to deal with all at once. Um did you have to insulate like around that to keep things safe, or is the oven like that well? The floor got real hot.
+
+[38:44] I mean, like the oven's not gonna freaking, like, nothing's gonna happen to the oven. Think about it. Like they go on self-clean, they go high. The issue is. I meant the cabinetry around it, et cetera.
+
+[38:55] You can't have cabinetry around it. Uh okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:01] Um look, I'm not saying it was a good idea. Well, you know? Come on. Yes. You know?
+
+[39:09] Um, and you know, and event eventually, you know, uh uh, especially once you've already done it, right? And you've had it for years, then the next time you're like, is it is it worth it, or is it okay that I was able to do it? And then you say to yourself, it's okay that I was able to do it, and you're fine living without it. Yeah. Right.
+
+[39:30] Right? Right. Uh from Steinberg via Instagram. I've had it with shoe recipes. Uh, shoe with a like cabbage, like, you know, shoe pastry, not shoe like the shoe on your no one has recipes for the shoes on your feet.
+
+[39:43] I mean, someone does, but I don't. I'm exhausted from having to guess when the pinade is done on the stove, then having to guess again how much egg the dough will take. I want to eliminate this guesswork. Besides taking the weight of the ingredients before and after on the stovetop and the temperature of the pinnot at the moment of removing it from the stovetop. Is there anything else I can measure and try to lock down?
+
+[40:02] In any case, please keep up the excellent work. Uh so listen, I used to make this stuff rather regular regularly, but that was like 10 years ago. I haven't made it in a long time. I mean, uh, so I I mean, other than I would start, if you want to do it yourself, just as you say, I would lock down the weights before and after. It's helpful for me when I do um recipe testing because I have a scale that'll do 30 kilograms by the tenth gram.
+
+[40:29] So I weigh things in the pots, even in big roasting pans, and it's it's not a problem. But uh John, do you have any recommendations for this? You're uh you're an old school francophile. Yeah, not really. I've only used to make it once, and that was at the very first restaurant I started working at back in 2008.
+
+[40:43] So yeah. Don't listen, anyone out there who has a in the chat or whatever, who's hearing this, write us in some suggestions and we'll send it to we'll send it to Steinberg uh to you know help them out, right? Uh Ben McCasey wrote in via Twitter. Um I don't know if my previous question was rejected, or if you just can't stop talking about silent film stars long enough to answer the questions. Ouch.
+
+[41:07] Ooh, sorry. But uh could you provide a primer on how to use MSG? Is it one-to-one to salt? No. Uh how much to start with uh stir-fry, roast, stew, uh chili.
+
+[41:21] And you know what? I didn't forgot to look it up. There are standard things, but it does not require very much MSG, and it's definitely not one-to-one. Uh I don't definitely don't use it one-to-one with salt. John, maybe you can uh Google around um and see kind of what standard uh max is.
+
+[41:39] But the thing about uh MSG is that um you you get MSG'd up real quick, and so it's it's a problem when you're cooking. The my my my issue, and again, I don't use MSG, I don't have an MSG, I don't have a bowl of MSG sitting next to my stove the way I have uh salt, right? I I probably should because I have nothing against MSG as anyone who listens to me knows. Um, but I tend to use other, you know, MSG laden things rather than the straight stuff. But I will say that if you add some MSG, right, and then you add a little more, it's very easy to add too much and then not notice you've added too much until you haven't had MSG for a couple of minutes and then go back and taste it again.
+
+[42:28] And I would say it's easier to do that with MSG than it is with uh salt. The same thing can happen with salt. You can you can oversalt something by tasting salting, tasting, salting, tasting, salting because your palate gets a little bit blunted to the salt as you're doing that, and then you oversalt, right? But that definitely happens with MSG. And so I would add a little bit and wait uh and then uh add a add a little bit more.
+
+[42:53] Um is that a decent answer or no? Yeah, and I'll just chime in with I know Andrew Zimmern posted about this a couple months ago, and I think he this isn't necessarily like answering your question, but he keeps like a salt well around with uh three to one salt to MSG like mix, and he sometimes uses that in his cooking. So that makes a lot more sense because you're uh again, you're not likely to because uh by the time you're probably wicked over MSGing it, you're also wicked over salting it. So if there's already some salt in it and then you're finishing out with that, that's that sounds like a smart idea. I like that idea.
+
+[43:29] That is a I don't know that whether that's the ratio I choose, but that sounds like a good idea. And since uh, you know, whatever, so it's probably a good starting point. Uh Fru Schmidt wrote in via email. Hello, uh Dave Hammer, John, Matt, the boondoggler, the punching bag. We haven't had the punching bag on in a while.
+
+[43:47] Uh and whoever else happens to be. What? Yeah, we should have him on. Yeah. Uh and whoever else happens to be around, been listening for something like six to seven years.
+
+[43:56] Jeez, Luis. Uh love the show. Hope you keep it going until you're fabulously rich. Yeah, good luck, right, Sus? Yeah.
+
+[44:02] Yeah. Mardi Gras coming up on February 16th. And while it'll be sad and lonely this year, I can still make uh and deliver uh gumbo and king cake. I like king cake and want to make my own with cream cheese and raspberry filling. I made it from a dry mix last year.
+
+[44:17] I think I could pretty easily go from scratch this year. Any tips? Any ideas on books or websites? I should check for recipes, huh? Well, your worst case if you pick the highest rated recipes on all recipes, read the comments, make it, take notes and tweak from there.
+
+[44:30] I'll do you one better. This question probably came in before I went through this. I think it was last week or the week before. But what I would do is I would look at the at the things like all recipes, look at a couple of sites, right? Choose the ones that are relatively highly rated, and then compare the recipes before you even make one.
+
+[44:51] I can't tell you guys when you compare a whole bunch of recipes and look at how they differ, right? If you have any baking experience at all or any cooking experience at all, a simple side-by-side comparison in conjunction with reading the comments about what people said about them, right, can help you get much closer to a final result in one or two iterations than almost anything, uh anything else. But I don't have a specific uh king cake uh um I made it once a couple of years ago, but I didn't write down the recipe because I wasn't doing recipe development at the time. I should have written down it was quite good, I have to say, it was delicious. Uh but I remember don't bake the baby into the king cake because, well, at least the babies I bought were plastic, right?
+
+[45:37] Uh you know, so like we you know, I I did the thing where I baked it, turned it upside down, and shoved the baby in. Now, if you could get a glass baby, that would be amazing. Uh, but I I couldn't. Some people don't use babies though, they use other stuff, right? Like little what else do people use?
+
+[45:54] I don't know. I'm only familiar with the baby. Oh, bean, I've heard bean. Yeah. What'd you say, John?
+
+[46:00] I'm only familiar with the baby. Yeah. You know what? Also, like everyone wants to have one. No one actually follows any of the rules.
+
+[46:09] So, like, if I I I made one one year I made like two or three, and I think I did one where I stuck a bunch of babies in it so that all the babies eating it could have a bunch of babies in every one. You know what I mean? That's a good one. Because everyone's more than one cake. Well, that's cheating.
+
+[46:24] Of course it's cheating. Yeah. Uh Mcrit wrote in via Instagram, Dave and Co. Two things. One, newer can openers that cut the lid from the side to leave no sharp uh edges, cannot be used to squeeze tuna.
+
+[46:39] I don't I do not have such a can opener. Do you do any of you guys have one of those can openers that like that like top hats the can? No. No, but I've seen it. Yeah, I definitely lived in a house where they had that, and it was it was fine, but I might not have been eating tuna at the time, so I didn't run up against this particular problem.
+
+[46:57] Well, it's an interesting use of phrase. You lived in a house that had one. What were you? Kato Kalen? You didn't have control over the can opener?
+
+[47:04] Where were you living that you had no control over the can? Uh it was only when I moved very recently. When I moved the last time in Brooklyn, I owned so little kitchen stuff because I've always lived with roommates. It was depressing to realize how much stuff we had to buy. So the reason M.
+
+[47:26] Chris bringing this up is that all three of all four of us, I guess, agreed that the tunican squisher was not something that needed to exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right.
+
+[47:37] So that's one. And uh two, what was the frying oil additive you mentioned? Uh I heard mere oil as in it's merely oil or mere oil, like mirror cat oil, but I can't find anything under those names. Much thanks. It's Mir Oil M-I-R-O-I-L.
+
+[47:54] Now, that company that makes that, they make two different products. They make a liquid that you add during frying, and the liquid is like rosemary extract, and I think one other extract that has antioxidants in it, along with citric acid and ascorbic acid. So uh what that's meant to do is stop the oxidation on a couple of fronts, and then at the end, the powder that you add is uh a powder that contains perlite and uh also some acids, so it basically adsorbs a lot of the bull crap, and then and then when you filter it, like the nasties stick to it. So that's how that's how it works. But the problem with it is is that you need to each packet ca uh is for like you know 50 gallons uh 50 pounds of oil, and then you know, you have to buy a bunch of packets.
+
+[48:41] So I'm trying to find some solution that is more home friendly, maybe a DIY hack because they don't sell, you know, I have three or four liters of oil that I want to use and and fix, you know, and I don't think anyone wants to spend, you know, $75 buying a powder to save $20 worth of oil, right? So I uh I'm uh I'm I'm working on it. Uh from Strange Birdie via Instagram. Uh I found myself impatiently waiting on bananas to ripen to blend into rum to clarify. Well, welcome to the club.
+
+[49:13] I wonder if more sugar actually develops uh slash starch converts with this trick. I'm gonna try it, but figured out if I figured I'd see if you've done it before. Uh ways to uh quickly ripen bananas. Now, John, do you did you read which which they were? I didn't get a chance to click the link and follow.
+
+[49:28] What were their ways? I've tried many ways to quickly uh ripen bananas, but I've never had any that actually uh work. Did you did you see what it was? What the what the I did not, but I you want to quickly go to Eric Strode's question and I'll read this over and then circle back to it. To read uh Eric Strode, sure, I'll do that.
+
+[49:46] Yeah. Uh hey David Nastasi from Eric Strode. Hey David Nastasi, I found an interesting Instagram post this weekend from a prominent San Francisco food journalist. Uh it's funny. Who is it?
+
+[49:57] If you said prominent San Francisco food journalists, just name them, right? I mean, like, why so secret? Uh he had a batch of oysters that had crabs inside of them. Instead of tossing them, as most of his followers encouraged them, he cooked them up and then did some research and found an old old New York Times article from 1907 on oyster crabs as a rare delicacy. I thought this would be a fun topic to bring up on the podcast.
+
+[50:18] I was curious if you've ever heard of these crabs. And then there's an Instagram post to it. Big fan of the show, burned through the backlog a couple years ago and look forward to each new episode. Best Eric. I have not heard of oyster crabs, but uh, I mean, it sounds like a horrible venereal disease.
+
+[50:31] Am I right, Sus? Wait, why me? Because I'm not saying that you have it. I'm saying that I'm saying that you're the person who like associates words with diseases. I'm not implying that Nastasia is a an experienced haver of venereal diseases, just that she doesn't like words that remind her of them.
+
+[50:56] That's all. Is that not fair? Yeah. Huh. Alright.
+
+[51:01] I mean, anyway, I I don't know about that, Eric, but I'm gonna I'm gonna look into it. I like any sort of rare uh I like any sort of rare crustacean. Like like I I've heard they're endangered now, so I'll probably never eat one, but the coconut crab, which is the world's largest land crab, looks like a giant, incredibly scary hermit crab. If you if you've never seen a coconut crab, Google Coconut Crab, but don't go to any idiot website where they don't provide scale. People, when you're taking pictures of a giant crab, make sure to include something for scale, right?
+
+[51:35] I mean, doesn't that stand a reason? Yeah, those things are huge. They're huge and scary. You never eaten one, right, John? No, I would love to, though.
+
+[51:42] I would yeah if they're not endangered, I would love to eat one of those things. Love it. Yeah. Um, so anyway, I'll I'll I'll uh I'll check it out. I'll check it out there, Eric, and we'll we'll uh we'll talk about it.
+
+[51:54] Actually, don't we have an oyster expert, uh, John at the museum? Weren't we dealing with someone uh for oysters when we were doing the uh oyster shucking stuff for the African slash American exhibit? Yeah, we're working with Ben Harney a lot of uh real mother suckers. And he's a legitimate New York, and he's bringing he's bringing the old New York uh oyster shucker experience back, right? Yes, with the oyster cart and everything.
+
+[52:16] You want to reach out to him and see if he knows any knows anything of the oyster crab? Yes, I can do that. Alright, alright. So uh stay stay tuned. Uh all right, Lukash wrote in.
+
+[52:27] I haven't heard from Lucas. Well, wait, no, no, no, hold up. Strange birdie. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[52:32] The banana's ripening. So what's the banana technique? Um basically it's baking them at 300 degrees uh for 30 to 40 minutes, and they get black and apparently look ripe. But it just seems I don't know. Like uh it doesn't seem like a lot of things.
+
+[52:47] You have access to a thing you can test this for me and see whether they actually get sweet, John? Uh I can try and go get some bananas later. I have to go to UPS. So yeah, yeah, I can yeah, can do. All right, we'll give it a shot.
+
+[52:57] I mean, the the issue is they can't just get soft and look black. You have to get rid of the starch or they won't clarify properly. For instance, some bananas, even when they are ripe, not Cavendish, but some banana varieties, even though they are in fact sweet and soft, still have enough starch to mess up with a clarification. So this is the one Nastasi wanted to make sure that we got to. This is uh from Lukash.
+
+[53:17] Haven't heard from Lukash in a while. Hope everything's all right. Hey Nastasia, I'm sorry to write you on this address. I'm not sure you're using it for work purposes. I listened to you and Dave's show on delay, and you are my main connection to NYC because he had to go back to uh Poland.
+
+[53:31] Recently I listened to the episodes about sunsets and length of day, and I think you are right. Now, by the way, Lukash is a uh he does finance stuff now, but he's a physicist. He did like low temperature physics uh for a while. So when the I Einstein boson condensate, whatever the hell it was, whenever that happened, he was like huge on that. Uh like he was like telling me about it, and I understood, you know, maybe the quarter, what he's saying.
+
+[53:54] Anyway, so he's he's not a scientifically challenged person. He's a scientist, right, Stas, that's what you wanted me to get across. Um no, I just wanted you to read the question. All right. Uh the sun r in New York City rises uh between uh 5 uh 24 on June in the morning on June 21st to 623 on September 1st.
+
+[54:17] Most people experience many more sunsets than sunrises. Therefore, if you're in part of time where you can experience sunset but sleep through sunrise, you will get more sun when you are awake. Dave is right in a purely astronomical sense, but it does not matter when you select a place to live. I'm not a scientist anymore. So yeah, but what my point was is that Nastasia believes there's an appreciable daylight difference between 10th Avenue and First Avenue.
+
+[54:42] Right. Right. There's just not. I mean, Lukas, I love that you're sticking up for uh uh uh Nastasia on this, but I mean, like, I don't know what kind of bet I could make. I don't I don't know.
+
+[54:58] And like I I'll do the math at some point on like literally how many minutes, how many seconds it takes for the Earth to spin the width of Manhattan. He's not arguing with your logic though. He's saying from a purely astronomical sense, you're right. No, but I'm saying from an experiential point, I'm also right, because Nastasia is only a she's talking about a 15-minute walk, right? So I would agree if if you were talking about like I'm on one side of the time zone versus on the other side of the uh of the time zone, or like blah, blah, blah, whatever.
+
+[55:33] What I'm saying is is that from the point of actually being able to tell, what is it gonna be? One second difference, like one second, less? You know what I mean? Like, we're talking about three miles. I don't know what the I don't know what the uh diameter of the earth is as a section through the axis of rotation at our latitude, right?
+
+[55:57] But like you take that and then you you you multiply by uh pi. That's the number of miles that circle is around, right? That's 24 hours. Do the division, it can't be more than a second or two. Yeah, right.
+
+[56:12] I mean, you're probably right. Yeah. Um. Oh, and get this, people. This is the last question.
+
+[56:19] If I get through this question in the next three minutes, we're caught up. Well, is that a public question, though? That was more just to include for your own edification. Oh, you never thought I'd get to it? I yeah, not really.
+
+[56:30] Let's not say what do you think? It's the it's the Alex Pressa email. I won't read it. I won't read it. We actually made it early.
+
+[56:35] We're good. Oh that's fine. Oh, yeah. So what do we want to also chat chat chimes in the pecans? People pecans and kincakes, and someone else recommends them very highly.
+
+[56:46] Instead of babies? Or on top? I like them on top. No, instead. Why?
+
+[56:53] So people don't crack their teeth on the baby? I can only assume so. It does seem like a prudent thing to do. Let me just say that, and we can have this discussion. I know Nastasia doesn't care much.
+
+[57:08] I think pecans, and I'm from the north, so I'm gonna say pecans. I think pecans are freaking delicious. I think they are such a good nut. I I don't like I think if you don't like, I think it might be, I mean, hickory nuts are like, I think God's nut, but you can't buy them, right? But like pecans, which are closely related to hickories, I can't think of a nut that I like the taste of better than a pecan.
+
+[57:30] I mean, pistachios are delicious. I know Nastasi likes pistachio. Pistachios are delicious, but I don't count them because they're such a pain. I never cook with them, you know? But uh what do you what do you guys think about the pecan?
+
+[57:40] I only eat pistachios. Only? That's the only nut you like? Yeah, I eat them every day here. Really?
+
+[57:48] Are they from California or are they imported? No, they're from California. Do you it are are the one is that wonderful brand from California? I don't know. I don't know.
+
+[57:56] But that's not the brand you eat, you just buy them from a farmer's market or whatnot? Yeah. When did when are they when it when is the season? Are they still fresh? Are they good?
+
+[58:04] I mean I'm sure they're good. Otherwise you wouldn't need them. Yeah. You like them salted though, right? Um, yeah.
+
+[58:10] Yeah. Yeah, of course. I don't understand why people eat unsalted nuts. Uh okay. I will say this on the way out then since I have a 30 seconds.
+
+[58:17] I made Scrapple last night. And the Scrapple, I put it on the uh on the Instagram. Scrapple, I had a bunch of people talk to me about Goeta. Uh maybe I'll make goeta again, but Scrapple, gotta bring Scrapple back. Scrapple is is it's super delicious.
+
+[58:31] I made it in the Pullman pan that I stole from the French Culinary Institute as they were closing it. It's steal it, they let me have it. And Nastasi would like you all to know that we are doing an unhappy hour when? Friday uh 7 p.m. Eastern time.
+
+[58:47] And and 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. Oh, I thought it was 7 p.m.
+
+[58:53] Eastern time. That's what it ends up. 7 p.m. Eastern time to 8 p.m. Eastern time.
+
+[58:59] Wait, what is it, John? We have 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. But we can we can change it for the same thing. But then it's gonna be too early in in uh in California, right?
+
+[59:07] Well, I'm it's not like I can drink at 4 p.m. So I'll be watching you drink, Dave. What? Why can't you drink at 4 p.m. if it's for work?
+
+[59:16] Didn't stop you when we were slamming slamming back uh Scotch at 6 a.m. when we had the radio show. That was real. That was we were getting paid for that, if you remember. Yeah, but all I was saying is is it like what's the difference between the city?
+
+[59:29] Because this is a driving, this is a driving city, and I'm not gonna drink at four. You're gonna drive that day? You drive. But you weren't gonna drive if the it it it it if the thing was at 5 p.m., you weren't gonna drive. But because it's at four, you are gonna drive.
+
+[59:42] It's date. Okay, I'm definitely not drinking at four, but I will pretend to. I don't know crap on it. I don't even want to do it anymore. What's the point of this?
+
+[59:51] I like seriously. Like, why can't you do it at eight? I get the whole thing. Can you do it at eight? Can you do it at eight?
+
+[59:57] That would be perfect. Eight to nine? I mean, like, you know, my kids need to get to bed at a certain point. They eat, like, they eat at a certain time. Like, it's like Well, I just want to make one point that we like a lot of the people that the majority of people that read our newsletter are from California.
+
+[1:00:10] So it would be nice. Yeah, my my point is is that like I have people like I need to. I know, but you know, one day out of one day out of the whole pandemic, you can't I need to get food. It's not one day. Every time you ever have something for me to do, it's one day of the pandemic.
+
+[1:00:24] I have to get food into my family's face. Okay, the place clean, and like everything so that people can go to bed at the right time, right? And so then, and what you're saying though is that because where it's at four instead of five, you can't have a glass of wine. I that doesn't seem to me to be, they're not like parallel statements. I mean, whatever, do what you want.
+
+[1:00:46] But like I was gonna have to do that. I have to have a walk with my family before dinner, so I don't want to be like completely shit-faced. Uh a glass of wine's gonna make you completely off your nut? That's fine, I'll drink. I will drink.
+
+[1:01:01] No, no, I'm not gonna force you to do it. I just saying maybe we should just not do it. If we can't, if we can't do a time when we can all get away. I I didn't think that a 5 p.m. 8 p.m.
+
+[1:01:11] was so bad, but now I realize that it is. Five to eight. I mean, five p.m. my time, eight p.m. your time.
+
+[1:01:18] I didn't know that it was a strict like eight p.m. dinner for you. That's all. Well, it's not it's not it's not just that. It's that remember, I make the dinner.
+
+[1:01:25] So, like, hey, guess what? Boondogger calling me actually in the middle of the show. Uh, like, I I actually make the dinner, so it's not like I can hang up the phone and then all of a sudden dinner's on the table. You know what I mean? Nastasia, could you drink maybe some proteo or drink or make a drink out of drink what you want, the subjective guide to making objectively delicious cocktails by John LeBerry.
+
+[1:01:46] Absolutely. That's a great idea. All right. Whatever. Now you see how the sausage is made.
+
+[1:01:54] Cooking issues. Oh my god. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:02:07] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:02:29] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Organic Growers School, offering a holistic crop management series for farmers starting on March 23rd. Learn more at organic growerschool.org. How are you doing, John? Doing well, thank you. Yeah.
+
+[1:07] Yep. Uh we have a uh uh Matt, where where are you now? Right on. It'll always be real. Right.
+
+[1:14] What the hell were you doing in Robert's then? Just like I had like a whole slate of errands to do that one day, but yeah. Yeah. Then when you went to Robert's, did you have to blow all kinds of cobwebs off of the uh Yeah, basically. I had to kick out the squatter and dust away the cobwebs and yeah.
+
+[1:30] Was the squatter a human or some sort of like evolved roach that lives off of all of the weird like industrial stuff that's just underground in in Brooklyn? No, yeah, it was a family family of uh Danish COVID minks. It was really gnarly in there. Oh, sweet, sweet. And uh for her, I think final California cooking issues appearance of this pandemic, we have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez uh in her undisclosed Heidi Hole list location, but joined with a Jackie Molecules and Aaron Polcat Polski.
+
+[2:03] Uh they're trying to they thought they were gonna have a nice pleasant California outdoor uh you know socially distanced cooking issues and rub it in our East Coast faces what with all our snow and our inability to go outside, and uh instead uh they're hanging out with a dude who's ripping a chainsaw, uh ripping a stump out of the ground with a chainsaw, am I correct? I mean, not currently, but that's been going on for the past few minutes, sort of, yeah. What's up, Dave? Yeah, doing alright. How are you doing, Senor Molecules?
+
+[2:32] Pretty good. It's his birthday. Oh, happy birthday. Actually, it wasn't your birthday. My phone told me that it was your birthday yesterday, and I forgot to text you and say happy birthday.
+
+[2:41] Was it yesterday or today? It was actually Sunday, but we can stretch it all the way to Tuesday. I feel fine with that. Wait, so your birthday was Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. I love Sunday.
+
+[2:51] I love the Sunday scream. I wish that like I'd I did you ever go to those monster truck rallies when you were a kid? I did. I grew up in Long Island, so yeah, monster truck, demolition derbies. So I didn't go to a monster truck rally until I was already like a late, a late teenager, like, you know, like uh 19 or something like this.
+
+[3:11] And I accidentally went to the pole, not to the not to the one where they drive trucks over other things, and I was like, the hell is this? I wanted to see like a truck drive over a bunch of cars. That's why you show up. The poll is not as interesting. No, not at all.
+
+[3:31] I mean, no offense to tractor pull. Although, you ever been to an actual like tractor pull, like where like farm tractors are pulling things? No. That's fun. That's fun.
+
+[3:42] Because people get like old tractors and they hook them up to these giant weights, and then what happens is they they hit the they hit the the you know the throttle and like the the front of the whole front of the tractor basically just lifts itself off of the ground. Like the whole thing just torques itself up and like these tractors are pulling these like super dupe wheelies. It's pretty sweet. Sounds sick. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:06] I mean, I like uh you know farm tractors are cool. Who doesn't like a farm tractor? You have to have something broken inside of you if you don't like a farm tractor, like an old school farm tractor? Like gears? Like what mean a gears broken inside of you there?
+
+[4:20] Is that what you're saying? No, but like you know, there's something so there's something kind of cool about it. You know what I'm saying? You don't think so? Am I the only one who thinks that like old school, like all painted nice, like like 40s, 50s farm tractors, like 30s, 40s, 50s farm tractors?
+
+[4:33] There's not something kind of nifty about them, those messed up giant wheels? You know, I had a uh a neighbor who well, I had this old couple who who were our neighbors uh growing up, and they had like the a farm basically across the street from us, and they were like the whole side of the street. Uh their son was like 40 and living with them. Uh and he was really into restoring like tractors and old washing machines. Washing machines?
+
+[5:03] Who the hell wants one of those? No, like like really old ones, you know, like like the the whirlpools from like the 30s that are like hand cranked and and really pretty and stuff, and he would like repaint them and stuff. Anyway, he got busted by the feds for like uh blowing up mailboxes across state lines. Wait, wait, wait. Just so you know, people, don't go across state lines to blow up a mailbox.
+
+[5:25] Let me ask you this. How close were you to the state line? In other words, was he just blowing up a neighbor's house, but it happened to be on a state line? Like were you like he was going to antique washing machine conventions in like Massachusetts. I grew up in Jersey and was blowing up mailboxes at these conventions, which is how they tracked him.
+
+[5:43] They noticed the pattern. So why did he hate? So he went to, let's say, Brimfield, right? Which is like in Massachusetts where all the antique people used to go, like back in the day, back before eBay, right? And he would find a dealer there that he hated so much that he just had to blow up their mailbox.
+
+[6:03] I think it was unrelated to the washing machines, other than proximity to the convention. Oh, okay, okay. So like the guy needed to go for the his business of washing machines. It was like if you went to Tails and then went to a random house while you were at Tails and blew up their mailbox. Because he just can't go like X number of days without blowing up a mailbox.
+
+[6:23] I mean, let's not king shame. Have you uh have you ever had your mailbox blown up, Aaron? No, so he didn't uh what's it called? Poop where he eats or whatever, however you're supposed to say that, he didn't blow up your mailbox. He actually did uh I think he spray painted some swastikas on the playgrounds in our town.
+
+[6:44] Oh, so in general, an all-around good guy. So this maybe explains why you don't have warm and fuzzy feelings about old tractors. The mailbox blowing up swastika painting, 40 year old. I mean, I feel like I can actually separate the art from the artists here at the washing machines are pretty nice. All right.
+
+[7:03] I did have my mailbox blown up when I was a kid. Like uh old school, like suburban pipe bomb style. Back when, you know, back, you know, pre 9 11 when someone set off a pipe bomb and you're just like, lousy kids! You know what I mean? Does no one remember that era?
+
+[7:21] I remember pipe pipe bombs from Duke Newcomb. Remember that, James? No, no, that no, that's that's that's that's the thing. Like we we we miss each other's eras of these kinds of references. But all I can tell you is do you guys know where the high line is in uh New York City?
+
+[7:36] Yeah. Yeah. So the High Line is an old railroad, industrial railroad, uh, elevated railroad that that goes down the west side of Manhattan, which we'll get to later. And uh back, you know, before they turned it into a fancy park, before Ed Norton and all those people, you know, uh, you know, got it turned into a uh a super fancy, you know, Soigney place. It was uh a place where if you needed to be completely hidden from outsiders to, I don't know, whatever, like live, pitch a tent, do heroin, like you hung out on the Highline.
+
+[8:08] It was not like a savory place, and it was the only place in Manhattan where when I was still doing art, I could go blow things up. And so I would go up on the high line, you'd get into it by the Javit Center. There's a there's a railroad, uh, well, it's all changed now, but there was a big railroad depot there, and there wasn't the big Hudson Yards stuff that there is now. And you would just walk, you would walk past the guards who were also high or asleep or drunk, and you just like take whatever you needed, walk up on the old railroad tracks, which was all grass and like, you know, with all sorts of cool, there's a whole history by the way, of plants that grow on railroad tracks because uh they're carried by the trains and seeds fall off, so like cool hemps and all sorts of stuff. Anyways, uh there's a Smithsonian article circa nineteen seventy nine or eighty on the subject, you can go look it up.
+
+[8:58] Anyway, uh so I would go up there and we would blow stuff up you know for art and nobody cared like literally nobody cared. Clearly the heroin addicts who were passed out like that I had to pass on the way they didn't care. Cops certainly didn't care what got blown up on the high line. So it was a different it was a different era all pre uh pre-9-11. You know what I mean?
+
+[9:19] Is this is this where that photo of you that's in Samba or that was in the book or is that where that came from? No uh that was before that was before that. That was that picture was taken in I think like ninety six or ninety seven and that was uh all you know around the same era that was on the roof of my studio building where again there were there were no rules. The only time I ever got in trouble so my old studio building was it's Columbia University owned it owns it still it started out life as a seal test dairy and there is a an underground stream so like Manhattanville which is right by 125th Street like is actually a valley so like you know when you're taking the subway through there it looks like the subway's going up high and it it's actually going straight or slightly downhill and the ground is dropping away from it. And so there's water pretty close to the to the surface down there.
+
+[10:13] And so they built this dairy there because there was an underground stream that they could use to cool things. And uh when Columbia took it over it became where they did a lot of their nuclear reactor research not for the radioactive stuff but for like steam piping and testing so they had a lot of cool stuff there. And the art department took over the top, you know, uh floor, uh top two floors when I when I was there as an art student, and they didn't give a rat's ass what we did up there as long as it didn't as long as it didn't spread. So occasionally, like one time, we threw a pig roast, so we cut, we cut a bunch of 55 gallon drums in half, two of them, burnt them out, welded like legs on them, stole a bunch of motors from the engineering department from the nuclear engineering department, and like built rotisserie spits, and like uh, you know, I stole a bunch of uh expanded metal, burnt all the galvanizing off of that, and we we were roasting these pigs with these like you know, expensive bowdine gear motors uh as improvised spits, and we were roasting them all day. A friend of mine who now actually works for Thanksgiving Farm where Cesare is, uh Mark McNamara, he's like uh, you know, he was one of those people who believes in putting the meat way, way far away from the from the flame, and he was like saying, and you know, all this stuff, I was like, listen, Mark, put the freaking pig in in jersey.
+
+[11:28] We just need this thing to freaking cook. It needs to cook anyway. So like we cooked this these pigs, and then I'd had maybe one too many, and I I got sick of going all the way downstairs to let people into this rooftop party, and so I just I just threw my ID on a string over the edge to let people like like like go in, but then someone threw it over the edge and didn't pull it back up. So that's the only time I got in trouble for stuff that I did on top of the roof uh at the studio building was when I left my ID hanging right by the door on a string. And so on that same roof is where I lit myself on fire uh for the St.
+
+[12:04] George and the Dragon piece. We just we did a bunch of stuff up there. Anyway, so you didn't cross state lines. Did not cross state lines, and uh I didn't damage any mailboxes or any anything. I I don't I don't like damaging other people's stuff.
+
+[12:19] It's not it's not I don't I don't you know I don't think it's pleasurable to damage somebody else's stuff because then they just have to go fix it. Why is that fun? Why is it fun to do something that causes someone else to have to do unnecessary work? You know? Fair blow your own stuff up.
+
+[12:33] Blow your own stuff up. Uh all right. So Strange Birdie wrote in last week and asked us whether this trick about uh throwing uh bananas into uh what how'd they do it, John? What was their thing? They was it.
+
+[12:50] Throwing bananas into a 300 degree oven. Right. Yeah, so i what happened what you said happened is pretty much what I thought would happen. Why don't you say what happened? I mean it just it just they got soft and looked cooked because you know they got all brown and dark on the outside, but they were still, you know, they were a little mushy texture wise, but they were still super starchy, and none of the starch had been converted to sugars.
+
+[13:13] So that's a loss. Yes. That's a loss. Alright. Uh and uh we have an update for the oyster crab person, which we'll get to uh later.
+
+[13:24] But uh then here's another one. Someone sent us in, and Nastasia, have you tested this this TikTok video yet? Or are you not gonna do it? It's either way, it's fine, it's okay. Yeah, I can test it.
+
+[13:34] All right. So you've seen the TikTok video? No. Alright, so I'll explain the TikTok video. Someone said, Dave and Co.
+
+[13:41] This video has been floating around TikTok. Uh and so what it is is it's a picture, I think of a British person, so already, you know, and they have a clove of birdie wheels. What do you mean? He hates British. I don't hate British people.
+
+[13:54] I love British people. So like, so you take the you take the garlic clove without its skin, and you rub your fingers on the outside of the garlic clove. Then you reach your hand in and you can pick the egg yolk up out of the out of the egg. So you crack the egg into a bowl, you can reach in, pick up the egg yolk, and the egg yolk's not gonna pop. That's the theory from the from the TikTok video.
+
+[14:17] Now John has I'm rubbing my hand on the garlic clove. Have you already cracked the egg yolk? No. Sizes. I would crack the egg into a bowl first.
+
+[14:29] Okay. If you want to follow exactly what the TikTok fellow does. Right. Now you're gonna now you're gonna want to rub your hand on the on the naked garlic clove. Okay, crack the someone crack the egg.
+
+[14:44] All right. Okay, pull some. I'll have you know John was able to do this by himself in very short order. So well, you know, we're we're a team. Okay, I'm rubbing my hands all over this garlic.
+
+[14:56] Three heads not better than one in this is confirm. All right. All right. Oh, I like this. I like this.
+
+[15:01] I like Aaron confirming that he's following the instructions. I appreciate this. I know Jack's following the instructions. I'm confirming that he is. All right.
+
+[15:08] Correct. I think my hand is properly garlic. All right, now you're supposed to use your uh your your your index and your uh and your pointer and then your thumb. Reach in and just pick that egg yolk up. And then put it in the cup.
+
+[15:25] No, he cheated. Nope, it's not working. No, it it works. No, you're supposed to be. Exactly, like a mama cat.
+
+[15:35] Thank you, man. You just killed your kid. Your kittens insides are coming up. All right on the photo? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[15:43] Send that to the send that to the internet, Nastasia. And John had the same thing, and I had the same thing. Now, so first of all, guys, let's say this worked. Right. I'm sorry, did this not work for either of you either?
+
+[15:57] That's correct. Okay, good. I felt really dumb for a second. So let's let's say, so the people, people who don't know what we're talking about, in this TikTok video, like it's supposed to be some sort of mirror, it's two and two and a half million likes or something like this. This is two and a half million people who don't have eggs to test out on their own, right?
+
+[16:14] Uh now, I feel a little bit bad that I wasted three eggs, but listen, as a way to separate uh egg yolks, it's very easy to separate egg yolks by hand if you crack them and then just scoop underneath and then let that let the egg uh you know sift out, right? Now, the um the problem with this also is is that if you rub your hands with garlic, my fingers still smell like garlic. And if you rub your hand with garlic and then try to separate an egg, you better you best hope that whatever recipe you're separating eggs for tastes good with garlic in it, right? Because the garlic is definitely going to transfer to the egg, like there's very few flavors that transfer quite as readily to things like eggs or apples uh than garlic and onion uh does. Okay.
+
+[17:01] So there's first of all, there's that. Second of all, just does not work. So I think and that and John said that the in the internet says you can wipe your hand on bread and also have that work. All right. Brown bread.
+
+[17:12] Oh, brown bread. So I say brown bread. That makes sense. Um, do you know that you can also uh I've heard it works if you wipe your hand on uh unicorn horn, like if you just wipe your finger on unicorn horn repeatedly, you can you can separate eggs that way without even cracking the shell if you get the really good unicorn. So they the this does not work.
+
+[17:33] Now, it's possible that you're modifying that the garlic. Garlic does make your hands sticky, so it's modifying whatever's there, and also like brown bread or any sort of bread might wipe off some sort of oils and make it easier for you to pick it up, maybe. But yolks have a skin on them, and once you pop it a skin, sucker's gonna pop. Now, the the way that the guy is handling it in the TikTok video, he is seriously manhandling that yolk. And what it looks like to me is that he has par frozen his egg yolks.
+
+[18:05] So if you really want to manipulate an egg yolk like this, all you have to do is lightly freeze your egg and let it thaw, and the egg yolk will be consider the skin around the egg yolk will be considerably thicker, and you can shoot your own TikTok videos of you wiping your butt with your hand and then picking up the egg yolk and having it look exactly like that gentleman's egg looked. You can do anything you want. You can wipe your hand on a lollipop, you can stick your finger up your nose, you can do whatever you want, and you're gonna be able to pick up the egg yolk. All you gotta do is do a if you if you freeze the egg too hard, the egg yolk will look solid and it won't look as though you have uh like a normal unmessed with egg. But if you just freeze it a little bit, you should be able to uh you know make mystery two and a half million like TikTok videos, uh, you know, wiping your hands on whatever you want.
+
+[18:51] And it's worth noting though, we don't see him crack the egg. Yeah, but no, but it's something like you can freeze it thaw it, and it will stay, even once it's thawed, the yolk will stay hard like that. Not hard, but like soft, so that you you could pick it up. So it really is a good magic. Like it's it's the equivalent of like uh this is actually not a good magic trick.
+
+[19:11] Have any of you guys ever done the uh the thread banana, the banana thread? No. No. You've never done the banana thread? No, John?
+
+[19:21] No. Is this a magic trick show now? It is okay. So this is a good food grade food food-based magic trick. The problem is is that it only works on people who are not very observant so you get uh thread uh needle and thread and you take a banana and a banana if you look at a banana it's not round it's faceted okay so you go in on the edge uh of the banana you you put the thread through it all the way through it so that it's basically going in between one of the facets of the peel and the banana itself take it all the way out of the banana then feed that needle back into the same hole it just came out with but go along the next facet and then come out the same hole that you came from and then pull the thread and it will cut the banana at that point inside of the peel and then you make like five slices going up the banana you hand it to some unobservant person they peel it and it opens up into a sliced banana this is a very old well-known trick the problem is the reason they have to be somewhat non-observant unless you use a a naturally dark skinned banana which you can get now when I was a kid you kidding is that on a Cavendish banana it leaves very uh telltale brown marks unless you like serve it right away there's oxidation on the needle hole areas now I've never tried it as an adult I don't know if I can wipe ascorbic acid or sodium metabisulfite into the holes to stop them from browning out but it makes very obvious little marks where the needle went in if you have a relatively unblemished uh banana but I can't believe none of you guys have ever seen the the sliced and peel banana trick.
+
+[20:58] Dave all I'm getting from this is that you should have a TikTok account and you might really slay on that platform. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. There you sound thrilled. We can't keep up with Instagram.
+
+[21:10] Yeah. Although people enjoyed the the the the bread alma smash burger I put on the Instagram. Yeah. Oh yeah. I watched that several times.
+
+[21:18] I showed that to people I knew. I was excited about that. Yeah. I've had some people very gratifying people. Some people have made it.
+
+[21:25] Some people have made it and they enjoyed it. That's true. The song was incredible because I I first watched it with no volume. So I was already impressed, not knowing that there was a song. And then I went to show it to Kate and turn the volume up, and I was like, what the hell?
+
+[21:39] Red omelet. Yeah, you gotta like, you know. Yeah. So the way that you do that, like the the way that you can in like 30 seconds, like make like a bonehead simple uh song using only Adobe Premiere because I didn't have any editing software, is you just watch the video and you sing along the lower part, and then you like round robin that one so that it sounds like there's eight of you singing it once, but you only have to sing it once, you know what I'm saying? So like you put in and then you shift it by a measure and then shift it by a measure and shift shift it by a measure, so it sounds like there's four of you, you know what I mean?
+
+[22:14] And then uh you just sing bread omelet once and then just uh take it down two semitones each time you want to do it, and then you know, at the you know, whenever at the very appropriate time, you think cheese, and that's it. You're good, you're done. You know, it's man, and now so we've had like magician issues today, we've had an episode of Song Exploder. We're going all over the place. Yeah, yeah, dude.
+
+[22:38] So uh, I mean, I know that you uh engineers and musicians would not appreciate this kind of boneheaded technique of like just slam damning a song together, but you know, for those of us that's a tongue, man. Yeah, those of us that don't have the skills or the or the time, it's the way to go. Uh the only problem with it is is like uh when you're editing real songs, like how much like time shifting. It's hard because I can only shift by a frame forward or back. Like, like how like what are they in songs?
+
+[23:04] Like, like, can you just infinitely shift when you're using real editing software? Well, yeah, you have to. Yeah. Nudge it a millisecond if you need to. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[23:13] A frame is not a good unit of uh of sound nudge. A good sound unit. Yeah, no, frame is not not a not a natural sound unit. So anyway, so the bread omelet is this. So the bread omelet was something that John brought to my attention, a viral video of a year and change ago, where which is based on Indian street food, where you what you do is you have to get an enclosed pan.
+
+[23:35] I tried it uh originally on my crepe maker, and the egg just flew off the edge of the crepe maker all over my uh all over my counter, which sucked. Because I thought like the egg would be like almost like it would set up fast enough that I could almost even just use my replet to make a round thing, but it just blew off my my anyway, it sucked. So anyway, so the bread omelet itself is you get a pan, it has to be non stick-ish, so cast iron, blue steel, you know, whatever, and you you put the the egg in, and then after the eggs start, you know, you right after you put it in, you put bread, flip, another piece of bread, flip so that it's like an open face sandwich, right? Then you gotta let it set. Here that's the trick.
+
+[24:16] You gotta let it set up. If you flip it when it's too wet, not only will it break, but then the flaps, which you're supposed to fold over. So then after you flip it, you don't fold, fold, and then you fold the bread together into a bread on into a uh a bread omelet uh sandwich, right? If you let it, if it's not set enough before you flip it, the flaps will glue the will glue themselves down, and you won't be able to flip them well because they'll stick to the edges of the bread. Just a little tip.
+
+[24:41] So that what I did was I made a smash burger, and then flip when you flip the smash burger, you flip the smash burger so it's close to you, pour the omelet over the top of the burger, and then proceed as before. So it's like it's like a burgoloid in the way that a patty melts a burgaloid, but a smash a bread omelet smash burger burgoloid with a slice of American cheese in, of course. I've done it with bacon, it's good with bacon. Somebody I think did it with onions. Somebody threw green onions into the omelet mix and it seemed to work.
+
+[25:10] Anyways. Jeffrey Given in the chat would like you to know for your future recordings that you can do that in Premiere. You just have to turn on show audio time units, and then you can scrub much more finely. Oh wow. That's a good tip.
+
+[25:23] Thank you. But I feel like we must be the only two people left on planet Earth who use Adobe Premiere to actually do any sort of video work, right? We'll see if we can see that. I don't know how many people are I don't know how many people are composing songs there. Yeah, that's true.
+
+[25:40] Uh although I've always used it, so like uh have you ever seen that video? Uh the sound is really bad in it because I need to get a better I have a beta uh a beta cam SP version of it, but the the one that I have is off of VHS. Uh but I did a video called What I'm Thinking About, which is me as an elf jumping into a wood chipper over and over and over and over and over again. Oh yeah. And uh the music in that was also uh I had someone who made the the musical parts and then it was all glued together in Premiere, and the sound of the wood chipper was uh a four and a half inch angle grinder that was slowed down considerably to make it sound more wood chippery, more more chippery.
+
+[26:19] Um, yeah. I wish I could learn a different way to edit sound than just premiere. It just takes time. You know what I mean? Like it just takes time.
+
+[26:27] Anyway. Uh, all right. So, see, so we took care of the bananas problems. Oh, I know, Aaron. Aaron, since this is the last show coming from California, I thought I would have you on the radio program to talk to you about your cocktail company called LiveWire.
+
+[26:45] I am so glad you asked. You have a pretty impressive lineup of bartenders making canned and bottled cocktails under your label. For listeners that don't know about it, can you tell us about the mission of your brand? I would love to. Um Yeah, basically, you know, in our industry, there's a very real uh wage spieling for a bartender who's kind of like at the top of at the top of their game, right?
+
+[27:14] Um where you you go and you manage a bar and you get paid some hourly and you work for tips, and there's really like no way to scale what you do in the same way that uh a musician or an actor or a writer um can scale what they do by like putting something out as a package good to the public. So basically, Liveire is a canned cocktail company, and we pay royalties out to our bartenders who make drinks, um make drinks with us so they can scale what they do and earn uh a living income off of it. So for those of you that don't that aren't in the industry, right? So there's another layer to this that Aaron's not telling you, uh not in a bad way, but it's that especially with the pandemic, but even without the pandemic, there's there's been a number of routes that bartenders so there's like the people who get into bartending, they usually get in pretty young, and then like a a chunk of them leave to go do something else. But those of us that want to stay in the industry for a long time and you know make a reasonable wage and grow in the in the business, they have a number of outlets, right?
+
+[28:25] So you could one of the old ones is you could become a bar owner, right? That was something that people could do. Not that that necessarily is gonna make you great income if you actually care about the products that you're making. In fact, the amount of money that you make is usually inversely proportional to how much you care about the products you're making, right? Uh another way to do it is to go work for a brand.
+
+[28:42] So a lot of people go work for a brand and then go go do consulting. Uh more recently, the past five years, there's been a number, ten years, there's been a number of big successes of bartenders making brands, right? And so that was seen for a long time as the way way to go. And I think recently, the past five five years or so, everyone knows that ready to drink cocktails is the next big wave, and it's already hit unbelievably like early people who brought into it were like this skinny, the skinny, you know, whatever, like Bethany Frankles, yeah, her stuff. Um but uh but we met her.
+
+[29:17] Remember Styles? What she said when we met her? No, Dave. I did not meet her. You met her, and you are the only one that knows that story.
+
+[29:24] Keep it straight. But where were you? I don't know. I don't think I was working with you yet. Um what'd you say?
+
+[29:35] He can't say it because it's so crazy. It's so crazy. It is crazy. So can can you uh Matt, you can bleep this, right? What am I gonna I'm gonna bleep the entire story that you're about to do?
+
+[29:48] No, you're just gonna bleep the part. So oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go. I love bleeping. So we were doing the Skull Project, which is uh, you know, where we get various famous people to do a uh a skull, which is you know, you look at someone in the eye, you toast them with a drink, and then you uh, you know, you look at them again.
+
+[30:09] It's all about the look. It's like a Swedish thing. And so when, you know, uh I was interested in a long time when Nils Norrin came on to the French Culinary Institute as part of the cooking issues blog, we were doing this skull project. Uh, and we got a bunch of cool people like Nastasi and I went to do uh um Merle Haggard. We just got a bunch of cool people.
+
+[30:26] So there was a big party for the Food Inc. uh food inc uh movie, I think it was, and Michael Pollan was eating in the restaurant downstairs, and Kirsten Dunced, but she wouldn't do a skull because she had just gotten out of some sort of thing that didn't allow her to do like liquor. She had had whatever, I don't remember why. Uh we got Regis Filbin, I'm pretty sure, and then Bethany Frankel was there. She wasn't quite as famous yet.
+
+[30:50] She was still doing her on that show, whatever the housewife show that she started out on was. And so she came out to do a skull, and I was super excited because I've always, you know, I grew up when I graduated college, like my my day started like doing Bondo work on my Pontiac listening to Regis and Kathy Lee, right? So like that was my I was on the ABC listening to Regis and Kathy Lee, like sanding down the Bondo work on the outside of my 76 Pontiac. So uh anyways, so I was super excited to get Regis, and then I think I mentioned how excited I was to get Regis to Bethany Frankel, and she just goes, Regis Philbin, Regis Philbin. I just saw him in my driveway like that.
+
+[31:33] And then walks out. Yeah. So I don't believe that. I do not believe that either. I don't I don't believe that Regis did that.
+
+[31:43] You don't believe she said that oh I believe she said that she said that she and there was a like a bunch of F bombs in that but since I wanted people to get the gist of the main story I removed the F F bombs and just left the one that couldn't be I just left the the the family friendly one that couldn't be removed. It sounds like a bit yeah she was kidding I mean I don't I guess yeah I'm assuming she was it was just a weird thing to say to a person you've never met before you know what I mean anyway yeah just a weird I know people who would say something like that just very weird. So anyway so uh going back to what I was saying before like uh re everyone uh uh regarding Aaron and what he's not saying is that a lot of people are um realize that ready to drink cocktails which is how we got on Bethany Frankl a lot of ready ready to drink cocktails is like uh a huge future market especially in times when nobody knows what the long-term future of the high-end cocktail bar is right the problem is that it's extremely hard to uh make any sort of anything right especially something that needs to be distributed there's a lot of laws there is equipment that has to be uh gotten there's uh you have to find copackers you have to find uh people that can make uh products in you know that are consistent that are uh that have a decent shelf life that aren't gonna go bad so it's a lot more of a rigmarole than people think it is. It's like even more of a you know how like everyone's like, you bake good cakes, you should open a bakery like that. And you're like, whoa, there's a lot more to baking good cakes uh, you know, than being able to to open a bakery.
+
+[33:29] It's like even more so trying to make a line of like Nastasi and I looked into making a line of sodas once and we're like, nope, nope, nope. Remember that, Nastasia? Yeah, that was terrible. Yeah, just too much work for very little return, especially at the beginning. Now returns are better on ready to ready to drink cocktails.
+
+[33:45] So what Aaron is trying to do here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is make it so that yeah, you're not going to get all of the benefits that you know that you would get as a bartender if you started a billion dollar brand on your own for sure. But it's like allowing you to make some money off of this without the huge investment in time, money, and risk that you would have to make to try to start from scratch on a ready to drink cocktail. Is that accurate? That's right. And I think that more so than that, like you could it's very possible to make more money by orders of magnitude by working, you know, with me or or in this capacity just via the virtues of scaling than you would even owning a bar, right?
+
+[34:30] Um the our margins currently are pretty thin just because we're small, but as we scale and our costs come down and we open more markets, um, you know, there's there's definitely a greater upside than pretty much any bar related career in terms of profit, but for the bartender. But I think also more importantly, this is one of the only fields where as soon as you get good at what you do, which is bartending, right? As soon as somebody like gets a bunch of press and gets awards and whatever. They move on to a step in their career which removes them from the very thing that they're good at, right? They go work for a brand.
+
+[35:08] They open the bar and are basically just like running the bar and not actually bartending. So, or they, you know, they go and become like an FMB director at a hotel, which again removes you from bartending. So this is meant to allow you to remain in bartending, reach more people, and also make it a stable income. And and uh all right, so where where do they buy where do they buy this stuff? Um, yeah, so you can go to livewiredrinks.com.
+
+[35:41] Um, we ship all over the country. We're also in stores um in New York, New Jersey, and California, and as of last week, Texas. Um we have a store locator on their website, and you can you can find all of those stores, but just a few uh in New York. You can get it at Smith and Vine, you can get it at Bowery and Vine. Going with that theme, you can get a Vines on Pine.
+
+[36:04] Uh a lot of Vine stores in New York and in California, where it KL or a barkeeper, liquor fountain, um what else? Cash. There's seven and a half um for the canned, and then in the future we're gonna have bottled stirred cocktails, which are going to be closer to 30 and 40. Get people all crunked up. Yeah, totally.
+
+[36:29] They're gonna be uh 12 ounce bottles. Uh we're actually pretty close to releasing our first, but uh you get somewhere between four and six servings per drink, and it it's meant to live at home, right? It lives in your liquor cabinet, you pour it over ice and you reach out. I mean, that frankly sounds a little bit dangerous. Like go down to a bodega and be like, woo!
+
+[36:47] Like that's gonna be like the new Edward 40's hands, is like, you know, live wire, live wire 12 hands. People are gonna be like going like, you know, people are gonna be going freaking for loco on this stuff, dude. Uh I wouldn't mind, but also, you know, it's funny. I have a lot of crotchety liquor store owners telling me that they don't want premix, they don't want to carry us because they don't carry anything like buzz balls because they don't want people getting drunk in their parking lot. So um you and they think alike.
+
+[37:18] I don't look, I'm just thinking, like, I'm just thinking like like when you when you were, did any of you go through a I lived in a place and had no money, so like I had to have a bunch of people over, so I went and got the cheapest thing in the bodega case that had the maximum amount of alcohol in it. Have any of you gone through this? Yes. I would get the two packs of Evan Williams from Warehouse. They'd sell two bottles in a clear plastic bag, and it was like 18 bucks for two 750s.
+
+[37:45] Wow. Yeah, dude. Do you know that there's like Buffalo Trace now makes a like a a bourbon that is I think it's called like like 83 poison or something like this. It has some sort of name, but it is 12, like 12 dollars a liter at Astra. What the hell?
+
+[38:03] Have any of you guys tasted this thing? No. No. Is it straight bourbon? I think so.
+
+[38:09] But isn't that it's crazy? But I mean, at the time of like being at that point of my life, it was definitely probably mixing with you know coke or something, you know, gent like some disgusting mixing. I mean, I still drank Evan Williams. When I was a kid, when I was a kid, yeah, but this makes Evan Williams look like a like a top shelf. Right.
+
+[38:27] You know what I mean? But like uh when I was a kid, the cheapest bourbon that you could get at the local, you know, store where I was was uh Old Crow was really cheap when I was a kid. And and Jim Beam was really cheap when I was a kid. They they've upped their prices. Old Crow isn't like a rock bottom brand anymore, right?
+
+[38:48] Uh I think that I mean, that's a beam brand, if I remember correctly. And they they've sort of re-upped all of their packaging. Even Overholt is a little bit nicer now. I just hate that guy. Anything that has that man's face on it, I will not drink.
+
+[39:02] Wait, why? I just hate him. For who he was or what he looks like? What do you I don't like looking at him? I have no, I know nothing about old Overholt.
+
+[39:12] I just don't want to see his face. I don't particularly like the rye, frankly, like almost any other rye I would prefer. Like there's there's never in my life, even the even the hunterproof one, I would never be like, you know what I would rather have instead of Rittenhouse? Overholt. Those words have never come out of my mouth.
+
+[39:31] I like it. Alright. Yeah, me too. And the the man's face, like maybe if they like blanked his face out or put somebody else's face or something on his bottle. Old Dave.
+
+[39:42] Did this guy like assault you in a dream? Old Arnold. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but you know, Nastasi and I are believers in holding things that people do in dreams against them. That is true, especially with each other.
+
+[39:54] Oh my God. You know, like, yeah. But whenever I do something in a in a dream to Nastasia, I like to at least do her the pay her the respect of then reinforcing it in the real life so that her anger is more justified. You know? Like when she couldn't simply watch that football field of uh what were you making, Sas?
+
+[40:17] Flash. Yeah, you couldn't watch a one football field for like 30 seconds while I was going away to check on something. Yeah. Yeah. We got in a real big fight.
+
+[40:27] Because if the you know that if the dog, you know if the dog licked one piece of that fudge, even though it's a whole football field, Nastasi wouldn't even try it. What the hell? And then I woke up and I was like, Oh man. And I called him and he was like, Well, well, why did you say it was gonna work? Like, why were we even doing it?
+
+[40:47] If you can even and I was like, Are you kidding me? You're the one who wanted to do this, and then it was as if it happened. Well, I feel like I feel like I owe her that. Like, no one wants to feel angry at someone and have it be not justified. Yeah, man.
+
+[41:01] I had a football dream too last night, actually, and it was that Bernie Sanders won the Super Bowl. He like beat Tom Brady. It was really awesome and very realistic somehow. Uh everyone was really shocked. Now, let me ask you this.
+
+[41:15] Was he wearing the mittens? Probably. Was it was it Irishman style? So it was young Bernie face like CGI'd onto old Bernie body, so he's still moving like an old man, but he's got a young man's face on. No, they're not.
+
+[41:26] Or was it the reverse? Old man face young body. It was old Bernie, but he was it was just like everyone was shocked because they were like, we thought Tom Brady was old, but man, he's really playing today. And then he won, and it was everyone was stoked. If anyone out there, if anyone out there who can hear my voice is uh has one of those deep fake programs that can make like uh deep fakes.
+
+[41:48] I don't want you to spend a lot of time doing it, but if any of you can put Bernie Sanders into a football game so that uh Jack can see it in the real life, I'd appreciate it. Bernie versus Brady would be. I feel like I heard this kind of request on the air during a presidential debate in 2016. Yeah, well, yeah, and we all know how that worked. Uh you're gonna get your wish.
+
+[42:12] Yeah, yeah. Russia, if you're out there, let me see you dance. Uh okay, listen. Uh George uh Hatsakas wrote in and said, Good morning. Uh I'm reading the book and I'm trying to find the proper equipment for a solids infusion.
+
+[42:27] So what we're talking about is taking something that's porous. Uh, my most well-known one that I did way, way, way back in the day was a cucumber. And then you suck the air out of the cucumber with a vacuum machine, uh, and then you have it inside of a liquid, probably gin with a little bit of Dolan Vermouth and some salt and a little bit of sugar, if you were smart about it. And then when you release the pressure, the air coming in pushes the uh the gin into the cucumber and makes it look real pretty and you know gives it a nice light uh gin taste. It's fun.
+
+[42:57] Anyway, it's fun. Yeah, it's really fun. Okay. Uh so I'm trying to find proper equipment, and then you wanted uh you sent me a link to an eBay thing that is a vacuum pump. You're in uh Germany, so it's a German link, but it's kind of a standard setup.
+
+[43:11] So that the what you're sending me a link on is a three uh cubic feet per minute, three CFM single stage oil-based vacuum pump with a uh what amounts to a pot, like I think like a 12-liter pot and a lid with some handles on it. And you want to know if this will work for vacuum fusion. It will, it will work like uh that vacuum pump that you have, three CFM, is not like super strong. Like uh it's a decent price. The I looked at the exact same rig that you're looking at for 130 something euro for 108 euro for 108 dollars here in the US.
+
+[43:44] For $108 dollars, I think it's a good deal because you can upgrade the vacuum pump later in your life if you want to. And the lid looks like it's nice and the and the pot is nice and big, so it's useful. And if you ever decide to get into casting or anything like that, uh like that, that's what you know most people are using it for. The one thing I'll caution you against again is that if you if you could buy the parts separately for a little bit more money, you could get a two-stage pump, which is going to get to a better vacuum. And you're also going to uh be able to get one with higher CFM, which will do it much quicker.
+
+[44:13] The gauge that they put on the vacuum gauge that they put on is is useless. Uh because if you if you look at it, um, you know, water, you should you if you're going to be doing vacuum infusion, you're going to be getting down to like you know, levels that will easily boil water at room temperature. So down like 20 millibar. So if at one atmosphere, like regular pressure is about a thousand something, thousand sixty-five millibar. And you're going to want to be getting down to like at least twenty uh to really be doing well.
+
+[44:41] And so on that gauge, you're not even going to be able to see it. Like, you know, you're going to be able to slam that sucker all the way down to its peg. So the gauge is not going to be that useful for you. But for a hundred, if you could get it for like a hundred bucks, I'd say it's a decent setup. That makes sense.
+
+[44:52] Is that a good answer? Is it fast enough, Size? This episode is brought to you by Organic Growers School, offering a holistic crop management series for farmers starting on March 23rd. This holistic crop management curriculum and training opportunity is in partnership with certified naturally grown. Growing a viable farm business is sustained by continuous learning of the land and your products.
+
+[45:19] In this workshop series, growers across Southern Appalachia and beyond will gain tools to manage their crop production for whole farm success. Organic Growers School is offering the holistic crop management training as a six-part webinar series. It will include a mixture of videos, resources, and live virtual meetings between March 23rd and April 27th. Learn more, meet the instructors, and register now at organic growerschool.org. Douglas just wrote in at the chat.
+
+[45:51] You want to take this one? I grew a ton of lemon ahi peppers in my backyard in Brooklyn this summer. And I'm intending to ferment and make a hot sauce. Any tips on something to m make it keep the end well, what? Okay, to help it hold its bright yellow color.
+
+[46:08] That's what he's getting at. I mean, I've never done a lot of long-term tests, uh, but that's almost always oxidation. So the problem with adding something like uh ascorbic acid uh vitamin C is that it will get consumed over time. Um, you know, you're gonna want to uh it you obviously if you're doing a lacto uh ferment, you're gonna be excluding oxygen. But I just want to, you know, when it's packaged, if you the more you can exclude oxygen and then uh put an antioxidant in, the longer the yellow color will be uh maintained and not go brown.
+
+[46:42] Uh but I don't know. I mean, maybe someone else in the chat room has some experience. Somebody did just write in and questi uh said sodium bisulfite. Okay, here's the thing sodium metabisulfite is an antioxidant that's used, for instance, in apples and whatnot. But be aware of this fact.
+
+[46:59] You have to use it sparingly, and uh some people, I'm not gonna say allergic reaction, some people can taste it at much lower levels than others. So, but until you know whether or not you are a person that really notices uh, for instance, Wiley Dufresne, my brother-in-law, loves sodium metabisulfite and uses it for his ant for antioxidant things instead of ascorbic acid in a lot of things because it does it's not consumed as quickly, lasts longer in these applications, as far as I can tell. But um, just be aware that different people have different sensitivities to it from a flavor standpoint, so just run it by a couple of people, the levels that you're using if you're gonna use it. But it's a it's available. I forget the commercial name of it.
+
+[47:43] Um, yeah. Uh all right. So, from Keith Fitzgerald. Question for Dave. I'm a culinary arts student in Ireland.
+
+[47:52] I'm uh I haven't been to Ireland uh in a while. I'd love to go back. Love Ireland. You guys been to Ireland? Yeah.
+
+[47:57] No, I have. Ireland's awesome. Super pretty. Super pretty. Like it.
+
+[48:02] Good place. Uh I'm a culinary art student in Ireland. I'm attempting to make a savory creme brulee with local crab meat. The uh the brulee works really well in a ramekin uh cheese brulee on top. What I'm trying to do is make a sphere of the brulee.
+
+[48:19] Uh, any I I like saying the word sphere because it doesn't really roll off the tongue. You have to sphere. When you say it fast, how do you smash it together? Sphere, sphere. You can't really say it fast, right?
+
+[48:30] Not really. Saz, is this a word you hate? No, I don't hate it. Okay. Just checking.
+
+[48:35] I know the word she hates. I don't I don't look, I generally try to give her trigger warnings on things I know she's gonna hate. Long ago, uh, working together, we stopped, I think, although occasionally she'll still do it to me, sending images that are horrifying without warning. Yes. Yes.
+
+[48:55] Yeah. I don't really think it's cool to do that. Like at one time in my life I was okay with it, but I just don't think it's cool. I don't think people should send hideous photos without warning anymore. It's like blowing up someone's mailbox, you know.
+
+[49:07] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't know what they had to deal with. You could erase someone's mind for a good 35, 45 seconds.
+
+[49:14] Like, what if they were just starting to like, what if they were just, like, they had just gotten that paragraph together they needed, or they were just honing in on something, and then you send them a picture of someone with their leg blown off, like, you know, in a hospital somewhere, and they're like, you're sending stuff? No. What am I supposed to do with that? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's not good.
+
+[49:37] This is why the the correct thing you do is I have an image. I think you might like it. Are you ready? And then they say yes, and then you send it. You know what I mean?
+
+[49:47] Wait, that's the warning. Well, what are you supposed to do? I think you might like it as a little generic or misleading. It depends on the person. It depends.
+
+[49:59] I'm not saying about a person with their leg blown off. I'm saying, like, for instance, like, for those of the listen to the show, like, there was a time when we were like really talking about the motorcycle guy who froze his foot and then cooked it, right? So you need a warning before you send someone a picture of the foot that the guy had in his uh a freezer that he was making the fajitas from. It's a word of warning. You might be interested in this story, but just as you know, there's like some severed feet in it, right?
+
+[50:26] Yeah, like you used to send the story around with the guy who cooked his penis. Not with pictures in it. And you used to make me. You used to say, Dave, send the send the send the story with the guy. And there's no pictures in there.
+
+[50:44] We have time for like two more questions. So, uh, what I'm trying to do is make a sphere of the brulee. Any ideas on how best to do this? Uh, how best to avoid the crab meat sinking all into one mess. So, what Keith is trying to do here is get a ball of creme brulee with crab meat in the center of it, and then set it.
+
+[51:03] Uh thinking of water bathing in a vacuum-packed mold uh instead of on thin toast or something. Um, thinking chicken skin uh crisps are similar. All right, well, also, is it possible to order the Searsol from somewhere in Europe? Hell, it's not even possible to order one here in the US, Keith. We're still working on it.
+
+[51:19] Uh every day Nastasia gets a different email saying that uh we haven't forgotten, we just don't care, right? From Amazon? Nah. We haven't forgotten you, we just don't care about you. Anyway.
+
+[51:32] Um so I think the best way to do this, uh look, you can make uh uh there's a lot of creme brulee brulee like things that instead of setting basing on cooking, they set based on a gel technology. So you can use um not just gelatin, but like gelatin and agar mixes a gel and to make creme brulee like things that A will hold their sphere shape when they'll get when they get torched. They'll be more self-supporting. But B, don't need to be cooked after they gel. So then what I would do is I would pour uh the mold uh halfway, put the you know, put the crab on top, let it sit on top, and then pour the rest of it and let it set.
+
+[52:12] What do you think, John? Do you think that'd be a way to do it? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Uh and you know, for recipes on things like that, you know, the old chymos uh hydrocolaloids blog, or just look up uh any of those, any of those things, and you should be able to get a good uh a good thing.
+
+[52:25] But you're gonna want some sort of flame proof uh uh probably gel in there anyway, just because creme brulee is pretty fragile on its own, and so I don't know how well it'll hold a sphere shape unless you have it floating in something. You know what I mean? Mark wrote in via email. I finally coped down my uh track down a copy of the Jeffree Steingarden book. It sits on my commode splade and face side down.
+
+[52:48] I'm sure Jeffrey would be pleased uh that his book is face down on your toilet. Because that puts it within easy reach of my bath and a chapter takes about as much time as I can enjoy a warm silk. Thanks for the recommendation. Um three, I've gone from uh the maniacal second what could have used a warning. What?
+
+[53:07] Toilet? Not the imagery of the whole thing. Oh my god. You don't even know what the person looks like. How are you imagining them in a bathtub?
+
+[53:16] I know what our personal is. I'm imagining the worst possible situation here. This person is from Cam loops in Canada, by the way. Anyway, uh so I've gone through, I've gone from the what? What?
+
+[53:33] I take it back. I totally take it back. Sonny Cam loops. Anyway, I've gone through a second listen through of the back catalog, uh, and trying to also read uh the cooking issues blog backwards and forwards. I'm coming across a problem, John, that we'll be dealing with almost right away.
+
+[53:49] When I click on the older posts, I get a 404. Don't know where to go. Um yeah. You know? So what are we gonna do about that, John?
+
+[54:00] Uh that website probably needs a major overhaul. We can we can work on it. Do you think that they we're gonna do it because we're we're gonna use the the cooking issues website soon for fun stuff. But do you think 404 is like it's because it's half of an 808? Wow.
+
+[54:18] Never thought of that. PC load letter. Yeah, PC little letter. All right. Jonas, uh, let's see.
+
+[54:24] Uh Jonas wrote in. This is a tough one, Johnny. So you have a pear problem. You're uh you're making a cocktail uh and you want a um you're making a pear-based cordial. Making pear flavor strong is very difficult because especially once it's been cordialized and infused, it's going to be relatively light.
+
+[54:42] So especially if you don't want it to taste cooked, it's almost it's extremely difficult. So I'm not going to answer your question uh today. I'm gonna try to think about it a little more. Uh but it's very hard without a centrifuge anyway, especially, and without just doing a lot of reduction to try to concentrate the pear flavor, but then it's a cook flavor. It's very hard to get pear flavor into drinks like that.
+
+[55:02] What about Aaron? You got any good success making a very highly flavored with pears, not with a flavor system of doing that? Uh I use pear Otovy. Like a quarter ounce. That'll do that'll do what you need.
+
+[55:16] All right. We have uh Scott Sullivan uh was uh he was talking about uh wrote in about corny kegs and carbonation. I still stand where I stand on carbonation and corny kegs, uh, but he's just saying carbon he carbonates at 50 psi, uh rolls back and forth, lets it sit for uh three to seven days, and then uh so to to settle and fully get all of the other gases out of solution, uh, and then uses a counterpressure filter to do it, and he gets decent carbonation. Three and a half grams of added CO2 per 750, which would have to be the calculation, but like, you know, it's not four volumes, which is what I like, which is like a lot. So it's like I think uh what?
+
+[55:56] Four volumes. Yeah, dude. Eight f freaking grams in a liter, dude. I don't mess the freak around. That's why this stuff's dude.
+
+[56:03] What what what on the market is carbonated at four volumes? Nothing. No, I mean alcoholic? Nothing. Or non-alcoholic.
+
+[56:11] A lot. A lot of high end seltzers are carbonated at four volumes. Alright. Anyway. But you you you put in four, but then you lose a lot off the D cap.
+
+[56:22] But if you put in three and you're if you put in like let's say two and a so like most most stuff, most commercial stuff's gonna be somewhere like a good carbonation from a commercial thing that can be pasteurized is like not grams, volumes, is like two and a half, right? Right, Aaron? Something like that? I mean, we do three and a half. We use a counter pressure filler.
+
+[56:42] Right. So you're doing in the cans? Yeah. That's cool. See.
+
+[56:48] Yeah. So you're doing three. But the problem is also is that volumes of CO2 carbonation carbonation should not be something that's talked about separately from the alcohol content. Do you know what I mean? Because like the the way it feels on your tongue is dependent on the amount of CO2 and the amount of alcohol that's in there.
+
+[57:07] So it's kind of a more complicated discussion. Anyways. But but you also say that, you know, for bottling, you you've had decent luck with corny kegs and counter pressure fillers, right? So you you didn't you disagree with me on this. Well, for I mean, I kind of by necessity have to do quick and dirty when I was managing the bar.
+
+[57:26] And for for our carbonation, we would basically um we'd fill a keg with almost zero headroom. I would carbonate it at about like 60 PSI for half an hour, and then I would stick it in the fridge overnight. And then we'd keep it counter pressured at like 12 PSI to push it. 12 psi differential. Just like the pushing the the pushing PSI for out of the keg cooler.
+
+[57:53] Right, right. All right. I mean, I think if you use a benchmark of like how a really good Moscow mule or Gin and Tonic would taste if you made it aluminum with like perfectly chilled, you know, fever tree or whatever. That I think is the benchmark for what somebody expects as a customer. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[58:13] Uh Lana loves whiskey wrote in via Instagram. Hey howdy and glad tidings. Uh enjoying your family meat science posts, uh, Stas enjoys the oh, my guess my family, not family show. I don't I guess they don't care about the family show part. Anyway, Nastasia wants us to be a full cursing all the time kind of a situation.
+
+[58:31] Uh question. I'm milk clarifying a rye cocktail uh on camera for a presentation. I've been trying to explain it in under 59 seconds to enthusiasts. I'm comfortable enough with low-level scientifics, but can't find uh piece of info in print required for social and legal responsibility on does the milk washing or milk filtration reduce uh out ABV? Yes, it does.
+
+[58:52] So I look, I can't I can't you can't prove exactly what the finished ABV is because also remember there's gonna be some evaporation as you're doing it, but even excluding evaporation, um you you're you're adding milk and then you're removing milk solids with some liquid in it, and you it's impossible for any any of us to know without running actual analytic tests, like how much alcohol is left in those solids. So what I typically do is is I just assume that the overall ABV of everything is pretty much the sum of the original plus the the milk, and then I assume that that the the alcohol loss is equal across. And so I know that's not accurate, so but it's it's is about as close as I can get. And so and I think it's reasonable. Do you think I mean uh Aaron, you deal with these kinds of issues you think that's reasonable from a from a legal responsibility standpoint as long as they're not putting it on a label and selling it um so uh help me understand they're concerned that they cannot accurately define the ABV to their guests yeah or to the person that they're telling this thing to on the on the internet I look at I mean just give a range yeah I would say I that's why I tell I tell him it's like rough but like like the the the it's it's gonna approximately be so if you take a if you if you had like a a bottle and bond that was 50% and you added uh you know for every liter you added 250 liters of milk then I would say it's almost the equivalent of adding 250 milliliters of water to uh to the liquor in terms of that that's the most it will be reduced but I would say it's on that order.
+
+[1:00:38] Would you say that's about right Aaron? Yeah I mean I think the the solids and milk are probably in the single digit percentages. So that's sort of the benchmark I would use I would reach out to Amon Rocky via DM on Instagram because he's made so much milk punch in this life that he probably has pretty good empirical evidence on that. There you go. That's a good tip.
+
+[1:00:57] That's a good pro tip there pro man hey uh can uh Ken Ingber longtime uh listener so I was talking about mirror oil the uh the uh oil fixing product that I wish they made a a home version of and uh he said that Kenji he thinks Kenji uh has solved this problem with uh gelatin. Again, not exactly the same thing. So, what Kenji did with gelatin was he made uh a gelatin, poured it into uh his used oil, and then it solidified at the bottom, allowed you to pour all the oil off the top, and all the water-based impurities are hidden in the oil, but that's not adding so the the mirror oil does a couple of things. One, it's a flock aid, so it helps to flock, but two, it does like a bentonite-style stripping, which the gelatin will do some of, but it doesn't stay in solution as long. But it does a stripping of all of the polar stuff out of the oil.
+
+[1:01:51] Um, and uh additionally, they add uh actual oil-based antioxidants to it. So I'm trying to figure out like a good mix of all of that stuff that can just be stirred in that that's cheap. But it was an interesting post. I'd forgotten about that. So uh interesting.
+
+[1:02:06] Um, we're not gonna answer all of these, but so well, so Spencer Roberts wrote in about crabs. The crab, the oyster crabs that we dealt with, not the other kind of crabs, right? But it's long and also included a poem, which we're gonna maybe put into the into the newsletter, right? And so then should we just and then I think Nick Devlin put uh or Devin Patello rather put in a uh uh a poem. Are we just gonna put that in a newsletter, guys?
+
+[1:02:38] What are we doing? You guys even hear? What am I doing? What am I doing? What'd you say?
+
+[1:02:45] Yeah. Poems in newsletter. Let's and let's save the questions for next week. Uh all right. All right, I'll say this.
+
+[1:02:53] Brandon Johnson wrote in via email. We'll end with this one. Um, hey cooking issues. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for me. My kids love homemade waffles with maple syrup, but as soon as the syrup soaks into the waffle, they beg for more syrup.
+
+[1:03:06] If there was a way to keep the syrup floating on top longer without penetrating the surface, they would consume less sugary syrup. Any suggestions of a technique or water repellent type food coating that could achieve the desired effect? Brandon Johnson. Like cracking egg on top. That's a water repellent coating that then the maple syrup will flow over the sides of.
+
+[1:03:23] I love eggs on waffles. You guys like eggs on waffles? Rub your hands of garlic first. Yeah, yeah. Remember my tip if you're gonna do your own TikTok, don't do the garlic.
+
+[1:03:32] Choose something different, like, you know, I don't know, whatever, your hair. No. But uh now, Anastasia, you were there for this one. Do you remember we had to do a goofy trick with waffles for somebody? And this is a huge pain in the ass, Brandon.
+
+[1:03:44] So you're only ever gonna want to do this once in your life. But it is possible to do reverse spherification on maple syrup. So you're adding calcium to maple syrup and then dropping it into a light, and I forget how we did it so it wasn't disgusting, but like a light alginate bath and creating maple syrup balls, you then age them a little bit, like in in like syrup so they don't leach out, right? Then you drain them, you put those into the waffle and they will survive the waffle coating and it will be a self-syruping waffle. They were pretty sick, right, Styles?
+
+[1:04:17] Remember those? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were a lot better than those weasley little crystal weasels that the that McDonald's tried to do with their with their syrup waffles because these were actual liquid syrup. When you bit into it, they went liquid. I have to say, as much as I hate those little balls, those spheres, it was an on-point technique.
+
+[1:04:34] And if I had a machine, if I could just go to the store and buy maple syrup balls to throw into my pancakes when I make pancakes, I would actually use them because they do taste good. I mean, I don't want to spend my I mean, if you want to spend your life doing that, I'll support it. There's gotta be a machine that does that though, right? I once built a machine for uh Wiley to do co-extruded uh like ball in ball things and because that's what he really wanted to do, and then Faron got some like $300,000 machine. This was back in like 04 or 05.
+
+[1:05:10] Got some like you know, some sort of industrial one that did it, and while they called me, he's like, nah, crap on it. And then we I stopped worrying about making machines to make little balls. Not me. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:05:22] Yeah. Alright. So we're gonna put uh the oyster poem uh on uh the thing. We're gonna put uh I'm gonna answer the the rest of the questions uh later. And for those of you that are in the business, you might not uh go.
+
+[1:05:37] Do you guys go to McSweeney's ever? I mean I've been. You all need to read this, uh you all need to go read this a short amagined monologue by Simon Unriks. Okay. It's called This is this is the reading, this is my reading assignment for the week.
+
+[1:05:56] It's called I am the designer of this restaurant's outdoor seating space, and this is my artist statement. And I think it's a satire, but I think it's a perfect send-up of a uh incredibly potentious artist statement, which I've had to write, incredibly pretentious like architectural talk, which I've had to read a lot, you know, but you know, because of you know, kind of who I hang out with what I do, and like how crazy it is that we pretend that these things that we have now are actual outdoor dining. It's very short, it's like you know, it's a page long, and uh I enjoy the send-up, so that's my that's my what I would read uh this week. Right. Cool.
+
+[1:06:33] Yeah, all right. Well, hey guys, thanks for coming on. And Stash it'll uh even if we're uh distance, it'll be good to have you back on our coast. Well, we never saw each other at all during the summer, so yeah, it'll be good for us. True, we would drive by, you would yell at me and spit at the car.
+
+[1:06:48] Remember? No. I'll come by massage and do social. Oh, John, so much nicer than Dave. All right.
+
+[1:06:57] And happy birthday, Jack. Oh, thanks. Happy birthday, Josh. Happy birthday, Jack. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:07:09] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:07:24] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:07:46] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Fergusonhome.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by a dozen cousins, soulfully seasoned, ready to eat beans. Learn more at AdozenCusins.com. This week on Meet and Three, we head into the second part of our mini series on global trade, where we talk about all things sweet, from chocolate and sugar cane to the cultural festival that accompanied the growth of the date industry in the U.S. They're using this romance and fantasy to say dates are exotic and you should consume them. I like to think of the food that we eat as archaeological artifacts, in part because the history of humanity is in the stands in your produce market.
+
+[1:10] It's not like other foods. We have very like personal feelings about chocolate. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. Every Tuesday from roughly noon to like roughly one or so. Uh I am uh as usual in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
+
+[1:43] Uh Nastasia is in transit between uh California and uh New York. We have uh John in uh where are you now? You're in Connecticut now, and Matt in Rhode Island, just to let you know where we are. Uh but today is oh uh today is a uh different from normal. We're not gonna do our normal um, we're not gonna do our normal thing.
+
+[1:58] Uh today is a tribute to uh Maria Guarnicelli. Maria Guarnicelli was my uh my editor. She's the reason that I wrote a book. She forced me to write uh to write a book. She passed away this uh this last weekend.
+
+[2:19] Um she was one of those people in the food world that um if you weren't in the food world, especially food publishing world, you might not have known who uh she was, but she had an incredible outsized influence on uh on book publishing uh in general and cookbook publishing in particular. Um we have uh we have with us today uh like some of the amazing people that she you know helped um you know help bring that their authorship out into the world. Uh and also her uh the other important thing she brought into the world I just saw came on is uh Alex Guarnicelli, uh her daughter, uh famous uh chef, teleview, uh television personality. Uh Alex, hey, uh good to uh good to see you. I hope uh, you know, I'm sorry for your loss.
+
+[3:12] Uh thank you. I mean, this is what my mother would like. People talking about her. Well, so like I think we're gonna keep it relatively uh freeform. So I'm gonna uh say uh later on in the show, we're gonna have uh Rick Bayless uh coming on, who is one of her long time authors, long, long time authors.
+
+[3:34] Uh but right now, uh, we have also uh on the line with us, uh, we have uh Harold McGee. Uh interesting. Hello, Harold. There he's here, he's here somewhere. Yeah, he's on mute.
+
+[3:48] Yeah, he's coming back in. So Maria actually signed him up for signed up the right before she moved publishing houses. She signed up for the second edition of On Food and Cooking. So if you enjoy the second food uh edition of On Food and Cooking, you have Maria to uh thank for that. Uh we also have uh Kenji uh Lopez Alt on the phone.
+
+[4:12] Uh, how you doing, Kenji? I'm doing good. How are you? Uh doing all right. So if you've read a cookbook in the past uh five years or so, you know uh who uh Kenji is, and Maria was also the person who stewarded uh his you know uh book uh the food lab into um into existence.
+
+[4:30] So um, you know, Harold will be back on in a second, he'll dial back in or something. John, if you can help navigate Harold back on to the conversation, that'd be that would be great. Um so you know, I'll just I'll start by saying this, and you know, Alex, you might have something to say in Kenji as well. Uh but first of all, Nastasia, you should chime in a lot here too, because she loved Nastasia. Like so like the love, we loved Nastasia.
+
+[4:57] So for you know, for those of you that never met Maria, like Maria had let's just say a reputation. Would you say that's fair, guys? Yeah, describe her, Dave. Or Alex, describe your mom. I mean, you know, I would go to parties in my 20s when I first started cooking.
+
+[5:17] I would go to like chefs's parties and stuff, and people would say, you know, I'm Jenny, nice to meet you, and I'd say, I'm Alex Horner Shelley, and half the time people would bristle and say, Oh, I know your mother. And 56 times out of that, they would say, She declined my book. So I started stop saying my last name at parties. Does that describe my mother in a roundabout fashion? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm like, you know, I'm gonna say this with all due respect.
+
+[5:52] She was scary, right? She was the only person. She's the only person that ever scared Dave Arnold. And we've worked together for 13 or who knows how many years. I've never seen him scared of anyone but her.
+
+[6:08] She scared the life out of me. She did, she scared. And you know what? And the thing is is that like I know that she and I've seen her be incredibly harsh to people, right? But like she was never harsh to me ever.
+
+[6:20] Ever. No. But she scared the daylights out of me. Like something about it is like, because I think like what was kind of best about like one of the professionally best things about her was that she was just such a judgment machine. She was always judging whether something was good or bad, or like whether it was, and so like you were always petrified because she was so fine-tuned to everything that you were just petrified that you were gonna like say something, be like, Oh my god, I was wrong this whole time.
+
+[6:51] You're an idiot, get out, you know. She was constantly like, so like whenever I was with her, I was just completely nervous all the time, right? It was it was a kind of a weird dynamic. Meanwhile, she would say, Oh, that Dave, he sucked, what a doll. And that Nastasia, what a doll she is, but Dave didn't do his homework.
+
+[7:14] And here we are waiting for Dave. And I know he's brilliant, but I just don't know. And then she'd say, But Kenji, on the other hand, Kenji has done all his homework and is brilliant. So she thought you both were brilliant, but it was more like a teacher. And the ones that sat at the front of the class and turned in their homework, those were the, you know, those were the people on the on the on the nice list, the Christmas card list.
+
+[7:42] You know what I would say about her is that she was she was also just sort of, you know, fiercely loyal. Um and if you were um if you had done your homework and you were on her good side that day, um, she she was your biggest advocate and your biggest supporter. Um and I and you know, when when she was editing my book, I I had never felt supported in the way that I did with her, not from not from any other teacher or any other boss, um, you know, with the exception maybe of of Ed Levine, who is uh who is also uh fiercely loyal. But um, you know, wet what it was what whether it was it in in her office or you know, or or the frequent three to four hour lunches we had, um, which were you know we're s were scheduled for an hour and would go on for the entire afternoon. Um she you know, she was the same in or out of the office, and and you could always tell when someone was coming like when someone came into her office, they came in with that kind of deer and headlights look, um, or when a server came to our table, or when the chef came out to talk to her.
+
+[8:37] It was all peep she she definitely had a reputation. Um and and it was one that you didn't even have to know her to under to see it, you know. She she she she wore her emotions on her sleeve, and you could tell um in the first time you met her, you could tell that whatever she was going to say to you right now is going to be something honest. She didn't, she'd never beat around the bush about anything. Um, and and I, you know, I I I admired that because I you know, I'm I'm the kind of person who needs someone to tell me when you know something I did sucks or or when something I did is good.
+
+[9:09] Um, because um, yeah, I mean I think I think that's how that's how you that's how you know she she she wasn't accepting of anything other than perfection. Um and I I actually really admire her about that. Yeah. What what restaurant did she take you to? Kenji was did she choose one and take you?
+
+[9:26] She always took us to my lino. Yeah, it was most frequently my Lino, actually. Yeah. Yeah, she loved that place. And and I and every single time we went, there wasn't a single time when we didn't sit and then have to be moved to a different table because she wanted to go sit somewhere else.
+
+[9:40] Yes. Oh my god, Kenji, I can't believe you've managed to. I was wondering what little sort of nuances would come out. I kid you not when I say my mother and father and I would go out and she'd say, I want to sit over there. I I don't like our table.
+
+[9:54] And we would move one time we moved three times until my mother felt that the the light was hitting our table in the right way. And also, um, people say to me, you know, like, how did you become a chop judge? And how did you become a judge on TV? And I'm, you know, I say, Well, I was in training for it my whole life by accident. My mother collected gourmet magazine, every um it um every single issue and put them in bound, you know, in binders.
+
+[10:25] So my mother has every issue of gourmet magazine from like 1960, whatever, until 1990 or whenever it was. Um, and she would make a pie and she would say, Is this as good as the 1974 October one? Or do we like this as much as the 1981 uh November one? And why? And that was sort of what we and then you had to have an answer.
+
+[10:53] You had to, you know, and I was like, Jesus, I don't know. I'm stressed out. This is pie. It's just a pumpkin pie. And my father would say, Well, I, you know, the crust is my mother would say, Yeah, you know, the filling is just so I think when she started in on cookbooks, I knew it was really something when she would take the whole manuscript and just cook it.
+
+[11:17] Wow. And she would, and we did the same thing. And so every author was on trial at my childhood home, you know, for uh, you know, like, oh, there's so-and-so, you know, none of his recipes work. And that's how I came to know people for life, you know. Oh, he's late on his manuscript.
+
+[11:34] I can't say hello to him. She always said hello to me, and I was always late. Yeah, but you ever notice how uh Alex, if you didn't have a sat what she considered a satisfactory answer, she wouldn't say anything, she just keeps staring at you until you had a satisfactory answer. Oh yeah. Oh god.
+
+[11:52] By the way, I might describe all of you as an irreverent band of marauders in your own right. So I just want to say it's not like my mother picked the straight and narrow types to deal with. I think she she she knew, I mean, the two of you in particular, she knew about you before she worked with you and she talked about you. And I used to say to her, I mean, Kenji really, my mother, before I could say anything to her about Kenji, she was already talking to me. But you, Dave, honestly, I said to her, you know, Dave Arnold, this guy can, you know, he's so he's such a nerd in the most glorious way.
+
+[12:34] He loves to know the why, the mechanics, why things work, why they don't. He likes a clear answer. He will diligently work until he finds one. You know, I said to my mother, he's so up your alley. Just the way he does his work and his what's the word I'm looking for, I guess, like a well, really integrity at all cost.
+
+[12:56] And uh that's what she found. Um, and and look at your books. I mean, look at how great the books are. It's not just because of my mom, but don't you think my mom just kind of like gives great flowers, like the right water and and sunlight. I I can tell you, I mean, you know, my book, um, I I mean, I wouldn't, I would definitely not have the career I have today um if if it wasn't for your mom.
+
+[13:24] Um, you know, what when I when when your mom called me, I I had already talked to um a dozen other publishers, including you know, including my former employers um at Cooks Illustrated, who, you know, who also do science and stuff. Um, um, and virtually all of them had had, you know, told me that they they wanted a shorter book or they wanted it to be um, you know, they you know, we we a very different book from from what what it ended up being with your mother. Um, and I I remember when your mother called me, um I was I was living in a in a one bedroom apartment in Brooklyn um with no windows. I I went out onto onto the uh the balcony um to take the call in my in my underwear in the winter. Um because because you know, because I was inside and my wife was working inside, and um and your mother the reason I mean the reason I went with Norton um is because uh is because your mother knew what she was talking about is is you because your mother would clearly had read some of my work um and i knew like you know i want someone who sort of understands what it is i'm trying to do um and she did and i got that in our in our first 20 minute phone call um i got that she got that um and then to her credit you know when i was writing my book and originally it was supposed to be five or six hundred pages and i you know i turned in 800 she was like this is good can you give me another can you give me 600 more pages i'm like sure all right um and you know and so with without her it would have been a very different book my career would have been very different um and you know i i never felt more supported than when i was than when i was working with her um and and you know and and be even be even before i met her um of course i would not have been able to do what i what i do now um had it not been for um you know for for Harold's book uh and and and for the new edition of joy of cooking um and you know all the all these works that um sort of paved the way for um and you know Einstein told what Einstein told us cook I think that was hers as well yeah all you know all these books um that on science food science and technique that were sort of aimed at home cooks things that um um you know that that my my work is very much based on um without your mother I I can very safely say that that I would not be doing what I do right now um which you know so I I owe her a ton beyond beyond just my immediate um working with her as my editor.
+
+[15:47] And she also did blockbuster books that weren't in that vein. You know, like she did uh she was uh Fuchsia Dunlop's American editor, Jimmy Rogers, uh Lini Cafe. Yeah, the Zuni Cafe cookbook, huge, huge book. You know what I mean? That that manuscript sat around the apartment for years.
+
+[16:05] I I that Zuni Cafe book, and the first manuscript was in the bathroom. Like, think about like the what I bring to the table is like that was the toilet reading in my bathroom. Was the the Zuni Cafe manuscript? And so of course I I was reading it, you know. And my mother said, What do you think?
+
+[16:22] And I said, I just don't see it, you know. And I generally was okay, but I was like, I don't see this. And she said, just wait. And I remember that. And then the book, then other versions of it started appearing, and I was reading and reading, and I said, You're really teasing out a story here that I didn't see initially.
+
+[16:41] And she said, Yeah. She said, We're getting there. And then she just brought home the book, and she was so nervous because I think, you know, she really worked. Let me tell you, there were some books she worked harder on, even harder on than others. Um, and that was a book we we ate a lot, we ate most of that cookbook, my father and I.
+
+[17:03] Um, but she was just really wanted the story to come out, and and it just did, I guess, um, in a very lasting way. Sometimes I say to, you know, chefs, you know, how do we hit the refresh button? And I say, sometimes you've got to go back to an old book to refresh. I said, just go read the Zuni a little bit. Go zone out on the and the 20 page uh bread, you know, salad recipe.
+
+[17:29] It's like five ingredients and it's like a 20-page recipe. You know, the the irreverence and indulgence of thinking there was that much to say and going with that. You know, my mother didn't um seem to reference anybody around her. There was my mother was not one for social comparison, if you know what I mean. She would wear a Ferragamo scarf with a Prada purse and new balance sneakers and a Lanz and t-shirt.
+
+[17:56] She just had no, she didn't care um how you combine things. She just wanted what was good. And my mother was always wore comfortable shoes, also. I remember that. Yeah, I mean, good.
+
+[18:10] That's just it. My mother, my mother just uh called me from the hospital uh not a week ago, and she said, uh, I'm looking at Mark Forgion's restaurant. Is he good? And I just said, how do I sum up someone like whether they're good or not? But that's how my mother, oh, he's good, or she's good, or that croissant I took a bus train and a boat to was worth going for.
+
+[18:36] That's the other thing about my mother would go to Kuadaloop to taste one good olive. You know, it didn't matter what she had to do. And I think you were all like her favorite olives. That's it. She you remember she would how much she hated people whose recipes didn't work.
+
+[18:56] Oh god. Oh yeah. I mean, people out there, the stories. If I could tell you half, she was also could be, let's say, real rough on people that she thought had done. And if I could tell you guys the stories, oh my god.
+
+[19:16] Oh my oh my god, the things she would say were amazing, amazing, you know. Yeah. If you didn't do your homework, man, you were out of the circle of trust. And here's what was so strange is that I was always sort of surprised anybody wanted her approval, you know, because it was so hard to get. But I think um what was it you think?
+
+[19:37] I think she I think she I think she knew how to translate what you wanted to say or help you find your voice and sort of connect the dots, or you know, I always feel like my mom would, you know, if it were a a book were a closet, you know, she would show up with the empty closet and the clothes and the rack and the hangers and just say, you start by hanging them all, and then I'm gonna rehang them and we're gonna argue, and then we're gonna rehang them again, and then we'll see what we have. I mean, what happened to your books with my mother? What happened when you were done? Oh, you well, my book got it went through several iterations, you know. For uh initially it was going to be she's like, Kenji, we have to do this in two volumes.
+
+[20:24] Um, and then I remember doing I remember we went in and had a long three-hour lunch um talking about how the book was going to be in two volumes, how we're going to divide it, and then a week later she was like, Kenji, the two volume idea is stupid. That's a bad idea. We're going to we're going to make it into one volume. You know, it was that kind of thing where whatever whatever her idea at the moment was, she was um she was all in on it, you know. Um, but she could also change her mind.
+
+[20:48] But you know, but the thing about working with your mom was that um just given her track record, um, you know, she I think right before mine, my right while we were working on mine, she um Molly Stevens' second book might have come out all about all about roasting and the um and uh Grand Cosina had had just come out. Um, and it's like all these great, great books. Um, and she, you know, she doesn't have a bad book in her in her in her backlog, you know, so it's like whatever you knew that if she was if she was if she said what you're doing is good, and if she said the idea, you know, what it what how it's turning out is good, then you knew that it was good. Um, because I I had never published a book in my life, and and so I kind of had to go, I had to trust her, you know, and and I did. Um, and I'm and I'm very glad I did.
+
+[21:34] But you know, like you said, she she was a she was a great judge of what's good and what's not. Um and so if she told you something you was you were doing was good, then that you know that's why you sought out that approval because you knew that she could tell. Um so yeah, my experience was with working with her was that every meeting was passionate, every meeting was full of um this is this is terrible, this is great. Um, but what you knew that whatever we were gonna land on at the end was going to be great. And she was also it's it was everything too, right?
+
+[22:03] I know with me, she was like, what about what about this form factor? What about she would just hand me a bunch of books and like paper stocks, and she would be always be thinking about like what's the paper stock gonna look like? What's the book gonna look, you know, like what's the physical form factor, how's it gonna feel, like where's it like how is someone gonna use it? She was just like tuned into all of the like book as object thing as well, which of course, you know, someone my age, I groove on book as object because I am a lover of books as things, you know what I mean? Um but also a book you're gonna use that you're gonna open and reference and thumb through and leave on the counter, open to a certain page.
+
+[22:43] She was really big on the size and the shape of the book. And I won't even tell you what a book jacket experience was like. Particularly when I was like, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten, and in my early teens, my mother would bring home 14 jackets and hang them all up and we would sit in the kitchen, my mother, father and I, and look at them all. And my mother would say, what do you think? And you know, we would just stare at book jackets.
+
+[23:11] I mean, I don't know what everybody else was doing at the dinner table. But what I was looking at any number of book jackets. I remember that by the time the Zuni Cafe came out, I had seen seventeen iterations of that jacket. It was it was actually jarring when I saw the book in the store because I just thought, oh, you know, that's what I've been staring at for five years at home. And here other people know about this, right?
+
+[23:43] Um boy how she agonized over how it felt and how it looked. And and it's surprisingly um that's the thing kind of about my mother is the vanity of the book. You know, even though you would certainly not accuse my mother of being a vain person, she knew the importance of vanity for the book as object as you say. I mean I think it's I I wish more people still thought about that. That's so many books look so nasty nowadays.
+
+[24:13] You know what I mean? Like they're just nasty. Yeah. Because nobody cares about them anymore. You know what I mean?
+
+[24:18] So it's uh I don't know. So uh Harold I see is back on Harold, how did she convince did she have to convince you to do the the the the second uh the second version like like I know that she signed you on to do the second version and then she moved the publishing houses, but how'd that go? Yeah. Yeah, it's uh one of the great regrets of my life that I uh I was her author and I never got to work with her. Right.
+
+[24:44] Uh yeah, uh timing uh just didn't work out. So yeah, I was it was 1994 when I first met her, and uh it was at a dinner with a bunch of people after an IACP meeting, and I didn't know her, she didn't know me, but by the end of the dinner we realized that um uh I was at Scribner, she was at Simon and Schuster, she was in charge of Scribner food books, and so I was hers. And uh we had been trying for I would say a year to convince uh Simon and Schuster to do uh revision of On Food and Cooking, and basically getting nowhere. Um maybe two, three days after I got back from that IEC trip in in New York, I got a phone call from my agent who said, So uh Maria's been in touch. Uh we've got a contract.
+
+[25:48] It just happened like that. Um then uh it took me 10 years to write that book, and that was just too long by the time um I was halfway done. Um she had moved on to Norton. So I uh never got the chance to work with her, but I I had many opportunities when our whenever I was in New York, and in that time and afterwards, actually, we would get together for lunch or dinner and uh talk about uh all kinds of things. And you're mentioning uh Judy Rogers' book reminded me of uh something that I'd actually forgotten about until just now.
+
+[26:32] Uh when Judy was writing her book, Maria came out to work with her in uh Berkeley, uh San Francisco, and uh uh Judy wanted to ask me some technical questions, and so Maria said, Why don't we all get together for dinner? So we all got to dinner, uh, got together for dinner at Chay Panese. And uh I'm thinking, you know, this is this is a great gig answering a few questions and getting to eat here. Uh we're we're in the middle of dinner, and uh Maria looks over my shoulder, uh, says, Excuse me, gets up from the table, walks over to another table, and says very loudly, I love you. And it turned out to be uh Mark Morris, the dancer who was in town for a performance with uh at the Berkeley um uh public events program.
+
+[27:30] And so they had this wonderful conversation. You know, Judy and I were kind of looking at each other and uh and wishing that we were as bold as she was to just get up when she saw what someone she loved and uh uh and love them. So uh yeah, she was she was irrepressible. That's such a great word. Yes, irrepressible at any moment.
+
+[27:58] By the way, she calls you how. Yeah. Right. And so she I said, my I said, I'm making this squash soup every day at the restaurant, and sometimes when I put it in the fridge, it bubbles and it frops, and it's almost fermenting, and I don't know why. And my mother said, Well, just ask how.
+
+[28:14] Just call him. And I said, Who's how? She said, Hal McGee. And I said, Mom, I'm not going to call Harold McGee and say, hey, buddy, I've got some fermenting soup and I don't know why. I think he's got bigger fish to fry.
+
+[28:35] And she said, Oh, for God's sake, just call him. I'm sure he's there. And I did write you a note, and you answered me that indeed the squash was fermenting. I think we talked about dairy uh interacting with the squash when it sits. Um, but that was just it.
+
+[28:55] I mean, if my mother wanted to ask Barack Obama a question, she just would pick up the phone. Um, she um in the nursing home I had, I put her in a nursing home for a few months because she couldn't really couldn't, she needed that level of care. And I would she I'd call her and she'd say, Well, they just delivered my lunch. And I'd said, Oh, okay, you know, and I would send her food and because I knew how, you know. And she'd say, I called down to the cafeteria, and I told Jay that I thought his soup was pretty good today.
+
+[29:30] You know, the seasoning was really on. I thought, and I'm thinking to myself, like, my mother is still crossing the room at Shea Panice in her way, like wherever she is, she's evaluating and admiring. Constant evaluation. I'll tell you a story that she said about Kenji. Here's the kind of thing she would do.
+
+[29:50] Uh oh. So like Ken Kenji and I were writing our books at the same time. We're writing our books roughly at the same time, right? Mine much shorter. So, like, even though it took me infinity for how long it should have taken to write it, you know, plus the years to start writing it, which Maria was very patient.
+
+[30:05] Anyway, so like we're we're actually physically writing at the same time. And you would go into her office, and by the way, back me up, back me up, folks. Like her office, I don't know if she actually had furniture because it was constructed of books. You know what I mean? Yes.
+
+[30:19] You'd walk in, it's just like just books, just books, books. She would like constantly throw books off. So every time you had a meeting, you would end up with five books, and yet somehow like her office was still all books 100% of the time. So I walk in, and her uh her assistant, for most of the time I was there, it was a guy named Mitchell Coles, right? So like uh you you go across, and the the assistant's office it was much neater.
+
+[30:44] It had a uh like a bookshelf/slash filing thing, and on it were stacks of printed manuscript stuff. And Kenji had like, you know, like a giant section of stacks of paper that he had already submitted via manuscript to uh to Maria. So like I would go in and see Kenji's growing stack of paper and be very jealous. Uh and she was trying to play us off just to see who was gonna get their manuscript done first, so she would like poke fun at each of us. But I'm I remember um like early on in the process, because she was like, you know, like I was saying, very very keyed into things like photos, right?
+
+[31:20] And if I have time, I'll tell us another photo story later. So she's one day out of nowhere, she just looks at me in her office, and okay, like I said, like whenever I'm with her, my my knees are shaking. I'm petrified that she's gonna all of a sudden excoriate me, which she's never done. And she goes, You know, Kenji wants to take all of his own photos, and then just gives me this look. Just gives me this look.
+
+[31:43] Like her eyes open up like three times wider than normal. And her eyes opened wide, which she wanted him to, folks. And like, I was just like, um, um. And then I think I like maybe like three minutes as you were there. You remember this?
+
+[31:58] Yeah. I was like, oh my God. But like, you know, look, she let him do it, and it ended up being the right thing to do because, you know, Kenji, there's no way you could have written that book with a photographer. No. No.
+
+[32:12] Especially, especially because I I I mean, I I didn't really have the space for it. And uh, or yeah, and and I and like I said, I I I wrote a lot of my book in my underwear at like from like midnight to 4 a.m. So pulling the tubing, doing the tuban book there. Yeah, I'm I'm not great at work at working with other people in general. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[32:35] Yeah, it's true. I have to, and it sucks, believe me. But uh the uh not just not just use us, come on. Uh the yeah, so I'll tell you a quick story about a photography. So I also like find it difficult to work with people that I don't already know intimately, you know what I mean?
+
+[32:53] Uh so I wanted to use my uh, and you know, since she's gone now, I can safely say this. So I I wanted to use my brother-in-law, who's a professional photographer, Travis Huggett, to shoot my book, because among other things, like he knows me and he knows my level of disorganization, my level of crazy, right? And also he's quick and doesn't mind working with whatever lights are around, he's not gonna like you know, prim it all up and all this other stuff. So I I knew I wanted to work with him. And um, I was like, Well, we, you know, I I floated the idea of working with my brother-in-law to Maria, and she was like no you may never work with your family on a book.
+
+[33:39] And I was like, uh what I did was, hey, we got Rick Bayless on. Hey Rick, how you doing? I am doing great. How are you? Oh, doing well, doing well.
+
+[33:51] So what I did was, folks, is I said, okay, this is this is the closest I got to lying to Maria. So you just you guys decide whether this is a lie. So I um I just got Travis to shoot a bunch of uh photos of of cocktails, because we'd already decided I was gonna do a cocktail book on a she didn't want me to write a cocktail book, by the way, at first. Um she's like, people don't read cocktail books, don't write a cocktail book, write a book people will read. She's right and right and right and wrong.
+
+[34:18] She ended up bending back. Anyway, whatever. Uh so uh I had Travis shoot a bunch of stuff, and I just gave her the the pictures, and she was like, Yeah, we can use this guy. And so then I had to maintain this fiction the entire time. And I never said he's not my brother-in-law.
+
+[34:34] I said, What do you think of this guy? And and so we ended up using my brother-in-law. I'll never forget, we were in her office for one of these marathon photo sessions where she was going through the photos and how they matched up with chapters, and Travis and I were there at Norton, you know, seated in one of these like conference tables, and she turns to me terrified, terrified. Everything, especially when we were together, terrified. She turns to me, she goes, Where are you going uh for Thanksgiving this year?
+
+[35:02] Oh and by the way, Maria always uh went to Thanksgiving at Jean-George Restaurant. Alex, am I right? Oh yeah. Yeah, that was her Thanksgiving. That was her Thanksgiving tradition challenges.
+
+[35:12] Yeah, yeah. Uh, which by the way, good call, probably, right? Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Nice room.
+
+[35:18] This is a nice room. If you've never been to JG's main room, nice room. Anyway. Uh so she's like, Hey Dave, where are you going to Thanksgiving? She doesn't talk like that, but you know what I mean.
+
+[35:25] Hey Dave, where are you going to uh Thanksgiving's year? I'm like, oh, uh, I'm going to uh Connecticut. And then she turns to Trav. Well, what about you, Trav? Where are you going for Thanksgiving?
+
+[35:32] And he goes, I'm also going to Connecticut. And that was the closest. And we're both like, don't dig, don't dig, don't dig, don't dig. And she didn't dig. And she ended up like really liking Travis's work.
+
+[35:44] And I think understanding that you know the way he could interact with me, like made the book better. So I don't know whether she secretly knew somewhere deep inside that something was up, but that's the closest I ever got to lying to Maria. Well, Dave, she didn't know, but now she does. And there will be repercussions. Yeah.
+
+[36:04] I feel good coming clean. Nastasia knew, so I made Nastasia maintain the lie. It's never cool. Never cool making somebody else maintain your live for you. But that's the thing.
+
+[36:14] Is it a lie, or did I just like is it a hard omission? You lied. Dave. As the only remaining Gorna Shelley Gene pool, I'm gonna say you've lied. You shall be judged.
+
+[36:28] Well, I knew she would judge. That's why like I had to like I had to maintain it. Had to maintain. You should just you should know that my mother would call me and only reference people as to how their book sales were. You know, she'd be like, Well, Joe called me, 60,000 in print right now.
+
+[36:46] That's how she would identify people. Everybody was how many copies were in print. Um and she was always so excited about how well your book did in a category that she didn't she didn't have faith in, honestly. She did not have faith in the category. And the only reason it ended up being that was she um I was super late in even starting to write a book, and she hauled me into the Norton offices and had me like do like a song and dance for the North Norton uh freaking uh bigwigs, and I made them a bunch of cocktails, and she's like, Well, Dave, it turns out that the that the um you know the management here at Norton are a bunch of booze hounds, so they want you to write the cocktail book, whether or not it sells.
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+[37:26] I was like, okay. I remember that. I literally remember that, and I remember her saying she was surprised that they were on board and that she was very she had uh every faith in you, um, but that she didn't believe in the trend. And I think she was always so astounded by how well the book uh did and is still doing. Well, for a cocktail, I mean that's why she like she wanted me to write a book that like a lot like look, like Kenji, you're like the the the home run hitter, right?
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+[37:55] So it's like you know, she knew that that book was gonna be a monster, you know what I mean? And so uh you know, she was really good at that. She was good at seeing like a uh uh a need that didn't quite exist yet, and then like hitting that, you know what I mean? That one, that one was uh, right. So can I tell you one quick story before Rick comes in on charcuterie?
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+[38:18] So the the Oh yeah, Jim Leahy, another one. Hi, Dave. Hey Jim, how you doing? Best uh uh two two quick things I'll say. So Jim Leahy's Sullivan Sullivan Street Bread.
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+[38:29] That book, right, sold more bread books, the first no-need bread book than like any other bread book ever, right, Jim? I don't I don't know if that's true. I would love to think that that's true, but I think that there were true. Well, thank you. I wish it were true.
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+[38:44] But if it because it because if it were true, um, I guess I would be I would be in a very great, a nice place right now. Um but uh you know, yeah, it definitely uh, you know, uh it I mean I know I kind of I'm I'm a little late to the conversation, and I apologize. Uh but yeah, Maria was you know an amazing editor. And uh, you know, as you know, Dave, she she was is quite was quite a character. As are you, Jim.
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+[39:15] And yeah, no, we had we had many arguments, but they always ended up, you know, uh, we always ended up in agreement in the end. This conversation has become like a pirate ship. Yeah. Yeah. This is a ship of pirates.
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+[39:29] Yeah. This episode is brought to you by a dozen cousins, soulfully seasoned, ready to eat beans. A dozen cousins aims to bring families delicious and easy to prepare food inspired by traditional Creole, Caribbean, and Latin American recipes. From their Cuban black beans made with onion, garlic, and bell peppers, to their Mexican cowboy beans made with green chilies and jalapenos. All the beans from a dozen cousins use easy to recognize ingredients like beans, vegetables, and nutrient-dense avocado oil while avoiding GMOs and artificial flavors.
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+[40:07] Learn more at a dozencousins.com. I wanted to get all these people on just because we're so like some of us like are in similar veins, but we're also so different. I wanted to show some of the breadth of what she kind of was involved with. Well, I I will say, knowing that Rick is here, um, Rick, how many books did my mother do with you? Am I wrong saying it's more than 20?
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+[40:44] No, it's way way less than 28. Oh, we did eight we did eight books, eight books together. Eight books. Wow. That's a lot.
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+[40:54] It was amazing because she was the first and only editor that I had. We did this one other little book uh that I did with my daughter. Um, and Maria just couldn't get her head around it. And it was a P because Maria only wanted to do books that were rock solid and that would last forever. And I knew this book wasn't gonna, it was a it was a point in time book when my daughter was between 12 and 16 years old, and we wrote this book together.
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+[41:21] And I knew it wasn't gonna have legs um beyond uh maybe three or four or five years. And so she couldn't wrap her head around it. So we sold it to somebody else, but it taught me a huge lesson that um Maria was one of the few editors that really edited. And um so we were with another company uh for that one book, and I was shocked beyond belief that my editor in that one didn't really even read the book, just said, oh, it'll be fine. And I was like, wow, I was used to Maria going through every single word I wrote and marking it up, and the manuscript would come back and it would look like slashed.
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+[42:07] Reduce you to to your your your your your lowest, your lowest level. Absolutely it's breaking you down. It would break you down. It was super interesting to me that having worked with her for well, she bought my first book 35, 36 years ago. And so then um I didn't do anything with her for 10 years after that because we were just getting started in our restaurants, and I put all my um focus on that were well for about eight years, and then I I wrote my second book 10 years that came out 10 years after the first.
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+[42:39] And um it was so surprising to me that she would look at everything that I wrote as though um it it like I don't know whether she never retained the knowledge, but she always wanted me to explain everything really clearly, and I would say Maria, you've taught I've I you know I've written about this already before, and she'd go, now remind me what that is again, and I was like, Oh, I'd want to pull out my hair, but that actually is what made the books really good is that she was coming at everything with this sort of new perspective um every time, and it was just fascinating to work with her. I I you know, I I know a lot of people had um knockdown drag out fights with her. We never did. Um, I know. And I you know, I don't know.
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+[43:35] I mean, well, first of all, well, Rick, you were Rick, you were her favorite author, and she and she she would let me know that all the time. I don't know. She would remind me. She would remind me like constantly about about what an amazing author you were. Jim, she had a favorite author every year.
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+[43:55] I love you all. Whoever turned in their manuscript on time with good recipes was the favorite author. Yeah, I believe that. But but I can say Alex, I'm I'm I think you're probably lucky you didn't have siblings to um to that she was she would have pit you guys against each other. I think, you know, for me honestly, peep like people hounded me for years.
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+[44:19] Why haven't you written a book? And I said, if you know my mother, you'll know why. I've never written a book. I was never going to write one. And finally I wrote one and I only left it in front of her when it was already published.
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+[44:34] And she just said, Wow. I had her babysit Eva and I left the book on the table and she said, Really? So you didn't want me to read it. And I said it would have never gotten published um if you had read one word. Rick, your first book was Authentic Mexican.
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+[44:49] Is that right? Yeah, that's right. We I tell you I know what the cover of your book looks like. Like burned in my brain for life because my mother agonized over your book jacket. My mother agonized over all books, really, but that book jacket and the message, sh I think she felt like you two were entered in a relationship where you were exploring a new topic and new territory.
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+[45:14] And I think sh she would always say to me, Rick knows so much about what he's working on, what he's doing, his subject. He's a master of his subject, and I want him to explain it all to everyone so they can understand. And that's gonna take a lot of remedial, I think was the word she used. Talk about what every little thing was and meant and how to use it. Because I think she felt the ingredients and the curating of the recipes was so unusual.
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+[45:42] However, simple the cooking ended up actually being. Yeah. I think that she she wasn't it it she didn't have a natural affinity toward it, which was actually to my benefit because it gave me it really forced me to be able to bring things alive in a completely clear way so that people could understand it. I mean, she taught without her, I would be nowhere in the cookbook world because she really taught me how to write. How'd you get with her, Rick?
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+[46:14] Um, it was just uh one of those crazy happenstance things. She had published Barbara Trapp and somebody else um that did really serious books. And um I had through a friend of mine, actually um uh Martha Rose Shulman, who writes for the New York Times a lot now, um Martha had introduced me to her age, and she had just published her first book, and uh through that agent, um I we we put the manuscript, well, as much of the manuscript as I had in front of Maria. And I'll I'll never forget going to New York the first time to meet Maria, and I was of course scared to death. Um because this was like nine 1985, and she took Dean and me to a to a an Indian restaurant, like in the 30s someplace, and uh and drank a martini.
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+[47:12] I'll never forget it, and drank a martini. And I was like, oh my god, if I have any alcohol, I might just fall in a heap on the floor. And um, so we talked about things, and I couldn't, I I I it was a super strained um conversation. And I thought, oh, she's gonna hate she'd already signed it by that point, but she I thought she's gonna hate me. And but the one thing that she kept saying is, you know how to do your research.
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+[47:44] You know how to you're this is what I'm after is somebody that can do the research. And because we had both um been in graduate school and learned and knew how to do research, she was one of the very few people that would actually like support people like me. And honestly, without her, I don't know where I would be. Oh wow. Well, you should know.
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+[48:09] I mean, she just you're right when you say she didn't have an affinity. And I I don't know, I don't want to say she disliked. Not having an affinity and disliking are not the same thing. Right. But she also we we didn't cook, she didn't cook the your food at home ever.
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+[48:27] My father wouldn't have liked that kind of food. And by the way, just so you know, my mother would not make anything, my father didn't like, so I didn't we didn't eat avocados or peanut butter or anything my father didn't like, anchovies. If my father didn't like it, it just didn't exist. And I think you know that my Mexican food, the way you are and we're cooking it. Oh, that was just that was like may as well have been food that was dropped off from Mars.
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+[48:57] Right. I I really thought that she react reacted to it or related to it in that way, but you know, that one Christmas, because we always spend Christmas, not this last one, but always spend Christmas in Oaxaca, and I convinced your mother and your father to come to Mexico and spend Christmas with us there. And it was so fascinating because I knew that neither one of them had much of an affinity for the food. And um, your father knew so much about all the history and the especially ecclesiastical history. And so we visited a ton of um uh churches and cathedrals and stuff like that.
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+[49:39] And it was so remarkable to just see the two of them kind of come alive during that time. And and and then I think your mom said to me at the end of our our trip, oh my god, we had no idea what we were getting into, and we wouldn't trade this for the world or whatever. You know, I mean, it was just that the suddenly I could see that she could see me in in the midst of that culture, and this is what I was bringing to people through the books. Totally. Oh, so great to hear this.
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+[50:14] Jim, how'd she get with you? Um I'm trying to remember. Um, so the New York Times published that article. I think 2006 or something like that. This is the Bitman, the Bitman article.
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+[50:30] Yeah, yeah. And then I remember when that came out. I'm so happy that you just referred to it as that article, and we knew all of us knew what you were talking about. Yes, the Bitman, the Bitman article. Like how you didn't you didn't use the Bitman word, you're just like the article of the P article.
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+[50:50] And uh, and then I ended up hiring a an agent, which was Janice Deneau. And Janice, I don't know if Janice is on this call too, because she was such good friends with Maria and had such um uh like held Maria in such high esteem. Um and knew her so I mean like like us, we knew her very well. Um but she um uh she I guess began, I guess, uh after we had written a proposal for the book, um, my my co-author, Rick, Rick Flast, um she ended up um uh you know putting it up for bid, and you know, obviously I I I did not go with uh I I I I I went with what what would have been the best uh the best uh uh uh editor as opposed to the highest bid, I believe. Um I remember that.
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+[51:48] And um, you know, I'm I'm glad that we um we did that, you know. I mean the book recently has gone through its fifteenth reprint, which isn't bad. Great for a bread book, like cocktail books. She told me bread books don't sell. Yeah.
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+[52:03] And and kind of and to kind of echo what what Rick was saying, that you know, she really had this affinity for things that eat that she wasn't necessarily that interested in, but she she kind of would uh almost like try to have this sense of the the book or the the written word or the thing that you produced, the the whole book, not just the words in it, but the photographs, everything, the jacket, as some sort of like testament or some type of of of thing you leave behind. Um and she kind of I mean she made me very aware of of of that as well. Um I don't know whether she you know baked bread at home. I mean uh uh Alex you'd have to say whether she did or not. Um well we started eating your bread.
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+[53:00] Uh-huh. And that and that my mother would have never been interested in you. Uh obviously. Yeah. We started eating your bread and she brought it home, and I said, This bread gets stuck in the back of your teeth in the best way.
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+[53:15] And she would say, right, the crust and can people make this at home? She would always say that about you. Can people do this? Well, she was I think she's nervous and fearful that people would think it was something you buy and not something you could actually make yourself. Yeah.
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+[53:31] Um, and I said, I think you're gonna get him with your help, you're gonna get him to articulate how. Yeah, I think that but like what Rick was saying, like it's it's so important that that an author tries to explain even at the you know, or over explain or explain it in the most direct way possible, so that like anyone would get it, not just like not the audience that's already like ready to whatever bake bread at home, but but I mean, as I think uh we used to call the the avatar the nickname of the avatar was something like Susie Topeka. Like, imagine this person in the middle of the country, somewhere in the middle of the country, or Johnny Topeka, who picks up the book and and and has to read it and and you know obtain pleasure from it. You know, because at you know at the end of the day when you when you you know the aha moment with a a cookbook recipe is you you take the the thing that you're making or you labored over or didn't labor over out of the stove and it's amazing. And then and then and then everything else that you you did to get there you know was worth it you know and I and I think that if a book at least with cookbooks if they don't do that then obviously uh you know it's I mean they're not really gonna have a life after you know what I think she took credit for in your book Jim was the word no work on the cover.
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+[55:08] Yeah she's like she's like that sold thousands of books. Yeah. Yeah yeah she was she was really aware of that too that like like how the the mass market would view things. And she was really kind of she was really she opened my eyes up to a lot of a new way of seeing what it is that I was doing and what it is that that that people do. And and again from the perspective of a publisher from the perspective of you know her office overlooking the New York public library which can't can't get a a better office location for a publisher, a book uh an editor that is than than that, you know um there was something you know really beautiful about that you know her where her office was in relationship to the library I I found, you know, as a novice.
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+[56:03] I think here's the thing. My mom was such a so high functioning, honestly, and so smart, and she w curated a um like a pick the expert. You know, she would always say to me, he really knows about this, or she really knows. She was only interested in the true expert who had done the work. That's the only kind of person that ever appealed to my mother.
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+[56:28] And she would sort of sniff out the phonies or sniff, you know, weed out her idea of someone who wasn't gonna report for class on time. But then even though she picked the expert and there was there were all these high-level conversations with all of you, she wanted it to be explained in the books in the simplest of terms and laid out so simply that anybody could be be invited in to the book. And I think it's kind of interesting that we're all talking about how she was basically Darth Vader, but somehow she wanted everybody to come to the party on the Death Star once the book was done. Don't you think? Yes, well, I I like to look, I used to look, yes, but I yes, I would say she wanted to extract the essence of the idea that you were trying to put forth so that everyone could get it.
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+[57:18] And I think that was the hardest thing, at least for me to do or or grasp, and you know, that just to kind of like you know, not speaking in tongues, but speaking in a language that people can get. Um I I I used to compare her not necessarily to Darth Vader, although that is a really good analogy. I used to I look at her as you know, remember the character that Hugh Laurie used to play on that TV show House? Yes. I used to view her as a that same character, but as a book editor.
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+[57:53] That's brilliant. And that's and yeah, and she, you know, basically the walking, eating, drinking, the work of that she was working on. And then all of a sudden I would imagine her in the middle of the night figuring out what needed to be done, and then writing you the next morning or calling you or asking for a meeting to find a way to of maybe trying to convince the author to maybe change the slightly their direction, you know. That's so great. She would she yes, I think she teased out the really clear explanation from the brightest in every topic, don't you think?
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+[58:33] Mm-hmm. I think, you know, in that sense, I think she was really sort of a true um, you know, academic, you know, a s a scientist almost in that in that everything that went into any of her books, um, and and this is true of all the books, all I mean, uh I haven't read all obviously all the books she's edited, but uh everyone that I know of, um, there's no there's nothing extreme, there's no throwaway lines, you know, there's nothing that isn't backed up by an explanation. Um and I found that working with her also, she was never afraid um to change her mind when there was new, you know, when when when there was a new idea or when there was new evidence, you know. So she you you could be going down one path and and and working on a book in one way, and then suddenly if she had um new information presented to her, if you had a new chapter to turn in, she wasn't afraid to completely throw out everything that we had just worked so hard on um to to retool it and and break it down again and and and come up with a better approach. Um so you know, in in that sense, she was always always always um willing to go back on her um on her own previous decisions, um, and and of course to challenge you um as the author, um, whether whether you were presenting things in the best way possible.
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+[59:40] Yeah. Was it always for the better? That's what I want to know. When you say uh sort of she would admit or throw out, do you think it was always for the better? Well, I I think we all well, I mean, I I think we always ended up landing on the best idea, or at least as close an approximation to the best idea as we could.
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+[59:56] So, you know, sometimes we would go down paths that we weren't sure of. I mean, she would always act like she was sure of them. But once we got to once once she realized, you know what, this isn't working. Um, that you know, that that's that was a phrase she would use a lot. This isn't working.
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+[1:00:09] Um, and and it could it could come after weeks of work. Um, so so you know, it was the the decisions we made um in the process all weren't always for the better. Um, and but but that was what was great about her is that she would always be willing to say, you know what, this isn't working. Um, and and and wasn't afraid to say it, you know. She would she would say it a lot, um, even after even after you put in all the work.
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+[1:00:33] I I find I I said to my I hundreds of millions of times, I'd say, Mom, what are you doing? And she'd say, I'm daydreaming about my books. My mother must have said that to me a hundred million times. That was very clear that she lived in those books until they were, you know, finally uh off of her desk completely. She really lived in the middle of them and really spent a lot of time with them and giving feedback and so forth.
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+[1:01:02] Oh, so I mean going back to what you were saying, did she do something uh like uh is things you disagree with? It's like uh the one thing I really disagree with her, where she like you know didn't bend and like I was like fine, we'll bend was on the title of the of my book twice, right? So she chose liquid intelligence as the title. Which I think is is smart. And the tagline, the the art and science of the perfect cocktail.
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+[1:01:26] I was like, Maria, there is no such thing as perfection. Like my whole shtick is there is no such thing as perfection. She's like, that's the title. And I was like, okay. Uh and uh I she was right.
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+[1:01:38] It's I'm sure it's sold more as a result of the title. So who am I? You know what I mean? She really agonized over that title, let me tell you. Oh my god, that was a rough one.
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+[1:01:49] But she I remember her being feeling ferocious also, which is not shocking to anybody on this call. Um, you should just know if you didn't know that as her child, um, boy, did she love you all and the work that you did and admired you all so much. I think you all represented something. You know, my mother, I always say, like, my mother was the reason I became a chef was because my mother intellectualized cooking, and and the net result of my childhood was my desire to go out and actually cook. You know, it was like she began the sentence, she began with a phrase which was the intellectual delving and sharing of cooking, and I finished it by actually going and cooking chicken 70 million chicken breasts to substantiate her idea.
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+[1:02:43] So you should just know that I think you all represented something she admired so much, and whatever whatever nasty things she said to you, she meant every word, and whatever loving things she said, she meant every word in equal measure. You know, uh Alex, I once had an interaction with her on the other side when I was the enemy. Did you know this? Did I tell you this story? No.
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+[1:03:07] No. So uh Kenji, you brought up how fierce she was about defending her authors and her books. And we've and we've all talked about um how uh we've all talked about how she would choose like uh like niches that didn't exist yet and kind of like like make them exist and charcuterie, which came up was one of them. No one had written a book on charcuterie. And ruleman, Polson, I don't think had written a book yet.
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+[1:03:31] Ruleman had done um, you know, his uh Soul of the Chef book, which I sold infinity copies or something like this, right? It wasn't that his book, and um so they wrote the charcuterie book, and there were no technical, there was no books on how to do charcuterie. There was Grigson's book, which wasn't really a how to, and um it didn't exist. And I was writing for Food Arts magazine at the time, you know, a lowly, you know, whatever, you know, 20 something year old guy, or you know, uh, and my job was to write about charcuterie in restaurants and for food arts, which was anyway. So, like I had the the galleys or the proofs, right?
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+[1:04:05] And I'd read through it and I had some questions about like technical recipes because I was gonna you know recommend it to chefs and whatnot, the charcuterie book. So like I didn't expect the editor of the book to call me, but she she called me, and oh my god, when you were perceived as her enemy, which any critic, by the way, of one of her books had anything critical to say, was the enemy. Oh my god. Oh my god. If she could have sent nanobots through the freaking telephone lines to like gouge out my ears and eyes and like you know, shred me into and I wasn't saying anything bad because you know it was an important, super important book, you know what I mean?
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+[1:04:45] But I was like, uh, you know, I was like, well, this salt ratio and this, but you know how I am, people. Anyone who's listening to this show knows how I am. You know, like all these little things. And I thought she was gonna reach through the phone and rip my head off. I was like, and and I remembered her.
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+[1:04:59] And that's maybe one of the reasons why I was so scared out of my mind when uh I was meeting up with her for uh Nastasia forced me to meet with her because she was gonna because Maria forced me to write a book. So yeah, I know what it's like to be on the other side of that equation of her fiercely defending her authors. That charcuterie book was a book that uh she carried around with her in her little backpack emotionally for years and years. She really worked hard on that one. Again, not a subject.
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+[1:05:29] My mother, by the way, when I was growing up, made a lot of pr pâtées and stuff. When I was a young when I was really little, she always had pattes in the fridge, weighted down with bricks and she was sort of a novice at Charcuterie when I was really little. And um, so I think when that book came up and the topic came up, it probably I don't know, she was that was really a tough one for her to get through. Um and I know that Michael Roman didn't mince words. I know that I I I don't know, I don't think they were on each other's Christmas lists for some time.
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+[1:06:04] But the net result, like you could no one could argue with the results um and the impact that book had. You know, m I would see Michael at a party and he would cross the room, you know, to to say to me, like, How is your mother? How's she doing? You know, it was sort of like uh it was like uh Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, you know. It was it was gonna be, but it wasn't gonna be always so pretty, and yet it was also gonna be beautiful.
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+[1:06:31] So it looks like we're running out of time. You want to just go around the go around the room and and uh share something on the on the way out. By the way, thanks all of you for uh being on the book. Thank you, especially Alex are coming on. Yeah.
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+[1:06:44] Yeah. So uh yeah, Dave, if you want to go around, it might be best since you've got a list of names in front of you to like call them out because everybody probably has different orders and my kids. Oh yeah. All right. Okay.
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+[1:07:00] Uh well, Harold, why don't you start us out? Okay. Well, um as I said, I didn't really have the chance to work with her, but I really enjoyed every chance I had to chat with her. And the last time was um unfortunately almost 10 years ago, I did a a talk at the uh natural history museum, and she came and uh we walked from the museum down Central Park West, uh beautiful spring night uh in into Midtown, just talking about all kinds of stuff. And um that's it it was just wonderful.
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+[1:07:42] And you know, we parted and said, you know, keep in touch and um yeah, so that it um I I wish I had more memories to share, but but that's the one that sticks with me. The last time I spoke with her was about a month, maybe a month or so ago. And I guess she was in the hospital, if I'm not mistaken. She sounded really kind of happy, but maybe medicated because she was kind of a little loopy, like, yeah, I mean it's okay. It was good.
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+[1:08:19] So I didn't realize she was, you know, having I didn't know. I mean, I wish I'd, you know. And it she seemed to be dealing with the, you know, the crappy, crummy situation that we were all in as well as could be expected. Um I I, you know, the only one memory that I have was that you know, we did have a meeting one time in her office. Um, you know, I have so many memories of Maria from photo shoots to, you know, sometimes uh, you know, we had at the beginning when we first started establishing a working relationship.
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+[1:08:55] I remember I had we handed her a manuscript that we thought was good. She had sent it back, you know, basically deleting the entire thing. Um marking up every single page, uh, eliminating whole chapters. I mean, you know, like this is not the direction. This is no, you're not doing this.
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+[1:09:16] You know, we had written basically like kitchen confidential from the from the point of view of a bread baker. Umitially, and she's like, That's not the book you're writing. This is the book you're writing. And I remember having a confront with her about something to do with that, where she ended up crying. We it was like a screaming match, just screaming at me in that meeting room in Norton, the top of her lungs.
+
+[1:09:47] And and I and it was just one of these moments where, you know, I mean, I I I love, I truly loved her. I mean, she was a a really great person, but I also, you know, in my my youth and my arrogance, you know, I kind of like wasn't really understanding what she represented um and how much she really cared. And that, you know, at the end of the day, that, you know, she's really understood her subject, not the subject necessarily uh that um that I was trying to express but the her subject being the publishing world and books and how you know almost like um a Broadway play it's like you can't put the book if the book isn't doesn't go out perfect then you you know it didn't didn't didn't matter what your intentions were in writing the book and it you know it's almost you know she she took it that seriously and I think what she was really great at was uh you know kind of like focusing an author focusing a writer to to really get their point across you know I've got a photograph of Maria that's like at the last photo shoot I have a photograph of her that's like literally seven feet it's like six feet by four feet tall of her sitting in our apartment freezing because I don't remember why we ended up having the uh the apartment was somewhat cold um but it but but it's it's you know it it it's I might need to find a home for this photograph Alex I don't know if you want it but it it really is it really of course I do yeah it's beautiful it's beautiful it is it is the essence of your mom you know so Jim for the people out there if they want to see kind of process and exasperation and kind of what she could bring like by forcing you to bring your best why don't you tell a quick story about the that iconic photo of you with the bread on your face. Oh, I that was just me goofing around with the photographer. I mean, she she just liked the, I mean, we uh, you know, she put me together with the photographer Squire Fox.
+
+[1:12:00] Um, and I another thing I can be grateful for, um, you know, I I Squire and I have become you know dear friends over the years, and I would never I wouldn't have that relationship, that friendship, um, if if Maria hadn't introduced us. And you know, he was, I think the moment doing work with Tyler Florence or something like that. You know, I mean, she's kind of like, you know, you gotta use this photographer. He's great, he's fantastic. You have to use him.
+
+[1:12:27] He's the best. He's he's the person you're gonna use. And she had, you know, like almost like an iron will that if she wanted some you to do something, you were gonna do it. Even if you even if you ended up arguing with her, you were gonna do it. You know, you know, and you know, I'm I I and I have to say it's like, you know, you know, uh he he he was a an incredible gift because we we we're we're we're deep deep friends as a result of that of that introduction.
+
+[1:12:58] And we've done all three books together, you know. So that dough on the head thing was more like um just kind of like whimsy in play. But she saw when she saw the contact sheet, she was like, brilliant. Yeah, I think she would say we often don't know, Jim, with you, where you begin and the loaf of bread ends. Yeah, exactly.
+
+[1:13:23] Well, yeah, sometimes I feel like a blob of duck. Don't we all especially after 11 months in Corinth, uh 11 months and working under these conditions, yes, we'll call it. Uh Kenji. Yeah, you know, Maria, so the last time I saw her in person, um, we've talked on the phone a few times since then, but the last time I saw her in person was um uh right after my daughter was born, um, so maybe three and a half years ago or so. Um, and I, you know, um she she we we met in person because she insisted on on meeting so that she could give me a gift for my daughter, which is a this beautiful um blanket that my daughter still uses.
+
+[1:14:00] Um and you know, to me, it she she was so she was so happy that that I was happy, you know. She was so happy that that I had just had my daughter and and how happy we were about it, and and she was still you know, riding high on how well the food lab was doing. Um, and you know, her telling me that she was proud of me, it it it it it really it there's nobody else in the world who other you know, maybe even more than my my own mother who's who's whose approval meant that much, you know, and and and whose um you could tell that she she felt about her um her writers um and the people that she loved and the people that she worked with. Um she she loved them, you know, and she and she was so passionate about them and so supportive of them. Um and it it it was it's it was weird to see because you know, at the beginning of my relationship with her, it's like here's this person who you know is tough and you know is honest and you know is you know doesn't mince words is um is someone who you're probably going to butt heads with.
+
+[1:15:07] But um that's you know that that the fact that she's so passionate about everything um means that when you finally do um become close with her, it's it's it's as close of a relationship as you're ever going to have with with another person. Um, and and I and i and i knew, you know, like after a couple years of working her with her that she was going to have my back um as much as any family member would um no you know that that that winning her trust and and having her believe in me um was just you know it's is very very meaningful um much more than any other person I've ever worked with um and um yeah you know it's it's it's even now you know even now with her gone it it still feels like when I'm when I'm I know when I'm gonna be right you know what as I'm writing another book now but it is that um sh you know she's going to I I still is I still feel like I'm I'm I'm seeking her um I I want to make her proud you know that I um that her approval um that that she's still she's still um looking at me and and making sure that I'm doing the right thing um it's it's it's a feeling that you don't I don't I don't really have with many other with many other people um other than I you know other than my own family and a few very close friends. Um so um yeah I don't I don't know if everyone if everyone gets that feeling but that that's that's how I feel about it. Of course it's it's her defining the standard you had for yourself already and her she's matching it. And the only way to match the standard is to show you to illustrate that she loves you and even if that love wasn't expressed always in the prettiest way she leaves you with the standard and you and you just keep using it.
+
+[1:16:51] It doesn't dissipate with time. Mm-hmm. Yeah exactly yeah um I I I've got a couple of things that come to my mind, and one of them is actually uh way back in like 1986, we had turned our manuscript in, and um the basically what she she didn't respond for six weeks, and I was devastated. I'd worked on this book for five years, and I was and I didn't know what to think, but I didn't really know her or anything. And I thought, what if she just tells me that she's not gonna to publish the book?
+
+[1:17:28] And finally I got I think a letter from her, if I'm not mistaken. And basically the gist of the the letter was this book needs to be cut in half. And that was the most devastating thing anybody had ever said to me, and the most perfect thing that anybody had ever said to me. So I started the work of basically, you know, condensing it and um and and going through the manuscript, and that lesson taught me the most important lesson of my life, and that is how to be succinct, how to be careful with the words that I'm saying. To I always ask myself, do people really need to know this?
+
+[1:18:16] Or is this extraneous and would actually get in the way of people understanding things? And over the years, having the opportunity to work with her over and over again, I started writing for her, literally writing for her. And so I I could say to you all that every word I have ever written in a cookbook has always been written for Maria. Um, because I thought she was so insightful in what needed to be said that um, and sometimes I would write something and I will go, okay, she's gonna she's gonna flag this. I know she's gonna flag it, but I want to put it in there anyway, and then when she would flag it, I would go, okay, cut it.
+
+[1:19:03] You know, I mean, it was like I had already had the conversation with her, but for some reason I felt like it needed to be in there, and um I I swear she taught me how to write, and I I am forever ever, ever grateful for that because it was a super hard lesson to learn the first time through, but not a lesson that um I I didn't need to know. And um, I I will say that I I thought she was just brilliant at being able to pick things out that were positive and things that were negative, and so I she really she really taught me. I and I even told her that um, like towards some of the last books that I did with her, and I would say to her, you know, I've written this entire thing for you. So um I could tell you there's places you're gonna flag, but most of it's gonna be okay. I can tell you that just handing it in to you right now, and that was really um uh a fabulous thing, I think, because I think she knew then what a huge contribution she had made, not just to my production of books and stuff, but to my life.
+
+[1:20:15] Wow. That was mutual. Nastasi, you want to say something? Oh, I just loved her so much. I really, really loved and looked forward to our very long lunches, and you know, there's few people in the world that are truly themselves and authentically themselves, and I'm so happy to know her because she is one of those people, and I I will always aspire to be as truthful and as authentic as she is.
+
+[1:20:43] Um, so she's a real inspiration. And I and I love most of all that she scared the death out of you, Dave. So well, uh, I mean, I think, you know, that's probably the most, I mean, like that that's basically in a nutshell, Nastasia, like her, like the authenticity is amazing. Um, I'm gonna give uh I'm gonna give Alex actually the last word. I'll say something and I'll give Alex the last word.
+
+[1:21:08] Alex, when you're done, just say cooking issues and then it's over. That's how the show ends. You just say the cooking issues and it's over. Um, but um thanks again, uh, you know, Rick Rick Bayless, Jim Leahy, uh uh Harold McGee, uh Kenji, uh we're all well like uh Alex, obviously. I got everyone, did I miss anyone that we were talking to?
+
+[1:21:28] No, I got everyone, I think. Um I really appreciate you guys coming on. I just thought it was important uh for people to who never got a chance to work with her to kind of understand how important she was, not just to, you know, not just uh to us, but you know to to everyone who's ever read a book that she helped bring into existence. And I think uh you have a uh it's it's there's this fiction that authors do things kind of on their own and they don't. Uh and she just had such an outsized uh impact um on the world.
+
+[1:22:08] And you know, I uh I'm a huge consumer of content and information, uh, and um so much of it is garbage, is so bad. And so uh, you know, the fact that she brought like so much like amazing, well thought out things into the world, so much content into the world, and that she cared so deeply about it. Um, and this is something that I think doesn't really it's not that it existed everywhere because the world has always been garbage, but um I think it's even rarer now to find anyone. No one could approach what you know the way she was and the way she handled things, but um, you know, I I I I see the world getting further away from her ideals um in terms of the quality of content. And um I just think the world is a worse place without Maria.
+
+[1:23:06] Wow. Um I'm trying not to cry. I wish that my mother could have heard all this, but I'm sure she would have waved it off and said, Oh, don't be silly. Even though you weren't that articulate, you would have made it some way on your own without me. She would probably, you know, like she would describe your shortcoming and then give you a huge compliment.
+
+[1:23:32] So you didn't know where you ever stood. But um one of my favorite things was my mom gave um someone who didn't know my mother at all at the Institute of Culinary Education asked her to come in and give a talk about book writing. And I was a teacher on the faculty at the time. Um, and so she gave this sort of seminar on, you know, writing a book and what that would be like. And she stood and they mic'd her, you know, they put a microphone on her and she was walking around the room talking, and the room was full of students, and I was there.
+
+[1:24:06] Um, and she was just talking about books and whatever else, and she um this young, uh bright-eyed, bushy-tailed student said, 'You know, I I really want to write a book.' I think, and my mother said, Hold on a minute, I have to go to the bathroom. I mean, this is in front of like 200 people, I swear to God. She just walked out of the room with her microphone on, went to the bathroom. We heard her peeing. Everybody heard her peeing because the mic was still on.
+
+[1:24:35] And she came all the way back into the room and said, Okay, I'm ready to listen to you. Now, what were you saying? And the student said, I want to write a book, but I really don't know what about. And my mom said, Well, then don't write a book for God's sake. Don't waste our time.
+
+[1:24:48] And she turned and walked away. And I thought, yeah, okay. Like, I don't even know where mom, I work here, and you're embarrassing me. Like, I don't even know how that covers the eighth of it. But there's something so endearing about the trueness of every single moment from the peeing to the blunt response.
+
+[1:25:08] Um, you should just know that she loved you all so much. I I grew up, um, and even in this part of my life, I know so much about all of you, above and beyond how I came to know all of you myself on my own. I I know a lot about all of you. Um, and I want to thank you for giving my mother a purpose and a use for her great quirky gift. Uh, and with that said, ah, editor issues, and cooking issues.
+
+[1:25:40] Thanks, Alex. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:25:59] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:26:23] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U dot S T slash H R N. This week on Meet and Three, we continue our series on global food trade.
+
+[0:50] We've covered sugar and spice. Next up, bites. Servers would come around with little carts or trays carrying these things. Um they would cry out what they were uh providing. So you guys here are my young son when he was three or four years old, referred to the theme sumplaces as screaming places.
+
+[1:25] Tune in to Meet and Three, available wherever you get your podcasts. With the COVID thing, we're usually pretty close to noon, right, Nastasia? Yeah, we are. Mm-hmm. We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez back on uh the sunny shores of uh Connecticut.
+
+[1:57] How are you doing? Good. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh they've re repaired your your window that got blasted out by the last storm.
+
+[2:05] However, they replaced it with Milky Plexiglass. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was a previously clear window, I assume.
+
+[2:16] Yeah. Yeah, it is. It was made out of glass. Yeah. Which, you know.
+
+[2:21] Yeah. Okay. Well, Nastasia, on the plus side, at least it's not like a view of the water. It's not an important window. Right.
+
+[2:29] Yes. I know. People, it is in fact a view of the water. It's an impressive. It's the only reason.
+
+[2:35] So basically, Nastasia has like a New York sized apartment in Connecticut. However, it is right on the water. But but without the window, I don't know. You wouldn't know. Wouldn't know.
+
+[2:49] No. You just wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. That's the problem. You wouldn't know.
+
+[2:52] We got uh Matt, you're back in the uh the island of uh road and the all of that. He said he's there. Forever is a long time. It's a mighty small state to say you're gonna be in it forever. Oh, I mean, yeah, not only that, but I've actually like I'm I I mean I'm gonna be on this island.
+
+[3:10] I'm on a quidneck island within Rhode Island, so I'm like, it's even smaller than you think. Explain a quidneck to me. It sounds like a clam variety, like a delicious clam, but maybe make a a big one that you would use for stuffies or chowder. What's a quidneck? Uh I have just gotten so used to every single word that sounds like that being a Native American tribe that I didn't even think to ask that question.
+
+[3:33] Yeah. I assume it was the local tribe. Yeah. You know, my favorite uh Rhode Island name is Musquamacet. That's a good one.
+
+[3:43] Misquamicate. Um so uh yeah, uh by the way, out there, uh hope everyone's doing uh okay. Like we're right now are like strangely, our weather is fine. The rest of the country is hosed. Uh so I hope you know anyone that is losing power gets their power back and everything goes alright.
+
+[4:04] I hope, you know, if you're growing citrus in Texas, for instance, that your crop isn't completely ruined because they're harvesting, like all the grapefruits are being harvested right now. They're only like halfway through the harvest. And I I think the storm hit so hard and like so fat, they was weren't used to like this level of stuff. And so I don't even think they they could go out and do their frost mitigation stuff for like the grapefruits and the valencies that they have growing down there in Texas. So uh, you know, people first.
+
+[4:33] I hope the people are okay, and then after that, I hope people's uh, you know, agricultural livelihood isn't getting um destroyed, but it doesn't look great for some people, so anyway. Um yeah, anything else going on with you guys? Anything uh anything good? Anything or should I just dive right into questions? No, just dive.
+
+[4:53] Just dive. I did something fun. You want to hear it? Yeah. All right.
+
+[4:59] So uh oh, for uh you know, for Valentine's Day, uh I did baked potato and the A5 Wagyu. That was delicious. I did my standard, but don't even ask me anymore how to do steak. The answer for ribeye, and I'm only talking ribeye now. The answer for a ribeye is about 45 degrees, sorry, 54 degrees Celsius until just until the center gets up to 54.
+
+[5:22] At which point I immediately drop that sucker down to 52 and then let it ride, and then just let it ride, you know, like uh hours, a couple hours more. And then uh, you know, you just gotta drop it down far enough for for the sear. So the because the A5 cost so much, it wasn't so thick. Uh I dropped it all the way down to about 40. You know, I just pulled it out and let it come down like almost to 40 Celsius before I I did the the sear off.
+
+[5:50] But it's a good technique for steak. I recommend you use it. Um, but that's not what's fun that I did. Uh so uh now this is not about the bread baking, okay. That is but you know, everyone knows I've been doing the the bread as all a lot of us have during COVID.
+
+[6:05] I know it bothers Nastasia, but it's not about that. So I had to have the bread, right? But like you know how you know how when you like get fresh bread you have to wait for it to slice it, right? Because it's too hot. You know what I'm talking about?
+
+[6:16] Yeah. So yeah. So if you slice it too soon, like it uh it gets all gummy and nasty. It's like all huge problems. Like you gotta let the starch set up and like even for like for whole wheat for rye, you gotta let it set for like for like hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.
+
+[6:32] But anyway, so the bread's about to come out of the oven, and I realize it's late, and everyone's gonna want to eat. I'm cranky because as you know, Nastasia, as you know, I've been I'd be blunching, so as a bluncher, like I'm getting like rancid, more rancid than normal around dinner time. You know what I mean? This is Valentine's Day or this is last night? No, no, this is like this is like uh a couple nights ago.
+
+[6:52] It's like uh like Saturday or something like that. So, anyways, so like it's uh it's getting time, it's getting time, and then I remember reading that uh, you know, people use a vacuum to cool off bread more quickly, right? So I'm like, I'm gonna use a I'm gonna use a vacuum to cool off bread. Now the theory, folks, is that you know, as you um as you suck a vacuum, you're lowering the temperature at which water boils. But as the water boils, right, you're boiling off water, but that boiling takes a lot of heat to accomplish, not temperature, heat.
+
+[7:27] So what's happening is heat is leaving the bread rapidly, like really rapidly, and cooling it down. Uh, and I was like, eh, uh uh, I'll give it a try, because I've read about it, and you know, whatever, it might hurt to keep in qualities, whatever. So now remember, this is a crusty-style whole wheat bread. So here's the first mistake, and I'll never do this again. I just took I have a you know small commercial vacuum machine at my house, which is why, by the way, I've never tested out any of these non-commercial vacuum machines, because until someone sends me one to test, I have no reason to go buy one because I have a small commercial machine at home.
+
+[7:59] Anyways, so I take all of the plate commercial vacuum machines are like big chambers. Mine is small, but you know, chamber, and it's full of these plastic plates to take up extra room, right? So you I pulled all the plates out, I I opened the oven door, literally opened the oven door, took the bread directly out of the oven and blap, put it right into the vacuum machine and closed the lid and the oil starts, you know, the the oil pump comes on, and then all of a sudden everything fogs over. So all of a sudden I start seeing all of these specks and dots. I'm like, what's going on?
+
+[8:35] Like something awful is happening. You know, in those horror movies when they're inside that room and the fog sprays all over everything, and then you kind of just see the handprint hit the window and wipe down, and you know something terrible is going on? Yeah, it was like that on the inside of my vacuum machine. When I finally stopped it, I let it run for like a minute. I finally uh I opened it.
+
+[8:53] The entire half bread, half fly. Well, no, no, here's the thing. Well, yeah, I wish. That would have been amazing. Uh no, uh, so the good news is, uh well, the bad news is like my oil was completely contaminated.
+
+[9:06] The inside of my uh machine was completely coated in a fine moist powder of sesame seeds and wheat bran and part, it was it was a complete and utter vacuum machine disaster. So if I'm gonna do this again, I need to figure out a way to have that not happen in my vacuum machine. Uh it took hours to clean it. Anyways, but the bread, I want you to know, people, that like this radical kind of uh vacuum chilling, it did shatter the inside of the crust a little bit because I hit it real hard real fast. Uh and but I could literally directly from the 450 degree oven into the thing, and within a minute, I could pick up the bread.
+
+[9:48] It was cold enough to pick up in my hands. And the crust was the most shattering crust, the most like crunchy, shattering crust, but I hadn't evaporated that much stuff out of the crumb. So the crumb was still soft and moist, but it was the sickest, the best whole wheat bread crust I've ever produced. It was nuts. So I'm gonna experiment some more.
+
+[10:08] Yeah, yeah. So that's uh my vacuum machine trick uh trick of the week in review. Uh for those of you that don't know, it m it because it does uh evaporate some moisture, it may affect keeping qualities. There's some studies on the internet that say that it may also affect uh staling, it might stale faster. But when you're gonna bake a loaf and you want to eat it right now, right away, uh if you can figure out a way to have it not ruin your machine, you know, maybe good idea.
+
+[10:35] Yeah. Are you saying that it was just like e extraneous things that you would put on the exterior that caused the ruining of the machine? Like if if you hadn't put s any seeds over any kind or anything, it would have been fine. Well, I think it was violent enough that it like atomizes the wrong word, but the crust got so crunchy that I think like the the rapid evaporation, like literally popped little tiny yeah, like that. Bits of the cross would have come off had there been nothing else.
+
+[11:02] Yeah. I mean, I I could test this, but I mean, like, you know, my standard bread making technique is I do a relatively high hydration, like uh uh like around 80% hydration on a whole wheat dough, right? And then I do I do my my my you know forming it into a round and then I I just take a giant I take a stainless steel bowl and I fill it not fill it, but I I I fill it with sesame seeds, and then I just drop the just formed so I you know I I I mold the the I mold the the the bread on a wet board, right, so that it doesn't stick, and then I just take this like tacky wetish thing and then I drop it into the into the sesame seeds, flip it. So I have a ball that looks like a sesame seed can giant sesame seed candy. It's just all sesame.
+
+[11:50] And then I throw uh bran into my uh into my, you know, baskets, my raising baskets, and and throw it in. So my bread always has on the outside bran and sesame. So I could run a test where I don't do that, but uh, you know, I'm saying if you do if you have anything on the i outside, whether it's rice flour or anything, that sucker's gonna spray all over your vacuum machine in the most unpleasant way. But I'm wondering if I just stick it, like if I stick it inside of like a a bag, you know what I mean? Like some s maybe even a paper bag, one that can take the heat, you know what I mean, and then throw it in there, maybe the paper bag can take most of the hit, you know?
+
+[12:28] Mm-hmm. We'll find out. We find out. I will test again. I will let you know.
+
+[12:29] Uh we got we got a question in chat. Can we just let 'em jump to the front? Okay. I mean I want to see. Nastasia's got things to say about that, but they're here, they want to know.
+
+[12:42] That's good, right, Stu? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Alpha Romeo and Juliet, who I think is a new first first time caller. Uh any tips for crispy sweet potato fries. I've tried Pex SPL and breading, and I'm looking for other ideas.
+
+[13:01] Yeah. The Pectanex trick isn't gonna so the Pect Nex trick, any one of the all of the tricks, like pre-boiling, uh drying, the Pectanex, uh modernist cuisines, uh, ultrasonic, uh, McGillicutty that they do to it, these are all techniques to kind of mess with the surface of the of the fries to make it so that they give up their moisture and get crunchy uh before the inside of the fry gets dry and hollow, right? That's what that's all about. Problem on a sweet potato fry, because of all of the sugar, right? You can't it doesn't work, right?
+
+[13:36] It just doesn't work. So you can't really treat the surface of a sweet potato fry to make it good, let's say. So the the solution has to be some sort of coating on the outside. So uh breading might be a little bit intense, but there are people who do uh starch coatings, and the idea uh with I I think with a Nastasia, you like no, you don't like french fries, so you don't like sweet potato fries. What about you, Matt?
+
+[14:03] Uh sweet potato fries? I I like sweet potato fries, although I go for regular French fries over sweet potato fries most of the time. Right. But if you wanted to make a good sweet potato fry, I think the answer is going to be and you want it to look at as not breaded as possible. It's all going to be about uh the proper uh starch coating.
+
+[14:23] There really is no other way to there really is no other way to do it. I mean, I guess you could literally dehydrate the outside, but it's still you have an issue. You could do uh it no one can, I mean, I don't even know why I'm telling you this, unless you unless you have a uh the equipment already, it's not like you can go do vacuum frying. Vacuum frying might be another option because then you can turn the su uh temperature down such that you're not um scorching the sugar. But even so, it's hard without a a good starch coating.
+
+[14:50] So I would say just tune your starch coating to be better. All right? That makes sense, guys? Yes. Uh all right.
+
+[14:58] All right. Uh uh Brian Leonzo wrote in hey, uh, next week on the podcast, uh, can you say whether there's uh an actual difference between using a sugar cube and uh just using simple syrup in cocktails, I guess, other than the obvious dilution, which can be adjusted. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, like uh sugar cube, first of all, so if you're using a sugar cube, some people are doing a thing where and I don't know Nastasi, I've you ever had this presentation before where they they take this sugar cube and they they hit it with a like a dash of angostora bitters and they put it in the bottom of your flute and then they pour the you like that or dislike it?
+
+[15:33] Uh I I don't see the point. Oh, alright. Well, it means it adds a little bit of sugar, but it's mainly a visual thing. It's mainly if you like it. It's mainly if it if it if if it if it floats your boat.
+
+[15:44] You know what I'm saying? And a lot of people eh they like it. You know what I mean? Just from uh they like the whole ritual of it. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[15:50] But if you don't like the ritual of it, I don't really think there's a point. If you want your your champagne to be a little sweet, you'll add something sweet. I mean, I know you. You'll do what you like, which is good, by the way. Yeah.
+
+[15:58] Um, yeah. All right. Well, so like that's a different application. So we're not talking about that. I'm assuming when you say sugar cube, you mean any form of granulated sugar that you can smash up in the bottom of a gr of a glass.
+
+[16:09] So there's two reasons to do it. The people who like to do it, um, a lot of times they're mashing it into a citrus peel, and then they're they're doing kind of a rapid uh oleo there where they're trying to, you know, smash the um smash the citrus or whatever else, you know, could be an herb, such that they're using the the sugar as a grinding mechanism, right? And so there's that. And then uh typically also it doesn't dissolve all the way because it's very hard to dissolve uh sugar into high-proof ethanol. So uh the sugar tends to not dissolve, and so it will get kind of sweeter as you drink it.
+
+[16:48] Some people like this, I don't, right? So the advantage I could theoretically say in a drink like an old-fashioned, I could say this. I could say, hey, listen, you um when it is not very diluted yet, you don't need as much sugar, and then as it gets more diluted, you will need more sugar to have the same level of sweetness. That's true. Uh in practice, it doesn't work.
+
+[17:08] Um, you know, look, do it if you like it. Does that make sense? Uh is that enough? Do you need me to talk more on this? I don't think you need to talk more on it.
+
+[17:16] All right. Uh oh, by the way, uh, Nastasi, I don't know if you've been hearing things. Uh I I have been hearing people have been sending me, and I think maybe also I I've shared some with Nastasia, their own stories of uh Maria Guarna Shelley. And although most of them can't be shared on air, uh please send them to us because we enjoy them. Wouldn't you say that, Nastasia?
+
+[17:39] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We th we thoroughly enjoy them. And you know, someday Nastassi and I will have a completely unexpurgated uh show.
+
+[17:48] Well, these you can't just not share because they're uh not family, it's because some of the people are still alive, you know what I mean? So yeah, yeah, yeah. But but language is a problem, is what you're saying as well. Oh, really? You know, um, I mean, look, Maria did curse.
+
+[18:04] It's not that she didn't curse. Uh, but it's just that, like, her like when she wanted to be rough on someone, she didn't need to use curse words to do it. Yeah. Let's just put it that way. Yeah.
+
+[18:19] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed that uh these stories that people are sending me, and I think Nastasia does as well. So please continue to send them to me uh or to Nastasia. We do uh for as you know, we do talk to each other regularly, so you can just send it to one of us, right, Nastasia.
+
+[18:36] Yeah, I couldn't the the revelation last week that you had called up to talk about the uh what was it, a charcuterie book? Um like gotten the receiving end of that was uh yeah, I just yeah it made everything make sense. Well maybe you know, like in retrospect, maybe that's why I was so scared of her the whole time. You know what I mean? Uh yeah, sounds like it.
+
+[18:56] I don't know. Man, we could have gone on and on. It was a good group of people last week. Anyways, yeah, that's great. Um amazing to have Alex on the whole time.
+
+[19:05] We didn't even know Nastasi and I didn't even know if we were gonna oh by the way, John's not here. John is still with us, people. I didn't um we're not excluding John from the podcast today. He is on grand jury duty. That's why he's not here.
+
+[19:18] He's on grand jury duty. I'm assume he's listening on one earbud and ignoring whatever evidence is being presented. P.S. Could be an interesting case or what a case says because my man's gonna go to the Southern District of New York. So you're yeah, you're thinking like mob things?
+
+[19:37] What are you what do you got there? Oh, southern district. Oh, they they've oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[19:43] Anyway. I like how like your uh Rhode Island mind goes directly to uh mob. But anyway, Nastasia and I uh Nastasi and I didn't think we were gonna get Alex on like at all. So to have her the whole time was kind of amazing, I thought. Yeah.
+
+[19:56] She's great. Yeah. Um uh strange uh bird, strange bird indie uh wrote in uh about I think uh strange bird is the one who wrote in about the eggs. Remember the eggs and we all tested it and none of it works? Yeah.
+
+[20:14] The uh British thing, yeah. The TikTok thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it just goes to show people.
+
+[20:20] Just because somebody did it on TikTok does not mean that it's good. By the way, uh John sent me, so like every once in a while, John sends me stuff, he's like, hey, old man, this is what's trending on uh on uh the idiot the idiot machine today. So I'm like, okay, so uh have we spoken about this? The folded tortilla machine thing that not machine, the folded tortilla thing that people are doing? No.
+
+[20:43] No. I don't really understand. I saw it and I hated it so much that I completely erased it from my mind. But what people are doing now to get their like eight million views is they're they're doing like a folded wrap, right? So it's not like they're cooking the tortilla properly, flour tortilla, of course, uh, but they're putting like the different flavors in between different pockets of the tortilla and folding it so that like, you know, like this ingredient will be separated by this other ingredient by a fold of the tortilla, right?
+
+[21:13] And then it all ends up in some sort of vaguely cone-shaped monstrosity. You with me mentally? Yes. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[21:20] So I want someone out there uh who can hear the sound of our voices to tell me why on God's earth you would ever want this to happen. Why would I want more crappy, gummy, improperly cooked, improperly reheated tortilla in between every different ingredient that I want? Like, why would you ever want this to happen? Why would you watch somebody doing a video of this? Why would you encourage them?
+
+[21:46] That's all. That's all I want to say about that. I just don't understand why anyone would want to do this. And then I it's one of those situations where I saw it once and I was like, these people are actively hurting food. And you should not encourage people who are actively hurting food.
+
+[22:03] You just shouldn't do it. I don't think. They're just showing you. Did you know you can't trust everything you see on the internet, even if there's a video? Did you know that?
+
+[22:19] Well, I don't think TikTok's like the like I don't know, YouTube or it's it's for really young people. Well, like what do you consider really young? My my kids watch it. That's what I'm saying. Oh, it's like teenage, not like five-year-olds.
+
+[22:37] It's not like it's not like it's not like teletubies. Right. Or booba. Do you remember booba? Kind of.
+
+[22:43] Oh. Boo bah. Remember that? And then it was like boodaloodaloo, and then they fart. You don't remember this?
+
+[22:50] Yeah. All right. Booba. We had we had these uh these like it's one of these things that was invented for the toy, I'm pretty sure. Like they're there, it's nonverbal.
+
+[23:00] So, like uh, you know, when when in between when Booker was born and Dax was born, like they started having a lot of of uh kids' programming that was non-verbal come on where it's like this non-verbal learning stuff. And and the the boobah thing was one of those, it was also, I think, flash animation stuff. So it's like you just have colors and things saying booba and like fart noises, and I don't know, the kids loved it. Anyway, it's a human torture. These noise toys are if if you for any of you that are gonna go to uh a baby shower anytime uh anytime from now till till till you're gonna be dead the rest of your life, and you don't like the parents, give them noise toys.
+
+[23:43] If you're ever yeah, uh you know, Nastasia, when you're when you want to be a butthead and you're going to one of your buddies' house, four baby showers coming out. Yes, noise toys. Yeah, this is good to know, yeah. Noise toys. Or like especially it's even better because like the problem with uh the problem with doing it at baby showers, they can throw it away before the kids get old enough.
+
+[24:03] It's even better when the person you're giving it to doesn't have the technical skill to open it and cut all the wires to all the speakers, right? Or even better, give a mechanical noise toy because you can't even defeat them, right? But uh, like the best is to go to someone's house that has like a five-year-old to like a seven year old and just give them the loudest, most obnoxious and yet addictive toy that you can. Give it to them about 20 minutes before you leave, so you can have the satisfaction of seeing the look on the parent's face, and then hightail it out of that place before the noise drives you nuts. This is this is your forever now.
+
+[24:39] Bye. Yeah. Goodbye. Because then, like, what are you gonna do? What is the parent gonna do?
+
+[24:44] Throw it away? Make the kid make you know, bend the kid like a pretzel by throwing it away? What are they gonna do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking it was a good one for the first baby shower because it decreases the chance that you get invited to future baby showers if they have more kids.
+
+[24:57] But I see how you need you you need you need the child there to make sure it stays in the house. Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you this another thing. When I was a boy, men didn't get invited to baby showers. And we were lucky.
+
+[25:09] You know what I mean? Because they are a kind of a nightmare, right, Sas, baby shower nightmare. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah. What's the noise toy equivalent of a wedding for a wedding gift?
+
+[25:21] Oh. If you don't like the bride and groom, what are you supposed to give them? Oh, you give them nothing because you have a year and then you just let the year pass and then have it fester forever. Uh-huh. Yeah.
+
+[25:32] You do that for everyone though, dude. That's not true. You're not just being mean. Now you're just being now you're just being hurtful, Nastasia. Am I wrong?
+
+[25:39] We've never been to a wedding together. When was the last time we were at a wedding together? I mean, I can count it on zero fingers. We were almost gonna go to who's were we gonna go to? We went to Arielle's wedding.
+
+[25:48] Oh yeah, but we were gonna go to one together. I can't remember. Oh, uh uh Andy Ricker. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but we couldn't go to Thailand.
+
+[26:00] I forget why. Right. I wish. I've never been to Thailand. Oh man.
+
+[26:03] You needed to get home. I currently have a package in Thailand that has been sitting at customs for a month. What is it? Uh it's yeah, it's it's it's it's an oil tester. It's a freak, it's a nightmare.
+
+[26:19] It's a freaking nightmare. But like, it's a $500 thing, and I got it for $250 because someone was selling it in Thailand, right? And the guy didn't have any reviews, right? So I took a chance because PayPal is, you know, PayPal guarantees that you're gonna get the thing. And we don't really have them here in the US very much.
+
+[26:41] They're hard to get in the US, these oil testers, because in in in some other countries, you're legally obliged to test your oil to make sure that it doesn't have uh um too many polymerized uh you know polar compounds in it. Uh we're not, and so we don't, right? So they're hard to get here for a reasonable amount of money, but I don't know, it's just been stuck in in Thai customs for freaking a month, dude. And he keeps on swearing. One of our fans would love to pick it up for you now.
+
+[27:11] Well, I don't want it picked up. I want it in the United States. That's what I'm saying. Through customs. I'm sure it is someone who can't do some strings.
+
+[27:19] Who could smuggle it? Who can smuggle it? Well, the first time the person who sent it left the battery in it, and the people at Customs were like, yo, yo, this is the first three weeks. Yo, yo, yo, you can't, you can't, uh, you can't ship batteries. So then they took the battery out and they shipped it back, but that was like only like a week before the new year, right?
+
+[27:40] So I was like, ah crap, if it doesn't make it through customs before lunar new year, I'm hosed, right? And then I uh I was like, oh, well, maybe I'll I looked it up, and you know, I like Thailand only just this year officially made Lunar New Year uh a national holiday, like, right? So I figured well, maybe I'm okay, they're only gonna take maybe the Friday off. So then I sent an email like yesterday, because they definitely don't celebrate any President's Day, and I was like, hey, just asking, I see that it's stuck again, and he's and the guy wrote me back like within 10 seconds, he's like, uh, little thing called Lunar New Year. I was like, oh, oh.
+
+[28:16] You know what I mean? Over a month. Over a month. Don't get don't get us started on holiday on like having to do business across countries with different holiday patterns, right, Nastasia? Yes.
+
+[28:34] Because it is not a topic that we should start down the road of. We should not discuss it. We should not. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy to use just egg.
+
+[28:53] You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J-U.S. slash H R N. That's J U.S. slash H R N.
+
+[29:06] Made from plants. Just Egg is a better egg for you and for the planet. It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable. Just egg uses less water and generates fewer carbon emissions.
+
+[29:22] Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J U.S. slash H R N. That's J U.S.
+
+[29:38] slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble. Great for omelets, frittatas, stir-fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre-baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads.
+
+[29:59] Chef Jose Andres calls just egg mind-blowing and bon appetite. Says, it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.ST slash H R N. So back to Strange Bird Indy.
+
+[30:22] Thanks for testing the myth and chatting about it. I knew it would be a myth. Although, Strangebird, I think you should have tried it first and let us know you couldn't get it to work before we wasted three different eggs. I wasted two, so that's four eggs waste it. Although they are cheap.
+
+[30:41] I have another. Can I use vacuum evaporation to reduce a liquid or a juice into a syrup at room temperature? What gear would I need? Yes. Okay.
+
+[30:55] I feel like that didn't cover one gear at a minimum. Yeah, okay. So listen, as I was saying before, uh, when you apply a vacuum on something, you lower the temperature at which it boils, and um a good like oil-based refrigeration vacuum pump or a uh you know, a commercial vacuum machine, or even a rotovap, a rotary evaporator vacuum pump, it can very easily get a pressure low enough to um boil uh liquid at room temperature. The problems that you're gonna have doing this is depends on as you concentrate it, as it gets higher and higher sugar, it's gonna be harder and harder to get the stuff out. You're gonna need to be able to suck more and more of a vacuum.
+
+[31:34] But even more importantly, is you need to recondense all the liquid because none of these vacuum machines are designed to um are to suck all of that moisture out. So you're gonna need some form of cold trap uh in between. So you're gonna need some form of stirring, you're gonna need some form of heating because as you boil it with a vacuum, you're gonna be lowering the temperature to the point where you could even freeze it if you if you went long enough. So you're gonna need to heat it just to keep it at room temperature. Basically, you're gonna need to build your own rotary evaporator.
+
+[32:03] The answer is you're gonna need to build your own rotary evaporator, right? And I've done it for cheap, but it's a real pain in the butt. You can do it with a stir plate, an Erlenmeyer flask, a cold trap, and a vacuum pump, but you know, it's more of like uh yay, I did it, not like uh I'm gonna use this to make breakfast. You know what I mean? Yes.
+
+[32:23] Yeah. Uh oh, and even though John's not here, uh Brian Schuter wrote in about uh uh John's John may not be able for scheduling reasons to do his maple syrup this year, but uh uh one of one of uh our old one of my old uh interns, friends from uh French Culinary Institute moved back to uh Minnesota, Peter Schweiger, and apparently, and he was at Marvel Bar, which I just heard from this contact unfortunately closed uh before I could get to go to it because I haven't been to Minnesota in many, many years. You ever go to Minnesota, guys? No. Met my wife in Minnesota.
+
+[33:00] Really? Is she from Minnesota? She was living there at the time, but yeah. No Marvel Bar for me, just the uh what was that? The Eagles Club is where we went for our first date.
+
+[33:12] Real good cocktails at the Eagles Club. You really are you just No, but they were quite cheap. Alright. Well, what what food stuffs do you remember from uh from Minnesota? Oh uh don't say wild rice, do not say wild rice, do not say wild rice.
+
+[33:29] Give me some things. I won't. I was staying at my brother's house, so I don't remember what I pasta, probably. I have no idea. I'm sure I just ate whatever the hell he had around.
+
+[33:44] One of my mom's best friends, dad used to be the uh doctor for the Minnesota Vikings. So we went to Minnesota when I was a kid, and apparently it was a great time, but I was too young to remember. We did catch a boat ton of catfish that nobody wanted to eat, so we bury them in the garden as fertilizer. There endeth my memories of Minnesota. Oh yeah.
+
+[34:05] Yeah. Uh anyway, so Peter Schweiger goes to like Upper Minnesota and does maple syrup every year. So uh maybe we'll try to contact him. We'll get uh Mindy has his contact. So we'll uh we'll hook it up, and if we can if we can get his advice in time for John, uh if we can get the scheduling to work, we'll we'll have some cooking issues, maple syrup.
+
+[34:24] Although you think John's gonna share any with us, Nastasia, or is he gonna keep it all for himself? I think he'll share. Don't you? If you share the techniques that help him to increase both the quantity and quality of this maple syrup, he'll share with you. Can't have both.
+
+[34:40] He might keep it to himself then. It's real good. Yeah. Uh so let me ask you people a question. And I'm not gonna say anything about this.
+
+[34:47] I'm just gonna ask you a question. Matt, I'll ask you, uh uh, Matt, you're standing in for everyone now. And uh, by the way, people, I want you to know this is not the standard Dave or Nastasia versus Dave or Dave versus Nastasia situation. Nastasi and I are on the same side of this argument. We have other people we know who are not.
+
+[35:07] Alright? Alright? I'm just letting you know that. So when you're choosing sides, don't try to choose me or Nastasia because you have to like we're in complete alignment on this. I don't even know what you're asking.
+
+[35:14] You're sending. Now remember, it's COVID time, right? So a lot of people are sending care packages and it's hard, right? Oh god, we already send this. Well, I'm not gonna say what's in it.
+
+[35:28] Someone sends a package. Someone sends a package, Matt, to you, right? Force somebody else. Okay. Do you open it?
+
+[35:40] They sent uh no. Okay. Like let's say there's a bunch of weed and mushrooms, and you know that they're in there. I wasn't gonna go there, but wow, okay. There's a bunch of weed and mushrooms in there, and you know they're in there.
+
+[35:55] Do you take some as a tax? Oh, yeah, maybe. That's not like at that point. Yeah. It changes.
+
+[36:02] At that point, at that point, at that point you're clearly transmitting to a friend or something. I'm like, yeah, why not? Yeah, yeah. Let me add this. Since I didn't think we were gonna go there, I thought we were gonna keep it.
+
+[36:12] Because Dave, it changes the story every time when you tell a man of a certain age what is in the package. Wait, what do you mean certain age? People young people, old people, who who likes it? Uh what age likes it. TikTok is the new weed for the kids.
+
+[36:29] Yeah, yeah. Any man between the age of 18 and 50, I'd say. That's not a certain age, that's almost all ages. Certain age. Certain age.
+
+[36:40] Uh you know, like over half their life. Yeah, if they're living, probably. Uh anyway, so but my point is is that okay. I think this changes it a little bit. It's being sent to a state where it's legal.
+
+[36:55] So you're not, you're not being forced to become a felon for it. You're not being forced to break local laws to receive the package. So you you don't get a smuggler's matter slice. No, it's true that that did it it crossed my mind for sure. I mean, the minute you said what was in it, and now all of a sudden I had a very clear picture of like, oh, I'm delivering this package to basically like my college roommate.
+
+[37:19] I'm like, would I take a little bit off the top from his package? Absolutely I would. He owes me. What? You ask?
+
+[37:26] No. Tell him, maybe. What? Holy crap. Yeah.
+
+[37:33] Listen, it when you f when you find when you find somebody's wallet, do you take a fiver out of it before you hand it back to them? Well, this is why Nastasia is spot on, because I think like if you change the contents of the package to literally anything else, I don't think that that would be a good idea. No, of course. I mean you wouldn't take a Twizzler, but you would when it's when it is drugs, it's a it's a different. I just don't understand it.
+
+[38:05] I just I mean, honestly. The rules are clear. Also, wait, I thought you said that you guys are on the same side of this argument. We are. We won't touch it.
+
+[38:13] Oh, okay. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. But Nastasia's just like I understands that other people might. Yeah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:19] Yeah. And she's also, like, which I didn't know, making the further claim that it's a dude thing. It's a specifically 18 to 50 year old dude thing. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[38:27] Alright. I don't know about that, but Nastas and I are on the same side, and I literally can't, I literally can't understand any uh any other way to look at it other than it's not mine, I don't take any. I literally just can't understand any other thing. Yeah, I don't know. You know what I mean?
+
+[38:44] Because you drive. Because when you're in that if you're if you're already descending into that part of the culture, but it's legal though. Yeah, yeah. That's new to me, though. I don't know, yeah, you know.
+
+[38:59] Newfangled. You know, so this guy, he sent all these white truffles to me, so I pulled out my shaver and I was like, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka. Ooh, those eggs were good. Here's the rest of your used truffle. What?
+
+[39:10] No. I don't know. Yeah. I told you, Dave. Nastasia used to get the fancy truffles, huh?
+
+[39:18] We did have pasta flyer, yeah. You like those things? The white ones, yeah. You think they're worth it or you just like them? If they're there, they're they're good.
+
+[39:28] It's not like, do you ever crave them? No. Let me ask you a question, separate question. How much money? First of all, like let's say you had non-finite funds.
+
+[39:38] With like when they start shaving and they look at you, first of all, I don't play that game. So like when I got the A5 at the at the at the Japanese prime beef here in New York, I had them cross out the price tag because I didn't want the only thing that Jen saw when I got it home to be how much we had spent on the steak. I wanted her to enjoy the taste of it, not the money that was flowing out of our pocketbooks, right? But it's like I think a lot of people who are doing the truffle thing, like they get extra truffle just so that they can spend a lot of money. True or false.
+
+[40:08] Uh, yeah, probably. That's what that looks about. When you're shaving truffle for someone, do you have to give them the look? You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, no, I know.
+
+[40:16] I know. The uh, well, they're like, oh, you can't handle it, look, right? That that look. And then when they give you the when they give you the two-finger wave, when they when they give you that, you know what I mean? They they wave towards themselves a little bit with those two fingers.
+
+[40:27] Then the slicer gives the nod and the oh look, right? Oh. And then they keep slicing it, and then the person, and here's probably almost always a dude, gets embarrassed and they let them over slice, right? Anyway. Um, but if you had a non-finite amount, like when would you stop the slicing?
+
+[40:48] Like, so here's your pile of pasta, right? Here I am with my slicer. Oh, that's a hefty amount. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
+
+[40:57] Alright. So you like a good amount of truffle. Yeah. If you're gonna, yeah. Wait.
+
+[41:03] Okay. How much money would you need to have it be like worthwhile for you? In other words, that you would pay with your own money and not feel bad about it. Oh, I wouldn't. I even if you had non-finite money, gotta support them truffle farmers.
+
+[41:21] Uh not farmers, whatever, finders, wildcrafters. Okay. Uh well, what were we talking about? How do we get on that? How do we have a?
+
+[41:30] But I have a question. I have a question about sourcing troubles. So I I have heard there there is some amount of like fraudulent truffle purveying. Is that correct? Like nostalgia, when you were trying to source them for positive wire, is that a like a thing you had to worry about?
+
+[41:46] Like the No, because Mark had his super high-end contacts, and that was like verified and all that stuff. So I don't I can't speak to fraudulent truffles. Can you, Dave? Well, I mean, I haven't personally bought, but if you're a Jamok, then the odds that you get taken are high. I'll I'll tell you what.
+
+[42:07] I was at uh an event. I think Stasy were there too, but I don't remember what the event was, right? And at the event, one of the things was a giant, a giant like white truffle. Like one of those ones that looks like a human brain that was totally effed up. And they were auctioning it, not after effed up like crazy, right?
+
+[42:27] It wasn't quite human brain size, maybe like you know, monkey. Anyway, so like they're auctioning it off. Remember this, Nastasia? And like they brought it out and they were auctioning it off at this charity event, and we were sitting next to or standing next to uh uh you know some truffle expert who was already like six glasses of champagne into their cups, right? And we turned to them and they're like, I smelled it, it's frozen.
+
+[42:53] It was frozen, I can tell. It doesn't have the aroma. It's ruined, it's garbage, it's trash. And then I was like, oh Jesus. Like, this is not even something I knew you had to worry about.
+
+[43:01] You know what I mean? Like, but apparently, like to maintain this like super truffle, they had frozen it, and thereby for someone who knew any better, they ruined it, right? But they were gonna auction it off for a lot of money to someone who didn't know any better. Someone who was just sitting there nodding their head up and down when someone was shaving this stuff over it. You remember this, Nastasia?
+
+[43:18] I don't think I was with you there. I mean, remember that. All right. You would remember that. That's something you would remember.
+
+[43:25] Yeah. Um, anyways. Uh, but so yeah, there's a lot of fraud. I mean, obviously, everybody knows that truffle oil is nine out of ten times fraudulent, right? So, yeah, real bad.
+
+[43:40] Uh all right, so Dave Jensen wrote it. Now, I have to say, people, I apologize slightly. Uh this morning I was deep into a 3D modeling hole. Nastasia and I have a lot of like real-world business problems that we're dealing with right now, and we're trying to solve them all during uh the lunar new year, because as soon as all of our factories quote unquote come back online, we're gonna need to have a lot of answers for them. So, like basically my days are spent buried in uh in 3D modeling and testing.
+
+[44:10] So I'm reading these questions, and I may or may not have never seen them before. So you're getting my unvarnished, unprepared response. All right. Dave Jensen via email. Want to say, love the show.
+
+[44:22] Well, thanks. After discovering it in 2019, I made the plunge in spring of 2020 to begin listening to the back catalog. I have less than a hundred episodes to go to get cut off. Jeez, that's a lot. You listen to a lot.
+
+[44:32] Uh I know you think those of us who listen to old episodes are crazy. Oh, there you go. And while that may be true, it has been an excellent informative distraction since COVID started. Uh I don't recall this being mentioned, but uh, it's in the last hundred. Just listen to the last hundred.
+
+[44:44] This question's gonna get answered. I don't even know what the question is. I just know that in the last one hundred. It's there were very thorough episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[44:52] It's so thorough. Like, remember, once, so well, how many have we done? Eight million. So, like, like one, like there's only a hundred of them, but those hundred, we do nothing but answer real questions. Right, Nastasi is have to find them.
+
+[45:03] They're secretly hidden. Yeah. Uh I don't recall this being mentioned, but I found a company that sells, oh, uh, this is biodegradable vacuum bags for sous vide cooking. Remember that guy that took the class with us who only called it Suz Vide? No, I don't remember.
+
+[45:18] And his only reason for existence was to make pickled onions and sell them, and he would come up to us after every event at the French culinary and be like, the onions, the onions. And he would ask us questions about his onions. You don't remember this guy? No. The on and then he would come up.
+
+[45:34] So like Mills and I would be doing a demo. Nastasia would be there. We had the interns, the entire, like, entire demo stage is like littered with detritus from like all the crazy demo stuff. And then Mr. Onions would start approaching the demo area from the audience, and Nils would just be like, Oh, I gotta go, I gotta go, and he would go, and I would be s stuck talking to Mr.
+
+[45:59] Onions for like 45 minutes, and then Nastasia would be staring knives through my body as though I wanted to talk to Mr. Onions. Sometimes it seems like you do. Listen, people, I like onions more probably than the next guy. But I don't want to talk more than three times about your pickled onions.
+
+[46:18] You know what I'm saying? Yes. Anyway. You like those tiny Italian pickled onions, the wild ones? Yeah.
+
+[46:24] What are those called? Lam lamb, what are they? Lamb, what are they? Lampeshi? Yeah, they're good though.
+
+[46:29] Uh all right. I don't recall being mentioned, but I found a company that sells biodegradable vacuum bags for sous-vide cooking. I've traditionally used Ziploc bags for all of my low temperature work, but recently purchased a Vesta brack uh vacuum sealer, and uh when I went to order some bags, I saw they had new biodegrad uh biodegradable bags on their website. I've only used them twice, but did a side-by-side on wings for the Super Bowl. Uh, did you are you uh what what do you like for your Super Bowl leads, Nastasia?
+
+[46:55] Uh we have wings and uh chili, yeah. Chili, like chili in a in a bowl, or like like with fixings, like with cheese and onions and all that crap, or just no, just in a bowl. Uh and but so like you have the separately when with your wings, are you are you like uh are you like a uh like a buffalo sauce? Do you do the blue cheese on the bottom? I don't know.
+
+[47:18] My mom my mom does it, and they are over they she fries them for like an hour, the wings. I swear to god, and I I choked. It was this year? Yeah, this was last weekend, right? Yeah.
+
+[47:29] You choked? I joke. Well, I like I I had to spin it. It was it was so it was like the darkest, darkest brown, you know. Do you know and and that's without breading?
+
+[47:45] It was just dark, dark brown. Yeah, dark, dark, dark brown. Like, like shriveled. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[47:51] Like our favorite newscaster. Okay. So then we'll talk about it later. The um, but you know, it's Jen, my wife, it's her one of her biggest fears is that like either I or one of the kids will choke. That's her biggest fear.
+
+[48:12] So anytime it says choke, don't ever say choke in front of Jen. She'll like think somebody's choking. It's like it's up there. It's like the way that you're afraid of of like getting electrocuted or people getting electrocuted. Yeah.
+
+[48:23] She's afraid of choking. It's a problem. Like with fish bones and stuff. It's a problem. You know what I mean?
+
+[48:30] Anyway. Yeah. Uh, all right. How was the chili? Good, because my dad made it.
+
+[48:37] Whoa. Calling out your mom. Jeez. Wow. It was good because my dad made it.
+
+[48:47] Wow. She likes it. If there's a little bit of like moisture in chicken, she gets she gets a little, you know, crazy. Is your is your is your dad a beans or a no beans? Beans.
+
+[49:02] Beans. Beans and beef. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[49:07] Alright. I like I like beans. Although I I enjoy a non-bean chili, but I also I I like it any which way. As long as it tastes good, I like it. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[49:15] Mm-hmm. All right. So David Jensen said, I have only used these biodegradable bags. That's what we're talking about, by the way. Uh I've only used these biodegradable bags twice so far, but did a side-by-side on wings for the Super Bowl, and they held up well for one hour at 65 degrees Celsius.
+
+[49:29] I haven't tried anything else to put them to the test. Do you have any tests you think might be worth running to see how well they hold up versus plastic? They are about 50% more expensive than regular bags. Uh the gallon bags are about a dollar and wow, that is a lot more. Hold on one sec.
+
+[49:48] Uh I was just uh having someone stop making noise in this. Yeah. Uh I haven't tried anything else to put them to the test. Do you have any tests you think would be worth running? Um my question, uh, David, is uh I haven't gotten a chance to look at them yet, but a lot of times when people say that plastic is biodegradable, it's not really biodegradable.
+
+[50:10] Uh what it is is is that it breaks up into microplastic. So I'd be interested. Uh I'll do some hold on one second. What do you think is going on? Uh definitely sounds like, you know, just lunch, some lunch prep.
+
+[50:26] Hopefully, Dave gets a slice. Um still going. What is it? Alright, there we go. You know, I tell the kids I have one hour a week where I need silence in the living room, which is where I shoot the thing, right?
+
+[50:40] It's like, and you know what? It's like it's not like they're going anywhere, right? Like they can eat lunch before, they could eat lunch after. Right? Comes in, knocking plates around, running the running the disposal, pulling seltzer until the until the because like Dax drinks out of this giant mug, pulling seltzer until the the freaking motor turns on, right?
+
+[50:59] So I'm like, yo. The first time I went off, I was like, yo, stop. Like eat lunch afterwards. You don't even have school today. It's not like you're doing it around classes.
+
+[51:12] It's in between games of uh whatever they play, Halo or Call of Duty, whatever garbage they put out. That's like President's Week. Kids get a whole week off. They get a week off? I thought it was a whole freaking week.
+
+[51:23] I thought we stopped celebrating white men like this past year. Yeah, I thought presidents Obama was not a president. Well, oh, all right. You don't think Obama's a black man? Okay.
+
+[51:37] All right. Also, I good to know. I would like to say that I am canceled until further notice. Oh, this is your this is. Okay.
+
+[51:52] Discuss pre canceled. Nastasia is a believer in pre canceled. I think everyone should be born canceled until the committee of whatever Gen Z, Gen A A, whatever the next thing decides otherwise. Sees sees fit to uncancel them. Yes.
+
+[52:08] Huh. Prove yourself. Bold. Yeah, I don't know about that. Uh I thought you agree with me.
+
+[52:15] Why? I thought you were because Did you have this idea in response to the cancel kids uh skit? No, I had it before. What's a cancel kids? All I'm saying is is that, you know.
+
+[52:29] Okay. I I I like you heard it first. I'm canceled. Yeah, but not really. You just want you just want to make this point.
+
+[52:38] No, I don't that everyone should be pre-canceled. What do you mean? You just said you couldn't. Oh, yeah, I think that would be a good idea. I know it's not gonna happen, but I am pre-cancelling myself, so that what does that mean though?
+
+[52:49] That means you can't listen to yourself? No, that means you're getting off of social media. What does it mean? It means I'm gonna delete her channel. It'll just be blank space every time Nastasia spoke of it.
+
+[52:58] Well, listen, uh, I don't want Nastasia to be canceled because she's still on the show, and I would prefer if you guys continue to listen to cooking issues. Wait, because if you're canceled, they can't listen to cooking issues. That's why. Yeah, that's what cancelled means. So, you know, you should be still be young enough to kind of realize what it means.
+
+[53:16] It means that no one would listen to you anymore. And as this is like part of the case. I guess it could I guess it could be just canceled except for this show. Uh yeah, that's not the way canceling works. That's not the way canceling works.
+
+[53:30] I'm starting to get a sense when when Nastasia was like, it's for it TikTok is for young people. I'm now getting it that like where Nastasia falls gener generationally. Like nothing. Not on board with TikTok. Not a hundred percent clear on the canceling.
+
+[53:43] Yeah, you're not you're not old enough to be old yet, Nastasia. Just keep it mellow for a couple more years, alright? Uh you know? So it's like uh geez. Yeah.
+
+[53:56] Lunacy. So uh most of these bags that say they're biodegradable, and I don't know this from cooking bags, I know it from dog poop bags. Most dog poop bags that say they are biodegradable aren't actually biodegradable. What happens is is they break up into tiny pieces and then end up being tiny little pieces of polyethylene called microplastic that like litter the ground and the ground actually becomes a certain percentage microplastic, which is not uh I think ideal. So um most of the people I know that are doing work with real real actual biodegradable plastics, one of the issues with them is that they tend to absorb moisture over time, duh, because they're biodegradable, and so they tend to have a finite lifespan.
+
+[54:41] Uh and in fact, um back when Nastasi and I thought we were going to maybe sell snack products, we had spoken to some people about some bioplastics using bags, and they said that they only work if you have very good control over the um over the manufacturing, and you get it straight from the manufacturer and don't let them absorb any moisture, otherwise they're a huge pain in the butt. So, and by absorb moisture, I mean not like disintegrate absorb moisture, I mean absorb small amounts of moisture in the way that let's say nylon might. Uh anyway, uh that's my take on it, but I will research those and see whether or not they are uh what I call feel-good biodegradable. I can't see it, so it's probably not in the earth still, versus actual biodegradable, like turns back into stuff that animals can use and turn into more animal parts. You know what I mean?
+
+[55:29] Yes. Alright. Uh ooh, H-O-O-V-E. How do you think you pronounce that? Hoove?
+
+[55:38] H-O-O-V, yeah. H-O-O-V-E. Hoof. That's cool. Hoove.
+
+[55:45] Do you know what people don't say anymore? If I said hoover, would you know what I meant? You mean like a vacuum, yeah. So yeah, but like to ingest something quickly, inhale. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[55:58] Yeah. So that's still current. People would still know what that don't know. I mean, I think we've already established that we're maybe not on the cutting edge of culture. Do you think people in Boston still say put it in the frigid air?
+
+[56:14] You think they still say that? I hope so. Yeah. Frigidair. It's not like because as if that's a brand anyone even remembers anymore anymore, but like in in the in in in you know, in the Medford part of my family, there was you'd say put it in the refrigerator, and they're like, what the hell's that?
+
+[56:33] Friggin'? You know what I mean? And then like you're like, yeah, the frigid air, the frigidair. And I don't think they ever had a refrigerator brand refrigerator. Anyway, it's a good brand name though.
+
+[56:40] Frigidair. Right? Yeah. Uh okay. Anyway.
+
+[56:45] Uh who've wrote in and said, Who Thompson wrote in and said, hey, I'm here with multiple annoying questions. So I'm gonna go, I'm not gonna read through the whole thing, I'm gonna go one by one. And if you don't like the questions, this to Assy, we'll stop and we'll bump it to the next one, right? That's how you that's how you want to roll? Yeah, that sounds good.
+
+[57:00] All right. Uh firstly, I just got some transglutaminase. So for those of you that I don't know, don't know, uh, it's meat meat glue. So transglutaminase is the enzyme that uh, you know, glues different meats together, uh, covalently bonding the different protein strands. And I'm looking to start experimenting.
+
+[57:17] Uh what I want to do is make steak with chicken screw uh chicken skin glued on, uh, sort of the first thing people do with meat glue. Well, I don't know if it's the first thing, but it's one of the first things you do with meat glue. It's delicious. Uh like 72-hour short rib uh with sous- vide. Uh my go-to method would be to sous-vide the steak, then glue the skin, then hot skill it.
+
+[57:37] Nope. Wrong. Will the meat glue work when the steak is already cooked? It will, but that's not what you should do. Lastly, if I brine uh a piece of beef with a relatively low salt concentration, like 0.25 to 0.5%.
+
+[57:48] Will I get a cured texture? Will I reap the uh the rewards of juiciness from brining? Asking for well, I thought sorry. So that I'm gonna take that as a question. First of all, the brining is a subject of much debate.
+
+[58:01] I am not a believer in the word uh dry brine. There is salt. And then there's a question is how am I gonna add the salt, right? Now the problem with meat is that meat with a lot of connective tissue can benefit from brining in long cook situations. Meat where the texture is primarily determined by the muscle fibers will take on a cured texture when it is salted too long ahead of time, especially if you're going to cook and chill it.
+
+[58:30] You should glue the skin to the meat first, because both the skin uh and the meat will contract and they will stick together. Meat glue also works much better on raw meat. If you think about the way a chicken works, you don't rip the skin off of a chicken, cook a chicken, and then glue the skin back onto a chicken. You cook it as kind of one unit. So if you want a good bond, and the one we always used to do was um skirt steak, we would bond uh chicken skin to skirt steak and then trim it.
+
+[58:59] And the reason uh you do that is that um you know it's a relatively good thickness to fry up. You can also low temp it with the skin on all the way through, pull it, let it let it uh dry out, like you would for chicken skin, and then fry it uh at as normal, right? So I would just say that. And remember, you don't need to worry about uh as long as you don't puncture the meat, right? I wouldn't worry that much about um salmonella contamination from the chicken skin in as long as you don't puncture the meat because the outside where the skin is is gonna be fried to a very high temperature.
+
+[59:34] So you should kill all that stuff dead, and also even the relatively low temperatures at which you'd cook a steak in a sous-vie bath are gonna be enough to wipe out uh or at least stop the growth of your friend Salmonella. Right? Right? Make any sense? Yeah?
+
+[59:54] Uh all right. Joe Ankowitz wrote in. Hey, quick question. How much vital wheat gluten do you use in your breads? Also, you mentioned adding yeast to your bread recipes in addition to starter.
+
+[1:00:05] At what point do uh do you add the yeast and how much do you use? Thanks, uh Joe Ankowitz. Uh okay, so how much wheat gluten, you know. I add depending from zero to however much, you know. I I I tend to not add more than about 10 grams to every uh 400 grams or so, or 10 gram, yeah, 10 grams to like, yeah, about 10 grams to 400.
+
+[1:00:31] I tend not to add more than that, which is I guess uh uh what is that like two and a half percent or something like that. I tend not to add more, but I really uh I don't even I don't use it on wheats that I don't think are deficient, right? So, like uh everyone goes crazy over red fife wheat, but um you know, relative to other wheats that I use, like Redeemer or or uh you know, like um turkey red or uh you know some of these other harder wheats, it you know, um it doesn't it doesn't have I don't think as strong a gluten and so I'll hit I'll when I use red fife I'll hit it hit it with a little bit of gluten but remember you have to jack your hydration uh a little bit um but you know I would just test it and see how you like it. A little bit is good, you know, uh for breads that are underperforming on their on their rise. Um the yeast, you I I would if you're gonna add yeast uh at all, just add it when you add the other leavening and add it small enough such that the rise time is what you want, right?
+
+[1:01:32] So what you're doing is is the sour the sourdough starter is there, it's producing the sourness. So, like if you have a sourdough that's getting too sour too too fast, right? Because what's happening is you haven't had a chance to condition it yet, and so you're like pulling it out of the fridge, you're maybe only doubling it once and then adding it so it's gonna get real sour real quick and slack the dough out, you add um just add enough yeast to balance that back such that you know it rises in the time that that you want it to, but it you I can't give you a number. You just have to you just have to figure it out. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[1:02:05] Based on your individual uh starter. That makes sense, Nastasia? No. Because remember, your starter, your starter and my starter are different. How you treat your starter, how I treat my starter are different.
+
+[1:02:16] I'm a lazy person, and so like you know, like when I'm using the starter, I I like I want it to be able to come out of the fridge. I want to be able to double it up, put it in that day, right, and then do whatever I'm gonna do with the bread. I don't want to have to, I don't want to have to think two days in advance about my starter, right? So I build the recipes around the knowledge that that's the level of pain in the butt I'm willing to go to. Just understand yourself and how much of a pain in the butt you want your life to be, and then build your recipes around that.
+
+[1:02:47] You know what I mean? Uh one more question, Dave. Uh all right. Uh okay. How do you think this how do you think this person's name breaks down?
+
+[1:03:00] Jake Nancaro, I think is how this name breaks down via Instagram. Hey Dave and the cooking issues crew. I'm from Melbourne, Australia, which is pronounced Mel Ben, not Melbourne. What do you think about that, Stas? Melbourne.
+
+[1:03:13] I have chills. Wait, did he did he put that in there? Or you're just telling people? No. I was told to say this.
+
+[1:03:22] It's pronounced Mel Ben. Okay. Mel Ben, like my brother Ben. Mel Ben. Not Melbourn.
+
+[1:03:30] With like a lot of O's. Melbourne. But I kind of prefer the I mean, whatever. Your city, you get to get to call it call it. You get to call it what you want.
+
+[1:03:39] You know? It's one of the rights you have. If you have a city, you get to call it what you want. Look, we have a street, we call it uh Houston. You don't get to tell us it's Houston.
+
+[1:03:47] It's not. It's Houston. It's our street. We live here, right? Anyway.
+
+[1:03:51] Alright. You'll have to excuse my accent, Nastasi. You can't hear it, but now you're making me hear it by saying that. Dave also hates the accent. I have certain.
+
+[1:04:00] Okay, I will say this about the Australian accent. There's uh, which is the word that we that both of us find thoroughly we can't imitate it. Like we can imitate a lot, but what's the word we can't imitate? I don't know. It's uh there's a word, there's a vowel-based word in an Australian accent.
+
+[1:04:17] Oh, so the word so. Oh, yeah. It's sore. We can't do it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:04:22] We can't. I can't, I can't wrap my mind around it. Anyway, it's so. Anyway, uh, but not so like SEW. So, like, like anyway, whatever.
+
+[1:04:34] No, anyway, I believe when I when I was in New Zealand, I noticed that the word no could include all of the vowels. And it's quite quite confusing. Say it, say it, Matt. I no. Or I don't know.
+
+[1:04:47] I can't. I can't. But it's like nor almost. It's like nor almost. Yeah.
+
+[1:04:52] No. I just yeah, yeah. Can't be imitated by it can't be imitated by a non-trained American, a non-voice acting trained American. Can't really like we kind of grew up imitating British people here in this country, but like we didn't grow up, at least my generation didn't grow up trying to imitate this particular like consonant plus the letter O from Australia. We can't do it.
+
+[1:05:17] You know what I mean? And it's different from like the Canadian Surrey out. Like that we can do. You know what I mean? Badly, I'm sure, but we can wrap our minds around it.
+
+[1:05:26] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. Uh all right, so we're back to to Melbourne. Uh I've been listening to your pod for a couple of weeks now.
+
+[1:05:35] I've been trying to listen to the whole backlog. I started listening backwards, but that was some weird Benjamin Button crap. Have we ever read this question? Now I'm having a Benjamin Button moment and a Merlin moment, by the way. There's some sort of new Stonehenge thing out with Merlin.
+
+[1:05:47] I gotta look it up. Because you know I like Stonehenge. You know how I like Stonehenge and Stonehenge? Do you okay? Do you remember this?
+
+[1:05:54] What are the two days in the year where you can actually go on to Stonehenge with almost no rules? Solstice and solstice. Correct. Now, which one of those two solstices is crowded? The one that's the sunnier or warm one.
+
+[1:06:08] Ding ding ding ding ding. So what I'm saying is, let's do the cooking issues winter solstice at Stonehenge. Yeah, we won't hang out at Bath, have some delicious reagan cider, go freeze our butts off on the on the plane, and then be like, I'm in Stonehenge on a solstice, and we don't have to deal with all the people that can't handle the cold weather. You know what I mean? Sounds great.
+
+[1:06:29] You know what I mean? None of those VW uh camper vans, uh, like uh, they're too old and they're not maintained well enough. They can't drive in that cold a weather. You don't need to worry about those people showing up. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:06:40] Yeah anyways. Anyways, I like Stonehenge. Anyways. Uh, hearing about the things you talked about in reverse, we're talking about Benjamin Button again. Uh, so I'm tackling it year by year starting at 2020 and going backwards.
+
+[1:06:52] My question is about kitchen scales. And if you have any specific recommendations, I didn't talk about this already? I think I talked about this already. I feel like I talked about it. Listen, what I recommend, here's the problem.
+
+[1:07:06] I've gone on eBay, and uh, so there's a number of people on Amazon, and by the way, these are made in China, so it's even closer to Melbourne, right? And they're being shipped from China. So, like if it's being shipped from China to the United States, they'll definitely, they'll definitely full Melbourne you, right? You want to look at um, they have these ones now, five kilograms, five kilograms, get this, by the point oh one grams. Now, are they accurate at 0.01 grams?
+
+[1:07:34] No. But they are accurate to about a tenth of a gram. But the problem if you buy them super cheap, so like you can get them for like a hundred dollars or a hundred and something dollars uh from a legitimate company. Or you can go and get last year's model from the factory that made them, right? Shipped directly to you, and the problem is is that you could get a dud or you could get a great one.
+
+[1:07:55] So I have a 30 kilogram kitchen scale that's by the tenth gram that is my day-to-day kitchen scale because I got really lucky. I also have a five kilogram by the hundredth gram, and that sucker has, you know, about uh about a gram's drift as it heats up over the course of an hour. But, you know, I'm a I love this. A I love a scale that plugs in because is there anything worse than you're trying to measure something and it's like, ooh, you know what I'm gonna do right now? I'm gonna save the battery, because that's what's important.
+
+[1:08:25] Not the measurement that you've been working on. It's the battery that's important and it turns off your scale in the middle of a measurement. For any of you that ever had this happen again, I want you to go take your scale. I want you to hit it with a sledgehammer, I want you to throw it away and go get you a scale that can get plugged in. Because guess what?
+
+[1:08:41] All of the scales that can plug in also take a battery. So you can have your battery in it, and you can take it wherever you want, but then when push comes to shove, it's not going to turn off in the middle of a measurement. When was the last time? How many times has this happened to you? You you put the bowl on the thing, you go, you get your brown sugar.
+
+[1:08:59] You're putting your brown sugar in the bowl. The brown sugar runs out or whatever. It gets clumped, and you're like, oh geez, and then you have to go over and you have to get scissors to open the brown sugar more to open new brown sugar. You get back, you're just putting the new brown sugar into the bowl. And by the way, you've added half the brown sugar already, right?
+
+[1:09:16] Half you've added, but not exactly half. And you weren't like sitting there with a pen and paper and writing down how much brown sugar you added. There's already eggs in this son of a gun. There's already, there's already freaking buttermilk. It's already all in there, right?
+
+[1:09:27] Right? You're just adding brown sugar, right? And then, and then right when you're boom boom, it turns off. And then when it when you turn it back on again, it's at zero, and then you're sitting there trying to guess. Yeah.
+
+[1:09:37] Nightmare. Yeah. Nightmare. Just yesterday I was doing the full arm's length reach across the kitchen for just to like to tap on the scale so that it or on the ball so that it wouldn't reset, it would read a small change and wouldn't reset, you know? Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:09:51] It's a nightmare. I think whoever thought that was a good idea, I what I think the scale should do is be like, yo, you want me to save the battery or your your your work? And I'll be like, work, thank you. You know what I mean? Like that would be okay.
+
+[1:10:04] You know? Or anything. Or like, how about this? How about this? Like, if I've touched a button in the last hour, just keep it on for an hour.
+
+[1:10:12] Just keep the sucker on for an hour. You know what I mean? And every time I touch the button, keep it on for an hour, right? That's the way the next spinzall is gonna work, by the way, people. We're trying to get rid of the timers.
+
+[1:10:24] Because the timers had tendency to they were never accurate. I didn't care about that. They're mainly just so that you don't leave the thing on forever. So I think what we're gonna try to do is make it such that when you turn it on, if you don't touch a button for an hour, it just turns off because you should touch your Sears all at least once an hour. Spinz all at least once an hour, right?
+
+[1:10:43] Right? Interesting slip. Yeah, you shouldn't do this with a Searzol. If you touch it once, it stays on for an hour. That seems like a bad idea.
+
+[1:10:49] Well, people do do that with the torches. I tell them not to, but people do do it. Like the torches have a lock on, right? It makes me nervous. Oh, yeah.
+
+[1:10:57] Now you're making me nervous, Matt. Yeah, sorry. My bad. Yeah. Anyways.
+
+[1:11:02] Uh so is that is that is that it'll is that all I'm allowed to do? Yeah, yeah. Is that it? Did we get to the end of the question? Yeah, yes.
+
+[1:11:08] We got that, but listen, Zero Anima wrote back and said they want to ask things. It's real quick, so it's good. Uh trying to clarify pineapple juice. I have both agar, agar, and pectanex, a vegan one. They're all all the pectanexes that I know of are fungal, so they're vegan, right?
+
+[1:11:24] Uh, would this be enough? I don't have a centrifuge, and I'm not sure if it requires freeze thaw. Thanks. Uh, you can hit pineapple juice with pectanex, and then uh you have to use a little more because the pectinx is broken down by the pec uh proteolytic enzymes in the pineapple juice, assuming it's fresh, so you might have to add a little more. Um, and you might have to add some finding agents uh just because pineapple juice is fairly acidic, but then that will settle out over the course of uh a day or two, and then you can rack off the top and you'll lose some, or you can do.
+
+[1:11:55] I actually, this is interesting. I haven't tested agar freeze thaw on pineapple, whether or not there's any problem with the enzyme, but there shouldn't be, right? There shouldn't be. So freeze thaw agar should be fine. You can do a quick agar, and if you don't want the pineapple to taste cooked, you should do a similar thing to what I do with lemon or lime juice, where I you boil the um agar separately.
+
+[1:12:15] The no-boil agar doesn't really uh work very well. Um so it will work, but the problem then is you either have to cook a portion of the pineapple juice uh or you have to add water, which is gonna make it um is gonna make it more watery. And uh agar uh clarification is on the no fly list for nostasia, she'll never do it again. What else is on that list? Uh garlic cutting.
+
+[1:12:40] Oh, you don't peel garlic? Not at my own house. So if you go to someone else's house, you'll do the unpleasant thing, but you won't force your guests to do it. Oh no, I just won't do it. Won't do it.
+
+[1:12:51] Unless I'm by myself, which yeah. Well, why wait? Oh, wait, so you will, in other words, you will make the sacrifice if you're by yourself and you want garlic. But if if anyone's around, I'm not doing it. That's somebody else's job.
+
+[1:13:05] That's like my mom who claims she's allergic to shrimp. If there's to raw shrimp, get this, people. My mom is like, I have a contact dermatitis with raw shrimp, so you have to peel all the shrimp and devain them. Oh, yeah, that's unpleasant too. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:13:21] But like, you really think my mom has a contact dermatitis to raw shrimp, or is it really that she just likes my hands to get that sli. You know when the when the shrimp slime, like, like it if you're doing it and then someone talks to you and you even just like sit there with your hands in the air for a couple of minutes and it starts to dry and you get that dry. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. You know what I don't like about chopping garlic?
+
+[1:13:42] I don't like that it ends up not only is your hands smell forever but the stickiness bothers me for some reason yeah you know that that tackiness of cooked garlic bothers me yeah yeah hey do you get do you get ticked off when someone else does it for you but they leave some of the skin in yeah but that happens all the time you're like where were you born what is wrong with you right do you let other people saute the garlic or do you assume they will burn it and so you take it no actually all my friends in this quarantine have or at least my West Coast friends have become really great cooks so I don't even have to cook anymore well that's good news I like to hear that I don't know about here not here uh we gotta go what okay what Matt you gotta go we gotta go we gotta go wait you we were about to sign off and you're like no wait oh well you gotta sign off now I don't hey look it's basically impossible to tell based on what is being said whether the show will continue further like anything could become another question I'm gonna go ahead and say that's fair yeah yeah fair statement uh all right well uh good to have you back on this coast Nastasia uh see you next time I'll see you in August why is that when you're gonna get vaccinated or whatever anyway all right cooking issues cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org.
+
+[1:15:29] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com/slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:15:50] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U dot S T slash H R N. This week on Meet and Three, it's the final episode of our series on global trade.
+
+[0:51] We're thinking futuristically from China's ambitious plans for a new silk road to the future of borders and automation. They love food trucks and they love growing your own food because these things are not dependent on essentially government systems. So there's a whole politics to pretzels on the dark web. Tune in to Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts. Hello.
+
+[1:58] Hello. Yeah. Uh John, of course, is still doing his grand jury duty, uh, down there in um lower Manhattan. Uh, and uh he can't obviously tell us anything about it, but he says it's kind of bru it's he says it's brutal. Yeah.
+
+[2:14] Yeah, 'cause you're in for like, isn't it? You're in for ten or twenty days and they're like full days, and you are really you're actually doing stuff on like normal jury duty where you just kinda sit around and wait to get dismissed. Well, he tells me now I've never been in a grand jury, right? I've only been on a regular jury. And but he says it's like, you know, because the basically a grand jury all they're deciding is, is it worthy going to trial, right?
+
+[2:35] So he's like, they'll do like four day or four or five a day. And and you don't hear anything good or or like there's no redemption ever because all that happens is the defense doesn't even show up. It's the prosecutor shows up and shows you a bunch of horrible stuff. So, like, here's a video tape of someone being murdered. Here's a blah blah because we know all the security footage.
+
+[2:58] He says it's just a f it's a freaking, like he says it's a freaking living nightmare show. And they don't show you things that are like, yeah, maybe the guy isn't guilty, or maybe the guy didn't kill the guy. It's always like, no, that guy definitely. Yeah, yeah. Or John was like, he's like, well, that guy's definitely dead because I can see him on the ground in a pool of blood, and they have enough evidence that the other guy beating the hell out of him is a uh is the guy that they're trying to charge.
+
+[3:26] So uh yeah, let's uh just uh let's uh take that to trial. This is like a very it's like a slightly toned down clockwork orange. They're showing you like tons of violent things in sequence, just like a little bit slower. Oh yeah. I don't know what John's for those of you that haven't seen Clockwork Orange, it's uh it's uh McDowell.
+
+[3:45] What was his first name? Roddy? Roddy McDowell? And uh Andy McDowell? I can't remember.
+
+[3:50] Anyway, so like the So he's an ultraviolent guy. The only thing he actually likes in life is Beethoven, and so they what do they strap him in a chair and like peel his eyes open and play Beethoven and they somehow they ruined Beethoven and violence at the same time for him, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Although I don't really under I don't I haven't seen it in a long time.
+
+[4:07] I saw it when I was too young. I saw it when I was like maybe thirteen, and I haven't seen it since. So maybe I should watch it again. Yeah, I feel like this is ripe for a rewatch. You ever watch that, Nastasia?
+
+[4:17] No. No interest? No interest. Because you don't have interest in that era of movie or that particular movie. I just never never got around to watching it.
+
+[4:29] But I do you go did you go through a period in your life where you try to watch like like all the classics of particular eras, and just that one you're like, that one doesn't appeal to me, or did you just never do that as a thing? I just never did it as a thing. Ah, I see. I used to do that. I mean, yeah, it makes sense, right?
+
+[4:47] It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[4:50] Uh anyway. Uh okay. So Dax wanted me to do this last week and I uh forgot. So here he he wants to write this book. See what you think, Nastasia.
+
+[5:01] See what you think, Matt. Right. He wants to write this book, but he's never gonna do it. So he wanted me to ask whether anyone else thought this was possible. He wants to write a book such that the first it's a 300 page book because that's the longest book that Dax, you know, who's sixteen, that's the longest book he can conceive of.
+
+[5:18] It's 300 pages. He can't imagine a book longer than three hundred pages. So the first two hundred and ninety-nine pages of the book suck. They're terrible. Right?
+
+[5:26] You with me so far? Yep. Yes. Worthless. Garbage.
+
+[5:30] Trash. Filth. Anyway. But that that last page makes the entire book into the best book you've ever read. Okay.
+
+[5:41] But you can't just read the last page. If you just read the last page, it still sucks. You need to have read the 299 first pages in order for that last page to make any sense. But if the first pages suck, why wouldn't I mean the chances are you stopping are high, right? Oh, very high.
+
+[6:01] The chances of it getting published are very low. But like if it becomes known that like of this phenomenon becomes known. I told him that he said that this was now again. This is going to give you some idea of Dax's uh literary taste, but he's like, I was inspired by To Kill a Mocking Bird, where the first half of it I thought sucked, and the second half of it made the whole thing good. He's like, but I want to do that where it's like, you know, all but the last page sucks, and then the last page is good.
+
+[6:27] But again, this is Dax's opinion, not mine. Again, I haven't read To Kill a Mocking Bird since I was probably 13. But I told him I'm not sure. Somebody was just telling me that they were reading a book that they were really super into. Uh, you know, they got it from the strand or something, they and they get they get to the very end and they realize somebody's ripped the last page out.
+
+[6:46] So that would be especially effective with uh Dax's book. Oh yeah. Well, the problem is that any critic reading it, right, would just would they would never make it to that last page to get the integration. It would have to become known. Yeah.
+
+[6:57] It would have to become known. I told him the reverse happens a lot. The reverse happens where you have a really great book and then the author destroys it in the last couple of pages. This happens constantly. Yeah.
+
+[7:07] Yeah. Anyway. The other thing is uh is that the kids his age now are playing uh so Nastasi and I used to play a game called How Much Would It Take To, right? So like Nastasi and I would think of something unpleasant and then figure out how much it would cost for you to get that to do that, right, Nastasia? You say that's true?
+
+[7:27] Yeah. Yeah, great game. It's a great game, actually, frankly, because uh you also get an idea of whether someone's a liar. I find that almost everyone who plays this game is a liar because their numbers are like ridiculous. Like how much to drink that gallon of oil, and they're like, No million dollars.
+
+[7:46] You're like, crap on you. If I showed up with a thousand dollars, put it on the table and said drink that oil, you would drink it. You know what I mean? Anyway, so like, whereas like I feel like I'm more realistic with my numbers. Did I ever give you the how much would it cost for you to eat a live s sea slug that's like the size of a shoebox?
+
+[8:02] The size of a shoebox? Mm-hmm. Do I get a knife and fork? Yeah, you get a knife and fork, but it's live. And and any I can I can dry gag, but I can't throw up.
+
+[8:13] Right, and you have to finish it all. And I and you really have to know like these things have wings and antennas and like so How much how much time do I have? You have six hours. Oh do I have condiments? No.
+
+[8:30] No. Oh, Jesus, Jesus. Or hold on, I'm I'm thinking, I'm thinking. I get a knife and fork, a good knife. I can get the knife of my choice.
+
+[8:38] Um let's think. No, you get you get just a knife. Let's just say like a regular steak knife. Oh, Jesus. So I I can't even I don't even have like I can't even sashimi this stuff.
+
+[8:50] No. As though it's possible with its writhing, disgusting body. Okay. Well, you have six hours, so you have the chance to sort of kill it and then like let it, you know actually expire. No, but yeah, yeah, but I mean you still I mean the problem with the knife, the reason I asked the knife question is because you can do a lot for palatability with amazing knife skills.
+
+[9:12] Like, you know, talk to any decent, like, you know, sushi chef, you know, fish cutter. You know what I'm saying? So like I'm not gonna be able to do like paper thin like slices and just like like let them slide down my throat. I'm gonna be hacking at it with some sort of like bonanza or sizzler grade steak knife, yeah, you know, and uh and like jamming a fork into it and then like shredding pieces off with this with this steak knife that can barely cut butter and then jamming it. So that that makes it more money, right?
+
+[9:44] And uh I'm just worried that I get halfway into it, accidentally throw up, and then lose all the cash. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's possible. So then have you seen them before, Matt?
+
+[9:57] No, I've never seen them before. A C S C slug? Yeah, but it it it doesn't come up online the way that it should. It's it's very different. It looks like an or like a human organ.
+
+[10:08] No condiments, beverages? No. Do you have an image, by the way, that you can share with me? I'll try to find on my phone, yeah. Okay, okay, cool.
+
+[10:17] Uh yeah, that's I would be really worried that like I'm gonna set a price, I'm gonna start in on this, and not be able to finish. Shoebox. So how much is a shoebox? That's also like probably like five pounds. Yeah.
+
+[10:30] How much is it? It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot of things. In six hours, I'm gonna say twenty five grand.
+
+[10:39] That's it. I'm so saying I'm being real here. Yeah, that seems pretty legit, actually. If you showed up with a shoebox, one shoebox had $25,000 in it, and one shoebox had a C slug and a and a and a steak knife from Ponderosa and a fork, I get a bib, right? And then like I'd be like, well, I'll go for it.
+
+[11:00] Wow. I'll go for it. Because then like I'll know by the end of hour one, after I've gone through like, you know, a third of the C slug, whether or not just to call it quits and see whether my bet was wrong. Right? Yeah.
+
+[11:12] It's it's not like it's like this is what I like to say to people. I was like, what percentage of people nostasi do you think do for money for a living? Something that they'd really they don't really care about. Okay. So 92% of the people are basically selling the vast majority of their day of their life for money.
+
+[11:34] Yeah. So I get yeah, six hours, 25 grand seems like a good deal. If if if if the average person is not doing what they want to do with their time anyway, why not just do something horribly unpleasant for a very short period of time, and then that frees up the rest of your time to do whatever you want. Yeah, but I don't know. I think that that's a very small amount of money for what you gotta do.
+
+[11:56] Okay, I mean, you know, I mean, it depends. I still use my college brain when I'm like, I'm like, that's more than I make in a year. And I get a whole sea slug out of it. You know what I mean? It's like Yeah.
+
+[12:11] You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you know, when I got out of college, I was making 20 grand a year. And we're happy to get it. Real college brand.
+
+[12:19] This is free food. I mean, can't turn that down. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's theoretically nourishing. There's no cultures that eat it.
+
+[12:26] Oh, God. So what's what's your number, Nastasia? I don't think I could do it. I really think I could do it. How much to try?
+
+[12:34] If okay, if someone showed up with a million dollar briefcase of cash, you wouldn't be like, I'm gonna give it the old try. No, Dave, because I nope. See, this is That's not. Come on. I really I know I would gag.
+
+[12:49] I know I would cry. I know, I know me. I know, but that's all acceptable. That's all an acceptable risk to take. That's what I'm saying.
+
+[12:56] It's like my whole life. That's that's my that's my uh my college band, gagging and crying. It's actually there's a Southern rock band people call driving and crying. I'm I'm ripping their name off a little bit. Driving Crying was a famous band, and so gagging and crying.
+
+[13:12] Gagging and crying would be the other. Uh uh. Oh. Yes. So anyway, so Dax Dax is now playing, instead of that game, he's playing kind of disturbing variants of would you rather?
+
+[13:25] That's what the kids on the internet are doing. But like, like much more crazy than we used to do when we were kids. Like, he's would you rather have someone chop off both of your hands, or or and this is an the your answer is gonna depend on how old you are, I think, right? Or would you rather have someone tattoo a swastika on your forehead and you were never allowed to explain to anyone why it was there? Do you have to feel the chopping of the hands?
+
+[13:55] This wasn't a question, but I didn't ask him, so I don't know, but I'm gonna say no. Yeah, I think I'd rather have my hands not have hands. That is nuts to me. That's nuts to me too. Have you heard of hats?
+
+[14:08] I don't know. Part of it is everything ruin your life. The idea is, well, so but the thing is is that like I really enjoy my hands. Yeah, hands are really important. I'll go to the body.
+
+[14:19] Imagine you're not going to be able to do listen. Like you can't tell someone why you have a swastika on your head. Like no move to the part of the world where this means nothing to them and still have hands. Or just be a social pariah. I am anyway.
+
+[14:34] When was the last time you saw a human being, Nastasia? It doesn't matter. All I'm saying is that like until you live it, Dave, you can't say crap. So he's not saying he's not saying Dax is not saying that you have to like not be sympathizing. And you don't see people.
+
+[14:51] Yeah, but Dax is saying Dax is not saying that you have to take on any sort of ideology. You just have that determination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does not matter. I had a good strategy.
+
+[15:03] You can't explain it, right? Someone's like, What's that on your forehead? You say, What? No. Like you have a swastika on your head.
+
+[15:12] What? Just say it like that. What? Like that. I don't know.
+
+[15:16] Hands. That's interesting. Aesthetics. There's a lot of good prosthetics out there. Also, you're like no what?
+
+[15:23] But you're all your hands. Oh, that's fine. Like swastika's, you know, a swastika, whatever. No, no. Well, they chose he chose swastika because it's a like obviously it's I think it's an obviously clear answer, I guess.
+
+[15:37] For me. What? I don't know. Oh. The notes.
+
+[15:41] Let's put a pin in this. If we're still doing something i even remotely similar to this in ten years, right? When you're, you know 10 years older. Let's see whether you would choose your hands. Okay.
+
+[15:53] I okay. Anyway. So is Dax, by the way, even though he's young, I don't know, he didn't tell me what he chose, but his friend chose no hands over Nazi symbol. I think it's a generational thing. Yeah.
+
+[16:08] You are no one. The generational component makes sense to me. Oh I am actually the last generation that like I'm the last generation where like Nazis were more real. Like there were literally Nazis or like around when I was like a like old school like Nazis still alive who escaped to like South America, and like that that was all more real when I was a kid. World War II was very you could still get World War II surplus in surplus stores when I was a kid.
+
+[16:40] You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyways. Oh wait. You had me.
+
+[16:46] What was the thing we put a hold on for uh also? Wait, somebody's asking if they could do hold on, I saw this pop up. If you could do half a swastika in one hand, is that an option? I will ask Dax. That's Clayton, that's Clayton Patterson's question.
+
+[17:03] I will ask Dax whether it's uh whether it's possible. Thinking outside of the slug shoebox there. Um what was the question? Ice icemaker. You ask I asked you like, oh yeah, I made you turn off the ice maker before we started because it was making this like uh high pitched sound last week, and then later I thought, uh oh, I never reminded him to turn that back on.
+
+[17:23] I hope that's not causing some issue. And then you said that your answer might be illuminating for the so like I have an ice maker in my house. It's like, you know, everyone chooses what their luxuries are. I have two luxuries. One of them isn't even that that hard to get anymore.
+
+[17:39] I have the Japanese toilet seat, which every living human being who has a toilet should get a Japanese toilet seat. Like if you if you don't like toilets, if you're like more of a poop in the hole, poop in a hole situation, then I guess forget it. But if you use a regular toilet, get a Japanese toilet seat. The second luxury is having a machine that makes ice for me in my house. And I use it to chill my seltzer and whatnot.
+
+[18:03] The problem is that they are incredibly wasteful ice machines because they keep running water uh all the time and they make noise all the time because they're running their compressor. So they're relatively wasteful. And my wife like has progressively over the past five years gotten more and more hatred for the sound of the ice machines. And it's a known problem that ice machines make noise, right? And so the one that I have, and Nastasia, we never got our monocles.
+
+[18:30] You were gonna get your I forget why you needed a monocle, but you totally did. You were like, Why can't you just fly to Belgium and get your mustang? Yeah, it was that's where the whole monocle thing came from was from you saying that like we could just jet out. Yeah, all right, whatever monocle lady, whatever. I will jet off to California.
+
+[18:49] Where's my monocle? That is uh yeah, Nastasia, you are the monocle lady. Anyway, like my because of like that whole attitude, oh if I want a jar of mustard, I will just land the plane in Belgium. Also, it's a little monocle to turn down a million bucks to eat the sea slug. It is but you until you see it, I really really don't know.
+
+[19:09] I have to say, yeah, the video was a little it didn't look like there it was just like size. Yeah, yeah. How big was that? It was kinda hard to tell. That was like six inches.
+
+[19:21] Yeah. Oh, that's wait. Wait, do I still get the money? No, I'm saying shoebox. I've seen shoebox sized sea slugs, and they are disgusting.
+
+[19:29] Speaking of things that are large and disgusting that I really, really, really want to eat, but only if they're legal to eat, is uh the coconut crab. I've discussed this before. It's the world's largest terrestrial crab. They are huge. It looks like someone put like a like uh uh uh an enlarging ray onto a hermit crab, and the thing just like went pow and blast its shell open and just got giant, and like they'll like hang out like on trees and on trash cans, and they're just big, big, big, but I hear they are tasty, tasty.
+
+[20:01] What isn't the largest extraterrestrial? Mommy underwater crab? I don't know, probably the king crab. I bet the king crab is probably bigger by weight, but it's a lot harder for a crab to exist hold hold on a second. The kids have locked the dog into a room.
+
+[20:17] Hold a second. When Dave says kids, they're like 18 and 17. Yes, yeah, yeah, yes, of course. Um I don't remember seeing these on the beaches of San Diego. Where were you seeing these?
+
+[20:32] Malibu. They were mostly in Malibu, and like it was they were everywhere. It looked like someone had killed bodies and like their organs were everywhere on the shelf. What are you talking about? Oh, I was just wondering where she saw these because I never saw them in San Diego, but yeah.
+
+[20:48] So anyway, uh ice machine. So the sh like the one that I have, and uh you know they pull out my monocle has what's called a boardroom setting. And then the boardroom setting, you can turn it off for like you push your button and it turns off for two, four, or six hours, depending on what you want, so that you can have your board meetings in silence, and then the ice machine comes back now. So it's nice. Yeah.
+
+[21:12] That's a good feature. It that's a good feature, yeah. So Jen comes in and um Yeah, Jen comes in and and puts the board, you know, when she w comes into the house after work, she just presses the you know, the boardroom feature and we have our nightly board meeting without the ice machine going. I was having flashbacks because it's a classic like radio freelancer thing. Well, they don't do it anymore because of COVID, but you used to do um what were called tape sinks where you go to people's houses and workplaces and record like one end of an interview while they're talking to somebody else elsewhere to get a high quality recording, and it's like a classic maneuver to want to kill their refrigerator while you're there.
+
+[21:52] And so you you you stick your keys in the fridge so that you don't forget because it's like huge faux pas to go to your interviewee's house, have them turn off the fridge, forget to warn them to turn it back on at the end, and then like leave and spoil all of their food. You're you don't you don't grenade your way out of out of those situations? Like once you get the interview, it's over. You're out of go flashbang fine done. Don't dump uh, you know, take a roll of paper towels into the into the bathroom, wad them up, throw them in the toilet, and drop a load on top and leave.
+
+[22:25] That's the move. Right? Yes, that's how you get repeat work. Yeah, well, no, the interviewee is not hiring. They're they're a chump.
+
+[22:34] They're like someone like like, you know, you or me who's being asked to be on someone else's show, it's over. Oh, you're still. And are they really gonna bring this up? Like, are they gonna complain about that? Like, come on.
+
+[22:43] They they they can't be sure that you intended to do it. Are they gonna like come back to that person who hired you and be like, I think that they intentionally poo-bombed my uh bathroom? I mean, I mean, it was the entire roll of paper towels. I don't see how you could do that by accident. Like poo bomb through a paper towel, poo bomb through a pile of paper towels means you are going in there with gloves.
+
+[23:06] There's no other way to do it. This show has just from start to finish been things that like technically are kid friendly, I guess, but like really aren't. On a separate, we don't say curse words, but we teach kids. But we but we like talk about Nazis and you know, whatever. Hey, Nazis were real, man.
+
+[23:25] And they were real completely off limits with all this. A lot of violence. Whoa, curses. Anyway, uh another thing I've been noticing, people have been asking me uh a lot of cookbook recommendations on uh Twitter and whatnot. Do not forget that Kitchen Arts and Letters exists for the reason of telling you which cookbooks are good for a particular application.
+
+[23:51] So try calling them and talking to them, but then please also buy the book from them. For the extra freaking $10 for that book, can you just buy it from Kitchen Arts and Letters, please? Kitchen Arts and Letters in the 90s on Lex in Manhattan, they'll pick up the phone, they'll talk to you, they'll give you an excellent recommendation that will fit. You tell them what your parameters are. They're like a bartender for books.
+
+[24:12] You tell them what your parameters are, and they will tell you in their vast experience of doing nothing but reading cookbooks all day, like which one of those books is gonna be ideal for you, right? Right? Anyway. And the answer is probably liquid intelligence. Oh, that's that's always the answer.
+
+[24:28] I've been looking for a book on uh on roasting a chicken. Have you tried liquid intelligence? Right? Yeah. No, I get not I I get nothing out of it.
+
+[24:37] Anyway, uh, all right. Alright. Also on a note, uh, after last week or the week before, people have been trying out um putting their bread when it comes out of the oven into their vacuum machine, and people have been getting good results. Currispy crust. So, like I'm uh I'm trying to figure out if any of you guys run experiments uh on uh putting your bread, remember to put something around it, like a super bag or put it in a paper bag or shield it somehow from not destroying, not destroying, but infiltrening the inside of your vacuum machine.
+
+[25:08] Um but when I do it, I do it on full vacuum because I'm trying to boil it and and get it to go down. Everyone tell me what your results or experiments are. I wouldn't try it on bread you didn't want that like a Pullman loaf where you know aren't looking for a thick crust. But if you're trying for a crusty bread, let me know what your results are. I want to run some tests, get some parameters.
+
+[25:25] Um and another thing I uh I'm working on, uh people ask me a lot of pressure, pressure cooker questions. Usually, although not so much here. People ask me like uh elsewhere. When was the last time we had a pressure cooker question, Nastasia? I don't know.
+
+[25:38] Been a while, but yeah. Um so I've been running into the uh I've been running into the issue of um like having liquids that are too thick that that for some reason don't build up pressure until the temperature is too high. So I'm working on this for the for the book. So if you have any questions about pressure cookers and how they work on the inside, now's a good time to ask me because I'm gonna be drilling holes in the top of one of my pressure cookers and putting all a bunch of monitors in and doing a bunch of tests. So if you ever needed a test run on the inside of a pressure cooker to figure out what's going on, ask me now because I'm gonna be uh doing that kind of work uh as we go on.
+
+[26:23] Now, John, when he's back, said he was gonna get an oyster person on, but we had uh so someone asked us a question about apparently when you're shucking oysters, occasionally you'll get these little crabs on the inside. Someone said, Can you eat can you can you eat them? And uh we had uh Eric Strode, well, Eric, we're gonna get uh an oyster shucker on to talk about it. But Eric Strode, who who does shellfish farming research, wrote in, and someone that's gonna give it to you here. Uh sorry, Spencer Roberts.
+
+[26:51] Eric Strode asked the original question. Spencer Roberts uh gave me the answer. Spencer Roberts from Philadelphia, the the shellfish uh farming expert. Greetings from Philadelphia. Uh the last week of January, the topic of oyster crabs came up.
+
+[27:03] Uh working uh in the shellfish farming and research worlds for five plus years. I have some info, a few tips, and opinions. Uh oyster crabs or pea crabs uh represent a couple of species. Pinotheries and zeops ostrius, and can be found in bivalve shellfish like mussels, clams, and oysters. These crabs find their way into the bivalve shells as larvae and live inside of the bivalve, stealing food from its host as both grow.
+
+[27:30] They can be found in many coastal waters, and depending on the environmental and or ecological conditions, can be fairly common. Totally edible. They are totally edible as long as they are still alive when you sh uh shuck or cook the shellfish. But of course, if you cook it and only find it later, how are you gonna know? Yep.
+
+[27:48] Uh, you know, how you gonna know? So uh, unless you shuck your own oysters, you may never see them since raw bars almost always remove them before serving. Um some people uh set them aside while shucking to cook up later. When shucking oysters, I prefer to eat them as I go. That said, I would avoid eating if they are already dead and sad when you open up the oyster.
+
+[28:07] Mean, I mean, I mean, sad in what sense? You mean like limp? You mean like not lively? Not like, I mean, I'm sure they're it, you know, to the extent that crabs have emotions. And there's been, by the way, so many papers on whether.
+
+[28:22] Do you guys know the difference between nociception and and pain? No. Do you remember you talking about this? That's close enough. But so for Matt's benefit, and anyone who wasn't listening to that episode, or I don't know whether it was episode of real life, nociception just means that something that you and I would uh interpret as noxious, right?
+
+[28:44] That it is avoided, right? So a you know, a machine can be adapted to do uh nociceptive behavior. Pain is a mental state. And so, like, there's been a lot of research, especially by uh, you know, people who are interested in uh animal rights, animal welfare, on what kind of animals can experience pain versus straight nociception. And some people believe that crabs, so assuming if a small crab can do it, a large crab can do it, hermit crabs were tested, whether hermit crabs can feel uh pain.
+
+[29:12] So the the point being that uh to the extent though that pain, that there's some sense of sadness or some sense of ennui in a crab, if you were gonna pop open uh uh its house, you know what I mean? It's gonna be sad no matter what. But I'm guessing that my attitude as the popper would be like free ride's over, baby, right? I mean, like it's been living off of this bivalve for how whoever knows how long. Free ride's over.
+
+[29:38] Anyway. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh if I'm gonna go down, I'm taking you down with me. Yeah.
+
+[29:43] Uh, in things you're more likely to cook like clams or mussels, the cooked crabs add a nice crunchy bit. I highly recommend saving and trying next time shucking or cooking uh your bivalve mollusk, friends. Uh, nice. All right, that's good advice from uh Spencer Roberts. We appreciate it.
+
+[29:59] Spencer had a qu an unrelated question because that wasn't a question, Nastasia, so this is not two questions. Sichuan peppercorns will come up a few times on the show, especially about them blowing out your taste buds. I get this effect from Sichuan peppercorns and things uh sometimes from spicy mustard uh and other such things. Is there a way to negate this effect or speed up restoring your taste buds or just do you have to deal with it? Now I was trying to get McGee on for a different question that we have coming on later or maybe you know we'll get uh um a perception scientist on but the interesting thing is uh Sichuan pepper corns like the all of these things are and this goes back to no seception and pain these go back to pain receptors um and like you know heat receptors in some cases for things like capsation um but Sichuan peppercorns so mustard and capsation and things like that tend to hit similar channels in your in your like nerve channels right Sichuan peppercorns there's a um an article called Pungent agents from Sichuan peppers uh excite sensory neurons by inhibiting two poor potassium channels in 2008 which uh seems to indicate that uh the Sichuan peppercorns hit a different target than things like mustard or horseradish or um or capsation or things like this so you probably can't choose one thing that's gonna knock out uh that's gonna knock out the both of them anyway uh but you know next time I have someone who knows this stuff for sure uh I will ask uh also there's a uh New Yorker uh bivalve poem that Spencer gave us too long to read now you got that Nastasia already, right?
+
+[31:32] Hey, did I answer the question about the about uh John S trying to make uh trying to make uh pear cocktail before? Did I answer that? I don't think so. I don't think so. So Giannis Theodis is trying to make a pear cocktail, doesn't have a centrifuge, and is wondering what you know how to up the pear flavor, right?
+
+[31:54] And I don't know, I thought I said something about this. Pear flavor is very difficult to work with because pear flavor is very light, right? So like people use overripe pears in distillation and you get a lot of the aroma effects, but especially in kind of cocktails, it can be difficult for something to be like pear, right? So, like, you know, at the bar, well, back when I had a bar, we bought uh like comise pears, which are very aromatic, right? And then we we um clari we waited until they were like just at the peak point of ripeness, but before they started fading.
+
+[32:31] We clarified them and we just used a bunch of the pear juice, like a bunch, and that's how we were able to get like a really big pear flavor. We chose one of the most high flavored pears you could get, and then we you know used a boatload of it. And you don't have that because A, you can't clarify a bunch of juice because you don't have a centrifuge. Um, but B, you're not adding that much of the pear product to it. So I I would say you're gonna be more likely better bolstering with like heaps of dried pears, but those are gonna give kind of more cooked and dried aromas.
+
+[33:02] But you got a tough, you got a tough road, uh, a tough road for yourself. Does that make make sense, guys? Yeah. Yes. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy to use just egg.
+
+[33:28] You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U.S. slash H R N. That's J U.S. slash H R N.
+
+[33:41] Made from plants. Just Egg is a better egg for you and for the planet. It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable. Just egg uses less water and generates fewer carbon emissions.
+
+[33:57] Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J U.S. H R N. That's J-U.S.
+
+[34:13] slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble. Great for omelets, frittadas, stir-fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre-baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads.
+
+[34:34] Chef Jose Andres calls Just Egg mind-blowing and bon appetite. Says, it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.st slash H R N. Patrick Chocone wrote in, Dear Cooking Issues Gang, I recently acquired a Rotobroil 400, the 1950s countertop rotisserie, long championed by Jeffrey Steingarten.
+
+[35:06] So the Roto Broil 400 is, it looks like like a 50s, like an airstream trailer, or like you know, like a 50s toaster, like a lot of chrome, and then straight out of the side of it, you shove a stick that the or you know it goes in and out, a stick that the rotisserie is on, and you open the front just like a toaster oven. You put the stick in, you close the door, and it rotates the stick and acts like a little uh rotisserie for things like chicken. And uh Jeffrey Steingarden in the 90s, I guess, um, you know, decided that he loved the roto broil and like 90s or early 2000s, and just got like whole bunches of roto broils uh in you know in his uh in his inventory and went through them. And I think he wrote wrote a lot about them. They're kind of cool little pieces of equipment made by I believe by Ron Popeel, who uh you guys are familiar with Ron Popeel, right?
+
+[35:59] Yes. Matt? No. No. You don't know Ron Popeel, like like uh Ron Popeel is like the inventor, a lot of them kitchen gadgets that like all people who make crazy kitchen gadgets probably like aspire to.
+
+[36:15] Like he was the he's like uh like a mixture of like Edison and P.T. Barnum, who went on TV and sold like a whole bunch of like crazy Ronco brand uh, you know, kitchen gadgets that are of questionable utility or need. So, you know, just like Nastasi and I. Basically, like we are we are the we are busted Popeels, right? We're we're like we are like worthless Popeils.
+
+[36:39] Is that true, Nastasia? Would you say that? Yes. Yeah. All right.
+
+[36:42] So uh can we is is someone chefing behind you? Uh hold on. I mean, it is very, it's like very on theme. Yeah. To have actual cooking.
+
+[36:57] What I have two kids in this house and two dogs, and I can't get them for one hour a week. When do your kids just become adults? How old do they have to be? They're always your kids, Nastasi. I don't know if you know this.
+
+[37:09] Oh, you can't just abandon them at some point? Good Lord. If I live to be a billion and they are a billion minus 30, then they are still my kids. Okay. And I still have that 30 years on them.
+
+[37:23] Yeah. 33 or whatever it is. Yeah. I think she was maybe going after something slightly different than the technical definition of kill children. But what was she going after then?
+
+[37:35] First of all, like my you know, my kids are like my kids are still in high school, so they're still living here. And and nowadays, it's not like when I was a kid. Like, people live with their parents now until they're like 90. You know what I mean? So like I don't even know what the world's gonna be like.
+
+[37:49] I have no idea. You know what I mean? When I was your boy, you you went to school, you got out of the house. You were you were done. You were off the teeth.
+
+[38:00] You know what I mean? Uh-huh. But that's just not the way it works for anyone anymore, I don't think. Uh, I don't know. Was that was that what you were in what were you implying, Nastasia?
+
+[38:10] What rude thing were you implying? Just let me know what rude thing you're implying, so I know what I'm dealing with. So when you, you know, I just imagine that if I had the same thing going on here, I would never hear the end of it. Well, well, you don't say like you can hear me saying negative things to them in the real life to try to ameliorate it. Yes.
+
+[38:30] I I'm I don't think it's acceptable. Yeah. Right? I only get angry at people that I'm working with when they somehow when things that are unacceptable are happening and they somehow deem them acceptable. That's the problem.
+
+[38:42] Like, if you had someone like doing a spinning plate routine in the background, and the plates were constantly falling on the ground. That was their job. And we had a little salaried by Booker and Dax to do the spinning plate thing. Not during but I would never have someone salary to do this job during the show unless it was part of the show. And we have the one hour a week when we're supposed to be focusing on this.
+
+[39:06] And there is how m wait, what is seven times twenty-four? There's seven times tw there's six times twenty-four other hours. No, sorry. Six times twenty-four plus twenty-three other hours in the week that they can spin plates and break them. So it's like what if I were doing this from prison and my cellmate had to like.
+
+[39:26] We do expect that when when you're eventually No no no, no. When you go to prison for whatever may happen, you do need to keep doing the show. And that phone call is going to be expensive by the way. Do you not do you know how much they charge for those calls? By the way.
+
+[39:39] Yeah, they're very expensive. Nastasia, you you get a prison pass. Whatever's happening in the background, like that giant hulking person being like, enough on the phone. That person, it's fine. It's all good.
+
+[39:52] Okay. When you guys hire the spinning plate person, you should set it up like anti-piece work. Like they should get deductions in pay based on how many plates they break. Yeah. Well, I don't know.
+
+[40:02] Isn't the only salary plate? Isn't the most important thing to do? Salary is not a good uh schema here. No? What oh since when are you since when are you dance monkey dance on people?
+
+[40:14] You're not supposed to like create perverse incentives where like you're supposed to pay someone a living wage and let them just do their job, not be like, you're not you you've broken three plates, no money for you. I mean, that's ridiculous. What is this? Oh wow. I didn't realize you guys were so terrible.
+
+[40:32] Then you have to keep buying them plate. I don't know. I don't know. Look, they either need to get better within a certain amount of time, or you fire them, but you don't keep them working as a plate spinner and then just not paying them because they're breaking your plates. That is immoral.
+
+[40:46] Put your resumes in the chat, listeners, for uh plates the plate spinning position. Be like and you'll live with me. So be like Jenny, Jenny, you you broke you broke too many plates. If you if you break this many plates next week, I have to say we're gonna have to let you go. That's fair.
+
+[41:04] That's fair. You've had a bad couple of weeks, you're not up to your game anymore. I think you've lost the knack, Jenny. You know what I mean? That's fair.
+
+[41:13] That's fair, you know? Uh all right. Back to the roto broil, which we haven't even read the question yet. Uh okay. On a test spit on a test spit roast run, what do you think about the word spit roast, Nastasia?
+
+[41:28] Uh, I think it's fine, because whatever. It's got a lot of right, spit roasting. Yeah. Also, I want to try out there's this, there's this um radio host in LA on a public radio thing, and she always sounds incredibly happy. Like everything she says is just incredibly happy and smiling and laughing.
+
+[41:49] Like, even when she says, like, it's Black History Month. Like, I want to try that out. But she does it in the real life. She's not kidding. She's not kidding.
+
+[41:57] So, what do you think's actually going on in her head? I think she's just like that. Do you think she's the doctor from The Simpsons? No, I think she's just I think she's just happy. I think she's just happy.
+
+[42:07] You think she's legitimately happy about like wildfires or whatever she's discussing? Everything. So you want to have her on the show? No, without warning us, you should adopt that demeanor for one full episode of cooking it. Yeah.
+
+[42:14] I don't know. I would be frightened I would send an ambulance to her house. I think it makes some people happy. Mm-hmm. What?
+
+[42:27] I think it would make some some of our listeners happy. If what? I sent an ambulance to your house. No, if I if I adopted that personality. She's like a very bubbly female.
+
+[42:38] I would I would like to. I mean, d is it isn't she isn't she in female kind of redundant? Well, like she's she's very much in her female element, you know. Like she's so what I'm I'm trying to get what you're implying. I'm trying to get what you're implying.
+
+[42:53] What you're saying, feminine energy is high. Like there's no. The implication I'm getting, which I guess I'm wrong, yeah, is that you're saying that she is playing a particular stereotype up that you think certain men who listen to our show would enjoy from you. In other words, there's a barb here. There's an attack.
+
+[43:11] There's no barb. That it I mean to me, I take that as an attack on that I mean, that's how I read it. Oh no. I just no. You're saying that like a bunch of men listening to our show want you to be fake and therefore would want you to adopt what you perceive as a fake hyperfeminine personality.
+
+[43:28] That is what I get you saying. That is the implication. Yeah, but I think that's a terri yeah, I like I I think it's like a horrible. That's a horrible thing to say. No, but that's a horrible thing to say about our listeners anyway.
+
+[43:40] Oh, I'm sorry. No, you're not. I'm gonna try it. Why? Because I want to.
+
+[43:49] What is it you said about Maria? Uh you just want to be mean. No, I don't. She was authentically herself, and I'm being authentically myself by wanting to buy something different. Yeah, no.
+
+[44:01] By being by you it's has something to do with sticking it to these people somehow in a way that cuts off my nose despite your face. Nastasi is a genius. Let's get her on the show and talk to her about it. Why not? Why not?
+
+[44:19] No. Because she has her own program and she's So what? No. No. Why not?
+
+[44:25] Nope, nope, nope, nope. She's like very good. Also, you can find like what if she's she could be miserable. You're gonna find out, you know, you don't wanna like it. Yeah, well, I don't want to don't meet your idols.
+
+[44:36] Yeah, yeah. Well, we don't get to meet her. She's gonna call into a zoom thing. Whatever. Whatever.
+
+[44:43] Clayton has popped into the chat again to defend Nastasia's right to say whatever she wants about the listeners. They're on team Nastasia. I think there's a free there's like a free Nastasium. Yeah, there's a movie will be coming out. Well, let me ask you a question.
+
+[44:57] Free free Nastasia from what? I don't know. We gotta ask the listeners. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna find out.
+
+[45:02] We're gonna get to the bottom of this. Oh, because one thing I know for sure is Nastasia never speaks her mind. I mean, she doesn't on the show. It's true. I speak about 30% of my mind.
+
+[45:17] Yeah. Wow. Uh I mean, when we're just talking, though. No, I think in life. Like how much how much how often do you guys tell the truth?
+
+[45:27] Me? Yeah. Are you like it's too difficult to lie? I would just rather say nothing. So if I don't want to say anything and someone says, I'm like, mmm.
+
+[45:38] That must be very effective. I don't I'm not gonna answer this question because I'm alright. You made me look bad with the I would steal drugs from my friends thing last week. I'm not doing this again. Rightly so.
+
+[45:49] But look, Matt, I I knew that answer, and I don't fault you for it because I know that that is what people like it's it's a hundred percent what someone no one I know would say I wouldn't do that. I've never lied. Oh, come on, please. Please. That's the yeah.
+
+[46:06] Anyway, point being whatever. All right, back to the can we get back to the we're back on the roto broil now, people? Yep. Alright. Yeah.
+
+[46:16] On a test spit roast run, it performed really well, but after an hour on high, the plug became extremely hot and started melting the plastic on the electric receptacle. And on high is what you'll get if you try to send a f uh a friend drugs through Matthew because he'll be taking all of your drugs and getting high on. That's exactly what he said. I wasn't gonna take it there, remember? Matt, you did not say that.
+
+[46:44] I didn't say exactly that. Okay. He's gonna take the drugs and then put them on the counter to use them as like a prop. Yeah. I'm shooting a short film.
+
+[46:53] Yeah. On drugs. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[46:57] Uh the plug has become extremely hot and started melting the plastic on the electric receptacle. Now, here's my question, Patrick. But I the answer is gonna be the same regardless. Uh, but uh the question is, is are you talking about it's getting hot at the wall or getting hot at where it's going into the into the roto broil? I'm gonna guess, based on what you're saying, um, that the it's getting hot at the wall, but it doesn't matter.
+
+[47:20] The answer's gonna be the same anyway. Would upgrading to a modern grounded cable help, or is the issue it's not the grounding that's the issue. Uh, or is the issue just it's overloading the circuit? It was running on a 20-amp uh GFCI, which is what the wiring is for in all my kitchen outlets. I would like to use this thing, but don't want to burn the house down.
+
+[47:37] Burning down the house? You like that? You like them, Stas or no? No, not really. Why you don't like talking heads?
+
+[47:43] Really? Okay. Did you not ever whatever? Too much, too much to get into. Uh also, when are you going to have Steingarden back on the show?
+
+[47:51] Best Patrick uh Chicone. I don't, you know what? I haven't spoken to Steingarden in years. You, Stas? No, Dave.
+
+[47:57] No. Again, you talk to plenty of people that uh I talked to without uh just talking to me, so I don't know. Uh I never know. Nastasi's like, you don't talk to anyone. I talk to everyone.
+
+[48:08] So why was that an unreasonable thing for me to ask? I haven't talked about them a lot, but whatever. Anyway. Um, here's what's happening. Uh, first of all, be careful with older cords and plugs.
+
+[48:18] Older fabric cords are an old wiring. Uh the installation on old wiring, because of its heat resistance, are full of asbestos. So don't cut through them and like, you know, sit there and snap them and inhale them and do all that stuff. Just take the machinery apart, unscrew the terminals and remove them and then dispose of them because they do contain asbestos. Any fabric cord uh or any uh like woven-looking insulation made prior to about 1972?
+
+[48:54] Uh 70, 72, 73, anything in that era, asbestos, that's just a hundred percent. Also, don't file or sand the standoffs inside of uh things like toasters, hairdryers, any sort of heat equipment, anything that looks relatively ceramic-y or fabric-y, if it's made before 1970, I'd be safe, let's say 74. Anything made before that and after 1910 is made with asbestos. So just don't turn it into dust, right? Okay.
+
+[49:29] Secondly, what happens over time with electrical connections is that you get a little bit of corrosion. And uh like like a patina, let's say, like like the Statue of Liberty style patina. Uh and a lot of this stuff is copper, and a lot of especially the older stuff wasn't uh tinned over with things that are uh resistant to um uh patina and buildup, right? So modern things they're they're tinned with uh things that don't corrode, uh and then the bulk of your uh connector will still be copper, so you get the great, you know, you get the great uh low resistance of copper and the corrosion resistance on on the things like your plugs. That's why your plugs now are all silvery.
+
+[50:08] Old ones aren't, they're just copper. And when they corrode, they become resistors. When they become resistors, they not only suck power, so your your unit's not gonna get as hot as it used to be, but they themselves get incredibly hot. So um the old circulators, the old immersion circulators used to have removable what's called like uh equipment plugs, like ones for computers in the back. And those connectors, uh a lot of them aren't tinned on the inside.
+
+[50:33] So if you use those, the moisture would corrode them over time, and as they get corroded, they become resistors, and when you have all of that current passing through the resistor, it heats up by quite a lot. And so I would have the entire back side of the circulator melt. You replace the cord and you know, rewire the part of the plastic housing that's melt melted, and it works fine again. And I'm gonna say the same thing is gonna be true of your roto broil. You just put a new cord on that thing and you're good to go.
+
+[51:03] You can measure the resistance just to make sure it's not pulling more than it's 20, but it's not it, it's clearly not, otherwise it would have popped your G uh your GFI. Uh so I think you're good. Just replace it and beware of the asbestos. Good answer or not good answer. Good answer.
+
+[51:17] Mm-hmm. Nick Root wrote in. Uh long time listener. Uh I'm a neuroscientist. Uh Nastasi, this person's defending you.
+
+[51:25] You ready for it? You're ready. I can't wait. See whether you agree with this defense. What is it?
+
+[51:30] I don't understand where the snark is coming from. I really don't. I really don't get it. She's in, she's in a I think Nastasi's in a good mood today. Yeah.
+
+[51:40] I just think she's already doing the thing where she's um being like more jovial. Yeah. Lady. Say it, Dave. Lady!
+
+[51:52] Um, but the um yeah, so the uh in a pre in a previous life, I was like some sort of like goofball like vaudeville singing dance man. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, or like the guy who gets you the cracker jacks at the ball field. Like you you would have been really good at that. I thought you were doing Jerry Lee Lee.
+
+[52:11] Peanuts. Yeah, yeah. But that's what that's where he comes from. Peanuts, peanuts, yeah, hot nuts, hot nuts. Get your hot nuts right here, hot nuts.
+
+[52:23] Like that? Yeah, like that. Yeah. Uh if you're looking for another gig, you know. I mean, Anastasia and I might be looking for another gig very soon.
+
+[52:34] You know, considering that we're selling nothing on Amazon. Your book isn't selling anywhere. Yeah. My for like my publisher was like, yeah, people would buy the book, but let's not print it. They did print it.
+
+[52:50] It's just, you know, book on the water. It's taking forever for that book to get over here and get into this stuff. So Liquid Intelligence is out of stock. The Sears All is in stock, but Amazon has decided that unless it's certified astronaut proof. Because what they're asking for, they're asking us literally, Nastasia, they're asking, and they send Nastasia all these emails.
+
+[53:17] You must certify that it passes the UL certification for a torch. And we say to them, Nastasia, what do we say to them? It's not a torch. It's not a torch. And they're like, yeah, but it still has to pass the torch certification.
+
+[53:31] So we're like, okay. So we go to a testing lab and we're like, hey, will you test this thing as though it was a torch? And what does the lab say, Nastasia? Hell no. It's not a torch.
+
+[53:41] Hell no, that's not a torch. I'm like, well, how about my car keys? Will you will you test my car keys as a torch? And they're like, no, those are car keys, not a torch. And then Amazon's like, yeah, but you can't sell your car keys unless they're certified as a safe torch.
+
+[53:58] And then they called it a menstrual cup again, and we were like, uh Have we discussed this on air yet? What? That one, that part's new. That part is new. Okay, okay, okay.
+
+[54:08] Do you want to do this, Nastasia? Oh, me? Alright. So they send Nastasia. First of all, it's it's it's it's kind of hilarious because Nastasia, Nastasia gets directly.
+
+[54:19] So Nastasia will send all these WTF emails to like the the the Bezos crowd, and and every once in a while, uh someone in his orbit or him sees one of these emails and then directs someone else to solve quote unquote solve the problem. And nine, well, three times out of four in our Amazon lives, this has solved the problem, right? They get the Jeff B. Bizos question mark uh one. This is the only time that that we have not that it has gone to that level and not been solved.
+
+[54:46] So what happens is is that my mental picture of Amazon is that you think of it as like a computer online thing, but really it's just a pachinko machine of idiots, okay? And like Jeff Bezos is smart in his crew, right? They launch the ball, right? And then it goes up and then ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. And so you get all these different responses, but it always ends up in the same cup, right?
+
+[55:12] And so Nastasia will go through like a a 20 email chain, and it always ends with this. We have come to the conclusion that it needs to be certified by a UL lab to or uh, you know, the UL certified lab to uh UL safety standard. They always do the 147, which is the torch, and then after that, they append this paragraph. If it is a toothbrush, it needs to be certified to blah blah blah. And if it is a menstrual cup, it needs to contain EPA, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[55:41] And we're like, menstrual cup? Are they listening to anything? And then Nastasia and I were like, can we get it certified as a menstrual cup? I mean, it's it's vaguely cup-shaped. Can we get it certified as a chastity belt?
+
+[55:53] Is there some sort of thing we can get it certified as? The menstrual cup email has come through three, three or four times now. Yeah, but Nastasia's launched that pachinko ball like three times in different places. And it always falls back into the cup. Yeah.
+
+[56:10] And every time we get the menstrual cup thing, we're just like, first of all, like not to be someone who knows nothing, but what it what exactly is it is a menstrual cup actually a thing? Yeah. Yes, yes, it is a thing. A cup, but it's it is is a similar use to like pads. You put it inside of your vaginal cavity and it collects the blood, and then you take it out and you wash out the blood.
+
+[56:34] And it's it's considered what, more eco-friendly than tampons or pads, or like what's the advantage? Oh, it's more it's an eco-friendly situation. Alright. Okay. So it's a lot like the Sears All, really.
+
+[56:45] Yeah. I mean, I now feel now that I know, I thought it was an externally applied cup. Nope. Now I feel bad even suggesting having it be a menstrual cup. You know, you've made me feel bad about even suggesting that it's a menstrual cup.
+
+[57:01] But all right. Back to uh how the hell did we get on this? I don't know. I'm not clear. I mean, usually I usually I can look back the tunnel of where we've been to see where this has come from and somehow bring it back to where we needed to go.
+
+[57:18] But I have to admit, the menstrual cup has thrown me off my game. Oh, I have no idea. When I edit the episode, I'll find out and be amazed, I'm sure. Yeah. Alright.
+
+[57:29] So, where we were, I don't know how we got to where we ended, but where we were, we were talking about Nick Root, who uh oh, oh yes, I I remember now. Was uh defending Nastasia's idea of sunlight, and Nastasia decided to be snarky about it. That's what happened. Yeah. Longtime cooking issues listener.
+
+[57:50] I'm a neuroscientist studying multi-sensory processing, how different senses interact when we perceive the world. And I thought I'd offer an alternative hypothesis about the sunlight in New York debacle. Not debate, debacle. What what? Wait, did you go, huh?
+
+[58:08] Yeah, I don't understand. Like that proof? So like that. You're like, got him. Got him now.
+
+[58:13] It's a debacle. Yeah. It is a debacle. Um, hey, have you got I forget the name, someone remember it. There's an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie where it's the worst Arnold Schwarzenegger movie ever.
+
+[58:25] Well, no, that's not true. Not even close. But it is, it was after Terminator, but before he got really good at like commando and stuff like this. And he is a uh he's a cop who has to go into witness protection, and his wife is there, and she's all 80s out, and it's like terrible stereotypical, like, you know, wife roll, Arnold Schwarzenegger role thing. And she is day drinking hard, like hard day drinking.
+
+[58:53] And she's pissed if she has to live in this hellhole town because she's from New York. Anyway, and so she throws, she bakes in it a cake for him, a big old cake, and then throws the entire cake. He does like the Mike Tyson like head bob where he head bobs his thing and the cake smashes against the the rear, like the cabinetry, and he goes, You should not drink and bake. And so now, like whenever I'm baking and I have a glass of wine, I'm like, you should not drink and bake. Anyway.
+
+[59:21] Uh, all right. Our brains, this is from Nick again. Our brains often combine sensory informations in ways you might not expect. So this is a mental integration argument. For example, by altering the frequencies uh slash amplitudes of sounds that you hear, we can make you think a stale potato chip is crispy and vice versa.
+
+[59:39] Yes, I've read these studies. Perhaps in the same way, your brain, i.e. Nastasia's brain, is incorporating temperature into its estimate of sunlight. This has been shown in laboratory conditions. Subjects judge warmer rooms to be more brightly lit, even if they have the same lighting.
+
+[59:54] If the west side of Manhattan is slightly warmer than the east side at sunset, and I can imagine several reasons why this might be true, then maybe you perceive it as being brighter for longer, even though the physical light is the same. Best Nick. What are your thoughts? Yeah. You agree?
+
+[1:00:08] Yeah. Maybe. I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe that's true. Okay. Laughing Cow wrote in via Instagram Hey, uh, any resources you can point me to for cookware recommendations for starters.
+
+[1:00:21] Hmm. So, like, usually cookware recommendations, uh, I mean, like, I this is a very wide question. I feel like we could, I feel like we could get, maybe we should. I mean, John's not here, so he's no one's taking notes, and no one's gonna tell me to work on this later. But John's listening from jury duty.
+
+[1:00:39] Yeah, right. Yeah, sure. He's watching somebody get horribly like beaten to death right now. I'm sure he's doing some terrible work. Anyway, um, we should just have, I think it would be an interesting episode if we just will get like two or three, you know, different style of people on, and we'll all discuss what makes a good starting uh battery kitchen battery, battery de cuisine, uh, in in your house, because I'm sure we all have different takes.
+
+[1:01:07] And usually, like some old school like soup to nuts cookbooks will start with this, right? So you can look at those kind of series. But I think it'd be an interesting, uh, you think it'd be an interesting episode, Nastasia, or no? Yeah, I guess so. I don't know.
+
+[1:01:20] It depends on like it's all about money, isn't it? No, because no matter what, you need to start, right? So it's like, what do you start with if you have a lot of money? What do you so like at the beginning of Liquid Intelligence? I have like the you know, three levels of bar kit.
+
+[1:01:29] And a lot of bar people do this because they know that you're have to buy a bunch of stuff that you don't necessarily already have. So I feel in bar books there's a lot more of this kind of like buy these things first, then these, then these. And a lot of cookbooks are like start with this knife and this pan and then work your way up, but like, you know, like the kind of like the the list of what you would buy in what order depending on how much money you have. I think it's always an interesting question. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:02:00] And I think people have different a attitudes on it. Um, I don't know, I think it'll be fun. We just have to get the uh we have to get a group of people that have different enough opinions that it's that it's fun. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[1:02:12] Yeah. Okay, KK Husky wrote in, hey, I have a question about carbonation, which I could not find in your book, Earmus, Stas. Uh, I cannot get the same level of carbonation from an EC soda bottle, the the one with the wire mesh on the outside, uh, as simple uh as as you can in a simply in a used sprite bottle. Is there a trick to it? Uh yeah, they just those things just don't work right.
+
+[1:02:33] I mean, I'm sorry, they don't work right. But here's the trick. The problem is is that those old school seltzer bottles have uh like a dipstick that goes down to the bottom. So they're actually taking seltzer from the bottom, and the reason they're doing that is because you're not supposed to open it. You're supposed to take it three stooges style and spray someone with the with the with the sprayer, or like you know, like Bugs Bunny used to do.
+
+[1:02:54] So, like that's why that thing is there. But the that problem is is it means you can't vent them properly. So if you really want good seltzer out of one of those things, and you must have the nyak nyuck nyuc nuc, right? Put a charger into it, do the charger, shake it, turn it, make sure it's cold as ugh, cold, cold. Then turn it upside down.
+
+[1:03:15] You hearing me? Upside down. Not right side up, upside down. Vent it, vent the gas out. You're now getting rid of all the oxygen and the air and all that nastiness.
+
+[1:03:25] You don't need to vent 100%, but vent it until it's bubbling on the inside. Turn it right side up, make sure it's cold, hit it with another charger, and that's the best you can do with that system. All right. Was that fast enough, Stas, or no? Yeah.
+
+[1:03:38] It was good. All right. Uh also we gotta go pretty soon. Uh okay. CN Linden wrote in via Instagram.
+
+[1:03:47] Uh Dave uh and Nastasia and Matt, have you addressed on cooking issues the dragon's breath fad of eating cereal super cooled? I don't do cereal, I do like marshmallows, with liquid nitrogen that they sell in the mall. Oh, yeah, they used to sell it in the mall. I I gave a whole talk in Harvard on this. I know you've given so many warnings on your show about the dangers of liquid nitrogen.
+
+[1:04:07] How can this be safe? Thanks, Chad Linden from Georgetown, Kentucky. Uh by the way, most podcasts I can listen in uh at 1.2x or 1.4x speed, but you already talk so fast it's impossible. Oh yeah, I win. Uh Stas, have we talked about the accident on the show?
+
+[1:04:23] Which one? Uh yeah, we have it a long time ago. No, the the recent one, the long the liquid nitrogen accident down south. Oh no. Did you?
+
+[1:04:33] Well, there's at a poultry plant, a lick a liquid nitrogen line ruptured. There wasn't apparently, I haven't read the after all the after action reports. I don't think they exist yet, but uh a bunch of people, like six people died from asphyxiation, and uh I sounds like they didn't have adequate training or adequate alarm warnings, but um that look, that that's not a danger that's gonna happen in in this case. The danger that we're talking about here is cold burns. And the reason that you can eat a marshmallow that's been chilled with liquid nitrogen uh or anything that has a low um basically what you need is it needs to be very lightweight, needs to uh not have any water in it.
+
+[1:05:15] And if you have those two things, it's like mainly air uh and or mainly uh mainly air and no water, uh there's just not enough energy present, you know, not enough uh thermal mass present to give you a cold burn, and that's why they work. So if you were to take something that had water in it and put it in liquid nitrogen, and you would ruin your tongue, like you would do damage like for a long time. Uh, and that's why it, you know, you really just need to be careful of what you're what you're doing. I did a whole talk at Harvard about the there in Florida where they had these stores in the mall years ago, uh, there was a whole bunch of uh people who uh wrote a bunch of very wrong things about safety, and it got picked up by news reports and then picked up by um pseudoscience weasels saying that it was real, and I traced the entire history of that. So if you look on my uh the Harvard lectures that I've done with Harold McGee at the beginning, they're all online, I believe, the public lectures.
+
+[1:06:15] One of them is devoted entirely to the specific problem of people not understanding um dragon's breath uh in malls. All right. Uh did you, Nastasia, did you on this week's on this week's uh newsletter, did you put Devin Patel's uh uh bartender Posta Troll poem in or no? That was in last uh no, it's supposed to well, did you do your newsletter part already? I mean, I talked to you about it.
+
+[1:06:43] You didn't seem whether you like whether you liked my ideas or not you didn't tell me wait are you writing it or am I writing it for you? I can write it I can write it you can say whether you like the idea or not all right oh also Claire Claire wants to come on the show at some point and talk about intermittent fasting Claire can come on whenever she wants as long as she knows that I'm probably gonna be like yeah no I don't think she knows that yeah but you said that not that I'm one of the only people that has that reaction to her yeah your son loves her I'm not saying I don't like her I'm not an anti-Claire I have this thing where like there are certain people that like I like I react to them differently from other people you know what I mean and I don't really understand I don't really understand why anyway uh so listen uh Jill Kabika wrote in and we in not only do we not have time I don't have the knowledge but there's a lot of um and this this is another thing maybe we can do this for next week's show if we can get it together but especially because of COVID there are a lot of people dealing with anosmia where they can't smell anymore and Jen had a version of that for a while and my wife which sucks but there's also parosmia where it's like your your sense of smell is off or it's altering your sense of smell almost like when you know a lot of people when they're pregnant like they get aversions to certain smells and um so maybe we should get some people on because it's like you know very topical and you don't hear a lot of people talking about the mechanism of it or kind of how to get around it or how to deal with it. So maybe we should put that together. You think that'd be do you think that would be fun? Sure.
+
+[1:08:24] By the way when when we read her question, uh Nastasia, when we get, I would like to get Mc McGee on because he suffered anosmia due to a virus years ago and beat it. And maybe like some sort of like uh neurosensory person like uh from uh Yale or maybe Bob Data from Harvard, um maybe Ariel on the chemistry, you know what I mean? Like uh get like a like a like a panel like that together and do a cooking issue on aroma in general, but like perosmia and anosmia in particular. Anyway, uh Jill is 30 females single and a home cook that has almost no gadgets but enjoys uh food science and restaurant industry sh uh shop talk. She's a former server.
+
+[1:09:09] Uh also uh Shai Noi wrote in and about sweet potatoes. Okay, so I want everyone to think about this. Uh I want everyone to think about this because I don't know this effect. I want someone to write in if they also have noticed this effect. I'm gonna try to find some information.
+
+[1:09:25] So, Matt, I'm not taking extra time because I know I don't have time to answer it and because I also don't have the answer. Quick question. Why do baked sweet potatoes, i.e., yams for Americans, lose uh ipoimo batata, that's what we're talking about. Lose much of their sweetness once chilled. Even an hour or two at room temperature seems to reduce their sweetness level considerably, and it isn't fully restored even if reheated.
+
+[1:09:50] For reference and to encourage their consumption, my method is to place them whole and unpeeled into a cold oven, set at 285 degrees Fahrenheit for 30 to 60 minutes, then 440 degrees Fahrenheit for an hour at least, thanks. So the low temperature, I guess, is to sweeten it up enzymatically and the high temperature is to roast it. So look, before I hear all the chimes, yes, I'm aware, and Shine is uh is, I'm sure, aware, that your perception of sweetness goes down as things get colder. And I don't think that's what they're talking about here because they said even when it's reheated, they notice an effect where it's lost its sweetness. So anyone who's noticed this effect and or wants to talk about it, please chime in and we'll try to get to the bottom of it for next time, Shy.
+
+[1:10:30] Anything else, Doz? Are we good? I think that's it. All right, we missed a couple of questions. We'll get them next time on Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:10:40] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, HeritageRadio Network.org.
+
+[1:10:54] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:11:16] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products.
+
+[1:11:43] Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J-U-T-S-T-slash H R N. With our growing season just around the corner, we're sowing seeds of knowledge and empathy on this week's episode of Meet and Three through four unique stories.
+
+[0:25] I'm always shocked at how aggressive people are with their language. We're surrounded by seeds that have already adapted to live with us, and they're actually already kind of living in the future because cities are hotter and they're more polluted and they're more fragmented, and these are the plants that can deal with that. Tune in to Meet and Three, available wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, like from whenever to whenever. Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:22] Great. You doing alright? Yeah. You enjoying the uh the sweet, sweet freezing weather we just got for a year. Yeah, why would anyone want to be anywhere else?
+
+[1:30] Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad that you're your usual sunny self. That's awesome. Uh John back from his uh grand jury duty. How you doing, John?
+
+[1:38] Doing great. You got your you got your fill of uh watching uh murders and kidnappings on uh videotape, have you? Yeah. Yeah. Faith in humanity restored.
+
+[1:48] Yeah, ready for cooking issues to come and bring them back down. Yeah, you said it was like horrific, right? In terms of like what you're exposed to on the daily. Yeah, it's pretty crazy the crimes that you know happen in the city and in such like popular places right in the middle of the day. It's it was uh sober sobering.
+
+[2:05] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh we got uh Matt in his uh you're you're permanently Rhode Island Heidi Hode hold, right? Yeah doing it.
+
+[2:16] Yeah, all right. So if if we have time, which we won't because we have like a panoply of amazing guests today, but uh I have more updates on uh the vacuuming bread trials, but we probably won't have time. So I'm gonna get right into it today. Uh we have three special guests. Uh first, long time uh, you know, coming on the show, friend of the show.
+
+[2:34] Uh Ariel Johnson, Dr. Ariel Johnson, uh flavor flavor chemist. How do you like to describe yourself right now, Ariel? What's your favorite like author? Besides about to be failed author.
+
+[2:45] Um, I'm joking. Um I usually say I'm a I'm a flavor scientist or a food scientist. Flavor scientist. I like that. I like that, but like not like a most people who are flavor scientists are more or they're flavorists.
+
+[2:57] I think flavor scientists might be a title that I invented. I'm not I'm not sure, but it I think it best encompasses what I've done. Right. You know how to use technology, but you're not a technologist. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[3:08] I mean, I can pretend to be one, but mostly my uh my job is to study and talk about flavor. Yeah, well, welcome back. Uh it's good to be. Thanks for having me. Yeah, good good to hear you.
+
+[3:17] Good hearing. Uh and also you might know her uh also now as uh good Good Eats uh Chief Science Officer, which is also a good title. Did you come up with that? I um no, I didn't. I think uh uh Alton, like many of us, likes Star Trek, and I believe that's either the same or close to uh Spox designation on the Enterprise, so I'm not complaining about that, certainly.
+
+[3:39] Yeah, you were a pro pro Nemoy? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Where do you fall on the George Tikay uh William Shatner spectrum?
+
+[3:49] Uh I mean, how like how can you really choose? But uh I think I'm more of a tokay person. Yeah, so you don't like the uh you don't like the all right. Well we can't. All right, all right, all right.
+
+[4:04] And uh, of course, also longtime friend uh Harold McGee on the line. How you doing, Harold? I'm very well, thanks. How about you guys? Doing all right.
+
+[4:12] So the last time we had on was you know, unfortunately for Maria Guarnicelli's uh uh memorial show, but then also we had you on about your new your new book, Nosedive. How's that going? Going well, I hope. Uh yeah, it's it's now new-ish, uh, but doing pretty well, getting some good reviews, and um and so we'll see about sales. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[4:34] Well, you know. Uh whatever. Uh so the uh so the reason I have you two on is because we've gotten a lot of questions uh recently on cold COVID and uh old faction, right? So I mean everyone's thinking about COVID all the time. Uh but a lot of people, especially for cooking and in this show in particular, um, you know, they're asking, well, look, you know, I I've lost my sense of taste or my sense of smell because of COVID, and you know, what can I do about it?
+
+[5:03] Is it permanent? Is there any way to cook around it, etc. etc.? So I thought, you know, the two of you would uh be perfect for the show, especially because Harold, I'm allowed to say that you had an osmia as a result of like years ago, right? Or no?
+
+[5:16] I'm not it's too late. I already said it. We could have cut it out. But yeah, Harold also has uh an interesting perspective because he is a food guy author who also suffered from anosmia, which means la lack of smell. We'll get into the technical stuff uh later.
+
+[5:31] But I brought a special other guest who's his first time, I've known him for I've known him for like probably 30 years or something, but it's his first time on the on the program. Uh live from Harvard, we have Sandeep Robert Data, who will now be called Bob because that's what I've called him since I've known him. But he is an olfactory scientist at the Harvard at the best lab name ever. What's the name of your lab, Bob? Uh the data lab.
+
+[5:59] How sweet is that? Because it produces data and his name is data. How sick is that? Is that the best name for a lab that's ever happened? Ariel, what do you think about that?
+
+[6:09] That that is that is quite quite the serendipitous name, definitely. Yeah. And just so you guys get a feel for kind of who Bob is. So, like, uh I don't what am I am I allowed to say any almost anything about you or not, Bob? You're pretty like Go for it, man.
+
+[6:23] Go for it. It's all you. So, like, uh, you know, so I actually know Bob through his wife Eliza, who, because Eliza and I were friends in college. I turns out I went to college with with Bob, but I I didn't know it uh at the time. Anyway, so like we became friends later, and especially because I found out he was a big food guy, not just an MD PhD with his own lab at Harvard, because he didn't have that at the time.
+
+[6:46] But he used to throw a yearly party instead of a birthday, he would have an I'm not dead party. And this is how I learned about Bob's kind of love of food, because every year he would have this blowout crazy party where he would cook for days and invite people in to celebrate the fact that he was not dead. Right? Right? Still not.
+
+[7:06] Still not dead. Uh well, because he had a particularly horrible like medical procedure and you know, problem that you know could have gone either. Let's just say it could have gone either way, right, Bob? Yeah. Thankfully it didn't.
+
+[7:17] Yeah, yeah. So we'll have him back on again. If you guys ever want to know about the perils of not paying your cryo bill. Like Bob's story on not paying your cryo bill will put you in tears. No matter how bad badly off you are, you should always check your mail.
+
+[7:35] That's my advice. Especially if you have important stuff in a deep freezer somewhere. Oh no. You might want to. All is well that ends well.
+
+[7:46] All as well that ends well. It turns out that the people who were uh who are threatening to turn off the switch on Bob's cryogenic uh stored products also was lazy. And so uh it all is well that ended well on that one. Also, uh little known fact about Bob, uh Bob went to high school with uh Snoop Dogg. Drew that, true that.
+
+[8:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh wait, did you grow up in Long Beach or what? Yeah, I grew up in a town next to Long Beach called Lakewood. Um so yeah, so I basically am uh you know, I I kicked around the LBC all growing up, basically. Yeah.
+
+[8:20] So I didn't tell you this. We just had our high school reunion, Snoop Dogg through the after party. I gotta tell you, it was exactly exactly Snoop Dogg came, slick Rick came, color me bad. Remember? Ah, what a sex, you up and it was incredible, incredible.
+
+[8:37] It sounds incredible. See, I'm just trying to give you guys a flavor for who's gonna be talking to you. All right. Uh one last thing I'll give this is the cooking issues crowd, especially will like this. You told me a story once that, like uh, you were at your your house, you were a small child, your grandma came over, I think it was your grandma, came over to your house and was like, What's wrong with you?
+
+[8:57] And the first thing she did is to your parents. What's wrong with you is she dug a hole in the ground and built a tandoor. True or false. This is what you told me. A hundred percent true.
+
+[9:05] And that was the best food I've ever eaten. She would like, she dug the clay out of our backyard. I mean, so she was in her 70s, hand built a tundor and just killed it for the entire time she was living with us. It was it was an incredible. I mean, that's that's that's like that's like grandma plus plus right there.
+
+[9:23] Grandma Plus Plus. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, nice. Uh, well, because what what region was she from originally? From the Poon job.
+
+[9:31] Nice, nice. Anyways, uh, all right, so that's enough of pre-stuff. Now we're gonna give a word of warning. Since we have three people who like know all the fancy words, let's try to stay away from some word salad when we're talking about this stuff. All right, let's keep it, let's keep it on the on the on the normal.
+
+[9:50] Like uh, I'll give you an example. I was reading an interview in in advance of this that uh Bob gave to one of his uh Harvard cronies over there, and they were talking about COVID and smell, right? And he's giving kind of a normal interview, like, you know, hey, baby boo boo, and he's like, he's like, you know what? Sustentacular cells, they're more important than you think. It's kind of like the like, you know, like glial cell important.
+
+[10:12] And I'm like, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. First of all, I don't want to hear anyone say sustentacular unless they're saying, How you doing? Hey, sustentacula. Like, for those of you that for those of you that uh aren't hip to sustentacular, as I was not, you know, before, you know, not before 8 a.m.
+
+[10:33] this morning, uh, you could just say support cell. You there doesn't need to be a word sustentacular, where you take, I don't know, tacular and add it to sustain and get sustentacular. What the heck is it with that word? They're spectacular cells that sustain things. They're freaking like he's spectacular.
+
+[10:51] Like, like how high was the scientist who came up with that name when they did. But the front fact you know, they were first named sustenazing, right? And that didn't work out so well. Oh my god, sustentacular. Oh my god, such a word salad.
+
+[11:04] All right. So the one, like, so we'll just get it straight. Are we gonna use anosmia, perosmia? That word that means I can't taste. What's that one?
+
+[11:13] Well, that would be a goosia if you can't taste, but anosmia is you can't smell, and perosmia is you can smell, but it's messed up. All right, all right. Now, I got Bob on not just because he's an old factory scientist, and by the way, Bob spent many years uh seeing like whether he could look at images of rats shrugging and then figure out what was going on in their brain with a camera, right? That with a visual camera and then a camera that looked inside their actual brain while they were alive and developed a microscope to do this. Is this a true story or am I making this up for it?
+
+[11:46] No, this is this is a true story that work is ongoing, and uh it's pretty cool. I'll tell you about it later. It's not too small. And here, well, one one more thing before we get into it, because that's again the the flavor. I like to tie this back to things, even people who haven't had the COVID.
+
+[11:59] Here's some career advice from what Bob did uh as a as a younger researcher that I think is great career advice. I think Ariel, you're especially gonna enjoy this. Um he went to work for uh a famous uh person's lab at uh Columbia University for uh it was postdoc, right, Bob? Yep, yep. All right, so he's doing his postdoc for, and so he convinces this this guy to build a fantastically expensive new microscope.
+
+[12:29] And the name of the microscope was it, two photon microscope? Yeah, it's a multi-photon microscope. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[12:34] And so how much that sucker cost? Uh you know, the laser to power was a quarter million dollars. Okay, okay. So, and that was hey folks, that's just the laser. We're not talking about like the optics.
+
+[12:46] The light bulb like quarter million dollars for one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so we're talking like lots of money, not to mention like, you know, all the rats that Bob was going through left and right. By the way, no illegal way to kill a rat in New York City.
+
+[12:58] Anyway, um the so what he did, and this is the genius for all of you growing up. I know that a lot of people who are when they're younger, they're worried that they're gonna go work for someone, like for us, it's probably in a restaurant or in hospitality, and they're gonna give all their good ideas to the person who's getting all the credit, right? Bob did the reverse. He gave his all, he built like a great microscope, but since no one had built them before, he learned a lot about building this particular kind of microscope with somebody else's million dollars, right? Became the guy who knew how to build the million dollar microscope, and then got to build one that was like twice as good when he moved over to Harvard and got his own lab.
+
+[13:35] So this is good career advice. Am I right, Bob? It's all yeah, it's good career advice. Always spending someone else's money is good advice. Spend someone else's money first, don't worry about giving up the idea.
+
+[13:43] Instead, learn on somebody else's nickel and then become the heavyweight, no? Easy peasy. Yeah. That is that yeah. You like that area?
+
+[13:52] I thought Ariel, you were that. Yeah, no, I mean, it's uh uh there's also the skill in finding someone who will give you that money. Um but uh and until then what I've usually done is built built things out of garbage and scrap and then been the first person to uh you know those things. Air Ariel Ariel and I have a secret business idea that I think that Nastasia and John know about to build something out of garbage uh for people. But yeah, it should be fun.
+
+[14:20] You've been very patient about my uh my ever extending book deadline. But uh but yes, we have to Oh, I'm I'm familiar with ever extending book deadline. So anyway, so none of those reasons is the reason that Bob's on the show. It's not shrugging rats, although I'm sure it's related. But uh Bob and a number of people in his lab, it it last March, March 2020, were some of the first people to realize that uh people who were um uh getting COVID in in the first outbreak were having problems with old faction and did some of the early research.
+
+[14:53] So you want to talk about what ooh, nice. Bob, you want to talk about about what you what you learned and what you know? Yeah, sure. So uh let me start by saying uh we still haven't figured it out. So it's been a it's been a year into the pandemic, and I think uh a bunch of us are still wondering and still working on on this problem, which is a which is a big problem, I think even bigger than we realized.
+
+[15:14] So just to kind of step back and talk about some numbers briefly, I'd say the most recent data suggests that if you get COVID, about 80% of you are gonna have a change in your sense of smell. Uh some of you lose entirely, for some of you you'll lose partially, but like you know, the vast majority of people who um go ahead and get COVID get some sort of anosmia or perosmia, a loss of their smell or a diminution in their cell in their sense of smell. Um and then of those, you know, for most people it comes back pretty quick, two to four weeks usually. But there's definitely a bunch of people, 30% maybe who go on for longer. Um, and so, you know, I think uh what that means, right, is that there are millions of people now across the globe who are kind of dealing with this as an issue.
+
+[15:58] Uh, and so as a consequence, a bunch of us are trying pretty hard to figure out what's going on. Uh, and I and I think, you know, as I said, we still don't know, but I think um the the ideas we have now uh kind of go like this that um it's not the cold. You know, you get the cold and your nose gets stuffed up and your mucus changes and you know you can't smell, and then you get better from the cold, and then you get your sense of smell back, right? That's what happens to all of us. And it's pretty clear now that's not what this virus is doing.
+
+[16:28] This virus is doing something totally different, um that is that's kind of changing our ways of thinking about what's important when we, you know, to the function of our ability to smell. Uh, and as Dave kind of mentioned, you know, the thing that we initially thought was um that maybe the virus goes up into your nose and infects a part of your nasal cavity called the olfactory epithelium. I'll try to keep the longest words to a minimum, but it's like a part of the inside of your nose that's responsible for detecting odors, it's responsible for selling, for smelling. And you know, really I'm a neurobiologist, right? So, like I care about the brain, I care about neurons and process information, and that's what that's what you know wakes wakes me up in the morning.
+
+[17:07] And the olfactory epithelium is filled with these neurons, which are just like the cells in your brain, except they live in your nose. Uh, and these neurons are responsible for sensing smells in the world. So you take a sniff, right? You get all these small molecules that are that are volatile, that they're coming off of your food, they're coming off of everything in your environment. You know, they come into your nose and they interact with these neurons in your nose, and then your neurons, you're gonna love this.
+
+[17:32] These neurons actually communicate with your brain because they have these little bits of wiring, uh, which are called axons, that actually poke through holes in the base of your skull. So you have these tiny little holes that like separate your nose. You know, you have this bone that separates your nose from your brain, right? So to prop the front of your brain up and not let it fall into your mouth. Uh and into that little bone, which is called the crypoform plate, there are like a bunch of these little holes.
+
+[17:56] And this wiring goes from the neurons in your nose through these holes in your skull into your brain, basically. And so, like the initial idea was well, maybe what's happening is the virus is coming in, you're getting infected, uh, and that that virus is infecting these sensory neurons, which are responsible for smell, messing up the neurons, and that's why we all lose our sense of smell. It looks like that idea is not true. Uh, it looks like instead there are other sorts of cells that kind of prop up and feed the olfactory sensory neurons in your nose. And these are the support cells that Dave was mentioning.
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+[18:27] Um sustentacula, the spectacular sustentacular cell. And it looks like those are the primary cells that are getting infected. That's what it seems like. At least you know, everything's subject to revision. This is science, like we're not, there's no dogma here.
+
+[18:41] But the data that we have currently, both in animals and in humans, is that like when you get infected, these these support cells that are the responsible for kind of maintaining your olfactory sensory neurons get infected. And then there's probably some local inflammatory process that effectively shuts down uh the ability of your sensory neurons to work. And so you kind of like a light switch, lose your sense of smell when the sustentacular cells stop working. And then when the infection clears, for most people, right? Um the sustentacular cells get better, the inflammation, the local inflammation goes away, and all of a sudden your sensory neurons start working again, and now all of a sudden you can smell.
+
+[19:16] Um, which is it's better news that it's not messing with the neurons, right? Yeah, it's definitely but yeah, for in most people. But David, you know, one of the things to keep in mind is that there is this relatively large fraction of people that uh lose their smell for longer. And we think in those cases, the neurons are probably being messed with. That like denied support from the support cells for a while, um, if the support cells are really hit hard, the neurons go on to die.
+
+[19:42] Um, and uh, you know, that can cause a prolonged sense of you know, loss of your sense of smell, but it but also creates other issues. We talked just a little bit about parosmias, right? So anosmia is the loss of smell. Parosmia, uh, as Ariel was describing, uh, is when different uh smells smell wrong, and they often smell um really funky and unpleasant. So you'll smell a flower and it'll smell like sewage, for example, which is horrible.
+
+[20:10] And actually, when you have perosmias, you know, lots of patients who have perosmates now have trouble finding something to eat. And so we don't really that's why we're here, because we have a bunch of people asking how to fix this or what's going on, they want to know. Yeah, yeah. So so as I started, like if we know little about how COVID causes anosmia, we know even less about how COVID causes parosmias, but there are some ideas. So, one interesting idea um comes from the third type of cell that's in your olfactory epithelium.
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+[20:38] So there's these neurons that detect odors, there's these support cells, there's a third kind of cell called a stem cell. So in me and in you and in everyone, when we breathe in and out, what we're basically doing is breathing in a bunch of garbage in the air, right? Pollutants, pollen, viruses, particulates, cigarette smoke, toxins, like just like day in, day out, this olfactory epithelium is bombarded with all sorts of toxic trash. And the reason why we have nose hairs and we have mucus is to like help prevent that crap from you know damaging our neurons. But inevitably, our neurons are damaged and actually they die.
+
+[21:13] Uh just as part of the normal wear and tear of your olfactory epithelium. So there are these special cells called stem cells that actually rebuild the epithelium when it's damaged. So they regenerate neurons. Now that that process kicks into high gear when a virus like like the coronavirus, you know, really damages your olfactory epithelium. So what has to happen in order for that neuron, that new neuron that was just made to repair your epithelium, what has to happen for that thing to work?
+
+[21:42] Well, you have a new neuron that's born in your nose. So obviously it has to be able to detect odors, but also it has to send one of those wires up through one of those holes in your brain, in in your skull, and it has to go to just the right place in your brain. And so that's hard. Like that's a huge there's a huge distance between your nose and this part of the brain that like that information has to go to. Um and so it takes a long time for that process to actually occur.
+
+[22:04] And then often when the wiring, the axon enters the brain, at the beginning, it's actually in the wrong place. And so one idea about perosmius is that it actually kind of reflects a process of repair and recovery. Your neurons are getting rebuilt, they're getting rewired, and you know, that information is going to the brain, but it's not quite going to the right place. And confronted with this kind of weirdness, your brain turns that into like a nasty smell. And the idea is that over time the wiring will refine itself and the axons will increasingly go to the right places.
+
+[22:33] Uh, and then the perosmus will go away and you'll recover your sense of smell. So that's that's just one idea. There's probably more going on than we know. Um, but that's the that's the current predominant theory. Wait, so the theory is eventually your brain will integrate it in the same way that it used to, or you'll just get used to the new integration and you're you'll tell yourself that it doesn't smell like gasoline anymore.
+
+[22:53] It smells like whatever. We think it probably is going back to the way it was before, but part of what's definitely happening, and this kind of touches on what we can do to help patients, right? Part of what's happening probably is also your brain is relearning uh, you know, what smells are. Um and so, you know, I don't know that you've heard about this thing, but like the one clinical thing that has you know some evidence to support it to help with folks who are anosmic, hyposmic, meaning they have kind of less of a sense of smell or perosmic after um after COVID infections is this thing called smell training, where basically you take a bunch of purified or essential oils, and there are a lot of websites actually online that can help kind of guide you through this process. There's one particularly good one called AbScent, uh A-B-S-C-E-N-T, um, that sells kits and has guides for how to do this.
+
+[23:40] Basically, you smell various uh smells or essential oils, you know, throughout the day whose identity is known to you. So you smell lavender, you smell peppermint, you smell this, you smell that, and you just remind yourself, oh, this is peppermint, this is lavender, um, you know, this is apricot, this is peach. And you just do that over and over and over again. And it's thought through this kind of repeated smell training, your brain relearns what smells are uh and helps to reintegrate the new information as it's coming in from your nose as your nose repairs itself. Harold, did you have did you do something like that when it happened to you?
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+[24:12] What when you want to talk about your story about uh going through this pre-COVID? Yeah, it was uh very different uh because I mean it would it was uh similar in the sense that I woke up one morning, I I made myself a cup of coffee, and after a minute or so realized that I actually wasn't smelling it. Wasn't uh I was tasting it, but I wasn't getting any of the the pleasant smells. Um and then I noticed uh through the rest of the day that I wasn't smelling anything, and that lasted for uh several weeks. And um I didn't have any symptoms.
+
+[24:54] Uh I didn't have any uh I didn't have a cold. Uh everything else seemed normal. So that was scary because I was in the middle of writing a book about smells, and uh so I got in touch with um friends of mine at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia, you know, asking them what could I do. And they basically said uh at the time, and this is maybe six, seven years ago, uh just hang in there and uh usually it comes back, but sometimes it doesn't, and you won't know until uh it does or doesn't. And I didn't uh actually think of training, you know, trying to trying to exercise those muscles because I didn't really know what was going on.
+
+[25:40] Um so I just uh you know crossed my fingers and uh it was a really unpleasant few weeks because uh I wasn't getting any pleasure from food um except you know taste, and so I was I was you know upping the hot sauce in everything just to get some kind of sensation. Um and stopped going out to restaurants because there was no point, uh, stopped drinking wine um because there are cheaper ways to enjoy alcohol. Uh and it uh and uh even just you know, walking into my house or going out of my house, you know, and you you get a blast of fresh air, and you kind of uh you know, just get a sense of the the environment, uh all that was gone. It was it was really upsetting. Uh so anyway, I mucked out, it it came back eventually and gradually.
+
+[26:40] Um so yeah, it's it's not a not a nice experience. Well, you say you didn't train, but I remember I saw you like we hung out like when you were coming out of it at one point, I forget what we were doing, and you were doing kind of A-B testing. You're you know, you were you're you were talking, you were making mental notes of what something smelled like before versus now. I mean, you probably didn't even notice it, but that's kind of like the way that you operate. So maybe you know, you your natural way of being was helpful in terms of helping you get your smell back.
+
+[27:17] Because I remember you being like, you know, bring it up, look, take it down, bring it up. You know what I mean? Yeah, I would I was certainly testing myself every day and multiple times during the day, hoping, you know, for some sign that uh something was coming back. Uh and I would try everything, um, you know, bad smells, good smells, but but I wasn't, you know, um uh smelling something and then thinking that smell, uh, you know, th trying to make the association. I was just it was kind of a uh uh an A-B test in the sense of is it there or not?
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+[27:55] And does it smell right or not? Yeah. And then not to freak the listeners out uh even more, but I saw a study that says that more people have uh olfactory deficits as a result of COVID than they know. In other words, that the odds that you have a deficit and don't know that you've been somewhat impacted are quite high. Is that accurate?
+
+[28:14] Uh yeah, absolutely. People are really lousy at, believe it or not, reporting their own kind of self-sense of smell, right? They're not really good at that. So if you ask folks, you know, the prevalence of COVID associated changes in smell are like at 60, 65%. But if you test them, it's more like 80s.
+
+[28:38] And as more objective testing kind of makes its way into the world, you know, given the pandemic, you know, that number could even rise. So yeah, I think it's it's it's um people's lack of self-insight into their sense of smell that might be under underrepresenting uh how badly this this the virus is really infecting that this particular sense. And uh lastly, on this kind of like nuts and bolts aspect of it, um I saw some data that uh country by country the reported rates are different, but that's probably almost certainly just the way it's being reported, right? Yeah, and actually um you'll not you'll get a kick out of this. Um, you know, initially a lot of the reports had women getting an osmia much more than men, but that's just because women are much more insightful about their sense of smell than men are.
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+[29:21] Um when you objectively test them, they're basically the same. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the initial report people were really wondering whether there was a sex difference. Because it was like 30-60, right?
+
+[29:30] The original data was like 30-60. Yeah, and that all washes out with objective testing. Okay. Oh, sorry. Uh well, that's really interesting.
+
+[29:38] And like what you said before about people not being good at reporting their own uh like decline in smell sensitivity. Um I mean, it definitely gives with like what I've experienced training people to do sensory analysis and uh the sort of like general uh uh what one paper put it is humans are extraordinarily good at distinguishing smells, but extraordinarily bad at describing smells, um, although that's generally linked to like experience and and culture. So uh the difference in men and women makes me think um, you know, since perfume and like scented body products are marketed so heavily to women, that like maybe culturally they tend to be uh, you know, more more trained and attuned to noticing these like differences in smell. Well, so speaking of that, Ariel uh and testing, so Mike Baston wants to know what kind of what are the what are the objective tests that they use uh rather than just your subjective perception of it. Well, I mean, you know, technically speaking, no perception is truly subjective.
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+[30:47] Um, I mean, it's going to vary person by person, but like for the most part, uh a glass of wine is not going to smell subjectively to somebody like a cheeseburger. Um, so uh which I know I I am uh you know belaboring a sort of pedantic pedantic point, but um I don't know how they test in a in a medical context, in um doing a sensory analysis of of wine or uh uh whiskey cocktails or rum, which is what I've I've done. Um I mean we we train people not in the ability to physically smell things, but in the ability to name the smells that they're uh they're smelling, and we always do that with uh physical references. So if if they say celery, we give them some you know, fresh celery, celery seed, dried celery, and they have to tell us which one aligns with what they what they mean when they say celery, for example. Yeah, one of the studies I saw was actually using the commercially available smells of uh the nez duvent.
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+[31:47] Oh yeah, the nez duvan. Uh yeah. That's uh those things stink, man. Those things stink. Well, I mean, you you're if you're you're smelling smell molecules and concentrations that like no human is really supposed to or finds in nature.
+
+[32:00] Um but but yeah, the uh the the nez duvent is a is uh one example of trying to standardize these these references because it's based on like specific blends of molecules. Right. Well, I know there's some researchers who are trying to come up with the smell kits for people to test themselves at home in a in a more objectively verifiable way based on kind of easy to purchase odorants. Any of you guys like that? Uh oh, I've heard of that.
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+[32:27] Um I I mean I'm just spitballing here, so um Sandy, please correct me if I'm like talking outside my discipline too much. It sounds like it could be kind of analogous to uh to like testing for concussions, where it's like much better to have a baseline uh baseline reading or baseline test to compare to rather than trying to figure out from scratch, like post post-trauma um if something has happened. You know, that's completely true. You know, my buddy Noam Sobel at the Weitzman Institute came up with a kind of clever solution to this, which is he wrote up uh a phone-based app where you just go into your kitchen and you pick five kind of canonical smells. And he has a long list of like a hundred you can pick from, you just have to find five of them.
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+[33:09] Toothpaste is one of them, I think. Uh not that that's my kitchen. Um and then you just measure them, measure your perception of them longitudinally. Yeah. And so it's thought that like it's the delta, it's the change that really is indicative.
+
+[33:21] Because you know, human perception, as I'm sure you're aware, is so varied and so individualized. You know, what's normal for me is very different from what's normal for you. And so this kind of longitudinal testing ends up being really important. Very cool. Uh all right.
+
+[33:36] So you talked a little bit uh about well, we'll we'll go to this one first on treatment. So Jim wanted to know, other than uh steroids and platelet stuff, is there any thoughts on uh stem still stem cell therapy for fixing uh fixing this problem in the future? Like how how many years away are they from being able to fix this like that way? Well, you know, like like I said, um, there are stem cells in your nose that repair your epithelium, and so people have long been fascinated with that because um a thing that maybe you guys don't know is that, or maybe you do know, right? Is that like your brain isn't very good at repairing itself precisely because it doesn't have very many stem cells.
+
+[34:09] There's a very small population of stem cells in your hippocampus, for example. Um, but that's then you know, that's basically it, um, except for your nose, which continuously regenerates these neurons. And so people have actually been taking nose tissue and like putting it in damaged spinal cords, for example, to try to see whether the stem cells from your nose can rebuild other parts of your nervous system. Um, my buddy Brad Goldstein at Duke has actually done this for smell in animal models. So you can damage the olfactory epithelium of a mouse, and then you can transplant back into that mouse some new olfactory stem cells.
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+[34:44] It turns out that works. It actually repairs the epithelium. Um, as far as I know, this has never been tried in a human, and so this kind of work is going to be several years off before it'll it'll help us. Um, but it's a thing that in principle could work, and I think it's a subject of active research. How many years do you guys, this is not related to COVID?
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+[35:03] How many years until like the average high school student can CRISPR themselves up and turn themselves into a glow in the dark, rave rave party person? I mean, I know a guy that sells kits for that. It's coming. I I I'd wait. I don't know.
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+[35:13] I'd wait. Yeah, I I haven't I haven't tried it. I just uh I mean if I was gonna CRISPR myself, it would be a glow-in-the-dark, like huge like patch right in the middle of my forehead, so I wouldn't need to worry about a headlamp, and then when everyone turns the lights down, I'll still be able to see. You know what I mean? There's an artist, I'm gonna look up his name who made a rabbit glow in the dark somehow.
+
+[35:40] Um Dave, wait, Dave. If if I if I could CRISPR in photosynthesis into you, you wouldn't take that. Right. I like eating so much. I don't need sugar injected, you know, into me.
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+[35:52] You know, and then uh I don't know. I mean, it'll be a good use of my extra carbon dioxide, and nostalgia tells me I have enough of it, right? Yeah. Um, and and I'm gonna want a specific answer to this. Nicole wrote in, I know we've touched on it, but do they have any information on the frequency of uh full versus partial recovery?
+
+[36:12] Uh, and does it come back the same? She's personally panicked and dying to know. Um my understanding is that when people recover, they feel pretty normal. And I think the data are still emerging about rates of recovery and and the nature and the course of the recovery. I mean, we've only been in this pandemic for a year, and I'll just remind you like this is the biggest olfactory crisis, perhaps humanity has ever faced.
+
+[36:35] I realize it sounds kind of ridiculous, but it's true. No, it's totally true. Right. I mean, new onset anosmia is extremely rare, right? Um and so now all of a sudden we're just confronted with this and we're learning about it as we go.
+
+[36:46] Well, the question I have then is like also uh, you know, because this disease is also impacting um, you know, people like, for instance, in nursing homes disproportionately, and they're having they have trouble typically eating and enjoying what's going on anyway. Are we going to see more people dying from lack of nutrition over the next like uh year because they just don't want to eat anymore and they're already in a compromised position? Yeah, I mean, there's really three things here. One is that smell is essential to sense danger, right? So on like there's actually a family of nine, I think, in Texas, where eight of them were in osmic and there was a fire in the house, and none of them noticed, except for the one person who wasn't an osmic who dragged the other eight out.
+
+[37:24] So, like that's a real thing. The the nutrition thing is absolutely an issue. Um it's an issue, you know, as you get older, as we were just kind of implying, you know, people begin to lose their sense of smells and sense of smell. And if you look at people in their 80s, lots of them are functionally inosmic. And that goes with a change in nutritional status.
+
+[37:42] I actually want to focus on a thing that Harold was bringing up. Um, you know, he was describing his personal experience with anosmia, and basically he was describing feeling blue. And I think lots of people who have lost their sense of smell um have that sense that they're kind of uh floating in the world and a little bit emotionally out of sorts. Um, and that is in a sense to be expected. Your sense of smell is very directly connected to the emotional and memory centers in your brain.
+
+[38:07] And when you lose your when people lose their sense of smell, it's actually a known risk factor for depression. And so for your listeners, I really want to emphasize that if that's how you're feeling, it's it's like kind of expected, it's part of what happens to people when they lose their sense of smell, and you should seek help. Um, you know, it's uh it's um I think one of the things that um the medical community is gonna face is a lot of depression that's related to people with prolonged loss of their sense of smell. And it's important to be be really aware of that and sympathetic to that. Um speaking of uh going back to age and training and sense of smell in general, so if training helps you with COVID-related uh, you know loss of smell, whether entire or partial, could training help everyone as they as they're getting older to train their nose to constantly be aware.
+
+[38:54] Is being aware of smells around you gonna keep your sense of smell longer? Is there any data on this? Uh I don't know of any data. Ariel, do you know any data? Uh no, I was I was just trying, I mean, it's a super intriguing question.
+
+[39:06] I was just trying to uh think of if I knew any papers that talk about that. Um, there's any I don't know any specifically, but I do remember reading uh that in fact you can uh to some extent um uh improve older people's um uh what acuity or just you know appreciation of that uh sense by getting them to use it in a in a kind of focused con uh conscious way. Um so I think there there is there have been studies like that done. I don't know how big, uh how long ago, uh but um yeah, I I think uh I'm I'm certainly thinking as I turn 70 that I'm going to be um exercising my sense of smell as much as I can. Well, I mean because that because I know there's data on cognition, right?
+
+[40:06] People who like you know relatively challenge their brains, like tend to keep their cognition uh in better shape longer, right? So maybe the same is true for smells, who knows, right? Yeah, I mean, it's totally reasonable. And actually, you know, the part of your central brain that's responsible for processing smells and assigning them to perception and maybe uh helping you make decisions based upon smells, that part of your brain is super plastic. It's really, really flexible.
+
+[40:29] And so I can imagine that working it out would be really helpful as you get a little. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy to use just egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U.S.
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+[42:03] Get a free sample of just egg for your restaurant at J U.S T slash H R N. Are you longing for a trip to Mexico? Do you want to taste mascal straight out of a wood fired clay pot still? And a palenque of Puebla? Well, we can't help with that.
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+[42:20] But we can offer the next best thing Agave Road Trip in a box. This set of ten samples of rare heritage agave spirits will transport your heart with the warmth of liquid Mexico. Get your set at agavefestival.org and then join Agave Road Trip Podcast co-host, Chava and me, Lou, for an online tasting. Agavefestival.org is the break you've been looking for, or as close as you're gonna get. Alright, now I'm gonna read the question that started it all, and then you guys can have at it.
+
+[42:51] We've talked uh we've talked around it, but the reason I decided to have you all was we got a question from uh Jill Kabika via email. Uh I'm sure I mutilated your last name. I apologize, Jill. Um, my friend is about three months post-COVID, and suddenly a new devastating side effect has surfaced parasmia. It started when he thought his jar of peanut butter had suddenly horribly gone rancid.
+
+[43:12] So this is later. And by the way, I'll say also my wife, Jen, now every once in a while has like what she calls like flashback phantom smells, where she smells gasoline all of a sudden for no reason, nowhere near a uh a gas thing. It started when he thought his jar of peanut butter has gone horribly rancid. Over the next 48 hours, many other foods he encountered also exhibited this rancidity. Several others with this after effect have been described, uh have described their new taste encounters to be horrendous mixes of feces and rotting garbage.
+
+[43:38] Uh, have been advised by doctors that this could potentially last up to years. Now, right there, she's making me think sulfurous compounds, right? Feces, garbage, sulfurous, and nitrogen compounds. Well, well, yeah, but oh yeah, so yeah, I was gonna say, uh, keep reading, cause also nitrogen, but you uh Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[43:54] Yeah. Here is a list of foods that trigger this smell from my friend. Anything with nuts, alliums, garlic, and onions, so there's your sulfur, right? Uh meat meat that is breaded, which is interesting, breaded meat, uh grilled, blackened or or fried meats, I guess or foods, chocolate, uh, and acidic candy, which isn't particularly aromatic, which is interesting. Uh things that do not trigger dumpster mouth, which is I guess a good term.
+
+[44:17] Can you guys use that professionally going forward? Dumpster mouth. Uh-huh. You have to give it to Jill though. Like you have to, you know, quote her as dumpster mouth.
+
+[44:25] Uh things that do not uh trigger the dumpster mouth, salmon, sausages, donuts, bagels, thank goodness. By the way, if we have time, which we won't, Bill De Blasio toasting his bagel. I mean, you could toast a bagel at home if you like, but you're the mayor of the New York. What? Okay.
+
+[44:40] Uh I mean, come on, people, you're the mayor of New York City. Come on. You don't eat pizza with a fork here, and you don't want to come on. Uh it is one of the one of the ceremonies of state that you have to observe, regardless of personal preference if you're the uh Yeah, he's like, I want a whole wheat bagel with extra cream cheese toasted. You're like, you're the mayor of New York.
+
+[45:00] No, you don't. No, you don't. Everything untoasted scallion, obviously. I mean, geez, Louise. Anyway, uh so tomato soup and most dairy.
+
+[45:11] Um my friend would like to get back to enjoying meals and keep the nausea slash vomiting to a minimum. This has been affecting both his physical and mental health, uh, as we were saying, mental health. Uh, is there anything you can find or think of that's similar in process or chemical makeup amongst the trigger foods that he can avoid, or any research uh you can find to help someone suffering from this, redevelop their sense of taste. Thanks in advance. And for Nastasia's notes, uh Jill is 30, female, single, and a home cook that has almost new no gadgets, but still enjoys food science and restaurant industry shop talk.
+
+[45:40] She's a former server. Uh and I'm gonna piggyback on what you're gonna answer for this and also say is uh is there any relation between this kind of uh kind of taste and smell transference and what happens to some women when they're pregnant and smells that were formerly fine or now intolerable. That's an interesting question. I don't have an answer for that right now, but um, I mean, Harold, Dave mentioned this. Harold, but let me know if this stood out to you too.
+
+[46:09] Like immediately, um, I mean, obviously, a lot of these nasty smells come from the mired reaction, especially in a view of the like breaded grilled meat. Um, you know, and then the uh the the alliums, that's obviously like a sulfur thing. Um I was stuck a little on the nuts, but the nuts have like tons of pyrazines in them. So I mean it makes me immediately think like sulfur and nitrogen heteromolecules. Um, you know, we mentioned flowers earlier, those can have indols, which have nitrogen and aminoacetophenone, which also have nitrogen.
+
+[46:41] Um I mean, just from my own like lab work, uh, I know that we we humans tend to have like very low thresholds to many sulfur and nitrogen compounds. Um, so they are molecules that we're already pretty physiologically sensitive to already, um was my like initial takeaway. Ariel, you know, um there's been a little bit of work done formally now exploring this hypothesis that there are specific odorous triggers for parosmia. Oh, okay. And you have it exactly right.
+
+[47:14] So muscle salt is exactly the conclusion of the paper, which is that sulfurs and nitrogens are the things that are driving it. And actually, the fact that they're specific triggers is precisely why we think we have an incomplete understanding of what's going on with parosmia. If it was just like miswiring and regeneration of your of your olfactory system, you might imagine that should affect all smells equally or in some equally distributed way. But the fact that like you know, sulfurs and nitrogens are the culprits mainly. Coffee's a big offender.
+
+[47:40] Lots of lots of people can no longer famously, I mean, obviously a lot of like nitrogen pyrazines and pyridines from the myard reaction, but like some of the main odorants are like sulfur-containing ferrinones from cysteine. Yes, yeah, well, like it like the like uh the well-known if it doesn't have the skunk, it doesn't smell fresh, you remove the skunk from coffee and it doesn't smell fresh anymore. True story, people. Um one question quick I had real quick. Sorry, but so Bob, the training before, does that also, if you keep smelling smells that smell like dumpsters, does that help rewire your brain to have them not smell like dumpster anymore?
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+[48:17] Yeah, I don't know, I don't know about that actually. I think the spell training has always been focused on pleasant things. So I think that's I think that's actually a really good question. And it's it's worth wondering whether or not people can habituate to the dumpster smells, right? That's also a uh uh an important question question worth asking.
+
+[48:31] Yeah, I mean like adults can habituate to like plus cheese. So uh Harold can habituate to Surstroming. I was just gonna mention that uh uh I think the paper that Bob is referring to uh on uh MedArchive from um from the UK, uh that actually took coffee apart into its components and then had people uh suffering post-COVID um smell the individual components, and sure enough, it's the sulfur compounds and the pyrazines that they respond to. But the other weird thing that this uh paper reported is that um uh a number of people in their study found or find the smell of uh excrement uh not excremental. Uh it's kind of you know, biscuity, I think is the term that they used.
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+[49:25] And they found that those people did not respond to indole, scatole, both of which are nitrogen compounds, and uh or to cresol, which are the main components in in uh smelly components in excrement. So it's uh it's really puzzling and and complicated. Wait, but they they normally could smell poop as poop, but post-COVID now poop is biscuit. That's right, yeah. So so dumpster is is maybe not the right term because uh yeah, good things smell dumpsterish, but dumpster itself smells nice.
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+[50:06] Well, I mean, since uh since feces is mostly dead bacteria, I wonder if there's some kind of like you know, when you age champagne on leaves, you get that like biscuity smell. I wonder if maybe people are just smelling like uh uh yes, cellular proteolysis. Um is that biz is that biscuity smell related to the mushroomy smell? Uh mushroomy taste? Um I mean, mushroom-y would probably be from like an eight-carbon aldehyde or ketone and biscuity.
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+[50:36] I mean, that's biscuity is often also aldehydes, but like smaller ones, just off the top of my head. Um let's hit some of these more questions. Uh this is a this is a not COVID-related, but from uh Dylan Hoyer. Uh so uh you did an interview on Heritage uh Harold, and it left uh left Dylan wondering if smells are created from pre-existing molecules, can we ever create truly new smells? Well, uh I think that's something that people are are making uh concerted efforts at uh and have been for a long time, uh especially in the perfume business, where you know people are uh trying to come up with molecules that are you know cheaper to make than uh extracting natural components, but give something like the uh a similar effect.
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+[51:29] And there are uh molecules that per perfumers use that are said to smell like uh like the seaside, like the ocean, uh a single molecule, not not the the ensemble that you actually get when you do go to the ocean, but a single molecule that kind of captures that whole experience. So I would say yes. But I wonder whether Dylan meant also like what does it mean to have something be new? Like how how can you dream of something you've never experienced in the real life? Do you know what I mean?
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+[52:02] Yeah, yeah, uh yeah, and that's that's different. Uh how how we would perceive a molecule that our uh our olfactory receptors can detect but have not detected before. That's that's a good question. How how we would respond to that. Well, and I also I think maybe on uh on top of novel molecules, um, since mixtures of molecules, I mean, can't take on like synergistic qualities.
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+[52:33] Uh it's probably possible to make a mixture of molecules that you smelled before that smells like nothing you've ever smelled before. Just integrates differently? Uh yeah, I mean, because you process, okay, so you process like individual odor molecules as like a uh an odor image, like a like a spatial activation of, I want to say, and apologies I'm not a neuroscientist, glomer you lie, um, brain cells on the brain cells on the ball. Uh brain cells. And it makes a uh it makes a spatial pattern.
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+[53:08] Anyways, so if you smell a lot of molecules at once, it also makes a pattern, so your brain just like remembers that pattern. So things like um, I mean, things like chocolate or lavender or wine, like there's no one molecule in them that smells like that. It it it's a it's a like blended and possibly synergistic thing. Um I mean, I'm this makes me think back to there was a yeah, there's a paper a few years ago about olfactory white. Um, so you know, there's like white noise and and white color, which is like both of them are made by like mixing a lot of um, you know, wavelengths.
+
+[53:41] And they were trying to make mixtures of odorants that smelled the smell equivalent of white noise. Um, and they it's it's been a while since I read it, and I don't think in the paper itself they listed what was in the mixtures, but it always made me wonder is if like people were smelling that thing over and over again, would it then was it the unfamiliarity that made it like a uh a white, a white smell or um something inherent in it? Because generally like things that you sense or smell more often like take on more nuance to you. Um and so by that I mean like that could be an example of of making a mixture of things you have smelled that uh creates a truly new smell, at least to you. Speaking of neutral white, Ariel, is there or is anyone here know of like so like genemic acid, you take it, it knocks out your sense of sweet.
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+[54:34] Is there like a t is there a temporary smell knockout other than just holding your nose? Is there actually like some sort of like you can take something and experience this for like half of an hour without fear of of uh being permanent or no? Not that I know of, but I would kill for such a thing. We there just isn't. I would love to be able to like um you know turn on an off the old factory system at will.
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+[54:58] And that's that's not a that's not a problem that's been solved. Yeah. Yeah, besides I mean, we just use nose clamps, but uh Yeah, but that's you know it's not perfect. Yeah. Yeah, it's just diminishing.
+
+[55:08] Yeah, yeah. Uh Andrew Hyatt wants to know, I'm curious on thoughts on how to improve the ability to distinguish smells, picking out notes and wine, for example. So this dovetails, I guess, with the with the training, but any specific advice? Anyone? I can jump in.
+
+[55:25] Um yeah, I mean, like really, and you know, uh Harold touched on this too. It's really just about practice. I mean, you know, there is like uh natural variation in sensitivity. People express different amounts of different olfactory receptors in in their olfactory epithelium um their nose. Uh you know, that's sort of a baseline.
+
+[55:50] But I'm and I haven't read any like empirical data on this. I'm I'm pretty convinced that most people who like work very creatively with with smell, um, whether that's like perfumers or somaliers or or chefs and stuff like that, uh much more about like what you choose to pay attention to than any sort of like innate uh innate sensitivity. And um, so I mean in terms of like specific advice, I usually just uh well, like sometimes I steal ideas from like uh sensory science and sensory descriptive analysis, which is literally just like smell four different versions of like celery or grass or chocolate and like pay attention to the differences. Um, and you know, other than that, just like smell as many things as you can and pay attention to what you're smelling. And it's really just I found like a process of time.
+
+[56:42] I mean, you know, I I had like professionally work on food and smell now. Um, but when I started out at like when I started grad school at like 22, um I was in I was in the wine department uh at UC Davis and you know I signed up as a panelist for some of these sensory analysis things, and I like I could not smell oak. Like I could not detect oak in wine. It did not like exist for me. Um and then after like maybe a month of like smelling the same samples every day, it all of a sudden like slid into focus.
+
+[57:11] It's like, oh, that's oak. Um you can't leave UC Davis without uh being a steel drink, right? This is oak and you hate it, right? Is that what they do? This is oak and you hate it.
+
+[57:21] That's UC Davis, no, in a nutshell or it depends. Sometimes sometimes it's oak chips. No, actually, I have a a couple people in my uh in my lab were specifically studying the flavor chemistry of oak barrels and like what got extracted into wine at like different toast levels and stuff. Um post levels. Yeah.
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+[57:41] Uh Bob, do you do any trigeminal stuff at the up at the harbor or no? Uh no, we we don't. Others do, but but yeah, but it's it's is it's important to consider it all this because it looks like taste and chemisthesis are also affected by the virus, right? Right. So like I've heard that I I don't know.
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+[57:55] So tr trigeminal, by the way, to D-word salad pain foods, pain foods. Well, pain pain and touch foods, because it's like uh like astringency is trigeminal also. Right. So here's a question that you I'm gonna throw at you guys, is why I asked. Uh I dealt with a little bit last week, but uh Spencer Roberts wants to know um about Sichuan peppercorns.
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+[58:15] Uh they they they blow it, they blow his taste buds out, right? So the question is, is there any way to to speed up tamping that down? I know it's a different set of receptors than uh than do with you know deal with kipsation, but like is there a is there a way to kind of uh unnumb yourself at a at a fast rate? Is there a a milk equivalent? Well, uh I've never uh made an effort to find something like that.
+
+[58:48] And I'm not aware of any um, you know, it's it's uh uh an odd set of sensations that uh that you get from uh Sichuan peppercorn. And so I think there there's a lot of interest in it, uh and you know, figuring out what what ion channels are being hit and that kind of thing. But when it comes to dealing with it practically, I haven't seen any information about how to, you know, extract the uh the compounds from your uh from your tissues faster than otherwise. Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean I think I think a lot of or for the most part people people eat, you know, Sichuan pepper or mala food specifically for that sensation. Cause they want to have it for a while.
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+[59:34] But um Carol, maybe you know the latest, yeah. I thought that uh like Sanchul hit potassium channels, right? And inhibited neural transmission as a consequence. So you could you could probably actually screen for an antagonist for uh for an antagonist with that effect if you wanted, right? So if someone was really eager to reverse their Sanchual mouth and have several million dollars in a lab.
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+[59:56] I think I think it's an achievable goal. I'm not certain anyone would do it, but I think it's achievable. Well maybe you could do it. Maybe you could do it for me. Maybe by the way, by the way, I know this is a like like totally a a cheap shot, but like I like flavored some flavored oils, right?
+
+[1:00:13] Ones that weren't overused in the early 90s I like, right? So like obviously I can't deal with truffle oil just because you used to walk into a restaurant in the 90s and it was like poo oh Jesus. But like uh I like I like and it's probably all fake I like the different uh Sichuan peppercorn oils both green and red. It's an easy way to cheat that flavor if you want to like dose it because you can't buy decent actual Sichuan peppercorn easily and then it's so hard to dose and it changes over time. If you use the oil it's easy peasy.
+
+[1:00:44] Am I a bad person? For that reason. I was like wait what? I mean no right you're not sure no I don't I don't think I mean I don't think you're a bad person. I also I mean I don't know how they make it I wouldn't imagine that they'd use like purified hydroxy alpha Sanchuol the way that they use like that one whatever ketone or something from truffles to make fake truffle oil.
+
+[1:01:11] Um but you could always check the you could check the label and if the label says like uh natural flavors instead of Sichuan peppercorn then that's a there's a there's not there's not a lot that I can understand on the label. You know what I mean? There's not it's not one of those situations. You know what I mean? It's it's not one of those stitches.
+
+[1:01:30] So Ariel while I have you here's two two quick ones for you. This you're perfect for it. I don't know why they wanted my thoughts on it. They really want your time for like one. I don't know who it was came from the chat room I think last week.
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+[1:01:42] I came across a blog post about creating quick garums by using freeze dried pancreas to celebrate the enzymatic activity and was curious about uh someone's thoughts on it. How about yours since they're actually informed. Oh yeah well I mean I I saw I saw that question um my friend uh Jason White who's taken over the Noma fermentation lab um after David Zilber after me and Lars uh was experimenting with that a few years ago. Um I think he was using actual like whole pancreas um but uh I I did not I don't think I got a taste of what he was doing. But um I mean he was saying it worked like super fast.
+
+[1:02:23] Pancreas. I don't I don't I mean I think we need a different name for that than Garum. I mean even what people like carum kind of makes sense like in internally or like as as like one example um to call these like protealized protein sauces. But for the most part like ne okay so garum or garum garum garum and liquamin were these uh Roman Roman fish sauces actually like very close to non pla. And those you get funky and umami flavors from letting the digestive tracts of fish essentially uh digest and protealize the tissue of fish.
+
+[1:02:59] So you let it let it sit for a very long time with a lot of salt and uh the proteins turn into free amino acids, and there's lots of smells too. Um so most of the like neogarums that people are making now, uh, they don't actually use fish digestive enzymes. They're using koji. Um that's like a Japanese aspergillus or research inoculated uh moldy rice that has a lot of proteolytic enzymes. It's a mum.
+
+[1:03:24] So that's already, I mean, that's already like a step away from garum. It's probably actually closer closer to like the original Chinese Jiang that that first used some of these mold starters. Anyways, so if you're going to uh to a step further to pancreas uh dissolving dissolving protein, I don't know, maybe that does take it a step closer to original Garum. Um but yeah, I mean I think I think the interesting takeaway with that if you can get the pancreas or the enzymes uh is usually those fermentations take like a year or two at room temperature. At NOMA, we would speed them up in like a 60 degree Celsius room, and it would take about 12 weeks.
+
+[1:04:04] Um you'd get a lot of like browning reactions with that just from the the time and the free amino acids and and sugars. But uh I know that the the pancreas enzymes you can do it in like a couple days. Um it's nothing that happens in a couple of days tastes the same as something that happens over a month. Yeah, true, but what I'm saying is that it's like a a different thing with different potential to optimize flavor-wise. Yeah.
+
+[1:04:26] Right, right. Uh, which is cool. Like it doesn't need to be the old thing. It's uh it's a new new thing. Um, but it's it's cool that other people are trying out uh some of the stuff that Jason was experimenting with.
+
+[1:04:38] Yeah. And then uh quick what? Oh, well, real quickly, Ariel, real quick, quick, super quick. Difference between uh sweet mash and sour mash, uh introduced uh acidity to keep bacteria production down. Brian Leonza wants to know we're probably too late.
+
+[1:04:52] But wait, okay, yeah. Sorry, I'm just looking at this question. Cyramash uses introduced acidity to keep bacteria production down. Isn't it bacteria that produces the sour mash? Like isn't it like a lactic acid bacteria?
+
+[1:05:04] It was it's been a long time since actually. I would guess we'll have a whiskey per we'll have we'll have uh someone who like worries about sour mash on the case. Increased production of more varied bacteria responsible for an increase in different esters. Um I mean it's possible. Like if you have if you esters are like molecules that combine an organic acid with an alcohol.
+
+[1:05:24] So like uh all fermented alcoholic beverages have a bunch of esters in them. Um and if you have like organic acids, which are also fatty acids and alcohols around together, they will just spontaneously form if you have high enough amounts of both into esters. Um I know this is important for for rum. Um some of the more like bacterial rum fermentations like Jamaican rum get super high esters this way. So it's definitely possible, but um this would be a question deserving of a lit review that I have not done.
+
+[1:05:56] All right. Uh Alex Staherski wrote in, I'll get this one real quick. What are the differences chemically between white and pink grapefruit juice? Since white grapefruit juice is almost impossible to find now. Is there a way to via acid adjusting to make pink grapefruit juice taste more like white?
+
+[1:06:09] Thanks, Alex. So first of all, Alex, there's no such thing as just pink and white. There are different varieties. Uh pink pink grapefruit is pink because there's lycopene in it. And when you clarify pink grapefruit juice, it goes yellow again.
+
+[1:06:22] But it also turns out that the pink varieties that we typically get are bred to be sweeter and less acidic. So what you want is a smaller, typically more acidically, you want a variety, a cultivar, that is m more more bred for acidity, something like a Duncan. So yeah, you can jack it with acid. I could try to look up uh what it is. I used to know off the top of my head what the acid balance in grapefruit was, but the color is just because of excess lycopene, which I think doesn't have much of a taste effect.
+
+[1:06:48] Uh uh Harold Ariel, any any thoughts on the taste effect of the of the pinkness? Uh not offhand. No. Yeah. I mean, I mean it's a it's a carotenoid, yeah.
+
+[1:07:02] And uh carotenoid breakdown products can be very lovely. Yes. Um so it's possible that that that contributes in in a kind of background way to the aroma of uh of a pink grapefruit. Agreed. Fair.
+
+[1:07:18] Uh but in essence, also they're bred to be s like the ones that we get are bred to be sweeter, and so they're not gonna have the high acidity for use in like cocktails like a Duncan would have, right? You know Duncan's anyway. Wait, is white grapefruit impossible to find now? Like I just saw some oro wonkos at my not the same though. I mean, I think what Alex is talking about are the old school, typically smaller, very tart grapefruits.
+
+[1:07:45] Well, an oral blanco is like a back cross back with a pomelo or something like that, I think. Right. It's a different, it's a different McGill. Okay. Whereas like you you you can get them, but the thing is, you know, I mean, good good grapefruits are I think difficult.
+
+[1:07:59] Uh, you know, Nastasia had access to good grapefruits because your dad grows them, right, Sas? Yeah. Delicious. Yeah. Awesome.
+
+[1:08:05] They are delicious. I've had them. They're very good. And uh back when uh Jen, my you know, my wife Jen's dad uh used to live in Arizona, he used to get amazing white grapefruits off of his tree, and I would just eat them by the by the bushel. But um, yeah, I think just most people don't want a sour variety anymore.
+
+[1:08:23] Um, and also uh grapefruit quality uh really changes on storage like a lot, like a lot lot, and maybe the pink ones are better at holding some of their characteristics longer than some of the uh older variety white ones. I don't know, and maybe that's why you don't see them as often. I don't know. I mean, carotenoids can act as antioxidants, or like that's what they're evolved to do. No, yeah, that's why uh Ronald Reagan says that ketchup is uh a healthy vegetable, right?
+
+[1:08:49] Lycopene, same same thing. Yeah. I do sorry, this is not science-related at all. I do just have to interject. But like, I mean, I'm uh I'm a northeasterner.
+
+[1:08:57] I grew up in Boston and then like moved to New York, and like the thing that blew my mind the most when I moved to California for grad school was just that like, oh yeah, I have a citrus tree in my backyard, and everyone treats that like it's totally normal, and it's like completely mind-blowing to meet it. It's not normal. Like, you can just go and pick a lemon um or a grapefruit, and I'm still incredibly jealous of that. Um, but needed needed to shout out how like totally bizarre and wonderful. That still is to me.
+
+[1:09:28] Nastasia left that to come back to this post. Yeah, I mean, I guess she must like us a lot. Yep. That is I don't know. I don't know about that.
+
+[1:09:35] All right. So uh let's get our last licks in before uh Matt shuts shuts us off. Uh we'll go, we'll go, we'll go around, we'll go around the table. Uh any uh last uh COVID anosmia, like places to go, places to think, Bob. Anything uh any last licks you got here?
+
+[1:09:52] No, it's a good discussion. I just think it's this is a problem we don't understand. We gotta keep working on. Yeah. And uh, you know, you can follow uh Bob at uh what has it?
+
+[1:10:02] Is it data underscore lab? It's just one word datalab.org with two T's. Two T oh two T's. It's still the best name of any lab ever. It's also my favorite character from Star Trek The Next Generation.
+
+[1:10:14] Um it's too bad that you decide to go into this and not like data science. Then you could have been like data lab, data scientist, data. Like you could have been like all all data data all the time. Uh but anyway, yeah, we'll we'll have you back on to talk about the horrors of not paying your cryo bill and uh other fun things. Uh at some point, Bob, thanks for so much for being on.
+
+[1:10:34] Thank you. Um Ariel, you got anything for me on the way out? Oh, well, I mean, I I as a person tend to harp on about paying more attention to smell, and you know, it's it's a uh it's a it's a shame that it's come in such a like distressing uh you know container, distressing like experiences for people for this anosmia now. But it is like super fascinating that we, you know, Americans at least tend to tend to think of smell as either like something that's kind of like dirty and gross, like you can smell garbage, or something that's like the pleasurability of it makes it frivolous. Um, but it's uh it's just really cool in like a metaphysical way um to have this demonstration of like not only the important functionality of smell, but like how important the like hedonics and pleasure that we get from smell is for normal human functioning.
+
+[1:11:30] Um that's a cool takeaway for people, even if you don't get a nosmia. Yeah. Harold Harold, what do you got for me? I would uh recommend that that website that Bob uh mentioned, Absent, A B-S-C-E-N-T.org, which is based in the UK, and uh just lots of really good information um about about smell and problems with smell and things to do about problems with smell. All right.
+
+[1:12:03] And and the from the three of you, just as a takeaway for a too long didn't listen, like it's terrible. You should get help, but it's 99% of the time it's going to come back. Is that accurate, or it's most likely going to come back eventually? It might just take a long time. Or am I not am I being too too rosy?
+
+[1:12:21] Yeah, I think we I think the important thing, David, is there's no evidence at this point to suggest that it will not come back. So most people are getting better. Some people still have it even from the beginning of the pandemic. But at this point, we don't know, we don't know what's gonna happen. But there's no reason to think it's inevitably not going to come back.
+
+[1:12:35] So people should keep up helping. Ah, very spoken like a true doctor. There's no reason to think it won't come back. Spoken like a true doctor. This is why we have Bob on.
+
+[1:12:44] Thanks, guys. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:12:57] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritage radio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
+
+[1:13:19] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
+
+[1:13:39] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. It's a better egg made from plants. Bring more customers in your doors with just egg. Start with their free sample at J U.St slash H R N. This episode is brought to you by the Great Grow Along.
+
+[0:49] Sign up at great growalong.com. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever I'm on the lower east side of Manhattan. We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez up uh in uh Connecticut on the Long Island Sound. How are you doing, Stas?
+
+[1:20] Good. Good. We got Matt in the Rhode Island booth. Matt, how you doing? Doing great, doing great.
+
+[1:25] We got uh John who's in uh East. You're in you're in Lyme right now, right? You're in Lyme, Connecticut. We're a kid, we're a New England heavy uh uh show today, but I'm gonna bring it back to New York because we have everybody's favorite cooking issues guest, Peter Kim. How are you doing, Peter?
+
+[1:48] Everyone's favorite. Well, he's not a punching bag. Always a punching bag. Now, here's the thing. So Peter Kim, you're you're uh you're in Brooklyn right now, right?
+
+[1:55] Yep. And since we haven't had you on since the pandemic, so when the pandemic started, the last time uh we had Peter on the show, there was not a pandemic yet, and we were furiously at the Museum of Food and Drink trying to uh open African slash American, which is uh our exhibition uh at the museum on um kind of the the the contributions both known and unknown of uh of of black folk to American food ways. And uh and yeah, and then the whole world fell apart. Peter had Peter had already Peter's plan, right? Peter right or wrong was to you were gonna open this, you were gonna open the the exhibition, and then you're moving away from uh the museum to go become the head of um the head of the food program there at at Pinterest, but you had like timed it so that like you could like I've worked for years, I'm gonna get this exhibition open, we're gonna do it, and then the whole bottom kind of fell out of the world, right?
+
+[2:54] Yeah. So instead, Zhang and I were like duct taping up like boxes in front of the quilt to keep the sunlight from making it fade, and like we were like turbo trying to like basically we were like, we don't know when somebody's gonna be able to come back in this room again, and so we're gonna basically do whatever we can to like preserve this thing. As far as I know, I mean uh it's more or less like we left it, isn't it, Zhong? I think more stuff has been stacked in there because the Africa's underneath something in the space. And the seven pallets of shoebox lunches came or you know, lunch boxes came.
+
+[3:30] Oh my god. Well, it's such a crazy time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, crazy uh is another word for bad, right? When's it opening?
+
+[3:38] Like when's it actually gonna open? Oh, geez, Stas. Jeez Luis. Oh, we we really you don't know. Well, look, a lot of things, a lot of things have to happen for it to open, and you know, I'm only one person, so it's you know, Oh no, I'm just saying like ballpark.
+
+[3:56] Oh, next year. Twenty twenty-two? Yeah. That's what that that's the year that comes after 2021. Yeah, Jesus.
+
+[4:06] Yeah. Because the like the problem is is that like everything has to work for everybody, for all the all the stakeholders. And the way that the space So we're really in the weeds on stuff that half the people listening probably have no idea what we're talking about. The Museum of Food and Drink, like, like uh it Peter started Peter was the founding, whatever. He he started the museum's actual programming.
+
+[4:29] Like I had this idea many years ago. I tried to start it, I failed. Nastasi and I did a fundraiser where we met Peter. Peter quit this is the the short story. Peter quit his job as a white shoe, but white shoe, who the hell wears white shoes at a white shoe law firm?
+
+[4:45] What is that? What is white shoe? What the hell's it? Why is it called that? Yeah.
+
+[4:50] It's crazy, right? I mean, like if you wore a white shoe to work, people would be like, the hell, right? Right. Yeah. Uh so he's at this white shoe law firm.
+
+[4:59] Uh, and we'll get into this, we'll get into this uh later, because it's well well known that like being a lawyer was kind of like you didn't really want to be a lawyer, right? That was to please your parents. Uh I know. I I was interested in studying the law and being a lawyer, maybe just not working at a firm like that. But you know, it was good to it's good to cut your teeth at a corporate firm like that to kind of understand that world too.
+
+[5:23] Yeah. And so he's like, I'm gonna quit my job and uh, you know, I'm gonna actually make this museum happen, which is what he did. Uh and we Nastasi and I both told him not to do it because, you know, we were like, we don't know. Is it gonna work? Boop beep, boop boop.
+
+[5:39] And you know, also you weren't so happy on the home front uh back in Illinois with your parents. Uh well I guess they weren't in Illinois at that time. But you know what I mean? Like uh it was it was a source of problems, let's say. Yes.
+
+[5:53] My dad and I were not in on good terms for a few years there. Yeah. But that's another story. So anyway, so like he does this uh he he basically he makes it happen the museum and then uh we we do the African American exhibit where it was like it was supposed to be it's gonna be you know great. But anyway so he negotiated with this place called the Africa Center, which is where the exhibit's gonna be and you know we could have actually Peter we should have you back on sometime just to talk about now that you know you you've kind of like put a a cap on that portion of your of your career of what it's like to start something like that.
+
+[6:33] You know what I mean? Like 'cause it's just a nutty nutty thing that you you you you know had to do like from passing out on a on a on a you know a cherry picker at three in the morning trying to like hang lights to you know negotiating negotiating with people because everyone everyone who tries to and and wow wow j John's dog doesn't like doesn't like putting things up at 2 a.m. AM anyway. Um so yeah no I mean, look, well, first of all, I would be remiss to not say there were a a lot of other people who worked on this uh along, you know, with me. Um, but yes.
+
+[7:12] Uh but I'm not talking to them right now. Yes. I would say uh yes, it's a lot of self-flagellation to get something like this off the ground. Uh starting up anything, anybody who started a business knows it's hard. I'd say starting a nonprofit is another level of interestingness, and then starting a nonprofit museum that requires like a brick and mortar presence is another level of of fun.
+
+[7:37] Well, I think it's like also like, you know, it's a brick and mortar thing, but it's also a creative endeavor. And I think you know, the the corners that you have to cut and the decisions that you have to make on the fly and then people hold you to later are just crazy. This is why, like, this is why like criticism in general I find so kind of upsetting. Um, because it's kind of like, I mean, uh look, a consumer of a museum event, a consumer of a drink or a dish or of a podcast, they shouldn't have to care. In fact, specifically, you know, I tell myself this all the time: nobody cares like what your problems are.
+
+[8:14] That's not what's important. Like you're asking their time or their money, and so you owe everything to them and they owe nothing to you. It's kind of like being a parent. Like, you owe everything to your kids and they don't really owe anything to you. And that's why you just take all the problems and you just push them down deep inside.
+
+[8:28] Just keep pushing. Yeah. That's my advice. Let the hate flow. Yeah, but it does like, but when critics, you know, don't kind of give any credit at all for the how hard it is to make anything happen.
+
+[8:40] It kind of ticks me a little bit. But anyway, so that said, uh, to back to Nastasia, uh, we can't the the fact that we're in a space at the Africa Center means that we cannot uh open unless we're at full capacity. We can't guarantee full capacity until 2022 because it takes X number of months to open something to decide you're gonna open it. So the CDC only yesterday came out and said that we might be back to normal by the end of the year, and it's just not enough time to flip all of the switches. So there you have it.
+
+[9:10] Um that's how uh stuff works when you're a scrappy uh startup. Anyway, so Peter went on to do uh Pinterest, but the reason we're having him on the show now is he is the host of his own uh hit podcast, Counterjam. You want to talk to us about it? Yeah, I mean, essentially, yeah, podcast uh on Food 52 network, by the way. Yep, it's on the Food 52 Podcast Network, and it's a show that looks at culture through food and music.
+
+[9:34] And so uh the basic gist of it is every episode takes on one cultural identity. Uh that could be a you know something like Korean American cultural identity, or it might even be a place, so like New York City. Um and then I think of it as sort of presenting various data points. So you're just showing the perspectives of two or three people from that community, and then also playing music uh that has been created by a couple artists from that community as well. And so um, yeah, I mean it's it's been it's been a lot of fun to put together, and I you know, I think I realized at a certain point there weren't a lot of food and music podcasts out there, or actually really any music podcast that actually played music, and I know why.
+
+[10:15] It's because legally it is a pain in the butt to play music on a podcast. And uh then I did what of course uh what I do, and I just took the on the sort of masochistic task of going through like getting licensing for all the music and uh negotiating each individual song. Oh, so you don't have like a blanket BMI asscat license, you have to go and like individually do each song? Yeah, yeah. So that's the thing about podcasting, it doesn't work with those like BMI ass cap licenses because the shows are downloaded.
+
+[10:50] And so they haven't figured this out yet? No. And so it's a known thing in the podcasting world. So when you hear music on a podcast, either A, they're doing it uh just hoping that they won't get busted or that they can do a fair use uh defense, or they're doing what I do, which is tracking down the licensing, and it's not even just one license. Usually every song is owned by at least two entities, and sometimes three or four.
+
+[11:12] And so um, yeah, because the public publishing gets doled out to like a billion different people, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh it is it has been uh somewhat masochistic. The way I've kind of gotten around it is I focus on independent artists, or I work I'll get music from guests, and they're more willing to help me jump through the hoops uh because they're on the show. So most recent episode has Femi Kuti and Made Kuti, and so they basically connected me with all the people I need to talk to to get all the different licenses.
+
+[11:39] Yeah. Wow. So I didn't realize so it's amazing that you know, even in your second time around, which I appreciate, that Peter so flagellates at all points in his life and never learns. So in this way, like we're all on this podcast that same way. Do you think that's a good thing?
+
+[11:56] You think it's a good way to be? Absolutely, you know what? I you know what I say, and this is what I sometimes said at MoFed, uh, was you know, if this were easy, everybody else would have done this, right? And so you have to kind of I mean there's a reason why there weren't a ton of food museums out there. And so I think there is something to looking for hard paths because that inherently means that probably nobody else is doing it.
+
+[12:17] And so you just have to be willing enough or crazy enough to do that. Yeah. And also it's not the show, so the show, the counter jam, right, it's not like uh so you'll have you'll have like three guests, let's say, but it's not like a string of interviews. You kind of cut them back into each other. So you'll go back and forth between the different sets of interviews, kind of tracing a through line of questioning on on your part.
+
+[12:42] Uh, and like, you know, for instance, you'll maybe you'll have some people who are in New York, some people who are in Nigeria, some people who are in LA, maybe not in the same show. But then, you know, you're you're cutting back and forth and then like punctuating it with music. Is that pretty much the the the stickity shtick? Yeah, all yeah, so that's also masochistic. Essentially, I just like get get the interviews and then listen to everything and then try to pull out themes, and I think about like mapping out the episode after that.
+
+[13:08] So um, yeah, it's it takes time. But it's fun. Yeah. So the very first one, of course, you decide to stay kind of close to home. You had your mom's on, which I thought was kind of kind of cool.
+
+[13:17] And you did Korean as your first as your first as your first thing. And by the way, this show, like the format of this show, kind of if you need to know what Peter is like actually kind of like, like that it's perfect, it's perfect Peter, right? Because it combines a like the the things that he likes, but also what he's been working on for years, which is kind of using food as a touchstone to talk about culture in general and kind of how people grew up. And that's really what the museum is about, and I think that's why Peter, you know, was kind of interested in in in that project anyways, food as a way to food as a way to discuss us as people, us as you know, as parts of our own culture and how to explore other cultures. You say that's fair.
+
+[14:05] Absolutely. Yeah. So his first one was, of course, his own, and he had um Roy Choi from from LA and he had uh he had his mom and and he had uh Margaret Chow on. So it's it was pretty funny. And what I learned most was that I didn't know Peter you're part of this customization.
+
+[14:26] You're part of this like I'm gonna just use what like regular like you know white whitebred Americans call call them all ramen but ramen customization right so you want to first go into the difference between ramen and ramen and and like describe describe uh I didn't realize you were part of this fat. I feel like this is a huge not a fat but it's it's a huge thing outside of the community now. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, I mean instant ramyan is it's I mean I've probably I've eaten many times my body weight over the course of my lifetime.
+
+[14:56] I actually remember the very first time I had instant ramyan it was Sapro Ichiban beef flavor. I freaking love this stuff. Jean can attest to the fact that I ate this like maybe 50% of the time for like lunch um at work. But yeah and then I mean I think for me like it's one of the ways I kind of learned to cook was by starting with instant ramyan. And of course instant ramyan is the Korean version of instant ramen uh which you know uh Nissan being the most well known brand in in the Japanese um market but Koreans have instant ramyan and I would say the main thing that distinguishes instant ramyan from Japanese instant ramen is the spiciness of the of the broth and then I would say typically you have a larger gauge noodle on the the Korean instant ramen than on the Japanese instant ramen.
+
+[15:43] You're a larger gauge noodle. That's right. That's my that's my nickname. Um and so then yeah, I mean then like the the great thing is that you can kind of like hack it in lots of different ways and um and you can do it super quickly. So I can make what I love is that I can think about instant ramyan and then I could have the bowl ready to eat within five minutes, um, which is pretty great.
+
+[16:02] And so yeah, I mean I have a whole like flow chart in my head of like do I do a dry noodle or a wet noodle? And if it's wet, like do I want a cream like a fatty broth or a non-fatty broth? That's my nickname. Wet noodle's my nickname. Um but tell us you have this you have this like kind of like uh fusion nightmare that's your favorite, this kind of carbonara one that you were talking to Roy Choi about.
+
+[16:23] And he said he was he said he was gonna go out and try it. I wonder whether he did. Why don't you describe your favorite? He actually sent me he sent me the picture right after the show. He made it and he loved it.
+
+[16:31] All right, so give me the give it to me. So here's the deal. Like basically you get the water bowling in your water kettle, take the bowl in the bowl, crack an egg into the bowl, drop uh two slices of American cheese into the bowl, take your powder packet of the the soup packet, put about two-thirds in there. You don't need as much because you're not using any water. Um, and then uh reserve the little noodle bits and reserve the dried vegetable, and then get your noodles boiling, and then it's gonna take about two and a half minutes to or to three minutes to get to your like perfect al dente texture, and then take the noodles out, drop them into the bowl in which you've put all this stuff, and then just mix that around.
+
+[17:10] Oh, pardon me, I know that this is a family show. Mix that stuff around. Peter's show is not a family show, by the way. There are more F drums being b uh dropped in Peter's show than you know. Yeah, and so then you know the egg, you beat the egg and it and then the the American cheese melts, and then there's like the noodle water that's clinging to the noodles, and it all comes together um and turns into a sort of sauce.
+
+[17:34] And then uh and then you I top it, and this is what I say is the pièce de resistance. Uh top it with the dried noodle bits, and you t you and you top it also with the dried vegetables. It just to add some texture. And voila, you've got basically kind of like I put in very heavy quotes, uh Carbonara um using uh instant ramyan. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[17:54] So that's the that's the Peter Kim. So when you make that at home, just know that you're making the Peter Kim. That's all I'm saying. And Nastasia, I don't know if you're you can eat it in like three slurps. Yeah.
+
+[18:05] I don't know if you realize this, Nastasia. Tell me if you did, but did you know that we not only have Peter Kim on the show, we have DJ Omega 60. I I know, I remember. I remember DJ Omega. That was how he contacted us to work for the museum before it was a museum.
+
+[18:22] That email. What? That email address was Omega 60? Then how is he not in your phone? Peter Kim Peter's still Peter Lawyer.
+
+[18:30] Peter Lawyer, but why wasn't it Peter Omega 60? I didn't take that seriously. Wow. Well, I don't think I ever explained to you what Omega 60. You did, you did eventually.
+
+[18:42] But yeah. Oh yeah. Still didn't take it seriously. Yeah. So Peter on his very first podcast, Peter ended it, I'm sure, because you know, also you could get the rights for it.
+
+[18:51] Now now I know that also you're building your life around what you can get the rights for. Played like some of his uh just coming back from the state coming back from Cameroon to the States, uh his uh his DJ song Alphaville, right? Yep. Yeah. We don't have rights for it, so we can't play it.
+
+[19:08] But if you want to hear, for all of you who have for years enjoyed Peter coming on the show, you should listen at the very least, to uh that first episode, so you can hear Peter's mom talking to him and also uh listen to uh Peter Peter as as Omega 60. Yeah. But um And there's a whole story behind the name, which I won't go into now, it's on the episode. But I I remember, you know, it's so funny. Like I remember at one point, like, and I've never really talked to people much, I I don't talk to people much about my music, but there was one time in Philly when I finally was like ready to tell somebody about Omega 60, and their reaction was, oh, you mean like the fatty acid?
+
+[19:46] And that's when I like I shrank back into my shell and I was like, I'm never telling anybody again. All right, so what while we're still talking about the show, because I you know I there's a I have a couple of questions, mostly about Ingira. Actually, let's just do the question first and we'll go back to the show. So two different people, Robert Lax and uh Capri Sun, I remember Capri Sun, uh, wrote in and said that they saw that you were making uh Injira and they like to make some. Now, again, I listeners to the show, peop people who know Peter will know that he not only has a connection with Cameroon from when he was in the Peace Corps, but also with um Ethiopia, uh, where he used to go on the regular because his wife was stationed there at the UN for years.
+
+[20:28] Uh and so you did Injira, so I have two questions. Can you talk about how you make it and where you get your Tef? That's from Robert Lax and well, and the exact same question basically from Capri Son. So you have two people want to know about Injera and Tef. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[20:41] Um so uh describe Injira first for those who don't know, by the way. Uh yeah, so Injera is a fermented crep like uh bread, and it is a staple of Injera. It's made with Tef, which is uh, as I understand it, the world's smallest grain. Um it has a very sour flavor owing to the fermentation process, and um, and then it has the flavor of teff, which is pretty distinctive. I don't even know how to describe it.
+
+[21:10] Um I feel like people like to use the word nutty for everything, but I don't like that. So um it tastes like teff. I know exactly. So it tastes like teff. Um and so if you want to learn it, then try tasting teff.
+
+[21:14] Um and uh and the way it's doesn't taste like whole wheat, it doesn't taste like buckwheat, right? It doesn't taste like any of those things. Yeah, yeah. It's just got its own flavor. Um and and so uh yeah, I mean, and then it's you probably know, you know, it's it's you when you eat it, it's it's you lay it flat on the on a platter, and then you put all these various soups and stews on top of it.
+
+[21:41] Um and so I in terms of sourcing Teff for the Injera, I mean, I have I had kind of an advantage because uh I had a big bag of Teff that we bought um that my wife and I bought in Ethiopia on our last trip there. And so I was I've just been using that. Um and I haven't really had to use any Tef I've sourced in the US for a while. So um so yeah, uh I don't I can't help you there. Um and then in terms of the overall process.
+
+[22:07] When you hold it, when you buy it, is it like is it like tiny like amaranth or like or like or like small millet or it did they do you buy a ground in Ethiopia already? Uh I bought it ground in Ethiopia. Okay, okay. And how long does it last? Um yeah, you know, I don't know, but like this in this case I I used the last of it and it was maybe two years out, and it was still good.
+
+[22:28] So anyway, um and then yeah, I mean like the process is like you you just I mean it's really simple actually. Uh it's simple in theory, harder hard to execute, but uh you just let you know add water and let it ferment, and then um it gets like this sour smell to it. And the time, as you all know, will depend on your temperature and you know the particular teft that you're using. Uh but figure three or four days, and then um and then yeah, when it's ready to go, the big thing is it's really hard to cook and keep intact. Um and then what you want to do is you want it to cook without like browning on the bottom and being but you want it fully cooked on the top, and that can be a little bit tricky.
+
+[23:15] Uh the biggest piece of advice I'd have for people is don't try on your first time to do it on your st on your stovetop, um, but start with an electric crep maker or something that provides a really even low heat. Uh because on the stove top it's just a nightmare. The just the the even the small variations and how your pan heats up just screws up the whole thing. So originally, like way back in the day, was it done with a ground product or was it wet ground like the way that you would do like uh Idley or Dosa better? Do you know?
+
+[23:44] I have no idea. And I had kind of difficult results to get it to work exactly the way I wanted, but I wasn't using a wet grinder. I wonder whether you could wet grind whole teft. Because what's easier to get here in the States? Do the the most of the African markets here are primarily West African markets, right?
+
+[24:16] Well, yeah, in New York City. But if you go to DC, I mean you're good. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[24:21] Oh, so New York City is not really a good Ethiopian market. Alright. But like there and then it's fairly easy to get the uh the ground teff? Yeah, I mean, Bob's Red Mill sells ground teff. I mean, it good?
+
+[24:35] It's uh I've not tried it, but uh I know that they do sell it. And I I don't think it's particularly hard to find Teff now. Um super expensive though, right? Or it used to be. Is it still?
+
+[24:45] I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I mean I've had the good fortune of just having the stuff I bought in Ethiopia. And are you a hundred percent Tef person or are you a 50-50 split? What do you do?
+
+[24:54] Oh man, eat definitely 100%. And that's also one thing I'd say is if you go to an Ethiopian restaurant, um, then this is actually a pretty universal practice across Ethiopian restaurants in the US, as far as I can tell. Um your injera you're gonna generally get at an Ethiopian restaurant in the US will be only partially Teff. And if you want the Tef, you have to call 24 hours in advance and they will make the Tef for you. Um the Tef and Jira for you.
+
+[25:18] Um and so if you're thinking of going to a restaurant, think of it a day in advance and call ahead and ask for the Tef in Jira. You have to pre-order a certain quantity. Uh, but it's definitely worth it. And in general that works like most Ethiopian restaurants, Eritrean restaurants will do that for you? Pretty much everyone that I have come across does that, yeah.
+
+[25:36] Did you have to bust out some you could do it in English? Like you don't have to know anything, you don't have to be special, like no, no, no. No. I and I think it's just, yeah, I mean, it's uh I think in general, I well, I don't know, I'm not even gonna hypothesize as to why they all are able to do it, but it it is the case. Yeah, so so try it.
+
+[25:53] Now for those that have never had it before, I've only had a hundred percent uh Tef in Jira once, and it was it was extremely sour. Like I assume that it doesn't always need to be as sour as the one that that I had. It's but it's definitely worthwhile to sample that, right? Don't you think so? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
+
+[26:12] I mean, I think that's like to me, like the having the super sour teff in jira is the is the perfect counterpoint to the stews. Um and definitely worth trying because that's what a lot of the stuff you'll find in Ethiopia is like. Um and yeah, it might not be your bag, um, but then if you're making it at home, you can just simply ferment it less. Right. Now do you think I have no idea.
+
+[26:40] I would I would guess you would have majority non Teff in your injury. Based on the flavor of what I've had in, you know, n basically you know New H New Haven and New York uh Ethiopian restaurants, I would say yeah, the vast majority of it is uh wheat flour. Like the good percentage of it. You know what I mean? Right, Peter, wouldn't you say?
+
+[27:04] Yeah. Yeah. I mean test also a lot more money. And you know, back in the day it was rarer, right? So there was a monetary reason not to do it.
+
+[27:11] And then I'm sure there's some we don't think Americans will like it kind of a situation as well, right? Yeah. I mean I'm sure like you I I don't know what the wholesale market is like for Tef, but you know, you can get flour for dirt cheap wholesale. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[27:27] Um but you should try every everyone should everyone should get the full everyone should get the full the full Tef a at least once. Uh all right, now back to back to your show for a minute. Uh so one of the through lines I noticed was and it's something I guess that we didn't we didn't talk about a lot um you know, you and I personally we were hanging out was kind of this feeling of being embarrassed by the by the food of your own culture. And it's a it's it comes up repeatedly in the in the in the podcasts um and it's kind of a an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing to to think about.
+
+[28:06] You want to talk about that as a through line? Yeah, I mean, I think that is like a recurring theme on the show is talking about what folks ate when they were kids. And, you know, I think, you know, it's it's a it's a remarkably common experience that for uh immigrant families, when you're a kid, you eat the stuff that your family gives you, and your family, if especially if they're recent immigrants, is gonna make you stuff that's uh is what they would have eaten in their home country. And that's gonna be in stark contrast to what everybody else around you is eating. And uh, and it's something you'll just hear over and over.
+
+[28:42] Like Korean kids are embarrassed of the smell of kimchi in their home when their friends come over, Indian kids are embarrassed about the smell of the various curries and chutneys that their parents are making when they're when their friends come over, um, and on down the line. And so, but what's interesting is of course, in generally speaking, as you get older, you start to you know realize there's nothing to be embarrassed about this, and in fact, you start owning it. And on top of that, I would say food culture in the US has shifted such that there is a larger acceptance of a wider spectrum of flavors, uh, even among people who don't aren't from the cultures that have those flavors. And so um, and so yeah, I mean, I think I think um it is it is one of these things that is kind of a through line. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:26] Uh yeah, Dan Dan, well, you and Dan the automator. So like some of the people he has on, he has Dan the Automator, you know, Dan Nakamura. He was saying that, you know, he specifically thinks that kind of at least his generation, his parents' generation, self-repression of their own culture, which extends to certain parts of the foods is due to the internment camps, right? That was one of the things that that that he mentioned. You you want to talk about about about that?
+
+[29:51] Yeah, so that that episode is actually one of my favorites because the three guests, and this almost just happened by chance. Um, one guest is a a woman who immigrated herself to Vancouver, uh Yumi Nagashima. And then the other guest was this rapper from North Carolina whose family immigrated. His parents immigrated from Japan and opened a restaurant in North Carolina. And then Dan is somebody who's been around and he's like third or fourth generation Japanese American.
+
+[30:15] And Yumi of course eats Japanese food all the time every day. So it's like kind of similar to me. And then Dan, it's like I didn't grow up eating Japanese food really. And so um right desire to conform. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
+
+[31:03] And so to me like I mean I've obviously thought a lot about like well I didn't say obviously but I have thought a lot about how uh horrific the internment camps the idea the fact that that happened is all that is but I had never really thought about the effect on culture, honestly, and that was interesting. And so and then the the episode that we haven't uh talking about yet is the one where you you do Nigerian food. You have on uh you have on Ego Noden, the comedian, and uh which which was funny because you're like lobbying a bunch of stuff at her, and like some of the stuff that you know you like from when you were there, stuff that's clinic classic, she doesn't like, which was kind of hilarious. Right. Um but you wanna you wanna you want to talk about you want to talk about your your connection?
+
+[31:47] Well, I will say something one thing first of all, because he he brings this up. So Peter Kim, Peter Kim, he when you know, after he graduated college, he went to the Peace Corps, he was in Cameroon, right? But you were you say you were on the border, like the the the neighbor the village you were in was kind of near the border with right? So it's like you feel like you're yeah, you feel you feel like you had exposure to kind of like uh food from that region, and also at the beginning of the show you mentioned that you know it's it's a kind of a false border anyway, right? Like the the country borders over there are all you know false borders anyway, and so you you feel like you know, you have you know, some you're connected somewhat to Nigerian food.
+
+[32:25] And um, so you you when you were in the you know, over there working, like one of the things you were doing was setting up like art education, right, for kids. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And Peter Kim, and you you might not know this, but I wish we could post this on the on our I know where you're going with this. Yeah.
+
+[32:43] Peter Kim has on his phone, and it's available within 13 seconds of asking him at any time, possibly the greatest artwork that's ever been made. It's it's um, you know, for those of you that for those of you that are, you know, here in New York City, you can go right now to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and see the Goya uh print and drawing exhibition, which is by the way, amazing. And I love I love Goya because like the kind of uh depth of kind of just how awful humans can be, but also kind of pathos and how like just weird humans can be. Like I think Goya is one of the greatest artists at just representing that, at just kind of like the holy crap of of life. Uh and you know, it's especially, you know, and if all you know about Francisco Goya is like, you know, the you know, small rich children in like red outfits, then you're really kind of missing out, I think, on the greatest part of one of my favorite artists.
+
+[33:41] Anyway, but this drawing that one of your students did is almost like a Goya, like a Goya print, like one of the capricos or something. It's like it's amazing drawing. And you want to describe this drawing, Peter? So this so what what I did in Cameroon was I paired public health education with art classes. So the kids were learning how to draw, but they'd also learn about the health issues associated with whatever they're learning to draw.
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+[34:07] And in this case, the person was learning about um yeah, diarrhea and uh I can't remember what it was exactly, but um something where the symptom was diarrhea. And so he drew uh depiction of a man squatting and having the most horrific explosive diarrhea you've ever seen, with like complete with flies you know, swimming around and like grimace on the face and the whole thing. And I will say that okay, the image is pretty remarkable, but I think Dave's reaction to that was even more remarkable because if you know Dave, it's like 90% of the time you fly something by him, you're like, eh, okay, whatever. Eh, yeah, whatever. And then like you put this drawing of a guy having diarrhea in front of Dave, and suddenly he's like, what is this masterpiece?
+
+[34:53] And then like you had this weird fascination with it. I mean, it is it is an amazing drawing, but um, I don't know that I ever really would have held it up as this sort of like uh emblematic example of of um I don't know what, but yeah. Well, it's just this guy is having a terrible moment. Yeah. And then it's just captured, right?
+
+[35:12] And so like he's not even like he has no like it's it's a person. So Nastasia, you like this picture too, right? I don't really remember it. What? What?
+
+[35:23] So if you look if you look at his at his eyes, right? He is a he he's a he's a person, right? So he has his own thoughts and dreams, and he's not happy about what's happening to him. But all of his agency in life has been removed. Like all of it.
+
+[35:41] He has no more agency, and he's just like a vehicle for his butt being set on spray. And so it's it's just it's just like this image of like resignation and debasement that's a big thing. Yeah, but Dave, I was talking to somebody about this a couple days ago about how about this picture? No, about how when you have to go like that and it's like that, you you become an animal. Like I when you're like this person has thoughts and hopes and dreams, like that's all of us.
+
+[36:12] Like when that happens to you. That's what makes it a great picture. But if you look if you look at this guy's if you yeah, but if you look at the guy's eyes, also like you never know, like maybe he has c cholera, maybe he's gonna die. Who knows? Because he he didn't even make it to like a bathroom or whatever.
+
+[36:27] He's just out there on spray, like with with like flies out. You you you don't know, like, you know, you don't know what the future holds for this person. You know what I mean? And it's it's all it's oral and formal analysis, David. Yeah, Columbia, Columbia.
+
+[36:43] I know we're doing like an art critique on this. I have you know, I'm a trained MFA folks. I get to say whatever I won't. But uh oh yeah. Well I I can I'm happy to share this image, um, and you you can put it out on on Twitter so folks can uh can see the the wonder and beauty of this.
+
+[36:59] It's the flies, yeah. Well you have permission from the artist. You said you kept in contact with this person, right? Oh, I guess you know what? You're right.
+
+[37:05] This is something we know. I will have to we'll have to ask him about that. Yeah, there's there's the trained MFA talking about do we have the rights on the art? Anyway. Uh yeah.
+
+[37:16] So uh by the way, by the way, uh in that episode, Peter Kim said the most Peter Kim thing ever, Nastasia. You'll I think you get he said, There's something so satisfying about the tactile sensation of manipulating a doughy ball. I rewound and listened to him saying that like three times because he is talking about uh fufu. You want to talk about you want to talk fufu and all the various fufus? Yeah, so um fufu is it's uh yeah, I mean it's it's pounded starch or a porridge that's um you know it can so it can be a pounded starch like yams or cassava, or it can be a porridge made from you know grains uh mixed with water.
+
+[38:03] And what's what's what's common about foo foo, whatever the ingredient is, um, is that it's essentially ends up being a lump of starch that you uh rip little pieces off of with your hand, and then you manipulate the doughy bowl in your hand and then you dip it into a stew and eat it that way. And you know, and I say this on the show, but like it's it's inherently a neutral uh staple. I mean it's not like it's not full of flavor, but it's the whole the it's the point of it is to be something that you scoop up sauce with. So it can be it can be more than a lot of things. I hate it when people like this foo fufu as being as being bland because I'm like, that's the that's the point.
+
+[38:37] It's like rice or like anything that's just like a a a plain like staple. What's that? But but it can be more or less sour as well, though, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[38:44] So you can do it with fermented cassava, and then you're gonna get a little more of a sour flavor, for example. Um like neutral, like I neutral is such a bad term for any grain product, right? I mean, it's like does anyone actually has anyone ever come home to a house where someone has cooked rice and not think that rice has like a thing? You know what I mean? Like grains have their own smell, their own taste.
+
+[39:08] Yeah, no? Absolutely. You know, of course it has its flavor, but I've seen people where they will blast fufu for being flavorless, and sure it every fufu has a flavor, of course, um, like any other kind of staple, but it's not like flavorful like the stew that you're supposed to eat it with is. Right. So anyway, but I will say that I mean I do love foo fu.
+
+[39:30] Um I think the general mode of eating is something I find very enjoyable. It is something I ate a lot of while I was in Cameroon, and then I will occasionally make um at home when especially if I go to any kind of West African restaurant, I'll always opt for the fufu. Um it's it's nice. I mean, like you just yeah, I mean, there's a motion you do with the ball of fufu in your hand, and then you turn it into a little scoop, at least I do. Um and I love it.
+
+[39:52] And what would you say about the tactile sensation of manipulating that doughy ball? How would you categorize it? I think you can I think anybody can relate with this. Like you have a like a soft squishy thing in your hand, and you oh god, this is gonna go in the wrong direction. But like, you know what I mean?
+
+[40:08] Like you have like something but you know, if you have something like it's like it's like it's like having play-doh in your hand. It's it's a pleasant thing to squeeze. Nastasia, what are your thoughts? Uh you know what I'm thinking about. My favorite story ever.
+
+[40:22] Oh, oh, favorite Peter story? Well, okay. We can't have Peter on without talking about the story. Mainly because well, for those of you that don't know, like Peter coined a phrase about Nastasi. You wanna you want to talk about this phrase, Peter?
+
+[40:41] Are you talking about the name I have for her? No, no, no. I'm talking about yeah, the German, the German term. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Stassenfreude.
+
+[40:50] Because as I think many of the listeners of this show have gleaned, what brings great joy to Nastasia is to see other people suffer. And it's not that she's created the suffering. She has not in any way intervened in people's lives to create the suffering. It's just observing it and and basking in it. And so this it's a special brand of, of course, Schadenfreude, which is the word probably you all know.
+
+[41:11] And it's it's Stassenfreude. Yeah, because it's very specifically like Nastasia like. Oh, yeah. Anyway, anyway, so who's gonna tell this one? If this has been told a million times on the show, I guess Peter's never telling it.
+
+[41:25] No, no, no. Oh god, we're not no. Nastasia, if if this is coming out, it's you're you're telling the story, not me. Yeah, yeah. You know what, Nastasia?
+
+[41:31] You always make up people do this. Peter walked in on Dave taking a dump. The way you tell it is like freaking. And it was one of the top five moments of my life. Yeah.
+
+[41:47] Nastasia, for for anyone that enjoys any of the products or anything that that Booker and Dax has ever made or done, Nastasia would have quit long ago if she hadn't had her batteries recharged at uh Williams College by this interaction. It gave her like maybe three years of of of gas in the tank. Right? I have never seen such pure joy on Nastasia's face as when that happened. I mean, it was pure, pure joy.
+
+[42:15] Yeah. Yeah. It was great. I wish we had a video of Nastasia's face. According to Peter, she was like like almost vibrating.
+
+[42:26] I reached what they reached Nirvana. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:32] She she was on the ground and just like, I mean, I don't know. Like it's what I imagine like somebody who's like taking every drug combined. It wasn't a secondhand experience. I got to experience like most people don't get to see the thing, you know. But I got to see what it's like, it's like train spotting and like the such a perfect day.
+
+[42:52] And like Nastas just floating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:58] Yeah. All right. Let's get to some questions. Uh as usual, uh Peter. And like what do you have anything?
+
+[43:04] You have anything else you want to say before we do that? Who's who's been your favorite? Guess Peter. Oh, that's a good question. Uh I would say Femi Kuti and Made Kuti were pretty amazing.
+
+[43:12] And I mean, not just because like that's like, I mean, for me, like, just it's music that I legit have loved for so long and really shaped me a lot. Uh, but they were just a lot of fun. This it was a lot of fun to have the father-son combo on. Um for those that don't know, this is Phila's son and grandson, right? That's right.
+
+[43:27] Yeah, yeah. Um and Femi played with Fela. So Egypt 70 was one of the bands that backed up. Fela and Femi was into Egypt 70, and then Made has learned from his father as well. And so there's it's a really great lineage, and their music, all of it's really great.
+
+[43:41] Um, but yeah, no, that's my favorite guest. They also have a club, they also have a club restaurant, right? Yeah, called the Shrine. Did you go? You ever gone?
+
+[43:49] No, I mean, I've never been to Nigeria, so I would love to go. Um but yeah, no, that's it. And I'd say, yeah, tune in to counter Jam, counterjam.com, and uh yeah, let me know what you think. Well, you start that episode, they have to kick in a generator to get the uh they have to kick in their second generator because their first generator died, and apparently their electricity was cutting out constantly. So Peter's like nervous he's not gonna get the interview, but it ends up actually being like they actually they end up being really cool, you know what I mean?
+
+[44:17] Like, not like I mean, obviously they're cool, but I mean like they end up being kind of like cool to talk to, right? Yeah, they were great. Um it was definitely challenging because there was such a heavy delay that we had to like yeah, there was there was a lot of a lot of confusion from the delay too, but but it worked out. Yeah, yeah. Uh and uh you well, you pose like it's the it's a I know what this is like.
+
+[44:42] There's a huge father-son argument in this episode that boils down because Peter like has uh the question that he asks, so like you know, nostasia's always like how much to cut off your right toe, how much to whatever, you know what I mean? And uh, you know, how much to you know do X horrible thing with X horrible person. Uh but Peter, what's your stock question? If you were stuck on a desert island and you had to eat one dish for the rest of your life, what would it be? But you also, for the purposes of your show, you narrow it to like one that's within the culture you're talking about.
+
+[45:16] That's right. It's not like, you know what I really like? Big Max. Love them. Right.
+
+[45:21] Uh yeah, so it's uh yeah, so but then it's not the most delicious. It's like what would act you would actually want to eat ever day in and day out for the rest of your life. And for anyone that like for most people they they tend to cop out and try to like pick something that includes like everything. You know what I mean? Like they want like everything in one dish.
+
+[45:42] Right. But the the hilarious thing is is that so like um the sun the the grand's the son or grand's manages look at my days, like he mentions this, he mentions uh uh like a a dish with both turkey and chicken, and his dad loses loses his mind on the sun. And he's like, what's so messed up is that he he has both plantain and starch, which I guess you know you could count kind of in similar kind of baskets. And so the son's like, you have both plantain and starch. Why can't I have both chicken and turkey?
+
+[46:16] And that and the dad's like, because it's two different bodies, it's two different living bodies. You can't bring two. You can't bring two. You know what I mean? It's just it's kind of great kind of back and forth, I thought.
+
+[46:27] I don't know. I found it. Oh, yeah, it was great. It was great. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[46:31] Uh yeah. So uh any any other questions you have, Anastasia, before we go into uh our kind of standard cooking issue style questions. No, Peter, I think uh, yeah, I'm so happy to see your show doing so well. Yeah, who you got in your next season? Apparently it's uh coming up in a couple of weeks.
+
+[46:49] Yeah, I just I've got uh one of the episodes that we're doing is on Jewish American food. And I've got uh Aitan Bernath and Ilana Glazer on for that one. So that'll be fun. Yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, I'm working.
+
+[47:01] I other ones I can't uh disclose this yet, but it's gonna be it's gonna be great. This episode is brought to you by just egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based customers in your doors with easy to use, just egg.
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+[48:00] Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble, ready for omelets, fratatas, stir-fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre-baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads. Chef Jose Andreas calls Just Egg mind blowing. And Bonapet says it's so good I feel guilty eating it.
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+[48:24] Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.st forward slash H R N. This episode is brought to you by the Great Grow Along, a three-day hosted virtual garden festival connecting you with the influencers, tastemakers, and cutting edge content of today's gardening world. The Great Grow Along will feature 40 plus sessions on topics ranging from houseplants to DIY landscaping. New plant parents and first time gardeners will gain practical advice and creative inspiration from celebrated garden experts and industry leaders.
+
+[49:05] Costing $29.95, tickets allow attendees to mix and match a wide range of sessions, or choose to follow one of the conference's six tracks, which include edible gardening, urban gardening, pollinators and plants, DIY landscaping, house plants, and dig deeper. The Great Grow Along will take place March 19th through 21st, 2021. Sign up at greatgrowlong.com. Alright, so let's do some uh let's do some stuff. Okay, you want to go like full, like full nostasia doesn't care or like halfway.
+
+[49:46] You should try to do both. Alright, I'm gonna go full you don't care. From Monty via email, uh dear cooking issues crew, hope you're staying warm and hydrated. Uh, what would you look for in a freeze dryer? They seem pretty expensive.
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+[49:59] Are there any DIY alternatives? I have a friend who travels on motorcycles quite a bit and wants to freeze dry his homegrown produce. Thanks. Monty from Jacksonville, uh, Oregon. All right.
+
+[50:08] So uh traditional freeze dryers are extraordinarily expensive and they have relatively low uh throughput. Uh and you can't really DIY it because you need uh a coal trap. It needs to be extremely cold. Uh and you know, and most things that you could consider to be DIY freeze drying, like don't end up looking like what you want from a freeze dryer. I'm thinking like chunyos from like uh Peru, where you know you could do that just by literally freezing it and then desiccating them and back and forth, but that's not what you're looking for.
+
+[50:40] There is now so cheap for a freeze dryer is about five grand. And you can get one for I think between three and five grand now that's meant for food preppers. And during the COVID time, I'm sure everyone who's prepping food uh, you know, for the future zombie apocalypse and whatnot, and for when we get a disease that wipes us out even harder than this one, I'm sure the price the probably probably the price has stayed constant actually, the same way grain mills have, but they're out there now. I forget the name of the company. It's like something harvest, like good harvest or good nature harvest, and it gets relatively good reviews.
+
+[51:12] It's relatively home friendly, and it's relatively expensive relative to the $10,000 lab conco freeze dryers that you could get. But look for a large enough cavity that you can do a good amount of product and stay away from the ones that just freeze-dry bottles because therein lies a pain in your butt. But that's what most lab people want to do. Was that a decent answer? Fast enough?
+
+[51:29] Yes. All right. Uh all right. There is a carbonation question. Uh what do you think?
+
+[51:36] No. Stay away from it. Remember, that was the whole point of you making that video that you would never answer another one. So you would point them to the video. This person wants to carbonate cocktails with a McCann carbonator.
+
+[51:48] I would say stay away from it. So get your book or talk to somebody else. Wow. I feel like people, here's the thing. If you're asking a carbonation question, it's like just a trigger for Nastasia.
+
+[52:00] Oh, it's because you told me to keep you on track, and when someone in the future asks about carbonation, that you would point them to the resources that you made because you spent a lot of time on them. So I'm just doing what you said. But if you don't want to, go ahead and answer it. Somehow I'm a bad guy again. I don't even know what it is.
+
+[52:16] It's it's not the same question that the video addresses is the problem, but it's just you in general just hate any carbonation question. It's like me asking you to do quick agar freeze thaw. Or not quick agar freeze. Wow. Wow.
+
+[52:31] Stirring stirring the pot. This is this is Peter doing his own Stasen Freude. This is Peter doing his own Stasenfreude. I'm just kidding. Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah.
+
+[52:40] Yeah. Do you do people still say half ingest whole in earnest? I grew up hearing that constantly. No. People don't use that phrase anymore.
+
+[52:48] No. It's a good one. Because it's like every time someone's joking, they really mean it. When was the last time someone was joking and they were just joking? Right, right.
+
+[52:57] Well, the other classic thing you can always say is bless bless his heart, right? Oh yeah. Bless your heart. Did you say did you say that up in Illinois? I thought that was only Southerners who said that.
+
+[53:06] You said that in the Illinois. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I look I you know I grew up in a Hallmark store.
+
+[53:12] Right. Oh my God, that's true. Another picture that we can share because Peter owns it is a very depressed looking young Peter Kim on a bench. No, I don't think he's on the bench. Isn't he?
+
+[53:24] Doesn't he have his helmet off? He has his helmet off. I thought he was seated. Peter, what is it? In my mind he's like a precious moment.
+
+[53:32] Yeah. Yes. With the helmet off. Because we had holiday parties and, you know, I had to be the person who dressed up as a president. It's a family business, so who else is gonna wear the precious moment costume?
+
+[53:45] Uh I took pictures with all these. What about your brother? Did you make your brother do it? My brother was already in college at that point. Okay.
+
+[53:51] All right. So like I want like in my mind, here's what it is. It's like you had just listened to Fogarty's put me in coach, I'm ready to play. You're dressed as for some reason this minor league baseball team has a precious moments thing as their mascot. And you've decided that you can play center field because the center fielder is injured, and you know you're at least as good as the injured center fielder, and you take off the the the furry head, and the coach still says no, and you sit on the bench and you look down.
+
+[54:23] That's what it says to me. This picture. Like this, it's that's the image in my mind. Man. So and like the thing is like, do you regret sharing these kinds of things with Nastasia and me, knowing that like as soon as we see that kind of image of whatever you want to call that, that it's there forever and it's like it never goes away.
+
+[54:47] No, I'm I'm happy if I can if I can bring a brief moment of joy to your lives. Yeah. I feel like we share equally like horrible things. Yeah. You hardly ever share well, there's the one.
+
+[55:00] We can't talk about it. But Nastasia, you try to keep your horrible stuff under the like close to the chest there. You know what I mean? You're not you're not so much on sharing your heart. That's not true.
+
+[55:11] Okay. I showed you guys the most horrible thing. That's like the that's true. So what so after I would say after maybe eight, nine years. Like, and so like, uh, you know, we we've been and and Peter's been in in the, you know, we've known each other maybe we've been only together like two two years as uh working together when we met Peter, right?
+
+[55:34] Right, Nastasia, someone like that? Yeah, maybe. So it's so it's been like a long time. Anyway, yeah. It was like maybe eight years before Nastasia shared this one thing, and I will never share it with the world.
+
+[55:43] Ever. It's only because I couldn't find photo evidence, and as soon as I did, I shared it. It wasn't photo evidence, video evidence. Video and photo evidence. Yeah, it's out there, people.
+
+[55:55] It's not out there, but it's out there. It's not out. Yeah. Uh all right. So uh 91 uh Alex, uh Alexander uh, I think it's I can't remember whether it's Tile guard or tailguard, sorry.
+
+[56:08] Uh you told me how to pronounce it last time. Uh had a honey dehydration question, and uh uh all he wants is to he's trying to get all of the liquid out of honey to make it into a powder and use it as a sugar and doesn't care about the aroma or anything like that. Yeah, just throw it in a dehydrator. It'll dehydrate. Just be aware that uh it is extremely uh hygroscopic, so it will reabsorb moisture.
+
+[56:31] So don't expect to have free, you know, a free-flowing honey powder that you can just leave out uh and have it be uh working for you. Uh from Keith Fitzgerald via email, and I spoke to Peter a little bit about this uh beforehand. Had a question. Hope all is good. Could you ask Dave?
+
+[56:46] Uh and I'll just tell you no, I do not have any experience. Do I have any experience with the Korean machine uh called the Oku O C O O O. I'm assuming it's pronounced Oku pressure cooker. I just obtained one and I'm figuring it out. It'd be great to hear if I have any knowledge about uh double chambered pressure cookers.
+
+[57:03] And as a side question, what's the best way to cook welks? Welks? I didn't even see that last section of the question. Thanks, Keith, an Irish listener. Well, I've never had Irish welks, but I'm assuming that because it's the Atlantic, they're pretty similar to the welks that we used to catch off of uh the uh coast of Cape Cott.
+
+[57:19] You got any of you guys other guys cook welk? No. No. So welk is kind of like a it's like a crappy conch. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[57:28] So it's like imagine like they look like like conch. Do you are you a conch or a conch? What do you what do you guys? What do you prefer? I'll use whatever you prefer.
+
+[57:36] Conch. Conk? Alright. So like, whereas like the conch is this big kind of like awesome shell, and you can like turn it into like a horn and it like looks pretty, and you can get the big thing out and you can slice it and pound it and do all this other kind of stuff with it, and they sell it canned. Like welk looks like that, but like busted.
+
+[57:56] You know what I mean? Like small, like ish, dingy. And then when you pull it out, like it it doesn't necessarily have a so you guys ever like you guys have all eaten some form of snaily slash welky slash conky thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[58:11] So you know how you when you pull it out, you have the muscle, which is what everyone's looking for, and then you got the the the goopa loop afterwards that you know the stuff that you trim off and then pitch, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I feel that the welk has an unfavorable amount of goopa loop to uh the to the to the meat.
+
+[58:29] And also the welk that I used to catch live, like had like a real kind of like just kind of like a musty kind of kind of like like seaweed that's been out too long, kind of like kind of, you know, like aquarium water taste to it. And by way, when I say fresh, literally like I would go into the water, get them, pull them out, and cook them right away. So it's not like they were stale or anything like that. Um so I'm gonna say whatever I did to them. Now, fair fair point.
+
+[59:03] The last time I did this was when I was 18. So it's been, you know, 30 years since I have, or 32 years since I have done this. Uh so I'm gonna go ahead and say I have no good knowledge on you, but whatever I did, don't do that. Like, I would assume that you have to peel off and trim more than I did and maybe beat the ever loving hell out of it. Now, if you want to talk about getting caw hogs, I don't know if you have caw hogs over there in Ireland, but those you make stuffies with.
+
+[59:29] You guys like stuffies? I have not had a lot of stuffy, but they look really good. Yeah, stuffed clam, man. Who doesn't mean Nastasia probably doesn't like a stuffed clam? I'm just guessing based on Nastasia's, like You're right.
+
+[59:42] I don't like it. Yeah. Why don't you like a stuffed clam? I don't know. It doesn't matter.
+
+[59:46] Go. What about you, John? Yes. Big fan. Yeah, right?
+
+[59:51] Yeah, good. Yeah, delicious. And you can make them in all different kinds of flavors. Like you take a really tough clam, you chop it up, you mix it with like breadcrumbs and other cool stuff, and then you broil it. Well, well, I mean, like, what's not to uh what's not to enjoy, you know?
+
+[1:00:05] To me, it evokes it evokes like stuffed uh potato skins from like TGI Fridays, which might sound horrible, but I love that, and I still dream about those potato skins. TGI Fridays is famous for their potato skins. They have spent millions of dollars to make potato skins such that you will enjoy them, Peter. There's no shame in enjoying a TGI Friday potato skin. I don't think.
+
+[1:00:29] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you know I find that my potato skins, maybe I'll work on it, aren't very good. What about you? Have you ever made a potato skin that you really liked?
+
+[1:00:38] I've tried making, I think I turned out alright, but I don't know that I really yeah, I don't know. This the skin's never as crunchy as I want. Right, right. It gets pa it gets papery. Do you know what I'm saying?
+
+[1:00:48] Right. Like, I I haven't fully worked it out yet. Um anyone else here, a Tato Skin fan have good good feelings on potato skins? Yeah? Do you like, but have you ever made them?
+
+[1:00:59] Or do you just buy them for TGI Fridays? Never made them. I made them. Yeah, I couldn't get them as crispy as I wanted. So maybe we should work on this.
+
+[1:01:07] Maybe I'll work on it for the miracle. It is a moisture management problem, and I do have a whole section on potatoes. Oh, Dave, we're supposed to talk about the quest. Oh, alright, give me a second. Let me uh so this this pressure cooker, because I I mentioned Keith Keith's question, and I haven't I have not used one of these things, but I had Peter look at it right right before the show to see whether like he had any sort of like knowledge of where this might have come from.
+
+[1:01:31] But what it is is it's like a ceramic, there's like a uh a pot and a steamer insert that fit into a stainless steel uh vessel. So there's a stainless steel pressure cooker with a pressure cooker lid, but interposed between the lid and the um and the and the and the base, you can put these ceramic pots. So it's like a combination like pressure cooker, it's like an like a kind of like a very expensive hardcore instapot thing, but I think it's made for commercial commercial use. So do you see any kind of you see anything in this that rings any bells, Peter, or anything that uh gives you any any feelings about cooking in crockery in general? No, but I've just it when you mentioned it, I did the quick Google image search of stuff you could make with it, and it looks pretty phenomenal.
+
+[1:02:16] Yeah, I mean, I like ceramics. I do like ceramic. I'm not I'm not like so. Nastasi and I uh once went to Paula Wolford's house. You guys remember the author Paula Wolford?
+
+[1:02:28] Anyway, so we went with with Harold McGee uh, and this was I believe right after we had eaten 10,000 uh citrus uh citrus fruits, and I was on my way to trying to go set myself on spray. The best day of my life where my butt was set on spray, but I was spraying out orange juice. It was the best, it was the best thing ever. Anyway, so on the way home from that, uh we went and stopped at Paula Wolford's house, and she was a she is a huge devotee, was uh uh I don't know whether she's still around of uh cooking in clay. And she wrote a book on cooking in clay, and there's a huge group of people who are like extremely stoked about cooking in uh in clay, and I've just never become one of these clay heads.
+
+[1:03:10] Any of you guys clayheads? No. No, all right. I don't really get it. I don't that but that's the thing.
+
+[1:03:17] I don't really understand. I don't understand what it is that the clay is doing. And all the explanations are extremely mystical. You know what I mean? Yeah.
+
+[1:03:25] It's like baking in salt. I don't quite understand that either. Well, baking in salt, so in the 70s, baking in salt like was a huge thing. So they had two things that that people did in the 70s. It was chicken and salt and and fish in salt.
+
+[1:03:38] Like a whole fish in salt and a and and a whole chicken in salt. And so the idea is that you that this I guess that you have a bunch of salt around, which of course nobody did in the 70s. We just had regular, like, you know, people didn't. I don't feel like the kosher salt had become something that everyone had, you know, in their in their pantries unless they you know needed it for cultural reasons. Anyways, so you you pack all of the salt around whatever you're gonna cook, and it supposedly forms a shell, almost like baking in clay, right?
+
+[1:04:05] So it's about sealing something in moisture. It's almost like it's like akin to like on papillot or or sou vide or something like this. But so my mom did it with a with a chicken, and uh this was you know, she was going out with my stepfather, but they hadn't been married yet, so this had to have been 1982. So I was I was 11. And uh so how many years ago?
+
+[1:04:30] I'm I'll be 50 in two weeks, so you can do the math. Like, and the salt collapsed, and there was no barrier. I don't know whether you're supposed to put a barrier. My mom had no barrier. The salt was literally packed around the chicken, and my mom's a phenomenal cook, by the way.
+
+[1:04:44] But the salt collapsed into the chicken, and it was the saltiest chicken. Like, without any shadow of a doubt, the saltiest object that I've ever put into my mouth, and and I've eaten straight salted capers. You know what I mean? So it was like, it was just intense. And so because it was the eight, you know, I guess it was early 80s, I guess it wasn't 70s.
+
+[1:05:11] Um, you know, you didn't say anything about it. You just ate it. You know what I mean? And so we, you know, that's the thing I don't understand about kids these days. They always have something to say about the food that's served to them.
+
+[1:05:21] It's like when I was a kid, you just ate whatever was. What? No, you just ate it, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Nastasia, Nastasia has all sorts of things to say about parenting.
+
+[1:05:31] Uh we'll wait and see. She has she witnesses a lot of it. Yeah, kind of. Uh so anyway, so like we didn't say anything, but to this day, every once in a while, my stepfather's like, remember the salt chicken? I'm like, I'm like, Gerard, what the hell, man?
+
+[1:05:47] You gotta like, yeah, you know, my mom is my mom is 70, right? And she's cooked some of the best things that he's ever eaten in his whole life. You know what I mean? Plus, she is a pediatric cardiologist and runs a tran started and runs a pediatric transplant program, the first pediatric heart transplant program in the United States, right? So, like, you know, and he won't let her forget this one time that we had a super salty chicken.
+
+[1:06:16] I just don't feel it's right to bring that up, you know? Remember the chicken Lynn. No one's gonna come down on the side of Gerard here. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:06:27] Lynn. Lynn, you remember the chicken? You remember how salty it was? Yeah. And to be fair, I imagine I imagine that baking and salt, and like I haven't had a lot of stuff baked in salt really, but like it's you know, it's festive, and it's it's fun.
+
+[1:06:39] It's a fun surprise to crack things open. But I just say, like, I don't really understand beyond that like why why you would do it which may be reasonable enough I mean yeah yeah you ever go to uh Turkey yeah I was in Turkey yeah you ever have that that that the thing baked in clay in turkey and then you go outside the restaurant and it's just there's piles of broken clay vessels. Yeah yeah I mean that's just kind of cool I don't even care how the thing tastes so I mean and there there's something to be said for yeah presentation format ceremony and it's great but yeah yeah John as the as they well both Peter and John are both a francophiles and francophones but do you guys enjoy the the fish that's cooked in a crust and then open table side and debone by the waiter I haven't had it but I mean I'd really I would order that to see that done in front of me I think that'd be pretty cool. Oh yeah yeah I mean to me again it doesn't matter how it tastes like the presentation is almost enough in that case I mean I mean I guess I wouldn't kind of think I would want to do I would put beef wellington in this same bucket it's like a delicious combination of things but really it's also about like the surprise of what cutting into that yeah yeah but I guess the nice thing about the fish is that they do it tableside and then they do you enjoy the old school like the the French way of not touching it and just using the two like using the fork and the and the thing to to get all of the bones out lay them aside and have the four it's always with a flat fish and have like the four perfect fillets. You don't think that's I mean it's sure class I love it.
+
+[1:08:13] Right? Yeah it's magic right I mean, it's like, it's like uh, you know, that's not the way I cook, it's not the way I would ever cook, but like when someone like is like, I'm just gonna go dot all these I's and cross all these T's and do it, you're like, props, no? Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:08:31] Uh all right, so wait. So we have to talk about the quest, but I want I'm gonna ask you guys this question. I'll answer it next time because I don't understand exactly what's being gotten at. All right. So listen to this question, and then you guys tell me what it means, and then I will think about it for next time.
+
+[1:08:46] Devin Patel wrote, unless you have an answer. Devin Patel wrote in, uh, I've recently been looking at purchasing equipment, and I'm trying to distinguish between what is sold as quote unquote industry standard. Okay, to not bring about a spotlight and hurt someone's business, I want to keep it vague. So Devin's not telling me exactly which company is saying that they're an industry standard, but I I'm finding it hard to read between the lines here. All right.
+
+[1:09:10] So my question is when looking at industry specific equipment to purchase and comparing it to another piece of equipment that is industry adjacent, but looks and does exactly the same thing, like a scale. So I guess buying like a butcher scale versus like a uh uh counting scale for a deli versus like a postal scale. I mean, maybe that's what we're talking about. How can you tell if the materials and build are quality and that the price just and the price doesn't just get jacked up because it's specific for an industry? So I guess medical stuff and and stuff like that could be is that you think that's what you think that's what uh what he's talking about?
+
+[1:09:45] You have any thoughts on it before should I just cogitate on it? I am annoying. Sounds like everything you try and do. Like finding parts and finding cheaper parts in like related industries that do achieve the same thing in the end. Right.
+
+[1:09:58] Like I you like use well when I started out in this, it was about like finding things from other industries that chefs didn't use. There was a mad dash to get any piece of equipment and use it. That's how, like, you know, ultrasonic homogenizers and ultrasonic cleaners and all sorts of uh, you know, rotovaps and all this, you know, even merging circulators. It started with the emergent circulator, and that was how everyone was like, let me look at anything else that can be used for for cooking. But I think here it's more like there is something already that's being sold for cooking, but I want to use it for something else, right?
+
+[1:10:30] And how do you how do you tell? I mean, the first thing is whether it's food grade or not, right? That's the that's that's the other that's the other issue. Uh also Devin believes this, and I'm gonna throw this out there, because we have to talk about the quest, sorry, real quick, Matt. Uh and Peter will appreciate this because it's a horror show.
+
+[1:10:46] Uh anyway, so Devin says, salted taste for recipes is a cop-out. This is Devin's saying this. This is a statement. Just saying, if it's your recipe, then you get uh to decide how much salt it gets and the powers in your hands, all the salty power, sincerely, Devin. I don't know that I agree, I don't know that I agree with that just because it's so hard to control with what raw ingredients you have and any other kind of changes or mistakes.
+
+[1:11:16] Whenever you read someone's recipe, when you write a recipe, you have to write a recipe knowing it will be mangled, right? Go and read any review section of any recipe website or reviews of recipes in a book. They're like, I loved it, but I said I I substituted beef for chicken, I omitted the starch, and I added a whole bunch of cheese, and I loved it. You know what I mean? Or I did that and I hated it.
+
+[1:11:43] The recipe didn't work. All I did was substitute, I took away the stuff and I added cheese and I substituted the beef for the chicken. But the recipe didn't work. What a moron. And so, like, you know, when you know that you're gonna have your recipe completely butchered, right?
+
+[1:11:58] And you don't know exactly what ingredients someone's gonna use, like um, it's very hard to write a specific amount of salt. And also, salt is the ingredient that people f up the most because someone will someone will say, first of all, like someone will say two teaspoons kosher salt. They won't even say whether it's mortem or diamond, right? Which is you know, you're already off by a factor of uh uh a third at least. And then God forbid someone used like you know, granulated uh iodized.
+
+[1:12:26] It's just almost impossible, and no one reads that fine, and nobody gives enough of a crap to actually get that stuff right. And so I think it's almost impossible to write salt into a recipe uh accurately. What do you guys think? Unless you do it by weight. Unless you do it by weight, but then but then you still have to put a teaspoon or a volumetric measurement next to it because otherwise people are gonna be like, I don't know how I'm weigh salt, you know what I mean?
+
+[1:12:50] I don't know. I think it's just really difficult. I don't think it's a I don't in other words, and people really do have radically different salt tolerances, and if you're trying to give someone a recipe, I think there's really something to be said for allowing somebody to adjust your vision because they're gonna eat it, you're not gonna eat it. You know what I mean? Like they're gonna eat it.
+
+[1:13:11] So, like, you know, I find when I'm doing a recipe, I will tell someone how I like it, but then I'm not gonna eat it. So I just you know, I don't know. I don't think it's a cop out. I think it's a cop, it's a cop-out to not measure it and tell people tell people what you think, but I don't think it's a cop out to tell people why there's fudge or wiggle room. Yeah, I'm I'm on the same page as you.
+
+[1:13:28] I think the places where I want to have salt measured out is a baking recipe. And and then actually another area where it's actually you don't see the salt often measured out, uh, but it should be for sure, is with pickles. Like it's really hard. Sometimes it's really hard to find a pickle recipe where they give you the actual just like by weight percentage of salt that they want to aim at. And to me, that's really annoying.
+
+[1:13:52] Oh, super annoying. Super annoying. If first of all, like I don't understand, like everyone should go back and just the way every brine recipe should work, is it should be the amount of salt for total weight of brine plus. Exactly. Yeah.
+
+[1:14:10] I hate it that you have like, oh, add a like a cup of salt and then add water to fill the jar. I'm like, well, how big's the jar? Like how dense is your like ingredient. I mean, I mean, it's like it's crazy. Yeah, right.
+
+[1:14:22] And so that especially goes, you know, like well, like uh, you know, like a lot of pickles are done dry. Like the only pickles that that have recipes that make sense are the ones that are done dry and they create their own brine, because then at least it starts with some rational percentage, right? But the ones where you're just like topping up with water, it's an absurdity. And it's like, look, if you're writing a recipe for brining chicken and you're only gonna brine the chicken for two hours, then sure, focus on the concentration of the brine, right? Uh, but if you're gonna do well, what we refer to as equalization, right?
+
+[1:14:51] Where you're going to you know pretty much equalize the salt content throughout the entire batch, then but it's the salt on the whole weight chomps. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right, Peter. It's completely irritating. And and so widespread.
+
+[1:15:03] So widespread. Try finding a kimchi recipe that gives you the weight of salt by like overall weight. It's very hard. Well, yeah, but that that's the other problem. So, like, if you have recipes that are written by people that have done something their whole lives, they're like, you do it till it tastes right, but that's so unhelpful to someone who's never done it, you know?
+
+[1:15:19] Yes. Yeah, that's my mom. I mean, that's what she says, and then I'm like, ah, and so yeah, I actually have my kimchi recipe, and it's it's all by percentage weight. Yeah. Oh, nice.
+
+[1:15:28] Well, maybe well, maybe uh give give it to us and we'll put do you or like what what do you what seafood e products do you put into it? Uh I use um seyu chuk, which is the the salted shrimp. Um, and then sometimes, you know, oysters or muscles. But I my standard is sewage because I always have it. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:15:46] Yeah, salt by percentage. Do you think people are resistant to cooking by percentage? See, like, whenever like when I'm writing all my recipes that I have in my in my you know on my computer here, it's always just it's always just percentage. So I just write per salt as a percentage, always. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:16:01] Like, always. Um, but I think people don't want to calculate. I guess people don't change recipes, so they don't need to switch percentages up and down. What do they do? Like, like remove cabbage until it weighs exactly a kilo before they make their stuff when they're doing a recipe.
+
+[1:16:16] It doesn't make sense, right? You know, you don't buy cabbage, you you pay for cabbage by the kilo, but you buy cabbage by the cabbage. So you make the amount that is in the cabbage that you have purchased, no. Yeah, I assume people just do a lot of rounding. But it's not that hard.
+
+[1:16:37] I mean, everyone has a smart well, not everyone. If you if you are reading a recipe on the internet, you probably have a smartphone. And it does doesn't take that much time to multiply something by a percentage number. It takes almost no time. Truth.
+
+[1:16:55] What's this quest thing? All right, all right. Uh Nastasia. So Nastasia spends most of I spend most of my days at a desk where I am right now. It's covered in electronics because I'm prototyping.
+
+[1:17:08] This by my whenever my wife comes home, she's like, Have you cleaned up the electronics yet? I'm like, I'm not done with them. So it's just like I'm in piles of piles and piles of of uh electronics and 3D printing gear. But what Nastasia does is she deals with different teams of Amazon people. Some are bots, some are not, and she has to determine who's a bot and and who's not.
+
+[1:17:32] But she was given, she was given a task uh a week, a week, a week and a half ago. And this is relating to Nastasia and I are still trying to deal with the fact that Amazon will not sell Searsolves. And we're we're close people. I wouldn't say close in time, but we're close in finding out what the solution's gonna be. But you want to talk about what happened there, Seth?
+
+[1:17:51] Just quickly, they they were like, you have another account underneath your well, it's not your business name, but there is there. We're trying to set up another selling account that's not putting it. Yeah, you can't open this new account because there's another account that might be associated with this account, but we can't give you any other information other than this email, which is not your email. But if you look hard, you'll be able to find out like what who's behind this account. And then we're gonna send your business partner, Dave, a card in the mail with a special code on it.
+
+[1:18:25] And if he gives you that code, then it'll unlock this thing so that you can figure out who's behind this other account. Because we can't tell you, but we're sure that maybe you'll be able to find out. And by the way, this postcard is like novelty check size. It's like huge, and all it contains is like five, five digits of information, but it's like a novelty check that they send you in the mail. So uh, and so Nastasia, I'll be I'll be you, you be the you be the lady.
+
+[1:18:51] Wait, so let me get this, let me get this straight. You know what's wrong. Yes. And like looking, like you could tell exactly what it is that I need to do to rectify this. Yeah, but you won't tell me.
+
+[1:18:59] Right. Because you want me to go on a quest. Exactly. And when you find out, you call me and you tell me, and I'll let you know if it's true or not. Whether you have fulfilled the quest.
+
+[1:19:20] So this is like some sort of ready player one garbage, like where you know, Nastasia had to go buy an Atari 2600, and she had to get like the adventure cartridge, which I used to play as a kid. And yeah, she had to go into all the invisible rooms and find the magic chalice and not get eaten by the dragon. And still on the vision, yeah. Well, she would go to the lady, she'd be like, Is it this? Do I get the magic card?
+
+[1:19:47] She's like, Oh no. You know what I mean? At the end, there's gonna be some sort of magnificent moral lesson for you. And you'll be improved as a person, and you'll have a functional business. That was so in your in your mind, Nastasia.
+
+[1:20:01] In your mind, like, who is playing the Knight's Templar and when you have to choose which cup to drink out of? And is the Nazi beat you there and drink ahead of time or not? I don't know. I don't know. You gotta choose a person now.
+
+[1:20:16] Harold McGee guarding Harold McGee. Harold McGee is guarding the cups. And we're like, Harold, it's been you the whole time. Is he dressed as Zoltar at that time? Yes, yes.
+
+[1:20:26] Oh god, guys, in the Dave Arnold Bingo uh reference to Indiana Jones is definitely one of the squares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although it gets less, it gets it's more and more like I know more and more people I've spoken to whose childhood lives were ruined by one or more of those movies. You know what I mean? So the person that we had on um the on the show, one of the people, we had three people, one of the people we had on the show last week, uh told me that the Temple of Doom, like almost single-handedly ruined huge chunks of his childhood experience.
+
+[1:21:05] When did it come out? Like 1980 two or 83 or something like that. So he was he's my age, so he was like 11 or something. And he was like, Yeah, it was just like never ending garbage. Like those movies are among the like if you watch them now, cringe worthy kind of situations, right?
+
+[1:21:20] I mean, it's like are any of them I don't know. What do what are your thoughts, Peter? Well, I I have I have only happy feelings. Yeah, yeah. Uh all right.
+
+[1:21:32] So that's the quest. And so you stay tuned next week for uh any kind of updates we have in the quest. We if it goes much longer, we're going to try to find some sort of world famous Dungeons and Dragons expert to come on and because Nastasia could like I'm gonna be the I'm gonna be the Nastasi again. Nastasi's gonna be the the person she was talking to. Hey, are what what am I what am I what am I hearing?
+
+[1:21:55] Are are you are you rolling a 20-sided die? Because like she was choosing our health, right? Nastasia, like she's rolling the die and choosing how many health points we would have. And like, you know, so every time I hang up the phone with Nastasi at the end of the day now, I'm like, don't let the orcs get you. Because she's in some sort of like weird dungeons and dragons kind of a situation.
+
+[1:22:16] But you know, I who wait, oh, before we go, who's the who's the Nazi who who chooses poorly? Who that that you know, Harold gets to say he chose to be. Oh, God, I don't know. I don't know. That would be coming personal.
+
+[1:22:28] No, I don't know. All right. All right. Well, we'll let you know. We'll let you know whether we saw the crest.
+
+[1:22:29] And uh, Peter, congrats on the on the first uh season of your show. We're looking forward to the second one. It's good to be on. Come on, uh, you know, you're always welcome here at the at the cooking issues. We love having you.
+
+[1:22:44] Thanks so much. Yeah, all right. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:22:56] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:23:14] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:23:35] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. It's a better egg made from plants. Bring more customers in your doors with just egg. Start with their free sample at J U.st slash H R N. This week on Meet and Three, we rethink Surplus by exploring how innovators are promoting sharing mindsets and responding to excess in creative ways.
+
+[0:56] The whole life cycle of food would be the third largest greenhouse gas emitter behind China and the United States if it were a country. You know, in the age of COVID where a lot of those institutional processors did grind to a halt, and a lot of farms had to dump milk in Pennsylvania, even while supermarket cases were bare, the organic market stayed strong. They source all these ingredients. They do all of this work, and then they just boil it for a few minutes and then they throw it away. Tune in to Meet and Three, available wherever you get your podcasts.
+
+[1:48] Uh I'm here in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. We got Nastasia in Connecticut. How are you doing, Nastasia? Great. You know what I don't know I don't introduce you.
+
+[1:58] Nastasia, the hammer! Lopez. I used to introduce you, like I think better, you know? Yes. But then you squashed my hammer abilities.
+
+[2:05] So the ones that were squashed, no one's ever squashy or anything abilities. Man, geez Louise. We got uh we're Connecticut heavy today. We got uh John uh in uh in Connecticut. How you doing?
+
+[2:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. And uh Matt in his uh up there in Rhode Island. So we're full on Swamp Yankee right now. Yeah. But again, unless you're unless you're doing a a pre-spring 55 gallon drum tire fire with a handle of uh Jack Morgan along one of our many rivers along the coast here, you're not a really a true swamp yankee.
+
+[2:43] You know what I'm saying? Right, yeah. Uh I've I witnessed that person. They are something. They are something.
+
+[2:51] Uh okay. Uh oh, before I start, any guys didn't do anything, anything good food or not food related in the past week? Anything? Uh no. Tried to do like a braised lamb pasta dish that didn't work out the way I wanted to.
+
+[3:09] But what didn't work? What was a so in other words? Had you braised the lamb and you were using it as the leftover, or did you braze the lamb specifically for doing this? And were you doing some sort of like what was specifically for doing this? I don't know.
+
+[3:21] I wanted to like take the idea of a roasted leg of lamb and kind of like make it braise. So I did uh a lot of garlic, anchovies, uh de-glies with some white wine, then some vegetable stock, through lamb shanks in there and you know, raise them until they were done. Took them out, reduced it a little bit, uh thickened up the sauce, added more garlic and anchovies and white wine, parsley and ridiculous. I don't know, it's just like just it was just missing something. Did the Rodicchio make it uh bitter or was it decent?
+
+[3:53] Do you have the good stuff? It was the good stuff, it wasn't overly better. It was kind of bitter I was looking for. Yeah, I mean, uh Nastasi, you remember the French Culinary Institute when they had like the Ridicchio Consortio come in and they had all of the like really super fancy stuff that they brought in? I was like, oh, this is pretty good.
+
+[4:12] Because like I'm you know, I had been used to the the garbage stuff that you get starting in the 80s at some point, we were like in the US on the East Coast, right? We were like lettuce was iceberg, right? And then all of a sudden people were like, oh, if you were gonna be fancy, you got romaine, and then all of a sudden in the 80s, they brought out ridiculous, and they were always the tiny, they've been around forever, little like purple, like they look like mini cabbages, and they were just bitter and kind of useless and expensive. You remember these? Anyone remember what I'm talking about?
+
+[4:45] Not really. No. So like Rodicchio was like a thing that everybody wanted because it sounded fancy and looked fancy, right? But it just wasn't very good. So I've never really liked it.
+
+[4:57] But do you remember when the consortium came and brought all the super fancy stuff, Sus? Yeah. That's that stuff was good. And good, like, you know, lightly, lightly sauteed, lightly cooked down. Um, I can't believe none of you remember the garbage Rodicchio.
+
+[5:09] I've hated it my whole life as a thing, just because I was exposed as a child to garbage versions of it. Anyway, uh, it is good. So so what was it missing? You had it sounded like you had a lot of stuff. You had salty stuff, you had umami stuff.
+
+[5:22] Did the anchovy. How much anchovy did you add? Did the anchovy take it in a in a d weird direction that you didn't want or what? No, not at all. Like, I don't know.
+
+[5:29] It's just it just was just like missing a backbone of flavor. I don't know. Maybe I could have reduced the bracing liquid some more so it was more concentrated. I was just, I don't know, like lacking a punch. No tomato in there.
+
+[5:41] No tomato in there. Maybe maybe like a little paint a little paste. A little paste up in that piece. There was a little paste in the veg stock. But yeah, still not enough.
+
+[5:53] So back to the drawing boards. Alright. Okay. I've been experimenting. So next week, by the way, and get your get your questions in now.
+
+[6:02] This is your one shot. I'm giving you a full week. Well, not really, because you know, this is probably gonna when is this gonna go up, Matt? Like Friday? Hey, hey, it's almost never been Friday.
+
+[6:13] It'll probably be to it might be tomorrow morning. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. Okay.
+
+[6:20] So if you hear this before next week, uh I uh we've gotten a bunch of questions in about the uh ANOVA uh combi oven, right? Their home combi oven, which is I think like six hundred dollars, and you can have like all of the it does the sous vide, it does everything, the steam and all this. So people have asked me a lot of questions about it, and I've never been able to answer those questions because I never used one, but I have one I'm testing now, and we have uh Scott Hymanegger is gonna be on from ANOVA uh next week. He's going to be our guest, and we're gonna talk about the oven. So if you have any questions you want to answer about it, uh preferably send them to me early, early, because then John can get them to me and I can maybe do some testing.
+
+[7:08] Because uh, to be honest, I see these questions usually a day before the uh the, you know, like actually the morning of the show. And so, you know, if there's something that you like want me that's gonna that is you know interesting enough to test actually test, let me know earlier, right, John? Yes. Yeah. Um here's something food related.
+
+[7:31] Did you hear that Mr. Potato Head is dropping the Mr. What is he now? Well, it's not gender inclusive. Is his wife okay with this?
+
+[7:41] No, so she is also dropping the misses. So, okay, so hold on a second. So now there's just potato heads? Yeah. And Hasbro, people are upset that Hasbro sounds like and wants the people want them to drop the bro.
+
+[7:56] Are you making this? Is that part real? Actual AP or AP AP.union.net. No, no, AP News.com. This is all so it's not Hasbro anymore, it's more a hashtag.
+
+[8:10] So is the brand of toy now called anthropomorphized potato? Yeah. Well, hold on. Has bro. Like that?
+
+[8:21] Yeah. Or is it more like hasbro? Yeah. Like that. Yo, has bro?
+
+[8:28] Do you? I has bro, bro. Like that? That's what they're worried about. And then the American girl doll is now selling a boy doll.
+
+[8:34] I don't know how they're gonna. Oh, first of all, was Hasbro formed by the Has brothers back in the past. See, I don't I don't know. I don't know. I I don't know.
+
+[8:45] I'm just scanning this. The has and has not brothers. See, people, this is what actually is going through Nastasia's mind. She's like, I'm not listening to anything about an oven. I'm gonna read the AP newswire coming into my mind.
+
+[8:56] That's why I wanted to bring in some food stuff. So I brought in some potatoes. That's not actually food stuff. Although I will say the Mr. Potato the Mr.
+
+[9:04] Potato Head uh is a very big cocktail concept. The Mr. Potato Head concept of cocktails. It's a it's uh you know a plug-in. The Mr.
+
+[9:14] Potato Head was uh, I mean, everyone's done it forever, but I think it was Phil Ward who coined it as a method of cocktail invention where basically, you know, you you take the structure and you just pop stuff off and on to change and to make up different cocktails. So, you know, a margarita minus lime plus you know, Yuzu, you know, Mr. Potato Head. That was the the theory of cocktail uh construction. Can you drink out of a Mr.
+
+[9:37] Potato Head? No. They're full of holes. Yeah. Well no, not even over.
+
+[9:44] Not even with the right parts inside the bottom. Nastasia, I don't know if that you I don't know if you know this, but you work with someone who's not only a trained MFA sculptor, but also a product designer with 3D printing capability. I can I can seal up. We we could take a stock potato head. Yeah.
+
+[10:05] Well, so so what I would recommend, what I recommend, all right, is you actually leave the I always reminded, because remember, you open their butt and the and and they're they they crap their body out like a sea cucumber, and then you like put all their stuff on their face, right? So if I was gonna do this, what I would do is I would make it. Why are you giving away the secret when we're gonna do it? Because if anyone else does, so listen, what I would do, what we will do is I will construct a uh a potato head, like almost like a capri-sun pouch that sits inside of the potato head body. So then you don't have to worry about washing it, and you can still, as you're drinking, like reconfigure it.
+
+[10:48] So it comes, it sits, you reconfigure it, and when you put the straw, we'll drill a hole through its forehead, and you can uh and you can uh drink it through that way. You can garnish with an apple head. Oh my god. Potato on apple on and and I want you to know we were way ahead of the curve because we've never gendered our apple heads. No.
+
+[11:06] Yeah, yeah. Way ahead of the curve. Way ahead of the curve. Oh. They all just wore hats.
+
+[11:13] Which is gendered, yeah. Yeah, it depends on the hat. No. I mean, like, my my Easter bonnet, when I wear that, I'm making a gender statement. Were you able to come up with your last full bar concept in 12 minutes?
+
+[11:27] Because this was pretty good. You guys remember uh my original, so like you know, look, I have many bar concepts that I'll never do. French fries, tater tots, as the and we'll call it like can it we'll we'll play only cannibal corpse because we're eating potato heads, but the bar is a potato heads. So it's I don't actually listen to cannibal corpse, but uh I mean the idea that like you know if the the waiters are the servers are dressed as potatoes, maybe. That's too much, maybe.
+
+[11:58] Maybe maybe people are dressed like people, right? And then like, but what if we like what if we have them in like completely like genderless Slenderman outfits so that everyone looks like they could be plug and play? You know what I'm saying? Like everyone looks blank. You want everything to be blank except for the potato heads.
+
+[12:19] Because you want them to shine, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Configured. That's taking it a little too far, though. I don't think people are gonna want to wear.
+
+[12:26] And when Dax went as that I first of all, I don't even know where that Slenderman thing comes from, but Dax went as it once as Halloween, and it's super creepy looking. What is it in the reality? What is the Slender Man? What is that like a kid uh teens novel series? I don't think I think it is.
+
+[12:42] Dax Dax went at it one year, and he was he's it was fundamentally a body sock that went over his whole body, and then he put like an outfit over the body sock, and he just looked intensely creepy. Like faceless humanoids are creepy. You know what I'm saying? Like super creepy. The internet says it is a fictional supernatural character that originated as a creepy pasta internet meme created by something awful for them user Eric Newston in 2009.
+
+[13:14] There we go. Okay. All right, all right. Uh you know, we'll put that in a time capsule. Yep.
+
+[13:20] What did Chat say? Oh, I was gonna chat's like talking about you know actual food stuff if you want to. Like, what? Yeah, give me give me give me some giveaway. They can't stand this crap.
+
+[13:28] Yeah, give me the food. Well, they would also like you to know that apparently this whole Hasbro thing just stems from them deciding to put, I think, both Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head in the same box. But anyway, whatever.
+
+[13:39] I believe that. Alpha. I believe that. Although they sell eight million. Let me tell you something about people.
+
+[13:44] People out there, people. Uh if you've never made a product before, when when you're only making a couple of products, you don't want to have a bunch of different like SKUs, SKUs, right? Because you have to pay for all these different boxes. But it's actually the opposite if you are a big company, because then you you flood the zone to sell more. So it's like the Doritos in food, right?
+
+[14:06] Let's go back to food for a minute, right? In food, you're like, why is it that they make 8,000 Doritos? Why is it that they make 950,000 different varieties of layers potato chips or Oreos? And the answer is when you go into a store and you see the same Oreo that you've seen your whole life, right? You may or may not pick it up if you're not a regular Oreo buyer.
+
+[14:29] You probably like Oreos, but you're probably not going to pick it up. But if you go in and it's like double birthday, St. Patrick's, blah, blah, blah, Oreos, and it's a different package, you're like, oh, there's different Oreos, and it makes you buy more Oreos in general, regardless of whether you buy the special ones. So in over the past 20, 15 years, really the past eight years, but like it's been starting maybe 20 years now in the making, companies have just increased the number of SKUs they put in a particular lineup. Because adding things to a lineup makes the entire lineup sell more, even if the really little niche ones don't sell that many, right?
+
+[15:12] So they're not actually competing with each other, they're increasing their entire brand. And so the idea that you're trying to save money on a box when really you're just flooding the zone with potato head stuff. The question is really, it it might not be an issue if if if you're only going to one place for your potato head style things, right? Then it doesn't really matter, right? But it's kind of like Pac-Man, Miss Pac-Man, if they they have a rivalry, someone might get both.
+
+[15:38] So why would no one's gonna buy two potato heads if there's no difference between the Mr. Potato Head and the Mrs. Potato Head? But it it if if there's two, maybe they get two, maybe they compete. Maybe you get one for one kid and one for the other.
+
+[15:49] So I don't know. I don't think they're actually saving money. I think it's a different thing. Ken confirm that this works on the food side because uh, we are occasional Oreo buyers, and Kate saw that there was a Lady Gaga package of Oreos, and she's like, wonder what's up with that. Bottom, they're real bad, they're just very colorful.
+
+[16:07] Uh threw them away, and then why are they bad? They just don't taste as good. How do they not taste as good? Oh man, I don't remember anymore. I'm not one, and I was like, this is not enjoyable.
+
+[16:20] And then you're left being like, I still would like an Oreo, so the next time you're at a grocery store, you're more likely to pick up the actual Oreos that taste normal. All right, listen, I want some Lady Gaga Oreos. I want to know what's not pleasurable about the Lady Gaga Oreos because I like almost everything Lady Gaga does. Right? Yeah.
+
+[16:41] I mean, by the way, they ever catch the person that shot her dog walker. Don't know. That was some random stuff. That was weird. All right.
+
+[16:48] Chat question about vegetables. Okay. Alpha Romeo and Juliet asked, I've learned that my partner prefers crunchy vegetables to softer ones. What would your go-to crunchy vegetable recipe be? Yes, I've roasted everything and love to fry, but would love any ideas and inspiration that the cooking issues team has.
+
+[17:06] Thanks as always. And then there's two follow-ups. Do you want to hear the follow-ups first? I don't know. You tell me.
+
+[17:12] Holden Trout responds, and this is this is very cooking issues. Holden Trout responds. Your question isn't directed at me, but you can soak the veggies in a calcium hydroxide solution. Honestly, I think almost any calcium bath would help. You can also use something like Nova Shape to reinforce the pectin calcium cross-linking with certain vegetables.
+
+[17:31] This can also be a good idea. Listen, listen, listen. Listen, calcium hydroxide is interesting. Uh, and I've written about this on the blog, by the way. So uh calcium hydrox calcium cross-links and makes things stay firmer longer.
+
+[17:48] And but basic things and basic things make things stay greener, but make them uh break down actually faster, make the pectin break down faster. So calcium hydroxide is interesting in that it it kind of has a it kind of pushes both ways. If you want stuff to get soft, make it basic. If you want stuff to stay crunchy, make it acidic. So acid plus calcium, even though the calcium is not going to be uh which way is the solubility go?
+
+[18:16] In other words, some calcium, like calcium chloride plus acid is going to keep stuff real crunchy. But the real problem is that as any uh real French person will tell you, uh, and John, as our as our closest to French here, you know, Belgique like French lover, right? Is that the French don't understand our obsession with vegetables that are undercooked? Am I correct about this, John? Yeah.
+
+[18:42] So and the old school French cooks at uh at the FCI were always like, no, no, mais non, mais non. Because like people would like, you know, undercook their veg, because here everyone was like, you want your vegetables to be el dente. You're like, no, you you want them to be cooked, but not mush, right? And the whole idea of being like to cook them the French way is to is to do that. Now, that said, it is my firm belief that you should eat the vegetables however in the hell you like them.
+
+[19:11] But what you haven't specified is how crunchy your partner likes these vegetables. Does your partner actually like raw vegetables? Is what I'm asking, right? So it's like certain vegetables, you know, your partner might want the texture of raw, but without the raw taste. And that can be done with uh like a relatively high temperature blanch that doesn't boil it or cook the pectin down, right?
+
+[19:34] So like they might hate, for instance, if they're like me, they don't like the raw starch taste in a pea shoot, right? But if you if you lightly blanch a pea shoot and shock it, it's still crunchy, but it loses that raw taste, all of a sudden I like it, right? Um if your partner actually wants uh raw raw tasting vegetables, but you're sick of your classic crude, I say, why not try a bandia cauda? Because banyacautas are delicious. So you get yourself some anchovies, you get yourself some butter, some garlic, some oil, you make it into a little into a little hot base, you make it it's a bath, it's warm, you dip your stuff into it.
+
+[20:12] That stuff's delicious. And then you can also have some bread with it and dip it, and it's it's delicious. You guys like banyacata? Anyone here? Anyone here a bandicata fan?
+
+[20:18] Yep. Yep, good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. However, and I think I don't know whether I've told this story.
+
+[20:23] Have I told this the story with Miley about bandy cauta on the air? Probably no. No? Not recently. Not recently.
+
+[20:31] Not in the last hundred episodes. So, you know, all right. So uh I've said this many times. Like, I became friends with Wiley Dufrain, uh the chef and donut entrepreneur, because um, I say entrepreneur like that because when any any one time anyone says they're an entrepreneur, my assumption is they're one step away from being homeless. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[20:54] It's like entrepreneur is not like something that like if you have a business, you have a business. If you're an entrepreneur, it means you can't tell me what your business is. So either you're doing something illegal, you're in porn, or you're or you're you don't really have a business. Are you with me on this, Nastasia? Or you don't you don't you have a different feeling about entrepreneurship?
+
+[21:13] No, I don't think see it like you know. Yeah. So you think entrepreneur is a valid thing to say that somebody is. If you say somebody is like a food entrepreneur, that makes more sense. But if they just say, entrepr, what do you do?
+
+[21:27] I'm an entrepreneur. Like, what does that mean? You you you're on the street selling singles? Like, what what what like what is like what is it like what what is entrepreneur? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:37] Like, why aren't you being more specific? Yeah, you're not with me. But who says that? Like, I don't I haven't run into anyone who just calls themselves an entrepreneur. It's a very like New York City streets thing.
+
+[21:49] You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, what do you do? I don't know, what do you do? Like that. You know what I mean?
+
+[21:55] Hey, I entrepreneur. He's either with the mob, something. You know what I mean? It's like it's the same thing as saying, what do you do? Import export.
+
+[22:03] That means you're a criminal, right? Anyone who says they're import export and they don't tell you what they're importing and exporting, criminal, right? Uh-huh. Chef Joanna would like to throw multi-level marketing into the entrepreneur mix. Oh, yeah, right, which is criminal, right?
+
+[22:17] So they're basically they're doing something, they're doing something, well, should be criminal. Ponzi scheme, some sort of Ponzi scheme. This happened with Booker and Dax. Dax got into some sort of pyramid scheme. And thankfully for him, he was at the base of the pyramid, so he didn't get messed up with it.
+
+[22:34] And Booker was like, It's a scam, it's a scam. And Dax was like, it's not a scam. It's one of these things where like everybody gets five bucks for getting somebody to get into the system, you know what I'm saying? And uh, and I was like, No, you know, your brother, you know, usually he yells at you for the wrong reason, but you know, Booker's 100% correct. This is a pyramid scheme.
+
+[22:50] He's like, but I made my money. I was like, yeah, but the math proves that within a couple of cycles, there's more more people, you need more people than there are people on the earth to pay everyone five dollars. And he's like, Man, I got my money. See, so he didn't learn the lesson. Some saying early is what he learned.
+
+[23:08] Yeah. I don't want my I don't want Dax. I mean, like, I don't want Dax to because here's the problem with pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes. And by the way, we what do we get accused of, Nastasia? The Bernie Madoff of food.
+
+[23:19] You were called the Bernie Madoff of food. Yeah, because we were because we were we were two and a half months late delivering Sears alls to people with the first Kickstarter. Two and a half months late on a product that we made from scratch that no one has ever made before. Two and a half months late. You're the Bernie madoff of food.
+
+[23:41] So I was like, the trick is is that when people start their pyramids and Ponzies and all these schemes, is that no one wants to get out when the getting's good. You know what I mean? That's why they end up getting hosed. And first of all, it's uh unethical. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about.
+
+[23:53] What were you talking about? There was a food question. Roasting vegetables. Well, I mean, crisp, crisp vegetables. All right.
+
+[24:00] All right. So anyway, banyacota. So Wiley was uh, that's what it was, entrepreneur. Wiley was uh had WD50 at the time, and he wanted to go out with Miley, my sister-in-law, who runs the Food Network magazine and uh started it, runs it. And um, so they were having their first date, and they came over to my house, and she had a really nice dress on because they were coming over to our house just for a drink, and then they were gonna go out.
+
+[24:29] And uh I was like, I made a banya cowda. And so I had like this like I had like these little cast iron, like awesome little cast iron thingamajigs, and it was full of the hot, hot anchovy grease, and uh and a and a plate of like uh uh crude's and I fumbled and dumped the entire thing on her dress. I I dumped an entire container of like hot stinking grease on her dress. Yeah. They have two kids now.
+
+[25:06] Yeah, blessing blessings upon you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which brings me up. Anytime when you're at somebody's house, which was sorry, maybe someday someone can come over to your house again. Let's just assume that within a couple of months people are allowed to come to your house again wherever you are.
+
+[25:22] Something that in uh in in my family, my stepfather's side of my family that they always did that I loved, and this is uh related to you know, spilling banya cauta all over over Miley, was uh I've never made it again since then, by the way. So I haven't made banyacouta because I got it's a it's it's like uh uh you know traumatic for me. So like I haven't made it in probably 15 years or something like this. Uh so anyway, so you know, my my stepfather's father, uh you know, the butcher, I've talked about him on the show. We we'd sit at this long table on a Sunday at the house, and at the end of the meal, he would always pour some red wine onto the tablecloth and kill it.
+
+[26:08] So that like no one had to worry, and everyone knew it was gonna happen, so no one had to worry about whether or not they were gonna mess up the tablecloth. So they just took that off the table. I always thought it was a nice gesture. It went through a lot of tablecloths, so I only do it if somebody spills something on the tablecloth. I will immediately spill something on my own tablecloth just so that they don't feel bad.
+
+[26:28] But I always thought it was a nice gesture. Um else have that uh have that custom in their house? That's a nice thing to do. Yeah, it's a nice thing to do, but like if you don't have a washing machine, like it's just oof, you know. Well, it's more it's more for like later in your life, like if you're in that situation where you know you're the it's your house, you have the tablecloth, and you just want to make everyone feel welcome.
+
+[26:51] You know what I'm saying? Um but I tell you what, it really takes a it takes a load off your mind, especially if you have people who aren't like your normal people there and they're all nervous about like you know you getting bent at them. Anyway, uh any more chat food questions there, Matt. Uh no, well, other than Chef Johan chimed in to suggest spiral the use of spiralized veg instead of chopped, says. But nothing goes, nothing goes, but as soon as you cook a spiralized veg, the thing's cooked.
+
+[27:25] Or you're saying like leave it raw so that you can eat unpalatable veg. Can I make a plea for cooking kale, please? Can I please just make a plea for cooking kale? The kale was not in v there look like all of these kind of like greens and brassica stuff are all extremely closely related, different cultivars of relatively similar stuff, right? There have been for generations, people have raised greens that taste good before they are cooked.
+
+[27:53] Why don't if you're gonna eat one raw, why don't you eat one of those raw? If I never have raw kale again, I'm fine. Because you know what I really like? Raw cut up as crunchy stuff? Cabbage!
+
+[28:05] Cabbage is delicious, raw and cooked. Almost any kind of cabbage I would rather have than almost any kind of raw kale. Now, cooked kale is delicious. But dude, think of all the vitamins and nutrients in the raw kale. So healthy for you.
+
+[28:18] Dave doesn't give a crap. I know, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, man.
+
+[28:23] I mean, look, here's another one for you. Uh, like uh spinach, right? Like, I know that a lot of you eat raw spinach. No, no, no, no. In California, there is some spinach that tastes really good raw, like amazing.
+
+[28:40] Miniaturized? Uh, smaller, yeah. But not miniaturized. Miniaturized. Not the tiny one that hasn't turned.
+
+[28:47] So it's it okay. Let me ask you this. Has it gone from being roughly coin shaped to being frilly yet? No. So it's still coin shaped.
+
+[28:57] Yeah. Right. So that I mean, obviously, you can't eat the raw spinach once it turns into a filth machine and it's all frilly and long, right? Yeah. But you're saying you're saying they have these varieties, and you're saying that this this spinach that you got in California, you would choose as a raw green over other raw greens.
+
+[29:19] Yes. I would buy it every like pat like so much of it every week and give it to people too, because they were like, this is amazing. Raw. Well, I would love to try that. In the same way that, like, uh, you know, your at the time boyfriend, when you and I were working, uh, you and I were slaving away, and uh, you know, inside uh where's we're Nastasi and I got our respective others a free trip to Japan.
+
+[29:49] That's not true, Dave. You gave we got three tickets, me, you, and you gave yours to Jen. Mark paid his. Yeah, and I paid taxes, but they got to stay in the best hotel in Tokyo for free. Okay, okay.
+
+[30:00] And they got all the food in the hotel for free. That's a free trip. The trip, you know how much more the trip was than the airline tickets? Yeah. And and remember, I got we got more than that number of tickets because I flew coach the entire way.
+
+[30:17] But like anyway, that's not the point. Hey, you show up in Tokyo and you get to stay in the park hyat for free. That's free. Okay. You get that you get the use of their of their concierge, and they get you anything in the hotel, including all the restaurant stuff.
+
+[30:32] That's free. Like, literally, like taking a poo in that hotel probably costs more than the airline ticket over there. Okay. Especially when you're flying deep coach, which is what we did. Like, I was sandwiched in somebody's overhead bin as I was flying over there for the 14 hours.
+
+[30:48] Alright. So let's just put it that way. So they're getting to chill in the hotel, they're getting their spa time, and Nastasi and I are working. And he goes to what he says is the best sushi experience of his life and has as the dessert, raw eggplant. Oh yeah.
+
+[31:11] And Nastasia and I are like, what? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, raw eggplant. So apparently in Japan, they have, and and I've never been able to find it. I've never eaten it. There is some variety of eggplant that an 80, well, no, this wasn't the 80 year old guy.
+
+[31:29] This that's some that someone that's can buy it, slice it, and put it on a plate, and you're gonna eat it as your fruit course after after dinner as your dessert in a sushi restaurant and enjoy it. And he said it was like the best thing ever. And I've never had it, and I'm still jealous to this day. Like, you know, eight years later, I'm still jealous. Yeah.
+
+[31:49] You know? Aren't you jealous, Doss? I do wonder, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you know, now you have me wondering about this like magic spinach.
+
+[31:57] That's like I feel bad for anyone that's never had like like what I the best tomatoes that I've ever had that I can get almost every year. But if you're not in New York, you can't have it. So, like, you can have a good tomato, maybe, but you can't have the one that I'm telling you about. You don't even know if I'm a liar. I'm not.
+
+[32:12] It's a delicious tomato, but I mean, what are you gonna know? Same way with the with the eggplant. I gotta try that eggplant. Anyway. So I would like to try your spinach, but in general, I think spinach should be cooked because what I hate is the squeak.
+
+[32:25] Mm-hmm. Hate the squeak. What do you guys think of the squeak? Do you not like cheese curds? I love I love a squeaky cheese curd.
+
+[32:36] Okay. Right? I don't want a squeaky green, because it's first of all, a squeaky cheese curd, there's something nice about it, right? It's like a green, is like it's like, what am I am I chewing on neoprene? What is this?
+
+[32:49] You know what I mean? It's just unpleasant. I just don't like it. And yeah, I don't like it. I love cooked spinach though.
+
+[32:56] Uh how the hell do we get onto that? All right. Matt, you're gonna let me know if there's anything else we need to address in the chat room, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chef Jonah and I confirms that spinach film on teeth is the worst.
+
+[33:06] But yeah, you're you're good. We're good here. This episode is brought to you by just A. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States.
+
+[33:25] Bring more plant-based customers in your doors with easy to use just egg. You can start with a free sample. Just head to ju.st slash H R N. Made from plants. Just egg is a better egg for you and for the planet.
+
+[33:41] It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable. Just egg uses less water and generate fewer carbon emissions. Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate food service establishment, you can get a sample for free.
+
+[33:58] Head to ju.st forward slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble, ready for omelets, fritatas, stir-fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre baked folded version that's idea for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads. Chef Jose Andreas calls Just Egg mind blown.
+
+[34:24] And Bonapet says it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.st forward slash H R N. You know what else I hate though? How about this?
+
+[34:41] When you're cooking spinach, this used to happen so many times. At the French Culinary. It and aside from uh you know people not salting before they send it out, ugh, hate that, is when they would run out of time and they wouldn't squeeze the spinach before they before they uh f did the first the final dressing and put it on the plate, and it gets that disgusting black liquid flowing out of it. You know what I'm talking about? Yep.
+
+[35:26] Well, John, thanks. Thanks someone for piping up. So you you just you you cook spinach and you throw it in the colander, you shock it, you drain it, you pull it out, but you don't squeeze it, then you think you can just put your your your whatever salt, dressing, whatever, and put it on your plate, and you're good to go. If you don't squeeze the spinach, it sits there and bleeds gross filth. Anyway, um I hate that gross filth.
+
+[35:49] What's your favorite way to have cooked spinach? Just put it in the pan with nothing else and cook it down. So you don't like cream in it? Nope. No, assuming salt and pepper.
+
+[36:02] Salted after, yeah. No spices, no alliums at all. Nope. Wow. Okay, plain Jane.
+
+[36:10] Uh, what about you, John? What's your favorite spinach? Uh I like cream spinach a lot, but also plain with like garlic and jellyflakes. Garlic and jellies. Matt, Matt.
+
+[36:19] Uh I would I would get on John's train there. What about you guys? Uh I always add like not to make it sweet. So, like my standard veg cook in general, by the way, uh, not really with spinach, although I do it with spinach, is uh salt, salt, pepper, salt, pepper, sugar, a little bit of sugar. Not to not to make it sweet, but just to uh glaze it a little bit.
+
+[36:45] So, like typically when I'm doing veg, like carrots, like uh Brussels, I blanch beforehand. Like so, like so big big veg I blanch beforehand and then pan it. Um small veg I don't, but yeah, it's always it's always salt, pepper, a little bit of sugar, sometimes spice, and then uh you know, depending on whether I'm doing alum, but for plain veg, it's just salt, pepper, and sugar. I think a little bit of sugar always always helps, and then a little bit of moisture, and then you cover it with uh a lid and you take it until it's almost done, lift it, let the rest of the stuff evaporate off open so it doesn't oversteam, and then jiggle it until it gets the nice coating on the outside. That's my standard pan veg.
+
+[37:25] Anyways. And with spinach, I like to add a little cream to it because I like a little creamy spinach. So if I'm gonna do spinach and I'm gonna make it right away, I'll do it maybe the way Nastasia said, because if I'm gonna add an extra liquid to it to cream, I don't have to do it. But if I'm gonna do it for a bigger setting, or if I'm gonna do it in advance, I will uh boil it in salted water, shock it, squeeze it so it stays green, uh, and then I can add the um flavoring to it. Did I answer the question on spinach and then non-spinach veg?
+
+[37:56] Yes. Okay. Uh Mark wrote in via email a couple of salt questions. Firstly, does salting after cooking diffuse through meat the same way as raw meat? Um, well, when you salt raw meat, right, uh while the meat is cooking, there's a faster transport in and out, right?
+
+[38:15] So the the the so I would say first of all, also the meat is a higher has a higher moisture content when it's raw. Uh and it's also kind of more open, it hasn't contracted down. So I would say salting meat after it cooks is gonna cause less penetration, um, much less penetration than salting it uh beforehand. But I mean, again, like salting beforehand, it's it's it's complicated. It's it's much more complicated than that.
+
+[38:43] Uh second, does salting vegetables do anything similar? Uh I'm thinking salt diffusing through the veg also having an impact on the proteins instead of veg. A lot salting vegetables beforehand depends a lot on the vegetables. So if you want salt to have a big effect on some vegetables, you need to cut them. A lot of vegetables have or bruise them.
+
+[39:02] A lot of vegetables have very thick kind of coatings on them, like waxy cuticles on them. And so if you salt them without cutting them, really not a lot happens, right? Uh, at least not right away. Uh so you need to wait a while for that to happen. Whereas if you cut them, then uh you know the salt can get in there and uh and really kind of affect it quickly.
+
+[39:24] And the, you know, one of the biggest things that salting does is uh osmotically dehydrate things. So you can think about eggplant. So it's not really the you're not really affecting the proteins aren't that important in vegetables, right? I mean they are, but they're not, right? The what's important in vegetables is the pectin structure and also the moisture content.
+
+[39:42] So like um, and the salt that you're using there doesn't really affect the texture of the of the pectin that much at the levels that you're using. Things like we were talking before, calcium really would, or the pH, right? So adding acidity to something will affect the texture of a cooked vegetable. Um so but salt will dehydrate it. So like when you're cutting an eggplant, you cut an eggplant, you salt it, and that is going to osmotically dehydrate it and it's gonna draw out that kind of gross liquid.
+
+[40:09] Or if you're making cabbage and you're gonna do coleslaw or whatever, you slice it, you salt it, you let it rest for a couple of hours, and it gets a lot of the moisture out, and that way your coleslaw that you dress and that's fine at the table isn't gonna turn into a weepy wee-wee for the next day if you want to have the coleslaw the next day. You're a monster if you make a coleslaw today for tomorrow and you don't pre-salt your cabbage uh before you do because it's gonna turn into a watery mess. Has that happened to any of you guys ever? No. No, I don't think so.
+
+[40:40] Do you have you ever made coleslaw and served it in a day? You ever made coleslaw for tomorrow? No. No. Okay.
+
+[40:47] You guys are no help today. You can at least pretend people like it's a show. Pretend! Um active! I don't want you to lie.
+
+[40:58] I just want you to lie. I don't ever want to eat. I didn't realize. I thought, am I playing a character right now? What's my backstory?
+
+[41:07] Your backstory is you're a swamp Yankee from Rhode Island. I could do that. Yeah. Uh no, I don't want anyone to lie, but I mean, geez, Louise. You know?
+
+[41:17] It's like I'm getting nothing from you guys. It's like, it's like uh getting nothing. Throwing them off, getting nothing back. Uh Hapidural wrote in. So wait, so Hapodural, is that like getting an epidural and they're happy about it?
+
+[41:30] You think that's what that name is? That's their last name. No, the Instagram hand handle is Hapodural, like they're happy to get an epidural. Which I think most people are. I think most people, if they need an epidural, are happy to get it.
+
+[41:45] Uh that has been, you know, I've never had one, but that's been my experience with other people getting them. That they are quite happy to get them. Um so habitural writes in about uh quicksmal. Uh uh, so many years ago, like 2010 or something, uh, I did a blog post on nyxtamalization, which is the technique where going back to calcium hydroxide, where you take uh calcium hydroxide and you uh you par cook uh typically corn, and um then you let it sit for a while, and the calcium hydroxide breaks down the the skin on the on the corn, makes it a little bit softer. You then grind that into masa.
+
+[42:31] And so that's the masa thing. And if you don't have the calcium hydroxide, if you don't do the nixtimalization, then it's just cornmeal. It doesn't taste like masa, it doesn't work like masa, it won't make a tortilla the way masa does. Um anyway, so uh one of the things that I did, and uh I don't know if I was first, but you know, I'm the first person I ever saw do it, put it that way, uh doing alternate, like non-traditional uh kind of like European grain stuff with with that technique. So I was doing a lot of rye back in the day.
+
+[43:02] And uh rye tortillas, rye nixtimalized tortillas are delicious, but they're a real pain in the butt. So I tend not to do them that that often. And I also experimented with trying to do quick stum, you know, quick nixtimalization, which is where you do it in a pr in a pressure cooker and see whether you can kind of get rid of either the soaking step or uh, you know, part of the cooking step just to make it happen faster because it it soaks for a long time. But I didn't have very good results. So the question is I saw that you tried pressure cooking blue corn in the nixamol, but wondered, and the reason we did blue corn was because we had a 50-pound sack of it, right?
+
+[43:37] Uh, but wondered if you tried regular yellow dent corn. No, I didn't. Uh I the only one I tried was the one that I posted on the blog, and uh I I didn't like the idea enough to try it with the yellow. There's not that much difference really between uh the the I mean there's a difference in the color actually, you know, obviously in different varieties, different flavors, but there's I don't think there's that much, there wasn't that much of a difference between the yellow corn and the blue corn we had in terms of their textures. What I would say is that it's a lot of people only really have access to popcorn.
+
+[44:12] And popcorn is hard to nictimalize because it's real hard. And maybe pressure uh nixamalization, pressure cooking nixtimalization, if you want to try something that might work and be fun, try I would try maybe nixtimalizing popcorn in a pressure cooker because that might uh take away some of the things that make popcorn such a pain in the butt to work with uh when you're doing a nixamalization. So anyway, take that, take that one and try it or don't. Um Warren Johnson wrote in via Instagram. Uh so back at the ask he wants to know uh what was the recipe for the Shag Bark Hickory syrup that we used uh at existing conditions uh for the Macintosh Plus cocktail, which by the way, I always hated that uh name because I get it's an apple joke, but I don't really like the Macintosh as an apple.
+
+[45:00] I think it's a trash can apple. Not a Macintosh fan. Like last season, last apple season, I went out and I picked one off of a tree and I was like, eh, it's fine. It's a standard apple kind of flavor, but I would never ever, I don't even know why they named the the the computer after that. Like, would you ever, if someone's if you were on your deathbed and someone was like, call out an apple and you can have this one lice last bite of an apple before you die, would anyone on this earth choose a Macintosh?
+
+[45:29] No. No. No. Trash can. It's trash can, it's worthless.
+
+[45:35] I mean, it's better than a delicious, right? It's you know, red delicious. Red delicious is a filth machine, but um, especially the way that they are now. Anyway. Um, what was the recipe for the Shag Bar Hickory?
+
+[45:48] And any suggestions on how to approach recreating or substituting this at home. Well, I wouldn't try to recreate it. Uh, I would, or I mean substitute it, I would just recreate it. First, you gotta find yourself a shag bark hickory tree. They're one of the most easily recognized trees in the winter that you can get because uh, you know, if you just Google Shag Bark Hickory Tree and like look at the pictures of the bark and look around in your neighborhood until you see that kind of bark, then you've ID'd it, right?
+
+[46:15] It's not there are no look-alikes that are gonna mess with you. It's just that's what there is. Um, uh another thing that you might not know if you don't know where the shag bar kickeries are around you, and they're they're located. I don't know if they have them on the west coast or whether people have planted them on the west coast, but they're they're all the way through at least Ohio, um, and I think all the way through in the upper sections through Wisconsin. Uh I don't know how far south they I know they go, they probably go all the way south.
+
+[46:47] I don't know whether they go through the plains states. Anyway, so uh you can there's lots of applications now where people have uh geotagged uh trees, and so you can go and find a trees in your neighborhood on a map on your phone. Very useful uh for foragers out there. Uh so anyway, find one and then just peel the outside bark off. You're not hurting it, don't peel so much off that you're getting to the inner part.
+
+[47:12] Just take the stuff, it's gonna slough off anyway. Wash it just to get the you know, the outer, you know, you know, dust and and and whatnot and bugs and all that kind of stuff off. Wash it. Break it into small pieces, you know. You know, when I say small, oh, I don't know, like uh inch and a half long, something like this.
+
+[47:31] Uh, and then so it's still a little bit wet because you've washed it, right? So about the recipe I'm gonna give you is the one that I actually ran the test on. So you can re-jigger this however you want. But I did 378 grams of that bark, and then I put uh 1600 grams of water into it in a in a container, and I put it into my vacuum machine, and I did a vacuum cycle on it three times to kind of get the liquid to the inside of the bark and start the infusion before I heated it, right? So you can omit that, but it just won't be as good.
+
+[48:01] Uh or and you might have to let it steep longer. Uh then I added 700 grams more water, and the reason I did that was because I couldn't fit a bigger thing of water in my vacuum machine. Um and again, you can do it without the vacuum machine I have, it just not quite as good. You can you know what you should do? If you don't have a vacuum machine, put the bark in, put like a uh a grate or something so it stays under the water, and before you boil it, soak it overnight.
+
+[48:25] How about that? Uh then you bring it to a boil, you let it steep for 10 minutes, you strain it, it should be already kind of dark. Then I boiled it down to about you know, uh.6 of its former size. Technically, I did 0.615, but you just want to reduce it by like a third or so. Uh, and then I add an equal weight of sugar to it, and that's the syrup.
+
+[48:45] All right? All right. Who's typing? I hear typing. I thought it was unostasia, but I didn't call you out, thank God.
+
+[48:53] Thank God I didn't call you out. You gonna say something, Dave? You're gonna say something. I never would have heard the end of it. If I had called you out, I never would have heard the end of it.
+
+[49:00] I'm still not gonna hear the end of it because I admitted that I was gonna call you out. I've already lost. The good news is is that uh these days, small losses are the new big win. You know what I'm saying? I was your uh motto for 2021.
+
+[49:14] Yeah. Small losses, the new big win. Oh, speaking of, uh, any news on uh any news on our on our on our magic quest. No, you know what the news is. I know, but people like to hear people like to hear about uh people like to hear our Amazon news.
+
+[49:32] What was the one that we uh we hired a lawyer? Nastasi and I hired a lawyer. Uh yeah. No, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold up, hold up, hold on.
+
+[49:45] So we hired we hired a lawyer. We hired a lawyer, right? And listen, we hire Rebecca to get us out of the dumb things I say. Not to stop me from getting into the dumb things. Anyway, so like so like we hire this lawyer.
+
+[49:57] Nastasi and I are on the phone with the lawyer. And we feel like Rebecca has to try to get the record on the show because she's because as anyone that's ever listened to a recent episode of the show knows Amazon, someone didn't read the instructions for the Sears All, which is the handheld broiler that we attachment that we make for the torch, and they didn't read the instructions, and they didn't realize that when you first get it, you have to burn off the binder that's in the installation. And uh and so they're like it caught on fire, and it was maybe dangerous. So Amazon pulled our the Sears all off, and it's been not for sale for the past three months as a result. Uh and they didn't pull off the competitors.
+
+[50:38] Nastasia got the competitors pulled off because they were violating our patents. Interesting story. Separate story. Um anyway, so uh Amazon was like, yo, you need to certify it, right? Uh you need a safety certification.
+
+[50:52] And we were like, well, there is no safety certification because there is no UL certification for like broiler attachments for torches. Like literally, there isn't. So it's like I was saying, like, it's like the equivalent of Amazon going to us and being like, listen, uh, imagine if like they controlled the Mars rover, Amazon controlled the Mars rover, and they let you send the rover to Mars, right? They let you send the rover to Mars. And then they're like, you need a valid driver's license from a state in the United States to draw a valid driver's license for that rover.
+
+[51:32] And you're like, but there are no Martian driver's licenses. And they're like, yeah, we still want one, or we're not going to let you drive the rover that we've already put on Mars. So Amazon already has all of our Sears all, and they won't let us sell them unless we give them the equivalent of a Martian driver's license. So then Nastasi and I go to uh a lawyer and we say to the lawyer, this exact thing. Do you have someone at Amazon that you can talk to that isn't the robot that Amaz that that Nastasia talks to that keeps on saying that we need to get it certified to a standard that doesn't exist, and or if it's a menstrual cup, get this other certification, right?
+
+[52:12] And then and then the lawyer says, Yes, we have some sort of special, we don't have special. The lawyer says, Yes, we have uh what'd they say, Stuzz? What'd they say they have it? Contacts or the legal right, we're like a relationship with the legal department. Which is why, and so Nastasi says specifically, we have sent all of these emails, we have done all of these things.
+
+[52:33] Are you going to can you do something other than these things? And they said, Yep. Right. So Nastasi and I talk, we decide to hand them like a big brick of cash and all of our documents that we've already documented that we have done these things, correct? Yes.
+
+[52:44] Yeah. And what did the lawyers do? They just sent the same stuff that we sent over to Amazon. Amazon came back with the same robot that was like, if this is a menstrual cup, you need to certify it to a menstrual cup standard. And then I was like, this is the same stock email.
+
+[53:05] And the lawyers were like, yeah, it looks like you need to get it tested to that standard. Well, that's a good idea. Yeah, yeah. And so we're like, but you didn't do anything that we didn't do. And then the partner writes us back and is like, well, no one should have promised you that you would have gotten something other than what you did.
+
+[53:25] And then like, we're like, what? What? You know what I mean? I was like. And they said you're lucky you got a standard with a number associated with it.
+
+[53:40] No, we're yeah, but no, we're not. Because they can't certify to that standard. Yeah. Okay. So normally the answer would be like, you need to certify.
+
+[53:48] Yeah. To a standard. Okay. The lawyers knew. So it's, yeah.
+
+[53:55] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You need to certify this not torch as a valid torch. Okay, but I can't, because it's not a torch. So for the first time in our how many years, Sas, have we been working together?
+
+[54:11] 11, 12, something like this? 12. For the first time in 12 years, yesterday, Nastasia calls me and she goes like this. I don't know, Dave. I just I I don't know.
+
+[54:22] This has never happened. Usually there's something. There's something. I you know, like I've seen with the I've seen happy Nastasia, I've seen sad Nastasia, I've seen angry Nastasia, I've seen Joyful Nastasia, I've seen all the Nastasias, but never fully accepting defeat Nastasia have I ever seen. Yeah.
+
+[54:43] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that it's like I've accepted defeat by Amazon Amazon, and now we're we have another idea, which who knows, but it's it's only gonna it's only gonna get complicated. It's gonna get complicated and it's gonna take a lot of time. People keep saying, please don't send me if you can hear my voice. Please don't send me an email asking me if we've discontinued the Sears all.
+
+[55:05] It hurts me. Or the worst one is have you gone out of business? Like that's worse. Yeah. Well, we will if we can't fix this, but no, we haven't yet.
+
+[55:15] It just like it's just painful. Like maybe, but we have we're not clear on it yet. Yeah, it's just like I want you guys to know, and also like, you know, when you're dealing with any company that's not like a uh a big like conglomerate, like any smallish company, like when you email, like you're emailing real people with feelings. Like, think about it for a second. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[55:38] Also, you know, like like literally I'm gonna chime in with things to not email. Don't ask me to recommend a competitor's mind. Not gonna do it. They're not also not safe. So yeah, just not gonna do that.
+
+[55:50] Yeah, yeah. Also, don't ask a company, and I know you want to, because I want to many times. Don't ask a company whether it's really nod nod, wink wink, okay to do some stuff that they've told you is not okay. They can't tell you to do something that they're not allowed to tell you to do. They can't.
+
+[56:09] Anyway. Just don't do it. It's not polite. It's rude to try to to put someone in the position of having to refuse something that you know they're gonna have to refuse anyway. You know what I mean?
+
+[56:21] Anyway. Have you gone out of business? Have you discontinued the seasol? No, we're just gumokes, and we can't like we're just gumokes, people. Leave us alone.
+
+[56:33] Um the pharmacist in Bibes wrote in via Instagram. Hey Dave, uh, any recommendations for making a gum syrup that's gum arabic or gum acacia for for those who use acacia as opposed to Arabic. Uh, I have a I have gum arabic on hand and I made it a couple times. However, it always tastes off to me. Any help is appreciated.
+
+[56:54] Thanks. So uh listen, uh you gum gum acacia gum arabic is a tree exudate, okay? And it comes in various uh even out of the tree. Some of it is clear, some of it is yellow, some of it is brown. What's important about the gum arabic isn't just the hydrocolloid that's in it, it is a protein, and it's one of the very few hydrocolloids that is a mixture of uh polysaccharide, the hydrocololoid itself, and a protein.
+
+[57:22] And it's the protein actually that makes it such a fantastic emulsifier, but it isn't the protein that gives it the viscosity. So the interesting thing about gum arabic, the hydrocolloid is that you can use very, very high levels of it, uh, and it does, and while it gives you some good mouthfeel, it doesn't actually get too thick, right? So that's what's kind of interesting about gum arabic. The other thing is is that it maintains its properties over a fairly wide range of dilution, so you can make a very thick syrup without it getting too thick, and you still get some bodying and a lot of emulsifying ability at lower um lower concentrations once it's diluted. So that's what it's for.
+
+[57:58] Now, um, but that in that protein impurity is still in there even in very clear white gum arabics. So I would try to just buy a higher grade of gum arabic, one that is uh, you know, I wouldn't even think of it as refined, but just a higher grade of gum arabic, lighter. The lighter it is, probably the less of an off-flavor. It shouldn't be kind of brown or yellow, and the best gum Arabics are almost clear when the syrup is made. The answer the question there or no.
+
+[58:26] Yep. All right. Anthony then wrote in via email. Uh we got this a while ago, and uh I haven't looked at it yet. But Anthony from Seattle here, uh, I saw uh this gadget, and it's so it uh it's a Kickstarter.
+
+[58:38] It's nine nine, like the number nine, which I always found it difficult. Like uh there was a uh like this three sevens flashlight company, and I found it impossible. I was trying to figure out their website. I was like, do they write sevens? Do they write the number seven?
+
+[58:51] This is the problem with having numbers in your in your website, right? Because you're like, do I write, do I write NINE or is it the number nine? It's the number nine. Nine barista, not nine baristas, nine barista.com uh is this espresso maker. And uh anyway, so Anthony wanted to get my thoughts on it, and again, I have not tested it, I've not used it, so I don't know whether it's any good, but it's an interesting concept.
+
+[59:16] So here's the concept. First of all, the problem with espresso, espresso wants to have a uh, well, it depends on how you think of it. I actually believe in a in a falling pressure profile. My favorite pressure profile is the one that's produced by the old school uh commercial spring lever operated ones, so higher pressure at the beginning, uh lower pressure at the end, but relatively smooth over that over that regime. That's my favorite.
+
+[59:41] You can argue with me, and you're probably right. That's just my favorite. Anyways, uh, you want a relatively, you know, you don't want a very low pressure or a very high pressure or one that's wildly oscillating. That everyone can pretty much agree on. And you need a fairly accurate temperature.
+
+[59:55] So uh typically the way you do that in a large machine is you have a very large boiler, and you get it up to a temperature, and then you keep throwing energy away from it, and then you put water through a heat exchanger, and that heat exchanger, because the boiler is a relatively constant temperature, because it's so thermally inefficient that it can stay at a constant temperature because it's it's always leaking energy and putting energy in. And they the heat exchanger through it, and you get a relatively constant temperature of water at a relatively constant pressure because you're using a procon uh pump and that pump is cycling and producing a fairly constant pressure. Okay? Okay. The way these guys do it is is kind of interesting.
+
+[1:00:33] They heat the water to a much higher pressure than normal. Enough pressure to actually get the full pressure that you need for a cup of espresso, which is you know, on the order of, you know, uh, what is it, 135, 140 psi, I forget exactly, you're in that range. So, like, you know, nine bar, something like this. Um they actually heat the water up to get to that temperature, which is phenomenally high, but then they put it through a reverse heat exchanger that is actually cooling it down to coffee temperature on the way to infusion. And so it's got no like electronic or moving parts.
+
+[1:01:14] It's done all I think well, it might have electric parts. I gotta I gotta look at it, but you don't you don't plug it in, it's stove top. And then it runs that way. So if it works and if it makes a genius cup, uh good cup of coffee, it's kind of a genius idea. I'm a little worried about having such a high pressure boiler there, but I don't know, it seems cool I would I would be interested in in uh trying it but anyway that's that's what it is uh they might have a pressure multiplier so they don't have to take it all the way up to 135 uh PSI I'd have to I I I looked at it a couple of weeks ago but I haven't had a time to look at it it looked like a good scheme and you know maybe someday we'll we'll try it but I mean the idea of being able to make an actual shot of espresso like on a stovetop burner is pretty cool right now I think that you missed a pun in their name and Chef Joanna is losing her mind because it is in fact nine bar like nine barista nine bar uh yeah so I guess they do take it to nine bar yeah yeah nine bar easter uh well I don't think in bar people I think in PSI I'm an American I couldn't figure out they couldn't figure out the pun for that one yeah yeah well pisties 135 pisties yeah it doesn't work not as no one's gonna buy that uh all right well good call chef thanks for uh thanks for looking up um all right uh Brandon Byrd wrote in uh what's the best way to reheat a Mornay based mac and cheese without having the sauce break I would just say uh gently right I mean if you have an induction or if you can double burner it or uh or like even like light nuke and stir like uh any John you have any good ways of reheating that stuff oh wait ma it's it's in a mac and cheese it's not the sauce it's in the mac and cheese.
+
+[1:02:56] No I like to just do it in the oven. Takes a little while like with coverage so it's so it steams itself. Like 350 and so I listen, not not too uh not too uh free again like not to like push the thing, but one thing it's really nice about hat uh for next week, because we could talk about next week, is that uh the steam function on the reheat is a freaking gene. Like being able to do a relatively like you know, increase the moisture content and reheat at the same time so that you can get the relatively rapid reheats because you don't have it covered, but it doesn't dry it out. I have to say is pretty is pretty sweet on that ANOVA.
+
+[1:03:35] So we'll definitely ask questions like that if you want to know like how it functions for for stuff like that. My two favorite now reheating tools in my kitchen are induction. The induction, induction burners, having an induction burner in your house, especially one that's relatively accurate, like makes reheating uh like leftovers and sauces a freaking dream compared to doing it on a stove because you can set like the temperature and you and you're never gonna scorch it. Because it's scorching is the problem you get on on reheating uh a lot of especially thick things, especially things with a lot of gelatin like braises like John's like lamb if he was gonna reheat it. Uh and so the induction is super useful on that and also for keep warm.
+
+[1:04:18] And the steam oven for stuff that's bigger that you don't want to put in a pot and put on induction is pretty useful for the reheat. Um, all right. Um, you can if you're gonna make the mac and cheese after you can jack it with a little extra starch and that'll hold it together a uh better. Um and if it's on the verge of breaking, you could stabilize it with some um some of your citrate crap or whatever your emulsifying salt of choice is, right? So you can you can adjust it that way and you can um and you can hit it with a little extra uh hit it with a little extra uh starch and uh that'll all that'll also help um keep it from keep it from breaking uh but of course it'll reduce the probably cheese flavor because you probably have to thin it a little more with a little more uh milk anyway um all right you said I got uh all right so I'll read this I haven't I haven't read it before uh Brandon Vickers wrote in via email and I'm this is I don't I don't know what's gonna happen yet people uh for the last year I've been dreaming about a time when we can all get together again for big events uh yeah haven't we all for reasons I don't fully understand that dream always includes a never ending soft serve party huh I have done this huh okay I'm actually qualified what's the best way to make that dream of reality get myself an old tailor or is there a way to do lots of soft serve without a machine thanks Brady Vickers from North Dakota no that's not the one with Mount Rushmore.
+
+[1:05:44] So don't get into it. Don't ask don't say anything about the Dakotas it's not the one with Mount Rushmore. I'm gonna have to say that in North Dakota your soft serve ice cream season's got to be pretty short right pretty short. I've never been to any of the Dakotas someday I would like to go um so I once found a tailor soft served three machine I've told this story so I'll be brief I've told the story before but I found one on the street and that's the advantage of of you know living in a big city especially if you live in uh non-residential neighborhoods which I did at the time is people will just wheel giant pieces of equipment out onto the street in the middle of the night and if you're the kind of person that walks around the street at like you know 2 a.m you're apt to see a soft serve machine. I found a soft mach serve machine on the side of the street.
+
+[1:06:34] I found my first oven on the side of the street. I found my um I found my my first meat slicer on the side of the street. Uh what else have I found on the side of the street? I found uh a bunch of sarinin chairs on the side of the street. I found uh I I found you if you're in New York City and you're have any kind of and I'm not even talking those things I'm just talking to you about people, that's not a dumpster dive.
+
+[1:06:58] I could go for days. You guys want to talk about dumpster diving or like how to really raid a junkyard? Back when I was a kid, you could go onto a junkyard and run over the scrap heaps and pick up scrap while the magnets were moving around and the other people were cutting stuff with oxyacetylene torches. I s I remember vividly I went into uh and this is i you know uh this scrap heap and I made sure to ask once and then go in and then never talk to the guy unless I was paying because every time I would pay, he'd be like, I don't even know why I let you into my junkyard like that. I was like, oh Jesus.
+
+[1:07:33] And I wouldn't go into car junkyards, right? Because those weren't interesting to me. I wasn't looking for car parts. I was looking for stuff to make sculptures and machines out of. So like I would be running over piles of metal that were like 30 feet high and were leftover scrap from people punching things out of uh out of steel sheets, like half inch, quarter inch steel sheets.
+
+[1:07:54] So we're talking like super jagged piles of like terminator level post-world apocalyptic garbage, right? And this guy would let me just scramble over it. Meanwhile, like 30 feet away from me, some poor son of a gun was without a respirator, cutting apart old oil tanks with an oxyacetylene torch that he was cutting through the lead paint, cutting through the oil, like just filled machines. I don't know why I was allowed in here. Anyways, uh, and I used to just with whatever I I remember I found an old saw blade that was uh four feet high, right?
+
+[1:08:26] And I used it for a sculpture piece, maybe even more, four or five feet, I forget. And I was able to get it up on its end without going through my I always wore steel toed docks. So I wasn't worried about stuff going through my foot, but my body was not similarly protected. So anyway, so I got it on its edge, I rolled it off of its pile down onto the ground and then rolled it over and bought it. And that was one of my first sculpture pieces.
+
+[1:08:49] Anyway, so you can raid these things and dumpster diving, I did I got so many good things out of dumpster dives, but even without doing that on the side of the street in New York, that's how I found my soft surf machine. Soft surf machines are very expensive. So if you're gonna get a soft surf machine, um, I would say there's probably someone who could rent it to you, right? So if you're gonna if you're gonna get it, I would look into renting, because even small ones are relatively expensive. Then the other question you gotta ask yourself is any decent size soft saw machine is gonna be 220, right?
+
+[1:09:18] So you can get a countertop one, and uh, it depends on how big a party you want to throw. Like I did a party for the party was like 40 or 50 people, and so like I had to use the big soft surf machine and took gallons and gallons. So you could get a smaller one and maybe get one used off of eBay that's on its last legs, but I I would say rental. Um, you need a big one is gonna be water cooled, so you're gonna need a hose to hook up to the water cooling system, and you're gonna need a 220 outlet to run it. Um the other problem is is that unless you're used to cooking large amounts of stuff, uh, these things take gallons and gallons of base.
+
+[1:09:54] So one thing you shouldn't do is just put a giant five gallon pot on your stove and think that you can make a creme en glaze base in in a five-gallon batch, because unless you're really good, you can't. So I made scrambled egg ice cream way before Heston made it popular, all right? And it's real gross. Like scrambled egg ice cream. If you don't want scrambled ice ice cream egg ice cream, super gross.
+
+[1:10:16] Anyway, so I would. If you're gonna do the party, I know this sounds like a cop out. I would buy the base. I would buy the base and rent the machine. Uh I would rent uh if you if you're gonna have a lot of people, I would rent two tabletop air-cooled machines.
+
+[1:10:30] Uh they might have one that can run off of one ten, I'm not sure. But soft serve parties are fantastic. Just realize this. Serve some savories because people are gonna get so like with the free fixings bar and the by the way, any fixings bar I refer to a free fixings bar because of Roy Rogers. Anyone else here ever been to a Roy Rogers?
+
+[1:10:46] Yeah. Yep. Yeah, free fixings bar, right? Yep. It's all about the free fixings bar.
+
+[1:10:50] Yeah. My hamburgers were like as tall as I was because I would fix in those sons of bitches up. I think all you have to do is get the bun on top, and it's cool, right? You could take as many fixings as you want. So anyway, I refer to any fixing things as a free fixing bar.
+
+[1:11:03] But that's what I would do. Uh soft serve uh party is great. Now, if you have the money, or if you can find one for cheap or rent, the the tailor, and I think electrofreeze also makes one. The the two flavors, twist middle is money, because everybody likes the two twists. Am I right?
+
+[1:11:19] The twist, everyone likes a twist, even if visually, visually, and get the shell, buy the shell. Do you guys like the dip or don't like the dip? Like the dip. Like, yeah. You like the dip?
+
+[1:11:32] You if you could, but if you could only have one for the rest of your life, sprinkles or dip? Sprinkles. Dip. Dip. Sprinkles.
+
+[1:11:38] Dip. Okay. Dip? Okay, stuff, sprinkles. Multi or brown?
+
+[1:11:43] Brown. Brown. Okay. Nice. So Damon, Harjoy Rogo, bartender at my old bar, once saw someone go into a soft serve, uh, soft serve place, and this was the order.
+
+[1:11:57] And this was Damon now, this is his standard ice cream order, and I want it to become every I want this to go everywhere. This should be everyone's standard ice cream order. Um, not for Nastasi, because you want the brown sprinkles, but he goes, his order was brown with different. That's chocolate sauce serve with multicolored sprinkles. But because I guess the place didn't have real chocolate flavor or whatever, the customer just ordered brown with different.
+
+[1:12:23] So I think that's a great ice cream order. What do you think? Yeah, fun to say. Yeah, like brown with different. Yeah.
+
+[1:12:30] All right. Uh next week we have Scott from ANOVA. Send us your uh combi home combi oven questions. Uh cooking issues. Oh, shoot.
+
+[1:12:40] Yes, 20 seconds. All right, listen, people, I have a proposition for people out there, engineering people out there. When I still had a bar, um, I was gonna build, I built a laser projector, right? Like old school, like draws like like vectors on the on the wall, right? But the idea was I wanted to do one where I have a hand pointer, like a like a like a like a hand wand, like a laser pointer.
+
+[1:13:05] But what happens is in my hand, there's a laser pointer, and like you move it around, and as you move your hand, it acts like a laser pointer, and the laser projector projects where it's going. But you can also draw shapes with it and lines. Am I making myself clear what what it's doing? So, like you have your hand almost like a laser pointer, but instead of it being a laser pointer, it's just a remote control that knows where it is in space, and the laser projector is throwing the laser up on the wall, but instead of just drawing a dot, it can draw shapes and lines and all kinds of stuff, as well as play vector games like Star Wars and whatnot. No, and it's because it's RG it's RGB.
+
+[1:13:44] You know who does a lot of laser work? Scott Eymendinger. Anyway, so here's my here's my here's my thing. I built the hardware, I got the basic software up and running, and I have a lot of spare parts to help somebody build a second one. But if somebody wants my spare parts, so I have most of an RGB laser, it needs a little work.
+
+[1:14:04] I have a lot of the control electronics, and I have all of the 3D models for all of the remote control parts. And I got the remote control working and talking to the laser projector. I got all everything working. I don't have time to write the software, and I'm not gonna have time to write the software for the next year and a half because I have other things to do. So this thing is just sitting in my closet taking up space.
+
+[1:14:26] So if somebody wants to take on the software side of it, I will give them all of the hardware ideas and my one to test, and then they can build one and we can both have one. Yes, it does. Alright, so if you're interested, let John know. Alrighty. This has been a Cooking Issues.
+
+[1:14:49] Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:15:03] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
+
+[1:15:24] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRM family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. This is Lou Bank. And before I ever went on any agave road trips, I was taking daily trips on the G line from Manhattan to Green Point, Brooklyn, where I live with a couple of my Marvel Comics co-workers.
+
+[1:15:48] Where we live then is about four blocks from where Duke's liquor box is located now. Where was Duke's in 1989? We sure could have used it back then. Back then you couldn't even find decent beer. But now, man, now if I were thirsty for something obscure, like, say, I don't know, a gin made with guava and passion fruit, I'd go to Duke's liquor box.
+
+[1:16:11] Haitian bitters, you thirsty for Haitian forest bitters? Hey, go to Duke's. How about heirloom tomato eau de V? I didn't even know what that was in the 1980s. But Duke's, Duke's has that.
+
+[1:16:24] Duke's has small batch distilled gems like LA1 whiskey, or if you want to drink like a druid, grab a bottle of their Glendalock pot still Irish whiskey, aged in sustainably harvested 140-year-old Irish oak barrels and ex-bourbon barrels. Or what's that you say? Does Duke's have agave spirits? Well, of course they do. Duke's Liquor Box prides itself on their selection of fine spirits and wines.
+
+[1:16:51] So you'll find rare, delicious treasures like Cinco Sentidos Tobola, Tozba, Pachuga Mescal, and Siembra Valle Ancestral Tequila Blanco. Duke's liquor box has everything you want, including a selection of New York spirits from their locals only shelf. The only thing they don't have, that's a guy named Duke. So don't ask for Duke when you visit Duke's Liquor Box at 114 Franklin in the heart of Greenpoint. You can also shop online at Duke's Liquorbox.com.
+
+[1:17:25] You know when you're wrapping up a long day in that what's for dinner panic hits? Well, when you've got convenient everyday protein from Omaha Stakes waiting at home, that panic turns into your weeknight win. And now's the time to buy during Omaha Steaks Spring Savings Event. Save big on their exclusive lineup of mouthwatering steaks, gourmet burgers, air chilled chicken, pork, seafood, and more, all delivered right to your door. Plus, get an extra $35 off with promo code AUDIO when you shop OmahaStakes.com today.
+
+[1:17:56] With over 100 years of unrivaled quality and variety, Omaha Stakes understands what you need to get dinner done. Plus, every bite is backed by their 100% guarantee. Omaha Stakes is your weeknight win. So get the world's best everyday protein during their spring savings event. Go to OmahaStakes.com for an extra $35 off when you use promo code AUDIO at checkout.
+
+[1:18:20] That's OmahaStakes.com. Promo code A-U-D-I-O. Terms apply. See site for details.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. It's a butter egg made from plants. Bring more customers in your doors with just egg. Start with a free sample at ju. S T slash H R N.
+
+[0:44] This week on Meet and Three, we rethink surplus by exploring how innovators are promoting sharing mindsets and responding to excess in creative ways. The whole life cycle of food would be the third largest greenhouse gas emitter behind China and the United States if it were a country. You know, in the age of COVID where a lot of those institutional processors did grind to a halt, and a lot of farms had to dump milk in Pennsylvania. Even while supermarket cases were bare, the organic market stayed strong. They source all these ingredients.
+
+[1:17] They do all of this work, and then they just boil it for a few minutes and then they throw it away. Tune in to Meet and Three, available wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah. We got uh John who's uh still in uh Lyme, right? Yep.
+
+[1:52] Hello. Hey, and uh we got Matt in his uh Rhode Island Heidi Hole booth. How are you doing? Doing great. Yeah, but today uh we have on not someone who is pitching uh a book or anything like this.
+
+[2:10] We have on because of many many requests, we have uh you might know him as Seattle at Seattle Food Geek. Uh Scott Heimendinger from ANOVA Culinary. How are you doing? Very nice to be here this morning. Yeah.
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+[2:24] Uh so well, first of all, Seattle, a town of many, many food geeks. How did you get Seattle Food Geek as your handle? You just first to the club or what? You know, uh the honest truth, uh uh credit goes to my mom. Uh my mom is a hustler, uh, she's a literary agent.
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+[2:42] And uh way back in the early days of food blogging, you know, when when everyone was doing it for narcissistic reasons, not just not just me. Um, I was trying to figure out like what's the branding? Like, how do I make a niche or whatever? And my mom was like Seattle Food Geek, and it stuck. Nice.
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+[2:58] Yeah. Nice. All right, cool. Uh all right, so so here's here's why you here's why uh why you're here. You've you've been with uh ANOVA since they launched their original circulator, right?
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+[3:10] No, actually. Uh we were competitors at that time. Uh oh, who were you with then? Uh I I was a co-founder of Sansair. Oh, San Zair, that's right, that's right.
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+[3:19] Okay. Apologies. No worries. I remember I remember I was talking to you back back in the uh in the day, and like later on, if we get time, and you know, encourage people in the chat room to lob bombs into us. Um ANOVA is uh interesting.
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+[3:36] Um just before we get into what we're gonna talk about, maybe like the circulator wars might be an interesting topic for some people. So for the for those of you that don't know anything about who don't know why you're here and don't know why you're listening to this show. Yeah, right. Uh we in general talk about uh Nastasi and I talk about reasons why we uh self-loathe each other, we talk about funny stories we we've done, we uh go on rants and raves, and then sometimes we talk about culinary technology, right, Sas? Yeah.
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+[4:07] Yeah. Uh so one of the favorite pieces of equipment which has become commonplace now is the immersion circulator. And I have the fortune and misfortune of having lived through like the entire circulator revolution. I was working on on it at the time as an educator. So the immersion circulator, which we all know now, and ANOVA has a pretty good market share in the you know, not crazy expensive like chunk of it, right?
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+[4:34] They were two thousand dollar pieces of lab laboratory equipment prior to uh the mid-2000s. Then in the mid-2000s, um, you know, they they went down to about $800. Um, and that's where they stayed for a number of years. One of my old interns at the French culinary uh was one of the founders of a company called Nomiku, which was the first emergency circulator to break the $500 barrier. Uh, and then you know, after that, um, you know, Sanserre, Enova broke the $200 barrier.
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+[5:10] Uh, and you know, then there's kind of this wave of circulators. And the interesting thing is, some of them got bought by big companies. And so you have now Breville owns poly science's uh food, and you know, they're not doing as much with it as I think they they could have. And uh ANOVA now is owned by Electrolux, correct? That's correct.
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+[5:32] Yeah. And so, like, it's interesting to me that the mode that these kind of the bigger players, because Electrolux is a huge player, especially in um Europe, um, you know, and obviously uh, you know, and it's not doesn't just go with what you know, circulators, it's a lot of these more niche, what were niche pieces of equipment. It seems that what the big folks are doing is um is buying small companies that they like and then growing them that way. And so uh with that, I guess after the I guess after the electrolux purchase, ANOVA went into what is a much more complicated thing to build uh as opposed to an immersion circulator, which is uh a combi oven. Am I about right here?
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+[6:15] Yeah, uh, although I would clarify that complicated is an understatement. All right, so and it's the combi oven that brings you here today. So, like uh like our listeners, like some of them are professionals, been in a professional kitchen and know a lot about uh like you know what I would call commercial combi ovens. So for those of you that aren't, right, and don't have a lot of experience, for the past, oh, I don't know, 20 years or so, they started becoming more common. Uh and they came almost primarily from Europe, rationale, uh Electrolux being another big supplier, uh, then there's you know, Auto Sham, etc.
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+[6:56] And then goes down on the line. Um these things called combi ovens. And what is a combi oven? Because uh, when I first heard combi oven, you know, 25 years ago, combi, what do you mean combinate the combination steam and oven? Because it started out based basically as a combination, like here's an oven and we're gonna put a steam function into it, right?
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+[7:15] But because of companies like Rationale, they who have uh they rationale pioneered some of the early like uh highly electronic control, as wonky as it was back in the day, highly electronic control of the oven and the steam functions along with the convection functions, and they become much more than something that you can operate as a steamer or as an oven or even just as a steam-injected oven. It's become uh a way for um cooks in restaurants to do very high volumes of very high quality products, and we could talk more about why later, but um this technology, which is de rigor, like even like a mid-level operator now, if they have the money and they're doing a lot of volume, is gonna get a bunch of combi ovens, even though they are fantastically expensive. How much is a is a is a full height rationale now, Scott? Do you even know? Uh I th for full height, I think your starting price of entry is around 20 grand, maybe 25.
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+[8:10] Uh, and then it goes way up from there. Yeah, so rich people have them in their house, like Nathan Mirvold, he has a rationale because why wouldn't he? Yeah, he know what I mean. He does have it in over precision oven too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[8:22] Right, but like, but like you know, he has a rationale because what I like to say about Nathan, and this is no knock on him, but his yacht's always a little bit bigger than your yacht. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter what your yacht is. His yacht's always a little bit bigger.
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+[8:35] If I could have gotten them installed in my kitchen, I would have followed suit. But oh hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh but but we thought it was sort of high time that the rest of us had access to this way of cooking. Right.
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+[8:47] And so, you know, and then there have been uh home there are home, home, quote unquote home, but they've been decidedly high end. Gaganow's uh home combi oven is what is that? That's like eight grand, something like that. Yeah, they're pretty spending. Yeah.
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+[9:02] Miele's is like what, three grand, two grand, something like that? Yeah. Uh and Cuisinart came out with a toaster oven combi. And I have to say, as I I know some people who enjoyed it. I never enjoyed uh I never enjoyed Cuisinart's toaster oven combi.
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+[9:24] I have to say, like the control not only were the controls unpleasant, it had the worst rack of any oven I've ever used in my life. It was like, imagine like uh uh Jack and the giant bean stalk got together with the giant, Jack did, and Jack was like, I'm gonna design this oven to be my scale giant. All you have to do is work on the rack. And the giant was like, okay, Jack. And then like the giant's toast is like five feet across, right?
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+[9:53] So the giant doesn't understand that, like, for us, if you have very wide spacing between your rack things, that the toast is gonna droop down and it's be kind of gonna become unpleasant. Did you notice this? Uh yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Um, but that's not the first thing I notice about ovens of that class, the the Cuisinart, you know, combi steam one that developed a little bit of a cult following. Um the the thing that catches my attention there is that it's what we call uh steam as a feature, as opposed to steam or humidity control.
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+[10:26] So that oven uh is very much akin to taking a toaster oven and a closed steamer and smashing the the two together. Uh it allows you to inject steam into the cooking process, but without any sort of monitoring or control or feedback, as opposed to what uh high-end combi ovens do and what our oven does, which is depending on the mode, lets you actually control the relative humidity inside the cooking cavity, uh, which turns out to be like a much more important thing to do. Yeah, I I have to tell you, uh, just as an aside, whenever anyone says feature, like um the words that my dad used to say to me over and over growing up, my dad's a double-e engineer. Uh-huh. And uh whenever anything would like suck that he was working on or break, or like not work the way he had intended, like the software wasn't working properly, he would say, Don't worry, we'll sell that as a feature.
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+[11:26] Yeah, right. There are no bugs, there are just new features. Yeah, sometimes anytime anyone says feature, that's what I say. Sometimes undocumented features, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Undocumented feature.
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+[11:37] It's feature. Yeah. Uh okay. So what's miraculous about this is is one, yes, they are trying to give you uh control, but it's at this, and I'm very familiar from my centerfuge work with uh Nastasia and John. Uh like you are in that you are in that zone of price where this is an unbelievable value, right?
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+[12:02] It's $600, right? Roughly $600, something like that. Yep, $600 in the US. Yeah, it's roughly $600, and for that you are getting a fully functioning controllable, electronically controlled combi oven. Now let that sink in.
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+[12:17] Now, here's the issue, right? $600 is not free, right? So it's it's way above like an impulse buy, right? But it is unbelievable deal for what you're getting. I mean, like I don't think anyone can argue it's an unbelievable deal for what you're getting.
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+[12:36] Um that said, right, and this is where I'm going to start going. We have a bunch of questions, I'm going to get to them. Um before we can maybe get to some of the questions, we'll get to the, you know, why you why you want to do this or what it's for or what I could talk about some of the tests that I've run and you can talk about tests that you've run. Um there is no such thing as a straight win. And I know this from when I was doing the centrifuge work.
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+[13:00] So the main you're not losing for the $600, you're not losing really like anything other than its main, its main issue is that it's only taking 20 amps out of the wall. Yep. Right? Or 18 amps out of the wall, right? So it's a relatively large oven.
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+[13:20] Uh it's larger than the uh Breville Smart Air, which is kind of on the large size of what people will call a toaster oven, right? So it frankly it still fits on your counter. I can tell you that because I know I currently have it sitting on the counter in in my in my house, right? But the main limitation that you guys who have used professional combi ovens are gonna realize. Because the way a professional combi oven is is they use a phenomenal amount of power.
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+[13:47] A phenomenal amount of power. Like uh I looked at a full rack electric combi oven uh once for a friend of mine, and uh, you know, she was like having some sort of issue with it, and I looked at her circuitry, and that combi oven, uh, when we calculated it, uh, took more than twice the entire power input into my apartment. More than twice the entire power input into my apartment. Plus, they're plumbed, right? Now, what do you get for that?
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+[14:17] Uh you turn on, uh you turn on a uh a professional combi oven and they come up to temp fairly quickly. They recover fairly quickly, right? Uh on the downside, a professional combi oven's controls aren't actually as accurate typically as what you have on the ANOVA. The ANOVA, the ANOVA seems to have taken a strategy where they're saying, look, we're gonna we're gonna take X amount of power out of the wall. We know what that limitation is, so we're gonna be fairly accurate and parsimonious with the way we dose things out.
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+[14:43] We're gonna be fairly well insulated. Um also I'm assuming that your choice of all low emissivity sit uh surfaces was so that you didn't have to spend a lot of time heating up the actual walls of the oven or with a high emissivity service. Um we can get more into that later for those of you that really want to get into the weeds, but something that people don't think about with their ovens and their pans nearly enough is their emissivity and like the difference in emissivity, even emissivity just means how well it it absorbs and and and uh releases uh radiation, right? So the simple way to think of it is when I say high emissivity uh uh oven, think any black internal oven, anything with uh an enamel surface on the inside, and you're getting a huge uh amount of your heat in a high emissivity oven from radiation. And the the the good thing about that, right, is it's good for it's good for browning, and it's also good for recovery because uh the surfaces of things don't cool down as fast as uh the air does.
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+[15:44] And so if your oven has a large balance of radiative heating on the inside due to it's the fact that it's high emissivity, it's black, it's enamel, whatever, right? You get fairly fast recovery. The downside is it's longer heat up time and it's less energy efficient. If you're dealing with something like the ANOVA, where it's all stainless on the inside, and your only high emissivity element is your top element, which you know you don't even use for a lot of the cooking, right? Then uh you know you can you can do a bigger amount of work in uh with less power.
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+[16:17] Would you say that's an accurate statement or no? It's an accurate statement, but it also uh speaks to the type of cooking scenarios that this oven uh is designed for, which uh a large part of that is as uh a replacement or an alternative to water bath sous-vide. So the oven has a dedicated sous-vide mode uh where we expect that you're gonna do long, low temperature cooks at high humidity or at low humidity if you want, depending on the uh the food. If you've got something with skin, uh doing a low humidity version of that cook is really cool. Um it's designed around all of that where accuracy matters, where our ability to meter uh our power in and not overshoot, you know, overshooting by uh a few fractions of a degree for you know any considerable amount of time in a sous-vide scenario is just not good enough.
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+[17:11] Uh and so these decisions factor into that. Yeah, yeah. Um right. So what I would say for people looking at it and they're like, well, what's the catch, right? The catch for me so far, the catch is just it takes a relatively, especially if you're doing the kind of work that I I find interesting, which are high temperature with steam.
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+[17:31] So we need to talk about that in a minute, but high temperature with steam work, uh for things like breads, is it just takes a it takes a while to heat up. And the temperature drop, especially on the higher temperatures when you're putting a very high heat load in, like you notice it. It pops up and down. The other thing is that for an old fogie such as myself, I'm not used to dealing with uh you can operate the oven from the front, but really the oven wants you to operate itself from the phone. I mean, honestly, the oven wants you to use your telephone.
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+[18:04] Like, you know what I'm saying? All the all the really sophisticated, powerful stuff. Uh, the phone is the control service for that. Yeah. Now, before I go further, and uh I gotta answer some questions because people I I guarantee you a good chunk of people have no idea what the hell we're talking about, right?
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+[18:21] Uh but I I gotta indulge myself one more time because I'm gonna figure it. Do you allow third parties to write applications for this oven yet or in the future? Will you? No, uh not currently, and it's not in the plan. Um we know that there are members of the community who would jump at the chance to do it.
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+[18:39] Um but we have to keep safety uh in mind. We're still on the hook at the end of the day. Uh and right now the risks of you know, creating a program that caused a safety problem outweigh the potential benefit to unlocking that to the community. So maybe in the future, it's definitely like that's that's sort of the the type of folks we are. It's sort of in our spirit to enable that sort of thing.
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+[19:02] But but for right now, it's just deprioritized so far that that I can safely say no. And uh people are gonna want to know can you upgrade the firmware via the uh internet connection? Absolutely. Uh the firmware, we've actually released maybe half a dozen firmware updates since we started shipping uh in the fall. Uh they happen automatically if you're if you've paired your oven to Wi-Fi, they they get pushed out, you know, overnight uh and it's sort of invisible, or you can do it on demand through the app.
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+[19:29] Uh and we we keep making continuous improvements, both firmware and app updates. All right. So let's talk about I'm gonna talk about everything that you can do in a regular combi oven, what the different things that are in this oven are and what why you would want them. So you have a box, you have a big box, you have in that box a fan, you have a rear heater, right? You have a heater on the bottom.
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+[19:52] Both the rear heater and the bottom heater are not radiant. Okay. So like uh you can't, there you you can't, they're not radiant. Then on the top, you have what looks like a fairly standard electric radiant element, heating element. Yep.
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+[20:09] Uh you have a uh a port, which I guess is where the steam comes in, and you also you have an air sensor, you have an internal probe uh jack attachment, and you have uh uh in addition to the air temperature, you have what's called a wet bulb uh sensor, which is fundamentally I I would guess a thermometer with a wet sock that's dipping into the tank. Is that about right? That's about right. It's a tiny little reservoir surrounding uh uh a thermosker. Right.
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+[20:40] Okay. So uh for those of you that and and and you know, there's a couple of rules, right? There are rules to the oven. Uh like if you want to use uh, you know, like certain times you have to use the rear, if you use the rear heating element, you need to use the fan because I'm guessing that's how it actually puts the heat into the oven. Yep.
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+[21:00] Uh you know, there are some rules, but in general, when you open up the phone, unlike let's say the Queas Nart or even like you know, some full-size combi ovens, you can have fairly uh minute control of all of the different functions. So uh for those of you that have never for those of you that have used a combi oven, uh I'll say this. The control works very well. The control on the um for the sous vide works. I have never in my life, so uh mo you can still cook in the bag.
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+[21:32] So for those of you that are saying, can I use this as a replacement for the circulator? You can. So I I don't know I don't know that I mean the good news about it as opposed to a circulator is if you get the two racks and you keep everything separate, you could probably do a higher total volume with less worry in this unit than you can uh in your in a standard circulator. I would say that. Yeah.
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+[21:58] I'm I'm detecting a little hesitation in your voice about Sous vide in the oven, Dave. Uh no, well no, so here's the test. So the test is, and I looked up several other people's tests, and I only did one, and I did the worst, I did worst case scenario test. So for those of you uh that you know weren't working in in and around or teaching or you know, doing education with chefs in and around 2005, when uh 2004, 2000, 2005, when the when the Sous vide panic hit New York City, um there was everyone was starting to use circulators and starting to use vacuum uh machines, and we got hit. And uh at the time, very few, even higher-end chefs had combi ovens in their kitchens because they hadn't done renovations since combi ovens had become D Rigur.
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+[22:45] And so there there wasn't a lot of opportunity for people to move away from um move away from uh the circulator and keep the effects they wanted. So everyone was scrambling. And what they ended up using was a piece of technology called the CVAP. CVAP was invented as a holding oven for Kentucky fried chicken, and we can talk about this later because this to me, this to me, what I'm like later, remind me, somebody remind me, is the killer app for this kind of oven. Killer.
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+[23:11] Killer. Killer. I'm just gonna tell you now. This oven reheats things like a freaking beast. If you reheat things, right?
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+[23:20] Everyone's gonna talk about cooking and like cooking, cooking. Great. Cook this, cook this, cook that, cook, cook. If you ever reheat things, it is like without any shadow of a doubt, the best reheating implement I have ever used in my life. It is a freaking miracle for reheating.
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+[23:43] Especially in the last 12 months, when we're trying to like hit takeout really hard to you know help keep uh restaurants afloat, to be able to put your takeout containers directly in the oven on the rack and set a setting and walk away and not worry about time, and things are as if they were being served fresh. Uh that like the the intersection of quality and laziness is pretty amazing. Uh check this, check this. People, people, has this happened to you? You make pancakes, right?
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+[24:14] Your recipe for pancakes takes a uh two cups of uh two cups of uh buttermilk, right? So you have X amount of pancakes, but you know, with COVID, maybe you don't have that many people over. You have extra pancakes. What are you gonna do? You're gonna throw them away?
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+[24:27] No, because you're cheap like me. So what do you do? You you you put them in a in a zippy, you take the air out, and you freeze it, right? Now, it in the old days, I used to call those weekday pancakes because I would never eat that because it's not a fresh pancake, right? But you take that pancake, you turn your oven on to like 300, 325 and 75% steam.
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+[24:44] And holy, holy cow, because it doesn't dry out on the outside. It heats through relatively quickly and evenly. And it's like for a pancake, it's not quite 100%, but it's like I would you you you can adjust the temperatures, but for reheating things like waffles, pancakes, you make banana bread, you freeze when you make banana bread, right? The mistake is is that you're like, banana bread's moist, it's gonna stay good forever, right? Banana bread does not stay good forever, right?
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+[25:14] It just keeps getting a little bit crappier every day, and you don't notice it until the first slice of banana bread is great, and the last one you're like powering through the banana bread, right? You forget why you like banana bread because you're pounding through that last slice of banana bread. What you should be doing is uh let it cool for a long time, overnight. Banana bread takes a lot longer to cool than you think because it's so freaking dense, which is why it takes so long to cook. That's why banana bread takes uh a full hour to cook, whereas like a loaf of bread can be done in like a half hour, whatever.
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+[25:41] I digress. Slice the banana bread, put parchment in between the slices, freeze it, and then put that sucker into uh the oven at 300 degrees, 75% steam. That's what I use, mean Scott, you can tell me what you use. And oh my god, does that reheat like a mother? Yeah, it's fantastic.
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+[25:57] The the killer scenario for me here though is we've um so my it's it's just my wife and me in our apartment here, and to try to break up uh the monotony of the you know the same walls and have some experiences during COVID, uh, we've done fancy Friday. So Friday we would, you know, do a little extra indulgent meal or get uh get one of these sort of really cool to-go boxes from a fancier restaurant in town. And sometimes these boxes were like, you know, a beautiful piece of protein, a nice steak or some shellfish or whatever, right? That was pre-cooked and then allowed to cool, and they give you the reheat instruction, you know, set your oven to 400 degrees and put it in for fit, whatever, whatever. But I can I can picture the chef crying, knowing that the quality, once it gets rethermed at home in a normal oven, is going to have plummeted compared to what it tasted like uh uh you know when it when it was put into the box when it was fresh.
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+[26:52] But in this case, we get to play by a different set of rules. So instead of using those traditional temperatures, you know, 425 or for 15 minutes or whatever until it's warm in the center, instead we get to use sous- vide rules here. So I'll set the oven to, you know, if we've got a piece of beef or something, I'll say, you know, 56 Celsius, uh, whatever that translates to in Fahrenheit, at uh 100% humidity, and I'll throw the protein in there in the paper box that it came in, because I know it's never gonna overheat uh, you know, to the point where that would be a problem. And then we can casually take our time enjoying the salad course or having a glass of wine or doing a dance party or setting up the laser, whatever we're gonna do for the night. And when we take that protein out, it is perfectly re-thermed to the same internal doneess uh as when it was delivered from the restaurant, uh, and and like zero compromise, and it's it's just kind of amazing.
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+[27:49] Yeah, yeah. So uh here's also, and this is gonna tie back because I realized I didn't finish what I was talking about when you said uh when you said I sense intrepidation about sous-vid in the oven, I started talking about CVAPs. CVAPs, so people couldn't afford combi ovens, so what they got is this thing called a CVAP. And a CVAP functions similarly to the way that Scott is talking about with the ANOVA, in that they have a separate control where you're controlling the air temperature, and then you're also controlling what's called the wet bulb. So you're controlling, we can talk about it in a minute, you're controlling the humidity in the oven.
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+[28:21] And they it was intended, it was built to keep fried chicken, uh, like literally Kentucky fried chicken, uh holding for hours in a Kentucky fried chicken. And so the theory is that uh by correctly setting the difference in how hot the air is, right, versus how uh hot uh uh essentially how hot a wet thermometer is, right? You can you can keep the outside of something crispy. This is the miracle of moisture management that I'm actually writing my current book about, right? Oh, right on.
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+[28:52] Yeah. It's like you can keep the outside crispy and without drying out the inside. If you put uh something into a normal oven and you set that oven temperature uh higher than the local boiling point of water, even lower because it'll evaporate, it's just gonna get drier and drier and drier and drier. If you set the humidity uh exactly right in the oven, you will still eventually dry out the product. But basically you get to choose the moisture level that's at the surface, right, where the crust is, and also not uh set that moisture level to the immediate and permanent detriment of the stuff on the inside, right?
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+[29:31] And so uh that's why these ovens were developed. Now, on the reheat side, that what that means is you you don't just have to reheat proteins or wet things, you can also, and I tested this because my son uh Booker enjoys nothing more than ordering fried calmari from uh outside of our house, right? You can reheat fried foods in this sucker, right? Uh just by getting the humidity right now. Now you still have to be careful because duh, it will still dry out because duh, the oven is still real hot.
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+[29:59] But you can uh, you know, fried reheated fried foods always pretty sad. But you can do, is it 100%? No, but you can do the best job I see possible on reheating fried foods using humidity in this. Now, back to what I was saying on Sous-Vide. So all of these uh high-end chefs think like your John Georgies, think like Jean-Georges and like these kind of people were getting this oven, this uh this uh CVAP, this like this uh wet bulb uh oven into their kitchens, and they were turning all of their uh all of their uh things to 100% humidity.
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+[30:34] And they were using them as sous- vide cookers uh without bags because the health department was messing with you, right? And uh, and so a lot of people got into Sous vide and then into hot holding with high humidity using these CVAP ovens. And they're also low-powered, by the way, because they plug into normal sockets. So they have a lot of the same, um, they have a lot of the same kind of um if you've used the CVAP a lot, this oven's gonna make a lot of sense to you. I mean, it's make a lot more sense because you don't choose some dumb crispiness level, you actually get to choose like real temperatures, but um it will make sense to you in terms of like the power requirements as opposed to people who are used to just brute forcing the way their way through things with a full-size combi.
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+[31:17] Um but like the one test that I ran on Sous vide, I wanted to try using Sous vide without the bag. So it's not really Sous vide because it's not with a bag, but low temperature cooking without a bag. And most of the people on the internets who have tested uh the ANOVA with bagless cooking, and by the way, it came up to temperature fairly quickly, right? Uh I mean, in other words, like uh it didn't take that much longer to do in the oven that would have taken in the circulator, maybe a couple of minutes, uh on on a typical inch and something steak, right? Which is what I was doing.
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+[31:50] My standard test is rib steaks. Why? Because I like to eat them. Um but I did the hardest test of all. I left it in there without a bag circulating for seven hours.
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+[32:04] And it's good because like one of the things about hot holding without a bag is that everyone is like, you can do it for a certain length of time. And I don't know what that time is. Have you done bagless? I also don't know because I didn't, I stupidly, because I was lazy and I haven't had a lot of time to test, I didn't do one in the bag for seven hours, like on the on the circulator next to me, and then one uh in the oven. So it could have just been that I didn't like that particular steak because it was from Trader Joe's.
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+[32:33] I didn't have time to go get the steak I normally get. And no offense to Trader Joe's steaks, but I don't buy Trader Joe's steaks, so I have no idea whether they're good or bad. Yeah. Uh so, but anyway, I like I was like, I didn't get quite the texture I wanted out of a seven-hour hold on it, uh, as I as I'm used to. What are your thoughts on super long holds in a bagless scenario?
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+[32:55] So the uh the oven will do just fine in that scenario. Oh, it did. The oven was fine. Yeah, the the only thing you need to worry about is if you're working with a product where um where prolonged oxidation is going to be problematic, and that's not going to be a problem for everything. So, for example, um, I've done racks of ribs in the oven.
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+[33:17] You can you could actually fit a lot of ribs uh in this oven, and with uh with a dry rub on them, uh, you know, they can go 12 hours, you can go 24 hours, you can go even longer if you want. You don't really need to worry about oxidation because uh all that salt on the outside of the meat uh is gonna take care of microbial activity. But if you've got something where you know bugs wanna kind of swim and grow and and uh these these don't generally uh uh cause a health concern at SUV temperatures, but can sometimes create uh off flavor profiles, then that's a good use case for a bag scenario uh where these aerobic microbes would be stopped in their tracks because you've created an anaerobic environment. Yeah, and you talked about the oxidation too. Yeah.
+
+[34:03] Yeah. Uh but it's uh but for most things um it it really is one to one. So we've done head to head tests where we've taken uh you know the the uh uh same piece of meat, in other words, two uh two side by side adjoining cuts off of the same primal. Uh one went in the bag, one went not in the bag, uh cooked in the same conditions, and in fact, a third went in the sous vide bath. Uh and then uh and they were all pre-seared at uh for exactly the same amount of time.
+
+[34:34] In fact, deep fried uh for our pre-sear, just to get rid of uh any X factor and also because it's amazing. Um and when you cut through them uh and you and you look, you know, one next to the other, they are indistinguishable. It is like the best version of the ball and cup game uh because you win every time. Um how long were you running those tests? So those were like, you know, two two and a half hour cooks, something like that.
+
+[35:00] Um so uh yeah, so in that case, you know, that's not a long enough time that you might develop uh off flavors. Um but the good news is you have the option. Uh, if you prefer to cook in a bag for other reasons, you know, if you've got uh if you're if you're doing cook chill or or uh or make a head, or you've got a product that arrived uh cryovaced and frozen in a sous-vid safe bag, and you just kind of want to do it that way, um, you are very welcome uh to do that. But can I tell you a secret? Yeah.
+
+[35:32] I sometimes I sometimes circulate in the bags that they came in in from the store. Mm-hmm. Me too. I have I have floated away more than one grocery store label that was adhered to my you know pre-seasoned carnitas or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, don't tell anyone.
+
+[35:49] I know, I know. This is the this is the dirty little secret, is that like with all of this culinary technology, really it it is heroin for laziness. Yo, yeah, the truth of the matter is you come home, like the house is freaking torn upside down, you thought you had all this energy, you don't. You see the thing in the bag, it's in a bag. You know the seal is good because it's still good and you got it home from the store.
+
+[36:13] Yep. It's going in the water. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I am not mad at that.
+
+[36:18] Um, but I think it's worth pointing out that a bagless scenario opens up some new possibilities that a bag scenario either prevents or is a pain in the ass about. Uh and specifically, um non-equilibrium cooking. So most of the time when people are cooking sous-vid at home, in fact, 99 point something percent of the time, you're doing an equilibrium style cooking method, unless you're you're quite advanced. Um, where you say, hey, I like, you know, my steak uh uh cooked decor at 55 C or whatever your preference is. And so you set your Sous-Vide bath for 55 or 56 C, and you use the the lookup table to know how long it needs to stay in there until it's done, and then you pull it out and you're done and you're happy and it's predictable.
+
+[37:06] And it can sit there and coast uh for as long as you want if dinner's delayed or you or you just want to do a prolonged cook. But uh if you increase the temperature of the cooking environment even just a little bit, it can dramatically speed up the time it takes for that food to reach your desired core temperature. The problem is you've created a strike zone for yourself, where if it stays in that higher heat environment for too long, you'll overshoot your temperature. So, what you really want is a way to keep tabs on that internal dundness temperature, which is a really great use case for a probe thermometer. Uh so shove a probe thermometer uh in the food.
+
+[37:50] That's that's sort of a tall order uh with water bath sous vide because you need to have these really fine needle probes, you gotta have this closed cell phone. Trigger, you're triggering me. I know, yeah. Trigger, trigger! It's work, man.
+
+[38:04] It is work. Can I tell you? Can I tell you a quick story about that? Yeah, go for it. So uh when when okay, so what we're talking about is if you need to measure the temperature on the inside of food when you're cooking in a wall in a water bath, the old way was everyone had their own foam tape that they bought from different industrial suppliers.
+
+[38:20] There was never any one real supplier, right? And you would put that tape on and then you would shove a fine probe in, and then you'd put it in the water bath and you would pray. Now you had to start doing this once the health department got on because they required uh verification. But all of the freaky beaky Europeans who used to do the low temperature cooking based on the teaching of like even Bruno Gusseau did it by Georges Praulou, the original uh sausage fingered, now dead uh butcher who popularized uh foie gras cooking, right? Uh uh Sous vide for the for the three brothers fat, as I will call them, the Schwagro brothers, right?
+
+[38:53] Uh so he would do it. And so after the health department hit and like you know, turned off Sous vide in uh New York City, you know, in the early 2000s, I went to Georges Pralu himself, uh the uh charcuterie de how how would you say sausage fingers in uh in in French, John? I don't know, but the little literal translation we can say is doigt de saucisson. Yeah, yeah. That's what he had.
+
+[39:20] Douit de saucisson. And like big ones, like like freaking, like, you know, not like little, not like uh lamb casings, not like uh not a merguez finger. We're talking like, you know, brat fingers. Summer sausage, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[39:34] Doigt du brat. You know what I mean? And uh from guessing from hanging around him, maybe beer cooked brats, if you know what I mean. Uh but the um anyways, so like this guy, uh Pralu, famous, and I've probably told this story before on the show, but whatever. Uh maybe I'll try to tell it differently in case you've heard this.
+
+[39:51] So he goes in there and well known, and I'm there. Uh, like all of these famous New York City chefs are there, like people from uh um what's it called? People from the uh per se were there, like JG had John Georges had people there. It was at Boulet's David Boulet's test kitchen, and like all these people were top, top of their game at the time. Plus, like Wiley was there.
+
+[40:14] We had we had a whole crew there, right? And Bruno Gusseau from Cuisine Solutions, who's like, you know, you know, the the godfather of not Sous vide, low temperature, or as he calls it, juscaton, the correct temperature. He hates low temperature. Bruno Gusseau hates the word low temperature, and he hates he hates all that because he wants everyone to call it like correct temperature, I guess. Juce Gaton.
+
+[40:36] I can still hear him saying it, uh, yelling it at me. Anyway, uh, so all of us were there, and uh Pralu McSausage Fingers like takes this foie gras, starts insulting Hudson Valley Foie gras, which was a huge mistake in New York City to be insulting Hudson Valley Foie Gras because I think it had been treated poorly, and so he was having trouble deveining it, and the thing was getting all mutated, right? So then he rolls it into a torchon, packs it into a freaking uh one of those what are those uh ceramic foie gras things called, uh guys. You remember anyone remember you know what I'm talking about? They're white, they're they're shaped like little loaf bricks that you you roll the torchon, and you and if you're not gonna have it free, you jam it into the little white ceramic thing.
+
+[41:14] Do you guys know what I'm talking about? The square-ish, it looks like a little mini long Pullman loaf thing that you can squish the terrine into. Anyway, so he puts it into that, vacuums it, puts his tape over, puts an extra piece of tape over, shoves the needle in, and here's where the trigger comes from, throws it into throws, puts it into the water bath, right, and then immediately the tape lifts off, the needle comes out, the bag fills up with water, it then gets an air bubble, lifts up, floats upside down, the entire thing fills with water, and you have foie gras de circulator bath. And he still, the guy, I don't think had done actual cooking in a number of years, he was already pretty old at that point. He does, I guess what I would have done is like kind of pretend it didn't happen, and then like pulled it out of the bath.
+
+[42:02] And then if you've ever had poached foie gras, like he like cuts it and it's like weeping circulator liquid, and like the fat's fully gone out of it and rendered, and it's like I still remember feeling like, oh geez. You know, like, oh my god. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[42:22] And so like that's the trigger because anyone who's used tape in a bath knows that you're gonna get a uh uh one of those tapes breaking eventually. Yeah. Uh that uh that is uh a very visceral way of explaining the problem. I love it. Um but if you're in a bathless scenario, and if you're bagless, well, you can just shove a damn probe into the By the way, Nastasio's been calling me bagless for years.
+
+[42:52] Um anyway, you can do that. Uh you can do that if you don't need to deal with the water bath, right? So you can accelerate cook time, you can monitor core temperature, so that means that you can use a uh hotter than core cooking strategy, you get your food done faster. So here's the difference. That one inch thick steak, right?
+
+[43:12] Our like benchmark time for for uh cook to core doneness is you know an hour, right? Plus or minus, whatever. Um if you bump up the ambient cooking temperature from let's say 55 C to 65 C, or which is an addition of about 20 degrees Fahrenheit, that hour drops to 27 minutes. Yeah, uh for for those that pay attention to how heat works, uh, heat only flows when there's a delta. So the smaller the and if the the amount of heat you put in at a particular time depends on that delta.
+
+[43:46] So any delta at all gives you a lot bigger jump than no delta. Yep. But when you said bump up, now in my head, I can't think of anything but uh it's not but bump up the volume, bump up the volume, bump up the volume, dance, dance. That's all I have going through my head now. So it's gonna be difficult for me to make any sort of sense of uh uh of anything.
+
+[44:05] All right, so uh another uh test that I ran that I couldn't get to work quite right, I was super excited. Maybe you can tell me how to make it work, is uh, and I did this last night as the final test before I talked to you. So another thing combi ovens are fantastic at because they have, again, they take a phenomenal amount of energy, is uh they actually function as full-fledged steamers. So, like if you I mean, if you're a real lobster restaurant, you probably get a pressure steamer, but let's not talk about that, right? But you could throw like uh a boatload of lobsters into a combi, you could do buns, you can do blah blah blah.
+
+[44:41] So I was like, all right, I'm gonna try to do a bunch of steam work. So I went and got, you know, as because I'm not crazy, you know, I didn't have a lot of time, I I got a bunch of frozen bow, a bunch of frozen uh shumai, a bunch of uh frozen um, you know, but just a bunch of assorted frozen uh uh like uh bun-like and dumpling-like dim sum delicacies. And uh I put them in, but I put them in just at not, I didn't use sous vide. I just put it in as 212 100% steam, and they took about 50% longer than they would in my steamer, and they were dry on the outside, like they're tacky on the outside. So, what did I do wrong?
+
+[45:23] Can you use it like that? Because if you can make it work, so what I hoped would happen, I put uh for those of you that I'm about to tell you something, I know that all of you already have parchment paper in your house, right? Because come on, people, parchment paper. Like parchment paper is like sweet. If you have room in your house, consider going to a professional restaurant supply and buying the pre-cut sheets of full sheet rack, full sheet tray parchment.
+
+[45:54] Now I know you're saying that your oven doesn't accept full sheets, and that's fine. Uh, but uh the easiest thing to do, that's the worst thing about home parchment paper is it comes on a roll and it's rolled up and it's a complete nightmare. Like rolled parchment paper. How many times have you cut a small piece of parchment paper off that roll because you're gonna put a bun or a roll on it to rise? And before, as soon as you put it on the counter, it turns into a uh a coil, and then you can't put anything on top of it.
+
+[46:24] And then you have stuff going over, and I'm the kind of guy that gets virulently angry when this sort of thing happens. And it's another reason why I always I like almost coat all of my pans with spray grease just to keep my parchments down. You know what I mean? Yeah, but if you buy this pre-flattened thing, ain't nothing easier than folding that parchment sheet in half, and just a knife just goes shunk and perf don't use scissors. That's a that's a that's a chump move.
+
+[46:50] Use scissors. You you fold it in half and knife shoom, and even then quarters, shoom. And if you keep uh uh one of these boxes of flat parchments in your house, you you're not gonna regret it. Am I right about this, Scott? Oh, absolutely.
+
+[47:02] In fact, uh I found a supplier on Amazon who has uh uh uh recycled parchment pre-cut for jelly roll pan size, which is like perfect for this oven and sheet, sheet, sheet uh all day long. It's awesome. Yeah, so what you do, what I hoped you would do is you would take the uh the pan, you well, you get a pan, we'll talk about pans in a minute, pan, uh rack, parchment, and then all of your steamed, like you know, dim sum a lots on top in the oven and go, and you could do a lot more than you could in a traditional even three-basket decent size uh steamer. But what did I do wrong and can it be fixed? So, first, not totally your fault.
+
+[47:41] Uh uh second, uh it turns out you'll actually get a better result at 213 than 212, uh, because it's a threshold value for the way that we control steam generation. So if you are at 212 or below and you put in 100% steam, we're actually generating 100% relative humidity. Right. If you put in 213 and above, then you're actually controlling sort of the duty cycle of steam. So 100% steam at 213 is gonna produce a lot more steam than 100% at 212.
+
+[48:13] That said, um, we also recognize that right now uh the oven is a little deficient in this pure steam mode, exactly the scenario you described, but there's hope. Um our boiler, so we've we've got a dedicated boiler that's in the in the back of the oven, it's behind the rear panel near the convection fan. And uh that boiler is a 1200 watt boiler. Now you add together the the 1200 watt boiler and the 1600 watt top heating element and the uh 1600 watt rear element, whatever, and you get way more power than we can safely pull from the wall without tripping your circuit. So that power budget um gets sort of doled out and metered.
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+[48:53] We can't use it all at once. Um right now, we're never actually driving the boiler at its full 1200 watts. Even when you've put in 100%, we've got it like tamed down a little bit. Uh but this is something we're testing right now in firmware updates to introduce basically a a control system, um uh a boiler and heating control algorithm specifically around this pure steaming scenario that we hope to ship out in the next uh couple weeks. Right.
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+[49:22] Yeah, okay, good. So like this might be fixed relatively soon. Because it's a killer app if it works. Yeah, yep, yep. Uh absolutely.
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+[49:30] Uh we By the way, your your your European version, does it have a lot higher wattage or no? Uh it's got a little bit higher wattage uh budget. So the US version is 1800 watts. That's the total budget we have to play with. Uh European version on 240 gives you 2400 watts.
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+[49:45] You ever consider giving me a separate plug plug into a separate circuit or just too much too complicated for the general general joke amount? Uh a little complicated for uh for our general audience here. However, some you know super savvy uh folks or people who are like they cook in their you know home lab uh that's a little less of a kitchen, more of a laboratory, uh will buy the European version because they've got 220 available and they want to take advantage of the extra power. Yeah, all right, cool. Uh let's get to some of the questions.
+
+[50:15] So from uh long time uh listener, friend of the show, and by the way, purchaser of equipment, Capri Sun. Please go over the current issues with the oven. Cracking tanks, warped pans, steam generator gasket. What's the uh issue? What's the solution and time frame?
+
+[50:29] I'm close to purchasing, seems great. I love the price point, but all a bit concerned about long-term durability, past a two-year warranty. Yeah, everyone hates your pans, but you know what? It's like almost like you have to include it. It's like you don't care about it, you had to include it, right?
+
+[50:41] You want people to go out and buy their own pans pretty much, it seems. Well, the pan was a big mistake. Um, so it turns out that uh making a pan that doesn't warp at high temperature uh is hard. Uh and the world's solution to this problem is to use a lot more metal, right? So you can go buy like Chicago Metallics makes uh fabulous pans that don't warp at high temperature, but they use a lot of steel.
+
+[51:10] And if you've been paying attention to the price of steel lately, like they might as well be made of gold. And so there was a late breaking change just before we went to mass production to switch sort of how our pan looked and felt, and it slipped in before we could fully test it. And so a bunch of customers, basically our first batch of customers, received this super flimsy flat pan that when you got it too hot, uh not too hot, when you got it you know in the upper temperature ranges of the oven would warp and it would make a popping sound, and it was it was really awful. Everybody, yeah. The oven itself also makes a pa-pump sound when after you open and close it.
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+[51:46] You want to describe what that is? Uh some of that is our uh uh our valve. So we've got an overpressure valve so that we don't actually accidentally turn the oven into a steam pressure cooker. Uh and that controls whether steam is staying in the cavity or is being exhausted out uh in the front port. So sometimes you'll hear a clunk there.
+
+[52:04] Uh you'll also occasionally hear a little clunk, you know, these are sort of subtle things, uh, when we are dosing the boiler or the wet mold. We've got valves in the back of the oven that are going boop boom uh open and closed just momentarily there. Anyway, regarding the pan, um uh we stopped shipping that pan and instead shipped uh a different pan that doesn't warp. Unfortunately, that pan is not perfectly flat across the bottom. It's got these little it's ribbed.
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+[52:30] Um I don't like rib pans, I have to say, Scott, I hate ribbed pans. Me too. Uh I I am not a fan, but it is our stop gap uh for the moment. Anyone who received the original flimsy pan, email support, and we'll get you a better pan for now. But we're just good support.
+
+[52:44] I like that. Hear that? That's like that's like John level support right there, right, John? Yes, it is. Thank you.
+
+[52:49] Yeah. So we've been we've been sending out pans galore to anybody who asked for one. Uh who can I have that word going through my head. Use galore, you know where I'm going with it anyway. Okay.
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+[53:02] I haven't heard this one. Uh, what's going on there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh, you know, I mentioned combi ovens are complicated, and this is this is uh a V1 product. We're very proud of it, but we discovered a bunch of stuff that we're working hard to do with it.
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+[53:15] First of all, what's the tank made out of? Is it Triton? Yes, uh, it's Triton. So it's uh it's uh very fancy plastic that would be used in your like high-end outdoor plastic wine glasses, like that kind of thing. Ooh, high-end plastic wine glasses.
+
+[53:29] Nastasia, can you hear that? High-end plastic. Occasions. Um the reason that we use tri like yellow yellowtail approved plastic wine glasses, am I right? Uh-huh.
+
+[53:44] Um, you gotta get yellowtail to sponsor us. We've called them out some. I know we insult them, but like, all right. We tried to just get all the merlot so that we could get our friends to jello wrestle in it, but you know, I don't know, whatever. I'm I'm picturing like uh uh like Ina Garden with uh like a uh a pastel sweater draped over her shoulders, drinking white wine out of our oven tank uh uh on the beach.
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+[54:06] Um so it's that it's that kind of fancy. Um and we chose that because it is uh a food safe plastic. It's uh BPA free. Um so they say I use it as well, so I'm not saying anything. But yes.
+
+[54:19] Sure. Okay, here's the problem. Made by the Eastman Corporation, in case you guys care. Um when we are venting steam uh out of the oven, so whether you're you're cooking in a high steam mode or you're just cooking something that has a lot of water in it, like chicken wings, and we're driving that water off. Shaking wings, yep, go ahead.
+
+[54:38] That steam vents out part of the oven, and there's this little gap between the wall of the oven and where the tank sits. And that gap experiences thermal stresses. If it's hot, it cools off. It gets hot, it cools off. Those thermal stresses cause fissures in this triton material of the tank.
+
+[54:55] So these are these are tiny little cracks that are actually internal to the material. So almost, almost never will water leak out of those cracks. But like if you've had any of these, you know, fancy backyard plastic wine glasses uh that maybe you've put through the dishwasher and you've noticed they've developed these little fissures inside in the standard. You might want to call that crazing and not cracks, because no one thinks that crazing is going to go all the way through. Right.
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+[55:17] This is crazing. That's that is exactly the right word for it, unless uh you know, unless it's happened to you, in which case you're gonna call it a crack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh so this is this has happened to the tank. Um, it does not uh in almost all cases, the structural integrity of the tank is just fine, but it shouldn't happen, right?
+
+[55:36] You you you spent good money on this oven, you want it to look beautiful, you want it to behave right. This shouldn't happen. Um problem is there are very, very few materials that can withstand these thermal stresses and are food safe and are clear. Well, why is that so that's another but the issue is also like for those of you that can picture an oven like a black, like like uh Darth Vadery, it's definitely this was built by the Empire for sure. Like it's it's not a rebel oven, it's built by the Empire.
+
+[56:04] And if you look in the lower right corner when you're at steam, it's pumping steam like the little engine that could out of that lower right corner, right? To the extent that, like, you know, Dax and Jen were like, is it supposed to do that? And I'm like, yes, it's supposed to, it's fine. It's fine. But you have to tell people it's fine because otherwise they think it's not, right?
+
+[56:26] Yep. Yep. There's a definitely a user expectation, uh uh sort of understanding around, you know, steam's gonna come out. And in fact, like your built-in oven at home when you're uh cooking at high temperature with something's got a lot of water in it, it's driving off a ton of steam too, except that that steam is spread out over a very large area. So by the time it is visible uh, you know, uh fog wherever it's entering your kitchen, it's so diffuse that you don't really see it and notice it.
+
+[56:55] In our case, in this oven, it's much more concentrated, and so it it looks like uh, you know, you could froth your latte in that part of the oven. All right, so there's no so like it's just it shouldn't happen, but you don't really have a fix for it, but it's not actually gonna cause a problem, but you understand why it ticks people off. That's right. And uh if it bothers you, uh email support and we'll send you a new tank. Um, but uh just understand that that new tank is not a long-term fix yet.
+
+[57:20] We're still trying to find the right material that's gonna withstand uh these thermal stresses. And what's what what is what are you saying? What are the problems with the steam generator gasket? Are they are you talking about the actual blip bloop? Because you use a when I say blip bloop, for those of you that ever had a um like uh a humidifier, there's a there's a little, there's a little megilla at the bottom of your tank that allows you to remove the tank without it spilling all over the floor and yet still be gravity fed.
+
+[57:46] So I'm gonna call that a bloop bloop. Is that what they're talking about? Is that the problem people are having? Uh no, uh, we've had uh a very small number of users. Uh so in the middle of the floor of the oven uh is a stainless steel disc.
+
+[57:58] Uh that's the evaporator plate. So it's part of um part of our method of steam generation and to use less water total, uh excess moisture that condenses in the cavity pools up in the middle of the floor of the oven, and then we have a separate heater right there to boil that back off and put it back into the air of the oven. And that plate has a rubberized gasket around it. And in some cases, for reasons that we don't totally understand yet, maybe people uh had placed hands directly on the floor of the oven captured too much heat, we don't really know. Uh in some for some users, those gaskets um started to uh separate or come away.
+
+[58:38] Um it, you know, it's not really a leak concern uh for most cases in the oven. The other thing to note is that um in the US and and to be deployed throughout the rest of the world, uh we actually do in-home repair service uh for this. So sometimes uh, you know, if the oven's just totally kaput, we'll just exchange it for a new one for you. Um you mail it to us and we mail you a new one. But if it's uh an issue, a repairable issue or something that we can identify uh from the symptoms, we'll actually send an electrolyx technician to your house and they'll make the fixes for you.
+
+[59:13] Well, all right. Uh that's the advantage of working with a big company. By the way, I got a bunch of sesame seeds caught under mine. So I just used the uh, I just gently used a bamboo skewer to get it off. Is that kosher or not kosher?
+
+[59:23] Totally works. Uh if it were a teak skewer, you we'd have problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Uh all right, Johnny Baseball writes in: uh, do you think the ANOVA precision oven?
+
+[59:32] And by the way, the the forums, they call it just the APO. They call it the APO. Yeah. Uh do you think that the uh APO would be good for frozen burritos? Yes.
+
+[59:43] Yes. Absolutely. Asking for a friend. Sure, Johnny. Sure, Johnny, you're asking for a friend.
+
+[59:44] Yeah. Do you think the APO would be good when my girlfriend left me and uh and I'm crying into my frozen food? Yes, it's good for that too. Or it's 4 a.m. and I had a different kind of delivery, and I need something that's out of my freezer, maybe.
+
+[1:00:05] Yes. This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based customers into your doors with easy to use just egg.
+
+[1:00:26] You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U.st slash H R N. Made from plants, Just Egg is a better egg for you and for the planet. It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable.
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+[1:00:42] Just egg uses less water and generates fewer carbon emissions. Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J-U.st slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu.
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+[1:01:02] It's available as a liquid scramble. Great for omelets, frittatas, stir fries, and French toast. There's also frozen, pre baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads. Chef Jose Andres called Just Egg mind blowing. And Bonapet says, so good, I feel guilty eating it.
+
+[1:01:24] Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.st slash H R N. Dale Harris writes in, hey, uh combi ovens generally, Innova in particular for bread or pastry, as a coffee uh so this person also basically Dale Harris uh is uh is like a world champion barista, recommends the nine barista machine, says it's nicely in which is from last show. It's that it's that kind of cool espresso concept where they um again I've never touched one in the real life where you uh they generate the heat and the pressure, legitimately generate the pressure, and then use a heat exchanger to drop the the temperature of the heated liquid back uh before they put it through the thing. Says it makes uh legit espresso, and as a world champion barista, I guess he would know.
+
+[1:02:10] But uh he's asking about combi ovens in general for bread and pastry, and I had uh somebody else wrote in a similar question, uh Aragost via Twitter. Every sourdough bread recipe, not just sourdough, Aragost, every like crusty bread recipe, agrees that baking breads need steam. If I have a steam oven, can I avoid using the pot plus lid method? How does steam help the formation of crust? Um I have uh those uh in there about bread and and pastry.
+
+[1:02:39] I'll you know, let you say I'll give you my two cents, you know, because again, I don't work for the company, so I'm you know theoretically I'm less biased. Uh I found that the results were indistinguishable from using a uh Dutch oven when um I used uh the what you guys recommend, which is a higher than uh what I would normally my normal recipe would be 450 degrees Fahrenheit on convection. Put a uh a Dutch oven in for about 45 minutes, uh allow it to fully heat, uh put it in uh uh that way. I use the convection just to speed up the heating of the of the iron, get it all up to temperature, and then put the loaf in. I cook for between 25 and 30 minutes at that, then remove the I do inverted cooking so then I remove the large part of the cloche.
+
+[1:03:26] It's not sitting in the Dutch oven anymore. And then another, probably depending on the loaf, 10 to 15 with the convection usually off. And nowadays I also then put it in the vacuum machine to freaking crustify the crust. Like the vacuum machine is my new favorite toy when I'm pulling bread out of the oven. Anyway, so that's my standard.
+
+[1:03:46] When I'm doing it in the ANOVA, I do what's your top 482? I do 482 with 100% steam for a half hour and then drop it to um and then drop it to probably 400 at 0% steam for the remainder of the bake. Is that what you guys recommend or no? Uh yeah, uh for you know, for a big crusty sourdough loaf, something like that. Now, of course, your uh times and temperatures will vary based on the characteristics of your dough and sugar content and the way you proof and all this kind of stuff.
+
+[1:04:17] Uh uh the nice thing is you've got like total adjustability. You set those parameters however you want. Um Dutch ovens are great, right? They produce great bread, no question uh about it. But one of the challenges is that it is it is in a lot of ways black box baking.
+
+[1:04:35] Uh so if if something goes wrong, if you don't get a great result, like you know, if you're whatever, you your ear doesn't open the right way or you're gonna blow out or something like that. It's really hard to debug and diagnose because you're only seeing the bread at that snapshot in time once you've removed the the uh the top uh off that Dutch oven or the or the bottom in your case with with inverted uh Dutch oven baking. It is amazing how much information you get about what's going on when you can watch the whole bake through the glass of the door. And you can you can see, you know, in slow motion, but a lot of people will point their time-lapse cameras at it. Uh, the way that you get your initial oven spring, or the way that uh your score is unfolding to reveal the ear or the rate at which the crust is browning and all this kind of stuff, um, is super super useful for identifying like what's going on or what's going wrong.
+
+[1:05:26] So uh so it's fabulous for that, but it's also a case that like uh baguettes are a little challenging to do inside a Dutch oven. And so the versatility uh that you can do we partnered with baking steel um uh out of Massachusetts uh to develop a uh a steel slab that's sized for this oven. Uh and you put it in on the rack, uh preheat it, uh, and it gives you a lot of the characteristics that you get from a deck oven. So direct steam injection, and now this like really nice hot uh reservoir of thermal energy uh for under your baking. Um by the way, if you if you guys, I'm not trying to say anything against like go go get the fancy one that's all food grade stuff, but you can also just get 12 by 12 sheets of steel like for like nothing.
+
+[1:06:16] Nothing. Like anyway, um but well, just to show you about like kind of like the benefits and the by the way, it also works well to proof. Um, but uh, you know, so the issue, the only issue with it was the the quality of it was was great. And I think the reason that you stick it at 482 is it takes about ooh, it takes like 25 minutes to heat up to 100% steam and uh 482 degrees Fahrenheit. That's the I only have so much power coming out of the wall phenomenon.
+
+[1:06:46] And once you have the moisture and you're making that steam and you're heating it up, it takes a good long time to get up there, right? So like that's what and that's why I think you want to heat your temperature up a lot higher than you necessarily normally would for your normal cast iron bakery, because when you put that loaf in, right, and by the way, for me the big advantage of this is I detest manipulating that freaking 450-degree uh Dutch oven. I hate having to open and close everything a million times. I hate the fact that when I do the inversion into the Dutch oven, I get sesame seeds and wheat bran everywhere. I don't flat I hate the whole thing.
+
+[1:07:23] I hate all of it except for the results, right? Uh whereas this, you know, you're over by your sink, you you you do it on parchment, you load the parchment in on a peel, you don't burn yourself, you're not worried. That all I appreciate. But uh the reason you can think you go up to like such a high temperature is because the temperature immediately drops to about 400 degrees and then comes back up. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:07:44] 4004 20. So you get a big drop because remember what I told you guys, you're not taking a lot of power out of the wall. You have uh a relatively low emissivity, i.e., shiny. You have a uh uh a shiny oven, and so it doesn't store a lot of its own energy. So And then we've got a we've got an energy hungry piece of wet dough uh sitting in the oven that uh that you know we're trying to transmit as much energy uh as quickly as possible into the surface of that loaf uh once it hits the oven, so you get great oven spraying.
+
+[1:08:19] And there is where steam, uh, real steam is a real benefit, because that steam carries the latent heat of vaporization, so it's it acts like an energy battery and can deposit tremendous amounts of energy really fast onto the surface of the bread. Yeah. It's also this. I think really good strangely for sometimes like later in the bake, stopping stuff from drying out when it needs to go longer because the inside's not done, but the outside's done. I mean, uh, anyway, so I think, yeah, I mean, I haven't fully sussed it out, but I think uh I haven't fully sussed it out, but I think you know, there's a lot more for me to learn.
+
+[1:09:00] I've only been using it. And the good news is about the uh well, the good and the bad news about uh the application, right? Is that you have a bunch of people who have done recipes. Now I'll talk about some recipes I've tried. I've done your bacon, I did your bacon 101 recipe.
+
+[1:09:14] Uh it's it's good. You do need to dry it out a little bit. I think I will I go a little bit on the longer side, but for those of you that have again use parchment. I wouldn't use the pan that comes with it. I would put your bacon into a uh black or an enamel pan, something that has uh high emissivity, because it's gonna give you kind of a uh a crispier result.
+
+[1:09:36] Um I did actually I did your chicken, but I cheated, Scott. Uh huh. Uh I I didn't have time to let it dry. Who the hell has all these recipes on your website take like three days because of the pre prep on it? Who the hell has time?
+
+[1:09:49] You guys have a dehydrate function. Why not just dehydrate the freaking chicken in the oven before you uh do it? That's what I did. I just threw it in the oven at a hundred degrees on dehydrate for like 45 minutes to tack out the skin before I did the roast cycle. That works too.
+
+[1:10:04] Uh that works too. I, you know, I like to let my chicken sleep on it uh in the fridge just to break up the prep and it makes me look like a clean kitchen hero when I'm making dinner the next day. Yeah, all right, fine. By the way, the recipe, if you if you make the recipe, if you've never had the full like combi sous-vieed combination chicken thing, it's real wet. So some people love it and some people don't.
+
+[1:10:29] It's a very wet bird. And by that I mean the meat hasn't like lost a lot of its juices, which sounds great, but it's not great for everyone. It is perfectly cooked. And and Wes Hendrickson says, can you do Delta uh Delta T low temp with the probe? Absolutely.
+
+[1:10:44] And it's really good at switching over modes once the probe hits what it wants, which is how I did it with the chicken. Uh, but just be aware that that that's an issue. Now, the downside of that freaking thing, and I can't figure it out, and I was hoping you could help me is I'm an old guy. This is why I ask you about third-party things, right? I'm old school, right?
+
+[1:11:04] So I like to F with things in the middle of a cook. Yep. So, like, and it's not clear to me if you have a three-step cook lined up, it's like if you're the kind of person that doesn't care about it, like doing you press go, it does all three steps, and you're good, right? But if I want to adjust the middle step, I find it hard to figure out whether I've accurately adjusted the middle step or not. I wish I could have a third-party box that just had all the literal knobs.
+
+[1:11:29] I'm such a knob guy. You know what I mean? Where I could just tweak tweak the knobs. I mean, I know this is a software thing, and so it can change at any time, but do you have other people who have issues with figuring out whether they've changed the settings properly? Yes.
+
+[1:11:41] Uh it's it's a place that we're trying to actively improve. Um we, you know, there's this balance between like power and simplicity. Uh and we veered in the direction of power, basically, complexity, uh, making sure that that if you wanted to approach this like an engineer, you've got all the controls available. So you can do what you're describing. You can change the values in the middle of the cook.
+
+[1:12:06] And in fact, even in a multi-stage thing where you just hit go, at any part of the stage, you can walk right up to the oven and tap the temperature button and change it, or change your temperature. Right, but I can never figure out exactly because it doesn't then like like the app doesn't say you've changed the middle setting. Are you cool with that? Yeah, that's what actually what I wanted to have happen. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:12:24] Yep, uh, completely understand. So we're uh we're working on improvements to what that UX is like to really make it clearer uh what you're changing, what you're interacting with. The power is all there right now, but it's not as usable as it ought to be. Yeah, it's not clear to me exactly what's happening. And I like to I like especially with cooking, it's like, you know, like the yes chef phenomenon.
+
+[1:12:46] You want your oven to say yes chef, you know what I mean? Yeah, to let you know that it has uh, but again, that's a that that that that's that's a software thing. So now on the other side, a couple of things because Matt's gonna rip me off uh of the air. Oh, someone wants to know Yemble writes in what can't it do that a full-size oven can, two dozen cookies, a decent size scratch pizza. It can do a decent sized pizza.
+
+[1:13:08] Uh yeah, you can fit a 12-inch pizza. We had people doing 15-pound turkeys uh last Thanksgiving. Uh, you know, almost everything. Maybe if you want to do like a whole king salmon, then you're out of luck. Yeah, you can you could do a tall cheesecake unless it's really big.
+
+[1:13:22] And by the way, uh is if you don't mind oblong pizzas, it's basically 17 by 12 is the inside uh platform. So and you can get a good size steel. Uh, uh it's 16 and three quarters by like a steel that will fit easily. Yes, yeah. And so, like, it's roughly anything that's under 17, 12, you're gonna get in there.
+
+[1:13:42] And so, like, uh, that's pretty big pizza if you can go lengthwise. Um, two dozen cookies. I mean, uh, it doesn't fit a full sheet rack, it fits like a jelly roll pan. So anything you can fit on two jelly rolls, it's kind of the things that are difficult for me to buy is I can't get a decent black pan for like someone makes a Detroit pizza pan that'll fit, but it's like $70. So stupid.
+
+[1:14:02] Why the hell does it cost that much freaking money? I'm thinking of spray painting the by the way, for those of you that care, don't do this because it's not food grade. But it doesn't matter. The the color of the pan that's touching the food doesn't matter. It's the color of the pan that's facing the oven that matters.
+
+[1:14:17] So uh if you're doing pan pizza, so you can just spray paint the bottom of your pan as long as you don't let the paint touch your food. And as long as you get a paint that's not gonna rub off on your oven. But I didn't tell you to do that because it's not a good idea. Anyway, um, one of the things that first literally the first thing I tried was toast because Dax and Jen both came in and were like, what? I just want to make toast.
+
+[1:14:40] Yeah, now that I'm gonna have to go ahead and put it this way. Like, you might want to, if you're using this to replace a toaster oven, you might just want to get a toaster to sit next to it. Now, Scott, the eight-minute toast, it it's fine. By the way, you guys familiar, John, Anastasia, Matt, you familiar with the $300 Balmuda toaster, $400 Balmuda toaster. Makes like one, it's a Japanese toaster, makes one slice of toast at a time, maybe two.
+
+[1:15:10] Uh one American slice of bread and two of those little milk milk toast bread. And it's a steam toaster, and all it does is make toast. And it takes a while to do it, but it went crazy, and people bought all of these several hundred dollar, like relatively large for the amount of, I mean, really large for the amount of toy toast it can make, toasters, right? You can buy them in the MoMA design store. And every and uh a couple years ago when they first started getting popular on the internets, people were like, Dave, is this steamed toast a thing?
+
+[1:15:37] And I was like, I don't know. I'm not gonna spend $400 to figure out whether or not I like this, you know, fancy Japanese toaster or not. Uh and but the the good news is if you want to try fancy Japanese toast, the uh, you know, uh they've written, uh I forget it wasn't you, Scott, it was someone else at ANOVA wrote a uh uh a toast recipe to mimic the Balmuda uh toast uh procedure. And I'm here to tell you folks it's fine. Like it's fine.
+
+[1:16:08] Yeah are are you gonna be like, oh my god, I need to wait eight minutes for toast because this toast is the most toastiest mctoast of all toast on the toast lands. No, it is fine. Uh and so uh there you have it. Uh, you know, i if what you want is to wake up in the morning and you're extremely bleary-eyed, uh, and you don't want to pick up your phone, might want to have a good old-fashioned four-sliced toaster sitting next to it. Just saying.
+
+[1:16:35] I hope that's not insulting you, Scott, but I'm just saying that if you have the room, might want a toaster. This is not a toaster oven, people. It is not a toaster oven. Yeah, that is fair feet, fair feedback. Yeah.
+
+[1:16:47] Uh did I miss anything, John or Nastasia? No. No. No. Anyway, so uh you guys can stop asking me about the uh ANOVA precision oven because we have now told you probably more than you want to know.
+
+[1:17:06] Although uh you can ask questions later about uh combis in general or why you would want them, uh why you would use them. Oh, I talked about the toast. Any other weird uh things that people try, like uh cult recipe, Scott, on the way out? Uh grilled cheese actually has a cult following. Uh uh uh on a griddle in the oven uh and then using the steam to get that cheese super melty throughout, and so you get fluffy bread, crispy outsides, and fully melted cheese.
+
+[1:17:34] Yeah, one last thing on the way out. Like I know I said this, but if you're if you're okay, so like I have a lot of gas in my apartment, and not just from you know the family members. I mean, like we have a lot of gas. I have very high output equipment, right? But uh ever since I had you know a good uh controlled induction burner, I use that a lot for holding and reheating like liquids and braises.
+
+[1:17:58] And I have a feeling that I'm gonna be using this one a lot for hot holding. It definitely beats the piss out of anything I've used for hot holding and reheating. Um if you are the kind of person who's like me who likes control, like you have to assess your family members and you have to talk to your family members about it. And like I say, like if they're the kind of people that want to get up and make toast, you might want to buy them a toaster oven because uh how many people out there can afford to have a toaster oven and one of these sitting on your counter? Who has that much counter space?
+
+[1:18:29] I I know I don't. But uh so I hope we've given you the pluses, the minuses, the drawbacks. Uh hopefully, you know, Scott, you enjoyed coming on talking about it. We appreciate it. Uh all of your non combi uh related uh questions we'll get to uh next week on uh oh, was there anything else we was there anything else we uh missed, John that we needed to talk about?
+
+[1:18:51] No. On the way out, listen to this people. We'll talk about it more next time. In my neighborhood, crab restaurants and the new thing, crabs everywhere. Nastasia, do you have any new crab restaurants up in Connecticut?
+
+[1:19:01] They're popping up everywhere. I don't know what's going on. It's takeover of the crabs. There are four new crab restaurants in my neighborhood. I need people to discuss why are crabs.
+
+[1:19:10] Crabs are the new poke. What's going on with that? Also, if anyone cares, Passover's coming up. Uh and when I was uh when when Booker was a small kid, everyone on our floor had a mazuza on the on their door except for us because we were the only people who weren't orthodox on our floor. And the mazuza's the little the little scroll with a prayer on the door that you put on every door at the angle if you've ever seen them.
+
+[1:19:33] And so we went and we bought one. Uh I I went to the, you know, the the local, you know, the uh religious item shop, and I was like, hey, you know, uh, is it offensive if we buy this mazuza and put it on our door, we're not Jewish. My son just, you know, we feel left out on the floor because everyone else has it, and you know, he who wants one on the door. Is it cool? And the guy was like, yeah, sure, I don't care.
+
+[1:19:54] It's cool, fine, buy it. So we bought it and we put it up. And we sold that apartment, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. But I went and uh a local group of Lebovichers who are, you know, doing outreach put a whole bunch of uh fancy schmura matzah on the on the at our at our old doorstep and we were visiting, and the Shmuramatza is the one where like they make it by hand, they they they literally see it from the minute the wheat is grown to make sure that it never gets leavened. It's like the most overlooked matza in the world.
+
+[1:20:25] And I feel like we won like all these years later, I get payback because I get the free, awesome fancy matzah. So as soon as we saw it, because we went and visited, you know, my sister in law lives there now. We're like, fancy Matza, Mazuza, yes, cooking issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:20:47] Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradio network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:21:04] Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage.
+
+[1:21:26] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at Ferguson Home.com.
+
+[0:29] My name is Samantha Garner, and I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm a Cheeselandian because I take cheese seriously just like they do in Wisconsin. Go to Cheeselandia.com to learn more. And if it's for you, sign up. This week on Meet and Three, we're talking about the United States' biggest crop.
+
+[0:48] It's corn. They will always tell you that corn is like their family. Corn is their family. You treat corn like you would treat your family. These subsidy programs are supposed to be for really dealing with unexpected things that happen to farmers.
+
+[1:05] Although in practice, a lot of times farmers are actually paid farm subsidies for things that we can control and do expect. Tune in to Meet and Three available wherever you get your podcasts. And today is your birthday. What's up, hey? How old are you, Dave?
+
+[2:03] 50 years closer to the box. No. Listen. Yeah, yeah. By the way, in case this is the first time any of you is hearing this, we also have we got Matt in his Rhode Island Heidi Hole.
+
+[2:19] We got Nastasia on the beautiful Long Island Sound. And we got uh John's back in the in the great city of New York in his Murray Hill ensconcement, right? That's right. Yeah, yeah. Yep.
+
+[2:30] Yeah. So John has what would have been like a cool I've never actually seen his apartment, so I'm making this all up. But like I think it's nice in that he has some sort of like outdoor roof access, except for the majority of time that he was there during the COVID, they were doing asbestos and b uh uh abatement. So he was like sealed into a loud bubble of uh of asbestos. Is that true?
+
+[2:51] Well, I wasn't sealed in a bubble with asbestos, I was sealed in a bubble to protect me from the asbestos. Yeah, it was really miserable. I had no natural light coming in for a lot of the early days, early months of COVID. It was really depressing. He's like, sweet, I have like my own like almost like little outdoor space, and I'm like way up high, I can see everything, and then and then all of a sudden, oh wait, we're plastering over your windows, and brr.
+
+[3:16] For any of you that have never lived in New York, one of the joys of New York is the hammer drilling that like makes it through every corner of every building here, right? Yep. It's horrible. Oh, the hammering. It feels like it's in your head, in your mouth, you know.
+
+[3:32] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know what the miracle of hammer drilling is? Is that especially with like uh New York City concrete style buildings, is that like let's say you are the hammer driller. No one in the building can figure out exactly where you are because it's loud everywhere.
+
+[3:48] Yeah, like travels through the whole building. It's crazy, you know? I don't know. Whatever. Uh yeah.
+
+[3:55] 50 50 years uh what did you do? When? Well, for you well, this weekend, last night. I so I sent Dave some champagne. It's my birthday tonight.
+
+[4:05] I sent Dave some champagne last night to drink on the show. Well, to drink half of it last night and then half on the show, which was what the message said. And uh apparently your 16-year-old son received it. Yeah, yeah. So like that's true to New York, true to New York style.
+
+[4:23] A man, like I'm I'm on like, you know, one of you know how like now that like with Zoom, like people assume that you can zoom at any hour of the day or night. So I'm on an actual like meeting at like uh like eight for for my other son Booker, and um Dax here's a ding dong, goes over, dude. Just hands a bottle of bubbly to my 16-year-old. He could have been party, like he couldn't even have well now you know. Well now he knows.
+
+[4:53] The Lancy wants to be able to do that. Yeah, do we wanna do we want to shout out the company so that all the 16-year-olds on an underage party? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think the limit is? Like, will they roll a keg in and just hand it to a 16-year-old?
+
+[5:08] I think we'll do anything. Let's just see how well you guys remember uh home alone. This is Dave Arnold, the father. And then you call them in an order that way, and they'll just like roll booze, and that's what Macaulay Culkin was like. This is the father.
+
+[5:23] When he was like uh calling for his uh whatever his room service in Home Alone 2 when he was in the hotel at the plaza. No memories. All right. Uh so what did you do? Well, so on uh Saturday night was uh when I went out with uh with Jen uh and we went to Keynes.
+
+[5:43] First time ever, first time indoor eating the for the whole pandemic. I have to do that. How was the experience indoors? I mean, it was it was good. It was great.
+
+[5:53] They had spit guards up between the tables. So it was like eating out. First of all, like I've said on the show many times, quote unquote outdoor eating here in New York is not, in fact, out outdoors. People build like uh garages, and then you eat inside of this garage and or greenhouse with spit guards between you and the next person. So it's it's it's outdoor in name only, right?
+
+[6:17] So Jen was a little nervous, and she there was we're next to a window, but we opened the window and uh and so she felt better, but it's great. I'd never been in with all those pipes. So, like, for those of you that've never been to Keene's famous steakhouse, known for its uh mutton, uh mutton chops, which I had, Jen did not have the mutton chop. Uh, you know, and uh it was very very good. The sort of m the way the mutton chop works, for those of you that like are like asking first of all, it didn't taste super old.
+
+[6:45] It was just not lamb anymore, right? So it wasn't like super young, right? But it didn't taste like it was like a five-year-old thing. It just tasted like kind of like a like a beefier lamb. But the fun thing about it is it looks like someone handed the butcher like a whole sheep, and then they were just like, I don't know, and they put the sheep on a bandsaw and were like neep neep because you have like the ribb bone goes right through the center of it, and then you have the two chops to the side of the rib bone and then you have the flap of meat all the way around to the belly and they just cook the whole damn thing.
+
+[7:21] So I mean you know maybe it started as laziness and turned into a thing who knows so you didn't like it. No I loved it. That was great. And then on the ceiling they have all these clay pipes like you know like like uh like uh colonial Williamsburg style clay pipes you know I'm talking about Stas? Yes I've been there.
+
+[7:36] Oh did you like it? Yeah I've been there yeah I used we used to go to the bar a lot. Oh yeah I hear they have great cocktails. I didn't have a cocktail when I was there. You know what's weird?
+
+[7:45] I lived two blocks from there for five years and I never went. I guess we didn't have any money when I was there. Yeah I mean it's expensive. Yeah but so like uh so not that we have money now boom especially well we'll get into it with the with the Amazon stuff. Uh so like so like but for those of you never been like on the ceiling is all of these like like colonial Williamsburg pipes like hanging from little hooks with numbers on them.
+
+[8:10] So up until 1978 you could become a member and then you would have your pipe and you would smoke it and then at the front they have like a bunch of these pipes like with the names of the people underneath it. So of course like Douglas MacArthur the general of course because he was like such a vain D-bag his pipe was all ornamented like you couldn't just have a plain pipe like everyone else but like right to the right of of MacArthur's pipe and up one in the display Rube Goldberg's pipe. Rube Goldberg's pipe and so I'm sitting there like cracking wise like I always do I'm like hey Rube Goldberg has a plain pipe what's up with that and then the guy literally without missing a beat. The uh the guy at the front was like, Yeah, but you should have seen the contraption we had to use to get it off of the ceiling. And I was like, boom, boom, boom, boom.
+
+[8:53] I love it. I love anyone. First of all, I didn't like you don't even think of Rube Goldberg as a real guy. You know what I mean? Uh-huh.
+
+[8:59] Do you do you think of Rube Goldberg as a real guy? Uh you mean because the name sounds crazy? No, because he's like a thing. It's like a Rube Gold. Yeah.
+
+[9:07] It's a Rube Goldberg, this, it's a Rube Goldberg, that. It's not like, you know, Dr. Seuss, I think of as a real author, Rube Goldberg. I don't think of as a real person. I definitely don't think of him eating mutton and smoking a pipe and pounding cocktails.
+
+[9:18] You know what I mean? I definitely I failed to realize it was, you know, it was named after some guy walking around building contraption. I b well I believe he was a cartoonist. I believe his stock and trade was a cartoonist. And he was maybe two levels above the family circus guy, which for anyone who remembers comics, Family Circus is just like I don't even know why that thing existed.
+
+[9:38] Uh okay, so you went there, then what else? I went there. Well, I mean, you know, whatever. That was Saturday, Sunday. Uh oh, well, my my uh my mother-in-law sent me a incredible cheese selection from Jasper Hills, and actually it like I've like it's literally called the baller cheese box.
+
+[9:55] Get it? Cheese ball, ball box, cheese baller box. Anyway, so it's like it's like it's this giant box of mostly Jasper Hill with other stuff like cabot, and it it's like all semi-eco-packed, so like wood shavings instead of plastic on the inside. And uh, so we've had cheese for days. I I baked some bread.
+
+[10:13] My wife uh just got me the uh the como. I now have a Como Mio mill, so like you know, Nastasia can hear about milling for the next you know million years. I got some new wheat in the Sassi, you'll be glad to know. Some new soft wheat, some new corn. Who got you that?
+
+[10:29] I bought the wheat and corn. My wife bought me the mill, I bought the wheat and corn. What do you doing? I just got a new Detroit style pizza pan. I don't know.
+
+[10:35] Dax is cooking. I thought I was gonna cook. I was like literally like, I was like, all right, time to grind the flower, I'll make some stuff, and then Jen's like, by the way, Dax has dinner tonight. And like I'm like happy but nervous a little too. Why?
+
+[10:50] Well, who cares? It's one day. Like one. No, no, not about the food. It's like I wonder what the kitchen's gonna look like afterwards.
+
+[10:56] It's like when Booker, uh yeah, when Booker, you know, Booker quote unquote, you know, when Booker bakes, it's like, you know, the kitchen is like I have a large sink. I have a large sink, people at fifty. You should hire somebody to clean the kitchen once for your birthday after your son cooked. Yeah, birthday, gifts. Birthday.
+
+[11:15] Yeah. All I'm saying is this. My like the rule that I like to have is that uh if if if I kneel down with my eyes level to the sink, I don't want to see dishes above that eye line. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[11:28] Like that's the that's the goal. Uh tomorrow, uh, the Booker and Dax crew were all uh we're gonna go out. We are where we where are we going? Uh John. Racine downtown.
+
+[11:40] But it's not named after Racine, Wisconsin. Uh all right, and uh this weekend I'm going, I'm going up to Connecticut. So it's a fun-filled birthdayslash almost Easter time, right? Is it when's Easter? Is it this weekend or the next weekend or the weekend after that?
+
+[11:57] I don't like Easter. Why don't you like Easter? What's it's what's with Easter? I don't know. I mean, it's very religious.
+
+[12:03] Well, only if you're religious, otherwise it's a it's another good meal to have with the family. And an excuse to dye eggs. Yeah, you know what dyed some eggs. Do you know or yeah? How are they?
+
+[12:14] Uh they're great, you know. Depending on the color, it seeps through a little bit, but uh it's a good time. Do you know what Nastasia Lopez introduced me to? And there's still time people. And they're gonna get a dollar ninety-nine at Michael's right now.
+
+[12:27] I saw that. I bought a couple. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Cascarones, Nastasia Lopez introduced me to the joys of smashing an eggshell on your friends' heads.
+
+[12:38] I think I do it too hard though. I'm sure you do. I mean, I do it real hard. Are you gentle or do you do it real hard? Listen to this.
+
+[12:45] I went to Michaels, they are having the Easter sale, which was fifty percent off, right? Every everyone everyone loves Michaels, by the way, we're a Michaels crew here. We like Michaels. So everything Easter was fifty percent off. So I got the Star Wars Easter eggs because my friends with babies are coming over to Easter egg hunt.
+
+[13:01] So I got the Star Wars Easter eggs, but those rang up regular price. And I said to the lady, these are Easter eggs, they should be fifty percent off like everything Easter. And she said, Nope. And I said, But it says Easter eggs on here. And she said, They're not Easter.
+
+[13:19] And then I said, Well, I better see them at Christmas. And I left This is a very Nastasia story. I enjoy it. Yeah, I know you didn't know. Wow.
+
+[13:30] I mean, what you know, and you know why, because they were Disney and like Disney does not give discounts. So yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
+
+[13:42] Yeah. That's uh but yeah, but like but like Thank God you played hardball with your local Michaels. You gotta show them who's boss. They are literally Easter though, so I don't get it. I don't get it either.
+
+[13:52] Like and also she didn't give an ex she just said no. Like Yeah, yeah. Yeah. F first of all, and like Nastasia's not one to let that kind of stuff drop. I mean, like, come on, come on, people.
+
+[14:03] Come on. I mean, like, you don't even need to know Nastasia. Like, it's like, if you say something to her, she's gonna put the look on her face. And you know, you know that you're not getting out of this on scale. That's some real crap.
+
+[14:13] That's some real crap. That's some that's filth, it's garbage. It should say except for Disney crap. Right. Like, if there's gonna be an exclusion, it should say except for Disney crap.
+
+[14:23] Yeah. Or it should say 50% off most Easter crap. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
+
+[14:28] Did your mom make those first cascarones that we had at the FCI? Or is she gonna uh I don't remember, but we've done both. I don't remember which ones those were. Okay, so people, if you've never had one of these, like again, this is one of the joys of life that Nastasia has introduced uh me to. Uh and she's had me make them too.
+
+[14:45] We never made them together though, did we? I don't think so. So you you you you you crack out the bottom of an egg, shake out the egg, use it for something else, or throw it away if you're a jamok, let it dry, fill it, like not fill it, but like put confetti in and then put crepe paper paper over the hole and then smack it over, you know, with with with omega. The best thing is is to introduce somebody to them by like pretending it's an egg, you know. You put them in the carton and then or they come in a carton and then you pretend it's a real egg, and then you're like, whoa, and then yeah.
+
+[15:15] Yeah, bam! Yeah, real messy. Ma'am, may I suggest doing it outside, unless you have someone coming over to clean up your birthday uh slash uh house because oh hey, did you hear this? Last time I was at Michael's, I didn't know this, but apparently glitter is canceled. Yeah, it's they said some racial slurs that glitter no apparently, like I don't know, glitter like Fs with I don't know, I don't know.
+
+[15:43] Like I I I went I was at a uh a store the other day and I was like, Do you have glitter? Because I needed it for a project that we're working on here. I need to I need to like motion track liquids, and so like I needed something that was shiny so I could see it moving around. I was like, Do you have glitter? And they looked at me like I had just like I had just like uh destroyed the entire environment.
+
+[16:02] They're like, no. We don't say that anymore. No. Do you have glitter? No, not anymore.
+
+[16:09] And I was like, oh geez. Alright, okay. Uh bye. You know, and then I ordered some online. Because I needed the glitter.
+
+[16:17] You know what I mean? I don't know. But have you heard this? Have any of you heard this? No, it's a big thing to use biodegradable glitter if you're using glitter nowadays.
+
+[16:25] But well, it doesn't really work in a snow globe, does it? You don't want your you don't want your biodegradable glitter degrading in your snow globe. But how how would a what a what a terror show that would be? Like, imagine like like if you imagine your little Santa figure like coming alive and be like, oh no, and like the goop and all this stuff like all over them, or like the Empire State Building being coated in biodegradable glitter goop. I mean, um too bad this isn't a this is your life show.
+
+[16:55] Yeah, well, that's uh you know, we'll do we'll do a different show, do a different show for that. By the way, in my family, and maybe one of you will use this at some point in in your life. Um, so you know, we're very kind of strict about when different things for sale come out in stores like holiday crap, the seasonal item in your local CVS and or right aid and or Walgreens and or whatever, wherever you have your do your your shopping for you know garbage. And um years and years ago, we still say it to this day, years and years ago, I walked in to a write aid in early February, and the Easter garbage was already out because I think it was an early Easter that year, and lady next to me goes, Easter, it ain't even Valentine's Over yet. And so we use that whenever anything comes out too early.
+
+[17:45] It's not Valentine. First of all, it's not St. Valentine's Day or Valentine's Day. It's the time of Valent. Valentine's over yet.
+
+[17:56] It ain't even Valentine's Over yet. Like that's we use that all the time. Whenever something comes out a little bit too early, a little bit too early. Oh, you know what another thing we did for the Easter slash uh spring season this year, Nastasia? We made again, and I haven't made it in, I'm gonna wanna say 20 years.
+
+[18:14] Panoramic Easter eggs. Love panoramic Easter eggs. You don't like panoramic Easter eggs? Not really. Wait, what?
+
+[18:23] What are you doing? What am I looking at if I'm looking at a panoramic Easter egg? A freaking bunny inside of the egg. Up like a like a didn't you have to make panorama boxes in grade school? No?
+
+[18:35] Oh, diorama. Dioramas, right? Well, they're called panoramic eggs. You look basically, it's like a sugar shell, it's like a sugar shell in the shape of an egg with a window and royal icing piped around it to like put the where you put the two halves of the eggs together together, and inside of it is like whatever. Like we have birds and fish.
+
+[18:57] One of the things that we've got. One, two, three, four, five, six. Made seven of them. May I just say, I haven't made them in many years. Like I said, I was gonna make them years ago, and I made the shells, but we never got around to decorating them, and then there was a leak, and then they got ruined, so I threw them away.
+
+[19:11] So Jen was like, we're gonna do it this year. Make the windows in the front a little bit bigger than you'd think. So what you do is you get an egg, you get an egg mold. Egg, oh, egg bold. I did that for any John Waters fans out there.
+
+[19:23] Oh, egg bold. Are you any of you guys John Waters people? No. No. Oh my god.
+
+[19:28] You've never seen any of the John Waters movies? Yeah. No. Okay. Jesus.
+
+[19:33] Go on. Okay. So you you it's a it's a it's a mix of like granulated sugar, powdered sugar, uh, egg white, right? And then you you make it into this coarse kind of sandy stuff, then you pack it into your into your egg mold halves, you unmold it onto like a piece of cardboard, you let it dry for like I'm gonna want the hard part, you gotta pack it in nice, or you get little divots and pock marks. You you let it dry for like a like 45 minutes hour, pick it up, and you scoop out the center, because the outside's firm, and then you let it dry for a couple of hours.
+
+[20:05] Oh, uh uh, you should also before it gets too dry, carve out the hole where the where the window's gonna be. And I would make that bigger than you possibly than you think, because it gets real dark inside of the egg. And then you know, do whatever you want. Jen decided this year that we weren't gonna go edible on the inside of the egg, so it's more like it's more like uh Swagnum Moss for stuff instead of just straight icing on the inside. But it's cool.
+
+[20:29] I like them. Dave, you know what I remembered? I threw your 40th birthday. Remember that? Oh my god, what a what a crapastical show that was.
+
+[20:37] Oh my god. Oh my god, that's all my finest work. Oh, geez, Luis. Like there was uh we were we had an intern called whose name was Dave Thomas, not Dave Thomas, the dead Wendy's hamburger guy. I don't remember.
+
+[20:54] So you do you remember this? So like there was this picture. So Dave Chang was there, and Nils and like a bunch, a bunch of people, right? Jeremy, Tom Chack, a bunch of like chefs were there, and you were like, Dave, get in the picture, and he's like, I'm Dave, and he jumps in, and we're like, all right. Remember that?
+
+[21:14] I was amazing. Yes. I had a picture's great. I cleaned up Fabulous's vomit at the end of the night. That was real bad.
+
+[21:25] It was a it was a rough, it was a rough night. It was a rough night. Rough night. Did anyone have the heart to tell Dave the intern that he wasn't the intended Dave? I think it was all right.
+
+[21:34] I think it was a yeah. Yeah. God, Dave. We were doing we were doing skulls. We were doing skulls that night.
+
+[21:42] Oh my god. The the best picture from that night is one like three quarters of the way in where we were still and like all like we're all wearing like suits. And like, but like the all of our ties are basically down. It's very it's very uh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:02] Yeah. Yeah. Good times, great oldies. Good times, great oldies. Um it's too bad that that's oh hello.
+
+[22:09] It's too bad. Oh wow. These birds are looking at me from outside. It's really weird. Well, are they birds or are they seagulls?
+
+[22:15] Burr sparrows. Um, okay, that's fine. If a seagull is staring at you in the face, you gotta you gotta go do go go lighthouse on them. If any of you have seen the movie uh the lighthouse, uh, there is a scene with a with a one-eyed seagull, and let me just say it does not end well. I was saying it's too bad we can't do a blowout party for your 50th this year.
+
+[22:36] I know a lot of things are too bad, but you know, we'll maybe we can celebrate later in LA uh this year. Like do a do one of our crappy LA parties. Our sub parties? If anyone has interest in uh in attending a sub party or funding a sub party. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[22:56] Yeah. We are ready to throw that sub party. Listen, Nastasia, I need you to before we get off this, since I know you're on the you're on your your internet machine anyway, we need to buy that domain sub party if it doesn't already exist. Before it exists. Because we we need to be we need to have trademark the sub party.
+
+[23:13] The thing that I really I want Jamie Foxx to throw our sub party. That would be great. Well, that's quite an ask you have there, Nastasia. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't know why he would do that.
+
+[23:24] I don't know. He Nastasia's obsessed with Jamie Foxx throwing a fancy party for not very much money back when he was poor. Why would he do that now that he's like super rich? I don't know. I mean, I also heard he's playing uh somebody really awesome in a movie.
+
+[23:40] Oh, Mike Tyson. No, never mind. Wow, okay. We know how you feel about Mike Tyson. Uh I watched that fight.
+
+[23:49] Well when they when they when they introduced the latest round of like novelty domain endings, I think dot party was one of them. So you guys could get subdot party? Oh my god, that'd be so amazing. Oh my god. Yeah, I had someone write in, by the way, as uh an actual question.
+
+[24:06] Somebody wrote in on Twitter, I'll answer it here. They were grinding their own stuff, so ear muss for a second, Nastasia, and they had a bad result when they were doing polenta. And I think one of the main things people don't understand with flour in general is damaged starch and the effect of fines in certain recipes. So for something like polenta, you don't want a lot of fines or corn flour or damaged starch. And so if you were having problems with when you were grind, you know, grinding your stuff with corn, that's probably it.
+
+[24:32] Um, the the domain exit does not, we should buy it. Buy it, do it now. Yeah, before somebody who's hearing our voice does it. Yeah. Yeah, you're you're now racing 12 listeners.
+
+[24:43] Yeah, okay, Nastasia, hurry up. I'm gonna be talking about carbonation and grinding flour for the next three minutes. All right, no, here's the theory though. Here's the theory. Remember when we were doing the the COVID and the anosmic uh COVID uh McGill?
+
+[24:57] Right? It struck me, uh you know how people are lose their sense of taste and smell with the COVID. So um it struck me that I got takeout like five months ago from a uh uh a restaurant, and it was terrible. Terrible, had no flavor. Oh my god, Dave.
+
+[25:16] It's $700 for subdot party. What? Yeah, I think because it's just an awesome name. Yeah, it's a premium domain, it says. No, I'm yeah, I'm well, we're not premium people, so no one pays a premium for a sub party.
+
+[25:31] That's the whole idea. Yeah, maybe Jamie Fox will pick it up. I can eye. Yeah, yeah. I think yes.
+
+[25:38] You know what? When he does host that party, everyone's gonna eat their words. Sargon says it's 500 on Google domain, so it's coming down. Listen, listen. Hey, what it was, what do you think I will happily eat my authorize me to what do you authorize?
+
+[25:51] No, no, no, no, no. I'm not actually gonna use it. We're not actually gonna use it. Listen, listen, listen, listen. When I when I eat my words, am I allowed some form of sauce?
+
+[26:00] Uh no, no. Let me ask you this. Have the words come out of my mouth and like sat in a cup and dehydrated and gotten that dehydrated spit smell when I eat them, or are they fresh words? No, no, no. The former.
+
+[26:12] Okay, I'm gonna say this only once. And if any of you are eating, put on earmuffs right now. Oh god, they're not don't don't, don't, don't. It's gonna be gross, isn't it? The worst smelling thing I've ever smelled is not the Surstromming.
+
+[26:26] It was in college when someone said they would drink a cup of spit, and the spit cup went around, and then everyone spat in it. And when it came around to me, I smelled it. It was the worst smell ever. Were you pledging a fraternity or what? No, no, it was for it was for money.
+
+[26:43] It was for money, and we didn't let him do it. We did not let him do it. I smelled it and I was like, you're not doing this. This is not happening. So he didn't do it.
+
+[26:50] No, he didn't do it. Oh my god. It's probably good. We'd have been would have been patient zero for some other pandemic. No, but I used to like, you know, like I I never did it for like, you know, kudos.
+
+[27:01] I did stuff for money. Like I drank a gallon of salsa for like I think five bucks. That's not bad. And you also did milk or something, right? And then a gallon's a lot.
+
+[27:09] No, I never did the milk challenge. I've seen people do the milk challenge. I've never seen someone, I've seen people successfully get a gallon of milk down, but not hold it down. So that's when you got F by the guy, right? Uh no, no.
+
+[27:25] That one he he drank the uh so this guy I knew we had stolen from the dining hall a gallon of cooking wine, pay Petri Brava, this the brave stone. And um, you know, and so like he this guy said he could drink this whole gallon of wine in an hour, and we're like, we can't because that'll that's enough alcohol to kill you, and you're a lightweight anyway. So I was like, I'll take that bet because you know you'll be dead. I won't have to pay you anyway, right? And he did it, but he had secretly replaced the wine with water beforehand for a different prank he was planning on doing.
+
+[27:57] So he was punished. You know what I mean? Like, because that's Welching. You know what I mean? Yes.
+
+[28:01] Like that's not cool. Yes. Not good. Not cool. Um, hold on, hold on.
+
+[28:06] So back to what I was saying. So during the pandemic, we get this relatively new restaurant. Food abysmal, no flavor at all, like completely like underflavored. Here's my theory. Maybe the chef was experiencing post-COVID like uh taste problems and could not judge the flavor of uh what they were putting out.
+
+[28:28] You think that's possible? I don't know. I don't know. If anyone has had an experience where they think their chef has no sense of taste anymore, you know, or you know, if any of you want to follow up on the on the show we did about it. It's probably a medie question, though.
+
+[28:45] No, I mean, I'm saying for people out there, how many restaurants can Harold eat at? I'm saying, like, do you think this has happened to you? Also, so everybody knows I posted the Harold video that everyone loves today. Wait, Zoltar? Yeah.
+
+[28:59] Well, the one where the meat falls and then Zoltar. No, it's classic. So Fabulous, which is you know, Fabian Von Husky and Jeremiah Stone, who has a dog named, by the way, for Japanese food names, like we have two in our friends and family zone, we have two dogs named after kiss case starting Japanese food. What is yours called? Koji.
+
+[29:23] Hey, Koji. Yeah. And uh, and Jeremiah Stone's dog is Kambu. But Jeremiah's dog looks like one of these, like, you know how like certain animals, like like whippets and whatnot have like some sort of genetic problem where they can't put fat on. So like they're always shaking because like they're cold because they have no fat.
+
+[29:45] You know what I'm talking about? No. Yeah. So uh, well, so he has something that looks like almost like like a pit mix, but with that shaking issue. Is it what I'm saying?
+
+[29:53] Here is it a mutt. I have no idea. I have no idea. But anyway, it's named Kambu, and it's always shaking. But it's like all it's like only muscles and bones.
+
+[30:03] Did you know that uh there is a a Belgian breed of pig called the uh I I'm gonna mispronounce it for you because that's what I do to other uh to French words, pie train or something like this, and uh Pietran, something like this, uh I believe it's Belgian, and it's a double muscled pig with very low fat, and they quite often just drop dead. They just boom and drop over dead because like it's just too much stress on their system to have all of that muscle and like not enough fat. Yeah, you know, it's just just like what they're there once, you know, you walk up, you're like boo pig, and it's like over, down. Yeah. So and a lot, a lot of farm animals with the double muscled trait, super lean, have that sudden death kind of a problem.
+
+[30:49] Yeah. Yeah, just that's a little FYI for all of you guys if you're planning on uh raising them. I talked to the TP people, they said it's fine. So Nastasia Lopez. Dave gave me Yeah.
+
+[31:00] Yeah, talk about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Nastasia Lopez, as many of us have, I can't, I can't, she can, I can't, have had teepee dreams. So go ahead. So I got a teepee, I ordered a teepee.
+
+[31:13] And uh from a place that is uh uh an authentic place, and the poles arrived on Friday or whatever, and uh and they're big, they're like 18 feet probably. And teepee size. It's not like it's not like an IKEA freaking teepee. And I've like a huge lawn, like huge with no house on it. Well, it's a tiny little tiny house.
+
+[31:38] Tiny house, but huge lawn. And the neighbors are lucky because there's no house on it, so they have a view also. Anyway, polls arrive, and the neighbor was like, What you're gonna do with those polls? And I said, It's for a teepee. And he was like, Oh, they're really big.
+
+[31:56] If you need them cut down, I know a guy. Little hint, yeah. So then I called it. By the way, for those for those of you, wait before before you're done. For those of you know, Nastasia's place is roughly the size.
+
+[32:11] You know, when you drive up to a home depot and they have those prefab like sheds out front, like that size. Go ahead. The place I'm in, the place that I about. Yeah, your actual apartment is like the size of one of those two prefabs. The neighbors hate this place because it's like it's a cute place, though it's cute.
+
+[32:27] Yeah, but they hate it because it blocks it blocks a portion of their view. Whatever. It was there before they were. Is it is it new construction? It was there before they were.
+
+[32:37] That's like that's like the person who moves in over a bar and it's like it's loud. And also, I'm really quiet. I like you know, don't do anything. I what am I gonna do by myself? Anyway, so I called Dave and I'm like, oh my god, Dave, this is what they said.
+
+[32:52] What am I gonna do? You know, and Dave, what did you say? Yeah, uh you're gonna say that. I can't I can't say it. I just said that like so you know Nastasi and her dad have been doing their genetics research, and they you know came back with uh forget what it what it what was the what was the exact dad is 40% Native American, so right?
+
+[33:14] But it wasn't a specific group or not? Apache, yeah, yeah. And yeah, so like, yeah, I was like, Nastasia, you could totally just make them feel terrible. You could totally just, you know, yeah. It's just uh we just got the results back, and we're celebrating, you know, confirming the heritage that we always said that we have, or celebrating, and then like the person could be like, you tope, but you do.
+
+[33:38] You specifically do. No, I don't. I don't want to go there. Like, I you want to make them squirm. You want to make them squirm like a bit.
+
+[33:45] They're gonna send me a ton of texts and not be upfront, you know, about this TP and it's first of all versus the people. If you're dealing with nostasia, or really anyone, don't go past it, go full. Go full of it. Don't go passive, go full. Go full.
+
+[33:59] Yeah. Is the TP actually like is it going to really obstruct their yeah, but I but how far away is their house? I mean, like, you know, it's like very like, I don't know. I mean, like, Matt, have you seen a real thing about it? Right, you can imagine.
+
+[34:15] That's what I'm that's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, there we go. Before before we get into this, like how big how big is the how big's the bottom spread gonna be? Like 12 feet. 12 foot, yeah.
+
+[34:25] Yeah, so it's not insubstantial. It's a 12 I know. It's a 12-foot diameter, 18-foot highlight. It's still relative. It's all relative.
+
+[34:35] Uh, yeah. Right, yes. Yes, it is. I said that to them. You know what?
+
+[34:44] Very uh, John, you're very uh what's it called? Very uh soothing presence in these kind of things. Uh I'm dreading this. Is this listen? Also, setting this thing up next to your house gonna make it.
+
+[34:54] It's not gonna be next to my house. This is even smaller. It's gonna be far away, like underneath. Well, the real problem is that is that she can't have it blowing into the sound. That's the real issue.
+
+[35:02] Well, they so I told them I called the TP company, told them about the winds, and they said, No problem. That this is what they're made for. Yeah, I told you that wasn't gonna be a problem because they're out on the plains where the winds are a billion miles away. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:14] But uh dreading, dreading you're not, you're you're you're secretly loving it the same way. And John, you know, are super waspy, so they say things in very passive ways, very passive. And you could threaten to decorate the outside of the TV. It is decorated. Oh it's a whole like that it's a it's a scene of like a Native American killing a buffalo.
+
+[35:44] So it's very strong, it's very strong, Sass. I bet you can't wait to make your first fire in it. You gotta figure out how to work the fire flap. I read the the books you gave me, so it's it's a creating a vacuum, you have to create a vacuum. Also, I got the upstairs fireplace to work things to you.
+
+[36:00] So yeah, yeah. By the way, for those of you that don't use your fireplaces and you haven't, like if you live in a place where the fireplace hasn't been used for a long time, it is a good idea to get it checked first. Um and I would get it checked in the summertime, uh, because that's when chimney sweeps uh don't have a lot of business. Otherwise, like if you call during burning time, it's very hard to get a chimney sweep to come out and check your check your your stuff. But I think that the main problem that a lot of people have with bad draws is they don't put something real quick burning to get some heat into the flu.
+
+[36:30] Soon as the flu gets hot, it'll start to draw, you know? Anyways, when I had the guy look at my fireplace in my because the fireplace upstairs is in the bedroom. The the guy came up and he was like, Oh, why do you need it to work? It's not like you're gonna be looking at the fire in here anyway, right? I was like, Oh, you're like suck it, buddy.
+
+[36:48] It's my fireplace. I hate it when people tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing. Right, you know what I mean? Yeah. One of the things you'll tell you believe is when someone's like, if you're carrying like a lot of boxes of liquor, like it was always happened at the FCI.
+
+[37:02] What does somebody say? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh my god. Oh, we need help tasting. Oh, here's some more things we hate people. John got another angry freaking email this morning from someone all bent like a freaking pretzel about us not having freaking Sears all for sale.
+
+[37:26] Buddy, die. You know what I'm saying? Like, why are you giving John crap about something he already feels bad about as though we're organizing our business going sinking like the freaking Titanic just so that you can't get your Sears All? Like, who thinks that that's a thing? You know what I'm saying?
+
+[37:47] What are you saying? Super snarky. Hold up. Let me pull it up. He's for just for everyone's record, too.
+
+[37:52] He's been emailing me since December 16th. Yeah. Yeah. That's because that's a good thing. Another month has gone by.
+
+[37:59] Still no Searsol. We're now in what? The fourth month of unavailability? Any update? As per your previous emails, can you please define quote unquote soon?
+
+[38:08] Thanks. Wow. It's not like we're doing this because we like it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[38:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what, Stas? What it? Why don't we shut down our whole source of revenue for a quarter of a year just to shaft this one person?
+
+[38:24] Right. No, but like if only people knew like the angry conversations between in you know, internally, like externally, with like all, you know, so it's not healthy. Is there a Searsol page on Amazon that says it's like unavailable? No, they wiped it. They wiped it.
+
+[38:48] Yeah. There are pages. No, no. No, no, no. There's pages.
+
+[38:54] There's pages for the knockoffs, though, so there's that. That's good. Uh all right, hold up. So, John, you said you had some information on crab being the new poke, or no? Well, no, you said you you're the one who wanted to talk about it.
+
+[39:06] I want well, I wanted people to write in and tell me why they think the crab restaurants are a thing now. And someone gave me someone sent me on Twitter uh like a really cool word, which I'll I'll I'll forget, but it's something like carcinero carcerization. I I can't pronounce it without I have to see it in front of me, but it's like the coevolution of the parallel evolution of crab like features in different decopod uh crustacean lines. Cool word. Cool word.
+
+[39:32] Uh I wish I could remember exactly how to pronounce it without looking at it. Whereas I have other words where I know how to pronounce them but couldn't spell them if you asked me to. You know what I'm saying? Weird. Um, the meaning of this word is like uh independently a bunch of organisms trend towards these same traits.
+
+[39:48] Is that the idea? Right, but they're all crabs. Yeah, look it up. It's like like kars like crab, carcinot carcinization, car uh you look it up and you tell me. You you look it up, you tell me.
+
+[40:03] Um also when you guys uh if if you guys are gonna be getting in, because it's bug season coming up uh soon. If you are getting large amounts of uh grains and flowers in and you have a vacuum machine, it is a very good application for a vacuum because a good tight vacuum seal will kill anything that's alive. Not bacteria, but will kill uh bugs and whatnot. So vac down your stuff as soon as you get it. I have 45 pounds of soft red wheat that just showed up, and about 15 pounds of bloody butchered corn that I'm gonna be messing around with.
+
+[40:36] And so as soon as we get off the phone, actually, not as soon as I get uh we get off the phone, because Nastasia has me doing another phone call as soon as we get off the phone. But right after that, I'm gonna be spending my birthday vacuuming down sack after sack after sack of wheat. So good tip. Yeah, Matt, we need to end it right at one today, so yeah. This episode is brought to you by Wisconsin Cheese.
+
+[41:01] My name is Samantha Garner, and I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm a Cheeselandian because I take cheese seriously just like they do in Wisconsin. Cheese Landia is a community for loud and proud cheese lovers brought to life by Wisconsin Cheese. I know that I can always cook amazing food with their cheese, and it's even good enough just to snack on. As a Cheeselandia member, I know there is always a supported community behind me who always gets as excited as I do about cheese.
+
+[41:25] Go to Cheeselandia.com to learn more. And if it's for you, sign up. Check us out on Instagram at Cheese Landia. By the way, by the way, before we started the radio show today, someone in the background had someone lifting something so heavily that I could hear the hernia. Who was it?
+
+[41:42] Not me. Oh one of you in the background, right before the bean. It was that was that was on my end, and it was I oh man, I hope that guy's okay. So actually, like the miracle thing happened, which was that they were doing construction right next to me. And then it stopped just in time for the show and has stopped this entire time.
+
+[42:04] Like they must have taken their lunch break. Although I hadn't put it together that the very last thing I heard from them was like, So, so like maybe someone is actually very injured next door. I probably should be looking. Someone's intestine has popped through their abdominal wall and is like flapping around like a tapeworm right now. And I was just like, oh my good luck, they stopped.
+
+[42:23] Yeah. Fantastic. Because they're in the hospital, too. Geez, Louise. Alright.
+
+[42:30] From Sargon via email. Hey Nastasia, this came to you, Nastasia. I heard Dave's uh chamber vacuum hijanks after baking bread. I've been looking at a chamber vac upgrade to my current setup, which is a food master. Uh you know, uh, any recommendations for relatively small home space?
+
+[42:48] So the one that I use is a mini pack. Uh, but I have to say I only really have experience with uh mini packs and with essentially. I have experience with Burkles, mini packs, and multi-vax, but they're all like kind of the expensive professional ones, and they're real pricey. I like the mini vac ones for um mini pack ones for size to benefit ratio. Um so like, you know, especially their smaller oil ones, I think are very good size for a home kitchen.
+
+[43:18] Uh, and they have a nice dome top so you can get pretty big stuff in for their size, but I don't have a lot of experience with anything kind of less expensive than that. But, you know, and I haven't bought one in many, many years, but it always used to be, you know, Mini Pack was uh a little bit of the underdog compared to multivac, and so they would give you better customer service, whereas the multivac people didn't care whether or not you bought their stuff or not. They had that real kind of German kind of attitude about it. So uh, you know, I always pushed for mini-pack whenever, whenever I could. I heard they were releasing a new unit, um, but I I haven't seen it yet, so uh I can't say anything about it.
+
+[43:55] Uh crafted Grog wrote in via Instagram. Hey Dave, uh just started liquid intelligence and I'm enjoying it. At least that's back in stock. At least I'm personally selling something, right? Nastasia, you know, yeah, I think it's back in stock.
+
+[44:07] I I guess so. So mean. So mean. On my birthday yet. Uh hey Dave, just started liquid intelligence and enjoying it.
+
+[44:15] So not like Nastasi. Well, you enjoyed it. It keeps hot things hot and cold things cold. Yeah, I left it at someone's house, though. So Jesus.
+
+[44:23] Did I inscribe it to you? Probably. Yeah. You're such a jagweed. The next time that guy brings something over for a potential.
+
+[44:31] Someone can sell that for a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. By the way, if you go on Urban Dictionary and look up Jagweed, the person who defined jagweed misspelled douche. What a jagued. Um, so how long would one have to boil, say, a standard 80-proof spirit like an age rum or even liquor to completely remove the alcohol?
+
+[44:54] Also, would some of the flavor of the rum or liquor be removed too? Thanks. Yes, much of the flavor will be removed. You're gonna be removing um most of the aromatic compounds uh because that's why they're aromatic. You boy you boil them off, right?
+
+[45:07] And so um, you know, if you boil for a long time, um, you know, that's that's that's gonna happen. Also, it depends on what you mean by completely, right? So um, you know, when you're doing testing for alcohol levels, what they tend to do is they take a sample, they boil it down to a third of its volume, and then they redilute it back up to full volume to test uh when they're doing uh tests of um for instance alcohol versus uh sugar and and things like that. Um so I mean it's quite a lot, and you're still never gonna get down to zero because there's always kind of a differential partial pressure. So it's not like it's not like you're boiling something and only the alcohol comes off and then only the water.
+
+[45:49] So you never get down to zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, but nothing is zero, zero, zero. Like, you know, there's yeast everywhere making alcohol at all times. For practical purposes, I would probably say that if you reduce by you know half, you're gonna get rid of most of it. And then, like I say, for testing purposes, they reduce two one third typically. Um that did I answer that question?
+
+[46:11] Yes, go on. Uh Nikki J 93, uh 93, year I graduated from college. Uh when people write 93, that's the usually the year of their when they write a year, that's the year of their birth typically, right? Mm-hmm. That sounds about right with our listener person.
+
+[46:26] Demographic go. I don't mean that, but I mean in general, that's how people choose their names, or no? Yeah. Yeah. Unless at a certain age, you might do like high school graduation year or something if you're quite young.
+
+[46:39] Oh, geez. Like when it's ahead of you. What is the six and Nikki six mean? That's his last name. In the real life?
+
+[46:46] Yeah, he took his like step. I can't remember, but yes, it's a real last name. Hmm. I looked up this morning a blues musician. Check out this person's name.
+
+[46:56] Ready for it? Houston Stack House. How awesome is that name. Nice. Yeah.
+
+[47:01] Uh Nikki J93. Hey Dave, fan of the podcast. So sorry about existing conditions. What's my favorite bar in the city? Well, you know, maybe some I don't know.
+
+[47:08] Who knows? Uh I I don't know. I don't know. Or as my grandma's parrot, which may or may not still be alive, Gunther. Not Gunter, Gunther.
+
+[47:18] Uh you would say he he used to say two things that he would mumble, right? I don't want to, and I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't want to I don't want to want to open up.
+
+[47:27] Wait, no, Dave, that's not true. That's not true. Well, talk about it. I tried to get him to curse. What?
+
+[47:33] Which one? Oh, what the well, so he would squawk, right? So, like, he would like Gunther. So, you we were driving from like LAX to Mount St. Helens in like a very underpowered motor home.
+
+[47:50] This has got to be 1984, right? 83, 84, something like this. And we got two dogs, a chow, a vicious chow, Taffy. The other guy said, I think I said this before, the only animal whose death I celebrated with a drink. When this dog died, I went out for cocktails, celebrated, you know, spent more money than I had at the time in college, because this was the only the meanest dog that I have ever encountered in my life.
+
+[48:17] In fact, my stepfather, the shrink, had you know, said that like it's the only uh animal model for schizophrenia he's ever seen. Wow. Right? So like this dog was mean. So mean, in fact, and I and I make it a habit to not be mean to to animals, right?
+
+[48:35] Whenever grandpa would have Taffy on, it was a chow, right? It's pictured, big chow. When grandpa would have Taffy on a leash, when grandpa would look away, I would make a face at Taffy, Taffy would bark, grandpa would yank the chain. I was like, hey. And the re one of the reasons I hated this dog so much was because we're in the motor home, and for those of you that never been in a in an 80s vintage kind of motor home, like above the driver, there's like a little like attic space, right?
+
+[49:06] And that was the bed where I slept, right? And because grandma and grandpa, they would pick up the table in the back that had the map of the America on it, and then they would put the table down, and that would become their bed. You guys familiar the setup I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[49:18] So anyway, middle of the night, and this is why I think, by the way, I can hold myself on a 14-hour plane flight. Like to this day, like I I can get on a 14-hour plane flight, and I do not need to use the restroom if I don't want to, right? And it's because this dog would not let me pee at night. I would try to swing my leg over to get down. And I didn't want to wake grandma and grandpa up to like, you know, even though they were only like 10 feet from me because they're in the back of the motorhome.
+
+[49:46] And so to this day, I hold a grudge. I can hold a grudge on not being allowed to pee. But again, Taffy maybe taught me a valuable lesson. But that's not the story. So Gunther.
+
+[49:54] So Gunther used to have this thing where if you left him alone, he would start saying, Love you, love you, love you, honey, honey, honey. And then if you didn't answer, it would just go, ah, ah! So, like, we're going up like uh the you know, big sur area, like that Pacific Coast Highway, like you know, it's like a cliff, you fall off of it. We're in a motorhome. Grandpa's only doing like one mile an hour, so cars are going in that tiny lane around us, you know what I mean?
+
+[50:26] Nightmare. Super underpowered dodge. Nightmare. Anyway, so uh we're going around and we start hitting these bumps, right? And grandpa can't do anything, he can't pull off nothing because we're on the Pacific Coast Highway.
+
+[50:38] And all of a sudden, Gunther, who during the day is in my bed up above the uh, you know, the driver, the cage goes, boom, falls off of his thing, hits the ground. Gunther starts running and flapping up and down the motor home with the two dogs going, Love you, love you! Like the screaming, we're on the Pacific Coast Highway. And my grandma also then starts going, like, but grandma basically sounded like the parrot. So if you closed your eyes, you didn't know whether you were hearing my grandma or whether you were hearing the parrot.
+
+[51:08] And in fact, my stepfather once thought that he was catching grandma and grandpa doing it. And it was the parrot. It was the parrot screaming, love you in the morning. And and Gerard, my stepfather was like, Hey, hey, pretty good. I hope I'm still going this way when I'm their age.
+
+[51:27] You know what I mean? Hey, go for it. Anyway, it turns out it was the parrot. But uh, I don't even know how so the other thing is that the parrot would constantly mumble. I don't want to because anyway, so like whenever I mumble like that, I do the parrot mumble, or like, you know, no, you know, I don't I don't know, I don't know.
+
+[51:45] He would say, I don't know, I don't want to, but my grandma didn't want the parrot to say anything negative, which you know, I again the parrot hated me, so like I couldn't teach it anything because I tried to teach it curses constantly, because of course, because I was a teenage boy, and uh, but like she would always say that instead of saying I don't want to, because he would always torture my grandpa and make him do stuff he didn't want to do and say that he didn't mind. Richard doesn't mind, she would say that all the time. Like, grandpa would be sitting there reading some garbage pulp novel because that's the only thing he actually liked doing. And someone else would be like lifting something, and she'd be like, Richard lift that for you. Richard doesn't mind.
+
+[52:22] He's like, it's because grandma hated reading. Grandma hated reading and learning. This is your terrible, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so like, and so like, and then I guess grandpa would mumble, and then so then the parrot learned I don't want to, but grandma wouldn't accept that the parrot was saying that it didn't want to. So she would say, old Dean Witter, old Dean Whitter, and we're like, what the who the hell is Dean Witter?
+
+[52:44] And she was trying to retrain the bird into saying this nonsense, old Dean Witter. When I've still to this day, I've no idea what old Dean Witter is, or why they named it Gunther instead of calling it Gunter, which would be the actual German name. I mean, who whoever calls anyone, it's not Gunther Gable Williams. Hey, there they lived in uh San Bernardino, so they're that kind of hill. You know what I mean?
+
+[53:09] Yeah, yeah. Uh they move from San Bernardino to Hemick. Hold on. All right. I think we're mid question, but you have like five minutes.
+
+[53:16] Five and six Dave. Nikki J93 has a question. I don't want to. Uh, what is the best binding agent for breading slash frying? Some recipes call for egg, milk, buttermilk, or some combination thereof.
+
+[53:29] Was curious on your view for the best crunchy crust on some breaded and fried stuff, uh, chicken tofu, etc. Thanks. Nikki J, this is an incredibly complicated question. And one, in fact, that I'm working on uh right now. And there is no one best combination.
+
+[53:46] You have to think about what you are trying to do. When you say breading, right? Do you mean that you wish to have actual bread crumbs? Think about you need to come back to me on the on the next show, and you need to tell me, give me a target, right? So there's Schnitzel style crust, which is like made typically with European or what we call ABC American breadcrumbs.
+
+[54:07] There's more Tankatsu style, which is breaded. There's uh reasons to use cracker meal, although it's very not very used uh in in um regular kind of home cooking. And you're gonna you're gonna be thinking about what you want the texture of the coating to be, and then also like what the parameters are. Are you gonna do a pre-dust? I typically do a pre-dust in straight flour, then into a buttermilk, egg, uh, buttermilk, egg, baking soda, baking powder, and the soda is there, but it'll brown rapidly.
+
+[54:38] So if you're doing big things, you want to like scale back the soda to keep it acidic, and then back into flour. Uh it's but I want like crusty and crispy. If you want something that's crispy on the outside, but more temporal like, you wouldn't re-bred afterwards. You would use a heavier pre-dust and then a batter. So yeah, like it's very complicated, and I'm working on it right now for the book.
+
+[54:57] So come back with kind of more exactly what you want, and we can tailor the answer to more what you need. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay, instead of going to a question, let's leave it with something happy for birthday reasons. Um, okay, you got something happy?
+
+[55:13] Um what's one of our favorite stories or something we haven't told? Come on, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think. Uh, what's one of the best birthdays you've ever had? And why? Well, that 40th birthday was fun.
+
+[55:29] Yeah. You you were there, Jen was there, we had the whole crew at the FCI. That was a good birthday party. Yeah. That was a good birthday party.
+
+[55:37] Jen's 40th birthday party was also a great birthday party. That was at Del Posto back in the day. Um Mark made his 8 billion layer lasagna, which doesn't actually have 100 layers, right? Well, there's a lot of Mark fallacies that we've learned. It's like, like, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, this is the way Mark Ladner counts.
+
+[55:59] 13, 14, 100. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
+
+[56:06] It's many layers. It was a thin pasta, many layered lasagna. But a hundred sounds better. Ah, yeah, I don't know. Oh, I'll tell you this.
+
+[56:15] I'll give you this, right? So my dad, for my uh 50th birthday, uh sent me the pocket watch, and of course, because my family is like engineers, right? So my dad's an engineer, my grandpa was an engineer, uh, both double E. My grandpa was the was the first uh graduate of Penn State's uh radio engineers department and went directly to Westinghouse to design radars for uh World War II. Anyway, so because of that, of course, he has a spare.
+
+[56:48] He gave me my great-grandpa Clarence uh Clarence's pocket watch. And uh and sometime back in like the 40s, when my grandpa got it, he bought a spare identical unit in case this one ever broke so that he could swap out the parts. Classic Arnold engineering family kind of thinking. So he sends me this uh pocket watch, which is a railroad style, Hamilton railroad style pocket watch from 1916, so right in between when my great uncle Luke was born and when my grandpa was born. And great-grandpa Clarence, I never met him, he died before I was born, but he was a Lutheran minister in um in Pennsylvania and in Baltimore, all over Pennsylvania, York, uh Baltimore, uh over in college, uh State College over by you know um Penn State.
+
+[57:34] And uh so the railroad watches are interesting because you can't set them without opening them up because they were afraid on the railroad that you might accidentally set it while you were winding it and then get the time wrong, and then you'd have all kinds of problems. So he would take this watch uh before every sermon and he would put it down on the pulpit in front of him to remind himself that in his words, you don't save anyone after the first 15 minutes. Bye. And that's it. That's it.
+
+[57:59] You only have 15 minutes. And then people tune out. Now imagine now it's probably 15 seconds. Yes. So it's like, you know, in in in, you know, in he graduated seminary probably in the 20s.
+
+[58:15] Uh, or like, you know, maybe the teens or twenties. Uh, so yeah, actually the teens. You he graduated in the in the in the teens. And so, uh, yeah, back then you had a full 15 minutes to save people. So now, if you want to get anything done, if you want to save people, get your information across, just bear that in mind.
+
+[58:31] Put the watch down, and that's it. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thank you. Happy birthday.
+
+[58:37] Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[59:23] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at facebook.com/slash heritage Radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[59:45] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U. S T slash H R N.
+
+[0:16] This week on Meet and Three, we're jumping into a world filled with fizz, iridescence, and deliciousness. We are talking about bubbles. It came from the air gas truck. Yeah, no, I never thought about it before that. I think it's emerged as a bullbush tea shops, a site of Asian American youth uh identity building.
+
+[0:37] We're called the invisible industry because these products you don't really see, but they're around us in every way. Um, every day. Listen to Meet and Three wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever.
+
+[1:07] I'm in the lower east side of Manhattan. We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez uh joining us from Connecticut. How are you doing, Nastasi? Good. Yeah, we got Matt in the booth in Rhode Island.
+
+[1:16] How are you doing, Matt? Nastasia the flogger Lopez. Oh yeah. Well, so for those of you that don't know, before we come on, we have to like clap so that you know Matt can sync up our recordings later. And Nastasia has some sort of cricket bat that she's using to hit some sort of chained up enemy in her in her house right now.
+
+[1:33] At least that's what it sounded like. Is that fairly accurate? Yes. It's probably the anti is the anti-TP neighbor, isn't it? Right.
+
+[1:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, go back. Yeah, Nastassi, have you heard anything of in the like uh from like the anyone about the teepees? When do you when are you gonna erect it? Yeah, when are you planning on?
+
+[1:49] I would love if you could help me, but I know that you traveling is not possible, so. So you know what? You know what? You know what? Um That's a no.
+
+[1:59] We got uh John who's back in New York City. That's not a no. A no is no. Anyway, uh we got John in uh back in New York City. How you doing?
+
+[2:10] Doing well thanks. Yeah. You sound it you're like, yes. Yep. Yeah.
+
+[2:16] I mean, New York is not a bad place to be. Like it New York is not like bad right now. It's not like a terrible place to be. Things are happening in New York, kind of again, right? It's beginning to open up a little bit again.
+
+[2:27] Yeah. Once I get my second shot next week, I'm gonna feel a lot better about going out and doing things. Yeah, have you heard of the term uh vax hole? No. Yeah.
+
+[2:37] So it was like the urban dictionary, which I know whatever urban dictionary, but it has its moments. It was the word of the week a while ago, and it's uh someone who brags about being fully vaccinated when most of the people around them are not. I'm not saying that you're a vax hole. I'm not calling you a vax hole. I'm just saying it's an interesting word.
+
+[2:55] At this point, like 20% of the country is vaccinated already. Yeah. I think something in in there, at least one shot. Anyway, I I digress. We have today, and uh for anyone in the chat room, get your questions ready.
+
+[3:06] And John, can you monitor the Twitter in case anything comes in during the uh because I have a feeling that if people were paying attention, like these are the kind of questions that they have that I can't readily answer because I'm not an expert. Uh but we have today uh with us Heather Merrill Thomason, the founder uh and proprietor, proprietor, is that right? Proprietor, owner, what runner? What do you what do you what do you go by? All of those things?
+
+[3:32] Anything. Yeah. Of primal supply meets in uh in the great city of Philadelphia. How are you doing? Hi, I'm doing great.
+
+[3:40] Yeah. So, like if you have any uh if you're in the chat room and you have any questions on uh you know any meat or butchery related uh questions, uh send them on in. Now in the meantime, let's let's get people uh why don't you why don't you talk a little bit about primal supply meats uh to just to get us started. Oh sure. Okay.
+
+[3:59] Uh primal supply meats. So we are a whole animal butchery based in Philadelphia. Um basically what I've been doing for um five five years or so, uh the business is about to be five, uh, is building up a local supply chain. So I work directly with local farmers in our region that I've built relationships with, and I source and buy everything as whole animals based at this point. The animals are being grown for primal.
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+[4:22] Um I work with some local slaughterhouses, uh, manage processing, and then bring it all into our butchery in Philadelphia, where we then um you know cut cut all of these primals and subprimals as we receive the animals from our slaughterhouses into cuts for uh our three retail butcher shops. So we have like three kind of you know, classic brick and mortar walk in, chat with the butcher over the counter shops. We have a CSA style subscription program where people can sign up for a weekly box of meat, and then we also work with some restaurants around the city. Um so so yeah, so I'm like this kind of middle middle woman, if you will, uh managing sourcing and then kind of building up a market for local meat in Philly. Cool.
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+[5:03] Now, how did you get into this? Because I feel like you know, like uh butcher is kind of like uh evenly divide between people whose like whole family has been butchers. Like my my stepfather is the first person in his family for like seven generations who wasn't a butcher. Whoa. You know what I mean?
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+[5:18] He he broke the line. So it's like there's butcher families and then there's people that come to butchery. And you come to butchery, right? I do, I do. I uh I think I'm just like I'm an inherent problem solver.
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+[5:29] Uh so I'm a career changer. I was a graph designer. I studied and practiced graphic design for about a decade. And uh, but I've forever been a you know lover of food, cooker and eater of food. I've never I was never, I don't have a professional culinary background before butchery.
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+[5:44] But um yeah, I I just uh you know got involved with local food, befriended farmers, started to learn about how just kind of busted and broken the uh supply chain is for small producers and people looking to buy meat locally. Um so I did a crazy thing and decided I should learn the craft of butchery and jump off a career cliff and pursue new things to try to solve these problems. So uh yeah, so I did that. Yeah, well you you uh yeah, I mean you chose something that was real easy, huh? It was super easy.
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+[6:13] Uh yeah, it's like not uh not physically demanding, nor is it uh you know it's in instantly economically rewarding. Yes, for sure. Yes. I mean, my uh yeah, I used to hear stories about uh, you know, my my stepfather's dad, just like I mean, punishing work. I mean, butchery is just punishing work, like carrying big sides of beef around and like you know, cutting stuff up and moving stuff around constantly.
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+[6:37] I mean, uh were you expecting that when you got into it or no? No, uh definitely not. Um, you know, I'm like a physical person. I uh, you know, I I danced all through my childhood. I I've never been like inactive or afraid of doing work.
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+[6:51] So I think I I came into it in my early 30s and I was sort of like bright-eyed and ambitious, and I was out to solve all these problems, so it was like, let me get in there and do it. And I'm like 41 now, and I will admit that there's many uh things where I'm just like, oh yeah, 10 years ago my back was up for that, and right now it is not. Yeah, I mean, yeah, and then people want meat all the time, so it's not the kind of thing that you can you know, anyway. Yeah, it's just I mean, the hours. I remember, you know, until the the day that uh my stepfather's dad retired, the hours were just like they were nuts.
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+[7:22] He was always he was always being a butcher, no matter what. And when he got home, he was way tired because he had been doing stuff all day. So yeah, that I mean that's kind of the story of being a business owner, you know, it's like it never sleeps. And honestly, in building primal, because I was doing butchery, you know, I learned butchery, I was running other butcher shops before I started this business. And I did try really hard to design this business to make it a little bit more, I guess like smart and efficient labor wise.
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+[7:45] Like I did carry, you know, quarters of beef and sides of hogs on my shoulder at this last butcher shop because that seemed romantic and what you were supposed to do. And then I was just like, hell no, this is gonna break backs. Uh I pay workers' comp, all these things. So that's why I work with my slaughterhouse, and they have a lot more, you know, they have like hoists and all of these things that make it be possible to like work smarter, not harder. Uh so we have them break our beef off the rails down into primals that are now like 30-pound pieces that you can carry around.
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+[8:16] Uh, and that that makes a lot of sense. And you know, I'm sure that there's people that work for me or think about working for me, they're like, oh, but I you know, I want to like know how to cut it down off the rail. And it's like, that's not really the hard part. Like all the nuance and the the interesting things come later, and just trust me, I'm saving your back. Well, so let's talk, let's let's talk about this.
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+[8:36] Like um, because I feel like there was there was the kind of butcher shop that my you know, my stepfather's family ran for years and years out of Boston, you know what I mean, that doesn't ex really exist anymore because that's back when a butcher could do their own slaughter, really. You know what I mean? Like he would go pick out the lambs. He was a lamb specialist, right? He did everything, but he was a lamb specialist.
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+[8:57] So he would go, he would know the farmer like you do. He would pick out the lambs, slaughter them, you know, do the whole whole nine, you know, try to rip rip rip off the other suppliers. And I want to talk about like value added and what happens with I mean, like the crazy stories. I'll tell you one later if we have time if you're interested in crazy old, crazy old butcher stories. I'll try to pick one that we haven't said on the air before.
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+[9:17] And uh, and then kind of like the butchers that I grew up with, where everything was coming pre-cut in cases, and you know, it was just a whole bunch of you know, the the cuts that everybody wanted, and you know what I mean? So, like, and then but what you're doing is a kind of a newish, newer model. Like we want to talk about this kind of resurgence of this type of butchery and how it's different from what happened in the way past versus what happened in the recent past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is definitely um so the uh a resurgence of craft butchery happened, that is a thing, because there was a time where you know everything got industrialized and centralized, and next thing you know, you know, the the corner butcher shop kind of went by the wayside to the grocery store, which started to have the in-house butcher, and before you know it, they're just ordering cases of cuts from you know these factory industrial, you know, meat factories.
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+[10:08] And it's like, you know, your customers want a lot of skirt steaks, you just order boxes of skirt sticks. Customers want tender lines, you order the tender lines. So um, so yeah, all of that, it got to a point where the people in grocery stores or at the even the remaining butcher shops were just kind of meat cutters, not butchers. I guess that's like kind of a loaded thing, but that's maybe the difference there, where they would know how to get cuts and apportion them, but they didn't have a relationship to the farms, they didn't have a relationship to whole animals. They wouldn't know what to do with the side of beef if they were looking at it.
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+[10:37] And uh, you know, I think it's been, I'm trying to think like time timeline-wise, maybe like 15 years now, since the first, you know, couple of people tried to sort of bring back the craft and open whole animal butcher shops, and definitely like Josh Applestone, you know, formerly a Fleischer's now Babblestone Meat Company, um, you know, is and should be credited as kind of the one of the leaders in that resurgence. Um, but so I I kind of came up seeing these problems in the the you know, small food system that like the the big all the rules and USDA regulations being applied to them wasn't working and it was breaking it. And the model that was new but was visible to me was this, you know, new this the new age craft butcher shop, people who were trying to bring back the old way, and that's what I sought out to learn and do. But as I've eventually worked my way up to running a butcher shop in that model, I was like, oh, this doesn't really work. Like there's a reason why people move towards box meat because there's a lot of inefficiencies in labor and time and and all these things.
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+[11:37] So, you know, I honestly did build primal as sort of this funny problem solution new hybrid model of the old and the new, you know, where um, you know, unfortunately, we can't harvest our own animals. There's a lot more USDA restriction and regulation about that, so I have to partner with uh local slaughterhouses to do that. But I mean that's one of the reasons my uh my stepfather's dad retired by the way. Really? He's like, yeah, he's like crap on this.
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+[12:01] Like in like 1983. Yeah. He was like, he's like, to hell with this. Good on him, yeah. Yeah, because the craft was gone, right?
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+[12:11] Like everybody was just kind of looking for cheaper, easier ways to do things. And uh, so yeah, so we, you know, technically, all of those principles and sort of the way that that works is what we do. But I've kind of like shifted the labor around in the supply chain to try to just make it like effective and efficient for us. And uh, and yeah, and that's that's what we do now. So, our meat does come to like I have the slaughterhouse break it per my instructions into kind of the first cuts.
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+[12:36] Like when you take whole animals and you break them down into large format parts and pieces, first they're quarters and halves, but then they become primals. That's where primal supply came from. Uh so I can have the slaughterhouse break my beef into these big primal cuts, and then it does fit on boxes and it does fit on pallets, and it's easier for us to move in the trucks, and it's easy for us to move around in the facility. But when my butcher's bringing into the room and they want to cut it, they still have like a lot of options and space for like how they cut and portion and utilize those things. So, you know, there's there's a lot of creative merchandising for lack of a better term, that happens where you know, after everybody buys the two flank stakes or four skirt stakes that we get off a single beef, what's next, you know, and introducing them to new cuts, things that are obvious to us but aren't obvious obvious to the to the you know primary consumer, or even like starting to experiment with I wonder if this could be any good.
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+[13:30] And there's a lot of things that aren't, you know, there's a reason why there's a lot of things that look like steaks aren't steaks because people have been doing this for a long time and they'll be and chewy or they won't cook well. Um but sometimes we're able to you know take take one cut and change it with the season or give someone something new. Um I don't know, we do a lot of like a good example of that is that uh we sell a ton of copa steaks or people call them pork neck, so it's like that barrel muscle that's in the pork butt or shoulder, and you know, typically people think a whole pork show shoulder you gotta roast it or braise it, and it's this like you know, inconvenient, long time, large format project to pursue. And we can take that muscle out, we can portion it into stakes, and if you cook it the right way, like a boneless pork shop, you have something that's awesome, and I get like three or four different one-pound portions to serve to my customers, which just made it go farther and gives them more quick cooking options. So yeah, it's kind of it's kind of cool.
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+[14:22] It's like think about what people want and try to see if you can give it to them. I mean, I noticed in your in your voice on one of the videos I saw of you that uh you're like it's not that it's not that you were implying that you didn't like ribs and strips. It's just you were like you were kind of like, come on, dudes. You know what I mean? Like uh, and so you, you know, like you threw out some steaks, honestly, that I've never even tried, like baseball steak.
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+[14:46] You wanna like uh I've I mean I'm probably behind the times, but like what which which like what are these kind of like uh alternative steaks that you'd like people to try? Now, and specifically, like I am not me personally, maybe the people listening are, but I'm not interested in a substitute for a rib steak. I want something that is different and like delicious in it in its own right. You know what I mean? Yeah, you know, for a while we were all everyone was about the tri-tip for a while, but of course that has problems because some of them are livery, some aren't.
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+[15:16] You gotta cut that little weird little thing out of it, and then I used to like to meat glue them back together because people don't want to cut through that thing and then chew it, la la la la la la. But anyway, so go go ahead and give me some, you know what I'm talking about. I don't. I'm actually, I'm like, what are you cutting out of a tri-tip? Uh wasn't it the tri-tip we were cutting out of?
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+[15:30] Isn't the tri-tip the one that's got that line running down the middle, or is that a different one? What's the colour? No, the trip. No, the tri-chip's like a it's shaped like a bicycle seat, it's like a triangle. Right.
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+[15:38] It is a whole muscle. Maybe you were having so the culott or picania, it's like the cap on the top sirloin. I'll look it up. It was mid many years. We gotta like Google Google and Yeah, I gotta look, I gotta look up.
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+[15:50] I gotta go, I've gotta go. It's been so many years. I gotta go look up. We used to do a meat glue class, and there was a there was, it wasn't an it was one of these stakes, it was shaped like a tri-tip, and then we would cut out there was a line that ran through it in the middle. Like it wasn't like between like a muscle junction.
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+[16:11] It was like through the middle of the steak. And we would cut it out and glue it back together. In the same way that in a rib steak, we would we used to cut the walnut out because people would get pissed, and we would cut, and we would cut out that line of you know that you know that line of connective tissue between the cap and the main part of the meat, and then that that line sometimes is nasty and sometimes isn't. And someone actually has a question about that, so we gotta get to that later. But we would cut we would we would we would kind of like lift the flap off, like you lift the car engine, rip that thing off, and then glue the flap back down.
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+[16:45] Wow, I'm fascinated by this. I like that we're like we're kind of coming to this from opposite sides. You're like the science guy, and I'm kind of like a touch and feel gal, you know. And uh meat glue might meat glue is like a fascinating thing to me. I was so like I don't sous bead, I'll be honest.
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+[17:00] I just don't. I'm like a cast iron salt and pepper. I talk a lot, I read a lot about sous videos so I can like educate and support my customers, but it's just kind of not my thing. And a chef years ago was encouraging me to use meat glue for like a pork, uh like a roulade roast. And I was like, dude, I don't I don't go there.
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+[17:16] Like that's not my style. He's like, no, no, it's made from plant matter, it's it's organic, you can do it. And I tried meat glue for the first time, and like my head exploded, and I was like, Oh, I never want to go back. This is so perfect. But it's a slippery slope there, you know.
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+[17:28] Well, it it you know what? Uh uh uh my memory just came back. It was blade stakes that we were doing. Aha, yes, yes, yes. Flat iron like flat irons, they're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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+[17:39] That's what we were doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then uh taking that center thing. Yeah. Well, okay, so I'll give you my thing on meat glue, right?
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+[17:46] I'll give you my pitch on meat glue. I'll give you my pitch in general, and we'll see whether you buy this argument. I'm not saying that it's for you, right? I'm ready to be sold. I'm like very ripe right now, so let's see what you got.
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+[17:57] If meat glue got a really bad um rep, I think for uh bad reasons. People were using it to take like hacked up pieces of meat, glue them into a faux steak, and it's like a patchwork quilt. And you know, as you know, uh, you know, as a as a meat person, like that just doesn't work. Like that like it just does it doesn't imitate what a real muscle does. It's not it's not a good idea.
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+[18:23] It's terrible idea, right? Things shrink at different rates depending on what muscle it comes from. And it's just it's just a freaking nightmare. And also it's dishonest, right? So like trying to, and and I've never been like I I never liked an argument where someone's like, Oh, well, I could pretend like I bought good meat and I can buy crappy meat.
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+[18:40] No, I mean if you can get less expensive meat and make it delicious, that that's a good idea, but if you're trying to rip someone off or pass something off, that's always a terrible idea, right? So that's just as as a as as a starting point. So now there are certain cuts of meat where I think they are delicious, but they have inherent problems from a customer perspective. So for instance, like the blade steaks got that line running down the middle. Great steak, if you take out that line.
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+[19:16] Or like, or like I was saying, like, you know, everyone lo everyone loves a rib steak, except for if you're gonna do the if you're gonna do the big rib steak on a plate and you're gonna slice it and serve it, like that that line that runs through that sometimes is you know cartilaginous and doesn't break down not as not as pleasant and a someone who isn't necessarily like someone who loves all of those textures isn't gonna enjoy it as much right same with the walnut you know and I mean what I call the walnut I don't know what you call it but you know um you know what I mean that I don't have a name for it but as soon as you said walnut I knew exactly what you're talking about so let's adapt that. Yeah so anyways so like like if if you're just taking something like that and um and and you're doing it like kind of up front and you're saying this is what I'm doing then and you tell people that you've done it because of course as soon as your knife goes into that piece of meat it's now contaminated right so you have to let people know you've done it because you know you've done it. Anyway so I think that like this is also like a setting situation where you're talking about doing this in a restaurant context right where you're trying to cook meat and then serve someone and have them have a perfect eating experience. Right. Whereas like I do so I do work with chefs and I love working with chefs but I kind of try to I try to learn about their cooking style and what their menu is and then appropriately sell the right cuts into it.
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+[20:38] Like if they if they have a concept in mind and something that they would want to use maybe there's not enough of them on an animal like it's like you know if you're gonna ask me about hangar steak we can't do it. But maybe I might talk to you about using a bavette or even like a Denver steak or something that's gonna have that loose grain texture that we would get a higher yield off the animal. So that's that's kind of like as far as I go with chefs and then I kind of put it in their hands and let them do their magic and it's pretty fun for me to then go and sit at the table on the other side and see what they did. But I spend a ton of time really cutting meat and selling meat to home cooks. And I my safest assumption is to just kind of like assume that everyone is just a mediocre cook at best and try to do everything to set them up for success.
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+[21:18] Because even things like, you know, it might seem like there's some obvious way to cut or portion a steak, but the way in which we cut it and present it to them is gonna guide how they then you know cut it and slice it when they cook it. So, you know, so it is actually really important that you're you're you know, like you're slicing and portioning a steak so that the grain, when they look at it and have a natural instinct about how to deal with it, that they're gonna like follow and cut across the grain. Or like the way that we tie things or even portion them, and kind of the importance of how you know, I when people, when butchers are learning and training and they can't, it's not that easy to cut a flat steak to be honest. Like it takes a lot of practice to not wedge them and have them be exactly, especially as they're bigger, uh, you know, an inch and a half thick from end to end. Because even like a tiny little slip-up where it's an eighth of an inch or a quarter of an inch thicker on one end to the other, is gonna set somebody up so one side overcooks and one side undercooks.
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+[22:11] So there's just like a lot of that that we go into thinking. So this I'm so fascinated by the blade stake thing. So the flat iron is one of the coolest muscles in the beef because it is um it's attached to the scapula. Like the shoulder blade, you so like one of you if you've listened to things from me before, which it sounds like you have, like, you know, I love to talk about what muscles do in live animals because that's what affects the flavor, the texture, the way they cook, like all the things that we experience as cooks and eaters. And so, you know, the more active muscles are, the more they taste amazing.
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+[22:45] But all that activity, you know, builds up things that are probably not pleasant in your mouth, like connective tissue and sinew and all that. So the shoulder, obviously, you know, these animals walking on all fours, leading with the front of their body, active part of the animal. That's a chuck and the beef, it's where all the flavor is. So the flat iron is the shoulder blade is deep within the shoulder and it moves with every step, but the flat iron is like attached to it, like it's bone skin, we call it, like you peel it off. So that muscle does not move independently, it's just kind of stuck to the shoulder blade, and as the shoulder blade moves, the muscle moves, but it doesn't have to expand and contract to do that.
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+[23:21] So it's one of the most tender muscles in the beef. Like after tenderloin or fillet, flat iron is like go for it. It's so incredibly flavorful because of that activity surrounding it, but it doesn't do a lot of work itself, so it's gonna be melting your mouth tender. But it's like this thick muscle, and there's this terrible, inedible seam that runs through it that's so tough. And what we do is we like you're filleting a fish, you know, like you're filleting uh, you know, the skin or like muscle off of off of one side of a fish.
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+[23:50] Uh, you fillet the that muscle off of that sinew, so you end up with two long thin stakes. Any butcher can tell you that no matter how long you've been butchering for, and no matter how much you practice, this is not that easy to do because the that sinewy seam is like it's not perfectly flat, it kind of like bends and changes and following it with your knife and not leaving meat behind is not easy to do. And it also doesn't separate easily like a silver skin or something. No, no, no, not at all. Like it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't peel easily, it's not that easy to follow with your knife.
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+[24:20] So it's like it takes some real practice to perfectly like fillet off those two muscles off of that center seam and not leave a ton of trim and like you know, yield. Can I say that? Family show fair. Sorry. Ruin your yield.
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+[24:34] Yeah, there you go. Um, so so yeah, so it takes a ton of practice to get a clean steak that you haven't hacked into that you haven't left trim behind, and it's just not awesome. And I remember the first time that I was like in charge of a butcher shop or thinking, like maybe we'll maybe we'll sell them and cut them this way instead of this way. And I learned about the blade stakes as you call them. I call them feather stakes because that's kind of what they look like when they're portioned with that seam running down the middle.
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+[24:57] And I was like, ah, I've cracked the nut. This is so much faster, it's so much easier. We don't lose trim, they look pretty. We're never selling flat irons again, like blade stakes, feather stakes won the war. So I was selling them out of my case, and then I had a customer come back to me and say, Hey, so I brought one of those feather steaks, and it was the worst steak I've ever had.
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+[25:16] It's just being so like this was a cook that was really talking to me, like he wasn't complaining, you know, in in just sort of like an unhappy customer way. And he's like, There was these incredibly delicious tender bites, but that stuff in the middle was just there's so much of it, and I left it all behind on my plate, and it felt terrible. And I just like I could just empathize with this experience and be like, Oh, that sucked. That sucked. I'm never doing this again.
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+[25:37] So now I've come full circle and I'm all pro flat iron, and we do that every time. But I watch my butchers do it, I do it, like it's just terrible. It's it's not so I don't know, I'm thinking about your meat glue to bring this back in this context. And that's not just for giggles. Like you said, it's like corrective surgery, and you still got this beautiful tender cut that you've just taken out that little offender in the middle.
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+[26:00] I can tell you that it's delicious. Yeah, I I used to do it as part, that was one of the in when we taught meat glue classes. Now this was in 20, I don't know, 11 or something. Um, yeah, back when we were teaching meat glue classes, like that's one of the ones that we did because those steaks were also, I don't know how what they cost now, but they were not that expensive back then. And um, yeah, because what I you know, look like from a I you know, butcher's perspective is different necessarily from like a cook's versus a customer's perspective, right?
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+[26:28] So, like I know from watching my family eat things that I've made, um, and you know, the students back when we were teaching them, that once you sear off a steak, it's real hard to necessarily see where those tough lines are. So you can't even, it's hard to do the surgery at your plate sometimes if you're not paying attention. And most people are talking and like drinking their wine or whatever, and so they just cross-cut, they're using a sharp knife because everyone hands you a sharp knife when you're so it's not like you know you can tell based on your knife. They'll cross-cut and they'll just put the whole dang thing in their mouth, and people aren't like used to having to like people aren't used to having to follow muscle lines on their own plate. You know what I mean?
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+[27:11] So uh, you know, and and like if you were doing it for yourself, you would know that, and you wouldn't just slice across that thing and eat it, but it's a very hard education problem, anyways. Yeah, I mean, even like selling someone, so I love to sell bones in meat. I mean, it's just like there's there's multiple reasons for it. Like from a yield and profit standpoint, it makes a whole lot of sense for me to, you know, it's like sell the bone with the meat, not have it be something that I separate out and give the customer all the muscle and keep the bone for me to deal with, and then you know, there goes the weight, and I I buy whole animals. Um, and in a lot of contexts, you know, bones sort of in proof give it like some structural integrity, or in a long cooking situation, adds flavor and all the rest.
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+[27:53] So I like to sell bone in New York strips. Why not? You know, uh the like shell steaks essentially. I think they're cool, they present well, they they cook kind of nice, they cook nicely, and uh, but I can't tell you how many times I've had a conversation with someone over the counter where I'm visibly holding up the steak and and trying to show them. So when you finish cooking this, you know, you're gonna take your knife and you're gonna slice along here to take the whole muscle off of the bone, and then you can cross-cut and slice this thing on your plate.
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+[28:18] And to anybody who cooks regularly, that doesn't seem like a very hard thing to do, but you'd be surprised how many home cooks out there have never just cut the ribeye off the bone or the New York strip off the bone before they then slice it and serve it. And they're they're up for it, but it's like you know, you really gotta like I said, you gotta do some coaching, you gotta cut it, set them up for success. And it's a funny conversation where someone's like, Well, do you have any boneless New York strips? And I'm like, Well, I can make anything boneless. I'll do it for you, but you want to pay.
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+[28:44] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. We make them more expensive. So the question in the chat that's sort of about like how you counsel novice share your, I don't know, sure, yeah. Um Chef Joanna asks, is there an easy quote-unquote trick to tell home cooks how to choose the right cut when the thing listed in the recipe is unavailable?
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+[29:07] Oh, um, I mean, that's a great question. I don't know that there's necessarily like a trick for that. It really just is being knowledgeable. I mean, that's kind of my job as a butcher, to be honest. Uh, to be knowledgeable about how different muscles will cook and behave, and then to make the appropriate substitute.
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+[29:24] So, like mainly I I have kind of my series of questions that I will ask people to try to hone in. You know, if they if they give me a recipe, I could just tell them what the answer is. But it's like, okay, are you looking, are you brazing, are you smoking, you know, are you cooking slow or fast? And then let's say that we're just talking about a steak. So, what were they after?
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+[29:41] Like, um, if they're asking me for a flank steak, for example, it's like, well, was it the long grain and the quick cooking, you know, thin thinness about it, or was it that's an incredibly lean muscle? Um, you know, because I could recommend something else that would cook the same, but it might be fattier. So it's really just kind of like the cooking technique, and then I think more if like I said, if the the fat or the sort of muscle grain, because there's kind of these like smooth, dense steaks, you know, like top sirloins, New York strips, things like that. And then there's those ones that have kind of a like looser, longer grain, like uh like a flank or a skirt or a glavette. And to me, those are apples and oranges.
+
+[30:20] So, you know, that's that's kind of the the thing. I guess like what's the end goal and what are what are they trying to get out of it? Right. But if you were matching, if you were matching someone's recipe, like would you would you match more on flavor, more on texture, or would you match, like where would you, where would you match first? Yeah, I guess I guess for a recipe, I would be looking for like the cook process.
+
+[30:45] So I'd probably say that you know, like how like how long or what temperature is it telling you to cook this so that we could sub it in and they would have the same result. Right? Because if it's saying three to four minutes aside and and this is gonna happen, then I want to I want to sub something in that's gonna behave the same way in process. If someone doesn't have a recipe and they're just kind of chatting about like this is what I'm in the mood for for dinner, um, then I think I could go a little bit more with like a flavor texture match because I could chat with them about adjusting the cook the cook time or process. Well, because then and I think the reason this is important is because uh like a lot a lot, especially people you know that that I deal with, like on on this show and like in life, are really interested in in things that they read from all over the world.
+
+[31:29] They can't necessarily get them, right? And some of them are becoming more popular. So for instance, like, you know, a couple of months ago, everyone was asking uh picana, picana, picana, picana, picana, picana, and like they couldn't get it. So, like, you know, I'm I'm sure now, like this, you know, the butcher shops like yours, you could deliver that, but what should they get if they if that particular one, what should they get if they want it? Or things like that.
+
+[31:51] Yeah, but like, is it cut like can you get it cut the same because it's got that like they leave the does it cut exactly the same way with the fat fat cap left on it and everything? Or yeah, I mean, well, that's that's one of those examples where there is actually like a comparable muscle, and it's kind of nice to say, have you had this? Well, then you could try this. And I do that with the cool outer picania, which is like the same muscle, or the tri-tip. To me, those are kind of interchangeable because they're both on the outside of the animal.
+
+[32:15] Um, like they kind of come from the hip. They're on the outside, so they're both gonna have that exterior fat cap. Um, they're sort of a similar size and thickness. So if you're following a recipe and it's giving you like a cook time, it's gonna behave pretty similarly. And I actually think like fat and and texture, muscle fiber-wise, they're pretty similar.
+
+[32:34] So that's that's kind of an easy one. But it's like, you know, the obvious example is like we just went through your Passover, and everybody wants brisket. And even though I at this point buy a decent amount of beef, there's still only so much brisket to go around. So then you have people coming in looking to utilize those recipes or do those same processes. So then you can kind of go through the down these steps of like, okay, so well, obviously, you're looking to do you're looking into your your grandma's brisket recipe, so you're looking to slowly braise some beef.
+
+[33:02] Um, so how much do you care that it's boneless? Because if it is, then I'm probably gonna recommend that maybe you use a chuck roast or possibly even like boneless short ribs, which we cut from the chuck flap. Um, if you're not so tied to that, then personally I would sort of jump ship and go to like, why don't you do some sh some actual bone-end short ribs or maybe try some like cross-cut beef shanks or something like that? Um, so it's kind of like you know, what's the most important to them? Like, do they want just one big boneless piece of meat that they can like slice and serve?
+
+[33:31] Because then we can't go to something that's gonna have to be an individual portion, like a bone-end short rib. So yeah, there's just like there's so many questions. It's like end goal process. I guess really the best thing is to figure out to that person like what thing do they know how to do, and what thing do you are they are they gonna like? If they're an intuitive cook and they're cool with like improving on a recipe where you could I could give them some pointers about this is just gonna take 30 minutes longer, or you're gonna do this to it, uh, you know, that then I can like substitute a little bit more freely.
+
+[34:02] If they seem like they're really gonna need to lean on that recipe, then I'm gonna really need to think about something that's gonna behave the same. And steaks are like a little, like I think the larger format stuff is a little easier to sub around. The steaks are a little bit more nuanced, and you only have a couple minutes of cooking time, so you really gotta get it right. Right. So going back to something you just mentioned, the chuck the chuck roast, chuck is so freaking complicated.
+
+[34:25] And I can never wrap my head around the chuckro, especially because I tend to do a lot of tests on like low temperature sous-vide work, and like all the muscles in that son of a gun are so different from each other that when you're actually trying to focus, it's just it's just too complicated for me. And that's why I I guess I never I never almost never use it, just because I'm like, uh, like I'll use it cubed up as stew meat, or I'll do it in like standard braises, but like actually using those muscles to me is because I just can't remember. Like, I can't remember like what is so what percentage of your things like chuck do you leave as that big complicated mess? And what percentage do you break down into like individual things that you know the in or that I can learn the individual properties of? Yeah, so that's this is a perfect question.
+
+[35:11] Okay. This is like one of these things where I would love to set you up for success. Because when I was training butchery, and I was I worked at this butcher shop in in Berkeley, and the way that we sold chucks was that we took a whole chuck, which is basically like the top half of the shoulder. It's it's a subprimal of the shoulder. It's the equivalent of like the Boston butt in a beef.
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+[35:30] And there's a lot going on there. You're talking all the way from the neck to like the fifth rib, um, and from the top of the back kind of down to the arm. So much activity, so many, so many muscles. And the way that we used to sell them is that we would um take the bones out and then roll that whole thing up into this big boneless roast that then we would slice into like big round four-pound chuck roast portions. And the only thing that you could do with that was really like slow and low braise it to till it was fall apart tender.
+
+[36:03] Um, because some of the tough muscles were incorporated in there, so you really couldn't do like a gentle roast with it. And yeah, like you said, there's just there's too many different muscles that behave different ways that if you wanted to kind of cook them to more specific, I don't know, like process or end result, you're not gonna have it. So for us, um, I have my processor uh break my big beef shoulder into the chuck and the clods. That's like the kind of the top half and the lower half, it would be the butt or the picnic in a pork. I feel like a lot of people have some pork whole animal knowledge, so sometimes that's an easier thing to equate it to.
+
+[36:36] So we get back these whole boneless chucks, which is all those muscles, and we actually intentionally break them into um three, and this is after there's there's a couple of external muscles that are involved in it, and you take those all off, but you're looking at that like giant boneless chuck roll. Um, we separate it into three different things. So the chuck underblade is this nice thick flat muscle that's technically, I guess. Sorry, my brain is trying to follow this in my in my eyes. Um the chuck underblade is kind of like that outer muscle, and it's big and thick and flat.
+
+[37:11] And we can separate that off. And then you have the actual chuck eye, right? That's the that would be the copa in the pork shoulder, or it's really a continuation of that ribeye muscle kind of moving forward into the shoulder. And that is what we tie into a chuck roast because that eye muscle is actually a little bit more specific, a little bit more tender, and you could braise it, but you could actually just like slow roast it and slice it and have like beautiful tender chuck roast. Um, and then we separate off the neck because the neck is the hardest working part of the shoulder.
+
+[37:42] Like if you think about the fact that these animals work walk around on all fours and they spend all day every day holding their head up, that is so hard working. And that we cube into like a fatty, you know, bourguignon stew cube, or we will sometimes um tie them into roast, but they are very specifically like chuck roast for you tell me that you want to do like a pot roast pulled beef situation. Like, there's no way that you're gonna roast and slice that. I would never sell you that for roasting, if that makes sense. And so so, even just those those three things make a pretty big difference.
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+[38:15] So the underblade, the first one I mentioned, um, that is often used for boneless short ribs. They're not really short ribs, they just kind of get made to look the same. Um, but that's also something that if we uh can completely like denude it of all the sinew on the outside and get down to the just the whole muscle, and it's maybe um, I don't know, it's like a it's shaped like a rectangle. It's depending on the the size of the beef itself, it's maybe like two inches thick, and it's uh, you know, let's call it like eight by twelve, it's like the size of a sheet of paper. And you can across the grain slice that into steaks, which is that's what we call Denver steaks, and it doesn't make any sense in your mind why something that comes from that hardworking shoulder would be something that you could quick sear a couple minutes aside and have a nice eating experience, but you do, and we love them, and like our customers love them.
+
+[39:02] They they kind of eat a little bit like maybe a hanger or something like that, where you kind of have like that that interesting like texture and chew, and you've got shoulder flavor. So that's like I said, this is one of these situations where you take a big big complicated like muscle group, like a chuck roll, and separate it into three different pieces, and now I can really customize and give my customers like really specific things that have uh if you if you use them in a certain way, you're gonna have a really predictable result. Just uh that's awesome. What's the what's the name of the whole thing that you take off again? So starting with a chuck roll, you would separate the chuck flap or underblade.
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+[39:41] Under underblade, that's a great word. Underblade's a great word. It is. You know what's you know, it's not a great word? Claude.
+
+[39:47] Claude. There's so many bad words. There really are. That's what Nastasia calls me when we're not on the air. Yes.
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+[39:54] My my favorite, like poorly named thing is I'm I'm guessing you're familiar with bavette, uh totally other side of the animal, right? Comes from the like belly flap animal part of the animal. And it's sometimes it's just called flap meat. Like who wants flap meat? And it's this beautiful steak.
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+[40:11] It's so it's sometimes called the sirline flap, but we we refer to it as bavette. And yes, that takes an explanation because it's a French word, but it's as beautiful as the steak is. John, does that mean flap in French? It means drool, actually. Oh, see, this is really interesting.
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+[40:27] Someone on my staff who speaks some French uh said that it translated to bib, and it's kind of like the shape of a baby bib, but that would maybe make sense about drool. Yeah. That's pretty hardcore. So I like something that is delicious that sounds like garbage in every language. Yes.
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+[40:46] That's great. Like head cheese? Yeah, head cheese doesn't sound good because head cheese sounds like toe cheese, but coming out of your head. Yeah. Who wants to cheese coming out of your head?
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+[40:56] It sounds like earwax or something. It's awful. Anyway, uh we have the same feelings about that. Right. So uh just a a no tipene, since you said that you're not into sous vide low temp.
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+[41:08] One of the problems I think people don't necessarily wrap their head around when they're doing um low temp sous vide, is that if you take a multi-muscle cut where some of the muscles are so if you take if you take something like a short rib, which is rel I know it's like but relatively uniform in the amount of connective tissue like throughout the pieces that you're cooking, and you low temp it, what happens is is that it gets tender, but the uh the the collagen turns to gelatin, but it doesn't render out and become it doesn't permeate the meat. It stays in right. But here's the downside. So, like uh I'll I'll move it to a different one and I'll ask you the question on this. So when you're doing like uh a pork belly, right?
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+[41:54] I have never pinpointed it, but there's one muscle in the pork belly that doesn't have a lot of connective tissue in it. And so when you low temp it, it's always drier and stringier than the rest of the of uh of the pork belly. Yeah. When you low temp it. And so I don't know what that muscle is or how to avoid it.
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+[42:13] If I know I'm gonna do low temp, maybe maybe you can tell me. But that's the that's the problem with doing low temp on something like uh someone's like, I'm gonna take a I'm gonna take a chuck, you know, a chuck roast like the sliced in thing, I'm gonna low temp it for like three days and come on. First of all, it's gonna turn to mush most of it anyway, because that's too long. But even so, some of those muscles are really nasty than eating on their own because there's no crosstalk of the gelatin after it renders, just as a little yeah. This is so interesting.
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+[42:42] Okay, so I I will say, like, I just I'm not a so-view cook because it's just I don't plan ahead. It's one of my in cooking. I'm like that person that can't start the project a day ahead of time, uh, just won't ever happen for me. And uh I don't know. I I really I'm fascinated by it.
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+[42:57] I love to learn about it. I love to talk to people about it because I I get it conceptually. Um, I'm just not that practice at it. And and I'm just I'm really a home cook, and I think it's cool and fun to do it at home, but I really understand how it can be helpful in like you know, larger format sort of restaurant capacity. But anyway, so the it's really funny that you just made that comparison because you know that the short ribs are essentially the same thing as pork belly, we just have the spare ribs, we've taken them off the belly.
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+[43:22] Um, that we've separated those into two things. But really, the plate ribs, which is the what we call the beef short, the more traditional beef short ribs, is really the front half of the belly if the spare ribs are still on on a pig, which is why you like that forward part of the pork belly. I'm guessing that the part that you're saying is kind of dry and not that good, is as the rear part of the belly kind of tapers into the sirloin. On a beef, that would be where we call where we pull the flank steak and the bavette and stuff out of, but we don't do that on pork, we just use the whole pork belly. Really, the front two-thirds are still gonna have that kind of like striation of muscle and fat and behave more like a short rib.
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+[43:59] And then that rear third is starting to transition into lean muscles. Like a flank is a completely lean muscle. And you that fat is sort of starting to go away and it behaves very differently. So I think if you're gonna sue the pork belly, you need to tell your butcher that you really want the piece, the portion to come from like the front rib end of the belly and not from the rear sirloin end of the belly. These are good tips.
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+[44:24] And what about those cartilage fingers that run through it? Oh, yeah, the like little rib tip. Those shouldn't be on there. I mean, that should that should come off real, you know, the the belly primal, all it is is like we break the belly off of the top loin section and it's got ribs laying on it. So you remove those all with your knife.
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+[44:40] I I like to do St. Louis style spare ribs, so that means that we take all the ribs off the belly, and then at the point where the actual bones themselves have the joint into that soft little cartilage rib tip piece, you just cut across and your your spare ribs themselves only have bone, and then those rib tips become something separate. Some people like to cook those, that's like a thing. I definitely I don't mind the eating experience, but I think the average person gets a little thrown off by these weird soft things that you can maybe chew or not. And I to us we just separate those off, we trim off all the meat, the the little rib tips go in the stock pot, and we just we keep them out of the customer experience.
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+[45:19] All right. Now let me let me get because I had some people that ask questions, I want to make sure they tweeted them in. I promised I would ask you these questions. Okay, ready? From uh Ryan Briggs via Twitter.
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+[45:29] Uh was very glad that you're gonna be on, considers this lucky. For Easter, uh, they did two to uh they did two three rib roasts, which actually I think are a nice, it's a nice size for home. Anyway, so if you're gonna, but you're gonna do two of them, why not just do a whatever, whatever. Uh to my untrained eye, they looked very similar. When we cut them, one was shot through with cartilage.
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+[45:49] I guess we we talked about this a little bit earlier, uh, I think, and the other was all muscle. Both tasted good, but the former was harder to cut when on the plate, and the texture slash mouthfeel was worse. What's going on? Is there some way to discern which cuts are likely to be like this when examining meat at the grocery store? Alternatively, is there a good way to avoid this if I talk to a butcher?
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+[46:08] Appreciate any advice. Thanks, Ryan from Toronto, by the way. Ooh, okay. So yeah, I think this actually probably goes back to your conversation, your your point about the ribsteaks and uh meat glue earlier. I'm going to so my number one advice is go talk to a butcher.
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+[46:24] Uh because things like this are the difference between shopping from a butcher who's going to be more knowledgeable about the cuts and hopefully be able to customize a little bit towards your needs rather than shopping off of a grocery store shelf. Where everything is just pre-cut, and you know, to the untrained eye, you might not notice something like that. I'm gonna guess. So, okay, the rib section, which we you know break out of that center loin of the beef, is at most seven bones long. So we cut the rib, you break you break the shoulder from the rib loin between the four fifth and sixth rib.
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+[46:57] Is that right? Yeah. Um, there's 13 ribs, right? So you the five ribs stay on the shoulder, the next seven become the rib loin. And that so seven bones is the most you can have.
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+[47:08] If they bought two three bone rib roasts, it is very possible. I'm gonna say this took me a minute to I didn't process this earlier, but I think our conversation helped. Maybe the butcher started with a seven-bone rib roast, and they more or less cut it in half to create two three-bone rib roasts, and that's what that person bought. So that would mean that the the section that was the front part of the rib, as it's transitioning into the shoulder and starts to have other muscles grow up around it, like the walnut and the rib cap and other, like a little bit more connective, you know, slightly sinewy things. Um, you know, those those real shouldery rib eyes, as I like to call them, is very different than the rear half of the rib loin, where it's starting to transition into like the center amoin or strip loin, and the loin eye is getting bigger, and some of those connective support muscles are starting to fall away.
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+[48:01] So I'm gonna guess that they really prefer the eating experience of the strip loin, where you have that one sort of more tender, larger, consistent muscle and not all those support things against uh around it, and they're not really huge fans of the you know, sort of chuck end of the rib. I'm I should just tell you that I know we're talking with our voices. I'm making so many expressions with my hands to try to explain this. But a quick Google would would show you, you know, um, the sort of one of those cut marks in a cow, and that rib section you can see how it's you know starts closer to the shoulder or the head and it continues to the middle. So when I'm looking at stakes uh at you know, at a hopefully at a butcher, but most of us, you know, don't aren't necessarily that lucky at it at a supermarket, like you know, you'll notice you notice when you're looking between what I call it the cap, I don't know what you call it on a ribeye and the thing.
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+[48:56] Some have much more of that, you can see it, that gray, that gray kind of cartilagey connective tissue that you know is not gonna render or or go away. And some doesn't. Is that just based on its position, or is that also cow to cow? A little bit of both, but it's gonna be more the anatomy for sure. Um, because the rib is the rib is actually like a very transitional section of the beef.
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+[49:18] Because that that short line, which is where the New York strip comes out of, and that the tender one is in it, is like the center middle of the back. If you think about the idea, if we crawled around on all fours all day, you know, our backs would not work. That's like the muscle that holds, you know, we stand up tall, right? So that the muscles running down our back support us from end to end all day. I mean, not me, my posture.
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+[49:37] Mine too. I actually have a really bad hunter. Um but if if we crawled around all day, they wouldn't work very hard, right? So the that center of the back is one of the less active, more tender parts of the beef. But as you move forward on its back towards its shoulders, which it leads to walk with, you know, every single step that works, that rib is really connected to that.
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+[49:58] So just a lot of, you know, other hardworking muscles and that sort of like said, that kind of sinew connective things grow up in there to support all that activity, and that's what ends up in in your roast. Um, I mean, the real thing is like my cooking tips to to rib roast is that you really gotta cook those things low and slow. Like a hot fast roast, you could do it on a strip loin, but on a rib-eye, if you want all that fat and stuff to melt and actually taste good, you gotta take your time. Yeah, I uh again, if you have the meat glue. If you have the if you have the meat glue and you have the whole section of like, you know, however many ribs you buy, you can you can with a knife carefully peel back that cap, like all the way all the way down to where it joins what would have been that bone that you normally take off.
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+[50:49] You know what I'm talking about? And then take like you can see that the stuff that's nasty, then. You can rip that off, and then if you want, you can also peel in and like take out the fat walnut area, render that out, use it to make Yorkshire pudding, definitely don't throw it away. Then roll that whole sucker back together, let it sit for four hours before you do anything, and you're good to go. Um again, I that's I'm not saying to do it at the shop, but I'm just saying that like I have done this and people they love it.
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+[51:20] You know what I mean? Like they love it. I get that. It's it's super interesting. Like um the rib section, so we only really get I like to cut my ribeyes an inch and a half thick.
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+[51:30] Uh that's just kind of like I think that's a nice successful thickness. It's not too thin that they're gonna quit cook too fast on you, not too thick that it's gonna be challenging to consistently cook them through in a pan. Um, and you get about give or take about eight ribs off of the beef, the size of beef that I'm raising, I get about eight ribis. That's not that many. And from end to end, the first one that you cut from the rib that's closer to the chuck section looks like a chuck steak.
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+[51:53] I mean, it's crazy. There's all these, you know, strip strips of fat and other muscles and things wrapping all around it. And then the eighth ribeye, that's the last one before you get into the short loin, looks like a New York strip on a rib bone. They're they are just they are so different. And it's the same thing on pigs, the pork chops.
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+[52:10] Um, so that's it's kind of fun at you know, at a counter if you if you have a relationship with a butcher, they might actually say to you, you know, I would say to someone, well, what's your what's your style? Like, you know, do you like them? Do you do you like something a little more fatty? Are you interested in kind of chewing for flavor? Do you want a nice, tender, consistent end to end eating experience?
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+[52:28] So you mind, in other words, do you mind by the way? John wasn't saying no to you. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, but uh stop that. Stop that.
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+[52:37] Stop selling customers what they want. Uh like, so in other words, like, do you feel that there is a customer who wants each part, or do you feel a little bit guilty selling like the good part to this person and the other? No, I totally I totally think I mean in this context, I think there's definitely the person who wants both parts. I mean, I like the chuck the chuck ribs, but I um the the chuck rib steaks, but I will really um I tend to cook them a little low and slow and just kind of get a good brown at the end so that all that fat melts. And then you asked me about it being animal to animal.
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+[53:09] That's another thing, like genetics and diet will really play into these things. Um, certain certain breeds are predisposed to have um for the muscles are different, uh, like texturally, whether they even uh a muscle that should be tender, the the level of tenderness and sort of the the tightness of that muscle fiber and the way that it grows and develops between different breeds will be different. Some yeah, some breeds are like predisposed to uh you know, for it to intermuscular marble, uh intermuscular fat, which we call marbling. So those things really do make a difference. Um, and you know, but that's not something hopefully your butcher or whoever's sourcing that meat has some knowledge about that and is you know kind of working with farmers that are that are giving you, you know, well-marbled tender beef.
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+[53:58] But right, but some of it's complicated. I mean, some of it's I mean, like I've read studies where you know, industrial studies where it you know it's difficult for them to determine, you know, e even in an industrial level from cow to cow, some things are just gonna be different. Like, you know, uh for a long time, because in low temperature cooking, when you're cooking for a long time, some some cuts, I'm looking at you, any cut from the round will like some will go intensely kind of livery, that metallic livery taste, and some won't. And so it's like this off-flavor that even industrially they haven't been able to figure out how to pinpoint exactly when it's gonna happen and when it isn't. But that's one of the reasons that for like low temp work, I stay away from the round entire.
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+[54:41] In fact, I try to stay like what's that stuff. What's a round good for besides besides beef jerky? B beef jerky is delicious. Yeah, I mean, rounds are just like, let me tell you, as a whole animal butcher, it is such a high yield part of the animal. Like their legs are big and heavy, and all these muscles, they're all the same.
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+[54:56] They're these lean muscles that don't have a ton of intermuscular fat. They're active, you know, so they're they're kind of tough, but they don't really render tender because there isn't anything to melt in between them. It's like it's it's hard. It's hard for us to use them because I don't want them to just all end up in trim and ground beef that's too much. And people, you know, you can only get people to eat so many London broils.
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+[55:19] I mean, I do think that a top round makes a really beautiful roast beef, uh, if you're doing it in a setting where you have the ability to like use a slicer and slice it thin. Right. Because you can you can cook that through to a pretty beautiful rare, mid-rare. There isn't a lot of like you know, there's nothing like sinewy or or you know, unpleasant in it. And then if you can slice it thin enough that you don't really mind that it's not that tender, it makes an awesome roast beef.
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+[55:43] But for home cooks, that's not that easy to do. And yeah, it's like those those steaks are just not that interesting. We make in in colder seasons. I do like lean stew beef personally for my customers. Um, if you're not trying to make a bourguignon or something like that, where you're going for fatty stew, I think the average person doesn't want to cook a stew and then have to let it cool and skim like inches of fat off the top.
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+[56:06] So, you know, if you're really gentle and you you kind of give it the time to um to kind of cook and break down and become tender, I do think that lean stew beef is is a thing that can be successful. But yeah, rounds are rounds are so hard. Um but back that to your thing about like the industry, even in an industrial setting where they can control a lot of things, you know, like they have a ton of control over the breeding and feeding of these animals. You still have to remember that they're beings. You know, they it's just like people.
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+[56:32] Like you and your sibling could genetically, you know, be so similar in your DNA, and you could be so physically different. Like, you know, one of you builds muscle really easily and is kind of like you know, athletically inclined, and the other person does not, or your everything from your temperament to like your appetite or how physical you like to be, or how you respond to stress or extern external things. Those are all really individual from person to person or animal to animal, and they will all affect meat. All right, I got this from Barb, uh I got I gotta from Barbara Benson via Twitter. My new organic butcher is a good old boy who I'd like to turn on to Chinese cuts of meats.
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+[57:11] The cuts in my Asian market are so interesting, but his meat is better. What's a good resource to help these two people, the the butcher and Barbara come together on this? Ooh, this is such a good question. Um, I wish I had an obvious answer for the resource. I wish this person was my customer and they wanted to walk into my shop and tell me what their cuts were.
+
+[57:30] Um I mean, if if the good old boy is a whole animal butcher, uh, he should really be able to cut anything. So I think it's just a question of you know, finding some recipe, like going online and finding some recipes or looking for what those cuts are. And I always just tell people, like, bring me your recipes. So it sounds like this person is having a dialogue with someone at a counter. Um, if you were to bring me a recipe and show it to me, it they might be calling something by a different name, but I could probably Google it, or I could, you know, look at what the process is and make a recommendation.
+
+[58:01] Um, I do have some customers, I've had customers over the years that are doing more like traditional Chinese dishes and asking me for things that I wouldn't normally cut, and I love it. Um start a dialogue, bring your bring your smartphone. Yeah, yeah, bring bring your smartphone, exactly. Like just kind of look at it over the counter. But yeah, that's I've done the I've done the reverse.
+
+[58:20] I've gone to um butcher shore uh Asian butcher stores uh in Chinatown where I live and tried to get like weird things from them and had them actually laugh me out of the store when I finally got the translation right. Yeah. What do you try to get out of curiosity? Uh so remember like years and years ago uh on um the original Japanese iron chef, there someone was using uh uh I think it was pig bladder as a non-papillot kind of a situation, and I was trying to find any source. So like I was going to stores that I knew were illegally selling pig blood, and I was like, these people are catering to their customers regardless of the law.
+
+[59:00] So I was like, psyched. You know what I mean? I was like, maybe I can get the same way that my old Italian butcher uh when I used to live uh in um in the garment district, like he could get me lungs to make like soufreet, like the like my like my uh father-in-law used to have when he was a kid, hearts and lungs. And um, and you know, he knew me, so he would, you know, he could get it. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[59:21] But um anyway, so yeah, they were like, when I finally got the right translations for pig bladders, they just laughed at me and kicked me out of the store. So yeah, the USDA won't let us have any of that stuff. You gotta like know someone who has, you know, the inside tip to get it, or you need to know people who are farming and harvesting animals where they can just save them on farm. So speaking of that, like awful stuff, like you only get like six beef hearts a week. What do you do with that?
+
+[59:47] Uh I like it when people want to cook them. Uh I definitely try to encourage that happening because I love heart. I think it's so good, raw or rare. Um, you know, there's like a lot of traditional dishes from around the world that are like you know, marinate quick sear heart. I love heart tartare.
+
+[1:00:01] Yeah. Uh because I like to use I like to use more active muscles for tartar. Like I don't like it to be mush in my mouth. I like it to have a bit of chew. So I think that's really nice.
+
+[1:00:09] But um, if we don't sell the hearts whole or portion to people, we make a beef and beef heart grind, which is really cool. Um, like a 50-50 blend of our our trim plus beef heart. So it's like a really iron forward, it's like eating a ground-up hanger steak. Um it's got kind of a that's the Detroit chili base, right? That's Detroit Chili Base.
+
+[1:00:29] Yeah, they have beef heart chili. See, you learn something every day. Uh I I had customers, when I was in Berkeley, I had customers coming to me all the time trying to figure out how to sneak organ meats into like their kids' diet, and they were doing disgusting stuff. Like one somebody once asked me to grind liver into a sippy cup. Oh, oh.
+
+[1:00:46] And I was just like, please don't do that to your children. Oh, God. Well, that's remember old school, old, old school, like old, like my grandma's generation. Like you push liver into kids' mouths because they're like, it's good. Eat the liver.
+
+[1:01:03] You know what I mean? Like, yeah. There's some people who are still trying to do it. I'm like, you were gonna ruin them for life for something that could be good. So so I started recommending this like 50-50 beef heart grind as a palatable and I think delicious alternative to getting more like organ meats and iron dense stuff in a grinds.
+
+[1:01:18] Now we we do that all the time. Um and we also make a pet food, like a raw pet food grind where we'll use like fresh beef plus opal meats and grind it uh for people on with dogs on raw diets, which is cool, but it's kind of sucks too because that's really just because enough people aren't eating the ovals that we're like, well, maybe they'll feed them to their pets. Well, so do you take all of your like I know you have trim, which is useful, and then you have quote unquote waste. Is the waste go to like dog food? So our waste, um, if my processors have cut relationship with we all work with rendering companies that are able to take our meat waste and turn it into like you know, upcycled second use products.
+
+[1:01:57] In the pro in the slaughterhouse setting where they're breaking our beef initially, most of them have relationship with rendering companies where they're producing enough, you know, quote unquote waste um that it can be picked up fresh every day and used for like pet food and secondary edible products. For me, we don't quite produce enough waste, and I actually pay the rendering company to take my stuff away, like they don't pay me for it. Um I just kind of do it to be responsible and keep it out of, you know, like not just throw it into landfills and make sure we're using it in some way. So I pay for rendering and it comes weekly. Um so what we do is we uh we say that it is refrigerated and we keep it nice-ish.
+
+[1:02:35] Um, but ours all goes to like secondary use. I've actually looked up where it what it goes to, and it's kind of interesting. The list is is fascinating. Like you think like makeup, but it's really like explosives and like glue products and other things, but rendering rendering external trim beef fat is so nasty. Yeah.
+
+[1:02:54] The smell of it is just so nasty to me. I mean, I don't know, like by the way, if you want tallow, real render good stuff, you guys sell it, which is awesome. I only ever see lard in my neighborhood. I never see the tallow in in uh in pints. Awesome.
+
+[1:03:08] Yeah, I will tell I will say that the difference between so my my main thing at Primal 2, it's important to note that like we I only work with farmers that are raising fully pasture raised, and in the instance of like beef, lamb goat that are ruminants that they're fully grass fed. Um so all of our beef is 100% grass fed. And I think that fat is the most telling thing in the diet of an animal. If you are not really that accustomed to grass-fed versus like, you know, kind of more commodity or grain finished beef, and you want to taste the difference, you really want to taste fat. The meat will taste different, but the like I think that the fat from corn fed, sort of, you know, traditional industrial beef to me tastes like cardboard.
+
+[1:03:49] It's just like so flat. There's really, there's no nuance to the diet of that animal, so you're not gonna taste it in the fat itself. It's just gonna be kind of flat, kind of waxy. It's not gonna be, it's not gonna melt even that nice. The grass the grass-fed beef or like the pasture's pork fat is really complex and flavorful.
+
+[1:04:04] It tastes like grass and the variety of that diet, and it tends to have a softer, um, just I think more palatable texture when it's rendered and it melts. And I don't know. I think that like the to us the smell of rendering beef fat into tallow is just like just smells like burgers all day. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Well, it's because you don't render the nasty stuff.
+
+[1:04:22] Yeah, no, no, no, we send that to the rendering plant. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy to use just egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U.S.
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+[1:04:44] H R N. That's J U dot S T slash H R N. Made from plants, just egg is a better egg for you and for the planet. It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable.
+
+[1:05:02] Just egg uses less water and generates fewer carbon emissions. Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J U.S. slash H R N.
+
+[1:05:20] That's J U.S T slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble. Great for omelets, frittata, stir-fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre-baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads.
+
+[1:05:44] Chef Jose Andres calls Just Egg mind-blowing and bon appetite says, it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu. Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.S. H R N. We have to go in like five minutes, but I have another question from chat that I feel compelled to ask you.
+
+[1:06:09] Uh Van Groff asks, at various times over the years, the price of certain cuts of meat have gone from inexpensive to not so inexpensive. In some cases, pricing out the communities that once enjoyed them. I'm thinking oxtail, lambshank, skirt stick, and even chicken wings. Since you butcher whole animals, you sell everything. What what cuts are currently on the upswing and which ones, if any, are dropping in price?
+
+[1:06:32] Um, yeah, this is the market demand is just so fascinating, to be honest. Um, and that's really what drives pricing. And even as much as I'm able to, in some instances, equalize the price of our meat because we buy whole animals, I still need to, at the end of the day, it's like people will still pay more for ribeyes and they'll pay less for London broils. And I, you know, we need to sort of we need to kind of get back like a blended profit off the whole animal. So I still sort of follow market demand even in our whole animal pricing.
+
+[1:07:03] And the reason why a lot of those things were cut were were cheap in the past was because people didn't know what to do with them and they were hard to use and inconvenient. You know, it's like Americans really value convenience, right? We want quick cooking tender stuff. We don't want to take all day and and use the cheap off cuts that are delicious if you're willing to like you know take the time to make them that way. And it's like the the upside is that people have gotten more educated about the idea that some of those things are delicious.
+
+[1:07:30] We have a lot of tools at our disposal like sous beat and instant pots that make it more approachable to do those things. So really as you know there's just there's more demand overall in the market uh people want more options more cuts those things are the the demand is just really just increasing the market value of them and and pricing people out. And I mean it's a you know price is always kind of a loaded topic too because ultimately like all meat should cost more. Really it's like if people at the end if if people really would eat oxtails and all those things all the time at the end of the day what would happen is not that they would get they would be get cheap again. It's that the cost of like ribeyes and strips and stuff would get less expensive.
+
+[1:08:09] Yeah. I don't know if that's really a great idea. Oxtails are so expensive now right they've been expensive for like 20 years off almost, I feel compared to what they used to be. And even just like hangar stakes is like a false thing. It's like the only reason why they were ever cheap is because when when butchers like you know, uh like you're talking about in your family, that they had whole animals to cut, there's only one hanger steak, so they just didn't even really bother trying to sell it because there's one of them.
+
+[1:08:32] They like put it in their pocket and took it home. So the, you know, the the butcher's family ate it and it was kind of considered butcher's cut. Or you know, they had these things that there was only a couple over there were cheap, and they kind of tucked them aside and gave them to their best customers. And now it's like we are all there's so much demand for everything. You know, you asked me at the beginning of this whole conversation about these off-cuts, like baseball steaks or ranch steaks and what you know what those are and why we sell them, is because everybody wants a steak.
+
+[1:08:57] Like everybody walks in, is like, I'm looking for a steak to cook. And sure, I want to sell all my ribeys and strips, and you know if it's not Valentine's Day or Christmas, I probably have plenty of those to spare, but not everybody wants to walk in and spend $25 a pound. So we have a lot of customers to satisfy that want quick cooking, you know, palatable, somewhat tender, convenient steaks that aren't going to break the bank. And there's just only so many of those on the animal, so we're always looking for more. So, like the clod, that that wonderful sounding part that you mentioned earlier, the clod heart is a muscle in it.
+
+[1:09:29] It's kind of like the tricep of the beef. And uh, you know, while that is a really active part, again, that single muscle, it's kind of shaped like a football. If we unearth it, we take all the sinew and external things off of it and we portion it into steaks. Uh, we call them ranch steaks. They're kind of surprising, they're lean but surprisingly tender for coming from the shoulder and a nice affordable, quick cooking steak.
+
+[1:09:50] We sell a ton of them. Hopefully the cow doesn't do too many dips, huh? Right, yeah. I mean, thankfully they walk forward, not backwards. And like the sirloin tip, which is part of the round, as you asked me, like one of the harder to use, kind of leaner parts of the beef.
+
+[1:10:05] So the sirloin tip, it's also sometimes called the knuckle. Um, it's one of those muscles in the leg. I was always trained to cut sirloin tipstakes out of it, and one half of those are really chewy, and I don't think they're great. Um, but that muscle is actually like if you look at it, there's a clear seam and you can separate into one half. Well, there's a couple things you take off of it, but the the thing we would stake.
+
+[1:10:24] So one side is kind of flat and lean, and it makes great tartare, maybe like stir-fry or something like that. But it is a steak, it's a little too chewy. The other side, if you seam it off, it's a perfectly round cylindrical muscle with a seam that runs down the middle. And we portion those into steaks, and they look like little flat baseballs, like a cross section of a baseball. That's why we call them that.
+
+[1:10:42] And that muscle, when separated from the other one that is kind of tougher and more active, is actually again surprisingly um you know, on the tender spectrum and quick cooking and lean and convenient, and we sell it for like $12 a pound or something. And every week when I'm trying to figure out how to fill the shop, how to make everybody happy, there's just not enough quick, convenient steaks to go around. So it's really important that we just kind of like educate people in a new ones to try. Alright, cool. Here's the last question.
+
+[1:11:08] Matt, last question, all right? So uh he heard you from from Martin Martin Schwab. Uh now, uh Heather, are you familiar with uh Ikijime fish killing techniques? I am, yeah. Okay.
+
+[1:11:20] So uh for those who are listening who aren't, uh techniques of fish killing that preserve the texture of the fish, brain kill and then spinal ablation, and it's a real thing and it really helps. So you can go if you care a lot, go read my old cooking issues uh posts on it. There's like thousands of words you can read. Anyway, is there uh are there any serious thoughts on using uh the Ikijima method on mammals or birds? And I'm gonna say, let's open this up to have you heard of anyone doing interesting uh do thinking about using alternative slaughtering techniques to try to increase the quality and or the um uh welfare of animals.
+
+[1:12:00] Yeah. So I mean, we're always thinking about this, but we can't have this conversation without talking about the USDA. Because unfortunately, in America at least, um, in order for us to harvest and sell meat to other people, so this is if you're someone who's like, you know, boldly raising animals and harvesting them for yourself, you can do whatever you want. But if you are working with a farmer, they're raising animals, you want to harvest them and sell them to other people, they have to be slaughtered under USDA inspection. And the USDA is very strict about steps that need to be taken, you know, for both humane handling but also uh you know preventing issues that that they foresee.
+
+[1:12:40] So so our hands are a little bit tied there, but I guess you this is kind of interesting because you put know more about um this than I think I do. Uh but my my understanding of the goal of that process is that um that like needle, the needle into the spine or brain um is just like deadening brain function, right? Uh well, so even after the brain is dead, the the sp the spinal cord is still sending uh can you know can like signals, contraction signals to the muscles, depleting the ATP faster, and so the fish is gonna go into a harder rigor. So whereas a hard rigor in an animal, you know, a land animal might not be bad because when it comes out of rigor, it'll be more tender. Yeah.
+
+[1:13:22] Um in a fish, it's gonna lead to to uh you know, gapes in the fillets and all sorts of problems. And so like it's it's kind of weird. In a fish, we're always trying to preserve firmness, you know, not dryness, but we're trying to preserve firmness as opposed to it being kind of flat, flabby and mushy. Whereas in an in an animal, we're almost always shooting for for tenderness, right? So it's kind of an there, they're actually kind of cross-purposes, but of course fish, yeah.
+
+[1:13:45] This is fascinating. Because I mean, yes, so um, so in slaughter of all the like mammals and quadrupeds, there is always a step in slaughter where they have to be stunned or something has to happen to that's that's our idea of humane harvest. So they have to be stunned so that we deaden the brain function so they don't, you know, feel or understand anything that's happening, and then we can um, you know, bleed them out and finish the harvest. So like that that's that's a necessary step that we always take in inspected slaughter. Um, but then it does have to go through all the steps of rigor and kind of come out on the, you know, you have to wait for that whole process to finish.
+
+[1:14:23] But I'm always seeking, you know, carcass confirmation and firmness, and we don't always achieve that on the other side. You know, sometimes what from other factors, whether it could be stress and harvest or chill time or other things like that, um, you'll actually end up with something like tenderness and confirmation are not the same thing. You know, like that sort of like soft floppiness is not a good is not tenderness. Um so I'd be kind of curious. I mean, I have no idea.
+
+[1:14:47] I don't I don't know of anybody who does this, and I'd be so interested to see what the effect of this would be. Um I will say that poultry slaughter, um not on a large scale, but uh you know, on a large-ish scale of what we do, most poultry farmers are working under state inspection and they're harvesting on their farms, and there is not as much um oversight of about how those animals are harvested, and we want to just be humane about them. And most people are just like slitting or beheading the chickens, so it's kind of happening all in one step. So I think that would be something where people could honestly consider that process because I I would I have no problem with it because it it does take that humane step, you know, like as long as there's something that you're doing to deaden the nerve uh or the brain function, um that's sort of the best we can do to guarantee humane harvest. And if you could do that, uh you might end up with incredibly again, although I guess in poultry firmness is really not a good thing.
+
+[1:15:45] Again, it totally, yeah, it it totally depend like all the cooking techniques are different and what you're shooting for is different, which is why, but I I'd be interested in trying. I was trying to work on this with a doctor friend of mine and I wanted to actually anesthetize anesthetize an animal and then um you know remove its blood under anesthesia and perfuse it with uh you know something else. So you're bleeding it, it's anesthetized and that bleeds and kills it in one step so it's fully bled and to see what would happen. And people's reaction when I brought it up were like I was literally compared with Dr. Mengela.
+
+[1:16:21] And I was like this is an animal I'm gonna eat and it's actually I don't know what it says about me but I'm so interested and I'm like can we do this? Yeah I mean look I mean I'll I can put you in touch with him and we can run the test he's in Boston but I can you know we he's willing to run the test. He'd rather run it on a smaller animal first like a rabbit or something like this. But I mean again I think anything that leads to something more humane like I know people were interested in doing um uh uh anesthesia like n like nitro like straight nitrogen environment anesthesia on stuff like pigs but old school old school uh slaughterhouses I mean everyone's worried that it's that the heart's gonna stop and they're not gonna bleed out right exactly uh so and and but people are using like captive bolt guns. And I mean it's a it's a second and it does have that same effect of you know deadening the the brain function.
+
+[1:17:07] Um but yeah, there's I mean the US it's like the USDA is restrictive and yet to your point, it's like they are really just making sure that it is humane, that that the timing of the the end of the function of the animal, you know, appropriately coincides with it actually you know bleeding out but not experiencing pain or stress and all this stuff. So when my uh when my stepfather was a very small boy, this would be in the 50s, uh he maybe this is why he didn't become a butcher. He was at the slaughterhouse. It wasn't one of his dad's uh cows because they did he didn't have his own slaughterhouse. And he he really only really did his own slaughter on the on the lambs.
+
+[1:17:47] He would have other people do the slaughter on the cows. And uh they had uh the the person at the time they were using sledges and uh the someone stunned the cow wrong, the cow got off the the somehow got off the the gamble hook and went after my stepfather apparently uh he he still he still eats meat, but he uh maybe that's why he decided not to become a butcher and become a psychiatrist. It's kind of tragic. I mean, I've seen like this, it does happen. It's like sometimes there are just misses and it's and that's a moment that's incredibly stressful for the animal and the people are involved, and it's really unfortunate.
+
+[1:18:22] And there's so much work and control that goes into avoiding that. Um but okay, so sorry, my brain is now spinning about this. So have you ever like you know that when you harvest chickens, and it's not it's not often that we would eat beef without it going through the full rigor process and kind of coming out on the other side of it. Although I'm always fascinated that I know that there are many cultures, not American, that typically harvest and immediately cook meat. Now, I've always been taught that if you don't wait out that rigor process and kind of let all of those those things happen, um, that the quality of the of the meat would suffer.
+
+[1:18:54] And if you've ever harvested chickens and tried to eat them the same day, it's terrible. Nightmare. Well, some people love it though, that's the thing. It's just what we what we're accustomed to or like we want tender chicken. Yeah.
+
+[1:19:04] I think like, you know, if you're if you're doing soups or or stews and you like a chewy chicken, I think because like there are cultures also where chicken is eaten the same day that it's uh, you know, I have some nightmare chicken slaughter stories from some friends of mine that I won't go into, different places where you know it's like the closest the chicken is to a live before you eat it, the better. You know, uh and the same actually frankly also goes some people like pre-rigger fish, you know, like really crunchy pre-rigger fish. Um I always kind of wondered if there was something where like and this is like crackpot, not at all scientific, but it's like if you if it happens fast enough, can you be ahead of that whole process? I mean, I've only done it in f in fish, and like when you kill a fish right away and you you know cut its muscles off, it's it's kind of crunchy. I don't think anyone most people don't like it's hard as hell to slice.
+
+[1:19:54] Yeah, and like the chicken, you know, if you were to uh harvest chickens and then try to eat them just like for lunch that day, you know, the the meat would would not pull off the bone and everything is really chewy and kind of hard to eat, and it's very it's it's not a good experience. Yeah, it's also one of the reasons why I think uh like low temp like sous-view like whole bird cooking is kind of sometimes people don't get it right because it's not gonna render out like the stuff where the muscle connects to the bones doesn't render as well as when you're doing a high temp, and so it tends to pull off the bone in a way that people find unpleasant. And that's I think half of the problem of work doing um low temp on things like birds is people don't r re-jigger their expectations of what the meat texture is gonna be like when it comes out. Right. Um on the other side.
+
+[1:20:38] I didn't even get to talk to you about like how much does being a graphic designer help when you look at a at an animal and you're like tracing it with a knife? Uh you're not allowed to answer that question right now. We have to come back on for a future show. Clearly we need a meet hotline. I don't know.
+
+[1:20:53] Yeah, yeah. Oh man, I forget. I was gonna give you one good uh old school butcher story. Are we allowed? All right, from the 40s.
+
+[1:21:00] It's from the forties. It's from the forties. All right, well. All right, right. So my stepfather's my stepfather's father was uh he was in the military, so you know, like like a lot of people who were of fighting age were during World War II, he was off in the Pacific.
+
+[1:21:14] Uh he was a quartermaster, actually. Uh, and um, so his dad was who had you know come over from Italy in like 1908, had uh was running the shop. Now meat was very strictly rationed at that time, but because like you know, the the family butcher shop had relationships with the farmers and would do all their own slaughter, they would slaughter extra animals that they weren't allowed to under the meat ration. This is terrible, this is terrible, I know, but whatever. So, like, but they would have all this extra meat.
+
+[1:21:43] Everyone involved is dead, so I can talk about this. Uh, and so uh, and you know, this is the one time when like you know, hardcore racism helps you out. So, like, someone complained he gets brought into court because he all this extra meat that he was selling to people kind of under the table, aside from the ration cards. And uh you know, so Dra's grandfather, you know, so my my great-great grandfather on that side spoke, you know, perfect English. But uh when he was brought into court, they were asking him about all this meat and all this stuff.
+
+[1:22:12] He goes, eh, no speaking English, no speaking English and and and the judge was like, he called him a wop, said, Get the hell out of my court, and threw him out. Meanwhile, like literally, they were packing money into barrels because they were the only people in the s in the in the south of uh south end of uh sorry in the north end of Boston that had meat to sell. Anyway, butchery. Uh Heather, thanks for coming on. I hope you had a good time.
+
+[1:22:37] I did. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh uh come back sometime. We'll talk more meat. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:22:46] Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[1:23:01] Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage Underscore Radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community?
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+[1:23:22] Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. Listen up, hunters and anglers. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife just made the upcoming season a lot easier.
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+[1:23:41] The new My WDFW mobile app is here, and it's your all-in-one tool for the 2026-27 license year. Buy your licenses, see your hunting and fishing licenses, tag your elk, deer, turkey, even black bear. All on your phone. Harvest reporting and catch record cards have never been easier with the offline mode. No more lost tags, waiting for mail.
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+[1:23:59] It's all on your phone. Just tap tag and enjoy the great outdoors. Download the My WDFW app today. Available in the Apple App Store or Google Play. Washington's Wild just got a lot easier to enjoy.
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+[1:24:09] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:26] Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. Muckle Shoot! This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. It's a better egg made from plants.
+
+[0:36] Bring more customers in your doors with just egg. Start with a free sample at J U.ST slash H R N. This episode is brought to you by Tuktukbox. Sharing Southeast Asian stories at your doorstep. Learn more at tuktukbox.com.
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+[0:55] That's T-U-K, T-U-K Box.com. This week on Meet and Three, we dedicate our stories to elders, grandparents, and family members who came before us. Some people called on the phone. What time is your appointment? Mine's 2.45.
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+[1:13] Our friend the dentist, he was 3 30. And it was like a social event. It's a small island. A lot of them I knew when I was a kid. So it was, you know, to really help them feel like they they weren't alone.
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+[1:26] It's currently this communal nature of food, and so it can operate as a bridge. Um, not just between neighbors and friends, but also between the living and the dead. Listen to Meet and Three wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues Coming to you live! I'm actually in Stanford, actually, right now.
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+[1:57] I'm in Stanford in the house of Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. How are you? Uh I'm okay.
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+[2:03] I'm okay. Yeah, we're vaccinated, so uh we're good. John is downstairs. How you doing? Doing great.
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+[2:09] Yeah, he's downstairs. We've uh relegated him to downstairs because uh he had to bring uh so he has a dog named Koji. Oh, we have Matt in Rhode Island. He had uh John has a dog named Koji for the uh it's the second Japanese-based K dog name, Japanese food K dog name that I know of during the the pandemic, but he didn't want to leave leave uh Koji alone, so Koji is downstairs because at Nastasia's house, there's like like a lighthouse person's stairs that you have to go up, and the dog was like, nah, nah, not going up. Not going up.
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+[2:46] Right? Is that pretty much accurate, John? That's very accurate, yes. So it's not that we're making you stay downstairs like like at a kid's table at Thanksgiving. It's that did you have a kids' table at Thanksgiving when you were growing up?
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+[2:57] Yeah, I did. Did you like the kids' table or hate the kids' table? I like the kids' table because I'm not enough to speak with the adults. Ooh. Yeah.
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+[3:04] Yeah. I was uh I grew up until I was much older, only child, so I didn't have a kids' table. I was like, you know, I was always with the adults, but I always dealt better with adults anyway than with uh people my own age. Which is weird because now I don't deal well with adults. Uh Matt, how's uh Rhode Island treating you these days?
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+[3:24] Uh things are things are good. Very excited that all the flowers are popping off. You know. Yeah. Happy days.
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+[3:32] We could talk about that later, but uh right now, most importantly, we have a special guest today. We have uh, so you might rem well you know him from what he we have Frankie Salenz is here at Frankie Cooks. Uh you could uh check uh struggle meals on Taste Made. But listeners of this show who didn't already know him, know him as the person that wrote John into cooking for Novak Djokovic when he was doing the US Open. How you doing, Frankie?
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+[3:57] I'm doing great. This is uh this is true. John and I did do that, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, as someone who actually likes to cook, like, what was it like to be like, how's about everything is room temperature with no salt?
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+[4:11] Yeah, well, it's actually this is the third year I've done that for him, but this year was particularly hard, obviously, with the pandemic. So John was a big, big relief because not only were we cooking for Novak and his team, all of whom who have different diets, we were also cooking for uh like Novak's host family, nine other people. So we were basically a full-time restaurant for uh 25 days or something, because it was a week of quarantine going into the Cincinnati Open, which was in New York, going into the week leading up to the US Open, going into the US Open up until the point when he hit the lineswoman in the throat with the ball by accident and got disqualified. Yeah, no, now how did that if he had hit her in the throat during the course of normal play, it would have been fine, right? That's it.
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+[4:58] If it were like if it it had deflected off his racket, actually that happened in his next tournament, and obviously that's fine because that's that's an accident. But if you're frustrated and you're just whacking a ball without looking, and it unfortunately collides with another atom, causing irreparable harm. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So so but he he hit someone in the throat in the next tournament, but it was cool. Yeah, because he was like going for the ball in the middle of the point.
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+[5:23] Sure, he was. He hates that line. He hates that person. He's he's like a pitcher pushing people back. He's pushing them off the back off that line.
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+[5:29] Boom, in the throat. I I feel bad for him. I mean, uh, I really do. You know, he's just like, was it was it on a serve? Was it one of those like hundred mile an hour serves right in someone's throat?
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+[5:41] No, no, it was just like, oh darn, I missed the point, and then I he just like whacked a ball underhand without looking, and uh it just unfortunately hit this woman right in the Adam's apple. No, I mean, well, that's hilarious. But I mean, no, the next tournament when he did it, when he clearly did it on personal. And he's like running for the forehand and doing his infamous gumby reach, and then it like hit the outer edge of the frame, which is not hitting the strings, and then shot off on a 45 degree angle instead of bouncing back, you know, and then that hit the person in the face. Speaking of Gumby, uh, are you familiar with how thin Gumby's arms are?
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+[6:18] I mean, I assume they get longer as they stretch out, too. Yeah, but they're th but they're thin in general. So Nastasi and I are trying to angle for a weak emoji, and I imagine that it's kind of like a gumby arm bent in the strong position, but weak. I have a a prototype of the in case anyone's interested, I have a prototype of the weak emoji, but like there's no way the strong emoji is what? The strong emoji is just like a bicep.
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+[6:41] Yeah. Like, well, it's the it's the fist and the bicep, but like with a very pronounced elbow and like, you know, the person has also like decent forearm definition, but it's mostly about the the bicep. So I have a prototype of the of the weak emoji, which is the same motion, but weak. What do you think? Yeah, no definition.
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+[7:01] Sounds good. Yeah. Sounds great. Yeah. I mean, isn't there a need for it?
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+[7:05] I mean, I feel like Nastasi and I say weak almost as much as we say strong. And when the strong, whenever I type strong, it's like, how about just bicep? I'm like, okay, bicep, bicep. But like when I type weak, it just says weak. Which is weak.
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+[7:19] Weak. Definitely. Who do you submit a new emoji to? Who governs? What's the governing body for emoji?
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+[7:25] I don't know. Oh, I'm helping out with food emojis right now. It's a pretty crazy process that takes like two or three years to get it done. It's like some internet governing body. Oh, where's that?
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+[7:38] But what about there's a need for this? This is overlooked. It takes them 20 seconds when they want to change an emoji. When they figure out that an emoji is offensive and they want to change it. It takes them 20 seconds, but it takes them like two years to make like a slice of pizza.
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+[7:55] Yep. Yep. Very different. Is the standard emoji, since you're clearly the expert, John on this, is the standard pizza emoji a pepperoni or a plain slice? I don't know.
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+[8:08] There is some variance between the different operating systems, like between Samsung and Apple, and then Google has their own, so there's like a little room for personality. But I know like a lot of the factors that go into the decision making is like, is it similar enough to other foods? Um that increases the chances of its being accepted. They're also doing a big push for What would they want it to look similar? Yeah, so that it can, you know, sort of be interchangeable.
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+[8:36] So it can have multiple meanings, not just the one. You're like, no, no, that was that wasn't so it's plain pizza. That was actually a key line pie. No, it's pepperoni. Well, that's crazy because pepperoni makes it into a pizza.
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+[8:46] Otherwise, it could be a slice of anything. It could be a slice of anything. That's true. But now apparently what's John is telling me is that they want it to be a slice of anything. Ooh, it's quiche.
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+[8:56] No, it's pizza. You know what I mean? It would just be funny if like the people of the Naples, Vera Pizza Napolitana, like came along and said, it is offensive that you're using this abomination of a pizza slice, uh, the one from New York, which is uh fast food, and ours is tradition, and you must change it immediately. Of course, it's funny that you call that that they would make fun of fast food considering that there's cooks cooks in quotes. I'm putting cooks in air quotes.
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+[9:20] 90 seconds. 90 seconds, yeah. Cooks, quote unquote. Let me ask you a question. I like Neapolitan style pizza.
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+[9:28] It is not a replacement for pizza, though. Yeah. Right? It's not a replacement for pizza. Listen, um Dave, I think we can agree.
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+[9:37] Like, we're in this world of it's really hard to say what the best is. There's just a lot of variety, and I think that's a win for everyone. Yeah, I mean, there there are bad things. That is true. Like this people I don't believe in the best, but I do believe in the worst.
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+[9:50] There are things that are just bad. Doesn't mean just because there's no right answer doesn't mean there aren't wrong answers. I I can get on board with that for sure. Yeah. Now, uh, okay, so the reason uh that we uh have you on is that uh John thought you might enjoy discussing uh we're we're talking about and it this fits in with I guess with with struggle meals and a lot of stuff you've been working on during the pandemic where you've been doing a lot of uh kind of lower cost uh fun meals for people to do.
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+[10:19] Is it what you say it's accurate? Is that an accurate pitch? Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. So uh uh we thought that you know you might be a good person to talk about about starting a battery to cuisine.
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+[10:30] Say say it say it in uh super French there, John. Say that what Battery de cuisine. Say it in super French. Batterie de cuisine. Oh, yeah, wait, one more time.
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+[10:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Batterie de cuisine. Yeah. Uh you know, can you say it like you're uh an a 75-year-old French man? What?
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+[10:51] Batterie de cuisine like that. No, you have to be more like put more pain in your voice. Come on. Come on, man. Uh batterie de cuisine.
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+[11:02] Better, better. Better, better, better. Nice. All right. Uh look, John, yeah, you sign up for it, you sign up for it.
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+[11:10] This is what you get. You know what I mean? Like, you know, as we say in my job, yeah. You get what you get, you don't get upset. Um so we're gonna talk about that, but I figured maybe we rip through some um you want to try to rip through some questions so people don't get pissed?
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+[11:26] Yeah. Well, wait, before you do questions, oh can I just interrupt one second and just tell you uh I took a an FCI class with you something like 10 years ago on uh low temp in Sous vide. Uh I think it was over a three-day weekend. It was it was so insightful. You have you had prototypes of Searzole, it wasn't quite out yet.
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+[11:46] I still have my uh very original uh run, by the way. It's running great, still on the original screen. But I just want to remind you of something that happened I thought was so funny. There was a woman from the health department there, and you had all these different sous vide eggs at like half a centigrade different uh temperatures going up to show us the difference of how the yolks set. But then you also said, you know, over time you kill the bacteria and prevent the uh the food uh foodborne illnesses.
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+[12:10] But she she kept sticking her thermometer and being like, it's not 80 degrees Celsius, so therefore it's and you're like, but it's been in the bath for an hour and a half, and that kills off, and she just kept poking. And you're like, it's physically impossible for it to be 80 if we're sous-eating at 64 or 55 or whatever. And it was just really funny to watch that. Like, and everyone in the class became really annoyed with this woman whose thermometer was saying exactly the temperature of your poly science circulator. But it's very interesting to hear the flip side uh uh like the from the the the student guest perspective on that because when you're teaching those kinds of classes and Nastasia used to get real mad at me.
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+[12:49] She's like, why don't you just uh family show I had to bleep myself. I was thinking I was thinking in Nastasia mode. She's uh she's like, why don't you just you know tell them to screw off? And I'm like, I can't. Was she a student or was she the health department?
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+[13:04] Oh, she was a student, okay student. Well, the city, New York City was paying for her to go. Actually, no, she was not New York. She was somewhere someone else's health department. I don't remember exactly what, but she was a uh I forget what the name of it is, but like a a validator, like a process validator and health department person.
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+[13:21] Yeah, and she just wasn't she wasn't bending her mind around what we were what we were dealing with. Um god, I remember that. But that you uh you weren't the the one where the last day of class I I was food poisoned, were you? That was the best class I ever taught because I was uh I I had been See this what I'm saying, like this is what people I think like this is this is where I think people need to be. There's there's things that you can say I don't feel good and not do.
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+[13:49] And of course, if you're gonna get someone else sick, you should never do it, but you're not gonna get anyone else sick from food poisoning. So I taught a class and it was a low temp sous- vide class, and it was the day we used to people so the way we would do it is we would have depending somewhere between like 12 and 20 people in this uh sometimes more in this sous vide class is three day intensive. And so we needed to pump out like like we would have we're gonna do short ribs, we don't do one short rib. It would be like we would do like five tastings, five different tastings where we're testing a different variable of short rib, and you'd have like four or five on each plate, and we would have to put those out like this out of a tiny kitchen to everyone. So we deep fried everything.
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+[14:33] And so, like, but they didn't have a deep fryer, so they were doing it on pots on the stove, so that the oil was getting hyper abused. So I was food poisoned, and I'm having to like teach, and all of this like overheated oil smell is like going in like at me while I'm food poisoned, and every like break or when as soon as I could get one of the other teachers, like Nils or Erve or whatever to talk, I would go into the other room and throw up in a trash can and like rinse my mouth out and come back out. It was the worst. But that's what I'm saying. That's dedication, people.
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+[15:10] If you say you're gonna do something, you do it, you know? I'm with you. I'm with you. All right, that was a great tangent. I loved it.
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+[15:16] Awesome. Yeah, that was it was awesome, man. And you gave out these amazing books with like oh, it was awesome. Anyway, thank you. I'm a I'm a huge fan for a long time.
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+[15:24] Oh, thank you. Well that I you know, I have to say, like, that class, like, you know, it's a now the school's closed. I think that class was good. Uh, people I think found it useful because you can't the thing you can't do when you're cooking, right? Like when I mean cooking, I mean cooking professionally, or even at home, right?
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+[15:38] Is you don't have the time to like run through all of the different iterations at the same time. No one does. And you know, and even in a cooking school, unless you're uh making a class for it, you don't have the time. So, like the fact of doing that, or uh the fact uh when you're writing a book, which Frankie, I hear people are pushing you to write a book. Are you actually writing a book?
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+[16:00] This is so cliche to say, but the proposal has been in the hands of the powers that be for almost a year at this point, so you know, I remember the first time when the FCI wanted me to write a book, and I didn't want to write a book because Nathan Miravold and Chris Young and all those guys were writing their book, and so I didn't want to I didn't want to like dip my toes in that water. Yeah, so like they were like, you want to write a book, and then the person who I was writing the book book proposal, she's like, could tell by the polls, like, you don't want to write this book. Of course, what she didn't realize is I don't want to write any book. It took Maria Guarnicelli, my editor, to beat the hell out of me and just scare me into writing a book. You know, she literally, her eyeballs looking at you could make you do anything.
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+[16:50] Stas, how how nerve-wracking was her look, her gaze. Yeah, she's the only person that has scared you. Yeah. Oh, by the way, uh, I need to send this to uh to Alex. I was going through, so when you write your book, hopefully your editor will do the same thing.
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+[17:03] It was very nice. Maria sent me the very first copy of Liquid Intelligence, which became the bar copy at Booker and Dax, actually. I still have it. It's completely beaten up with like notes and the margins and everything. All the bartenders used it at BDX.
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+[17:15] And she sent me a like she wrote on uh she didn't used to like to write in the book, so she put her business card with, here it is, it's beautiful, congratulations on it. I just found it the other day. It was still in the book. I didn't take a picture of that, put it out. All right, all right, all right.
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+[17:29] Let's get to what we're going to do. You want wait, so should we answer some questions you said, Stas? Yes. Alright. Oh, before we answer questions, sorry, more tangents.
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+[17:37] I hear you live close to one of the Leatherman caves, Frankie. One of the who? Wait, John made this up? Leatherman? Leatherman.
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+[17:47] Frankie, you just moved to a place in in Westchester, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, so you don't know about the Leatherman? You moved on to the Leatherman loop and you don't know about the Leatherman? All right, when you're back, because you're you're filming, you want to talk about what you're filming now, or you don't want to talk about what you're filming.
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+[18:03] So you can't. I mean, we're we're filming uh like a one-off uh branded struggle meals thing tomorrow. I'm in California right now. I'll be here while I got here yesterday and I'm leaving the day after tomorrow. Cool.
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+[18:14] Uh and then I'm and then I'm back to unpacking bags. Yeah, so listen, so listen. So the Leatherman, every people like people who know me know that if it wasn't for the fact that I had a family, I would live the life of the Leatherman who walked a loop every, what was it, 32 days, Stuzz? 27, 32 days, something like this. He walked a loop, basically, from like uh Stamford around up to I think he made it this far south.
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+[18:43] In New Haven, too, I think. Well, in New Haven, no, but well, in other words, like it's a loop, so you can start anywhere on the loop. I only went counterclockwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was well okay, we'll start where near where you are.
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+[18:52] Briarcliff is the cave, the famous Leatherman cave, I think, which is closest to where he died. Then he would go up, over near Pound Ridge, up, over the border, up all the way almost to Middletown, over to the Connecticut River, down through where I used to be in Chester, all the way down, over past Saybrooke, up through New Haven, and then I forget where he connected through. I thought maybe he made it through Stanford. Anyway, he just walked this loop. And he was clothed in uh clothing that he had sewn out of old discarded leather boots, hence the leather man.
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+[19:24] And uh yeah, that was his whole life. And that's the way I would be living if it if I didn't have a family. So, so you know, there but for my family, I go. So you need to and interestingly, they're called Leatherman Caves, uh, because this is where he used to live. And then they're dotted.
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+[19:38] Like there used to be one in Chester. There's but the there's a famous one in Briarcliff. They're not really caves. Do you know I don't know if you know this, if you just moved to the area, but there are no actual caves in this area. They're all just like rocks piled up against each other.
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+[19:49] So you don't we don't have real caves. Well, I'll keep my eyes peeled. I'm uh they have a of the Leather Marathon. They they have a Leatherman run. How long is the Leatherman run take?
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+[19:59] In March. I don't know. Like five days, what is an ultra-marath? Yeah. I'm not uh I don't know if you know this, Stas, but uh I don't really have the body of an ultra marathoner or the desire.
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+[20:11] My knees would be like, what? You want to do what? I don't know. Um Frankie, you an ultra-marathoner? I I ran the New York City Marathon a few years ago.
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+[20:21] Yeah? Just to say you could or no? Uh because I used to be like an endurance cyclist, and I just thought, let me give this a try. Um I took Advil right before the 59th Street Bridge. That really helped.
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+[20:34] Yeah? Yeah. And then I was sick for like two weeks. It's definitely not good for the body. No, I mean, it's good if that's what you're good at.
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+[20:41] I mean, there's some people who they could just run all the time. It doesn't matter. Like they're they're they weigh they weigh like one half of one pound, like their joints are used to it, like you know. It's just like, you know, it's for them, it's walking. Anyway, wait, Nastat, I I can't see.
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+[20:54] Oh, that I don't know, I know the circuit, but I'm asking how long the people do they people run the whole thing? No, it's a shortened one. Weak. Yeah. We need that, we need that emoji.
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+[21:04] Weak, yes. I was just gonna say I was a little behind there. I mean, here's the thing. Here's the thing. If you're the leather, if you're doing the leather man, do the leather man.
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+[21:11] Don't be like, I'm walking like it's like it's like, I don't know. Uh it's just intensely weak. Like, like you gotta commit. Either Leatherman or not Leatherman. All right.
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+[21:14] Yeah. Uh all right. So Adam Sousa, okay. Adam Sousa wrote in from Portland, Maine, trying to acquire a roto vap from my cocktail bar and was wondering if you had any recommendations as far as brand size, etc. I'm pretty new to the roto vap world and I'm a little overwhelmed.
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+[21:34] I appreciate any help you can offer. Cheers, Adam Sousa. All right, real talk, Adam. Uh if you're the owner of the bar, then like the the problem with it is this the maximum amount of product you're gonna get out of a rotov is about a liter an hour. I just want you to think about that for a minute.
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+[21:52] You're gonna get a liter an hour. It's gonna cost you, I I haven't used any of the inexpensive new ones. So if someone wants to send us a new, like super cheap roto vap, the only roto vaps that I've used are either the ones I've built myself, which I wouldn't recommend using, or the really expensive ones, the cheaper ones that I have used that are made by like IKA or Ica, I would not wish those on my worst enemy. We flew once to uh England. Remember this, Nastasia?
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+[22:19] We flew to England, first class, by the way. Uh they flew or business, business. They flew us business to uh do a roto rotary evapory dem uh a rotary evaporator demonstration. And when we showed up, even though they had spent untold zillions of dollars setting this whole thing up, they had purchased a what to me was a crappy budget uh roto vap because are you ready for it? It was blue.
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+[22:44] Literally, they bought it because it was blue and it was therefore on brand, and it was the worst rotor vap I've ever used in my life. Because Ica, IKA. Because if if if it doesn't seal, you know, then you have to throw it away. It didn't seal properly. That was the issue.
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+[22:59] So you it's very hard. If you want to have it just to have it, and you want to use it, like bars who put it into their programs, they need to budget a lot of money and staff time towards running it, or else like have people that want to run it for free or or whatever. Another thing you can do is use products that don't take very much time to make, but it's a it's a big time commitment, not to mention illegal, doing uh alcohol-based distillations and water-based distillations ain't worse bit. Uh, well, I'm not saying that. I mean, I am saying that.
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+[23:35] I'm being unfair. Uh, but you also need a really good chiller. So um, I mean, maybe I should start looking into it again. I think a lot of people have come out with uh less expensive roadovaps. If I was gonna do it now and you didn't want to have it be totally have someone looking at it all the time, I would, and you had it.
+
+[23:52] I mean, maybe you're rich. Let's just assume you're extremely rich. Then uh get the ones that have auto distillation based on temperature differential with an anti-foaming thing, and then all of a sudden, roto vaping's a lot easier, but of course your pocketbook's a lot lighter. All right, is that enough on rotovap people? Are we good?
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+[24:07] Yes. We good? Yes. We good? All right, one more, and then we're gonna get into what we got Frankie here for.
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+[24:12] Uh, maybe two more. Martin Schwab wrote in, and I have something to say about this. Uh, low temp steak, pan fry, then oven or inverse, what's better and why? Greetings from Vienna, Austria. Uh love, good work, keep it up.
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+[24:26] Love Vienna. Do you know the next trip I take to Europe? I'm thinking I want to fly into Vienna and then maybe do the Eastern European thing. Because Vienna's so awesome. I mean, I think we can all agree Vienna's awesome.
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+[24:37] But I've never been to the U.S. Dave. This question was exactly something that you touched on in the low-temps sous-ide class, because you did sear before, then low temp, don't sear low temp and sear after, and you did before and after. That's right. We did them all.
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+[24:44] And I think that's the answer. I like how you say though, before and after. There's no such thing as inverse. I don't know. I mean, I know where it started, but like, like, who wrote that there was a way to do it such that because since before anyone here was born, some people have put their roasts into the oven on high and then lowered it and ridden them out, and some people have put their oven their roast in the oven on low and then cranked it at the end.
+
+[25:20] Since time. Since for free king ever. This is how people have chosen one way or the other. It's a before or an after. Now it is true that in a restaurant, when you do a steak, it was always high freaking, high freaking heat, and then you throw it in that oven to ride out until it's done.
+
+[25:42] We all know this, except for the fact that really what happens is this. You you sear off a boat ton of those suckers before service, and then just have them festering on a rack somewhere where it stays mildly warm for a while until it's time to throw it in the oven to bring it up to temp. We all know that's how it happens. Am I right, John? Am I right?
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+[26:00] Yes. Yeah, that's how it works, unless you're a steakhouse. Unless you're a steakhouse. Um, anyways, um, so let's just talk about not let's not talk about this as inverse or not inverse. Let's talk about before or after.
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+[26:16] And the issue is this. If you sear beforehand and after, it will be the best. Right? Assuming that what you want to do is have the post-sear time be as short as possible. Because you'll be able to build an equivalent crust much faster if you have already seared it once before you try to sear it again.
+
+[26:39] Does that make sense? Now, you could sear it for a boat ton longer at the end and get the same effect, but then you're in danger of overcooking. Since I'm a lazy person now, I typically do after only, but I now, as opposed to Frankie, you might be interested in this, as opposed to the way I used to do it, I now drop the temperatures of my steaks and ride them at a low temperature. I take everything down to 50 for the last 45 minutes, and then I sear from 50. So I can stand a longer sear on a thicker steak now without uh taking it over, and so it's not as important that I do the pre.
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+[27:16] Does that make sense? Yes. That's like a really really interesting way of like sort of getting the benefits of cryo frying without having that equipment and eliminating the gray ring, it seems. Well, yeah, so we've done tests on the cryo frying, and it would like you like you're lowering the temperature at the end, so that yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the way through.
+
+[27:35] And what it does is also like honestly, so you need you want to cook the stuff up. Here's the thing with with proteins, right? So, like with the meat proteins, it's true that most of the what happens to the texture happens fairly quickly, right? But if you if you take uh a ribeye, let's say up to uh you know, what let's say, let's say you're a 55 per Celsius, so you take it up to 55. I like it to just touch 55, and then I like to drop it to 52 and ride, and it'll tenderize at 52, but it's not gonna get that little bit tougher, you know what I mean?
+
+[28:15] It'll look like a 55, so people won't be squeamish, and it will um in in it and it's and it won't be squidgy like like a 52 like like a like a blue, because like a lot of people like blues. You know who likes blues? Cesare. Cesare Casello loves a blue steak. He loves to kick he loves to walk up, stab his uh, you know, his uh Keanina cows in the throat.
+
+[28:36] Yeah, sticks the knife right in the can in his throat, bleeds that sucker out, and then likes to throw that sucker on. He's like he's he's more of a ch sh eat guy. Am I right, Stas? Ch eat. I think most of us don't like that squidgy raw meat action.
+
+[28:51] He doesn't do that to restaurant people, but like to for friends, when he's cooking for friends. You know what I'm saying? So anyway, so 55 and then drop down to 52 and let it ride, and then 50, then sear. I think that's the best way to do. Austria.
+
+[29:05] Austria people, let me ask you this. Frankie, what do you think? John also, Nastasi's not gonna care, although I'd like to hear her opinion as well. I think there is great honor in traditional bread crumbed schnitzels. They don't need to be panko, not everything needs that crunchy panko nonsense.
+
+[29:23] You can have a traditional Austrian schnitzel. Am I right? Yeah. Right. See, Nastasi agrees.
+
+[29:30] Thank God, thank you, Stas. Like, all I'm saying is is that not everything needs to be hyper crunchy, people. Let people let things be what they're gonna say. I prefer Schnitzel without that crunch, because it's schnitzel. Cause it's schnitzel.
+
+[29:43] Cause it's freaking schnitzel. I did not know you were gonna be on board. I appreciate it. Hey, we're gonna have Sears all back in stock in a little bit. Are we allowed to talk about this?
+
+[29:52] Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's up to you. You're the you're the person who gets to decide whether I'm allowed to talk about it. I like how Nastasi's like, I think you could talk about it. They're being airshipped via China and we will be selling them through another company.
+
+[30:06] Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So, so, okay. So, Amazon.com is still. Please stop sending us emails. I know we said this before, but please stop sending us emails about how, you know, I don't know.
+
+[30:22] If you have a lawyer that you know that works there, that's helpful. But uh anything other than that. If you work at Amazon and you personally are good friends with the algorithm that is saying that we're selling a menstrual cup, if if if then, you know, if that algorithm is your close personal friend and you can call that algorithm and be like, yo, will you just call this a break? Please, we want to hear from you. If you're an if you're an Amazon entrepreneur, please get in touch with Dave Arnold.
+
+[30:51] Exactly. Otherwise, I know your intentions are good, but it's not gonna be helpful. So what we're doing, we have a plan to finally get them back on Amazon, but that's like a four or five month problem, believe it or not. Uh we're just gonna sell these suckers on eBay. So the ones that are gonna be on eBay soon, and Nastasi's gonna announce it, they're gonna be delivered.
+
+[31:11] We're trying to get that fast and free. We're gonna try to keep it um we're we're we, you know, Nastasia has a new delivery mechanism set up for you, and they'll be available soon on the eBay. Uh, and you know, that's all we can say about that, right, Stas? Yes, that's all we can say about that. That's all we can say about that.
+
+[31:29] But soon, they are in the air right now, right? But we only have a limited quantity, so when you see them, grab them. Yeah, and then, you know, maybe in a month or two we'll have more newsletters and work who knows. We're gonna announce it on our newsletter first, so you guys should sign up for the newsletter through the link in uh the Instagram bios or you know, Booker and Dox.com. Uh it turns out though it is hard to it is hard to sustain a business when you haven't sold a single item since November.
+
+[31:54] It's difficult. Anyway. Is this all related to the people that didn't burn off the uh Searsol screen thing and then Amazon is that what this is about? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[32:04] Yep. Ugh, what a what a disaster. Yeah. And we have not sold a single thing since November. Oh well thanks.
+
+[32:10] We haven't yes, we have not sold a single thing. Beginning of December. Yeah. And then of course the uh the fa the factory in China still hasn't given us a date on spinzall, so we're not selling that either. Literally have not sold a single thing.
+
+[32:25] Cocktail cubes are available. Hey, someone out there. Wait, so what did we agree on? Sear before and after? If you have the time, right?
+
+[32:40] Otherwise drop. Or otherwise drop the temperature. Yeah, drop the temperature and you can do a harder sear. Uh hey, someone out there, uh, why don't you make a fake safety complaint about the cocktail cube and then we can just really be completely you want to take us down totally? I mean, again, if we sold every single cocktail cube, our profit would not buy us lunch.
+
+[33:01] Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like have uh the tennis player, what's his name? Law lob one. A cocktail cube.
+
+[33:08] Oh my god, can you imagine? Throw that at somebody's throat. Oh my god, that'd be amazing. Oh my god. Uh geez Louise.
+
+[33:17] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy-to-use just egg. You can get started with a free sample.
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+[34:00] Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J U.st slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble.
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+[34:52] This episode is brought to you by Tuktuk Box, a Southeast Asian woman-founded company with a mission to share Southeast Asian culture and experiences through food. They offer curated subscription boxes and products, partnering with vetted small business owners and local farmers from Southeast Asian communities. Their signature Southeast Snack Box is available in three funky levels. Perfect for all palettes. You can either purchase a one-time box or sign up for a monthly subscription.
+
+[35:26] TuktuckBox is sharing Southeast Asian stories at your doorstep. Get your first box at tuktuckbox.com. That's T-U-K T-U-K box.com. Hey, Frankie, unrelated question. Let's say I were to send you out to Shake Shack.
+
+[35:49] Let's say you were to order a bunch of Shake Shack stuff, and I asked you to not have secret sauce on one of the burgers, but the the the burgers, one of the burgers came back with sauce. Would it be appropriate for me to like break the entire kitchen and freak out or not appropriate? No, I just eat it anyway. Right, right. I'm making fun because I know that you were in a situation which I will not say what it was, but like you had someone lose their mind on you because there was sauce on the burger.
+
+[36:16] Is that not true? I'm not gonna say who it was, because that would be rude. But it's true, right? Uh you're not there for that one. I've had a lot of unreasonable things where I'm like, really?
+
+[36:27] I I don't know what's going on. What's the most unreasonable thing? If that didn't strike a core, what's the most unreasonable thing that someone has lost their mind on you about uh Oh, it was an entire day. I was catering for something, uh, like it was so freaking hot. This woman had an amazing kitchen, and she made me work in the garage because she didn't want her guests to see me.
+
+[36:47] There was no air conditioning in the garage. I like set up a bunch of induction burners and and circulators, and I had my cerez all and everything. And then she proceeded to take a bunch of mind-altering, I I'm assuming uh anxiety drugs or whatever. And she just became more and more unreasonable. And then she put her brother-in-law in the kitchen with me so that he could do his famous something.
+
+[37:08] I don't know what it was, chicken fingers or something. And now he's using up my burners, and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Ah, it was so infuriating. His uh famous uh Swanson's Hungry Man Chicken Fingers or whatever. Oh my god.
+
+[37:23] It was it was like, I was like, actually, I have to kick you out. I'm really sorry, man, but like inappropriate. Or go use the actual kitchen that I was planning on using that they, you know, dangled in front of me as what I would be using. Yeah, it feels like a brother-in-law could probably get away with being inside the house. Come on, guys.
+
+[37:41] That's what I'm saying. Instead, he's in the garage with me, like, geez. Here's a note to I I know that like there's gotta be a good chunk of people who listen to this who like to cook but aren't professional. If you hire a professional to come into your home, venue, whatever, right? It is not the time to show off your XYZ.
+
+[38:05] Right? It is not the time to show off your XYZ. What you need to do, because that person is nervous about pleasing you and doing a good job because it's their profession, and all they care about is trying to do a good job for you. Stay the hell out of their way. That just stay the hell out of their way.
+
+[38:20] That's all I'm gonna say about that. It's like I know that you're probably a great cook or bartender or whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just you've hired someone to do that, you need to let them do that. You agree with me on this, Frankie?
+
+[38:33] Uh I'm uh you are dead on, and I and I know that you would be, and John would be, and anyone who has worked back of house or done any catering, uh, would agree with that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Here's another thing. I'm sure there's someone listening here and and knows what Frankie said was hot as hell, and he couldn't control the situation because the lady was high on drugs and was becoming unreasonable.
+
+[38:54] Now, this kind of stuff happens. If you're about to do your first catering thing, or you're changing your job or whatever. Planning an away game, i.e., cooking not in your own kitchen for the very first time. Oh boy, are you in for a treat? Uh and by that I mean your life is about to become a living hell.
+
+[39:15] Uh don't do don't cook stuff that is the stuff that you would cook if you're at home. Think bulletproof. I mean this. Think I think I know what you were referring to before, and this was again cooking in someone else's house. Yeah, yeah.
+
+[39:29] You know, I negotiated with this other woman, very, very wealthy. Like her husband ran uh, you know, uh one of these fun things with hedges. Yeah, um, and and she's negotiating giving me all this trouble about this, like I just want to hire someone to help me for 250 bucks to like run from the kitchen back and forth. And then she's like, and your fees too high because four of the people are they're just kids. Anyway, the four kids turned out to be six foot five teenagers that eat three times more than the average human.
+
+[40:00] Um everybody wants everything, you know, differently, and I uh and and more of it. And then the best was as these things are coming back because that she wants two degrees more on you know a steak or whatever, she she then goes, and can you refill our water glasses? They're all empty. And I'm like, That's what the 250 dollars was for. Like, I will I need that gumby emoji because it's weak, and I also need to be in six places at once.
+
+[40:23] Yeah, I find that like a lot of people don't appreciate the work that other people do. You know what I mean? Like they just don't, they don't get it. They don't get it. Uh, but here's some like for instance, uh, it's coming up on summertime.
+
+[40:35] You're gonna do an event somewhere. Don't do ice cream. Don't do it. Yeah. Uh like, like, I don't uh I don't care that you think you can do it because you know what's gonna happen?
+
+[40:45] Uh the freezer's gonna go down. I guarantee it. Freezer's gonna go down. Uh there'll be a wedding cake in the freezer and you can't use it. Something.
+
+[40:53] You will get hosed. Like, if you are counting on something happening, you get co like, don't like that thing that you like to cook that's only good when it's piping hot, don't make that thing. Don't make that thing. Make something that's gonna taste good uh when it's been sitting around because uh the people that maybe did or didn't get hired to uh serve the stuff out to run it, maybe didn't show up that day. Maybe they're high out of their mind.
+
+[41:16] Uh you know, maybe it's a teenager, maybe, maybe whatever. Don't do that. Think bulletproof. Think bulletproof. And prepping at home is the biggest one though, Dave, doing equipment that you know, being 90% done, so you can just kind of finish things off.
+
+[41:30] If anything, you just have to deal with the person who's paying you so much less, and that in itself is a win, right? Yeah, right. Here's another thing. Uh, equipment you know, also don't assume. In fact, assume the opposite.
+
+[41:46] You will maybe get a plug. You will not get necessarily two 15 amp circuits that are separated from each other. Never assume you were gonna get two 15 amp circuits. Plan your whole life around if you need to bring picnic burners. If you whatever you need to do, just don't plan on, even if they swear on a stack of Bibles that you will have the circuits that you need.
+
+[42:11] Don't trust it. You won't. We say, you say? You won't. You won't.
+
+[42:14] And I've totally done that. Two induction burners that keep shorting the other one out. Yeah, it's infuriating. Oh, yeah. It's funny when it happens to somebody else at a demo.
+
+[42:22] I've seen that happen many times. I was at a very famous chef's uh place and they were running a bunch of stuff and they were running them off the same sockets and they were kept on blowing out, and I'm like, I was like so happy. I was like secretly so stoked. You know what I mean? Um hey, here's the thing that nobody does.
+
+[42:38] In fact, my wife won't let me do it because she's an architect, right? But if I could do live my life, speaking of like setting up kitchens, like I would color code my I would color code my sockets so that I knew what circuit they were on, or put the circuit number on the socket plate. So, like I on my so this if you're outfitting a kitchen, I said this a million times, but if you're outfitting a kitchen in a new place, or if you own the place, right? So if your typical counter is like, I don't know, four four feet long or whatever, and if you if you're gonna have three flat five feet, whatever, if you're gonna have three sockets, three quads, three different circuits. Now, one of them can be the same circuit that the lights on, like one of them can be the same circuit that something else is on, have one that's not for the really high power stuff, and this way you're never worried about it.
+
+[43:26] Like, you know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? It's you know, people people skip that step, they get all the gear and they want to run it all at once, and uh Mr. Circuit Breaker is like uh uh. And this is super important.
+
+[43:37] It's the step before the step of buying all the gear that we geek over. Yeah. Using it. Yeah, yeah. True story.
+
+[43:44] Uh okay. So let's talk about uh outfitting outfitting a kitchen. What do you what do you what's what is your what are your basics, Frankie? What do you what are your basics? Yeah, so listen, obviously, it all depends on how much money someone's got, uh, how much they're willing to spend.
+
+[43:58] I would say in general, with the exception of like maybe wooden utensils and Teflon pans, everything's pretty much gonna outlast you if you don't buy garbage. Um, I still like a wooden spoon. I wooden spoon is on my list here, but I would say for the other things, like those packets of uh six of the tools that you need where they've got like the sort of half-assed ladle and the tongs and then the spatula. I hate that stuff. They they seem so clumsy to me.
+
+[44:24] Yeah. Uh particularly the spatulas. Like you it's so hard to describe, but if you're in a cast iron pan which has, you know, kind of hide sides or something, one of those spatulas is just it's too fat to get under to really scrape the thing off the bottom. So I would say something like uh a fish spatula or a pallet knife, something that's just a lot more low profile and and more flexible is is actually gonna do a better job. Um so your first spatula is a fish spatula?
+
+[44:53] Is that weird? I don't know. It's actually the palette knife first. Um, okay, so like uh but here's the other thing is like I'm sure most people are thinking of spatulas being like the flexible spatula. You should never buy these things as you should buy them individually.
+
+[45:09] First of all, like if you buy a crappy like uh sil silicone or rubber spatula, it will be uh it will be dead. It will be dead within like five months. It will it will flex and crack where the handle is inside of the rubber, and then you'll get that irritating handle poking out and it'll start flopping around. It's terrible. Uh get a decent one of those.
+
+[45:31] In fact, I think uh I I would get one of those, right? Like a decent like silicone one that now, if you're looking at a spatula, it's got one straight side, and then it's got one kind of radius edge on the side, uh, a rubber, a silicone spatula. I don't you like the scopula ones. Do you like the scopula ones, right? I don't like the spuls.
+
+[45:44] I'm not a big fan of any multiple. Yeah, but no, but you know how some of those spatulas like have like a little they're a little bit cuppy. I don't like that. I like them to be symmetrical on both sides. You know what I'm saying?
+
+[46:00] Not not I like the one flat and the one radius, but I don't I don't like it to I don't like it to be like an oyster shell. I like it to be, yeah. Uh I have found by watching my kids and and then also adults that no one who no most people have not been trained to scrape out a bowl properly with a spatula. They leave like like a whole pancake's worth of pancake in in in their bowl. They don't know how to use a spatula.
+
+[46:25] So I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about spatulas for a pan. You're talking about a spot. We're talking about all of them. No, we're talking about all we're talking about. You gotta have a silicon one for one of those.
+
+[46:32] Absolutely. Yeah, totally. But uh I find that I have I have a nonstick because I was testing it, and I had to buy a spatula for that that's made of nylon, I detest it. I I would only use I only use steel whenever possible for those spatulas. And you're saying you'd go for a flexi one.
+
+[46:48] I use a long, I use a a long like pastry spatula, like a like not offset, flat, right? But long. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. For a lot of that. Uh, but I have to say, my go-to is probably just like an old school diner.
+
+[47:05] I have an old school diner spatula I I go for, and I also sometimes like a really stiff freaking one for like getting uh around the sides of like you know, Detroit pizza and stuff. But you could get away with. I think I wouldn't go for a hyper flexible if you're gonna get only one. And my problem with fish spatulas is is that they're rounded on both corners because they're worried that I don't know that you're gonna like stab your friend or stab your fish or something. Like I like a little I I like it can be flexible but I think I need I like a corner.
+
+[47:33] I don't like the hyper French rounded fish spatula just because it's doesn't have that corner. I don't know what do you think? I think I think what you're saying and I would agree with is that it it's so specific to the job that you're doing the tool that you're gonna use it's really no different than like Allen keys or whatever. You can't really make a five millimeter allen key work in a six hole. I guess you could wrap some tape around it and then it'll kind of work but it's also gonna totally stink.
+
+[47:59] So I I mean these are the these are the tools that we're using to create whatever the product is that we're making and the right one matters for the job and the the more you use them the more you you realize uh which is the right one. I'm a big fan of those stiff spatulas also 100% I also think and and correct me if I'm wrong here I think people overreact a little bit with the nonstick pan stuff and metal going to it. What do you think about that? Uh well I'll let you know um I mean I've never had one that hasn't gotten destroyed. Even with the rubber spatula right?
+
+[48:33] Yeah they always die I don't know that's my point. I don't know why. So like if it's disposable and has a lifespan anyway. Yeah that's a good point. I don't know.
+
+[48:42] Yeah but they don't have plastic coated utensils or the piece of metal they deteriorate more quickly. Here here he here's what I hate about the like if if someone finds a good nylon spatula for nonstick first of all like when you use them and then the the front gets that crinkle heat mark on it, detest, detest. And then uh the other thing I I uh I hate is a week. I have another uh I have a nylon one. So for those of you, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know how you're listening to this without ever having cooked, but let's say you've never cooked, right?
+
+[49:15] So what you're doing is you you do the spatula and then you you turn the spatula upside down, handle down, rest on the edge of the pan for a minute while you do something else and you go back. If you do that to those cheap nylon ones over hop, they start curling. They start curling. Ridiculous, absurd. Um, so we're talking about a spat.
+
+[49:34] Here's my another thing, by the way. Like spatulas are fortunately cheap, so it's not a giant outlay, right? Um, I'm not just saying this to say crap on online shopping, go to uh like an actual brick and mortar store, but uh you these are things that you're gonna use with your hands, okay. And uh you know, there's no reason why what I like is what you should like. You need to go try some of these things.
+
+[50:02] You know what I mean? You need to hold it in your hand, you know, like press on it, see whether you like the feel of it, you know, because like what you like might not be what I like, right? I'm I'm with you. And and from this uh this conversation, I would say probably the the outliers here of tools that people maybe haven't tried yet, are the super stiff spatula that's really good for like smash burgers and scraping things off of uh not a nonstick pan and and maybe also that um not offset uh palette knife. Go feel those in your hands.
+
+[50:34] Feel how when you push the the utilized part of it, it totally flexes and sits flat on the surface. And and then imagine scraping that sideways under something that's only slightly stuck to like a stainless steel pan. It's amazing. I love it. Yeah, well, especially for me, because I have a crate maker, like a crampoos, and so like I have one, I have a super long one that goes all the way across the crate maker.
+
+[50:58] So I'm just like, shoop! I can just put it underneath and like all the way through and just free the whole thing. It is it is kind of magic. Also, people, if you're cooking in your oven uh and you need to move like individual things around in your oven, like small things, like those long things can kind of reach in and they're just stiff enough to lift light stuff around. Anyways, um all right, knives.
+
+[51:20] Let's talk knives. People care about their knives. Yeah. What do you think? What's what would you buy first?
+
+[51:26] Well, you gotta get the chef's knife pairing, and weirdly, you have to have a bread knife. Those three. But here's the thing that I'm telling people lately with the chef's knife, tell me if you disagree or not. Uh the bolster, the bolster at the end that a lot of these knives ship with. Um, over time, as you're sharpening this, and if you want this to be a tool for life, I'm finding that a divot forms there, and therefore in the total sweet spot on the end of the blade is never coming in contact with the cutting board.
+
+[51:53] And for me, that's just like great. This knife is useless now. So I would say go for a bolsterless chef's knife. Okay. What do you think?
+
+[52:00] That that is a known problem, right? Which is why like a lot of the Japanese Western ones don't have that. Um they can be sharpened around with enough work, but without in other words, like if you just sharpen down and stop short, you're gonna put that little curve in and it's gonna like go like a butcher's, like if you have like an old school butcher's fillet knife where it just turns into like eventually turns into like you know, this tiny thing. Um this people. If you um if you're just starting out, old school, traditional like German French with the thick bolster, extremely comfortable on your fingers.
+
+[52:46] And if you buy your first Japanese uh well, they I'm sure they're made everywhere now, but what I think of is like. Oh yeah, yeah. But like old school, what would be right? Uh you're gonna you're gonna build up, which is not a bad thing, but it's it's you're gonna build up calluses. So if you like, if you get your new knife without a bolster, and the first thing you decide to do is break down a bunch of pumpkins, you're gonna feel it the next day.
+
+[53:12] Um as uh, you know, even if actually, if you do something like that, uh you know God's love we deliver? Yeah. So like uh the FCI, one of the fun things we used to do is is that the staff for Thanksgiving, uh, we would go and do prep in their in their kitchen, and all of their normal prep people are like going real slow, and they would bring in all the giant pumpkins from the bars and restaurants that had bought them, like giant pumpkins, and then they would turn them into soup, right? So they had to be cut, seeded, and peeled. And so all of the FCI people, we're sitting there trying to race each other through these giant pumpkins to see which one of us is gonna be the weakest, you know what I mean, in terms of like you know, how how how slow are you with that pumpkin you you you moron, you know what I mean?
+
+[53:58] And they handed us these like super crappy, like, you know, like Kmart style uh chef's knives to work with because you had to use their stuff, and man, even though like at the time I was in pretty good knife shape, I got some serious blisters on that. So if you're doing heavy work with a bolsterless knife, just make sure just know you're gonna be building up some calluses. That's all. That's all I'm saying. It's not bad, not good.
+
+[54:22] You're gonna build some calluses. Right? I I I've blistered through several times. Right. But do you remember the first time you ever used a bolsterless knife?
+
+[54:32] Like in a heavy in a heavy environment, like you feel it the next day. Oh, it it hurts. You like literally start becoming like geriatric. You're like, oh my goodness, I thought it was invincible, and I'm like totally whissing out because my yeah. It's like if you don't ride a bike for a year and you get on a bike, you're like, you remember how to ride it, but your butt tells you the next day that you haven't been.
+
+[54:49] You know what I mean? Yeah, that just happened to me recently too. Actually, probably while I was on search for the Leatherman's cave. See? And you're like, see, I'm a competitive cyclist, I can handle this, but your butt's like, nah, you have to keep the.
+
+[55:00] I still feel it right now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so the other thing is that uh I would definitely suggest that you get a 50 50 sharpen or you sharpen it 50 50. None of these like asymmetric grinds.
+
+[55:13] Your knife is only as good as how sharp you keep it. And um, I'm gonna say this. Most 99% of you will misuse a steel. I would say don't even have one. Like 99% of people are gonna misuse that steel, use it as a an excuse for not sharpening.
+
+[55:29] I think um also like you can get one of those super uh expensive uh sharpening setups, but um if you do, you're rarely gonna use it because they take a long time to set up. I would take the time to learn how to use uh I use a DMT uh diamond stone because it doesn't require being soaked, it doesn't require being redressed, it lasts for years and years, and you know, I can touch up a knife in like a minute and a half, and I can get it sharp enough by eye that it's much better than the perfect sharp I could get that I will never do because I'm never gonna set up my crazy complicated sharpening system, which I also own. Right? So the the knives are only not as sharp, the the knives aren't as good as how sharp you could make them. They are as sharp as they happen to be.
+
+[56:18] And so like I would definitely get like one of the get the don't get a weenie one, get the big one, the big DMT, like fine, extra fine. It's a lot of money, and you think that it's not worth it at this point in your life, but I would early on get into sharpening. And you know, uh it takes a while to get decent at it. Don't worry about it, I think. Just like um what I wouldn't do, I hate I hate the double wheel sharpeners, they destroy your knives.
+
+[56:42] I'm just telling you right now, if you're gonna buy a cheap knife, you can get one of those double wheel sharpeners and it will quote unquote sharpen your knife while it's ruining it. You know what I mean? Uh that's that's my feeling on that. What are your feelings, eight or ten? Eight or ten what?
+
+[56:58] Inch. Oh, inch, sorry. Uh probably start with an eight just because it's a little bit more wieldy, you know. But if you're if you're comfortable with something bigger, then go for it. But I think a lot of it depends, it depends on the size of your hand and what you're used to.
+
+[57:12] Like for years I was on an eight, and then I picked up a 10, and it just felt like I had a lot more control over the 10 than over the eight, because I could pull those extra two inches when I'm slicing down, and it wasn't appreciably heavier. And so, like, you know, most of my close-in work is is is close to the back end of the knife anyway. So, you know, for me. I was just gonna say that the big knife doesn't mean that you're cutting with the tip, and it's like, no, if you little stuff that's fine work or whatever down by the heel, absolutely, and you don't even realize that you've got this big Pinocchio nose sticking out the other end. But I would agree with the extra two inches because you need to you need to do that pull to really get the the slice to to happen in a lot of situations.
+
+[57:54] Yeah, but I it's I think it's personal. Like some people like they I uh this is not like a better or worse. I think like you know, again, um you know you're gonna if you stay in it a long time, you maybe start with an eight. I frankly get in trouble. Like, I would start and maybe just because of the way I was raised, I would start with the traditional western shape, maybe the bolsterless if you if you like that.
+
+[58:19] Uh I don't know, like I don't know that I would start with a Santoku style, like by the way, that DMT sharpener, John, let me try that. Uh really really cool. And it's so fast, right? Yeah, and if you don't have a if you don't have a steel or you're suggesting not to have a steel, um, but you know, by the same token, if you're suggesting the person wouldn't have a steel because they're gonna misuse it, then wouldn't they probably also be misusing whatever their sharpening stone is, even though you can just touch up with that? Well, look, here's the here's the thing.
+
+[58:50] So, like I I guess I should like if you have a traditional steel, which is literally just a piece of steel, so what it's it with ridges on it, and it's realigning, it's realigning your edge. It's not it's not actually sharpening. I think the problem is is that when people start actually buying the abrasive steels and then they're actually sharpening on them, I just don't think it's a good way to sharpen. I think using a steel, but like if you've ever seen a butcher, like if they don't have they and they need them, right? Like they're using the back of their other knife as the steel, right?
+
+[59:25] You know, they're like shuck shack shack. You ever watch a butcher? Shock shaq shaq, they use the back of the one knife to steal the other knife because they don't have the time to go reach for something else. You know what I mean? Um, I mean, not always, but uh I think oh, so I see what you're saying.
+
+[59:37] So you don't need to have one because you could literally use the back of your bread knife instead. Like you've got a dual purpose item there, yeah. And I mean, I mean, I think most people are like rather aggressive, I think, when they're pushing on their steel. I think they think their steel is doing something that it's not. I think that most people think that it's sharpening the knife and it's not.
+
+[59:55] Right. Or until they hear that. And then there's two camps there for sure. But the the DMT thing is pretty amazing. And it doesn't like I I have a whetstone that's been wrapped in a rag for I don't know, a decade at this point, and that thing is just you know filthy with red brick color, and it makes such a mess, and uh it's a pain.
+
+[1:00:13] And I have to plan in advance a little bit just to soak the thing. Yeah, I hate that. I hate that. Now, are you gonna get like the perfect Japanese edge on no? But on the other hand, but that doesn't matter.
+
+[1:00:26] Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And also there is a here's another secret.
+
+[1:00:32] Your knives should always be sharp-ish, right? But I do take a little extra care and touch them up if I know I'm gonna be doing something fancy or something that requires like super good cutting. I just do. You know what I mean? It's just just a chance.
+
+[1:00:44] That's pride. Yeah, yeah. All right, what about uh what about uh equipment to buy okay? Well, let's go about this. I think it's important to have stacking bowls and to not put different size things inside of each other because then you're never gonna use them.
+
+[1:00:57] I also think this stuff needs to be out because if it's away, you're never gonna use it. I I like having visual uh yeah, the ability to visually see things. Are you talking about different size bowls stacking inside of each other like the Russian dolls? I hate that. That's no good.
+
+[1:01:12] Yeah, I hate that too. I prefer the same size stuff. Um, same on same. Same on same. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[1:01:20] But like steel steel bowls, like you get a bunch of the small ones, you get a bunch of the medium ones, and maybe like I don't know, I've always been a fan of like two really big salad bowls. And again, like if you're in a small like hotel big, dude, I love them. Come on. Popcorn, French fries, they're so good. Like a salad bowl you could serve, like you could bathe a child in, like, like big ol' salad bowl.
+
+[1:01:42] Really, really big salad bowl. Like, there's nothing more frustrating to me when you're making a salad, you're putting it in that wooden serving bowl. It hasn't been dressed yet. It's to the top, and you have no room to get everything like homogeneously covered by the by the dressing. This is a good one.
+
+[1:01:58] You need a bigger space. Don't listen, listen, listen, listen. When so, like I have one, two, three, four, maybe five sizes of stainless bowl, and I have like six of each, and they stack the thin, cheap ones, right? The ones that sound like ping when you hit them. They're super cheap.
+
+[1:02:19] Yeah. Winkle. Winko brand. And uh, so like go for the bigger one. Always.
+
+[1:02:26] Why? Because you're gonna be tossing stuff, and what's more irritating than having stuff fly out of the bowl when you're tossing it around? Because you're not gonna serve it in that, are you? You like keep your service wear separate from your stainless cooking wear. There's separate ideas.
+
+[1:02:39] Yeah, yeah. Toss it down. I'm also a fan of like uh those serving spoons, you know, those like oversized spoons. I think that's really helpful for basting, for even you know, picking up a little steak in the pan and flipping it over. Again, just something a little more precise, and you can get in with your left hand and the spoon underneath, flip it over.
+
+[1:02:56] I think those are I think those are great. I love that. Wait, but which which which format? Like the the the thin, like semi-cupped ones that you can't really get soup with, but like they're good for like like pasta sauce. Which ones are you talking about?
+
+[1:03:09] No, there were different kinds. It's literally like if you took a standard spoon and enlarged it by 4x. Yeah. No, I I have like a couple like really thin punched ones that I like for for you know, punched out ones cooking. And you also need some slotted, you need a good decent spider for draining.
+
+[1:03:27] Uh if you're not gonna buy a colander, get a decent salad spinner that you can use the inside as a colander because that's how you should be washing all your veg. So a salad spinner sounds like something you shouldn't have, but on the other hand, like I don't know. But you need a colander anyway, so it might as well also hold water. What do you think about this? I think that's a really smart way of getting two in one.
+
+[1:03:46] The only thing I would say is uh, and I don't know the exact temperatures of this, but maybe you probably do. Um, if you're pouring like super hot pasta through a salad spinner's inner lining to separate the water from the pasta, is that too hot a temperature for that plastic? Well, that's a good question. I mean, I've been doing it forever. Uh I don't know how to still walk.
+
+[1:04:09] I'm still walking. So, like, you know, uh that's definitely the way I now listen, people, take the colander out of the salad spinner before you pour it. Otherwise, what what what's wrong with you? You know what I mean? Like, but using it as a colander, I think it it's it's a it's a good move.
+
+[1:04:22] This is why I think you buy a decent salad spinner, uh like a a large enough one. I only make salad for one half of a person, so I'm gonna buy a salad spinner that holds one leaf. No, no, no. Bigger's better. I mean, don't go crazy, but bigger's better.
+
+[1:04:35] And also, uh, I like stainless bowl salad spinners because uh they will crack other they will crack. If you get one that's uh plastic, it will crack sooner rather than later. And another thing about salad spinners, uh, don't leave the water in them and put the cover back on. They will turn into filth machines. Like you're gonna leave some swampy little piece of lettuce in there with the water with the cover on.
+
+[1:04:58] Filth machine. Filth. Yeah, gross. Uh disgusting. What about what about a great man?
+
+[1:05:02] Sargon in the chat wants to know why doesn't the spins all have a version with little holes in the rotor so that it can use it to spin salad. Why? I'll tell you why. Because we could barely china ants. Needs to be at least three times this big.
+
+[1:05:16] Uh listen, I've said this before and I said it again. Those of you out there who rated Zoolander 2 as not a good movie are idiots. Because if you liked Zoolander 1, it is basically the same. And people's reviews were like, um, well, it's like 10 years later, and it's the same, it's the same. If you liked it before, why wouldn't you like it now?
+
+[1:05:35] Right, right. Zoolander 2. Anyway, uh we got like five minutes, so you gotta uh pick your top hits. So we didn't we didn't do it simply because we we can barely get and right now can't get the factory to build the standard one, but I want to build a rotor for it that can be used for uh like centrifugal filtering. So, do I want to do that?
+
+[1:05:57] Yeah, let's see if I can get them to build a regular one first, right, Stas? Yes, because we can't get them to do you know, even do that. Alright, so equipment. What do you what are your thoughts for first first first piece of equipment you would buy? First one.
+
+[1:06:08] Listen, you gotta have some kind of a frying pan. I know everybody says just go get a cast iron skillet. I'm a fan of that. Um, I would say, like, if you just want to level that up slightly, I'm becoming a fan of the carbon steel pans because you still have that ability to just like heat the heck out of it, and yes, it's got a little bit less heat retention, but it's also lighter. Those those those cast iron pans are really freaking heavy, man.
+
+[1:06:29] And I like pan tossing, it's like a fun thing to do. So uh I'm I'm a fan of that, you know. I think the cast iron, like honestly, the best way to find a cast iron is go to a flea market or a thrift store and smoother. There's they're better, like get one that's like 50 years old. Like my favorite one is like I don't even know how old it is.
+
+[1:06:47] I mean, it I I've been using it for 25, 30 years now, and um, you know, it was really old when I bought it. So like uh, you know, I think that that's good. I I I like I I have to say, like the standard all clad style stainless, just because it's easy to clean, easy to deal with, they're not nonstick, but they do like a lot of the stuff. Get here's the thing. Uh don't about made in.
+
+[1:07:11] Have you tried that? No, I have not. I got to tell you. I hear they're good. I I bought a couple.
+
+[1:07:16] They're yeah, man, it's totally well so what's different? It's got some competition. What's different? I I think it's pretty much the same thing. It's just cheaper.
+
+[1:07:25] It's still made in the US. Right. Um, here's a mistake people make. Plastic handles. I don't like plastic handles.
+
+[1:07:34] I like that. That's a mistake. Yeah. I was just trying to fill in the words for you there. Uh yeah, no, like uh you buy a uh a pan and you think that by buying a bigger pan that you've somehow increased the size of your burner.
+
+[1:07:45] You have not. Yeah, true. Uh so people who people who have like it bitty burner, and then they put like a giant fry pan on it, or like, you know, like a like a like a like a giant, like a you know, brazing or big sawtooth thing, like not gonna work out for you. You can stick a giant stock pot on because what the hell, right? Get it, don't spend a lot, don't spend a lot of money right away on a stock pot.
+
+[1:08:09] Don't right? Just don't assume here's the if you need to do some good saute work in in your in your in your pot, right? Uh then uh do that in your in your nice frying pan and then deglaze the frying pan and then put it into your stock pot. But like like the th the thing that you boil pasta in, the thing that you do that, it as long as it holds water, it's good. And let me tell you another little secret.
+
+[1:08:29] Everyone worries about how conductive it is. Uh you know what conducts a lot better than uh your food? Any pan you have. Well, yeah, any pan you have is gonna be a better conductor. Is is it's it any pan you have is not gonna be the limiting rate of how fast you boil water.
+
+[1:08:51] Not covering it's gonna be the limiting rate. But like if you're having like those thin stainless steel pans, I sometimes I would stay away from uh the all-aluminum ones because they get real pitted and they can get nasty and they they dent, and then if you put it in your dishwasher, they get all those weird things and they can have your. No, they suck. I'm not a fan. Yeah, but like they you don't have to get it, like your big pot doesn't have to be expensive, it can be cheap.
+
+[1:09:15] Do you agree with me on this? I I a hundred percent agree with you on that. And also just most people have a four-burner stove. You put a giant stock pocket on it, and and now all of a sudden the other three have been encroached upon, and you're gonna be off-center with any other pan you use, which is incredibly annoying. Right, right.
+
+[1:09:33] Uh for oven, for inside your oven, I would just I would buy a bunch of uh uh I mean most people can can't, yeah, half sheets. Uh if your oven can fit a full sheet, get some full sheets. You you want more half sheets than you think. Um good for even prepping food out, right? Chopping a bunch of Brussels sprouts in half before you blanch them and then roast them.
+
+[1:09:56] I mean, it's just great to have it out there rather than on the counter. It's nice to have them laid all out and instead of a bowl and stuff like that. I I'm a big fan of them for all stages of cooking. Yeah, I would also, and like it if you've ever hung out with like pros who are neat, right? Get like uh get some quarters.
+
+[1:10:14] I have a bunch, I have some quarter pans, and you're like, why don't you eat a quarter pan? Trust me, get some quarters. I have quarters, and then I have even the size that's it's down from that. And I have quarter-size cooling racks, and I have a couple of halves. And so then what you're doing is that when you're when you instead of putting filth on your stove top next to where your pan is when you're working, you have your little quarter, which has your portions on it, and then it can even have a cooling rack in if it needs to drip.
+
+[1:10:40] If you're doing like a chicken or something like this, and you can go in and out very neatly. I'm also pro-tong, by the way. I'm pro-tong also, but I'm also a fan of uh I mean it's so annoying to say this, but I really think the little tweezers have some use. Not for pretentiously putting um, you know, microgreens on at the end, but for actually like trying individual pieces of things as they're cooking. Nothing is easier to grab a single spaghetto out of the pasta water while it's boiling than than a little tweezer.
+
+[1:11:09] It's hard with tongs. You know, you want to see where it's at cooking wise, or if you've got like some beets that are uh Brinoid, really small. I mean, you can go in with a spoon and take ten of them, or you can just grab one little one and see where it's done cooked wise. Are you gonna overcook it like the French? Are you gonna have that you know al dente thing of the Americans?
+
+[1:11:26] It all depends on how long it's in the pan. That means you've got to try it. And you don't want to eat all your product before it's done, so boom, tweezer. I don't know. I'll think about it.
+
+[1:11:34] Oh, not a fan. I I don't know, I'll think about it. I I'm not a disagree. It's just, you know, it's just not like, you know, it's just not where my life is. I I can I could try it and see what I think.
+
+[1:11:47] I'm not disagreeing yet because I don't have any uh I I do it is like doing the pasta dance though, where you take the spoon, which is why you should have a slide spoon, and you try to get that one thing out, and then you jiggle it around and you grab it and it's burning your hand and then you put it and you burn your lip. Oh, get a cake tester. Why? Why? I don't bake cakes.
+
+[1:12:06] Why should I have a cake tester? Because that's how everyone actually checks the temperature of meat. No one's actually taking a giant thermometer and shoving it through their piece of meat. You stick the cake tester. Really, you can use the tip of your pairing knife, right?
+
+[1:12:17] You can like honestly, you can use the tip of your pairing knife, but a cake tester is useful. And then you you test for the warmth against your bottom lip. Everyone know this trick? Do we all know this trick? Yeah.
+
+[1:12:26] Uh cake tester is a good thing to have. Yeah. Use the poster boy for it. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:12:32] Like uh the your lower lip is extremely sensitive to temperature. And so uh you can you can cake test, put the little cake tester in, and then pull it out and basically know whether you've heated the sucker through. And that's let's let's say this, Dave. If you're gonna get a cake tester to temp meat and put it against your lower lip, then you should also be in the camp of bolsterless knives. Because both of these things cause uh physical harm to you.
+
+[1:12:58] I guess. I don't know. But like I just think the cake tester is something people don't think of. All right, what's the first motorized thing? Do you first buy a cuisinart or do you first buy, and by the way, I don't care what brand of queen art you buy.
+
+[1:13:09] Right, right. Uh or or I only buy RoboCoo, I only buy the Breville brand food processor. Don't care. You all know what I'm talking about. Yep.
+
+[1:13:16] And by the way, you're not gonna use those attachments. Nine out of ten times, you're not gonna use any of those. Maybe you'll use a shredding thing. The shredder one's good for like making a nice roast tea. Yeah.
+
+[1:13:26] Yeah. All right. Maybe you'll use that, but you don't need any other things. You're gonna ask blender or uh cuisinar. Or blender, Cuisin art or or mi or stand mixer.
+
+[1:13:36] Oh, stand mixer's last on the list for sure with me. I mean, that's just like if you're baking a ton of cakes and things like that, uh I mean you could probably do it. I use my stand mixer the most. I use it the most. However, I could be doing a lot of that work in the Cuisin art if I wanted to.
+
+[1:13:56] So I'm I'm gonna go blender first because I I I make a lot of shakes. I like blending things up. I mean, but then when you get to things like pestos, it just makes more sense to have that wider base that the cuisinard has. But you can make a pesto in a blender, even with that that narrow uh you know thing at the bottom. You just have to add more liquid.
+
+[1:14:14] Cold water seems to work fine. In general, water makes everything go around and then it kind of evaporates off anyway. I mean, I would never give up my Vita Prep, but if they're expensive, and I would rather i i if it was between a cheap blender or a cuisinard, I'd go cuisin art. Yeah. I'd go cuisin art and a stick blender.
+
+[1:14:32] I go cuisin art and a stick. That's that's actually the right answer. This was a trick question. Yeah, the stick blender is pretty damn good. And then you get one for like 20 bucks.
+
+[1:14:42] Yeah, and then I would get a I mean, I like the thing about a KitchenAid is it's a good investment. Like you should all eventually at some point, even if you have no desire to get married so that someone will give you uh Kitchen Aid. And then um, you know, to whomever, whatever. Yeah, when then your Kitchen Aid, that you know, that'll that'll last you uh uh you know, whatever. My like my mom still has hers from the 70s, although she now has a newer one too.
+
+[1:15:08] Like, you know, you'll use one of those forever. Get the big get the bigger one. Even Nastasi likes a Kitchen Aid, right, Sas? Yes. Yeah.
+
+[1:15:14] Although most of the attachments, I don't use them. I have a lot of them. I don't use them because most of them are. Oh, the rollers? Yeah.
+
+[1:15:22] Yeah. You know why? Uh, because if you're gonna make pasta, uh, you know what you want? Both hands. Yeah, no kidding.
+
+[1:15:28] You don't you don't want one hand on a crank. And what do we get? It looks incredibly quaint. Oh, yeah, it does. It does.
+
+[1:15:35] You should all go look at at Julie Giuliano Buggiali's uh old books where he makes the pasta and the look on that man's face when he has the pasta coming out of the roller, like that's all you need. Like, if you and to know what a curmudgeon that guy was in the real life, and then like to see the joy he has on his face when that pasta's coming out of the thing, and he's got that, he's got that quick, you know how like so so. Imagine, if you will, here I am, uh my right hand's on the on the on the pasta crank, and then the left hand is guiding the cut pasta up. I don't know how he's guiding the uncut side yet, but he's guiding the pasta up, and then he just raises that shoulder slightly and then gives you the I didn't have one of those books. I I inherited it from my grandfather, Bujallian pasta, and it's got so many pretentious Italian things in there that I love.
+
+[1:16:24] You know, he's talking about like oil-based sauces and everything. And you should never put cheese on any oil-based sauce because one doesn't do that. Dude was really like that. The dude was crazy. Like he was uh he was uh I would ask him questions, I was like, you know, like really like very well respected New York chefs.
+
+[1:16:44] I was like, have you had this? Yes, do you like it? No, no, like a hundred percent of the time. He'd be like, no. And he's like, it's not not traditional.
+
+[1:16:52] But what's interesting about uh Buggiali, and and again, he just passed, I think a year ago, uh, or maybe two or three, I don't remember, it's recently, and uh, you know, he came of age in an era of complete food debasement in this country. Now, not in Florence, right? Where he's from, but complete debasement of food in in this country. And he was focused on uh tradition and authenticity, which is interesting because I think you know, the generation today, I think, understands that uh that authenticity itself is a myth. That like all of these foods are in constant flux.
+
+[1:17:32] And so to say that there is one tradition or one authentic thing, well, there's something that's authentic to the way my grandmother made it, right? But it's not necessarily but you know, she made it differently from probably her great grandmother. Very few recipes are actually passed unchanged for hundreds and hundreds of years. And he was a historian, so he did know the the history of it, but like I think we've all gone gotten past this concept of uh of the authentic X, Y, or Z. You know what I mean?
+
+[1:17:59] At least I I hope we have. I totally understand what you're trying to articulate. It is uh yeah, that's definitely yep. All right, wait, wait, John, before we go, did we have any questions specifically for Frankie? Because I didn't make it to the end of the we didn't talk about Novak, really.
+
+[1:18:16] It was difficult cooking for him. No, I know. But I will tell you something really interesting about him. All of the nuts, because he's totally vegan, all the nuts, uh, he he makes sure that they are soaked uh for at least 12 hours and then slightly dehydrated, with the idea being that part of the digestion, part of the breaking down of that nut is happening outside of the body, and therefore he's using less energy to break it down in his body, conserving more energy for the next match. So that's the kind of stuff we were dealing with.
+
+[1:18:41] I know. Whatever, man. He's a pro, he can do what he wants. He's so rich, you know, he's number one in the world. He can Tom Brady it, he can, you know, not eat eggplant or whatever the hell else Tom Brady doesn't do.
+
+[1:18:51] So this show is for Laughing Cow, who asked many, many moons ago. Any reason hey Dave, any resource you can point me to for cookware recommendations for starters. That's why we have Frankie on for the show. So Jenny Girl wanted to know when your cookbook's coming out. Your show is the best cooking show in a long, long time, Jenny Girl says to you.
+
+[1:19:11] Thank you. Frankie. That's very sweet. And then I'll leave this. Han H or Helga via Instagram asks, why are bagels so hard to make?
+
+[1:19:23] Where can I listen? Listen, Hannah, they're actually not that hard to make. I'll tell you a secret. I'll tell you a secret. Everyone worries about getting maltose, which is hard to get.
+
+[1:19:32] You don't actually need malt to make bagels. It's an extra. And uh the reason they use malt is what's called a reducing sugar. So you can either put malt into the recipe itself or you can put malt uh into the boiling water. Um, but it's kind of hard to get the one that you want.
+
+[1:19:48] You don't need to worry about it. Uh, you know what has reducing sugar? Honey has some reducing sugars in it because it's been inverted. So it's more reducing than sucrose. So you can substitute a little bit of honey if you want.
+
+[1:19:58] You just have it there, makes your life easy. I would also, if you're having trouble with your bagels browning, I would add about a percent of baking soda to your boiling water. Now, a lot of people are gonna say it's not traditional, but they can go suck it because what I'm telling you is that it's gonna make a better bagel. Uh cook uh when you boil your bagels and do boil your bagels. Boil your bagels for about 30 seconds on each side.
+
+[1:20:18] Um, don't crazy overproof them. And here's another secret everyone is jacked up on their high hydration breads. Bagels are not a high hydration bread. Keep it down to like 65% hydration, so six. So for every kilo of flour and use a decent kind of bready flour for it.
+
+[1:20:34] Although I make mine with whole wheat, like because that's what I do all the time, even though Nastasia hates the fact that I grind whole wheat. Uh, she hates it. It's the thing about me that she hates. Well, no, she hates many things about me, but that's one of the things she hates about me. Jeez, man.
+
+[1:20:45] The self-deprecating podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But um about 65. So for every kilo of flour, use uh 650 grams of water. Uh you're, you know, people do let their bagel sit around a long time.
+
+[1:20:58] I don't know that it's gonna get that much extra stuff, especially if you're seating up the outside. So I wouldn't worry about over yeasting it. Uh make sure you have about 2.2% of salt. Uh and don't make them too dang big, right? So they're not the honey in the boiling water is big.
+
+[1:21:12] They do that in uh Montreal. That's I'm a fan of that too. How about maple syrup? Is that a good reduction sugar? Uh well, that's the thing.
+
+[1:21:18] So, like that's mostly sucrose. It hasn't been inverted. So if you can find stuff that's inverted, you could, but you really want something that's been either inverted. So I would just stick with honey. Um, especially because most of us have it.
+
+[1:21:30] Okay, that's it. Watch Dave's Instagram after this. He's erecting, he's doing a teepee erection. Uh, that sounds really bad, Nastasia. So Nastasia is deciding.
+
+[1:21:40] So Nastasia has had a teepee shipped to her Stanford Heidi Hole. And uh, so so check on, keep checking the coastline of Stanford to see on Google Maps to see whether or not you can find Nastasia's teepee. But the reason that we're doing this show here is because Nastasia has decided that for business purposes, it's best if John and I are here to help her erect her teepee, which again still sounds really gross. And she's gonna do a TP erect. I have a you keep saying teepee erection.
+
+[1:22:12] Well, that's what it is. That's the act of erecting a teepee. Can't you just say I'm gonna put up a teepee? There's no way around it. Whoa.
+
+[1:22:19] Can you combine you are aroused from bed. Oh geez, Louise. Okay. So we're gonna try to Instagram live it. Well, why are you talking to your microphone?
+
+[1:22:29] You're recording. Oh God. Pray for our backups, people. Pray for our backups. Frankie, thanks so much for coming on.
+
+[1:22:40] Find that Leatherman Cave. Cooking Issues. Cooking Issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you.
+
+[1:22:54] For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place.
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+[1:23:16] And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRM family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
+
+[1:23:35] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. It's a better egg made from plants. Bring more customers in your doors with just egg. Start with a free sample at J U.S T R N. This week on Meet and Three, we're turning an eye to food at its trickiest.
+
+[0:22] From imitation olive oil to the pretensions of 3D printers. We were just doing like a birthday party for one of the employees, and we printed a steak just for fun. You know, a grape jolly rancher isn't going to satisfy your craving for grapes. So I mean, in a sense, it kind of multiplies the sensory qualities that we can love in the world. So basically, you culture the cell in a bioreactor, it grows, and then ultimately at the end you come out with a piece of meat.
+
+[0:54] Tune in to Meet and Three. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. We got Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in uh Connecticut. How you doing? Good.
+
+[1:27] Yeah, how's the teepee? We can talk about that later. Good. Tomorrow there's supposed to be a Thunderstorm, so we'll really see how. Ooh.
+
+[1:35] Ooh, well, uh, well, so before so we got John. How are you doing, John? Hi, everybody. Good. He's he he's in uh he's in uh what do you call that?
+
+[1:44] You call it the Murray Hill? What do you call that thing? Yep, Murray Hill. Exactly. Yep.
+
+[1:47] And we never figured out who Murray was, right? I think he's uh, I think if I remember correctly, a shipping merchant from 1700s. Hmm. Hmm. Alright.
+
+[1:57] Uh not uh Fred McMurray, whose uh greatest role was in Double Indemnity. Remember that movie? Never even heard of that movie. Oh my god. Oh my god.
+
+[2:07] Stas, you don't like old movies, right? So you haven't seen Double Indemnity, probably. What about you, Matt? I've heard of Double Indemnity, I have not seen it. Every time I try to bring it up, you yell at me and say I'm an idiot for asking you whether you've seen it because you don't like to watch things like that.
+
+[2:23] Why is that insulting? I'm I'm happy if you like that kind of stuff because I like that kind of stuff. It's something we can talk about. Old movies is a is a very broad genre. Okay.
+
+[2:35] You know the movies I like, so it's weird that you're saying I don't like old movies. Oh, old noir movies? Um, I don't know. Anyway, it's a great m move. Well, I don't know whether it holds up now because I'm sure I'm sure it's I'm sure if I looked at it, you know, with uh I haven't seen it in 20 years, so I'm sure I'm sure it's viciously anti-woman because the whole theory is is that this woman convinces Fred McMurray, which is what made me think of it, uh the My Three Sons guy, convinces as an insurance agent to bump off her husband, and then because of the way he's dying, he gets double indemnity.
+
+[3:15] She gets twice the insurance. And then it's Edward G. Robinson, if my memory serves me correct, who's the gangster who's often imitated in the Bugs Bunny cartoon. Yeah, she yeah, yeah. That guy.
+
+[3:25] So like he is not playing a bad guy here, kind of. He plays the insurance adjuster who's like, yo, Fred McMurray, doesn't this seem kind of fishy? Or yeah, fishy, right? Fishy, see? Yeah, like that.
+
+[3:36] And so, like, it's a whole thing. But I'm sure that like they blame the woman for it and everything like this. I'm sure that's how it goes. I haven't seen it in many years. I'm sure all of Noir is like that.
+
+[3:46] Anyways, uh, so for those of you that pay attention to our Instagram live, was it last week, Saz? Yeah, seems like long time ago, I guess. Seems like a long, long time ago, right? So last week after the radio show, uh, Nastasia had uh John and I and Koji the dog uh up there to put together her teepee, and so now she has a full 12-foot like honest to goodness teepee in Stanford, Connecticut, right? Yeah.
+
+[4:18] We'll see if it holds up. Well, it's gonna hold up for the but for sure. You said that there's like a a storm coming tomorrow. Now, for those of you that like Nastasia's place is like kind of crazy in that you know how usually when you're along the coast, you don't have like a big lawn. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:37] But like Nastasia has a like Nastasia's place is like tiny little house on a big lawn. So everyone, find me. You know the town, you know the description. Uh one come all. Yeah.
+
+[4:51] Well we'll see if that happens, I'll take the blame. How about that? Okay. So anyway, so I'll give them your address. It's his big you have in the past.
+
+[4:58] No, I've never given them your address. And I haven't given you one time where they got screwed up, but not your address. Uh-huh. Someone has already set off to walk the entire Connecticut coastline looking for a TP. That's very Leatherman-like, yeah, yeah.
+
+[5:12] Uh anyway. Anyways, so there's a thunderstorm coming up, right? How does it be? Oh, so bad. So bad.
+
+[5:17] So bad. Let me put it to you this way. If you're gonna manufacture a teepee, like, there you only make like two or three sizes. How's about, how's about you you make like just you can have your booklet that you made when you were high as a kite in like 78, yeah. Yeah, yeah, 7880 with the bell with the bell bottoms, everything.
+
+[5:39] Like you can you can smell, you can smell the people coming off the pages 45 years later. You can smell it. You know what I'm saying? But my point is is that like you could just make a single like sheet of like Xeroxed paper that was like, oh, your particular teepee? Yeah, you're gonna want this layout.
+
+[6:02] Would it be that hard, Stas? Or just email me a PDF like weeks before, you know, because it took six weeks to make. So I could have read it, you know. So I'll give you some hints. So, first of all, John and I, I you know, I'm gonna call you out a little bit, Nastasia.
+
+[6:17] Nastasia did receive the instruction, didn't read the damn. The day before you guys came. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, because here's one thing.
+
+[6:26] So imagine if you will, like 14 foot long, like those came weeks before, so they should have told me, yeah. Right. 16 feet, right? 16 feet? Okay, so 16 feet long.
+
+[6:40] Imagine if you took a bamboo skewer and you just scaled it up to 16 feet, and that's basically what's you know, they delivered up like it was like like the giant from Jack and the Beanstalk came and just dropped those things on Nastasia's lawn. Pretty much right. Yeah, and they sat there for weeks, and I told them they arrived. Killing the grass. Yeah.
+
+[7:00] And uh, you know, anyways, but so then the very first instruction, John, in a teepee, what is it? Uh seal up the the poles with a wax. Linseed Lunseed oil your poles, yeah. But those instructions came with the teepee. And that those came the day before you guys showed up.
+
+[7:19] So three coats at least uh and I was incredibly hung over the day that the teepee showed up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So my bad. Yeah.
+
+[7:31] Anyway, but even aside from the fact that now she has a an unsealed, unsealed poles, as we say. Uh yeah, those instructions sucked. They really sucked. But it's up there. I think it's good to go.
+
+[7:44] We'll see. We will see. There's a big uh thunderstorm you say coming tomorrow. So uh the reason I was talking about the big lawn was because the tallest thing for miles around is your teepee, pretty much. Yeah, and it might end up in somebody else's lawn.
+
+[7:59] You need to get like a camera. No, it's not the word. I want to see the lightning strike the top of the teepee. You need a camera to get that lightning strike. Yeah.
+
+[8:06] Have the neighbors said anything, Nastasia? There was a little bit of something. Someone said one neighbor said the other neighbor asked about it. Oh, I love that. I love that.
+
+[8:16] Look, for me, it's fine. I love it. For me personally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, the other neighbor.
+
+[8:20] Yeah. The other neighbor. The other neighbor, not so much. Anyway. That's that's a classic.
+
+[8:26] By the way, anyone who uses this tactic, we see you. We understand what you're doing. It's like it's like when my kids try to like lie to me, and I'm like, I was also a kid once. We understand your lie. Uh for me, it's fine.
+
+[8:40] It's my it's the other guy. What other guy? There's no one else next to us. Which other guy? Uh like that, right?
+
+[8:47] It was pretty much like that. Yeah. Yeah. People. Uh so today is Jen's birthday, my wife's birthday.
+
+[8:55] Where did you get her? And what are you doing? I am uh cooking her. Well, so we were at uh we were we went to Connecticut uh over the weekend, and Miley and Wiley cooked uh her the family birthday dinner with uh you know some delicious cake, and then we're doing I'm doing the like our immediate, like just the four of us dinner tonight. So she wanted like uh like a a blast from her past.
+
+[9:21] So I'm doing uh Jaeger Schnitzel and Spitzel, um, and then Booker's gonna bake a cake. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Should be good.
+
+[9:32] Got her some stuff. Well she likes, but Jen Jen doesn't like, doesn't want stuff. That's the problem. You know what I mean? She doesn't like it when you spend money.
+
+[9:40] That's the thing. It's not just a money, it's just we have no space. Like anything that you bring into the house, I need to throw something else away. Like the the house is like our apartment is like little just dribbles of Booker and Dax parts like lying around, like like bits of Sears all, like, you know, like uh disassembled spinzalls, like uh 3D prints of like jigs and fixtures, just kind of like like every little corner has something like shoved into it. So she just doesn't want any objects.
+
+[10:08] So you got her nothing. No, but uh thanks for being a jerk. Wait, so you did get her something? I did, but something small, something so like it's hard, like I have to wait. Like when it was my birthday at this point in our life, you know, I just let her know about like I was like, you know what?
+
+[10:23] I want this thing. Because like it's hard to I'm hard to shop for sometimes. You know what I mean? So um, you know, I got her, she was interested in this little mini personal fireplace thing. She showed it to me online, so I was like, oh, she showed it to me, I will get it.
+
+[10:37] You know what I mean? Like uh fake fireplace? I love that. No, it makes real fire, but it's like tiny, it's like miniaturized. For the house?
+
+[10:44] It's it's Nastasi. When I say miniature, I mean like remember in Zoo in Zoolander when he's like, is this a school for it? Like that size. Like a dollhouse. Well, not quite that small size.
+
+[10:59] You know, you're you're going from one to the other. It's like, it's like imagine a fire pit that's meant to go on your table. Anyway, she expressed interest, so I bought it. Okay. Yeah.
+
+[11:12] You know. Dax got her a uh some some form of back massager. He, I don't know, he he bought it. I don't know. I don't know whether she's gonna like it or not.
+
+[11:21] I left it up to him. It's it's up to him. Isn't that you know, at his age, it should just be up to him, no? Yeah. Anyway.
+
+[11:28] So I'll let you guys know how the Spetzel. You like Spitzel? Yeah. I think Spitzel's delicious. What about you, John?
+
+[11:35] Yeah. That's delicious. Spenzel very good, also. Oh, yeah. I'm doing I'm doing pork.
+
+[11:40] She wanted the she she uh she was in the mood for the pork version of the of the Jaeger Schnitzel. Jaeger Schnitzel, for those of you that don't know. So, first of all, I've mentioned on the air before that I enjoy and there's good honor in an old school schnitzel that uses standard breadcrumbs and not panko, right? Because that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Now you could make a schnitzel out of anything.
+
+[12:01] I think a lot of people here in the US, when they make a schnitzel, they do it with the chicken breast because it's super easy to go out and buy chicken breast. You know what I mean? You know what I hate about making stuff like that with a chicken breast is that I was teaching Dax how to do it actually the other day. It's just like the chicken guts that like the chicken pieces is spray all over your kitchen, and then you have to worry about the chicken pieces all over your kitchen. Because you know when you put two layers of plastic wrap down on your cutting board and you start whacking the hell out of it, that the what's the first thing that happens is that plastic wrap?
+
+[12:29] Uh I don't know. It rips, and then there's chicken spray everywhere, and you hit one extra hit with that mallet to get it just thin enough, and there's like there's like a line of chicken all across your and like and I'm just trying to get Dax to understand like what is like what is filth and what's not. So he'll like he'll like fill something with raw chicken, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, don't touch that. Or he's like and he'll put or he'll put the knife back in the wrong position. I'm like, don't do that.
+
+[12:58] Or he'll put the chicken, the open chicken package in the wrong place. I'm like, you don't do that. I'm trying to like train him to you know what I mean? Anyways. So at least with pork, I don't have to worry about it.
+
+[13:07] I can beat the crap out of it and then like wash it down. I don't have to worry about you know salmonella on it. But she wants to she wants to pour it. What's your guys' favorite uh favorite uh schnitzel schnitzel meat? Veel veal.
+
+[13:21] Yeah. You guys, yeah, straight on veal, kyp schnitzel. Yeah, all right. Yeah, so uh I'm I'm doing pork. It was what was requested.
+
+[13:29] I know how to do the I know how to do the veal. Uh, but I think I might because I have to F with something, like typically when you do schnitzel, schnitzels are relatively shallow fried, right? I think I might try to deep fry it. What do you guys think? Okay.
+
+[13:44] I was actually just thinking, yeah, I was curious about that. So yeah, do that. Let us know how it goes. Yeah, yeah. Because I bought uh I bought a home deep fryer because I don't have uh people might be interested in this actually.
+
+[13:55] So um it's difficult, you can't go into uh a bed bath and beyond anymore and just buy a deep fryer. They don't sell them really anymore. Uh, because everyone thinks that air frying is frying, which it isn't. We all know that air frying's not frying. It's like some form of like quick like impingement cooking, but but it it ain't frying uh I'm sorry like spraying uh like uh a parcooked potato with Pam and then putting it into a blast of hot air doesn't equal a French fry it just does not um anyways so I bought a they they have these new relatively new whole batch of fryers and are you guys familiar with the new safety stuff that they have on deep fryers I'll take this deafening no so uh so the problem was is that like old electric fryers what people used to do is they would plug the fryer in into something and then they would the worst of worst is they would use an extension cord and or they would plug it into something that wasn't directly where it was and they would pull on the extension cord and the hot oil will go all over them.
+
+[15:03] Even worse there's a lot of cases of small children where they've grabbed a hold of the cord which was up high and pulled the boiling oil down on themselves. So it's just like fryers from a safety standpoint were just a huge nightmare. So now they all have these kind of awesome magnetic breakaway cords where it's like the cord pops off but what's nice about that also is is it makes it like pretty easy for cleaning. So these new fryers they're fairly cheap and they mimic a cold zone kind of because they have they don't heat from underneath right like a like the old fry daddies used to they have uh an immersion heater that's shaped similar to the bottom but held off of the bottom by uh um by a couple of you know by a couple of millimeters so that stuff can sink down to the bottom and maybe not scorch instantly. And then they have the temperature controller strapped right over where that is.
+
+[15:52] So that the the problem with frying in a in a the problem with frying in a in a pot is that A, you're overheating the bottom of the oil, and then if you don't, it's very hard to get kind of a good temperature throughout because unless you're measuring with a probe in the oil. If you're measuring with one of these probes underneath on an induction or something, it's just hard to get a good fry temperature and keep it solid. So these things that have the temperature measurements strapped right to the thing that sits in the in the oil do a great job. They're fast because the heater is relatively large, they don't overheat the oil. And I've been running some tests by actually measuring the oil breakdown over the course of four or five fries.
+
+[16:27] And in a pot I can maybe get you know a couple of fries out of some oil before it really starts degrading. Whereas in this fryer that I'm using now, which is not even expensive, it was like under a hundred dollars. It was made by I think Secure, I think. I can't remember. I can look it up.
+
+[16:42] But uh I've been I've been getting like five five fries out of this stuff, and I'm measuring the the oil, the total the total uh like polar compounds in the oil, like with a device that I bought because I'm writing a book on these things, and so I bought a device that let me lets me actually accurately measure the oil that I'm working with, and it stays good, it's crazy, it's very good. So I'll report more on that later if people want to know about uh frying. Um, and I'll let you know, John, and if people care, I'll let them know how the schnitzel works when it deep fries. Some people, I think the problem with deep frying the schnitzel is just they're so big, right? That you don't wanna like imagine if how much oil it would take in a deep fry as opposed to getting the widest pan that you can and frying with it, you know what I mean?
+
+[17:25] Anyway, yeah. Oh, the other nice thing about these fryers uh is is that it it seems like they're real cheap when you get them because they are, but they basically use enameled uh hotel pans, like six inch deep or maybe a little deeper hotel pans as their oil thing. So you just let it cool a little bit and you can just lift the entire pan off pour it out and throw the sucker in the dishwasher so the only thing you're really hand washing is the actual heating element because you can't immerse it. So it's easy to clean as well anyway. There you go.
+
+[17:55] Simon Stilwell working on a pea cocktail right now on muddling the peas but wondering if nitro muddling would preserve the flavor and color better. I thought I answered this but um no I mean it might preserve the flavor and color better but the problem peach shoots might work I mean but they taste like starch is the only problem you know I you know how I feel about starch. Uh but the anything that's hard like a pea you would need to let it freeze for a long time. Uh and then you'd want to crush it really good. If you did it in a tin they get really hard and really solid so it's hard to to freeze a something as big as a peak as opposed to a leaf without overfreesing the tin and if you overfreeze the tin it just gets really hard to do a a a shake and shaking cocktail.
+
+[18:42] So I don't know you might have some you try it let me know but you might have some problems with it. From Ben King 216 I've got a stainless steel version of the liquid bread carbonating cap. Is it a terrible messy idea to use that with a cold brew and a tank of nitrogen I got for Guinness on tap. I just don't think you're gonna get uh necessarily a good result the idea of the nitrogen as opposed to nitrus nitrus is soluble and when you let go of the pressure it expands. Nitrogen is very not soluble uh and so you need to you need to put it under high pressure and then release it quickly through a nozzle to have the small nitrogen bubbles poof up and do that nitrogen thing because it's not really in solution to the same extent that nitrous is.
+
+[19:28] So I don't know that you're gonna get uh what you want unless you're doing like they do in the ECs where you're putting a lot of pressure, turning it upside down and spraying it through uh a nozzle. Um Aragost on Twitter. Every sourdough bread recipe agrees that uh baking didn't I answer this, guys? Uh every sourdough bread recipe agrees that break baking bread needs steam. If I have a steam oven, can I avoid using the pot plus lid method?
+
+[19:54] How does steam help the formation of the crust? Thanks, Agostino. Um yeah, you can. So uh I've heard various so like I've been testing with uh with the steam oven with the ANOVA and it works great. I put it on 100% steam.
+
+[20:10] Uh I crank it for you know 20 minutes or so, then I turn the steam off and finish the bake. Uh and and it it seems to work great. Uh I've heard various reasons about why the steam does uh what it's doing, um, you know, from uh r you know retards the formation uh the or the setting of the crust so you get more spring to just making it kind of a thicker crust layer by like shock gelatinizing it on the outside of her the and and so the the answer is I don't know the real reason. Uh I haven't yet. Maybe I will see like a scientific paper that actually gives me uh uh an explanation that I can just look at and agree.
+
+[20:48] I actually guess I could try to peruse the old uh well, the relatively new modernist bread stuff. But the answer is it does work. Answer I don't know why. Uh to you know, I've guesses why, but not enough to tell you why. And uh and yes, you don't need the pot and lid if you have a steam oven.
+
+[21:05] Um Sargon. Uh if you think they're repeats, Dave, it's because I delete them as I go, unless you don't answer them adequately. That's my system. So you're saying I answered it, I've said I have answered them inadequately, you're saying. Well, you might have started it, but then you never finished it.
+
+[21:24] Uh uh video. Uh the cube video. Uh Sargon wrote in uh, and this is regarding the Inova steam oven that we did a show with uh Scott uh a while back. Uh the so it's specific to this oven. So sorry if you don't have a the steam oven.
+
+[21:45] Uh but uh if the internal oven has uh steam uh oven controls via injection and an explicitly electronic vent feet feature, when will that be exposed? Well, A, I mean Scott has to answer that. The answer is it doesn't have a vent feature. That was another thing that they were looking into doing, and they decided that it wasn't uh worth the the cost and the fact that it might uh fail. So it doesn't have that, it just naturally does its own thing.
+
+[22:10] Uh Steve Yun wrote in and uh of poetry fame of come of an amberjack kompache fame. Uh hey Anastasia, I vaguely remember you guys mentioning a peanut butter candy company giving up on its fresh tasting peanut butter because it turned out that people were used to the stale flavor. Uh it looks like, and that was Rhesus, by the way. It looks like re I think that guy was drunk when he told me that. Because you know I have have any of you guys ever worked a trade show?
+
+[22:38] Yep. Yeah, it's grueling, right? It sucks, right? We really sucks. Especially like if you're at the wrong trade show.
+
+[22:46] So, like, I think like roughly a third of people who are at a trade show who have bought a booth, they're kind of at the wrong trade show. So they're not doing a lot of business. And so everyone that comes up and talks to them is a joker. So I think this guy had like at lunch, like cracked like five or six beers and was just like so sick of talking to people that weren't actually gonna pay his business money that he just started telling me stuff about the Reese Corporation. Anyway, uh Steve says it looks like Reese overcame uh that problem with marketing.
+
+[23:14] A friend uh got uh some like new Reese's that apparently don't have the stale uh peanut butter and says that they uh really like them, says they're stoked about them. I have not had these new like super fresh Reese's, but I like a Reese's. What Steve pointed out and I looked into it, you can sign up to be on the email list at Hershey's, but every once in a while Reese comes out with Reese's that are like fresh off the factory floor, like within three days. That's what his friend had, yeah. Well, we need to do a side-bye.
+
+[23:47] Yeah. Cooking issues needs to be a part of this like Reese's taste test. Yeah, I'll sign up for the email right. Stas, what are your feelings on Reese? Let's do it.
+
+[23:59] You like Reese's? Yeah, where is that in your pantheon of uh common candies? Depends on time of the month. Not time of the year, okay. All right, all right.
+
+[24:11] I will not I will not uh pester you further on that. Uh, what about you, Matt? Uh I'm muted. Uh I don't have opinions on Reese's. I I should have just stayed muted.
+
+[24:27] You don't have opinions on Reese? Correct. How do you have no opinion? I understand like not liking it. Uh or liking it.
+
+[24:37] But like no one. Do candy. And so like I am sure that I've had a Reese's at some point. I imagine. My God.
+
+[24:50] D was this your call or your parents' call? Oh, it was totally me. I mean, well, obviously, as it's continued, like sometime in the past 15 years, I probably could have gone out and gotten my own Reese's, but have I? No. Were you also one of those kids that didn't watch television?
+
+[25:08] Uh no, I watched TV. Okay. It wasn't a rule. It was not, it was not a rule. It was just that like I would go out, do fun stuff, like get dressed up for Halloween, do all the trick-or-treating, and then give my candy to other people.
+
+[25:20] Ow. Do you like any candy now as an adult or still not? I just eat like straight chocolate bars pretty much. I'll do like with nuts and stuff and whatever. But like, yeah, I don't I still don't really do candy so much.
+
+[25:37] Okay. Alright. Uh you know, it sounded when you started on that, like you were gonna be like, hey, we didn't watch television and we embroidered all day. You know what I mean? No, I I I honestly think this was so well, this is why I was so bad at furnishing tasting notes when I was a brewer, too, because I feel like I missed out on an entire spectrum of things that like of shared flavor things that like we we as a culture know about, and I just like never tried any of them.
+
+[26:06] I don't have them in my vocabulary. So let me ask you, uh I'm gonna throw some at you. Ready? This is gonna be very bad. Yes, go.
+
+[26:14] Okay, watermelon jolly rancher. That is one of the only things. I would pick out the watermelon jolly Ranchers, and I would and I loved them. Alright, okay. Because that's also that's one of those, like doesn't really taste like a watermelon, but it's an iconic flavor.
+
+[26:30] Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like it's a substitute that doesn't try and replace what is there. It just like expands our palate slightly. Speaking of which, like apple jacks, you know what's some BS?
+
+[26:41] Do you know that they like add some minute amount of apple now to Applejacks? So that the and it says on the package that it like, you know, because I always thought the nice thing about apple jacks were no no no fruit was harmed in the making of this feature. You know what I mean? And yet it now it says like with real apples and cinnamon, so like they must just they must like, you know, like they have like a vat of like you know 50,000 pounds of grain, and then they like throw two apples. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[27:08] Or like there's an apple on a desk nearby, and like the wafting over. Yeah, yeah. But so you ate sugary cereals growing up. So you're not a monster. I'm not a total monster, but I also I'm very it was a very similar thing.
+
+[27:21] I had like one. I had apple jacks and honey nut churios, and those were the only cereals I would try. I never tried the rest of them. I like honey nut churios. They're good.
+
+[27:29] Nastasia, what's your favorite cereal? Other than count chocolate, I know, but that's seasonal. It really depends. There's so many good ones. It depends on the if you were gonna have a bowl of cereal right now, what would it be?
+
+[27:40] Um chocolate rice crispies. Ooh. So you like those kind that kind of dusty cocoa flavor? Mm-hmm. But do you like cocoa pus?
+
+[27:50] No. Yeah, I don't know. I don't like them either. Is it because of the bird or because of the cereal? Scarier.
+
+[27:56] Yeah. Yeah. What about you, John? I don't like that bird either. But what about you, John?
+
+[28:03] Ooh, I never had that. Ooh. So do you like having your mouth ripped apart? Do you like that part of Captain Crunch? So you've got you've calloused the inside of your mouth so that now you're total because to me, like for to me, the thing about Captain Crunch, and I liked them.
+
+[28:25] I'm not saying anything negative about Captain Crunch, please. I don't want to hear anything about it. But like one, even though I don't think that they had fat to it, it always tasted like it had a layer of grease on the outside to me, which is you know not a bad thing. And then it also like felt like I was eating a box of knives because the top of my mouth would be horribly like mutilated. What about you, Stas?
+
+[28:47] Do you get that out of that? I don't like Captain Crunch. But do you agree with me on the mutilating your mouth? And that weird kind of like it might be greasy. I like it though.
+
+[28:55] Yeah. Captain Crunch. Captain Crunch used to also have pretty on-point cereal box prizes. I feel like do they still do the cereal box prize? No idea.
+
+[29:05] No. They did have a bunch of like fun things to do on the back, like a map and a whole crossword puzzle and all those things. That got the internet, though. I don't need the back of my cereal box to tell me what's fun. Like, I mean, when I was a kid, like the back of your cereal box, you're like, ooh, this is the this is the best news I'm gonna get all day.
+
+[29:20] But like, you know, nowadays I have the internet. What do I need the back of my cereal box to tell me something for? You know what I mean? Well, we used to buy cereals based on what had a good prize, and then the first thing you do is rip the entire top off and jam your hand all the way, all the way into the bag. I can still hear all the cereal as it moves out of the way of my hand going all the way through the bag down to the bottom to try to get that prize out.
+
+[29:45] And then you could never like you could never make the box look right again because you weren't supposed to do that. You were told by your parents not to do that. So you had to like, then you had to smack the two sides of the box together to get it back into box form instead of a pillow form and then close it all up again. We waited. Oh, me me.
+
+[30:07] It's like you. We waited. And whoever got to the bottom of the box, they got the prize. Yeah, it is true. Well, you know what?
+
+[30:17] I don't buy that. I mean, like, I like that you're saying it. It's a nice, I'm imagining like the Lopez family sitting around the breakfast table. It is wondering, oh, brother Brother Joey, will you be the one to get the prize? Yeah, it is true.
+
+[30:33] Okay. One of my favorite cereal prizes was Captain Crunch made a little blue plastic submarine, and somehow you put baking soda into it. Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah, and it would like, I forget whether it would go down and then come back up because of the baking soda. It did something fun.
+
+[30:50] It was a good it was good business. It was good. You know what was always weak? The Cracker Jack prize, always weak. Who needs who needs a like a blurry temporary tattoo?
+
+[30:58] To get me a get me a sharp one or get me nothing at all. You know what I mean? Blurry temporary tattoo. And yet you don't have any tattoos. Yeah, no, I don't have any tattoos.
+
+[31:07] There's nothing that I would want like permanently. Plus, like I expect Oh, come on, Dave. What's you let's say you had to get a tattoo. You had to to keep your family alive. What would you get?
+
+[31:17] How big does it have to be? Where's it gonna go? Uh it's gonna go on your bicep. Oh. And no, it's gonna go on your forearm.
+
+[31:27] My forearm. Your forearm. So, like, you know, where Popeye has his anchor. Yeah. Oh, Dave, you can just get a get a shirt tattooed on you, so you never like literally never take your shirt off.
+
+[31:38] Well, that's true. No one would ever see it anyway. So it's just like it's like I I could do anything. I could put I could put like a dog poop. It wouldn't matter.
+
+[31:44] No one's ever gonna see it. Okay, but what would you get? Probably that elf, the elf that I always draw. What would you get? Oh god.
+
+[31:53] Um I don't know. I really don't. Uh I don't. Because you're also tattooers, right? Yeah.
+
+[32:01] Yeah. We are we're the only people left. John, do you have one? I do not have any tattoos. Whoa, Matt?
+
+[32:07] Nothing. Wow. So we're not we're not useful people. Like we're we're not like we are so far outside of the zeitgeist that whoever's listening should stop listening to us because clearly we have nothing in common with you. We should definitely end the tattoo segment right now.
+
+[32:24] That seems clear. Although I feel that like if you were six years younger than me, the odds of you having a tattoo like went up like by a factor of eight. You know what I mean? Like I was right before that hit huge, I think. You know what I mean?
+
+[32:40] You were still a little bit of a still a little bit of a wild child. You know what I mean? At my age. Anyway. Uh definitely the elf, I think.
+
+[32:48] Definitely the elf. You haven't chosen yet, right, Nastasia? No, I don't know at what I would no, I really don't know. I really don't. Would it be a word or a picture?
+
+[32:56] I I don't know. Picture, I guess. But again, you hate choosing things like this that are permanent, right? Yeah. Hate permanence.
+
+[33:06] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. None of us are permanent.
+
+[33:10] So there's a there's that. Uh all right. Um Turner wants to know if there's any uh good books on Mezcal we recommend. I attended a Del Maggay virtual class yesterday and want to delve more into something. Uh do I have any specific mezcal?
+
+[33:26] We have uh, yeah, um let me get let me get back to you, Dean Turner. We should have uh Jay back on or another Mezcal expert back on and just talk talk mezcal. Because I don't want to, I'm not like a super expert in the in like, you know, what's the current state-of-the-art mezcal book? So I don't want to give any I don't want to give you. He could Google it.
+
+[33:45] Well, that doesn't know. They want to know what we think. Uh you know what we should get back on because I had another cookbook uh question from somebody else on fruits. We should get Matt back on from Kitchen Arts and Letters. We should every once in a while we should just have Matt on and just be like, people want to know about this, this, this, and he could rattle off like the four greatest books that were ever written on that subject.
+
+[34:03] You know what I mean? Because we haven't done classics in the field in a long time. I'm not prepared for it today either. We've got to get back on the get back on the classics field anyway. Send them an email.
+
+[34:11] We'll book something. What? I'll send him an email, we'll make it happen. Alright. I'll book something, yeah.
+
+[34:16] Uh Sam Erickson wrote in about uh Jack Shram's article on fat washing. Uh I'm a novice, so forgive me if there's something obvious I'm missing. Milk has fat in it, especially whole milk. So what makes milk washing different from fat washing? Uh from a quick Googling, it uh it seems that fat washing generally adds flavor while milk washing strips it.
+
+[34:37] Both processes add body, but does milk washing do it better? What's so special about milk that makes it better than other fats? First of all, milk does a body good. That's what's so special about it. Feel free to cover this on the radio show if it's easier.
+
+[34:48] Well, here I am covering on the radio show. They're completely different. Uh milk washing would work even if you used skim milk. It's just I will never recommend people buy skim milk because I don't want it to be produced, because I believe it's a monstrosity. I believe that it shouldn't exist.
+
+[35:03] Um, so uh if the fat is not the important part of milk washing. In milk washing, the important part is the milk proteins, right? So you're using the casein in the milk to bond on to astringent things, and then you are curdling it and stripping out the milk protein, but you're leaving the whey protein, which is what you when you say adds body, actually adds texture when you shake it. When you shake it, it gets foamy, like almost like not as much, but almost like you put an egg white into that sucker. So that's what milk washing does.
+
+[35:33] Fat washing doesn't necessarily add any body. What you're doing there is you are taking a flavorful fat. So think bacon grease or uh fancy olive oil or some sort of flavored fat with no liquid in it. Fat washing has no water-based, you know, the more water-based stuff in it, the less it's fat washing. And so Don Lee, you know, my partner at XCON, uh he hated more than anything on earth when people would call well, that's not true, in terms of mislabeling things for cooking.
+
+[36:08] He hated when people would uh call things fat washing that weren't. In fat washing, you are taking a flavorful fat, and then you are taking alcohol, not water, not water, alcohol, right? And the reason you're doing alcohol is because the whole idea of fat washing is there are things that are in fats that are more much more soluble in alcohol than they are in water. And so you're using the alcohol because this whole thing is based on the old technique of enflourage, right? Where you would take flower petals, you would layer them into uh deodorized uh animal fat, and then on these big sheet trays, on these big trays, you would layer all of them, and then you would turn them and you keep turning them until the fat was completely imbued with these like non-polar aroma compounds from the flower petals.
+
+[37:01] You would then take that fat, which now had the floral elements in it, and then you would wash that with high-proof ethanol, right? And so then these these things that were, you know, not polar that weren't that weren't soluble in water, would go into the ethanol and you would get these great, very delicate kind of floral things on flourage. And so uh fat washing is like a take on this kind of enflorage technique where you're using alcohol as the solvent to remove or to strip flavors out of the fats and into the liquor. Does that make sense? Was that a decent answer?
+
+[37:36] Is that gonna make it off the list this time, John? Yep, deleting it right now. Good work. Alright. This episode is brought to you by Just Egg.
+
+[37:48] You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based consumers in your doors with easy to use just egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U dot S T slash H R N.
+
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+
+[38:30] For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free. Head to J-U.S. S T slash H-R-N. Just egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble.
+
+[38:48] Great for omelets, fratatas, stir fries, and French toast. There's also frozen pre-baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads. Chef Jose Andreas calls Just Egg mind blowing. And Bonapet says, it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu.
+
+[39:12] Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J U.S T slash H R N. Isabella De Giulio wrote in, hey uh Anastasia, uh, John, and Matt. Uh, I'm excited to actually finally write you. I know it might be uh I think I I feel like I've read this. I know it might be a tad map, but I've listened to nearly 300 of the episodes.
+
+[39:36] That's a lot. That's a lot. It's a lot. How many have we done, Stas? I don't know.
+
+[39:41] 452. 452. Jeez. Yep. Oh, so in two episodes we're 454, we need to burn all of our paper.
+
+[39:50] Why? 454. 451. Four? Four, right?
+
+[39:55] One. One. 451. Plus we already missed it? We missed it last week.
+
+[39:58] Oh crap. Should have uh, you know, lit everyone on fire last week. And we could have. We were all in the same room. We could have just started a big paper fire and burnt us all down.
+
+[40:09] And in fact, Nastasia was, you know, for once saying that I did a good job with the paper fires helping her get her flu working. But I don't think she said it on air. But anyway. Yeah. But you know, if your flu doesn't draw properly, people, like odds are you just need to heat that thing up.
+
+[40:25] So if you don't want to smoke your house out while you're heating it up, get a get a very fast burning fire, like like like uh lightly wadded, lightly crumpled paper, and just super heat up your flu. Does anyone just make like does anyone just like make a uh a flu warmer? Like where you can have a look. You know what you could get, Stas, if you're interested. I email blow torch or touch your broken tour.
+
+[40:48] Like a weed, like a weed burning torch. Yes. But it works now, so uh it's been a real joy, uh source of laughter. Uh thanks. And information, especially as I'm still on furlough and live alone.
+
+[41:03] Uh I love listening to them at home. I'm super fruit obsessed uh about figs and just love fruits and vegetables. And I was wondering what your favorite books and sources of information are on fruit. This is a good question from Matt, because that the minor. I tried to find that book you mentioned, Fruits of Brazil, but I could not find it.
+
+[41:19] You can buy that book directly on the um um fruit and spice park in South Dade. I think you can buy that book directly, but I don't really recommend like you need to have a very particular mental outlook to actually like that book. It's completely useless. You can't buy any of those fruits. So it's more like every time I look at it, I'm like, I need to get to Brazil, I need to get to Brazil, I need to get to Brazil.
+
+[41:42] Um I was wondering your favorite books and source of information on fruit. Um okay. I spent most of my time eating or sourcing fruit this summer. I'm going to travel to meet more fig farmers. I like how it's more fig farmers.
+
+[41:54] How like you've already met like tier one of fig farmers, and now you're down, you're moving down to tier three and four of fig farmers. Uh at the moment, we are getting incredible Indian mangoes like the Alfonso, and the season has just started. I hope next year to travel uh for the season in India. Uh oh, yeah, so I have not I've never been to India. I want to go.
+
+[42:13] Uh Harold McGee says he's gonna get us a hookup in India. The Fairchild has the best collection of mangoes in the United States. Um I maybe there's someone in Hawaii that has a decent collection as well, but the Fairchild in um also in South Dade has like the greatest collection of mangoes, but we Nastasia and I, we were not necessarily treated the best there, right, Sas? Nope. We were not.
+
+[42:38] They kicked us out in the rain, wouldn't let us eat, and the lady was like, I'm cooking breakfast, get out. Remember that? It was so weird. Yes. We had flown all the way from New York just to eat those mangoes.
+
+[42:53] We had ostensibly gotten permission to do so, and then like they, you know, and we didn't even want anything. We just wanted to be left alone. She tells us not to pick the mangoes off the trees because they need to save it for people that she cares about. Remember this? Yeah.
+
+[43:08] And so we're picking ones that we that just fell, and we're writing notes, and she's like, you don't know anything about that mango. You pick that off the ground. You need to pick that off the tree. We're like, you just said I can't pick the mangoes out of the tree. And then, like, you know, we're trying to like it's raining so hard, and we're trying to eat these mangoes.
+
+[43:28] We're trying to keep it like in a good frame of mind, right? And it was tough. It was tough, right, Saz? Yeah, not fun at all. Yeah.
+
+[43:38] And yet, you don't give me crap about that. You give me crap about our citrus tasting and the fact that you had to sit through that lunch. Horrible lunch. Worst lunch ever. Hmm.
+
+[43:50] Alright. Uh I hope next year I travel uh for the season in India, as well as citrus season in Corsica in California. Look, if you're gonna do this, you need to become a member of the flute Fruit Explorers Club, and uh you need to get uh you need to contact David Carp. Anyone who's this into it, David Carp would be happy to talk to you about it, right? And we can he he knows what the best books are.
+
+[44:10] He's the one that uh recommended uh to you all the uh the pornographic French apple book. Remember that? Yep, I have it. Yeah. I mean, you know you can buy those things now, like people have started like commercializing that again.
+
+[44:23] What are your thoughts on this this apple technology versus the apple head technology? I think nothing beats the apple heads. Yeah, yeah. I could have, I could have, could have, should have guessed that. Uh question, uh questions.
+
+[44:38] I have uh had uh questions I have had. What would you cook for yourself if not a poached egg? I mean, I don't ever cook for myself, except for poached eggs. What else do I cook for myself? Poached eggs.
+
+[44:51] Open a tin of chino fish, sardines. Sardines, sardines, big difference. You do you like sardines in a can? Yeah, they're delicious. I know John loves a canned fish.
+
+[45:04] Yep. Yes, I do. What are your feelings on a canned fish, Matt? I have not met a canned fish that I that I don't like. I like them all.
+
+[45:13] Yeah, alright. You know what I don't like? Let me ask you guys this. Are you familiar? So, like there are some canned fishes that I think, first of all, on sardines, are you guys skinless boneless or not skinless boneless?
+
+[45:27] Not now, when you when you do it, do you take the fork and lift the two fillets apart and lift the little weird bony parts out? Or you eat it? Okay. Do any of you eat the bones and like that weird gritty calcium garbage? I don't.
+
+[45:42] Just go for them? Yeah, people just go for them. Wow, okay. What about you, John? Uh no, I'm with nostalgia on this one.
+
+[45:54] Yeah. So, um, one of the things you ever bought, and it's the they're the weirdest shaped cans in the canned food aisle. You ever bought the canned salmon? No. Okay.
+
+[46:06] So canned salmon. Not it doesn't come in like, you know, uh chicken of the sea style little tuna fish cans. It comes in this weird can that's like the like the height of a soup can, but it's actively tapered. Actively tapered. So when you look at it, it like it looks, it's not quite as tapered as a pint glass, but it's like tapered.
+
+[46:29] And I feel like they must have bought all of these cans in like 1956, and they're still trying to run through them because ain't nobody want the canned salmon. Because they just take a chunk of the salmon, they jam it into this tapered can, bones and all, and then they just pressure it up, and then like there's all these like calcium eat bones that you have to pick out of it. I don't know. I'm trying to see whether any of you guys were down with this or have had any experience with these with this tapered canned salmon. No, I don't know what I don't know.
+
+[46:56] Yeah. John, you? Nope, never seen it either. What are your thoughts on potted meats though? You like a potted meat?
+
+[47:06] Like, what are you thinking? Yeah, well, yes, I guess yeah. Like under like underwood style deviled meat in a can. I like that stuff. Tastes like like like dog food in a good way.
+
+[47:16] You know what I mean? Like protein breakdown products. I like I don't know if I've ever had that, so do you like do you like Vienna fingers, those little watery, weird, pasty sausages in a can? Kind of. I mean, I'll eat them, but I would never buy them.
+
+[47:32] I don't imagine that Nastasi would like those. No, not really. Yeah. Alright. Uh so anyway, so the answer, uh, Isabella, is that I would probably just open a can of something and and eat it.
+
+[47:45] Uh, and they want to know what you guys would cook for yourselves. Well, Nastasia, you've talked about it, you can talk about it some more. What are you cooking for yourself now? Um Trader Joe's meets. Oh, you're so you're doing meats, but Trader Joe's why?
+
+[47:58] Because they come in good portions? No, there's always extra. They don't do one human portions there. They if you're willing to do frozen, they have a lot of individually packed like uh fish things. So like they're on the radio.
+
+[48:15] Someone's here. No, that was Dax leaving for school. Hello. Hello. Booker, you want to say hello to the people?
+
+[48:21] Hey guys. Hey, Booker, you want to get so Booker, he he can't hear you guys, but yes, oh wait, so but you know, he can hear him. Uh here's a here's a headphone, Booker here. You want to if you want to hear what those are good? Alright, so Booker recorded one of the intros for cooking issues, and then sped it up, slowed it down, sped it up, slowed it down, and then as the imagery for it, he has a picture of when I'm screaming the intro of Watson, which is our smaller dog's ears getting pinned back in fear.
+
+[48:52] And when you say the live park, he blinks. Watson blinks, yeah. So, you know. Where can we see that? Yeah, where is this video?
+
+[48:59] So, book Booker, where are you gonna upload it? Are you gonna upload it to your subway NYC Instagram account? I don't know. It's probably copyright. It's not copyright, it's ours.
+
+[49:07] It's us. Yeah, no, that sounds good to go. Let's do it. Yeah, anyways, I got it right here for you, right here. All right, well, play we get over here close so they can hear it from from the mic sure let me go let me get it off uh in the meantime Holden Trout says the last Holden Trout says the last can of salmon they bought had large visible tapeworms in it are you familiar with the hold on give me a minute I gotta come back anytime you come back anytime in the next like five minutes and we'll be good.
+
+[49:38] So uh are you familiar with the band Lard which was uh uh Lard was a uh what's it called a collaboration between Jell O Biafra from the Dead Kennedys and uh uh Al Jorgensen from Ministry and no yeah and they're their most famous maybe only it's the only one I know song is called the power of Lard and uh Jello Biafra was doing the singing if I remember and the line is Lard is the tapeworm in a bottle of cheap tequila that comes alive at night and sneaks out to bite your nipple Lard like that yeah yeah um yeah anyway it it's not a good song like uh everyone in my family hates all of those like Jell O Biafra collaborations hates like uh like uh the limbo maniacs all hates hates any of that stuff from that era here we go all right here we go here we go I'm gonna turn it all the way up yes you will cook issues this is Game Wells and Cooking issues going to live that's that's real slow, books. We're gonna be here all day. Related note, we only have like 10 minutes left. Oh my god. Is this how you detriggered yourself from having me say it by playing those weird ways?
+
+[51:19] Oh my god. Alright, jeez. I feel as though we should have inquired how long this video was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, I gotta answer some more questions, but goodness.
+
+[51:29] 10 minute warning. 10 minute warning. Alright. Uh okay, so Isabella can't have gluten or dairy as I can't really uh eat and don't eat meat, which is sad for an Italian. What are your favorite fish dishes and vegetable dishes?
+
+[51:44] I have a very good vegetable dish. You ready for this? Vegan. Vegan. Uh it's a dish I've been made.
+
+[51:50] It's the one vegan dish that I've always kind of accidentally made. Um and it's uh it's based on kind of a Navratan style uh mix. I don't have the exact recipe because uh I forgot to get the exact recipe. But the idea is take spice mixture uh of your choice, right? Uh but typically it's like uh a little bit of uh cori like coriander and I I usually put like a like a little bit of cardamom.
+
+[52:17] You saute the heck out of some onions, and um you then you saute whatever spices you you add your choice. Doesn't not don't go too it's not a spicy dish, but you can add whatever spices you like there. Then um canned pineapple. Oh, before you put the canned pineapple, some cashews, like a bunch of like cashews, saute those in with it, then um canned pineapple, tomato paste, and uh coconut milk. And you then you probably will not need any sugar, but you'll need salt, and sometimes I'll hit it with soy or some sort of umami stuff, and then you blend that, and that's a great sauce base for uh like uh and we typically do that in bowls with uh steamed vegetables, but it's like it's kind of a bootleg uh navertan, and we make that a lot, so that's real good.
+
+[53:06] And it lasts a while. Is that helpful or no? Um what are your top fruits that you uh can eat so many and have to hold yourself back to stop eating them? What you got any of your top fruit stuff? Oh yeah, what's the most you've ever eaten?
+
+[53:21] Have you ever had if you ever stopped eating them because you wanted to or just because you ran out? Ran out. You know what? We gotta go at some point once this is all over. We gotta go and visit uh like a farmer.
+
+[53:34] Put them on like a passion fruit like farmer, and say, listen, what's gonna happen is like we're gonna put you on the show, whatever you need, whatever you need out of us, we're gonna give you. And then you're just gonna keep bringing passion fruits to Nastasia until she says stop, and I'm just gonna count. Sounds good. You wanna do that? Mm-hmm.
+
+[53:53] That'd be great. Uh when I was in Panama once, I was with uh Andy Ricker and some other people, and we bought like, you know, those like uh like laundry bags, like those mesh bags that are like that that like onions come in, the giant sacks, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, like not the two-pound ones you get at the grocery store, like the industrial ones, the big ones. Uh we had a sack of mango steens, and we ate that whole damn thing. And I and if someone had handed me more mango steens, I would have been like, yes, I'll eat more manga steens.
+
+[54:23] I once ate so many kiwis in a row that my mouth started bleeding. And I don't even love I mean, I like Kiwis, but I don't love them. It's just once I'm in a fruit mode, I just keep going. I've have I told the raspberry story on the air before? No.
+
+[54:39] So I was 20, I don't think I was married yet. So I was 23. And I had just graduated college. I was making uh I was, you know, had a really crappy job making like you know almost nothing. And um we went to pick your own, and in my mind, pick your own was like, well, it's like free, right?
+
+[55:01] I'm picking my own. Like, that's like all the money's in the labor, right? So, like, it's not it's gonna cost me anything. So, like, my sister-in-law Miley, who now runs the food network, uh, by the way, I gotta mention that, um and Jen, we're picking our own raspberries, and I have styles, I mean, you know how I am. I wasn't picking any raspberries.
+
+[55:19] Jen was picking raspberries, Miley was picking raspberries, I was just eating raspberries, right? I didn't pick anything. I spent the entire time we were out there in the in the raspberry patch eating raspberries. So then they have these like big book big buckets, like giant tubs, and we get up to the to the thing, and we're like, we're like 10 people back in line, and I start seeing people ringing up and how much money this costs, right? And I'm like, oh my god, we have no, there's no way we're gonna pay for all of these raspberries.
+
+[55:49] What the hell are we gonna do? So I was like, hold on a minute. So I take our buckets and I go back into the raspberry zone, into the raspberry patch, and Jen and Miley are thinking that I'm gonna dump these raspberries, right? And instead, I just go back in there and I'm just face hoovering, like double-handed, jamming raspberries in my mouth, like as fast as I can possibly do it. I've made I've never eaten because you can never afford it.
+
+[56:18] I've like it's like imagine if you were to dive into a pool of raspberries with your mouth wide open and you were just a tube. You were just a tube like like a worm, and that's how many raspberries were going in your mouth. And I came back with like two with like two pints of raspberries. It cost us like five bucks, and then they were right next to it, or ten bucks, right next to it, there was a little thing, and I I could barely move because my belly was so full of raspberries. There was a little thing called a sin bin, and it's like because we know you've tried them out in the field.
+
+[56:47] So I put five dollars in the sin bin, and that was it. So that was my raspberry moment. And it was I still love raspberries, but it took me at least a day before I could eat another raspberry. That's how much I like raspberries. That that's the only that's the length of time I had to take off.
+
+[57:02] What about you, uh, John? You ever fruited up anything big? No, I I think in a similar vein. I think it was it was either raspberries or blueberries when we were living in France, and yeah, I don't know, whichever one it was, I was just sucking them down, but I was like a year's old, so I don't remember. But that's probably like the most intense fruit binge I've been on.
+
+[57:22] My favorite way to eat blueberries is to put them in a quart container and basically like drink chew them. You know what I mean? And like my standard serving is three quarters of a quart of blueberries. I don't blend them or anything, I'll just like hang uh hang because I think berries taste better in huge quantities. Like, I don't believe a berry tastes better like one at a time.
+
+[57:41] Do you guys believe that? No. No, they don't. Uh I'm gonna give a shout out. Uh, speaking of since I mentioned Miley, uh, Wiley, my brother-in-law Wiley Dufrain has his uh his pizza pop-up, Stretch Pizza, at uh at Bread's in Union Square.
+
+[57:57] So go check it out. He has uh he's tastes they were they were very crispy, super crispy. In fact, he was like, he was he's been working, he's been talking to me about these pizzas because he's been working on pizzas for a while. And he's like, Yeah, we just changed the recipe, and like we get it's real crispy, like we're super happy with it. So then I was like, yesterday he's like, How is the pizza?
+
+[58:15] I was like, good, really, really crispy. He's like, was it too crispy? Too crispy? I'm like, Wiley, what are you freaking nuts? What are you crazy?
+
+[58:20] You've been working on crispy this whole time because he wants like that New York style, like crispy crust. You like crispy or you like floppy crust does? Crispy. Crispy. So you would like it.
+
+[58:29] And he has, of course, he's Wiley, so he has some interesting flavors. He has a he has an everything bagel pizza. Sound it sounds good, is good. What do you guys think about the idea of an everything bagel pizza? Uh it's not tomato-based, it's not a tomato sauce, it's a white sauce.
+
+[58:43] Sounds good. I don't like everything bagel. Some ice cream company came out with uh everything bagel spice ice cream. That sounds a little strange to me. I mean, I would eat it.
+
+[58:54] I would eat it. Uh you don't like everything bagels? What's your favorite bagel flavor? Plain. Really?
+
+[59:02] Mm-hmm. You know what? I kind of appreciate that about you. Uh egg or plain plain. Uh plain.
+
+[59:10] And do you like plain cream cheese on it? Yep. Locks? Yep. Any tomato or anything or just plain?
+
+[59:18] Just plain. A little salt. Uh, sure. Do you put tomato on or no tomato? Depends on the season.
+
+[59:26] Okay. I'm just curious. I just it's interesting facts. Again, I kind of appreciate it. Um, the uh other thing he did that uh people who know Wiley know that he uh likes a scrambled egg.
+
+[59:38] Doesn't like loves a scrambled egg. He did a scrambled egg calzone with like a thin, hyper crispy calzone with like scrambled egg and the on the inside, scrambled egg not overcooked. What do you think of this concept? It sounds good. It was good.
+
+[59:52] You should go to uh stretch pizza uh right off Union Square and give it a shot. I don't know how long the pop-up's gonna last thing. He said it's indefinite. So obviously, if it's indefinite, I don't know how long it's gonna last. Anyways.
+
+[1:00:05] Uh alright. Anything else we're missing? I got some more questions. I'm uh oh, Rob Russo on the way out wants to know have we ever tried Mandarin quats? Nastasia's the queen of the mandarin quat.
+
+[1:00:16] Are you not? They're real good. They're real good. I like any form of quat. I think like I think cum quats and any form, some of the like lime quats and stuff are a little too sour to just sit there and pound all day.
+
+[1:00:30] But I was very disappointed in my children because I couldn't get them to appreciate uh uh cumquats or any any kind of fancy quat, and I take that as uh a sign that I've failed as a parent because they are they are delicious. But Rob will send you a pound of his Mandarin quats if you want to check out listen, Rob. When Nastasia was in California, she would go to the Santa Monica market like on the regular and just search out the world's greatest quat formats. Is that not true, Stuz? Yeah, I miss all of the stuff there and the giant artichokes.
+
+[1:01:06] Yeah, I but you don't trim your artichokes at all, right? No. You and you like your artichokes just basically untrimmed plain boiled. Yep. Okay.
+
+[1:01:16] And do you you don't do you you don't peel the stem at all? No, I I trim this the stem down to the base. Oh, all the way, so you don't even eat the stem. No, I don't. I take the end of the stem off and then peel it.
+
+[1:01:28] Because I find I think it's delicious. You ever you ever buy the crappy little ones and do the full turning where you turn it and basically throw everything but the heart away? No. Real pain fabricating those things. The worst.
+
+[1:01:39] The worst. What fabricating those things? Yeah. And and and then you forget to wash your board adequately and your board is bitter. Oh my god, bitter board.
+
+[1:01:47] You ever had a bitter board problem? Oh the bitter board. And what and John, what do you add to your poaching liquid uh to keep the stuff uh from turning? Do you do what do you do classic? Are you like uh what what do you do?
+
+[1:02:00] Lemons. Lemons? I used to I used to so where Nastasia uh used to live and I used to live, but not at the same time, never at the same time. There was a uh a cheap fruit market called Styles, and they had two different styles markets. There was the you know, one that was four blocks south and one that was three blocks north of where I lived.
+
+[1:02:21] And then uh and they were super cheap, but every once in a while they would get kind of like just slightly over the hill artichokes, and they were fundamentally free. You ever done that at uh at Style Stas? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like for a period for the five years that I lived in that neighborhood, I cooked an unbelievable amount of artichokes just because you would go in and you know you couldn't even carry the amount of artichokes you could afford. That's how cheap the artichokes were at styles.
+
+[1:02:50] And so like, yeah, we I would do I would do artichokes every which way. So I got really fast at turning artichokes. Not a skill you necessarily want, but yeah, I got real fast to turn it. But Nastasi doesn't appreciate a turned artichoke. I find Nastasia that if you're going to have a bunch of people over, they prefer them kind of poached off and then quartered into hearts that have been turned and everything.
+
+[1:03:11] Just saying. Okay, that's not my thing. You think people, regular randos like to have like that all that huge pile of leaves and they're dipping and dipping and straining it in their teeth? I like doing that. I that's the only way I serve it, so if they don't like it.
+
+[1:03:27] They can get out. They can get the hell out. And do you do you serve both butter and mayonnaise? No, just butter. Oh, I'm a mayonnaise man.
+
+[1:03:36] John? Only mayo, yeah. Yeah. Matt, where are you? Where are you on this?
+
+[1:03:41] Now choose wisely. I can't be the tiebreaker. I I was spacing out. I didn't listen. Artichokes.
+
+[1:03:52] Butter. Oh, Christ. All right. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast.
+
+[1:04:02] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio.
+
+[1:04:17] You can also find us at Facebook.com slash Heritage Radio Network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member.
+
+[1:04:40] Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening. And then
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit FergusonHome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products. Or book an appointment at one of our showrooms where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way. Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at FergusonHome.com.
+
+[0:30] This episode is brought to you by Just Egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U dot S T slash H R N. This week on Meet and Three, we're celebrating the food culture of South Carolina with its chef ambassadors.
+
+[0:52] I'm super excited that it's soft show crab season. Those little suckers are delicious. People think, oh, tomato's a tomato. No, that is uh a good tomato and a bad tomato. So when they come to Hampton, or even uh, you know, even in South Carolina, you can really find uh incredible ingredient.
+
+[1:14] We started getting lettuce from Micro Leon Farms in Conway. He's it's a super sweet family that runs that little farm. Tune in to Meet and Three, available wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from well, you know, whenever we can make it.
+
+[1:42] Really, honestly, whenever we can make it. Uh, got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez up there in Stanford. How you doing? Hello. Good.
+
+[1:50] We got uh we got John, he's in New York right now, right? Yep. Correct. And uh Matt and his Heidi Hole booth up there in uh Rhode Island uh and Providence Lands or whatever they're calling it now. Yeah.
+
+[1:59] Um yeah. Uh by the way, Rhode Island people. I'm gonna so I have a bunch of announcements, but first I want to mention this because I know I'm gonna forget. So in pr in uh not in Providence, but uh what's it called? There there's there's a town called North Kingston up there, right?
+
+[2:19] Yeah. Yeah. So in North Kingston, when I was a kid, there was an all-you can eat. This is gonna be long and ridiculous. There was an all-you-could eat seafood joint called Custy's, which they reopened in Stonington, like sometime in the early 2000s, but it closed right away.
+
+[2:34] But back in the 70s and 80s when I went, you could go to this place, and it was, you ready for it? All you could eat lobster. Can you believe that? Like, good, good lobster. You know, all you could eat.
+
+[2:48] And so you know, that's crazy. You'd go in, you know, and like the guy, I was a kid when I went, but like I was uh I was a little I was a little uh little fire plug of a kid I could eat, you know what I mean? Uh and uh I mean I was weak but big, you know what I mean? Husky is what we call it now in the trade. Uh anyway, so like uh I went in there and they were trying to figure out whether they were gonna charge me the kids value meal or the adults value meal, and they charged me a kids, and boy, did I rake them over the coals, dude?
+
+[3:21] You know how much lobster I ate? Oh my goodness. And it was like I looked up a picture of it from the old school days, and it was like like uh how many of you have like grandparents with a wood paneled basement? Like, or you can kind of picture that wood paneled basement, right? So this entire restaurant was kind of wood paneled, and it had like, and this is I only went once, and I was maybe 9 to 11 somewhere in there.
+
+[3:44] I still vividly remember it. Like, you know, like you were at a wedding, huge trays of like shrimp. Imagine like if shrimp cocktail like got like hit with the same meteor that like you know uh made those animals big in the in the uh in rampage. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm saying like huge shrimp cocktail.
+
+[4:05] So you would pound that and then eat infinite lobsters. Doesn't that sound fun? Are they still in business? No, those guys well they didn't get driven out of business. Uh they were also near a college town, which is so weird, right?
+
+[4:17] There's a college near North Kingston, right, Matt? Yeah, you are Iep. Yeah. So it's like, I mean, I can't imagine opening that. They must have priced it just above what the college students could afford at the time, and uh, because otherwise they would have been coming completely hosed.
+
+[4:31] I think someone, the record I looked it up, the record was 60 lobsters. Can you believe that? Oh crazy. I mean, like at that point, you're like, congratulations, sir, never come again. You know what I mean?
+
+[4:43] Congratulations, sir, please never come again. Here's a plaque. Um, but like, yeah, no, they they the guy retired, closed it, and then somebody like there there was still in the early 2000s, like, you know, that 20, you know, that whatever, like 15 year nostalgia for something that had closed, so someone tried to reopen it, right? Uh, and it I just don't I just don't think they got the the numbers to work right out of North Stonington. Anyway, so that that got me thinking there used to be a line of uh kind of lobster joints, like stretching, starting the first ones were like around in Mystic, Connecticut, right before the Rhode Island border, right?
+
+[5:22] And then they would go all the way up to Maine, all these lobster joints, and then it got me thinking about a restaurant that I never went to, but once I heard the name of it, I've always regretted. Because I used to go to Mystic and Groton back when it was open. I just didn't know about it. You ready for the name of this restaurant that really existed? Yeah.
+
+[5:44] Don Juan's International Combat Style Cuisine. Hell yes. Yeah. Oh, oh yeah. Don Juan's international combat style cuisine.
+
+[6:02] Yeah. Yeah. It was it was you should bring that back. Well, that's what I'm trying to do. That was what I just thought.
+
+[6:09] Really? Well, okay, so here's the story, people. Here's a story. Here's the story. This restaurant was, it wasn't in Mystic, it was in uh it was in a Groton, right?
+
+[6:18] Like, you know, like across the river. Now, for those of you that have never been to that section of Connecticut, like that is a navy town. That's where, like, you know, that's where electric boat is where we make all of our uh submarines in this country. It's like a navy town. Like, it is like all navy up and down.
+
+[6:37] There's a big sub-base there. It's like huge. And I look, I'm not gonna completely dox the guy out, right? But I f I figured out, I mean, like, I figured out the name. It was it was a brothers, two brothers, right?
+
+[6:50] It was it was Donzell and I forget his brother's name, I think Joel or something. They came from a big family out of that area, right? Out of the you know, kind of the New London area. And he went to John the the one went to Johnson and Wales and was like, let's start a restaurant. And they were they were basically just kids, so they were like, What's a fun name?
+
+[7:11] Because he had spent his whole life cooking, he came from a big family, and I again I did a deep dive, and he's hard to find this guy. And uh I've never spoken to him. But he uh his I think it was his dad was in the Navy for a long time, so I guess, and it's a Navy town. So they were like, Combat style cuisine, Don Juan's international combat style cuisine. And they opened it up and it was a BYO joint, right?
+
+[7:34] So all of the kids from the entire area back in the 80s who were underage would go there when they were and have their 18th, 19th, 20th birthday parties, and because the owners were basically also you know young, uh, you know, in their 20s at the time, they were like, nah, who cares? And so then it would just serve, and apparently everyone, you know, loved the the food that they were cooking, and it was great. Problem was they expanded to a second location, couldn't handle the expansion, and shut both down. This was in this shut down probably in the 90s. Alright, now you with me now.
+
+[8:09] So I then traced this chef, right? After he, you know, closed Don Juan's international combat style cuisine. I traced him to a uh lobster shack, then apparently the food there was uh great, right? And then uh he quit that he hasn't been there in a number of years. He was there.
+
+[8:30] I found a newspaper article that referenced him cooking uh like seafood there in about 20 years ago, right? About 15 to 20 years ago. I call that restaurant, Cole called them. I was like, hi, does this chef still cook for you guys? And they're like, no.
+
+[8:45] I'm like, ooh, well, how long have you worked there? Uh three and a half years. Well, did he ever work there when you were there? No. So remember, I still don't know that he's alive at this point, right?
+
+[8:56] So then I find another like reference behind a paywall in some podunk, like, you know, uh Southern Connecticut newspaper rating something I can't get to, but I it's it mentions in the photo the chef's name and then and the owner of this new of this other place. So I go, I find it, it's a seasonal lobster uh like like lobster shack thing near Mystic, and I call those guys. I was like, yo, is uh is uh Chef Donzel still cooking there? And they're like, uh yeah, but he hasn't started again for this season, so he's not in today. I'm like, what what what what what?
+
+[9:34] They're like in two weeks he's he's gonna come in and he's gonna be working for the season. So we're gonna go there. We're going to uh you know get some lobster, and then we're gonna be like, will you do a pop-up of Don Juan's international combat style cuisine? Right? Yes.
+
+[9:54] You found a little blurb about it in the New York Times. It's a curious name for a restaurant, it's as curious a name for a restaurant as the food it serves, combining quote the old Southwest, Louisiana, Jamaica, Mexico, Italy, and our own heritage here in New England. Yeah, yeah. I think he had Caribbean roots. Like, you know, I I think I like I didn't want to go like too far into this guy's personal life without talking to him first.
+
+[10:20] You know what I mean? So, like, you know, I like uh, but uh is the idea that like all of the international cuisines are engaged in combat on the menu of this restaurant? He was quoted once, so uh one of the articles I found on him, uh he was cooking for a uh uh a charity for like a Julia Childs charity. She wasn't there, she was still alive at the time. And uh there they asked him about it because the restaurant had only been closed like two or three years at that point.
+
+[10:52] So they asked him about it. And I think he just said we thought it was a fun sounding name that people would remember. I mean, it's like 30 years later, and yeah, uh, we remember. You know what I mean? It's like um, so yeah, you know, I mean, I just I would just love to, I would love you know what we need to do, Nastasia?
+
+[11:10] Let's do we'll make some drinks. We'll figure out a place, we'll do a pop-up, and then we'll have him just come do the the cooking, maybe after he's done for the season. I don't know what you know what he does after the season, and we'll do uh we'll do a whole thing. We'll do Don Juan's international combat uh style cuisine uh thro th throwback pop-up. I'm down, man.
+
+[11:29] I mean, I'm so excited for this. Yeah, like that. And he doesn't care what we do for uh drinks anyway, because remember the original was BYO. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[11:40] Let's do mango lassies. Why? Because that's in international. Do you like those? Yes.
+
+[11:48] Really? With dinner? Are they good with spicy food? Yeah. I I look, I don't again, I think he can cook a wide variety of things.
+
+[11:59] For the past 20 years or so, he's been a good thing. I just am craving those. All right, we'll make them, we'll make them. We'll make them for you. We'll make them.
+
+[12:05] Do you know how to make them or not? Yeah. I mean, I can find a recipe, but we'll make them. We'll make them. But like, you know, as for me, like, you know, that's a little bit heavy on the drink side for me for when I'm eating.
+
+[12:17] That's also like part of the meal at that point. Whatever. We will make them. If you crave them, we will make them. That's how this is gonna work.
+
+[12:26] Because uh, you know, because that's what it is. All right, so now uh I got that off my uh off my head. I I haven't forgotten to uh mention it. And if any of you out there have ever eaten there, let us know. Or have any memories of uh Don Juan's international combat style cuisine, which by far and away the greatest restaurant name ever.
+
+[12:49] It's like how like so on that's on one side of the spectrum of restaurant names, and what's on the other side? What's the worst restaurant names? Oh, I don't know. Uh English is Italian. Oh, Todd English.
+
+[13:02] English is Italian, terrible name. I have nothing against Todd English, but that's a terrible name for a restaurant. Am I wrong? I thought you didn't like him. I don't know.
+
+[13:09] Why would I not like him? I have nothing, I've never met the guy personally. Why would I not like him? I just think that's a terrible name for a restaurant. What do you think?
+
+[13:17] Uh I heard he has a very large head, right? Or is that Tyler Florence who has a very large physical head? They both do. John, what's your least favorite restaurant name? I don't know if I can think of one off the top of my head.
+
+[13:33] But English is Italian, it's pretty terrible. It's a terrible name. It's as joke names go, it's especially bad. Uh because he's is he's not whatever, I don't want to get into it. Uh now, I think FUDRuckers is a bad name.
+
+[13:49] Oh, yeah, that's a bad name. Yeah. Yeah. Good one. Yeah.
+
+[13:53] Nastasia, what are your what are your feelings on FUDRuckers? Yeah. Bad. Bad. Bad, right?
+
+[13:58] Bad. Um, all right. So now on to the announcements. If you have tuned in, because you were hoping to hear uh the wisdom of Pierre Chom, our friend, uh Chef Pierre Chom. Uh, I have made an error.
+
+[14:13] He is not on today. You can turn off right now. He's gonna be on on May 11th, so please send us uh any questions. For those of you that don't know him, uh, and I'll I'll reiterate this when he comes on. Uh I first met him years ago when he was uh preparing for his appearance on Iron Chef at the at the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[14:34] Uh Koji did not, Koji, John's dog, did not know that Pierre had been on Iron Chef, and so was so surprised when I said he was an Iron Chef that he gave a bark. I forget who he was, uh I forget who he was against. Anyway, uh and then uh he took me to Senegal. Uh but the reason we're having him on in particular right now isn't because of his great cookbooks that he wrote on Senegal, which we'll also talk about, uh, but because he started a food business. And I know a lot of you out there listening to this who are either coming up in the food industry or uh or maybe not in the food industry at all, or maybe you're a cook and you're thinking of branching out into um starting a food business.
+
+[15:15] Uh remember Nastasia that we what we used to work for? Food school. Food school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
+
+[15:22] So if you're looking at starting a food business, uh Pierre has started a food business and a complicated one at that, because it involves exporting a product from uh one country to another. Uh it involves dealing with uh farmer equity because he's you know dealing with uh farmers in um in you know his native uh country of Senegal and importing them here, and you know, he everyone's worried whether or not you know the farmers over there that he's using are gonna the same kinds of things are gonna happen that happened in Quinoa. You guys all familiar with the quinoa troubles? Yep. Yeah.
+
+[15:57] Uh for those of you out there who are not matter, you familiar I'm sure you're familiar with the heritage now. Anyone working for Heritage has to be familiar with the quinoa troubles, right? Indeed. Yeah. So for those of you that like aren't part of that world, um, what happened was is that you know uh people up here with a lot of money decided that quinoa was the next great thing that everyone should uh eat, and we bought uh so much of it that the people who actually depended on eating quinoa, like because that's what they ate, didn't have it anymore.
+
+[16:30] And so it was a huge nightmare uh Koji agrees. And the uh so you know one of the things Pierre had to navigate was that. So we're gonna talk to him about that. So if you know, ask us any questions about you know how to make sure that you're not shafting uh the people in the country that you're getting it from. And by the way, he's doing a lot of work on that front uh on what it's like to package, make, sell, distribute, uh, or any random questions you have about Senegalese uh ingredients.
+
+[17:00] Uh uh get get us those uh by May 11th. And here's the next announcement. So starting possibly next week, but possibly on the 11th, um, we are going to uh reach a long time dream of uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, correct Nastasia? We are going to be recording at the uh newsstand studios in Rockefeller Center. So we will be saying live from Rockefeller Center.
+
+[17:31] Uh we're not sure if we're gonna get it for the the fourth, uh, but starting um you know, at least by Pierre's on on May on May 11th. And we're gonna record same same time, right? Uh, and we're trying to figure out dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's. We don't know the chat room probably won't work uh right away, but we're gonna figure out how how to get you know all the functionality back to you guys as fast as possible. Please, for any updates on that, look to uh cooking issues on Twitter, look to cooking issues on Instagram or Booker and Dax on uh Booker Booker Dax lab, right on Instagram.
+
+[18:10] Is that pretty accurate? No, I think we're just Booker and Dax now, right, John? Yep, we dropped the lab. Okay, Booker, yeah, because everyone's like, where's your lab? It's up your butt.
+
+[18:18] Right. Uh yeah, so yeah, but so Booker and Dax on uh Instagram, and we will keep you posted as soon as we get more information. And last announcement before we get to uh questions, uh you ready for it, people? Amazon is still hosing us for the Sears all. However, however, however, we have a new business.
+
+[18:44] What's the name of this business, Nastasia? Oh, I thought we hired a new business, but okay. Okay, we hired a new business. Their employees are Nastasia, Dave, and John, and this new business's name that has no relationship to Booker and Dax whatsoever. This completely unrelated business venture.
+
+[19:02] What is it called, Nastasia? Trailing Edge Technologies. Now we will have to start another business. No, we're fine. Amazon does not believe us.
+
+[19:10] Amazon does not listen to us. They still think we sell menstrual cups. Now listen, the reason trailing edge technologies is such a great business is because we are the stuff that really happens after all the lifting takes place. Like we're this stuff where if it falls off the plane, what happens, Stas? Uh the plane still lands.
+
+[19:29] Yeah, oh, yeah. Don't worry. Plane's gonna land fine. Like, you know, maybe, you know, maybe the flight's gonna cost a little more because we burned a little more fuel, but don't worry, you're gonna land fine. We are trailing edge technologies.
+
+[19:42] So if we and Nastasia has engineered uh a load of Searsols to appear on eBay to be uh and she's using a company that's very good for fulfillment. So we expect it to be the fulfillment to be like as good. I don't know whether it would be just as fast, but fast. No, Amazon style test. No, it's gonna be two to three days.
+
+[20:06] So everyone's calm down. And then two, no international. So sorry, Canada. Is Canada still international? Do you know my new driver's license allows me to go to Canada without a uh definitely international?
+
+[20:19] So just the US. Alright. Alright. Well, anyway, we're gonna have a load of US uh Searsols. It is actually in the country, which is why I'm talking to you about it.
+
+[20:32] It is actually in the warehouse. We're just waiting for the last little weird PayPal nonsenses to get uh updated. However, I can assure you on a stack of choose the religious tome of your choice that uh the the trailing edge technology, Sears Alls, Trailing Edge Technologies is the only authorized reseller currently of Searsols. All other ones are jokers, lies, cheats, or someone trying to swindle you. So trailing edge technologies are are like that's gonna be the way to get it on eBay going forward.
+
+[21:10] Is this true or false and stuff? Yep. That's that's awesome that you guys have finally figured out a way of making this work through all this nonsense. Anyway, and then hopefully, you know, in four months, we'll have a way to get back onto Amazon. But you know, we we can't wait around and get completely bankrupted waiting for for you know, waiting for the world to change.
+
+[21:35] You know what I mean? Yep, yep. And just real quick, so when everything's live, just everyone knows, we'll send out a newsletter and we'll post it on our social medias as well, so you guys can find the link right up there and don't have to wade through all the nonsense ones. Yeah, I mean if look, if you if you're interested, you could always just follow Booker and Dax on Instagram or cooking issues on Instagram or on the uh Twitter, right? Yep, especially if you want to hear like updates about when the Don Juan's international combat style cuisine is gonna happen.
+
+[22:06] But my guess is that's probably gonna be in the fall, right? Yeah. Because we might be doing additional stuff too. Well, also, he's but he's working, right? I'm not gonna like try to take him out of his current job and you know for one night.
+
+[22:24] Yeah. What? What? What are you saying about me? Nothing.
+
+[22:29] What? No, come on. It's hard to get you to do stuff. Alright. Alright.
+
+[22:37] This man erected a teepee for you. Yeah. Yes, I helped him move a piano once, so I think we're even. I helped you move your fireplace. I babysat your case.
+
+[22:50] And by the way, when you you helped me move the piano, you had a truck because I was giving you stuff like kayaks. Uh I gave you kayaks. We're not gonna go, we're not gonna go into this. This could easily chew up the next 34 minutes. Yeah, now I see why we're not gonna go into it.
+
+[23:09] No, I don't. Uh-huh. That Booker video didn't get out anywhere. Uh I could see, by the way, right? Oh, sorry.
+
+[23:17] When you when you when Stas was like, I feel like I babysat your kids, I was like, after last week's show where Booker did the video thing, I feel like I've babysat your kids. But anyway, uh did that video get posted anywhere where I can see it? I don't think so. He's Booker, like He doesn't want to mess up his Instagram with stuff like that. It's well curated.
+
+[23:38] Okay, so for those of you that like don't know like so I have two kids, I have Booker and Dax. Yeah, that you know the company i i is named after anyway. So like, you know, you know, Booker is, you know, he's on the spectrum, and that's fine. You know, he knows that we talk about it. It's it's great.
+
+[23:52] And but like he has certain reactions that you just can't like so something happened in literally he just told us he's 19. Something happened in middle school that pissed him off about his email, and so just three days ago he obliterated his old email and started fresh. I'm like, Booker, what the heck, man? He's like, Well, it's done now. I was like, what could have happened in middle school?
+
+[24:17] He's like, I don't want to talk about it. Isn't that? I mean, like, I still don't know. I don't know. So, you know, the odds of me getting it in a situation where, you know, I mean maybe maybe he'll send the video and we can post it to uh one of our stories or something like this.
+
+[24:30] How about that? And he definitely, as Nastasia says, you know, try to get him to post something that's not a a very particular subway thing on his uh on his Instagram and good luck. He has a very, he has a very uh you know, a decent following of uh fellow rail fanners on his uh yeah on this thing. New York City Subway, by the way, somehow, you know, I don't know. New York City Subway, I love the subway.
+
+[24:58] I love our subway system, not back yet. You know what I mean? It's not, it's it still feels a little bit crazy down there in the subway. You know what I mean? Because I think a lot of the normals like haven't gone back to it yet.
+
+[25:10] Yeah. That makes sense. Does it really? Yeah, it just feels like the you know how like people who aren't from New York, they're like, um, oh, New York, there's so many crazy people in New York. Oh, I don't want to, oh, it's uh, and you're like, no, listen, it's like there's eight million people here.
+
+[25:28] Yeah. And so you we have our percentage of crazy people, but you see them more than you would see them in a town of like 20,000 people because you know, you know where the three crazies are in that town of 20,000 people, and you can just avoid them or they stay in their house or whatever. And in New York, you see them, right? Mm-hmm. What's crazy now is that like in New York, the people without masks are the crazy people, you know, and you're like weird.
+
+[25:54] I think it's good though, because it gives you a signal. It's a signal. I enjoy a signal. You know what I mean? Um I enjoy a signal, right?
+
+[26:02] And then there's the other thing in New York that like uh, you know, if you're smoking or drinking really crappy coffee, you also don't need to wear a mask, obviously. My favorite are the people walking down the street who pull down their mask to talk on the cell phone. Like, what? You want me to lip read what you're saying? They can hear you through the freaking mask on the cell phone.
+
+[26:19] Whatever. That's not just a New York phenomenon. Just to be clear, it's happening here as well. Really? What?
+
+[26:25] That the cell phone requires the mask? The cell phone must you can't possibly communicate on a cell phone with a mask on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[26:33] When I'm talking to someone in person, though, I do use, like, like, you know, in inside, like when we're all vaccinated and stuff, like, I actually, when there's a lot of noise, I do use the lip references. So it is useful, but it's not useful over a cell phone because they can't see your lips anyway. Um, but like, so Nastasi and I always used to comment, and it's springtime too. Once the weather gets to a certain point in New York City, the flowers and the crazies come out. Right?
+
+[26:59] So it's like Well, it's because it's it follows like an animalistic thing, right? People start, they they get in heat. So wow, I'm not gonna go there, Nastasia. But family show, we can't talk about procreation. I wasn't talking about procreation.
+
+[27:15] I was just talking about referring to all these people as though they were animalistic. He doesn't want to see them okay, okay, there we go. Like springtime people they they feel it. They go into heat. Well, all I'm saying is is that also the people who used to like spend most of their time like, you know, yelling at nothing, were yelling at nothing inside, and now they're yelling at nothing outside.
+
+[27:40] You know what I mean? So it's temperature's better, yeah. Yeah, it's nicer. It's nicer. Yeah.
+
+[27:45] Anyway, so the subway, like a lot of the what, you know, I'll for lack of a better word called the normals, haven't gone back to the subway yet. And so the the uh relative proportions of the people like, you know, dissolving into themselves in the seats without a mask and screaming at nothing is higher. Yeah. That's all I'm gonna say. Yeah.
+
+[28:06] Anyway, not cooking it. Too far from the combat style cuisine. The second Josh Bauer would like to ask you, how do you feel about Florida lobster? Why are they asking about Florida lobster? Well, because it's not a lobster.
+
+[28:19] Oh, it's a different species, anyway. You're talking about like like rock lobsters and things like that. Now you have that freaking song going through my head. Oh my god. That's a gift.
+
+[28:30] No, but it's going through my head, and the descending rock lobster is going through my head. And now I can see a bunch of people in like 1990, like getting lower and lower on the dance floor during the rock lobster part. The B-52s, for those of you that don't know, like were a band for a while, came back with uh basically two hits, The Love Shack and Rock Lobster, right? And they were played non-stop on dance floors in like you know, my college era, right? Non-stop.
+
+[29:05] And so uh yeah, it bring it brings that back. They were good tunes though. What like uh does anyone still listen to uh did you ever did they play that on dance floors in colleges when you were uh around uh Nastasia? Uh not that, but you know my favorite Long Island radio station, uh the lead singer of the B-52s always calls in and makes requests because I guess he lives somewhere out there. It's really weird.
+
+[29:26] Really? It's really weird. Is he like is he like ask for Love Shack? Play Love Shack! He asks for really random, random shit.
+
+[29:35] Like and can you identify him just by that voice? Yeah, or I got a blur says big as a whale. They realized they were like, wait a minute, is this what's his name? Is this I can't remember his name from the B-52s? And he's like, Yeah.
+
+[29:50] And then they had him on, like DJing one night because he's not doing anything. Yeah. I would listen to that. Really? No, you can't.
+
+[29:57] The guy's got a Chrysler. See, it's 20. See, it's 20. You disparaged my station for years. Uh, I did not disparage your station.
+
+[30:05] I spared you listening to it. You couldn't even go to the basement and pick up your cannolis. Nastasia listens to a radio station. It's so local. We're literally like, it's like when we're talking about garbage and no one knows what's going on.
+
+[30:17] It's like, imagine that, but like they're broadcasting it in the air, not on the internet. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, just as you know, uh Nancy spoiled the cannolis. So don't go, there's no cannolis in the church basement this weekend. You gotta wait.
+
+[30:31] She's gonna try to get them for Wednesday, all right? So don't pick up your cannolis. That's what the kind of level of radio station that Nastasia listens to. It's awesome. Come down to the car wash, support the hockey team.
+
+[30:45] You know what I mean? It's like that. Like that's the radio she listens to, which is fine, but it's not her hockey team because there's a body of water between the room. You know why I you know why I listened to it though? Because they the DJs actually play music that that they want to play and they take requests.
+
+[31:00] And when I was in LA, there was a like all the radio stations are like, you know, the same. Same in New York. Like, I didn't realize that DJs pre-program all of their songs, and it makes me really sad. You didn't realize that? No, this one DJ was like, so I got an email from this woman yesterday.
+
+[31:15] Her mother died. She was driving home from the funeral, and she wanted me to play this song, but you know, we pre program here every day, so I'm playing it today. Hope that's okay. And I was like, oh my god, this one was driving home, wanted a request, they couldn't fit it in because that's how pre programmed it is. Like being a DJ is on a radio is an art, right?
+
+[31:32] Or lost long lost art or something. Yeah, no one's been a live DJ in like a billion years. Well, FMU, they do it. Who does? FMU.
+
+[31:42] Is that the nine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to that one too out here in the car. Yeah. Yeah, it's great.
+
+[31:48] Haven't you seen the movie Airheads or any of the movies or like any of like the cartoons about or like the regular show episodes where like they make fun of the fact that the radio shows are all just big computers now? With pre-programmed plays, I didn't know that. I think it's terrible. And then you know, like the the classic rock stations will play like uh Bon Jovi at five o'clock because they know all the guys are leaving the garage, like uh whoa. Listen, I like Bon Jovi.
+
+[32:17] I'm not gonna lie to you and say that I don't like Bon Jovi. Um I mean that would be a lie. I would lie to you. I'll be lying to you if I said that. Uh but I never used to call those things classic.
+
+[32:27] I used to just call them like same rock 103. Yeah. You know, cla you know, like all those stations play the same like five songs over and over. Stop believing. Yeah.
+
+[32:41] I mean, why would you ever stop believing? Yeah. Paul Hale had the audacity to put a cooking question in the chat. Let's hear it. Uh two parts.
+
+[32:50] Uh Dave, did you ever figure out a way to keep your bagel seasonings from burning in the oven? Oh my god. I've been using Stella Parks' recipe on and off for two years, which is a 20 minute bake after the boil, but the dried onionslash garlic burns every time. Yeah, it do. Listen, like I don't know the answer to this.
+
+[33:08] By the way, Stella's great. I'm not like uh I want I'd like to have her on the show sometime. Maybe she'll come on, John, see whether we can make that happen. Um that's you know, Brave Tart. Anyway, so um the Here's the thing.
+
+[33:23] So I had a nightmare experience last week. So as you listeners know, uh, and I may give you the recipe for it if I if I can find it real quick, but we've been curing salmon a lot in the house just because I just can't afford to buy cured salmon anymore for Booker because he has gone from being uh a full where he would eat basically the three things he would eat were were pizzas, hamburgers, and like and fish products, right? So he's gotten rid of most pizza. He only likes garbage can pizza and uh and hamburgers and and bacon. So he he basically he only eats fish and and waffles, right?
+
+[34:05] Won't even eat pancakes anymore. So he eats he eats fish, specifically tuna, but I don't want him to get all pivoned out and get all mercury poisoned, so we're trying to limit his tunic fish intake and and salmon. So he like literally before the show, I I taught him how to do uh low temperature salmon. So I do I do uh pre-salt so that the protein doesn't come out, doesn't get that white disgusting stuff. I do pre-salt with a little bit of sugar, 52 uh Celsius till it's warm through, pull out flour on the skin side, butter, pan, sear off, eat, right?
+
+[34:37] That's I taught him how to do that. So now like at random times in the he'll do it for breakfast, he'll do it for lunch. I'll hear the the uh ANOVA kick on, and he's throwing salmon uh like we buy him just a boat ton of salmon fillet, frozen salmon fillets. I know people, I know frozen, but anyway, it's easy for him. So anyway, so but then he also on top of that eats an unconscionable amount of locks.
+
+[34:58] So we've been curing a side of salmon every week, pretty much. Uh and just so you know, um I just want to say, like my parents do not give an F about what I wanted to eat. Okay, are you autistic? Are you autistic? Are you?
+
+[35:13] Are you autistic? Because you sound like it. Yeah. It's like if you're known to the case. You do it for Dax too.
+
+[35:22] I don't. No, Dax eats what we eat. There's no. I'm sorry. No, Dax eats what we eat, please.
+
+[35:27] Okay. I mean, like, you know, just come back and talk to me when you know what you're talking about on that one. But uh the It does have to, he has to hit some other nutritional requirements, though, right? Like sailors would get like berry berry if they just ate finish only. We take him to doctors all the time because he won't listen to us on medical stuff to try to get him to increase.
+
+[35:46] He also eats solid blocks of cheese. Like, you know, that's gonna plug them up. I I what I try to tell him is like if all you eat is cheese, right? That's the equivalent of sticking a cork in your butt from the front side. You know what I mean?
+
+[35:58] I'm like, you need to eat like a variety of things, you know what I mean? Anyways, so yeah, we go to doctors to try to convince him that he needs, you know, whatever. He does it's part of the thing, it's part of the complex of things. So for those of you uh that want to cure salmon at home, the easiest way to do it, in my opinion, is uh to buy the side salmon. When you're looking for a side of salmon, um try to get one that doesn't have a lot of gaps in the fillets.
+
+[36:22] So when you're looking at a salmon fillet, you'll see uh like the the lines of the the muscles, striations, right? Look, especially uh in the in the top section near it near the backbone near the head. That's the thickest part of the muscle, and so that's the most force when it goes into uh rigor mortis, and so that's where you're likely to first see signs of uh gaps in the in the fillet that that mean that it's it's already kind of a little soft, and for you want the firmest fillets possible because you're gonna you're gonna cure them and slice them into like NOVA, right? Uh and so you you want to start with a firmer fillet and not with a softer fillet. And the harder rigor that the salmon has gone through, the kind of softer the fillet is going to be.
+
+[37:05] And you know, it can get to the point where when you pick it up, and I'm sure you know, John, if you've done this a lot, when you pick it up, you know how like your thumb can go through some really soft salmon. Yeah. So that's when it's kind of once if you're starting with that kind of material, you're just not gonna get uh the kind of result that you want. Now, here is where I'm gonna differ because I from anyone who does this professionally. I think it's hard for most people to slice uh salmon nicely, and also if they're kind of big, right?
+
+[37:33] Um so no one would do this, but if you've ever bought Scottish loin uh cured salmon, right? You'll look and it's just the top section, not not the belly. And that gave me the idea that I'm gonna cure them without the skin on. So I I take the skin off, and so to take the skin off of a side of salmon, you put the the tail section down, you make a little cut between the skin and the uh and the tail meat, right, on a flat board. Make sure you know that the thing's laying out flat, and then hold the knife at a little bit of an angle towards the board and just slice back and forth as you push uh through the meat.
+
+[38:13] Try not to have it go up so you lose too much uh salmon, and try not to have it go down so you cut through the skin. It's not a the end of the world if you cut through the skin. And then you have the whole salmon skin, right? So you have the whole salmon skin, now salt, pepper, a little bit of sugar, both sides, put it in an oven at 375 Fahrenheit on a piece of parchment until it gets crispy like a cracker, you're welcome. That is delicious.
+
+[38:38] Never throw that skin away. Then I cut, uh I use the dividing line uh between the the loin, the top, and the belly, and I cut the salmon all the way down the belly line along that white line going down the center. Make sure there's no bones because nothing is gonna kill your slicing of your nova more than a pin bone left in there. Am I right? Alright?
+
+[38:56] So you cut that sucker down the middle, then flip it over to its, and I would do this after you do it. There's a bloodline of a different kind of meat that is left on when you're curing the whole thing, but I think it's better if you take it off because it's it has a little bit of a metallic taste, and it's also the fat in that meat, in that dark brown meat, it tends to go rancid faster. So carefully trim uh that off. So now you have two blocks, a long one from the loin and a long one from the belly. Weigh that, then weigh out 2.5% of that weight.
+
+[39:28] So let's say you had a uh a thousand grams of uh salmon, which is roughly a side of salmon's gonna be roughly 930 grams once it's trimmed. So let's call it a thousand. So uh 2.5%, so that's 25 uh grams of salt, and then half of that of sugar. So I'm using a 2-1 sugar. So that's 1.25% or 12.5 grams of sugar, regular white sugar.
+
+[39:53] You could use whatever you want, but that's what I use. And then here's the miracle. Ready for the miracle, people? Go buy you some hickory smoke powder. Go buy hickory smoke powder.
+
+[40:02] If you can hear me and you don't have hickory smoke powder, go buy hickory smoke powder. And I like this better because it's a dry application, so it's easy to mix it in with the spices as opposed to a liquid smoke, which then needs to be distributed along with liquids. So you get the dry stuff. I find it easier to measure, it's easier to store, it's usually very high quality. Uh, the problem with it is that when you start cooking with it on its own, if you add a little bit too much, it gets acrid the same way that like over smoking something gets acrid.
+
+[40:29] So you're gonna use 0.25%. So that's 2.5 grams for a thousand grams of salmon. You could probably go up to like 0.3 0.3%, so like 3 grams per kilo of salmon, but keep it in there. And what you're doing there is now you don't need to worry about cold smoking. You are welcome.
+
+[40:53] You are welcome. It is delicious. Now you can buy different kind of smoke powder if you don't like hickory, right? But it is just the easiest way to not worry about uh having to smoke the salmon and get a good result. So then what you do, you mix that dry mix up and you evenly distribute it over all of the pieces of salmon on both sides.
+
+[41:12] I also, I mean, I cut it from a long piece, I cut it in half also so that they all fit in a gallon Ziploc bag. So then you coat it all, make sure that that you know you use all of the mix because unlike a recipe where I'm just pretending to know what's going on, I'm using the correct amount of salt and sugar and everything. Get it all massaged in without being be relatively gentle. Stick it into a bag, use the straw, suck the extra air out of the bag, close the Ziploc bag, put it in the fridge for three days. And every two and a half to three days.
+
+[41:44] Uh, and every day or so, pick it up, like you know, flip it over, move it around and make sure everything's getting distributed. Then when you're done after that two and a half, three days, I do three days, pull it out, rinse, rinse, put it on a sheet tray with a cooling rack in your fridge for about four hours. You could do two, I wouldn't go much over four, four, five, six. You're trying to like dry it out a little bit, and that last little drying bit is what's gonna give you the nice sliceable texture. Then use a thin knife and slice away.
+
+[42:14] It's gonna be harder to slice perfect sheets because it's no longer attached to the skin. But because you just cured it fresh and it's nice and firm, thicker slices are going to be nicer than they would be if you uh bought them pre-packaged in uh so that's what I've been doing every week. Um, and it's probably gonna be in the moisture management uh book. So now you make that and then you have it with your bagels. Now we're back to your bagel question.
+
+[42:38] So, poppy seeds on bagels, fine. Um the uh what's it called? Sesame seeds on bagels, fine. Pretzel salt, which is money in the bank if you ask me, on bagels, fine. Pretzel salt though, pretzel salt.
+
+[42:53] Get that when you're getting your uh your smoke powder, get you some pretzel salt. Uh by the way, smoke powder also really good if you're doing jerky. Well, like uh Dax has been making a lot of jerky recently, and we've been adding the smoke powder to our jerky uh recipes because I don't want to have to smoke in my apartment, to be honest. Anyways, um where was I? Oh yeah, onion, dehydrated onion and dehydrated garlic.
+
+[43:15] You put it on the bagels, it burns 100% of the time. I've now tried it five times. I can't get it to not burn. I can't get it to not burn. I followed uh a uh a piece of advice from um Reinhardt, you know, the baker Reinhart, who writes all of the you know, bread baking books that people want, you know, he's one of the more famous bread baking authors.
+
+[43:35] What is it? Peter, right? Peter Reinhardt. Yeah. Uh and he was like, well, what you do is is you rehydrate the onion and the garlic in uh water before you use it.
+
+[43:46] And I was like, oh, that's really smart, right? So I took 30, I took 15 grams of dehydrated garlic and 15 grams of dehydrated onion, and I added uh like I think 80 or 100 grams of warm water, and it soaked up all the water. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be fantastic. This is gonna be great because uh, you know, it's gonna be fantastic. So then uh it turned out that it clumped up with all of my other, so it made putting the the toppings on the bagels a complete nightmare.
+
+[44:15] For those of you that don't know, when you boil the bagel, you pull it out, you gotta it they dry off pretty quick because you're pulling it out of boiling water. So you want to get your toppings on pretty quickly. And it was a huge nightmare. I made a huge mess with all this clumping, wet like garlic and onion, and then guess what, folks? It's still burned.
+
+[44:32] It's still burned. So I don't know what they do. Although the stuff that was actually against the bagel didn't burn, the stuff that was higher up, because it was wet and clumpy, it like there was kind of like two layers. So maybe it was only the top pieces of onion and garlic that burned. It's kind of hard to know.
+
+[44:48] But if any of you has a suggestion, like I'm waiting to hear it. I my guess is is that the people who do it for a living buy a slightly less dehydrated onion and garlic than we do, or they temper it in a way that's a lot better than what I did where it becomes like a soaking mess that then makes it impossible to distribute with um poppy seed and sesame and salt. If I had just done onion and garlic, I probably could have gotten it to work, but I like to do everything, right? I know Nastasia doesn't enjoy an everything bagel, so for her, this doesn't matter, but I I like to do it. I'll give you one more bagel tip since you're not asking people out there.
+
+[45:26] Could you could you hydrate the garlic and the onion? You know, steep them in water and then partially dehydrate them and then add them to your mix? Probably. I mean, I haven't tried that yet. The very last bagel I did was the one where it was a complete nightmare and a m mess everywhere.
+
+[45:41] Nastasia, close your ears! People listen to the show for cooking today. I'm actually giving cooking tips, and you're like, uh, who wants to talk about cooking tips? What happened to like the two-minute answer? Like you've been going to I I with yeah, but I've told not just bagels, I've literally taught them how to cure salmon and how to buy smoke powder and how to use it and why.
+
+[46:01] Great. People are supposed to want to listen to cooking tips. She's she's unimpressed, but chat seems happy. All right. Of course they are.
+
+[46:10] Anyway, so I'm not surprised. I'm glad that they are. No, yeah, yeah, you seem real bad. So anyway, so listen, so uh everyone has problems if you're if you're deciding today that you want to make bagels, right? Most of the recipes for bagels include malt.
+
+[46:26] And malt is hard sometimes to buy at this at the spur of the moment. The reason they use malt is uh malt is what's called a reducing sugar. So it increases uh the browning, right? Uh so anytime you have malt, it's not the same, but regular table sugar that you have is not a reducing sugar, but half of the sugar in honey is so you can add uh honey, right? It'll add a little bit of a flavor as well.
+
+[46:51] But if you want it, if if your recipe has malt in the boiling water, which I I do add some to my boiling water, you you can use honey and it works fine. I also, and I know it's not standard, I add baking soda. I add one percent of baking soda and one percent of uh one percent of baking soda and I think one percent of honey and I think one percent of salt to uh my boiling water. Uh, so try that. I know the the like it's just gonna increase the browning, right?
+
+[47:21] So the baking soda is just gonna increase the brown browning uh if that's something that you care about. That level will only give you a slight pretzelly taste, not a lot, so I don't want to hear it from you people if uh you know, whatever. Anyway. You can get started with a free sample. Just head to J U.S.
+
+[47:53] slash H R N. That's J U. S T slash H R N. Made from plants. Just egg is a better egg for you and for the planet.
+
+[48:05] It's healthier with no cholesterol and less saturated fat. And it's more sustainable. Just egg uses less water and generates fewer carbon emissions. Most importantly, it's delicious. For our listeners who operate a food service establishment, you can get a sample for free.
+
+[48:24] Head to J U.S. slash H R N. That's J U.S T slash H R N. Just Egg makes a delicious plant-based addition to any menu. It's available as a liquid scramble.
+
+[48:41] Great for omelets, frittadas, stir fries, and French toast. There's also a frozen pre baked folded version that's ideal for filling breakfast sandwiches or topping salads. Chef Jose Andres calls Just Egg mind blowing and bon appetit. Says, it's so good I feel guilty eating it. Put the fastest growing egg brand on your menu.
+
+[49:04] Get a free sample of Just Egg for your restaurant at J-U.S. Tslash H R N. So Aaron Morgan wrote in by the chat room. Hey, Dave, Hammer, John, and Matt. I grew up eating canned salmon.
+
+[49:14] This is regarding the canned salmon thing that we talked about. Who knows why the salmon is uh a weird shape, remember? And and we all said that we don't like the bones that are that are in canned fish. Remember this? Is this striking a chord?
+
+[49:30] Yes. Yeah, all right. I grew up eating canned salmon and learned to enjoy the gritty yet soft fish bones buried in the meat. My mom was born in 1962 with three siblings, and she used to tell us that they would regularly fight each other for the bones from the canned salmon. The most common way we would prepare them uh is uh to mix them with breadcrumbs and egg and cook them into little patties, or if you want to be fancy, croquettes.
+
+[49:56] And then P. S. When will you return to Roberta's? Thanks, Aaron. Well, you're gonna have to catch us at Rock Center.
+
+[50:01] Am I right, Stas? That is right. And uh Capri Sun wrote in and he had some Google thing about the cans. So, like why the cans are are tapered and uh something to do with packing, but I don't remember. All right.
+
+[50:17] Uh okay, uh Lippert wrote in uh via the balancing act email for the class I was doing with uh Jack Shram. I made base for lemon cello with grain alcohol and ended up with two and a half quarts of base. Added two cups of water, one cup of sugar, herbs, and about 45 grams of kinchona bark. That's the stuff that quinine's in. Sat for three weeks, strained it, now I have three quarts total base.
+
+[50:36] How much sugar syrup do I need to add so this is not poisonous? I know it needs water and sugar, but I'm freaked out uh because the kinchona can be uh poisonous. Thanks so much. Uh Sean Lippert. Now listen, uh, don't worry about it.
+
+[50:50] If it's if it's if it's not extraordinarily bitter, then you're gonna be fine, right? Because the actual component itself is bitter. So if it's not extraordinary, if it's it's if it's mildly bitter, you're fine. And by the way, adding sugar ain't gonna make it not poisonous. So you should taste it without the sugar and see what the don't mask it at all and see how bitter it is.
+
+[51:13] And that that should be your guide. The bitterness should be your guide. Um thanks to uh Anish Diora who wrote in with a video about Hamilton pocket watches, which goes back to my great-grandfather's uh Hamilton Railroad pocket wash. I appreciated uh that uh video. Um let me see.
+
+[51:32] From Chester's Daddy via Instagram. Hey, this is Matt in Brooklyn. Uh first time, long time. I watched yours, oh, earmuff, or like say whatever uh terrible thing you need to say on mute this time, Nastasia. I watched your Seltsa rig video on YouTube recently, and you talked about the proper you hear that?
+
+[51:48] The groan. About the proper PSI to get a certain type of carbonation. The punch article on carbonated cocktails touched on it too. Uh it inspired a question I hope you might uh have a bit of insight. Uh when talking about different seltzers, people often point out that the bubbles from, say, Perrier feel silky, while Canada Dry feel more sharp.
+
+[52:07] Is there anything at play here besides the amount of CO2 dissolved? Does carbonation method make a difference for the texture of seltzer or the mineral content? So method, not really. Uh except for any other dissolved gases in the in the drink will have an effect, right? So other dissolved gases will have effect, but the big difference is gonna be with the mineral content.
+
+[52:26] So the mineral content very drastically affects uh how you perceive um bubbles. Nikki J53 wrote in, hey, following up, uh, my question uh was about flour-based breadings. This is from a while ago. Like American-style fried chicken, not katsu or tempura type. I'm also specifically thinking about the same kind of uh frying on tofu.
+
+[52:44] I imagine the best binding agent would be to change, would change based on the protein you're frying. Thanks for answering. And this is to show how old this is. Happy 50th. So the question was the best binding agent for breading uh frying.
+
+[52:59] You're gonna want in in general, like like how well you there's two things that you need to worry about with frying, right? There is the coating itself, right? And so in the coating itself, things like egg are gonna help uh bind uh the coating itself together, right? And uh also uh leavening in it is gonna fluff it out and make it crispy because the those air cells will get uh will puff out, it'll fry up better and get crispy, right? Um but what I think you're worried about is adhesion, which is a separate kind of a problem, the binding to the to the product.
+
+[53:36] Now, you're gonna want to use a pre-dust for that. Now, some people have said that adding things that have protein to the pre-dust, which I haven't experimented with yet, things like powdered eggs or powdered milk to the pre-dust can increase uh adhesion. I almost always use straight flour for uh adhesion, right? So, like I will do flour, and then here's where people some people put into flour and then starch with liquid and then into a solid again, right? Into like a powder again.
+
+[54:06] Uh, some people will do a pre-dust and then just into uh a batter and then fry. Um I do I have a starchless wet, so what I do is I do uh egg and buttermilk, and then I do flour, and then egg, and I put the salt and pepper and all that into the you know and spices into the egg and buttermilk and leavening. So I use powder and soda. Uh most people don't use soda. Um I don't have time to talk about why, but I'll talk about it later.
+
+[54:32] Uh so I it you into the breading, then into the liquid, then back into not breading, into the flour, into the liquid, then back into the flour again, and then if that's not a thick enough coating, do it twice. The problem with tofu is tofu is so wet, right? So wet that you're gonna get some delamination because the tofu itself is gonna shrink drastically during the frying. So uh I think that's why most of the time people a lot when they're frying tofu, you'll get those traditional fried tofu skins, and the tofu itself forms its own fry layer on the outside. Wouldn't that what you would think, uh John?
+
+[55:06] Because any sort of breading you put on the outside of the tofu, I I don't see how you're not gonna get separation because the tofu is a big thing. Woo! That's good news. That's good news. Yeah.
+
+[55:18] Uh a hot dog's a sandwich wrote in. You're incorrect. Uh question for the show if it's not too late, but this is probably already too late. I have an abundance of fresh morels because my friends are great. Any suggestions on best use?
+
+[55:30] I'd like to do something with a little more pizzazz than just sauteing them. Well, I mean, morel's with a cream sauce is delicious. You don't need to just saute them. I mean, is there anything better than morels with a cream sauce? I mean, do you even like morel's rice sauce?
+
+[55:44] No. Really? Alright, John, you what about you? You like morels? I do, yes.
+
+[55:49] I told them or I replied to him on the Instagram message to that uh you should do mushroom conserve conservas with them. I had really good ones uh that Jeremy made down at the larder a couple years ago with morels, and it was super super tasty. In oil? Uh oil and vinegar, yeah. Yeah, you need the vinegar.
+
+[56:05] Now listen, people, be extremely careful with mushrooms. If you're going to keep them moist, right, be extremely careful. Um that is how people die from like that. Is the classic way to kill somebody is to improperly can a mushroom, right? So you either need to properly acidify a mushroom or you need to properly can a mushroom.
+
+[56:30] If you're putting a mushroom in oil and putting it in a bottle and not treating it properly, you will kill people. Like that is the one I'm gonna say straight up. You need to follow the rules, look up the rules, and then do it. Uh another uh cool thing uh with um I mean, obviously uh risotto with Morels is delicious. I mean it ain't porcinis because it's not, it's Morel's, but it's also any sort of rice-based dish with those morels is good, and they're also good on pizza, believe it or not.
+
+[57:00] You don't want to let them dry out too much. So, like I would do a pizza and like maybe like sorry, pre-saute them a little bit and then put them underneath the cheese so they're not drying out, but they're also delicious on pizza. Uh from Wowie Zaui via Twitter. I've always wondered what kind of stroke do you use on the DMT. We're talking about the DMT sharpening stones.
+
+[57:20] I looked them up on the internet. I use a um a 10-inch bench stone, fine, extra fine, the green red, and I love it. Uh, but the price has gone through the roof. I would still wait. Maybe the price will come back down.
+
+[57:32] I don't know whether the price of industrial diamonds has gone up or what. I have no idea. Uh, but they used to be like like 110 or something, 110, and now they're like 150 dollars, right? John, you and I were looking at them the other day. They've gone way up.
+
+[57:45] But you're really gonna, even if you don't have like super big knives, you're really gonna want that 10 inch uh stone. You really, really, really want the 10 inch stone. And uh I sharpen uh I sharpen so that like um well if you were sharpening away from yourself the spine of the knife is facing me and the blade is is is against the thing and going forward so I guess in your parlance that is edge leading edge leading right I don't drag it across I do edge leading however for the sharpest possible get yourself some very fine polishing compound and a leather strop and that you always do trailing and I haven't talked about I I uh I once bought at a flea market uh actually no it was a relative's huh now that I think about it um old leather like shaving strop like like wild west a barber strop and it's got like a click it's got a click hasp on it and you click it up high and you hold it taut and you go zoop zoop zip shoop shoop shoop zoop choop shoop and if you've never stropped uh a knife before I used to do it back when I was I was one of those idiots in like 1995 who decided they were gonna use a straight razor because for some reason that's more manly than using like a Gillette even though you know what's great like Mach 3s Mach 3 turbos like they're great you know what they don't do they don't rip your face into tiny shreds like if you I don't care how good you are right like my like m my facial hair is like real like uh what's the word I'm looking for stiff right so like I can't use like the electric like the Norelcos on my face because the neural like my hair is just like if you're Naroko so like like I couldn't use the straight razor, like no matter how long I did it, right? I would always I would always nick myself or get like razor burn or something. And I and then after a couple years, I was like, what am I, an idiot?
+
+[59:42] I'm sitting here sharpening this freaking straight razor. A couple years. Yeah, yeah. Stropping this straight razor. Like, I have a cup with a brush, and I have to get this like, first of all, Barbasol shaving cream is amazing product.
+
+[59:55] It's great. And it's cheap. You know what I mean? And it doesn't leave a soapy mess with a cup in your in your mirror, right? And so then, like, I was like, I think first I switched back to Barbasol, and then I was like, oh, Barbasol's great.
+
+[1:00:09] Maybe the Mach 3 is also great. And then I was like, and I've never cut myself shaving again. And I'm like, this is much smarter. This is just much smarter. Like technology works, but the strop is good.
+
+[1:00:21] Anyway. Ten minutes. Oh, I can easily do that. I only got two more questions. Oh my god.
+
+[1:00:30] Vaden, I think I answered this. Vaden Drobenan wrote in, hey Dave. Not to John's satisfaction. Oh, I have no. What's up?
+
+[1:00:39] Oh, it's just there's a big space because of the picture. I've been experimenting with milk punches lately, but hate adding acids to the milk to make it curdle. Do you know of any successful attempts at using rennet or something similar instead of uh to clarify cocktails? I I'm gonna answer exactly the same way. So, John, if this doesn't satisfy you, too bad.
+
+[1:00:55] I don't know. I think it will work. Test it and let us know. Alright? You got we got a really audible sound of John deleting that.
+
+[1:01:05] I like that. That was great. I did it. Yeah, thanks from uh sound design by Sean Newell. Right, click.
+
+[1:01:12] Uh I like that you have an old school keyboard. Jacob Schroeder wrote in via email, greetings. Dave recently and briefly mentioned Tonka beans. That's a good word, Tonka, right? Like the truck.
+
+[1:01:22] I think it's a good word. Yeah. Uh Tonka beans are a bean that was widely used in um vanilla substitutes way back in the day and were banned for use in the United States. Uh made a huge comeback maybe like 12 years ago in the high chef thing and then kind of left again because people started getting worried about it. And this is why.
+
+[1:01:44] I'm curious as to what their current standing is as far as whether they're safe to eat. If I remember right, you would need to consume a absurd amount of them to maybe end up with liver problems. I ask you, fine folks, because Dave has a pension for finding more information than what typical Google search will find. Thanks, uh love the show. Um to the point that most folks are probably annoyed because I bring up little factoids I learned from cooking issues in damn near every conversation I have.
+
+[1:02:08] Uh and then, which you know, I I I like bringing up I'm I'm a factoid guy, so I like a I like a factoid. And whoever invented the word factoid, that's a good word. Nastasia was. Or food. Nastasia is such a self-hater.
+
+[1:02:27] I can't stand it. It's like I really can't stand it. You got it all wrong. I enjoy eating a lot. I enjoy eating food.
+
+[1:02:36] I enjoyed it. You're in the wrong business. I just don't, yeah. You want to be an investment banker. Yeah, I think I hit a limit on like the like.
+
+[1:02:45] You are in the business of you are in the business of making products for people to cook with and therefore need to talk about them, and also here in the show in the business of talking to people about cooking things. I apologize for determining this. I should not have mentioned that. Keep going with the question. Alright.
+
+[1:03:06] Also, you guys like centrifuges, right? And then he posted a picture of a centrifuge that somebody designed in 1965 where you put a pregnant woman into it to spin her to help pop the baby out. And apparently this is real. Excuse me? Okay.
+
+[1:03:26] How dare it to help out, Stas? It's a woman. Who wants to place bets on whether a male or female person uh invented that? It doesn't say who invented it. In 1965, a machine was patented to deliver a baby using centrifugal force.
+
+[1:03:43] The machine would spin you, one, I mean, not me, uh, until the baby came out. It would then be caught in a net. And so there's a picture of this lady wearing a net and like what looks to be an oxygen mask with like some weird Frankenstein-y thing over her, like in a weird circular thing with a an arrow saying spin this way. Very odd. Very, very odd.
+
+[1:04:08] My guess, I don't I have I don't I'm not even gonna guess because I I don't know. Uh back to Tonka Beans, uh, Jacob. Uh this was in Ireland. It's a Dublin. It's photo courtesy of Dublin.science gallery.com.
+
+[1:04:20] So you can look it up there. Um so uh Tonka beans. So originally uh I was worried about Tonka beans, and uh everyone was because they contain Coomarin. So the Coomarin is the um, you know, it's a blood thinner, right? And so uh I was a little worried that you were giving somebody a uh a blood thinner uh you know in with their dessert.
+
+[1:04:44] Um but then I once gave uh a lecture to a bunch of flavor scientists, not a lecture, but a demo, to a bunch of flavor scientists, and um one of them was like, no, it also causes cancer. So I didn't look it up, but I was like, you know what? F it. So I haven't used it since then, but I also haven't uh really uh researched it yet. So beyond that, I just stopped using it um at that point.
+
+[1:05:10] Um I in fact have many more questions, but oh I'll do one more quick one because this person's gonna do this without me, and I and I don't uh I don't wanna uh Alex Alex uh McLeod wrote in or McLeod, McLeod, McLeod, McLeod, uh via email, uh dear Dave, Nastasia, John, and Matt, the inner door of my oven has cracked. It's an old domestic kitchen aid, and I'm planning to replace the part. In so doing, I will have to disassemble the oven door. This got me wondering, would there be any harm in adding additional insulation when I do? I bake a lot of bread and pizza, and domestic ovens seem designed as much to heat your home as to cook food, given the amount of heat they leak.
+
+[1:05:50] I would prefer to waste as little energy as possible when I bake, although I realize it is by nature a wasteful endeavor. There's a lot of research on this, by the way, um, making ovens more efficient. Uh I have limited handyman skills, but I'm willing to try. By the way, Nastasia had a long conversation uh with we had a conversation, like there's gotta be some sort of gender neutral for handyman. What was the other one?
+
+[1:06:12] Uh man with a van. Man with a van, and wasn't there one more or no? Were those the two main ones? Doorman, doorman. Doorman.
+
+[1:06:19] So like Nastasi was like, Can't you just call a man with a van a mover? And I'm like, no, mover implies that they're licensed and that they're not gonna come back when you're gone and steal your stuff. Whereas man with a van implies that they have no license and that they might come back and steal the stuff that they just moved. So it needs to have. And so then she's like, Well, if you're insulting them anyway, do you have to worry about the the gender neutral part of it?
+
+[1:06:43] And I was like, I don't know. I think you still do. I don't know. Because one is impugning, like, you know, I don't know. You just say person with a man, I guess.
+
+[1:06:52] It does rhyme though. Like, you know? Well, man with a man, then. Well, is there something like if it happens to be a woman, is there any sort of rhyming thing for a vehicle that moves a bunch of stuff around? Then?
+
+[1:07:06] How about sh is schmuck is also mainly a guy, right? Schmuck with a truck? Would you assume that the sh solid effort, but it does not solve the problem. In fact, well, no, it just does not solve the problem. Hey, who are you hiring?
+
+[1:07:19] Hey, schmuck with a truck, right? No? Yeah. If you're hiring schmuck with a truck. Anyway.
+
+[1:07:29] Back to Alex's uh question. Um I would look the the your oven door is only X, you know, thick, right? So don't mistake adding more layers of insulation to having more effective insulation, right? The most effective insulation is actually a vacuum. Uh the next thing that you're gonna do is would be pure, you know, pure still air is actually quite good.
+
+[1:07:58] So the insulation that's in there is uh mainly preventing um is mainly preventing uh uh air from moving around, right? Uh what I would worry about, or what you one of the things you can do if you don't want the front of your oven to get hot is make sure that the surfaces in the oven are very high, uh very low emissivity, very shiny, right? So if they reflect most of their heat, then uh they won't uh then they won't transmit heat as well. So if the inside surface of your oven is shiny, right, and not oxidized. So like if you take your oven door apart, if if let's say the the side that's next to the oven is black, right?
+
+[1:08:41] Fine, whatever, that's gonna radiate towards the oven. If the side that's facing the inside of your door is shiny, right, that's gonna help cut down on heat. Then a layer that prevents uh heat transfer through it, usually just by stopping the air from moving and convecting around, that's good. And then if that next surface, the one that faces out into your kitchen is shiny on both sides, that will uh decrease the amount of heat radiated out and will also uh decrease the decrease the amount of uh energy that's radiated in. If you have a door with glass, uh I like glass, but a lot of your heat leaks through the glass, and there's not a lot you can do for that.
+
+[1:09:18] Uh I mean you could add another layer of insulating glass, I guess, but a lot of the energy is dumped out of the glass in the front of the oven. But I have to say I like being able to see into an oven. Do you guys like being able to see into an oven? Yeah. Yeah.
+
+[1:09:31] I think it's worth being able to see into an oven. Uh all right. So we'll get on to uh next time, which we don't know whether next time is gonna be next week. We don't know whether it's gonna be on the 11th with Pierre Cham. Get your Pierre questions in.
+
+[1:09:43] Uh we'll answer the Smash Burger questions and cocktails, and there's another carbonation question that I uh what's it called? Spared nostasia from for now. Um anything else? Well, we're live now. You can go on eBay, search Searsol.
+
+[1:09:58] Don't buy the 200 Searsol from the person who's trying to rip you off. What are we selling enforcement? The way you know it's real is that in it says official booker Index sears All, and the description is this is the official booker Index Sears all. All other web pages are knockoffs. It'll be also it'll be in the show, the seller information is trailing edge 45.
+
+[1:10:21] Trailing edge 45 because we couldn't even get trailing edge technologies as a what's 45? What is that even? I don't know. Trailing edge one through 44 were taken. Boris Lopez, who is 45 years old and he works.
+
+[1:10:37] Forest Lopez, like Forrest Girls. Oh, Loris. Boris! Loris. Well, what's what where did Loris come from?
+
+[1:10:45] B is Boris. He is a boy. He is a boy. Does Boris take after the like Russian Ukrainian side? Can I do like a Boris Badnov for this guy or not?
+
+[1:10:56] Boris Lopez is looks like one of our listeners to me. Okay. He's 45 years old. And he works for trailing edge technologies. Alright.
+
+[1:11:08] And remember, if Boris falls off that plane, we still have the pilot. You're gonna land okay. Yeah. He's not that important. And if we fall over, if we fall off, the plane's still gonna land.
+
+[1:11:23] Don't worry. The plane's still gonna land. I want to say one more thing. You know what happened this morning? I was on the phone with Dave.
+
+[1:11:29] We were talking about whatever. Whenever we talk, we talked for two hours about nothing related to our business. And I dropped like a coffee cup or something, and then also the phone cut out. And then I couldn't get back in touch with him, and Dave couldn't get back in touch with me. And we finally did, and he was like, Oh man, I thought you died.
+
+[1:11:49] And then I thought about how that would have to be part of the updates on the radio show today. That's not what I said. You just made that up. No, you just made that up. You just made that up.
+
+[1:12:01] John, does that sound like it? Yeah. Sorry. I have no, I'm not denying that that's something that I might say. I'm just denying I don't remember saying that.
+
+[1:12:12] Wow, okay. You're getting old. And I'm getting old. I'd I've done got old. I am, you know, whatever.
+
+[1:12:20] You know. 15 more years, and I could theoretically, I guess, retire. I don't even know what that means. What does retiring mean? Anyways.
+
+[1:12:27] Trailing edge and cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, subscribe to our newsletter.
+
+[1:12:44] Enter your email at the bottom of our website, Heritage Radio Network.org. Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can also find us at Facebook.com slash heritage radio network. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[1:13:07] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Subscribe to the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join the HRN family by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you
+
+[0:13] did. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. You're listening to Heritage radio network. This is Dave Arnold with cooking issues, a show where you call in and talk to us about your cooking issues. Uh, every Tuesday from uh, 12 to 1245. Today's show is brought to you by the Barterhouse. The Barter House is a proud supporter of the Heritage Radio Network. The barterhouse works with family vineyards and small bottlers from around the world to bring only the finest and most flavorful wines to the market.
+
+[0:58] To learn more about barter hearts barter house. Please visit them at www,thebarterhouse.com, or call them at 917-463-3076.
+
+[1:09] I've actually never had the barter house. We're here with Nastasia Lopez from Cooking Issues.com and AJE, one of our one of the people who was our interns. He now graduated. So you guys ever had this wine before? No. No? No. No. All right. So we're just going to open it on air and try it. While I'm doing that. I was like, there you go. We're going to drink this. It's kind of warm, it's a white wine here. It's a Chardonnay from New Zealand. and we're gonna, it's kind of warm. We're going to drink a Cze Chef Cesare Casella style, which means with ice. So I'm going to pour this out here. And while we're trying this wine to tell you how delicious it is,
+
+[1:45] I'm going to tell you the call in number to call in and ask us any kind of question you want. 718-497-2128. And so if you have any cooking issues, uh, please call and we'll try to uh, fix them or at least talk about them. Now, just to give you a little background, what we do is we're at the French Culinary Institute, which is a cooking school in downtown New York, and I run the technology department, which means
+
+[2:13] any kind of new technique or ingredient, we deal typically with chefs, but basically anything kind of new or off the
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+[2:20] wall or kind of weird or any sort of strange problems, we deal with those. And we solve them for various chefs who work with a lot of great chefs around the city. So, you know, if you have any questions about sous vide cooking or low temperature cooking, which is, you know, kind of a new style of cooking that's making a lot of waves in restaurants right now, or any kind of new, new
+
+[2:40] eggs thickener, new ingredient. Or if you want to rant because you hate these things and want to engage me in an argument on the air. We appreciate that. I love rants. I especially love ignorant people who don't know what they're talking about, calling and saying things about how I use a bunch of chemicals. So if you want to do that, I encourage you to call up and we'll have this discussion on air. And with a lot less profanity than you would if you came to my lab and had this conversation. But anyway, so let's 1st things first, let's try out this delicious, this delicious wine. Uh, we're drinking uh, Kerner Estate uh, 2008 uh, Chardonnay uh, from New Zealand. Hold on. What do you think, guys? Yeah? Yeah. It feels old school, like a working lunch, having wine at lunch. People don't do that anymore. You know, when you visit Europe, they still have wine at lunch, and then we like Americans drink wine like we do at dinner when we're at the lunch, and then we're blasted for the rest of the afternoon. Unless actually what happens is in Europe, nothing gets done after lunch, which is, I think, actually the more accurate thing. I think nothing in Europe happens after lunch. But it's kind of pleasant, right? We're sitting here in Brooklyn in the studio. And uh, anyways. While we're waiting for someone to actually pick up the phone and call. Oh, and if you call and it gets really, it gets problematic. Like, you know, there's yelling and stuff. Nastasia is the hammer, just as she is on our website, www.cookingissues.com, where when things get out of hand, Nastasia, who brings
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+[4:04] her her fantastic mix of Russian and Spanish brings the hammer down on people.
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+[4:10] Uh, she loves doing that. So please call and get out of hand. We really appreciate it. Nastasia hasn't been able to crush someone recently. She's looking forward to it. So anyway, so what do you think? What do you guys want to talk about before we get any colors here? you want to. Maybe you should talk about your road app, your new road app. Yeah, I saw the post go up last night. Oh, yeah, okay. So here's the deal. For those of you who don't know what a road of app is, which I'm guessing 99.99% of you, what it is, is it's a piece of distillation equipment, which allows us to do distillations to make booze, basically, illegally, because you can't distill here in the US, you know, without a distiller's license, it's
+
+[4:52] huge pain in the butt, but it allows us to do distillations at a very low temperature. And what's great about that is the flavors are the purest cleanest flavors that you could possibly imagine. Am I right? You guys drink it, drink it all the time. I mean, it's not it's not something that we can get flavors. I mean, commercial beverages are delicious, but it's just we get different kinds of flavors in the road of
+
+[5:13] app, and they're kind of hard to commercialize because a lot of times they don't last very long or they're difficult to
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+[5:17] produce or they would be expensive. Anyway, we've been using this equipment, of course, like anything else is super expensive. It's many, many 1000s of dollars. And, uh, you know, I'd used, um, kind of a beat up old version that was older than most of my students. In fact, we got off eBay for, you know, I got a few bays, I should say, for almost nothing and kind of crowded together and got it to work really well. Well, the corporation that makes them, Bukey, the 1st name in rotary evaporation. Buki, no, Buki came to visit us and they make the kind of the butt kicking ones and they, because we were going to go on this show, the Jimmy Fallon show, and I told
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+[5:54] them I didn't want to, I didn't want to have one of their crappy ones from the, you know, early 80s being the one that everyone saw. And so they brought a really nice new rotary evaporator and they let us keep it, which is fantastic. And so the guy is sitting next to me, AJ, who spent many, many hours flying our old, you know, kind of beat up
+
+[6:11] Roto app, is quite jealous because he's no longer working with us at the school and now it's so much easier to do all of our work, right?
+
+[6:17] true. Yeah, yeah. What are the advantages of vertevapping? Well, all right. Well, the disadvantages are it's illegal, right? So the, you know, the reason why you don't see it in a lot of restaurants here is because the chefs are confined to using
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+[6:33] it, making non-alcoholic drinks. If they make an alcoholic drink and try and serve it in their restaurant or their bar, they're endangering their liquor license. So consequently, they don't do it. And the stuff that's done with water just isn't as exciting enough, especially if they've ever done liquor. It's just not exciting enough to warrant, you know, an $18,000 or, you know,
+
+[6:51] depends on, could you could get one for 5 grand, but all that money, space, and training just to do
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+[6:56] to water-based things. So that's why you don't see it a lot here in the states, although there are a couple restaurants in Chicago that use them. But it allows you to separate flavors in a way that, you know, you've never done before. So we do, you know, as you guys both know, because I forced you to do it many times, we'll do a chocolate liquor that has, you know, just cocoa, you know, the flavor of chocolate with none of the
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+[7:17] bitterness because the bitterness doesn't distill, just a Roman flavor does. So you have this like chocolate chocolate booze with no sugar in it. That's, you know, delicious or we'll do, you know, very spicy peppers, habanero peppers that have no spice in
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+[7:29] them. They're just, you know, the floral amazing floral aroma. Uh, you know, this kind of stuff or fresh herbs are kind of my favorite because they're just impossible to redo any other way.
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+[7:39] So, you know, something like, although Nastasia doesn't like it, you know, cilantro. For the, by the way, Nastasia, who's here, I assume she's going to chime in at some point with some of her likes and dislikes, which are the most preposterous dislikes.
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+[7:52] You know, she, it turns out, this lady who's in the food business now works with me, who likes, who likes everything. I basically like everything in the world with the exception of Nato, which is, you know, disgusting. Japanese fermented soybean product, Nato, which is, yeah, I don't think even in Japan, they like it. I think they just pretend that they like it because it's supposed to be good for you, but Nastasia hates every damn thing. You're like, oh, I like I like delicious thing. She's like, no, I don't like that. I hate that. Whatever it is. Like it's delicious. I hate it. So speaking of, oh, nastasia pounded that wine. Jeez. I poured everyone a full glass, right? been talking for like 10 minutes. I got a half poor. If you did not get a half pour. Come on now. Yeah, she obliterated that wine. Just, you know, mutilated. Anyway, so it's good though. Yeah. Well, apparently you think it's good. You drank the whole damn glass. Uh, here, here, AJ, pour, of course. Pour some more. Anyway. So, the so while I'm waiting for someone to call in, I will now talk
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+[8:53] about, because, you know, nothing better to do. I'll talk about some of my my pet peeves. So, uh, related to cooking by my pet piece. So, like, one thing I hate. And if, you know, I've been on this network a couple of times on other shows and I always get to say how much I hate the word molecular gastronomy. Well, here's my opportunity to say it right now and however long and however angry I want to say, do not use the term molecular gastronomy. You know, if any of you out there have heard the term before molecular gastronomy, you do the best to erase this term from your memory. It's an awful term. I'll give you some reasons why. Uh, one, it's meaningless. It has no meaning. What does it mean, molecular gastronomy? First of all, gastronomy is the worst word. It sounds good in French, you know, gastronomy, but it sounds like gas and
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+[9:43] propronomy, gastronomy. sounds like gastropod. Sounds like you have gas, sounds like you're going to get gas. If you eat it, gas, molecular sounds disgusting, it doesn't sound delicious. So I don't, you know, I don't really see the point in tagging something you're going to eat with a term that sounds inherently inherently disgusting. And remember, this term is pioneered by this guy in France named
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+[10:04] Erve Tis. Herve Atis, who, as I said, you know, I was on the, you know, a show here last week. I said, you know, I won't say anything negative about him, except for he's a charlatan and what, you know, and a farce. And so the, the, the thing is, is that he thinks molecular gastronomy sounds good because he doesn't really speak English that well, right?
+
+[10:25] He thinks in English, the word food sounds gross, right? Right? And seriously, he's like, food, sounds disgusting. Food, maybe for a Frenchie, but, you know, I like food. Do you like food? Food delicious. Yeah. Anyway, so, uh, so it's it's a term that has no meaning. It sounds disgusting. Uh, it's basically a marketing term for this guy in France, Air Vetis. None of the chefs who are being described as doing molecular astronomy want to be described as doing molecular astronomy. And it puts you in a pigeonhole that I think is wrong. First of all, either all of us are manipulating molecules, in which case a guy cooking over
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+[10:59] campfires, doing molecular gastronomy, or none of us are manipulating, you know, molecules. I don't know anyone with a, like a scanning tunneling microscope who's sitting there, like adjusting individual molecules in the pie that they're making. know at least one. So, but you know, you get my point. It's kind of, it's, it's pointless. And it's also, I think, what most people don't realize is that these new technologies are being used in restaurants all the time.
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+[11:23] It's just they don't know it because because, you know, they're not doing the kind of food that is labeled as molecular gastronomy.
+
+[11:29] So, you know, people, people assume that if you're using new technologies for cooking, that you're actually, you know, making crazy food, making things that are wacky, making, you know,
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+[11:38] think, and we do do that too, just because, you know, we, I mean, we do, but, you know, a lot of the best applications of these things, you would never know
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+[11:46] that a technology was used to do it. So we serve you a delicious drink that's, you know, strawberry flavored, and it's crystal clear, and it's got, you know, amazing effervescence, and liquor tastes, you know, super fresh, unlike anything you've ever had before. And you're not thinking, hey, hey, this, you know, these people used, you know, $30,000 worth of
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+[12:08] equipment and spent like 5 hours and did like all these new techniques. You're like, this is a delicious drink. And I think those are the applications that are, that are best, right? I mean, you don't necessarily want to know. So I tend not to do things like spray foams all into everything, which I think everyone's like, oh, you do foams and foams. But anyway, I think that's kind of the, you know, it being able to make a good foam is kind of, you know, it's an important, you know,
+
+[12:32] skill to have, but it's not, you know, I very rarely do it, you know, only when it's kind of when it's called for.
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+[12:38] And, you know, films are nothing, nothing new either, right? I mean, foams take, for instance, the head on a beer. That's pretty old foam. I think what people are doing is just trying to take the weirdest thing that they can find and turn
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+[12:50] into a foam and then gestronic. Yeah, right. Yeah, no, but I think that's right. and that's the other problem is some people who actually kind of like the term. I mean, the danger of this with, as with any technique is that someone will take the techniques and just do something just to do it, and
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+[13:08] stuff doesn't taste very good, but then everyone who uses the techniques gets painted with
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+[13:12] those, with that brush. I think that, you know, that's the main problem. So you don't want... They need the marriage of technique and flavor. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like saying, you're only supposed to use these techniques to try and make flavors better or to try and achieve some sort of effect that you like. If you're, you know, if you're, if you're using it just to use it, then that's that's not a good, that's not a good application. Like if I handed someone a frying pan, you know, they could make really crappy food with that frying
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+[13:38] pan. You know, if I hand someone a centrifuge, they can make really crappy food with that centrifuge,
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+[13:43] centrifuge, something that separates things based on their density. Uh, you know, it's, they're just tools. And so the, the, the, the trick is, is to, is to be open to using these new tools, but at the same time to use your head and say, why do I want to use these new tools and only use them when they actually make the food
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+[13:58] better? Not when they're just a silly gimmick. Although, again, occasionally we will fall into the silly game, just because, you know, it's my job. But we try not to. All right. So pretty soon we're going to be going out on our 1st break. So in advance of that. Let's have a cheers to the Barter House, a proud supporter of Heritage Radio Network. Don't forget to call in with your questions at 718-497-2128 to ask us anything you want about new cooking techniques, old cooking techniques,
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+[14:29] anything you want. You were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Yeah. Yeah. When the body gets off my back, the big time. And you need to know some fascination. What's that? What's that? When your body
+
+[14:52] won't know, but you're going to do? And you don't
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+[14:56] do it, but you know what you do? What's that? But that, body heat. When you can't get nobody, please. You need some love, you just an ease. What's that? What's that party?
+
+[15:29] Ah Gotta go to touch on. Gotta go to cha-cha Gotta go the jet dog. Gotta go to chat zone. And you've got... Take off that break, yeah. Take off that break day. Take off that Friday. Take off that bread, yeah. Give me some air Welcome back. You're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network to Colin and ask us a question. Call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So before we left, we were talking about the fact that new techniques and technologies in the kitchen are used for a variety of
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+[16:29] reasons and some of the best applications of them are actually ones where you wouldn't necessarily know anything is going on. I think one of the, you know, best things, uh, best, you know, uh, examples of that is is French fries. We did many, many tests. How many do we do? A lot, but... No, no, that was 20 on that one day. We've done... on that 2nd day. We've done like probably 60, 60 and change, which is not a lot for, you know, for a commercial, you know, place like
+
+[16:56] McDonald's, who does, you know, 1000s of tests, but, you know, 60, 70 tests, making my interns do French fries over and over again is kind of a pain in the butt. But what it's about, is it shows a mindset. The problem is, French fries are problematic, right? Here's why. You want French fries to be, uh, one, you want the outside to be crispy and crunchy, right? You also want it to be not, it doesn't matter how much oil is actually in
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+[17:20] it. You just don't want it to taste greasy, right? So you want something that's crunchy, not greasy. You want the potato to actually taste like a potato, potato flavor and have an actual potato texture that's nice on the inside. Not, you know, not overcooked, not undercooked, not hollow. You want also the French fry to stay good when it's cold. I repeatedly said, a monkey. can make a French fry that's good when it's hot. Same thing as a donut, a donut is a difficult problem. Any idiot can make a donut that's hot that tastes good because it's delicious when it's hot. The challenge is to make a fried food, donuts or french fries, whatever, that is good when it is cold. It's especially true with donuts because they're supposed to keep. But French fries. Our task was, I want the texture on the outside and the texture on the inside to be good right out of the fryer and to stay delicious, even when that
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+[18:06] thing is cold. And so, uh, you know, many of you out there who make French fries are familiar with the uh, with a double frying technique, which is, uh, you know, it's attributed to the uh, to the Belgians, right? It's a double fry technique where you fry once to form the crust and to cook it, and then you fry it a 2nd time to make it crispy again. This is kind of, you know, that's like kindergarten French fry, as far as we're concerned. you know, that's like, that's like, you know, not necessarily the, you know, the best way to do it, the best way to do
+
+[18:34] it, is to do an initial blanching step where you kill the enzymes and cook the potatoes in a blanching step in water, salted water, which also flavors the potato, right?
+
+[18:43] And then typically, the old ways, we would then dehydrate them a little bit, which allows for the crust to get more,
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+[18:49] it gets rid of some of the water, which means that it stays crunchier longer. Then fry it once and then fry it twice again. So it's, you know, several step process. But these make delicious fries. But the problem is with the drying step and with the blanching, a lot of times we would get hollow
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+[19:02] fries or they wouldn't be consistent. So we tried to figure out the absolute best, best, best way to do it. And, you know, how long do you blanch it? You know, Heston Blumenthal, the famous chef in England says you should blanch for a long time till they break apart. So we ran all these tests. If you go to cooking issues.com, you can see what we ended up with. We ended up soaking the fries in an enzyme, a natural enzyme, not some sort of GMO nonsense, but an enzyme called
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+[19:25] Pectinex SPL that you can also get from cookingissues.com. And what it does is it breaks down the pectin on the outside of the french fries and allows for the starch on the outside of the fry to swell it very quickly and form a really nice crust. It also means you don't really have to dry the fries after you blanch it. So you soak it in this enzyme for a couple hours. Blanch it in boiling salted water to make it taste delicious and get cooked. And 3 times fry after that. And you have, arguably, the most delicious French fries that I've ever had. What do you guys think about those fries? They're delicious. I don't even like fries. Yeah. Okay. So it looks like we have a collar, right? We have a call. All right. Hello? Hi, how are you? All right. I'm good. I was wondering what the benefits are of chilling a drink over dry ice. Ah, okay. So this is an excellent question. Who am I speaking to? This is Carolyn. from Massachusetts. Massachusetts. All right. Well, 1st of all, here's the things about dry ice. Dry ice, for those of you not in the know is solid carbon dioxide, right? It's a lot easier to obtain, a lot easier to store than liquid nitrogen, which is actually our preferred chilling method for
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+[20:30] drinks and for many things. Hard to carry over a bridge. Very hard to carry over a bridge. I done it. So the dry ice you can get usually from an ice supply house or sometimes from welding supply shops. And when you chill a drink with dry ice, right? There's a couple problems. You don't want to serve someone little chips of dry ice because that's bad. It's cold, it can burn your tongue. It's not very good. So one of the pitfalls is that you don't want little pieces of dry ice. Now, a friend of mine, Tony Nugliaro, in at Bar 69 Cobra Grow, was making daiquiri is where he put chunks of dry ice in a blender with a daiquiri mix and blended
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+[21:07] them. And I have to say, he got them to come out quite well, although the technique makes me a little bit nervous.
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+[21:12] The other thing about it, though, is if you let it chill long enough, the drink is going to become slightly carbonated. So I wouldn't chill a drink with dry ice that you didn't want to have a little bit of bubbles in it because it's
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+[21:24] going to get a little bit of bubbles in it when you have dry ice, but here's a really good technique for dry ice. Oh, and one of the prime advantages, obviously, is you make the drink, you get the dilution exactly the way you want
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+[21:33] it with water for a pre-batch drink at a party, let's say, right? And then now the dilution is perfect. Now your only job is to get it cold. Now you can do that in the freezer, by putting it in the freezer. But if you put it in the freezer, then it's hard to have it out and it's going to turn to crap while it's sitting on your counter because your guests are morons and they don't drink fast enough, right? Right? And so it's sitting there on the counter getting warm and you're sitting there and
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+[21:54] you're pinching yourself and, you know, kicking yourself and almost because you know the drink's getting too damn warm and there's not anything you can do about it, right? And that's kind of a torture, right? Am I right? Like the party I went to last week. Yeah. Oh, awful. Yeah, right? And the drink is sitting there dying. Dying on the counter because it's getting warm and there's not a damn thing you can do about it unless you have dry
+
+[22:12] eyes. Now, you throw a chunk or 2 of dry ice in there. Don go overboard. You don't want to freeze a drink, right? And then it's just going to sit at the bottom of a pitcher. Don't use something too wide. Like, you know, when you were kids, you got the sherbet in the dry ice, right? That's a little bit too wide. You want to get kind of a narrow pitcher. Just throw like, you know, a couple of rocks of dry ice in there. It lasts a long time. Dry ice is actually has a lot more cooling capacity than ice does, whereas liquid nitrogen actually doesn't. It's a lot colder, but liquid nitrogen's cooling capacity is somewhat similar to eyes, dry eyes can chill for a long time. Throw a couple rocks of that in there. Give it a stir. After about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, that drink is going to be lightly carbonated and it's going to stay cold the whole damn night. And then if you have a problem, like you're running out of dry ice, just crack off another little piece of dry ice and throw it
+
+[22:54] in plus, you know, it's got the good show with the mist, people like the show. Yeah, it's easily accessible. It's really good technique, especially in summertime. You could have an ice cold, delicious drink. even very traditional drinks, right? Like gin and tonics, for anyone who knows me knows that I have a lot of gripes with gin tonics, right? because they're usually either they're under carbonated or they're not boozy enough. And it's supposed to be a summertime drink. They always turn to crap. Always turn to crap, right? Yeah, you have to drink them very quickly. Yeah, so even if you want to go completely traditional. You don't want to do anything. Go buy your bottled tonic water, buy your gin, get some lime, mix it up in a pitcher, right? A pitcher of gin and tonics. Put it, go out on your picnic bench or whatever, right? You know, throw a couple rocks of dry ice in there. That thing will stay carbonated and cold, and everyone can get shellacked on delicious summertime, gin and tonics, without having to worry about, you know, that last flat, nasty, warm sip of crap that
+
+[23:50] they think they like it because the tastes are delicious, but they're just always executed poorly.
+
+[23:54] Does that make sense? Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, what's your favorite kind of gym? Oh, now that's a question. It's like asking me to choose which one of my children I love though. I'm kidding. Different gins are good for, for, for different purposes and there, you know, my kind of, uh, you know, uh, I like Hendrix or some applications. Um, you know, it's kind it kind of, you know, it's it's pricey. I think... Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah, I, you know, a lot of times for mixing, my hand instinctively reaches for
+
+[24:22] Tankeray. I don't know whether that's because, I don't know, just because, I don't know, just because it's nice high proof. It's easy to mix with. I, but I know bartenders that are partial to, you know, any, any and every kind of, kind of gym. My dad was an old, old school Bombay. He wasn't a sapphire guy. He was a, you know, white label Bombay guy. And that's actually where I got my love of tonic water and highly carbonated
+
+[24:45] beverages was from sitting next to my dad. Well, he would, yeah, he would make a gin and tonic and I would have just a lineman tonic. So you know, start me early. You got to start your kids early. Give him tonic water early. Get them started out. Boxley is also good. Yeah. What is AJ just messing with me. I have nothing. I like Oxley. I like Oxley. Oxley's fine. yeah It's it's different. It's a different. I think it's a traditional gin taste, but, um, a lot of people I know like beef eater. I mean, like, there's a lot of it's personal preference. I recommend going and tasting a lot of gins. If you, if you have friends that don't like gin, then a good, a good gateway gin is Plymouth because it's light on a lot
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+[25:23] of, a lot, a lot of the botanical flavors, especially the juniper that people find objectionable in gin. And so you can you can kind of start them out with that. So that's why we call it the, you know, the gateway gin. And it's available. Great. Well, thank you so much. No problem. No problem. Thanks for calling. Our 1st official call. That's awesome Yeah. And I think we were able to help. See? Anyone out there who's listening, just know. Wait, but how much is dry ice? Uh, it depends. I think that here in New York, it's a little more expensive. You actually had to buy it last time. How much was it? I didn't buy it. They ordered it. Yeah, it's on the order of a couple dollars a pound and you have to buy, I think,
+
+[26:01] like, uh, £20 or something like that. So you're looking at like a $40 or something investment, but it's a small price to pay for a delicious beverage.
+
+[26:12] It comes wrapped, you know, at a party. I wouldn't say to keep it around all the time, but because, you know, you can't store it in your fridge. It sublim- I mean, if you can. It sublimates. And so you lose it over time. There's no way to store it for long periods of time at your house, but you show up with just like a, you know, like a disposable Styrofoam
+
+[26:28] cooler or cooler, you put it in, it'll last for hours and hours and hours. In fact, it'll last for, you know, a day or more depending on how well you store it. And, um, you know, it's it's pretty easy and I think especially applicable to, you know, summertime parties. What about the handling of dry ice? Well, okay, so dry ice. 1st thing you should not do is the 1st thing that many, many people do, which is take a chunk of dry ice, put it in water, seal it in a soda
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+[26:53] bottle, and throw it and watch it explode. This is not considered a safe practice. In fact, the problem is when CO2, you know, dry ice, it will, it will, if sealed, it'll do one of 2 things. It will turn to a gas and it will slowly increase in pressure up to about 800 PSI or
+
+[27:11] more or explode, whichever comes first. Usually explosion comes first. So, uh, it's not a good idea to steal large corners, although, uh, never mind. It's not a good idea. It's not a good idea to do that. Another thing is it's very easy to get Burns, Cold Burns from handling it for too long. So, you know, while it's fun to sit there and play hot potato with dry ice,
+
+[27:33] you know, I would use gloves when I handle it. It's a lot safer that way than liquid nitrogen is in terms of, you know, liquid nitrogen. There is always a danger that it's going to get underneath a glove and really damage you, whereas dry ice is not such
+
+[27:46] a problem. And also, if you're going to chip it, I would wear glasses, safety glasses because you don't want little pieces of dry ice. It's very hard and you don't want little pieces flying off and hitting you in the eye. I don't want that. Yeah. Yeah, it is awkward. I'm blind and frozen. Yeah. Yeah, it's not such a good idea. And, you know, it would be a bad idea to move into a living room and chill it with dry
+
+[28:06] ice because your house will fill with CO2. Okay. So, uh, we're coming up on our 2nd commercial break. If you want to call in with problems, dry ice related or not, technical or not, for instance, let's say you want to talk about fish sauce. I love talking about fish sauce. Uh, our number here at Cooking Issues, uh, Heritage Radio is
+
+[28:27] 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128, and you are listening to the Heritage Radio Network cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. We gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[29:26] All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Gotta take you home.
+
+[29:37] Bam! Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. Now, James, hold on, man. You were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. This is Dave Arnold, and we are taking calls and fixing people's cooking issues. So who do we have? Who we have coming up here? We have a call coming in? Hmm? We have a call. Yeah. Hello? Dave? Yeah? Thank you. I really am excited to, uh, have you, uh, you know, at least live via this method. Well, hopefully we can help out. Who am I speaking with? John. Hey, John, how you doing? So what do you want to talk about? Well, the 2 best things I bought for my kitchen this year. One was a cook tech. Uh, uh, uh, uh, I bought a cook jacket. Induction
+
+[30:43] union again? The induction unit, just terrific. But the other thing I bought was a mini pack Torre. Which one? The MVS 31. Okay. Let me tell our users for a quick second. So we're talking about an induction induction unit, which is basically, it's the most kind of, it's the most efficient way, really, to cook. It uses electricity, but instead of having a conductively heat, like make a lot of heat in your kitchen. It literally heats the pan by using an oscillating, oscillating magnetic electric magnetic field. And it's fantastic way to cook. It's not as popular here as it is in Europe because our electricity is more expensive than our
+
+[31:18] gas and because our chefs aren't used to it. The other piece of equipment we're talking about is a vacuum packing machine made by mini
+
+[31:24] pack, and this particular one he's discussing, the MVS 31 is a really great size for the house. And it lets you do a lot of really fun things. really professional piece of commitment. Sorry, go ahead. And one of the great things about it. I mean, aside from trying to do sous vide or something like that is the fact that, you know, just leftovers. Oh, yeah, you, you know, it, it extends life of foods, you know, they don't oxidize, you can keep them for days longer than one would normally keep things in the
+
+[31:54] refrigerator, and, you know, like if you go to a place like Costco that's selling huge packs of meat, you can repackage meat into
+
+[32:01] uh, uh, usable sizes. Uh, but that comes down. I know on the, uh, on your, uh, your website you're going to start uh, doing a, uh, section on on vacuum sealing and vacuum packing. Yeah, we haven't done it yet just because I've been, I've been busy, but it is the next, in, in this, in the low temp sous vide primer list, the vacuum packing is the next, one, yeah. Right. And I guess my question to you is, how
+
+[32:27] much, how much are you extract, how much are you extract when you do it? You can go up to like, I guess, like 98% or something like that. And I always try and get as much error and and uh, uh, the, the highest vacuum amount when I'm, I'm sealing things. And I know you've got a, it can vary and you can, you can seal them from like, you know, 0 to 100, but
+
+[32:52] I, I was just curious, what are your recommendations? Okay, so here's the base, the basics of it. And you can, if you go on www.cookingissues.com and search for, I don't know what to search
+
+[33:03] for. Actually, Nastasia will look up like on the back thing. We do a thing on how the texture of meat is affected by vacuum. So, you know, how much vacuum you apply really depends on what you're trying to do. So if you're trying to do texture modification, then you want to apply the heaviest vacuum possible because you want to get all the air out of your product before you do it. If you're vacuuming to put something in the fridge or freezer, then you want a heavy, heavy vacuum because you want to get all the oxygen out because that's going to be one of the prime reasons that things go bad, especially on leftovers,
+
+[33:34] right? Warmed over flavor and meat. You know, you can really prevent it by putting a good hard vacuum on. Of course, your product has to be really, really cold before you vacuum it. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to put a good seal on it. Now, if you're going to cook. The problem is, is that on red meat, it's not as much of a big deal, but on fish and on poultry. If you put a very hard vacuum on a product, I find it tends to change the texture of the meat when it's
+
+[34:01] cooked when. And so the effect is, uh, for those of you that never vacuum before, is that uh, if you have a very high level of vacuum when you're when you're doing a piece of fish, let's say, your initial bite will be extremely juicy, but all the water will kind of like rush out. And then as you start chewing, I think it gets more of a
+
+[34:20] fiber retaste and it turns almost, uh, how would you guys describe it? Like, almost like, you know, if you've done it, you know what I'm talking about. The texture isn't good on the on the 6th and 7th chew, let's say. Right. It's like putting a brick on it in just a normal manner of cooking. It pushes all of the water out and so it just becomes a grainy interior. Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I don't really understand the, the, I don't, I haven't yet, to my satisfaction, figured out the actual mechanism of what's
+
+[34:48] happening. I just know from a practitioner standpoint that this occurs. So what we recommend is that if you're going to bag fish. You want to bag it at a low level of vacuum, just enough to get the bag, basically, you know, a good seal around the food. And if you're going to bag poultry the same. I actually prefer to do poultry without vacuum in ziplocs, but poultry in a vacuum, if you're going to do it, I would recommend doing a low vacuum just for yourself, if you have the time, sometime I would take like 3 identical pieces and seal one at like 98, one at
+
+[35:21] 99, and then one at full vac and cook them identically, and then just taste a difference. Like next time you're going to cook a lot of something and you have the time to do it, I would definitely do it. But the vacuum machine that you have is a fantastic machine, and, you know, I kind of wish I had that for my house because it's got a very good chamber size to, you know, to machine size ratio.
+
+[35:40] It's really a nice, nice machine. I mean, and it does so many things so well in the fact that you can, uh, I mean, I've done blueberries, uh, last season that, uh, uh, at low, uh, you know, a low VAC, but it, it preserves them, you know, without the ice and without all the, uh, other issues that, uh,
+
+[35:59] uh, you know, come up when you try to, uh, freeze anything. Oh, yeah. And, you know, another, like, easy application is you could portion out, like, let's say, if you're like me, you have 2 kids, you make a whole boatload of pasta for dinner, and then you have a bunch left
+
+[36:11] over, and you want to be able to serve them for lunch or something like that. If you bag down the leftovers after they're done. It makes it a lot easier to reheat that stuff without either crying it out of ruining. I mean, it really is, you know, it seems extravagant for the home, but it really, you know, it really has its uses. You know, I really like it. I almost think it's going to be the next big thing. hope so. You know, that it just had, if somebody could teach how good vacuuming is, you know, and I understand, food saver sort of guided the way for, you know, the whole consumer public to begin thinking about
+
+[36:42] the stuff. But yeah, it's really an amazing, uh, uh, kitchen tool. Oh, yeah. No, it's a, no, no question that, uh, it, we, I hope that they become more and more prevalent and maybe the price is coming down. I know mini packs working on it. I'm not a big fan of the food saver. I like the professional ones a lot better, but I hope to get that next section of the Primer out soon. Maybe if I have some time over the 4th of July break, I'll work on it. is laughing because she knows that I won't. And then just I also ended up buying a sous vide
+
+[37:13] supreme, and now I see that, uh, uh, uh, they're com- not them, but uh, uh, the,
+
+[37:20] uh, poly-science people are coming out with a, a new circulator. Have you seen their new circulator? Yeah, yeah, it's good. Is it? Yeah. I like I like the sous vide supreme because it's easy and you can just sort of stick it away. Have you ever used a circulator? Like a regular one. You will love, let me tell you something. It's it's just boatloads, boatloads better. It's just, you know, when you move from a non-stirred bath to a stirred bath. Plus, it's so much easier to put away. This thing's the size of like, uh, it's like, you know, in between a stick blender and a regular blender. It's, you know, it's, it's, um, yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm nothing against the sous vide Supreme. I never cooked with it, but, I mean, I use circulating... It works very well and I've just been, I've been doing a lot of like, uh, lamb chops. And you just hit them right on when, when you do it at like 140 for like an hour and, you know, some minutes and then, then
+
+[38:21] uh, serum off, it just becomes so perfect. Get your hands on it. Just test it. Play with a circulator. I guarantee, I've never, here's 2 things I've never heard someone say. I've never heard someone say, hey, I regretted buying that Vitaprep blender. And I've never heard someone say, I've regretted buying that circulator. I've just never heard it. Maybe someone somewhere has said that, but I've never heard it. Yeah, sous vide supreme. doesn't actually have a stirred bath, right? It's not stirred. No it's an unstirred bath. It's not that it does a bad job. It's just, to me, it's bigger than it needs to be in your kitchen and it doesn't, it doesn't add circulation. So if you're doing a longer cooked item, you're going to be probably be okay, but if you're doing shorter term items or if your stuff's coming in and out of the bath a lot,
+
+[39:01] you know, I think I always think you're better off with circulation. So it would be like a one bag, one bag at a time. I mean, the circulator is going to be more money, a little bit. I mean, I think the Souviet Supreme is about a 500 now and the circulator is going to come in just under eight, but, you know, to me,
+
+[39:15] it's, uh, I mean, it's easy for me to say because, you know, I, you know, I've had the equipment for a long time, but for me, it's another $300 well
+
+[39:22] spent, but... But there's nothing wrong with sous vide, Supreme. No, no, no, no. And it holds product in there very well, and I've not had any real issues with it. I'm not saying anything negative about the sous vide supreme. No, nor am I. I love it, but I mean, you know, I may just got a 2nd one, just for the hell of
+
+[39:40] it, because, you know, there are times that you want to do vegetables along with the meat. And
+
+[39:47] at different temperatures. Well, you know, I don't know if you have anyone in your house who is going to need some convincing that you need this, but you can tell them I said that the circulator is a good
+
+[39:55] purchase. Now, can you sell me on the, uh, on, uh, uh, your,
+
+[40:04] what, what was the one that you just got, uh, uh, what, the roto that? If you have 20 grand to spend, yeah, call Buke and get one right away, but like... Anyway, listen, thanks for calling. I got someone else to come in. run out of time. Thanks a lot. Very good, thank you. Did we lose our, we lose our next caller? Are we still got it? Oh, there's no one. Oh, we had someone. Now I made nine, I cut this poor guy off, John, off, because I thought you said we had another guy coming in. So, Dave, if you're going to actually have to cryo back, some fish. What is the general rule of thumb for the percentage of vacuum? Fish? you know, look, you want the minimum vacuum that you can that you can get on fish and you want to bag fish with with oil or some other
+
+[40:50] liquid so that it doesn't crush the portions down. I think a lot of people when they 1st get a vacuum machine, they put a hard vac on fish and then they, you know, they, the portion looks insane. It looks like a pillow because they've crushed the bag around it. And they're much better off, you know, doing a light VAC. You know, I love the vacuum machine, but get the circulator 1st and then and then, you know, play around. I think we have another... He came back, the person, yeah. Oh, yeah? Is John? No, no, no. Oh, the persecuted. Hello? Hi. Hi, I'm Janelle. Hey, Janelle. Hey, I have a question about brisket. Brisket, okay. Every time I try to cook it, it comes out terrible. Is there a trick to having it come out, you know, like you get in a restaurant, you know, kind of melting in your mouth. How do you cook it? Well, I've tried grilling it, and that hasn't worked because I haven't been able to maintain a low temperature on my grill.
+
+[41:40] very difficult. So, yeah, so, so I, just the oven, you know, uh, about 250 for, uh, depending on how many pounds it is, you know,
+
+[41:50] a long time. But, um, I don't know if I should sear it 1st or if there's like a trick to it that I'm missing. Okay, so I'm dealing with a fundamental deficit and that it's been so long since I've had to cook without a circulator. But it's difficult, but, um, yeah, so, uh, I would guess that, uh, I wonder whether
+
+[42:12] they, the, the guys in Texas put an initial seer on it or not. Probably not. I don't know. Probably not. Isn't it all about the Maillard? Well, it, you know, at brisket, it's all about, okay, so a brisket is a tough cut of meat that has a lot of
+
+[42:23] connected tissue, right? And so the basic technique is you're going to overcook the hell out of the brisket, meat. But then over time, you're going to break down the collagen and the collagen that you break down is going to turn into gelatin and that's going to remoisten the meat. So, you know, one of the problems you might have had is that you might not have cooked it long enough for it to get
+
+[42:42] remoist again, but you treat it basically like a braise. Cooks Illustrated, I believe, did a brisket recipe for the house recently, but I
+
+[42:57] haven't I haven't looked at it. But in general, you're right, low and slow is the way to go, but you have to give it enough time for the collagen to kind of convert.
+
+[43:04] The commercial guys do it in very, you know, in a very low heat in
+
+[43:07] a pit, and the smoke gives it that characteristic smoke ring, and then also treats it at a fairly low temperature, so that it's basically doing almost like a confit thing, but without the fat. It's cooking at those kind of temperatures at those low temperatures. And, uh, you could. if you braise it, it's not going to taste like brisket. taste like a braise. It'll be delicious, but it won't be it won't be the same thing. I feel I feel awful. You know what I'm going to do? You know what I'm going to do? Here's what I'm going to do. Go to, okay, listen, in a week's time. Give me a week. I'm going to research this thing. Go to www.cookingissues.com. And someone will have posted a thread in the forum section. Go to the forums, and someone will have posted a section on it, and we'll figure this problem out for you so it doesn't happen to you again, okay? I seem really great. Really great techniques with marination, like a 24 hour marination before the actual cooking. That'll keep it. We're going to start a discussion on the forums of cooking issues, and we're going to get this tacked down because we have some Texans who go to the
+
+[44:06] blog, and I'm sure they will, they will tell me that anything I say is preposterous and stupid. And having had the brisket they make down there. They do know how to make good brisket. Anyway. Great. All right. Thanks very much. Thanks for calling. All right, bye bye. All right, so we have someone else on the line here. Who do we got? What do we got? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi. How you doing? Hi, I have some questions. Is this, is it, who's this? Uh, this is Weepop. We pop, we pop soupy pot. Like, okay, people who are listening, this call is coming in live from Bangkok, Thailand.
+
+[44:44] This is, this is, this is WePop SoupyPot, one of the great all-time people, a friend of cooking issues,
+
+[44:53] a friend of ours. And so we pop. What is your question all the way from Asia? What is your question? All right. So I eat a lot of beef, right? And, uh, so, have been picking up in Thailand. and a lot of chefs are cooking
+
+[45:08] tender, sous vide tenderloin. But, uh, I think, I think, um, previous color has kind of
+
+[45:15] uh, answered the question already and and you've sort of half answered the question. Uh, so why, why does tenderloin become really fiverse and really mushy? Okay, Tenderloin is a huge problem. As you know, um, I can't believe wePop was calling. I am so happy. We pop. I'm so happy. Anyway, so the Tenderloin is an interesting case. Tenderloin wants to be cooked at extremely low temperatures because it doesn't have a lot of connective tissue.
+
+[45:43] The more connective tissue that a piece of meat has, kind of the higher the temperature, the longer you need to cook it. When you cook something at a low temperature for a long time, a lot of the initial effects of whether or not you're going to overcook
+
+[45:54] something happened right away. And this is the hardest thing when you're learning to cook low temperature or sous vide to get wrap your head around is that you're no longer cooking in terms of just, oh, I'm going to turn the temperature up to cook more. It's really temperature and time and if stuff doesn't overcook just because you cook it longer, but you do get textural changes.
+
+[46:11] So what happens in meat that is essentially devoid of connective tissue is that it gets not
+
+[46:17] an overcooked because it doesn't taste overcooked. But as you chew it, it tastes kind of fibery, as you said. And so with tenderloin, you want to cook it at a low temperature, at the low end of the scale. when I say that, I'm sorry for all of you in America land, I think in Celsius, because I work at the French culinary Institute, you want to cook it at like 544 Celsius right around there.
+
+[46:37] You don't want to go too much higher and you want to put a sear on it and you only want to cook it. A tenderloin for like 45 minutes. Now, the problem here is, is that, is that this isn't food code because you're not, you're not keeping it long enough. Now, but it is kind of safe. As long as you sear it, you kill all the bacteria on the outside. It actually is kind of safe because the inside of the muscle is sterile, but it's just not code. You know what I mean? But I don't know what the codes are in Thailand. We probably have no code. Oh nice. Even though...
+
+[47:09] Yeah? How you doing over there in Thailand? How's everything going? Oh, um, well, things are going great. We have new equipments and we're playing with food on this end. Well, you ship us out there, shit. Figuring out a lot of stuff. I need to, you know, I love, you know, I love all the Thai ingredients. How come you don't get me shipped out there? We got to go out to Thailand. Cooking issues has to Stasi, right? Cooking issues has to go on the road to Thailand. We pop is maybe a happy man. The new David Thompson restaurant is going to open up here in about a month time. For those of you that don't know, he has the best cookbook on Thai food in the English language, in my opinion. Didn't you buy something, Weebop recently? Oh, yes. And I bought a secret royal Thai recipe that's supposedly not in print anymore, which David Thompson is actually going to use part of that book
+
+[48:01] to, um, to base his new menus on. So you gonna email us the recipe or what? I think, I think, it's entire. would have to translate it. But yeah, it's recipes from like 1908. Oh, nice. Extremely old. All righty. Well, we pop. Thank you so much for calling. I can't wait till we can see you back in the States. We got to get you back. got to get you back to the states backstage side. All right, thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye, Pop. So what are we doing now? We haven't taken another. have to go to break. We have another caller? No, you have another minute. We have another minute. All right, so this then was the inaugural version of cooking issues, the
+
+[48:41] show on Heritage Radio Network. Today, cooking issues was brought to you by the Barterhouse. And the Barterhouse, you know, works with the, we've polished off an entire bottle of one of their, one of their family vineyards wines here, the Kerner Estate Chardonnay, and we appreciate that they
+
+[48:58] are, they are the sponsor of the show. Thank you for listening and come back next Tuesday. Fishes, fish, rock, bro. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] My name's Mackenzie, and I started to GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a
+
+[0:05] nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back
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+[0:19] bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.
+
+[0:46] GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200000000 people. Start your GoFundMe today at goFundMe.com. That's goFundMe.com, goFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe.
+
+[1:05] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. Hello, you're listening to Dave Arnold on cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with your cooking
+
+[1:29] issues, and we try to solve them, be they technical, be they not technical, we are going to work on them for you. The Colin number here is 718-497-2128. That is 718-497-2128. And I'm told that for live call ins, we are authorized to give away heritage, meet pork chops, porterhouse pork chops. So that's an incentive to call in. Please do calling with your questions. I'm here with Nastasia Lopez. Also working at cooking issues. And we actually have some email questions. If you want to email questions, email them to N. Lopez at Frenchculinary.com.
+
+[2:09] Right. Okay, so let's start Nastasia with some questions that were emailed in from last week. What do we have here? Uh, we have one from Mike who wants to know
+
+[2:20] about, um, curing a large cut of meat, I think, or pastrami. All right, so yeah, so Mike is making pastrami with beef blade and he's been pumping it with liquids to cure it. And he wants to maybe move to a vacuum machine. Now, some of the advantage of the vacuum machine is you don't have to use a lot of brine. You can go dryer with a dryer rub and cure quickly. And I can assure you that curing in a vacuum bag does work. I apologize to Mike. We actually just got a vacuum marinator so that we can run a bunch of different vacuum tests and see
+
+[2:51] exactly what the optimum vacuum level is. There's some disagreement. Some chefs I know when they put their, they'll use something like an insecure powder or Morton's tender quick, which is basically salt plus curing powder in it. curing powder is nitrates, nitrates, rather. And, you know, these aren't some sort of crazy things. These have been used for 100s of years, so I don't want anyone saying we're adding some sort of crazy newfangled, you know, artificial crap to it. Nitrites have been in cured meats for centuries and centuries. Actually, millennia in the form of impurities that are already naturally occurring in salt deposits around the world.
+
+[3:22] So that aside, it's a little tirade tangent for you. But if you just, you know, either use a brine or rub your cure onto the meat and
+
+[3:32] pack it in a vacuum bag, I think you'll notice, I usually use a high vacuum. Some, you know, professionals say that you actually don't want a super high vacuum because it can actually, at a certain point, hinder
+
+[3:41] the, you know, the penetration of the brine, but I haven't tested it yet, so I don't know, but you'll notice much, much quicker penetration in
+
+[3:48] a vacuum bag, much quicker. So for instance, I haven't done pastrami this way, but pork belly, you can get almost all the way through a pork belly overnight in
+
+[3:58] a vacuum bag. So vacuum machine is definitely a great way to accelerate a cure. Now, from a taste standpoint on a long cured item. I would never use it to accelerate a cure and a long cooked, a long cured item, rather, like a ham, let's say, because a lot of the flavor of a ham, you know, I'm specifically talking about, you know, longer cured hams, has to do with the length of time it takes for the curing to happen.
+
+[4:22] So in general, even though I'm a tech guy, things that are cured over a long period of time for flavor, I tend not to try to accelerate
+
+[4:29] too much. Thanks, Mike, if that didn't answer your question, please, you know, post something on the forums at www.cookingissues.com forward slash
+
+[4:39] forums or email us another question. Thanks for the question. And before I take the next question, I'd like to say that today's show is sponsored by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich sustainable native grasslands or the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and as natural as a surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.herstranch.com. That's www.herstranch.com. Actually, I'd like to taste some of that stuff, huh? Yeah. Maybe they'll send us some. Yeah. And again, the number to call in for this show is 718-497-2128, cooking issues at
+
+[5:22] 718-497-2128. All right, Nastasia, what's up next? We have another question from an email from Jason, who's a health nut, and
+
+[5:32] is going to buy a circulator from Polyscience. wants to know the best way to cook a skinless chicken breast. He wants to avoid butter, duck fat and use something like olive oil or coconut oil. Uh, shitty baggage. She brine it, bone off. What do you think? All right, so what was his name again? Jason. Alright, Jason. So, you know, you caught me a little bit of a disadvantage because I almost never cook for health. I almost always cook for pure taste. So, you know, I'm always a little bit out of sorts when I, when, you know, I have to comment on nutrition. However, if you just want to know how to make a skinless chicken breast taste as good as you
+
+[6:07] can. You've gone the right route with a circulator. Now here's the problem. If you vacuum a chicken breast in a vacuum bag and then circulate it, you can, I would do it at 63 degrees, by the way, if that's a little
+
+[6:19] too, a standard chicken breast in a vacuum bag, 63 degrees for roughly, you know, an hour or so is more than enough, that's a good way to go.
+
+[6:28] If that's a little too underdone for you, I would up it to maybe 64. I wouldn't go above 65. I know this one's counter to what you're taught your whole life, but trust me, try it. And I think you'll agree. I tend not to like to vacuum the chicken because when you do, it tends to take on a canned chicken texture. It's almost too juicy. And when you bite into it, all the juices kind of flow out and
+
+[6:51] then the 3rd and 4th chew are a little drier than I like. So I tend to put them into Ziploc bags and cook them that way. Oh, by the way, for anyone listening who doesn't know what the hell we're talking about. The piece of equipment we're talking about is an immersion circulator. And an immersion circulator is basically just a piece of equipment that lets you keep very, very accurate water temperatures. And this allows you to cook things very, very accurately. So you never overcooked them. You don't have to monitor them too much. It's very simple. You know, food doesn't dry out. It's a great piece of equipment. And, you know, if you look under low temperature and sous vide on www.cookingissues.com. We have enough information to choke you on emergency circulators if you want to know about it. So go look at it there. But they're actually a fantastic piece of equipment that people are using more in their homes. Now, back to your question. I wouldn't vacuum bag them, even though I love vacuum machines. I would use Ziploc bags. And the way you put it, the reason is, is because if you don't put a vacuum on it, you're going to get much more of a natural texture in the chicken breast.
+
+[7:49] Now, you can use any liquid you want, really, you know, from chicken stock up to olive oil. I tend not to bag too much with my really flavorful olive oils because I think the taste interaction can be a little bit strange sometimes. But, you know, you can use basically anything you want. And you don't need that much of it in the bag, actually. So you just seal the bag up till it's almost done, and then the trick is dunking it underwater. Uh, and then the water basically displaces all the air so that you get a nice
+
+[8:14] uh, seal. And it's very, very simple to do. There's a, you know, not to pump the blog again, but on www.cookingissues.com, there's a section on
+
+[8:22] Ziploc bagging with step-by-step picture instructions on how to do a really good bagging job with
+
+[8:29] a Ziploc. And I can I can make my ziplocs very quickly look as good as a vacuum pack job to, you know, the untrained
+
+[8:35] eye. So I think that's really kind of the way, the way to go. And you can, you know, season it normally. You don't really need to brine it except for the brine's going to increase the salt level on the inside of the meat, which is going to give you kind of probably a better taste in texture, but you don't need it from an overcooking standpoint because you're not going to overcook it. Now, because you're not going to have a lot of texture on this because it's a skinless chicken breast and it's going to be somewhat soft. These preps are usually better, I think, kind of chopped up for use in salads. They're really good for cold preps the next day. But, you know, I tend not to eat skinless chicken on its own. But, you know, this is a really good technique for a cold prep because when it cools down, it's still
+
+[9:12] going to be delicious. It's not going to be dry at all. Uh, and so recap, 63 uh, for about an hour, 64 maybe, if you like it a little bit firmer. You think that got it? Yeah I think so. All right. We have another question. We're going to wait to see if your friend, Michael Escanis, calls in. Oh, yes, we have a question regarding a recipe from Michael Asconis, a pastry chef at La Bernadan. And I was too stupid to text him beforehand, ask him the answer to the question. So we have a text into him, so we're going to handle that question towards the end of the program. But since we were off last week, why don't you tell them how you spent your 4th of July and what you cooked? Well, okay. So, you know, 4th of July, I usually go either to Maine or to Cape Tod or some combination thereof.
+
+[9:55] This year, I went to Cape Cod and, you know, as many of you know, Cape Cod and Massachusetts is, you know, kind of lobster country. The guys in Maine actually make fun of the Cape Cod lobsters. They say the main lobsters taste better than the Cape Cod lobsters, and the guys in Canada make fun of the main lobsters. So the further north you go, the more they make fun of the southerly lobsters. anyway. That's not here to there. But so anyway, so main lobsters, right? They have there's a catch size limit. Like you can't catch lobsters that are too small and you can't catch lobsters that are too big and it's based on the measurement of the back shell. And that's a conservation method, you know, effort. And it must be working because
+
+[10:31] the, you know, the lobster fishery in Maine is actually still quite healthy. Now, in Cape Cod, they don't have those kinds of limits on male lobsters.
+
+[10:41] Male lobsters, you can basically take any size you want if you dive for them. There's certain, I think there's limits on how many you can take per day. You're not supposed to take big females because lobsters, unlike most creatures, as they get older and older and older, They still bear more, not just the same amount of eggs, more and more and more and more eggs. So an older lobster, female lobster, is much more valuable to the lobster population than a young female lobster.
+
+[11:02] So you shouldn't take the older the older females. But the older males, I kind of think, are fair game. Now, a lot of people think lobsters, big lobsters, they taste bad. And this is just because 2 problems. One, they cook them too long because they have to cook them a long time to cook them through.
+
+[11:19] And secondly, they don't serve them properly. Lobsters, as they get older, the muscle fibers get bigger and bigger and coarser and coarser. So if you were to bite into the lobster tail, let's say, of an old lobster, it would taste kind of rubbery and tough. Now, the trick with this is, is to just slice the tail and meat like that into disks. And then the fibers are already shortened and you're actually biting, you know, kind of with the grain and it breaks apart.
+
+[11:43] And, you know, it has a different texture from a young lobster tail, but it's still, you know, very delicious. So, you know, a lot of people, they don't kind of, they don't believe this. And, you know, usually the biggest lobster I'll cook is like six, eight, eight pounds, which is still a monster by most standards. I mean, you know, you know, most people are out there with their, you know, one, two, and £3 lobsters, sissies. And, uh, and so, uh, what you know, what we did is I walked into this store in Truro, Mass. And I was like, yeah, what kind of lobster do you have? What kind of, you know, what kind of size lobsters? I got, I got £20 £20, £20 lobster. I was like, geez, £20 lobster. I bought it, basically. And a £20 lobster is really, really big lobster. And I thought if you can get any lobster to prove my point that big lobsters aren't any worse than small lobsters, that, you know, it's going to be harder to get one bigger than about
+
+[12:30] 20 pounds. Now, the guy in the store told me that a £20, this £20 lobster is like 130 years old. And, you know, and then everyone else is like, oh, my God, you're eating something that's 130 years old. It older than anyone at the table. You know, the lobster almost could have fought in the Civil War, all this kind of. But that's the nonsense. First of all, the lobster does not fight in the Civil War. The lobster is sitting at the bottom of the ocean, you know, killing other lobsters when it can and hiding whenever it molts. You know, it's still just a lobster. It's still, you know, its brain function doesn't get any higher just because it's old, right? I mean, that's kind of thing. This kind of sentimental notion that just because it's old. You know, gooey duck clams can live to be 140 and, you know, people don't have that much symbol. I don't know anyone that has a lot of sympathy for the gooey duct. Anyway, anyway, that's aside the point. The fact of the matter is, this lobster wasn't actually a 100 and 30 years old. Uh, you know, that's based on these kind of crazy formulas that they have for lobsters,
+
+[13:19] uh, you know, that don't kind of fit older lobsters. It's probably, but I mean, it was old. to be honest, it was probably like 60 or 70 years old, you know, so, yeah, anyway, so here's what I did. I had the guy at the lobster store. He wanted to cook it for 45 minutes, which obviously would have made it, you know, inedible and
+
+[13:34] terrible. And this is why people think big lobsters are bad. So instead what I had him do is I had him steam it for 8 minutes. This kills the lobster and it lets the meat separate from the shell. Then I got metal shears because the shell is so darn thick. And I cut all the meat out of it, right? And then I sliced it thin, and I ziploc bagged it with butter, and then I quick poached each individual slice. So each slice was cooked very quickly, which preserves the texture. The lobster that's cooked for too long, gets mushy, and it was sliced properly so that when you chewed it, it wasn't going to be tough. And it was, I think it was one of the best lobsters I've ever made. And, you know, it certainly it fed our whole cruise. Delicious. So anyway, that you can check out that post also, you know, pumping ourselves again. Why not? on www.cookingissues.com. Anyway, I've been told that we're, what are we, we going to break? We're going out to break and we'll be right back with cooking issues. Funky down. Hey, listen to the man. God, Paula. Hey, back. No bloody. Beep, beep, gotta get over before we go under that. Yeah, Lord. Beep, beep. We gotta get on B before we go undone. Hey, good big. It didn't say what you mean. It just changed. Brand new funky, resident da. Start mark going up, jobs, going down. It ain't no market job to be fine. Keep going. Change my glass. Now I drink from my baby, come getting bad. Beep, beep, bump. But got it over before we going down. Listen to me. Let's get together and raise it. Let's get together. Get some land. Raise our food like the man. Save my money, like mob. Put up the fact that own the job.
+
+[15:45] Hello, godfather. Hello. Turn on your phone. Get down and pray, Lord. Get sex and sex, get funky, and danging. Loving me, baby, love me nice done. Don't make it fun, but can you make it twice, then? I like it. Beep, beep. We gotta get over before we go under. You are listening to Dave Arnold on cooking issues on the Heritage radio network, where you call in and we answer your cooking issues. Please call in to 718-497-2128.
+
+[16:26] That's 718-497 and 2128. Call in with any cooking related question you want and you will get free delicious pork chops. Emailing won't get you the pork. Sorry, folks. you know, email no pork chops with the emails. Okay. So we talked about lobster. I'm going to wait a couple more minutes to see whether or not we get Michael Escanas to get him on the phone to talk to him about his recipe.
+
+[16:54] We're talking about the question came from actually a person who reads our
+
+[17:00] blog and she, it came from the person who sent us, yeah, Monica. Yeah, delicious mana candy, which you can also read about on www.cookingissues.com. pump, pump, pump. Okay. So, uh, let's talk about cocktails for a minute while we're while we're waiting. Next week, I guess, I'm going off to New Orleans to go to the Tales of the Cocktail, which is a, you know, kind of a cocktail convention that they have in New Orleans every
+
+[17:25] year. And, you know, a lot of the great, you know, bar people go every year and it's a, it's kind of a crazy debauched drink fest. in New Orleans in the middle of the summer because, you know, they're too cheap to have it in New Orleans any other time. And no one, no one wants to go to New Orleans, you know, in the middle of July where it's a 1000000000 degrees and, you know, 100% humidity,
+
+[17:43] you know, and sit in, you know, some of the best old bars in the country, un-air conditioned, you know, drinking yourself into oblivion, but yet I do it every year. Anyway, just kidding. great event. Um, so this year, I'm going uh, and I'm part of a seminar called, uh, what's it called? The science of stirring. No, I did shaking last year. Uh, you know, Eben Eben Clem, the, you know, the kind of well-known bartender. He's kind of the, you know, the head of the BR guest, you know, mega restaurant chains bar program. And he pulls me in every year. Last year we did kind of the science behind shaking a cocktail where we actually came up with some interesting information, which is as far as the dilution of your cocktail is concerned. And as far as the temperature of your cocktail is concerned. Really, with, as long as you're within reasonable limits, the way you shake the cocktail doesn't make a bit of
+
+[18:35] difference, really. It makes a definite difference on the, also, the ice type doesn't make as much difference as you think. It makes a different difference on the texture of the drink, how it tastes, you know, the texture of it in your mouth. But in terms of temperature and dilution, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. This year we're taking on stirring. And you'll have to, uh, you know, I suppose I shouldn't post the answers before the
+
+[18:59] seminar that would mean people didn't have to go to the seminar. Yeah, right. So we'll be posting that stuff hopefully after next week after the seminar tales of the cocktail. But something I will talk about is dilution and pre-batching cocktails. So, you know, a lot of times you have to make a cocktail and then, you know, batch it all together. Let's say you're doing an event or a function or party, and you have to put all the cocktail together beforehand and then serve it out. And a lot of people have kind of crazy ideas in their heads on how to figure out how much water to add to a
+
+[19:32] pre-batch cocktail to really get it to work properly when you put it in the fridge. So let's, by the way, pre-batch cocktails. It's very hard to pre-batch a shaking cocktail because, you know, you really do need to shake a shaking cocktail to get the texture right. We ran side by side blind taste tests of drinks that are should be shaken versus stirred. And we did we did them both shaken and stirred. So we did a daiquiri, which should be shaken, and we did, you know, daiquiri stir and a daiquiri shaken, blind with blindfolds on, and you easily tell the difference. And we also took drinks that should be stirred like a Manhattan. Uh, we know, which is, uh, you know, whiskey. We used, you know, rye whiskey, vermouth, some bitters. And, uh, you know, we stirred some and shook some and tasted them
+
+[20:19] blind and huge difference. Now, the shaking is hard to emulate in a pre-batched cocktail unless you have liquid nitrogen. It turns out we've done some tests that if you chill, a drink, ala minute that you've already diluted with liquid nitrogen, you can emulate the texture of a shake and drink pretty well.
+
+[20:33] But, uh, stir drinks, uh, are basically good if you just dilute them properly and then chill them because, uh, basically stirring is just a chilling and diluting process. It's not a texturizing process. that's why that's why you use it for those drinks. You don't want to add a lot of extra texture in a stir of drink. So, you know, if you can, you choose a third drink to do your pre-batch drinks with. And then here's how to determine how much, how much water to add. Make your make a single drink, right? Make it. using volume like you normally would with jiggers, hmm? Then weigh that on an accurate scale, weigh the drink, write that number down, right? That's how much drink you're starting with. Now, add your ice, stir it, just like you're making a normal drink, normal drink, right? Stir it, right? Then strain it. Now, weigh how much the drink weighs now. That is uh, that is the weight of the total cocktail. If you subtract the weight of the liquor that went into it, the liquor and ingredients that went into
+
+[21:31] it from the final weight of the cocktail. You have basically how much water you should add, right? And that's really the best way to determine instead of guessing in your head 25%. And it also doesn't work to try and dilute it by just diluting it with water when it's at room temperature and then tasting
+
+[21:46] it because when you chill it, the balance is going to be off. So you really just want to make a drink the traditional way and then weigh how much water is in it. It's slightly more complicated than that because some of your liquor is actually held on the ice and so you have to do a lot of fancy finagling. But within 2 or 3 grams of water, you know, you're going to be pretty much right doing it the way, the way I just told you. It seems complicated, but I think your pre-batched drinks are going to thank you for it. And you only need to do it once. If you write down the recipe, you can get that recipe right every time, you don't have to retest it every time. So it's a little bit of a pain in the butt, but well, well worthwhile. Right? My Snazi? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, uh, see, that's uh, pre-batching uh, pre-batching cocktails. What else should we talk about? Talk about the meat that's coming in. Oh my god, yeah. So, okay, so what's the name of the butcher again? It's like... Sizmer? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Where are they at? Chicago? Yeah. So there's a, there's this butcher shop. and, you know, I'm, I'm ruining the name, but it
+
+[22:44] says like Sizmer, CZ, CZ what? Z-I-M-E-R. Yeah. And these guys have been around for decades and decades. I think they're, you know, a couple generations older business now at this point, right? Yeah. And they specialize in bizarre rare meats, right? And meats that you wouldn't normally get. So what does that mean? I'm not talking, you know, buffalo, although they do have that. I'm talking beaver and lion. Uh, you know, what else? What else we get? Raccoon, bear. You know, things that you can't, you can't normally get, and meat that you can't normally buy because you can't, you know, in this country, you can't buy meat that's been hunted by a hunter.
+
+[23:22] You have to know a hunter who legally bags meat in order to get these kind of game
+
+[23:26] meats. So before I get people writing in, telling me I'm a horrible person for ordering lion meat to taste,
+
+[23:33] and by the way, we're going to taste a tiny piece of each one of them, then bag them and cook them sous vide because we'd think that these tough, you know, tough older meats are going to be best that way. Anyway. So before you get angry at me about ordering these meats, you should know kind of how it happens that these meats are sold. It's not a pretty story, but here's how it is. People get lions as pets because they're crazy, right? I mean, they're insane, you know? So they get lions as pets or they have lions and they use the lions as to breed. You know, like they're breeding lions either for, I don't know for what, for zoos, circuses, whatever, for other, you know, freak shows who want lions as pets, right? So they breathe them. And then once they're no longer good breeders anymore, or if someone has a pet and they don't want that pet anymore, they give them to animal brokers. And, you know, just like stray cats, you know, you give
+
+[24:30] a stray cat and they get put down. You don't have to see it. You don't have to do it, but you basically know your cat's being put down. The same thing happens with a lion. So they get the lion, and if they can't sell it, which often they can't, on an older lion, the lion is killed, the actual, the most valuable part about
+
+[24:47] is the skin. The skin is sold off for, you know, for fur, for lion fur, for whatever, making rugs, rugs, I guess, I don't know. But then the meat is basically a byproduct. So, you know, rather than let it go to waste, you know, these guys, you know, in Chicago, buy, you know, the meat from these exotic animal brokers and then freeze it and resell it. So no one's going out and slaughtering lions for the purpose of food. These are, you know, animals that probably shouldn't have been in the situation that they were
+
+[25:17] in, but not through the fault of the, you know, the butcher. It's just, you know, you know, once it, once you've killed the animal, you might as well put it to use. So we're going to taste all of these meats. what we have coming in? We got. have lion, black bear, a hole, raccoon, and 2 beaver tails. Two beaver tails. I thought we also got some of the regular beaver meat too, no? No. I thought we did. You sure? I'm pretty sure Beaver tail is an interesting one. Oh, yak, yes, yes. The Tibetan favorite, yak. We'll get some yak milk cheese. We'll go get some yak milk cheese and then we'll have, you know, yak, yak and yak. We'll get some yak butter and we'll make Tibetan Tibetan tea with yak butter floating on the top of it, which is actually wretched. I don't know how people drink that, but we'll make it, you know, in the sense of, you know, we want to be authentic. Authentic sous vide Tibetan dinner. Anyway, um, Beaver is an interesting one because back in the day. Here's the thing. The butcher laughed, laughed his, you know, rear off because he says there's no meat on a beaver tail, and he always has people asking him to
+
+[26:16] buy it, to eat it, but he says there's basically no meat on it. So, you know, what are you going to do? And, um, you know, I think the reason most people call him that. I don't know how much of a history buff he is, but for all you history buffs out there, Um, you know, back in the day, there were many days, not just Fridays when Catholics weren't allowed to eat meat. There were many, many, you know, fast days and Lenten days. And on those days, you weren't allowed to eat meat. You could only eat fish, right? And so that, you know, in fact, that's my theory why in Italian
+
+[26:46] recipes, you'll find very few recipes that use dairy and fish because it wasn't just meat you weren't allowed to have on a fast day. It was dairy, so you didn't cook with dairy. You didn't cook, I believe also eggs and you didn't cook with meat. So these were, you know, basically fish-based, fish-based dishes. And this helped, you know, fuel the dried stockfish, you know,
+
+[27:08] and, you know, the dried cod, you know, dried fish business for 100s of years. Anyway, you know, and there's all sorts of religious reasons why they thought meat inflamed the passions and it was good,
+
+[27:18] et cetera, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, so, uh, beaver tail, because, uh, you know, they had kind of, you know,
+
+[27:25] this is pre-linnaeus, they had wacky, you know, ways of categorizing animals. So the actual beaver was an animal, and you couldn't eat that on the fast days, but beaver tail was seen kind of like fish.
+
+[27:37] And so you could eat beaver tail on a fast day. And so you actually get these recipes or these mentions
+
+[27:43] anyway, medieval documents of beaver tail, cooking beaver tail. And this has got to be why this guy gets the interest in it because there's lots of history buffs out there who, you know, are doing this kind of
+
+[27:53] thing. Oddly, also, whale clearly is not labeled as a meat, strangely is labeled as a fish. So if you could get ahold of some whale meat back in the day. I don't advocate that. But if you could get hold of it, you could have that on a fast day as well. I believe, I'm not sure how seal is classified, but I don't know. Anyway, so we'll let you know how the beaver tail and the lion is. The line's actually supposedly interesting because if you think about it, there's no commercially raised meat that we
+
+[28:19] have that comes from a carnivore. And supposedly, you know, they have a completely different taste carnivores do. So we'll let you know when that when that comes in. What's going on, Sassy? We have 2 more minutes, and then we're trying to look up the tables from Douglas
+
+[28:36] Baldwin. Okay, so I have a question that came in. Who you coming from? Caleb. Caleb, I have a question coming in from Caleb who's looking up, you know, Douglas Baldwin. Douglas Baldwin has a online, a sous vide primer, and he just came out with a book on sous vide cooking. And he's a he's a mathematician. I believe he lives out in Colorado somewhere near Denver. And he has a bunch of tables in there that allow you to calculate exactly when food's temperature, when food has come up to temperature, when you're cooking
+
+[29:07] it, sous vide or low temperature in a circulating bath. And for, you know, for those of you not hip to the fact, this is a, you know, a huge way of cooking now is that you'll put something in a bag and then put it in
+
+[29:16] water and it very gently and very evenly heats food. But a lot of people, when they're starting out, they worry a lot, lot, lot about whether or not the inside of their food has come up to temperature. And so they'll do things like stick thermometers into it, which is, I think, really kind of fraught with
+
+[29:32] problems because you have to get the thermometer in the right place. Otherwise you don't get the right answer. And, you know, a lot of times you won't get it in the right place and then you'll undercook something. Um, you know, the thermometer can puncture the bag and you can get leaks and this causes problems. Most often I think thermometers cause more problems than they help.
+
+[29:50] So, Douglas Baldwin being a mathematician, along with Nathan Mirvold, who's coming out with the Superbook in December, I think,
+
+[29:58] November, December on cooking. Nathan Mirville is a Microsoft guy who, you know, has a huge passion for cooking and has probably one of the greatest kitchens in the world, is working with Chris Young, formerly the
+
+[30:12] fat duck, and 15 other cooks on making the world's kind of greatest technology cookbook, you know, coming to Amazon
+
+[30:20] soon. I believe you can actually pre-order it now as of last week. If you've got the money for it. And anyway, so Nathan Mirvold on a website called Egullet, a number of years ago, a good number of years ago at this point, published a bunch of tables on how to figure out how long it would take food to get up to a certain temperature in a water bath based on certain dimensions.
+
+[30:39] And those tables work and are probably easier to work out than a formula. I don't know the formula because we haven't been able to find it yet, but I would definitely look up on
+
+[30:47] Eagle at Nathan Mirvold's tables, which are going to be much easier to use in a formula unless you're trying to create your own Excel document.
+
+[30:54] Without having the formula in front of me. It's hard for me to tell exactly what he's doing because he could either be calculating the food based on the fact that it's treating it as a big slab and trying to heat through the
+
+[31:05] slab or he could be talking about cylinders that are heating through. But I'll tell you this. All formulas that his formula, I'm pretty sure, is right. I've seen it once and it's good and he's a mathematician. He's good at that sort of thing. But any formula that tells you X number of inches per X number of minutes per pound or X number of minutes per inch are egregiously
+
+[31:25] false because as things get bigger, It's not linear, how much longer it takes to cook it. I tend not to use these formulas. I tend to cook a couple of things and then store in my mind how big those things are and how long they took to
+
+[31:37] cook and then just do it that way. And I'm almost never, you know, wrong. So I know that an egg takes about 45 minutes to an hour to get all the way up to temperature, a rolled chicken, uh, you know, like a, like a
+
+[31:50] torchon thing takes, uh, like an hour. I know that 36 inch striped bass, the size I normally get takes 3 hours. You know, so you kind of build up this knowledge. But I'll try and post some information on that in the forum for you sometime this week. Sorry, I couldn't be more accurate on the answers. We should go to break. All right, so we're gonna go to our 2nd break now. Please call in to claim your pork. You can ask anything, you know, the price of eggs, although I don't know it right now. Uh, anything like that at 718, 497-2128, that's 718-497-2128, cooking issues.
+
+[32:33] Please, Mr. Johnson. Don't play those blues so sad.
+
+[32:50] Please, Mr. Johnson. Don't play the blues so sad.
+
+[33:06] 'Cause a night before land. I lost the best game, I ever had.
+
+[33:21] He's Mr. Johnson. Sin, my love.
+
+[33:38] Please, Mr. Johnson. Sing, my
+
+[33:45] love, six, oh
+
+[33:54] Send me tonight Like I've never been said before Please, Mr. Johnson. Don't sing those blues so sad.
+
+[34:25] He's Mr. Johnson. Don't play those blues so sad.
+
+[34:41] Because the night before last I lost the best girl I am.
+
+[34:55] This is Dave Arnold, cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. Call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Caller gets free delicious pork chops. Uh, okay, so, uh, we're having trouble getting through to Michael Asconis, the pastry chef at La Bernadan. And so I'm just going to look at the question from Kitchen Girl. Uh, Kitchen Girl without the, uh, it's G, by the way, if you look, she has a blog, and if you're looking for a blog, it's Kitchen GRL, Kitchen Girl,
+
+[35:31] uh, that's her, that's her blog. And she sent us some delicious, actually, before I go into a question, some mona candy. So, uh, did we talk about that last time, Sazi? No, talk about, yeah. All right. So, you know, mana is a real interesting substance,
+
+[35:45] it when I want to say mana, I mean like mana from heaven, like in the Bible. Uh, and, uh, you know, for, you know, my whole life, you know, this is something I've, you know, read about and known about, uh, never knew was actually a real, a real thing, a real product. Intel, uh, this guy named, uh, um, you know, uh,
+
+[36:04] the Sharifi, the uh, saffron king, uh, uh, gave us, so he's like, here's mana. I'm like, what? What the hell are you talking about, mana? And then I basically I did a lot, a lot of research. It turns out that mana isn't one thing. Mana is a huge variety of different products and here's what they all have in common. One, they're sweet, okay? Two. They appear as if from nowhere. They, you know, they're not, they're not cultivated. They're wild things. They're providential. They're, you know, they're kind of they're bonuses. Uh, and uh, and so, you know, those are basically the 2 main, main criteria. Most of them are actually dried sap from trees. You know, probably, you know, a lot of it hasn't been researched actually, strangely, but little bugs will chew on the undersides of leaves. The sap will come out, then dry up. And that dried sap is mana mixed, mixed along with, you know, little bits of twigs and leaves and other nonsense like that.
+
+[37:00] Another way mana is made is actually it's honeydew, which means that a bug bites into the leaf. And this honeydew is, you know, what aphids make, you know, here in the states and ants collect it. So what honeydew is, is a bug will bite a juicy leaf or stem of a plant. And the pressure of the sap is so strong compared to the bug that it literally
+
+[37:20] shoots, it shoots sap through the bug and out it's behind. Uh, and that's honeydew. I mean, it's gross to say it that way, but it's basically like force pumped bug poop that then dries up on the outside into a delicious, sweet substance. Uh, anyway. So they go out into the desert. Most of these manas happen in the Middle East, you know, kind of, you know, because it's dry enough there for these monas to form. And uh, people will go out in the morning with twigs and beat on bushes and catch this mana that comes down,
+
+[37:51] uh, you know, from, you know, from the bushes and and use it. And there's dozens and dozens of different types, but there's a candy that's been made, I guess, in, you know, the
+
+[38:02] entire that entire area, uh, you know, Iraq, Iran, uh, and uh, called Gaz in Iran. I forget what it's called in Iraq, but Kitchen Girl sent us some of this mana candy, which is basically just
+
+[38:15] mana with a little bit, you know, more sugar and nuts in it. I forget whether they put egg whites in. I have the ingredient list on the blog. But it's delicious, and it's got a really unique texture that, you know, it's weird. It's kind of chewy, but it breaks. It's very monolike, or you can get the straight mana, which is delicious, you know, mixed in bourbon,
+
+[38:38] which is incredibly delicious. You can get that from Saffron King. He has a website, the Saffron King. And this stuff is crazy because they, they, not so much the mono candy. That didn't change as you've been in them all the time. That was more of a textural thing, the candy. But the actual mana itself, every bite you take of it tastes a little bit different than the bite you had before. And different people have different perceptions of it. I wrote an article in the New York Times on it, which, you know, you can search for. We did a blog post on it. Anyway, it's a long way of saying, kitchen girl, sent us a question. Uh, you know, that she very kindly sent us the uh, the mana and then she, she has a question. She's working on a pate de fouille recipe. I never know how to pronounce it, whether it's potato food or pat de food. I'm terrible at that. And pastry chefs always laugh at me and correct me, as do all the Frenchies at the school, but, you know, crap on them. Uh, so anyway, so she's working on Michael Asconis's, uh, his recipe here. And basically, what you do is, is you're cooking the fruit puree to 180 degrees Fahrenheit,
+
+[39:40] with sugar, then you add pectin, sugar, and glucose syrup, and then bring it up to a higher temperature, 225 Fahrenheit, and then pour it into a
+
+[39:49] silpatre to set. Um, and she's having problems with her sugar, uh, with the, sorry, the fruit burning in
+
+[39:57] the, in the puree when, when she's doing it. Um, and I don't disagree. I'm sure she is having some problems. She says that 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Her fruit is starting to brown and sometimes burn, and then it only gets worse when she adds more sugar. And she's thinking that what's happening is her pan actually is getting too hot. So she's actually getting scorching because her pan is too hot. Now, I don't have a lot of experience with this. So what I'm going to do is make some random stabs at ways to try and fix this. And then I'm actually going to try and get the actual answer and I'll post it in the forums at cookingissues.com. But I guarantee that Michael is probably using an induction burner, which is going to be much more accurate as temperature control, and so much less likely to scorch than if you're using an open flame
+
+[40:46] burner and a pen, especially, you know, I don't know, you know, how good the temperature, you know, conduction is there,
+
+[40:52] but, um, anyway, uh, 225, you should actually be okay. It shouldn't actually burn if at 225, if you if you have good temperature control at the bottom of the pan. And I know this because I've been trying to test out caramelization of sugars and fruits in pressure
+
+[41:13] cookers at temperatures well in excess of that without burning. And so you should be able to do it. So I would, I would use an induction pan that's got very accurate temperature control to prevent scorching and maybe go
+
+[41:26] slow. Uh, and, you know, she asks at the end, she has a circular immersion circulator. she do it in a water bath? Now, there's no way to get a water bath up to um, up to 225 unless you put it under pressure, but then you're, you're, you're ruining the whole point of boiling it isn't the
+
+[41:44] temperature, actually. It's at a certain temperature, you've gotten rid of enough water that when it cools down, it'll have enough solids.
+
+[41:51] So if you do something in a water bath, you're not boiling the water off. And any of these pectin and candy recipes with sugar are basically requiring that you remove a certain amount of water. And the way that you guarantee that you've removed it is by reaching a certain temperature at atmospheric pressure. Now, you could, I've never tried this actually. You could maybe do a very low temperature Pat Fui in in a Roto app. It's kind of an interesting question. You know what I mean? Like, if you evaporate the water off of, uh, off of, uh, you know, uh, you know, a mixture under vacuum, I should be
+
+[42:29] able. I never thought of this before. Crap, this might work. Yeah, like we could do a low temperature in one of these because the peck needs to make it to a certain temperature to work, right? So it needs to get up to at least regular boiling, but I could take something to regular boiling, then throw it in
+
+[42:45] the Rota app. I can set the road of avid boiling, right? Does all the pectin in it, right? And then and then evaporate off the water. And I know exactly how much, I know how much water because I can look up, I know, seriously,
+
+[42:56] like, I can figure out, like, what my finished total solid, solid content. Pectin is one of these, uh, Pectin's a hydrocolloid. It's natural. been using it for, you know, since there's been fruit, we've been using pectin. I don't want to hear that chemicals or any crap like that. Uh, pectin's great, but standard pectins that you use for these kinds of things,
+
+[43:12] pet fui. They, they, uh, 1st of all, they need to be heated up, uh, to, I think, to boiling or roughly there, close to there, to work properly. But also, they require 2 things, acidity, and high soluble solids. They need, and what that means is something like sugar that's going to bind all the water that's left there so that the
+
+[43:30] gel, so that the pectin gels and forms a good thing. That's why if you try to make a jelly and there's not enough acid, it doesn't work and why you like, you know, you always add not just for flavor to make it tart, but to make it work. And why if you don't cook your jelly long enough, it's not going to set, right? That's how pectin works. Caramel is, on the other hand, or basically just solidifying sugar by removing water, or, you know, candies, rather, caramel, you're actually breaking
+
+[43:52] breaking the sugar down. Anyway, that's basically how it works. But I should be able to do a pecked in, right? At a much lower temperature using a standard pectin and eroto vap, making an uncooked thing with traditional pectin. Maybe I'll try it. Of course, you know, you can use, you can use different kinds of pectins and get the same effect without having to go to such high soluble solids using a kind of
+
+[44:14] pectin called LMA Lomathoxy amidated pectin, which, you know, whatever, but most people don't have access to that. Of course, most people don't have access to a rotor app either. So what the hell am I talking about? Okay. We should tell people that you're teaching a class on the 28th for high-tech cocktails at the school. They're interested. I am? Yes, you are. When? The July 28th. Okay, July 28th, Nils Norin, the head of the whole Magilla at the French
+
+[44:41] Culinary Institute, and I are cooking a teaching a high-tech cocktail class for the public. Yeah, for the public. And basically what you do is you come to the French culinary institute and we'll do, you know, like 2 or 2 or 3 cocktails that, you know, that you can't possibly do at home using like
+
+[44:58] a using a rotary evaporator and liquid nitrogen. Well, you could. if you're Nathan Mirvold, you could do anything at home. But, you know, we use most of you can't do at home. And then we're going to actually teach you some technology that you can use. Like, for instance, how to clarify lime juice in 20 minutes. And this is something we do. It actually, you know, that technique is exactly one year one year old. Yeah, cool. Anyway, so yeah, come go to www.frenchculinary.com and you can look up that class. Um, you know, that's uh, we're actually headed back there. We got a lot of cocktail tests to do back at the French culinary. I'm slightly, I have to say, I'm slightly disappointed that nobody called in to claim their pork. I enjoyed all your email questions. Please send more email questions, but if you can call in live, it gives me the opportunity to speak to you, which I enjoy. you know, I like talking over the phone. This is why I never answer emails, but I do speak over the phone if you can reach me. So next week, we're going to be here live again. With Harold McGee. with Harold McGee. Harold McGee will be our telephone guest. He's not going to be live in the studio, but he's going to call in and he'll be here answering your questions as well. So if you don't care what I have to say about your questions. Perhaps you will care about what Harold McGee has to say about your questions. And next week, the number will be the same. 718-497-2128. Cooking issues today has been brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier, a free range, all natural, grass
+
+[46:23] vet, and grass finished beef. I'm Dave Arnold, and this is cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[46:32] Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] My name's Mackenzie, and I started to GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a
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+[0:05] nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back
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+[0:19] bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.
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+[0:46] GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200000000 people. Start your GoFundMe today at goFundMe.com. That's goFundMe.com, goFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe.
+
+[1:05] Vicious fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight. You are listening to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold and we're coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network. The show cooking issues, the show where you call in, and we solve your cooking issues related or not. Today, cooking issues is sponsored by Acme Smoked Fish, located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Acme has been a mainstay in New York's culinary landscape for over 55 years. Using old world recipes, acne produces the finest smoked salmon, whitefish, and sable that discerning palates demand. For information on where to find Acme, Blue Hill Bay, or Ruby Bay products, visit www.acmeesmokefish.com. And they actually supply most of the most of the big places in the city. So even if you don't know, you've had Acme, you've probably had Acme. Now, the number to call into the radio show, we're here between 12 and 1245 every Tuesday is 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 and we already have our 1st caller for the day. Hello? We got we got Jordan on the line. I'm right here. Hey, how you doing? So what's your question? Hey, I'm doing pretty well. Um, you know, so, uh, I want to throw a barbecue for my wife's
+
+[2:45] birthday, and I've been experimenting with, uh, just basically trying to cook ribs in a sous
+
+[2:53] vide. I got a sous vide supreme. Um, so I've been experimenting cooking the ribs in that. Um, trying to get them to the point where they're like, where they're fairly soft and yielding, and at the same time, they'll stay on the bone, because
+
+[3:07] my, my plan is to basically keep them, in the machine until guests arrive, and then I just want to finish them on the grill. right? Right. That's a that's a good call. May I just say before we go any further that you are in luck for being the 1st caller today, you have won some heritage
+
+[3:23] foods, boneless barbecue riblets. So, yeah, no kidding. that should go, that should go pretty, you know, pretty well with your barbecue. But so here's the thing. So typically when we're going to do a rib, you can do a rib at any temperature between about 544 Celsius, which is rare, I wouldn't recommend that because it's kind of
+
+[3:42] weird. People aren't used to it. All the way up to traditional temperature of like 80, but I would recommend something closer to 60. It's a little bit pink on the inside still, but it's, you know, it's really, it's a good, nice temperature. And the good thing about cooking this way, and what we're talking about is low temperature cooking, for those of you not aware, what we're doing is we're sealing the food in a
+
+[4:03] bag, and we're using a water bath, they very accurately keep the temperature and cook it for a long time. Now, what are the advantages of doing it this way as opposed to traditional that we've talked about, you know, the advantage you want? He said, the meat's going to stay on the bone. It's not going to shred and break apart. So you'll be able, even though it's very tender, and 60, I would do it for about 48 hours, 48 to 56 hours in that range. Okay, that's the part I was having trouble with is I've got, uh, you know, I was looking at some stuff from Baldwin and uh, a couple other things online and everybody was saying, oh yeah, you know, 12 to 24 hours pops for the ribs and I just, they weren't coming out where I wanted them, but all, you said 60
+
+[4:40] Celsius? 60, yeah, what temperature are we? About one, about 140. Well, 140. 60 is like a magic number because it's 140. easy to remember. What temperature were you using? Oh, I tried everything between about 135 to 155. But the factor that I was not getting right was the time to cook, and I was afraid if I left it that long, I was afraid if I left it, uh, you know, 48 hours or more, I was concerned, number one, that I was going to lose some structural integrity in the bone itself, and and number two, I was just, I was concerned it just wasn't going to stay on the bones, but you're saying that even at 48 hours, it's going to stick to the bone enough that I can toss on
+
+[5:22] the, on the grill, it's not going to fall into the rack. Absolutely. Let me, let me put you this way, and we'll leave it, leave it at this. Right or wrong. After 24 hours, it had the texture of skirt steak. Yeah, right? Is that right? After 24 hours, they should have had the texture right about a skirt steak. And after another 24 to 30 hours, it'll have the texture of short ribs. Okay, yeah, that's that's much closer to what I'm looking for. Yeah, all right, super, look at, uh, stay on the line because we got to figure out a way to get you these, uh, these boneless barbecue
+
+[5:50] riblets. And thanks so much for calling in. I think we already have we already have another caller. So we're doing well. All right, so hello? Hello? Hey. I have some questions about preserving cilantro. Essentially, every single time I buy it, it seems to turn into an unusable pile of mush and all the
+
+[6:08] aromatics, just leave it pretty much right away. So I was wondering if there's a way to render it more stable. I don't have a roto app or anything. So I'm looking for a more conventional method. Right. Cilantro, actually, even in the Rotovac, when you wrote a vap, it doesn't stay stable. This is actually an interesting question.
+
+[6:24] The next segment we have, Harold McGee's going to be on. He's done a lot of tests with preserving things like herbs and berries. My guess, the problem is, is that my guess is the way to do it is
+
+[6:35] going to be like a quick blanch and shock, but that's probably not what you're what you're looking for. And the other one would be to keep the moisture level, not too high. So it's not going to rot, you know, uh, uh, Yeah. Oh, yeah, so you're drying it still... Yeah, you dry with a paper towel. I mean, you could physically dry, but it's not the same as fresh. I'm gonna, what I'm gonna do is I'm going to defer this question and Nastasia's going to remind me to ask McGee. Nastasia going to ask me to remind McGee to answer this question, but I would guess he's going to, he's going to say something of the nature of making sure air can get to it in your fridge so it's not going to turn bad, making sure that it's not wet when it goes in.
+
+[7:12] He might say something even like allowing water to get to the stems, but I don't know. And he might suggest something like a blanch just to kill anything that's on it, which is what he does with berries. This is not my, like, not my exact area of expertise, but you're lucky that McGee's going to be calling in today because it's right up his
+
+[7:27] alley. we'll make sure to ask him. Okay, well actually, just beyond erotic. I mean, also the aromatics on the plant are just so fleeting. It seems like no matter what you do to it, that they're just gonna leave pretty much right away. I know, it's true. know, I've been doing a lot of experiments recently with, you know, when you, when we wrote a vap, a lot of times I wrote a vap, uh, for those of you who don't know, low temperature distillation, we do it in a road
+
+[7:46] evaporator. We do it with alcohol just because it's the only way to really lock down those aromatics. And when you do it with water, you really, those aromatics, they leave very
+
+[7:54] quickly. We've recently been doing experiments with freezing with liquid nitrogen to try and keep those aromatics and it works pretty well. But, you know, I'm not ready to necessarily make any statements on it. Do you have liquid nitrogen lying around? No, I don't, but that doesn't mean I couldn't get some. Right. I mean, you could try. I mean, like that might be good, keeping it ultra frozen like that. Now it's going to go black as soon as it thaws out unless you blanch it beforehand, but then you won't have the
+
+[8:18] aromatic. So you're always going to, you're always going to trade because we do a lot of work with liquid nitrogen where we powder fresh herbs. When you powder the fresh herbs when they thaw, even when you look at nitrogen, they go black because you've ruptured
+
+[8:28] the when you blend them, you rupture the tissues. And so they go black and they get that characteristic not so good aroma. So what we'll always do is blanch in boiling water
+
+[8:38] and shock, and then that'll preserve it. But you're still, you're going to lose some of that. I mean, I haven't, again, I'll ask McGee this, but, you know, it's very hard to get that fresh off of the plant kind of kind of a flavor, but this
+
+[8:50] is, I'll bring up both of these things with McGee, because I know he thinks a lot about this, specifically this problem, especially because he grows his own stuff because he lives in California,
+
+[8:57] you know? So I apologize. I'm going to have to defer to later in this segment, but we'll get an answer for you. Does that sound good? Wait, who am I speaking to, by the way? My name's Chris. Hey, Chris, thanks for calling in. We'll get some answers for you before the hour is done. Also, I just had a quick question about the sous vide coffee. I've been just taking my coffee brows and putting him into a bag and basically doing a high
+
+[9:18] duration, low temperature, like around 68 C. Similar to like Kyoto? So higher than like a cold coffee, higher than Kyoto sal coffee. Yeah, much higher than cold coffee. But, you know, it sort of doesn't leach out all the astringency or anything like that, provided you don't do it for 2 days.
+
+[9:34] Yeah, how do you like it? I like it a lot, actually. It seems to strike a good balance as far as having a lot of coffee solids in there versus a lot of the nasty stuff that
+
+[9:45] people like. And then you coffee filter it and drink it or what do you do? Right, exactly. I just do a course filtration. Huh. We'll test that out. I've done the cold and I've done a lot of work with, you know, with like espresso type stuff, but I've never done any kind of in between work. We've done it with tea. We've never done it with coffee. That's interesting. You know, you should post something to our forums and let's get a discussion going on that. Now, I'll try and, you know, at www.cookingissues.com forward slash forums. Post something like that because, you know, I think that's interesting. I'm sure a lot of the people, you know, troll around, will think that's interesting too. Maybe we can get something started, huh? Alright, great. All right, cool. Thanks a lot for calling in. Bye. We have another caller. We do? Oh, hey, we have another caller. Great. Hello. Hey, who am I speaking with? Nathan. Hey, Nathan. So I had a question. I remember a post you made a couple, couple months ago, I guess, on cooking issues about, um, how carbonation was
+
+[10:41] perceived, and you mentioned sort of offhand that you tried stuff that was carbonated or not carbonated, but force, force gas,
+
+[10:47] with NO2. wondering about other gases that you've tried dissolving in liquids and what that tasted like. All right, well, you know, uh, N2O nitrous and CO2 are the 2 readily available gases
+
+[11:01] that um, that are soluble to a large degree in water. I don't, and also alcohol, uh, and also CO2 is very soluble in alcohol. And also, I don't know about CO2, but N2O. I guess CO2 as well. Also soluble liquid fats. So these are, um, you know, they're very soluble, which is why you can put a lot of it in and why you can get a big effect.
+
+[11:22] Other gases, you know, other ones that I know of that, you know, our food grade aren't as soluble. So you're not going to get the same kind of, now you could definitely get some sort of maybe aroma or flavor out of putting some gases in and some noxious gases can clearly go in. But I haven't experimented with any other gases because basically, you know, you get the effect of carbonation, which is what I'm looking for out of the CO2. And then we use the nitrous as a as kind of a balancing act. So if I want a lively beverage, I want a lot of bubbles in
+
+[11:53] it, and the number of bubbles in it is determined by the total pressure dissolved gas in it, because that's what's determining how fast it's bubbling, right? And also the bubble size for giving liquid and a bunch of other things. But if you added that much CO2, it would rip your face off, you know, your nose would be, you know, we've had, I like actually
+
+[12:10] overcarbonated things, but, you know, but I like my face being ripped off. But the thing is, is in order to make it a really lively beverage, but more mellow,
+
+[12:18] we add the N2O. The side effect of the N2O is that it's sweet, right? Now, there are situations, like I'm sure people have heard of beer gas. So beer gas is a mixture of CO2 and straight nitrogen. And the reason that they put the nitrogen in is because they want to keep their kegs at a high pressure so that they can push beer out at a reasonable rate. But they don't want to increase the bubble load by adding too much CO2. So they're adding a relatively insoluble gas, right? nitrogen to it so that it can so that it basically just adds extra pressure. I believe also it's nitrogen and not CO2 that's in the Guinness widget that's sitting in
+
+[12:57] the in the bottom of a Guinness. And I think what's going on there is they're literally just forcing some bubbles into it to create kind of a creamy
+
+[13:03] head, even though they're not increasing the actual total amount of CO2 in it, right?
+
+[13:08] So there are reasons to use other other gases, but I don't know anything that would help necessarily in a carbonation setting. Do you have any ideas of things you wanted to try? No, I was just wondering, because you said, you know, CO2 is kind of sour
+
+[13:22] tasting, and 2O is kind of sweet tasting if there were any other things that would sort of give you other
+
+[13:27] flavors, obviously. I'm sure we could put some, you know, sulfur containing gases in that would dissolve in just fine, but it would make it taste
+
+[13:35] god awful. You know what I mean? But I haven't, I haven't, uh, you know, maybe someone will, you know, call in or post
+
+[13:41] uh, something they think is uh, good to try, but they're the 2 readily available food grade gases that dissolve
+
+[13:47] to uh, a fairly uh, large degree into, into your, you know, into beverages. So those are the ones that's why we use them. Gotcha cool. All right, thank you very much. Thanks for calling in. All right. So that brings us pretty close. I'm going to talk about one thing before we go to our 1st break, but coming up on the next right after the next break, Harold McGee is going to be here. Hes going to help us answer, answer some questions. One thing I wanted to address. We had an email question. Oh, for your calls, by the way, please call into 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, so we had a really interesting question coming by email, and don't worry, all the email questions we'll get to, so don't worry if I'm not doing yours first. Someone called in Matt, how do you pronounce Matt's name? Hassa, Hass, Hassa, Hass, Hass, Hass. His restaurant group is using someone who grows their own cattle and is using ultrasound to check the marbling of the meat while
+
+[14:47] they're alive. So basically you're taking a cow. They're putting an ultrasound on the cow, and they're trying to measure the fat content of the cow. So the idea is trying to get a higher percentage of prime marbled meat than
+
+[14:59] you otherwise would. Instead, he had never heard about this technique before, and he wanted to know something about it, know about these guys running
+
+[15:08] tests. This is kind of, I don't know how well, I don't know how often it's used nowadays, but using ultrasound to test the fat level of
+
+[15:16] animals has fairly long history. They've been doing it since at least the 80s. And there's a bunch of different ways. So basically, lean muscle meat and fat have different properties for
+
+[15:29] ultrasound. The speed of ultrasound, ultrasound is just basically any sound wave faster than you can
+
+[15:34] hear than you can hear over about 20,000 cycles per second. And it can penetrate through tissue, which is why they use it to check for babies, for
+
+[15:42] ultrasounds and for medical diagnostic stuff. They can take pictures of it. But even simply without an image. You can tell based on the speed that the ultrasound is going through, whether it's going through more fat or more lean. You could tell because fat also reflects ultrasounds in different ways. It also can, I think, shift the frequency as it goes to. So there's several different techniques. they can use with ultrasounds to take a live animal in a very quick, you know, easy-to-do way out in the field with a piece of machinery and take a picture and figure out, um, figure out kind of
+
+[16:15] a best guess as to what the, uh, tech, you know, the inside of the muscles like in terms of its fat content. And for, in general, there's a lot of interesting work being done with ultrasounds. And a review paper you might be interested in is ultrasonic innovations in the food industry from the laboratory to commercial productions by Alec, Alex
+
+[16:35] Patist, Et all. And that was in what journal? The journal for innovative food science and emerging technologies in July 2007. Thanks for calling in. Please post a question to the blog on that. I'm interested in talking about ultrasound and meat quality more. And this is our 1st break. You're listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. One, two, three.
+
+[17:11] Let me tell you the new.
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+[17:21] Everybody, Everybody, everything new Yeah, everybody.
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+[17:36] It ain't just song. Yeah,
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+[17:46] so. This chapter is the man. Just the rhythm man. Come here.
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+[18:03] Hey, babe. Look, sound cool. Hey,
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+[18:15] baby.
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+[18:25] You're too sharp. One more time. Head too sharp. Get too sharp. Good tattoos. Let me dance. I want a friend Got the talk. Just let me walk. Got
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+[19:27] Hey, too, too, too, too. I wanna dance. I've got the dance, I wanna feel, love. You know it's another... Give it to me.
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+[19:58] Riblets. Hello. Steve Arnold, you are listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with your cooking
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+[20:07] issues, and if we're lucky, we get to solve them. Our number here is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 and we're coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 Eastern Standard
+
+[20:23] Time. And we have a real treat today because calling in as our call in guest is Harold McGee. And Harold McGee, for those of you that don't know. There's probably a couple of you that don't know, is the ultimate
+
+[20:35] all-time master blaster of science as it relates to delicious things in the kitchen. So not industrial science, but the science of how to make things taste better. And he's calling in from San Francisco. Harold, you there? I am Dave. Hey, good to talk to you. How you doing? Likewise, pretty well, thanks. How about you? Yeah, I'm doing well, doing well. So, uh, actually, you know, uh, Harold, we have a caller calling in right now, so you want to just, uh, you want to just take their question real
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+[20:59] quick and then we'll, uh, then we'll hit some of the email questions we've got. Sure. All righty. So who do we have? We have Derek on the line. Hi, Dave. Hey. Great to talk to both of you. Big fans, both you, Dave and Harold. I was thinking the other day, um, would it, would you get more flavor out of your stocks if you started with distilled
+
+[21:22] water because it tends to, it pulls in stuff such as carbon dioxide? Would it be more? Would it pull in more flavor from whatever meat or what you were using as the base? You think? Harold, what do you think? I wouldn't think you'd get much of an effect because it's going to become non-distilled water pretty quick as soon as you put stuff into
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+[21:41] it and you typically, uh, I mean, what do you think, Harold? Uh, I agree completely. Yeah, there's, I mean, it's, it's, it's distilled and nice and pure, but the moment you put anything in it, It's not. And the difference between, I think, you know, a few parts per 1000000 of minerals in tap
+
+[22:00] water and distilled water, by the time you've made the stock is not going to be detectable. I mean, maybe it depends also on how hard your particular water is. I mean, the, the, you know, the Japanese chefs insist that there's a huge difference in combo stocks, uh, if, if the water is excessively hard and they, so they say that, you know, the European water, it's hard for them to make a
+
+[22:22] good, uh, combo stocks, so they use, uh, bottled water. And of course, for beer brewing, it's important, but I just, I don't, I don't know that for regular stock. Right, Harold, I mean, wouldn't you think? I mean. Yeah, the thing about kombu is that it's so delicate and you're extracting for a relatively short period of time, you know, just a few
+
+[22:42] minutes and so I think, uh, you know, something where you're throwing in meat bones and vegetables and cooking for
+
+[22:49] hours. It's gonna be much less important. Of course, you know, if you do the experiment, you taste them blind and you, you know, get back to us, we'll post it because they, you know, there's
+
+[22:59] no, I always say that, you know, whatever I think is, you know, secondary to what you actually observe when you do it. Awesome. All right, exactly. All right, thank you. Well, thanks so much for calling in. And before we go to anyone else, Harold. I don't know if you heard before. We had someone calling you and wanted to preserve the kind of the aromatics in cilantro. And I've said that you might be the best person to talk to about the best way to keep cilantro in top condition to try and make it smell like you just took it out of your
+
+[23:27] garden. Do you have any tips on that? Boy, it's tough with fresh herbs because those flavor compounds are really fugitive and the cells are
+
+[23:37] delicate and when they dry out, you know, everything gets scrambled up inside the cells. And in the case of cilantro, you know, the
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+[23:45] more that you beat it up. If you try to make a pesto, for example, the flavor actually becomes much milder. And so what you want to do, I think, probably is just dry it as gently as possible, just to minimize the damage to the
+
+[24:03] cells. Right. He says he was doing it with a paper towel. But also I think people store it too tightly a wrap. You almost want those like those bags that allow air to go through them, right? Because I think he's also having loss in the refrigerator. I think he said they were turning brown and kind of muddy, you know, what do you think? Well, yeah, I think, you know, if it's a matter of keeping it alive, you know, by preserving, I thought you meant, you know, drying or something like that. Uh, uh, if you just want to keep them alive, then, yeah, what I would do is, um, uh, you know, cut the cut the stems to get a fresh, uh, end, and then put them in a glass of water, and then put a bag around the glass, uh, you know, put a rubber band around the bag, and that gives you,
+
+[24:47] it prevents the, the cilantro from drying out in the refrigerator, keeps them cool, gives them
+
+[24:52] a supply of water. They're not going to be happy in the dark, so that won't last forever, but it's better than nothing. And there you go. There's the answer from the source. We got another interesting one that I think is up your alley. Harold, uh, Jeff Saltz writes in, wrote to Nastasia, uh, you know, we had take email questions as well, and says, if we can whip cream with sugar and we can whip egg yolks with sugar, Then why can't we whip crème anglaise? And just to verify this morning, before we came out to the show, I tried to whip some creme anglaise, and indeed, it does not whip. Um, you know, I also know that there's some problems. Sometimes people have problems whipping even straight cream that's been heated. I mean, what do you think? What do you think's going on here? Well, in the case of the crème anglaise, uh, it's true that uh, cream can be can be whipped and egg yolks and egg whites can both be whipped into a
+
+[25:41] foam. But that's true of the raw versions of those things. Creme Anglaise has been cooked. So, uh, and in the case of cream, whipped cream, it only whips if it's cold.
+
+[25:54] So the conditions aren't right. The proteins have been denatured and the temperature is wrong. But I didn't, I mean, I took the crème anglaise and cooled it down to like back to fridge temperature, still doesn't whip. There's something about heating cream and then cooling it that
+
+[26:09] made, do you need to wait a long time? What are you disrupting in cream that stops it from whipping like that? Boy, with cream, all by itself. I mean, in a creme anglaise, of course, the cream is the surfaces of the oil droplets are going to get coated by the egg
+
+[26:25] proteins and by, you know, whatever else you might have in there, sugars in the way, so it's just going to make it much more difficult. In the case of just plain old cream, heating it and then cooling it back down, offhand, I can't see why that
+
+[26:38] would make it harder to whip. Yeah, I mean, I've never done an experiment myself, but I know people who have done it and said that they were able to do
+
+[26:46] it and I've known people who've done it and said that they weren't able to do it. So I don't know, I don't know where that is, but... Well, I know that, you know, the fat inside the droplet takes a while to get organized again after it's been
+
+[27:02] heated. You know, you heat it up, it becomes molten inside. And then as you chill it down, it begins to crystallize. And I think, you know, maybe, maybe just takes a while for you to get that, the optimum crystal structure so that when you whip it, the, the edges of the crystals break through the membrane and begin to stick to each other and
+
+[27:22] and you get a good phone. That makes sense, almost like the theory of aging ice cream base. Right. Yeah, yeah. All right, Jeff, well, I hope that answers your question. Let me see, whether we have anything. Ah, here's one that Harold, you'll enjoy. Val called in and said, I love the radio show. I'm traveling to Turkey in 3 weeks. I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions as to where I could find some good celeb
+
+[27:48] donderma flour in Turkey. And for those of you that know, like part of the current interest in celeb here in the United States is due to an article that Harold wrote a number of years ago in
+
+[28:01] the New York Times on stretchy ice creams. And Celeb is an orchid powder that is available in Turkey, but can't be exported because it's not that it's
+
+[28:10] endangered, but they just don't have enough. They don't allow exports of it. And if you add this to ice cream and then beat the ice cream vigorously, it forms a stretchy, stretchy ice cream. It's kind of unlike any other ice cream and it's a traditional kind of product over there, but I don't know of any, I don't, never been to Turkey. I've only ever had it smuggled back for me. What about you? Harold? you know of any? I've never been to Turkey either. So, um, yeah, I don't I really don't know. Yeah, there are a couple of people who, um, uh, who blog, who are, who know the, the, Turkey in the Middle East in general really well and who blog, and you
+
+[28:46] might uh, check their sites and ask them, uh, one of them is Aneesa Helu, A-N-I-S-S-A-H-E-L-O-U. I forget the, the, uh, the name of her site, but, uh, she knows that part of the world really, really well, and she could probably give you some good advice. Right. And it's important to get a good source because different salad powders are very different in how much of the active principle they have in it.
+
+[29:11] And, you know, also, like they sell some, it's just meant for drinks and it doesn't necessarily have the same capability to make ice cream
+
+[29:19] stretchy. The 2 times I had were smuggled back by interns and they just, you know, they packed it. One time, though, my intern's mom got stopped in the airport for coming from Turkey with, you know, a vacuum bag thing of, you know, kind of powder and spent 3 hours talking to, you know, a very irate
+
+[29:38] customers official about how it was not any sort of drug product, but they were trying to bring back in. And it didn't, you know, it didn't make it in. But, you know, I would get as much as you can as you can. You're going to use anywhere from half to one% in your recipe so that that gives you any idea of how much you need to buy. And they'll ask one more question. What would the results be with salad ice cream if you froze it and spun it in a pocket jet? Alas, this will not work. The Paco jet, I've never had any love trying to pocket jet it. It needs to be manually beaten after it's frozen, you need to manually
+
+[30:09] freeze it, freeze it and then manually beat it. And that's the only way to get that texture. Would you agree, Harold, or no? Yeah, that's right. Paco Jet is great for a lot of things, but what it's basically doing is chopping the mixture into tiny little bits.
+
+[30:24] And that's the absolute reverse of what you want to do with salap ice cream. You want to create this network, like a gluten network and bread dough. And that's what gives, gives it that wonderful stretchy quality. All right, all right. So we're about to go out to our 2nd break. Before we do, I'm gonna give you the number to call in one more time. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're coming back with Harold McGee. This is cooking issues. You got the highest speakers, huh? And you're slipping new. You're more than all right. You know you're out of sight. Got a shapeless figure, Mama. Let's keep me uptight. Gotta shapely figure, Mama. Keep me uptight Too much. You know you're on sight. Hey, the way you do the thing you do. Will you kiss me too? The way you do the thing you do. The way you kiss my teeth. My heart delight, that's what you are. You know you're out of sight.
+
+[32:00] You daughter sweet disposition. Oh, going right. You've got a sweet disposition. You know you're always fine. Know just what you're doing, baby. You know you're outside.
+
+[32:29] You're in. You saw him, baby. You were listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network, I am Dave Arnold. I'm here in the studio with Nastasia Lopez, and on the telephone, we have Harold McGee. So you have one last chance to call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 and I'll sweeten up the pot. We will give away another packet of riblets if you call in. Anyway, so Harold, we have a couple more email questions we have to get through. So why don't we take care of those. She. We had someone Colin actually last week or right in last week who's interested in kind of Doug Baldwin's formula for calculating the calculating when meat is
+
+[33:21] going to be done. And I know you've done some work on it. So Douglas Baldwin has this kind of rather complex, well, not for him because he's a math professor, but complex formula for determining the, you know, the heat
+
+[33:34] of, you know, when meat's going to get to it. But what do you, what do you think's the best thing is? I think the best thing is, is just cook a couple of things and get a feel for the size of thing and then just
+
+[33:44] go, go that way? What do you think? Yeah, I agree. It is true that you can calculate how long it's going to take for something to heat up in a water bath, and it takes a lot longer than you think, because the, the difference between the temperature of the bath and the temperature of the food is relatively small, and that means that, you know, there's, there's not much of a, uh,
+
+[34:10] and uh, a push behind the heat on the outside, get to the inside. So it takes takes quite a while. But, you know, the calculations rate, they can't account for all the variables that you're going to encounter like variations in the thickness of the meat and the, uh, you know, the effect of the wrapping, whether
+
+[34:30] if the, if the wrap isn't, isn't perfectly sealed. If you've got a couple of bubbles here and there, it's going to slow things down. So I agree the best thing to do is just to have several packages and check every once in a while, give them a
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+[34:44] good, good long time and maybe use the formulas as a guide. But test it. Yeah, I've never had really much of a need to know exactly how long it's going to take. But also, Nathan Mirvold posted a bunch of things a number of years back on E-Gullet. Oh, I see we have another have another caller. Who do we have on the line? Hello? Hello? Yeah, hi, how you doing? I'm a chef working on the east coast and I have a couple of questions about sous vide cookery. Um, and so couples specific situations we're in right now that we're trying to kind of fine tune, right? I don't want to mention anything specific because we're still kind of operating under the radar. Right, right. Um, so right now we're uh, working with a couple different cuts of meat. Some have been really successful. Some were still trying to, you know, they're very good, but they still could be a lot better. Right now, we're working with a a thick cut pork chop, which is kind of cut from the shoulder end, so it has a high fat content.
+
+[35:43] And, um, you know, we try cooking it around 52, 54 degrees Celsius or anywhere between 4 hours, 12
+
+[35:51] hours up to 24 hours. And the problem is that, you know, the fat isn't breaking down in
+
+[35:57] an appealing way. You know, we used to cook it conventionally, and I'm more of a hot oven, and we get like a nice sort of caramelization on the fat. Um, and it would be very pal- palatable. And, uh, you know, at those, those low temperatures, it would just kind of be like hammy and and, you know, just not have a nice mouth feel. So we upped the temp up to 70 degrees and we ran it. We ran it with a thermocoupler, uh, just to check the tamp, we'd pull it at like 54 degrees. And that was better. Yeah, but still, that's still high, right? Exactly. Yeah, it was still a little like, it got a little hammy. Um, you know, it wasn't perfect. Then we brought it down to 64 degrees. Um and that was kind of a nice, you know, medium. We're kind of happy with that and we just basically would run it in the thermocoupler till we hit, you know, 54 degrees Celsius.
+
+[36:44] So I just wondering, yeah, I was wondering if you had any comments on that or any ideas of instructions we can
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+[36:49] go. So low temp, that's not going to really render out when you're cooking low temp. And that's kind of one of the main things to work around when you're doing this kind of work. And in fact, you know, Harold will agree, like that's one of the things, you know, you don't particularly like some of these dishes because we don't get things like the, like the rendering of fat, but I'll give you a, a
+
+[37:06] Green Herald or no? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, one technique you might want to look into. First of all, are you doing a pre-seer on your meat or no? No, we haven't tried that yet. I would do a pre-seer on the meat that's going to start getting the flavor
+
+[37:18] going. And also you notice you're going to pick up a lot more color a lot quicker on the finish. But you might do something we do called low temp for insurance purposes. And so what that is, is you cook the meat to like a medium,
+
+[37:32] like you want the inside to be whatever you want it to be, you know, 50
+
+[37:37] inch, 50 high 50s in change or like 60 somewhere in there, right? You cook it through, then you chill the whole thing down. Then you throw it in a blazing hot oven, right? Now you're just focused on the external texture of the of the chop and and and you can pull it as soon as it looks good because the inside's already been cooked and it's going to be warm enough.
+
+[37:55] And so this way you can serve something where you get a lot of the benefits, reproducibility, you know, fairly quick turnaround
+
+[38:02] time on a pork chop, that you would and get more of a traditional flavor out of it,
+
+[38:07] uh, where, you know, but still get some of the benefits of low temperature. And so this works a lot on bigger, bigger cuts or things like
+
+[38:15] that where you basically, you just want to ensure that the inside is done. So we call that kind of low temperature for insurance purposes. And so you might want to look into something like that. Like, just cook it through to the lowest temperature you want, cool it
+
+[38:26] down, and then, you know, take it from normal in a hot, hot oven and just get that outside where you want
+
+[38:31] it. And I think you might be happy with the results because a lot of times we want a more traditional tasting, especially on something like a pork chop. What do you think, Harold? Yep, sounds good. I have nothing to add. And definitely like with the, at the 64 degrees, it's actually, it's it's great. It's really, really good, but we just, you know, we want to see if we're missing anything, and if we can try and take it to a higher level, which, this sounds like something we're definitely going to try. Yeah, I'd be careful with the lower temps like 5254. Here's why. I mean, will you kill bacteria down there? Yeah, probably. But one of the issues is when you load up a circulator and you hit those fairly low temperatures, if the circulator is crowded at all, sometimes the pieces of meat that are near each
+
+[39:16] other, they'll be shielded from the temperature for long enough at those low temperatures that you'll get lactic acid bacteria growing in. So if you look in the people who post on sous vide, you'll notice people saying, oh, my thing smelled like sauerkraut. My things smell like blue cheese. And it's because they're not killing the lactic acid bacteria fast enough.
+
+[39:33] So when you're doing those low, low temperatures, I would recommend a quick dunk of the bag
+
+[39:37] into maybe into simmering water just to kill all the lactic acid bacteria that are on the outside.
+
+[39:44] And, um, and then, and then go from there is another thing. If you're having that problem. I know that some people are having that that problem. And just real quick. I know you guys are allowed to cover, but do you have any sort of guideline basic temperatures that you work with in your laboratory just
+
+[40:02] for, for, you know, for poultry, let's say, game meat, you know, stuff that, you know, things like that. What's your braising temperature? What's your, um, I do a lot of braises at 60. Because the lower ones, I think, are, you know, people don't really, people don't really,
+
+[40:18] they want their braises much lower than that. And when I go higher than about 63. I start feeling like I'm losing the advantage, 63,64. I start losing the advantages of low temperature. So I tend to stay in that range. But the best, we have cooking charts. If you go to cookingissues.com and look up low temp charts. There's a chart that has basically all of our temperatures on it. temperatures and times that we work with. Yeah, and that's that's pretty that's pretty up to date. So I would check that out. And then let me just knock something out real quick, Harold, before, because I want to talk to you something about, because Harold and I are actually going to go to Tales of the Cocktail. Oh, wait, we have another caller, so I can't talk about Tales of the Cocktail. All right, we have another caller coming in, Harold. Hello? Okay. How you doing? How are you, man? All right. I'm here to ask you a question. All right. So I knew you guys were talking sous vide, but I don't have a sous vide at home. Right. But I do have an oven. Okay. So my entree into kind of the technical side of cooking has been to kind of fudge it at
+
+[41:20] home. I'm trying to, uh, I brine my meat usually before I roast it. So are you familiar with this river cottage meat book? Yes. So in the river cottage meat book, he'll talk about how he describes a
+
+[41:34] 2 part roasting process, one at like 425 and then it comes down, 50, 75 degrees for like the longer roasts to cook through, you know, to make the
+
+[41:45] crust and then to cook the meat through. So, but I found at home, after
+
+[41:53] brining, that it didn't work, what I've been doing, is roasting a chicken. The whole time at the same temperature. So I wanted to know what, what you guys thought about that, about that 2 temperature versus one temperature and about that
+
+[42:07] process because I've been, you know, getting a good, brown on the meat and cooking it all the way through with a lot, you know, the more technique I applied to it, the worse the results got. Alright, Harold, I'm going to let you take this one because you focus a lot on these kinds of techniques specifically with
+
+[42:24] ovens. I'm going to let you I'm going to let you take this guy. Okay. Well, um, my feeling is that you can, you can get a good result uh, in a lot of different
+
+[42:35] ways. And, um, it just depends on, on the details of what you do
+
+[42:40] and and what you're looking for in the end. So the high temp followed by low temp is, uh, you know, pretty standard, um, way of doing things, uh, gives you that initial blast of high temperature, starts the browning on the surface,
+
+[42:55] and um, then you turn the heat down to cook it through more gently. If you left it at the high temperature too long, then you'd end up overcooking the outside while the inside was still cooking through. But with something like a chicken, which is relatively small, and which cooks relatively quickly, I find that you can get good
+
+[43:15] results with all sorts of techniques. You can stick chicken in at 500 degrees, and it's done really quickly, and it comes out pretty juicy because even though the outside temperature is so high, the rapidity of the cooking means that
+
+[43:32] you end up with a, you know, reasonably juicy inside. You can also cook at a low temperature. When you say that you're cooking at the same temperature constantly, is it, is it like, what, 400 degrees, 370? Oh, four. It's like 353 75 right in there. Yeah, yeah. And your half put it there for like 45 minutes. You're happy with the, with the browning that you get on the, on the skin? It works because I think the brine, the brine, and then the drying after the brine allows it to brown easier. Yeah, yeah. So you, you take it out of the brine and you, what do you do, let, let it sit in the fridge for a day to, to dry out? I brine it overnight and then in the morning, you know, with my cereal, I'll take it out and dry
+
+[44:18] it when I come home, then I make it for dinner. Yeah, so that's the, those are the little details that can make all the difference in the world. If you, if you brine without the drying, then you're going to end up with a soggy chicken at 400 degrees or
+
+[44:31] 375 and you really need that high temperature to bake out the, the moisture and get the browning going. But if you've already pre-dried it, then that's not an issue. And then it forms that kind of pellico, you know, and it gets brown there. The skin gets kind of clear and tacky. My other question to you. is if you're cooking that at 500, really high, really fast. Do you have to rest it, man? Like, is there a tinfoil? Is there, do you have to, I mean, because how does it cook through that fast? Uh, resting, it does, uh, is a good idea, uh, and that's uh, because the, the outside parts of the, of the bird have gotten pretty hot, and it's a chance for the, for the juices to, um, to kind of redistribute, you know, they're, they've been squeezed out, but they haven't exited the, the muscle completely, and so they can kind of settle in and find the, find the dry
+
+[45:26] spots, and uh, and redistribute and give you something more evenly juicy. Okay. Well, thanks, you answered me. I was just feeling guilty, because of the 2 different temperatures versus the one, I felt that somehow I was being
+
+[45:42] unfaithful, and now I realized that the drying made all the difference. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you only owe your faith to a delicious result. Exactly. The proof is in the pudding. All right. Thanks for calling in. And we have very short amount of time. I gotta knock 2 things out with you, Harold. We got a follow-up, and this is right up your alley. Chris, who called him before about the cilantro, just sent us a text saying, I
+
+[46:08] realized I forgot to mention that I've had some luck preventing rot by washing with Aqueous ozone. It's really the stabilization of the flavor itself that I'm after. And he thinks that maybe it's Decan Allen at that he's in it. And it's so, is a quote, it's so Dan fleeting, even in totally unrotten bunches. Anything to say about that home? Ah, well, um, it just speaks to the, uh, the variability among uh, among people and their sensitivity to these uh, aroma compounds because there, there are people
+
+[46:39] who who can't come within uh, a mile of a bunch of cilantro without smelling the, you
+
+[46:45] know, the tiniest quantities. So it may just be that, um, uh, he, uh,
+
+[46:51] is, is, he, he loves the, the aroma, but is less sensitive to it. And so it's going to be harder to find a bunch with enough of the stuff to really make an impact for him. All right, and then we have one quick question that came in. I promise I get to all the early email ones. Scott from your hometown, San Francisco. wants to know how to make a foam to put on top of his dirty martini with an olive brine based on a drink he had at the bazaar in Los
+
+[47:17] Angeles and just wants to know some basic pointers. Can you do it with stuff from the supermarket? Yes, I would get yourself some get yourself some, some, uh, lethesin, granulated kind, and, and or xanthan gum, and or a combination. I would not add any more than about a quarter a percent or so of Xanthan. You can actually add a little more, but I wouldn't have much more, uh, and anything up to about half uh, to 3 quarters of a percent of less than. Put a stick blender into the mixture, hold it at an angle so that the blade of the stick blender is going in and out of the
+
+[47:50] liquid and that's going to cause the bubbling and frothing. And you should be able to get a foam. If not, just post a question to the forums, sort of cooking issues, and we'll answer it. Harold and I are actually going to, in a couple days, actually going to both be in New Orleans. We going to Tales of the Cocktail, which is an event where Harold will be speaking with my good buddy, Tony
+
+[48:12] Cagliaro and good buddies and Audrey Saunders. And then one more cocktail related thing. If you want to come learn high-tech cocktail stuff, including some home friendly things from me personally and Nils, my, my, uh, the head of the French culinary and my partner in crime here, uh,
+
+[48:29] we're doing a class on June 28th at the French Culinary Institute at 6 p.m. Sadly, we were out of time, and I'm really upset because Harold, I had a bunch of interesting stuff to talk to you about with new rotary evaporation breakthroughs that we made just
+
+[48:41] yesterday. But I guess that'll have to, yeah. Turns out I think I might have a way to do really delicious distillations water-based and then add it to alcohol quickly to try and keep the aroma in. I found that like I can, with liquid nitrogen, I can, uh, I
+
+[48:55] can basically, uh, even though water-based distillations are normally, you know, not so flavorful is so
+
+[49:00] fleeting, that if you, if I'd use a cold finger with liquid nitrogen, do my distillation that
+
+[49:05] way, and then immediately melt it into alcohol, that I get a very good result. But I'm still working with it. So I was hoping to talk to you about that on the radio, but alas, we are out of time. So I hope, Harold, I hope you enjoyed calling in. I enjoyed having you. Hopefully you can come again. Anyone who texted Nastasia a little bit later. I'm sorry we didn't get to your questions. We'll get to them next time. And you've been listening to cooking issues on Harris Radio Network brought to you by Acme Smoked Fish. Thank you. Fishes, fish, rock, bro. Oh,
+
+[49:41] you did.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you
+
+[0:13] did, yeah. Got me on this corner, and I don't know. You are listening to cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from noon to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:28] I am Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues. I'm here with Nastasia Lopez. We're from the French Culinary Institute. We're here to answer all of your cooking questions. Call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. For those of you that don't know us, we specialize in technical kinds of cooking questions, pieces of equipment, new techniques, new ingredients, but we were interested
+
+[0:53] in basically any food related question you have. Today's show is brought to you by the fairway markets. No matter where you live in New York City. You're probably pretty close to a fairway market. I believe that we're actually being sponsored by Steve Jenkins from Fairway, who's one of the great cheesemongers in all of the
+
+[1:10] country, probably, that Fairway has and has had for many, many years, an amazing selection of cheeses. Great selection of meats and other produce, Fairway, like no other market. All right, Nastasia. So you want to start off before we answer any questions with kind of what we've been doing over the past week or
+
+[1:25] so? You've been gone for a while. Right. Well, I just got back from New Orleans. New Orleans every year has this event called Tales of the Cocktail, where a good chunk of the bar industry in the United States, heads down to New Orleans in the middle of
+
+[1:38] summer when it's piss hot and humid, and gets horribly, horribly drunk over the course of a couple of days, all in the interest of theoretically learning more about, you know, how to prepare fine
+
+[1:48] drinks and a lot about the history of fine drinks. I was down there doing a seminar called the science of stirring, which was a follow-up to our smash hit last year, the science of shaking. Basically, I was there with Evan Clem, who is the head of beverage for BR guest. You know, they do those Camino's restaurants here in the city. He serves something like 8000 margaritas on Cinco de Mayo. Um, and uh, Thomas Wah from uh, Death and Co, uh, which was, you know, just, I guess, this year just won, like, best bar in the
+
+[2:18] universe at Tales of the Cocktail or something like that. Best cocktail that's in the universe, something like that. Like a bunch of best in the universe kinds of things. Anyway, this year we were investigating how stirring, you know, what is the basic science behind stirring a cocktail? And the interesting things about it. about it for a minute, is last year when we did shaking, the fundamental thing we learned about shaking was that it
+
+[2:38] really, your shaking style doesn't make that much of a difference in terms of the temperature and the dilution of the drink when you're done.
+
+[2:44] Also, the ice doesn't make that much of a difference, assuming there's not a lot of water on the ice. doesn't make that much of a difference within reason. And that's good news for people, especially at home, because it means that they can make a decent quality drink without being basically the Yoda of the shake. You know, as long as they, you know, do a relatively decent job and they shake, you know, for about, you know, 12 to 15 seconds, they're
+
+[3:05] going to, you know, get fundamentally the similar dilution, you know, every time they do it. Uh, stirring, unfortunately, uh, is a lot more, a lot more complicated because stirring is not as efficient as uh, shaking in in chilling. So the 1st rule of all of cocktails, by the way, especially in bars where the ice that they're using in the bar is almost always right at the melting
+
+[3:26] point. It's not from the freezer. And by the way, even if you use ice in a freezer, you think you're winning a lot because it's a lot colder than ice that's, you know, been sitting
+
+[3:33] out. You don't actually win that much because ice doesn't have that much extra energy in it stored in the form of
+
+[3:41] temperature. Most of it is given when it melts. It's the melting of ice that really does most of the chilling and dilution. So the fundamental rule of cocktails is there is no dilution without chilling, and there is no chilling, without dilution. They're related. And so because stirring is less effective than shaking and chilling. You actually can alter the drink greatly by how much you
+
+[4:03] stir it. So while a cocktail, when you shake, it only takes about 12, 15 seconds to reach equilibrium, a
+
+[4:09] stirred cocktail can take up to a minute or longer. Um, okay. So, with that, that's what I was doing for the past week. And if you want to call in with any more questions about stirring. We going to put a blog post up pretty soon on, you know, with all kinds of nice purdy charts and graphs on stirring fast, during slow, stirring with big ice,
+
+[4:27] stirring with crappy ice, yada, yada, yada. Anyway, so, you know, that's what we've been up to. Now, I'm going to take some of the questions that we had emailed to us over the past week.
+
+[4:36] Michael Natkin, the author of Herbivoracious.com, which is a vegetarian recipe blog, asks a very interesting question. He says, why do some things taste better the next day? For instance, tomato sauce, lentil soup, and stews. And he says, the conventional wisdom is that the flavors marry when it's left overnight, but that doesn't really seem very well defined. So 1st of all, is this true? he asks. And if it is true, then, you know, why? Can we pinpoint anything specific from a chemical standpoint of why that's the case? Well, this is an extremely interesting question. The short answer is, yes, some foods do taste better. you know, after they've been sitting for a while. And but some taste noticeably worse. In the vegetable world, for instance, potatoes can, when they're stored, take on an off flavor that's, you know, perceived as kind of cardboardy. And it's the same with meats can take on, although you don't care because you're a vegetarian recipe blog, but certain meats can take on a flavor called warmed over flavor when they've been chilled and reheated.
+
+[5:34] And what's happening in those cases, when things taste bad, is that there's an oxidation of fat oxidation going on. So, uh, you know, there's certain, you know, uh, polyontaturated fats in there that are being um, oxidized to create kind of these off cardboardy, rancid, warmed over flavors in, in certain
+
+[5:52] potatoes and in certain meats when they're reheated and stored in the presence of oxygen, and a vacuum bag can kind of ameliorate those problems. Now, the problem of things actually tasting better and changing. is a lot more complicated than that. So certain people, certain foods that people think tastes better when they're reheated, like for instance, pizza, if you reheat it properly, is because let's say the person who made it didn't have their dough
+
+[6:15] balance quite right and water migrated to the crust, right? So now your crust is floppy. If you reheat it properly, you can recrisp the crust and it's actually crisper than it used to be because there's less water in the
+
+[6:26] crust and so you can get a crisper crust. So certain, in certain pizzas, you can actually get a better product when you reheat it versus when
+
+[6:32] you, when you had it the 1st time. Lasagna is another thing pointed too often. People say, well, lasagna tastes better. Lasagna, as it's cooling, the pasta, presumably, can then reabsorb more water than it could. It absorbs water out of the sauce. The sauce becomes more concentrated. That's one effect, so it's going to taste, you know, good upon reheating. A secondary effect with strong flavored sauces, like tomato, like stews, like soups. Um, is that these sauces have lots of high notes uh, in the
+
+[7:02] bottles that kind of uh, can stick out. Now, uh, these volatiles can flash off when it's cooling and flash, you know, flash off again, when it's when it's
+
+[7:10] rewarming and this can uh, basically create an evening out effect of the flavor, but even more
+
+[7:15] so as it's being stored in the uh, in the fridge, the actual, uh, the actual levels of the different volatiles can change as they're degraded or, uh, you know, broken up or hydrolyzed in the food as it's being stored.
+
+[7:27] And what's interesting is that the breakdown of these volatile compounds, a lot of them are created when the food is cooked, right? And they react a different way when they're on the heat, then they do when they're in the fridge. So you get a different kind of breakdown of these compounds, and then when you reheat it, you break, you're breaking more down again, and basically, you can cause a leveling off of these volatiles. So there's, and I was, I was hard pressed this morning. I was looking to try and find some specific papers on it so I could cite some for you, but I couldn't. But this is my feeling. My memory, I should say, of what's going on in the situation. Uh, you know, that, and that's aside from any actual kind of effect they have where, you know, maybe the spice didn't penetrate to the center of a bean, let's say.
+
+[8:09] and when you let it sit overnight it does. So there's many, many multiple effects going on. It's actually quite a complicated process, but yes, certain foods can taste better and certain foods can taste worse. Um, okay. So hopefully that answers that question. I have another one. Someone says, my mom wants anonymous, by the way. My mom wants to know if she can put a frozen piece of meat into a
+
+[8:36] crock pot. Yes, yes, you can. So here's what happens. And I believe we have another question on freezing, then I'm going to deal with later, but freezing is fundamentally a dehydration technique.
+
+[8:46] So what happens is when water freezes, It freezes into ice. It's pure water. So you have water that's bound in cells. That water basically crystallizes out and freezes as crystals, okay? So the ice that forms is basically removed from either between the cells or in the cells of your meat. It's fundamentally or whatever product you're freezing. It's fundamentally a dehydration process. Now, super rapid thawing in certain cases can prevent certain foods like meats that might reabsorb that liquid from reabsorbing them.
+
+[9:21] Also, improperly frozen things that have a lot of damaged cells in them will not reabsorb the liquid. And you can tell a good quality frozen product from a bad quality frozen product because you'll see a lot more
+
+[9:34] of what's called drip loss. You see a lot of liquid flowing out of the, out of the, you know, product as it's thawing, right? That's the hallmark of an improperly frozen thing. Now, certain things you just can't help it. Like berries, that's going to happen unless you have some very good freezing technology, like liquid nitrogen. Um, because the faster you freeze it, the less damage uh, there is uh, to, well, within reason. I mean, if you freeze it too fast, it turns brittle and shatters, but that's, you know, that's another story. So now, when you're cooking something in a crock pot, right? A crock pot is a fairly, it's fairly gentle in that it doesn't scorch foods, but it's also a fairly high heat. You're gonna basically cook the heck out of that meat and you're gonna cook it so long that you're gonna cook all that water out anyway, and you're getting the juiciness out of the sauce that's cooking in and you're getting the juiciness out of the gelatin that's
+
+[10:18] cooking in. So there's absolutely no reason why you can't sear your meat from frozen if you want to do that and then throw it in a
+
+[10:24] crock pot and go from there. You're going to cook it for a long time. It's not going to throw off your cooking times that much unless the meat is very, very thick. Uh, and so I think, uh, I think that's that's fine practice and it's definitely going to save you, save you some time. Another anonymous question came in. I want to know if it's true that putting your face in front of a microwave is going to damage you. Well, this is an interesting question. I've had this question asked many times, and as someone that has done many unauthorized things to microwave ovens, I'm somewhat qualified to answer this question, you'll notice that the inside of your microwave is all metal,
+
+[10:57] okay? And that there's a shield, a grate over the front door of the microwave that's also made out of metal and it's perforated with little holes. Now, those little holes are specifically designed to not allow
+
+[11:10] microwaves through. So the even though you can see the light. The light is very much shorter wavelength than microwave. So light can make it through without a problem, but the microwaves cannot at all. In fact, even if those holes were a good bit larger, like the size of a pencil, you still wouldn't get appreciable
+
+[11:30] radiation through that. Now, if you have a microwave, microwaves have
+
+[11:37] that metal, that metal perforated sheet, and then they also have usually a plastic or glass sheet in front of that perforated sheet. And what that's doing is that stops you from putting your eyes directly against that metal grate. If you put your eyes directly against that metal grate, you will have some microwave energy that can make it through those little holes for very, very short distances. I'm talking very short distances. So I do not recommend removing the metal grate and then putting your eyeballs against the uh, against
+
+[12:02] the uh, that perforated, you know, perforated sheet. Now, it is true that certain microwaves, if the latch fails or they have problems with their gas getting or their dorm material, such that, you know, basically the
+
+[12:14] microwave can leak leak out and there's not a good grounding between all the different parts,
+
+[12:18] then, yes, you can get some leakage of microwaves, they make basically microwave detectors, which are just meters that sense whether there's microwave
+
+[12:25] radiation, you can walk around your microwave and see whether or not it's
+
+[12:29] leaking. You know, if you're paranoid about these things. You know, they're not that expensive. You can get one. Uh, and, you know, I used one once when I did a lot of modifications to a microwave and wanted to make sure I wasn't going to turn anyone's eyeballs into, uh, you know, poach eggs because, uh, you know,
+
+[12:44] once the once the protein in your eyes goes white from being denatured, it's uh, it's, you know, end of story. And this actually used to happen. You know, microwave is very similar to radar technology. In fact, the old story, my grandfather, you know, before he
+
+[12:56] retired, was a radar technician, not technician, engineer, built radars, including radars for Air Force
+
+[13:01] jets back in the day. And the old story was that an engineer at Raytheon figured out, it's probably apocryphal, but figured out the microwave oven because he was working on a radar unit and
+
+[13:11] the candy bar in his pocket melted. And he was, it was like, ah, that's interesting. Candy bar in my pocket melted and then kind of all, you know, went from there. But I believe that there's also been cases, and I don't know whether it's just to scare the crap out of me, that, you know, people have stared down. They know an old school radar, continuous weight radar thing and, you know, been blinded and all this other stuff. Anyway, I hope that answers. I hope that answers your question. Okay. Let's take one what? We have 2 more minutes. Oh, we have 2 more minutes. All right, well, maybe I, maybe I shouldn't take a complicated, uh, complicated question then before I, uh, before I go to break. Um, I will say that I hope you call in. Our number is 718, 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 or you can email Nastasia at Lopez.n-A-S-I-A at gmail.com. Right. And we're going to try to handle all of your cooking related questions. When we get back. We'll answer some more questions and I will talk about the weird variety meats that we've been cooking. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. It's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want no people to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Hey, yeah. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take your high.
+
+[15:01] All right. I'm gonna do it again. He wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's it. I gotta take you home.
+
+[15:14] Bam! Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow in my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, that's going through that, we did it now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Yo, James, horn moment. This is Dave Arnold and you were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in with your cooking related questions or, you know, at this point, any questions. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Um, okay, so we have a question in from uh, Greg Krecklberg. And he asked actually some very complicated technical questions. He wants to know, the 1st question actually is a little easier to deal with. He says, what can a home cook do to freeze foods or sauces that will break when you freeze
+
+[16:04] them? He wants to know, shall I add gelatin, agar, starches, fats, blah, blah, blah. And liquid nitrogen is one of them. I like Greg that you're saying a home friendly technique for doing this is to use liquid nitrogen. I really appreciate that. And it shows how far we've come in the past couple of years.
+
+[16:21] Now, um, Liquid nitrogen probably actually, uh, it doesn't help free
+
+[16:26] saw stabilize some things, but I know that it does prevent um, other things from getting um, damaged
+
+[16:31] by by freezing. I haven't done a lot of testing with liquid nitrogen freestyling. Liquid nitrogen. Liquid nitrogen will preserve the quality. You're going to get a lot less drip loss out of foods that are frozen with liquid nitrogen. If you're going to freeze something with liquid nitrogen and you think it's going to become too brittle. One way to do it best. And I learned this from, you know, someone who basically works in a cal seam and calcium in operation. Uh, you want to suspend the food above the liquid nitrogen just above the liquid nitrogen for a number of minutes to pre-freeze it
+
+[17:01] uh, before it becomes hyperbrittle, and then you can immerse it in the liquid nitrogen, and you're going to get
+
+[17:06] a very, uh, you know, nicely frozen product. But I assume that this is not what you mean. Things like, so the question he's saying, should he add things to
+
+[17:16] his sauces, like gelatin, agar, starches and fats, to make them more free sauce
+
+[17:22] stable. Gelatin is not free sauce stable. And neither is Agar. In fact, we use both of those things. We use the fact that they're not free sauce stable when we're clarifying juices. We basically freeze them. And then when they thaw, they weep, they weep fluid, uh, quite readily. And we use that fact to clarify things. So those don't work. In general, what you want to add to increase freestyle stability are thickeners. Thickeners like locust bean gum, thickeners like Xanthan gum. So something that basically holds together, but is, you know, has a tendency to weep a little bit or break a little bit, you know, a little
+
+[18:04] bit like under a percent of locust bean. Um, locust bean has to be heated, of course, uh, guar,
+
+[18:10] guar tastes kind of bad, uh, unless you have the really nice guar made by TIC gums,
+
+[18:15] the flavor free guar. A little bit of Xantan also acts as a stabilizer is going to stop things from weeping out. There are starches that will help. I don't, um, I don't happen to know what they are. I didn't have a chance to research them before I, before I came over. But in general, you move towards some sort of a thickener to help stabilize situation, especially a gel. If you want to make a gel more free sauce stable, you're going to use some sort of thickener. Like I say, like like locust bean, like like like Xanthan. Um, now, um, let me think. I'm trying to see the other questions. I'm not exactly sure. He's saying sauce is like whole vegetables roasted, but I'm not exactly sure what the freestyle problem with that is if it's weeping because of texture being broken down, then the best way to make sure that you freeze and thaw those nicely is to use very, very rapid
+
+[19:06] freezing. Uh, and the best way to do that is, of course, liquid nitrogen barring that, you can make an ice slush with about 25% um, salt by weight with ice. Make a slush with that, put your foods in a bag, and then immerse them in a slush. going to freeze them very quickly with very small ice crystals, and it's going to preserve the flavor in those in those kinds of things. Now, he says on the flip side, what's a good way to thaw these ingredients. Thawing is actually a really interesting problem. When you, it's easier, believe this. It's easier to freeze something quickly than it is to
+
+[19:40] thought, and here's why. ice is actually a much better heat conductor than water, much better. The only reason you think water is a much better conductor of heat, right? is that, uh, you can move around. Inside your food, the water can't move around. So it's not as good a conductor as ice is. So once something starts freezing in the freezer, the outside becomes ice, it now becomes a very good conductor. Now, it's easier for the inside to freeze. When you're thawing, the outside thaws first. Now it's water. Now it's harder to conduct the heat in. It also takes more energy to heat ice than it does to heat water. And so it actually takes longer to thaw something than it does to freeze it. If you want a speed thawing, obviously the best way to do it is to, if you want it to be fast, is to put it in a bag and then put it in
+
+[20:31] running water. Inside a bag in running water, ideal. It's going to thaw it out. It's going to be fairly gentle, assuming you're going to use it right away, and it's going to be fairly quick. I mean, that's the fastest way, you know, that we know of. I haven't experimented a lot. People used to sell thawing trays that were basically big blocks of aluminum and that aluminum would just, you know, draw the heat away from the
+
+[20:53] food. But I don't know whether they're any better or worse than just putting something in uh, running water in uh, inside of a bag because that way you're wicking heat away from all sides, not just from the side with
+
+[21:06] the with the metal block. Another question he has is he really loves habaneros, as do we. habanero peppers. We're until very recently, the hottest pepper is kind of known. They've since been superseded by a couple other peppers called the ghost peppers, but those peppers, to
+
+[21:21] my, I've never had a fresh ghost pepper, but to me, nothing beats the
+
+[21:26] flavor and the amazing floral aroma of habanero peppers. And Greg apparently agrees with us. He says, I do not like the heat they bring because most people are overwhelmed, but he loves the
+
+[21:37] floral, delicious floral aspects of the pepper. Now, he says he's developed basically a surgical method for lowering the heat, presumably by removing the
+
+[21:45] interior portion of the veins and seeds and, you know, the very interior portion of the skin on the inside. But he says it's moderately labor intensive, and no one would do it in bulk. And I agree, that sounds like a huge pain in the butt. And I know from a lot of experience with them in the kitchen that when you deal with them a lot, everything gets contaminated and people get pissed and they start hacking and wheezing all over the kitchen because it's just
+
+[22:09] horrible. Could there be some low or mid-temperature way to dissolve and move the capsation out capsation is what makes things hot out of the picture while preserving? The enchanting floral nature of the pepper, no vodka, no roto app. Okay, maybe vodka, but still no rotavag. Well, Greg, you're killing me here because the rotovap is the primo way to do this. I don't know. You might be able to do regular distillation without a roto app. I mean, you could try just macerating or grinding the peppers in vodka and then doing a simple stovetop distillation with, you know, just with a bowl of ice, you know, you look up anything on
+
+[22:52] the any on the internet, any site on simple stovetop distillation, you just need a pot, some
+
+[22:58] ice, and a bowl. Now, the downside is, is that this is going to happen upwards of, you know, 80 degrees or so Celsius, whereas I can do it down at like 40 Celsius. Now, I don't know for a fact how much those amazing floral aromas are going to be affected by that higher heat,
+
+[23:16] but, you know, I would love it if you would try it and then, and then tell us. Um, I don't, uh, it just soaking in vodka, like that the vodka sucks that heat up. Now, perhaps they, perhaps the alcohol preferentially soaks up the cusation, in which case you might be able to use the peppers slightly deheated after you do it, but I don't think you're going to preferentially take the
+
+[23:39] capsation as opposed to those floral aromas. I think you're going to lose a little bit of both. He suggests maybe using peel zyme, which is an enzyme that we use to break down the tissue. Unfortunately, peelzyme breaks down the actual flesh tissue of peppers and turns them to mush.
+
+[23:56] And so I don't think that that's going to help. Um, I don't, uh, and he says possibly that in, um, in conjunction with an oleophilic, something that's going to bond to fats. That's a possibility. Uh, but I just, I haven't tested it. So I can't say whether it's going to work or not, but it is something that I will look into more. And if you have any ideas. Greg, I encourage you to please write or call us and give us some good ideas,
+
+[24:23] right, Nastasia? That's something we're interested in. Um, okay. Sorry, I couldn't be more help on that. Here's another one I can't be more help on. Someone says, do we have any comments on the AeroPress type coffee filtration? Uh, the Aeropress type coffee maker. And the question is, like, how does it, how, what does it taste like? Uh, the, you know, how does it flavor? you know, the flavor, what's the acid balance, and this, blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately, Paul wrote in that. Unfortunately, Paul, I have not used the AeroPress. I have good friends who've had done a lot of work with them. I have some calls into Jeffrey Steingarten, but he's even harder to get in touch with an eye. He's like the only person in the world harder to get in touch with. He answers his phone less than I do. And I couldn't, he's a big advocate. So I wanted to ask what he thought. For those of you that don't know the era press. It was designed. I think by the same, what's the name of that Frisbee nastasia with a hole in the middle that flies for like a 1000000 yards, the
+
+[25:14] Araby? that it? Araby. You know what I'm talking about? Anyway, I think it was designed by the same, um, same fellow that did the Arabi, I believe. And it's basically a cylinder with a filter in it and a
+
+[25:27] piston. You put the coffee in, the hot water, you push the piston down, it provides some amount of pressure and then forces it out. And the main thing is it's supposed to make delicious coffee, and it's supposed to, it's cheap, and you can carry it wherever, wherever you want to go. The reason I haven't experimented with it is that although it is a pressurized coffee system, it doesn't generate 135 or so PSI, like, you know, 89 bar,
+
+[25:53] which is what you need to make espresso. And it is not because I'm a snob at all, but basically I only drink espresso and I drink like a 1000000000 cups of it a day.
+
+[26:04] And for years, I've had just because I'm like this. I went on eBay and actually to a restaurant auction. I went to a restaurant auction once, I bought a, the 1st espresso machine I owned was a 2 group Ranchillio restaurant machine from a restaurant auction where the restaurant has been shut down by the drug enforcement agency because they were also dealing drugs out of the restaurant.
+
+[26:22] When the drug enforcement agency shuts down your restaurant. What they do is they walk up and they put a padlock on the door and
+
+[26:27] then they unplug all the lights, right? Well, actually, they just flipped the circuit breaker and then all the food just sits there and rots in your fridge until they get around to figuring out what the hell they're going to
+
+[26:36] do. Well, this place was in somewhere, you know, in
+
+[26:40] the in the 150s, 160 somewhere near Broadway, and they just let it rot for like a year or, you know, 8 months a year, and then they had a restaurant auction.
+
+[26:50] And so, uh, you know, I showed up at the restaurant auction and when they opened the door, the aroma was so over the aroma. The miasmal stench was so overwhelming that, you know,
+
+[27:00] literally like seasoned veterans of restaurants were running out of there. And to me, I was like, hey, this is great news. This is awesome because what it means is, is that no one is going to bid on this crap. I mean, no one is going to bid on this crap because no one can even stand in the room with this, you know,
+
+[27:17] like all the Cuban sandwich rolls. We're still there all desiccated and half eaten. Like, you would have like a bun, and then the mouse that was eating the bun that had died, and then the mouse had in turn been eaten by whatever else was in
+
+[27:27] them. It was horrible, horrible. But tell them how you got it home. Well, another guy was being there. Another guy who, like, you know, he actually, like, literally was a crack dealer at one and decided he was going to, you know, go legit and had started a, uh, was starting a downtown restaurant, you know, like a food cart and he was buying
+
+[27:46] stuff and, you know, I paid him $20 to drive me home and then, uh, I left the espresso pump in his car and I had to go out and find him and he was like, who the hell's calling me? Anyway, whatever. I got this machine for almost for nothing, but I had to disassemble it and boil
+
+[27:59] it every single part of it and reconstruct it. I learned a lot about espresso machines. But the, that's a long way of saying that I've had a commercial espresso machine for a long time, and so I haven't necessarily investigated other techniques for making coffee, and I apologize that I have a very, uh, small amount of knowledge on the
+
+[28:15] AeroPress coffee system, but from what I hear, it's, uh, it's pretty good. That's what I hear. And so I'm sure that, uh, and you now made me feel bad that I haven't experimented with
+
+[28:27] it, and I don't know what it costs some, like, minimal amount of money, I think. So now maybe I'll just go buy one and play with it or at least maybe get Steingarten to call me back and have him tell me why
+
+[28:36] it's, why it's so great. Uh, next next segment. I promise, I will talk about the weird meats that we ate. You're listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network, calling your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And this is cooking issues, and I am David Arnold.
+
+[29:08] Bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey. Bad, bad, bad whiskey, made me lose my happy home. When I left home this morning. I promise I would think To stay real straight and sober I swore I wouldn't drink
+
+[29:40] Bad whiskey. Bad, bad whiskey. Bad whiskey made me lose my happy home. I passed up all the pool hearts. Give the boss a slip. Before the night was over I started in to sit. You were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio network. I am Dave Arnold, and we are here to answer your cooking issues, whether they come in via email or via
+
+[30:26] telephone. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So, we ran an interesting experiment last week, uh, where we ordered a whole bunch of odd
+
+[30:41] meats from a butcher in Chicago. I'm going to ruin the name. What is it, Nastasia? It's like Zeimer? Z-Z-I-M-E-R. Okay. And so these guys, for generations, I think, since, you know, the teens, since, like, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, so, 19, 14,
+
+[31:01] something like that, these guys have been dealing in kind of odd, odd
+
+[31:05] meets. Now, one of the strange things, no strange things. America used to be known as kind of the game the game food capital of the world. We just had so much of it, you know, early on, and all of it was legal to sell. So if you go back and you look in on the web at something called the
+
+[31:22] Markets Assistant, and it was basically a guide to the New York Markets that was written both before and after and around the Civil
+
+[31:28] War. You know, you'll see, and it's available on Google Books, and the guy at the front looks like Build a Butcher Pool from Gangs of New York. It kind of cool. But the list of foods that was available to purchase and markets, even in New York City, was shattering amazing. I mean, just the different types of meats. And the reason was, is that anything that you killed, shot, you know, caught, whatever was fair game. There were no rules, there were no regulations. A combination of things has caused that to not be the case anymore. One is sanitary regulation. So things have to be slaughtered in basically in approved slaughterhouses now. So that cuts down the amount of things that you can do. And you're also not allowed to sell foods that you hunt game that you hunt. And that's up due to, you know, the fact that we were just killing too damn much and to keep the animals,
+
+[32:13] you know, to keep a good stock of animals, there was conservation laws put on them. Also, specifically things like birds, that you used to be able to shoot any damn thing, it's like the birds that you're allowed to kill now are very, very highly
+
+[32:25] regulated and like one of the ones I really want to actually eat is this thing called the bobolink. This is off topic. I don't care. The bobble link is this is this tiny bird. Okay, listen. Many of the viewers out there are viewers. Many listeners listeners out there are familiar with the Ordolon. Ordolan is the famous French bird that you eat, bones and all. They roast it whole, and you're supposed to put a napkin over it. Some people say to preserve the aroma. Some people say to hide from God. And these Orolan are basically little birds and they go on a long migration. And somewhere, you know, in near the beginning, in the middle of the migration. They stop by in the Mediterranean area in France and they gorge because they need to get a lot of energy and they get very fat so that they can fly all the way south, right?
+
+[33:06] It's a passerine type of bird. bird migration. So what they've done for centuries is catch these birds and then fatten them specifically so that they're little
+
+[33:15] plump, fat little juicy morsels. They then, okay, this sounds awful. This part's awful. Then they they, uh, they usually suffocate them in liquor and then roast them whole. So this is the famous Ordolan that's now illegal. And by the way, fattening things like this has a long, long, long
+
+[33:30] history, goes back, you know, to the Romans and probably before the Romans, where they used to fatten animals like fig peckers and dormess and things like that, fatten them specifically for the kitchen, catching
+
+[33:38] and fathom. Okay. Now, the Orolan is not the only bird like this. There are 2 other well-known to the cultures that do them, migration birds like that that get super fat and get caught and get eaten. One's in China, and I forget the name of it. like the yellow breasted patty swallow or something like that in English. I forget the name of it, but the other one is the bobolink, which used to be known as the rice bird. And when we used to grow a lot of rice in South Carolina, all the way up until the early part of last century, the migration of these birds would go down, they'd see all the rice, and these flocks, like, you could, like, basically these huge, huge migrating flocks would go down, and they would eat a crapload of rice, get amazingly fat,
+
+[34:18] and, but because they were hurting the rice crop, and because apparently they were incredibly delicious, you'd basically just fire these, like, small shot shotguns into the air, and the birds would just, you know, fall,
+
+[34:28] like, rain around you, and you'd pick them up, and they supposedly the best thing in the world. They were called rice birds. Anyway, you used to be able to get those. And I called every single country, there, there, the commissions involved in every single country in the migration from here, all the way down to South
+
+[34:42] America to see whether any of them allowed me to eat that bird and they didn't. Anyways, it's just a rant on the bubbling. Okay, back to the weird meats. Sorry, back to the weird meats that we were eating. So this place gets all these weird meats that are typically now unavailable, but maybe would have been available before all of
+
+[35:01] these, uh, these laws, uh, which, by the way, the laws are good. I'm not saying the laws are bad. Now, the meats we got were we got lion meat and the lion is obtained, I think I said last week, the lion is obtained because lions that aren't wanted anymore by morons who have them as pets or breeding programs.
+
+[35:20] Um, they're not wanted anymore. They give them up and typically they can't be placed again. They're slaughtered for their fur and then the meat becomes a byproduct. We had beaver. I don't really know like why I don't know what happened with the beaver. I don't know what the deal is with that. Um, but the, um, we had black bear, probably a similar situation with the lion. We had Yak, which I believe was actually farm for this purpose. What else do we have? whole raccoon. We had a whole raccoon. Uh, and we had one other, didn't we? was that it? Um, I think that's it. Okay. So I'm here to tell you what this stuff tasted like. Lion was quite interesting. Lion tastes like pork, right? Pork chop. tastes like pork chop, a little bit more savory. It's interesting. It's got kind of a, it's a pork based flavor with kind of a unique savory thing, probably due to the fact that it's a carnivore. It eats only meat. We very rarely eat carnivores. So it was, I like the lion a lot. It was an older animal. We cooked it at 50s. No, yeah, what I cook it at 60. I cooked it at 60 degrees Celsius for only, it felt really tender, so I only cooked it for an hour or 2 and it was quite tough. I think we needed to cook it a lot longer to kind of, because it didn't have a lot of, like, visible connected tissue, but since it was so old, it was kind of tough. So next time I cook lion, I think I'm going to cook it for a good, maybe 10 hours at 60 Celsius or thereabouts. It was good. It was very good. Uh, we did uh, I might have done 57. I wish I could remember. I gotta go look at my numbers. Bear was extremely dark, black almost, and also felt very, very tender before it was cooked. It felt very soft. We cooked it at 57, I believe,
+
+[37:00] because it looked like a steak, so I wanted to cook like a steak level, also for about an hour. And it was also tough, but it had a really kind of like aftertaste, like really kind of, to me, bloody mineral aftertaste that I didn't really enjoy. You didn't like the bear. I didn't try it. I was scared of the chickenosis. I told you that the trichonosis is going to be killed by that kitty procedure. We looked it up. We know the, like, the, the thermal death cursor trichinosis. I told you we killed all the trichonosis in that thing. I was still I had food poisoning that week. geez. Okay, so she reads trichinosis about it and she thinks she has trichinosis. I'm like, you don't, your body's not full of worms. I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax, whatever. I'm not going to get into it. I didn't enjoy the bear that much. Yeah, some people say it tastes greasy. didn't taste greasy. just had kind of a weird metallic aftertaste for me. The raccoon was a big disappointment. I cooked that raccoon. Probably I need to cook it a lot longer and at a higher temperature. I cooked it only for 4 or 5 hours at 60 Lion, by the way, I remember now, I cooked it at 57. The raccoon, I cooked at 60 for like 4.5 hours because I thought it was, you know, but it just because it's small doesn't mean it was, it's
+
+[38:10] young, though. So it was tough. It doesn't have that much meat on it. In the future, I would cook it to a much higher temperature for a much longer time, like probably 63, 62, 63
+
+[38:19] degrees for like 24 hours and then shred it like for a stew. But it had a lot of fat on it. It really freaked people out anyway. You know, it's not wasn't nearly as delicious as the guinea pigs that I've cooked from South America, which, you know, I think are delicious.
+
+[38:32] But I'm willing to give raccoon another chance, but the raccoon I had very high hopes for and I was disappointed. Now, on a positive side, that beaver was delicious. So there's beaver tail, which isn't actually the flapper, and then there's the flapper. The beaver tail, we cooked for 24 hours at 60 Celsius, and it was just delicious. It had a really interesting woody aroma that, you know, I've never really had before in a piece of meat. We had soaked it in a little bit of vinegar water before we cooked it because every recipe basically tells you to do
+
+[39:05] that. So we did that. And then we salted it a little bit, let's sit, and then put it in a bag, cooked it at in butter at 60 for 24 hours, and then shredded
+
+[39:15] it to tail me, and just fantastic. I love that beaver. That beaver was delicious, right? Hey, come on now, Stasi. Get your mind out of the gutter. It was like a woody pulled pork. Yeah, it was very good. Very, very good. They flapper, which is the actual tail part, though, is mainly fat and skin, and we cooked that at a very, uh, we, we skinned one 1st and then
+
+[39:35] we, we cooked another one whole after we had scrubbed it. We cooked those at a high temperature, like 80 Celsius or so for a couple of hours, and they rendered out,
+
+[39:45] and but they were just kind of, I fried them afterwards, and they got kind of puffy and crispy on the outside, but there was just kind of too much fat on the inside, and we ate them last. Really what needs to happen. We got to run some more experiments is to cook them, then take the fat out, use it for another preparation, and then use the skin, dehydrate it, and puff it like a
+
+[40:02] chicheron. So, you know, in the future, you will be having from us from cooking issues team, probably beaver
+
+[40:08] flapper, chicharron, because I think it's going to be good. Yeah, yeah. Stasi's having a tough time keeping it together here in the in the in the room. And the last one also, really, really delicious was the yak. Now, the yak, we did cook for overnight at the same time as the same amount as week. Actually, no, shoot, I keep on getting my stuff wrong. I cooked the yak at 57 for a whole day for 24
+
+[40:33] hours or for overnight rather. And the beaver I actually cook for 2 days, 48 hours of 60. cooked it just like I cook a short rib. Excuse me, people. Sorry about that. So, but the yak, we cooked overnight because my theory was that it was kind of, you know, maybe not quite as tough as a short rib was
+
+[40:50] going to be. And so a short rib, if you cook it for a full day at
+
+[40:54] 60, for 24 hours at 60 degrees Celsius, comes out with a texture of like a skirt steak. And so that's what I was shooting for. So we did that with a yak, and the yak was just really savory and delicious. The odd thing was, is that a lot of us detected a little bit of a duck, kind of a note, duck and
+
+[41:10] tube, but it was just, I thought, I thought it was really good. And the really interesting about these is that these animals are all old animals. And so, you know, a bunch of friends of mine, like Steingarten, who won't call me back, and Harold McGee, have gone over to Europe where they have a culture of eating older, older
+
+[41:27] animals for the flavor. And you notice the flavor is really, really good. So I really, I want to do a lot more experimenting with cooking older animals. We just got to figure out, figure out a way to get them. So, if you want, I believe there is probably time for one more
+
+[41:47] caller, if you if you are near a phone, call in at 71. Oh, we have one. Now, we have a caller in. All right, so there's probably no more time for other callers. Hello? Hello? Hi. name's Jason. Hey, Jason. How you doing? All right. Great. I recently became obsessed with Faro. I just don't know how to cook it right. So what's happening to it? Well, so, my, my obsession began at an, uh, a restaurant that served a Faro salad, and it was just nice, and, uh, it was perfectly cooked like
+
+[42:20] rice, and, uh, I've been cooking it at a, uh, ratio of 3 parts water to one part
+
+[42:27] Faro, for about 50 minutes, and it just doesn't puff up as nicely. I'm wondering, whether I should toast it, initially, or if I should soak it, or what? Well, the soaking soaking will probably help. Um, I'm trying to remember. I had done a lot of cooking, done some cooking with it rather a number of years ago. I haven't cooked it recently. What kind of equipment do you have? Do you have a rice cooker? No, just a pen. Yeah. a rice cooker might help. And also, a lot of times when I want to cook tough grains that have a real tough coat on
+
+[42:58] them like Faro does, aside from any initial soaking that I do, sometimes I'll reach for the pressure cooker because the pressure cooker does a really good job of pushing the liquid into those kind of sea
+
+[43:12] codes. But those, the Faro can take a long time. Have you cooked that with Cesare nostalgia? I can't remember how. What's the... Cooked you for longer than 50 minutes? I don't know. I don't wanna say something. I don't want to say something that's not true, but yeah, I've seen him cook it. I'll try it and I'll call back and let you know if it's true or not. All right. Yeah, right We'll do some research, too. Oh, geez. Mustache is not willing to call Cesare. Well, text Chez right now. See if we can get it while you're going. But, um, if you don't, a rice cooker, they're good because they're not going to scorch it while you're going, so you don't have to watch it as carefully and they're going to get the water and eventually,
+
+[43:45] um, and, you know, on a brown on a brown rice setting. Uh, or, or, you know, I would definitely reach for the pressure cooker and the pressure cooker is a lot easier because a pressure cooker, you just cook it for like, you know,
+
+[43:57] half hour in a pressure cooker and you know it's going to be done. And that's how I cook similar grains like I'll do, I cook rye berries that way in a pressure cooker. So we do it and I assume it's going to cook fairly similar to a rye berry. So to get a rye berry nice and fluffy. You know, you cook it in the pressure cooker from anywhere from 30 to 40 minutes in excess
+
+[44:15] liquid. You also might want to use excess liquid. Are you, you know, was it absorbing all the liquid? It started to, yeah. Yeah, toward the end. Yeah, so things like that that are tough. You might want to use excess liquid. I don't know that you're going to dilute the flavor that much and then the liquid that you have left over. You could reduce down and use for something else. So that, you know, a lot of times those things, you know, once you start getting in a situation where it's liquid pour in the pan, then you start running into problems where you're actually going to start maybe losing water again out of the outside, the outside's going to harden
+
+[44:47] up. I would keep it. I would keep them in liquid while they're cooking. Uh, because that's definitely how I do it in a in a pressure cooker situation. I don't know if that's going to help whether you have you tried that yet? I don't own a pressure cooker. No, no, I meant keeping keeping excess liquid. Well, if water starts to run out, I'll just add some more water. And still, it's not getting fluffy, huh? Yeah, it's not. All right, listen. So Cesare Casella is the dean of Italian studies at the at the
+
+[45:14] school and the man cooks Faro all day every day. And so what's going to happen is I'm going to, I'm going to ask, I promise Stazi, make sure I don't forget to do this. Okay, we texted Cesare Casella, and I'm going to ask Louis DiPolo from DiPolo, because I buy most of my Faro from DiPolo's here in New York City. Yeah, I love it. I love the Palos. And so it says here he cooks it, risotto style. Oh, okay. So if he cooks at risotto style, then he probably does do an initial fry of the grains. Although I don't know what that's going to do from a texture standpoint, and then just keeps adding liquid the entire time while he's stirring until it absorbs enough.
+
+[45:54] Have you tried that one? Have you tried it basically just like it's a risotto, but it's going to take a lot. That seems like it would take a lot longer. Oh, a whole lot longer. I mean, a whole, whole lot longer. I mean, got kids at home. Yeah, I know what that's like. You know what, though? So you have kids at home. Listen, consider not just for the pharaoh, consider buying a pressure cooker. pressure cooker is like a genius piece of equipment. Um, I don't know if you have the room for it in your kitchen or if, you know, you're anti-pressure cooker, but, you
+
+[46:23] know, No, not at all. I very much pro-pressure, you just don't have the means to buy one. Oh yeah. You guys wouldn't happen to have an extra one just lying around collecting dust, would you? No, we kind of rip through them because they use them on the menu, but look. So, you know, if you've, on our blog, we don't technically recommend any. I use coon recon and coon recons are really expensive. But, you know, for a lot of applications, the cheaper pressure cookers. They they do a serviceable job, especially for things like, you know,
+
+[46:52] like uh, grains like this that you want to cook cook quickly. The advantage of them also is in the summertime. They not going to heat up your kitchen very much. Um, because as soon as they come up to pressure, you can turn the temperature down, uh, I mean, turn out the temperature, sorry, turn the uh, the heat input down. And so they're actually fairly efficient cooking vessels to, you know, just to stop your, you know, cut your air conditioning bills down a little bit in
+
+[47:19] the summertime. I wish I had the recipe in my head. Anyway, we have texted the appropriate people, and Nastasia, your job is to make sure that the answer is put up into the forum section of the blog.
+
+[47:30] We should, I'm going to start a separate thing in the form section. It just like radio, radio show answers. a great idea. Yeah, all right. So I'll do that for you, and that'll be there within within the week. And I apologize that I didn't answer your question too. I think you've done a great job at attempting to. All right. Thanks so much. And I think you did actually answer it. I'll try to buy a pressure cooker. All right. I appreciate it. Thanks for calling. No problem. All right. Oh, yeah, sorry. So as we leave, there is still room in tomorrow, Wednesday, July, what is that, 28th, at the French Culinary Institute downtown, come do high-tech cocktails with me, and with Nils
+
+[48:12] Noran. We are going to do liquid nitrogen, rotary evaporation. We'll teach you how to clarify lime juice using Agar at home. We're going to do three, it was 6 cocktails, really. But 3 different ones done in a home friendly way, and then done in a techno, but still using technology. And then in a technology, intensive way. And so you could taste the difference and see kind of what we do with all the fancy equipment and what you can do at
+
+[48:35] home. That's tomorrow at the French culinary at 6 p.m. I think it's 6 to 8, 6 to 8 or something like that. burgers and fries. Burgers, fries, and liquor. What could be better? You were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, this week brought to you by Fairway, like no other market. Vicious, fish. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:06] Vicious, fish, black girl. Oh, you did. You are listening to cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage
+
+[0:20] Radio Network. Today we're coming to you, not on our usual day. Today we're coming to you on Monday from noon to 1245 instead of our usual Tuesdays. Next week, we'll be back on Tuesday. Today's uh, today's cooking issue is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know, you shop there. I shop there. We all know who they are. You know, they do some good work. They try to do local stuff when they can. Whole Foods Market. There's one near you. Okay, so today we're in the studio today with, of course, Nastasia Lopez, cooking
+
+[0:48] issues, Hammer, and live special guest, Dave Wondridge, award-winning author and master of the inebriating beverage. Hi, Dave. for coming in. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. All right. But cooking issues is the show where we answer your cooking questions. And today, I hope some of you call in with some drink related questions because there's no better person to answer them than Dave Wondridge. author of Imbi, like several versions of the Esquire Cocktail Book, right? What else, what else you got here? Like bazillion magazine articles? Yes, pretty much a metric bazillion at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a cubic bazillion. So, uh, and right now you have a rare opportunity. You can ask any cocktail question you want, and we got you covered, basically. You want a science question. You want a history question, you want a recipe question? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, call in will be here for the next 45 minutes. So before we actually hit the drink making. I did get one email question that came in on a regular cooking related issue. Eddie Shepard from the United Kingdom emailed us and he asked, he's a vegetarian chef, and he wanted to know how to do umami without using Dashi or things like this.
+
+[2:00] Well, you're in luck, Eddie, because umami is basically a sensation we get from protein breakdown. It's an actual sensation. actually have taste receptors on your tongue that receive these protein breakdowns, typically, you know, glutamic acids, the most famous one
+
+[2:14] in amino acid, but, you know, other things as well. And they tell your body that awesome broken down protein is coming in. But, and this is a lot of times signaled by meats. Vegetarian, though, there's a lot of vegetarian things that are very high in umami, and they're things that vegetarians often crave, for instance, cooked mushrooms.
+
+[2:32] Parmesan cheese, anything aged with any aged dairy product where it breaks down over time and forms,
+
+[2:39] you know, amino acids, free aminos, has a lot of umami in it. Tomato has a lot of free umami in it and you cook it and you concentrate it and you can get it that way. So there's many vegetarian ways of getting umami. I am not above spiking things actually with monosodium glutamate. It's totally natural. Someone, please call in and say that they're allergic to it, so I can have this discussion with you. Anyway, the other question Eddie has real quickly is, is sous vide useful for someone who doesn't do meat? Absolutely, Eddie. The low temperature isn't as important with vegetables, but the sous vide is great because it allows you to do things like
+
+[3:12] cook a carrot and have no flavor leach out and nothing go into it. So it kind of, you can use it to accentuate the actual vegetables, get the actual vegetable flavor in rather than changing it. So that's our cooking related question. And now we're on to beverages, yes? Beverages? Beverages. Okay. So, uh, we have a question coming in, um, for Dave. Dave's working on a book now called, it's called Punch, the Delights and Dangers of the Flowing Bowl. Ah, right. And so, and so someone, because we mentioned that he was doing this, wrote in and said, I see
+
+[3:46] punch nowadays, more and more, you know, I see it all the time now. Well, what do you think the state, the modern state of punches and where the punches fit in in a modern cocktail menu? It's really cool to see like everywhere you go into, you know, sort of the state of the art modern bars and there are like tables of people sitting around a punch bowl just like they were 200 years ago.
+
+[4:05] It's kind of cool. It's very fun. But I think right now people are sort of at the stage of figuring it out. They've made a couple classic recipes. They've got a very sort of simplified formula that's been passed down where it's
+
+[4:19] like sour, sweet, strong, weak spice, 5 ingredients mixed together. But there's kind of coming at it from a cocktail head. And I taste a lot of these punches and they're, they taste a lot like really big cocktails. They're very, very pungent, and they're great for just a couple glasses. But over the course of an evening, like, uh, back in the day, they would drink punch, just, you know, bowl after bowl until they were all like rolling around on the
+
+[4:45] floor utterly inebriated, which, you know, we can't really get away with as much as we would like. No, exactly. But nonetheless. I think a lot of it is just so pungent. It's like having quail for dinner every day. You get tired of it after a while. So is it, is it that they, is it that they don't follow the original recipe to get an idea for what the original is meant to be like and then build from
+
+[5:06] there or is it just they're coming from a different perspective? Like, I'm going to have one or 2 of these instead of going to be quaffing these all night? I think people haven't really just started working with it, you know, and for me, because of working on this book, I had to make many, many, many old
+
+[5:21] recipes. And it took me a long time to realize that I was kind of doing it wrong from the old point of view. I mean, these modern punches are totally delicious. It's just, they're very spicy and, you know, pungent. They put a lot of bitters and chartreuse and vermouth and herbal elements,
+
+[5:35] et cetera, which work great in cocktails, but, you know, they kind of cloy after about 4 or 5 small cups.
+
+[5:42] Are they overly strong as well? They tend to be pretty strong too. But I think, you know, that's part. sure that has to do with consumers too. The consumers also expect something more like a cocktail. They don't expect this stuff. I mean, punch originally was like artificial wine. That's what people talked about it. So it would be, you know, right now the artificial wine is more like California
+
+[6:02] Cabernet and less like burgundy and maybe hopefully over time people will go a little more to the burgundy side. Right, and of course, our idea of wine nowadays has been somewhat warped. Like we, we, you know, we're we expect now like a 14% wine instead of like a, you know,
+
+[6:16] a 12 or... Yeah, and some of them are up to like 16, which is, yeah, right? They're getting into the cocktail, right? Good luck waking up the next morning after a couple bottles of that. Well, this brings us actually to another interesting question we had coming in about dilution, and they're asking about the proportion of water in a
+
+[6:32] cocktail, and they want to know, you know, how the ice fits in and how the, you know, the ice breaks down. It's coming from Chris and Greenpoint. Just wanted to talk about, I guess, dilution and ice. And so why don't we take your take on it, Dave, and then, you know, Yeah, I mean, I know you've got a lot of stuff about this too. You could talk for a 1000000000 years on this, but I won't because it's only a 45 minute show. I mean, you know, the standard dilution for a cocktail, the rule of thumb, everybody uses is that the shaking it or stirring it with ice should add 25% to the
+
+[7:07] volume and thereby diluting it by that much. And that, you know, pretty much when I've measured it out, that is pretty good ballpark
+
+[7:16] measured, depending on the kind of ice you're using and so on and so forth. I mean, for me, the interesting thing about that number is, is that based on what? based on just the liquor weight. I mean, like you have drinks that have so many things in them. You know, or yeah, because, you know, your simple syrup is not a liquor, your, your lime's not a liquor, your, whatever you're adding in is not a liquor. I think, you know, having done a bunch of tests on dilution and ice and proportions. I think the best way to do it to figure out what you like is to make a drink, weigh the base, make a drink, and then weigh it
+
+[7:50] afterwards, and see how much water you added. I mean, you know, that's the only way to figure it out. We did this. We found that we add that in a shake and drink, and this makes a lot of sense. If you think about it, you want your shake and drink to be more diluted than, you know, your
+
+[8:02] Manhattan. You know, they're different classes of drinks. I mean, the shaking drinks are sours already. They're already more dilute. You've already got, as you said, you know, simple syrup and citrus juice in there. Right. And the interesting thing about stirred cocktails. If you look at it, is how long do you say the average bartender stirs a cocktail, maybe 20 seconds?
+
+[8:19] Something in there. Now, that's even a lot. I mean, it's usually even, you know, like in the 15 range. Right. And what's interesting about stirring as opposed to shaking and dilution is that shaking does
+
+[8:32] a dilution very fast. If a bartender shakes their drink for 15 seconds, they probably, they've made it to, you know, after that
+
+[8:39] point, there's diminishing returns on chilling. But instead... That's way too long, also. Yeah, but in stirring, well, especially if you like a boozy drink, which I know you do. Yeah. But the, but the, uh, we all have our weakness. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, we have the same one. So it's like, but in a stir drink, it turns out that it takes upwards of a minute to get to that same level of
+
+[9:00] dilution, as you would, shaking for 15 to 20 seconds. So there's a lot, there's a lot more room for error and room for artistry in stirring. Well, it also depends on what kind of ice you use for stirring. I use I'll use like finely cracked or almost snow ice, you know? And that the dilution is fast in that, but it doesn't it's not more than 25% because it gets so cold instantly.
+
+[9:25] Right. Yeah, well, that's stirring is all about surface. Like shaking is so violent that everything happens fairly quickly. Stirring, you can make it actually faster than shaking, if you use fine enough, fine enough ice. The dilution in the chilling can be can be almost instant. But, like, if you notice, like, bartenders who want to have their stirring be more effective, they'll crack their ice as they're doing
+
+[9:45] it. And I thought that was a bunch of hookum until I realized that ice, you know, has a lot of water sitting on the outside of it. And when you crack ice right before you stir, you're getting more surface area, which makes for faster, you know, colder drinks, but you're doing it in a way that's not adding extra water because you're making newer, dry
+
+[10:01] surfaces you're doing. So it's actually a good practice to crack the big ice. It makes a huge difference. I mean, you can stir, as you said, with cubes, it takes like a minute. I find drinks stirred with like the large cold draft cubes that everyone's using nowadays. They never get as cold as I would like. Right, right. I mean, it's, you know, people need to think, people, they, they think big ice is the answer and big ice is big ice. I mean, it's good at what it's good at, and it's bad what it's bad at. It doesn't have a lot of surface area. It's not very fast at chilling. It's really good at filling up a glass. Yeah, it's really good at like keeping your drink cold for a very long time without completely watering it down.
+
+[10:38] But, you know, the funny thing is studying like mixology in the 19th century. if I can use that dreaded word mixology. Those guys then, they got their ice in big blocks, they had to butcher it up as needed. They had different size ice for every kind of drink. They had shavers, so they can shave it right off the block and, you know, expose a new surface that would be dry, shave that, and put it in.
+
+[10:58] And so they had a lot more flexibility than using just cubes out of a machine,
+
+[11:03] which a lot of the newest places are starting to approach now. Sure, like Richie. Yeah, and the guys varnish in LA. I mean, those guys are really serious about using different sized ices for different effects. And that's all it is. It's a question of effects. There's no one answer for that. Right. I mean, the funny thing is, is a lot of times you'll hear bartenders talk about, they'll give some kind of
+
+[11:26] pseudoscientific reason for why X, Y, and Z works. It's like, listen, is your drink good? you know, does the presentation good? and, you know, that's pretty much it. Because I can get into the science of it with them, but often I find it doesn't necessarily help them make their drink any better. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, you can have a drink that's scientifically good and still taste like crap. Yeah, exactly. It's unfortunately the case. Exactly, exactly. Well, that's a good question, Chris. Thanks for calling it in. And you brought up the word mixology. And I used to, I used to actually kind of think it was bizarre because, you know, it's the same thing with people calling themselves chefs who aren't chefs. I think there's a lot of honor in being a cook. I don't see anything wrong with the word bartender, but what if you're not a bartender? That's right. That's exactly, that's exactly right. And also, it is an old word. It's not a new word. I think people don't necessarily know that. anxology has a long history. It goes back to the 1850s. And the funny thing about it, it was coined as a joke. It was in a bit of like patter of, you know, a guy calling
+
+[12:22] the bartender, a mixologist of typicular fixings, like, you know, like tipples. And it was a joke. And I think that's kind of important to keep it that joke aspect in mind. This is not serious stuff. I mean, you can treat it seriously, but you can't treat it that seriously. You know, it still has to have that element of fun and play in it because otherwise it becomes
+
+[12:43] work. And why would you want to like have your your drinking be work? Yeah, exactly. Well, I've come around to the word mixology. We could talk about a word when we come back that I have not come around to molecular because it's always people taking themselves too damn
+
+[12:55] seriously, and it's an awful, terrible word, and please erase it from your food, beverage memory. Plus a lot of the drinks aren't good. But aside aside from that, we'll talk about that when we get back. We're also going to talk about what are we going to talk about Dutch distilled spirits. We can talk about that and the craft distilling, I think, is another big buzzword these days that we could we could kick around a little bit. All right, so we're coming right back at you with Dave Wonders. This is cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. Be so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feeling, Bella? Hey, Jeff. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home. Yeah. All right.
+
+[14:09] I want to do it again. You wanna do it again? Yeah, let's go on that. Gotta take you home.
+
+[14:19] Brother? Now I won't have everybody. Let bread flow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do that with it now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Now, James, horn, moment. Fred, can you take us higher? Yeah. Take us higher. Fred! Fred!
+
+[14:45] You're listening to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. We're here to answer all of your cooking, and today, drink related questions. Please call in your questions too. 718-497-2128-718-497-2128.
+
+[15:04] Today we're here with Dave Wundridge, and we are talking about booze, right? So in the last segment, we started in, and I won't spend too long on this because anyone that knows me has heard me go off on this at great length, but we were talking about mixology as a term, and how, you know, I've kind of come around with
+
+[15:24] it, and Dave was making the excellent point that you kind of have to be lighthearted about it in order for it to work.
+
+[15:28] Well, it should be fun in some way, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then molecular mixology, though, is a horrible thing, yes? Well, you know, it's one of those if by whiskey questions. It depends on what you mean by molecular mixology. If you're making stuff that's new, different, fun, and not perhaps overly pretentious. That's great, you know, if you're treating it like anybody behind the bar has to be in a white lab coat and measuring things by, you know, Jules or something. And,
+
+[16:02] and, and, and you're in the presence of technological genius, so shut up and and take
+
+[16:08] your eat, eat your cocktail or, you know, drink your appetizer or
+
+[16:12] whatever. Then it becomes a little a little much. Right. you know, the operative word here is you say, you know, pretentious. You don't want it to be pretentious. I mean, I think that kind of like one of the best applications I've seen of this is, uh, you know, Tony, Tony Con, Connill
+
+[16:25] Yarro. Is that good? My Italian batter? excellent. Yeah. At 69 Colebrook Row, in London, you know, they use all the
+
+[16:33] newest, all the newest stuff. In fact, stuff that, you know, almost nobody else has, and yet their bars completely unpretentious. Yeah, it's a normal bar. I mean you can, you know, just go in. You could have a beer and be very happy there. wouldn't make you feel weird about it. Right. I mean, they have a tranny band playing, you know, it's got it's got hospitality. It's got fun. It's got a little bit of nightlife going on. Right, it's not Dave Wondersch's ultimate bar for any listeners out there. Dave Wondridge's ultimate bar has a rifle range in it, and you can shoot while you drink. This is like an old... That's a 19th century standard. I mean, I would have to do what they did back then is they had cute girls as the sort of running the rifle range in the
+
+[17:15] bars and you would shoot and try to beat their score, which drove the men nuts because those girls were all crack shots and the guys were all
+
+[17:22] drunk. And so they kept paying and paying and paying and trying and trying again to
+
+[17:26] beat the sober, you know, dead eyes. That's good business. good business, right? It's the same as the mechanical bulls now. Like, you always have the, you know, the one woman tending bar who's extremely good at it. You know, it makes all the men look like idiots, and then they line up to pay to get thrown. Yeah, because they don't want to get beaten by that itty bitty girl there. Yeah, right, right. But, you know. Preying on male stupidity is a growth business always. Oh, yeah, always. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's never gonna go dry. God, no. That will is never going to get tapped. So, um, okay. So I don't know how we got into that. But so that's our take on molecular mixology. Keep it, keep it fun. dont be pretentious. And also, you know what? Make some delicious drinks. Yeah, I mean, one thing I see a lot with is right now it's sort of at the look at the the tricks I can do with it. You know, let me make something that tastes like something else. I'm kind of waiting it. I mean, a martini only tastes like a martini, right? And a Manhattan only tastes like, hopefully, right? And a Manhattan, only like a Manhattan. I am waiting for molecular molecular mixology or whatever we're going to call it now, a
+
+[18:26] technological bartending, whatever, to come up with its drinks that are like that that aren't just tasting like something else, you know, and aren't playing around with like, let me mimic this, let me
+
+[18:38] mimic that. I mean, for me, I'm happy because, you know, this is what I, for those of you out here, this is what I kind of do for a living. Uh, and, uh, you know, so I'm not poo-pooing or make fun of it. I mean, this is how I make a living, is using new techniques and a lot of it in cocktails. And, you know, the goal should be uh, to make something that has legs, to make something that people want to have again and again. You know what I mean? It's not like, oh, that's cute. I'll have one, you know? You don't say that to a martini. Right. So, you know, Nastasia and I work on a drink that I think has, you know, legs, but it's no one would think of it as being, you know, a high-tech cocktail. It's, uh, you know, uh, either nectarine or peach, depending on the
+
+[19:13] quality, uh, plum juice, those juices, plum juice, clarified, uh, bourbon, little
+
+[19:19] water, and simple. And um, you know, this is a delicious, this is a delicious drink. Yeah, that clarified juice isn't easy though. That's the key. Right. Exactly. But to me, like, that's good use of technology right there. Yeah, I agree. That's a drink people have that drink and they say, hey, you know what? I would like another one of those instead of, hey, that's interesting. Can I have something else? You know what I mean? And that's what you hope for. central maturity without everything, you know, that's generally what it comes around to is. People have like kind of played around and found the little tricks that get them into it, and then they start taking it seriously, you know, and that's when you start getting interesting stuff. As long as it's not too serious. Right, we said. Right, right. Well that's the thing. I mean, you know, it's, yes, it should, I like it when people take their craft seriously, but they don't beat you over the
+
+[20:02] head. They don't make you feel good or bad or, you know. Disguise the effort a little bit. Exactly, exactly. All right, so another thing I like to work on, and there's a lot of new, both techno and retro going on now is distillation. And I know you're really interested in this, Dave, you don't want to talk about maybe the new movement for
+
+[20:18] very, like, micro and craft distillation. Yeah, this is this is something that's spawned heated debate lately. on the web, in person. We all just got back from Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans, the annual booze fest for sort of
+
+[20:34] high-end bartenders, mixologists, and people who want to sell them things. A lot of those. A lot of those. How much money do you think Perno Ricard laid out for that year? Oh my God, 100s of 1000s of dollars, it seems like. But anyway, yeah, nicely done. But, uh, and this is one of the things that's like a perennial source of debate, uh, it's right now we're in the midst of this Renaissance and small scale distilling in the US. It turns out laws have been liberalized. This is one good thing that the Republican hatred of regulation has brought us to balance it against losing the
+
+[21:11] golf and all that other stuff. Oh, well, at least we got Buddhists. I would say deregulation has been a net loss, but yeah, but at least we got microbooze. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you know, what happens, there are a lot of people who have started up and they don't really have, they haven't spent years distilling. They haven't trained to do this. They're entrepreneurs. They buy some grain neutral spirit from Archer Daniels Midland. They put some botanicals in it. you know, sort of what they heard goes into gin. They run it through the still that they've bought gleaming new, you know, sort of steel still, some maybe some copper plates inside. And then they bottle it and suddenly they're craftspeople. I mean, they're good business people. It's interesting. But that's, I don't think that's craft distilling. I brought an example that we here in the studio can taste that you guys will just have to either dream about or
+
+[22:01] think see in your nightmares. Wait a minute. Let me let me get the sound effect proper. Oh yeah. This is from Holland, from the Dutch Geneva Museum, Geneva
+
+[22:12] being Dutch gin, which is sort of a, it's actually a cross between gin and whiskey. And this is made from rimealt and barley
+
+[22:20] malt, and a little bit of juniper berry made in 18th century stills, completely crafted by hand, by a guy who's been doing it for 15 years, only available at the
+
+[22:31] museum. And it's utterly unlike anything you'll ever taste. Let's taste this. And then while we're tasting it, we have a question coming in, I think. Okay. Let's taste it. taste this. That is different. You can smell the, what's the grain bill on this? It's two-thirds rye, 13rd barley malt. Wow, it's really nice. It's grainy, it's totally smooth and clean. It's silky. It aged a little bit. Botanical's way down. This is craft distilling. And, you know, a lot of this stuff is just not craft. It's delicious. It's interesting, but this takes a real commitment, you know? This has done over like coal-fired stills, uh, utterly everything is done in the 18th century style. Everything is handmade, and this is handmade by one guy. Let's give the name on this product again. This is old Sheidam, original single malt Geneva. You've got to go to Sheidam and Holland to get it. It's worth the trip. Cheers, Sheidon. Cheers. Okay, we have a question. Who do we have on the line? Hi, this is Wendy from Brooklyn. Hey, Wendy. Hi. Um, I'm actually new to New York City and um, I was wondering, Dave, if you could uh, recommend any mixologists in the city who you really like. There's so many. I mean, 10 years ago, there were about 5 bars where you could get a great cocktail in New York. Now they're at least 50. I mean, if you go to uh, Death and Company, uh, anybody there will make a great drink. Anybody will make a great drink at Pegu Club or PDT. I mean, these places all have programs now. It used to be, you'd go there and you'd catch the good, good guy or the good girl behind the
+
+[24:11] bar, and you'd get a good drink, and then you'd go back the next time it'd be somebody else, and it wouldn't. But now like Clover Club in Brooklyn. Where do you live? She's somewhere in Brooklyn Yeah, somewhere in Brooklyn. She still there? Do we still have her on the line? No, okay. Oh, well, because, you know, now you've got options all over Brooklyn, too. There's there's 19th Street in Manhattan has a couple great bars. Rye House is a new one that's fun and excellent. It's fantastic. I mean, it's a shame we lost her because the real operative question is, what kind of drink do you like? experience do you like? Because there's so many, you know, it's gone beyond, you know, you just sit down
+
+[24:50] at people, people have created whole kind of the bar as
+
+[24:54] an, as a certain type of experience. You know, if you want, you know, fun tiki, we can get you
+
+[24:59] now high quality fun tiki, if you want, you know, it would. You can go to Painkiller on the lower east side and have like a drink out of half pineapples and have, you know, the drink actually be carefully made by people
+
+[25:10] who don't just throw throw crap into a blender and dump it out again. That's just not usually my stomach, but, you know, we were there together and I had a good time when I was there. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. You know? I mean, it's a real Renaissance. This is, I mean, the golden age, certainly not since, you know, 1920 have we seen anything this
+
+[25:29] good, and this is probably better than then too, at least at the high end. Yeah, so it's cool. All right, so Wendy, I'm sorry that we lost you. So let's talk more about this product because I'm still drinking it. So, yeah, I mean, this is, this is what, like, sort of craft entails is, everything is done by hand, small
+
+[25:52] production. They mash their own grain on the site. They distill it 3 times in these ancient. I think they're restored stills, but they're built exactly, you know, to the ancient style. It goes through the still 3 times and then gets stored in pits in the floor, which was a fire prevention thing, is you
+
+[26:12] keep your distilled below grade level. is actually dangerous. It's actually dangerous. Yeah. And these are little tiny distilleries. The way the Dutch always did it. They didn't have big mega distilleries. They had lots of little ones and they all made more or less the same thing. You know, they had traditional ways and, uh, and you would buy your stuff on the spot market. Okay, your gin is good. Your gin is maybe less good. We'll get the good one, but, you know, that kept them competing to have the quality up. There weren't these big monopolies. Right, I mean, I wish you guys, you know, could smell the nose on this thing because it goes on forever. Yeah. No, I mean, it's really... It's unique. It doesn't smell like any other spirit. It's not, you know, there's nothing else like this. Uh, that's, that's sort of what I want, what I hope to see from craft distilling is come up with stuff that I've never tasted
+
+[26:59] before. Come up with stuff that just is so different and so cool. I mean, part of the problem with, I think, with craft desolation. And I'm going to insult people, you know, that I actually that I like, people that I actually like, I'm about to insult them. But not because I want to, just because it's, you know, people want to get into, for instance, the whiskey business, but they want to have product inside of a year.
+
+[27:23] You know what I mean? Yeah, those 2 are not compatible. You know, it's your business model is good for a business model. It's not good for a craft model. Right. But, you know, but I think that the desire is good. They just want to have product, but it's, you know, the problem is, is that that's why, you know, these are traditions that were built up over a long time. If someone just take a long time to get it right, you know? And I mean, it takes years to age whiskey, at which point your capital is tied up, and
+
+[27:48] that's, admittedly, that sucks, but, you know, that is sort of what it takes to
+
+[27:55] make, like, really, you know, barrel aged, well-aged spirits. There's a lot of speed aging going on. They put things in little tiny barrels and kind of speed it up a
+
+[28:06] little. And that can work. It's just not, you know, the same as the, those seasons in and seasons out of the, the, the spirits going in and out of the wood
+
+[28:15] as, as, as it can uh, expands in the summer and contracts in the winter, et cetera, et cetera. Right. I mean, the proofs and the palate, but I think that if you go and look, most of the time, you know,
+
+[28:27] train palettes can they will pick out the ones that have been aged for longer. But this stuff is, you know, this is coming. I mean, the smart people and there are many of them. and the good craftsmen at this are they have stuff that's aging that, you know, in
+
+[28:41] 2 or 3 years is going to be out on the market. It's going to be fabulous. And that's going to be really exciting. It's just right now it's hard to get utterly excited about it for me because I have to taste a lot of this stuff
+
+[28:52] professionally like blind tasting. And, you know, it's you're competing against a pretty well established bar, pretty high bar. Right. I mean, I know that when I, you know, when I do distillation, I'm not really working on creating new, like a new, a new spirit or
+
+[29:09] new, or even an old one. I'm more interested in flavor, putting flavors into things. I mean, that's, I think, a different, that's a different thing. It's a different process. I mean, I'm not saying, I'm not saying there's skill involved, obviously, because sometimes I do a good job and sometimes I do a bad job and, you know, I learn more every time I do a distillation run and, you know, been doing it for, you know,
+
+[29:29] uh, 4 years now or so and you learn more all the time, but it's not the same. It's not the same thing. I'm trying to do something different. I wouldn't say it's in the same category as basically someone making this. Right. It's a different, a different thing altogether. Yeah, but I mean, I would like to see more of that, you know? I'd like to see people making new spirits from grains that haven't been used before. I'd like to see people making handcrafted liqueurs from scratch. You know, stuff like that. you know, using distilling their own base spirit, taking wine, making, you know,
+
+[30:06] nice fresh brandy and then flavoring that with oranges and making like an old school orange Corusau. Everybody would use that. It's just, I just don't see the need to kind of keep making gin and vodka the same way that everybody
+
+[30:21] else is. You know? It's like, okay, that's all right, but you know, before we go to break, we're going to have to go to break in a second. You mentioned before, they buy a lot of their straight liquor from Archer, Daniel, ADM. And so, we just recently, you would love this. Next time you're at the French culinary where, you know, where we are. We ordered from a chemical lab, 200 proof ethanol. we ordered a crap ton of it at check this out. We only paid, I think, like $16 a liter for it for
+
+[30:49] 200, straight 200 and hydrous alcohol. This stuff is Remo has no... Yeah, nothing, right? just alcohol. Yeah, no, and we diluted it down to 40 and we were drinking, god damn, this is sweet. We're like, this vodka you ever had? Oh my god, no, seriously, it's the best ever. And it's so cheap. Makes Smirnoff look spendy. So cheap. Oh my goodness. craziness. Anyway, really funny. All right, cooking issues coming back at you in a couple minutes.
+
+[31:27] Bad, bad whiskey. Bad,
+
+[31:38] bad whiskey. Bad, bad whiskey. Made me lose my happy home. When I live homeless morning. I promise I would think. To stay real straight and sober. I swore I wouldn't drink. Bad, bad whiskey. Bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey made me arose my happy home. I passed up all the pool hearts. Gave the boss and slip. Before the night was over. I started in to say Bad, bad biscuit. Bad, bad this kid. Bad, bad, bad whiskey. Baby, you lose my happy home. My buddy had a party. The cats were on... You were listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm the host of cooking issues, Dave Arnold, calling with all of your cooking and today drink related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. You still have some time to call in. We have Dave Wondridge in the studio. Dave Wondridge has won a zillion awards both for his magazine writing and for the, you know, he's written, of course, the
+
+[33:28] Esquire cocktail books, so several of them. How many of those editions? I actually only wrote one of them, but that was the last one. Okay, all right. The one I have anyway. You wrote the one I have. And, you know, wrote imbibe, which was, well, actually, before we go into what you're working on in, you know, at the moment, why don't you talk a little bit because
+
+[33:46] imbibe was kind of a landmark cocktail book. And, you know, and it was it was had kind of a unique premise for cocktail books. Well, it was sort of the right book at the right time. Imbibe is, is, uh, purportedly a biography of Jerry Thomas, who wrote the 1st bartender's guide, but since he was a bartender, you know, the materials, I had enough materials at the time to maybe write 30 pages of good biography.
+
+[34:11] And then the rest was, I talked about his drinks and where they came from and all the tools that he would have used and his fellow bartenders.
+
+[34:19] And then I had just chapters of recipes with, I gave the original recipe and then kind of talked about how I would go about recreating them.
+
+[34:27] And that actually, before imbibed,
+
+[34:32] there'd been a lot of fabulous cocktail books, but I think Imbibe was one of the 1st books written acknowledging that fact.
+
+[34:38] You know, it was like, okay, you already have the wonderful basic cocktail books. You already have a couple vintage cocktail books. You've already got Dale DeGroff's craft of the cocktail, Gary Regan's joy of mixology. Both excellent books. Both excellent books, Ted Hayes, vintage spirits and forgotten cocktails. You've got those. So this is for those people, you know, so the people who already have an
+
+[35:00] overview and it was kind of, let's get back deep into detail into the 19th century. Find out what is discoverable about how American bartending evolved and became what it is. And, you know, I was the right guy at the right time for that, I guess. Well, I think it really hit a chord because, you know, there's so many people in the cocktail world who, um, you know, the mode for a long, for a long
+
+[35:24] time, for the past 8 years, let's say, five, 5 to 8 years in cocktail world of people who actually knew what the hell is going on was to kind of was a kind of recapturing of lost knowledge and
+
+[35:33] hunger for history, I think. But those people didn't have anyone doing any actual modern scholarship on it.
+
+[35:39] You know, you had a couple of older books, like what was that called? Wild West. Yeah, Wild West Bartenders, Bible or something. Which is a good book. The book, yeah. A lot of kind of bad histories also, but I think people were really kind of hungering for this sort of book. And so I think it just hit the right chord. Well, I think the one really good decision I made on that book was to address technique in
+
+[36:00] detail. You know, instead of just giving the recipe, I broke each one down, talked about the techniques to execute it, the ingredients at some
+
+[36:10] length. You know, I just went on and on about this stuff, but it walks people through the
+
+[36:14] recipe rather than just saying, go figure it out yourself. We've given you the tools. I think that actually was helpful to a lot of bartenders because I go to a lot of bars and I do see it behind the bar, which is very flattering and means that I can try to twist their arms into getting free drinks. Right. Well, it's extremely well-received book, at least in, you know, in the circles I run in. Uh, you know, I have it. I read it. I like it a lot. But, uh, so now you're coming off this book, this book, maybe what was that, 3 years ago, 3 years
+
+[36:44] ago, yeah, 2007, end of 2007. Okay, so you're coming off of this book, and this book is about a very deeply American subject, and, you know, the history is really, you know, it's very, it's very American field book, right? And then you're coming off of that and now you're working on punch and punch is a little bit different, right? Yeah, I mean, originally I had a huge chapter on punch bowl drinks in the Jerry Thomas
+
+[37:07] manuscript, and my manuscript is way too long, and my editor said, you know, we can't publish this. It's way too long. You got to cut something. And I looked at it again. I said, you know, none of these punch bowl drinks, turn up in like old
+
+[37:19] newspapers, uh, about American drinking. And it turns out, you know, they were probably put in there by Jerry's
+
+[37:25] publisher just to kind of make the length. And he didn't really engage them in any way. And I realized that's because they were really English drinks. So once I cut that book, it gave that part, it gave the Jerry Thomas book focus, but it also kind of gave me my next
+
+[37:39] book because I got to go back and deal with this stuff. And this is a story that kind of that takes me much back into England and British, I guess you could call it the British invention of
+
+[37:51] mixology, of mixing strong drinks based on spirits. And it really comes out to have been a British innovation and this invention of punch or discovery of it. Nobody, like the martini, nobody will ever know exactly how it came to be, but you can certainly figure out the conditions under which it was created, mostly sailors running out of wine and
+
+[38:14] beer and needing something now. So what era are we doing? We're talking the early 1600s, maybe the very end of the 1500s. Right, so, you know, back before we were us anyways. Yeah, it's not old. It's not like we couldn't have invented it. No, no, we just didn't get the chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and it was certainly very popular in America before it was popular in Britain, but the sailors. It was English sailors as far as I can tell, although it could possibly have been Dutch
+
+[38:39] once too. We won't talk about that. Right, but like Dutch in the actual Dutch sense, not Dutch, meaning bad or fake. Yeah, no, no. Yeah. Real, real, real, real. She's eating Holland. Now, the, just about punch for a second, maybe you can talk a little bit, you know, the, about the pop kind of fake etymology, you said it was fake that punch means only that punch comes from fun. Yeah, I mean, there's this idea that punch comes from the Indian word for five,
+
+[39:07] which is, you know, punch is like Hindistani because punch has 5 ingredients, strong, you know, spirits, water, citrus,
+
+[39:15] sugar, and spice. Now, often it had 4 ingredients, often it had 6 ingredients. So that's put that beside the thing. Put that to the side. There's also, it only, this comes back to one guy's theory, who was a classical scholar who visited India in the 1680s, you know, almost like 60, 80 years after
+
+[39:33] punch was invented. And he says this, because he seemed learned, it gets picked up and becomes
+
+[39:40] orthodoxy and nobody ever really questioned it till a guy in like around 1900 working for the Oxford English dictionary put out an article saying, you know, this is maybe a little bit fishy.
+
+[39:51] And I only found that article after I'd been sort of come to the same conclusion. So I was very pleased to find it. Well, it must really be fishy because the OED, as great as they are, has always sucked with food
+
+[40:02] etymology anyway. Yeah, exactly. And this guy's art, this guy put out this article because they wouldn't use his theory in the dictionary. Oh, yeah. And he questions it pretty strongly. As, you know, it's like, why the English didn't mangle suddenly, somehow didn't mangle this one word out of all the words that they mangled, you know? It's like, okay. There's that. There's the fact that punch was an English word for kind of round things in general and bowls, et cetera. There's all kinds of stuff. So one really does has grounds to question that etymology. It certainly shouldn't be printed as like gospel truth and moved on from as it is. So it's a tangled tale, the history of punch. It gets very complicated. There are lots of byways and interesting factors that have barely been researched. So I'm sure somebody will write a book that will prove that everything I say in mine is wrong. Before we look forward to it. Before we go, I realize that we've been talking about punch, but we haven't really told people who don't know what the hell punch is, who think it's Hawaiian
+
+[41:06] punch, maybe. What punch is, and kind of like, you know, just give a quick, because like, because they can make us leave soon, let's give them a quick hit of what it is, and then let's talk about a couple
+
+[41:14] recipes maybe to give people an idea. Oh, easy. Now, originally, punch, you know, we think of it as like frat house
+
+[41:20] punch where you dump a bunch of stuff into a garbage can or then there's like the food magazine punches with lots of sparkling wine and sliced
+
+[41:28] fruits and they're very pretty and nice and delightful, but punch was originally as serious as a martini.
+
+[41:33] I mean, it was liquor and very strong flavorful liquor at that. water, sugar, citrus juice, nutmeg, tea, various spices, all put up in a bowl. ice came later. A very easy way to make punch. Well, actually, my favorite way is you peel 3 lemons with a swivel bladed peeler, right? and put the peels to try to get as little of the white pith as possible, put them in a bowl, put in 6 ounces, you know, 3 quarters of a cup of super fine sugar, muddle them up
+
+[42:07] together, and let it sit for an hour, and you'll find that the lemon peel pulls
+
+[42:11] out the sugar pulls out all the oil from the lemon peel over that time, and you get this thick lemony paste that's
+
+[42:17] delightful. Then add 6 ounces of lemon juice. Stir it up. pour in a bottle of cognac, or you can put in dark rum, navy rum, all kinds of good stuff like that. ice and about a quart of water, gray nutmeg on the top and you're done. And it's in really, it's all about the fellowship. It's all about sitting around with your friends, everybody drinking the same thing, sharing it, talking about it,
+
+[42:49] talking about whatever, and making sure you don't leave anything left in the bottom of the
+
+[42:54] bowl. Well, you know, you can pre-batch certain aspects of your of your punch and make, for instance, you can make a batch with
+
+[43:00] it with the citrus called shrub. Yeah, you can leave the liquor out and the water. Leave the liquor and most of the water out and you can bottle it and it'll keep for a long time. Right, and well, it has a different flavor from fresh. It's an aged flavor. It's a different flavor. Yeah, it's not quite as sharp and bright, but if you let the solids settle out. and strain it. You'll get something that's pretty mellow and tasty. And by the way, not worse, just different. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but for all of those recipes, I apologize, you will have to purchase his book, which is coming out. coming out November 2nd from Parag books. You could probably pre-order sooner than that on Amazon, and I encourage you to do that. We have one more question that we're going to leave with, but before we're going to actually leave on the question. So, uh, because it's a good one. It's always a good one to answer and I want to hear Dave's answer as well. But you have been listening to cooking issues today brought to you by the Whole Foods Whole Foods market. But here's the question we're going to leave the show on. It comes from Phil and Dave, if you go to I'm going to read this verbatim. If you go to a crappy dive bar and your date wants a cocktail, what are the safe cocktails to order? Well, I'll get, I'll say what my wife Karen always ordered, which works incredibly well. Myers on the rocks with a splash of pineapple juice. There you go. Done. Done. Finished. Contains its own instructions. Alrighty. Well, thanks, thanks for coming in. Well thank you so much. Come again, please. You've been listening to cooking issues on the Heritage radio network. Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh,
+
+[44:29] you did. Got me on this corner. I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you
+
+[0:12] did that. Got me on this corner. Hello, you're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in,
+
+[0:26] hopefully, with your cooking related questions, technology related or not. The number to call into the studio here is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I'm here in the studio today with cooking issues, Hammer, Nastasia Lopez. Uh, and uh, we have some uh, email questions in. But before that, today's cooking issues is brought to you by Fairway, like no other market, they have at least 3 locations I know of, one up in
+
+[0:52] Harlem where I used to live, up where my studio was back when I did the art thing. They have a huge walk in meat, like meat refrigerator there, which is pretty nice. Great cheese section. Then, of course, the original Midtown, I guess, uptown, really, 70 in
+
+[1:05] Chain Street on Broadway, and one right here in Red Hook, Brooklyn, close by to where our studio is. So Fairway, like no other market. Okay, so, uh, Nastasia, we had a couple of questions in, uh, via email. Last weekend this week. Yep. Yeah. So let's let's take a look at take a look at some of these. Oh, yeah, by the way, we're here from noon to 1245 every Tuesday. Okay. That's 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. Okay, so we had a question coming in from Richard. It says, uh, some friends and I saw miracle fruit on a TV show and ordered some powdered fruit to do a tasting experiment this
+
+[1:43] weekend. Do you guys have any thoughts on this flavor inverting fruit? Have you tried it? How does it work? Yada, yada. Okay, well, yes, we love the miracle fruit. There's a bunch of different ways you can get it. You can buy the fresh frozen berries. You can buy freeze dried powder, and you can also dry compressed tablets. known as like miracle fruities or whatnot. No matter how you do it, right? The active principle from this, the miracle fruit is a protein called miraculous. And what miraculous does. Now you're talking about my memory because I haven't actually researched it in a long time, but if memory serves, what miraculous does is it binds to your sour receptors and causes, sorry, it binds to your sweet receptors and causes things that taste sour, things that are
+
+[2:31] acidic, to also activate your sweet sensor. So basically, things that have acidity, things that are sour, taste sweet. Now, um, the effect doesn't last forever. You want to put it in your mouth, make sure it coats, don't swallow it right away, coat your whole tongue with
+
+[2:44] it. And usually, depending on how strong, how big a dose it is, how strong the one you have, it can last anywhere from like 15 minutes to half hour or so. And basically anything that has acidity in it is going to be modified. The acidity actually doesn't go away. So the effect of when you're sucking on a lemon is that it tastes like lemonade. Typically, I mean, people like to taste all sorts of things when they do it, like vinegar and, you know, a friend of ours, Clifford, who was an intern at the French culinary with us, just graduated recently, used to do these flavor tripping parties, and he loved
+
+[3:14] tasting like cheap tequila. He said, tasted really good, right, Nastasia? Um, things like radishes he really liked. But, you know, I'm kind of an old school guy. And what happens is, is I cut up like 10, 15, 20
+
+[3:26] limes and then I just start sucking on the limes, like rapid fire because I can't get enough until my lips are bleeding from the acid and your stomach feels like it's about to drop out
+
+[3:35] because, remember, it doesn't actually take the acid away. So it's still eating away your enamel and your lips and your stomach. It's just you feel compelled to kind of keep eating them. What else does Clifford really like? He liked, uh... Yeah, vinegar, and yeah. I mention that hot peppers. He liked, like, jalapeno pepper said, did something, but, you know,
+
+[3:55] really, just get an array of things that have any sort of acidity to them, and then just start pounding them. I mean, that's basically my recommendation. Right? No. What do you mean? ? You don't need all the ass. Well, you know, nastasias. you know, constitution is not as iron as mine. So anyway, so yes, we highly recommend the miracle fruit. And if you want to do it under a controlled, you know, circumstances, come to the Harold McGee lecture series at the French
+
+[4:19] culinary where we not only eat miracle fruit, we also eat something called gymnic acid, the sugar destroyer, which what happens is tastes
+
+[4:28] awful. Tastes like you're licking the bottom of a rabbit's cage or something. It's completely awful tasting, but that's not the point. The point is it erases your sense of sweet. So anything that has sugar in it, all of a sudden the sugar is completely wiped out, but everything else stays the same. And it's, we do, you know, we do the miracle fruit, which is fun, and then we do the genemic acid, which is very, very instructive, because it allows you to taste all kinds of products that you don't think of as being sweet.
+
+[4:52] And then basically seeing what happens when you actually do erase all sweetness from it. So, um, strawberries, I guess, what you do think of a sweet, become preposterously acidic without when the sense of sweet is knocked out. So these are things you can come experience live with Harold McGee at the Harold McGee lecture series. I't know where the next one is. October, November, something like that. You know, go to the French culinary website. Okay, thank you, Richard, for that question. Okay, so we have a question in from Julia that says she's a recent grad student. She, uh, grad students recently married and is beginning to invest in cookware that she wants to last basically
+
+[5:30] forever and she wants to get a Dutch oven. I have a Dutch oven. I love my Dutch oven. She says that, you know, she looked at Staub, and also at the Le Crusade, and she doesn't like the plastic knob on the Le Crusade, and she's like,
+
+[5:43] why the hell do they use a plastic knob? Well, that plastic knob is true. I mean, it's you can put it in the oven, that plastic, but it does, I mean, I'll tell you from experience, that knob does chip. Here's the good news. You can unscrew that knob and put kind of any knob you want on it. I don't really know of the quality difference between La Crusade and Staub. I think they're both... someone's going to call in and tell me I'm a jerk for saying this. I haven't used a style a lot, but I bet they're probably fundamentally similar. Both of those Dutch ovens are enameled on the inside, so you have an enameled surface. You can also buy Dutch ovens that aren't enameled, that are standard cast iron. You know, the use of that's going to be a little different. You want to be careful with your enamel cast iron that you don't get it too, too, too hot over an open flame because you can get popping of the enamel.
+
+[6:27] I've never had that happen to me, but I've had people report in. If you go to the cooking issues website and look at our um, cat, we have a post on cast iron cookware, and basically the heat properties of cast iron, and, you know, kind of the myth, there's a lot of myths around what cast iron can and can't
+
+[6:43] do, and, you know, why it's good and why it's not. And, uh, you know, I spent a lot of time on that, on that trying to, trying to think about that post. In fact, I was supposed to write it for somebody for another magazine and they said it was too boring and technical. But anyway, but I still recommend you go look at it. And there's a bunch of people who commented in that post on enameled cast iron specifically, and I believe Dutch oven, Dutch ovens in La
+
+[7:05] Crusade. So if you go to that post, you can check it out on www.cookingissues.com.
+
+[7:11] And by the way, I don't know why they use La Crusade on the Food Network instead of Staub. I guarantee you, La Crusade gave him that stuff for free. So, I mean, I wouldn't. I mean, I have lacrosse at home, and I purchased it, but I wouldn't take the fact that it's on the food network as any indication of its quality versus Staub. Anyway. Thank you, Julia. I hope that answers your question. And then this one I'm literally just reading for the 1st time. So I'm not even going to, I don't even have the time to think about it. So you're going to hear my 1st cuff reaction. It comes from Pete Stapleton in Detroit and says, I know this must sound like a stupid question, but there's
+
+[7:45] no stupid questions. That's what they always used to tell me before I asked a stupid question. I would love to hear Dave's advice for cooking pasta. What temperature is best? Does it matter if you boil quickly than reduce heat, adding salt, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, I'm a novice who loves listening to the show. Thank you very much. I love you listening to the show. And would like to answer some questions. Okay, now, here's the thing. There are, so a friend of ours, friend of the school, friend of the show, Cesare Casella,
+
+[8:12] is, you know, renowned Italian chef from Tuscany here in the city, just goes to show you how far afield from normal pasta cooking that you can go if you want
+
+[8:21] to. Man sometimes cooks his pasta like a risotto. Now don't do this with something like that's, you know, long, but like thinner things that you can stir around. He'll literally, like, I think he does, he fries it a little bit first, right, like risotto, right? Nistachia? Yeah, fries it a little bit for some water in oil, just like a risotto, you know, sautes. And then just starts adding liquid slowly and then it's absorbing liquid and then basically you keep all the starches then and are released and it becomes like a creamy, creamy, uh, creamy pasta. You're not losing all the starch to the cooking water. So if you want a starchy risotto-like thing, you can cook pasta that way. That just shows how far afield you can go from normal pasta cooking and still get a good result. The tricks with pasta are this. One, yes, salt your water. Why? Not because it's going to raise the temperature. By the way, boiling water is probably the easiest temperature. I don't think it's really crucial but just, you know, boiling water is fine. The only time you don't want to go super boiling is when you're doing something delicate like a ravioli, it's going to get the crappy out of it, and the thing, it's going to explode. Then you want to, then you want to lower the temperature of your, of your water a little bit just so it's not rolling around. You want to use salt for flavor. You know, the inside of pasta has relatively low salt, low flavor. I mean, you know, don't yell at me for that. But anyway, like add salt, mainly for flavor, it doesn't increase the temperature enough for it to make a difference.
+
+[9:34] The other thing is, you know, you're gonna, it doesn't, you're gonna want to pull your pasta a little bit in advance,
+
+[9:39] uh, just because, uh, hopefully when you're adding it to a sauce, it's gonna integrate some of that sauce into the pasta and finish off cooking. So you're going to want to pull it a little bit early and then toss it. Sometimes if you have a really thin sauce, you could toss it, you know, over the heat a little
+
+[9:54] bit and the pasta's going to absorb, absorb some of that sauce, when it's, when it's finishing. There's lots and lots to say about pasta and cooking. Um, you know, I would get a higher, a higher quality pasta is also going to help a pasta that's gone
+
+[10:09] through, uh, really rough dye, holds on to sauce, better bronze dye. So, you know, I would go that way. But I encourage you to ask more questions and I will think longer and more specifically about your
+
+[10:19] positive questions, but I hope I've said something of interest to you, Pete. Please keep listening and thank you for your question. Oh, we have some callers on the line. Who do we have? Hello? Hello? Oh, hi. How are you doing? Yeah, my name's Ernesto. calling in from Boston. Hey, how you doing, Ernesto? Oh, the topic you were just cut, got them. Uh, I also, uh, check out, uh, the, uh, ideas and food websites pretty constantly. Your website's awesome. I'm constantly on it. And there's the, uh, the whole pre-shoked dry method that they've been drying, and I've been doing it, but, yeah, which drives pasta where he pre-shokes, where you
+
+[11:01] pre-shoke it before you actually cook it, to reduce the cooking time. Right. Now, I've been doing the trial and error, and sometimes it gets a little too over soaked,
+
+[11:10] is there something, have you ever exterminated with this at all and have like more of a guideline or time kind of thing for me? No, now I feel bad. I have not experimented with this. Nastasia, has Cesare ever experimented with this? No, I mean, look, I mean, like, this is the kind of thing that sounds like a great technique. It's not so much, for me, it wouldn't be so much at, I mean, time, because possible is pretty darn quick, but it is a big energy savings. So, you know, and big energy in terms of your, you know, your heating bill, being your air conditioning bill in the summer when you're boiling water. Is it mainly for energy savings or they want to do it for time savings? Well, actually, Alex from Ideas of Foodie infuses flavors into it, where he did
+
+[11:51] it where he did it with mozzarella water that actually adds flavor to the pasta before. But see, I've tried it, and I've gone a little too far, and it seemed like the pasta was a little too shoggy at losers, kind of like that. Dante thing. Because you reduce the cooking times in maybe like 2 minutes. But the actual soak time, you know, I guess, as far as I've tried it with, like, uh, spaghetti and
+
+[12:12] and pasta, like that, but it seems like it works better with, uh, thicker cut pasta. Right. I mean, I... Because the thinner, it just gets too soggy, and I'm just trying to gauge the time and wondering if you knew a kind of like a
+
+[12:24] basic, um, minimum time that you might need to with different sizes pasta. But maybe that'd be something you guys can do for the cooking issues website, too. Yeah, I'll definitely check out. I'll check out Alex's and Aki's thing and see what they're doing with. I mean, I've cooked pasta in flavored stuff. I guess the advantage of soaking is it doesn't require quite as much, but one of the issues you're going to get a lot of leaching of flavor out when you do boil it back in a large quantity of water.
+
+[12:49] I mean, that's something you might want to do, risotto style, the way Cesare does, unless you really don't want that creamy starchist. But I'm definitely, I'll definitely check that out and maybe we'll put something in the forums on it, right, Sasha? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway, thanks a lot for your question. It's definitely a lot to think about with pasta this morning. So thank you. Okay, we have someone else. Hi, it's Chef from New York City. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing well, thanks. How are you? doing well. I've got a question about meat glue. I kind of test it out, but I don't necessarily want to invest in a £2 you know, £2 bag of it. Is there any, you know, local sources? So we can get something that's a little more reasonable? That's an excellent question. What do they charge now for a kilo? I like 86, 88, something like that. This is something I need to investigate. It used to be that you could call up Bob Tene, who's the local Agina Moto. By the way, but if those of you that don't know what's going on, people who aren't kind of like, you know,
+
+[13:47] tech people, meat glue is an enzyme translutaminates that you can use to bind any 2 proteins together. It's derived from a soil enzyme. It's totally natural. It's destroyed by cooking. There's no known, um, there's no known problems with it. I've read several. I've read like six, 700 pages on the safety transcotaminates. It in your body right now. It's like part of the thing that helps your skin get created. It's part of the stuff that helps blood clot. This particular one is unique in that it doesn't require calcium. very easy to use. You just sprinkle the powder onto meats. You put 2 meats together, and they stick together after about 4 hours, and you can glue anything, basically cow, donkey, chicken, moose, whatever. You can glue it all together, and it's not just for special effects. It really helps you make really nice portions that cook very consistency. It's very consistently very good. Problem is, is that you have to invest in a kilo of it and then you have to keep it in a freezer. Otherwise, it goes bad. It does last a long time in the freezer. It used to be when you call Bob Tene from the Genomoto, who makes the stuff. He's the New York City rep for it, that you could get a sample before you invested. Do they not do that anymore? You know what? I've been trying to get a hold of him, but I haven't able to, to reach out for him, but I'll, you know, try
+
+[14:59] again, see if I can get a sample or something, that's a little more. Yeah, okay. Yeah. The sample pack, they'll usually send you one sample pack. They used to. I mean, the chef, the desire for it among chefs has really increased, and so it's not as easy, maybe. I don't know. I haven't tried in a long time. I'll tell you this though. You know, another way to do it. I don't think it's something because we don't buy that stuff in bulk mustaches. So we don't, like, it's not like we could, we could, it's possible that we could, uh, repack it because I know, but I don't know that they want us to repack it. Do you know what I mean? Whereas, like, with Sanctuary, I think they only sell it by the kilo as well, and Dairyland used to carry it here in New York, and I think they only sell it by the kilo. You're not going to be disappointed. Let me put it that way. It's worth 30 bucks. You're not going to be disappointed. It's like one of the great products in the world, but you want to keep it in your freezer. Uh, because what happens is if there's any moisture, the uh, the enzyme basically gets ruined and then you're out, um, you're out the product. You know, so, but you're not going to be sorry getting it, but try to get try to get a sample if you can. And thanks so much for your question, we have to go to our 1st break. Alright, thanks a lot. Thanks.
+
+[16:08] Oh, how you feel, brother? You feeling good? Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. to know you're in here. How you feel, Bella? Hey, yeah. You're getting down. Look him! We're gonna have a good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now, take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.
+
+[17:03] Bam! Now I want everybody. Let's bread flow by 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go into it every dinner now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. You got James Horn moment. Fred, can you take us higher? Hello, you were listening to cooking issues, and this is Dave Arnold. Call in with all your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So while we're waiting to see if we get another caller in. Let's take some more email questions. So, um, we have, uh, um, let me see, what's the name? Isaac Miller writes in from San Francisco. saying he wants to talk about ice, right? And so he says there's a lot, it's aggravated. There's so many pseudoscientific proclamations about how ice works and says he thinks he heard me say that large ice cubes will keep drinks colder with less dilution than smaller
+
+[18:07] ice. Heaven forfend. I have never, if I ever said anything that gave the impression that I said that, you know, please expunge it from all sorts of records because that is clearly not the case. Let's go through this a little bit. I'm gonna I'm gonna go into my feelings on ice for just a second. Okay, the fundamental rule of all cocktails. This is the fundamental rule of all cocktails. Remember, there is no, remember, bar ice, ice in a
+
+[18:34] bar, is at 0 degree Celsius. If you don't believe me, come to the lab, we'll run the test, but once you take it out of the freezer within 20 minutes or
+
+[18:41] so, all that ice is at 0 degrees. Any deviation it is has from 0 degrees is not going to affect the temperature of your final drink that much for reasons that are too complicated to go into now.
+
+[18:50] But, I mean, if you take ice directly out of the freezer, obviously, it will make a drink colder eventually, if you shake, not necessarily, you stir a very long story. Anyway, so assuming that the ice in your bar is at 0 degrees, Celsius, here is the fundamental law. This is the law, right? There is no chilling other than through dilution, because the only way the ice can chill is through melting, and there is no dilution without
+
+[19:16] chilling, because it requires energy to melt the ice, so that ice has to chill when it is melting.
+
+[19:23] So there's basically a one-to-one relationship. So in the short term, when you're stirring or mixing a drink, you're not losing that much energy to the environment around it, there's pretty much, you know, the temperature and
+
+[19:35] the, uh, and the dilution, the chilling and the dilution are linked together. Now, it doesn't matter then, what size the ice cube is or anything, really. And the big ice cubes are definitely no more cold or ice is ice. I mean, for gram per gram, ice at the same temperature, all stores, the same amount of energy. Now, where do things deviate? The greater the surface area something has? Big ice has a low surface area to volume ratio. So a big chunk of ice is less efficient at chilling because it has less surface
+
+[20:07] area and all the melting and chilling happens at the surface, right? So big ice is going to be less efficient. So when you're stirring with big, big ice cubes, it takes longer to get down to the temperature that you want. And consequently, you're also losing more to the environment, probably, although these effects are negligible. Smaller ice is going to chill relatively faster because it's going to have greater surface area. Now, the other problem is, is that ice at 0 has water on its surface, and the greater the amount of surface area, the more in trained water, the more water is present on the surface of your ice,
+
+[20:37] right? Therefore, smaller ice is going to dilute your drink more because it has more in trained water on it. If you actually put your ice in a salad spinner or in a centrifuge, should you have one, it's not really practical. I'm just saying. Then you, I mean, really, just shake your ice out before you use it. You get all the extra water off. The differences in dilution are going to be negligible. And we've done this through experiment, experiment, experiment, and the differences are negligible. In a stir drink, The speed at which you can get something to chill down with small ice means that you actually will dilute your drink
+
+[21:07] more and it will get colder with small ice, simply because you're not stirring long
+
+[21:11] enough typically, which could take up to a minute with a large chunk of ice to get your drink down to temperature. Um, so ice ice from a, from a, you know, physics standpoint, ice is ice. And then the question is how much water is there on the surface and what is the, and then, you know, what is the, how much water is on the surface and what's your surface
+
+[21:30] area? Those are the 2 important parameters. And then how effective are you? Shaking tends to be so effective that the ice really doesn't matter so
+
+[21:38] much. Stirring, it makes more of a difference. But I have not, because of my extreme laziness, done the post from Tales of
+
+[21:44] the Cocktail, what we're going to discuss ice and stirring in great detail the same way we did shaking last year. Uh, but I hope this answers your question and, uh, you know, please put a comment on the blog and we'll talk, we'll talk more about it. Okay, let me see. Next question from Richard. Oh, no, we already did this one. We did the miracle fruit. Hmm, hmm. Have I answered all the questions? don't think so. I might be missing a question, which case we'll come back to. But I have some good news for eBay wins for myself. Check this out. So, you might know, readers of the blog might know that we have several centrifuges over at the French culinary that I use, and I use them primarily for
+
+[22:26] centrifuge is something that spins and spinning, it separates things based on density. And what can I do with that? Well, we can make really delicious nut oils, like really, I mean, super delicious, fresh, fresh nut oils. We take cured olives and we make an olive oil from it that I think is delicious, but some people think is nasty, but I find it
+
+[22:45] delicious. I like it. And then, and she doesn't like anything. So that's a ringing endorsement. But, you know, recently what we've been doing is we have a technique where we add an enzyme, we blend fruit, and then we clarify, we make fruit juice. And that's mainly what we're doing with it now. We're making gallons and gallons of different kinds of fruit juices every day, but strawberry juice, peach juice,
+
+[23:04] apricot, juice, plum juice. I mean, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Well, anyway, centrifuges are expensive. There's one sweet spot in the centrifuge market, and that's for chefs. And that's what's called a 3 liter benchtop, a 3 liter benchtop centrifuge. They have swinging buckets in them. They take 3 liters. They hold 3 liters for 750 milliliter buckets, and they can all do roughly 4000 G's. Now, this is the sweet spot because 4000 G's is enough to do almost everything we want to do in the lab, in the kitchen, with the exception of clarifying lime juice, but I have other techniques for that.
+
+[23:37] It's relatively small, relatively inexpensive, relatively safe, relatively easy to use. This is something that I think more chefs would get. Anyway, I buy one that's Juan is the model from thermoscientific. I buy it because these are, the company's out of business, but there's still a lot of these on the market and they're relatively inexpensive.
+
+[23:54] I just got one, a refrigerative centrifuge. This thing's worth probably when I say cheap, it's worth probably 2 grand, right? One to 2 grand on eBay. 99 bucks. $99, $79 shipping. This thing shows up, right? I bought it because it said that it wasn't working. I said it wasn't working. Display doesn't come on, lights don't come on. Let me tell you something. If any of you out there are, you know what I'm talking about if you do troubleshooting on equipment. If you don't, listen, this sounds counterintuitive. What you want is to plug something in and have nothing happen at all.
+
+[24:28] Because what this means is something probably happened very early on in the system, something probably fairly easy to fix,
+
+[24:34] right? Right? You know, you don't want to hear that it powers on, and the numbers come on, and it spins at like one quarter speed, and then craps out halfway through spin. this kind of stuff, this is difficult to troubleshoot, right? But nothing at all happening. Bueno, right? So we order this thing, we come in. I crack the thing open, blown fuse. Seriously, a blown fuse. So now we have for like $179, including shipping, an almost, you know, relatively new considering the company went out of business, but like basically pristine refrigerated 3 liter
+
+[25:03] centrifuge that I'm going to modify with a scroboscope so that we can take pictures of things clarifying and make them look like they're standing
+
+[25:09] still. It can be crazy. It's like seriously pimped out. I'm going to pimp the hell out of this thing. It's going to be like a pretty cool centrifuge. Anyways, so, um, yeah, so it just goes to show like with a little bit of troubleshooting and a keen eye for eBay, you know, you guys out there can get some
+
+[25:22] serious, serious deals. Now, here's my other recommendation. This thing came from a blood lab, right? Which means you want to clean the hell out of it. So what we did is we basically soak the inside of this sucker in chlorine,
+
+[25:33] and that's not even going to touch food that we're ever going to eat, but just chlorine the hell out of it. Then I chlorine the hell. Well, I should say, the intern's I didn't do I didn't do squat. Anyway. Yeah. So chlorine the hell out of the buckets, right? And then we pressure cook the buckets because the pressure cooker is like a poor person's autoclave, but what you want to be careful when
+
+[25:51] you're pressure cooking to sterilize. You want to be really careful to make sure that all of the air is out. You want to have the buckets actually underneath the surface of the water when you're pressure cooking, because otherwise you can have an air bubble trap that might not get up to temperature.
+
+[26:03] And at least this is what I say. I don't really know. This is what they say on the sterilizer websites. So I just make sure that the buckets are all the way underwater. We pressure cook them for like 20 minutes. They're made out of aluminum, so the, you know, all of the heat goes into it and it kills whatever might possibly ail you in those things. It came from a bloodlamp? Stasi even drinking, you've been drinking juice out of a blood lab for like a year now, all
+
+[26:25] right? I mean, it's like, you know, it's a question of, can you clean the thing properly? Are you taking the right steps to clean it? Yes, yes, we are. Yes. Anyway. So that is the saga of our $179 centrifuge worth 2 grand that's making me
+
+[26:40] extremely extremely happy. You know, you don't know joy until you've opened up a piece of equipment and seen that really is just a blown fuse that's causing it to not
+
+[26:48] to not work properly. I feel kind of sorry for the people who didn't take the trouble to troubleshoot it, but not that sorry. So it cost you $3 to fix it. You only got shocked once. Well, a little bit shocked. A little bit. Not a lot shocked. No. No. But I'm glad I opened it up, actually, because these centrifuges have what's called an imbalance sensor in
+
+[27:05] them so that when you're not balanced, as they're spinning, because all hell breaks loose, centrifuges and bounds. I mean, like, all hell. I mean, like really bad. Like makes a bad loaded washer seem like nothing. Anyway, so anywho, the imbalance sensor was disconnected. So I did get to catch that. So I'm kind of glad I opened the thing up because some knuckleheaded, disconnected the imbound switch, and that's not something you want to have disconnected. You just, what happens when, when, when it senses it, it's not balanced. It just shuts the whole thing off right away, which stops it from flying
+
+[27:33] apart. Yeah, yeah. Here's the question. Okay, let me see. Oh, well, we have 2 minutes, so. Oh, we have 2 minutes. All right. Well, let me see. We'll see what the. Oh by the way, if you have any questions, call into 718-497-2128 718-497-2128. So, I'm going to probably start this question and then probably have to go to it after break. Paul, Paul Kay writes in and says, I'd be grateful, if you can answer my question about getting meat soft. He's cooking for a population for whom food safety is the utmost important, and the meats must be very tender. Okay. And so he's saying with chicken, he doesn't have a problem getting these characteristics, tenderness,
+
+[28:13] taste, and moistness, but he's having difficulty with turkey, everyone does. Everyone does, brother. Like unless you use low temp or sous vide, and beef, and because food safety issues, he's hesitant to use sous
+
+[28:23] vide. You know, he wants to get him as hot as possible without without really, you know, beating him to heck. Okay, well, here's the thing. First, my pitch versus Sous V'd. First of all, sous vide, I don't know where the regulations are, where you are. I understand your trepidation in using them because if you use it improperly. you know, it might have problems. But sous vide, by the way, for those of you that don't know, is where you put a food in a bag, you seal it, you remove the oxygen, you seal it, you cook it, and then, you know, you can
+
+[28:51] retherm it and then serve it. Properly done. Sous vide is the safest, basically the safest of all cooking techniques, and it allows you to get the entire thing up to temperature. So now if you're willing to take the time and investment to do it. I think sous vide is actually incredibly safe way to provide very, very high quality items. Barring that. You could get a combi oven that can cook at a relatively accurate temperature for something like
+
+[29:16] Turkey. You know, I'd want to take it to like uh, 65 uh, at least, and once you, once, 60, not at least,
+
+[29:23] but I mean, 65, actually at maximum for me, but 65 Celsius uh, is enough if you cook it long enough to kill anything in there, right? And at the same time, it's still going to be very, very moist. So if you had a combi oven, They're quite expensive. You don't have space for that, we can get you get a CVAP oven, which basically is like a holding oven with a Bain Marie in it.
+
+[29:42] It was developed for Kentucky fried chicken. It holds a fairly accurate temperature and you can cook your turkey in there. Uh, at at 60, 64 to 65. I think you're going to really, really like the results. It's going to be extremely tender, extremely juicy, and extremely safe and not require any extra regulations. We have to go to break. I'm going to think a little bit about beef, maybe, and we'll come back with some beef recommendations in a minute. You got to pay back. Revenge.
+
+[30:19] I'm mad. Got to get back. I need some gift back. Hey, back, back. Hey back! That did. Pay back. Ben! I'm a man! He gets down with my girlfriend. That ain't right. Oh! Oh, man. I want to fight. Hey, man, here's a thing, you got to see. Never do any damn thing to me.
+
+[31:15] I saw me out Chicken chain.
+
+[31:18] Yes, you did. I told me you did. They had all arrayed. Hand me down. That's the bank. Welcome back to cooking issues, the show where we take on your cooking issues, most often technically related cooking issues, but not
+
+[31:37] always. Call in to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're going to be here for at least another 15 minutes. Maybe more if you call with a really compelling question, right, Nastasia? Yes, please call. All right, so before the last break, I was answering Paul's question about how to cook meat so that they're tender and also extremely safe,
+
+[32:01] presumably someone who has trouble, you know, man, I don't, maybe like
+
+[32:06] a, I don't know, someone who can't choose something, something needs really tender, but they also really safe, maybe someone
+
+[32:11] immunocompromised, old. I didn't want to say it that way, Nastasia, but, you know, thanks for just, you know, saying that. awesome. Great. Okay. Hope we haven't offended anyone out there. So, uh, anyway, so we discussed Turkey, which I thought should be cooked, uh, probably be, depends, like breast meat, um, leg meat, you need to go at least 65 uh, Celsius from a taste standpoint, not really from a safety
+
+[32:30] standpoint. You can cook it lower if you cook it for a long time. You have the temperature, times, and, you know, on our website, on cooking issues, you can take a look at. Doug Baldwin, I think also has that. has some safety guidelines on his website and his new book. But to beef. So, uh, with beef, um, it depends on how you want to cook it. If you don't want to cook it sous vide, but you want to do low temperature, which is really the only way to guarantee you're not going to overcook
+
+[32:56] the items. Now, if you're gonna do a braise, right? We can all do braises without necessarily overcooking the meat. But if you want to do something that's not a braise, you still want to remain tender, you want to guarantee safety. You're going to have to cook it for a fairly long time. And you want to do lower temperature, I would recommend getting something like a CVAP
+
+[33:13] oven. And as describing it before, It was invented for Kentucky fried chicken to hold Kentucky fried chicken, and basically a hot box with a water bath in the bottom, and the water bath means that you can really kind of accurately control the temperature.
+
+[33:27] In a regular oven, you can't accurately control the temperature because A, you're not getting a lot of good, unless it's convection, you're not getting a really good heat transfer, and plus you're getting evaporative cooling.
+
+[33:37] Moisture is always evaporating off the surface of your food, lowering its temperature. So it's really impossible to judge the internal temperature based on the oven's temperature.
+
+[33:43] With, you know, regular cooking in a CVAP, you can set the humidity at 100% on the
+
+[33:48] inside and you can really, really dial in exactly the internal temperature and really make sure that something is cooked all the way
+
+[33:54] through and yet it's still going to remain juicy. So I'd look at that, but I would really also look into doing low temperature work with a circulator and sous
+
+[34:02] vide, because I, you know, I think that once you make the leap into sous vide, The fantastic thing about sous vide is, is that there's very little potential for recontamination of a product, and so you can have products that are cooked and kept in really good shape and are very, very
+
+[34:16] safe. I mean, there really is no safer way to do it other, you know, than sous vide. so long as it's done properly. I mean, you know, the danger is, obviously, with, you know, with sous vide is that you don't, you don't thermally process properly and that you might leave bacteria in or you might not refrigerate it properly and you might get things growing in the bag like botulism, but, you know, in a properly treated product, that's just not, that's not going to
+
+[34:40] happen if you just treat, treat the food properly. So, Paul, I hope that answered your question. And now, maybe we'll talk about some stuff that we're working on at the school, huh? Yes. So we've been working on water. So for those of you that haven't read Fix the Palms. Fix the Pumps is a book by Darcy O'Neill. It's basically saying, you know, we should take a look at the soda fountain. So the soda fountain was, you know, phenomenon in US back in the day. you know, where you would go and they would make sodas for you, but it was a lot more than that. It had a lot. There was a lot going on, a lot of recipes, a lot of artistry, a lot of X,
+
+[35:18] Y, and Z. So go check out the books, fix the pumps. Um, you know, it's a lot of interesting stuff going on. You should read it. Now, what I was most interested in was a section where he started giving recipes for making your own mineral water, you know, in
+
+[35:34] the vein of other famous mineral waters. like, you know, seltzer was originally water from a place in Germany. Uh, I forget Seltzen or something like that, the town, up until actually, uh, like a decade or 2 ago, you could buy that particular water. Um, and then, um, you know, all the famous waters you can, you, that's known constituents, like a Polinaris, uh,
+
+[35:54] Girlstein, and all these things. And so he gets some of these recipes. So we started experimenting with making our own our own mineral waters. Now, I can't, you know, you know me. I can't be normal about this. So you go on Google books, and it turns out you can get all kinds of books from the late 1800s that have all of
+
+[36:09] the all of the constituents of all the famous mineral waters at the time because people were obsessed with the medicinal qualities of these various different bottles waters.
+
+[36:17] And there's a couple of main constituents that you want to get. And so rather than trying to actually make any of the recipes. What we did is we just got all of the constituents. So, you know, we bought calcium chloride. Actually, I have that because we use that when we use alginate. tastes god awful. It's like, it's hideously terrible stuff. But it's in some famous waters in small amounts. Magnesium chloride, right? Magnesium chloride is better known to people as bittern or nigari. used to as a tofu coagulant. Um, so we, you know, we got some of that. NACL, better known as salt. isn't a lot of things. Uh, calcium uh, and then we also got, so, those were all the chlorides we tasted. You know, and by the way, you see these waters and they list, you know, calcium
+
+[37:07] chloride, magnesium chloride. Like once they go into water, they turn into ions anyway. So it's not like it's not like the calcium knows it belongs to chloride as opposed to the calcium belonging with the carbonate. So anyway, okay. So then we also used magnesium sulfate, which is Epsom
+
+[37:23] salts, which I'll get into later. You don't want to put too much Epsom salts into your waters. You know, one of the things people used to like about bottled waters was bottled waters that were known as purgative, which is fancy for makes you poop. So you want to, you want to stay away from pounding too much magnesium sulfate water as I, unfortunately, found out. So we have magnesium sulfate. We had calcium sulfate, we had calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and potassium, uh, potassium bicarbonate, I think. Yeah. Anyway, yes, passing bicarbonate. And so we basically tasted all of these things separately to see kind of what they
+
+[37:59] tasted like. So in a different concentration. So when we were doing all the chlorides, like calcium chloride, mesium chloride, sodium chloride, we tasted them 2 ways. One where there were equal amounts of the metal ion in it, right? So equal amounts of calcium versus magnesium versus sodium in the water. And then we taste it with equal amounts of chlorine, you know, you know, the chloride iron in it. So equal amounts of CL. And what we noticed is what we thought, the calcium calcium chloride tastes like
+
+[38:25] death, and lower concentrations is not as bad, but it has a bitterness. Um, then, you know, the salt one obviously tastes like salt. The magnesium one was sweet and kind of almost had a milky taste, which was strange because the calcium didn't. But when we carbonated, then the very high amount of one, it all of a sudden went bitter. something that we didn't have when we were tasting it on its own. But we were using much higher concentrations than you would actually use in a normal mineral
+
+[38:53] water. Then in the carbonates, we actually really liked the calcium carbonate
+
+[38:59] water, and it really modified the bubbles because I only care, but by the way, I only care about bubbles. Don't give me flat water, which is like spoiled, spoiled seltzer water. I hate it. you know, flat water is an abomination. You want bubbles in your water at all times if you're me. I mean, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles. And when you have a calcium carbonate in, it modifies the bubbles and makes it kind of less effervescent, I would say, but also kind of, you know, smoothed it out.
+
+[39:22] So the problem with calcium carbonate is that it's not very soluble. So really to make it soluble and not taste chalky. We added a little bit of, uh, we added a little bit of phosphoric acid, which, you know, allowed us to dissolve the thing. And so we made a bunch of this water. We ended up liking magnesium sulfate was sweet and taste refreshing, but makes you poop. So you want to watch out for it. The calcium carbonate tastes like chalk unless you can get it all in solution. The calcium sulfate was not as chalky. Calcium sulfate is gypsum, which is another thing that is used for coagulating tofu. Also, I think will make you poop in large quantities. Nastasia, you enjoyed the potassium bicarbonate. Maybe we should work with that a little more. And I kind of like the sodium bicarbonate in little amounts, which is baking soda. So anyway, we're trying combinations of these things, but we're working on our own kind of what we think is like the best tasting blend to make it kind of a refreshing, maybe a little more refined mineral
+
+[40:17] water rather than our normal hypercarbonated nitrous CO2 water, which is also delicious, but anyway,
+
+[40:23] it's something we're working on. Now, um, anything to add on that, Nastasia? I don't like any of the ones you've made. Oh, Jesus Christ. You know, the thing is, like, you don't like it because here's the thing. She's like, I swear to God, folks. She was like, I like that. What's in it? And I was like, sodium bicarbonate. She was like, I hate it. Right or wrong. Yeah, I mean, like you are very, you know, easily swayed by, you know, knowing what's in it or not.
+
+[40:47] Anyway. So I found something out interesting. I was researching a book called The Mineral Waters of Europe from the 1880s by a guy named Tishborne, and I was downloading on Google
+
+[40:57] books because I love downloading things on Google books, which is like one of the greatest things in all the world is Google books. All of these public domain books are available. Basically, you can have the state of the art knowledge from anything in the late 1800s
+
+[41:10] before, and some of their state of the art knowledge is good, particularly with water, not in terms of science, but in terms of the actual composition of some of these waters, soda, things like that. I, you know, I do lots of research on it. And anyway, so I downloaded this thing by Tishborne. I had this interesting story, which I will relate to you in the next 2 minutes. I came upon this by accident. There is this thing in England called the Tishborne Dole, right? Dole like Bob Dole, but you know, dole meaning giving things out, right? And so basically, here's the story. In the 1100s, the Baron Tishborne was a cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap bastard, right? Cheap bastard. His wife was nice. And his wife, she was on her deathbed, and she said, I don't remember his name, Baron, you know, I really wish you would give, you have all this great
+
+[41:57] farmland, and you don't give any of the proceeds to that farmland to the poor. Please give some of the proceeds as farmland to the poor. He was like, no, because he's a cheap bastard. And then she said, please, please, I'm dying. Please, you know, give some of the proceeds of land of the poor. No. So he says, listen, finally, because he was a real dick. He says, uh, listen, um, I will I will donate as proceeds uh, to to the poor all of my land that you can walk around under your own power carrying a
+
+[42:28] torch. Now it was like, it was like wintertime and she was dying, right? Right? She gets up, gets up, gets a torch, crawls around 23 acres of the
+
+[42:40] Tishborne property with a lit torch before she collapses and the torch goes out, right? To this day, this is all true, by the way. This is not like, you know, horse hockey. Like, to this day, that area of land is called the crawl. So as she's dying from doing this, she basically says, okay, you are going to give the proceeds of this 23 acres in perpetuity to the villagers here, or there's a curse on you, you will have
+
+[43:03] the house of Tishborne will have 7 sons followed by 7 daughters, at which points the name will be extinct and the house will fall in ruins.
+
+[43:10] They continue this dole. since the 1100s. They had one break in the dole starting in the late 1700s. So it goes from the 1100s to the 17th, late 1700s, uh, and they stopped because the authorities said that there was a, there was a, like a disturbance. And then, well, according to the history, they had 7 sons in the Tishborne family, and then they couldn't start producing sons. They started only having daughters and all the sons were dying soon after they were born. They petitioned to restart the dole. They restart the dole. One son survived that had a son, and the Tishborne name was propagated again. In the in the late 40s, there was flower rationing after the war. And they thought they were going to stop the Tishborne dole again. And people from all over the country of England sent
+
+[43:52] flower, their flower rations to the Tishborne so that they could still distribute it out. Every inhabitant of Tishborne is allotted one gallon of flour a
+
+[44:02] year, and every child is allotted half a gallon a year, and they still get, you know, a couple tons of flour in every year. They bless it with holy water, sprinkle it out, and dole it out to
+
+[44:11] the to the people. So here's to the Baron of Tishborn and his dole. Thank you for listening to cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold here with Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[44:27] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, rock, crap. Oh, you
+
+[0:12] did it. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. Hello, you were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[0:30] I am Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues, the show where you call in and ask all sorts of cooking related questions, whether technical or not. Today, I'm in the studio with Nastasia Lopez's cooking issues own
+
+[0:42] hammer and special guest. We're very excited to have Jeffrey Steingarten, one of the great writers on food of all times, the food critic of
+
+[0:51] Vogue and personal friend of mine. Hi Jeffrey, thanks for coming. Hi, Dave. Hi, Natasha. So, uh, actually, we have some email questions in while we're waiting for. Oh, by the way, the number to call, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:07] Don't miss this opportunity to call in and ask Jeffrey a question. We had some email questions that came in. Um, kind of, you know, stirring things up a little bit. Greg wants to know, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey can't answer this, but for contractual reasons, I guess. But he has to ask, really, how seriously do you take Iron Chef America? It seems like this is really just a faux competition, and it's a great way to get publicity for great regional chef cooking more than national for more national exposure. What is your response? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. Oh, I'd love to answer. Oh, perfect. I take it seriously. And I found out about chefs by being a judge. The, um, I almost never really light into a chef from outside of New York because
+
+[1:56] they are usually a hero in their hometown. The last thing they need is to be on the show and have their reputation destroyed. The only people I'm really mean to are the Iron Chefs when they... But, you know, when they do something that's not, I'm not particularly good or really awful. And or disgusting. People from out of town, obviously. start looking for national publicity. And the good ones, like David Kinch, for example. David told me that after his appearance on Armed Chef, he won, he's never had an empty seed in his restaurant, which is, as you may know, in a very remote place in, in, um,
+
+[2:49] Silicon Valley. I can't even remember the name of the television. Los Gatos. Mountain View or, you know, one of those. Los Gatos, isn't it? Isn't it Los Gatos, man? I mean, it's only remote to Jeffrey because he lives in New York and then lives in Southern California, so he doesn't believe in that Northern California sort of. I know, so no, I like Northern California, but this is in, I don't know, in between, also, Los
+
+[3:09] Calgos, uh, means the cats. Yeah, no reason why anyone should live in a town called the Cats. That's true. And by the way, on a personal note, I've known Jeffrey many years and he does take this sort of thing very seriously, there's very little about food that he does not take seriously. That has been my experience. We have 2 callers apparently. So rather than make them wait, why don't we, why don't we take one of them? Hello? Hey, I have a question. Um, I want to know, like, food myth. You know, people say you can't eat oysters without, if a month doesn't have an R in it, and, you know, white wine with fish. I was wondering if you could like dispel some of, I mean, including that oyster one dispel or confirm some of these food myths that my generation grew up
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+[3:58] with. I don't know what generation yours is. Actually, you sound familiar. I think I recognize that voice. I believe that's the one and only Patrick Martin's, but a natural. I figured I could call in rather than walk across the street. I see. Well, actually, the whole idea of oysters in a month with R is only that not the greatest thing to have oysters
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+[4:23] in, um, you know, from warm water. That's why I'm always a little suspicious of Gulf oysters. Yeah. And the Gulf Oysters are also. I mean, before the oil does building everything, they were the only ones that used to possibly give, you know, contain vibrio. And, um... Right, which is why they're subjected to that ultra-high,
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+[4:44] ultra-high-pressure pasteurization technique, which I've never tasted, whether they're any good or not, after that, it's been done, you know, where they put it under. I've never tasted that one. But why bother when you can have real oysters? Yeah, that's true. That's true. No, now as for white wine fish, no, that's also, and,
+
+[4:58] and, yeah, but, you know, water bun doesn't generally go with steak. I mean, it's it's generally too weak, but uh, too soft. But red wine goes with fish. We know that better. Yeah, yeah. They cut him off. So he can no longer reply to us, but I'm sure he's agreeing. Well, I wonder whether he knows any or wives' tales regarding peak jowls because I just ordered a peak jowl from him. Really? Well, I'm sure that'll go with many different things depending on how you cook it, right? Are you going to cure it or are you going to cook it? I did cure. Oh, yeah? but only for a short time. I mean, I actually got the recipe from Carlo at Roberta's. Oh nice. All right. very fun a very fun chef. You'll have to invite me to try some. We still have that 2nd caller on the line? I think so. Yes. Hello? Hello? Hi. How you guys doing? Doing well, doing well. Excellent. So I actually have sort of continuing the non-technical question theme today. Young chefs and aspiring somaliers are always sort of admonished to develop and expand their palates. I figured you guys and Mr. Steingarten would be a great place to start with. What does that mean? How do you go about developing your palate? Is that an active process? Is that something that just develops over a lifetime of work? Well, you happen to hit one of Jeffrey's big pet peas about people that talk about food in general,
+
+[6:28] is that they haven't eaten enough, so I'm gonna give it to Jeffrey. I remember there was a young man who was just graduating from high school. He wanted to be a food writer or a chef, and it turned out
+
+[6:41] that he was coaching. I mean, he had grown up kosher, and I, he kept on wanting to know what book to
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+[6:46] read, or, and I told him the main thing is just eat everything you can. I mean, you've eaten so little in your life. And, um, But it also kind of helps to eat new things with
+
+[6:57] people who know. So, for example, if you go to Italy for the 1st time, um, and you're eating food you've never had
+
+[7:07] before or you've only had in America, then it kind of, but pays to eat with a native, I mean, a native who knows what the, you know, what he or she is doing. to just so you can get a sense from what you're looking for. Yeah, there's also... But all of us have about the same taste buds. I mean, there are super tasters, but I don't have to worry too much about them. But you develop your sense of taste or your ability to, you know, to distinguish, I think, by putting words on it. And, um, Therefore, all those taste words, it sounds so so pretend. Well, the ones that are too abstract are obviously too pretentious. The taste words can be very, very useful. And then finally, in
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+[7:58] the, in the introduction to my 1st book, I described the time I became a perfect omnivore, I undergoing an intense program that I had devised
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+[8:10] myself. And it was, um, I
+
+[8:18] wanted to rid myself of all preferences. Um, +and negative. So for example, whenever I would go to a restaurant, a good restaurant, I would order only things I didn't
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+[8:31] like, or that I thought I didn't like. By the end of 6 months or a year, I became a perfect omnivore, with the exception of insects. I had never gotten used to eating insects and desserts and Indian restaurants. Yeah, that's a tough one. What about Nato? Down, that was easy. And later, about a year later, I did become a, I'm an absolutely perfect omnivore by, um, by eating some really delicious, um, got bamboo
+
+[9:04] worms, how deep fried bamboo worms are, um, in Thailand. They're like French fries, et cetera, just as long as you don't look at the little face on the end. And, um, But and I was in India, I was in, in, in Punjab, and I had some
+
+[9:20] home cooked meals, and those desserts were just delicious when they made rice. So you've come to terms with the aptly named Barfy? Oh, yes. Yeah? Okay. But, you know, this advice from Jeffrey, I think, really, you should take this to heart. I think to become a critical cook or a critical leader. Even if you don't like something, it's wise to eat enough of it so that you can at least distinguish what's going
+
+[9:40] on, even if you can't make yourself like it as Jeffrey was able to. I think we have another color. Yes, we do. All right? Hello? Hi. Hello. Hi, this is Matthew. I'm actually calling you from the Los Angeles International Airport getting ready to take a flight, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask you this question. Where are you going? I'm going to Sacramento today. Not far away. I'm sorry. who are really getting out of that California dreaming. Yeah. Sacramento is a really bad food city, by the way, but that's a whole other subject. But you know, there's a, there's a very good sushi, a very good sushi place in Los Angeles, and I'm not one of those, you know, who thinks that Los Angeles is, is overflowing with good sushi places. But there's sushi Mori, and he grows his own rice near Sacramento.
+
+[10:33] Oh really? Yeah, so there's an example of a good thing about Sacramento. Since you're in the airport though. Well, let me get to your question before they make you get on your airplane. You got it. I know that you've been a guest judge on Iron Chef quite frequently. Yes. And my question is, given how much they do, and the very narrow time period they have to cook, and all the shortcuts they have to take, how good is the
+
+[10:58] food, really? How does it compare to, say, a really good 1st class restaurant in New York or Los Angeles? Good question. Well, I was surprised to have how good the food was. Obviously, it's not always good, but almost all the time, the actual Iron Chefs. I mean, I was naturally, I was skeptical about it all. Um, The main 3 Iron Chefs. And also Michael Simon, you know, you really want to eat different cooking. And, um, Or
+
+[11:37] most of the dishes that they're cooking. And a lot of the challengers too. Now, I'm trying to think of, see, this is yuppie food. But you have to understand that. It's, um... to Mary Sue and Ben Susan, and then maybe only one
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+[11:55] other, 2 other cooks that I've seen have actually cooked, what you might call old-fashioned
+
+[12:03] food. Food that's extremely good, but it's not colorful. It's not in small pieces. It's not intensely flavored. It's, you might call it comfort food. That doesn't go so well in Iron Chef. Did they win? No, they lost, but they probably should have won. But their food was very good. Um, I think it may have been my fault that they didn't win, actually. I feel bad. Because they're very good coach, and their food is just so good to eat. It doesn't, you know, surprise you. It doesn't astound you. It's, um, Oh, so anyway, that's what I have to say. But you know, the food can be very good, but as I say, it is yuppie food. But food that is made to kind of surprise you. Um, combinations
+
+[13:05] you've never had before. It's very hard to judge combinations you've never had before. Um, is, um, For example, Wiley Dufrain. But when he was a challenger, he did a fabulous job until dessert. Right. And then there was a combination. There was a smear, by the way, who's Dave's brother-in-law. And I was at the taping for this. I have some hard feelings about this. So, yes. And it was a, in the dessert, there was a smear of chocolate and a smear of licorice. First of all, Jeffrey hates this sort of brushwork on a plate. He has a personal bias against it. He actually thinks it's evil. No, I actually did not have a personal bias then. I do have a personal bodies now. only because you have to work very hard to get that stuff off the plate into your mouth.
+
+[13:53] And if it's really good, why do you have to do that? You know, and the thing on this dessert, was it coffee, was it coffee flavored couscous, or is that not in the dessert? It's been a long time since it happened. But it was between Mario Batali and my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrayne, and I'm sure, I'd tasted none of it. I'm sure that Mario's food was delicious, right? Wiley had attempted a much more kind of a mental thing, a
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+[14:16] textural tasting of tilapia, tilapia, which is a vile, vile, vile fish. Mario, I think, made the smart play, which is, you know, cover the tilape with all sorts of flavorful stuff. And Wiley, I think, took the harder, and I guess, in the end, less successful route of trying to work with the fish
+
+[14:34] itself. What are your thoughts? I would agree with you if you were correct. I love that Oh, man. In my story, in my metal story, because you don't actually scratch on the end. While he was winning by a hair, but his memory was very hard to beat. I mean, he so, but he knows how to do Iron Chef, right? Or knew he's not on it anymore. But she's probably too rich. Um, Mario was fantastic. But and also, but also very inventive too. So, but it wasn't as though Mario, that, you know, took a cubic, a cubic centimeter of a tilapia and had covered it with spaghetti or something. It was like 2 cubic centimeters. Tilapia is an evil fish, and... but very bad fish. But in any event... get to the nitty-gritty. Remember how they killed some live tilapia on that. And I believe Mario used one of the live tilapia that was killed, served it to the other judge, and she found it inedible because it was too
+
+[15:33] tough, and then said that it wasn't Mario's fault. It was the fish's fault. This was cut from the airing, but basically she got served a piece of basically inedible tilapia, and how did that not get put into the scorings? Do you remember this? I'm sure it was. My story, however, didn't involve her tough fish. Because had only know that it was tough. Right. And I actually asked her for a piece. Oh, she didn't give it to you? whether she gave it. I don't remember that. But as I was saying, while he was not marked out for anything else he did, His food was sort of compared to most of his food conventional and delicious. I mean, after all, but after all, he worked at, but very successfully as Jean George. I mean, while he knows how to cook, got many kinds of food, but it was only the dessert. No one liked the dessert. So, but you know, I guess he got way marked off because of that. It was only the dessert, Dave. was not anything else. All right, all right. Well, well, before we go to our 1st commercial break, I will answer one of the... Okay, I'll take the caller and then after the commercial break, I'll answer an email question about purging clams. All right? Call her? Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi. What is your question? Oh, great. I'm on the air. Excellent. Um, I have a souffle related question. So I'm a private chef, and my main client loves it when I make a souffle.
+
+[17:05] Problem with a souffle, you have to start it and finish it when you're going to serve it. So I've been trying to think of ways of pre-making it. Um, one idea I had, which I tried and failed last night, was to use an ISI
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+[17:19] ThermoWip. Um, and I just wanted to pick your brain. It didn't, didn't seem to work. I put about into a pint
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+[17:28] size, ISI, whipper, um, about 4 egg, egg whites, and it just didn't foam up. I foamed it with 2 nitrous oxide containers and it just, it didn't do anything. Um, you, well, did you get fired? Did I get what? That's Jeffrey for you because he doesn't like the whole egg white, egg white foam thing. Most of the time when you're foaming... Yeah, I'm saying you wouldn't like just a straight egg white foam out of an ISI. Oh no, he didn't serve it to it. He's testing. He didn't serve it to his client. Oh I see. Right? You didn't serve it too far. No, no, no. definitely didn't. I've never foamed directly egg whites in an ISI. Have you, Jeffrey? Egg whites tried to do it directly? Yes, I've tried. Without success or no? T didn't spend enough time on it. Most people who do pre-made souffles use a stabilizer of some sort, like a
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+[18:20] carraginen to stabilize the foam. I think they make it somewhat traditionally and then stabilize it and then cut it into pucks and then bake it and
+
+[18:30] it rises up. I can think of cuisine solutions has a commercial preparation based on that uses this. And it's, I believe, based on Carragin and Xanthan gum, along with the regular bass for
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+[18:41] souffle. Have you done any experiments with pre-made souffles? Jeffrey at all? Not exactly pre-made. I remember a long time ago, and I wish that I could remember the details, but I'd probably have them somewhere on my notes. There was a restaurant in Paris. There is a restaurant in Paris that called La Rega Lodge. It was the 1st of the cheap bistros. I mean, the cheap bistros with excellent young chefs. maybe 10 years ago. And one thing he was famous for was his, you know, Grand Marnier souffles. And I was in the kitchen watching him, and he showed me how during the
+
+[19:16] baking, the souffle would rise to the top. And then he'd open the oven door and it would sink, and then he'd shut the oven door again, and it would rise, and it would rise again. But in other words, it was not so delicate that you had to kind of, you know, not even talk loud around it. Right, right. And, um, I can't remember the formula, but I'm sure there was no so-called molecular so-called gastronomy.
+
+[19:40] Right. Oh, the awful term. Well, look, here a souffle is basically this. You take and you make a base that's somewhat pre-aerated, right? And then you bake it so that it inflates by
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+[19:52] created steam and by the bubbles that are inside expanding or actually both. When it gets hot enough, it sets. And if you're good at it, the inside stays custody and delicious. So the way to make it stick around for a long time is to somehow set that initial base with something that when it's heated will release itself and allow itself to expand. So things like, uh, I've never experimented, things like gelatin, although gelatin's not
+
+[20:20] free sloth stable, things like kerragin that are going to melt once they get up above about 120 degrees, which is really below a Fahrenheit, which is below or
+
+[20:29] 140 I have to look it up, which is, you know, below where the maximum expansion this thing takes place. So you want to use a thermally reversible geling or stabilizing agent or combination of them that will allow you to get the rise that you want after this stuff
+
+[20:42] remelts, but will gel up at a lower temperature. I don't have a particular recipe, but that's the tactic I would take. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you so much for your call. Do we have to go to a break or we have time? All right, we have to go to a commercial break, but please call in 718-497-2128 718-49728
+
+[21:03] for the great Jeffrey Steingarden. Remember, he pulls no punches. people to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look him! Ha! We're gonna have a punk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take them up, Fred. We've gotta take you home. All right. I'm gonna do it again. He won't do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.
+
+[21:53] Brother! Yeah. Now I want everybody. Let bread blow my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go into that business now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Get a James Horn on me. Red, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! Man!
+
+[22:37] Hello, this is Dave Arnold. You're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, calling with your questions for Jeffrey Steingarten at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And before we get on to our next caller, We had a question come in about purging clams beforehand, presumably to get the
+
+[23:07] sand out. This comes from Adam Lazaric, and he's a chef down in Philadelphia, and he wants to know whether any of these purging methods really work, saltwater, freshwater, cornmeal,
+
+[23:17] et cetera. I would not purge a clam in fresh water because they, the ones we usually get, the hard shell clams are, they're seawater animals. I know from experience that if you put clam in flavored
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+[23:29] water that, like, for instance, bacon, bacon and onion soup that has the same amount of salt in it as the ocean that they will open up, eat that, and get flavored like delicious bacon onion soup because this is something that I've done.
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+[23:41] And then you eat them raw, then it tastes like bacon onion soup. So I know I know that works. The cornmeal, presumably, is to get them to start eating. I don't know whether there's any truth to whether the cornmeal, it really makes them eat. I don't know why it would be cornmeal, let's say, and not flour or something else like that. Presumably some of the starch from the cornmeal is going to dissolve and make them make them eat it, whereas the rest sinks to the bottom. Maybe that's why cornmeal. But I wasn't able to find any specific studies, but the premise behind putting cornmeal in the clams is to get the clams to start to start eating. Dave, what about snails? I try getting snails to eat rosemary once to purge them out in the old Spanish style. I was not successful. They died and smelled god awful, and my wife basically forbade me from ever running experiment on snails in the bathroom again.
+
+[24:29] I would do it. Oh, don't do it in the bathroom. Do it in the bedroom. Yeah. Well, I think that might get me an even more, even more trouble. There certainly, it's, but you, in the, in the, you know,
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+[24:44] classic style of paella, from Valencia, you purge the snails, not just for a Dave, for a whole period of
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+[24:54] time, on herbs, so that they taste like rosemary. And, um, I've never tried that. But I believe it. I've tried it unsuccessfully. And my friend Johnny Azini and I in London tried to fatten snails on
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+[25:08] milk, also with only marginal success. That's an old Roman technique. So I have not had much luck with... So it's your theory that the Romans and the Spanish are lying. No, it's my theory that I'm bad at it. I see. How about Johnny? He bad too. Yes, we're both bad at it. You know, I guess it takes more than a tech guy and a 3 star pastry chef to fatten a snail, at least to try and relearn how to do it. But, hey, I'll try it with you sometime if you'd like. You want to try? But when I lived half the time in San Diego. Every once in a while, your gardener would be filled with snails, every leaf would be, would have a snail on me. Um, and so I was going to eat them. But I had to do research 1st on the genus and everything and on whether there was going to be any poison involved. And by the time I did, and then I started waiting for the next snail infestation. There was no more styles. I happened to have a copy because I visited a snail farm. you know, just north of Tuscany, a copy of a book on snail farming that deals with most of the famous European
+
+[26:16] snail varieties. It's written from an Italian viewpoint, but translated into wretched English, so I can read it. And we will go over the book together and see whether we can learn anything interesting about feeding snails.
+
+[26:27] But finally, I was told that these snails were the same as the snails in burgundy, France, and that there was no reason not to eat them. can do an article after their referee. I didn't know that the Italians ate land snails. Yeah, I went and picked a whole bunch. They had a special Etruscan variety that's still grown in very small quantity at this farm called
+
+[26:50] Lachocula that's way up in, or however you say, snail in Italian. And, uh, yeah, and I went and go went to pick them, the varieties called uh, rigatello, something like that. Like round, like a pinwheel thing. They're good. But they're smaller than the bigger ones that you get in burgundy, they're a lot smaller snail, but they were good. They tasted good. Do we have a caller or no? We have a color. Hello? I got a question about avocado puree? Alrighty. Uh, the whole pit thing. That's just bogus, putting the pit in your avocado puree. Correct. That never worked for me at all. Yeah, great. Lime juice is what I currently use about 3 quarters of a lime to one avocado. But sometimes it comes out just too acidic for me. Is there anything else I can use to combat the oxidation other than citrus here? Ascorbic acid. Straight ascorbic acid vitamin C from the, from the, um, what am I talking about? The pharmacy. Make sure it doesn't have rose hip and stuff in, just straight ascorbic acid vitamin C, has a lot more antioxidant power, and a lot less of that acid taste than using a lime, which is a mixture of ascorbic acid,
+
+[28:03] malic acid, citric acid, and a pinch of succinic acid. So the ascorbic acid alone is going to work. Sodium, what is it, sodium meta by sulfite? Is that correct, Jeffrey? Sodium metabisulfite also works. Or packing in an actual, you know, a bag that's oxygen proof. Current plastic wraps are not very good oxygen barriers. No, at all. But also, remember that the lime of all the common citrus, the limes are the most acidic. Why would you use lime? I mean, as opposed to lemon or? Yeah. I actually try to use them from Yuzu and some other things, thinking that more is better, but... The user can be very acidic, though. Yeah. It's not the asset, it's not straight acid. It's not the pH that's preserving it. It's the ascorbic acid itself, which is, which is an anti, uh, oxidant that is, uh, actually stopping the brownie from happening. So it's not it's not really that you need to make it more acidic. So you might go for less acid fruit with a higher ascorbic acid balance, like lemon, or just use straight vitamin C. And a lot of people, you know, when they go out to buy vitamin C. They mistakenly buy citric acid, and citric acid isn't near the, doesn't have near the antioxidant power that ascorbic acid vitamin C does.
+
+[29:15] Dave, can you just mash up a vitamin C pill? I've never done that because I think they have all sorts of other things to make it into a pill form
+
+[29:23] like, you know, like little bits of calcium and whatnot and chalk and all this stuff. I buy the straight, straight powder, 100% vitamin C powder. But I hope this answers your question. Thank you. And we have another caller apparently for coming in. Hello? Hello? Hi, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, love the show. My name is Jason, call from Brooklyn. Hey, Jason. Uh, I was calling. I have a question. I'm into juicing and making smoothies and stuff like that, and I've had terrible experiences in the past picking out juicers and blenders, and I was leaning towards getting one of the, uh, you know, one of the expensive, uh, blenders that I've seen on the
+
+[30:02] internet, and or on TV, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions on what would be the best, uh, the best method to go
+
+[30:07] about, uh, picking out a blender. I'll start by saying this. Unfortunately, there is no single thing that will juice all things well. It depends on what you want to juice and what kind of results you want. If the question is, should I get a Vita Prep, the answer is undoubtedly, yes. Right, Jeffrey, or no? Yeah, I mean, the Vitaprep is an excellent piece of equipment, right? It's not a juicer, though. Um, you know, I would get a champion juicer for they're doing things like apples and carrots, and I would get a Vita prep for blending things. I mean, the ultimate juicer is a vitaprep, a bunch of enzymes, and a centrifuge, but that's a little above most people's... I bought a different blender. some kind of restaurant show. Peak ups who was on the floor and
+
+[30:53] after these shows, you could often kind of offered them something and they let you take it home. And it was the big wearing, which is has the same power or a little more than the vina prep. And I've never found anything that has not pulverized within seconds. The only thing you have to do. I didn't do it the 1st time is to hold down the top because otherwise it goes all over the kitchen. Have you ever side-by-side compared it with the Vitaprep? No, I'd like to. you want to bring your... Yes, I would like I would like to do that. I mean, uh... Well, here's the thing. The 2 major blenders that I've used on the power side. I have not used Jeffrey's wearing is the K-Tech blender and the
+
+[31:34] VitaPrep blender. You know, look, when you're talking about blending. There's 2 main things that you're worried about. One is the tip speed of the blades as they spin around because that is what's going to determine how much force is applied to your product.
+
+[31:49] The other thing is, presumably the sharpness of the blades might matter for some, for some applications. And then the one that's not looked at a lot where Vitaprep actually kind of falls flat sometimes is in a pitcher design. You want you want good movement of the product through the blades. Otherwise, you have problems with improper mixing and also cavitation where you get, you know, big pockets of air where the blades aren't hitting things. So these are the 3 main things you want to look for in a blender. You know, and the power is basically a rating that just correlates somewhat with the ability to spin a blade around and to get a high tip speed going. But, you know, they're not really great juicers. Blender is more of a blender. If you want to make juice, right? The choices in the low range, I would get a couple $100 champion juicer, which juices most
+
+[32:35] things, won't juice wheatgrass or a sugar cane. But they're great juices. He was talking about smoothies. Oh, smoothies. Oh, yeah, then a blender is what you want. But if you're going to make juice. I mean, when I think juice, I'm thinking like a liquid, juice. If you have a lot of money, the neutrafaster kind of kicks butt. That's the big one that they're monsters, man. I went to a show, uh, uh, and I, you know, and I'm used to juicing carrots and apples and stuff like that, and we all joke about how we're making our uh, forearms into, you know, giant monstrous forearms by jamming
+
+[33:05] apples, case after case, into these machines inducing them. So I walked up to this other, you know, this neutral. It's neutrafaster. the name, tried to, you know, I thought I was going to have to force the apple through and it basically ate the apple. I didn't even have time to push on it. That's how that's how awesome it is. But that's like a $5000 problem, right? The champion's like a $200 problem. How much is the Vita Prep, like a $300 problem? $400? Yeah. But I will definitely side by side mine with yours, Jeffrey, and we will
+
+[33:30] see we'll see what we think. The reason the K-Tek is back. Dave, didn't you invent a hand blender? I did. I invented a hand blender that is almost as good as the Vita Prep. It has it's got a very high tip speed. It spins at 24,000 RPM with quite a bit of power and it's got a variable speed. It's got a variable speed trigger. I mean, it's pretty, it's nice. It's not. I mean, it's nice. not going to lie. I have one? When I make another batch, you will definitely be on the 1st list of people that
+
+[33:56] will get one. All right. Well, let me answer a couple questions. I have one that a quick one from Michael at herbivoration. How do you spell herbivoracious? He wants to know whether there's any transglutaminate, transgataminate is meat glue, it glues meat together. Actually any proteins. Wants to know if there's any applications for vegetables. Well, tofu can be strengthened with translutaminates, and yogurts, and other dairy systems can be strengthened with translutaminates. You can glue vegetables together with translutaminates, but unfortunately, you have to use gelatin as a helper protein. And this is something that Wiley, my brother-in-law has tested out quite a bit, where he cross-links, gelatin to form noodles out of vegetables, using translutamates, but unfortunately, gelatin is not vegetarian.
+
+[34:47] The 2nd question he asks is, can melons be compressed without a vacuum machine? It's tough. No, yeah, you can infuse without a vacuum machine, but I have not found any way to compress without a vacuum machine. Could I just add that, um, I
+
+[35:07] have never eaten anything. I believe that was made with meat glue. That was worth eating. I'm sorry, Dave. Wow. Wow. What does that mean? How do you know that you've, how can you, 1st of all, the question is, what do you mean? And secondly, how would you know whether or not Miklu was used necessarily? Because you asked them, how did you make this? In every case? If someone just hands you a piece of meat that's not necessarily obviously been meekly. You ask them whether it was meat glut or not? So, then I would love, probably love to taste it. Most people don't do that, most people use it to play tricks.
+
+[35:45] For example, your and Nils Dutcher Duckan. First of all, you had a very early version of it. First of all, let me just say you had a very early version of it. Traditional turducken is an abomination because it cannot possibly be cooked, right? It is not true that there is an okay way to overcook duck. And it's also not true that it's okay to just bathe overcooked duck in fat and sauces and
+
+[36:07] then pretend that you haven't overcooked it. But who said there was? Well, I'm presuming that you're sticking up for traditional traducking. No. No, okay. But you had a very early, early version of the show. better than the Miklu version. No, well, 1st of all, as I said, you had a very early version. Second of all, I think you were wrong, that most things are used for special effects. The most general use for meat glue is just in making portions that cook evenly and nicely. I mean, that's the majority of the use. It just doesn't get any of the press. Well, we'll have to discuss the, um, Um, I can't remember the name of the cut anymore that they have at, um,
+
+[36:51] with your brother-in-law's restaurant, to pay you flat iron. Yeah, and you take out the cartilage piece? Yeah, yep. I didn't see the purpose. Because, although you hate this sort of thing. There are people who don't like to cut around the cartilage when they eat something. Well, it would be better not to have cartilage, but, um, maybe the flat iron isn't the best steak to eat in the 1st place. You don't think it tastes good? Not as good as, I'd say, the 30 other parts of the car. Wow. The steer. Yeah, steer. I'm sorry. All right. Well, let's let me one more quick question because I already asked one question from Greg, but not the one
+
+[37:30] he actually wanted us to answer. So, uh, Greg emailed us and said, uh,
+
+[37:36] can I talk a little more about reducing the uh, capsation level in uh, peppers, uh, hot peppers,
+
+[37:42] habaneros, specifically, uh, because he uses a surgical technique to remove the inside of the skin to get rid of the uh, majority of the capsation to make them not as uh,
+
+[37:50] hot. Presumably he does this because habaneros have a unique and amazing floral aroma and taste. He's interested in using an enzyme that we use called SPL,
+
+[38:01] or former one called Peelzyme that kind of destroys tissue. He wants to know whether we can basically erase this layer of tissue on the inside of the pepper that has the
+
+[38:09] cepstation. Unfortunately, the stuff that it, that in a pepper, the thing you eat is the mesocarp, right? That same mesocarpon as citrus fruit is the albedo, right? So the stuff that's dissolved by peelzyme, which is this enzyme, is the actual meat of the pepper. Now, the majority of capsation in a pepper is contained on the inside surface of the inside skin of the
+
+[38:29] pepper, inside. and somewhat in the veins. So you could preferentially melt the top layer away with this enzyme, but then you're going to contaminate the
+
+[38:38] whole the whole pepper with it. So I don't think it's necessarily going to be helpful. I think you're much better using what you do now, which is using knife. just a pain in the butt. Another route you might take is to look for a source
+
+[38:50] of, how do you pronounce it? Ahi, ahi, ahi, pepper, ahi, AJI, Dulce. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Anyone? Uh, it's called, it's a sweet pepper that looks like a habanero and supposedly has the aroma and taste of a
+
+[39:05] habanero, comes from without the spice. It comes from Venezuela. I've only had 3 or 4 of them in my life and I didn't find them to be quite as floral or aromatic as a habanero, but they're in the same
+
+[39:18] ballpark and they require no manipulation whatsoever. I believe they are a characteristic ingredient in some traditional Venezuelan dishes, but I have never been to
+
+[39:27] Venezuela. So I don't know. But also Peruvian food. And um... But
+
+[39:35] also in Ecuador and Ceviche. The Ahidulce? Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it has as good an aroma or taste as the habanero? Well, it's interesting. I think this is a very interesting question and an interesting idea because we all know that different peppers have
+
+[39:55] wonderful, different kind of aromatic and floral tastes, but you can rarely taste
+
+[40:01] them because your tongue is thinking about other things. Right. So I think that's just a wonderful question. I don't see why it's such a, Dave, what did you call it, pain in the bud? Is that what? Yes, pain in the butt. the words you used? Yes, yeah. To, um, you know, uh, in the past in in restaurant kitchens, they used to even peel grapes or, um, for a terrible dish, yeah,
+
+[40:27] silver on eke, right? That's a terrible thing. Yes, that's right. Or, um... David
+
+[40:33] Boule, when
+
+[40:39] he was introducing a version of Joe Robichon's famous mashed potatoes, using the hot potato,
+
+[40:47] although he was using fingerlings, and they have to be
+
+[40:50] peeled and they're small. And so he had a whole, he said, he supported a whole Salvadoran
+
+[40:59] family to peel hot potatoes. all day long for his potato puree. And so that was a good thing supporting them by rather than supporting them by doing something else? Well, one of them went on to Harvard and got a Nobel Praj. This is what we call a lie. Is this true? No. Yeah, this is a lie. yeah. Yeah, that seems like, you know, Marx's dream, someone sitting in a basement peeling tiny little potatoes constantly, you know, nice, great. Anyway, the kitchen. What should he have had them do? A lot of kitchen work, though, is nice and dehumanizing. You got to get into the Zen of it, right? Jeffrey? like that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but he's not peeling the outside of these peppers. It peeling the inside. And the real problem is, is that any sort of contamination, and you've just ruined your whole job, you know what I mean? That's kind of probably the panel. No, could you explain that again? So he's like, he's like taking and cutting the cap off and removing it carefully without cutting all the way through, popping it off, opening
+
+[41:55] it, and then removing the inner skin, presumably without slipping and contaminating and getting the super hot parts into the not so hot parts.
+
+[42:03] seems difficult. But he doesn't have to be 1000% accurate, you know? I mean, he's trying to get rid of of much of the, you know, of the habanaros hotness in order to be able to
+
+[42:17] taste the floral part. It can still be a little hot. Yeah, I guess I guess you are correct. And I think the other thing to do is to buy a rotary evaporator. I don't know. I was specifically told last week not to mention buying a rotary evaporator as the... I would love to have one. played with yours, though. Well, you're welcome anytime, Jeffrey. And here's another question that comes in. Matt from Chicago. And this is right up Jeffrey's Alley as well. I recently bought a bag of MSG from my local Asian grocery store to experiment, but whenever I use it, I
+
+[42:45] can't help to be reminded of instant soup mix, is there a secret to help using MSG to blend with other flavors. And before I let Jeffrey launch into this, because this is a subject dear to his heart, I will just say you're probably using too much because MSG is not used in the same quantities that you would use salt or other spices.
+
+[43:04] And with that, I will hand it over to Jeffrey. Well, I'm afraid that I can't give you advice about about the best way to use it. One thing is, don't use it in soup. But you know, because you'll probably be able to taste or sense it too much. But you can certainly use it in many other things, and I just remembered that plutamic acid, MSG is, you know, the same flavor enhancer that's been used
+
+[43:36] in, um, in Asia, uh, you know, drained out of giant kelp for many, many, many years. Yeah. And maybe you should try giant kelp. Yeah, we have, yeah, um, Kombu, for instance, for... But, you know, you're also, and I don't mean, you know, I think most of our listeners are not anti-MSG, but, you know, Jeffrey
+
+[43:59] wrote, was very early writer in the food world on debunking the fact that you think you might have a reaction to
+
+[44:08] MSG. Was that in your 1st book? Was that the man who ate everything? Um, I believe it was in the 1st book and it was called, it might have been the 2nd book, and it was called, why doesn't everybody in China have a headache? Right. And I actually did a survey in China. after lunch. Um, asking people, do you have headaches? What did they say? No one had a headache. That is actually an interesting... I mean, reading the literature on MSG is boring with the, and I'll try and get it and put it up on the form with the exception of one article written by a
+
+[44:41] scientist, uh, who, um, just lamb base anyone. I mean, I'll have to get it, but, you know, the from a science standpoint, it's somewhat ludicrous, I think you have a reaction to it because your body makes more glutanic acid in your head than you could ever normally reasonably consumed because it's a
+
+[45:03] neurotransmitter, and you need it to live. But that's, that's different. But don't you think that the original discovery of the Chinese restaurant syndrome, which was a phrase, um, invented by the New England Journal of Medicine, which captioned a letter, from a, a mass general, uh, doctor in Boston, who had this experience, and he wrote a letter,
+
+[45:35] asked, to the England Journal of Medicine, asking whether anyone else had noticed this, because he became flushed after
+
+[45:42] a large number of bowls of wanton soup. And in those days, Oh, so it was a England Journal of Medicine that thought of the idea of
+
+[45:52] a Chinese restaurant syndrome, of course, that is no longer believed to be politically correct, even though
+
+[45:59] it was the 1st discovery of it, there was in a Boston Chinese restaurant. Most people don't remember those days, say 1964, or so I do. And there's no doubt that they would jump huge amounts of MSG in wonton
+
+[46:16] soup. And that if you drank it on an empty stomach, I think you probably could get a dose that if you're especially sensitive to it might affect
+
+[46:26] you. Okay, well, the scientific literature on blood levels of glutamic acid upon consumption are that if you consume
+
+[46:36] MSG, with any sort of food at all, your blood levels don't spike. But how about soup? Right. If you consume liquid only that doesn't have a lot of other stuff going on, it is true that you can get a spike in, um,
+
+[46:50] englutaminate level in your blood that lasts, uh, up to 120 minutes. Yeah. So the, you know, there is that spike. It's only when you're drinking kind of only fluids, and it's only in really large doses. I don't know how much they were adding in Boston, but then furthermore, recent research on this has been that even at those levels, there doesn't appear to be that much of a, um, that much, I mean, or any really
+
+[47:17] reaction. So that most of the studies that have shown reactions were not properly
+
+[47:21] blinded. They weren't, you know, they would put MSG into a strongly flavored citrus beverage and
+
+[47:28] assume that no one could taste the MSG. When studies are given of MSG in gelatin capsules consumed on an empty stomach, then there doesn't appear to be a statistical
+
+[47:40] effect. I mean, I've been meaning to do a post-nist for a long time because I had to read like 600 pages of this crap because someone asked me a question once and I read like 600 pages of crap on
+
+[47:51] MSG. So I can go back and kind of redo it because it was, you know, like 6 months ago or something that I did the research, but, I mean,
+
+[47:57] is this jibe with what you remember, Jeffrey, or no? But let me ask you, David, before I asked you. But why you're being so, um, blage about the dangers of
+
+[48:09] Karagina, um, there's a whole literature on that today. Well, I never, when was I blasé about the dangerous character? You would buy someone before. to put to Karagina and their food. Yeah, well, you advise. mean, like, we all advise things that aren't necessarily 100%, you know, it's a traditional
+
+[48:28] ingredient, you know, it's a traditional ingredient. By the way, the research on carragin is only that certain types of
+
+[48:34] carragin, I believe, kappa, carragin, specifically, in very, in low pH systems, in various acidic systems, might have some association with certain types of cancer.
+
+[48:44] Um, I don't happen to use carrogen that often. Presumably, souffles are not a super high acid system. No. But anyway, we have a, we have a, we have a, you know, but I'm
+
+[48:57] sure I'm sure I'm going to get questions on that, uh, on that soon. All right, we have a caller coming in. Yeah. Hi, Dave, this is Ken Christianbaum. Hey, hey, Kent. Good to speak to you. Listen, I have my own notion on what's going on with MSG. And that's that there's these persistent anecdotal reports that there is a reaction.
+
+[49:15] So what could be happening? Well, one of the ways that MSG is produced is by microbial fermentation. And if the purification from the fermentation is not done properly, I think there could be other compounds in that preparation that could
+
+[49:31] give, you know, negative reaction. And so even presumably that would be something that was more prevalent in the past. Yeah, I think they've gotten a lot better at the fermentation and purification techniques and that I'm not surprised that there might have been more of these anecdotal reports back in the 1960s than there are now.
+
+[49:49] That's interesting. I never thought about that, by the way, for our listeners, this is Kent Kirschenbaum, one of the founders of the experimental cuisine collective and professor of polymer chemistry at NYU. That's correct, right, Kent? Pretty much. That's it. As I was able to find out if you write anything. about MSG that is not negative, or at least if you're one of the 1st ones to have done that, there are hordes of people out there who are sure that their children were brain
+
+[50:18] damaged as a result of the MSG and their food. The studies on brain damage. Okay. So brain damage and MSG is a very interesting question. MSG is actually used as an agent to cause brain damage in neonatal rodents. The blood brain barrier and a neonatal rodent is nowhere near as developed as the blood brain barrier in a human being.
+
+[50:39] They fed absurd doses to these rats and mice to cause brain damage on the equivalent of a
+
+[50:46] full-grown man eating something like 250 grams of straight MSG in a sitting on an empty stomach. The similar doses were tried on neonatal monkeys, and unfortunately, and
+
+[51:00] they were shown not to have that brain damage effect. So I know that those studies have been thoroughly debunked, but I mean, that has nothing, but that doesn't address really Kent's question on whether it's possible that there was a 2nd contaminant that would cause some sort of reaction back in the 60s and
+
+[51:18] 70s. I don't know. Basically, I believe we're talking about 1963. Not necessarily the 50s. But let me ask you, Dave, some people objected, um, and I
+
+[51:32] assume they were wrong. When I was talking about how a, um, There was an Australian study, although again, the MSG was supplied by the
+
+[51:41] Agenda Moto Company, so people are always suspicious. Obviously, they were the largest manufacturers of industry. Anyway, there was an Australian study showing that there was more glutamic acid in an Italian meal, largely because of
+
+[51:56] the, about tomatoes and the Parmesan. Then in a Chinese meal. Also, we know that in Japanese meal was there could be the more glutamic acid, and no one talks about the, the, um, the Japanese restaurant syndrome. But is it possible that natural grutamic acid is different? I don't see how that's possible. I mean, I know that, you know, what Kent was saying that it might be contaminated, but I mean, it's the sodium salt, basically, of glutamic acid. It is providing, by weight, I think, roughly one third of the sodium that table salt would. So there's extra salt. There's extra sodium involved, but I don't see how it's, I don't see how it's possible because it's also produced from a biological system. It's not, it's not produced. It's not like you're dealing with like a different, you know, isomer or something like that. I mean, they're both produced biologically. Um, I don't I don't see how it could possibly be different. Ken, are you still there? Do you see a way that could be different or is Ken already gone? I don't see how it can be different, to be honest. And as far as the salt form of it. I mean, once it hits your stomach, that that counter ion is going to be swapped out almost instantaneously. So I agree with you, Dave, on this, that I think it would be hard to imagine how there could be differences in the monosodium glutamate
+
+[53:21] itself. Now, there could very well be differences in the, you know, one% or
+
+[53:26] 0.one% of whatever additional material is there in the commercial
+
+[53:30] MSG as opposed to what's in your your natural food. Right. I mean, I think a lot of the reaction has to do is when people eat something that's unfamiliar to them, they then have a reaction because they've eaten something unfamiliar,
+
+[53:42] I've been poisoned or I've eaten something terrible, and then they have some sort of reaction to it. And I think some of the studies have shown that these effects that are linked with the syndrome, we'll call it, are basically just the effects of eating unfamiliar foods on people's
+
+[53:59] psyche. I don't know what you guys think about. Although the, the, 1st report, the New England Journal Medicine was, um, Um, By a a doctor of a Chinese ancestry. I remember this yeah. who ate a lot of wonton soup in Boston all the time. So I don't think he was put on. Did he have a headache all the time or just once? No, he got flushed. He didn't have a headache. But all the time? He got very flushed. He only reported once. I went back and read that, and it also seems a little bit tongue in cheek and then was taken seriously by a lot of people. I mean, that's why they named it Chinese Restaurant Syndrome in the New England Adrenaline's Medicine. Right. Dave, let me ask you a question if I could. Alright. When I was doing an article a long time ago on whether it was bad to eat salt. Um, I came across a number of papers. showing that even those people who were so sensitive and had a blood pressure reaction to a high salt diet, did not have the same
+
+[55:12] reaction, to other sodium compounds. For example, baking soda and baked goods. Even though in the very old days, doctors also warned you not to eat too many baked goods. Because of the baking soda, but when it was tested on people, there was either no reaction or very little reaction from all the other sodium compounds.
+
+[55:38] I mean, in our, in our diets, now we probably have 50 or 100 sodian compounds. Before I let Kent answer, because he actually probably knows what he's talking about, I will ask you this, Jeffrey, before
+
+[55:48] we. The answer is, did they measure for like actual moles of sodium consumed or just weight of the compound sodium bicarbonate, which is a lot heavier than salt per mole.
+
+[55:59] Dave, I have to assume that because they were sonages. that they measured the right thing. I would not assume that, actually, because I've read I've spent so much time reading crappy scientific papers that I can never assume that somebody has measured the proper proper thing.
+
+[56:17] Ken, what are your thoughts? I'll hand it over to you. Yeah, I agree with your jaundice assessment of the scientific literature. And because of it, I'd hesitate to answer what exactly was going on in those studies unless I'd read them and
+
+[56:32] pored over those kinds of details. Well, it's certainly true that in the popular literature, and in the press releases of people like Mayor Bloomberry, salt and sodium are used interchangeably, and there's no attempt to get sodium out of our fast
+
+[56:51] food out of our diets. There's only an attempt to reduce the amount of solve. And, well, that the question is, how are they going to measure it? Like, am I allowed to then add some sodium some sodium compound and then add a chloride compound and end up with sodium chloride in my in my
+
+[57:07] product? Is that legal? Is that going to be okay now? I mean, the whole thing about reducing salt seems to be, I guess it's the next crazy thing that's going to happen to us, huh? I think it's it is time for all good people to start
+
+[57:21] doing and reading more of the research. I'm publishing it in letters to the New York Times. And the
+
+[57:28] LA Times and the San Francisco Chronicle. I mean, it seems and, you know, Kent and I have talked about this a lot. Kent, you should come on the show sometime, actually. We've talked about this a lot, which is no one, even scientists who are researching things outside of their normal field, like
+
+[57:44] doctors, tend not to do the tend not to do the level of research into the quality of the science that they're quoting when they talk about nutrition. And so much of it is just crap. Um, and crap based on other crap. If you read the, you know, the citations of some of these studies site, which is why whenever I research something, I end up having to read five, 600
+
+[58:09] pages, because you have to burrow back and find the source of crap. And, you know, I know, Jeffrey, you do this whenever you research something, you'll research something and then the sites of the sites and the sites of the sites, but who has the time? I mean, Jeffries made a career on being thorough. You know what I mean? But you know, most people don't. But, you know, one thing that I took a back in, say, you know, 1992
+
+[58:30] and I, if I read all all the literature as of that time, there was no doubt there was nothing to show that there was a connection, but between eating salt and then having a blood blood pressure, except among, say, 6% of the
+
+[58:49] population to the population. And the head of the, um, of the New York hospital,
+
+[58:55] uh, comprehensive hypertension study, but certainly agree with me. He thought it wasn't as high as 6%. He's what it was, you know, as low as 5%. Then all of a sudden, I noticed 5 years ago that there was a, but by the way, there were a lot of doctors and scientists at that time who
+
+[59:16] founded but very threatening because their whole lives have been based on a career of advising people not to eat salt.
+
+[59:26] But the backlash back in those days was not very
+
+[59:33] strong. And then I noticed starting 5 years ago, there was a huge and sudden campaign. By all these people again sold. And I thought we had defeated that. That's what I thought. I thought it was all good, and then some of some medical students sent me, you know, sent me a letter or an email, you know, you know,
+
+[59:55] saying, strong yard, you know, don't you realize you were totally wrong about, and then we had many exchanges? And they... There was a big worldwide study called the Intrasold Study, and I can't remember exactly what it was. It was 1988 or no, in 89. Um, and all over the world. The people took urine samples in order to determine how salt had been eaten by that person. And I took their blood pressure. They took several urine samples from each person and they sent it to different laboratories in Europe, but after freezing it. I mean, it was a massive and that seems to me to have been an extremely meticulous study. And there was a correlation. But after you eliminated certain, if I may call
+
+[1:00:51] them, uh, primitive people who ate no salt at all, because they didn't have any salt. So,
+
+[1:00:58] like the end of Momo Indians, who were always used as kind of poster Indians for
+
+[1:01:04] for this proposition. But even ignoring the fact that between 13rd and a half of all the males
+
+[1:01:14] and the Yanamongo society died from the homicides. They have other issues, they do. Many other issues that I think probably came from not having enough salt. So they packed those strange narcotics into their noses because of lack of salt. Okay, so if you eliminated for extremely low sold societies, If you only had kind of normal people, there was no coralition. Alright. Well, they're going to make us leave soon. Brandon comments had a question on ice, which I'll address on the blog in a post coming up soon. So Brandon, sorry to keep you waiting, but I have one question that came in from, I believe, Ben at Little Wing, and he wants to hear Jeffrey
+
+[1:01:52] Steingarten's opinion on what makes the perfect French fries. So what we're going to do is I'm going to sign off now and then I'm going to have Jeffrey just talk about the perfect French fry until they cut us off.
+
+[1:02:02] This is cooking issues with Jeffrey Steingarden and Nastasia Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday
+
+[1:02:07] to this week, an hour from 12 to one and Jeffrey, the perfect French fry, if you would. Thank you very much, David. very enjoyable. Oh, thank. Very enjoyable. Well, except... But we're not on the air anymore. No, we're on the air. They're going to let you talk about French fries for a minute, and at certain points, like the Oscars, the musical coming. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. But I think the characteristics of the French fry have been, I think, laid out, although it didn't
+
+[1:02:44] take you get brain surgery, by Dave on his, on the blog. Thank you. Um, Chris. but very friable outside. Not too thick. Um, and almost like mashed potatoes inside. Yeah, there's another kind of perfect French fry, which is hollow inside. You don't like that. But it can be also delicious because it is like a long, a long, rectangular baton
+
+[1:03:16] shaped potato chip. And as we know, potato chips are as good as French fries. They're delicious. They are. Oh, I must also say he wanted to know about horse fat because he hasn't tasted. He wants to know your opinion on horse fat and fries. Oh, there's no doubt to me that horse fried gives you the best fries. And after I wrote my article. I was kind of sad about this because I had a hard, hard time getting horse fed. And then someone I knew in Paris. Actually, it was, um, it was Alex, um, Alex Guanashelli, who's now a chef. who was working as a research assistant for Patricia Wells, and she found in a supermarket. These sticks of horse fat, they were packaged like butter. In where? Paris, France? Oh, we should go. We should go. I wonder whether those still doing that. I wonder whether it's constitutional. that how Congress has passed laws against the eating of horses in America. Well, the French have always been great horse eaters. I've just been reminded by Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, that I've forgotten to mention our sponsor. Today's excellent show was brought to you by the good folks at tech serve. Tech Service, New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider serving individual customers, creative professionals and Fortune 100 companies. Tech service built a solid reputation on expertise in technology sales and service as a company that believes in honest and forthright business practices, tech service, proud to
+
+[1:04:47] sponsor, heritage radio network, and the promotion of sustainable lifestyles, but they're for Mac only people. Cooking issues, and thank you to Jeffrey Steingarten. Fishes, fish, rock, crap. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Hello,
+
+[0:17] you are listening to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues where you call in with all your cooking related questions here in the studio today with Nastasia
+
+[0:26] Lopez, Cooking Issues Hammer. Call in all of your cooking questions to 718-497-2120-718-497-2120. We hear every Tuesday from noon to noon 45. That's 718-497-2128. Oh, sorry. 7718. Scratch that. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I am not going to put any blame here, but Nastasia told me to wrote down as 2120. So, you know, it's the 1st time we've ever given the wrong number on the air. So we apologize. Yeah, all right, all right. So while we're waiting for you to call in, I will answer a few questions people have sent in. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. My name is Lucy. I'm about to start college at Northeastern in Boston. Congratulations. Well, I'm very excited to get my life started in the pseudo-real world of college. I'm sad to be losing access to a kitchen. Unfortunately, they won't let Lucy have anything in her dorm room like hot plates
+
+[1:24] or what else do they say she can't have? Basically anything with an open burner, no toaster ovens, and no hot plates. So what is she what is she going to do? Because right now she has just an immersion blender and a food processor, but she really wants to be able to cook. All right, listen. First of all, here's the bad news. Whoever your RA is, whoever they call those things nowadays, they're probably going to be too stupid to realize it's something like an induction burner is not like a fire hazard, and so they probably won't let you have an induction unit, even though they are freaking
+
+[1:54] awesome and they're completely safe and you should be able to have them in college. So before you buy one, make an argument with your with your person, you should be able to have an induction unit because they don't actually produce heat unless a pan is on them.
+
+[2:06] And even then, they're not they're not a fire hazard, the way that other things are. Okay, now, assume, I'm going to make a couple assumptions about you. One, you're not, you know, overly wealthy because you're a college student. Two, you don't really care about rules all that much, right? So one way to get around it is, if your RA is not the smartest person in the world or they just don't care. They make things that are microwave toaster oven combinations, that look for all the world just like a microwave, that have an infrared heater in the top of it. So it just looks like a microwave and yet acts like a, acts like a toaster oven. So that's one way because, you know, I'm not so much about rules. Another thing you can do. They used to make in the 50s. and I actually, this is what I did in college. I bought, I went to a thrift shop and I bought a Westinghouse turkey oven. And these are things that they used to make in the 1950s and they look like overgrown crock pots. Crock pots, another thing you can have, by the way. They look like overgrown crock pots. And they were meant to cook a turkey in in Thanksgiving time so that your oven would be free for whatever else you were
+
+[3:05] doing, and you could cook a turkey in this countertop oven. I had one of those, and I used it to bake bread. In fact, I wooed my current wife. One of the things I did was I used to break bake bread for her in my dorm room in this Westinghouse oven, and they're pretty, they're pretty safe looking. No one's even going to know what the hell it is. And I think I spent, I don't know, $2 on mine in the thrift shop, you know, maybe you could look on eBay, something like that. So that's an option for you. Here's some more options. If you're willing to get a little more involved. Now is a perfect time to get started with low temperature and sous vide cooking, right? Now, I'm assuming you don't have $800 to go spend on a new immersion circulator. An immersion circulator, for those of you that are listening, is basically a piece of equipment that allows you to heat water or any liquid, really, to a very accurate
+
+[3:46] temperature, and to achieve really kind of stunning results in a very small amount of
+
+[3:50] space and have it be repeatable every single time. And you don't need a big vacuum machine to run this. All you need to do is be able to put your food into Ziploc bags. Now, I almost, I never recommend making your own
+
+[4:02] or buying one used on eBay, even though that's what I used to do, because it's actually very nice to have the brand new one and, you know, I deal with restaurants and they shouldn't really have crab together
+
+[4:12] things, and I want Philip Preston from Polyscience, my friend, to get as much business as humanly possible on his brand new circulator, which is now available in William Sonoma for, I think,
+
+[4:21] 7 or $800, something like that. However, it is very easy to build your own immersion circulator. They're not quite as nice. You can look on the web. I've done it myself back in the day for as little as $50 if you're really a good eBay searcher. But even if you buy all the stuff new, you can get everything, everything, uh, for
+
+[4:39] about, for under 150, $150, $200, uh, good place to look for cheap temperature controllers is Auber
+
+[4:46] Instruments, A-U-B-E-R, uh, dot com. You can also, then, you know, you can use things like immersion coffee heaters, like those little things you're supposed to put in coffee mugs. You get like 3 or 4 or 5 of those because you need a 1000 watts of heating, basically. And an aquarium pump. And then once you have the temperature control with a thermocouple in it, a bunch of heaters and a pump, you're done. I mean, it's kind of, you know, crabbed together. I will warn you about this as well. I shock the hell out of myself the 1st couple times I built this because those heaters leak a little bit of electricity, but if you're willing to spend a little bit of time, I could build one probably from parts in under an hour,
+
+[5:18] but, you know, if you've never done it before, give yourself like 4 hours, but, you know, it's fairly easy to do. There's a bunch of websites devoted to this. In fact, in our forums, there's a section on and cooking issues forums. There's a section where people have posted some of their do-it-yourself circulators. And, you know, that's a good way to go in a dorm because it doesn't, you know, there's no open
+
+[5:37] flame, and you could put out, like, serious restaurant quality food out your dorm with that. Now here's the problem. In order to do really good low temperature work. You need to be able to put a really good sear on something when it's done, right? Now, here's where I'm about to recommend something that you're not supposed to do. See, they think your microwave is safe because they've never seen someone really use a microwave. Now, I'm not just talking getting a case of light bulbs out of the closet and blowing them up every Saturday night, which is what I used to do. You can use a microwave to get up to 800 degrees Celsius. Well, wait, like, I forget what that is. It like 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, something absurd. Here's what you do. You go to the hardware store. Get yourself some silicon carbide, silicon carbide sharpening stones, right? You put insulating fire bricks around and put them in your microwave, turn it on, walk away in about 10 minutes. Those silicone carbide blocks are going to be glowing red, red hot, okay? Because they what's called a micro, they accept microwaves. They absorb microwaves. So looking carbide does. Now, you have like an amazing hot rock searing plate where you can sear the bejesus out of anything. You can melt metal. You can use your microwave to smelt metal. You can do some serious thing. Look up metal smelter microwave. There's an article on it popular science in 2003. You can melt meal in your microwave. You can certainly sear a piece of meat in it. So just get a couple of silicon carbide, sharpening stones, insulate them somehow with
+
+[6:55] fire brake or with, you know, corningware on top of like little things, and then turn it up till it glows red
+
+[7:00] hot, and searware to your heart's content. Do not light your dorm on fire. It's her 1st year at college. Well, I mean, if it was anything like my 1st year of college, this will be the safest thing she's done. Anyway, I'm not saying to go do that. I'm just saying these are options. These are options. All right, Nastasia, they're options. We have a call. All right. Hope that helps, Lucy. Hi, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, good to talk to you. This is Derek calling from Seattle. Hey, Derek. Uh, I'm looking for some tips on doing sous vide pot roast. So, um, I like things that are done at a little bit lower temperature. My wife likes things that are done at a little bit higher temperature. So I'm trying to find the sweet spot where, uh, I get something that kind of has the texture of a traditional braise, which is what my wife
+
+[7:45] likes. It's something that's not quite so dried out. Okay. Here, are you using a vacuum machine or using Ziplocs or what are you using? I'm using a vacuum machine and then a used lab circulating bath. Oh, yeah. Which one, by the way? which company? It's a Fisher scientific? Okay, so that's probably most likely it's an old poly-science, because they used to build fishers as well as, I think, VWRs, I think. Anyway. So here's what I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing to be careful of, obviously, with used circulators is that a lot of times the bearings and things go bad. Here's what I would recommend. There's no way to get a completely tradition. First of all, overreduce your sauce before you put it in the bag. That's the 1st thing you always need to do. Overreduce it well beyond what you think a normal brave should be because the meat when it cooks in the bag is going to release juices and seriously water down your juice.
+
+[8:35] That's the 1st step. Okay? And it's a classic mistake people make. The other one is, is that, you know, although you can go as low as 57 degrees or even lower when you're doing this,
+
+[8:45] right? Most people prefer more of a traditional temperature, I find a happy medium is somewhere between 60 and 62 Celsius,
+
+[8:52] okay? Once you get up, although some people cook as high as 70. I think once you get above 65 or so, you're losing a lot of the benefits of low temperature cooking, but then in that 60 to
+
+[9:02] 62, 63 zone is a nice happy medium. It's just barely still pink. It's still got a lot of moistness to it and you're going to have, I think you're going to have a good result. But some people go as high as 70, even in the bag, and you can try that too. It's still going to retain more moisture than it would cooking in a traditional, in a brave situation, but just make sure to over-reduce your sauce. And I think a happy medium is going to be somewhere between 60 and 62. I would also really burn the hell out, not burn. But you know what I mean? Really roast the hell out of some scrap meat and throw it in the bag and it's going to give some of those higher temperature flavors that your wife is craving, but still retained from the texture that you want. Does that help? Uh, yeah, I will say I've done it in the uh, in the rain, but I think I did it at about 65 for for 24 hours. I think 11 issue that I have is it didn't quite soften up enough for
+
+[9:47] her and and and I'm typically using grass fed beef. So I'm wondering uh what sort of difference that makes. So at 62, you're going to want to go for 2 days. about a little under 2 at 60 you're going to want to go for 2 days. So I think maybe you should also try going a little bit longer. So like a good number for like a short rib. You know, slightly different, a good number for a short rib would be 60 degrees Celsius for 48 to 5050 hours, somewhere in that range.
+
+[10:10] And so 62 to 63, you're going to want to go around the same amount of time. I wouldn't go as high as 65 because that's right where you're going to squeeze a bunch of water out, so you might as well go a little higher if you're going to go 65. It stay in the 62, 63, 60 to 63 range in there for about 2 days. Sounds great. All right, give it a shot. All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you. We have another caller? I think we do. Hello, you're on the air. Hi, yeah, my name is Dennis and I'm a big fan of you guys. Do you mind if I ask, like, a career question, a cooking focus question? Sure. Okay. Um, speaking of fan, I, uh, I am of you. I gotta say, I'm kind of jealous of what you do. Um, you know, just thinking about food all the time and experimenting, being on sort of that intellectual side, you know, things. I'm a cook right now. I cook at a very, um, well-regarded restaurant in DC, but I'm really a lot more interested in more of a research or teaching role, something in more academic
+
+[11:10] setting, potentially eventually. Right. And I was wondering, if you have any advice or how you got to where our bills you have or what you
+
+[11:19] did, may have helped you get what you're doing right now. That's an excellent question. So I knew that I didn't really want to be a restaurant chef because it just wasn't in me. It's not in me to go and pound out, you know, a service every day. I'm not organized enough to be a real restaurant chef, which I think you really, really need to be. The one skill that I did have that's really helpful, still have, I hope, is that I can read anything almost and understand what's going on.
+
+[11:47] So from a research standpoint. You want to be able to, 1st of all, you want to be very curious. You want to be able to absorb things and you want to be able to focus on problems very, very closely. That's like, that's the 1st thing to do. I mean, to do precisely what I do, right? Now, to be involved in just a food world in general, I think, um, you know, if you're not going to be a cook, then, you know, then, and you still want to be
+
+[12:10] in, in the, in the field. I mean, writing, if you can write, is a very good is a good way to do it. I mean, I know a lot of people that have done that, you know, for instance, my sister-in-law, uh, you know, Wiley
+
+[12:21] DuFrey's wife, my sister-in-law, which is actually my wife's sister, she, you know, went to French culinary where I
+
+[12:25] teach, and she's now the, you know, editor-in-chief of the Food Network magazine. So, I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of different pathways, whether it being writing or in media. Now, on the research side, you know, there's a couple of things you can do there. I know some people that do, you know, consultancy work or they have, you know, specific high-tech catering kind of catering opportunities where they don't necessarily want it, but they want to spend more time researching because in a catering thing, you can, you know, focus on one job and you don't have a daily pound out of a service and you can get more time to
+
+[12:55] focus. The main problem with the kind of cooking that I do at the French culinary is that it's very hard to do when you have a daily service to grind out because you just don't have the time to focus on solving
+
+[13:05] problems that, you know, and you're not necessarily going to be able, if you take a job at a big company doing kind of cooking in that way, you're not necessarily going to be able to focus on problems that interest
+
+[13:15] you. But there are places that have jobs like that, like cuisine solutions, who does a lot of low temperature work. They hired someone who, uh, that I know, you know, who went to the French culinary and he gets to do a lot of research, a lot of interesting work. So there are opportunities out there, but I think to, you know, just to do this kind of work, you just, you know, you need to be able to, you know, it's like what Wiley does too. Wiley reads all patent, you know, patents constantly. He's constantly reading. So I think, you know, if you're very curious and you always want to learn. It helps if you can write, but it's not, you know, necessarily, you know,
+
+[13:43] prerequisite, but, um, you know, I'm sorry, I couldn't give any more specific advice, but, uh, that's, um, that's kind of what I did.
+
+[13:52] I don't know if... Really? All right. Well, thanks for thanks for calling. And you can, you know, always post anything to our to our forums or to the blog and, you know, we'll try and help you out. I like anyone to get in this field that can. Surely will. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Hello? Hello, you're on the air. Hi, this is Dan from New York. Hey Dan. Hey, so I just have a, I guess, a question. I'm cooking this chicken. I got a heritage chicken for the 1st time, and it smells a little, I guess, sulfuric because it has, I guess, blood in the bag. And I was wondering, what should I do in terms, will that affect the taste or how should I cook that or should I even cook it? Well, it smells like, like sulfur or like, like, like,
+
+[14:30] like rotting, smell like it's rotting? No, just like when I when I asked before, they said it was something about how it's packaged with the blood and it's just a little strong. So it is kind of old, um, because I had gotten it through this roundabout way. And yeah. So I was just wondering, do you think that's safe to eat? And if so, should I worry about the flavor at all? Was the bag, did the was the bag inflated at all? was it? No, no, I mean, the bird looks beautiful itself. It's just... And the bag was still tight. Yeah, still tight, still everything. It was a cryo bag, right? Correct. Okay. Does it doesn't smell blue cheesy at all, right? No, it's just like it has a strong arm. It might not even be so free. It just smells like something, and I was kind of curious if that would be in the taste. All right. Well, if you smelled rotten chicken before, then, you know, and it smells like that, then I would avoid.
+
+[15:18] Um, you could try just giving it like a quick dip rinse in in, um, in, uh, in water, vinegar, a little bit to try and see what happens to it, pull it out, see
+
+[15:28] how, see how it smells. I have been in your situation before, where you really want to cook something. You really want it to work and you really want it to be delicious because you've been thinking about it, right? So, um, and then like you've handed over to your wife and they smell it and they're like, are you freaking cracked? Are you going to serve that to me? Do you know what I mean? So that's another that's another good thing to do. Like, if you feel nervous about it, I wouldn't, I wouldn't bother with it. Or if you really want to, I would test it on yourself. I would cook it for yourself. I've done that before too. Test it on yourself and just eat it yourself and see what you think rather than subjecting your friends and family to it. I'm sorry that I can't give anything kind of more specific because I can't smell it,
+
+[16:06] but, you know, as a general rule of thumb, never serve to someone else, anything that even makes you a little bit nervous. I mean, that's kind of a rule that I like to live by because I do serve bizarre things quite often and I want people to trust me. So, you know, as far as I know, I haven't gotten anyone horribly
+
+[16:23] sick. I'd like to kind of maintain that record. I think it's kind of a good call, but, you know, if you feel comfortable with it, by all
+
+[16:28] means cook it yourself and see, uh, you know, eat it yourself and see, see what you think. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you. All right, thank you. Have a good one. You too. It always makes me nervous, Nastasia, to cook something if you think it might be bad, right? Bear. The bear was not bad. We're talking about the bear we cooked in the thing. Nastasia is nervous that the bear had trichinosis, which is indeed possible. Trichinosis is a worm that infects muscles. It's an awful disease. It's measured in a number of worms per square, per cubic centimeter muscle masks, terrible disease to get. However, you kill it by cooking it, which is what I did, Nastasia. should have eaten that bear. Nastasia apparently not taking Jeffrey Steingard's advice last week, some of the best advice you'll ever hear on learning to become a good
+
+[17:12] eater. Jeffrey Steingarten, one of the best best eaters that I've ever met. They eat everything. You know, so long as it's safe, he would eat something that's unsafe because that's Jeffrey. But, you know, as long as it's safe, you should try it. Anyway. So, uh, I think we're coming up on our 1st yeah, 1st commercial break here. We're coming back at you in a couple minutes, cooking issues. How you feel, bro? You feeling good? Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feeling, Bella? Hey, jam! You're getting down. Look at him! We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[18:19] All right. You wanna do it again? You wanna do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.
+
+[18:42] Now I want everybody. Let red blow it by two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. They're host of cooking issues. Call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And while we're waiting, let us take a question from an email question. So Bob Good writes in. And he says, I liked your write-up of herb grinders on the website, but how do they fit in? How do they compare to a mortar and pestle at home? And keeping wife his wife's motto is clutters, the enemy. Sounds like our wives would be good friends. So for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, herb grinder is the euphemism for a marijuana grinder that pot, you know, pot users, potheads, as I lovingly call them,
+
+[19:35] used to kind of grind up their marijuana before they roll it into a cigarette or stuff
+
+[19:39] in a pipe, whatever they're going to do with it. Now, they're a fantastic way to grind up small quantities of spices when you don't want to, you know, coffee grinders, they don't really work for small quantities because the blades don't don't hit your
+
+[19:49] spices. They're fantastic. And you can look on our website at ground. I don't know what I do, like 10 different spices, 15, 10, some of that. So you can see kind of what results you get on different spices. Now, the question Bob has is, listen, I already have a mortar and pestle at home. So why do I need this? You're probably, you know, Bob, you're probably right. If your mortar and pestle is small enough to be handy, they work pretty well, unless you have a big problem with your mortar and
+
+[20:10] pesto with spices bouncing out of it. I don't know that you need to have this as well. This is, you know, mostly uh, uh, useful for someone like me who's at a cooking school and you don't want to lug a lug around your
+
+[20:20] modern pestle or if you're going to be cooking off site. They're incredibly tiny. So you could stick it kind of in your, you know, right next to your peeler in your utensil drawer. So it's useful having around. At home, I use my mortar and pestle, but when I'm at school, I use the herb grinder. So, I hope that was helpful. I think that answered that question. Ray Mack 007 asked. He was thinking about cooling sauces and then vacuum putting them in vacuum bags and storing them in his freezer until needed. Are there any downsides to storing sauces this way? Not really. I mean, it's a really good way to store something because when you once you put it in a vacuum bag, you're not going to have any water loss or kind of freezer burn
+
+[21:00] problems as long as the vacuum bags that you're using are, you know, are oxygen and
+
+[21:06] permeable. They're meant for freezer storage. You want to get ones that are meant for cooking and chilling. And then the great thing about bagging. sorry. vacing down sauces, is that you can then throw those bags directly into hot water and reheat them in the bag without the possibility of scorching them or
+
+[21:26] or, you know, having any sort of problems. In fact, you can reheat several different kinds of sauces at the same time in the same
+
+[21:31] water if you have them all in bags. So it really is a very good way to do it, if you're doing large quantities. And, you know, they'll really last a long time that way. And he says, he's assuming that emulsion-based sauces would not be a candidate for this process, I would guess that's probably right. You can freeze emulsion-based sauces is if you stabilize them, you know, with different stabilizers, but I've never really experimented that because I haven't tried to get extended storage out of sauces
+
+[21:57] in bags that way. I mean, it's not kind of my focus is always on kind of achieving new quality benchmarks instead of trying to necessarily extend the shelf
+
+[22:06] life. But if I was doing it for my house or for a restaurant where that was useful, I'm sure I would have researched how to make an
+
+[22:12] emulsion, kind of not breaking the bag. There are people that have done that kind of work. So it's definitely definitely possible. So, I would go ahead and do that. also a great way to store fruit purees. They, the sauces all of a sudden, they store flat in bags, they're frozen. They're really easy to reheat. So I think that's a really good, that's a really good technique. Now, before I answer, the next question I have, I just want to say that last
+
+[22:38] week, New York magazine really shoved it to me, they really gave me the shaft, because they wrote up my favorite tomato, that I
+
+[22:46] weight every freaking year. I wait for this tomato. Uh, it's the Ant Ruby's German green tomato from Stokes Farm there at the Union Square
+
+[22:54] Green Market. They're on Saturdays. And I think also Wednesdays, the other day they're there. Um, and their Aunt Ruby's German green is the greatest tomato I have ever had. My favorite tomato in New York magazine wrote their particular one up as the greatest tomato in New York. And consequently now, they're completely wiped out. Like I got there at noon and they said they'd been sold out since 10 AM because everyone from New York magazine, apparently, who reads the magazine, went and bought all of this, all of Stokes
+
+[23:22] Farms tomatoes. So I was pretty bent, pretty bent about that. Luckily for me, their 2nd favorite tomato of the, you know, in the
+
+[23:31] Newf magazine was the German stripe, which by the way, Aunt Ruby was a real human being, and Aunt Ruby Arnold, no relation to me. And, you know, she not only came up with the, with the, with the Aunt Ruby's German Green, I believe she was also the source or one of the sources for the German stripe, which is a huge
+
+[23:47] red, yellow and red, beautiful tomato. And the, um, Stokes also has that. my 2nd favorite of their tomatoes. growing that one too. Yeah, but apparently your landlord made you throw them away. Anyway, so yeah. Anyway, so but Stokes is Stokes is excellent, but they didn't write up Stokes's as being the 2nd best. So they cleaned out some other farmer's German stripe and cleaned out his rubies. So I spent this weekend eating stripes, which are also excellent. But it brings me to my pet peeve, which is, 1st of all, you can't just call out a tomato variety and say it's great, right?
+
+[24:22] You know, because I've had Aunt Ruby's German green, which is a large green kind of like weird shaped tomato and the bottom gets a pinkish red blush when
+
+[24:29] when it's ripening up. Because, you know, look at the bottom of a tomato, not the part attached to the
+
+[24:33] plant to see kind of that, it ripens from there 1st and travels up towards the, where it attaches to the plant. And it also softens at the bottom 1st and gets, and
+
+[24:41] it goes harder as it goes up to the top. So when you're judging the ripeness of a tomato, you want to look at the bottom first, right? See how she's going. And you have to know what an Aunt Ruby looks like. It should start getting. I think it should start getting that pink flush at the bottom and I think it should be getting a little soft, although the guys at Stokes disagree with me on
+
+[24:55] this because they don't want you mangling their tomatoes by picking them up and squeezing them because that is a rotten thing to do to their tomatoes. Don't do that. Now, here's the, I don't know how I got on that, but here's the thing. Their Aunt Rubies are sublime and other people's Aunt Rubies are crap, right? Different tomato varieties taste very different depending on where they're grown, how they're grown, you know, the
+
+[25:17] location, the type of soil and everything. It's not enough to just say, I like Aunt Rubies. You have to say, I like, although they are, by and large, an excellent variety. You have to say, I like this farmer's Aunt Rubies. I like that farmer's Aunt Rubies. So you know, you can't just go and buy a variety. You really have to find a supplier, a farmer that you like and get their tomatoes of that particular variety. I mean, that's the thing, I think. Also, people then, they just put out big, you know, farm stands. Hey, these are all heirloom tomatoes. I'm like, that's great. 80% of these taste like like nothing. They're garbage. Like a lot of heirloom tom- I apologize. A lot of heirloom tomatoes don't taste that great or they don't have that great a texture. And so you'll go to these farmers stands and they'll have heirloom
+
+[25:57] tomatoes, and this happened to me before, because I feel when I see something I've never had before, I'm compelled to try it. Like, I'm compelled to try it. That's just kind of how I am. And there's a farmer's market right by my house in the Lower East Side on Sundays. And I was like, saw a tomato. I was like, oh, this looks interesting because it had a shape of an Aunt Ruby, but it was red with like very thin yellow, yellow stripes through it. And I was like, what variety is this? He goes, I don't know, it's an heirloom tomato. like, you're, you're, uh, I can't curse on the radio. I'm trying to think of something to say, you know, to insult the man because, you know, thank you. Now I can't ever replicate this experience. Thank you. You know what I mean? heirloom tomato. That's like saying, it's a vehicle with 4 wheels. Well, is it a Mac truck? Is it a Hyundai? You know, am I getting a Lincoln continental or am I getting a gremlin? You know what I mean? I don't know. You know what I mean? Please, you know, like, tell the, if you're not actually the farmer at the market. At least tell the people the varieties that you're selling so that we can figure out what the hell's going on as
+
+[26:53] eaters. Anyway, that tomato. I was even angrier because I bought it and it went home. I was hoping it would suck, and then I wouldn't have to worry about trying to find it again, only it was delicious.
+
+[27:03] You know what I mean? And even tomatoes, some tomatoes look fairly similar, but they're different. Like there's this tomato called the Everlast, which looks like an Aunt Ruby. If you're not experienced with it, but it isn't, it's a little more yellow than a ruby. Anyway. So that's my stupid spiel on heirloom tomatoes. Have you tasted your stripes yet, Stasi? I only had one. And how was it? It was good, but it was really tiny. Why the hell did you? Why did you pick it when it wasn't ready yet? I think the container I'm growing in it is really small, so it only allows for tiny tomatoes. Yeah. Tiny tomatoes. That's my next band name right there, Italian tomatoes. All right. Let me take an email question. Ryan Santos wants to know about the book called The Handbook of Hydrocoloids. He says he's interested in hydrocoloids and modern cooking, and most of his recipes he's done are just adapting other people's recipes for using hydrocoloids. And for those of you that don't know what what I'm talking about, hydrocollids are a group of basically complex sugars, polysaccharides, you know, gums, whatever you want to call them, that are used to thicken and gel, uh, used to thicken and
+
+[28:06] gel uh, you know, different products. So Xanthan gum, carrogen, and these sorts of things. And most people do just adapt other cooks recipes and that's fine. But if you want to learn more, where do you go? He was mentioning a book called The Handbook of Hydrocoloids. That's like a $200 book. It's very technical. I read it. It was very useful to me, but I wouldn't be the 1st book on hydrocolloids I would get. The 1st book, again, on hydrocoloids, is put out by the Egan Press. I think it's, I forget how to spell it. It's like an E-A-G-A-N press. Uh, which is a portion of the associate, the association of American cereal chemist or something like that. It's a very thin book. It's only 60 60 something dollars. You can get it to kitchen arts and letters. The world's greatest cookbook store, at least the world's greatest that I've been to. It's here in New York City up in the 90s on Lexington Avenue. And it's a great introduction to hydrocaloid. It's extremely useful. It has a bunch of tables and charts in it that talk about, you know, the problems when you try and mix different hydrocolloids together. It has flow charts of trying to figure out, you know, how to choose what hydrocollage
+
+[29:07] you use for different systems. Extremely readable, extremely useful. In fact, there's a that whole, Egan Press put out a bunch of books. They have one on starches, which is excellent. They have one on sugars, which is excellent. Their multiplier one I didn't think was so useful for cooks, but I would definitely start there. If you were hungering for more technical information after that book. You know, then, by all means, go to the handbook of hydrocoloids, but the handbook of hydrocoloids is set up as a, as an ingredient by ingredient, um, book, it's like 300 and something
+
+[29:38] pages, and it's like, you know, here's Agar. Here's the chemical formula, you know, for Agar. And then, you know, here it's various properties. So, you know, I think it's useful to a small number of cooks, but not as useful as it could be and not necessarily $200 worth of useful if you can go get the
+
+[29:56] Egan Press book instead. They used to run a deal on the serial chemist website. You have to really search around for it, where you could buy a one-year subscription to all of the Egan Press books for 99 bucks, and then you could download all of them on
+
+[30:11] PDF for just $99. And that's in fact what I did. So I have them all on PDF like the, you know, fats, which is another good
+
+[30:19] one actually. And I even have the ones that are useless to me, like food colorings, useless,
+
+[30:24] non-nutritive sweeteners, a.k.a. all the things to make diet soda and whatnot. Also fairly useless for me. But, you know, me, once I have access to it, I'm going to download it because that's just the way I am. I'm a sucker for a sunk cost. You know, it's why I don't go to all you can eat, all you can eat restaurants anymore because you have to roll me out of those things in a wheelbarrow.
+
+[30:43] First of all, I, you know, like, obviously, you know, I'm not going to eat, don't be a chump and go eat the salad bar, you know,
+
+[30:49] like hit the most expensive. Literally I don't care whether I like it or not. I walk into an all you can eat restaurant. I 0 in on whatever has the highest food cost for that restaurant instantly. Instantly. And then I fill an entire plate with whatever that is, whatever it is. I pound a couple plates of that. Then once I'm sick of eating the most expensive thing they have, I find the 2nd most expensive thing they
+
+[31:08] have. And I continue to eat that until I'm sick of that item. Two or 3 items down the line, I'll start feeling physically sick, but it's not until my wife pulls me away because she's disgusted to stand next to me.
+
+[31:19] That is when I stop and leaving all you can eat restaurant. I have similar problems with open bars. So I try to avoid these kinds of things now because, you know, as
+
+[31:27] you as you get older, it's more and more unseemly to be to be doing this sort of thing. I don't know how the hell I got it. Oh yes, it's because I downloaded even the useless books. This is what it's like to be me, by the way. That's what it that's what it boils down to. I hope I hope that answered, answered your question. And I think you want to go to one more commercial break? All right, let's go to one more commercial break. Cooking issues, calling your questions too. 718. What is it, Nastasia? 718. Oh my god, I can't believe this. 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:10] Bad whiskey. Bad, bad whiskey. Bad, bad, bad whiskey made me lose my happy home. When I left home this morning. I promise I would think To stay real straight and sober. I swore I wouldn't drink. Bad, bad, was scared. Bad, bad whiskey. Bad, bad whiskey made me lose my happy home. Master all the pool hearts. Gave the bars and slip. before the night was over. I started in to sit. Bad, bad brisket. Bad, bad this kid. Coming back at you with cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Call in your questions. You have another 10, 15 minutes to call in your questions to 718-497-2128.
+
+[33:41] That's 718-497-2128. And today's cooking issues is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural,
+
+[33:54] grass-fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. And for more information, they would like you to go to www.hearstranch.com. That's one word, www.herstranch.com. And although, you know, I've never had the beef from Hearst Ranch, you know, if they want to send me some, I would love to try it.
+
+[34:22] Um, I want to
+
+[34:26] say that last week, apparently, I did not give our sponsor tech serve enough of
+
+[34:31] a run because I forgot about mentioning it until the very end of the show and basically blasted through it, you know, at the speed of sound as fast as I could speak,
+
+[34:40] which when I want to is quite quickly. And I used to do that in debate in high school, speak very quickly. It a technique called spreading for all of those who didn't go to debate in high school. Anyway, so I apologize to tech serve, a fine, a fine service for fixing your computer, tech serve. All right? Nastachi, feel better now? Yeah, that's better. Oh, and by the way, uh, Mr. Santos, his 2nd part of his question was, how do you get, I swear to God, how do
+
+[35:04] you, how do I get a date with the hammer? And I have to say, don't bother trying with that one. Don't, you know, she's, uh, you know, I would, I would stay away from that one, right, Sazi? right? I'm just kidding, Nastasia. Just kidding. All right. Brandon asks. Using larger ice with reduced surface area will reduce the rate at which ice dilutes a cocktail, but how does that affect how long it holds temperature in a finished drink? Well, using larger ice, whole temperature in a drink longer with less dilution and smaller ice. Okay. He's not very concerned about shaking or stirring, he's mostly worried about the final drink. Okay, and how does that differ from something that has been chilled? Basically, as opposed to something that's coming from room temp, for instance, pouring a spear on the rocks. All right, here's the here is the answer to this question. As far as I can tell, that particular experiment, I haven't run in probably a year and a
+
+[35:57] half . But my memory of it is this. A larger ice cube will, in fact, dilute less in your in the cocktail, but it will not keep it as cold. Now, what are we talking about? If you put a lot of small ice in? Stir a drink? You put small ice in, that drink will probably hover around
+
+[36:16] the, like, one, you know, one or 2 It's going to start out at like minus anywhere between -4 and minus a half a degree Celsius, depending on how they stir it. Okay? That's going to be the range. A shaken drink is going to be in the range of -7 to -3 degrees
+
+[36:34] Celsius if it's done properly. Okay? When you pour that drink into smaller cubes, it's going to maintain its temperature better, but it will get more diluted because of the extra surface area, especially if they throw
+
+[36:46] it, pour it onto ice, that you didn't shake off. You didn't get the water. You'll get an initial hit a dilution out of that, that's going to dilute it right out of the gate. In that case, I actually recommend using, don't yell at me cocktail people, please. I don't want to hear it, but, I mean, it's not, of course, I want to hear it. lets have an argument. I'm just kidding. But if I was going to shake a drink and then serve it kind of on
+
+[37:07] the rocks, I frankly think you'd be better off serving it with the things you shook with, especially if the ice was slightly
+
+[37:13] larger as they still looked good, because you've already gotten the surface water off of those things. Do you know what I mean? You're not adding extra surface water. But, you know, I'm sure there's people that'll disagree with me. And I'd be happy to have that discussion because I'm just thinking about this off the top of my head. A larger ice cube, uh, well, you know, so if you're using small ice cubes, let's assume you're going to maintain a temperature within a degree or 2 of
+
+[37:33] 0, um, for a while, you know, the experience I had with a big ice cube is that the
+
+[37:38] temperature is going to go up to about, you know, somewhere in the range of 5 degrees Celsius, somewhere like that. So it's not going to keep it anywhere near as cold. So long as it's cold enough, right, then I think it's going to be, it's going to
+
+[37:50] be, um, okay. Um, it's just not going to maintain um, the temperature nearly as well. If it maintains it enough for you, then I think that that's okay because remember, there's
+
+[38:01] a, it's very strict. There is no melting without chilling and there is no chilling without melting. So there's no way with an ice cube to keep a drink, well, unless you use freezer ice, but, you know, stay tuned. I promised last week I was going to post on the blog, but I spent like, you know, 10 hours working on the charts for the blog
+
+[38:22] post. So it's going to go up soon, I promise, on stirring and ice. But, um, you don't get to win. So you either get a drink that's more diluted because you had to melt more ice or you get a drink that's not as cold because it's not as diluted. basically a one-to-one. In fact, I'll spoil it a little bit. I gave a I did a test, right? So, when you're stirring a cocktail. When you're stirring a cocktail, it actually takes a long time for the cocktail to get to basically an equilibrium point where you're not really chilling that much more and you're not melting that much more.
+
+[38:53] It's a relative equilibrium because you're always, you know, you're losing energy to the to the atmosphere. So it's not, you know, real equilibrium. But you can definitely, when you look at a chart of temperature versus time as you're stirring. It basically drops very quickly at first, the temperature, and also is diluting a lot at first. And then it basically plateaus out, and you get only very small changes from there on out. But, uh, and when you're shaking a drink, that that curve plateaus very quickly, like in the in 12 to 15 seconds in there, you're basically hitting
+
+[39:19] the plateau. In a stir drink, it's quite a bit longer, like on the order of one or 2 minutes of stirring is where you hit the real plateau.
+
+[39:28] Um, so, uh, I did a test where instead of um, pulling basically stirring for 2 minutes until it was done, I put thermocouples in and I stirred with small ice until I hit exactly
+
+[39:42] uh, a certain temperature. I forget what it was. I had to go look up, but I think it was like -.6 Celsius, something like that, right? And I poured the drink out. Then I took small ice and stirred it until it reached exactly
+
+[39:55] minus .6 Celsius, poured it out. And both drinks had identical dilutions, identical. But one, right, was stirred in, I have to look it up, but it's something like 30
+
+[40:07] seconds, and the other one was stirred in like a minute. And so, you know, that's why stirring, why we said, I
+
+[40:14] think before, a couple times ago, there's kind of more of an art to stirring a
+
+[40:18] cocktail because you really can affect the dilution and the temperature of the drink by how long you stir, whether you stir fast, whether you stir slow, whether you use big ice, whether you use little ice.
+
+[40:30] In a shaker, it's so violent that basically all things equal
+
+[40:34] out and you get to your equilibrium point, if you do it enough, basically no matter what you do. So in stirring, I mean, in shaking, rather, where you have everyone really worried about their technique on shaking, we find that it doesn't make that much of a difference.
+
+[40:49] The most difference you're going to get, as long as you shake enough, the most difference you're going to get from shaking is actually in how you finish it, whether you strain it or not. you know, whether you push the gate down when you're pouring. These are kinds of things that make a big difference in the finished cocktail. In stirring, where you're not really adding a lot of texture, though, those things do matter, the size of the ice,
+
+[41:06] the how fast you stir, how slow you stir, because almost no one, in fact, no one I've ever
+
+[41:11] seen stirs a drink until it reaches its temperature plateau. And so, you know, this is spoiling a little bit what, you know, what's going to go in the blog post. So, uh, but, but hopefully, you know, the, the, this one chart that I'm going to put up where basically, you know, I pull 2 drinks at the same temperature, even though one was stirred for a minute and one was stirred for 30 seconds and they're basically identical from a dilution standpoint, will show that really, you know, that this is the fundamental rule of cocktails, is that, um, you know, there is
+
+[41:44] the chilling and dilution are linked, inextricably linked, and that there is no
+
+[41:50] chilling without dilution, and there is no dilution, without chilling. Now, a lot of people, they, you know, they say, but, you know, my ice comes from the from the fridge and for the freezer, rather. And we have a chart that's coming into the blog post about that as well. And it is true that there is some energy stored in an ice cube that when
+
+[42:14] you put an ice cube from the freezer into your drink, it shows your drink a little
+
+[42:21] bit before it starts melting. But that effect is not as big as you think, right? So if you were to stir 2 and you're going to see this chart for yourself, if you stir 2 drinks, one with ice cubes from the
+
+[42:35] freezer and one with ice cubes that have been left out, on the, you know, on the counter until they've reached up to 0 degrees Celsius,
+
+[42:42] you will see that the freezer ice cubes only get the drink like half a degree colder,
+
+[42:47] right? And I really don't know whether this is an artifact or not, some scientists will have to call in and talk to us about it, but, you know, Evan Clem and
+
+[42:55] Thomas, Eben Clem is the, you know, head of BR guest, beverage
+
+[43:01] program, and, you know, well-known bartender and used to do a lot of high-tech cocktails, still works with a lot of these
+
+[43:07] things. And Thomas was, you know, a bartender at Death and Co, great bartender. We all did this stirring thing at Tales of the Cocktail. And they noticed that when they used freezer ice, as opposed to not freezer ice, that their freezer ice actually took longer to chill than
+
+[43:21] a drink down than the one that was at 0 degrees. Um, and we replicated it. And in my, in the experiments that I ran with them and one that I did separately, I found that that was also the case. I don't feel comfortable enough saying that that's actually happening, that it actually, but it's interesting
+
+[43:38] that that, you know, that that even appears to be the case. I don't really know why that would be, except for the fact that maybe it takes longer to get the energy out from raising a temperature than it does just to melt it because melting is such a big wallop.
+
+[43:51] So, but in the chart you'll see in the blog post, if you go to it at www.cookingissues.com. Um, It, in fact, took longer to chill a drink that was with ice cubes from the freezer, and it didn't even make it to a final temperature that was that much lower.
+
+[44:05] So you don't really win by, um, you don't really win by using
+
+[44:09] ice it's in the freezer. The other interesting thing about freezer ice. People think that ice maintains a temperature for a long time below zero. It's not the case. We froze a cube and you'll see a picture of it, um, around a thermocouple, and then put it into a big ice bin, and we let it sit there, and it went from -20 Celsius, which is about -4 or so in
+
+[44:31] Fahrenheitville. And uh, it came all the way up to 0 in in under 20 minutes. So ice doesn't really maintain its below freezing temperatures that
+
+[44:43] long, because it's such a good conductor of heat. And you're not really winning from freezer ice. And the fundamental rule, I think, holds. Remember, there is no chilling, without dilution, and there is no dilution without chilling. And with that, I think we will sign off from cooking
+
+[45:02] issues, one more shout out to our sponsor. Hearst Ranch, cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Hello, you're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to
+
+[0:19] 1245, where we answer all of your cooking questions. You know, usually tech related questions, but we like any kind of questions. We're here live in the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Call in. I'm here today, of course, with cooking issues on Nastasia Lopez,
+
+[0:40] the Hammer, and, you know, she's here to keep me, keep me honest, I guess. Today's show is brought to you by Hopeful's Market. Hopeful's market is turning 80, and they've partnered with some of its favorite friends for 30 days of Twitter giveaways.
+
+[0:52] Follow at Whole Foods, Sync, or not, not
+
+[0:56] say, Whole Foods, NYC. I should read this beforehand, really. Follow at Whole Foods NYC and use the hashtag WFMNYCBDay. That's Whole Foods Market, New York City, B Day, WFMNYCB Day, to qualify and win prizes from Brooklyn Salsa Company. Rick's picks, make good pickles. Gus Soda, Housing Works, whose bookstore you should support on Lafayette Street in Manhattan, and the New York
+
+[1:24] Botanical Garden, an excellent place to visit, and more. Actually, those really are good places to get present. 30th birthday What did I say? 80. Oh, 80? 80, 30? Yeah, same. Same thing. 30th birthday. Whole Foods is not yet 80. Although more power to you, Whole Foods, may you make 80. Right? Anyway. Okay. So today's 1st question is a follow-up on last week's question from Ryan Santos. The 1st part of this question has to do with Nastasia. He was the person last week who asked for a date. I said, don't even try, don't bother. He still wants to know Nastasia's sign. It's a Taurus, not Sagittarius Taurus, correct? No, I think he was saying that's his sign. Oh, I don't know. Anyway, his question his question was, um, we have a new infusion technique. I'm not sure if we talked about it on the radio or not. Basically, what you do is you take a whipped cream maker, and that takes nitrous oxide chargers. You put, I usually use liquor, but you can use any liquid. You put something porous with flavor in it, herbs, like cilantro or Thai basil,
+
+[2:29] uh, regular basil, I guess, uh, things like ginger, things like cocoa nips, anything porous, basically. You put it in with the liquor, and you charge it with nitrous, and you, which is laughing gas. You know, most people, it turns out a lot of people who use these things use it to get high, right? They use the laughing guests. Yeah, sure you don't. anyway. Okay. Anyway, I tried it once in high school and I didn't actually like it. So I don't really use it to get high, but apparently there's a lot of people out there who don't even cook, who have the equipment to do this. Uh, so maybe they should try it with, uh, with liquor. Anyway, so you charge it with nitrous, you swirl it around for about a minute. And then when you release the pressure inside the canister, basically, uh, you know, you, the pressure
+
+[3:13] is forced all the uh, liquor into your, into the food that you're trying to get the flavor out of. And when you release it, all that stuff boils back out again and you have a really very, very quick infused liquor. You can see it on our blog, www.cookingissues.com. It's a good technique. Anyway, Ryan wants to know. Does this also work with solids? And the answer is, yes, I haven't tried it, but Alex and Aki had ideas in food. Go check their blog. I did it with mozzarella, and there's a bunch of other people out there now who are using this technique to infuse solids with
+
+[3:45] labor. Anyway, so that answers that question, right? Okay. Now let's go to some other email questions. Now, remember, we will answer your questions live if you call in at 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Okay. So Sam Lichtenstein calls in or Stein, what do you think? Viktenstein? Okay. Anyway, Sam wrote in and said, do you disagree or agree with the following statement made by a fellow by the name of Chris Anstadt, who's the author of a comic book called
+
+[4:19] webcomic called Akewood. And he has a cookbook. It's actually no longer available on Amazon. And Sam thinks it's a great cookbook. I have no idea because I've never read it. I haven't read any comic book cookbooks, actually. you? No? No? I'm willing to willing to read it. But anyway, so Chris Anstad, the author, says in the book, once you make a potato chewy, and he's referring to hash browns, how this should never happen to a hash
+
+[4:41] brown. Once you make a potato chewy, you're doing things to it so wrong that it would be best if you just gave that person the potato and let them take it home and try to make sense of it themselves.
+
+[4:51] Basically, if you make a hash brown that is chewy, you might as well just hand the dude a raw potato and let him go home and work with it because you've done a far worse thing to him.
+
+[4:59] And Sam wants to know if I agree or not. Well, I do agree that hash brown should not be not be chewy. Uh, but, um, potatoes can be chewy, uh, and and be good. And so the 1st thing I thought of was our stretchy potato ice cream, right? Because we make this ice cream and you read about it on our blog. I think I've mentioned it on the radio before, right? Where you blend cooked potatoes, steamed potatoes, into ice cream base, and you freeze it. And what you get is this chewy, stretchy potato ice
+
+[5:27] cream, and I think is quite good. But I'm assuming that that's not what Sam was wondering about. So I did some more research on the internet. And most people point to potatoes becoming chewy when you microwave them. And other people actually make chewy sweet potatoes by dehydrating them for dog treats. Apparently if you have a dog, they like dehydrated sweet potatoes, he has cut sweet potatoes
+
+[5:48] up and they turn almost into a rawhide chewy. So this led me to think, well, what is it about a microwave that is going to make
+
+[5:55] potatoes chewy? And this also leaves to the the answer that those people who are making hash browns chewy probably reheated the potatoes in the microwave,
+
+[6:04] right? And what's going on in a microwave is you are dehydrating the
+
+[6:09] potato relatively quickly along a fairly large surface because you're actually
+
+[6:14] heating, not just the outside of the potato, but a good region
+
+[6:18] of the inner portion as well. So you're very effectively dehydrating the potato in a microwave. So this, this chewiness is probably a dehydration phenomenon, right? Now, this led me to think a lot of interesting things. One, perhaps our stretchy potato ice cream is actually a dehydration
+
+[6:35] phenomenon because freezing is actually dehydrating. So what you're doing is you take a starch that's got a lot of liquid in it that you've cooked. potato starch. this is the ice cream I'm talking about. And you start freezing it. What happens? Ice crystals are forming in the ice cream and the water is being withdrawn from the starch complex as it's freezing up.
+
+[6:53] So maybe the reason the potato ice cream is stretchy and chewy is we're partially dehydrating the potato starch as it freezes. What do you think, Stasi good? Yeah, that's good. You like that theory? Could be totally wrong. But it's what I was thinking about. And then I was thinking about microwave dehydration in general. I mean, microwave is a great way to dehydrate some fresh herbs. It's also a really good way to make a small quantity of really crisp breadcrumbs. It works a whole lot better than putting bread in an oven and drying it out. You just put, you know, thin slices of bread in your microwave and you slowly microwave that what happens, you have to be able to get rid of the water. But what happens is, is that the water heats up and boils off and then
+
+[7:35] the, basically the microwaves focus on the area where there's water. So the whole thing dries out very, very, very evenly, and you get these incredibly crisp breadcrumbs or, you know, croutons, whatever, very quickly. It's a very good technique. The problem with it is. is that if any area of the bread starts to get warmer, because as soon as the water is gone,
+
+[7:57] basically, there's nothing to stop the bread from getting well above the, you know, the boiling point. And what happens is if any area starts turning brown. The brown areas, the burnt areas of the bread, absorb microwaves at a ferocious rate. And so they tend to grow very, very rapidly. So if you're not careful, your bread can scorch and you can get these brown marks. So you want to be careful with it. But if you slowly keep checking as your microwaving bread, it's a great way to make croutons. This, you know, this is also why if you go to a place that makes sandwiches, this used to happen at this taqueria I used to go
+
+[8:31] to, because I love Mexican sandwiches, tortas, and they're one of my favorite sandwiches. Anyway, they would nuke their bread to reheat the bread, and every once in a while they'd overnuke it, and you get those little interior pockets of hard stuff in the bread size. You what I'm talking about? Yeah, gross, right? Anyway. So these are all microwave dehydration things. But there's this blog. It's a vegan blog. I forget the name of it. something like Jugalindo or something like that. You can find it by searching microwave potato jists. But, you know, they seem to have a nice blog, even though they're vegans. They seem to have a nice bog. And they have a technique for basically making potato chips. Read a slice of potato chips and you put them in the microwave and you microwave them like 30, 40 seconds at a time, keep checking them to make sure that they haven't gone, that they haven't turned to Christmas, start turning brown, and they dehydrate into these potato chip like things.
+
+[9:16] They're not actually potato chips because they're not fried. And God only loves a fried potato chip because potato chips are something like
+
+[9:22] 30, 40, or even upwards, percent oil. The oil they're fried. And to me, I want my potato chip fried. I don't want a baked potato chip, I've never liked baked potato chips. I think they're an abomination, but it's an interesting phenomenon. This dehydrated potato chip and it actually works quite well. But if you underdehydrate them, they're very, very chewy. So, uh, Sam, if you want to experiment, very long way of saying, if you want to experiment
+
+[9:48] with um, with making chewy potatoes, I would recommend something like the microwave or a dehydrator and just partially dehydrate them until they become
+
+[9:57] chewy, but not crunchy. And, uh, like everything else, you know, um, you know, uh, what's his name? Chris Anstadt, the author of the cookbook, he didn't like chewy potatoes because they weren't what he expected. But a lot of times, you know, whether something is good or bad is just a matter of expectations. If you're expecting french fries and you get something chewy, well, that's awful. But if you want something chewy and you like the flavor of a potato, then there's nothing wrong with making chewy potatoes, right,
+
+[10:23] Stuff? Right, yeah, that's good. Right? Yeah. Okay. Oh, another note on microwave. Microwaves, we talked about last time because one of our listeners is going to college and basically can only have a microwave. Well, I told her, Stasi said that I was a jerk for suggesting this, but I told her to go out and get a cutting stone, made of silicon carbide, throw it in the microwave, and get it super
+
+[10:43] hot to use as a searing plate. Well, the good news is I tested this and it works fantastically. So go ahead and make your super high heat searing plates using silicon carbide cutting stones. Anyway, I think we have a collar. Caller, are you there? You on the air. This is Don. Hey, Don. Hey, how's it going? I was just asking. If you heard about this bacon vodka's been out a little bit, but I guess it's starting to gain ground. Who's making it? It's, I, it's spelled B-A-K-O-N, and it's a bacon and cheese vodka. Oh, infused. Yep. And I've had it in a bloody Mary, and it's terrific, but was wondering if you had any other ideas or recommendations
+
+[11:23] they use in it than something else. Well, I have not I have not tried it. I've had many bacon infused, uh, liquors, uh, specifically whiskeys that they make here. you in New York or no? Nope, nope. actually down in Marriott, Georgia. Hey, how you doing? So, in here in the city, there's was a number of bars doing bacon infused liquor, and they do it with a technique called fat
+
+[11:49] washing, and in fat washing, you mix the bacon fat, preferably a real smoky bacon fat, like Alan Benton's out of
+
+[11:56] Tennessee, makes a really fantastic smoky bacon. And, you know, you use the fat from that. That's what they used. And you mix the fat up with the liquor. And then you chill it and let it solidify, you take the fat off the top and you have bacon infused liquor. It's fantastic. I've never tried it with vodka. So I'm not sure exactly what I would, what I would use it for. I'll say this though. Lance, a guy named Lance, who's the master distiller over at hangar one, was making a series of meat and other interesting vodkas that were distilled, where he distilled them rather than
+
+[12:27] infuse them. And he kept on having a problem with the bacon flavor getting rancid as he was distilling
+
+[12:32] it. And he couldn't really do a good distilled one. At least he hadn't the last time I spoke to him, which, I don't know, Nastasia, was that like a year ago or something like that? No, 9 months, yeah. Yeah. So it makes sense that it's an infusion. It probably would be good in a Bloody Mary. I'm sad to say, I've not done too much experimenting with meat liqueurs myself with the exception of I did a beef and tomato distillate once that I thought it wasn't delicious in the sense
+
+[12:57] of would I go out and order that instead of a beer? No. You know what I mean? But, uh, it was it was good in the context that we were serving it as a small short shot next to a bunch of
+
+[13:06] grilled, uh, tuna uh, sinews. So it was it was good. But this is definitely something that if you like doing this sort of thing. You could definitely try to do yourself. Just save up your bacon fat or any other fat that has a lot of flavor. Uh, and then, you know, melt it, stir it in with your liquor, and then let it, uh, you know, put it in the freezer, let the fat come up to the top and solidify it. you could probably make your own. and really play around it. Yep, skirted, yeah. All right. Sorry, I couldn't give you any more recipe ideas. I just hadn't thought about it much. partially answer your question? No, well, yeah, I mean, I tried doing the, uh, just the
+
+[13:43] bacon, martini, and that, uh, of course, felt kind of flat, kind of like you were saying, drinking the, uh, the meat flavored one with the
+
+[13:50] tomato, all by itself, kind of didn't, you know, please the palate,
+
+[13:54] and that's kind of what I experienced. Did you put any salt in? You know, I didn't. That's a good idea. That might cut back some of that, that weird flavor. Yeah, I would put a little salt in because, you know, anytime you have something that started out either with salt or sugar in
+
+[14:09] it, and then that stuff all of a sudden goes away. You kind of miss it. I mean, think about when you eat just bacon fat by itself. It kind of tastes a little bit, a little bit flat, a little fabby, flabby, rather, monotonous fat sense, but you know what I mean, in a taste sense. Yeah, kind of bland. Right. So if you if you throw a couple pinches of salt in that and maybe even like a little hit of sugar, even though it's supposed to be a martini and not have a lot of sugar into it, I think you're going to brighten up that flavor quite a bit, you might bring it back to kind of where you
+
+[14:33] want it. All right, okay. Well, that was very helpful. So I'll give that a whirl. All right, thanks for calling in. You got it. Thank you. All right, bye. Okay. We have another call, right? Oh, another caller? All right. hi caller. on the air. Hi, Dave, it's Julio, Priscilla Morgan's friend. Hey, good to talk to you. Thanks for calling in. How are you? doing well, Dor. Sure, sure. finally got your number. I was at the restaurant this weekend and picked up on the cards. Oh nice, nice. Talking about the French culinary restaurant, I assume, a great restaurant. You talking about the French culinary restaurant? No, no, no. Roberta's? Oh, Roberta's, okay, so there's 2 things, by the way, just for a second. Like, I work at the French Culinary Institute. We have a great restaurant Lake Hull, which is like one of the best deals in Manhattan. And then I do the radio show here out of Roberta's in Brooklyn, which is a fantastic restaurant. does a lot of really great work, grows a lot of their own product, uses really high quality meats, including the meats from
+
+[15:25] heritage foods, et cetera, et cetera. So we're talking about Roberta's restaurant. You had a good meal, I assume? Fantastic. I actually went in early in the day and went back late that night. Oh, nice. Nice. Double hitting. Great. Double hitting, double hitting. But I thought of you, and I thought, you know, I may not be calling the right person, but I'd been on a diet for about 6
+
+[15:46] months, and I'm trying to figure out what desserts I can have that have no sugar. No, are you on a, I mean, is this a, not a calorie diet? This is a diet that you can't have sugar or is it just a calorie issue? Calorie. Okay. Well, 1st of all, you know, he is not a large man. He does not really need to diet, so you shouldn't worry about it so much. That's the 1st thing. And uh, the, the, the 2nd thing is, um, sugar doesn't actually have uh, that many, that many calories. It's not normally going to be the depends on what you're eating, but a lot of times it's the fat and other things in
+
+[16:21] the item that are going to basically bulk up the caloric content of it. You could do a lot of reduced, again, nutrition, not mine necessarily my specialty. I'm more of a taste and a tech guy. But you can focus on, obviously, fruit-based desserts have a lot of
+
+[16:36] bulk, and some fruits have quite a bit of sugar, but some don't, and just a little bit of sugar, you know, brightens them up,
+
+[16:42] things, things like berries. You know, we've done a lot of stuff that's fairly low in calorie and
+
+[16:47] high in flavor, um, but they use a lot of technology. Like, we made something that looks and eats, like, pumpkin pie, but it's basically peach puree, but, you know, it's like not really achievable in a normal kind of restaurant. It requires liquid nitrogen and a whole bunch of other, uh, you know, and a centrifuge and a whole bunch of other, uh, fans fancy stuff. But I mean, especially now at this time of year. You know, if you're going to focus on, I would focus on things that are satisfying but contain a lot of air with a little bit of sugar and fat.
+
+[17:15] For instance, whipped cream is not that bad for you because it's primarily air. Do you know what I mean? So if you're, if you're doing, if you're like a, uh, um, kind of person who would go for a bowl of fruit and uh, and cream, you know, if you use like a really nice whipped cream, you can get a real luxurious feel and it's still not going to
+
+[17:31] be uh, that bad on the calories. So, I always focus on eating smaller quantities of stuff that's truly delicious rather than,
+
+[17:38] you know, not being satisfied, eating an even larger quantity of things that just don't taste as
+
+[17:43] good. You know what I mean? But you know, I walked past a box of meringues the other day. And I thought maybe Dave has an answer of how to make fat free meringues. Oh, well, meringues are often. I mean, real meringue is often fat, you know, fat free if it's made... Not sugar, sorry. Oh,
+
+[17:59] sugar, yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, meringues, I mean, you feel them. They're so light. There's not actually that that much sugar. Think about it. So if you cook, right, you're taking, let's say you take a dozen egg whites and you whip them in your kitchen aid and you put maybe a cup of sugar in, right? Now you filled your entire KitchenAid bowl with, uh, you know, with meringue, and the whole thing only contains a cup of sugar, which doesn't have that many that many calories. So on a pound per pound basis, meringue is extremely high in sugar. But on a volume basis, and a lot of times we tend to eat based on volume of how something looks, it doesn't actually have that much in it.
+
+[18:36] Now, the sugar is there, not just as a sweetener, as a structural component. You can move to things that have the bulking capabilities of sugar, but without the calories, but then you're moving into kind
+
+[18:49] of, um, what's the word I'm looking for, fake sweeteners. You know what I mean? And so you can you can do that. So if you want, I mean, like, I tend not to focus on those kinds of problems because, like, you know, where, where, I use a lot of ingredients that, uh, people, some people are horrified by, things like
+
+[19:05] Xanthangum, carrogen and gum, uh, methyl cellar, things like this, right? But my whole shtick is that I use them to try and make food taste better or be better, not to get
+
+[19:17] around, um, not to get around nutritional or economic problems. And so the upshot of that is I very rarely get to focus on problems that are primarily related to nutrition or
+
+[19:30] to, um, or to things like calorie accounting because it goes counter to my mandate at the French culinary, which is to focus
+
+[19:37] on, uh, on quality 1st and foremost. Right, right. Now, you know, like I said, there are many, there are many things that have the structural. So what typically what someone will do is and sometimes they do it for diabetics. Although there they use basically sugars that have the same functional and sweetness
+
+[19:56] of sugar, but just don't have the, they don't have, you know, problems with the insulin. But what they tend to do is they add a bulking agent that has no calories, and then they add a high intensity sweetener that has no calories. So they have to use kind of a two-part problem. Uh, you know, and there's people that have uh, invented, they invented this stuff called lie
+
+[20:13] tests, which I actually don't remember how it's made, but it's a sugar that uh, has no sweetness and no
+
+[20:19] calories, whips into a meringue, just like sugar. And I was experimenting with it to make savory marshmallows,
+
+[20:25] right? But you could also use it in conjunction with a high intensity sweetener to make a meringue that had kind of 0 calories other than
+
+[20:34] the other than the egg white protein. Right, right. Anyway, I hope this... Would honey be a solution, putting honey in the? No, honey has, like, honey is just as many calories, you know, and also the problem with honey is honey is very hydroscopic. It pulls water in, so it's very, very hard to make confections with 100% honey that don't weep or suck water out of the air, which is
+
+[20:57] what, you know, certain confections use honey and they need honey, like taroni is characteristically has a lot of honey in it. But other confections, like when you add honey. Like, if you're making chocolate, you can't really use honey as a sweetener because it's going to pull water and then ruin the chocolate. I see, I see. But I will I will research this more, and the next time I see you, I will have some decent answers.
+
+[21:18] All right. I'll call next week. All right. Thanks for calling. I'll talk to you soon. All right, Dave. All right, bye-bye. See you soon. Bye, bye. We have another color style? All right, your color, you were on the air. Hi, I, um, have been reading a lot lately about ethnic foods and the trending popularity,
+
+[21:35] uh, specific ethnic foods like Indian food, growing in popularity, and I've had Indian food and restaurants and really liked it, but I've always been reluctant to prepare stuff like that at home.
+
+[21:44] So I'm wondering if you have any advice or tips on specific Indian dishes that might be a good
+
+[21:52] starter, American dish to prepare. Okay, so you've never, you're, what kind of Indian dishes do you like? Um, I mean, pretty much every Indian dish that I've ever tried. I've enjoyed. I like stuff like butter chicken or, um, doll, things like that. Right. Okay, so I would, I would uh, shy away from any of the dishes that for their completion require specific, uh, pieces of equipment. So for instance, certain Indian dishes require the use of a special oven called a tandor that's basically shaped like a vase and
+
+[22:26] very high heat. And so things like non, things like uh, 10, you know, like typical like tandoori chicken or chicken tikka masala, things like
+
+[22:34] that, to really get the flavor as as just how you would want it in a restaurant requires a a tandor, right? Not that you can't imitate those at home, but, you know, to really, if you really want to be satisfied and make it 100%, those are going to be difficult. So I would not do those first. Secondly, I would go get a good Indian cookbook, if you don't, if you don't have one because the best way to, to, 1st is to eat some like you've done. But then to really immerse yourself in how a specific cooking system works. So if you grow up like I did, basically, you know, where in the house to go to was some Americanized form of kind of basic Mediterranean, Italian style cooking,
+
+[23:11] right? Which that's my upbringing, is you know what to do when you put a pan on, you
+
+[23:16] know, you're going to put in some oil, some onions are going to go in there, you're going to sauté them, then at the end, you're going to put in your garlic, whatever else. You know how it flows, right? So what you need to do is read a couple cookbooks, Indian cookbooks that just get a feeling for the flow of how Indian cooking works. So you're going to start here similarly with like, you know, with probably ghee, which is a melted butter and then, you know, things like uh, uh, onions and then, you know,
+
+[23:37] maybe, uh, you know, ginger or whatever spicy things. Then you're going to probably sauté your spices because that's a characteristic part of Indian cooking is to sauté the spices, bring out the aroma, then start adding your other things, right? So like I would read a couple cookbooks, a good one. It's vegetarian, but Lord Krishna's cuisine, I forget, was the one that I bought a number of years ago. I'm sure it's been surpassed. I'm sure it's dated, but I would get like a fairly authoritative Indian cookbook, one that has enough recipes for you to try, but focus on ones that are more about the mentality of Indian
+
+[24:08] cooking because I think that what you really want to do is immerse yourself in the mentality.
+
+[24:12] Uh, and, and, you know, I, I, I do a lot of uh, curries. They're also really good when vegetarian friends come over because there's so many good Indian vegetarian dishes out
+
+[24:21] there. You know, it's one of, it's one of the cuisines that is based on uh, on vegetarian dishes. And so, you know, and actually, if you ever, uh, you know, again, I'm not, you know, supporting being a vegan, but if you have a vegan friends come over, a lot of times, uh, you know, if you substitute, if you use dishes, like, for instance, there's a dish that I really love to make
+
+[24:40] called uh, Navritan curry, right? And I do my own version of it, it's Americanized, but basically, it's a sauce where you start by sauteing
+
+[24:49] onions, and then you put your spices, like it's got coriander, it's got cumin, it's got ginger, it's got some hot pepper in it, regular pepper, you know, a host of other things, but then you also saute cashew nuts in
+
+[25:04] it. And then you, after you do that, you add some tomato paste, coconut milk, pineapple, you blend the whole
+
+[25:11] Magilla, and then you can toss it with any kind of steamed vegetable you want, and it's delicious. Navritan curry. delicious, delicious curry. Uh, and if you, if you use the coconut milk and you use olive oil to sauté instead of butter, you have a vegan dish. And so you can, if you have a vegan coming
+
+[25:25] over and, you know, it's a really good way to make it uh, and have, um, have something that's vegan that you also like. Another, another, you know, trick with Indian food is really sourcing the ingredients. I, you know, I'd really focus on sourcing some ingredients that are high quality, um, and that, you know, allow you to achieve the authentic taste. So when you're getting a rice, you're going to want to get, you know, one of the actual rice that they would use in a particular dish. I mean, often you're going to use a basmati or something like that. And, you know, do it with a little with, you know, throw some spices in when you make it. But again, the key to anything is to 1st taste, which you've done. And so you know whether you've hit the target or not. right? I mean, I've never been to India proper. It's one of the places on Earth. I'm really dying, dying to go. I've never been, but first, you know, I know what American Indian food tastes like. and I know what London Indian food tastes like, but I don't know what Indian Indian food tastes like. But anyway, so you have a target and that's good. Now, figure out the fundamentals of, you know, what it's like for someone to step into a kitchen in India, what they're thinking, what is going to go in the
+
+[26:29] pot. And then the recipe itself isn't so important. It's more understanding the flow of how they cook and how they're going to be doing it. Does that answer your question, I hope? Yes, it does actually. And with respect to something you said about the different flavors and the spice mixtures and things that go into Indian, from what I understand, there are many different recipes that can make up
+
+[26:49] a garam masala, for example, or like a curry powder. So just looking at the shelf, you know, in the grocery store, it appears that there's a bunch of different products that you can buy that kind of would help along that way. So I'm excited to start trying some of those. Right. And you know, it's funny, you know, you try a bunch of different ones. They're all very different. Eventually, if you really get into it, you're going to want to make your own spice mixtures because they're just going to be a lot fresher and you can tailor them to your to your exact needs. Think about it this way. It's, you know, in the US, we think about, you know, we're amazed at the kind of variation in something like a
+
+[27:22] Garamasa, things like that. But, you know, but if you go to North Carolina, right? The difference of like 20 miles in North Carolina is enough to cause a
+
+[27:31] fistfight over what you're going to put in your barbecue sauce. Okay? You know what I mean? And so, you know, when you think about it that way, and you need to go to
+
+[27:39] India, which is huge and has so many people in it. You know, it's, it's, it's an extremely extremely varied and interesting cuisine. You could spend a whole lifetime doing nothing but Indian food and it would repay your efforts. You know what I mean? It's like a huge, it's a huge and interesting a journey that you're embarking on. So really regional. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, very much so, very much. And again, I only know the surface of it just because I haven't had a chance to travel over there yet, but I wish you well. And I'm sure you're going to have a lot of fun. Thanks so much. appreciate your advice. Thank you. Okay. So, uh, I have another email question coming in. take a break. We're taking a break. Okay, we'll take a break and we'll come back with more questions on cooking issues, radio. How you feel, bro? You feeling good? Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel man? I call your name. people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, jam! Sure, getting down. Look again. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Let's take them up, Fred. We gotta take you home. All right. I wanna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's the one. You gotta take it high.
+
+[29:17] Brother! Yeah. Now I want everybody. Let red blow up my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go into that within us now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Get James Horn on me. Fred, get the checkers higher. Take us higher. Fred! Ben! Hello, and welcome back to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, here with Nastasia Lopez, the Hammer. And we're here to answer your cooking questions for a couple more minutes at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So Jesse emailed in and asked, do you guys have any advice on slicing mint without turning it
+
+[30:13] black? As soft as I try. It still ends up turning black. Interesting question Jesse. So what's happening in mint or basil or anything like this is that as you're cutting it, you're breaking the cells. As you break the cells, the enzymes, the cells rupture, and the enzymes within the cells can mix with certain compounds inside of the mint, and they form
+
+[30:35] brown, brown colors. And there's very little you can do to prevent that, with the
+
+[30:43] exception of it's not how soft you cut the, it's not how soft you cut the mint, it's going
+
+[30:48] to cause it. It's how sharp your knife is. So if you use an extremely sharp knife, right? You're going to rupture as few cells as possible. You want to use a very thin, very sharp knife. Um, If you and slice it and you're going to get the minimum amount of uh, blackening of the cells, right? If you even if you cut softly with a dull knife, you're just mashing it, right? You also don't want to just whack it around on the board. You know, that's why people, they roll their leaves up and then they slice not just gently, but, you know, with very sharp knife. Another technique you can use is you can blanch the mint briefly in
+
+[31:24] boiling water. And what that's going to do is just kill the enzymes. Harold McGee, the author of On Food and Cooking, had a 2nd book called The Curious Cook. Unfortunately, it's not in print anymore. You can get it on Bookfinder. But the Curious Cook has a long chapter basically on pesto where he deals with just this kind of problem, how to make a pesto, which is the same problem as mint.
+
+[31:47] It, basil, but they're in the same family and it has the same problem. how to keep it bright in a pesto, and it's really interesting, an interesting chapter read because it really shows what we do in general
+
+[31:58] here, in cooking the way we approach it, which is to break it down into a series of variables, and then try to figure out what's going on with each one of the variables. And the entire book, The Curious Cook, is about that. It's really, it's a shame. not in print right now because it's a very good companion piece to on food and cooking. Whereas on food and cooking is more of an encyclopedic reference with some lore about, you know, cooking. The curious cook is more how to become like Harold McGee, right?
+
+[32:25] How to think like he does, like, or, you know, for that matter, a similar way to think how we do when we're cooking, which is to break
+
+[32:32] things into a series of variables and try to understand what's going on. So if you can get a copy of the Curious Cook and read it, it would be, it's useful for everyone in a way of figuring out a method of thinking.
+
+[32:44] So, uh, blanching the mint has the problem that you, um, you know, you've changed the flavor. It's no longer fresh. You could cut it under alcohol, and that's gonna not, but it's in alcohol, then. I mean, that's what I would do, cut it under alcohol. But, uh, it's, uh, you know, that's usually only useful in alcoholic beverages. So it's a difficult problem. McGee experimented with using things like ascorbic acid, and that doesn't really, or scorbic acid is an antioxidant. It stops many things from turning brown. He didn't get it to have that much of an effect in basil, probably because it didn't get to where it needed to go fast enough before the browning happened. I bet if he vacuum infused ascorbic acid into the mint leaves, he would have been able to get a decent result, but alas, he did not have a vacuum machine or even an ISI whipper to check it out when he was writing the book, but that might be another
+
+[33:32] way to go. But if you're not, if it doesn't matter that it's not hyper, hyper fresh. Quick Blanch will help. Otherwise, just use an extremely sharp knife and be ginger about
+
+[33:42] it. I'm sorry I didn't have any sort of magic bullet for you, Jesse, but that's,
+
+[33:45] you know, you chose a tough problem. So, uh, okay. So onto a separate and weird phenomenon. Um, an interesting one, I think. It called the Impembe Effect, in Pemba, in Pemba. what do you think? Impemba, Impemba effect. And what that is is, and it's just interesting because it just shows how you can be wrong in so many ways. It's been known for a long time that if you take and you heat water up. versus water that's cold and you put them in the freezer that it's possible for the hot water to freeze first, right? That seems counterintuitive. Yes, it starts. Right. In fact, it seems so counterintuitive that, you know, you would say things like, well, that's
+
+[34:28] absurd or ridiculous or impossible, or that someone who says that must have a cogluse, right? Because on a simple, on a simple level, you know, physics, you think, well, look, the hot water, when you put it in the freezer, has to chill down to
+
+[34:41] 0, right, before it freezes, and the cold water starts closer to 0, so it's going to get there
+
+[34:46] for it's going to freeze first, right? It just seems physically impossible that anything else would happen, and yet it does. And it just goes to show that this simple thing, it seems impossible, but it's true, was observed by a schoolboy
+
+[35:00] in, what country was he in? It was a country in Africa in the 60s, and he observed this phenomenon as a child and was laughed out of the school. And then later, you know, kept on basically saying, look, it's true, and turns out he's right, and now they've named the effect after him. His name was Mr. Mimba, right? Um, Pemba. Anyway. So, uh, Anywho, so the thing is, is how can this possibly be true? And it took decades, decades for scientists to actually figure out what the heck was going on in
+
+[35:29] this in this situation? And the new scientists back in March of this year published, or talked reference to paper, that was written a 30 page paper written by a guy that had spent 10 years researching this problem, and he thinks
+
+[35:45] he's, you know, finally come up with the answer. And the answer is this. And it leads to an interesting phenomenon. The phenomenon is super cooling. So super cooling, a liquid means that you cool it down below its freezing point before it starts to
+
+[35:57] freeze. And the reason this happens is because ice, in order to form, it needs to have a nucleation site for a crystal to start. It's very hard for crystals to start forming in water to become ice. So they need these things called nucleation sites. So when you super cool something, you super cool it down to a point where the ice can
+
+[36:13] nucleate and then bam, the whole thing rises back up in temperature to freezing and starts freezing, starts freezing up. That's how ice forming works. So it turns out that by heating a sample, you actually alter the nucleation sites such that they can't super cool as much before they freeze up. So in fact, the massive ice does freeze faster if it's
+
+[36:34] been, can freeze faster if it's been, been heated. But it led me to think then of the concept of super cooling, right? So they're super cooling and there's superheating. Water is pretty interesting. If you need to super cool it below 0 degrees to get it to start freezing up, right? You can also superheat it, uh, above 100 degrees, uh, because
+
+[36:53] it's the same way it's very hard for ice crystals to form. It's also hard for bubbles to form, right? So bubbles need a nucleation site. That's why if you have a super clean glassware, like hyperanalytically clean glassware, like you use, like chromic and sulfuric acid, you melt all of the organic crap out of the inside of a glass.
+
+[37:09] Don't do that. But if you did that, then you filled it with champagne, you get no bubbles, because there's no place for the bubbles to form. So in super heating, what you do is you take something that has no nucleation sites, like you've boiled it once, right? You stick it in a microwave, which heats it all without a lot of convection currents because it's heating it around instead of heating it from the bottom. And then you pull it out. It's well above 100 degrees. You throw sugar in it and it instantly boils and splashes boiling water in your face and you get horribly scalded and have to go to the hospital. This is a known phenomenon. Anyway, back to microwaves, right? Anyway. So super cooling can also be used, right? And so there's a chef Seiji Yamamoto in Japan who has an apparatus to do super cool and uses extremely clean glassware, I guess, and he puts water or water-based liquids
+
+[37:52] in and he chills them well below zero. And then as you agitate them, right? You just, boom, you agitate them, you create little bubbles. Those little bubbles become nucleation sites, and ice starts to form. So he has these really cool demos and I believe it's on YouTube where you take super cool liquid and he pours it as he pours it, it turns to ice forms a slushie, which is pretty cool. Um, and uh, just the Impemba effect got me thinking about all this. Unfortunately, it's not possible to freeze an entire block of ice solid. In order to freeze an entire block, like a thing of water, solid using super cooling, you would have to super cool it down to -80
+
+[38:24] Celsius, and that's just not possible. You can't get really, you know, you're probably at best only going to get a couple, you know, 10, 10, 20 best degrees, not even below zero,
+
+[38:34] uh, Celsius before it starts to nucleate. So you can, but you can free something like a quarter, a 3rd,
+
+[38:42] not probably not a 3rd, probably a quarter of the water in the slush, which is pretty cool. But my favorite way to do this is actually a multiple effect is when you put soda in a freezer, and you pull it out just before she freezes, and then you uncap it, and then it all of a sudden turns to ice, right? And I like that because I like super cold, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the reason this happens is twofold. One, carbon dioxide is dissolved in the liquid, and that actually lowers the temperature at which it wants to freeze, right? It's a freezing point depression. When you uncap it, all of a sudden, carbon dioxide leaves, there's less carbon dioxide, the freezing point's less depressed. So now all of a sudden, the liquid's more super cool than it was before. Secondly, those little bubbles provide nucleation sites, crapload of them, like all at once. I almost cursed on air. I apologize. Forms a crap load of these bubbles, all at once. And so the entire thing basically just turns to a
+
+[39:33] massive flaky ice crystal. So I'm still trying to figure out a good way to use this in the in the kitchen. You got anything, nostachi? You think that there's any kind of use for that? I don't know, Dave. No. No? She's probably right, which brings me kind of the, she's, you know, Nastasia's always right about, not
+
+[39:49] really always right about these things because there's many things like I say, just negative. Right. Like she, you know, in case you meet her, right? You know, like I say, there's many things she doesn't like for no apparent reason, like French fries or, you know, for some reason, she doesn't like French fries, doesn't like potato chips, except salt and vinegar,
+
+[40:04] bizarre, bizarre. So you can't really trust around these things, but in this case, I think she's right. Just because, although super cooling is really, really cool. I mean, well, sorry, nifty, right? Super cool is really nifty, it's probably going to end up being just a gimmick. And on the topic of just a gimmick. I'll mention one last thing before we leave. And this is a cool gimmicks. If any of you out there have liquid nitrogen and a vacuum machine. Um, which, you know, you should have both, frankly. You know what I mean? Uh, And this was told me by Johnny Azini, Pastri Chevet Jean George, who, in turn, learned it from Chris Young, who's working with Nathan Mirvold on the miracle book that's coming out at the end of the year. If you stick liquid nitrogen into a vacuum machine and then you close the vacuum machine and let it run for several minutes, all of a sudden ice starts forming on the top of the liquid
+
+[40:53] nitrogen. Okay? Then as soon as you release it, the vacuum, the ice goes away. So you can never touch or get to the ice, right? Ever. Uh, and uh, and so Johnny was like, was wondering about this and I did a bunch of research and uh, what's happening and it looks really cool. It's like this like frosty snow ice forming on the top of the liquid nitrogen. What you're actually doing is forming nitrogen ice. And it turns out that liquid nitrogen, which, you know, clocks in around -200 Celsius in that
+
+[41:22] range minus 190 something Celsius at atmospheric pressure. Solid nitrogen isn't that much colder than liquid nitrogen, right? And so what happens is, is you put the, um, liquid nitrogen, you let the container come up to or come down to temperature, so you're not boiling for that reason too much. Put it in the vacuum machine, and you suck a vacuum on it. What you're doing is evaporating a crapload of nitrogen off the top of the vessel and you're actually evaporatively cooling the liquid nitrogen down that extra couple of degrees Celsius and forming solid nitrogen snow on the top of, and it looks really cool and it's really, you know, whatever.
+
+[41:59] Anyway. and you can YouTube it if you want to see it. But you're forming solid nitrogen snow, but yet you can never touch it. Another pain in the butt in kitchen technology. anyway. So that was this week's cooking issues. Join us again next week at from 12 to 1245 and another shout out to Whole Foods, 30th birthday, not their 80th birthday. Happy birthday, Whole Foods. Bye, girl. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you did. Hello, you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[0:21] Cooking issues, a show where you call in with your cooking issues, and we hope to solve them. Call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:34] This week's cooking issues is brought to you by the barter house. The barter house is a proud supporter of the
+
+[0:39] Heritage Radio Network. The barter house works with family vineyards and small bottlers from around the world to bring only the finest and most flavorful wines to market.
+
+[0:46] To learn more about Barterhouse, please visit them on the web at www.thebarterhouse.com or call them at 917-463-3076.
+
+[0:57] That's 917-463-3076. That's not our number. That's the barterhouse's number. And today we're actually sampling one of their one of their wines. Uh, this wine is from uh, from Uruguay. Yeah. And it's a mixture of, uh, uh, what's it mixture of? Tempernillo and Tanat, or I don't know, it's pronounced Tanat. I think it's Tanat with a T. Anyway, T-A-N-N-A-T. We'll get to that in a minute. But the name of the wine, I swear to God, the name of the wine is booza. Booza. Like, it's the best name for a wine ever. I could see a cult following, building around a wine called Booza. I mean, it's just genius. I have never actually, I don't think, had a wine from Uruguay before, but it's quite nice. And, um, and this tonight's a very interesting variety because several years ago, a scientist out of England, um, did a study trying to figure out what it is about red wines that actually makes them uh,
+
+[1:55] healthy, uh, from cardiovascular standpoint, right? And, uh, he settled on the, on this class of chemicals called pro cyanidins that are in red wine. And he did a bunch of studies where he basically studied the, um, a cardiovascular health of different people in different regions and discovered that people that drank a lot of wines, uh, that were high in uh,
+
+[2:15] pro seanidins basically got less heart disease. It's his findings, right? And it turns out that the wine with the most, the variety with the most pro cyanidins in it is to not. And so I tend to believe that all health and food stuff is horse hockey and will eventually be proven
+
+[2:31] wrong. But if you believe that sort of thing, uh, that, uh, you know, that you're
+
+[2:35] going to get super healthy from drinking a lot of red wine, uh, then, I mean, um, obviously there are some cardiovascular benefits to
+
+[2:42] drinking uh, moderate amounts of alcohol, but anyway, whether or not his particular analysis is
+
+[2:47] correct. Uh, to not as made a splash over the past couple of years as perhaps being an extraordinarily cardiovascular health cardiovascularly healthy wine. But I think it's quite enjoyable. What do you think? It's really good. like it, yeah. Anyway, the barter house. and boozer. I love it. I can't get enough of it. I really can't. I don't know how much this costs, but I might actually buy it just so I can, you know, I tend to refer to all liquorous booze. And my wife, Jen, she hates you. She's like, it sounds so coarse. She doesn't sound like that at all, by the way. It sounds so coarse. You call it booze. I'm like I can't help it. Anyway, booze. We have a collar. We have a collar? All right. Let's take our call. Hello, caller. on the air. Hey Dave, it's Julio. Hey, Julio. Oh my god, I feel terrible. I meant to do the research this morning and I got all all tied up. You didn't do your homework? I'm a I feel it's interesting that I didn't do my homework because I actually am going back to class
+
+[3:43] later today. I'm retaking organic chemistry at NYU just to brush up. And so this is a prefigurement of what it's like to not do your homework and to be caught
+
+[3:53] red-handed not doing your homework. But, you know, I was trying to think more about it. Specifically, you were you were interested in meringues that have a lower sugar content,
+
+[4:08] correct? Now, do you want to be able to make them at home or do you just want to be able to purchase them? Well, you know, I have a sweet tooth. So I appreciate anything sweet that I can make at home that I don't gain weight on. Well, remember, what I said before, the good thing about meringues is they're actually very, very large percentage air. So they're actually not that caloric on a volume basis. And so they're actually very, very good snacks to have around if you have an intense sweet tooth, but you want to eat, you want to eat something that's going to satisfy that sweet tooth, but you don't want to get a lot of calories because they provide a lot of sweet sensation for the amount of calories they
+
+[4:49] had. I remember I said last week, and this is what I was going to investigate more, is seeing whether or not we could do a high intensity sweetener mixed with a high intensity sweetener mixed
+
+[4:59] with, like a bulking agent, like a, you know, like a non-nutritive sweetener that has the properties of sugar that you want in a
+
+[5:07] meringue. I'm hesitant to do it, though, just because it goes against kind of what
+
+[5:12] I what I spend my time thinking about, just, uh, you know, trying to always increase things from a quality standpoint, not necessarily to try and get
+
+[5:20] around, um, different issues. But, but, but this time, I swear, Nastasia, the hammer is usually the hammer for other people, but Nastasia, you're going to force me early in the
+
+[5:33] week rather than wait until the last minute. And even if you, even if you don't have a chance to, uh,
+
+[5:39] because actually, I won't be, we won't be here live next week because uh, I'd be teaching uh, low temperature sous vide cooking at the school. But I, I, on a stack of Bibles, promise to get this information
+
+[5:52] and and either the next time we go live, if you call in or or else, I will, I will get this information to you somehow. I promise. Here's your penalty for not doing the homework. What's a good what's a good recipe for kale? I, you know, I live near the farmer's market on Union Square and there's beautiful kale out now. Right. I always, like I say, I always, I've had kale. raw in raw food places and I don't really like it raw. I would recommend cooking it like you, like you would basically cook any green, which is just, you know, I
+
+[6:27] actually like kale when it's kind of overcooked. I always chop it. Um, I don't bother removing the large, uh, uh, I moved just the end of the stem, but I don't take the whole vein out, but I know some people that take the vein out of the center of the
+
+[6:40] kale and then trap it. I usually saute, I would usually saute, onion, and then at the last
+
+[6:48] minute throw in the garlic and then throw in the kale, which will provide its own moisture as it cooks down, and then you can decide whether you want to add any sweetener, definitely hits some acid after it's
+
+[6:59] done cooking down. I would add a little acid at the end of brighten it up and, you know, make sure you add enough salt. What do you think, nastasia? You cook greens like that, right? How do you do it? With oil and garlic and salt and cook it down. Like I just said. Yeah, good for paying attention. Yeah, I remember once in Italy having something very similar to kale and then prepared it with pine nuts and raisins. Does that sound familiar? Not necessarily familiar, but it sounds delicious. I mean, you know, I like any kind of cooked green, although you'll be upset with typically when I do it. I cook a lot of meat into it as well and mix beans. I mean, I grew up eating basically every week my mom would make an escarole dish where she would take escarole and we would, we would do the onions and then garlic and then, and then basically, hot sausage and bacon and cook it
+
+[7:47] down and then we would, then we would add the escarole, which is a really good bitter green. And that would counteract with the, you know, with the bacon and then we would add some acidity. I would usually add it in the form of mustard, although you could use vinegar, lemon, and then we would finish it off actually with beans with, you know, with white beans. It's super hardy, greens and beans and bacon. I mean, you can't really go wrong. Uh, you know, as soon as in fact, as soon as the weather starts getting a little bit colder, I'm going to go ahead and go make that because that's, you know,
+
+[8:15] childhood, childhood memories. Right, right. Comfort, comfort. All right, well, thanks. All right. Well thanks for calling in. will get the answer. Okay, I'll call you not next week. the following week and good luck at your class next week. Thank you so much. All right, thanks, Dave. Bye. All right. Let's take our 1st email question then, uh, because, uh, I believe. Well, we're still drinking the booza. We'll let you know whether or not our heart feels any better when we're done finishing the blues, whether the pro cyanidens and the tenet are actually helping us or not. But we have a question from Gabe in New York City. Any advice for making chocolate at home? Well, Gabe, you asked the right people. There is a website called chocolatealchemy.com, which caters to making chocolate at home. And basically, what everyone uses is a small, when you're making chocolate, one of the steps is the grinding of the chocolate,
+
+[9:10] right? There's a bunch of different steps when you're making chocolate, assuming you already have beans, cocoa, you know, beans that are roasted. So you want to break those down, 1st do a grind, and then basically they get ground to a finer and finer dimension. The whole point of grinding down chocolate is so that you don't feel the graininess of the chocolate after it's ground. You want to get the particle size very, very small down to like, you know, 20 microns or so. And what that does at the same time that you grind it, you're doing a couple things. One, you're reducing the particle size of both the chocolate and the sugar that you've added, you're also making sure that the cocoa butter is totally covering all the particles so that it's nice and
+
+[9:48] smooth and you don't have any cocoa particles that aren't coated with butter. Okay? Now, uh, that said, basically chocolate, you can't make chocolate just out of uh, cocoa beans out of nibs because uh,
+
+[10:01] chocolate, bar chocolate has more cocoa butter in it, the fat from cocoa, than is in the whole
+
+[10:08] beans. So you're going to need to get a hold of some cocoa butter, right? Usually you get the deodorized cocoa butter because most cocoa butter you
+
+[10:16] get, apparently I'm told, wasn't good cocoa butter to begin with, so they have to deodorize it. But anyway, that's what I use at the school. You get cocoa butter. And you get cocoa nibs. Now there's 2 pieces of equipment you need. You need basically a champion juicer, right? Because champion juicer also makes things like peanut butter and that's the way we use it when we're doing chocolate. So a champion juicer has a bunch of little teeth and it just grinds up the nibs. So you throw the nibs into the champion juicer and just like you're juicing carrots or making peanut butter, it grinds it to a paste. And you keep grinding it with the champion until it warms up and kind of liquefies.
+
+[10:50] It's a king hell mess, but it's, you know, it doesn't take very long. And then you put melted cocoa butter and the ground
+
+[10:57] of chocolate that you have, along with sugar, usually a little bit of
+
+[11:01] powdered, less a thin, which is an emulsifier, very small amount, like, you know, I think less than half a percent or something like that, even less.
+
+[11:09] And usually some vanilla. You want to make sure that you don't use any, uh, you can't do use things like honey because it'll soak in water. Water is the enemy of chocolate. So you want to make sure there's no chocolate in it at all. I mean, sorry, no water in it at all. So, you know, no honey, no um, nothing with water, not vanilla extract, you want to use straight beans or even vanilla
+
+[11:29] sugar, if you have it, if you have it that you like. And you want to put it in this machine called a santha, which is basically a very small version of a chocolate. I don't know how you pronounce it, melanger, like a chocolate mixer. It's basically 2 little stone wheels that roll on a round stone surface and just grind chocolate. If you look up chocolate Melangre, Melangre, Melangre. Ah, who knows? Anyway, you look at, it's basically 2 rocks that rotate around on another rock, and that over the course of a long time, makes the particles finer and finer and finer and finer and
+
+[11:59] finer, and eventually you get chocolate. Now, and I believe we might have a recipe for ketchup flavored chocolate on our website. But just, you know what? Don't start with that. Start with regular chocolate. Go to chocolate alchemy and look up some of their some of their things. Now, normally when you're making chocolate, you grind until the particle size is right, and you
+
+[12:17] also, you're also like flashing off volatiles in this, so you want to make sure that you are releasing just the amount of volatiles that you like.
+
+[12:25] Now, a chocolate maker can do this by running it in this, uh, in this breakdown machine, Melange, whatever it's called, Santa, whatever. And this one, by the way, was not made for chocolate. It's made for grinding up lentils. They're Indian. Anyway, so you grind it for a little while with the lid off. And that's going to release volatiles and allow you to kind of get where you want. And it's also going to let you flash off some extra water. And then you're going to want to cap it. And in order to get the texture right, right? In other words, very, very smooth, you're going to have to run it for two, 3 days. Now, um, uh, that might affect the, I'm sure it will affect the flavor of your chocolate, but the guys at the school, our pastry
+
+[13:04] department, the school now does this as part of their demonstration for the pastry department. And they've gotten some pretty good stuff that tempers the tempers fairly
+
+[13:12] well and it's a lot of fun to play around with. You're looking at an initial investment, roughly $500 for a
+
+[13:18] santha and a champion juicer, but from there on in, you could basically make whatever you want.
+
+[13:24] Now, there's, it's also an interesting time for chocolate because there's a lot of companies that have started making some smaller batch chocolates around.
+
+[13:32] So, you know, uh, for many years now, Jacques Therese has made, you know, the dean of our pastry studies has made it his own chocolate 1st
+
+[13:38] in um, in Brooklyn and Dumbo and now uh, at his larger facility in Manhattan. You have Mas Brothers makes chocolate in Brooklyn, and there's a new company actually just starting out called Cacao Pieto that we visited Nastasia and I visited. When was that? Friday. Friday. And they're, you know, associated with the Razor and Shiny Knife people here in
+
+[13:59] Brooklyn and they're actually starting a new line. They bought the, uh, uh, the remains of the Scharfenburger, the old Scharfenburger chocolate line. And they're going to be making some new chocolate. What's interesting about what they're doing is that basically the name Prieto is the family name of the one of the
+
+[14:16] the founders of the company, Dan Preston, and his family's done cacao plantation sugar plantation for a long
+
+[14:23] time in the Dominican Republic. And so they're actually going to have complete vertical integration. They can play with breeding, selective breeding, they can play with, um, they can play with different fermentation techniques. Um, you know, and they basically can control it from soup to nuts, which is pretty interesting. It's very rare. And so they're going to launch in January. So we'll see kind of what that complete control and vertical integration can
+
+[14:45] bring, because they're going to bring, they're going to do, I think, mainly liqueurs and chocolate bar chocolate. So we'll see how that pans out, but having visited their setup, It's a very, very good setup, and they're going to be using some kind of new equipment and custom built equipment. Dan actually used to build some equipment for chocolate makers. In fact, he built some parts for the Mast Brothers line. So anyway, so that should be that should be interesting. But, you know, back to selecting your beans. I mean, the main problem is, uh, uh, you know, when you're making your own
+
+[15:14] chocolate, is uh, crap in crap out. You know what I mean? And so you need to get a hold of some good quality nibs to do your work. And, um, the final product that you make in chocolate is very dependent and finicky depending on every little aspect of what you do can, uh, can affect it. So it's a field well worth investigation and study and Gabe, I wish you luck in your exploits. Anyway, with that, I think we go to our 1st commercial break, please remember to call in your questions at 718-497-2128 at 718-497-2128 cooking issues. So much bone, brother. How you feeling, man? I call your name. people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. You're getting down. Look at him! We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[16:31] All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it, yeah. Gotta take it high.
+
+[16:41] Brother? Now I want everybody. Black bread, blow my 2 courses. And then I want to wave you, that's going through that we did it now. All right. right I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. Yo, James, horn on, man. Fred, can you take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! Yeah! Welcome back to cooking issues. Call in your cooking questions to 718-497-2128 at
+
+[17:23] 718-497-2128 coming to you live for another, I don't know, what, half hour or so. All right, let's go to some email questions. So, Brian writes in from New Zealand and says he just made a batch of lemon cello and added his sugar syrup to the infused alcohol
+
+[17:42] cold, so it stayed clear. And then basically, I mean, go into this. Here's the question. The question is, when you make lemon cello, lemon cellos, basically, you soak lemon peel or zest in alcohol, sometimes high proof alcohol, sometimes not, until the flavor has gone in, then afterwards, you add sugar,
+
+[18:01] you strain it, add sugar, right? Basic lemon cello. I don't actually drink it, so I don't know a lot from firsthand experience, but that's what lemon cello is. Many of the recipes on the internet tell you that if you add
+
+[18:12] sugar to sugar, you know, your sugar syrup, sugar solution to your lemon cello and the sugar solution is still warm or hot, that it will turn cloudy. Whereas if you add it when it's cold, it will not. And then the question is, I don't know if that's personally true, but everyone says it. So I'm sure that it must have some truth. And then the question is, is there any, is there any taste difference? Is there going to be any taste difference? Is it going to have any impact on texture, aroma flavor, et cetera? That's that's Brian's question. Now, since I don't make lemon cello. I haven't had firsthand experience, but it's very interesting to me that
+
+[18:48] Limoncello would turn cloudy. Um, when you add warm stuff as opposed to when you add cold stuff. Now, I did some preliminary research in scientific literature this morning on this
+
+[19:00] problem, and I was not able to find anything, unfortunate. I guess it hasn't really been studied. Usually when liquor turns cloudy. The reason liquor turns cloudy, when you dilute it, is because there are oils that are soluble in
+
+[19:12] high proof alcohol, but when the proof has been diluted, right? When the alcohol level goes down, all of a sudden those oils are no longer soluble and
+
+[19:21] they precipitate out of solution into oil droplets and they become cloudy, right? This is known as the ouzo effect. So if you take Uzo, Sambuca, any one of these kind of usually fennel-based things that are high in oils and you dilute them
+
+[19:34] or, you know, what's it called? Absinthe, uh, it will it will go white. Cloudy. Now, also, we have this that happened a lot when I do distillation work, I do distillation at low temperature. We bring a lot of oils over, and those oils often will cloud our beverages when we dilute
+
+[19:52] them or when we chill them. Usually it's when you chill something that it goes cloudy, because all of a sudden, chilling it reduces the solubility of the oil and also diluting it reduces the solubility of the
+
+[20:03] oil. Right? Now, here's my question, and you'll have to write back and answer this. My guess would be that this is the only thing I could think of that would make it cloudy is that oils would suddenly become not soluble. Now, if you were to add, uh, if you were to add, um, sugar syrup when everything is cold. Let's say it was cold and clear and you add it. My guess is it would go cloudy right away, but maybe the oil droplets you form are big enough that they settle out. I've heard people say that when it becomes cloudy like that and stays cloudy that it's bitter. That would mean that the oil stay in. So if what's actually happening is you add the cold syrup and it forms oil droplets right away that are large enough that the oil droplets can
+
+[20:43] coalesce and then you can get them off of the product and have them go clear again.
+
+[20:48] Because I've had that happen with liquor too. I've had liquor that had so much oil went so cloudy on me that after a period of a couple of
+
+[20:55] days, it settles out and it's clear because the oil separates out. And the lemon oil would have a bitterness. So basically, my theory, and this is completely not backed up, because I've never done it, is that if you, if this phenomenon is true, perhaps what's happening, when you add, um, warm, uh, when you add warm syrup, right, it doesn't actually cloud as much as it would if you added cold syrup, but that those droplets are smaller and thus more stable,
+
+[21:21] there's, therefore, there'd be more lemon oil in it, and therefore, it might be more bitter, which is what people report on the internet. Whereas if it's cold, the drop was formed are larger and then might coalesce and get out of the beverage as it sits for several days before you finish bottling it. But I don't know, and I've never run the test, and I would welcome anyone to either call in who's done this and talk to me about it or
+
+[21:44] or else write into the blog or to the forums because it's an interesting subject. Usually the exact opposite happens and cold things cloud up or when you dilute them, more than warm ones do. So it's definitely an interesting question. I wish I had more of a finished answer. Um, okay. Derek from San Francisco writes in, and this might end up being a long one. This might go over the, over the break, but he read it, Anastasia. like, oh, geez. I've read a number of articles and recipes, usually General So's chicken or Sal, whatever. What do you think? sour so? I thought it was... Okay, well, I'm going to defer to nostosh on this one. about the velveting technique for cooking meat, but none is given a reasonable scientific explanation for how it works.
+
+[22:26] How does velveting improve meats texture? Which of the typical ingredients, cornstarch, eggs, egg white, wine, et cetera, play, significant
+
+[22:34] roll, thanks in advance, Derek. Okay. Well, I don't cook this way, but I did do a lot of research on this one. It's very interesting. So velveting is a procedure whereby you usually take small chunks of meat. You marinate them for a time in an egg white. The main thing, it's always there is egg white, and then usually also cornstarch. And sometimes wine. Salt is usually, if always present, some people add a pinch of baking soda as well. And some people do a premarination in baking soda before they add it to the velvetting mixture. the egg white mixture. And the claim is that it produces a more tender result. If you look, uh, basically after you do your marination in that egg white, you know, gunk, you then
+
+[23:20] uh, take it and um, either drag it through hot oil to set the egg white on the outside or else through boiling water to set the egg white on the outside and then proceed to stir fry the recipe
+
+[23:30] as normal, right? A couple of things are always true in these recipes. One, the pieces are small, which means that marination effect is going to be able to penetrate quickly through the whole thing. Okay? That's the primary, the primary thing that's true. Now, why does this work? What the hell's going on? If you look at some of the videos on the web, people say that the egg white is sealing in the juices, when you see her, I have extreme
+
+[23:53] doubts as to this, I mean, one of Harold McGee's, you know, big initial proofs in on food and cooking, the original one is that, you know, searing does not, in fact, seal in the
+
+[24:06] juices because you can see a whole crap load of sizzle in the pan and the sizzle is coming from evaporating
+
+[24:11] water, and the water is coming from, you guessed it, the meat. Now, having seen pictures of these chicken pieces, stir frying that have been velveted, I can tell you that there is a
+
+[24:22] lot, there's a crap ton of moisture escaping from those things. Now, the egg white coating could protect somewhat that you would more preferentially get the water out of the egg white 1st before it makes it to the chicken or whatever, thereby,
+
+[24:36] you know, producing less, um, less moisture loss inside of the meat. Uh, just like a batter would. In which case, yes, it is protecting the meat from losing its moisture. However, there are a couple of other things that are going on as well that are very interesting. If you add baking soda. Baking soda is alkaline and baking soda can actually tenderize meat. I'll talk more about baking soda in a minute in general, alkaline conditions in general. But, um, egg white is also alkaline. In fact, what's interesting is, is that if you go to a Chinese market here in the US, eggs are often not refrigerated. Eggs, as they age in a non-refrigerated environment, don't necessarily become more dangerous, but they do become more alkaline. So, uh, an egg an egg white that starts off in the mid-sevens, pH wise. By the time it's kind of, you know, age and become older, can have a pH upwards of in the nines. very alkaline, right? And so perhaps a soak in a very alkaline egg white would have tenderizing
+
+[25:37] effect similar to the effect that a baking soda rub can
+
+[25:41] have because when you lower the pH, you're basically increasing the rate of kind of protein and collagen
+
+[25:48] breakdown. So this could be an additional tenderizing effect. That would be offset by any sort of wine that you're adding. So any sort of wine would have acidity would tend to counteract any tenderizing effect from the baking soda. So I don't know how those 2 things or for the baking soda or from the egg whites. So I don't know how those 2 things would necessarily interact. The other key component in this is the salt. So whenever you add salt to a meat, you are basically increasing its water holding capacity.
+
+[26:15] So even though you think of salt, something that dehydrates something over time, when you are adding salt to meat, you're changing the amount of water
+
+[26:24] that protein can hold onto. So you're actually increasing the amount of water that holds onto. So there's a bunch of possible effects here. And I don't know where, because again, I searched it, you know, before, like I searched scientific literature for lemon cello, try to search the scientific literature for
+
+[26:39] velveting. There's nothing there. So I searched on bicarbonate solutions and
+
+[26:45] tenderization, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence on bicarbonate solutions, sodium
+
+[26:50] bicarbonate as baking soda, by the way. So there's a lot of anecdotal evidence on that, and people who have done tests at marination and bicarbonate solutions causes tenderized meat via 2 different
+
+[26:59] mechanisms, actually. One straight tenderization, uh, presumably because of the alkaline nature and also
+
+[27:05] the uh, ionic, you know, character that it's changing the water holding capacity of the proteins. But also, when baking soda is heated, it
+
+[27:12] decomposes forms carbon dioxide gas. And so it makes a porous structure in the meat and actually creates a porosity in the meat that can be interpreted as tenderness.
+
+[27:20] Those are 2 different, 2 different things that could be going on. Egg white, perhaps, is having some of a similar effect in terms of tenderizing because it can be
+
+[27:28] alkaline. Salt would tend to tenderise. I don't know where the wine would fit in, and thirdly, just straight enrobing in a protein mixture of egg white would help to protect the chicken from overcooking.
+
+[27:43] A 3rd thing that we would be happening. I mean, a 4th or 5th. Who knows how many I've done? Another thing that might be happening is alkaline things brown faster. So, I mean, you have something that's alkaline. In fact, there's people who do studies on adding a little bit in Holland, they did it in
+
+[27:58] Netherlands. They did a study where they added baking soda to ground meat. And they found that it browned a lot faster because alkaline conditions, increased browning rates, right? So for instance, you take a pretzel. Pretzels are boiled in either baking soda or lye, alkaline conditions before they're baked. And that's why they have that really dark, dark color and also that characteristic pretzel taste. If you cook a pretzel without boiling it in alkaline conditions. It doesn't taste like a pretzel. It tastes like, you know, like a bagel or something that's hard, you know? So you definitely need that alkaline condition to get that really rapid browning. Um, I tend to hate it when it's applied to meat. We ran a bunch of tests when, uh, you know, when Harold McGee comes into his lecture at the school, we do a bunch of tests where we cook baking, uh, we put baking soda into ground meat. And, yeah, it brown fast, but it tasted god awful. I mean terrible. Did you taste that one, nastasia? Terrible. Uh, very small amounts of it added to, um, added to
+
+[28:51] onions can radically change the, the browning characteristics of onions, make them brown very quickly. And, you know, made them actually lose more water too, is very, is very interesting. So these alkaline shifts in alkaline alkalinity really have a huge effect on proteins and how they brown. Similarly, when you're making noodles, a lot of, you know, Asian noodle recipes will use something called cansway, which is basically an
+
+[29:14] alkaline, additive, and it makes the gluten more stretchy and also makes the noodles yellow because you're basically shifting the functionality of the gluten proteins by shifting the pH towards more alkaline conditions.
+
+[29:30] Um, So, uh, long story long and long story
+
+[29:34] confusing, is that, uh, you know, the Alkaline uh, egg white might be making it brown faster, it might also be, um, it might as well be tenderizing. If it makes it brown faster, then you think it's done faster, meaning you're not going to overcook it as much. So that could be another reason why perhaps the meat is more tender when it's cooked this way. So it's a very complicated subject. I don't think it's been adequately studied. I don't I haven't done any side-by-side taste test, so it's hard for me to say for certain what's going on, but these are
+
+[30:04] my best and worst guesses at what's happening. Anyway, so that brings us to our 2nd break and call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking issues. I want to get on the good foot.
+
+[30:32] Going down for the field, let all hang out. I wear a tiny beef, my nose, but it's a button. Go, Doc, drink me, and let it all hang out there. Well, something, but knows what it's about. Where people can find it,
+
+[30:53] take a hand, black. And then hear the music, it ain't my band. They're dancing on the good. I got to beat on the good boot. I got to do it on the paper. Do it with a good foot. There's a long, I hip, and these, I feel back, all, together, all, strike, and they party. You know the dance and get good. They don't do it. But
+
+[31:25] the winter. A whole lot of builds in my money spin. That's on my back.
+
+[31:33] Welcome back to cooking issues on the Heritage radio network. Dave Arnold and Nastasia Lopez here. Today's cooking issues brought to you by the Barter House, and their fine wine from Uruguay Booza. Booza, with temporio and tanak grapes, which we're enjoying right now. We're boozing. We're boozing on booza. Okay, so, uh, we have another. Oh, by the way, you still have a couple minutes to call in your questions, and I know you want
+
+[32:00] to, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And a little programming note next week, we won't be coming to you live from Tuesday.
+
+[32:10] We're going to try and pre-record. We put on the blog when we're going to do it in case you want to call in. But next week, I'll be teaching uh, sous vide and low temperature cooking with nils at the French Culinary Institute.
+
+[32:21] Uh, It's actually, I like that, I like the class a lot. It's a good class. We're already full for all of you, sous vide nuts, so you'll have to sign up for the next, the next one, but it's an interesting class. We do, you know, a 1000000000 different tastings and it's it's pretty hardcore, but it's a lot of fun. And I actually learned something every time I teach it because we get to we get to, you know, taste together with a group of 17, you know, people and the people who take the class are usually pretty
+
+[32:47] hardcore. So I end up always learning a lot, even myself. Anyway, um, okay. Um, let me see, what is this? Sorry. Okay. We have a Swedish listener who, you know, can't call in. I guess the time difference is too great for him. And he says that, uh, I assume it to him. Let me see. Hans, yes. Uh, uh, he is heard it's possible to make frozen slushies, um, with a soda siphon. He's interested specifically in the possibility of a frozen mojito. Do you have any experience with that? He says he's tried it, but he hasn't gotten good results. They were nice and bubbly, but no freezing. Okay. Um, and he says he hasn't tried it with a soda siphon yet just with a cream whipper. Okay, cream whipper, by the way, we're talking about is a whipped cream maker. that you charge with nitrous oxide, and a siphon is basically a soda siphon is one that's meant to operate to
+
+[33:38] make to make seltzer. Now, um, I don't think it should make a difference whether you use nitrous oxide or CO2 because both have relatively the same weight and similar solubilities in water. So I don't think it's going to make a difference which gas you use. So the question is, do the mechanisms of the 2 are they different? Now, this harks back to something we talked about last week, actually, which is the idea of superfreezing. We talked a little bit about superfreezing. Was it last week, Nastasia, superfreezing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's why Hans wrote in the question. Here are some issues. One, I don't think you can do it with a mojito because mojito has the crushed up mint in it, and so that's going to provide a nucleation site. So you're not going to get very much super cooling. The way that this slushy thing, if it works, which I have never done it before, if it works, here's how it works. You put a drink into a clean vessel. It's clean, right? The drink itself is clean. It's clear. It doesn't have any cloudiness in it, right? So lime juice might be a problem. I'm not sure, right? You might want to, you might want to keep the lime juice separate, you know, chill your lime juice down and then take the frozen drink with everything but the lime juice and
+
+[34:43] and slush it because the lime juice, I think, is going to cause a problem. You want to chill it below the temperature at which it freezes, right? And then you want to initiate ice nucleation so that it forms crystals. It's a technique called superfreezing. And you can look it up on YouTube and you can see, super, super, super cooling, rather. You can look up super cooling and freezing. And this works. So one, your lime juice is going to be a problem. Put your lime juice last after it's basically been slushed out. Um, two, the advantage of using the siphon is that when you are, um, when you charge it with gas, the gas is actually lowering the freezing point of
+
+[35:21] your of your mixture, okay? So it allows you to super cool it even more because what happens is when you when you spray it out, you're doing 2 things. One, you're introducing a bunch of nucleation sites, it's going to bubble, and the bubble provides ice nucleation sites, and you're going to get your crystal growth. You're also, as this stuff foams out of it, you are, you are releasing gas, and as it releases gas, the freezing point goes up and it should crystallize faster.
+
+[35:47] So you win 2 times. So here's what I would do. I'm not guaranteed this is going to work because I haven't tried it. But I would mix your drink with water. And by the way, you're going to want assuming you want the same sort of dilution that a daiquiri has, the post that we're going to hopefully put up in a day or 2 on cooking issues, part 2 of
+
+[36:03] our of our mega cocktail post. Part one went up on Thursday, I think. Part 2 is going to go up probably tomorrow. Um, You know, it turns out that shaking drinks are quite dilute, more dilute than you'd think, more in the range of like 16% alcohol in that range.
+
+[36:18] So you're going to want to dilute it down to finish, right? Except for, you know, hold, you know, keep in mind that the lime juice is going to dilute it more. Omit the lime juice, just water, sugar syrup, and booze, right? Any salt if you want, charge it with nitrous, put it in your freezer, right? That mixture should freeze somewhere in the vicinity of like minus eight, 10 minus, no, like
+
+[36:47] minus 10, somewhere in that, somewhere in Celsius. I have to look it up exactly. But somewhere in that region. So you should super cool it down. Your freezer should be fine. You're gonna have to experiment with it a little bit. Then immediately turn your siphon upside, you know, your whipped cream thing upside down,
+
+[37:02] you know, like out. You want to get rid of as much gas as possible and also, um, you know, and also get it into your cup as fast as possible. And with any luck, you will be able to get some foaming. Another thing you could do is just unscrew the lid and let it deerate like
+
+[37:19] that, and then you should be able to get some, pour it out into a juice, stir in your lime juice, done. Done. If it works, if it works. And there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that she's going to work. Okay. So, uh, on the subject of cocktails. I did an interesting study over the weekend. Nastasia in preface for the post that we're working on. Shaking and stir drinks, and we've mentioned this a bunch of times, but shaking and stir drinks are different, right? So one of the differences between a shake and drink and a stir drink is stir drinks
+
+[37:52] are typically less diluted than shaking drinks, right? Typically a stir drink is going to have a much lower amount of water added to it than a shake and
+
+[37:59] drink is. Two, shaken drinks are aerated more because they're shaken, right? And back in the day, I used to think it was, you know, malarkey that all that aeration would stay. I thought it was very transient effect, but through several blind tastes that we've done. I've been proven wrong, as is often the case. And shaking drinks are, in fact, different on a textural basis from stir drinks as well as being more
+
+[38:23] diluted. Now, the question is then, if you're having a party. How are you going to make shaking drinks for everyone? If you want to do, if you want to pre-dilute the
+
+[38:32] batch? For instance, you're going to run out of ice. You don't feel like having your ice around. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't want to shake live because it's a pain in the ass, et cetera. I mean, but et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And in the school, we tested a couple of different things. One, we just served a chilled, shaken drink, right? We had a chilled drink that was diluted the same amount as a shake and drink. And that, you know, didn't taste like a shake and drink. It could be tasted that side by side with a shake and drink. And also one that we'd put in a blender. The blender didn't work because the bubbles were too big. It was weird. And then we also chilled one with liquid nitrogen. And liquid nitrogen, it turns out, as it cools, with the advantage here is you can use warm drink as well. As it cools, it adds little bubbles because the nitrogen's boiling off, and that turns out to be very close to shake and drink. I realize that most of you out there don't have liquid nitrogen. So here's the good news. I ran another test over the weekend where we took the chill drink. We took a chill drink straight out of the freezer. We diluted it as much as you would for a shake and drink and
+
+[39:32] tune into our website in a couple days to find out what that answer is because it's too complicated to explain over
+
+[39:37] the radio. It wouldn't make any damn sense anyway. But looking up on our blog, here's the good news. Dilute the drink, put it in your freezer. Don't let it freeze, put it in your freezer, and then just put it into a cocktail shaker without ice, and just shake it before you pour it out. That's it. And you can get most of the stuff back. So I ran a test over the weekend where we took a chilled, diluted cocktail, a fresh, shaken cocktail, and then a chilled, diluted cocktail that we shook just in a quart
+
+[40:07] container, and a chilled, uh, a chilled diluted cocktail that I shook in a core container with a bunch of, uh, I have a bunch of strainers, uh, hawthorn, uh, strainers. Um, you know, the ones with the spring, the cocktail strainers with the spring. I ripped all the springs off and threw them into the core container. This is a trick I learned from Audrey Saunders, who was testing this to aerate her egg white drinks, you know, a number of years ago. anyway. So, and I did one with one with springs in a core container and just shook the heck out of them for a couple of seconds and then poured them out.
+
+[40:35] And blind, the shaken, fresh shaken drink was very similar to the ones that were shaken, just in a core container, straight from the freezer, and ones that were shaken in a core container with
+
+[40:47] springs straight from the freezer. Uh, shake and drink was a little bit different, uh, and uh, was preferred by some people, but the other 2 are very, very close approximation. So if you pre-dilute your drinks, store them in core containers in the freezer, you know, take
+
+[41:02] a core container is what you get from like takeout joint, you know, we have them everywhere at the school, but it's what you
+
+[41:07] takeout joint. Store your drinks in a core container, you know, make sure there's a lot of air left in
+
+[41:11] it, and then as they're ready, just pull them out of your freezer, Shacka, Shacka, Shacka, Shacka, Shacka, Shacka. What drink did you make and how long did you keep it in your freezer for before you took it out? I kept it in there for like an hour and it's probably a little color. I was trying to make it exactly as cold as a shake and drink. If I let it sit there longer, it would have gotten a little bit colder. Um, I was making, um, what was I making? I was making daiquiris, straight daiquiris. And the, um, and I used the same exact mix. So I pre-mixed everything, held some aside and shook one live. And then the other ones I shook. Um, you know, I I pre-shook. I actually pre-shook them traditionally. and then let them sit for, you know, for a while to get rid of all the texture from shaking and then froze them down. The reason I did that was I wanted to make sure that they were diluted exactly the same amount as the fresh, fresh, frozen guy. What was interesting is some people preferred the one that was in the freezer.
+
+[42:08] They prefer to, because it had, it was more intense, because it didn't have the air bubbles in, and the one with the springs was actually the most aerated, and
+
+[42:18] therefore some people liked it the least because the least intense. My mom, oh, it wasn't Dakiri. Sorry, it was whiskey sours. My mom, who doesn't like whiskey, was that happened to me at my house at the time, she liked that one best because it tasted the least like whiskey.
+
+[42:32] Or actually, no, she liked the one without the springs, which wasn't the most airy because everyone said that that one tasted sweeter, which is
+
+[42:39] bizarre. Just because to show how complicated the cocktail is. My stepfather, whose booze hound, wine nut, an amazing palate. I've seen him pick wines blind out of, you know, I mean, you'll walk up to him with a wine and a tinfoil
+
+[42:51] wrapper and, you know, pour it and he'll be like, yeah, that's blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, you can't argue with the man's palate. You can argue with a lot about Gerard, but not his palate. So, you know, he actually preferred the one that was allowed to sit in the freezer because he, I guess it was denser. He preferred it more. And he preferred the one that had the most air in it, at least. We have a caller. Oh, the last under the wire. Caller comes under the wire. Call her on the air. Hi, this is Garrett. I'm calling because I have a question about carbonating cocktails.
+
+[43:25] Okay. I've seen the systems they
+
+[43:29] have like the Perlini system, but I wanted to know just how to do it with a regular soda siphon, and
+
+[43:35] uh, if you've had any experience with carbonating cocktails, and uh, yeah, just your ideas about it. I have had a lot of experience carbonating with cocktails. Um, I tend to carbonate cocktails with uh, £20 CO2 tanks and um, and uh, ball lock fittings, which is like, you know, so old soda fittings that home brewers use. And for a list of the stuff, it doesn't cost that much to get that system, actually, that's what I've been. been doing that for a long, long time. There's on our forums, you can look up a list for that. Now, carbonating with a siphon. Here's the problem with it. I've done I've done it. I wouldn't use a soda siphon. I use a cream whipper for it. They're also ISI as introducing a new system called the soda stream,
+
+[44:19] not soda stream. Oh, geez. That's a different company, but so does something. Sparkle, soda, Sparkle, sparkle, shimmer or something. Anyway. But here's what I would do. The main problem with any of these systems is you can't get rid of the airspace above the drink. Air is the enemy of carbonation. So when you have that headspace with air and you're shaking it, it does 2 things. It decreases the places where CO2 can make it into your
+
+[44:47] drink and also when you uncap it, they're not that soluble and they form bubbles and they
+
+[44:51] foam out. So if you have, if you can afford it, you're going to need to use 2 chargers to charge it, right? One, you want to do like a quick shakeout with it, and then take your whipper. is why I say use a whipper, right? Not the soda siphon, unless you have a soda siphon. If you have a soda siphon, turn it upside down when you're doing this. So to shake it a couple of times, you're trying to get a little bit of CO2 in and it's going to get rid of the nucleation sites in
+
+[45:15] your, in your, in your drink and also get rid of the air. And then immediately vent out all of that gas. And so what's happening now is you're getting rid of the air and the
+
+[45:23] oxygen and all the nasty stuff that's the enemy of carbonation and you're getting rid of some of the nucleation sites that are in your drink. Then you want to add your 2nd make sure it's ice cold. In fact, if you have a couple of ice cubes in it, it's even better because you want it really, really cold. Then you put your 2nd charger in, and then you shake it for carbonation, right? Then you let it sit for a couple of minutes to settle out. Then you slowly vent it, open it, and pour out the drink and you can get good results. I would start with things that carbonate well. I tend not to like carbonated rum drinks that I carbonate. For some reason, that's personal preference. I know some people that like a carbonated daiquiri. I tend not to like things carbonated like Manhattans, but I don't like the really bitters when they're carbonated. Um, but, you know, I carbonate a lot of gin drinks, a lot of gin
+
+[46:06] drinks, uh, carbonate, um, you know, carbonate. I like bubbles in almost everything. You know what I mean? But just a couple of drinks that I don't like. The other issue with the siphon is that you only get these 7 gram, 7 or 8 gram increments of CO2. And really you want to fine tune the amount of bubbles that you're putting into a drink. So people don't notice it as much in cocktails because they're not used to tasting for specific flavors in cocktails as much as they are in wine. But if you carbonate wine, wine is extremely sensitive to the amount of CO2 that you put into it, such that the difference
+
+[46:43] between, um, I use pressure, because I'm using a tank. So the difference in using like 30, 35 PSI versus 40 PSI is the difference between delicious and you blast
+
+[46:54] the fruit out of it and accentuate the oak too much, right? So that's my other gripe with using the cartridges is that they don't have the fine control over the amount of bubbles present that you would get if you had a tank.
+
+[47:06] The tank system's really easy, actually. Like, you know, I have, like I say, I'm a little bit nutty. I have it in my house, but, you know, it's not actually that nutty. Like, you know, I live in the city in a tiny apartment with 2 kids. You know what I mean? Like on the on the 3rd floor. But you should definitely experiment. You can definitely experiment using a cream whipper or a siphon to start.
+
+[47:25] How would you vent the gas with a siphon because you would vent out the liquid, wouldn't you? Turn it upside down. Turn it upside down. Oh, and then the gas would come out without the liquid coming out if you turn upside down? Exactly. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, but how much the system that you have, how much is that, how much of a problem money wise? It's not. And here's here's the thing, right? I'm gonna offend my good friends at EC, but there's a company out of Guntersville,
+
+[47:54] Alabama called Mark Powers, and they sell soda
+
+[47:59] equipment, and the stuff there is so cheap. You can get like a £20 CO2 tank empty for like $90 and a regulator for like
+
+[48:07] $30. The hosing's like ¢13 a foot, and the connectors, you know, they're like, you can get the whole thing, including the carbonator caps, which you have to order from a
+
+[48:16] homebrew supply. And then you use soda bottles, you get the whole thing for, you know, under like 130, 150 in that range. You go to your, I don't know where you live, but you go to your local welding supply shop and then you just, unfortunately, this like kills people. You hand in your new tank, and they hand you like an old beat up tank, but it's full of CO2. like an, uh, like an $18 problem, but one tank of CO2, uh, will do 2 to 400 gallons of drink. Okay? Now, one thing you have to remember. Everything has to be cold when you're doing it. And if you want to be consistent, you want it to always be the same amount of cold. And here's the other thing that a lot of people don't think about. Water, alcohol is actually, CO2 is more soluble in alcohol than water. So in order to get the same effect of bubbles in an alcohol drink, you need to add more CO2 than you would in water, okay? So the higher the alcohol content, the more you need to add. So I happen to like carbonated Negronis, right? And so carbonated Negroni is high proof, so you need to add a lot more pressure to Negroni than you would to a wine, right? That's why sake, typically if you're going to carbonate sake, you carbonate sake at a higher alcohol, higher pressure, then you would carbonate like a white wine, which typically has a lower alcohol content.
+
+[49:30] So you have to scale the pressure to the alcohol content of your drink. So the higher the proof, the higher the pressure, basically. Bingo, for the same flavor. Yeah. For the same effect of carbonation on your tongue, yeah. All right, well, thank you. All right. Well, good luck. you're entering one of the most rewarding things in the world, bubbles. Bubbles, bubbles, bubbles. All right, thanks for calling in, and that was cooking issues for this week. We won't be live next week, but we will figure something out for you. And thanks to Barterhouse and Booza. Fishes, fish and vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Hello, you're listening to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues coming to you today with Nastasia Lopez, the cooking issues hammer. We are not live today. We are pre-recording this because Tuesday, when we're normally broadcasting. I will be teaching sous vide, and low temperature cooking class at the French Culinary Institute, a fine class. This one's full, unfortunately, so you can't sign up for it anymore. But you could sign up for the next one. So you can't call in live, but I'm still going to give you the number, so you can write it down for your records. The number to call in to the studio here is 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:51] That's 718-497-2128. The number to call into cooking issues, a show where we answer all of your cooking issues. Okay. Now, a couple of, you know, notes here, you might hear some music in the background, and that's because
+
+[1:05] today, Sunday is the Bushwick block party, right? Bushwick, Brooklyn, for those of you that don't, you know, know is kind of like, what, hipsters paradise? What do you say? History of Paradise? Yeah. So the whole block was shut down on Roberta's Pizza, which hosts the heritage radio network is hosting this block party. And so it's kind of pandemonium outside of the studio right now. By the way, the studio, for those of you that don't know, the studio here is actually, I think, like a container, some sort of something. I swear to God, that's been dropped into the middle of Brooklyn, and they put a garden on top of it, and there's kind of a window where we can, you know, view Brooklyn out of this window.
+
+[1:39] Is that pretty much accurate? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway. Okay. Uh, come right? Yeah. A couple other announcements before we get to the email questions that have come in. There's a lot of events coming up with us in the next month or so. So I'm just going to list some of them. Some of them are going to require us to pre-record again. Some aren't. I think the next thing that's going to come up is Starchefs, Starchefs, you go to Starchefs.com. Nils and I are doing a bunch of events there. We have a mixology demonstration and we're doing some couple of cocktails. That's coming up the week of September 20th. So you might want to stop by and see us there. Then Heritage Radio is having a big fundraising barbecue. It's called the heritage radio party, the heritage party, and it's on Saturday, September 25th. It's here at Roberta's, in Brooklyn. It's $100 a crack to attend $100 per person. We will be making some drinks, probably with liquid nitrogen. What else? We decided what we're going to, to be maker's mark. Right? Have we decided what kind of fruit we're going to use? I thought it was peaches. Well, it depends on what. okay, here's what's going to happen. We're going to get maker's mark. We going to find whatever the most delicious fruit to add to maker's mark at that particular moment is. We're going to clarify it in a centrifuge. And then we're going to add liquid nitrogen to it, hopefully, on site here. Hopefully liquid nitrogen if we can get it delivered here and serve you some delicious cocktails. So you're going to want to call in to 718-38985. That's 718-389, uh, 0985 to uh, RSVP for that or uh, email info at heritageradio.com. Then, right? Then, uh, on October 4th, uh, we're going to. No, wait, there's a New York culinary experience. Oh, but that's something that's sold out already. Well, anyway, assuming it's not sold out. You can come, see Nils and I do cocktail demonstration. When is that when it starts? October 2nd at the French Culinary Institute. Seating is extremely limited. I don't know how much that guy costs. Then we have the Berlin bar show on October 4th, where I'm going to be doing a recap with Eben Clem of the
+
+[3:49] science of shaking science of stirring in Berlin. It's actually the 1st time I've ever gone to Berlin. Luckily for me, I was supposed to go for 4 days and have kind of a mellow time fly in, have a day to recompress,
+
+[4:00] but you know, something came up, and so I had to switch my flight, and I'm literally flying in on the red eye, landing at 6 and giving
+
+[4:08] a talk at 12. So I don't sleep on airplanes. So if you come, if you live in Berlin and you come see us in Berlin, expect to see someone, you know, that may or may not have their hair
+
+[4:20] slicked back with their own feces. We're not sure. Well see. We'll see we can do there. I'm just kidding. Yeah, anyway. Then, on October 16th, you can come see, is it the London Bar Show where we're going to be doing a presentation on roto vapping liquors. It's being sponsored by Oxley Jing, correct? Yes. All right. with our bookkeeping out of the way. I guess, right? We can get to some questions? Yes. Okay, let's get you some questions. Jacob Hartleb said, thank you for the show. Love listening to it. Thank you, Jacob. Although he writes his name, once is Jacob, and another one as my friend of mine has the same name Yakubs. I'm not sure which one. I don't know. Anyway. I'm not sure. He lives in Cooks in Oklahoma. And a trend he's noticed among chefs is using wild ingredients, right? Not farm to table, he says, more like wild. Find It Yourself ingredients, such as like the Noma, or like Michelle Bra does, or Mugarites. And he's fascinated with his style of cooking, and it's pretty sure it's been around for a long time. So he wants to know the following. Is there a book, blog, or guide on wilderness, plants, trees, berries, et cetera, that are edible, and, you know, what can guide you to do that? All right? So, this is a question that is close to my heart. Unfortunately, don't know any blogs to do it, but, you know,
+
+[5:41] the only reason I like to travel to places that are near the wilderness is so that I can gather wild food when I'm
+
+[5:49] there. For instance, when I go to the Grand Canyon, I don't really care that much about the actual Grand Canyon. It's like what kind of, you know, what can grow around there? I mean, this is this is a little piece of meat. You know me a little better, if you understand this. Like once you see the Grand Canyon, I'm like, yeah, that's beautiful. It is. It's beautiful, right? But, I mean, come on. Right? I've seen one holy, you know. Right. Now, food is a different matter altogether. Food you can keep eating all the time, right? No? Right? When I go to the beach, all I care about is the stuff that grows along the seashore and the stuff that I can get in the water at the seashore, that's basically
+
+[6:22] it because I had to test sand and sun, right? When I go to forests, I want to know what grows there. Anyway. So this is a subject that I like a lot. And whenever I'm going to travel someplace new and I'm going to be, you know, outside in nature, I try to get a guidebook that helps me.
+
+[6:36] The problem is, is that what you're going to particularly look for in an area really depends on where you
+
+[6:41] live. So, I think a good 1st starting point, even though they're dated, right? The best writing on wild food that I have ever read is by a guy named
+
+[6:51] Yule Gibbons. I don't forget how to spell Yule. I can't spell out loud. I don't have a piece of paper on me, but Yul Gibbons, his 2 most famous books are stalking the wild asparagus is stalking the wild scallop. And they're written probably late 60s somewhere in that late 60s, early 70s, somewhere in that range. And they are fantastic books. Now, again, they're a little bit dated, but he was a guy and all he really liked to do was go out. And Forage for Wild Foods, talking, you know, animals, you know, sea creatures. He never wrote any books on hunting. There is a book on how to illegally poach animals, if you're interested in that, but you can't really serve those things in a restaurant. But, you know, he has in-depth books on searching certain things. Now, he spent a lot of it. He spent time all over the country, which is why his books are good. So he has a little bit of something for everyone no matter where you live in the US. But a lot of his knowledge centers around Pennsylvania, where he lived. He did a lot of work up in Maine. He did a lot of work on the west coast in California. And so he has a lot of, you know, he has a lot of really interesting, interesting things, and he's got a really good perspective. So if you haven't ever read any book on Foraging, I would go immediately buy those books on Bookfinder, they're basically free. No one cares about them. I would get stalking the wild asparagus and stalking the wild scallop. Now, if you're interested in something specific like mushrooms, right? You know, I have a bunch of guidebooks on mushrooms and, you know, I
+
+[8:15] guess, I don't remember off the top of my head which the best ones are, but if you go to Paul Stamitz's website, he's out on the west coast, I think, in I forget whether
+
+[8:25] it's in Washington or in Oregon, but he's, you know, one of the worldwide authorities on
+
+[8:29] fungus. I would not go collecting mushrooms for the 1st time by yourself. I would find any one of the local mycological societies in your area. They usually sponsor tours, where you can go learn how to properly gather mushrooms in your area without getting poisoned, right?
+
+[8:44] It's important not to get poisoned. The same thing goes true with plants. So when you get beginner's books on wild, on wild food collecting, the important thing is to realize what is easy to recognize and what is easy to confuse with something poisonous,
+
+[8:59] right? Because there are a couple of mistakes you can make that if you make that mistake, you can die, right? Yeah, yeah. But, but, and actually, that's the main problem that happens when someone's used to gathering something wild in one area,
+
+[9:13] right? Where it's totally safe, and then they go to another area where there's something similar that looks similar, but it's poisonous, right? That can happen sometimes. So it's best to know what grows in your in your area. And also, if you go with someone who's ever done it, who's experienced, right? They can point to you, and once you see a plant live and you touch it live, you smell it live, and you gather it live, odds are, you're never going to make a mistake with it, right? And so in general, I would read all those books, and I wish I had more of the modern books available, but I would, you know, go with someone who's done it before as just a foolproof thing. Now, that aside, there are some things that are extremely easy to, you know, easy to figure out. Even in New York City, where I live. There's enough, there's a wild green called Oric, sorry, Lamb's
+
+[10:00] Quarters laid Oric. And Lamb's Quarters is a great, you know, green, and it grows wild in New York City. Any place there's a vacant lot in New York City. I could, in the lower east side today, if I wasn't worried about back to feces, again, feces and urine sprayed all over it, and who
+
+[10:15] know, God knows how much gas exhaust and all that. I could create a delicious salad out of stuff growing out of the vacant lots within 2 blocks of my house on the
+
+[10:23] lower east side. I've never done it because, ew. Your wife would kill you. Yeah, yeah, but, you know, you could. So, you know, just because you live in a high density area, if there's vacant lots, there's still the opportunity to search for
+
+[10:36] greens. Another mistake people make with wild foods is they try and have their entire, they, you know, look, you know, it's very
+
+[10:42] difficult unless you live in the middle of some vast wilderness where there's known supplies of wild crap to be able to go and get all of your food or substantial portion of your food from
+
+[10:52] wild wild items. But there is almost always something you can gather wild locally at any given time in the year to add an accent note or
+
+[11:01] to, you know, round things out or to bring out a lot of flavors. So it's a subject I'm very interested in. And, you know, thanks, I think this is the 1st question we've had on that. I think so. Yeah, I mean, my favorite things to collect is there's a, in Maine, where I go every year, there's a wild sea rocket that is just, I mean, it's really, really
+
+[11:18] spicy and a little bit bitter. rocket like arugula, but I love gathering that stuff, and I mix it with Oric, which is the seaside version of Lamb's Quarters. And it makes just a fantastic set. And they also have wild sea beans there, which are salty, so you don't need the extra salt from it.
+
+[11:33] That's like the best seaside salad ever, you know? And then, of course, from the water there you get mussels and, you know, sea urchins and, you know, just fantastic things. But I don't know, I've never been to Oklahoma. It's unfortunately. So I don't know what grows around there, but I guarantee you that there is something good to be had. So thank you for calling that in. And the 2nd part of his question was, uh, do you, uh, how do you extract pine needle flavor or tree bark flavor? I don't have access to a roto app, but I do have a vacuum packer and a whipped cream maker. Um, So the, I'm not sure how he wants to know whether he can do it in oil. Presumably he doesn't want to do it in alcohol because he suggests oil and water. Pine needle flavor. You can extract extremely well into alcohol in a vacuum machine.
+
+[12:22] I'm assuming you can do it in an ISI whipper. I haven't done it. I don't know what the results will be into oil. I can just say to try it out, but there are some varieties of things that look like pines that are
+
+[12:35] poisonous. For instance, the U. It looks kind of like pine is poisonous, but most pine trees. Now, listen, please look this up. Like, don't go out and say Dave Arnold said pine trees are, but, you know, that's the old joke. they used to make about Yule Gibbons. So you go around saying many parts of a pine tree are edible because they are, right? You got your pine nuts. And, but, you know, I make a
+
+[12:58] habit, and Nils makes a habit, actually, of walking around in the springtime, pulling the new shoot, the new growth pine needles off of pine trees and chewing on them because they're fantastic.
+
+[13:06] So, you know, classically, you can make a tea out of pine needles. And you can, I'm sure you can make a flavored oil out of it or water using a vacuum or an ISI.
+
+[13:15] The trick with pine is that most people have most people have an association with pine of, uh, like
+
+[13:26] Lysol, uh, not Lysol. What that stuff called? Pine sol, pine sol. So, you know, they're really worried that it's going to go pine solly and it's going to taste. And so I like pine drinks and Nils likes pine drinks and we do them, but you have to be super, super careful. So you also want to make sure that you're, you know, that the type of pine you use, like, you know, whether it's
+
+[13:43] kind of like a sprucey kind of flavor or a fur kind of flavor, like a dug fur or whatever. It doesn't taste too bathroom cleansery. Because if it does, even if it's delicious, people won't like it. For instance, lavender does the same thing. So a lot of people that like to mix with lavender, there's a good 50 to 60% of the population that if they detect lavender at all, they're going to say it tastes like
+
+[14:03] perfume or a bathroom. And so it just has to do with association, not because it's not delicious. And so I've had a lot of problems, a lot of heartache, trying to make pine things that I think are delicious, and some people don't like them just because of their associations with them.
+
+[14:18] And you know what? That's the brakes. You just got to be careful of it. So if you're making it for yourself, it's one thing, but if you're making it for someone else, it's just something to be aware of.
+
+[14:27] Um, Anyway, so I hope that uh, answers. Oh, and bark, you want to know about bark. I've never done any work with Bark. I bet you can extract it, but the, I mean, I've, the closest I've had to bark is basically wood extracts and they're pretty weird. They're kind of sour and, uh, you know, if you if you've ever had a rotovap and you've rotovaped, uh, you know, alcohol out and you're left with basically oak water. And it's some pretty potent kind of barky wood taste. I bet you could do it. I don't know how potent it's gonna be, though, when it's done via a vacuum machine. But please give it a shot and tell us, right? Okay. Okay, now let's go to the next question from Chip Stadnick. Chip Stadnick asks us. First of all, he says hello. He hopes all is well, Nastasia, is it? Yeah. As well. He's doing well. Okay. He wants to know about the polyscience smoking gun versus an herbal vaporizer with a whip. And there's something called the pocket, travel, portable, butane handheld herbal vaporizer that he found on eBay. And so let me just, he wants to know about the difference between them. you know, is it worthwhile getting one versus the other? And I think most people aren't going to know what we're talking about. So I will tell you. So in the, I don't know, 80s or something, people started making little vacuum cleaners, handheld vacuum
+
+[15:49] cleaners for computer keyboards, basically, to vacuum crap out of computer keyboards. And someone who is apparently enterprising when they're not stoned, but when they're
+
+[15:58] stoned is extremely lazy, decided to reverse the battery in one of these things and drive them backwards.
+
+[16:04] So instead of becoming vacuum cleaners, they're actually little blowers. And then they unscrewed the top and they screwed in a pipe bowl into the top of it, and then they would pack, well, tobacco, right? They'd pack marijuana into the top, light it, turn it on, and it would automatically, you know, create pot smoke without, you know, without you having to exert the extra energy to inhale,
+
+[16:25] right? I mean, basically like extremely lazy pot smoker thing, right? And this became kind of a popular item in head shops, head shop here. I don't know if you're from abroad. That means a place where you go to buy pot stuff, you know, and listen to Grateful Dead and whatnot. About, you know, in the early 2000s, mid 2000s, these things started to be used in Europe primarily at the beginning to do smoking.
+
+[16:46] So they would put wood chips and other flavored herbs into them, light them and blow out smoke. And so famously, uh, you know, the Roka brothers, uh, at
+
+[16:54] Elkolar Conroca would blow smoke underneath a big cloche, and then they would lift the close up when
+
+[16:59] they, when it came to your table. You wouldn't see the food. They would lift it up and the smoke would rise up, you know, and just, you know, envelop
+
+[17:05] you or they had a thing where they had a slipper shaped glass and they would have a plastic over it and they would inject smoke into it. And every time you ate off of this tightly stretched plastic on the top, a smoke ring would puff up and you would get the aroma of the smoke.
+
+[17:17] Okay? So that, and the polyscience, the people, the good people that make circulators, now available, Williams, Dima. Uh, they, um, they made basically a more robust version of this that they sell called the smoking gun.
+
+[17:31] So most people use this to inject smoke into things or, you know, some people have rigged it to inject smoke into their vacuum machines right after it's
+
+[17:38] vacuum. Smoking with them is kind of interesting. It's not the same thing as regular smoking. You notice if you inject smoke into a container and let it
+
+[17:47] sit, that all of a sudden it'll become clear, the particles will settle out. So I don't think that continuous smoking gives it. I don't think that this smoking gun gives the same flavor as continuous smoking, but I think it's useful for a lot of things. Now, vaporizer is entirely different. In a smoking gun and anything like the smoking gun, you're actually lighting the product on fire, combusting
+
+[18:07] it, and that's how you're making smoke. Okay? Now, in a vaporizer, and the most famous one of these is the volcano vaporizer, and it's most famously used in cooking by Grant
+
+[18:16] Aikitz at Linea, restaurant in Chicago. And the way a vaporizer works is fundamentally different. Instead of lighting the material on fire, and then having, you know, having it burned. Instead, you heat a chamber to, you know, to a temperature that
+
+[18:32] basically literally vaporizes the material without actually lighting it on fire. And then usually, you know, some sort of air is forced through it. And then you get like a, in the volcano, you get a bag full of flavor. So then, you know, Grant would do things like, you know, vaporized sage, things like that, and get those kind of aromas. And this thing that apparently now, and I didn't even know this, so thanks, Chip, for bringing this to my attention, they have vaporizers that are built on butane lighter technology that fit into your hand that are a whole hell of a lot cheaper than the volcano.
+
+[19:02] But they're fundamentally different technologies for making, uh, uh, flavored, you know, aroma airs. One is combusting the material and the other one is held at a temperature below outright combustion.
+
+[19:14] The theory of vaporization is that it's going to provide cleaner flavors. The theory when you're smoking it, right? Because they're both meant for pot. You're both supposed to smoke pot with them. And the theory is, is that you can get all the THC when you vaporize it without all kind of nasty tar and crap like that because it's happening at a lower
+
+[19:29] temperature. So you're not forming a lot of the nasty chemicals. May or may not be true. I haven't read the science behind it, but they do, I know from experience, doing using them for cooking, that they do produce different results because one's a lower temperature than the other. So they're not, they're not identical. So, you know, I haven't done a lot of super side by side, but I know that they're not equivalent items. One's more of smoker, and the other one's more of kind of like a aroma
+
+[19:54] that's slightly kind of combusted, smoky smelling, but not the same thing as outright smoke. So I'm interested in this. I have a volcano. I haven't really used it because I haven't thought of a culinary application. It wouldn't make me feel like I was ripping grant off, but if I ever did, I would use it. It's a fine piece of equipment and this portable thing also seems interesting. So I hope that has answered your question, chip, and this brings us to our 1st break. Cooking issues radio on the heritage radio network. One, two, three, four.
+
+[20:33] I don't care. About your best. I just want, I love to live, I don't care Got it. About your fault I
+
+[21:02] just want To
+
+[21:06] satisfy your fault. Oh When
+
+[21:14] you kiss me? Would you marry me? Hold my head Make me
+
+[21:28] under I make up In a cold sweat
+
+[21:36] Oh
+
+[21:48] I don't care. About your walk. I just wanna... Tell you about the dues and
+
+[22:03] don't I don't care.
+
+[22:07] How about the way you take me, darling? I just want You
+
+[22:19] understand me, Holly. Oh, When
+
+[22:27] you kiss me. Can you mad at me? Welcome back to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold cooking issues here with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, coming to you not live from the
+
+[22:41] Bushwick Block Party on Sunday, Heritage Radio Network. Today's show, I don't know if I mentioned this before, today's show is brought to you by the fine folks at Fairway, like no other market. So Fairway has, I think, 3 locations here in the New York areas. Best my knowledge, they have the original one on the Upper West Side, which is, you know, a mob house because so many people want to go shop there. And then they have one that's up in Harlem that opened actually, I
+
+[23:08] guess in the late 90s, mid late 90s back when I used to have my studio up there in art school. And man, did we love shopping at that because they have a giant refrigerated, where, you know,
+
+[23:17] warehouse, where the meat is stored, like the meat and the fish. And I used to love that because I could just, you know, all of a
+
+[23:25] sudden I didn't have to go walk to shop to get really good, you know, cheese and things like that. At the time, it was really inexpensive. I haven't been back. And then, of course, they have the one near IKEA in Red Hook. So Fairway, like no other market. Okay. Now, we have a question from Aaron Hart. So, Erinhart, uh, was is particularly thinking about a couple of uh, a couple of radio programs ago, uh, I told someone who was just going back to college that what she should do
+
+[23:52] is uh, is use her microwave to achieve extraordinarily high temperatures uh, so that she could uh, sear things, right?
+
+[24:00] And so, you know, for those of you that, you know, didn't hear it before. Basically, the issue is, is that you can get certain materials,
+
+[24:08] absorb microwaves, right? Water absorbs microwaves very well, which is why microwaves are, you know, they're used, right? So they choose a frequency that absorbs water absorbs very well and things get hot. Now water can't get above boiling, right? Unless it's under pressure or can't get above boiling. So it kind of self-regulates, but there are other things that also absorb microwaves quite well. They can get way above the temperature of boiling water. And this is used by certain people to do things like, you know, melt low temperature metals using microwave absorbing crucibles in their
+
+[24:42] in their microwave. And this is entirely feasible. Now, the a really easy to get material that absorbs microwave fairly well is silicon
+
+[24:50] carbide, because that's what they may cut a lot of cutting stones out of them, right? So you can just go buy one of these carbide, silicon
+
+[24:57] carbide, cutting stones, and throw it in your microwave. Please don't put it directly on the floor of your microwave because it will ruin your microwave, put it on something that is insulating that can take the heat. And you nuke it. Now, how long you have to nuke it depends on how thick it is, but it can get really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hot. Uh, you know, I'd mentioned, I think, you know, another couple, you know, week or 2 ago that we, you know, cracked an egg onto one that we did and it just, you know, instantly huge bubbles came up. It's a little too hot for the egg. So it overcooked the egg. Nastasia thought it was gross because it was a used cutting stone. You know how nastasia gets about things. Once she has a mental problem with it, it's all over. She can't deal with it. But Aaron wonders, is it somehow possible to use this interaction to rig up a better than conventional oven for doing things like tandori chicken or
+
+[25:43] pizza. Well, that's an excellent question. I would say yes and no. So the pizza, the problem with, you could clearly get a small stone for small pizza up to temperatures easily, easily up to temperatures required to do
+
+[25:59] the floor of a pizza oven, right? So you're talking, you're talking up in the 800 Fahrenheit range in that
+
+[26:08] area easily. Now, the problem is that you have to also get the ceiling up to that or you're just going to light the bottom of the pizza on fire without cooking the top. And if you put 2 stones in there, It's going to be almost impossible for you to determine, you know, to
+
+[26:25] kind of get the ratio right between heat from the top and heat from the bottom.
+
+[26:28] I'm told, although I am not sure, right? Most things that are called combination microwave toaster ovens aren't really a combination microwave toaster
+
+[26:37] oven, they're like a microwave and then a toaster oven, but I believe there is one that has the heating elements, the toaster heating elements in the same
+
+[26:43] box as the microwave. If you had one of those suckers. You could put the thing in the bottom, heat the hell out of that rock till it got up to like 600 degrees, crank that
+
+[26:52] toast element up and, you know, to as high as that sucker will go. Put your pizza into that thing and then rip the hell out of it and get
+
+[26:58] it get it to, you know, get the bottom done and the top done at the same time. Another alternative would be. If you had a broiler in a regular oven, you could get your pizza stone in your microwave up to a zillion degrees, put the thing on, cook the bottom of it, pull it out, flash it underneath the broiler for a while to get it done. This is the way Otto, Otto is the restaurant here in New York City that makes
+
+[27:17] pizza as part of the Batali Empire. And their style of pizza is to actually griddle, griddle or grill. I can't remember where they use a grill or grill, something like that. Anyway. But they cooked the bottom of the pizza first, basically, and, you know, cooked the bread a little bit first. Then after they're done, flash under a broiler with the toppings. I do this at home in the summertime when I make pizza because it doesn't heat up my kitchen as much. When I crank my oven up to 800 degrees, my kitchen gets extremely hot. If I just have my crate maker, which is basically like a griddle and I flash cooked a pizza on both sides and then stick it under my salamander to finish out in a broil, I don't think the results are as good as an oven that is, you know, really cranked out for pizza.
+
+[27:58] but it's it's pretty damn good. You know what I mean? And it doesn't heat up your kitchen as much. So it's definitely viable. I hadn't thought about a tandor, but that's kind of an interesting, interesting idea. I bet you could. The real problem is going to be, like I said, regulating heat from the top and heat from the bottom at the same time. And, um, like I said, I don't think it's exactly the same to break it into 2 parts, to 1st do the bottom on a hot
+
+[28:21] rock, and then to do, uh, you know, the top from a from a broiler standpoint, but, you know, maybe you could get it to work. What do you think? What do you think? You know what I think. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. I think you're thinking maybe. don't know. think she's saying she's not paying attention. doesn't matter what I'm saying. Oh, I am, I am. Yeah. So, uh, anyway, so I definitely think there's a lot to be a lot to be learned, a lot to be discovered um, with uh, with microwave. The trick is to get a silicon carbide piece that's the right size, so you could cook something reasonable on it without having it be so thick that the majority of microwaves get absorbed into something that's not useful underneath
+
+[28:56] the bottom, but at the same time that has enough retained energy, such that when you stick a pizza or something onto it, that it gets
+
+[29:01] it, that real wallop that you want to get out of the stone oven. Uh, you know, you also you could maybe do a thicker pizza than you could normally this way because if you kept the microwave going while you're doing
+
+[29:10] it. You'd also internally cook the bread a little bit while it was going. It might actually be really good technique. Estasia, you can't see her, but she looks extremely unconvinced. No, no, no, no. Thinking about it. I have a fireplace at home behind my kitchen. And Nastasia, Nastasia's favorite thing is to rent apartments from people that have their fireplaces plugged up because the chimneys are unsafe because they haven't been cleaned in 8000
+
+[29:34] years and then to make them functional again merely by ripping out the bricks that have been bricked
+
+[29:40] over. She literally will invite anyone, like any neighbor, anyone she meets within 5 blocks of her house. She'll buy a sledgehammer. Actually, she'll make them bring the sledgehammer, make them go buy the sledgehammer, bring it. And then for the pleasure of having her company, right? And a beer or two, they will slay slavishly break open the old fireplace and then she will use it again, like come hell or high water.
+
+[30:03] true or false. Yeah, and someday I want to cook in a fireplace. Yeah, me too. There a couple of excellent books on fireplaces. I don't even have an old fireplace in my building because my building was built in the 50s. Um, but yeah, you know, if I ever get a place out in the country, which I hope to do, if, you know, if we can ever scrape 2 nickels together long enough
+
+[30:22] to, for my wife and I to go and get a place in the country, I will have a giant
+
+[30:26] indoor outdoor kitchen with an outdoor, outdoor on one side and fireplace on the other, huge freaking
+
+[30:32] hearth. mean, I can't wait. Someday it's gonna, you know, cooking with fire is great. You know, that's another thing. People think that because you cook with high tech all the time that you don't enjoy like all those other forms of cooking. Those people are wrong. They're dumb. Dumb, dumb. dumb, dumb. Yeah, fire is delicious. Anyway, uh, and and by the way, going back to tandor, I almost bought and put in my house a gas fired
+
+[30:57] tandor. I didn't have the money at the time to put it in. It would have cost me probably a grand or something like that. I didn't have the money. But I was thinking of building one just by hand anyway. And then I realized that my wife already puts up with enough crap. And I would have had to get rid of something. And, you know, it would probably have been the fryer, and since frying is God's cooking technique, and fryer is the last thing on
+
+[31:18] earth I would give up, like the fryer and a bathroom or the last 2 things I would give up in in my house, probably. And, um, And so, yeah, I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. But I'm going to bury I'm going to dig a hole in the ground. If I ever get a piece of ground for myself, I'm going to dig a hole in the ground, put a tandor in, it's going to be one of the very 1st things I do
+
+[31:38] as part of the indoor outdoor kitchen because I think if everyone had a tandor, everyone would just be a little happier,
+
+[31:45] right? Right. Right? Let's go to break. Okay, we'll go to break and we'll come back with the last segment of cooking issues. On the way you're doing. Don't know why All the way to do it If I keep loving you My life will be ruined. I've come down here. I'll be running around. Run, God, hip. Look here, to your running back. But do you know one thing? I'm gonna put you down. Get it together. Get it together. Get it together. Get it together. Oh, you decided you wanted. A brand new bag. You said you want it. A brand new bag. But you, you were just diving. You wanted to feel drank. It's up down at school. Welcome back to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Dave Arnold and Nastasia Lopez coming to you not live today, answering your cooking questions. So let me get right into the last question we had emailed. It's actually a question and an answer. So we've had an ongoing kind of question with a friend of mine, Julio, who's actually a well-known fashion
+
+[33:27] designer here in the city. And, by the way, was, uh, is it good friend to Priscilla Morgan, who was amused to Isama No Gucci, and one of the people's part of the Batterbury friends. People I know through Michael Batterberry, uh, and through Jonathan Marvel, an architect friend of mine. Anyway, so long way in introduction. Anyway, he's interested. He, for some reason, wants to reduce his caloric intake, even though the man looks great. He does not look at all fat, but he's worried about his caloric intake. And so he has a sweet tooth. And so he's been asking how to reduce sugar content, especially in things like meringues. And I should have thought of this kind of stuff right away, but because I'm a dunce, I didn't. And, um, uh, George, uh, Davidson called in and he said or wrote in and said, I have an answer. Why not use Maltadextrin to stabilize it? And that is excellent. I don't know what the hell I was thinking to not say it. an excellent suggestion. George came up with this because his wife had gestational diabetes, you know, for those of you that don't know a lot of women, not a lot,
+
+[34:35] but, you know, a certain percentage of women, when they get pregnant, get diabetes during the
+
+[34:40] pregnancy and then they have issues with sugar. So maltodextrin, right? What maltodextrin is, is it you take starch, which is a bunch of repeating glucose units and you break it up into smaller units.
+
+[34:54] And so the maltodextrans are, uh, you know, they're, like, you know, several glucose glucose is long. They're like, I don't know, like eight, 10, six, eight, 10 glucose is long, right? So the more glucoses are in a row in Maltodextrin, the bigger they are, the less taste they have. So, uh, the shorter they get, like like 3 glucosis for it, they start tasting sweet, right? So, and 2 glucoses together is called maltose, right? So, and then one glucose is called glucose. Anyway, so basically, maltodextrins are these things that are kind of like, you know, they're not long chain things, like starches, like, you know,
+
+[35:35] 100s 1000s of glucose is long. And, um, uh, maltodextrins are much shorter, and they're usually very bland. Sometimes they're sweet. Depends on which one you get, and they can be derived from any kind of starch. Tapioca, starch, corn, starch, rice, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter, right? But they all have extremely different physical properties, which is why you have to be careful. So, for instance, one of the one of the applications, people will always say, hey, Dave, I want to use tapioca
+
+[36:03] maltodextrin, to make oils into pallors, right? And we hear this a lot. Yes. I hear this a lot. Don't ever say that, right? saying like tapioca maltodextrin is like saying, hey, I need to do something. I need some sort of vehicle on wheels that rolls. Do you need, like, a flexible flyer wagon, or do you need, like, a Hummer? You know what I mean? Like, because, like, they're very different in properties, right? So, for instance, the tapioca maltadextrin, that you use to turn powders into oils, is something called Enzorbit, and Zorbit,
+
+[36:38] and I think, and Zorbit, from the National Starch Corporation. And it's a very specific maltodextrin made from tapioca that is extremely not
+
+[36:48] dense, right? It's extremely has a very, very high volume, very low density. And so they use it as a bulking agent, but the reason they can turn oils into powders is because when you put a starch,
+
+[37:02] right? It's basically a big helix, right? Just like DNA is a double helix. is a single helix, it's a helix. And the inside of that helix hates water, hates it, hydrophobic, right? But likes oil. So oil can go on the inside of that starch helix, right? But on the outside of that loves water, right? And that's why this maltodextrin can, that is helical like a starch. That's why the maltadextrin dissolves in water so well and why it, you know, dissolves in your palate on your mouth so well. So, what happens, what happens is that you put the oil in, the oil goes into the inside of the helix, but because the maltodextrine has such a, you know, so
+
+[37:45] so not dense. It's so fluffy, then it can basically fluff out and stay separate and you have this kind of powdery oil.
+
+[37:53] But as soon as you put this stuff in your mouth, right, it goes instantly dissolves back and there's very little actual material there. So like a bag of, you know, a bag of a pound of maltadextrin, a tapioca maltadextrin, a kilo of it. like, you know, like a size of a beanbag chair. It's crazy. You know what I mean? so not dense. That's basically what it does. Now, um, the reason this helps you, uh, it gets, you can digest it. So it has calories, like a starch. It's the same number of calories per gram, but typically for usage, you use far fewer grams because it bulks up very well. And so you won't use as much. So you can actually get a reduced caloric intake by using it. Now, if you're diabetic, This is a great thing to use because it doesn't have any sort of insulin problems. So what he was doing for his wife was using a tapioca maltadextrum, presumably not Enzorbit. He doesn't specify which one. And saccharine as a sweetener, but you could use anything that, you know, is
+
+[38:52] safe for diabetics as a sweetener, and he uses, um, he uses, uh, what does he use? He doesn't say how much. Yeah, he uses Sweden low, but he doesn't say how much maltidextrin he uses. Um, but the whole advantage is that you can use a lot less Malta Dexter. Maltadexter is also good. Anytime you want to add bulk to something. So another kind of meringue that we make at the school, actually, quite a lot, is made with something called, my brain's on Friday, because I'm listening to this music from the Bushwick
+
+[39:22] Block party. But it's called methocellulose. So methocellulosis, I always like to say that all the hydrocollids we use are all 100% natural. This is the one that kind of isn't. It's not natural. I mean, it's not, like, I always say it's not a natural, but I don't think it's ungodly, right? It's basically a modified cellulose product. Its not found in nature. But it has a very interesting property that it gels when it's heated. And also, it can act certain of them. The one we use is methylcel, F, like frank,
+
+[39:50] 50, like Hawaii 50, F 50. And basically, it is a good whipping agent. So we use it when we're making meringues that we don't want to add egg white too, right?
+
+[40:03] So they're basically, you don't have to add, the egg white is a protein, so it's a whipping agent, but it also forms the structure of the meringue. Uh, of the, of these, like, making little quote marks. I don't know how to say it, meringue, you know. And so what we can do is we can basically take pure fruit purees, and then we that are bulked up by having a lot of pectin in them, having a lot of solids from the
+
+[40:27] fruit. And then we usually add sugar for taste, but you could add anything to it. You wouldn't need to add sugar for taste, because the sugar's not such a structural component in these meringues. Then we add methyl cellulose, which we use as a whipping agent. And then, um, we whip them up and they, uh, and then you dehydrate them and they're like a meringue. They're fantastic. The only problem is they don't really last outside too long because they suck up moisture. hygroscopic. Anyway. But if there's not enough bulking agent in the product, like if you're doing, let's say, Nori or something, something that doesn't have a lot of stuff to it, you can put Maltodextrin in as the bulking
+
+[41:06] agent. So you have any sort of maltodextrin in there, usually along with
+
+[41:10] xanthan to make it a little thicker and then methocellulose, and you whip it like a meringue. You pipe it and you dehydrate it and it eats just like a meringue, but you can have extremely low sugar volumes. And actually, this is kind of something that I endorse. And normally, like I say, I don't endorse necessarily removing products just to reduce their caloric
+
+[41:27] intake, but, you know, we can do this and we can get really interesting flavor results. And that's why I think it's kind of an interesting, an interesting thing to do. Uh, you know, so what do you think? I think we finally answered this question or have we not? I think so. Well, we'll find out the week after. We'll find out the week after. Okay. I think, you know, but okay, so the 2nd part of the, this was a comment, thank you and a question. And the question was, he's interested in making habanero vodka because we've been
+
+[41:57] discussing, we've been discussing habanero vodka for a while. And he said, how long will it last? And do you think it would do well in a vodka cream sauce? And then also, why do vodka cream sauce recipes tell you to reduce the vodka? When I say reduce the vodka, not make less of it, but to put it in the pan, flash it off, right? This is pointless vodka, pure ethanol, or ethanol, and water, actually, and reducing it, just remove some. Why not add it near the end and reduce the amount? And do you think this makes a difference flavor wise? Well, that's an excellent question. I will answer the 1st one because I know the answer. When you use hobbanero to make a vodka, if you are using green habaneros, the flavor, I think, will be fairly stable. If you were, I don't use green habaneros. If you are using red habaneros, um, the flavor, in my experience, in my experience has not been with infused habanero, it's been with distilled
+
+[42:48] habanero. My experience has been the flavor is unstable, uh, that it's pretty good for a couple of months. It's not that it goes bad. it goes green. So after, you know, 6 months a year, when you taste it, it's no longer going to taste like that amazing floral fruity habanero that you're used to, it's going to taste closer
+
+[43:07] to, um, it's going to definitely taste greener, right? And it's going to, and I don't know why. And it's definitely going to taste. Some people say it tastes more like a jalapeno at that point. You've tasted it, right? It does. Yeah. And so that's what happens. you've got a good couple of months if you keep it in the freezer. You got a good couple of months out of it before it starts to go on you. We've also never stored it at extremely high proofs. We've stored it basically at 100 proof at about 50%. And that's been our experience. It does work well in sauces. I have used it in sauces and the flavor really comes through in a sauce. It's really a great way to add habanero. Well, the way we do it, it's got the habanero aroma, but not the capsation, not the spiciness. And so it's a great way to add habanero flavor to something like a sauce without adding a lot of spice. I don't know why the hell you would reduce the vodka when you put in. You're not getting rid of the alcohol, obviously, when you're boiling it. getting rid of some alcohol. Like, you know, some people think you boil all the alcohol away, and that's not the case. You boil some away. I don't know why you would add more and then reduce it to get rid of some of the ethanol because I would guess that
+
+[44:12] the, the, you know, it's not like, um, it's not like in a, uh, in situation
+
+[44:18] with, uh, where you put alcohol in a batter to reduce a gluten formation or something like that. I mean, presumably it's there just to increase
+
+[44:26] the volatile release of, you know, aroma wise, I would guess, although I haven't done a lot of research on it. So I would think that adding a smaller amount later would probably do the same
+
+[44:35] thing, I'm guessing, but that's a guess. Um, and I'm sure I'll get some emails telling me why that is completely wrong. But anyway, I hope that answered that question. So let me see, to finish out, this is some other interesting stuff. We just did a party. How many days ago was that? Two days ago, we did a, yeah, Vogue, Vogue magazine, Jeffrey Steingarten, who was on this program. Basically, friends with Dave Chang, convinced Dave Chang to do this party for Vogue, for fashion, fashion
+
+[45:05] week night out. some, I don't know, some sort of, yeah, some sort of show. Anyway. And so, and then somehow we got roped into doing a cocktail for it. And Dave had on his clean black shirt. Yeah, I put on my, I put my special, my special vogue fashion clean, clean black t-shirt to serve these drinks. But anyway, so, uh, we might do a, we might do a version of this for the uh, heritage radio if the peaches aren't good. We might, yeah, so it's Concord grape. Clarified, the way we clarified it. The problem with concord grapes is concord grapes, they're delicious, but if you are too aggressive when you're getting the juice out of
+
+[45:40] them, You crush the seeds and it takes on a bitter note. So you have to kind of do a good job crushing, but then you also want to get really good extraction.
+
+[45:47] So we 1st put it through an ice crusher, and then we put them along with our SPL, which is our pectin breaking down enzyme, put that, which you can
+
+[45:57] contain from cookingissues.com. And then we put it into our chocolate grinder, but we set the chocolate grinder up
+
+[46:03] high so that it wouldn't crush the seeds. So it was just smashing them and then we spun them in the centrifuge. Then we added we added lemon juice and maple syrup, and we'd chill that sucker with liquid and some water. Not a lot, but some. And, you know, that was delicious. Right? Yeah, that was a delicious product. We use rye whiskey in that one, but we'd be using maker's mark in this next. We probably have to change the recipe a bit, but that was that was a delicious, delicious product. And even though, uh, you know, it was like, we sold those drinks. What would we pour, like 400 drinks in like an hour or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. And we sold out. So if you came to that event and you didn't get one of the drinks, I heartily
+
+[46:42] apologize. And let me see. Talk about your new vacuum machine, please. Oh, all right. Well, let me preface it by saying that everyone thinks Dave is very fun,
+
+[46:51] like really, and you are really fun, but you're also the cheapest man alive. Well, about some things, I could not possibly be cheaper. For instance, um, I will not take a cab unless what
+
+[47:04] I'm carrying, well, not even. I was going to say, not even, but I just, yeah, I was, you know, carry it. My legs are not broken. I'm not, I don't see why I'm going to take a cab. Like when I come out to here, I don't take the subway because that costs $2.50, so I or whatever it is. So I bike out here to Brooklyn because my legs are not broken. Why would I do that? Anyway, so the, uh, uh, so Mark Ladner from Del Posto, who, by the way,
+
+[47:25] is, you know, great guy, Mark Ladner, we all love Mark Ladner from Del Posto Restaurant here in New York City,
+
+[47:31] basically, uh, donated to Nastasia, really. I had nothing to do with it. Right? I mean, let's be honest here. You know what I mean? Donated to Nastasia, this old vacuum machine from Del
+
+[47:41] Posto that's like, no, it's like, you know, it's like halfway working. It's almost working. Right? So anyway, so donated to the French culinary institute. And I'm like, a vacuum machine. huh, You know, he's like, you know, you're going to need to get a truck. I'm like, truck, what the heck? Hey, truck, truck. This thing is about half the size of Dave and weighs like 500 pounds. Yeah, anyways, so I show up and look at it, I'm like, oh, geez, because the problem is, like, it'd be hard to lift into a truck without a lift gate. So this is becoming, you know, and, you know, Del Posto is on like what, 16th and like basically the river. Hudson River. 3 miles away from this. No. Yes. Come on. It was like 2.5 . Anyways. So I'm like, to hell with it. I'm not going to pay for a damn truck to come pick up this thing and move it when my legs are not broken.
+
+[48:25] So that picture on the blog that Nastasia posted, in case name I was wondering was, you know, I am that guy who's dumb enough to push the damn vacuum machine from Del Posto to the French
+
+[48:38] culinary institute on the hottest day of the year. And, uh, you know, here's the thing, right? It's like, this is how I get things done. You know, that, you know, it's like, you know, when I was in school, I, you know, I needed
+
+[48:54] something. I jumped into a dumpster, I would get it. You know what I mean? When I when I need to do something, I get on eBay and, you know, you find it for the cheapest possible price just because I've never had enough money to to do things, you know, in a non-getta way. And I've always been willing to spend more time and energy than I probably should to do
+
+[49:13] things. I have since met some people who have not done it that way and are much more efficient. Uh, so maybe, you know, in the future, look for us to be uh, less stupid. But on the other hand, being stupid this way and cheap has, you know, for whatever it's
+
+[49:31] worth, gotten me, you know, where I am. What? It's endearing a little bit. My extreme cheapness. Well, it's good that, you know, the Scottish blood in me brings my extreme
+
+[49:42] cheapness, and is, I'm glad it's at least somewhat endearing. It can be a pain in the butt, especially for, you know, people like my
+
+[49:50] wife who has to deal with my extraordinary cheapness. But, you know, like I say, sometimes, and I'm not cheap when it comes. I buy the best ingredients, all right? I buy the best ingredients. I'm not cheap about that. So it's weird. Like my wife is mad because I spend a ton of money on food because I'm not going to buy food that I think is substandard. Um, which doesn't mean snobby. That's a big problem. Like people think that food, you know, it's between like some effete bastard who only cares about spending a lot of money on their
+
+[50:15] food and between somebody who, you know, just buys crap and doesn't care. you know, there's a lot of people out there. And I think this is the word everyone needs to spread about food, about what's going on with food now. It's just not about, it's not about being a food snob. It's not about outspending the person next to you or getting the rarest ingredient or anything like that, even though I, you know, I deal professionally, I deal in a rarefied world of high-tech cooking. And a lot of that is really expensive, right? So people think that what we're doing is elitist and, well, okay, the stuff that I do for a living kind of necessity is because it's a very, like, very niche
+
+[50:47] high-tech food, but that's not the way, that doesn't mean that's the only thing that's, that good food is, right? Or the only thing that I enjoy doing. And, you know, I think that we all need to step back and make sure that whatever we're doing, we're never being food snobs because
+
+[51:01] I, you know, that's not that way it doesn't lie the best food for the, for the most amount of people, which I think what we're shooting at. And then I will leave you on this note. Heritage Foods, you know, Patrick, Heritage Foods, is interested, has been talking with us about reviving an idea. you know, I had a while ago for a food museum in New York. And so look for, he's starting to put people working on it,
+
+[51:30] right, Stas? Yes. And so look for, look for in a couple of years, look for that to finally actually happen. And that's going to be, you know, I think the best, because we're going to be focused specifically on making sure that it's not about just elitist food or just
+
+[51:47] snobby food. We got to show people that good food is for everyone. Fairway. Fairway, like no other market. That was cooking issue, snakes for listening. will be back live next time. Fishes, fish, rock, bro. Oh, you did.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you did. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues radio on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here with Nastasia Lopez, cooking issues Hammer, and we are coming live to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Call in with all of your cooking related questions. Our speciality is technical questions, but we will take any questions. Call in live to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. and today's show is brought to you by the Whole Foods Market and the Craft Beer Festival, which is coming up starting, I
+
+[0:48] guess, Friday, right? It's a whole week of craft beer stuff. And to kick off the annual series, a Whole Foods market Bowery is hosting a beer and food pairing event at their beer room. Oscar blues is on tap, and chef Jacques Gautier of Park Slopes, Palo Santos, cooking up one of his South American delights to a company. The food tasting goes from 5 to 7 and the beer will continue till 9. With craft beer week passports, get $3 off, 64 ounce growler fill. That's quite a lot of beer, and meet Chef Gautier on Friday, September 24th and enjoy some special tastes on tap from the kitchen. By the way, that's right by my house, actually. The Whole Foods Bowery is right by my house where I live in the Lower East side of Manhattan. And I was happy to see that very recently they have actually a homebrew section
+
+[1:29] there, and I think it's the only place that I know of in Manhattan where you can walk in and buy malt and yeast and all the stuff for homebrewing.
+
+[1:38] So cheers to you, Whole Foods, for making homebrew accessible to us Manhattan
+
+[1:44] Nights. I haven't brewed beer since I was since right before my 2nd son was born. And then my wife was like, hey, you know what? It's already a mess in the damn house. You got 2 kids, no more beer brewing. Because, of course, when I brew beer, like, I can't just be like a normal human being and use extracts. you know, I have full, you know, full malt, you know, I ground it all in my house. you know, it's a freaking mess. Delicious, but a freaking mess. Anyway, call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So, Nastasia, it's been a busy week, right? For the cooking issues crew, which is why you haven't seen much on the blog recently because we've been super busy.
+
+[2:20] We're in the middle of Star Chefs week, which, you know, is a yearly convention of chefs, I guess.
+
+[2:26] What do you think? Star chefs. Anyway, at the armory, on the east side of Manhattan. And uh, you know, a lot of the uh, glitterati of the food world show up for 3 days and hang out and we, we did a cocktail event yesterday, which is good. We have another cocktail event this afternoon and Another one tomorrow. Another one tomorrow. And then coming up on Saturday, and there, I think I believe only 20 tickets left, we are doing a cocktail for the Heritage Radio Network's yearly fundraising barbecue, the
+
+[2:54] Heritage radio party here at Roberta's Pizza in Brooklyn. And if you want to get one of those last remaining tickets. There are $100 a pop. You can email info at heritage radio network.com. That's info at heritageradionetwork.com. Okay, now, let's look for some questions. We have some email questions while we're waiting to see if we get any colors. Don Rollins writes in. And he said he just now listened to one of our previous shows. And there was a question we answered about vodka in sauces. And he says that Alton Brown mentioned, I suppose, on the, what's his good eats, right? On his good eats show, that tomatoes contain several compounds that are soluble in alcohol, but not in water or oil.
+
+[3:31] And adding alcohol to a tomato sauce brings out more of its essential tomato ness based on that fact. Well, Don, I did some research early this morning. Uh, and there are many, many references on the internet to that being the
+
+[3:45] case, to there being an alcohol, like a certain principles in the tomato that are more soluble in
+
+[3:51] alcohol. But I was not able to find any specific technical reference that
+
+[3:57] bore that out. Now, it is true that alcohol is going to change the release, like alcohol in
+
+[4:05] in your in your project is going to change the release of volatiles from it and therefore change the, you know, the flavor impact of the sauce.
+
+[4:13] And I was able to find several technical references to that. There's also some mention on some sites of alcohol actually reacting with the tomato, you know, with the actual tomato to produce flavorful components that were not there before. So those are, you know, some possible things, but I don't have any ironclad evidence that I could find, you know, a scientific paper that said, hey, look, here's what's going on. I do, though, have a text into Harold McGee. So if he gets back to me on the question of tomato sauce and
+
+[4:42] vodka and whether there's anything more complicated going on, I will relay it to you next week. Okay. Jake Andrews writes in to Nastasia and says he wants to know whether anyone, my iPad just died. No, he wants to know, he got taken on eBay with an older poly-science poly-temp circulator that is missing the thermometer to control the bath. Is there anything he can do or is he shafted? Well, I really, you know, I sympathize with you. I had my 1st kind of eBay shellacking recently where I bought a piece of equipment, a refractometer, actually, an automatic refractometer. The thing is, would be, crazy awesome because it measures basically, uh, there were any, you know, the refractive index of almost anything.
+
+[5:24] It'll do bricks 0 up to, you know, in the 90s automatically, uh, you know, automatic temperature compensation. I could put a flow-through device on it so that I could measure things as I'm producing them so I can measure alcohol content as I'm distilling.
+
+[5:37] It has user uploadable software profiles where I can upload. Anyway, it should be like a $5000 piece of equipment. I bought it for $100 on eBay to say it was working, but guess what? It wasn't. And the company, I'm not going to mention Reichert my name, but they were not at all helpful to me. You know, they wouldn't even help me troubleshoot. I think there's a problem with the e-prom, which is the chip that, you know, loads the software into it because hardware wise, it seemed okay. They wouldn't even, like, open their mouths to tell me, like, what to look at. So, uh, shellac. Now, you're lucky in the one sense that polyscience is not like this. I did a quick search on poly temp. I don't have the actual model. Oh, and for those of you that don't know what the hell we're talking about. Immersion circulators are pieces of equipment that are becoming more and more common in kitchens today that very, very accurately control the temperature of liquid. They used to be lab equipment, but now they're basically used in kitchens for low temperature cooking. And Philip Preston from polycience just released the 1st kitchen model, you know, a couple of months ago that specifically designed for a kitchen.
+
+[6:32] It's not just a piece of lab equipment. It a piece of kitchen equipment. Anyway, they're great. I use it every day. It's the party machine. It's the brunch machine. Like if you ever have a party or throw a brunch, this kind of equipment, you know, you should look into it. Anyway, you can see it on our website or go to polyscience.com. Anyhoo, Philip is not a huge fan of you going out and buying used equipment because he wants to sell new equipment.
+
+[6:53] And also, because he says he doesn't know what happened to the equipment back in the day. The other problem is I've worked on many of these eBay things that, you know, in the past 8 years, I've maybe had, or 10 years, I've had, I don't know, 10, 12 ones off of eBay. And a lot of the older models break because they've been used in laboratories for a long, long
+
+[7:13] time, the bearings tend to go bad on them. You tend to have corrosion on the internal contacts, which leads to resistance and overheating on the internal parts. So there are issues with the older ones. I'm assuming if it's older, it's analog. The good news is, if you can get it to work, the analog ones are fairly accurate. Once you set them, you just need to get a separate thermocouple to monitor digitally what's going on. Now the problem is, is that you don't have a temperature probe on it. Now, I did some research and it appears that some of the older polyscience circulators have what's called a thermocouple, basically, which is easy to source. The newer ones all use platinum RTDs, which also are not difficult to source or to wire. So what I would do is contact, you know, give me the model
+
+[7:54] number, or contact polycience directly and ask them what type of what type of probe that unit has. And any one of those probes is very easy to source via eBay or McMaster
+
+[8:06] car, not that you want to necessarily source on eBay again after you got shafted. But anyway, they're fairly easy to source. So you just need to find out exactly what it is that you need to get. And then make a determination as to whether or not it's worthwhile. First of all, you should fire it up, make sure the motor is still working. You know, make sure the electronics still come on. Anyway, I hope I hope this helps. Okay. One of our people from our SUV class last week, which is the reason why we, you know, couldn't be here live last week,
+
+[8:34] Matt, wrote in and he said, he has actually has a restaurant uptown in my old
+
+[8:39] neighborhood up 109th or 10th, 108th called SIP. And check it out. you're up there. I haven't made it up there yet, but I intend to. So he was wondering whether we ever tried to carbonate liquor. Everyone who knows me personally knows that I carbonate nothing but liquor, basically. Liquor and water. I don't, I don't, I like everything with most everything I like with bubbles in it, right? Nastasia? Yeah, bubbles. What about us? anyway, I like bubbles a lot. So his question is, have we ever tried to carbonate in an old fashion soda water
+
+[9:08] container because he wants to put it behind his bar because he thinks it's, you know, because they do look cool. not because he thinks they look cool. They do look cool. Uh, and he's actually going to make a, uh, he's going to make an infused liquor, um, based on like a pepper and tomato and he wants to carbonate.
+
+[9:23] Now, uh, whether or not it's feasible to use these old bottles depends on what you mean by old bottles. So roughly you can divide into 2 different categories. One is the kind that take chargers on them, like, and to, uh, sorry, CO2 chargers, and these are kind of the older variety home units. Um, that glass with a metal cage around, uh, you know, EC made them,
+
+[9:44] aka ISI, whatever you want to call them, uh, number of other manufacturers used to be made a lot in Czechoslovakia, very thick glasses. And these ones can be used to carbonate. The problem with them is, is that it's very hard to get a very good level of carbonation. First of all, liquor is going to require more CO2 than water. And it's hard to get the headspace out of the top of the unit. So what I recommend is if you're going to use one of those with 2
+
+[10:08] charge, you have to use 2 chargers. And what you do is make sure your liquor is super, super cold, right? Super cold. If you have a vacuum machine, de-erate it 1st to get rid of some of the air. If you don't, don't worry about it because you're going to go to the 2nd step. You're going to put your liquor in, make sure you always fill it to the exact same level every time. This way, you know your recipe is going to work. Changing the level of liquid in the bottle is going to change the amount of carbonation. you have each time. Okay? So make sure it's just the same every time. Make sure the temperature of the liquid is the same every time as cold as possible. Then, put a CO2 cartridge in, swirl it to get it all dissolved, and then vent it so that it foams up, and so you lose, sorry,
+
+[10:46] apologize. Turn it upside down so that the actual siphons, these old seltzer siphons have a rod, which goes down to the bottom so that when you press it, the pressure forces the liquid up through the rod and out the nozzle,
+
+[10:58] right? When you're venting, you have to turn the seltzer siphon upside down so that you're venting the gas and not the product out. Otherwise you're going to be in for a terrible mess. Anyway, so turn the thing upside down, vent out the gas. That's going to get rid of the air, that's still trapped on the inside. And it's also going to get rid of a lot of what's called the nucleation sites, which cause excess bubbling, right? So that's the key step, turning it upside down and venting it. Then turn it right side up, put another charger into it, shake
+
+[11:24] it, and chill it, and you should have a good product. Now, if you mean by old seltzer bottles, the kind that the seltzer man delivers on a truck, or woman, I guess, but typically they were seltzer man, delivers
+
+[11:34] a, on a, delivers on a truck, like 3 Stooges style, and you have a little lever and you squeeze them and you spray your buddy in the face or put out a fire or whatever. No, that one is much more difficult to fill. They don't take a charger and they don't unscrew. Those are actually, the tops are left on them, and they are washed and filled by a machine by actually, you squeeze the nozzle,
+
+[11:57] like, you squeeze the lever like you were going to spray seltzer out of it, and then a machine squeezes a nozzle and fills it without taking the top off.
+
+[12:04] So I've considered for several years actually building something to do that, but I haven't done
+
+[12:09] it and it's not a trivial process. So it tells, and I didn't see anyone on the internet until someone works out like a super slick,
+
+[12:17] do it-yourself way of refilling those old, old seltzer bottles, I would not try to get one of those. Although it's always been a project that I've been interested in. It's just too many projects and too little times. I saw a lot at flea markets and I was going to get you one. Yeah, but also, if you're going to do it, get one with a metal mesh around it because, you know, if someone nicks one of those old glasses and you're inflating it up to 60
+
+[12:36] psi or so, I mean, those were built for 120 psi, but who knows? You know what I mean? I don't want it to shatter and explode glass hole over you. And then you say, hey, Dave Arnold, they're okay to use it. Anyway, that's not... okay. Oh so we have a caller. Hello, caller. How are you doing? Hi, I'm fine. are you? doing well. Okay, I have a question. It's about chicken, because I cook chicken thighs all the time, and it seems like no matter how I cook them, they come out wonderfully and everyone thinks they're
+
+[13:01] great. So whenever I cook chicken breasts or chicken cutlets or even a whole chicken, it just seems like the chicken breasts are never that tasty.
+
+[13:08] They're often dry and especially the next day. Like, the next day, you can heat up a stew with chicken thighs, and it's really good and even better. But whenever I try to heat up chicken breast, the next day, they're even drier. So I just wondered if you have any tips. First of all, you are correct. The chicken thighs are inherently superior to chicken breasts. And I do not know what kind of marketing nonsense has convinced the majority of Americans that somehow white meat chicken is superior to dark meat chicken. It's insane. It's insanity. The thigh is inherently has more taste, it's more fat and connective tissue. It's going to stay more moist and has a higher tolerance to overcooking than the breast meat does. I mean, that's just straight up fact. Okay. And breast meat in like a typical American chicken doesn't have as much flavor as you'd like,
+
+[14:00] but, you know, here is here are some things. do you brine the breasts? No, but that's a good thought. Yeah, here's here's the thing. So when you brine the breast, 2 things are happening, or I brine both, but if you brine the breast with, I usually make some,
+
+[14:14] like a, even you can just do water, solution till it's salty, tasted like salty, almost like ocean salty, and then you add sugar until it just gets sweet.
+
+[14:21] And what you're doing is by adding that salt, you are changing the amount of water that the muscle can hold
+
+[14:29] onto, right? So it seems counterintuitive because when you add salt, usually you're drawing moisture out. But when the salt gets into the meat, it's actually changing the amount of moisture that the meat can hold
+
+[14:38] onto when it cooks, and it gives you a couple extra degrees of temperature before the meat dries out.
+
+[14:43] And it'll also appear moisture when it's when it's cooled down. Um, the, the other, you know, obviously, you want to be careful not to overcook the breast. If you cook the breast separately from the thigh, it's easier. Um, but, um, that the main thing is the brining. Also, the brining is going to increase the salt level on the inside of the meat, which is going to increase the flavor of that
+
+[15:04] meat make it a little less inherently flavorless, you know? So you win 2 times with that. You know, if you have an immersion circulator, that is a spot on way to, you know, the piece of equipment we were just talking
+
+[15:17] about. It's a spot on way to cook it because then you can cook a chicken breast to like 63, 64 Celsius. And when it cools down, it's super juicy and the texture is just right. But I personally, I think it's hard to, you know, using traditional cooking techniques to achieve a good chicken breast that's good as a cold preparation
+
+[15:37] the next day. You know, that's why we tend to chop it up and toss it with mayonnaise. You know what I mean? Okay, yeah, that makes sense. That's what I always. Yeah, I mean, that's delicious too. I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, I love chicken salad. I mean, you know, we grew up on that stuff. I love chicken salad, but, um, So I don't know whether I've been helpful. You probably make it with homemade mayonnaise, right? Uh, you know, I wish I could say that's true, but I like, but there's certain things that you grow up with in life and you just tend to like them and one of them
+
+[16:03] is, I like store bought mayonnaise. I hate to say it. I just like... Yeah, I mean, you know, that's just... Well, what about poaching chicken breast. I mean, that's sort of something we all grew up with too. Right, well, poaching chicken breasts, you know, there's a couple of, I used to do it quite a lot. You know, Jacques Pepin came out with a cookbook in the 80s and he has a chicken salad recipe, poached chicken recipe that he attributes to Danny
+
+[16:26] Kay, the famous actor was also, I believe, a conductor and a fine, fine cook. And he used a technique where he would put it into water, although I would use
+
+[16:36] broth, right? And then you can raise, you raise the temperature until it just comes to the boil and then you cover it and then you let the, the, the heat ride out. Now, it's no way an accurate cooking technique, but it's a variation on a cooking technique that has been used for
+
+[16:49] millennia. For instance, hams used to be cooked that way in a 5 gallon lard container. You would, you know, you would heat the water up in the lard, put the handman, close it, and then wrap it
+
+[16:59] up and let the carryover heat. And the theory is, is that the carryover heat is going to be enough to cook it, but the temperature is going to drop enough that it's not
+
+[17:07] going to horribly overcook the meat by the time it's done. So I used to fill up a, you know, like a pot of water and put, you know, a pot with some, you know, vegetables
+
+[17:17] and, you know, if you had some broth or stock, you could put it in, and then chicken breasts, I would also use thighs, bring it up to the, just to the simmer, close
+
+[17:25] it, and let it ride out, and you get 2 things. You get a nice broth, and you get some nice chicken meat that's good for a cold salad because it was not overcooked but cooked in water, so it didn't lose or cooked in
+
+[17:35] moisture, so it didn't lose a lot of a lot of, you know, a lot of it's, it's not dry. So, and that's, you know, attributable to Danny K through Jacques Pepin, if that's helpful. Well, that's really helpful. Thank you so much. Hey, thanks for listening. Okay, take care. Bye. Take your break, Dave. Oh, and I'm told that we are coming onto our 1st commercial break. This is Cooking Issues.com Cooking Issues radio on Heritage Radio Network. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[18:15] Going down from the field. I wear a team of beef, but I know what it's about.
+
+[18:25] And let it all hang out. Well, so big, but nose, but it's about them. Where people can find it, let your hands, black. And then hear the music, it ain't my band. They're dancing on the good foot. I got to do it. Do it with a good foot. Says a long, yeah, hip, the new, apple, pack, all get together, walk, strike, and they party. Oh, good, good, good, good. They go, good, good, good, good. But the winter... A whole lot of building, nobody spin. That's on my back. You know, my face, getting short, man, got my boots. I got to put the yard, but I'm paying it to use on the good foot.
+
+[19:32] You don't... You got
+
+[19:40] that, did it. Get it! Shop now. Come on get it done.
+
+[19:53] Welcome back to Cookie Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, where we answer your cooking questions at 718-497-2128 718-497-2128.
+
+[20:06] Uh, okay, so Michael Griffiths, uh, from Philadelphia is a follower of the blog. Thank you so much. And he called in because he has having a problem with some seafood sausages he's
+
+[20:16] making, because they added ginger to them, and he says they didn't come out the same, and he's pretty sure that the ginger reacted. He thinks with the eggs and messed it up. He said, because he also has put, um, ginger into consomme, and you couldn't get the raft. When you're clarifying, uh, when you're clarifying things, you add, you traditionally, you add an egg white raft, and the protein, along with whatever ground
+
+[20:38] up, lean meat you put in helps hold onto the, uh, the, what makes it turbid, the turbidity,
+
+[20:42] and uh, helps clarify the stock over time. The actual, the proteins are charged and they actually hold on to, they hold on to the stuff that's making it cloudy. And he's saying, he thinks it's the ginger that's messing it up, and what the hell is going on? Now, I don't actually know that it's the egg white specifically that's having a problem with the ginger. It might actually be the meat and the binding of the muscle proteins together because ginger, you know, it's a well well-known enzyme in ginger is there's a protease enzyme in it. And I believe the name of it, although I could be wrong, is, and I don't know how to pronounce anything, is
+
+[21:19] Zinjabane, Zinjabane. And that's a, you know, a protease enzyme, it's going to break things down. And it's used as a meat tenderizer. And in fact, you know, it's it's, you know, just as effective, if not more effective than Papayin and, you know, all these other commercial meat tenderizer. So ginger juice is a well-known, has been a well-known tenderizer. I believe since antiquity. So, you know, it does contain protease enzymes, and that's going to mess up your raft and might also mess up your sausage. You could cook the ginger, but then beforehand, that would, that would, you know, wipe out the enzyme, but might change the flavor of the ginger, but these things are being cooked anyway. So I think if you pre-cook the ginger, you're not going to have a problem, an interesting recipe to look up that has to do with ginger and proteins is a Chinese dessert called a ginger milk
+
+[22:08] curd where they basically they take a milk and they add ginger and it causes it to curdle and
+
+[22:14] set. So this is a, uh, is a well-known and interesting fact. Thanks for, you know, calling our attention to it. And another interesting thing I looked. I was looking at the technical literature on ginger enzymes. And ginger enzymes, you know, is in Japan or whatever it's called, is very
+
+[22:30] effective specifically at collagen, at breaking down connective tissue, as opposed to, it seems to have a higher affinity for that than other protease meat
+
+[22:39] tenderizing enzymes do. again, thank you for that question. And he also had a question about lobsters, because he heard that lobsters that are in the tanks start to feed off their own flesh, which, you know, is
+
+[22:52] true, because they typically don't feed lobsters in tanks, because if you feel lobster in a tank, it's going to raise the, you know, the waste products that are in the
+
+[22:59] tank and any feed that's not used up is going to, you know, cause
+
+[23:03] problems. So they tend not to feed. I guess also it might cause aggression problems, but I don't remember. been a long time since I've read that kind of technical literature on lobsters. But that is true, but they can survive a very, very, very long time. So I don't know how, I don't know how much flesh degradation there is just from being stored on a tank, although it's something I've heard quite a bit.
+
+[23:22] The next time I speak to a lobster scientist, I will definitely ask them that question. The 2nd thing is, what is the enzyme that breaks down lobster meat after you kill them? Uh, and uh, how long till the enzyme starts to work, et cetera, et cetera. Can you prevent that enzyme from working by freezing it? Now, listen, this is an incredibly complicated question because there's very, very, very many enzymes on the inside of a lobster.
+
+[23:47] Lobster tends to have a breakdown of tissue relatively quickly because the circulatory system and basically all the guts of the lobster, everything's in close proximity and kind of an open system.
+
+[23:56] So once the animal is dead, those enzymes really start to work quickly. There's a number of enzymes. It's not just one enzyme that goes to work in lobsters. There's enzymes in it that breakdown, that breakdown ATP, and other nucleotides, and eventually become products that affect flavor. In fact, um, you know, uh, IMP, and it's, uh, monophosphate is reduced to, or, you know, uh, changed to other things that have a negative impact on quality, and that is easily traced and is used as
+
+[24:25] an indicator of quality because, uh, as that starts to progress, other
+
+[24:30] things, like proteolytic enzymes have also been working, uh, breaking down the, um,
+
+[24:34] the meat. So, and it's, you know, very well known that, uh, I forget what the thing is called, the organ on the inside of the lobster. something like capato pancreas, something like that, contains a variety of protease enzymes that are just going to wreak havoc with the meat.
+
+[24:49] Now, here's the bad news. You cannot stop those enzymes by freezing because as you thaw the meat out, like freezing it, they will work somewhat as they're frozen because unless there's something called the eutectic point where when you freeze something below the point at which there's no water left at all,
+
+[25:05] then, yes, enzymatic activity stops. But in fact, what happens is, is that a normal freezer temperatures, there's still a good bit of unfrozen water left inside of your tissue and enzymes can continue to work in that
+
+[25:18] situation. But real hell breaks loose when you thought, because then you have a lot of water that becomes available to these enzymes that are in a
+
+[25:25] hyperconcentrated state in the remaining tissue of the animal, and they just go to town. And so you end up having huge degradation on thawing. especially if things are, apparently, things are rapidly thawed. So, I hope this answers your question. I plan on doing a lot more work with lobster soon. I've been for literally for a year and a half . I've been supposed to be pitching something to the New York Times on lobsters and what we do with them. So look for more in the somewhat near future, although I don't know, Nastasia. How near future do you think realistically? What are we talking? Oh, Jesus, come on now. It's not right. Okay. Anyway. Oh, another interesting thing. Not only are the enzymes working more, but I found a study that says that the muscle fibers of lobster are something like
+
+[26:17] 4 times more liable to breaking by prolytic enzymes than
+
+[26:23] like mammal tissue. The one they use was rabbit. They said that the lobster meat was broken down 4 times easier than rabbit meat. And I only saw one paper in passing this morning, but anyway. And also, cool thing. There's a paper called novel uses of fish and marine invertebrate enzymes in food industry from 2000, and they have a cool thing that, and it's because of this question. I looked it up. They have a cool technique where they use enzymes to descale fish.
+
+[26:52] So the scales can basically just be washed off and then the skin is perfect. You don't have any problem with knife marks or scraping in the
+
+[26:59] skin, and it's used because people tan fish skins for leather, and those guys don't want any scraping on their
+
+[27:06] skin, and so the enzymatic. I wonder whether there's any application for food industry. What you think? Fun? Look it up. Yeah. Marine Pepsi. The one I found came from salmon. Anyway, soup, thank you for that question. And now, uh, for our former favorite Thai intern, of course, our only Thai intern, we do love him. We pop. We pop soupy pot, asked about the old cucumber trick of rubbing cucumber ends
+
+[27:30] together to get the bitterness out. So for those of you that aren't aware, there's a, there's an old kind of, what do you want to call it? Like a kitchen. What are you going to call it? Old piece of kitchen wisdom. Yeah. Yeah, right. Because I hate that term old wives tale. Yeah, I know. I hate it. What does that mean? First of all, is it old wives or old wives? Why? Why? With a V. Why? Sure. Yes, I'm sure. Okay. Anyway. So, if it was old wives tale, then it would... Why? That's crazy. Anyway, so anyway, there is an old kitchen piece of kitchen wisdom, or maybe not wisdom, that if you take and cut the end of a cucumber off, and then
+
+[28:12] both ends of the cucumber flip it and rub the other end with the other end, then all of a
+
+[28:17] sudden, the bitterness is going to go away. Now, for those of you out there that are like, hey, cucumbers aren't bitter, what the hell is you talking
+
+[28:23] about, right? Now, listen, there are wild cucumbers are bitter. Pickling cucumbers can be bitter. Most supermarket cucumbers, in fact, are not bitter. And if they are bitter, it's the skin that's bitter. It's a very, very small percentage of supermarket cucumbers are bitter.
+
+[28:42] And certain people can't even taste a bitterness even in the cucumbers that are bitter. What's making it bitter and is a thing called
+
+[28:49] cure, I can't, I will never be able to pronounce this. Cucurbitation, B and C. And these are present in all the cucumber plants, but usually not so much in the actual
+
+[29:01] fruit. And if they are in the fruit, they predominate at the stem end. So if you cut the stem end off and then peel it, you're going to get rid of most of the
+
+[29:10] bitter, but I have not found any sort of evidence for rubbing it, getting rid of that
+
+[29:14] bitterness, and it doesn't make any sense. If you're cutting the ends off of the cucumber, well, then hell, you're getting rid of the most bitter part of the cucumber, especially if you peel it. So that's going to help right there. The rubbing looks like it's doing something because it foams up and forms a slime. But if you think about it, and I'm willing to be proven wrong on this, how the heck is you going to pull bitterness out of a whole cucumber just by rubbing the end? I mean, I could stick a the end of a cucumber in a in a pot, a stink for like, you know, half an hour and then cut the stink off and the rest of the cucumber
+
+[29:43] is still fine. So how you going to draw the bitterness out just by rubbing the end, true or false, does he? True. true. She looks upset now. She's never going to eat a cucumber again. So anyway, so if you have a bitter cucumber. The bad news is, is that even on the same plant, some cucumbers will be better and some won't. And, you know, no one's exactly sure it's like the stress of growing, like how old they are, but your best bet is to cut off the ends and peel
+
+[30:04] it, and then wash it to get rid of the bitterness and you're going to be okay. Oh, we have a collar. Hello, caller. Hey, hello, how are you? Doing well. I had a question. I've been making a drink for a few, few, few years now into, uh, espresso open, uh,
+
+[30:20] Coca-Cola, and, uh, split just, uh, put it over ice. I played around with it a bunch. But the main thing is, the way I do it is I take
+
+[30:28] ice. I just took out espresso over the ice. Oh, okay, it doesn't matter. Uh, what happens is, uh, Coco, so, uh, stiffens up a lot. I wanted to know if you know why that would be. Jose, I'm having a lot of trouble hearing you because your cell phone, your cell phone's breaking up on
+
+[30:45] me. I heard what I was able to hear was espresso beverage and foam, but
+
+[30:51] what do you say? Do you put cocoa in it? Right, I make a beverage with espresso and Coca-Cola. Oh, Coca-Cola espresso. okay And the problem with the film as well? thickens up a lot. I wanted to know if you know why that would be. Yeah, so if you've ever carbonated coffee before, It's a nightmare in terms of foaming, it really foams up a lot, like a lot, lot. Um, and I've never done the research on why, but there's a, you know, you know, coffee has a lot of uh, espresso specifically has a lot of body to
+
+[31:23] it, and a lot of uh, emulsified oils in it, and it has a high uh, total dissolve, solid content, and it's known for holding a head, like a good espresso, right, has a crema on it.
+
+[31:33] So when you dump an espresso into a Coca-Cola and then try to uncap it, you're going to get like a serious head formation. I've had, I, you know, when I carbonate coffee beverages, I usually carbonate with
+
+[31:46] nitrous. It's not carbonating, but carbonate with nitrous, to add the creaminess back to the coffee
+
+[31:52] beverage. Like when I'm doing cold, like espresso-based cocktails, and they foam like the dickens. You just can't you can't get around it. I should have done more research moving on one. Honestly. That's my favorite part of the drink. Yeah, but it's a, if you're pouring it in, but when you're doing it in a bottle under pressure, it's a, it's a, it's hard to not have it spray all over the kitchen. It is delicious. I mean, you should try, you know, if you like that, if you do you have one of those ISI cream whippers where you are? I don't have one. Now, I've used them in the past in a lot of restaurants. I worked in. planning on getting one for the restaurant. I'm starting with how? Yeah, so just, you know, just for giggles, when you're not doing a Coca-Cola one, when you're doing a regular one, just try hitting a cold espresso beverage with a shot of
+
+[32:34] nitrous and you get a lot of that body and creaminess back that you get from a fresh shot, even more so, but it doesn't have the carbonation taste.
+
+[32:42] So the carbonation taste, like there's a Manhattan soda, called Manhattan soda, I think, that's really good, that is a carbonated coffee drink. But a lot of people, if they don't, they want that creaminess without the, and that foaminess, without the carbonation, you could try nitrous. And that, I've had good success with that. Great. All right, thank you. Thanks for calling in. My pleasure. Thank you. Let me see here. We got some more questions on the email. Okay, so Anthony Wong, who took our sous vide class, wrote in and said,
+
+[33:11] I mentioned that I use stainless steel pins for cooking a duck breast instead of scoring the skin. Now, a word he wants to know where he can get it, what kind? A word of background here, when you're cooking a duck breast, you want to cut most people will tell you you want to score the duck breast, you know, the skin side of
+
+[33:28] it so that when you render the skin, when you when you crisp up the skin, the fat's going to render out. Now, Nils Norin, you know, you know, my buddy, partner in crime, head of the French culinary culinary department, do test this practice because he says that where the scoring is, you're going to overcook the meat. But people who say who are pro scoring, say, well, they want more fat rendered out. So where, you know, where do you come down on this? Well, Chris Young, uh, chef, formerly the research chef at the Fat Duck Restaurant in, um, in, uh,
+
+[33:58] in, in England and uh, Nathan Mirvold, the uh, Microsoft billionaire, inventor of
+
+[34:03] PowerPoint and many other things. Um, you know, are coming out with, uh, you know, supposedly the, well, I suppose I've seen it. really good. You know, the greatest tech cookbook ever written. It's a huge magnum opus coming out at the end of the year. Um, they demonstrated a technique last year at Star Chefs where they said, well, what if you took a dog brush? And, you know, like you go, it's like a steel dog brush. Just go to a pet store, make sure you get one that's stainless steel, and it's got zillions of
+
+[34:30] little tiny stainless steel spines on it, and you just smack the duck breast with this dog brush a couple times, and it makes all these micro perforations in the skin, and they allow the fat to render out of the duck breast
+
+[34:43] without giving you enough area to overcook the meat that's underneath.
+
+[34:49] And you know what? We've tested it several times and it's a fantastic idea. So I think anyone that cooks duck breast on a regular, you know, regular basis needs to go by a dog brush. Please don't use the brush you've already used on your dog. That's gross. Go get a brand new dog brush. I think they're like $3 They're $4. You can give it any pet food store, pet store or, you know, pet supply mart, right? And uh, they do, they do, uh, they do wonders. So, uh, break time. All right, I've been told we're going to our next commercial break. So call your questions into 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. If you want to get down with a bar. This is the way you do it. Walk up and rap, too. Put your hand on the lower left. Come on, you go, yeah. It doesn't watch your rap, too. I mean, come on, like you should. Come on, would you? Come on. Yeah! Give me, say, give me your thing. What did she say? Give me what you say. Give them a thing, what to say. Jimmy what you say? Give them a thing. Get what you say. Feels so good. Let's get along, say it. Get it, let's say. Make it stone to the fight. Get him a thing. What you say? Give me, what you say? Give me the name. What you say? Baby. Got this. But I won't. Never forget Give me, give me thing, what do you say? Give me what to say. Give me a thing. Say. Give me what you say. Give me the thing Say, Baby, say, just move. Hey, excuse me. H Call it. Hey! Make me.
+
+[37:10] I need you, baby. What you say? Need you now? Hey, I don't care, hey, Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 and we have a caller. Hello, caller. on the air. Hi, hi, Dave, how are you? Hey. I had a question about steak. Oh, good. like steak. I'm a, I'm big fan of steak, especially uh, ribeyes and grass fed ribeyes. Nice. Uh, but sometimes, uh, when I've cooked the steak, there, sometimes there's this really hard sort of tendon that runs through
+
+[37:52] it and I'm not sure what the reason for that is or, or what to, what to do with those. Uh, I mean, the silver skin or the actual piece of connective tissue that is, uh, that little, I mean, that, that one little section on the upper part of the
+
+[38:04] muscle, that's, that's in one part of it, but not the other. There's not there's not a lot you can do about that. As far as I know, you have to kind of cut it out. I tend to trim it. I mean, one thing you can do. You can see it before you before you cook it, right? Um, and you can trim that out and then uh, and then reglue it back together with uh, transglutaminates. I can't remember what that's made out of. I mean, I don't think that's going to render even under long cooking. I could be wrong. I don't remember whether that does, but of course you're never going to cook that kind of meat long enough to render it in. I don't think short of removing it and gluing it back together, which I have done many
+
+[38:41] times. I don't know of a of a good way to get that done. Do you have access to meat glue? No, I don't, but I do have a circulator. Okay. Yeah, you know, the problem is this. So let's, okay, so for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, you know, in certain cuts of stake, like in, like, as you go along the, you know,
+
+[39:03] the, the rib steak, you'll see that there's certain ones that have these little, like, dots in the, in
+
+[39:07] the, in between the 2 muscle parts that are, you know, that don't, they can stay hard, basically. Now, the, there's an enzyme called transgutaminates, Activa, transgutaminates that will glue proteins together, and it's very simple to use. Problems you have to buy a whole bag of it. And I have a question on that actually came out on email and an answer in a minute. But they can rebond the meat together and I use it for taking out pieces of connective tissue and then gluing meat back together. And that's viable, but you know, you have to have the stuff lying around. The problem with circulators with that is that to render a piece, if it was connective tissue, which is going to get soft with long cooking, and I don't know that that's the case, at the
+
+[39:49] temperatures, you're going to want to cook a ribeye, which is roughly 55 degrees Celsius,
+
+[39:53] it would take several days to really break it down. And, um, you know, in the test that we've done with with rib eyes, you don't want to cook them more than about, um, you know,
+
+[40:05] you know, 6 hours. We've done one hours, 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours, 5 hours, 6 hours, 7 hours, 8 hours, 9 hours, 10 hours, and overnight on ribeyes, and
+
+[40:14] we like them best in the ribeyes, that is, in the 2 to 4 hour
+
+[40:21] range, and we like them okay, you know, up to about 6. At eight, we feel that they're, you know, starting to take on kind of a little bit of a squashy texture and
+
+[40:29] it gets fivery as you chew. And that long, long cooking on ribeye is not going to be necessarily so good for it.
+
+[40:36] So I don't know that you have a long cooking way of getting out of it. Hey, you know, you could do if you don't have meat glue, though. You can still cut out that portion that you don't like. And, uh, and then basically almost, you, I don't know what this is going to worry. You could try dusting it. I don't think gelatin's going to hold it together at the high temperature. I'm trying to think of something you can use other than, um, other than meat glue, because all you really want to have to do is bind it together. Do you have a vacuum sealer as well? Yeah I do. I mean, you could try sprinkling a little bit of salt and then some sort of gelatin. kind of melt when you do it, but if you vacuum it together, it's going to hold together while you cook
+
+[41:15] it and it'll probably hold together while you sear it, but then as you cut it on the plate,
+
+[41:19] obviously you're going to see that you've trimmed out a piece of the of the muscle, you know? Sorry, I couldn't be more helpful on this one. No, it just sounds like I have to get some transgluments. Yeah, you definitely you definitely do. You definitely do. Uh, well, uh, thanks for calling in. That leaves great into our next question from Matt, who says, um, he's been reading up on
+
+[41:39] translutaminates after seeing the Iron Chef episode where my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrayne, used it to make, uh, unfortunately not shrimp noodles, tilapia noodles, tilapia is, you know, not our favorite fish.
+
+[41:50] Anyway, he said that he really wants to start using it, but he has a couple questions. Do you know of a supplier who sells quantities smaller than the $90 bags online, which are one kilo? Uh, either an online supplier or brick and mortar store in Boston or New York. And the short answer is, no, I do not. It used to be that, um, and it might still be, for all I know, that if you call up, um,
+
+[42:10] Agina Moto, the company that makes it. It's Agina Moto makes transglutaminase enzyme, which is meat glue, the stuff that glues proteins together. You sprinkle it on like powdered sugar, and the meat she sticks together. It's great stuff. They make it, uh, a Ginomoto under Aji Foods USA makes it, and the brand name they use is
+
+[42:29] Activa. And the one that you want to get to start with is Activa RM. They used to give out like small 200 gram, I think, sample packs to chefs, but the chef community
+
+[42:41] is taken to it so much, they might no longer give out sample packs. And unfortunately, Igina Moto does not sell increments smaller than one kilo, and because they come packed direct from a
+
+[42:53] Ginamoto in one kilo packs, and not in like £50 sacks, the way that, um, the way
+
+[42:58] that, like, you know, most powders and hydrocolates come. Companies haven't been willing to break them down into smaller packs. And Genomoto hasn't been willing to make available for to pay for their sample packs. Now, if a Gino Moto just said, hey, look, we're going to quadruple the amount of sample packs we're going to make. And then just charge 3 times as much per pound. People would still buy it because people would rather to test, spend 15 bucks on 200 grams, uh,
+
+[43:24] then, um, then shelling off for a whole kilo if they don't know if they're going to use it over time, especially, yeah, they figure they're not going to use it before it goes bad. Now, we have toyed with the idea. cooking issues of making that enzyme available the same way we make Pectinex, Ultra
+
+[43:40] SPL and Pectinex smash, you know, the miracle pectin breaking down enzymes that make the world's greatest
+
+[43:45] French fry and the world's greatest juices. Um, but we decided against it because we didn't know that we wanted to get in the business of cutting open
+
+[43:54] that, uh, you know, retail pack and then repacking it and selling it. Maybe we should. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I have to figure out whether or not, whether or not it's a problem to do it or whether or not, you know, we're going to run into any issues with
+
+[44:08] it, um, but, you know, it would be useful to people. So I apologize that there is no way. But here's what here's what you should do. You should get together with some buddies. You should split a package of it. And then when you buy it, make sure that you cut it open, you instantly get all the air out and store it in the freezer, and it will last a
+
+[44:25] good long time in the freezer, like six, six, 8 months in the freezer. And you'll get good use out of it. So, I mean, it's definitely worth getting if you can split the bag with like, you know, 4 or 5 people, even more so. Um, but anyway, I'm sorry, I couldn't be more help with that. But then the 2nd part of the question is can meat glue be used with non-meat proteins. Can you do something interesting with nuts, for example? Well, I've never done anything with nuts, but it does make tofu firmer. And, you know, you can make, for instance, peanut tofu, but peanut tofu is very, very
+
+[44:53] soft, and it's very hard to get to hold together. So perhaps you could use, and this is perhaps because I've never done it. Perhaps you could use transgutaminates to help cross-link proteins in like a peanut curd, for example, and then make a more effective peanut tofu. Panto was a real pain in the butt. It really clogs things up. It's hard to get it to set up nicely. It's delicious when you get it right, though. So that's possible. So yeah, transgutaminous works on any protein like that works, like I say, I haven't tried nuts, but it works on cheese. You can glue things to cheese, works on egg yolk, thickens up egg yolk quite nicely, and you can glue things to egg yolks. We glue bacon to egg yolks, which is meat, but you could glue cheese to an egg yolk, I guess. Um, you know, any protein like that. I mean, the problem with slurry is if there's not enough protein and there's too much fat, like in a nut paste, then the protein doesn't have anything to bind onto, and it makes for very kind of weak bonds. And so in certain situations, it tends to act more as a thickener than as
+
+[45:51] a, you know, a gluing agent. They also have one for dairy that's used for yogurt to make yogurt set up better, but is used by, you know, like Johnny Yazini to make ricotta dumplings or gnocchi, rather. So yes, it will bond any anyone or it will, it will be active on any one of those, um, on any one of those proteins. There's a lot of there's a lot of things yet to be done with it. Wiley, my brother-in-law, Wiley, Defrain. He has a very, very interesting application. Unfortunately, it's meat because it uses gelatin, but basically he uses transgutaminates to cross-link gelatin so that it doesn't melt anymore, and he makes sheets out of vegetables, like pasta, and then lets it set overnight with the
+
+[46:30] transglutaminates, and once the gelatin sets up in cross-links, it no longer melts, but stays
+
+[46:35] flexible like a noodle. And these things can be fried into crisps or used as pasta. It's fantastic technique. You can look for it on the internet. That one you want to use the Activa, there's a special one called TI that's just the enzyme. It doesn't have the most of the ones we use have casing or added gelatin in it. You want to make sure you use the one that's just straight enzyme for that technique, but hopefully that's
+
+[46:55] helpful and I wish you luck in your in your translutaminase journeys. I have another question from Ray in DC. Hi, Ray. And he likes our show, which is nice. Thank you. And a friend of his went to a place called PX in Alexandria,
+
+[47:14] Virginia, and he said they had a drink that was made with tobacco, tobacco and they drink tobacco infused, and he thinks it's made with bourbon. Well, that place PX is the guy there's a guy named Todd Thrasher, and for a number of years now, I think, 3 or four. He's been well known for infusing cocktail cocktails with tobacco. Um, and I forget, I saw him interviewed on it once and it was, uh, something about like his childhood memories. I think he grew up maybe near a tobacco farm. Anyway, it has a lot of childhood memories for him, the smell of tobacco. I believe he does not infuse the tobacco into the bourbon. He infuses it into, I believe, water, and then adds the tobacco,
+
+[47:54] water, as a syrup to the bourbon. That's, I think how he does it. But I'm not sure, because I don't think he publishes his recipe. Now, the 2nd part of that question was, what do you think about the health effects of that, well, it's definitely, probably, you know, ingesting it that way is definitely, you know, less harmful than, um, than smoking it,
+
+[48:16] uh, because, you know, a lot of the harmful products and tobacco come from combustion of tobacco. But it's not risk free, obviously. You know, I don't know what the long-term effects of ingestion are, you know, but nicotine by itself has, you know, effects on
+
+[48:31] your cardiovascular system. You know, if you ingested huge amounts of it. For any of you have ever tried dipping tobacco, you know, uh, like, you know, the stuff dip that you put in your lip and have accidentally swallowed the juices, you know that concentrated tobacco juices,
+
+[48:47] uh, you know, make throw up like a demon. At least they make me throw up like a demon. Apparently, if you dip all day, every day. You can start swallowing the juices without spitting and not vomit. But the one time I was in my buddy Charlie's room when I was in high school and he gave me some
+
+[49:00] dip and then he said, why aren't you spitting? And I said, you need to spit, and 30 seconds later, his entire room was coated with my lunch. Like, uh, you know, from now on in, I was like, large concentrations of tobacco juice, don't sit well,
+
+[49:12] literally in your stomach. And so, uh, you know, I doubt he's putting enough tobacco in to have that kind of effect, which means he's probably putting a very small amount in, which means
+
+[49:21] any health effect is probably small. Uh, you know, especially because how many are you drinking? I don't know. What do you think, Stasi? I don't like tobacco. No, all right. So I hope that hope that answers your question. And Ray also says that he's been infusing vodka using our infusion
+
+[49:37] technique and we appreciate. We appreciate it. Thank you for your question. Now, Curtis wrote in and he said, regarding freezing and enzymes, because we were talking about that earlier, then this is like live email. crazy. I have found that pork tenderloin is much more tender when frozen than thought as compared with fresh. Well, I haven't done the test myself, but that's entirely possible. If you slow freeze a piece of meat. What happens is as you're freezing it, water is drawn out of the tissue and forms ice crystals. The slower that it's frozen, the bigger the ice crystals are. And they can have a tendency to not only puncture the
+
+[50:11] meat cells. So when you thaw, you get lost, but also those big ones are harder to reabsorb back into the meat tissue as it thaws.
+
+[50:20] So when you're freezing something, it's think of it as a partial dehydration, and when you're thawing it, the meat is reabsorbing that liquid. Now, the more something drips liquid when it's thawed, the more damage you've done to the meat. Now, that damage, though, it's possible. I haven't studied it, but it's possible that that actually could make it more
+
+[50:39] tender as long as you're not cooking it to the point where it's going to dry out again. So it's entirely, uh, oh, and also, it's entirely possible, as you say in your question, that the, uh, that the proteolytic enzymes uh, present in the meat uh, kick into overdrive as they're
+
+[50:57] thawed. But I don't know that information off the top of my head. I'm going to have to do some research. So, Stasi, if you want to rejot this question down, I'll try and look
+
+[51:07] for I'll try and look for freeze thaw tenderizing in the scientific literature over the course of the week. It's an interesting question. I hadn't thought of it, but it's probably, you know, the effect, um, which, again, I haven't tested, is probably a multi, like a
+
+[51:21] multifactorial thing I'm a jig, right? Anywho. All right, so we were trying to call our good buddy, Mark Ladner, for this next question. Mark Ladner is a chef at Del Posto and a tall man. How tall is Mark Ladder? 610? 610? crazy? He's like 6465. So he's tall. He's tall. Anyway, this will make sense the next question. So, um, Steve writes in and said, uh, a friend whose name is uh, Colleen, right? is a tall woman. She is 6 foot seven. It's tall Yeah, just under 6 foot seven, actually, 6 foot six, short. Yeah. Not even 6 foot seven. No. So she's 6 foot, basically 6 foot seven. She loves to cook, but she gets terrible back pains when working in the kitchen, particularly when preparing food. And so they have a, you know, you know, the standard countertops are 36 inches high and is, you know, inadequate for her. They did some calculations. And they figured that the average countertop is built for someone who's
+
+[52:22] five, four to five, five. They think it's based on kind of, you know, like the average World War 2 era housewife is that, and
+
+[52:30] that, so they constructed a butcher block that's 13 inches, 13.5
+
+[52:35] inches high, you know, a table that fits on top of the countertop that she can do her cutting on. But, and she loves it. And you can look on the internets. There's pictures of her using it and she enjoys it. But she's enrolling in a culinary school. And the question is, what can be done for a very tall cook? Does she have to bend over or can she bring something like her modified butcher block
+
+[52:57] with her to school or are there other approaches? Well, that's an interesting question. First of all, I don't know that 65, 64 is actually, I mean, I haven't read, I'm sure you've read the studies. I haven't. I'm 510, and I like countertop heights a lot. Um, when they're even like a couple inches taller. Like, let's say like they were 5 inches taller for me. I get fatigued because of the way that I'm used to cooking. So a lot of how you, a lot of, of what's happening with your, with your back and working at a countertop has to do with how you position yourself at the counter, like what your stance is and where
+
+[53:33] your, where your wrist and your arm is. So, I'm used to working at 36. So when you go lower or you go higher, like I get I get totally messed up, right? Um, now, but that's because I'm used to that. Now, I stood on a stool that made me as tall as Colleen,
+
+[53:52] right? And indeed, my arms, I could not get a comfortable stance. no matter how I tried. Now, of course, I'm sure Colleen's arms were longer than mine. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, you know, so I don't know whether it's 100%, you know, accurate, but I can see the definite need for someone that height to increase the
+
+[54:09] height of their countertop. Now, Here's the problem. If you're going to a cooking school, I think what what you're going to do depends entirely on why you're going to cooking school and what kind of cooking school you're going
+
+[54:20] to. If you, um, I was had this discussion, my wife's an architect, and I was having this discussion with her last night after this question came in. Well, for instance, would a workplace be required to allow you to bring something
+
+[54:34] in, um, because of your height? Could you, for instance, go in? And obviously, I'm not saying being tall is a disability. you know, I wish I was tall. You know what I mean? But like, in other words, we have in the US, we have the American Disabilities Act, and you have to make the workplace with the exception of a couple jobs, like airline, you know, a flight
+
+[54:54] attendant and whatnot, safety jobs like that. You have to make the workplace accessible to anyone based on something that's classified as a disability, but I don't know
+
+[55:02] that I don't know that you would classify being too tall for the countertops as something that a workplace would necessarily have to make compensation for.
+
+[55:12] But I don't know. It's a very interesting question. Um, Now, if you're going to cooking school and you're not interested in working in a pro kitchen, you know, for years and years, then by all means, I would say, you know, ask them,
+
+[55:26] let let let you bring it in and use it. You know, there's no reason to break your back. But if you're going to be working in professional kitchens for, you know, a long, long time, you know, I
+
+[55:38] would I would recommend at least trying to figure out some way to modify
+
+[55:42] your your stance or modify something or maybe use like a weightlifting belt or something that can help support your
+
+[55:48] back. I don't know whether that's help because my, you know, I was talking to my wife, again, architect and designer. And she's like, there's 2 choices. Modify your environment or modify yourself. And what this boils down to is, I don't know if you're going to be able to modify your environment if you're going to go out into the professional cooking environment.
+
+[56:03] If you can't modify your environment, then the only thing left is modify yourself. And that could be with supports for your back or, you know, Alton Brown is apparently very tall. And he designed these knives that have like a bend in the handle so that he doesn't have to bring his wrist all the way down to do the chopping.
+
+[56:21] Now, for me, they're goofy because, you know, I'm short. You know, I'm 510 and so regular knives were great, but, you know, I don't know whether she's tried these knives with the bend in the handle that are designed specifically for tall people and to make up for the, um, the difference in
+
+[56:37] heightened countertops. So it's an interesting question. I don't have a resolution. Um, what do you think, Zadi? I think, I don't know. Well, but then I told you about the other part where we knew the guy who was really tiny. Well, he still works in a professional kitchen. That's easier to modify, I think. No, a stool. Yeah, or something. But again, it's a very interesting question and I wish, you know, I'm going to get in touch with some cooks who are very, very tall and some cooks who are not so
+
+[57:09] tall. And, you know, you know, very untall. And we will, and we'll try to figure out what the, what the answer is, because I think it's, I think it's super interesting. But the long story short, if you're not going to go pro into a professional
+
+[57:22] kitchen. And by the way, I never think any professional kitchen should discriminate against anyone for any reason. obviously, but I'm just saying like, what can you realistically expect to happen when you go to a
+
+[57:33] kitchen? That's the real question. It's not what they should do. We all know what my stepfather said. should, you know, I can't give it to the wells course. But like, it's not what they should do. It's what they will do, is what you need to worry about. But if you're not in it to go pro. Um, you know, I think a long talk with a cooking school, uh, I'm sure they would like to have her money. So I'm sure they will make some accommodation. Am I wrong about this? I mean, I don't see it as being that disruptive to the class. And then she has her own station and everything. Yeah, I mean, it's not like, you know, she's saying, hey, I need to listen to loud music while I cook or I can't learn, you know, which would be
+
+[58:06] disruptive to the rest of the class. So, you know, I don't see why they wouldn't. But anyway, hopefully this is helpful and you've raised definitely an interesting question that I will be thinking more
+
+[58:13] about it. I love ergonomics and design. So I'll think more about this problem. And thank you all for listening to cooking issues. This year, this week's cooking issues brought to you by Whole Foods Market and the craft beer week cooking issues. Thanks so much. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of 10, when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and
+
+[0:15] their customers that barter house tries the culture and cultivate, I think are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take an allocation of an 80 case made
+
+[0:27] wine, that they've got something special. And it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in. And, you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth degree, like we're not making
+
+[0:39] 100,000 cases of Pinot Grigio and, you know, flogging them all over New York, but the customers that get wine from us are kind of believing the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young winemakers who have a passion for doing it.
+
+[0:54] And we supply them with a market, and we allow them to get their product out there to otherwise an untapped group of people.
+
+[1:09] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. I don't know where I'm at. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with all your cooking questions. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, the driver of the technological bus. All right. Call in all your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. will be here for about the next 45 minutes. Natasha, here we already have a color, yeah? Yeah we do. Nice. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hello, this is Obi. all the way out in Tucson, Arizona. Nice. Um, a couple of questions. I've got a CVAP. I'm a chef, and we got a CVAP in our kitchen not too long ago. Um, and we've done a couple things, a couple cool things with it. Did kind of, uh, you know, we did a 48 hour short rib just the other day and it turned out really,
+
+[2:16] really good. In the bag or not in the bag? In a bag in a Ziploc, you know, with just a little bit of a little bit of stock. And it turned out amazing. It was, it was kind of weird because, um, the temperature does shift in
+
+[2:31] them, what I had to do, what I have a, um, I can't remember what model is it's a 550 500 something. Yeah, I don't know him by model number anyway. I just know by looking at them. Yeah, well, it's, I, the, the thing I had to do was to keep it on, um, keep it on the load cycle. Like not actually even press cook. And it kept the temperature more steady. But, um, and I, it kept it around between 34, uh, 136 degrees. And, uh, they came out really, really good. But my question was, I mean, I'm sure you've messed with them a lot, and I was just wondering if there was any other cool things that,
+
+[3:10] that, uh, that you guys had done with them. Okay, well. Well, just before we get into it, for those who don't know what a CVAP is, for our listeners, a CVAP, is a type of oven originally designed to hold actually Kentucky fried
+
+[3:23] chicken. It was invented by a guy by the name of Winston, actually for Kentucky fried chicken. He was friends with Colonel Sanders, and they built this thing. It's basically a Bain Marie in the bottom of a holding oven, and you adjust the water temperature of the Bain Marie
+
+[3:36] in the temperature of the oven separately, and you can adjust the humidity in there and you can keep things, you know, nicely for a really, really long time.
+
+[3:42] When the sous vide crackdown happened in the New York City with the health department about 4 or 5 years ago, CVAPs all of a sudden became very, very popular because chefs could use them to do low temperature cooking, very
+
+[3:54] accurate low temperature cooking with fish. And so, and here's where I get in, that's just the background. Here's where I get into your actual question. A lot of chefs here in New York retrofitted CVAPs into their kitchens because either they couldn't afford a combi oven right away, or they couldn't retrofit because
+
+[4:10] the venting requirements of a combi oven, see that ovens are a lot less expensive than a combi
+
+[4:15] oven, and they don't require venting or drains, and they take up a lot less power. And they're fairly accurate, actually, um, I don't know what's going on with yours, but Nathan Mirvold and Chris Young, who are coming out with the Uber Tech book at the end of this year, have done independent tests on CVAPs, and they hold about 2 degrees, plus or -2 degrees
+
+[4:32] accuracy over the long haul. And I think they're slightly better now than they used to be. It depends a lot on temperature and the size of the oven you're using. Smaller ovens, obviously, more accurate, or not obviously, but they are. And uh, the, uh, so one thing I really recommend you try out there is fish, not in the bag. So you can do really quick work with fish. You know, you set the temperature 10, 15 degrees higher than you want the fish to go, and, you know, depending on the size of the portion, you're looking at like a 10 to 12 minute cook time in the
+
+[4:59] CVAP, and a lot of chefs in New York move to this because they're not allowed to cook fish in the
+
+[5:03] bag. So the CVAP is very, very good at low temperature work, direct service, low temperature work, not in the bag. The one thing you have to worry is when you open and close it a lot, it starts sucking a little bit of
+
+[5:13] wind and you're going to have to increase your cook times a little bit. You know, it's also good for hamburgers, anything like that that you want to keep. Now, I don't really like this. Yeah, we did hamburgers. Hamburgers were great. Hamburgers were awesome. I mean, you have to post sear them because things lose the texture on the outside in a CVAP after they was sitting there a while. But Howard Richardson, who's the guy at the company that you're going to want to talk to if you have any problems. He's the rep. His favorite demo in, you know, when he goes out to the NRA, the natural restaurant show, not the National Rifle Association show, is to hold tortilla chips in him, because you can use
+
+[5:45] him actually with in very low humidity circumstances to keep stuff hot without drying out. It's completely counterintuitive that you could have a water bath in the bottom of something and hold tortilla chips in it. Yeah, they were talking about when I 1st bought it, they were talking about how good steam is like dry steam or something. Well, yeah, it's not this dry steam is really just hot steam, so it's not, see, not, this is, it's different. It's literally setting the humidity level, but I plan on doing a lot on CVAPs in our next installment of the low temperature primer if I ever write it, nostasia's rolling her eyes at me right
+
+[6:13] now because I've been very far behind, but I guess we'll be coming back. We came up with a beautiful prime rib. I mean, we've been trying. I don't know how many prime ribs I've put through it, and we came up with a formula that produces an awesome prime rib. Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's fantastic and those kind of things are very economical to run. But, you know, what you should do? phoning with some more specific ones next week. I'm going to think more about specific CVAPs. I think more about recipes, but it's definitely a very important piece of equipment. It's becoming very, very popular. Thanks so much for your call. We have another call around? Hello, you're on the air. Hi, this is Corbin from San Diego. Hey, Corbin, how you doing? Good. So I recently had an opportunity to pick up a used VWR circulator from a university surplus
+
+[6:59] auction. I got it real cheap. There's only like $50, but now I'm trying to figure out how to sterilize it, clean it, and go through it and make sure all the key components are still working. Do you have any recommendations?
+
+[7:11] Yeah, do you know what kind of lab it was in? Um, I don't. They don't have any information like that. Okay. Um, so most like, did it have a lot of oil deposits on it or no? It's pretty clean, but the coils have a little bit of like calcium deposits on it, but other than that, not
+
+[7:29] too bad. Okay, so it was probably used in water as opposed to in oil. It's a lot easier to clean that way. Uh, I would suggest um, spraying everything with a fairly concentrated bleach solution. And then letting that bleach solution soak into the coils. You want to make sure for 1st you actually you should go over with a toothbrush and get all of the actual deposits. Any deposit that's on the uh, uh, on the circulator itself is going to harbor uh, evil things even after it's been soaked in bleach, right? So the 1st thing you want to do is get off any sort of deposits. Then you're going to want to circulate in it like a CLR tablet, which is going, you know, the calcium lime rust remover, and that's going to get rid of the calcium deposits. And then after that, I would soak it for a while in a fairly concentrated bleach
+
+[8:16] solution. And that's going to kill anything that remains from a biological standpoint. I would wipe down the entire surface of the piece of equipment with bleach. Uh, you know, try not to, you know, don't have it plugged in, duh. And then, you know, from there on out after she dries, and if you want, you can circulate it, you know, up to boiling, be darn sure. But at that point you should have killed everything. Now. How long the circular is going to last, depends on how long it was run and what kind of care they took in it, right? The older circulators have a problem with the bearing. The bearings on them tend to go bad. If she starts to squeak and squeal on you, then you can put some WD. I wouldn't put WD40 actually because, you know, it's not food great. But if you put a food grade lubricant on the bearing, you'll extend the life cycle by a couple of
+
+[8:59] months, probably, of hard usage. I mean, restaurant style usage. I would also open up the circulator. Are you good with electricity or no? I'm pretty good. Okay, open up the back of the circulator. All of the old circulators have a lot of contact points with spade terminals in them to make electrical connections on the inside of the unit. I would take a file and I would file them clean. They become resistors because they get water vapor, they corrode. When they corrode, they become resistors and you lose, you know, basically you start generating heat there. And I've seen a lot of circulators fail that way. So I would go to all the internal connections, and I would just make sure they're good and clean, and that's going to extend the life of the circulator, another good long, good long chunk of time.
+
+[9:38] So the 1st thing to usually go is the bearings on the old ones and the 2nd thing is usually the electrical connections. I've had occasional ones, not with VWRs, but certain Lauda
+
+[9:49] ones, used to have problems with their Triax blowing, in which case you need to then be able to replace the Triac, which is a little more challenging than other things, but still possible. But that's in general what dies on them. Is that is that a good roadmap for you? Yeah, that's great. what I was looking for. Super right into the blog and tell us how it worked. I'm always curious about these kind of things. Thanks so much for your call. Okay, thank you. We have one more? Yeah. No, wait, let's take a break. I think Jack is saying. Oh, we got to take a brother? With the person been waiting. All right, all right. Well, take a break. We'll be back with cooking issues. How you feel, brother? You're feeling good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. people to know you're in here. How you feel, Bella? Hey, jam! Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[11:05] All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.
+
+[11:17] Brother? Yeah. Now I want everybody. Let red blow my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Your James Horn on me. Fred, can you take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! Man!
+
+[11:49] Welcome back to Cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. Today, brought to you by the Barter House. They poured us a nice wine. Jules, which is a Sarag Ganache, and I have no idea where it's from. Call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. And as I feared, Nastasia, we lost our caller over the phone during the break. Uh, and uh, one more thing, I have a shout out to the best device ever built. We're in a studio that's in basically a working farm in the middle of Brooklyn. So we have a fly problem here, right? Nastasia in the studio, and they've bought these electric fly rackets, which are about the greatest things I think ever invented, no? It's the greatest thing ever. It's like, I don't know, it's just so satisfying. It's like, I'm going to kill a fly, see whether you can hear it on. Now we'll try later. Anyway, because I have too many questions to get to to meander about with electric flash water problems. Okay, red rights in. He says, Dave, I need a recipe for bone in chicken thighs or legs, time and temperature when you're cooking low temperature. Now, for those of you, I don't know, who don't know me or don't know what we do. Low temperature cooking is one of the most important, uh, new, want to say new, like past 10 years, kind of ways to cook in, uh, in professional kitchens and increasingly in home kitchens. You can now go into Williams and Sonoma, Williams and Sonoma. William Sonoma, and buy an immersion circulator, which is kind of the best piece of equipment to start doing this kind of work
+
+[13:10] with, and do it. Now, the problem is, is that when you put something like chicken and you cook it low temperature. But you want to want to cook chicken legs around 64 or 65 degrees
+
+[13:20] Celsius, in my opinion, right in that range. I wouldn't do 63. I wouldn't even really do 64 for lies thighs and legs. I would do, uh, I would do 65 Celsius. I apologize for not knowing what that is in Fahrenheit, but you know, use Google. Here's the main problem. You don't want to do a bone in chicken thigh or leg in a vacuum or a very high vacuum. Here's the reason why. The inside of bones, chicken bones, even particularly, are hollow, and they have in them a red kind of gunk on the inside.
+
+[13:51] When you suck a vacuum on these things, what happens is that red gunk is pulled out of the
+
+[13:56] bones and goes along the meat near the bone, and then that meat becomes permanently red, okay? Uh, and nobody likes to eat permanently red, uh, chicken meat. They just don't they don't like it. They say, it's not cooked, it's not cooked. As a test, I have made it where I've cooked it for a long time at, you know, at these temperatures that I know are cooked. The texture is cooked. You have people close their eyes, they like it. They look at it and they just won't put it in their mouth. And this is, you know, trained people. This is like my family and friends. So you really want to be sure not to suck too high a vacuum. The other problem is if you cook very slowly in one of these, in these situations, you might still get this phenomenon, what we call persistent pinking. If that happens to you, you're going to have to cook it faster, which means jacking the temperature up a little bit, maybe to like
+
+[14:38] 70 and then only cooking it for like 30, 35 minutes. I do mine at 65, uh, 64 or 65 Celsius for about 45 minutes if they're thin pieces. You don't want to have them all blumped together because you want the heat to penetrate rather quickly. You don't want them to take a long time to get up to temperature because then you're going to have more problems with the
+
+[14:56] red not going away and it's staying red. So, you know, if you have a problem with the red not going away, I recommend just boning them, getting them to go flat, and then you can cook them very fairly
+
+[15:06] quickly and you won't have that problem. I hope that answers your question red and good luck with the chicken. Nastasia just pointed out that the electric fly swatter, which I promised I wouldn't talk about anymore, is also a lizard killer, although that seems rather
+
+[15:18] gruesome. So gruesome. Anyway, okay. So, we have a call, uh, sorry, a, um, uh, what's it called? Email. Yeah, a question from Nathan says, so there's a lot of low temp and vacuum questions having to do with
+
+[15:31] meat when it's true. There's a lot of like in protein questions. And he has a vegetable question. When he roast beets, he can never seem to get them to be uniformly cooked. One side is too crispy. The other side is too hard, presumably undercooked, and the whole thing dries out. He tries wrapping it in foil, olive oil, et cetera, et cetera. Ovens at 350, ovens at 400. It all a big. It all a big nightmare for Nathan, the beats. Well, this is an excellent application of low temperature cooking. What happens when you put, and specifically sous vide, although you could probably do it in a ziploc. What happens, the whole advantage of putting something in a bag, right? Is that nothing gets in and nothing gets out, right? So you're not leeching flavors out and you're also not evaporating much moisture off the surface of your
+
+[16:10] of your product, right? And also, it's different from putting it into water where then the water or whatever cooking medium you're using is actually leeching into the product, right? So, um, what it basically is like, is it's like roasting, even though you're doing it in water in a
+
+[16:26] bag. It's like roasting in the sense that you're not, um, you're not, you know, inside of a poaching
+
+[16:32] liquid, but, uh, on the other hand, it doesn't get those those roasted flavors. Like, it's not going to get dehydrate on the outside. not going to get those brown flavors. So what I would recommend for a beat is I would I would peel it unlike you do. I think the reason you don't peel it when you put it into an oven is you don't want it to bleed out into your oven and you also don't want it to lose a lot of moisture. And so the skin is preventing that kind of moisture loss. When you're on the, if you heard that pop in the background, that was nastasia killing a fly with the electric fly zapper. So when you have it in the bag, right, you're preventing that kind of moisture loss. So I go ahead and peel it beforehand because inside the bag, I think you're going to have a tendency for the earthy notes on the skin to kind of get into the whole
+
+[17:08] beat, and I don't think you're going to want that very much. So I would peel it, put it in the bag. You could put any kind of fat in it you want, even up to, you know, no fat at all, but I would put a little fat
+
+[17:16] in, uh, some sort of, you know, either solid or liquid neutral fat. I wouldn't use olive oil. It tends to flavor in like the good quality olive oil that I like for finishing. I don't really like so much when you cook in the bag. And then you can just simmer it in a pot in a pot of water. Now, the thing is, is that unlike, it's not like boiling a vegetable. The times are closer to roasting because there's not a lot of excess water inside the bag to break down the vegetable.
+
+[17:37] That's the whole benefit because it's like roasting, okay? So what you're going to have to do is you're going to have to cook these vegetables simmering in the pot for as long as you would have to basically roast it, sometimes even longer, okay? And so you want to keep it in and keep testing it by pinching with your fingers and seeing
+
+[17:50] when it's done. Make sure the sides of the bag don't hit the um, the side of your pot. If they do, um, you're going to be in trouble. It's going to probably, it might has a possibility it's going to melt the bag where it touches the edge of the pot, if flame is looking over the side of the pot. But it's a fantastic technique. Just remember, it's going to take a good long time to do. So be patient. The other good news is it's not going to really overcook on the inside of the bag too much. The timing is not so critical. Just let it go basically as long as you want. Pull it out. And then if you want some of those caramelized roasted flavors, throw some oil in the bottom of a pan and throw it into like a 450 or 500 degree oven just to throw some color onto the outside of your
+
+[18:25] beat, some roasted flavor, and you're good to go. It's actually an excellent application. Carrots, similarly, good, all these kind of root vegetables and things that can be
+
+[18:33] roasted are great inside of a vacuum bag and it really keeps a bright preserved flavor, not preserved in the preserved sense, but it preserves
+
+[18:40] a bright, clean, pure vegetable flavors that a lot of us love.
+
+[18:43] So thanks so much for that question, because we definitely should not overlook vegetable cookery. And when you're doing low temperature. Okay. Now, Brian calls in, uh, and he said, he just received a Noma cookbook, and there's a recipe
+
+[18:56] for milk skin where you add milk protein and milk, uh, and cream in a
+
+[19:02] pot, and then heat it. And then you have to take this, the skins off kind of like what happens in your coffee. And he says the instructions say it's advisable to 1st remove
+
+[19:10] the few skins that form is they will be fragile, and subsequent skins will become more and more resilient. And, uh, Brian wants to know what's causing this and, uh, et cetera, et cetera. And can't he just leave the uh, the, the thing to form longer to form a thicker skin before he pulls it off and can he do that instead of removing the 1st
+
+[19:28] few? No. So this is actually a complicated question. And it's one that I'm been interested in actually in a long time, although not in the form of milk
+
+[19:37] skins in the form of Yuba. So I'm going to talk about Yuba and milk skins and cream skins, and how they're made and kind of what goes on. So I'm going to start with Yuba. Yuba is basically, uh, you heat soy milk in a wide shallow pan, and a skin forms on the top, and then you pull the skin off, and you dry it a certain amount, and that's
+
+[19:59] Yuba, or bean, uh, bean curd skin. And this stuff is, I think, delicious. And, you know, I make it at home. I think it's incredibly delicious. And what it is, is, is that you need, and the same thing happens with milk and cream, if you add milk protein as well, the same exact
+
+[20:15] phenomena is happening. You have a large surface area. You're heating it underneath. The heat needs to be above 60 Celsius. In practice, you want to get it up higher, up near like 80, 90 Celsius just under the boil. You don't want it to boil because then you're going to have problems with boil over and with gas bubbling and you're going to hurt the surface of your skin because the top of
+
+[20:35] the the top of the of the milk or soy milk needs to be relatively placid for a good skid to form. So you heat it. You're partially denaturing the proteins, you know, the milk, either the soy or the milk proteins, and they're kind of floating up to the surface where they get concentrated, they aggregate onto fat droplets that are on the
+
+[20:53] surface, and then all of a sudden as they start evaporating, as they lose moisture, because it's heat and you have evaporative cooling coming off the top, they form a
+
+[21:00] skin, and that skin bonds together, polymerizes and forms a permanent
+
+[21:04] film. In the case of soy milk, it forms Yuba, which is a bean curd skin. In the case of milk, it forms a milk skin.
+
+[21:12] Now, most of the time, this is a nuisance to us when we're, you know, in our cup of coffee or we're heating milk or something like that.
+
+[21:17] And so you try to prevent it either by putting a, you know, a foam or a froth on top, keeping the lid covered so that it
+
+[21:23] can't, so that moisture can't evaporate or, you know, putting some sort of film over the top. But there are a couple of old cases where this is actually done on purpose. So there's something called cabbage cream where you would take very cream heavy milk and you would lift, you would lift sheets of it off and then layer it with more cream. It's like an old Elizabethan dessert, you can read about it and herald McGee. There's very few kind of references to it online. But Yuba is really the one that's used most often. Now the problem is, is that it's actually a complicated phenomenon. It requires different protein concentrations and fat concentrations. So what happens is, is the 1st couple of ones that solidify are very delicate. They're also higher in protein, uh, and they have a different composition of proteins as you remove that. The actual chemical composition of the rest of the batch is altered somewhat. And so in Yuba, as in milk skin making, the 1st couple are very fragile, and in Yuba, actually, those 1st couple are considered the highest grade. They have the least flavor, and they're the most delicate, right? As you go in and in, you've depleted some of the protein and fat. And so the Yuba becomes, or I guess milk skin, although I haven't done as much with milk skin, becomes higher and higher in sugar, and they also become thicker and thicker, right? Because the sugar is in milk. So from Yuba, you start with a relatively bland, tasteless, high protein with fat, you know, skin forming on top. And by the end, you have much thicker, not as strong red and sweet Yuba, which I actually like a lot. So like as you take each successive skin off because you're changing the actual makeup of the leftover milk, the Yuba itself changes. So it's not enough to just sit and wait for the skin to go longer. You actually want to remove the 1st couple if that's what the chef wants. And maybe you could use them for something else. And then, you know, go from there. If you're interested in making milkskin, I guess, read the Noma book, although I don't have it. If you're interested in Yuba or any form of tofu, which I highly recommend you make at home. Once you start making tofu or go to really high grade shop, if you make it yourself, you're not going to want to go back to the crap that's in
+
+[23:18] the supermarket. like real tofu, I think, has a flavor, you can control it. I love it. It's fantastic stuff. And when you make it, you just want to eat it, you know, by itself. You don't want to ruin it and, you know, you don't want to turn it into some sort of fake turkey or some sort of BS crap, you know, fake meat,
+
+[23:33] analog, junk. You just want eat it for what it is. Tofu gets a bad name because it's misused and the stuff that we buy has been soaked in so much water that there's absolutely 0 flavor of the
+
+[23:43] actual, you know, being left and there's just kind of no subtlety to it. You know, you can, when you make your own, you can control the texture from almost like a cloud
+
+[23:51] tofu that you can put into soups, it hasn't been pressed at all, all the way down to firm tofu, you get the ocara
+
+[23:56] leftover, which is the, which is the pulp from the, from the soy, which you can mix into, you know, muffins or pancakes.
+
+[24:01] You get the soy milk, which you can make Yuba from if you want. I mean, it's just incredibly amazing versatile product that is really fun to work with at
+
+[24:09] home, but it's a mess. So if your spouse is, you know, make them leave, if they don't like messes. alternatively have them help you if they like to cook. So the, so what you need to buy is go out and buy a book called The Book of Tofu, by a guy named William
+
+[24:24] Shirtleaf, out of California, he has like the Soy Institute. He himself is kind of a nut. Well, I shouldn't say it for me, kind of a nut job. He believes he's going to say, God bless him, I hope he does. Save the world through inexpensive vegetable and soy proteins. He and his wife, what's her name? I forget her name. Anyway, they have this Soy Institute, and it's his books are amazing. Don't buy the small abridged ones by the big ones because they haven't been chopped up and the information is there, but the book of
+
+[24:51] tofu is one of the all-time great reads on how to make tofu. Don't call him on the phone and ask him whether you can make tofu from edamame because he's like, why would you waste edamame by making tofu out of it? Don't do it. I did it. It was a mistake. I got a stern talking to by the man. But I highly respect I highly respect his work. And you can then use what he says about tofu and make all sorts of other curds as well. You can make peanut curds, although they're really like tofu out of peanuts, although and probably also peanut skins, the same way you make edamame skins. But it's more difficult because the fat content is higher. So you might need to dope up with protein or else use transbutaminates, a.k.a. meat glue, the chef's friends, which we've spoken about here, you know, on several occasions. You can look at the blog, cooking issues, get more information on meat glue, but I'm sure you can make a peanut skin by adding a little
+
+[25:37] transgutaminates. So I hope this answers your milk skin questions and we're going to take another break and come back with cooking issues radio. Call your questions in 2 718-497-2128 718-4972128.
+
+[25:56] Give up the name of all the band. You know what? When I hear groove like this, boo. Oh, say, I got to get... Yeah, baby. Yeah, yeah. Like whale, young, man. Man, man, man. Look at you. Some kind of groove like this. You know? You know? No. I
+
+[26:33] need the grit. Got the grip, got, get, got, get.
+
+[26:41] job, job, job. Need to get down. Got bit in the bread. You know, I believe, eh, every time. Brother I'm getting ready to wave y'all in, you know what? Feel so down. I need to get down in order for me to get down. I got to get in deep. Welcome back to Cooking Issues Radio on the Heritage Radio Network brought to you today by the Barterhouse. Call your questions into 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[27:14] So I almost missed it, but Brian had a 2nd part of his question. It's actually probably interesting for some of our listeners. He's training in New Zealand. Land of legal distilling, by the way. Thank goodness for New Zealand and its legal distillation laws. May we all have your laws someday. He said he's thinking of either going to Australia or the United States to work in restaurants afterwards. He's interested in restaurants here in the in the states like townhouse in Virginia, WD 50 in New
+
+[27:41] York, or Modo or Linea, in Chicago, and wants to know the best way to get into it. Now, he's about to stage at a, you know, kind of a very modern, you know, modern cuisine restaurant called Attica in
+
+[27:50] Melbourne and wants to know how to get to these other restaurants. The short answer is that if you are willing to work for free in
+
+[27:58] a stage, you can come work in almost any of these restaurants if you set it up far enough in advance and they have space. The best thing to do, if you're staging at, you know, well-known restaurant like Attica, is to, because all, you know, all these chefs basically know each other. Like everyone who's in this kind of business, they they know the people that are in their same circle, same group. And they all extend, um, they all extend professional courtesy to each other, whether it's making reservations or whether or not it's taking on cooks.
+
+[28:23] So what I would do is I would bust your behind at this place, just, you know, break your back at this place at Attica, right? And then go to the chef or the Sioux or whoever you're closest to and say, listen, I'm really interested in these
+
+[28:36] restaurants and do you know anyone there? And that's the surest way to get into one of these
+
+[28:42] restaurants. Much, much, much shorter than just trying to cold call or do something like that. And that's really the way this kind of business is done. So when you're in a cooking school, you have all the cooking contacts from the cooking school, and then once you're in a restaurant, you have the, the, um, the contacts of that chef, and it's all about, you know, they're going to put their name on the line because they believe in you because you've worked hard for them.
+
+[29:04] And that's how the business works. When you say so, noastasia? You know, so you know, and I know when I send people to restaurants, that's how it is. I say, this person is good. Take them on, and they almost always say, yes, or if they really have no space in the kitchen, they say, well, can they wait until X, Y, and
+
+[29:19] Z when I'm going to have some space in the kitchen? But assuming you're willing to work for at least a small amount of time, gratis,
+
+[29:24] then, you know, for free. Then, you know, you can definitely get in. And if you've already had a paid job at one of these places, it's a lot easier for them to send cooks from place to place. It's just to me, I think that's just the way the business works. So I hope that's helpful and good luck and choose America. Okay. Uh, so, um, uh, um, Ari del Rosario, uh, writes in, he found us
+
+[29:45] via, uh, Josh Azorski's write-up in time. Thanks. Thanks for coming. He wants to pester us on some tips for Asabuko. I love Asabuco. one of the things that my mom used to make growing up. Asabuko is veal shank that's cooked and tell us delicious and tender. Um, but he doesn't really want to wait to braise it 3 hours and he wants to know. He said, can you pressure cook instead and hope for the same results? You're actually not going to get the same results in a pressure cooker as you're going to get over a slow braise. I happen to think that they're delicious. I like pressure cooking, but it's going to be a little bit different. The meat's probably going to be, uh, the fibers are going to be a little more distinct, but it'll still be delicious. Yes, you can do asabuco and a pressure cooker. It's going to take you on average. If you use 2nd ring, which is £15 per square inch. I would say it's going to take you on the order of 25 minutes. And so what you're going to want to do to adapt your recipe is the main problem with asabuko in a pressure cooker is going to be the tomato scorching and sticking on the bottom of the pan that you cook with tomatoes.
+
+[30:43] So you're going to want to maybe have to make the sauce a little bit thinner than you would normally. Make sure it's, you know, you want to sear off your asabuca, put it in. And you're going to want to make sure that it's boiling and you're stirring and boiling before you close the pot or you're going to get some scorching from the tomato in the bottom. So it's not going to be the exact same result, but it's going to be delicious. I believe I've made ocebuco in the in the pressure cooker before. Yeah, I think so. The other thing you're going to want to do is don't force vent it because that might dry out the surface and blow apart the meat a little bit. So let the pressure come down on the pressure cooker naturally and then open it up. And, and he says, uh, that he made a variant of
+
+[31:18] asabuco, but with Spanish chorizo, chickpeas, carrots, and potatoes, and he said everything went well except the shank was really tough, and, uh, and he said it didn't help that I was rushing. Exactly. You know, when you cook, when you braise a piece of meat traditionally, what happens is, is that until it's finished braising, it's tough, tough, tough because you instantly overcook the meat with
+
+[31:35] the, with the high temperatures. So now you're relying on the collagen breakdown to give it that kind of tenderness back and to make it. So like an underbraised piece of meat is going to be dry and tough. And so that's why it seems counterintuitive, but what happened, you know, what happens is the longer you cook it at that point, uh, until you break down the collagen, then, um, you know, it's going to get, it's going to get tender again
+
+[31:55] as, as the collagen turns to gelatin. It doesn't help the cooking any longer than that. Once you start cooking it longer, it's just going to turn mushy and eventually, if you boil any liquid out of it, it's going to go dry again. But pressure cooker is definitely the way to go. And, you know, please write in and tell us how it works, but I'm sure it will work well. Pressure cooker has another advantage, by the way. It doesn't heat up your whole damn kitchen. And it's actually fairly energy efficient. So it's actually a really good way to do it. And Asabuko is of course, one of the great recipes of all time. Uh, okay, Val writes in and said, uh, Val's curious about our opinion on Nathan Mirville's soon to be released book, uh, Modernist Cuisine. Is that what it's called? Modern Cuisine? I didn't know that was the actual name of it. the name of it? I don't know. Is it worth the price? Also, since you're interested in the best way to do things, What kind of knives do you use and why? And do you use oil or water stones to sharpen them? Okay, these are 2 interesting questions. The 1st one that I'm going to talk about is the Nathan Mirovold book. And I guess the question of whether it's worth it depends on how much money you have. You know, I think, you know, if you have the money, I think it's definitely worth it. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's going to, it's a Herculean effort. It's unlike any book that's ever been published in cooking, to my knowledge. Um, it's, you know, what's interesting about it is that it's at this, at one
+
+[33:11] time it's got a lot of technical points, but it's also, uh, you know, got a lot of personal points too. It's got a lot, you know, it's very, it's very personally written. It's got a lot of personal opinions. So you get a lot of the opinions of Nathan and Chris, and it's, you know, it's unlike any other book. I mean, it, hey, it's good to be a billionaire. You know, like they got to do what they wanted to do in this book and I think that, um, you know, it's 100% worth
+
+[33:33] it worth the purchase price. Now, if you didn't make rent last week, you know, then, you know, that's a different story. Then, you know, go and read it in the library, but if you can afford to go to, uh,
+
+[33:44] I, in fact, when, uh, I had a meeting with Nathan Mirville, and I say, wow, you know, it's kind of expensive. He's like, well, look, you know, if a cook can afford to go to per se, uh, you know, they can afford to buy the book. And I was like, you're right. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, you're going to learn a lot in the book. So, you know, I think it's definitely worth the purchase price.
+
+[34:03] And if you knew the amount of work that they put into the book, it's probably underpriced. I mean, in terms of the amount of work that it took for them to do it. is probably underpriced. If you look at the images and what happened. I, there is, there's never been a book made like it. don't think. What do you think, Nastasha? You saw it. I think you're right. The pictures are beautiful. Yeah, and just the work that went into them. You know, I mean, it's just, you know, for any of you who have ever had to actually make any images, it's a huge hassle
+
+[34:30] and, you know, they had a rule when they were making doing the book that anytime they bought a piece of equipment, they'd buy 2 and cut
+
+[34:36] one. half so that they could have pictures for the book. think about it. You know what I mean? So, uh, yes. So then the 2nd part of this question is what kind of knives do we like and how do we sharpen them oil and water stones? This is an excellent question. There is so much, what's the word? crap, out on the, you know, out on the web and so many kind of ill-considered opinions on what the best sharpening technique and the best, um, best knives, and there's so much
+
+[35:03] hoo-ha. Um, that it's hard for me to make any kind of actual, uh, pronouncements. I will say this. Um, don't compare American grits, uh, you know, the grit is the size of the, uh, is how they rate abrasives, right? What the grit size is, right? Like, so smaller, uh, you know, higher numbers, like 2000,3,4000 mean finer grit. And if it's rated in microns, then smaller numbers mean finer and finer
+
+[35:32] grit. But Japanese grits, right? Most high-end chefs here in the US, we, you know, they tend to like Japanese knives, Japanese style knives, Japanese sharpening
+
+[35:41] stones, and those knives are fantastic. Um, but, um, Japanese grits and American grits can't be, uh, they're not one to one. So don't think that if you have like a 5000 Japanese stone and then you have like a 2000 or whatever, I don't know, the American stone, that you can just
+
+[35:57] relate relate them that way. Also, how sharp your knife is depends on what you're using it for. Okay? So, you know, a knife that you're going to use for aggressive cutting, right, might actually be better, not take into a polished
+
+[36:10] surface because it maintains that they call kind of microserrations on the microscopic level, even though it doesn't look serrated at all. It's like little imperfections at the surface of the edge help to basically break through things like tomatoes that you would otherwise crush as the knife begins to dull,
+
+[36:26] right? Whereas the Japanese style sharpening is to take it down to a mirror, mirror edge, right? Also, whether, like, so in general, I tend to use, and most chefs don't, they kind of poo-poo them, but I tend to use diamond stones, specifically these composite diamonds, flat diamond stones made by, I think, uh, well, we'll look it up on the blog, but like DMT or something like that or DMZ,
+
+[36:47] some of that, and they're flat, uh, with a diet, and I use the fine and the ultra fine. And I like them and then I use them basically dry with water with oil. I use I tend to use water. You know, chefs poo poo them and then they use them and they're like, damn, my knives are sharp. You know what I mean? If you're going to sharpen a lot of knives at a time, an interesting system was built by the Edge Pro because a lot of the reason why your knives aren't sharp. It doesn't really matter how good your stone is or how good your knife is. Your hand's not that good. You're not really sharpening the knife properly because you're not maintaining proper contact angles when you're sharpening, right? Or you haven't learned to feel the burr on the edge of the knife. Typically, what you're going to do is sharpen one side of the knife until it rolls a burr over on the edge very
+
+[37:27] slightly, and you'll feel for that with your finger by dragging along the knife for the burr, then you'll turn it over and you'll take that burr
+
+[37:32] off and then you'll progressively go softer and softer. And then afterwards, I even leather strop it because I find that leather strop is a nice way to kind of refine the edge. But so the edge pro system is good if you're going to sharpen a lot of knives. It's a little hokey if you're going to sharpen one because you've got to set up this big system. I would recommend you learn how to freehand, sharpen a knife just by eye, but it takes a lot of practice. You know, what particular knife you buy depends on your particular cutting style. If you're used to the German and French styles with kind of a thick bolster on them. You know stay with them. They're not, they're not bad. Most chefs, I know, have switched over to Japanese Western style. And Japanese Western style typically have a much, much thinner blade that people have become accustomed to now. When you switch to them. If you've never used them before. You're going to get a different set of blisters and calluses on your fingers. And it might hurt for the 1st couple of weeks that you use them because you're not used to choking up on such a knife with such a thin edge in the back.
+
+[38:24] But most chefs that I know now use Japanese Western style blades. What I don't like about a Japanese Western blade is they're typically sharpen more on one side than on the other. And I find it, for me, difficult to sharpen, although most chefs don't have that problem. I don't like it. Uh, the uh, typical Western style blade is sharpened um, on both sides an equal amount. I either like a Western style knife or on the extreme other side, traditional Japanese knives, which
+
+[38:49] are sharpened almost like a chisel, where it just has one bevel edge that's fairly easy to
+
+[38:53] maintain. And then you take it off the burr off the back by holding the knife almost flat against you sharpening stone. I find traditional Japanese knives to be incredibly easy to sharpen. And I find you don't need to buy the most expensive ones to have the good time. Go to, go to Corin, uh, K-O-R-I-N, uh, you know, dot com, get there, get their house brand of, uh, of, you know, original Japanese style, uh, knives, get like a
+
+[39:15] Deba, get like a Yanagi, which is a slicer, and they're not going to break the bank. They're like, you know, $100 apiece. And as long as you maintain them, you have to sharpen them almost every time you use them, they're going to be unbelievable performers for you. And then if you nick the edge because they're fragile, don't cut bones with them, please. You know what I mean? But if you nick the edge, you know, you haven't lost a $500 knife. So if you're going to want to go into Japanese knives, traditional Japanese knives, which I highly recommend, then I would get one of
+
+[39:40] those, but you don't need to listen to all the mystical hoo-ha necessarily. I don't think, I'm going to get a lot of nasty comments about this, about the way, you know, exactly using the right watering stone.
+
+[39:49] If you get one of these new, really good diamond stones, go on, you know, the knife forms and check it out, see what people say about it. Don't take my word for it. You know, you'll see that they're pretty good performers. You know, if you if you use them properly, and I sharpen my Japanese knives on them all the time. Uh, so that's what I would, that's what I would recommend doing. And one last story before we go. There is a, there's an interesting problem. I was thinking about, a bunch of related problems about when going to a restaurant. You ever go to a restaurant and it's really loud, all of a sudden it gets really, really loud all of a sudden? Yeah. So there's this, there's this phenomenon that was 1st brought up in 1959, originally called the cocktail party effect, but now called the
+
+[40:26] cafe effect. And but there's actually another problem called the cocktail party problem. And another thing called the Lombard effect. They're all interrelated. And what it is, is the cafe effect is that you can have a normal conversation with a group of people.
+
+[40:39] More people show up at the party, you can have a normal conversation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, one more person shows up and everyone starts shouting. Right? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically it's like this kind of threshold effect where one more, one more body shows up and bam, everyone starts shouting. And it has to do with a set of differential equations, basically, where, you know, all of a sudden, that little bit, you now talk a little bit
+
+[41:02] louder, to be heard, the other group talks a little bit louder, you talk a little louder, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, until everyone starts shouting to a point where it becomes uncomfortable to shout
+
+[41:10] anymore, and then everyone just moves closer together. So that's the cafe effect used to be called the cocktail party effect. First brought up by a guy named McLean in 1958 or 59 in the Journal of American Acoustics. Dude was clearly joking. I went back and read the paper because he was like, these are just 1st order approximations and he was talking about apartments and parties and bad guests and stuff like that. So he was clearly having fun with it. But it got picked up in literature and acoustics, and then got folded into a separate problem called the cocktail party problem, which is interesting in physics, and
+
+[41:39] interested to the CIA because the CIA really wants to be able to pick signals out of the air and analyze them so that they can tell what you're doing, even if you're on a bunch of other problems, and doing a bunch of other things.
+
+[41:50] And so the cocktail party problem now, if you Wikipedia, what it refers to is your ability in a cocktail party to tune out everything else and listen to somebody's
+
+[42:00] conversation, even though there's a lot of competing information in the air. And it relies very heavily on the fact that we have 2 ears. And so if someone has a hearing deficit in one ear. And why they have such an impossible time understanding conversation in crowded rooms, which is why you should be nice to them and look at them so
+
+[42:15] they can see your mouth and stuff like that. So that's the cocktail party problem, and they're all related to something interesting called the Lombard effect. And the Lombard effect is the effect where you instinctively talk louder when people around you are louder, where
+
+[42:27] you just, it's instinctive. And in fact, it's the way people, it's the way experts test to see if you're lying about your hearing
+
+[42:35] deficit. If you start talking louder as talking is ramped up around you, because it's a reflex, you can't help it. They're like, you're a liar, you're a faker. Anyway, so the cafe effect, the cocktail party effect, and the Lombard effect. 3 related, interesting phenomena that you might notice at your next cocktail party or if the restaurant is too dang loud. This has been cooking issues and come back next Tuesday. Cooking issues on the Heritage radio network brought to you this week by the Barter House. Fishes, fish, rock, crow. Oh, you did.
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+[0:00] The following episode of cooking issues has been sponsored by Acme Smoked Fish. Located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, Acme has been a mainstay New York's culinary landscape for over 55 years. Using
+
+[0:11] old world recipes, Acme produces the finest smoked salmon, whitefish, and sable that discerning palates
+
+[0:16] demand for more information on where to find Acme, Blue Hill Bay, or Ruby Bay
+
+[0:21] products. Please visit www.acmesmokedfish.com.
+
+[0:37] Who will I be waiting? Dave, you're on. Cooking issues. Cookie issues radio. Dave Arnold, coming to you live from Germany, where I'm at the Berlin Cocktail Conference. I have Nastasia sitting in the studio in Brooklyn. He's there in the Dodgers? Hi, Dave. Hey, yeah, so uh, this uh, this radio show is being literally phoned in phoning it in from Berlin on my iPhone. So if I click or pop. Yeah, you'll know you'll know why. And uh, Nastasia, thanks so much for putting uh, Phil Collins on as our intro music today. They couldn't find your song. Yeah, so, you know, everyone likes Phil Collins every now and again. So that's, that's, uh, perfect. everyone has 2 ears and a heart, Dave. Exactly, exactly. All right, all right. So, listen, so, uh, Nastasia, can you read the numbers instead of having it in front of me and for some reason, I cannot commit it to memory? Yes, if you want to call in and ask questions to Dave, who's in Germany, the number is
+
+[1:42] 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. I would really like it. Someone from Germany, called New York to ask me a question, mom, in Germany. see if we can see if we can get that going. Um, and we'll be here uh, live for the next uh, 45 minutes or
+
+[1:58] so, and uh, meanwhile, I'm going to take some email questions. So, uh, one of our uh, favorite uh, blog readers, Schinderhannes, wrote actually from Germany, but not from Berlin, uh, and he says, uh, uh, wait, wait, where's, oh, he said, why are the 2
+
+[2:13] most uh, important beverages in Germany, beer and apple juice, beer for
+
+[2:17] adults and apple juice for kids? Do so rarely in cocktails, and do you have any good recipes for these ingredients? Shinerhana, this is an excellent question. Um, The problem with apple juice and cocktails is that apple juice is relatively diluted.
+
+[2:30] So most cocktails that are produced in bars, and therefore also most recipes that are written for
+
+[2:34] them, are based on the idea that you're going to make a drink and then dilute it with, uh, you know, chill it and dilute it with ice. Now, the problem is, is that if you're using apple juice, By the time it's chilled, uh, and diluted, it's just much too watery. So you don't have, you're not going to have enough, uh, alcohol in it, and you're also not going to have enough flavor of the, of the apple juice. And so I think that's the reason why um, there aren't that many drinks using it. Now, of course, the solution to this is to, um, is to chill your, uh, drinks beforehand, right, or mix them cold and then chill them down so that when they're mixed together, you don't have to dilute it a lot with, uh, with ice. A really good technique. It's actually freeze the ice cubes in, uh, freeze the apple juice into ice cubes and then shape with the frozen, uh, apple juice. And this way, as it's chilling and diluted, you can get it really cold, the same as a standard cocktail, about -7 Celsius. But, uh, as it's diluting, it's diluting with apple juice, uh, and this technique works really well and something we do a lot. I like, um, I like, uh, apple juice and whiskey. I think it's really good. When we use apple juice, though, we're often making our own apple juice and we'll, uh, we'll juice it with, uh, some ascorbic
+
+[3:43] acid, that's an antioxidant, so that the apple juice steak stays, uh, clear. I mean, sorry, it stays green and or yellow, if it's yellow apple or red, if there's a lot of red skin, and then, but it doesn't oxidize. The important part, and then often we'll clarify it, uh, and and mix this. So we do a lot of work with that. We've done Apple and tequila. We've done Apple and and bourbon. Most of the time we, we, we're only doing the apple juice and the spirit because we tend to use very high quality, uh, apples, uh, and we really want to show the flavors
+
+[4:11] that, that, uh, of the specific apple. Most apple juice ones it's allowed to oxidize and clarify traditionally uh the taste uh differences are muted somewhat. So that's one of the reasons we like to do it fresh and uh, some of our favorite apples
+
+[4:23] are uh, actually it's kernel, which is an old English variety. I saw the Spitzenberg, which is an old American variety. Um, but, you know, you know, any local variety that you like, assuming it has, you know, a high enough acid
+
+[4:34] balance, is, uh, a good acid sugar balance, you can use, and of course, you can correct acid sugar with, uh, malic acid, which is the acid from apples, or you can, uh, you know,
+
+[4:43] obviously you can add more, more sugar to it. Uh, which regards beers. There is like a there are a whole bunch of cocktails based on beers. They're just not seen as off, uh, uh, these days, like, you know, shandy's. We do a lot of really old school hot beer cocktails where, uh, we'll use, uh, like a beer, uh, usually an ale, and, uh, and like either a brandy, uh, or
+
+[5:07] sometimes, uh, whiskey, and then we'll flame it using, uh, our red hot poker, which can basically, uh, it
+
+[5:14] can ignite the drink. You don't really need to ignite it, but you need to get, uh, something hot, like a hot
+
+[5:18] stone, or, or just very hot, uh, implement with it, like with a, with a lot of thermal wallop to
+
+[5:23] it, to give the kind of burned flavors, uh, that are really characteristic of those old style drinks.
+
+[5:28] Uh, and I really like to do that. I don't have any good modern beer recipes off the top of my head for cold cocktails, but they've become extremely uh, popular in certain bars over the past uh, 3 or 4
+
+[5:40] years, uh, in the states, and I, I, I think you're going to see a return to more beer based cocktails in the future, especially in restaurants that have, um, uh, they don't have a liquor license, right?
+
+[5:50] So they can't serve liquor, but they can serve wine or beer. And so these places do a lot of interesting work with wine based cocktails and uh beer based cocktails. But unfortunately, I don't have any uh, good recipes right off the bat. Uh, what do you think, Styles? Do you think that's a good answer or no? Yeah, I think that's a good answer. Have you been drinking a lot of beer out there? Uh, I've had some beers, so there's a characteristic beer from Berlin called Berlin Weiss, uh, that is, uh, they sweeten it, the one I had with uh,
+
+[6:17] Woodruff, uh, syrup, so it's green. It's just like big goblet of green beer and it's a little sweet. So I couldn't drink a lot of them, but whenever I go somewhere, I like to try the characteristic, uh, beverage of the area, but the, the person I ordered from
+
+[6:30] a Toby that it was, it was mainly a ladies drink, but I did enjoy it. I did enjoy it, so it was, and I have been drinking, drinking quite a bit of beer. We have a collar. Oh, we have color? Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hi there. I'm Colin. I'm living down in Washington, DC. And uh, Recently, I've been trying to make, I've been making sweet grass vodka for quite a while. I've got a sweet grass bash. I've just been usually just soaking it for a couple days, but when I saw the, uh,
+
+[7:01] nothing to use with the EC canister. I tried doing some with uh, you know, pressure, pressurizing with some nitrous oxide and trying to sort of blast some of the fresh, grassy flavor out. But something kind of curious happened. Uh, when I did it, I used, you know, same concentrations I usually do. Uh, and, but it's pressurized it with 2 charges. Uh, let it sit for a couple minutes, about between 2 and 3 minutes, let the gas
+
+[7:35] out, and it didn't look too heavily colored. It was like very, very lightly, so I let it sit overnight in the fridge. Like you do, and, you know, it kind of looked the emerald thing that it usually has, but it's now been like maybe a week
+
+[7:51] later, and whereas the regular stuff will be, you know, still this kind of emerald
+
+[7:57] color. This stuff has turned very tawny, very almost like uh, watered down coffee or tea color. And, and what was your favorite? Wait again, I couldn't hear the very 1st part. What was that? what was the flavor again? I couldn't hear uh sweet grass. Oh, sweet grass. Okay. Um, yeah, kind of like. All that. I mean, I would bet, right? Like my guess, just off the beginning, and I don't know whether that, the main question, is the main question about the color? Yeah, but color, also the flavor profile is a little different. There's like, usually it's kind of very vanilla-y and grassy. They're still, they're kind of like grassy vanilla thing, but there's also a more, I don't know, almost like brandy cherry
+
+[8:39] thing that's not usually there. Uh, so I was just wondering if, you know, it's kind of the chlorophyll is getting blasted apart, and that's what caused it to change color, or if you got any, you know, ideas about what might be going on. Yeah, I mean, I would almost guarantee that you're breaking some cells when you're doing it, and thereby releasing some
+
+[9:01] enzymes, the enzymes are getting to work, uh, busy oxidizing and creating some of those brown flavors. I mean that would be my guess. Now, I think that, you know, uh, it's, it's definitely true,
+
+[9:11] so, like, uh, for instance, when I'm doing an herb that Noah has a tendency to go brown, when I do it, I'm, I'm trying to be as careful as I can and use not, uh, herbs that aren't bruised, and also to not, um, and to not shake it real
+
+[9:24] hard. I just swirl it around when I use those because I want to minimize breakage. Yeah, okay. But, also, uh, you know, we've had some luck, but not great luck. doping it with a little bit of an antioxidant. The problem is it's also then going to add acid, so it's going to change the flavor, like ascorbic acid. You can use sodium metabisulfite instead as an antioxidant, but I haven't tried it, so I can't talk about its efficacy. Now, the difference in flavor between the two. I think you have 2 different things going on. Uh, and I, again, I can't really judge, like, which one is, uh, is working, and by the way, for people who don't know what we're talking about, go on to cooking
+
+[9:58] issues.com, and look up, uh, I guess, infusion, uh, and I, ISI, or EC, and you can
+
+[10:04] see, it's this technique where we do very rapid infusions of flavor in, uh, in whipped cream makers, and, uh, you know, for me, it's really, it's really a good technique, because it allows us to do something, um, that we would normally use a vacuum machine to do, which is very expensive, and you can do it, you know, fairly easily, and you can do it at home,
+
+[10:22] you can do it in a bar. It's friendly. Um, but uh, the flavor, the flavor profiles are different than they are with the traditional infusion that takes a long time. And so I think, um, not necessarily better or worse, just different. So, the, I think it's true that you're going to extract different flavors using this technique, uh, then you would, um, using a traditional, uh, longer
+
+[10:44] tech, right? I think the longer product stays in there, the less the difference is going to be. But I also think you're probably getting some flavor chase based on vaccination. Don't you think so? I think that the actual oxidation is going to change the flavors. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, I think so. This is almost, you know, in a in a pleasant way. So I was a little bit, I was just curious if, uh, yeah. Now, I guess it could be something enzymatic too, kind of breaking, breaking things down a little different. But, uh... Well, as soon as something oxidizes, right? I mean that's the thing I think people don't, people, so when you add something like a, like an antioxidant, like ascorbic acid, for instance, too, and we're talking a little bit about this in the, in the
+
+[11:19] last, uh, question, when you add something like this, Uh, you know, yes, you're preventing oxidation, which is a visual cue that something's going on, but it also radically changes the taste. You know what I mean? I mean, that's why apple juice, for instance, doesn't brown apple juice doesn't taste like fresh apples is because it's gone through this oxidation procedure. It's not just that it's been heated, although that opportunity, and it's not
+
+[11:39] just it's been clarified, but the actual oxidation, where it goes brown, is changing the characteristic flavor of fresh apple into the characteristic flavor of
+
+[11:46] the of the apple juice. So I think you might have some of that going on. And I think you also might have just perhaps a different extraction of things from it in general, you
+
+[11:55] know? Yeah. So are there some other instances where you notice that oxidation has maybe actually like improved
+
+[12:01] flavor? Because, uh, or is it generally a negative trend that you've, uh, I mean, I think it depends. People really like um, uh, apple juice. Do you know what I mean? And so oxidized apple juice. I mean, it's not what I'm shooting for, so I tend to go, uh, try to make it taste as fresh as possible,
+
+[12:19] but again, oxidation there is not, uh, bad. It just, it's just different. We normally associate it as being negative because we're used to, uh, we're used to it being a negative characteristic, and for instance,
+
+[12:29] in things like pesto, and I think most herb oxidation, like like basil oxidation, and cilantro oxidation, has very characteristic flavors, and
+
+[12:37] we, we, we kind of shun those flavors, and so it takes on a bad name, but there's nothing inherently bad about oxidation.
+
+[12:43] I think I might have told the story once on the on the cookie issues before, but I'll say it again real quick. There is a, you know, I'm pretty sure I said it, but that, you know, Reese's peanut butter cups, which I won't use their name, but it's Reese's peanut butter cups,
+
+[12:54] they, uh, they're characteristically oxidized, the fads oxidize a little bit in the peanut butter, and that's the characteristic taste of the Reese's peanut butter cup, and if you actually put oxygen scavengers in the packaging so that it doesn't oxidize a little bit, nobody thinks it tastes like a Reese's peanut butter company
+
+[13:09] more and they don't want to buy it. So, it's, um, you know. yeah. oxidation, it, it, you know, it's, it's all in the eye of the, of the eater or in the mouth of the eater. guess. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. I hope that answered your question. Thanks for calling in and uh you just post something to the blog if you have more results with the sweetgrass because I'm interested we haven't used any uh sweetgrass infusion. So uh, so yeah, yeah, I'll call in. Um, uh, wants to have some more systematic stuff, I'll put it together and show you guys. But thanks for your help. Very good. Thank you. All right. take a break. We have, what? We should take a break. All right, so we're going to our 1st break and we're going to come back live from our 2 continent cooking issues from New York and from Berlin.
+
+[13:57] All the time I was searching nowhere to run too. It started me thinking. Wondering where I have to make my life. And who'll be waiting? Asking all kinds of questions. To myself. But never finding the answers. Cling at the top of my horse. No one listening. All this time I still remember everything you said. This much you promised. How could I ever fall in? You know I love you, but I just... Dave, you're on. Hey, welcome back to cooking issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, even when I'm in Germany. Uh, so we're coming to you live as, like I said, Stasi's on the studio in Brooklyn, uh, at Roberta's Pizza,
+
+[15:11] and uh, I'm in the Berlin Cocktail Conference in Berlin. So, uh, Duncan from Sacramento Writes Inn. Oh, by the way, call in your questions. We're still here for about another half hour or so, Nastasia, give them the number. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. All right. Duncan writes in from Sacramento and says he's been trying to make a stable foam from beer. So we've had a couple beer questions, if I like to say, all these questions are working together today. I think it could be interesting to do a beer mousse or deconstruct a black and tan. However, I've not been able to get a dent and stable foam. Pegan hasn't worked, and I'm not sure Jella would set up well in the presence of alcohol. Now, Duncan, if you're looking to do a traditional mousse style texture with gelatin. I guarantee you, gelatin will set, uh, the beer. Fine. First of all, beer's not that high in alcohol. And so it will affect it a little bit. You might have to use a little more gelis than you would normally use, but it's definitely gonna work. I've done gelets of champagne many times with gelatin and it works fine. If you want to make uh, not a mousse, but just something as dense and foamy, uh, get a really good result. Uh, I will steer you to the same technique as Sam Mason. Uh, formerly of uh, Atlas WD 50 and Taylor Restaurant, uh, currently has a bar is named for some
+
+[16:22] reason because Germany has escaped me. He uses a product called methocell, uh, F 50, which is a methocellulose product that
+
+[16:29] is, uh, basically can whip anything into a, a moose. Not a moose with a foam, but like that, you know, not quite as dense as shaving cream, but much denser than your normal foams that you make, like an egg white. like an egg white meringue. And in fact, we use it to dehydrate uh, foams into meringues. And I think we have a recipe somewhere on the blog. Stasi for that, for SSD and the hydrocolar problem? Yeah. And so, and so he famously made a Guinness foam using a methocell F 50, and it makes a nice, dense, stable, um, like a little bit thicker than the head on
+
+[17:02] a Guinness, but like of that kind of nature. And so, yeah, that's a really good technique. Another one that you can use, uh, if you don't like, uh, methal cell, uh, you can buy them at the cell. I think a, a retail, I think in the sanctuary's website, and um, some people have a little bit of a gripe with methyl cell, because, uh, it's one of the only things we use. Not, um, quotes all natural. It's not a chemical that is natural. It's modified cellulose pro- uh product. So then uh people have a problem with that. Sometimes we'll use, uh, something called versa whip, which is basically, uh, they have a soy based
+
+[17:36] versa whip, which is soy protein, uh, as a whipping agent, and they have, uh, uh, caseine, milk based protein versus whip. They even also get, I think, at both of those flyers. And those can whip things into a denser foam. I find verse one to be difficult to use. I think method cell, F 50, and remember, F 50, don't get a different method cell. F like frank 50. Uh, that one I think is really easy to use, it whips up like an egg white. Uh, you might have to add a little bit of a thickener, uh, like, I don't know, sand
+
+[18:04] tang gum or maltedexin or something to the to the beer to get it to warm up nicely, but uh, should work. Dave, we have a caller. Oh, we have a caller? All right, call her on the air. Hello, my name is Derek. I call. I wrote in a couple weeks ago about a question about velvety meats. Oh yeah, yeah. Anyway, thanks a lot for the answer. was great. Um, I had another question I wanted to ask about today, which is, you mentioned
+
+[18:31] a uh, a week or 2 ago, something I've heard before about, um, cooking sous
+
+[18:36] vide, that as long as you sear it, you're basically safe because the inside of the meat is basically sterile.
+
+[18:42] But I had to give this a 2nd pot last week when I got a piece of monkfish and found some worms crawling out of it.
+
+[18:49] I wanted to ask about dealing with parasites. And if you had some, uh, cause those obviously, you know, aren't only on the surface, but I know they're easier to kill than a lot of bacteria, but I
+
+[18:58] wonder if you could address safe dishes with those and how you might build out doing it. All right, that's an interesting question. you pick monkfish, which obviously is full of parasites, also codfish, full of parasites. Uh, worms. I mean, luckily, I don't know about muffish, but the ones in codfish aren't going to infect you, but they're incredibly disgusting. You know what I mean? Um, and the, um, you know, and in general, but the, the, the same thing holds true for traditional cooking and SUV there. So, and so our discussion is basically, when you're, when you're cooking something sous vide, often, we don't cook things um, enough to pasteurize them, enough to kill all the bacteria that's present, right? Uh, and the reason we don't is often if you cook something that long, the texture can be uh, ruined, right? So that's true on uh, certain beef muscle cuts like uh, uh,
+
+[19:46] tenderloin, like filet, I think if you cook it long enough to pasteurize it, or temperatures where you're going to pasteurize it, that you can, you can damage
+
+[19:52] the, uh, the texture, but it's definitely true on fish. You really, it's very hard to cook most fish, so that they're pasteurized because, uh, you don't ever really want to get them in general, up to the temperatures, they could pasteurize them, and even when you do, you don't want to hold them there that
+
+[20:05] long. exceptions like striped bass can take those kind of temperatures, but, uh, so, uh, so you don't tend to patrize them. Now, on something like, contain the parasite, like codfish or a monk, the, the fact of the matter
+
+[20:16] is that we're doing a traditional cook, you're also probably not getting the internals up high enough to be any different than you would in sous
+
+[20:23] vide, because uh, but you are overheating, you are really fearing the outside and killing it.
+
+[20:28] So, I think my point with safety and sous vide is that uh, I don't think it's any less safe than the traditional method. Does that make sense at all or no? No, that makes perfect sense. Um, do you know what it does take? I know that a lot of these worms and things can be killed just by freezing
+
+[20:44] or as much lower temperatures than a lot of bacteria and such, so I assume that generally makes it safe. So unless I'm making sushi out of it, it's probably okay. Does that sound about right? Yeah, if you buy a sushi braids, 1st of all, like there's different, there's obviously there's parasites in fish that will infect you and those are the ones that they get rid of by uh freezing it. So anytime you're going to buy a sushi grade fish, it's been frozen to kill off those parasites, right? So what you're dealing with a sushi grade product, you're you're good to go. Um, with regards to, like, the worms on a big piece of codfish, let's say, my, I have to go research because I have research. My recollection is that those are merely gross and not harmful. But, um, yeah, I, I'm not going to swear on. tell people that, you know, on the radio because I haven't looked into it, but, um, but I also think that they're, like you said, I think they're probably fairly easy to kill, and that if you're, you know, but the, I, that's why, like, I'd be a little worried about doing super low temperature work on a fish that's
+
+[21:43] gonna have a lot of parasites, um, because then, you know, you, you know, you might get one of those suckers wriggling out of the plate, and that would be, that would, you know, customers running out, like free
+
+[21:52] meals. You know, it'd be, it would be a nightmare, you know, a huge nightmare. Um, and yeah, we've all seen like worms coming out of cod or out of monkfish. they're just there. You know what I mean? And so, like, for instance, the famous low temperature cod recipe, extreme low temperature cod recipe, uh, is uh, by uh, Juan Rocca, uh, from the, uh, the sous vide book that came out a number of years ago in Spanish, which is, you know, uh, you know, one of the 1st books I'm going to need, a really good book, uh,
+
+[22:19] stars, you still there? I heard it click. Yeah, I think the other guy. Yeah, dropped off. All right. Uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, sorry I have to do this. in Germany. But that, that recipe is uh, famous, but um, it was mistranslated as cod, so people basically said that they, they were heating
+
+[22:35] Codges, extremely low temperature, like 100 Fahrenheit. Uh, and in fact, it was salt cod, where all of the, uh, that was reconstituting
+
+[22:41] salt cod bakalao, and so, you know, all the worms were obviously killed. But anyway, what do you think, Saz? Is that a good answer? I think that's a good answer, Dave. Too bad we lost the guy. Hopefully that helps. I know. hopefully that helps. So don't get a 2nd question, which is you've been trying to learn with cast iron. He's been having trouble with food sticking intermittently, and he says, as far as he can tell the pan of season, but sometimes I'll much, uh, will stick to
+
+[23:03] it, and sometimes they won't. Well, I think this. I think I can't see your pan, obviously, because I'm in Berlin, but the, and you're in Sacramento. But, um, things can look seasoned, but they're not really seasoned as well as if they had
+
+[23:15] been, uh, seasoned for years and years of use. So the, the initial seasoning isn't really enough to make something kind of bulletproof
+
+[23:21] non-stick. First of all, nothing's bulletproof nonstick. But I think what's probably happening is you probably have a couple of high spots in the pan, that can cause adhesion, and then once it adheres, it, it, it adheres pretty well to that
+
+[23:31] point, and so maybe you didn't get a coating of oil, uh, over one particular section or dried out, or somehow you got adhesion to the pan, and
+
+[23:40] the more you use it, the less and less it's gonna stick. Uh, and you know, especially these newer cast iron, they're, they're rougher and surface. I tend to find that you know until you build a really good season on them. They're not really, uh, you know, even though some people theoretically think that the roughness is
+
+[23:54] going to help you in non-stick, uh, phenomenons. I don't, I don't happen to be one of those people who, who believe it. I mean, I think there's been a lot of discussion on that on the blog if you look at the blog on the this. I think it's called, what you call it, South, you like heavy metal, the science cast iron or something like this. Yeah, I haven't researched it recently, but you know, my, my thoughts fresh from the research are, are in that post, if, uh, if anyone wants to go back and and look at it. Um, Chris Anderson writes in and uh, he says he enjoys the show, which we appreciate, right? I'd appreciate that. And he says, what is the correct ratio and making a simple syrup? Every recipe I find seems to have a different proportion of sugar to water and does the dilution depend on the application. Uh, and then, and then he goes It has a question about the shelf life of this syrup, uh should be stored in the fridge, et cetera, et cetera. Will that make the sugar crystallize? And he's noticed that when he infuses things into it like lavender or lemongrass. It tends to last, uh, not very long before it starts to mold on the top, uh, and then sugar seems to last longer. Can you extend the shelf lights, et cetera, et cetera. These are all interesting questions. First of all, let me start by saying that there is no correct, there's no correct, uh, simple syrup recipe, like there's all different ratios that you can use, and uh, what's, but,
+
+[25:02] but, uh, particular recipe isn't going to taste the same as what the writer
+
+[25:06] intended, unless you use the same proportions that they asked for. So, I tend, and we at the school tend to use what's called a 2 to one simple syrup, and everyone makes a
+
+[25:17] different. In a bar, in a bar, uh, place, they tend to make their syrup based on
+
+[25:20] volume because they don't have scales, they have cup measures. So they'll, they'll make simple syrup based on volume. Now, luckily, standard American granulated sugar weighs about
+
+[25:30] close to the same as water on a volume basis, just lucky. So they, they, you know, a weight simple syrup and a, uh, and a volume simple syrup are about the same when made with US granulated sugar. Now, uh, in a bar, they tend to make one to one simple syrup because they're not heating it even. They using super, actually, they're using super fine syrup, which is going to make it sweeter because it's denser. So eraser I just said. But they're using super fine sugar, which, uh, which dissolves very quickly, and they're stirring it because they don't necessarily have a heat source right there, and they want to be able to make their simple syrup without heat. So they tend to make a one to one simple syrup, uh, and they tend to do it by
+
+[26:08] volume, and they tend to, with super fine sugar. So, like, that should be, like, that's if a bar recipe just says simple syrup one to one, that's probably what they mean. Um, now, uh, another reason that bartenders tend to use uh, a lighter syrup like that is because it pours a lot faster and you leave a lot less syrup in the bottom of your
+
+[26:24] jigger. The downside of it is that uh, that simple syrup also adds a lot more water for an equivalent amount of sweetness, so it can throw off the dilution in recipes
+
+[26:33] uh, in certain recipes. I tend to prefer to add sugar in the form of sugar and make a denser simple syrup. So when usually unless I say otherwise, my simple syrup is 2 to one, 2 parts
+
+[26:44] of sugar to one part water by weight, and then heated until it dissolves and then allowed to cool
+
+[26:50] down. Uh, and when I need it in a hurry, I do a 4 part. I do 4 parts, uh, sugar, to one part water, heated soil dissolves, and then I throw ice cubes to show it down quickly, and that's how I make it. Now, The more sugar you put in a simple syrup. Uh, the, uh, the more sugar you put in simple syrup, the less chance you're
+
+[27:09] going to get of mold developing, a one to one simple syrup is definitely going to mold over time. If you store it in the fridge, it's not going to mold over time. Uh, I don't think I've never really had them go moldy in the fridge. Um, but, um, yeah, then you have to devote storage space to it in, in the fridge. A 2 to one simple sugar probably won't mold as much. It will still mold if it's outside and you keep it in the in the fridge as well. Now, you might get some crystallization in your 2 to one, but you're not going to get that much crystallization
+
+[27:35] into 2 to one. I wouldn't worry about it so much. Um, Now, when you're confusing the syrup, the question, uh, whether or not, you know, what kind of shelf life you're going to get out of it.
+
+[27:44] A lot depends on, and by the way, if you have to leave your simplest here about, uh, because, you know, whatever, you don't have free space or whatever, if you're going to keep it for a long period of time, if you, you know, once a week, just, you know, bring it up almost to the boil and let it drop down again, you're going to, you're going to kill the mold in
+
+[28:02] it, and you get to extend the shelf life again, because it's not going to get unsafe on you. Now, when you're doing an infusion, uh, something, uh, you know, like an herb or whatnot, you're probably getting more, uh, water and
+
+[28:12] dale depends. If you're going to boil the, the thing that you're infusing with the, with the sugar, right, then, uh, you know, you might be killing some stuff into it, but you're probably introducing some, some spores and whatnot, some mold into it,
+
+[28:23] and, um, you're probably also giving it more of a substrate to act
+
+[28:28] on. So that might be one of the reasons that you're getting more spoilage. I haven't um, researched any specific, you know, mold inhibitors, although that's an interesting question. Maybe we should look into it, Stazi. But, uh, I think you're going to definitely increase the life of those things by putting them in the fridge, and I don't think that any crystallization,
+
+[28:45] uh, definitely not on a one to one, and even on a 2 to one, I've had 2 to one in my fridge for months,
+
+[28:50] and you know, you'll get a couple of crystals around the bottom of it, but not a huge, huge deal.
+
+[28:55] Um, so in terms of consistency. I I don't think there's a best or a worst. There's what fits your cooking style best. We have both one to one and 2 to one around. It's all about being consistent from time to time. Right, we need to take a break, Dave. telling me. Oh. All right, so we're taking a break coming back with the last segment of cooking issues, you still have time to call in.
+
+[29:27] on my Just hold on to that feeling. We both know we've been here before. We both know I
+
+[29:44] can find. Hold on my heart. Because I'm looking All your shoulder. Don't rush in this time. I'm sure I'm
+
+[30:12] my heart Throw me a lifeline I'll
+
+[30:23] keep my place for you. Somewhere deep inside. It's all my heart. Tell her to be patient. Okay, Dave, you're on. All right, welcome back to Cookie Issues. Uh, doing it to you in 2 Time, then. in Berlin and we're in New York. Uh, so some time to call in, stop. What's number again? 718-497-2128 718-497-2128. So, uh, Jay wrote us and asked us a question about uh, protein in
+
+[31:10] flowers and uh, and he, uh, he or she, this is Jay, referenced uh, McGee, Harold McGee.
+
+[31:16] And so rather than answer this question, I'm just telling you, Jay, I'm going to wait because Harold McGee's actually going to come and teach a class in less than 2 weeks,
+
+[31:23] uh, what are the dates again, Natasha? October 21st and 22nd. That's Thursday and Friday. Right. So Harold McGee is actually coming to the French culinary. All day, all day. 2 day class. He's coming to teach the Harold McGee class. We probably put something up on the blog uh in advance of it. But anyway, I'm going to be spending some quality time with him, and you can too, if you want. There are still spots. uh go to the uh FCI website. Frenchculinary.com and look for the Harold McGee lecture series. But, uh, I'm gonna spend some quality time with him and he is really up on, uh, these kinds of things and has done a lot of research. So, nostalgia, I'm going to put the, the, the protein question, uh, flour protein question down as a
+
+[32:02] whole because I want to give Jay a better answer, uh, when we're hanging with McGee. All right. So, um, Now, uh, we have a question. Uh, let me see if I can find it. Uh, and the thing is, uh, when I cook for my, this is uh, Teddy, Teddy DeVico writes
+
+[32:19] in, and says, when I cook for my family, my dad, do not eat salt or any food that contains salt. So I have to cook salt, uh, cook well without salt for him. I still cook for the rest of my family with salt. He does not believe that salt can make food drastically better, but I tell him it does. Why does salt makes food taste better? Uh and is there any way to make food taste good without salt? Uh, uh, by the way, Teddy does not think it is possible. Uh, so, uh, uh, you were right. it's not possible. Uh, it turns out that, uh, Tom, I don't know whether your dad, uh, dislikes salt or whether or not
+
+[32:51] he, is, you know, one of the, you know, a few people that is actually sensitive to salt from a,
+
+[32:56] a blood pressure, uh, situation. But, I mean, salt, sodium chloride is, uh, is 100% necessary to, uh, your survival as a human being. Okay? So you know, your neurons don't work without sodium. Like, you know, we don't work. There is no life, uh, for us without sodium, and we don't make it ourselves. We have to take it in. In fact, mammals, uh, and other things, even humans, although there's some controversy about how it
+
+[33:23] works because, uh, no, there's some controversy. But we have what's called salt appetite. So other than thirst where you're like, I'm thirsty. I need liquid. The only other thing that works that way is salt where there's like, you have a salt, uh, apple, these mammals, dude, whether or not humans have the same kind of salt, uh, salt thing that, that, uh, primates
+
+[33:43] do this, you know, up for questions. So salt is definitely something you need. But you don't necessarily need to sprinkle salt on things, because food that you eat naturally contains uh more or less salt, depending on what it is, naturally in the product, meats have a certain amount of salt in them, uh, because they come from
+
+[33:58] animals and animals contain sodium. Um, but, you know, natural mineral waters contain, sometimes a good bit of salt in them, depending on which one you choose, how there's plants that grow, like, uh, for instance, uh,
+
+[34:08] sampir, or sea beans grows on the, on the seashore, and it has so much salt in it that I don't, I don't even need to add
+
+[34:13] salt to my salads, when I make it with that, and I like salt a lot. Uh, so, you know, definitely um, you know, you're always consuming salt. Uh, it's just a question of whether or not you add salt. So then the question is, well, um, you know, do you, do you need to add salt to food and for me, yes, you know, you do. So, for instance, the classic food that sucks without salt, it's bread, right? And so, you know, everyone in the world loves Tuscan cuisine, myself included. I love it, except for the bread, it's horrible. Right, Stasi? Come on, the bread's horrible. No, we've had this discussion. I don't mind it. It's horrible. Stasi thinks that you can sprinkle salt on Tuscan bread and all of a sudden make it real bread. I completely disagree because I have baked breads where you accidentally forget to put the salt in. How many out there does this happen to? You forget to put the salt in, and then you pray that you can make it better by adding salt. Here's why you can't, because 1st of all, salt's not throughout the dough, and 2nd of all, the salt actually affects the texture because it affects the way the gluten works. And so you'll notice that the crust on a on a saltless bread. The reason Tuscan bread looks like crap on the outside. It's that sallow looking crust is because they don't have salt. And the reason the texture is not as good is because they don't have salt. And the reason it doesn't taste good is because, can you guess why, Nastasia? It doesn't have salt. Right, because it doesn't have salt. And you can't fix those problems just by sprinkling salt on the outside. That's like rolling a turd in sequence. You know what I mean? It doesn't work. Um, Now, uh, it, you know, so another place where salt is, you know, uh, often useful, not just from a taste
+
+[35:45] standpoint is with meats, because salt actually increases the uh, water binding capacity of meat. So the, uh, you know, when you brine something, you're actually ensuring that it's going to be juicier
+
+[35:55] by uh, applying some salt to it uh, beforehand. So it's actually performing a functional characteristic there. Now, the vast majority of the, of the, you know, huge sodium intake. By the way, like our grand great grandparents generation ate a boatload more salt than we do because they had to eat everything preserved or had to eat more preserved things than we
+
+[36:13] do. And in fact, they were more heavily salt and preserved meats were more heavily salted. In the old
+
+[36:18] days than they are now because now, uh, we have, uh, refrigeration. I just read a scholarly paper. I forget what it is. I can't reference it, but they said that nothing more drastically reduced the salt intake of the
+
+[36:28] population, uh, in general than the, than the refrigerator because now all of a sudden we didn't need to salt anymore. So this, a modern idea that we consume so much more salt now, because of processed foods
+
+[36:39] in quotes, that, than we used to, is absurd, because salt used to be, like, everywhere. Everything was salted down to preserve it. Uh, you know, prior to the advent of, uh, refrigeration. So, uh, so we love salt because we need it. It also makes things taste delicious. you know, So, salt affects uh, 1st of all, you don't need the salt a lot. you don't need to make something salty to have the salt uh have a beneficial effect. Like, for instance, a little bit of salt and a drink, even if you can't taste the salt, it's
+
+[37:10] gonna round out, uh, the flavors, it changes your perception of aroma. So when you add salt to a broth, it's actually changing the aroma of the broth, because it
+
+[37:18] alters the way the volatiles are basically, like the amount of them they're captured allows things to release, the release come off and you actually get a stronger impact of volatiles in the aroma.
+
+[37:28] Uh, you know, it tends to be synergistic, so it makes other things taste better. Uh, without even necessarily having the perception of salt, and they try to get around that by adding, uh, things like MSG, which can also increase the palatability of something without adding a lot more salt, although, uh, gram per gram, MSC adds, uh, about 13rd of
+
+[37:47] sodium, that, uh, salt does because we usually get mono- monosodium glutamate. doesn't add as much salt per gram as, uh, uh, sorry, as much sodium per gram as salt does, and it's the sodium people are worried about, by the way. Most of the flavor comes from the sodium. The chloride is kind of usually along for the ride, right? Um, so, uh, but the other thing about MSG, even though it does have sodium, you typically would use a lot less MSG, then you would use salt because it's more
+
+[38:13] potent. Um, so anyway, I mean, it's a long way. I've, you know, I totally answer this question. We have kind of like, but I think it all depends. Yeah, what's what's wrong with his dad, right? Like if for health reasons or if he just doesn't like salt. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's got to be some people that don't like salt. There's only like one or 2 groups of people in the world that are known to not add any salt.
+
+[38:37] I always forget what they are. It's probably like, it's probably like some like, like Innuit culture or something like that. But again, they're eating like, you know, whale meat out of the out of the ocean. I don't even remember where they're continuing. I just made that up, but there's very few cultures in the world that don't use salt, and it's because if stuff tastes good, You know what I mean? Um, and uh, maybe I'll do some more research on it and talk about it at, at a,
+
+[38:59] a later point. And he says on another note, what do I think of uh, Grant Agis's aviary bar? Grant Agens, uh, as most of the readers will know, is the chef at, uh, Alinia, which is a, a very, very fine restaurant. I've eaten there twice, had an extraordinary meals out there. I have not been to the bar. Is it opiate trust, you know? I have no idea, no. I do not know if it's open. I hear they've had some YouTube videos up, so maybe, maybe they are, but
+
+[39:24] I'm sure whatever grant does is going to be good, but I just haven't, uh, tried it yet. Now, uh, yeah, one more question from, who's this one? Steve. Uh, and by the way, Steve uh, says, PS, thanks for, are talking about the issues of tall cooks. Uh, we're trying to get uh, Mark Ladner, right? Natasha uh. Well, maybe we'll, I'll just get his, why don't you get his comments separately and we'll just say what he said. How about that? That's good. Yeah. So yeah, so we can we can do that. But he's basically, he's a, he's a physicist, and he's interested in ice, and he was just talking about something really cool, which is he makes spherical lenses out of
+
+[40:07] ice, so he can start fires outside. That's pretty cool, right? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, you know, he says that, you know, you could basically with your hands, just take a block of ice and smooth it out. Uh, you know, you know, heating it to make a decent enough sphere to light a fire, uh, using it, which is, I think that's pretty cool. Id like to try that. Um, but so you're wondering about the, the problems of making clear ice because you need clear ice to make these, these lenses. Uh, and he, um, you know, he's talking about the difficulties in
+
+[40:39] it, and, uh, have we talked about clear ice on the radio at all, stuff here or not? I feel like we did or maybe you touched on it a little bit, but not in depth. Yeah. So basically, back in the day, uh, prior to, you know, uh, mechanical refrigeration, most ice that uh, was used in, uh, in restaurants, bars, or in ice houses, was harvested from, uh, lakes and
+
+[41:02] rivers in the wintertime, was sawn out in big blocks, and they kept in huge insulated ice houses for use throughout the year.
+
+[41:09] Now, the benefit of this kind of ice is, uh, that it's formed in thin layers,
+
+[41:13] as, you know, Steve mentioned. I mean, he knows much better than I do because he's a uh, synthesis, but it forms in thin layers, and um, what happens with forming in thin
+
+[41:21] layers, is that uh, the impurities in it, gas, and any other actual dissolved impurities, don't get integrated into
+
+[41:28] the uh, crystal, the crystal matrix of the ice. So when you're freezing in your, in your, in your freezer, here's what happens. You have an ice cube tray, it starts to freeze on the bottom. The impurities are getting concentrated in the center as as are the dissolved gases. And then at a certain point, the top of your ice cube freezes over, and then the inside, 1st of all, expands as it freezes, because
+
+[41:47] it expands as it freezes, and all the impurities are there, and the gas is there, and you have a big,
+
+[41:51] like messy, you know, cloudy, you know, ball in the middle of your ice cube. You know what I'm talking about, right? Right, right, yes. Yeah, right. So that's what's happening. So lakes and lakes, that doesn't happen because you're depositing thin layers that are constantly being
+
+[42:05] washed and the layers are built up and they're totally clear. And Steve points out, that's the same way icicles were formed, which is why icicles are also clear. So I guess you can maybe make a good lens out of that. The problem with doing it at home. is uh, is that it's just not easy, even just de-gassing your ice cube phase in a vacuum machine isn't going to necessarily, it's not going to give you clear ice because the top will freeze over as the inside expands and breaks the crystal structure and
+
+[42:31] reforms. You'll get parts that are that are cloudy. Uh, also, um, doing it just difficult or, using the stilled water won't solve the problem. The only way to really solve it is the way that the climb belt, climb belt is the
+
+[42:44] ice uh manufacturers that make the machines for ice carvers, right? So ice carvers require clear ice. Uh, and so, uh, bartenders just started using this, what they call it, climb bell eyes, which is very clear, and it basically works like a lake upside down.
+
+[42:59] They make sure that the freezing happens from the bottom of the cube up, and they keep the water circulating on the top, so that the top can't freeze over, and as it's built up slowly over the course of
+
+[43:09] a day or so, because it takes, I forget, like, between 24 and 48 hours, to freeze one of these £200 blocks and climb out, like, as it's freezing slowly up, none of the impurities are
+
+[43:18] incorporated, and they're concentrated in the water that's on top. And at the end, they just terrain that, uh, the, the impure, crappy water off the top and they're left with a block of perfectly pure crystal ice.
+
+[43:30] And so that's how it's made. Now, it's difficult to do at home, um, you know, unless you have like an anti-griddle and, you know, a chest freezer, but it's not something you can just kind of do in your
+
+[43:41] freezer, but, uh, the good news is, is that, uh, you know, clear ice looks amazing, and it's the only one that you can really carve well because it, it's very easy to
+
+[43:51] carve and it doesn't shatter. It's not really going to make your drink taste better. So that's the good news. Anyway, Stasi, how we doing on time? We're doing fine. I think we have like 2 minutes left, so say something. 2 minutes left. All right. So, so, uh, I will, you know, relay, uh, what it takes to get stopped in the Dusseldorf airport in between
+
+[44:13] flights and have basically a full body cavity search. So yeah, don't, yeah, yeah. So don't leave your job at a cooking school after you do a demo with your folding box cutter,
+
+[44:25] which by the way, like everyone in the world should have a folding box cutter in their pocket at all times. Like, in fact, the thing I hate most about traveling is that I can't have my folding box cutter with me unless I know where I can get blades for it.
+
+[44:36] So anyway, I go to JFK, which is our airport in New York. I take the box cutter out of my pocket and I just card the blade and put the empty box cutter, sans blade back in my pocket because I don't feel like I'm a human being unless I have a box cutter in my
+
+[44:48] pocket, right? So the, and you know, this probably says something bad about security in New York. I showed him the empty box cutter, I'm like, hey, it's a box cutter without a knife. What the problem? They're like, hey, right, what's the problem? Let me through. I show up in Germany and Dusseldorf, and I have to go through security again. I showed them, I was like, you know, it's got kind mess, you know, there's no, no knife in there, right? But then they took, they literally took apart everything, including my shoes, everything I own, took everything
+
+[45:14] apart to look to see whether I had stashed a blade somewhere with my box cutter. And then they're looking through it and they see a box that I brought, so I'm doing a cocktail demonstration here where we're testing a temperature and I'm doing basically a recap of the tails of the cocktail that I did with
+
+[45:29] Ebbing Clem, and you can go see that on our blog about the cocktail science post. So he finds this box with all these wires coming out of it and he, and he's, he's looking at me a little more than
+
+[45:38] cross-eyed, and then, and my German, by the way, is not so good. And then after that, he, uh, he finds a, um, I'm, you know, studying organic chemistry again, boning up on it, and I have a chemical model set in my thing, and he, he sees chemistry, wires, and a dude with a box cutter, who I'm clearly disheveled, you know,
+
+[45:59] for my flight, and so that's what it takes. That's what it takes to basically, you know, get the full smackdown in the Dusseldorf airport. So this has been your, uh, your intercontinental cooking issues episode. Thanks to Harris radio for making it happen. Thanks to Acme Fish. Thank you, Nastasia, and we'll see you next week. It's time to be patient. has
+
+[46:34] Looking for a fun night out, K1 speed puts you behind the wheel for an adrenaline
+
+[46:38] fill time, you and your friends will never forget. Off the track, the fun keeps rolling with arcade games, great food, and drinks. They even have private party rooms for your birthday parties and corporate outings. Race hard, laugh harder and claim your spot on the podium. K1 speed. More than racing, it's an experience.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] I'm Sam Edwards. I'm 3rd generation Cure Master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause of what they're doing. They're supporting family raised livestock, small family farms, certified humane, pasture raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from heritage food USA and make them into Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon,
+
+[0:28] sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or VirginiaTraditions.com.
+
+[0:48] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got
+
+[0:58] me on this corner. You're listening to Cooking Issues radio on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[1:09] Dave Arnold are host of cooking issues, and we're here with Nastasia the Hammer, Lopez. Call in all your questions to the studio at 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:19] That's 718-497-2128. So today we're being sponsored by S. Wallace Edwards, the ham company, I happen to know Sam Edwards personally, who makes that hand. Ham happens to be country Ham, particular, although I know Nastasia, you're more of a prosciutto head. That's true. Yeah, but American country ham happens to be one of my favorite subjects in the whole world. So I might maybe I'll talk for a 2nd about country ham before we get into anything else. Sam Edwards Country Ham, our sponsor today. His family has been in Surrey for, you know, I don't know, probably a couple
+
+[1:51] 100 years, something like that. Surrey is across the river from Smithfield, which is kind of the well-known name in American country hams. They don't really make a good country Hammond Smithfield anymore, but, you know, Sam Edwards really does. And, you know, he mentioned that his grandfather started the business. His grandfather actually wrote an interesting article back, I think,
+
+[2:09] in sometime in the 60s, and it was about peanut fed hogs. You used to be, you know, everyone talks about the Bayota fed hogs that you get out of Spain that make the best, you know, most delicious ham. And in fact, they do make delicious ham because the basically the acorns that these Spanish hogs eat give them a, they have a lot of unsaturated fat and it changes the fat characteristics of the ham, which means that the ham has this awesome taste that you can't really get any other way.
+
+[2:34] But the only reason that's really preserved, I think, in Spain is because the economics are such that they're not allowed to chop down the forest where
+
+[2:41] those not to produce so that they have these. They have the ability to produce it, whereas we don't. Our hams used to kick a similar level of butt. In fact, we're world kind of known. I mean, our curing techniques are amazing. And, um, so Sam Average's grandfather actually were an interesting article, I think, in the 60s. in one saying that ham production is going to hell in a handbasket because we're not feeding the peanuts anymore. We have a lower slaughter weight than we used to. Because, you know, the older pig is when you kill it, the more the enzymes, the enzyme profile
+
+[3:12] in an older hog is different from the one in a younger hog, a larger older hog, aside from being bigger, that can take more age. Also, the enzyme profile is different, which is gonna lead to a better tasting ham. So these are all things that we've done. But that aside, American curing is totally different from any other kind of
+
+[3:25] curing, ham curing. And it's a totally different product, like should not be confused with prosciutto should not be confused with serrano. Like these are like, you know, actual American treasures. And so Sam Edwards is one of the few people who's, you know, still a fairly large production. In other words, you can buy it here in New York. You know, he can ship. is USDA that is doing a very traditional, you know, great American product. And traditional with in Virginia would be kind of a heavy smoke on his hams. And you can make sure you get ones for him that are, you know, a year or older. And then actually I'm traveling tomorrow to Kentucky. tour another great hand producer, Finchfield Farms. Finchville Farms out of Kentucky is another great old producer. And, you know, a lot of the people who produced hams in Kentucky. So I think Finchville think Colonel Newsom's, which is Nancy Mahaffey's hand plays. These are people also who've been curing for 100s of years, not them personally, but their families, you know, and a lot of these guys moved to Kentucky back when Kentucky was still Virginia. Uh, so anyway, so I will be visiting um, I will be visiting Finchville Farms tomorrow, actually. And it's the 1st time I've been there, so I'm excited, along with obviously drinking a lot of bourbon. So we'll probably talk about that more next week. Although next week, Nastasia, we might be doing the show live from... live from London, huh? Our 2nd roadshow is going to be in London because next week, we're going to be out in London doing the, what's the name of the show we're doing? Nastasha? you even know? It's just called the London Cocktail Week. And yeah. So we doing rotary evaporation over there? Yes, with Ox Legion. Yeah, which is a vacuum distillation technique for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about. Uh, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, anyway, let's go on to some questions because we have some email questions from before if I can just find them. Um, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, Nastash, I've lost the email questions. The 1st one's an answer. First one's an answer. Oh, that's right. So, okay, so some of you might recall several weeks ago. We tried to answer the question. What was her name again? What was her name? Colleen was the big girl? Yeah, Colleen. She's a very tall woman and she was having problems with countertops, countertop hides. And we call Mark Ladner. Mark Ladner is the newest 4 star chef in New York City because Del Posto, his restaurant, just got upgraded to
+
+[5:40] 4 stars in the New York Times. So congratulations. And he is tall. He's 6'4. And so here's what he wrote back. We asked him, how do you deal with this problem of being very tall? He said when I was younger, I often hunched over, which was obviously horrible for my back and neck. When I built El Posto, I had a kitchen designer who recommended a 42 inch counter, which is higher than our normal, what, 36,
+
+[6:02] 35 counter, which he had recently designed for Grey Kuntz, is also, I guess, tall. And he says that this counters a lifesaver, and he says, most except for the very short Lovett. And he doesn't see any reason why it was Colleen, right? Should not be allowed to use her special adapter unless it's unsafe or unsanitary, and he hopes that that's helpful. Okay, so we have a we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hey, how it going? Going well. Awesome. Well, I've always heard that on if you burn garlic when making a tomato sauce, it's going to make your sauce bitter. I was wondering if you could tell me why. Huh. Uh, that is true story. I don't know why. Kind of caught me off guard. I mean, garlic is pretty complex and easy to burn because it's got a high sugar content.
+
+[6:47] I think that's why it burns so easy. But I don't like that acrid burnt taste that you get. I don't know exactly what's going on. It has to be like all of the interesting stuff with garlic has to do. I mean, garlic doesn't really have that much of its characteristic, um, sharp, pungent flavor until it's been cut, right? So what happens is, is that there's enzymes in the garlic, and when you cut it or crush it, those enzymes are acting on, um, there's like, I always forget the names. Alan Nin and Alice Sin and all these Ala, blah, blah, blah, like that are like these chemicals that start out being relatively
+
+[7:19] odorless, and then develop all of their all of their pungency after they're cut and then are modified more or less by cooking. And since those are the chemicals that lead to the pungency, I would think that those are also the ones that lead to kind of those acrid flavors when
+
+[7:35] they when they're cooked or when they get burnt. But I can't say for sure. There is an excellent book out on the subject. It's called, um, I believe it's called garlic and other alliums, something like that, that it's lore. I just bought it. I actually read it, but it's very dense. So I can't remember whether there was any explanation of it because it's too much to look into. But next week we have Harold, we have a list of stuff to ask Harold from the radio show. We can make one. Let's make a list. And I'll ask him that whether he knows specifically what it is because he's read that book and spoke
+
+[8:04] to that person. So he's thought a lot about that kind of a problem. As something I should know off the top of my head, but do not. I do know, however, when you pressure cook garlic. It, uh, it actually destroys a lot of the, of the pungency so that in fact, you know how even when you roast garlic. When you roast it, still, if you eat a lot of it, it comes out of your pores over the course of several
+
+[8:27] days and your coworkers don't want to be anywhere near you. Again, I know this from awful experience. When you pressure cook, garlic. Those principles are gone and you can actually eat a whole bunch of garlic without, in fact, we make sauces that are, you know, upwards of 50%
+
+[8:41] garlic, and no one has a problem with them, and it's very mellow, mellow flavor, and it's because a lot of those sulfur containing compounds that are in the
+
+[8:48] garlic. They give it its pungency are kind of destroyed by the high heat on the inside of a pressure cooker. So we will keep a list. Okay. So, um, we have Colin Gore writes in and says he has a handful of things on his mind lately, so let's look at those handful of things that are
+
+[9:05] on his mind. Collins built a vacuum chamber using a compressor harvested from a window mounted air conditioner to make a
+
+[9:11] vacuum. I love this kind of DIY kind of, you know, do it yourself kind of stuff. And he says it works wonderfully, but he's wondering about running it for more than a few minutes at a time because he's afraid he's going to burn it out. You know, I wouldn't worry about it so much. The kind of the great granddaddy of websites dealing with this problem is called the
+
+[9:29] bell jar. And Bel Jar being, you know, an old vacuum thing that you put things in vacuum, the bell jar. So the bell jar. And it's based on a bunch of articles published a long, long time ago in scientific American, the amateur scientists, which were fantastic. Like I had one when I was a kid, like how to build lasers. amazing stuff. Scientific Americans, old, amateur scientist column, freaking amazing, amazing stuff. Anyway, the Bell jar has a list of these things. And it talks a lot about making vacuum pumps cheaply out of air conditioning units and refrigeration units.
+
+[9:56] And a lot of what the capabilities of your unit are depend on whether it's a rotary pump or whether it's a piston pump. Most refrigerator compressors are, you know, piston pumps, and they're not going to operate near, you know, nearly as well at low vacuum as these as these rotary pumps are. So, uh, you know, um, so a lot a lot of air conditioners have a rotary pump. So as long as you keep the thermal overload switch on the pump, you should be fine because if it cuts out, it's not going to get hurt. You also obviously have to make sure that you didn't let the oil drain out of it. You know, otherwise it's going to burn out very quickly, but you should be able to run it. No problem. If it's overheating, you'll be able to tell because it's exposed. He also makes a good note. Please, don't just cut out a, um, you know, compressor out of an air conditioner and let the freon spray everywhere because you're opening yourself up to a fine and you're destroying the environment.
+
+[10:44] I might also say don't use a saw when you're cutting a compressor off of something because the little filings can get into the
+
+[10:50] compressor and then that's bad, bad, bad news. Colin has more questions, but 1st I think we're going to go to a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hello, it's Joe here from London, Dave. Hey, how you doing? We'll be out to see you in just a couple of, we'll be out in London in just a couple of days. Oh, great. I hope to meet up with you. We've been really inspired by your blog and this show over here. Oh, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Dave, my question is, um, I'd like to prepare um, large prawns, or I guess, langustine, or you may call them shrimp. I'm not sure. Right. I want to repair them ahead of time. Uh, sous vide, uh, and then finish them off on a grill, so I can get some kind of mail yard on them. I'm just not sure um what kind of temperature to cook them out and for how long. Right. All right. Shrimp and prawns are interesting because they contain enzymes in them that if
+
+[11:40] you, if you cook them for extended periods of time, they go mushy, they turn to a paste,
+
+[11:45] right? And so, uh, you know, vacuum is and sous vide is a very, very good way, 1st of all, to infuse flavor into into them and also to make sure that, you know, none of the flavor leeches out when you're cooking.
+
+[11:57] But you're going to want to make sure that you, um, you do it fairly quickly. You want to make sure that the, um, that it's cooked through in like, you know, I would I would keep it, if you can, under 12 minutes or something like
+
+[12:12] that. It's otherwise gonna start breaking it down. And a good thing to do is to run a test just to see what happens when you cook it for a long, long time. You'll see it just gets really, it gets really nasty. One way to do it, if you like more traditional textures, obviously, to put the bag into a very high temp water.
+
+[12:26] And that's what someone like George Prelou would do where he cooks his shellfish almost in boiling water even when it's in a vacuum bag. Another option, if you want to go more like the texture that people want off like a butter poached lobster or something like that, is to run it more like 65 degrees for like Celsius for like, you know, 10, 10 to 12
+
+[12:44] minutes, once it's out of its shell, obviously. You know what I mean? So that might be a similar thing you do with with a prawn or a shrimp, but that's going to give you a soft texture, more, you know, more akin to on the lower side of being done than on the higher
+
+[12:56] side. And then obviously you could firm it up with your finishing step, you know, with your finishing sear step, which is going to put more of a, you know, more of a crust on the outside and get it done. But you really, the key thing with it is just to not cook it for too long because it's going to
+
+[13:10] be, and cool it down quick after it comes out because it's just going to be a complete nightmare to you. You're gonna get, you cannot believe how bad the texture of a long cooked, uh, you know, shrimp or prawn can be. I mean, it doesn't always happen, but it happens enough and you have to spit it out. It's like just terrible. Yeah, that's truly what I was trying to avoid by doing the sous vide step because I find that if I do it directly on the grill, if I'm doing like a large, say, like a 10, 12 prawn,
+
+[13:38] I can easily overcook it and it gets very mushy and not a pleasant flavor at
+
+[13:44] all. Right. But you're going to flash finish them on this one, right? You just going to pre-cook them and then flash finish them? Yes, but I'd like to do them in the shell because the shell adds a nice flavor when
+
+[13:54] it's when it's grilled. So, will that change the cooking times, you think? No, not much. The shells are usually pretty thick. You can do it head on too or no? Yes, head on to. Yeah, because the head's the best part anyway. But the, uh, not the best part. You know, it's delicious. what I mean is. But one thing you want to be really careful of is that is that the shells on shrimp and prawns almost always pop vacuum bags. So you're going to want to either double bag or wrap them in something to protect the bag and to make sure that you have, you know, the air doesn't come back into the chamber too fast because you're
+
+[14:28] going to start popping your bags. And after you pack them, you're going to want to let them sit for, it's good to let them sit to marinate anyway. If you're going to use like oil and salt and pepper or something. I mean, I don't know what your recipe is, but, you know, inside the bag, you know, then you're going to want to let it sit for a half hour, so not just to pick up the flavor of whatever you put in, but also to make sure you don't have any holes in it,
+
+[14:47] right? Then I would, I would go for a fairly quick cook, like, uh, like maybe 10 to, I don't know, the size of them, but like 10, 10 minutes, 10 to 12
+
+[14:56] at, like 65 or something like that, and pull them out, cool them down, and then do your, do your flash finish almost from
+
+[15:02] cold because they'll already be cooked. And so you can cook them as at high heat as you want to get that nice color and taste on the outside of the shell without having to worry about cooking the inside.
+
+[15:10] Perfect, Dave. Perfect. Thank you so much. And please tell us your results. Write in and tell us whether it works this way. I can see whether that worked. Okay. Maybe even put some photos in as well. Sounds great. Thanks so much. Thanks, Dave, bye. Oh, and we're going to our 1st commercial break, but call in your questions at 718-497-2128,
+
+[15:30] 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feel, brother? You feel good? Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? Now, call your name, I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. This is a public service announcement from added value. Join us Saturday, October 16th at the Red Hook Community Farm. Celebrate the harvest, visit Brooklyn's largest urban farm, delicious seasonal foods from local restaurants, EC,
+
+[16:06] the Good Fork, Kevin's, the Lobster Pound, and Rice. And of course, pick up your produce at the Red Hook Farmer's Market. For more information called 718-855-5531. That's 718-855-5531 or visit www.addedashvalue.org. This has been a public service announcement from added value. Now I want everybody, left bread blowing by 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, that's going through that. Now, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. You know, James Horn, moment. Red, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! And welcome back to cooking issues, calling your questions right now. It is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 coming to you live from Roberta's in Brooklyn, New York. Okay, we have some more of Collins questions here. He has quite a few questions. We're going to try and hit them all. So Colin, to refresh you, if you didn't listen to the 1st segment, Colin built his own vacuum machine, his own vacuum chamber vacuum machine using a pump out of a compressor out of an air conditioner.
+
+[17:26] And there's lots of over the past couple of years, people who have done this kind of DIA chambers, but not just for food packing for like making models, for doing vacuum bagging, like when they're doing resin,
+
+[17:35] a lot of good reasons to build vacuum pumps out there and a lot of sites with a lot of great information on it. So he asked the question, can the walls of quartz size canning jars withstand a full vacuum, 14 PSI. Oh, yes, they can. In fact, I use this trick all the time when we're, if you have a vacuum machine and you don't have what's called gas flush. So when you're using a vacuum machine and you have gas flush, it means that you suck a vacuum in the bag,
+
+[17:58] but, you know, if you if you would then seal it and let the air come back in, let's say you had potato chips. Bam, the potato chips will get smashed when the air came back and it would just get shattered and you have potato dust, which is not what you're looking for, right? So you have something called gas flush. And what that is, is that you suck all the air out. So all the moisture is gone. So now your potato chips are not going to go, and there's no oxygen, so the potato chips aren't going to go rancid. And they're not going to get, they're not going to get soft and nasty. And then you inject a neutral gas back in. Usually nitrogen, you know, sometimes depending what you're doing, CO2 or some crazy mix depending what you're doing. And then you seal it. And then when the air comes back in, there's a neutral gas in there so that it's bag is still puffy. Your potato chips don't get smashed. And in fact, your potato chips are protected because they're inside of a pillow. So anyway, so this is a technique that you can use. If you don't have gas flush, which we just got, actually, in our new, we have a new vacuum machine to school, and we'll be reporting on that at some point, but the, if you don't have gas flush, court and larger liter canning jars are a very good way to do it. I would get the, and they can take the pressure, no problem. What I would do is I would get the ones, not the ones that have the thin metal lid that you then pry up. And the reason is that they seal once great. And then, like, after you open the lid to pry it up, like, made that noise when it pops up. A lot of times they won't re-seal. I like the old style ones that have a glass lid and a glass base and a rubber gasket, and then you just set the rub, set the lid with the gasket on top of your canning jar, take all the metal hardware off of
+
+[19:26] it. It's just going to get in your way, suck the vacuum, and then when the vacuum comes back, the lid gets smashed back onto the top, and the actual vessel takes the pressure for you, not your potato
+
+[19:36] chips, whatever. The heck else you're going to pack, and those vacuums, I've had them last for months and months. Sometimes you'll get a bad seal on those, but you can usually tell within, you know, a couple of hours to a
+
+[19:46] day. The seal on that jar is not going to be good. How do you do without a vacuum machine with those rubber seals? Well, the rubber, when you're canning with those things, usually the rubber seals, they have a lid on it, right? So you'd boil them. And, you know, you boil them. Um, I guess you start boiling them and then maybe seal them while they're boiling and then they, and then as
+
+[20:04] the, as the, as it cools down, you'll suck a partial vacuum on the top and then you have to
+
+[20:09] open it. I mean, it's like, I guess it's an old, it's, I've never actually used them to can, I've only used them to package things. But they're great. You can get them in most in most houseware stores. And we use them all the time. So if you're bringing something that's crisp, like apple chips or potato chips or
+
+[20:23] methyl cell F50, you know, meringue pus, which is what we do a lot. Um, you know, you can keep them for a long time and you can, you know, travel in a rainstorm, you know, through
+
+[20:32] Louisiana in a bayou. It doesn't matter. And the stuff's not going to go bad on you. So it's actually a really good technique for bringing stuff with you. Not as good as having gas flush, but um, because it's just a pain in the butt, but anyway. So, on the subject of vacuums, Colin wants to know that he's making apple chips and he wants to, he wants to get that same kind of same foamy texture that you get from, um, from
+
+[20:54] doing uh, freeze drying. Uh, and he wants to know how can, how can you do that? Well, that's a pain in the butt, Colin, because freeze drying is a really good technique for doing that. Nothing else really approximates freeze drying the way freeze drying does. So the way a freeze dryer works is you freeze something,
+
+[21:09] uh, you know, usually at a fairly low temperature to, you know, minimize the destruction of stuff to the cells quickly and low temperature. And then you let it, you put a very strong vacuum on it and you let it heat up slowly and that tell the water inside of it basically
+
+[21:24] sublimates. And what that means is you put it in a condition where the water doesn't want to go from a solid to a liquid and then to a gas. It just evaporates directly from a solid to a gas. And so what that means is that the structure of the product is held rigidly by the ice until the water leaves it, at which point it maintains its structure. And that's why you have things that look pretty much life size, but they have no more water in them. They're very porous, they're crunchy, they're great, and that's freeze drying. The problem is, the equipment is usually somewhat expensive. You need a fairly good vacuum pump. You also need what's called a cold trap because everything that you, everything you suck off, you then need to recondense back. So you need a fairly cold cold trap. I've tried to do it kind of a ghetto style freeze dryer using my rotary evaporator, but my pump isn't quite good enough. My vacuum pump isn't quite good enough. So, um, you know, some people have Alex Talbot and ideas and food has one. Um, you know, a couple of restaurants have them. I think, I think maybe Laurent Gron might have one in L2O. I dont know anyway. a freeze dryer. Someday someday I'll have one. Anywho, so but there is an interesting patent that's been applied for. I think it's still under patent. So if you do this, you're going to be breaking all kinds of patent laws. I don't really care about that, but there's a technique called, uh, uh, basically fruit puffing using vacuum and then carbon dioxide. And if you are the kind of person who can rip apart an air conditioner and build a vacuum
+
+[22:49] chamber, then you are also the kind of person who can do this. And hopefully, I don't have time to do it. So maybe you can do it and tell me, tell me how it works. So here's what you do. First thing you do is you partially dehydrate a product, tell it's down to like about 60% 20 to 60% water. You can do that with a standard dehydration, or you can use what's called osmotic dehydration. What that is, is you put your fruit into a very intense sugar syrup, and that draws the water out osmotically. That's osmotic dehydration. So you can do it that way. You could do it with a partial dehydration step. But the trick is to get rid of, I think, about half the water. So a little under half the water. Then you take your apple slices at this point. And you put them into your vacuum chamber and you suck a full vacuum on them for a little bit, right? Then you put a CO2 tank on and you pressurize it to about, you know, a little over 200 PSI, right? So, uh, and that's the minimum is about they, in the patent literature. The minimum is about 200, 220 PSI, a CO2. And you want to leave that for like 60 minutes under the high pressure CO2. So what's happening is a CO2 is going into the fruit and it's basically getting, it's going all the way into the cells. And then you want to vent it over the course of like 30 seconds. So after that 60 minutes, you vent it over the course of 30 seconds and they're rapidly escaping CO2 takes with it the water and puffs the fruit up at the same time.
+
+[24:12] So that's dehydrates, and then any further dehydration you could probably do in a normal dehydrate or something like that. So it's a room temperature technique. So it's similar to freeze drying that way. And it doesn't require as much expensive equipment as a freeze dryer does. So if you can try this vacuum, then CO2 puffing colin, I would be much obliged if you then tell us how it works and post pictures.
+
+[24:33] But be extremely careful with pressure vessels. Make sure that you are using a pressure vessel that can handle the pressure. I don't want anyone blowing something up and, you know, basically creating a pipe bomb and killing themselves over something I said. So, you know, certain, you know, schedule 40 pipe, which is a standard pipe you get will not handle these kinds of
+
+[24:49] pressures safely. Uh, schedule 80 pipes, some schedule 80 pipes can handle it. So just anyway, so be careful, make sure you know what you're doing. you know, and just, but I'd love to see someone try that, even though I think you'd be infringing on a bunch of patents and, you know, that they might come and arrest you. But, you know, again, hopefully not. Um, and Collins, last question is, uh, he's making an alginate bath and he wants to know how long he can keep it. All right, so I don't know have we talked about this ever? The algernate bath? No, I don't even think you talked about the pancakes. The pancakes? No, all right. Well, we'll talk about this then. Okay, okay. So sodium alginate is kind of very famous. It's made from seaweed. And what it does it's the stuff that people make little balls out of in restaurants, like they call it caviar, blah, blah, blah. And the standard thing is you take, and by the way, it's also how they make the pimento on the inside of an olive. It's how they make fake onion rings. It's how they you know, some dog foods are made this way. And so you take this seaweed, sodiumalginate, and you mix it in, and whenever it touches anything with calcium in it, it all of a sudden turns to a gel,
+
+[25:48] right? So the standard technique that, uh, you know, it was used for forever to make fake blueberries and it was used also by science teachers who, you know, do it in science, but the famous early restaurant application was for on, uh, Adrian was actually coming to speak at the French culinary
+
+[26:01] today, later today, he's going to be signing books and coming to the coming to the FCI. So Faran, you know, famously made melon caviar out of Alginet and Alginet in restaurants was born,
+
+[26:12] right? Now, the problem with alginate is, is that it doesn't really have a great texture or taste, and so in fact, it steals taste, it's like a flavored thief. So Alginate, and also the other problem is that you make these balls, you drop alginate into calcium, it forms this beautiful sphere, but then over the course of the next couple of minutes,
+
+[26:29] it turns solid. And once it turns solid, it's completely unpleasant. If it doesn't pop in your mouth, it's unpleasant. So then the next step, as it, you know, chefs started doing what's called reverse alginate. And so in reverse alginate, Instead of dropping alginate into a calcium bath and forming those little balls, you're dropping calcium into an
+
+[26:46] alginate bath. And then you get a little film of algerinate around it, but the inside stays liquid forever, right? And so, and so that is kind of, I think it's a better technique from a food standpoint. But then you have these alginate baths sitting around. And the question is what, how long can you keep that alginate bath without it going bad? I've never kept one longer than about 2 or 3 days. But a lot of it depends on how heavily it's used, how much calcium, you know, gets touches it. And you have to use something called a sequestran. And so what a sequestrian is, is a sequestrian, sucks up the calcium that's inside of your solution and stops it from causing the
+
+[27:23] alginate to react until there's so much calcium there that a reaction happens. And the 2 good, I mean, sodium citrates, kind of the sequestrian that people just have lying around. It's not so good. Sodium citrate's also a buffer, which is good, but it's kind of crap. You really want to use sodium hexametaphosphate. I'll say that again because that's a pain in the butt, sodium, hexametaphosphate. hexametaphosphate, is that right? Anyway, call it shimmp, A-S-H-MP, shimmp. And a little dabble duty on that one. You know, you get yourself a couple 100 grams of that and that's a lifetime supply of shrimp. And put it into your into your alginate bath, and it should last a good long, a good long time. We actually did a demo recently. Nastasia and I for, what the heck was that show called? Uh, foodography. Yeah, for the cooking channel. For the cooking channel. I mean, it's not, it's not out yet or anything, but what we did with that was, we, we wanted to do like our version of the McGriddle kind of, which is, you know, for those of you that, and I don't, I don't, you know, I've never had a McGriddle, but it's
+
+[28:18] basically, McDonald's puts like crystals of maple syrup or goop, some sort of maple syrup goop on the inside of their pancake. And the reason they're doing that is because the pancake becomes, I think, a sandwich. Yeah, with egg inside. Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Anyway. So what we did is we made, we did reverse alginate. We mixed calcium with maple syrup and then put it into algenet. So we had these little balls of maple syrup that then when you bit into them, they pop. You actually get a pop of maple syrup, and we folded a bunch of them into a pancake batter, but I'm a pancake batter, your standard
+
+[28:47] buttermook pancake better, and cook them. they were actually pretty good, I thought. Yeah, no they were delicious. They were delicious. You made them into silver dollars. Yeah, right. Little silver dollar pancakes. So take that McDonald's. But anyway, so it should, your alginate bath should last a good, long time. We're going to go to a break, Dave. We are? All right. Well, we're going to come back from our 2nd session, but call in your questions to
+
+[29:09] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:33] Give up the name of all the bed! You know what? When I hear a boob like this, boo. Oh, I say, I got to get... Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, man. Hey, man. Look at you. Some kind of groove like this. You know? No, no, I
+
+[30:16] need the grit.
+
+[30:24] job, job, job. Welcome back to cooking issues. Calling your questions too, 718-497-212-8718-497-2128. We're gonna be here for about another 15 minutes. And by the way, we mentioned the list we're going to keep of questions we're going to ask McGee. in Japan right now, or we would call and ask him right now. But the man himself is coming to the French culinary for his class next
+
+[30:48] week, the 21st and 22nd of October. And there are still slots available for those of you that want to come meet the man in person and take the
+
+[30:56] two-day McGee lecture series class at the French Culinary Institute. It's a class unlike any other, actually. We going to be doing some Ikigime, killing some fish. We might be doing, what else are we gonna do? getting a giant lobster. I don't know where they're going to do a giant lobster. We're going to definitely do some lime juice. It's a class unlike any other. Let's just put it that way. You can go check it out on the French culinary website, which is, I don't know, Frenchculinary.com, right? I think so. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, I have a question from Patrick Brawley. And he was wondering, uh, in general, what percentage of ascorbic acid do you use as an
+
+[31:27] antioxidant, uh, and so the thing is ascorbic acid is, it's vitamin C, right? So, and we use it all the time when we're, when we're, you know, doing fruits like apples or anything else, it's going to turn brown, we put ascorbic acid in to prevent it from turning brown. In fact, we put a scorbic acid into apple juice as we make it. It'll stay green and fresh tasting until it actually spoils. It'll never go brown. It'll never have that oxidized apple taste. And the question of percentage is an interesting one. I spoke to Nils about it actually this morning. We always just add by I. We've never actually measured how much ascorbic acid we're doing. It's not hypercritical how much you use it, but I did some
+
+[32:07] research and usually how much you use depends on your application. So if you're going to make a, let's say you're cutting apples and you're going to put ascorbic acid into
+
+[32:14] the water and you're going to try to try to keep it, then it's usually a higher dose. Or if you're going to dehydrate it then afterwards, you want the ascorbic acid
+
+[32:22] to enough to get on the Apple to have it really make a difference. Then you're going to probably use something on the order of 6 grams a liter.
+
+[32:30] something like that, right? But if you're adding it to juice, then you probably need a lot less. You probably need like maybe half of that, like 3 grams per
+
+[32:39] liter or, you know, something like that. But we usually just add like, you know, a teaspoon or so to per quart or something like that or less. But, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't really affect the flavor that much. Ascorbic acid is a much lower, has a much lower impact on flavor than like citric acid, which brings me to my next point, never confuse citric acid
+
+[32:58] and ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. Scorbic acid is the antioxidant. Citric acid, and it does not taste like lemons. It has an acidic taste, but it doesn't taste like lemons. Citric acid does not have the same antioxidant power as ascorbic acid. Citric acid does taste like the acid in lemons, right? But they often confused. Sour salt that you buy in the supermarket is citric acid, right? You want to make sure you get ascorbic acid. And when you buy ascorbic acid, if you go to GNC or whatever, your vitamin store and you buy vitamin C powder or pills, you want to make sure you get the straight stuff and
+
+[33:36] not stuff that's like got rose hips and all this other nonsense because that's going to add flavor and you're really not looking to add flavor to your product.
+
+[33:44] Wait, so if you're going to make apple cider and you put it in there. Is it not going to turn the apple cider brown? It's not only not going to turn the apple cider brown. It's not going to taste like apple cider. taste like fresh apples, right? So the, so the, so when we're doing work where we want the apple, we want the characteristic flavor of an apple, like let's say we're juicing, uh, like, you know, my
+
+[34:05] favorite Ashmead's kernel, right? I want the juice to taste, that's an apple variety. And I want the, and by the way, Nastasia and I next week when we go to London, we're going to go to the Broguedale collection, which
+
+[34:15] is Cornell has the finest collection of biggest one, I mean, and also finest, I guess. collection of apples in the world, but they also have they have a lot of non-culinary apples. The Broguedale, which is, you know, you know, the UK's Apple collection in Kent,
+
+[34:29] which is outside of London, they have the largest collection of culinary apples in the world. So Nastasia and I are going to go there, and I'm going to eat so many apples
+
+[34:37] that, um, that basically they have to shove a, like, a needle in my stomach and, like, evacuate all of the craziness. I'm gonna eat apples until I pass out, basically. I'm going to take, I've become allergic to apples actually over the last couple of years. So I'm going to bring a whole bunch of Benadryl with me. And I'm just going to, I'm going to wait until my throat starts to swell. I going to inject myself with epinephrine and take Benadryl because I'm there to eat as many apples as is humanly possible and we'll report
+
+[35:03] back. Anyway, so if you're juicing Ashmeats kernel, which I hope to taste next week. Because our supplier of Ash means kernel gut was destroyed this year because there was a killing frost in parts of the Northeast this year. Anyway, so, when you're juicing it and you want that taste of the fresh apple. If you want the juice to taste like you just been into that apple, minus the crunch, then you use a scorbic acid and it's going to retain its original color and its original flavor. It's not the flavor we associate with apple juice. The flavor we associate with apple juice and apple cider is that brown flavor, because the oxidation doesn't just change the color. It also changes the flavor. And so you only add it if you're looking for that fresh flavor, and you don't add it if you want that, that, you know, cider and or and or juice flavor. But that said, I love that fresh flavor and it makes really great mixers. And so if you're juicing your own apples, we use, we go through ascorbic acid like it's, like it's going out of style. Uh, the other question, Patrick Cat, is he was he was trying to uh, uh, make an
+
+[36:01] agar gel and a lot of uh, hydrocolor cushion system. Yeah. Well, you're having the class coming up too. I would push the class, but it's sold out. Yeah, it's sold out. Like we do a hydrocollage class at school where we teach you how to use all these things like Agar, Xanthan. Also, Meeklu, which is translutaminates. We're going to show you how to use SPL, which is the enzyme we used to do clarifications, all this stuff. great. But unfortunately, I think the class, I mean, maybe it's not sold out. Check it on the frenchculinary.com. I think it's sold out. I'm not sure. Um, Anyway, so, uh, he's making Patrick's making an agar gel. Agar is another seaweed gel. It's a great one. I highly recommend that, you know, if you're just starting playing with hydrocolloids, use Agar because you can use it to clarify, you can use it to set gels, you can use it to make fluid gels, which are
+
+[36:44] one of my favorite things to do with hydrocollids in the kitchen. But he wants to make, the problem with Agar is Agar is brittle, right? So it breaks very easily. He's trying to increase the elasticity. And he says, uh, you know, and typically you would do that by adding another gum called locust bean gum, another natural
+
+[36:58] gum, that one's basically ground up seeds. Um, and so they, the question is, is that he doesn't want to use, uh, and the locust being gum basically, uh, just modifies the agar, so it's less brittle, right? So it's a lot of times if you add like a thickener like that to a gel. So thickeners, locust being gum, agars, a gel, you can make it a little bit softer. And he says, is there anything else you can use? Well, because he says LBG, locust Bingum, in the biz, we call it LBG. That it's too expensive. I don't know what the per pound cost is on LBG when you're buying
+
+[37:28] it, but you're not going to use that much. I would go ahead and buy the LBG. I mean, unless you're make, because, you know, £one of LBG should be more than enough to do 200, you know, 200 more, £300
+
+[37:40] of just as a softener of Agar gel. So I don't know what you're charging, what they're charging for. I mean, check terrace spice in the US. I don't know, or the sanctuary. They sell it, but the problem is you can go with a much cheaper gum, like Guar, but Guar tastes terrible. Guar's another bean. It's very similar to locust bean gum, not quite as good, probably at modifying the texture, but it will work. The problem with Guar is, like I say, is it tastes horrible. Unless you buy flavor free guar from TIC gums, but I don't know how cheap the TIC gums
+
+[38:13] flavor free guar is. But that is one way around it. So hopefully that is helpful. And we have one last question from Norway. Uh, so, uh, Eric from with the real spelling with the K. I like that anyway. So Eric from Norway, writes in, and he's making, he's in a restaurant in Norway, and he's making a lot of lobster stock, and he's making a lobster
+
+[38:37] stock and then reducing it for use later. And he says that he's getting a good, um, he's getting a good taste out of the lobster stock, presumably he's doing a traditional way, which is you break up the lobster shells. where you roast and roast and or break up or both, I don't know, whichever order doesn't really matter till you get some color on them, and then you break them up and then you cook them in liquid to extract the flavor from the shells,
+
+[38:59] right? That's typically, then you would strain out the shells, and then you would, and you know, use the stock. After that, he reduces it and makes it makes a reduction out of it. He says it's usable, but it doesn't taste like fresh lobster. Do you have a better way to do it? And can you do it in a pressure cooker because he needs an excuse to get one. Well, I will do anything I can. Send me a menu. I will give you an excuse to buy a pressure cooker, but this is not that excuse
+
+[39:21] because, um, and I was talking to Nils about this actually, uh, earlier today. You don't, one of the main problems people have when they make a lot, any sort of crustacean
+
+[39:30] stock is they boil the, uh, they boil the shells too long and they, the, all of a sudden the stock will take on this like horrible, we ascribe it. I't know, technically whether it is, but Nils and I always call it the calcium taste. And all of a sudden starts to taste, not like the shellfish itself, but like literally like you're chewing on shells.
+
+[39:48] We ascribe that to like maybe the calcium being leeched out. So while I've never done it, so I'm always horrified. I'm always making sure that people don't leave the shells in my stocks too long when we're doing it because I dread that taste. Once you pull it out and you reduce it, that's fine. You never going to get that taste. But, um, But anyway, so Nils, so don't use a pressure cooker on that one because I'm almost guaranteeing you that the higher temperature is going to cause an increased release of of that stuff and you're going to get that taste.
+
+[40:15] I can't, I'm almost guaranteeing it because I haven't actually done it, but that's my feeling. That's my strong feeling that that's what's going to happen. Um, but Nil said that you, because he had tested this. I asked him whether he could get a fresher flavor. If you don't roast the shells beforehand, you're not going to have as intense a flavor, but maybe it's going to be okay because you're going to reduce it, but it might be closer to a fresh lobster flavor.
+
+[40:37] Another thing, you know, you know, um, Eric could ask whether he can clarify the stock and is he going to lose a lot of flavor out of it. I don't think he's going to lose a lot of flavor if you clarify your stock, like doing a gel clarification like that. But if you're preserving the oil, you say, you know, the oil on the top of the stock and he takes the oil off, he emulsifies it back into the stock anyway. If you're going to emulsify oil back into the stock, it's part of a reduction, I don't necessarily see the
+
+[41:00] and clarifying it because you're, you're just, it's going to make it unclear once you emulsify the oil in anyway. So if you're going to have oil in it, I don't see the point of clarifying it, but clarifying the water phase by
+
+[41:12] itself isn't, I don't think, going to damage the flavor that much. It might make it cleaner, a little lighter, but cleaner. One last suggestion I have for you to really extract some flavor out of it is you might consider breaking the shells up, either roasting them or not, depending on what flavor you want. And then doing circulating some butter in the shells 1st to extract some of the oil soluble flavors, basically making like a lobster butter, reserve that, then do a stock with that, suck out all the water soluble stuff, then reduce that, then do your
+
+[41:40] emulsifying, like almost like you were finishing the reduction with the with the basically lobster butter you've
+
+[41:45] made. And then you should get the maximum amount of flavor out of those shells
+
+[41:50] without, uh, hopefully without sucking out the the evil nasty calcium bits. And, you know, if you do it right, you should be able to get, you know, maybe a fresher flavor.
+
+[41:58] Like maybe you could also maybe do the butter poach before you do the uh, before you, but do the butter poach before you roast them and then roast them and then you could do all sorts of
+
+[42:06] combinations. But again, I'm very curious as to what happens. So, you know, you should write in, hopefully, and tell us and tell us what happened. don't put it in the pressure cooker. But I love pressure cookers again. give you any excuse. Ask me any other question. I'll tell you you need a pressure cooker but not for that one. One last question I had, actually came into the blog, but I'll just answer it here, is, can you make bananas sustino without a centrifuge, and can you do it with Agar clarification? So for those of you that haven't come to any of our events recently, One of our favorite new drinks. In fact, we did it at the Heritage radio network, you know, fundraiser a couple weeks ago, is Bananas Hustino. And, uh, so, uh, and the name is too, the derivation of the name is too silly to go into now, but basically, we
+
+[42:46] make a rum banana sustino, and we make a bourbon banana sustino. Uh, and uh, so what you do is, is you blend uh, bananas. So when you're doing bourbon bananas, you know, it's 5 it's 5 bananas per liter of bourbon, and you blend them. You add a little bit of our magical enzyme, Pectinex, SPL, which is, you know, a genius. In fact, it doesn't, that recipe doesn't work without it because we tested it at the New York culinary
+
+[43:11] experience the event we did. What was it, last week? Was that only last week? Holy, holy crap. Anyway, so you blend it together, you put it in a centrifuge, and you spin it at 4000, you know,
+
+[43:20] G's for like, you know, 15 minutes, and you get this delicious, clear bourbon with banana in it, and then we make ice cubes that are
+
+[43:31] basically either, if we're going to use it today, it's brown sugar, lemon, and water. If we're going to use it tomorrow and vanilla. It's brown sugar, citric acid, and, you know, water and vanilla, if we're going to use it later. Anyway, and so it's a great drink, and it's garnished with candied ginger. It's great. We love it. Anyway, so that particular drink. needs a centrifuge, but you could do an agar clarification of it. I don't know what your yield is going to be. So you might have to add, uh, you I mean, your yield might be not. I mean I know your yield won't be as good. So what you would do, and the other problem with agar clarification with bourbon is that if you don't have access to liquid nitrogen, the bourbon won't freeze.
+
+[44:10] So, oh, but you can do quick agar clarification. I was thinking freeze, though. My brain just went on Zorch. You could do quick agar. So then what you would do is you would blend the bananas and the bourbon, you would, I would take some water, right? I would hydrate. So let's say I'll give we'll do an actual recipe here, right? Let's say you blend, what do you think? I don't know, like 200 grams of bananas. and a liter of bourbon. So that's roughly 1200 milliliters, right? Let's say you took 400 mils of water. Uh, what is that, 1800? Yeah. shoot. 1800? No, two, six. 1600. Well, I can't do the math. Anyway, then 0.2% of that. So let's say it was 2 liters. Let's say you had 2 liters of stuff. You would take, uh, um, you know, uh, 4 grams of agar. You would then hydrate that in the water portion. Don't add the water to the bourbon and blend the bananas, hydrate it in your water portion. Make sure that you put the agar into the water cold, make sure it boils, and then simmers for a couple of minutes to make sure it's hydrated, temper your bourbon back, and bananas back into the water, and then let that set in the, uh, and once it sets, break it up with a whisk,
+
+[45:18] and, like, gently pass it through cheese cloth. Again, I don't know what your yield will be, but it should get a similar result. I mean, the reason we use a centerfuge is I have three. Well, and the events are usually upwards of 300 people attending. So. Yeah, I mean, you could definitely make it at home this way. You know, but like our yield is just so high using the, you know, we get almost 0 loss when we do it
+
+[45:40] uh, in the centerfusion. So that's the reason we use the centrifuge, but you can definitely make bananas Custino at home using Agar and bananas and bourbon and I almost guarantee you it will work.
+
+[45:55] Right? No? All right. So next week, save up your questions. We will be doing live from London, but unlike last week when we did it. Uh, we are going to be uh, both Nastasia and I will both be in London. And so I think Jack is going to be our local, our local host. Is that true? Jack, our intrepid engineer, who doesn't come on the air very often, but runs the show here, basically. Without it, we wouldn't have it. But before we go, I will leave you with this one thing. So we went, we did an event on last Saturday. yesterday, two, 3 days ago. Now, what was the name of the event again? Does live fit or die? No, fun fit in the city. Fun fit, live fit or die? Where'd you get that? It's crazy. Fun fit in the city. Anyway, we were at the discovery the discovery zone is called, right? It's a school. It's a charter school in Harlem on 125th Street and was it Madison or 5th? I forget. Between. Yeah. Anyway, so it's actually an amazing school. We went to visit. really incredible. It's like, it's a huge place. It looks amazing. Like, it's kind of school I wish I could have gone to when I was a kid. Anyway, we were doing an event there for the Liberty Science Center and the Food Network who were putting an event together and they were talking about nutrition. And so they asked, uh, you know, they asked us to go up and do, uh, do, you know, do a demonstration that somehow had something to do with nutrition for like a couple 100
+
+[47:12] people and immediately, of course, geneemic acid popped into my head. So genemic acid is the thing we use that erases your sense of sweep.
+
+[47:19] So we passed out, you know, a bunch of gymmic acid, which is a leaf, basically, from the
+
+[47:24] Gymnema Silvestri, it's a plant from India. Lone Oakley as the sugar destroyer. And, uh, and you eat this incredibly awful tasting, uh, leaf powder. And for about half an hour, you can't taste anything sweet at all at all. No sweetness. And so we passed out the powder and along with bananas, not bananas, justino. because it was all kids, so no liquor, unfortunately. Strawberries, marshmallows, chocolate, sugar, honey, and I think a couple other things. Anyway, we passed them out in bags. And you know, we're basically trying to show people, you know, what food items taste like without the sugar in it.
+
+[47:59] And we actually do that demo in the McGee class. Anyway, so we had a bunch of people there and then I was on stage and a lot, by the way, like we opened it, right? So we were kind of the opening band. But, uh, you know, they had Rachel Ray was on next and Mehmed Oz and some guy from Men's Health, who I can never, I don't remember his
+
+[48:14] name and that's Alonso Morning. real. Yeah, I mean a real dude. Anyway, it's like real, like real people. Anyway, so, you know, unlike us. And, uh, so, so I'm sitting there and I felt bad that, you know, that the people didn't have more to eat. And plus there was a huge bowl of oranges on the on the counter. And so I open up the orange, so I can taste the orange, oh, pineapple juice. I taste the orange to see kind of how bad the orange tastes without sugar, it was awful. And, uh, and so then I'm stupidly, I'm sitting here eating an orange and now I feel like a bad host because I have all these people out in the audience and they don't have any
+
+[48:48] oranges. And of course, I have nowhere near enough oranges for like all the people in the audience. And like an idiot, I say, oh, because I'm eating this orange. Oh, would any of you like to have an orange? And of course, everyone's hand shoot up, right? Immediately. So I'm like crap. And so now I'm like, you know, like the t-shirt gun lady, you know, I'm like hurling oranges out into the audience. Now, like, I'm not exactly like
+
+[49:11] captain, catch and throw here. You know what I mean? In fact, I told this one guy. I was like, sir, you know, I'm not very good at throwing things. I hit. I got him, fine. He was a catch. So then my biggest fear was I was gonna, and in fact, I think I said, it's like, I'm going to beam someone with one of these damn oranges. And I hit a lady square in the head with an orange.
+
+[49:32] I bounced the orange straight off the top of her head. I was like, and like, I saw her, her hands were there. It wasn't actually a bad throw. Maybe it was a little too much of a line drive to her, but her hands were
+
+[49:41] there and the hand didn't close around the orange in time and it bounced off of her head and the lady behind her caught it. So his total, total orange pandemonium, but I think no one came up and tried to beat the crap out of me afterwards. So I think they were... Yeah, anyway, so, yeah, so that was, it was a lot of fun, and hopefully those guys got something out of it. Anyway, so get your questions ready for cooking issues coming to you live from London next week. This has been cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards. Fine Country Ham. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. 20 minutes late.
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+[0:00] This episode of cooking issues has been proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market reminds you that every bite has a story, so whether it's a tomato, a muffin, or a
+
+[0:08] T-bone steak, your conscious food choices can change the planet. Because at Whole Foods Market, every single purchase you make helps us support things like animal welfare, organic agriculture, equitable
+
+[0:19] trade, and energy offsets. Let's think before we eat. Let's retake our plates.
+
+[0:29] Vicious fish vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where. Hello, welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues, coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network. I am not in the studio today. We're coming live to you from London Heathrow Airport as Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez and I are waiting to fly back to New York City, but we're still here live to take all of your cooking related
+
+[1:05] questions. Uh, call in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Now, unfortunately, Nastasia is sitting next to me and we can't have 2 of our cell phones calling it at once. So she's going to have to just make comments next to me from the from the peanut gallery, but we're going to try to do the best we can. Actually, Nastasia and I, we're both over here doing a demonstration, uh, for uh, a rotary evaporation here in London, which is interesting. We had to hang out with our other good rotary evaporation friend, Tony Congigaro, uh, and uh, it was a good time, right? Yeah. So, uh, we have some email questions, thankfully. I'll just say about the call number, calling your questions to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. Uh, so, uh, Marvwood House from Belfast UK writes in. I'm hoping to get an ISI cream whipper for Christmas. Can the same use CO2 and N2O cartridges? I would like to use the same unit for infusion and for carbonation. Okay, so 1st of all, what we're talking about is the uh, the, you know, the things that you buy to make whipped cream. They're made by ISI, which is a company out of Austria. Uh, anyway. So they have the ones that are made for soda water, which are, you know, the soda sizons, and they have the ones that are meant for whipped cream, right? And the main difference between those two. is the soda ones have uh, a, uh, like a tube. 1st of all, the neck is much smaller. And they have a tube that goes down to the bottom of them so that when you press the little lever to dispense it, the liquid is forced through the tube and out of the
+
+[2:35] nozzle, just like, you know, in the 3 stooges, everyone gets sprayed in the face of seltzer, that kind of thing,
+
+[2:40] right? Uh, but they both take the exact same cartridges. So you can put, uh, N2O, the whipped cream car shoes into an, into a CO2 machine, and you can put, uh, you can put, and vice versa, they, they, they both work. Now, I would definitely recommend getting the cream whipper rather than the, uh, rather than the seltzer one. The seltzer one has a much smaller neck, so you can't put a lot of things into it as easily as you can into a whipped cream one and you can actually carbonate. I mean it's not my favorite to carbonate, but you can carbonate with the whipped cream uh with the whipped cream thing. The trick is, um, you know, you you have to just vent off the excess CO2, open it, and pour it all out. You can't dispense it like the Sweet Stooges movie. You have to actually vent it and then pour pour all the carbonated liquid out. Usually you're carbonating with a whipped cream maker, though. What you want to make do is put some, put some ice in, so it's very, very cold. Make sure everything's extremely extremely cold and it's probably going to take 2 chargers. You're going to want to shake. you gonna want to, and this is in a regular whipped cream maker. You're going to want to put your 1st CO2 cartridge in, shake it up a bit, and invent it out. Now you're getting rid of all the air and everything in there, that air is what's kind of, the air is your main enemy in carbonation. So one of the main problems that have the carbonating in those bottles is that you can't get all the air out of the headspace. So basically, that 1st charger is really venting all of the air out of the headspace, uh, and
+
+[3:53] also, uh, getting rid of a lot of the stuff that's going to make it foam. And the 2nd charger you put on, the 2nd CO2 charger is what's really going to get it nice and fizzy.
+
+[4:02] Then you put your 2nd charger in, shake it, and let it stand for a couple of minutes for the bubbles to settle down, slow, slowly,
+
+[4:08] slowly vent it, unscrew it, and pour it out, and you should have a delicious carbonated
+
+[4:12] product, even in your whipped cream whippers. So that is a, I would definitely go uh, mar for the uh, whipped cream maker and not the CO2. Uh, anyway. Okay. So, we have a 2nd question from Melissa, uh,
+
+[4:28] Melissa actually, uh, graduated from uh, Stanford, you know, for those of you out there, Nastasia is a Stanford graduate. the same year as Nastasia, uh, and so, uh, they have, I guess, some sort of uh, kindred kindred spirit, uh, but she has a couple of questions. One relating to mangoes. Um, both, uh, she and her fiance are, uh, huge mango fans. She grew up in Malaysia, I guess, which is, you know, well, some good mangoes in Malaysia. I've never gotten to go to Malaysia, but I hear they have some good food over there. So we'll assume they were good. So they, they, you know, eat them by the, by the boat load. Everyone loves the mangoes. and then all of a sudden, about 6 years ago, her fiancé develops this allergy with
+
+[5:05] mangoes, right? And, uh, and actually I feel, you know, I feel for this as well because uh, I was allergic to nothing growing up. And then all of a
+
+[5:11] sudden when I became about 30, 31 years old, I developed a, uh, analogy to
+
+[5:17] cherries. Now they, my throat closes up and I have to go to the hospital and all this, it's a nightmare. So my wife doesn't let me have anymore cherries, even though they're actually my favorite fruit. I guess, you know, I was being punished for always making fun of other people's allergies. So because I always make fun of other people's allergies. You know, someone said, hey, how about you become allergic to your favorite fruit? Anyway, um, and interestingly, uh, he became allergic after sitting down and consuming an entire box of mangoes in one
+
+[5:41] sitting. This guy sounds like you, you know, kind of like me a little bit. The way I did it with cherries is, well, 1st I had had a preposterous number of lobsters at
+
+[5:49] the summer party, and then, you know, I bought a giant bag of cherries to kind of wash down the lobsters, and of course, I ate the whole bag by myself, and I ended up in the
+
+[5:57] hospital. So I guess there is something, you know, too much of a good thing. Uh, and so her question is, is there any way to neutralize the
+
+[6:04] toxin and mangoes, to make them edible for someone who's allergic to them without compromising the integrity of their flavor or texture, uh, either through some physical cooking method or by adding some kind of neutralizing.
+
+[6:14] Say, look, the answer is, it depends. There's basically 2 different ways that you can be allergic to mangoes. Right? Uh, the 1st uh, way, and this is the way I hope it is. for him, that you can be allergic to mangoes, is you can be allergic to, uh, uh, a chemical, uh,
+
+[6:29] which I can never get the name right, but it's like, your, your, which
+
+[6:33] is basically, it's very similar to the, or he has a chemical that's in poison ivy, and there's a little bit of that chemical in the out, in the mango
+
+[6:40] skin and in the sap, right? So, and then you're going to get like a contact, like you're going to get a rash, basically a dermatitis from touching it, well, just like you would get from poison ivy. The good news is, if you, if you wear gloves, and you peel the mango relatively thickly, and don't let the peel get back onto the fruit after you cut it, the people who are allergic to that, to, uh,
+
+[6:58] the urushio, have you pronounce it? Like, those, those people can, um, can have mango.
+
+[7:04] okay? Now, um, there are people, though, who are legitimately allergic to the mangoes, uh, themselves, right? And that's closer to the allergy I have with, uh, with cherries. And most fruit allergies, basically, have, uh, uh, to do with proteins that are on, uh, that are on the fruit, in the fruit, and, and
+
+[7:21] somehow, they seem to be some research I've done related to, um, actually pollen allergies. And unfortunately, uh, there's no way to uh, get rid of those in a raw fruit. Now, certain of these proteins are destroyed by cooking. So, like theoretically with me, I could eat cooked cherries, but unfortunately, I never really liked cooked cherry products. I just like watch areas and I don't feel like experimenting with it and I
+
+[7:43] ended up in the hospital and having my wife like, you know, call me an idiot for for experimenting with cherries and going to the hospital, but it is theoretically possible that, um,
+
+[7:51] that you can cook it and have the allergy go away. Now all this is assuming that it's not like an anaphylactic, like, uh, I mean, I go to the hospital when I eat these things because my throat closes up and I sound like that's eat
+
+[8:01] ducked because, you know, I can't breathe anymore, and you end up in the hospital, but it's not really a full on anaphylactic reaction,
+
+[8:07] like my body doesn't shut down. It's just my throat closes up because of the contact with the stuff in my throat. So if it is that, um, you know, you have 2 basic things you have to figure out, what, you know, what are you allergic
+
+[8:17] to? Uh, is the actual mango? Uh, or is it just this chemical in the skin, and then it does cooking make it go away? I'm not specifically with mango, but it have a good shot, but there's nothing you're going to be able to do that's going to make, uh, if it is the mango itself, to make a raw mango, uh, you know, not, uh, not cause a
+
+[8:36] reaction. Unfortunately, you know, cause, uh, I'm sure, you know, raw mango and a cooked mango, they are not the same thing. Um, So Melissa also asks, uh, whether she knows that uh, Nastasia's worked with Cesare Casello, one of
+
+[8:50] our, one of our good friends, uh, Italian chefs from Tuscany.
+
+[8:53] He's, uh, used to be the, uh, the salt, he, he's a sultan of Salumi
+
+[8:58] now and he was, what, the uh, Wizard of Beans or something like that. The empresario of beans. I mean, he has like these Tuscan beans. He has this, he has salumi. he runs the Salamariosi, and, um, you know, up in the uh, upper west side of New York, uh, all
+
+[9:10] around good guy, and we like him, and so, um, Melissa was wondering whether Nastasia had any
+
+[9:14] recommendations, because she's setting up a tour to Italy, uh, and you're, uh, lucky that, uh, Cesare is just started, uh, a culinary tours company of Italy where he takes people from the USA to
+
+[9:24] visit, and uh, taste and visit, not only just restaurants, but shops and vendors. And if I know Cesare and I do, you know, it's going to be an interesting tour. I mean, the man knows your suppliers over there. And he knows, uh, you know, he knows food, and he definitely knows, uh,
+
+[9:40] Tuscany like that, like the back of his hand. And, uh, I don't have his website here, but it's Cesare Casella,
+
+[9:45] and or you can, you guys who are, you know, write questions into the, to the radio
+
+[9:49] show can just write uh, Nastasia, if you're interested in contact info for that. Um, okay. Hey, Dave, we have a caller, Dave. Oh, we have a caller? Oh, call her, you're on the air. Oh? Hi. How you doing? Um, I just had a quick question, uh, and I'm going to make it super short because I'm actually in class as we speak, but, uh, I had a question about making bitters. Okay. Hello? Hello? Hey, what's your question? Bidders. Um, I was just curious about the process of making it, uh, in your home like, uh, where could you find information on it? Um, and like, where to start really? Right. So if you troll the, uh, if you troll, uh, kind of bartenders forums and probably on, on, uh, ego, there's a load of information on
+
+[10:43] bidders. Another excellent source is some of the old bitters recipes are in the old kind of alcohol handbooks that are available on Google books, like the old stuff in the
+
+[10:53] 1800s, like they're... Yeah. And, and you can get a lot of those, uh, yeah. I was just going to say, is it better to start with uh overproof alcohol, like
+
+[11:04] a spiritus or an everclear or is it better to use something flavorful or really does it depend on the profile you're looking for?
+
+[11:10] It depends on the profile you're looking for, but most often people start with an overproof
+
+[11:14] product and they get, you know, a faster and probably a more complete result with that and then you can water it down when you're done, but most people are starting with an overproof product. Um, you know, one thing I, you know, I will say that's interesting. A lot of people ask because, you know, we have a lot of new techniques for infusion, and, uh, you know, I don't, like if you use it, one of the newer techniques, I don't think you're going to get the same result as you would get with the older technique, like I
+
+[11:34] say, not better, not worse, just different. So I would definitely look into the, you know, into some of the older, some of the older
+
+[11:40] recipes, if you're trying to achieve an authentic order result. I mean, I know John Darragon was one of the 1st people to make avid bidders, but I think Abbott's is now maybe commercially available. I don't know if it's a, maybe the better truth has it or not. Also, cocktail, uh, cocktail, kingdom, grape balms, uh, website. He has a lot of information on fitters because he has a lot of the old recipe books, but it's very simple to do. It just takes time and sourcing of the herbs, and if you're in New York, there's a couple places downtown that have like very good herb selections or else online, I don't have the website off the top of my head, where to go, but most of that, most everything's available. Okay, great. I'm actually uh in New York, so I guess most stuff is readily available. Um, and really, they say that. The slow time is the best way to do it. There's really no way to push it. Well, it's not the only way, but if you want the actual specific flavors that you would get from those uh older, older ways of doing it, then I would do it that way. I mean, I haven't experimented so much with straight, like, actual, like, uh, using a similar recipe, for instance, to like an
+
+[12:39] Angostura or an Abbott's or a pay show, to try and get a fast result using one of my new techniques. The new techniques would, I'm sure, make a great result, but they would be different. In other words, I just don't think it's a matter of better or worse. I think it's just different than what you're shooting at. If you're trying to recreate an old recipe, then I would do it the old way. If you're just interested in your own flavors, then by, you know, by all needs,
+
+[12:58] use you one of the newer techniques and see whether you come up with something that you like better. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, thank you so much. No problem. Good luck with it. Tell us what happens. All right. Uh, so, let's see what we have going on here. I have another question. Someone asks, Colin. Uh, do you know what is in a Faran Adrian's product fizzy from his textures line? Now, uh, Front Adria, you know, the famous chef from Aboli, has a whole line of products called Texturus, which are kind of new ingredients, they're unfortunately called molecular gastronomy, ingredients, uh, you know, by people, because they, they're, you know, a lot of the ingredients that are, you know, labeled by, uh, reporters and whatnot as, like, astronomy, even though anyone that knows me
+
+[13:43] knows, I did test that term, Front Adria, to test that term, uh, has some movement
+
+[13:47] thought to test that term, Harold McGee, to test that term, while they claim to test that term. Uh, pretty sure Grant gets to catch that term. Uh, I can't, uh, he's very hard to find someone who likes the term like gastronomy who, who, you know, speaks English. Um, but that said, um, that's often how they're labeled. So Fizzy is one of these products he has. He sells them methosoline. He sells uh, he sells uh, analogenate, he sells all this stuff. But fizzy is one that's supposed to be a carbonation, uh, kind of thing, fizzy,
+
+[14:16] but and it's a solid. Now, unfortunately, I haven't actually used it. So, uh, the question is, is there's 2 basic ways that it could, could be. since I haven't used it. I can't say what it is, but there's 2 basic things that could happen. One, it can be similar to a pop rocks and pop rocks, uh, the way you make pop rocks is you take sugar, and you heat it till it's molten, till it's molten sugar, and then you put very high pressure on it, like 8000, uh, sorry, 800 to a 1000
+
+[14:42] PSI, uh, that's passed per square inch, uh, of carbon dioxide into it, and basically infuse the, the CO2 at that very high pressure.
+
+[14:50] You then allow it to set into a block, you release it, at which point the candy explodes,
+
+[14:55] leaving with these little rocks, the inside of the rocks are high pressure or carbon dioxide. When you put it in your mouth, you melt the candy and pop that high pressure carbon dioxide comes out and hits your tongue. And that's why pop rocks is so much sharper in taste than, um, than a normal seltzer, because it's actually, you know, quite a high concentration pressure of CO2 there. anyway, that's pop rocks. So, and you can buy neutral pop rocks. There's a company in um, in America called Chef Rubber, that sells them, and there's a bunch of people who make kind of blank pop rocks, and then you can just mix them into things. Now, the other way to get a fizzy effect is by using an acid and base reaction. This is similar to how kind of alcohol also works or something like that. So, when you're doing that, what you're doing is you, you know, the classic one, you could mix, uh, like when you make a kid, when you're doing a, a, a, a volcano, when
+
+[15:42] you see a science project, you mix baking soda, which is a base, and vinegar, which is an acid, and it'll foam up, you, you're supposed to color
+
+[15:48] it red, of course, so it looks like a volcano. You, you add the vinegar, which foams all over everything, right? This classic acid base. But you can also use that to make things fizzy in your mouth. And so you can use citric acid, and then you could use a, you know, you could use a base like baking soda. You could use a more neutral base, and you, you arrange them such that they neutralize each other so you don't have a residual base of acid.
+
+[16:09] Uh, so it's possible that they're taking an acid in a base, and then mixing them into uh, sugar, uh, syrup solution, and then turning it into granules, and then you eat it, and
+
+[16:19] it, and it comes fish in your mouth. So I'm not exactly sure what the, what the fizzy is, but it could
+
+[16:23] be, uh, either, one of those things. It's probably an acid base because a lot of the recipes were fizzy have you grinding them up to use them and that wouldn't work with uh pop rocks. Um, but, uh, I, unfortunately, I'm not sure, someone has to send me a container of it and I'll play around and report back. So, uh, we'll get a commercial break and we'll come back or not commercial break or music break, I
+
+[16:45] guess, but please call on your questions to 718-497-2128 and 718-4972128 cooking issues live for Heathrow.
+
+[16:53] I call your name. people to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. Gotta take your high. All right. You want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's going, man. You got to take your hide.
+
+[17:43] Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow up by 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, I'm going through that again now, all right? Welcome back to Cooking Issues, Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues, calling all your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Now before I come back to answering any questions. Uh, you know, tell you guys a little bit of what we've been doing for the past week, uh, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, uh, and
+
+[18:15] so I apologize a little bit for the fact that we haven't had a lot of posts going up on the bug. Uh, part of the reason is, is, you know, uh, Nasage and I were trapped in a lot of traps. London's a great place, but we were in London and the hotel had no free Wi-Fi. Sorry, no Wi-Fi at all. The internet was completely broken, so we had basically no internet access to the
+
+[18:34] past, uh, 3 days and it's kind of weird to think how your life changes these days. I mean, you know, they didn't even have the internet when I was in college and uh, you know, not much of an internet and now, you know, I'm
+
+[18:43] complained when I don't have it for for 3 days. So anyway, so, uh, since we last spoke, uh, uh, at on cookie issues, I've been to
+
+[18:51] Kentucky, and I went to a bunch of distilleries in Kentucky, and then, uh, we just went to London, but it's been kind of an amazing week, so I think I'll just talk a little bit about that. I usually talk about kind of where I've gone and what I'm doing, but Might as well, since some of it's, uh, pretty interesting. So, uh, in, in, uh, in London, I visited uh, Natasha and I visited the Brodale collection. Now, the Brogdale collection is the largest collection of fruit in the world. It's in Kent, which is about an hour outside of London by
+
+[19:23] train, and it is like, it is Nirvana. It is, like, you know, if I had to pick the closest place to, you know, heaven on
+
+[19:31] earth in terms of temperate, you know, temperate climate fruits. This is it. It's crazy. Now, you, 1st of all, uh, everyone there, which is 3 people, apologize that, you know, that we went on a Monday because there was no one there. And remember, this
+
+[19:46] is, now it's prime apple season, and Nastasia and I went there for the apples because I visited with Harold McKee. Uh, I had visited, uh, you know, about 4 years ago, 34 years ago, the, uh, the
+
+[19:56] Geneva, New York Apple extension, which is the largest single Apple collection of apples in the
+
+[20:00] world, and it was a life changing experience. It was amazing. You know, I got preposterously fake off of apples over the course of 2 days with McGee wandering through the trees and just eating and spitting,
+
+[20:09] eating and spitting, eating, getting, you know, you know, we became our own cider presses. Anyway, so at that time, I also decided I wanted to go to the Brogale, which is the English collection. Now, the English and the, and the Americans, we kind of had a, you know, like a friendly rivalry back in the 1800s up to the early, early 1900s of kind of who could blow the best apples, you know, who could, who, who had the, because it was kind of a, you know,
+
+[20:32] a Victorian area, a Victorian era, a lot of people were developing new fruit varieties. It was really kind of an important thing to do, and it was really kind of the golden era of fruit. And this is when, you know, the 1000s and 1000s of varieties really, you know, became available. And so I really wanted to come over to England, where I am right now. And, um,
+
+[20:50] taste some of these English varieties in their native setting and just basically see how the Brogdale, uh, you know, works. So anyway, so Nastasia and I show up on a Monday. The place is deserted. We saw not one soul, not one soul the entire, we were there for 5 hours eating fruit, and we saw not, not one person, a tour bus showed
+
+[21:11] up. It took like 3 pictures of the outside of the orchard. It got back on a tour bus and they walked away. I mean, those guys, these guys missed out on the biggest, the coolest thing they possibly could have gone to because it's
+
+[21:20] not, turns out it's not just apples. Like for me, the apples ended up being a side light because I've already tasted a pajillion Jillian apples at
+
+[21:27] the, at, you know, the Geneva Apple extension in, uh, upstate New York. And by the way, you know, New York apples are some of the finest apples in the whole world, not toot our horns, but, you know, toot toot. Um, so, you know, we go there and apples aren't the 1st thing you come to, pairs are. And, you know, I've never been such a huge pair person, but I go in there and uh, they have something like 400, 500 varieties of pair, uh, a lot of which are still on the tree. It's actually past prime picking time for the pairs, but on the tree, they're still fine because it's prime eating time for the pairs. Uh, and Nastasia and I tried, maybe, oh, I don't know, maybe uh, uh, 200 varieties of pairs, uh, most of which, you know, at the end, we were just, we would split the rows in
+
+[22:08] half, and Nastasia would take the right half. I would take the left half, and we would just eat them, and if they were interesting, we would tell each other, uh, about it, but, and we'll post on
+
+[22:16] it soon on the blog, but, uh, suffice it to say, that there is a lot more to know about pairs than you have ever known if all you've had is a supermarket pair.
+
+[22:25] The range of flavors and textures and pairs is astonishing, not surprising,
+
+[22:32] astonishing. We had pears that tasted like rose water. We had, uh, we had a whole variety of pairs. I didn't even learn about, which are pairs that are only cooking pairs. So they never get soft. You can actually, these are pairs that can actually be stored a long, long time over winter and be used into spring and they're hard, like rocks and they need to be cooked. They don't develop their flavor, or their proper texture until they're cooked until they're cooked. But, you know, unlike cooking apples, which are, you know, have similar characteristics, but are basically just tart, like these ones are, you know, useless, uh, until
+
+[23:05] they're uh, until they're cooked. And we, we tried a couple. Unfortunately, I can't bring me back to the states to uh, cook them to see what happens, but, you know, in case of
+
+[23:12] Rasrah. Uh, we have uh, just an infinite variety of textures and aromas. And so when you read, the old books on uh, pomology, which is the fruit study, you know, usually these temperate fruits like apples and pears and stone
+
+[23:26] fruits. You'll, uh, you know, you'll, you'll hear people say how awesome pairs are, but you're sitting there as a modern person, be
+
+[23:31] like pairs, who cares about pair, pair? Fine. I like a pair, but what's the big deal? Uh, and then you really get into it and you see what the huge,
+
+[23:39] huge differences are. And all of a sudden, all the old recipes, like, you know, the medieval recipes for cooked pears, like charred wardens, famous
+
+[23:46] one, like, these ones all make kind of more sense, and you kind of want to try them with the actual,
+
+[23:51] the actual pair now, and, and, you know, 4 or 5 years ago, when I became infatuated with the idea of all these apples and flavors that we've lost.
+
+[23:58] I didn't even consider the pair and now I'm just as hyped on pairs as I am on apples. Uh, but that's not all this farm has. I mean, this farm is acres and acres where they basically let you roam free. They have signs to say, don't walk off the path and go into the orchards, but I mean, come on. that's just there, I think, for liability reasons, because they have huge rabbit holes. By the way, did I mention this place is full of game. There's game everywhere. There's rabbits. There was like pheasants. There was, like, if you, like, were allowed to just go on that
+
+[24:27] land, and like with a shotgun, and still, you would never have to leave, because they have all the game, all the fruit, you could
+
+[24:34] distill, I mean, it's just, it's crazy. Anyway, so, uh, they have a huge plum orchard with, uh, several 100 varieties of plum. Unfortunately, as I said earlier in the program, I'm allergic to cherries, but you know, maybe nastasia can go back during cherry season because they have 100s of varieties of
+
+[24:48] cherry, and they specialize mainly in sweet cherries. Kent is interesting as a group. They specialize mainly not in in cider apples, but they have cider apples, but they specialize mainly in in non-insider apple cider apples or apples that are are Teutanic to use by themselves. They're very good for uh, for cider, and can't, uh, local ciders are actually made with uh, sweeter, sweet apples, sweet apples and cooking apples, not with panic cider apples. It's the west country uh, ciders in the UK that are famous for their very, very tanic apples, smaller tanic apples that they use in their cider. So Kentish cider actually traditionally uses. So a lot of people in this country, well, in this country right now, but where I live in the US, they think that you're copying
+
+[25:24] out, if you're using non-sided varieties for, uh, your site, but it turns out it's actually fictional in certain places
+
+[25:29] they can, to use non-sided varieties, um, of apples. So these, but these guys have cider varieties, sweet varieties, they also have a huge nut for us with like a 1000000000 different kinds of
+
+[25:38] hazelnut. I mean, the place is nuts. I mean, I wish I could have Spent, the fashion I have a huge cash intentional problems as a result of being there because, uh, you know, we tried, uh, you know, like I said, you know, uh, at
+
+[25:54] least, uh, one or 200 varieties of pair, uh, you know, bazillion apples. Uh, we had some plums, even though they were well past prime, and don't bother with a plum, a plum past prime is, uh, is, is, is no fun. Uh, and then we went back to their little cider shop and trank fighters, but, uh, if you were in, in England, you know, skip the
+
+[26:13] Tower of London, skip anything, and go get on a train, go to Faversham, which is the little town where it is, and
+
+[26:19] I go to the Brogdale, and, uh, go there in fruit season, and have one of the most miraculous fruit
+
+[26:25] experiences you are, uh, ever going to have in your entire life. A completely uh, uh, operation there. Hey Dave, we have a caller. Hello, is that you, Jen? We have a caller? Hey, Carl, you're on the air. Great. My name's Corbin. I'm from San Diego. And I had a question about reproducing a barbecue pulled pork using sous vide. There are a couple things I like about barbecue pulled pork. One is the smoky flavor. The other is like the, uh, a nice crust, uh, bark that you get on the outside, and I know sous vide is a good way to control the temperature and make it nice and tender, but how can I get the smoke and the bark after or before using sous
+
+[27:07] vide? Yeah, it's tough. There's a couple problems. One, when you use to feed, at least with uh the lower temperatures that are associated with sous vide, you're not going to get the same texture. So if you, I don't know if you've done it before, but when you do like a short rib, when you're cooking sous vide, um, you'll notice that the connective tissue gets soft, but it doesn't render out, right? So the fibers never get kind of stringy the way that they get in a traditional, uh, in a traditional braise. So nutritional braise or a barbecue, the, the connected tissue is going to melt out and the fibers
+
+[27:39] in the meat are going to, basically going to be lubricated by that connective tissue. That's why the meat without connected tissue, never good done barbecue, right? So when you're doing it in the sous vide, the stuff turns soft, but it doesn't render out. And that's why one of the interesting things about sous vide, like short rib, for instance, is that you can slice it, unlike normal thing, which is going to break apart because the fibers are totally broken apart.
+
+[28:00] So the texture is, um, a little bit, a little bit, um, and so it's not, I'm
+
+[28:07] thinking, a pull the same way that, uh, texture wise, that, uh, that, uh, normal barbecue, uh, I don't know what you're making. pork, right? Pulled pork is going to work. The other thing is, is that you, that, that, the outside crust, I mean, you, but
+
+[28:19] you, one way you could do it, I mean, the smoke is gonna be tough. You need smoke, right? And I'm assuming that, you know, there are some high quality smoke applications that you can put on, uh, or you could do a cold smoke kind of situation, but it doesn't taste quite the same, like something that's smoked, doesn't taste the same as something that has the smoke flavor from barbecuing
+
+[28:39] it from being bar, you know, from being made into barbecue. They don't, to me, they don't taste quite the same, although I don't know the chemistry of why that's the case, but um, you, you could apply a smoke. There are some very high quality smoke, products that tastes a whole hell of a lot better than liquid smoke, but still, people don't like to do it, because you're basically applying a smoke
+
+[28:56] flavor to something rather than smoking it naturally, um, but you could, you could like cold smoke,
+
+[29:02] or uh, even uh, hot smoke after the sous vide step, or after the low temp step, but you're still gonna need, if you want that, that, that surface on the outside, you're gonna need to apply some dry heat to it to actually get some of the moisture out of it.
+
+[29:15] Now, you can apply that with a higher, uh, higher temperature than you would doing when you're making normal
+
+[29:21] barbecue, and that would allow you to keep the inside still, um, you know, have the advantage
+
+[29:25] of the low tap. But, uh, you know, having the outside dry out a little bit, but it's going to be totally different because then,
+
+[29:31] uh, to obtain that same surface that you would get. You want to have a kind of a, the browning happened for a long time over a low temp, and it's not going to provide the same
+
+[29:39] result, because in order to keep the low temperature result on the inside, you're going to need to put it like in a 500 degree, uh, like grill or oven or something, not to really get the outside, you know, to crisp up on you and
+
+[29:50] and get it to firm up without overdoing the inside, but it's not going to be exactly the same result.
+
+[29:54] It would still be delicious. Right? But I don't think it's gonna be the same result. Is that that makes sense or no? Yeah, yeah. So, I might get a different product, but I could still, uh, get something that's delicious and, um, maybe approximates barbecue. Yeah, that's not. Yeah, it's gonna be totally different, but yeah, low temp cook, and you can, you can either put something smoking in the bag, or you can smoke it a little bit afterwards, or get a real,
+
+[30:21] like put some chips or something to make your grill real smoky. Get your grill hot as hell, put it in there, you know, not touching the fire, maybe, but like a, away from the hot as hell, and then crisp up the
+
+[30:31] outside and uh, and get some smoke flavor in it that way, and you can make a delicious product, but I don't think it's going to be the same
+
+[30:37] as, like, regular barbecue. Delicious but different. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, so I called a couple weeks ago and I had some questions about. I bought a used lab circulator, so I'm gonna, try it out. I got some good advice last time, and I think I got some good advice this time, so I'll let you know how it goes. Yeah, let us know how it goes and hopefully it works out for you. I think it will. Great. thank you. All right. Thanks. All right we gonna go to our 2nd commercial break. uh calling your questions to 718 uh 4972128 that's 718-4972128 cooking issues live from Heathrow
+
+[31:14] Airport.
+
+[31:26] Give up the name of all the men! You know what? When I hear a groove like this, boo. Oh, hey, I got to get high. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, man. It's bad. Look at you. Someone got a groove like this. You know? You know? No, I need the grip, got, grip, got, grip, got. Welcome back to Cooking Issues, is Dave Arnold. I was such an issues, calling your questions too. 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128, uh, on the
+
+[32:25] Here's Radio Network coming to you live today from Hugo Airport in London, where Nastasia, the Hammer and I are waiting to get back to New York City.
+
+[32:32] So we have a couple of more questions here. Uh, one is, uh, Colin writes in and he's interested in buying quinine sulfate, uh, and he says he's having some problems getting quinine sulfate. Now quinine, uh, is the product in tonic water that gives it its characteristic bitterness. It's also what is a, I mean, the reason it was there originally is quinine, which comes from a bark, by the way, uh,
+
+[32:58] Kinchona, I think is how it's pronounced, so I can never remember, uh, this, this quinine is an anti-malarial, right? Which is why, uh, you know, you take it if you're going to go to India, it's your British, your British officer in the, uh, 1800s. you know, want to get a malaria, you you drink your quinine. They eventually, you know, made this tonic out of it, and they mix it with gin, and there you have it. Now, uh, the amount of quinine in,
+
+[33:22] in quinine also has other cool properties like it, it's, uh, it's, uh, phosphorescent. So in clubs, if you go to a club and a black light hits it, it lights up. It's kind of cool anyway. So, uh, quinine is in the tonic water, although that is the characteristic flavor, the bitterness flavor of it.
+
+[33:37] Quinine is not there in enough of a quantity to stop you from getting malaria. So if you, you know, don't think you're going to, you know, cheer your malaria with tonic water, right? In fact, uh, the doses that you need for uh, for, for medicinal reasons are much higher. I think at least 2 times higher. Um, the, in the, in the way that we normally put it into a drink is by using a, a derivative assault of quinine sulfate, right? And you can buy this stuff, but you have to be incredibly careful when you buy
+
+[34:05] it, because, uh, an overdose of quinine is, you know, a bad thing, it causes
+
+[34:10] disease known as chinkatism. It's no good. You have to be careful, uh, until recently you could just go in and buy it, uh, at a pharmacy because people will take it for leg cramps, but now it's considered a prescription medication. So there's 2 ways you can do it. You can get a doctor friend to write you prescription for quinine, uh, for, you know, because you say, oh, I have terrible leg clamps, and then they'll prescribe you some quinine. You can get quinine and do it that way. Or, I mean, I don't, I don't, that may or may not be fraud, in which case I don't recommend it. Uh, but the, uh, you know, the other way is you go to a lab supply house and you buy, uh, quinine sulfate, uh, and you have to buy the UFP grade, which is basically a
+
+[34:46] pharmaceutical, uh, uh, considered okay for consumption, and you buy a, uh, you know, you buy a little, little
+
+[34:54] violet. The stuff I bought. I bought from a company called Spectrum Chemical, and I bought their USP grade of quinine sulfate, and
+
+[35:01] you have to be extremely careful with it. Quinine sulfate. You're gonna want to be using on the order of, well, the legal limit for tonic water is less than 83 parts per
+
+[35:10] 1000000, which is way more bitter than you actually want it to be. So you want the best way to use uh quinines. First of all, don't let other people handle it. You know, you know, keep it safe so people don't just, you know, use it like they
+
+[35:22] would, sugar, creamer, ass or something like that. And then, um, make a solution of, uh, quinine in water or in alcohol is actually better that you keep there and then make, use it as kind of a bittering
+
+[35:34] agent. But you gotta, you want to be careful not just for a safety reason, but also quinine can become, uh, it'll go from being not bitter enough to being very much
+
+[35:43] 2 bitter, extremely bitter, uh, with very small additions, because the taste, at least in my mind, seems to be cumulative. So, you know, a little bit of tonic water, a little bit of quinine, okay, a little
+
+[35:53] more okay, a little more, you know, okay. And another, the next shot and you're like, boom, it's, it's ruined. too bitter. Um, so, uh, I would just say uh, you know, be careful with it, but you can get it. It's not cheap. I paid $80 for, you know, a little vial of it, uh, but that vial is
+
+[36:09] lasting me years because it takes such a small amount of the quinine to, uh,
+
+[36:13] to, to bitter up your, your tonic water. And then, of course, you, you know, the, for the rest of your quinine work for your tonic, you're either going to want to use an acid mix, which, which lime acid to, to mimic the flavor of limes, which I recommend would be, uh, 2 parts of citric acid, which is the, um, which is the
+
+[36:29] acid, and lemons, one part malic acid, which is the acid from limes, and then a pinch of 6
+
+[36:34] inch. That's acidic is really going to give you the characteristic authentic lime taste. Uh, and that one you can only get from chemical supply house is like spectrum again, is where I got mine, USP. But you can do a fairly good, but don't you, again, be careful with that one because it's really nasty if you add too much. But, um, the citric of
+
+[36:50] now like acid you can get from a home brew supply shop. It's a really good way to do it. Otherwise, you just make your tonic water with a clarified lime juice, uh, which, you know, we have uh, on our blogs, go to cookingissues.com and look
+
+[37:01] up uh, clarification, we have a way to clarify lime juice, and you can make a tonic water with that, and that is delicious carbonated with uh,
+
+[37:08] gin. Uh, Colin also asks, um, about, uh, he just got a big block of Pete, uh, and he's, you know,
+
+[37:16] Pete, as, you know, most of you might know. Uh, they uh, roast uh, mals with uh, peat when they're gonna
+
+[37:21] do uh, you know, scotch is more or less peaty, depending on which scotch is. Uh, and it's that you add the characteristic flavor, so he wants to use Pete, maybe uh, distill Pete or get uh, some essential oils out of it. Um, but my impression is that you don't want to use the peat directly and that the peat is good for making peat flavor when it's being earned. So I would, uh, I would definitely, I would definitely use the
+
+[37:45] peat. Uh, you can smoke something with uh, peat, throw some peat on the, on the grill and
+
+[37:49] then, uh, and then let the flavor transfer over to your food from, from
+
+[37:53] roasting, uh, from, uh, you know, using the peat to, to burn it. I've never actually used it, but it's something I would definitely definitely love to do. I'm kind of like secretly fascinated with Pete and also with uh bog mummies. I'm a, I'm a, maybe with like, you know, the bogs, you know, where, like, peas, go, you cut pee, bog, and there's very acidic conditions, because you're breaking down stagnum moss in there, and it releases chemicals and acidity down there, that basically, you know, it well, can, uh, you know, so hearing beings, back in the days, you know, drew the days and whatnot, that, you know, you would have these people who, one reason, another human sacrifice, execution, whatever,
+
+[38:31] killed, thrown to be bogs, and they're preserved for 1000s of years very well. Um, so I'm kind of have a secret fascination. I guess not so secret anymore with uh bog bodies. But another interesting thing about bogs, that, uh, that I'm fascinated with, this idea of bog, butter. So you'll have these strange fat deposits in bogs called bog butter. And then I believe, although I can't verify this, if some people would actually put
+
+[38:52] fat into bogs to preserve them, and then you could use them like a long, long, long,
+
+[38:57] long, long time there. I always find some ancient stash of odd butter, and then, um, and then cook with it, but, you know, uh, I don't think that's, uh, that's going to happen. But speaking of things that I've always wanted to have happen and just did happen, is that, you know, in in the US, it's very difficult to get game birds to eat unless you are a
+
+[39:20] hunter because you cannot hunt meat in this commercially in the United States.
+
+[39:24] So, uh, so anyway, so it's very difficult to get birds like woodcock, we have to get it shipped from Scotland, you cross an arm and leg, uh, grouse, uh,
+
+[39:33] does I say grouse? No, yeah, grouse, woodcock, teal, which is kind of like a tiny duck, widgeon, which is kind of another kind of small duck, uh, knife, all these birds, these great
+
+[39:42] birds that, you know, I've read about my whole life, these great game birds, and I've never had them before, and went, uh, 2 nights in a row to a restaurant here in London called Hicks, and the 1st night they had grouse on the menu, which
+
+[39:53] I'd instantly ordered. I got the last one, I almost had to beat the crap out of someone else so that I could make sure that I got this l- last grouse because I wasn't going to leave London without having it. And then by chance, it was delicious, by the way, like game being, uh, the unlike any other bird I had ever had, everyone says, you know, well, grouse is just different, like,
+
+[40:11] well, that, it is, you know what I mean? Uh, and the menu says, you know, make and change shot if you needed whatnot. And the next day, we went back. Um, randomly, and the person apologized for, you know, make us go to the same restaurant twice in a row, but their menu is almost completely changed, and I just, I know, I must say, a really good menu change, and they had a game feast,
+
+[40:29] a game bird feast, with woodcock, teal, widgeon, and snipe, and
+
+[40:34] I, uh, I just went, I went I went crazy, 1st of all, woodcock, you know, the, you know, the, what they say about woodcock, and it's one of these things with a really long beach, is that it takes off, and as it takes off, it poops out, everything it's in its
+
+[40:46] intestines, so it's not basically eviscerated. All the guts are still on the inside of the woodcock, and they cook it, uh, and, and they serve it to you, and it's got this
+
+[40:53] big, long beak, and the head's still on. The whole thing's basically entirely hole and uh, and all 4 birds were, let's just put it this way. They're a little bit bloody. I, I did spit some shot out onto the plate during the middle, and this gives you an idea what the meal was like. So, uh, so anyway, so I'm there with, uh, these, you know, 2 friends of mine from, uh, 69
+
+[41:11] Colbert Blow, Mimi and Stuart Nastasia. They're there and uh, Mimi's actually, I guess, not for Susan Coba Crow. She works with Savannah Club. We can't buy in the US. There's a fake Atlanta club in the US. It's not really the real world, the real Santa Club can't come to the US because I'm bargain with Cuba. Anyway, I'm sitting there and, uh, I'm eating these birds, like literally there's blood from the birds, like all over my hands. I had like a piece of heart. from the woodcock, like stuck on my knuckle. You know, I'm looking across the table, and I'm sure I have blood all over my face, from the, and everyone's completely horrified, but, and I was like, look, you know,
+
+[41:48] I'm, I'm sorry. Uh, I'm sorry, but I've never had the, it had a chance to eat cheeseburger before, and you know, you really need to pick them up, and it's really not like a
+
+[41:55] neat and deep. I apologize for, you know, making such a mess of it, but, you know, that's kind of, that's what it is. I'm done and I apologize to everyone for this horrific carnage
+
+[42:06] scene. I'm sure the entire restaurant was repulsed. Uh, and and as the guy say, say, played away. He said, oh, so how was the head? And this is after I just apologized for making this, and I was like, well, what do you mean? like, well, you're supposed to split the head of the woodcock open and suck the brains out. So after all that, I sit there and I, shove the knife through the head of the woodcock and split it in half, and then uh, suck the brains out. So I think that was kind of the last nail in the coffin of decency, uh, for the
+
+[42:35] heat. But, it was a chance, um, that, uh, uh, you know, I've never had before, but
+
+[42:41] that meal, I'll leave you with this. That meal, I had, uh, right after Nastasia and I had just eaten, uh, you know, several 100s of varieties of fruit, uh, so it was,
+
+[42:53] it, uh, it was an, a gastrointestinal extravaganza that day. Let's just say, I had, uh, we had, you know, we're about 3 quarters full up with, uh, with, uh, mangled fruit parts, and then we stuffed it down with, with, uh, with our game birds, and then, of course, I had to have dessert because it's me, uh, and since I was in England and going full traditional, I had, of course, the famous pudding, spot
+
+[43:16] dicks, and this has been cooking issues live from Heathrow, London, come back to, uh, come back
+
+[43:21] to most of this next week, and we'll be back in New York City. Fishes, fish. Oh, you
+
+[43:33] did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, fat crap. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. supposed to meet my baby. You were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, where you phone in with all of your cooking related questions. I'm here today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, and we are back in the United States finally, right? We're done with we're done with the majority of our travels. We're good now? think so. Okay, good. All right. So call in all your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:55] And today's show is brought to you by 360 cookware, which it's new, I guess I'm not familiar with. Are you familiar with it? No, Nastasia? No. So 360 Cookwear is a top of the line. Stainless steel cookware that is made in America in the greenest cookware manufacturing facility in the country. It can be used to make all of your favorite recipes, but it also gives the option to cook using vapor technology. What does that mean? have no idea. Yeah, which creates a seal that surrounds the food with intense heat locking in vitamins, moisture, and flavor without added oil, fat, or excess water. Visit our website at 360 cookware.com for more information. What does that you think that means? Vapor. You think it means they're steaming it? That's what it sounds like. Sounds like it's steaming it. When I hear vapor technology and cooking, in general, I think steam. Steam, right? So what they're saying is that they're steaming it. We have a caller. Oh, we have collar? All right. So let's take let's take the collar and then hopefully someday we'll figure out what 360 vapor technology is. Hello, color, you're on the air. Hey, that me? Outstanding. Um, so I had a question for you actually about, um, sous vide cooking. Okay. And particularly the vacuum packing. So, Thomas Keller, fairly famously, has claims that the home units, the food savers and things like this, managed to remove moisture.
+
+[2:07] Um, and I'm trying to figure out how that's possible compared to one of
+
+[2:12] the, you know, very high-end, you know, 8 and $10,000 restaurant systems. Right, okay. Well, you can, by the way, at home, you can get a, like a commercial grade one now for, I think about 1500 bucks, like a really, really, really nice one. It's small. It's not as big as the commercial one. So you don't have to go spend quite as much money. But I think what he's referring to is, you know, for those of you out there that have a food saver, right, which is the kind of the normal one, there's other manufacturers now, but
+
+[2:39] they're kind of the one that's been around the longest as the food saver. When it's sucking a vacuum, you have to use specialized vacuum bags that have little
+
+[2:44] crisscross lines in them, right? And that's just what you have. You have the food saver? Yeah. And so the problem with those bags is that the way that it sucks vacuum is by using those little lines as straws and literally sucking the vacuum out of the out of the bag. The problem is, is that basically, the air is constantly coming out and air pressure is pushing on the bag, which forces liquid into those little
+
+[3:09] straws. So if you let it run, right, it sucks the liquid literally sucks the liquid out of the bag like it's a straw. And that's probably what he's referring to. I don't think he's referring to it drying something out, right? Now, that doesn't happen in a commercial vacuum machine because, right? In a commercial vacuum machine, the bag is inside of a chamber and the whole chamber is evacuated. So there's not extra pressure pushing on the outside of the bag while you're
+
+[3:34] sucking the vacuum on the inside. So the liquids tend to stay in the bag. I mean, sometimes you can boil them because as you put a vacuum on something, you lower the temperature, which it boils, it can boil out. But if you don't boil it, the liquids are going to stay in the bag because there's no air pressure on the bag while you're sucking the vacuum. And that's kind of the key, aside from the fact that the food saver's vacuum pump isn't nearly as strong as a regular vacuum, you know, real commercial vacuum pump. That's the fundamental difference. And that's why a chamber machine is so useful as compared to a machine that just sucks a vacuum on the bag itself, does that make sense? It does. Is there, is there a way that you can sort of eyeball it and make sure you, can you do something like this? I just thought one of these, um, uh, um, Souviet pros, from, from poly-science. Um, so I'm sort of tapped out as far as equipment changes for a little while. Yeah, here's the good news, right? So I haven't had a food saver. It broke, but I almost always used it to seal potato chip
+
+[4:37] bags or if you're going to say something for a long time in the freezer. It's really good. If you have to use a food saver to bag sauces. A lot of people will freeze the sauces 1st and then put them in it's frozen so that it won't get sucked up. But to me, that's kind of a pain in the pain in the rear. I tend to do most of my work just using Ziploc bags. Like, a lot of things, like, let's say you're going to work with fish, right? If you're going to work with fish, you don't really want to suck a hard vacuum on it, it tends to hurt the texture of the fish, right? Or even chicken, if you suck a hard vacuum on a chicken, it tends to make it taste more like a canned chicken when it's
+
+[5:10] cooked for some reason. I don't really know the reason why. just test after test. We've seen this, we've seen this happening. So 90% of the time, when I'm cooking at home, actually, basically 100%, unless I'm doing eggs, I put my stuff in
+
+[5:22] Ziploc bags, and it's extremely easy to learn the technique to pack very effectively in a
+
+[5:27] Ziploc. There's pictures on cooking issues.com. But briefly, what you do is, is you seal the entire bag, you put some liquid
+
+[5:34] in, like usually oil or butter, whatever, or a sauce if you're doing something like that. You seal the bag and you leave just, you put your finger in the top where it's not sealed. One section isn't sealed, the rest is sealed, and then you put the bag underwater. As you put the bag underwater, the water displaces the air, and right before the bag sinks underneath the liquid entirely, you snip the last little bit
+
+[5:54] closed, you press it closed. And it works great. I mean, I wouldn't use it on very, very, very high temps because those Ziploc bags aren't meant to get all the way to the boil, but for 90% of what you're doing or more. It's a really good technique and doesn't require any sort of equipment and it handles sauces very, very well. So I moved quite a long time ago to that kind of a technique at home instead of using the food saver, which makes an excellent potato chip
+
+[6:19] sealer, by the way. Um, I mean, I don't know if that's another thing, if you have the, the, the, the
+
+[6:25] polyscience, here's one little, um, one little note I'll give you because, uh, I mean, if you're at home, you might not have this problem, but, you know, we've been using the new circulator at
+
+[6:33] the, at the school, at the French culinary for quite a while. And under the use of a bunch of people who aren't necessarily trained to use it. One of the main problems we've had with the new unit is people have set the offset, okay? So like if you notice on the new circulator, If you press the button, you can change between Fahrenheit and Celsius, but the next thing after that is something called the offset. And I've had a bunch of chefs turn the offset, like 2 and 3 degrees because they thought they were setting the temperature, and then the circulator is off by 2 or 3 degrees. And it's not that there's anything wrong with the circulator. It's just that people have, it's too easy for them to mess with the offset. So if anyone plays around with your circulator, make sure they put the offset back to zero. The best thing to do is to put your new circulator into an ice water bath, lots of ice and water, like set it to like -10 Celsius or something like
+
+[7:24] that, just so that it doesn't want to heat the bath, let it run for like 10
+
+[7:28] minutes, and then you can see exactly how far off of 0 is. within a half a degree, always. But you can set the offset then down or up to exactly calibrate it to 0 and then it'll be
+
+[7:39] dead dead perfect forever as long as no one messes with the offset. Is this helpful at all or no? Definitely, very much so. All right. Well, listen, thanks for calling and, you know, call back anytime if you want more advice on bagging.
+
+[7:54] We love bagging, right, Nastasha? We do even I can do it. All right, thanks so much. Thanks for that guys. Okay. All right, so we have another question in. And it's from Michael Griffiths, who was actually at the Harold McGee lecture series last week. And, uh, I was a horribly or 2 weeks ago.
+
+[8:13] I was horribly, horribly, horribly sick. Like, I don't know. I've never kind of been unlike you. I was, I mean, you know, chills, like horrible, like, uh, let me put it this way. without getting too graphic, right? It turns out that if you expel everything out of your body for like days and days without being able to take anything in, that you lose some of
+
+[8:37] your, you lose the enzymes, you lose the, you know, the enzymes that allow you to digest lactose,
+
+[8:43] right? So, you know, I now know, very temporarily, I know what it's like to be lactose intolerant. sucks. Yeah, it really sucks. I'll never make fun of someone for it again because it really sucks, you know? Um, anywho. So I was very sick. I wasn't at my best during the class. In fact, I had to leave a couple hours early just because, you know, the shaking shaking and chills and the, you know,
+
+[9:06] it was a little much with the, they had a space heater fired directly underneath me and had me wrapped in like 33 sets of coats so that my body just wasn't regulating temperature.
+
+[9:14] was just a nightmare. But unfortunately, I didn't get to set up the rotary evaporator, and Michael really wanted to see the rotary evaporator, and it didn't get set up because I wasn't there, and there was a seal missing, and so it was never able to get worked properly. And I apologize, Michael, if you're ever in the in the neighborhood, I owe you a Rotovap demo, right, Nastasia? Right, yeah, yeah. Anyway. No, not your fault. I mean, like I wasn't there. I wasn't available, but we'll show you how to fire up the road of app. It's one of those things where if you're not familiar with every single part of the rotary evaporator. And for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about, Rotary evaporator is a piece of laboratory equipment that's a vacuum still. We're actually demoing one tomorrow on the Martha Stewart show. Yes. I'll talk more about that later. But you need to know what every single part does. And if you're just kind of remembering, instead of like knowing intimately every part, it's almost impossible to set up
+
+[10:03] properly. But I'll do it for you if you're ever in the neighborhood. And I happen to be in the neighborhood and firing at the motor map at the same time. But he has an actual question. too, actually. One is about parsnips. So, uh, he juices champion uh, parsnips in the champion uh, juicer. And champion juicer for those of you that don't know, it's a great little juicer. It doesn't do citrus. It doesn't do wheat grass, but it's basically got these little teeth that spin, and it just, you know, mashes the juice, all the heck, mashes fruit or whatever, vegetables, all the heck, and then presses the juice through a
+
+[10:34] screen, and then the pulp, which is fairly dry. You can run it again if it's not, comes out the front. I love the champion. We juice apples all day long and that thing with juice, carrots and that thing. you know, ginger, horseradish, it'll juice most anything. Um, so he's juicing parsnips in it, and he's taking the juice and he's heating it, and then it's all of a sudden thickening up, and I'm guaranteeing, I'm not guaranteeing, I don't know, but my guess is that the reason it's sticking up is that parsnips actually
+
+[10:58] contain a good bit of starch in them. And so if you're taking the juice and heating it, you're probably functionalizing the starch, this is my guess, and it's thickening up just
+
+[11:05] like just like a starch wood. I mean, that's just my my guess. This is why, you know, parsnip's contain a lot of starch and to prove it. Like if you store them for a long time, they get sweeter because the starch is being converted to sugar. So if you have a parsley, but it's not very sweet, it's going to have a proportionally higher amount of starch in it. And I guess depending on how you're juicing it or how much the thing is being broken up by the juice, or you're going to get more or less of that starch in the juice. I don't know if you're adding the pulp back to it either to add that, but there's definitely going to be some free starch in
+
+[11:35] there that is, you know, not functionalized until it's been heated and boiled and then it's going to thicken up. This is my guess. Another question, and we'll take this before we go off into break. If he has a question about using Agar and marshmallows. So a lot of people actually are interested. And Agar, by the way, for those of you that don't know, is my favorite hydrocoloid, my favorite kind of geling agent. I love Agar because it's easily available. It's, you know, completely natural, and used for like a bazillion years, and it's extremely versatile. I love it. In fact, we're teaching a class where I'm going to do a whole bunch of agar tricks this Thursday and Friday. hydrocoloids at the at the FCI. So, um, Anyway, so the holy grail for a lot of people are vegetarian marshmallows. And so typically the marshmallow we made with gelatin or mixture, gelatin, egg white to provide the
+
+[12:23] foaming, the gelatin sets, and that provides the structure for the marshmallow. And so his question is, is substituting Agar in, instead of gelatin? And I would not do that. I would not use Agar Agar. Agar's very porous and tends to have a lot of cinoresis, a lot of weeping in it. Typically people use mixtures of carraginen, which is a similar gelling agent and locust bean gum, which
+
+[12:50] provide, so when you take carragin in, kappa carragin, and there's a bunch of different kinds. When you take kappa caragin in, which is very brittle, right? But also, you know, forms of good structure. And then you mix it with locust bean gum and other, you know, classic, you know, all natural, it's from a seed. And you mix that. The locust bean gum softens the carragina and it makes it somewhat gelatin like. And so there's very specific mixtures of, um, of, uh, kappa
+
+[13:16] carragen and possibly other types of carragen and, and locust being gum that are manufactured specifically to make, uh, marshmallows.
+
+[13:25] And they're made by the CP Kelco Corporation. That's CP, K-E-L-C-O. And one that they make, specifically for marshmallows, is genutine, G-E-N-U-T-I-N-E,
+
+[13:38] genutine X9303, and I believe it's available through La Sanctuary's website, or La Sanctuary's
+
+[13:45] website out in California. And if not, you could contact CP Calco directly and find a source for it, but that is a special Carragin
+
+[13:52] mix that's made to function just like gelatin in a marshmallow, and it should whip up without any problems. If you go into the hydrocolid primer section of our blog, cooking issues. There's a little discussion that people have done on vegetarian marshmallows. It might also be of help. Anyway, hope this was helpful. We'll go out to the 1st commercial break. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feel, bro? Feeling good? You feeling good? It's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look him! We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[15:03] All right. I wanna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? You gotta take it high.
+
+[15:17] Now I want everybody, left red blowing my 2 courses. And then I wanna wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Get James Horn on me. Fred, can you take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Man!
+
+[16:20] You are listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, call in all of your cooking related questions, Technical
+
+[16:34] or Not, 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. We're going to be here for another segment or so, so you still have time to call. Okay. So, here's a question. A couple of weeks ago, I waxed repsodic apparently about the wonders of fresh tofu, and Derek has made it himself, but encountered 2 big problems. When he's heating the ground soybeans to make soy milk to make sure foam's up an absurd amount, uh, and containing the mess was problematic. You know, I too have this problem at home, absurd messes, but for many, many reasons, not just for making tofu. Cooking in small batches made it more manageable, but also more time consuming, any tricks for controlling the filming. All right, well, I think I said mentioned this before, the book to get on tofu is the book of tofu by William Shirtlift and Akiko, I can't pronounce her name very properly, but
+
+[17:26] Ayagi. how you pronounce that? I don't know. I'm terrible pronunciation. just such a jerk, such a moron. Anyway, I happened to have it in front of me because I was rereading it and trying to figure out all your problems. I think I found out your problem. When you're making, here's the process of tofu for those of you that don't, that don't know making tofu, you need to go, 1st of all, go make your own tofu.
+
+[17:44] If you want like a highly, highly technical tofu source, actually. Nathan Mirvold's book when it's coming out, Nathan Mirvold, and Chris Young, the Uber techbook that's coming out very soon, like the techbook to end all techbooks, has a huge section on tofu and also on tofu like curds from other things like from peanuts, I
+
+[18:03] believe from edamame and from many of these things. So that's like when that comes out, that's going to be the revolutionary tofu, tofu
+
+[18:10] curd, to end all tofu curd, like books, I think. But in the meantime, I will tell you this. So what you do is you take soybeans, right? You know, hopefully relatively good quality soybeans that aren't too, too old. You want to soak them for 8 to 10 hours, you break them open, you look at the inside to verify that they've soaked through, but
+
+[18:29] having over soaked, right? Then I usually use about a cup and a half, which is what, you know, the shirt left book recommends. Then, uh, you're going to blend those with with very hot water in a blender, right? Then you're going to add that to more water and heat it, right, until it just gets to the boil. You're not going to boil it with all the pulp in it. Then you're going to pour out the, you know, you're going to get a sack like cloth. And then you're going to pour the that entire mix. It's got the, it's got the, you know, the pulp and the, and the soy milk into a sack and press it out, then you're going to remoisten the, you know, the stuff that's left over, which is called
+
+[19:06] okara. That's like the hulls and the solids, right? Remix that with some more hot water, bring it up to a boil, and then, and then pour, pour it back out again to get the, the, the soy milk out. And then, then you boil the milk uh, to kill, you know, kill all the, the enzymes
+
+[19:23] that have to prevent you from uh, from using all all the protein. If you try and boil it with the with the actual okara in it with the pulp in it, I think you're going to have horrible boiling mess problems, you're probably going to get okara, you know, boiled and stuck onto the bottom of your
+
+[19:37] pot. It's going to be a king hell mess. So what I typically do is a little bit different from what they do in the, because in the book, they're very concerned about energy consumption, which is smart because this guy is very, very concerned about all this kind of stuff. But in general, I have about 7.5 cups of water that you bring. Uh, you know, you keep it hot. basically almost at the boil. And then you have another pot with another like 8 cups of water, a boiling in it. And it's just gonna sit there and boil. And so what you'll do is you'll take, you'll take like a half of the soybeans that you're going to have soaked, if you start with a cup and half, it'll increase slightly after it soaks. And you blend that with 2 cups of water out of the out of the boiling water pot, blend the hell out of it, hopefully in a Vita
+
+[20:16] prep, then pour it into the pot with 7.5 cups, then blend another batch of soybeans with 2 cups water,
+
+[20:22] pour it in, take like a half cup of that boiling water, rinse out your blender, pour it in,
+
+[20:27] right? Bring that whole thing to a boil, then drain it off, press out the Okara, mix another 3 cups of the boiling water that you have left over with the Okara to get the rest out, squeeze it again. And then you have about a cup left over to use with your solidifier. Now, he also had problems. He was using Nagari. Nagari is the traditional Japanese solidifier that's used, and it's basically a derivative of C water. It's not the sodium part. They'll take the sodium chloride off the seawater. And then all the other calcium and magnesium salts that are left over. And you make the Nigari out of. And you can buy Nagari a bunch of different ways. You can buy it as a liquid, you can buy it as a solid. I have to say this. I have not had that good luck with Nigari myself. Um, I would say you'd probably, I don't know what you're using, but in our in the batch size that I do, which starts with a cup and a half of soybeans and ends up with about 15,
+
+[21:13] um, you know, 15 cups of water added to it. We end up, they recommend using like 2.5 to 4 teaspoons of the Negar, depending on whether they're using the solid or the liquid. But I use Epsom salts, which I really like, even though apparently I'm a
+
+[21:28] Philistine jerk, like moron for liking Epsom salts, but you can just go into Dwayne
+
+[21:33] Reed or CVS or whatever. buy Epsom salts. Dont use too much of it because it's a laxative. I use about 2 teaspoons of Epsom salts. Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. awesome stuff. You can also use calcium chloride, which all of you hydrocolloid fans probably have sitting around, even though it tastes horrible. It's not going to be that noticeable in the final batch. I would use also about 2 teaspoons of that or 2 teaspoons of magnesium chloride, which isn't going to taste nearly as bad as the calcium chloride. And you can use any one of those things. I've really had no luck using acid to make it, but other people other people have. And you're going to want to put it in several stages. You stir some in, and then you pour some over the top, let it sit, and it takes minutes for the curd to form. Another thing you're going to want to do is when you're getting the Kurds, you're going to want to press down on them and get the way out. Don't try to agitate it too much. You're going to break the curds up into tiny things and it's going to be a nightmare and all hell's going to break loose. So anyway, so I hope that does that sound helpful or does that sound? Wait, I have a question. My mom buys tofu and my dad won't eat it because he's like a meat and potatoes kind of guy. So what's the best recipe you have with tofu? Well, that's interesting. When I make my own tofu, I tend to just want to eat it because you put a lot of work into it and it's delicious. I hate the idea of taking tofu and making it into some fake other
+
+[22:44] crap. You know what I mean? The problem with most tofu that you buy, unless you're going to a like a high quality tofu shop where they're making their tofu every day, is that the tofu's been soaked in so much
+
+[22:55] water. It's sitting there in water that all of the actual flavor. The soybean has been leached out of it and it's basically worthless. You know, when you're making your own tofu, you have, I'm not going to offend anyone here. I mean, I don't mean it's worthless. You know what I mean? It just it's not for me. Like, I never use it. I never buy it. Like I like making tofu and using it, but I never buy it. When you make it yourself, you can use like you can keep it like a cloud tofu, which's not pressed at all, which is amazing in soups, a lot of Korean soups, done that
+
+[23:20] way, it's delicious. You know what I mean? You can make a very soft tofu, you can make a firmer tofu, you can mix stuff into the tofu and set it. But for me, the main key is that you haven't completely gotten rid of all the original way that's in
+
+[23:35] there, and there's no extra added flavorless water that's leached out what flavor it
+
+[23:39] has, because tofu has a really delicate, amazing flavor when it's used, when it's made
+
+[23:45] fresh, and it's used just as it is. And I literally like, I can't, I never have enough to use in recipes because I'm always just, you know, cutting it and then eating it with like an amazing dipping
+
+[23:54] sauce. But, you know, if you're going to buy tofu and I have to fry the hell out of it, that's going to help, you know what I mean? I'm going to help, you know, I don't know, like, uh, see if she can make it. Yeah, making tofu is amazing, and it shows you, it shows you kind of what you can do. I mean, it's really... I just don't. I mean I just don't much like the tofu that you buy in the store. Like, I just can't. I mean, I can eat it when it's, you know, chopped up and put into things, but I'm never like, wow, you know,
+
+[24:18] store bought tofu. That's amazing. We can't wait to have another thing of store bought tofu. You know what I mean? Okay. So, Dan from Seattle writes in and says, hello, I'm a fairly serious amateur cook. After enough media horror stories, I've started grinding my own meat, essentially all the time for any recipe that calls for ground beef, you
+
+[24:35] have, you have great, you know, stick tutiveness and patience thing, because that's kind of a pain in the butt to haul out your meat grinder every time you're going to make meat.
+
+[24:43] I have one problem on a relatively frequent basis. I get small bone chips even after very thorough trimming. Is there any systematic way to avoid this? Okay. First of all, notes on, notes on meat. When you're grinding your own meat, obviously you want to make sure that the cutters are sharp. I't know whether you're using a hand grinder or the KitchenAid attachment, right? But you want to make sure the cutters stay sharp. Otherwise, you're going to be pasting out and hurting, you know, basically pasting out the fat and overheating it when it's going in. Another thing is you're going to want to cut any kind of sinew or anything you don't want to eat out in general because it's not going to be pleasant and sometimes it can get stuck in the grinder as it goes through. So that's that's also bad. Third, when you're grinding meat, you're going to want to, and I haven't answered your question yet, I realize that. Third, when you're grinding meat, you're going to want to almost par freeze it, right? So that, uh, so that the texture stays good when it freezes through. You want to, like, not frozen solid, but basically, where it just starts to feel stiff and almost got a little bit of a crunch on the outside where it starts to freeze,
+
+[25:40] no freeze it harder than that, you feed it through, you're going to have much better results straight off the bat, right?
+
+[25:46] Now, some people pass it through twice. It really depends on the technique you're using, what kind of texture you want, whether you need to pass it through once or twice, but those are the basics of it. I think the main problem people have, and I know you say you're doing a thorough trimming is not trimming the meat properly. If you're putting just big chunks of meat in and sinews going in and
+
+[26:06] cartilage is going in, you're not going to have a good product. So I think trimming it before you grind it is the most important thing you can do. Trim it into the pieces, then put those pieces on a sheet tray, put them in the freezer,
+
+[26:19] parfreeze them, then grind them. That's the way to get good results. Also, remember, please make sure to thoroughly clean your sanitize your meat grinder so that nothing gets in there because, you know, otherwise you're introducing the same problems that you could get in commercially ground meat. Now, as for bones. If the best, if you're buying meat that was cut on a bandsaw, right? So like you're buying like just chunks of beef that were cut on a bandsaw and then trimming, there's always the
+
+[26:44] possibility because I don't know what cut of meat you're using, right? But there's always a possibility that you'll get a little piece of like chine bone or something in there that's very hard to see. Now, you could, when you trim the pieces before you grind them and before you freeze them down to grind them. If you trim all the pieces down and feel all over them, you know,
+
+[27:04] just rub your fingers all around them, you'll be able to feel if there's any sort of any sort of chips. But one way to do it is to buy, if you're buying whole muscle cuts, right? Like whole pieces to grind and then trimming them into the pieces yourself before you grind them, that's the way to avoid a lot of bones. Because you can see if someone's cut through, for instance, like the spine or something like that, or you see like a lot of bone things, you can see the entire structure of the
+
+[27:27] bone, and it's going to be a lot easier to cut all of those pieces out and trim down, then it's going to be if someone just takes meat and puts it in a bandsaw and it's hard to tell what the bone structure and the muscle structure is, right? So that's the 1st thing to do. And it also gives you like a real sense for the quality of the meat that you're using because you're going to be chopping it into strips. yourself. Um, because I, I, because I, that's when I grind, that's typically what I'm doing and I don't have problems with bone chips.
+
+[27:53] So I'm assuming I just, I'm just assuming that you're buying pre-cut meat, uh, like stew meat that's been like put through uh, a
+
+[28:00] band saw and that's always, there's always a slight chance that someone's going to get a bone chip in. What do you think, Nastasia? I think that's a good answer. You have to take a break. Oh, all right. So going on to our 2nd break, call your questions in to 718-497-2128.
+
+[28:13] That's 718-497218 uh 2128 cooking issues. You know what? When I hear a groove like this. Oh, say, I got to get out.
+
+[28:32] Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, man. Yeah, man. Look at you. Someone got a groove like this. You know? You know? No, I need the grip. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
+
+[29:03] Yeah, the job. Yeah, need to get down. Got bit no bread. You know, I believe, hey, every time, brother. I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down in order for me to get down. I got to get in deep. And order for me to get down. I gotta get in deep. Need to get in D. Dog, the D, Down, D. Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, calling all of your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. So, uh, so, Nastasia, tomorrow's a big day. We're going to be on Martha Stewart. Well, if someone's going to need to run the road of Apple, I'm talking to her, right? No. Huh? No, you're doing it legally. Yeah, but we need someone needs to run it. physically needs to run the machine while I'm there. For people out there who are thinking of getting a road app, it does not run itself, folks. The machine does not run itself. And we're doing a live segment tomorrow, which is going to include, we're going to carbonate. going to be doing a gin and tonic where we're, actually, it's pretty cool. We're going to take up, so for those of you out there that have access to liquid nitrogen, kudos to you. If not, get yourself access to liquid nitrogen. It's an amazing amazing material. So we're going to take, we're going to take blood oranges because Nastasia is fascinated with blood oranges. And we're going to use an enzyme, peck the next, SPL, our favorite miracle enzyme, and we're going to chemically supreme the, the, uh, the, the blood
+
+[30:45] oranges, and the reason to do that is because supreming, by the way, for those of you that aren't
+
+[30:50] hip to the fact, right? So the way supreming is basically where you cut the peel off and then you and then you slice it, you don't, you only have the
+
+[30:57] little little vesicles, little pips. you don't have any of the, uh, any of the uh, what's it called? The membrane. Yeah, the membrane in there, right? So that's supreming, right? Problem with supreming a blood orange is if you suprema blood orange, they're going to leak
+
+[31:08] everywhere and we don't want any leakage because we don't want the we want the drink to stay perfectly clear. We don't want any blood orange juice leaking out of the thing. So we're not going to supreme them. normally. We're going to use Pectinex SPL. Our favorite, uh, pectin, uh, liaise slash hemicellulose, uh, breaking down enzyme. That's the same one we use to make French fries. It's the same one we use when we're clarifying any damn fruit juice, right? We go through SPL like the end of the world is coming, and you can buy from cookingissue.com. Yes or no? Yeah, we have a little bit left. Well, we're gonna have to get more. I mean, we use that stuff all the time. Anyway, it's a miracle enzyme. The guys at Nova Symes who make it, they admit that it's a miracle enzyme. Pick an XSPL. Anyway, so we're going to take Pectinex SPL and chemically supremate so that we don't have to we can get rid of all the membranes without actually touching, you know, with a knife, the blood orange.
+
+[32:00] And then we're going to put that in liquid nitrogen and freeze it solid. And what happens there is, is that when you freeze citrus in liquid
+
+[32:08] nitrogen, and then really hard, and then you hit it with a rolling pin, all the little juice vesicles, the little pips break apart, and they stay
+
+[32:16] whole and they're not broken, and then you can use them as a garnish, which is what we're going to do.
+
+[32:21] So we're basically going to pour a gin and tonic over a bunch of these frozen blood orange things. And we tried it yesterday. It's pretty, it's pretty darn cool. It's pretty, pretty good looking. It tastes good. And uh, Don Lee, uh, bartender friend of ours, Don Lee, suggested we call it Gin Sacksack, after the Korean
+
+[32:38] sacksack, pulpy drink. Sack sack. anyway. So we're going to do that. We're going to run the rotary evaporator live, which we've never done it live before, have we, for a live show? Yeah, for Jimmy. Well, Jimmy Fallon was pre-recorded. We ran it like it was live, but it was pre-recorded. So anyway. So we'll get to have the fun of running a rotary evaporator. I think we're going to do We normally do scotch and peanuts. We going to do bourbon and peanuts because our good folks at Maker's Mark, that does a whole bunch of Maker's Mark, and that's what we're going to use. So what else are we doing on this show, Styles? And I think the ISI trick? Oh, yeah, we're going to do some ISI infusion with cocoa nibs. At least this is what I think, we'll see whether they pair us down. But anyway, that's what that's what we're going to work on. Speaking of Paris. I know I spoke about this before. I don't want to get too into it because I know I've spoken about it before. I don't want to bore the hell out of you guys, but this I have a I need help on this. Obviously, the 2 pairs that Nastasia and I tasted that were like, damn, I need that
+
+[33:30] pair, right? Damn. One was Narun Barun, N-A-R-U-N-B-A-R-U-N, right? It's in the list of stuff at the Broguedale, which is the miracle fruit collection in Kent that Nastasia and I visited a couple weeks ago. Nurun Burun is the pair that it eats like a pear. It's juicy like a pear. has no astringency whatsoever and has the aroma and taste of a quince. It's a miracle pair. Sucker is a miracle. However, it is nowhere else to be found. I could not find any other collections that have it. I couldn't find any references to it. If anyone out there, and we've gotten in touch with the agricultural extension, the germ plasm library for pairs in the US, which is in Corvallis,
+
+[34:12] Oregon. We haven't heard back from them yet, but if any of you have any knowledge of this pair or of any other pair that tastes
+
+[34:18] like and smells like a quince but has no astringency, please get in touch with us because I'm desperately seeking
+
+[34:24] this. It's a miracle pair. Hey Dave, how do you spell it? N-A-R-N-A-R-U-N, new word, B-A-R-U-N, Narun Barun. I think it's derived from Turkish, meaning like awesome scent or something like that. I think it in Turkish, I think it means like awesome scent or graceful scent or something like that. The other pair that we can't seem to find that was delicious was Nimrod. And I know it sounds like, you know, like a moron, like Nimrod, but it was right there on the thing. And we'll put pictures on because I'm going to put the pair post up soon, God willing. But Nimrod tasted like candy. The pear tasted like candy. So we want anyone to find these, correct? We want anyone to find these pairs. Help us find these pairs. Please help us find these pairs. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, uh, also, uh, we, we're working on a, a new project, one that we've actually been working on before that we're extremely, extremely excited about, and it's not
+
+[35:18] technically uh, technical related at all. We tried to make it technically related, but we couldn't. is Dragon's Beard candy. So for those of you out there who don't know anything about Dragon's
+
+[35:28] Beard candy. What you're basically doing is it's hand pulled cotton candy, right? And so what you do is you cook a mixture of sugar, technically they would use
+
+[35:39] maltose, the Chinese recipes I've seen use maltose, but you can just use a little bit of corn syrup. So, like, I think we did like a kilo of sugar and, like, 100 or 200 grams of corn syrup, like a teaspoon of vinegar, which helps invert the sugar even more so that you're not going to get too much crystallization
+
+[35:58] problems. Water, you cook the whole thing up to about 133 Celsius, right? Pull it off at like 132. It's going to rise up. And then you let it cool down. You set it into kind of hockey puck shapes, right? Then after it sets into a hockey puck shape hard. You nuke it for like 10 seconds to make it pliable again, and then you form it into a
+
+[36:18] donut, and then as you after you form it into a donut, you pull it in your hands, keeping it very even, and you keep dredging it
+
+[36:26] in. We used cornstar, so you can use rice flour. We'd use cornstarch. You keep dredging it in this, and then flipping it as a figure 8 and basically every time you flip it to figure 8 and put it back into a circle again and keep pulling it, you're doubling the number of strands.
+
+[36:39] So we do this like 13, 14 times, which is like, you know, 2 to the 13th. So we're talking 1000s of threads by the time you're done, hence
+
+[36:49] dragon's beard, because it looks like little like threads of canyon. The stuff is amazing. Stuff is awesome. It's got a fantastic texture. It's totally different from cotton candy. trick is, and we're going to put it up on the blog. The trick is pulling it the right way. And so you can look on there's videos on the web, a guy named Peter Pang. I'm not making that a Peter Pang, P-A-N-G, has, and it's his recipe that we use basically. He has a thing where you can see it. There's a bunch of things if you look up Dragon's Beard on the internet that you can see people doing this, but they don't really tell you the key.
+
+[37:21] Here's the key to it, to do it right, is basically the front hand, and you'll have to look on the website. The front hand holds still the back hand pulls the candy, and then you reverse, grip it again, and pull it. And that's the that's the trick. If you really, whenever this is any chef, by the way, it's not just with dragon's beard. I almost always ignore everything that a chef is saying because a lot of times it's wrong. And I've spent all of my time focusing on their hands. Like, how are their hands connected to the food? How is their hand connected to the knife? Like, for instance, like learning soba? I was at a soba class with soba, you know, buckwheat noodles. And I was at a soba class once, and everyone was looking at the chef's face, and while the chef was sitting there cutting the noodles by
+
+[38:04] hand, because you cut the sober noodles with a hand with a special knife. Useless. Well, you can look at the guy's face. The guy's face doesn't cut noodles. You know what I mean? The guy's hand cuts noodles. So you want to sit there and like watch the dude's hand, and that's how you learn anything. It's the same thing with the dragon's beard. The only way that we were able to get somewhat proficient. is not by the instructions that are on the web because they're basically useless. It's watching their hands and seeing what's happening. And then practicing. Now, that's the good news. That's a good tip. That's a good tip, right? The bad news is, is that that, you know, I kind of like my job is a tech guy, right? The FCI. I figured we're going to tech it up. So I was like, we're not going to use rice flour or cornstar churning, stupid. Oh, by the way, I also spray it with a little pan before I start, so I'm cheating, so, you know, don't tell anyone. That's kind of technical. Yeah, kind of technical. Yeah, right. there you go. Pam, boom, tech. Anyway, so no. So we were like, okay, we're going to use, well, we tried tapioca, and Zorbit, and
+
+[38:54] Zorbit, N. By the way, when you ask for tapioca maltodextrin, and you want to make a powder out of an oil. I don't know how many times I've said this to people. Do not say just tapioca malta dexter and say, Enzorbit, M, I think. Tapioca Maltadextrin from the National Stars Corporation because no other tapioca Maltadextrin will make a powder out of an oil. Anyway, that said, I said a 1000000 times, yes, still happens. anyway, whatever. So we try to mix flavorful oil with tapioca maltodexter and then cut it with cornstarch and the texture wasn't as good, right? Texture is no good. And then we tried, this is, I had such high hopes for this. We bought almond flour, which was delicious in Chinatown. It had almond and a little bit of bitter almond in it, so it tasted like an amaretto cookie. The flour did. Great stuff by itself. We then bought like some really expensive freeze dried raspberries and blended them with the almond flour to make a powder, put it through a
+
+[39:45] sieve, so it was nice and fine. And then we dragged the dragon's beard as we were making it instead of
+
+[39:50] through cornstars to that stuff. And it looked amazing. It tasted amazing texture sucked. Texture was terrible. It was not nearly as good, right? Right, yeah. It's kind of unfortunate. So if any of you guys out there have a some sort of technique to do this and to tech it up, then I can start demoing it like up, down, left and right because that stuff is super, super
+
+[40:12] delicious, right? Okay. So on my way out, I'm going to make a list. This is why people can keep me honest, right? Of what posts we're supposed to be working on on the blog? Right. Well, and also people who want to come to the hydrocholates class. Can they sign up? No, no. We have a hydrocolloids class on this Thursday and Friday, but it's already totally full because it's maxed out at
+
+[40:31] 17 well, kind of, yeah. Yes, it's maxed out at 17, so you have to sign up sign up for the next one. So, here are the posts that I'm going to pretend that I'm doing very soon, but we need to get it done. By the way, so we've done a lot of tests recently on
+
+[40:45] combo, combo is delicious. Someone's got to keep me honest. We've done a lot, a lot of interesting work with Kombu, our good friend Yuji Haraguchi at True World Foods, our Japanese mega
+
+[40:55] supplier, sent us some amazing combo. We're tasted from the top, from the bottom, from the center, different concentration. So it's really building on our old post on combo, which you can check out. I love myself from combo. Got to obviously do the pair post. Someday I have to get back and finish those low temperature cooking things, right? But the most recent post we have out is on country ham. And I encourage you to go read it. I love American country ham. One of our sponsors, actually, of our show is S. Wallace Edwards, who makes one of the finest country hams here in the United States. Which one did we have last night? We had from Finchville Farms. Finchville Farms is a manufacturer in Kentucky. that was actually just bought recently a couple years ago by someone, but who's kept all the old techniques that the Robertsons
+
+[41:37] used and the Robertsons are still there, you know, curing country hams. But I encourage everyone to buy more American country ham and
+
+[41:45] just, please, please, do not, well, you can cook it if you have to. Don't overcook a country ham. And better yet, don't cook it at all. Slice it on a meat slicer and serve it like prosciutto. So, uh, go eat your country ham, try out S. Wallace Edwards, try out Finchville Farms, try out. Colonel Newsom's out of Kentucky, try Alan Benton out of Tennessee. Try Burger Smokehouse, which makes a bunch of commodity hams, also makes a really delicious attic age
+
+[42:13] one, which is their special one. They're out of Missouri. What did you say? heritage What, heritage? They don't make a country ham. Oh, or just eat their ham. Yeah, hammock. Look, a fresh ham is a fresh, is a fresh ham, right? Like, God wants hams to be cured. He especially wants them to be cured into country hams and
+
+[42:31] are dry cured hams. Like, this is like, like, if a pig is gonna die, right? You're going to kill a pig, right? Pigs are smart. They're friendly, they're amazing creatures. You're going to kill this pig because it's so delicious. Like, you owe it to the pig to make the ham into a dry cured country ham. Seriously. Like, it's like the height of what can happen to a pig in terms of meat. It's the height of what can happen. I mean, anyway, that's my feeling about it. Thank you. This has been cooking issues and we'll see you again next week.
+
+[43:12] You've been listening to cooking issues on the heritage radio network. And today at 3 PM, there will be a live episode of the food scene on HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[43:24] Ian Nauer spent nearly a decade cooking in Gourmet's Test Kitchen, catered for Inigarten and the Barefoot Contessa herself, and now is writing a cookbook for Haughton Mifflin based on being a big city country boy. Again, tune into the food scene on heritageradionetwork.com every Tuesday at 3 p.m. And right now, we're running a promotion where you, the listener, can win 5
+
+[43:46] Porterhouse pork chops. All you need to do is send me an email at info@heritageradionetwork.com or follow us on Twitter at HRN update, send me a message. The 1st person to contact me with the code word bib salad will win 5 porterhouse pork chops from
+
+[44:04] Heritage Foods USA. Again, you've been listening to the Heritage radio network. Thanks for tuning in. Jan. Now when my baby sees me. She's gonna bust my head right in.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this
+
+[0:18] corner and I don't know where I'm at. Hello, you were listening to
+
+[0:26] cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues, the show where you crawl in with all your cooking related questions, usually technical, but not always, right? I'm here in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, the person who keeps the wheels on the cooking issues train. Colin, all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We'll be here live for the next 45 minutes or so. And today's cooking issues is brought to you by Cabot Cheese. Uh, Cabo cheese of Vermont, Dairy Farm, family owned since 1919, and proud to be voted your favorite uh, four-time favorite champion cheddar. Whoever you happen to be. Look for the really great taste of cabbot cheese in your favorite grocery dairy case or on the web at
+
+[1:11] cabbotcheese.com. So Nastasia apparently it's not carried at grocery stores that are not your favorite. Only your favorite. Only carried in your favorite, your favorite local grocery store. Actually, you know, Cabot does actually make some excellent products. Um, I've actually had cabins in a while, but we'll go try it. Anyway, uh, So, uh, let's go to some before we have any on-air questions. Let's go to some questions from the email. Ryan Santos writes in. I just recently became fascinated with Vietnamese egg soda, but they confused me in theory. First of all, everything I read on the internet says that the soda cooks the egg. Is there any truth to that? Secondly, how does it foam up so much? I'd expect that from egg white, but they use egg yolks. Thanks, Ryan. Okay, so for those of you that aren't familiar with Vietnamese egg sodas, which I assume is 99.9% of you. I was not familiar with it before this morning when I saw this question. What happens is, is you put some sweetened condensed milk in the bottom of a glass, you crack an egg yolk into it,
+
+[2:07] and you stir it around to combine the sweetened condensed milk in the egg yolk, and then you top it with soda water, and then you
+
+[2:12] stir, and it does indeed foam up, and it gets white at the bottom, and apparently it's
+
+[2:19] delicious. I didn't have sweetened condensed milk, so I didn't taste it. I actually did crack an egg yolk into soda water this morning. Take a look at it. I'm going to go ahead and make this statement. The egg yolk is not in any way, shape, or form getting cooked in this procedure. Like, do not think in any way that you are killing the bacteria in the egg yolk by adding it to seltzer. That's just, uh, not the case. That's just not the case. So, I didn't see any scientific backup for the egg yolk being cooked. Again, do not assume it is cooked. If you were going to serve it to someone who is has an immune problem or is pregnant or
+
+[2:57] you have to use pasteurized egg to use this technique. Now, uh, that said, um, you know, there's not that much contamination in egg yolks these days, so it's probably not going to be
+
+[3:07] a problem. I think it's one in, I don't know, one in 2001 and 8000 or something like that. Eggs is contaminated with salmonella. So the odds aren't very high, and you're not necessarily going to get salmonella, even if you do, even if it does have salmonella in it. That's it. The egg yolk also is going to cause a lot of foaming, similar to the way an egg white does because it contains a lot of emulsifier. So egg whites foam because of the protein, which helps stabilize air bubbles. And egg yolks, they also have protein, which might help stabilize air bubbles, but they have a lot of emulsifiers in them. And emulsifiers, you know, as you may know, or of things that make it easier for oil and water to kind of live together next to each other.
+
+[3:45] They lower the energy required to keep oil and water next to each other. Now, they also lower the energy to keep air and water next to each other. And so not only do they stabilize oil and water emulsions, they also stabilize air in water
+
+[4:02] emulsions. So the protein plus the emulsifiers, like less thin phosphilipids, things like this. Any egg yolk are going to help produce a nice foam. And if you, you know, you know from cooking that you beat egg yolks, you can make them really thick and creamy.
+
+[4:14] They hold, they hold foam fairly well, not as well as an egg white, but still, there's a lot of
+
+[4:20] foamy potential there, especially in something gassy like CO2. That said also, I have to say, Ryan, that you caused my computer to crash in a huge way this
+
+[4:29] morning because the 1st Vietnamese egg soda recipe I looked up happened to be on a porn site. And then when I try to get off of the porn site, to look up other things about Vietnamese egg soda, it kept on like, you know, like a 1000000 windows
+
+[4:44] who would come up and say, stop. Do you like Asian women? Do you like Asian women? Don't navigate away from our side. If you like Asian women. So, thank you, Ryan, for crashing my computer. Okay. Second question comes from Chris Anderson in New York City. I was wondering if there are any differences in the way you would sous vide a highly marbleized piece of
+
+[5:02] beef like USDA Prime or Wagyu as opposed to choice or select. I read somewhere that the Fat and Wagyu renders it a lower temp than standard beef, but I'm not sure if this is true. Also, some people suggest searing meat, both pre- and post-Souveet, and we are some of those people, actually. Is there any advantage to this technique? Yes. over just searing it once right before serving. Okay, these are excellent questions. I have not done a lot of cooking with Wagyu. My assumption is, is that even if the fat does render it a lower temperature, which would indicate a less saturated
+
+[5:31] fat. Like, for instance, you know, take, for instance, pork. Pork, the pork fat's a lot less saturated than beef fat. And even pork fat doesn't really render out that much when you're cooking sous vide, especially at the temperatures you're going to be using to cook a piece of Wagyu, which are going to be in the range of 54 to no higher, even for skirt or something like that, 57
+
+[5:52] degrees, unless you're doing a short rib or something Celsius. So in that range, you're really not going to get a lot of fat melt out in
+
+[6:00] in your in your meat, even if it's, you know, fairly, um, even if it's fairly unsaturated, uh, from a beef standpoint, that is.
+
+[6:08] So now, um, as to whether or not the texture is going to be different. I don't know. I just don't have enough experience, but my guess is is that it's going to handle pretty much in the same way. It's just going to have more marbling in the center. A lot of people try to use, uh, the, a question I get asked a lot for sous vide. And by the way, for those who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, Sous vide, it is any kind of cooking that goes on in a vacuum bag, and it allows you to, you know, cook at a very accurate temperature in conjunction with low temperature cooking, which is really what I like to talk about most of the
+
+[6:36] time instead of just sous vide, where we very accurately control the temperature. So there's no possibility of overcooking your meat. And because of that, you tend meats that don't have a lot of internal marbling, things like, you know,
+
+[6:47] lower, lower grade cuts of meat, they don't dry out just because you never overcooked them, right? So a higher grade cut of meat with a lot of internal marbling is going to taste juicy and delicious because it's got all that dang fat in it, right? Which is great. You know what I mean? But a lower one tends to dry out faster because it doesn't have that protection of all that fat. And while it is true that lower grades can be cooked to good effect using sous vide. I've never been the kind of person who says, well, I can take a crappy cut of meat now and pretend that it's a good cut
+
+[7:11] of meat and serve it to someone, right, Nastasia? Right. We're against that, yeah. Anyway. But that said, it's a great technique for that. As for your 2nd question about searing both before and after. Yes, you should see her both before and after. If you just see her, uh, and we, if you come, by the way, the best way to, you know, not to toot our own horn, toot, toot, toot, but the best way to learn how
+
+[7:32] to to, to do this, if you don't have time in your restaurant, which almost no one does, uh, even if you've been doing
+
+[7:37] a sous vide in low temp for a while, we teach a course called sous vide and low temperature cooking at the
+
+[7:42] school. And what we do, for instance, is give you a bunch of side-by-side taste tests of what it tastes like if you just sear it
+
+[7:50] before or if you sear it just after, or if you sear it before and after, or if you don't sear it. And really the best way to do it is, and you can just taste it if you can do it side by side. And really one of the main values of the class that we teach is that we do all these comparisons for you that you would never have time to
+
+[8:04] do in your restaurant or at home. That said, you know, if you just see her after, can you get a good result? Yes, but something on the order of 75 to 80% of the any given person in a
+
+[8:19] room, uh, and we've done this, you know, many, many, many, many dozens of times, 75 to 80% of the people, given a side by side test, will prefer the one
+
+[8:27] that seared both before and after. And it's also safer. Here are the reasons. You see it beforehand, you kill the bacteria on the outside of the meat, which is where most of the bacteria are anyway, unless you stab the meat by accident or something like that, right? So there's a safety issue. Secondly, you're going to start coloring the meat and you're going to start building the Maillard flavors in it, which means it's going to taste meatier in the bag, and it's also the 2nd time when you sear it. It's going to build a crust a lot, lot, lot faster, which means you're going to get a darker crust, a better crust, a more flavorful
+
+[8:56] crust on your 2nd seer, if you prime that seer at the beginning by searing it before you put it in the bag. You know, the one caveat, you have to chill the meat after you sear it before you put it in the bag. But you always have to see her afterwards, because coming right out of the bag, there is no crust. It's kind of like, you know, kind of, I don't know, weak looking, right? Weak? Week, week, week. The meat is weak, you are weak. Anyway, so you have to see her before and after. Thanks for your question, Chris. Michael Nackin writes in. He says, so I just tried the cream whipper infusion with cocoa nibs. And by the way, we have a new technique using the ISI whipped cream makers, and you can read about it on cookingissues.com. And it basically what we're doing is we're using nitrous oxide, which is laughing gas, the stuff that, you know, in high school
+
+[9:40] people, they buy whipped cream, and they just spray the gas into their mouth to get high instead of the whipped cream, which is the part I like.
+
+[9:46] Anyway, because I hate being high on nitrous. It's terrible. It's awful. It makes you feel really stupid, right? I don't know. Oh yeah, okay. Okay, series, you always say. All right, sure. Okay. So, uh, so anyway, so you put, uh, you put your food, a porous thing, along with a liquid, we usually use liquor into a container, you hit it with nitrous oxide, the nitrous oxide, under pressure, uh,
+
+[10:05] becomes dissolves into the liquid and also forces the liquid into the pores of whatever uh, you're doing, cocoa nibs, star anis, uh, whatever. And then you let it pressurize in and sit for a minute, 2 minutes, 3
+
+[10:17] minutes. depends on the product. And then you vent the thing really quickly. When you vent the container, the gas, all of a sudden, the pressure is lowered and it starts bubbling, gushing out, almost like if you shook a can of seltzer and opened it and sprayed it on your buddy, right?
+
+[10:29] And that gushing out and that foaming basically sucks the flavor back out of your product very quickly and you can make very quick infusion. So that's, you know, in a nutshell, that's ISI, that's ISI infusion, you know, nitrous infusion. A lot of people, I mean, get into this because a lot of people, you know, there's a lot of back and forth on the blog, and a lot of people compare it with a technique in
+
+[10:47] the laboratory called nitrogen cavitation. In nitrogen cavitation. You're basically giving someone the bends on purpose. You're putting very high pressure, nitrogen into something, and then immediately releasing the pressure, which causes small nitrogen bubbles to form and rupture things
+
+[11:01] apart, nitrogen cavitation. This is not, this technique, I don't really think it's the exact same as nitrogen cavitation. In a laboratory, you want to use something that's fairly unreactive, like nitrogen, and it's fairly low solubility so that when you're done with the procedure, most of it's gone, right? So this technique works at a much lower pressure than nitrogen
+
+[11:20] cavitation, because it's using a relatively soluble gas, something that wants to be soluble in
+
+[11:26] liquid, nitrous, right? Which is why I think, I think, I don't know, a lot of people say that these infusions taste better after they've been sitting
+
+[11:34] five, 10, 15 minutes. And I think it's because the nitrous keeps off gassing out of the product. Now I think that's what's going on, but I can't, but I can't prove it. So, um, So Michael says his cocoa nib uh, tasted like uh, a donkey's behind and uh, his
+
+[11:50] cocoa nib infusion that he's done. And he said the nibs were raw. He got them at a health food store, presumably aimed at raw foodist. Is that where I went wrong? Short answer, yes. Should I be using toasted nibs? Short answer. Yes. And have you tried it with chopped up bar chocolate instead of nibs? No. So let me go into this the longer form of this answer, piece by piece. One, the quality of the nibs makes a huge difference in the quality of the infusion you're
+
+[12:15] going to get. Huge, huge, right? Yeah. Huge. Yeah. So we've tried it with a bunch of nibs, even expensive nibs. And if you taste the nibs and they taste acrid or if they taste kind of sour, or if they have any sort of off flavor at all, that's going to end up in your infusion and your
+
+[12:32] infusion is going to taste like a donkey's behind. Now, uh, and we've done this with expense, even expensive companies that'll sell you their 2nd grade nibs,
+
+[12:40] uh, they tend to taste, they taste bad, right? Also, um, and I have nothing, I myself have friends who are raw foodists, so I'm not saying anything against the raw
+
+[12:50] foodists, but I have not yet had a raw chocolate bar that I thought tasted like
+
+[12:55] chocolate. Right? I mean, anyone here, oh, by the way, we just got joined in the studio by Nick Wong. He doesn't want to talk, but he's here. So the presence of Nick is in the room. And I was, have you ever tasted a raw chocolate bar that you enjoyed? I'm not allowed to talk. What? No. Right? No. Nastasia, have you ever tasted a raw chocolate bar that you've liked? Now, listen, here's a challenge, a challenge to anyone out there, right? I want I want to eat a raw chocolate bar that I think is the best chocolate bar I've ever
+
+[13:23] had. I'm going to issue a challenge. If someone can send me, if someone can send me a raw chocolate bar that I think, and I'm not a liar, by the way, if I think it's delicious, I'll say it's delicious. Everyone here agree about that? Like, I'm not a liar about that. Right? No not about that. Yeah. So if someone sends me a chocolate bar that's raw, that I think is truly delicious. I will only eat raw food for a week, and I will say how much I love it. On the blog and on. eat raw food for a week? Only raw food for a week. If someone sends me a chocolate bar that's raw, and I'll learn how to cook it, now I'm going to do all that stuff. If someone can truly send me something that is a chocolate bar that's
+
+[13:56] raw. And by the way, I think a lot of raw food people get snowed by the idea of raw chocolate because there's a fermentation
+
+[14:04] procedure, the temperatures get quite high. I don't know. It has to be, uh, you know, there's bacteria in cocoa nibs, it has to be pasteurized. I don't know how you would actually pasteurize cocoa nibs and actually actually keep them raw. What they might mean is pasteurized but unroasted. I don't know. I don't really understand even in theory how that would happen. But so there's a challenge for the raw the raw chocolate bar. So, um... Yeah, I hope so too. Because that would be it would be a good learning experience for me. Now, the chalked up chocolate bar. I think is going to work very well because it's just not very porous. There's not a lot of air in the chocolate to get a good infusion across it. If you, I mean, if you're going to use bar chocolate, I would use something more similar to fat washing where you would melt the chocolate into the, uh, into the, um, what are the word I'm looking for, like liquor, and then, uh, and then put it in the freezer and then separate the chocolate out of the top, but you're going to get some of the bitterness out that you're not going to get in the very fast infusion that we
+
+[14:58] do uh, with with our technique. If you want to try with cocoa nibs, I recommend, and, you know, they're not paying us for it or anything, but we've had the best results with the
+
+[15:08] Valona cocoa nibs among cocoa nibs. And the reason we use nibs, like I say, as opposed to bar chocolate. is just nibs are very porous. you know, a lot of air holes in them, so we can get very good, you know, in and out. We could put the liquor in, get the liquor out. So I hope that helps with your with your cocoa nib infusion problem. We going to go to our 1st commercial break, call in all your questions too, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128, cooking issues. You feel good. There's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, jam! You're getting down. Look down. We're gonna have a pump, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump. Good time, take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right, I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh?
+
+[16:29] Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow up my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in just going to that within us now, all right? I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. Yo, James, horn on me. Red, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Man!
+
+[17:45] Welcome back to Cooking Issues Radio. Dave Arnold here at Cooking Issues. Call in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not 2, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[18:03] coming to you live from a little box outside of Roberta's
+
+[18:07] Pizzeria in Bushwick, in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Actually, um, the good people from Roberta's did an event with us. What was it? This last weekend, right? What was that thing called? That was called, like, Tastes like teen spirit, was it? Alchemy of taste and smell. Alchemy of taste and smell? Yeah, that was the name of it? Oh, Jesus, we can't remember the name of it. All right. Well, Daniel Patterson, who's actually, you know, one of my favorite chests from the San Francisco Bay Area. And if you ever get out to his restaurant, Qua, in San Francisco, you should definitely go. It's one of my favorite restaurants. He's kind of hilarious because when you meet him, he seems like a laid back Californian, but he's really like not at all laid back, right? I mean, he's like apparently laid back, but not. Is that true? Yeah, no, it's true. So he wrote a cookbook, whose name I can't remember because I'm an idiot, and I didn't look it up before I came on the air. And he, it was basically with a perfumer, a natural perfumer named Mandy Aftel, and it was about using central oils and
+
+[19:05] different, you know, essences in cooking. And so Mandy and Daniel teamed up to come over to New York and have this event about basically taste and smell, whose name we apparently can't remember, even though we worked it for 2 days last weekend. Yeah. And so there was a, there was a, you know, a bunch of interesting folks involved, Harold McGee came in. Dave Chang was there, Wiley Dufrayne, you know, my brother-in-law, my bro, Wiley. Who else do we have there? Nastasi, remember? Alex Talbot from Alex Talbot. I already said Roberts. Carl was there. Carlos was there. Anyway. So we had, who else was there? Alex Talbot from Ideas and Food. George Mendes from Aldea, like a bunch of friends. Who else was? I know I'm missing someone who's like going to be like all pissed because I've, anyway, like a bunch of real. yeah right. No, because the one person who listens is going to go tell them about it. Anyway, so a bunch of very good, good people. So, uh, I don't know, how are they on this? Yeah, the alchemy and tastes and smellers, right? Yeah. So it was a fun event. We did a rotary evaporator presentation with Audrey Saunders, who did basically all the cocktails for the
+
+[20:12] event. some really actually very good cocktails. Audrey Saunders from Pegu Club. I don't know why the hell I started talking about that. Maybe because... Flavors, smells. Mandy Afto. Yeah, she's really interesting. She's like, she's a, so she is, she kind of nutty in a good way,
+
+[20:27] right? Nastasia, would you say? Not in a good way. And she gave us some like super high grade, Hovia, Hovia frankincense. like from Oman, some sort of crazy, good frankincense from Oman, and had us distill it in cognac. It was pretty good. What do you think? You know, I mean, it was strong. Uh, strong. Anyway, so that was a fun event. That's what we were doing this weekend. And I had a reason to talk about it, but I can't remember what it is. So I'll go on to something else. Oh, we have a color? Caller, you are on the air. Hi there. My name is Colin. I'm from Washington, DC. Sorry, the signal is probably kind of bad from what it sounds like. I'm okay, I can hear you. Yeah, so we've got 2 things. Uh, one is, I, I've been working with schedule one. Uh, and looking to... sort of draw out that tingling kind of numbing parasites, you get from them, more for the, uh, section,
+
+[21:26] you little flavor of them. Okay. Uh, so looking at ways to kind of concentrate that and kind of make
+
+[21:33] it, the, the, one of the big issues is that it seems to take a couple minutes to really warm up and kick in when you just
+
+[21:44] incorporate, uh, maybe ground peppercorns and company. But I was looking to see if there are ways to kind of
+
+[21:52] speed that up a bit so that it, you know, isn't, so if you're not done with the thing that
+
+[21:57] was having to eat by the time you finally get this numbing kind of healing thing. All right, let me, okay, stay in the air because I might have to ask you a question. But 1st of all, very interesting. It's the 1st person who's ever had like a crazy cell connection where it sounds like he's on an auto tuner,
+
+[22:11] right? It's like T-Pain calling into the studio. It's like, you know, I love auto-tooting. Everyone now, of course, loves auto tuning, but anyway, so like kudos to the auto tuning cell phone reception because that's awesome. Second of all, so in case you couldn't understand, because my connection's probably better than yours over the radio for listeners, the question was he's using Szechuan peppercorns, he's not so interested. I mean, he's interested, but not for this application in the flavor of the Szechuan peppercorn, more in the effect, the mouth, the numbing, tingling effect of the Szechuan peppercorn. And so, and the question is, how can you concentrate or, you know, get these kind of flavors concentrated. Okay. It's very interesting. Someone just asked me last week or so whether I can distill the tingling effect of Szechuan peppercorn and as one way to
+
+[22:53] concentrate it, for instance. And the answer is, I don't know because I don't know what chemical it is, so I don't know how volatile is, whether it can be distilled. But I'm pretty sure that you can make a tincture of Szechuan peppercorn in high-proof alcohol and get that, get that out. The other alternative you have. I mean, besides tinctures, and possibly distillation, depending on the weight. So for instance, capsation, the heat from red pepper doesn't distill because it's too heavy, but the pungency of horseradish does distill. My feeling, if I had to guess, is that Sichuan peppercorn, the tingling
+
+[23:23] sensation would not distill because you can't smell it the same way you can smell the, I mean, you can smell the Sichuan peppercorn, but not that kind of pungency, the same way you could with like a horseradish, for instance, or a wasabi, both of which distill.
+
+[23:35] So my feeling is, is that you probably won't be able to steal it. You have to use a, you have to use an infusion or, you could try the ISI infusion, actually, frankly, right? Where you just put the Szechuan peppercorn in an ISI container and then, you know, hit it with liquor, high proof liquor, and hit it with 2 chargers. Swirl it, let it stand, swirl it for like a minute, let it sit for another minute, vent it out, let it stand for 5 minutes,
+
+[24:00] strain and see whether you get a good result. It actually probably worked, don't you think? Nastasia that? think that would work. Yeah, we were going to try that last week with Cliff, remember? Oh, is that Cliff? Anyway. So, but here's some other alternatives if that doesn't work. Of course, you know, you're probably familiar with the product called Szechuan Buttons, which is a little flower, but
+
+[24:17] it's, I don't really like, I mean, I have friends who make them and sell them, so I don't want to say anything too negative about them, but I have a problem with them because they're so strong that it's
+
+[24:26] tastes, and they're not as subtle as Szechuan peppercorn, and that Szechuan peppercorn gives you like a little bit of that funkiness and like a mouth cooling thing, this tastes like you just stuck your tongue on a car
+
+[24:36] battery to me. Like it's too, it's too aggressive. And so, uh, I, you know, I can't really, uh, I can't, I can't imagine using it just because it's so, so aggressive and the effects are so long lasting that, you know,
+
+[24:48] like I'd have a problem serving it. That's me, though. A lot of people love them. Another thing that you might want to look into is on the Japanese side, instead of going for a Chinese Szechuan peppercorn, go for like a Sancho pepper, which, you know, these little green ones, and apparently the best ones have like
+
+[25:03] two, in other words, like they look like little green balls, and then, but some of them have like 2 green balls, which look, I hate to say this on there, but like
+
+[25:10] testicles kind of. They say it looks like a bell, but really they mean testicle. Anyway, and those are the ones that are most prized. Guess why? Anyway, so they uh, so those uh, peppers. this little Sancho things. I think it's Sancho, right? Sancho. Yeah. Anyway, those are kind of intermediate between the Szechuan peppercorn, which are drier, and maybe have some of their pungency gone away, and
+
+[25:31] the Szechuan buttons, which I think are just kind of like hitting you over the head with a baseball bat. So you might want to try that. Is any of this helpful? You still there? No, he's gone. Anyway. So thank you, Colin, Colin, the auto tuning, Colin. And I hope that answers some of your some of your questions. So, uh, meanwhile, let's get back to uh, some more of our other questions, which Nastasia thought it would be fun to start looking up directions to someplace while we're in the middle of the radio shows that I can't see my
+
+[26:03] questions anymore. Uh, just, you know, I like to I like to nudge her a little bit while while we're here. So, uh, Nick Wong, who is formerly an intern with us at the school, one of our favorites, good men, and now working at Sambar, uh, Sambar, you know, our friend Dave Chang's, uh, one of his restaurants, they're working on uh,
+
+[26:21] elderberry vinegar. So he brought in some for us to taste. is true or false. True. to get closer to the microphone when you say true. Yeah, true. Anyway. So he brought it to us in a Sazerac rye bottle, which, of course, we like the Sazerac rod. And my impression is initially they were going to try and make elderberry wine, but they didn't like the taste of it so much that they're going to make it in vinegar. And I like anyone that's trying to make a vinegar. we're going to give it a taste test here on here. Hold a sec, hold a sec. It's good. It's good, right? Nastasia, what you don't like drinking vinegar, Nastasia. I think this would make a good soda if it was sweetened. The acidity level of it is not quite up to a normal high-proof vinegar yet, but I think if you were to add a little bit of sugar to this and then
+
+[27:01] carbonate, it would be a great soda. And we've actually done vinegar sodas before, like one of my favorite things that I've ever worked on was we did a vinegar soda that we poured over fig ice cream.
+
+[27:12] That was some delicious business, right? That is some good stuff. Anyway, so like this maybe we could use for something like that. anyway. So, I have a question here. Maybe I'll handle that one after the after the commercial break. Matthew Hecch writes in and says, it's Matt from Uptown who took the class, our
+
+[27:33] sous vide intensive class. Howdy, Matt. And he got a great deal on a polyscience model 71 immersion circulator on eBay. And it works great, but he has a few questions. Now, I didn't have time to look up which one was the Model 71, but I think I have an idea from what
+
+[27:46] you are, you know, asked me the questions on which one it is. So we'll deal with it. And for those of you out there who don't know what immersion circulator is, there's probably not that many ones of our list. People listen to us who don't know what emergency circular is, but I hope there is. And here's what it is. It's a piece of equipment that very, very accurately controls water or liquid
+
+[28:03] temperatures, and it's kind of the piece of equipment that you need to do. Low temperature cooking. And low temperature cooking is the kind of kind of the revolutionary new cooking technique where, you know, instead of cooking a steak to, you know, in a 400 degree oven, even though you only want to cook it to 130 degrees, you just cook it to 130 degrees and then sear it before and after.
+
+[28:21] Okay? So that's what we're talking about. you know, they used to be like $2000 They then went down to about a 1000 and now you can buy them in William Sonoma for about 800. So I believe the Model 71 is an old school analog one that doesn't have a digital readout.
+
+[28:36] And I've talked to Philip Preston, the manufacturer of the polycine circulators for a, you know, for a long time about these older ones. And they work great, right? The problem is, is that you need to calibrate them because there's no digital readout
+
+[28:51] that, you know, tells you what temperature it's at. You have to put a thermocouple into your bath and then just turn the dial, and then you just wait to see where it
+
+[29:00] stabilizes, and you're going to see the light, the heating light, flash off and on, and it's going to get stable, and it will stay stable. It's not going to go all over the place. They're nice and stable, but you do need an external digital thermometer to determine exactly what temperature you're
+
+[29:13] at. And that's really the disadvantage of an analog, an analog circulator. The other question was, there's a thermostat on the back, and Matthew wants to know what it's for. Now, what that is, is that's usually the over temp thermostat. So if like a knucklehead cook in your place, pulls the circulator out of water, and then runs it out of water. There's a little safety override such that it doesn't melt the whole machine down and catch your building on fire. And that little safety thermostat in the back determines at what temperature it decides to click and turn off. I would just turn it up to 200, which is 2 or like 150, anything well above the boiling point of water, just so it's not clicking off on you all the
+
+[29:50] time, because if it does click off, you have to press a little reset button to get it to work again. So that said, as long as that thing keeps working, it should keep working forever. Those older units, not forever, but she'll keep working well and accurately, those older units have a different style of bearing on them, so you might start hearing bearing squeal after, you know, a couple months or a year, in which case, you know, you can
+
+[30:12] WD 50, uh, 50. WD 40 it for uh, yeah. slip a tongue. You can WD 40 it for a little while, but eventually then your motor's going to go, which point I don't know whether it would make sense to replace it, but you know, if you get a good deal, they work great. And by the way, a note on the new circulators that are coming out, if you have one of the new circulators from Philip,
+
+[30:32] polycience, the ones that they have in William Sonoma, which I, you know, I like, that's what I use at home
+
+[30:37] now, is the new one. Well, if you're working in New York City, the 1st thing you should do is pop the little plate off the front that
+
+[30:42] says sous vide professional and just sand the word sous vide off of it so that if you have it in your kitchen in New York City and the health inspector walks in, they're not like, you're doing sous vide without a
+
+[30:51] asset plan. So that's, that's the 1st, even though I have it at home, the 1st thing I did was pop the plate off and
+
+[30:55] sand the word sous vide off of it. But the 2nd thing is, you should be very careful that none of your cooks go into the calibration mode in
+
+[31:05] it and change the temperature. So if you, you know, you just press a button and you, and you can like change it between Fahrenheit and Celsius, which is awesome. I love that, but if you press that button again, you're changing the offset, which is basically a calibration feature. But if you're not careful, right, you can basically throw it out of
+
+[31:24] calibration by like 3 degrees. So it's something you should be aware of, is to make sure your cooks aren't changing the calibration without knowing it. I had to cook do that, and, you know, all the eggs were off by 3 degrees. So instead of being a perfect poached egg, we had raw eggs. You know what I mean? Because the difference between a 62 degree Celsius egg, which is perfect for eggs
+
+[31:43] Benedict and a 59 degree egg, which is almost raw, is like, you know, huge, huge. Anyway, so be careful your cooks aren't changing the offset. I think in future versions, Philip's going to make it so that it's a lot harder to change the offset.
+
+[31:58] But that said, we love the new circulator. So we're going to go to our 2nd commercial break, call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. And thanks, look at you. Someone got a groove like this. You know? No. No. I need the grip. Got the grip.
+
+[32:30] job. Yeah, job, job. Need to get down. You know, I'm a green, eh, at red time. Brother! I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down in order for me to get down. I got to get in deep. And order for me to get down, I gotta get in deep. Need to get in D. Dog the D. Down, D. Bunky D. St, D, Down, D.
+
+[33:23] Get on down. Morgan, lamp, you like this. I make him think about making a big game. Look here. Look at that. You over there? We better fang one west, please. What we gotta do? Gotta have a pump, good time. Welcome back to cooking issues, a show where we answer all of your cooking issues. At least we try to. Call in your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718 still got vinegar in my mouth. 718-497-2128. coming to you live for the next 15 minutes or so. Okay, so we have a question from Max. Uh, and uh, part of it. I'm just going to read straight just because I can't I can't possibly paraphrase, but he recently found a manufacturer of Xanthangum where he can purchase like a food grade Xanthangum. He calls it blow, which is hilarious. Although, if you were, like, I'll read it exactly. He says, I recently found a manufacturer's anthane near me to purchase food and pharmacy grade blow. Now, assuming you're referring to the Xanthangum as blow and not as cocaine, don't ever snort Xanthangum. That stuff's going to seriously slime up in your nasal passages and you're going to be in for a world of hurt. Am I right about this? World of hurt. I mean, I have, look, I'm not going to say I haven't as a joke packed hydrocollids in my nose before, but I would not do that with Xanthan. I definitely would not do it. Anyway, so we ordered a couple of kilos, which is basically a lifetime supply. because he ordered it directly from the fermenter. That's pretty cool. If you have it, send me the send me the link. I'd love to be able to buy a couple kilos of Xanthang gum at a good price. I think every chef would. What do you think, Nick? Yes. Yes, goes for yes. And he's using it for baking and subbing it out for Agars, a thickener and some sauces. Now, before I go any further, Xanthan, I don't really think is a good straight substitute for Agar. So if you're using Agar as a thickener, what you're most likely doing is setting your sauce into a gel with Agar and then blending it into a fluid
+
+[35:21] gel, and the problem with using Xanthan to get that thick a texture is that it's going to get really snotty on you.
+
+[35:28] Like I much prefer to use Xanthan as either as a stabilizer, like you said, in a baked good or something like that.
+
+[35:34] Or just to get that last little bit of body out, right? So the sauce is almost where it wants to be, but it just needs a little more
+
+[35:42] body, and that's when I, basically, I pull out the Xanthan. So I'm usually using it in like the one quarter of a percent up to the maybe
+
+[35:49] like, like 3rd of a percent, 4 tenths of a percent range in that range. I think once you get much higher than that, you really kind of notice the snottiness of the sauce, like unless it's going to stand still and no one's going to ever see a jiggle. Um, I tend to watch out. So like a lot of times I'll use Xan in conjunction with another product just to help stabilize a little bit. But I very rarely use it as the only thickener in a system,
+
+[36:15] unless, like, you know, you say, it's just a stabilized air bubbles for like a baking presentation or something like that. Okay, so uh, Max's issue came when he tried to thicken smoked oil. He used 2 grams per 100 gram of oil and sheared, this is a live quote, by the way, so this is not me saying it. I'm going to use this from now. he calls an immersion blender, the stick blender. He calls it, I think I can say this on air. He calls it a dildo stick, which I think I'm going to start using from now on, at which point the color became a cool fluorescent red due to the extra air and powder, but after
+
+[36:43] he let it sit, it just settled to the bottom of the container, then he tried it a bunch of different ways. And, and he says, can, uh, can he thicken the oil on its own with the cantankerous
+
+[36:54] xanthan gum? Or is it a purely case of sugars, like water, not mixing with oil? Yes, it's purely a case of the, what's it complex sugar. It's a, you know, long, long chain polysaccharide, Xanthangum, but yes, Xanthangum will not interact with oil. You can't thicken oil with Xanthangum. So, here are your options for thickening oil. A lot of people, when they thick, thicken oil. They use an emulsifier called monoindiglycerides. Mono and diglycerides. is sold, unfortunately, by some people as glycerin, even though it's not glycerin. It's mono and dilycerides. It's the stuff that's sold as glice by the Faran texturas line. It comes in little flakes, and you heat it into the oil, and if you add enough of it, you can thicken it. Uh, and the problem is, is that uh, it's a, you know, it's, it really melts out when you get it hot. So it's really only useful to thicken like cold preps. But the problem is also, I think that in when you, to get a really, really thick, like spreadable oil, you need to like get it up in the range of like 10% monodiglycerides, at which
+
+[37:59] point I think you can taste the monoondiglycerides. I think it's nasty. Like maybe if you had a higher quality monod glycerides than I have, it would work, but I think it's nasty. Another thing you can do is use a little bit of monodyglycerides and then emulsify in some
+
+[38:11] water, and that's going to thicken it just by having all the watery crud in it, right? That'll thicken it. And of course, the best way to thicken oil is to do it the opposite way and make mayonnaise. Mayonnaise with smoked dough would be delicious. Delicious Mayonnaise, everyone here agree that mayonnaise with smoked oil is delicious product. Yes. Yeah, Nastasia doesn't seem convinced, but or I think she's just not listening. Anyway. But the, anyway, so, oh, we have a caller? Caller, you are on the air. Here it is. Hey, it's coming again, actually. I just found a landline and I had a 2nd question. Although I like the auto tuner effect. was nice. Yeah, it was definitely sick, but I'm glad to hear your beautiful voice on the other side. But, uh, yeah, so this one pertains to things
+
+[38:54] with like very astringent flavors. So, in particular, I made a walnut liquor, and there's some, I don't know. still pretty young, but it has some very pungent kind of astringentness at the end. The thing that makes your tongue just sort of feel like there's fuzz growing all over it. Right. And so I heard recently from some friends who
+
+[39:17] are sort of like wild forager types that persimmons, American persimmons are also, the skins of them are extremely
+
+[39:24] astringent until the 1st frost or 2, And that seems to kill it and then makes them a little sweeter. So I was wondering if, uh, you know much about, you know, like, uh, I
+
+[39:37] guess breaking down astringent flavors and if I could maybe just put this stuff in the freezer and expect
+
+[39:42] that, they would drop out or break down. It's an extremely interesting question. Uh, and, um, here's the here's the thing. So the, uh, I've always wanted to try our native persimmons. I never have. read about them for years. I haven't had them. But fruits that are astringent, right? So Quince, persimmons, if you freeze them and then thaw them out, you can lose some of the astringency, presumably because during the freezing, which is a dehydration process, the kind of astringent, whatever it is, tannic astringent
+
+[40:13] stuff, basically bonds together with other stuff and loses its astringent properties. That's got to be what it is because also if you take a persimmon and dry it, as we all know, it loses its astringency,
+
+[40:21] right? And apples that are like overly tannic apples that are very astringent back in the day,
+
+[40:28] because, you know, when you sow apple seeds, like a lot of them come up tannic and astringent because
+
+[40:32] they're just, you know, apples don't come true to seed. So a lot of these seedling apple orchards, which were used for cider production, especially in like Pennsylvania Dutch
+
+[40:41] Company, they dry out a lot of it and they'd make schnitz, which is the dried apple slices, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those lose their astringency because they're dried. And so now all of a sudden you can make a pie or something out of the dried apples or make or make, you know, schnitz and
+
+[40:53] Genep, whatever you call the ham and schnitz thing because the astringency has been modified by the dehydration process.
+
+[41:00] And you should always make a freezing as a as a dehydration process. Now, in the liquor, I don't know that it's going to work, the astringency, I assume, from the walnut is coming from the skins of the walnut, I'm assuming.
+
+[41:14] Now, you could try freezing it, and if you get a good result, I would love to know that whether or not that does anything. It's going to be hard to freeze unless it's a very low-proof liquor. It's going to be hard to freeze anyway, but you if it works, that would be amazing to know, but there's another alternative, which is there are, and I don't know the variety, but Harold McGee wants, you know, you go to Harold McGee's
+
+[41:34] house and he just has a bowl of walnuts on the table. So you're like, hey, Vistach, remember this? like, hey, these are just walnuts, right? So you start eating, you're like, god damn, this is amazing walnuts. What the hell? And apparently there's like in California, a couple strains of walnut that are extremely, the skins are extremely low
+
+[41:49] in tannins. And I think they were the red ones, right, Nastasia? Are they the red ones? Yeah, they're amazing. So you might be able to try one of these super fancy walnuts. Um, or if you, another thing you can do is maybe crack the walnuts and try to do the liquor with ISI and maybe you could get or like, you know, like smash the walls, do
+
+[42:08] ISI and maybe you could get enough of the walnut flavor out without getting a lot of the tannin, although I did it with pecans. And I got quite a bit of tannin in my pecan infusion, even in an ISI, which usually doesn't extract bitters and tannins that quickly.
+
+[42:22] But you could give that a shot. Also, you know, it's a real pain to skin a walnut, but you could try heating it, rubbing it to at least get a portion of the skin off of it. Uh, you know, to try and see whether that can, um, whether that helps. I don't know, um, I don't know whether or not we can modify the one that already, if you have liquid nitrogen, you could try freezing it.
+
+[42:42] That'll dehydrate it and then let it thaw slowly and maybe you can get some of these stringency out, but I don't know that it's the same chemical process that I don't know that it would
+
+[42:48] that would work. Yeah, yeah, so it's the actual, you know, going to a semi-solid that's going to be... Well, in in fruits, but I don't know whether or not it's this, they're the same molecules in like a nutskin. I don't know if it's going to have the same stuff. Yeah, so like it's not just a matter of temperature, basically. Not, no, not simply a matter of temperature, but it's a very interesting question. I think one that has an asset. I'm interested. So if you find some results, if you could email in, tell us what happened. Yeah, will do. All right. thanks very much Yeah have a good one. All right. And then we have another question in, and I forget who wrote it
+
+[43:22] because Chris, Chris writes in and asks whether he can use clarification on canned pineapple and bottled or, you know, cartoned orange
+
+[43:31] juice, and specifically you want to know about Agar clarification, right? Is that true? Yeah. Yes, it'll work. I haven't done, I mean, can pineapple juice. I think it will work. I think we've done it. I know I've done orange juice. Or in fact, the 1st application I ever did with Quick Agar clarification was with orange juice because it was 3 AM in the morning. I didn't have time to squeeze anything fresh. So I used orange juice. Orange juice, as long as it's not very acidic, can also be clarified directly through enzymatic, uh, if you hit it
+
+[44:00] with, uh, Pectinex smash, uh, XXL or Pectinex, uh, SPL. You can directly clarify without using Agar. But yes, you can Agar clarify. I would assume you can do pineapple juice. Pineapple juice, of course, has prolytic enzymes in it that would make it difficult to clarify using gelatin, but cooked pineapple juice has been
+
+[44:22] cooked. presumably you can clarify it without any sort of problems. I don't see any reason why you could not clarify pineapple juice. Okay. Back to Max with his question with Xanthan Gum and oil. He also asks, when am I going to finally admit that I am working for that? And here it is. SSS, SSV, the sofa's, Stofer's Secret Society of Sous vide. He said, we all know that sous vide, just like the internet and cable TV, are just fads that will be gone in a year, the way Corey Feldman's music career
+
+[44:56] was. I agree. This stuff's not going to last, right? None of us here, none of us here think that sous Viv's here to last, right? That's hilarious. You know, and presumably, you know, obviously he's, you know, making fun because it's going to be here forever, but it's one of those funny
+
+[45:09] things, uh, you know, people always say, oh, well, you know, all this new kind of technology is, you know, it's
+
+[45:16] going to be a fad. going to go away, you know, 1st of all, they label you as molecular gastronomy and they're like, that was so like 5 years ago. like, well, 1st of all, we all hate the term like astronomy. And secondly, like this kind of cooking is really growing and growing and growing. You might not hear about it, maybe as much as you used to, uh, in the newspapers and magazines because people already know about it. So there's no hooks to write stories on. You know what I mean? But yeah, so thanks for running in, Max, more of questions like this. We love them. And I'm going to leave you this one. I'm trying to write a review of the greatest pomological reference ever to have been produced by human beings called
+
+[45:49] The Fruits of New York. It's like 8 volumes. It's many, many, many, many 1000s of pages. It's all public access. You know, read it soon on the blog as soon as I can, which maybe is never for, you know, given my current track
+
+[46:01] record because I've been posting so slowly. But anyway, they wrote a one also called The Vegetables in New York, one of which is on Ps, right? So I had to read like, I don't know, 200 pages on Ps. you know, as part of this review process. And here's what I learned. Also, if you don't know me, you won't know this, but I'm fascinated with mummies. I think, you know, mummies, right? Would you say that's true, mummies? Mummies? Yeah, mummies. So, uh, So, there's a huge fad about anything, uh, Egypt related around the time of, uh, in the, in the mid to late 1800s and also around the time of the discovery of
+
+[46:38] Tuten Commons tomb in the, in the early 20s by uh, Carter, right? So there's this huge thing about mummies all the time. And they found seeds in these in these crypts, right? In the tombs, they would find seeds. And so there were these disreputable producers who would say that they had germinated seeds from these ancient
+
+[46:58] tombs and then they would sell them. And so there is literally a variety of P called Mummy, right? And by the way, you could actually buy mummy powder, because people used to grind up mummies and as a medicine, like they would just grind up mummies. And it's based on an old, it's based on basically an old mistranslation of some old Arabic medical writings, but they would, yeah,
+
+[47:17] they would grind up like they, there's a huge trade. Like they would just ship like, you know, tons of mummies over to Western Europe, grind them
+
+[47:24] up, and you'd buy this dust, this mummy dust, and you would add it to things, and people would think that mummy does solve all kinds of problems. So there's all these Europeans eating mummy dust. There was a paint called mummy that was ground up. You grind up mummies and apparently like it was the best brown paint and you couldn't get anything that looked quite like
+
+[47:41] mummy. So, like, all these artists would have this mummy paint and you can go to museums and see paintings that were painted with
+
+[47:47] mummies, as well as the mummies themselves, presumably, if you're going to the museum. But, uh, these guys, all this variety of P is mummy, and they were saying that, you know, these were the actual Egyptian piece. So these guys in New York's Geneva extension station up in New York were growing and we're basically like, hey, look, these things are exactly like these other
+
+[48:03] piece. So basically it's a huge hoax. Turns out peas can't survive for 1000s of years. But, uh, you know, an interesting look back, uh, to early 20th century hoaxes and the mummy pee. This has been cooking issues. Come back, visit us next week.
+
+[48:24] Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Cooking Issues. We want to remind you that there's a Cabot giveaway going on right now. The New England and New York Farm families who own Cabot Cooperative are offering our listeners a chance to win some of the world's best cheddar simply by calling in 718-497-2128. We're emailing us at info at heritageradionetwork.com. What a great way to start the holidays. We'll be picking a winner for the program 2 weeks from today. Cabot Creamery is a proud supporter of what Heritage Radio is all about. Fishes, fish, and vodka.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you. Welcome to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of Cookie Issues. We are here with Nastasia the Lopez Hammer. No, Stasio the Hammer Lopez. that's the 1st time I've ever messed that up. Coming to you live every Tuesday from noon to 1245. This is the Thanksgiving version of the show. Call in with all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And now to break with tradition. Nastasia is going to read our sponsors, copy. Go ahead. Because she says I'm a jerk. That why I'm having her do it because she says that I'm when I read it, I'm dismissive and a jerk. So go, go. So today's today's show is brought to you by Cabot Cheese. For your favorite party recipes, let the great taste of cabbot cheese make them even more special. Award-winning Cabot cheese. 100% of our profits go to New England and New York Farm families on the web at cabotcheese.com. Nice. Thank you. Nice. All right. So while we're waiting for uh we're waiting for our 1st caller, I will uh starting with some of our email questions. Here's one from who wrote this? can't tell. Here's one. I hoping Dave could offer some insight for a novice candy maker. This is Steve from Miami. Uh, he's trying to make a pumpkin maple caramel from a uh, from food 52.com, and uh, he wants to add bourbon to it. Um, but he's worried that that it's going to affect the texture of the caramel. He needs to know whether they, whether enough of the bourbon is going to evaporate out by the time the caramel reaches 240 Fahrenheit on the thermometer.
+
+[1:45] Okay. He's also curious, can he smoke the caramel as it's cooling down with
+
+[1:49] policy and smoking gum, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. So here's my, here's the good news on this. The, the, I read the, I read the recipe, and the recipe is fairly standard for caramel, except for it cooks it to a slightly lower temperature, but it has a lot of pumpkin puree in
+
+[2:05] it. So I'm thinking that the pumpkin puree is maybe the reason why it's cooked to a slightly lower temperature than normal caramel.
+
+[2:11] Normal caramels will be cooked a little bit over 240 Fahrenheit, somewhere. I can't remember. I've been a long time so I cooked a caramel, but probably more in the range of like 248 Fahrenheit, something like that. But the good news is, is that if you cook it, to the same temperature, you're gonna have the same water content. So when you're cooking a candy out, right? All you're basically doing is ensuring that you have the exact amount of water removed from the system that you want. So once you, assuming that all the solids are the same, right? The pumpkin puree, et cetera, et cetera, assuming all the solids are the
+
+[2:45] same and that, you know, 99% of the alcohol will have evaporated out once you reach those high, high
+
+[2:51] temperatures, the good news is that you will have the same water content in your
+
+[2:56] candy, and so your texture will be the same. So my feeling is, is that is that if you cook to the same temperatures, the addition of the bourbon's not going to make that much difference. That's why the amount of water added to a candy cook at the beginning is really not that important. Um, you know, plus your mind is a little bit because you're,
+
+[3:13] that it's the temperature that guarantees, um, that your, that your candy is going to have the right, the right texture. And that's the great thing about cooking candies, right, Nastasia? Yeah. And actually, we've been doing a lot of candy cooking recently. You can go to our blog. We posted our 1st video, uh, what was that, our video blog post
+
+[3:31] on uh, making Dragon's Beard candy, which is a hand pulled cotton candy. Maybe we'll talk about that a little later, a little later on in the program. As to the 2nd part about whether or not you can smoke it with a smoking gun. I'm sure that you can. I have never done it. The smoking gun made by polyscience. It's kind of a beefed up version of a, uh, so here's a history that. So basically they used to sell little vacuum cleaners for like vacuuming out your keyboards. I had one because I was a huge geek, huge dork, right? And they're fun. You had one too? The little things that clean out the keyboard? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, nice, nice. All right. So anyway, so I didn't know you were that much of a geek. I love that. It's good to know about Nastasia. Anyway, so those little vacuum cleaners. And then at some point, some enterprising pothead was like, hey, if I put the battery in upside down and put pot in the top of it and light it on fire, I don't even have to suck on the pipe to get the smoke out,
+
+[4:27] right? So Hence was born this new thing, basically this kind of automatic pot pipe, right? So then, uh, at some point in the late 90s, some chefs in Europe, I think, you know, the 1st person I saw was uh, one
+
+[4:42] Roka that demonstrated Madrid Fusion in, uh, I think uh, 0, oh, I don't know, 05 or something like that, 04. And, uh, basically, Shastan started uh, using it to inject smoke into things. Um, and, you know, one of the famous, some of the famous presentations were one Rocca, uh, took a close, you know, the little, the glass, like, like pheasant under glass, old
+
+[5:04] school kind of close, and then, not close, means bell. and then injected smoke into it. I, like, plated the dish on the, on the plate part of the clothes, and then injected smoke into the bell part, and then brought it over to the diner, lifted the top, and then the smoke would billow out. It would perfume the area, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They had another famous dish where they had like a basically a slipper shaped glass bowl that they then like sealed a piece of plastic over the top, made a pinprick hole in
+
+[5:30] it, and then injected smoke into it. And then every time your spoon, they plated it on top of the plastic. Every time your spoon hit, it would throw a smoke ring up. These are some of the famous dishes that are made with it. Anyway, Philip Preston, our good buddy from polyscience who makes the circulators, the only circulator we use. Uh, immersion circulator, you know, wishy should, if you don't know what it is, just check out a version circulator on the web, they're fantastic. Anyway, so he makes a kind of a beefed up version of this, you know, pot
+
+[5:53] pipe gone food that's used to inject smoking. I have one. I don't really use it that often. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not that much of a wealth of knowledge on on that, but it should work. This is a very long way of saying it should work. However, you might be better off, if you want a traditional smoked flavor, not just a little hint of smoke, actually smoking it in a cold smoker. So a lot of people have, and you look it up, modified smokers to be able to produce a cold smoke, mainly by removing the smoke source from, you know, away from
+
+[6:24] this chamber and then running the smoke through a pipe that they pack ice or cold water on or run water over.
+
+[6:31] But yes, that should work. And the 2nd point, there's actually 2 questions. There's one about the caramels. And then any good sous vide, sweet potato ideas. Yes, again, we have some, we've done some work with sous vide and sweet potatoes. Those of you that, I don't know, brand new listeners don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Sous vide is any sort of cooking in a vacuum bag. And in particular, sous vide is useful. Um, a useful way to do low temperature cooking, low temperatures where we um, control the temperature where we cook very, very accurately and it lets us do some interesting special effects. And one of them happens to be with sweet potatoes. Okay? So, sweet potatoes contain an enzyme, beta amylase, a lot of things contain, that, you know, it's the same beta
+
+[7:13] amylase, similar beta amylase to what's used in brewers to convert starch to sugar. And so what happens is, is if you keep sweet potatoes at a very accurate temperature, let's say, uh, 60 to
+
+[7:25] 65, uh, Celsius, 60 Celsius, probably better, uh, no, 50, 55. What do you think, Stas? I have to go look it up. Let's say 55. I don't want to, um, I don't want to kill the enzyme and I don't want to, uh, you know, have the, you know what? strike what I just said. This is like not necessarily safe, but cut the sweet potato into pieces, vac it on high to get rid of the air, put it
+
+[7:49] in the, you know, in a bag, maybe with a little oil or not. This is not safe. 40 Do it at 40 Celsius, right? 40 to 45 Celsius. only for like two, 2.5 hours, and then ramped a temperature to kill anything that you've grown during that
+
+[8:05] time because you're still within the safety limit, right? So, uh, what that'll do is that will, um, cause the beta
+
+[8:13] emilates to start breaking the starch down on the inside of that sweet potato and make it even
+
+[8:18] sweeter, okay? Then, uh, there's, it's interesting. I haven't really run the studies. We've done it to try and make the sweet potato sweeter before, but there's certain enzymes that you actually need to activate at a higher temperature that will eventually destroy the enzyme, but in order to actually liberate the enzyme in a way that
+
+[8:33] can touch the cellular tissues. You need to get to a high enough temperature to have that happen. The one I'm thinking of is pectin methylesterase, the potato strengthening and the, well, any cell wall strengthening enzyme, typically you need to circulate in the area of 60 to 65
+
+[8:45] Celsius to get that to work. But we've had good results with sweet potatoes in the 40 to 45 range. Then you ramp the temperature up to almost simmering to cook the potatoes through, and the advantage is cooking them in a bag is that you can
+
+[9:00] get, there's no flavor loss, and there's no flavor addition in or out. So you have like, you know, nice looking potatoes. They're not kind of roasted, but they have the, in common with a roasted potato, the fact
+
+[9:11] that, uh, it has been watered down by cooking it in a, um, by cooking it in a liquid. And also, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't look shriveled or anything. So it's very good. Sweet potatoes are excellent in the bag. We do it all the time, and you can ramp up the sweetness by doing a pre-treatment in the bag. And then, by the way, when you're at 40, I would then slowly ramp
+
+[9:32] the like 45 Celsius, I would slowly ramp the temperature up to the, you know, the simmering point to get it to cook. But it's going to take a long time to cook in the bag a lot longer than it would normally take to cook in a pot, more like it would take when if you were going to roast
+
+[9:45] it because it takes a long time to break to actually break down the structure of the sweet potato in the absence of a lot of excess water, right? So it's going to take more, um, more like the time it would take to roast than the time it would take
+
+[9:58] to, um, than the time it would take to uh, boil. And I would definitely, you know, cut them into smaller pieces. Is this making any bank sense at all? Yes, Dave, yeah. And it's good. It's apropos of Thanksgiving. This is the Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving episode of cooking issues. All right. So, Steve, I hope I answered that question. Okay. Now, uh, I have a question from Teddy DeVico, uh, and uh, teen chef teddy.blogspot.com. And he says, uh, I recently had an awesome meal at
+
+[10:27] WD 50, WD 50 is my brother-in-law's restaurant in uh, in downtown New York, actually 2 blocks from my house. And, uh, you know, I love I love Wiley. I love his cooking. Uh, and, uh, Teddy says, Wiley uses translutaminace a lot in his food, shrimp noodles, cold fried chicken,
+
+[10:44] etc. Is it possible to glue skins to skin to proteins? For example, could you take the skin off the back of a chicken and then wrap it around the
+
+[10:51] breast so that the chicken skin would be wrapped around the whole breast? Oh, yes. Oh yes, Teddy, that's more than possible. That is like what we do basically every day. You know, not every day, but whenever we cook with meat, we're often doing stuff like that. So for those of you that don't know, transgutaminaces and enzyme that glues different proteins together. It can glue any protein together. It's fantastic. It's all natural. It's a miracle. I love it. Anyway, you sprinkle it on like it's powdered sugar. You put the 2 pieces of meat together that you want to glue together, you let it sit 4 hours, done. Done. beautiful. And seriously, it's fantastic stuff. Uh, but we don't just glue uh, chicken skins to chickens. We glue chicken skins to steaks, right? So we make like a chicken fried steak. You like that, right, Stuff? Yeah, it's good stuff. Uh, the, uh, and so with that, like we take a skirt steak and we glue chicken, uh, skin to it. Let's sit 4 hours, then we can fry it, and it has the skin of a chicken, which is like one of God's great creations, chicken skin, right?
+
+[11:45] You know, chicken skin delicious. And but, you know, the inside of skirt steak, which is also delicious.
+
+[11:51] So yeah, so you can use it for a lot of stuff. You can actually buy it. It's not cheap. It's like $80 for a kilo, but if you store it in the freezer. It, you know, they say 6 months, but really, I've used it longer than a year. And that'll glue a lot, a lot of meat together. When you buy your translutaminates. And by the way, the company is a Genomoto that sells it, and the brand name is Activa, and you're going to want to get Activa RM from Agenomoto, you can buy it directly from Agenomoto at Aji
+
+[12:22] Foods, USA, or I think I think La Sanctuera might sell it, and I think Terrace Spice might sell it as well online. And you get it. Store it in your freezer and then make sure that it always goes back to the freezer. That's how you, you know, are going to keep it okay. You want to do all your gluing in 20 minutes. And if you need to test it, put it on a piece of raw meat, and it should smell a little bit like a wet dog or a wet wool sweater, and that smell will go away. I've never been able to detect that when I'm when I'm eating it. It's just showing you that the reaction's happening. It's a good way to test test out your meat glue. For more information on transgutaminates, please go to our blog, cookingissues.com, click on the primers link at the top and go
+
+[13:01] to, what is it called, Stazi? is called Translutaminates or Miklu. It's called transglutaminates, and... in parentheses, meat glue. Oh, nice. All right, so double action. So anyway, so go to see the primer section and we have a lot, including like, you know, my, I'm not going to say exhaustive. I say exhausting. It exhausted me anyway. Research on safety of transgotaminates and whatnot. So, uh, go check that out. take a break. Take a break. Go to our 1st commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128 cooking issues. So much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, Bella? Hey, jam. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time, take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[14:17] All right. I'll do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Gotta take it high.
+
+[14:27] Brother, yeah? Now I want everybody, let red blow my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn. Welcome back to Cooking Issues, coming to you live, calling your questions
+
+[14:45] to 718-497-2128.
+
+[14:49] That's 718-497-2128. We got an interesting email in from Steve, who basically just sent us some information, not really the question, but I thought it would be interesting. It's I'm interested in microwaves. So you're interested in microwave stars? Not really. Not really. I am. Well, you know, I'm interested in almost everything. But, you know, back when I was a kid, I used the microwave mainly to melt butter and to blow up light bulbs, you know, because that's those are the 2 things, like blow up eggs, blow up light bulbs, melt chocolate,
+
+[15:21] melt butter. But, you know, thanks to the internet, there's a whole bunch of people out there doing very, very interesting things with microwaves. And Steve points out that if you, if you search, um, neon lamp, I think is neon lamp. Yeah, neon lamp microwave. There's these guys in Holland who have, I think, Holland, who have a series of videos on how to visualize the patterns of energy in a
+
+[15:42] microwave by basically using a piece of foam core that they stuck a bunch of tiny neon lamps in.
+
+[15:47] And then you put it in the in the oven, and it's like a grid, and you can see the pattern of light that's
+
+[15:54] formed, and the pattern of light, the intensity of the light is basically showing you the intensity of the of the wave in that of the magnetic of the
+
+[16:01] uh, electromagnetic waves, the microwaves in that in that area. And then they have a couple videos where they show, like they put some water in, and they can see how the, um, how the,
+
+[16:11] the placing a load, the water is basically a load absorbing the microwaves, uh, how the, uh, the radiation is being distributed in the rest of the, of the
+
+[16:19] microwave. It's really quite interesting. They show some in the, in the, you know, they have the thing in the top. They have it in the bottom, they have it in the middle. They have it spinning, and better than any other technique I've seen, including the putting the flour in and burning it and things like that, really shows in real
+
+[16:34] time what the pattern of energy is. Because, you know, one of the big downfalls of the microwave is the unevenness of the energy absorption in it. And the fact that if you put something in, it changes the, it changes the cooking characteristics of the entire oven cavity. That's basically the big drawback of microwave. Uh, you know, that, and for instance, like, you know, you have some weird phenomenon. Like if something starts to char in a microwave or if there's things on it that are charred already, they
+
+[16:59] preferentially be preferentially absorbed microwave energy, the carbonized areas
+
+[17:04] do and then get even hotter and then catch on fire, things like that. I mean, there are some fun things about microwaves. But anyway, so it's a very interesting experiment and it's made
+
+[17:13] me for the next time we do the Harold McGee class. It's made me think that, you know, dang, I'm going to do this, but I'm going to go crazy with it. I want to don't do this. Don't, like, don't, don't ever do this. But the reason, the reason, the whole size,
+
+[17:28] there's a mesh, right, in the front of your microwave, uh, and that you can kind of see through, right? And the reason it's not bigger than that is, is that that mesh is designed, such that the microwave,
+
+[17:40] which has a, you know, a wavelength much larger than that hole can't propagate at all through that mesh, right? Really, you know, they can make it a little bit bigger, but they want it to be 100% safe. So even so if you put your eyeball against the door of the microwave, which, you know,
+
+[17:57] my, you know, my mom always told me not to do, it's not going to fry out, fry out your eye. But if you stayed back on it a little bit, you could have a bigger hole, like pencil size, right? So don't ever do this, but I'm thinking like you could put like a slightly bigger hole and I could put an armature in that I could actually manipulate the load on the inside, have like a series of lamps on the
+
+[18:15] inside, and then manipulate a load so you can really see by moving the load around in real
+
+[18:20] time what was happening. What do you think's actually shaking? your head? Well, I mean, I can do it. I don't want anyone else to do it, but I'm not gonna fry myself. Yeah. I mean, look, don't ever experiment with microwave vones. Seriously don't. But like, I will. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But I don't recommend you do it. But for the next time we do the McGee class, I mean, all of a sudden, like seeing this, seeing
+
+[18:40] this post, which, by the way, only have like 13 views, it's crazy. Yeah, you should go look at them. They're really cool. It's like some of the best visualization of microwaves I've seen. Did you ever talk about your dangerous centrifuge thing? Which dangerous centerfuge? When you put the glass on top and ran it? No, no, we haven't posted that yet. I'll talk about that one sec. I got a little more on microwave. So Steve did a really interesting thing when he was an undergrad in physics undergrad. His professor asked him if, asked the whole class, I guess, could you measure any fundamental constants, physical constants in your kitchen? And so he came up with a fun way to measure the speed of light. So microwaves have a known frequency, right? Your microwave oven operates at a known frequency. It's, I forget what it is. something like 2.4 gigahertz or something like that, you know, you know, in that area, you know, 2.4 gigahertz, I think, memory. This is my memory, doing from memory. So what he did was, he stuck a bar of chocolate, a big, like a slab, a sheet, like a bar of chocolate into the
+
+[19:39] microwave and then turned it on, on high, right? So you, like, I think it was on high, because you need to establish a standing wave. has to be a standing wave pattern, and then looked to see exactly when the surface started to melt a little bit on the
+
+[19:54] bar, pulled it out and measured the distance between the 2 points of melting in the grid. There's like a grid where it's melted. And then, uh, using that to calculate um, the high power regions, right? So that's each high power region is going to be half of a wavelength, multiplied by two. And then you have the, you know, you can calculate if you know how many cycles per
+
+[20:17] 2nd it is, and you know how long the wavelength is, right? Then you can calculate the speed of light. So he was able to calculate the speed of light, and he got within 3% of the correct answer using a regular household ruler, a
+
+[20:29] microwave, and a bar of chocolate. Wow. That's another cool microwave trick, huh? is cool. That's a cool trick, Steve. I like that. That's good thinking. And plus, I'm sure you made some sort of delicious brownie with the chocolate when you were done. At least that's what I would do. That's what I seriously, that's all I used to use the microwave for besides blowing up light bulbs and eggs was melting chocolate for brownies.
+
+[20:48] But, um, so anyway, so Nastasia said, have I talked about my dangerous centrifuge practice?
+
+[20:53] We are into dangerous things. So it's like, I'm not into dangerous. No, but, you know, and you say you do it alone, but it's like, hey, I'm going to run the centrifuge open, stand behind me and film it. But it's not open. listen, we run or we'll be in like the national fruit collection and you'll say, if my throat closes up, the EpiPens here, just stab it into me.
+
+[21:11] I don't want to give people the wrong impression. I'm pro safety here. Like, seriously, pro safety. But sometimes I will do things that some people might consider
+
+[21:21] unsafe, but I feel like I have a handle on. So centrifuges, right? You're not supposed to run them open ever because it's not. come on, it's a bad idea. Like, you know, a lot of force involved. If the, if the, a lot of centrifuge parts are made of aluminum aluminum tends to fatigue, at any minute, if something goes wrong, a bucket could blow out. If a centrifuge, something separates things based on density, the one I have,
+
+[21:45] the, you know, a couple of the ones I have, have swinging bucket rotors, which means it's basically like holding a paint pail on the end of a stick and spinning it at 4000 RPM, generating 4000 times the force of gravity,
+
+[21:55] right? So at these kind of speeds, every gram is equal to about 4 kilograms. So they use aluminum because it's lightweight, and so you can spin it a lot faster. Otherwise, the mass would be too high and you wouldn't be able to spin it. Problem is aluminum fatigues, and it can be unpredictable and basically just give out on you at any moment, as any of you may have
+
+[22:14] known, like, you know, with, you know, if you've ever had an incident with an aluminum bicycle. Most aluminum bicycles are great. My bicycle is made out of aluminum, nothing against aluminum bicycles. Okay. So, uh, the point is, is that if one of these things goes south, the thing like, you know,
+
+[22:27] it can go way far south. Now that the one I'm using is
+
+[22:33] safe, as long as it's not, like you're not thwarting any of the safety mechanisms. Unfortunately, I know how to thwart all the safety mechanism, so I can run it with the lid open, which you should never do. So Nastasia's saying it's unsafe, but I want to take a video of the thing while it's running. By the way, there is a centrifuge that's made by Labconco called a CentraVap that is made with a clear top that we can run and it comes with a stroboscope so you can see it running while it's going, but it only does very small samples, but maybe we can borrow one or use it to do filming.
+
+[22:58] Anyway, I bought a half inch thick piece of, you know, really tough. I mean, it's not quite bulletproof at only a half inch, but like half inch
+
+[23:07] thick, um, Lexan. And then I used, you know, like £4000 rated ratchet come alongs to ratchet it down to this top of the centrifuge after I had defeated the safety so I could run it with the lid open. And we took some videos of the centrifuge running and I used a stroboscope, you know, like a strobe that with a variable speed on it so that I
+
+[23:27] could like kind of freeze the buckets when we were looking at them. So maybe sometime we'll do a video. What do you think, Staz? You put it up on the way. cool to see. All right, all right, all right. We do it. Basically, this is just a long involved way for Nastasia to have you get off my butt and do some more, do some more work for the
+
+[23:43] butt. videos, do some more videos. The videos are actually easier to put up on the blog than writing. You know, writing is such a pain in the behind. but anyway. So, so there you have it. That's centrifuge and safety, but I don't want, like, like I said, I don't want any of you guys having the impression out there that I do things that are
+
+[24:02] unsafe. I wouldn't, it's not, it's not the case. All right. So now, and I know we're going to have to take a break in a couple of minutes,
+
+[24:10] but we're going to start our turkey Thanksgiving turkey extravaganza set of notes. So we have a nice note in from, um, uh, Ken uh,
+
+[24:23] Ingber uh, from Situate Mass. Is that how you pronounce situate? situate mass? I think so. But he grew up in Brooklyn. And his question is, why is he still alive after eating his mom's turkey? All right. So his mom, right? And I'll just read it, right? So, uh, basically, uh, he loved, by the way, his mom's Thanksgiving Turkey, right? So his mom slathered the turkey with garlic. This is, quote, mom slather the turkey with garlic a couple days before Thanksgiving, covered it with aluminum foil, and kept it on the enclosed back porch.
+
+[24:55] This was New York City in the 50s and 60s. Some years ago, uh, some years we had snow, but many of those years I would play touch football on the street wearing a t-shirt. Garlic may have had some minor antimicrobial properties, which it does, but could that overcome sitting in a climate of 50 degrees for 2
+
+[25:09] days. And he, in Paranzi goes, I cannot be absolutely sure, but I don't think that mom started with a frozen bird.
+
+[25:15] The fact that none of us ever got sick from the Turk. The fact is none of us ever got sick from the turkey. As a matter of fact, mom's turkey dinner was renowned in the family, eagerly anticipated each year before the
+
+[25:24] event, and then finally recalled afterwards by as many as 25 people at a sitting.
+
+[25:28] With all that, I still ask, why am I still alive? It's an excellent question, Ken. I'm glad that you are still alive. Uh, but I did a little bit of a little bit of research on this. But the 1st thing that pops into my head is I wonder whether your mom also
+
+[25:43] puts some salt on the outside of the bird as well as garlic. Um, right? I mean, so she put some, like, garlic is antimicrobial, and salt on the outside of the bird would
+
+[25:54] be, would also help, which she probably did, even if she didn't start with a frozen bird.
+
+[25:59] The only thing I'm curious about is the aluminum foil because I think what would stop kind of the rotting would be kind of good airflow in a cool environment,
+
+[26:07] right? So it's actually going to take quite a while for something to spoil at 50 degrees, let's say it's 50 degrees, it would take a while for something to spoil out in those kind of temperatures, especially because if the cavity, right, which is
+
+[26:21] contaminated, and if the outside of the bird, which is contaminated, is exposed to
+
+[26:25] an airflow, relatively dry airflow. See, the one thing is, is that in, and we're in New York, at this part of time of year in New York, even if it's not very cold, it's also not very humid.
+
+[26:36] So there's not a lot of moisture. So I would assume that you would get basically a pellicle, sort of dry coating that would form on the outside of the bird, uh, and on the inside cavity. And that, to a good extent, would help prevent some of these spoilers bacteria from growing, right? On its own. The garlic would also help prevent some spoilers bacteria. The inside of the muscle, assuming that the butchering is done properly is relatively sterile, right? And so it's not going to have a lot of bacteria growing. So as long as it's not really warm and really moist, I'm not surprised, frankly, that it
+
+[27:09] didn't spoil. Now, the food safety people are going to go crazy on me here, but listen, listen, if you look back in the day, right, when you hunted birds, what did you
+
+[27:19] do? You hung them up, right? So in the old days when you go hunting and a lot of the hunting season for these kind of birds would start in the fall, right?
+
+[27:28] And then continue, continue through the winter, but in the fall, you would, in relatively cool weather like this, you would hang birds to age. And what would happen during this hanging period, right? Whether you drew it or not, you know, you know, gutted or not, is the meat would become more tender, especially on something like, you know, a wild bird that's going to be tough and
+
+[27:46] stringy, um, the, the hanging it is going to, at those slightly higher temperatures, like 50s or so, is going to encourage the enzymes in the meat to break down the meat a little bit and to stop it from being so
+
+[27:57] tough. and also probably improve the flavor. So this is a time honored technique. I was reading actually like Texas Hunters magazine from like 2004 or something and they, they, you know, they were saying, why don't we go back
+
+[28:10] to aging and hanging meats, but I was not able to find anyone who's done. I didn't look too much. I mean, I'd like to look more because I'm kind of interested in the subject, but I was not able to find any scientific studies on the microbiology of hanging hanging game. You know what I mean? So I know that, you know, the hunters, they recommend that if you shoot something that you, you know, if it's been hit really hard with shot and the shot penetrates the intestines, right, then you can't really hang it for too long because you've contaminated the meat with stuff
+
+[28:42] that's nasty, but a relatively well killed animal, right? Poultry, especially, you know, would be would be hung for a while. And in fact, most people don't die. And, you know, just to go even further. I mean, it's not necessarily, it's a specious argument, right, to say that just because I haven't died doing something. For instance, let's say I cross the street every day and don't look, right? Just because I'm not dead doesn't make it a safe practice. But on the other hand, uh, techniques like this that go back, you know, since, you know,
+
+[29:13] time of memorial hanging, hanging birds out. Um, and not like this is exactly the same because it's a, you know, it's a, it's, you know, a bird that you got from the supermarket or from wherever.
+
+[29:23] You know, sometimes these old practices, they have validity and they just haven't
+
+[29:28] been validated yet, but through scientific research or maybe it has. I mean, I haven't done enough research, but a lot of people, especially with food safety, tend to argue on the extreme side of 100% safety.
+
+[29:40] So there's many things that are forbidden by food codes and food regulations that would be
+
+[29:45] safe, that just haven't been adequately studied. So, you know, one way to get things, and so I'll give you some more examples. Like you go to Chinatown and you see all the meat hanging in the window, right? And that stuff's in the danger zone for a long time, right? So why is that safe? Well, the meat's already been cooked. So presumably the bacteria on the inside with the exception of spores has been knocked out by the cooking process. Then it's hanging, right, in a relatively warm environment, but it's painted with a shellac of stuff that has a very low water activity,
+
+[30:18] right? You know, they're all glazed, all that meat in the window is glazed or has a dry, fried, crispy surface on the outside. And because there's no, there's not a lot of water on the outside, which is where bacteria would be infiltrating, right, from the outside,
+
+[30:30] because they're not going to come from the inside, you killed all those. Because of that, there's not a really good place for bacteria to start growing. And so you don't die. And that's why you can go to Chinatown, get one of those ducks that's been hanging in the window all day and eat it without dying, right? Anyway, so, uh, you know, I, I, the only thing that confuses me a little bit is the aluminum
+
+[30:51] foil because I would think that you might be able to, like, harbor some bacteria where the aluminum foil is touching the bird because, um, because
+
+[30:58] there you, you, it wouldn't be dry enough. You might have like a moist environment, it could cause some problems. But also most spoilers bacteria, you'll be able to smell. So if the turkey started to go south on you, you'd probably know it. You know what I mean? Anyway, excellent question. And, uh, you know, my family would never eat it if I tried that technique, but uh, apparently it made for a delicious Thanksgiving turkey. And we're going to go to a break, but more on Thanksgiving turkeys when we come back. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. Okay.
+
+[31:24] 718-497-2128, cooking issues.
+
+[32:07] You know what? When I hear a blue like this, boo. Oh, I say, I got to get out.
+
+[32:27] Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, man. Hey, thanks. Look here. Some kind of groove like this. You know, you know, I
+
+[32:47] need the grip. Got, got, got, get, got, get, got, get, job, get, job. You need to get there. Got to bit no bread. You know, I believe, hey, hey, Brad, come. You're listening to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call in all your questions are going to be here for another 15 minutes or so to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So we wrapped up the last segment talking about turkey safety and particularly, you know, early 50s and 60s Brooklyn Garlic sitting on the porch turkey. which is a very interesting question. But now I'm going to turn to the kind of perennial question that people say is, what about stuffing the turkey, right? So all the food safety sources, they tell you not to stuff your turkey beforehand. And the reason is, is because they're worried that you're not going to get the inside of the stuffing up to temperature in time,
+
+[33:50] right? Or you're not going to cook the stuffing at all to the proper temperature. And that you're going to have possibly an unsafe situation. The other thing that could theoretically happen is that stuff could grow in the stuffing during the time while it's heating
+
+[34:03] up because it takes a long time to heat up, right, to get to the center, and so you're apt to increase your chances for
+
+[34:08] having a serious foodborne illness coming out of your turkey. Now, here are my feelings on that. If you stuff a bird, right? You're drastically increasing the amount of time it's going to take to cook the bird because all of a sudden, like, you know, it's become a
+
+[34:24] lot a lot bigger things. So if he can get into the cavity, if it's open. It's going to roast a lot quicker because you have a lot fewer inches of meat to go
+
+[34:33] through and doubling the number of inches that something has to go through to get up to temperature, radically, radically, radically increases the amount of time it takes to cook it, right? So 1st of all, from just from a time management standpoint. It takes a long, long time to cook a turkey with stuffing in it. So you're apt to not hit a high enough internal temperature to have the stuffing be safe. So they recommend that you don't, that you don't do it, right? And it's true. You know, I don't like to put my bird in, like, you know, some people who shall remain
+
+[35:02] name Nastasia. That's not me. All right, all right, but put the bird in at like the beginning of the day and then like take a, like a, like a burnt cinder out at
+
+[35:11] dinner time and, you know, try to crack it with a hammer and serve it to people. Like that's not how I'm into doing turkeys. anyway. But, um, you know, and there are recipes out there. So the way to really do this, right, is to kind of pre-cook your stuffing a little bit and then shove it into your bird, and this is a good alternative, but it's kind of unsatisfying because you're going to be cooking the stuffing before you put it in the
+
+[35:31] bird, and that's no good. If you have a circulator. Here's my Thanksgiving stuffing tip for you. My my listeners who have immersion circulators. Make your stuffing beforehand, right? Put it in a Ziploc bag. You know, don't be too mean to it, but like, you know, put it in a Ziploc bag and, you know, make it fairly compressed, right? And circulate it at 57 Celsius for like an hour, right? before you're going to put it into the turkey. Now, when I say 57, I'm assuming that you're keeping your packs of
+
+[36:02] stuff like thinner than about an inch, right? Your Ziploc bags are about only about an inch thick or less. So 57 for like an hour, an hour and 20 minutes, right? That should kill almost anything in that stuffing, right? Plus, plus now that stuffing is at 57 degrees Celsius. You could actually go a little higher, like 58, 60. But 57 is good, and I'll tell you why. There's nothing in most stuffing mixtures, unless you're doing an oyster stuffing or you're doing a, like, I don't know, like a roast beef stuffing. There's nothing in there that's going to get damaged by 57 degrees Celsius, right? So the binder in most stuffing mixes is going to be eggs, right? Eggs are basically raw when cooked to 57 for the length of time that
+
+[36:43] we're talking about. raw but pasteurized, right? Bread is going to be relatively unaffected by these temperatures. Cook sausage, unaffected by these temperatures, things like celery, like onions that you
+
+[36:55] sweat sweated out. All the textures and tastes of that stuff are going to be pretty much not affected by 57
+
+[37:01] Celsius. So, and that's like what, 135 degrees Fahrenheit, somewhere in that range, right? So medium rare for a steak. So you circulate it for like an hour, hour and a half up to 2 hours or so in a Ziploc bag, right? And now you have hot stuffing, right? So now it's time to cook the bird. So you have the bird cavity, salt out the inside, you know, put salt over the inside, which is also
+
+[37:21] going to help kill some of the bacteria on the inside, blah, blah, make it taste good, yada, yada. And then take like a clean pair of dishwashing gloves, nice thick gloves that, you know, you can hold something that's 57 for a while without burning. and stuff the bird with the hot stuffing, like directly out of the ziplocs, pull it out
+
+[37:37] of the circulator, stuff the bird with the hot stuffing. Now the stuffing is safe, right? And, you know, you're going to be cooking it like up to the thing, and it's also going to give the bird a jump start on cooking, right? What's so funny? What? Nastasia is having some sort of lewd thought about stuffing hot stuffing. No, no, no. What? You saying the bird. That's it. Oh, oh, I did? Anyway, okay. So you stuff it up with this stuff and then you're giving a jump start, so now the turkey's going to cook faster. It's going to cook, like, on the insides, it's going to get a jump start. it's going to be. I think it's going to be a better bird all around. I haven't had time to test it. But I think that the technique, in general, is a good one and is going to give you a better, more even cooked turkey.
+
+[38:19] So anyway, that's my Thanksgiving tip for for you folks out there. Now, on to my Thanksgiving, right? So, uh, for readers of the blog, uh, might know, if you read last year, we, uh, developed a technique for cooking turkeys that involved, uh,
+
+[38:37] boning glove boning where you basically turn the turkey inside out and uh, you turn a turkey inside out, rip out all the bones, and you don't cut it.
+
+[38:44] So it's like basic, it's called glove boning, but it's basically like reaching into a turkey and ripping its bones out and leaving it whole. And so you have this basically this turkey sack, right? And I also take out the bones of the of the legs. And the reason I do this is because I want to speed up the rate at which it cooks, right? Because if it turns out if you cook a turkey for a long time at low temperature in an immersion circulator, that the meat can get kind of fiber, even if it's not overcooked, so I want to keep the
+
+[39:10] cooked dime down to about 2 hours. So I remove the bones because that's extra mass, right? Then I take out the bones and the legs because the legs want to cook to a higher temperature than the breast, right? Right? Right, right, right. So the legs you're going to want to cook to about 66 Celsius in that range and the breasts you're going to want to cook to about 6465 Celsius. Also, if the legs take too long to cook, especially at these low temperatures where you're not going to overcook the hell out of them, the redness by
+
+[39:33] the where the bones are never goes away. So you got to cook fast. So what we do is, is you take aluminum. I make an aluminum skeleton and I pump hot oil through the aluminum skeleton to cook it from the inside out for like an hour or something before I drop it into the rest of the hot
+
+[39:48] fat and then cook the whole thing at the at the slightly lower temperature. So I get the legs a jumpstart, I cook them through at 65 because they can also cook a lot longer than the breast without turning kind of
+
+[39:57] fivery. Then I drop the whole bird into the thing. Cook the whole thing through in butter, pick it up, cool it down, and then when it comes
+
+[40:04] Thanksgiving time, we just like spray hot, you know, fat over it, you know, like crisp it up with a fryer, serve out
+
+[40:10] a bird, delicious, awesome. Also, it has no bones. So you can just slice it. Oh, I forgot. We put aluminum foil into the cavity to keep it puffed up during the
+
+[40:18] cooking. Otherwise it's, you know, a nightmare. Also, I use 2 circulators so that I can cook the inside and the outside at once, you know, whatever. I'm, you know, I go, you know, whatever. I take it to the extreme, but I like a good bird. So this year, and the other thing about it is I can cook a giant turkey like this. So the 1st time I did it, I did it with like a £30 turkey. And this time, this year I'm cooking a smaller turkey. I cooking a heritage breed turkey. I actually cooking one from Heritage Foods. The, uh, you know, the, the patrons of this fine radio network. And I'm cooking one of their Narragansett birds. So Narragansett is an old breed that is derived from a cross between an old commercials,
+
+[40:54] Norfolk something, I think, and wild, you know, indigenous turkeys from, it comes from Rhode Island from the Rhode Island area. These turkeys, by the way, literally roam around on the houses, like around the lawns in Westchester where my parents live, whereby, you know, my mom, my stepfather live. We see them all the time. My stepfather, so divorced from the idea of like food, coming from anything other than the supermarket that we saw like a, what do you call it? Like a gaggle of wild turkeys running across the lawn one day. He goes, look, fresh turkeys. I'm like, fresh. They're alive. What do you mean? Anyway. So, uh, so like this Narraganza turkey is a heritage breed. This one is, the one I have is about £16 or so. And so it's already been boned inside and out. And as soon as we get back to, I mean, they're sold out this year anyway, so you can't get it. too late. It's too late. This is from next year that you should be getting a heritage turkey. Uh, there, you know, some people, they want to know
+
+[41:48] why, why it costs so much, but these, you know, these turkeys are raised by kind of small farmers and they're, they're processed, you know,
+
+[41:54] nicely, and then, um, you know, they're, they're shipped to you. They're harder to grow, and they're done in smaller numbers. And, yeah, you're only doing it once a year. So you spend the extra money on your, don't you love your family? anyway. So we're cooking this Narragansett, this bird, and I'll report back, hopefully next week, because I'm assuming it's going to be incredibly delicious, because the meat, they choose these breeds, not just because they're heritage, but because the meat quality, they're raised not just because they grow fast or have a
+
+[42:22] high what's called feed conversion ratio, where they can basically turn, you know, they can produce X number of pounds of turkey for X number of pounds of grain.
+
+[42:29] These breeds are chosen presumably because the meat tastes better. So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm going to put, as soon as I get back to work today, I'm shoving the aluminum skeleton into this one and you can read about the old post online. But anyway, so I'm shoving the aluminum skeleton and we're going to cook it up. I'm going to take it up to Westchester and we will report back next week, right? Yeah. Okay. So, uh, I'll, you know, end with a couple, a couple of things. Uh, here's one. So I did an article for cooking issues. dot com about eating weird meats, popular science, then approached me and said, we want to, you know, can you write a modified version of that
+
+[43:08] for our blog? I was like, sure, yeah, right? I like popular science, popular science been very kind to me in the past, printed, you know, a really Ted Allen, you know, the food network
+
+[43:16] star wrote something there about me. very nice. And, um, and, you know, we like popular science, but whoever edited the piece kind of sexted up a little bit and made me sound kind of like a bloodthirsty animal hating monster, a little bit,
+
+[43:31] right? Yeah, right? And I didn't even know it. So all of a sudden I start getting all these negative comments on the blog, which I've never had before. And then Nastasia goes and looks at the actual popular science website. And there's literally someone there who threatened to kidnap me,
+
+[43:49] fatten me up, not necessary, by the way, fattening me up, not necessary. And then, you know, so it could save him some time, right? They thought they'd have to spend an extra week to fatten me up. totally unnecessary. Uh, and um, kill me and then serve me to his dog. right? Serve me to his dog. And here's my question, right? Your dog's a meat eater. Why aren't you mad at your dog? Right? Anyway. Uh, I mean, that's crazy, right? Here's the thing. I have so many people. Look, I am not a cruel, heartless bastard, right? I mean, I am, but not about that. Not about the animals. You know, I get all these people writing in about these weird animals that we're eating, saying that, you know, we're terrible people. They're sickened, like, especially like there's a picture of a whole cooked raccoon on the, on the, on our blog, right? And they're like, well, that whole raccoon is revolting. Here's the thing. Well it looks like a small child. Well, I hope your child doesn't look like a cooked raccoon, Stasi. You know what I'm saying? My point is this, right? They would prefer that meat eaters have no idea that they were eating an
+
+[44:58] animal. They would prefer that everything be packaged so that you could kill animals indiscriminately and never know that there was an animal involved at all,
+
+[45:06] right? So when a meat eater actually is honest. And it's like, here is a whole animal that we have cooked and eaten, like that's revolting to them. crazy, right? Not logical. People are illogical, you know? And plus, and we'll end on this one. We'll end on Happy Thanksgiving. But well, we'll end on this one, right? Like, how is the life of a raccoon? More august, more worthwhile than the life of a pig, which is clearly a smarter
+
+[45:35] animal, just more delicious. The pig's only... The picture. Yeah, I mean like, you know, I'm not a believer that stuff that you do should be hidden behind closed doors.
+
+[45:46] I just don't believe that. anyway. Happy Thanksgiving to you and you and your family, you and your own, from cooking issues in the Heritage Radio Network. We'll talk to you next week. Vicious, fish, vodka. The New England and New York farm families who own Cabot cooperative are offering listeners a chance to win some of the world's best cheddar simply by calling
+
+[46:08] into our network at 718-4972128 or emailing us at info at heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[46:15] What a great way to start the holidays. We'll be picking a winner for the program one week from today. Cabot Creamery is a proud supporter of what Heritage Radio is all about. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, the person who keeps the wheels on the truck. Call in all of your questions, cooking related or not? Well, probably cooking related technology related or not. Although we will take all questions. all issues. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, right. Today's show isn't just cooking issues. issues in general. you know, especially coming off the holiday weekend. Call in all your questions too. 718-4972128. That's 718-497-2128. We're going to be here live for another 45 minutes or so. Today's show is brought to you by 360 cookware. 360 cookware is top of the line, stainless to a cookware that is made in America in the greenest cookware manufacturing facility in the country. It can be used to make all of your favorite recipes, but it also gives the option to cook using vapor technology, which creates a seal that surrounds food with intense heat,
+
+[1:01] locking in vitamins, moisture, and flavor without added oil, fat, or excess water. Visit our website at 360cookware.com for more information. That's 360cookware.com. Okay, now. All right. So while we're waiting for that phone call, let's start in on the Thanksgiving and the heritage turkey, the Narragansett, have you listened last week? We received a heritage breed, Narragansett, Turkey from Heritage Heritage Foods, and I cooked it using a technique. We have a caller, so I'll go back into it in a minute, but suffice it to say, best damn turkey I've ever made in my whole life. So good, in fact, so good that no one was able to take a picture of it before it was completely gone. I swear to God, like I've never not had turkey leftovers the next day. We didn't even have that many people. Turkey was obliterated, obliterated. gone. Anyway, okay, so we have a color? Color, you were on the air. Hello? Oh, we lost our call. Hello, hey, how you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm calling from California. And I actually have a question about your hydrocolid course coming up in January. Alrighty. I'm trying to decide whether it's worth $1,500 for the course plus the flight across country and 3 nights in the hotel room. Well, hopefully you'll also eat at some good restaurants while you're here. One of the benefits of being in New York. I do that every year, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're asking me to sell the class. Okay. Exactly. All right. Well, here's what, here's what I, hydrocoloids. First of all, you know, I'm a little bit biased because I teach the class. Uh, you know, along with uh, Nils Noran, the VP of culinary uh, culinary arts, I guess, is this title over there. It's, you know, I realize that the classes can be somewhat pricey,
+
+[2:45] but there's a whole lot of work that goes into it.
+
+[2:49] And whether or not it's worthwhile, for you depends a lot on you. Hydrocolloids is a, it's a difficult subject to teach because invariably in the
+
+[2:58] class we get people with a wide range of previous, previous knowledge, previous
+
+[3:02] experience, and also goals, right? So when you're teaching something like low temperature sous vide cooking. You know, pretty much everyone's goals are fairly similar, and it's a matter of just showing people what's possible within the realm, within the context of cooking low temperature. You know, this is what we can do with different kinds of proteins at different times with different treatments. This is what we can do with, you know, vegetables and various technologies, ways to do things. And so, like, it's very focused and everyone is there pretty much with the same goal in mind. Hydrocoloids is such a wide open field that, um, we basically we have to hit, there's certain things we have to hit, right? Because some people in the class may have never used hydrocolloids at all. Some people might be very, very experienced. So the class has to be a balance between things that, you know, maybe you might already know how to do, like spherification. We tend to deal with it with a more, you know, in a more kind of rigorous way than you would get anywhere else. I think that's, you know, the goal, that's what, you know, we try to do in general at the FCI and the tech department in cooking issues in particular, we try to do things in a very rigorous
+
+[4:04] way whenever possible. And I think that's a standpoint you can, you know, you always get. But aside from those kind of basic techniques, we also try to teach some techniques, there's always something that no one's seen
+
+[4:13] before because we always try to develop at least one or 2 new things for each class. I mean, when I say new, I mean like brand new. And then, um, that the, the, you know, the other thing besides the specific applications is we try to teach a particular way of thinking about using these ingredients.
+
+[4:27] So, you know, how to develop a recipe properly. So, I mean, I think that I've had people take the class and come back to me and said that, you know, they were able to apply their stuff right away in
+
+[4:39] their menus, you know what I mean? I've never had anyone come back and say, you know, it was useless, you know what I mean? Or, like, what wasn't necessarily worth it, but, you know, I think it all depends on what you want to get out of it and kind of how you want to
+
+[4:52] apply it. I mean, a lot of the people that we deal with are chefs. And so for them, it's it's straight up. I mean, I don't know whether you're a chef or not, but a lot of them is straight up, well, am I going to get enough new menu items out of it. And usually the answer is yes. Um, you know, also I'm terrible at selling myself. Am I right, Nastasia? I'm like the worst person at selling myself because, you know, I hate to sell someone on something and then have them not get what they want. Is this be helpful at all or no? It's a little bit helpful. Let me tell you where I'm at. You know, I've read things like the, you know, the hydrocolid recipe collection from Martin Lersh and I've read your primer and stuff and done some of the recipes. Uh, I'm not as interested actually in recipes as I am in understanding if I'm going to be using, you know, sodium
+
+[5:36] alginate and calcium carbonate that what are the, you know, how does acidity affect it? How does, uh, uh, you know, temperature affect, things like that, so that I can then use those chemicals uh, on my own without a
+
+[5:50] recipe uh, to develop new things? I mean, that's our that's our goal. Our, you know, my goal in general, and if you talk to, you know, like my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrayne at WD 50, he hates giving, he didn't hate, but he prefers not to just give out straight recipes because he wants to foster understanding of how to use these ingredients, right?
+
+[6:07] I mean, with, I mean, the one problem is, is that it's over the course of 2 days, we're going to be dealing with a wide range of products.
+
+[6:15] So, I mean, like, for instance, with Alginate, one of the things we deal with in general, Alginate, you know, as you've, you know, alluded to,
+
+[6:20] for all those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, sodium alginate is a seaweed derived
+
+[6:24] hydrocolloid, like a geling agent that stays liquid until it hits calcium, free
+
+[6:30] calcium at which point it forms a gel that, you know, that is not broken neither by heat nor by anything else, basically.
+
+[6:37] I mean, it's just the gels there forever. The unfortunate part about sodiumalgenate is it tends to suck up flavor, have very kind of poor flavor. The gel itself. You would never eat a block of alge in it because it just tastes wretched. Anyway. But so, uh, as you know, it's affected by acid. So yes, we get into that, right? But, you know, like, you know, it's more saying the level we're going to take it to is, look, you know, you can't have
+
+[7:00] acid too much acid because it's not, it's going to cause the alginate not to set. And then, uh, you know, furthermore, you need to use uh, something called a
+
+[7:07] sequestrate, to sequester the calcium that's freed up in the water as the acidity increases, or use a buffering agent such as sodium citrate. We'll get into that kind of stuff and like sodium hexametophosphate, but it's, you know, it's not, I mean, it's, there's only a certain level of actual technical information we can get into in the class
+
+[7:22] because we're, like I say, we're dealing with people with a wide range of backgrounds and goals. You know what I mean? So we're going to deal with it, but, you know, I'm not going to say that it's the same as reading scientific literature on the subject, you know, which
+
+[7:33] we can point you to. You know, you know what I mean? Well, it's said to be literature doesn't necessarily apply. I find a lot of it is just, to get to the, where I can use it in my cooking, uh, is a bit obtuse. Um, Yeah, just uh, probably. I'm a culinary instructor and I really don't like giving out recipes. I mean, that's that frame of mind. I'm, I want to teach people principles. I'm going to teach them, you know, how to think about the food and then go ahead and do it. Uh, without having to follow a recipe, uh, line by line, some sort of prescription. So that's sort of, and it sounds like you're doing that in the class, so you're not doing recipes that you are.
+
+[8:11] going more into the principles. Right. And we've had really good luck with culinary instructors, by the way, taking our class. So to get the school to pay for it. Anyway, it's a nonprofit. Sorry. Yeah, all right. Well, anyway, I hope to see you in January and thanks for calling. Okay, bye. All right. Okay, so now, back to our Thanksgiving real quick. Wait, oh, we have another caller? Caller, you are on the air. Hi there, dude, it's Colin Gorgan from down here in DC. Howdy? Uh, I have 2 things, I want to ask. I know there's probably a break coming up, so maybe pick whichever's easier. We'll power through it. do it. All right, okay. So 1st thing I want to do. All right, I'm making oyster mushroom soup oysters, right, out of, kind of dropping them in an
+
+[8:58] alternate bath and making these kind of like snotty little oyster looking things that are full of delicious briny oyster
+
+[9:05] soup. And uh, I want to make the kind of that alginate skin on them, a little more perolescent, a little more like, you know, oystery, not like, thin, uh, translucent, kind of snotty thing you get from the
+
+[9:22] algae. Right. Okay, so, but, like, like, hard snot. It's not like, it's not like a Xanthan, it's not. not adding a lot of Xanthe. Oh, yeah, no, no, they like, they come out great. It's just they're clear, right? Right. And I want this, I want that very surface kind of skin to have a little bit of, like, be more translucent
+
+[9:38] than transparent. Okay. Give it some... here's a couple of ways we can go. First of all, are you doing forward algernate or reverse algernate? Reverse. Okay, you're doing, so you're doing, and they're frozen beforehand? Or not frozen? Not frozen. Okay. Just out of curiosity. I do a lot of mine, I'll freeze just because it makes it easier. Like you freeze the mixture and then you drop it in and you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, good idea. Yeah, so I'm... Definitely had crumbs, like, you know, forming them. Yeah, basically 98% of the time I'll pre-freeze them because it's not that long of an extra step and it just makes your processing much easier. Okay, now to your prolescent problem. There are a couple of solutions. So you're looking to add something to the alginate bath, both the modified the texture and the look. Okay. Now, if you want to just modify the look. I don't recommend this, by the way, by what I'm saying to you, I don't recommend, but you can go the
+
+[10:25] Kike de Costa method. Kike de Costa, as you might know, famous Spanish chef. Uh, adds a lot of metal dust to a lot of his stuff, right?
+
+[10:33] So you can get food grade, basically perolescent powder that's relatively flavor. I'm not recommending this. But I'm saying like as the fastest way. So he did a famous dish where he did an oyster that he literally put silver dust on, like an oyster oyster,
+
+[10:47] not like what you're saying, I believe. been a long time, been many years, but that looked, you know, that was from shiny stuff. You know what I mean? And it gave her an interesting look. I'm not so much about adding stuff that doesn't have a sort of a flavor impact. Now, if you want to go flavor impact, you can do that. It going to look good. not going to affect the taste, so you can get food grade silver, either from like, well, usually leaf, if you get it from an Indian source, like an
+
+[11:09] Aervedic source, or you can get food grade powders. I't know where Kik got them, probably somewhere in Spain. Now, if you want to add more of a shimmer to it, and you want to modify the texture of the alginate, right? So that it doesn't taste like solidified snot, right, technical term, right? Nostasia solidified, it's not anywhere. So, uh, what I would do is emulsify some oil into the alternate base before you drop. So what you're doing is, yeah, so that's going to, this is an old semi-established technique, but one that's not really talked about a lot because everyone knows that the texture of an alginate gel is not so great.
+
+[11:42] If you add a little oil, multify a little oil in to it, right? All of a sudden, now your teeth are going to break it better, it's going to look better, it's going to feel softer. And as long as you're careful with it. You're not going to destroy the integrity of it too much, right? And so that, I mean, to me, much more than the than adding metal does to it, like that, because you're improving the actual
+
+[12:04] product other than just the visuals. It will also, you know, because you're emulsifying stuff in, it'll get a shimmery, you know, more of
+
+[12:10] an salad dressing, a shimmery look to it, but you're actually also going to need a better product. Just make sure that you're emulsifying oil into the alginate and not the other way around because the alternate needs to be the continuous phase. Anyway, and what was the other one? Let's see whether we can tackle the other one real quick before I go to break, although Nastasia and Jack are going to shut my head. Yeah, I want to ask if you ever, so your juices that you clarified with your peck
+
+[12:34] necks got, you know, nice clear juices. Have you ever tried reducing them or making a glaze or even like a caramel out of that reduced
+
+[12:42] uh juice? Oh, yes. Do you know if the Technic, the Technics has a negative effect on that? No, we do that all the time. I mean, I've never done it over heat because like, you know, we're all about trying to preserve the original flavor of it. So I typically will reduce in my rotary evaporator, but I've made some of the most ridiculous
+
+[13:01] reductions. So like typical applications we've done, like fresh apple reduction that we've clarified and taken it down to a syrup. We've done fresh strawberry. In fact, I don't know whether I talked about it on error, but it was a result of a question someone asked on
+
+[13:13] error once. I made a candy where we did, I reduced a fresh clarified strawberry juice down, you know, without heat down to about 33
+
+[13:21] bricks. And then you stirred that into a candy base that I had made that let cool, you know, somewhat so the strawberry wasn't flavored, crazy, crazy good, crazy good. And we've done blood orange. You like the blood orange, right, nastasia, where we reduce it to a syrup post-clarification. So it's an excellent application. I don't know what the results with heat are because it's going to taste a little bit cooked,
+
+[13:42] but, you know, so there's certain clarification steps that if you can cook it, you might as well cook it.
+
+[13:46] But on the other hand, Pecnex is very good, especially on things like Apple and whatnot. So yes, the quick answer is yes. So, well, yeah, I was just curious then. What if, uh, All right, if I wanted
+
+[13:58] to kind of kick the remaining starchy bits and the solid bits out of some, like, uh, sweet potato slurry and try to caramelize the remaining sugars
+
+[14:09] left. I know he even talked last week about, uh, like this is something I've been thinking about for a
+
+[14:14] while, because you know how, like, when you bake a sweet potato, you get this delicious, sometimes, sometimes you get this delicious, like, caramelized stuff that oozes out,
+
+[14:21] and, like, drips on the pan. I want to, I want to make that, but, like, in large amounts. So I figured, especially when I had saw a paper a couple months ago about, uh, you know, there being a lot of analyzes in sweet potatoes, so you could maximize, you know, how much
+
+[14:37] sugar is in them, maybe break down some extra starches, and then I go figure out a way to kind of turn that into, like, you know, remove enough of the kind of solid matter to get, like, a sugary
+
+[14:49] liquid, I can simmer down and turn into a caramel. There's no question in my mind. There's no question in my mind at all that you can juice a sweet potato and then clarify it. No question. And then, though, the sugar's away in there. Now, if you wanted to get sweeter, uh, you could add some, um, some brewers, some amylase to it. You know what I mean? Some alpha beta amylase, you'd get a brewer supply shop, add it to that and just basically mash it out like you would a wart for beer. You know what I mean? And then the question is getting the right balance, then clarifying it and cooking out the mash before you set
+
+[15:20] the start. The key is, is that to spin out or to get, to clarify out the extra starch before you gelatinize it. You know what I mean? Because then after you gelatinize it, oh, everything's a pain in the ass. Would you rec- uh, you know, rear, I mean. Do you think tech connects would be a good rap for that? or are there... No, you know, we, I could tip physical separation to you, you know? I mean, physical separation is what I would try first, but I mean, because I don't know how much of it's soluble. I know how much of it is stabilized by by the pecking, but it's something we could
+
+[15:45] try, if Nastasia remembers to write it down, we'll give it a give it a whirl. But yeah, definitely doable. Definitely doable. But now, now, yeah, I mean, do you think, I mean, could I just try throwing it through a juicy, for instance, afterwards, would that be possible? Because I was like, I would juice it right away. juice it right away and then do any procedure you're going to have to the juice because it's just going to free up more of the
+
+[16:07] enzymes. So do all your juicing. I've never tried juicing a sweet potato before. I didn't really know if I could expect it to squeeze a lot out. I don't know what your yield is going to be. I don't know, but, you know, you could also juice it, treat the pulp, treat the pulp with
+
+[16:20] Pectinex and rejuice. Yeah, okay, yeah. Either way, yield's going to be better than what you get chipping out of soup stairs and you toss them another.
+
+[16:31] Can't be worse. Give us a give us a holler. Tell us how it works. Yeah. Alrighty. Thanks for calling. So do we are we going to go to a break? Okay, we're going to break. We be right back with cooking issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Feel good. So much bone, brother. How you feeling, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him! We're gonna have a bunk, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Gotta take you high.
+
+[17:39] Brother? Now, I want everybody. Let red blow up my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do that with dinner now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Go, James, hold on, man. Fred, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Man! Man!
+
+[18:17] Welcome back to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, a show where we answer all of your cooking issues, or, as Nastasia said today, just your issues. Call in all of your questions too, 718-497-2128-718-497-2128. Uh, here live in Brooklyn. Okay, so back to Thanksgiving for a minute. Because I didn't get to finish what I was saying. So we got this, you know, Patrick gave us this, gave me, I should say, Nastasia didn't get to eat me. But I got my own. Oh, you did? Heritage Breed? But how was it? Did you ever cook it? Little bit. A little bit? A little bit or a lot bit? Was there any moisture in it at all? Was there a similarity with like a hammer? Was it was it like was it like a solid block? No. There was some juice left? Yes. You could eat it without gravy. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so as I said last week, the one that we got, when I got was a Narragansett bird, clocked in around £15, I think, £15 or so. So smaller than my normal, you know, gigundas bird, but, you know, because heritage breed. So I did the bionic turkey, boned it in, you know, boned it inside out without cutting the skin, made an aluminum skeleton for it, made, you know, aluminum leg bones that we cut holes into. So they're like a sprinkler system, hooked it up to a circulator, piped hot oil through the, through
+
+[19:40] the Aerzot's leg bones to cook the legs from the inside out at the correct temperature. I set my circulator at 675 for a final temperature in the
+
+[19:49] leg afterwards, pumped through all the aluminum about 66, which is where I wanted it. Then after about an hour and 20 minutes of that, dropped the whole bird, still with the leg pumping through to get it inside a lot, threw it into a big thing of duck fat.
+
+[20:01] When I say oil, I meant duck fat. In duck fat, cooked it all to about 6 started it a little higher at like 66 and dropped it to 65 and then finally a 64 for the finish off of the cook.
+
+[20:11] Uh, so 64 and a half . cooled it down in the fat, like it was in the fat, like it was a confit, ripped it
+
+[20:17] out. And because my parents, well, my stepfather, actually, is petrified of any sort of cooking operation and doesn't understand it. I decided I was going to finish the bird in the oven rather than my preferred technique, which is 1st deep
+
+[20:28] that frying, and then failing that, ladling hot fat over it to crisp up the skin. So anyway, so I'm like, all right, listen, my stepfather's name is Gerard, so I'm just going to call him Gerard from here. One time I fried a turkey, you know, on the, you know, out on the lawn, right? And a little bit spilled over and hit a little bit of the grass. And he now claims that I started a major forest fire that day. And he says the grass is still dead there,
+
+[20:50] which, 1st of all, let's say it was, who cares? I mean, they got an acre of land, like a little patch of dead grass. Make it the turkey, you know, cooking spot, right? Anyway, not a big problem, but this is the kind of thing that totally flips him out because he does, like I say, even though he's got one of the best palettes for wine that I've ever
+
+[21:04] met, of anyone I've ever met and like loves food. Petrified and doesn't understand anything about cooking at all. Like, doesn't know the sharp end of a knife. You know what I'm saying? anyway. So this year, Oh, and then a year after that, I was like, well, I won't carry your glass, kill your grass. So I fried it. Basically, against my wishes, my mom said fry the turkey again. This is years ago. And I fried it on the patio, on the flagstone, and some oil hit the flagstone, and this was one of those subfreezing Thanksgivings, you know, up in New York,
+
+[21:29] and he was out there. I don't know what the hell he thought he was doing, hosing down Flagstone and below freezing weather because the water was just freezing up as he was trying to get the oil off.
+
+[21:38] Anyway, he ended up, it ruined Thanksgiving for the 2nd time. For turkey related reasons. I mean, I've ruined Thanksgiving many times for other things, arguments and whatnot. But anyway, so this year I was like, it's going to be somewhat normal. I'm going to throw the bird in the oven. Everything's going to be fine. I decide my mom has this clay, this clay, you know, like a baking sheet, almost like a rumor toff, but it's made
+
+[21:57] by, you know, it's clay baking sheet. I'm like, oh, I'm going to throw this in like a pizza stone. I'm going to throw this thing in the because it's got sides, right? So it'll catch the drippings. I'm going to throw it in the oven. crank the oven to 500 degrees and then I'm going to put the turkey in and the bottom's going to get brown just like the top because that's what, you know, the bottom never gets brown properly when you're doing this kind of thing. And my mom's like, no, you're going to set off the smoke detector. I like, mom, she just got a new one put in. I'm like, 1st of all, here's a note to everyone out there. Like, I know safe, smoke detectors, safety, all that crap. Like put a dang, some sort of switch. They are cooking detectors. These things are cooking detectors. And my mom's cooking detector is hooked directly to the fire department. So as soon as you start cooking, like the engines come, and then in Westchester, where my parents live, they charge you, the city gives you a big fat bill, if they show up at your house and there's no fire.
+
+[22:40] Really? Yeah. So it almost makes you want to light a fire. like whenever they come. You know what I mean? I didn't say that. I didn't recommend that. Anyhoo. So, like, you know, I'm running around the house, like, it's like sticking these like plastic covers, these defeaters over
+
+[22:51] the, uh, over the, the cooking detectors. And here's what's demented, right? They don't want to put a switch on it in case you should turn it off and then go to bed, but instead they give you a plastic thing to defeat it,
+
+[22:59] that you have to remember to get on a chair and remove the plastic thing. Does this make any dang sense? It should be like your virus protection when you get on the computer where you say, okay, I will turn it off for the next 20 minutes. You know what I mean? something like that. Anyway, I hate those damn things. My wife installed one once in my apartment in New York, even though we're in a fireproof building, and my only memory of it is it going off and me getting so angry that I literally jumped up and one hand punch fisted it, like, you know, like, oh, yeah, yeah, like
+
+[23:22] street fighter move, like punch the, the, the, and like rain down on the floor in like little pieces. And I was like, I'm sorry. I had to apologize to everyone. I was like, sorry for the outburst, but I have this like visceral reaction against cooking detectors. Anyway, uh, you know, anyway, whatever. Here's the thing also, when you're cooking in the kitchen, right? You know if there's a fire. It's not like in your bedroom or in a hallway at night. You know when you catch something on fire in the kitchen, right? Anyway. And plus, everyone's house is underventilated. So there's always smoke. Whenever you're doing any sort of good cooking operation. So either everyone in the world is setting up... And houses, have those crappy little like Home Depot, Brone, nothing against a Brone corporation, like vents, and they fire them up, and they never can get all of the, all of
+
+[24:06] the, uh, the smoke out. So either everyone is cooking poorly. Maybe true, or everyone is enduring smoke, more probably true. And then a good portion of those people, like someone in the house is freaking out about the smoke. Right? It's irritating. whole thing's irritating. Anyway, whatever. So I'm like, it's going to be fine. We put the little defeaters over the cooking detectors, fired up the oven to 500, which is the highest that thing would go, convection, threw in the baking sheet, got it all nice and hot, throw the turkey on, and for
+
+[24:32] once the turkey actually fit in the oven because I didn't bring a £30 turkey with me, or, you know, I brought like a £15 turkey. Put it on All of a sudden, smoke all through the freaking house. Smoke everywhere. Smoke, smoke on top of smoke on top of smoke. And I'm like, you know, whatever, smoke. I don't care. Everyone's flipping out. Open it up. The dang baking sheet, the clay baking sheet had shattered in
+
+[24:54] two, and all of the drippings and fat and everything from the turkey that was crisping up in the thing were on the bottom of the oven, basically smoking like smoking like the
+
+[25:04] devil. And so I didn't get to fully brown the turkey. And yet still the most delicious bird I've ever made in my life. Once we got through the whole, you know, ruining Thanksgiving aspect of it. So, to report back on the Narraganza turkey, do not overcook the turkey, but the bird definitely
+
+[25:18] had like, it was like turkey squared. It tasted like turkey with turkey flavor in it, even though I hadn't reinforced it with anything. It didn't put gravy on it. I brined it lightly before we cooked it, but, you know, no big deal, but it had a very meaty flavor, enjoyed by all, including my stepfather's 90 or 91-year-old
+
+[25:34] ex butcher father who spent his years, you know, butchering animals back in the old days back when meat had had real
+
+[25:41] flavor. So that's my report back on the Narragansett Turkey, and don't try to crisp that thing on top of a, on top of a clay baking sheet because bad things will happen.
+
+[25:53] Anyway, do you want to catch back up on time and take our 2nd break now? Sure. All right. You want to talk about the class? Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. before we go to break. I have a class coming up, and again, you know, apparently if you listen to the 1st segment, not so good at the self-promotion, but this is actually a very inexpensive class. If you happen to be in New York City tomorrow, and you want to learn how to make some holiday cocktails that you can make at home, and some that require liquid nitrogen and rotary evaporation, then for the meager price of
+
+[26:21] $125, and you'll get how many drinks are you making, some preposterous number of drinks? Hell, it's cheaper than a bar almost, because we're going to give you snacks and everything too. I mean, when you think about it. It's 2 hours. 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. I'll be there. Nils Norn will be there, and we're gonna, you know, make some drinks that go on fire. We're going to make some drinks that are cold. We're gonna, what, you know, anyway, it's tomorrow, and you can sign up by going to www.what? freshculinary.com or something? I don't really know. I know this kind of stuff. No, you have to go to the international culinary center from the French colon. Oh, I don't know. don't know. Google, David Mills, holiday cocktails. Anyway, it should be fun. and if nothing else, you will have a lot to drink. So check that out. Call in your questions. We're coming back for another segment, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feel, brother? You feel good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want no people to know you in here. How you feeling, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. We're gonna have a punk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump. Good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I wanna do it again. You wanna do it again? Yeah, that's it. We gotta take you home.
+
+[28:09] Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow up my two courses. And then I wanna wave in, let's go and do that within us now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. You got James Horn on me. Fred, can you take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Red! Bam!
+
+[28:39] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, Dave Arnold and Nastasia Lopez, here in the studio, waiting for your call at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you from Bushwick, Brooklyn. All right. I have some questions from the from the email. We haven't answered any email questions today. Have we yet? No? All right. I have a couple of questions, Chris S. says. I really want an ISI or EC because they're switching. switching to they're switching to EC here in the U.S. or they're switching to ISI. EC. EC. Yeah, they're both. Like in Europe, they're ISI and here they're EC or vice versa or something like that. So they're both true. We're just going to say EC from now on. And you all know what I'm talking about. Whipped cream makers that we use for like either whipped cream or rapid infusion technique, you know,
+
+[29:27] developed a couple months ago. So the question Chris has is, which is the best one of these EC things to buy, EC
+
+[29:35] Whip. First of all, don't don't buy the I mean, nothing against, but don't buy the seltzer one. It's the most limited. Make sure you get a cream one. And there's all different kinds. There's Prophy Whip. the gourmet whip, like 9 million. They all have crazy names. But in general, the big deal, the newer ones have silicone grip rings on them so that you can grip them when you're
+
+[29:54] wet as opposed to the older ones. So I'd look for the ones that have the silicone grip ring. I should know like exactly what all the line models are, but I don't. The only big difference, really, is the thermal whip, the thermal whip
+
+[30:05] is looks like it's like a three-quarter of a liter or something, but it's actually smaller. It's a half liter and it's insulated. And with the thermal whip, the thermal whip is very useful for people who are working on a line or in an area where they need to keep something hot or cold and they don't have access to either keeping it in the fridge or in a
+
+[30:22] Bain Marie of hot water for service, right? So if you need to keep something hot or cold for a long time, then get a
+
+[30:28] thermo whip, but they're a lot more money and their capacity is lower. Now, I would definitely, I mean, you're more limited if you get a smaller size, but it's also going to cost you less to do a recipe in a smaller size than in a bigger size because you can't just, when you're doing an infusion, in an AC bottle,
+
+[30:47] you, you know, the amount of product in it and how many chargers you put in it are variables, and so you want to keep your recipes the same all the time. Most of my recipes are written for half liter, uh, half liter containers, um, you know, but you can scale them up to liter containers. If you can only buy one and you know you're going to need to make a lot of product at one point, maybe you have to get the leader
+
+[31:07] size, but it's an interesting question to answer. I use mainly half layers. By the way, for any of you, like, we're, like, literally in a construction zone here. So if you hear any like hammering, like don't say that it's not Jack's fault. our engineer. He's not like doing construction, it's but there's only so much sound insulation that we can do. And so there's like, you know, it's because they're making Roberta's pizzeria here even better than it was before. That's why. so it's worth it. Second question, Chris, has, is if you put pineapple in an EC with alcohol and charged it, would you get both flavored alcohol and alcohol
+
+[31:37] infused, fruit similar to using a vacuum machine, I have tried it, we've done it, and yes, you do get some infusion into the pineapple itself. I don't know that it's, I have to redo it again. It works. I don't think it's maybe as effective at getting the stuff into the pineapple as the vacuum machine, but it's pretty close. Like it does actually work. And in fact, I'll probably be demoing that tomorrow. The caveat is you want to make sure that you use nitrous so that the pineapple doesn't taste carbonated. And I think you're gonna boil more of the liquor out when it bubbles out than you would using a vacuum.
+
+[32:10] So I think the vacuum gets a stronger infusion into the pineapple. Pineapple is also interesting because a lot of its aroma, once it's extracted, is very fleeting. especially in distillations and things like that. So you're going to want to probably, you know, balance. Like, I wouldn't keep pineapple for a long, long time, even though people do. I think it like loses some of its good aroma. But I hope this hope that helps. Okay, Teddy DeVico wrote in and he said, what are your thoughts on getting the sous vide supreme? Is it as accurate as an immersion circulator? Thanks. No. No, it is not. The sous vide supreme. Another little gripe you've heard me say before. Sous vide is cooking in a vacuum environment in a vacuum bag and seal thing using a vacuum machine. Sous vide Supreme has nothing to do with sous vide. Sous vide Supreme is a low temperature cooker that's basically a non-stirred water bath, non-stirred water
+
+[32:56] bath, have limits of accuracy because they're not stirred, right? I'm not saying it's a bad piece of equipment, but I'm saying that there are limits to its fundamental
+
+[33:04] accuracy and over very long periods of time, it probably gets a fairly accurate result. If you don't stir and you leave it. I mean, if you just leave it sit, it'll probably equalize over a long period of time. But in general cooking, I would say there's not going to be nearly as even or accurate as an immersion circulator, which is typically good to a couple tenths of a degree across the entire bath.
+
+[33:22] So, also, immersion circulators are a lot, they can, they can do various different sizes and they take up less space in the kitchen. The Souviet Supreme. I realize is a couple $100 less than a circulator, but if I was going to get one, I would save up the couple 100 extra dollars and get an immersion circulator. I would personally, and I shouldn't ever say this, I would rather have like my own, like, DIY, like, you know, home ghetto
+
+[33:46] circulator than the Supreme. But that's me. That's me. Don't take this. I'm sorry, I apologize. It not a bad product. I'm just saying that I'm very pro circulation. Another thing you might want to do is put an aquarium pump into a sous vide supreme and have it
+
+[33:57] circulate and then I think you'd get rid of all of its shortcomings. That's another solution. That's like a $25 solution problem. Oh, we have a caller. Caller you were on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Roughly Shockingford. How are you? Hey, doing all right. I'm glad to hear that. I got a question for you. I'm illegally distilling alcohol. Good. Yeah, but, you know, when I saw it, when I originally was directed to cooking.com,
+
+[34:22] I found a kindred spirit in you. So, what I want to know is, I want to do a Dr. Pepper infusion, because as we all know, Dr. Pepper is the champagne and beverages. Yeah, it's not, yeah, champagne. We got to think of another. It has champagne for my favorite beers. We got to come, we need like some sort of sham soda term. Yeah, Dr. Pepper, good product. Okay. Dr. Pepper is the preferred drink of the booth at Heritage radio network as well. Wow. Sorry to hear. Yeah. So, okay, so what do you want to infuse with Dr. Pepper? I just make basically a neutral grain spirit. That's all I distill right now. And it comes in around like 45, 50%, and I wanted to just, I bought an ISI, and I wanted to infuse Dr. Pepper flavors into booze.
+
+[35:06] Well, okay. Well, I mean, the problem is like a liquid liquid. you know what you should do is just buy Dr. Pepper syrup. Yeah, you should, like, like, you should just, like, I don't know whether you can, like, uh, Dr. Pepper, I, is that Coke or Pepsi? I think it's actually like a, it's not owned by either of them. like a Nestle or something. Right, but they locally, they always go through a, you know, in other words, like even if you're an independent locally, you either go through a Coke distributor or a Pepsi distributor for your bottling. So like, like you, anyway, my point is if it's ever on tap anywhere, which it is, right? It means you can buy the syrup in a bag in box situation. And so those syrups are typically very high bricks because they're mixed in low quantity so that you can get many, many, many gallons out of it. And then you could just do the real deal. You know what I mean? So you're talking adding, you know, like a very small percentage of product. So you could still, you could make a straight up Dr. Pepper, you know,
+
+[36:06] booze and not take it, you know, below uh, below 40%. If you're starting with, if you're starting with 50, you could take it not below 40 and have straight up Dr. Pepper
+
+[36:15] liquor. You know, and then carbonated. would be possible to thin the Dr. Pepper syrup through a centipede to like clarify it or no, that one more.
+
+[36:24] Well, okay, so, so, okay, so it's an interesting question. So clarification, right? Typically, clarifying is just going to get rid of stuff that makes it not light not pass through it. Dr. Pepper, the only reason light doesn't pass through it is because it's so concentrated. Like everything is actually in solution there. you know what I mean? So, like, if you want it clear, right? the, the, then you'd have to, I mean, the problem is, is that like the sugars wouldn't come through and like some of the bittering agents wouldn't come
+
+[36:52] through. So if you redistilled Dr. Pepper, all you get is kind of the aroma. You know what I'm saying? which isn't necessarily which isn't necessarily what you want. Another thing we could do. I don't really know the recipe, although I know it has prunes in it, which is
+
+[37:06] why like the fake ones are called like Dr. Thunder. Uh, you know what I mean? you know, reference to your butt, I guess. But the, but the, but I don't know the actual recipe of Dr. Pepper, but I'm sure this is something that is like a
+
+[37:20] known like thing on the internet that we can look it up. And then if we figure out what the flavor profile is, Well, then you could start doing distillations with the aroma components of
+
+[37:29] it and then try to mimic like the sugar acid balance of something like, for instance, in the prune and get it get it to come across. And then you could use something that's like less color. Also, there are white prunes, right? So if you're going to use a prune, like, most prunes are purple, because most plums that are made into prunes are purple, but there are white plums that are made into prunes,
+
+[37:49] you can't get them commercially. I think there's some French ones. They were stretching my memory a lot, but I believe like Brignol prunes can be white. I'm not sure. But anyway, so you can get that kind of dried fruit flavor and you can add some kind of plum essence back to it to get a plummy thing in a clearer liquid if you start from 1st
+
+[38:07] principles. But then you're going down a much longer road, rather than if you just want like straight up fast delicious, you get yourself some liquor, and you get yourself some Dr. Pepper syrup,
+
+[38:17] and, you know, you water it to whatever level, you want to drink it at, and then, and then carbonate it, and then you're good to go. I mean, that's like a one that's like a one day problem. Do you know what I mean? I will send you a bottle once it's all made. We appreciate it. We appreciate it. Thanks for Thanks for calling in. One another question. All right. what your favorite Simpsons episode was. Wow, you know, I haven't watched The Simpsons in a, I appreciate the 1st non-cooking question. I haven't watched The Simpsons in a long time, a long time because I used to watch it faithfully. And there are so many good ones to choose from. The one where the pig is flying through the air and Homer says it's still good, it's still good, it's still good, comes to
+
+[38:54] mind. The vegetarian. Yeah, that's a that's a good one. The, the, when, uh, you know, when Krusty, uh, went to jail the 1st time around. That was an amazing, amazing episode, like the itchy and scratchy, the itchy and scratchy censorship one, the
+
+[39:11] flag burning one. I mean, there's so many. so hard to choose. Think about it for a while. I'll listen next week. All right, I'll put some good thinking into that one. All right, Dave, thanks a lot. All right, thanks for calling. All right. So we see we can ritzer some more questions before we're done. Sure. Jack, we have a couple minutes here. Can I rip through some of these questions? And Jackie, you've never given me a Dr. Pepper in the studio? Wow, she's calling you out. Calling you out. Also, Dr. Pepper, for those of you there diet drinkers, a good diet flavor. Look, you know what? Nastache is sitting here crinkling up her nose. Look, people who drink diet sodas, right? And I grew up drinking. I realize everyone's going to hate me now. I got to drink diet. Listen, it's like people who drink diet sodas, right? We don't drink just one. Like, people who, like, have sugar full sodas, like, I need a little bit of a boost. You know what I mean? People drink giant sodas, they don't drink water, right? All they drink is diet soda. So they need to pound a bunch of these things to stay hydrated, right? That used to be me. Now I drink exclusively seltzer, right? So I don't drink really soda that much anymore because I drink exclusively seltzer, but realize that your diet soda drinking friends and neighbors are using it as a hydration technique, not as
+
+[40:15] a, like, I need a little bit of sugar. So, you know, and if you're buying for a party, right? Never let a sugar soda drink or buy soda for a party. They're always wrong. This is why, at the end of the night, there's no diet coke left, and there's 8000 bottles of coke left at the end of the party. Why? Yes, you have no idea what you're talking about. Look, a diet soda drinker goes over and locates their 2 liter bottle, right? And then they drink it, right? Whereas you have like a cup of coke. Like, mark my words, let diet soda drinkers buy the non-alcoholic products for your party.
+
+[40:49] All right, hold on a second. I got, um, I got another question from, um, I got a question from Jacob. And he had a question about a tabletop vacuum sealer, but Jacob, I'm going to answer this question next week because I didn't have time to research the one that you put onto
+
+[41:05] the, onto the emails emails. So I'll try and research that. A lot of people are interested in lower priced vacuum machines because kind of the entry-level price for a real vacuum machine is in and around
+
+[41:17] $1,500 and there's a wealth of new ones out there that are 3 and $400. And the question is, are they any dang good? The answer is, I have no idea, because I haven't used them, but I'd like to look at the specs and see whether they're any good. I mean, it would be great. Like, my life would be really cool if, like, I had the money to go buy all this equipment and test it for for you guys. I don't, you know what I mean? I don't have access to it because one thing I am good at, Nastasia, right, is putting equipment through its paces. Yes or no. Yes. Okay. And one last question also from Teddy DeVico is, he recently got a Twist and Sparkle, which is a new carbonation unit from EC. It carbonates liquid, and he says, it's used in drinks, but why not savory things such as sauces or broths? Have you carbonated any sauces or broth or other savory liquids? And, uh, yes, but, you know, the issues are, one, the sauce has to be good served cold because when you heat it, you're going to lose a lot of the
+
+[42:15] carbonation. And it has to taste good carbonated, which means it has to taste good with CO2.
+
+[42:20] A lot of times with savory dishes, when things have CO2 in them, they start tasting like they're a little bit fermented. So you have to watch out for that. I would do a quick test just by, you know, like doing 50-50
+
+[42:30] with, uh, I mean, if you have the eyesight, twist a sparkle, just try it. The rules are, make sure it's cold, make sure it doesn't have, if it has any, like, milk in it, you're done, it's going to foam over and spray all over your house. If you if you have particles in it, then it's going to foam up and spray all over your house. Um, so it needs to be clear. Otherwise you're going to run into real problems. But other than that, the only rules are keep it cold and does it taste good. And that's basically like a general good rule for life, right? Well, for carbonating. Keep it keep the temperature where it wants to be. And what? said it's a good rule for life. Good rule for life. Yeah. Yes, I'm not going to get into it on the air. Anyway, so this then has been cooking issues. Come back, visit us next week. Tuesday this time. Vicious fish vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. 20 minutes late. Enhance your CTE programs with AP and the college credited offers. New AP career Kickstart courses are now available for high schools to adopt for the 2026 2027 school year. Help your students kickstart their careers with AP's cybersecurity or AP business with personal finance. Learn more at careerkickstart.org.
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+[0:00] I'm Sam Edwards. I'm 3rd generation Cure Master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause of what they're doing. They're supporting family raised livestock, small family farms, certified humane, pasture raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon, sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or VirginiaTraditions.com.
+
+[0:48] Fishes, fish, vodka Oh, you did that Got
+
+[0:58] me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Hello. Welcome to Cooking Issues from the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here with Nastasia. The Hammer Lopez, the hammer of cooking issues. Here to set me straight, keep me honest. Call in all of your cooking related questions. Two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:33] So today's show is brought to you by Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards Corporation. I have actually a little story to relate about that. I was coming home from Thanksgiving. You know, I take the train from my mom's house in Westchester, just north of New York, down to Grand Central, stopped at the Murray's
+
+[1:50] cheese shop, and saw what might be the best marbled ham I've ever seen produced by an American
+
+[1:55] corporation. And it was one of Sam Edwards's one of his hams. And I took it home. It was incredibly delicious. I've noticed Sam Edwards for several years, actually, because I've been kind of a ham nut for a long time. So a couple of problems with the ham. It's not marketed under his actual brand name. It's marketed as Surrey Farms, and I don't really Surrey Farms. I never knew. So if you go to Murray's cheese in New York or you see something marketed as Surrey Farms, it's actually an
+
+[2:26] S. Wallace Edwards hand. And then I emailed him. I was like, well what's the deal? I've never seen an American ham that's, you know, so well marbled. And he told me that he was actually getting the pigs from Patrick here at Heritage
+
+[2:39] Foods. What do you think about that, Nastasia? It's pretty cool, right? Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so a delicious product. We fully support Sam Edwards and his attempt to, because I've always said,
+
+[2:50] I think I've talked about it on this program before, that American ham is delicious, and we have our own traditions, and, you know, there's
+
+[2:58] no, there's no reason that Americans should try to pretend to be something else. We have our own delicious country ham, and we have for 100s and 100s of years. It's a unique cultural product. So I'm a huge supporter of it. My one gripe has always been that, although our cure masters are as good as any cure masters in the world. And by the way, we're still in the construction zone here, Roberta's Pizzeria. So if you hear any hammer drilling in the background, No one is attempting to break into the studio or murder us. It's just normal construction going on. Anyway, so I've always said that one of the main problems isn't the cure masters themselves or the techniques they use, but the quality of pork available to most ham cures here in the US as opposed to those available to, let's say, the
+
+[3:39] Spanish. And so Sam Edwards, as well as Edwards, is trying to change that, partially by getting some material from Patrick at Heritage Foods, the founder of our radio network. So anyway, so kudos to Sam Edwards. Now, on to cooking issues proper. So, some of you who listen to the show regularly might remember that several weeks ago, maybe even a month ago now, I issued a
+
+[4:03] challenge, that if someone could produce a raw chocolate bar that didn't make me want to throw up when I ate it, that even remotely resembled real
+
+[4:13] chocolate, or, you know, tasted good, that I would eat raw food for a
+
+[4:18] week. Well, I have an update to that challenge. But before I get to that update, we have a caller discussion, we have a caller. All right, call her. on the air. Hi, dude. Howdy. This is Colin Gore down in Washington, DC. And yeah, I had a, I guess, not exactly cooking related. I mean, you know, in the aura of cooking, but not directly related question this time. I'm actually in a PhD program in
+
+[4:47] material science department at University of Maryland. Nice. And we are building a seminar series for the upcoming semester.
+
+[4:55] And, uh, I was wondering if you knew had any contacts at PIC
+
+[5:02] gums, because I'm interested in trying to get someone from
+
+[5:06] there. to talk, uh, to us, give a kind of presentation that's a little science sick, but also kind of cool and interesting. All right. Well, TIC comes. For those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, TIC Gums is a major manufacturer of hydrocoloids,
+
+[5:24] which again, for those of you who still don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Hydrocolloids are a group of kind of thickeners and gelling agents that in the past were used almost exclusively by industrial concerns to make foods
+
+[5:37] cheaper or ship better or last longer when they're frozen, et cetera, et cetera. But in the past 10 years or so have really been used by chefs to try and either achieve special effects or increased quality.
+
+[5:48] So there's been a major shift in these ingredients from being seen as additives to being seen as legitimate ingredients in high
+
+[5:55] cuisine. So TIC Gums is a major manufacturer of this and their headquarters is in Maryland somewhere. I think it's somewhere near Beltsville, right? Or are they in Pennsylvania? I always forget. Yeah, anyway, they're... They're in Maryland a little bit, a little bit northwest of northeast of Baltimore. Oh, yeah. And I'm supposed to have been visited. I was supposed to visit there many times. My main and what's interesting about them also, for those of you listening out there, they will sell to individuals. They're one of the few manufacturers that for some reason takes an interest in this and they have what's called, or at least they used to, a chef's kit that you could buy stuff from them. And so, and it's TIC gums, and you can go to the, the unfortunate thing about TIC gums, is that all of their products have horrific
+
+[6:37] names, like saladizer, 210 S, and tickaloid, and, you know, all these, all these like horrible sounding, they sound like parasites,
+
+[6:45] diseases and insects. But they make really good products. The other thing about them is that they are, they're a blender. They are a gum blender, a solution provider. So they don't provide straight up raw materials the way, let's say, Dow chemical would. They blend their own proprietary mixtures and their own sources, and they sell them, so they won't tell you exactly what's in their mixture, which is the other interesting thing. The main thing with, and I'm going to answer your question. I'm just explained to everyone else who doesn't know what TSC comes is. The TIC gums. The one we use most is a product called saladizer, either the 210 S or the 310 S. And this is something actually that anyone should have around their house. It's a mixture of gum Arabic, and Xanthan gum, both natural ingredients. And it's a fantastic at stabilizing, you know, emulsions. oil, water emulsions for later to dilute later. So we use it to make simple syrups with oils and fats in them, salad dressings, sauces. It's fantastic stuff. It goes in cold. It's really easy to use. It's not too you know, finicky. So that's the part of theirs we use the most. Now the downside. I no longer have a real contact on the east coast, my old contacts got reefer moved to be the west coast and Asia rep for TIC gums.
+
+[7:55] But they have a hotline called gum guru. And if you email us, I will try to remember, although if anyone's ever met me, I'm horrible at email, but they're all really nice people down
+
+[8:06] there and I'm sure they'd be happy if you find, I don't have his contact info anymore. But if you call Scott, uh, Reefler out on the west coast, he might say who, because he's a really good guy and interesting, he used to give the culinary talks on the east coast. So if you contact him, he might know who his current, you know, incarnation on the
+
+[8:23] east coast would be because it would be an easy, easy trip for them. But yeah, TIC gums, good people. Yeah, all right. Thanks a lot. No problem. Yeah, so if you need any more help, again, contact us. Most likely a question on the blog is the best way to get a response because that's the only thing I'm kind of guaranteed to respond to, but, you know,
+
+[8:40] they're good people and I'm sure they'll respond. And actually, for those of you out there who have gum questions, like, they're one of the few companies that if you ask them for a problem to, you know, a solution to a particular problem, like, I have X, Y, Z salad dressing, it has these
+
+[8:56] situations, which product do you recommend? They will unlike most companies, they will actually get back to you with an answer. They have a what's it called? system called gum guru on their TIC gums website. So it's a good place to go, a good resource, and fine people. All right. Well, thanks for your question. Okay, now back to the raw food, raw food challenge. So what I said was, is that if someone could produce a raw food, a raw chocolate that was even remotely delicious at all, really that didn't leave a bad aftertaste in my mouth, that I would eat raw
+
+[9:31] food exclusively for a week. Now, Nastasia is here, not just to hammer on you people, but to, although she never actually does that. But to keep me honest. And one of my interns, Grace, who's actually has her final today, she's going to graduate to French culinary. We're going to lose another fine intern. Actually, several. We're losing Piper as well, another fine intern. She brought some, you remember the brand name, Nastasha? No, I don't remember. Some raw. like, you know, it comes in some sort of craft paper, crunchy label thing from Whole Foods market and it costs like a $1000 a bar or something like that. But I ate it and I wasn't revolted, right? Right. So it looks like I might have to actually do this because if there's if there's anything on Earth, I hate. It's a welcher, right? You know, someone who welches on bets, you know, you could be a serial killer. I could find something redeeming about you, but someone who welches on, that's not really true. If someone who welches on bets is like, you know, that's like the worst thing in the world, right? It's terrible, right? For you, yeah. Well, for you too, no? You like a welcher? I don't like it doesn't occur to me. What? I haven't dealt with a lot of them. It's because they're universally reviled and hated. anyway. So I can't welsh on this. So now, I had a couple of outs. I gave myself a couple of outs in this bet because I said that not only, yes, I did, if you will remember, I said not only does it have to be delicious, but it has to actually be raw, and there is a lot
+
+[10:56] of research, there are a lot of people out there who basically say there is no such thing as raw, as raw cocoa beans, because of the processing that they go through on the way they all go above this kind of magic temperature of 108 degrees Fahrenheit, where all enzymes are supposed to be destroyed.
+
+[11:10] Before I go on, a little rant about that. Not all enzymes are, 1st of all, there are enzymes that are destroyed below 118, and there are many, many enzymes that last
+
+[11:18] well, well, well, well, well above 118 degrees Fahrenheit. And how fast an enzyme is denatured is not only a function of temperature, but a function of temperature and time? So to think there's some sort of magic brick wall at 118 degrees Fahrenheit, where no enzymes can pass through that brick wall is absurd. I mean, beyond absurd, ridiculous. How much basis in science? Zero, 00 basis in science. Now, that's one thing about raw food. Second thing about it is, I don't know why enzymes, like, why should I preserve an enzyme
+
+[11:49] in in a food. I have not seen a paper yet that tells me what the benefit is of preserving all the enzymes. I'm willing to be proven wrong on this, like anything else. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Um, but, you know, 1st of all, a lot of enzymes are going to be deactivated in the gut anyway. Not all of them, but many of them are going to be deactivated in the gut. Many enzymes are bad. You know, they do damaging things, too. Not all enzymes are little beneficent proteins that are like wandering around your body only fixing things that went wrong. So I don't understand really the whole premise behind raw food either. But that is not that is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is, I said that I would do it. And I know many fine people that, that's like the, the, the 1st, the 1st defense of a prejudiced person, right? I know many fine raw food people. But anyway, it's true. I know many fine raw food people. But I promised I'd do it, so I will. Um, now, but I have to, to research it. Oh, the out, the out. Sorry. So, yeah, chocolate turns out that 99% of the, according to the data that I could gather, which may or may not be true,
+
+[12:56] you know, 99% of the stuff labeled raw chocolate, in markets, in food markets, is, in fact, not raw, because there is almost no one out there with processing equipment to actually produce the cocoa
+
+[13:10] butter. So even if you obtained raw, completely raw, like controlled
+
+[13:14] fermentation, so the fermentation never went above 118, which is possible, you know, although not likely, but possible, and never been roasted, so it's not going to develop any of the roasted flavors that you would get. To make chocolate, you'd have to express cocoa butter to add cocoa butter back
+
+[13:28] to, even if you were using just grinding raw nibs. You'd have to add cocoa butter back to it to get the chocolate consistency. And the cocoa butter that's pressed is pressed in such a way that the temperature basically, you know, has to get above, uh, you know, 118 degrees Fahrenheit using the equipment that's out there. So most people who are providing, you know, these products to the raw food manufacturers probably are misrepresenting what
+
+[13:53] they're what they're providing. And this is the data that I've been able to gather on the internet. there's an interesting guy by the name of Ben Ripple. Ben Ripple has a thing called Big Tree Farms out in Bali. And I've seen him present a couple times. I met him, although he would never remember this at a taste three, which is an event that, you know, the Mondavi that Ted conferences used to have along with, you know, with Mondavi. And I spoke at it a couple times, and Ben Ripple spoke at it. And his deal is, is he wants, he goes to poor farmers in Bali and other, you know, places over there and wants to get them some money for their
+
+[14:26] product. And so as far as I can tell, he doesn't really care so much personally about raw food, but he sees it as a niche market where he
+
+[14:33] can all of a sudden raise the value of these products that as farmers are producing by producing a very specialty product for a very niche
+
+[14:40] market where he's not competing with bigger growers or, you know, bigger countries, bigger industrial concerns.
+
+[14:45] So he's been a supplier of raw cashews for a long time, true raw cashews. And he spent a lot of time and energy trying to produce a true raw chocolate. So apparently if you get your cocoa products from uh, big tree farms, which has Ben Ripple's corporation, you have a guaranteed certified
+
+[15:00] uh, raw product, I don't know what the heck the price is, apparently it's a lot, lot higher, then most of the raw uh, raw, you know, chocolate products that are out there. And I think he's a raw, you know, he supplies 2 manufacturers. But so anyway, I don't know whether the one I got was real or not, but it's weak to try and get out of it just by saying that it probably wasn't actually a raw chocolate.
+
+[15:18] So we're going to do it, which means that I won't be eating the family meal at the French culinary. Well, me and my family because who else cooks at my house? Yeah, nobody. Now, here's the thing. Now, do we have a, uh, here's, do I follow raw food just based on a 118, in which case I can have sashimi, right? Or, I mean, most raw food people are also like vegio vegan style folk, right? Now, if I, what I'm saying is that to be raw food doesn't necessarily mean I have to go vegetarian, right?
+
+[15:52] I mean, not that I could go vegetarian vegetarian for a week is not a problem. Vegan for week might be a problem. The problem is, is I'd have to find unpasteurized milk and you can't, it's hard to buy it here in New York. If you can get to, there's certain farms. You can buy direct from farms, but here in New York City, it's difficult to get unpasteurized milk, so I couldn't have unpasteurized milk. But, I mean, I don't see any reason why I sashimi, right? Nastasia. Do you see any reason? No. Or Carpaccio. I can't have Parmesan with my Carpaccio, though, because they occurred from Parmesan cheese is cooked to a higher temperature than 118 Fahrenheit during the
+
+[16:25] curting process. So I couldn't have Parmesan with my carpaccio, which might ruin it for
+
+[16:30] me because really that's the taste of carpaccio anyways, it's the Parmesan and the olive oil. So also, so that's the 1st question. Do I follow their rules or just the 118 degree rule? That's the 1st question I have to figure out. The 2nd thing is going to have to plan this for a long time because I'm definitely not going to buy any BS raw food product off the shelf that's just some hyper-processed crap that
+
+[16:50] has like not doesn't have a good taste where the only criteria for its manufacturer was that it had never been heated because
+
+[16:56] I hate products like that. I'm also not going to have any substitute products, no, you know, raw food product, pretending to be something that's cooked, right? The challenge is, can I make everything truly freaking delicious, right?
+
+[17:09] Truly delicious, and also raw, and wanting to be what it is instead of an imitation of something else. That's the real challenge. So it's going to probably take me a month or so to figure out a good week's worth of recipes, learn a whole bunch of techniques.
+
+[17:21] I'm going to have to read every raw food cookbook there is. Um, you know, I've read Sarma's, uh, one of Sarma, Melangias's cookbooks. you know, she's nice. She nice. Maybe I can call her and ask for some advice if she'll still talk to me because I was supposed to help her with a bunch of dehydrator projects she was working on and we never got back to her. Remember that, Nastasia? Yes. Yeah. So if she'll still if she'll still take my calls, I'll call her and try and uh, and try and work on that. But I'm going to shoot for a goal somewhere in probably February or something,
+
+[17:50] you know, since that's such a crappy month anyway. We'll do a raw food. We'll do a raw food week. Nastash, are you going to eat any of this or no? Sure, I'll do it with you if it happens. Really? if it happens. What do you mean if it happens? You calling me a welcher? Yes. Jeez. I just told you that the worst thing in the world is a welcher. Anyway, all right. So we're going to go to our 1st commercial break, but call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You'll feel good. It's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name, I don't want people to know you're in, yeah. How you feel, fella? Hey, yeah. You're getting done. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[19:00] All right. I want to do it again. He wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, let's go on that. Gotta take you home.
+
+[19:10] Brother? Now, I won't everybody, let bread flow in my two courses. And welcome back to Cooking Issues, Dave Arnold, coast of cooking issues along with Sasha Lopez, here from
+
+[19:25] Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Have a question in from Paul says, hi, Dave. It's well known that baking soda can be used to speed up my art reactions in browning. Is this just about pHs or something else at work? And then, is there anything that can be used to slow down such reactions? MyR reactions? For reasons not worth going into? I'd like to be able to keep simple broths and soups safely warm for up to 18 hours. Naturally, they begin to deteriorate after this long, especially those with vibrant vegetable colors. Any tips or suggestions of something I could throw in? Thanks, Paul. Now, I'm going to have to break this down a little bit. And, you know, I know, Paul, you probably don't have the time to call in during the show, but this is something I'd really like to kind of figure out exactly
+
+[20:11] what you mean here. My art reactions, right, are the Browning reactions that are, you know, that typically go on. They're very complicated, but they have to do with reducing sugar, certain kinds of sugars in proteins, usually in the,
+
+[20:26] well, always in the presence, not always, but usually in the presence of heat, right? Typically higher heats. So we associate kind of toasty brown bread, you know, bread flavors, brown flavors, cooked flavors, and a lot of the flavors on the outside of roasted meats and things like
+
+[20:39] that are Mayard style flavors, right? And, you know, the brown on French fries, the crispy skin, all that. These are things we associate with Meyern. These reactions are indeed speeded up by the addition of alkaline ingredients. So, for instance, pretzels, famously pretzels are cooked in alkaline
+
+[20:56] water before they're baked to increase the browning in them, and they also give a characteristic kind of alkaline taste. Now, also egg whites will brown if cooked for a long time, even though they're not cooked at a very, very high temperature because egg whites are alkaline, so that
+
+[21:13] Mayard reactions speed it up in it. That's the, you know, the thing behind hamming eggs. These eggs that are cooked for a long time and turn brown. And so at the school, you know, we do a lot of cooking with eggs and pressure cookers and the eggs turn brown because of myard reactions. So yes, basic conditions, alkaline conditions, which baking soda will produce do speed up browning reactions. Now, that's not the same browning reaction that happens in
+
+[21:36] a in a vegetable soup. So if you're doing a broth with vegetables in it. I presume you mean green vegetables, right? Green vegetables we're talking about. So if you're doing like a vibrant green vegetable color, those, right, are not broken down because of
+
+[21:50] myard reactions, right? So like an herb, a blended herb, for instance, is breaking down because of an enzymatic reaction. So you can stop those things from going brown, initially by destroying the enzymes. Now, the, the, the problem is, is that then further browning, uh, and kind of olive dravenous takes on because the chlorophyll in those vegetables is being destroyed, because there's, there's a
+
+[22:11] magnesium uh, that's inside of the chlorophyll, the magnesium gets displaced by a hydrogen ion,
+
+[22:16] usually uh, in the presence of an acid, right, or over long, you know, long cooking times, and that causes the chlorophyll to
+
+[22:23] brown, and you lose the vibrancy of the color, right? So I'm trying to figure out exactly which, you know, which one of these reactions you're worried about. Now, adding something basic, like, uh, like, you know, baking soda or something to a green vegetable broth or
+
+[22:37] puree should preserve the chlorophyll. Now, one of the reasons not to add, you know, you know, baking soda to, if you're cooking, let's say, green beans or broccoli to the water, one of the reasons against it is because although the green is going to be very well preserved, because the magnesium's not going to get displaced from the chlorophyll, is that they go mushy very, very quickly, because the other effect that's going on is that the cell walls of these vegetables are made up of pectin and hemicellulose and the pectin, right,
+
+[23:06] is very resistant to breaking down, uh, in alkaline in acid conditions, but breaks down very, very readily in alkaline conditions. So you add baking soda to water and you get very green, mushy vegetables. You add acid to the cooking water, and you get olive drab, very, you know, firm vegetables. So it's like you can't win. But if you're doing a puree, right, then you don't care about the fact that it's going to be mushy because you're going to puree the sucker anyway. So you might as well add a pinch of baking soda. You just gotta make sure that you don't get any off taste. And this should help preserve the green color for a lot longer. Now, also the other thing is that if you store your soups at a lower temperature, you should be able to preserve the color faster.
+
+[23:52] Now, I haven't done any controlled test of storing a broth that's
+
+[23:56] not, not a chlorophyll based broth. I haven't really done a control test on any of this. This is just off the top of my head, but it would be interesting to do
+
+[24:04] a test where we stored just in an open bane, you know, a soup at, you know, 70
+
+[24:14] degrees C, let's say, for 12 hours to see what happened to it. I don't know how much more appreciable browning you would get. Other than maybe you're also getting an increased browning during evaporation, like a concentration. I'd have to see. But I'm kind of interested in the problem. So if you email another question into the radio, maybe more specifically like what recipe you're dealing
+
+[24:34] with, and exactly kind of what's going wrong, I'd love to take a look at it, because it seems like an interesting problem, right, Nastasia? So anyway, but let me into another thing is that I did some more research on one of the products that we like to use is stuff called Thai red lime paste. And Thai red lime paste is basically limestone. And I always thought that it was naturally red. And there's been very little up till now that I'm able to find in the way of English language references on this Thai
+
+[24:59] ingredient other than it's used in soups and banana, like this banana soup to preserve this cell wall, the banana. This goes back to the mushiness, right? So, um, so what we do is we use this Thai red line paste, which you can get in an Asian grocery store, you put it into water, you shake it up, it settles out, and you use that water, we vacuum inject it into bananas, and it makes a
+
+[25:19] banana stay firm even when you cook it. So you can make like a bananas foster, but the bananas, they taste cooked and delicious and sweet, but they don't get
+
+[25:26] mushy. And you can also beat the crap out of them in the pan without them breaking apart. So it's one of our favorite recipes. We've been doing it for years. I do it all the time. I love it. Bang, bang, bang, right? But I haven't really found up till now any English language references on it. I always assumed that the stuff was natural, you know, that naturally red, but I
+
+[25:42] found finally an English language blog called She Simmers, and it's written by someone named Lila, but I don't know her last name. And she said that the red is actually turmeric that they add to it, although I don't know if that's true or false. I don't know, but that's what she said. And she also made some interesting points that it's that the tie red
+
+[26:00] line. I hadn't thought about this before, is basically calcium, calcium hydroxide. you know, lime, which is the same stuff that's used for next to almost
+
+[26:09] nixtelamization, right? Which is the, you know, the process used to turn corn into masa and hominy by soaking in an alkaline condition. And I've been wanting to go get cow, which is what they use in Mexico to do this for a long time and we've had it in our fridge the entire, for all these years. We've had the Nixonalizing product in our fridge in the form of Thai red line paste for years and
+
+[26:29] years, and we've never done it. So we're going to have to run our next normalization experiments with the Thai red lime. See what we get out of it. But she also does something very interesting, which is that if you add it to fry batters,
+
+[26:41] right? The fry batter stays crispy after it's been fried for a long time, a lot longer than it would if you just used regular water in the batter.
+
+[26:50] So I'm going to try to do some tempura batters with this Thai red lime and see whether we can get a batter that does indeed blind taste crispier with this versus
+
+[26:59] not, because I was not able to find any papers, any, you know, any scientific papers on adding alkaline ingredients to
+
+[27:06] uh, to batters to try and, you know, increase their crispiness. I wasn't able to find it. So, I don't know. I'm going to do some research. That's something that, you know, could be very, very, very interesting, but, you know, it's more crap we have to do. What do you think, Nastasia? Yes. Good stuff. Good stuff. But this brings me back to the other point about the stuff, this lime, is that being calcium and being hydroxide, it's both alkaline, but has calcium
+
+[27:31] present. And what is calcium due to cell balls? Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. Uh-huh. Calcium strengthens the pectin, right? So in the presence of a lot of calcium, you're going to cross-link
+
+[27:44] the, um, you're going to cross-link the, uh, the pectin in there and it's going to be resistant to breaking down either by heat or anything else. And so what I'm wondering is, if you use calcium hydroxide as your addition to the boiling water, can you get a vegetable that stays green and is also
+
+[28:02] crunchy. So that is another round of experiments we have to run. I was not able to find anything on that either. But now, I only search for half an hour or so, which is part of the reason that I literally ran in here panting with my hands frozen off about 10 seconds before the radio show
+
+[28:16] started much to Nastasia's chagrin. The other reason was I couldn't find any gloves on the way out, and that's why I, you know, my hands, I feel like I could crack them with a hammer and they'd break into tiny little pieces.
+
+[28:25] But, so a lot of interesting experiments were brought up by your question about vegetables and broth and
+
+[28:33] Maillard and keeping things green. Uh, Anyway, uh, since it's uh, it's about time. go to our 2nd commercial break. Call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey Sure, getting down. Look at him! We're gonna have a bunk of good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We've gotta take you high.
+
+[29:30] All right! We'll do it again. You wanna do it again? Gotta take your high. Brother? Yeah Now I want everybody, let bread blow up my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do that within us now, all right. right I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. Now, James, horn on me. Fred, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Fred! Ben!
+
+[30:20] Welcome back to cooking issues. Still time to call in your questions is 718-497-2128 718-497-2128.
+
+[30:32] Uh, so we got a question from Kurt, that he had a question about egg substitute, and
+
+[30:37] uh, he says as his grandparents have gotten older, he started to watch salt, fat, and cholesterol and their diets much more, although I have to tell you, that contrary to health, like if I get old enough, I'm going to eat
+
+[30:45] nothing. Of course, I already eat nothing but fats and all this stuff. Anyway, if I make it to that age. I'm definitely going to start loading up on all the stuff people tell me not to eat. But they've tried to use egg substitute and are generally happy with the result in almonds and scrambled eggs, but less so in baking.
+
+[31:01] Can you tell me more about what is in egg substitute as well as when is appropriate to use instead of egg? Now, the only thing I know much about egg substitutes is egg substitutes,
+
+[31:11] like actual straight up single ingredients that are used as substitute for certain properties and eggs, right? So it looks like you're talking about an egg substitute that can literally be substituted for an egg
+
+[31:20] in like an omelette. I'm more used to dealing with products that are substitutes for eggs. Uh, like in in, in baking where, you know, you say, okay, I have an egg protein that needs to hold something in a specific, you know, way.
+
+[31:33] So like I need to imitate the foaming properties of egg white. Let's say. So then I would say, okay, then I know what to add. I'm going to add some, uh, something like a xanthan for thickening, and I'm going to add some sort of aeration agent, like a methocellulose versus
+
+[31:46] whip, something like that, right? So like that kind of stuff I know about or, you know, Xanthan to hold things together or, you know, either in gluten or an egg replacing recipes. Or, you know, I need something that's going to provide the emulsification of egg yolk. So I'm going to add probably soy less thin or something like that. Like these are, these are things that kind of like understand. Um, but like straight up egg replacer. I don't have a lot of a lot of information off the top of my head. So I'm gonna, but the thing is, do we have a way to actually make sure that I look this up before next week's uh,
+
+[32:16] radio, uh, show or not? You keep the question, yes. So we'll just, we'll pump it over into next week's questions. But it's something I'm interested in looking. I'm trying to figure out like what they could make, you know, that actually looks like an egg on the plate that works like an egg on the
+
+[32:29] plate and why it wouldn't work in baking. So this is something I'm willing to investigate further and deserves more time than I
+
+[32:36] was able to give it this week, Kurt. So I will check up on that. Nastasia will pump that question over onto the next week. Another one I got that was kind of difficult from Scott Colerick, is, um, uh, you know, we talked, I think, a little bit on the Thanksgiving episode about the Dragon's
+
+[32:52] beer candy, the Poshmock, right? Didn't we? Yeah. Yeah. And so in that recipe, you know, this goes to cooking candies. In that recipe, you add acid at the beginning of the recipe, and what happens
+
+[33:04] is, is that the longer it cooks, the acid continues
+
+[33:08] to, what's called invert the sugar. It breaks the sucrose, which is a disaccharide down into 2 monosaccharides. And that reaction is sped up by the presence of acid. So the longer you cook in the presence of acid, the more you break the sugar down into the sucrose down into,
+
+[33:22] you know, glucose and fructose, and that has the, um, those sugars don't harden up the same way
+
+[33:28] when when the sugar cools down when the sugar syrup cools down. And so you end up getting a softer product. The longer it cooks, the softer it is. So, Scott was working for a chocolatier, or is working for a chocolatier, part-time, or as a chocolatier, I should say, and he is told that the faster you cook a caramel to a certain
+
+[33:46] temperature, the softer the product will be. So it's the exact opposite of what we've what we've been, you know, what we have with regular sugar syrups, right? And so he says, I understand that the temperature in candy is a function of boiling water off so that as long as the accurate final temperature is reached,
+
+[34:03] right, the product would be the same. And this is something I think I probably also said on that, on that thing, is that the, because I remember we also had a question on caramels or something like that. And it's true that if you cook to, if if you, if the only ingredients are sugar and water, and this is why maybe if I was talking about caramels last time, I'll have to look it up, you know, I probably spoke too soon, if the only ingredients are sugar and water,
+
+[34:24] right? Then the final temperature is strictly a function of, of, you know, how much water is in there, right? So no matter what, you know, the water content's going to be the same once you reach the final, the final temperature. And that may or may not be true, if other ingredients are in there and changing. So, and so altering the boiling point. Like if things break down and become soluble or no longer soluble, then they
+
+[34:50] will or they will no longer affect the boiling point. I don't know how much that's going to affect the temperature, right? Now, the other problem is, is that there's a lot of stuff in a caramel, there's milk solids, there's fats, there's all these other things, and each one of those, right, affects the final texture of your
+
+[35:05] caramel. And I downloaded a couple scholarly articles, but didn't have a chance to necessarily wade through them. And I'm trying to figure, I was trying to figure out why it is that cooking it for longer is going to make it make it harder. And I haven't found any yet, except for to say that, you know,
+
+[35:25] that the sugar is only the sugar, the sugar and how much it's cooked. There's only one of the things that's affecting the texture. Like something that's going on, as you said, with the milk, milk solids might be a factor, like if you cook the milk solids too quick or they don't get converted enough, that might affect the texture, something going on with the fat, although I doubt it might affect the texture based on that.
+
+[35:45] You know, you had posited that, you know, there was one cook that used to work at this chocolatier where he used to cook very, very
+
+[35:52] quickly and he always had to cook to a higher temperature because his caramels were coming out too hard to, what do you say, too
+
+[35:58] soft. So you needed to cook them. No, sorry, too hard. Anyway, again, I'm getting all, you know, confused. But the, um, the point is, is that I would guess that if you cook it really quickly, you're liable to go to a higher temperature anyway. Uh, you know, I think it would be unusual where cooking something faster means you got to a lower temperature because I would think that you'd have hotter stuff at the bottom and when you
+
+[36:18] pull it, you get a higher rise, but I don't know. So it looks like it's probably a more complex, uh, more complex problem than, you know, than 1st blush looks at. And unfortunately, I would have talked about it with Harold McGee. I spoke to him yesterday, but he's kind of in transit. He's finished up his whirlwind book tour. By the way, Harold McGee has a new book out. called, what's it called? Keys to good cooking, right? Key's a good cooking, was on the New York Times bestseller, Harold McGee, good friend of cooking issues, good friend of the blog, good friend of
+
+[36:45] ours. And so go buy his book. But anyway, next time I speak to him, which is going to be at the end of the week. I'm going to try and ask him about this because it might be something that he researched in, you know, in all of
+
+[36:54] the, uh, all the stuff that he's been doing recently for his book. But it is an interesting question, and you have me a little bit stumped. So anyway, so that is all of the questions for today. And so I want to, uh, this is a personal plea. If any of you out there have good, and going back to the raw food, raw food challenge, if any of you out there have any suggestions for me, should we write this stuff up on the blog as we do it or no? Nastasia doubts that I'm actually gonna do it? Nastasia doesn't think that, but not for the reason that you guys out there. You guys out there in Radioland think I'm a welcher, which means that you think I'm a bad, a poor, a low quality human being is my son. Yeah, no, I don't think you're a welcher. Well, I think you have a lot. Yeah, a lot of stuff to do. Yeah. Okay. Well, look, the fact the matter is, is that it doesn't matter. Like, like, a welcher's a welcher. If you say you're going to do something and you don't, then you're a welcher. It doesn't matter if you're too busy because the same way you're saying, well, I would pay you, but I don't have the money. No, you're a welcher. You made a bet and you couldn't deliver. So we have to do it, right? The question is, are we going to have the time to write about it? That's the that's the thing. But I'd like to write about the experience of trying to go raw food, but we're definitely... Then let me write about the experience. Well, okay, so for those of you out here, there's a little insight into the cooking issues team and why we don't write very often on the blog. And the reason is, is because I'm a huge jerk, right? And so I have an extremely narrow point of view about kind of everything.
+
+[38:35] And so I'm hard to work with when it comes to writing things. This is true or false? That's true. That's true. including with myself. The only person harder on me is my wife, who's maybe one of the great editors. I mean, you know, maybe not as good as her sister, Miley, my sister-in-law, who runs the Food Network magazine, but pretty pretty damn good, my wife is a vicious editor. But aside from stylistically, which I'm horrible at, you know, um, content wise, I'm pretty particular. So, I don't know. What would you want to write about? The experience, well, yeah. Yeah, from my perspective. See, from, well, but like about what? Like it couldn't be... I mean, the recipes, the, you know, day one, day two, day three, how we feel, you know, the difference
+
+[39:20] between... Maybe we should start a separate block because we're not about our feelings. I know, but I think people can. Who cares about our feelings? listen, you guys tell us, but I don't think anyone cares about my personal feelings about anything. think they do. I don't think so. I mean, I don't care about. I hardly care about my personal feelings about things. Why should anyone else? I mean, not feelings. What? You've seen all feelings. seen all feelings. No, the thing is, like, here, look, here's the thing, and this is maybe, I'm going to offend everyone now, probably, but, you know, one of the reasons, you know, I,
+
+[39:48] like the, my whole issue with blogs is, is trying to, like, strike this balance between,
+
+[39:53] um, you know, serving yourself and serving and serving other people. I don't necessarily see the value in saying what what I had for dinner tonight. You know what I mean? Unless it's instructive in some way. Like, I'm not a good enough writer or a good enough photographer where, you know, I could spin a yarn about what I ate tonight and have it be, I think, of any use to anyone.
+
+[40:17] You know what I mean? So the question is, you know, how do we do it without becoming self-indulgent? There has to be some sort of learning process, which means, which is really irritating, is that we're going to have to develop some sort of new technique or ingredient having to do with raw food stuff,
+
+[40:32] Nastasia's now banging her head against a microphone. Because she knows what this means is she's going to have to go through hell because now we're going to have to come up with some fancy new technique, you know,
+
+[40:44] regarding raw foods or something. Is that your worry? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. On top of all. the other stuff. But, you know, if I if I have to language in testing hell for a month, it's much better than being a welcher.
+
+[40:59] This has been cooking issues. We'll come back next week to answer more of your questions.
+
+[41:10] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you did.
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+[0:06] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you
+
+[0:13] did that. Got me on this corner. Hello and welcome to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 to show where we answer all of your cooking related questions. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues, and I'm here with Nastasia. Hey, I remember Lopez. Call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Today's show is being brought to you by Texer for all of your McIntosh related technical needs. They're at www.techserve.com, tech with a K. And they're actually, they're the sponsor, but they're giving away basically their time here to talk about the
+
+[0:58] lower East Side ecology center. And the Lower East side ecology center is having its 8th annual after the holidays e-waste event with 10 events in January, and to find out where and when, you know, when they are, they're on the Lower East side, which is where I live, go to
+
+[1:13] L-E-S, that's like Lower East side, ecologycenter.org. And they're going to help, you know, put good use to all the equipment that you're going to throw away after you get your new
+
+[1:24] equipment after the holidays, right, Nastasia, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, by the way, it came to me through the grapevine that some listeners of the show believe that
+
+[1:36] I somehow prevent Nastasia from speaking on the radio. In fact, this is not the case. I want all of your readers to know that I would be happy to have Nastasia speak more on the radio. It's that she particularly does not want me to make her speak on the radio. So I might make her do some today, just to prove that I am not purposely trying to hog all of the all of the airtime. You know, you don't really, those of you out there probably don't really know Nastasia that well. She likes to be kind of the puppet master person in the background, you know, manipulating dials and wheels, doesn't like so much to speak. Believe me. Believe me, when we are not on the radio, she more than makes up for speaking her
+
+[2:18] mind. All right? I'll just put it that way. What do you think, Nastasia? Any comments? Yes that's true. Yeah? All right. Well, in the light of trying to get you to say more, we had an email response. By the way, for those of you that didn't listen last time or anytime, you know, we
+
+[2:32] are, uh, you know, basically a meat eating, uh, folk, we're immediating crew. I lost a bet about that, you know, someone couldn't produce any raw chocolate that I would find even remotely
+
+[2:44] palatable. I lost this bet. And as a result, I'm going to have to, uh, Nostasia decided to join me, although she doesn't have to. I'm going to cook and eat, well, cook. I'm going to prepare and eat a raw, you know, raw food diet for a week, probably sometime in late January or February. Now, last week, I had said that maybe I would just do, you know, I could eat like raw fish. raw, right? Technically raw. And then someone emailed us, you know, a response to that, basically calling us giant sissies. More me, because Nastasia hadn't said anything, because, of course, I never allow her to speak. So you want to read the read the email there. This comes from Pablo Escobar. The cooking issues team. I think you should go raw vegan because one, the raw chocolate bar you ate was mostly like most most likely raw vegan too. It's typically what it meant by raw foods. Three, it would be awesome to see how you innovate inside of these constraints for a diet where you can eat raw meat and fish for a week just doesn't sound that hard. That's it, right? And he had the one request. Right. And as far as the writing goes, I think if you do make it about personal experience, my only advice
+
+[3:52] is, don't make it sound too much like a post-apocalyptic survivor story.
+
+[3:57] Well, Pablo, if we don't make it sound like a post apocalyptic survivor story, it won't be like any other day in our lives. It's getting like every day for us is basically a survival story in the tech hole. You had to visit us sometime, Pablo. And see, we literally live in kind of a small closet
+
+[4:15] hole with no windows. We don't, like, the entire world could have crumbled around us. And all we'll know is like the piled up mass of junk and equipment that
+
+[4:23] we live in in this tiny closet. So our normal lives, you know, you know, is basically that post-apocalyptic problem. So it won't have anything to do with the raw food, but it might have that tone anyway, right? Nastasia? Well, he also says he tried to do it for a week, and it's pretty hard, especially New York in winter. Oh, because you can't get the good, the good fruits and whatnot? Well, we could do it. It will do it. You know, it's just going to take a lot, a lot of research, and that's the reason I have to put it off for so long,
+
+[4:49] is I'm going to have to read, you know, basically every book I can find on the subject, because that's, you know, that's the way that's the way I roll. Nostasia's rolling her eyes because she knows it's going to be a huge pain in her behind. But I agree with you, Paul, Pablo, rather. and sorry. And we will do it. We will do raw vegan because you're correct. It's more of a challenge, and why not take on the challenge? I told my wife this last night. She's like, I'm not eating raw. not eating raw food. And you know, for a week. And I said, well, what are you going to do about it? I'm the only person that cooks in the whole house or prepares food. I keep on saying cookie. You know what I mean? So like she's kind of like, other than when she's at work, she has no choice, really. Right? So she's going to do it. Well, I mean, I don't understand her choices. Well, pizza. Order pizza and not eat what I'm eating. I say the most, see, here's the thing, right? Food is all about being social. So if you, you know, like eating something separate from what my family is eating is kind of the worst idea in the world. I would rather eat nothing and go on a Gandhi fast than prepare something separate for myself and the rest of my family. Like the whole point of eating with your family is you eat together, not a bunch of separate micro meals, you know, that, you know,
+
+[6:01] that doesn't make any sense. Anyway, so yes, she's gonna she's gonna eat raw food with me for a week and she'll probably stock up on hamburgers or whatnot when she's at work.
+
+[6:09] Okay. I had a question last week that I did not answer on eggs. And the question was, what is in egg substitutes and because, you know, he was having some problems with baking, using the egg substitutes for baking. So I did some research on it. And there's basically 2 different classes of egg
+
+[6:30] substitute. The one, which I think is the one you're using, if you're actually using it to make omelettes, is more like it's called like egg beaters, things like that. And they're not really 100% egg substitute. They're not typically vegan. They're egg whites, and then they add flavoring and
+
+[6:44] coloring and some other functional stuff to make it act more like an egg when you're scrambling it. So what's in the egg beaters. It 99% egg white, apparently. And then the rest of it's color, spice, salt, onion powder, xanthan gum, and guargum. The Xanthan and the guar are going to modify the properties of the egg white and make it a little less hard.
+
+[7:02] And also, you know, maybe give it some of the proper texture when it's being, you know, poured
+
+[7:07] poured out into your pan. So that's what's going to make it kind of act more like an omelette. The coloring is obviously going to make it more, you know, more omelet colored. And the onion and whatnot is, I guess, just flavors that they think you want in there. So that is basically the egg substitute, you know, if you're just, if that's the one you're using, egg beaters. Now, the reason that doesn't work well in baking for you is because they haven't added one of the prime things that is
+
+[7:31] in eggs, and that is less thin, right? So eggs contain a good bit of fat, which also, you know, help in baking to, you know, you know, make it taste better and and, uh, there, there have functional properties, but there's the emulsifier, less thin, uh, and other
+
+[7:48] different various uh, phospholipids and things in there. So, uh, if you want to use those in conjunction, uh, you know, with, um, with soy
+
+[7:57] lessethin, which you can buy, right, that you can add a little bit of soy lessethin, and you'll probably get back a lot of the, uh, the same properties that you would get in an egg when
+
+[8:07] you're when you're baking. So I would add, I don't know, it's so hard to tell. I mean, I would add, you know, maybe half a percent by
+
+[8:15] by volume or a percent on eggweight volume of soy less than to try and get that, um, get that texture back. I would buy the powdered soy less of thin so you don't have to, um, uh, you don't have to heat it too much to get it in. You can, you know, blend it in with a stick blender and you should be able to get it in there and that might help your
+
+[8:32] your baked goods perform better. Now, they make, now, the reason why they probably don't put the soy lesser thin in there is because they don't want to add a soy product because it's going to knock out a whole segment of their market if they put a soy product
+
+[8:46] in and most people aren't using it for baking. Most people who are using egg substitutes for baking are doing it because they want to go vegan. They tip, they don't want eggs. Either they're allergic to eggs or they want an actual vegan product. And so those are typically powders. And they're usually mixtures of modified starches, like tapioca and potato starch. There's the energy is like one of the famous brands people use. And it contains basically tapioca starch, uh, potato starch, calcium carbonate, which is a leavening agent. I don't know why they use calcium carbonate, not other ones, but typically I would use that as leavening agent, but it's kind of specific. Citric acid, sodium carboxing methyl cellulose, which is a modified cellulose product, which is going to provide viscosity in the batter, and
+
+[9:32] methocellulose, which is going to provide viscosity in the batter, and also some gelation when the product is heated, and that's going to provide a little bit of structure that the egg would be providing while the batter is hot,
+
+[9:44] while it's hot and being cooked. So when it cools down, whatever starches in your bake thing will have time to set. Now, I did a cake with Johnny Azini from Jean George based on this, you know, years ago where we literally doped a whole ton of methacell, not a whole ton, you know, like, you know,
+
+[9:59] 0.8%, into a cake and phoned it without adding a lot of egg white because we wanted to produce a sponge batter that didn't have that kind of protein bite to
+
+[10:08] it. And so we used methacell for the same property. So they're, you know, they're basically including something that gels when it heats, but ungels when it unheats. They're including thickeners, uh, and a little bit of a leavening agent because that's basically what eggs are doing in
+
+[10:21] a in a baking system. So I hope this answers, do you think that answers that do a good job this week? Yes. As opposed? Did we get to drink when we're on the raw foods, right? Well, that's interesting. So if you go to pure, I like that Nastasia, all she's been thinking about this entire time is whether she gets to drink when we're on the raw food diet. I believe you do, the last time I was at Sarma's restaurant,
+
+[10:44] pure, pure food, right? Pure food, pure, you know, they have wine, but, you know, they they typically, like all the wines were biodynamic and all that. I mean, we don't have to go biodynamic though, right? That's not part of the part of the list. I don't understand. Like again, I'm going to get a bunch of hate, you know, whatever, X, Y, and Z, but I don't really understand the biodynamic thing myself. It's like, I understand, I understand, look. It's true that old school farming methods, like, you know, like the lunar cycles and all this other thing and like planting based on like X, Y, and Z, weather
+
+[11:16] sign. Sure, I'm sure they have some sort of basis, in fact, generated by centuries of trial and error, you know, wisdom handed down from the ages. Boom, yes. Do I believe this? Yes. But like taking a horn and like packing it with manure and then bearing it in your field doesn't make any
+
+[11:33] dang, any dang sense to me at all. You know what I mean? Like, that just seems like hokum, no? Yeah. But, but I think that, and I've said this before, I think what's good about it is if you're spending the time to go out in your fields and
+
+[11:45] bury a horn full of donkey poo in your field, I think it means that you're paying more attention to your crops, which is probably
+
+[11:52] going to make you have a better product. So it's not like that you don't necessarily end up making a better product this way. It's just that, um, you know, it's just, you know, it's not because of the horn and the donkey poop.
+
+[12:02] The other thing that's really interesting is I think that a lot of people who are interested in, you know,
+
+[12:08] biodynamics, organics, they never do blind taste tests. I never forget this. I went to a wine tasting, and the, you know, the person was handing out these completely organic biodynamic wines, right?
+
+[12:19] And they were saying, you know, this wine was producing a field and
+
+[12:23] a field is overgrown with all sorts of natural vegetation and it was awesome. All this, it was so full of life and crickets and frogs and birds and you know, all this stuff, right? And then, right, he's like, and the one next door, it looked totally barren. They had used, you know, chemicals on it and there's nothing growing but the grapes. It was, you know, completely unlifelike. There was no bub, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, wow. So you tasted them side by side and you really notice the difference in the wine. So he's like, ah, why would I taste that wine? I was like, what? What? The whole point is you taste the 2 wines and you prove that your method does a better job. So we need to find someone who actually knows that situation. You can find 2 producers with very similar soils and climates and varieties, like everything, same, same, but one's doing the biodynamic
+
+[13:10] action, and one's not. And then we do it side by side. That's interesting to me. Would that be interesting to you? So if any of you out there have this capability, please call or write in. So anyway, let's go to our 1st commercial break, but remember to call in your questions too. 718-497-2128,
+
+[13:26] 718-497-2128, cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feeling, Bella? Hey, jam. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take your high. All right. I wanna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, let's go on that. Gotta take you home.
+
+[14:26] Brother? Yeah? Now, I want everybody, left red flowing by two courses. And then I want to wave you, let's go until that we did it now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Get a James Horn moment. Fred, can you take us higher? Yeah. Take his iron. Fred! Man! Welcome back to cookie issues. All your questions to you, said 18497, 2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you live today from the refrigerated trailer that is Roberta's Pizzeria radio station. Please come out and eat at the restaurant, though. The restaurant's nice and toasty. It's just the radio station that's a refrigerated storage unit. Perhaps Patrick storing his meat here from the Heritage Food, and that's why it has to be so cold. Okay. Now, I have a question. 2nd time question from Max. And again, some of it is unprintable. So he says, you know what? We used a phrase, and maybe Nastasia can say it, so I don't have to say it this time for a stick blender. Dildo stick. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And he said, don't worry about that, but you know, if you if you don't want to use that, He gives me a word. I'm not really sure what language it is, but I'm a little worried knowing Max's questions. I'm a little worried to actually say it for fear that I might be saying something, but he says it translated to lopsided
+
+[15:55] carrot as the stick blender. Thats the slang he uses anyone. Anyhoo, he has an interesting question. And his question is, why not pig's milk? And this Max is an excellent question. And you've been worried about it for years, as have I, although you seem to have actually, you know, arrived the same answer I did.
+
+[16:13] And also, you know, spoken to more people about it, perhaps more pig farmers, because if you spoke to at least one, you've spoken to more than I have. But the, um, uh, the, the question that always comes to mind is we have yaks milk cheese, we have camel's milk cheese, we have cow's milk cheese, we have goat's
+
+[16:30] milk cheese. We have sheep's milk cheese. Do you think of any other animals? They, like, no, right? I mean, basically, domestic animals, they make milk and you get cheese out of them. Why is there no pig milk and or and or pig cheese, right? Now, the kind of the answer I'd always, you know, come up with in my head and spoken to, you know, I actually have spoken to some pig
+
+[16:53] farmers. But the answer is, is that, hey, look, when a pig gives birth, you use the milk from that pig to feed the piglets straight up, you know, and then you take them off of the, when they take them off, you
+
+[17:08] wean the, wean the pig off of me and the pig stops lactating so that you can have pigs again because pigs, unlike other animals, are really meat machines. You know what I mean? It's not they're not kind of multi-use animals. I mean, we get leather out of it, sure, boars, bristles, and whatnot, but compared to the cow, where we get milk, where we get leather, you know, a lot of leather,
+
+[17:28] or compared to the, you know, the sheep, or the goat, where we can get wool, and we can get meat, and we can get milk, or the chicken, where we can get
+
+[17:36] meat, and egg. The pig is a meat machine. You know, it takes garbage and well, it used to take garbage and crap that you would otherwise not be able to use and convert it into meat that your family can
+
+[17:46] eat. And so, I think the idea was, is that you want to fatten up the little pigs to get them into meat as fast as possible.
+
+[17:55] Another interesting thing that I did not know, Max, and thank you for bringing it up. is um, that pigs don't produce nearly the amount of milk that
+
+[18:04] uh, cows produce, you know, per per body per, you know, percent body weight. Uh, well, actually maybe 4% body weight, but he, Max says that the average pig is going to produce £13 of milk a day as opposed to a cow that produce £65 of milk per day.
+
+[18:18] Yeah, but you know what, Max? A cow is a whole hell of a lot bigger than a pig. I mean, a lot, unless you have a giant's, like, super fat pig. So if you were going to breed a fairly young sow that was like on the range of like £200 or something like that, which is normal about slaughter weight, you're going to breed it
+
+[18:32] once, I mean, to get, you know, £13 of milk out of that as opposed to, you know, a cow that weighs, you know, well over a £1000 doesn't seem like such a bad, like such a bad trade, right? I think a lot of it goes to the fact that, you know, they just use it to feed the pigs. Now, if I had someone with a lot of money, sure, I would either mechanically, you know, feed those pigs something
+
+[18:54] else, if that's even possible, I don't even know, and then just take the milk. I mean, Max, I think that, you know, next, I don't know where you live, but next time you're around, maybe we can find someone and just run an experiment. I mean, you could probably pay a farmer. the, like, if you, if you paid the farmer the entire cost of the litter of pigs that was going to be fed off of this pig, I, you know, certain that he or she would sell the
+
+[19:16] milk and then you could taste it, see whether it's delicious, and uh, and make some cheese out of it. I mean, you know, I think that's entirely entirely reasonable, right? What do you think? There was to, you know, not to get, you know, gross about it, but there was a chef. I forget who it was in New York, who was using his wife's breast
+
+[19:34] milk to prepare things. But I think that was just a gimmick. I mean, that's got to be a gimmick. I mean, you know, I have 2 kids. Listen, no, I have 2 kids, and I'll tell you, you know, that if you if you have
+
+[19:47] kids and and your wife or you, if you're a woman, you know, had to basically, you know, pump milk so that you
+
+[19:55] could go to work and then feed the kid the milk, then, you know, this stuff is like a super precious commodity.
+
+[20:00] This is not something that you're taking to the restaurant and turning into dairy products. This is like liquid gold that you treasure. And when you accidentally leave one out and it goes bad on the counter. you, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you know, racked with grief and horror and pain. You know what I mean? So it's not like something that I think you would normally normally do. But if a chef can do that, then you can definitely get some pig milk. And if you get your hands on some max. Please, you know, let me in on it. At least call me, send me an email, and tell me how this stuff worked
+
+[20:30] out because, you know, I'm dying to know. Right? Nostalgia's not saying anything. I told you, she doesn't want to speak on the air. It's not me. It's not me. Um, but, okay. So, hey, look, this is all in good tone, by the way. This is still a family show. I've not said anything. Anyway. Ben writes in and says, some recipes, particularly, particularly many Middle Eastern recipes for basmati rice, and most Asian recipes for short grain
+
+[20:59] rice, call for you to rinse, soak, and or drain rice before cooking. Other rice and recipes tell you strictly never to wash rice. What does washing do for the final product? Is there any reason to use one rice washing method over another? Does the type of rice affect this decision, the temperature of the water,
+
+[21:16] et cetera, et cetera? Yes, there. No, so the problem is, is that every culture has their own style of rice cooking and also their own style of rice that they're
+
+[21:27] using. Here in the US, right? If you're using an enriched rice that they enrich with, you know, with, you know, nutrients and stuff like that, a lot of them are basically dusted on.
+
+[21:38] So then if you were to rinse the rice, you would rinse off all of that, all of that stuff. Now, that's not an issue so much, if you're using rice that hasn't been enriched or if you use rice that's been enriched with, you know, I think they have one where they spray it like almost like a wax or an oil base in it or something like
+
+[21:53] that, where it stays in better with rinsing. So I think when someone tells you specifically, specifically not to rinse it, what they're doing is they're basically saying don't wash off the nutrients, I would guess, right? Now, the reason to rinse rice is because during the milling process of rice, there is
+
+[22:12] excess bran and starch that's on left on the outside of the rice. There's also, you know, some of the rice is processed in some pretty nasty conditions, you know, you know, it could have twigs, it could have rocks, it could have dirt, it could have, you know, animal or other types of bad
+
+[22:31] products in it. So, rinsing is a good step to clean it out. And in fact, if you take rice and rinse it, Most any rice that you can get, the rice turns cloudy really quickly, which means that there's a lot of soluble starch that's coming off of
+
+[22:47] it, or at least some sort of soluble powder. Back in the day, they also told you to rinse it because when they were milling it and sending it out, they would have a little bit of talcan to increase the kind of
+
+[22:56] whiteness and also, I think, as a milling aid, you need to wash the talcat. So, the rinsing step is most often to get rid of starch that's on the outside or that might, you know, interfere with things.
+
+[23:08] And so, you know, if you take a Japanese rice, right? Which is somewhat sticky to begin with, but you don't want it, you don't want the grains to be all glopped together, right? Then you're in a situation where, hey, look, you're going to do a lot of rinsing of this rice, especially because they don't cook it in a lot of boiling water,
+
+[23:23] right? There's not that much point in, um, in, in rinsing your
+
+[23:28] rice if you're going to cook it in an excess of boiling water, like it's done in
+
+[23:32] some, in some Indian recipes, because if you're going to cook it in an excess of boiling water,
+
+[23:37] right? The starch that is going to come off is going to be relatively diluted unless it's quite dirty, in which case maybe you have to rinse it anyway. But if you're going to cook it in either steamed or small amount of water, right? Like, like you would, like a small amount of water for Japanese cooking, if you don't wash off that rice and there's any starch on the outside, then it's going to become sticky because the rice already has that
+
+[23:59] medium grain rice already has a bit of stickiness to it. So to get it to be exactly the right texture, you want to wash it until the water runs
+
+[24:06] clear and there's no more starch coming off of it. And that's where those instructions come from. Now, um, you know, other types of rice, I don't think it's going to matter one way or the other, uh, too much. So for instance, like, you know, and coming to soaking and cooking technique, a lot depends on the type of rice.
+
+[24:22] Soaking, right, your rice as opposed to washing it. You wash it, and then you might soak it. Soaking it is helpful in situations where you want to either not use as much fuel because you want to get some of the water in before you start
+
+[24:34] cooking, or it also helps because any sort of water pre-soaking into the rice is
+
+[24:40] going to make the cook time quicker and also more even. So if you have a rice, it tends to split open on the outside before the inside is cooked,
+
+[24:47] right? Then if you soak it beforehand, you're going to get a much faster and more even
+
+[24:53] cook and the rice is going to come out better. Similarly, with a sticky rice that's steamed, right? You soak it beforehand because if you don't, it's going to be hard for the steaming method to get
+
+[25:04] the, you know, get more moisture in. So the pre-soak on a steaming thing like that really helps cooking sticky rice. Now in a parboiled rice, right? The reason why you can boil parboiled rice in a lot of water for a long time. And, you know, it gets a bad name in this country because it's called converted rice, you know, like Uncle Ben's converted bran rice. It gets a bad name here because people think it's some sort of newfangled, like bullschnaz. But in fact, right, it's an ancient and fantastic technique where you take whole rice, whole, you know, instill in the hull, and you boil it for a period of time in the hull, and you actually increase the nutrient content of your rice by boiling in the hull because you get some of the, well, so they
+
+[25:43] say I haven't really actually read the studies, but you, you know, you get some of the nutrient from the hull into the rice. Also, you pre-gelatinize some of that rice darch. Then when you cool it down. It, uh, what's called retrogrades recrystallizes and becomes resistant to swelling and bursting again. So parboiled rice actually doesn't necessarily cook faster. The ones that cook faster are also sometimes parboiled and then pre-boiled again and dried, right? So that they're basically, they're pre-cooked, which is different really from parboiled. They cook very fast, like minute rice, things like that. But traditional parboiled rice, which they have, you know, a lot of Indian rice that are parboiled, don't actually cook faster. I don't think, although I'd have to go back and check it. It's been a long time since I looked at a recipe. But the interesting thing about them is that they don't rupture or break apart, the grains stay firm and together, even if they're cooked for a long
+
+[26:37] time, and even if they're cooked in a lot of water. So it's a very good technique to get individual grains. They have a lot of bounce, they're harder in texture, even though they're cooked, because the starch
+
+[26:48] is, basically, you want to think of them as being kind of preset or, you know, kind of strengthen this by this technique of parboiling, cooling it, starts retrograding, then milling
+
+[26:59] it, and then cooking it again. So, there's a lot to do and with rice. It's extremely complicated. It's based on, you know, the type of rice you're using, the culture you're dealing
+
+[27:11] with, and the recipe you're using. I think if your rice is coming out sticky, you're going to be better off and you don't want it to be,
+
+[27:18] maybe you could benefit from some rinsing. If you don't want to rinse, right? And you do like Japanese style, you can buy what's called the rinse free rice and it has a Japanese word, which if I had it in front of me, I would attempt to pronounce, but I won't because I won't pronounce it out of my head because I'll get it
+
+[27:32] wrong and then everyone will laugh at me. But rinse free rice uses a kind of newer milling
+
+[27:37] technology that allows you to have a Japanese rice that has all of that extra starch and brand coating on the
+
+[27:43] outside completely remove without the need for rinsing. Mushy mint. I'm not I'm not going to try. I'm not going to do it. Anyway, so it all depends. I wish I could have a hardened fast answer for you, but it's there is no hard and fast answer. It's just knowing what the variables are and um, kind of how they how they interact. Is that useful at all, you think? Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right, we'll go to our 2nd commercial break. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You feeling good? so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, Jeff. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk. Good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk. Good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We've got to take you high.
+
+[29:00] All right. I want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's it. Gotta take you high.
+
+[29:12] Brother? Now I want everybody, let bread flow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go until everything is now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. You got James Horn moment. Fred, can you take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Man!
+
+[29:52] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling your questions to 718-4972128. That 718-497-2128. We heard from King Ingber. He was the gentleman that called in about his his mom's turkey, which was left out in the stoop, I believe in, was it Brooklyn or Queens? Brooklyn. Brooklyn. And, uh, and, you know, the question was why didn't, uh, why didn't he die? And, you know, I thought that was an interesting question. And so, um, and he's still alive, thank God. So he emailed us another one. He had a question about, um, the Araby. And the Arabi is a coffee machine, I believe it's called an Arabi. It's a coffee machine invented by the same guy that invented the, it's not called an
+
+[30:31] arobi, is it? It's called the Aerobi, the little Frisbee that came out like in the 80s. It's like a little ring that you can throw like the length of a whole football field, even if you're like a tiny kid. Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Jeez, man, I'm old. Anyway, so this guy invented a coffee machine. I guess it is called the Arabic. Anyway, so it's a coffee machine where he, you know, he basically said, look, I want to increase the amount of pressure in
+
+[30:55] the brewing chamber so that I can force the coffee through and thereby, I guess, get better extraction. So it's very simple mechanism. It's a piston that you drive the hot water through
+
+[31:06] your through the puck, right? and produce coffee. Now, the question has always been, is this espresso? And I'm saying this, I still, nastasia, let's just buy one of these dang things. Are they expensive? They're like 40 bucks. Well, charge you to the school. Well, anyway. Well, no, seriously, we'll buy it and we'll experiment with because I've gotten enough questions from it and I've never tried it. So I feel kind of like a moron every time I talk about it. But it's, it's, you know, it's, by all accounts, a good product, but the question is, doesn't make espresso. And my answer is, uh, no, because, and of course, Ken calls me out on
+
+[31:40] this and he goes, well, part of the controversy is semantic because if you define espresso as a beverage brewed at 195, there's a range
+
+[31:47] there. But yeah, at 9 bars also a range, with a mouse tail out of the porta filter, then a device that brews at 175 degrees Fahrenheit, which is what the
+
+[31:54] Aerobi apparently does. With moderate hand pressure, it can't make espresso. And that's true. Uh, that's what I'm saying, but I don't think it's merely semantic because if you look at, uh, if you look at, um, the book, um, the chemistry of quality, espresso, the chemistry of
+
+[32:12] coffee by Andrea Ely, which is, I believe, available again, it was unavailable for a couple
+
+[32:16] years and is available again. There are numerous charts and graphs showing
+
+[32:22] extraction and the type of not just like how much is extracted, but what is
+
+[32:27] extracted, at varying different pressures and temperatures. So you're, you know, it's not gonna be the same cup of coffee because brewing kinetics is extremely complicated. And, you know, in the new year, if I ever find time, I have a lot to do with espresso and pressures and things like
+
+[32:42] that. But it's extremely complicated. So I'm not saying that it can't make a fantastic cup of
+
+[32:48] coffee and maybe the best mocha style pot, you know, coffee ever. But I also wouldn't call, and I don't dislike, by the way, mocha pot means those little kind of octagonal things that you put on your
+
+[32:58] stove and the water boils up through them and makes coffee as mocha pot. You everyone know what I'm talking about? Um, they're cheap. They're fine. Those things are, they're fine. They great. They make a decent cup of coffee for what they are for a mocha cup of coffee, right? They are a short, strong cup of coffee. However, to me, that does not mean that it is espresso. That is a different animal entirely, right? So I'm not saying it doesn't make a great cup of car. And I shouldn't even talk about it until I get one, but I feel like I should address your question now. Um, I don't feel that it could possibly make the same thing as, uh, as an espresso, at least not, of course, non-intensity espresso you get
+
+[33:36] out uh, anywhere is Drek anyway. And so you might as well make it any dang way because the people who make it, you know, care not a whit for how it's made or what it tastes like, you know? Like, like 9 times out of 10. You go and someone's pulling a shot in like 15 seconds or 45 seconds and they don't really care that, you know,
+
+[33:53] that, you know, what the shot time is. They're not really accurate with their dosing. They're not really accurate with their tamping. Their grinders aren't adjusted properly. I mean, anyone of those variables throw off in your espresso is not going to be the same, at which point, you know, maybe you might as well just make it out of a 40, you know,
+
+[34:10] a $40 pot, which is not to be disparaging on the $40 thing. I really want to get one experiment with it. Maybe, maybe it'll change my life and, you know, I'll throw away my La San Marco espresso machine. Anyway, I don't know. But it definitely needs some experimentation. And he also pointed me to a really interesting little thing on
+
+[34:28] coffee geek, which is a fantastic website, by the way. I love coffee geek. I've been going to it for a long, long time. I lurk there. I never really comment, but it's a fantastic site. And, um, uh, point to a person who's measuring their coffee extraction using a refractometer, which is I've heard about before, but I've never actually done
+
+[34:44] it, and again, now I feel foolish for not having done it, because one of the main, you know, quality characteristics in coffee is how much stuff you're extracting out of the coffee
+
+[34:52] bean, and the way one of the ways you could test this, obviously, is by measuring how much stuff other than water is in the coffee when you're
+
+[34:58] done. And a lot of people use what's called a total dissolved solids meter that's basically measuring the conductivity to do this. Instead, this other gentleman whose name escapes me, is using a refractometer, which seems like a fantastic technique in a really great way for someone at home or even in a restaurant to make sure that their coffee is staying on
+
+[35:16] point at least in terms of extraction. But remember, even at the same level of total extraction, right, out of coffee, it doesn't mean you're extracting the same thing,
+
+[35:28] right? At different temperatures, different things are gonna extract differently. So if you get, let's say, whatever you're going to get, like, you know, 10% extraction out of the coffee, right? Bean, right? Let's say you get that. Well, who's to say that it's the same 10%? You're just measuring, you don't know that you don't know the distribution of, you know, of the different elements that you're sucking out of the coffee and how that's affected by the pressure and the temperature.
+
+[35:52] So to measure the performance of a machine strictly based on
+
+[35:58] extraction, in terms of what it reads on a refractometer, I think is missing what, you know, the full kind of gestalt of what's going on in espresso.
+
+[36:07] And it also harks back to, you know, I think a real problem with all of food science, which is, you know, we often, uh, you know, I read, I read food
+
+[36:15] science and you need to make metrics. You need to quantify what you're doing in order to have a result in order to have repeatability, especially
+
+[36:24] in industrial commercial scale. But often these measurements, which are trying to measure very, very specific, like crispness. They're trying to measure like how, you know, how hard it is to break and to form a crust, let's say, or total dissolve solids or any one of a number of things. These metrics are really measuring something that isn't a single variable, but are controlled by a wide variety of different things that are going on within food
+
+[36:49] systems. I mean, the reason of food systems and drink systems are so interesting other than the fact that they're delicious and we eat them every
+
+[36:54] day is that there is such a richness to be encountered with a very small number of ingredients, starting ingredients. And so, you know, it's very hard to get a set of metrics. It's actually going to work as well as looking at it with your eyes, feeling it with your
+
+[37:11] hands and tasting it with your mouth because in the end, right? That is all we really care about, right? I mean, the repeatability, the metrics, the thermometers, which I all love. I love I stuff because I love any gadget. Anyone knows me, loves it. I love any gadget. But the, you know, like all of that is only an
+
+[37:30] aid, uh, to trying to, uh, you know, get get to the best instrument of all, which is your tongue and your nose and your eyes.
+
+[37:39] Uh, so that's my my feeling. On the other hand, I'm going to go out and get a refract on that I can measure my coffee with. Right? Anyway. So I think in the time that we have left, I will discuss alkalinity and some interesting
+
+[37:54] things, I think that we've been working on last week, someone asked a question about
+
+[37:58] myard reactions, and I somehow got into a riff on Thai lime water, right?
+
+[38:04] Remember that? Yeah. And, so I read this website by, uh, it's called SheSimmers. She's a blog and she had a, you know, a bunch of stuff on Thai cooking. I think her she's tie or her family's tie. And they use this limestone water, which is slaked lime, calcium hydroxide, and they do numerous things. I've used it for years to hardened bananas up when I'm going to, you know, make a foster or something like that. So the bananas get a cook taste, but they don't break up. Apparently it can also be used for pumpkins. But she uses it. And apparently it's traditionally to be used in frying batters as well. And I was extremely interested in, uh, in that because she says it makes it crispier. Now, in a rice in a rice flower situation. We have tested that and I haven't, we haven't gotten any conclusive answers, right, Nastasia? Right, yeah. I mean, Nastasia preferred the one with the with the lime water in it because she likes the flavor of the lime water, which is reminiscent of pretzels or reminiscent of a tortilla because it's got this calcium hydroxide, this
+
+[39:06] lie kind of flavor that Nastasia really liked. But it didn't seem like it was any crispier. No. And it also didn't seem like it browned any faster. I was thinking it was going to brown a lot faster because alkalinity accelerates myard reactions. Well, yeah, we have to run all those again. Yeah, we have to again and again and again and again. You know, because of that question on my art reactions, I'm now in like a probably a five-month K-hole of worried about alkalinity and noodles and, um, you know, and batters and frying, because it turns out
+
+[39:34] that that this lie, you know, use of alkaline cooking methods is goes across, uh, kind of, you know, the world and
+
+[39:43] culture was was used in various places completely separately from each other.
+
+[39:47] So when I started reading about this Thai red line paste and it came to my, you know, attention that is basically just calcium hydroxide, well, calcium hydroxide is kal, right, is what the, what is used in, um, you know, you know, south of the border here,
+
+[40:02] uh, Mexico and Central America, uh, and, you know, I guess South America to, uh, next to Milized corn, right? And so, uh, nixtamilization is the reason why everybody who lived here isn't dead, right?
+
+[40:17] Because, uh, you know, if your main staple is corn. right? Uh, and you don't know how to nixtamalize, which is also the best word in English language, right? It's not even English, but this is the best, nixtomalization. That's like a, that's an awesome word, am I right? So if you, if you don't, uh, uh, and the way nixtimilization works, is you take calcium hydroxide, you, you put
+
+[40:39] that in water with dried corn, uh, you heat it for a while and then you let it steep. And what happens is, from a functional standpoint, it makes it easier to mill and to grind because in back in the day, they would be grinding the corn after it was, you know, boiled and soaked on something called matate mano, which is like this like stone thing with like the mano is like a square thing and they
+
+[41:04] grind it that way directly from the corn grains into the masa that you would make the tortilla out of or
+
+[41:11] whatever, you were grinding it to make tamales or whatever. And so I'm buying one, by the way, today. Yeah. Anyway, going to Nastasia's neighborhood to buy one. Anyway, so the, basically, it was easier for them to mill. It also, the alkalinity softened the husk on the outside of the corn and also thereby making it easier to milk. But the process of boiling and soaking in alkaline solution, because
+
+[41:38] calcium mitroxide is alkaline, did 2 other things. Well, one more functional thing. It made the dough easier to work. If you don't, if you just take cornmeal and mix it with water, it doesn't have the right texture of masa,
+
+[41:50] right? Partially the boiling pre-gelatinizes the starch a little bit. And so that helps the dough stick together. It provides some structure that it doesn't, you know, because there's no gluten, you need some structure in the dough. And so pre-gelatinizing some of the starch on the outside of the corn kernel in the beginning of the boiling procedure helps to do that. And also treating it with the alkaline solution, the calcium
+
+[42:14] hydroxide, that also causes the starch to be able to hold more water,
+
+[42:20] right? And so it improves the dough capability. So it holds more water. to feel drier for a particular for particular water concentration, and it all in all makes the dough easier to handle, easier to form into tortilla.
+
+[42:35] And so without next normalization, there is no real tortilla production, right? But here is the kicker. It also makes niacin available in the corn that was not available beforehand.
+
+[42:48] So you get a bunch of Europeans showing up and they ship the corn over to Europe and they grow it, right? And it was cheap and easy to grow, so they grow it, and they start eating a largely corn-based diet, and they all get
+
+[43:00] pellagra, because they're not getting the niacin, because the dunces don't look and see that, you know, there's this procedure that's been done for, you know, millennia, literally millennia, right, of next
+
+[43:11] civilization, they don't think that's important. They think that they can just take the crank, the grain crop, corn, and build a whole culture around it without doing the
+
+[43:19] niximalization. And as a result, we get Palagra. So, this is a process, it also has another effect, in a culture that was probably deficient in milk at the time, prior to the domestication of milk producing
+
+[43:32] animals, to go back to Max's question, the calcium hydroxide also radically increases the amount of calcium that's in the
+
+[43:39] tortilla because the calcium goes into the corn. And so all of a sudden now you have a lot more calcium available to the system. You have a lot easier thing to work with as a doe. And you have, and you have
+
+[43:53] niasim. So it's all good. Now, I became interested in this, uh, because I'm interested in all things uh, like that. And so we started nixtomalizing things based, you know, based on the fact that we were playing around with it using Thai red lime paste. Now, uh, we're going to, tomorrow or the day after, we're going to tour Torteria Nixtamal, which is like the only place in New York that uses its
+
+[44:13] own, uh, um, makes its own Nixtamal. I'm getting a matate because I did some mixtamilization of popcorn, which is weak. Don't try to do it with popcorn. It's not the right kind of corn. I've read on the internet that it works fine. It does not work fine. I mean, it works fine, but it doesn't mill very well. And without the stone grinder, the metate mano, over the weekend, when I was making a tortilla for, you know, my family
+
+[44:34] for for Sunday dinner, I blew out my Vita Prep like 3 times. I blew out my cuisinart. It was a King Hell mess, and I still didn't get the texture exactly right. So today when I pick up the official Mexican grinder, I'll tell you whether or not, you know, next
+
+[44:49] week, hopefully, whether or not it works. But I'm also interested in nystimalizing other grains other than corn for just for giggles, right? So what you know, we've done barley. We've done rye and we've done wheat. And I've had some success and some failure, and we'll come back on it, but
+
+[45:06] basically, we made something that was made with rye that had, it had a rye flavor, which
+
+[45:11] nastasia doesn't like, unfortunately, because she doesn't like things that are delicious. But also the flavor of tortilla, right? So a lot of the tortilla flavor, what differentiates it from just, you know,
+
+[45:22] cornmeal cake is that lie cooking has a characteristic flavor, right? And so next time you bite into a tortilla, think about the difference between that and
+
+[45:34] unnextimalized corn and that flavor. And so I was achieving that flavor in other grains. Now we haven't yet done the control side by side of whether just boiling it for the same length of time without using the lime is going to produce the same kind of
+
+[45:47] batter. But this is what we're working on in cooking issues. We want to bring nextimilization to the next level. Like usual, we're not content with just learning, which we're going to do on
+
+[45:58] Thursday from the people, real people who do it every day. So it's always best to go visit someone who does it every day. so that you can get a feel for what it's like to do it right. I mean, it sure beats the, you know, 400 pages of niximalization crap I read in the scientific literature that I downloaded off of my illegal connection to Columbia's servers.
+
+[46:15] But the, you know, nothing beats going and touching the real stuff, eating it, tasting
+
+[46:22] it. I will have practiced with my matate mano by the time we make it to it. And next week, this time, I mean, I won't be a master. Also, I'm not going to use a tortilla press because it seems to me like that's like a sissy move. I need to learn to be like a Mexican grandma. My goal in life other than, you know, like doing a good job on this raw food thing that we're going to do, you know, is I, you know, and this is a
+
+[46:44] longtime life goal is to become a Mexican grandma. So that means I need I already have a mocha jete in my house, a little stone grinder, which I've had for years and you know, a little like, you know, mortar pestle. I've had one of those for, you know, I don't know, 10 years, 12 years. So now when I get this grinder, I'm one step closer. And when I can form tortillas effortlessly by hand, without a press, I
+
+[47:06] am, but then I have to learn Spanish. And if I, once I learn Spanish, I will officially be a Mexican grandma.
+
+[47:12] Uh, and uh, with that, I will tell you to go. We have a new post-up. Go check it out. It's on pairs. Nastasia and I did a great pear tasting and I finally posted on it months later because I'm a lazy weasel. Cooking issues. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did.
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+[0:00] The following episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Tech Serve. This January, responsibly dispose of all your old electronics at one of 10 e-waste recycling events held across 4 boroughs of New York City, hosted by Tech Serve and the Lower East Side
+
+[0:15] Ecology Center. Computers, printers, monitors and lots of other electronics are being accepted for safe and proper recycling. Visit techserve.com slash recycling for more information and drop off location details.
+
+[0:34] Vicious fish, vodka. Hello and welcome to cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to
+
+[0:45] 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cookie issues. You can call in all of your questions too, 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:53] 718-497-2128. Most of the time we take technical questions, but we'll take any question. Today, actually, Nastasia is not in the studio with me. She is live from where the heck does your family live, Nastasia? Near Pasadena in California, Southern California. So not even in Pasadena, like near Pasadena? Yeah, a very small town. Anyway, so Nastasia's got up early in the morning, gathered all your questions and is joining us across the country live. So, how's it going over there, Nastash? How the weather? Good, it's good. It's raining. Do you miss me yet? Wow. Wow, wow. Wow. Okay. So, yes, of course, of course, we always miss you when you go, Nastasia. Okay. Just messing around. All right. So we have quite a bunch of questions to get to today. let's start out. Steve, okay, I'm going to try to pronounce this name. Mignonia. What do you think, Nastasia? You speak Italian. Steve Mignonia? I think so. I think that's fine, yeah. Yeah, that's good. I just got a thermal circulator. Congratulations. And for those of you that don't know, that's what allows us to do most of our low temperature cooking because it keeps
+
+[2:01] water temperature is very accurate, great for the restaurant, great for dinner parties, great for cooking for your family. I use it all the time. I have two. Nastasia has none. If Philip Preston from polycience is listening. Nastasia Lopez would be great. marketing tool for to, for you to give a circular to, just saying maybe for Christmas. Maybe for Christmas. I'm just saying. It's not too late, you know. I just got a thermal circulator and I'll be using it to cook short ribs for my family for the holidays. Also a good idea. I do not have a lot of time this week to experiment with cooking temps and times and I wanted some advice on which to use. My father, who's a big skeptic of any new cooking technique. I'm with you, Steve. I know what that's like. We'll be making short ribs the old-fashioned way. So we're going to have a short rib cookoff. Now, Steve's seen different techniques between 55 degrees Celsius and 60 degrees Celsius anywhere from 24 hours to 72 hours.
+
+[2:54] Steve's leaning towards 58 degrees Celsius for 60 to 72 hours. You're not going to need to go that long. Anyway, I'll get it out of the second. Steve's ideal finished product would be a medium rare short rib that is fork tender. He's not looking to replicate prime rib or filet texture, which is good because they shouldn't be the same, but would rather have a more fork tender falling apart meat, any thoughts. He says he knows that I recommend 60 degrees Celsius for 48 hours, which is 140 for all you Fahrenheit heads out there. But what's the final result with those numbers? Thank you. Okay, now, a lot to talk about here. And unfortunately, we're going to get into some technical minutia for all of you people who are going to space out on this. But look, here's the deal. Here's here's the good news and the bad news. I would not pit a low temp short rib, side by side against a regular short
+
+[3:45] rib because I think they're different. And if someone's shooting for a good old-fashioned stick to your rib short rib, the old-fashioned short rib is
+
+[3:54] going to have kind of a beefier taste. It's also going to have more of a pull apart texture. The low temp short rib is Anastasia, you know this. Yeah, the, the, the, the low temp short rib is gonna, it is, it's gonna be soft and tender, but it is gonna slice more like a steak, right? Right, Nastasia? Yes. Yeah. And it's not going to be rip apart like a, like a, like a regular short rib. But if you want something, I wouldn't go 58 degrees, 58
+
+[4:19] degrees is, it's pretty rare. Um, I think people want a little bit of a meteor taste. They want it a little more cooked, but slightly pink on the inside. I mean, you could go as low as 57, which is about 135 Fahrenheit,
+
+[4:31] uh, and then you're in the kind of the, the, the medium, that's in the medium rare zone, but people aren't really expecting a short rib there.
+
+[4:39] Um, so what I would do is I would serve it entirely differently from the way your dad
+
+[4:44] um, serves his short rib. I wouldn't try to replicate. I would just recognize that they're too entirely different products and serve it accordingly. I mean, I wouldn't like shred it up and serve it over a pile of like some kind of a starch product. I mean, mustache, you've eaten a lot of these things. I mean, and from someone who's doesn't come at it from the same perspective, I do, what do you think about the traditional versus the, the,
+
+[5:09] the low tent? I actually haven't had a lot of traditional short ribs. I mean, whatever short ribs I've had have been at home and, well, we all know how that is. Yes, yes. Nastasia's family can overcook even short ridge, apparently. But so in other words, I wouldn't try to pit them against one another, although it's admirable. I have done it many times, and the traditional short rib is going to have a more traditional short rib texture. It's going to be beefier because it's going to be cooked at a higher temperature, but it's also going to be the meat fibers themselves are
+
+[5:39] going to be overcooked. I would choose 60 degrees, uh, and, uh, because Nastasha, you like the 60 better than the 57, right? Yes. Yeah, I would do 60, and I would do it, um, if you, at 60 degrees, if you cook it for 24 hours, it will have the texture of skirt
+
+[5:54] steak. Uh, at 48 hours, it will be a, a firmer, but still tender, um, short
+
+[6:01] rib at 72 hours. It will be, to my taste, too mushy. It'll have lost too much of its texture. So I would go in between 48 and 72. I would say somewhere in the range of like 56 hours at 60 would be a good number. I would sear the meat both. I would sear it quickly put a crust on it beforehand. The key to this technique is overreducing your sauce before you put it in the bag. You must over reduce your sauce. If it has to be like almost gloppy because what's going to happen is you're going to bag it with the
+
+[6:31] sauce, the meat's going to give up its own juices into the bag and water down the sauce.
+
+[6:35] It's going to taste like pot of food, like a boiled beef, which is not what you're looking for. So you want to over reduce the sauce a couple hours before you serve it. I would then, after it's done, cooking, I would let it chill down, don't chill it right away or the meat's not going to absorb a lot of the juices again. I would put it on the counter for about 20 minutes, then you could put it in water for about regular tap water for about 20 minutes, although that's an extra
+
+[6:56] step. It does make it taste better. according to Bruno Gouseau, and according to our independent taste tests afterwards. Then you can ice it down. I would then open the bag, you know, several hours before you're done, ready to cook, scrape out the sauce that's rendered, warm it on the stove, correct the taste and temperature of
+
+[7:13] it. will likely need to be defatted. It will most certainly need acidity, might need seasoning correction. Put it back into a Ziploc bag with the short rib. Don't let it, you know, sorry, 1st then sear this short rib real quickly from cold, right, to put a little extra crust because it's going to look green and kind of weird. Throw it back into the bag and then retherm it at like 5557 for up to 4 hours, but you could
+
+[7:38] probably like 2 or 3 hours. It'll reabsorb some of the new sauce that you've put in. It's going to be thick and juicy and delicious. And that is going to be a bang up, delicious short rib, but it won't be the same thing as a traditional short rib. Any comments, nastasia on this? No, that's good. And then he should let us know what his family thinks of his and his dad. Yeah, well, here's the thing. I mean, like, it's like anything else. The low temp short ribs. It's not there's some things that are just better, right? That I mean, that's the case. There are some techniques that are just better. And then there are techniques that are just different. A traditional short rib is different from a low temperature
+
+[8:12] short rib. The traditional short rib. You're basically almost boiling out the meat. The fibers themselves are horrendously overcooked. And then you render the collagen into gelatin, the gelatin plus the delicious braising sauce. By the way, the braising sauce is then reinforced with that gelatin, right? So you get an incredibly unctuous sauce. And that's what makes the deliciousness of a short rib. But those short ribs can't be sliced. Those short ribs don't have the same texture as a low temperature short rib. Low temperature short ribs aren't as unctuous because you don't render out the gelatin. The collagen breaks down, but when you slice into a low temp short rib, you'll see that the collagen hasn't rendered out. You can still see where the collagen was. It's just become soft. So that stuff doesn't render out into the sauce and doesn't give that incredibly unctuous texture to the sauce. It also doesn't individually moisten each fiber of meat, the way it does in a traditional brace. Furthermore, in a low temp, because you can see it slices, the fat doesn't render out, so you're going to have to slice off some of the fat. So it's all a question of what you're looking for. If you want something that you can slice into a beautiful presentation is incredibly
+
+[9:12] tender, but not the same as a traditional short rib, and you realize you're going to have to make up for some of the stuff you're going to lose, incredible beefy flavor. I would put some cooked rendered meat into your sauce beforehand. Don't just rely on the short ribs himself to provide that beefiness because they won't be there because you're not using a high temperature
+
+[9:29] technique. So I would just try to keep in mind the benefits and disadvantages of each technique, realize that they are just different
+
+[9:35] techniques, and does it have to be a competition? You know, ask your dad, Steve. Does it really have to be a competition anyway? Uh, happy, uh, you have collars? I know someone just emailed me and said that they can't get through. I don't know. Is that true? Jack, what do you know about this? Jack, our trusty engineer? We're short staffed today in the in the in the radio station. I see nothing. Did I give the right number? Anyway, if you can hear me, call her. Try back again at 718. What is it, Jack? 718-497-2128. Yeah, Nastasia, maybe tell them to try again. Yeah, because John Stewart. I hope it's D John Stewart. Well, that would be amazing, but, you know, I assume not. So, um, well, John, if you are listening, to me, you are the John Stewart. Anyway, see, Nastasia is so bad with customer service, I swear, I swear. You got to learn. Never learn. Guys, we've got John on the line. We have John on the line. All right. Hi, John. How you doing? Hey. question for me? Yes, sir. So, yeah, I just want to say, uh, big fan, I've just discovered you guys a month or so ago and have now listened to all of
+
+[10:45] your, uh, a backlog, and it's it's really, really fun. So, um, you guys have inspired me to, uh, build my own immersion circulator and get some spherification supplies. So I've been doing that the past week or so here. So I'm experimenting with both of those. And I hope to use both of them in a New Year's Eve dinner that I host every year.
+
+[11:05] How many people? It's going to be 12 to 14. Okay, good. That's a good number to start with the circulator. Okay, yeah. So, I mean, last year I did a, so I guess there's 3 questions I have about that. So last year I did a beef tenderloin, uh, you know, traditional cooking. It was good. Uh, tender lens a crowd pleaser. Um, and I guess, you know, sous vide is appropriate because I can, you know, control the
+
+[11:30] temp, internal temp very well, but I'm wondering if there's something, I guess my question is, what do you think is the protein that is most improved by sous vide
+
+[11:39] cooking? Um, you know, is I wonder if I should be more ambitious than just a tenderline. That's excellent question. And strangely, one, I haven't really thought of. So let's just break it apart between sous vide and the low temperature, right? Because most proteins can be done well. Uh, you know, when I say well, I mean properly, uh, low temp and to good effect, depending on what you're shooting for, some proteins, I don't like very much
+
+[12:04] in, uh, in sous vide, in a vacuum bag, because I find that affects their texture. chicken, most notably, and certain fish. But are you going to be ziplocing or are you going to be doing vacuum? Just Ziploc. I dont have a vacuum device. I use, by the way, I use Ziploc at home. That's what I use. Right. And I'm assuming that your circulator is going to be able to do like about a degree or so. I mean, are you going to PID control it? So it's going to be... PID control that should be accurate within, you know, offensive degree, really. A couple tents. All right, good. Okay, so and as long as you have good circulation, it'll be accurate across the bath. Okay, fine. So you can do pretty much anything you want. Here's the good the good news about Tenderloin is that it's fairly easy. You want to go super low temp on a tenderloin. We're talking like 55, 54, like is low, low, right? And I wouldn't cook the tenderloin whole. I would cook it in, I would pre-slice it out, sear and put it in the ziplocs and get it ready to go. Here's the main problem with a tenderloin. And one of the great things I love about cooking steaks in low temp. Because that's, by the way, like, in fact, I might do this soon. It's one of my favorite, like, dinner party things because it's going to be really easy for you to do. Like you're going to be a rock star and it's also going to be easy, right? I prefer a big thick ribsteak, like thick, you know? And so, and so, and the bad news about the tenderloins, if you do it, if
+
+[13:23] you cook's much more than about 40, like 45 is ideal. If it cooks much longer, like an hour and a half or so, because there's no connected tissue in the tenderloin, it's going to start to feel kind of fibry. So for someone who's not used to it or is used to overcook tenderloin in general, they'll think it's fine,
+
+[13:38] but you know, you probably won't think it's as good as
+
+[13:42] it could be. I mean, you can do a bang up job on the tenderloin, but it's just, you know, you have to be careful not to cook it too long. I mean, one of the great tenderloin applications, low temp, is uh, the beef Wellington, where you can cook the whole tenderloin, like, you know, for a short period of
+
+[13:56] time all the way through, then wrap it in a puff and then hit it really hard in the oven so that you don't overcook the meat because it's already cooked.
+
+[14:02] You don't need to worry about it. you know, technique we call low temperature for insurance purposes. But if you go, instead of going tenderloin, if you go ribsteak, and then, and I like to serve the ribsteak, you know, what I'll do is I'll buy like a standing rib roast for a party, then I'll slice it into
+
+[14:16] steaks, right? You know, usually I'll take the bone off, maybe render that to make some meaty stuff, then take the steaks, cut them real
+
+[14:23] thick. Then I sear them and I actually sear them a lot longer than I normally talk about to put a heavy crust on
+
+[14:29] them because I make them so thick that you're not really losing that much meat by doing it. It really gives a nice kind of crust and meaty flavor on the outside. You know, salt and pepper the heck out of them. Then I throw them in a bag with butter. I throw garlic in. Some people don't like that, but then I use the butter afterwards to make garlic bread so that I have a no waste situation, right? Then the advantage of a ribsteak as opposed to a tenderloin is a ribsteak can cook for, you know, like a minimum for a real thick steak of, you know, an hour and a half or so, but up to like four,
+
+[14:57] five, five, 6 hours. Your window is a lot longer, and you're not going to have, you know, so if people don't sit down or
+
+[15:04] if, or if something happens, you're not working right at the edge and you're not worried about the texture going bad on you, right?
+
+[15:09] And then about an hour before service or so, I would turn the bath down to 52. I mean, don't say I said so, but 50 Celsius, so that the whole temperature of the steak drops down a little
+
+[15:21] bit so that when you put a real monster sear on the outside, when you take it out, you could put a really good crust on
+
+[15:27] it without raising the internal temperatures too much on the center of the meat. Then, you know, you just, you know, and you can do that steak by steak. So for a party, you could, if you have like, you know, 4 steaks that you're serving out, you know, really thick ones. You could do two, slice them down, send them out, and, you know, then do the next, you know, then, you know, take a 5 minute break, do the next 2 while you sear off the next 2 and bring them out.
+
+[15:51] And it's, you know, that's the way I run my dinner parties. Nastas, you've been to my house for steak, right? Yeah, no, not for steak, but I've had the steak that you're talking about before, yeah. The one where I drop it? Well, yeah, you made it. We did it at the school and you made it. I mean, that's that's a, it's a crazy, It's a crazy awesome way to have a dinner party, right, Nastasia? Yeah, it's delicious. Yeah. So, I mean, I would do that over tenderloin. I mean, these, you know, it used to be, and this is like, you know, it's not me being misogynist. I'm just like, this is what I used to hear, right? The ladies, they like the tenderloin. And, uh, but I think nowadays, you know, I think, you know, even people who used to go on those old, you know, sex-based stereotypes, which I never buy into,
+
+[16:29] but, you know, they go on it. I think everyone realizes now that a dude, a dude thinks it's like mucho sexy for a woman to tear into a ribsteak. I right about this? Yes. Yeah. It's like it's like it's become kind of chic for women to order like, you know, a neat scotch at a bar because it's a sign that, you know, that you're a butt kicker. Am I wrong about this? I agree. Yeah. Anyway, is this helpful at all, by the way, for your dinner party? No, that's a great, great suggestion. So what temperature, so you say 50 C to like finish it off, but what about the, you know, few hours cooking beforehand? What temp did you use there? Okay, so I would do my personal, some people I know like to do is low as some people cook really low, which I don't, but like 55 to 56 in that
+
+[17:14] range. Like, so a good, like, middle ground is like 55.2 or 55.5. If you have a chance to practice on one rib steak before you do it,
+
+[17:23] so you can get a feel for what it's like, that at 55, it won't be squashy at all in the center, especially if you cook it long
+
+[17:32] enough, it will be good. Um, 56 sometimes is a little too tight for people. Um, you know, for especially for rare heads. It's a little too tight. But like 555, this squeamish people, if they look at it, they might say that it's underdone, but once they eat it, they're
+
+[17:47] going to like it. And the rare heads aren't going to be, it's a good compromise, right? Especially if you put a, you drop it so that the temperature goes lower and you put a good hard sear on it. No one's if their eyes are closed, no one's going to quibble with the texture. It's just a question of how it looks. And then, of course, you know, even though I make fun of a, you know, a lot of Nastasia is partial to any kind of Italian, any kind of Italian, it doesn't matter what it is. It's Italian, it's good. So, you know, so I, yeah, right. Yeah. So I bust on her all the time about it. anyway. So, but that said, when I do steak at home, I go Italian style and I drizzle some delicious olive oil over it, um, and, you know, some crunchy
+
+[18:25] wall and salt, and I've never had a complaint. Sounds delicious. Okay, great. So that's very helpful. I appreciate it. So the other question is about then spherification. So one thing I want to try to do is sort of a deconstructed Bellini. So I'd like to do like a reverse verification of peach and then drop that in Prosecco. Um, So I'm, you know, I'm obviously very new to this. What I've found online basically is that the idea is I'll put some calcium lactate in the peach puree. Get calcium lactate leucinate. Don't get just straight lactic. calcium lactate glucinate because it has no taste. Calcium lactate still has some taste. Okay, so that was my 3rd question then, is what is the difference between lactate and lactate glucinate? Okay. Okay, so then, uh, so then I'll basically then freeze it. So the ratio was about 2.5%, I think, for the calcium lactate, glucinate. 2 to 2.5 somewhere in there. good. You have to warm the peach puree to get it to dissolve properly. Okay. Not hot. You don't have to make it hot, but you should warm it. I mean sometimes you don't need to, but you just want to be sure, you know. Okay. And then just drop that into a sodium algenate bath at 0.5%, is I think what I found? 0.5? It depends on your algenate. If you have a really strong alginate, then .5 would probably work. If you have a weak alginate, then you might have to go as high as .8.9. It all depends on your algernate. I try a couple different, um, couple different ratios. Also, how long you let it sit in the alternate bath? The skin is going to keep growing on it. What I would do, you know, if you can make them beforehand, you put them in the
+
+[20:07] algernate bath, you let them sit for however long depends on your algernate and whatnot. Fish it out carefully. Don't let them touch each other. They'll glue to each other, okay? Then you're going to want to rinse it off in water and they get the excess algerinate off of it. And then you can put it into a calcium bath briefly just to make sure everything's set up. Now, you can let them thaw in the calcium bath. You can let them thaw in peach puree. You can let them thaw inside of your champagne flute if you want. But what you can't do is let it thaw in,
+
+[20:39] you can't leave it in the alginate too long and you can't let it thaw and stay in a regular straight
+
+[20:44] water bath or calcium bath because the, the, the sugar and the flavor and the color are going to
+
+[20:50] leach out over time. Okay, through the shell. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's water. you know, it's, it's, it's semi-porous. So you're going to leak the stuff out. It becomes like a membrane and you have osmosis across that membrane and you tend to lose color and flavor and sugar and acidity.
+
+[21:05] Like, and doesn't take that long. So, I mean, yeah, don't worry about it when you're making it. But I'm saying don't store it for hours and hours in a water bath. You can store it directly in your calcium-based peach puree, right? Which is always good. Or, um, you can uh, let them finish thawing in your champagne flute. The good news about letting it thaw on the champagne flute is it's easy to get in without breaking. The bad news is is that if you have a broken one, you're not going to know until you pour the champagne in. So, you know, it turns out you can never win. You know? you ever notice this? And then how long, I mean, when you prep something like that. And then put it in the peach puree, like leave it sit in the peach puree. How long is it good in that situation? I mean, how long ahead can I make these? Long time. I mean, uh, you know, I've never done it with the big ones to kept them a long time because I just do them for like an event or for the classes, but, you know, we've I've had uh, reverse, um, reverse verification, uh, maple syrup balls that we've kept for a
+
+[22:04] noastasia. How long have we kept those things like a week? Yeah, yeah. Like a week? As long as it's isotonic, right? If you're storing it in the same stuff, it's made out of, and there's some calcium there, then
+
+[22:14] you'll be you'll be okay until the stuff goes bad. Okay. We got to take a break. Oh, yeah, we're going to our go into our 1st commercial break. Thanks for your call in and good luck. Let us know how it works out Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Great show. All right. How you feeling, brother? Feeling good. You feeling good. so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Now, call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, Jeff. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right! You wanna do it again? You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's it. Gotta take it.
+
+[23:23] Brother? Yeah. Now I want everybody, let's bread flow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, just go and do it. Now, all right. All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Go, James, hold on a moment. Fred, can you take us higher? Welcome back to cooking issues, calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. coming to you live for another segment or two. And by the way, uh, Heritage Radio Network is on hiatus, Anastasia, I get to use the word
+
+[24:00] hiatus. You like that? We're on hiatus next week. And we'll be coming back to you, I guess that means in the new year. So this is our holiday edition. Yeah? Yeah, hello. Yeah, I wrote, yeah. I said that earlier. It goes to show what I know. I was busy. I'm building a new computer at home and my head's been stuck in the sand. Sand is the polite word. Anyway, well, we're talking about low temperature cooking. And again, if this is the 1st time you've ever heard me rant on about it, low temperature cooking doesn't mean that you're cooking something
+
+[24:31] to a low temperature. It doesn't mean raw. And, you know, raw cooking we're going to get into next year. Nastasia, we have to set a date. We have to set a date for our raw cooking extravaganza, our week. for the last week of January. Is that what we, is it already set, the last week of January? We don't have anything to do, and I think it's, I think it's a good time. We have no other events? No. All right, people. People. Last week of January is cooking issues, raw food week, extravaganza, not just raw, by the way, because I can't stand to be called a
+
+[25:01] sissy in public. Well, that's not true. I let it slide all the time, but not when it comes to food. So, you know, you can call me a physical coward. You know, you can call me like a relationship sissy. That's fine. But food sissy, no love. Anyway, so, uh, uh, you know, anyway, so we're going to do the raw food
+
+[25:19] challenge, the last week of January, I've already purchased with my own, uh, my own money, an
+
+[25:24] Excalibur dehydrator, because all the schools were stolen. We're sourcing a champion juicer. I am, you know, but I'm going to go on this for a 2nd before I answer the next question. Unless the caller calls in, I'll take them right away because that's service for you. Uh, the, uh, so here's some things, Nastasia. Nastasia and I have read now, what, like eight, 9 raw food cookbooks? Yeah. No, don't, no, don't get, okay, be nice. Well, I'm not going to go post apocalyptic. In fact, you can't cook raw food in a post-apocalyptic situation because you won't have your
+
+[25:58] Vita Prep. You won't have your, you know, your dehydrator, your champion juice, all that. The question is, can we, at the cooking issues team? Can we bring some stuff, some stuff to the table that other raw food people haven't brought to the table
+
+[26:12] yet? Yes, right? First of all, I'm going to rotovap some stuff. I'm going to make some hyper low temperature reductions. Now, I might get called the sissy here because it's not going to be useful for all the raw food people out there because they can't do that, but we can do distillations at low
+
+[26:26] temperature. We can do fruit reductions, things like that well below the 118 marks. So we're definitely going to do some of that, right? Um, I'm also interested in using a, uh, trying to find some good recipes for the, uh, Santa, the wet grinder that they use for dolls, see whether we
+
+[26:42] can't get some new interesting recipes using the wet grinder, uh, from a, from a raw food perspective. And I'm also, I'm gonna use a bunch of enzymes. I mean, a bunch of, now, because it, right, Nastasia, there's nothing wrong with using a commercially available enzyme,
+
+[26:56] prep, I mean, enzyme is the whole deal, right? I mean, why can't we use enzymes? Now, if I can get a hold of straight transgutaminates, it doesn't have any malto-dextrin in it, it's been heated, and it doesn't have any casing, any milk casing. I don't see why we can't use some transgutaminates to glue some raw proteins together. I mean, it might be fun, right? So these are the kinds of things I'm thinking about for our raw food extravaganza, which we've now publicly announced so that we're not welching is going to be the last week in January, which means we have to start cooking now.
+
+[27:28] You know all those raw food recipes. All the raw food recipes are, you know, stick some almonds in water and, you know, wait 8 years and
+
+[27:36] you'd be able to eat. You know, if, you know, like the cooking instructions are so bananas and all these things because it just takes so dang long to do.
+
+[27:44] Anyway, we will do it. And we're going to do a good job and it won't be any, yes, we're going to do a good job. Okay. Kurt writes in. My Cuisinart slow cooker seems to hold a fairly constant 165 degrees Fahrenheit, 74 degrees Celsius, when on the warm setting. Is this temperature useful for any low temperature cooking applications or is it simply too hot? Kurt, I am sorry. It is simply too hot. Um, it's good for traditional cooks, um, and, and, uh, and braises. You know, something you could do in it that is going to be good is, for instance, if you want to do a duck confit, but you don't want to have to worry about it, right? You can put into a bag. Uh, and even, uh, listen, the, uh, the John S.D. Johnson Wax, a family corporation, you guys familiar with these people? They make the Ziploc bags. Uh, they're gonna, they will, they will write in and call me a bad human being if I say you can do this because their bags can't take boiling temperatures.
+
+[28:42] Polyethylene in them can't take boiling temperatures. But if in fact your thing doesn't go above 74, it should be able to handle this. Okay. If you take a duck leg. And even just a couple extra tablespoons of fat, and you salt cure it with, like, thyme and herbs and whatnot for, you know, the recommended procedure, like overnight, you know, a day or so, and then put it in that Ziploc bag. You could put it in your slow cooker and leave it for like, you know, several hours,
+
+[29:11] uh, and you can make a very good duck coffee that way without having to have a lot of fat. So it's really good to do stuff like that, uh, in a similar vein, any traditional braise like that, uh, or any confit, I should say, not traditional braise, but any confit, uh, is great in that, something like
+
+[29:27] that, because I actually prefer the high, higher temperatures and more traditional temperatures, but I like to be able to do it without having to have boatloads of fat around just because it gets
+
+[29:35] expensive and messy, and then you need to cool it in the fat, which is a pain in the butt. And so I think it's a it's a really good technique, but just don't tell the SC Johnson
+
+[29:45] wax people on me. What do you think, Nastasia, yeah? Yeah, no that's good. That's good to know for me because that's all I have here at home. Yeah, all right. Well, I will say that when I use a circulator. 9 out of 10 times, my circulators, unless I'm doing crème anglaise or a test for like vegetables at a higher temper, like we're working on nixtimalization, unless I'm doing something kind of special like that, my circulator is set
+
+[30:10] below, below 6, below 63, really, most of the time, below 62. In fact, at 60 or below 90% of the time. You know, I'll do most of my steakwork in the 55 range in there, duck at like 57, uh, and
+
+[30:27] then, uh, chicken at 60, uh, 3 to 65. I should have said 65. So that range is where I am, never really above that. Um, unless I'm doing crème anglaise or something special. But it's really great for comfit, and there ain't much more delicious than confit. Okay. Let me see. Michael writes in and says, hello, Nastasia. Here's a question for Dave. Hi, Michael. How can I make my own fizzing tablet like Alka Seltzer or Airborne? Obviously I'd like to be able to give it an intense flavor and have whatever mineral salt is used in the tablet base, not be too overpowering. I think the main thing I'm not sure about is how to bind the powder into a tablet. Thanks, Michael. Okay, there are 2 ways to, well, I'm sure there's a 1000000000 ways to make tablets, right? Like, the easiest way isn't going to work for you, which is you put the ingredients into a gum paste and
+
+[31:18] then like cut them or, you know, push them into tablet shapes and let them dry out. This is going to give you a texture similar to an altoid, right? But not kind of a hard shiny tablet. The next easiest way. And that won't work for this because if when you, I don't think that if there's any liquid when you combine
+
+[31:36] the, the way you make a fizzy tablet is you combine an acid, typically some mixture of
+
+[31:41] citric, malic, tartaric acids, right? And I guess you could do lactic or something like that, but typically it's either citric malic, tartaric, or a blend, with a base, typically something like baking soda, like sodium, sodium bicarbonate, although some people use, I think,
+
+[32:01] potassium bicarbonate or, you know, other mixtures of bicarbs, right? And when they combine in liquid in your mouth, they fizz, right? And this is the same thing that happens when you make a volcano when you're a kid, when you add vinegar to baking soda, and you get this volcano to
+
+[32:16] spice up, right? Now, how are you going to get these in into a tablet? That's the question. Okay, the easiest way, not very satisfying, but the easiest way is to buy empty gel
+
+[32:28] caps. And you can get those. I know Whole Foods sells them. They're basically, the Whole Foods doesn't sell the gelatin ones. They sell like a carrageen-based one, but GNC or any of these places where there's kind of people making their own pills all the
+
+[32:40] time or you can get them on the internets. Um, you get gel caps and you can fill the gel caps, push them together to form
+
+[32:47] capsules, and they'll melt fairly quickly on the tongue and if you let it sit there and go acid. But I get a feeling this is not what you want what you want to do. What you want is something called a tablet press. Okay? And the way a tablet press works is you take a bunch of ingredients in binders. They use like dextrose powder, uh, probably some, uh, malta, sometimes some maltodextrin, whatever your flavoring is, and maybe some oil-based agents. I am not sure. But they mix it all up, and then they put it into a 2 sided press, and then a press comes down and bang, smashes it into a capsule for them. And if you're really rich, you can write your name in it and stuff like that. Now, these presses, they're not, they're not cheap, right? They have manual versions of them. I looked on eBay this morning and there's someone, it's called a tablet press. There's someone selling a hand one for 50 bucks that I think you put the ingredients into a little cylinder and you screw it
+
+[33:40] down, almost like you're screwing down like a jack and it smushes a tablet and then opens up and you have it, bang, you have a tablet. I don't know how fast those are. What I used to do leather work back in the day when I was a leather worker with my wife making
+
+[33:52] bags a long time ago. Um, I had something called a kick press that I used to use to do, uh, or, you know,
+
+[34:00] to make, put snaps into things, and grommets, and they have all different dyes. That would probably be the next level up. I don't know if they provide enough force to make a tablet, but I didn't really, I didn't really research it long enough. Uh, all the, you know, the big, the big machines, they use uh, like a hydraulic power and you press it and they squish it down, but now you're talking like a several $1000 problem instead of a $50 problem or for the kick
+
+[34:24] press, if you buy it used. If it is the same kind of press that you use to do snaps and grommet work, you're talking like, you know, a $100, $150 problem, something like that. But that's how you make the tablets. The trick is making sure that you don't have an excess of base. It's usually okay to have an excess of acid because we like acidity in our tablets. It's not okay to have an excessive base. In fact, you need an excess of acid. If you don't, it's not going to have any acidity to it. You will have a salty aftertaste that, you know, that comes along with the acid in the base mixing and producing
+
+[34:59] a salt. So I would choose a salt that you like the flavor of. Usually sodium salts. I think tastes better than the potassium salts. Nastasia hates the potassium salts. Yes they do. Yes, yes, she does, and she, you know, tries me all the time. anyway. Uh, so, uh, is that is that helpful, thanks, Nastasia? ? I think that's helpful. Let's take one last break. All right, we're going to go to a commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128 718-4972128 cooking issues. How you feel, bro? You'll feel good. It's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I'm feeling right. Now, call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fellas? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it, yeah. Yeah, that's going, man. Gotta take you high. Bam! Brother? Now I want everybody, let's bread flow in my two courses. Welcome back to the holiday edition of cooking issues, calling all of your questions
+
+[36:35] too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We probably maybe extend it a little bit, Nastasia. Go another 15 minutes. So if you can make it to Nastasia's door outside of Pasadena in the next 15 minutes, you can ask her a question in person. Just kidding. Please don't, please don't do that. Please don't do that. Please don't. Yeah, her mom will probably, you know, put some buckshot into you. Yeah. Okay. William called in. He couldn't get the live feed, so he sent an email in. And he said, Dave mentioned lab sales where you can find old roto apps. a rotary evaporator, a circulator, which is, you know, we've been talking about a lot today, that you can find pretty cheap and just need to clean up and maybe fix a few fuses on. I try my Google Kung Fu for auctions or sales in the NYC area. I haven't found anything. Do you have any resources I could check out to find these kinds of sales. I've never gone to a live lab sale. I get all, basically, of my lab equipment off of
+
+[37:32] eBay, and just base it on finding either occasionally someone will like flood the market that happened with roto vaps a couple
+
+[37:42] times, and actually recently the market on eBay was flooded with roto vaps. So the price went down, but it's starting to go back up again. Um, you know, there's centrifuges and things like that. Labex is another website, Labex is another place that a lot of lab people go to get lab equipment.
+
+[37:59] The live auctions that I go to are mainly restaurant auctions. There's not a lot of labs in New York that go out of business. There's a lot of restaurants that go out of business or change owners or for whatever reason have auctions. So all the live auctions that I've gone to in the New York area have been either
+
+[38:14] laboratory, sorry, restaurant auctions, or I used to go to New Jersey and Brooklyn a lot for machine shop auctions back in the day when I was in the art biz.
+
+[38:24] And I used to do that a lot. And those I always found in the, um, you know, in the New York Times, in the, uh, used to be at the back of the help wanted
+
+[38:31] ads. I don't know if it is anymore. But if you've never been to a restaurant auction, it's something to behold. It's a crazy, it's a crazy situation, especially if you need 8000 pans that have been beat to hell for like a nickel a piece,
+
+[38:45] uh, which, you know, or uh, my deep fryer, I bought one of those things for like, you know, uh, 50 bucks and, you know, they're crazy. I mean, you can get some crazy deals at those. But I've never been to a lab one. Now, eBay, eBay, the way to go. And just look for, if you can fix things, look for things that are not working, but
+
+[39:03] you feel that you can troubleshoot based on the description. You have to take chances. I've had things that I couldn't fix. It's rare. I've had things that I couldn't fix for a reasonable amount of money. But, you know, that's basically what I do. I take my chances on eBay. a lot better if you can go to a live auction and kick the tires. For that, you can look in the back of the New York Times and they will have like major lab auctions that show up that you can go to live, but they're not usually in the New York City area. They're like they're around. Uh, but, you know, Eli Lilly did that a while ago and there are people who who, uh, who deal with that. Hope that's helpful. Didn't sound so helpful, but I didn't feel very helpful. Was? All right. didn't feel helpful. Okay. Teddy DeVico writes in. Hey, Teddy, how you doing? He's asked some questions before. Recently watched Wiley. That would be Wiley Dufrayne. my brother-in-law, a friend of the blog. Wiley's Meet Gloomania presentation for Harvard's Food Science Class. That's the class that Faran Adria is heading up at Harvard. We have a lot of good friends speak there. I think, uh, you know, McGee spoken there, uh, Wiley, Dave Chang, uh, but didn't ask us, right, Nastasia? didn't ask us? Not us. No? No, no, no, no. you know why? We're chumps. Why? Chumps. We're chumps. Low quality, yeah. Low quality. We're low quality people. This sparked an idea. I think it would be possible to make hot ice cream using an ice cream base, transgutaminates YG, which is the
+
+[40:26] yogurt, transgutaminates, translutaminates, binds, proteins together, including milk proteins, so it makes yogurt, so it weeps less and holds together better. Methyl cellulose and gel and gum. Do you think this would work? I should be receiving my sample of Activa soon. Thank you. No, I don't think it will work. But, you know, look. Here's the deal. Hot ice cream is one of those things that people have been trying to make for for, you know, years and years and years and years. The 1st hot ice cream attempts were made by a physicist name of Nicholas Curtee, you know, who is kind of
+
+[40:59] one of the one of the people in the 60s who really started, uh, 70s started really popularizing, uh, you know, science in the kitchen. He was, you know, he knew McGee. He was one of the original people in molecular gastronomy, conferences in
+
+[41:13] Riche, and he wanted to make hot ice cream for a long time. It didn't work out for him. Wiley Dufrayne took it on for a long time as something he wanted to do, was working on it a lot back in the year, I
+
+[41:25] think like 2000, 2001 in there. and not able to do it. I've had other like bloggers and peoples and who shall remain nameless, their recipes for hot ice
+
+[41:36] cream, and none of them taste like ice cream. I mean, the problem with ice cream. So the theory is, I can make the, I can make something that has, uh, the texture of a melted ice cream, right? So that's the gel in. So you're making a fluid gel that holds its shape even when it's, even when it's, you know, either hot or
+
+[41:56] cold doesn't matter. It has a texture of like a nice ice cream base. Can you do that? Yes. Can you take a methocell and make it firm up when you heat it? Yes, right? And that's what all the hot ice cream recipes are based on, some form of methocell that melts when it puts in your mouth and gets cooler, right? But, uh, but none of them have, uh, the texture is ice cream. None of them are as hard as ice cream. They don't have the bite of ice cream, like ice cream is like a chilling effect in the mouth. is nothing I've had, approximates what you want in your head is something that provides that the feeling of ice cream, but is somehow reversed from hot to
+
+[42:35] cold to hot. And I've never, and I've tasted a bunch of people's different recipes for it. And I've never had something that provided an experience that I thought was satisfying.
+
+[42:45] Uh, it just, it just, I think it's one of those. It's like the, it's like the philosopher's stone of, uh, of, uh, new cooking techniques. Every, like everyone's had their hand, uh, you know, tried to make it. And, you know, just like you can't turn lead to gold. I don't think you can make a hot ice cream. I can't think of a good bet to make on it like we did on the raw foods, but in other words, I would want to have it. Like, I hope someone could make it because I think it would be really fun, but I've not had one so far that I thought was totally successful. Wiley made one. He said he can get the texture of soft servo, okay, but not like not like the hard ice cream. That's even like the super holy grail. the hard ice cream. So I hope you have success. If you call the different recipes on the internet, there are several for hot ice
+
+[43:34] cream, uh, and I want you to have success, it's just I'm, I'm dubious. I am dubious as to whether or not you will be able to achieve it. What do you, Nastasia, am I being too, I not being hard. not being hard. just, you know, I mean, I think the, I don't, I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but I think your brulee ice cream is really good.
+
+[43:55] Yeah, but that's, that's cold ice cream. Yeah, I know, but I can't even, like, register hot ice cream in my head. Right. Well, imagine something that's exactly the opposite of ice cream. It's like ice cream in bizarro world, you know? It's like, it's, it's, it's hard when it's hot. And then when you put it in your mouth, it cools off because it's, you know, you're
+
+[44:16] cooler than it, and then it melts in your mouth instead of you heating it to melt it. It's like every it's like everything bizarre. But, uh, and I know many people who tried to do it. It's just I've never had one that I thought, man, that's ice cream only hot, you know? The brulee ice cream is good, but it's it's still, it's, you know, it's ice cream. It cold in the center. But Teddy, I want you to work on this problem. This is, you're traveling a good line of thought traveled by many, you know, very, um, very smart and very good people before you. So maybe you can succeed where they have not. I hope so. Uh, because that would be that would be fun. So tell us, tell us what kind of results you have with it. Michael Nakkin writes in. And hello, he says, hello. He has tapioca maltodextrin, which I've used for the usual tricks of turning various fats into soils and powders.
+
+[45:04] By the way, uh, Michael, remember, don't call it, uh, just tapioca Malta Dexter. The one that turns oils into powders is Enzorbit tapioca maltadextrin from the National Starch Corporation, right? Not all tapioca maltadextrins will turn fats into powders. In fact, almost none will, except for Enzorbit, because of its particular structure, it's a bulking agent, okay? That's why it's so light. So, in the fat cookbook, Michael continues. Heston Blumenthal talks about Maltodextrin, DE 19, which he says is a low sweetness sugar that he uses to make savory ice creams. Are these the same or closely related products? Can I use my tapioca maltodexter in this kind of application, and would either of them be useful in making a low sweetness vegetarian savory marshmallow? Okay. Here are my ¢2 on that. They're not equivalent, okay? Maltadextrans are, so basically you take a starch. It could be tapioca, it could be rice. could be, you know, anything. corn, could be whatever. And you have a starch, which is basically a length of repeating glucose chains, glucose units, right?
+
+[46:13] And you break it down into smaller things. So the smallest thing you can break them up into is sugars, right? you know, glucose and glucose syrups. And then slightly longer, like, you know, like eight, you know, 8 glucose units long, you have 7 glucose units long. These are called maltodextrins, right? And they can either be not sweet if the chain is fairly long. The longer a glucose chain is, the less sweet it is, right? So the longer chain maltedextrins aren't sweet at all, really. And so the Ensorbit brand, tapioca maltadextrin, is not sweet at all. But it doesn't really act like sugar, the same way. The shorter chain ones can start tasting sweet to you, right? So DE 19 means that it has that powder has the, I think this has been a long time, but it's basically 19% as sweet as sugar per unit weight, right?
+
+[47:06] And it's composed, therefore, for of fairly short glucose unit, you know, chains of glucose, right? Anything much higher than that, and you're dealing with like a glucose syrup, which are also not that sweet compared to sugar. You're talking on the order of like a 5th of the sweetness of sugar. And so you can use them for things like savory ice creams, which we do all the time at the school. We make a, we make an ice cream that, you know, one of Nils's old recipes that is goat cheese ice cream where we use glucose syrup, which has a slightly higher DE, i.e. slightly more sweet than
+
+[47:38] the, than the, um, multidextrin you're talking about, which is D of 19. We're like DE 20 DE in the low 20s range. And we make, like, basically save, not savory, but not sweet ice creams with that. I don't know how useful they'd be for making a marshmallow because I don't know exactly how close the properties are to
+
+[47:56] sugar and sugar is not, it's not only like a texture, it's a structural component in your in your marshmallows. So I would tend to think that you'd be better off using something like an isomalt. Isomalt is half the sweetness of sugar, but cooks a lot like sugar. So for a marshmallow, I would go ahead and use something like isomalt. The problem if you if you use too much ice, and I love isomalt. But if you use too much isomalt, like if someone eats like 8 bags of isomalt,
+
+[48:21] um, uh, marshmallows, they're going to get the poops. because you don't digest it the same way necessarily. So like some of it goes as fiber and so you can get you can get the poops from it. Anyway, so I'm told. I've never gotten the poops from too much isomalt, but I got to cast on your stomach. I should feed something to Nastasia because, you know, if anyone says they're going to have a problem with it, Nastasia will say she's going to have a problem with
+
+[48:44] it. I write about this? right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, well, I had something else on that. Something else on sugar. Oh, I once tried to make savory marshmallows with this product called light test, which is a modified sugar product that has 0 sweetness, but I don't even know if that stuff's on the market anymore.
+
+[49:03] I didn't have much success with it. It always absorbed too much water out of the air and they got too, they got too weepy. See, Michael's taking on a double edge problem. First, he's got to get the good vegetarian marshmallow, which means you have to get the right
+
+[49:15] carraginan product to mix with it. Then to take it the next step and want to make it savory, then you got to get the right kind of savory product.
+
+[49:21] I would definitely start with I would definitely start with isomalt. Definitely. Definitely. Uh, yeah, right, right in a staff. you guys know? ? Yeah, okay. All right, so we... Come on, Dave, come on, Dave. You have the goose question? Are you going to answer that? Oh, the goose question. was the goose question? Did I get that one? Yeah. number five. Give me the goose question. Other than deep frying, this is from Adam. Other than deep frying, what would you suggest for cooking Christmas goose for the 1st time? My mother never let us have it because she thinks it's too greasy. I want to show her that she's wrong. Ha, goose. It's an interesting problem. I have cooked goose several times. It's sometimes hard to get like a meaty goose, and so it seems greasy, or it seems tough because it's not, you know, I would goose. I mean, the question is, does, you know, does he have a circulator? We don't know. We don't know if he has a circulator. I mean, goose would be great in a circulator and then crisped up in a really, really hot oven. Dang, cook a goose. I would do goose to try and render out. If you're worried about greasiness, I would try to render out as much of the fat. this is totally just off the top of my head, by the way. So, you know, take this with, you know, a box of salt instead of just a single grain. But I would, um, I would maybe do something like you do with a Peking duck almost where you, you know, you kind of separate the skin away. Uh, then you, you know, put the hot uh, liquid over it, and then you allow it to air dry a little bit, and then I think you, you know, uh, like with a fan, and then
+
+[50:47] you probably render out a good bit of the, uh, of the fat, um, and make it not so greasy. So I would, I would, I would treat it if you don't have a circulator, I would treat it as if it were a Peking
+
+[50:58] duck. If I had a circulator, I would break off the legs and then, by the way, Booker, my oldest son has started every 5 minutes, he comes to me, he's like, I thought chickens made meat.
+
+[51:08] I didn't know you had to break the head off of a chicken to get chicken meat. And then I'm like, yes, you have to break the head off a chicken to get chicken meat. And he goes, do you break the heads off of chickens? I'm like, no, I mean, I would if I had to. I mean, I think it's, you know, kind of an obligation, but he's like, well, why not? I was like, well, you know, we buy it from a butcher, but it's like so brutal. He's like break the head off the chicken. That's what he says, break the head off of a turkey. That's like, that's his imagery is that somehow you walk up to it, it's alive and you break its head off, which I guess not that far from the truth, but it's just, you know, hearing an
+
+[51:37] eight-year-old use terms like break the head off of. anyway. So, uh, if I had a circulator, I'd break the legs off the off the
+
+[51:45] goose and then cook them separately because they're going to want to be at a higher temperature and cook for a long time to break it down, whereas the breast meat's going to get dry and overcooked if
+
+[51:52] you if you let it go that long. So I would break it down. Do the breast, low temp, I would do it at probably 57 or 58 for about 45 minutes, cool it down, sear off the skin to crisp it
+
+[52:04] up, and then do the legs almost probably confit style. Uh, but that's, that's me. But deep frying, obviously, a great alternative because deep frying is God's cooking technique. Uh, what do you think? Yes or no? Yes. Okay. So this, I guess, will be the last cooking issues of this year of 2010. We're going to come back in 2011. A little bit of an announcement. Nils is Nils, the intrepid leader of the French culinary culinary
+
+[52:34] program, is he's not leaving the FCI, but he is changing his roles.
+
+[52:40] He's stepping down from that role. He's going more on a consultant basis. And so he came to us and I think we're going to, he's going to be probably off the cooking
+
+[52:50] issues Masted, he said, right? Because he's moving, moving on, doing other things. Is that what he said to us, Nastasia? So that's that's big, big news, but, you know, he got put in in eater and various other blogs, kind of incorrect information about the whole situation. Nils is just wanted to do some other stuff and is very, is very, you know, time-consuming, busy job running the culinary, especially
+
+[53:15] because we're expanding and doing a lot of other things. And I think he just wanted to cook more and run schools less, right? Yes, that's a good way of putting it. yeah As should anyone who likes to cook. should be wanting to cook more. And so that is all of our New Year's resolutions from here at
+
+[53:35] cooking issues. Cook more. and we'll catch you in the new year. Thanks for listening. Happy holidays.
+
+[53:47] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of 10, when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and the customers that
+
+[0:16] barter house tries the culture and cultivate, I think are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take an allocation of an 80 case made
+
+[0:27] wine, that they've got something special. And it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in. And, you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth
+
+[0:38] degree. Like we're not making 100,000 cases of Pinot Grigio and, you know, flogging them all over New York, but the customers that get wine from us are kind of
+
+[0:47] believe in the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young winemakers who have a passion for doing it.
+
+[0:55] And we supply them with a market, and we allow them to get their product out there to
+
+[1:00] otherwise an untapped group of people.
+
+[1:09] Fishes, fish, and vodka. Oh, you did that. Happy New
+
+[1:23] Year, and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you Tuesdays from around 12, I guess, to 1245.
+
+[1:29] It's Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Ready? Oh, nice. Nice. They have new features in the radio today. That's awesome. I love that. That's for the new year for all you people listening. Those are the new year's sound effects. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 for all your cooking related questions, technical or not. And Jack, here we have a caller. Hello, Caller, you're on the air. Hey, how you guys doing? I'm a big fan of the show. Thank you. I have a question about using whipped cream chargers for rapid infusions. Right. Um, I was wondering if it could be used to infuse, um, and make flavor vinegars. Yeah, I don't see why not. Yeah. I've never tried it, but I don't see why not. We've done oils before. You know, but just, you know, for quickly for people who don't know what we're talking about. Rapid infusion is a technique where we take nitrous oxide cartridges usually in these ISI, these whipped cream makers, so you can look them up under cream siphons or whatever on the or whippers on the
+
+[2:34] internet, some people use them to get high, we don't, I don't particularly enjoy the nitrous high. And they, under pressure, basically force liquid into porous items, then you rapidly release the pressure, the liquid boils out, and
+
+[2:46] you flavor your liquid. And so the question, I normally do it with liquor. But the question is, can you do it with vinegar? I don't see why not. you tried it yet? I haven't I'm waiting on my whipper to get here. I just ordered it through a friend of mine in a restaurant, so I'm trying to get it the cheap way through him. Right. Here's some guidelines. Whenever I do water base, and essentially, I don't think that the vinegar is going to enhance the solubility too much of most of what you're
+
+[3:14] working with. I don't think it's going to hinder it, but I don't think it's gonna help it. So my, in general, when I do water-based work, you're going to have to use
+
+[3:21] probably a little bit more of the product, and then you're probably going to have to let it sit a little bit longer. Every ingredient that you use has different kind of optimum infusion time. And so, you know, for chocolate, I find it's somewhere like a minute and a half or so. I mean, it all depends on the product. Some people I know do coffee for, you know, many minutes up to hours. Some people I know even overnight on something like coffee, you know, cold. And so, you're going to have to play with your amounts and how long you leave
+
+[3:52] it, leave it in, but I would definitely do it longer than any of the stuff quoted on the blog for liquor.
+
+[3:57] And I would also, you know, take heed of the comments that people said that, you know, you're going to want to wait, you know,
+
+[4:03] uh, you know, many several minutes after you uh, vent it for the flavor to fully develop because I think that really is, I don't know why, but I really think it's a real, real
+
+[4:13] phenomenon. Okay, cool. Could I ask one more quick question? Sure. The same lunch. What about using them to with cucumbers inside of it to kind of make a quick pickle in the charger? you think that would work? It does. It doesn't work as well as a vacuum does. At least, I don't think. I mean, I haven't done I mean, I tested it once. It works, but, you know, I think, do you have a vacuum machine or no? I do not know. All right. Well, then it's probably going to be one of the better things you can, you can do. Another way to do those kind of, you know, flash infusions. And we call them quick pickles too, but you have to be careful because when you're when you're pickling, you're actually kind of doing an exchange of fluids and with all of these rapid infusion techniques, you're
+
+[4:54] basically you're not exchanging any fluids, right? You're just injecting fluids into what used to be air holes. So you're going to need a fairly strong flavor base to do it. And you're also going to need, you know, not think of them as being preserved in any way. And then also things like cucumbers tend to get floppy because you inject it right away and there hasn't been time for osmosis to kind of start up and for the actual cucumber cells to leach out their liquid because you're going to put something in that's high in salt, let's say,
+
+[5:23] and or sugar or both. And the liquid is going to start migrating out of the out of the cells of the cucumber and it's going to start getting floppy. So for like really crunchy, crisp results, you're not going to want to let the stuff sit around a while. And it will work. If you're going to do it that way, though, I would say rather than use it the way that we say, I would make it cold so that it doesn't bubble out as much when you're releasing
+
+[5:47] it because the goal is to keep liquid in and not to have it kind of bubble
+
+[5:51] out, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, thanks. I'll post up on the blog with the vinegars if they work out well and let you guys know. No, cool. Yeah, I hope so. I hope it works out for you. Thanks for calling in. Thank you So on a non-cooking related note, uh, we just spent the last 10 minutes brushing muck off of my, uh, off of my... Well, yeah, anyway, it turns out that, you know, here in New York City, we had some snow, not a
+
+[6:17] lot, really, by normal standards, but for some reason, like they decided not to plow it. And Manhattan, they totally cleaned out. So I was like, oh, it's safe to take my bike that I shattered the rear fender on just before Christmas and
+
+[6:27] having had time to fix because I'm lazy and stupid. And so then I rode across. And of course, as soon as they get over the bridge in Brooklyn, it's like, it's like mucky
+
+[6:34] snowmobiling on my bike. And so like my tire backside is sprayed with muck. has nothing to do with anything. Okay, onto, onto real cooking issues, questions. By the way, we had some people ask us how our holiday,
+
+[6:49] we were both Christmas folks, so how was our Christmas and New Year's? Excellent. Yours, Nastasia? It was good. Yeah? Not excellent. It was good. Good? Oh, all right. Okay. Then with that, I will get right to the questions. So a while back, Thanksgiving time, we had a question from a listener who asked why he wasn't dead because his mom used to basically take
+
+[7:10] cookie cookies. Turkeys and salt them and put them out to in the kind of the back porch to kind of cure for a couple days, you know, not in refrigeration. And the question is why, why not, why not death? Why didn't death ensue? And, um, you know, I think it has a lot to do with kind of the air drying effect that happened on it and the salt levels and the herbs and
+
+[7:32] XYZ, all these things kind of, um, you know, go to stop kind of bacteria from growing on the outside, which is where most of it's going to grow because the inside's sterile, yada,
+
+[7:39] yada. Go back and listen to the podcast for the gory details. But, um, We had someone write in. Mark Rosenblatt, also from Brooklyn says that his mom used to do that in Long Island, but not with turkeys, did it with
+
+[7:52] ducks, and would do the same thing with duck. And so I will relate. I will relate what he says. He said, He grew up in Riverhead, in Eastern Long Island, in the 50s, and duck farms were plentiful. So his mom would cook, ducks instead of turkey, and fully prepare 2 or 3 ducks 2 days beforehand, and listen to cure outside,
+
+[8:13] and I wondered why they never got sick. Her technique was if she would put whole clothes of garlic inside, which are
+
+[8:20] anti-microbial, rubbed it, but I would never trust it to be antimicrobial, but it is. rub the exteriors of the duck with a thick mixture of olive oil and crushed garlic. Of course, that's actually like poison waiting to have, it could be poison where you have them from a botulum standpoint, but probably, you know, probably not. Uh, you know, anyway. I mean, like, you know that garlic oil is one of the, it's like a dangerous, can be a dangerous thing. Anyway, then coated the entire bird and a blanket, of course, coarse kosher salt, thereby stopping any botulism from happening, and wrapping the duck in wet newspaper. And, um, you know, because he used to deliver newspapers. And so the newspaper would dry out and his brother once ate the newspaper and got really sick. And so his question is, is with a newspaper, the wet newspaper, which does dry out, would that somehow kind of be a host for the bacteria and stop it from growing on the
+
+[9:03] duck? I don't think so because you never want any sort of any kind of hose for bacteria if you can help it growing next to something that you're going to eat. Like there's no there's no beneficial protection from the newspaper. I wonder whether or not the sickness was because of some sort of poison in the ink, like lead or some sort of crazy nonsense in
+
+[9:19] the ink. I don't know. I mean, it's an interesting question, but I definitely wouldn't eat the newspaper in the future, but the newspaper, even if it's wet, if it's placed against a lot of kosher
+
+[9:28] salt. You shouldn't get too much bacterial growth on it. I think the salt is really what's, by the way, these ducks were rinsed very thoroughly after they were after they were cured before they were cooked. I shouldn't think that the newspaper would help, but it is interesting that your brother got sick. I wonder whether, who knows? Poison made? What do you think? But if he knows it, if it was a GI situation, it was a GI, but very interesting. Thank you for writing it. Okay, now, a question about venison. Hello. Hope you had a good holidays, we did. This is from Andy. He says he was lucky enough to take down a deer. He's a bow hunter, and he took down a deer this year, and he's elbows deep, he says, in venison and he's psyched about it. He patched together a circulator, DIY circulator. The circulator, you know, is what we use to cook things at very accurately precise temperatures, usually in a water bath, but sometimes in fatter oil.
+
+[10:15] And he wants to do a boneless venison loin as his 1st big meal out of it. And then are there any differences in the temperature timing for this as opposed to beef. And he's thinking about 55 degrees Celsius for about an hour or a little longer. Any thoughts? Andy, I think that sounds about right. That's just about the right temperature. Even a shade lower, like 545 or something like that for a tenderloin, usually in beef. I should think that venison would be about the same. The trick with venison in general is, I don't know how old the animal you got was, but if there's any sort of tendency to a livery taste in the meat at all,
+
+[10:47] um, which there shouldn't be in the loin, but, you know, in other cuts of venison, you're definitely going to not want to cook it for too, too
+
+[10:54] long or those livery notes can be accentuated. Sometimes, like when we cooked yak for a long time. Those livery kind of notes gaming notes actually kind of, I think, worked with the, with the, you know, with the meat. But I don't know that you necessarily want that in the venison. The only other question is, is that some meats can feel tender, but then, you know, when you cook them, they're
+
+[11:14] tough even at these low temperatures. But I should think that venison loin isn't going to be that tough. I would cook a small piece of it at 55 for an hour and see whether you like it. I wouldn't go much longer because if it does cook like beef, which I'm assuming it probably will,
+
+[11:28] then it's going to start getting kind of fibry after that and won't be as good. But please write in and tell us how it is. And I'm curious to hear how your homemade circulator works out. Okay. We had another question. This is an anonymous question. I said, why does an egg that we stored in a mason jar with white truffles, not coddle properly? The yolk was cooked perfectly, but the white didn't set up at all. The egg was not very old. If anything, it was only around a week old. Jeez, I've never heard about this. I've done a, I did a preliminary, uh, you know, web search, uh, you know, and scientific literature search. I couldn't find any sort of active principle in, you know, truffles that would stop an egg white from setting. My only theory is, is it, was it stored at room temperature, which would accelerate the breakdown of the, of the white to a thin white and make it so it doesn't set as nicely in a coddle preparation? But other than that, I can't see why a white wouldn't set, whereas the
+
+[12:26] yolk would, because typically the, you know, typically the white would set much earlier. White would set, start setting in and around 60 degrees Celsius at
+
+[12:34] 140 and be, you know, basically custody, nice set at around 62 degrees Celsius.
+
+[12:39] Uh, you know, and then the egg wouldn't start setting, the yolk wouldn't start setting up until, uh, you know, it would be runny at 62 and it would start setting up at
+
+[12:47] 63 get creamy and then get, um, you know, get really firm uh, around 65 or so. Now, you know, uh, there's there's so many recipes for truffled uh, omelets that
+
+[12:58] I, um, I'm curious, it's got to be some sort of weird something going on. Like, was the Mason jart room temperature? I can't think of anything. I can't think of anything. Anyway, but I will definitely ask around. And if any of our readers have heard anything, please, please tell us. The other interesting point that this anonymous caller brings up is that they cook udon noodles at salad for a brunch. And they toss it in Meyer Lemon vinaigrette. They had some left over, and so they decided to dehydrate it and then puff it. And they noticed that the ones that had been soaking in vinegar seemed to puff more than the normal ones that had just been cooked and, you know, blanched and left out and tried. And so is there any question why would they puff bigger with the acid? And I have no idea, actually. It's interesting. I did a preliminary research on that, and I couldn't find anything specifically with acid and puffing, but it might be
+
+[13:45] possible that there's some sort of effect. I mean, acid obviously weakens gluten, but I don't know if it's going to weaken gluten in products that have already been cooked or not. So if you somehow are weakening the gluten structure and the udon hadn't been completely overcooked, because remember when I puff anything, I overcooked the bejesus out of
+
+[14:00] it. So perhaps there's some sort of weakening there and perhaps then it only works on wheat versus on wheat-based noodles versus, for instance,
+
+[14:08] puffing like a tapioca starch or something like that. That would be the that would be the kicker. If you did a test and you said, okay, look, I'm going to do a buckwheat noodle, of
+
+[14:15] course, that has, I'm going to put wheat in that tooth. I'm going to do like tapioca or some other kind of noodle and puff it with an acid and see whether that also works, then if it also puffs more with an acid in that
+
+[14:25] situation, then obviously it's not the gluten. But I hope this anonymous reader will give us some more
+
+[14:30] information because I'd like to, I'd like to experiment on this more. I love observations like this. Maybe we'll learn, maybe we'll all learn something, right? Here we have a caller. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Colin Gore down in DC. I called in a couple weeks ago asking about, uh, you know, possibly using some Pectonex to clear up some sweet potato. Yes, have we talked about that? Because we ran some tests. I couldn't get it to work, even with the centrifuge. Did you get it to work? Um, so I got, basically, I've been toying with it. I have never, like, I've seen a lot of interesting things that, you know, it wasn't what I was going for, but now I'm calling into,
+
+[15:09] like, maybe get some tips on where to go from here. All right, so what was your experience? What did is, so what is that? yeah, what'd you do? me what you did. All right. So what I did was, I mean, 1st thing I did was ran just the sweet potatoes through, uh, remember when we had a champion juicers, so that was perfect. Uh, you know, I, I had never juiced anything that was like a tuber before, but it
+
+[15:34] was, uh, or, you know, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot because they're not like nice and juicy seeming like an apple, but still got like maybe 60%
+
+[15:43] yield. pretty, pretty sweet. at least compared to what I was expecting, right? And then, um, so once you have the juice. Uh, you know, I had it in a glass jar, right? I saw, and you could see that there was a lot of starts settling out. Right. And like a white starchy powder at the bottom. Yeah, well, the funny thing is they get like a white starchy powder and then stuff that is kind of like acts like starch, but is also more like orange, like the
+
+[16:11] potato. Right, like the shells were still kind of adhered to some
+
+[16:17] stuff. I know. I know what you're talking about. We had the same thing happen. Then what'd you do? Then, all right, then, 1st time, I just hit it with some additional
+
+[16:28] amylace, some additional, uh, sorry if it was alpha data. Whatever you get. Yeah, from the home, like at home brew stores, they sell a little... I think they're mixed with it. I think they're actually mixes of off in beta, Emily's pretty sure. I'm not sure. to go look it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, I don't have a note. don't have my notes in front of me, but then I, you know, put it in, sealed it up in a mason jar, put it in a circulator bath to a kind of lower, lower mashing temperature to try to convert a lot of the starches over to
+
+[17:01] sugars, because it's going for like a sugary syrup to, uh, simmer down into a caramel, right? How much are the starch? you agitate it? Um, no, I left it sick because I wanted to start to settle out to the bottom so I could kind of decamp the stuff up. Reb of the emolace, if you had agitated, would actually help break down some of the starch, no? Although maybe not if it's locked. Yeah, that would be that'd be a good plan, yeah. I mean, like, what I would do, like, before we go further, because I want to hear the rest
+
+[17:28] of, what I would do in the next test, I would cook this starch out a little bit, then cool it, then add the amylace, because then you could burst it, because amylace might have,
+
+[17:36] if you have intact cells in there, The amylace is going to have trouble getting to the getting to the starch maybe, unless it's been cooked out of it. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. What kind of temperature range would you say for that 1st step? Ooh, I don't know. I'd have to go look at my, you know, a good book is the, like for starches in general and pasting and all that is, and all this is Egan, Egan Press has a book on starches. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're great. great series of books, all of those... Yeah, yeah, I got the hydrocolors one while back. Yeah, their starchbooks pretty good. Starchbook's good. They're nutritive sweetener books pretty good. And you can get them all for 99 bucks online, actually, if they still run that
+
+[18:13] deal. It's hard to find but you can get them all. So okay, so then what do you do? You settle it out and then what the stuff tastes like? Well, well, so actually, the interesting thing was, uh, you know, I had left it to mash out for a
+
+[18:26] good, long time just to, you know, kind of, uh, I mean, especially because I didn't come back for a day, and
+
+[18:33] unfortunately, what had, what had happened is the water bath had evaporated below the temperature probe.
+
+[18:42] So it ended up just boiling the hell out of that shit. First rule, 1st rule. First rule of running a circulator, folks, out there in internet land is always, always cover your circulator so that you don't, especially on a long
+
+[18:56] cookout to not evaporate all your liquid off. It's a classic classic problem. Yes. Well, the good news is, is that you'll never do that again. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm just glad to cut it in time before I burn, you know, burn out the heating coil or anything,
+
+[19:10] but, but, but the magic thing is that, uh, it looks like this boiling, this like boiling step at the end has caused the kind of sugary syrupy water to separate out in a way that I have not been able to
+
+[19:28] replicate since. Oh, yeah. So, I figured, what, it was just sort of, setting the starches and sort of at the bottom there. Uh, and yeah, that was the only time that I was able to get a very nice kind
+
+[19:43] of uh, translucent caramel out of it. Okay, this is very interesting to me. Uh, the, you gotta try to replicate it. I had the same thing happen once. The worst thing in the world is when you're cooking, and you do something wrong, and you
+
+[19:57] don't, and you don't aren't able to like, you know, replicate it, and you love the
+
+[20:02] result. This has happened to me. I made a durian caramel by accident and a pressure cooker that was incredible. Like had no sulfur note, tasted like durian, but wasn't offensive to like the most mild
+
+[20:13] Western noses, awesome rich, not burnt. And we went through probably 15, 15 durian trying to get that back and we've never been able to do it. So I wish you better luck with the, you, we should try. We'll try some of the beta Amalyst now families to say that we can replicate. But I definitely wish you more luck in replicating it. And you should call back again and tell us, tell us what happens. Right now, though, we have to go. that I have to go to a break. We're going to a break. But call back and tell us what happens, Khan. We're interested in cooking issues. How you feel, bro? You feel good. Get so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fellas? Hey, jam. Sure, getting down. Look down. We're gonna have a punk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again? We gotta take you home. And welcome back to cooking issues. Call in all your cooking questions too, 718-497-2128,
+
+[21:42] 718-4972128, Jack in the control room tells me that we might be able to go a little bit long today because we had some questions come in over the New Year's break.
+
+[21:50] By the way, speaking of New Year's break. I know, I know, we have not been writing a lot. When I say we, I mean, me, have not been writing a lot in the blog recently. I just wanted to spend some time with my family over the holidays, all right? No, we're going to get back on the stick and we'll, you know, I'll be writing some stuff real soon, we hope.
+
+[22:09] So, please, no, no hate mail about how I haven't been writing anything. Okay. Speaking of sweet potatoes, we had a, you know, Colin called in with a sweet potato question, we have
+
+[22:20] an actually a question about sweet potatoes, which is good. And it comes from Eliza Kwanbeck, and she writes, my boyfriend and I have been having an ongoing discussion about the difference between
+
+[22:31] tarot, tapioca, manioc, yam, and sweet potato. They spend a summer backpacking through Southeast Asia, taking cooking courses in every country we pass through. Yeah, sounds nice. Yeah it does. I'd like to do that. And in Malaysian Borneo, we took a cooking class and made Berber cha-cha, which sounds awesome. I've never had it or heard of it, but I'll eat anything called burber cha-cha, which is a coconut yam taro porridge flavored with pondan leaves. I love pondan. Pondan is a leaf that has a little bit of a kind of a vanilla taste for those of you that don't know. You can get it in Southeast Asian groceries to Thai groceries, you know, anything like that. And, um, it comes usually frozen, and sometimes the frozen one can have a little bit of a fishy taste when it's thawed out, but it's used in a lot of dessert
+
+[23:08] prep. And we used to make a really good sugar cookie out of it. Instead of vanilla, we basically blitzed the leaves with butter, heated it, and decanted the butter off and used that to make cookies, and they were like this amazing green color, like pistachio green color, and with
+
+[23:25] like that pond on, pond on flavor, you can't, you know, really replicate without the
+
+[23:29] leaves because I think the extracts are crap, you know, the flavorings. Anyway, that's off topic, but delicious. And so, you know, she basically got into a bunch of arguments about, you know, what these different things are, what the different starches are, where they come from,
+
+[23:44] et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All right, Eliza. First of all, this has given me a great opportunity to pump a series of books that I think everyone should own as many of
+
+[23:53] as they can. And it's the Brooklyn Botanic Garden that is Brooklyn Botanic Garden series, and they have a series of small guides that are all really, really cheap.
+
+[24:03] You can get them online. Actually, if you go to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. If you become a member, they send you like 10 for nothing and they're like, you can get them for like 5 to 12 bucks. I mean, they're amazing. But the one I'm going to talk about today, and it has snappy titles, which I really enjoy. I like a snappy title. It's called Buried Treasures, Tasty Tubers of the World. And what I like about these guides is you can read them kind of in one, you know, quick session, you know, I don't know, when you're sitting on the hopper or something. It's only like a 100 pages, a lot of good pictures, a lot of good information. And so I read it this morning, not on the hopper, please. And, uh, but I recommend that series. They also have a really good book called The Best Apples to buy and grow. Sexual. But here's my, and they have a lot of really more rare, interesting tubers, corms, rhizomes, everything in that book that you can go take a look at. But here's the quick breakdown. I know I'm going to get some of this wrong, so please no hate mail. You can just correct me if I'm wrong. The sweet potato, which I can't possibly pronounce the Latin name. It's like, Ipamoya, batatas. I can pronounce it, butatas. Anyway, sweet potato is from South America. It's been cultivated for many, many years, like 10,000 years. Um, you know, it went early pre-Colombian times, probably to Polynesia. And then, you know, after, you know, the kind of, you know, great Colombian seed exchange, whatever, went the other way over to Africa. It's grown all over the world. They grow a lot of it in China. It's fed to pigs, they make starcha for noodles. It's also it's, you know, incredibly delicious. The white varieties of it are still just a sweet potato. The baniatos are still, they're just sweet potatoes. They're the same style, different cult of ours. They're less sweet. That is a sweet potato. Everything, usually in a New York, in a, sorry, in a United States supermarket, things labeled yams are actually sweet
+
+[25:53] potatoes. Luckily, the US government requires it somewhere on the box. It also says sweet potato, even if it says yam. Okay? The actual yam, uh, diascaria alata is from East Asia. But it made it to Africa well over a 1000 years ago, and then from there to the West Indies, you know, in, I
+
+[26:11] guess, the 1500s or so. There's many, many varieties of it. The yam is distinct, right? The yam, unlike the sweet potato, which can be eaten raw, the yam has to be cooked. okay? You have to cook again. You can't eat it raw. I don't really know much about yam starch. I think most of the stuff that I see is starch is sweet potato starch, which is entirely different from potato starch, entirely different from tapioca manioc cassava
+
+[26:35] starch, okay? So that's kind of sweet potato versus yam. Now, tarot, right? Colocasia Esculenta, right? You have to like, you have to cook that stuff because it contains some calcium oxalade, I think. It's a corm. It comes from India, but went to Southeast Asia a long, long, long, long, long time ago, right? That's what tarot chips are made out of in Hawaii, that's what poi is made out of. tarot cakes you get in China. Like that's all tarot, right? There's a different thing called giant tarot, right? That's from Sri Lanka that went also to the Pacific Islands, also needs to be cooked because of calcium oxalate. And if you eat it, it'll like it'll taste like 1000s of sharp little needles and it's very unpleasant. And, you know, it's very, you know, don't want to do it. You want to cook it to get rid of it. Sometimes you want to cook it, you want to cook it. I think that's where a pinch of baking soda helps neutralize it, I think. I'm not sure I don't I don't do a lot of work on it. Okay, then, uh, kind of the answer to tarot from uh, the South America is uh, Youdia, right? It's the same family as tarot. And so basically, like at Youdia and tarot, you can kind of interchange those 2 things, right? So anyway, so that's that. Now, an entirely separate ball of wax is the, and these are all the same damn thing, just from different different names, different places. manioc, cassava, tapioca, and yucca, right? Those are all uh, mannahad-esqualenta. I can't pronounce any of this, so please don't come back on me. These are like, you know, relatively recent, i.e. like a 1000 BC. They're all this from South America, but it spread all over the world. Like, now there's 2 kinds, right? There's the, there's the, the sweet kind and then the not sweet kind, and then they all contain certain amounts of compounds that turn into cyanide.
+
+[28:17] So you definitely want to cook them, but all the varieties usually you buy in the supermarkets now, you know, you can just cook them and eat them. You don't need to like grind them, soak them overnight to get rid of the cyanide compounds and wash them and then, you know,
+
+[28:31] and process them. But in the old, in the old days, you did or, or, um, you die. Anyway, but most of the varieties that are cultivated now, you don't have to do that. And so that's where tapioca starch comes from, which is what they make the little pearls out of in bubble
+
+[28:44] tea, to the best of my knowledge. And it's also what, you know, tapioca starch is very interesting. It's a different shaped starch from many other starches. It's got a characteristic what's called kettle drum shape. You're going to want to look, a good source for different starches is National Starch Corporation and or the International Starch Council, I think. It has a website. And Egan Press mentioned earlier, a book on Starches, which you can get from the American Association of
+
+[29:09] serial chemists, has good stuff on tapioca stars. But tapioca starch, aside from its interesting kettle drum shape, is
+
+[29:16] world-renowned for being very bland, so it doesn't cause a lot of flavoring to, you know, to things because it's bland. It also is used in puff snacks because it has very good expansion properties because it has a
+
+[29:28] nice amylose amylopectin breakdown. So, you know, Anyway, also, those things, yucca manioca, cassava tapioca, you'll often find a thick coating of wax over it because if not, they kind of
+
+[29:41] turn to crap pretty quick in the supermarket. So how is that noastasia? It was very informative. Quick, quick rundown. Make any make any dang sense at all? It did. Did. All right. Let's take another break. All right, so listen, we're going to take another commercial break, but calling your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You feel good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, jam. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. You wanna do it again? You wanna do it, yeah. You gotta take your heart.
+
+[30:57] Brother? Now I want everybody. Let's bread blow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, that's going through that we did it now, all right? All right You don't get that fella with a little horn. You know, we're gonna talk this cooking issues. Welcome back. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. We actually had a question about our songs, and we're going to talk about them later. For those of you that actually know that song already, which, oh, I won't spoil it. I won't spoil it. Okay. So we had a question about carbonation, one of my favorite things. I've never actually written about it on the blog. I guess just because most of the research I'd done on carbonation. I did kind of so long before I had the blog that I just never bothered writing about it,
+
+[31:36] but, you know, maybe someday, if I ever get the time, we'll write a primer on it. Again, I will write a prime run is what I mean to say. So the question is, do you have any thoughts about the EC slash ISI, like both are correct, but I think they're moving towards Nastasia, which one
+
+[31:52] is they're moving towards EC? Do you have any thoughts on the AC twist and sparkle carbonation system? It seems like it solves a lot of the problems you have with soda siphons, and it's cheaper and smaller than the soda stream, but still does use small cartridges. Long term, I'd like to get a system with a £20 CO2 tank. And this is from Sam. And yes, Sam, you should get a £20 CO2 tank at the very minimum, a £5 CO2 tank, Sam, minimum. Anyway, but I'm a student and I'll probably be moving a few times in the next few years. So it's not practical to purchase at the moment. I'm also considering as a gift for my parents who buy fizzy water by the case, but are not going to be interested in driving around with big CO2 takes. Hey, they're not that big, Sam. They're not that big. I live in a tiny, tiny apartment, right? I live in an 800 square foot apartment with 2 rambunctious kids,
+
+[32:39] and I have, not one, but 220 CO2 tanks in there. Anyway, I'm not saying you have to do it. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm just saying, you can do it. I know you can do it, Sam. Anyway, a couple more questions. I can't seem to find the answers to how much water can I carbonate with the acreum cartridges the system comes with? Are the cartridges proprietary? Can they purchase more cheaply from someone besides EC or in bulk? and how well does it work? Okay. Uh, I can't tell you that you can buy it from someone else, but all of those cartridges are
+
+[33:07] pretty much, uh, pretty much the same. Um, EC's, you know, guarantee. I shouldn't say this. my butt handed to me by the EC corporation because I'm friends with those guys. But, uh, you know, they claim that their cartridges are all very accurately weighed out, uh,
+
+[33:19] et cetera, et cetera. They're very pure. You can only get really one bottle of water out of the 8 gram cartridge, and therein is the rub. So for me, it's more of for bars who don't want to invest in a carbonation system to maybe do drinks. And for me to really carbonate a drink. It's going to take 2 cartridges because I have to blast off some of the stuff. And so I'd hate to say this, but I think if you're going to make a lot of seltzer at home, uh, and you want a smaller system that, you know, it's going to cost a lot very quickly to run through cartridges if you're actually drinking a lot of soda water,
+
+[33:50] and uh, Isi's going to come tear my head off, but I would definitely, in that situation, if you don't want to go for a 5 or £20
+
+[33:57] CO2 tank, I would go for the soda screen. I'm going to get my butt handed to me. That's okay. You're telling the truth. But I would go for the soda stream. I know many people that have it who don't want to have the £520 CO2 tanks, you get a lot more charges out of the, um, out of the refill, um, because you're just
+
+[34:14] going to go, you're going to run through CO2 cartridges, like the end of the world is coming with, uh, with the twist and sparkle. Now, the advantage of the Twist and Sparkle, is that you can do liquor and other things in
+
+[34:23] it that they tell you with the, uh, with the soda stream that you can't do because of foaming problems. I've never, I don't own a soda stream, but I'm thinking that I can modify one to do drinks like pretty cheaply just by adding a little extended tube to it, but I would definitely consider getting the,
+
+[34:39] um, you can get the starting level, um, soda stream, I think, for under $100, like $79. And I think it'd pay for itself pretty quick in terms of in terms of chargers. But I've probably just cut off my nose despite my face. We probably will never work for EC again. But Sam, those are my, those are my feelings. Oh, it works it works fine. As long as you chill it, really, really chill your liquids, keep your levels
+
+[35:04] accurate, but I usually put 2 chargers in to really get a really strong charge in
+
+[35:09] it because I like it really, really, really fizzy. And so I really feel like you're going to blast your cartridges with it. I can't believe I'm saying this on here because I'm going to get in trouble. Anyway, here we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hi, I'm Brian. I'm calling from San Francisco Happy New Year to you, Dave. Happy New Year. Thank you. So I have 2 questions, um, which are unrelated. Um, I'm hoping you can answer um, them both. Um, so I'll ask them both uh, right now. Um, and the 1st question is regarding um, distillation. I've noticed that there's a lot of kind of distillation equipment. I guess I'm sort of interested in making my own kinds of essential oils. I bought, um, a number of essential oils from, um, from
+
+[35:53] Andy Aftel in the past, um, and now I'm. Friend of cooking issues, by the way. Should, pardon me? Friend of cooking issues, by the way, Mandy Aftel. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And, um, have, uh, have, um, and I've used them, and they're, they're really delicious, and so now I'm interested in sort of making my own. Um, and I'm wondering what kind of setup you might recommend to, um, begin to, uh, start, um,
+
+[36:19] doing making my own essential oils and um, hydrosols. So that's question number one. And the 2nd question, um, has to do with Paxton, um, which is, I've tried making my
+
+[36:30] own, um, patch of free, and I haven't had a lot of success, um, and I've used a couple of different, um, supermarket pectins, um, over the counter. Um, I've done some reading and one was said that Surto, which was a liquid kind. I tried and, um, that was supposed to be okay and the other was like Pomona's or Ramona's or something, something like that. Um, and that that was just the work, but I haven't had any success. Um, so I'm hoping that you might be able to, um, give a
+
+[37:01] little, humming with that and give a little one on one on, on Tectins, and some sources for getting them. So let's go in reverse. What's your problem with it? Um, not setting. Huh. Not setting. And you're making sure that your acid levels are high enough and your sugar levels are high
+
+[37:17] enough? I mean, the main thing with pectins. I mean, I used it for like kumquat. You know, so it was pretty high acid. And but what about the sugar levels? It was still pretty high. I mean, maybe, and I boiled it for a while. Right. I don't have off the top of my head what the numbers are, but regular pectin in order to set needs very high solids level
+
+[37:40] and, you know, which means like a lot of sugars and also acids. Kumquat should be acidic enough to set it. Then the question is, is how high is the solids level, which is going to be then determined by the temperature. Now, presumably you're taking the temperature high enough that your solids level is
+
+[37:58] going to be high enough. That could be a source of the problem, not taking the temperature high enough. Or if you took the temperature high enough, then adding another liquid that's going to dilute it back down below the solids level where it's going to set properly.
+
+[38:11] Um, You know, the, the different pections you can get, a lot of times they're going to be Apple-based or citrus-based. Um, it, I don't, I don't know any of the store brands. I've never used any of them. You know, I tend to use more of like the weirder ones for kind of
+
+[38:29] hydrocoloid applications because that's what people ask me for. And those ones you can use in lower solids and with lower sugars, but they require things like calcium to set.
+
+[38:37] That's one of the pectums they use for kind of low sugar jams and things like that. Those are like, you know, um, There's different kinds of like
+
+[38:44] low, low methoxyamity, LMA, you might hear a call. What kind of calcium do you, or how do you recommend adding the calcium to those? Oh, you just add, like, you know, like a, like a blue canate. I use calcium lactate glucinate, but it's taste. It doesn't require that much. And there's a there's low methoxy pecked in. The problem is, it's very sensitive to calcium levels so that, you know, if you put too much, it's a problem put to
+
+[39:05] little, and there's low methoxy amidated, which is like less, it's a little more bulletproof. But regular pectin should work unless you don't have a solids content high enough, which means you're like not cooking to a high enough temperature. There's the only thing I can think of. When you say solids content. What do you mean by that? So, in other words, like the, you know, your jelly is a certain percent. Let's just break it. Forget all the flavors, right? There's acid, whatever, blah, blah, blah, but it's a certain percent sugar and a certain percent water, right? And so you need to have the solids content, i.e. sugar content high enough for the pectant to gel properly. I mean, that's kind of like, that's what pectin needs. So the 2 classic things to go wrong with pectin-based things are you don't have enough, the solids levels aren't high enough. The sugars aren't high enough or the acid level's not high enough. And those are the 2 kinds of things that you always want to want to look to first. Now, what was the 1st question again? Because I had an answer to it in my head. It has to do with distillation and essential oils. Okay. Now, a lot of people want to use like the stuff that I have, like a rotary evaporator, all the kinds of things for distillation for essential oil. Well, not too much money. Yes, also, but also not effective. What you want to do for that is steam distillation, right? And so in a steam distillation setup, I mean, that's what I would buy. I've never done essential oil distillation, but I've considered buying a rig for it. And the good news is they're cheap and they're fairly effective. And what you're doing then is you're packing a column with your product and you're basically
+
+[40:30] boiling and steam is going through it, rupturing the cells and the steam is carrying with it the essential oils, recondensing on the other side, the oils will float to the top or some to the bottom
+
+[40:40] depends, some are actually heavier than water, right? And the stuff and the stuff that is left over that's water is the hydrosol. And so it's actually, um, you know, the main problem is your yields usually are quite low, but it's definitely something that
+
+[40:52] can be done. legal, it's not illegal to do because you're not using alcohol for it. You're using water. And so I would go definitely check out steam distillation. You should be able to get a whole small rig to test on eBay, the parts for
+
+[41:07] it for under 100 bucks. You just want to make sure, you know, Well, I saw that there was some that were vacuum distillation. Um, there was a couple rigs that were, you know, under 200 bucks. For essential oils? It didn't say, I mean, they were sort of chemistry type of type of equipment. I just typed in, um, steam distillation, uh, vacuum steam distillation, and there was a couple things that popped up on, on Amazon, actually. Um,
+
+[41:35] and, I mean, they're not, they're not rotary evaporators, but would, in, in that case, could you see, you know, uh, it being done under vacuum being, being
+
+[41:44] helpful. Well, I think it might, I've never done the test, but I think it might actually be detrimental. I mean, I can't, I get oils across when I'm doing rotovap distillation sometimes, but it's very small quantities and they're dissolved. Obviously, they're dissolved in alcohol because I'm doing it in alcohol and a lot of these things are soluble in alcohol to a certain degree. Uh, and I do get uzo kind of affects uh, when I water stuff down in some stuff, so you know there is oil in there, right? But, you know, I think that the high temperature of the steam, which is helping to rupture the cells is
+
+[42:14] a benefit for the steam distillation, and I think that you might not get that kind of
+
+[42:21] action if you put it under a vacuum. Because the main thing a vacuum is going to do for you is lower the temperature, which everything boils. Now, you can get a more gentle result that way, but I don't think you're going to get,
+
+[42:30] I don't think you're going to get a high enough yield of essential oil to really have it be worthwhile. I don't know. Now, you could try the, you know, the one thing for central oil extraction that I've tried only once or twice, but haven't really had success with is butane extraction, which is used by potheads for
+
+[42:49] doing for, you know, making honey oil out of swag weed.
+
+[42:53] And, uh, you know, and I have it, and honeybee is the extractor that you use for that. And I've tried it once and I wasn't able to get a good result, but that's another thing I like to try, but I would definitely go for a regular standard steam distillation rig, which is pretty
+
+[43:08] cheap, and I think you're going to get good results. I haven't I haven't done enough experimentation to figure out how to do it at a low temperature. Do you know what I mean? Okay. And the ones that are produced aren't really produced at a low temperature, unless they're super critical fluid CO2 extracted stuff anyway. And that's beyond most of our reaches. Mine included, you know what I mean? Okay, great. Sounds within within my price range and worth experimenting with. Definitely. And write back or call us and tell us how it works, all right? I will, Dave. Okay, thanks a lot. All right. Bye. Okay, Jack, should we go to another one or should I just finish out our questions? What do you think? Should we go to another break or should I finish out my questions? No, I'll keep going. Keep going. Nice. Okay. So Ken, who wrote us about the Araby, Aeropress, the Aeropress coffee, he wrote back, just basically talking to us about the Aeropressiera
+
+[43:59] Press, for those of you know, was invented by the guy that invented the Araby. And it's basically a piston that you put coffee
+
+[44:06] in, and then you apply pressure to the piston and you force the water through the, like a puck brewing puck. And it makes
+
+[44:13] basically supposedly a very high quality of, like a mocha style coffee, not true espresso. And then, but, um, Ken writes that there's this interesting
+
+[44:23] thing, he says, some AeroPress power users dramatically increase the danger or the drama of using an AeroPress by, and
+
+[44:30] they're only 40 bucks. We got to order one. I meant to make a mental note to order one before I showed up on Amazon, so I could say I've ordered it. They were going to let us borrow theirs? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, some Aeropress power usually dramatically increase the danger of using Aeropress by brewing with the machine upside down and using a polyester or metal filter instead of the paper filter to take full advantage of the bloom. the oil, you know, the coming out coffee oil, uh, that has uh, some yummies in it, and you can preserve them by brewing upside down and flipping the device over on
+
+[44:57] end. I suspect at least some people understandably conflate bloom with crema or maybe the benefits of crema. And very interesting. I hadn't thought about this. And basically the point is, is that let's say you're a, let's say you are a French press person, right? So you take coffee and you push, and he points me to a website, which then I'll just read a little bit from the
+
+[45:16] website, and this is from, I didn't write down the person's name. You know why? because I'm an idiot. Oh, Scott Markhart. Anyway, the AeroPress gives its user unprecedented control over brewing variables, yielding a great cup of coffee, but there's trouble in paradise.
+
+[45:30] It has a shortcoming. Fans of the venerable French press will understand immediately because they are accustomed to a cup that offers a complex flavor of coffee's natural oils. They are lost in paper filtration systems like the AeroPress. On the other hand, many people do not enjoy the fines that a French press delivers in the brew. They embitter the bottom of the cup as they cause overextraction there, and they have a bad mouth feel. So we're caught between a rock and a hard place. And so what he does is he flips the arrow press over, runs it in reverse. And I've always had a lot of problems with French press in general, one of which is that you can pack the
+
+[45:58] grounds down at the bottom. The other is that they don't offer temperature control, which is dumb. The only attempt at a temperature controlled thing similar to a French press was the clover and that costs like $17,000 or something absurd like that. Tell Starbucks
+
+[46:09] bottom. I don't even know who the heck has them anymore. Anyway, um, So that's an interesting question. So now I mentally this morning spent an hour or so just sitting around thinking about, um, I don't know how to make a French press slash
+
+[46:24] Araby that had all of the good results that without having, you know, stuff spraying all over my shirt. So Ken, there definitely will be more thinking and talking on the AeroPress and
+
+[46:34] its kin in the future. I'm definitely going to be researching that in the new year. Okay. Now, uh, sorry, folks, uh, flipping through the uh, flipping through the thing. We have, uh, by the way, if you call in the next 10 seconds, I will give you a free pork
+
+[46:52] chop and you will have the last, an item made that up. But I will. I'll give them a free pork shop. Anyway, we had an interesting question, and it's a non-cooking related question, and I think I'll round out on that. and making sure that I'm not missing anyone else's questions. Oh, I am missing someone's questions. Sorry, folks. We have Howard from Montreal writes in and say he just started listening to the show over the holidays and he's loving every minute of it. Thank you. And he basically listened to the Berlin show and he was, we talked then about a mixture of sodium chloride and calcium chloride to reduce sodium intake.
+
+[47:25] And he says that his aunt uses this. And basically, he's wondering whether or not, we were talking about like adding ions to things to basically increase the volatiles, et cetera, et cetera. And he was saying, I'll just read it word for word rather than try to paraphrase it because I'm butchering what he's trying to say. So, uh, the effects I'm talking about, altering the solubility of volatiles, brining meat, bread, all seem to be related, ionic strength of the liquid, the higher the ionic strength, the more polar the aqueous phase, which in turn drives off organic, similarly in high
+
+[47:54] onic strengths will alter the tertiary structure of protein, such as gluten and bread. The brine process is slightly different, but the salts are driven into the meat, et cetera, et cetera. Assuming this theory is true. Any soluble compound should be used instead of salt to achieve these effects. However, I think the shielding affects the salt ions play an important role in the disruption of tertiary protein structure, as such, KCL should be a close substitute for NACL, although
+
+[48:14] MGCL 2 might be preferred in certain situations, but then you run into coagulations due to the divalent,
+
+[48:20] cadaan, magnesium divalient, cadaan. Anyway, what are your thoughts? I don't have that many thoughts on it, only to say that, um, it's not only, um, I, I, you know, Howard, I just wanted to read this because I'm not ignoring your question.
+
+[48:35] I haven't, I haven't thought about it. I don't have enough time to think about it on air right now, right? Nostasia. But I will think more about it. Obviously, there's certain things that different cat ions, for instance, calcium has specific results with specific in specific systems like hydrocoloids, sodium has a certain
+
+[48:53] result, but obviously just shifting the ionic balance of whatever you're going to do with is going to mess with the protein structure. But I haven't thought enough about it to really know. But yes, you know, for instance, when you're brining something, actually kind of like polyphosphates, like tend to like even alter the water binding protein, water binding of protein more than regular sodium, like sodium
+
+[49:15] polyphosphates tend to alter the binding quite a bit more. So they're not probably all the same, but yes, they all work somewhat. Now, sorry, that's like a long rambling, like, bunch of stuff from Dave Arnold in the New Year's having his brain go on Fritz in the middle of the radio, but here's a question I can
+
+[49:32] answer, and it comes from Paul. And it's not a cooking related question. It's one of the 2 pieces of music on the cooking issues radio show podcast. And it's interesting. He thinks it's fish is fish is vodka, is the intro, is what he said, which I love fish is fish. It's a great book. I used to read that to my kids all the time. Fish is fish. And we're going to have a fun, good time, which is the one that is in the middle of the show.
+
+[49:55] And you haven't had much luck Googling the songs. Okay, I'm going to do it in reverse. The one in the middle is doing it to death by James Brown. Sometimes called Have a Funky Good Time, but that's not what it is. It's called doing it to Death. And that song was released in 1973. and it's with the JBs and it's got, it's amazing. It's got Macio Parker, it's got Fred Thomas. And the reason James Brown got me through many, many, many years, like late nights in the studio, welding at 4 in the morning, I would crank songs like that to get me kind of like over the hump when you're passing out into your welding
+
+[50:30] mask as you're, you know, building like large sculptures alone, which you should never do. You should always have someone with you in the shop when you're working. But doing it to death is one of those songs that, you know, it's just, it's just so tight and he beats on a rhythm so
+
+[50:44] long. And she's a, gang, gang. It just like minutes of this boom, jam. And so like, you know, like that kind of song just keeps me going and it's what's famous for, even though we never play it on this section on the radio. It's famous for a section, his song's in F. And in the middle of the song, James Brown, like, says, okay, we're going to take it to D, Down D, Funky D, and then boom, D,
+
+[51:06] band. they take it down to D, and it's just an amazing, like, it's an amazing transition, and it's like all of other, you know, great James Brown
+
+[51:14] songs, is that he can take it to a really high level and then change it and somehow that goes into an even higher level. I mean, like he's a he's a miracle was dead now. Miracle worker with bridges like that. And so it was incredibly influential to me from a musical standpoint. And so I had to pick a James Brown song and we chose doing it, doing it to death. And so you can, you can find it, find it there. And maybe sometime next time we'll play the Down D, Funky D, Skanky D,
+
+[51:41] Down D part, which is fantastic. By the way, you know, I guess it doesn't mean you're a bad person if you don't like James Brown,
+
+[51:49] right? No, yeah, it doesn't mean you're... No, but it definitely means there is something wrong with your funk motor. The intro song is a little known song by Amos Milburn called Vicious Vicious Vodka, although I like
+
+[52:05] Fish is Fish is Vodka quite a bit. And Amos Milburn, who died in 1980, became somewhat popular in Los Angeles after World War
+
+[52:13] II. And he wrote a lot of songs about liquor. And, you know, vicious, vicious vodka is actually not one of his best known ones, but he had
+
+[52:21] his bad, bad whiskey is a great song. Um, but a lot of songs about drinking. He also wrote a famous song called The Chicken Shack. And he was kind of a contemporary of other people like Louis Jordan or Charles Brown, who did some amazing work, you know, Louis Jordan, you might
+
+[52:37] know from beans and cornbread or actually not famous. I'm just picking food songs. But Amos Milburn. His best known song is actually not best known by him, and it's one scotch, one
+
+[52:47] bourbon, and one beer, which you probably know the John Lee Hooker version of, and not the Amos
+
+[52:51] Milburn version of. So apparently he did not actually have an alcohol problem, although all of his songs
+
+[52:58] were like he did another one. I think he did milk and water, which is basically means I'm not drinking right now because I'm back on milk and water because the doctor says that my liver will fall out if I continue to drink.
+
+[53:08] So that is vicious, vicious vodka or in my head now forever. Fish is fish is vodka. Come back next week and listen to us. Cooking issues.
+
+[53:24] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you dirty rat. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. I had a chance to swap you. For a little gym. Now when my baby sees me. She's gonna bust my head. Use math to make the world a better place. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and find solutions to the world's most pressing challenges. As an actuary, the only thing higher than the pay is the satisfaction.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] The following episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Tech Serve. This January responsibly dispose of your old electronics at one of 10 e-waste recycling events held across 4 boroughs of New York City, hosted by Tech Serve and the
+
+[0:14] Lower East Side Ecology Center. Computers, printers, monitors, and lots of other electronics are being accepted for safe and proper
+
+[0:22] recycling. Visit www.techserve.com slash recycling for more information and drop off location details.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to a late starting cooking issues. I apologize to all the cooking issues listeners, for being so late. I was stopped by the New York City subway system today, which decided it would take more than an hour to take me from my house in Manhattan to
+
+[0:54] Bushwick here at Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, which I should only be a half hour ride. Uh, I could have run about twice as fast and stash. What do you think? And then to top it off, what made it even more fun was as I was running from the subway station to the pizzeria, I nearly stepped in an eviscerated pigeon. I saw that. Oh, yeah, yeah. And there was a dog outside the pizzeria tied up on a leash so long, and it hated me so
+
+[1:21] much because I was running, I guess I thought I was frightened, that I had to literally jump out of the way of its lunging
+
+[1:26] teeth as it was flying towards my jugular. Awesome. So, uh, an inauspicious start twice, so, uh, it's gonna be slightly abbreviated because we do have a show coming in at one. Call in all your questions too. What's the numbers to us? 718-497-2128. Am I right, Jack? That's 718. What is it? 497-2128. So call in all your questions, but make it snappy because, uh, unfortunately, we're going to have an abbreviated cooking issues this week. Okay, so our 1st question comes in, anonymously, via tweet deck, whatever tweet
+
+[2:00] deck is. Uh, and uh, he or she says, uh, cooking issues has a brace the equipment of the stoner in various ways from the spice grinder to the smoking gun,
+
+[2:08] et cetera. So maybe it's time for a fair trade back. I know it might be a touchy subject on air, but I thought I'd try for some insight. After having surgery a year ago, I can no longer partake in the smoking of anything. I guess presumably marijuana is what is going to be asked about, but I occasionally bake cook with it, meaning marijuana. People who write about marijuana are so cagey with what they're talking about, and since I don't actually smoke it or bake with it or do anything with it, I have no problem talking about it,
+
+[2:36] which we're talking about marijuana here. Anyway, okay. So I occasionally bake cook with it as a substitute to smoking. Google hasn't provided any answers as to what temperature, THC, that's, what's that, Tetra, Tetrahydroconaminol, right? is extracted into fat. And while the double boiler method is fine. This means putting your marijuana finely ground into butter in a double boiler and cooking it. I have an immersion circulator who is curious as to which temperature I could utilize the low temp of the immersion circulator to more effectively and with less attention, replace a double boiler with low temp method.
+
+[3:09] Well, I don't think there's a specific temperature. I did some research yesterday. There's not a specific temperature, which THE is extracted, just increasing the temperature increased the extraction rate of THC. There are some people who say that storing high temperature for too long can degrade some of the THC, but then I have some other sources that
+
+[3:28] say cooking your oil at a much higher temperature, actually, can take some types of pot and actually increase their potency, presumably by taking THC that has a carboxyl group on an acid, decarboxylating
+
+[3:44] it, and then converting it into THC. But I don't I don't know about that. I would say that you're going to be really good if you use a vacuum bag, it should treat us like a cooking problem, right? If you use a vacuum bag, you're going to get the fat more injected into the leaf. And so I would assume you get a faster, better, more complete extraction. Um, I haven't really done any experiments in this, but I encourage anyone else
+
+[4:08] to do write in. It's been about an hour, an hour and a half looking for it, but I also didn't get anything specific.
+
+[4:14] I would just set your circulator to like 85 C with a bag. Make sure you squeeze the bag, a bunch to get agitation, agitation seems important, and let us know how it works, Mr. or Mrs. Tweet deck. We have a color? Okay, call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Howdy. Quick question. Over Christmas break, my mom made a scallop of potatoes and she's had mixed results before with graying of the potatoes. I mean, she's using unreactive cookware,
+
+[4:43] cordingware. I mean, is this a, does she need to put the potato slices in the scidulated water 1st or what's going on there? Oh, yeah, so when you say graying, you mean kind of the color that you get when potatoes are leaving out kind of a
+
+[4:55] bluish, gray, blackish blue. Blueish gray. almost, I mean, not quite black, but getting, yeah, just looking a little, you know,
+
+[5:02] it tasted fine, but it just looked a little scary. Yeah, I think your analysis is pretty much right on here. I think what's happening is the heat isn't getting to them fast enough to cook them before the enzymes in them have a chance to start working on
+
+[5:17] them and turning them brown. I've never tried. although I don't know why I feel silly saying this. I've never tried doing something like scorbic acid as an attempt to prevent that sort of enzymatic
+
+[5:28] browning because usually my technique is to just keep them submerged in water until I'm ready until I'm ready to cook, but that's not really an option in the
+
+[5:35] gratin. I mean, is it in a really slow oven? It's not a convection oven. It's a conventional, yeah, that might have something to do with it. You know, I think it's also quite interesting that you say that it's in Corning because Corning is going to obviously transmit the heat to the potatoes slower.
+
+[5:52] then, you know, if it goes in cold. Now, it'll transmit it like a champ if you preheat it, but then it becomes a pain to layer the gratin into the dish when you're
+
+[6:02] going. Um, you know, if you minimize exposure to oxygen, make sure that all the uh, all the potato pieces are coated in kind of uh, in, you know, the sauce or whatever before you go, that might not be an option with the recipe you're using. I mean, you could try a little ascorbic acid. I'd be curious whether or not it works. Obviously, a pre-blanch would work, but then that's kind of a hassle to have to pre-blanch your potato slices before you do
+
+[6:23] it. You know, but I would just make sure that before you assemble that the chips are stored under water for as long a
+
+[6:31] period, or you know, or use as quickly as possible because that's also going to save you some some browning. Um, I don't know. Do you think any of these are the actual culprit or what? Your guess is as good as mine. Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, I think in the future, I'll always advisor to just try
+
+[6:48] the, uh, the situated water, I guess. Yeah, but I wouldn't, I mean, the problem is you don't want the thing to taste like lemons. I would get ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C. Or you can get, um, if you, uh, you know, go to a natural food store, but a place that deals with dehydrators. They make sodium meta by sulfite, which is some people use as, you know, as a antioxidant as
+
+[7:11] well. But I wouldn't use lemon juice because I think it's really going to kind of mar the flavor of what you're looking for. And even ascorbic, ascorbic acid, you know, has some flavor, but just not very much, and you would need a relatively small amount of it. Because remember, you only need it to last until it gets hot enough to kill the enzymes anyway, and then you're good to go. Yeah. All right. And so try a faster pan, try preheating the Pyrex, try using ascorbic acid, but let us let us know what happens, see whether or not any of our guesses were on the money, all right?
+
+[7:36] Awesome, Dave. we'll keep you updated All right, cool. Now, we have a question. It comes in from Tucker saying on yesterday's radio show, yesterday. Well, last week's radio show, Dave mentioned a modification to a soda stream to deal with foaming and carbonating things other than water. I got one because my girlfriend goes through a liter of soda water, only a liter. Does. Only Wimpy. Come on, get your girlfriend to start drinking liquids. Christ sakes. I tried carbonating a couple of white wines, which foam too much to get very carbonated. What would the modification do the soda stream be to solve this problem? Okay, 1st of all, you're gonna, uh, in order to make a white wine taste as carbonated as water, you're gonna need to actually put more bubbles into it because, uh, wine, anything with alcohol in it, tends to absorb
+
+[8:20] more uh, CO2 for the same level of sensation on your tongue, right? Which means that you're going to have to have the wine to be very cold. So the 1st trick you're going to have to do is not try to carbonate white wine when it's right out of the, you know, just out of the fridge because that's probably not going to be cold enough. I would get it ice cold. ice cold, okay? Ice cold. And then I would put it into the soda screen machine. It is going to foam. Anything that has kind of surface active properties like that is going to foam a lot more than your typical than water. Water is the only thing that we really carbonate a lot that doesn't foam at all. So here's what I would do. Uh, there's a, for those of you don't know what the heck I'm talking about. Soda Stream, you can go, you can buy them at like a Whole Foods, you can buy them at a bunch of different places and they use kind of an intermediate size CO2 canister and allow you to carbonate. several gallons with one with one canister and then you recycle the canister and get a new one and you only have to carry the CO2 bottle around because you produce the water at your house. There's not a lot of plastic waste, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. So in the soda stream, you're supposed to fill the bottle. I think like two-thirds are a little more up, and a little tube goes into the bottle, and that's what actually carbonates. It's like a little, like almost looks like a cappuccino frothing thing that comes down. Now, the problem is, is that if you actually fill up your bottle with wine to the level that that tube touches, it's
+
+[9:41] going to foam, and there's really nothing you can do about that. It's going to foam a lot. So what I would do is put a tube over that, right? So get a piece of rubber tubing and then just slip it over that to extend the length of the CO2 wand down closer to the bottom of your container.
+
+[9:58] You're going to have to jimmy it around to get the container onto it with that longer tube, but that's
+
+[10:03] going to allow you to carbonate with a much smaller volume of liquid, right? Now, so now you have your super ice cold white wine. You have your tube extender on your soda stream. Plug it in, hit it a couple times. Now, remember, this is all theoretical because I don't own a soda stream. Hit it a couple times with CO2, but don't carbonate it as much as you think. Now, now, purposely, purposely foam off that line, right? Now you're going to be bubbling all the stuff out. You're going to be getting rid of any trapped air that's in the wine from the
+
+[10:29] pouring, and in that kind of trapped air is going to cause a lot of foaming and bubbling. And so if you do that once or twice with a small amount of CO2. You're going to get rid of some of the crud that's in there that's causing the foaming and you're going to get a better
+
+[10:41] carbonator product all the way around. Then hit it with your maximum amount of CO2. I would pick up the unit a little bit and shake it a little bit to get the CO2 in. Then let it settle out completely, completely before you vent and allow
+
+[10:57] it to open. Because I think this, I've never, again, this is all theoretical. I think the soda stream lets you pressurize and then vent separately, but I'm not sure, but this technique
+
+[11:05] should work, even if it does not, this technique should work. The main thing is foaming is not your enemy. You just have to account for it, which means you have to use a smaller
+
+[11:14] volume, and you have to get the CO2 down into that smaller volume, and you should definitely carbonate more than one time. The only time we carbonate once is with water. Everything else, we carbonate, even water sometimes a couple times. We carbonate two, three, 4 times to make sure that we've gotten rid of all of the nucleation sites, and
+
+[11:31] that we get a good product. And, um, you know, just empirically from the years and years that we, you know, I've been
+
+[11:37] carbonating this proves to be a technique that works, and I'm assuming you can get it to work with the soda screen. We can jimmy almost anything to work. What do you think? Absolutely. All right. Okay. So let's rip through this because we're on short time. So I think we're going to be commercial. Oh, by the way, Tucker, who sent us that, enjoyed our country hand post. Nice. Nice. Thank you very much. Okay. Marty from Eagle Rock, California, says San Gabriel Valley Represent. Is that where you're from? Yeah, yeah. Eagle Rock is a place that has a rock. It looks like an eagle. For real? Yes. All right. Like a, like a, like an eagle with its wings out or like a? No, just the head. Like a dead eagle? Like a big head. An eagle's head. Specifically an eagle's head. Yeah. Okay. I read on the site that you can use the ISI infusion technique on to make flavored oils. Have you ever tried cacao or coffee infused oils? I have not. I have not. That's an interesting question. Um, no. I know people, obviously, we've done a lot with cacao and
+
+[12:39] alcohol, because I do most of my stuff with alcohol in the ISI. And I know people that have done coffee, coffee bitters. Don Lee is working on a coffee bitters. Um, So the, the short answer, no, uh, I haven't, the, um, uh, I would, I would just try it
+
+[12:58] and and tell us, tell us what happens. I mean, there's no reason why it shouldn't work. The main thing we've done with it is lemon peels. And we made our own lemon oils and other things like that, citrus. For those you don't know what the heck I'm talking about, ISI infusion is where you put, you take an ISI cream whipper, you put in,
+
+[13:16] we use liquor, but you can put in water-based foods or oils, you put in something porous, you pressurize it with nitrous, when you pressurize it with nitrous, it forces the fat or liquid into your porous
+
+[13:28] product. You shake the heck out of it, you get it to infuse in, then you rapidly vent
+
+[13:33] it, and all the flavor gets boiled out, and you have delicious infused product. Remember, though, when you do oils, you're going to want to use a lot more product. It doesn't suck up the flavor as readily as alcohol. Although, you know, this might be an interesting way to suck some of the flavor out of the marijuana going back to our marijuana post. Maybe I'm not advocating this. I'm not advocating this, but someone might want to try ISI in conjunction with
+
+[13:56] a water bath, put, you know, put the ISI into a water bath, and see whether or not you can extract herbal oil
+
+[14:04] essences, let's say. Yeah? Don't be cagey. Yeah, marijuana. I talking about marijuana. I can say that because I don't really care. Now, Marty also wants to make a Taleggio cheese whiz, which sounds like a good idea. Um, I didn't, uh, unfortunately, I was going to talk to my, uh, cheese whiz expert, which is uh, Wiley Dufrayne, whose favorite, favorite food isn't really cheese whiz. It's eggs and but he loves American cheese, right? And so the trick with the cheese whiz is getting the texture just right now. I've made many cheese sauces, including some that could be gunned. Um, but I've noticed, um, you know, that unless you, unless you get it just right, sometimes they can go grainy. I think it's going to be a problem with Telessio, the Telessio, you're just going to want to stop from breaking, but I hesitate to give you a recipe now. I'm going to have Nastasia remind me that when I talk to Wiley, going to see what he thinks the best kind of Taleggio spray cheese would be. My son's actually fascinated, not with cheese whiz, but the actual pressurized because he wants to, Marty wants to do this in his ISI. Who else has a recipe for that out there? I think, uh, is it Bayliss? Someone like, no, no. Who has someone has a recipe out? Anyway, we'll find one for you. And my son, though, is obsessed with the easy cheese. You're familiar with the easy cheese. Easy cheese is like, you know, the spray cheese, it comes in, but it sprays out really slowly. And that used to be my car food of choice. I used to drive 24 hours straight from New York or Connecticut down to Florida because my grandparents was friends. And we would just pack the car with Diet Mountain Dew, easy
+
+[15:28] cheese pretzels and prunes. And that combination of like, like, like it somehow leveled us out and got us to Florida without crashing, uh, crashing and dying. So yeah, good good memories, easy cheese. Anyway, we'll look that up. Okay. Uh, now, um, did you find uh, Oh, here's the one we didn't talk about last week, the one I flub last week. Howard from Montreal asked us whether or not we thought that potassium chloride, which is used in a 50-50 ratio
+
+[15:55] was sodium chloride as a salt replacer, would be a good replacement for salt in brines.
+
+[16:01] And so, and for some reason last week, my brain was completely fried. I don't know why my brain's working a better this week with the transportation problems I've had. But, um, I think he's pretty much right. I think that in most situations, potassium chloride
+
+[16:15] mixed with sodium chloride would provide a lot of the same functionality as just straight sodium chloride in a
+
+[16:21] brine scenario. Possibly in a bread scenario. I don't know how specific the reactions are to sodium versus, you know, sodium
+
+[16:31] has a particular ion versus potassium, a particular ion or whether it's just ionic strength that's doing the business. I know that most of the time when we're brining, even when we use things other than table salt, we do use sodium based
+
+[16:43] things like the sodium polyphosphates that are used to plump up hams and things like that. One thing I would caution against is that potassium chloride tastes nasty to me. It's got like a metallic, bitter taste. I find it nasty. I just don't like it. I really don't like it. Magnesium chloride. I like a lot better because it's sweeter, as Howard points out, though, magnesium might not have the same effects because it's a
+
+[17:09] divalent cation, so you'd have to add more of it because it's got all the extra chloride in
+
+[17:14] there. Nastachia is not a huge fan of the magnesium chloride. No? No? No? No? No, no. Yeah. We did a test where we made a bunch of different fake bottled waters by using
+
+[17:25] filtered water and then adding our own salts to it. I actually like the magnesium chloride water, although it really tasted nasty after we carbonated
+
+[17:32] it. am I right? I mean, like, yeah, it would be pretty nasty, but it did have a sweet taste by itself. But this brings me to my next point, which is salt in general. Now, I don't remember whether Howard's, I believe it was, who
+
+[17:46] was it that couldn't, his mom, I guess, couldn't have straight salt. But Ken Kirschenbaum from the experimental cuisine collective, professor of polymer chemistry at NYU, friend of mine, friend of the
+
+[17:58] blogs, we were having discussion because a friend of his actually shot a beaver or trapped a
+
+[18:04] beaver and then, you know, shot it to kill it. Legally, by the way, completely legally. The guy's like a game, blah, blah, straight state trooper upstate. And he brought me the tail. So we're going to cook it for him. I'm going to find Ken over and we're going to have some beaver tail, flapper and tail, by the way. Not just tail, not just flapper, flapper plus tail. anyway. Uh, so, uh, we were having this discussion, and Kent, as a scientist, uh, he and I get into discussions, a lot about how crappy most science is, specifically food science, but but even more specifically, uh, nutrition-based science, it tries to make claims about
+
+[18:36] things. one of the one of the problems he has now. And we're trying to figure out is there's a huge kind of war on salt right now, right? I mean, Nastasia and I, well, it's a long, stupid story. Yeah, and we were out of California. This guy was like, hey, this was, this is May. He was like, hey, I hear that they, they're outlawed using salt. In all of New York City. All in New York. I was like, no, that's not true. And he's like, yeah, they outlawed it. was like, I was just there. He's like, no, no, no, they outlawed. like, I work in a cooking school. I'm pretty sure I would kind of know, you know and I'm up on this. Anyway. But it is true that people are trying to limit the use of salt, major corporations, including some that we've worked
+
+[19:13] with. Uh, you know, have come out with a lot of, um, products that where they're trying to reduce the salt because salt is seen as this kind of evil additive that people are adding
+
+[19:22] to processed foods. Uh, I don't know, to get a sit. I don't know, I don't know what the gripe is. Here's the thing, right? Is that the data is awful. The data sucks, right? There is no data showing that the majority of us need to curtail our salt intake,
+
+[19:37] right? I mean, we all forget that before, you know, refrigeration, right? We consumed a buttload of salt, right? Because everything we had was preserved in some form of drying or drying and
+
+[19:51] salting or drying and salting and smoking, but it was a lot of salt. Our great grandpappies and grand mammies. Had much more salt in their diet, I would guess, than us just because we happen to eat a lot of easy cheese. Now, I'm not advocating going out and buying easy cheese, and I'm not advocating on going on salt overload. But what are the ramifications, right? To saying that we have to reduce all of salt and everything? I'll tell you what they are, right? Because it's not, it's not that you're going to suddenly go out and eat less processed food. I mean, maybe listeners for our blog are because they're pretty hardcore people, right? But the real ramifications are. that instead of reducing salt or making it less process, what they're going to do is they're going to try and keep palatability the
+
+[20:31] same and they're going to do it by ramping up umami. So if you taste a lot of these, um, these, you know, products that have reduced sodium, right? They have natural versions of free glutamic acid and whether or not they're the sodium variant, which they won't be because they're trying to reduce sodium. It's the sodium, not the salt, right? That people are worried about. But they're going to be ramping up things like potassium, you know, monopotassium, glutamate, or natural forms of this, so they can say that they have a lower sodium content. And the upshot is all of these products taste like dashi, right? They all have a brothy dashi sameness, like a because we're not used to those flavors being in those products.
+
+[21:11] So, you know, you don't, the problem with MSG isn't that it's bad. I don't believe it gives you a headache. All the best studies are that if and Nastasia thinks it gives her a headache, by the way. Black's eye black out. That's that's crap. I'm just saying, it's crap. Anyway, uh, we'll do a double blind study, but my my point is, is that, is that, um, you, you know, everything in the world shouldn't taste like it has a lot
+
+[21:34] of, whether or not it's natural, whether or not it's got the sodium, whether or not it causes
+
+[21:38] the problem. Not everything in the world is meant to taste like it's doped up on MSG. It's not supposed to taste like dashi. It's not supposed to taste brothy or or mushroom-y or
+
+[21:48] Parmesani or tomato-y. Do you know what I mean? And so I think the upshot is that in order to increase palatability, we're going to get to an even greater level of homogeneity
+
+[21:57] and taste. And I think this is a huge problem. Now, that's just from a taste standpoint. From a science standpoint, you know, I was reading an article and
+
+[22:06] you know, and it cited another article that was really, really crappy on that salt is like the biggest
+
+[22:13] killer today. And the article basically said, well, heart disease kills everyone, a lot of people, and salt is a big cause of heart
+
+[22:22] disease, and therefore salt causes most. This is all this is all horse hockey. Like, the truth is, is that majority of us can eat as much salt within reason as we want and not
+
+[22:35] have hypertension as a result. Now, this is my feeling. I work, I'm like, I'm basically here. I want people to call in on me and say that I'm full of
+
+[22:45] it, right? I will, but I want to see if we can form our own kind of war path, pro salt war path. Salt, salt, salt, love it, right? Not because I need to make it force food that's bad down people's throat, but because salt is the universal delicious maker, right? Salt will make everything taste better. We all need salt, like our civilization is built on salt. Like we are a salt, loving group of folk. And I think that there's no reason for us to, um, to stop just because some nincom poops say that we are, uh, you know, that
+
+[23:23] all of a sudden we're all going to get hypertension as a result of our salt intake. And I definitely don't think that they should make processed foods even worse than they are
+
+[23:31] now by making them all taste like dashi broth. Not that dashi bras, not delicious. And in fact, I have a post in draft mode. going to go up later today on Kambu Dashi. I swear to, I swear to God, it's going up today. Yeah, it's in draft mode. So it's going to be, we are extremely pro Kambudashi. Um, but, um, but I just don't think that my pasta should necessarily taste like kambudashi.
+
+[23:51] Now, one last, what was the name of the? one last name, it's my outro. Okay, Ken. Uh, Ken. So Ken, who wrote in about the AeroPress coffee machine. Told us to read an article last week. I didn't get time to read it. until last night. And it's called The Truth Wears Off by Jonah Lair and the New Yorker. And it's a very interesting article on the fact that scientific research tends to be,
+
+[24:13] that people, like, have these great results, that tend to turn to crap over time, the more the studies are replicated, the more you find that the results are
+
+[24:22] crap. Now, this is, you know, dovetails into what we were talking about before is that a lot of people report things by data mining. They data mine things and they figure out that, well, you know, X, Y, is the nutritional thing is
+
+[24:35] great or X, Y, and Z food is bad. But I'm going to, and everyone should read the article. It's very, you know, a great article, important article, as was pointed out to us, but I want to focus it more on cooking. And the same thing happens to us with cooking. I find that, um, we all rush to, and I'm, you know, probably guilty of this more than anyone else because we write a
+
+[24:53] blog, it's supposed to have some new results to it. But I think we all need to be careful when we're cooking to make sure that we are actually doing what we think we're doing, that we
+
+[25:04] actually, we pay attention to what tries to make a food better, what tries to make a food worse,
+
+[25:11] that we don't give explanations right away, that we try to disprove what we're working
+
+[25:18] on, rather than prove what we're working on, because I think that's going to make us think more like scientists in the kitchen. And I think thinking like a scientist in the
+
+[25:25] kitchen is make you a better cook. Sorry for the late start, and this has been cooking issues coming back to you on time next week.
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+[0:00] When you open the bottle and you drink the wine, it speaks for itself, is it, you know, a wine that's made for food? Yes, those types of wines are tend to be more rustic or have a little bit more body? Are there wines that are just pure out hedonistic pleasure? Sure, there's wines like that that maybe from California that are more cocktail wines or wines that are just big jammy fruit bombs. And those, I think, appeal to certain group of people as well. I think the wines that Barberhouse specializes in is more of these food friendly, you know, rustic style, biodynamic organic wines. It tend to be a bit more earthy, come from someplace. So you can always taste a terrois. You can almost feel this guy, this senseera was grown in this slaty rocky soil. And so to me, that's the exciting part that the wine feels like it comes from someplace.
+
+[0:54] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network coming to you live from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday.
+
+[1:06] It's another rainy, slushy day here in Brooklyn. I'm in the studio at Roberta's Pizzeria with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. We're here to answer all of your cooking related questions, technical and not. So if you can, please give us a holler at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, so, uh, we really, we uh, we had a question that I forgot to answer last time. So I might as well as well get into it. It's about gelatin. And the question is, basically, well, what the heck? What's the difference between all the different gelatins there are? What's the difference between fish gelatin and, you know, animal-based, regular, you know, I guess, red, you know, meat? regular meat-based animal gelatin. What's the difference between the different grades, the bronze, the gold, the silver, and the platinum? Here's the deal. So gelatins in the industry are rated on something called bloom strength. And bloom strength has nothing to do with, you know, a flower
+
+[2:03] blooming or even the fact that gelatin, you know, swells up when you put it in water. It has to do with a dude named Bloom, who, in the early 20th centuries, came up with a technique for measuring the strength of gels and gelatin
+
+[2:16] gels. And it's a really dumb, simple technique. You just take a, you know, a plunger of a particular size and you push it into the surface of a gelatin that's being cured very
+
+[2:28] accurately. I'll give you the exact numbers in case you want to run your own bloom tests. It's a 6.67% gelatin solution that is tempered for 17 to 18 hours at 10 degrees Celsius. And they measure, how much weight in grams it takes to push a half inch diameter plunger, 4 millimeters into the surface of the
+
+[2:49] gelatin? Why would they specify part of it in inches and part of it in millimeters? Who knows? makes no dang sense, right? No sense. And it's really, you know, a simple little thing. And most industrial, by the way, old school industrial measurements like this are
+
+[3:03] quite, quite simple. Like they used to, and they still measure viscosity of a lot of things by literally like building a trough with a ruler in it, dumping some crap into it and seeing how far that stuff runs along the trough before it
+
+[3:14] stops. I mean, this is the kind of, this is the kind of like bonehead test, but it makes everything standardized because they need to be able to standardize gelatin for various different applications.
+
+[3:23] So, gelatins come in a wide range then. in sheet gelatin, bronze gelatin, the bronze grade is going to be
+
+[3:30] about 125 to 155 bloom. So it's fairly soft, right? Whereas silver is, this is from an eagle thread, by the way. So, you know, I shouldn't take it without saying it's from an eagle thread. Silver gelatin is about 160. Gold is like 190 to 220 and platinum is 235 to 265. So that's the highest bloom strength. I would bet most of us use something in the in the gold in the gold range, right? Now, uh, bloom strength, interestingly, uh, has nothing necessarily to do with how the gel is going to perform in a particular application,
+
+[4:04] like for instance, gelatin clarification. It's just a measure of how strong a particular gel concentration is as a gel. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to make better. Marshmallows, because gelatin isn't just used as a geling agent. It's used as a whipping agent. It's used as an emulsifier because it's made of proteins. The way gelatin is made, is you take any form of collagen, connective tissue. All of our connective tissue, most of it, is collagen, right? And collagen is a triple helix, and each one of those of proteins. And each one of those helix is when it's denatured properly turns into gelatin. That how braised products work, right? You know, you braise until the collagen breaks down and turns into gelatin, which makes
+
+[4:40] the texture delicious and whatnot and whatnot. Animal-based gelatins come, well, you would guess, from animals. A lot of it is from skin, like pigskin or from bones. When they're doing bones, they take and they wash the bones in acid for a long time to leach out all the calcium. It leaves a spongy, nasty bone mass, which they then wash, dry, well,
+
+[5:00] neutralized, dry, grind up, and then they then or the skins or anything else, they take them that raw material, and they usually treat it either with an acid or with a
+
+[5:09] base, and they get there's 2 different kinds of gelatin, depending on whether they do that. And that further kind of breaks the crosslinks between these triple helix of proteins, right? Makes it easier for them to extract the gelatin. And then they take and they heat it in hot water and they extract like three, four,
+
+[5:25] 5 times different gels of different qualities. The 1st water is the highest strength, highest quality gel. And the farther down the extraction line you are, the kind of the crappier
+
+[5:35] you're jealous. But that's how they get all the gel out and how they get gels of various different strengths. Part of the question was, what's the difference between a powder gel and a sheet gel? And the answer is nothing going into it, right? A sheet gel is you take the gelatin solution that you get out of, you know, your process product and you dehydrate it and you spread it into a sheet and let it dry and cut it and put it in a box.
+
+[5:55] Whereas powder gelatin, they extrew it into noodles. Those noodles are dried out, and then pulverized in a mill, and then that's the subsequent gel powder, but there's no inherent difference between powder gel, powder
+
+[6:07] gelatin and sheet gelatin. Now, there is a major difference between fish gelatins
+
+[6:14] and like, you know, pig or cow gelatin. You're probably not going to run into poultry gelatin unless you, you know, process your own or you're doing like some sort of a, you know, a chicken skin soup and you get the gelatin out of it. But, um, but pig and mammal skin gelatins. Our pagan, sorry, cow, gelatins are fairly, you know, high strength. This is the one we're normally used to using. Fish gelatins can come from one of 2 sources. Cold water fish make a really crappy gelatin. It barely gels at all. It's really just, it's crap. It really is horrible. They're working on it, Nastasia. Did you know that? They're working on it because there are people who would like to have a fish-based gelatin that works. Now, and it has to do with the amino acid makeup of the proteins, of the connective tissue in cold water fish. It's just, they suck. What do you want? You know what I mean? Warm water fish, on the other hand, can make a gel strength that
+
+[7:09] is okay, but the problem is, is that fish gelatin tends to melt at a lower temperature. So, you know, it's a lot harder to work with a fish-based gelatin and to get a good result. I, you know, I tend to not use it. I kind of stay away from it. We tend to use sheet gelatin for some applications and powder gelatin for other applications. And it's just a matter of which box comes into my hand first, frankly. But you shouldn't switch bloom strengths. you know, or basically the strengths of your gels between different recipes because your results may
+
+[7:41] differ. How was that? You think? That was good. There's too much of the right amount. The right amount. The right amount. Thank you. You know, it's always nice to have at least one booster in your corner. So, uh, now, uh, loyal readers of the blog, uh, if we have any left because we've only
+
+[7:55] put, like, we've put up like one post every 8 years at this point. We're going to get better. We have some cool stuff coming, like the centerfuge video, I promised you, and a bunch of other stuff, but I'll give you an idea of stuff we've been working on. Um, about a year ago, I think, a year? No, less than that. Are you talking about the 1st thing? Yeah, yeah. No, 8 months, 9 months. All right, so Cornell University has this project called Fab at Home. And basically, it's a three-dimensional printer, and they gave us one a while back, and it's
+
+[8:22] basically they want us to print food with this 3D printer.
+
+[8:26] Now, you know, what is it really? It's a syringe. So basically it's a syringe that you fill with paste, any kind of paste, like, I don't know,
+
+[8:35] gel paste, goop, meat, paste, goop. I mean, it's basically the main criteria is that you get a pasty goop. right? But they have a new one. Apparently we can now extrude pasta doughs and masa, which we're going to work on today, which sounds interesting because cookies, they can do cookies. So here's the thing. right? It's basically a three-dimensional, it's basically just very accurately controls the X,
+
+[8:59] Y, and Z axis. It's hooked into a computer, and they accurately control how fast the goop is sprayed out of the syringe, and they have multiple syringes so you can use different materials. Yada, yada, yada. Fantastic, right? Now, they want us to print food with it. Now, here's the main deal. And CNN, by the way, some money show. Do you know what it's called? CNN money. Well, that's easy. CNN money. They're coming to the school today, and our buddy, you know, Senor Lipton from Cornell is here, and we're going to shoot this thing with the television people today. But they have the classic kind of what I think that CNN does, awful idea,
+
+[9:37] a horrible, horrible idea that someday you are going to go home, push a button, and your meal is going to be printed for you. God, I hope not. You know what I mean? It's just it's just a terrible, terrible idea. And, and so, and when I say this to people, they're like, yeah, but that's just because the technology's not right. I'm like, no, this is a conceptually horrible idea that we would, like, grind all of our raw ingredients into a
+
+[10:04] pabulum like paste and extrude them into various different shapes and call that a meal goes
+
+[10:10] against, basically everything I think is good about the world. Well, you know? Yeah, yeah. But they didn't seem to, they weren't listening when I was saying that, right? that kind of went over their head. The whole, like, I think it's evil. Yeah. Right. Now, there are some fantastic applications for the 3D printer. Not my applications, but, you know, good applications. For instance, you have a kid's birthday. This thing is like the wizard icing printing machine of all time. This thing can print a three-dimensional El Santo wrestling, like, you know, a Martian on top of a cupcake, like without breaking a sweat, right? So for things like kids' birthday parties, where you want to print out, you know, one, you know, cake with the kid's face on
+
+[10:54] it and then, or maybe the kid's face with a dog trying to bite his face off, something like that. Anything like that, anything you've got a model of, you can print out onto a cupcake because icing is a straight up, awesome paste printing material, right?
+
+[11:07] It's also great if, you know, if you want to make things out of epoxy or your kids want to make things out of
+
+[11:11] silicon rubber, great. We talking food only, right? So icing is great. You can print cookies in the shape of, uh, I don't know, like space shuttles, donkeys, whatever. You know what I mean? You can print whatever. Great, great application. Not my application. For me, the, you know, I'm obviously not interested in the application that I think is, you know, one of the roots of all evil thinking in the future of
+
+[11:35] food, that we're all going to live like the Jetsons, you know, and have our food and pill form. I mean, that's, uh, you know, uh, God help us. if that happens. But, you know, I'm waiting for the killer application where we actually produce a new and delicious food with this printer that can't be made any other
+
+[11:52] way. And that's basically why you haven't seen a lot of work from us out of
+
+[11:56] it because we haven't come up with that killer application. But they, you know, there's this new technique that we're hopefully going to try out today where basically you can print what looks like, you know, those like, how do you describe these
+
+[12:10] nastasia? Like, you know the squidgy mats that you walk on that are made out of like plastic loopy
+
+[12:15] doodles? Or those flip-flops? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. squidgy doodle flip-flops. flip-flops. Yeah. What's the name of the company? Sanook, S-A-N-U-K. Yeah, you know, Nastasia knows everything about flip-flops and I don't because I find them a horror. Like the idea of my heels slipping around. Okay, cooking it. I hate flip-flops. If any of you, no offense if you own a flip-flop corporation, but, you know, you'd sooner see me dead than in a pair of flip-flops. That's just it.
+
+[12:40] You know what I mean? Like, I hate them. I hate everything about them, the noise when they're wet. I mean, everything awful. Like, something between my toast. horrible. Anyway, um, so, uh, how did we get on? Oh, yeah. So that material is like that like squidgy material and flip-flops, but he can print it out of any kind of food.
+
+[12:55] So, uh, we're going to take masa dough, which is nixtimalized corn, uh, ground into a fine paste. We're going to try to print this, uh, basically spongy mat-like surface out of the masa and then fry it to get kind of a new snatch ship
+
+[13:10] texture. That's gonna be cool, right? And we're also going to try to print out some extruded, some snacks that, you know, they can be puffed later. I mean, the other main problem with this 3D printing is it's inherently a prototype application, right? So, yes, I can make one space shuttle out of scallop paste, which is what we did the last time we printed something
+
+[13:29] out. But if I really wanted to make space shuttle shaped scallop paste nuggets, right? I would make a silicone mold that had like 20 or 30 space shuttles in it, and then I would just, you know, strike mold everything out with an offset spatula and call
+
+[13:44] it a day. You know, I wouldn't bother printing each one because that's a nightmare. So, you know, these are the basic problems with the 3D printer, but if you have any ideas, please call them in ASAP because we're
+
+[13:54] gonna talk to the CNN people today, and there's nothing I'd like more than to say. One of our listeners or readers just came up with the killer app. All right. All right, let's take a break, come back, calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128, cooking issues. How you feel, brother? You feel good. so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fella? Hey, Jeff. You're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Let's take them up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I wanna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, let's go on that. Gotta take you home.
+
+[15:06] Brother? Yeah. Now I want everybody. Welcome back to cooking issues, calling all of your
+
+[15:14] questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 coming to you live from Brooklyn. All right, so I think we should talk about another project we're working on. Not strictly cooking related, but generally food related, and that's the food museum. As some of you might know, the project that I was involved in before I joined the French culinary
+
+[15:36] team, was trying to start a food museum. And this isn't necessarily a place where, well, it isn't a place where you just go look at
+
+[15:42] shellacked pieces of bread and muse over how awesome the food of the past was. I mean, this is going to be a place where you go and you eat, you taste, you learn, you see, you
+
+[15:53] touch, because I really find that not that you shouldn't listen to food radio. But I find that like, you know, really, if you want to learn about food, you really, you have to eat it, you have to see it, you have to touch it, you have to smell it.
+
+[16:04] I mean, that's the, that's what food is, you know? I mean, I love reading. you know, I love listening, you know, to ideas, but really, you know, you got to get out there and taste. That's what, you know, Jeffrey Steingarten has that. one of his big gripes. about, you know, people, you know, who are in the food business, is they want to be in the food business. They want to write about it, but they simply haven't eaten enough. So his, whenever you, if any of you out there are ever going to approach Jeffrey Steingarten, the food writer at Vogue, you know,
+
+[16:27] friend of ours, if you're ever going to approach him and say that you're interested in getting started in the food business or specifically in food writing, please, please have a long list of places you have gone and things you have eaten and avoid saying that X, Y, or Z is the best, like, avoid saying things
+
+[16:47] like, that's the best hamburger because he's like, whoa, so you've eaten every hamburger on earth? I mean, I'm just telling you, should you ever approach Jeffrey Steingarten to ask him for advice? That is my advice to you. Anyway, and I think he's down with the food museum. He's given us things in the past. So anyway, so this is a food museum and the idea is to have it in New York. When we 1st came up with the idea, there wasn't really, there weren't any food museums of the type we were talking about. I mean, there was copia in Napa, which is closed, unfortunately. There's a New York food museum, which is about the history of New York food, but it's a museum that's not meant to have a location. There's now the Museum of Southern Food, which, you know, I haven't been down there, but, you know, but anyway, so the idea is to start one in New York. And Patrick, you know, the Jefe of Heritage Foods, and the great leader of this radio network. Um, like the idea and say, well, let's start this project, this project up again.
+
+[17:39] And so that's why I'm here talking about it. Today, we're going to have a fundraiser on March 27th, which is a Sunday, yeah. And it's going to be held at Del Posto, pretty badass. I can say that here, right? Badass? Yeah. pretty badass. Uh, you know, uh, our friend Mark Ladner uh, graciously agreed to let us have the fundraiser there. He'll be cooking. We haven't confirmed all the other chefs yet, but it's gonna be big. anyway. Uh, we're looking to 200 people, something like that. 210 is the limit. 210s the limit. And if you have any questions about it, should you wish to go to this fundraiser. You can email Nastasia and Lopez at Frenchculinary.com. That's N. Lopez at Frenchculinary.com. I tell you what. I'll be making some cocktails. Will you? Will I not? Okay. Well, maybe Nastasia doesn't want me to. I'm going to strong. Basically, here's what's gonna happen. I'm going to strong arm and beat all of my friends and family into submission to work on this damn thing. So, I mean, they don't even know about it yet, but I'm going to beat on Dave Chang until he says yes. I'm going to beat on Wiley until he says yes. I'm going to beat on Dave Wondridge till he says yes to make cocktails. So if Audrey's in town, I'll beat on her. You know what I mean? It's like, this, it's going to be like a full force beat down to try and get as much of the food world
+
+[18:55] involved. well, at least our friends in the food world involved in, I'm going to give Johnny a beat down. Johnny Yazina, I'm going to give him a beat down. Anyway, so, um, Anyway, so that's that's gonna be, that's what we're working on. something that's working on behind the scenes. Another thing we've been working on behind the scenes is our raw food challenge, which, okay, listen, listen. Not a welcher. I don't want anyone out there to call me a welcher, but I have to fly to Boca Raton during the week I was supposed to do the raw food
+
+[19:24] thing, and that conference that the event that I'm going to involves cooking, and since I will not make anything ever that I don't taste before it goes out, I cannot eat raw food during that week.
+
+[19:41] So Nastasia is busy as we speak, rescheduling for one of the 1st 2 weeks in February to do the raw food
+
+[19:50] extravaganza. But I'll give you some lowdown about what we've tested so far. Bought myself an excalibur hydrator, right? Which was, you know, it's an awesome dehydrator. Unfortunately, in my house, there's no place to put it. So it's like, you know, up like in the ceiling on top of my printer in a cabinet that can only be accessed on the tallest chair we have, right? That's life, right? I have I literally, I use my iPhone in camera mode to look and see what the knob is set too, so that I can set the knob. Even at home, I'm ghetto. The school I'm ghetto, at home, I'm getting it's always ghetto. anyway. So, man, it's not really. I mean, it's an awesome dehydrator. It's just, for some reason, I have all this great equipment and I managed to make it look stupid by the way I set it up and the horrible conditions I set it up in. That's the story of my life. Something really nice in a pile of filth. That's that's my life in a nutshell, right? Yeah. Something nice in a pile of filth. Anyway, so working on stuff with a dehydrator. I had Nastasia make a series of sprouts because apparently raw vegan food involves a lot of sprouting for various reasons.
+
+[20:53] One, it helps grains and things be more easily broken down because as a grain sprouts,
+
+[20:58] enzymes go to work, and I guess raw food's all about enzymes. Anyway, start breaking down some of the starches, making them more digestible so that you can eat them raw. Now, Nastasia, how many different things did you sprout? Eight, eight. So we did mung beans. They didn't look like any mung bean sprouts I've ever had. Like maybe we need to grow them better. You know, I like among bean sprout. Like that's the one sprout where I can, I will stand up in a hallway and say, hey, you know what, mung beans sprout? You are a good sprout. That is a good sprout among beans sprout, not these. But other people seem to enjoy them, right? Did oat groats, which Nastasia, for some reason, thought was oat grout. I don't know why I don't know why you would grout your tiles with oats, but anyway, oat groats. Apparently she didn't grow up singing the OHP beans and barley growed song. No. Yeah. anyway. So, at Zookie Beans, we did, what else do we do? We did lentils. Some of these, by the way, you shouldn't eat raw because they're kind of poisonous. Black eyed peas. What else? What else do we do? Rye berries. No, we didn't get to do the rye. Something berries. Wheat berries. Wheat berries. Beat berries. All right. Wheat berries were not we're not awful. Right. No, I think that was the only one we... The mung barriers wanted... Oh, and we made that stuff rejuvalac, which for those of you that don't know or care, rejuvalac is, you know, you take wheat berries, you let them sprout, and then you let them sit in
+
+[22:11] water to kind of ferment a little bit, and they use that as a Kickstarter for different things.
+
+[22:16] Let me just say that all these sprouts tasted like poison to me. With the exception of the wheat. And I'm not saying this, look, this is good and bad, right? One, I'm not saying that they were bad because one chef was like, hey, I tasted your sprouts. Those are pretty good. I'm like, really? Because to me, they tasted like poison. I wrong about this? Yeah, like you just sprayed your grass front lawn with poison. Yeah. Yeah. Poison. Anyway. Now, but but it was good that I had a chef who likes sprouts, taste them, and say that they were okay because now I know that I just would prefer not to use those
+
+[22:52] things. The weed sprouts were okay. You could use the Weese Pass. So that's something I'm going to strike off my list. There's not going to be any sort of like, like, you know... Yeah, the rejuvalac was good. So the rejuval act that's like slightly fermented weed stuff is good. That's good I want to see if I can make a raw version of a rye rejuvilac that we can then almost make a kvas out of, which is, you know, kvas is like, you know, the Eastern European Russian fermented bread beverage.
+
+[23:18] It's usually made with bread which is cooked, which means you can't do it, but I want to see if you can do it with just something sprouted. I'm also interested. I don't have time, but I'm interested in trying to work with a raw beer. That might be it might be interesting. But anyway, so the sprouts tastes bad, which means I have to think of something else to do because I didn't like them. We tried another bunch of recipes for, I don't want anyone to get mad. I'm just tasting this and this is like deciding what I'm going to eat for this week. We made a bunch of nut cheeses. I don't know why the heck they're called cheeses. They don't taste like cheese. I wasn't there. You didn't taste any of those? It's like basically nuts mixed with rejuvilac and or, and or orange juice and or, you know, some other stuff. And into like a moosey paste, and they're used, I guess, as a kind of a cottage cheese replacement and vegan cheese.
+
+[24:04] But you know what the problem with them is, fundamentally, is I really like cheese a lot. Cheese, to me, has a specific texture and taste, which these don't have. I mean, like, could you make a delicious raw nut mousse? Yeah. Yeah. Not this. I was like, no. We did do an interesting thing where we mixed. We soaked a bunch of nuts because you have to soak some of these nuts when they're raw because they haven't been roasted and there's stuff in
+
+[24:26] them you want to get out. So we soaked macadamias, pistachios, sunflower. We didn't have any raw cashews left in the house. So... So sunflower seeds shelled, thank God. and almonds all raw. Uh, we, uh, I put them through a champion juicer. And then after they were soaked. And then we took the paste and we squeezed it out. And that actually was really good. It had a really good texture. The oil separated out, and we were able to make little balls that had actually a really good texture. So that will be, it's an expensive dish, uh, because it had all those nuts and soaked and everything. But, you know, that will probably... It just seems really expensive in a lot of work, unnecessary work. Well, you should just eat. Well, now, you know, it's not unnecessary if the goal is to eat raw.
+
+[25:13] I mean, the my main problem so far is, is that, you know, I can, it's, it does take a lot of pre-work to do
+
+[25:20] the raw, the raw food thing. And in our space, we need space. But I mean, I could do it. I do it at home. It not the issue. The issue is, is it takes a lot of work to do it right. Now I'm thinking, now, look, let's say you actually ate raw food. Like, this is what you did. You ate raw food, right? Who has this level of time to devote to always being
+
+[25:41] 3 days out? Now I'm sure some of these things become staples. You always have sprouts in your fridge. You always have rejuvalac of brewing. You always have, you know, whatever, whatever cultures are going and you get it to go. You know what I mean? But in the absence of that, I mean, you'd probably like, you know, like
+
+[25:56] everyone's image of what raw food people eat, which is that sitting around eating carrots all day. I mean, I could see how you would devolve into that because it's good. It's a heck of a lot easier. You know what I mean? These raw food restaurants have to jump through some serious, serious hoops to kind of do the things that they do. Now, the last great experiment. I'm hoping this works really, really well, is the marination of vegetable partial dehydration to simulate kind of a roasted flavor. Although I don't even know why you'd have to call it roasted. It just can't even say it makes a nice texture out of it. So we'll play with some mushrooms. I'll play with some other things. But barring that, I'm just going to have to do something like radically ignore all of the raw food advice that I've gotten. But like I said, when I ate at Sarma's restaurant, Sarma melon guy is a pure food, you know, I liked a good deal of what was put out, you know, so it's not like it can't be done, but I mean, we have to think of our own way of doing it, something that's good.
+
+[26:51] So we're going to use a roto app. I'm going to make some low temperature distillates, make all of you raw food people out there totally jealous because I'm going to be drinking sweet, sweet booze that's never been heated. Uh, distilled illegally in my roto app, right? Um, and uh, when, when, what else do you want? We can do reductions also low temperature. So we'll be able to do fruit reductions that are totally low temp. That going to be awesome. We can use enzymes. We can use our pectinase enzymes to break things down to do clarifications. We're going to make some bang up sauces with that kind of stuff. I'm extremely interested in trying to get some transgutaminase that doesn't have maltodextrine because unfortunately that's been cooked and doesn't have caseine because that's not vegan or gelatin because that's not obviously not
+
+[27:37] vegan. Uh, to see whether or not we can strengthen uh, nut paste um, and other, other, you know, suspensions with proteins in them in the absence of heat. I think that could be an interesting test. I'm gonna try and run that. And that shouldn't be a, you know, that shouldn't be a problem for vegans, right? No. I mean, it's an enzyme. I mean, for raw vegans. an enzyme, it's not animal-based. microbial-based fermentation. So it shouldn't be a problem. So that's our rough food progress. We welcome any sort of advice. Uh, you know, we've read uh, Matthew Kenny's books. We've read Sarma's books, we've read... Who's that guy that you really like? Well, there's this guy, I don't know him, but he's got the craziest pictures in his cookbook. His name is, well, do you think it's Juliano or Juliano? Probably Juliana. Juliano? Yeah. So we have these, these books. We have Trotter, Trotter. What the name of the woman working with Trotter? And the problem is like, like, and and these cookbooks are good. Right? They're good. I mean, they really are. They're well done. It's just like, you know, some of the raw ingredients I have issues with, like sprouts. I just detest them. I really do. I wish I could like them. I've never liked them growing up, especially alfalfa sprouts. I can't think of anything I less rather have caught in my teeth than alfalfa sprouts. I think the problem is, is that even like people who like people who, not raw food people, people like pea shoots, right? Most people like pea shoots. guess who doesn't like pea shoots? Yeah. I mean, I'll eat them. They're not vile, but that kind of raw, starchy taste, I'm averse too. And so since that is inherent in almost every sprout. I like peach sheets. I remember Brooks put them in a dessert with strawberry ice cream. Brooks is the pastry chef Adel Posto, one of our favorite pastry chefs. I'm sure it's, look, everyone in the world likes it except for me. I'm not saying that, you know, I'm right here. I'm clearly wrong. Clearly pea shoots are delicious. And, you know, I find them merely, you know, not awful. you know. But it's that starchy, sweet taste that I'm not really down with. Anyway, let's go to our 2nd commercial break and come back. Still time to call in two, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128, cooking issue. There you go, brother. You're feeling good. Be so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feel, Bella? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high.
+
+[30:27] All right. I want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, let's go on, man. Gotta take you home.
+
+[30:39] Brother! Yeah? Now, I want everybody, let bread blow in my two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do that again now, all right? Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Coming to you from rainy, slushy Brooklyn. Okay. Uh, so, uh, interesting little story. We were on, uh, you were on, well, yeah, you were in the studio audience. The Martha Stewart show. What was that? like maybe 2 months ago? Anyway, Nastasia never lets me forget it because I was supposed to complete 3 cocktails. 1st it was five. Then it was cut down to 12. You know, look. So, and it's not just like, you only made it through 3 quarters of the cocktail. You an idiot. You're a moron. Why couldn't you make it through it? You are useless. Anyway, my point is, is that most of the time when you do demos, the person you're demoing in front of is basically just there kind of
+
+[31:37] reacting, whereas when Martha Stewart is there with the demo with you. Martha Stewart asks you questions that relate to how things
+
+[31:45] work and you don't just tell Martha Stewart, she piss off. you met your wife. Not on air. I thought she asked. What? And it completely stopped you. Well, that's easy. I met my wife in college. making a cocktail. nostalgia, like, keep plowing through it. Crap on Martha. Who does she think she is to ask you a question about cooking? For real. Anyway, uh, so so anyway, so I didn't make it through all of the steps that I was supposed to make it through on the program. I made it... nostagi to ride. I made it about 3 quarters of the way through gin and tonic. I was able to show Martha the liquid nitrogen trick of pulverizing grapefruit pips and blood orange pips into their individual, not really pips, pips, or seeds. You know, the fruit, the vesicles, the juice vesicles. pulverize them into individual things, so they float around and look pretty. I knew Martha would love that because, you know, if there's anyone in the world that likes a pastel color, it's Martha Stewart, right? So here's what happens. At the end of the show, Martha's like, yeah, that's great. I'm figuring she's, you know, blowing sunshine up my, you know what? And she's like, that's great. Yeah, I'm like, hey, well, you know, if you're ever interested in any of this stuff. And I demonstrated a centrifuge, clarifying lime juice and a centrifuge, using a combination of agar, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Centrifuge. So, uh, blah, blah, blah. So, and part of the segment was kind of what an eBay ninja I am and how I was able to get my centrifuge for $100 on eBay because they, I
+
+[33:12] forget, that one was because they spelled it like... No, no, that one was because... Oh, that one was the dead fuse. had a blown fuse in it. The other one I got was because they spelled it like centro fuge. you know, and I, by the way, eBay friends out there. I just bought a 160 liter liquid nitrogen duder, doer. Used, but retail value, brand new, $2,000, and eBay value $1000 to $1,200 in that range for like 300 bucks because they spelled nitrogen wrong.
+
+[33:43] Hello? I feel a little bit guilty, actually, frankly, taking advantage of people who spell nitrogen wrong. survive over the fittest. Wow. And that's why we call her the hammer, folks. You don't get to see it very often, but that's why they call it the hammer. Anyway, so I'm like, you know, Martha, you know, if you ever need anything with this tech stuff, I figure she's not going to ask me because Grant Aiken's from Alinia is right there. Green Aiken's coming on the show, by the way, in spring, but because he has a new book coming out that I actually have the galleys of. kind of more of a memoir, not a cookbook, more of a memoir, but coming on the show, I
+
+[34:15] guess March or something like that. So looking forward to that. Maybe we can get Mirville nominees out sometime. His book's coming out soon. Well, maybe we can get McGee next week. Is he in town? On Tuesday? I don't know. Anyway, we'll get you some good guests. Anyway, because we haven't gotten a guess in like 8000000000 years, but we'll get you some good guesss. Anyway, what the hell was we talking about? Oh yeah. Martha. So Martha is sitting there, and I'm like figuring she's not going to ask me for anything. And the next day,
+
+[34:39] her, the assistant calls, her assistant calls and says, hey, Martha wants a centrifuge. I'm like really? Yeah, like for the show? She's like, no, for her house. I'm like, all right, what's your budget? And Martha is so kind of love the fact that I'm this kind of scrounging, you know, person who glues everything together with duct tape and bubble gum. Quality and filth. Quality and filth. That she's like, I don't know, 300 bucks. Like, what? This is something, I swear that if you want to buy one. that is in working condition that's good that you trust with your with your family, let's say, right? That's a $1,200 That's a $1,200- $1,500 problem, right? New? We're talking a $7000 to $10,000 problem. Wiley Dufrayne just had his got his new center futures, doing some interesting stuff, actually. Wiley called me and says that, like, he's, and now I kick myself. He's churning butter in it. That's pretty cool. That's cool. I shouldn't maybe have said that on the air. Anyway, so the, um, so she's like 300 bucks because she wants to get like the coolest bargain. She wants to be part of the eBay bargain thing. I was like, you realize for $300, I'm going to have to buy a broken one and pray I can fix it and
+
+[35:48] then it hasn't been, you know, dipped in too much feces that I can't clean off.
+
+[35:52] So, because these are all have all sorts of nasty blood and blah, blah, blah. I mean, they're all they're hardcore, right? So she's like, that's okay. I can wait. So eventually we did. Yeah, right. So we did find one thing was dead totally. Put it on blocks like a car. Yeah. But, you know, look, again, like anything else with eBay, it's the, it's, I was reading the description to see kind of what was wrong with it, like how it was broken and then kind of praying that I
+
+[36:17] could fix it. And I determined that because the motor could spin freely and the tachometer still worked and everything powered up, that if I was lucky, right? It was a problem either with a wire leading to the motor, that would be the best. Or it was a problem with the actual brushes because these are brushing motors. So there's carbon brushes that are in it that basically transfer the, you know, electricity from the winding out, you know, back to the thing. And so these go bad after a while. And if someone's a jerk and they haven't replaced them, then everything goes south and the machine stops working. Well, lo and behold, it was the brushes. So, you know, you bought a centerfuge for under 300 bucks. I think we paid two. Do something. It was 350 altogether. With shipping and everything, right? And refrigeration works great. Replace the brushes. That was a $6, no, 16 after I had to buy 2 sets of brushes. $16 problem, and boom, Martha's got a centrifuge. So as soon as she gets herself back in the country. Martha Stewart's going to be rocking with the cooking issues. Centering better. What? She's going to churn some butter. We're going to give her a starter kid of enzymes. Really? Well, why not? She's Martha Stewart. You know what I mean? I guarantee you Martha Stewart's got some fancy fruit, right? And she can clarify in that centrifuge. So that's our 1st celebrity hookup where we're hooking a celebrity up with some
+
+[37:34] high-tech equipment and that's cooking issues for this week with Martha Stewart Centrifuge. Join us next week for cooking issues.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Tabord Inn. Feast on eclectic American cuisine in their acclaimed restaurant or enjoy a cocktail and listen to live jazz in one of their cozy Victorian sitting areas, mingle with travelers from around the world who find the
+
+[0:14] tabard the only place to stay when their travels bring them to Washington. For more information, visit www.tabardin.com.
+
+[0:29] Vicious fish. Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues, the show where you call in or email in all of your
+
+[0:39] cooking related questions, technical or not. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, cooking issues, big old hammer bringing the hammer down on all you people that don't behave. Although we've never had anyone not behave, actually. We've never actually had to use your hammer. I think you're just so frightening. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Okay, so calling all your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. Here for the next 45 minutes or so. So please call in your questions. So what's going on here, Nastasia? I'm flying out to Florida today, right? Yeah. Did you look over the stuff? No, of course not. But they don't need to know that. By the way, if, well, it is true. I'll give you a partial announcement now, but in the near future. You know, we might be open to consulting kinds of
+
+[1:27] situations. But just so you know, should you ever hire me, Nastasia, which has a cooking issues team at this point? Should you ever harass for anything? We're not going to think about your problem until it's actually time to think about your problem.
+
+[1:42] Well, we'll try to break him of that. Yeah, right. Sure. So speaking of thinking about problem, last week we came on the show and we asked for any sort of suggestions as to what to do with our 3D printer, because we have this 3D printer that was given to us by the Fab at
+
+[1:56] home guys at Cornell, it prints basically, it's a syringe that moves around in 3 dimensions and squeezes out, you know, at a very precise rate, any sort of paste, any paste that you want.
+
+[2:07] And they want us to come up with a good food application. And we didn't for about 8 months, we didn't come up with one. And, uh, you know, finally, a couple people have called to interviewed me actually about what I thought about 3D food
+
+[2:19] printing and I always said pretty much the same thing, which is no one's thought of a really good application yet. And, you know, I think it's a, you know, there's no need to print, you know, the Mickey Mouse
+
+[2:27] in, you know, out of, out of turkey paste. I mean, there's just no need for it because I can, you know, I could make a Mickey Mouse mold and then spread. I'm going to Orlando today, which is why I'm thinking about, is a, you know, make a Mickey Mouse mold and spread it into a silicone, you know,
+
+[2:43] thing. Then I could make a whole bunch of turkey things that way. So I never thought that like weird shapes was an interesting application for me for a 3D printer. And lo and behold, we came up with this. What I thought was a good idea in conjunction with Jeffrey Lipton, who runs the program, the Fab at
+
+[3:00] home program up at Cornell. And it was, well, we're going to take what I think is one of the ultimate pace of all time, which is
+
+[3:06] Masadough, next to Milized corn. I mean, you know, what's better than masa? Nastasia, anything? You're going to Boca. Oh, ah, whatever. Florida. So is there anything better than anything? No offense, no offense to Florida, but you know, it's just not my not my place. I hate the sun. I hate, you know, flat landscapes and, you know, Spanish moss is okay. Anyway, whatever. So the, uh, but in anything, nothing better than masa, right? So we had a thing where we print out this squiggly shape of masa, and it looks great and it has a great
+
+[3:33] texture, like shredded wheat, but it tastes awesome, like a tortilla chip. I thought it was fantastic. CNN shows up. We give him this long song and dance about, you know, what these applications are good for, you know, the printers are really good for coming up with maybe with new textures or for, you know,
+
+[3:47] ideation, thinking about new ways to make things. Uh, and they basically, you know, what I say, what I'm not interested in is this whole idea that in the future, it's going to be the Jetsons or Star Trek, and you're going to push a button and all of a
+
+[4:00] sudden, your meal is going to come out. And, you know, for instance, there's nothing, I think, worse in the world than thinking that if you press a button, your meal is
+
+[4:07] going to pop out. What could be more horrific to a cook than thinking that we're totally going to remove human beings from the cooking
+
+[4:14] process? And furthermore, you know, get us even further away from, uh, you know, from
+
+[4:18] the from the food chain from where our food comes from from the from the whole food supply system to a point where we don't care that everything that's served to us, you know, comes in a tube and is extruded out of a syringe into random
+
+[4:29] shapes. Honey, what shape do you want your turkey paste in tonight? We had Mickey yesterday. Goofy? I mean, seriously, like, what is that, right? It's crazy. Anyway, so we, I thought we had won over the CNN money people. And yesterday I looked at the CNN money piece on the web, and I was horrified to see that what they took away from it was that in the
+
+[4:54] future, we will basically print turkey paste. You knew that. We spoke about I felt like we had made a connection with them. And, uh, and that they kind of, you know, understood at least our point of view that that was a
+
+[5:09] horrible, horrible, horrible idea. Anyway, uh, go read our post on it to see what we think about it. That's enough diatribe, right? Enough to I try for today. All right. So, we have a couple questions in from John Meyer. I met him, what, yesterday, day before? And 1st question is on cheese tempering. So the question is, hey, listen, I bought some cheese and I put it in my fridge. You know, I think maybe that was, you know, maybe the 1st mistake, put it in the fridge. I mean, depends if you're going to buy the cheese today. I would never put it in the fridge. We get into that. I have cheese. It's in the fridge. I forgot to take it out. Or I bought it, you know, you know, right before I went to somebody's house and it was in the refrigerated
+
+[5:47] case at the store. The store doesn't know how to keep their cheese, XYZ, whatever. And the problem is now I have to eat it. What can I do besides throwing it in the oven and or the
+
+[5:56] microwave or just waiting for a couple of hours? Well, I feel your pain, John, I really do. I remember once I flew back from France and I smuggled in my favorite. I think my favorite cheese in the world, which is Vashram Mondor. My wife used to have to go out to France, to Paris, every January for a trade show, and I would go out with her, and I would, you know, just
+
+[6:15] basically swim through like, like wheel after wheel of Ashramandor. And, you know, you cut off the top, you scoop it out, you eat it all, and there really is almost no better experience on Earth than crusty bread and Vashramondorp. you know, that's it. That's the kind of the apogee. So far in my life. I mean, anyway, hopefully it gets better. Right? I mean, you hope that you hope that you don't have the like, you know, the ultimate food experience like that and you know, you're only not even 40 yet and then that's it. Anyway. So the... So I smuggled this thing back and I'm planning on having Sunday family dinner, because every Sunday I have family dinner, the family comes over to my
+
+[6:49] house and we cook a big meal. And, uh, horror of horror, it was put in the fridge. I won't say, you know, I won't say by whom. It was put in the fridge and there wasn't enough time to temper the thing out. And, uh, and I was, I was, you know, it was just, it was one of the worst food experiences of my life because it tasted good. I put it in the oven, but it tasted good, but it wasn't, you know, the greatest thing in the world. It wasn't what it should have been. Like, here you smuggle this wheel of cheese back. you think it should be the greatest thing in the world it wasn't. So I definitely feel your pain, John. Here are my suggestions to you. One, if you're buying cheese, just don't put it in the dang fridge. If you have a wine cooler, put it in the wine cooler, let it sit there unless it's going to go for a very long time, it's going to be fine or something like a mozzarella. Even when I buy mozzarella. I buy it. I don't put it in the fridge. Even if I buy it in the morning, I'm going to eat it in the evening. I don't put it in the fridge. Because I know I'm going to put it in the fridge or freeze it after I'm done that 1st day because I don't carry it over to the 2nd day anyway because I use it for cooking at that point. And mozzarella really will be okay in a cool spot for the whole day. You don't need to worry about it. That's one. I should also further say that there are some people. I am not one of them, but there are some people that feel that cheeses should be served a lot cooler than we serve them in general, that they should be served at
+
+[7:59] cellar temp, basically at your wine cooler temp. I don't agree with that, but there's some very, you know, fine cheese sources that do say that. Okay, so one is just don't ever put it in the fridge. This would be my 1st recommendation. Um, Second would be, you could, and this doesn't apply to soft cheeses like Vashran or things like that, but harder cheeses, and I hate this, but you could do this. You can cut the cheese up into slices beforehand, cover it with a layer of plastic
+
+[8:22] wrap and chamber them because they'll chamber very rapidly if they're cut into pieces. I happen to not like that because I hate the look of the cheese as it warms up sweating out or the fat coming up to the top. I don't prefer precise cheese, but this is definitely an option if there's no other alternative. Now, on the subway over here, I thought of a 3rd alternative that you might want to look
+
+[8:40] at that I've never actually tried, but I guarantee it will work. That is, take tap water, turn it on so that the temperature of the tap water is roughly in the mid
+
+[8:50] 80s. So slightly below your body temperature, but slightly warmer than your normal tap water, which is probably running between
+
+[8:55] 50 Depends on where you live, but could be as high as 60 or 70 degrees.
+
+[9:00] Put it up to about 80 degrees, and then put your cheese in a Ziploc
+
+[9:05] bag and use the instructions on the cooking issue blog under the low temperature primer
+
+[9:10] on, which I need to finish. Jeez. How to package things in Ziplocs. Basically, put it in a ziploc, and you immerse the thing in the ziploc underwater to force out the air, you close it, then keep that ziploc bag in the running tap water at the right temperature, and it will chamber lickety split without the water getting on the
+
+[9:28] cheese and without overheating it. Because I really find there's no good way to temper out cheese in a microwave or in an oven without ruining a good portion of it. What do you think, Steph? I think that's a good answer. Yeah, good answer. All right, good. thanks Uh, okay. Uh, 2nd question from John is, uh, saw Richard Blaze on uh, on uh, his television program. I was trying to make pizza, threw a bunch of Binchotan charcoal in there and got his oven up to, you know, 800, 900 degrees Fahrenheit. That's a good trick. I hadn't thought. the question is, is it going to ruin your oven? Is it safe, et cetera, et cetera. Well, that's a separate question. But I feel that that would work. I mean, I have electric, I have electric heaters, electric stone heaters in the bottom and top of my oven to jack the temperature up to 850, that's how I do it, but you could definitely light a
+
+[10:13] coal's in your in your oven. Here are the caveats. One, the Japanese have been cooking with coal indoors for a long time. Every bag of coal that you purchase will say right on it that you're not allowed to cook it inside. And the reason is, they don't want to generate, A, a lot of smoke and B, a lot of carbon monoxide. So, you know, one, I would say that if you're going to burn coal inside of your kitchen, you better have some good ventilation. That's one. Please have some good ventilation. But that said, places that do have good
+
+[10:39] ventilations, do do it inside, although no one in the United States will tell you it's safe. Okay? Secondly, he's using benchiton charcoal, which is an extremely expensive form of Japanese charcoal, which, theoretically, they say, gives off less smoke than our standard ordinary charcoal here in the
+
+[10:55] US. However, if you buy real hardwood charcoal that you open it up and the thing looks like it was a piece of wood back in the day and is now a piece of charcoal, I mean, I don't know how much better the bench
+
+[11:07] a ton can be than that stuff, it burns fairly clean for a charcoal you can get here and isn't that
+
+[11:13] expensive. They carry it at Home Depot, they carry it at some stores. So you could do that. Now, uh, it's gonna, like, I don't, Benchitan or whatever, you know, Kingsford Briquettes, don't use Kingsford Briquettes in your oven, but any of these things, nothing against the Kingsford Corporation. Any of these things, no matter what, are going to generate some carbon monoxide, so you should need to be aware of that and you need to ventilate it properly. The 3rd thing is are you going to damage the oven? Uh, well, it's possible. depends on what your oven is made out of. I mean, I would elevate the stuff on a grate. You're going to need to make sure that air can, you have a sufficient air supply in your oven to get it started. And I would also put a heat shield above it, like a piece of steel or something above the direct flame. So if you, where to build the, uh, put your pizza stone in the bottom of the oven, then build the
+
+[12:02] binchoton on top of that, then have some sort of like a deflectorcheal above in case you get a roaring fire up. And please try not to get a roaring fire. I think theoretically as possible. Also, don't overload it. Don't go crazy. You're basically just trying to get an extra 100 or 2 degrees out of it because your
+
+[12:19] oven's probably going to make it up to 550 and you're only looking for an extra couple 100 degrees out of it. So I think the idea is just to not go super crazy with the amount of coal that you put
+
+[12:28] in, right? Yeah, but he lives in New York, so he's right. He does? Yeah. It's not really the oven. He renting. Oh, well, if it's a rental, then. Go ahead. Do it. Then when your landlord comes, be like, huh? What? Yeah, if you're in New York, I doubt you have decent ventilation, I'll tell you a little story. I might have told this on the radio once already. I did? Yeah. I want to lit enough coal in my house. I have a good hood. I want enough coal in my house to ignite the small hibachi that I had put into
+
+[13:00] it and yeah, almost got me divorced. you know, not yet. Anyway, so be careful. Be careful. Although I have seen people light Benchitan charcoal inside our amphitheater at the school and not have basically any smoke at all
+
+[13:14] because, you know, they would light it on top of the gas burners. They would ignite it and then they'd pull it off and it is fairly clean burning, more clean burning than most of most of our charcoals. But again, only use it for that extra couple 100 degrees to pump up. All right. So listen, we're going to have you call in all your questions too. 718-4972128. 718-497-2128. We going to go to our 1st commercial break cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. Play so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in, yeah. How you feeling, fellas? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a punk good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high.
+
+[14:23] All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? You gotta take it home.
+
+[14:35] Brother? Yeah? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow up my 2 courses. Welcome back to cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Call your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I hear we have a caller. Hello, caller. on the air. Hey, I was listening to the 1st part of the show and I also find that things are bad when they're put in the fridge. What is, why is that? What is the chemical reaction happening that takes taste away from
+
+[15:03] like vegetables and cheeses and meats and like cured meats when they're actually put in a
+
+[15:09] cold space? That's a very interesting question. Uh, I think, you know, the everything's different with different uh, with different products. So, you know, in tomatoes, it's the texture that gets ruined of the tomato, never to come back. Cheese, a lot of it is reversible. We did a study once, where we took balls of mozzarella, fresh ones, all from the same batch, and we refrigerated some, and then let them chamber for a long time back, and
+
+[15:37] it's posted on the blood, but a long time ago. And, um, we did, you know, most of it actually does come back. I mean, we think there is some effect that putting it in the in the fridge ever, hurts its texture irrevocably, but it's not as much as we generally
+
+[15:51] think, because the texture of cheese is so dependent on temperature that even a couple of degrees in the center of like a ball of mozzarella or something like that means the difference between it being, you know, delicious and, you know, oozy, you know, awesome and and being rubbery,
+
+[16:07] right? So it's like part of it is the fact that I think we never do allow something enough time to chamber up. But, I mean, also, like something like cured meats also, I haven't run a side by side, clearly out of the, like, you know, everyone says when you're tasting cured meats when they're
+
+[16:23] cold. You know, put them on your tongue, let them warm up, but it's not, I mean, look, it's not the same thing as having a piece of meat served you at the right
+
+[16:30] temperature and not having to like lay it on your tongue for 30 seconds to try and warm it up. Do you know what I'm saying? So, with that, I don't know what the actual problem is. I mean, like certain effects like this, like with cheese, the question is, or tomatoes, this happens just from the temperature change. And then there's problems with the refrigerator itself. So, uh, you know, like uh, or freezer, right? Which could be desiccating, it could be removing moisture, it could be adding really bad aromas. Most fridges, like, you know, for most fridges have awful aromas on the inside of them. Just turn off the fridge, which allows the volatiles to become, you know, kind
+
+[17:05] of, you know, better for your nose. And you can see kind of the nasty things that are going on in your fridge. But, um, I'd have to research kind of other, like, which vegetables do you have in mind as being never as good when they're in the fridge. Some, by the way, are never as good after they're stored, period, because you change their metabolism. Most of these vegetables, a lot of vegetables are basically still alive when they're being pulled, right? And so, you know, you alter their metabolism rate, you change their metabolism rate, and they just are turning to crap anyway. So the fact that you're putting it in the fridge and storing it for longer means you're reducing its quality. Does that make sense? Absolutely. All right. Well, I'll look into this more. Maybe we'll talk about it, right, Nastasia? We'll look we'll look into this more and we'll talk about it more. All right. Did I hear another ring? Do we have someone in or out? No. Okay. So I have another question then from John, and this is a doozy. This is going to take a while. So dig yourself in, nostalgia. Nastasia's going to actually have to pay attention instead of, I don't know, doing whatever she normally does. Drift off into sleep while I'm speaking. And the question is, and this was actually posed to me by several people in the past couple of days. Why is it, or how is it, that we use ice? We use salt to melt ice on the roads, right? Although we're usually using calcium chloride, not sodium chloride, but principle is the same. Why do we do that? And at the same time, when we're in a kitchen, if we want to make something really, really cold, we want to keep our stuff cold, we dump salt
+
+[18:25] onto ice. So in one case, it seems like we're using it to melt it, which seems like we're warming it up. And in the other case, we're using it to actually cool it down to make it, you know, colder. And so what's going on? Seems like a contradiction, right? Right. It's not. It's not a contradiction And this is something that is actually poorly explained by most high school teachers when you're learning it, not by my high school
+
+[18:49] teacher, Mrs. Zook, my chemistry teacher was awesome, but maybe that's where I am today. But, uh, but, uh, well, I never had snow in California,
+
+[18:59] so... Oh, nanny, nanny, nanny, nanny, poo-poo. All right. So, you know, I come from a place where we have seasons where I don't have to drive to see snow. Uh, so uh, no offense. California. Okay, so here's what's going on. When you add, it's all, it's actually kind of complicated, but, you know, bear with me. It's all about a fight between heat enthalpy and entropy, right? So here's what happens. In order to melt ice, you need heat. That makes sense, right, Nastasia? You need heat to melt ice, right? And the reason why is because ice is at a lower energy than water at the same temperature. So in order to make it from ice into water, you have to add energy. And that's called the heat of fusion, right? And that takes about 80 calories, 80 calories per mole, right? So every gram that promote, no, per gram, whatever. Anyway, 80 cal- melting one gram of water is enough. I put it this way. Melting one gram of water, I believe, is enough energy to raise that same gram of water 80 degrees. Again. That's how much energy it is. So it's not insubstantial, right? It's a lot of energy. It's called the heat effusion. Okay, so it requires energy to melt the ice. Now, which means, right, that things want to be at a lower energy. So at, you know, in general, uh, things want to turn into ice to go into that lower lower energy state to give off that, uh, you know, that heat and become ice. Now, there's a competing principle here, which is things like to be disordered. Entropy, right, is basically how much a disorder there is in a system, and the universe wants to be disordered, chaotic, have, you know, lots of different states available for everything, maximum chaos, you know, like our lives.
+
+[20:44] And, um, and so what happens is, is that, um, at 0 degrees where ice normally melts, it's the point at which the
+
+[20:53] amount of uh, the amount of entropy, right? the amount of heat that you have to that you have to add to melt the ice is balanced by the amount of entropy gain you get from
+
+[21:07] melting it. It's not making any sense, people. Read it on our blog. make more sense. But it's this fight between enthalpy and entropy and it's all balanced on temperature. When you add salt to system, right? What happens is, is that now there's, it's more states of disorder that water can be in when it's
+
+[21:27] in, um, when it's in a solution with the salt. So therefore, right, the entropy win is greater and the temperature at which the stuff freezes drops. So now you can forget everything I said for the last 3 minutes because I'm sure it didn't make any sense. Read it on our blog and keep this in your head. When you add ice to add salt to ice. What you're doing is making it so that everything wants to freeze at a lower temperature. And we all know that, you know, salt water freezes at a lower temperature than ice, right? So here's what goes on. In order for the ice to melt into salt water, you need to have heat. Heat needs to go into the system to do it. But where's the heat gonna come from, Nastasia? Where is he going to come from? No. The heat's gonna come from the ice. The heat's going to come from the ice. So when you take a big block of salt ice and you add salt on it, right? Like the ice is going to start to melt into the salt, it's going to form a brine, but in order to do it, it's going to require heat, that heat has to come from the block of
+
+[22:26] ice because that's the easiest way for it to get it. It's not going to suck it out of the air because that's not fast enough. And so the entire block of ice along with the salt brine is going to get colder. And that's what's happening when you're making your mise en place, right? Now, if there's not enough ice there, right, to all get colder and not melt, you melt it all out,
+
+[22:45] right? Furthermore, if you let it sit there for a long time, energy is going to go into the
+
+[22:49] air and then it's going to keep remelting more. So it's basically, the same thing happens. When you put salt on ice on a road. Initially, the whole block of ice is gonna get colder, right? And then it's eventually going to melt off alonging, as long as you've depressed the freezing point long enough, such that it can't freeze in your ambient atmosphere.
+
+[23:14] And that temperature where it's going to freeze, right? In ambient atmosphere, in a fully saturated salt solution is quite low. Like, you know, in the minus tens. So it's so the system all works and it's not a contradiction and it didn't make a damn bit of sense. No one's gonna understand what the hell I was talking about. We should have your old chemistry teacher, then. Mrs. Zook? We should have Mrs. Zook on. But you can go on the blog and look up cocktail science. The very 1st cocktail science we post I posted about a year and a half ago, has a much more lucid and easier to follow, easier to reread explanation of
+
+[23:45] it, and I apologize for kind of going all over the place. What do you think? Did make any damn sense at all? We have a caller. We have a caller, even though that made no damn sense at all. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hopefully I'll make more sense. Oh, hi, sorry, this is Antoinette. Um, I have a question that's completely off topic, so I don't know if uh, if you want to wait for me a few more minutes to go through the ice. Well, no, no, no. How off topic? Let's hear it. Like, really? Like something about cars? No, I was wondering, have you read Andrew Bear's Mark Twain's feast? No, I haven't. Tell me a little bit about it. It's, he, he goes through Twain's, a tramp abroad, and Twain went through how he loved all these American foods that no longer exists,
+
+[24:25] and uh, he tries to recreate all these dishes from the 1800s. Oh, how is it?
+
+[24:31] It's all, it's, it's, I recommend it. I, I, I do recommend it. I love I love Twain. I mean, I love Twain. He's one of the great kind of, you know, funny misanthropic writers, you know, of America, wouldn't you think? No, definitely. I agree. I think you'll like this book. I definitely recommend you get it. And um, what I was calling about is, Twain apparently liked his coffee, American coffee, much more than coffee abroad, because of our milk, and they're guessing it's because it was raw milk, and I wanted to know your thoughts on the raw milk debate.
+
+[25:05] Raw milk debate. Well, okay. I mean, uh, so wait, so their theory was that the milk in uh, in Europe was pasteurized before the milk is was here. I don't know. I don't know the actual, I don't know the truth or falsity of that. Um, I know that the milk we used to get was alternately in the milk back in the day, back in the day, they like pre, for instance, pre-Erie Canal, pre-railroad into New York City, the milk we used to get was
+
+[25:30] alternately was horrible here, but could be much better in the country where now we kind of get a kind of broadband mediocre milk,
+
+[25:37] uh, no offense to the milk people. My feeling on the raw milk is that I'm sure that there is both good milk, good raw milk and bad raw
+
+[25:47] milk. I have had some fantastic raw milk, and I'm sure you're aware that, you know, here in the United States, you have to buy it directly from the farm. So, for instance, we have a farm in at the green market here in New York that sells raw milk when you buy in upstate New York at the farm and it has warning labels all
+
+[26:04] over it, but they can't ship it into New York to sell it at the farmer's market here. Give me my debate on its taste or my debate on the law. I mean, the law is absurd. But, I mean, okay. The law is ridiculous. The law was originally put in place because they thought that you could get tuberculosis from
+
+[26:20] cows and so they started pasteurizing the milk. I'm sure pasteurization has done a lot of good, you know,
+
+[26:28] keeping milk for a longer period of time, but there's no question that, um, I mean, you can have really good cheeses that are made with patrized milk, obviously, I've had many, many,
+
+[26:38] but, uh, you know, that said, you know, most of the great cheeses of the world outside of the
+
+[26:42] U.S. are made with unpasteurized milk. So it would be interesting to do a side-by-side test, which I've never done, of the same exact company, same exact process, pasturized versus not, same milk, same cow. I've never I've never had that happen. I had great experience with the raw milk that I've purchased at farms here, but it's because they're great farmers and they make great milk. Do you know what I'm saying? And the milk and a lot more happens to our milk other than just pasteurization. You know, it's broken up, it's homogenized. So, um, you know, I think there's a, there's a lot wrong with, uh, there's a lot wrong with our milk supply based on what it could be. I mean, it's really only ideal in the sense of it's relatively cheap compared to what it actually, you know, probably should cost if it was done
+
+[27:26] right, and it lasts a relatively long time, but that's about all I can say kind of good about it. What do you think? Well, I think, um, I think it's a little absurd. The law, again, like as you said before, but also I think it's almost impossible to really recreate the mill set, uh,
+
+[27:44] Twain is talking about as Andrew Bears is trying to do in the book. I don't know how we would possibly be able to recreate it exactly. Uh, yeah, I mean, there are people that have the same kind of breeds of cows. They're treating them in the same kind of way. It's just not mass. I mean, I'm sure in a microwave, you could go reproduce it because, you know, you could go to someone who's pasturing a very similar cow. The breed of cow that we're, you know, around back then are still extant. And, you know, you can get them, you could find someone milking them, uh, and you can get it directly from the cow, you know, uh, this is all possible. It's just not feasible in New York, for instance. Do you know what I mean? I'm talking to a bunch of food scientists who say that I'm a jerk for saying that the law is absurd because they point to the fact that, you know,
+
+[28:30] indeed there are diseases you can get from raw milk cheeses that haven't been
+
+[28:35] pasteurized. And it is true that there are a certain number of people who,
+
+[28:40] you know, can, I guess, contract diseases from raw milk. However, I'm willing to take that. I'm more than willing to take that risk. And 9 times out of 10 nowadays in the US, when someone gets a disease off of a cheese, for instance, or a dairy product, it's off of
+
+[28:54] a pasteurized product that's just been stored incorrectly. So, I mean, the big, uh, the big, you know, problems in the past, I think in the 70s and 80s where, like, queso
+
+[29:02] blanco queso fresco that were just, uh, you know, not, uh, that didn't have any back, because, you know, having a bacteriological, you know, having a bacteria component of culture in the milk protects it against certain pathogens.
+
+[29:14] So I think it's actually kind of these pasteurized and then stored in properly recontaminated products can sometimes be less safe. But, you know, again, I've had dairy scientists, you know, just tell me that I was a complete jackass for saying that,
+
+[29:27] but I mean, look, I think we should just slap a label on it. I'm allowed to smoke if I want. You know what I mean? For instance. And I think that's a lot more dangerous than, you know, eating the cheese that I want. And I think, and their point is, yes, but the consumer doesn't know that there's a risk to eating cheese, whereas they know there's a risk to
+
+[29:44] smoking. So I say, hey, why don't we just slap a warning label on it. And they're like, well, a producer wouldn't want to do that and be like, I would love that. You kidding me? Like, you think that the people that I know that I hang out with that are paying a bazillion dollars a pound for a block of cheese anyway, right? And I used to, she was always my favorite thing in the world because, you know, my theory was I could afford the best cheese in the world.
+
+[30:05] I can't afford the best wine. It's no longer really the case because cheeses have gotten so expensive. But, you know, you know, we can afford to have at least a little bit of the best cheese in the world. And I think that we would flock to achieve that had a big old warning label on it saying it was made with raw meat. We would look for it. It wouldn't be that it would frighten us. We would actually seek it out, you know, but anyway, that's just my feeling on it. But I'm definitely going to check out that book as a fan of Twain and as a fan of 19th century American cooking.
+
+[30:31] And, you know, an interesting, you know, the take on 19th century American cooking, I guess that most sticks in my head was, what was her name? Oh my god, Hesse. The couple, what was their name? Oh my god. My head's gone. He was the, she was a famous food historian. He was a, uh, he was a New York Times critic for a while and they they wrote a book called uh, Taste of America. She just passed away recently. Real curmudgeon. Like her main gripe was that American food used to be great before the invention of baking powder. You know, and that baking powder ruined everything. That was her basic, that was her basic tenet. And she was a real kind of like, I think a tough, you know, a tough individual, but she was hanging out with the likes of William
+
+[31:10] Weiss Weaver. Uh, and, you know, writers like that, people who really have kept, uh, you know, William Boyce Weaver is big on uh, Pennsylvania Dutch and food saving and heirloom vegetables. And these guys have really brought back a lot of the old recipes. And I think there's a lot of value there. So I'm definitely going to check out that book and thanks for bringing it to our attention. No problem. Alrighty. Let's go another break. Oh, a commercial break time? All right, we're going to a commercial break. Please call in all your questions too. 718. Whatever it is, 497-2128. 718-497-2128. Cooking issues. Good feeling good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want all people to know you're in here. How you feeling, Bella? Yeah, yeah. You're getting done. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. They'll take them up, Fred. We gotta take you home.
+
+[32:22] All right. I want to do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, they do on that. You gotta take you home.
+
+[32:34] Bam! Brother? Yeah. Now, I want everybody. Let red flow in my two course. Welcome back to cooking as you still got a couple minutes left here in the studio, although I'm told we will have to get off the air at
+
+[32:45] 745 fairly properly. 745. Oh my god, 1245. on my brain. My brain is fried. I'm talking about frying in a minute. Call your questions two. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We have a question about a registry, huh, Nastasia? What we got? Same fried chicken guy. which one do you want to go? I want the, that's very nice. I apologize, Clayton, for you being referred to as same fried chicken guy. So let's that's why we call her the hammer. No tact, no tact, just a hammer, big blunt instrument. Anyway, give us the, give us the registration question, and then we'll do a fried chicken later. All right. One more question if he has time. I'm getting married soon and would like to use my wedding registry to beef up my kitchen. What are a few items that any modern cook shouldn't be without? Okay, I would recommend you get some rich friends. That's the 1st thing. and register for an immersion circulator. If you do not already own an immersion circulator, you should register for an immersion circulator. If you throw 3 parties this year, you will be happy that you have an immersion circulator. And let me think about this for a minute, because I'm just thinking about this. And then we're going to take a call and we'll come back to it along with the fried chicken question. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, this is Hannah. I'm just calling because I like to buy kind of chicken and fish and I'm always looking for a new healthy sauce to cook with them. Right? Do you have any recommendations? A new healthy what? sauce? Sauce to cook with chicken or fish? Wow, uh, I in general, so you want a thick sauce or a thin sauce, you want something to serve or you want
+
+[34:11] something, something separate? what are you, what are you looking for? Well, I tend. I'm just getting bored of my ones. I'm ready and I tend to just do kind of, um, a tomato base, like a passata with, um, just onions and some spices. Um, so anything different already. All right. So here's what I would recommend. Anytime you're looking to change your sauce repertoire. 1st of all, there's a very good, very, very good book on sauces. I highly recommend it by James Peterson called Sauces. It won like a Beard Award, like maybe about 12 years ago. It's available kind of very cheaply, I think, on Amazon now, or, you know, you use. It's fantastic book. And what I like about it is it teaches like basically fundamentals of sauce making and how to build on sauces starting with certain
+
+[34:55] bases. So what I would do is I would come up with a couple of techniques that you like that you can then build a bunch of flavors off of. So for instance, whenever I have a vegetarian, now you're talking about chicken, so it's, you know, it's different, but you can use the sauce. Whenever I have vegetarians coming over, I do one of it, which is a lot, actually. I have various variations of fundamental coconut milk sauce that we make. And if you have a good blender. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, you know, we'll do, you know, it's, so it's a variant on Indian, but you could switch it to Asian or Thai if you
+
+[35:30] want. It's just, you know, uh, pre-cook your, your, uh, your, um, your onions, your shallots or whatever you want, your garlic, then put in your spices, you know, hit them with the heat a little
+
+[35:40] bit, then I usually put in cashews, sometimes tomato paste.
+
+[35:44] If I want it red, sometimes not, then your, you know, your coconut milk, you know, your heat, blend, correct with lime,
+
+[35:50] and or soy, and or whatever. But I have like maybe 15, 16 sauces that I can build out of the simple idea that I'm going to start with frying my ingredients, toasting the spices, throwing in probably a nut to beef it
+
+[36:03] up, and then coconut milk and blend. Similarly, I have, you know, 13 or 14 different variants of, uh, you know, frying up. I can say, I'll start with frying the onions and garlic, uh, frying
+
+[36:16] that, and then, uh, you know, some form of cheese, cheese, uh, you know, and herb and oil blended. Or so they all work that way. And, you know, these are all basically separate sauces that you can make in advance. I mean, then, of course, the obvious is, you know, the pan sauce, whatever based on what's in the pan, which is usually some form of deglazing. So it all it all depends on kind of like building up building up your your repertoire, I would choose a taste flavor that you like. Like if you like an Indian profile, I would get like, you know, a couple of the base spices in your kitchen that you need to do it, coriander, cardamom,
+
+[36:46] uh, cumin, you know, things like this, uh, and have them just ready. And then, you know, whenever you want to make a sauce, you know, it's it's whatever, wherever your heart takes you that night and you, and you, you blend it. But it's just having, you know, if tomatoes, your only base to start with now, then, you know, there's only so far you can go with that. So then you just, you know, stock out your pantry and get a couple of different, get an emulsified sauce in there. Like, so start building on, on, like, hollandaise slash Bernese-based differences. Those are delicious. Everyone likes them. And they're really, they're really quite simple. You don't need to have clarified butter. You know, you can look up Harold McGee, I think, wrote about it. And we might have it on the blog very, very fast, Hollandaise, or Bernese, or any one of those sauces, no sauces form a fantastic base for other things.
+
+[37:29] It's just a question of changing the flavors. And so you can really kind of alleviate boredom by just picking one or 2 of these sauce families, right? And then working with it from there and really, really expand out. And that's how I think all good cooks expand their repertoires by
+
+[37:44] like taking some new basic nugget and then building on it again and again and again through repetition. helpful at all or no? That is. And would you say using frying the herbs before you then add in the sauce? It depends. So like the, you know, the classic that a lot of the dry spices and things like ginger, things like nuts, I tend to fry before I add the liquids
+
+[38:06] because I, you know, I've never done it side by side, though. It's interesting, but theoretically, you know, that's how it's done in those
+
+[38:12] cuisines, and so I just, I tend to do it. And, you know, they say that it releases the aromas. I don't know if that's actually true. Well, it probably, if there's a high heat involved, it actually does probably do some sort of toasting,
+
+[38:23] frying, and changing the base notes that are involved, because I know that, for instance, toasted caraway, tastes very different from untoasted
+
+[38:29] caraway, not better, not where it's different. And so it's just, it tends to be something that I do. I don't ever pre-cook green herbs. And, you know, always like the dried spices, not dried herbs, more dried spices that you tend to
+
+[38:42] hit. You know, just make sure you don't scorch the garlic, et cetera, et cetera. But then throw it on the blender. and it goes me. The blender is like, you know, especially I have a vita prep at home that'll take a pound of bacon and emulsified into a sauce and no one will even know it's there other than the flavor. No one will know from a texture standpoint. So a good blender is a definite sauce maker's friend in the kitchen these
+
+[39:00] days because it definitely saves me a lot of a lot of heartache. Anyway. So, uh, so... All right, thank you. Thanks for the call. All right, now I'm going to... No, why don't you just finish the wedding one? You can't get to the gym. Watch me. Four minutes? Watch me. You're taking a portion of my 4 minutes to tell me that I can't answer this question in 4 minutes. This is a lady who berates me for my Martha Stewart position where I was supposed to do 3 cocktails. I did 3 quarters of a cocktail. Here we go. All right. listen, I'm going to think more about your registry problem. Light up prep. Oh, yeah, but you can't register. Where can you register for a Vita prep? If you can find a place, here's what I here's what I would want. Get yourself a Vita prep, get yourself an immersion circulator, buy your own vacuum machine or get, you know, a, you know, cheap one, whatever, um,
+
+[39:44] Obviously, if you don't already own a decent set of knives, get have them buy you a good set of pots. For Christ's sakes, get a good set of pots. I mean, when I registered, I had like a mismatch of different pots, and now I have like kind of the standard
+
+[39:57] pots, and even though I got them, you know, 18 years ago, whatever it is, you know, 15 years ago, uh, when I was registered, I'm still loving them
+
+[40:05] today, they're fine. I have the, you know, standard kind of all clads, but definitely hit all those big ticket
+
+[40:09] items. Yeah, ditch the China and get all that other stuff. Yeah, forget China. Who wants China? It's gonna break anyway. Get the Vita Prep, get the immersion circulator, get some decent pots, get some decent knives,
+
+[40:21] right? And then if Nastasia thinks of anything while I'm talking, we'll go for that. Okay, now, on your fried chicken question, you make fried chicken only about once a month, that's a reasonable amount, although, you know, you can make it more. Keeping the oil, how do you keep the oil after you're done because the oil can be expensive. Is it worthwhile to keep the oil? Okay, listen. The enemies to oil are basically oxidation and breakdown when you're cooking and when you're storing. What causes that breakdown to happen. First of all, fresh oil is kind of bad anyway. You should always fry a little bit with your oil. It really picks up quick, especially at home because you're probably pretty brutal on the oil, but, you know, fresh oil actually isn't the best. You want to use it a little bit because what happens is the oil breaks down somewhat. And when it breaks down, it becomes, it has more polar components, so it actually can attack the food and fry it a lot faster. So a little bit of oil breakdown is actually helpful. But in general, don't worry about your oil being too fresh at home because it ain't going to be fresh for long. Anyway, so the main things that are going to kill your oil is if you're overheating it. If you overheat your oil, which you tend to do, not you, but one tends to do on a stove,
+
+[41:22] the temperature cycles up and down, up and down and way high. That's going to ruin oil very quickly, and if it gets really dark in color, it's not going to be worthwhile and you probably won't keep it. The other thing is, if you get a lot of particles floating in the bottom that burn, those will cause your oil to go down really
+
+[41:39] fast. And the 2nd is if you're frying a lot of high liquid stuff. sprays out into it or lots of salts. You're going to notice the oil is going to start foaming a lot more, and the oil is going to go south fast. So a lot of how long you can keep the oil is how you treated it when you're frying. We use an oil, if you can go to a commercial supplier and get a 5
+
+[41:56] gallon, you know, wherever it is, £30 or 5 gallon pail of oil, the professional fry oil that we use is 8 times better than the fry oil you can get in a
+
+[42:05] supermarket because it has antioxidants in it, which means the oil is going to last a lot longer. Okay, that's one, two. When you store it, you want to let it cool down, and then right
+
+[42:15] away that night, you want to pour it, filter it through 1st like a strainer, and then through something finer, like some napkins or cloth, to get all the particles out of it, because those are really
+
+[42:24] going to make your oil turn to crap. Then, when you store it, you want to store it outside of the light, because if it's stored in the light, you're going to get more oxidation. So you want to store it in a dark, cool place. You want it to be filtered and you want it to stay, you know, in a cool area. You want to make sure you don't do too much temperature cycling on it. And here's the best way to find out if your oil is crappy, right? Take a little bit of your oil, heat it up in a pan, and fry a piece of white bread in it, and then eat the white bread. White bread is extremely neutral. It soaks up a lot of oil, and it's the best way other than just dipping your finger in and tasting it to figure out whether you're going to get any off notes in your fried products from the oil that you're using.
+
+[43:03] And that's my standard technique in the kitchen to determine if an oil has gone too far to keep using is I do a bread fry test. All right. Now, I have 30 seconds on the way out. Jarrett called in and or wrote in. And he said, hey, when I make my dashi, right? I eat a huge bowl of it and I get all buzzed and I have to sit down and watch comedy programs because I get a buzz.
+
+[43:24] Is this from the glutamic acid? And I don't know whether this key, you know, you know, keys in with the kind of pot questions we had before, but I definitely, I know you gave us our recipe. I want to know kind of what secret ingredient you're putting in to get buzzed. I have never noticed this. I've never heard, I couldn't find any reputable cases of monosodium glutamate intoxication, but the last time I got drunk without
+
+[43:49] drinking was an ice cream party, random. I found an ice cream machine. I look more Jared, by the way. I'm about to own a tangent on the way out of here. I found an ice cream machine on the side of the street, a soft serve ice cream machine. It was all broken and beat and battered, weighed £900. I wheeled it into my apartment, wired it into 3 separate circuits because it took
+
+[44:06] 3 phase power and it was all demented, finally got it to work. The refrigeration didn't work, so I had to throw dry ice into it, all these nightmare problems. I had a giant soft serve party where I actually went up to the Bronx to Mr.
+
+[44:17] Softy, which is our local ice cream soft serve ice cream here and bought a bunch of gallons of Mr. Softy ice cream mix and threw the most disgusting party in the world. It was all it was was champagne and all you could eat soft serve ice cream out of an ice cream tap, you know, because we had the big soft serve machine with all the toppings.
+
+[44:34] And I didn't even have anything to drink that night, but I must have eaten, I don't know, like a half gallon of ice
+
+[44:39] cream. And I felt completely looped drunk crazy. And so that's the only similar experience I've had to a non-alcohol base buzz on a food
+
+[44:47] I've done and it wasn't related to MSG. or to Dashi. But I definitely want your Dashi recipe if you can get a, if you get buzzed off of it, Jared. So I'll look into it some more. And for this week, it's cooking issues. Come back next week, this next Tuesday, 12, 12 noon. Vicious, fish, vodka.
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's
+
+[0:16] in their studio, because they talk to people who are serious about food, and that's what we are at
+
+[0:22] Fairways. We're serious about food. We just care very deeply about you as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you
+
+[0:31] entertain. And that's why we love to support heritage radio because it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're gonna find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on
+
+[0:59] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark.
+
+[1:16] Vicious fish vodka. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, the show where you call them, all of your cooking related questions, technical or not. I'm Dave Arnold. You are a host of cooking issues here with Nastasia the Lopez. Lopez, the Hammer Lopez, that's it. My brain's a little frazzled because I'm actually here on time today, which doesn't usually happen. I'm not used to having any time before we go on air. So it's, you know, a little bit different from normal. But calling all of your questions live to the studio at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 here on a
+
+[1:50] Sleety Brooklyn Tuesday. Although it's not as bad as they, if it wants to. Not supposed to get really bad. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I don't believe that. I don't believe it. Yeah, it's a load a load of malarkey, right? All right. Did I already give the number? Yes. I did. I did give the number. Okay. So we have a question from Paul. Paul writes in, hi, Dave. My one-year-old kids love eating with their hands, who doesn't like, you know, my nine-year-old, I have to break him
+
+[2:14] of eating with his hands, I'll not get, this one's a hand, this one's a four. No. Oh, really? No, he's nine. Yeah, my oldest one. I have 9 and a six. Anyway, my one-year-old kids love eating with their hands and Jell- jelly or Jell-O to us Americans is a particular favorite. I don't want to give them too much sugar, so I wanted to turn fruit juice into jelly using gelatin. We get locally produced orange juice delivered weekly, so that seemed like a good start. I used one. 7% fish gelatin. This is the key here, fish gelatin, which should be more than enough to set, by the way. And then light in the granules, bloom in one third of the juice, heat in the other two thirds to boiling, mixing the 2 parts and stirring till dissolved. It's only been in the fridge 3 hours now, but I'm not convinced it's going to solidify. Do you have any tips? I'd prefer to stick with fish gelatin if possible. Okay, couple of things. One, I don't think you need to boil all of it. I think you could probably, um, I think you could probably, you know, do it in a smaller amount because I think you're going to be altering the flavor of the juice by boiling, um, boiling so much of it. I think the main issue you're having here is with the fish gel and fish gelatin. I think we spoke about gelatin a bit last week, right, or the week before. Yeah. Fish gelatin usually isn't as strong as regular gelatin. It's a lot lighter of a jelly. you know, on a per weight basis. Also, fish gelatin tends to set at a much lower temperature than regular gelatin. So it is going to take quite a bit longer to cool off and set in your fridge. So it might be that you just need to wait longer because your percentages should be enough. It's never probably going to get as hard as a regular gel. The other problem with fish gelatin is, I don't know what brand you're using, but unlike beef gelatin or pig derived gelatin, fish gelatin is extremely variable in terms of its qualities.
+
+[3:52] So, for instance, it's like a cold water fish gelatin. It sets at a ridiculously low temperature. It's like, you know, it's not really, I mean, I don't know. I don't have that much experience with it, but from what I read, cold water fish gelatin is tough to work with. So you're probably using a warmer water fish gelton. Fish gelton is also more sensitive to acid than some of the other gelatins we use, but it shouldn't be an issue with orange
+
+[4:13] juice because orange juice isn't that acidic. So I would just say weight longer. Or perhaps you might think of moving to a different product other than gelatin. So you could use a gel. I don't know why you want to use fish gelatin, whether it's because you're worried about whether it's because you don't eat red meat or whether it's because you're worried about maybe BSE in a beef gelatin,
+
+[4:32] BSE, bovine sponge of form encephalopathy for all of you people, although they've done research where they've taken, and I used to not eat gelatin actually for a while because I was a little paranoid way back in the day about
+
+[4:42] Mad Cow. That's what bovines, bunch form, encephalopathy is. Uh, it's or Jakobs Croitfeld, uh, new variant, whatever, BSE. So what I would do is, I mean, what they did, they did a study where they took a cow, they injected its brain with Mad Cow,
+
+[4:58] right? And then they turned it into gelatin, and then they were testing to see whether they could get any pre-ons, because it's a pre-on-based disease out of the gelatin, and they couldn't. trust that or don't trust that. As a case, maybe, because it was paid for by the gelatin people. But, um, the so anyway, so I don't know why you want to use fish gelatin specifically. If it's because of the red meat issue, you might want to switch away from fish gelatin and go to an entirely vegetable-based product, seaweed-based, in which case I would use a mixture of kappa
+
+[5:28] carraginen and locust bean gum, which is a commercially available gelatin replacer. It has the advantage of setting much faster. It has a texture fairly similar to gelatin. No, that doesn't melt in your mouth the same way gelatin
+
+[5:40] does because let's face it, nothing does. But if you're just making jellies, it should work for you. Um, uh, you can get that from uh, CP Kelco. But, you know, I don't know that there's a couple names in the supermarket that you can get that work. I think maybe some of the kosher gelatins are actually carragin-based. So you might want to move to that if you want to. Also, I was researching this and I found out something interesting I did not know. And that is people have made a microbial-based gelatin now. So there's now certain strains of yeast and bacteria that can produce gelatin. Now they're not commercially available yet, but this could open the door to a completely vegetarian, like actual straight up gelatin being produced down the road. So we'll all be looking forward to that, right, Nastasia? Okay. So we have a caller, caller, you are on the air. Hi, thanks for taking my call. I have a question about the perfect chocolate chip cookie. My perfect chocolate chip cookie is kind of on the thicker side. It'd be a little bit chewy. I know some people like thin and crispy, but, you know, I go for the thick and chewy. Right. And I was wondering if hydrocoloids could help me perfect the chocolate chip cookie that I'm looking for. All right, well, this is an excellent question. And 1st of all, I like the way you're phrasing the question and you say my perfect chocolate chick cookie. So one of my problems with a lot of recipes that people give is they'll say the perfect chocolate chip cookie, and there is no such thing as the perfect chocolate chip cookie. So you want it a little bit thicker. What problem are you having now? Like what, how, how is it that you're doing it now? How are they coming out? And then how do you hope hydrocolors will help you? I also like kind of a really buttery taste, so I think maybe I'm using a lot of butter and they come out thick, but they're not very
+
+[7:20] chewy. They have a rich buttery taste, but they're very soft. And, uh, I've never cooked with hydrocoloids and, you know, so I don't really have any experience with them, but I hear you talk about them a lot.
+
+[7:33] I was just wondering if maybe I should try that. Okay. Well, here's here's some pointers with it. The butter, I'm surprised that they still stay thick with a lot of butter unless you reduce the sugar content on
+
+[7:43] them because the butter should help the spread more. They should spread more with a higher butter content. But I could be wrong because it's been a while since I've read it. There a book out there that you can get online called Crackers and
+
+[7:56] Cookies, Tech Cracker and Cookie Technology, but it's been about 8 years since I've read it. So I'm a little behind in my reading, but let's let's go ahead with it. Now, there's, there's a group of people who, uh, they're feeling is it's possible to make the perfect X, Y, or Z, and chocolate chip cookie is usually one of them without using anything other than
+
+[8:14] the traditional ingredients. And those people are against using things like hydrocolloids in a chocolate chip cookie just because they say it's not necessary. These are the same people who say don't use anything fancy in your tempura batters because the top end Japanese chefs don't use them. Now, I don't necessarily believe that. I'm just mentioning that off the you know, off the top. Um, but it sounds like what you want is something that's going to reduce spread during, um, reduce spread during baking. Am I right? Keep it thicker. Right. Yeah, keep it thicker, not necessarily like a cakey texture. I've had some turnout where they're really thick, but they're kind of cakey and
+
+[8:49] I, that wasn't really what I was going for either. Right. Well, I would, I would try. Um, I mean, so for instance, off the top of my head, any sort of the, any sort of the uh, products that add viscosity to
+
+[9:02] the, to this stuff would increase, um, would increase, you know, decrease the
+
+[9:06] spread. The problem is, is that there's not much of a water phase in chocolate chip cookies, right? And so to use a hydrocolloid, to use a hydrocolloid accurately, you're going to need to have something that you can put into the water phase. So if you look at, if you look at basically scanning electron microscopy pictures of starch granules in cookie systems after they've been cooked, you'll see that a lot of the starch granules are still pretty much
+
+[9:34] unmessed with, and that's because there's not enough water present in the system, even at the high oven temperatures to really make them fully swell and break.
+
+[9:42] So you're basically going to need to find something that can cause a thickening action in, you know,
+
+[9:47] an extremely low water situation because basically, what do you have in there that's liquid, probably just the egg, right? Yeah. Right. So, um, I mean, one thing you could do, I mean,
+
+[9:58] this is the problem with hydrocoloids and cookies. Now I'm not saying it can't be done. But like you could, for instance, clarify the butter, add the 20% water back as butter with a
+
+[10:05] hydrocolloid in it, in which case I would use something like Xanthan gun, or perhaps something like methyl cellulose, right? Or, you know, it's going to be hard to hydrate a hydrocolloid into the egg, although you could, in which case I would use something like
+
+[10:18] Xanthan, which, you know, has what's called a yield point. So it basically, but it's not going to really affect the cookie when it's done because,
+
+[10:26] you know, you just won't taste it when you're chewing on the cookie, but it should, you know, decrease this spread a little bit. But, you know, the spread in cookies is something that has been studied quite, quite a lot. And so you can usually decrease the spread by adjusting the butter sugar ratio, right? Because both of those things as they heat are going to tend to increase spread. So increased sugar recipes, increase the spread and increased butter, I think, should probably increase the spread. Whereas increased flour decreases the spread, but increases cakiness, right? especially when combined with leaveners. So, um, is there a leavener in your recipe? right? There is, right? Yeah there is. Right. So if you, so aside from just using hydrocoloids, if you wanted to decrease cakiness, when you, when they do an increase flour, they probably also increase the
+
+[11:15] leaven or you could go the other way and decrease the leaven or a little bit, and that might help. I don't know. Um, you know, also adjusting oven temperature can adjust the spread as it goes, and the temperature of the batter as it goes in can adjust the spread somewhat. So you might want to go in with a very, very cold, a cold batter, like drop them real
+
+[11:31] cold, throw them in the oven, you know, and then they set it before they spread. But it should be possible. I don't think you're going to get that much of a result out of hydrocoloids unless they are, uh, unless they are being kind of
+
+[11:43] pre-functionalized. But I could be totally wrong about this because, you know, I've never tried it. But things like Zanfan, things, um, methocellos, I mentioned that one, right? Because methocellulose has the property that it gels when it gets hot. So if you can get the methocellulose to get into the egg white or the egg somehow, when it heats up,
+
+[12:00] it, the methocell will set and actually form a gel and prevent spread. But then when the cookie cools off again, the cookie, the methyl cell will go back to its normal non-geling form. So that, you know, that could that could be interesting. And it might actually be interesting. You can add that. You could probably add a little bit of extra water phase that the cookie doesn't call for because it's not going to increase the spread a little bit. It might make it might make it chewier. I'm not sure. I have not tested it. Yeah, that was my next question. Could I mix the hydrocolloid with a little bit of water pre-incorporating it into the batter and then see what that does. You can, but cookies are such low. I mean, except for cake style cookies, like, for instance, like a traditional New York black and white
+
+[12:42] cookie or things like that, that have, like, a lot of white, because a black and white cookie is essentially a cake that's made flat,
+
+[12:49] right? And so we all know what those cakey cookies are like. But in general, like a traditional cookie, like we're talking about, very low water formulation. You know what I mean? Basically just the water from the eggs and the roughly 20% by weight water that the butter is that you put into
+
+[13:04] it, you know? Now, again, it would be possible to do it. It would take a lot take a lot of dorking with, but it's a problem I actually haven't thought about, but it is very
+
+[13:15] interesting. And I'd appreciate it if you ran some tests or that you kind of got back to
+
+[13:21] us what the results were. Great, I'll do that. Thank you very much for your help. All right, no problem. Good luck. All right. What do you say, nostalgia? Yeah, one minute. We have, uh, nostalgia. This is why they call the ham. She's supposed to be the hammer on other people, but she ends up just basically... What? do you mean? No, Nastasia likes it just to be the hammer on me. instead of on instead of on like collars? Why not supposed to be a hammer on the collar? She's, look, she's supposed to be like, nostalgia supposed to be like my personnel hammer. Like someone comes, gives me the picture. I told him to slow down at in the beginning. And he slipped me off. This is an exaggeration. This is an exaggeration. I would like to say this is exaggeration. So next week, actually, will I be here on Tuesday? I'm gonna okay. So I'm going to, right after the radio show next week, I'm flying out to Florida, and it's the 1st time I'm extremely excited. I'm going to the North American food equipment manufacturers show in Orlando. I was going to have my wife and kids fly down so that we could do the whole Disney World thing, but my wife had a project come up so she can't do it, which is unfortunate because my kids have never been to Disney World. Anyway, that's aside the point. But not next week, but the week after, I will regale you all with stories of the latest, greatest developments in North American food equipment manufacturing,
+
+[14:33] which, listen, Nastasia's laughing because to her this sounds boring, but there's nothing I enjoy more than looking at new
+
+[14:39] equipment. Seriously, like walking around, and I usually go to the Natural Restaurant Association show with the NRA. Everyone's like that in RA. like, no, the other NRA in Chicago every year, and they have some equipment there, but this is apparently like the great, the great grandma of all equipment shows in the
+
+[14:54] US. So I'm going to go down and I'm going to report back on what I think the future of restaurant food equipment is going to
+
+[15:02] be, as according to the restaurant, so if I get to actually walk the show at all, because Niles and I are going down there to chill out basically for the unified
+
+[15:09] brands who make a piece of equipment that we use at a school called the Randall FX.
+
+[15:14] It's a pretty cool fridge. Anyway, so we're going down there. And so Nils and I have to do a dog and pony, like every hour on the hour for a couple of days, talking about the merits of accurate refrigeration. So anyway, I'm excited next week to come out and we'll give you the report when I get back. Right now we're going to go to our 1st commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues. How you feeling, brother? You're feeling good. Play so much, bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feeling, fella? Hey, jam. Sure, getting down. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high.
+
+[16:22] All right. I'm gonna do it again. He won't do it again, huh? Yeah, that's it. Gotta take you home.
+
+[16:34] Brother? Now I want everybody. Let bread blow up by 2 courses. And then I wanna wave you, let's go and do that within us now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. Get your James Horn on me. Welcome back to cooking issues, calling all of your cooking related questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. doesn't have to be cooking actually can be alcohol related. Yeah. Yeah, can be alcohol relating. Like making alcohol stuff. Well, making, drinking, like tips on drinking or making, making alcohol, making drinks with alcohol. Okay, we have a caller. collar. on the air. Hi, Dave, quick question. Sure. I noticed when you pour champagne into an empty glass, the effervescence is pretty quick and it, you know, it bubbles over if you don't pour carefully, but if you got another liquid in there,
+
+[17:26] like, say, like orange juice for a mimosa or something, you can pour it a lot faster. Is that like a lack of nucleation sites or is the carbonation getting diluted or? I think probably I think probably both. I mean, certain things that you pour into cause an instant foaming because they have
+
+[17:42] foam forming abilities. So for instance, like you'll notice if you squeeze a lime into a drink and then pour it with cells or you get that big scum of bubbles on the top of it, right? But you're not going to necessarily get the little bubbles. Actually, you will because they're going to nucleate off the thing. So the 1st problem you're going to have not problem. But the 1st issue you're going to deal with is like, what is the actual, what are the properties of the liquid you're pouring into? And are they going to increase foaming or not? Now, there's a difference between, like, foaming, which is the head that's going to form on the top and then actual bubbles that are
+
+[18:14] going to form in the liquid? So I think you're probably right that, um, that if you dilute something, you're going to have less bubbles coming out, because the amount of bubbles coming out are related to the actual percentage dissolves CO2 that are in
+
+[18:26] the, in the product, and because you've diluted it down, um, you're going to have less total CO2 per, you know, per gram.
+
+[18:34] So assuming that your orange juice is cold and everything, all of a sudden the amount of CO2 coming out is going to be a lot lower than if you poured in straight champagne,
+
+[18:42] right? So, I mean, there's that effect, and there's also something you mentioned when you pour it into a, you know, a new glass. New glasses tend to, I mean, this is not what you're talking about, but it's where I thought you were going to go, so I'll talk about it anyway, is, you know, there's a nucleation sites on glasses in the form of dust specs and little imperfections
+
+[19:00] in it. So actually, if you hyper clean, if you pour, like, you know, I forget what they're called, like, sodium dichromate cleaning solution, the stuff we used to use in Orgo, you know, to totally eat anything that's on the inside of the glass and dump it out, you'll get no, you'll get no bubbles.
+
+[19:13] And there's a, there's actually a book, you might be interested in about the, It's the science of champagne. It deals a lot with bubbles, and it's written by a gentleman who's a champagne scientist. I think his last name is Belloc. His 1st name might be Hilaire or something like that. Belloc. the science of champagne. It's not that expensive. It's a thin book, and it's written, you know, it's equation free, so you don't have to like beat your head against the wall to get through it. And it's a really interesting study of champagne and the physics of champagne and the physics of bubbles.
+
+[19:41] It's definitely a recommended read. I'm pretty sure it's still in print and you can get it through Amazon. I'll caution you, though. Everyone always lies about the amount of bubbles that are present in champagne. Like the champagne numbers are always extremely high, and I've never noticed that there actually is that much carbonation in a bottle of champagne as what they quote in their literature, which is interesting to
+
+[20:01] me. Whereas like American sparklers are often over carbonated, which is why they, I think you tend to lose some of the, you tend to lose some of like the fruit notes and they tend to seem less complex. And I think it's because they're over carbonated, which is why, by the way, this ties into your question, believe it or not, that I think that American sparklers are really good choices sometimes for, like a mimosa, things like a
+
+[20:21] mimosa, because they'll have more residual CO2 when you water down the, when you water down your orange juice. Okay. What do you think? Does this make any sense? Yes. All right. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Dave. All right, call again if you have any more questions, especially on champagne because we love it. Right, Nastasia? Yes, all right. Thank you for calling. Okay, so interesting tomorrow, tomorrow, right? Tomorrow, yeah, tomorrow we drop off the Martha Fuge. So I think as we talked about earlier, right, we talked about this before, right? I was on the Martha Stewart show. Yeah, I run through it again. On the Martha Stewart show, Martha Stewart's like, I want a centifuge, but I only want to pay $300. It's not how she talks. Anyway, so we found her in centrifuge for $300. And what was the problem with this one again? It had, this one was, oh, brushes, the brushes. Yeah, I needed to replace the brushes on the motor. So I replaced the brushes on the motor. thing works fine. I had to, um, so, yeah, works works great. In fact, it works better than mine. Works better than mine because mine, the refrigeration unit was broken. And I was secretly, I said to Nastasia, I was like, you know, Nastasia, I should give her the one where the refrigerator is broken.
+
+[21:24] She would have been on you. Well, no, no, no. You were like, come on, it's Martha. Give her the good one. What the heck's wrong with you, right? Pretty much. That's not how I talk, either. Well, yeah, you're here to defend your speech, but, you know, so anyway, so I'm sure we've all had this, right? Where you get 2 things, right? And you already have yours and you buy one for somebody else and you're like, 0 my god, it's better than mine and there's that moment where you want to switch it out. Has this not happened to you? Yeah, yeah, of course. Anyway, so we're giving her the good one, but it put a fire under my butt to go fix, fix mine. Um, so anyway, so I did fix mine, but it was a pain in the butt because to change out the board, the electronics board was like
+
+[22:00] a like a $1000 to change it. So I just bought, uh, you can go, you know, it used to be to buy a temperature controller online, like a PID temperature controller that worked, it would
+
+[22:09] cost, uh, you know, over $100, well over $100. Now they're so cheap. There's so many people doing DIY, I have to do it yourself. Temperature control stuff that you can buy a temperature controller out there, delivered like in 2 days for like 30 bucks, 30, 40 bucks. So I bought one, and I just put my own temperature control on my refrigeration unit, and now my refrigeration unit works fine. Thank you very much. So it turns out I've now fixed pretty much every part of a centerpiece you get. This could be your new job. Or if anyone has a centrifuge that needs to be fixed. Well, you know I was thinking about this. Here's what I here's what I was thinking. Oh, 1st of all, you know, Wiley now finally got a centerfuge. Wiley has a 3 liter centrifuge. Of course, his is new, fancy, fancy, 3 liter centrifusion. One of our interns, former intern, I guess, at least still working with us, Piper Christensen, who just got hired at WD. Congratulations, Piper. Uh, so, uh, he's running their centrifuge night and day, and they're coming up with some new interesting applications. But, you know, I've been a centrifuge evangelist for a long time now several years, probably, and I really think people should buy more centrifuges.
+
+[23:09] I really, really do. Um, you know, I did a bunch of research on it right now. I'm not recommending that a restaurant go out and, you know, buy a $100 centrifuge and have this giant thing sitting in there in their restaurant and like maybe it
+
+[23:21] works maybe it doesn't. And who knows what the lifetime of the centrifuge buckets are because I don't know if you guys know Centrifuge, by the way, for people who think, what the hell is this guy talking about? centerfoot. what, huh? If you're thinking that, what it is, is basically a machine that has a rotor that spins very quickly and
+
+[23:35] creates centripetal force and that, and that actually separates products based on their density. So we use it typically to separate oil from nuts, for instance, or to
+
+[23:45] clarified juices. And we can do it very fast with very high yields. We can also like do nut milks, things like that, get very, very high yields. I don't understand how blood came into play. It comes into play in a centrifuge. Well, they typically what they'll do is they'll fill the centrifuge tubes with blood. They'll spin it. They get the serum on the top and the red blood cells at the bottom and they're running tests and stuff like that. Yeah, so when you buy it, you centerfuge, you have to assume that it's had really evil, evil, evil stuff in it.
+
+[24:12] And so you have to completely, as I said, in Ken Kershenbaum, my
+
+[24:16] friend, at NYU, likes to quote me as bleach the rabies out of it. So you bleach the hell out of it, and then you pressure cook the buckets to do it. anyway. So this type of centrifuge, 3 liter centrifuge, you know, although there are perils to buying it
+
+[24:31] used, is extremely good. And so what you can do is, what you do is, you know, you buy it and fix it, but I think restaurants could afford to buy a new one. I looked at it online and you can get a very good quality centrifuge for about
+
+[24:47] $7,500 that does everything that ours does minus the refrigeration. Okay? And, um, and so, and that thing will, will pay for itself. If you make juices or you're doing things like that, the increase in yield off these expensive ingredients is going to pay for itself. I don't know why more people aren't getting it because it's not like
+
+[25:05] it's not some kind of a crazy presentation tool. like no one has to know you're doing it. just all of a sudden you have these amazing clear juices, like these amazing, you know, nut oils, everything. It's just such a great tool. Um, so what I was thinking is like, what if we started a, uh, what not started a business? But what if we said, hey, listen, you buy this centrifuge, we'll tell you which one to buy, and then we'll come in and train you how to use it. We'll show up, you know, you need like, you need like some enzymes. They don't cost that much, the enzymes, you need, like, you know, a bag of, you know, a bag of enzymes, and pretty much you're ready to rock and roll, right? That, maybe some of this, uh, Kaidasan. Well, we're doing one of the things and a scale, scale is like 20 bucks. So, you know, or, you know, not bad. In fact, our new intern, Brooke, we were getting a scale for Martha and it was all messed up. She cleaned that thing like it was brand freaking new. I was like, crap, now I don't want to give that to Martha either. I've never seen someone clean a scale that way. You would not believe people you would not believe this. I would, yeah, that scale was, that scale was like hospital quality when she was done with it. Did you say we had that? Yeah, we have a caller. Caller, you were on the air. Hi, Dave. Hi, how you doing? Doing good. This is Michael Matkin. How you doing? Doing great. Sent you a few email questions and now I got a chance to catch you live. All right, here we go. So what do you got for me? So I got a question about coconut milk. Delicious coconut milky meat. I love coconut milk. So I've made a lot of really bad Thai curries over the years, and I finally made a good one, and I don't really understand why. helping you can help me figure it out. So I always ignored the instructions to cook the coconut milk until it's separate. They never could really figure out why that was important. Uh, and my curries always turned out a little bit gelatinous. It's like I would reduce the milk somewhat, but not cook at all that all the way down till it's separated. Right. Um, and I would get this sort of gelatinous, unpleasant texture in them. And, you know, finally, I realized, hey, I'm not following that direction because,
+
+[26:54] you know, you know, how you follow a recipe and if you don't know why something's important, you skip it. Exactly. So, and then I, the other day, you know, I cooked the curry paste, I cooked the milk down
+
+[27:03] until it's separated, and then I added some more fresh coconut milk to bulk it up before I served it, and it came out great.
+
+[27:08] So, so what's going on there? What's that gelatinous texture about? And why does separating it help? That's extremely interesting. So I'm going to have to, so for those of you out there, presumably if you're cooking it till it breaks, you're making your own coconut milk? No. Okay. Right. So, um, you should, well, try try making your own, by the way. Have you ever you've made your own ever or no? never have. Oh my god. You have to try making your own coconut milk. It's amazing. It's like fresh coconut milk is a revelation. But here's, and this is how it goes, talks to what you're, what you're talking about, you know, fresh coconut milk, you make it like you would almost any other, you know, you grate the
+
+[27:45] coconut and then you, you know, blend it high speed with hot water and you squeeze it out. Anyway, and it's delicious. You'd love it. But fresh coconut milk. And this is why I'm asking, breaks extraordinarily quickly when you're cooking it. Whereas canned coconut milk, and I don't know why, takes a lot longer to break. You know what I mean? You can boil coconut milk for a good long time before she breaks on you. And Nastasia's like, why is it always a issue? Anyway. So you can boil it for a long time. So I don't, 1st of all, I don't know what it is about the canning process on coconut milk that makes it less sensitive to breaking than
+
+[28:20] when you make your own coconut milk. I also have never read the ingredient label on coconut milk to see whether they have some sort of process additive to
+
+[28:28] it when they when they do it. I'm not sure. But as to exactly what's going on in the milk when it breaks, as opposed to, for instance, you know, I can tell you pretty much what's going on in milk milk when it
+
+[28:39] breaks. You know what I mean? I can tell you pretty much, I mean, somewhat what's going on in soy milk when it
+
+[28:45] breaks, when you curdle it, rather. But I don't really know what's going on in coconut milk, but it's a very interesting question. And, uh, shoot, we don't have any of our Thai interns around, right? We could call up, uh, It's like a good question for WePop to hunt down David Thompson, see what he says about it. But it's an interesting question. But I wish I had an answer for you off the top of my head. I don't, but I am, I will research it further. You should do a secondary test. If you have the time. First of all, we all know, except for Nastasia, everyone in the world thinks that Thai food's delicious, right? So, I mean, like, I think this warrants a side by side. I think this definitely warrants a side by side test to see,
+
+[29:24] uh, do it, do it the same way side by side in a pot, and the only thing checking is the, um, is
+
+[29:29] the, is this breaking thing. Now, could it also be that it was much more reduced? And then when you had to add more to bulk it back, you were just adding more coconut solids and flavor or not. Well, you know, definitely, I mean, either way, I end up with, I'm putting in 3 cans of coconut milk more or less. So, you know, one way, I'm sort of dumping all the 3 cans in at once and letting it reduce a little bit. Um, the other way, I'm cooking one can down till it breaks and then adding the last 2 right at the end. And the tech, you know, so the total volume is pretty close to the same. Uh, but the one, you know, has a beautiful texture with a little bit of oil floating on
+
+[30:03] top and the other has this sort of horrible, almost like it was gels with a little bit of augur kind of, you know, fliminess. Right. That's very interesting. I'll definitely do more research. I was going to see McGee in a couple of weeks and I could talk to him about it because I know he's interested in these kinds of things, but I don't
+
+[30:19] think because he had to cancel the event I was going to do with him. But I'm definitely going to do more do more research. If you don't hear anything from me on it in a month within a month or so on the radio, it means that it slipped my mind and then you should
+
+[30:33] repester us via email. And but in the meantime, I encourage you to run some more tests. And by the way, things do slip my mind all the time. But I am interested. So, but we should we should definitely work on it. So run some tests if you can and get back to us. If you get some results and if not, we'll get back to you, all right? Okay, sounds good. All right, talk to you soon. Okay, take care. Just go to a break. Okay, we're going to our 2nd commercial break, says Nastasia the Hammer. Call in all your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. You feel good. With so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Now, call your name. people to know you're in, yeah. How you feeling, fella? Yeah, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. Gotta take your high.
+
+[31:46] All right. I'm gonna do it again. He wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's doing that. Got to take you home. Bam! Brother? Now I want everybody. Let's bread floors by 2 courses. Coming back at you with cooking issues. Still time to call in your questions, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, we're sitting in front of a ZZ Top album, an old ZZ Top album, TV
+
+[32:19] dinners, which has like the old school like Swanson style TV dinner on it. So look up the picture of the ZZ Tops. Oh, is that Jack Jack's hanging in front of me. Gorgeous, gorgeous picture of some really poor quality fried chicken, corn, some awful form of brown biscuit, and some horrific mashed potato that's clearly been piped out of a tube.
+
+[32:36] Wow. Anyway, so grooving on it. Love the ZZ top. Anyway. So, uh, given a, a shout out to uh, Andy Malka, who uh, called in a little while ago with a venison question. or I don't know if it was an email. And then, in fact, cooked the venison with he built his own immersion circulator, which we love DIY people and love DIY projects, although we also love that you go to Philip Preston and buy his
+
+[32:58] circulators. But so Andy Malka, you can look him up on Facebook. He posted some pictures and looked at him and Andy, they look pretty dang good. His venison looks pretty good, although you didn't say in the Facebook thing, how it tasted. You just have a picture of it. So I'm hoping it tasted as good as it looked. All right. So I want to talk a little bit about our fundraiser that we're going to do on March
+
+[33:19] the 27th, 3 days before my 40th birthday, by the way. Oh, my God. Yeah, 3 days before my 40th birthday. We're doing a fundraiser for the museum of food and drink, which is a, you know, a museum idea. I started, you know, well over 5 years ago, but then kind of put on the back burner when I took the
+
+[33:34] job at the French culinary because I haven't had time. But the idea is that we want to create a museum, you know, of not right away. I mean, we're not, you know, we're not, you know, well, grandiose, but not in that way. Start a museum on the order of, you know, like the Natural History Museum, food, right? Start it small. And, you know, Patrick here at Heritage Heritage Foods Heritage Radio, we heard about this and we're going to restart it. our 1st fundraiser, and it's a fundraiser to get, you know, some money to hire someone to start the administrative process and to actually get the ball
+
+[34:04] rolling, to get the actual thing rolling. And the fundraiser is looking pretty awesome. So it's on March 27th at Del Posto. Sunday in the afternoon. It's, you know, what's what, how much it going to cost? 250. That's not the point. The point is, right, 200 people, $250, museum of food. Anyway, so but check out the check out the group of people that so far have agreed to participate, right? So we have Audrey Saunders from Pegu Club is going to be doing drinks and everyone's going to have a theme. So I don't have a theme for Audrey yet. What food history theme. Something that relates to the museum. The museum, which so that either means personalized. Yeah, technology of food, history of food, culture of food, right? And it's personalized to the person. So I haven't figured out what I want to do for Audrey, but she's in Thomas Waffen, Death and Co is in. Maybe since Death in Co, by the way, which is a fantastic bar here in New York. Death and Co is the name of an artist who used to draw paintings to guide people to speakeasies back during the
+
+[34:55] prohibition. So maybe they want to do something prohibition-based. Oh, cool, yeah. Yeah, maybe to play on the Death and Co. All right? Then during the cocktail hour, uh, Cesare Casella from uh,
+
+[35:05] Cellar Maria Rosi. And he used to be the sultan of beans. What is he now? No, the Emperor of Beans, and now he's a Sultan of Salumi. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So he's going to be bringing some salumi. I know how we're going to theme it up. He's gonna bring Salumi no matter what. No matter what. It's going to be delicious salumi, but Chez Ray's going to bring some of it. How the hell are we going to paste the theme on top of that? Whatever. He's Cesare. He's going to have rosemary everywhere. Rosemary's going to be growing out of his ear, sticking out of his hair in his pocket. you know, I love Ches Reyes. Okay. And so then on the savory side, we got because it's at Del Posto. So Mark Ladner's going to be there. I'm giving him Roman, right? So he's going to do Roman. So he's busting out his old his Apicius because he's got the Apicius books to do Roman cuisine. But what he doesn't have, this sounds like the guy at the end of Wizard of Oz. But what you don't have is that, no, is there's a fish sauce, and I think I've mentioned this on the air before, called
+
+[35:51] Ishiri that comes out of Japan that's made from squid guts. They have one made from, I believe, mackerel guts, the one I have is squid guts. And what's cool about it is that it's a dead ringer for the actual ancient Roman fish sauce, the high-end fish
+
+[36:06] sauce that was around the time that Apicius is coming out that was made entirely out of fish guts, right? And this is the Garam, Sosharam, this like high-end Garam. And I had an opportunity to taste something that was made by Sally Granger, who's an apicious expert, Roman expert, and is probably finished at this point, but was working on her PhD in Roman fish sauces.
+
+[36:25] So she gave me some of hers to taste. It was 3 years old, 2 or 3 years old. And I was like, bang, this stuff tastes like a sheri, which is a very, it's a fish sauce, but it doesn't taste anything like a fish sauce. It tastes like fish sauce mixed with canned meat, which it's really cool stuff. So anyway, I'm going to give Mark some of this stuff because it's the closest thing anyone's ever tasted to ancient Roman fish sauce that you can actually go out and
+
+[36:46] purchase. And there's a bunch of isherias. This one in particular that tastes really good. It comes from the north of Japan, from, where is it from, from Ishikawa or something? don't know. All right. So then we got Dave Chang. Dave Chang, I'm either going to let we're either going to put him with country ham because he and I share this as a bond country ham. We both love country ham. So it's either going to be some sort of country ham theme, which fits into the museum. In fact, the 1st exhibit the museum did was an exhibit on country ham that I put together, you know, 6 years ago now, where we tasted a bunch of American hams and we ate
+
+[37:15] them, basically in the style of prosciutto, but don't call American ham prosciutto. It its own product. Please, please don't call it prosciutto. Uh, anyway, uh, or I was thinking kind of a, like a pre-red pepper Korean dish. So going back to what Korean food might have been like, no, it might have been
+
+[37:33] like what it was like before the introduction of all of the ingredients that came from North and South America. So we're talking, no peppers, which means no spicy peppers of any kind, you know, tomato, any of that stuff. none of that. So I thought that might be interesting. Can you tell them the joke one that you made for him? Well, I was saying, you know, for those of you, Dave Chang, who's a good friend of mine, you know, you know, extremely well-known
+
+[37:55] chef, and famous for having a, you know, a little bit of a temper, you know, Dave's got a little bit of a
+
+[38:01] temper. So, you know, like when he goes ballistic on people in the kitchen. They say they've been Chang banged, et cetera. you know, so well known for his temper. So I was saying, well, he could he could recreate the dinner that Vlad Tepish, the impaler, gave to this group of people that he then locked into a barn and lit the barn on fire and let them all burn to
+
+[38:18] death. But I was kidding and Nastasia actually emailed that to him and he was like, hell yeah, I'll do that. You know, some sort of like Romanian impaler theme dish. Anyway, we got Wiley Dufrayne. My brother-in-law from WD 50 is going to come in and do something, but I don't know what we're going to give him yet as his theme because I don't want to make him just, you know, oh,
+
+[38:36] you're going to do technology. or why the Dufray. It's going to be technology, right? We got to come with something and eggs is easy because it's famously his favorite thing is eggs, but everyone does that with him. So I need to give a little more thought to what, and by the way, this is an invitation to give us themes for the
+
+[38:51] museum based. Uh, we have uh, Nils Norin, right? Yes. Yeah. Or, you know, Nils Norn. He's going to come in and I don't know, should we just do Swedish for him? I don't know. No? I don't know. No? No. Who else who else has agreed? Carlo has agreed. From Roberta? Yeah, great. what kind of theme should we give him? So it's going to be some sort of farm to table thing, right? Hipster? Hip. Wow. You like that? You like that? Calling VS and someone in their own place. Like, wow, he can come out of the kitchen right now and beat us over the head with a lead pipe. What the hell are you doing? So what are we going to do? We're going to do, like, farm a table maybe? Yeah, yeah. Farm a table? don't know. People, give us some suggestions, for Christ's sakes. Okay. Then did Johnny agree yet? Johnny Azini? Johnny Azini, I think he's I'm not sure. I think he might have agreed. don't know. know what theme I'm going to give him. Uh, uh, Cinatosi from uh, from Milk Bar. I was thinking cereal. Yeah, maybe. I mean, if she wants to. I mean, she's well known for making kind of cereal milk ice creams and things like that. So if she wants to do it, we'll do, she's doing a dessert. And then Brooks from Del Posto is also going to do it. And I'm thinking giving him Italian Jewish because, you know, my family comes from Italian, uh, ex-Jews who are expelled from, uh, uh, X Jews who
+
+[40:08] are expelled from, uh, what am I thinking? during the Inquisition, had to go to Italy, they then converted and became land butchers. That the Adonisio family. That's my whole stepfather's family. So, and there's a lot of really interesting kind of Italian desserts of Jewish ancestry. So maybe that, maybe something else. I invite you guys to call in and give us your, give us your feedback on that on what, on what you think would be good. Okay. Now, uh, Couple things. One, I was realized recently that I've taken on some projects that I probably should not have taken on.
+
+[40:43] So I'm going to tell you the story about projects that you take that are
+
+[40:47] mistakes for you to do. So this person came to us and they're saying, hey, listen, listen. Listen, we're launching, we're launching this thing and we need to come up with a drink and we want a drink that goes, starts out cloudy, and then turns clear. So I gave it some thought, right? And I was like, you know, it's very difficult. It's very easy to make a drink that starts out clear and then goes cloudy. That's like the Uzio Uzo effect. So you have something in high alcohol, like an oil that's dissolved in a high alcohol system. You add liquid water to it. And as you add water to it, all of a sudden the oil isn't soluble and it basically goes into a suspension, but it does it in such fine droplets that it turns cloudy,
+
+[41:24] right? And so that's ouzo, pastice, all of these liquors that you add water to and they turn cloudy. But that's exactly the opposite of the message that these guys want to portray, right? Like, hey, look, we took the, it's an information company. Hey, look, we took something that was clear and we obfuscated it. It made it cloudy, right? So they don't want, they don't want that. So that was out. So then I was trying to do all these experiments of taking something cloudy, a
+
+[41:47] suspension, and then altering its solubility and making it go clear again. So we tested a methocell from hot to cold, having to go, it didn't work. We then used, and I don't want to hear anything about it. We use milk of magnesia, right? Which is a suspension, and then we increase the acidity. So it went from cloudy to clear, and we got it to work, but it didn't taste so fantastic, right? And it also the effect wasn't as dramatic as we wanted. We wanted milk white to water clear. And I could get, like, somewhat turbid to somewhat less turbid. Like that's where that's where we were. So then, you know, and the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm like, I really shouldn't get into this because, you know, I really don't like presentation tricks. Anyway, I really like to focus on stuff that makes things taste better, but this person's asking
+
+[42:32] me and it's kind of an interesting challenge, but it's, you know, it's just not my normal line of work. Like, I really don't like problems that are just presentation based. So then, uh, you know, I tell her the problems we're having with the cloudy, the cloudy to clear. And she comes back and she's like, well, also, it could be blue because our logos blue in them, but of course it's freaking blue. Like the least natural color on earth, blue, right? So I'm like, all right, I'll work on it. And I order some blue corn in, and I'm thinking so much that I'm going to be able to do this with the blue corn that we ordered,
+
+[43:00] right? I ordered a £50 sack of blue corn. I'm so confident that I could do it, right? Because I figured that in Peru, they have purple corn, chichamarata, but they have blue corn I can get. It's actually blue and I'm going to be able to make a blue corn syrup with it, right? So I call her back, stupid. Don't ever do this. I called her back and I said, okay, I can do it. So now I'm locked. Now I'm locked into doing this. So basically I say that I'm going to put blue corn syrup. I gonna put, basically, I'm gonna make a, you know, a tonic style drink that goes on top of it. We're going to carbonate. It's gonna mix, it's gonna be blue. We gonna use liquid nitrogen, and chill the glasses. going to be fantastic, right? Sounds fantastic, right? No, no. Blue corn comes in, it's freaking purple, right? It's freaking purple. There is no real blue stuff. Now, then, you know, so you go do some research, and I should have known I couldn't actually get it blue, because all of the blues that we're dealing with are based on a group of dyes, you know,
+
+[43:54] a group of chemicals called anthocyanins, right? And these things are, they're pH dependent, and that's the problem. And all these drinks are fundamentally acidic. And so all of these anthisyanins go red in acidic and they go green
+
+[44:06] and ultra basic and can be made to be blue in the right pH range, but that pH range, that basic pH
+
+[44:11] range is not delicious, right? Is not delicious. So we're using an egg white drink with no acid and blue corn juice and we got it kind of blue, tasted. I mean, how bad did that taste and smell? Really bad. And the smell is, well, 1st of all, it's very precisely a specific smell that I cannot describe on
+
+[44:31] air. It's, okay? vile. But it's in Russian, so no one would know. Yeah, right. that's your that's your mom's theory. Vile, vile, awful vile stuff, right? So anyway, so then we tried to nixtimalize the corn because that's going to add some basicity and make it more blue. And by the way, nixtamalized blue corn is A delicious for tortillas, and which you know, if you've had a blue corn tortilla, and B looks fantastic, but we couldn't make a good drink out of it.
+
+[44:57] All the drinks look terrible. And then we, you know, you start going crazy and you're like, look, here's what I can't do. I can't use blue curacao. Uh, with, and because I've, I insult, not insulted, but basically insulted a famous Japanese bartender for using
+
+[45:10] blue curse out because, uh, not because of the blue food coloring, interestingly, but because the quality of the
+
+[45:16] curse out is terrible, right? And so basically using like a small amount of a very low quality ingredient to add just a color effect. And I, you know, I said, why don't you just use food coloring, he's like, well, that would be too easy. like, well, and then someone else asked, I think I said this before, like, why are you adding, why are you adding an ingredient that tastes bad? And he's like, well, I'm only adding a little bit of an ingredient that tastes bad. It's not really acceptable, right? So now I'm... Now, karma came back to bite you. Oh, wow, he's over in the knee. So basically, so yeah, so I, yeah, karma came back to bite me and now I'm going to have to use blue food coloring. I think, I don't know, someone help me here. This is like, this is like the worst nightmare in my world. I'm doing a presentation trick, right? Which is an awful idea. Uh, a presentation trick alone, and I'm reduced to using blue food coloring. There's a fantastic, beautiful blue flower out of Thailand that's unavailable, but you know what happens when you add acid to it? Turns red. You know why? Because it's freaking anthocyan and that's making it go. You know what I mean? There's just no real way around this problem. I really don't. I don't know what I'm going to do, but it is a lesson. Do not say yes unless you know you can deliver. And this has been cooking issues come back at you next week. cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Nine times out of 10, when someone is taking the time to break away and do their own thing, it's because they either have a specific point of view or a specific passion that really sort of speaks to maybe not a mass audience, but the customers that I have and the customers that
+
+[0:15] barter house tries the culture and cultivate, I think are those type of people who want that story and feel like if they take an allocation of an 80 case made
+
+[0:27] wine, that they've got something special. And it's something that only they have or maybe one other person has. So that's kind of what we specialize in and, you know, it may not be business savvy to the nth degree, like we're not making
+
+[0:38] 100,000 cases of Pinot Grigio and, you know, flogging them all over New York, but the customers that get wine from us are kind of
+
+[0:47] believing the same stuff we do, which is supporting these small farms, supporting these young winemakers who have a passion for doing it.
+
+[0:54] And we supply them with a market. And we allow them to get their product out there to otherwise an untapped group of people.
+
+[1:09] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez joins us via telephone from sunny Florida, where she's driving around in an RV with Piper and Grace, 2 of our former interns who are spreading the cooking issues love down there in the
+
+[1:34] sunny state. Are you there, Nastasia? Yeah, I'm here. Nice, nice. Call in all of your questions, cooking related otherwise, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Um, a little note on the barter house, the sponsor for today. They are our wine sponsors for the Museum of Food and Drink. Fundraiser coming up in about a month and a half and listeners to the show might remember that we'd sample some of their wine. Booza to not base wine on the show a couple months back and we enjoyed it, right, Nastasia? Yes we did. Yeah, especially with a name like Booza. Booza. All right. Wait, Dave, how can people get tickets to the museum? event. I don't know. How do they? Why don't you tell me? Well, first, someone needs to make an invite. What you're hearing here is Nastasia insulting me on the radio internet, so I haven't finished the invite yet. Yeah, call me out as a, yeah. Anyway, very soon you'll be able to sign on and get tickets to the event and taste some museum themed food by the likes of Mark
+
+[2:39] Ladner, Wiley Dufrayne, Dave Chang. Who else we got? Give us a whole list, Nastasia. No, Norin, Carlo from Roberta's, um, Brooks from Del Posto, Christina
+
+[2:51] Tozi, et cetera. And a host of amazing bartenders, like we have Audrey Saunders. We have Thomas Waugh from Death and Co. Who else we have? We have Simon Ford from Prino Ricard. Who else we got? We got more people. We're thinking about the old degras. There's a lot of people. It's going to be good. Let me just put it this way. We beat all of our friends over the head with sticks and they're going to come in and make some delicious products. So we hope you we hope you come and the date on that is going to be Sunday, March 27th. It's going to be in the afternoon, so we're going to get your drink on early in the day for a very
+
+[3:25] good cause. Okay. It is an invite. What? Oh, come on, come on. People, people, please. Is it all right? She calls me out once, twice. You need to call me out twice. All right, go on, Dave. Go on with the show. All right, how was the drink that you guys made in Nastasia? viewers from our listeners from last week. We'll remember that I had to basically become a hypocrite and sell my soul to the devil and create a blue drink with blue food
+
+[3:47] coloring. How did it come out? It wasn't your best. It was good. People enjoyed it. Yeah? People enjoy it. Yes. Very good, very good. All right. So, uh, Dorothy from Heath Glen Organic Farm and Kitchen, I believe in Minnesota, although I don't know, writes in and said, oh, it
+
+[4:04] says here in Minnesota. I'm a preserve maker in Minnesota and I've been working with oils and spices, trying to infuse aroma into the jams and jellies upon completion. Of course, the aroma of the fruit and spices and oils is wonderful as they are warm and cooking, but it is mostly lost when cooled and gelled. I've tried infusing the jams at different stages of cooking and have pounded woody herbs to release oils, use commercial aromatic oils,
+
+[4:22] et cetera. Most of the Roman is lost after they've come to room temperature, however. Any comments or suggestions. Well, uh, couple of things. We have to figure out whether you're losing the aroma because, one, the aroma is flashing off into the air. I doubt that's the case because you're cooking and probably sealing
+
+[4:41] it to can it, I would presume. So I wouldn't think they're flashing off. I also wouldn't think they're necessarily being destroyed by the heat during the process of making the jams or jellies. I would guess the 2 main culprits are, as it gels, more of the aroma is locked
+
+[5:01] in. And so you're losing some simply based on gel strength. And the 2nd thing I'm thinking is that these aromas probably are a lot less volatile at room temperature. So what I would do, since the pectin is basically, you know, it'll melt, but it's not going to totally
+
+[5:15] release when you heat it, I would say heat it and see whether the aroma comes back. It could just be a temperature phenomenon where you just need to add more of these aromas because they're going to be
+
+[5:24] consumed colder, either room temperature or cold out of the fridge. So I would think it's probably one of those 2 things. Either they, aromas themselves are being locked up in the pectin network, as the gels are being, uh, uh, you know, as it's gelling or 2 it's just a temperature related phenomenon. The temperature related phenomenon, you could actually check quite easily, just by making something and not adding a sufficient acid or sugar content for the product to gel and just adding it, you know, for the
+
+[5:51] aroma, waiting for it to cool, but not gel, and see whether or not the aroma is still there. That'd be a good 1st test. But get back to us with more details about the procedure and everything like that. And we'll try to work on it. I was hoping to have Harold McGee call in today, but he
+
+[6:08] can't, unfortunately, that would have been a great question for him. That's right up Harold's Alley, right? Stazi? Yeah, that is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and another follow-up, I believe, on last week's show, someone called
+
+[6:18] in, and their question was, they wanted to make cookies, but they didn't want them. They wanted them relatively thick without spreading out too much, but they didn't want them to become cakey. And I had, and they asked whether they could use hydrocolloids. I had a couple of half baked suggestions. Then last week, we spoke to Christina Tozi from
+
+[6:37] Milk Bar, who's also doing a dessert at the museum event, by the way. And so Tozi and I were talking, and she actually says that you can add Xanthan gum, which you can buy at Whole
+
+[6:49] Foods. You can just go into Whole Foods and buy it, say, whatever his name is, not Red Rover, like Bob Red Mill, something like that,
+
+[6:55] bag of Xanthan Gum, and add some, I don't know, percentages. I would add probably on the order of a half a percent by weight of the flower basis or something like this, I don't know. And she said, actually, it does help limit spread. But the most interesting thing she said was try using high protein flour in your cookies, bread
+
+[7:16] flour or similar. And basically she said, look, it will stop this. It will stop the spread and keep it thicker, but as long as you don't increase the leaveners. It's not going to make it cakey. And because there's so much fat in the cookie recipe, butter. In the cookie recipe, you're not going to get significant gluten formation, even though you're using a high protein flour. So it's not going to make it, uh, chewy in a bad sense in a proteiny way, but will limit spread, and it's an easy way without changing a lot of your
+
+[7:43] formulation. Anyway, so I thought that was interesting and a good follow-up. I can at least pretend like we follow up on some of this stuff, right, Nastasia? That's right. Yeah. Okay. Joseph writes in. and says, I've been listening to your show for a long time, and I love it. Well, thank you, Joseph. And he has a question regarding ISI or EC. Nastasha, what's the current thing they liked? They like ISR? EC? All right. So EC, they're the good folks from Austria that make seltzer makers, the twist and
+
+[8:12] sparkle, you know, seltzer making machine, they make whipped cream, chargers, et cetera,
+
+[8:18] et cetera, whipped cream, siphons. And we use it a lot to do rapid infusions using
+
+[8:24] nitrous, and you can look on www.cookingissues.com for more on that.
+
+[8:28] But Joseph wants to know he's interested in the Thermo Whipper, so he can create hot or cold foams, and was wondering what my recommendations are. Okay. So the thermal whip whippers are different from the normal EC whippers, and they're basically just whipped cream makers, and the thermal whip is insulated like a thermos. All right? Now, the good thing about the thermal whip is if you fill the thermal whip with hot water, really hot water, and then dump it out, and then put a hot product in to do a foam, it stays hot for a long time.
+
+[9:01] Similarly, if you want something cold, if you put ice water into the thermal whip and chill out the inside and then dump it out and put a cold product in, it stays cold for a long time.
+
+[9:11] So it acts like a thermos and like a cream whipper to do sauces, creams, or if you want to keep whipped cream out on the counter for a long time in a coffee shop scenario, something like this, it's going to keep the quality high because
+
+[9:24] that temperature is not going to change too much, right? Now, the downside of the thermal whibber is, is that even though it looks relatively, it holds a relatively small amount of product, right? Because there's so much space for the insulation around. It's also very expensive compared to a normal cream whipper. So you're dealing with a lot more money for a smaller volume of product that you can put in the
+
+[9:45] whipper at any one time. So, in fact, it looks like a one liter whipper, but it actually has the capacity of a half liter whipper.
+
+[9:52] Now, I mean, and that's another foreigner against. I just telling you like what the what the reality is of it. Now, the other thing about it is, is that if you are working in a kitchen, right?
+
+[10:03] So you could take one that's not a thermal whip, and you could either store it in the fridge or you could store it in a hot water bath to keep it hot for service.
+
+[10:12] Now it's much more convenient, right? To be able to just put a hot thing and have it stay hot or a cold thing and have it stay cold, but you're going to be paying for that luxury by,
+
+[10:21] you know, with reduced capacity, which actually isn't bad if you're only making a small
+
+[10:26] amount. You don't want to put a small amount of stuff into a big whipper. So it can actually help if you're dealing with small quantities. But you're going to have a smaller quantity and a higher cost. Now, it's just something you have to weigh out. There's nothing that there's nothing that the thermal whip will do for you that the other ones can't do. They just make it easier to maintain temperature. All right, Joseph, so I hope that answers your question, help you decide which one you want to buy. Of course, we the uh, cooking issues, fans of the uh, of the EC folks, right, Nastasia? Yes. Yes, yes, yes, I thought. By the way, we still can get calls, even though you're on the phone with us, right? Yeah, don't worry would never block that. Oh my god, I would never block that. like that. Like we have so many people pounding on our doors with calls. But let me tell you, since we're about to go to our 1st commercial break. I would like to hear some callers at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[11:26] How you feel, brother? You feel good? It's so much bone, brother. How you feel, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in here. How you feel, fellas? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. Look him! We're gonna have a punk, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. Welcome back to cooking issues, calling all of your questions, too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. I'm here for another half hour or so. And of course, Nastache is hanging out in Florida, driving an RV up and down the coast. So she had to stop the RV so that she could call in. How's the driving going, Nastasia? We actually just picked it up and I'm in the RV shop. You're actually in the shop? I'm in the shop. So you're staring at the RV? Is it a sweet ride? Yeah, it's pretty sweet. What does he get like half a mile to the gallon? What does that thing get? About that. Yeah. Yeah, and you're packing how many people into that? Five. Five people into an RV? Awesome. So is are Piper and Grace giving you the giving you the hairy squint to get the hell out off the radio? No, no. I'm the one who's been pushing everyone to go, go, go. So I made them all go get food and gas. That sounds like you. why you're the hammer. Okay. We had someone call in, actually, with some write-in, rather, with some comments on our sponsors and my relative, either enthusiasm or lack thereof for them. And so I thought I'd share some feelings. And, you know, maybe make an apology to one. But a while back, we have a sponsor. I think they're still a sponsor, 360 cookware. They don't have me read that one anymore. But basically it's a line of cookware that claims to use a steam technology to enhance the speed at which food is
+
+[13:28] cooked, and also, I don't know, lock in nutrients or something like that. And I was told that I was kind of rude and insulting to them on the air. In fact, Nastasia told me that afterwards, and then I kind of tried to make up for it the week after. But I just want to say a little bit about what happened with that. Here's the deal, right? My whole life is based around food and food equipment and things like that. And so I always take with a huge grain of salt, any sort of claim made by any sort of
+
+[13:53] corporation, anything can do anything outside of my realm of normal experience. And the problem isn't that, the problem is basically is that I read the, I read the sponsorship thing without actually ever having evaluated
+
+[14:07] the equipment. And so it's hard for, it's hard for someone like me to straight read something that somebody claims is true, have it come out of my mouth without me being able to
+
+[14:18] to verify or know. And I'm also inherently skeptical of any claims, right? So, you know, it seems that, and that's probably why they don't have me read these things anymore. But, but, but, it doesn't, it doesn't, like, reflect on anything. I know about that company. It reflects on my lack of knowledge and it's just it's hard for me sometimes if I get caught off guard and I don't have the time or the resources to do the proper
+
+[14:44] research. It's hard for me to say something either good or bad and so it can come off as snarky. So I apologize. But that same reader, um, I heard, uh, we have a sponsor here, Sam Edwards. And actually, with Sam Edwards, our sponsor. Barterhouse was our sponsor today, Sam Edwards, from S.
+
+[15:02] Wallace, Edward, Edwards, and Son Ham. you know, I've known him for a long time. He makes delicious hand products, and this reader actually remembered that, and went back and tried the actual ham, the Suriano ham, that was being sold at Murray's Cheese on his way through Grand Central, and indeed thought it was a delicious ham.
+
+[15:19] So people, I do not steer you wrong. Also, I wish it wasn't called Suriano Ham. I wish it was just called Delicious Virginia Ham from the S. Wallace Edwards and Company, but that's another story that I've already gone through. Right, Nastasia? Yeah? That is right, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so and seriously, I think that's why they don't have me read these things anymore. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I think that's what Dave... I think that's it. Yeah. I'm not a bad. a bad guy. It's just if you catch me when I'm not, you know, when I don't know what's
+
+[15:48] going to go on. It's just, you know, I never know even I don't know what I'm going to say, you know? Anyway. Okay. So we had a question about the Martha Centerfuse story that we talked about Martha. Martha Stewart centerfuge story. It's not like, it's not like Oprah, where you, you know, if you say Martha and you're talking, people know what you're talking about, then obviously you can just say Martha, but, you know, there are a bunch of Marthas in the world, whereas there's only one Oprah. Anyway, I like the Martha Stewart Center a few story. And by the way, Martha Stewart last week canceled on us because of inclement weather. And so Martha Stewart's centrifuge is still chilling at the at the French
+
+[16:23] culinary Institute is being moved from hallway to hallway because it has no has no home. So do you know when we're scheduled to do that again, Nastasia? She hasn't gotten back to me. And they sent her the videos of the coconut and carrot. yeah One centrifuge, centrifuge for sale, right? It's like, like, they all, like, we have this centerpiece floating around. Anyway, uh, so, uh, uh, he liked the story and he'd like to see, he sent us an eBay link to another
+
+[16:49] centrifuge asking whether we could fix it up and give it to Oprah and it was hilarious. I went to the centerfuge link and it's an old Clay Adams junior centrifuge. And the most hilarious part about it is that, you know, for those of us who enjoy a good-natured ribbing of our Canadian
+
+[17:06] northern neighbors, but it meets all Canadian Engineering Standards Association, Lawrence. Anyway, but what it basically is, is a motor with 2 test tubes that it swings around in the air, like swinging the test tubes around, you know, in the air with no kind
+
+[17:22] of, with no kind of covering. It was a whopping on eBay, 1599, which is preposterous for centrifuge of that type. I mean ridiculous. I mean, because it's unusable, basically. It's completely completely dangerous. They still actually make manual centrifuges that are completely open like
+
+[17:37] that, and they come either 2 or 4 test tubes, and they have a crank on them. And I've considered buying them several times. Kent Kirschenbaum, our buddy from NYU, actually enjoys these, just because they
+
+[17:46] make like, you know, an awesome kind of like helicopter noise and they they look incredibly dangerous, which I assume they are, but they're currently only used really for petroleum and oil analysis because you could take them out in the middle of nowhere and spin samples down to check, you know, I guess, oil levels and there's a certain, you know, in a particular sample or you
+
+[18:06] can or solids levels and dirt samples. But unfortunately, unfortunately, and I believe Paul sent us that one. Unfortunately, they don't achieve G levels high enough for us to use them for juice clarification. of, you know, in the videos that I've shot of the inside of our centrifuge that I have yet to post because I'm a
+
+[18:24] jerk. 2000 G's is about the minimum where the stuff starts really clarifying at an appreciable rate, but even at
+
+[18:32] that, at that thing at 2000 G's, it looks like it's clarifying, but it doesn't form a pellet in the bottom of the centrifuge buckets that's strong enough to be able to really decant it properly
+
+[18:42] without, without like becoming hazy, resuspending some of the crap. So really, you want like 3 to 4000 G's, which unfortunately these guys won't do. I think they'll do just under about a 1000 G's. And the other problem is, is that 450 milliliter test tubes isn't really enough to
+
+[18:56] make, you know, fruit juice for your, even, even too close buddies, much less 200 close buddies. And so, you know, although we've considered buying one for demonstration purposes, I don't think I would be, although,
+
+[19:10] you know, you don't know. don't know what Oprah wants to do with the centrifugive. Listen, if Oprah wants us to fix up that centrifuge, We'll do it. even make it safe, right? We'll build a box around it. You know, we'll shine it all up. I'll get our intern, Brooke, who's the master cleaner, and she'll make that thing look better than it was new. It'll look like, I don't know. Anyway, it's perfect. But if you really want a dangerous old centrifuge, Paul. Man, I suggest that you go for the Sorval, or as they were known before they change their name to Sorval, the serve
+
+[19:35] all, SS1, super speed, aluminum centrifuge, which is basically just an 8 position, uh, uh, you know, 50
+
+[19:43] mil rotor, uh, aluminum rotor, like from the 50s. It looks like a jetson thing on a motor on a stand. And there is little that has scared me more in my food cooking life than firing up the Sorvall
+
+[19:57] SS1 Danger Fuge and having that thing going at full speed in a kitchen. Nastasia, did we ever throw that away or did we save it for sentimental reasons? gave it to an intern. Really? Who? Piper? Yeah. I don't remember who took it, but someone took it. You know, we had to give it away because my inherent problem is, is that if I own it, I will be tempted to run it for some reason or another, right? It's just a terrible, terrible idea, an awesome, awesome paperweight and a terrible, terrible idea to use. All right. So, uh, Ken uh, Ingber uh, sent us some
+
+[20:32] questions, and one of them's on ultra pasteurization milk and uh, it's cheese making properties and its filmmaking uh, properties. And so he recently was working on making mozzarella cheese from scratch, although, you know, most people, when they're making mozzarella, especially if you haven't done it before, I recommend buying the curd 1st and then testing your mozzarella skills on just the on, you know, on the actual pasta
+
+[20:54] fillata part on making the cheese in the in the hot water. That way you can perfect that portion of it before you go to the actual part of making the curd. Although we all know that I would also do the same thing and go directly from milk to
+
+[21:08] cheese and there's no way I would buy my curd. So I obviously think you won't do that, but still, I should just let it say that I should recommend that. anyway. So one instruction everyone gives is to avoid ultra pasteurized milk because they don't form curds properly. And so he's not using ultra pasturized milk for that. And but then I went to look it up and see why. It's actually quite interesting. When you pasteurized milk. You denature a certain part of the whey proteins. Basically, I think it's beta lactic lobulin, right? As they denature, they have a tendency then to addsorb onto or to complex with the caseine. And what happens when you're when you make cheese, when you make curds with Reddit, which is the enzyme that's used to make, you know, most cheeses, is that it basically cleaves off a hydrophilic part of the caseine, casing my cells,
+
+[22:01] and makes it such that they're more hydrophobic. And because of that, they tend to aggregate together and form a cheese curd, right? Now, if you pasteurize your milk too much, too high a temperature or for too long, the denatured whey
+
+[22:14] proteins, basically glom onto the casing and prevent them from forming a good gel, from
+
+[22:22] from aggregating together and forming a good gel. So ultra pasteurized milk, you really can't make a good, strong, good, strong curd out of it. There's been some studies recently. I did get a chance to read it too much, though. That's not the only thing going on because they tried to, they basically removed all of the whey proteins from
+
+[22:38] milk. So it was just basically a casing suspension. Then they heated that and they still had problems with getting it to aggregate properly if it had been cooked to
+
+[22:48] a higher temperature. So there's actually more than one thing going on with it. But a lot of people have been, there's a bunch of reasons why you'd want to pasteurize to a higher temperature. One is because certain cheeses have an infection with clustridium. Tyroabutericum, which I'm sure I've pronounced incorrectly, but it makes puteric acid later on in the cheese ripening and can make it
+
+[23:10] smell. I don't know. What's a good word? Vomit, like vomit. And so they try to kill that with ultra high temperature pasteurization, but it really stops
+
+[23:17] the cheese from ripening properly later in the process because it also destroys some native milk enzymes that are needed for the protein ripening further down the line.
+
+[23:27] So that, you know, that's what I spent my morning reading about, that kind of stuff. But he actually wasn't interested necessarily in making cheese, but in whether or not ultra pasteurized milk is going to make a difference in frothing for cappuccinos. And I don't know. I assume it would because the protein in milk is one of the things that's helping form a stable milk foam when
+
+[23:46] you're frothing cappuccinos. And so I would assume, and, you know, as we all know, milk loses a lot of its, well, not as we all know. If you're a cappuccino head or a milk frothing head, you know, most people recommend not taking your milk as you're foaming
+
+[24:00] it much above. I mean, they don't recommend taking it much above 140. A lot of the times Fahrenheit. really 150 in that range. Otherwise, if I don't take it up there, my wife thinks the drink is too cold, but presumably you're inhibiting the formation of foams with a similar reaction where you're basically inhibiting the ability of the
+
+[24:21] casing to act as a good foam stabilizer. This is my assumption. I don't know. I could be 100% wrong, but this is my assumption. So I would assume that ultra-high-passurized stuff does not foam as well, although I have not tested
+
+[24:36] it. But what I was more interested in is that it turns out that, oh, and he was also asking because he has a little thing called an
+
+[24:42] Aerochino. And even though he's the fellow that wrote in about the arrow press, apparently the
+
+[24:47] arrochino is not related to the arrow press. It's a little thing that foams foams milk by having a little squiggledoodle. what do you call it? Spring, squiggledoodle, squiggledoodle. What? Anyway, it whips a little spring around and heats the milk to create a foam. And yeah, you know, you can make a good foam just by agitation and you don't need an aerosquiggle to do it. You know, when I, when I'm, you know, in the wilds, and by that, I mean, at my mom's house or at my mother-in-law's house, you know, I always foam milk by shoving a whisk into a coffee mug heating the milk and swirling the whisk back and forth between my hands,
+
+[25:18] you know, spinning it almost like a, like a chocolate, like a coffee, a chocolate frother, like a Mexican chocolate frother. And it works okay. It doesn't work great. And I think, uh, you know, it might be possible to to get a decent, and the question for any kind of foam head with coffee is not, can you produce
+
+[25:35] bubbles? Because any moron can produce bubbles. It's whether you can produce microphone, right? So like the real coffee heads, if you show them a foam that you made in your cappuccino machine, even if you really like it,
+
+[25:45] right? But it has lots of big bubbles on the top, they're like, that's dishwasher soap. That's crap. You know what I mean? They want like a dense, stable, uh, or semi-stable, but very dense kind of microfoam, almost where the bubbles are so small that they're almost, you know, imperceptible when you look at
+
+[26:01] them. They don't look like a big batch of bubbles. It just looks like a dense, creamy foam. And that's what they're looking at. And I have my doubts as to whether or not you could use a spring to do it, although I'm probably wrong. I'd like to see someone. Maybe I haven't had time to go on coffee geek, which is a great website for you coffee heads, to go on to, but I haven't had a tan chance to go on and see whether or not anyone's created a really nice microphone with one of these little whip doodles. Uh, as, I, I just got it,
+
+[26:28] nastache. You think of a better name than Whipdoodle. But even more interesting than that, is that Ken is an owner of
+
+[26:35] a La Chimbly Liberty Lever machine, right? Now, um, for those of you out there who don't know about Liverpool espresso or, you know, don't drink espresso anyway. If you don't drink espresso, go out and learn to drink espresso. But if you like espresso, as I do, you know, you're gonna, at some point, spend a lot of time researching lever pulled machines. Now, uh, I myself am an owner of a microchimbly, which is a small, uh, lever, lever operated, uh,
+
+[27:06] Chimbly's an espresso machine manufacturer. But I'm an owner of one. I don't use anymore because it's a big pain in the rear, but lever pull espresso machines, to my taste, make the best espresso that you could possibly have.
+
+[27:17] Now, my my relationship to espresso machines goes back to the mid to late 90s when I was going to restaurant auctions in New York
+
+[27:25] City and buying restaurant equipment on the cheap. I realized very early on that, you know, there's no way I was going to buy myself a, you know, a
+
+[27:32] home, uh, a home espresso machine because, you know, everyone on the internet, and I was reading the professional, you know, the professional baristas were like, you know, there is no home machine that can make real espresso.
+
+[27:42] And back in those days, there really wasn't. I mean, there was the, uh, there was the, uh, Ranchillio, um, Oh, man, with the Sylvia was, I think, around at that point. I think, and people were modifying it, but no one had modified the machines to the level that they're modifying now. So really the only thing you could do was you could get a real commercial espresso machine, which is what I
+
+[28:01] did, went to an auction, and I believe I said this on the air once before, but, you know, the New York Times has auctions in the back of their, they're used to in the back of the help wanted ads. And restaurants are closing all the time here in New York. So I went and this one, I was super excited because the restaurant had been shut down because of
+
+[28:17] they had been dealing drugs out of the restaurant. And what that meant was that the whole building had just been padlocked and all the food was still in there and the stench was enough to like completely like blow your pants off. It was that bad. His stench was so awful. And what that meant was, is that none of the normal restaurant equipment dealers or chefs could stand it, right? Because, you know, they had other things to be doing with their lives and dealing with this hard stench for hours. Me, on the other hand, as a just ex-grad student with about 2 nickels in my
+
+[28:45] pocket and desire, you know, desiring a professional espresso machine that costs 1000s and 1000s of dollars, was like, this is an awesome opportunity. So I stuck around, bought a, you know, a 2 head ranchillio commercial espresso machine for like a 100 and changed dollars and paid, paid a literal, just got out of Rikers, X crack dealer, crackhead, to drive it, to drive me with it in his station wagon, back to my house, my loft at the time, realized, I didn't, I knew so little about espresso machines at the time, that I didn't realize that the pump was super, uh, important part that was separate.
+
+[29:23] And I accidentally left it in this guy's car and I had to call him and like go to his house and retrieve this
+
+[29:30] pump. complete nightmare. But anyway, it got me launched me on my love of espresso. But I became interested in lever machines at the time because another way to generate really good espresso without
+
+[29:42] having like a big pump is to just basically use your hands to have a piston to force the espresso out because espresso is, as I've said on the show before, not possible at the lower pressures that
+
+[29:52] people are using. You really want somewhere in the area of 135 or so, plus or minus a bunch of PSI of pressure, pushing coffee at a very precise temperature through a compressed coffee puck, you know, in 22 to 28 seconds.
+
+[30:06] That's espresso, right? That's that's it. That's all you got. is no more. So, um, So anyhow, so the lever machines are great, and there's always a fight between true leverheads who say that lever lever espresso is better.
+
+[30:19] you know, and the people who use the pumps and say the pumps are better. Now, there's 2 basic lever styles. The one that everyone gets, the La Pavoni, you know, you're a Piccolo, right? That's the one that you see in the stores. shiny chrome. In that one, when you pull down on the piston, you're applying the pressure to the actual coffee puck and putting the, putting the water through. In all commercial espresso machines. And interestingly, in the Chimbley micro, in the microchimbley lever machine, which is a home machine, all the commercial ones, your hand, when you pull down, is engaging a
+
+[30:51] spring, and then when you release it, it's the actual spring that's providing the pressure.
+
+[30:55] And for years, many people wrote, and they're in their blogs and whatnot, that the reason that lever pulled machines were
+
+[31:02] better is because, or different anyway, is because Liverpool machines had a constant pressure, whereas the rotary pump that we use in modern espresso machines is not as even a pressure, right?
+
+[31:12] And that's why they say that that's the difference between the two. So basically, then the difference is in a nutshell that you get more crema in a rotary pump machine, but you get a smoother tasting cup in a
+
+[31:22] Liverpool machine. And I didn't, you know, think about this. And then, you know, I did a lot of research on it because about 4 or 5 years ago, I went to the National Restaurant Association
+
+[31:33] show, and someone was pulling shots out of a Liverpool Vittorio Arduino, which is not, you know, aesthetically not my
+
+[31:39] style, because it's all, you know, Gus eating hoard up with brass and all crap like that. But, but this guy pulled 2 shots, one out of the, one out of that and one out of a, a Walmart Soca, which is a sweet machine sitting right next to
+
+[31:49] it, and same barista, same beans, and the Arduino blew the
+
+[31:53] landmark Soca out of the water. It was one of the best cups of espresso. It was definitely the best cup of espresso I've ever had in Chicago. Let's put it that way. But it was one of the better cups to espresso I'd ever had. And I resolved right there that I was going to figure out the lever machine. And here's what it is that makes a lever machine better than a pump
+
+[32:11] machine or to my taste better. It's not that it's smoother. It's that the pressure changes, right? Because I had been thinking if I was going to build one of my own. How do I compensate for the fact that a spring is going to exert more force when it's at, uh, when it's compressed
+
+[32:24] more and didn't Stasha get lost off the thing? It's gonna exert more force when it's compressed more and less when it's compressed less, right? So it's not that the rotary pump is more is less even. It's that the spring pump actually changes its pressure from the beginning of the shot to the end of the shot, which makes for, to my taste, a
+
+[32:42] smoother, better cup. And so one thing I've been working on for the past couple of years, but and I haven't finished building yet, although I have done handmade tests of it, is an espresso machine where you can adjust the pressure during the shot. And the true story is, is that if you manually adjust the pressure from high, right, at the at the initial part of the shot, a little bit over 140, and then drop it down towards the end of the shot, you can do a lever puma shot with a Liverpool style shot with
+
+[33:13] a rotary pump. Jack is telling me that we are going to go to our next commercial break. So call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. You feel good. So much bone, brother. How you feel, man? Don't call your name. I don't want all people to know you in here. How you feeling, Bella? Hey, yeah. Sure, getting down. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a bump, good time. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have fun, good time. Now take 'em up, Fred. We gotta take you high. All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again, huh? Yeah, that's doing that. Gotta take you high.
+
+[34:19] Brother? Yeah. Now I want everybody, let bread blow in my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do it, and we did it now, all right? All right, all right. I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. Go, James, hold on. Fred, can it take us higher? Take us higher. Fred! Bam! Welcome back to cooking issues, calling your questions too, 718-497218. That's 718-497-2128. Someday we'll play that song long enough to get to the down D funky D part because, you know, it's all about the down D funky D. Oh, one more thing, interesting, is that about pasteurization, going back to
+
+[35:05] pasteurized, ultra pasteurized milk, Jack says he's not been able to ever adequately froth
+
+[35:10] ultra high pasteurized milk, you know, even like the fancy organic stuff. And the reason, of course, that they ultrahypaturize that stuff is so that you can increase the shelf life, I guess, because they have small distribution runs.
+
+[35:20] But another interesting thing on pasteurization in general is we have a new clarification technique in our centrifuge that I haven't written about yet, where we use a combination of
+
+[35:29] silicasol. Kesosol, and kitasan, which is a polysaccharide, unfortunately derived from shellfish. So, you know, it's not for vegetarians, where we can now clarify lime juice in our centrifuge in,
+
+[35:42] you know, with 98% yield or more. It's crazy and it's super fast. It doesn't involve Agar or any other nonsense. It's awesome. And it's all stuff you can buy at a homebrew shop, but unfortunately you have to own a centrifuge. But what's funny is it doesn't work on pasteurized Tropicana orange juice. And so if anyone out there has speculation as to why I can clarify fresh orange
+
+[36:06] juice, and fresh grapefruit juice, but I can't clarify pasteurize, orange juice, but I can clarify pasteurize, uh, grapefruit juice, um, please let us know because it's something
+
+[36:18] that, uh, I can't, I can't figure it out. So I don't know, don't know what's going on. Got another question in. Actually, more, you know, more of a comment, something to think about. something I hadn't thought about it. A while back, someone asked us about different tubers. So we did a kind of tuber of the world, you know, thing. And one of the things we mentioned is that, well, a lot of tubers, like cassava, have, you know, can have potentially deadly levels of cyanide precursors in
+
+[36:46] them, so they need to be treated properly, that other ones have very high levels of oxalic acid.
+
+[36:52] And so, you know, which is usually concentrates in the leaves and
+
+[36:57] whatnot, but have to be cooked properly. One of those is tarot. So we were talking about tarot, you know, the same stuff that you make, you know,
+
+[37:04] tarot putting out of and all that tarot chips, all that. And so we were talking about
+
+[37:09] exalic acid. And one of our, uh, you know, listeners brought to our attention the fact that there is a, uh, probably a more occurring now,
+
+[37:16] but uh, less known disease called oxalosis. And so, and, you know, it basically causes kidney stones. Well, if you have kidney stones, it means that you're not getting rid of your excess oxalate. But it's something I hadn't, I hadn't thought about, but what he said is that there's, the science is crazy because the list of foods doesn't seem to make any sense.
+
+[37:38] So you can't, you can have all the ingredients in French toast, let's say, but you can't have French
+
+[37:43] toast, and you can't have, you know, there's a whole list of things that you can't have.
+
+[37:48] I would encourage anyone to write in and tell us anything they know about this. I'm interested in it. My mom just got over a really, really bad bout of kidney stones. And so it's something I'm interested in. And so if anyone writes in, we'll do a little thing on diet and oxalic acid, oxalosis, but it's definitely something that we should be more, probably more attuned to, something that I hadn't really, really thought about.
+
+[38:12] So Nastasia tells me that I have a bunch of questions that I haven't actually gotten to because I've been yapping about stuff that I'm interested in.
+
+[38:19] So Nastasia, what are those, what questions am I missing out on? Do you know? Oh, I'd forward them to your email, but one guy wants to know how to make great brisket. How to make great brisket? Cook it right. kidding. Now, if you want to make a great brisket. The question is what kind of technique, what kind of technique do you want to use? I mean, you can do a low temperature cook on a brisket, but it's not
+
+[38:41] going to have the same taste and texture as you would have like a classic Texas style
+
+[38:46] brisket because it's an entirely different cooking technique. Both are low and slow. In a classic technique, you're using the poor heat transfer of the of the medium and plus the evaporation off the surface of the meat to ensure that the meat doesn't dry out too much during its long cooking period, although that sounds contradictory, I think it's what I
+
+[39:04] meant. Whereas if you do it low temperature, you're typically going to be doing it in a bag, I would probably cook it on the order of the length of time that I would cook.
+
+[39:11] If you're doing low temperature and you want to basically throw it into a Ziploc bag with a little bit of fat, I would
+
+[39:19] say, depending on what you want, between 60 degrees, Celsius for about 56 hours, or I would try all the way up to 63 for degrees for like
+
+[39:36] 40, 48 hours, or even as high as 65
+
+[39:41] for, you know, for um, for like 36 hours or so. But if you want the brisket to have that cured taste, then obviously you're going to have to put some tender quick or some
+
+[39:52] nitrite into it to get it to have that cured taste and then vacuuming it down will cause that to penetrate faster. But I haven't read the email, so I don't know exactly what is being looked at. I only, you know, this is just off the top of my head, like different things you can do to brisket. Does that answer pretty much the question, Nastasia? having not read it? Yeah, I mean, he just said that he saw your fried chicken recipe and he wanted to know if you had any good recipes for briskets. My fried chicken, which one on the food and wine? Good wine. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I now, when I do fried chicken at home, I still love that recipe. Carlo here at Roberta's has like a crazy recipe that I think is derived from the
+
+[40:30] pies and thighs franchise, which is closed and then reopened here in New York. And they have an insane, insanely easy recipe that really makes me kind of upset because, because I liked it, but it was, you know, goes against all of my knowledge of good chicken making, and that is
+
+[40:45] they take it directly out of the brine, the chicken. They don't dry off the skin or anything like that. They throw it directly into AP flour. I think with maybe some salt and pepper. if they added baking soda, baking powder, but no egg, no nothing, no milk. And then fry it directly. and I thought it was pretty good. What do you think, Nastasia? Yeah, was delicious. Yeah. Anyway, so that's something I'm going to research on fried chicken. But currently, the problem with fried chicken when I make it at home is that fried chicken has to be fried at a lower temperature than french fries and onion rings. And so, uh, the way I always used to do it is I fry off all my chicken, ramp
+
+[41:18] my my temperatures and then and then bust out all my fries, which is fine at at at dinner. But at a party, it becomes kind of a hassle because you can't throttle your fryer temperatures up and down like
+
+[41:27] that because I have a £35 deep fryer at home, which is a commercial deep fryer. So what I do now is I do cooking for what I call low temperature for insurance, I bag cooking insurance, that is, not like, you know, insurance, like for your house, is I bag all of the
+
+[41:42] chicken in the in a very small amount of the milk brine, very small amount, just enough to get a good seal on a
+
+[41:48] Ziploc bag. And I cook the breast meat at 64 for about an hour, Celsius, and I cook the leg meat at
+
+[41:56] 65 and a half for about an hour, and then I pull them out. And when they're hot, I pull them out of the bag and put them on a grate so that the skin can dry off just from the heat of
+
+[42:06] that bringing off the chicken. And that's the crucial step when people do a low temp before they fry that they forget to do on a
+
+[42:12] chicken because they let it cool in the bag and then they pull off and they get really bad adhesion of the flour and batter to the chicken skin.
+
+[42:18] So the secret is pull it out when it's hot, let it flash off in the open. Then I do my traditional uh, my traditional uh, breading technique on it, which
+
+[42:27] is uh, it goes into a buttermilk, egg, uh, it goes flour, buttermilk, egg, uh, baking soda, baking powder, and then back into flour, and
+
+[42:34] then uh, and then you fry it. And then I can fry the chicken at a very high temperature, same temperature as my fries, and I know it's perfect every time. I don't have to worry about it going over or under. I don't have to stick a knife into it and stick it against my bottom lip to see whether or not I've cooked all the way through, which is what I used to have to do all the time. So it's a really good way of doing chicken. If you have an immersion circulator, some access to low temperature. Otherwise, you have to just cut the chicken pieces smaller so that they cook through faster. Did I have any more questions? I'd answer, Nastasia? Yeah, someone wants to know how to do.com feet sous vide. Ah, so duck confit sous vide, or low temperature, if you don't have a, you know, an actual vacuum machine is an interesting, interesting problem. So we don't do low, low temperature. In other words, we don't cook it any lower temperature than you would normally cook it
+
+[43:20] because, um, confit, the texture of confit is only achieved at the higher temperatures you'd associate with the normal braising.
+
+[43:28] However, sous vide is a fantastic technique for doing confit for several reasons. First of all, you still have to cure the duck legs beforehand, right? You have to cure them with salt and, you know, whatever herbs you normally rub in, let it sit overnight. But you don't need a lot of fat. This is the primary thing. It's great. You don't need a lot of fat to do to do confit sous vide. You could basically bag the leg by itself with maybe an extra tablespoon of fat if that, uh, seal it, you can seal it really hard, um,
+
+[43:57] because, uh, you, you have a bone in it, so you need to seal it pretty, pretty hard. And normally when you steal poultry on the bone, the problem is the blood is sucked
+
+[44:04] out, the red stuff sucked out of the bone, it can lend pinkness to the meat that doesn't go
+
+[44:08] away even when you cook it. But confit is cooked so high that you don't need to worry about it. Then just throw it into simmering water in the bag for, you know, 3 hours or so until you feel that you can feel the bone through
+
+[44:19] the duck meat and you know it's done. Pull it out, let it cool down, you know, a little on your counter for 20, 30 minutes. Then, you know, put it in the fridge or in a nice bath and chill it down. And it's perfect. It's so not messy compared to normal comfy. You can do individual leg portions by themselves, so you can easily, you know, if you're a family of two, you can, you know, cook the breasts for, you know, one
+
+[44:44] thing and then just comfy just those 2 legs. And then serve them whenever you want. And so it's really super easy for someone to comfy, especially at home when you don't have a zillion duck legs lying
+
+[44:56] around and you don't have like buckets of duck fat and you haven't been saving duck fat from rendering all the breasts like they do in restaurants. The thing's never going to overheat. It's never going to go bad. So it really is a fantastic technique for doing duck confit, but I would basically just use simmering
+
+[45:11] water or if you have a circulator, set it to about 85 Celsius and run it that way until it's done. And I think it's, I think it's great. I mean, it's not necessarily better than traditional comfy. It may it's probably a little moisture. is not necessarily better, but it definitely is a great, great way to do duck
+
+[45:26] confit, especially at home. Does that have any more than I missed? No, because it's time and your time's up. Yeah, but did I miss any? No. No. All right. Here's one more thing on the way out. I am going to soon write my post on UP Hedrick's Fruits of New York series. The greatest pomological reference library of all times. And yesterday, I acquired the last two. I'm actually missing one more, but the last 2 of the series. And so now I am the owner of the greatest pomological reference series of all times. This has been cooking initials. We see you next week. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:06] Vicious, fish, vodka. Hello and welcome to an on-time edition of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:16] Network. Coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here again with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, back from her Florida trip. Calling all of your questions, cooking related otherwise, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Today's show is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, which is a long time. The Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.herstranch.com. That's www.herstranch.com. They actually supplied the rib eye for the heritage radio fundraiser that was a couple months back, the one where we did the banana sustino drink. Delicious. Right? Delicious. Delicious. Good product. Anyway, uh, So yesterday was Valentine's Day. What did you do for your wife? Well, you know, I bought flowers because I'm lazy. But the, that's not the point. The point is, is that I was reminded by my, I was reminded by my 3rd grade son, the horrors that used to be Valentine's Day. I was that kid, uh, who, you know, when everyone was buying carnations for their, you know, they
+
+[1:36] would buy carnations for their friend for like a dollar. Like, I was the one that got the mystery admirer carnation. like they would, they didn't think I understood it. That meant that no one bought me a damn carnation. And so they just give one to you because no one's purchased one for you. You know what I mean? You know that kid? That kid was me, right? I mean, it's like, Valentine's. Oh, geez. Oh, really? California. See, everyone thinks New York people aren't sympathetic, but in fact, you know, like they give out the sympathy carnation. Where actually good people over here in New York for those of you that don't know us. Anywho, so, you know, Valentine's Day was, you know, basically a
+
+[2:06] yearly living nightmare horror story for me. Actually, up until, you know, 1990, uh, 1991, no, 1992, right, when I was 20, uh, was the 1st year I had a good Valentine's, and it was the day I started dating, uh,
+
+[2:24] a actual, you know, crackerjack, smart, badass, verifiable hot chick, uh, whom I eventually married, and who's my currently my wife.
+
+[2:33] So, um, anyway, so Valentine's Day ended up being good for me, but was horrible for the 1st 20 years. And my son had this happen. He was, you know, gave a valentine to a girl in a 3rd grade. and which he would never do. He's not that kind of a kid. He gives it to her and completely rebuffed. Like, yeah, Valentine on the floor. I don't want this complete horror. I felt awful in my my younger son, his brother, basically, who's an equal mix of really sensitive, sweet kid and gun loving, crazy, rough and tumble boy monster, goes, all right, we're either going to kick her in the face or
+
+[3:12] dipp her in poop. And then, like, you know, no one's saying anything because they don't know what to say because it's this crazy thing to say. And then after a couple seconds, he's like, so which is it? Kick in the face or dipping poop? anyway, that was Valentine's Day. So, yeah. Hey, yeah, no, no, no, anyway. I wasn't calling him out too bad. I guess everyone knows him who knows my son. Anyway, so another thing we're announcing we just sent out the press release for the Museum of Food and Drink a fundraiser. and the museum of food. Do we have a call in? All right, so I'll take the call 1st so I can spend the adequate amount of time on the museum of food and drink. Hello, caller, you are on the air. Hi. I've been working a lot lately with preserved lemons and Indian lime pickles and Yuzuko
+
+[3:53] show. And I'd realized recently that I didn't actually understand kind of the mechanism of what's going on with
+
+[3:59] salt, jewelry and citrus like that. The acinity, acidity, and the salinity are too high for any sort of microbial or bacterial
+
+[4:07] mechanism. So it's just got to be sort of the salt, the sort of controlled rot. But I don't really know what's going on. The whole thing gets darker and, you know, the, I get thicker and the texture changes. I wonder if you could explain a little bit about what's going on there. Wow, that's actually an excellent question. I haven't really, I haven't really thought about it. I'm sure that there's got to be some sort of, there's got to be some sort of bacterial growth, right? Otherwise, it would be purely an enzymatic reaction that's causing it to happen, which I don't think it is, because the thing definitely changes over time, right? So if it so if it changes over time, either you're dealing with an enzymatic process or you're dealing with a bacterial slash enzymatic process or it's probably not a
+
+[4:53] yeast-based or any sort of fungal-based thing, I know that you know who's an expert in this is Harold McGee. Um, I'm going to speak to him relatively soon. I should ask him, you've caught me completely off guard on something that I haven't studied. I do know that if you, that certain things do happen in them that look like
+
+[5:11] they're, uh, like they're bacteria based. For instance, you can get, you can get situations when you're curing them
+
+[5:17] uh, with certain kinds of lemons where you get like ropey substance forming in the, in the cured lemon thing, which is probably some sort of polysaccharide, which I would guess, which I would
+
+[5:26] guess is formed by uh, bacteria, but could be just some sort of wonky thing happening to the pectin over time. I don't know. I wish I did. I'm sorry that. Do you have a question? I might have an answer to this. This is like the 1st time I've been completely 100% stumped on what the correct answer is, right?
+
+[5:40] Right, Nastachi? Yeah. Yeah, I can't think of it. I've been listening. I've listened to all the episodes, and I've never heard you this one before, so... You know, I should give you some sort of prize for a
+
+[5:52] complete stump out. But what I can do, uh, is go I'll go online and I'll go into like the actual literature search, not just like the regular internet. I'll go into like, uh, I'll go into Columbia's database of uh, of uh, science literature, and I'll see if I can't find the stuff. And barring that, um, I will, I will ask McGee and he will tell me what's going on. And we did have a question where I did follow up next week. So Nastasia is now being very good about making sure I follow up. So listen to next week for the answer to the question, all right? All right, then I'll post something to the forum to remind you. Cool. thanks a lot Okay, bye. Oh, depressing 1st call, stumped. Stumped. Stumped. No, that's me, big jerk. Anyway. So, um, museum. Museum. So the Museum of Food and Drink is, you know, a museum that tried to start a long time ago, like six, five, 6 years ago, six, I guess,
+
+[6:42] and, you know, Patrick Martins and I are now trying to get back off the ground again, and we're having a major fundraiser, and the fundraiser is going to be on Sunday. Sunday, Sunday, March 27th, uh, and it's gonna, you know, it's not cheap. what is it? It's cheap for the for the food. Well, from what you get, it's cheap. $250. It's not inexpensive, but it's a bargain. Anyway. It's a 5 hour extravagance. Well, we don't know. Up to 5 hours extravaganza. Anyway, so we're putting it on, and here's the current, and what we're doing is we're getting a bunch of chefs and bartenders to come in to Del Posto, which is a fabulous, you know, restaurant
+
+[7:16] in New York for stars. Our friend Mark Ladner is the chef there. And we're getting a bunch of chefs and bartenders to come in and cook things based on specific themes,
+
+[7:26] right? So we're giving them a theme and their dish is going to be inspired by it. So here is the list in no particular order. Dave Chang, his theme is American food circa 1491. That's going to be all foods that don't have, you know, all foods from the Americas prior to the Colombian
+
+[7:42] Exchange. That should be interesting. I'm thinking he's probably going to do something with acorns, which was a big native, you know, Native American food stuff, but also a big Korean food stuff, so he could probably pull in, like, you know, different levels of work there. So I'm assuming he's going to do something with acorns, but who knows? Wiley Dufrayne. Uh, you know, from WD 50, my brother-in-law. I gave him because he's well-known tech guy. I gave him caveman food. He was kind of mad at me, but, you know, what are you going to do? Caveman food. Paleolithic. Mark Ladner, the host chef from Del Posto. I gave him ancient Rome. And so Wiley actually texted me, he was like, hey, you gave Mark a softball there with the ancient Rome, but not really. Ancient Roman cuisine is extraordinarily different from modern Italian cuisine has a completely different basis, like, you know, spice and ingredient basis, you know, based more on, uh,
+
+[8:33] on, uh, lubbage seed, and, uh, fish sauce and, uh, you know, just a whole different ingredient based than what's known. So it's not really a softball. That's what he's going to be doing. Nils, Nils Norin, uh, uh, you know, kind of of the French culinaryist one, right? I gave him just to be a jerk. I gave him fad diets. See what he does with that, fad diets. Cesare Casella, who's coming at the beginning and give us a whole bunch of delicious
+
+[8:59] salumi to fit in with the fact that we knew he was going to bring saluvi. We gave him shriveled meat as his category. And then, okay, Carlo from Roberta's, whose last name I've never been able to pronounce. I'm going to try. Well, Mirachi. But you got to say like, Mirachi. Anyway, I don't know how you're supposed to pronounce. Anyway, he's going to do New York food, Circa, the early 1900s, or if that was late 1800s, early 1900s, 1900s. early 1900s? Okay. Brooks Headley, the pastry chef from Del Posto, is going to be doing Hebrew food in Italy, because there's a big group of people that basically had to leave Spain during the
+
+[9:34] Inquisitions, settled in Italy and brought some very interesting dessert things with them, you know, some of which are kind of big in my family.
+
+[9:42] And Christina Tozi, also of Momafuku Milk Bar, or
+
+[9:46] Momfuku, but a milk bar, we're giving her, this is a tough one, space food. Here's why we're giving her space food. She was like, space food. Why are you giving me space food? I was like, well, Christina Tozzi, other than being, you know, the fantabulous Christina Tozzi that she is, little known fact, she writes a lot of the Hassett plans for the sous vide programs here in the city that chefs have.
+
+[10:04] And Hassip was originally developed by large food corporations like
+
+[10:08] Pillsbury, and for the space program, the idea being that they needed, they needed 0 tolerance food system because if an astronaut gets the poops in the
+
+[10:18] space. It's a big problem. So anyway, so Hassett was developed in part for the space program and is now used basically in all industries for food.
+
+[10:27] And so I gave her that as a tip of the hat to her hassop skills. Audrey Saunders from the Pegu Club will be making drinks. Thomas Waugh from Death and Co, also, Simon Ford, the head, I guess, head bartender for
+
+[10:42] Pernot Ricard, Damien Bolte from Prime Meats, and Evan Klem from BR Guest Restaurants, and fellow techie related bartend
+
+[10:50] dude will be doing it. All proceeds will go to the Museum of Food and Drink. Please go to HTTP, colon forward forward, mofad. That's M-O-F-A-D, like Museum of Food and Drink.eventbright. Spell it improperly, B-R-I-T-E.com. That's HTTP, uh, forward forward, mofad.eventwrite.com for more info. All right. That was a long plug. Anyway, because we want you to come. It's gonna be a great, great time. All right. Now, on to real questions. I have a question about tempering chocolate in the microwave. Most of the instructions I've seen are very complicated, requiring a good candy thermometer, and often instructions to use a microwave multiple times, or add additional cold chocolate to the microwave
+
+[11:31] trophets during, et cetera, et cetera. I've tried about 3 or 4 times, simply putting 2 cups of chocolate chips into the microwave until they turn glossy and removing them, stirring them until they melt. Each time these two-step processes work just fine. Are the additional steps and temperature precision really necessary? Have I just been getting lucky or something else at work? Kurt Kastorf? Well, I think you're just lucky, Kurt. Anyway, but, but, uh, the point is, uh, is that if that recipe works for you,
+
+[11:58] like, you, you will be repeatably lucky. If you do the same thing and it's working, then it should be able to repeat itself because
+
+[12:04] here, here's what's actually, what's actually going on and why the recipes are so complicated. And by the way, you have to make sure that the chocolate is actually tempering, right? Like, you know, you have to make sure it's actually getting a good temper. I mean, obviously anyone can just melt chocolate in the microwave. The question is, are you getting a good temper? If you are getting a good temper. And by the way, for those of you, well, you'll hear. Anyway. So chocolate has basically the cocoa butter in it has roughly 6 ways of crystallizing, right? The cocoa butter can form 6 different crystal structures, and those crystal structures have different properties, right? So, you know, most and those crystals have different melting points, right? So what happens is, badly tempered chocolate is mostly in form four, which is also known as beta prime. And good tempered chocolate is in form five, which is beta crystals, right? So what happens is if you heat chocolate up, melt out all the crystals and then cool it down too rapidly, which is basically any kind of cooling that you're going to do to it is too
+
+[13:08] rapid. Uh, it will form mostly uh, type 4 beta prime crystals. And what those are is they're soft, right? Because they have a lower melting point. So they're very soft. They have a lot of, they don't, they're not hard. They don't have a snap and they're dull looking. not glossy. All in all, they're kind of crappy. And even if even if you didn't care about all the fact that it, you know, didn't have good texture and it melted too low, if you store those for a long time, they will convert from beta
+
+[13:34] prime to beta. And that sounds like it's a good thing, right, Nastasia, because the beta is what you want. Yeah. It's a bad thing. You know why? No. Well, it's because all of the forms of, as they get more and more hard and more and more stable. When they go from beta prime to beta, they contract. And when they contract from beta prime to beta, they squeeze fat out of the cocoa part and you get that white fat bloom on the top. So poorly, poorly tempered chocolate will get fat bloom very quickly, even if you didn't care about the snap and all the rest of that stuff,
+
+[14:06] right? Okay. So, and so that's why the typical old school hardcore tempering technique
+
+[14:11] is you melt out all of the crystals by taking it up to, you know, like a 115 or so
+
+[14:17] Fahrenheit. Sorry, Celsius heads. We going to do this one in Fahrenheit. And then, uh, you rapidly cool it down, uh, to, you know, in the in the 80s somewhere. And then crystals start forming. And then you reheat it up to about 94 or so to melt out all the crappy beta prime
+
+[14:33] crystals, right? Now all you have in there is beta crystals. Now when you cool it again, she'll be tempered because those beta crystals will act like little seeds that everything kind of hooks onto, right? It's all about seating it, right? The easy way to, and that's if you're starting from all you have, you're on a desert island, you have a pot, a thermometer, and a bunch of untempered chocolate, right?
+
+[14:50] That's how you would do it. Most of the time, what we do is we just melt the chocolate, right? We take it up, melt it, bring it down into the range
+
+[14:58] where beta crystals want to form in the 90s, right? And then stir in chopped up tempered chocolate that already have the good seeds
+
+[15:06] in the good crystal form. And then all of a sudden, all of the chocolate as it cools will form those nice stable beta crystals, right? But you need at least, you know, about, you know, one to 3% of beta crystals mixed all throughout it. So you're stirring it, right, to cause it happen, to seed it, to seed it properly. Now, when you're doing it in the nuke, right? You're starting with, hopefully with tempered chocolate. If you start with tempered chocolate, right? And you nuke it, so it's like you say, just glossy on the outside. And then you stir it. So long as the temperature of that thing is in the beta zone,
+
+[15:42] right, in the like 90s and not a low temperature where you're going to be forming bad beta prime crystals,
+
+[15:48] right? So as long as as soon as that last piece of chocolate melts, you're still in that like, you know,
+
+[15:53] 90, 92, 93, 94 Fahrenheit range in there, 95 in that zone, right? Then you will seed properly with beta crystals and it'll work. But the reason they have it, like taking it all the time and stirring it, and then sometimes throwing in seed chocolate, is because they're assuming that you're going to overheat the
+
+[16:11] massive chocolate so that when it's all melted, it's not going to be in the right temperature range. So, yes, you got lucky, but maybe you'll get repeatably lucky. If I were you, I would save some seed chocolate to stir in after it's all melted just in
+
+[16:22] case, and you can take the temperature when it's done, and that should give you the answer. So a long winded, but I mean, chocolate tempering is an interesting subject. The good reference book to get on chocolate that's small is the science of chocolate by Stephen T.
+
+[16:35] Beckett. It's expensive but small and fairly easy to read. I think probably a smaller investment and faster to read than the other book that people use now, Chocolate Science and Technology by Emmanuel Efo Aqua, right? And I don't know that anyone uses the old chocolate references. This is one I started using back in the day, which is Minifee, Minifee's big old chocolate book, right? And with that, we will go to our 1st commercial break, calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128, cooking issues. God,
+
+[17:05] take them up, Fred.
+
+[17:12] All right. You wanna do it again? You wanna do it again? Yeah, that's doing that. I gotta take it high. Bam! Brother? Now I want everybody. Left bread flowing by two courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and do that again now, all right? All right. I'm gonna get that bell with a little horn over there. You know, James Horn, moment. Brad, can you take us higher? Take us on you. Fred! ! Man!
+
+[18:43] Give up the name of all the bed! You know what? When I hear a groove like this, boo. Oh, I say, I got to get... Yeah, baby. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. And although that's the longest we've played that song during the intermission, we still have not made it to Funky
+
+[19:15] D, he's going to make it to Funky D in a little while, but we'd be here all day if we waited for James to go down to Funky D, although it is well worth the wait.
+
+[19:22] I encourage you all to go out and do it to death, as James, I guess I actually did, since he's now dead. Anyway, right? Dumb, really dumb. I'm a dumb man. What do you want out of me? Okay. Jason writes in from England, and I think he was listening actually to 2 weeks ago saying that he was listening to me answer the question about cookie texture using
+
+[19:43] hydrocolloids, and he says more conventionally, you just use high gluten flour, and he won't get a
+
+[19:49] Bready cookie. He'll just limit the spread, which, you know, I actually got confirmed and said last week from Christina
+
+[19:54] Tozi, but here's, you know, further confirmation that what you want to do to get your cookie to not spread so much is use a high gluten
+
+[20:00] flour. Jason adds a secondary thing, which is also, let the cookie rest in the fridge for 24 hours. I guess that will, I guess, develop the, I don't know, maybe, well, the cold will limit the spread, as we said, but also maybe developing some of the, some of the flour more. I don't know. But anyway, thank you, Jason, for that tip. Now, we had a question and it sent me off on like a, on a bunch of research. So you're going to have to hear another one of my long winded nonsense things. But Chris Anderson writes it. Before you get to your long-winded. What? Oh, we have a caller? All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey, how are you doing, David? Doing all right. See if we get a double stump this week. What do you got? My name is Matt. I'm actually calling from Chicago Hey, Chicago. Hey, Matt, from Chicago. Actually, I used to work in New York with Wiley and Mark and all those guys. I know all those guys. Um, you're not at, uh, you're not at, uh, you're not out there with uh, Mike Sharon, are you? are you cooking out in Chicago? No, no, I'm actually a sous chef at a steakhouse, but they just opened
+
+[21:00] us crazy busy, but it's a whole different story. Um, my question is, um, I'm really interested in the, uh, nitrous infusion using the ISI cream whipper. And I was wondering if you tried it with any viscous liquids like, say, honey, or some kind of
+
+[21:17] a scented syrup. All right, I haven't, but if I, if, okay, so here's the thing, right? Honey has honey is just extremely thick, right? So if I was gonna do it, I'm assuming it would work, but I think you'd want to keep the whole
+
+[21:32] thing like warmer than we normally keep it, right? So I would put the whole ISI in or EC, which is it that they like now? EC, jeez. I would put the, I would put the, uh, no, no, I'd do it. not you. It me. I can't, because in, in, here it was one, and in Europe it was the other, and they're trying to make it both the same now, but like no one can keep it straight. and when I say no one, me, no one else seems to have a problem. Anyway, EC. Um, so I would put the whole thing into a, uh, warm bane Marie for a while. And the reason is, you just need it to be thin enough to get accurate, you know, to get punched into the pores of your product, right? So if you get it nice and liquidy by warming it, then I think it should work, you know, but you have to
+
+[22:17] keep it liquid, like warm during the whole process, down to the time when you're venting it so that it can also bubble back out again. I've never tested it, but I have, I have high hopes that it will work. Let me put it that way. Outstanding. But give it a shot and then let us know how it works. Oh yeah, they will. And I got another thing on the Uzzo effect. I was listening to the old shows on the way to work the other day and I was like, I honestly, I didn't believe that you could cloudy the water. I used to drink pasthesis a lot. I didn't think that the water, that the liquor would get cloudy just by dilution. And so I had to try it. And
+
+[22:52] the, the interesting thing is, is that it does obviously get cloudy by dilution, but if you put
+
+[22:57] it in a microwave for less than 10 seconds, the cloudiness goes away. And then by adding more ice cubes to it, the cloudiness comes back. So I tried it with boiling hot water. I tried it with water, tea water, and it still gets, the cloudiness still comes in from dilution, but it goes away much faster with heat.
+
+[23:16] Huh. So it was an interesting, interesting thing. Yeah, so, huh. So when you're heating, that actually makes sense to me, right? So what's happening is you're adding water and as you add water, you reach a point at any given temperature where the oil is no longer soluble in that percentage of ethanol, right?
+
+[23:36] And so it forms instantly forms little micro, you know, droplets of oil, and that's what makes it look cloudy. If you let it sit at that temperature for a long time, sometimes depending, I don't know, with pastise, but with some of the stuff that I make, that cloudiness, the oil will actually float to the
+
+[23:53] top and then it won't be cloudy anymore, right? But what you're saying is, is you heat it. And when you heat it, you're re-increasing the solubility of the oil into the remaining ethanol fraction, right?
+
+[24:04] Because presumably you're not boiling. If you boiled it, you'd probably make the problem worse. But by heating it, you're increasing the solubility of the product and causing it to go clear again. And then when you drop the temperature again by adding ice, you're doing 2 things, when you're watering it down more, which is going to increase the
+
+[24:20] dropout, and you're also decreasing the temperature, which increases the dropout. That makes sense. But that's interesting, but I've never experimented with it before. Yeah, yeah, it was just a weird thing. I thought I had to try it out. I'd let you know. All right, cool. Thanks, man, and I'll let you know how the honey goes, okay? Very good. Thanks so much. Sure, take it easy. Oh, we have another caller. Call her you were on the air. Hi, Dave. I was messing around with some Nepales the other day, and I cut them into cubes, and I was just soaking them in some water, and I noticed this gelatinous substance was forming. And I guess that's the, uh, the substance that the cacti used to like uh, retain moisture in the desert, right? Uh, right. It's like, well, the hydrocollage, similar like what aloe vera has. Right. Okay, so is it like a mucilage like okra or like filae or is that a completely different like? You know, that's interesting. I haven't researched whether or not it can be used as a thickener. It is sure is slimy. Interestingly enough, on Sunday. I was cooking Nopales. And you know how, I mean, when I when I cook them, I always, you know, I try to get the, um, I try to get the spines off with the minimum of damage because I know they're going to ooze out a lot, you
+
+[25:28] know? And so I usually grill them 1st and then let them cool down a
+
+[25:32] bit before I slice them so they don't get too slimy on me. But I've never tried to actively actively extract the slime. So did you then, did you decant the slime off that was in the in the water and then try to use it for something or no? I did not, but I probably will try in the future, but the 1st thing I thought it was like okra and other, you know, other sickness, and I wonder how it would
+
+[25:54] compare. I mean, I'm sure it's probably, look, I mean, all different hydrocoloids have different actions and we're used to thinking of hydrocoloids as being these things that come in powdered form, but in reality, hydrocoloids are
+
+[26:08] all, not all most, are just like what you say, they come from natural sources, and they've been discovered in natural ways. Like most of the seaweed, uh, seaweed, like, you know, you can extract
+
+[26:18] carraginen from uh, Irish moss by boiling it, right? Or you can, and so okra basically is, has this kind of snotty slimy stuff that is actually a natural
+
+[26:29] hydrocolloid, just not one that's used industrially. So it doesn't get lumped in. But, you know, many products have, you know, these things. So there's a chef from Spain, I forget who it was who did it, but, you know, made a lot of demos basically using the natural hydrocoloids in aloe vera, right? Although I guess if you do that wrong, it can give you the poops because of the latex. But, yeah, but the, um, uh, so, you know, to answer your question, I don't know. I don't know of any commercially used cactus-based thickening things, but, you know, it is some polysaccharide, right? So it is some hydrocoloid. And then the question is, what are its, what are its properties? It doesn't seem like it's a geling hydrocolloid, right? It seems more like a thickener, if you ask me. But the question is, like, will it thicken without making too, making things too slimy? It's a fairly slimy stuff. You know what I mean? It's more on the order, like you say, of okra. And so when you overthinking with okra, as opposed to filet, like, like those, those, uh, those things can take on a bit of a slippery nature, right? Which I actually kind of like for those dishes, but some people don't. You know what I mean? Like some people don't some people don't get down with the okra. I happen to think that okra is one of God's gifts to, you know, humanity. I love okra, but a lot of people, a lot of people do not. I don't know why. Fried okra is one of the great things in the world. Anyway, so I think, again, I have noticed this effect, but I haven't seen whether there's any, you know what I'll
+
+[27:55] do again? I'm not going to count this as a complete stump, by the way, because I do know what you're talking about. But what I'll do is I'll try and see whether anyone has characterized what the polysaccharides are in the Nepalis. And by the way, for those of you don't know what the hell we're talking about, I realize Nepalas are like a prickly pair cactus leaves. You can buy them in Latin stores. Be careful because some of them are relatively innocuous, but some of them, the spines can be pretty nasty and can get in your fingers when you're working with them. Scrape the scrape off the spines with a knife. I cut off usually the very tip end, which is the only part I cut off because it's hard to scrape that thing accurately. Brush with oil, salt, pepper, grill, enjoy it because they're delicious. They're also kind of sour. They're slimy and kind of tart and kind of delicious. Don't you think so? I think so. agree. Yeah. Anyway, so I'll try and see whether anyone has characterized what the polysac ride is in there. And meanwhile, you see whether you can thicken up a stew with them and give us a holler back. All right, thanks, Dave. All right, very good. you. Take a break. All right, we will take our nastasia telling me we will take our 2nd commercial break, even though that was a short segment because I took the long
+
+[28:57] or 2 last. Anyway, 718 What is it? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:30] You know what? When I hear a groove like this, boo. Oh, say, I got to get out.
+
+[29:45] Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, McMahon. It's thing. Look at you. Some kind of groove like this. You know? No, No, I need the
+
+[30:06] grip, I'm gonna eat that.
+
+[30:14] John, John, the job. Need to get done. Got to bit my bread. You know, I believe, hey, every time. Brother! I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down and order for me to get down. I got to get him deep. In order for me to get down, I gotta get in deep. Need to get in D. Dog, the D, here we go. Down, D. Want to be... Down, deep... Oh, yeah. Down D, that's the balls. Goes down to D. Everyone else goes up, James goes down. Back here, cooking issues, calling your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right, Chris Anderson writes in, he says, I've tried making authentic French macaroons a few times,
+
+[31:22] macaron a few times. And while they taste great, I don't seem to be able to achieve the polished flat look of
+
+[31:28] Lagre, La Dure, which is, you know, the famous French macaroon shop in Paris, mine tend to crack and collapse as they are baking, where it helped to use an Italian meringue instead of a French. Could the meringue be too stiff? Is the open temperature too high at 180 Celsius? Are there any modern ingredients I could add to improve the result? I'd really appreciate your advice. So 1st of all, when we're talking about these, these, you know, macaron, macaron, whatever you want to call them. What we're referring to here, the Laduray style is basically a sandwich style with either a ganache or a jelly filling in between 2
+
+[31:58] soft, almond and egg white-based delicious things. They come in various colors, and they like fried okra are one of God's great creations. And I love them. So, okay, so here's the thing. I have a lot of things to say on this subject, right? But I will tell you that 1st and foremost, I just walked up to one of our pastry chefs today and was like, all right, you know, this
+
+[32:18] guy is having this problem. What do you think? Here's what, here's what Chef Jurgen, one of our lead pastry instructors said. One, what kind of sugar are you using? If you're using a coarse sugar to make your meringue or to fold in with the sugar with the almonds? Try going to a, uh, try going to a, um, my brain's gone. A finer grade of sugar? He also said that if your things are cracking and collapsing, perhaps you aren't deflating your, perhaps you aren't deflating
+
+[32:46] your, your, your egg whites enough before they go in. So there's too much air left in the mix and it's puffing up too much and cracking and collapsing. I thought that was really interesting because most of the time when you try to do a recipe with an egg white, you want to make sure not to deflate it. And he's saying, well, maybe you're not deflating it enough. I thought that was very interesting. The other thing is, I'm not sure. I didn't do the conversion from Celsius to Fahrenheit, but if your oven is too hot, it can puff up too fast and collapse. Also, remember, most recipes tell you to leave the door ajar when you're cooking these things because I guess they want the steam to
+
+[33:22] escape. So those are all those are all things things to look at. But in the course of researching your problem, I came across these things, which you may or may not find
+
+[33:32] interesting. One is just a book that I think everyone should own, but nobody does. It's almost completely unavailable. It's called Perfect Bakery and Confectionery by the Richemont Craft School, and
+
+[33:42] Nastasia's going to be gloating because I'm, you know, pumping a Swiss group, and she's like, she's Queen, Switzerland. But this craft school in Switzerland puts out this series of books, but this one, perfect bakery confectionery. It's unavailable except through them and it's like $99. It really makes me angry and I can't find it on book find or anything, but it's one of the great pastry
+
+[34:02] books because what it does is it has pictures side by side of, hey, what happens when the
+
+[34:08] flower is too fine, too course, just right. And it'll show you a picture of all the bakery stuff. So they have a, like a 4 page section on macaroons, but they're, unfortunately, they're not the kind you're talking about. the old school Italian, you know, denser, not sandwich-based cookies. All right. Secondly, I will go through a short history on the macaroons. The macaroon, obviously, originally an Italian product, and apparently derived from the same word as
+
+[34:34] a macaroni, because it's ground. It's basically any form of kind of ground almond paste and sugar that is then has egg whites added to it, right? The French ones, you know, are beaten egg white, but they don't have to be beaten. They can just be mixed in for a denser denser macaroon. That was the original one taken to France with the Medicis when they went over, right? The coconut stuff is a later is a later edition where almond was in whole or in part substituted with shredded coconut. And so that, you know, that's how the coconut macaroon. So most Americans, you ask them about a macaroon and they're thinking about a coconut product, but that was actually derived from the
+
+[35:10] almond-based one. Now, the macaron that we're talking about, the sandwich, everyone credits, everyone credits, uh, you know, uh, the, uh, this guy at La
+
+[35:20] Duray in the early part of the 20th century with uh, inventing it, right? The guy's name, I forget what it is. I have it here. Pierre Desfontaine, right? It was the grandson of the original Laderay, right? They say he invented this idea of making a double-decker macaroon, putting ganache in the middle. And I don't think that's, I mean, that's what everyone says. That's what everyone on the internet says. But I was researching this. And I went to one of the great, one of my favorite, other favorite pastry books, which you can actually get for free on the
+
+[35:52] internets because it's old. It was written in 1904 and it's called Modern Baker Confectioner and Caterer, printed in
+
+[36:02] 1907, rather, by John Kirkland. It's a 4 volume set, and you can actually get them. It was published in England, and you can still get it cheap and these are a fantastic, fantastic set of books. State of the art baking from 1907. And actually, I think they were kept revising it up till 1930 and copies are still cheap. It's 4 volumes and you can get each one for like, you know, 13 bucks if you're in England, but it's shipped over here. like 20 bucks because no one in the U.S. has them. It an English only thing, which is where I bought my copy. Um, But I was researching macaroons then, and prior to when Lada Ray was supposed to have invented it, right? They had, uh, they had something where, basically, uh, they would always sandwich the macaroons together to form a nice appearance. And that's
+
+[36:44] why, if you read recipes, and this is only for macaroon heads out there, they'll tell you to put it on parchment on a, uh, and when you pull it off the baking sheet to put some water between the parchment and the thing to make the macaroons come off easier.
+
+[36:54] In fact, they were on wafer paper before and put on water, which dissolved the wafer paper, and you could pull it off, and the bottom would be tacky, and you could stick the 2 macaroons together to make a macaroon on macaroon sandwich.
+
+[37:05] Now, one of the recommendations that this book makes, I think, is very interesting is, if you have problems sticking these 2 things together, right, then, because maybe they're not wet enough or they're just not sticking, then you can take some all, uh, some apricot jelly they recommend and wipe it between forming, what up, a standard la de
+
+[37:23] ray style macaroon? So maybe this dude at La Durre humped up a bunch of macaroons one day and was like, these things aren't sticking together, and then put a ganache instead of a jelly in between them all, and sold that
+
+[37:33] as like, you know, the cool thing, because they definitely popularized them. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so those are my thoughts on macaroons. And you should definitely go out and look on the internet for Kirkland's modern baker and confectionery or buy a hard copy like I have, has a really good section on molding and
+
+[37:49] cornstarch, and there's a lot of, even though it's very old, has a lot of, if this goes wrong, do this, if that goes wrong, do this, et cetera, et cetera, et
+
+[37:56] cetera. Really great set of books. And they also have an interesting thing to say about macaroons. If you're making macaroons in the U.S. and old school, they're talking about old school Italian macaroons here, right? If is that they're very influenced by the amount of oil in the almonds. So if you're making it from scratch with California almond, you're going to get a very different result from if you're making a macaroon with like a European or
+
+[38:18] Marcona, something like that, it has very high fat content. Because a lot of the California almonds we get have a lower fat content. And what they're saying is, is if your almonds don't flow well enough, if they're too pinched up, you're probably using an almond
+
+[38:29] with not enough fat. And if they flow too freely, maybe you're using one with too much fat. They were talking about buying almond paste that were adulterated either with non-fat products or with extra fat, but it's something that I never thought about. I thought was very, very interesting. Anyway. Uh, so, uh, so that's that for the the macaroon, I love macaroons. Don't you love macaroons? I would like one, right? I would like one right now as well. Anyway, okay, so now on to the last question, excuse me, I have to reach over and get the paper. We are a paper-based show today instead of an iPad-based show today, which is very interesting. Okay, Joe Blute, who is a at Dallas, where is he? Dallas College, right? the 1st page of it, Dallas? Dallas. Dallas. Dallas. Dallas? Yes, Dallas. Anyway, he writes in and says some very kind words about us. And he said he had a couple questions, right? So, one, he was, he's, by the way, thinking of building his own rotary evaporator, and he's a chemistry major at the University of Dallas. He's good thinking about building his own rotary evaporator. So am I. So am I, Joe, but unfortunately, I haven't had the time to do it. Hopefully sometime very soon. I will have the opportunity to do that more on that in a couple minutes. But he also was looking for a budget centrifuge. And I think we posted on that a couple times trying to find a budget centerfuge. Don't go to budget, right? Make sure that the center field is safe. That's what I'm going to, what I'm going to say. But he has a question that I want to get to. And he says, uh, I really love uh, the multifaceted aspect of the culinary arts that you get to deal
+
+[40:04] with, and what you do is something I'm interested in, uh, the mixture of organics or fact
+
+[40:08] in kinetic chemistry is fascinating. How do you come to have such a great job? And what do you recommend I do to move towards such a position? Okay, here's what I say. Um, one, you know, food science is, we don't do food science, right? We use science to make food, which is kind of a fundamental difference. Like, I don't really, I don't have like a big, you know, I can't do quantitative chemistry. I can't do anything like that. All the stuff we do, there's no real analytical work. It's all using principles and ideas with either standard kitchen cooking wear or things that we've repurposed as standard kitchen cooking wear. So when I'm using a centrifuge. I am not using a centrifuge to do, to analyze something. I'm using it to try and create a delicious product, right? When I use a rotary evaporator. I mean, although I am purifying and distilling, I'm not doing it for the same reasons that a chemist
+
+[41:01] has, it's not part of an analytical study, right? Or even a production of like a drug or something like that. So, what I do is very specialized and it's, and we read a lot of science, and I love science, and I do, and you know, I love it. But what we, what I'm actually doing day to day is cooking. And so we're, you know, what you have to do to kind of get to do the kind of stuff that I get to do is cook a lot, you
+
+[41:26] know? And so, and not just with science and tech stuff, just do a lot of cooking. You need to have a lot of cooking under your belt. You need to love cooking, you need to love tasting. You need to taste everyone else's stuff. You need to be curious about all different ingredients and what they do and
+
+[41:45] how they interact. You know, I think McGee said it best when he, you know, he wrote a book called The Curious Cook, and that's the name of his, uh, that's the name of his 2nd book, sadly, out of print. Hopefully he brings it back into print. It's a very personal book. And it basically just shows that, you know, what you need to be, McGee, is to, well, what you need to be, McGee, is to be like a real sweetheart and also smart, you know, very smart and also read a lot, but be very curious and be very observant about food.
+
+[42:10] And that's, you know, what you really, what you really need to do. The 2nd part of it is you have to make friends in the food world. That's the sad truth. You know, you could sit around and be, you know, know a lot and do a lot. And if you don't have friends, it's hard to network and
+
+[42:25] get an actual job where someone will pay you. And so luckily nowadays, it's a lot easier with the
+
+[42:32] internet to get to know people and to become more known in these kinds of subjects because the subject matter, people, it's a very small group who, you know, care about technology cooking, but
+
+[42:41] it's, you know, you can kind of get in touch with them more than you used to. But of course, the bar is higher than it was, you know, let's say
+
+[42:48] six, uh, 6 years ago when I started, um, you know, doing this 5 years ago when I started working at the French culinary, there were fewer people who were known for doing it and the
+
+[42:57] barred entry was lower. Um, so anyway, that's what I recommend, cook a lot, uh, get to know some people in the food world uh, and, you know, eat a lot and cook a lot. That's basically the answer. And while we get to it, he says, thank you for putting your experimentation online. It's been a pleasure reading about them and hopefully I can try some of them eventually. Again, thank you for the compliment. And I will say, we apologize. Yet again, for the lack of posting we've had recently recently. We've been very busy, very, very, very busy and working on some new ventures. So, um, I am now officially March 1st, going to basically be starting my own consulting company,
+
+[43:35] which is we've been working on, which is why we haven't been posting so much. I'm still going to be the director of culinary technology at the French Culinary Institute. I'm still going to be teaching classes, and I'm still going to be maintaining cooking issues as the French culinary
+
+[43:49] institutes cooking blog. And you'll be happy to note people who bother me about not posting that I will be contractually obliged to write one post a week or at least for a month.
+
+[43:58] But it allows us to do some other fun stuff. Like we can take on outside people if they want to work, do stuff for cooking issues. So if there's someone out there who is doesn't mind getting beaten down, because we'll beat you down, doesn't mind, uh, you know, who's a complete
+
+[44:13] perfectionist, uh, when it comes to like thinking about things, right? You know what I mean? Right? Nostalgia? I mean, I'm a pain in the butt. You are a pain in the butt. Yeah, but you know, if you like the style, right? And if you think the way that we think, you know, then maybe, you know, if it doesn't bother you spending, you know, a zillion years worried about
+
+[44:33] what's going on inside of a corn kernel during next normalization, well, you know, maybe, maybe, and you want to do this for
+
+[44:39] a little to no remuneration, maybe you too could work with cooking issues. And that's this week's cooking issues. We hope to hear from you next week.
+
+[44:53] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[45:11] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. All twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
+
+[45:31] radio network.
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+[0:00] Sometimes, just getting through the day feels like a lot, and when you're overwhelmed, reaching out for help can feel impossible. You may wonder if it will even make a difference. Here at Rogers, we meet you in that moment, with personalized care for anxiety, OCD, heating disorders, depression, and substance
+
+[0:16] use one step at a time, with compassion and support. At Rogers behavioral health, one step can change everything. Visit RogersBH.org, or call 800-767-4411 for a free
+
+[0:28] screening.
+
+[0:35] Vicious, fish, vodka. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, and we're here with Nastasia de Lopez Hammer, just phoned back from Miami just this morning. Call in all of your questions too. Nastasia, give them the number. 718. Uh-huh. Brutal. 718-497-2128. That's 718-49721. 28. Hammer the Nastasia Lopez, huh? I know it. I know. She doesn't even have our number in her brain, huh? Anyway, coming to you live for the next 45 minutes or so. Today's episode is brought to you by Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range,
+
+[1:21] all natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. Since 1865, which is a long time ago, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.hearstranch.com. We've had their beef and it's quite good, right, Nastasia? Yes Dave. All right. So, um, we actually, I got back, what, yesterday? Day before yesterday, Nastasia just got back. We were at the Miami South Beach Food and Wine Festival. I was doing a thing Majig for the Liberty Science Center, which is having an exhibition on cooking, which is going to open up in the fall, the science of cooking, which is going to be very interesting.
+
+[2:02] Chris Young from the new Modernist Cuisine Cookbook was doing it with me and we were basically fluffing for the Food Network stars, you know, like Guy Fieri and Rachel Ray and Tyler Florence and, you know, the Ace of Cakes and Giada and all these people were coming out to do a show for the kids and their parents and we would sit there and do some
+
+[2:21] science questions. fluff them up a little bit. But it was fun. We had a bunch of little kids ask us about liquid nitrogen. I had a kid ask me if Agar Agar was a chemical. I was so Jack, someone asked me that question. I got to go off on one of my favorite tangents about how, you know, a cow was a bag of chemicals, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, so it was a lot of fun. But the most important part of the entire thing was that we got to visit some rare fruit places, tropical fruit places in
+
+[2:47] South Florida. So those of you that know me know I'm kind of a temperate fruit nut. Nastasia and I have gone sampled pears at the Kent, at the Broguedale, a couple 100 varieties. I've done a couple 100 varieties of apples at the Geneva Station, the agricultural experiment station up in upstate New York. Anyway, I'll go anywhere to sample a whole boatload of temper fruits. We've done semi-tropical stuff. Nastasia and I did citrus. you know, almost a year ago at Gene Lester's ranch out in Watsonville, California, a couple
+
+[3:19] 100 varieties there. We only tasted 100 though, you know, so anyway. But we've never done full on hardcore tropical fruit. South of Miami, right at the very tip of Florida and Southgate, there are 2 places we visited that are simply amazing and worth a visit.
+
+[3:36] One of them is the Fairchild. Now, Fairchild has been a garden for a long time that has many, many different varieties. They store many different varieties of tropical fruits, citrus, and otherwise. We visited not their show garden, but their kind of actual tree garden.
+
+[3:49] Unfortunately, most of the stuff we wanted to taste there, like mangoes and jackfruits aren't in season right now. So we're going to have to go back and we are going to go back. Chris Young, Nastasia, Harold McGee and I are going back to there in July to the mango festival, and we're going to, we're going to eat mangoes until we die or they kick us out of the park, one of the
+
+[4:06] two, and jackfruit, because they also have, I think, like 75 varieties of jackfruit, which we're going to, you know, eat until we're all jacked up, as they say.
+
+[4:13] But the 2nd place that you need to visit, less well known in South Dade, is the fruit and spice park, the Miami Dade County fruit and spice park. And we had an amazing tour of that place. And they have, you just pay. I don't know what the entrance fee is. Not that much. You pay, you go in, and you can take a tour if you want, and you just eat a preposterous amount of the craziest tropical fruit. So of the stuff that we had in season, I think there's one called Japoticaba, sounds like Chupacabra, but it's not. It's chipoticaba, and it's they look like little grapes, but they taste musky and they grow on the actual bark of the tree.
+
+[4:48] So the tree, like the little tree, shrub tree is growing there and the little grapey things are growing right on the bark and it tastes kind of like a grape with a little bit of a
+
+[4:57] muskiness. Another really amazing one is Canistell, Canistell. they call like almost like a, it's similar to the Lucuma, which is the fruit that's famous in Peru that I've had shipped up kind of preserved, which I didn't like at all. Because isn't that stuff that we were given that we didn't like at all? I think that preserved stuff from, was it, Peru or Chile that we were given? Anyway, I think that was Lucuma, no? No, I just threw it out. All right. But Canistell has it almost a taste of sweet potatoes and kind of an egg custardy fruit, amazing
+
+[5:28] stuff, and it makes a fantastic ice cream. If you're in Whole Foods in South Day, by the way, you should go to get Gabby Gabby's ice cream. She makes some amazing ice cream with both canistel. And the next thing I'm about to tell you about, which is black sapote. Black sapote, they call it chocolate pudding fruit. And you cut it in half and it's dark and it looks kind of like chocolate pudding, but it's super creamy and makes it
+
+[5:48] like an, it makes, I think, an amazing ice cream. You like the ice cream, right? Noastia? Yeah, it was very good ice cream. So anyway, please, if you're ever in South Dade, go visit the Fruit and Spice Park. And if you're from Miami and you've never been to the fruit and spice park. You should just jump out of your window right now. If you're spending all of your time, like, you know, being all pumped
+
+[6:06] and tan on South Beach, like a moron, you should get out of there and go to the fruit and spice park because it's a lot more rewarding. I have to say the whole South Beach thing, not my style about you, Nastasia, did you enjoy the actual South Beach? No, I don't like South Beach very much. No? All right. Now, on to the questions. So, from a couple weeks, oh, by the way, the reason I missed last week's show, I was in Seattle, actually Bellevue, Washington at the lab of Nathan Mirvold, the Microsoft billionaire Food Nut, who, along with Chris Young and, you know, 13 other people, have the past 4 or 5 years been tolling toiling away at the modernist cuisine cookbook, which I believe is just released now, actually shipping now from
+
+[6:49] amazon.com. So you and about 450 of your closest friends, that means $450, can go on Amazon and purchase,
+
+[6:57] you know, the modernist cuisine, which is, I think, 6 volumes or something like that. You know, I know some of the stats from visiting them, it weighs like £40, you know, £4 of it is ink. It's got like, you know, the greatest ink ever made. There's only like 2 factories on earth, 2 printing houses on earth. can do the printing that they that they can do. Anyway, it's amazing cookbooks. So I flew out there to Seattle to have a dinner at Nathan's lab. Uh, and uh, it was, it was, it was really, it was awesome, awesome experience. We, uh, I'll probably, will probably blog about it if I ever have time. Remember, for those of you that are angry at me for not writing more blog
+
+[7:34] posts, starting tomorrow, I'm contractually obliged to have a post a week. So, you know, you have that to look forward to anyway. Dave, we got an email question. An email question. All right. Well, after the, I'll read it during the break and then we'll, well, I'll see whether I know the answer to it. So the, um, So anyway, so I'm sitting there at the place and the taxi that's supposed to come take me to the
+
+[7:54] airport. I missed, didn't come. So came like 20 minutes late, had problem insecurity. missed my airplane back to New York by one minute and slept in the Seattle airport because I was too pissed off and tired to actually go back to
+
+[8:08] anyone's anyone's house or anything like that. I later found out that all of our friends, you know, had stayed on at the dinner and partied till 4
+
+[8:17] AM while I was busy being pissed off in the airport, but there you have it. Anyway, so, um, on to the questions. A couple weeks ago, someone called in, I believe, and said, what's going on in preserved
+
+[8:28] lemons? What is it that causes them to, you know, be preserved and, you know, what is it? It's probably, is it a bacterias or whatever? And I didn't know the answer. I was, you know, wholehearted, you know, whole full on stumped. And the answer, I forget the name of the person who called in. But the answer is yeast. So I looked online for it, and it is a couple strains of yeast that are involved in the preserved lemons that can survive the saltiness of that environment and give the preserved
+
+[8:52] lemons their characteristic flavor. I then conferred with Harold McGee when I saw him out at the, when I saw him out at the, at the Nathan Mirville dinner, and he agreed
+
+[9:01] that, yes, he had heard it was a yeast, and it makes sense to him. So that's the answer. It is yeast. Okay. Now, on to the 1st of this week's questions. Josh, from Somerset, England writes, and he says, I was very interested in the article on rapid infusion on the cooking issue site. What I'd like to know is, can the, what are we supposed to say? ISI or EC? ECD. EC. What I'd like to know is, can the EC soda siphon be used to do the technique instead of the whipper? Quite simply, I've wanted both for a long time, but can only really justify getting one or the other because of money and space,
+
+[9:36] et cetera. What are the advantages and disadvantages? Is it best to use a one liter or a half liter for home use? And he pumps us up and says the technique is genius. I wish I could tend the fundraiser, discover more things like this. Keep up the good work. Well, thank you very much for the kind words. And if you can only buy one. In fact, if you can only buy two, just get the just get the whippers. I wouldn't bother getting the soda siphons. The soda siphons are really specialized, and most of the time when we're doing, 1st of all, soda siphons have a very thin
+
+[10:04] neck. So it's hard to get a lot of stuff into them. Second of all, soda siphons. They draw from the bottom. So really they're only good if you're like a big 3 Stooges fan and you like to spray people in the face with seltzer or if you're going to keep the seltzer in the bottle for a long time
+
+[10:19] and keep it in the fridge, most of the techniques we do, I'm pouring all of the stuff out right away.
+
+[10:24] And I find that you can actually lose quite a bit of the carbonation as you spray out through the spray head on
+
+[10:29] one of those siphons. So for a number of reasons, even if I was going to carbonate with one of those things, I would never carbonate with the soda siphon, I actually carbonate with
+
+[10:38] the with the with the whipper. The only difference is that, you know, you have to shake it more to get the CO2 in, right? If you really wanted to, wanted to make it act more like a soda siphon, as you put the cartridge in, you could hold it upside
+
+[10:53] down, and then the CO2 would rock it through the drink as it goes up, which is basically all
+
+[10:57] the only thing that soda siphon's accomplishing for you. Soda siphon is also harder to clean. So I would only buy whippers. I would even carbonate, like I say, if you were going to carbonate in one of those, which I don't really recommend, but if you're
+
+[11:08] gonna do that, I would carbonate in the whipper. So I would buy only whippers. I think they're just a superior superior product all around the cream whippers. Now, as to the one liter or the half liter, uh, for home use,
+
+[11:23] like if you're going to do a lot of drinks, then I would get the, and you're going to carbonate them, I would get the liter. If you're gonna be doing a lot of rapid infusion, you're just gonna go through a couple more chargers. Either that or you're going to have to infuse into more product if you have if you have the liter one. So, you know, we write all of our recipes for the half liter ones because we're doing lots of
+
+[11:42] tests, um, and they don't scale exactly. So you can use either one, but just be aware that if you use a
+
+[11:48] liter whipper with a smaller amount of product in it. You're going to have to probably throw an extra charger into it. So you're going to have the expense of using extra chargers if you're using the leader as opposed to the half liter. But both will work. What do you think? What do you think about that? That's a good answer, yeah. All right. Josh also says, uh, PS. I love James Brown as much as the next guy, but surely you've got another CD you can play. Well, it's interesting you should say that, Josh, because someone else
+
+[12:14] email just the same week and said that they enjoyed the James Brown because it's exactly in sync with their treadmill as they're listening to the podcast.
+
+[12:25] So now I've got a 4 and an against on the James Brown. I could come up with a different James Brown song, perhaps. Or I could possibly move to something a little less funky, like a Merle Haggard or something like this. I'm not sure. What are your thoughts, Nastasia? Should we stick with the James Brown? I didn't know we were allowed to change our middle theme. Maybe we're not allowed to change our theme music, but we can change our middle music. I don't know. what do you think? What are your thoughts? Any thoughts? No thoughts. No thoughts? Nostach is too tired coming in off of the... You answer your own question. Well, not answering my questions. What do you mean? I had a question. You're just sitting there staring into space. I don't know if you're about to have an answer or if you're in a catatonic state over here. Nastasia literally had to get up at O Dark 30 this morning and she's pounding coffee as we speak, trying to text all the people that were texting her when she was on a plane and like in
+
+[13:12] in Super Spaceland. So I have to answer her questions for her because she looks to be frank stunned. Anyway, okay. Cho, and I don't know, I assume that's a last name, Cho, writes in. That's 1st name? Cho? Okay, Cho writes in, and in all caps, by the way. So Cho seriously wants an answer. What temperature should I poach an egg at? Okay. Joe, this is a, I'm assuming you have an immersion circulator, which I'm sure most of our, you know, listeners know. An immersion circulator is something that keeps the temperature of water exactly accurate. You can buy one at William Sonoma. We love them, et cetera, et cetera. So what temperature you should cook the egg to really depends on what you're looking to
+
+[13:54] do. The lowest temperature we ever cook in A2 is 62 degrees Celsius, which is 143 and a half in Fahrenheit land. And that is a runny poached egg. Okay? So that's like, you know, you're going to put on eggs Benedict, whatever. You cook it in the shell for an hour. You can actually get away with 45 minutes, but you know, you cook it an hour. And then after that hour, you drop the temperature down to like 60 or 59
+
+[14:20] degrees and then it can sit there for hours and hours and hours. And then when the time comes, you just crack the egg out and the thin white separates from the thick white and you have a perfectly poached egg.
+
+[14:28] If you're going to serve it as is and you want it to look a little more white to look a little brighter white and well done, you can put it through simmering water on its way out to service.
+
+[14:37] Now, That is going to be 95% of all the eggs you do. If you want a little bit creamier in the inside, you don't want it runny, then you cook it to 63 degrees Celsius, which is 145.5 for an hour on the dot, and then you lower
+
+[14:52] the, uh, these are for large eggs, large chicken eggs, then you lower the temperature down to 60 again, and that is a creamy egg yolk.
+
+[14:59] It still will run, but it's very, very creamy. Good for a consomme. If you want it just set, but still very soft and creamy, 64 Celsius, 147 Fahrenheit is
+
+[15:09] what you should go. If you want also for an hour. If you want something that is kind of like a hard-boiled egg, but not, then I would put it in simmering water for like 4 minutes, 5 minutes, something like this, then put it into 70 degrees Celsius water, 158 Fahrenheit for about an
+
+[15:29] hour, and the yolk will be perfectly yellow and creamy.
+
+[15:33] It won't smell like an overcooked egg and you'll have a perfect hard boiled egg. If you want a interesting thing. Herve Tise, who writes a lot of books on the science of cooking, all of them, I think, bad and wrong.
+
+[15:46] Uh, he, uh, and by the way, Tisa spelled this. If you're looking for it, don't write T-E-E-S, in the Google, write Erve, this, because that's how he spells his name. Erve Tis has written and said that the 65 degrees Celsius, 149 degrees Fahrenheit is the perfect kind of poached egg, because, and this just goes to show you how little he thinks about things.
+
+[16:07] He puts his eggs in the or I was told this by someone who saw him run the experiment. He puts his eggs in what he calls a very highly calibrated oven. Now, anyone who's ever cooked an egg in a circulator knows that 65 degrees Celsius is not
+
+[16:20] a runny egg. And it's because there's evaporative cooling out of the eggshell. In fact, you can use this. You can do Maillard reaction humming eggs in the oven by cooking them in the shell in the
+
+[16:32] oven, and as they evaporate, the alkalinity of the egg goes up and they go, they undergo browning reactions in the oven, even without a pressure cooker.
+
+[16:40] So the evaporative cooling alone is enough to drop the temperature of the egg as it's cooking by about 2 or 3 degrees to get a runny egg
+
+[16:49] yolk. And so, airveitis, chew on that one. In fact, he did a demo at the French Culinary Institute 5 years ago, and he had
+
+[16:58] to set up a bunch of circulators to cook us eggs, and he said all of these eggs are 2 degrees off. And the reason is it's because he did all of his initial tests in an oven, just goes to show you what he knows. Anyway, let's go to our 1st commercial break, calling all your questions too. 718. What is it? 497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking issues. So much bone, brother. How you feeling, man? I call your name. I don't want people to know you're in, yeah. How you feeling, Bella? Hey, jam, you're getting down. Look at him. We're gonna have a fun, good time. We gonna have a fun, good time. We're gonna have a fun good time. We're gonna have a bunk, good time. Take 'em up, Fred. We've gotta take you high.
+
+[18:00] All right. I'm gonna do it again. You wanna do it again? Gotta take it high.
+
+[18:10] Brother? Now I want everybody. Left red, blowing my 2 courses. And then I want to wave in, let's go and fill that with dinner now, all right? I'm gonna get that fella with a little horn over there. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to the speakeasy every Wednesday at 3 p.m. where hosts Damon
+
+[18:35] Volte will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid
+
+[18:40] universe, with guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between.
+
+[18:49] Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, bar history,
+
+[18:53] distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[19:15] So, uh, the email question uh, came in and said that when I when I was in Seattle, did I get a chance to visit Armandino
+
+[19:20] Batali's, um, Salumi place and where do I rank him in kind of American ham producers?
+
+[19:26] Now, this is an interesting question. So Armandino Batali is, in fact, Mario Batali's dad. He was a really interesting case because he used to be a chemical engineer, I believe at Boeing, but I can't remember. I interviewed him a number of years ago for an article I was doing on House Cured Meats
+
+[19:44] at Food Arts magazine. And he, as a scientist, is very, like, you know, very keyed into safety and proper techniques and a really interesting guy, but I've only ever had his products at, um, at some
+
+[20:00] Batali restaurants. I didn't get a chance to go there when I went out. I wish I had had the time. I would have been in and out had I made my airplane. Instead, I was in and stayed, you know, stayed over, unfortunately, in the airport. So I didn't get a chance to try, basically, any of the really interesting places out there. with the exception of Nathan Mirville's, which was quite interesting. Um, so, uh, I don't really, I, I wish I had more to, more to say on it. The one thing I will say is as far as I can tell, and I've never had his famous lamp prosciutto either. But as far as I can tell, he's not doing an American style of product. He's doing more of an Italian style of product. And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't try to rank him alongside
+
+[20:40] of American producers, you know, like Sam Edwards or Alan Benton or Nancy
+
+[20:48] Mahaffey, which Nancy Mahaffey is from Colonel Newsom's or, you know, people of that, of that nature or like Finchville Farms. I mean, they, these are what I consider American products are making American country hams, which I consider to be fundamentally different from
+
+[21:02] European style products. The, you know, the, the temperature that they're, that they're done at is different. American hands are typically aged in a much higher temperature after they go through their equalization process. So, I just, I wouldn't rank them. I wouldn't rank them together, but the products of his that I've had, I thought were very, very good. Um, so next time I go out to Seattle, I will be sure to have, uh, some, I'll be sure to go to the site and have a whole boatload of uh, Armandido
+
+[21:31] Patelli's products. Okay, so I had a question come in that says, I'm interested in cooking steak sous vide, but I have a question on searing methods. It is obviously possible to use a super hot skillet, grill, or broiler. Uh, you forgot deep fryer, which is my favorite way to do it, um, to uh, sear, but what about a blowtorch? At focus points, it can reach a much higher temperature than any of the other techniques, meaning more pink
+
+[21:52] inside and crispy, more caramelized outside. When you say caramelized, I'm assuming you mean my yard because it's not actually caramel, but, you know, we all say caramelized. I'm just saying in case anyone's a stickler. In case Jeffrey Steingard never listens to this, he'll call up and scream if I don't say that. So, you know, that's the only reason I'm saying it. Also, this might be a way to achieve even my art reaction on meats that are not of uniform, thickness or dimensions. A 3rd advantage is that if searing is taking place before the water bath, then a more shallow searing depth would cause the meat to contract less, opening the
+
+[22:19] way for non-traditional cuts of meat. And this comes in from Justin. Okay. Now. He also says that could you use some welding equipment? And if so, what kind of welding equipment would you use? Now, here are my thoughts on torches. First of all, when we're searing, of course, we see her before and after, and the reason we see her both before and
+
+[22:38] after is, we see her before to kill some of the bacteria on the outside. We're talking about low temperature cooking, by the way. So you cook something to the temperature you want it. So if I'm cooking a steak to 130 degrees Fahrenheit, I have a water bath
+
+[22:49] at 130 degrees Fahrenheit, and the steak is perfectly cooked all the way through. It means great technique. Typically, I would sear it beforehand to start crust development, start flavor development, kill bacteria on the outside. By the time it comes out of the water bath, the crust is gone, and so you sear it again to put a nice crust on it. The trick is when you're searing it, as Justin says, you need a very high temperature because you don't want to overcook the meat.
+
+[23:11] So the way I usually do that is by dropping the temperature of the
+
+[23:15] bath a bunch. So if I'm cooking at 55, I'll drop the bath to 50 degrees Celsius for like 30 minutes before I sear
+
+[23:22] it so that I drop the whole temperature down and I can sear it really hard without overcooking the meat. And that's in general how I accomplish it. Here are my thoughts on torches in general. First of all, I wouldn't go and use, if you mean by welding equipment, straight up acetylene. I wouldn't use acetylene because if your mix is not exactly, 1st of all, acetylene's ridiculously hot. absurdly hot. There's a famous guy when they were building the spirit of St. Louis, you know, Lindbergh's airplane. The guy at Ryan Air. Ryan was the company that built the Spirit of St. Louis. He used to cook fish with acetylene torches on pieces of aluminum. And by all accounts, they tasted god awful, like fuel. I have never cooked with acetylene, although I have a torch somewhere. I haven't fired up the acetylene in a long time, but my feeling is acetylene probably wouldn't be a good call.
+
+[24:10] Now, the commercially, most people use propane and butane torches.
+
+[24:17] Now, the problem with propane and butane torches is that if unless you have a special source of the gas, they add odorants, things that smell to
+
+[24:25] them so that you can smell if there's a leak, right? And typically they're adding either methyl or captain, or ethylmer captain, or some group of mercaptains, also known as like
+
+[24:33] methyl. These are they're sulfur containing compounds. You can smell in very minute quantities. If they're not completely combusted, right? They tend to stink up your product and you have what we call torch taste, right? Now, the more fat there is on a product, right? The more you can smell, the torch taste. So things that aren't very fatty tend not to pick up a lot of torch taste, but things that are high in fat tend to pick up a lot of this torch taste. Now, there are 2 ways you can get rid of torch taste. You can either use a gas that doesn't have any of these odorants in them, but they're kind of hard to find. That's why a lot of pipe, pipe, lighters and cigar lighting, butane that are very clean, butane. Those butane torches tend to smell less, because they, I think, have less of that product in them. The other thing you can do is make sure that your torch has complete combustion. So some torches are much better than others that completely combusting. Most of the torches that we use in our houses, like the propane torches aren't very good at it. And so you get a lot a lot of torch taste. You can take and fire that torch through a grid, heat up the grid, and then that
+
+[25:38] will basically enhance the combustion of these things and cause you not to have a torch taste. But we use a shinois, but it tends to ruin your shinois. So I had some nicrome wire, and that also works, but then you got to go buy some nicrome wire. Chris Young of the modernist cuisine cookbook. I was asking him about it. He uses map gas, MAPP gas. I don't know if they add an odorant to it or not, but map gas can be purchased at Home Depot. It's a lot hotter Now, if you want to go really balls out on this, right? I have used a roofing torch with a propane tank as a searing
+
+[26:10] device as a test. The problem with a roofing torch is a roofing torch will light your whole kitchen on
+
+[26:19] fire if you're not, if you're not careful. But I was able to get a complete enough combustion with a roofing
+
+[26:24] torch, such that I had no torch taste at all. I scorched the entire work surface that the thing was on. It was hard to get an even crust on it, but I did get it to work. So 1st of all, that's the 1st problem. You have torch taste. The 2nd problem is, is that I think certain Mayard reactions, you don't want it too, too hot. I haven't been able to run experiments yet to figure out what the maximum heat that you want is. But I don't think that the Mayard products you get from a hyper intense heat, like a torch, are the same as the ones you get from a more normal kind of heat. So I don't think that it's the same. And also, you don't really want just a thin layer of black on the outside of a product. For real crunchy, like really crunchy, crispy crust. You need a certain depth of cr crust formation. And if you did that with a torch, you'd have to either be very, very gentle, or you'd basically incinerate the top while you were getting that thickness of crust that you wanted. I also tend to find that torching is really uneven in terms of its distribution. So even though theoretically you can get all the pieces evenly, it's hard to get an even torch job. So if you look at a torch sear, often you'll see spots that are darker than others, which isn't as pleasant as
+
+[27:31] you could be. Now, maybe you could get around that by using something giant, but then it's easy to go overboard really quickly. So I tend to only use the torch as a touchup in areas like if you have a bird, like around the thigh area, or around like where the wings are, sometimes you can lose a little
+
+[27:47] there, and I'll do a little touchup, but I tend not to use them as my primary
+
+[27:51] searing, um, searing thing, right? Um, so anyway, that's my that's my feelings on it. Now, maybe we should go to our 2nd commercial break and I'll boot up the rest of the question. So let's go to our 2nd commercial break and we'll be back in a minute.
+
+[28:14] Give up the name of all the band. You know what? When I hear a groove like this, boo. Oh, I say, I got to get... Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Like way of young, man. Yeah, man. And thing. Look at you. Some kind of groove like this. You know? You know? No. I
+
+[28:55] need the grit.
+
+[29:03] job, job, job. Need to get down Got bit in the bread. You know, I believe, eh, every time. Brother I'm getting ready to wave y'all in. You know what? I feel so down. I need to get down in order for me to get down. I got to get in deep. In order for me to get down. I gotta get indeed. Need to get in D. Dog to be. Down, be... Here we go, down to you, get it. Ready? Boom. Come on, do it. Oh, I love that. I love it. All right. Since this is the 2nd time I've allowed to have my down D in the middle. Maybe we'll change it. So now that you guys know how awesome the down D is, you know, you can just go listen to
+
+[29:58] it on your own and we'll get a we'll get a different song for the for the thing. D, right? The down D is good. and Oates next. I'm not going to do Hall and O's Nastasia. What do you want to do? You want to do man eater? Which one do you want to do? Genesis. No, we will not do genesis. This is one thing I know we will not do. All right. No offense, no offense to Genesis fans. I mean, you know, Nastasia's more of a Phil Collins invisible touch or Sasudio kind of a kind of a girl, I think. That's my feeling on Nastasia. So calling your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Well, you know, if we're going to do Genesis. you want to do like, that's all. Remember that song? all? Sing it, no. I'm not going to sing. There's no way on Earth. I'm gonna sing it. No way. Anyway. Okay. I have a question coming in from Hawaii, I think. Aaron Melvin calls in. I assume it's from Hawaii because Aaron grows Lillikoi. And what that is is Hawaiian passionfruit. And actually, we had some delicious passion fruit down at in Miami at Gabby's farm, right? Of course, I didn't really get to taste it because Nastasia pounded the whole thing. That was such a lie. Okay, we have a rather extreme overabundance of Lilocoi in our garden. Oh yeah, and Molokai is in Hawaii, which I wish I could go. Someday we will get to go. A nice problem to have. I've recently made a little koi souffle and little koi crème brulee. Both were delicious and intensely flavored, but the texture is not perfect as the dairy was just beginning to curdle. Since the dairy is already high fat. I'm not sure where to turn to try and prevent curdling without reducing the intensity of the
+
+[31:29] liquoi. I could try mixing some cornstarch into the dairy before combination with the
+
+[31:33] Liloid juice, but would you recommend another hydrocoloid technique? Um, Certainly, in my somewhat off the cup of attempts, uh, these could have used a bit more structure or solidity. Now, you could use something like you could pre-gel the dairy or add it to add a little bit of
+
+[31:49] carraginen to it. Carragin and locust bean gum. If you add kerrogen locust bean gum, these are the same stabilizers that are used in ice creams.
+
+[31:57] I would use probably, if you don't want it too firm. I would use iota carrogen and that's going to be more puddingy. And if you want it a little firmer, You can use kappa, which is rigid. But I wouldn't use kappa actually in a high acid situation. First of all, you don't want it rigid. And 2nd of all, uh, in high acid situation, there's a possibility that there might be some carcinogenic uh, action with
+
+[32:20] carrogen at very low pH. Um, but it hasn't improved yet, but I tend to stay away from Kappa Carragin at low pH. But you could use, I think, some iota carrogene and an LBG, and that should take you somewhat closer to stopping it from curdling, but if that's not working for you, cornstarch should also prevent it from breaking, but cornstarch will definitely stop.
+
+[32:39] I know cornstarch will definitely stop egg yolks from curdling when they're overheated because
+
+[32:45] that's how Wiley makes his, that's how Wiley makes
+
+[32:49] his mayonnaise is a hollandaise sauce. He adds enough starch to the egg yolk so that he can heat it up without curdling the egg
+
+[32:57] yolks. So any of those techniques would work. So hopefully, you know, you could try one of those things and hopefully someday we can go to Hawaii and try some of these things. Anyway, he also tried to make Methasell F50 meringues with his Liloco. And we actually use regular passion fruit puree a lot. F 50 is a product that is a whipping agent. You can make mousses with it, like almost like shaving cream, very dense mousses, and they act like egg whites and they can be whipped. And so what you do is you make a meringue out of something like a puree, a passionfruit puree, let's say, or a little
+
+[33:27] quoi puree, and then you just put it on a dehydrator and you and you dehydrate them and they turn into crunchy
+
+[33:34] meringues. In his oven, because it's so humid there, they got kind of dense, not super crunchy, but then he hit it with
+
+[33:42] a Hebrew lay, the top of it to add it more crunch, and he says it makes an excellent Pavlova base, and I'm glad that worked out for you. I think that's a genuinely delicious technique. He also says, he was glad to hear our thoughts on chocolate tempering from 2 weeks ago.
+
+[33:56] Have we ever experimented with sous vide tempering. So, basically, the idea is, um, by the way, yes, it works. There are people that do it. I haven't done it. So what you can do is, instead of if you have chocolates in old school traditional tempering techniques, assume, like, you know, where you, where you, um, you know, where you have to go through a bunch of different
+
+[34:14] steps, are for taking chocolates, not in temper and bringing it into temper. If you have chocolate that is already in temper and you just want to melt it and keep it in temper, then you can just throw it in a sous vide bag,
+
+[34:28] back it down, throw it in water, and set it exactly the melting point you want, and it's
+
+[34:34] going to work fine. You can also actually do the temperature ramps in a bag by moving them around if you wanted to. The one issue with
+
+[34:42] it, and people do this and they can keep it in temper a long time because the temperature is very accurate within a couple tenths of a degree. The problem is you got to make sure that when you take it out, that you take it out and you don't get any water
+
+[34:51] and the chocolate off the bag because there's a lot of it's easy to mess things up that way. So I would put it into something that's easy to get something out of. Like, I would seal your chocolate into a pastry bag instead of into a regular bag, um, when you're when you're working. But yes, it would be a basically an attention free way of doing it. Okay, pepperoni Bill, which is an awesome name. I haven't gotten a chance to check out pepperoni Bill's website yet, but pepperoni Bill
+
+[35:14] is, it's got to be one of the better names, like one of the better handles that people use on the
+
+[35:18] internet. They still say handle or is that only from the CB era? I think that's from the CB era, because I don't know what it is. Hey, you know what? Speaking of CB era, what if we move to convoys as our song? No? No? I love convoy. Anyway, Pepperoni Bill, basically just a comment, he says, love the show. James Brown music is perfect sync with his treadmill walk. So he's the he's the James Brown lover. He'll be at the Pizza Expo in Las Vegas, March 1st through third. Just wonder if you guys had any plans of attending. If not, we'll have to meet some other way. Maybe you can come to my pizza joint someday when I finally open one. Well, seeing as how it is March 1st right now, and we were not in the Pizza Expo in Las Vegas, no, but we hope that you were having an excellent time at the
+
+[35:57] Pizza Expo. I wish I could be at the Pizza Expo because I love myself some pizza, but I've also never been to Vegas. you? Yeah, it's bad. You wouldn't like it. I wouldn't like it. No, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm weird that way. Anyway, so pepperoni Bill, let us know how it is. Okay, Alan from DC writes, and been a fan of the podcast for a while as a fan of food science, and he's decided it's time to start playing with some of the fun techniques that we talk about. He has the ability to build a basic immersion circulator, but wanted to know my thoughts on what is needed. His understanding is that he needs a heat source, a simple fan, and a control feedback loop. So he says, control loops are fun. I can handle that. What I want to know is how exact the temperature needs to be. And what kind of fluctuations might be allowed? Are there interesting recipes that require changing the temperature partway through the preparation and how precisely rapidly do these changes need to be? Any other thoughts on what my circulator needs to do, Alan from DC? Now, uh, okay, so it's not a fan you need. If you want to build an immersion circulator. I mean, if you want to build your own temperature loop, that's great, but everyone uses basically what's called PID control, paid control, which is
+
+[37:05] proportional integrative and derivative control, right? And this control loop technology,
+
+[37:12] basically this control algorithm, it allows you to go directly up to the temperature and not overshoot it, not porpoise
+
+[37:18] around like a bang bang does, right? And very, very few people write their own control loops. If you're good with a microprocessor, You can look up, um, someone for the Arduino wrote code to
+
+[37:32] do, uh, um, PID loop, um, for his coffee maker, and you can look up on the web under
+
+[37:38] Sylvia, PID, Arduino, and there's code out there that you can write to help you write code to do it, but that's the only really method that people use
+
+[37:46] accurately because it needs to not fluctuate around. So you don't want to use an on-off temperature control. You want to use PID, PID. The other thing is, it's not a fan that they use. Most people, when they're building their own, you can buy a small pump, you can buy a small pump that, you know, like one that's actually used in a circulator, but the vast majority of people use aquarium pumps.
+
+[38:08] And you can either bubble air in, which moves, just moves around by bubbling air or you can actually pump water. And if you look online, there, the pump that people use to do recirculated mash RIMS for brewing. There's a lot of, there's a couple of cheap pumps in the like $15 range that can handle it and can handle the temperatures and can pump a good amount of liquid because you need it to move around a lot.
+
+[38:27] The other thing is you're going to need, um, all the commercial circulators are a 1000 watts. Um, there are a 1000 watts. So you're going to want about a 1000 watts of heating. More heating is not going to hurt you. The problem is, if you go over a 1000 watts. You going to have to make sure that you have a plug that can handle it, right? So all the circulators that are built are basically built to go into a standard 15 amp plug. And once you go, you know, over a 1000, you're going to have to start worrying about it. But if you have your own plug, you can make it as powerful as you want, and then it's going to go up and down a lot faster. It's going to be a lot more responsive. And so, like, these are the kinds of things that you need to, uh, these are the kind of things you need to to do. I would I would say that you want your temperature to be within a couple of
+
+[39:12] tenths of a degree. In terms of, okay, so there's 2 things. There's accuracy, accuracy, and there's precision, right? So the question is how accurate do you need to be? You need to be within about 3 tenths, I'd say, of a degree Celsius, accurate and precise. Okay, so accuracy is
+
+[39:28] like how close are you to what the temperature you really want and precision is, how often can you repeat it? And as long as your accuracy is within like 3 tents, you'll be able to recreate other people's recipes. Now, your precision should be dead on, like a 10th of a degree or so, because there's no reason for it not to be. you know, a PID loop can do easily that. And that way your recipes, even if you're not accurate, even if you are wildly off, accuracy wise, if it's precise, if you can repeat it again and again, then you're good to go.
+
+[39:56] And that's why, you know, speak to Philip Preston, who is the, you know, the guy who builds the circulators that we use from
+
+[40:02] polycience, um, he says, yeah, like even the old uh, analog ones are extremely precise. Like once you set the knob on the analog one, it's going to hit the same temperature all the time and stay there with very, very, very high degree of precision.
+
+[40:16] It's just not accurate. So you have to use a 2nd thermometer to judge exactly where you are because it doesn't have a readout
+
+[40:23] on, um, it doesn't have a readout on exactly how, uh, you know, how hot it is. So those are my thoughts on building your own thing. Now, I've built many, many of these in my time. What I used to do was I would get like an, you know, they were all bad. Let's put it this way. I've built like 3 or 4 of them and I now use the polyscience one just because the homebrew ones are always, how to put this, a little bit of a pain in the butt,
+
+[40:53] right? Now the, Philip, uh, well, I see. So there's, when I was doing it, whenever I do anything, it's totally ghetto, spit, bubble gum,
+
+[41:01] ridiculous. Like, so what used to happen with me is I would get shocked. I didn't build one once where I used a bunch of those coffee heaters. It costs like 2 bucks that you get at the dollar store, even though it's at the dollar store. They cost 2 bucks. Anyway, you throw them into the thing, you throw a bunch of them in. And then when you go in to get your eggs out of the circulator. You know what happens? Yeah, you get shocked, like really badly shocked. You know what I mean? So that one was out the window. I built another one where, you know, I bought like a heater for like 20 bucks off a McMaster car. And but it's just like now I have like wires sitting everywhere and like, you know, now that I have kids in my
+
+[41:35] house. I didn't want them running around with like these wires out everywhere. But this is because I'm a moron and all I care about is functionality. There are people out online. If you search like the make community or the instructible community or any one of these DIY sites, there are people that know exactly what like plastic
+
+[41:50] box, like, you know, they're like, go buy the Rubik's cube. Not, you know, it's got to be this Rubik's cube, because it's got the exact size box for the parts that they want, and
+
+[41:57] they can whomp together one for, you know, under a 100 bucks, I think, is the current going rate for everything you need, including, by the way, a pre-made PID controller with digital readout. In case, you know, in case you value your time and don't want to write your own code, you can now get one of these controllers for, I think, like 35 bucks.
+
+[42:15] And they work, they work like gangbusters. The only other thing I'd say is when you're buying one and you're going to have to control the heater and there's 2 ways you can go. You can go with a regular relay, but the regular relay is going to sit there
+
+[42:28] going, click, click, click, click. I hate that. So I go for what's called a solid state relay, and solid state relay,
+
+[42:36] uh, is completely dead silent, and you can run it at whatever rate you want, and it never ever wears out, but they are more expensive. So instead of like 4 bucks, 5 bucks. You're going to spend like 20 bucks, something like that. 20 bucks 20 bucks. But anyway, I would say go get the one for 20 bucks just because that extra $20 for that little bit of silence in your kitchen instead of having
+
+[42:55] to click, click. Let me put it this way. My stove, right? Can't run off a solid state relay, uh, relay because I'm actually opening and closing a solenoid valve for my, uh, for my, I'm actually closing a solenoid valve for my gas, and it's irritating because it's like, click, click, click. But luckily, most of the time I'm running my oven, I'm making pizza, go to go back to pepperoni
+
+[43:15] bills, pizza question. I'm making pizza, and so I have it on full bore blastout modes so I can get it up to 850 degrees and, you know,
+
+[43:23] light, light everything on fire, basically. Okay, so on my way out, I will say that you should all, I wish that everyone had the money to go
+
+[43:34] buy Nathan Mirvold and Chris Young's new modernist cuisine book. They've already sold well over half of the initial printing and they've ordered another printing on it. It is a pretty cool book. I am extremely jealous. I visited their lab. They have a waterjet cutter, a crazy waterjet cutter. Like, they have a scanning electron microscope. And by the way, Nathan has one at his house too, in case he should want to do, in case, you know, he doesn't want to have to go into the office and do a scanning electron
+
+[44:01] microscopy, you know, he can do a scanning electron microscopy at home, you know? You know, you know, he, they have a crappy, awesome, like, you know, regular light microscope at the office because he wanted to keep his good one at
+
+[44:13] work. So, I don't know. Anyway, extraordinarily jealous of the equipment they have. But we had a really good time out at the meal there. And I'm sure you'll be seeing about it. You know, it's on Wired magazine. I think a lot of the things you can see, the kinds of things they were doing in the meal. Oh, and I had their ultrasonic French fries. So Josh Zerski, who, you know, he writes things, right? He writes things. Joshua Zirski. Yeah I don't know. Yeah, anyway, so he writes things. So he came back and he says, yeah, he said, he hasn't taught that. Well, actually, he does kind of talk that way. Yeah. So he goes, you know, you got to, you know, Nathan Mirvold, and, you know, Chris Young's ultrasonic French fries, the world's greatest French fries. So I had the ultrasonic French fry. The ultrasonic french fry was quite good. And I spoke to Nathan. They've done the SPL. He likes somebody, likes the ultrasonic one better. But I have not yet published. I want you guys to know this. On the blog, I have published my 3/8 inch SPL. That's my enzyme that I use recipe. I will place up. I mean, his French fry was very good. And I'm saying. But I will place my new half inch because he was a half inch French frog guy. I will place my half inch French fry up against it. Uh, and we should also try maybe his ultrasonic technique along with RSPL technique to see whether we can do the double ridiculous Wandamula of
+
+[45:29] like uh, of monstrosity French fry madness because that might be the French fry to kill all French fries.
+
+[45:35] But remember, there is no such thing as the perfect French fry because French fry is something that can always be improved. All right? And that's cooking issues. We'll see you next week.
+
+[45:50] Vicious, fish, and vodka. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[46:11] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. And the guest can't get it straight. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Foods USA. In late March, Dan, Andrea Patrick, and the Heritage Team are traveling to the coldest reaches of the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont to help the Cantor family tap sugar maple trees.
+
+[46:38] Then the maple sap will flow down to the sugar house where it has boiled gently over a wood fire just as it has been for generations. Just a few days later, this grade A, amber syrup will be poured into the beautiful glass jugs and sent to you for pancakes, waffles, desserts, glazing hams, or just drinking by the
+
+[46:56] spoonful. There's only a limited supply, so order today. Each one liter bottle is $45, including delivery. Delivery will be at the end of March, and we will notify you of the exact shipping date. Each shipment will include a CD explaining the whole process. You can also follow us on YouTube while we work and bottle. In the meantime, you can head over to the Heritage Radio Network Archives, and listen to Linda Palaggio talk about maple syrup on her show, A Taste of the Past, episode 12.
+
+[47:23] For more information, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join wine impresarios, Aaron Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco, as they dish out on the latest industry news with winemakers and tastemakers on Heritage Radio Network's revamped wine
+
+[47:43] show, Unfiltered. Aaron Fitzpatrick, one of the 1st hosts on HRN with her program at the root of it, amps up the volume and unfiltered content with co-host Brian DeMarco in this 2011
+
+[47:54] redux. True to the original format, Erin and Brian will keep you abreast of current happenings, and break down the news and global events,
+
+[48:00] distilling complex into anecdotal stories that inspire. From media and political events to hailstorms in Argentina, no topic is out of bounds. Tune in every week to hear them chat up the industry's biggest personalities and host on-air tastings with visiting vintors and the country's hottest somoliers. Whether you're an expert or an enthusiast, unfiltered demystifies wine and lets you know what it really takes to get a bottle from the vineyard to your neighborhood wine
+
+[48:24] shop. Unfiltered Broadcast Live every Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. The following is a public service announcement from the museum of food and drink. Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a
+
+[48:41] 9 course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto Sunday, March 27th. Their intent to kickstart the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the
+
+[48:53] museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere. How will a cutting edge chef handle the Paleolithic, or a dish only using pre-Columbian ingredients? What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome? The chefs include David Chang of Momofuku, Wiley
+
+[49:07] Dufreyne of WD50, Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of
+
+[49:15] Salu Maria Rossi, Carlo Maracci of Roberta's, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina
+
+[49:20] Tozzi of Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh, Death
+
+[49:26] and Company, Simon Ford of Perneau Ricard, Damon Boltley of Prime Meats, and Ebon Clem of VR
+
+[49:32] guest restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the museum of food and drink. Tickets are very limited, and $250 per person. To purchase tickets, please visit MoFAD.eventbright.com. That's MOFAD.eventbright.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D dot E-V-E-N-T-B-R-I-T-E
+
+[49:57] dot com. Sponsored by For No Ricard, Heritage Foods USA, Pat Lafrida Meats, Barterhouse Wines, Del Posto restaurant.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by King Vineyard and Winery. Cane Vineyard and Winery supports Heritage Radio, and the growing movement to change how Americans eat, and how we think about our
+
+[0:09] planet, for more information, visit www.cain5.com.
+
+[0:21] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, the show, where you calling with all of your cooking related questions, technical or not. My name is Dave Arnold. I'm host of cooking issues here with in the studio with Nastasia,
+
+[0:34] the Hammer Lopez. Calling all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. We'll be here for about the next 45 minutes or so. So, anything, anything new, Nastasia, before we get into our daily business? No. No? All right. Well, I'm going to start with our weekly announcement about the upcoming fundraiser for the
+
+[0:55] Museum of Food and Drink, they get the ball rolling fundraiser. There are still tickets available to, I think, what's got to be one of the coolest coolest events. Well, it's the coolest event we've ever run. Of course. It's the 1st event we've ever run. But I mean, it really is kind of a special thing. Go to www.mofat, MOFAD.org, and look it up. But we have Cesare Casella from Solomario Rosi doing preserved meat. We have Dave Chang. We have Wiley Dufrane. We have Mark Ladner. We have our very own Carlo from Roberta's, Brooks Headley from Del Posto,
+
+[1:28] Nos Norin, our buddy, Christina Tozi. We have Damon Bolte from Prime Meats, Jamie Gordon from Prono Ricard. Kentagoto from Pegu Club, along with Audrey Saunders from Pegu Club, Thomas Wall from Death
+
+[1:38] & Company, and Evan Klem from BR guests, all doing museum themed cocktails. And me. going to be doing an Amuse Bouche. I'll have you know that in private, I always refer to it as a Namuz Douche, but I'm aware that it's an Amuz Bouche. amusing the mouth. I'll be doing an Amuse Bouche myself. And lucky, lucky people might taste a little bit of mana from heaven dissolved into cognac, right? Yes. It's going to be doracious. Anyway, there are still some tickets available, but buy them well, they last. It's on Sunday, March 27th at one p.m. at Del Posto Restaurant, and it's the must attend event of the season. Yes or no? Yes. Yes. All right. Okay. I'm going to attend to some of our email questions. Ben wrote in and said that I mentioned, I got a cheap PID controller and a PID controller for those of you that don't know, is a controller. Usually we control temperature, but you can control anything with it. You can control humidity, you can control anything, pressure, anything with
+
+[2:32] PID. PID stands for proportional, integrative, and derivative, and it's a control algorithm that allows you to very accurately get to a particular thing, let's say, a temperature without
+
+[2:43] overshooting without ever going over, and it just sits rock solid there. And it's become basically the norm for high-end temperature control these days. Immersion circulators have it. People make their coffee machines, have it. I mean, it's just, it's the thing to do. It used to be that you couldn't get one for a controller that is for less than a couple
+
+[3:01] 100 dollars. But recently the prices come way down. The cheapest PID controller, Ben, that I have seen comes from Aubur instruments, AUB, ER instruments, and they'll sell you a complete PID controller for about 35 bucks.
+
+[3:15] Now, I don't know if it's any good or not, but they'll send you one for about 35 bucks. I've used love controllers from Dwyer instruments. They're going to run like $89. You can get the more the higher brand name ones like Fuji or Watlow for a couple 100 bucks, but I mean, from Auburn instruments for 35 bucks, a couple dollars delivered is not such a bad
+
+[3:35] deal. They all, uh, you can get them all basically so that they plug into a 110 socket. That's not a that's not a problem. One thing I would look for with them is if you can spend a little extra money and get one with a solid state relay as opposed to a regular relay for the output, I think you're
+
+[3:50] going to be a little happier. It's going to be quieter and it's going to be longer lasting. You just want to make sure that whatever you're running, you can drive the amount of current that you need. So if you're going to be making, let's say, an immersion circulator, it's not going to need more than about a 1000 watts, so you're really not going to need more than about 10 amps through it. But you want to make sure that the controller can handle about 10 amps and then you're going to be, okay. So then I hope that answers your question. Let's go to another question. Uh, we have from Ryan writes in about creme de Violette, and I noticed
+
+[4:24] Dasher de Tess, creme de Violette. I'm actually not such a big fan myself of Prime de Violette, although I have had it. Ryan's interested in Creme de Vilette, specifically because of the cocktail, gin-based cocktail, the aviation that uses
+
+[4:36] it famously uses it. And so he says, um, regarding creme de Violette. I love the classic cocktail, the aviation, and to be properly made, this requires
+
+[4:44] crème de Violette. Sadly, my state of Ohio doesn't allow it distributed in the state at the moment. And while I'm sure I could order a bottle online and pay shipping, we're only about a month away from violet season here in
+
+[4:53] Ohio, so why not make it? I've looked for a recipe to make crème de veilette and have had no luck. Any pointers would be great, and I also see foresee the issue of the violet infusion eventually browning. So any heads up on how to avoid that would be great. Well, I looked in a bunch of recipes online. I looked at Rothman, which is one of the people that actually distribute Creme de Violet here in the States, and they claim to actually use violet flowers. But when I looked on, and I'm sure you can, basically. So then I would just take a boatload of violet flowers, macerate them in the highest proof liquor you can get in the state of Ohio. Don't use crappy, like most of the 151s that they sell on the market are
+
+[5:31] pretty, pretty crappy. If you can find one that's decent, smell it, um, taste it, I mean, sorry, not 151, uh, Everclear, 95, 95 proof. Most of these smell pretty bad. If you can find one that's decent, I recommend buying that. We buy from a lab supplier. We buy our straight booze and it's pretty, pretty high proof. But the 1st thing you're going to need is very high proof liquor. I mean, 151 really isn't ideal. That's only like 75, 75, uh, you know, percent, which isn't really very good. You're going to want at least like 85, 90. But try to find one that's good flavor, and then just basically pack that full of violet flowers, let it
+
+[6:10] macerate probably for several weeks to a month or so, and then decant it off, mix it with sugar to taste, and then water it down to whatever percentage you want. The recipe that I found in my, uh, in my old source, which is a treatise on the manufacturer and distillation of alcoholic liquors by Pierre Duplay, uh, copyright 1871, which I have a hard copy
+
+[6:31] of, but is available on uh, Google books for free to look at. Actually doesn't use violet in their creme de Violet. They use Oris root. And so Oris root is something that apparently, you know, it's a flavoring in a lot of liqueurs, but apparently has somewhat of a violet nose, violet, you know, aroma flavor to it, and was used in the old days, to make certain creme de
+
+[6:51] Violette live if they didn't have the violet flowers lying around. And so these guys basically say, take 12 liters of orris root infusion, which I guess you would make the same way that you would make the violin infusion by steeping in the highest proof liquor you can get for a long time.
+
+[7:04] Um, then 24 liters of 85% straight uh neutral grain spirits, uh, 56 kilograms of sugar, and 26 liters of water. And they actually recommend coloring it with cochineel, which is red, and blue food coloring, which they don't specify what to use.
+
+[7:21] That's probably specified elsewhere in the book. But it's interesting that they would specify coloring like that because I also found
+
+[7:28] it a 1905 Connecticut agricultural experiment station reference where they tested 5 or 6 different creme de
+
+[7:35] Violettes and found that they were all adulterated basically with dyes, with
+
+[7:39] dyes. some of which were not so savory. So, uh, I would recommend one. First thing you want to get a hold of is some high-proof spirits. Make sure they're food great, make sure they smell good. They don't have a lot of off taste because otherwise you're going to be starting with a bad base. Then if you have the iris flowers, you know, sorry, iris, don't use iris out of poison, if you have the violet flowers, just pack a whole bunch of them into the highest proof liquor, you can get and let it sit, taste it every once in a while, see
+
+[8:06] how, uh, whether it gets the color you want, then add just, like I say, add sugar to taste and water it down. There's a couple books available on homemade liqueurs that I have at home. I couldn't find them in time to provide a reference, but I'll see if I can find something else and get back to you next week. And then if not, try to order some orders root and see whether you can get an interesting flavor that way. So, uh, Ryan, I hope that helps and let us know how it works out. Um, Nick writes in with an interesting clue a pig question. My friend Mel is having a housewarming for her new house. She doesn't have a proper garden yet, which is a shame. If I had a house, I would really want a proper garden. That would be one of the 1st things. Pizza oven, outside pizza oven. A tandor buried in the ground, which is similar to the question I was about to answer, and then a garden. Those will be my 1st my 1st orders of business. Um, and maybe someday I will have one. Who knows? And she's letting me dig a pit in her backyard to cook a whole pig, like an Hawaiian
+
+[9:00] emu. it's pronounced emu. a Hawaiian basically hole in the ground oven that's used to cook Kalua pig, Kalua pig being the buried pig that you would
+
+[9:07] have delicious, I should say, buried pig that you have in a luau. Not that I've been to Hawaii. Anyone wants to fly us to Hawaii to taste tropical fruits. We are your people. Am I right, Nastasia? Right? Yeah. Never been to Hawaii. My wife was born in Hawaii, has a Hawaiian middle name. Anyway, uh, anyone in Hawaii wants us will be there. I've heard that you must use igneous rocks because other types might explode at high temperature. That sounds awesome, and it is Nick. I've tried it. That sounds awesome, but probably not a good idea, a crowded party. Also true. I'm planning on using a probe to monitor the internal temperature of the pigwell cooking, so food safety shouldn't be an issue. Okay, 1st of all, here are my tips. One, it is true that many different types of rocks explode. I used to do a bunch of experiments on basically heating rocks to throw them into
+
+[9:51] liquids to heat them up. So back in my red hot poker experimentation days, which are basically over now because we haven't pretty much settled how to do a red hot poker, right? Yeah, pretty much settled. But, you know, other than just using a red hot poker, one of the things we were using was hot stones. And so we ended up settling on using these Korean basically stones that are that are used as part of the Korean stoneware cookery, the giant gobdoles that you make that, you know, that you make
+
+[10:16] a bibin bop out of, the Tolso, I should say, that you make a bibin bop out of. And these stone bowls are, by the way, are some of the greatest things. The world, everyone should go to the local Korean supermarket and purchase at least 6 of
+
+[10:29] these, the hot stone bowls. Anyway, those things don't explode. But I've had very bad luck with regular stones, even ones that I thought were
+
+[10:37] igneous. Igneous rocks are basically volcanic rocks, the theory being they're heated so high, when they were made that there's not, 1st of all, they're not very porous, typically, unless it's pumice or something that's been
+
+[10:47] nerrated as it sprayed into the air. But they're hopefully not porous and don't have any water in them. So they won't explode when they're heated. Now, I have, the other types of rocks are metamorphic and sedimentary. So sedimentary rocks are layer rocks like sandstone and metamorphic are basically then compressed and turned into other kinds
+
+[11:04] of, turn into a denser, denser rock. I've had all of these things explode. Even an igneous rock when heated very suddenly, if it has inclusions or anything inside it, it can expand in weird ways and explode.
+
+[11:14] I've had rocks explode in the kitchen and fly completely all around over the kitchen. I did it once at the pastry, uh, in one of the pastry kitchens, the French culinary, and completely freaked out a group of pastry chefs. And, you know, plus I had to clean up the rock particles everywhere. But the good news is that you're going to be heating up those rocks well in advance because it's going to take hours and hours for this pig to cook. So you're going to be heating these rocks up well, well in advance of the party people being there. So I wouldn't worry about blowing up too much, especially if it heats fairly evenly, and it's being heated from above, which is probably how it's going to happen from the side. I wouldn't worry overly much. Like it might blow up a little bit, but, you know, you know, just don't stand with your eyeballs over a hot rock because it's warming up.
+
+[11:56] And once it's very hot, once it's been hot for an hour or so, I think mainly your risk of explosions are somewhat over at that point.
+
+[12:03] So you're going to want to align it, really, you know, get it nice and hot, and then they cover it with lots of green vegetation. The idea of being to cause steam similar to the way you would use steam in a, sorry, seaweed
+
+[12:14] in a clam bake in New England. And bear in mind, this is all theoretical knowledge, not having done it myself, hands on. And then the last thing, obviously, is you're going to want to find some nice leaves to wrap the, uh, the wrap, the pig. Now, this is something I have done, not in an oven at outside, but, you know, you
+
+[12:29] wrap. I've wrapped many pork shoulders in leaves to do my own version of
+
+[12:35] klua pig at home, and it is delicious. You want to use tea leaves if you can get them, but if you're not in Hawaii, I don't think you are, so you're probably going to want to use banana leaves, which you can get at any local
+
+[12:45] Asian, any local Asian market. So I hope this helps Nick, and I hope you have an excellent pig experience, but it should take several hours to cook. And like you said, you're going to have a temperature probe, so you're not too worried about food safety. I wouldn't worry about that either. It's going to heat up and it's going to cook to a very high temperature. You just need to keep enough liquid in there so that it doesn't dry out on you. Does that sound like a good advice, sir? Good job. All right, so let's go to our 1st commercial break and why don't you call in all your questions too? 718-497-2128? That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[14:01] You'll only come by tonight, mean a hungry time. Nothing you do, I've seen here before Watching a
+
+[14:14] wedding. Wish she's sitting with you, but her eyes are on the door. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Hot Grease every Monday at 330 p.m. Hakri strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward thinking schools of culinary
+
+[14:33] thought to the mines and kitchens of everyday folk. Each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum of food enthusiasts, from internationally renowned culinary masters to moms
+
+[14:45] on a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 330 p.m. Hot Grease on the Heritage radio network. Why don't we have a name like that? Hot grease. Sounds awesome, right? Hot grease. I like that a lot. Hot grease. All right, back to cooking issues. Call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Dave Arnold, back at you with cooking issues. And I see Nastasia has hauled out the Hall and Oates as she threatened, right? Yeah. Did you ever get to go see them in concert? No, I babysat your kids instead. That sounds probably like a better bet. I think I want to remember Hall and Oates as they once were. I think in most, no offense to either Hall or Oates, because they listen. Yeah, avid listeners. But in general, you know, I find that I prefer to remember people not on their comeback tour.
+
+[15:38] What do you think, Nastasia? I would have liked to see. Well, you're gonna go see Elton John, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Like Elton John, whatever. It's not as no judgment, no judgment. All right. Colin Gore writes in with a series of statements and questions, so I'll just go down and we'll take a look at them. Um, You mentioned, he's talking to me. Uh, you mentioned that you occasionally get an oil slick after diluting booze that lush
+
+[16:02] is like, like the Akavit that we make with caraway and fennel. And when you say loose, you know, when you're pouring, when you when you dilute something that has a lot of, that's alcoholic that has a lot of dissolved oils in it, you basically decrease the solubility of those
+
+[16:14] oils that they dilute till they pop out of solution and form a haze, like Uzo does.
+
+[16:18] It's called the ouzo effect or, you know, things that lose out. Is there a good way to stabilize that oil and booze? The oil has a lot of flavor, obviously, so I want to incorporate the slick back into the hooch. I suppose I could hold off on diluting the drink strength until right before serving, but I prefer to get the whole bottle balance in one go. Well, it's fairly rare that I actually have something where the oil will separate out on top. Most of the time, what happens is you'll get an enrichment, it won't actually fully separate, but you'll get an enrichment in the
+
+[16:43] oils in the top part of the bottle, but it'll stay somewhat in, you know, in suspension. And then you can shake the whole bottle and get it to come back together again. If you actually have a bottle that it fully separates out and you get the stuff on top and it won't shake back into a homogeneous suspension, it's not really a solution anymore, but a suspension, then I recommend,
+
+[17:03] I mean, you could go with an emulsifier, like a gum Arabic or something like this. But the problem with that is that, you know, it's going to change the body of the drink somewhat. But dumb Arabic will help to emulsify those oils somewhat and keep them in. And luckily, gum Arabic doesn't add that much viscosity to your booze. You could then, the next step up from that would be to use something that's a mixture of gum Arabic with another
+
+[17:24] stabilizer like Xanthan gum. I recommend TIC gum, saladizer, 210 S, which sounds gross, but it's basically just Xanthan, and gum Arabic, but it's
+
+[17:33] gonna definitely affect the texture of the drink, which is why I'd stay away from it unless you absolutely needed it. That's the product that we use to do, our butter syrups and our pecan syrups, and, you know, all of our sort of emulsified, um, all of our emulsified oil syrups that we put into drinks, which
+
+[17:50] are which are delicious. Anyway, that's my thoughts on that. Secondly, he asks, how far do you typically reduce your road of app port syrup? I'm running a simple VAC steel rig with a stir bar, magnetic stir bar, I'm assuming. And it's tough to estimate the vinyl vinyl viscosity of the scissor, and I appreciate the use of
+
+[18:05] sip it, sip it, simple scissor. Anyway, for all you 666 fans out there. We all have eaten so much shrimp that we get iodine poisoning. While it's warm and being agitated. Lastly, uh, last time I simply facted it till it would give uh, much, wouldn't give it much more H2O without a fight and ended up with something the consistency of more meat. It was great, but I have a hunch you use, something less viscous in the 3 cheese course. He's talking about a course where we take 3 different dessert wines. We break them into a syrup and a brandy in the roto app, throw away the water in the middle and serve these delicious syrups with the cheeses. Yeah, I take them down to the consistency approximately of maple
+
+[18:39] syrup and it is very hard to deal, especially if you're not in a road
+
+[18:43] of app. When you're dealing with a rotavap. You can stop the spinning and you can watch how it falls down and you get used to judging when it when the reduction is done based on hot. You can kind of get a feeling for what it's going to be like when it cools off. It's just by experience though. Um, you know, when I do strawberry, I take it down to, uh, you know,
+
+[19:02] I can take it. I can get the brakes fairly high, like in the in the in the 50s or 60s even. I can get the brakes up to. But the problem when you take port, especially down too low. It starts tasting a little weird and tannic sometimes when it gets too, too reduced. So I like to take it just to the edge. I also often will break the system open and just taste a little bit and
+
+[19:22] then, and then put it, put it back together again and continue running it. So I cheat just like everyone else, but it's experienced like anything else and obviously distillation and reduction under vacuum is a fine art that I wish more and more people would
+
+[19:35] learn. And speaking of TIC gums, Colin rides, thanks for helping to hook him up with TIC gums. Someone at TIC heard him ask for information on the show, and got in touch with
+
+[19:46] him, and now the head of TIC Gums. Dr. Martito is going to the University of Maryland to talk about the structural properties of
+
+[19:53] gum polymers. And Colin and Dr. Nito are holding an event this Friday at one
+
+[20:00] p.m. That's March 11th, hosted by the University of Maryland's Material Science Department. And any listeners, apparently, you have garnered an invitation, listeners, in the Maryland
+
+[20:11] area, to go to room 2108 in the Chemical Nuclear Engineering building. If you're anywhere near UMD's campus there in the
+
+[20:20] DC Maryland area, stop by. It should be a very interesting, should be a very interesting lecture. Another, as for Collins, last thing. He called in a while ago or wrote in, I forget. He was trying to get some of the astringency out of walnut liqueur because the astringency comes, obviously, from
+
+[20:35] the skins, in the walnut, and he's trying to remove the astringency by freezing the finished liquor.
+
+[20:41] The idea being that a lot of times if you take like persimmons or quince. It has a lot of tannin in it, tannic principles that are astringent. If you freeze them, those
+
+[20:50] tan is complex, basically, and become non-estringent anymore. And so it kills the tannin. He was hoping to use liquid nitrogen to do that to a bottle of finished booze. Bad news, it doesn't work. He has to go back to the drawing board and try to get and I'm going to have to quote this one. If listeners or friends of ours will know that Harold McGee has the world's greatest walnuts. We walked into his place one day and, you know, Nastasia and I, because we'll snack on anyone's crap, it's just laying out, right? We start taking his walnuts off the table and we're like, Jesus God, this is the best walnut in the world. Of course, McGee has the best damn wallets in the world. And we mentioned this on a radio show before. And so, I will leave Collins with this. He says, uh, where I got to find, I got to find his his exact quote. He says, he's going to try again, if he can get a hold of McGee's sweet, sweet nuts. It's the exact exact quote. Get a hold of McGee's sweet, sweet nuts. And wouldn't we all like to, right? Love it. Anyway, okay. Thanks for writing in. And Colin, tell us any of your any adventures and tell us how the TIC Gums lecture goes. Seth writes in with an egg tempering question. Hi, I've got a question for the cooking issue show. My question is about tempering eggs when making custard and gelato and et cetera. Is it really necessary? Basically, I've learned for years to make custard by heating the milk and then slowly incorporated the heated milk into egg yolks, bit by bit, slowly raising the temperature so they cook but don't coagulate. I question this because a friend of mine recently made an Alfredo sauce, and he simply whisked the egg
+
+[22:18] yolts into the cream beforehand while it was still cold, and then slowly raised the temperature of the complete mixture. He said that this way, this is the way his mother always made it, and it never coagulates, and it always comes out smooth and delicious. Next time I made gelato at home, I tried it that way and everything turned out fine. I heat it over a double boiler to be extra safe. So did I get lucky both times or is there any reason to do this whole temperature tempering thing in the 1st place? I'm becoming convinced that it's an unnecessary time consuming step. All right. Seth, here's the deal. I don't think there's any technical reason to heat the milk beforehand and pour it into the egg yolks except this. You want to heat, like a lot of times we're dealing with large batches, right? so you have a lot of milk that you're going to be putting into your egg yolks. So the idea is to get the milk hot first, right? So you can heat the milk up fairly quickly. You don't have to sit there, you know, tending it and worrying the whole time, right? Then you can temper it into your egg yolks and then slowly bring it up the last couple of degrees to get it cooked. So I think in actuality, when you're doing a large batch, The tempering is really a time saving procedure and not a time wasting procedure. If you're doing a smaller batch, and you're going to have to take it up and you're going to take it up slowly and you can watch the whole thing and keep it stirring as you go.
+
+[23:25] I don't think there's any need to heat the milk 1st and then temper it into the egg yolks. I think it's just a matter of convenience. If you're starting with a completely cold mixture, stirring it together, making sure it's completely
+
+[23:35] mixed, and then slowly heating it, you're not going to have any problems. I mean, but I think, uh, and so I think for smaller batches, things like an Alfredo that you can basically hold or
+
+[23:44] like a, like if you're making like something very small, then it's probably easier to do
+
+[23:48] it like you say, start from cold and heat up. But I think when you get to bigger and bigger batches, you're going to find it's easier to go the other way to heat the big batch of milk quickly up to temperature and then to temper it into your egg yolks. I hope that makes, hope that makes sense. I think I think that's the case. Someone's gonna, someone's gonna write in who's more of an expert on this. going to say, no. I get that all the time, by the way. You might not know it because those guys tend not to call the call the show. They end up like writing me later and saying that kind of thing over the email. Like, that's my just interpretation of what they say, then, since I'm just reading it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Joshua calls in with a writes in with a yogurt question. I have made yogurt 5 times with varying results. My procedure is scalding the milk and letting it cool to a round body temperature. I then stir in a couple tables spoonsful of Greek yogurt and place the whole pot in the oven with only the interior light, pilot light, light or pilot light, you think? Pilot light. Pilot light? Pilot. Providing heat. After leaving the pot, sit overnight. I place it in the fridge and strain it in, strain it until it's a little less thick than lemonade, which is
+
+[24:50] Greek strained yogurt. And the 1st 2 times were quite successful with whole milk, but since I haven't been able to recreate the
+
+[24:56] results reduced fat. Probably because reduced fat milk doesn't taste as good as whole milk. My question is, how does the fat percentage of the milk affect the final yield and thickness of the yogurt? And also, do I really need to scald the milk if it's pasteurized? Can I just combine the milk and yogurt and let it sit on the countertop for a day or so? I'm not big on checking temperatures. What's the easiest way to make authentic, uh, thick yogurt, uh,
+
+[25:17] labneh style? Okay, Joshua, here are my feelings on this. Um, I don't frankly know how the texture is going to be affected. I mean, how the thickness of it's going to be affected by the fat content, but I guarantee you that the whole milk is going to taste a whole hell of a lot better than the reduced fat stuff, especially because reduced fat milk is such crud anyway.
+
+[25:37] I mean, I really like if, it makes me so angry. Like when I see people, they use like the 2% and the one%. what are you really saving? You know, like, just don't eat as much of this stuff and just use milk to taste better
+
+[25:48] for, for, for goodness sakes. Go back to using the whole milk. What do you think, Nastasia? I completely agree. I know it, you know, like, you know, you know, seriously, instead of having 18 quarts of like one% or
+
+[26:00] skim, which is vile, disgusting puke, instead of having that in your coffee, just add a little bit less of something, delicious and satisfying, like whole milk, and good whole milk at
+
+[26:09] that, if you can get it. stuff that tastes delicious. anyway. Uh, okay, so that's my feeling on the whole milk. Now, on the pasteurization. Paturized milk has a lot of the bacteria wiped out, but there's always bacteria left in it, which is why, you know, it just arrives when you're, when
+
+[26:25] you, when you, you know, open it and close it, bacteria gets in it, which is, I think why the recipes always recommend heating it up to like 180 and then letting it cool
+
+[26:34] down. It also helps because now you're warming it and as it cools down, you know, it's ripe for accepting the cultures that you're going to put in the yogurt. There's also, and I don't know whether this is affecting it, but it goes back to a question we had before, when you pasteurize milk, you're changing the characteristics of the milk, right? So you're basically pre-agglomerating some of the whey proteins and you're also stopping some of the curdling ability that you get on
+
+[26:58] Renet casing from when you're making cheese. So it might also be, but I didn't have time to research. I apologize, Joshua, but it might also be that the heating of the milk helps the texture of the yogurt, aside from any properties of killing bacteria. But I don't know. Next time I speak to McGee or someone, maybe also write in and tell me this, I looked in, you know, in McGee's books, and he, indeed, even in past
+
+[27:21] drives milk, recommends heating it up to 180. So there might be something there from a technical standpoint, affecting the milk with the heating. As for then letting it cooling, you want to let it cool down to about 115, give or take, stir in
+
+[27:34] the stir in the culture, the live culture, the yogurt that you already have. And then the temperature isn't really crucial, right? Except for the taste is going to change depending on the temperature at which the yogurt's inoculated. And, you know, it could be done you know, even in a couple of hours, depending on how much you stir in and how active the cultures are that go into
+
+[27:54] it. But I think you are going to get varying results, depending on the temperature that you use. Now, if you find some stable place in your kitchen, like the oven with just a pilot on, although my oven's too hot for that, or a particular place in the
+
+[28:09] kitchen, and you do it once there, right, then it should be the same every time you do it in that
+
+[28:15] location, as long as that location stays the same. So as long as you keep all of your variables the same from time to time, even if you don't have a lot of control,
+
+[28:23] right? Or you don't measure a lot of temperatures, you should be able to get fairly consistent results. But it's never going to be as thick as you want it, in real Greek style, unless after it's made, you put the yogurt over, uh, you know, over a cheese cloth or over a piece of muslin, then let it strain in a
+
+[28:39] colander, uh, overnight in the fridge to let it egg the extra wage drain out. That's the real key to making a really nice thick Greek yogurt. But I hope, Joshua, I hope that helps. And with that, we will go to our 2nd commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking issues. What I want. It might be hard to handle. Like a flame that burns a candle. A can of be the blame. Yeah, yeah, but I got full stop. I thought you dream to scatter. When you pull them all together. And I can't explain. Oh, yeah, well, by you.
+
+[29:35] Well, well, well, you make my dreams are true. you On a night, when, when, come, scream. When the man's with the claim, I love it in the way. Oh, yes. This is... Cooking issues coming in with the Hall and Oats, Nestasia. I have to say that, uh, much as I was making fun of the hollow notes earlier, I I definitely appreciate that. I really
+
+[30:13] do appreciate that, but really making my dreams coming true. Making my dreams coming true every day here on cooking issues. I still have about 15 minutes to call your questions in two, 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. You know what, you guys? Another thing, I'm going to put a call out for people to write in with guests that they would like to
+
+[30:33] hear appear on the cooking issues. What do you think about that, nostasia? Within reason, right? Well, I mean, we're not going to get Barack Obama on if that's what you mean. You know? But, you know, like, look, we have a group of friends that if we get a request, I could pester them. Like, I could Pastor McGee, I could pester, uh, supposed to have Tony. Yeah, Tony Canigliaro and, you know, any one of like our known, our known friends and associates in the cooking world, Wiley, you know,
+
+[30:58] anyone, request them and we'll see whether we can, uh, whether we can pester them with a, with a live request to, or, you know, the request to come in to get them on. But, you know, don't ask me for Barack Obama. you know, we can't we can't get that, right? Okay. Joseph writes in. And he says, Dave, I've been researching various methods of crystallizing flower
+
+[31:16] pedals so that I can use them to make a syrup, which will then be made into a caramel. Why would you crystallize the flower petals to make a syrup with them? Anyway, the question I have is that some formulas say use egg whites and others say use a combination of egg whites and gum Arabic. And Joseph Wright, saying with a fun note, that gum Arabic was using the mummification process, and I too appreciate mummies. Nastasias rolling her eyes because she's sick of hearing me talk about mummies. But I love a mummy and any kind of a mummy story. And I was wondering why I was wondering why they would use these 2 things and is there a difference? In addition, what added benefit does the gum Arabic provide besides increasing the viscosity, the egg white solution, and why would it be called crystallization when there's technically no crystals being formed? Well, I think the procedure you're talking about is either dipping a flower pedal in egg white or gum
+
+[32:00] Arabic, and then basically brushing it with super fine sugar
+
+[32:04] to and then letting it dry out. So assuming we're talking about the same thing, there's, there're basically 2 different, 2 different things. Gum Arabic is obviously a hydrocoloid, it's a tree exudate, and it's one of the very few hydrocoloids, and instead of being
+
+[32:19] a basically a linear chain with very short branches, is a highly branched molecules. So they look like big ping pong balls, like a millipectin almost there, like big. But what that means is is that it's extremely soluble. You can have very high percentage of gum Arabic syrups, right? So if you look at something like gum syrup, old school gum syrup was basically a simple syrup with a lot of gum Arabic added. So the one of the great things it's used for is adhesive or coding because you can have something that's still fairly liquid, right? But has a high percentage of solids in it. And then when it dries out, it dries to, you know, a clear, crystally,
+
+[32:58] a not clear crystal, but a clear, like, you know, hard or, you know, glue thing drives back to gum Arabic fairly quickly.
+
+[33:03] So, uh, if you use a lot of gum Arabic, uh, you know, it can it can do that. And a lot of the recipes I looked at use only gum Arabic to do it. I don't know why you would use egg whites and gum Arabic together. I have to do more research. Frankly, I didn't get a chance to look at it very closely, but I would guess that if
+
+[33:20] you're using a lot of gum Arabic and had it sitting around that you would just have that syrup and you could, and you could just go and it wouldn't go bad kind of because you'd have a very high solids in it, you probably wouldn't get a lot of bacterial growth in it because it would have, you know, such a high
+
+[33:33] solid content. And it'd probably be easier to keep around than eggs. It's also probably more sanitary than eggs. In the house. I'd probably just use egg whites because it's so fast and in general, once it's dried out, I'm not so worried about contamination. Um, and I don't know why they call it that, if there's no actual crystals, a crystals being formed, but the, when I've done it, you are brushing it with crystal. So the flower itself ends up being crystallized, even if you don't actually form your own crystals. Um, Nastasia, you say we had another question come in? Okay. This comes in from red. I said, you answer my question about the red standing of chicken thighs due to pulling a hard vacuum on them. Lowering the vacuum has been a complete success. Thank you. But who is from red? interesting. I've been now switched to bone in chicken breasts from boneless, and I don't know why, but I have. The thing I noticed after cooking for 3 hours at 60 C, depending on the thickness, is after they sit in the fridge, they tend to weep blood. Do I need to cook longer? Is this part of the standing from the bones? I'm not sure. 60 C is low, is low for that for chicken breasts. I mean, they're cooked, but most people are going to want them up around 64,
+
+[34:40] 63, 64. It's still going to retain... It might not be pink at 60, but it's still going to retain a lot of those juices and they probably will weep, especially out of the bones. I mean, even at 3 hours. I think you're going to be better for 64 degrees for like an
+
+[34:56] hour, uh, rather than 60 for 3 using the extra hours, 2 hours to try and get the color into it at that low
+
+[35:04] temperature. I would switch up to 64 for 63 or 64 for an hour. But you're going to have a really tough time with the with the bone. Um, and and the stuff coming out in a vacuum, even in a lower vacuum. I don't know. Please speak to whoever it is and tell them that you would really like to take the bone out of it because I really have a, there's just a lot of problems with putting chicken in the bone
+
+[35:27] in the vacuum. You could try to switch to a Ziploc situation where there's no vacuum at all and that might help it, but I'm not sure, but please give some, give some of those things a try. And then, um, you know, write back or call back and tell us how it worked. We try to do some more troubleshooting, right? Yes. Because chicken's a problem, right? Chicken's a problem in the back. First of all, the more vacuum you suck on chicken, aside from the fact that
+
+[35:49] it, it, it sucks the, um, bones are hollow. Chicken bones are hollow and they're filled with red crap. And when you vacuum it, the red crab comes out. And then, you know, you can't really get rid of it unless you cook it to a really, really high temperature, like in the 80s,
+
+[36:02] 80s somewhere, 70s or 70s, 80s. So I tend not to like to, and also I think the vacuum affects the texture of the chicken. So as much as you can, I think you should suck a very mild vacuum, if you suck a vacuum at all on a piece of chicken. All right, now. One last thing Colin ribbed us on, by the way, that I forgot to mention is
+
+[36:20] a contractual post. I'll have you know that I'm a day person, right? So I said that a week ago, and in fact, the post is already up in draft form. I'm adding the pictures. It'll be up by end of day today. It is a 4000 word megapost,
+
+[36:36] Megapost, on, um, on Nixtamilization. So keep a lookout for that. Wait, we got a call and I'll take that real quick. Hello? Call her you're on the air. Hi Dave. Howdy. Um, in Alinea and a couple other cookbooks I've seen, they talk about uh, blanching garlic and milk a couple times. Does it take away the bike? Huh. Well, you know, it's funny you should say that because when I cook milk in the pressure cooker, sorry, milk, when I cook garlic in the pressure cooker, I also cook it in
+
+[37:05] milk and I don't know why. How about that? Um, I don't know, but I have the book on garlic and
+
+[37:12] alliums. So, um, I'll look it up. I, I, it's like, it's also I blanch horseradish in milk, and I don't know why. as opposed to water, right? I mean, don't we, we all kind of do that. We're trained to do that, but I don't, it's kind of natural for me to do it, but I really don't know why. If there's any sort of chemical, chemical reason. I mean, the stuff that gives garlic its bite are groups of sulfur compounds and, you know, thials and things like that. Um, And I wonder whether there's something in milk that tames those. This sounds like a, this sounds like an area for further, further research. I mean, when you can cook garlic, obviously, in a pressure cooker, and when you do it, you blast
+
+[37:56] the, you blast the pungency away even without milk. But there's a host of things that we blanch in milk, and no one really says why. I'm trying to think. I'm thinking in my head that silence is me thinking in my head. Can you think of any reason? I, off the top of my head, no, I cannot. All right, well, this is, like the, like the yeast question. I mean, even though this is something we do, this is obviously needs some further investigation. So what I think I'll do is next time I pester McGee, I'll put, basically what I do is I call McGee, I don't know, once every 2 weeks or so, and then I sit there and I just pepper him with absurd questions for like 45 minutes.
+
+[38:37] And then he maybe says hello. you know, and then and then the conversation's over. Nastasia thinks I'm a low quality human being for the way I pepper him with questions. But I'm going to add this to my list and plus I'll do some research and I'll go read the, I think the name of the author of the garlic book is block, I think is the guy's name. And it's actually a really interesting book, but I read it kind of very quickly. It's got a, it's got a forward by a Nobel laureate, pretty cool book on garlic. But I'll definitely look that up and I'll try and think about it. And I'm going to try and think about the problem of milk blanching in general because I think it is interesting because it's quite expensive, really, when you think about it, to blanch everything in milk. Right? Yeah, yeah. So we'll look into it and we'll definitely talk about that next week. Alrighty? Great. Hey, you gonna have them on your show again? Who, McGee? Yeah. All right, is this a request? Yes. We'll call him in and have him. Maybe we'll try to get him for next week. Actually, actually, you know what? I'm calling I'm calling in next week because I'm going to be in Vancouver at Tales of the Cocktail. Maybe the week after that, I'll try to get get McGee. All right, cool. Thanks a lot for the question. Thanks, Dave. All right, so back to the Knicks stabilization Mega Post. So the one section of it that I'll talk about now on the air is a pretty badly burnt my
+
+[39:53] tongue last stupidly. I pretty badly burnt my tongue last week on what day of the week was that? Friday. Thursday? Thursday. Thursday. It was Thursday. Wednesday. Wednesday, whatever. Last week. I burnt my tongue with lie. So here's how it happened. We use lion cooking for a lot of things, for pretzels. We use it in the Harold McGee class for our eggs. I have a use for it in the next model post that you're going to read, hopefully, if you're a reader of the blog, which I hope you are. And somehow, a bunch of lie, sodium hydroxide got put into a court container with no label on it. And we're moving a lot of stuff around. And someone puts this container in front of my hand and I'm not in front of my face and it's like, what is it? I'm not used to thinking about something in my kitchen being so dangerous. So I stupidly put my finger in it because I have literally dozens of different quart containers with powders in them sitting around. And most of them are hydrocoloids, simple
+
+[40:54] acids, like tartaric, citric, and malic, um, you know, uh, where I say hydrocoloids, sugar, salt, things like that. And so you can just go boom and taste it and it's done. So I go, boop, taste it, lie. It's the most violent reaction I've ever had on my tongue. It's the equivalent of eating a handful of those Szechuan buttons. And I instantly knew something was horribly, horribly wrong. And so I spat out. ran into the kitchen and started washing my mouth out, you know, thankfully I didn't swallow it or I'd be in really, really, really, really big trouble. Start washing my mouth out for, you know, several minutes. Look in the mirror, my tongue is bleeding, the roof of my mouth is bleeding. It's eaten away all of the taste buds on one half of my tongue. And so I'm like, well, I better go to the ER. So I go to the ER and I had to, you know, stay there for hours while they made sure that I didn't ingest any and I have to take steroids and all this other stuff. But, uh, the tongue heals miraculously. And, uh, my taste is mostly back, although there's still a swath where I have my taste buds burned away, but it's coming back.
+
+[41:59] I'm here to tell you, lie is dangerous. I had it in my house, right? And so I threw it all away because God forbid my kids should get a hold of it. So it's reasonable to cook with lye. It's like, you know, a good ingredient for what it's for, but just be extremely careful. If you have anything like that, and you have kids around, it doesn't take much for them to really, really, really, really damage themselves. I, you know, I've known for years how dangerous it is and I've always been paranoid about it getting on my hands, but I never knew how fast the damage happens.
+
+[42:32] Uh, you know, than when it happened to me last week. So just be extremely careful when you have it around. Make sure that everyone who cooks with it in your kitchen is extremely careful about it, and make sure that there's no possible way on God's earth that any child could ever, ever get their hands on
+
+[42:48] it. Are you going to be in big, big trouble, right? So to round out cooking issues for this week, I'm going to say a little story and
+
+[42:55] a help. I need help from our listeners for more research. So I've been researching a lot about corn for various reasons, mostly because I'm a dork. And I came across something I basically said, there was a lot of corn research and genetic corn research that was brought about by the atomic nuclear testing at the bikini atoll in the 40s after World War II.
+
+[43:16] Because what they did was they took a whole bunch of corn and they exposed it to an atomic blast, several atomic blasts. And then they would plant it to see whether the seeds, presumably, to see whether the seeds germinated or not. But they noticed that there was a good bit of mutation in the, uh, in the, in the corn that, that was newt, right? And so then the Atomic Energy Commission started sponsoring a lot of research on corn,
+
+[43:40] in corn, cold of ours, and core mutations. So if you look at a lot of the research on corn, in the 40s and 50s, it's sponsored by the Atomic Energy Commission, and they would actually create radiation sources with, you know, various forms of radioactive cobalt and whatnot to purposely irradiate seeds, to try and get genetic
+
+[43:56] mutation. So it causes explosion in, um, in genetic research and different kinds of corn mutations. Now, one of the main core mutations that was discovered, discovered in 1949, I believe, was a gene called
+
+[44:12] Shrunken 2. And Shrunken 2 is the precursor to all super sweet corn that we eat today. And before that, corn was relatively sweet or not, but not the super sweet that we have today. So there's a researcher who just happened to be chewing on a bunch of mutant corn while he was sorting through
+
+[44:29] it. And noticed that this one shriveled dried piece of corn was super sweet. isolated that gene, regrew it, and that is the genesis of all the super sweet corn today. So here's what I need to find out. And I've got a bunch of calls in. I want to find out the exact chain that leads from the atomic testing in bikini atoll to
+
+[44:49] super sweet corn because there's some sort of link there, right? You know, whether, and I'm hoping that all super sweet corn is a result
+
+[44:57] of, um, of irradiation by cobalt as a result of the initial experiments done with the atomic
+
+[45:03] testing, because I just love the idea of nuclear sweet corn, don't you? And this has been cooking issues.
+
+[45:14] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[45:32] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Foods USA. In late March, Dan, Andrea Patrick, and the Heritage Team are traveling to the coldest reaches of the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont to help the Cantor family tap sugar maple trees.
+
+[46:03] Then the maple sap will flow down to the sugar house where it has boiled gently over a wood fire just as it has been for generations.
+
+[46:10] Just a few days later, this grade A, amber syrup, will be poured into the beautiful glass jugs and sent to you for pancakes, waffles, desserts, glazing hams, or just drinking by the
+
+[46:21] spoonful. There's only a limited supply, so order today. Each one liter bottle is $45, including delivery. Delivery will be at the end of March, and we will notify you of the exact shipping date. Each shipment will include a CD, explaining the whole process. You can also follow us on YouTube while we work and bottle. In the meantime, you can head over to the Heritage Radio Network archives and listen to Linda Pelaggio talk about maple syrup on her show, a taste of the past, episode 12. For more information, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join wine impresarios, Aaron Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco, as they dish out on the latest industry news with winemakers and tastemakers on Heritage Radio Network's revamped wine
+
+[47:08] show, Unfiltered. Aaron Fitzpatrick, one of the 1st hosts on HRN with her program at the root of it, amps up the volume and unfiltered content with
+
+[47:16] co-host Brian DeMarco in this 2011 redux. True to the original format, Erin and Brian will keep you abreast of current happenings, and break down the news and global events, distilling complex into anecdotal stories that inspire. From media and political events to hailstorms in Argentina, no topic is out of bounds.
+
+[47:33] Tune in every week to hear them chat up the industry's biggest personalities and host on-air tastings with visiting ventors and the country's hottest somoliers. Whether you're an expert or an enthusiast, unfiltered demystifies
+
+[47:45] wine, and lets you know what it really takes to get a bottle from the vineyard to your neighborhood wine shop.
+
+[47:50] Unfiltered broadcast live every Tuesday at 4 PM on Heritage Radio Network. The following is a public service announcement from the Museum of Food and Drink. Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a
+
+[48:08] 9 course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto Sunday, March 27th, their intent to Kickstart the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere. How will a cutting edge chef handle the Paleolithic, or a dish only using pre-Columbian ingredients? What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome? The chefs include David Chang of Bomufuku, Wiley Dufrayne of WD50? Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of
+
+[48:42] Salu Maria Rossi, Carlo Maraci of Roberta's, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina Tozzi of
+
+[48:49] Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders, of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh, Death & Company, Simon Ford of Pernot Ricard, Damon
+
+[48:57] Boltie of Prime Meats, and Eben Clem of BR Guest Restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the Museum of Food and Drink, tickets are very limited, and $250 per
+
+[49:07] person, to purchase tickets, please visit mofad.eventbright.com. That's MOFAD.eventbright.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D dot E-V-E-N-T-B-R-I-T-E dot com. Sponsored by for No Recard, Heritage Foods USA, Pat Lafrida Meats, Barterhouse Wines, Del Posto Restaurant.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] Fishes, fish, vodka. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. We're recording on a Monday, but we're going to be broadcasting on Tuesday, so if you're listening to it now, you're probably not listening to it live.
+
+[0:18] But if you happen to have read our blog post, you can call in your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. This is the last cooking issues before the big museum fundraiser event. It's going on at Del Posto next weekend on Sunday. You can still go and buy your tickets at Mofad, MOFAD. That's a museum of food and drink. Mofad.eventbright, B-R-I-T-E, uh.com. That's mofad.eventbright.com. Anyway, we are privileged today to have a special Colin guest. Harold McGee is going to be the ultimate master blaster of the science of deliciousness is going to be joining us via phone. Unfortunately, we're working very hard on the museum event. And so Nastasia cannot be with us today in the studio because, in fact, she is delivering produce to WD 50 because Wiley
+
+[1:13] DuFrame is going to be working on the dish today for, you know, doing some preparatory work today for his dish. So no nostasia, but we do have Harold Harold, you there? Hi, I'm Dave. Good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. How's the West Coast treating you? Uh, it's, it's okay. This last week has been really rainy and cold. Today, it was sunny to begin with, but the sun has disappeared, so it looks like it may be another grim week.
+
+[1:40] I'd love it then. You know, I hate the sunshine. Well, but you know, 50 degrees, you want a little a few rays. Yeah, all right, all right. Yes, if it's going to be 50 out, it might as well be a little bit exciting. Okay, so you want to start hitting these questions? We have a bunch of email questions in. Sure. Before we start, someone wrote in, one of the questions, they want to know the secret of Thai iced tea. The mysterious spices in Thai iced tea. And I have to say, I don't know, because I'm not a, I don't really, I don't drink it. Do you drink it? I'm afraid I haven't for a long time. I did a couple times years ago and uh,
+
+[2:22] yeah, I just can't pull back the, uh, the flavors. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think that, you know, this is the kind of question Aaron wrote in with it. I think this is the kind of question, um, you know, I would hate to give just a research answer off of the web of what belongs in
+
+[2:39] it because I don't have the actual taste memory in my head to know whether it's right or
+
+[2:43] not. It's not something I've worked on because it's not something that it's just not something that I've, you know, focused on ever, but, you know, I'm sure that we can find the answer. I mean, if you, you know, if you see PIM when you're out there or something like that, we can probably get the answer of what the, what the stuff is, but I would hate to, I would hate to guess on something like that. Yeah, yeah. No, same here. All right, Aaron, so I apologize, but I will not be able to answer that question this week because I just don't want to give an answer that's
+
+[3:13] BS. I'd rather not give a B. I'd rather give no answer than a BS answer, right? Yeah, and also, I mean, uh, uh, for
+
+[3:22] Aaron to do his own research, uh, shape him would be a good place to start. Uh, David Thompson's book on Thai cooking is uh, seems to be the the standard. So there are a couple of, you know, authorities you can start with and then kind of move on from there. Yeah, I'm sure Thompson has a recipe for it in the book. I have it at home. I just haven't been home to to look at it, to get the recipe out of it, but his book is, you know, as far as I can
+
+[3:48] tell, quite well respected. I know that he's done all of his research on the, on kind of the, on the old manuscript. So he has a thorough knowledge of current Thai cooking and historical Thai cooking. So. And in fact, I think he has a new book this last year on
+
+[4:04] street cooking, street tie, which might be an even better place to look. Yeah. And that's where we'd probably go anyway if we were just going to give you. wouldn't be our answer. It would be his answer anyway. Yeah, exactly. Or check out PIM's PIM's site. Now, I'm going to knock out one question right away and Harold, you can chime in because you've had some of this stuff. But, uh, Rick writes in and says that his roommate, Zach's advisor, just purchased a new rotary evaporator for the lab and has agreed to let them use it for a few days for food purposes and they want to take maximum advantage of everything that they can do in
+
+[4:41] it. And, uh, you know, they want to build their own, but they're not ready for it quite yet. And so they want to know what we should do. Like, uh, he just wants to distill basically as much as possible. Um, he wants to get the flavors of Falernum, uh, into it. Maybe. He wants to do, um, Martell Cordon Blue is right for something. I've actually wrote a vet, and Harold, you've had it. We did a event with Mandy Aftel where we wrote a F Martel with Frankincense. I't know whether you like frankincense, but Martel does roto that quite well. Uh, he wants to do something with maybe uh, absinthe, any of these things, oak, dirt, grass, cigars, uh, peppers, like
+
+[5:18] Wajillo Ancho and stuff like that. What do they wrote of app stuff do you like, Harold? Pretty much everything you've done. I love what you do with habaneros, for example, that's an amazing experience to be able to separate the
+
+[5:34] heat from the aroma. Right. Yeah, I mean, I've done dried and and have you ever had any of the dried pepper? I prefer the fresh pepper ones because I like the floral note that they have more. Yeah, yeah. Um... And then, I mean, the dishes that I've had, uh, that have really stuck in my head. In fact, the very 1st one is probably still the, the one I remember best, uh, is the, the
+
+[6:01] Roka family did a, um, an oyster in a jelly that was flavored
+
+[6:07] with, uh, earth. Uh, so, um, uh, one of the ideas on the list here
+
+[6:14] was, uh, along with oak and grass and cigars was dirt and dirt works, although, uh, you and I had it, I think, um, when, um, uh, the Roccas were visiting the
+
+[6:27] FCI, and it wasn't the same. Well, they didn't give it to me. He wouldn't give he said he was going to give it to me and he didn't, probably because it wasn't the same, maybe. Yeah, yeah. So in fact, I had it and it wasn't as good. And I think with something a flavoring that you wrote a vap that isn't a standard food ingredient. It's more of an environmental aroma. I think you have to just nail the concentration just right. Otherwise, it tastes like dirt instead of like the forest. Well, and also they were using a water-based distillate, and the water-based distillates tend not to be fixed very well. So if they're opening and closing the bottle and it has to be transported, I mean, I don't know what kind of freshness problem they have with that just in terms of
+
+[7:12] loss of the volatiles, but I mean, it's a huge problem with non-alcoholic
+
+[7:16] rotovapt products is that they just tend to, the aroma is so fugitive. They tend to just go, you know? Could that have been it? Was it overly dirty or was it just not as just unbalanced? What was it, the one? Well, it's a good question. I was guessing that it was the concentration because it did seem to be just
+
+[7:35] stronger. But it could have been stronger because, you know, the wrong things were
+
+[7:40] were popping out. And, um, so it it could have been that it was just, uh, you know, he, he had to prepare the distillate and then bring it with him, and who knows how many days old it was, and that may have been the problem. Right. Well, okay, if you have a Roto app for just a couple of days. I would, obviously, I would recommend trying something that you could do no other way. And that would be some sort of fresh herb, right? Some sort of fresh herb that you distill. And I would drink that right away. Make it very, very fresh, very, you know, summery spring like, uh, that's like, you know, the one that we do with the um, with the Thai basil and cilantro and uh, the cucumber and the orange, right? Something like that with those flavors because you can't recreate that with normal distillation because the temperature is too high and it's going to alter the flavor of the herb. So I would definitely do that. I would then do something like a pepper. I would choose a fresh one that's floral, kind of red, so you can get the floral
+
+[8:34] note, so you can see what it's like that the spice doesn't go through. I would then do horseradish because horseradish makes an intensely, intensely pungent because
+
+[8:43] the, the, the, pungent principle of horseradish does distill, and that's going to last you a long time.
+
+[8:48] So you'll have that for a, you know, a good long time. Then, then just start doing wacky things like de-oaks, some liquors, um, you know, try some of the culinary
+
+[8:57] preps like uh, dirt or earth. Just remember, you're going to have to, uh, some of the things that are more aromatic, like horseradish
+
+[9:03] or um, or habaneros or whatever you do, you're going to have to totally break down and clean all the grease out of the rotovap
+
+[9:10] joints uh, before you run the next batch because you'll get contaminated. There's also, if you've never run one, unless your roommate knows how to run it really
+
+[9:17] well or the, or the, you know, the professor knows how to run it really well. There is a learning curve associated with it. Don't set it to the automatic distillation. Sit there and actually constantly force the distillation so that you're getting the fastest rate possible. Set your chiller as low as it can possibly go. For alcohol, you're going to want to set it around -20 Celsius. We now use a cold finger distillation distill with liquid nitrogen and we can do water-based distillations that way. But, um, have some fun with it. Tell us how it worked out. Right? That's good advice, right, Harold? Yeah, yeah. Always fun. Good stuff. I've never done a cigar. I don't know. I've done smoky stuff. I've never done a cigar. Anyway, an unsmoked cigar, you think he means, or like the ashes of cigar? No, it must be unsmoked. I mean, the, the, the fermented leaves, that's the, that would be really interesting. Right. Right, but it's not characteristic, what you think of as cigar, the smoke. It's different. It's a completely different. Well, yeah, it's the cigar box smell rather than the, yeah,
+
+[10:19] than the smoke room, which which I think is a good thing. All right, here's a question for you, Harold. Does using reduced fat milk lead to a higher weight, higher weight production in when you're making
+
+[10:32] yogurt? Like if you're going to break it? Well, it shouldn't. Because if you're using a reduced fat milk, usually reduced fat milk is um, supplemented with uh, whey solids, which include uh, lactoglobulin, which is uh, a whey protein, not the, the caseine proteins
+
+[10:55] that curdle, but uh, white protein that's soluble, but when
+
+[11:00] you, when you heat the milk, uh, which you should do at 180 for 30
+
+[11:06] minutes before you make the yogurt, that protein denatures and helps uh, give the yogurt body and and uh, water retaining uh, ability. And so reduce fat milk is going to have more of that protein. And it should, in fact, release less weight rather than more. And the heating then is necessary to alter the whey proteins. That is a necessary step because that was one of the questions before. Yeah, in fact, if you, uh, if you just make the the yogurt without the preheating step, you'll, of course, still get uh, curdled milk, but it's not going to have the kind
+
+[11:42] of um, thick, pleasing consistency that you really want. There you have it. And then as a separate question, what makes a marinade effective, obvious factors are time, but what about oils, ratios of oils,
+
+[11:58] acids, or other liquids or the consistency of the herbs and other aromatics? Joshua would like to know? What do you think? Well, um, yeah, different ingredients are going to provide different
+
+[12:10] things, uh, and uh, consistency, for example, you're going to get a lot more direct contact
+
+[12:16] with uh, the meat that you're marinating if the uh, material has been finally comminuted. So if it's if it's ground or very, very finely minced and instead of chopped or whole. Um, uh, if it spices, then, uh, you know, some of the aromas are going to get out into the liquid and we'll get into
+
+[12:38] the into the meat that way. But there's not much that happens beyond the surface unless you're actually going to leave it in there for days. So that's something to keep in mind. Or if you vacuum bag. Uh, yeah, yeah. Or Jacquard, obviously, if you Jacquard it or inject, then you can have the stuff happen very quickly. I mean, I've noticed, okay, so a lot of people, they'll do a buttermilk marinade, which, you know, chicken is fairly
+
+[13:05] friable, along the fibers, you can get some penetration. And if you vacuum bag it, you especially can. And when you cook it that way, I find sometimes it gets like acidic brines, for me, if you're not going to take the next step and overcook the meat in a traditional
+
+[13:19] way, if you're going to do sous vide work on it, it just is too mushy to me. You lose too much structure. What do you think? Yeah, no, I agree. Uh, that's, that's uh, something you see, you know, if you, if you do a typical wine marinade and overdo it, then what you end up with is the surface layer that you can just scrape off because
+
+[13:37] the, the meat has, has denatured so much. And you don't want that. Um, so, uh, uh, using one of those the methods that you mentioned in order to speed it up if you really want some
+
+[13:50] penetration. And otherwise, you know, put the flavors in the sauce. Right. I mean, I tend to, when I marinate, I tend to, you're right, exactly. I put acidic flavors and things like that in the sauce with rare exceptions. And I put the functional ingredients for the water holding capacity for proteins,
+
+[14:08] salts and sugars and things like that, in the marinade or brine. I mean, that's typically what I do. Yeah, yeah, because salts are going to get into the meat. Flavor molecules are much bigger. Salt breaks down into ions, they're tiny little particles that can move in and out of the meat pretty easily, but flavor molecules are not going to do the same thing.
+
+[14:29] Caleb has a question about smoking sausage. He purchased some cherry chipotle pork sausage. That's like a cherry chipotle. It's got a ring to it there, right? And he's pretty excited about it. What simply smoking the sausage as he would for a brisket or pork ribs. Would that be a valid and delicious way to cook it? don't see why not. Do you have any thoughts on that? No, sounds good to me. you know, get some cherry wood. I mean, the trick with the smoking, right? I mean, the trick with any sort of sausage cookery is that when you're cooking off a sausage,
+
+[15:00] typically what happens is you overcook the hell out of the sausage and you're relying on the high fat content of the sausage and hopefully the
+
+[15:07] crafts, you know, the crafts, you know, person who made it, making sure that there's enough fat in there, such that it stays juicy even when it's
+
+[15:14] overcooked, right? So if you can, I would try to control the smoking, such that the sausage itself doesn't get much above 140 when you're doing it. And I think then you're going to have like a really, you know, fantastic product. When we're cooking a sausage, what we'll typically do is water bath them at 140, which is 60 in Celsius land, and
+
+[15:35] then and then grill them or fry them or pan them to get that nice, you know, kind of crusty outside to it.
+
+[15:42] So I think a lot of it's going to be about the temperature control. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's one of the most common sins in the kitchen is overcooking sausages and losing all the, you know, all that craftsmanship that goes into mixing
+
+[15:56] the, the fat with the, the meat just goes away the moment that you overcook it to the point that all
+
+[16:03] the, the juices are squeezed out. Yeah, what's the point, right? Right? Yep, yep. Just because it's a sausage. Right. Yeah, but just because it's a sausage doesn't mean you should mistreat it. You know what I mean? And it's so easy not to mistreat it, especially if you have a circulator on board. You know, you can just, it makes life so easy. Anyway. All right. So we're going to go to our 1st commercial break. If anyone should be around listening and it's, remember, we're recording on Monday, not Tuesday, call on your questions
+
+[16:28] too, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[17:03] You'll only come by tonight Lean a hungry time.
+
+[17:10] Nothing new, I've seen it here before. Watching a wedding. Wish she's sitting with you, but her eyes around the door. Somebody pain to see What you think that you get it for free. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Every Sunday at 430 PM, tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house, a weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired, and despised. Each week, Curtis B. Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture
+
+[17:54] fiends to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms.
+
+[18:00] Again, that's every Sunday at 4.30 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Hello and welcome back to cooking issues. Call on your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Curtis Wayne, host of the show not to be confused with Wayne Curtis, noted rum scholar. Weird, huh? Harold, you still with us? Yes indeed. Beautiful, beautiful. All right. So where were we? We had a question. I will read it to you from Colin Gore. He often asks us questions, but this one is specifically for you. Harold, the sweet potato is a delectable amalgam of starch pecked in sugars and other components. This I know. This mixed composition of sweet potato guts makes it a very versatile tuber. What I'm fuzzy on is why adding some acid. lets say vinegar to hot sweet potato puree improves the film forming properties of the puree upon drying. Without the vinegar, the film is glassy and brittle. But with the vinegar addition, the final film is essentially a kick ass, sweet potato fruit rollup. I saw a recipe for Abulato, which calls for the addition of some vinegar to the simmering potato starch solution.
+
+[19:06] So I assume that the vinegar modifies, interacts with the starch in the sweet potato and other sweet potato components are just along for the ride. What is your hunch on what is being modified? Uh, and uh, we'll hit that first. By the way, for those of you who don't know, the Abulato is that, I think it's how it's pronounced. don't know. Those are those potato starch sheets that you can wrap things in. You can you can buy them. I think, I forget where they're made. Are they made in Japan or Spain? I don't know. really use them, but that's what they are. Any thoughts on this, Harold? You know, this is really interesting. I need to play with this. My guess is that he's right that it's an effect on the starch, you're getting some limited
+
+[19:48] hydrolysis, and that kind of plasticizes the starch, so that when you dried all the way down. You know, you've got some, you've got more, um, uh, small sugar, uh, molecules and small portions,
+
+[20:03] small, um, pieces of starch that help soften the, the film, uh, so that it can't form as, uh, as brittle as
+
+[20:12] she does he describes, and, uh, probably the same thing is going on with the sweet potato. Normally, starch, I'm sorry, acidity, um, uh, makes vegetable matter of various
+
+[20:25] kinds uh, harder, uh, by limiting the degree to which
+
+[20:30] the, the, um, cell wall components can be removed. But in this case, it's the opposite effect. And because he's seen it in a pure starch uh system, my guess is that he's right that that's what's going on. Right, but it seems strange that you would have hydrolysis with just a little bit of acid, you
+
+[20:53] know? And conversy, though, it's just not like a protein where you're shifting the, you know, the isoelectric point by adding a
+
+[21:00] little by shifting the pH a little bit and then radically changing its properties. It seems odd. Maybe he's adding a lot of acid. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, well that's it. I don't get an idea here for how much acid is being added. But, you know, it doesn't take a whole lot to, uh, uh, to change the hydrolysis rate. You'll get you'll get hydrolysis of starch in in neutral water just from the water itself. So it might be that, um, uh, just shifting the pH a little bit, uh, can can make a significant difference. So it's similar to adding a little bit of acid to a sugar boil when you're boiling it. It's going to increase the breakdown if the longer you boil it, the higher the breakdown. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And yeah, that's the other thing that's missing here is any sense of timing, you know, how long it takes, whether this happens kind of immediately or whether you have to kind of incubate it to let it
+
+[21:52] happen. Because any breakdown of the starch into shorter chain, uh, you know, uh, sugars and dexter and things like that is going to plasticize the, the sheet somewhat, right? Yeah. Of course, so with adding a maltodextrin. But maybe, you know, this is easier, I guess. Yeah, that's true. If you, uh, if you add small, uh, small molecules, uh, as another ingredient, then you could get the same effect without without the, the acidity and without the flavor of vinegar.
+
+[22:20] And that might be an interesting alternative. And vinegar is also an interesting choice because although that's, for instance, what I use in my candy boils and it's traditional, um, it's a volatile acid. So why, you know, it would be, it's interesting that you would choose a volatile acid, maybe as a self-limiting measure. I don't know. Yeah. Interesting. Because I'd also have to I've never done a test of boiling vinegar, testing the pH before and after and seeing how much of the vinegar, the acidity is reduced by the boiling.
+
+[22:49] you know, once you recorrect for the liquid loss. Yeah, yeah. I've played around with that a little bit. Not, not really systematically, just kind of, you know, with my left hand while I was doing something
+
+[23:02] else, just to, just out of curiosity. And it seems as though the the pH anyway is relatively constant. You know, as you as you boil it down, boil a 5% solution down, which surprised
+
+[23:16] me. Because it should get more acidic, right? You'd think so, but you, as you, as you say, you are boiling
+
+[23:23] off, um, acetic acid as well as water as you boil. So it boil, basically, you lost vinegar at almost the same rate as water. Right, right. Interesting. I mean, I know for a fact that when you spray dry vinegar, you get the taste of vinegar, but not the acidity, so you need to augment the acidity with a separate acid. When you're making, let's say,
+
+[23:42] vinegar potato chips and you're sprinkling vinegar, powder, which is spray dried with a
+
+[23:49] multidextrin carrier. When you do that, you have to add a supplementary acidity to get the acidity back to where you want it. So, I mean, it's volatile enough. And then, uh, Colin's 2nd question because we have we have pumped your your awesome walnuts on the on the show. So he has a question here. Is there anywhere on the east coast that a fellow can find walnuts, low in tannins and astringency? Is it merely a matter of harvesting walnuts in an immature state, uh, on
+
+[24:13] uh, San Giovanni's day, as many Nochino recipes call for? I did not know that. I don't know what species grow in Italy where those recipes originate. And we have black walnuts locally. interested in finding nearby sweet, sweet nuts, as yours are likely off limits. I would be delighted if you could enlighten us further on the matter. All right, let's have the talk on walnuts. I don't think there's anything off limits about California walnuts. I think they'd love to sell more of them. The problem was finding a source on the east coast of the good stuff
+
+[24:44] because, you know, that ranges from good to not so good. And you can tell just by looking at the nuts, how astringent they're going to be, the
+
+[24:52] lighter the seed coat, the milder they're going to be. Um, uh, and of course, you want to make sure by looking at them as well, that they're fresh, because that's going to be the other problem. You know, if they've been shipped across the country, then who knows what kind of shape they're in once they get there. Immature walnuts are wonderful, but they're nothing like the walnuts we're talking about here. They're wonderful, crunchy, they're not that astringent, but boy, you have to wear gloves in order to deal with them, right? Staying the heck out of your hand, right? Yeah, yeah. They do have that the fruits do do give you that wonderful kind of aroma. that's nothing like a standard, you know, dried walnut, uh, aroma, but, uh, yeah, it's a completely different experience and a mess. Right, well, I try. Well, as a kid, I used to play around with that stuff. That stuff does not come out of your hands. It just doesn't. because we had a bunch of walnut trees around. But the, um, okay, so at your house, we tried the red walnuts, which people are pushing, but those weren't the miracle
+
+[25:54] nuts. They were nice. They were good. The red walnuts. Maybe you could say something about those, but it was these very lowest stringency. Why don't they just, why don't they just ship only that? Like, is it more difficult to produce? Is it a tree by tree variation the same way it is with acorns? You know, some acorns are more bitter than others, uh, and you just have to know the tree. I mean, I don't really know much about walnut propagation is walnut clonal. This is done by graft? Is it done by seed? Is it just lucky shots? Like, why isn't every, as a separate ancillary question? Like why are California almonds so low in oil? Why? Why? Why do they grow them so low in oil? But Leonard's like, could they make all the walnuts this delicious and they just don't? I think so. I think it's for the most part a matter of variety. And, um, uh, you know, there's a particular guy I go to at the farmer's market out here
+
+[26:43] who uh, has several different matches. He's got red walnuts, he's got the really light skinned walnuts, and he's got darker ones. Um and they're priced accordingly. The red ones are more expensive than the light ones which are more expensive than the dark ones. And, you know, you just, you can take your pick. We like the light ones best though, right? Yeah, because they have the just the nicest flavor, the nicest, nutty flavor. Um, I think the reason, though, uh, the red ones are awfully good. The red ones have, instead of having tannins in the, the, the
+
+[27:21] brown uh, seed coat, they have um, anthacyanins, the same pigments that give color to lots of fruits and vegetables, grapes, things like that.
+
+[27:31] Um, they're, they're very delicious too, and they're not nearly as tannic as um, uh, as standard walnuts. I think the reason you didn't like them as much is that that batch of red ones wasn't as fresh as my batch of pale ones.
+
+[27:47] Ah, so they're just as walnutty. Yeah, yeah. No, they're they're delicious. All right. Well, I stand corrected then on the on the red nuts, but what's this farmer's name, do you know? I don't, I don't, um, uh, I know it's on his truck and I'm just not able to, to pull it into memory at the moment. He's at the ferry market, the ferry channel market. No, he's actually at the Alamany farmer's market. Well, go look for the sweet nuts at Alamany Farmer's Market. But why can't they, why, like, I think it's just freshness? It can't be. Like, why do they only why do they even grow the darker skin? Is it just easier? Yeah, I think it's, um, and and it may be that it's just a matter of, uh, you know, farmers covering their bets if they just all grow the
+
+[28:35] same variety and there happens to be a problem with that variety. It's the old, um, you know, monoculture problem. Um, and also, I'm just not exactly sure which variety is which here. It may be that this is a new one or it's an old one and it's not as productive. There might be all kinds of reasons for the predominance of the darker, mortanic nuts. Right. I really don't know much about walnut culture at all. I don't know how long it takes for a tree to come into bearing or, I mean, I know they bear for a long time, but I don't know kind of what the farm cycle is on a walnut tree.
+
+[29:08] Why are almonds from California so low in oil? Do they do that on purpose? That's a good question. You and I have tried to figure that one out. Why are almonds from California just not more delicious? No offense, California. They could. I mean, they're, I mean, talk about uh, tannic tough, thick skins. Um, uh, there, there's no mistaking uh, California almond. Uh, and I don't know, again, it may be a matter of uh, agronomic yield rather than uh, quality, um,
+
+[29:45] I'll I'll look into that. I'll ask some questions. Because I would pay more for more. in fact we do. We pay more for European almonds that are higher in oil and more delicious. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Aaron writes in from Hull. And he says that he's going to be curing some bacon next week and he intends to use Michael Rulman's charcuterie recipe for it, which is 450 grams of
+
+[30:10] salt to 225 grams of sugar to 50 grams pink salt, pink salt. I'm assuming he's using the insecure number one, which is nitrite, not a nitrate. You want to make sure that you know which pink salt you're dealing with. And he's going to coat the pork belly with some of this mixture and leave it in the fridge or freezer for some number of days before roasting it until it reaches an internal temperature
+
+[30:30] of 65, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, kosher salt is hard to come by where I live, is sea salt like, um, Malden, a, I think he means Malden, it says more than here, but Malden's
+
+[30:40] a suitable substitute, suitable, but extremely expensive. I mean, the main thing you're going to want to do is, I mean, I don't really think it makes that much of a difference in that people have all
+
+[30:54] these questions about whether or not certain salts are bad for curing. It's true that sea salts probably have some sort of extra minerals in them, but I don't know what they add to the brining process.
+
+[31:05] And pickles, it's extremely important not to use certain salts because they can discolor the pickle, but I don't know that it's a big deal in
+
+[31:12] a brine for a bacon. Do you, Harold? Uh, I don't think so. I know that it is an issue in the curing of fish,
+
+[31:20] whitefish, like cod, because the calcium and magnesium salts can end up causing the cod to yellow, but with
+
+[31:28] the bacon, that's not an issue. Ham guys swear that the type of salt that they use makes a difference. In fact, I'm wearing a Finchfield farms country ham hat right now. They say it makes a difference, but I don't really know what the basis is.
+
+[31:42] I could go research. I have Fidel Toldra's book on dry cured meat products and I could look into the effect of the different salt components. But I am sure that you will be fine. If your wallet allows you to use Malden, then go ahead. Oh, maybe they meant more sea salt. Any sea salt's going to work fine. I would like to try a bacon cure with maple syrup for a friend. Should I just add some maple syrup to the freezer bag? I'm planning on doing this by eye until it's pretty evenly covered. Does this affect the curing process in any way that I should know? Well, you're going to be doing a wet cure in that, and you would substitute maple syrup for the water and sugar, and then put salt into the maple syrup, I assume, right, Harold? That sounds right to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Number 3 was how long should I leave the bacon to cure? I'm guessing the amount of time will be a function of the size shaped weight of the meat I am curing. Could you give me some guidelines? I don't have any in my head. I believe that the charcuterie book, Michael Roman's book, has some guidelines in it. You can accelerate the cure by putting it in a vacuum bag, but usually penetration is based on the
+
+[32:42] actual strength of the brine you're using, which is crucial. So if you're going to add water to it, like with maple syrup, that's going to reduce the brine theoretical brine strength. And then on certain number of days for penetration, a certain number of inches into the
+
+[32:56] meat, and it also is going to depend on the particular fat, um, the fat quantity in your piece of meat, uh, versus the lean. Do you have anything on that, Harold? Uh, no, that's that's about all I could come up with. There are charts in books. Uh, and, and uh, as you say, um, uh, days per inch guidelines. Uh, and uh, that's that's really the place to go. Yeah. And then lastly, he's just ordered a piece of equipment that allow him to try sous vide cooking at home. Congratulations. Would he be better cooking in the pork belly this way after curing or not? If so, is there anything you should look out for using this method? Okay, I happen to love pork belly cooked sous vide, uh, in which case you choose the temperature you want to cook. In general, I would do something below 65, something like 63, 62, 63, even as low as 60. It's going to take that Celsius. So 140 and up in that range. It's going to take a long time, like 3 days, two, 3 days to get tendered where you want. And then crisp up the skin. Oh, and I think he asked later, sure you leave the rind on, I would, wouldn't you? Yes. Yes, definitely. I would leave the rind on. And then I wouldn't trim it at all. I would crisp the skin up and serve it because that's the that's the best part once it's crisp. I mean, leave it on forever is what I would do. Yeah, it's going to sound a little gross. We might want to trim away the areas where the teats are just because they
+
+[34:21] don't they don't fit the pan as well. The crucial thing when cooking a pork belly for later cooking is to compress it a little bit before you do so that you get a nice flat surface to pan the skin on to make it nice and crunchy.
+
+[34:34] The other thing I've noticed, and Harold, I think we've talked about this before, is that when you have the pork belly isn't one specific muscle. It's a group of muscles. And some of them, the ones that are the streaky portion
+
+[34:48] and streaky bacon, let's say. They respond very well to cooking for a long time on the order of several days. There's one muscle that runs through the pork belly in that you can really see in the cut that's called in Chinese 5 fingers or 5
+
+[35:05] flower, whatever it is, pork. One of those muscles doesn't respond very well to long cooking and gets mushy and
+
+[35:11] kind of tastes kind of dry. And so it's a muscle that looks a little oval as you cut through the pork
+
+[35:19] belly. And I would take it out. you know, and cook that some other way. Have you had that experience with pork belly? Or have you noticed that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, in no matter who's made it. Yeah, if that muscle is in there, then it's just different from the others. Kind of like the shoulder. There's so many different muscles that some of them are just wonderful and others are less so. Right. I would say, yeah, I would say different and worse. All right. And with that, listen, if anyone's out there, you have one more chance to call in. 718. going to go to our next 2nd commercial break. Call in 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[36:35] You'll only come by tonight. Lean a hungry time. Nothing you do, I've seen it here before. Watching a wedding. She's sitting with you when you want to ride the road. Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Our producer, Jack, was pumping up the hall notes, this particular song because he thinks it's nice, rainy day weather, which it is here in Brooklyn, rainy. I'll say one last time. You have a couple more days to go to mofad.eventbright.com to purchase tickets for the museum fundraiser. I'll tell you a little bit about what I'm doing at the end of the show. But right now, let's get back. We have Harold McGee on the phone. Hey, would you consider the next time you're in town on a Tuesday to do the show live here at the studio? Yeah, I'd love to. Love to. Nice. Nice. I was, I saw, I saw our mutual buddy Nathan Mirville this morning. Nathan was doing his book tour. He booked out Jean George's restaurant in the morning, and they cooked some of the some of the dishes from his cookbook, and he might be a phoning guest at some point, which would be fun. It was just pushing, you know, we have some good, some good guests, you know, coming, like, apparently Grant Aikets is going to, is going to be on the show sometime
+
+[38:01] in May, I think. I think, I guess to push the opening of the new place or what? I don't know. I don't know. I heard from his publicist. Anyways, this is what's going on in cooking issues, Land. All right. Now, we have a question for you from Tom M. My question for Mr. McGee is, does extended brining, denature, the enzymes, and beef responsible for tenderizing it? I wish to have a tender corned beef brisket, and I've considered cooking it sous vide for 131 for 12 to 24 hours, shocking it in
+
+[38:29] an ice bath, and only then brining it. But if brining does not denature the tenderizing enzymes, then I might as well brine it for a couple of days. Then do 131 sous vide, um, followed by low temperature
+
+[38:41] smoking and only then do a high temperature sous vide, uh, to get to college in transforming temperatures for the appropriate length of time. Am I making things too complicated? And can I achieve it in a simpler manner? Well, I'll just I'll say 2 things before I hand it off to you, Harold. Uh, one, um, you don't want to shock, you never want to shock a protein like that uh, after it comes out of the, um, out of the
+
+[39:05] bath, because if you do, you're, um, you're basically going to, uh, prevent the meat from reabsorbing some of the juices that have been expelled during the
+
+[39:14] cooking, and even at 131. you're going to get juices expelled. So you're not going to you're not going to want to do that. I'm also going to say that I think that 131's a little low for brisket. Um, might want to, I've, look, it's, it's, people do it all the time, very rare, long, long cookings like this, but I find that people, if they're expecting a cut of meat that is meant to be a little higher in temperature, it's better to go a little higher in temperature,
+
+[39:39] uh, but with that, let me hand it off to you, Harold. Uh, yeah, I'd be interested to see what that's like, 131 brisket, but I have a feeling I'm
+
+[39:49] going to, I'd prefer it at a higher temperature. Um, and then, uh, on the issue of, um, brining, denaturing the enzymes. Um, you know, that, uh, I've actually never thought of that. I know, uh, in pretty good detail what's happening to the, uh, fiber proteins during brining, and that's the, the major effect
+
+[40:13] of, uh, uh, tenderizing effect of a brine on meat is that it, it kind of unknits the, uh, the muscle fibers and makes them uh, easier to cut through.
+
+[40:23] Um, I've never thought about whether the, the salt conditions are going to change the activity of the, of the enzymes that
+
+[40:33] due to some extent break down the collagen and the, and the fiber proteins. And so that's something I'm going to go look up when we're all done. I have no idea. But as a general principle, Uh, you want to do the brining before the cooking, not after. The brining is only going to have its tenderizing moistening effects if you do it while the meat is raw. Right. And also, you can't cure cooked meat, right? I mean, corned beef is cured somewhat. So it's not going to be You can't cure cooked meat, can you? Yeah, it's, again, kind of an interesting counterintuitive sort of thing. I think probably, yeah, what's going to happen is that you will desiccate it. Uh, but, but the, um, uh, the meat is is cooked. It's done and anything you do to it with salt afterwards is just going to dry it out and make it salty. Right, right. Yeah, it's interesting. I've never even thought about trying to brine something out to it. But I mean, corned beef, typically, you'd add some amount of nitrite to it, wouldn't you? I mean, it's pink usually, right? So it's been it's been painted. It definitely won't pink out. You're gonna have it look gray. Well, you wanted these temperatures at 131. I can't do the math in my head, but that's somewhere in the mid-50s, right? 131, somewhere in the mid 50s, Celsius. Um, and, you know, we do our short ribs a lot in that range, but find that people prefer them up closer to
+
+[42:00] 140, uh, between, you know, 140 and a little over. But I definitely don't think you need to go through like a 1000000 different steps.
+
+[42:11] I think it's going to probably affect it, you know, like you, the more steps, the more chance for things to going wrong, things
+
+[42:17] to, problems. What do you think? No, I agree. Um, and if there's a straightforward way to do it. Um, it's always, almost always the best way to do it. All right, so in the, uh, those are the questions that have come in. so good. We have at least 4 or 5 minutes, we can, what are you working on? Uh, I've actually been taking a little bit of a hiatus for a variety of
+
+[42:43] reasons and um, have not cooked, uh, anything serious in, in like a month. So, uh, but spring is coming and uh, uh, I'm sure that's going to change fast. One thing I'm going to do this coming weekend that I'm looking forward to is head off to
+
+[43:06] Spain for a last meal at El Buy. Because it's for real going to be the last, It's like real deal last now. Uh, yeah, apparently uh, July 30th, I think is the date
+
+[43:22] now. The restaurant will close uh, as a restaurant and then reopen in the next day or 2 as a uh, uh, think tank.
+
+[43:31] So who are you going with? Um, chef out here in California named Daniel Patterson. Love Daniel Patterson. Yeah. Yeah, his restaurant's great. Yeah. And, you know, we worked together. Um, you know, you know, we all did uh, on uh, Mandy Af tells uh, and his uh, taste that, what was it called? Taste this, taste the smell. What was it called? Smell the glove. What was it? Alchemy was in there somewhere. Yeah, alchemy of alchemy of taste and smell. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have any articles in the pipeline that you want to, you want to let out of the bag or you want to keep them in the bag? No, in fact, that's something else I've been taking a height is from. But I'm hoping to get another curious column into the New York Times in about a
+
+[44:16] month. Yeah, people crave it, but you don't know what you're going to do yet. Actually, it's going to be about salt. Oh, yeah? What about it? And like what kind of what kind of aspect? So many aspects of salt. Well, exactly that. The fact that there are now so many salts. Uh, and some people say that they all taste different and that, uh, for example, kosher salt is, uh, horrible stuff nobody should ever touch it. Um, uh, so I'm, I've collected um, probably close to 20 at this and, um, there, there's been a very interesting controlled study with, um, uh, professionally trained taste panel that actually tasted about 20 different salts to see if they could tell the difference.
+
+[45:03] In what form? As a .8% solution. to try to maximize the opportunity to taste the difference because of course, if you're going to take salt and put it in mashed potatoes or something, odds
+
+[45:18] are, you're going to have no clue. Right. And so this is an extension of a project. Was it, was it part of the Eriche things that Steingarten went to, because he was doing it in Eriche years and years ago in his 1st book on Salt. Remember that? That's right. In fact, I remember that tasting very well. Yeah, he arrived with these little vials of some of his favorite salts and some of his least favorites. And then we, there was a sensory scientist who took place,
+
+[45:49] took part in the EREJ meetings every year. And so he organized, uh, a triangle test, uh, where basically you're you're handed 3 little vials, and you have to tell which one is different from the other
+
+[46:03] two. And uh, we, we all took the test in a, in a series of groups, and then they tabulated the results at the end. And it turned out that of the 40 people in attendance, only one person was able to correctly distinguish all of the different salts.
+
+[46:19] And was that a fluke or reliably, repeatedly, was able to do it. Uh, we only did it once. So it may have been a fluke, but because of that one person was Jeffrey Steingarten. Of course, it wasn't. That's hilarious. All right. So we'll be looking forward to that. And so I'll say what I'm working on for the museum fundraiser coming
+
+[46:42] up. I'm doing the Amuse Boosh. We like to, you know, in the back room, we always call it the amuse douche, because I think it's a ridiculous word, a moose
+
+[46:50] boost. Anyway, so the, yeah, the moose douche will be, um, I gave myself food as medicine as my, as my theme, because, you know, everyone has a
+
+[46:59] theme like Chang is doing a pre-19, uh, pre uh, 1491 uh, food
+
+[47:04] in in America. So he's doing oysters and acorns. Wiley's got caveman food, Mark Ladner, Rome, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I gave myself food as medicine. And I'm using an ingredient, I'm using, okay, so
+
+[47:18] it turns out that Bitumen, you know, Bitumen, you know, like pitch? Piss asphalt? Yeah. It's exuded in the Dead Sea area and in Iran, and it's been used as a medicine for centuries, as has a very similar exudate pitch
+
+[47:34] exudate, from the Himalayas called Shilaji, right? And so, which is used in Aerobic medicine a lot. She, the Shilajit is. And so this was mistranslated by from the Arab, because Arab, you know, Arab medicine was the medicine in the, you know,
+
+[47:52] 8900s in that range, right? So this was mistranslated by medieval scholars in like the 11th century, as, because the word in Arabic is mummy,
+
+[48:04] like sounds like mummy, and in fact, the word, English word for mummy is derived from the same root of like this waxy pitch
+
+[48:10] bitimen. Our word comes from it. Uh, Anyway, mistranslated this uh, medicinal ingredient, mummy as ground up uh, human cadavers from Egyptian mummies, and here started the trade in medicinal mummies. So mummies were ground up by the boatload and sold in apothecaries all over
+
+[48:29] Europe. And in fact, they ran out of reliable mummy supplies, so they would make counterfeit mummies by grinding up
+
+[48:38] and and, you know, taking fresh cadavers, drying them out and grinding them up. And so the original pitch, right? Which was the part that the bitumen, which wasn't actually in an authentic mummy because they didn't use bitumen until very late in the mummification
+
+[48:50] process, because it was cheap. You know, they used much more expensive stuff, right? But, um, so it got it changed from the bitumen being the important part of the medicine to the actual corpse.
+
+[49:01] So then it got transmogrified even more so that later on it was found that if someone died very suddenly, in the prime of life, then that's the best mummy that you can get. So for centuries, up until, you know, the prime time was like 16th and 17th century,
+
+[49:17] was prime mummy medicine time. So, but it extended for a long time, plus mummy was used as a pigment up until the early 20th century is that mummy was a specific color of brown made by grinding up mummies.
+
+[49:28] And so, uh, and but it's come full circle again. Oh, so spawned like vampire legends, all sorts of cool, weird, weird, weird, weird stuff, which I think I'm going to write about for the blog, definitely, maybe for somewhere else. And so I've located a source of the Shilajit, which is the one from the Himalayas. It's using Arabic medicine. And so I'm going to have that as mummy. I'm going to put that onto rhubarb that I'm going to cook sous vide because
+
+[49:56] of Francis the 1st of France. always carried with him mummy and rhubarb as some of his medicaments to help him from whatever ailed
+
+[50:06] him. So that's going to be one component is mummy, mummy and rhubarb, and the next component is going to be when he was defeated by Charles V. Uh, they, uh, he was held captive and the Zupa Alla Pavese was invented for, for him at that capture, which is basically bred with
+
+[50:23] uh, an egg that's cooked by broth that's put into shavings of Parmesan. So I'm going to do a little toast with a gelet of broth, a
+
+[50:30] slow done, not really slow, but low temperature done, quail egg, and Parmesan tuile. And so the other 2 components, you will have to come to the fundraiser to
+
+[50:42] taste to. Anyway. So I'm going to thank Harold for being on the show. Hopefully we'll get you in live next time you're in. Hopefully we'll talk to you soon, and we'll leave you with mummies. Cooking issues. Vicious, fish, vodka. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[51:13] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[51:20] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. The following is a public service announcement from the museum of food and drink. Dave Arnold and Patrick Martins have gathered a team of New York's most innovative chefs and bartenders to create a
+
+[51:41] 9 course fundraiser lunch at Del Posto Sunday, March 27th. Their intent to kickstart the greatest food museum in the world. The menu for this unprecedented event is derived from educational themes of the
+
+[51:53] museum. Chefs will draw inspiration from sources outside their normal sphere. How will a cutting edge chef handle the Paleolithic, or a dish only using pre-Colombian ingredients? What will a modern Italian chef do with ancient Rome? The chefs include David Chang of Momofuku, Wiley
+
+[52:08] Dufrayne of WD50, Mark Ladner of Del Posto, Nils Norin of the French Culinary Institute, Cesare Casella of
+
+[52:15] Salumaria Rossi, Carlo Maracci of Roberta's, Brooks Headley of Del Posto, and Christina
+
+[52:21] Tozzi of Momofuku Milk Bar. Bartenders include Audrey Sanders of Pegu Club, Thomas Waugh, Death
+
+[52:27] and Company, Simon Ford of Perneau Ricard, Damon Boltley of Prime Meats, and Ebon Clem of VR
+
+[52:33] guest restaurants. Proceeds from the event will directly support the museum of food and drink. Tickets are very limited, and $250 per person. To purchase tickets, please visit MoFAD.eventbright.com. That's MOFAD.eventbright.com. Once again, M-O-F-A-D dot E-V-E-N-T-B-R-I-T-E
+
+[52:57] dot com. Sponsored by For No Recard, Heritage Foods USA, Pat LaFrida Meats, Barterhouse Wines, Del Posto restaurant.
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+[0:06] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking issues here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in our studio in Bushwick, Brooklyn, behind Roberta's
+
+[0:18] Pizzeria. Coming to you live today, as we should be doing every Tuesday, from 12 to 1245, calling all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Today's show is brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is an agious large, sorry. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural,
+
+[0:39] grass-fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on their rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result was beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as a surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.herstranch.com. That's www.herstranchoneword.com. We've had their beef, right, Nastasia? We enjoy it. Uh, Later on, I'm going to give a shout out to some of our other uh, sponsors on previous
+
+[1:04] shows because they were also sponsors of the amazing event for the Museum of Food and Drink that we just finished on Sunday. Nastasia and I are still recovering. But we'll get to that probably a little later in the show. We'll take some questions first. It came in on the emails. Okay. Chris Beer writes in and says, I was hoping you could help with a question. When I'm making breads, pizza doughs, et cetera. I sometimes like to replace about half the white flour with whole wheat flour, but the dough tends to be dry. Is there a standard ratio of extra fat or liquid that needs to be used when using whole wheat flour? Thanks for the help, crisp beer. Okay. And this is the problem I think that we all run into a lot when we're using whole grain items.
+
+[1:42] There's actually several problems that happen. One, the dough, the breads tend to be drier. That's true. Same with things like pancakes and muffins, things tend to be drier. The 2nd problem is you tend to have reduced volume. So they're denser. So they're denser and drier and also more crumbly. These are 3 things that we in general don't enjoy in our breads and pizza doughs, correct? Correct. Correct. So, um, So what's the problem here? The problem is in whole wheat flour, you get the brand and also the germ, actually, in whole wheat flour. Now, the germ actually helps out a bit in some ways because it provides oil. The reason a lot of oil is added to whole wheat recipes, oils and
+
+[2:22] fats, is because it tends to soften fats in general tend to soften the texture of breads. So they feel softer, they don't feel as dry just by adding oil. So you can add that stuff at your discretion, but the other really good thing you can do to make up for 2 things that you can do to make up for lack of volume and also for
+
+[2:42] dryness is to take the whole wheat portion because he's going to take about half and half whole wheat and white, you know, white
+
+[2:48] flour, is to take the whole wheat flour and hydrate it in all the liquid 1st and let it sit there for a long time.
+
+[2:55] What happens is, is that even though a good chunk of the brand of the fiber in brand is not soluble, i.e.
+
+[3:02] the, it's not going to dissolve in water. There is a bunch of stuff in there that is soluble and water will hydrate, but needs some time to do it. And the more other stuff you have, the more like the rest of the white flowers there, when the liquid is present, the less water is going to be available to soak into the whole wheat portion.
+
+[3:21] So what you should always do with whole wheat products and I do this with pancakes. For instance, my pancakes at home are well over half
+
+[3:28] non-white flour. I throw in wheat germ. I throw in a good bit of like oatmeal and I throw in a bunch of cornmeal, a bunch of other things like this, and whole, whole, whole green. And, um, I add all of the buttermilk at the very outset, along with the
+
+[3:45] eggs, because they're liquid ingredients. And then I let them soak for minutes at a time in a very high liquid environment. And this helps hydrate them and prevents it from being dry. Um, that, you know, that should also improve your, um, it should improve
+
+[3:58] the, the, the, the, not only the moistness, but also the the volume somewhat. The other thing is, is that you're going to tend to want to add a little bit more liquid when you have a high fiber
+
+[4:06] product because the dough is going to probably take on more liquid. One source I read, which is the wheat flour and the high fiber ingredient handbooks from the Egan Press series, and I highly recommend the Egan Press series to all of the people out there. It's a very, very easy to read, very short, not so expensive books on technical
+
+[4:25] issues, such as hydrocoloids, starches, high fiber ingredients, wheat flour, emulsifiers, very good stuff.
+
+[4:32] I mean, you can skip the colorance book because most of us aren't adding a lot of food coloring to things. At least I don't. But you can either buy these books for like 68 bucks or something, a
+
+[4:42] pop, or it used to be, and I'm sure there probably still is. If you go to the American Association of Serial Chemist website, You can sniff around there. It takes a while because they bury it. You can buy a subscription to get online versions of all of these
+
+[4:54] books, which you can then download. And back when I did it, it was 99 bucks. It's probably more. You get a year subscription to their website, and I downloaded all of their books. So I own them all on PDF and they're they're chilling happily on my iPad where I can peruse them at my leisure. Anyway, those are the sources I went to. So you should um, pre-soak, um, add a little more water. And if you're dealing with a bread and you've gotten rid of the dryness problem by the pre-soaking
+
+[5:19] add a little more water, adding oil at your discretion, you can further increase the volume of it, which is going to decrease your perception of it being crumbly and
+
+[5:26] whatnot, by adding a little bit of vital wheat gluten. If you add a little bit of that, it'll counteract some of the problems you have. There's 2 things that go on when you add high fiber, brand laden things to breads. One, uh, in terms of gluten. One, there's less overall gluten because the flour that you've added, instead of adding flour that has whatever percentage gluten it is, you've added a bunch of
+
+[5:46] bran, which has 0% gluten. Second thing that happens is that the brand and the fibers actually inhibit the formation of the gluten network. So what gluten is there is actually weakened. So you end up with a very low air holding capacity compared to white flour. And one of the ways to counteract that is to, you're going to probably have to develop it longer. That means makes it more. And you're probably also going to have to add a little bit of weak
+
+[6:12] gluten if you want to jack that loaf back up to where it used to be. All right? hows that? What was that? was that okay? That was good, yeah. All right. See, back on track after last week's non-live. Although I, you know, I, last week, we did the, uh, we did Nathan Mirvold, uh, you know, Nathan Mirvold's amazing, uh, you know, 8000000 page book that weighs £35,000 and costs like 600
+
+[6:33] bucks, so you get it on Amazon for $450. Um, Anyway, so he's doing his like, he's doing his press junket thing. And so we had to do one on Tuesday where we basically did, we did, what was it, Prosecco and clarify grapefruit juice. It was carbonated, and we'd show the glasses of liquid nitrogen. So that's why we couldn't be here. last week on Tuesday. So unfortunately, even though we had like our heavy hitting guest, Harold McGee on the line, it was on Monday. So not a lot of you, I think, got to call in. So I'm sad about that. But anyway, so we're back on our normal time today. Thank goodness. Okay. Got a question in, uh, saying, I saw this at, hey, Nastasia and David Stars. I saw this pig stuffed pig trotter on ideas and food blog. It looks incredible, and I will read the description, the ideas and food, by the way, there are friends, Alex Talbot Naki, over at
+
+[7:22] ideas and food, and they're probably the best known blog on kind of modern techniques in
+
+[7:28] high tech cooking, right? When you say so? I saw him last week in an event. Also, another one of these Nathan Mirvold events at Jean Georges restaurant. And it was funny. Ideas in food also has a cookbook out now. I think it's doing fairly well, but the funny part was this. I think it retails for like 20 bucks and it's on Amazon for like 14 bucks, right? So I see Alex. I'm like, hey, how's the cookbook doing? And he was upset that I didn't have a copy yet. So I think he's sending us one, which is nice. But he said, yeah, on, if you go to buy the modernist cuisine cookbook, the $450 cookbook,
+
+[7:59] they give you his book for like 5 bucks. Like if you buy it together. It's like 5 bucks extra to get Alex Talbot's book. So here's a word out to you guys. Anyone out there buying the modernist cuisine, please do Alex Talbot a favor and click in the extra 5 bucks to get his book along with it. So Alex Nathan Mirvold and I had a good long laugh about this. And Alex and I were joking that we're just going to take a Sharpie to his entire stock of books and write 7 as like the 7th volume of the Modernist
+
+[8:27] Cuisine. And just ship it a long way. Hey, it's only 5 bucks extra. You know, it's really a drop in the bucket. It's like pissing in the ocean to raise the tide, you know, an extra 5 bucks. Anyways, go out and buy Alex's book. So, uh, here's what they, Alex Naki's book, I should say, apologize. Here's what it says. Pictured here is the rear trotter from the pig. The force meat is flavored with raw salon and an exotic morotic spice blend. We added meat from the shoulder, knuckles and ankles, and just for that extra special something, a few foie gras pieces. We added a touch of Activa. That's meat glue for all of you non-meat glue people out there, as insurance, to bind everything together. Unfortunately, our finished trotter was too large for our vacuum bags. So we divided it into 2 pieces. This allowed us to present the whole foot and fortuitously gave us another piece to enjoy his seconds. Uh, okay, so, uh, stuffed pig trotter, right? The most famous Oh, sorry. And the question about this was he saw it and he wants to know how long to cook it and what temperature, if he's going to do
+
+[9:17] it, low temperature. And he says somewhere in the area of 60 to 65 degrees Celsius for 48 to 72 hours and do I have any advice? I think your numbers are good. I don't think you're going to 60 to 65 Celsius. in other words, I think, are good. I would do something between 60 and 63 Celsius myself, 62, 63. I don't think you're going to need to cook it for 48 to 72 hours. And here's why. I think a lot depends on what size pieces of meat you put into it. The classic pig trotter that, you know, I grew up knowing about is a delicacy, a New Year's Eve,
+
+[9:50] a New Year's Eve delicacy from Modena, Italy, called Zampone. And Zimpone, what they do is they take a pig's
+
+[9:56] trotter, and you bone it completely out, take out all the meat and take off the toenails, and you do it by slowly turning the skin of the pig's foot inside
+
+[10:04] out, and removing the bones, meat, and, you know, all of the connect tissue stuff as you go, so that you basically have the pig's foot as a
+
+[10:13] glove, almost, right? You then take that zempon, the pig's foot that's, you know, been totally denuded, right? Do that raw, by the way. Otherwise, the pigskin's going to be too fragile. break apart on you. And um, take that raw and then uh, stuff it with a mix that's uh, that the sausage is called cotecino. If you just have the meat by itself, without the pig's foot, it's called kotequino. And then you, that's typically cooked, boiled, and then served with lentils on New Year's lentils for luck because it represents money. So, uh, the problem with doing this in the U.S. is that the pigs trotters are slit, typically when they when they get the pigs, the pigs trotters are slit, and so they don't hold the filling as
+
+[10:54] well. But if you have meat glue, you can kind of fix all these problems. And if you look in a Chinese butcher shop, you can get pig's feet that haven't been slit like the regular American style and you can make a good stamponi. As long as the meat is finally divided, you don't need to cook it that long. The length of cooking time really is to gelatinize the starch in the in the pig's foot. And so you can do it by feeling how long it's taking the gelatin, the collagen, and the pig's foot to break down because the meat on the inside is finely chopped and it's not going to be that much of a problem. So I don't think it should take as long as 72 hours, but you know, you can give it a try. I would just as a test before you went through the whole thing. Just throw a piece of pigskin into a bag and test how long it takes for it to get to the texture you
+
+[11:34] want. Um, and that's going to give you a good idea, but uh, go research. Zamponi's cooked for a long time. Like, they boil for, like, 2 to 4 hours. So at simmering temperatures. So give it a shot. And I think it would be delicious in a bag because you wouldn't be leaching the flavor out into the broth. Anyway, I hear we have a collar. Caller, you are on the air. Hi, Dave. Howdy. This is Michael Matkin. I have a question for you about caramelization and a pressure cooker. Alrighty. So I got to see Nathan Mirvold speak a few times lately, and I haven't got to look at the book yet, but he gave sort of a partial recipe for making a caramelized root vegetable soup
+
+[12:12] in the pressure cooker where you don't add any water at all. Right. So you chop up some carrots, you throw them in the pressure cooker, cook a high pressure for 30 minutes and they come out, uh,
+
+[12:21] very, uh, smooth, easy to puree and caramelized. And it works great. It's delicious, but I don't understand why it's working. Right. He refers to it as caramelized, right? Not as my art. That's right. He refers to it as caramelized, and I wouldn't think there's enough protein in carrots to do my art reactions, but maybe I'm wrong about that. That's interesting. I saw him speak a couple times. I had dish. Um, and uh, were you at the Jean George? Which event were you at? No, I was at the book launch in Seattle and also he came to speak of my work a couple times. Right. That's an interesting question because like you, I wouldn't consider I've done some experiments with caramelization in pressure cookers, but most of them were done in very high concentration sugar
+
+[13:04] syrups. So I would throw fruits into high concentration sugar syrups and then pressure
+
+[13:10] cooked those and got definite caramel, like caramel flavors. Like, uh, and this and it, and I did this because I did some experiments with durian removing kind of the stench from durian. And one time, a bunch of the juices went to the bottom of the pressure cooker and were at the exact proper temperature to form a caramel without burning and then was never,
+
+[13:32] never, ever able to reproduce it, unfortunately. But then I started doing like caramelized bananas and other caramelized fruits and high sugar syrups. I don't know why. You would get caramelized flavor in a non, you need, look, as we both know, you need a high enough temperature
+
+[13:50] to, um, unless unless caramelization happens at lower temperatures under pressure, which is possible. Right. So I was wondering if that could be the case. And then the other thing I had noticed is that fructose carol males is at a lower temperature and there is some fructose in carrots, so that could be a possibility. Right. And I don't know, does he add acid to the recipe, in which case you would? No, you don't add anything at all. Yeah. And it really, you know, it definitely has a clear caramelized flavor. And then the other the other question I had about that, because I put this recipe on my website, you know, with the various things that I put in it to make it a nice little moosebouche, and people are concerned about the safety. Now I didn't have any problems at all in my electric cooker. But that's temperature regulated. And I got a little concerned, well, if I tell somebody to do this on a stovetop pressure cooker. without any liquid had it. Is there any risk that's being created there? Well, okay, I, oh, you know what? That's also maybe true. You're going to get localized much higher temperatures. Yeah, right. That's another possibility. Yeah. I mean, you won't in an electric, but in a gas, you will. I asked him, I was in one of the dinners in Seattle. I personally asked him about this. I said, will this work in a gas fired pressure cooker on the
+
+[14:59] stove and he said, yes. I looked around at the pressure cookers that he uses. He has an American canner, one of the big ones, although I doubt he uses this for that recipe because it takes so long for
+
+[15:10] long for those to give up the pressure. I think he has he has a bunch lying around. I'm sure he's got some coon recons because they're awesome. and he can afford it. You know, it's an interesting question. I don't think it's going to be a safety issue because, I mean, there's no there's no safety issue because the worst that's going to happen is you're going to scorch the heck out of your out of your vegetables, right? And because what will happen is, is that the only danger really in a pressure cooker is that you're going to build up pressure.
+
+[15:37] And the pressure relief valves are going to continue to work no matter what. And there's 3 different overpressures on that thing. The gaskets themselves are good up to about 500 and so degrees and so the plastic will be melting off of the unit before the
+
+[15:51] gaskets go on you. And even if the gaskets were going to melt, like they're not made out of viton or something that's going to decompose into a toxic deadly gas. So, uh, yeah, if we, if any one of those things weren't true,
+
+[16:04] like if for some reason someone decided to move to Viton seals, you know, I don't know if they had an excess of money and
+
+[16:09] lack of good sense, like there might be a safety issue, but I think you could basically just melt the pot down on the stove
+
+[16:14] without, without too much of a safety issue. But I'm, uh, you've now, I don't know why I wasn't observant enough to, uh, ask that question at the time. I myself don't own a copy of the book. There is one in the school, so I can go look at it. Unfortunately, right now, as I'm sure if you heard him speak, there's a dearth of the books in the country, you know, there, you know, he likes to say they're literally,
+
+[16:36] like, they're literally on a boat, you know, on a slow boat from China, like quite low. I know. My, my, my order, I keep looking at Amazon waiting for them, you know, my day keeps moving out. Right. I mean, he donated, he donated a book to the museum's auction that we had. And he's like, but, you know, I'll donate it, but you're not going to have it there live because they just don't they don't exist. You know, it's kind of like, uh, it's unbelievable. I think he's actually going to make money off this thing. I know, I know. Well, they've already, you know, started a second printing, so that's pretty incredible. Yeah, 2nd printing of 25,000. That many? Yep. Unfortunately, the paper they're printing on, the 1st paper was Japanese, and they were not able to reach the company on the phone after the
+
+[17:16] tsunami. And so they went with a Chinese paper the 2nd time around. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, thanks for calling in. We hope to hear from you again soon. Okay, thanks Dave. All right. So I guess we should go to our 1st commercial break. This is cooking issues calling all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. And still be you. One that's done, armor rings, you set, I do, stand,
+
+[17:44] there's a crawls, for you, too bad. Things to go if you were going anywhere. Ooh, man, for the things you know, all right.
+
+[18:01] It's the truth, that the truth, makes me so life, stand. All the things you want are real.
+
+[18:34] You've been sitting much too long. There's a fan and a crisp in your right home. There's a midget standing tall. And the giant beside him about the fall. The following is a public service announcement in Heritage Radio Network. Every Sunday at 430 PM, tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house, a weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired and despised. Each week, Curtis B. Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture themes to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms.
+
+[19:28] Again, that's every Sunday at 4.30 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Oh, welcome back to cooking issues. Calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Stand. There's a midget standing tall and a giant beside him about to fall. I have not heard that song in a long time, but that is one hardcore butt kicking tune. It's kind of a, in my head, there's a race between at their
+
+[19:57] funkiest kind of who's the funkiest human of all times. Sometimes I think it's like in the family stone. Sometimes I think it's James Brown. And sometimes I think it's Stevie Wonder. And then every once in a while when I'm in a special weird mood, crank up the housequake and think Prince might be one of the funniest human beings of all time. I'm forgetting Parliament. My brain's all messed up today. Anyway, I appreciate the Sly and the Family Stone. Before I leave the pig trotter entirely. I didn't completely answer the question, there was more stuff. Any other things to keep in mind? Do you think I need transglutaminates or will the trotter hold together well enough on its own? Thank you. And we rock, apparently, Stasi, which I did not know, which I'm glad to hear. And he was also digging the hall notes, but Nastasia decided we're going to switch it up. So we had 2 weeks of hollow notes, and now we're going to slide in the family stone this week. I don't think you're going to need the transglutaminates if you use
+
+[20:48] a ground meat that's been bound by mixing it with salt like you would a traditional sausage unless there's a lot of damage to the actual skin of the pig's trotter itself. If you're using large chunks of meat as they did in the ideas in food picture, then I think a little Activa meat glue would help bind the thing together.
+
+[21:06] I think just the fact that you're going to put it into a vacuum bag, or if you don't have a vacuum bag, roll it in plastic is going to also help keep it together while it's poaching. And so I don't think you're going to have too much of a problem. But hey, it couldn't Hoyt, especially if you're going to do any sort of post searing to
+
+[21:22] it to, you know, that crisp up the outside skin, which I don't think is actually traditional, is it? You don't, the Zamponi? I don't know. I dont know whether you traditionally would do it because I've only ever done it in my house. I've never had it out. You know what I mean? Ive only ever made it myself. Anyway. So I hope that I've almost forgot to finish asking that question. Okay. Now, we have another question. And I probably should have said this one for last because it's got some gross stuff in it. So me and my answer has some gross stuff in it. I work for a French chef, who says, you cannot digest tomato skins. He claims they pass undigested through your digestive tract. Can you please look into this? Mike. PS, you may, this is referring to the blog now. PS, you may as well remove the forums that has been taken over by spam bots, and you ignore the posted questions. Okay, I'm 1st going to answer the PS on that. Mike, we are aware of the problem of the spambots, and I am personally aware of my non-responsiveness problem. Uh, as for the spam boss, we are we are basically uh, trying to get to a position where we can have our webmaster, give control of the forums to a few of our trusted
+
+[22:29] members, like Barzolet and whatnot. And I want them to clean it up. I want the forums to stay alive. It's hard for me to check all that stuff. It's recently because of all the stuff I've been working on hard enough for me to time, in a timely fashion, answer all the blog questions, which I am pledged to do. I will eventually answer every single question posted on the blog, but the forum is getting tough to me. I hope to keep them useful and eradicate the spam bots, and to that end, we are going to give control of those forums to some of the loyal forum
+
+[22:59] folks. We're just waiting for our webmaster to get back from his vacation with his, not vacation, from work. plus he's got a new baby. And so anyway, we're on it and we apologize. As for the 2nd question, I think we might have a call in. I might answer the 2nd part of the question later. Is that true, Jack? Do we have a call? No? No? Okay. So I will answer that question. It is true that tomato skins can pass undigested through your
+
+[23:27] digestive tract. There's 2 main kinds of fiber that we have, right? There's insoluble fiber and soluble fiber. Soluble fiber, things like pectin. They go through, uh, they go through, you know, a lot of your digestive
+
+[23:38] tract undigested, but then get digested by bacteria because of the water soluble in
+
+[23:43] your in your large intestine, and that's things like pectin, right? Then there's insoluble fiber that's basically not water soluble at all and doesn't get damaged by bacteria and basically
+
+[23:54] pass through your intestine undigested, we'll say, right? And there's a lot of insoluble fiber in tomatoes. Like, so some things that are insoluble fiber, are hemicellulose and lignin. So tomato skins have a lot of that in it. Now I was checking basically, what, we have a color. All right, I'll come back and finish this question because it's going to take a while. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, just a quick question. I just recently learned about salt risen bread. Yeah, apparently it's a bacterial action that leaves it or something. But it made me think about, I had another question. What, how come there's such a difference between like soda breads, you know, uh, chemically
+
+[24:35] living breads and yeast breads, like yeast breads are more, is that just the gluten formation? From the yeast or, I mean, I mean... They're fun. They're fundamentally different, right? So a yeast, a yeast one, the volume is provided by the aeration of the yeast that happens inside of an already formed
+
+[24:55] network with gluten, right? Whereas a quick, whereas a quick bread, you could, is not gluten dependent. It's not relying on gluten for its structure. I mean, it helps, obviously, right? and toughens it. But yeah, they're fundamentally different. finish out your finish out your question there. That was just a musing in my head. So there's just less gluten formation with the chemically
+
+[25:20] leavened. Or, I mean, because I mean, yeast breads, it's like almost stringy and chewy, you know, when you pull them apart, but soda breads, they just crumble.
+
+[25:29] You know, there's not that, uh, Right. I don't know. Right. I mean, look, it's certainly possible to do yeast, uh, so for instance, it's not the yeast itself. So when you take, well, all right,
+
+[25:45] there's, there's a bunch of stuff going on, if it's only yeast, you're not going to probably get that much of a pH
+
+[25:50] change. If you, if you're yeast plus bacteria, you're going to get a radical pH shift, which is going to also affect the gluten, make it slacky with that sourdoughy kind of texture,
+
+[25:58] right? So have you ever made, you ever made overnight yeast pancakes? No. Yeah. So you'd make like a regular pancake batter, you add yeast and you let the thing go overnight, and then in the morning, you also usually add a secondary
+
+[26:10] leavener and you make it, and it's got that great yeasty taste, but it's still basically has the texture of a pancake, but it is more like a crumpet at that point.
+
+[26:17] Like it's got that weird kind of bubbly airy thing in it. So, I mean, they're fundamentally different and then a quick, a yeast leavened bread, right, relies on either a gluten formation, gluten network, or some sort of other air trapping network like pentazans
+
+[26:35] in a rye bread, something like that, right? It's relying on a structure to hold the air because the air is being
+
+[26:41] produced, not the air. The CO2 really is being produced over a long period of
+
+[26:46] time, pre-baking, whereas the chemically leavened breads are relying on it on a quick source of aeration that happens at or close to the time of baking.
+
+[26:56] Um, either either through an acid-based reaction or through the heat decomposition of
+
+[27:01] uh, the product into into, you know, salts and CO2. So, for instance, you could probably add a chemical leaven or 2 a... I've never done it, though, to a gluten raised, I mean, to a to a high gluten thing to see what happens, but I think it's just fundamentally a difference in dose structure.
+
+[27:20] Does that make sense? Very cool. You think I'm right? Someone will call in. If I'm not right, someone will call in. And I've never made salt, salt rising bread. Have you ever have you ever tried it? I tried it. Yeah. And it was also kind of crumbly like, um, you know, soda bread and stuff that's, but, uh, yeah, I was just wondering if you had any knowledge or experience on
+
+[27:39] that because I'm. What was the technique? Was it was it was it needed a lot or no? No idea. I just, I mean, I saw it at this festival and I got a loaf and I tried
+
+[27:48] it. I'm like, well, that's interesting. And I Wikipedia, and that's about it. All right. So, uh, so Nastasia, put that on our list of things to, uh, you know, that's the thing I wish McGee, I'm sure, has tried that a bunch of times. Anyway, so we'll we'll we'll try to look into it. My memory serves me, which is doing less and less these days. I will, yeah, because tomorrow's my 40th birthday, so my brain is starting to fester. Happy birthday. Oh, thanks, thanks. So, yeah, so next time I speak to McGee, I'm going to try and get him on that and we'll try to include that on our list of things to research. Yeah, I meant to call you last week. Sorry about that. Yeah, no problem, no problem. Yeah, because you know what? We actually get a lot of, a lot of our interesting ideas come out of questions like this. So we're definitely going to look into it. Thanks so much for the call. No problem All right. Now, back to tomato skins. So I forget where I left off, so there might be some overlap. So there's a lot of hemicellulose and things like that. Hemicellulose and liignant being 2 of the primary insoluble fibers. And they pass through your system relatively unscathed, especially if they're not masticated, i.e.
+
+[28:46] chewed or blended, right? So yes, you can see tomato skins in your poop. But, um, they, uh, they're not in any way, they're not in any way harmful. I looked up. Unfortunately, my the person whose internet access to all of the good scientific journals that I've been stealing for years, their password
+
+[29:07] changed, and I haven't been able to get the new password yet. I'm kind of out in the dark as regards my usual ability to research things on the
+
+[29:15] internet. It's kind of pathetic. I'm 40 years old and I'm stealing somebody's password to get to scholarly articles. It's kind of like the equivalent of living in my mom's basement. But, uh, no offense to anyone's, you know, living in their mom's basement. offense. What? Offense. Well, Nastasia has a fence. I don't. Anyway, so, but one of the articles I was able to find was change in the bioavility, bioavailability of the proteins and tomato processing waste from 1996 that point to the fact that the tomato, tomato skin and seeds are relatively undigestible, and a relatively new
+
+[29:49] one, by came out in 2010 by Garcia Herrera, where they measured it, and they said there's a relatively high percentage of insoluble fibers in tomato,
+
+[30:01] peel, tomato skin. And so yeah, it's going to pass through. Now, here's the problem. There's a bunch of people out there, and this is what you, if you search tomato skin. You're going to come up along this website called Cure Zone. And what a good chunk of these people on cure. And I don't know anything about the cure zone people. So if you guys are cure zone people, you want to call and tell me what it's all about. Tell me. But it seems like a bunch of people that I saw who are obsessed with their poop. So what they do is, is they'll take some sort of like colon blow, you know, cleanse
+
+[30:28] situation, and then they'll examine their poop in detail to see what kind of went through
+
+[30:33] it. And a lot of these guys are petrified of this parasite called, uh, Akinostoma, uh, uh, recurvatrum, which apparently looks, it's
+
+[30:45] a, it's a fluke, a worm. And it looks a whole hell of a lot like a tomato skin. But everyone thinks that they have this and they're backed up by a lot of research amongst the same people, but not a whole lot of medical doctors calling in,
+
+[30:57] right? So it's like people like Nastasia here who have, what have you self-diagnosed yourself with recently, everything, right? But yeah, you don't remember because it's like every day she comes in, she's like, my nose is
+
+[31:09] going to fall off in the next week. I sure of it. Anyway, there seems to be a whole lot of self-diagnosis of this acinostoma fluke. And but most of the people, I think, who are saying it, like, don't live anywhere near a place where you would get it, for instance, in certain places in Asia and things
+
+[31:25] like that. So I would assume that if you're looking at your poops, it's tomato skins and
+
+[31:30] not worms. Because there's a whole lot of things that can pass through your system undigestion, especially if you're taking something like colon blow, which
+
+[31:40] decreases transit time. That's a polite way of saying all this stuff. If you decrease transit time, by the way, there's an incredibly cute little girl who's like putting her face into the window as
+
+[31:48] we're speaking here. Anything that you can do to decrease the transit time means you're going to digest this stuff even less and it's going to come out looking more and more whole
+
+[31:58] gross, gross. another break. All right, we're going to go to our 2nd commercial break. Calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Sorry to gross you out, cooking issues.
+
+[32:15] It is good.
+
+[32:31] I'm gonna take you
+
+[32:51] Boom, like a little, like a boom, like a little...
+
+[33:00] Oh, yeah, welcome back to cooking issues. Boom lock, a lock, a lock, a boom lock, a lock, a lock. That is a good song. Want to take it home? I wish the listeners could have seen Dave bouncing on the chair. and Nastasia standing still there. I'll tell you what, to go back to, to go back to, yes, you know, yes, this is true, bouncing up and down, but it goes back to the gross stuff we were talking about just before the break. That song, uh, the reason I like that song so much, besides from the the severe butt kicking that it gives everyone is the base trombone in that thing, which, uh, just really fills out the bottom end of that song, and like, uh, you know, that kind of song, when you play it loud enough, it's like, it's a, uh, a butt rumbling thing. So it fits with, it fits with the, with the thing. why you like the other song. Why? Stand. I'm the midget standing tall, giant beside of about the tall. say that? I think so. one of the greatest lines of all time. I wonder what Sly and the fan. I wonder what Sly is up to these days. I hear he's a producer now. He was in prison for a while. Why is he singing backup for Elton John? Come on. seriously? Really? Nastasio just having seen Elton John in concert. Okay. So here's an update. We talked about radiating corn with atomic weapons, and also the corn mutations and trunk and corn. So, uh, a friend actually of nastasias from childhood named Dev
+
+[34:22] wrote in and said, uh, he hopes is all is well, which it is. Uh, he just stumbled onto our podcast last week. And he's a biochemistry nerd and he thinks he has a partial answer for my corn question about using radiation to get sweet corn. Radiation treatment is a common way to do a mutagenic screen. And this was one of the message that Nobel Barbara McClintock was able to discover mobile genetic elements
+
+[34:43] transposeons. These transposons are why corn kernels have such heterogeneous heterogeneous kernel colorings. Not each kernel is an exact united copy of the entire plant. As far as whether it was used for shrunken two, which is the gene that helps super sweet corn be super sweet, in particular, I don't know. It is possible. That strange seems to have been around since the 40s. I think late, late 40s, early 50s might have to re-reearch my stuff. But it may have been an existing strain and was just 1st described in the literature that way. The biochemistry of that strain is pretty interesting too, but I can tell you about that later, which I hope you do. He does have a question for us, not so much a question, but a dare. You've done inhibitors of sweetness and sour, turning into sweet, that's miraculous, and the sweetness inhibitor is genemic acid, which you can actually buy,
+
+[35:25] turns out, in air Vedic shops. You't need to go to, uh, like online herb shops. You can go into Kalustians or the Dual Spike specialty shop here in New York and buy
+
+[35:34] Geneemia Sylvestri and take it and obliterate your sweetness. You can look it up on our blog. We have a post on it. You should do bitter inhibitors, bitter blockers. I know these are additives to some medicines to make them go down better. Give it a try. And he hopes to hear from us. Well, we actually have tried it, but we tried it as part of someone else's experiment. Uh, Francis Lamb on uh, it was a salon.com, right? That thing was on? on salon.com. That's hilarious. Everyone should go right now after they listen to us. Don't leave right now. to Francis Lamb, who's we like him a lot. good writer on salon.com. and he was doing a bitter blocker, test, adenosine monophosphate, and he brought it in, and we tested it with a bunch of different products that were bitter to see how they affected
+
+[36:16] it, and they were all affected to, they were affected to greater or lesser degrees. And I think part of the problem with bitter blockers is that unlike sour and sweet, where we have basically, you know, one or a few receptors, right? There are like over 50 kinds of receptors for bitterness. And so I doubt that there's necessarily going to be a broadband bitter blocker that's going to knock everything down, the way that you can literally obliterate your sense of sweetness with
+
+[36:42] genemic acid. We were not able to completely obliterate the bitterness of things like coffee.
+
+[36:49] What else do we test? Chocolate. Although beer, although we were able to affect them. It also, the bitter blocker that we use, the Dennessy monophosphate seemed to be much more dose and time dependent and also seemed to increase as you took more and more of it than we took much more than the recommended daily allowance of that stuff. But seem much more dependent on those kind of factors than gymnamic acid, which just it's like bonehead simple. You take it, everything's gone. Or miraculous, you know, where you take it and, you know, it definitely has an effect no matter what the sour thing is that you're adding.
+
+[37:24] It has an effect. So we have experimented with it, but I didn't feel it was right to write about
+
+[37:29] it since it was Francis's thing, and his article is far more hilarious than anything I could
+
+[37:33] have, um, said about it. Uh, Braski writes in. I'm not smart enough to actually make this into a question. I'm sure you are. You know, he's being humble again. But, and this came in, what? think it's a girl. It's a she? I think it's a she. Well, I'm sure she's smart enough. Brasky sounds like I was thinking of it as a 1st name. It sounds like a first. Yeah, right? Okay, it's the last name. Okay. Came in yesterday, but too late for Harold and I to get a hold of. Do you have any suggestions for improving beef at home? Is there a way to uncork beef that's gone flabby and purple? My friend is a grass-fed beef farmer, getaway farm in Nova Scotia. And while the beef is quite good, I often think it would be best if grain finished, but he
+
+[38:10] says it's really hard on the cow's stomachs and removes most of the healthiness of grass-fed beef. Uh, in their, uh, she or he. Is it she? Oh, hey, he's a huge fan of our work. Good. Here's here's the deal. It is hard on the cow's stomach over long periods, but there's no question that it does fatten them up quickly, which tenderizes them. As for the healthiness. I'm not sure, um, I'm not sure I'm a believer in any health claim on uh, beef, either pro or anti. I eat beef because I really like it a lot. Grain fed beef tends not to need as much aging to get it to be tender because usually it's more inherently
+
+[38:48] tender because it's just been fattened up with grain. Now, if it's gone, flabby and purple. I, assuming that it's being aged in a uh, in a cryo bag, and you should be able wet aged, if it's going purple, in which case you should be able to get it back in fairly good shape just by getting it out of the bag and letting
+
+[39:06] it uh, dry out, because regular dry aging, right? has 2 different processes. One, the purpleness is probably coming from a lack of oxygen from being inside of the bag, right? That's what purple comes from, usually. Um, so, uh, the flabbiness could be because the moisture has been staying in there too long. You know, it's too much moisture in there. So dry aging does 2 things. One, it tenderizes the meat by having enzymes continue to act on the
+
+[39:29] meat and thereby break down the proteins, right? And two, it tends to dry out the meat slightly, which increases the flavor because what's being removed is water, which is relatively flavorless. So in general, I think grass fed beef, in order to be really delicious, should be aged, dry age, preferably. And then the challenge becomes with dry aging grass fed beef that it typically doesn't have a large fat cap on the outside because it hasn't been finished with grain.
+
+[39:56] And if you age something, it doesn't have a large fat cap on the outside, it tends to lose moisture too quickly, and you lose a lot of the meat on the outside, which then is a problem with
+
+[40:05] cost, and also a problem with, well, it's mainly a problem with cost, because the fat keeps the moisture in, and allows the enzymes to work for a long time without a radical amount of moisture loss.
+
+[40:16] That said, um, you know, that whether you want grass fed or you want grain fed is largely a matter of taste. I know some people who really just love the taste of grain fed
+
+[40:26] beef, and, you know, they're not too concerned about what it's going to do to the cow's
+
+[40:31] stomachs since they're about to take a captive bolt gun and shoot it in the head anyway. Um, is that callous? What, that's the truth. You know, people need to realize we're killing animals when we're eating meat. Anyway, I hope that at least somewhat answers the question. Okay, and I think we've taken care of all the mailing questions, which means we can use the last portion of this
+
+[40:49] show, unless there's a caller at 718-4972128, 718-4972128. unless there's a question, we can spend the rest of the time talking about our awesome fundraiser that we had on Sunday, right?
+
+[41:01] Yeah, it was awesome. We kicked us. Yeah. I don't think you're allowed to say that on the air, but yes, we did. No, I realized if Eater can use it, we can, right? Oh, Eater can. yeah Look, don't take our word for how awesome it was. Go on eater.com, go to timeout New York. Did food and wine put anything up on their blog yet? Daniel Gritzer? Anyway, um, so Heritage Foods, right? Our parent here was one of the sponsors, as was Pernod Ricard, who gave us all the
+
+[41:26] booze, and the barter house, which is one of our, you know, the fine people behind the wine booza, which you should all go by. They gave us a bunch of good wine. Pat Lafrida gave us the meat. We was at Del Posto, the French culinary. You're going to go to our website soon and see all of the all of the sponsors and like a complete rundown of what we did. But basically, I'm going to give you the rundown on what the what the food and drink was. I'm not going to talk about the mummy powder because I already talked about the mummy powder last week, and you can go to the blog for more, but Cesare came in with a whole passel of awesome cured meats.
+
+[42:00] So, you know, mainly prosciutto, Parmigiano, and some really, really good salumi. I didn't even ask the name. I was too busy shoveling it in my face to kind of ask the name for it. Um, we then had, uh, um, coming in after that, we had Nils
+
+[42:16] did hit. I gave him fad diets and he did something called the real South Beach diet, which was a cabbage soup and a Cuban sandwich because South Beach diet has cabbage soup, and he says in South Beach with
+
+[42:25] they're really eating his Cuban sandwiches. So it was like the flavors of Cuban sandwich and then a shot of like a pureed cabbage soup that was was delicious. And then next, uh, Damon
+
+[42:35] Bolte came out with a Martel and orange, basically like an old, old-fashioned kind of thing, which was freaking delicious. They had a bunch of that. And we served with that was Carlo Marachi came out with his lamb and mint, which was like a mint jelly and yogurt. This was based on New York circa, like 1780s, and like a little piece of
+
+[42:53] lamb, breast that was like searing all sides. Great stuff, right? Then after that, Eben Clem, bartender came out with his ketzicottle drink. That was good. So he grew his own corn. I don't know where the hell he grew his own corn, but he grew his own corn and made sort of a corn,
+
+[43:09] like Orchada thing and put a little bit of licorice in it by using absinthe and then with vodka to booze it up because that's Eben. You know Evan can't do anything without boozing it up. So he served that as a foil to Dave Chang's dish, which was called,
+
+[43:24] it's a shame we know more about dinosaurs and about what Native Americans ate. And he called up a guy. He wanted to be actually Hudson, like what they ate here in Manhattan. And his thing, he spent like hours and hours researching. He called every Native American tribe leader from here to here to hell and called up like, you know, anthropologists and archaeologists and
+
+[43:44] everything. And turns out that we know Jack Squat about how this stuff was prepared and eaten, we just know what they ate. And so he called up, we all, we know that the oysters were bigger because we have the shell mittens, middens. So he called up a friend of his who's an oyster producer in up in Long Island, like old school
+
+[43:58] Blue Point oysters. And he's like, keep some growing for a lot longer. And so, because we told him early what he was going to do. And these oysters were some big oysters. They're the biggest oysters from this coast I've ever seen, ever. And he cooked them because the Native Americans cooked them. And he served them with acorns and dried berries.
+
+[44:16] Uh, with like some some like uh, greenery on top. And that was very interesting. He took it like, like he was the most kind of literal interpretation. I think Carlo as well. what was going on, but, you know, fascinating, fascinating stuff. After that, we had an auction where we auctioned off like a Nathan Mirvold, Chris Young book, a poly-science circulator. I lost my voice during the auction because I went crazy. What? Where is it? Which. Circulator. I don't know. We apparently we've lost the circulator. I hope not. We'll have to find it. But the we auctioned off a signed chef's jacket for 900 bucks, which was awesome. We then did caveman food, and Thomas Watt from Deafen Code, did Pierre Jouet Champagne, and Lindemann's Pesch Lambic Beer.
+
+[44:55] because he's like, I don't know, it was fermented. It was delicious. Delicious. You got to know Thomas for that to be funny, but anyway, and then Wiley came out with like a crazy plating contrastion looked amazing. He made fake, he wanted to do bone marrow because it was like cavemen like eating bones. So he made a fake bone marrow out of, out of, like a buff fake bone out of potato,
+
+[45:17] which, you know, he said basically they used tubers. They didn't use potatoes. But since we don't know what tubers they ate. It might as well be a potato. And then it looked just like the outside of a bone. And then he filled it with bone with a bone marrow mix that he made. And then he had like, instead of like blood from the animal, he had like a beet puree because they would have had roots and things they would have ate as well. He then took a gnocchi mushrooms and dehydrated them to look like twigs like they were like lying around on the ground. They looked freaking amazing. And they had some sort of like edible grass on top of that. So it looked pretty damn cool, right? Yeah. Yeah. Then came ancient Rome. And Audrey Saunders came on board with her Madeira Martinez, which
+
+[45:54] was, like, it was basically Madeira, and bay leaf infused gin. That was some delicious, delicious business. I drank a little much of that one. And then Mark came out. Ladner from Del Posto, the home chef, with, I swear to God, a whole ostrich showed up with a whole ostrich. And then we had another one cooked and served, you know, with spice like Roman style on bread, like almost like on trenchers. Like, I didn't know they did that in Rome, but I get, yeah, I said, I didn't know that. But kind of like trenchers in medieval times. So that was that was amazing. The dish was called Big Bird. And then after that, came the desserts. And the 1st thing that went out was an espresso martini to kind of reinvigorate everyone. The Kentagotta put out. That was also delicious. It was espresso martini with Sinaar, China. I brought it China, which is an artichoke liqueur that was absolutely great, and that was paired with Brooks Hedley, who
+
+[46:48] did basically a sweet dessert made of fried artichokes because his was Hebrew food in Italy. So he was taking, that's basically an old, it's like, what is it, kachofiola Judah, which is a Jewish, like a recipe, and then sweetened it with a
+
+[47:02] matzo and made a matzo, matzo ricotta ice cream, and apparently it was delicious, but since no one saved me any, I didn't get to try
+
+[47:09] it. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Then I served a Martel Cognac Martel Cordon bleu with a mana. mana from heaven. You can find it on our blog. It's some real business. You know, it's like dried up, you know, dried up plant sap that God sent to save the Israelites, if you believe in that sort of thing. And Tozi sent out space food, which was, uh, she did a her take on um, astronaut ice cream, Neapolitan ice cream. Everything was delicious. Everything was amazing. And a big, big thanks. We had actually some people from the listeners from the radio show who came. Ken Inberg came, Colin Gore came. We thank you very much. Ariel from UC Davis came. The other guy was Brian Corey. Brian Coreo came? or his dad came. They both came? He didn't say hello, did it? The whole family came? Anyway, amazing. Thank you so much. We hope to do it again in 6 months on the West Coast for anyone that listens on the West Coast. Listeners can't see, but I'm crying in the booth. Oh, yeah, because Jack didn't get to go. He was here busy doing radio. because he didn't he that so he didn't get to go, even though he was obviously we wanted him to come. So he missed out on what turned out to be one of the most epic lunches of
+
+[48:15] all times. And this has been... I had a Roberta's pizza. No, Roberta's Pizza's also delicious. Also can be epic. Anyway, that is this week's cooking issues. Come back next week.
+
+[48:31] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[48:48] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Got my head all twisted. And a guest can't get it straight. Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you dirty rap. Got me on.
+
+[49:20] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. The SnackyTunes compilation has arrived and is available for free on our website,
+
+[49:29] heritageradionetwork.com. It's compilation features live performances from some of the hottest acts around today.
+
+[49:35] including midnight magic, surfer blood, overhopper, and more. Again, you can download this compilation for free on our website, heritageradionetwork.com, and make sure to listen to
+
+[49:47] snacky tunes every Monday at 2 PM on Heritage Radio Network.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] Hello and welcome to another late session of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio network. I'm Dave Arnold. You're a host of Cooking Issues here with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, Freshback from her trip to California, to visit her parents for her birthday, almost a month prior to her birthday.
+
+[0:23] How was that trip, nostalgia? Good. Yeah, good? So, uh, please call in all of your cooking-related questions. Do
+
+[0:31] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So last week we had a question from actually a telephone question from, I forget who what their name was, but they had a question about salt rising bread. And salt rising bread is a unique kind of bread that dates at least back in this country anyway. at least to the 1840s, 1850s. And it's basically died out almost everywhere, except for in certain places like Western New York. So I said, which was truthful. I don't know anything about it, right? So I made some, which is the reason why I'm late, by the way. That's why I'm late today. Now, in fact, I didn't get to make it 100% like it was supposed to. Um, I didn't get a chance to go all the way through the proofing. I kept waiting for it to finish its proofing and the proofing time of this kind of bread is very variable. So anyways, I had to throw it in the oven too early. Also, I didn't add any crush treatment, like an egg wash or anything to it. So the top is rather sallow. And I pulled it out of the oven and literally put it into a metal box and ran
+
+[1:33] to the studio. So that's where I'm late. So Nastasia and I are going to try it. It's still hot, but it's cool enough to touch. Ow. And I brought some butter. Ah, well, that looks okay, right? Right, Nastasia? Yeah. Looks all right. Put some butter on some of this and break off a piece and let's try it. after you try it, we'll talk about it. Okay? Meanwhile. This is the 1st week that I'm doing the radio show as a 40-year-old, right? Yeah, right? So, uh, auspicious beginning to my 5th decade on this planet on the way biking home from work on my birthday, I got doored by
+
+[2:14] a uh, by an SUV and flipped over into the street and all mangled and bruised. a good way to start, right? It's a good start to your 5th decade. I think so. more of the same, right? Like why should life change just because you get older. Anyhow, and another thing, this is the 1st show where Nastasia actually currently is no longer an employee of the French
+
+[2:34] Culinary Institute. God. Uh, and I am uh, I am now uh, an independent contractor. So I'm officially in business for myself now, as well as still a director of culinary technology. So it's a good day, right? By the way, whose cooking issue is being brought to us by today, Jack? Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch. I don't have the words to read about Hearst Ranch, but Hearst Ranch is, I believe, one of the oldest, uh, privately owned, uh, kind of
+
+[3:03] a meat farms in the in the country, right? And they have a huge range of delicious grass fed cow that I've eaten. And this stuff's really good, right? And they've been a long time sponsor in front of the show. And their website is www.herstranch.com. Am I correct, Jack? Yes, okay. So now we're tasting our salt risin bread. What do you think, Nastasia? Our needs more salt. Well, interesting. We'll get into that. We'll get into that. Excuse me, I'm eating. So one of the peculiar things about salt risin bread is it has, if you smell it, a cheesy aroma, a very, very particular cheesy aroma. This particular one's under risen. Oh, I think we might have a collar, in which case I will describe the bread in a moment. Jack, do we have a collar? Hmm? Yep, color, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Um, my name's Norm from Seattle, Washington, and um, I have got myself, uh,
+
+[4:05] Bron Thermo Mixer, that I was able to get working again. used one. And um, I was uh, gonna try my 1st uh, chances to be, be very careful, of course. And, um, I've got myself a, a brisket here. Actually, it's a corned beef that I was going to try, and I was just, Tom, hoping you might give me a couple pointers to get me
+
+[4:28] on my way. Sure. Now, for those of you out there, Braun thermal mixer is not this not nearly the same thing as a thermal mix, as the Europeans know it. A thermal mix is a European piece of equipment that's a blender slash heater slash scale.
+
+[4:44] They're not really that popular in this country because they're very expensive here in the US, but they're extremely popular in Europe. Um, where they don't have Vitapreps, which are extremely popular here. anyway. The Braun Thermomix, or more properly, the B-Bron Thermomix is an old style. It's an old company that made B-Bron made circulators back in the day, and they haven't been made for a long... I am assuming yours is the is the classic B-Bron green, right? Yep, it's 1419 people on green, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, they're like a cool green color. I had a couple of those that actually were harvested from the naval labs at Pearl Harbor, which
+
+[5:22] was kind of interesting. Mine, yeah, mine were built in the, I believe, early, early 80s, and they lasted a good long time. Does yours have a digital readout or the click, the one where you click it in with a thumb dial? It's got, yeah, it's got the knob dial. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what my, one of my questions was, it didn't look like I was able to get a really good uh, 10th of a green, uh, control. It's maybe maybe .5 degrees plus or minus, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, good news is that's good enough. It's probably, I mean, these things, as they age, they might have some drift in, you know, in their calibration, not probably from the instrument itself, but maybe from the electronics, because I don't know how they're
+
+[6:03] calibrated. So I would take it before you do anything and do an ice water bath. you know, and just make sure that it registers at zero. In general, what goes bad on those circulators, the motor will eventually wear bad now. If you had one that was used for not very much, and there was mothballed relatively early in its lifetime, it could still have many good years of life ahead of it.
+
+[6:24] But typically... Yeah, well, so I had one that I kept alive. Don't tell anyone this. Of course, I'm telling everyone this. I had one that I kept alive for a long time with little squirts of... I mean, I didn't have any food grade lubricant on me, so I used WD 40 just to kill the bearing squeal. But that is how those things typically, when they die, that's how they die. They die through loss of a bearing, because the bearings that were used back in those days weren't sealed the same way that
+
+[6:49] they that the new ones are. The new ones very rarely have bearing faults, you know, or at least I've used them for many years without having bearing
+
+[6:57] faults, unless you do something really nasty to them. Okay? So that's, how much did you pay for it? if you mind my asking? Oh, I got it out of the garbage. Awesome. All right. So, like, anything that gets gravy out of it. in other words. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Was it really encrusted with oil? One of mine had been running oil for a long time. was a real pain to clean out. No, no, actually it cleaned up really well. Little bit of water scaling is pretty much all I had. Um, so it, um, this was, you know, um, from a laboratory. So, um, I'm thinking it was, didn't have. Yeah, I didn't see oil on it at all. Nice. Okay. Yeah, well, no, some of ours, some of ours labs ones I got were running oil baths and that's why they had the oil on them. So it looks like you're in good shape and as long as the bearings, are they squealing or they just, you can hear the motor turn. Um, well, it's um, it's kind of a, a little bit of a grindy squeal,
+
+[7:46] not, not squeal, but more kind of a, kind of a grind. Here, why don't I just do this? Oh, yeah. You hear that? Yeah, and then it smooths out after a minute. Yeah. So what's going to happen eventually is your bearing is going to fail there. I would try to grease it a little bit, which is gonna make it last for a while. But I even, I've even had one, once run in restaurants for a little while like that, but that's going to be the mode of failure of
+
+[8:16] that guy. Uh, but, you know, he's, you know, it's probably lived a long and honorable life deck. Okay, so back to your other question of the brisket. The brisket's already been cured, right? Okay, now, how you do this depends a lot on what you want the texture of it to
+
+[8:29] be. Do you want it to be more like a traditional brisket texture or do you want to achieve kind of one of these real
+
+[8:34] low temperature textures that people are doing? So typically, I'll tell you what I do. I don't cook a lot of brisket, but I'm going to equate it to a short rib for you. How about that? So in a short rib, right, you're gonna want to, you can, I don't do any temperatures below about 57 because I find that nobody wants this stuff really rare, bloody rare,
+
+[8:54] right? So no one wants it in like the 55 I'm in Celsius, by the way, 55 Celsius range. You can cook the stuff down there, but here are 2 problems you might have. You're gonna, if you're gonna cook at a very, very low temp, I would suggest
+
+[9:07] initially, uh, doing a quick dunk into uh, simmering water, like, you know, maybe like 15 to 30 seconds or something like that, and that is
+
+[9:16] to, um, that's to kill the bacteria on the outside. Now, if you're only doing one, that's not a big deal, but if you're doing more than one and you don't do that and the bags are touching each other, the lactic acid bacteria that are alive on the inside of the bag can get a chance to grow before the temperature gets high enough to kill them.
+
+[9:33] And I especially see this and people that cook long-term things below about 57 degrees Celsius. So, uh, like if you're going to go below 57, I would do like a quick, uh, like a quick dip in simmering water or else, um, you know,
+
+[9:48] pre-seering helps, but, you know, the stuff still in the, uh, in the, you know, in the sauce, right? So, um, don't overcrowd it and, and, and I typically go above 57 anyway. So 57 is about the lowest that I'll do like a short rib. And a brisket might be around the same thing. For 57 degrees, you're going to want to shoot anywhere between 48 and probably 60 hours in that range.
+
+[10:13] So you're going to have to get a feel for it. You can feel it in the bag as it goes at 48 hours, it will at that temperature. It will still have quite a bit of toothy bite to it. By the time you get to the upper range of that, and definitely by the time you get to 72 hours, It's gonna, in my taste, be kind of mushy. It will have lost its texture, which I don't find pleasant. Some people like it, right? I don't find it pleasant. In general, I find people like the slightly beefier flavor you get out of something that's like 60 degrees.
+
+[10:42] So it's 60 degrees Celsius, which is 140. I would cook it for about 2 days. And then progressively as you go higher, you can cook it less and less. I wouldn't cook it much above 63 or 64 because anything above that, I would just assume cook it traditionally. Does that make sense? Hello? Yeah, here. Yeah. All right. So I would try I would try those. I would try those ranges and see how they... Yeah, I think about 60 degrees for 48 hours and yeah, that sounds good now. Are you, if I do add that, uh, blanching,
+
+[11:16] the, the dip, um, you know, re, uh, remove anything. Do you, uh, think I should make up any kind of sauce, like with the, the, um, spice packet that's, uh, comes with it, uh, to, to put around it in the bag or just,
+
+[11:27] just dip it, throw it in the bag and go for it? Yeah, you can put this. put the spices on it. Maybe cut it back a little bit if you're going to vacuum it down a little bit back from normal and make sure that you don't put a lot of liquid in the bag or it's going to taste really poached, right?
+
+[11:40] Reduce any liquid that goes in and reduce it because if you're going to cook traditionally, you're going to be evaporating liquid off and in the bag you won't. Wonderful. All right. Well, give it a shot. Tell me how it happens. Good luck with your therm mix. Okay, thanks. All righty. Oh, we're going to our 1st commercial break. This has been cooking issues. Oh, still our cooking issues going to our 1st break. What? Oh, there's Colorado. take a caller and then we'll take a break. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave. Howdy. This is Mike, I'm a brewer in a commercial brewery and been listening to your podcast law and was intrigued by the raw food discussions you were having. And as a thought experiment here at the brewery, we were just kind of thinking, would it be possible to brew a raw beer? I know, the main problem, I was thinking, you know, the alpha amlase and beta
+
+[12:28] amlace to convert the mash is normally done pretty high, you know,
+
+[12:32] 150, 160. But then I was thinking, you know, with the, like, chicha and these, uh, early primitive beers where people would just chew on, you know, the starch, the corn or whatever, that the alpha
+
+[12:46] amlace and the saliva would break it down. So I was thinking you might be able to get conversion of a mash at 118.
+
+[12:53] What do you think? Yeah, you know, the profiles might be different, right? I mean, I don't think you'd get what, here are the problems is I see it and you know, I'd love to hear what you had to say about it. First of all, I think the both of us find it hilarious. I find hilarious. I'm sure you do too, that you're not that you would typically use temperatures that are higher than raw food would allow in order to activate an enzyme and the whole purpose of raw food is to keep enzymes alive. So I find that amusing. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah. And by the way, for those of you listening, we're not welching. We just had to post, but we're still doing the raw food, the raw food thing. It's gonna come up very soon. Okay. I would assume that, yes, those enzymes are going to work. It's just, you know, you're going to be, you're going to be thrown off your, your times and the, uh, you know, and obviously you might not get the, you know, you're shooting for
+
+[13:39] uh, the mash temperatures that are going to get the right balance of the alpha and the beta amylases working for
+
+[13:45] you so you can get the right, um, the right breakdown products that you want. Aside, I mean, mashing, I'm sure you could get to work, right? at 112 or whatever it is that they want you to eventually. I don't know that you're going to get complete conversion, but the real problem is, is you're not going to be able to boil
+
+[14:01] the, the, uh, the boil it afterwards. Well, I was thinking you could sterile filter the work. Right. And then add maybe a CO2 hop
+
+[14:11] extract. Do you know if when they do those, do you know if they uh get above 118 for those? I assume it's all cold side, right? With a liquid CO2. Yeah, they are, right. I mean, that's from my experience, from my knowledge of the system, it's all done. Um, it's all done cold. And did they sell that? They sell the, um, they sell the, um, yeah. Huh. Now, the only thing I was worried about is, you know, the lacto lactobacillus is really going to be rocking at one, 115, 118. You know, is there any way to that you would inhibit that? So to let the uh, you know, the alpha and beta do what they can at that temperature?
+
+[14:49] Because otherwise it's just going to be sour with it, you know, long before I think the starch is converted. Right. I'm thinking now as we're as we're talking. I'm thinking about it. And, um, I'm trying to think of something that's not going
+
+[15:01] to also later inhibit yeast or that you can remove, that is going to, um, prevent lactic
+
+[15:09] acid, uh, uh, from appearing in there. Hmm. Hmm. Have you thought of anything or no? No, really, you know, the chemical side of things were not really involved with at all. Um, so, I don't know. It was more of a thought experiment of, you know, could we do it if we wanted to? Obviously, we wouldn't, you know, be able to make a great beer, but I just thought it would
+
+[15:32] be not that I even want to encourage that kind of behavior from these raw foodies because like you say, it's just ridiculous. You know, all the enzymes that we use in brewing don't even start till above
+
+[15:43] 118, except for maybe, you know, some beta glucinase or something. Right. I mean, but it's a really interesting problem. And you could actually, I mean, you know, whether or not you personally or interesting. You could open up a separate market segment off if it's possible because, you know, you go to these places and they have basically wines.
+
+[16:00] They don't have any liquors because they haven't picked up on rotary evaporation yet. So none of them have done that that I know of. You know what I mean? So I'll definitely be drinking homemade liquor off, done off of raw approved wines when I'm when I'm doing the raw food diet. But beer is an interesting, an interesting problem. I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head, and you're going to have the, the main problems are going to be during the, the mashing. I don't have filters that I would trust to filter it out afterwards that weren't going to clog like a lunatic, but if you have them, you could
+
+[16:27] definitely, definitely do it. Um, have you ever just had, like, uh, you ever just, like, uh, also your, the other problem is your barley is going to be killing to too high a temperature. Oh, yeah, that's, yeah, possibly, yeah. I think they do kill at about 130, so I'm going to have to look into that. Yeah, because I was thinking about doing something for, you know, but they sprout all this stuff, but then they don't. I mean, it would be possible maybe to do a mash that wasn't kiln, if you used it as soon as the thing, you know, reached the proper stage of malting. Yeah, if you malted your own and didn't
+
+[17:02] kiln it to dry it off. Right. I mean, wouldn't it be possible to then directly go to the mash stage? Yeah, yeah, it's not required. The drawing part of of, uh, malting is just this, you know, so it's storeable. Right. I've never done my own malting, but I hear that that's as much of an art or more so as anything else. Yeah, I malted some corn to do some heirloom variety corn, moonshine and sprouted the corn and mashed that. Off the record, you mean you did that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. hypothetical. Yeah, yeah. How was it? Uh, delicious. I mean, the amount we got out of it was ridiculously small, you know, out of like £15 of corn. We got a pint of finished product, but it was so
+
+[17:46] sweet and the corn flavor just came through so much better than, you know, modern moonshine is just corn
+
+[17:51] sugar for the most part. Right. And, you know, I've never had the actual fermented cheeches, like chichi dahura and all these things, but, um, you know, in their local environment, I've only had the, you know, the, um, the
+
+[18:02] chicha that, you know, the non-alcoholic teaches that they have up here. But, you know, assuming that those are boil-free, you also might look at maybe it's easier to get the breakdown of the mash in corn rather than in a barley. Um, I don't know. Or I also don't know if the saliva, amylace, enzymes are qualitatively different from the ones that we use from barley malt.
+
+[18:23] Um, these are all things that I find interesting. So why don't you, why don't you investigate it and I'll look into it a little bit and then maybe we'll talk about it again on a future show. Sound good? Sounds good, Dave. Hey, one more thing on a fooder on a food note. Um, I've been really into uh, cooking authentic Thai food ever since I ate at this
+
+[18:42] restaurant pockpock up in uh, Portland. And I've got all Dave Thompson's books. And I can't, a lot of them call for coriander root. And I was one of your few who have a source or have you ever seen any coriander roots available anywhere? I mean, if you can get, if you can buy some, a bunch of cilantro with the roots still attached. I've never seen that. Yeah, I mean, occasionally I'll get that, but, I mean, you have, then the good Thai groceries in, in your area, don't, don't have it, or do you not have like a hardcore Thai grocery? We don't have any, but even when I go down to Atlanta and then go to the big ones. I've just never seen it anywhere. So I grow my own, but you know. Pain in the butt? Yeah. Just for the roots. I have occasionally gotten a bunch of cilantro with the root attached, but I'll, uh, Nastasia, make a note to look into it, and
+
+[19:30] I'll, I'll look into that when I'm looking into the raw food. We try and hit 2 birds with one stone. All right, Dave, thanks for help. All right, thank you. All right. And now we are officially going to our 1st commercial break. Call on your questions to 718-497-2128. At 718-497-2128 cooking issues, Parliament.
+
+[19:50] I just can't find your baby. I have never tried.
+
+[20:25] Red light.
+
+[20:31] Now I ain't look down for me. I guess
+
+[20:38] I'm going out for sheep. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at 12 p.m. as she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the past by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where, and how, from as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables in Delhi counters of today. The show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures. Again, that's Thursday at 12 p.m. on Heritage Radio Network. But most of all, the funk. Lynn Placio, also the father, mother of chef Zach Palacio, and attended our fundraiser. right? So cheers to cheers to the Pelacio crew. All right. So go back to our salt risen bread. Salt rising, salt rising bread, actually doesn't contain a lot of salt, although sometimes it can. This one's undersalted because I didn't really want to taste it during the fermentation process, and I'll tell you why. Salt risen bread. Does not use yeast, right? Typical breads that we use that we make are leavened with yeast, different varieties of yeast. Sourdough breads are leavened with a basically a symbiotic culture that's both lactic acid bacteria and yeast,
+
+[22:08] right? And so it's like, and the specific culture depends on the specific yeast and the specific, you know, strain of yeast and the specific bacterial culture
+
+[22:16] that you have in it. And that's what gives the characteristic flavors of sourdough
+
+[22:21] bread. Right? They're sour, because the lactic gas bacteria are basically, I think, eating the byproducts of the yeast and producing the acid. Acidity provides a characteristic twang and also makes a dose slacker, which is why sourdough doesn't have the same taste or feeling as
+
+[22:35] regular because the gluten is somewhat broken down by the acidity. Okay. Now, salt rising bread, on the other hand, is leaven purely by bacterial action, and the bacteria involved is clostridium perfringence, which is actually a pathogen, a food pathogen, like one of the 2nd best known, or 2nd, probably most
+
+[22:58] prevalent, or one of the most prevalent food poisoning bacteria that there are. Now, I made Nastasia eat the bread before I said this because I knew that she would not try it afterwards. Now, there's a, what's interesting is, is it's been, it's been very, very thoroughly studied, and there's a study on it called the Microbiology
+
+[23:15] assault rising bread, uh, done by the uh, West Virginia University School of Medicine, uh, fairly recently. And basically what they did was they, they, they did a study of the different starters. Now, the way you do a starter. Clustardian prefringions is a is an anaerobic. It basically can't grow in oxygen. So what you do is you make a liquid mix with something like cornmeal or something for it to feed on, right? And you can add either salt or sometimes baking soda or a Camden tablet, which is basically a yeast inhibitor because you want to stop yeast from growing in there. You only want this bacteria to grow in it. And you let it sit in a warm place. I use my Excalibur dehydrator, which you can also use as a
+
+[23:56] breadproufer, to keep it at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit for hours, like usually
+
+[24:00] overnight, until it gets foamy and starts taking on a cheese like aroma that's characteristic of salt ridden bread, salt ridden bread.
+
+[24:08] Some of that characteristic aroma comes from one of the byproducts of clystrain and perfringians, which is butyric acid, which is the smell of rancid butter, or,
+
+[24:16] what you can smell now that you have it, nastachi, you'll say what I mean? Or it's a characteristic of Parmesan cheese or in very high concentrations vomit. Okay, so it has a very specific aroma that devotees of this bread really, really, really enjoy. They then add usually more water and flour to create a spongy starter, which you then let rise again for many hours, then make the
+
+[24:37] dough, and then let it rise up yet again, and you bake it. The texture, it's a lot whiter than regular bread because of the, for some reason, I don't really know why. They said it's because of the acids involved, but I doubt that. I don't know what it is. But it's a very white crumb. It has a different texture. finer bubbles, the gases produced are not carbon dioxide, as they are, normal bread. It's like combinations of hydrogen, and I believe also hydrogen sulfide, although I'm not sure. Uh, uh, gas is in the in the bread. So it's basically a fundamentally different bread making mechanism than you would use normally. Now, when you bake them, right? And they do have this, like, really, like, once you smell it once, like, you're never gonna, like,
+
+[25:16] you mistake the smell for, for, you know, and again, you know what it smells like when it happens. A lot of people have failures of getting their thing to rise, but it's very easy for me because I use the Excalorite. what? Well, come on, Nastasia. Always taking it into the gutter, always taking it into the gutter. Anyway, some people have a problem getting these sinks to rise in a in a non-sexual way gross. Uh, and, um, I think it's because they don't have adequate temperature control. So one of the reasons it's called salt risen bread. Some people speculate because you add salt to inhibit yeast formation. The other thing is that, apparently, the people who used to make it, they would take salt and heat it up and use that as a
+
+[25:53] heat, as a warm bed, a warm bed of salt to keep it in, to keep the temperature of the starter in the right place while it was heating because, and that, by the way, the crunching here in the back isn't me crumpling paper. It's nastasia eating the bread. So thank goodness she's overcome the, uh, the, like the fear of, uh, of, uh,
+
+[26:08] Perfringian's poisoning. Of course I can hear it. Anyway, Perfringian's poisoning and she's eating it. There's never there's never been a reported case of foodborne illness as a result of eating the bread and the the test they ran on the bread after it was cooked is that it is basically no active
+
+[26:23] perfringence in it. Now, uh, clustering for fringes is interesting because it's a spore forming bacteria. So you don't really kill it. You just kill all the vegetative cells, you don't kill the spores. But it's ubiquitous nostalgia. Obviously, I was able to have something. You don't like the word spore? What's wrong with the word spore? Spores don't move. They're spores. I just don't like it. She's making little like spider movements with their hands. It's a spore. You like mushrooms, right? You know what they make? Spores. Spore, spore, spore. Anyway. So, uh, so it's a very interesting topic. You know, I doubt that I'll actually blog about it. There's a very good website or, you know, or at least one that's well-known. Susan R. Brown, salt rising bread project, that you can look up, if you want to look up more on salt rising bread. Again, the only reason I don't think that I'll be writing about it is because I have so many things I need to write about
+
+[27:18] already and I haven't done it. But besides that, it's already been handled pretty well, I think, by these other guys. I don't really have anything to add to it. You know what I mean? Like we didn't do anything fancy or different. Like I didn't make like a salt rising chicken. You know what I mean? Like if I could come up with like a salt rising chicken, then, you know, we can do something very different. But here we are eating the salt rising bread, and I definitely will experiment with it more myself because it's
+
+[27:42] interesting and I like, I like funky things. And actually I like the taste. If I could get it to rise a little more, if I proved it longer, I'm going to add like a crust treatment to it too. What do you think, Nastasia? I like the taste. Yeah, I'm going to try to maybe also do it with alternative grains. It's always usually done with wheat flour. I'm going to try maybe doing it with maybe, well, nastasia's not a big rye person, but I'm going to maybe add a little bit of rye. Uh, play around. We will see. Anyway, okay, now, onto the, by the way, there still is time to call on your questions. I've wadded up the napkin, so I don't have the... 718-497-2128. Oh, very good. Say it again. 718-497-2128. Yes. Anyway, um, that's how we operate in the radio here, by the way. We have crumpled up napkins with it, with, because for some reason, for some reason, I can't ever commit the telephone number of the radio station to
+
+[28:26] memory no matter how many times I've said it. It's like literally goes, it goes off the paper, into my eyes, through my mouth and it's gone. Never has any residence time in my brain. All right. Hey guys, look forward to your show each week. Thank you. This is from Lee. I've got some pork shanks. going to cook low temp, looking for some guidance on time and temperature. I've done lamb shanks at 70 degrees Celsius for 36 hours, then bone
+
+[28:46] in pork shoulder at 61.5 degrees C for 48 hours. Both came out great, but the great variance leaves me lost for the pork shanks. Okay. The lamb shanks at 70 C for 36 hours. That's a long, let me see. 70 for 36 and 61 for 48. Those are what's funny is those are about equivalently. So in other words, you got to choose the temperature and the time. If I were going to do pork shanks, I would do it closer to the 2nd one, 61 for 48 or maybe 63 for about
+
+[29:17] 56, 57. Give that a shot. The 2 numbers you have are actually fairly equivalent, even though they seem disparate, because you have to cook for a lot shorter time as the temperature goes up. But anyway, I hope that, hope that helps, and give us a call and tell us how your pork shank turned up. Hey, we have a caller and caller, you were on the air. Hey now, Dave, how you doing? All right, what's up? Uh, I'm, I was wondering, uh, about uh, beer cooler sous vide. Um, I'm currently in the process of building my own emerging circulator and uh, it's just taken a little longer than I expected. Um, As far as uh, safety goes, Is there anything I should really worry about when cooking like whole fish inside of a beer
+
+[29:57] cooler? No. Nope. Nope. Perfect. But yeah, are you a are you a beer brewer? No. Okay. But so the one thing you should, here's what you need to do. You need to, the outside of your product is
+
+[30:12] going to be cooked a little more than the, uh, in the inside your product. It's the nature of the beast when you're doing this kind of work, okay? The main thing you're going to have to do is, I mean, are you going to get the standard homebrew special that got 5 gallon cooler? Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you that don't know, like the standard, like, thing to start your home brew mashing in is is, and I don't know why, but the company got is the one that everyone gets. Geo, I think TT, 5 gallon cooler. And what you do is, is you drill a small hole to fit your, whatever it is,
+
+[30:44] whatever thermometer you have, get a long stem thermometer, uh, and drill a hole in the top of
+
+[30:49] the, uh, of the, um, cooler, to put the thermometer in, pouring water that's close to the temperature you want to cook
+
+[30:54] to. I'll make up a number. 57 Celsius, right? And I'm making it up. Pour it in, throw in the thermometer, and then wait. And um, take readings every, um, every little bit, right? And figure out uh, figure out exactly uh, how fast the temperature drops. You should be able over the course of a couple of hours to keep it within about
+
+[31:16] 5 to 10 degrees, depending on how good the cooler is, right? So now you know your temperature drop. So what you do is, is you say, okay, now the 2nd thing you need to calculate is the weight of the water that you're
+
+[31:31] going to add, and the weight of the meat that you're going to add, right? Then you calculate the temperature of the meat that you're going to add and the, uh, and then you have to calculate what you want the temperature of the water to be, right? So let's say you have a 10 degree drop. Let's say you know you're going to cook it for an hour and a half and you know you're going to get a 10 degree drop over that hour and a
+
+[31:49] half , right? So let's say you're going to cook at 135, which is about 57, 135, you want what you want your finished temperature to be. So you start, you want to do your start calculation with the water starting out at 145 degrees, right? Does this make sense so far? Yep, perfect. Okay. So now you know you want a start temperature of 145 degrees. So what you do is, is you say, okay, I have, let's say, £30 of water at, and you want more water than meat, right? I have £30 of water at, um, you know, at, at, what, what temperature do I have to have that £30 of water to be, such that when I add £5 of meat at, you know, 40 degrees Celsius, that when you add those things together, the water and the thing average out to being a 100 and, um, 150, um, 150,
+
+[32:42] 100? Yeah, no, sorry, 145. Sorry, crap, 160. It's very hard to do this. But you see what I'm saying, right? Do you understand what I'm saying? So what you want to do is you want to, and here, in the easy way for everyone that I've confused with this, is, uh, it's really hard to do this without a piece of paper in my hands is look up calculations that brewers use to do strike temperature, right?
+
+[33:01] And so it's called strike temperature. And that's the water that they use when they add barley to it, and they want the mash to come out at exactly the right temperature. They do the exact same procedure. So you can use the exact same equation. So I would just go it on to any brewing site. Yeah, blueheads.com has the strike water temperature calculator. Perfect. So just use that and you should come out all right. Just make sure that you know what your temperature drop over the course of the intended cooking time is because it's typically going to be longer than it would be for a brewer on mashout on mashing
+
+[33:31] redder. Awesome. I have one other question for you, Dave. Just a follow-up from previous show. Have you have you played with an arrow press at all? Played with what? No, I haven't. I still haven't gotten one. We have an offer to have someone give us theirs. I, I, as soon as I get one, which I, it's just laziness and stupidity is the only reason I don't have it, but, um, no, why? Do you really like it? I've had mixed results. I find it tends to make a very sort of, uh, flat cup on the biggest problem being the, I think you're using paper filters with it, and they're not the greatest paper filters. I think you have a lot, like I've, uh, a place uh, has a clover, like an independent coffee shop, has a clover machine. I brought it in and compared and they make sort of a similar cup because it's a similar technique, but I think a metal filter would make a huge difference in allowing a little more of the oils and
+
+[34:24] uh, flavor to get through. So that, that's just my observation. I've only had it for about a month though. Right. I assume you're on the west coast if you went to a place with a clover. No, I'm in Halifax, actually. Oh, really? Oh, well, Clover Clover is a little bit different because Clover doesn't use any pressure and theoretically, there's some pressure in the arrow press,
+
+[34:43] which is going to probably change the coffee quality a little bit. Um, because the clover is basically just using the piston to extract out of the ground. It's not using it under any really elevated pressure. Um, But yeah, I need to, I need to play with it. Coffee geek, it obviously is a good place to go because people have done Aeropress work, a lot of Aeropress work, but anyway, but please get back to us with the results of your of your got cooler cooking and tell us what happens.
+
+[35:12] I will, babe. Thank you so much, man. All right, thank you. All right. All right, you too. And we have one last question. I hope to get to. I have to go fast because Nastasia's given me that evil look. Mike, okay. And of course, unfortunately, this question's a little long. They say, sorry. If I add liquid to a Ziploc bag and then cook a chicken breast sous vide, isn't the flavor going to be
+
+[35:31] leached out into this liquid? I read in your low temperature primer that the water hot dogs are cooked in, reaches equilibrium with the hot dogs and so the flavor's not altered. And that this water is reused all the time. And so it's okay for the hot dogs. It doesn't change the flavor. But this seems impractical at home, as I only cook chicken breasts every few weeks or something, is there a way to safely store the stock that you use for cooking chicken
+
+[35:51] breast this way and reuse it? Straining and freezing the stock, uh, stock seems an obvious approach, but is that the best way? Does the repeated freezing and thawing diminish the quality of the stock, or should you always add
+
+[36:01] pre-made stock to it? All right? Um, okay, here's my feeling on this. You can freeze stock, no problem, and rethought, it doesn't hurt the quality of it. The main problem with quality is with freezing
+
+[36:15] things as long as you actually contain them tight and you don't have oxygen touching them and there's not a lot of fat in them so that they can
+
+[36:21] go have rancidity problems. The main problem is actually just cells are being dehydrated and don't
+
+[36:26] hydrate properly and freeze thaw cycles or gels break and things like that. You don't care if the gelatin breaks because you're going to heat it again to the point where the gelatin's going to melt again anyway. And there's no cells to lose quality. So soup can be and stocks can be repeatedly frozen and thawed as long as you're not like damaging them with oxygen content or if there's a lot of fat or if you're having a problem like
+
+[36:48] that. So I wouldn't definitely would not worry about reusing, straining and reusing the stock again and again and again. You can also poach in a very, very small amount of liquid. Like, when I do chicken, I basically, I will, and this speaks to the later part of the question, which I don't have time to read, but when I do
+
+[37:05] chicken, now, typically what I'll do is I'll salt them and actually add a little sugar because I'm a cheater.
+
+[37:09] Instead of brining, and then I'll put it into my ziplocs, and I'll add a little bit of milk, but just enough to get a good seal on it.
+
+[37:17] So it's not really sucking that much flavor out of the chicken, but that stuff actually is good as a soup base because it's got chicken
+
+[37:26] flavor and, you know, it's salty already. You don't can't use it straight as is because it's usually too salty. But I do that, and then I use it for a different preparation, right? So you can do that, but that does dilute the chicken flavor somewhat, but not a lot, but you could definitely just reuse it. The other question you had is adding liquid to a steak cooked sous vide, it seems weird to me, especially if
+
+[37:46] pre-seered. Can I apply the principles you teach me on cooking? The chicken breast this way to cooking steak or other meats. I would not add water to a steak in the bag or a liquid. I've done tests with stock and it's okay. And obviously we do a super reduction of meat juices. Um, from when we're doing short ribs and stuff like that, but they're very, very, very reduced because they need to be not that much thicker than a
+
+[38:06] braising, uh, not that much thinner than a braising sauce even after the meat exudes all its juices as it's cooking. So I typically actually don't like to use liquids in the bag with a steak,
+
+[38:16] liquid water-based liquids. I use butter, right? So what I'll do when I'm cooking a steak in a Ziploc bag, and this is what I recommend to you is I use butter,
+
+[38:24] uh, and I, and if you like garlic, a good thing to do is to chop up garlic and throw it in the bag with the melted molten butter,
+
+[38:31] uh, seal it, cook it that way in the bag, and then that butter is then immediately useful for garlic bread, which guess what goes deliciously with
+
+[38:38] steak. I mean, really deliciously. And in fact, what I do is I pour out the butter, uh, and the juices that came out of the steak, strain out the garlic, because then you don't want that to burn, right? the garlic flavor's already in the butter. And then I whisk the, I whisk the, the meat, the juices and the butter together a
+
+[38:52] lot, and then pour it directly on the bread, and then fire that bread while I'm searing the steak, and both things come out at the same time, and everybody's happy. Even my hyper finicky kids. All right. I am being told that we are out of time. Is that correct, Jack? What? Yes. That was a yes. All right. Well, listen, this has been a very fun episode of cooking issues, and come back next week and give us all your questions. They say the thing is a headache, the biggest appeal, baby. Call me the big pill. Dr. Funkenstein. The disco theme with the monster sound, the cool goon with the bump transplant. Hip bone, connected to my thigh bone. My thigh bone connected to my leg bone, my leg bone connected to my ankle bone. I get so hung up on bones. Dr. Funkenstein here. Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with Do Something Real Film Festival, a collection of six provocative character driven films focused on food, environmental issues, and everyday people with a greater vision.
+
+[39:58] Come see one of the 6 features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th, through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m. Learn more about the films and special events at www.dosomethingreal.com. That's www.dosomethingrreel.com. sponsored by Whole Foods Market. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey, and an amazing value with the fair waste stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balanced blood sugar levels. It's a no-brainer. Get your fairway honey today. Rakutin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
+
+[41:04] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries, but what I'm here to tell you is, with Rakutin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[41:22] Viator, verbohotels.com, IHG, and more. Save on cruises, vacation packages, and experiences as well. And don't worry, cash back can be earned on top of your credit card points, and with many loyalty
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+[41:35] programs, because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead. Take a trip, find that perfect hotel. book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain. Wherever you want to go, go with Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's R A-K-U-T-E-N.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. Cooking issues will be live shortly. Dave's held up, and he'll be here as soon as he can. And it's late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fishes, vodka You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Sam Edwards. I'm 3rd generation Curemaster from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause of what they're doing. They're supporting family raised livestock, small family farms, certified humane, pasture raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon, sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at Surreyfarms.com or Virginia traditions.com.
+
+[1:10] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here with Nastasia, the Hammer
+
+[1:21] Lopez, coming to you live from the studio behind Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn on this rainy, rainy day. I just biked here in the rain, so I'm thoroughly soaked, negating any morning shower that I took. How are you doing, Nastasia? I'm doing okay, Dave. Yeah? So last week, a big a big week for us. We moved all of our stuff, junk, crap, from the French
+
+[1:42] Culinary Institute to the new company headquarters in Brooklyn. I can't believe I'm actually a Brooklyn guy now. I still live in Manhattan, though, for all you keeping track of this kind of stuff. But our new offices are in Williamsburg in the, uh, in the milk bar commissary in the back, they have a little extra storage space. So we've moved up from a trash room at the French culinary, which was our former lab, reverted back to a trash room several weeks ago. We've moved up in the world to back of the warehouse space, right? Yeah, anyway, we haven't set up yet. All of our crap is literally in the pile in the middle of the, in the middle of the space, waiting for a couple of weeks to see
+
+[2:18] whether, uh, see what I can do to build it out so we can actually have a sink and uh, start cooking again. But it should be exciting, right, nostalgia? We haven't thought of a name for the new company yet. We plan on making kitchen equipment, both for professionals and for home
+
+[2:31] people. And we're going to keep our hand in the cooking biz, right? Yeah. So any names would be appreciated for the company. We've had only terrible ideas, right? Like, it's like not even like many of them like not even able to be mentioned on the air, the ideas, right? horrible, horrible, horrible, offensive, offensive stuff. Okay, so Colin, all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're going to be here for the next 40 minutes or so. So please call in with all of your questions, cooking related or not. Mostly they're cooking related. Yeah. Unfortunately, right. By the way, Nastasia, you keeping a surprise? What do you have for the middle music, the brake music? Did you believe this? I didn't even think of anything. Well, you had a couple minutes. You can scroll around in your iPod for some good business. Mustache has been messing with it with the music. We had 2 weeks of hollow notes and what do we have? We had some slime coming down. That a good one. Okay. Good morning, gents. writes Ure K. Sterling. I have recently become very interested in high pressure molding, without binders, no egg, et cetera, of certain starches,
+
+[3:34] namely, different potatoes, tubers, I guess, yucca, Malanga, et cetera. I was wondering if any of you had any experience in this. And if not, where to look within the food manufacturing bids for such a request. Okay. Well, I'm gonna make some assumptions. I encourage you to write in with more details about exactly what you're trying to do, but I'm assuming if you're
+
+[3:53] going to high pressure mold starch without, you know, binders such as egg, that you're talking about tablet formation, you know, compressing into tablet form.
+
+[4:03] There are other things, obviously, that you can do under very high pressures, you can mold starches into plastics, but I'm just
+
+[4:09] going to, for the purposes of this, and discussion, assume that you mean tablets. So we've actually discussed this a little bit on one of the programs a long time ago, right? Tablet making. It's actually something that we haven't done. I haven't done, but I'm extremely interested in. I need to buy a tablet maker is it's on my list of things to do because we want to make our own tablets.
+
+[4:30] And in fact, I almost got a consulting gig a while ago where
+
+[4:33] he would have had to make a bunch of pills, but that what happened with that? We just fell through whatever. Anyway. So the deal is, right, that the different types, I encourage you to look at this paper from 1987 by
+
+[4:46] CE Bos, B-O-S, uh, entitled Native Starch and Tablet Formations, Properties on Compaction. And it's a good 1st, it's even though it's old, it's a good 1st starting for compression of starches, specifically starches, and native starches, because a lot of times when they're going to make tablets, they don't use native starches, they use starches either that have been
+
+[5:08] pre-gelatinized, or they use starches that have been modified in some way, acid modified, different modifications to alter the properties of the Finnish
+
+[5:17] tablet, to make them harder, to make them break up either easier or harder, things like
+
+[5:22] that. But I will say this. The actual type of starch that you use makes a huge difference in how the tablet is formed. So the way the tablet is formed is usually mix up the starch with, and it's, in the, in the business, this is called uh, an excipient. It's basically the nonactive ingredient. So you would be adding in whatever the active ingredient is, flavor or, you know, aspirin, you know, uh, whatever it is, a Celsius acidic acid,
+
+[5:45] wherever, wherever heck aspirin is, I can remember. Mix it in. And then you put it into a metal dye that's shaped, however you want it, and you compress it. Now, the compression is quite severe. Um, I don't know exactly, but it's on the order of like 18,000 PSI. in that order of magnitude, 18,000 psi. So it's easier for you to use much smaller dyes so that you don't need as much
+
+[6:07] physical tons of pressure pushing down to make a, make a tablet, right? Now, typically also they'll add other things to it, like lubricants, so that it doesn't heat up and so that it flows well in the dye when it's compressing, right? So you'd think that you're not adding any binders, but in fact, moisture, the amount of moisture that's in the starch is very important. So it turns out that you want about 10% moisture, total moisture in the starch, which is kind of normal in a relatively humid
+
+[6:35] environment out in the world. So even though you're not adding things like water, there are things like water present. Also, aside from the type of starch being very important, the, um, the way the starch is milled, right? Whether it's in fine granules or in larger pieces makes a big difference on how the on how the finished tablet's going to be. So it's a very complicated subject, one I'm very interested in, but
+
+[6:57] unfortunately don't know a lot about, but hopefully I've given you a good place to start, right, Nastasia? Yeah? Anyway, okay. So, let's go to our next question. We just got something in, interestingly. Listeners will know that we are interested in the irradiation
+
+[7:11] of corn to make different genetic mutations. Turns out, being able to call it nuclear corn. Turns out we got a, a write in from trying to find out who sent us the, who sent us the post. Here it is. J.R. Nelson sent us some interesting stuff this morning on mutation breeding. So that's the technical term, the, for, you know, new, you know, radiating stuff until she mutates and forms new
+
+[7:36] stuff. Anyway, so the technical term is mutation breeding, which sounds a lot, a lot better. But, um, JR writes in and says he came across a news bit today, where the University of California Riverside, which is the people who handle a lot of the citrus for for a country, the germ plasm for citrus, they basically, I think, I think they run the, uh, the United States is, uh, our federal citrus program, pretty sure, for germ plasm. Anyway, I have to look it up. But UC Davis, uh, and I guess at UC Riverside, just announced they created a new
+
+[8:05] Mandarin, uh, called uh, the Kino LS. Now, Kino is actually a very, it's an old venerated Mandarin. Delicious. Nastasia and I had it when we visited uh, uh, when we visited uh, uh, Gene Lester's citrus uh, ranch out in uh, in
+
+[8:19] Watlow. It's great. Problem is, Kino has a whole boatload of seeds. So what they did was, is they just nooped a whole bunch of, I guess, Budwood of a Kinno. They just nuked it, and then, you know, propagated it, and they got a
+
+[8:34] Kinno that had, that had a lower C. Now, they don't necessarily actually have to use a radiation. They just most of the time do. They can use other sports of chemical things, mutagens to ratage instincts like this to do it, but he sent that in and there's a picture of this new breed, you know, LS for low
+
+[8:51] seed or less seeds. So go take a look at it. Another fine example, nuclear oranges of better fruit through radiation,
+
+[8:59] right? You know, the thing is, I think a lot of people probably are freaked out by this kind of thing. And it's the same kind of un, you know, unthinking, uh, fear of things that, um, that brought us the term, uh, MMR, right? So you're familiar with, uh, well, you're not familiar with that. familiar with MRIs when you go to the hospital, you get an MRI. Yeah. MRI. Magnetic resonance imaging. You go in, they take a picture of your body. Yeah. Well, actually, that's a phenomenon called NMR nuclear magnetic resonance. And in fact, they changed the name from NMR, nuclear magnetic resonance to MRI, magnetic resonance imaging, because patients were literally afraid to get in a machine with the word nuclear attached to it. It's crazy, right? And the other thing is that a lot of people are against irradiated foodstuffs for preservation, right? Now, there are several reasons to be against irradiated foodstuffs, professor. So basically you can take food, fruits, whatever, expose them to very high levels
+
+[9:54] of gamma radiation, right? x-rays and such things and kill all the bacteria in them, right? Make them pretty much sterile as a preservation technique, and you don't have to heat it, right? Which is great. And you can do it when it's already packaged without heat. So it's, you know, can be fantastic. Now, there are some reasons to be against this, uh, to be against radiating food. One is it can destroy the texture of the food, right? Then that's valid. What do you think, Nasasha? That's a valid, yes. Yes. But there are other reasons that are not valid. For instance, people think that somehow they are going to get cancer from eating
+
+[10:27] irradiated food or somehow the food itself becomes radioactive. This is not a fair characterization of what happens. It's another situation where, uh, you know, adding the word radiation or nuclear makes something all of a sudden horrible in people's eyes. So hopefully they don't get that feeling with our nuclear corn in our nuclear, our nuclear mandarins, although apparently they're not going to advertise that fact. Anyway, we have a caller there, Jack? Or are they just ordering a pizza? I think they're just ordering a pizza. Yeah. We got to call her. All right, call her. You are on the air. Are there any studies that have proven that GM foods are bad? I can recognize this voice from through the radio. This is Patrick Martin's, the person who's working with us on the Museum of Food and Drink fundraiser, the founder of this radio network, and the founder of Slow Foods USA, and Heritage Foods. How are you doing today, Patrick? Good, thanks for having me. All right. So the question was, are there any references on GMOs saying that they're
+
+[11:25] actually bad? Well, I just read this quote from Bill Gates that says, I hate that all these sustainable food groups keep saying that our work is bad, you know, through the Gates Foundation, and
+
+[11:36] they keep falsely accusing, you know, GM foods of being bad. So, of course, I'm going like, well, there's got to be a study somewhere, but I haven't ever found one and I've asked people and no one can think of a study that proves that it's bad.
+
+[11:49] Yes, because there isn't one. Yeah, I mean, here's the problem. I think a lot of people, uh, you know, way back in the day in the uh, in the 80s, right? You know, if you're familiar with Jeremy Rifkin, right? I mean, he would come out against any of these kind of United things. And basically, in his mind, all things trace to some
+
+[12:06] some form of awful Armageddon at the hands of people that are doing genetic, um, genetic modifications. Now, there, there are arguments, I don't really, I don't really know them well enough
+
+[12:18] to, uh, to give them to you in any sort of form that doesn't seem derogatory to
+
+[12:24] them, if that, you know, gives you an idea where I am. There are arguments that there are things that can possibly go wrong. So one of the problems with GMO, one of the problems with GMO crops,
+
+[12:35] right, is, here's one. This is a real one. One of the problems with GMO crops is that you could, you're Monsanto, let's say, or someone else and you own a GMO crop, you now have a patent on that crop, right? You own it. So then, um, one of your seeds, some of your genetics can get float over, uh, you know, into somebody else's field, right? And contaminate their field with your genetics. And then, um, you know, you're selling your product because you're a normal farmer, and then Monsanto comes and sues you for stealing their
+
+[13:06] uh, genetics. And all you've done is save your seeds year after year and some of Monsanto's seeds have gotten mixed in, not because you've bought it or stole
+
+[13:14] it, but because their seeds have fallen onto your property, right? And so there are some legal ramifications of GMO that have put some farmers in some pretty tough
+
+[13:22] spots as a result of that kind of transfer, right? I mean, there's also the possibility that someone could release a some sort of gene into the environment that turns out to be harmful
+
+[13:35] 10, 15 years down the road. But the same could be said of, um, breeding a plant, you know, normally or any sort of normal thing. There's always the possibility with new with new breeding. So the real question is, aside from patent infringement. And, you know, and the legal issues that are involved in there, the question is, is how is genetically, how are genetically modified
+
+[13:55] products fundamentally different from, um, the breeding that's been going on for 100s of years, in fact, is espoused by the same people as being great, as that, that, that hate the GMO,
+
+[14:07] right? Those same people love the fact that we have 1000s of cultivars that have been bred over 100s of
+
+[14:12] years and are being preserved generation after generation. That's considered an absolute good by almost everyone in the field, everyone, including the people who are doing
+
+[14:18] GMOs because it gives them a base of gene plasma to work from it and to add, you know, to things with. But, you know, most of my criticism of it. It just comes from the fact that the GMO stuff is usually shooting at stuff that I don't care about. If the other problem is, is that it can add to monoculture problems. If they come up with something that, basically, if there's fire blight out there, let's say, and they come up with a product that is resistant to fire blight, and it becomes the only product out there, well, then when the next disease comes, they'll get wiped out, right? So there's there's all of these kind of arguments of how it can be bad, but I don't know
+
+[14:49] of any fundamental reason why they're why they're bad. Does that make sense? Yeah, well, thanks for your time. mean, do you agree or disagree? Yeah, no, I mean, well, I mean, I would, of course, instinctively, I always think that I want to find something that, you know, maybe
+
+[15:04] that at least to say the jury's not out yet as to whether or not a lifetime of GMO consumption is
+
+[15:11] bad. And, you know, but right now, you know, other than that, it's true, you know, it's to say, like, if we don't own our seeds, then, you know, is that bad, but it relates to the patent infringement. I mean, would you go so far as to say the jury's not out as to whether or not it's healthy or not? I'm always willing to be proved wrong on anything. I'll say that I haven't heard any argument that shows that it's detrimental to us from a health
+
+[15:39] standpoint. And, you know, and people say, well, if you don't know, then you can't do it, but there's plenty of things like that in the world where we weighed the risks and we do it, you know? Um, I think, um, you know, sure, I'm willing to be, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I think it's like everything else in this field. The GMO is a tool. It's a tool. And it's, um, and it's been used incorrectly by a lot of people to do a lot of awful stuff, you
+
+[16:03] know? And I think that what we need to do is not focus our
+
+[16:08] enmity on the tool. Don't don't look at the at the hammer as the as the bad thing. Look at the carpenter swinging the hammer as the bad thing. You know, so it's like, look at the way these tools are used and get angry about that and not about the tool itself. Exactly. Okay, interesting. I agree. Can't argue with the expert. And Patrick and Nastasia and I are going to be working very soon. If anyone out there is listening, we're going to be doing a search very soon for an administrative fundraiser for the museum of food and drink,
+
+[16:38] right, Patrick? And then in about, what do you think, Nastasia? 6 months time. 6 months time, we're going to be doing a fundraiser much like the one we did here in New York at Del Posto several weeks
+
+[16:49] ago. We're going to be doing one in the Bay Area. Am I right? Do we have the location hammer down, Patrick? No, but we have a few people who would like to do it. And, you know, we've expressed interest from shape beneath, although they're dealing with their 40th anniversary. When is their 40th? Yeah, 40th anniversary. So anyway, you know, it's going to be interesting and I think there's about 10 or 12 chefs that have already wanted to participate. So it's going to be pretty kick-ass. Yeah, so for those of you lunatics who missed out. You know what? I was thinking about this If we had just told people on the air that, you know, you're going to have like one of the greatest meals ever. It costs $250 and it didn't have anything to do with fundraising. It should have sold out, right? It's like, it's like we don't even basically even need to tell them that it's going for a good cause because the meal is, is that good? Am I right, Patrick? Yeah, it was really one of a kind. I mean, everyone was saying that no one had ever had a meal like that, especially with all that talent. Right. So when we do it on the west coast, you fools better not miss it. Am I right? You're right. All righty, all right. We're going to go to our 1st break, calling all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Oh, Al Green.
+
+[18:00] I'm so in love with you. Whatever you want to do. Is all right when you... Because you...
+
+[18:18] Make me feel so brand new.
+
+[18:28] Want to spend my life with you? Miss same thing. Baby Since we've been together. Oh, loving you forever. Is of what I... Let me, the one you come by.
+
+[19:01] I'll never be... Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at 12 p.m. as she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the
+
+[19:24] past by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where, and how. From as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables in Delhi counters of today, the show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures.
+
+[19:45] Again, that's Thursday at 12 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. So Richard, uh, uh, Kokovich called, uh, wrote in a comment on an ongoing discussion on the Aeropress coffee maker here, and it's got to be the most embarrassing thing for me in the world that it's like a $30 item that we've discussed multiple times on this dang show, and we've had multiple questions about it.
+
+[20:20] It's so easy to get. I can literally go on Amazon. One would show up at my doorstep tomorrow morning, and I can know from firsthand experience how the dang thing is working, and instead through laziness and inertia, we have not done it. So let's make a pact that today, even we've even been offered to, given one by some of our listeners, and we're just too lazy and stupid to take them up on it. So, when this show's over, one of the 1st things I do before I order a delicious pizza from Roberta's a salad, which is what we always get as our
+
+[20:46] post-show meal here. I am going to go on Amazon and Amazon Prime order us an
+
+[20:52] AeroPress coffee. Yes? Okay. Richard writes in and says, hi, I've been using my AirPress for all my coffee needs, and he switched from the French press, and the comments that we've had on the show about the AirPress's filter and flat taste are in his
+
+[21:04] experience accurate. A couple of months ago, he had some guests for breakfast and whipped out the 51 ounce French
+
+[21:09] press and the air press and the difference in flavor profile was noticeable. The French press tasted brighter than the Aero press, but the same beans. One of our listeners also mentioned that he thinks the filter is to blame because the paper is basically absorbing the coffee oils,
+
+[21:22] right, and absorbing some of the flavor. And Richard uses the filter several times to try and, I guess, saturate it with flavor. so it doesn't suck anymore out. But he thinks that's the reason that the taste is flat. And so he suggests that all of the listeners out there, and we'll get one of these 2s, maybe, is the coava disk, C-O-A-V-A, metal
+
+[21:42] adapter, filter disk for the Aeropress coffee. So go check that one out and check out the forms on CoffeeGeek.com, which is, you know, I think probably one of the best websites for coffee that there is.
+
+[21:53] I mean, I used to go to it all the time. Uh, so anyway, good, good to look at. That brings us to coffee. Last week, what day was it? Nastasia? Tuesday? No, the coffee thing we did? Saturday. Saturday? Saturday? Oh, yeah, Saturday. So Saturday night. I judged, along with, um, you know, a couple of people, the, the latte, a latte art championship. So for those of you, I don't know, who've been buried under a rock for the last, you know, 4 years or so, latte art is where you draw pretty pictures in
+
+[22:23] a in a latte, uh, and there's 2 different with milk, and there's 2 different ways of doing it. There's what's called free poor, where basically you just take a cup with espresso in it and you're pouring it, pour the milk into it. The milk has to be foamed in a very specific way to create something called a microfoam that doesn't have any big bubbles in it, right? And the coffee has to be perfect with a nice crema, and you do what's called a free pour, where you pour, and you can make
+
+[22:45] swans, and Rosettas, and tulips, and hearts, and all this. And, you know, we judged on a various criteria like how good the contrast was between the darks and lights, how symmetric they were, how much of the cup was being used, and these guys are pretty good. They can, they mean like, I can't do it. I'm going to be honest with you. can't do it. But, uh, what's really interesting is, um, is I was talking, and one of the judges is, was the 3 time, uh, Brazil all-time
+
+[23:12] champion barista, I, I, her name just went out of my head, but I'll look it up, and she was, uh, she, she was telling me we were talking about coffee, and I haven't really been involved
+
+[23:21] uh, with hardcore coffee espresso research in a long time. And one of the things that's happened in the past, uh, 4 years is, um, for those of you who don't drink espresso, start drinking espresso, but, you know, what used to be a shot of espresso was a little under an ounce
+
+[23:35] uh, per shot, right? And so if you were going to use, like, you would use like a 13 or 14 grams of coffee, ground coffee to
+
+[23:43] make, like, an ounce and a half to an ounce and 3 quarter double, right? That used to be kind of standard. Now people have updated it. It's like crept, and now it's gone up to like 16 grams of coffee and they're pulling like an ounce out of it or less.
+
+[23:56] And so that's, you know, or streto, but restretos have gotten preposterous over the past couple of years. Like, you just get these tiny, like, little wisps of coffee on the bottom of your
+
+[24:06] cup and they're delicious, right? They can be delicious. Um, but I'm just interested if any of our listeners, if they want to chime in, what they think about this creep towards
+
+[24:14] hyper restratos and uh, what that's doing. It's definitely making us plow through a whole boatload of coffee. And so I started playing with it home and I kind of, I kind of like these like, like super restratos. I'm trying to find a good middle downs. Anyway, that's just a, that's just amusing. Okay. Roy from Chicago, and I was supposed to talk about this at the top of the program. Roy from Chicago, uh, wrote in, what happened to the blog? Are you still doing posts? A couple of things have happened to the blog, Roy. One, we were hacked about a week ago and our site periodically keeps going down because of the
+
+[24:47] hacking. So I know, and I apologize to all of our listeners out there that sometimes it's difficult to get into the
+
+[24:55] site and we're looking at it. We're trying to hire a contract killer to go find out who it was that messed with our blog and execute them in a slow and painful fashion.
+
+[25:06] Yes? Yeah. Yes. He's still in post. Well, yeah, the 2nd thing is, is that, uh, is that there has been, let's just say, a dearth of post recently. Um, I'm working to remedy that I have a post up right now that is still in draft phase about
+
+[25:25] how about the museum and I have at least five, six, seven posts in the wings waiting to be posted. Part of the reason that we haven't been posting, and these are just lame excuses is because we're working, we were working before very hard on the museum, fundraiser, and then for the past 2 weeks, we've been working very, very hard on trying to figure out our new company and how we're actually going to make a living and not, you know, leave
+
+[25:49] our homeless, become homeless. Like that's kind of the main thing right now. Um, So, uh, yes, we will be, we will be ramping up, as I said before, uh, I will be contractually obliged to do for a
+
+[26:01] month, we're going to stick to that starting next week. I make it my pledge. I'm also going to try to start doing a lot of shorter posts. I've kind of been slammed into these like two, 3000, 4000 word posts and
+
+[26:13] it makes it very hard, especially because I like, uh, trying to get them as accurate as possible. And so it's difficult. These are just all stupid excuses. So, Roy, my apologies to you, and we will be up and running, hopefully hacker free, and also more regular in the near future,
+
+[26:31] Nastasia. Yes. Any comments? No, you said at all. Yeah. That sounds like me. All right. Long time listener and actually person who went to our fundraiser, Colin, wrote in. and he says, dear Flav, uh, David Flav. I like that. David Flav. I always have to read his things relatively word for word, so you get a feeling for his question, although sometimes I have to excise curses from them. Anyway, egg yolks are kick ass. I think I can say that. right? Egg yolks are kick ass, low temp egg yolks, especially kick ass. I have a few questions surrounding the gooey, gooey golden orbs of goodness. I want to end up with sheets of duck egg yolk that can be handled and drape over goosebreast. For chicken eggs. I saw Alex and Aki. That's Alex Naki of ideas in food, friends of ours. Recommend 63.8 degrees Celsius, and my chart says more like 66 C. I haven't tried either with chicken eggs, but I tested them with duck eggs and found that 63.8 didn't seem firm enough. I took them to 655 instead of 66, since it was preset into his old analog circulator. That yoke was still a bit gooey. I thought, but don't have any examples to compare it to other than the photos. The duck egg yolks seems a bit fattier to me, which might explain why it didn't seem as firm. Freezing after rolling out the yolk did help make it possible to cut and handle for about 10 seconds, but the whole sheet quickly got soft and goopy again. Strong enough to hold its shape when draped, but still a saucier consistency than I was expected. Here are my questions. That wasn't the question I was a prelude. I've seen eggs cooked whole, and then egg yolks removed for sheet rolling. Well, egg yolks cooked the same consistency, is separated with raw, putting a ziploc and circulated to the desired temperature. This is what I did since I had other plans for the whites. Did I throw off the pH perhaps? I don't know. I've never had a satisfactory answer for this column, but I'll tell you this. Egg yolks cook separately from egg whites, do not have the same texture as ones that are cooked in the whole egg and then the whites used for some other purpose, but removed after
+
+[28:15] cooking. Uh, I don't know why this is. Wiley Dufrene asked me this, I don't know, maybe 5 years ago, and I didn't know why then. 4 years ago, maybe. I don't know why now. I've asked Harold, we don't know why, but when I'm doing a lot of these things, I will cook the, we will cook the
+
+[28:32] yolks um, in the egg and then remove them and use the whites as like uh, as a cooked whites as an ingredient. There are dishes that I've done with egg yolks, where I've mixed egg yolks with transglutaminates and salt, and then put them into a zip, and then cook them to create a sauce, but I've never done it for sheets.
+
+[28:49] You can, if you want to cook them separately. You can firm them up a bit by adding translutaminates, Activa to it, it'll firm it up, especially if you cook it to the higher temperatures. But if you add salt, that's going to make them hold less. So you're not going to want to add salt before you cook them, you can add salt after you cook them. does make them look cool. makes them look like icing when you add the salt. Okay. 2nd question, if putting separated but intact raw eggs in the bag is okay, will the yolks also achieve the
+
+[29:14] desire consistency, if they're broken, mixed together first? I've tried holding them whole versus splitting them. I haven't seen that much of a difference, but I think it might make a difference. So if you're gonna try and do it in the bag, I would hold them whole. Um, three, what procedure do you use when you make yolk sheets? What I do is I cook them to about 66 degrees, or thereabouts, for an hour, chill them, break out the yolks, smash the yolks together, roll them between 2 sheets of plastic wrap, and
+
+[29:40] then cook them out. Yeah, I agree that Alex Anaki, 63.8 is too low. That's going to be just barely set and not really good for sheeting unless you kind of freeze it out
+
+[29:49] first. And fourthly, last question on the eggs. What are the difference between duck egg yolk and chicken egg yolk and how may this be affecting the texture I'm seeing? I don't know. They are slightly different. We've been keep cooking on the same temperature at the school, but I haven't done enough textures tests with duck egg yolk to know for certain, same with quail. I do know that the proteins are slightly different, which is why it's easier to make transparent eggs with lye with duck eggs than with chicken. But, uh, come back to us when you get some more experience and see whether you agree. Do we have a collar? Caller, you are on the air. Hi, this is hi, this is Brian. How are you guys? Doing all right. How you doing? Great. Got a question. I don't have a smoker. Thought about buying those Bradley smokers. Um, but I'm interested in doing some hacks, uh, at at home, um, uh, in either my Webber, uh, or in my oven or in indoors.
+
+[30:43] So I'm wondering if I want to do a DIY smoker setup, both
+
+[30:47] for cold smoking and hot smoking, um, any suggestions? So you want to do it without um, without buying the Bradley. Basically, you want like as as inexpensive as is humanly possible, right? Um, but safe relatively. I like relatively safe. Assuming you have an outdoor space, it's not going to catch on fire. I have a little balcony. Right. Oh okay. So you're an apartment, you know. Not a lot of space. M space. I know how that is. I know how that is. All right, so hot smoking. Right. Hot smoking is relatively easy. So with that, you could probably modify the Weber just by putting like a hot plate that you get at, you know, the CVS or the Rite Aid, whatever, cheapest, like find one on the street, whatever, modify a hot plate to use as your heat generator, and you could generate smoke that way, and
+
+[31:38] it probably work in a Weber. You know, they used to sell, I'm sure they still do, basically just cylinders, which were, you know, modified drums, like 30 gallon drums, and they, and they had a, you know, just a crappy electric heating element in the bottom of them that you could adjust the temperature of so that your heat wouldn't go either too low or too high, soak the
+
+[31:57] chips, and put them in, in aluminum foil or something like that, put it on the, on the heating element and go, right? And so then, you know, the next level on that is if do you want a temperature control that on the hot smoke side, right? Then you could do stuff like, um, add a PID controller, uh, that instead of adjusting the smoking temperature would address probably the
+
+[32:17] draft, the vents, right? And like turn on a fan and extract smoke out to adjust the temperature, something like that,
+
+[32:23] right? Uh, so like, you know, that is, you know, relatively cheap and easy. Now the question is, if you want to do legitimate cold smoke, What you have to do is separate the smoke generator from
+
+[32:33] the uh, from the actual cabinet where you're, where you're smoking. So typically what people will do is they'll build a box, fireproof, preferably, that, but you could use almost anything, and put the, as long as it's not going to melt, and then put the, uh, the heat generator in the smoke generator rather in that, and then just take pipe, like cheap, uh, uh, cheap, you know, galvanized duct
+
+[32:57] pipe that you could get at, uh, you know, Home Depot or any one of these places, and then connect the duck pipe from the smoke generator to whatever you're
+
+[33:04] going to smoke in. And again, that what you're going to smoke in can be anything that is kind of food grade that's going to take the heat. So people use refrigerators, people use, uh, whatever, you know, uh,
+
+[33:15] as long as it contains the, as long as it contains the, the smoke. Then you, um, then basically, you know, if the smoke's not cold enough, you either extend the length of the pipe or I know some people have like put water over the pipe or packed ice around to try and get the temperature down.
+
+[33:30] So now you can get a really nice cold, cold smoke. Um, but uh, then if you want to actually then increase the heat in the smoking cabinet, you have to put in a separate element to provide heat to the cabinet. Does that make sense? What do you mean by separate element? Well, once the smoke is cold, once the smoke is cold smoke, then if you actually want to cook at the same time with the smoke, you actually have to heat the
+
+[33:54] cabinet. Or, you know, or you could just reduce the length of the pipe to the thing, I guess, to jack the heat
+
+[34:00] up, or vent it less. It'll eventually will accumulate, uh, will accumulate, uh, this stuff. There's a whole bunch, and I haven't built one, uh, and since literally since I was in high school, it was the last time I built, which is, you know, a long, long time ago, I built one for my mom, but, um, uh, it's been a long time since I've built one just because I've been in the city this whole time,
+
+[34:19] and I don't even have a balcony, which is pathetic. Uh, you know, on the cheap side for a smoker. If you want to get buy one that's a hot smoker that works fairly well, and I know Wiley used it, but it doesn't have anywhere near good temperature
+
+[34:31] control is, uh, the, uh, I think Little Chief is the name of the smoker, and it's basically a box with a heating helmet in the bottom. And that thing works great. And I know people have customized that one. I think there's little chief, there might be a big chief. They've customized that one to get lower temperatures. I know Nils did some work with that. And like I say, Wiley's been using that for a long time. So that's a good entry level. Just do just could buy that and then have the pipe set up as well. And then hack it. Yeah, buy that one and you can start with hot smoking and it works great. And it's small and is like relatively friendly, like sits out and plugs
+
+[35:03] in, it's not huge. It's like, you know, can fit on a tabletop. And, uh, and, and that, like I said, that's the one that Wiley used for a long
+
+[35:10] time and, and we got one up to school and Nils used it. And then, um, and then you can start hacking with that to try and get the temperature down by adding, uh, adding different controls or venting it
+
+[35:20] more or trying to remove the smoke generator from the cabinet. Mm-hmm. Got it. Um, I have another barbecue related question if I can ask you now. All right. I've been reading about this Japanese charcoal, the bin show ton charcoal. what's the what's the deal with that? It seems like it's kind of smokeless. It lasts a long time. Um, you know anything about it? It looks really cool. It's an extremely expensive stuff, you know, and so what they'll do is like they'll cook with it inside. I mean, like Japanese, they're cooking inside with charcoal and have for a long time. I guess they're not as culturally worried about the carbon monoxide poisoning as we are. Like if you look at any bag of charcoal produced in the US, it has warnings all over
+
+[36:02] it, never to ever even think of lighting it indoors, right? Right. And so, uh, those guys, uh, the Benchoton guys. I mean, they cook inside all the time with it. And in fact, they did a demo to school a couple of years back. They had a really awesome, uh, they they built a sand pit that the Benchiton was cooked in. They built the fire with the benchiton charcoal in the sand pit and then were cooking over that. Um, And I got to play with the charcoal with the
+
+[36:27] Benchiton and look at it. And indeed, it does have very low smoke output, right? But here's the deal, right? Uh, it's, I can't, I could not discern the difference between binchoton and high quality uh, American produced hardwood charcoal. right? So if you go and you look at the bag of charcoal that you bought, and it looks like chunks of wood that are black, right? You were going to be able to get the same results. This is my opinion talking here. This is not that I've done a side by side, but having lit a whole bunch of, uh, of like good old-fashioned, like hardwood charcoal, like it does, to my mind, the same kind of job that the
+
+[37:07] Binchoton does. It's just not nearly as expensive, right? The, the, the one that's not going to work the same way as the benchiton or the compressed briquettes, right? Those are gonna... Right, it doesn't look like wood. And those things have usually been treated often have been treated with something, right? So they operate fundamentally differently than these ones that look like chunks of wood. Now, the other reason why the Japanese system is theoretically smokeless, right, is because the way that they cook in it is they'll stick their food on the end of a skewer, embed the skewer in the sand, uh, not over the
+
+[37:41] binchiton, but next to the binchiton, right? So the heat, the heat from the, from the benchiton charcoal is radiating out and cooking it, such that the fat from the meat is not dripping onto the
+
+[37:52] benchiton. As soon as fat and liquids start dripping onto the charcoal. I don't care what you're using, you're gonna get smoke, right? Right? Yeah, there's, but, you know, the good news for flare-ups. And I've said this forever, and Nathan Mirvold and Chris Young have basically now, you know, they say it in their book, so I feel like vindicated, is that that's where the flavor comes
+
+[38:14] from is the flare-ups. You know what I mean? Like that, like, or at least part of the flavor that I really like comes from this combustion happens during the flare-ups. Uh, and so if you don't have things dripping on the charcoal, you might get some sort of smokiness. And if you did, that would kind of negate any sort of theory they have that is absolutely smokeless because you've got some sort of flavor off the fact that you've combusted something, right? But, uh, but in fact, uh, I like a little bit of that that smoke and and combustion and all that stuff because I think that's where a lot of the good uh, flavor comes from. But if you want to experiment with Benchiton, I think you could build a,
+
+[38:46] like a sand thing and use, uh, like high quality American hardwood charcoal. It's not maybe as long as the binchoton because they're very careful about the shape and the way it looks because a lot of that is aesthetic in nature, right? I mean, a lot of the Binchiton has to do with aesthetics, right? Another interesting thing, it might get me in trouble about, the Japanese, like, the
+
+[39:07] Benchriton thing is, is that I don't know that they've, uh, that the people who are advocates of Benchriton have done a lot of experiments with the American product. I think they just see the charcoal briquettes say, you know, Americans don't know Jack Doodley about charcoal, and therefore, like, this one has to be the best, not saying, hey, here's an American product that might perform the same way.
+
+[39:25] That's just not usually how those demonstrations and discussions happen. Do you know what I mean? Got it. Got it. So it's a venture on charcoal. I might as well be putting something in the broiler because it's essentially smokeless. It doesn't seem to really, it's not quite the same in terms of barbecue is what you're saying. doesn't get those same flavors. I've never done it side by side, so I'm going to, I'm hesitant to, to, to say, yes, that's the case, but, you know, for, for me, I think that if you're not generating a lot of smoke, you're probably not getting a lot of extra flavor, except for the fact that the way that heat is being delivered is different, right?
+
+[39:59] So assuming that you can get a lot higher heat radiation out of coal than you can out of your broiler, especially your average broiler,
+
+[40:07] then yes, maybe it's going to give a better product, but insofar as it's smokeless, I don't think you're getting any extra added flavor, you
+
+[40:15] know? Great. Thanks, it's really helpful. I appreciate it, Dave. Thank you. All right. Okay, bye-bye. Bye-bye. On the way out, we got one last question from Colin. Does he do we have any suggestions for how to prepare wild Canada goose? He wants to jug it in the form of jugged hairs. Jugging is a technique where you cook meat, usually in a container, with that, you know, it basically braises in a enclosed
+
+[40:39] container, and jugged hair, and civets, and things like that? Not civic cats, but civic, meaning blood sauce with hair is the classic thing. Do we have any suggestions? He tested his sliver at 60 degrees Celsius for 45 minutes and he didn't like it. And he tried 7 hours and 58 degrees, and it was also too tough. Uh, couple of things on this. I've never cooked Canadian geese, so it's hard for me to say exactly how to cook it. I will say this. Anything that kills those vicious bastards that Canadian geese are is a good thing. Canadian geese are the most vicious, evil creatures. If you've ever had them like land in your area and attack you as you're walking towards a
+
+[41:14] ponder lake, you know how evil they are. Plus they poop all over everything. So I encourage the legal bagging and cooking of Canada geese. So we have to come up with a recipe, Canadian geese, though. You have come up with a recipe that you like them? I think they're so pretty. You're from the west coast, right? I know, that's why. That's why. I was attacked by one as a kid. Yeah, they're evil, vicious, vicious creatures, as opposed to ducks, which are nice, and yet we eat them all the time. Geese are evil, evil. So that was Jack, by the way, our intrepid, our intrepid engineer. Okay, so here's my here's the problem you're going to have. Canadian geese, the breast meat doesn't have a lot of connective tissue. So cooking it for a long time isn't going to tenderize it very much in my, in my, this is my opinion. Now I haven't tried it. I would try doing around 63 deg- It depends on how dark the meat is. I would try doing anywhere between 57 and 63, uh, for uh, 45 minutes sounds about right. 58 is going to be too low. I'm assuming it's going to cook more like a chicken. You're gonna want to jack it up. I don't think seven, he tried it for 7 hours, 58. I don't think that's going to work. I'm going to have to Colin get back to you on this one. I'm going to do some more research on old tough game meets. I think it's an incredibly important thing for all of us to pay attention to because I'm trying to encourage every hunter in the world to buy a circulator to cook their game meats, right?
+
+[42:34] If you are a hunter and you are listening to this and you do not own a circulator. You are doing your meat a disservice. So we got to figure out how to cook this, Colin. And so give us a call, give us a write, and let's figure this out together. This has been cooking issues. We coming back next week on Tuesday.
+
+[42:56] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did.
+
+[43:07] Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with do something real film festival, a collection of six provocative character driven films focused on food, environmental
+
+[43:17] issues, and everyday people with a greater vision. Come see one of the 6 features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th, through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m. Learn more about the films and special events at www.dosomethingreal.com. www.do-somethingr-e-L dot com. sponsored by Whole Foods Market.
+
+[43:48] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. The SnackyTunes compilation has arrived and is available for free on our website,
+
+[43:57] heritageradionetwork.com. This compilation features live performances from some of the hottest acts around today, including
+
+[44:04] midnight magic, surfer blood, overhopper, and more. Again, you can download this compilation for free on our website, Heritage Radio Network.com, and make sure to listen to Snacky Tunes every Monday at 2 PM on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[44:25] The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something and it is delicious. The fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey, at an amazing value with the fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious. Honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements and balance, blood, sugar levels. It's a no brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I am the host of Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, here with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, New York, coming to you every Tuesday from approximately 12 to 1245.
+
+[0:23] Call in all of your cooking related questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Actually, nostash prefers the non-cookie related questions, right? I do I prefer issues. Yeah, she prefers just straight up issues. And if you knew her better, you'd see why. Today's today. Come on now, right? Today's episode is brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is a nation's largest single source supplier, free range, all natural, grass-fed, and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscapes. For more information, go to www.herstranch.com. That's www.herstranch.com. Hey, Nastasia. Anything interesting happen this week? Yeah. What? I can't. Oh, you can't develop it? Really? Yeah. Wow. I'm intrigued. Do I know this stuff? Oh, really? I feel like I feel like I'm being left a pizza, over pizza. I'm gonna hear I'm gonna Well, for all of you out there in internet land. I'm gonna get the real skinny when it comes to your peaches. By the way, the payment we get for doing this fabulous show every week is a pizza and
+
+[1:36] a salad, correct? Yes. Yes. Anyway, not that that's not good enough payment, Jack. Just talking already here. Dr. Pepper. Oh, uh, and it diet, diet, diet, diet. Yes, okay. Okay, here come the questions. From Andrew Cummings. Hi, Dave and Nastasia. I really like all the stuff you do, apart from providing me with tons of ideas, I think you must be from England. Australia, I guess you said, right? Because he spells tons in the British fashion. Reading your articles and listening to your radio show, keep my passion for food going. Well, thank you. He's a food technologist, an honorable professional, when done right. When done right, an very honorable profession, when done right. He's wondering if I can tell him anything about cinnamon and its gelling effects. A couple of years ago, he was working for a chocolatier at a small boutique store and saw that the liquid components in
+
+[2:23] Panforte, which is a delicious kind of, it's weird kind of candy dense sweet from Siena. I actually like it. Do you like it? I don't know. You know, it's that really dense dark with all the nuts and the candy fruit in it. It's got the wafer paper on the bottom and it stays good forever and you slice it into disks into wedges. Is it like a caramelly? No, it's not, imagine like a fruitcake without the cake? Anyway. but it's real dense. Anyway, sorry, sorry for interrupting the middle of your question there. Andrew. So he was making some panforte, and the stuff had turned into a thick slime, and he asked his boss about it, and he said it happens whenever he adds
+
+[3:00] a cinnamon, and he looked around on the internet for some explanation, is why cinnamon would cause this kind of
+
+[3:04] gelling effect, but could find no academic papers on it. I'm guessing it's probably some polysaccharide, similar to what's in gum Arabic, but he'd like to know if it can be extracted and used as a future shelling agent. Well, I was not able to find any information on that, although there is a polysaccharide in cinnamon, that some
+
+[3:21] nut job has named cinnamon AX polysaccharide, that has some sort of BS health benefit or something like that, but it doesn't say anything about its geling properties. I doubt it's exactly similar to gum Arabic because gum Arabic isn't just, it's not a bark phenomenon. It's a sap phenomenon, so come Arabic, it's a mix of protein,
+
+[3:40] small amount of protein, and gum sap. Although there could be some residual stuff in the bark. And it clearly, there are many barks that are used for thickening. For instance, uh, you know, filet powder, uh, which is at the leaves of the bark. I always forget. Anyways. So, yeah, yes, obviously there's probably some sort of, um, some sort of gelling agent. Another thing is Panforte is very, very thick and usually uses a boiled sugar component. So it's probably close to gumming up on you anyway. So the addition of anything that's going to absorb water and have any sort of polysaccharide or water binding effect might cause it to gum up. But I'm interested in this. I'm going to ask McGee if I have Niggy. Niggy, I'm going to ask McGee next time I speak to him if I can remember. An interesting thing is, is that, um, Casia, not regular cinnamon,
+
+[4:23] Vicasia, uh, has in it uh, cumarin, which is an anti-coagulant. So the exact opposite of making things thick, making things thin. Anyway, I was not able to find anything, but I'm going to keep my ears out for that. And anyone else, if you hear anything about it or have had experience, please write in and tell us because we're interested in that sort of thing. Okay. I'm going to go on to hello from Adam. Adam has a bacon related question that he hopes we can help him with. You think so? Baking. Baking. You think we can help? Yeah. I don't know. Okay. This is actually a pretty complicated one, so I'm just going to read it straight out. He said, you know, there are plenty of situations where you need to hydrate a dough to work to work it, but where the gluten formation is the
+
+[5:03] enemy. For instance, pie dough, biscuits, scones, cakes, cookies, et cetera. To keep the gluten under control, you usually use low protein flour, avoid overworking,
+
+[5:11] and then add a lot of a fat. And the fat basically is coating the flower particles and preventing the water from forming gluten. Okay. So, and recently he's read about experimenting replacing water. In a pastry crispy, in a pastry crust recipe with vodka, since apparently alcohol doesn't have the gluten activating properties that water does,
+
+[5:29] producing hypothetically producing a crust with even less chewiness than usual. This is true. This is not only for pie crust, this is also for batters. So, I mean, the famous examples, uh, in pie crust land would probably be America's Test Kitchen, uh, Chris Kimball's, um, you know, his show,
+
+[5:45] that he's Cook's Illustrated guy, where they have their, uh, pastry, uh, their their pie crust recipe that includes a good portion of vodka in it, uh, does 2 things.
+
+[5:54] One allows you to add more liquid so that you can make it a little more. It's not as flaky, it doesn't come apart in your hands. It volatilizes off and doesn't form a lot of gluten, so it can be rolled without it getting tough, right? So that's one application. The 2nd famous one is probably Heston Blumenthal's fish and chips batter, where he will add vodka to the
+
+[6:12] batter, to prevent sort of gluten formation to make it stay crisp, without it getting tough at all, without the batter getting tough at all, and without having to add a lot of
+
+[6:20] extra, you know, starch binders other than flour to get it to be where he wants. So these are 2 very well-known applications of alcohol being used as the, well, hydrate's the wrong
+
+[6:32] word because it's not water, but you know what I'm saying, to give the dose some sort of plasticity.
+
+[6:36] So, anyway, so, uh, he goes on and he says, it sounds like a holy grail of pastry crust is a dough with no gluten formation whatsoever. I wonder what would happen if you inhibit gluten formation entirely, with the starch still being in granular form. I think you still want the granules be hydrated to some extent, even if they're just swelling and sitting together in an extremely delicate array with little intergranual entanglement so that you're not eating something that's going to turn it to dust when you bite down on it.
+
+[6:59] Well, okay. 0 gluten formation, 100% 0 gluten formation is actually quite problematic because it means the dough is extremely hard to work.
+
+[7:08] This is why it's very difficult to work many gluten-free recipes, right? So if you're gonna make, I mean, people do make pie crust and whatnot exclusively out of things like potato flour and rice flour for gluten-free recipes,
+
+[7:21] but these does are typically extremely hard to handle. The same way that non-flowered dumpling wrappers are hard to handle. And the way that those are usually solved is you will pre-cook, pre-boil, a portion of your starch, so that the starch will entangle itself a little bit to give you a little bit of
+
+[7:36] structure, so that you can then form it into a workable dough.
+
+[7:40] So a little bit of gluten formation can be helpful for, or is always helpful, usually in formation of dough, not so much in batters. So in batters, it's not as big a deal. But anyway, so he goes on and his last thing he's positing. A while ago, I was talking about the free saw stability of geling agents, and this came to mind. What if we had a gel that had poor heat stability so that the gel is holding
+
+[8:01] on to most of the water when you're forming the dough, but when it's heated, the gel loses, it's holding on the water and allows it to seep into the flour, and that would control the shape of baked goods and make it so that it had a fairly high water content without it for having
+
+[8:14] live gluten formation. Well, I'm not sure if that would actually be useful or not, but if you
+
+[8:19] wanted to experiment with it, because in general, like very, very low water formation things still are delicious, the classic example is shortbread, which is basically, you know, you take of butter and
+
+[8:30] sugar and a tiny bit of flour and you barely get it to hold together and you bake it. And is there anything more delicious than short bread? No. No? You like it? Do you like you don't like it? I don't like it. You don't like shortbread? What? It's like hard tech. Are you nuts? Who made your shortbread? Who made your shortbread? Jeez, my god. Shortbread, like, heart attack? My god. Anyway, I'm sorry for that outburst. All right, listen, we have a caller, but I'm going to tell you, 1st try an agar fluid gel. If you want to get something that's going to hold onto water, but at the close to the boiling point, we'll melt out. Capa Carragini won't form a fluid jealousy. can't use it even though it's going to melt at a lower temperature. Hardtack indeed. Color, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, I love the show, by the way. Lots and lots of useful hints. I have a couple questions about hydrocolides. Specifically, I've been using Agar and Guargum together. Sorry, Xantham and Guargon to stabilize emulsions. And I was wondering, do you have any tips for making them heat resistant, particularly like a
+
+[9:33] hollandaise or a beurre blanc. Okay. What guar are you using? Uh, it's just, just a squire gone on it. I got it from will powder. Okay, I don't know which, um, Will is a good guy. Taste it. If it has a bad taste to it. It means he's sourcing, and there's no offense to him because I don't know what he's sourcing, but he's sourcing an inexpensive guar. And if that has a beanie taste to it, is before I answer your question. If it has a beanie kind of off taste to it, you're going to want to call a company called TIC
+
+[10:00] Gums, uh, and get their, theirs, which is called uh, Guar flavor. flavor-free guar, NT 2000 or some crap like that, but it's flavor-free guar. And that stuff's awesome, right? That stuff's really good. Now Will might be sourcing that. So if you taste his guar. Uh, and it tastes okay, then I'd stick stick with it. But if it does have kind of an off taste to you, then I'd look into getting another guar. Now, what specific problems are you having with with stability using that system? Well, what it is, is a reasonable temperature. It's very, very stable, more stable than any Hollandaise or beurre blanc I'm making, but I want something that I can pour onto the plate, like at the same heat that I would pour like a
+
+[10:43] demiglass or any other typical hot sauce. But when I get up to those temperatures, you know, like the 60 neighborhood,
+
+[10:49] they, uh, the guards, uh, won't help it and it just splits eventually. So even at 60, even at 60 degrees. Well, no, no, I wasn't, I wasn't being that precise with my, with my measurements, because I'm not keeping it in circulators too. I was keeping it trying to keep it just in the traditional steam table where you don't have that sort of control. So I was wondering, like, I have methyl cellulose. Is there any other products that or culminations or percentages that
+
+[11:12] that will increase the uh the heat resistance? Well, methocell is, the problem with methocell is methocell gels when it gets hot, so it's going to get firm and it's not going to stay pourable. I'm surprised. So when you heat Guar, what happens is Guar loses some of its thickening power. It doesn't get damaged in any way. When it cools down, it will come back to its thickness, but Guar loses a bit of its thickness as it gets heated up. Unlike Xanthan, which loses its, which only loses a very little bit of its, um, abilities when it when it's heated up. Now, I wouldn't want to thicken the guar at all because, I mean, add more guar
+
+[11:50] because, A, you're going to start tasting guar and B, it's going to get too thick when it gets cold. Um, I'm wondering whether the heat, the damage is actually happening to the egg proteins in it, right? in which case. Well that's it is like to keep it as more like a traditional Holland. Well, 1st I was doing hollandaise, uh, that style, then I tried doing verb blanc, and I had good results of both. But I'm trying to keep that original Hollandaise beurre blanc
+
+[12:14] texture, and I thought if I, if I brought my percentages too high, it, it became a bit too, well, I mean, you know what I mean? So I was wondering if, if, because already I found that doing the Xantan and Maguar together made good results. I was wondering if there was a 3rd guy, um, to bring in there um, that might bring some labs. that heat resistance without bringing my percentages too high. Triple gum systems can be difficult because you can have multiple interactions with things. So what you, basically, you don't have an emulsifier in there. The only emulsifier you have are the, well, the egg in the one and the, and the milk solids in the other. So, um, you know, both the Guar and the Xanthan, the Guar is acting basically as a thickening agent to prevent the particles from glaming
+
+[13:00] together, and the Xanthan is acting as a weak jelling agent when it's not being stirred, right? And so that's basically your stabilization system. You might want to move to an added emulsifier. So a good one in this choice might be gum Arabic, right? So instead of using Xanthan, we use a mix of gum Arabic and Xanthan called Ticoloid, they're also from TIC gums,
+
+[13:21] Ticoloid, 310 S, and Ticoloid, 210 S. And it's a basically it's a mix of Xanthan and gum Arabic. Gum Arabic is going to act as your as your emulsifier, right? And then, um, the, and the, and the Xanthan's going to act as your stabilizer and as a weak gelling agent when you're not stirring and sitting on the scene table. I've made butter syrups, just butter syrups with that, that will sit on your bench or get heated indefinitely without breaking. So then if you're having further problems with breaking, you can add something like guar, or even a starch to something like egg yolk to prevent the egg yolk proteins from being able to
+
+[13:54] coagulate and, you know, and turn crappy on you. So, I would move to. I would try a system of gum Arabic and Xanthan, and an easy premix one is a tickleoy 210 or 310 S, which they'll sell to you or sample out to you, and or just get commercially available gum Arabic and add it into
+
+[14:12] that. Because I think what you need is to add an actual emulsifier. And the good news about the gum arabic, because it's fairly stable over a wide range of heats, and it's also fairly stable over a wide range of
+
+[14:23] dilution. So if you were to then suddenly use a, like,
+
+[14:27] like, you could even fortify a liquid into that beurre blanc to, to thin it out a little bit, and it would still hold its sauce consistency. So it acts, uh, it's a lot more friendly than a traditional beurre blanc, and it could make, you could have like a base there that would be useful for a lot of different recipes. Right, right, great. So, uh, garma Arabic definitely sounds like the uh, the next thing I need to try. Uh, can I hear you with one more quick one before I go? The, uh, I heard you talking about uh, like, candies just a 2nd ago and I was actually planning on doing a wedding where I was going to have candies at the end. What product is the best one used to get that, that sour patch kids kind of stretchy, uh, jellies? Well, so like the classic American ones. You want an American sour patch kid? Those are gelatin. That's just straight up gelatin. Uh, and then, I was using that. No, it was getting like more kind of solid cuddible before it was getting stretchy. What am I doing wrong? Um, I mean, I haven't I haven't, uh, it's been a long time since I've worked with anything like that. I've never gotten really good results. They, but the, from everything I've read, like the, the, the gummy bears are starch molded. And so it's all about getting, you know, that's why they have that poured looking back because they're molded into starch, right? So it's like, it's all about getting your moisture levels right and just not rushing it. Like, those gummy bears take a couple days to make. So they're, you know what I mean? And so it's all about getting the moisture level, right? Having them dry in exactly the right rate. That's why gummy bears, they don't last in the bag, right? You could tell if you got an old one because they turn hard and the young ones that are just right, have the right texture. So, I mean, I would look at, you can look in some of the old books like, uh, like that one I mentioned a bunch of weeks back, I don't have the name in my heads by Kirkland called Professional Petisserie from like the 18, like early 1900s, because they have all the cornstarch recipes, but there are some modern books that also talk about
+
+[16:07] that. I don't know where the Torah Blanca's book talks about that, but he talks a lot about cornstarch and molding. And it's interesting, interesting stuff. European-based jellies are more based on pectin, but that's more of those fruit slice textures that your teeth
+
+[16:18] sink into. And they're not the same as a gummy bear. Also good, I think probably easier and faster to make. Yeah, all right, that's cool. The one other problem I was having is when I coated them with citric acid, I was getting a little bit of bleeding. You know anything about that? What do you mean bleeding? Me, from your tummy, after they went to hide and drive them properly, but they, uh, they, uh, the other thing
+
+[16:38] was, I was doing half citric acid, half sugar, because I didn't want to cut it with pure citric acid. I think it was the sugar. When it contacted the jelly, it started, uh, leeching water. Hmm, that's interesting. It probably just wasn't. I mean, I've never done a coating of a candy like that. They probably make the candy 1st and then spray it with something so they can pan it. Do you know what I'm saying? So they probably have a, I don't know that for certain. I'm saying that I'm saying that out loud just saying it, but that's how I would do it rather than try to control the
+
+[17:05] the powder and the candy making at the same time. But then... cornstarch or something like that. Well, they mold them in cornstarch, and then they probably, they probably have something that they paint paint on to pan. I'm not sure what, like maybe an alcohol or something and then get it to adhere. But I don't know. I'd have to look into it, but the citric acid shouldn't cause you any problems, but go ahead and get some other acids too. Get mal acid, get tartaric acid. All right, well, when I go and find my gum Arabic, I'll look for those too as well. All right, give us a holler. a lot. All right, thanks a lot, Dave. All right, bye. We're going on to our 1st commercial break on cooking issues. Well, I know it's kindly I hope I didn't wake it. But what I've gotta say can't wait. I know you'd understand the end. Every time I tried to tell you the words just came out wrong. So I have to say I love you in a song. Yeah, no, it's kind of strange. Every time I'm near you. I just run out of things to say. I know you'd understand. Every time I tried to tell you the words just came out. Welcome back to cooking issue. So that was Jim Croce. We haven't had Jim Croce as our middle music before, right, Nastasia? Oh, we love him. Yeah, we love Jim Croce, because I used to listen to it in my mom when I was growing up, used to play it all the time, but he has this song where he's like, Nastasia, I always joke about this. He has this song where he's like, I know it's kind of late. I hope it didn't wake you. And then he goes on to like have this like, like, crappy love poem where he's like, I hope, you know, I just called to say I love you in this song, but like, so nostalgia, I always go through it. We like, you know, it's the phone's ringing at 3 AM. You pick it up and you're like, who died? Who died? Who died? Oh, Jesus. And he's like, I know it's kind of late. You're like what? What? Gems. Snap out of it. Anyway. Okay. We have a question from, let's see which one we're going to take next. We have a question from Johnny Hunter and Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, I have a couple questions about using Activa RM in dry carrying meats, Activa RM, for those of you out there. Not in the note is Meat Glue. The wonderful, wonderful, wonderful product that glues any proteins together. Uh, first, uh, does it work to glue 2 muscles together and then do a dry cure? He was thinking this might be nice is he was trying to do a dry cured ham without the bone. It would allow for better shape and less air pockets, et cetera. That's true. The way they do a boneless, like a prosciutto, is they actually cure it bone in, and then they debone it and they have a very high pressure press that presses it into a ham shaped
+
+[19:50] mold. That's why all prosciuttos are the same shape because they've been crushed into that mold. These are the ones that are bonus. Okay, so yes, this would work. This would definitely work. I mean, make sure that you add some, you know, it might help you because you could salt in that interior portion. And so when you're curing your own ham, a lot of times you'll get taint or lack of cure along the bone
+
+[20:08] line because it's not going in, especially through the fatty areas. And so this would give you an opportunity to get some of the cure on the inside of the meat, as long as you didn't over salt it. And then you could still glue even over a light salting there and you're not going to get a lot of bacterial problems. I mean, the one main problem you're going to have from doing it is you're going to be introducing bacteria into something and then gluing it shut. So you want to make sure that you're killing bacteria right away there. So I would definitely put, um, some some nitrates, nitrates, rather, or trites, I guess, ham trades and some salt, enough salt to kill whatever ails you on the surface of that because otherwise you're going to be in deep, deep,
+
+[20:40] doo-doo. don't want you to get anybody sick. Second question on Miklu was about rolling cured bellies. Tom, he mentions Thomas Keller's recipe in under pressure for rabbit bacon. I was like, rabbit bacon, that's crazy. Rabbit bacon? That's a pain in the butt. Think how small the belly on a rabbit would be, but he didn't mean that. He meant rabbit with bacon, not bacon made from the bellies of
+
+[21:01] rabbits because even Keller's not that decadent to like kill a 1000 rabbits for one serving, although maybe he is. I don't know. I mean, I don't really know the guy. So basically what Keller does is he layers rabbit up with bacon using Activa using meat glue. And Johnny's tried this with a couple of different animals, including rabbit and goat. And after he cooks the bellies and slice them and roast them in the oven, they come apart. So, Is there any way to do it since the meat doesn't separate when it's cooked at a high temperature,
+
+[21:28] thanks a bunch? So, here's the problem. I read Thomas Keller's recipe in the book, and it's not apparent how much kind of meat glue you have to add, and he's layering slices of bacon together
+
+[21:39] with like one layer of meat glue. You need to make sure, 1st of all, when you're gluing things that have a lot of fat. You're not actually gluing the fat. What you're doing is gluing the connective tissue, the collagen and the different proteins that form the network of the fat before it's rendered, which is why you can't glue rendered fat.
+
+[21:54] You can only glue, glue, native fat. Native fat? Yeah. Uh, so, uh, basically, if it's rendered, it can't be glued. What you are gluing is the stuff that ends up being a chichirone, if you were to cook it long enough, that's that protein residue. Okay. So you want to make sure that all of it has a thin dusting of meat glue on it. And then even at high temperatures, the stuff won't come apart. If you brutalize it, like you fry it in an oven, sometimes the violence of the frying can make the meat pieces come apart, but the bond itself won't be
+
+[22:22] damaged, as long as you have enough meat glue, such that connected tissue is always touching connected tissue. So I would make sure that you get both sides of any belly that you were doing, you might even want to switch instead of using Activa RM using Activa GS, which uses gelatin as its bonding agent. It's going to be a little bit stronger of a bond. And also you can paint it on to make sure you're not missing anything. Just don't add too much liquid or it's going to be a problem. Uh, Keller also recommends an under pressure using a, like a, like a sieve, like a handheld sieve. Dont use that. Use like a cocoa duster because it's going to get a much finer coating. So you should be able to get it to work if you if you do it. And on side note, I had a lot of comments on our blog recently, coming from nutjob wing ding freak shows, who are anti-meat glue because of some knee jerk reaction that they think they're going to the butcher, and their butcher is serving them some sort of like hacked up piece of hamburger and selling it to them as a whole steak, and it's all based on some crappy,
+
+[23:14] crappy exposé in quotes because it's not an exposé. an exposé of something that's not happening on a show in Australia called Today Tonight Show. The show itself has an oxymoronic freaking name today tonight. It's a dumb name for a show. Only, you know, I don't understand like, unless you're a listener, in which case producers, I love you or love your show, have me on. But the, basically, it's, it's saying that, like, some of the quotes that are absurd to anyone who's ever used meat glue before, are, um, even an expert can't tell that something's been glued together with meat glue, and anyone who's ever looked at a piece of meat
+
+[23:48] before in their lives can tell the difference between a bunch of scraps glued together and
+
+[23:53] foist it off as a whole cut of meat and, uh, and one that's been, you know, that it's a real honest to God muscles. So I think they're making a kind of 10% in a teapot about a problem that doesn't really exist. And they're also saying how it's a bacterial nightmare. Well, because when you're using meat glu, one of the things you have to be really careful of is that you're taking and you're putting things that possibly contaminated with bacteria on the inside of your meat, which before you thought was relatively
+
+[24:16] sterile. Uh, but the trick with that is, is it's not, it's not that that's unmanageable. It's just knowing that's what you're doing. And anyone who's properly trained using meat glue knows that they have to kill that bacteria that they put on the
+
+[24:26] inside. So I encourage all of the listeners of this to go around, find these blog posts with these morons who think
+
+[24:33] they, they also say, it's banned in the EU. Well, it's not banned in the EU. Thrombin-based meat glue is banned in the EU, not transgutaminase, which is from an enzyme. Thrahmen's a blood clotting factor that's used as a meat, was used as a meat loose band in the
+
+[24:46] EU, and it was banned in the meat, in the EU for dumb, dumb reasons. It was banned because the morons who were doing the legislation. Couldn't think of a valid use for it because they're not cooks. There's another problem of a non-cook. And they saw too much of a problem where you might do something fraudulent. And so they ban the use of that, but didn't ban the use of the other one, which is more prevalent. The thing that makes me really angry about this, is that it's so easy to bind together meats with crappy binding agents like
+
+[25:12] Carragin and like the way they make dog food. Everyone, when they see a bound piece of meat, thinks it's been bound with meat glue. Meat glue is actually an expensive and nice way to buy things together without the use of a lot of fillers and gelling agents, which is how people can rip you off if they really feel like they're going to rip you off anyway. So go out there and smack these people upside the head with some knowledge because they need it. Okay, sorry. Okay. And from Australia, this is from James. Hey guys, greetings from Australia. I'm assuming James is not a member of the Australia Today Tonight Show. Hopefully not. He's been enjoying the blog for a while, so it's probably not, and getting into the podcast. So he has a question for the show. He's been struggling with oven spring in his bread for 2 years and he's stumped. So far, I'm going to be him now. So far, I've managed to work my way through every single problem apart from the vexatious side bust out. So when he's cooking it, the oven spring. What's happening is instead of going along where he slices the bread, he's getting a burst in the seam
+
+[26:05] along the bottom of the bread and splitting it on the bottom, which is not what he wants to have happen.
+
+[26:09] And he's tried all the different kinds of things you can try, varying his different hydrations from 60 to 85%, using autolysis, which is a process where you start the mixing of the flour, knead it a little bit, let it rest for a while, and then knead it again, mixing different batters, making different kinds of starters, different kinds of
+
+[26:29] hand, hydration, different kinds of mixing, different kinds of flowers, et cetera, et cetera, different kinds of salt, ratios, different kinds of risings, different proofing levels, different baking, yada, yada,
+
+[26:40] yada. So he was wondering what the heck is going on. And so he says that sometime he now uses a different esteam technique, where it's called steam via ice, where everyone who bakes bread knows it, that steam formation
+
+[26:53] for many types of bread, steam formation in the very beginning of bread baking is extremely important.
+
+[26:57] And so he's been trying, uh, one of the ways that you throw ice in and it gives you a constant rate of steam because the oven can't evap can't melt and evaporate it all quickly
+
+[27:05] enough, so you have a steam that lasts a little while, whereas if you just throw water in, a very well
+
+[27:09] vented, uh, home oven will just obliterate the steam and you're not going to get enough steam. So he wants to know what to do. Well, I was going to say that most times when you get a bad burst in the bottom, it's actually because you're
+
+[27:20] using, you're not doing a good enough forming technique, assuming that everything else is okay. You're not like giving a good skin to it when you're forming it around. But you say you've tried that. Um, so I would go, I, you know, when I have a question, I don't know whether the baking community respects them, but I like going to the
+
+[27:35] fresh loaf, which is a blog, uh, which is pretty interesting. And also, there's a kind of a nut, and I appreciate nuts. Um, there's a guy um, named uh, uh, Steve B, and I forget what
+
+[27:46] his uh, what his uh, blog is, but you can find him, Steve B. He experimented with a lot of crazy stuff and he found a steamer that is, I think, I also forget the name of the company that manufactures the steamer, but basically what you do is you take a hotel pan, you drill a hole in
+
+[28:01] it. You put it over your bread as soon, like as soon as you put it on your stone, and then you, you, you take, and you rig up a garment steamer with a nozzle, and you pipe steam into the hotel pan for like 20 or 30 seconds, and then put it in the oven, and then a couple minutes
+
+[28:15] later take it off, and that more closely mimics the steam that you're going to get out of an oven, and I have never used it, but it looks really interesting, something you might want to try.
+
+[28:23] And so, and there's a couple of people on the web now experimenting with these like handheld steamers and hotel
+
+[28:28] pans, upturned hotel pans. So, um, I mean, I wish it was still wintertime. I mean, it kind of still feels like it. But I wish it was because it's hard for me to do a lot of baking
+
+[28:38] and because my oven gets like mighty hot, mighty, mighty, mighty hot. In addition, I'm curious about like what the actual mechanism of steam is because it seems kind of confused. People say multiple things that like, I'm going to have to do more research on the actual, everyone knows that steam at the beginning helps the crust formation, everyone.
+
+[28:53] But a lot of the scientific explanation seems kind of bogus. And I started reading some of the documentation this morning, but I didn't have time. So maybe that's something we'll deal with later on a different, on a different whoozy, what's it? right? So why don't we then take our 2nd commercial break? And while we're going to it, why don't you remember to call in two, 718-497-2128? That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:20] Operator. What could you help me place this car? See the number on the matchbook is old and faded. Living in L.A. With my best old ex friend, Ray. Gosh, you said you knew well, and sometimes hating. Isn't that the way these say it goes? Let's go get all out and give me the number if you can't find it. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Tune in to the speakeasy every Wednesday at 3 p.m. where host Damon Bolte will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid universe, with guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors, roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between.
+
+[30:26] Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, bar history,
+
+[30:30] distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 PM on the Heritage Radio Network. You know, Jim Croce is visiting hell on that operator. Operator is just trying to do her job. You know, and he's talking about his best old ex-friend, Ray, who, I admit, is a jerk for running away with his woman. Or maybe the woman ran away with him. Well, it takes 2 to Tango. takes 2 to Tango. Dear old best old ex-friend, was it? Best old ex, yeah. Then he ends up non-placing a call. Yeah, jerk. Anyway. So, I have good news that I actually did something I said I was going to do, and I ordered an arrow press. coffee, so I can finally say what I personally think about the AeroPress coffee. We talked about it a 1000000 times on the air. It only costs 2495, so I ordered on Amazon, and it makes a perfectly fine cup of coffee. I might use it now as my as my take in my bag coffee maker, but here's what it doesn't make, espresso. That's it. Doesn't make espresso. But on an interesting note, coffee thing. I learned something recently that there's this thing called cup of excellence. Have you heard this? Cup of excellence. So what they do is they get all these people from every different country. Every different country has its own cup of excellence. A lot of coffee producing countries, and there's a huge competition where they're cupped again and again and again.
+
+[31:49] And then the winner and all these small lots are auctioned off and someone has to buy the whole auction. So, for instance, Dallas Brothers, who is one of the sponsors, the museum thing. We did the latte art judging contest, gave me a bag of Rwanda's 2010 Copacama co-op cup of excellence coffee. And it sells for a lot more than regular coffee. It's like $30 a pound green, green, wholesale, green. Uh, and uh, it was very, very good. Cup of excellence. Go to, to check it out, go to cup of excellence.org. Anyway, uh, so I thought that was interesting. No? No? Yes, no, moderately interesting. All right. You still have about 25 seconds because I got 2 more questions to answer. To call in your questions, two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. Okay. Colin, good old Colin. Oh boy. What? This is not, he said specifically, uh, this has been a cuss free question. Yeah, but it's also a controversial question. It is? All right, let's read it. No, it's not actually weed. seaweed. Nastasia only... I read the 1st sentence and then I forward it at 6 AM today. Yes, that's what happened. That's what happens. So she's like, 0 my god, he's talking about weed. Seaweed. You know, with Colin, nothing is like what it seems. Uh, in honor of the, this is Colin speaking. In honor of the upcoming 420 holiday, although 420 is a holiday for me. It's my wife's birthday, but Easter is actually Nastasia's birthday, which is 424. Well, Jesus was born yet. Reborn. Reborn. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, so this year, Nastasia gets Easter. I've had Easter on my birthday before, yeah, Jen's had Easter on her birthday before, one of those crazy ones. Anyway, Colin has a question that pertains to weed. And of course, is there some sort of cannabis related holiday? 420 is the Jack, you know more. Wow. So it's not Easter? that that us old fogies aren't familiar with? It's been around forever. All right, whatever. Colin has a question about weed. Of course, I'm not really interested in cannabis. Of course you're not. It's seaweed that catches your his fancy. Seaweed salad is freaking awesome with its al Dante
+
+[34:00] crunch and ubiquitous sesame dressing. Since they don't speak Chinese, I guess, or Japanese. I've been able to track, I haven't been able to track down good weed to use in a salad. I see the fresh stuff in some Asian groceries, but the sections near the sea cumbers where nobody bothers labeling stuff in English. A project I've been sitting on for a few years is to try cultivating seaweeds in order to have fresh unlimited supply of weed. I just saw a McGee's on food and cooking that says Wakame kombu and sea lettuce are commonly used in salads. And so he wants to know if I have any tips, what he should look for in market or what species make a good salad, any tips on prep, and have I, and since I've used
+
+[34:31] saltwater aquarium before, made them, do I have any tips on sourcing and growing some hydroponic weed?
+
+[34:35] Okay. The problem is that a lot of the seaweeds that you use are too big to basically, uh, to basically grow in a normal situation, although things like Wakame
+
+[34:44] are, you know, and, you know, kelp and all these things are routinely farmed. I mean, that's how they do it. Like, you very rarely get wild anything anymore, but it's just they're so big that it's
+
+[34:54] hard, it's hard to do. You can gather your own on the coast, which I've done a bunch of times with limited success. Unfortunately, I haven't done any research recently. Back in the day, the book that, you know, that everyone had was called cooking with sea vegetables by Sharon Ann Rhodes. Unfortunately, it's kind of like, and this is nothing against anyone. It's kind of hippie dip, and I'm much more into like straight up, you know, killer information and like
+
+[35:17] pictures, and this looks like it was written in the 70s or 80s, and I've had it probably, you know, since forever. And it's like all black and white and it's not really up to date. Someone needs to tell me if there's an up-to-date new seaweed book. But how you use a seaweed depends a lot on what, Oh, if you want a good website. It's interesting. Uh, the person who made it apparently doesn't want you to find it because it's very hard to find, but it's seaweeds of the Pacific Northwest
+
+[35:42] by uh, Briana Gutchmidt and her the website. I don't have here the name of it, but she has a Pendiva, Florida slash seaweed or something like that. But she has good pictures of all different seaweeds that you can get in the Pacific
+
+[35:55] Northwest and how they taste because she ate them, which is pretty cool. So she has a good list. I recommend you go to that. pendiva.com slash seaweed. Wow, Jack's the best. Yeah. Anyway, he's on top of especially because you called him out. I know, I know, it's not right. It's not right. So not right. So anyway, I suggest you collect your own. I done it. Some people suggest against collecting your own because once seaweeds have been ripped off of their rocks, you don't know how long they've been batting around in the ocean and therefore
+
+[36:23] there might be, they might be, I don't know, rotting or something like that, but I've never died so far from collecting wild seaweed. Oh, by the way, going back, one thing you can raise in your aquarium by the, is certain varieties of sea lettuce, green laver. You can raise in an aquarium. It's going to be an expensive proposition, but you should try it. And knowing you, you probably will. So you should probably give that give that a shot. Um, I think how you treat it depends on what it is. So for instance, even something like kombu. We use it in a salad after we've used it to cure and cook a duck.
+
+[36:55] So, like, Nils would have this old recipe where he would wrap a duck breast in kombu, because kombu curing that is awesome, right? And then after we cooked it, we'd peel it off, and then we'd slice it finally, and then you could eat it, and it was really crunchy. Same thing with macame. If you don't oversoak it, right? It's still got a little bit of crunch, you slice it thin, and then you can have it as a nice as a nice salad. So how you use a seaweed is going to really depend on what state you get it in, you're going to have to refresh it. Um, and, uh, you know, usually it's dried, so you're going to have to refresh it. If you get it fresh, I would just, here's what I would do. In general, if you see something in that in that market, just buy the hell out of everything, just buy every damn thing, and then taste it, and then,
+
+[37:33] you know, just try to compare pictures on the internet to what you can find, because there's a relatively few number of ones that are commercially sold. You know, you know, your Wakame, Hijiki, uh, RMA, uh, you know, lovers, noris, different types of kelps. So you should be able to do a mix and match, and then remember the characters names. I remember once I went to Chinatown looking for pig's bladder, which is legal to get in the US. And what I did is I went on, I went on Google and translated pig's bladder
+
+[37:57] into, into Mandarin and then printed the characters out and then drew a picture of a pig with its bladder and then pointed to it. And I think I got my point across because they were laughing their butts off, but they didn't give it to me, apparently, because it's illegal here. All right. So, since we don't appear to get any more clothes, our last story for the day will be what we're going to do tomorrow. We're going to tomorrow eater. Really? Yeah, a little too early for a burger, frankly, but eater is going to come to my house because I no longer have the kitchen anywhere. We don't have a kitchen in Brooklyn yet, and I don't have a kitchen in the FCI anymore. So since I'm kitchen list, I'll be cooking it at my house, which actually has a pretty... I mean I have a sweet kitchen. Now? Sweet kitchen. Anyway. Um, So, uh, we're supposed to do our version of the ultimate burger. Now, the problem is it's so many people have done their versions of the ultimate burger, right? You have the modernist cuisine version of the ultimate burger, which involves a lot of
+
+[38:53] steps, you know, they cook their burger actually for a long time. I'm not a fan of cooking a hamburger for as long as they are. I'm not saying I'm not a fan, but it's not for me because like certain types of meat can take on a kind of
+
+[39:05] gaming livery note that I don't really, that's not for me in a burger. Like for me, like the longest I'm going to want to cook a burger is probably about 4 hours. That's about it. Not tomorrow because I'm not waking up that early to put a burger anyway. Anyway. So like, you know, I also don't like vacuum packing burgers down because I think they get too kind of smashed. So I'm a fan. The way I like to do it is to take the meat mixture. Give it a quick fry to set it, and then put it. grind bacon into it, though. Okay. It's delicious, right? I was thinking I was going to use a combination of short rib, chuck, and bacon, right? Grind it. I like a real loose pack and relatively thick and then fried quickly just to keep the surface intact. Then I'm going to put it into probably butter, or maybe maybe like a butter that's been mounted almost like a beurre blanc with some hyper-reduced beef stock. I haven't decided yet. And then, because my wife, right, my wife's birthday tomorrow. So I really shouldn't be doing this, it's my wife's birthday. Because you already did this. On her birthday. Yeah, yeah, but listen, she's not going to be there. It's going to be in the morning. My wife is flying to Boston tomorrow. So I have all day to fix whatever I do, right? To get a new place. I'm not going to get, come on. The place is fire proof. Anyways, I'm going to get because this is the best way to finish a burger off, right? I'm going to cook it in butter in a bag at about 55 degrees for a couple of hours. I'm gonna pull this sucker out. And then I'm going to build a small bed of hardwood coals on the inside of my house under my hood in the
+
+[40:30] miniweber that I have. I'm gonna build the temperature up till it's about the temperature of the surface of the sun, such that it's basically melting the
+
+[40:37] weber into my, into my stove. that's my weber. Well, I let you have it. You never took it home. I bought it and was never reimbursed for it. So yes, I gave it to you and I'm going to use it one more time before you take it. You've had a year and a half or more to take it to your house and you never have. I've moved it like 3 times. Yeah, yes, you definitely have cooking issues. So anyway, I'm going to fire it up in my in my house, and I'm going to grill, like hyper grill it basically on the surface of the coal to put a nice crust on it. And then I'm gonna do my favorite bun. And here's my favorite bun. It's, it's, um, um... No, close. Beef on Weck style from Buffalo. It's going to be caraway seed and salt on English muffin, homemade English
+
+[41:18] muffin, and I think just regular cheese. I think just regular cheese. What, like, American cheese? Oh, something. I don't know. Maybe you like Gruyre? Like Gruyere. And then, and then I'm probably like a, the modern cuisine do a really cool thing where they, they
+
+[41:31] take, and they, they flash and fuse a, uh, tomato with, uh, like a vinaigrette or something like that, which is a really good idea, but since it's not tomato
+
+[41:39] season, I can't get a decent tomato. I might just use pickled green tomatoes. I'm gonna do the pickle and the tomato at the same time. I like fresh onions, so I'm gonna put some fresh onion on it. Nastasia, giving me the give me the stink face. grilled onions. Grilled onions, but I have a freaking grill there. I don't like, I don't, to me, okay, just a matter of personal opinion. We can grill some onions for you, but to me, a grilled onion is in between. It's not a sautéed onion and it's not, I mean, it's this in between crap. Raw Indians give me nightmares. What do you mean? like really? Like, how so? Why? I don't know. My mom told me. Well, wow. Okay. Well, I'm going to leave everyone out there with the image of Nastasia having onion nightmares and come back next week for cooking issues where hopefully we can discuss some of these onion nightmares.
+
+[42:23] cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[42:45] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. All twisted. Whole Foods Market celebrates Earth Month with Do Something Real Film Festival, a collection of 6 provocative character driven films focused on food, environmental issues, and everyday people with a greater
+
+[43:09] vision. Come see one of the 6 features at City Cinemas Village East from Saturday, April 16th through Thursday, April 21st, every night at 6 p.m. Learn more about the films and special events at www.doSomethingreal.com. That's www.dosomethingrreel.com. Sponsored by Whole Foods market.
+
+[43:38] In 2010, escapemaker.com won an Emmy award for their agratourism website. So this year they thought, why not bring agrotourism and green getaway ideas right to you, come to the green getaways, local food and travel expo on April 30th at one Hanson Place, home of the Brooklyn
+
+[43:53] Fleet and former Williamsburg Savings Bank, presented by Amtrak,
+
+[43:57] ZipCar. I love New York, the carbon free event will be a day filled with food, prizes, workshops, and kids' activities. Over 50 getaway destinations, from counties to local farms and bed and breakfast within a day's drive or train ride of New York City, will be exhibiting on the main floor and in the huge bank vault downstairs. See what's hot in sustainable travel and receive special show only discounts. Row NYC will be doing workshops on the green market, and Appalachian Mountain Club will offer workshops on adventure bicycling and hiking via
+
+[44:25] Mash Transit. Escapemaker.com will be giving away over 50 getaway prizes ranging from zip line adventure passes to an overnight stay at Mohawk Mountain House. Travel greener, eat local. Come to the expo on April 30th. Get your tickets now at www.escapemaker.com. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something and it is delicious. The fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey, at an amazing value with the fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements and balance blood sugar levels. It's a no brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
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+[0:00] The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The fairway label honey is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey at an amazing value with the fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, Honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners, and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balance blood sugar levels. It's a no-brainer. Get your fairway honey today.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday. I'm joined here in the station today with, of course, Nastasia
+
+[0:56] De Hammer Lopez and Cooking Issue's own webmaster and friend, Jerry Lavish. Hello, Jerry. How you doing? Hey, Nastasia. Busy texting your buddies. Too busy to do a radio show, are you, Nastash? All right. Call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 with any and all of your cooking or non-related cooking questions.
+
+[1:18] So before we start, I'm going to address a little blog business for those of you that go read the blog and I encourage you, even though I haven't been posting as regularly as I should have. I have like 15 posts that I need to write. It's not that I'm lazy, although that's also true. I actually do have a lot of other stuff going on, and I need to get the ability to just jot off like a couple 100 words
+
+[1:38] hit and hit post, but so far I haven't been able to do that as much as everyone in the world tells me I should,
+
+[1:44] right? Right. For some reason I just can't do it. Anyway, so one of the things is cooking issues has a form section that has apparently been overrun. I'm putting Jerry on the spot here, but it's been overrun by spam, and we are actually attempting to solve this problem, right, Jerry? It's actually solved. It's solved. See how little I know? It's been solved. So Barzole and all the rest out there. Please come back. We love you, and we want that stuff to survive and flourish. So we have, I guess, who's running now? You are running it. and also, Vicki is running it, Victoria, or it just, it's
+
+[2:17] just, Jerry. Jerry's the man. Jerry is a new father, a computer consultant extraordinaire, and we force him to do our blog work on the side. Jack, is that a caller I heard coming in? Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hey. My question is fairly simple. I make pizza dough and every time I do it, it seems to shrink when I try to roll it out. Hmm, meat, well, give me your exact procedure. I just make a regular door. use a KitchenAid usually. Right. Um, you know, food processor with the dove
+
+[2:52] hook and uh, all the rest and stuff arise. And then when I go to roll it out, it, uh, you know, rolls out pretty good, but as soon as I pull back with the uh, rolling pin, it sort of snakes back into a smaller piece. Yeah, the 1st thing I look at is, uh, the dough is probably fairly stiff. I would move to a higher hydration,
+
+[3:14] more water in the dough. Probably is going to help you. And I don't know, like, I'll, I'll tell you this. Another thing is I would move away if you can from using a rolling pin. I find it, to me, it negatively affects the texture of the pizza. To me, the texture is much better when it's kind of, you don't have to be able to flip it in the
+
+[3:32] air, like, you know, like a, like a, but, you know, basically using your fist and stretching
+
+[3:35] it is helpful to me. I always liberally flower it before I, um, before I start, you know, pulling it out. But I'll tell you my procedure in a nutshell and see if this helps. I use a fairly, I don't use as high a hydration go as the Naples style guys. I'm somewhere usually in the area of like 70, 75%, which is too stiff for real pizza
+
+[3:58] aficionados, but that's kind of what I do. I use a fairly high protein flour. And so for every 1000 grams of flour, I'll have in it roughly 700 grams of water, or 750 grams of water, in that range,
+
+[4:10] 7750. And a little bit of yeast, and I allow it to do a very, very long initial rise, and another thing that's even more important than the needing is, is, to really good way to get texture is to make the dough the night before, break it into your pizza size
+
+[4:25] chunks, and then throw them into court containers, covered in your fridge. It's called retarding the dough. That's also going to improve your dough texture and flavor by allowing the yeast to act on it longer, but you have to use a smaller amount of yeast.
+
+[4:36] So for your texture rolling back, I would say one of the main things is, is if you stretch it out, it won't pull back as
+
+[4:42] much. There's always going to be a certain amount of snap back, but when you roll it, I think it's going to snap back even more. Is this making any sense or is this not useful at all? Well, do I try it? No, parts of it makes sense. My general procedure, I start off with the, you know, the sponge is pretty
+
+[4:58] wet, and as I'm needed, and I continue that flour until basically it's sticky, but it's not, um, or it's tacky, but not sticky. Right. That sounds, you know, sort of like a posted note, sort of stickiness by end point. All right. When I try to do it, I mean, I'm not sure it was, you know, try to push it on the
+
+[5:19] board to sort of make a disk and let it hang and thin it out that way. Uh, I find that works pretty good until I lay it down flat and then it, you know, it's like, you know, elastic
+
+[5:29] on, uh, your underwear sort of shrinks back in real fast. I mean, maybe you're not proofing it out enough. Maybe you got to let it rise a little longer. You always are going to get a little bit of a little bit of a snap back. Have you done? Can you pull a window on it? Have you done the window test? Is it stretch really well or is it? I can get a gluten window without any problems. Yeah, so it sounds like your dough is okay. It's maybe, you know, overstretch it a little bit a little bit thinner before you drop it because invariably I get some snap back, but I don't get like rubber bandy snap back. Is the dough warm or cold? When you rest it, do you rest it at room temperature or you're resting in the fridge? It's a room temperature, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and like I usually make enough, so I wind up dividing it up and freezing parts of it. And then I thought out in the refrigerator, next day, let it come to room temperature, in the room, and it does the same stuff. You let it do its actual second, like, it's proof out in the room, so it's actually rising, and it's dead at room temperature, not cold at all when you do it. Because if it's cold at all, it will snap back. How's this interesting? you know, if here's a technique that no one no one say I do this, all right? No one's going to say I do this, but when I make pizza, I usually am making 8 fairly large ones at a
+
+[6:39] time, and I don't want to make them to order. So what I'll do is I'll actually, I'll use a very minimal amount of flour just enough to get it on my fist so I can pull it out into shape. And then I throw it onto a piece of parchment paper. It'll semi, the pizza will semi-stick to the parchment paper because it's, it's, you know, I hadn't
+
+[6:55] flowered the parchment at all. So the dough will kind of stick to the parchment a little bit, which prevents any contraction. I'll then make my pizza on the parchment and I'll shove the parchment entirely with the pizza onto the stone for the 1st 35, 40 seconds up to a minute of
+
+[7:10] baking, depending on how hot my oven is, just until the bottom forms a crust and releases from the parchment. Then I'll quickly shove my peel and pull the parchment out and finish the bakeout on it. A couple advantages of this. One, I think I'll solve your snapback problem with it. Two, you can make a bunch of pizzas and put them on sheet trays and stack them up in your
+
+[7:28] kitchen ready to bake so you're not making pizzas every time you have to throw them into the oven. And so to me, those are huge advantages. The one thing you have to be careful of, especially because my oven goes up to 850 degrees, is the burning of the paper. So what you have to do is after you put the pizza down, even after you do the sauce and whatever, is to trim around the dough with
+
+[7:47] scissors, such that there's very little pizza overhanging the edge, and that'll prevent you from getting a lot of scorching or burn marks on the paper, and then remember to just get it out of the oven, you know, after it
+
+[7:59] on sticks. So in my oven, that's 45 seconds or so in your oven, maybe longer. I don't know how hot your oven gets. Yeah, I, it's about 525, you know, when I'm using it. Yeah, so you could let it go a little longer, but maybe that would help too, and also solve the problem of having to stand around in the kitchen the entire time your family's eating pizzas.
+
+[8:16] Well, it's only 2 of us, that's not a problem there. Yeah, for me, it's like always like 14 people. And so, I mean, you know, it's a nightmare to make them, you know, as they go in, it just it just crunches me up. But anyway, give that a shot. See if that helps out. Yeah, I'm just using AP Flower. Is that okay? Or should I be changing my flower? I mean, look, I've heard people make with all different hardnesses of flour, and I think, obviously, your hydration's going to change a little bit, but I, you know,
+
+[8:39] the, my favorite pieces that I make are made with Sir Galahad, which is a fairly high protein, like, but really good other than just the protein quality, just a really well milled, nice flour from King Arthur, but it's
+
+[8:51] not, unfortunately, generally available. When I'm making it at home, I use heckers, which is a
+
+[8:56] fairly, their AP is a fairly high protein AP. I wouldn't use like a southern style really soft AP. If you're using like a good northern style AP,
+
+[9:05] you know, that's a little bit harder. I think it's okay, or you can use the better for bread stuff that, but I never use the King Arthur's better for bread. I either use their Sir Galahad or I use hackers. What about, like, caponata, 00? I've never used it. I never bought it. Do you like it for pizza? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people are very particular on it, but like, you know, I'm lazier than I seem. And I seem pretty lazy. We have different flowers. Yeah, you don't, well, see, you're on the west coast? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you have some really, really good flowers out there. You have that that artisanal mill whose name is flown out of my head for some reason in San Francisco. You could also go to King Arthur, the website. Yeah, no, they'll sell Sirgal head over the website, and that makes a great dough, but it might be prohibitively expensive to ship it, you know, on a batch per batch basis.
+
+[9:48] But if you make a lot of, if you make a lot of pizza. I know they sell £50 sacks. That is how we get it, but anyway, I hope that how about the paper sounds like a good idea, though, right? Give that a shot next time around. Remember parchment, not wax. All right, thanks a lot for calling in. Okay, bye. Okay, we had an interesting comment in on the, I'm extremely fascinated with this irradiation of seeds thing, and it turns out there are other people fascinated with too. So it turns out that after we dropped, you know, the bomb in World War
+
+[10:21] II, I think horribly, especially the 2nd one. We then went on to do a whole series of nuclear weapons tests in
+
+[10:28] the atmosphere, underground, underwater, in the 50s and 60s, which make for some amazing viewing, by the way, if you've ever seen the videos of
+
+[10:37] them. It's just, I mean, completely compelling, awesome spectacle. Horrible idea, but completely compelling awesome spectacle. So one of the things they did was they irradiated seeds. And the reason they radiated them was to see whether or not we could re-germinate our seeds after we had been hit with a nuclear weapon, right? Now, our seat store is going to be obliterated, or the 3 people that survive the war, if they happen to have some corn with them, can they grow it again? Okay, so that's, you know, that was kind of the testing, but they found out they got some interesting mutations from this, and they started purposely irradiating seeds in an attempt to find seeds and shoots and leaves and plants in general, because you can also get mutations on the branch of
+
+[11:18] things that are called sports, right? And fruits. So, um, they were trying to get new varieties to find a peaceful way to use nuclear
+
+[11:25] radiation. And this spawned an entire movement. Now, I'm fascinated with it, but I don't really know that much about it. And we got a tip off from Tom Metcalf, our listener Tom Metcalf, who tipped us off to another person who seems extremely interesting. I've never met her. Paige Johnson, who's a garden historian, and she has a blog called gardenhistorygirl.blogspot.com. I never liked that blog, that blogspot sounds so weird at black, black, black, black. Anyway, she is apparently, and apparently from reading it, like one of the world's experts on
+
+[11:55] nuclear on Atomic Gardens, she calls them Atomic Gardens. So I encourage you to read everything she's written on it. She's going to write a book on it. And if you happen to be in London on the 7th of June, she's going to give a speech on it at
+
+[12:06] some like royal horticultural society who think of a jake. I wish I was in London because I'd love to go. It turns out, we used to do, we used to have these things called Atomic Gardens. what they would do, right? They would stick a pipe into the ground. full of like, you know, some some horrible, you know, gamma radiation, uh, you know, some radioactive element with, again,
+
+[12:26] with cobalt something, I think. They would sink it into the earth into a lead enclosure so that you could go look at the garden and the garden was arranged in concentric circles around the radiation stores.
+
+[12:36] And then as soon as you walked out with your Geiger counters after you collected your radiated stuff, they would, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, raise the radiation source back up and start nuking out
+
+[12:45] the, uh, the produce again. And there's pictures of them online. amazing stuff. anyway. So, thanks, Tom, for that update, and we're sure to hear more about Atomic Gardens. And I wish I could go see that speech. And you could also go to the wedding. In, oh, well, it doesn't. Is that the seventh? Is that the same time? He doesn't care. Yeah, you know, people keep saying the wedding. I'm like, I know someone that's getting married. No, it's like, but do people really care about this royal wedding? Unfortunately, yes. More so than the than the die and Charles thing? No, come on, right? Anyway. It's a natural extension This is not the this is not the royal wedding show. If you if you tuned in to listen to information about the royal wedding and whether or not what's her fang has gone into an anorexic
+
+[13:27] frenzy as a result of all the cameras on her, you've turned into the wrong place. I'm saying this, like, this is like what people tell me. I don't, you know, I wish that my television was in good working order, but I no longer have cable because I told my wife she could cancel
+
+[13:40] cable if I could do X, Y, and Z, never thinking she would actually pick up the phone and cancel cable. So I am cableless. I know nothing. Thank goodness about any of this. It's going to be on regular. But wait, you have an iPad? Yeah, but I don't you can't stream the news that I... the news that I used to watch. No, no. This is also not the, does Dave Arnold know what's going on in the world program? is only about, well, not only about cooking. Anyway, call in all of your questions too, 718. 497-2128. Committed. Wow, 718-497-2128. Cooking issues.
+
+[14:37] Very superstitious. Riding on the wall. Very superstitious. Let
+
+[14:52] us not fall. 13 months, baby. From the looking last. Telling me the bad love. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Hot Grease every Monday at 330 PM. Hakri strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward thinking schools of culinary thought to the minds and kitchens of everyday full. Each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum of food
+
+[15:33] enthusiasts, from internationally renowned culinary masters to moms in a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 330 p.m. hot grease on the Heritage radio network. My favorite title of any program here on the Heritage Radio Network, hot grease. Love it. isn't that the best title ever? I wish we could come up with a company name as good as hot grease. Awesome, hot grease. Anyway, call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. All right, so we have an interesting question in from Paul. Paul says, hi. Hi, I'm Jewish, and we're currently celebrating Passover. The 1st night of Passover comprises a Seder night, a big family meal with many readings, songs, and central to this question, symbolic
+
+[16:19] foods. Yes, this is true. One of the many symbolic foods that appears on the central seder plate is a roasted slash burned egg in its shell, which represents
+
+[16:28] the Passover sacrifice from 1000s of years ago. Preparing it is a royal pain in the blank, blank, blank, as it has a tendency to explode and create a smelly mess. In the past, I've roasted it in the oven raw, and this year I 1st boiled it, then roasted it. Both times it exploded. I then tried making a, which is a nightmare. And I then tried making a small crack in the shell, and this did not work either. Do you have any suggestions as to how one could do this reliably without having a huge cleanup job afterwards? Cheers, Paul. Interesting question. For me, especially for several reasons. One, I used to, when you're in college, I found a microwave, and they threw it away because the cord had been, you know, broken and they didn't know how to fix it. So I just fixed the cord. It was a $0 fix and I had, that's how I had my microwave in college, right? I didn't really use it to cook food. We used it to see what we could blow up in a microwave, right? So, of course, we did all the stuff that's now since become commonplace, marshmallows, CDs, which are awesome for about like, like half a second, and they form like lightning fingers, like the emperor is zapping you from Star Wars. Uh, you know, the the grape trick. Light bulbs were always the best. We found a case and a half of light bulbs and I must have blown up the entire case in half. 300 watt light bulbs are freaking amazing because they light up for a long time before they heat up the envelope of the glass and then explode. One time, actually, I had one blow up, such that it didn't shatter, it just blew a hole in the side of a glass, so it looked like one of those high speed photographs. Can't believe that I lost that. Anyway, one of the fun things to blow up in a microwave is an egg. The problem with an egg is that it doesn't reliably explode in the microwave when you nuke it. And you can nuke it for like 3 or 4 minutes, and just when you think it's not going to blow up, you walk up to turn off the microwave, and bam, she blows up, and I have to tell you, it is extremely impressive, and there's no piece in there bigger than your pinky. And yes, Paul, it pinky, pinky, you know, nail, that is. And yes, Paul, it does smell god awful. So I feel for you. However, I have roasted eggs in the oven many times, without them exploding. And I haven't done any particular prep work on them. And I'll tell you what, why and what. So, um, uh, Erveitis, uh, you know, a person that we like to make fun of here uh, on, on cooking issues, he's a French
+
+[18:36] dude, uh, who, you know, talks about, he's the guy who keeps saying molecular astronomy is a good term, no matter how much we tell him that that term is kind of disgusting
+
+[18:43] sounding. Anyway, it's his philosophy, his feeling anyway. That is 65 degrees Celsius egg has a perfect runny yolk in it because he cooks them in the oven. right? Anyone who has a circulator out there. Anyone out there in Circulatorland knows that a 62 degree egg is running and a 63 degree egg is set. 65 degree egg is most certainly not running in the center. And this may sound like a crazy like angels dancing on the head of a pin for people who don't cook using circulators and low temperature, but this
+
+[19:10] is, this is like, I don't know, I don't know what it's the equivalent of. I don't know, it's it's crazy. It's just nuts. it take it 250 or 400. Yeah, bingo. like, yeah, no, it's like cooking a cake in like a pizza oven at like 800 or like, or like deep frying water. The only person I know who does that is Alexander Talbot using methylcellus. Anyhoo. So it's crazy. But the reason why it doesn't work is because you get evaporative cooling off of the
+
+[19:33] egg, when he puts it into hit, because he does it in an oven, at 65, and as it's evaporating off, the temperature in the egg drops and it's actually only 62 inside the egg, which is why it works for him, even though it's theoretically flawed technique.
+
+[19:44] So to prove and test this, I cooked a bunch of eggs in the oven at a fairly low
+
+[19:48] temperature, though, at like, you know, 250, 300, 325 in that range, Fahrenheit now. We back on Fahrenheit. God's way to bake. Anyway, so, excuse me, all you Celsius people. Anyway, don't worry, I cook meat in Celsius. So, uh, it's interesting is you can look at the eggs. If the eggs don't have marks on the shell from where water is evaporating
+
+[20:09] out, and you can see them because they'll develop little brown spots on the
+
+[20:12] egg, where the stuff's evaporating off. Because as water evaporates out of the out of the shell, out of the egg itself. It undergoes myard reactions at a very low temperature, like similar to the way they would if you cook them in a pressure cooker, or if you did
+
+[20:25] hummean eggs by putting them in a pot and letting them cook overnight in a bread oven to eat, you know, for
+
+[20:30] your Sabbath meal on Saturday night, right? So they should turn brown, right, in the shell, even without burning, right? Which is amazing. But if you don't notice little little bits of water or pinhole brown marks all around the eggshell, it means that that eggshell is sealed.
+
+[20:45] So maybe your eggs are coated with something like wax or maybe you have a really, I use typically use crappy supermarket eggs that break really easily. Maybe you have like a free range egg that is really like has a really good shell. Like I know Wiley Dufrene right now is doing an egg and he's using some really fancy eggs with really happy chickens. Those happy chickens have very thick shells. So he's having a really pain in the butt problem, shelling them all. So I don't know what temperature you're running at, Paul, but try running at a lower temperature. It still going to turn brown, even at 350 or 325 because the Mayard reaction is going to be happening at those low temperatures. So don't worry about having those temperatures not be that high. Roast it lower, and I've never had one blow on me using that technique.
+
+[21:24] If you roasted higher, you might be able to build up pressure fast enough to have it explode. Apparently you can because you've told me you do. So anyway, Paul, give that a shot and let us know how it works out. How does that sound? Sounds good Dave. Good advice. I think if you're not getting the little brown marks, that the evaporative release
+
+[21:40] is also released of pressure. Yeah, exactly. So if you get those little pinholes, it means you're releasing pressure, you're not going to blow it. You're not getting pinholes, you're building pressure. she's going to blow, right? And just put cracking the shell in one place, especially, here's another thing, if you, if you actually, if you boil it beforehand, you might be having some water trapped inside might be harder actually to get the water out of the center.
+
+[22:00] I wouldn't, I put them in raw. And you might be plugging the plug in the Maybe, yeah. Shell as well. I put them in raw, uncovered. like, you know, on directly on the rack, which I shouldn't do because they might break. Uh, and, and that's, uh, that's how I do it, and I haven't had one blow yet. But maybe we should, well, next time it's somebody else's house. By the way, I'll try it at a higher temperature. And I thoroughly recommend that if you are going to blow up an egg in the microwave. If you if at 1st you don't succeed, try again. It takes longer than you think. If every 4 eggs, maybe one of them will blow up, and please do it in somebody else's microwave, right? you know, someone that you don't like. Like next time you get invited to someone's house to a party that you hate and there's a 1000000 people there and you can't believe you got invited there, just toss a couple
+
+[22:39] eggs in the microwave and walk away. Don't really do that. Don't don't do that. I'm getting a look like, I can't believe you're recommending this. I'm not. I not. I just kidding. When you're getting ready to replace your microwave, the last thing to do in the current microwave would be to blow up an egg. You would not believe what my microwave looked like. It had all kind of scorch marks on the inside. I mean, you know, I've done every awful thing you can do to a microwave. Well, I want to repeat that I could probably make the statement that no animals will harm during the process of this testing. No, everyone always asked me to, like, you know, have you put a live X, Y, or Z? No, no, no, especially vacuum machines. Everyone, every, every class I've taught is sous vide, not the, you know, the one for professionals who come in because they, they got a lot to worry about anyway.
+
+[23:17] But like every class I would teach on it. someone would ask me, have I put a live X, Y, or Z in the vacuum machine? I'm like, no, no, no. No. Although I do have a friend of mine, and this isn't one of those, a friend of mine, but it's really me, a friend of mine who threw a cockroach infested piece of kitchen equipment into the microwave because he just didn't know what to do.
+
+[23:37] He was like, ah, like this, threw it in the microwave, turned it on, they pop like popcorn is what I'm told. Yeah. I haven't done that in the microwave, but apparently that is a true enough fact story. Okay. Rolf Wynd writes in, he says, hello, Nastasia. doesn't care for me, likes you better. Well, he's writing me. All right, fair. I have a non-tech question for the show sometimes. It's not today. Today is a tech question. I've read widely disparate opinions on the suitability of previously frozen meat for making cured pork products. Specifically, I want to cure pork belly, which is a very good idea, for bacon and
+
+[24:07] pancetta and jowl for guanchale. Guanchale is one of the world's great products. Nostache is giving me a squinky face. How the heck could you give me a squinky face on Guancale? I over ate gonzale. I don't like it anymore. I've overeaten lots of things. Yeah, I just don't like it. You don't, what does that mean you don't like it? You like bacon? And you like pancetta? Yes. And you don't like guancelli. No, not really. It has like a sock flavor. No, that wasn't, that was like... Moldy. Yeah, I'm here to say no, that is not the case. I prefer, um, there's a bunch of the artisanal guancralis out there. I think a bit too dry. I like a moisture guanchala. For those of you, not hip to the fact. Guancale is cured pork jowl. You can cure it either flat or you can cure it uh, rolled up or you can cure it flat and then roll it up. I like them all. I, I, the one I use is rolled up. It has a higher fat percent, and they make something similar in the south called jowl bacon, but it doesn't taste the same to me because it doesn't have the same
+
+[25:05] spice, make sure not, that I usually get guancelli. Uh, in my, to my taste, there is no finer topping for pizza in the world than
+
+[25:12] Guancale. Guancale might be the best thing you can put on a pizza, going back to pizza. And what I like to do is, um, if you throw it on there, it doesn't need a lot of heat. You can just throw it on there raw and it'll crisp up. I slice it really thin, because it's mostly the fat, and I like the texture of the fat when it's real thin, and basically just the heat looks at it. and kind of shrivels it up a little bit, but doesn't make it hard and doesn't take away from the unctuousness of it. You done Lardo in pizza yet? I have, yes. I have. I like lardo is also a good product. Do you like lardo nastasia? So you like bacon, pancetta, and lardo, but not guancale. Folks, now you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis. I guess you don't like carbonara. No, I do like carbon, but I use pancetta instead of punch. Which, by the way, on carbon, please, not, look, I'm all for authenticity, right? But we are in the US of A here, and the smokiness accentuates the dish very nicely, thank you. And I think bacon tastes delicious in a carbon. Yes, it does. You're wrong. I am not wrong. I'm not saying it's authentic, right? Authentic, like, you know, okay, authentic carts don't have motors in them. And yet, I enjoy a cart with a motor on it to help me carry the stuff around. Authenticity isn't everything. Dave, I'm going to tell you that you may like bacon, cream and noodles. That's a good thing, but it's not caronara. Well, no, but as I'm saying, it's not authentic, but it's delicious. So for everyone out there saying that you that, like, somehow, you know, your taste buds are shot or, you know, it's just because you're an American or just because X, Y, and
+
+[26:42] Z. Hello, smokiness tastes good in that dish. It's just not carbonara. Me, me, me, me, me. It's delicious. Yeah, see, Jack? Yeah, that's for last week's comment, huh? Look, I'm here to say, look, also, I'm a firm believer in having the authentic dish, the way it's supposed to be prepared without any embellishments, without any changes, preferably in the location and by the people who make
+
+[27:06] it. So you know, because a lot of times it isn't just the preparation. It's the specific ingredients that someone has in a particular place cooked differently, they taste differently, the environment's different, they're cooking utensils are different. The way they handle ingredients is different. So if possible, you should go taste the taste the dish made by the people who are supposed to make it. However, once you've tasted that and you have a target in your head, feel free to do anything you want to it, including using
+
+[27:28] bacon, which is straight up delicious. Okay, I can't believe we've totally, we've totally sidestepped poor Rolf's question. Okay, so he wants to cure pork belly for bacon and pancetta and jowl for guanchale. But the heritage breed meats that he likes to use are available to him only in the frozen form. Just freezing alter the muscles in such a way as to change the salt curing process, and does the method of freezing make a difference? Aside from these specific questions, any insight on meats or cuts or applications that are especially freezing friendly or unfriendly. Thanks. He likes the show in the blog, regards Rolf. Well, thank you for liking the show in the blog. We appreciate it. Here's the story. First of all, it used to be, in the United States, that all the cuts of meat that you were going to use for curing all the pork was frozen for a deep freeze actually for a while to cure any trichinella in advance of curing it, which also is going to kill trichinella, you
+
+[28:16] know, the parasite. Very few, you know, the worm. I love a disease that's measured in worms per cubic centimeter muscle mass, right? anyway. So previously, most, if not all, the meat that we cured is frozen, right? Now, it turns out that, wait, there's a caller? This is going to take a while. So, Rolf, I'm going to come back to your question. take the collar and come back and we'll talk about freezing and meets. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, it's Brian in San Francisco. How are you? I'm all right. How you doing? Good. So, I got a bunch of gift certificates to, like, Amazon and Crate and Barrel and stuff because I got, I got married pretty recently. Congratulations. And thank you. Um, looking to get some new pots and pans and just kind of upgrade from the the crappy, um, mishmosh, uh, that I
+
+[29:03] have. And, um, I'm having some trouble trying to figure out exactly what to invest
+
+[29:09] in. I want to get stuff that's going to, going to last. And um, what, what, what are your recommendations? So you're looking for like a standard pot and pan set? I don't necessarily need a set, but, um, you know, I have, particularly, I have some pots that aren't, aren't very good. I have um, one pan that I like. I have some that are, um, non-sticks that are kind of old and and decrepit and
+
+[29:35] and uh, they're not so non-stick any, any longer. Um, I have thought about cast iron, but I'm not sure
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+[29:42] that that's the way I want to go for, for everything. Okay, here are my thoughts and then you can bounce some stuff off me. One, ditch the old, ditch the old, uh, uh, non-stick. get a new. everyone should have at least one non-stick lying around. I have a fairly big one and a fairly small one. Assume that they will get obliterated over the course of a couple years and that you'll have to throw them away. I'm, like, 14. I have like a four, but I have big burners. and an eight, right? Yeah. And so I so I get those. And then I assume that those things are going to be gone after a couple of years of use. Still, I'm not saying to get a cheap one. I don't know whether ScanPan fixed the problems that they used to have. ScanPan used to have some problems, but they're fairly easy and they actually have a warranty on them. So if you break them or, you know, ruin the coding, you can send them back, right? Invest in one invest in one good pressure cooker. If you get a good pressure cooker like Coon Recon, even though it's very expensive, the pot itself is quite a good pot.
+
+[30:37] And so you can cook with it without scorching on the bottom if you're doing onions or something before you're
+
+[30:42] going to add liquids to it to do a braised or a pressure cooker, right? Get one piece of cast iron. I have a whole bunch of cast iron, but get like, well, I would not get a new piece of cast iron. I would get, I would go to, seriously, go to a thrift store and find a piece of cast iron that has a polished face on it.
+
+[30:59] Current cast iron, has a pebbly surface. It's called as cast, whereas they used to sometimes do a machine surface finish or sanding on the inside surface of the pan, and those
+
+[31:09] ones, when they're seasoned, are like glass, and they're awesome, right? But that can't find a man. You don't want the enamel coded cast iron? You want you want one that's... Well, no, enamel's fine. Enamel's fine. For enamel coated cast iron, I would only get a Dutch oven. That's what I have. I have like the Lock Crusade Dutch oven, but any one of those enameled stab, any one of those guys is going to be fine. But I mean, is like, I would get one, I would, for everything else, I think the cast iron is going to be a pain in your butt unless you want to get a muffin pan or something because they're really heavy to lug around.
+
+[31:37] Um, I would get, um, but I would, I like having a cast iron skillet for biscuits and things like
+
+[31:44] that. And just because every once in a while I just feel like it. I feel like having cast iron because you can put it on the stove and crank the heat really high and walk away from it and not worry about it because it's not going to warp out on you and it's going to be
+
+[31:56] good. But I would get one from a thrift store or from a used source. So long as it's not been scrubbed. It's not too rusty and the service is glassy smooth. And it's hard to get nowadays because they're rough and pebbly, but I would get separately from your enameled one. right? I wouldn't subject an enameled one to the super high heat that I would suggest a black, you know, put a black cast iron skillet on, right? Now, for your standard pots and pans, I would go for any high quality pan
+
+[32:23] that you like the, that you like the look of, I use all cloud at
+
+[32:27] home, and they've stood up to years of constant abuse. I don't have any fancy all clad, but I'm not chilling out for all clad either. It's just, this is what I use at home. And I get a fairly wide variety. You gonna need a couple sizes of sauce, pan, uh, and, you know, at least one small, like, uh, like a skillet, uh, and then, uh, you know, a larger stock style pot. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a giant stock pot. The giant stock pot is the thing you should have that's cheap because you're only going to cook liquids in
+
+[32:58] it, and it does not matter the quality of the pot if all you're going to be doing is boiling water in
+
+[33:02] it, unless it looks so ugly that you can't stand, you know, looking at it in your house,
+
+[33:06] right? So all of like, I tend to go cheap on my huge pots that are only going to have water boiling in them. Does this make any sense what I'm saying? Yeah, um, what are you? what do you think? Um, I'm so like a, I understand what you were saying about the every, everyday pan, and are those, what are those made of, like the all clad? Oh, they steal, whether they, whether they, like, aluminum core? What's the? They have an aluminum core, and they have stainless steel, and a lot of them, I think, now a lot of the
+
+[33:35] all clads have the ability to go on induction fairly efficiently. They have, like, I guess, it's either magnetic stainless or the stainless itself is good enough with
+
+[33:42] induction that they can run induction or they can run, or they can run off of gas or electric. But you need that aluminum slug in the center for rapid and even heat conduction. Also, the alklad has an insane warranty. Really? I've sent I've sent 2 pans back. I've actually sent my my non-stick back twice and they sent me a brand new one. My one gripe with all clad is that the inside of the pan, you can see where the handle is riveted on. Now, I've seen in the school, I've seen those fail from extreme abuse, but at
+
+[34:15] home, they've never failed, but the one problem with them is, is they are difficult to clean out around the rivets, but that's my only real, that's my only real gripe.
+
+[34:22] Every other handler. What did you say? Yeah. The only the only time the only pans I've had that have had welded handles on, I've broken those welds off. So the rivets I've never broken. Barkeeper's friend is also something that makes it easy to clean. Yeah, get rid of this. So spend your money on the stuff that is gonna see a lot of high heat. frying, sauteing with, don't spend the money on something that's going to see mainly water, the exception being, uh, I would spend the money
+
+[34:51] on, on like a coon recon, uh, pressure cooker if you can, if you can afford it. They're expensive. They're like two, $300, right? Yeah, for one pop. That's expensive. That's like the... Yeah, but he's got to, look, he's got to also buy all these other pots and pans, you know, but for price of
+
+[35:06] one, uh, uh, you know, coon recon and get the big one, by the way. You know, you could get a whole set of a starter set of all clads, you know? What do you think about copper? You know, I've seen some like copper lining... Do you enjoy cleaning things a lot? I mean, just interior copper lining. Usually the copper slugs aren't big enough to have that much of an advantage. Copper is a better heat conductor than aluminum. Copper is the ultimate material from a heat transmission standpoint and they have a nice hefty weight to them. They extremely expensive. If the copper is showing, they're very hard to clean and keep clean. And the other problem is, is usually a lot of the people that have copper pans, they don't have enough copper in them. So you're not really getting the advantage, whereas the aluminum slug pans have a real thick slug of aluminum on the bottom of
+
+[35:50] them. And you can look at the bottom of your pan before you buy it. You should see it's going to have like a little basically shelf of aluminum underneath. You can see it in many pans. The bottom of the pan should be like a quarter inch thick. Yeah, they're thick and that's what you really, really want. So I wouldn't spend, I wouldn't go the extra money on copper unless you like to polish things. Like Thomas Keller's like that. He likes to polish things. Well, you know, but that's the only reason I think to... I bought my copper slug 8 years ago, 10 years ago. That was when the aluminum slug really wasn't a big deal and it was either copper or nothing. So now I think that with aluminum slugs, you don't, it's not a big deal anymore. Yeah, I have all, you know, and, you know, then there's a question of for your cheap, big stock pot. Is it okay to go all aluminum? You know, do you believe that aluminum touching the food is bad? I don't. And one of my big stock pot is aluminum because it's very lightweight and it's very tough and big, but like 6 gallons. I use my giant stock pot is a turkey fryer stock pot, six, you know, and that's really the cheapest way to get one of those things, but you have to be willing to have, it's
+
+[36:47] ugly, and you have to be willing to cook in aluminum. The only downside of those, I like to take that thing and stick it on an induction burner. Yeah, well, it depends on if you have induction or not. What do you have out there in San Francisco? Do you have induction, gas? What do you have? Nice. I like gas. Although induction's awesome. If I, if I, you know, but gas is, unfortunately, from an energy usage standpoint, still the way to go here in the
+
+[37:09] US. Has this been helpful at all? Yeah, this has been really great. I also read something that, like, many restaurants, basically they buy, like, cheaper pans, um, just because, like, they get so beat up, like you were saying,
+
+[37:21] like, at the school, they get really beat up, and they just, like, go through them, like, every 6 months. It depends on the restaurant. So it depends on the philosophy of the restaurant. I mean, I think like the finer restaurants, the philosophy is you treat all your equipment nicely, you treat all your food nicely, and you have decent stuff. Now, if you know you're going to abuse something on purpose, right? Or there's a process that obliterates things as a matter of course. The reason like, well, we use sizzle platters and whatnot. Those things are made of something that's not that expensive. But in general, the very high-end restaurants, they have respect for the food and the thing that touches the food, right? It's like a top-down respect for food that trickles down onto the plate and to the customer. In a less expensive restaurant where you're hiring someone who you do not trust, you know, there's no reason to hand that person a good piece of equipment because you don't think that they're going to respect it.
+
+[38:07] You know, you see what I'm saying? I mean, I'm a firm believer in not spending a lot of money if there's no use to it. But if there's a use to it, right? If the heat is more even, and therefore the food is going to be better, then get a better piece of equipment and treat it nicely. You know what I mean? I, I, I do. And I have some opportunity to get some nice stuff, which is why I called in. Um, so most restaurants use like the all cloud or do they end up using like, you know, fancy, fancy French brands and stuff like that, it
+
+[38:34] just, that aren't accessible to, um, It's chef to chef, but I see a lot of all clad out there. Well, a lot of restaurants, they exploit that lifetime warranty. You know, after they've scrubbed it. They, you know, because they get scrubbed with a, you know, with a Brillo pad and when they get really thin and you see it start to develop cracks. They just send it back to all clad, all cats sends another one. That's great. Great. Okay. It sounds like that's the way to go with the warranty. Okay, thanks a lot guys. Have fun out in your kitchen. more fun than buying stuff. All right, bye. All right. So back to Rolf's question here. So he's going to cure pork belly to refresh you what's going on and the freezing what happens. When you freeze meat, what's going on is that, especially if you freeze it slowly, is that you're not freezing the water on the inside of the cells, you're actually, the water is extracted from the
+
+[39:18] cells and the cells get somewhat dehydrated, the crystals form on the outside of the cells, right?
+
+[39:23] There's also a certain amount of the fact that those crystals, then as you store them in the freezer, they grow and they shrink, they grow and they shrink, and they puncture the cells, right? Then as it thaws, the water needs to reabsorb into the meat, but because you've ruptured some of the cells, and because it's impossible to get all
+
+[39:37] of the water back into the meat, you lose some liquid, right? And that's what's called drip loss. Now, things that are very fragile, like berries, you notice they just turn into a watery mess because all the
+
+[39:46] cells get kind of hurt, right? And that's really what's going on, is that you've perforated some of the cells and you've lost some of the moisture. So in theory, what happens in terms of actual penetration is that because you've ruptured some of the cells and there's a lot of liquid movement on the inside, you should be able to cure it faster,
+
+[40:01] right? It will take the cure even faster. So it's not going to hurt. Um, it's not going to hurt it from a curing standpoint to have uh, frozen it. Now, there are some people I read on the internet because I didn't even know it was an issue. There's some people on the internet who think that it's going to be having more of a bacterial problem if you thought and then cure it because I guess they're presuming that it's going to take a while to thaw it out.
+
+[40:27] But presuming that you have a good purveyor who froze it right, you know, when
+
+[40:31] it when it was ready, shipped it to you, frozen, and then you're thawing it and then quickly curing it. I don't think any extra bacteria from the time it takes the thaw is going to be a big deal. In fact, you don't, I'm not saying this, but you could probably start the curing process as it's thawing even because the salt will
+
+[40:44] help, you know, accelerate the thaw down. Now, the one thing I will say is that you probably should not cure the bacon and then freeze it because what happens is, unless you have a vacuum packing machine, cured meats, especially pork,
+
+[41:01] because believe it or not, the fat in pork has a good degree of unsaturation to
+
+[41:06] it. It's very unstable. Once it's been cured in salt and exposed to oxygen, has a tendency to go rancid. So if you freeze bacon, and it's not in a very, very good vacuum pack, along with some other antioxidants, like, for instance,
+
+[41:20] smoke, or maybe even some, like, you know, some, I wouldn't add ascorbic acid, but, like, something like sodium metabisulfate or something like
+
+[41:26] that. As an antioxidant, along with vacuumine. You'll notice that even in the freezer. Your bacon will get rancid very quickly and start developing the off flavors of fat rancidity. So I would definitely, if you were going to deal with a frozen thing, not freeze it after it's cured, I would freeze it fresh, thaw it, cure it, and then use
+
+[41:45] it, unless you're doing a super long cure when it's going to stick out, stay out for a long time anyway, in which case the water levels are lower, correspondingly your rancidity will be less.
+
+[41:53] And, believe it or not, the flavor that we like in a lot of old cured meats actually is partially fat man
+
+[41:58] acidity, kind of in a way that makes it taste good, right? So it's not always necessarily bad, like one person's rancidity is another person's delicious two-year-old,
+
+[42:06] Ibirico, uh, bayota fed, uh, uh, Hamon. So, let me see whether I've answered all of your questions. I think so. I would go ahead and cure and cure those cure those things. Now, one last question I have in from Brian Heslop. He says the recent museum fundraiser sounds like it was incredible, and it was, right? Yeah, very upset I missed it. Yeah, I know. It was it was quite good. He has a question about Wiley's dish. Now, for those of you that didn't see the blog, Wiley's dish was it was called Bone Appetite, Bone Appetite, because I gave him caveman food. And one of the things in it, you can go on the blog and look at it. One of the things was Inoki mushrooms that were looked like twigs. And he said, how did he make it? And I forget. I think he soaked them in some sort of like flavorful
+
+[42:48] broth, like soy, and then dehydrated them. And they, they, that's the only part of the dish I got to taste, and they tasted really good. Did you taste that dish? Yeah, by the Nastasia and I were actually running dishes? No, you were, but anyway, I was running dishes and by the time I came back to try and taste the, like, the leftovers, they were all gone. He had another question. Have I ever looked at importing gear from manufacturers in China? I've looked at it, but the problem is I never have enough of a minimum quantity order. And the other problem is, is that unless you know a specific manufacture. I tell you some stories from Philip Preston, good friend Philip Preston from polycience, it tries to import Chinese gear all the time, and he's had some things that he's had really good luck
+
+[43:23] with, and some things that he's had really bad luck with. If you if you go over there and have someone build something too spec, then they will build it to your
+
+[43:31] spec, and it will probably be good. I mean, a lot of really amazing stuff is built. For instance, modernist cuisine, Jerry is looking at is printed in China, because the printers over there were so good. They were the only printers that Mirbold and Chris Young could get that would print the cloud that they want. Yeah. So, and I'm sure there's 1000000s of blog posts out there on how awesome the printing is on
+
+[43:52] Mirville's book and it is. Uh, and, you know, Chris and I was Chris. Anyway. But we're talking about before that, since Nastasia interrupted me by doing the watch point. Chinese? Chinese. Yes. So, but the problem is, if you buy something over there that was built to somebody else's spec, it might not be your spec. So I know he tried a couple of Chinese model import vacuum
+
+[44:12] machines, and the problem was, is that they looked, I mean, they weren't as robo as the ones that we get because that wasn't part of the QC process. But also, if you vacuumed a lot of liquids in them. It fried some piece of componentry in there. It caused smoke and almost a fire, right? So unless you know something works. Like, for instance, like, if you go online, look on blogs for whatever people are doing, and people will have tried X, Y, and
+
+[44:35] Z, cheap Chinese stuff. So for instance, everyone I know who buys the miniature mills and lathes, buys the
+
+[44:41] Sieg ones that come in and they're all made by one or 2 manufacturers in China, and they work with some known problems, but everyone knows what those problems are, and they fix them. Ditto with laser cutters. Ditto with, you know, certain, like, plasma cutting tools, things like that. So it's just look online and don't be the 1st person in the U.S. to try it out. Anyway, so that's my, that's my... Yeah right. If anyone if anyone wants to send me some crap for free. happy to test it, right? Right? Sure. We have time. Yeah, right. we're made of time. Anyway, this has been this week's cooking issues. Come back next week. Thank you.
+
+[45:20] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com. as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[45:37] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[45:52] In 2010, Escapemaker.com, won an Emmy award for their agratourism website. So this year they thought, why not bring every tourism and green getaway ideas right to you? Come to the Green Getaways local Food and Travel Expo on April 30th at one Hanson Place, home of the Brooklyn Flea and former Williamsburg Savings Bank. Presented by Amtrak, ZipCar, and I love New York, the carbon free event will be a day filled with food, prizes, workshops, and kids activities. Over 50 getaway destinations from counties to local farms and bed and breakfasts within a day's drive or train ride of New York City will be exhibiting on the main floor and in
+
+[46:28] the huge bank vault downstairs. See what's hot in sustainable travel and receive special show only discounts. Grow NYC will be doing workshops on the green market, and Appalachian Mountain Club will offer workshops on adventure bicycling and hiking via
+
+[46:41] MASH transit. Escapemaker.com will be giving away over 50 getaway prizes ranging from zip line adventure passes to an overnight stay at Mohawk Mountain House. Travel greener. Eat local. Come to the expo on April 30th. Get your tickets now at www.escapemaker.com.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You may have noticed that one Whole Foods market store is not like the other. We're proud that each of our stores has its own quirks, a direct connection to the surrounding
+
+[0:11] community and buys and sells their own products, whether it's artisanal chocolate's exclusive bowery, small batch pickles
+
+[0:18] and Chelsea, or a featured craft beer on tap at West 97, you'll find that each store is a little bit different than the next. With 6 Manhattan locations, Whole Foods Market offers a taste of every neighborhood.
+
+[0:29] Come see us in Tribeca, Bowery, Union Square, Chelsea, Columbus Circle, or the Upper West Side,
+
+[0:36] opens 7 days a week from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. For more information, visit www.wolefoodsmarket.com.
+
+[0:50] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network, from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, here today with a
+
+[1:06] Nastasia to Hammer Lopez. We might be joined later by Brooks Headley, pastry chef at Del Posta, one of our favorite restaurants. Calling all of your questions to... 497. What? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Because for some reason, it is impossible for me to commit this number to memory, no matter how many times I said it, and I usually have a little slip of paper in front of
+
+[1:29] me that tells me what the number is, and today I don't have it. So Nastasia is going to have to, to say it. Do you have any blocks like that, Nastasia, things you just can't remember for one reason or another? No. Nothing? Nothing? Nothing. Nothing. All right. So, uh, this is, uh, I guess this is our Cinco de Mayo edition, even though it's uh, it's not. What day is it? 3rd today? Third, yeah. Anyway. But today, Nastasia and I are going to be at the Lucky Rice Festival. I think you can still get tickets, right? Although they're expensive. What do they buy? Oh, it's 50 bucks? $50 for nine? So you can come by and we're going to make some, uh, we're taking strawberries, uh, blending them actually, uh, our intern cliff is doing it right now back at the
+
+[2:10] lab so called in the back of the milk bar commissary. We're going to blend strawberries and tequila. I think we have a reposado, right? Yeah. And we're blending that. together, putting it through a centerfuge with some enzymes. We get crystal clear, strawberry, tequila. We're just gonna squeeze some lime into it. and stir it with some ice and I haven't figured out what the garnish is. Have figured out the garnish on that one yet? No, not that one. No? No? But it's called mummy juice. And the reason it's called mummy juice is because strawberries are guon in Mexican guon. Strawberries are grown in Mexico in Guanhuato, and that's also where they have the mummy. So because it's strawberries and Mexican. It's mummies. So we're doing mummy juice today, and we're also going to take some Bombay sapphire gin, blend it with bananas, spin it for another version of our gin Justino, drink we like very much,
+
+[3:01] gin Justino. Justino means blending with bananas and spinning in a centerfiege with enzymes. Don't ask why. And that one we're going to serve probably with ginger, right? Yeah. But they only gave us 12 bottles of each. So Nastasia and I are gonna pour tall, kick fast, and then join the party as as party people instead of as dorks behind the counter, true or false true, right? Okay. So that order of business is out. We have a question in from Scott
+
+[3:32] Hansma. Hansma has a some comments on what he thinks the name of our new company should be. And he says he likes the idea that if Escuffier wrote today, he would have an addition to the roast station and the fish station, a kind of rotavap centrifuge, cool stuff station, so that we should call the equipment company, something like future station, or Brigad,
+
+[3:53] Brigad, Technologique, if you wanted to be fancy and French. Well, actually I kind of like some of these suggestions. I like a kitchen brigade sounds pretty sounds pretty badass. I think. Kitchen Brigade. Sounds pretty badass. Of course, if Escoffier was writing today, he would write in English, boom! Boom! But that's just me. So the... But, and I like these, and I think we might actually maybe use one of those things for a line of kitchen equipment, but I think pending the approval of our partners in this
+
+[4:22] style. I'm thinking that we're going to go with, ready? Booker and Dax. These are the names of my 2 kids, right? So Booker sounds like, you know, kind of like an old dude, even though he's only 10, 9, rather. He sounds like an old dude who's kind of smart and knows what's up. Thats also true. And Dax is the kind of guy that's like, you know, you don't want to mess with him. Like this equipment's not going to break. Who said so, Dax, Dax said, so, Dax said. Anyway, so I think Booker and Dax, which, you know, name of my 2 kids together sounds like an old school company. What do you think, Sos? Yeah, no, I said they liked it. You like it, right? Yeah, Booker Index. But I like this, I like Kitchen Brigade as a line of tools or Brigade Kitchen Brigade. Yeah. You know who would come up with that? Booker and Dax. Right? Anyway. So I'll run that we'll run that past and we might have an announcement on that within the week, maybe, right? are the lawyers almost done talking? Anyway, thank you, Scott, for those questions. Now. Richard Koovic called in, wrote in and said, he ordered the Koava disc for his arrow press after mentioning it in his previous email. We spoke about it on an earlier thing. It's basically a fine mesh filter that fits into the
+
+[5:30] AeroPress, which is the cheap kind of like piston-based coffee maker that I'm talking about, says that he likes it
+
+[5:37] of very much. So that's good. And then he mentioned, because we were talking about the thermal mix last week. So I brought a bronze thermal mix, which is a an old immersion circulator. He wants to know about the therma mix proper. The thermal mix proper. Um, he said he's been interested in the device. It looks like they're no longer distributed in the US, though there's a Canadian distributor who allegedly shipped to the US. So there's not much in the way of reviews. And he sees that most reviews that are written are not by the type of people who would heat silicon carbide bricks in the microwave for
+
+[6:05] searing. would be us. Yes. Have we ever had the opportunity to put a thermal mix through its paces? And, you know, it's yes, I have. We don't have one anymore because it got stolen. So what the thermal mix is for those of you that don't know, it is a blender with
+
+[6:20] like a little, almost like a food processor blade. Um, but the bowl is also a scale, which is useful, um, it's useful. not a very accurate scale, but it's pretty useful. And also a heating device. So it, uh, it can heat while it blends, uh, which is useful for certain things like uh, in hydrocolloids. Like if you're going to do gelan, you can heat and stir at the same time, agitate and keep it
+
+[6:43] hot so you don't have to worry about it, you know, geling up on you as it cools down. So yes, it's useful for that. It's useful for making certain kinds of hot foams. It makes an awesome kind of cheese sauce that because it keeps stirring it when it doesn't burn while it's cooking. So it's great. It's good to weigh things out. It's not the world's greatest blender, but it is really cool, but it's
+
+[7:01] very, very, very expensive. It costs in the U.S. roughly what 2 Vitapreps would cost. Okay? Um, I don't think it's worth 2 Vitapreps. I would rather have 2 like unless you're at home, I would rather have 2 Vita Preps in my kitchen than one
+
+[7:17] thermal mix. Now, all of the European chefs. They love the thermomix because in Europe, the thermomix is, um, it's it's around. It's like consumers use it like they would use a kitchenator or anything else. I think it probably is a little bit cheaper in Europe where, conversely, vitapreps are very expensive, which are the high power blenders that we all use are very expensive over there.
+
+[7:37] So there's very few Vitapreps in Europe, and very many thermal mixes. the exact opposite of here. Uh, Vitaprep kicks the crap out of the thermal mix as a blender, but there is other, there are other things that uh, the thermomex can do. Actually, Brooks just showed up. So he's gonna, I'm gonna pass. Do you guys have any thermal, you know, the thermal mixes? You ever play around with them? No, actually, we don't have one. I'm terrified of them. Really? That's funny. But they, you know, they, like, a lot of the stuff that they serve at the thermal mix that they sell with it is like hoo-ha. nonsense. Like you don't need the steaming basket because you can just steam with it. I don't know anyone, like, even if you're a pro. I mean, are you really going to, like, time everything right so that the stuff that's stirring in the underneath is done at the exact same time that your broccoli is
+
+[8:19] steamed right? I mean, it doesn't make so much sense to me. But if you have $700 in your pocket and it's burning a hole in your pocket, uh, and you don't already own a
+
+[8:28] vider prep or a good blender and you're looking for something, it's pretty interesting that a lot of people in Europe like a lot, thermal mix,
+
+[8:33] it tastes good, right? I mean, it's okay. No, no, I'm completely fascinated by them. But again, I would rather take that 700 bucks and buy 2 Vita Preps with it. Um, because you can't ever have enough Vitapreps. Okay. So, uh, any, uh, any, any, so by the way, for those of you that don't know Brooks, Brooks
+
+[8:55] is uh, the, well, the pastry chef, but is there like a title that goes above pastry chef at Del
+
+[9:00] Posto? No, no, just, I mean, technically, it's executive pastry. Exactly. I was looking for. I'm not very much of an executive, so... Paster chef is fine. guy that makes desserts. Yeah, right. Dessert dude at Del Posto. Del Posto, one of our favorite restaurants in Manhattan. It's the only um, Italian restaurant that has 4 stars, true. True? Yeah. The only Italian restaurant that has 4 stars. Our good friend Mark Ladner is the chef there. And it's a great meal. I think one of the interesting things about Brooks's work, I'm going to put them on the spot that I didn't say I was going to do this, is that even though, um, you know, a lot of the dishes, um, have traditional bases to them at Del Posto, even though they're not necessarily 100%
+
+[9:48] traditional. I think that it's some of the, like, most interesting, freshest desserts out there that Brooks is putting out. think, what do you think, Nastasia? Yeah, I mean, like not that they're, the flavors aren't wacky. It's not about being wacky, but I think just like very, literally fresh presentations, interesting using flavors that aren't necessarily crazy, but I think
+
+[10:09] just, you know, pretty interesting stuff. But for some reason, the guys that don't post it, don't like being thought of as innovative comments. Wow, yeah. No, it's just it's like we're, I don't know. I just, I consider myself like, like a, like a grandma. Wow. And, like, in terms of like the style of the food or the way that I cook it or whatever, like, um, and
+
+[10:36] I definitely think of it as cooking. Like, a lot of pastry chefs think of their, like, bakers or whatever, like,
+
+[10:42] I'm, I'm a cook, so. Right. But, yeah, innovative. I don't really invent anything, so I don't know. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, but that's the thing. I think, um, here's the thing. People who get labeled as innovative who, right, are pushing certain boundaries of techniques or ingredients, to me, it's enough to be innovative if I haven't tasted something like that
+
+[11:07] before, or it's surprising. surprising and yet surprising and yet familiar in terms of it's not outside of my bounds of comfort, but yet I'm still surprised. Like these are the kinds of things that I enjoy tasting, um, kind of the most. Like, in particular, like it's dead simple, but your celery sorbet is a butt kicker. It's still on the menu. Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, I'm not going to take it off anytime soon, so. Delicious product, right? don't think I've had it. You haven't had it? You haven't had it? Crazy. And, you know, the dish you did for that. Why don't you talk about the dish you did for the, uh, for the museum uh, event, the uh, the Hebrew food in Italy? Uh, that was the artichoke. Yes. Car trophy. Um, Well, it's funny. I actually, yeah, I had a chef maybe like 10 years ago that wanted me to do an artichoke
+
+[11:57] dessert, and I did, and it was terrible. So I chose to do it again as like a challenge to myself, like making an artichoke into some sort of sweet thing, you know,
+
+[12:08] so I mean, I think it came out pretty good, so. Why was the last one terrible? Oh, it was, I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. So I don't remember what I think I like chopped it up and caramelized it and like hammered it and put it on some ice
+
+[12:23] cream. It was pretty gross. Really? Yeah. But that was, you know, I've evolved since then. Yeah, a little bit. I hope. I hope. A little bit. All right. So listen, call in your question. What's the, what are the... Okay, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. Colin, any questions you have for Brooks or for us, and I can either talk more, we can go to our 1st break. What do you think? Jack, what do you think? Break or talk? Break or talk, break or talk? Great. Talk. Talk. All right. So, Ben, I'm going to try to pronounce his name. Shoanier, Shoanier. You like that? Yeah. Schwanier. Ben Choanier, um, says, have I ever tried one of the wonderful uh, French fry SoCal uh, burritos. It's basically like a breakfast burrito with a bunch of french fries jammed into it. I have not. He got one of his local Mexican spot. This is, you know, continuing our Cinco de Mayo theme. I got one of his local Mexican spot and it took him back. But we are burrito. We like burritos. I do. Nastasia doesn't because she hates anything she had growing up. All right? I swear to God. She doesn't like, like, limes because they grew in her backyard. She doesn't like, uh, uh, freaking. What is it you don't like? Anything that you had as a child. She's like, I ate a peanut when I was a kid, so I don't like him anymore. Right? It's crazy. So she doesn't like burritos because she grew up in LA and she ate them as a child. Most people on earth likes stuff that they ate as a child. She's the exact opposite. She's like, my mom's short bread tasted like hardtack. Not that she's ever had heart attack, right? I made her hardtack, so she now has a reference to it, but beaten biscuits are basically hardtack. Anyway. So, sorry, for that little tirade. So I've not tried the French fry, but that would be delicious, but I am a fan of speaking of frying burritos of the
+
+[14:04] chimichanga. Do you enjoy the chimichanga? Oh, fried burrito? amazing. Yeah, right? Right? So I don't know if we've ever discussed this on the show, but we had, we did a pilot for, like, what's, did we ever talk about this? Yeah, for what stoners, like, what stoners would do? Any stoners came in, and it's not actually the 1st time I've heard this idea, if you can believe that,
+
+[14:22] of, for like, tape your burrito together, you know, tape it, like some sort of tape, so your burrito won't come apart. This is a pilot that they never picked up the show. But I think the greatest invention, maybe of my whole life, was something we did for this, it's called the Semichanga. Have we talked about this on the air before? The semi-changa? Anyway, so what this, okay, why don't you just eat the chimichanga walking around? The answer is because the top, when you eat it, will shatter, and then the parts will fall all over the place, right? When you eat a burrito, the problem is the burrito like kind of slimes out and then gets crappy all over your hands. The semi Changa, huh? is where you make a burrito and you fry only like the bottom 3rd half of
+
+[14:58] it to make it crispy like a chimichanga. You wrap that in the paper and now the top is still soft like a burrito, right? And then you can eat the top like an ice cream cone because it's a burrito. And then when you get down to the bottom where it's crunchy, it's not so tall, so it's not going to explode and go flying all over your
+
+[15:13] shirt, the semi-changa, you heard it here first. All right, now we will go to the break. We'll come back with questions for Brooks at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. cooking issues.
+
+[16:02] You'll only come by tonight. I mean, hug retire. Nothing you do, I've seen it here before. Watching the wedding Wish she's sitting with you But her eyes are on the door. So many a pain to see. What you think, you get it for free? The woman's wild, she can't tap by the public, I you want. Money is a matter. This is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Take a swig of Beer Sessions radio every Tuesday at 5 PM with Jimmy Carboni, the owner of Jimmy's number 43, and Ray Dieter, owner of DBA.
+
+[16:53] Beer loving raconteurs offer toasts, share craft beer news, and swap anecdotes about their lives on the front lines of the craft beer movement.
+
+[17:01] Again, Beer Sessions radio every Tuesday at 5 p.m. on the Heritage Radio Network. Welcome back to Cooking Issues with Nastasia and Brooks Headley of Del Posto, calling
+
+[17:17] your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. But I have a question in from, oh, I don't have any questions. Can you can you look up who came from, unfortunately? No, that's that's a chef. So the question, oh, Nick Philip. Hi, Dave and Nastasia, I currently go to Schoolcraft College, culinary school, and they are known here in Michigan for having quite a few master chefs. I'm assuming he's meeting certified MasterChefs. This title really mean much to most chefs or any of the other titles like certified executive chef, et cetera. And I would eventually like to work in New York restaurants, but from what I hear, it's hard to get into some of the restaurants without contacts. Do you have any tips? Thanks, Nick. Well, the school where you are, I believe, has Brian Poulsen, who's very well regarded charcuterie, chef, who also, I believe, happens to be a certified MasterChef.
+
+[18:04] There aren't that many certified MasterChefs. There's only, I think, like 60 or 70 certified MasterChefs, and you have to go through a preposterous battery of tests to do it. And it was famously chronicled in that Roman book sold a chef, right? Wasn't that about certified MasterChefs? And I think, and, you know, Brooks will come in at any mini here, I think it's an amazing accomplishment to be able to pass all those tests, but I don't think
+
+[18:29] it necessarily, I mean, in New York, It's more like, is your restaurant good? Where have you worked, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's all about, like, was your last dish good? Right, right. I mean, in other words, you, well, we have a caller, so we'll discuss this more after, after
+
+[18:49] we take to call it, collar, you're on the air. Hi, um, I was just curious, do you have any tips for like avoiding cracks and cheesecakes? Oh, Brooks, when you bake them. Brooks, do you have any tips for avoiding cracks in cheesecake? Ah, that's a tough one. It depends on a lot of things, like, like, the temperature and obviously the, uh, whether you're cooking in a water bath or there's so many different, like, variations, uh, in terms of, like, the cracks, though, um,
+
+[19:18] like, in, like, a classic, like, New York cheesecake or whatever. Yeah. It's, uh, no, it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's really, it's really, it's a really, I have, I have no specific, like, tips to, like, like, tell you, like, this is absolutely
+
+[19:34] going to work because there's so many variations or variables. Well, the cracks happening because the top, like, sets and dries out too soon and then splits as it cools or when
+
+[19:43] it's, like, what's causing the cracks? not a big cheesecake. Do you cook it in a water bath, by the way? I have not cooked in a water bath. When I make my cheesecakes, What always happens, I get a big crack and then I just cover it with cherries or something.
+
+[19:57] Yeah, actually, that's what I do too. That makes sense, though, that the heat probably cooks it too fast and it doesn't know what to do, but just split. Or if it dries out a little bit on top from the oven. there's a moisture in there, I would assume it would get a little bit tougher, and then it might, it might, uh, split instead of giving. I'm not sure. Right, like, no, I mean, in like a, in like a still oven at home, like, you don't have any. I mean, you have one setting basically on, you know? Like, I mean, if you have like a, like, obviously we have super fancy, like, combi ovens and stuff, but you can adjust everything, you know? So like, technically I could probably get a cheesecake that doesn't crack, but... Oh, you mean like a convection oven? Or, yeah, I mean, like at the restaurant, we have, like, super fancy ovens that do all sorts of things, but... But the funny thing is, is like, if I was going to bake a cheesecake, I would just bake it in a still oven the same way that you would bake it at home. Yeah. And do it the 4 star way and just put some cherries on top. Okay. All right, buddy, if I think of anything, I might see McGee later this
+
+[20:59] week and he thinks about those kinds of things a lot. So if I if I come up with anything, then I'll I'll mention it next week. Yeah, if anybody should know, be him. Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, thanks for the call. try and figure out some more stuff for you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. So back to this certified MasterChef thing, right? I mean, I definitely have respect that someone can accomplish it, but it's not necessarily gonna get them. I mean, a certified MasterChef is not like looking for a line job, right, on at a restaurant. Uh, no. That they're probably mainly working for larger institutions or teaching or... Yeah, I think mostly like when I hear about people with
+
+[21:38] that, a title like that, they're either like, yeah, they're working for a school or they're, or they're like the corporate chef for like a big company or something, you know,
+
+[21:46] so. Right. But it is a great achievement. So I'm not. No, no, of course. And as to, I would eventually like to work in New York restaurants, but from what I
+
+[21:54] hear, it's hard to get into some of the restaurants without contacts. Do you have any tips? It definitely helps to have in the high-end restaurants. It definitely helps to have some human being that will vouch for you and say that you're a good worker. And I'm going to say something and then Brooks will tell me whether I'm right or wrong. But it's very compelling argument to write a bunch of times
+
+[22:13] saying, I'm willing to come work for free to do whatever to be in your kitchen. And then, and I will work like a dog and expect nothing. And I will do it for free is a fairly compelling argument. No, no, it totally works. Especially like if you're relentless. Like, one letter like that, maybe you look at it like, ah, whatever. But if you get like 10 letters from the same person, like, eventually they stop being a crazy person. I mean, maybe up until a certain point they're a crazy person, but then you're like, well, maybe they're just really into it.
+
+[22:42] And like, definitely, if you're relentless with it, and it can definitely get your foot in the door, so. Right, but you have to be willing to do whatever, work like a dog, right? Or just, or just basically show up and expect anything, you know, like, I mean, like, when we have trails or stodges come in, like, sometimes the nature of the day or whatever, they're just rolling chocolate truffles for like 4 hours, you know, so, and that's usually like a good gold standard or a litmus test, whatever,
+
+[23:17] for like, if someone comes in and like rolls truffles really fast. And it's like, all right, what can I do next? Then you're like, oh, okay. Maybe this maybe this is a good person or whatever. And then sometimes people will just roll the truffles really slow and they'll be like, oh, is that
+
+[23:32] your is that your 3rd tray? Like, no, it's my 1st and they're like really, like, then, you know, like, wow, what's going on here? Yeah. Yeah. But so what if they're one of those unfortunate people like me with hot hands and they're smearing all the? Um, well, we then we will move you into the walk-in freezer. It's a known thing for pastry people. Yeah, no, hot hands. It's a rough one, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hot hands. Not much of a chocolate guy. Never have been. hands. It's not just looking at me like I'm a freak. This is not I'm not making this stuff up, Nastasia. So anyway, Nick, I hope that that helps you out and start making
+
+[24:07] the list of places you want to work at and then just start piling emails on, but if you go to a culinary school, one of the main things of a culinary school is that there are people there who know
+
+[24:16] chefs and I guarantee you there's someone there who knows someone who can get you vouched into a
+
+[24:22] place, so you might not have to write a 1000 letters, but I would be prepared to do it if you have a particular place that you want to work.
+
+[24:28] There are some places because their kitchens aren't very big, where they actually, it can be hard to get a stage even working for free, but usually if you pester them long enough, like Brooke says, you can make it in because, you know,
+
+[24:42] they, uh, kitchen people seem to enjoy persistence. Yeah, no, of course. Like, it shows that you're, like, committed to the cause, which is exactly the kind of person that you want working for you in a kitchen
+
+[24:55] as someone completely entirely committed,
+
+[24:59] like, like a soldier without any question, you know? So. What percentage of the people who come in as a stod you think burn out? Um, I mean, like people that start as a stage or? Or in other words, like, yeah, people that really want to, you know, go the, you know, high-end
+
+[25:17] perfectionist, fine dining, restaurant route, come in, do a stash, and then they're like, wow, this really wasn't what I thought I wanted. It wasn't what I thought. Oh, you mean like right off the bat? Yeah, a lot. A lot of people, yeah. Like, a lot of people would be like, I had no idea this is what it's going to be like, or, or, I mean, usually, like, I find for, like, for, for a lot of my staff, it comes at the end of the night, where, you know, they think of, like, working in, like, a fancy fine dining restaurant is, like, this very glamorous thing, but at the end of the night, like, you know, you're on your hands and knees, like, scrubbing out the low boy, like, and, and, especially for dessert people, like, every single other person in the entire
+
+[25:58] restaurant is gone. So you're there basically by yourself scrubbing out the low boy and it might be like 2 in the morning. And that's, I find that that's like a crack, like a cracking point for people. Like, because they're like looking around and like they're just like, what is going on? They're like, this is bull crap. This is bull crap. I didn't, yeah, I thought I'd be making like beautiful cakes. Yeah. I went to college. What? Like, you get that a lot too, right? Someone who's like, like, I worked, like, especially people who have career changers, right? They're like, they don't feel like, do you ever have that happen? You have someone who's a career changer, comes in, doesn't feel like they should have to do all that? Um, every once in a while. I mean, I would say more in the past, like, in recent times, like, I think people seem to, like, kind of get, like, working in, I
+
+[26:40] find out a restaurant is going to be pretty tough, so. I mean, but the idea is, though, is it, I mean, everything you do down to cleaning
+
+[26:46] the, the, the low boy out is actually a, a quality thing in the end, right? It's like keeping the quality high. there's no, no, absolutely, yeah. I mean, so it's important. That's why like... Yeah, it's like cleaning out the low boy at the end of the night is probably more important than being able to like roll fondant to a certain thickness to make a wedding cake, you
+
+[27:06] know, so. Right. So someone who's going to make it understands that there basically is nothing that's beneath them, right? I mean, there's No, nothing, nothing, nothing at all. Yeah. Yeah. See, if there's, if, if something's on the floor, grab them up and clean it up, you know. Right. So, uh, you know, I know Dave Chang complains a lot about um, the people coming out of cooking school nowadays saying that they're not willing to do all that stuff anymore, but you think that
+
+[27:28] that's that's passing. I mean, it really, it depends. I mean, it depends on the person. Um, it's uh, it's almost like a case-by-case thing. Like, sometimes, sometimes you, you, you get people that are, like, just complete
+
+[27:44] all-stars and, like, you're like, wow, where'd you come from? You came from space or something. And then every once in a while you get someone who's like really doesn't get it at all. But I would say for the most part, it's kind of like in the middle there. And another thing that people don't think about is, you know, you're going to a place, you're working for free, right? Which is, it's kind of crazy. Not that many, you know, with industries work that way, where you're
+
+[28:08] working like a dog, getting yelled at, and doing it for free and long hours and many days a week, right? So, okay. Um, but on the other hand, the flip side is that, um, the restaurant's also putting an investment in you as well because you might mess up product, you take time away from the cooks who have to explain
+
+[28:27] things. Is there, you see, that side of it too? Like, do you feel that you're actually giving them something? Yeah, I mean, like when, like, in the past, like, I, I, I mean, before I worked at Del Posto, I
+
+[28:41] did that all the time. Like I would, I would work for weeks for free places or if I found a place that I, that I really wanted to be, I would do whatever I could to like just hang out there for work. I mean, yeah, I mean, if I could, like, log all
+
+[28:57] the, like, free hours that I've worked in, like, the past 13 years or whatever, like, I could probably buy a house or something. In New York. Wow, that's rough. Any tips on how to get the most out of a stage? Um, honestly, it's just, uh, like, you can totally tell, after about an hour, if someone's, like,
+
+[29:20] gonna be an all-star, and, like, they can, you just know, like, just the
+
+[29:25] way, I usually just watch their hands. I think it's like a, I think I heard, um, like, Payard say that one time, like, like, just watch people's hands, like, if they, if they're constantly moving and constantly working, like, um, you know that they're going to
+
+[29:40] be like a good, a good person to have on the team. So. Nice. All right. So should we take another commercial break or push this? Take a commercial break? All right, call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[30:12] In time for the world, love last episode. There's nowhere to go. Oh, no. You made your choice. Now it's up to me. To follow our gracefully. Though you hold the key, but baby. Whenever you call me, I'll be there whenever you want it. I'll be there. Whenever you need me. I'll be there. I'll be around. Knew just what to say. That's a new one, huh? I like that, Jack. Nice, Jack. Welcome back to cooking issues. You have another couple of minutes to call your questions in for us for Brooks at 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Go for me. I just take care of issues. Well, what is it? Anastasia answered a question yet on the show? I don't know. We tried it. She sits there texting too much, so it's not. See, that's the thing. Like, here's the problem. Like, I'm like, I'm all nice, sweet, sugar and candy. Well, that's also true, but until someone tries to call me out, like, in a public situation, and then I'm just like, oh, really? The gloves are off. I hadn't realized that. All right. That's kind of where I'm at with Nastasia too. Wow. Oh. Anyway, we would love a, we've had a couple of nostalgia questions, right? like, are you single? What's your sign kind of thing? Wait, your sign has changed, right? Aren't you on the, didn't we talk about this? Yeah, same sign now. Oh, jeez. Let's not go by that. Oh my god. All right. So if you have a legitimate question that's not asking Nastasia for a
+
+[32:15] date or about, I mean, you can ask her why she hates everything that she ate growing up or why she has such a conflicted relationship with, you know, the foods of Los
+
+[32:24] Angeles. say her mother. You said that. Not me. Not me. Anyway, you're welcome to call him for a question for her. So Naveen Sinha wrote in and he's one of the TAs, he might be the lead TAZ. don't know. of the Harvard class that Faran did last year, Fran Adria. And I'm going to assist McGee actually on the 1st lecture of the New Year coming up in September, which should be fun. I don't know what I'm going to do there, but something maybe, you know, blow, blow, blow everyone up. Everyone thinks I'm going to go to places and blow everyone up. I've never blown up another person. You know what I mean? I've never blown up someone other than myself. Anyway, so Naveen writes in, says, hi, Dave, I'm fascinated by chocolate, especially transformation from the bitter seeds, the cacao tree,
+
+[33:12] to a tasty chocolate bar that is a very interesting transformation. Are there any other foods that undergo a similar set of steps, fermentation, roasting, grinding? Also, do you know of any other tropical fruit seeds? It could become delicious through such a process. Thanks, Naveen. That's an interesting question. I mean, obviously coffee, right? Coffee goes through, you know, a similar set of procedures, quite literally, fermentation, drying, roasting, grinding, brewing. Um, and uh, vanilla goes through picking uh, fermentation, right? It's dipped in, usually in boiling water, uh, and then wilted and then fermented. So it's similar, and then I guess it can be ground to form a paste. But vanilla doesn't taste like vanilla until it goes through. It's, uh, it's pastes, um, to be fermented. In fact, the vanilla that's uncured is called red vanilla. You can get it. It's interesting, but it's not, it doesn't taste like vanilla. I don't know offhand, although I'm going to do some research because we're going to do a tropical food tasting in July. So we could do some tests, but I don't know of any other tropical fruit seeds other than those that go through these kinds of
+
+[34:22] processes. Any, have you ever heard of anything that go, what else goes through that kind of, no, I mean, like, that, tea, tea leaves, right? Tea leaves go through a fermentation process like that. I mean, there's olives, but that's not fully like the same kind of process, but still have to be
+
+[34:38] like processed to make them edible. Right. I mean, yeah, I mean, is that the thing is, is it just that, yeah, is it things that need to be processed to make edible? There are a lot of things like that, right? But I'd have to think more about it. It's an interesting question. I like the whole, like, I'm fascinated by how we figured out that, for instance, Aki fruit will kill you if you eat it unless the pods open up all the way and the fruit's right. Some dude must AccuFruit is, you know, the like kind of the national food in Jamaica. Aki, how would you say it? Is that the A-Q-C-A? A-A-C-K-E-E. Aki and Sawfish is like the classic, but you can only buy Kandaki here in New York as far as I know. I've never seen Fresh Aki. And um, But if you eat it, uh, and it hasn't opened up, it's poisonous. But if you and you shouldn't eat it all, apparently, if you're pregnant. Uh, but uh, acting saltfish is one of the Jamaican national dishes. So some dude ate like probably a whole tree's worth of ripe Aki, right? And was like, this dove is good. You know what I mean? And then like his buddy picked it too early and died. And it was like, oh, yeah, you know, don't do that. So anyway, I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, Naveen. So we will look more into different things like this. And people call and write in with your various, you know, fermentation and deadly poison things. All right. So, uh, I think being posted this week on eater is gonna be our our burger extravaganza. Is that true, Nastasia? Yeah. Today. Today? So, um, So basically, eaters doing like a whole, they have some sort of like burger festival week, some
+
+[36:14] crap. I don't know. Not crap. not crap. You know what I mean? Some burger festival, everything's crap. I say crap a lot. Anyway. And so they wanted some sort of fantabulous, fancy burger, but it turns out that the burgers that I typically like to make aren't that fancy. My favorite, one of my favorite burgers is patty melt. I think patty melt is delicious burger. Patty melt, for those of you not hip to patty melts, patty melt is rye bread, uh... It's gotta be rye bread, right? Yeah, rye bread. It's not rye bread, it's like a something else melt, right? It's like a grilled cheese with a burger slid inside. Right. I mean, it might be delicious, but it's not a patty melt, right? Right? Caramelized onions, Swiss cheese, and the whole thing, you cook the burger, and then you put it in and you cook it like a grilled cheese sandwich with the
+
+[36:54] onions so the bread gets toasted with, you know, mashed with butter. Fantastic. I like mine with ketchup, delicious. So I did a slightly high-tech version of a patty melt where it was all pretty much traditional, except I cooked the burger low temperature in a
+
+[37:09] ziploc bag in butter and made the burger thicker than it normally was. And I grilled it like a grilled cheese sandwich with the onions and then separated it and put the burger in
+
+[37:18] between so the burger didn't actually get smashed, but the bread did. I thought it was good. I thought it was delicious. But Eater came back and they're like, listen, we wanted something wacky. We went to you not for something that doesn't taste good. We want something that's wacky. So then they had to go reshoot, something that was wackier. Is this true or false? True. Yeah. So I was like, all right, well, I wanted to keep some of the patty milk stuff. So I was like, okay, we're still going to use the rye bread. We're still going to do grilled cheese. But I'm going to add meat glued bacon sheets, right? So we, you know, we made the sheets out of bacon, laminate with meat glue, vacuum it down. And then we cut everything into rings so that it all looked perfect because we figured that was fancier and
+
+[37:57] wackier. So the rye bread was cut into a ring. We then took Conte, which is like Gruyere, and cut it into a ring, and then the bacon sheets cut into a
+
+[38:06] ring, and then so that was the basis of the grilled cheese sandwich. We didn't put the caramelized onions on at this time. So it was bacon Gruyere, all made like a grilled cheese sandwich. The burger, we also took pickle sheets and turned them like you would Japanese style with like a new Suba. Grace did, our intern Grace did that. And they cut that into a ring so that you had a ring shaped pickle that was the size of the burger, which was nice.
+
+[38:25] And then for the burger to make it all fantabulously fancy dancy. We reduced veal stock down till it was really thick and
+
+[38:33] beefy, and the gelatin was really, you know, very strong, added ketchup to it, added calcium,
+
+[38:38] lactate, glucinate, right? Set it into a sheet, cut the sheets into rings, and then threw those into
+
+[38:45] alginate. So that formed a layer around the gelatin. So now we have like a little hockey puck of beef, ketchup gelatin with a layer of algernate around. We chose algenet because it's a little bit tough. It's going to used to withstand this kind of rough handling and it's also heatproof. So then we built a burger around that, uh, around that sheet of, uh, of, uh, that like
+
+[39:07] gelet, and then low temp, fried it to set it, low temp, cooked that in butter, and then roasted it over charcoal, to get a nice charcoal
+
+[39:14] outside, put that in between. And when you cut the burger, it's like a soup dumpling. It explodes ketchup and veal stock all over the plate. And we did one without, when you do it with a bun, it like sprays out a little bit, kind of like when you take a cherry tomato and you bite it and
+
+[39:28] like if you don't close your mouth when you do it, you spray your buddy, you know what I'm talking about? Anyway, kind of like that. But when we did it by itself, it was kind of like almost obscene. We, we just cut a burger and it was like, like shot up like a fountain, like the, like the, like the burger couldn't hold
+
+[39:43] it and I'll put it that way. Okay. So, uh, so that's the, I don't know what they're going to use from that. I don't know what they're gonna use from that. Yeah. Anyway. But it's actually going to be online today. Well, supposedly. Is there a photo of it exploding? There's a video, so there might be... I mean, I would actually prefer, like, I'm a firm believer, and by the way, it goes back
+
+[40:05] to when I was doing art for, you know, trying to do art for a living, and we're in cooking issues in an art show now. in an art show at Columbia. I just put a post up today on the blog, so you can go look at the post on the blog and see what we put into the art show, including something about our, you know,
+
+[40:19] someone we met in California, Roy Fong, who owns the imperial tea court. does a lot of really interesting stuff with tea, including he's got, he's growing his own tea and a tea farm in California, which I think is really cool and unprecedented.
+
+[40:29] Anyway. So, uh, uh, where are this going? Yeah, supposedly there's going to be a video. But when I was doing art, sometimes a good still photo is better than a video. Like if you just had like a sick still photo of the burger with the stuff shooting out of the top of it and you caught
+
+[40:43] it like just as it was like in midair, like somehow that's more badass than the video of it happening. Because it's very hard. I mean, these guys are good, so I'm sure it's good. But like, for me, it was very hard to get videos that were as compelling as a good still shot.
+
+[40:57] Like, I always preferred the one good still shot. Like take the video and then choose the one awesome still from it and put that up.
+
+[41:04] I don't know. It's like, it seems to me, because then your mind fills in the rest of everything. You don't need you don't need the actual whole video a lot of times. This is my theory as when I was doing performance art anyway. So what else do we do last week, Nastasia? Martha last week? Yeah, why did you talk about that? Why don't you talk about it? Because apparently you don't, you know, you can't, you can't be bothered not to lean back in your chair and with the gangster leash. The Stach's got a serious gangster lean going on in the studio. Talk about it, dude. All right, so Martha Stewart. wanted a centrifuge. We bought her the damn centrifuge, and I fixed it, and then it was a nice one. I paid, I think like, I don't know, 300 bucks or something like that, which was her limit. on eBay. Yes, yes, she only wanted to pay $300 for this interview, which is like, you know, I've paid more for
+
+[41:50] dinner, and she, that's what she wanted. anyway, whatever. So we bring it to her studio and she wants to learn about it. And the one we bring, when we show up, sucker literally breaks. I was like, you know, this happens with stuff that you get off of eBay. Like, even though I fixed one problem, there's another problem in the machine, and it turned out that it's a $900, it's a $900 problem to fix. So I was like, oh, man, crap. So we ended up taking, well, Nastasia, described the situation. We were both... was not pleased. Wow, this, that's all I got. That's all Stach was going to say. She was not pleased. Wow. All right. Yeah. And so basically I gave her... The hardest part is that you're like singing and laughing to yourself and talking to
+
+[42:36] yourself. But what am I supposed to do? Sit there and look depressed because the machine is broken? Brooks. Am I supposed to look depressed? Tell me that. What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to? I don't have a hair shirt with me that I can put on? Puts a hair shirt? You know, it's with hair shirt. She says a woman who's not used to punishing herself. That's why she hasn't, you know, that's why she hasn't, you know, it's, you know, Catholic too. It's crazy. Anyway. So, yeah, you know, I didn't have something to beat myself with. I didn't bring like, you know, the, the, you know, the little small whip to like whip my back and apologize that the $300 centrifuge that we had spent hours
+
+[43:15] fixing broke again. Take the check away. She did not threaten. She did not. She said, I'm going to need to get my money back, Dave. Do you remember that? No, you made that up. I did not hear that. You were singing. Well, thank God. Anyway, so I gave her a different centrifuge, and so hopefully she's happy with it because she has it now, right? Yeah, we haven't heard anything. I haven't heard of it. So hopefully she's happy with it, but now I'm stuck. What was she going to do with it? What's her plans for it? They thought she was going to make baby food. Because she just had a baby. She did not have a baby. For adoption. First of all, like, I don't know how much is his privilege. So here's talking about, like Martha listens. Martha, if you're listening, I'm sorry. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[44:07] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[44:32] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. In the next few weeks, Heritage Foods USA will be offering an interesting variety of amazing products, ranging from top quality seafood to their famous pork cuts. At the end of May, the heritage team will go up to Maine to harvest fresh lobster with sustainable lobster meat. These delicious lobster are a perfect way to kick off the summer season. In the pork compartment, Heritage Foods USA will offer the maple cured smoked boneless heritage ham at an unbeatable price. His offer won't last long, so get them while you can. Place your order today at heritagefoodsusa.com or call 718-389-0985. That's 718-389-0985 to place your order with Andrea or Ashley. And don't forget to sign up for the email list and to check them on Facebook and Twitter to get in on their new products,
+
+[0:49] deals, and offers from Heritage Foods USA.
+
+[1:04] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not here today because she is in Brimfield shopping for Antiques. Nastasia, word to the wise. Brimfield was cool before eBay. No insult to the Springfield folks, right? No insult. We're also here in the studio with Chad Solomon and Christy Pope from the, I guess, newly renamed cuffs and buttons. It used to be singular, and now it's plural, it was always plural, and I've always said it wrong. No, it used to be singular. Now it's plural because we're plural people. All right, cool. So, Colin, all of your questions, cooking, and hopefully today, a lot of drink related questions too. 718-497, 2128, that's 718-497-2128 will be here for about the next 45 minutes. So, uh, uh, Chad and Chrissy are an interesting uh, group because they are one of the only like hardcore like world-class like bartender couples that I know. Is that true? Do you know any others? I would say the only other 2 are would be Anastasia, Miller, and Jared Brown. Oh yes, yes. All right. They live somewhere else. Yeah, they jumped their car. overseas. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't count. They don't count. That doesn't count. And also they're like, are they actually, were they like working bartender types? Are they are they just like intelligentsia of drinking? I think intelligentsia, right? At one time, um, before we knew them, both of them had bartended. In fact, Jared worked with Dale, worked as a waiter at the Rainbow Room during lunch service while Dale was there, but bartended at another establishment at that time. And by the way, for those of you not hip to like the recent history of cocktails, we're talking about Dale DeGroff, who, um, kind
+
+[2:41] of, was fair to say, started bringing back good cocktails in the
+
+[2:45] rainbow room in the, when was it, the... late 80s. So like the entire country and probably the world, a cultural wasteland of crappy
+
+[2:55] cocktails. Uh, Dale uh, um, teams up with uh, why is his name? His name popped out of my head. The guy who owned the Rainbow Room started it. Yeah, there you go. Like that? Boom, they're right there with it. basically says, you know, along with Dale, hey, why don't we have real drinks here? And then, and that's the start. And everything has kind of stemmed from that. I mean, it's hard to find. like a real bartender here or abroad, really, that doesn't trace some sort of route back to that moment where Dale was like, let's make some good
+
+[3:25] drinks again. I would say that Dale's important to us as well, simply because he's, Chad, I'll let you tell the story, but that's how we got our name. was through a story that Dale had told us on one of the original meetings that we had with him. He, he,
+
+[3:39] he, uh, recounted the story, uh, the etymology of the name cuffs and buttons, and how it, uh, was an old New Orleans cocktail created in 1873, um, and that bartender over time, he, he named the
+
+[3:53] drink cuffs and buttons at the time because of a competing drink called White Ties and Tails. And, um, in the by the 1880s, there was the International Cotton Exposition held in New Orleans. And with all the international visitors coming into
+
+[4:06] town. He's like, nobody's going to understand this white ties and tails cuffs and buttons saying, so they changed the name of Southern Comfort. Southern Comfort, then went on to become a much bigger brand. In the 20th century, Brown Foreman bought
+
+[4:15] it, and they really dropped, you know, the cups and buttons, and it was just kind of a historical footnote. We loved the name because of the kind of formality and it's a very kind of visual connotation that comes, you know, cuffs and
+
+[4:28] buttons and it worked really well when we were looking to, you know, name a cocktail catering company as we started out. Right. What is now sold to Southern comfort was one of the 1st things I ever got sick on. Oh yeah. surprising. Yeah. Well, actually, this might be interesting before we get into some hardcore questioning and tasting, actually, is did you guys
+
+[4:48] meet like after you were bartending? These guys have worked like all the, like a lot of the great bars here in New York and all over the country. So you have milk and honey, you Pegu, right? Where else? like everywhere. I can't even... Flat iron lounge. Yeah. Flat iron lounge and little branch. Yeah, but it's not. Oh yeah. like, oh, they they worked there for like a day and a half . Like everyone, like, these are like, they started these, they, like, on the opening teams on these places. So this is like not a, this is a no joke. Like, this is a real deal, homie situation. And did you guys meet while you were doing that or beforehand? It was actually kind of a fortuitous circumstances, but I was working at Milk and Honey. I started there in its 2nd year, which was in 2001. And it was, I got hired the Thursday before 9-11. So, yeah, 911 happened and obviously everything below 14th Street was just a stalemate for a period of
+
+[5:39] time. couldn't even get down there. Yeah, exactly. I lived in Chinatown. So it's like I used to have to carry my electric bill with me to get into my house because there was always armed
+
+[5:47] guards and, but, um, so I was working down there. 911 happened. business was slow. I needed a supplementary job. So I had a friend who knew the manager at a place called the
+
+[5:58] Cellar Bar, which is in the Bryant Park hotel. So, um, I went to interview there and uh, that's how I met Chad. He was interviewing on the same day that I was. Yeah, so I walked in. I previously had not bartended ever and had been working in film. And, um, when the, obviously 911 happened, it kind of, they shut down all filming indefinitely because, you know, the resources
+
+[6:22] needed to be diverted due to the the incident. So I jumped behind a bar, met Christie there. And ironically, the person who got me the job at the cellar bar was, uh, he said, oh, there's this bar, the Lower East Cycle, Milk and Honey, and he said something you'd really respond to, and he kind of described it to
+
+[6:38] me, and I'd heard of it, but really didn't necessarily understand what it was. But he's like, you learn how to make really amazing drinks and it's got rules and, you know, you have to have a reservation to get in there. And it didn't really, until you went in there and saw it and did it at the time. It didn't make sense entirely. So Sasha didn't need anybody at that time. So I went to the Bryant Park Hotel, met Christie. S being the person who started... Yeah, Sasha, Sasha Petrosski. And it worked out because Christy and I got hired the same day. We didn't actually know that, but we worked together, I think, for the 1st time a couple of weeks later, and she's like, you know, we're like, what else do you do? She was like, oh, I also work at this bar, Milk and Honey. Yada, yada. And shortly after that, she took me in there for the 1st time. And, you know, it was just kind of a eureka moment. Oh, there's something going on here. These drinks are completely different than anything I've tried. These bartenders are working in a way that I've never seen. are they doing this? And it just the questions just... It was such a juxtaposition having both experiences working at
+
+[7:35] Milk and Honey in a place like Salabar at the same time. Not that solar bar was a bad bar. It was just a totally different style of bar experience, you know, much more common to what people think of, you know, completely not a craft cocktail bar in the sense that
+
+[7:48] milk honey. Yeah, volume oriented. Yeah. High fashion, very flashy crowd, you
+
+[7:54] know. And there begins the journey. I think they actually have a color. I wonder whether hopefully it's a drink question. Whatever the question is, we'll take it, right? Call her, you were on the air. Hey Dave, it's not a drink question. I have a question about cellulose. Okay. I saw that there was a Washington or the Wall Street Journal about how they're adding cellulose could bulk up food and make
+
+[8:14] a creamier. I was wondering what extent can we make food completely from cellulose, like, can we have cellulose, pasta and cellulose bread? I mean, just something that basically gives us all that fiber but doesn't make us fat. They used to do that all the time, and I remember when I was a kid looking at the kind of low calorie bread. I always had a kind of a chub issue growing up. You know, my whole family, like we, we, yo-yo, wait. That's how we work the Arnolds. And, um, I remember looking at the thing and my dad was like, they grind up trees and put them into the bread because the cellulose
+
+[8:43] is not actually the case. They usually probably make it out of cotton, like waste cotton, really, you know, whatever, if they put it in. But you could basically bulk it up up to the point where she don't taste good anymore. You know what I mean? Because you can't digest it because, you know, if you were a cow and you had a whole bunch of stomachs with a bunch of bacteria in it, then you could digest it, right?
+
+[9:00] But you can't. So the limit is just a limit at which it no longer tastes good. They chop up the cellulose very finely, like microcrystal and cellulose, so it can hold water pretty well, but it doesn't provide structure the same way that flour or protein, you know, protein and flour
+
+[9:16] can or even the starch when they're linking together. So, um, the limit is strictly one of like, you know, however much, it's basically just a filler that they're adding. Does that make sense? Yeah, I understand. just wondering what's the max you could put in there before it won't hold together, you know, the gluten, wouldn't. I've never tried it, but I'm sure what they, if I was going to try to make a,
+
+[9:37] like a cellulose bread, what I would do is I would, I would dope it with a bunch of cellulose and then dope it with vital wheat
+
+[9:44] gluten and then, I mean, it would be some, I dont think it would taste good now, mind you. I think it would taste bad. I don't know what the upper limit is. I mean, it's, because this cellulose, I don't know. Probably doesn't have much taste. I don't know what it's going to do on a. I'm not saying it's going to taste bad. My recollection, because I did buy that bread, was that it wasn't as good as the normal bread I was buying, but this is just a recollection now. Just a recollection. You know what I'm saying? Another question, I saw that there was a book that came out called why we're
+
+[10:13] fat, I believe. And basically says that the carbs regulate insulin and therefore regulate the uptake of fat.
+
+[10:21] I was wondering if, uh, you were to go on a low carb diet, what would you, uh, supplant most of your, your diet
+
+[10:27] with? Like, what kind of meals? What kind of like, you know, ethnic dishes that are low carb and you know, you could eat every day. Oh geez. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, I tend, uh, I tend not to believe any sort of kind
+
+[10:41] of, uh, um, diet, um, any sort of diet thing, especially one that is like, uh, that gives up one nutrient for another because I think that you, you're
+
+[10:51] gonna, a lot of times you're gonna end up not being satisfied. A lot of these diets do work in the short term. But I think, and of course, there are people who are huge advocates of low carbs. There's people who are advocates of low, low fat. I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend like a moderate consumption of a moderate amount of widely varied diet.
+
+[11:12] Now, that said, I have in the past. I used to do a diet, really unhealthy diet. Don't, everyone out, don't think worse than me here. I went on a diet called Blunch. This is my own diet, blunch, because when you when you when you combine breakfast and lunch and you mean to do it, that's brunch, right?
+
+[11:27] That's a good thing. Brunch is a good thing. You know, we have mimosas or whatever. You guys probably hate mimosas. I like them at brunch, brunch, brunch. Anyway, maybe Bloody Mary, whatever, brunch. Blunch, right, is when you don't do it because it's fun. You do it because you're just grinding through it. So what I would do is I would have one meal a day before dinner, and the 1st time I blunched, it was a bagel with nothing on it, and then I would eat nothing until dinner, and then I would eat a normal dinner with my
+
+[11:53] family because that makes me a social human being. So to me, being social is the most important thing. So I would eat a normal dinner and eat one thing during the day. I lost a lot of muscle mass on, on the, on that, and it was really kind of bad, bad news for me, and I ended up actually having to go to the doctor
+
+[12:07] and like have a bunch of awful procedures done to check to make sure that I didn't have cancer because I was bleeding from unspeakable places.
+
+[12:14] But it did work. The 2nd time that I did, and also you're a raging jerk, when the dinner time comes around, because you're, and you smell like, like, crap, because
+
+[12:24] you're, you're totally ketotic, and you're breathing out, like what smells like, like, fumes of death out of your mouth at the end of the day. The 2nd time I did it because it is effective. It's all about being regimented. I ate only 2 eggs, 2 hard-boiled eggs. I was like, okay, 2 hard boiled eggs. I lost less muscle mass on that one, but I still was a huge jerk. So I would recommend, to be social, if you, if you know, being social is important to you, which it is to me. Like, I'm not recommending going on the blunch diet, but I'm saying be very, very, very regimented. If you want to cut down your car, be extremely regimented during the day. It's very easy to plan out your weekly meals, especially your lunch and your breakfast, be extremely regimented, give yourself no choices. If there's no choices, you won't stray. Then if you stray a little bit at dinner, at least you look like a human being with your family. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I was thinking about getting into I think it's a Middle Eastern breakfast, they call it fool? Yeah, full, like full, like uh, like uh, beans, like uh, like uh, fava beans, full Medemus. Yeah. That stuff is delicious. That'd be something good to supplant the whole day. That is delicious, by the way. And you can get it in a can, so you don't have to work. And even my kids used to eat the heck out of that stuff. Full, you know. Well, you know, beans in the can. Beans in a can are one of the few things in a can that are good. You know what I mean? You've supplemented with your own stuff that, you know, that you had it, but like, you know, I'm no, I'm no hater on canned beans. I mean, I know how to make my own beans. you guys haters on canned beans? We eat them all the time. I'm no hater. I'm no hater. But yes, I mean, I'm sure it's going to be better if you make it from scratch. But if you make a batch at the beginning of the week, let's say, then you can have it. I mean, it's for me, it wouldn't be reasonable to make myself a real breakfast every day.
+
+[14:01] I can't. I can't. You know what I mean? Does this make sense? Is this helpful at all? All right, cool. One last thing. Where's the like a good online site to get used restaurant equipment. I'm not talking about like stoves and things like that, but I mean, like hotel pans and... Use pans and stuff like
+
+[14:20] that. Online, it's tough for small items like that. I mean, eBay obviously is good. Um, and I use it all the time for certain things. The best thing to do if you're in a major city, unfortunately, restaurants and bars go out of business all the time. When they go out of business, they auction off at what happens is usually everyone at the end of the of the business is so pissed off and everyone owes everyone else money.
+
+[14:41] So basically, you steal whatever you want and then you walk out. And so what happens is, is, uh, someone goes in, whoever has the lease, whoever's owed the most money goes in, hires an auctioneer, and you go in there and you can buy everything at like
+
+[14:56] pennies, pennies on a dollar. And so you can buy pans, like hotel pans. You have to buy like 20. You know what I mean? Because it's like, okay, we got a lot of 20 hotel bands. and you're like ¢50 He's like ¢50 you crazy ¢50 a dollar. You like, okay, a dollar, and then you have to buy all 20 for 20 bucks. That's how it works. But those are usually in the back of the paper. They used to be in the back of the Health Wanted in New York Times every Sunday, but I don't know where they are now because my wife has forbidden me from going to... a couple websites that announce those as well. Oh, really? Yeah, they're probably all based on the web now. They used to be in the newspaper back when people read newspapers, but do you guys buy at
+
+[15:29] auction? I used to all the time, but... You know what? My mom just started a business doing that. So I've just recently started doing it. It's a lot of fun. No, yeah, it's it's crazy. It's really weird. It's like fun because you're getting cheap stuff. At the same time, it's depressing. Usually like someone from the restaurant is there with their face in their hands and like, you
+
+[15:47] know, you know, someone like me is like, you know, I'll buy all the liquor from the bar and they're like, do you have your liquor license with you? And you're like, uh... Yeah, it can be depressing. Like buying used bar stools can be a depressing thing. But oh, man. But I've been there many times. Anyway, thank you so much for the call. I think we're actually going to go to our 1st break and we're going to come back and taste some stuff that you guys brought, right? Yep. Cooking issues.
+
+[16:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah We, we, we, we're taking back, yeah. When you wish about a dream. That made my face like this single, yeah. Once you see, your lives are clear. In the sky's so bad, yeah. You should start. Come on, who you are. Shine by the sea. And you can do the baby, but you can do the baby.
+
+[17:21] Chance, I've got interview Shining white for light
+
+[17:31] on you. Yeah, I'm gonna keep your sparking color, oh yeah. Make your mind big and strong, yeah. Oh, and I'm about the sun, yeah. Yeah, it's all like what that just begun. Yeah, yeah. Now I got my heart, no, yeah. What don't you never do is lose again?
+
+[18:21] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling all your questions too, 718, 497-2128. 718-497-2128 coming to you today with Chad Solomon and Christy Poe from Cuffs and Buttons here tasting some of their fantabulous stuff. Tell me what we're tasting. By the way, you guys feel like chump suckers for not being able to taste it with us, am I right? Yeah, totally, they should. First up here is a mint chocolate, lactart soda. which is a mouthful, I know. It's a drink that we created for an event that we did a couple of weeks ago for
+
+[18:50] Magnum bars from Europe, European chocolate ice cream bars. And they commissioned us to create 3 drinks for the event that, you know, happened or coincided with a Tribeca Film Festival. Carl Lagerfeld shot 3 short films, inspired by
+
+[19:04] Magnum, with Starlet Rachel Bilson, as kind of his muse. And they screened these shorts at this event, and we provided these cocktails. And this is a cocktail where we actually took your technique of the rapid nitrous
+
+[19:20] infusion and infused cacao nibs into VSOP cognac and Highland Park 12
+
+[19:25] scotch. So Louis Roye, VSO Piconiac, Highland Park 12 Scotch, with Cacao Nibs. And then the streak features lactart, which is extinct acid of milk that's been reborn and acts as a fantastic acid in the
+
+[19:40] drink. Well, especially with the chocolate. It works really nicely with the chocolate, I think. Right. And the wood. Yeah, and one of the reasons that we really wanted to use it is when people come to you with certain flavors they want to work
+
+[19:49] with, for us in this instance, it was like chocolate, vanilla, you know, all those kind of things that are very
+
+[19:55] clowing in a cocktail at times. And this allowed us to make, you know, that rich chocolate feel, you know, kind of creamy
+
+[20:02] feel too, but without getting like clowing and sweet. Overly heavy. And what's interesting about it is it's carbonated for all you who can't taste it. But it's one of the few kind of wooded carbonated drinks that I really like, you know what I mean? Because a lot of times, you know, you get like these kind of these mixes and you carbonate it and it can throw the balance off and like the woods can go all out of proportion. It could be a problem. But here I think it really works. I think these also, because these are foreign woods. You know, you have the Highland Park 12 are J's aged in the sherry casks, and the French oak, obviously, on the VSOP cognac, whereas the, like, bourbons and
+
+[20:40] rice are much more aggressive American oak. Yeah, I don't like them usually carbonated. Right, yeah. I mean, like the worst drink maybe I've ever made. The exception of in college, the worst drink I think I've ever made is carbonated Manhattan.
+
+[20:51] It's a new body. No, so that was that was super cool. It's one of the drinks we did for that event. Next up here, we just did a pretty fun project with... What's that fruit? This is a creme demure. It's Merlay? Crème de mure. So our friend Tony Cigliaro in London. Good man. Worked with Luke Merlay to develop and create cocktails with their line of liqueurs in
+
+[21:15] Europe. I have some stories about him that I can't say on the air. That involve an alligator hat? involve some crazy, crazy business. Luke Merlay came to us and we did the cocktail development here for the states. And so this, in particular, is the creme demure, the blackberry liqueur that we've turned into a phosphate soda. So it's the, as soon as you open it, it's something we carbonated again. Obviously, all those volatiles just come explode into the room with
+
+[21:46] the carbonation. This is gin, uh, Tengaray gin, acid phosphate, creme demure, dash of orange bitters, uh, 4 ounces of water, and then we carbonated
+
+[21:55] it at 50 psi. Nice. So as a phosphate, for those. Yeah, there's another one of these kind of extinct things as being brought back to the fore by a guy named Darcy O'Neill. His websites, the Art of the Drink. He has a book called Fix the Pumps, which is
+
+[22:08] old soda jerk slang for look at the lady with the with the large chest. Yes. Extremely interesting book. bringing some of these old ingredients back. Acid phosphate, the main component of it is phosphoric acid, and it's the acid that's in Coca-Cola and colas. And its characteristic is it's an extremely dry acid. It's actually, if you get it in pure form, which is the way I have it. I dont have the acid phosphate. It's really hard to work with because if you go a little bit too far, you're like, oh, ho, hey, you know what I mean? But it's like, it's very interesting stuff and I think it really works well with this, with this drink. Do you find the same thing that sometimes it's hard to work with? Well, there is a big difference when we carbonated it ourselves versus using like a club soda, like the way it comes off on the
+
+[22:51] palate. So, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I know what you're referring to. I would say this, there's, you know, a quarter ounce of acid phosphate in this and that's the high end. Generally, depending on the drink you get by with as much as a half teaspoon. Right. So and you can get this stuff from the art of the drink, right? Right. It's a mail order from Toronto. And the characteristic of this asset, and it's one of the acids that should
+
+[23:14] see, hopefully a resurgence is it's dry cola-like nature of the acidity. Not the flavor of cola, but that dry cola like acidity. No, the beauty is, you know, as opposed to lemon or lime juice, which have a very imposing
+
+[23:28] flavor on their own, this brings that acidity to the drink, but it's very, it does not impose itself. it allows other, you know, flavors to come through, very clean. Right. And it's the only kind of inorganic acid we use and non-fruit-based acid. It doesn't lend an extra fruit note to the to the drink, which is something that's really, it's kind of it's kind of cool. A very nice drink. What's the name of that again? This is blackberry phosphate. All right. Very simple. We actually did a line for, for, as Chad mentioned, we did this for Malay liqueurs, and we did phosphates for, for every uh, expression of the liqueure brands, and it, they all turned out wonderful. Different based spirits, different balances. Because obviously with the with the fruit liqueurs, they're, you know, being a natural product, they're, depending on how acidic or sweet the fruit is, they adjust
+
+[24:17] the sugar. Oh, wait, we have a color. Before I go to the color, though. I have to say, like, I think, I see whether you guys agree. Like, even if, okay, when you're mixing a drink, a lot of times, obviously you're going to use the real fruit, right? But I think having the acids on board on hand and tasting and playing with them gives you such a sense for what's going on with different fruits and different acids, like studying the acids that you use in
+
+[24:41] a drink, because it's such an important component, I think, is, don't you think it's key to kind of becoming a better mixer? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the more options you have, the more kind of the more your understanding is across the board. Right. And by the way, I'm going to take the call in one second. But phosphoric
+
+[24:59] acid gets a bad rap because if you drink it in very large quantities, it can take calcium. So people say that women shouldn't have too much phosphoric acid because it can reduce bone density. I haven't seen any studies that moderate amounts of phosphoric acid are detrimental. I mean, otherwise everyone who drinks cola would be dead. Well, the other thing about acid phosphate and what makes it more approachable to work with is the fact that it's partially neutralized. It's, you start with 10% phosphoric acid in solution and it's neutralized down to 2% through calcium,
+
+[25:31] magnesium and potassium mineral salt. Yeah, because the phosphate will grip onto the calcium. Jack, do we lose a call or we still have them? Well, hopefully they call back. Maybe they got cut off with their with their cell phones. They got thirsty. They got theirs. They like, oh, all this talk about drinks. Hopefully they, hopefully they call back. went to the fridge. All right, so what's our what's our next beverage? So this next one is a cocktail we're presenting our, we'll be serving at the upcoming MCC Manhattan Cocktail Classic opening
+
+[25:58] gala on Friday night. Which I'm working at too, you know. Oh, sweet. And there's tickets still available. Really? Yeah, their tickets still available. Okay. Not to plug an event that we're all working here, but I didn't go to the party last year. Apparently it was... But I heard it was like the most insane party of like,
+
+[26:14] oh, crazy, the entire New York public library, run amok, craziness, things falling, dwarves. Well, it's a pretty, it's a pretty huge event. 120 different bars, you know, 120 different bars, different cocktails, bartenders serving individual drinks,
+
+[26:28] real glassware, black tie. We overtake the New York public library. The scope of it is pretty big. You know what I'm doing for it? I'm doing the non-alcoholic drinks, so I'm going to, I'm taking five gallon corny kegs. I'm strapping them onto a backpack. I'm filling them with soda water, and I have 2 soda valves, like the squeeze valves, nice beckers. I'm going to be running around like soda cowboy, like spraying soda. It gonna be good. good business I have a little 20 ounce CO2 container that I'm filling with a nitrous soda mix, nitrous CO2 soda mix to keep myself pressurized as I walk
+
+[27:02] around. It should be fun. Hydration, man. Hydration, man. Hydration, man. Yeah, it's the 1st time I've ever done a non-alcoholic. Should be fun. The soda stuff is so fun for non-alcoholic. It's good to visit Dave after like, you know, you go to a booth, then you visit Dave. You go to a booth, then you visit Dave. Exactly. Well, hopefully I can come visit you. Sounds okay, yeah. Well, yeah, it depends how many people I have working with me, whether or not I can, how much, you know, I can walk
+
+[27:27] around. Jack, do ever get those guys back? All right. I'm sorry, caller, that you got disconnected. Please call back. What are we drinking here? So this is a Byzantine julep. It's Laird's bonded Applejack. We are going to be working at the Lairdon Company bar. wish you could smell this. So it's Laird's bonded Apple Brandy, the 100 proof. An excellent product, an American product, one of the great American products, the oldest native distilled spirit. They're coming up on 300 years. Still family owned. So the ninth generation. I love their product, except for they also make some of the worst products in the world. They don't sell them to their own name, but I've seen their little thing. Like, don't they make senators club vodka? Our personal favorite is 5 o'clock vodka. So we love 5 o'clock. In Detroit, they mix it with Faygo, orange soda. And if you have enough of them, they say you're on your way to dance a clock. Oh, man, man. Laird. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. So, blonded apple brandy. coriander tincture. Uh, mint, uh, a little bit of malic acid, and, um, oh, uh,
+
+[28:35] date date syrup, date um, date molasses and Demerara syrup, mixed together. This will actually be serving this julep style over crushed ice, which so this will be a little bit better. It's a pain in the butt. better diluted. Yeah, like crushed ice? Are they going to get it? they're bringing it in. yeah There's a really deep, deep tasting drink. It has a really kind of like a real big depth of flavor and none of the components really kind of pop out as being over the top.
+
+[29:01] You know what I mean? I think it's very well integrated. And, um, I think maybe it's that maybe the depth is coming from the date. What do you think? Oh, definitely. Yeah. This drink was actually inspired by a trip that we took to Turkey. So we're using some of those kind of, you know, more cool Eastern flavors in there and it does have that total like unique depth to it. We also do a very slow roast on the Moroccan coriander seed and before we put it into, or to make the tincture. And so that has a real depth and roundness to it itself. Coriander's weird. It's so interesting because you can get so many different flavors out of it, depending on how you treat it, whether you toast it, whether you don't, whether you put it in a syrup, whether you do a
+
+[29:41] tincture. Ive done some distillates for it, for I did for Jimmy and I did dissolate for him, and it was a totally different flavor. Like the distillate brought out a lot more of the kind of those kind of high citrusy notes. You know what I mean? And like, uh, the, and not a lot of some of those base notes that you're going to get out of a tincture. coriander is a great, great, great thing. Yeah, it's incredibly versatile. And good in a soda. Yeah, I'm going to do a coriander soda. One of the people I work with, Cliff was like, let's do a coriander soda. I haven't heard of that before. Let's do it. We'll do it, do it. So it's coriander, and we're going to round out the, you know, the mid-palate. If you just do straight coriander on a soda, the mid-palates lacking a little bit. So what we're going to do is we're going to hit it with some malic and citric to bring up the kind of citrusy notes of it, acid. And then we're adding a touch of Thai chili pepper because a little bit of spice brings it to that kind of gingery note. You know what I mean? And makes it more like a soda that you've had, but totally different. You know what I mean? What are we mixing up now? So this is my bike ride's going to suck, by the way. Or be really fun. So another event we've got, we're doing during a Manhattan cocktail classic is we're doing the Kampari presents a spirited fete for the senses, inspired by Padma
+
+[30:55] Lakshmi at the box. It should be a really cool event. It's us. We're doing this cocktail. It's our variation on the Negroni. We're calling it the Marco Polo Negroni inspired. We were all asked to create variations on the Negroni based on Podman's cookbook,
+
+[31:13] tangy tart, hot and sweet. When is this event? on Sunday evening at the box. Um, and so this is basically a very uh, classic, uh, a paratif Negroni, equal parts, uh, beefeater,
+
+[31:24] chinzano vermouth, um, Campari. And then what we've done is we've added tincture of papali long pepper, tincture of mace, tincture of coriander, tincture of cardamom,
+
+[31:33] and very minute quantities. So it's recognizable as a Negroni, but there's definitely get the sense that it's exotic. And then with that piper ream drawn out of the papali long pepper, your lips tingle and it's a
+
+[31:45] very, that's a very floral, you know, pepper. So like an easy way to go on a Negroni variation is to add some form of citrus, but you go on an entire opposite direction, have added kind of base notes and spicy notes to it. More aromatics. Yeah, totally opposite direction. From the way most people would... Because we still wanted to keep it an aromatic cocktail, but we've, you'll, as you taste it here,
+
+[32:04] it's, it is definitely a different animal. And by the way, for those of you out there who are just beginning your drinking careers, right? There are a couple of drinks that you can order at a bar. And no matter who you are with, you are considered a badass or okay. Negroni is one of those things. If you are with any sort of professional. I dont care who they are, how, like, fancy, how anything, if you walk up and you're like, you know what I want now? A Negroni, then you're a badass, and, and if anyone bothers you that you're ordering something that's vaguely pink, depending on how much, whether they get it wrong with the remote, uh, um,
+
+[32:38] Just let them try it. Yeah, yeah, let him try it. And plus everyone else who knows anything will laugh them out of the out of the universe. Negroni is one of like the all-time favorite drinks that people who like drinks like. Is this true? I think so, yeah. It's one of the quintessential apparatives, and I think it's definitely an acquired flavor, but it's one that you're rewarded a lot of
+
+[32:55] loyalty. A taster cocktail. I always tell people when we do trainings and you're working with bartenders who haven't been in the industry very long. They've not had the taste of campari, the ginshin, and the mix of the gin and the sweepermouth. If they taste it, every time they make it, eventually one day they'll crave it. It's like. Yeah, right. The notes from the from the pepper coming out. You know what? What's interesting to me, though, also, is that they marry with the with the Campari flavor. And so the Campari is like, um... The comparing note, it's interesting because it doesn't dominate more than it normally does, but I can kind of pick it out more than it normally does.
+
+[33:34] It's kind of, it's, it's, it focuses it in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing is, oops, by the way, no, jeez. By the way, I'm spilling all over myself now. By the way, Kamari, one of my favorite, one of my favorite products, although I do like Apparol, which they also own now. Yes, also delicious, different thing, but yeah. I mean, you know, different similar. Oh, for sure. Yeah, like, you know, apple, lower alcohol content, different flavor. It's a brighter orange or it's a different orange. So a little bit of spicy ceramatic, like, makes you go back for that next sip. At the garnish. You're trying to figure it out. It's like just enough there to like really pique your imagination and curiosity with what flavors you're getting. So for the garnish, we actually curried some orange juice and then compressed that curried orange juice into the orange. So as you taste that. I'm gonna eat the orange. I ate the whole thing, creme jerk, including the rind. Oh yeah. But I think it came out with some heat. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got some heat on it. But it's a really wonderful curry thing. Oh, and I guess we should we should point out. We were asked to specifically the 4 categories where tangy, tart, hot, tangy tart, hot, and sweet, and we chose hot. So that's why the papali, and that's why the curry. You guys are no strangers to freaking heat on a drink, though. You guys made a drink once, and this is before I knew you. Um,
+
+[34:56] you, I don't know whether both of you or whether just Chad did an event at the SCI with a, um, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. With a hot pepper drink. Put me online behind. I can drink. I can drink anything. The lapitata, the kick, yes. with the chipotle, uh, uh, chipotle infused mezcal. Yeah, that was from hardcore business. We were talking, we were telling somebody about that drink last night, actually. And we're at that event. That was the art of art of the cocktail that Yvonne, Yvonne
+
+[35:24] LeMoyne held there. What's he doing now? I think he's got his I Food Studios. Nice. nice. You know, I haven't seen you in a long time. Hey, Jack, can we go to one more commercial break and take a little bit longer than we normally do because I got some questions I got to get to. Yes, we can. All righty, we're going to commercial break. Call in your last chance to ask questions. 718-497-2128. Cooking issues.
+
+[35:56] Do you remember?
+
+[36:04] Love is changing your mind. Wow, chasing the clouds away. I'm
+
+[36:15] ringing. In the key, that souls, singing. As you dance in the night, remember.
+
+[37:01] On a hand with your mind to see you. Remember How we do love was here to stay. Now it's involved, I'm a love champ. Only
+
+[37:48] This is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Every Thursday at 4.30 PM, tune in to Flash Talks Cash, hosted by Joanne Flash Fleming. Flash Talks Cash is a weekly talk show discussing personal and small business money issues.
+
+[38:03] The show examines current topics from the financial tax world and the ways it impacts your wallet. The focus is to help people and small businesses find ways to make money, save money, spend money, and know what to do with your money when you get it. Again, that's every Thursday at 430 PM on the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[38:28] Hello and welcome back to cooking issues for the final segment today. We're here with Chat Solomon and Christy Pope. They are a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll. They are southerners who are I consider to be New Yorkers now, even though they live all over the country, but they they do have both both angles gone, right? You had something you guys were working on now, a combination of cocktail culture and music or? Well, we were just interviewed for
+
+[38:52] a new website called Rocktail Culture, which we just loved. It's great. It is the intersection of cocktails and rock music, which totally speaks to us. I think the guy behind it is David Blutenthal, and he's he works in the music business. We have yet to meet him face to face. had a great conversation with him over the phone. He is a cocktail geek, and also really obviously very passionate about music, and it kind of merged the 2 in a, into a kind of an interesting site where he interviews bands about their drinking habits on the
+
+[39:24] road, and they're interested in cocktails, and then bartenders, you know, vice versa. their music. Nice. All right. So listen, I'm going to tell you this. You have one last chance to call in to ask some cool drinks questions to our amazing drink panel here. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. I am now going to go over in Blitzkrieg Fashion, the email questions that have come in. You guys chime in if you have any anything you want to talk about. Okay, Teddy DeVico. uh, who is uh, team chef teddy.blogspot.com or something like that. That's it. I think Blogspot's the funniest thing in the world, the word block spot. By the way, I'm getting lit up on their drinks there. Hey, David, Nastasia, 1st off, I want to thank you guys for doing the podcast. Hey, thank you for liking it. I listen to it every week and I learn a lot. I have 2 random questions. One, has anyone ever tried making chocolate from coffee beans or coffee from cocoa
+
+[40:13] nibs? Both of them go through very similar processes. I think it would be possible to make such products. Okay, here's the issue. They have different kind of fat levels, right? So coffee has a certain amount of oil in it, and that's the delicious coffee oils that when you when you roast to a very dark stage come out. But in order to make chocolate per se, you need a very high quantity of
+
+[40:33] fat and cocoa butter has a very specific kind of melting
+
+[40:38] profile and it's a much more saturated solid fat than coffee is.
+
+[40:43] So, you could make, you could take coffee powder and reduce it to very, very, very, very fine powder and then grind it over a course of time with cocoa butter and produce something that had the texture of chocolate.
+
+[40:54] If you then ate that product. It might be delicious. I'm not going to take away from the delicious aspect, but you are going to be running to the toilet and shaking like a
+
+[41:03] Chihuahua dog because the caffeine is going to take you for a serious ride. A friend of mine used to be a manager at a coffee shop in New Haven, Connecticut, and he used to take Turkish ground coffees, which is about the finest ground that anyone
+
+[41:16] uses, and dump it on vanilla ice cream and eat it in between his cigarette brakes. And I've never seen a human being who shook faster than
+
+[41:24] that guy. literally like a human blur. So I wouldn't necessarily, you could do it, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it. And Coco, Nibs, if you treated them like coffee, you roast them to a lower temperature than you do coffee because of the oils and
+
+[41:40] whatnot, and it doesn't quite follow the same roasting profile, there's a lot of fat in there. You could brew a beverage, but there's also the extractables from cocoa are a different kind of percentage than you get out of coffee. So you kind of, if you were doing espresso, which is all I really care about. You would get a different kind of extraction, so I don't know it would work the same, but you could. It's not impossible, but you have to account for the different fat levels and the different solubilities and things
+
+[42:06] they're extracting out of it. Make sense? Makes sense. All right. Two, with dry aging beef, you have to trim off the molded exterior, but if you were to eat that, would it be harmful to
+
+[42:14] you? I'm going to be harmful per se, but it might be gross. I know eating moldy exterior would not be pleasant by itself. Oh, there you go. But I think you would be able to make a super beefy, funky sauce with the trimmings of dryish beef. Typically, the trimmings have a super funky odor and most people like a little bit of funk in their meat, but not like a hardcore amount of funk.
+
+[42:30] So if you get a dry age piece of meat, hardcore. After they trim it for you, when they're going to cut it and sell it to you. If you want to know the super funk, smell that bone, because the
+
+[42:39] bone where the bone is, they don't trim off that little piece of skin on the bone. That's where that funk is. And this is why certain chefs like Adam Perry Lang comes to mind. Don't like to cook dry aged beef in a bag, low tempered, sous vide because that funk then permeates the whole thing. I think a little bit of funk, a good thing. I think a lot of funk and like you might like it and like maybe like a couple other people might like it, but a good
+
+[43:03] 50, 60% of your guests aren't gonna groove on it. What do you think? think that sounds about right. All right. Keep coming with the with the excellent questions, Teddy. All right. We have a question from Alvin Schutz. Hello, he's a longtime listener, first time emailer. Thank you for emailing. Please email more. He also enjoys the blog. Thank. App appreciate it. Okay, we hope we can take some time to talk about barbecue, barbecue. awesome subject, right? Do you know the burn temps for lump charcoal versus briquettes versus propane? And also, Alton Brown says that burning propane produces water vapor that inhibits smoke penetration into meat, but many smokers employ a water pan to moisten the cooking environment. How is this different? Alton Brown, much as I love Alton Brown, he is just straight up wrong on this, right? When you burn propane, it is true that water is produced. However, if you stick your hand into a
+
+[43:54] big box full of a propane fire. It's not going to get cold and clammy. It's going to burn. You know what I mean? Because although water vapor is produced, right, you're also producing a tremendous amount of heat, and in fact, the food itself already has water in it. And as you say, there's a water pan there, right? And specifically, what he's talking about is smoking. If you're smoking, you're not using charcoal. You're using wood, because charcoal doesn't produce the smoke flavor, unless you have fat dripping on it, and then we
+
+[44:22] have the flare ups from the fat that are creating those flavors on the meat. Smoke flavor comes from burning wood. When you burn wood, which is an organic substance that is, their hydrocarbons in it that are burning, you are also producing water. So when you are, even if you don't soak your wood chips, you are producing water, when you're combusting wood to produce smoke, there ain't, there ain't 2 ways about it, that's all there is to it. The only way is if you were to 100% efficiently combust charcoal that was 100% well
+
+[44:49] made. You were basically just producing carbon dioxide because there's not a lot of hydrogen left in it.
+
+[44:54] It's basically turned to carbon. But otherwise, you are producing water when you're burning it. So I don't think it's a huge freaking issue. What is an issue is that in order to get good smoke penetration on your meat, you need to get
+
+[45:05] the surface moisture of your product down to below about 10% moisture, which is why you dry your product out first, you form a pellicle before you're going to smoke it, and it's nice and
+
+[45:16] dry. Now it's going to suck up smoke like the, like the end of the world is coming. But don't worry about propane, right? But the smoky flavors, right? Aren't made from the propane. Smoky flavors are made from the crappy, incomplete combustion of a complicated product, which is wood. And charcoal grilling flavors are made by fat dripping off of your meat and hitting charcoal, flaring up and
+
+[45:44] like, and like, you know, charring your meat that way. That's where those those flavors come from. As for the different temperatures, the different temperatures depend on how much oxygen is available. Um, to it, but the temperatures aren't that radically different between propane, methane and a well fueled charcoal fire. Wood fire, maybe a little bit less because it's incompletely burning and there's moisture in
+
+[46:11] there, whatnot. But here's the kicker, right? The reason why gas grills aren't usually as good as charcoal grills, right? Propane has about 91,000 or 90,000 BTUs per hour of
+
+[46:22] energy, sorry, per pound, right? 91,000 BTUs. So if you burned a pound an hour, you're doing about as well as my deep fryer, which is really, really
+
+[46:31] good, really good. But most gas grills don't burn that much propane. They just don't have enough balls to really do what you want, right? Now, even though charcoal, right, even good hardwood charcoal, um, doesn't have, um, doesn't have uh, that many BTUs per hour. I mean, BTUs per pound compared to propane, much less, in fact. Like on the order of like 10,000 versus like 90,000,
+
+[46:58] right? What you can do with charcoal is dump an entire bag into your
+
+[47:03] Weber at once, fire that sucker up, burn it like within like an
+
+[47:08] hour. You can release all of that energy at once, right? So you get to control this immense release of energy with the charcoal. So you can overwhelm it and produce more energy and get a huge amount of power out of your charcoal just because you can burn it in
+
+[47:23] faster and higher quantities than you do propane. If you had a real propane burner, like, like fed with oxygen, I can melt, you know, I can melt steel with
+
+[47:34] it. You know what I mean? So it's not like I can't get the energy out of it. It's just your gas grill. It's puny in comparison to what you can do with the average charcoal grill, even though the theoretical temperatures, and by the way, like
+
+[47:47] they quote temperatures like 1900 degrees Celsius, that's like for the very hottest part of the flame. That's nowhere near what the temperature is on your meat. What's really important is the heat you're producing on meat. And actually, charcoal is also very good for that too, because once it burns down, it produces a lot of radiant
+
+[48:01] heat and that radiant heat is really good at delivering heat to your meat. So, uh, if you had the world's ballsiest, like, propane burner, you could definitely outdo someone with who was underusing charcoal, but it's hard to beat dumping an entire bag of charcoal on
+
+[48:17] your on your grill for just kind of straight balls. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, heat to your meat. Heat to your meat. all about heat to your meat. Second question was, is it possible to achieve mired reactions in eggs cooked at temperatures between 62 and 67 Celsius, preferably in a wet cooking environment without increasing the
+
+[48:38] pH to unpalatable levels? I don't think so. Uh, typically, um, the mired reactions I get are higher, closer to the boiling point of uh, water. And so I don't think you're going to be able to to get to get those things. This is a different question from Daniel. He also says, weeks ago, we mentioned upcoming MoFad fundraiser. That's Museum of Food and Drink in the Bay Area. He's tried contacting MoFad and has not received a reply. Daniel, stay tuned. We've just hired a full-time person to work on the museum of food and drinks. She's starting up on June 1st and she's going to be taking over that website and she's going to answer your reply. One of her 1st things is to get this fundraiser ready in the Bay Area. Someone will reply to you. Please send another email. We don't want to leave you hanging. Anyone that wants to either go or be involved. We want you there. It's very, uh, to me, personally important that we, um, we try to get this this museum going. Now, before we leave, I was looking up charcoal, right? And a couple things I learned. I read a book on, sorry, I read an article on charcoal that was interesting to me and bizarre. It's called the influence of aromatic components from, and I don't know what, actually, it's not about charcoal, but I found it. I searched these scientific documents, right? The influence of aromatic compounds from pig manure on odor and flavor of cooked chicken meat by
+
+[49:57] L.L. Hansen. So it turns out that these guys were like, hey, listen, because do you guys know this? If you if you grow your chickens over moldy bedding that's really moldy, like you can get a moldy flavor in your
+
+[50:10] meat. So these cuts were like, well, I wonder if the smell of crap also makes its way into the
+
+[50:17] meat. So they literally raised chicken. This said like, this is how horrible. Like our food production has gotten there. Rather than saying, why don't we not have our chicken coops smell so awful that, um,
+
+[50:28] that like we can't stand being anywhere near them? Instead, we're like, well, let's see whether we can really taste the meat. Edward's been stored in these horrible ways. We justify it. Yeah, so they literally, they literally pumped pig crap stink into like these chicken growing coops for a period of time, uh, and then did sci-by-side blind taste tests on the different kinds of
+
+[50:51] meat, whether, uh, whether or not you could tell that they were raised in pig stink.
+
+[50:56] And turns out you can't, but what a horrible. It's a brave new world. Horrible idea. All right, so listen, we're on our way out, but I want you guys to get the final word. What do you what do you got for us? What do you got? anything? What do we got? Nothing. Visit our website. Okay, given the website. We have a new website. It's www, cuffs and buttons.com. C-U-F-S-A-N-D-B-U-T-T-ONS dot com. And my next band will be Pig Stink Chicken, cooking issues.
+
+[51:39] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[51:56] heritage radio networks in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. And now here's some behind the scenes food news with Katie Keefer. On MeetingPlace.com this week. Lisa M. Keefe, one of their principal writers, published the following article about the USDA's
+
+[52:22] child nutrition program. She reports it on Tuesday, the USDA began implementing new rules that are intended to put more locally grown agricultural products on school children's
+
+[52:32] plates. Part of the healthy hunger free kids act of 2010, which was signed by President Obama in December. The rules allow schools and other providers to, quote, give preference to unprocessed, locally grown, and locally raised agricultural
+
+[52:46] products when buying food for the national school lunch, school breakfast, special milk,
+
+[52:51] child, and adult care, fresh fruit and vegetable, and summer food service programs. Quote, this rule is an important milestone that will help ensure that our children have access to fresh produce and other agricultural products.
+
+[53:04] Said agriculture undersecretary Kevin Concannon in a news release. It will also give a much needed boost to local farmers and agricultural producers. This is Katie Kiefer for behind the scenes food news.
+
+[53:24] Did you know we have a beer show? Check out a small clip from Beer Sessions radio. All right, welcome back to Peer Sessions Radio on Heritage Radio Network. I'm Jimmy Carboni from Jimmy's number 43 and I'm here with Ray Dieter from the DVA Boys. Hey, Jim Ray, this is a fun show. We're drinking Belgian beer. We drinking iktagum. Hanging out with the guys from 124 Rabbit Club, and we got Dawn and Wendy from Vanberg and the Wolf. Let's go back a little bit to kind of build your pedigree. So the 2 of your top brands that we love and that you have now, scholar decent Saison
+
+[53:57] Dupont. Tell us how you met those guys, how you started working with them. Well, Saison Department was really... If you want to hear more, head over to heritageradionetwork.com, where new episodes of
+
+[54:08] beer sessions are posted every week in our archive, and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast
+
+[54:12] in iTunes.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by King Vineyard and Winery. Cane Vineyard and Winery supports Heritage Radio, and the growing movement to change how Americans eat, and how we think about our
+
+[0:10] planet. For more information, visit www.cain5.com.
+
+[0:21] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. I am Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here today in the studio. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly noon to 1245.
+
+[0:34] Calling all of your questions, technical cooking or non-technical cooking or not even cooking related to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:46] So, Nastasia, I'm excited because tomorrow, our new 3D printer arrives. I know, right? Now, folks, fillers you out there that, no, we have a basically a Cornell Fab at home 3D printer, which is an extrusion technology that is used to print food directly.
+
+[1:02] But we're getting now is a Z-Corp printer. Z-Corp printer is a commercial 3D printer, and you can print basically in
+
+[1:10] prints in powder. So we're going to be doing mainly plaster molds, I think. We're going to be making plaster with it. It can do in color. Did you know it could do it in color nastachia? It's a color, color plaster printer, or in starch. But we'll keep you posted on what we make with that. Moustache is currently stinking up the studio with a, um, with a some sort of space heater that's making the
+
+[1:30] entire, uh, studio stink of electric heater with dust on it that just got turned on for the 1st time, which is amazing since it's almost summertime and is actually quite warm and muggy in the
+
+[1:40] studio, so there's no reason. Yeah, very good, very good. have 8 cavities. That's a very interesting fact. You know how many cavities I've had in my whole life? Zero, I know. Zero. For those of you that don't know, Nastasia. Besides not really enjoying most of the foods that we all enjoy, even though she's in the food business, subsists almost entirely on candy. Not just any candy. Nastasia craves any sort of sour candy, correct? Yeah, I've seen her in under, uh, here, another interesting fact. Here's how she can claim that she does not eat the entire package of
+
+[2:16] candy because she has an aversion to certain colors of candy. To be fair, based on whatever artificial flavor is in them. But I think it's also mainly a color thing. I mean, it is true that I blindfolded her and she was able to distinguish which colors by taste. So it's not that she can't do that. I think that she has matched the color with the taste in her mind and it's the color that bothers her. So tell everyone out there in case they're going to send you some sour patch or sour crybaby candy is what you like the most, right? Which are the colors that you hate nostalgia? Cherry, red, and lemon yellow, and sometimes orange. Sometimes orange. Yeah. Okay. And but these interestingly, even though the flavors are different. These are the same colors that you dislike in other sour candies, correct? that's true. true. How many cavities? Eight. Eight? Yeah. So yesterday I did the experimental cuisine collectives yearly, uh, yearly, uh, hoo-ha shindig thing, right? I gave a talk, and Nastasia was notably absent because apparently she was at the dentist getting her face drilled
+
+[3:20] out. Then she called me and said, I'm coming to the event, but I'm high on Xanax and
+
+[3:25] Vicodin. I was like, why don't you go home and sleep that off? This is a true story or a false story? Yeah. Okay. So, in the ongoing annals of cinnamon hydrocolloids, James McCulloch writes in from Australia, he says, I remember you were discussing the gelling qualities of cinnamon a few weeks ago, and he has been doing some experimenting. So, uh, basically, he did an experiment where he uh, mixed cinnamon. He said pictures of it, actually. Oh my god, the pictures aren't coming up on my iPad. That's unfortunate. But, uh, okay. So he decided to leave the cinnamon out of his spice mix until after water was added. So he made a spice mix, added water, and it was, you know, thin and fluid, and then added cinnamon to it. And after a while, it got kind of thick and snotty, I believe is what he said. Snotty, did you say snotty, gooey gel, phlegm like texture, phlegm. Well, that's interesting. Phlegm is the a phlegm like texture is the characteristic texture of a
+
+[4:21] hydrocoloid called Xanthan gum, which basically is used as thickening, thickening agent, but in higher
+
+[4:26] concentrations, turns to, I call it snot. You very polite. I guess they're more polite in Australia than they are here, calling it phlegm. Maybe we should call it phlegm from now on. instead it's not. Yeah? All right. So that's interesting. I tried to find, uh, and I've tried to find before, and I tried to find again this morning, the, um, whether there was any known hydrocolloid in, uh, in cinnamon, there is a, there is a polysaccharide, AX, which is supposed to have some sort of
+
+[4:54] bioactive, uh, properties, but I wasn't able to find anything. I mean, it makes sense to me that ground up bark would have some thickening, which is what it is, would have some thickening power. There is a actual hydrocoloid gum called casia gum, but it's from an unrelated, um, casia to the, well, not unrelated, but not the same casia that we use for cinnamon
+
+[5:15] substitute. And also it's from the seeds, not from the bark. I thought maybe that maybe cellulose in the ground up, bark would also act as a hydrocolloid, but cellulose itself doesn't really act, isn't soluble at all until it's been
+
+[5:29] treated either with acid or with other things to make things like microcrystinal cellulose, MCC gum, or cellulose gum. So I don't know that it's a cellulose, but there's got to be something in there. I mean, you can see in the picture that it does do something. I hope I can find, if there's any hydrocolloid expert out there. Can you please call and tell us what is in cinnamon that causes
+
+[5:49] jelly properties? Anyway, uh, Brian in New Zealand? we're doing the Australian and New Zealand show today, which I enjoy. You know, I've never been to never been over there. You want to? You know, Dave Chang just opened a new place in Australia and he loves it down there. He said it's fantastic. New Zealand. I want to go to New Zealand because I want to go to the home of the New Zealand,
+
+[6:09] the New Zealand grapefruit, a.k.a. the Porman Orange, which is one of my favorite citruses on the planet that we had at Gene Lester's
+
+[6:16] ranch out in Watsonville, California. Was that one of your favorites there? Yeah, that was really delicious. But they don't ship it here and they don't grow it here because because we're dumb. Okay. Brian has a comment on the thermal mix, and for those of you who don't live in Europe, which is most of
+
+[6:32] us, I guess, right? The thermal mix is, and I guess they have them in Australia, New Zealand as well. Thermal Mix is basically is made for a home, but all of the fancy European chefs use them.
+
+[6:43] They're basically a blender slash heater slash not really a food processor, more a blender heater scale. And they have like a stainless steel trough that you do things in. And, um, you know, in the US, we don't really have them very uh, very much because they're not very uh, widely
+
+[6:59] distributed and we use our Vitaprep blenders. And so here's a comment from Brian. The question about thermal mixes the other weeks. Maybe write this email. I absolutely love my thermal mix. I got it almost exclusively to hydrate hydrocoloids, cuts down on dishes, saves me time and not needing to stir. I love it. I also happen to use it as a blender because it is there. And it beats most other blenders out there, which is true, but I still want to
+
+[7:21] vita prep. Brian. I'm going to have to go ahead and say entirely fair. That's an entirely fair set of comments right there. And yes, you do still want to vite a prep because they kick some serious butt. I like myself a Vita Prep. But I think you're right. You know, when we teach hydrocolloids, it can be a pain in the butt sitting there stirring and you can turn a thermal mix on low and just have it stirring
+
+[7:42] Agar from cold and heat without even watching it and it's not going to scorch.
+
+[7:46] So I think, I think you're right. I'm going to take back anything I've ever said, and if you do a lot of hydrocoloid work, I'm going to say that the thermal mix is an awesome thing to have sitting around, especially for heated hydrocoloids, which would be Agar,
+
+[7:59] Carraginen, um, I don't know, you know, uh, Jelan, uh, you know, even anything like that. And so that's a good call, Brian. Thank you. Thank you for the, thank you for the comment. Derek Bocking writes in on gummy bears. He's a blogger, and he was a contestant on Top Chef Canada. Oh, I don't know. I don't know how he did. I hope you did well, Derek. He called in a few weeks ago about making heat resistant beurre blanc, and we were talking then about gum Arabic and
+
+[8:26] Xanthangum mixed the one we get from TIC gums. You know, the one that we use for almost anything for alcoholic drinks. He hasn't gotten it yet. But he did try some of the pointers about making gummy bears, and he asked a pastry chef friend about making gummies, and she said the same thing that we said, which is that you have to make starches out of molds out of cornstarch, and he wants some ideas on these molds. Well, here's the thing. You don't buy, you don't buy a cornstarch mold. What you do is you take cornstarch and you dry it out for a long time in a dry room, usually, you know, a couple of days
+
+[8:56] in like, oh, you could use a dehydrator, I would guess, or like a low oven, really, really dehydrate it. And if you really want to do a bang up job. See, in the days, what they would do back in the days, you know, in the, you know, 1800s, early 1900s, they
+
+[9:10] would, and to this day, I mean, they still do it. But in other words, just old technology, is you would take the starch, and you would use it, and after a
+
+[9:17] while, it would absorb crap out of your candies, and it would become old or dead. I think they called it dead starch dead, I think is what they used. And so, but when you got a new batch of starch, and the starch didn't hold impressions very well. So what they would do is they would take a certain portion of their dead starch and then sift it back in with their brand new starch and do their
+
+[9:36] molds, right? If you don't want to have to do that, I would go to the National Starch Corporation, National
+
+[9:42] Starch, you know, food innovations brand. They make something called new mold, N-U-M-O-U-L-D, new mold, which is cornstarch with a small amount of mineral oil that's been mixed in. So it holds an impression right from the beginning without having to already have starch that has
+
+[9:58] stuff in it to have it really take a mold well. After you get your new starch. Put it in your dehydrator at like 60 Celsius or something for, you know, like 24 to, you know, 48 hours, something like that to really dry it out. Then what you have to do is you build a box, almost like a frame with a bottom in it. Uh, so, you know, like you can use, you know, uh, one by 2s or whatever, uh, and
+
+[10:20] a like Masonite on the bottom, get it nice and flat, put your starch in it, then take a ruler and strike it flat across.
+
+[10:27] And now you have a bed of cornstarch that is, you know, perfectly even and flat, right? Now, you take another piece of, uh, you know, stiff, like masonite or board, and you make, this is how you do the mold. You take the shape that you want it. So you have to have like little, little like, like wooden, waxed or like really smooth. It has to be really smooth or like plaster or whatever, gummy bears or whatever, and they're all on this board, and you press it into your cornstarch mixture, and then you lift it up very carefully,
+
+[10:55] right? And that is how you mold it. So now you have a bed of cornstarch with a bunch of shapes of gummy bears or stars or chickens or whatever in it, and then you deposit your gelatin
+
+[11:08] or whatever, whatever you're going to do. And then, depending on the product, something like gelatin with gummy bears, you would then put it back in your
+
+[11:15] dehydrator for, you know, up to a couple of days at a slow dehydration rate.
+
+[11:22] If you dehydrate too quickly, you case harden the outside and they never they never set properly. So there's a couple of articles you can read on it if you're interested. Uh, one that I would suggest that's pretty interesting is modeling diffusion of moisture during stoving of starch molded confections by MB, um,
+
+[11:40] Sudh Harsan and G.R. Ziegler coming out of Switzerland and the University, uh, Penn State University here in Pennsylvania. So take a look at that article and see whether you get any good information. And with that, I will go to our 1st commercial break, but please call in your
+
+[11:55] questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Cherishes you. I used to describe... All
+
+[12:12] those feelings that I have fighting here for you and someone. I don't know how many times I wish that I had told you, you don't know how many times I wish that I could hold you. You don't know how many times I wish that I could hold you into someone who could cherish me as much as
+
+[12:36] I cherish you. Very shameful word that more than a blog To
+
+[12:51] the hope in my heart each time I real. But I am not gonna be the one to share your dreams that I am not gonna be the one to share your schemes. But I am not gonna be the one to share what seems to be the life that you
+
+[13:13] could cherish as much as I do yours. Oh, I'm beginning to think that man has never found the words that could make you what me. That have the right amount of letters, just the right
+
+[13:34] sound I could make you here. My goodness, Estasia. My goodness, cherish. This game sings that every single day. Every single that I always sing, like, I always sing some, like, horrible variant of it. I never actually sing cherish. I'm always doing it. always something horrible and not cherishing. payback. So Nastasia is paying me back for hearing all of my all of
+
+[13:59] my, uh, different, different, unsavory versions of cherish. All right, call in your questions too. 718-497-2128 718-497-2128. All right. So I had a question in, from, oh, another question from Derek from Derek Bocking about Tarte to Ten. Uh, he's been making a tomato tarte tatin at work and has been falling apart when he demolds it. So it's another molding question. That's interesting. So, uh, Tartatan, you know, for those of you, or, ta, ta, ta, ta. Anyway, so for those of you out there who aren't hip to it, it's, you know, it's the famous French, you know, upside
+
+[14:34] down Apple Doodad, which, you know, you know, apples, cook them. After the apples have been cooked down, have lost a lot of their moisture. You can then also add some then reduce, juice as long as it's really reduced. You put a layer of pastry on the top, you throw it in your oven, you cook it, and when the pastry is done, you pull it out, and then you flip it and unmold
+
+[14:55] it, and there you have it, right? Um, so the, the, he's making one with tomatoes, right? And so, my guess is the reason it's, he's tried a bunch of things to try and keep it holding together. He's been, uh, making a tomato water gel to pour into the molds with a guar and pectin and
+
+[15:13] agar, um, but they've been, they've been not really working as well as he wants. So I need to figure out exactly why it is that it's not working. I wouldn't use Guar, Pectin, and Agar to hold it together. If you really want that sucker to hold together, um, what you're going to have to do is use something like gelam, which is once it sets, it's never going to unset, in which case you would then cook it,
+
+[15:37] uh, then let the thing come down to temperature, right? Uh, come down so that the gelan sets, then heat it slightly again in case there's some like sugars
+
+[15:46] there and then unmold it. But the problem is, is that the real way tarte tin is supposed to unmold, is that the sugars stay liquid, whereas the fruit holds together enough with its own sort of like gelling power impectant and the fact it's been caramelized, and then it unmolds.
+
+[16:02] I think your main problem is that you have just too much water in there. And if you're going to add a gelet, it's, I think it's still going to have your pastry come out kind of soggy. I think your main goal here is going to be to get rid of water. So what I would do. And actually, Melissa Clark from, you know, who writes for the New York Times, or at least used to, I think she still does, right? I have no idea. Anyway, she did an article in 2008 on Tomato Tartin, where she had a very similar problem. So she switched from larger tomatoes to smaller tomatoes and made sure that they were just cooked down a lot before she added the pastry on top.
+
+[16:37] So I would consider using smaller tomatoes, squeezing the seeds out after you peel them, but don't throw that away because that's all the flavor, reducing that 1st before
+
+[16:47] you, while you're cooking the tomatoes, and then add that reduction back and then put the lid on top of it. Just make sure you have enough sugar in there to hold it to form like a thick caramel that's going to hold everything together and make sure that your water
+
+[17:00] contents not too high. If you do that, you should be okay. If you're going to then bolster it with a gel, I would do it with a gel that doesn't melt.
+
+[17:08] And the only ones that don't melt that taste good would be something like gelan. And I would use a low acyl gel in, which is the firm one, the brittle one, because that one is clear, and it's not going to give a cloudy appearance to your to your tarte
+
+[17:24] tatin. So, um, these sound like good suggestions? All right. So hopefully that works out for you. Let us know. Let us know how that goes. Okay. Uh, Sue. I have another series of questions from our good buddy,
+
+[17:39] Ken Ingber, uh, and says that we we neglected to make the joke about uh, Terroir when McGee was on and we were talking about roto vapping dirt. But it's funny you should say that. Um, because that is exactly what, so we're talking about it, uh, a couple weeks ago, someone called in and they had a
+
+[17:57] rotoVap, and Harold McGee was online, and, um, asked what he should be making with a rotoVap, which is a vacuum still. And McGee mentioned that one of the famous early cooking applications of uh, rotary evaporation was the, you know, Roka, the Roka brothers at uh,
+
+[18:12] El Kalar Kenroka, one of the great restaurants in Spain. They put dirt water into a roto app, and then distilled off the essence of dirt. eau de dirt, eau de terre. And then, although I don't know how to say that in Spanish. Do you know? Do you remember? I don't remember You know what Nastasia is? Nastasia is, have you ever seen, have you ever seen Born in East LA? No. You never seen Born in East LA? You remember the song Born in the USA? Yeah. So Cheech Marin did a cover of that call. I was born in East LA and had some success as a video. And then
+
+[18:43] he is he's an American and he lives in of Mexican descent who lives in East LA and doesn't have an ID on him and gets deported to
+
+[18:52] Mexico, and his whole joke is that he doesn't speak Spanish, right? That is Nastasia. So Nastasia could be in East LA. Uh, you know, close to where she's from, not have ID, get deported to Mexico and not speak any
+
+[19:06] Spanish. That's conceivable, right? So you could be living that movie. lost it. You could be living that movie. Yeah. okay. Anyway. It's not that it's a good movie. I enjoy it because I enjoy anything with Cheat, Cheat Marina, but anyway, so how do we get on that? What were we talking about? Roto apps. So, um, Elklar Kenroka, uh, famous dish is dirt water with oysters. And then, uh, uh, but the actual reason that they did that was because they wanted you to experience, no joke,
+
+[19:35] the terroir, uh, like, in a literal sense, the terroir of their region. So they would get dirt from this particular, you know, forest that they used to go and play in as
+
+[19:45] kids, and it would have that moist, uh, that moist, here comes the space eater again. Nastasia turns on. You pretend that I can't smell it. It is not at all. Folks, folks, if I ever wore shorts in my life, which I
+
+[19:59] don't, because I hate them, I would be wearing shorts right now. Anyway, um, Oh, jeez. All right, so they, so they, so they, they wanted you to experience, and in, in Juan Roka's, uh, like his words, and because I asked him about it, uh, years ago, he wants you to experience the feeling he had as a child right after the rain in the morning when you go out in the forest and you get that
+
+[20:22] smell mixed with, uh, you know, like the local oysters that they can also get by. So literal terroir was the reason behind that that dish. Okay, uh, so here's uh, Ken's question on uh,
+
+[20:35] onions and other things and mireplos and sauces. I was making a veggie intensive tomato sauce for a weeknight meal, uh, mushrooms, onion, carrots, uh, carrots, green peppers and garlic. But several questions came to mind. And he hopes that they are of general interest. Well, let's see. Uh, uh, he said, maybe I need a primer on onion. Some recipes talk about sautéing onions for 5 to 8 minutes. My onions hardly change at all in such a short period of time. And if he jacks up the heat, he singes the edges of the onions, but don't really accomplish much else. If his goal is to soften the onions, one in an hour and a half and tomato sauce, do that. And if my goal is to caramelize, caramelize the onions, aren't we talking about a much longer period of time than any home
+
+[21:13] cooked spends on onions for tomato sauce? And so the question is, what is a softened onion? Okay. It's an interesting question. So there are a bunch of things that are going on. Um, and he's going to ask about because because I pre-read the questions. I don't want anyone out there to pretend that I haven't read the questions before they come
+
+[21:28] on and I just know all the crap off the top of my head, although I really do. Anyway, the book to get on this whole subject of onions, and I know we've and garlic. but onions as well. And I know that I've mentioned this book on the show before, but it's really kind of a one of
+
+[21:42] a kind thing is garlic and other alliums, the lore and the science. That's a good title, right? By Eric Block. And it's one of the only kind of books on food that I own that has a preface written by a Nobel laureate. And this book was brought to my attention, as most other good things are, by Harold McGee. And while this book is very highly technical and huge chunks of it, are only going to be of use to trained organic chemists.
+
+[22:11] It also has a bunch of sections on cooking that talk about interesting things and also about things like
+
+[22:18] here, chapter 2 is all things allium, alliums, which, you know, onions, garlic leaks, alliums in literature, the arts and culture. So it's really an all-around book, and it's one of those books that you kind of need to have in
+
+[22:30] your in your house, just so you can say that you have, like, it's not even
+
+[22:35] that. mean, it's expansive. I'm not going to say it's cheap. I don't have the price here. I would guess it's like 50 bucks or some crap like that. But for 50 bucks, you have like the world's repository of knowledge onions. For instance, the chapter 6.4 on page 320 is use of onion as an insect repellent by
+
+[22:54] cappuccin monkeys. How ballsy is that? I have this in my house, and you don't. Don't you feel less, less good that you don't have a book that you can flip open and learn about the use of onion as an insect repellent by
+
+[23:06] Capuccin monkeys? Anyway, um, So, so get this book, and it describes in detail, uh, what's going on in onions and
+
+[23:15] garlic and leaks, uh, and so forth when they are being cut when they are sitting around, when they are being
+
+[23:23] cooked, uh, at different rates and describes all the different reactions that are taking place, and therefore gives you an insight into what's going on?
+
+[23:31] The one unfortunate thing that they don't cover in here is, and
+
+[23:35] maybe I don't know this guy, Eric Block, but maybe I'll call him because they don't go into what happened specifically with pressure cooking, which is one of the reasons I bought the book because I'm very interested in pressure cooking alliums, garlic and onion and things like
+
+[23:47] that. It's one of our main, it's one of our main things that we
+
+[23:51] do is pressure cooked things like garlic and onions. Anyway, so buy that book. But here's the thing. The flavor of onions is changed by heat, and the arresting of further production of flavor in the onions is arrested by heat well before the onions themselves start to soften because you're breaking down the tissue,
+
+[24:11] okay? So there's the flavor development, and the flavor changing that the heat is providing. That is going on at the same time that you're heating, and then once you get above
+
+[24:21] 85C for an extended period of time, where you break down the pectins and the hemicellulos and actually soften the onion. So if you're making a sauce and your goal is to, uh, basically, uh, you know, provide a certain type of onion flavor that happens relatively quickly in cooking, then it's not
+
+[24:38] necessarily not necessary to get them all the way soft as long as you get them up to a heat where you've deactivated the enzymes and you've kind of, I
+
+[24:45] guess, stabilize the flavor somewhat. Then the cooking in the sauce will take you the rest of the way in terms of making the onions soft, right? Assuming you cook it long enough. It actually takes a long time in a thick tomato sauce to have onions go soft because the
+
+[24:58] water's not as available as it would be if you were cooking it in water. And that's also, frankly, another thing you could do. If you're not getting high heat flavors, you could just put the onions in with wine or whatever, flash them off so that they're almost
+
+[25:10] boiled and that'll get what you want. If you're not providing any color. Okay. But, uh, if, and if you want that deep caramelized uh, flavor where you're actually altering the onion, the, uh, the sugars in the onions, uh, then you need to cook at a lower heat so that it doesn't scorch because when you scorch the sugars, the flavor turns different and most of us say worse, unless you're burning the onion to make
+
+[25:33] that, to darken up like a stock, most of us don't want that acrid burnt flavor. So then you need a lower heat for a longer period of time to get those kind of caramelized
+
+[25:44] notes. And you can do anything in between, but you're obtaining different flavors. So everything depends. As for the other ingredients, so then after
+
+[25:55] that, he says, he says, admittedly, I always cook onions in bulk. So I acknowledge that the volume of onions I cook will increase the time for any kind of
+
+[26:04] sauteing, but he thinks his point stands. That's true, especially if you cook in bulk, you're going to basically be steaming the onions, breaking down the tissue, and then only after they've been steamed and broken
+
+[26:14] down, Are you really going to get those kind of flavors and, and, but you know, honestly, it's difficult to do a good onion. If you're going to make like an onion tart, let's say. It's very difficult to do it in under half hour, I'd say, when you say nastasia, something like that. And I guess he has the same question for Mirepoix, which would be like, you know, the classic like onions or onions or leeks, carrots and celery, sofrito, which I assuming means a Spanish version, which would be, uh, um, garlic, onions, and, uh,
+
+[26:43] tomatoes or the, the holy trinity of Creole cooking, which I guess is onions, bell peppers, and celery. I think it depends, like, celery. I don't think you're getting that much out of celery in the saute, except for you're densifying it by sauteing it and have the structure break down before it's been in a liquid, right? Same thing goes. I mean, bell peppers, I don't think you're getting that much out of except for you're getting some brown flavors off of the off of the meat of it, but I don't think you're winning that
+
+[27:08] much. Carrots have a lot of sugar in them. So you could be getting some caramelizing effect out of the carrots, depending on how you treat them, but I don't cook a mirepoix long enough to get those kind of flavors in my carrots, so I don't really think that's
+
+[27:19] gonna happen. Um, he then says more generally, which of the veggies really ought to be sauteed before adding to a sauce. For example, mushrooms, they're better sauteed for the texture, but will they retain the intensified flavor after they've been in tomato sauce a long
+
+[27:32] time to say, yes, especially on something like a mushroom. If you're cooking it in a sauce, I think the liquid's going to diffuse into the mushroom because if mushrooms are basically a porous sponge. So if you cook the mushroom by itself and then let it shrink down, then it becomes a denser item that's not
+
+[27:47] going to absorb as much liquid. And so I think you'll get a fundamentally different, denseer, more intense result if you sauté your mushrooms beforehand. Anyway, um, and then as regards garlic, uh, I think it's a good idea to add your
+
+[27:59] garlic, uh, much later, uh, when you're sautéing onions, because, uh, garlic does have a tendency to scorch very readily and turn extremely acrid.
+
+[28:08] The flip side of that is if you're cooking garlic in water in a pressure cooker, in which case
+
+[28:12] it doesn't matter when you add it because you're pressure cooking the whole dang thing. All right, let's go to one more break. Calling all of your questions. If you have any questions, you people out there. 2718-497-2128 at 718-497-2128 cookie issues.
+
+[28:45] With my child, girl. I feel the wreck without my little trying to burn. I hear her heart beating. Loud as thunder Soully stars crushing. Oh, my little channel girl. We've got a little, little child, girl. Oh, here, heart's speaking. Love is thunder. I saw this
+
+[29:34] star's crushing down. I've been touching like a... I wonder, look at nothing trying to go, girl. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Tune in to Greenhorn Radio hosted by Severin von Sharner Fleming every Thursday at 2 p.m. Greenhorn radio is radio 4 young farmers by young farmers. Helmed by acclaimed activist, farmer, and documentarian Severn Fleming. Greenhorn radio is a weekly phone interview session surveying America's cutting edge under 40 farmers. Again, that's every Thursday at 2 PM on the Heritage Radio Network. That is a weird Bowie song you chose. I feel like Marlon Brando, when I look at my little China girl. What a weird song. Weird song. You know which one I forgot that we should have played? Was it? was the abracadabra. That's next. Oh, yeah. Okay, so next week, for one of our break musics, we're going to play Steve Miller's
+
+[30:43] Abracadabra. Yeah. Steve Miller's song. Yeah, unless someone out there in internet land can come up with a worse Steve Miller song to play a more horrid, abysmal,
+
+[30:56] like depth of hell. Give him the story, Dave, of how they asked him to create a song. Well, look, so our theory, our theory is, but our theory is, is that, you know, they needed to come out with it with a new album to go on tour so that they can go on tour and play all of their older, really good
+
+[31:11] songs. And they come into the exec and like he's like, hey, it's Abracadabra. I'm gonna reach out and grab you. That's the song. And they're like, yeah, that's funny, Steve. Yeah, what's the real song? He's like, no. That's it. Anyway. So next week, unless one of you can come up with a worse Steve Miller song that's going on the list, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's gonna come up with the worst song. I mean, you could look at any B side, anything. And yet they still play it at every crazy dance. It's on the radio, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Abracadabra. Jack, can you think of a worst Steve Miller song? He's shaking his head down. Yeah, no. anyway. Okay. I got a question on vodka sauce. What do you say about vodka sauce? In your view, is the purpose of vodka, purely because the alcohol A released a certain flavor compounds, and then B boils off, or is there some residual alcohol in the sauce that is itself a
+
+[32:02] benefit? Am I correct in that the flavors will be released by wine as well, but unlike vodka, the wine will in
+
+[32:07] part, a beneficial flavor of its own, even after the alcohol boils off? Okay, well, couple of things. One, alcohol never truly boils off. I mean, you lose a bunch of it, that's true. But it never truly boils off. And in fact, uh, I think it's, uh, it's been a while since I've researched this. And I myself have never done a side-by-side taste test of the same exact sauce, prepare the same exact way, except for in
+
+[32:33] one, you add a bit of water, and then one, you add vodka, and then correct them for the same level of final reduction at the end of the sauce, right?
+
+[32:43] It's possible to do it, and then doing a side-by-side blind tasting. I've never done it. Do you know anyone that's done that? No. I don't either. I mean, it was an interesting test. I don't really have the time to run it right now, but it would be a very interesting test to run. If someone else is yeah, Nastasia loves pasta. If anyone in the greater New York area wants to run that side by side test and invite us, we'll come, right? Yeah, we'll come. Anyway, but I think that the effect of vodka sauce is supposed to be from residual alcohol that's left there that has relatively little flavor in
+
+[33:16] it, that vodka. And so it would be the volatilization of the aroma compounds in the residual alcohol that I think is providing some of the effect, although the residual alcohol content is still quite
+
+[33:29] low. So even if you don't drink alcohol, I don't really think it's a problem, but it really is true that not all alcohol boils off. We did have to run a test on that a number of years ago because Nil's got called, I forget who it was, some TV show, made him do it, and we had to do a bunch of research on it, but there's still quite
+
+[33:47] a, I know what we did. We flambade alcohol straight, and then did alcohol and water tests without a lot of complicating effects like sugar and tomato sauce, and then
+
+[33:57] did uh, um, then did refractometer readings of the result to see what the residual crap was left in it.
+
+[34:03] And in fact, there was residual alcohol content. I don't remember what the numbers were, though. Do you? You were there for that, were they? It was before you were there? Okay. And speaking of alcohol, we have a question in, non-alcoholic cocktails from Christian Swanpole. You think I'm pronouncing that, right? Swanpole. Hmm, Swanpol. Also from New Zealand. This is a new, you know what? We need to get our butts on to New Zealand. First of all, do you like lamb? You better like lamb. I just, Julie's there. I wanna go there for that. Yeah, but do you enjoy eating lamb? All right, so you don't hate lamb. No, I don't hate lamb. All right, good. Lamb is some delicious stuff. Gotta go to, you know, we, in New York, we get a whole bunch of New Zealand land, but I wonder whether they keep the best products for themselves.
+
+[34:45] What do you think? You think so? wouldn't you? Well, but the thing is, like, I'll eat lamb when I'm there, of course, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna basically, like, eat New Zealand, uh, grapefruits till, like, plots. I'm just gonna eat Porman oranges until my body explodes. No, you can't eat grapefruit when you're on Xanax. I did. There's a, so the, in grapefruit, there is, and the perceived, the literature says that
+
+[35:10] the stuff that's in grapefruit that means that you can't have it when you're on any form of statin or anything like that, there's a bunch of drugs that
+
+[35:17] interacts with is a chemical called bergamotin. This is what I've been led to believe. Uh, and uh, so I talked uh, for with uh, Ken Kershenbaum at NYU a number of years ago, seeing whether we could maybe get rid of the
+
+[35:30] Bergamot, and I think since then someone has uh, postulated a way
+
+[35:34] to, to, to do it. I think I saw some patent literature recently on someone basically getting the bergamoten out of grapefruit juice. But my question, and no one's, as far as I can tell, do the research on it, is Bergamoten is one of the, and think about the
+
+[35:47] name Bergamoten, Bergamot, right? And Bergamot is the classic flavoring in Earl
+
+[35:52] Grey T. And so my and my question is, is Earl Gray T not okay to have, are there significant levels of bergamotin
+
+[36:03] in Earl Gray T such that you shouldn't have it when you're on statins or other medications that are affected by
+
+[36:10] it? Now, the truth of the matter is, is that, um, what happens is, is when you, when you take grapefruit when you're on these medications, it changes the, uh, your response to dose, right?
+
+[36:21] So I think some medications, it can increase the
+
+[36:25] response and some medications, it can decrease the response. But theoretically, if you have the same amount in your system all the time, they can correct for the fact that you are
+
+[36:34] ingesting grapefruit, but grapefruit isn't something that you typically ingest at a constant rate every day. So maybe like Earl Gray tea drinkers. Maybe they drink it at a constant enough rate that it's not a problem. Maybe it's not a problem at all. I'd love if anyone out there has any information on bergamotin levels and statins and bergamotin levels
+
+[36:55] in Earl Grey T because it's something I've never seen discussed. No doctors ever tell you. They tell you, hey, stay away from the grapefruit, but they never say, hey, stay away from the old gray tea. And a lot of people like
+
+[37:03] old gray tea, right? Do you like girl gray tea? I like rogue grade tea. I don't drink it, but I like it. Anyway, how the hell do we get on that? Oh, New Zealand. Man, we man, we go on tangents, right? Man, Jesus. You know, I got some serious issues. Like, like, yesterday I was, I was at this talk for the, for the experimental cuisine collective. And, um, someone asked a question in the audience because, uh, Maxine uh, Maxine
+
+[37:30] Delay from the, um, from the, uh, the modernist cuisine book, you know, along with Chris Young and Nathan Mirvold. He was there, along with Grant, and they were giving, they were basically talking about the book. And actually giving us some food, some really delicious food from the book they served out. Yeah, they served out the rare beef jus, which is one of the famous dishes in the book now or becoming famous dishes in the book, where they make
+
+[37:51] a beef jus, at a very low temperature, like 52 Celsius, which is as low as you can go and be bacterially safe,
+
+[37:59] basically, or 53. I forget, somewhere in there, in that range. And they serve it red, and I had it at, you know, at the kitchen lab
+
+[38:06] when right before the book was released, when I flew out to Seattle. But, um, I had it this time cold. They served it cold for the summertime, and I think it was actually even better cold. It's this bright red color. Anyway, and they served, you know, some other stuff. interesting stuff, great, you know, great stuff. And someone asked a question. So, you know, is there anything else to know or have we figured everything out? And I was like, what? That's really weird, right? You know, I was like, we haven't even asked all the right questions yet. And I was thinking back to Roy Fong, the tea guy that we met from the Imperial Tea Garden
+
+[38:39] in San Francisco. And, you know, I was like, you know, look, you know, you could spend your whole life studying, you know, like a single type of tea and uh, and
+
+[38:50] not, not really know, know everything. Uh, anyway, again. And so, but then I was like, then I, when I, when I, when I said that, as soon as I said that, I didn't add this, I was like, but me personally, I'm way too scattered to spend my life, like, which is why, like, you know, in a way,
+
+[39:07] like, I love all this, like, kind of generalist work that we do because, like I don't, I'm too scattered and I go off on too many tangents to study, uh, just one thing forever. What do you think? Yeah, no, that's true. I actually was talking about that last night with someone. Yeah. Yeah. And how you can't, yeah. Even though you weren't at the discussion, hearing me say that because you were high on Xanax? Well, I was just talking. Yeah. To yourself. Was there someone there? were you hallucinating them? Yeah, yeah, it was a hallucination. Okay. So, uh, Christian asked, uh, I'd like to start by saying he loves the show. Thank you. Keep up the good work. We will try to. I heard last week that you were doing non-alcoholic drinks for a party. I have to do the same thing for a party of my own. Unfortunately, I don't have awesome things like road of apps, but was wondering if you have any pointers or ideas. I don't really have any experience with any form of cocktail, alcoholic or non-alcoholic, and he knows that I'm somewhat of an expert in this respect. Well, we hope we hope anyway, right? So he thought he might have something interesting for him. Thanks for your time. Christian Swanpole from New Zealand. Okay, so, uh, here's the thing. Here's my feelings on non-alcoholic cocktails. If you serve something non-alcoholic, I would go for something that is carbonated because, uh, it's just more festive. If you serve something that's not carbonated, it just seems to me to be more like juice.
+
+[40:23] What do you think, Nastasia? I mean, do you think... A Virgin Mary? Virgin Mary is a good cocktail. Yeah, yeah, so Virgin Mary is good. So, I mean, a traditional Virgin Mary, but depends on what time of day. I mean you don't want that in the evening. I'll tell you what we did. We took coriander seed. We lightly ground coriander seed. Then we cooked it in simple syrup, so one to one sugar and water. Then we let it cool. We kept on tasting it while it was going. If you cook coriander seed too long, it becomes too much like
+
+[40:56] a heavy spice note and you lose some of the citrusy notes, we used untoasted coriander seed. Uh, then keep, uh, we used quite a bit actually. Keep tasting it. And then when you feel it's where you want, strain it out. Okay? Then take something with a lot of spice in it that has a lot of
+
+[41:13] heat, but not very vegetal. We use to Thai chilies. They very hot, so we didn't have that much. Make a separate simple syrup with a Thai chilies, right? Then take your coriander syrup, put a pinch of salt in it. Then, um, then add the Thai chili because the coriander syrup is very nice, but it lacks something in the back end in the middle of the
+
+[41:31] palate. You want to add a little bit of that Thai chili syrup to it, not enough to make it spicy, just enough to
+
+[41:37] fill up the back of your throat a little bit like a ginger ale. Uh, and then you want to add uh, malic acid and citric acid, if you don't have that stuff. Two parts citric, one part malic. And that's going to add some limey flavor to it. If you don't have that, you could just bite the bullet and use real limes, but the problem is with real limes, unless you follow our clarification directions on the blog, www.cookingissues.com, you're going to have issues with
+
+[42:02] foaming that are going to cause problems, even if you strain it. And that's a really good syrup to have at a party and you can just pour seltzer water on top of that and it's delicious, right? You like that one, right? Or you could clarify any number of juices and make nice light cocktails with clarified juices, but I
+
+[42:19] just, I tend to think that, that if you really want people to think you're doing something for them that's non-alcoholic, get some sort of a carbonation
+
+[42:26] rig. And carbonation rigs are fairly cheap nowadays. I don't think we ever posted on getting one, but they're fairly easy to get. And carbonation in general, you can do in an ISI rig or something like that. So the ones we did, we did a coriander soda, like the one I told you, we then did, we made clarified raspberry juice and clarified strawberry juice,
+
+[42:44] you know, we used a centrifuge, but you don't need it. You can use a lot of different techniques. Hell, you can even buy the juice. And then carbonate it. Just remember when you're working with cocktails that you're going to want to balance, when you're tasting them, especially because there's no alcohol there. They're going to tend to lack something in kind of the mid-palate and in the back of your throat. So you're going to want to add, like, spice is very good to add, like, in the form of that Thai chili syrup that I'm talking about, just to round it out, not allowed to make it spicy.
+
+[43:15] Don't forget to add a pinch of salt, which is gonna round out all the flavors, especially fruit flavors, not enough to make it salty, but just a little
+
+[43:21] bit. And it's going to be, you know, balancing kind of fruity, acid and
+
+[43:26] aromatics. I think is where you're going to want to go to. So wait, is that good advice or no? good, yeah. And then, of course, if it's sometime in the morning, Virgin Marys are great. There's tomato juice and, you know, like whatever forms of spicy stuff that you want in. If you want to make tomato water, that's a little more intensive, and I recommend buying a centrifuge, just kidding. Anyway, this has been cooking issues, come back and see us next week, every Tuesday, cooking issues.
+
+[43:55] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[44:11] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[44:28] This is Katie Kiefer with behind the scenes food news for the week of May 11th. One of the most exciting things that I found in my trolling of trade blogs this week was the announcement of a new initiative called Agri, that's capital AG, small
+
+[44:44] REE. So it's sort of agriculture and green, I suppose, is the idea behind that. And the co-chairs include Dan Glickman, who is a former secretary of the USDA under Clinton, Gary Hirschberg, who is the president and CEO of
+
+[44:59] Stony Field Farm, Jim Moseley, who is a former deputy secretary at the USDA under George Bush, and Emmy Simmons, a former assistant administrator for economic growth agriculture and trade at the US Agency for International Development.
+
+[45:13] So this is kind of a mixed bag of political viewpoints here, which is what made me really sit up and take notice. It's funded by all the usual suspects like the Gates Foundation, the Ford Foundation, et cetera. But leading off in their 1st meeting, Glickman stressed the importance of involving all stakeholders and seeking common ground in addressing the need to feed a growing global
+
+[45:37] population, and doing so in ways that are environmentally, economically, and socially sustainable. And the 8 foundations that are backing, agree, he notes, agreed to set aside their political differences, as did the individual
+
+[45:52] co-chairs to develop research-based long-term solutions and strategies.
+
+[45:57] I think this is a gigantic step in the right direction. I'm hoping that these guys will have a huge impact on the farm bill, which will be coming up again in 2012. So let's keep an eye on Agri. If you want to read more about them and what they're doing and their news. They do have a website. It's www.food and agpolicy.org. This has been Katie Kiefer with behind the scenes food news. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. In the next few weeks, Heritage Foods USA will be offering an interesting variety of amazing products ranging from top quality seafood to their famous pork cuts. At the end of May, the heritage team will go up to Maine to harvest fresh lobster with sustainable lobstermen. These delicious lobster are a perfect way to kick off the summer season. In the pork compartment, Heritage Foods USA will offer the maple cured, smoked, boneless heritage ham at an unbeatable price. His offer won't last long, so get them while you can. Place your order today at heritagefoodsusa.com or call 718-389-0985.
+
+[47:03] That's 718-389-0985 to place your order with Andrea or Ashley. And don't forget to sign up for the email list and to check them on Facebook and Twitter to get in on their new products,
+
+[47:15] deals, and offers from Heritage Foods USA.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I am Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you approximately from 12 to 1245 every Tuesday here in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer
+
+[0:19] Lopez, cooking issues, as always. She's the Hammer. How you doing, Nastasia? I'm fine, how are you? Haven't seen you. How was your holiday weekend? It was good. Yeah? Uh-huh. I went to Fire Island. Oh, nice. was that? Fine. Did you get poison ivy? Nope. Fire Island is a, they should light, but I'm not going to say is it. Obviously, they should not lightly fires there, but they should get rid of this, some of that poison ivy. The worst case poison ivy I think I've ever had, I had in Far Island. In fact, the doctor said it was the worst case of poison ivy that he had seen in at least 5 or 6 years of practice. My entire arms swelled up. I looked like the Incredible Hulk was bright red instead of green. It looked like I had one giant hulk arm, but it was instead of like muscle. It was a giant sack of water. Well, because they had these blueberries, you see, that are growing all on Fire Island. I picked all these delicious blueberries, and luckily was able to make possibly the most delicious blueberry pie I've ever made before my arm swelled up into a giant balloon. So I guess it was worth it. What do you think? I don't know. Did everybody enjoy it? Oh, they loved it. There you go. That was a long time ago. That was in 2001. Long time ago. That's the last time I was that far island. They still have deer whose fur being eaten off by mange. There was one that was following me. It was really freaked out. Yeah, but was it all gross looking? I didn't, I walked the other way. I didn't look at it. It was at night. Um, yeah. Well, look during the day there. mangy and disgusting. Vermin. Anyway, Colin, all of your cooking related questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 coming to you live from Bushwick today. So today is, here's some like, like an airplane in the background? Yeah, it's weird. Today is the last of my week-long, my days of week-long raw vegan diet. I have been on a raw vegan diet since Tuesday of last week. Tuesday right after we finished the low temperature sous vide class. So we put ourselves into a meat coma, in the low temp sous vide class, eating like a bazillion short ribs, and then right after, I went on raw vegan, and, you know, because for those of you that haven't heard, I made a bet on this radio show that no one could produce a raw vegan chocolate bar that I would even think tasted remotely of chocolate.
+
+[2:33] Um, Because frankly, I figured it's impossible because you have to roast chocolate, you see. chocolate beans, right? First of all, the, you know, the, the, you know, the cacao, right? It comes down, it's ferments. So often right there in the fermentation process. It gets above the arbitrary number of 118 or whatever you're
+
+[2:52] going to choose for something Fahrenheit or something to be raw. Now, it's kind of odd that you could possibly overcome
+
+[3:00] what makes it raw during a fermentation process. It's the raw thing is supposed to keep the enzymes alive and it's actually life, but, you know, bacteria and fermentation taking place that is causing this temperature rise. But we'll leave that aside. So often the temperature will go above 118 right there, but that can be controlled. But then there's a step of roasting of chocolate. Where it's roasted and that's where a lot of the characteristic flavors are developed. So I'm like, well, you can't do that. So, hey, what the heck? you can't have, you know, real raw chocolate. not going tastes like chocolate because crap ain't been roasted. So our former intern, Grace, brings me this stuff, fine and raw chocolate, and I
+
+[3:32] tasted it, and I had to agree that, although it was not, you know, anywhere near my favorite
+
+[3:36] chocolate, or, you know, even a chocolate that I would choose to eat on a normal basis, this texture was wrong, et cetera, et
+
+[3:43] cetera. It was a little soft, you remember the chocolate, right? It still tasted like chocolate, though. I mean, you could eat it. wasn't good. I mean, I could eat it, though. In other words, like, I felt like I lost a bet. So then the problem was now I can't welch. Like, it's impossible for me to well, just, like, you know, not an acceptable situation. So I had to do it. The problem was finding a one week period where I wasn't obliged to do a demonstration where I had to cook. And so this last week, right after that, uh, right after the sous vide class was the only week we had where that was possible. So I've been raw vegan for a week and I break my raw vegan fast. Uh, tonight when I land in Austin, Texas, and I think I'm going to eat an entire cow when I get there. You know, actually, it's not the meat that I miss the most. It's like bread. And like starch. I mean, think about it. No rice, no bread, no starch. Um, you know, anyway. So I'll share before we get into the questions. Maybe I'll share a little bit of the, although I'm going to post on it. Hopefully today or tomorrow. I'm going to share a little bit of the raw vegan thing. So the whole reason that you're supposed to eat raw vegan. You know, if you believe in this sort of thing, is that not cooking things
+
+[4:50] makes keeps the enzymes alive. The food's alive and their food's alive, therefore it's more healthy for you. The vegan argument is an argument against animal proteins and either for moral reasons and also for health reasons. So it's a combination of like moral and health reasons. Now, here's here's the thing. I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. Like, 1st of all, you make your own enzymes. You make your own enzymes. We make our own enzymes. You know what I'm saying? Like, you produce your own enzymes. I don't see where consuming something whose enzymes are preserved is necessarily going to be
+
+[5:21] that much more beneficial in general, right? Now, even assuming that you need to consume all sorts of raw enzymes, even if enzymes are good for you, even if they are necessary,
+
+[5:30] right? There's nothing to say that every scrap of food that you consume has to be teeming with these enzymes, right? Also, there's plenty of things that aren't heated, that don't have enzymes in them. You know what I mean? Like, it has to have enzymes. It has to be like, you know, a living thing. So like why your salt needs to be particularly raw, which they care about. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't understand. And why every last damn thing, because it's been shifted
+
+[5:54] from, the enzymes are good, to cook foods are toxic. Like, that's where the shift is taking place. Another thing that I don't believe. So let me just say this before I even get started. Um, there are some people who who think, by the way, eating raw vegan, I know I'm not supposed to make it seem post-apocalyptic, but it is a hardship.
+
+[6:10] It is a huge hardship for someone who doesn't normally do it. You know what I mean? Especially if you have 2 incredibly picky kids. Now, I wasn't able to cook or prepare a raw vegan for the kids because they weren't having it. They had like one or 2 nights of raw vegan. Jen, my wife, sometimes went into the raw vegan with me, but I, you know, yesterday I made her hamburgers while I ate raw vegan. I ended up actually like, you know, okay, well, I'll get into it. One, they say that you get this, that you get more energy when you're eating raw vegan. I felt, I am what we call a very energetic non-athletic guy, right? I have a lot of energy, but I'm not athletic. Uh, and I felt like I got hit over the head with a hammer with this diet because I lost
+
+[6:51] all, I lost all of my energy. I was passing out tired at night. I was kind of grumpy during the day now. I talked to someone. like, well, you need to eat it for a couple of weeks to get the effect. Well, if I need to eat it for a couple of weeks, are you sure you're not just going into some sort of starvation euphoria and thinking you have more energy,
+
+[7:07] right? I mean, it is true. You do lose weight on this diet, right? I did lose some weight on this diet, but, you know, and for that, it's probably effective. If your only goal is to lose weight, your choices are so constricted and your body's ability to process what's going on more on that later. Like your body's ability to process what's going on is sufficiently reduced, that you will, I mean, at least in the one week period, who knows if you maintain it for a long
+
+[7:30] time, lose a lot of weight. I also feel like I've lost a lot of muscle mass. I don't know that I have less energy, it's just because I have less energy, but I feel significantly weaker than I did physically weaker than I did a
+
+[7:42] week ago. So, you know, I consumed what I consider to be a fairly healthy
+
+[7:47] all-around diet based on the diet, the dietetic principle of eat everything in moderation. I prepare most of my own food or eat good food. So, uh, and you know, I think a hamburger is healthy, right? And that's my feeling. So this is not a diet that I would say that you should go on for, I don't believe it's healthier. That's what I'm saying, than my diet that I normally have. It's not just that it's a hardship. I don't believe it's healthier. Even if it were easy to do, I would not do it by choice. Right? So that's that's said. Um, You are going to get in a very good relationship with your toilet if you follow this
+
+[8:24] diet. Let me just tell you, this stuff flies through you on this diet. You can't, like, there's no getting around it. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's crazy. And it's also extremely expensive. Now, it doesn't matter, like, this is not an argument against it, but it doesn't seem to me to be, like,
+
+[8:39] a, This is not an argument against it, but it's not an argument for a diet for the people. Everything costs 8 bucks. like everything. Like a little thing of dip, 8 bucks, a little thing of crackers, 8 bucks. Anything that's raw vegan, go to the store, look at it. Look at what it costs. 8 bucks. You know what I mean? Like maybe you can get like a little tiny bar, snack of something that's less, but unless you are just straight up consuming raw fruits and
+
+[9:03] vegetables. And by the way, if you eat nothing but raw fruits in the morning, you crash, you get a sugar
+
+[9:08] hind, you crash like a mother. You know what I mean? It's just like you're, and, and, you know, probably a little rambling today because I'm still in the raw, in the raw vegan mode. I had uh, one good meal at pure food and wine,
+
+[9:19] sour melon guys' restaurant. I called her because I was like, guys, can't deal with this anymore. I have to have someone else do this for me. I went in, but their meals are extremely, extremely labor intensive. You know, I had had these high hopes that I was going to be able to make a lot of really interesting
+
+[9:30] stuff raw vegan and my time just ran out and I had to do it anyway. So my rotary evaporators packed up, so I couldn't do any low temperature,
+
+[9:38] you know, brand easy that, you know, are raw vegan, even though they're delicious. I've had them before. I know they're good. I didn't get to make the, you know, the raw vegan black sapote ice cream that I wanted to get. But, but all of these things are very, very, they're very, um, they're esoteric. You know what I mean? would be hard to do this in the real life. What you end up actually eating is a boatload of pineapple, like blueberries, dried fruits, and then avocado, tomato,
+
+[10:03] sauerkraut salads for dinner. I mean, and, and, and, you know, uh, I feel I, the whole week I've been feeling like, um, I don't know, like, I, like, I'm just kind of trudging along, waiting for it to be over. Like, you know, I'm not I'm not myself. So I'm glad I did it. I have the experience of it. It's not for me. I don't necessarily think that I'd recommend it to anyone. I think it's incredibly expensive unless you are very have a lot of time to plan to do it. So that has been my raw food experience. What do you think, Nastasia? I think that's too bad Dave. Well have I been incredibly mean? I only dealt one day with you. This is the 2nd day. Was that was I mean? Yeah, you were you were an asshole. You're not allowed to say that on the air. That's, you know, this is a family program. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, Nastasi says one thing comes out and it's, and it's a curse word. Anyway, why don't we go to our 1st commercial break and we'll come back. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[11:13] If I heat up, I can't cool down With the drop is spinning round and round, round and
+
+[11:25] round, it goes. Where it stops and nobody knows. Every time you call my name. I heat up like a burning plane. Burning flame, full of desire. Cause me, baby, let the fire get higher. Heritage Radio Network is about to celebrate the 100th episode of the main course with Patrick Martins and Katie Kiefer. The main course is welcome talent that ranges from Temple Grandon on animal handling to Eric Asimov, the New York Times wine critic, chefs and farmers, distributors, and
+
+[12:02] restauranteurs. Everyone who is involved in the food industry gets to put their ¢2 in on how and why we eat what we eat. Check out the archives for more information on fast... Check out the archives for more information on the fascinating roster of guests that have graced the table for the main course, and be sure to tune into the 100th episode Sunday, June 6th, at noon on the Heritage
+
+[12:23] Radio Network. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, calling all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So, Nastasia, we have a column coming out in Eater blog tomorrow, supposedly. And, uh, and that, uh, that's going to basically be the same as the, as the radio show, just in uh, blog format, separate from the cooking issues blog, which, you know, we, I hope
+
+[12:49] to get my my raw vegan post up soon, along with all the other 15 posts that I have in back,
+
+[12:54] log that I haven't written. But I am now on with Eater, we're going to do, I think, weekly where we answer questions. So some of these questions that I've gotten by email, I might, if I don't have time on the radio show, I might defer and answer them on the eater blog. And, of course, you can put your questions to the eater blog now instead of having to email Nastasia and we'll get emailed to me. Some of them will get answered on the air, and some of them will get answered on the eater blog. What do you think, Mustasia? Yeah. So we're thinking of calling it, uh, what we're, what we're calling it? issues cooking with Dave? Issues, issues cooking with Dave? that's nice Yeah, nice. You like that issue's cooking with Dave? Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay. Marty, you wrote in. He says, he doesn't deep fry that often. I'm sorry, Marty. you should deep fry more often. I don't deep fry that often. I'm looking for ways to preserve my fry oil. Online. I saw some articles about rosemary extract being an effective antioxidant, especially a product called Inelens 4. Do I have any experience with this product? I couldn't find a way to obtain any, and do you know if it's available to consumers through any sort of
+
+[13:52] hippie dippy health food store? No, I hadn't heard of that, in fact. But I did look it up. And Rose, you know, it's basically, that's the kind of trade name, and I don't know where you can, I don't know where you can get it, but the actual thing that it's in rosemary that's being used as an antioxidant is, I'm going to pronounce it incorrectly here is
+
+[14:13] carnosic acid, right? So carnostic acid is derived from rosemary, there's a large amount in it. I assume it's in any kind of rosemary oil or extract that you can purchase on, you know, in Whole Foods or any one of those other
+
+[14:27] stores. The problem is, is that the one that they use is an antioxidant and oil. And apparently it is a fairly effective antioxidant to prevent rancidity. Um, The problem with it is, is that they deodorize it. completely deodorize it. So it no longer smells like rosemary when they when they add it. So if you add it, and they're adding it in fairly small amounts. I don't know what percentage of rosemary extract that you buy in a store is going to have, you know, is going to
+
+[14:51] be the, you know, the actual antioxidant, but, um, you know, it's in the parts per million kind of range. The question that I wasn't able to answer, it definitely stops rancidity development and storage, right? Uh, you know, the breakdown of the uh, of the, you know, into free fatty acids on storage. But I haven't been able to find that much information yet on the frying temperatures, whether or not it basically withstands frying temperatures and will actually help you at those
+
+[15:16] temperatures, prevent oxidation breakdown, uh, you know, of the of the lipids, those kind of temperatures. But it's very interesting. So it might be fun to drop. And it's also, by the way, in sage, not just in rosemary, and there's lots of antioxidants in sage and rosemary, but it might be interesting to go to Whole Foods, buy some
+
+[15:32] in this rosemary oil, put a couple drops in, and then do a side by side, kind of temperature abuse. It would be a little hard to, it'd be a little hard to do it completely accurately because, um, you'd have to ramp, you'd have to ramp the temperatures up and down the same in 2 baths of oil, which would be difficult unless you had it in like a 3rd bath of oil and wrapping it up and
+
+[15:51] down. So it'd be difficult experiment to kind of do unless you were, unless you had a professional lab. But it seems it seems interesting. So if it was going to work, I would say that just rosemary oil should do the trick, but again, no experience with it, but it sounds interesting,
+
+[16:06] you know? Yeah, rosemary, I will. Rosemary oil. Uh, maybe Chesroy can do that. You think? Yeah, I mean? You know, our friend, the chef, like, basically has rosemary growing out of his pocket for many uses at any time.
+
+[16:20] He has rosemary coming out of everything, right? like rosemary out of every orifice. Man is like, the man, the man sprung from a rosemary, a rosemary bush. Anyway, okay. Mike Anonymous, which I like that name. Mike Anonymous writes, and he has 2 questions. One, one's on meat and the other's on popcorn. So meat. I'm trying to buy all my meat from local farmers, and that usually means that it's frozen. Unfortunately, that is true because they don't sell it as fast. They don't have the pipeline out, so they slaughter it, maybe hang it. Hopefully, then freeze it and have it for sale. That's just, that's just the way it works because they just don't have product all the time and they can't, you know, get it out of the pipeline that
+
+[16:56] fast. My general question is, is the rule about not refreezing meat an issue of safety or quality or both? More specifically, my question is, can meat be refrozen after defrosting and manipulating 2 specific examples? He's thinking of, can he defrost a pork shoulder, make a sausage, Italian, for example, and then refreeze it
+
+[17:13] in a suitable size. And the same question goes for dumpling fillings and other ground pork products. Can you defrost a rack of ribs, thinking of McGee's oven method for barbecue
+
+[17:22] ribs, and refreeze them after cooking. Good shout out to McGee, and refreeze them after cooking. He would like to cook several racks and stash them away for a future meal. Okay, it is not a safety issue, Mike. It is a quality issue. Every time you freeze meat. Um, the meat is dehydrating as it as it freezes. Water is leaving the cells, especially the way you freeze in a normal home freezer. Water is leaving the cells, and then also the ice crystals that are formed can puncture those cells so that when it rehydrate, when it thaws out, it essentially has to rehydrate.
+
+[17:50] And if it doesn't rehydrate 100%, or if the cells are damaged too much, you get a huge what's called drip loss. You get a lot of liquid dripping out of the meat. So you're going to see like the sack with a lot of liquid, liquid dripping out of it. And the more times you repeat the cycle of freezing and thawing, the more you break
+
+[18:06] down the tissue and the more liquid you're going to lose. In fact, that is a technique that, you know, people use to break apart cells. freeestaw, freeestaw, freeestaw, freeestaw. Now, Assuming that when the meat thaws, it doesn't drip like a lunatic and it was frozen well the 1st time, right? By the way, but back on safety for a second. Freezing is not, it arrests bacterial growth, but it does not kill the bacteria, right?
+
+[18:32] So as long as you have the product safe the whole time, and then you cook it, refreezing it is not, is not an issue. Even if you thaw it completely, and then refreeze it completely. As long as you didn't temperature abuse the product. The product is going to remain safe. Okay? So the safety concerns are the same safety concerns you would have with anything else. The freezing itself doesn't alter the safety of it. Okay? Now, if you take a product that's cooked, like really cooked, like a stew or a braise or something like that, the cells are pretty much cooked
+
+[19:04] anyway. And so you could probably freeze it after that procedure and then, you know, like, you know, cook it and then freeze
+
+[19:10] after that procedure without too much of a quality loss, especially if you were going to freeze it and something like a vac bag or like a very, like,
+
+[19:18] close ziploc where there's no oxygen. You're going to want to keep the oxygen out because you're not going to want it to go rancid during the
+
+[19:24] 2nd freezing, and you're not going to want a chance for the moisture on the inside to be able to sublimate out or recrystallize on the outside and get freezer burn.
+
+[19:32] But as long as you do those 2 things, you might get some quality loss on refreezing. I mean, I'm not going to say that you won't get a quality loss, but I would say that you would probably get less quality loss on something that was
+
+[19:44] cooked and then after cooked, portioned and refrozen. So, you know, it's all a question of whether or not you get a result that you like. I mean, I think it's optimal to not have to freeze if you don't have to, especially if
+
+[19:58] you, you know, your home freezer is not very good, but sometimes there's just no choice. You might want to try a very fast freeze by bagging and then putting the bags into a very heavy brine and
+
+[20:07] ice solution and that'll drop it like a rock, freeze it really quick. But, um, I think McGee also posted some stuff on that online, but it's just like you would do for ice
+
+[20:15] cream. Just make sure that the salt can't get to your food and the water can't touch your food. We have a color. Oh, we have a color? All right, caller. I'll get back to your popcorn in a minute, Mike Anonymous. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, I'm Marcus from Venice Beach, and I just have a question about different Salumis. You know, you have the, uh, the, different type of salumes. I always wonder if you could speak a little bit about that. You know, um, I know it's a very broad topic, but, well, what in particular do you want to talk about with it? Well, you know, you have the sapasata, you have the salame. What makes the difference in time and so on in recipe? All right, well, I mean, the recipes, all right, so if we're talking Italian products, I mean, they're all, they're all extremely different, right? So the fundamentally, let's say we're just going to deal with pork products, right? So when you're starting with pork products, like the 1st thing you're going to choose is kind of what, assuming you all have the same quality of pork is going to be your fat lean ratio, right? And then how finally the parts are going to be cut up, right? So you can go all the way to like an emulsified product, like with a mortadella or something like that, where it's basically emulsified fats and
+
+[21:25] meat, you know, and muscle, or like very coarse. like most of the supers we call it. Hey, New York, we call it super sun. Anyway, like most of the stuff that I get, you know, it's fairly coarse, right? Down to something like, uh, you know, like uh, like the hunter saucers and the cacciatore sausages that are a little bit in between. So then you have like what the fat lean ratio is and then how they're cut up. The next most important thing for that, for these kinds of products is the spice and or sometimes wine mixture that's added to them, right?
+
+[21:57] So that's where a lot of the characteristic stuff is going to come into play. The next thing after that is then how much they're needed by hand. So some of the stuff that we think of as traditionally, like if you go to a deli and say salami, right? that they're, or they're very finely bound together is because they've been needed with salt. So they bind together and form a very kind of, uh, you know, compact, uh, like mass, and they're usually fairly finely chopped. Whereas you'll get some coarser products, and I'm not even talking about whole muscle cuts, like, you know, copas or anything like that. So it's like, um, So the coarser ones tend to be not needed as much, so they don't pack together as much. And then the next step after that, obviously, is what size
+
+[22:43] you pack in? So the thinner something that is going to be packed in, the shorter the drying time, but therefore, also, to my opinion, sometimes the less complex the taste, right? Then there's so many stuff. The next step after that is, well, a lot of times these guys, like in Italy, or in a lot of places that aren't commercial, they'll, they'll do what's called wild. They'll get a wild fermentation going because these sausages, aside from usually in the
+
+[23:09] US anyway, adding some nitrites to it to kill botulas. Botulism, by the way, is derived from the Latin for kind of sausage because you can get botulism in these things if they're not cured, you know, cured properly. So the nitrates are in there to prevent that. But they, the, so they have salts and nitrates to prevent that. But then also bacteria are growing in there, and the bacteria that grow in there drop the pH and make it acidic. That's where the tart tangy nature of these sausages come from. So the temperature of fermentation and what kind of bacteria in that also make a huge difference on the type of product you're
+
+[23:43] going to get. And so, the combination of all of those things together, then along with, you know, the environments,
+
+[23:50] age the microflora in a place where it's aged, or what are going to give you all the different kinds of results.
+
+[23:57] You know what I'm saying? I mean, and that's, you know, that's, in a nutshell,
+
+[24:02] basically, what's going on with most of the, with most of the, the cut up products and their differences. That makes sense? You there? I lost him. Anyway, I hope that's what he wanted to talk about. That's making me dang hungry, though. I could use some salumi right now. Man, I could use some salumi. Oh my goodness. Anyway, did that answer the question? hope so. What do you think? You make sense? that was great. Yeah. See, Jack, Jack has a good answer. Whereas Nastasia sits here, calls me an A-hole. Nistachia calls me an a-hole, on the air, and then's like, I don't know. listening to what you were saying anyway, right? All right. Mike Anonymous calls in, writes in with popcorn question. He goes, what's your go to method? high or low heat, pan with oil, microwave, or other? I make it in a saucepan with oil, heat it over high until a few kernels pop, add the remainder, and turn the heat down a little. I use a splatter screen instead of a cover as excess steam seems to make it chewy. I make it regularly, but have difficulty with consistently excellent popcorn. My problems are occasionally chewy, not life and fluffy, corn and varying levels of pop kernels. I buy my corner from a local co-op in small quantities. So as far as I know, it is fresh. I have read about people who cook it over lower heat, but that doesn't seem right to me. Nor does it seem right to me, Mike Anonymous. Now, I haven't had any experience with buying popcorn from
+
+[25:17] co-op, local co-op. Um, you might have some issues that, because popcorn is pretty tweaked out. Like, you know, not that I have nothing for or against the, you know, the good folks
+
+[25:27] at, you know, whatever it is, Orville, Redenbach, or whatever, but certain popcorn varieties, are much better
+
+[25:33] poppers and the popcorn that's left over. I believe they're called widows, the ones that don't pop, the little kernels at the bottom that don't pop. I believe they're called widows. I used to know that. There's 2 basic kinds of popcorn. There's the butterfly shape that we're used to, and then there's the, I forget what it's called. I think mushroom, which is the one that they use for caramel coating because it has a larger surface area and doesn't break apart. Usually we're eating butterfly popcorn. Um, that's got a, uh, you know, they're fairly consistent, but they're grown to be popcorn.
+
+[26:00] So there is a huge difference among varieties. And the one you get, maybe you like the taste, but maybe you don't get them all popped. I don't know. As for the my favorite technique, like by far and away, my favorite technique is the whirly pop. The whirly pop is basically a lidded hinge with a wheel on it that keeps the thing agitated while you spin it. They're like 30 bucks, um, and you just oil and whirly pop, turn it on, uh, not so high that it's gonna scorch, and you just keep turning until the stuff pops. It's got steam vents in it, so the steam seems to leave. I've never had a problem with popcorn being chewy in that. It's also a fantastic 1st coffee roaster, if you want to roast coffee in a whirly pop. Do you know what I'm talking about, Whirly Pops, this makes sense, no static? You know, it's got the wooden handle on it. And it's got like a little gear on the top and it goes down, it's got a little wire that moves around and keeps the popcorn moving on the bottom. And that's what I use. almost exclusively until my mom decided that what she was going to get me for Christmas was a
+
+[26:58] movie style popcorn machine that is like, you know, it's meant for homes, but it's big enough to be in a movie
+
+[27:05] theater. It takes up my whole apartment, but the kids fell in love with it. So now that's in my house and that works on the same principle as the whirly pop. It's just a smaller, uh, it's a smaller container than the than the worldly pop. It's basically, and that's the way most of the pro batch things work. They have an agitated rod with a loose fitting flap up lid with steam vents that allow the steam to leave so that the steam can
+
+[27:26] leave. Well, it's going. You know, the popcorn kernels themselves should be well above the boiling temperature. So once it leaves, the steam's gonna want to leave. Spatter screen, you might have some issues with oil getting out or problems. I don't know. I mean, it doesn't sound like you do, but the whirly pop, if you make it often, get the
+
+[27:43] freaking whirly pop, just go buy it. You're not going to regret it. then you can start roasting coffee as well. What do you think? Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, we have a question in from Stephen Garrett regarding pressure cookers. Hey, long time reader of the blog and listener. Thank you, Stephen. I finally got my hands on a pressure cooker, a cuisinart pressure cooker, electric model, which got christened with a pork shoulder for pulled pork.
+
+[28:02] As I've never used one before. I was wondering if you had any tips, techniques, or recipes to fully utilize the machine. I love the look of your egg bread and was wondering how it is done and is there a liquid in the pot? Regards Steve from Wellington, New Zealand. Okay, Steve. I know a lot of people, Jeffrey Steingarten, is one who loves his Cuisinart electric pressure cooker. What I don't know is what the actual pressure on the Cuisinard is because the one failing of electric pressure cookers is they don't necessarily tell you what the pressure level on it is, right?
+
+[28:31] So hopefully the cuisinart runs at £15 per square inch, which is going to, you know, uh, which is what, you know, all standard uh, pressure cookers run at, but not all electric pressure cookers. So if it runs a 15 PSI, it's going to work just like a regular pressure cooker does for anything else. The great thing about an electric is you don't have to worry about throttling the gas up and
+
+[28:49] down. And you rarely, I think, if ever, I've never heard it really scorch, have big scorching problems on the bottom of the
+
+[28:55] bowl because you're not using a high, high heat. plus, you know, it doesn't take up a burner. It doesn't heat up the kitchen appreciably, so supposedly they're fantastic, although I've never really used that one. The interesting thing about the egg bread. We don't add any extra liquid to it. I would add some to the recipe. I would add a pinch of sugar or soy, not too much or it'll burn, but you actually don't need to make it in a pressure cooker. You can make it in a steamer, we found out later. Um, because a chef randomly did it in a, in a steamer instead of in a pressure cooker and it worked just as well. Pressure cooker will work, but you can do that thing just in a steamer. And it uses its own liquid. just egg yolks, uh, baking powder, uh, salt, uh,
+
+[29:38] sugar or soy, uh, and just beaten together, and then, uh, not even a lot, just like basically mixed together, and then put into ramekins and steamed.
+
+[29:46] You can pressure cook it. Here's what I would do with the pressure cooker. First of all, I hope the Cuisinard, I I am not sure is non-venting. In other words, it doesn't produce steam when it's working. It's basically sealed or produces very little steam, in which case you can use it to make some fantastic stocks, especially reinforced stocks and like triple stocks. So if you get bones, you can do a triple stock, i.e. you know, a fresh set of bones to get this incredibly rich stock in like an hour.
+
+[30:10] Secondly, even if it does vent from, you know, the guys at modernist cuisine, they seal their stock in mason jars. So they can do basically the work of sealed stock in small quantities in jars without having a vented
+
+[30:23] pressure without having a non venting pressure cooker. The one I have is a coon recon, expensive, and also not electric. So that's very interesting. Also, garlic. Pressure cooked garlic. I do it in milk typically. Blend it with for about 20, I do it about 20 minutes, then blend it with oil. That's a great pizza sauce. Nils and I are doing a demonstration in Texas. And flying out to Texas later this afternoon. And we're doing ramps, which are, you know, wild, you know,
+
+[30:48] allium things from the US. We're doing a pressure cooked ramp ice cream. You can do onion ice cream. You can pressure cook horseradish and then puree it, you can pressure cook. Like I say, onions. Any one of those things can be modified, pressure cooked. Do we ever put the stuff on the blog? Pressure cooked, mustard seeds, you pressure cooked them in, you 1st you blanch them in water, then you pressure cooked them in vinegar, and then add sugar afterwards, toss it, and you get these like
+
+[31:12] awesome like, they're almost like mustard seed caviar. The one thing, uh, don't add a lot of, if you add high sugar, things are gonna get really dark really fast because the sugar is gonna be an even higher temperature. So you might get some scorching. That's why I add the sugar to things like the mustard seeds afterwards so that they inflate properly and they
+
+[31:28] and they don't, you know, get too brown. Another great one is humming eggs, which are the eggs that turn brown because of the mired reactions that happen at low temperatures. We put whole eggs, hard boil them. I don't know if you can unseal it and let it boil. If not, like bring water to a boil with the eggs, let it hard boil normally for like, you know, 6 minutes or so, then put the hot water and the eggs in the
+
+[31:51] pressure cooker for about an hour. And when they're done, hopefully they didn't break. When they're done, you peel them and the whites are kind of dark, nutty brown and have like a toasted kind of aroma. When you cut it, the yolks have a chicken
+
+[32:04] liver kind of a chicken liver kind of aroma. pretty cool. So these are some good things to do. And obviously, it's really great for fast braises, like pork shoulder. The one thing I have to caution you against is don't add a lot of extra liquid because you're not going to evaporate and reduce a lot of extra liquid. You should put in your wine 1st and then reduce it down so that it, you know, you get rid of the kind of alcohol aroma, you want to get off of it, and then reduce like somewhat or pull the product afterwards and then reduce it, reduce the
+
+[32:34] stock. But I would definitely start with less liquid than you're used to. And also, you're going to get a richer, meatier taste, but the texture is going to be different because the fibers are going to be broken apart a little
+
+[32:44] more and it's because it's cooked at a higher heat, it's, you know, overcooked, overcooked in a technical sense.
+
+[32:49] But usually quite delicious. I actually like braises. I did a chili and a pressure cooker that was awesome. Awesome. Anyway, uh, I hope that answered your question and uh, get back to us and tell us, tell us how it worked. We wanna go to one more commercial break. Let's go to one more break and come back. Call on your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Some call me the gangster of love. Some people call me Maurice. Because I speak of the pompetous of love. People talk about me, baby. Say, I'm doing you wrong, doing you wrong. Well, don't you worry, baby, don't worry. Because I'm right here, radio, radio, radio at home. Welcome back to cooking issues. So I see Nostalgia gave me at least one decent Steve Miller song, along with punishing
+
+[33:57] me not only with a raw vegan diet for a week, but giving me the absolute
+
+[34:01] worst Steven Miller song. Oh, the... Right. It's unbelievable that Abracadabra was written by the same person or same people that wrote, you know,
+
+[34:11] the Joker, right? I mean, I look, I'm never, I was never a huge Stephen other guy growing up, but I got to respect it. I mean, that's the, you know what I mean? Like that's real song. That's real deal. Did he say I'm a gangster of love or something? He is, yeah. that was the lyric. Although some people do call him Maurice. You know, known by many names. But the, but abracadaver is got to be the worst, the worst damn song in the whole world. Anyway, thank you for the quadruple punishment, Nastasia. Thank you so much. Okay. Brian Garrick wrote in with a next demon, alkali question in
+
+[34:45] general. He read the article on extimalization in the blog, and he loves saying that word as much as we do. It is a great word. Oh, by the way, in case you don't know what the heck we're talking about. That's the process of taking a base, like calcium
+
+[34:58] hydroxide is a classic, and then cooking corn in it, and it makes a characteristic,
+
+[35:05] a kind of flavor and texture for masa dough for making tortillas.
+
+[35:10] So you get that awesome. I mean, it's just great. The base basically breaks up the outside of the corn kernel, makes it easier to grind, prehydrates it. Um, it changes the texture of it, the flavor, fantastic. Read the article on nixtamilization because unfortunately I'm not going to have the time to go through the entire rigmarole here, but we love it.
+
+[35:28] Anyway, he's interested in making pretzels and possibly other things with basic solutions. Can you give me the down and dirty on all this stuff? It seems like baking soda is too weak, and you already covered calcium hydroxide with mixed normalization. Lie, which is sodium hydroxide, seems too dangerous per my article, and I agree that it is. I still use it at school, but I won't use it at home because I have kids at home. If I didn't have kids at home and it was properly labeled. I would do it, but I'm not having that in my house with the kids. Uh, lie seems too dangerous as per your article, but what is, but is what pretzels traditionally require. What about McGee's article about baking, baking soda? So you take baking soda and you turn it from sodium bicarbonate into sodium carbonate. Um, what about McGee's and go look it up. The great article. What about McGee's article about baking, baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate sodium carbonate? Does that really work? Does it make a solution stronger? Is it safe? And what about the stuff I found at the Chinese market? There's a bottle of clear liquid labeled potassium, carbonate, and sodium bicarbonate solution. And they also have some white crystals of borax, which are labeled not food safe, but are right next to the spices. So what's safe and what's not? I don't want to poison myself or others. And as a final note, how does ateries make fossilized the fossilized veggies in Spain, like salsophy, with calcium, what's the reaction going on there? Is it the same as the banana that we cook with calcium hydroxide? And is there any other fun applications? Well, Brian, in San Francisco? A lot of questions there. I'm going to try and hit them in the little amount of time that I have left. Um, he is using calcium hydroxide. I haven't had them, by the way, so I don't know specifically, but I have talked to people that have had ateries as vegetables that are done this way. And I think also, Renny Redseppi, Noma, uses this technique. And they're basically firming up the outside of vegetables,
+
+[37:10] using, they use calcium hydroxide to basically cross-link the
+
+[37:15] pectin there. And that's what's going on, calcium cross-linking of pectin. They're usually done in conjunction with heat treatment, which activates the enzyme inside
+
+[37:25] the vegetables that causes it to happen, which is pectin methyl esterase. And so the combination of calcium and the heat activating the pectin methylesterase makes a very strong outside shell, and then the inside basically is allowed to get mushy in the outside firm. Now, what I do with a banana is I inject calcium hydroxide into the
+
+[37:45] banana and the injection of calcium hydroxide makes the banana firm all the way through. We've recently done it without the calcium hydroxide by injecting with
+
+[37:53] just calcium and then heat treating it and getting a similar result. But that's what's going on with those. And you can do those, you know, at home, it's the exact same thing that goes on with the banana, which is, you know, traditionally done in Thai
+
+[38:07] cooking or their Asian cooking. So yes, that's a very good thing. That's calcium hydroxide. lots of different forms of calcium. will do that for you. Now, borax is used as a food ingredient in other countries, but is not legal for food use here in the US. Now, I don't know what the specific health problems with it are, right? But there is food grade borax, for instance, caviars treated with borax. It's a, it affects the texture in a way that I'm not really, don't really understand. Borax is, I think, I believe it's a borate, like sodium, 2 sodiums, and then borate, which
+
+[38:42] is like, I think, 4 borons and tetraborate, I think. Anyway. But it's it's used as a texture modifier, but also as a preservative. So in caviar, they'll add a little borax. And to fish roll, they'll add borax to it as a preservative. And I read on Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of borax. But, um, well, this part of it, that, that our caviar that we get here in the US is more highly salted because Borax isn't allowed to be added to it. But it's definitely used in other cultures as I've never used it as a firming agent and as a preservative. Borax, if you can get a hold of it, is also the cool stuff that you mix with Elmer's. It's an agent that helps polymerize things, make larger polymers. So I was finding a lot of articles on using borax to make
+
+[39:24] larger like food polymers, but not, I couldn't find anything specific for, you know, normal use. But if you mix it with Omer's glue, you can make slime. Borax, nommer's glue, mixed together. Silly putty is, I think, different. Like, PV, polyvinyl alcohol is the, is the glue, is the, what glue Elmer's white glue is? And if you add borax to it, it polymerizes and turns to
+
+[39:46] polymerized PDA, which is slime. you know, gak or whatever. The stuff that's in the, that's, you know, that slime. which I'm extremely interested in because I want to make a food grade slime. working on it, but I haven't fixed it yet. Okay. The potassium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate solution that you see is con sway. That's what's used to make, that's what's used to make the stretchy yellow alkaline noodles, right? So you add that, that's a basic solution, and that's very classic in Chinese, you know, recipes. Your flour is gonna go very yellow and it's gonna the noodles are gonna have a lot of bite to it, right? It's going to really enhance the kind of gluten snappiness of those things. That's the console that's typically used for the yellow apple and noodles. Although, I don't know how basic it is. It might also be useful for pretzels. I'm not sure. That stuff is also mistakenly sometimes sold as lie water, even though it doesn't contain lie, which is everything, everything's got to be, Brian, everything's got to be a pain in the ass. You know what I'm saying? Oh, you can say that. Like ass is different. It's a donkey. Makes no sense. She made no sense. All right. Now, the converting baking soda to, you know, the sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate actually does
+
+[40:49] work and will make a fine pretzel. Bai is traditional. I've never done a side by side taste test of live boiled pretzels versus sodium carbonate pretzels.
+
+[40:58] I have made sodium bicarbonate pretzels, and they were, meh, meh. You know what I mean? Like, but I've never done live versus sodium carbonate. McGee's technique definitely does work. You can also tell if it's worked because the weight changes of the sodium bicarbonate because water is being driven off. So you can weigh the sample before and after to verify that you have, in fact, converted it. Use that, um, to, what are this driven off? Or CO2. I can't remember. Anyway, I can't remember what's driven off. But then you can weigh it and weigh the difference. And then use that to make your pretzels, add it and do the boil. The reason you boil pretzels in a basic solution is because that will radically, 1st of all, it changes the flavor, makes it taste like a
+
+[41:40] pretzel, and not like, like, you know, something else, like a bagel or something like that. You know, because a pretzel is supposed to taste like a pretzel. First of all, pretzels should be freaking twisted. I don't like pretzel sticks. I don't like molded pretzels. I don't like any of these pretzeloids. I don't like, I don't like, like, fish prep shaped pretzels. I mean, they're okay. They shouldn't be called pretzels. Pretzels need to be twisted because the way they break up. When you eat a pretzel, it's twisted. It breaks up in a very specific way, the pretzels are supposed to break up based on the fact that they were a stick of dough that's been twisted into a shape that we know as a pretzel,
+
+[42:13] right? And so, you know, the middle knot has a different texture from the nubbins. There also bakes differently in different parts, which adds varied texture to it as well. So a real pretzel, and I've taught my kids this, since they were about, since they could speak, I could walk up to my kids and say, what's a real
+
+[42:28] pretzel, and they're like, daddy, real pretzel is twisted, because that is what a pretzel should be. Anyway, aside from that, it needs the real pretzel taste from the, um, for boiling in a basic solution. It also that it's going to enhance the Mayard reaction. So the reason pretzels are so dark brown is because they have been boiled beforehand in a basic solution. Um, but I haven't done live versus sodium carbonate, but I'm sure the sodium carbonate is going to be good. If you can have lying around, do it. If not, I'm sure sun carbonates a fine, fine runner-up. Also, if you are going to make a hard pretzel. Please do not add any oil to the pretzel at all. Don't add any oil at all. If you take most pretzels that are bad, even twisted ones or ones on the market, I'm not going to call out roll gold
+
+[43:14] as a bad brand of pretzels, but if I did, it's because if you looked at the ingredient label or
+
+[43:19] Bachman, which like would otherwise be a fine pretzel because it's twisted, they're large ones, right? Uh, if you look at the ingredient label, they have oil in it and that reduces the texture of a
+
+[43:29] pretzel, from what God intended a pretzel to be, which is delicious to that of a cracker with a dark brown crust on the outside and salt.
+
+[43:38] That's not what you want a pretzel to be. All right, now, I have one last thing. I'm going to defer this to the eater blog, as the 1st one's going to go to the eater blog. Adam Frost adds a question about legumes and the vegetal taste that legumes have when they're raw. And since A, I didn't have time to research it thoroughly, and B, it's time for us to go, Adam, I'm going to answer your question on
+
+[44:00] eater tonight or tomorrow, but I'm going to have to call McGee to see what he thinks, all right? So listen, your pretzels must be twisted. Your pretzels must not contain oil and your pretzels must be boiled in alkaline solution. Cooking issues.
+
+[44:18] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[44:34] Radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. My head all twisted. And a guest can't get it straight. Nicole Taylor is always the 1st to talk with new and exciting personalities in the food world on her
+
+[44:56] show Hot Grease. Check out a little clip. Everything is super sweet in the Heritage Radio Network Studios today. We're chatting with Fannie Gearson. Fannie is a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America and the 2011 James Beard Foundation Cookbook Award nominee.
+
+[45:15] Oh my god, we fry in bed style. We have to talk to dope donuts. I'm going to have to say, Fanny. I don't know if you know this. I was definitely the 1st person in Brooklyn to start talking about it. Did you know that? I knew that last time I saw you. But I didn't know that before. So we have to talk dough. I mean, it is it is a bona fide phenomenon in Brooklyn.
+
+[45:36] I'm so excited to be part of it. And I can't believe it. I mean, I was just telling you before the show that I think about a month ago, I went to Doe on a Sunday at 2 o'clock and all the donuts. You like what you hear? You can hear hot grease every Monday at 3.30 p.m. live on heritageradionetwork.com. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast or check it out in our archives. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Keper. This little nugget comes from Food Safety News, which is a blog that you can get every single day if you want to sign up for it. I love it. And in this one, it says, in what qualifies as ground shifting news in the food safety world. The U.S. Department of Agriculture today, on Tuesday, lopped 15 degrees off of its recommended temperature for safely
+
+[46:24] cooking, whole cuts of pork, aligning it with guidelines already in place for beef, veal, and
+
+[46:29] lamb. Heating steak, roasts, and chops to an internal temperature of 145 degrees Fahrenheit, so long as the meat sits briefly before it's eaten, is enough to ensure its safety, the USDA said. This latest revision for pork comes again on the advice of the FSIS, which is
+
+[46:46] a food safety inspection service, which says cooking cuts of pork to
+
+[46:49] 145 degree Fahrenheit with a 3 minute rest is as safe as cooking them to 160 degrees. The previously recommended temperature with no rest time. So now you can have a little bit of pink, juicy pork, even if you're buying commodity pork, which should vastly improve its taste and eating quality.
+
+[47:07] This has been behind scenes food news with Katie Kiefer.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] The following is a public service announcement from just food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the Just Food
+
+[0:07] City Chicken Project 2011. The city chicken project would not be possible without the volunteer hours, donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work
+
+[0:17] with. Just Food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make
+
+[0:26] fresh, locally grown food accessible to all. To donate search on Kickstarter.com for just food and find their city chicken project. For more information on just food, visit justfood.org or call 212-645-9880. That's 212-645-9880. Let's keep making New York City a better place to live and eat.
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 here in the studio with
+
+[1:10] Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and special unannounced guest caller in, Harold McGee. So we're gonna, is Harold there? Good morning, Dave. Good morning, good morning. How you doing? So listen, I didn't tell any of you guys out there that he was going to be on. We're gonna... I actually told him, can you just answer these 2 questions? I'm going to try and keep them on as long as I can. So if you, if a caller calls in, will you take it? Uh, you know, I'd love to. If we can maybe get this the phone connection fixed, because I'm hearing like every other millisecond of your of what you're
+
+[1:46] saying. All right, why don't we do this? Jack, why don't you reestablish that connection? just do the top of the show kind of crud, all right? We'll reestablish Harold's questions. Call on your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, and oh, Nastasia, today's going to be Texas themed, uh, songs in the middle because I just got back from Texas. Did you choose them already? I did choose them already. By the way, today's a show brought to you by City Chicken, right? Which is Nastasia's next band, I think, City Chicken, right? But on the subject of raising livestock in the city, Something I've been interested in a long, long time is micro livestock. The, I believe it's the FAO put out a book on micro livestock maybe about 15 years ago, 10, 15 years ago. And I read it with much interest. Did you know, Anastasia, that there are breeds of livestock that, although not as efficient at producing meat or milk as the larger breeds of livestock, can be raised in situations where you don't have enough land to produce even
+
+[2:45] one. So if you don't have enough pasture to raise even one cow, you can raise 2 micro cows, and those 2 micro cows will produce 13rd of the milk of
+
+[2:53] a regular cow, but you couldn't even raise a regular cow, right? You like that? So what I want is if anyone is willing to raise some sort of micro livestock illegally in the city. I think we should chip together and buy them one, like buy it, like buy like a couple, people have pet pigs, but like, what if you had like a micro eating pig? You know what I mean? Or like, you know, and they raised it in their apartment. Do you think we should support that or no? No. Why not? Sure, take on another take on another project. Well, it's not a project. Someone else is going to do it. All we have to do is buy them the animal anyway. Something to think about. Do we have Harold back on the line? Harold back, yeah. Harold's back. Very good. Is that connection better, Harold? It is, yeah, so far. We'll hope that since it's my cell phone number. I hope that the connection stays here. Oh, yeah, yeah. Cell phone. I know, you are you are also a victim of AT&T as am I, right? Yes. Got an email from them yesterday saying, welcome to the new AT&T. I hope this one works. All right. Okay. So the 1st question we had in was about legumes. It comes from Adam Frost. And I guess he's out of the UK because he spells flavor with the UK kind of fashion, but he says,
+
+[4:03] legumes and some grains have a slightly acrid vegetal taste when raw, but this dissipates after a certain amount of cooking, usually proportional to the size of the seed.
+
+[4:11] Is this the work and or destruction of enzymes? Also, if you cook some starchy food, again, grains and legumes for far too long, approximately 12 hours, they can develop an
+
+[4:22] off-flavor that is difficult to describe. If you know what I'm talking about, do you know what causes this? Now, I tried to figure out this answer on my own, but I realize this is really Harold's, you know, purview.
+
+[4:32] Also, before I go, I didn't introduce Harold. For those, for like the 2 people who might have ever listened to this, who don't already know who Harold is, Harold McGee is
+
+[4:40] the grandmaster of science as it relates to making things delicious, wrote the seminal book
+
+[4:48] on Food and Cooking 1st edition, right? Which you need to go buy, even if you have the new one, you need to go buy the old one because it's quite different from the current on food and cooking. Both books have been, you know, since 84, I think. And the other one since when, like 2004. The things that you need in your kitchen, if you want to help explain what's going on while you're cooking. It's like, it's the reference work. If you get one book at that one. That's kind of how it works. But you should also buy the old one. I'm OG Harold, by the way. I had the original before the new one came out, so I consider myself OG OG Harold fan. You also need to go on bookfinder and pick up a copy of Curious Cook, which is going to teach you more, in my opinion, from knowing you for several years, kind of how Harold thinks when he's thinking about things, which is the most important thing to do when you're trying to observe food closely and figure out what's going on.
+
+[5:40] And so that's like the more personal book and the newest book is the key, the keys to cooking, right? Key is a good cooking. Key is a good cooking. And what that is, is basically like short form, like how to get the answers quick on what's going on without having to delve into the depth of on food and cooking.
+
+[5:57] Would you say that's accurate? Yes, I'm very generous. Thank you. And the new book, which it's not even scheduled, but the one I know he wants to
+
+[6:06] write, is like the next magnum opus. I know if I'm allowed to talk about this, but the next magnum opus, I
+
+[6:12] think, that's going to come out, is, and it could be, you know, a billionaires. I don't know, is something on taste and flavor, and it's probably going to be the most difficult. If I had to write it, it would be the most difficult of the ones so far because there's so much not known, and there's so much work being done. It's such a complicated subject. Would you say that's fair or no? No, that's absolutely right. And in fact, that, uh, that's kind of in the background of uh, these questions that you uh, sent to
+
+[6:41] me, because they're both in in their various ways about flavor and about how complicated it is to figure out what's going on in real foods.
+
+[6:50] Which is why I knew you'd be on top of it. So what are your thoughts? Well, uh, so on this question about legume and grain flavor, uh, it does turn out that, uh, uh, the, the flavors of, of legumes, especially dried beans and peas and so on,
+
+[7:07] now it's very distinctive, and it does have to do with uh, very high levels
+
+[7:12] of, uh, enzymes in the seed that break down, uh, fats and fatty
+
+[7:18] related, uh, molecules, um, phospholipids, and things like that that you find in the membranes of the cells, breaks them down into smaller pieces. Uh, big molecules like fats and oil. They don't have intrinsic aromas of their own or flavors, but when you break them down into smaller molecules, then we can taste
+
+[7:40] them and we can smell them. And so it turns out that uh, characteristic flavors of those things uh, do have to do with very high levels of
+
+[7:48] certain, uh, fat breaking enzymes that generate lots and lots of, um, 6 carbon and 8
+
+[7:57] carbon uh, molecules that have the flavor of kind of grass and leaves and things like that on the one hand, and mushrooms, on the other hand. So, in a way, the flavor of
+
+[8:09] lightnings in particular is, uh, leafy greens plus mushrooms combined together. Um, and so, uh, Adam's question about, um,
+
+[8:20] that, that flavor is there for, for quite a while, but then it sort of dissipates during cooking. Uh, what happens during cooking is that at 1st uh, that encourages the action of those enzymes, so they actually generate more and more of
+
+[8:33] these, um, uh, flavor compounds. But then with time, the enzymes get killed by the heat, and then the heat
+
+[8:41] also drives off those molecules, forces them to react with other molecules, and
+
+[8:48] so those particular qualities kind of fade into the background. Ask Harold, and ye shall receive, right? Have you ever experienced the cooking for a long time off flavors on starchy
+
+[9:03] foods? Uh, you know, not, uh, I've never cooked just grains or uh, beans by themselves for a long time. I've certainly, you know, cooked and reheated uh, pots of, um, uh, bean dishes and that kind of thing. But that's different because you've got herbs and spices and other stuff in
+
+[9:25] there and that's going to change the equation. So I've never actually done the experiment of cooking uh beans for 12 hours to see what happens to them. Uh, I, I, I don't really know offhand what uh, sorts of molecules you would get because, you know, that's essentially taking the process. I just described and extending it for a long, long time. And uh, so that's, that's an experiment I have to do. I mean, I would guess the 2 choices are the water is slightly alkaline and you're getting some sort of myard reaction that you perceive as an off-flavor because you don't want that readiness. Or two, you're getting some sort of fat oxidation or whatever fats are left over. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, it could be those. It could be that you're, uh, because at the same time that you're creating flavor, you're also losing it because you're cooking it for so long, you know, uh,
+
+[10:14] the, the more volatile molecules are going to go away and you're going to be left with the less volatile
+
+[10:20] stuff. And so the balance of aromas is going to change and maybe it's just going to be something that doesn't smell as much like beans or
+
+[10:27] grains as you expect them to. So you're like losing a masking flavor. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but I don't think, you know, uh, Adam posed the question, uh, as, um, uh, it having to do with the starchiness of these particular uh, foods, but their seeds, which do have a lot of starch.
+
+[10:47] Uh, I don't think the starch has much to do with it, except that, um,
+
+[10:51] is possible that starch might be with with the long cooking,
+
+[10:56] uh, the starch, uh, grains break open and you, you end up with, uh, with free starch, which ends up in the cooking
+
+[11:04] liquid eventually. That stuff may be binding some of the aroma molecules. Um, that certainly is known in the food science literature, that amylose, and amylopectin can actually bind aroma molecules, which then means that they're not available to our noses
+
+[11:21] to um, to smell. No, that might be part of it as well. Right. So you probably think it's not like a starch hydrolysis over
+
+[11:28] time, and then the smaller thing's breaking down into something else. Uh, yeah, I I, I kind of doubt it, but, um, but I don't know. Alrighty. Well, again, you are the perfect man to ask these questions. The 2nd one that I thought you were perfect for being a San Franciscan or what do you call yourself? San Franciscans. What are you guys? Folks from San Francisco? Yeah, yeah. We don't have a, uh, we need to develop a good term for that. Rice Aroni eaters. Right. Anyway, this question is on sourdough, which I know you've researched quite a bit. Uh, especially as regards its flavor compounds. And so, um, this this one's for you from uh, Christian uh, Swanopol. You think you pronounced that Swanpo? Swanpo? How do you think? Yeah. From New Zealand, and we love the New Zealanders and the Australians, especially because they have come up in force to say that the
+
+[12:28] show today, tonight, or tonight, today, or whatever it is that was anti-Miklu is a tabloid farce, maybe more on that
+
+[12:37] later, if we have time, I doubt we will. He writes, I've read quite a bit about sourdough starters, and there seems to be a lot of different information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect the
+
+[12:45] starter, and also the final bread dough. Peter Reinhardt, who's a, you know, well-known author in the breadworld, says that a firmer starter promotes a production of lactic rather than acetic acid, while instructions that come with
+
+[12:56] a starter I bought, because the one he raised himself died, because he neglected it, joined the club Christian, says exactly the opposite.
+
+[13:03] The instructions also say that warmer temperatures encourage lactic
+
+[13:07] acid and cooler temperatures, acetic. I read elsewhere that putting the dough in the fridge halts yeast activity, while lactobacilli continued to produce acid. Could you please clear this up for me? And maybe you want to handle that one and then handle the 2nd question, 2nd prong of this
+
+[13:22] after? Uh, yeah, because that is a different, uh, different kind of question. But, uh, so, uh, he starts this question by saying there seems to be a lot of different, uh, pieces of information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect starter and final red dough.
+
+[13:39] Boy, is that true, that there's a lot of different pieces of information out there? So, when I reviewed the literature, uh, back in the early part of the century, you know, 2000, 2003 or so,
+
+[13:55] uh, for uh, the 2nd edition of my book. Uh, the lesson I drew at the time. was that, uh, cooler temperatures are actually, uh, and and uh, firmer starters are better for the
+
+[14:12] yeast. Because, you know, sourdoughs, essentially, uh, you got yeast that are providing the gas for leavening, but you've also got bacteria that are generating a lot of the flavor, including acids, which is why it's a sourdough.
+
+[14:25] And uh, some acid is good for flavor, um, and for other properties of the sourdough. Um, but too much means that the yeast don't get a chance to generate
+
+[14:37] uh, enough uh, uh, carbon dioxide to give you a nice leavened loaf. So you want the bacteria to do well, but you really want the yeast to do well too. And the problem is that they, that the acids of the bacteria inhibit the growth of the yeast. So there is this delicate balancing act in general between the yeasts and the and the bacteria, even before you get into issues of the difference between lactic acid and acetic acid, which are both acids.
+
+[15:06] So on the question of the balance between the yeast and the bacteria, the lesson I cooked
+
+[15:13] three, 4 years ago was that, or I guess it's longer ago now than
+
+[15:17] that 10 years ago. Um, uh, that lower temperatures, fermentation
+
+[15:23] temperatures, and firmer starters gave the yeast a better chance of, um, uh, being there
+
+[15:31] in enough numbers to give you a good dough. Uh, I took another look uh, last night and this morning, and even that seems to be uh, in question now. So the, the, the basic problem with the whole thing is that uh, it's such a variable system that depending on who's doing the experiment and what the conditions are, people are coming up with completely uh, opposite, um, findings as to, you know, what's, what are the best conditions
+
+[15:57] for uh, the growth of the yeasts or forgetting particular sets of
+
+[16:02] acids. And I just don't know who to believe. Right. I mean, part of it is it's extremely complicated because it's not, it's not anywhere close to a single system. You're dealing with, with, you know, dozens, at least, you know, on
+
+[16:16] the small amount of research I was able to do, dozens of different, um, lacto, uh, lactobacilli, uh, strains that are involved uh, in different sourdough starters, multiple, multiple bacteria per starter, dozens that
+
+[16:30] are, that are commonly known, plus different uh, yeast, some
+
+[16:33] wild, and, and the balance of those 2 things is affected by many things, including the type of flower, the ash content of the flower, the hydration, all of it affects it,
+
+[16:43] right? I mean, it's it's just an incredibly complicated system. Yeah, yeah. How often you stir it? Um, uh, how much you aerate it during the stirring, so you're stirring technique makes a difference. Because oxygen, uh, something that's useful to remember in general, and this, I think, uh, has not been contradicted by anything, uh,
+
+[17:05] yeasts uh, actually do need oxygen to uh, to grow well. Um, and of course in a, in a dough, um, you're, you're essentially forcing them to do
+
+[17:16] with, with very little. But when you're encouraging them to, um, to grow in your starters so that you start out with a good dose of them in your bread dough. Uh, it's really good to, to whip that, uh, sourdough starter or knead it if it's a firmer starter a lot in order to get air in there to give
+
+[17:37] the, uh, the east a leg up on the bacteria. Right. And, uh, you know, there's a couple bunch of different kinds of
+
+[17:45] lactic acid bacteria, some of which, the most of which, actually, the
+
+[17:49] hetero fermented ones will actually produce some CO2. and that's how they produce acetic acid at the same time, if there's oxygen
+
+[17:58] present, or other things like fructose. There's like, you know, so adding air will also increase the amount of acetic versus, adding
+
+[18:05] oxygen, rather, will increase the amount of acetic versus lactic gas. I mean, it's just the whole thing's complicated. Yep, yep. Exactly. And as the 2nd part of Christian's question indicates, just getting the thing to grow at all is such a challenge that I myself
+
+[18:21] am happy not to worry about the lactic versus ascetic balance because, but it's true
+
+[18:27] that those are 2 different assets. One has an aroma and the other doesn't. One is your, the aroma of vinegar, and you want a little bit of that, but not too
+
+[18:37] much, uh, and lactic acid gives you maybe a kind of cleaner tartness
+
+[18:42] than, than acetic does. But those are real fine points and the, the, the important thing to begin with is just getting something going and relatively stable so that you can then begin to refine
+
+[18:52] the, the results. Well, uh, this has been very enlightening. Can you stay with us past the next past the 1st break or no? Yeah. Super. All right, we're going to go to our 1st break call and your questions to Harold McGee and cooking issues at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. They had a war about for me all over the country. And I was trying to beat 2 rap in Idaho. I was breaking into a schoolhouse Sunday morning without
+
+[19:26] warning when I saw the sheriff coming for me slow from down below. His steel gray eyes were blazing when he saw. His hand was on his gun when he rolled up. He said, you'd kill that woman, and oh, you shut her, why you do it? I'm taking you to Austin that I'm gonna lock you up. Well, he tied me with the plowline the next morning. Oh, God, I love that song. That's Johnny Cash, Austin Prison, using that song because I just got back from Austin from the ICP conference. did a demo with Nils and Chris Young from the Modernist Cookbook, and then
+
+[20:10] emceed the awards with Chris Young. We went to a lot of barbecue, but that's the only Austin song I know, even though it's like one of the biggest music towns in the city, Austin Prison. And then my favorite part about it is Johnny Cash goes, a crazy screaming lynch mob waited in the streets of Austin, which we didn't quite get to, but great
+
+[20:27] song. You had Johnny Cash fan, Harold? I am. Yeah. gotta be. Got to love Johnny Cash. One of my great musical regrets is I never got to see Johnny Cash before he died live. So I've seen many of my, many of my idols, but not, never got to see Johnny Cash. Anyway. Um, Speaking of Chris Young and a modernist cuisine, uh, Nastasia, Harold, maybe Chris
+
+[20:50] Young and I and Doug Duda from the uh, ICP. I think Doug's gonna go, are all traveling very soon at the beginning of July down to South Dade, Florida, to have a mango orgy. We're going to eat, well, come on, you can call it that. They have something like 400 variety of mango, several 100 variety of avocado, I
+
+[21:14] believe, upwards of 7, uh, no, 100s of variets of avocado, upwards of 75 varieties of jackfruit. And we're going to do a mega two-day tasting of the type that we have done with, um, citrus and
+
+[21:27] apples. And then, you know, Nastasia and I did with Paris. I pretty excited about it. you Harold? Very much, very much, yes. Got to get into training, though. you know, those are high acid fruits. Oh, my God. I know we should we should probably, we always joke about it. We should probably carry some sort of antacid with us, right? Actually, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. Although, you know, that's that's, hmm, takes care of the stomach, but what about the taste buds? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we're also going to need. I'm going to need to. I'll ship. I need to ship a fruit knife down there, or else check luggage, right? Because we're gonna need a fruit tasting knife. Uh, I'm going to need, uh, I got to figure out a way because we got to pack the avocados. We can't taste the avocados that day. I need a good packing technique. I was thinking maybe film and place. I'm working on it anyway. It's going to be, it's going to be an epic tasting and no one's going to be down there because who the heck wants to be in the very southern tip of Florida.
+
+[22:20] you know, at the beginning of July. It turns out flying my family out after that for like the only family vacation we've ever taken via
+
+[22:28] airplane and I was going to take my kids to the Everglades because my youngest son likes alligators. And then, but I forgot that my older son has a phobia of flying
+
+[22:38] insects, like almost as bad as the girl from the movie Chocolate, but not quite that bad. And I was recounting to my wife last night as we were going to
+
+[22:46] bed how the mosquitoes are like, you know, you know, huge fat mosquitoes that swarm on you like, like, like, I've never seen anything like it. I read a quote yesterday from the Everglades, because I want to take them to the Everglades, that you swing a quart jar and gallon and get a gallon of mosquitoes. And it's true. It's unbelievable. So my wife, my wife was like, Dave, you are an extreme idiot. What made you think we should go to the Everglades at the height of mosquito season? So now we're trying to think of something else to do in South Florida on the way to visit my 92 year old grandpa? Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Um, I'm just excited about the mangoes. I'm going to say about it. And the avocado. I don't Harold, I told you they have an avocado that's seedless and shaped like a banana. Yes, yes. I still don't believe that. I think that's, uh, it's got to be a mythological avocado can't be real. Well, we'll find out. Look, if it's real, I can't believe it hasn't been commercialized. It's absurd because she said that it tastes good. And basically you just score it when it's, you know, when it's hard, and then you let it ripen and you peel it like a banana, which is great because most avocados I find difficult to peel like a banana, to say the
+
+[23:54] least, when they're ripe. Although that might be an interesting idea to prescore an avocado when it's hard, let it ripen and then just peel it off. Of course, then what are you going to do? You can't eat it with a seed like that. dumb, dumb. Anyway. Another thing, Harold, I was doing some reading in Eric Block's garlic book, garlic and alliums. And, uh, you know who has one of the foremost collections of alliums in the world? New York Botanical Garden? New York Botanical Garden. Let's organize a tasting next time you're in New York, huh? If it's a good season, if it's a good season. right? Do you know those guys at all? Uh, I know a couple of people there, yeah. Yeah, that would be an interesting tasting. No one's going to want to get near us, right? Won't invite Nils to that one. He hates he hates raw garlic to test it. Hates it. That's another good thing to do when you have a kitchen handy because you're going to want to cook some of them. Okay, back to the questions. By the way, call on your questions to us or to Harold at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, Ryan Santos writes in with a custard question. Uh, he has an issue this week uh, with a buttermilk custard panna cotta. He's doing an offsite catering event, not his forte, but it's in an air conditioned room, which will have no access to refrigeration during the event. The event is 3 hours. So is a cooked custard safe to sit that long at AC temp, or while I have to ice bath it. If it is safe, what would you suggest to you so that it stays set? I figure gelatin may get too soft over time. A mix of carraginans perhaps. I would not worry about the safety, Harold, would you? I mean, I would not worry about it at all. No, no, because it's been thoroughly cooked, and it's air conditioned room, so it's not going to be that hot, and 3 hours, a 3 hour event. Yeah, that sounds sounds safe. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm totally okay with that. Um, you know, if you if you're worried about the gelatin, which you might be, especially during transportation and whatnot, uh, I would, uh, use, um, you would
+
+[25:52] use uh, Carraginan's, um, it, the reason to use carraginans and milk-based systems is that it takes a preposterously small amount of
+
+[26:01] carragin to set a milk-based system. So you're going to want to use a very little amount. Otherwise it's going to be too hard. Kappa is going to be brittle. An iota is going to be soft. Um, you could use a mix since most kerrgeans are mixed anyway. Iota is good because if it should break, it'll reform along that line, so it might prevent cracking or anything like that. If you find that you're using just kappa carragin and it's too hard, you can add a little bit of locust being gum, which is going to soften it up a little bit.
+
+[26:26] Any thoughts on that, Harold? That sounds good. You can also go the old-fashioned way, use a little bit of starch or flour. See? See? Old-fashioned way. See? This is why we need someone tempering this show. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, all this simple stuff. I'm like, go get a bunch of carragin and mix it in. Um, yeah. Also, the one thing I always say was safety with hydrocollage. don't know if it's been proven or heraldly you've done any further research, but a while ago there was some work saying that perhaps kappa carraginen is not necessarily um 100%
+
+[27:03] uh safe to use uh from a carcinogen standpoint in uh very acid
+
+[27:08] systems. But I doubt that buttermilk is acid enough for it to really be a problem. Your thoughts on that? Um, yeah, I haven't looked at it recently, but that sounds correct also, as you say, it's a tiny quantity, and it's a dessert, and so people aren't going to be getting a whole lot, certainly a lot less than somebody's going to get
+
+[27:27] if they eat some seaweed. Right. Chew on some, uh, yeah. Yeah, don't go out and get the seaweed, squeeze a bunch of lime over it and start chomping on it. Although, you know what? Like I haven't seen anything on that research in a long, long time. So I'm wondering whether or not it's um, uh, whether or not it's even current research. Yeah, I'll take a look at that today. Get back to... cool. Speaking of current research. So, you know, the most recent post, although it's like 2 weeks old now, that I have on the
+
+[27:57] site is my defensive translutaminates. And this guy writes in and and says, uh, you know, basically that his wife has had a whole bunch of uh, gastrointestinal problems and
+
+[28:13] surgeries. And, um, and she really liked to eat chicken McNuggets, literally chicken
+
+[28:21] McNuggets and cheap, cheap cuts of meat. And I can't guarantee that it wasn't TG that did it to her. And of course I can't. You know what I mean? I also can't guarantee it wasn't space people that did it. You know what I mean? I can't prove a negative, like it's crazy. You know what I mean? Um, But something I just want to say about this is that, uh, everywhere on the internet. And this is the, this is as much as I think the internet's literally the greatest tool that has ever been given to us in terms of anything, really, but cooking as well.
+
+[28:54] Um, there's so much crap that gets uh, propagated,
+
+[28:59] like, continuously propagated uh, on the internet. Uh, and I guess the same thing happened actually back in the, uh, in actual literature. Like you've traced like the searing myth, famously traced the searing myth, and it just keeps on getting propagated, you know, writer after writer after writer until somebody squashes it. Everyone says that Chicken McNuggets are made with translutaminates. And the fact that the matter is, chicken the chicken McNuggets were 1st released onto the scene in 1980, before microbial transglutaminates was available, and I guarantee you they weren't using guinea pig liver transglutaminates because it's too expensive and
+
+[29:38] it needs calcium to work, you do not need transgutaminates to make a chicken McNugget.
+
+[29:44] Nowhere have I ever been able to find any reference that even obliquely says that McDonald's uses transglutaminates in their chicken McNugget formulation. Now, I'm willing to... they could use it. That's a way to do it, but it's by no means necessary. And so, I wish people would stop saying that, you know, TG is the reason, you know, McNuggets, how McNuggets came to
+
+[30:10] be, because it's just not true. Even if there is TG in the formulation now. Um, you know, these people just get all bent out of shape about stuff that they have no data
+
+[30:19] about. You know, what do you have you ever heard of TG being used in a McNugget? Um, I have to confess, I haven't read a lot about Chicken McNuggets. Uh, uh, either way. Um, but, you know, people have been sticking odd scraps of meat together for millennia.
+
+[30:40] Uh, and I mean, that's essentially how sausages work, right? You, you salt chunks of meat and that draws some of the myasin out of
+
+[30:49] the, um, the meat and myasin is a sticky protein and things stick together and it's as simple as that. Yep, boom. No TG required. You know? Uh, and it's, uh, you know, it's called uh, the primary bind when you're making sausages and it's how it works. It's how it's always worked. Um, you know, and I'm sure that they have a chicken McNugget batter, that they have like some kind of blended chicken with salt, some pieces, and they just keep folding it until the, until, uh, you know, the
+
+[31:20] myosin's developed, and then it'll stick in whatever shape they want. I mean, no problem. Uh, and it's a lot, uh, cheaper than using transglutamines. And from a production standpoint, they don't have to worry about setting times or setting rates.
+
+[31:35] So it's probably easier for them to not use it in that in that application. So, you know, that's one of those things I wish people would just do a little bit, like even like a tiny bit of
+
+[31:46] research. But if you look everywhere, it says nuggets. Now, an interesting one is Sirimi. So Sirimi, right, is uh, like fish, like basically it's kind of, if you read about how Sirimi is made, it's kind of horrific. Wouldn't you agree, Harold? I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of just horrible. like they deflavor, uh, they de-aromatize and and, you know, wash any normal kind of flavor out of like whatever kind of fish
+
+[32:12] scrap, crap they have lying around. And then, you know, uh, basically regell it again in uh, kind of serimi
+
+[32:20] shapes, and they're formally were made without transgutaminates, um, although there's evidence that there's endogenous, meaning, uh, you know, already occurring
+
+[32:31] transglutaminates, it might have some that add to some of the gelling capability of the fish mix.
+
+[32:36] But there is true that in current serimi applications, an attempt to use fish that don't have a high enough gelling power to make an adequate serimi on their own, that they are adding transplutaminates to it, but don't blame
+
+[32:51] serimi on transgutaminates, just, you know, the attempt to extend it even further.
+
+[32:55] Yeah, are you a big Cirimi guy, Harold? You know, I actually kind of enjoy it every once in a while. It's got that nice kind of bouncy texture to it. Um, so, you know, a slice on top of some ramen with, with, uh, the other stuff. I I kind of like that a lot. Also, you would have no California roll without the serimi, right? That's right Yeah. Because if you just use avocado and if you were to use shrimp instead of serimi, it wouldn't be right, right? That's right. And I couldn't eat it. Oh, right. Yeah. Wait, that's an interesting question. They do they only use fish in Serimi or do they ever put the, do they ever put other things like shrimp into it? And if they did, is it so thoroughly washed? that any protein that's causing you a problem is washed away from it? Well, I think the, uh, the protein that causes me, the problem is actually a component of the muscle, um, uh, the set of muscle
+
+[33:54] proteins. It's tropomyosin. So I have a feeling it would stick around, uh, even through the the streaming processing. But the whole point of the stream is that you use really, really cheap, uh, like
+
+[34:06] pollock or something like that to make something like crab or shrimp. And, um, so I think it's, uh, the idea of actually using crab or shrimp or some kind of crustacean in the servee is just, uh,
+
+[34:19] it's against the whole idea of streaming in the 1st place. Again, again good insight. All right. Can you stick around for one more cycle of this? All right, calling your questions too. 718-497-2128. It's 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Guitars are too good and firm feeling women. I don't need my name in the marquee lights. I got my son, got you with me tonight. Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love. Let's go to look in my Texas, wailing in Willie and the boys. This successful life for living, not as futile like the headfields and macaws. Between Make ribs, paint songs, Newberries, train, songs, and blue eyes, crying in rain. I'm looking by text. Ain't nobody feeling nowhere.
+
+[35:37] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage radio network. Every Sunday at 4.30 PM, tune in to Burning Down the House. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house, a weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed,
+
+[35:51] admired, and despised. Each week, Curtis B. Wayne, your host, invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers, and other architecture themes to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms.
+
+[36:06] Again, that's every Sunday at 430 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Jack cued that song just right. Waylon Jennings, Lucenbach, Texas, another classic, right? From our Texas theme thing, that song is great. In fact, Whalen, you know, Jennings unfortunately died way too young, but the person I used to play bass with in my high school band is in his
+
+[36:31] son Shooter's band. Pre cool, right? Shooter Jenny. I've never seen Nastasia look so excited on the show. Jeez. okay. You know, Nastasia doesn't really much. Nastasia doesn't like stories, really, or people. So she doesn't like country music much. Is this accurate, except for Merle. Now you like Merle. I just don't like hearing the story over and over and over. the same story. Harold, can you believe this? You know, what am I? People, this is, this is, this is what I, this is what I put up with people. This is what I put up with. anyway. Okay. A question actually posted on, and I'll rip through this one quick, but it's of interest to some people. KDHP wrote into the blog, actually, has a question hoping we can give the answer. I received a country hand for a Christmas gift. I was told you can store them almost indefinitely. So I put it in my refrigerator. Now I'm told I should have stored it in the cupboard. My question is, did I ruin it and have I stored it too long? Any answers would be appreciated? Well, I don't know how long you stored it. Christmas, right? Oh, Christmas gift. No, no, no. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. If you've already cut into it, you might get some mold. Here's the problem. American country hams are a little soft in the middle, because of the way they're cured typically, unless they're really, really aged. So if it's already been cut into, you might get some kind of unfriendly green mold or some kind of like
+
+[38:00] Brie like Candida mold right on that face. And unless it's penetrated so far into the meat that you get an off flavor on the inside, you can just cut a little bit of that off, scrub any other mold off the
+
+[38:10] offside outside of the meat, and I'd be more worried about the fat picking up flavors from the fridge. Next time, freeze it or if you want to age it more, hang it. I wouldn't put it in the cupboard because mites really like
+
+[38:24] dark kind of cool places to chew on ham. And I've had that happen. What do you think, Harold? You ever stored meat for a long time? Uh, yeah. I kept the country ham for like a couple of months, downstairs at my place. You know, I'm in San Francisco, which is uh, cool to cold year round. So I don't have, uh, some of the problems you'd have other parts of the country. But, um, yeah, in, in the cool, in, in the not completely dark, but sunny dark, um, kept for months for fine. Yeah. Yeah. I had one that I stored literally in a cupboard, and when I opened up the bag, it was like might, might central. You know, once you, I once had like 10 to 15 hams in my house and one of them had a mite problem, which is common, but they usually
+
+[39:15] they, they do a, uh, they gas the mites out, um, in, um, in production. And, uh, uh, and once you have them in your house, like, it's the next time you bring a hand in, it just chews up the hand. But I would not worry about that ham other than any sort of, I mean, the fridge is problematic from an aroma standpoint, right? And that's pretty much it. Uh, yeah, yeah. But speaking of ham mites, I've never experienced ham mites, did they do anything interesting
+
+[39:43] to the flavor, the way cheese mites do to cheese? Uh, interesting question. Um, I've never thought about it that much because I usually trim away the mighty
+
+[39:56] area. I've never done like just a tasting of it. They say it makes it bitter, but of course they say the same thing about cheese mites. There's the famous mite cheese. I think from Austria, Austria or Germany where they take
+
+[40:09] Fark, and they let it age in mites, until it's basically a big pile of might. Have you ever tasted that stuff? The mite cheese? I haven't tasted that, but in France, there's a, uh, you know, a tome de savoir, uh, kind of dry, uh, long aged, uh, cow's milk keys from the mountains uh, in the eastern part of the country. There's a version of that called Tomme de Savoie, Cyronay. Uh, uh, Cyranay means, uh, eaten by mites. And I went to some farmers markets when I lived in France, and you could, you know, approaching the market from the parking lot. You could smell it. From uh, from the edge of the lot. I would just follow my nose and I actually find that that aroma delicious. So, I know some people can't stand it, but there are people who do appreciate it. So I wonder whether you can get the same kind of effect from am. Huh. Is it was it is it bitter at all? Is it part bitterness to the cheese? Um, yeah, I don't think so. No, I don't, I'm thinking back now to the times I've had it, which are many. And, uh, it's, it's mainly an aroma thing. And, um, you know, you don't want to actually eat the, the frass, you know, the,
+
+[41:24] the stuff that the mites have actually chewed on, but they, they
+
+[41:29] produce this compound. I think it's a pheromone. You know, they use it for signaling, signaling each other, and it gets into the meat of the cheese itself,
+
+[41:38] and it's delicious. Huh. Well, you know, the one from either Austria or Germany that's done with Clark, you actually, I think, eat the mites. Like it's basically, it's like mites all the way through. Um, I'd be interested to try. I want to try both now. Isn't Nastas, is this your worst nightmare? It is. Yeah, yeah. Nastasia, another, this should just be like the Nastasia Quirk show. She can't look at leaves that are deformed. She can't look at deformed leaves. Spore. Spore. Yes. Okay. Hey, Harold, I don't know whether I've talked to you about this, but I think I did briefly. The last time I did the sous vide low temp class. I had a bunch of big crew from South America. We had a couple from Brazil and, you know, did different countries. I forget where else did. Anyway. But they said that there's a tradition down there of storing raw meat under
+
+[42:33] oil. Have we talked about this? No. Yeah, have you ever heard of this? I haven't, no. So raw meat, uh, just submerged under oil and any kind of oil. I guess. And then, and then afterwards, they cook it as a storage technique as kind of a pre-refrigeration kind of storage technique, but I said, is it cured like a
+
+[42:57] Cecina, you know, like Mexican salt beef? Uh, and they said, no, it's not
+
+[43:02] cured. And then, I mean, maybe there was a language barrier. I said, is it cooked? And they said, no, it hasn't been like a, you know, like a, like a reiet or a confit. And they said, no, it hasn't been cooked. And I was like, well, do you die when you eat it? And they said, no. But, I mean, a couple of things, I guess, is that, I mean, I don't know if they actually do salt before they put it under. But if you're going to cook the bejesus out of it, I mean, you're going to kill most everything that's going to grow in there is going to be heat labile, right? And it should ferment anyway before anything else happens because it's such a high water content, it should ferment and get kind of lactic, which should also knock back
+
+[43:43] the, uh, the botulism and all that crap, right? Yeah, yeah. Very interesting though, yeah. I've never, never heard of that before. And my other weird South American question for you, is, are you aware of the, of the,
+
+[44:01] the, traditional freeze dried, uh,
+
+[44:07] like Inca potatoes? Yes, uh-huh. Yeah. You ever try that? Remind me of the name? Chai Chunio Blanco? Chunio, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, for those of you that aren't aware of it. I want any recipe that doesn't taste like a goat's, a goat's private parts because this or how I imagine it
+
+[44:29] goats dirty private parts to taste. It smells like a barnyard, but like, like, hay that's been pooped on, like goat. Anyway, could be sheep. I haven't been around a farm enough to really distinguish goat from sheep, aroma alone. And the um, uh, the way they make this is they take potatoes, these special, I
+
+[44:50] think, somewhat bitter mountain potatoes. They let them freeze overnight, then they thaw. I think they do that a couple times and then they throw it in a sack in a well for like 30, 40 days. Then they pull it out and then they let it dehydrate a couple of times with a couple more free star cycles. And I was really excited to try them. You just boil them and then like put cheese over them and eat them like that. But God, were they horrible? They've got to be they've got to taste better. People like them, there has to be a way to cook it so that it's good. Only the Japanese fermented soybean nato is, it's the only ingredient I've ever come across that I can't imagine being used to good effect somehow. Oh, no, no, no, no. I had the greatest nato just a few days ago, actually. Yeah. You haven't had the fresh stuff. Right? I, I need to bring that next time we get together because there, there's now a company here in Northern California who's making
+
+[45:43] it, uh, everything we get in this country essentially comes from Japan and it's frozen and it's weeks old and it's not that
+
+[45:50] good. But there's somebody here now making it fresh and it's, it's really wonderful. Okay, so it doesn't taste like coffee grounds and garbage. Uh, it does not. No, no. So I will, I will rescind my judgment. I've never had that particular version of Chuno. I have had a version that I think is not sort of anaerobically fermented like that. Um, you know, it's just been essentially, uh, freeze, freeze dried over, you know, several repeated cycles and left in the sun. And that's, it's got a, you know, distinctive kind of flavor, kind of old, um, you know, a veteran potato flavor, but it doesn't have
+
+[46:35] off flavors that you're describing. So maybe there are just different versions of 2 nails that, uh, and it sounds as though that, that wasn't
+
+[46:42] just too, no. there was some of prefix on the front of that. Uh, well, I think it was just like white, white chunio. I think it was just Chunio Blanco or something like that. Oh, okay. But it sounds like we need a Chunio expert, huh? Yeah, yeah. I think there are other versions of it. Yeah, it's hard to do hard to do the research on that on the webs. There's not that much information out there. All right, so let's. Oh, yeah. Oh, she's right across the river. Maybe next time, maybe next time you're in, we can see whether she can produce it for us in a way that's, you know, good. Yeah. All right, so let's round out today with someone sent in a, um, uh, Eddie
+
+[47:25] Denell sent in something from The Daily, which is, I guess, a new iPad-based news service, uh, written, um, and I can't
+
+[47:32] pronounce uh, the person's name, so I'm not going to mangle it, but it's called the other white meat, and it's a story
+
+[47:38] about uh, Zeimer's Meats in Illinois, uh, and they're serving lion. And it's basically an expose on this company. And the reason, I guess it was sent to our blog is because, you know, a year and a half ago or
+
+[47:54] so we did a, uh, we did a piece on, uh, cooking exotic meats, right? So yak was delicious, lion tastes like pork, beaver is delicious. you know, et cetera, et cetera. raccoon. We didn't like so much. I didn't like bear, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, uh, so, um, basically, uh, this guy, uh, Zeimer's, if you call him, like, he says it's all legit, which is why we ordered from him, uh, uh, further research has shown that he, um, basically served, uh, sold endangered animals
+
+[48:32] illegal, endangered animals, tigers as lions, uh, knowingly and went to jail for it. And he says that he just copped a plea because that's what his lawyers told him to do. But if you call him up, uh, and you talk to him, his attitude isn't, I try to be extremely vigilant to make sure this doesn't happen and something
+
+[48:50] slipped through. His attitude is much more like, um, well, I don't do a DNA test on the
+
+[48:57] animal, and, you know, you know, I don't, I don't want to get into this other guy's business who's handing me the animal. So if he says it's lying, it's lying, right? And when you're dealing with things that are right on the edge of what are going to get you death threats from people on the telephone, like it pays, I think, be a little more
+
+[49:14] vigilant. Um, but, you know, uh, I don't know. And so I guess, Eddie, I was aware of that, which is why we don't order from that supplier anymore. We don't have a supplier actually right now of those kinds of meat. Lion does in fact taste like pork, but it is, it's hard. It's hard to cook, actually, because it, uh, even though it has very little connective tissue in it, it's extremely
+
+[49:41] tough, and I don't know why, uh, even if fairly, fairly low temperatures. But maybe we can round this out with an ethical discussion of eating things like lion
+
+[49:49] meat. I don't, I mean, I don't know how you feel about this, Harold, but if the animal is not endangered, I don't understand why any one living creature has more dignity than any other living creature. Um, you know, uh, we have certain feelings for animals that, you know, have served as well, like horses and dogs over the millennia, but pigs have also served as well, are incredibly smart, and we slaughter them by the by the bushel. Do you know what I mean? Um, So I don't know, what do you have any thoughts on this kind of moral ethical question or is it too deep to bring
+
+[50:21] in? You weren't expecting to get put on the spot with this kind of thing or? Well, no, I would, I guess I would agree with you in general,
+
+[50:29] that the animals we already eat are, uh, uh, they, they have a lot going for them too. And so unless we're going to sit back and kind of re-examine, uh, things from, uh, from scratch, uh, as long as we're a meat eating
+
+[50:47] culture, and these animals are not endangered, um, then I think it's, it's fair to, uh, to taste them as long as they're not, you know, um, that they haven't been obtained in, in,
+
+[50:59] um, in shady ways. Although you bring up an interesting point, which is the animals get something out of it too. And there's the kind of classic argument that domestic animals that are raised for food have, you know, somehow entered a bargain with us, you know, where we take care of
+
+[51:15] them. We provide them shelter and forage in something that is approximating approximating, you know, something that's good for their well-being in exchange. We kill them early, but maybe not necessarily earlier than they would have died anyway in the wild. And this is the argument for one of the arguments for why factory farming is
+
+[51:33] horrible other than taste, which is the argument, you know, taste and humanity, which is, you know, the ones I argue, usually in that order. Uh, but against factory farming versus uh, old style farming. But, you know, maybe there's also something to that and people's reaction in that typically these lions haven't been stored in the best kind
+
+[51:50] of, uh, uh, situations. They're usually like penned up and they're kept for various crazy reasons by various crazy people. And then, uh, you know, afterwards or basically, uh, executed for their, uh, for their fur and then the meat becomes a
+
+[52:06] byproduct, which we then use. So you know, maybe there's something there. I don't know Yeah, no, it is complicated if the animals are being kept and slaughtered for other
+
+[52:16] reasons. Um, then, you know, it's kind of like the argument for, uh, for use, for using all of the animal when you slaughter
+
+[52:25] a pig or a lamb, uh, if the meat's going to go to waste, otherwise, then why not put it to
+
+[52:32] use? Why not nourish someone with it? Right, exactly. Exactly. And to me, you know, once you accept the fact that
+
+[52:39] we, as a median culture, are allowed to kill the animal, then, you know, you've entered into, you've entered into a zone where you're allowed to kill the animal to eat it. Right? And so, um, you know, uh, I don't, and like I said before, I don't see a lion as a, as a more august entity, you know, from from a, you know, a brain standpoint than a, uh, than a, than a
+
+[53:05] pig, just because we grew up admiring lions and not pigs, uh, doesn't really change that in my
+
+[53:11] book. But, um, Anyway, uh, Harold, thank you so much for being on. You have any last things that you want other than we're going to eat the heck out of some mangoes in about a month? No, I'm really looking forward to that. And was very glad for this. I mean, you, you, uh, texted me, what, uh, 10 hours ago? Yeah, and it was a lot of fun. Anytime. Oh, really? You shouldn't say that because we'll take you up on them. love having you on the show. No, it was great. A lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you, Harold, and thanks for listening to cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[54:09] Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[54:15] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Oh, twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Vicious, fish. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. All of the trade papers are just buzzing with the information that
+
+[54:37] Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook, has decided that he is only going to eat food that he himself has killed, as in proteins. So thus far, he's killed a goat, a pig, and some fish, but he's
+
+[54:53] going to start hunting, he says, so that he can, you know, basically be more mindful of what he is putting in his mouth and into
+
+[55:01] his body. And um, to quote a CNN money article. He says this year, my personal challenge is around being thankful for the food I have to eat.
+
+[55:10] I think many people forget that a living being has to die for you to eat meat. So my goal revolves around not letting myself forget that, and being thankful for what I have. This year, I've basically become a vegetarian since the only meat I'm going to eat, is from animals I've killed myself. And thus far, this has been a good experience. I'm eating a lot healthier foods, and I've learned a lot more about sustainable farming and the raising of animals. This has been behind the scenes food news, with Kate and Keeper.
+
+[55:42] Aaron Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco host unfiltered Heritage Radio Network's very own wine program. 's a small clip. I will say that I tasted a lot of wines, and I went to Bollinger, and it was the special Couveé, which is, and I'll explain the difference between that and rotor in a minute, but the special Couveé was the most three-dimensional wine that I'd had in my mouth up until that and it was actually pretty much one of the only ones of the day really spectacular. And it's made, I'll just say, in a different style, from rotor, because it is a certain portion of the blend every
+
+[56:23] year. and their style is aged in barrels and it gives it more of a toasty, fuller style. And it's really, you know, it's a big sham. masculine champagne. I tried to get away, stay away from that, but it's true. James Bond, the whole thing. But it's a it's a big wine. It's a great food wine. Want to hear more? Well, tune in every Tuesday at 4 p.m. live to unfiltered or check out the old episodes in our archives. Also, make sure to subscribe to the podcast in iTunes. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's
+
+[0:16] in their studio because they talk to people who are serious about food, and that's what we are at Fairways. We're serious about food. We just care very deeply about, about you as a, as a customer and how you
+
+[0:29] cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support
+
+[0:34] heritage radio because it, it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's, that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're going to find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on
+
+[0:59] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark.
+
+[1:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues here on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues in the studio today at Roberta's with Nastasia Hammer Lopez, coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. How you doing today, Nastasia? Okay. Yeah? So next week, am I in the studio or am I in Los Angeles next week, assuming I can get this all straightened out? think you're in Los Angeles? I'm not here at all. Where are you? You're off the planet? You're on like the last space shuttle mission? Where are you going? I told you, I'm going to Rhode Island. Rhode Island, yeah. Well, it's kind of not here. Anyway, we might be doing the show from Los Angeles next week. I'm not sure. We'll keep you posted by a tweet. Call in all of your cooking related questions, technical or not, too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, so let's take some of the questions we got emailed. I got a question from Eric Zawaki. Uh, He says, I was sketching out an idea for pork belly dish to replicate the feeling of being at a barbecue spot using the sense of
+
+[2:21] smell. Thought of using one of the electric water pipes used for. He says, you know what, but it's for marijuana. It's like, what they are is, they're actually, well, I'll finish the question. Uh, used for you, know what? But instead of herbal medicine, i.e. marijuana, there would be applewood chips in the
+
+[2:36] bowl, and then the smoke generator would be shot into an upside down serving vessel, stemless wine glass, for instance, covering a dish so that when
+
+[2:43] he opened its service, it would emit the smell of being in a place with a barbecue smoke pit.
+
+[2:47] All right, so what we're talking about here is back in the 80s, they developed these little
+
+[2:53] miniature or 80s, yeah, 80s. They developed these little miniature electric vacuum cleaners that were powered with
+
+[2:58] AA batteries, and they were for geeks like myself. I owned several that, so you could vacuum out your keyboards and small parts and electronics and crap like that.
+
+[3:07] So, and then some enterprise, so there were supposed to be vacuum machines, vacuum cleaners, miniature.
+
+[3:12] And some enterprising but extremely lazy pothead who couldn't take the trouble to inhale the smoke from their pipe because they were
+
+[3:20] so they were so stoned that they couldn't literally could not inhale. Uh, said, dude, I could put the batteries in this sucker backwards and it will run
+
+[3:30] backwards and instead of being a vacuum, it will uh, suck the, it
+
+[3:35] will, it will shoot smoke. And so what they did is they screwed a, they burnt and screwed a bowl, you know, like a pot bowl,
+
+[3:41] little one on the top of this vacuum cleaner, uh, and then ran it backwards and shot marijuana smoke out of the out of the pipe,
+
+[3:47] right? So that's where we were from, you know, I don't know, sometime in the 90s, probably up until the very early 2000s, when a group of chefs started using them as smokers, right? So the most famous chef that I know that uses it and used it fairly early was Juan
+
+[4:04] Rocca. I saw them do a presentation at Madrid Fusion, I believe, in 2005 or 4 or something like that. And they famously took these, uh, took these things and would, uh,
+
+[4:16] do basically what you're saying, uh, Eric, which is they would, they would inject smoke under a cloche under like, you know, a serving dish, and then the dish would be completely
+
+[4:24] obscured. And then when you lifted the dish up, the smoke would go out and you'd have this sensation of smoke and a really awesome visual effect
+
+[4:31] and a really good kind of going from not seeing to seeing with the
+
+[4:35] cloche only instead of being metal at being glass. So it's very famous presentation works extremely well. I've seen it demonstrated a couple times. I've never eaten it. Harold McGee and Wiley have both had it and they said it was a good dish. Another thing that these guys did was they took a, like a little glass, almost like a, looks like a gravy boat, but with a flat top, and they sealed plastic around it. And then they poked a little hole in it, and they put the smoke into that with a little hole, and
+
+[5:02] then every time your spoon hit the dish, it would send up a little smoke
+
+[5:06] ring, that was also a really good presentation, really cool. And people also use it for smoking things like you'd wrap something inside of, let's say, a bowl or a tammy with
+
+[5:17] a plastic wrap, inject the smoke, and let's sit. Personally, I don't think that it has the same effect as actual smoking because the smoke is static. You're not constantly generating it. And after a while, the smoke's gonna settle out. I don't think it's the same as actual smoking. The other problem is the pothead vacuum cleaners are tend to be built not that well, but
+
+[5:36] they're, um, and they tend to burn out and there's, there's kind of problems with it melting and getting overly hot. Philip Preston at polyscience makes one that's kind of more robo and built for cooking. I don't know what he called. He calls it the smoking gun. So he sells one that's kind of meant to stand up to kitchenware. The one I went to, I don't know what the kids call them nowadays. We call them a head shop, right? where you go and you buy pot paraphernalia, you know, but you have to pretend that you're using it for
+
+[5:59] tobacco, otherwise they won't sell it to you. If you say, I need something to use with marijuana. I can't say that to me, man. You know what I mean? But if you tell them that, you know, I'm going to smoke tobacco in this thing, then they can sell it to you. Anyways. So like, um, you go to those, you buy one, but don't expect those ones to last too long, they they leak and
+
+[6:17] uh, they they melt because they, you know, whatever. They're not they're not high quality, as my son would say. They're they're low quality products. Anyway, so I hope that helps. Okay. Ryan Santos wrote in and he says he's looking for some guidance in cooking, pork blade steaks, sous vide. They're crazy marbled fatty. I was thinking of trying more of a pork belly type approach than a pork chop steak kind of approach. Any insight would be appreciated. Well, I've never actually cooked. So basically what the blade steak is. I mean, if I'm right about this, which I assume I am, is it's basically a steak cut from the pork shoulder, not the picnic shoulder, but basically the front shoulder of the
+
+[6:53] pig and has a little bit of the blade, the, you know, blade bone in it. And I have cooked whole pork shoulder before, and it works quite well. But, you know, I've never cooked just a blade steak that way. The problem with any of these kinds of cooking, when you're doing sous vide or low temperature for a long time, is it contains lots of different
+
+[7:13] muscles, and it's very hard to get all the muscles perfect at the same time, because if there's a muscle that has less connective tissue in it, then that muscle is going to lose its texture and get kind of a little mushy by the time the rest of the muscles are going to get are going to get done.
+
+[7:27] And you have that same problem with pork belly as well. Now, with pork shoulder, I don't think you're going to have to go nearly as long as you would have to go for a pork belly, right? So pork shoulder, you know, you can test and see how you like it. I would choose a relatively low temperature, like between, I mean, it depends on how you like your pork, between 58 and 60 Celsius, which is, you know, 140 and below.
+
+[7:49] Although the port camps council still believes that you can cook pork to 160 degrees Fahrenheit and have it be juicy. Do you think that's even possible, nostalgia? that even it's not, it's like physically impossible, right? I mean, like, unless you slather it with some sort of external juice. It's not going to have its own juice. But anyway, so I would cook it between I would cook it between like 138 and 140 Fahrenheit.
+
+[8:12] And you, you know, try cooking it for, see whether or not 12 hours is enough, actually, whether it's, or if that's too chewy, then try it for a
+
+[8:20] day, and if that's too chewy, try it for two. I would not go over 2 days. Honestly, I would probably go for like 24 hours. I like a little texture in my meat, though. I don't want it like 2 kind of mushy. And I pretty sure that some of the muscles in that steak are going to turn kind of fibery mushy. So there's a kind of, when you overcook something low temperature, it doesn't have the same characteristics as overcooked meat in general,
+
+[8:43] overcooked, low temperature meat doesn't go dry, right? It goes, what I, the way I say it's kind of like it just loses its texture and turns mushy. So what'll happen is when you bite into it, like it'll be, uh, the 1st bite will explode kind of
+
+[8:57] with, with juice, but then as you keep chewing, it'll taste almost like little fibers, like a paste, mush in
+
+[9:02] your in your mouth. You've had it before, noastasia. It's an accurate description. And it turns to kind of like just, you know, kind of pace in your mouth. To me, unpleasant. Some people actually don't mind it, but to me, it's like a, it's a huge, it's a huge problem. So that's what overcooking means in low temperature kind of a sous vide environment. Um, but tell us how tell us how it works out because, uh, I'm interested. I've never done it before. It looks like a very inexpensive cut of meat. Another thing I would do is I would cook it in a vacuum. I would suck a kind of a medium kind of a vacuum on. I wouldn't go too hard. I would then take this thing. I would cook it all the way through to whatever tenderness you want, then I would let it cool down,
+
+[9:43] 100% cool down, and then put a righteous hard sear on the outside because you'd want. I think you want to, um, you want to basically have it taste kind of traditional,
+
+[9:54] probably, have a look a real nice crust on the outside and be soft on the inside. I think it would be the way to go. Also, some tests that we've run recently. Don't salt the meat beforehand. This is kind of obvious, and I don't know why I never thought of it before, but we were running a bunch of tests where, and
+
+[10:11] typically, if I'm going to do what's called direct serve, where I'm going to cook it, and then serve it right after it's right after it's been cooked. I will salt the meat before I sear it, and then put it in the bag, and then cook it. Problem is, is that if you're storing the meat for a long time overnight or the next day, the meat's going to get cured and it's going to lose some of its
+
+[10:29] juiciness. It going to get firmer like cured meat. Duh. So the basic rule is if you're going to keep something for a long time, the exception is braises that you're going to cook for a long time, really
+
+[10:40] braises the meat out, in which case you can salt it beforehand because it needs to be seasoned throughout. But if you're going to take a piece of meat and serve it like a steak, you don't want to salt your meat before you serve it, all
+
+[10:51] right? Um, and we'll talk about that in a minute because apparently we have a caller, caller, you were on the air. Hey Dave, how's everything going? going all right. I'm glad to hear that. I got a, you know, quick question. I saw, you know, I've been getting more into fish, and I saw that you had did a little thing on Ikajime, I believe it's called. And it kind of really fascinated me, but I don't fully understand it. How could kind of destroy, it seems like you destroy the spine and something, it makes the fish taste better. Are you, are you, do you fish? I don't fish. I just you know, I'm just now getting into seafood a little bit more. All right. This is a very, this is very glad you asked this question because I just shot something with Dave Chang last week on
+
+[11:29] Ikigima. hadn't done Ikajime work for a while, and then I just came back and did some just this week. this is very, very good question. So, Ikigime is basically just the entire range of Japanese fish killing techniques.
+
+[11:42] And, um, there's a whole range of them, but they're, they basically accomplish 2 things. One, they are meant to bleed out the fish properly, right? Because Japanese fish, they all about getting the blood out of the fish. And the 2nd aspect of it is preserving or enhancing the texture of the fish based on how it's killed. Okay? So there's there's 2 There's, there's, the spinal cord thing is one aspect of Ikejime called shinkenuki. So I was running through all of the techniques. So there's a technique that we haven't experimented with up until now, but it seems like a very good
+
+[12:16] technique, and so I'm going to do it from now on. They make a little curved knife, right? And so the 1st thing you do is you take the live fish and you impale its head with this curved knife and you destroy the brain, right? And so what that does, right? Normally what I would do instead of doing that is just sever the spine, okay, with a knife. right under the gill flap, sever the spine. And what that'll do is disconnect the brain from the rest of the
+
+[12:44] muscles so that the brain's no longer controlling the muscles. Two things, though. One, it takes a little bit to get the knife in there, and also, it takes a lot of force to accurately break the spinal cord
+
+[12:56] there. So you might miss, in which case you're going to cause stress to the muscles. The fish has more of a chance to flop around because you're doing more adjustment while you're doing that. And so there's more chance that you're going to drop the fish, which causes stress to the fish into the muscles. So my new theory, and also when you sever the spinal cord that way, the brain is still alive in the fish. And so if you're going to serve the head, there might be some detrimental effect on the taste of the head, although I don't know this, I haven't studied
+
+[13:20] that. But in general, I think just for humanitarian reasons and also for ease and speed of killing, which equals better flesh reasons, the best thing to do is to take this knife or an ice pick or whatever, go into the
+
+[13:33] brain, right, you know, above and behind the eye, and basically take its brain out, right? Now the brain's gone. Then, I would cut the spinal cord at the top and the bottom when you sever the spinal cord near the tail and near the
+
+[13:46] front. What you're doing is, 1st of all, cutting all of the, you're cutting the connection from the brain to the spinal cords.
+
+[13:54] Now the spinal cord is isolated from the from the brain, right? And that's good for reasons, I'll tell you in a minute. But two, you're severing the blood vessels that run down along the bottom of the spine. And what that allows you to do is really bleed this sucker out. So if you cut just in the front, that's the equivalent of what's called gill cutting, which is what we do kind of traditionally. But if you cut in the front and the back, basically the fish can pump the blood out of its body more efficiently.
+
+[14:16] And eventually we're going to stick it in water, like salted ice water, and then it's going to pump out and pump clean water into its system, and you're going to get
+
+[14:24] a really nice, pure bled out fish, which is what the Japanese really like. They don't like that that taste of what they would call the chi line, which is that bloodline that runs along, like on a fish that you see, the dark stripe in, like a tuna. They would prefer like the lighter flavor of the thing that's been totally bled out, right? So that's the that's the basically the bleeding technique. Now the next technique, the further technique is to then take a needle, thin needle, like a wire, and run it up the spinal cord, right?
+
+[14:51] So not in the center of the spinal cord, but at the bottom of the spine is the blood vessels, and at the top of the spine, is basically where the spinal cord is running. And it's a straight shot all the way up. And so you stick a needle through the spine and it basically wipes out the spine. And that's kind of the interesting technique that because we can kind of intuitively understand what's going on with all of those 1st steps,
+
+[15:12] right? With the bleeding. And, you know, those all kind of make sense. It's this taking out the spinal cord with the needle is a thing that is kind of weird and we don't, like, why would you do that? The answer is, is because the spinal cord, even though the brain is not sending messages to the spinal
+
+[15:29] cord. The spinal cord has its own way of sending out messages to the muscles. There's things called central pattern generators that are in the spinal cord
+
+[15:37] itself, telling the muscles to basically to swim, right? And they don't swim because they're no longer coordinated by the brain, but they're sending impulses to the
+
+[15:46] muscles, causing those muscles to contract. Now, when the muscles are have these impulses going to them to contract. What happens is they lose their energy quicker. The ATP, which is the, which is your energy source in fish muscles and your muscles and my muscles. So, by depleting the ATP, right, as ATP is depleted, and the energy stores and the muscles are depleted, that's what causes the muscles to go into rigor mortis, because rigor mortis basically, you know that you need energy to contract your muscles.
+
+[16:15] You also need energy in the form of ATP to release your muscles. So as you lose ATP in a dead muscle, they just ratchet tighter and tighter and tighter and
+
+[16:24] tighter and they can't unratchet. can't open up. So it turns out that the faster you go into rigor mortis, the faster you deplete your energy, the harder the rigor mortis
+
+[16:34] is. And fish muscle is strong enough to do damage to itself with rigor mortis. So when it comes out of rigor mortis, right? If you haven't shoved the needle up the spine, then your fish turns softer, it's less firm, right? So when you put the needle in the spine, what you're doing is preserving the texture of the fish, you're going to get less gaping in
+
+[16:53] the muscles, less dripping, less weeping, and it's just firmer. The weird thing about Ikigime, and some Western chefs can't wrap their heads around it, is that it takes longer for the fish to be in prime condition after you do Ikigime. Right when you do Ikigime. If you eat any fresh fish that was just killed. It's going to taste kind of almost crunchy. You know, almost like crunchy, like giant clam sushi kind of crunchy, right? Uh, and then um, or like, you know, gia duck or gooey duck, rather, clam, that kind of crunchy. And then you have to let it age. And a Western fish, one that hasn't done had the needle up the spine, is going to come out of rigor faster. And so for a small window, you might prefer it. But when you taste it, you can tell that it has kind of a mushiness that's come from this hard rigor that isn't in the fish that has had the needle gone up the spine.
+
+[17:44] This is especially true of fish that do a lot of swimming, hard swimming. So like stripers, tunas, uh, you know, uh, any any kind of bass, any hard swimming thing, but also things like fluke. You can make a difference. There's some evidence I haven't tested. Every fish that I've tested tastes better with with the needle up the spine. But there's some evidence that certain fish like place, for instance, don't benefit from the spine, but I haven't, I have never tested a fish that didn't benefit, and I've tested blackfish, stripers, hybrid bass,
+
+[18:16] um, uh, what else? Uh, fluke, uh, a bunch. You know what I mean? And so I've never had a fish that didn't benefit. Is this making more sense now? We still, is he off the air? I talk him off the air? I think I talked him off. I took like AT&T cut his cut his phone off by the time I got anyway. So, um, there, like the benefit is huge. The problem is, is that it's big. Well, we have a new color. Well, maybe I'll talk more about Ikjime in a minute because it's a fascinating subject, but we have a new caller, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, this is Andy from Chicago. Hey, how you doing? Good. How you guys say? Doing well, doing well. I didn't get to Chicago this year for the NRA. I missed it. How was it? Did you go to the Internet? I did not go. not in the industry myself. So I missed it. I heard it was pretty big, though. Yeah, I love going to Chicago because I really like I really like eating in Chicago. It's a great eating town, so, and I like walking around in Chicago, so I'm sorry I missed it. Anyway. Yeah, great town. I'm actually really excited. I got reservations to a Linea in August, so I'm pretty pumped about that. Oh, great restaurant. You ever been there before? It'll be my 1st time, but, you know, Grant's been getting all that press recently, and I saw it on Bizarre Foods, too. so pretty excited. Yeah, I've been reading a lot about it. Yeah, get ready because like if you get the full tasting and the wine, you're there for hours and they're going to roll you out in a barrel, you know what I mean? You're going to be like... Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. We're doing the whole, you know, the ultra bangs. You have an early reservation? Uh, I think it might be like a 6.30 or something like that. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah, do a couple of meetings, right? Yeah, no, well, I once did that thing at like 9.30 at night, uh, and had the full tasting and the entire kitchen wanted to Ikigime made me stick a knife in my head because they, we weren't out of there until like 2.30 in the morning anyway. Wow, wow. Yeah, we're definitely on the earlier side. But I think I might have to take the day off from the next day. Yeah, recover. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what's your question? My question about curing salt. I'm doing a prosciutto style ham in my attic right now and uh, when I, when I got to ham last December, I went over to the spice house in Chicago, which is a great spice house, and they only had one type of curing sauce. I forget which it was, but the guy there said that the other kind, which is essentially saltpeter, was illegal, to sell in the United States, which I didn't think was true, but, uh, you know, so I got the, I got the one he
+
+[20:41] had, and, uh, you know, I'm just, I'm just wondering, what, what's the difference between the nitrate and the
+
+[20:45] nitrite? Which one is saltpeter and why would he have claimed it was illegal in the United States or somehow not able to be
+
+[20:52] sold? Uh, yeah, well, he's wrong kind of on both counts. You are lucky to live near a place called Butcher Packer. If you're going to get stuff for curing. You should deal with the guys at Butcher Packer. They're really good, and they will sell to you, not just to kind of industry types, and they have all the
+
+[21:11] different things. There's there's 2 There's a bunch of different things you can buy, right? The 2 curing salts that they're sold are either called insecure one or insecure 2 or prague powder one or prague powder 2. and there's another thing you can buy called Morton's Tender Quick, right? Most of them, the Insecure One and the Prague One, and the Tenderquick have as their base, nitrite, sodium nitrite, right?
+
+[21:35] Saltpeter, like, is an old form of nitrates that can be used, but, you know, sodium nitrate, right, is not the same
+
+[21:44] as like what they would say, saltpeter, straight saltpeter. Sodium nitrate is not illegal, right? The effect of battery is. You're only supposed to use nitrate, right? on things like country hams or like prosciutto.
+
+[21:59] If, well, you know, in Italy, they don't use nitrates at all in the, in the prosciutto, you know, uh,
+
+[22:04] protective department, things like that. But in an American country ham, and there are some American country ham people that don't use nitrates either, right? But the deal is that think of nitrate, right? Which is like the insecure two, right? Think of nitrate as kind of time release nitrite. Because what happens is, is that you rub the cure into the surface of the
+
+[22:27] meat and the nitrite, right, gets used up fairly quickly as it goes
+
+[22:33] through. Turns to NO, does its curing thing, right? The nitrate. Right. The nitrate then takes longer to convert to nitrite, which then converts to, you know, the NO, which does
+
+[22:45] its, which does its thing. So nitrates are long acting nitrites. And they're only used on whole muscle cut, long cured items like country legs. Right. So you never use a nitrate on like a bacon or on anything like that,
+
+[23:02] um, because those are usually pumped or even if they're not pumped, they don't need to cure that long. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. So if I went with the sort of more quick release version, you know, obviously
+
+[23:14] there, I would, I would imagine there's slightly more risk of, you know, botulism or something like that,
+
+[23:19] but, you know, as long as the rest of it's done properly and cured properly, it should be okay,
+
+[23:23] right? Well, you're they're not really going to get, um, you know, watch. someone's going to come and say that I'm wrong, but you're not really going to get botulism in something like a ham. You're going to get botulism in something like a sausage or like a sausage where it's mixed
+
+[23:38] together. First of all, like hams are sufficiently dried and sufficiently
+
+[23:43] salted, supposedly, to get rid of any risk of botulism, right?
+
+[23:48] The nitrites, in the nitrates and the nitrites, do a couple of things. They ensure that you're going to get that cured color, right? That cured color will come just from long aging, right? Which is why you don't need it for prosciutto de Parma, or for American country hams, if you age it long enough. But if you have a shorter aged ham. If you've ever seen a shorter aged ham, when you cut it, parts of the area will be kind of gray and they were undercured, right? And so you can you can see that that kind of thing happening, but you're still not going to get botulism because the inside of the meat, unless you hit it with a
+
+[24:20] knife, is relatively sterile, right? And plus, you know, the whole thing. You guys are so heavily salted and, you know, should be okay. If it's done right, yeah. So it's if it's in your attic, right, the ham, then assuming that your attic is not really air conditioned,
+
+[24:37] right, during the summer, if it gets hot, does it get hot? It gets, I mean, we have an AC but it still stays relatively warm up there. Like what? Like, you know, probably 80, something like that. Okay. So you're getting close to American country ham temperatures. I mean, one of the primary differences between prosciutto and, you know, Italian style prosciutto and an American style, right, is
+
+[25:01] the temperature and the humidity. So an American ham is going to be done in a fairly high humidity, fairly high temperature
+
+[25:07] environment. Think Virginia in the summertime. You know what I mean? Or think. And by the way, just because you don't smoke it doesn't mean that it's not an American style because many American hams are not smoked, right? you know, plenty of them. So, you know, that's kind of just a choice that people may. How old is it right now? Right now it's about 6 months, 6, 7 months, something right around there. I got it in late December and it started hanging in in like early January, basically. Nice. Is it hanging upside down or is it hot pointed down or is it hot pointed up? No, it's hot up in a prosciutto style. I weighted it as I salted it, so it's got that nice flat, you know, prosciutto, uh, look to it, but it's, uh, you hock up. Right. You might want to, um, lard over the face of the meat at this point. Okay. How long ago did you do that? I did it pretty early on actually. Right. I mean, you want to let some of the moisture come out of it beforehand, but then when you lard over the face,
+
+[26:04] now you're stopping a lot of the moisture from leaving on that side, and that's one of the things that Americans don't do that I wish they did do because the face side of the meat gets too dry.
+
+[26:14] But you didn't debone it yet, though, right? Bone still in? No, bone still in, yeah. All right, cool. Yeah, so how long are you going to hang it like a year or longer? I'm thinking like a year. Yeah, I'll probably dig into, you know, I might try it in December, maybe maybe January. I actually did a, did another one before the, just like a month before this one that, uh, was skin off and, uh, you know, more like a £12
+
+[26:38] like, bone or, uh, I don't know, femur and ham, you know, that I got from a guy. So that one's gonna cure more like 6 or 8 months, I think. I larded over that one too, because it was basically, you know, no skin on it. It's some fat spill, but I put a nice coating of lard over that one. So that one I'll probably break into in the next month or so, but this one I'm going to wait till at least 2012. Right, yeah. And you know the ice pick trick, right? Shove an ice pick into it to smell it, see how you're doing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, cured aroma, that's kind of, you know, obviously it takes practice,
+
+[27:08] but I'm just looking for a cured hammy aroma, right? Yeah, and you can search also to make sure that you don't have like a taint along the bone line or anything like that. By the way, I've had many hams that have like a taint, like a little bit of like an uncured part
+
+[27:21] that along the bone, and it doesn't affect the rest of your ham. I'm sure you already know this if you've already, if you already done this. By the way, a good place to look, for a country ham curing, there's a guy named Norman Marriott, who's a, who's ex, he's emeritus at, I think, Virginia Tech, and he has a good online PDF on ham curing, in a ba-, in case you want to try, like, total American
+
+[27:44] style at some point, bag curing, which is actually kind of kind of interesting, maybe doing American stuff for your next one.
+
+[27:49] How much did this guy, how much did this guy weigh before you cured him, the big one? It was right about £25, I believe, yeah. Nice. Nice. It was a good one. It was a good butcher from Central Illinois. He supplies a lot of the local Chicago restaurants. And the other one is, the other one I got was from this great Amish farmer in central Indiana where I spent a lot of time, uh, real, you know, purely pastured, uh, real, real natural pork. So I'm excited for both of them. They should be pretty tasty. Nice. Sounds like it's going to be delicious. I certainly hope so I'm waiting for ready for it, man. I want it to be 2012 right now. Yeah, waiting's the hard part. That's why you got to keep making them so you never have to wait to have your next one. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to wait, you know, next December, once the temperatures drop a little bit. I'm definitely getting on another one, so. Beautiful. All right. thanks for coming. quick question. What's your, you have like a favorite country, you know, maker who you buy from regularly or who would you recommend if I were to get
+
+[28:45] one, if I were to buy an American country, Ham? What do you think would be a good place to start? All right. there's a couple of really good ones. The problem is you got to make sure you get the good ones from them, which means you can't, you have to call, physically call and ask, like, how the particular ham is so
+
+[28:57] that the, like, my go-to hams are, I like S. Wallace Edwards, right? He has he has one that's now called a Suriano, which I don't enjoy the name because I hate like pretending that it's like some sort of Spanish thing, but
+
+[29:09] he is currently making those things with Patrick here from Heritage Food, his heritage pork.
+
+[29:13] They're unbelievably marbled and they're very well made. I really like those. They're kind of smoked in a Virginia tidewater style. And I think he puts pepper on. I think they smoke even the Seriano ones, but they're delicious. He might make an unsmoked one. I really like Nancy Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's over in Kentucky. You know, their recipe goes back a long way. I've heard that she's now experimenting with some heritage pork. In fact, I tasted some. It's delicious. Her ham is hung in an area that has kind of like a lot of
+
+[29:41] like funky molds. It's kind of like she's near a swamp and her hams have a very faint wisp of kind of like a blue cheese note that I
+
+[29:50] really, really enjoy. But you have to call her. She only cures once a year in the, in the, in the wintertime and uh, she sells this stuff out. So you got to make sure sometimes she has some older ones that are held over from last year. You can call her and she will hold them for you. She's great. I like Alan Benton makes some good hams. I haven't had his in a while, Benton's country ham. closer to you. Burgers, smokehouse makes like of some commodity hams, right? But they also make a, like, kind of their heritage ham, which is 12 months old. I believe it's called like attic age, but you have to call because they make some hams for Walmart. You know what I mean? And then they make, and then they make some that are, you know, that are, they're old. Yeah, real. So it's all about kind of, it's all about with, with these, with these companies like calling them up and and just talking with them on the phone and making sure that you're
+
+[30:41] getting, because they think that you don't want it. You know what I mean? Like they think that you want a 4 month old commodity ham. And because that's what people have been asking for because people have been searching for based on
+
+[30:50] price and they've been, they wanted kind of a less salty taste and you're like, listen, I want, you know, I want... Yeah. So burgers one's not super funky and it's not smoked. Their attic one. It's a milder kind of a ham. I think the S Wallace Edwards depends on which kind of aging room he's in, but this new marble stuff is great. Nancy Mahaffy stuff, really good. Alan Benton stuff. I don't know if Alan Benton is currently doing anything with like the heritage breeds. The interesting, the problem with American country hams isn't that we don't have the technical expertise to make the stuff because we do. It's that it's that our pork quality had been lacking for many years in terms of marbling and also the older
+
+[31:30] you the older an animal is when it's slaughtered and the higher the slaughter weight of the animal, depending on the genetics, obviously, but for
+
+[31:36] a given animal, the enzyme characteristics of the meat change as the animal
+
+[31:40] ages, and they change more favorably towards making country ham. So the older the meat is that slaughtered, not only the more flavorful will it be, but the better it will age.
+
+[31:49] So, you know, these older, bigger hams not only age better because they're physically larger, and they tend to physically have more fat, which protects them so they can age more, but also their enzyme
+
+[32:01] makeup and their initial flavor profile is better. And so as we start realizing this, and as like some of the
+
+[32:08] top notch American country and producers start buying better pork, I think you're going to see us competing with some of the top European
+
+[32:17] people kind of more head-to-head. I mean, I like it anyway. I prefer American country hams taste profile because it's aged at a higher tent. But, you know, like, that's kind of the last step we need to get to is, oh, also Finchville Farm. another really good one. They're in Kentucky. So they're really good Finchville Farms. Yeah. And Finchville Farms is interesting. They also, uh, you know, basically, I think they cure, like, 11 or 2 times, they do a natural kind of cure. They're also nitrate free, as is Newsoms, right? So you should taste those 2 side by side because one smoked and one's not, and they're both Kentucky, but they're aged in very different environments in Kentucky. They make they make a really good, they make a really good product as well. Cool, I'm excited, man. Yeah, I think I'm going to buy one of those. I want to, you know, Yeah, thanks for the info, Dave. No problem. Remember though, to call those guys before you buy it. So you know you're getting the right one. All right, cool. All right, thanks a lot. So let's go to our 1st commercial break, calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 4 718-49728. When I look out into your face, you know what I see? I see a little bit of Elvis and each and every one of you out there. Let me tell you, when...
+
+[33:28] Yeah, everybody. Hell, this is still the genie. Man, old man, what I want
+
+[33:37] to say, is that the baby, you hear me? Elvis is everywhere, man. He's in everything. He's in everybody. Elvis is in your jeans. He's in your cheeseburgers. Elvis is in nutty buddies. Elvis is in your mom. He's in everybody. He's in the gum, the old, the bat, the skinny. The white, the black, and the brown, and the blue, people got Elvis in number two. Elvis isn't everybody out there. The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Greenhorn Radio, hosted by Severn von Sharner Fleming every Thursday at 2 PM. Greenhorn Radio is radio 4 Young Farmers by Young Farmers, helmed by acclaimed activist, farmer, and documentarian
+
+[34:32] Severan Fleming, Greenhorn Radio is a weekly phone interview session, surveying America's cutting edge under 40
+
+[34:38] farmers. Again, that's every Thursday at 2 PM on the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome back to cooking issues. Call all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. So how cool is now? We got a call in that let us pump not only heritage meets, but also one of our sponsors.
+
+[35:01] Wilds Edwards. That's great Yeah, nice. Advertising. Yeah, and I also happen to believe in those products. Thank God. So, you know, it's a problem. Remember the time we had a sponsorship? sponsorships? Yeah, the reason, like other shows, like people will read sponsorship, uh, the sponsorships, you know, they, but Jack, our intrepid engineer, has to record ours ahead of time because no one ever knows what the hell I'm going to say about a particular
+
+[35:29] sponsor, because if I think that the thing is crap or if I don't understand why what it's, you know, selling proposition is, I find it difficult to kind of sell it,
+
+[35:38] right? You're not the only one I do it across the board now. Oh, really? Because there was a bunch of us like that? Yeah, you know. Yeah, but S. Walsh Edwards and, you know, our parent
+
+[35:48] Heritage Foods USA are 2 things I can kind of stand behind without qualification. Anyway, um, so, uh, we were talking about before. We're talking about Ikajime? All right. What was I saying? Do you remember? I don't. You were explaining the entire process. And then you were talking about the Chang thing. Yeah. So, 0 my god. So I don't know how much I'm allowed to say. You know, Chang has this new TV show. but it's not a TV show. It's an iPad application, and you get to watch a little bit of it for free, and then you have to buy the rest of it, and it's being done by Anthony Bourdain's production company,
+
+[36:23] which, you know, anyway. So, uh, he had me in to do uh, this segment. I don't know how much I'm allowed to say about it because, you know, you're going to have to see the iPad and stuff, but I'll say this. Before this week, I had never had real, like, line, line caught right on the boat, striped bass that had been done, Ikigime with the spike through the head and with the, with the needle through the spine.
+
+[36:45] And we did them this time, they were huge. They were like, you know, 40 inches, um, and they were caught right off, right off Montauk, right on a boat. Ikeji made right on the boat. We had Western style, which means Montauk style. So Montauk style is, is you'll you'll cut the gills, so it bleeds to death, and then throw it directly onto ice and let it bleed out, right? So that's one step above just taking the fish and throwing it into your ice well and letting it die by asphyxiation, which is how a lot of people do it. Because a lot of people, they think that it's kind of barbaric to do all these things to the fish when you get them out, like cut their gills and stuff. But what it really is, is they just don't have the cojones to dispatch the fish when it
+
+[37:26] comes, when they take it out of the water, and they'd rather have the thing suffocate to death in, you know, in a box where they can't see it.
+
+[37:33] You know what I mean? Which to me. So in other words, like all of these things where, you know, people say you're doing something kind of inhumane by, you know, sticking a knife in its head and then cutting the spine at the gills and cutting the spine at the
+
+[37:45] tail. First of all, like, these things are done to kill the fish as quickly as possible, right? Which is the most humane thing to do instead of letting it suffocate, right? Secondly, if you were going to kill, and this is, you know, something I, you know, I said when we were shooting, I believe
+
+[38:00] is if you were going to kill an animal to eat it, right, you are obligated to, one, try to reduce its suffering as much as possible while you're, while you're killing it, which has the added benefit that it makes it taste better, 90, every, every example that I've ever heard of or seen, that killing an animal in a way that is the least trauma to the animal makes the best tasting animal.
+
+[38:25] So you're obligated to be as humane as possible and you're also obligated to make the animal taste as good as you possibly can, right? I mean, don't you think if you're going to kill something, you should at least taste it. That's why, like, I tell my kids, you know, don't waste meat. My kids are like, uh, daddy, I have to eat this meat. And I'm like, yes, because a cow died for it. I'm like, yes. You know what I mean? It's like, you shouldn't really waste the stuff and you shouldn't really, you should treat it well. You shouldn't overcook it. You know, you're obligated not to overcook it. You're obligated not to mess it up. You're obligated not to, you know, I think, waste a lot when you, when you, when you eat this. So anyway. So these techniques, which some people find kind of barbaric, in fact, my stepfather, who's a surf caster, he's in
+
+[39:08] Cape right now, he caught the biggest monster fish I've ever seen someone catch surf casting for stripers in the Cape. The thing was, I don't know how the hell long it was. It was like 46, 48 inches is crazy. It was over 4 feet long, I think. It was huge. Anyways, so he didn't, he didn't, uh, Ikejime, it won because I haven't shown him how, but he's like, my fish don't like things, shoved up their butts. I'm like, listen, you know, you're killing it anyway, you might as well have it be perfect by shoving. it's not up it's not the butt anyway. Anyway, you know. So even though it looks weird, he's afraid to do it because he thinks the other surfcasters are going to think that he's a lunatic and going to try and
+
+[39:45] come over and like, you know, get mad at him for torturing the fish, but in fact, you're doing the fish a favor by killing it
+
+[39:51] quickly, and then you're doing yourself a favor and honoring the fish by having the flesh be as perfect as it can be.
+
+[39:57] So we tasted these different ones. And the Western style fish was definitely not as good as, you know, the Montauk style, all props in Montauk, but Montauk's in Long Island for anyone listening who doesn't know the kind of this coast. Um, and it's the tip. It's where Jaws was, you know, supposedly from. They have lots of fishing boats off Montauk is beautiful. anyway. So you're doing good honor to the fish by doing it that way. Um, the one, oh, I know what I was talking about also. Western chefs need to kind of get there, wrap their heads around the fact that the freshest fish isn't necessarily the best fish.
+
+[40:30] So there's a Chinese technique where they prize freshness above all
+
+[40:33] else. And Nastasia and I saw a demonstration of this once, where you literally wrap the live fish's head in towels and then cut the muscles of the
+
+[40:43] fish, so it can't move anymore, and then deep fry the body while the head's still alive. Now, I don't practice this. So to please don't write in or call in because remember that demo we saw? Yeah. The guy was on the phone the whole time, like planning a party in Chinese. Remember? I don't remember that aspect of it. But I do remember the demonstration. I did taste it. I don't think that, I don't think it really, like, the idea is that it's supposed to be the life of the fish is still there, and so you're supposed to, like, that's promote freshness or whatever. I don't think that it benefits the fish really from a taste standpoint. So now, like a huge chunk of like, uh, you know, Chinese, you know, culturally Chinese people are going to get mad at me for this, but I don't think it's, and it's kind of like, it's kind of, it's kind of
+
+[41:29] horrible. Well, you know, it's virtuoso technique, you know, but I think it's kind of horrible thing to do. I wouldn't advocate doing it. What about you? You felt bad. You didn't want to... I don't think I ate it. You didn't need it? don't think so. I ate it. But, you know, it's like, that's a bizarre technique. So anyway, so like there's, there's a, the whole section of people, uh, you know, uh, around the world who believe that the freshest fish is the best
+
+[41:49] fish and so preferably the head's still alive while you're eating the body, which that's just perverse, right? Like, if it tasted really great, I would say, well, I don't know, maybe, but I don't really think it tastes
+
+[42:00] that, I don't think it was that good either. But anyway, um, But the fact of the matter is that you really most of the time want to wait for the fish to go through rigor mortis before you eat it. So the freshest fish isn't necessarily the best fish. It's the fish that is at the right time. Now, it is true that once fish reaches its peak, it doesn't stay in peak condition very long. So once it reaches its peak, you want to eat it very quickly, but it's like, the fact of the matter is, is that peak isn't the moment it's killed. You know, tuna, it takes days for it to really come out of rigor and have it
+
+[42:33] be have it be perfect again. And so, you know, you want to really, um, it's not every fish the moment it's caught. It's every fish at its proper time. One thing that they we're looking for bluefish. you eat bluefish, nastasia? I love bluefish, bluefish. I've loved it for a long time. starting to get popular. A lot of people don't like it because it's an oily fish. They're real strong swimmers, real mean suckers. and they form huge schools and they go up a lot of times close to the beach and like my stepfather's seen it where people have been in the water and like a school of blues will come through and they'll just take a bite right out of like a swimmer's leg because they're vicious suckers and they got like
+
+[43:09] sharp, sharp teeth. In fact, if you're fishing for blues, they use a lot of times metal liters on them because they'll cut through, their teeth will cut through other stuff and
+
+[43:17] blues, their monsters will eat anything. But delicious. I want to try Ikigime on a bluefish because they're strong, right? So I think that they would really benefit from it. And they're one of those fish that you need to eat relatively quickly. People really say you need to eat it quickly because the flesh deteriorates. So I'm wondering whether we can improve the quality of it by doing Ikigime on a bluefish. And I'm especially interested because that is a fish that the Japanese guys don't
+
+[43:41] eat, right? So they don't really understand the bluefish. It's not something that they eat, as far as I know. So my goal for the summer. And if anyone's, you know, hearing this, buy Dave Chang's iPad
+
+[43:52] app when it comes out, see the Ikejime section on it because there's enough footage in that thing for you to learn how to do it from watching
+
+[43:59] it. And so you can learn Ikigime from that and then go Ikigime some bluefish and tell me how it, tell me how it turns out. So, uh, I maybe in Los Angeles next week. I may not, because even though it's next week and we're shooting this pilot for, am I allowed to say
+
+[44:17] any of this? don't think so. I don't think you No? It's about history and cooking. Uh, and I am going to, like, if it all works out because even though it's only a week away, for some reason, because it's me and I'm completely disorganized, we don't have the negotiations done yet, so I have no idea what's going
+
+[44:34] on. But if I do it, I'm going to be a judge. Can you believe that, me as a judge, how do you think that's going to work out, Nastasia? You're too nice. Yeah, I mean, they should get, they should get you to be
+
+[44:46] it, because you'd sit there and just give them the death stare the whole time, and then just shake your head. You're honest? That's what that is? Honesty? anyway. So hopefully I will be here. If not, I'll be coming to you from Los Angeles. This has been cooking issues. Have a good week.
+
+[45:08] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[45:24] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. The USDA has introduced the My Plate icon. I'm sure you've all seen that in the news replacing the food pyramid that was in use for 19 years. This colorful icon contains portions of fruits, vegetables, grains, protein, and a little side dish of dairy. It can be viewed at www.choosemyplate.gov. It does look like a plate. It's divided into 4 quadrants. They are surprisingly similarly sized. Vegetables, fruits, proteins, grains. The veg are definitely a little bit larger than the other groups, but protein was really big.
+
+[46:26] I was surprised. I thought we were supposed to eat less meat. Each component of the plate can be clicked on for a drop down menu that explains portion size, healthy choices, nutritional information,
+
+[46:37] et cetera. It offers significantly more information to consumers, but it is a little bit more complicated to use. We see if people actually look at it. This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Did you know we have a show entirely about cheese? Take a listen. Well, I know this is it's horrible to do visual things on the radio, but if you were all sitting in the studio, you would see this wheel from
+
+[47:03] late May is quite pale in color. It's a little bit, yeah, like a milkier, sort of a very soft yellow. And then the wheel from late June is quite golden and intense
+
+[47:16] looking. It's a really deep, deep yellow. Um, what causes that, that difference? Well, I'm quite sure it's the grass. That's the keratin in the grass. And, um, that's giving it that yellow color, not fat, um, but definitely coming from, from the pasture. Our animals are fed. Hey, through the winter now. We don't use fermented feed because that won't work with our cheese, but so they're essentially grass-fred
+
+[47:46] year round with grain cell. If you like what you hear, cutting the curd airs every Monday at 4.30
+
+[47:51] p.m. on heritage radio network, make sure to subscribe to the podcast or check it out in our archives.
+
+[47:56] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's in their
+
+[48:16] studio because they talk to people who are serious about food, and that's what we are at Fairways. We serious about food. We just care very deeply about, about you as a, as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support heritage radio because it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's, that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're going to find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on
+
+[48:59] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark.
+
+[49:07] Barbecue, beef. Barbecue. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA.com. The difference between wild Alaskan salmon and farmed Atlantic salmon is just as great as the differences between commodity pork and heritage breed pork.
+
+[49:30] Huge heritage foodsusa.com is lining up a major social
+
+[49:33] pie of sustainably harvested salmon in July and offering it at a phenomenal price to consumers. Check out heritagefoodsusa.com for more details on how to get in on this opportunity. Experience salmon the way it should be.
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+[0:00] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area, and we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's
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+[0:16] and their studio, because they talk to people who are serious about food, and that's what we are at
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+[0:22] Fairways. We're serious about food. We just care very deeply about, about you as a customer and how you cook, and what you cook with and how you entertain. And that's why we love to support heritage
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+[0:35] radio, because it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and
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+[0:44] care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's, that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're going to find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on
+
+[0:59] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins, Fairway Mark.
+
+[1:19] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, you're hosting cooking, and she's coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245. Call in all of your questions, cooking, or non-cooking or technical related to 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:40] That's 718-497-2128. Sadly, I am not joined in the studio today by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because she is on vacation in Rhode
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+[1:49] Island up at Watch Hillness, but she is calling in, so I think we have her Nastasia there. Yeah, hi. Can you say sadly? Did you say sadly, are not in there? in the studio? Yeah, sadly. Is that bad? Oh, thank you. So uh, how's uh, how's Rhode Island up there? Um, the beach is beautiful. Very gorgeous. I know you've seen I know you've seen every beach. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I've seen and try to avoid most beaches. My, you know, my wife likes me to go to beaches all the time, but I'm, 1st of all, so white that everyone thinks there's a 2nd son on the beach, even though I'm completely clothed head to
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+[2:27] toe, whenever I go to one, I also detest sand, although I do like foraging for things on the beach.
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+[2:32] In fact, that's one of my favorite things to do. So that's basically the only way you can get me to do anything is if I'm going to forage for food. I remember when I was a kid, I used to, we used to go to the Cape all the time, and I used to, basically all I would do is go around looking for cohogs
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+[2:46] and uh, clams and mussels, depending on on where I was, because uh, that's basically all I like about being outside is finding food. What about you? There's a foraging session at 4 o'clock. So I'm gonna do that. You gonna do it? What are you going to forge for for plants? have no idea. I have no idea what they're going to do. It's a surprise. A lot of good foraging to be done on the shores as well as in the
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+[3:11] water close to the beach. I've never done it in Rhode Island, though. I mean, I've done a lot in Maine. They, the famous, uh, you know, dead for a long time, but famous wild food writer, maybe the 1st big, famous one here in, in the, uh, US, Yule Gibbons, wrote a specifically small manual for New England seacoast foraging, but it's more for Maine, but there's just a wealth of things you can eat on the, on the beach from, uh, like Oric, which is like Lamb's quarters, which is great for a salad or a version of sea beans or like wild sea rocket, which is like a, like wild rocket, like
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+[3:46] arug but more succulent and like crunchy, and also a little more bitter, like mustardy green, but the stuff just grows wild along the beach. You know, it's crazy. And depending on, I think it's a little early, but like beach plums, you know, I mean, there's just fantastic amounts of things you can forage along the
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+[4:04] beach. And I think one of the reasons is because a lot of it, you're not allowed to kind of mess with anymore from, you know, from a development standpoint. So if you're in a place that's not built up. probably got a lot of that good stuff just lying around, right? Oh, I forgot to give you your service berries yesterday. Oh, I know. Nastasia's buddies went and foraged in Brooklyn, apparently, said for service berries, a.k.a.
+
+[4:29] there's a 1000000 different names from Shadbury's and whatnot. I've never actually had them. Were they good? Uh, they were okay. I mean, it's exactly what they said. It was like blueberry texture with a raspberry taste. We made a pie and it was disgusting. Why was the pie? Why was the pie disgusting? I messed up the crust and then the crust infiltrated the berry filling and it was
+
+[4:51] just, what? What did you, what did you do for the crust? What did you, let's analyze this. This will be our 1st problem on cooking issues. What did you do for the crust? I used Crisco? What? Well, it was Pat's mom's recipe. And he was like, mom makes this. You need to make it like this. And I was like, all right. So it was 2 cups of flour, 3 quarter cup of Crisco, and cold water, and salt, and that was
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+[5:17] it. Right. What happened? It, it wouldn't roll, and when I picked it up, it would crumble apart, so I made a 2nd one, and then that one wouldn't roll. So then instead I took the ball and I put the ball in the center of the pie, uh, pie tin, and then I spread the ball out with my
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+[5:35] finger so that it made a sort of crust around it, and then he insisted that there'd be a pop crust, and so I rolled out a pop crust and then carefully placed it on top, but it was all crumbly and
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+[5:45] gross, and then, yeah, and then that crust broke into the filling, and as it was cooking, that. Yeah, you
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+[5:53] didn't use enough water. Everyone's petrified about using uh, the too much water and so they make a, they make a one that's not bound. If you use, I can't really in my head calculate, you know, cut measures of flour to Crisco. Um, but the, uh, you know, if you use enough of fat, right? And you incorporate it correctly into the flour base. I usually add a little sugar because it colors it up really nicely and salt. Then, uh, you know, you you put the ice water in and you don't really have to worry about it getting to, uh, the gluten developing too much and getting tough as long as you are pretty quick about it. I tend to never use Crisco. Um, you know, I don't stock it. I think, you know, lard is freaking delicious. Lard Lard's amazing. The problem with lard is that if you, you know, the hydrogenated lard is not so good, but the hydrogenated lard is good from a texture standpoint, even though it's extremely soft,
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+[6:57] whereas home rendered lard tends to have a solid fraction and a liquid fraction, the liquid fraction is just too liquid to really do it
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+[7:04] properly, so you want to take the more solid fraction. And if you use lard, you want it to be really, really, really chilled, really chilled. But that gives kind of like a little like savory note to pastries that I think is really lacking in most modern pies that don't use lard.
+
+[7:20] But even, and then, you know, barring that, even though the texture, theoretically, isn't quite as
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+[7:24] good using butter as using Crisco, butter pie crust are freaking delicious. I mean they're... Yeah, I wanted to use butter and Pat was insistent that I use Crisco. And I didn't even have Crisco in the house, so he had to go buy it, but I had butter, you
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+[7:38] know? I mean, the way Crisco, you know, the particular fat melting characteristics of Crisco, plus the fact that it doesn't have any, you know, it doesn't have water in
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+[7:48] it, the way that butter does kind of make it have that kind of unique Crisco texture that some people really, really
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+[7:55] like. I don't think it's necessarily worth it. I've never been a big fan. I mean, even prior to trans fat days. I mean, Crisco, I thought was good for certain applications, like certain frying applications,
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+[8:09] donuts, you want to hydrogenated fat because once they cool down, a donut fried in regular oil is going to taste in
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+[8:17] liquid, fat, liquid oil is going to taste really greasy, whereas something fried in
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+[8:22] a hydrogenated fat is going to taste more like a donut, right?
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+[8:27] I mean, the flip side of that's also true. So for instance, you want to fry, fry potato chips in, uh, in liquid oil, if you fry potato chips in a solid fat, they taste not oily, greasy, and they leave like
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+[8:40] this, like, grease coating on your tongue when you eat them, similar to what a donut might do, but in a potato
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+[8:44] chip that's considered extremely bad. In fact, um, that is the story behind the whole kind of uh, oh, remember
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+[8:52] Olesco? Wow. Remember that? Yeah. So for those of you that don't remember, Olestra, basically there's a technique that they applied, they can apply it to any fat. And it makes it says that you can no longer digest the fat, right? And so this was, you know, heralded years ago as like, this is
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+[9:09] going to make it so that you can eat unlimited quantities of fried
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+[9:13] foods and it's going to have the same effect on your waistline as if you ate everything steamed.
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+[9:17] Basically. That was the that was the deal. A couple of problems with it were, one, when you do this procedure, you're no longer absorbing the fat, but
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+[9:27] that those fats still tend to, the fat soluble vitamins also then tend not to be absorbed. So you're lacking in fat soluble vitamins. That's the one problem. And two, if it's a liquid fat, right? Like if you were to do it to make Alestra olive oil, let's say, I don't know how I'm going to put this in a way that's not gross, but it basically runs through your system and
+
+[9:47] not your butt, right? And so that was what led to the phenomenon, and there is no
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+[9:53] polite, it's a technical term known as, um, uh, anal leakage, right? was what they called it, right? Now, similar phenomenon, by the way, with this new, uh, new, like 3 years
+
+[10:05] ago product called LI. Remember, you know, you've heard of a lie. It's spelled kind of weird, but that's the diet pill that came out. Yeah, it's a diet pill, that basically you can eat, and it stops you from absorbing fat. And I tested
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+[10:18] it, and the same kind of a thing happens. You don't want to consume a lot of liquid fats when you're on a lot. I don't even know if they sell it anymore, that stuff a lot. anyway. So back to where we're going. So what happened was, is they were frying potato chips in, uh, in liquid, um, in an oil, liquid
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+[10:36] oil-based uh, elestra product, and basically, it just ran straight through the test subjects, right? And that's where it picked up the really bad, bad, bad press that if you ate this, you were going to have all kinds of, you know, gastrointestinal problems and
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+[10:52] it was going to, you know, you're going to set yourself on spray and whatnot. So, but the manufacturer, I forget who it was who did it with
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+[11:00] Proctor and Gamble, whoever, that they basically were like, okay, no,
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+[11:04] it was free delay, actually. It was free delay. Uh, they uh, they're like, okay, look, here's what we have to do. We have to use a hydrogenated fat. So that it's going to be a solid in your body and it's not just going to dribble through you like your one long pipe. Do you know what I'm saying? So then they started frying potato chips in solid Olestra, and they no longer had the underwear problem, but no one liked the taste of the potato chips,
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+[11:29] right? Because you don't want solid fat. You don't want your potato chips fried in solid fat. Okay, so what did they do? They invented this new system, this air curtain, this hot air curtain where they would fry the potato chips into solid Olestra, and then they would put it on a conveyor and blast it with hot air. And the hot air
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+[11:49] would, you know, nuke the surface coating of the, uh, of fat right off the top of the chip. So that when you ate it, you wouldn't perceive as much the fact that it had been fried with a solid
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+[11:59] fat. All right? Um, and it wouldn't leak anymore, right? But the problem was, is that you could always kind of tell the thing had been fried in a solid fat. And most people then assume that they could. I could taste the orestro, you know, it doesn't taste good. I could taste. No, you can't. It's like the fact that they fried it in a solid fat is the problem. If they had fried it in, um, you know, in a liquid, alaska. You would never have been able to taste a difference except for, you know, you'd have to change your clothes a bunch. I mean, at one time, I thought that I thought that Alestro was going to be the wave of the future and that there would be, you know,
+
+[12:35] you know, in the in the in the dining room of the future, every chair would be its own chamber pot, but that has not come to pass.
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+[12:41] Instead, we have we have shied away from that, even as a, you know, I assume that culturally we would embrace anything that allowed us to, you know, eat one thing constantly without it having an effect on our system, but for some reason, the bad press surrounding it still prevented us from embracing it
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+[13:00] wholeheartedly. Anyways, Olestra. Back to, and by the way, for a very good account of Olestra, you should read Jeffrey Steingarten's 1st book, the man... I always get it wrong. I always confuse it. I think I said this on the air before. Jeffrey Steingarten, our good friend, vogue food writer, you know, renowned author, television personality, lunatic.
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+[13:19] Um, he, uh, you know, he wrote a book called uh, The Man Who Ate Everything, and I always confuse it with the Oliver Sachs book,
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+[13:28] the man who mistook his wife for a hat. And so I always like, I'm like the man who mistook his wife for someone who ate everything. I always for some reason, I don't know why I confuse these 2 books together, but I always do. Anyway, he has an extremely interesting article in that about, and early, by the way, article on
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+[13:41] Olestra, which I recommend that you go read, but the other, well, one of the other must read
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+[13:48] articles if there, if there was such a thing in that book as a non-must read article. I don't know, but one of the must read articles in that book is on making pie crusts. And he basically goes through a 1000000 different pie
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+[14:03] crust, and then ends up hanging out with Marion Cunningham, who was the, you know,
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+[14:09] famous famous cookbook author and editor of, I believe, of the more recent
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+[14:14] Fanny Farmer. So it's been a long time since I looked it up. And basically, learns how to make pie crust from her, and it's extremely simple, and I use their recipe now whenever I can, which is you put an absurd amount of butter, cut it up, make sure the
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+[14:27] butter is pretty cold, put it in the flour, add to salt or whatever sugar you
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+[14:31] want. knead it in with your fingers until it resembles, like coarse, crumbly crap, like some things as big as peas and other things smaller, stir in
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+[14:39] water. It doesn't have to be crazy ice water. Make sure you have enough for it to bind together quickly, form it into a dough, roll it out without much ado, try not to
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+[14:48] re-roll it, and go. And that's like, you know, that's it. You know what I mean? Makes great, makes a great crust. You do it in the KitchenAid when you do it? Oh hell no. I use my hands in a fork. It's so simple. That's the thing. like everyone like, you know, they have these recipes. Like when you're making puff pastry, people use, for instance, the, uh, um, food processor to cut the, cut the butter in to get flakiness instead of having to
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+[15:12] make like, you know, the, the, the, the butter mixture, folding it over and rolling it a bunch of times with pie crust, there is never a reason to use any piece of mechanical equipment whatsoever.
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+[15:21] Like, you know, you just get a bowl and uh, put in the flour, put in the, I would say, butter, but, or I would say lard, and then barring lard, a mixture of lard and butter, barring a mixture of lard and butter, butter,
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+[15:34] barring that. I don't know, whatever in the hell you have lying around your house. But, yeah, Crisco, whatever. Um, but, you know, no offense to the Crisco people, except for the fact that it's because of Crisco and things like it that we no longer use
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+[15:47] lard, because there was a big switch away, but that's a whole separate story. We'll get into that maybe later. Anyway. So, uh, just put the, the, the flower stuff in and quickly with your fingers, like rub it. And Steingarten has a great description of it because if there's anything Steingarten
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+[16:03] is, is extremely anal about not just recording what you say, but what you do, that's why he likes to go into the
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+[16:10] kitchen and watch people cook. And so if you've ever cooked with him, he'll get something over the, over the phone or whatnot. He wants to show up and examine everything you're doing and he'll ask you constantly why you're doing X, why you're doing Y and doing readings. And it's because he knows that, um, regardless of what you say, right, you almost always do something
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+[16:32] else or you really don't understand why you're doing what you're doing anyway. And so he needs to basically decode it. And that's one of the reasons why he's been, uh, why he's so interesting and why he's been um, so successful. So he has a very good description of how to do it, but you basically just stick your hands in and you rub your thumb over your fingers
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+[16:50] like, like almost like you were snapping, but across all your fingers, but or like you were rubbing, or like you were rubbing through your fingers like your fingers were the tines of a comb or a fork and you're rubbing it through. So you just rub it in and then just stir in the water with a fork, gather it into a bowl with your hand and you're good to go. I mean, really, it's that freaking simple. There's nothing simpler than making a good pie crust, and yet there's nothing, there's few things that cause as much anxiety among people. Secondly, uh, you know, you know, no offense to uh, Nastasia's friend Pat here, but is he a, is he a known, good cook? Is he what? No one could be a cook? Yeah, is he a good cook? Then you should never listen to him about anything. his mom, his mom. Was his mom there? Then you should not listen to him. It's like saying, you know what? My mom, she's a really good doctor. My mom knows how to cure, you know, X, Y, and Z, or my mom's a good surgeon, so I'm going to listen to listen to me about how to chop someone's heart out. Really? No, you know what I mean? It's like, if the expert's in the room with you, then, you know, then follow the advice. But if, if, you know, if it's just some, you know, if it's like, you know, my mom's a good cook, well, you
+
+[18:03] know. So what? You know, especially considering that there are 8000000 ways to do anything. And so, uh, and even perfectly. And that's my, that's always been my issue with, you know, magazines like the Cooks Illustrated, or even sometimes when, you know, when we, you know, when we write or when I write, you know, your urge is to say, this is the ultimate X.
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+[18:21] This is the ultimate why or the best, blah, blah, blah. In reality, there are a lot, there are a lot of things that are good done a bunch of different ways. And the idea isn't to find the one best way, but to have your way be coherent from beginning to end and to produce a delicious product. There are many paths. There are many ways. But anyway, so I've been blabbering on about the pie crust. don't we go to our 1st commercial break? Call in your question. It says 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[18:59] When the Black Friday comes. I stand down by the door. To catch the play,
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+[19:13] and when to die from the war, be it long. When black body comes I collect everything I
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+[19:25] know. And before my friends find out, I'll be on the door. When back it fall you know it got to be You'll make it go on me.
+
+[19:48] Welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling all of your questions too. 718-4972128. 718-497-2128. Jack choosing the music today. Jack, what is that? I like that. Steely Dan. Steely Dan. Steely Dan taking their name, I believe, from a William Burroughs quote, right? It's, I believe, I, there's so many like un family-friendly things, but I believe Steely Dan is from a William, uh, William Burroughs book, and it refers
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+[20:20] to uh, a toy used uh, in private by women, a specific brand of them or men, I guess. I don't know. Is that is that true, Jack? That's true. Yeah. Interesting. Nastasia, you still with us? I'm having a frozen virgin lemonade. Well, what? Wait, are you having Adele's lemonade? I don't know. Some guy just handed it. Oh, Jesus, is it Dell's? Turn to the guy and say, is this a Dell's lemonade? No, he walked away. It just has lots of pieces of lemon rind. That's Dell's. That's dove. Really good. That's hilary. That is, you have Rhode Island in a cup. All right? So, like, that's one of like, here's the thing, right? Everyone says there's no such thing as regional, American, X, Y, or Z, and they're full of horse manure. Like, yeah, Rhode Island's got a couple of classic things. Anyone that's, I didn't grow up and around, but anyone that's grown up in Rhode Island knows Dell's lemonade and Dell's lemonade is famous for, um, you got
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+[21:19] the, it's like slushy one, right? And it's got little pieces of the lemon in it and it's classic, but they sell a package Dells that I've had that's okay, but it's
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+[21:30] not. I don't think it's the same thing that they use if you get it from the real Dell stand in Rhode Island, but I can't be sure. Any Rhode Island fans should call in and, you know, and there's, by the way, there's like a Rhode Island kind of a New York Rhode Island culinary mafia. Uh, you know, hello? Yeah, someone's putting together a table, of course, behind me because it can't be the show without construction going on. Sounds like a pig is running around behind you. It's snoring. Right? Yeah. So yeah, so like Wiley Dufre, my brother-in-law is Rhode Island. There's a gazillion New York chefs that are Rhode Island. Isn't uh, isn't uh, Kevin also from Rhode Island? Yeah. Yeah. Who else? Who else do we know from right now? Small state, a lot of chefs, right? Yeah, strange. Okay. Let me see. Oh, by the way, did I already say this? Call on your questions too. 718-4972128. That is 718-497-2128 Nastasia. You'll be glad to know that I in fact still have not memorized it, and Jack had to give me a card with
+
+[22:36] the with the number. fact, I think you just play with me. No, I really have not memorized it. It's one of those things like, don't you have anything that you just have a mental block on that you can't that you can't memorize? Yeah, yeah. Okay. You know, I can memorize many things. The number of, uh, to call into the show is not not one of those things. But you say it was such a flow that you think that you'd memorize it, you know? You stay the same way every time. Right. Well, you know what? It's funny. It's like, uh, when you're reading something and maybe this is part of the reason when you're reading something, it literally just goes, uh, you know, from your eyes, out your
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+[23:11] mouth, and it's just, that's it. It's gone. And I had this happen when I was doing the IACP, the International Association culinary professionals with Chris Young, is the 1st time in my life. We were doing a presentation for the awards for the cookbook awards. And it was the 1st time in my life I've ever used a teleprompter. And I have no idea what I said. You know what I mean? It was like, you know, it's like, that's why, you know, you ever see those things where like the newscasters are sitting there and they'll,
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+[23:37] like someone will put something crazy in the teleprompter and they'll just start reading it with the same kind of
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+[23:40] emotion. You know, I always thought they were dumb, but now I really understand it. It's that you, you know, all you're concentrating on is delivering the text that's on the
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+[23:49] screen. And the mental activity it would take to process it at the same time is just, you know, too much.
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+[23:56] anyway. So maybe that's why. Maybe if I actually sat there, I could memorize it, but because I've never done it and I've just read it off the piece of paper, I'll never memorize it. do you think? Yeah. Oh, I was going to tell you, LA keeps asking about special treats that you like, so I've been sending them information on special things. Oh, Jesus, really? Honestly? Okay, so what Nastasia is referring to is I'm going off to Los Angeles. In fact, I have my bags with me now as soon as the show is over, I'm going to John F. Kennedy International Airport and flying to LA. We're shooting a pilot. Um, but I can't obviously talk about the pilot because then they would execute
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+[24:34] me. So apparently they have been emailing Nastasia saying what things that I enjoy eating. But the problem is, and this is an interesting fact for those that have never met Nastasia, is that she's vicious. She's a vicious, vicious Jack, true or false. Um... He's just nervous because he doesn't want to, doesn't want to suffer nostalgia's wrath when she gets back. But, yeah, Nastasia is, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so here's the deal. I guarantee you, and I'll find out when I get there. I guarantee you, Nastasia has only said either things that are embarrassing to
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+[25:10] me or that I actually despise, right? And the funny thing is, there are very few things I actually despise. She'll say something like this. get pretzel sticks, even though everyone on earth knows I detest pretzel sticks because they're not real pretzels. Specifically, I said real pretzels and they have to be in not. I like that, but do they even have those in California? I mean, that's an east coast thing, right? they have real pretzels? We have spiders. Siders isn't that bad, right? No, Snyder's okay. Snyders used to be one of the best, but they've been stale now for about 15 years or 20 years. The Snyders that come in a box have been stale, but that's old school. I used to eat those. That's what the Arnold clan has been, you know, my, I know I've discussed this on the air before, but I'm going to Florida soon,
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+[25:55] not only to taste mangoes, which, you know, maybe we'll talk about later if we have enough time, maybe
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+[25:59] not, with Nastasia and Harold McGee. And, uh, I'm hoping to get Tony uh, Konoyaro out, but I don't think he's going to be able to go. But, um, you know, anyways, right after that, I'm visiting my uh, 92-year-old uh, grandpa and my 90 uh,
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+[26:14] eight-year-old uh, great uncle, Uncle Luke. I think I told you this, my kids want to visit him because they think he's Uncle Luke Skywalker. They have no they have no idea. Anyway, um, he, uh, back in the Depression worked in a pretzel factory. And so back in the, because they're all from Lancaster County, you know, Pennsylvania. And so they, yeah, so I come from a pretzel eating background, you are not related to me unless you like eating
+
+[26:39] pretzels. And the 1st thing you learn in my house is that pretzels must be twisted. So what else did you tell them I liked? Did you tell them I, but, you know, for those of you out there, if you want to send me something I hate? The only 2 foods in the world that I don't like are Nato, which is, I've discussed this, and Harold McGee says he has a Nato that I'm actually going to like, which is a fermented soybean product that to me tastes like garbage. And the other is melon. I don't like melons. So did you tell them to get me plenty of cantaloupe, even though you know I hate it? No, I'm not going to tell you what I told them. It'll be surprising you get there. It's going to be something like really embarrassing. Like, make sure... Hey, you know what? Here's what. going to go out on a limb. There are things that are people are embarrassed by that I am not embarrassed by. I am not embarrassed to have a big pink drink in my hands. Like a giant pink, fruity drink in my hands. If it's delicious. I have no problem with it, right? I mean, what do you think? Like, I know there are certain drinks that if I see a dude with them. I'm like, really? that what you're going to have. That's what you're going to drink, but like, I think that if there is a, if there's a really good drink, then, you know, you... You know what? Light beer would embarrass you more than having a drink with a flour garnish in it. I don't, yeah, I don't, I mean, look, I don't understand light beer. I really don't. I don't, I just don't, I don't, I don't understand it. I mean, okay, okay. One caveat. Like right now you're on the beach, right? Is it piss hot where you are? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, you know, a corona has its place there, which is basically a light beer, right? I mean, because it's basically like, I want to have a little bit of alcohol and feel a little bit festive, but what I really want to do is drink seltzer water.
+
+[28:17] Right? Right? So, like, you know, you feel a little bit bad just ordering a seltzer, and you feel bad ordering a light beer, so you order a corona, which is essentially a light beer without the light beer label anyway. How the hell do we get on this subject? I have no idea. Things you like and dislike. No, yeah, because of California. Anyway, okay. So let's get to a real question here. Uh, this is uh, this is from, uh, I hope I pronounce this right. Myrica. Hi, Nastasia and Dave. Perhaps, I was like, Oh, we got a call on. So, Mark, I'll get back to you one question in a minute. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Josh and Tampa. How you doing, Dave? Hey, doing all right. Good. Got a question. A couple years ago I bought the Flavor Bible. It's got a lot of good ideas, but I wonder if you could elaborate on the actual act of balancing flavors. I know something's too salty. You could add something acidic and if something's too bitter, you add sweet, but I mean, how do you find tuna recipe? Huh, that's interesting. I actually own that, but I always I always mix it up with different books. Who are the authors on that one again? I couldn't tell you right off my head. Yeah, uh, the idea of balance is really, uh, it's really interesting. I tend, you know, if you, every cook has their own feeling for what
+
+[29:31] they, what they do to, to balance and usually when you taste something, you know, you know why it's flat. If it, you know, if it, if it's flat. Also, by the way, when I'm balancing a dish, what I'll tend to do is take a little bit of that dish out and then play with that little bit of the dish on the side so that I can kind of see which direction
+
+[29:49] my my additions are taking it so I don't kind of botch the whole thing up. But if something just tastes overall, like low in flavor, dead. I add a pinch of salt to see whether the whole thing wakes up a little bit. And if it does, I'll keep adding a little more. I mean, 1st of all, like getting the salt balance right, I think is the most important thing. And then the next one is, you know, almost always, um, you know, dishes, especially
+
+[30:13] braises or any, anything like that, like big liquid-based things tend to be tend to lack
+
+[30:19] acidity unless you specifically added it. Um, but, you know, typically you'll add those things uh, towards the end of cooking. So, you know, 1st I'll usually 1st check a salt component, and then I'll check a, uh, and then I'll
+
+[30:32] check an acidity. And I personally do a lot of like meaty umami bolstering stuff either with fish sauce or with
+
+[30:42] uh, or with soy. Um, so even in um, non-western, I mean, even in Western dishes, I'll end up hitting it with like a little bit of not like a, not a normal
+
+[30:54] uh, fish sauce, one of the milder, more kind of meaty fish sauces like uh, like Ishiri from Japan or, or IU, which you can get from Japan. Um, because some of the, you know, some of the more traditional Southeast Asian ones can kind of quickly take on that Southeast Asian flavor otherwise, or tiny bits of
+
+[31:12] soy, and not really so that you know you've done it just so that you kind of like really like,
+
+[31:17] like blow something out a little bit. It just really changes it and rounds it into more meetings. So like even like in like a bechamel. Sometimes I'll add a pinch of those kind of things. I tend not to have MSG in my house or I might experiment with that. So in general, I don't do a lot of like masking, right? So, also, obviously you add sugar to things to round them out. But in general, what I think in terms of balance is that you want to get, you want to get the overall flavor pretty good. Like when you make a stock, right? You don't season the stock from the get go. You try to balance meat and vegetable, and it's very kind
+
+[31:56] of, but when you taste it, you could tell what it could be, but it's very flat because it doesn't have any of the other things that are in
+
+[32:03] it, and you want it that way because you're going to reduce it by a lot. And so that's when you bring out the balancing act. First, you pop up all the flavors by adding something like salt, which is going to enhance the flavor of everything. And then, or, you know, or something's too salty, you can add sweetness, which is going to balance out the saltiness, which
+
+[32:19] was, I think, kind of the thing you were talking about before. The problem with that is that if you go that route, if you, what you don't want to be in a position of
+
+[32:26] as having to tone down another flavor by adding another flavor on top of
+
+[32:31] it, because then everything just gets kind of overwhelming over time, I think you, you know what I'm saying? Do you agree or no? No, I agree because I've been trying to make like an Asian style cedar salad using fish sauce and egg yolk and I've been trying
+
+[32:43] to, hasn't been really going that well. Right. I mean, I think what you want to do on that, because that sounds actually like a good idea. You should try to source this stuff called IU, which is this IU sauce. It's a sweet fish from Japan, and I don't know who's carrying this stuff, but it's the most unbelievable fish sauce I've ever had. It's crazy because it's a dead cross between fish sauce and like bacon and ham juice. It's nuts. It's crazy Ah, you, AYU. Yeah. But the, I think it's available now, but I'm not sure. It's, it's, it's amazing stuff. But I think what you're gonna want to do on the on the fish sauce is use it as a very minor
+
+[33:21] component. Do you know what I mean? Like, one dash of fish sauce in, like, a Caesar style thing is going to really pop and bring out that
+
+[33:30] fish sauce, essence, especially are you are you doing it in addition to anchovy? No. Instead of anchovy. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge anchovy fan, but, um, you know, there's another way to go if you want to go, uh, stick with a more Italian kind of flavor set. There's a fish, uh, product called Colatura, which is basically like, uh, like an anchovy like oil. It doesn't taste like fish sauce, but it's kind of in between like an, like it's not fermented, but it's got some of the kind of the funkiness of, uh, of, uh, anchovies. You can take a look at that. You can get that from Italian specialty markets, but they charge an arm and a leg for it. I think, like, if you were to go and use an anchovy, because I always put anchovy in my Caesar salad, you know, you
+
+[34:15] crush, I'll crush it up for the flavor and also the emulsifying stuff. I tend to use salt pack anchovies because I like them a lot. But, um, I think a dash of fish sauce and that could really work well. The problem, how much were you adding before? Uh about a tablespoon? Yeah, so I would just go a lot less. I mean, fish sauce is one of those things where it's like small amounts, like add this kind of ineffable quality that, you know, that it's hard to get any other way. And then you add a little bit more and now it tastes Asian on you. Do you know what I mean? Which is good if that's what you're looking for. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. The only thing I'm trying to find a substitute for the Parmesan or the aspect of it. Oh, yeah. It's not really a cheese thing going on. You mean, because you don't want cheese because of the Asian component or because, yeah, and
+
+[35:01] it's interesting. Um, you know, the lack of dairy in uh, in Asian cuisine, something I've been studying uh, recently, uh, but also it's funny is the lack of dairy in uh, like Italian classic or a lot of European fish-based dishes.
+
+[35:16] And I think that in the one case of dairy in Asia, A lot of China, for instance, in the north, and then, you know, even throughout the middle section used to eat a lot of dairy.
+
+[35:27] And I think what happened during the Ming dynasty. There was a reaction against anything having to do with kind of like northern invaders that they had just basically thrown off the yoke from. And since dairy was considered something that came from kind of Central Asia and the north, they were like crap on dairy. We don't want to use it anymore. You know what I mean? And then in Italian and European food, I think the lack of dairy
+
+[35:50] with, specifically with fish-based products, I guess, except for things like Caesar salad, which is not Italian, but, you know, as a European derivative, is that fish was eaten on fast
+
+[36:00] days, and on fast days, you didn't have dairy. You only had, you had no meat and you had no dairy. So you had fish. And I think that's where a lot of the, you know, for instance, fish pastas don't have cheese on them because of this ancient, uh, not ancient, but this, you know, kind of old idea
+
+[36:16] that you that, you know, on days that when you're having fish, you're not having any dairy. Anyway, but that's aside from the point. So, uh, it's very hard to substitute for, um, Parmesan very hard. Um, nothing kind of tastes like that. I mean, you can make an entirely different thing. In other words, you could use an egg yolk and then do like fish sauce and some sort of
+
+[36:42] like, you know, something with a lot of enzyme breakdown products in it, like maybe like a
+
+[36:46] miso and then, you know, lime juice. I think it would taste good. It wouldn't taste like a Caesar salad. Do you know what I mean? No, no, that sounds great. Yeah. Oh, and then, you know, if you're going to want to add some of the, the, that texture back, you could, uh, I mean, nothing has that texture
+
+[37:02] either what has that texture. I mean, you could crumple something like very, you know, like, what could you crumple? I mean, I don't know if you like tempeh. Is the idea to go vegetarian except for the egg? No, there's no vegetarianness. All right, fish sauce. What the heck am I talking about? Brainless. Anyway, the, yeah, I'm trying to think of what I would add for the texture component of that. But I would try like a flavor base like that because that's delicious because the acid's really
+
+[37:27] going to balance out the, I mean, official loss. I mean, that's classic. You know what I mean? And then I think the egg yolk is going to add some body that you wouldn't normally get in a anything like that, bring it closer to a Caesar salad. And, you know, there's so many different flavors to play with with miso that I think you can really balance then
+
+[37:43] also, not just body, but sweetness and amino acid, you know, those amino flavors that you get in miso. So I would try that. Um, you want to talk about, uh, I mean, have you been offered any uh, TV jobs? I know like the celebrity chef is huge and your friends with a lot of the big ones. I wanna see if they can come your way. Because I've been reading your article. Uh, was it on, um, Food Republic? On, uh, oh, oh, uh, no, or eater? No, no. Yeah, well, it's an interesting thing. I've done a lot of, I've done a lot of, you know, little spots on, you know, the expert for X, Y, and Z. And like I say, I'm going to shoot a pilot now. If that pilot, you know, takes off, I'll be a recurring character on that show. But, you know, the TV's really hard because, you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
+
+[38:36] And, um, uh, you know, the kind of what I'm interested in is fairly niche, you know,
+
+[38:43] so like we have a fair, you know, we have a, the people that read the blog or listen to the show, you know, I really, I really, um, like them because, you know, they, they are dedicated to this kind of weird stuff
+
+[38:56] that, uh, I'm in general interested in, but it's hard to sell on a, on a TV. It's hard to sell on TV because, um, it's, I don't think it's mass, mass market enough. I mean, hopefully that that'll change. But that's always been the problem is trying to figure out something that, um, they could sell as kind of a mass market, um, show that is something that I'm still interested in. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's like a nerd question, actually, opinion. Do you think that modern gastronomy will ever make it to like the Chili's or the Friday's level where these dishes that were, you know, that have been done so much that nobody doesn't anymore,
+
+[39:32] but, you know, they could do it over there without anybody scoffing. You think it'll ever reach there just for like the novelty
+
+[39:39] aspect, which modern cooks try to avoid? Right. Well, okay. I mean, there's there's a couple of things. I think that there, um, there's definitely, um, in those, in those realms. There's a search for novelty, but it's very, very kind of rained in. It has to be extremely friendly, but novel. So, you know, they'll spend like a bazillion dollars to come up with a new flavor that's a tiny bit outside of the box, but
+
+[40:07] it's so friendly that someone will still order it. So some of the some of the more challenging stuff that's being done in modern cuisine is not going to trickle down anytime soon. Um, you know, there's certain exceptions, like, you know, garnishes or techniques, but the core techniques that are being used
+
+[40:24] in, uh, in new technologies, a lot of them come from, um, kind of a similar wellspring of ideas
+
+[40:33] that that those guys use. So, you know, I mean, one of the major, one of the major things that Faran really did was say, let me look at industrial
+
+[40:43] food manufacturing and see what it has to teach us about cooking. So, you know, and I feel that some of these techniques that are being used to make food
+
+[40:55] better that were just industrial techniques before are going to be used in places that are more mass market to make food better eventually. And I think, you know, one of the key things is low low temperature cooking. If, you know, when I go to the shows where I see the equipment that's being sold to restaurants and food service change now, over the past couple of years, there's been a big
+
+[41:16] ground swell movement to move towards better temperature control.
+
+[41:20] And what that means is people are going to care more and more about not overcooking their products or keeping them in top conditions.
+
+[41:26] And to me, that's one of the core things about kind of this new mode of cooking. And like one of the core values is, is that. And so I think that is definitely moving into what's going on. Now, are you ever going to see liquid nitrogen at Applebee's? I don't know. I don't think so. Do you know what I mean? Uh, unless it became kind of cost-effective where they could get. I mean, I could see someone like, you know, I could see Chuck E. Cheese making liquid nitrogen ice cream as part of
+
+[41:52] the, as part of the, you know, the pizza party thing for kids with the video games. I could see that because it's cool. Um, but, you know, I don't know whether any of the actual dishes are going to make
+
+[42:03] it. But I think that there is going to be a trickle down to some of these techniques because, um, they just have legs. You know, some of some of them don't, some of some of them do, you know? Right on, yeah. All right, well, thanks for calling in. No problem. All right. And, uh, before we run out of time, I should answer the question that
+
+[42:22] Myrick had, because it's an interesting one, even though we've, uh, spoken a little bit about something similar before. Nastasia, you still there? All right. So Monaco writes in, she says, perhaps my cooking issue is not very high tech, but of course, we like all cooking issues, right, Nastasia? Yeah. Yeah. But since she loves our show more than any other show, which we really appreciate. I hope you could share some nuggets of wisdom on the subject of pit roasting a pig. Uh, she's, she's doing that. She's pit roasting a pig. We have here, this is her talking. We have a hole and a £100 Berkshire hog and a ton of banana leaves. We have pretty basic instructions, but absolutely no experience with pit roasting. I'm willing to go to any lengths to get excellent results, any special tips, tools, or references. Okay. Okay, I like the fact that you said we were willing to go through any lengths to get excellent results. I appreciate that. Here is your main problem, is that you have a single £100 pig and it's very hard to get it right the 1st time around. If you're gonna, if you're gonna pit roast a pig, the basic, the basic procedures are you build a fire, uh, and you use rocks, you heat rocks with, with a wood fire, uh, I guess you can
+
+[43:31] use circle, but wood fire. And those rocks retain the heat that is then going to cook the animal over a long period of time after you bury it over with
+
+[43:39] dirt, right? The other basic principle is that you're going to wrap the pig in banana leaves in your case, which is going to do
+
+[43:48] 2 things, which is going to keep the moisture in. Well, it's going to keep the moisture in. It's also going to stop the dirt from getting all over the pig. The key things, one, you want to make sure that your stones aren't going to explode. So, but what I would do is I would find you want to find stones that don't have a lot of contained water in them that don't have a lot of fissures that could break
+
+[44:10] apart. And then what I would do is build a fire outside and throw a bunch of rocks into it, right? And see whether step away, step away from the rocks. And then if they explode, they explode. You know, I've had rocks, you know, I've done a lot of work with heating
+
+[44:26] rocks, and indeed they explode, and when a rock explodes, it's no joke. You know what I mean? It's like sprays everywhere, little shards of rock and stuff. I totally freaked out the pastry. you know, one of the pastry chefs in a kitchen at the school because I was heating rocks over a burner. So I would preheat the rocks, check it, dig a pit. Um, then you're going to need to heat the rocks for um, for several hours. I would also, if you were willing to go through any lengths, I would definitely fire up the oven once, get something that
+
+[44:59] is, like, has a similar weight to the pig, you know, that is cheaper than a pig, uh, and then uh, attempt to roast it all the way through in
+
+[45:08] the in the earth as a test for your system, right? So what you're going to need to do is build up a big enough layer of rock, such that it retains heat for long enough to cook the pig all the way through, right?
+
+[45:19] Even though it's not going to be so hot that it's going to overcook or ruin the pig at any one point. So I would get some long, if you can, I would get some long thermocouples, which aren't that expensive. You can get them for like $15, $20 apiece on Amazon, really long ones. And then a thermocouple thermometer and embed them into the ground in several points along your proposed oven, bury it like you were
+
+[45:42] going to make the thing after it's been fired up. And then take measurement to the temperatures over time. And you're going to want it to, it can stay up fairly high. It's never going to go really above boiling point because you're going to, it's going to
+
+[45:56] braise basically because it's covered in, it's, you're not going to evaporate the moisture because it's wrapped up in the, in
+
+[46:01] the banana leaves. So I would, uh, I would measure it and make sure that it, you know, it stays up in kind of that braising range for several hours and then maintains a temperature above the
+
+[46:13] cook point of the pork, which is going to be in roughly 60 Celsius or 140 Fahrenheit for a good, uh, depending on,
+
+[46:22] I can't picture how big around a £100 pig is, but not that much. I think like a good, like 6 hours or something like that, if it stays around, hovers around there, but isn't too high for that range. I think you're going to be good. I read a very good idea that somebody had. Um, and I will get you the website because it's a, seems to be a fairly decent reference on how to build this. It's a recipe cottage. Oh, recipecottage.com, forward slash, uh, forward slash, uh, forward
+
+[46:53] slash whole roast pig. Um, you know, you search for that, but it has a good idea that you wrap the pig after you do the banana
+
+[47:01] leaves. You wrap the pig in chicken wire so that you can easily pick it up without the pig totally falling apart.
+
+[47:08] I think that's a kind of a genius, a genius idea. The other thing you're going to want to do is take care of the meat. One of the problems with cooking whole animals is that no one portion of
+
+[47:19] the of the meat is the same, right? So some cuts want to be cooked by braising over a long period of time to break down the collagen. Those ones are the ones that are going to taste best using this kind of a technique because they have enough collagen in them that when they're cooked, they're going to stay unctuous, even though the meat has technically gone well above the temperature that you would want to cook it, if you were just cooking it, let's
+
+[47:42] say, as a steak or medium rare. But the other muscles, like the loin, the things that don't have a lot of exercise or a lot of
+
+[47:49] movement. These ones, even if they stay juicy because you wrap them and they have enough in trained moisture in it,
+
+[47:54] from the thing, they're going to be not prime texture because those muscles aren't meant to be cooked that long. And this is the problem, I think. I don't think it's possible to cook a whole animal, such that unless you go through crazy lengths, like I did with the turkey that, you know, I made
+
+[48:13] an artificial aluminum skeleton for and pumped, you know, molten, you know, hot butter through it. I mean, like, you know, unless you go through bonkers, things, it's very hard to get a whole animal to come together at the same time. So, um, one thing I would do is, is if you can salt out or get some salt or something in the areas that don't have as much
+
+[48:32] connected tissue beforehand, that is going to protect them a little bit by having them keep more moisture by basically making the muscles be able to hold onto the water a little bit
+
+[48:41] better. So I would definitely do that. I would I wish you could run some tests. It's all about running tests first, since I've never cooked one underground. I've done spit roast whole pigs. And the idea there is to basically stretch out the animals that all meats get done at the same amount in the same amount of time. So you're also going to have a problem with your pig that if you have places in the thigh in the leg, especially where the leg meets the body, it's going to be very thick there. And so that's going to take the longest to cook and you'll be ruining the rest of the meat while that's happening.
+
+[49:10] That's why a lot of recipes will tell you to score out the meat. Um, so you can get down close to the bone in those areas, but then you have the problem of you're going to leach a lot of juices out during that procedure, even if you wrap it
+
+[49:20] in banana leaves. So, I mean, I don't know whether if I was going to do it myself. I might stretch it out so it's long and then wrap it, although that goes against what I think most people would tell you to do. But I'm going to try to do a little more research. Um, maybe post something if you post something to eater to the eater thing. Hopefully I'll have some time to do some more research later this week and I can have some more definitive answers for you,
+
+[49:44] Marika. But thanks for writing in. And I think I'm, I think I might have to either do this from LA next
+
+[49:51] week or I might have, hope I don't have to skip a week, right, Jack? That would be terrible. That would be awful. Nastasia, thanks for joining us from sunny Rhode Island. Hey, Nastash. I heard that you found a skate on the beach and instead of eating it, you threw it back in the water. What's up with that? The seagull had already attacked it. Well, which is it? Which is it? The seagull attacked and it was going to die anyway, in which case you should have eaten it or what? I threw it back in. Don't you like skate? No. Is that the same thing as a singer? No, do you skate? Skate's delicious. You don't like skate? Maybe it was a stingray then, because it looked like a stingray. They don't have, no, skates look like stingrays, but they're not like a stingray. I mean, they look like mini stingrays. How am I going to bring it in, Dave? How am I gonna bring it in? It was on the beach, you said. Yeah, but with my bare hand. Yeah. Anyway, skate's delicious. You know, another one of those things that for years and years and years was a trash fish, they would throw it
+
+[50:51] away because no one realized how delicious it was. Delicious, delicious fish. Anyway, this has been cooking issues. Please come back next week.
+
+[51:06] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes
+
+[51:26] Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you dirty rap. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Keeper. In the wake of the massive E. coli outbreak in Germany, which was finally traced to organic sprouts, the editors of
+
+[52:13] Food Safety News published an editorial suggesting that all sprouts should come with a warning label.
+
+[52:19] The CDC, or Center for Disease Control, is echoing that sentiment saying sprouts are not healthy food for everyone. Children, the elderly and persons who immune, whose immune systems are not functioning well, should not eat raw sprouts, because current treatment of seeds and sprouts cannot get rid of all the bacteria present.
+
+[52:37] Persons who are at high risk for complications from foodborne illness should probably not eat raw sprouts. According to an article in the current issue of emerging infectious diseases, CDC's
+
+[52:48] Peer Review Journal, which tracks new and reemerging infectious diseases worldwide. Although sprouts are often considered a health food, the warm, humid conditions needed for growing sprouts from seeds are also ideal for bacteria to flourish. Salmonella, E. coli, and other bacteria can grow to high levels without affecting the appearance of the sprouts.
+
+[53:08] Researchers have treated both seeds and sprouts with heat or washed them in solutions of chlorine. Yum, alcohol, and other chemicals. Some of these disinfectants reduced the levels of bacteria, but a potential hazard remained, especially for persons with weak immune
+
+[53:23] systems that would be the elderly children, pregnant women, etc. High temperatures that would kill the bacteria on the seeds would also keep them from sprouting. So until an effective way is found to prevent illness from sprouts. They really should be eaten with caution, if at all. And by the way, it's national sprout month. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Check out a small clip from the food scene hosted by Michael Harlan Turkel, a show where food and art intersect. I think most recently you had a chocolate waterfall that had 5 tons of chocolate flowing, and you'd put on, what, a protective suit, walk through a waterfall, make your own chocolates within this kind of contained environment.
+
+[54:05] And most recently, a rabbit cafe. Yep. Can you explain that one to me a little bit? Well, and this also slightly comes from jellies as well, because in England, everyone has these rabbit jelly molds. It's the most popular mall then because, oh, I had rabbit jetties for a kid. We've always been utterly bewildered by it. Why why rabbit jellies? The only way to get to the bottom of it was to get a whole herd of rabbits, open a cafe with them and have people touch rabbits and
+
+[54:33] these. Yeah. So it kind of has resonance with one of one of our favorite cookbooks, which we think an awful lot of, you know, modern chefs
+
+[54:42] have, is their dark secret under their pillow, which the future is. want to hear more? Well, tune into the food scene live every week, Tuesdays at 3 p.m. Or you can find all the archive shows on our website or subscribe to the podcast in iTunes. Thanks for listening. The following is a message from Zingermans. From June 30th to July 3rd, 2011. Come hang out at Camp Bacon, a 4 day festival hosted by Zingermans. The main event is an all day affair at Zingerman's Roadhouse, featuring plenty of bacon, bacon learning, and such luminaries as Alan Benton, John T. Edge, Molly
+
+[55:23] Stevens, and more. The event will be taking place in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Proceeds from this event benefit Southern Foodways Alliance. Also on Friday, July 1st, he'll be of special benefit performance featuring Andre Williams and the gold stars and special guest John Langford and Skull Orchard.
+
+[55:41] Visit www.zingermanscampbacon.com for more information and for tickets. Once again, that's www.zingermanscampbacon.com. The following is a public service announcement from Just Food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the Just Food
+
+[56:05] City Chicken Project 2011. The City Chicken Project would not be possible without the volunteer hours, donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work
+
+[56:15] with. Just food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make
+
+[56:23] fresh, locally grown food accessible to all. To donate, search on Kickstarter.com for just food and find their city chicken project.
+
+[56:31] For more information on just food, visit justfood.org or call 212-645-9880. That's 212-645-9880. Let's keep making New York City a better place to live and eat.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:06] You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. Whole Foods Market is a proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network and the Department of
+
+[0:30] Transportation, Summer Streets, a three-day series of events dedicated to healthy, active living on the car free streets of New York City. Join us at the Whole Foods Market City picnic area on 24th Street and Park Avenue, the 1st 3 Saturdays in August. Find more information at the DOT's website, Keywords Summer Streets.
+
+[1:01] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did, yeah.
+
+[1:07] Hello and welcome to live cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here on the Heritage Radio Network, coming to you every Tuesday, except the last 3 ones from 12 to
+
+[1:20] 1245. I am in Roberta's, but Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, you know, the motor of the cooking issues
+
+[1:28] bus, is actually going to call in from North Carolina from the Outer Banks, but I think she's having some technical issues. We'll get her when she comes in. Let me call in all your questions, by the way, all your live questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So I'll take the 1st question 1st and that's from Ross McGuire from Dublin. I'm excited to have a someone who listens in Dublin. I've only managed to go to Ireland once, and I only got to spend a couple hours in Dublin, which is
+
+[1:57] preposterous because from all accounts, it's a great city, and I'm anxious to go back. So very excited. I'm getting a question from Dublin and was wondering, are we still on? I was wondering if you and Dave are still doing cooking issues. Nastasia and Dave are still doing cooking issues on Heritage Radio. I pick it up as a podcast and it's become a huge favorite of mine every week. And we have been a source of inspiration, which we appreciate. Ross thinks he's stuck in Dublin. I would say you were lucky to be in Dublin. And anyways, hoping that we're coming back sometime soon. Well, here we are. And I'll tell you why, Ross, that we haven't been on for the past 3 weeks. The past 3 Tuesdays in a row, I have been in transit from one place to the other. Three Tuesdays ago, I was flying back from California because I was lucky enough to go shoot a pilot for ABC. God knows if it'll ever get aired. But it was a cooking-based thing where I was a judge. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to talk about it except for, I will tell you, that I have tasted peacock now, whereas I hadn't tasted it before. Peacock, as you might know, was one of the animals that was highly prized as a
+
+[3:07] foodstuff from the Roman times, perhaps before, but I know from the Roman
+
+[3:11] times, up through the Middle Ages, primarily because it's a really amazing looking bird, because by all accounts, it didn't taste very
+
+[3:20] good. It was kind of dry and stringy, especially using the cooking techniques at the time. And I have to say, it, you know, has the ability to become a very tough stringy bird, but it, from my experience over the past couple
+
+[3:31] of weeks, can be cooked properly. And then the last 2 weeks, I've been en route from
+
+[3:36] and to Florida where the main business I did down there. I did, actually, a few guys are familiar with the truck, you know, the food truck explosion that's been going
+
+[3:46] on. One of the best ones around is a gastropod in Miami done by Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog. And we did a, you know, an event together in
+
+[3:56] Miami where I did cocktails along with a Chadzilla crew, if you know that blog. And it was a really good time. But I also went down there with Harold McGee and Nastasia to taste exotic fruits and mangoes. And we had some of the most amazing mangoes. We, unfortunately, because we were caught in a torrential torrential downpour both days in a row, only got to sample, maybe. I haven't really counted yet, but maybe 60 to 80 types of mangoes. I like to do at least a 100 in a one or 2 day tasting just so you can get the kind of a full variety of different kinds of flavors that a particular fruit can
+
+[4:30] do. So, you know, when we did citrus, we did a one day citrus that was over a 100 varieties, we did a
+
+[4:36] two-day apple that was over 200 varieties, a pair day that was a 100 variety. It's a nice round number because then you could say that, you know, you've exhaustively tasted at least that many. And you really do get, you really, after the 1st 40 or 50, get an idea of the range of flavors that can go on. But I had no idea how good a mango can be because the mangoes that are shipped up to New York all go through a process, no matter where they come from, even if they come from Florida, of going through a heat
+
+[5:02] treatment, to kill fruit flies and any other insects that might be nesting in the, you know,
+
+[5:07] or, you know, whatever they do inside of the mango. So they're immersed in hot water, and that hot water can kill some of the aromas and also prevent the natural ripening process from taking place exactly as it otherwise would have.
+
+[5:20] So basically, the mangoes we get can be okay, but they're never going to be the world's greatest mangoes.
+
+[5:27] So, you know, went to Florida, got them off the tree, and I, and in various ripenesses and various flavors. There's a couple of different styles of mango, right? They roughly break down into ones that have derived from the Indians, Indian mangoes, ones that have derived from Southeast Asian, like Thai style mangoes.
+
+[5:43] And then there's a bunch of Florida mangoes that are kind of their own thing that are hybrids of those that have been brought in, but also Egyptian
+
+[5:51] mangoes, delicious. So there's a wide variety of mangoes. And I hope to have a blog post on that soon, but I, you know, I was amazed at the kind of different
+
+[5:59] flavors that could come out of a mango. There, one that tastes like a cream sickle, many, many that have a, like a coconut. amazing, amazing stuff. Anyway, uh, Oh, nostalgia's online. Hey nostache, how you doing? Good, how are you? How are the Outer Banks? It's actually not that human down here. Give me a break. I have you know, I've been there. I have you know, I've been there before. But you know I would tell you the truth. It's actually not that human. So it's not humid. No, I mean, not right now. It's about 85 right now. Yeah, but nothing feels humid when it's 85. Tell me when it gets up to 95 degrees. I will. I will. check back in. Here's what I don't want to know. I don't want to know, is it comfortable? That is a useless piece of information to me. I want to know the exact temperature and humidity because, you know, 85 degrees, even when it's like a zillion percent humidity, especially because I know you're stepping into an air conditioned house when you step into it. So you're like, man, it feels great in this air conditioned house. No I'm outside right now. I'm on a porch. You're on a porch right now. And it's not humid. I mean, there's a little bit of moisture there, but not what I was expecting. Well, it's not 95 degrees yet. When's it going to get up to be like nine? Like three, like 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock. All right. So at 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, you know, I wish that everyone could be on the air, so you can call me back. I could hear you gasping for breath while you tell me how not humid it is in the
+
+[7:18] Outer Banks up there. Okay. Yeah. Super. I mean, look, like I say, I've been there and maybe like I happen to be there on the only summer that is so hot and humid that you want to die.
+
+[7:31] In fact, like even the green flies, which suck half of your blood in the 30 seconds that you're outside, if you're out near sunset, we're too tired and lazy to come kill me, but I somehow doubt
+
+[7:41] that. Uh-huh. Anyway. I'll check back with you. You have a lot of questions to answer. Yeah, well, I just answered Ross McGuire's question on, do we still exist? And happily for us, we still we still do exist. Okay, so, uh, by the way, I will regive you the number in case someone just realized that we are live again. 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. But I do have a lot of questions that came in in the interim while we were away. So I'll go right to it. Howard writes in with a question about papayas. I have a question about papayas. I've been eating a lot of papaya lately, which I can't get down with you on this because, Howard, because at some reason, papaya is one of the fruits that I haven't learned to love. I just, I can't, something about it, that's not, not me. I love, love, like an unripe papaya as a crunchy element, a salad, things like that, but I haven't figured out how to
+
+[8:30] love. I don't hate them, but I haven't figured out how to love a ripe of pie. What about you, Nastasia? Yeah, I feel the same, but I do, I do like the fact that they're good for stomach ailments. Well, okay. I mean, you know how I feel about taking things for food is medicine. You know how I feel about it. But, I mean, maybe it works. Who knows? God only knows, I certainly don't. Okay, I've been eating a lot of papaya lately, and usually this is Howard, by the way, not me. And usually I peel and cut up the whole fruit and store it in the fridge. I've noticed that when I get to the bottom of my container, there's always a papaya jelly, presumably made from the papaya juices. Do you know what's going on there? Is there any way this phenomenon can be put to good use, i.e. in a cake,
+
+[9:07] Jell-O, et cetera? All right, Howard, because I don't eat a lot of papies. I didn't have a lot of experience with this, so I had to do myself some research. My 1st, you know, theory was, you know, one of the main things in papaya that is useful is a protein, a protein breaking down enzyme, a
+
+[9:24] protease called papayin, which is used as a meat tenderizer. Now, usually when you break down proteins, what happens is, is they break gels. You break proteins down and they lose their strength. Except in certain situations, you can partially break down a protein, and as they actually cause it to gel. And actually papayin is used in certain tests for that for gelling soy, soy proteins.
+
+[9:46] So at 1st I thought maybe that was what's going on, but then I was like, nah, there's not that much protein in the
+
+[9:51] papaya, and I don't really know how that would work. Then I was thinking perhaps you were getting a low temperature yeast or bacteria in there. I was like, nah, no. But then I came across an article that you were going to enjoy called
+
+[10:01] Stability Studies of Papaya Pectin Esterace. All right. It is a known fact that papaya has extremely active pectinesterase enzyme in it. I only known about, I'd only known about the protein breaking down enzyme, the papayin,
+
+[10:16] but and to Nastasia's point. A lot of people take papaya because of it has lots of bioactive molecules in it, more than many fruits, okay? And pectinestres is, and a lot of fruits have it, but I guess not in the same quantity, not the same activity.
+
+[10:29] What pectinestraase does is actually joins pectins together, making them bigger. And actually, does it do that? No. Does it join them? No, it just strengthens them. I don't think it actually polymerizes them. Ah, who knows? I don't know. But it makes them stronger. And what happens is, is that, um, papaya can self-gel based on the activity of this pectinesterase, once the, uh, once the juice has been released from it. I will read you the 1st paragraph of this. papaya pectinemstrace, it's a pectic enzyme which has important influence on the quality and stability of processed papaya products. A short period after papaya is poked into puree, a gel is formed. This gel formation has been attributed to the enzymatic action of pectinesterase by Yamamoto in InuA in 1963. Pectinestre is also a great concern to the citrus industry, since it has definitely been established that it can cause clarification of citrus juices and
+
+[11:17] gelation of concentrates, which is interesting to me. I've never thought of using it as a way to clarify. Of course, I have I use the opposite enzyme. I use, um, I use a, uh, wait, shoot,
+
+[11:29] pectinesterase. Anyway, yeah, I use one that breaks down. I use one that breaks down pectins to clarify things. But anyway, so that seems to me to be your answer. I don't, what it's basically doing is making a stronger pectin out of it, a pectin gel. So I don't know that you could use it in cake or Jell-O, but maybe you could make up a pie of juice and have it gel on its own as a good jelly.
+
+[11:49] I don't know what the texture of it is, but hopefully this answers your question and it's very intriguing, something that I might study more. Maybe I'll even learn to like papaya. What do you think, Nastasia? Maybe, maybe if we tried a lot of papayas we'd find one that we like. That's possible. Try a couple 100 papas. There were a couple down in Florida when we tried that, but you know, I just didn't even look at them. I didn't even bother, you know? You know what's another one? You know what's another one? Here's one that ticks me off. Guava, right? People just say people just say guava. I mean, the hell does that mean? Like, the different guavas taste so stupidly different that to just say guava, I mean, it doesn't really make any
+
+[12:28] sense because I'd never been a huge guava person as a fresh food. I had lots of guava juices that I like, but I've, you know, I have never been a huge kind of fresh guava person, but then the last 2 times we visited
+
+[12:38] Florida to taste. We had really kind of interesting guavas, right? Yeah. But like unrelated and taste to each other, right? I mean, some were very acidic, like the cast that we had. Some were kind of, you know, so lacking in acidity that I found them kind of
+
+[12:50] sweet and insipid. I really hate fruit that just has sweet with no acidity. Do you know what I mean? don't you? Yes, I know. I know you do Oh, to test it. Hate it. I would much rather. yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. I mean, I'm that guy walking around eating the unripe berries off of trees and hoping I don't die. I don't actually do that. I only do it if I know what the berry is. And getting poison ivy. Getting poison ivy. Yes, yes, that's a story story for later. Okay. Aaron Oster, formerly a Salum Maria. Where is he now? Oh gosh, I don't remember. Another salumi place. Good job, good job, good job remembering. Anyway, Aaron Oscar writes in about round Cambros and coffee. I hope all is well. I was seeing you the other day. I'm writing because I have a question for Dave. I think only he can answer, although it's probably not true. Is there any advantage for making iced coffee via the 12 to 16 hour steep method in a round Cambro versus a square one, a
+
+[13:38] Cambro for all of these who don't use Cambros. It's basically just either square around plastic food containers that have marks of like courts and
+
+[13:46] leaders on the side and they're very common in professional kitchens. You know, we typically use the four, the 7 and the 22 liter, 22 quart Cambros, the most. But they, you know, that's what that's what he's talking about. Anyway, wants to know whether there's a difference in using the round or the square. The steep method is the here's the steep method he uses. At ground coffee, at room temperature, at ground coffee, to room temperature water stir, and lets sit overnight at room temperature, next morning, filter the coffee through a super fine mesh. And what you're left with is super rich in deep coffee with all the top notes of the coffee and supposedly less bitterness. This is a study that's been, this is, by the way, a type of coffee that's become extremely popular over the past, you know, several years, and a lot of really high powered people are investigating it. I know Harold McGee is investigating it. Don Lee's investigating. A bunch of people are investigating it. You want all of the recipes. They all seem to say that they use circular containers. He's wondering whether the circular versus around makes a difference. I don't think that it makes a difference in terms of the steep, but I haven't done it
+
+[14:41] myself, so I don't know whether or not the actual filtration becomes more or less difficult. I'll give you a story. When we're using an enzyme to break down the pectin in juices, like apple juice, and then letting it set down in the bottom of the container. What ends up happening is we always use round containers because when you pick up the container and move it to start, you know, decanting the clearer
+
+[15:03] stuff that doesn't have the particles off of the top. If you have a square container and you pick it up, The corners start mixing the fluid as you turn it. It acts almost like a mixer because the fluid's in a square shape. And as you turn it, right? The corners kind of start moving the fluid, whereas if you use a round container and pick it up. You can pick it up and spin it, and basically you don't end up stirring the product. You move it very little. So the grounds don't get kicked up. The particles don't get kicked up off of the bottom. So if you're getting advantage with this coffee, in terms of your filtration, by being able to dump relatively clear stuff off of the
+
+[15:39] top, before all the particles go into your fine mess strainer, right? If that's going to increase your filtration efficiency or perhaps even change the taste of it, right, then I would definitely recommend going
+
+[15:49] around. But if you're, you know, stirring it right before you're going to pour it anyway, right, you haven't let it settle for a long time and you're not extremely careful to
+
+[15:58] just, you can't just the top liquid off the top before you start, then I would say it doesn't matter whether it's square around.
+
+[16:03] I don't think it's going to actually make a difference in terms of how it infuses. It's just a question of how you're going to pour the liquid off the top. That makes sense? What do you think, Nastasia? Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Now, I have many more questions, but I'm going to go to my 1st commercial break and we'll come back and answer. Call all your questions. Two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[16:28] you can't go home Oh, your puppets gone. And your life is filled with much confusion. Until your business is nothing new. And the world around is crumbling down. Darling me down. Hello, girl. Pick up my feet, reach up. Reach out for me.
+
+[17:06] But the love will shelter you. I'll be there. When you
+
+[17:21] feel I'm about to give up Welcome back to
+
+[17:26] cooking issues. Call your questions, two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Jack, good choice of break music. Very good. Were you dancing? Oh, you, yeah, I was, you know, feet pounding, fist pumping. Was that was that Jack or was that Eunastas who picked that? No, no, that was Jack. Nah, nice. Good call. We should let him pick it all. anyway. Chris Anderson writes in with a vacuum ceiling question. Hey, Dave, I'm a mini pack 31 I guess MVs, Hughes writes 31X Chamber, vacuum sealer with gas flush. Wow, that's nice. The 31, by the way, is the small unit, which, you know, I'm not saying that I'd like to get one for free, but I'd love to get one for free.
+
+[18:04] I think it's the best unit of that size that's available right
+
+[18:08] now because it's very compact, but it has a much larger chamber size for its size than the equivalent other
+
+[18:14] small, small units that I've had. I think it's like the best home vacuum unit. you know, or small, small commercial. I mean, most restaurants, I think, would kind of outgrow it pretty quickly because of its limited size, but for, you know, a house, it would be perfect
+
+[18:27] hint, right, Nastasia? Yeah. Anyway, what gas flush means, by the way, is that after you seal a vacuum on it, you pull a vacuum on
+
+[18:37] it and you seal it, the air comes back in. If you have gas flush, you can fill that bag with an inert gas, usually
+
+[18:43] nitrogen or depending on what you're doing, CO2, whatever, mix different mixes of gas. Uh, you know, if you're doing fish and you want to be, uh, you know, you want to really ruin everybody, you can put carbon monoxide in there to make
+
+[18:54] it keep red or if you want to do that to meat, if you want to rip off your customer, you can do that too. Anyway, don't do that. Um, So but with the gas flush, you can do that. And the cool thing is you can then package things like potato chips and they don't get crushed because, you know, there's extra gas in there, but it's totally dry gas. So you're not, it's not going to go stale. It's not going to oxidize. I mean, it's good stuff. Anyway, I have some, he has some bulk flour and a few other powder-like ingredients. He wants to vacuum seal to prevent oxidation. His concern is that fine particles are going to disperse throughout the chamber, either during the vacuum or during the nitrogen backfill. Any tips for preventing this. Well, you're not going to have a problem with the powder during the vacuum cycle. I've never, the only thing I've had even minor problems with was some spray dried vinegar powder, which is extremely
+
+[19:41] fine and really wants to fly all over the room. Like you can't, if you pour it into a container, it like, you know, it comes out of the container and chokes you, you know, like, it's crazy stuff. And I vacuum sealed that with only minimal kind of dust issues, like hardly any problems at all, because the vacuum isn't
+
+[20:00] getting, like, 1st of all, the bag is there. The vacuum isn't sucking directly out of the bag, it's sucking, you know, through a hole, which then is dispersed over the entire chamber. So you get very little actual movement of particles out of the
+
+[20:12] bag and it hasn't been, in my experience, a problem. Here's where the problem happens when you take a very fine powder and you vacuum it on a high vacuum. When you let the air back in, the stuff gets squashed really flat. And so you can have caking and pelleting problems with the
+
+[20:30] powder, like it forms clumps when you uncut the bag to use it later. And that's been my main problem with things like transgutaminates or with the vinegar powder is that I get clumping after I vacuumed. Now, I'm trying to think of a decent way to, because what happens when you do a gas flush is the gas comes in via, like, depending on your unit, like one,
+
+[20:53] two, or 3 little tubes that are in the bag, and they come in with enough force to really kind of,
+
+[20:59] like, I've had bags that weren't like, you know, held on properly, rocket across the machine, uh,
+
+[21:05] and, you know, spray their contents everywhere. So you're going to want to, and I don't know whether you're going to be able to get around this problem. What I would do is because you needed to go in the bag and not just fill the entire chamber, right? You need the gas to go directly in the bag. You could try to put little diffusers over the front of the gas jets, turn the flow way
+
+[21:26] down and the pressure way down so that you don't get a lot of spray, but you might have a problem doing
+
+[21:31] doing a gas flush. That said, you're only going to need a tiny bit of gas in there to prevent it from compacting and therefore causing clumps. So you might not need that much gas, but you're definitely going to need to put kind of diffuser plates on it or it's going to kind of fire across and going to cause problems. But you're not going to have a problem if you don't use any gas flush on it. He writes, on a related note, do you have any experience? Oh my iPad just turned off. On a related note, do you have any experience with oxygen absorbers, they're sold in little packets like
+
+[22:01] desicants. Do they actually work, and are they food safe? All right, a couple. I don't have, if he's talking about oxygen scavengers, like physically prevent oxidation by being in the package and just having a stronger affinity for the oxygen than your food does.
+
+[22:15] And they, I don't know whether the particular ones you're looking at are food safe. I've never used them, but they clearly definitely make food safe oxygen, you know, scavenging package. And I will tell you a story that I probably shouldn't tell you because it was told to me by someone who must have had too much to
+
+[22:31] drink, who works for an oxygen scavenging package company, a couple of years ago, when I say a couple, like 8 years ago. They once were doing an oxygen scavenging package, right? A little paper insert that sucked up oxygen for a major candy manufacturer that worked with peanut
+
+[22:49] butter. Let's say Reese's peanut butter cups. Let's just say they were that. I'm not saying they were, but let's just say it was that. And what happened was, is they would put these things in to prevent the peanut butter from going
+
+[23:01] rancid, and nobody liked the taste of these Reese's peanut butter
+
+[23:07] cups because, you know, they just didn't taste right. You know, they tasted not like Reese's peanut butter cups. And what it turns out is, is that the characteristic taste of a Reese's peanut butter cup is due to a certain amount of rancidity in the peanut butter.
+
+[23:24] And so, you know, one person's rancid is another person's
+
+[23:28] recess. Now, I love Reese's peanut butter cups, and I'm sure a lot of you out there do as well. You wouldn't necessarily love it if I told you that what you were liking is rancid peanut butter because rancid has a negative
+
+[23:41] connotation. However, um, you know, if you didn't know it was
+
+[23:46] rancid, and you just said there was, there was like some selective oxidation and aging of the peanut butter to make delicious Reese's peanut butter cups.
+
+[23:53] Maybe you'd like it better, but the term rancid is so loaded that has a problem. So anyway, long story short, they didn't use the oxygen scavenging packaging in the
+
+[24:02] Reese's Peanut Butter cups anymore because people didn't like it. So yes, they are food safe. No, I don't have any experience with them. Um, okay. Have a question in from Anonymous. Hello Anonymous about sealing vegetables. I recently got an immersion circulator and I'm cooking a lot of vegetables and they're floating to the top. Is there any way to safely keep vegetables under the water so I can get the most out of my machine? I'm assuming uh, they mean the vacuum machine because when you're cooking, uh, I don't
+
+[24:28] know, here's the problem. When you take a vegetable and you put it in a vacuum bag or even if you try to do it in a ziploc or whatever, vegetables have a lot of air on the inside of them naturally, right?
+
+[24:39] So things like carrots, they float in water because there's air. What happens when you seal them in a bag and then cook them and heat them. The air that's in them expands and escapes and inflates the
+
+[24:49] bag. And then the bag flows to the top and does 2 things. One, it makes it very difficult to have it cooked evenly because the top of the bag's out of the water and it doesn't get hot. And they also take up a lot of space and they're ungainly on, you know, their
+
+[25:02] pain in the butt. So there's a couple things you can do. If you have a vacuum machine, I recommend sucking a hard, hardcore vacuum on those things. Super hardcore vacuum. If you suck a really hardcore vacuum on it, you might be able to get in, and when I say that means whatever the full vacuum is plus an extra 30 seconds, you'll be able to get enough of the air out to get them to sink down to the bottom and stay somewhat near the bottom.
+
+[25:26] They're still going to inflate a little bit when they get really hot. Another technique you can use. And by the way, when you suck that kind of a hardcore vacuum on it, also any flavor you put into the bag, whether it be oil or with carrots, something like orange juice,
+
+[25:37] will get injected further into the carrot and you'll get more of that flavor transfer. Another thing you can do, and this is from Herve Maliver, our friend at the French Culinary Institute, is you can take some stainless steel knives and throw them in, you know, butter
+
+[25:49] knives, and throw them because they're not sharp, or, you know, and they're heavier than spoons. And throw them into the bag and seal them with the bag, and that'll drop your thing to the bottom like a stone, even though it's filling with air. If you have enough knives, and he does that all the time. If you don't want it in with your vegetables, you can even seal the knives in like a bottom section of your bag and then seal the vegetables on top of
+
+[26:10] it so the knives aren't directly touching. And he does this also when he's wrapping things like, like, when we do, like, roulades of
+
+[26:18] meat and we hand roll them in plastic wrap and drop them, those roles sometimes have a tendency to float. So what he'll do is he'll take the role, and he'll roll it in plastic wrap, and then he'll take like five, 6 butter knives, and depending on the size of the item, and then he'll put those, and then he'll roll another layer of plastic wrap around
+
+[26:34] that and around the knives, and bang, those things drop right to the bottom. So it's a really good solution. When you're, um, but I mean, that's basically what I recommend, you got to weight the thing down, even with a very high seal on something, uh, you're still going to get some air coming out of the bag at high
+
+[26:51] temperatures, and and you have to cook vegetables at high temperatures, 85 Celsius and above.
+
+[26:56] So it really, it's a tough problem, but not insurmountable. So you know, also you have to cook vegetables. If you don't add a lot of liquid to the bag, which you're probably not, because otherwise, why are you cooking them in a vacuum bag anyway? You know, you're probably trying to concentrate the flavor of the vegetable and or add another
+
+[27:11] one, you have to cook it for a lot longer because it takes longer for the vegetable to break down, even at high
+
+[27:19] temperature, in the absence of excess water. Uh, okay, so, uh, Victoria Sen writes in about dehydrated fruit sheets. Hi, Nastash and Dave. I'm planning on making sheets of dehydrated fruits, spices, and seeds. I'd like it not to be fruit leather, but to be crispy. I think the recipe I have is going to change the colors. I want to keep the color of the mixes, but also have it dehydrated, so it's flexible when it's baked, but then shaped and gets hard, similar to a fortune cookie. The base that she's using is similar to a tuile base. But the problem is the color changes to a dark brown. Is there a recipe or ingredient I can use to keep the color of these mixes after they're dehydrated or
+
+[27:54] baked, yet still maintain a crispy textured end product thanks Victoria? Okay. Here's the main problem. Fruit leathers are done at a low temperature, and they always have a lot of sugar in them that haven't had all the water driven off because they're done at low temperature.
+
+[28:11] That is why they are always flexible. Okay? The higher temperature products you're doing, their tuile batters, right, are based on driving off the liquid and almost, you know, turning the sugar into, you know, almost like caramelizing the sugar, which is why they're brown,
+
+[28:27] right? along with, you know, if there's any, you know, other things that turn brown in it, like milk solids and whatever. And when they are heated, you're basically melting it, and then you can form it, and then you let it cool, and it gets hard again, right? That's how fortune cookies work. But that's why they turn brown. So, uh, one thing I would do, uh, to change it and still have it be crispy is switch from sugar to isomalt.
+
+[28:48] If you use isomalt, isomalt browns a lot less than sugar when it gets cooked up to those higher temperatures. I'd also say you could switch to a non-tuile, like almost like
+
+[29:00] some of these dehydrated multodextrin thing. The problem is they might not be as flexible when they when they dry down. Um, what I would like you to do is send me the actual recipe you're using, because I looked up some, uh, there are some crunchy fruit, um, fruit sheet recipes out
+
+[29:19] there, uh, based on, you know, fruit, isomalt, and maltodextrine. But I don't know exactly the recipe you're using. So I don't I can't truly troubleshoot it. But my guess is, is that your flexible recipes that don't get too hard aren't cooked to a high enough temperature and your other
+
+[29:34] ones, you're getting browning of the sugar from cooking at a high temperature and you might be able to solve it by moving to an isomalt, although it will make it less sweet.
+
+[29:41] Anyway, so hopefully that helps. and give us a call, give us an email with the recipe you're using and maybe we can help you even more. In a similar vein. Mike writes in and says, hello, has cooking issues been taken off the air? No, I have not been taking off the air. He misses it. We appreciate that. We're back. Don't worry. My question is, how can I help keeping my homemade marshmallows from sticking together after I've cut them and cover them with cornstarch and powdered
+
+[30:03] sugar. He uses a one-to-one ratio of cornstarch and powdered sugar to cover the marshmallows after their set. He has been using a recipe that he found online, and I wish I had it with me. Some reason when I pasted it in the URL didn't show up or I'd tell you whose recipe he used. I've increased the size of the recipe 30% to fill a half sheet pen, and I always use a scale to measure, thereby saying he doesn't think it's a problem with the recipe.
+
+[30:26] Do we have any help? Okay, the recipe that he's following online, which I apologize, I don't have the site for because it didn't show up on my iPad.
+
+[30:35] uses as, you know, most of these do. And it's an egg white and gelatin mixture with sugar that you cook up, you know, to
+
+[30:43] candy stage and then you beat it in the gelatin, the egg white, the sugar. It sets up as a foam and then it's cut and or dolloped or whatever and then put into a cornstarch and sugar mixture. Now, if your if your marshmallows are too wet, right? And you need more structure. You can up the gelatin one, you can, or you can increase the cooking temperature of the sugar to a certain point, right?
+
+[31:06] But if you like the texture that you're getting and all you want to do is make it less sticky, right? Then what you need to do is work on the coding problem. Now, all marshmallows are too syrupy on the inside, really, you know, too sticky on the inside, you know, to have them not
+
+[31:22] stick. If you're actually going to touch the inside of a marshmallow. Otherwise, it would be the same as the marshmallows that are in, you know, cereal
+
+[31:28] boxes, which are 100% desiccated, right? Although I like those. Do you like those nastasia? Yeah, yeah, me too. I mean, they're not really marshmallows. And by the way, I mean, they kind of are. I mean, they're marshmallow like things, but they're kind of more like little meringue with marshmallow tasting, but
+
+[31:43] I got addicted to those suckers when I was a kid. And I once called one of those serial companies to see whether I could buy just the marshmallows for a project I was working on. I was trying to make the world's 1st meat-based breakfast cereal with pork rinds. It was called pickles and beanies. It was sweetened pork rinds with little pork rind pieces with bean shaped marshmallows. And this was, you know, back, you know, I don't know, high school or college or something like that, you know,
+
+[32:06] 90s, early 90s. And, uh, and they would not ship me, uh, or let me buy any marshmallows from. This was before I had enough technical knowledge to do it on my own. isn't that mean? It's really mean. So me. weird. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not going into the cereal business, they could have at least just sold. I was like, listen, I'll choose whatever the closest marshmallow you have in
+
+[32:27] your like line of like cereal marshmallows to a kidney being shaped. And, you know, this is before I even knew how to make my own pork rinds. I mean, I was literally like either in college or like right around. You know what I mean? It's like, they could have helped me out a little bit. I'm sorry. I used to save all the marshmallows to last in the milk. I could enjoy them. But did you ever like open the box and then break it down into marshmallows and not marshmallows? No, no, no, no, no. Because it was a family. was for the family, the whole cereal. Oh, well, you know what though? How many people in the family there? Five? Five? Five? They couldn't have bought you your own box of cereal? I mean look. cereal was expensive. Seria was like 599 a pack. Okay, okay, look, here's my point. My point is this. You have people in the family. They're going to eat the cereal anyway, right? Right? So if you're going to eat the cereal anyway, there's going to be another box of cereal in a week anyway, right? Right? So if the total quantity of cereal eaten is the same over a 6 month period, what does it matter whether each person has their own box or not? It's not like the stuff goes bad in a short amount of time, it's not like you're going to be able to not finish that box of
+
+[33:32] blueberry within like, you know, the 6 months that it stays good. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, in your next life, you can bring up that argument. See, that's what I'm good for, Nastasia. I'm good for that kind of logical-based argument. That's what I'm good at. Okay. So back to the marshmallow problem. Marshmallows are sticky on the inside. So what they are is a problem in control dehydration. You want to just have the outside be dry so they don't stick together. The problem with using a one-to-one powdered sugar and cornstarch mixture, and I read the person's recipe online, and the reason they use
+
+[34:05] a mixture is, they thought the cornstarch by itself was too chalky on the outside, especially because it's there in a large quantity, right?
+
+[34:12] But the problem with powdered sugar. Is it powdered sugar is gonna suck up moisture from the atmosphere and from the
+
+[34:18] marshmallow and it's gonna be get tacky on the outside? There's no way around it. Like short term, it's going to work, but long term, it's going to cause problems with things getting sticky. That is my feeling. Now, you could try it with a straight up cornstarch, but then you might think it's too chalky. I did some research on industrial marshmallow production, Mike, and I have the answer for you. Here's what you're going to do the next time. I have not tested this, but I am so confident that I'm going to tell you on the air that this is going to work because I felt so confident that
+
+[34:46] I can't, in fact, I might make it sometime soon. Here's what you do. You take the marshmallows, right? And make sure you follow all the recipe. Like another way marshmallows can go bad is if you don't beat them till they're cool, all that, you know, all that nonsense, right? Whatever. whatever the recipe says, just do it. if the recipe works, the recipe probably works. Now, instead of putting it into a mixture of cornstarch and sugar, right? Like a day before you do it or like a couple hours, you know, day before you do it, bake out some cornstarch in the oven to make sure it's really dry, seal it in court
+
+[35:16] containers and let it cool down, right? Now you have dry cornstarch. Take your marshmallows, right? And then dust them into pure, into pure powdered sugar. Right? Now shake off the extra powdered sugar dust. Now, throw them into cornstarch, and then let them sit there with the cornstarch on them, right, for like 4 or 5 hours up to a day, depending on how much you want to dehydrate the outside layer of the marshmallow.
+
+[35:42] Now, what you're doing is, is you're letting the sugar still be the taste thing on the outside, but you're using the cornstarch as a desiccant to desiccate the outside of the marshmallow a little bit so they won't be tacky, but you're not going to pick up as much cornstarch into the marshmallow itself proper because it already has that protective layer of
+
+[35:59] powder sugar, huh? Huh? Huh? What do you think? It's good Apparently, that's how the big folks do it. You know, what they do is they they basically do it all under pressure and inject the marshmallow from a from a tube, it expands automatically is cut, dropped into powdered sugar, and then put into a cornstarch mixture to dehydrate
+
+[36:21] as as it comes out. So I'm thinking that that mic is the way to get your marshmallow problem solved. Okay. Paul. Hey, should we do one more commercial break? Yeah, we can do a break. All right, one more commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-4972, 128. That's 718-1972128 cooking issues.
+
+[36:44] Hush, not child. And don't cry Your folks might understand you. Just move on up. Toward your destination. Though you may find from time to time, communication.
+
+[37:25] And take the trip. But there may be, let it roll ahead, and you cannot slip. The following is public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to Hot Grease every Monday at 330 PM. Hakri strives to bring sustainability, localized sourcing, and other forward thinking schools of culinary thought to the minds and kitchens of everyday folk.
+
+[37:57] Each week, Nicole Taylor's conversations cover the entire spectrum for enthusiasts, some internationally renowned culinary masters, some moms
+
+[38:05] on a budget looking to impress their tiniest critics. Again, that's every Monday at 330 PM, Hot Grease on the Heritage Radio Network. Hey, welcome back. Hey, Jack, that was move on up. Curtis Mayfield, right? Yeah, move on up. Curtis Mayfield. Good tune. I like the mixture of the Curtis Mayfield with the hot grease. The song seems to work with the hot grease, right? Yes. Yeah. I'll tell you something else. I don't care whether you're a mom on a budget or not. Like, like, like pleasing your kids. They are the pickiest little pickiest little critics, aren't they? Pains, that's a tough problem. Anyway, back to the questions. Nastasia, you still with us? Yeah. Awesome. We got a question from Paul K. earlier today, this last question in that we got. and it's not really a question so much as a comment. It's kind of funny. Hi, Nastasia. I thought I'd bring this article about human derived gelatin to Dave's attention, perhaps for the radio show. I'd like to hear his thoughts. And basically what it is. It's a new article called New Strategy, for expression of recombinant, hydroxylated, human derived gelatin. Um, just came out. So basically it's, what they do is they take, uh, the, our genes, human genes for producing
+
+[39:19] uh, gelatin, you know, collagen, I guess, are gelatin, and they uh, inject it into a yeast. You know, they put it into a yeast. And then they grow the yeast, and the yeast then just makes a hyper abundance of, you know, human style gelatin, but, you know, obviously it hasn't come out of a
+
+[39:36] human. No humans were killed for the gelatin. Uh, you know, anyway. So it's like that's that's what they're doing. I'd like to hear his thoughts. My 1st thought is, if we're common in technology allows greater quality control, why not use animal gene derived or common gelatin to avoid the controversy and creepiness? I think the allergy thing is a bit of a red herring. So the reason, the point here is that the reason they're using human derived gelatin for this is they're trying to think of, they're now looking at food applications for it, but originally this is for things like gel caps for
+
+[40:04] medicine, and the idea being that there is less of a possibility of a
+
+[40:11] human immune response to gelatin that's derived from human tissue than from animal
+
+[40:20] tissue. I think it's probably a red herring. I think that if it's actually a pure gelatin protein, you know, pure gelatin, that's not going to have a lot of other extraneous stuff on
+
+[40:30] it, that, I mean, maybe there's a difference, but maybe there's not. I haven't read any studies on how many people are allergic to
+
+[40:36] gelatin. Maybe there's a lot, but I don't know. I haven't really, I didn't really have the chance to look into it. But the idea that we can have, because gelatin is freaking fantastic, right? And there's a whole, there's a whole group of people, vegetarians, you know, who won't eat gelatin. So, you know, whether, like, the idea of a recombinant gelatin, whether it be, you know, bovine derived or human derived,
+
+[41:02] you know, the strain of it, I think would be awesome because there's certain things that gelatin does better than anything else. Marshmallows, for instance. Now, you can use Carraginen. mixture of Kerogenen and, you know, locust bean and or other things, gum, to produce a marshmallow. But gelatin is really, really good. Also for Jell-O. Gelatin is really, really good. Now, can you approximate Jell-O using things like carrogen? Yeah, but, you know, is gel- gelatin is still kind of the reigning monarch of taste in, you know, hydrocoloids. Like we, maybe it's because it's traditional and has been for so long that we just grew up loving it, but
+
+[41:43] it's, it's good stuff. So if they can make one that was price competitive, and also have very consistent quality. Because another problem with regular gelatin is it's of differing qualities depending on the source where it was derived from how basically hydrolyzed, how broken down the proteins are. And that's why you have different bloom strengths of gelatin because they're a naturally derived
+
+[42:05] product and gelatin from a fish doesn't work the same as gelatin from a, you know, a pigskin or, you know, animal, you know, cow bones or whatever.
+
+[42:15] So they're all different. And the processing makes them all different. And so this is, you know, gives the possibility of having a very consistent gelatin product where no animals are harmed. I think it'd be interesting. The real question is, would a vegan use it? What do you think, Nastasia? vegan use it? I mean, like, question is, like, what is, like, why, like, in other words, like, what would be the, if you were a vegan would you use it? I mean, I would think you could, but I don't I don't know, right? do you think? I don't know. I really don't know. I don't I can't think like a vegan, you know? I think that's that's the issue. Yeah. Anyway, I'd like to hear from some vegans and see whether or not they would be willing to use,
+
+[42:53] uh, you know, so, because you wouldn't have to harm the animal to get the DNA for it, right? You could just take a blood sample from a human or from whatever, get the gene,
+
+[43:03] you know, and do it. I mean, I think that, um, be an interesting problem. don't know. But definitely, I think, has a lot more commercial application than the poop derived meat
+
+[43:16] analog. Oh, I knew you were gonna go there. Well, didn't we bring this up on the radio a couple weeks ago? Somebody asked about it. Didn't we talk about it? You didn't talk about it. I'm pretty sure you didn't talk about it, at least, and I've done every show with you. We didn't talk about that. Well, it was a big thing on the internet, so I'm sure a lot of you guys have heard about this. crew in Japan was recycling sewage into meat
+
+[43:39] analogs and people were making much hay out of it on the internet, but I don't really know enough to comment other than it's fun to say poop meat, right?
+
+[43:47] I mean, uh, okay. So as some of you might know, um, I do, uh, you know, a little thing for eater, like, you know, once every week or once every 2 weeks or
+
+[43:59] something. And recently they've had some, they've started getting chefs to ask me some
+
+[44:04] questions. Nastasia, I don't know at this point where they're going to let me answer the rest of Michael Asconis's the... Yes, they want to know they wanted to know today when you're going to answer the rest, but that's for after the show.
+
+[44:14] But the question is, should I just answer one now online? And then, and then, because there's really only one that I really want to answer more than the ones I've already answered. I can just answer that one now and then talk to Michael about it and then do a new chef for them. What do you think? I think they're kind of waiting for the answers to be answered. online. All right, so I'm going to answer Michael Escanis's questions on malt, which I think are very, very interesting. You know, Malt, as you may know, assuming most of our listeners know, is what you make,
+
+[44:46] you know, beer out of. So you take barley. I'll talk about it a little bit now and then I'll write about it. You take barley and you grow it, you germinate it, right? And then you kill the, you kill the growing germ, kill the growing sprout on the inside before it pops out of the actual barley. And what you're doing there is activating all of the enzymes. The alpha and beta amylases, being the primary ones, and those enzymes, then when you kill it, you got to make sure that you kill it in such a way that you leave the enzymes in there. And then what you do is you grind it up and you steep it, you know, at different temperatures and the temperature of the mash that you
+
+[45:22] do, the way you steep it is what makes different kind of beer is different, along with how the malt is made and how it's kiln and how, you know, what flavors are derived there.
+
+[45:30] But anyway, it's the active enzymes in it that allow you to convert the starch from
+
+[45:35] barley or if you're, you know, adding other things to it, like rice or whatever, that allow you to convert that starch to alcohol, right?
+
+[45:43] Sorry, to sugar, which then you use yeast, yeast to convert to alcohol. So the primary function of malt is the function of it is to produce these enzymes that can break starch into sugar. Now, how the malt is treated, it makes it
+
+[46:01] widely, you know, different in how much enzyme there is, and also in the flavor of the malt itself. It's a really tricky process. And most beer people, many beer people. I used to do all grain, meaning I don't, I used all my own grains and everything, but very few people make their own malt because
+
+[46:18] it's, I don't know why. few people do it. So mald is a very interesting subject. Now, when most people are baking with malt, they're either using like diastatic malt, which they're adding to bakery products, and what that is is malt that still has the active stuff in it. But it still has the active enzymes in it. And they do that to break some extra starch into sugars for yeast as a yeast food or
+
+[46:40] a bacteria food in a starter. But when I say malt to someone as an ingredient, what I'm thinking of is dry malt
+
+[46:48] extract. And what that is, is you take the malt and you then convert all the starch to sugar using it with all the great flavors of malt. Like think Malta, the beverage Malta, malt beverage, like that multi-flavor, and then they, before they let it ferment, they dry it out into a powder. And so if you're doing what's called extract brewing, you take dry malt extract or still a liquid version of that
+
+[47:11] extract, and they have amazing taste, malt tastes amazing. Uh, and that powder is an incredible, incredible ingredient, uh, which, you know, you can use not just to make beer, but you can use it as a sweetening multi-agent and
+
+[47:25] thing that's great in mashed potatoes. Like I used to make malt mashed potatoes all the time, not with like the malted milk ball stuff, but with dry malt extract direct from a brewing shop. And you can get these if you have a home brew shop anywhere. Our Whole Foods here in New York City and Manhattan and lower Manhattan, Bowery has dry malt extract, but it's a fantastic ingredient. So I'll write a little more and probably a little less stream of consciously consciousness about Malt when I answer Michael Scott's other questions. We will be back next week. We hope not to have another 3 week period where I'm flying around like a lunatic from place to place and we apologize for any convenience we may have caused. Cooking issues. Fishes, fish. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[48:36] Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[48:42] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Got me on this corner. Saturday, Saturday,
+
+[48:52] Saturday, Saturday. Saturday, July 23rd, Butchwick Block Party Block Party. It's a party in the street. Repeat by Roberta, Death Killer Death Wrestling, featuring the legendary Mad Dog Toast, though. Boota Boot by Ryan Slack. What a world, close by Hymerodactyl. Mary Meyers. or Mogart. Back killer, asphalt resistant jeans. All kinds of food for your base, sweet soda by PNA, Roberta's bake sale. Heritage food. Argentini Eating Contact by the Argentini Brothers. Live music by Alex Truchen, Florida, hyper twin. Gangzai. The Netherlands. Team Robespierre. Wild Jack, MC Todd, Bo Breezy. Night Show. Sponsored by Martin Greenfield
+
+[49:43] Clother, Green Fitness Studio, Heritage Radio Network. Free Williamsburg, 6 point beer. Momo, Sushi Shack, Beer Box, USA, Planet of the
+
+[49:54] Bay, Spushwood Block Party. It's a party in the street. All day long. Figure on the pulp and city winery, our proud present, the summer barbecue blowout festival. August 6th from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at city winery, located at 155 Barrack Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire Mayonnaise, Van Dag, Momo Fuco Mopar, Imperial No. 9,
+
+[50:19] Mile Land, Mexico, Kraft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, the Meatball Shop, and Dos Toros. Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, Pewter Magic, New Villager, Punches, Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ. VIP and general admission tickets are available at citywinery.com. Figure on the pole for city one. We would like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Trudes USA. New York magazine, Break of Vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City,
+
+[50:49] Subzero and Wolf. Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.fotpnyc.com.
+
+[51:05] This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. AMP goes local. The great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company, commonly known as the AMP, that grocery chain you've seen all your life, has glommed onto the concept of local and
+
+[51:21] sustainable and has just introduced a new consortium of producers known as the mid-Atlantic country farms, from which they will source beef and poultry. The animals are antibiotic and hormone free raised on vegetarian feed. There is no mention of certified humane or animal welfare approved status, however. Maybe they haven't gotten that far in the marketing department. But what makes this of interest is that A and P supplies all AMP supermarkets, pathmark, food emporium, walled bounds, and
+
+[51:47] super fresh. These are not particularly high-end supermarkets. So this is good news for the average consumer. If you want to read more about this, you can go to the AMP website, which is
+
+[51:55] www.apt.com slash press room. This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] On the Heritage Radio Network in a few moments, stick with us.
+
+[0:10] Hey, we're cloud control and you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[0:21] You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes store. The following program has been brought to you by Barterhouse wines. For more information, visit www.thebarterhouse.com.
+
+[1:00] Hello. Hello, huh? I can't hear myself. Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. They hosted cooking issues coming to you every Tuesday live from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. Here in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, bringing the hammer to all of you that step out of line, although they never do, do they? No they never do. It's crazy. All right, Colin, all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, today's show brought to you by the Burger House. some of our favorite people in wine distribution Something I'm sure all of our listeners know, but probably don't, is that I'm extremely lazy, so I find it difficult to memorize the names of any kind of wines that I
+
+[1:38] like. Are you going to a store and you find a wine and you don't, you know, you don't really know what to get? All you need to do, seriously, is memorize the name of like 5 or 10 distributors that you
+
+[1:47] like, that you know bring in interesting products, and then you can look on the back of the bottles, find a distributor you enjoy, and odds
+
+[1:55] are, you might have a winner. Anyway, a little tip from me to you on how to buy wine when you don't know what you're doing. All right, our 1st question comes in from Paul Peterson, who is a researcher at the Humane Society of the United
+
+[2:06] States. I Googled him. And he had a comment on last week's gelatin issue where we were talking last week about the possibility of using recombinant DNA technology to produce gelatin without having to kill a bunch of animals.
+
+[2:18] And the reason to do this is because gelatin is awesome. And it's also used in things like gel capsules. It has very a lot of very good properties. Gelatin is great. Anyway, he has a comment on it. He says, whether or not a vegan would use, the question is, would a vegan use this? And he says the answer he thinks is it depends on the individual. There's a similar, though, much more vexing project, to harvest meat cells from an animal and grow them in a bioreactor, thus to create meat without harming the animal, with other potential side benefits, like it might cause less pollution, the conventional farming,
+
+[2:52] et cetera. Uh, and uh, he points me to a, I forget the name of it. It's called like meat harvest.org or something like that, harvesting meat. whatever. Anyway, because for some reason, hey, iPad people, figure out a reason why
+
+[3:06] the URLs get stripped out of my stuff when I put it on my iPad. anyway. There are some vegans who are fine with and prefer this technology, this artificial,
+
+[3:14] well, this cultured meat technology. Well, others would abhor such a thing. Basically, Paul thinks it comes down to whether why one is truly vegan. Some simply want to create the least suffering, in which case they probably use the cultured meat, and some just detest animal
+
+[3:27] products a priori, and they would object to technology. I think I basically agree. I would object to the technology because straight up, I doubt that it would be delicious. I mean, unless you could literally culture the muscle, uh, exactly as it appears in my favorite piece of beef, you know what I
+
+[3:47] mean? I doubt that I would like meat that's made in a
+
+[3:52] bioreactor, the same way that I like meat that's made on an animal. Do you know what I mean? It's like, we think about it this way. Um, how much of a different is there between the most delicious piece of beef that you've ever
+
+[4:06] had, right? And crap hole, you know, 3rd rate beef that you get in
+
+[4:13] a in, you know, in like a low rent supermarket. It's a big difference, right? Mistachia, what do you think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, my point is, is that, you know, I'm always shooting for ultimate delicious on a
+
+[4:26] product. And so, uh, and I think this is my problem with most meat substitutes in general is that what they're substituting for is kind of the chewy texture of meat,
+
+[4:38] right? And when I say that, I mean, overcooked meat, they're usually shooting at overcooked meat, right? kind of like, you know, tough, you know, a little bit chewy. And then they try to substitute in meat-esque flavors. And by that, I mean, usually protein breakdown products. So you're putting in, like, nutritional yeast, you're putting in broken down soy compounds, anything like compounds, like soy sauce, things like that, anything that are
+
+[5:02] gonna contain, you know, free amino acids that are gonna give some of that umami nature, and then also they typically substitute in some sort of browning or some sort of smoking to mimic those kind of flavors that we get out of
+
+[5:13] meats. But really, these are kind of only the externalities of meat. You know what I mean? Meat is so many other things. It's the different muscles. It's the way the grains align, different muscles. It's the way the fat is placed with them. It's the particular characteristics of the fat, based on what the animal was eating. It's many, many things. I mean, the flavor of meat isn't some sort of monotonic thing that can be
+
+[5:37] recreated in a bioreactor. Now, I mean, that said, I mean, if I'm going to assume that technology could some point get so sophisticated, that it could literally grow, you know, a
+
+[5:50] ribeye. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. I see perhaps some sort of actual meat, meat analog that functions better than many meat replacers on the market today. But I just don't see, you know, my most delicious, um, you know, aged, uh, ribeye steak, uh, that, you know, that I cook sous vide and sear over like a, you know, fiercely hot charcoal fire, and then, uh, and then drizzle it
+
+[6:18] with, uh, uh, you know, my favorite uh, Tuscan or Sicilian olive oil and sprinkle it with salt. I just don't see that coming out of a bioreactor anytime soon. What about you, Nastasia? I agree. Yeah. Yeah, talking to the microphone, you're face towards the window. I agree. Yeah there you go. She's only been doing the radio show for a year and a half, folks. Don't mind her that she can't face into a microphone when she's talking. Anyway, uh, but then Paul Paul has a question he says. He was curious whether I, what experience I have with cooking Satan, which is basically Satan's wheat, wheat gluten, that is then formed into a dough, and is typically cooked in a liquid where it absorbs the flavor from the liquid, and then is sliced, and then
+
+[6:56] you are sauteed, fried, stewed, whatnot, as a meat substitute. And it's a nutritional meat substitute in, uh, in, you know, parts of Asia hasn't, uh, really caught on here to the extent that, uh, I think it should. Many people use it instead, like they say, well, Satan's a much better meat replacer than tofu. I say you're both wrong. Tofu is tofu and it's delicious and should be used like tofu is, and you shouldn't buy crappy supermarket tofu that's had all of its flavor leached
+
+[7:22] out and it's been sitting there for a 1000000000 years in a whole crap load of water. I think that stuff's, you know, vile and useless, except as a flavor carrier. And Satan, I think, also needs to be explored for its own sort of properties instead of just being a straight up meat substitute. Anyway, Paul says, do I have any preferred cooking method, boiling versus braising? I would add pressure cooking is a good cooking technique for it. Unfortunately, I have not, uh, and he also wants to know whether I've experimented with it cooking is sous vide, i.e. in a vacuum bag. I unfortunately haven't experimented with Satan in many, many years. I've only played with making it a couple of times, uh, and it was, you know, years before I really got into cooking
+
+[8:01] sous vide. It's an interesting idea. I don't know that you get a benefit from cooking SUV, though, because you're cooking typically at a high temperature anyway. I don't know that you get a benefit from cooking the wheat gluten at a lower temperature below boiling point or substantially below boiling point. I think you might get some textural benefits from, like I say, cooking at a pressure cooker because then you can get some expansion when you release the pressure. Um, You might be able to get some infusion by going sous vide, but you can fuse anyway with the stock. The stock permeates the satan as it's cooking. One advantage to cooking sous vide that I could think of off the top of my head, is if you had a very expensive ingredient that you wanted to infuse into
+
+[8:38] the satan and cook it that way. You could cook it in a very, very small amount of liquid. So if you had some expensive flavor, something you didn't have very much of, You could probably bag the satan in the thing, and then cook it that way. But I would not use a high vacuum because then you're going to be compressing it and altering and or destroying the texture of the safe, and if you use a very high vacuum, it's going to be dense and rubbery. So I would almost do it in a Ziploc bag rather than sous vide. I probably would never do it, sous vide. Uh, and are there any other vegetarian proteins that benefit from sous vide? Again, if you, you know, you can compress things, you know, get rid of the air cells in in things with sous vide, which might be, you know, to firm up tofu or whatnot, but that's really more of a water expelling issue.
+
+[9:18] So I can't think off my head of any vegetarian proteins that would benefit from
+
+[9:22] sous vide other than possible textural changes and infusion
+
+[9:26] techniques because the low temperature aspect of sous vide is not really necessary for vegetarian proteins. Anyone who thinks I'm a jerk and wants to call me out on that, please do because I'd like to know some good applications. What do you think of stations? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Into the microphone at the time. Nice. Nice. Okay, Ross McGuire from Dublin, Ireland writes in again about green vegetables. Ross says, I recently came across a Spanish vegetable stew type dish, Menestra made from fresh vegetables, artichoke, broad beans, runner beans, and white asparagus thickened with flour, is a fantastic shade of green. From what I managed, the from what I managed to glean, the artichoke when cooked in water changes to a strong veridian green veridian. Nice call for reading. Only an Irish dude could come out with like the awesome shade of green, right? Veridian green color. along with the water, which is interesting, which is what gives the soup its strong pigmentation. Do you know what the cause of this color change is and how one might go about achieving it? Also, are there any other examples of that kind of natural color change, which could be used a good effect in the kitchen? Cheers. Okay, uh, cheers, cheers, Ross. Anyway, well, that's interesting. As far as, you know, I'm used to Menestra is like soup in Italian, where it's the same word for soup as for as
+
+[10:35] zippa, so you could use zippa, you can use Menestra. I guess as opposed to like brodo, which is more of a broth, right? Nostasia? Yeah. Okay. So, uh, I don't know of any uh, Spanish recipe that goes by the name, uh, minestra. But this coming from an idiot who hasn't researched it. But so I can't say it, but also, you know, you can make them, let's just say
+
+[10:57] Minestra is a soup, you can make it from any sort of mix of anything you want. So we're dealing here with is a soup or stew of artichoke, broad bean, runner bean, a white asparagus that's then thinking with flour. And it comes out green. Now, typically when you cook a green, here's what happens with green things in general when you cook them, right? First of all, the interesting thing you say is that the water turns really green. Chlorophyll is not water soluble. So typically, right, what's happening is, is, uh, the majority of chlorophyll is not going to leach out into the water. chlorophyll is what makes these things green, okay? So what happens is, the reason why chlorophyll is not soluble in water is that it's got this long kind of hydrocarbon chain that comes
+
+[11:38] out. that's hydrophobic, it wants to be soluble in oil, which is why things
+
+[11:43] like, you know, basil oil and things like that are such nice bright green because we can extract a lot of the chlorophyll into the oil because it's water soluble. uh, oil, soluble rudder. So here's what happens when you cook. You stick stuff in boiling water. If there's any acid, uh, and I guess also McGee says alkali can make it happen. You can break off that hydrocarbon chain, and now the residual part, which is still green, is leached into the water.
+
+[12:07] Okay? Now, in the center of the main part of chlorophyll, the really the business center is a magnesium ion. And in water with the action of heat, especially if there's acid, right? That magnesium ion gets kicked out and replaced with hydrogen, and what you get is that kind of dark, greeny, almost
+
+[12:27] olive, drab your bluish, bluish color of the chlorophyll after that's been happening. So that's the major color change that happens in most, in most vegetables as they cook, or as I should say, as they overcook, which is why we say you can add a little bit of baking soda to
+
+[12:41] something and your vegetables will turn mushy, but they'll go bright green, right? Bright green, uh, because you're basically what happens is, is when you put the vegetable in, all of a sudden, you know, uh,
+
+[12:52] the, the light couldn't come out of the vegetable very well because there's air sacs, the chlorophyll might be
+
+[12:57] containing stuff. So there's basically the color is muted. You throw it into water and boom, you know what I mean? It, um, it, it, the cells are broken. The water penetrates, and now all of a sudden, the green really pops. It really pops out. So, I don't know whether or not the color you're describing is some mixture of
+
+[13:15] cooked and, I mean, otherwise, you know, chlorophyllis has magnesium taken out and some that hasn't, some that's become water soluble due to the action of
+
+[13:23] cooking. I just can't tell. You'd have to send me a picture of your soup so I can see what's going on. Another thing you can do, uh, it could be toxic, so please don't poison your guess, uh, other than baking soda, which actually,
+
+[13:35] nastasia, baking soda would work really well in a soup, because what you could do is you could add baking soda, cook your soup, uh, down till it's to death. It'll go bright freaking green, stay bright green on you, and then at the last minute, correct it with acidity, which will take out kind of the baking soda flavor and bring the soup back, you know,
+
+[13:51] and once the temperature's a little bit lower, so it's not going to color change on you. Might be an interesting thing for you to try if you haven't tried it before. The other thing you can do is you, instead of replacing the magnesium with copper, you can
+
+[14:01] place, I mean, sorry, with hydrogen, you can replace it with copper. And it gets a crazy ass. you know those olives that are like that hyper break green? Like, not the olives, like manzania, but the hyper bright, like sharing some cherrinolas are hyper bright, like that. I think not sure. could be making this up, could be lying. I think that they add a little, probably lying. For those of you listening, probably a lie. That's the same color that's produced by taking the chlorophyll and replacing the magnesium with copper. And so you can do that, but too much copper is, what's the word I'm looking for? Poisonous. poisonous. That's a small amount of so that aren't. So anyway. So what are some other things that you can do to change colors? Well, another one, going back to McGee, who we were hanging out with at Tales of the Cocktail last week. if I get time to talk about it. I'll talk about it. Probably won't get time. Uh, especially if some of you suckers call in to 718-497-2128 with a question of 718-4728. Um, garlic and onions can turn interesting shades of blue and green when they're cooked very slowly. And the very 1st curious cook column that Harold McGee put into the New York Times, it's got to be like 4 years ago
+
+[15:03] now, 3 or 4 years ago. One of the things he treated was this fact that sometimes, if you puree onions and garlic or just cut up garlic and cook it very slowly,
+
+[15:13] it can turn green and blue. And what's happening is, is that some molecules, in fact, some of the ones that make it pungent, you know, some of these sulfur
+
+[15:23] compounds can get altered by enzymes that are native to the onions and the garlic. And then combine together into larger molecules, because typically larger molecules are pigmented, you know, or you can see them as opposed to smaller molecules, which are usually colorless.
+
+[15:38] Anyways. Uh, so the uh, Not always, usually. So what happens is they combine and they get these kind of like shocking blue and greens. And so anyone out there who's done any low temperature cooking, let's say you were to put a steak with garlic and butter in a bag and cooking at 55 Celsius for 2
+
+[15:53] hours. You'll notice that some of the garlic is going to turn kind of a bluish greenish. And this is something that you can do. And I've done, actually, we've made blue garlic soup using, I think it was blue, blue or green. I can't forget, like, onions turn green and garlic turn blue or the other way around, and you can, and you can alter the color by combining the different amounts of onion and garlic. Anyway, if you take a puree or even just slices of onion and garlic. You stick them in a bag and you cook it at like 55 degrees for like an
+
+[16:20] hour. The stuff's going to turn bright colors on you. You can then pressure cook it to neutralize some of those flavors so it's not too
+
+[16:26] strong, and then you can use it in large quantities and still have the color changed item to serve. If you don't cook it in a pressure cooker afterwards. And the color does stay, by the way. I done it. then you're in for a world of freaking hurt because if you can see that color, if it's a brightly colored
+
+[16:41] puree, Please don't go anywhere near your family or friends for the next week and a half . The other one that I could think of off the top of my head is that you can use, if you have a blood-basting, and Nathan Mirvold, Chris Young, and Maxine
+
+[16:55] Belay at all, the modernist cuisine, cookbook, cookbooks, the
+
+[16:59] mega opus, and when's he coming on, by the way? When's Mirvold coming on? The 3rd week of August. All right, and the 3rd week of August, Nathan Mirville is going to call into the show. So none of you chumps missed that stuff. Call in to Nathan Miravold in the 3rd week. What country am I going to be in? 16th. You'll be here. I'll be here. Awesome. Call in to hear, and you, our cooking issues listeners, are gonna get the opportunity to personally ask Nathan Mirvold a question.
+
+[17:26] Now, bear in mind, Nathan Mirvold, he might he might tear into it. Depends on what you ask. I mean, you know, you know, he's he's an opinionated guy. It should be interesting. I'm excited. I'm super excited, super looking forward to it. So get your questions ready for the Mirvold thing. And I think, hey, Jack, we can go an hour on an hour on Mirvold Day, right? Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. okay. The other one I was thinking of from their cookbook is you can take blood and hit it with carbon monoxide, the same stuff that you
+
+[17:51] use if you're going to suck a tailpipe, the sad stuff, carbon monoxide. If you take carbon monoxide and hit it to meat, it goes incredibly bright red. There's, there are 2, uh, there are 2 small children looking in the studio window right now who are incredibly curious about the radio
+
+[18:06] thing. Trust me, kids, it's not that interesting. Anyway, uh, so, uh, and this is how they make their uh, rare beef jus, where they cook uh, beef in a bag, and they can optionally hit it with carbon monoxide to get a really, really right
+
+[18:20] bread uh, bread color. You can also use this to rip off consumers by hitting meat with carbon monoxide to make it look bright red, even though it's
+
+[18:27] spoiled, and concursion bound, bought a piece of meat. Ken Kershimam, the polymer chemist and our buddy from the experimental cuisine collected at NYU, bought a piece of meat and basically kept it out of a fridge, turning, you know, awful for
+
+[18:40] weeks and stayed a nice bright red color because of the carbon monoxide they so nicely put into the container
+
+[18:45] for it. He hates that. He thinks it should be outlawed. Let's take a break. Not yet. Because that goes into this one question. Aaron Smith called in on bloodbasting. Nastasia, you know, only you could ruin such an awesome segue from going from changing the color of blood by adding carbon monoxide into a blood-based
+
+[19:02] face. ruined it for you. This nostage will always do this. You know what? If you're about to buy Nastasia a Christmas present or a birthday present, don't, because what's
+
+[19:11] going to happen is, is 5 seconds, literally, 5 seconds before you try to buy her something or get her something like a glass of
+
+[19:17] water, if she's thirsty, she will ask you for it and ruin the opportunity for you to get it for her.
+
+[19:22] That is a lot of information you're giving away. Yes, it's a lot of information, but it's true. It might be helpful to some of our listeners, should they ever meet you. Anyway, Aaron Smith writes in with a blood-basting question. Hi. I love the show and I'm thrilled that you're back from your break. I was looking through an old French cookbook. Uh, the, uh, La Varens Cuisine, Frose, uh, and from 1653, and notice an interesting instruction in roasting a pig like a boar. The recipe is you may disguise the boar. You may disguise the pig near to a boar. That is, after you've beaten it well, you shall endure it with blood. I don't know whether it's Endor Andoray. For me, we'll get into this. And after a while, stick it, spit it, and not forgetting to, I think I'm
+
+[19:59] going to say Andre, even though I don't know. Feet with blood before it's roasted, serve it as a boar with sauce or without it. Uh, and then uh, Aaron puts down at the definition of uh, indoor is to wet dog, uh, some liquor as one doth
+
+[20:11] of pie or cake before it's put into the oven. So basically a pig is basically with blood before it's roasted on a spit. And, um, Aaron's interested in what the blood might be doing. It has, and I'm saying, I keep saying your name a lot because I'm not sure if this is guy Aaron or girl Aaron. Aaron. Was it E or an E? E. Oh, can't tell. I can't tell. Don't know. anyway. Sorry about my lack of knowledge on that. Anyway, so I was curious about what's going on. He has sugars and amino acids, so it could be acting as a browning agent. I know a touch of glucose and pecking duct can lead a beautiful browning because glucose is reducing sugar, which you use to generate the
+
+[20:44] myard reaction, along with proteins and amino acids. The Google search led to Julia Child's description of press duck, where the duck is based in blood sauce while it's being roasted. And so is this a standard method that's fallen out of flavor? Have I ever based it with blood or in my press duck adventures? I want to know what was going on. Um, okay. Well, uh, and this is, and errands from San Diego. Um, so listen. As far as I know, uh, I'm going to say Andre, even though it might be indoor, is a technique not just for basting blood or going on pies, was a standard technique for coding things with different colors in medieval
+
+[21:22] times. So as a presentation trick. For instance, if you were making a cock and trice, which is a bird, you know, the back end of a bird glued under the front of a pig, right, you would take the seams and whatnot
+
+[21:31] on the outside and you would endure it with different mixtures that would kind of form a crust and also color it to make it look more fanciful, right? Um, and then, you know, typically you would set that by then baking it, uh, or roasting it. Now, uh, when I make a press duck, I don't, uh, well, you know, what, what I always did, and the recipes I have, and I think this is the way Tour d'Argent, the restaurant does it, is they, they take the
+
+[21:54] duck, uh, that's been strangled, so the blood doesn't go out, or suffocated. And then they press the blood and juices out, then the blood becomes a thickening agent for the sauce that you use.
+
+[22:04] Then when you cut the meat's already been par roasted, then you cut off the breast slices and you reheat them in the sauce, and then the sauce thickens up,
+
+[22:14] et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know of any recipe where you then baste it and roast it again. It's more kind of just a reheat with the slices. There's famous recipes for like civet, like or civet, I guess. I know how you pronounce it in French, of rabbit, or jugged hair, which is the way a US person would say it, that uses the blood of the hair as a
+
+[22:30] thickening agent, but the last, at the last part of the sauce, because it will then thicken up and can curdle and break.
+
+[22:36] Nils Norin says in Sweden, they have a famous blood soup that's made from goose blood that is cooked for a long
+
+[22:42] time, and I think with acid to stop it from coagulating too much. Um, so there is a long history of this, but the idea of using it as an outer coating. I would think that it would set and then and then congeal with the heat and then maybe crust up as it dries out, but I don't know what it would taste
+
+[22:58] like. Uh, it doesn't gross me out, mean blood, meat. It's all part of the animal. If the animal, unless, look, unless you're kosher, in which case, you know, don't eat the
+
+[23:07] blood because the blood is the life and if you do, you know, a curse on your people, you shall be cut off from your people, et cetera, et
+
+[23:12] cetera. But unless it's like religiously barred from you, for you from having it, I think it's a waste to throw it away because, you know,
+
+[23:21] you done killed the animal anyway, I might as well use everything you
+
+[23:25] can. I mean, I think that's a more modern way of looking at it. So, I, you know, it's another thing. Why is it inherently more gross nostalgia to eat the blood or any weird part of
+
+[23:33] the of the animal? Why is it more inherently gross than any other part? Like, why is like, like, couldn't we culturally be raised? be like, 0 my god, the loin? Yeah. Gross. Right? I mean, why is it inherently is it because when we cut ourselves? We like, crap, that's blood, we're freaked out by it. Yeah, I think it's a it's a, yeah. Same reason why people think that like they're making a sexual statement by eating like, you know, deer testicles and stuff like that. You know, when a guy eats a deer testicle, people are like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, is it because of some sort of weird, like, sexual connotation? Yeah, right? So like things that are gross of things that like we don't want to eat, like, you know, things that, whatever, very strange. Anyway, all right, so now we will go to our 1st commercial break, call it our questions, too, 718-497-2128, Cooking issues.
+
+[24:33] Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. But then you can't be him. But I don't get what they say. And I'm coming from a friendly place. I'm feeling quick, and I don't miss the link, and I better don't leave no trace. Hey check it out. Check it out Take out this new What about my new trick? And believe me, the captain was so stealing hard. The cats don't speak, feel it hard. Some cats, but some bad, for the biggest odds. Check me out. That's where we must start. Buff, the stars, taking place, so keep it bible, fighting, when you
+
+[25:25] got some old fights, and the bugs can't make, okay. Every jump, gotta be, on the hip, just...
+
+[25:36] We gotta be hip on the hip hop.
+
+[25:44] Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Join Linda Palacio for a taste of the past every Thursday at 12 p.m.
+
+[25:55] as she indulges her curiosities about food, cooking, drinking, and dining of the
+
+[25:59] past, by taking a journey through culinary history. Linda interviews authors, scholars, friends, and chroniclers to learn about what was eaten, where, and how, from as long ago as ancient Mesopotamia and Rome, right up to the grazing tables and deli counters of
+
+[26:15] today. The show underscores food as a lively link between present and past cultures. Again, that's Thursday at 12 PM on the Heritage Radio Network. So nice, that is true. Welcome back to cooking issues. By the way, Jack has managed to find, and I really like it. One of the, must be one of the only James Brown songs that I don't know. Oh, wow. You know, like, you know, I don't know how many 1000s of hours I've listened to James Brown and managed to get one of the ones I don't
+
+[26:49] know. Great too, though. called Cold-blooded, and it's from the record called Hell. Oh, yeah. Guess what? I'm gonna go out and download today. No offense, James. I spent many. Well, you're dead. But not I've spent many, many, 100s of dollars on your products. I think I'm going to go steal this one on the internets. What do you think, Nastasha? don't know. Cold-blooded? Hell. Anyway, by the way, I think Linda Palacio might be a good person to ask that last question on blood and history. Then Napalacio is I think she wants to be involved somehow with the Museum of Food and Drink, and we'd love to have her involved. So if I see her, which I very rarely do, but if I see her, I'll ask her that blood question, because that might be right up her alley. Okay. Naveen Sinha writes in. And by the way, Naveen is the head TA for was last year. I know if he is this year, uh, for the class that uh, Faran uh, Adria headlined uh, in Harvard. needs a vegetarian. Okay, nostalgia. Why don't you bust on the guy for being a vegetarian on the radio, the guy already, listen, this poor guy. All right, listen, this poor guy, Naveen, right? He goes to this event, and he's now hanging out with all these chefs, right? Because he was involved with this class at Harvard where they had some of the world's greatest chefs go in, like Wiley, my brother-in-law, all these guys go in. And like all chefs invariably bust on this guy for being a vegetarian. Leave the guy alone. No? He's the DA at Harvard in the food studies program. And he's not a TA in Harvard of the Food Studies program. He's in the physics and material science program, and they're teaching a study, they're teaching a class on how to learn about that subject through the lens of food.
+
+[28:25] Yes. Yes. Leave the man alone on his vegetarians. Please. He's a nice guy. hope he calls in. Yeah, well, if he if he does, I recommend he calls in 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Anyway, Naveen writes, and he says he recently read about the Uzo effect, in which
+
+[28:47] Annis flavored spirits and liqueurs become a pick, white usually, unless it's been colored beforehand, when diluted with water. I was wondering if you have seen this effect, occur with other types of spirits. And also, do I know of any other examples of color changing beverages? Thanks. All right, so, uh, what's happening with, um, with, uh, Uzo or, I don't know why the hell they call it the Uzo effects. Seriously, like, they say that Uzo is drunk more in the U.S. than Pastise,
+
+[29:15] Ricard, or Absinthe. But since absinthe, you know, went through that surge in popularity after the use effect have been
+
+[29:21] characterized, maybe we should rename it the absinthe effect. How many by a show of hands out in the world on the internet, how many of you have had a glass of Uzo this
+
+[29:29] year? Anyone? anyone, right? Some sort of absinthe beverage? There's 2 people in here raising their hands. you know what I mean? Or pastice or Pernot based substance. Anyways. So, uh, I'm going to forget the name because for some reason I forgot to paste it into my iPad. But, um, I believe the uh, the oil involved, the chemical is called Anatol. I think it's what it's called. Anatol. Someone will call in and say, I can't believe you forgot the name of it, but there it is, I did. Uh, and what happens is, is that it's a very interesting effect, when
+
+[29:59] you're making, um, usually when you're making emulsion, you have to provide energy, usually, uh, mechanical energy, to, uh,
+
+[30:06] create uh, the little droplets of oil inside of uh, a liquid. And the reason is, is because it takes a lot less energy for, because there's a lot more surface
+
+[30:16] area and there's actual energy associated with keeping 2 admissible, i.e. don't mix together liquids next to each other. So that's why usually you have to beat things with whisks and blenders to get them to emulsify. Another thing you can do to lower the amount of energy you could put in is to add an emulsifier, which takes away some of the energy required to make that emulsion. But the way the Uzo effect works is entirely different. Instead of using mechanical energy, an emulsion is
+
+[30:41] made basically almost spontaneously, it's called spontaneous emulsion. And what's going on is that the oil is soluble in ethanol, in alcohol, but not in water. So, uh, what happens as you dilute, uh, you know, I'm going to say uh, absinthe or Pernot, right? Because I don't drink Uzo, uh, you know, why not other things like that? Why not like, uh, why not like Aguardiente or any other anise flavored thing? Like, why Uzo? No offense to the Greeks. No offense. You know what I mean? Anyway. So, uh, when you dilute it with water, um, you have the entire solution is basically uh, evenly and homogeneously saturated
+
+[31:22] with uh, with this oil, and all of a sudden becomes supersaturated. And it does it in a way that many, many, many, many, many, 1000000s of tiny, tiny droplets are instantly
+
+[31:34] formed, right? And because that's super fast nucleation, you get these small, small droplets that are stabilized,
+
+[31:41] right? For hours and hours and hours, sometimes even days, depending on how it works. And so it's this, like, instant, like, super saturation and massive nucleation that causes the uso effect. And yes, it is visible in many other spirits. I don't know of any commercial spirits,
+
+[32:00] uh, other than the anise flavored ones where it happens, uh, because that's famous. But many of the spirits that we make in the rotary evaporator will show the
+
+[32:09] Uzo effect when they're diluted. So some of our Thai basil spirits will, if you add water to them, they will go white on you when you mix. And then later on, if you let it sit for days and days, the oil will float to the top. Um, and just tons of them, I've had caraway go white on me when I, when I've done it. And I don't know what the components are in it that's doing it, but I've had some of our
+
+[32:32] caraway, although maybe it was the caraway that we put fennel into, which would make more sense maybe. Maybe. possible. Um, but so the answer is, Naveen, yes, there are other oils that are, uh, you know, soluble in ethanol and weekly or insoluble in water and have this
+
+[32:51] effect. The other thing that liquors can do to change colors is you can shift acid-based equilibria. So you can have a liquor that's neutral, that has anthocyanins in it, and they'll start out in the bluish range, and
+
+[33:05] then, like blue corn. And then as you acidify it with lemon juice or whatnot, it'll turn
+
+[33:11] red, a reddish purple, that's another thing you can do, although I don't know of any there's some teas in Thailand that are flower-based. There's a blue flower-based tea in Thai. I believe it's Thailand, because nastasia, yeah, that we researched. And that one, you make the tea and it's blue, you add the lemon, it turns red. So that's something you can do. Another thing you can do is you can do kind of a reverse ouzo, where you can suspend a weekly soluble, like calcium or magnesium salt in. And then when you acidify it, it'll go clear. Uh, Nastasia and I have had, uh, we had to do, we, it's interesting you should ask this because we tried those things for this event we had to do. didn't try that flower. What was that called? We couldn't find a flower. I forget the name of it. It's similar to like a blue cornflower or something. It looked that color of blue. Anyway, but it was very rare here in the US. Anyway, so we tried it and not too much good effect, especially because we needed to do the opposite of what was easy. We needed to go not from red to not from blue to red, but from red to blue and basic drinks. Let me just tell you, what's the word we're looking for here? Gross. Gross. Okay. Brian Oaks writes in on iPads and fruits. I know from the radio show that you have an iPad. Any recommendations on food related apps? No, I don't really, I don't really have any food related apps. Yeah, you do. What? Chang's thing. What? Chang's app. I don't have that on here. Is that released yet? Yeah, I think so. But listeners, if you're interested in developing an app for heritage radio network, email us at info at heritageradionetwork.com. Wow. Nice. I've heard some people like the ratio thing, but I've never used it. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I know people that like that. Yeah? And I hear that, I don't, you know who, you know, Jerry Lavish, our web guru, he would know because he does that kind
+
+[34:58] of stuff. I, look, I use my iPad as basically a book. It's basically like, you know, I have like, uh, you know, you know, probably a 100,000 pages or something of uh, of science related uh, books and articles uh, in my
+
+[35:11] iPad, and that's mainly what I what I use it for. Um, but then people write in. Tell us what they think their best, their best food apps are. Also, Brian just got back from a trip to Florida and stopped by the Fruit and Spice Park. Good job. Everyone should go to the Fruit and Spice Park. I think we talked about it last week a little bit, right? Our trip to Spice Park, but he has a recommendation I might have forgotten to make, which is I would recommend bringing something to rinse your hands and face with because you were going to be covered with
+
+[35:35] sweet, drippy, sticky mango juice. Not that there's anything wrong with that, he adds. I say I've been at least 15 different mangoes and it could have tried at least a dozen more. Why not? Why didn't you? Maybe I don't have to go to dinner. Maybe. Or maybe they were maybe because maybe he didn't get the super, like, treatment and they chased him out of there. I'm thinking rapid infusion with mango puree and rum. Keep up the great show, Brian Oaks. Although, you know what? I really want to do, and as I want to take some of those mangoes and infuse the mango chunks in a vacuum with booze, because that's to be delicious, but we couldn't, when we went, harvest enough of these mangoes to do that
+
+[36:10] to. It's an excellent recommendation, by the way, bringing something to wash your hands and face with. What I used when I was out was the incessant rainstorm that was pounding us with buckets of water every 10 seconds, right? So we had a separate problem and that we couldn't like keep our cameras out because none of us had like, you know, diving cameras because we were basically tasting mangoes in like 3 feet of water.
+
+[36:31] Like we needed like snorkel gear to do our tasting. Um, But you know what, I've had this problem so many times, you want to take fruit out of a tasting, and you don't know what to do. So anyone out there who has this, and we need a way to label fruits. Sharpies don't write on on waxy fruits, especially when it's raining, and the Sharpie comes
+
+[36:50] off and the Sharpie starts writing. So Sharpie, I know I love Sharpie, Sharpie, all love to you, and for all of the all of the good times that we've had together, but it is ineffective for writing the names on
+
+[37:00] fruits if the weather is at all messed up. They need to make a fruit sharpie. Yeah, thank you, Nastasia. They need to make a fruit sharpie. Are you listening out there, people? Someone either tell me, look, I don't want it to be horribly toxic. Like, I'm not willing to die to label my fruit, but I need some sort of like fruit
+
+[37:17] label so I can write on it. The other idea has like, what if they had like a special like little, like, needle thing where you could like, almost like, you know, one of those old dimo, like label makers that would punch that
+
+[37:26] tape. But like you could just like quickly like type the letter and it would stencil into the fruit skin. We should just bring whatever that thing is called. Any tape you put on will come right the heck off if it's raining. And, like, like, McGee and I were out there the 2nd day when you were driving to Miami, we were trying to write, and
+
+[37:44] the, as we were writing, the paper was bleeding off into the, uh, into the earth. It was a freaking nightmare, which,
+
+[37:51] which, A, meant that we could taste fewer fruits, and B is making our job of figuring out what the heck we ate a lot, lot harder.
+
+[37:57] Anyway, I'm glad someone's going to the fruit and spice park. Everyone should go to Miami. Look, if any of you guys plan a trip to Miami, you need to go down to South
+
+[38:10] Day to the homestead area to the fruit and spice park. And then when they tell you that you can't eat the fruit. I don't know, punch them in the face, uh, don't do that. dont do that. And do whatever you can to get a hold of some of the fruit. They usually let you eat the fruit that's fallen on the ground. The problem with the fruit, it's 2 things I've noticed. One, the problem with the fruit spice part is that they allow the public in a lot, and so they have to be careful about the fruits because otherwise they'd be stripped bare instantaneously.
+
+[38:36] Um, The other problem is, is that tropical fruit people are more covetous of their fruit. This has been my experience, my relatively small experience as opposed to temperate fruit people. Like you have someone with an orchard fruit or like a pear, apple orchard, you know, whatever. You're like, can I have this fruit? They're like, yeah, take it. Take it. Otherwise, it's gonna fall on the ground and rot. You know what I mean? if they're not commercial. If they're commercial, it's a different story. But these guys are like, they know every, remember these guys knew every single mango that was on that tree, and if you took one, they're like, where that mango? You know what I mean? It's like they're, it's a different, different kind of crew. I still haven't figured it quite out yet. Anyway, why don't we take one more commercial break and then come back and slam through these last couple questions. Call your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[39:48] We live in Brooklyn, baby We
+
+[39:59] live in Brooklyn, baby. We trying to make it, baby. We wanna make it, baby. We're gonna make it, baby. Living in Brooklyn, baby. Hey, don't remember. Wow. Anyway, yeah, Nastasia, by the way, even though we're are we on? Yeah, even though we're in Brooklyn, a lot of the time, Nastasia is like an old school Brooklyn hater.
+
+[40:33] So anyone out there, anyone out there who's a Brooklyn Patriot, please call in and give Nastasia a serious ribbing. Nastasia. You also. No. No, I hate the roads in Brooklyn. Like, someday for this, we're going to do the entire session on Neil Diamond's, Brooklyn Rhodes, and it must be some sort of like crazy sarcastic song because the roads here in Brooklyn. Brooklyn Roads. Yeah. He was on Brooklyn Rhodes. Rambling Roads? Brooklyn Rhodes. No, this crack. Crackling Rose. Crackling Rose. Yeah, Brooklyn Rhodes. Yeah, yeah. Get up on your Neil Diamond, all right? Anyway. Uh, so because the roads here are some of the worst dang things in the world. It's like, you know, it's it's like you, someone's sitting there and throwing hand grenades into the pavement and blowing holes in it for no apparent
+
+[41:19] reason. And then, and then they, or, or, or, like, somehow, like, meteorites made of asphalt or falling into the, into the road and just leaving giant, like, or volcanoes of asphalt or coming out of the
+
+[41:31] road, different points. And if you're a biker, the roads of Brooklyn are, what's the word? crap, right? Crap. Anyway. But Brooklyn itself, I enjoy. I enjoy Brooklyn itself, just not their roads. Okay. James T. Ray writes in about popcorn. Normally I eat with reckless abandon. However, I love to snack and I wanted a low calorie option. I like popcorn as a snack and recently purchased an air popper to pop my corn and I love it. So the question, can I get salt to adhere to the popcorn without a lipid or making a soggy mess? And by the way, I've tried the cooking spray with mixed results. I love the show James T. Ray. Um, well, the 1st thing you can do is to get uh, popcorn salt. So, Morton makes many different kinds of salt. And one of them is popcorn salt. I just dropped my iPad. And popcorn and salt is very, very, very fine. And so it adheres to popcorn, much better than even their iodized
+
+[42:36] salt and definitely better than kosher salt and things like that. and super, super fine, easy to distribute. So if you've had mixed results with the cooking spray, which is what I was going to recommend before I read the last line of your thing. you know, spread it out, spray a little cookie spray, and then a fine dusting of this popcorn
+
+[42:54] salt. I think you're going to get better adhesion. Aside from that, I did a primary search. There are, I mean, you could do... I mean, all the other things make it such a pain in the butt that I don't know that you do it. You can make like a, like an, an alcohol dispersion, like a, like a vodka dispersion of salt, spray it over the popcorn, throw it in an oven and dry it back out with a pain in the butt.
+
+[43:17] I mean, you want to make popcorn, presumably you want to eat it. at some point, right? You don't want to sit there and rewet it, redry it out, right? It doesn't make any sense, right? Nastasia, that's too much trouble, right? I just put salt and sugar on mine. Air popped? Did you listen to the question at all? What's air popped is like in the in the popper? Again, Nastasia's sitting there thinking about... I am sure she's thinking about lunch, which we're going to have, delicious Roberta's lunch. Instead of what's going on. Air popper means that it's basically like a hairdryer that's
+
+[43:45] contained, and by the way, your air popper makes a good coffee roaster. I don't know whether you knew that, James. you can roast coffee in your air popper. You have to be careful because the chaff flies all over your room. You have to contain it, make sure it doesn't catch on fire, fire is a problem. Anyway, I used to do it. For years, I used an air popcorn maker before I bought a coffee roaster and then moved to
+
+[44:04] Whirlipop, which is actually my favorite popcorn making technique. So in air popping nastasia. There is no added oil. Mm, okay. Yeah. I wonder whether you can add just a small amount of oil to the popcorn kernels as you're popping them in the air
+
+[44:17] popper, and then, um, maybe then increase adhesion. I don't know. That might, because if the spray problem was that maybe it wasn't getting all over it. Maybe a small amount of oil on the popcorn kernels themselves. But the problem with doing that, and is probably why it won't work, is that it's what's that technology, air popping, is what's called a fluid bed kind of technology where the popcorn kernels are all separated from each other and kept agitated by the air that's blowing in
+
+[44:41] them. And then when a popcorn kernel pops, it immediately becomes less dense than its unpopped
+
+[44:46] cousins and then floats to the surface and it is pushed out so it doesn't burn at the bottom. And so I wonder whether adding a small amount of oil would kind of ruin that effect or get into it or just ruin everything in general. But I know that you can have oil in a popcorn popper because that's how
+
+[45:01] I, when you roast coffee, the oils are in there and the oil gets on the inside of the air popcorn popper and it does foul it a little bit, but it
+
+[45:10] doesn't like ruin it in any way. So that could be another thing to do. My 1st step would be to get the actual popcorn salt and you can buy it on, you
+
+[45:16] could buy it on the amazon.com. Anyway, Garth writes in about vanilla. We grow vanilla in the South Pacific Island of Tonga and process the beans into different products in New Zealand. How would we produce a vanilla foam that we could use at food shows for attendees to scoop some foam from a bowl to taste our
+
+[45:32] vanilla? I visualize a nice glass fish bowl without any fish with an aeration. He actually says fish removed. Get a new one. Don't just remove the fish from the fish bowl because then you're killing the fish. I don't think he was saying that. Anyway, all right. Hey, just without a fish. buy a new one. Anyway, with an aeration pump causing a liquid in the bowl to foam up so people can just scoop some on a tasting stick. Not sure what type of base would be best as it ideally would just suit our vanilla flavor without too much else competing. Could taste like a custard, a panna cotta, ice cream, jelly, citrus, et cetera. We have carragin, but no other high-tech ingredients. Okay. Foam done with a aquarium pump in a bowl, or in any sort of vessel, was something that a bunch of chefs were working on and was 1st crafted and pioneered by Andoni
+
+[46:21] Aderis, from, you know, at Mugeritz in like years ago. And his recipe, which is on the internets, I
+
+[46:30] think, if you just search, the famous dish he made with it was called Vanity. And it had a chocolate foam. Uh, and what he, the basic recipe is 2% uh, powdered egg whites by weight uh, of the mixture, which, you know, then
+
+[46:47] lets uh, uh, what's the word, hydrate. And 0.one, i.e. uh, one, is that right? One gram in a liter, can't be that low. Look it up, it's something like that. One gram in a liter of Xanthan gum. If you can get Carraginan, I'm pretty sure you can get Xanthan where you are. If not, it's easy to mail or Xanthan, and you only have to use a tiny, tiny bit of it so you can get a hold of it. And that's the basic recipe that he uses to make the big air bubble foams. And then you just put it in the bottom and do that. Now, the downside is, is, they have very little flavor in them because they are like 99.99% air with only a little bit of bubbles and they pop almost
+
+[47:30] instantaneously. I mean, that's the idea of it. I think that for what you're doing, you're going to want a more dense stable foam. Uh, in which case you could probably just use powdered egg whites and vanilla, uh, and your vanilla extracted water, um, or something. I'm not trying to think of what the best foam would be. You could use, if you have Agar, you can make a fluid gel and then and then shoot it out of an ISI canister. The problem with foams is I think they're going to reduce the flavor of your vanilla by introducing a lot of air into it.
+
+[48:00] The other problem is, is you might want to look at an article brought to my attention also by McGee. Uh, uh, from 1997 called The Effect of Milk Fat on the Flavor Perception of Vanilla Ice Cream. Basically, the more fat you have, the more muted your perception of the vanilla
+
+[48:16] flavor is. So I would stay away from anything that contained fat because if you're going to want to highlight this. And I sense why you want to have it in a phone because you want the air, and then, 1st of all, you probably don't want to use that much of it, and you probably want to have the flavor come out. You also don't want to use a lot of heat because heat is going to alter the flavor of your vanilla. It's too bad you can't get something like versa whip, which you can then just whip it up into a foam with a little
+
+[48:41] malto-dextrine or something like, you know, what else?
+
+[48:46] Like versa whip or, yeah, methocell F50. I mean, you could try just a stable egg white foam. Um, you could probably get pasturized egg whites and then do it that way and do it uncooked, but I don't want you to have that eggy flavor, but I don't, A, I don't want you to heat it because I don't want you to alter the flavor of the vanilla through the heat. And B, I don't want
+
+[49:09] you. Uh, I don't want to add any fat because then, um, you're adding fat. You know what? Maybe a minimum amount of heat, like almost like an Italian meringue where you whip the egg white, and then you pour the hot sugar in to set it a little bit, but it's not really cooking it for a long
+
+[49:23] time, that might get it. And then you could just basically have this like meringue, almost meringue icing that people could scoop up and then just go sugar and vanilla. It's gonna have the air, you get good delivery. What do you think? Yeah. slow tech. Yeah, low tech, delicious, delicious and low tech. Also, you could maybe stir some vanilla in after you cook it so that you so that you have some totally uncooked vanilla in it. if you go a little overstiff. These are my recommendations, Garth. Use them for what they're worth, which is probably nothing. Uh, lastly, uh, Jason writes in about Nix Demol. Hi, Dave. I love the post about nextimilization. Thank you. But I'm having trouble doing it here in the UK because field corn is not common. I have 2 questions. Do you need to use intact kernels or can you use broken cracked kernels? Most field corn here is sold as bird feed, a lot of it cracked. Also, can I use a grain mill, like the one that would connect to my kitchen aid, make sure to grind the grain after treatment? Thanks, Jason. Unfortunately, Jason, cracked corn won't work because it doesn't hydrate the same, basically,
+
+[50:25] um, the outside, the pericarp is what's stopping the water from going instantly into the corn kernel and overcooking
+
+[50:31] it. And so if you treat it with lye and it's already been broken, it's just, no, it just won't work. It won't be the same. What I would recommend if you can't get field corn is use, even though I said in the post not to use popcorn, popcorn will work, right?
+
+[50:48] It's just not quite as, um, It's just, it's just harder. It's not ideal for it, but it's better than brack, cracked or broken. So I would try to use, I would get popcorn. You'll get the largest kernel ones, not the small kernel variety that you can. And is it the best? No, because it's hard to grind, right? Uh, I would not use the KitchenAid, that thing's gonna gum up. I have one, a grain mill, kitchen eight grain mill. Things gonna gum up, lickety, lickety, lickety split. I would then, you know, if you have to, I would use a food processor. Um, and, you know, and then maybe even border and uh, mortar and pestle some of it to get the texture down. The problem with the food processor is you're going to have to add more water. I have done it. It's a sticky, awful mess, but I have done it. Um, so you can, you can do it. It's just, you know, it's not ideal, but it definitely is possible for experimentation. The people ate the, my, uh, tortillas that I made
+
+[51:43] with, uh, with popcorn uh, and a food processor, and they didn't, you know, they didn't punch me in the face. I didn't also, I didn't have those looks of, me, well, this was good, but me, me, me, me. You know what I'm talking? those looks? Yeah. Anyway, so give it a try. And I'd appreciate anyone from the UK because I've had a couple people maybe have this problem right in with their solutions to finding good ways to do
+
+[52:03] niximalization in the UK. Anyway, come back next week and get another episode of cooking issues.
+
+[52:16] Vicious, fish. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. AMP goes local. The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company, commonly known as the AMP, that grocery chain you've seen all your life, has glommed onto the concept of local and
+
+[52:49] sustainable and has just introduced a new consortium of producers known as the mid-Atlantic country farms, from which they will source beef and poultry. The animals are antibiotic and hormone free, raised on vegetarian feed. There is no mention of certified humane or animal welfare approved status, however. Maybe they haven't gotten that far in the marketing department. But what makes this of interest is that AMP supplies all AMP supermarkets,
+
+[53:12] pathmark, food emporium, walled bounds, and superfresh. These are not particularly high-end supermarkets. So this is good news for the average consumer. If you want to read more about this, you can go to the AMP website, which is
+
+[53:23] www.apt.com slash press room. This has been behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Figure on the Pulp and City Winery, our proud present the Summer Barbecue Blowout Festival, August 6th, from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at City Winery located at 155 Barrack Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire Mayonnaise, Van Dag, Momofuco Mofar, Imperial No. 9, Myeland, Mexico,
+
+[53:54] Craft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, the Meatball Shop, and Dose Toros. Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, computer magic, new villager, punches,
+
+[54:03] Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ, VIP, and general admission tickets are available at citywandery.com. Finger Lepole for City One, we like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Troods USA, New York magazine, Break of Vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City, Subzero, and Wolf.
+
+[54:22] Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.f-OTPNYC.com.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes store. On behalf of everybody at HeritageRadioNetwork.com, we'd like to send a special thank you to the Hearst Ranch, our biggest supporter and longest running sponsor since we 1st started in 2009.
+
+[0:37] First ranch is the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural, grass
+
+[0:42] fed and grass finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the
+
+[0:48] rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and natural as the surrounding landscape. For more information, visit www.herstranch.com.
+
+[1:09] Vicious, fish, vodka. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. Hi, I'm Daylon, your hosting Quickly. She's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Nastasia has been held up today late. I think she's fallen victim to our fabulous, fabulous L Train. Yeah, I just got a text that said Effing L train. Yeah, Effing L Train. Yeah. So it's a, you know, it's a far cry for who is that band? Shootsie groove that had the pro L-train song. What the heck were they thinking? Never heard of such a thing. Yeah, look it up. Well, maybe let's see if we can get that for our, for our, what's it called? You know, our interest song thing. So Jackson, I'm unable to remember the telephone number here. Can you give it to them? 718-497-2128. That is 718-497-2128. Call in with all of your live, cooking or non-cooking related questions, technical or not. Okay, so start with questions that have been emailed to us beforehand. This one comes from now, okay, last name's P-E-T-H-O with an umlaut. I'm going to assume that's pronounced peter, but I don't know. Joseph Petter and Corby Kummer, our friend from the Atlantic Monthly, the senior food editor there, says, Dave, an article, and there's been many, so we'll talk about
+
+[2:33] it about sugar, suggests that sugar does not melt, rather decomposes, and that there is a time temperature relationship associated with sugar.
+
+[2:41] My question, and this is Joseph's question. Corby just was like, hey, what's up with this? Anyway, my question is that does that mean that sous vide caramel can be created? Any thoughts on this? As for me, I will try some experiments soon. Uh, okay. So I'm going to fill everyone in. There's a bunch of research that's been produced recently by a group of
+
+[3:00] people mainly out of University of Illinois, showing that sugar does not actually melt in a traditional sense, but rather
+
+[3:09] melt and decomposes at the same time, right? So a traditional material with a traditional melting point, like a metal, you can take it from a
+
+[3:18] solid, uh, to a liquid, back to a solid, back to a liquid, back to a solid, back to a liquid, blah,
+
+[3:23] blah, blah, blah, blah, right? You know, virtually add infinitum, uh, assuming there's no oxidation, stuff like this, right? This has a traditional melting point. Oh, Nastasia just showed up, the L train. Hold a second. I'm gonna have to lift my headphone cord so she can get into her customary seat. Oh, there goes the microphone. All right, here we go. All right, now we're up to full staff. Now, um, sugar on the other hand, right? The research has shown that every time someone's tried to figure out what the melting point of table sugar is sucrose. They've noticed that it's been widely variant over to the literature. And these guys did a study basically showing that there is no single melting point that basically it starts to decompose. And that basically shifts when it melts. So how fast you heat it changes basically when it appears to melt. And all the way up to when they're using something extremely quickly where they can ramp up the temperature on the order of like five, 600 degrees Celsius per minute. And still, they're showing a shift. They have data that shows that sugar starts to break down roughly at 120 degrees Celsius, which is too hot
+
+[4:29] for too hot for sous vide. But not, well, I forget what the temperature in a pressure cooker is, but it's somewhere in that region. you might be able to do something in a pressure cooker. I have gotten things to sugars to brown in a pressure cooker over time. But at 120 C at normal pressure, you're talking about long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time for it
+
+[4:50] to start sugar to start breaking down. Of course, you can get the temperature well above 120 C in a pressure cooker by basically just reducing the amount of water present.
+
+[5:00] Anyway, so sous vide, caramel. No, but very interesting research on sugar, and it basically decomposing at the time that at the same time that it
+
+[5:09] melts, and so not having a melting point. And for those of you that really give a hoot and holler about this, look up, investigation of the heating rate dependency associated with the loss of crystalline, structure, and sucrose, glucose, and fructose, using thermal analysis, approach,
+
+[5:25] 120 C, using thermal analysis approach, parts one and 2 of this year, along with their blockbuster follow-up. Can the thermodynamic melting a temperature of sucrose, glucose and fructose be measured using rapid scanning differential scanning
+
+[5:38] calorimetry? So, I mean, those are with scintillating reading this morning, Nastasia. I can't tell you how excited I was to read all those papers this morning. Oh my god. Yeah. Anyway, okay. So, another question in from Steve. Uh, you know, Steve, a often writing in, although I don't have his last name, but Steve, writes in on pressure cookers
+
+[5:57] and uh, has a question on pressure cookers and on salt. Hey, thanks, Ryan's, answering my question about pressure cookers and no, the electric one. He has an electric one. doesn't hit 15 PSI, only manages 10 to 12 PSI, but on the plus
+
+[6:09] side, it can get really hot, so it's great for browning, and I don't have to keep an eye on it when it's cooking, still experimenting with it and having fun with the results.
+
+[6:14] Since I last spoke about electric pressure cookers, Cuisinart sent me one of their electric pressure cookers. It does indeed do browning. It is great and that is quiet, doesn't release steam, doesn't release kind of any extra moisture into the
+
+[6:28] atmosphere, but I was trying to run tests on it to see what the pressures related were.
+
+[6:32] And indeed, I wasn't even able to get 10 PSI. I was able to get roughly, I think, 9 PSI based on the temperature measurements, which didn't quite make it to 140. I forget what the actual numbers were. So my next, it has something to do with the way that they're regulating the temperature based on the bottom. There's like a little spring that shows that the thing is in and then they're measuring the temperature at the bottom and that's how they're calculating what to do it. They're not actually measuring pressure as far as I can tell. So my next step is to open up the cuisin art, and see whether there's a potentiometer or something in there that I can futz with that'll change what the temperature set limit is.
+
+[7:10] If there is, I'm going to adjust the temperature up to have it be at 15 PSI and see whether, because I really want my pressure cookers to be at 15 PSI. I've run a lot of tests where we check the taste of different things at different pressures. And honestly, what, 15 PSI, 2nd ring is pretty optimal for things like stocks and also for the speed of cooking and for the modification of texture and things like
+
+[7:33] meats. So I want it to be 15 PSI. So more to work on that later, but it does seem like a great piece of equipment. I'm trying to figure out how to hack it now. If any of you have had experience hacking cuisinar pressure cookers, Please write in and tell us how to do it before I ruin the one that was sent
+
+[7:50] me, because I would like to use it eventually in my house, after I finish messing with it, right? Anyway, thanks to Queens not for sending it. Okay. By the way, if any of you have some cool equipment out there that you wanted us to beat on and look at, send us some equipment to beat on and look at. We have a calling stage? Call, are you on the air? Hi, David, it's Colin. Hey. Hey, uh, very long radio silence. had something to ask you. Sure. Uh, so have you, you cooked with Sorrel very much? Uh, I've only, you know, you, I've used fresh, uh, and I've used the basically the red, the hibiscus style stuff to
+
+[8:30] do, uh, beverages. Um, you know, for it's basically the, the, the acidity and the color. You know, there's a whole group of, uh, uh, Caribbean and also African beverages based
+
+[8:40] on, uh, Yeah, yeah, like the world drinks. Yeah, I think they're great. I mean, they're, you know, the, the acidity is very kind of specific. I haven't looked up what the acid is. I think it's, I think it, I'm not, I think it
+
+[8:55] sucks Alex, but I'm not totally. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, yeah. It's at least partially that, and that's what gives it its similar kind of acid characteristic to something like rhubarb.
+
+[9:06] So, and, you know, for those of you that haven't had sorrel, but have had rhubarb,
+
+[9:11] they have a similar sort of feeling in its acidity. And so I would bet that their acid makeup is fairly similar. That said, I love it as a drink. I've had, I haven't had good luck yet mixing it as an alcoholic rink. The ones I've really enjoyed. I've been more like non-alcoholic drinks. Have you had any good luck with it as an alcoholic drink? No, I haven't actually tried it as a drink yet. I just sort of have some growing and have been cooking with it a lot. Right. But, uh, so the thing is, you know how it's got that really nice, bright, fresh acidic flavor when it's raw. Uh, when you cook it, it gets, it takes, it gets very excellent texture. It's just kind of like creamy, velvety kind of goop texture
+
+[9:57] that's, that's pretty nice. Similar to like metals. Um, yeah, I'm not totally like, uh, I've only had them in, like,
+
+[10:06] pesto, so, like, all that, but, uh, let's see. Oh, but so it takes on this kind of cooked spinach flavor that kind of muddles every, like, you know, kind of, uh,
+
+[10:18] take some of the freshness out of that flavor that I really enjoyed.
+
+[10:22] So I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to, you know, cook the soil or get
+
+[10:28] it, that creamy consistency. Uh, one, because, like, one nice thing about it is you can then strain that through a cheesecloth and get rid of all the fibrous matter, because it, I don't know, it just turns into, like, like I said, into this, like,
+
+[10:40] goop, and uh, so I'm trying to see, you know, if I could turn that into something flossy. But you want to turn the leftover fiber into something fluffy or do you want to turn the... No, no, the, get rid of the fiber, just like to, so you only have that creamy texture.
+
+[10:57] Of the kind of leaf thickets, do we? So, so, like, it, you know, since it gets this kind of spinach flavor, is there a way to, that you
+
+[11:08] know, like, like, cook spinach to, like, keep it, hit me fresh, but still take on something
+
+[11:13] cooked? I've tried. I've tried the kind of, like, you know, go to raw foodist thing where you, like, put a little oil and salt and massage
+
+[11:23] it and, like, uh, that's, there's, there's good, but there's still, there's still too much structure to really, like, uh,
+
+[11:31] drain it out. Yeah, so those raw food things are based on a couple of different ideas and that is, they're basically to destroy structure without heat, but it's not the same kind of structure destruction you get from
+
+[11:43] cooking. It's more akin to forced wilting. It's basically all those raw food cooked vegetable things are basically forced wilting and shifting of osmotic pressure is how they work.
+
+[11:52] But when you're cooking something, you're actually cooking and breaking down, you know, the pectins and all of those things. So it's actually a different thing. And I wouldn't think that you can get around the change in
+
+[12:07] flavor. But what you could do, if you if you like the cooked spinach flavor, in addition to the fresh flavor, you can do what I always do for blueberry things, which is like mix some fresh back with the
+
+[12:19] cooked. Do you know what I mean? So like whenever I'm working with blueberries, like blueberry pies and blueberry tarts, I'll have my cooked blueberry
+
+[12:27] component, and then I'll also always put fresh blueberries back in because I really like the brightness of a fresh
+
+[12:32] blueberry. But I also like the texture of the cooked blueberry goop in a pie, let's say. So you might be able to augment it. You know, do you think that would work or no? Probably. Maybe, because that, it's like, that's the thing is when you strain it out, then I feel like probably going to be strain out all the fish stuff as well. I don't know. I think you're gonna get some of it in there. I think I think you should try. Another thing you could try to do is try to get some of the, like the hibiscus, although it's red, bright red, you know, like that, like, and then make a tea of that because even though it's dried and then heated in tea, it's pretty
+
+[13:02] bright and then you could mix some of that mixture back in and get some of that brightness back. Okay. And so what, you know, what kind of things lead to these, more
+
+[13:14] like, I don't know. In green, vegetables, or, you know, how, like, uh, in spinach and basil, when they, when you keep them and they get kind of dark, you know, they, are they
+
+[13:26] oxidizing, or like, what's going on, that really changes their flavor? Uh, I don't really know what the change in flavor is ascribed to, although I will remember to ask McGee that, but most of those green things, if you remove their characteristic top notes and aromatics have a very similar
+
+[13:41] cooked spinach smell. So when you when you do rotary evaporation on basil, and you blend it. And then after everything is sucked off, you get this kind of cooked spinach smell. And that is, that is something that McGee knows exactly what it
+
+[13:54] is, and it's a couple of compounds that I should remember, but I can't, I can't, for the life of me, remember what they are, but a couple of compounds that give that specific smell, and all those green things have it in it. I'm going to try to remember. And the next time, for next time I'll try and I'll try and bust back on what it is. So it's probably not something just coming from being oxidized that you could get around by doing it under vacuum or having some kind of shielding
+
+[14:18] gas. Well, the browning is caused usually, I mean, by if it's turning dark, there's a bunch of things going on. There's enzymatic browning, so if you cook it quickly enough. If you blanch it whole without breaking it, you should be able to keep some of the green
+
+[14:30] color, then there's, you know, then there's other things like the chlorophyll can get eventually broken down, cooking
+
+[14:36] long time, then it's going to go olive drab. So there's a bunch of different color kind of changes that can happen. Um, when you're doing it. I have to look specifically at what you have to kind of see what's going on. But I wish I can remember what the flavor thing was. We'll have to ask, nostalgia, you're going to remind me to ask McGee next time, yes. Yeah, you're not going to remind me. You're not even writing it down. You're just forgetting it as we speak. All right, now she's now she's using her texting for good. Thank you. All right. So, uh, hold on a second. I got to go back to for a 2nd to Steve, because Steve had his question about pressure cooking, right? And so he then says this thing about salt. Steve also has a question, he says, I have a question about salt and bitterness. What is happening to the bitter flavor when you add salt to a grapefruit, for example? Is it blocking the bitterness or destroying compounds? And then he has an experiment basically he does with tonic water, adding salt to tonic water, remove the bitterness, or change the bitterness, and then freshening up coffee, i.e. the bitterness by adding a pinch of salt, but would love to know exactly what's
+
+[15:33] happening. Well, Steve, I don't know that it's known for certain. There are some papers that have been written about it. The one that I read was the influence of sodium salts on binary mixtures of bitter tasting compounds by
+
+[15:44] Keast, 2004. Um, and they seem to indicate he, he, she, they seem to indicate that, um, that salt is actually acting, uh, the, basically the ionic strength of salt
+
+[15:55] is, the, you know, the fact that it's charged is acting on, at the site of your bitter receptors and altering how you perceive bitter, literally altering how your taste buds perceive
+
+[16:05] bitterness. And the argument, one of the arguments there is a study that was done a while ago where they put, if
+
+[16:11] they, if you mix salt and bitter together and put it on your tongue, it is less bitter
+
+[16:15] than if, and then if you just add bitterness, right? But if you add bitterness to one side of your tongue and salt to the other, you
+
+[16:21] could still taste the bitterness, basically, and the thing they're showing is that you need to actually have the salt at the site where the bitter is being received.
+
+[16:28] That argument, I don't think, is actually true because I don't know that your tongue can't distinguish, like, a pattern of excitation. In other words, like if salt and bitterness are in the same area, it could modify, even if it's not actually modifying your bitter
+
+[16:42] receptor. But these guys have an interesting study where they say they tested a bunch of different bitter compounds. And many of them were debittered slightly by
+
+[16:52] salt and mixtures of them were debittered by salt, but there's a couple of bitter compounds, one in
+
+[16:57] particular, they can't remember the name of, they checked, that salt did not affect. And so because salt was able to affect certain bitter compounds and not others, They're saying that it is not a cognitive, i.e. like a brain integration effect on salt modifying bitterness. Rather, it is a modification of how the bitter molecules are being perceived at the taste
+
+[17:17] receptor sites. I still don't think that this is necessarily like slam dunk as an argument of what's going on because it could be that
+
+[17:25] certain bitter receptors are more apt to be cognitively interpreted along with salt as being less bitter as opposed to
+
+[17:34] others, but I don't know. I haven't really read it thoroughly, but these guys seem to say that the salt is actually modifying the way your taste receptors taste of bitterness, but I'm willing to hear arguments from
+
+[17:46] other people. Yeah? All right, with that say, why don't we go to our 1st commercial break? This is the way we lay it down on the L Tray. But yeah, help me out now. Yeah, yeah. Hey, yo, black I need up, I mean, immediately, right away. Every single day, I swear, I'm gonna find a better way, my enemies are destiny. This the meat and grilling me. Yesterday, they're calling me and beat me down with me. I was like, I missed the negativity. It's hard when you pack it. That was hard attacking. No time for money. No time for hiding. Now I got my crew where we about to end. Shake the cops, let's go get these, all you all down. Do nobody better. Sometimes I am a player. Because I am a fool. No energy to button, but I gotta have. Lazarus, he was the man who died through the power of faith. Open up your eyes and spy. Lazarus better yet. Open up your hall, y'all imagination. on the train Riding on the train I don't got no problems. No more, no more, no riding on a train. gonna train out reach my estimation show Even truly immediately, you're not away. Yeah, shootsy groove. Shoots a groove, much like the actual L train taking forever to get to the destination. Get to the Dan Chorus guys. Seriously. Seriously. Of course they would like the L-train anyways. Uh, Ian. Oh, by the way, in case you weren't there before, call in your live questions too. 718-4972128. That 718-497-2128. All right, now, Ian writes in with a question on vacuumed fish. Dear Dave, I'm curious about using sous vide for raw fish portions for storage. I've heard this is not a good idea. I don't know from whom, but we'll talk about that in a minute. And in practice, I found that fish can develop all flavor after a few days. I'm sure it has a lot to do with freshness of the fish before packaging. I bought fish from Japan that has been packed in plastic and it was impeccable, but it has probably been packed immediately after it was killed and prepped.
+
+[19:49] Just wondering if you have any specific information on storing fish, sous vide, do's and don'ts, and Ian enjoys the program. Thank you. And another question came in that I'm going to just smack these together because they're very similar. John writes in also that that fish. And he says, hello, I have a quick question I'd like to pitch for tomorrow's show. I recently purchased an immersion circulator. Good call. And this weekend, I would like to cook a couple of monkfish loins. I don't have a cryovac, and I haven't tried this before, but from what I've heard, monkfish is good fish for low temperature cooking. My plan is to wrap the fish in plastic and then pop it into Ziploc bags. Am I at a significant disadvantage versus vacuum sealing here? And I was hoping to get a suggestion for an appropriate time and temperature. Thanks so much. Okay, I'm going to start with John. No, John, you are not at a disadvantage. In fact, in some ways you're at an advantage. I find that in tests I've run where we vacuum fish, if you put too much of a vacuum on
+
+[20:43] fish, you can affect the texture. So I really like fish cooked, either wrapped in plastic or just directly in ziploc bags with oil. I presume you're wrapping it to preserve the shape of it, and then putting it, if you wrap it in plastic wrap, a couple layers of plastic
+
+[20:57] wrap, and you can go on www.cookingissues.com, low temperature
+
+[21:02] primer and check the ways of packing without a vacuum machine, and you can see a rolling technique, you don't need the ziploc at all, actually. You can cook it directly in a plastic wrap. And that's a great technique or cooking in a Ziploc is a good technique. So in some ways, I think you're at an advantage for that, because you're not going to destroy the texture by over vacuuming it. As for times and temperatures, they're kind of all over the
+
+[21:24] map. I haven't personally cooked monkfish, so I can't tell you, but I, you know, like the
+
+[21:29] one Roka style technique, which is also, I think, put out by some other people, is they use a 60 degree Celsius, which is
+
+[21:35] 140 degree water bath. Uh, for um, uh, for about 12 to 15 minutes. And this is Delta T temperature. They're not trying to cook it all the way through to that temperature. They're shooting apparently for a core temperature of about 48 degrees Celsius, which is pretty low. Another person cooks at about 57 degrees Celsius, which is about 135 for 30 minutes. That's not Delta T and that's significantly higher. That's what I do, like, striped bass at. So that's like a really firm tasting. And then another person really enjoyed 48 degrees C for one hour, which seems to me not the way I would go. Like, I don't think I would like it quite that low, the monkfish. I think I'd probably like it higher, closer in the 50s, but I could be I could be wrong. And I wouldn't necessarily cook monkfish for a full hour just because I think it might start breaking down. I don't know what the enzymes are like, but a lot of fish have enzymes in
+
+[22:26] them that break them down if you cook them for too long and make them mushy. Another note is that one of the reasons temperatures for fish can be so all over the map is a lot of fish go through basically 2 zones where they taste good. A very low temperature range where, you know, it's kind of fudgy and almost translucent, uh, and uh, like Juan
+
+[22:44] Roke and a lot of like, you know, new school people like that, but a lot of people hate those fish, uh, cook that way.
+
+[22:49] And another one slightly higher, usually 50 for salmon, it's like 50 Celsius, right there, salmon, ping, 50. That's more traditional taste, and a lot of people like that. So it can be kind of confusing. But, uh, I would, if I had to do it and I only had one shot, I would probably do the 60 degree Celsius for about 15 minutes. Obviously, it depends on how big around
+
+[23:08] the, uh, the thing is small. That's probably for a fairly thin portion. Okay. Back to the question of fish in a vacuum bag. Very interesting. I looked up an article this morning, modified atmosphere packaging of filleted rainbow trout by Begonia Jimenez in 2002 out of Brazil. And basically, the story is, is that the big flaw of her test, by the way, I'm assuming, begonia, woman, right? I hope. Yeah. But going you with an Enya, by the way. Yeah, be going, yeah. Anyway, slightly flawed because she doesn't give her vacuum procedure. She just says what equipment she vacuumed it with, and all of you out there should know that how you apply the vacuum is vitally important
+
+[23:53] to A, the texture of the fish, but also how much oxygen you remove. But basically saying that, um, Indeed, there is spoilage in the vacuum bag. There's microbial growth, even of aerobic stuff due to residual oxygen left in it. Uh, you know, you you don't, I'll read you exactly what they said about the sensory equality of different fish. She did overwrapped, that's French for plastic wrap, I guess, Portuguese for plastic wrapping, vacuum packaging, and map, modified atmosphere packaging, where they actually introduce things like CO2 that actually prevent bacteria from
+
+[24:24] growing rather than just removing their oxygen supply. Okay, although the vacuum packaging kept, this is their sensory panel. Although vacuum packaging kept lower levels of T bars. basically that's some BS acronym for oxidation because there's no oxidation because there's less
+
+[24:39] oxygen than modified atmosphere packaging. It gave rise to a faster loss of fresh fish flavor. a freaking tongue twister. Faster loss of fresh fish flavor intensity along with the deterioration of the visual aspect of the fillet. So basically her point is that, um, that you still lose some of the fresh flavor of fish if it's stored for a long time in vacuum
+
+[24:59] bags. But don't store fish for a long freaking time. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Like, what, like, all this good. What are we talking about? Get your fish. pack the fish, cook the fish, eat the fish. You know, I've always said that, you know, one of the problems people have is they try to get this extended shelf life and they're like, hey, can I buy the fish today and
+
+[25:18] then like, you know, cook it next year and still okay? No. No. No. I mean, you can get some extension of shelf life. It's true, but when you're shooting for maximum quality, don't do
+
+[25:30] it, don't do it. All right. Derek writes in with an interesting question that I'm just going to say right out hand. I don't know the answer too. Cookies and creaming. Hello, everyone. I have quick question. Most cookie recipes, when you cream the fat, usually butter, and sugar together. And that's, you know, for those of you that never creamed anything. I mean, I'm serving that most of our listeners have creamed something before, but, you know, you take your
+
+[25:51] KitchenAid branch stand mixer or anything, actually, whenever you want. And you beat the hard butter and the sugar together. A fork like my mom. You can't cream with a fork. How the heck you can't convince her otherwise. Look, the whole point is to beat air into it. You're beating air into it. How are you going to beat air into sugar and butter with a fork?
+
+[26:10] If anyone out there, please send me a video where you effectively cream butter and sugar with a fork.
+
+[26:17] I, like, you know that, you know the Impossibles that are the Incredibles, that kid dash, who's like the fastest kid in the world, like maybe he could do it, or like some sort of like bionic super person could effectively cream with a fork? No, yeah, I've met Ukrainians before. You cannot cream with a fork. You mean like something like biscuits maybe or pie crust? No, cookies. Infrigging insane. Insane. I'm just gonna go ahead and I'm gonna go on record and call that insane. Anyway, the whole point of that is to add air to your cookie. And then the reason that you add the eggs, Oh, oh, sorry. I didn't even finish the question yet. Uh, most cookie recipes where you cream the fat, usually butter, sugar together. The recipe then instructs you to add egg before the flour. I screwed up recently, I added the egg halfway through adding the flour. It did not seem to mess up my recipe. What's the deal? Okay. All right, Derek. The deal is you usually add the eggs, especially in things like cakes because the eggs can add additional leavening, additional air trapping while you're beating them in as opposed to the flour, which I guess they figure doesn't.
+
+[27:18] So it's the idea of generating all of your air bubbles early in the process. So 1st creaming to create volume, then adding eggs, usually one at a
+
+[27:27] time to increase the volume and the evenness of the mix to get a light, fluffy, aerated mixture before you add your
+
+[27:31] flour, and then bake it, right? Boom. That's the reason. Now, if, A, your recipe doesn't need a lot of extra aeration or, like, you know, want to narrated. You know what I mean? What? Like, I like cookie. you know, like, for instance, like, when I'm making a brownie, right? When I'm making a brownie, you get to choose the texture based on how you, how you do it, you can go from basically like dense, like fudge master general brownie by melting your butter all the way up to creaming and then beating your egg and then folding your
+
+[28:00] flour. You know, you can do a wide range of textures based on your creaming and or egg adding procedure. So I'm assuming that with your recipe. First of all, I don't think that when you add the egg is going to matter, like even like a speck, unless you're beating it enough after you add the egg to aerate it more.
+
+[28:18] Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense, nostache? You know what I'm saying? And also, I think adding the egg is going to help you incorporate the flour, but on something like a cookie where there's so little moisture
+
+[28:26] anyway. It's not like you're going to develop gluten, you can hit it hard enough to get all of the flour in to the recipe without developing gluten.
+
+[28:34] So I think it really is not going to matter much unless you want it for an aeration effect, which I don't think is going to be a big deal in many cookies. What do you think? I think you're right. All right. Score one for me. All right, now, question in from Eve. Uh, Eve uh, Burgazen, who, by the way, it was a co-student. What do you call it? Classmate of our former intern, Tim
+
+[28:57] Oogamuga. ugamuga. remember Uguma? Yeah. Yeah. We call them Aijima, like High Hachi. anyway, whatever. He, like, tall dude, looks kind of Amish, although he isn't, and, like, and, like, made fireworks. Really? Yeah, I saw him recently. Tim. Anyway. Hello, Tim, if you're listening. Uh, and eat. I'm a graduate of the SCI culinary arts program. I work in the pastry department, a craft restaurant. I have an idea and I'm wondering how to execute it. A cold torch. Is there a way to take a tank of liquid nitrogen, a small tank, so that it's portable like a blowtorch and figure out a way to project it into a small stream, much like a blowtorch? It'd be cool to create frozen shells around things. Do you have experience with something like this? Okay. I did not have experience, although there are people that do have experience. What you want to look up something called a brymil can, B-R-Y-M, I think, I-L-L, and they're used by dermatologist to freeze warts on people. It's a technique called like cryosurgery or anything like that. And it's basically, it looks like a little oil gun, but it's a little liquid nitrogen
+
+[29:56] canister, and you get different nozzles, and it sprays small amounts of liquid nitrogen into freeze small surface areas. A similar technique was used by the Arzacs, you know, Juan Marie Arzac and at all,
+
+[30:09] where they were basically freezing spots on plates so they would have a hot plate. They would freeze one spot on the plate and put like an ice cream on that and a hot thing on the rest of the plate so that
+
+[30:19] you could have a nice hot plate for your whatever. And then a cold section for your ice cream on like savory ice cream is plated out. They were also using it to inject into chocolate to make these like weird chocolate balloon shapes. If you want some serious chilling, though. These are like spot chillers. You're gonna want to get something called a snow horns, no horn. And what they are, basically, you hook them up to a CO2 tank, and they just spray out like
+
+[30:43] a fog of like hyper cold CO2, and that's used for kind of flash freezing
+
+[30:49] things. Look up snowhorn. I think they might be loud. I don't know. I don't have one. They're needing another expensive. We could get one. What do you think? Yeah. Weren't we going to use our liquid nitrogen to help people with their awards when we were in strapped for
+
+[31:01] cash? Or sperm bank or something? That was your idea. is always sitting there thinking, like, we got no money. You know, a friend of mine, a friend of mine had a medical procedure, and so he, and it was wiped out his, it wiped out his,
+
+[31:15] his sperm because it was bone marrow transplant. And so they had to save his sperm and liquid nitrogen. And he, like, me, has a problem with, like, you know, paying attention to things like bills. So they kept on sending him messages. We're gonna thaw out your sperm. We're gonna kill your your future offspring. If you don't pay. And he didn't pay. And he got the note like, like, he, like, he got a stack of them all at once. And he opened them and like the last one was like, all right, you know, this is it. We're gonna do it. And it's like, it was like dated like, you know, like saying that they were going to do it on a Friday and he read it on a Saturday. And he was like, so he ran
+
+[31:52] it in person on Monday and they, luckily, like hadn't thawed this stuff out. He paid his his back sperm storage fees and has 2 lovely children now. Anyway, Kevin from Virginia Beach writes in. I heard on this past week's show, that you and I, Nastasia, you and I, and McGee were having troubles riding in the rain. I've used right in the rain, and that's spelled RIT by
+
+[32:20] the RITE, right in the rain. Products pretty extensively, and I can vouch it. They work as advertised. As for getting your labels to stick to the wet fruit. Good luck. You know, Kevin, you're exactly right. I have right in the rain lab notebooks. I've been using them for a while. Wiley Dufrayne's been using him in the kitchen for a while. He actually gave me something. I think he got them before I did, and he likes to give them to his cooks and then throw them into stock pots to make fun of them because they don't get all messed up. They do make great products. And I actually had one, but it was packed in my freaking bag. It wasn't with me in the place and plus nostasia writes the notes and she refuses to carry a right in the rain product around. That's true. Why, how do you change it? You've never given it? I gave you like a whole stack. No,
+
+[33:01] no, okay, people out there, people out there listening. Here what happened. I have a stack of right in the rain stuff which are meant to be cooking notebooks for your kitchen, right?
+
+[33:10] And she's like, okay, can I write this, rip this paper out and use it a post-it note? I'm like, no, no, no. We have stacks of post-it notes. That's what happened. you know, who are you going to believe? Who are you gonna believe? Yeah, right, sure. All right. Maybe for people that haven't met the both of us, they would believe you on this. Jack, who do you believe? I'm not going to get him into it. going to get him into it. No comment. Yeah, no comment. I would beef with nastasia these days. All right. And then before I get to the related question, because Kevin wants to know, whether or not
+
+[33:43] there, we have any recommendations for must visit food enthusiast destination similar to the Fruit and Spice Park, Kevin, I'm going to get back to that. But Rolf Wind writes in, on the same question, and he
+
+[33:55] says, in the most recent issues, cooking issues radio broadcast, Dave ranted about the need for weatherproof fruit labeling technology, and he goes, I believe that this technology already exists. Small portable tattooing devices are used to label rodent tails and laboratory settings for animal identification sometimes just to make them look like badasses. The labels are essentially permanent, labeling is quick to perform. If 200 mice per hour can be achieved. Imagine the number of mangoes one could tattoo. True story, true story. And orchard friendly battery operated systems are available. Their fruit compatibility is suggested by the fact that thick skinned, even waxy fruits are often used as stand ins for animals during operator training. One of the many examples of this equipment can be found at animalid.com. Happy inking, keep up the good work. All right, all right. Well, and by the way, that was addressed to Dear Miss Hammer, which I enjoy. Anyway, Rolf, I love this suggestion, and you got me thinking about a bunch of different things here. The one that you pointed to is the ATS dash 3 general rodent tattoo system. The problem with it is, is it's about 3 grand and a, like, cursory view of eBay led me to believe that they're not widely available on the eBay.
+
+[35:01] Maybe I don't know how to how to... Anyway, like different combinations of rodents and tattoos other than tattoos of
+
+[35:09] rodents don't like show up so much on eBay. So I don't know whether or not I'm searching it wrong. But I did a quick search and you can buy a battery operated tattoo pen, right? You can spend as much as $150 or $200 on one that's professional, but they make one
+
+[35:25] called like rabbit it, rabbit it, rabbit it, something like that. Rabbit it, like a tattoo pen. It's battery operated, right? And it's got like some sort of like, you know, a lifetime guarantee. I haven't seen how waterproof it is, right? But it's just like, you know, you take a AAA battery, you put a little ink in it, take it out in the orchard and you could, I mean, I've
+
+[35:43] never, have you used a tattoo pan before? Yeah, I have friends who do this for a living. I should have asked them, like, use one, because you're supposed to practice on something like a banana. Right? So if we got an ink that didn't bleed too much into the fruit. I mean, I'm assuming they use, I think, like some version of like, you know, India ache or something, something nice black, you know, food grade. It's called human grade. Is that better or worse than food grade, human grade? don't know. Anyway, I'm assuming you can just sit there and write the name of the fruit out. What do you think? I'm gonna buy one. Rabbit it. It's only, I think it's like 40 bucks or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, Rolf, thank you so much for putting us on this correct line of thinking because I'm definitely not
+
+[36:20] going to spend $3000 to tattoo my fruit, but unless someone gives
+
+[36:25] you one. Yeah, if someone gives me like a $3000 fruit tattooing, I'm going to say yes. Then, you know, not going to turn that down. Um, right? Okay. Uh, now, uh, to finish this out, another thing we had last week uh, that was interesting was I spent a good number of minutes uh,
+
+[36:41] insulting uh, insulting uh, like science's ability to recreate meat via 3D printing technologies.
+
+[36:49] And literally the day after that, right? The day after that, uh, Nastasia and I had a meeting with uh, a person who helped uh, in the co-founding of a company
+
+[37:01] called um, Oregonovo, Oregonovo, right? Organovo. And what Oregonova does to give you some background is they can do things like grow blood vessels, whole blood
+
+[37:13] vessels, right? And so most of the meat printing technology, what they'll do is they build a scaffold of collagen and then let meat cells grow into that
+
+[37:21] scaffold. And that is, to me, as far as food preparation, gross. That's not going to make good food. You know what I mean? It's not going to make a good meat substitute. And that's basically what I was ranting against. And also, anyway, well, well, we'll get it before I fit, I'm going to start ranting again. So wait a minute. So these guys actually print undifferentiated or partially differentiated cells, get them to bind together, they differentiate, and they turn into actual organs like blood vessels that they can graft in if you need a coronary audio transplant, let's say,
+
+[37:51] right? And I was like, holy crap, I had no idea you could do this. Do you know they could do that? I was totally shocked. Crazy, crazy. can do this. They also make human meat, tissue, not to eat, although they could. They make it because drug companies want human tissue to test out drugs on. And so it's very, it's, you know, much better than using mice tissue or pig tissue. And, you know, don't worry, no humans killed, blah, blah, blah. Anyway. And so he came to us and says, well, what do you think about the idea that we could print meat? And he's like, I can print out actual muscles in, like, shape and the way the muscles are made with fat marbling and all
+
+[38:30] that. I have my doubts as to whether it's possible, but if it's possible, it's clearly the closest that anyone has ever even attempted to get to actually print out something that I would consider food. Because as I said last week, most meat substitutes, it's all
+
+[38:45] about like reproducing some sort of overcooked, horrible, like monotextural pablum crap. You know what I mean? But these guys are saying they can actually do it and then, you know, and without killing the animals. So you could, you know, if they could get, I'm still, I don't understand scientifically how
+
+[39:03] that they would do things like correct for what the animal ate or the different enzyme makeup that is in a cell based on how long it's been in the
+
+[39:12] animal because, I think I said, like, let's say you're using a pig to make ham. Older pigs have better, have better enzyme makeups for making ham. In other words, the muscle breaks down differently. So a ham from an older pig, not just because of fat content or because myoglobin or any of those things, but simply because of the fact that it's
+
+[39:31] older is going to make a different ham than a younger, younger pig. So I don't know how they're gonna, you know, do things like that. Meat is some complicated business. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know whether that's actually possible to correct for it, but if they could, then, you know, we could all have manatee steaks. You know, one of my goals is to have a cruelty-free manatee steak because I told you about this, right? Yeah, because manatee, right. I'm not advocating hurting manatees, please, please do not say that I'm advocating hurting manatees. I not. in his book, The Unnatural History of the Sea, the author, whose name I forget, basically says that we've actually been making animals go extinct for a long, long time.
+
+[40:07] It hasn't been, you know, just recently. Uh, and one of his favorite examples is this thing called Stellar Sea Cow, which was uh, named after an explorer, Stellar, and it
+
+[40:16] basically these sea cows are manatees, you know, manatee relatives. And so there's this island in the Pacific, where these manatees were just sitting eating kelp, right? kelp, you know, kelp forest. So there's cows like grazing on kelp under the ocean and they're sitting there. And it's like, you know, in a lagoon. So, like, you can basically look down and see them, and here's the messed up thing, right? No natural enemies. For some reason, this like ecological niche had developed. And I believe this is like 16 or 1700s is when this was happening. I can't remember exactly. And so here it is, these things, sitting there, herbivores, right? In herds under the water, right? Fresh and no enemies. And here it had one downfall. They were delicious, delicious. So people said that that nothing tasted as good, you know, well, I don't know, because they're on a ship and they've been eating salt and meat for, you know, months.
+
+[41:07] So who knows? You know what I mean? It kind of like when raw food people say something's delicious and they've only had raw food for a week. So if it doesn't taste like literally awful, it's awesome. You know what I mean? So it's hard to tell. But these guys were basically saying that these were the best animals in the world because they had no predators, you would like harpoon
+
+[41:22] one and then like the guy next to him would be like, what was that? Because they're not used to getting killed. And so they didn't even run away. So you could sit there and like, you know, kind of butcher them at will, which is awful, awful. Anyway, so it's one of the, it was made extinct in a, you know, matter of a few short decades because it was delicious. But ever since that, of course, because I'm perverse, my idea is, man, I wonder what those things tasted like. So these guys, these guys can get you the cruelty-free manatee steak cooking issues.
+
+[41:57] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner And I don't know where I'm at. Figure on the pulse and city winery, our proud present, the summer barbecue blowout, festival. August 6th from noon to 4 p.m. The barbecue is happening at City Winery, located at 155 Barrack Street in New York City. Restaurants featured at this event are Empire Mayonnaise, Van Dag, Momofuco Mofar, Imperial No. 9, Myeland, Mexico, Craft, Dizzy's Club, Coca-Cola, the Meatball Shop, and
+
+[42:41] Dose Toros. Providing the soundtrack for the day are Midnight Magic, Pewter Magic, New Villager, Punches, Ducky, DJ Autobot, and the Snacky Tune DJ. VIP and general admission tickets are available at citywinery.com. Finger the pole for city one. We like to thank our sponsors, Heritage Troods USA. New York magazine, Break of Vodka, Sonar, Smile, Guilt City,
+
+[43:05] Subzero and Wolf. Please come out and join us for a day of fun, food, and dancing. For more information, go to www.fotnyc.com.
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+[0:00] If you're a therapist listening, you already know your work doesn't magically end when the session does. There's scheduling, notes, billing, insurance follow-ups, all of the admin that happens
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+[0:09] before and after the work you actually care about. That's where simple practice comes in. Simple practice is an all in one EHR built specifically for therapists, with HIPAA compliant tools and high trust certification, no juggling
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+[0:32] reminders, it all lives in one place. And if you're starting or growing a practice, simple practice also offers a credentialing service that helps simplify insurance enrollment, which can be a huge lift
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+
+[1:05] You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com. bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes store. The following message has been brought to you by Fairway Market. What's the buzz about honey? Well, those busy little bees are up to something, and it is delicious. The fairway label, honey, is superb. Fairway only hires worker bees that are the best at what they do. This makes for a great tasting, high quality honey at an amazing value with the fairway stamp of approval. And on top of being delicious, honey is a great substitute for other sweeteners and can even benefit your health. This includes better energy, respiratory improvements, and balance blood sugar levels. It's a no-brainer, get your fairway honey today.
+
+[2:05] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, those are cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, joined, as always, in the studio with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. Call all of your cooking or non-cooking related. will take anything, right? Do you have any subjects you want them to talk about today? No. No, no random questions you want? No? No? What stores maybe Nastasia likes to shop in, things like this? In return things to you? Hey, I wasn't going to bring it up. No, we're not going. I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna go there. if anyone wants to call in and go there, please go there. Call in all of your questions too. 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. I still haven't memorized that thing. You know, Nastasia? I still have to have you write it out. every single time. I know. And if you're not here, I have to have Jack saying on the air. Good stuff, huh? Jack, I think we're gonna leave the brake music in your hands today. pick some good stuff. He seems to be coming up with some good stuff, right? I'm on a roll. Oh, he is. He totally is. What was the one you came up with last time? It was really good? Oh, the L Train song? Yeah, because Nastasia was Nastasia was the late one last last week. Usually on the late one. Well, good news actually, you beat Nastasia here again today. I know, it's because we're reversing roles. How awful would that be? Oh my god. Anyway, glad to say that cooking issues, the blog is back on a roll with
+
+[3:24] a, we finally got the fruit post out. It looks good. It's good, right? Now all I have to do is write the 2nd part of the fruit post, the centrifuge post, the lime juice post, the... how many... the sous vide
+
+[3:36] intens? Sous vide primer post, the, how many other posts do I have that have not yet written? Wow, the knots. That's from like years ago. I had posts from like years ago I haven't written. Not only that, before we get onto the actual topics of the day. Oh, Nastasia says, why am I sweating profusely? Oh, wipe my face. Yes, well, I biked here in the beautiful Brooklyn weather today, which is, it's like it's raining up from the ground. It's like the ground is raining up into the sky. That's how humid it is. And what's awesome about biking in that kind of weather. And what's really hot is your body can't cool it off. It's awesome. But I am, I am, I'm collecting all of my sweat in a pool here on the floor, and then we can make a small swimming pool out of it. Hopefully I don't jack short out all of your equipment. Anyways, what were we talking about before that? Post, you have to write the blogs back. Oh, I have a, not that I have time for this because I don't, but I have a new, I have a new blog that I'm also not
+
+[4:33] going to update. I bought, I ain't messing around.com. Yeah, what else? Uh, I ain't around.com. I bought that too, although that one's not safe for work. But so, like, I had this idea that the problem with cooking issues, right? Many problems with cooking issues, but one of the problems with cooking issues is, is that I can't seem to do anything short and I have to spend like 15 hours of research every time I even write 3 words because I'm a
+
+[4:58] jerk. An idiot. You know what I mean? Like, my sister-in-law, Miley Carpenter, who's married to my, so my wife's sister, Miley. wife is also a badass. Miley runs the Food Network magazine. I mean, she doesn't mean, she's the editor-in-chief. She started it, she founded it. Total badass. Uh, you know, anyways, she's married to Wiley Dufresne, so it's pretty hardcore, hardcore family, I got. Miley has always been able to just research what she needs to know and write a great article. Why can't we all be like Miley? I guess if we were all like Miley, we'd all be extremely successful journalists and editors. I guess that's why we're not like Miley. Anyway, so the whole point of this new thing was, is that it wouldn't be food related and I could write anything I want. For instance, how much I want you to wear your damn helmet when you're biking across the Williamsburg
+
+[5:40] Bridge or how you should keep your hands on the handlebars when you're biking in the street. There's lots of pedestrians walking around, things like that, right? Have you seen the jerk going across the Williamsburg Bridge on his fixed gear bike and he takes his feet off the freaking pedals when he's going downhill? does he put them? He puts him on the top tube. Frozen, you don't know what a fixed gear bike is. It's a bike where the pedals are actually linked to the gear, such that every time the wheel moves, the pedal moves. no free wheeling. no coasting. And so the idea is you're supposed to stay in touch with the road because your feet keep moving and this guy's like, hey, I'm too lazy. And I want to go faster down the bridge. I'm going to take my feet off the pedals. Moron. There are people walking down that thing, even on the bike side with baby carriages. Now they're morons too. But, I mean, seriously. Anyway, so that's the kind of stuff you have to look forward to. The guy with the fixed gear probably ends up here. Little Roberta's hipster joke for you. Anyway, so hey, no offense to the fixies out there. I ride a fixed gear bike, but I keep my feet on the pedals and I have both brakes, all right? Because I'm not in it for the 1st of all, I have the least sexy bike on Earth. Anyway, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. We're going to run out of time if I don't. Oh, one more thing. Next week is the year. Yeah. Next week. Nathan Mirville live on Cooking Issues Radio. You're going to call in your questions for Nathan Mirvold. Have what? that you? Oh my god. You know what happens, folks? 1st and last time you'll hear my telephone go off during the broadcast. The deal is my kids turn up, play Angry Birds on my iPad, iPhone, and they turn the sound back on. I apologize for that 7 minute rant. of nothing. But, uh, I would hope you would call on your questions right now to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. But if not, at least call in, make me look good for Mirvold. Will you, people? Will you call in? And those free giveaways. Oh yeah, free giveaways. Like maybe, I don't know, like a modernist cuisine, apron that's signed by those guys. What else are we giving? Give me? Maybe the book? No. Nistachia says maybe the books, so what they're going to call in. Listen, please don't get your hopes up. This is what I love about Nastasia and hate, is that she'll sit here and lie. It's not really a lie. It's her hope, but it's just not going to happen, but she has this way in her head of turning hope, trying to turn hope into reality. Yes. Like when we got Merle Haggard to skull. She's like, well, we want him to school, maybe he will. And he did, but in this case, I don't think so. You know, I think the modernist... If Jesus came down and said, Nathan, can I have a free copy of the book, Nathan would
+
+[8:06] say, you're Jesus, you can afford it. Am I right about this? We have an autographed apron here. We have the autographed apron. be awesome. By the way, that's not a slight to Mirvold. Did that seem like a slight to miracle? not a slight. just the way I talk. When I'm not in the air. Probably I'll go back to my professional tone. All right. Talk so long that my iPad shut off. Okay. Ben Bennett writes in, says, why not twist tie something to the fruit? We're talking about the tattooing fruit from last week and the week before. It was, I believe his name. I forget, Rolf Wind, I think, was the person who, uh, Rolf, right? Wind, who came in. And I try to Google him. I think he's a like a pharmacy, like a pharmacy researcher and a cyclist, an avid cyclist. I bet he wears a helmet. Anyway, um, I was told in the Netherlands they don't wear helmets. And I was like, it's because their bikes weigh £8000 and they do 2 miles an hour on those flat roads. No, we're at the car more than the car. Yeah, I mean, it's like anyway, whatever. Okay, instead of using a tattoo gun, which is what Rolf said, I would get a bunch of plastic twist ties, twist, twist ties, and a bunch of colors, write numbers down on them with a sharp, but before you go out in the field, and then tag a fruit with a
+
+[9:11] number twist tie, and then that way you can keep track of what's going on with my right and the rein notebook, which we all agree right in the
+
+[9:17] rein, notebooks are good things. I have one in my bag right now. I'll do the same thing with prenumbered plastic bags. That's a good idea, like ziplocs or whatever. rather than twist eyes. All right, seems less complex than a tattoo gun, but less cool. Definitely less cool. I've tried various things like bags and whatnot. Here's what happens. Whenever you're out in the field, everything turns to crap. This is what I've noticed. Like you're out there, you're tasting things, you're sticky, you have fruit paste all over you because
+
+[9:43] nastasia's blown some sort of nasty fruit out of her mouth and she hasn't looked where she's spitting and it gets all over your
+
+[9:48] shirt. You know, juices are dripping down your hands. like it's raining. There's bugs everywhere, and you're trying to get the fruit into your bag. This is true, right? This is how it works. And so, you know, we tried many things. The last time, uh, and you'll see the post, you know, the mango thing, you know, should I ever write it, uh,
+
+[10:05] that comes up is that the one thing that ended up working at the end was literally carving the name of the fruit into the fruit with a pen knife, which is a pain in the
+
+[10:13] butt, uh, But I'll tell you this. We will try these various things because how are you going to get the twist tie to stay around the fruit? Depends on the fruit. I thought about that. Depends on the fruit. It has a stem or something. I mean, you can shuffling through the fruit, but then it's going to damage it. Anyway, listen to this. Ben and Rolf. I purchased a rabbit tattoo gun called the EasyTat. There's a competitor, I think, made by the same company called Rabbitat. And I purchased one for 50 bucks, and it's a little tattoo gun, and it works. I just I got it last night. I tried it this morning on some lemons. I have to try some other fruits on lemons. It's really hard to see the tattoo without ink. And I think filling up with ink as a pain in the butt, what you can do is is tattoo it and then like rub an ink stamp over it real quick and rub it and the tattoo
+
+[10:58] stays in. I'm trying to think of real simple, real waterproof. I don't want to have to carry a liquid ink with me because that's not going to work. I have a feeling on more delicate fruits like mangoes or fruits that oxidize, like apples, that I'll be able to read it fine without ink. The lemon, if you let it sit around for a while and the skin starts drying off and you hold a shine of light on it, you can see where the tattoo was even without ink. So I am working on it, but I think for 50 bucks, I'm going to Columbia soon, and I hope to pick up some crazy fruits in the markets at Columbia. I'm going to carry my easy tat on the trip with me and see whether or not I can label some
+
+[11:30] fruit. So we'll get some real world test of this and we'll see if we can get a good test for fruit heads in, right?
+
+[11:36] What do you think? On a similar note, there is, I'm trying to find it because I'm a moron, hold a second. Joshua Rosenwasser just moved from Tampa, Florida to Antigua, and he wants to know whether there's any kind of wild edibles. He can forage for down there in Antigua. Well, uh, well, Joshua. Here's the one problem. I've never been to the Caribbean in my whole life. And one of the reasons is, is because I think I mentioned several times, I hate paradise. I hate it. Like, you know, like really nice beaches and sun. It's horrible, horrible. But I'm sure if you go out into the forest, It's gonna be, you know, or the, you know, whatever they have there, it's gonna be nice. I did some preliminary research for you, and there's one of the problems is, is that Antigua appears to be one of the driest of those islands. So even though they have some tropical fruits growing on those islands, they tend to import a lot of them from kind of
+
+[12:32] wetter neighbors where they have a wider range of stuff that they can grow. So I wish I could be more of help. But I remember that a couple weeks ago, somebody asked a question, I answered the 1st half of the
+
+[12:42] question and then spun off into a tangent. And their question was very rightly. So where other places that you can go forage, not forage, would go to taste things other than the fruit and spice park. Well, I forget who asked it, but I'm glad you asked, and I'm going to lump it in with the question here. I'll just tell you 1st the places that I've already gone, some with most with Nastasia, went to Geneva, the Geneva, New York, the
+
+[13:08] Agricultural Extension, Geneva, York, which is an extension of Cornell, but it's also linked up with the federal government that has all of the largest collection of apples in the world. It also has a decent collection of other
+
+[13:21] things like grapes and whatnot. And it's fairly easy to get in there and run rampant like a lunatic, like pretty easy, right? Another one that Nastasia and I went to that we blogged about was the Brogdale collection. It's the, it's in Kent, in Faversham, and it is amazing. It has the largest culinary Apple collection, as opposed to just Apple collection, has a huge collection of pairs, has a huge collection of currents and other small fruits, has an amazing selection of cherries, also of plums, and I
+
+[13:54] believe filberts, filbert nuts, and a smattering of other things. And it's also that one is open to the public. You just go, they don't want you to go in there and take the fruit off the trees, I think, for insurance reasons, but just do it anyway. Just go steal all the fruits anyway. That's where I would go. Uh, then, uh, if you're friends with a guy named Gene Lester in, um,
+
+[14:13] in California in Watsonville. the best citrus collection we've ever been to. You can, if you join the California fruit explorers, I think is the name of it, or California rare fruits, one of those, if you join them, you get invited to the yearly thing at Gene Lester's
+
+[14:27] ranch, and you can eat as much as you want there. I want to go to Corvallis, which is in Portland, and that's where our collection of pears and berries is, apparently one of the greatest collection of pears and berries in the world. I wanna go there. There's a couple of places. I know Nastasia wants to go. There a couple of great botanical gardens, I think, in Ukraine, right? Kiev, I want to go to. Uh, you know, I want to go to Kazakhstan, where it's natural. Where else am I forgetting? tons of places. I wanna go. Anyway, if any of you guys can take us some good places that we haven't gone, I want to go. I want to go to the New York Botanical Garden, which I go to all the time, they have one of the world's largest collection of alliums, onions and garlic. Can you eat them? I doubt you can eat them. Well, you take them and you cook them. I mean, you wouldn't eat them raw. No, no, no, but they let you take them. I don't know. you know, you got to get the right. it's all about getting the right person on the phone. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's just if you get the right person on the phone, everything's good. If you get the wrong person on the phone, life is terrible. Anyway, uh, 2nd part of uh, 2nd part of Joshua's question was, uh, they have a lot of uh,
+
+[15:27] Kalalu. a big recipe, you know, slash green down in the Caribbean, which
+
+[15:31] are the tops of tarot plants, but also known locally as spinach and is abundant and cheap. Are there any recipes besides a standard long simmer with thyme and onions? You know, look, I don't have a lot of experience with it, but it's not only tarot they use for that, that you
+
+[15:45] can use like a bunch of different greens. And basically, I wish I could help you here, but I want someone else to call in and give us some good recipes. Basically, it's just greens simmered for a whole hell of a long time with usually with some sort of allium and
+
+[15:57] spices, and then either blended to make a smooth soup. You can also add some salt, pork or bacon or whatever, or seafood or crab. Or you can keep it like a stew and keep it chunky. I mean, I think anything that you could do with greens with a soup, you could do with that or with like nettle, because the thing with, if you do use tarot leaves, which is, you know, dashin. If you use that, you need to cook it because it's otherwise
+
+[16:18] toxic, which leads me to another awesome toxic plant, which is 1st... I forget who told me about it. Crap. Anyway, called Mayan spinach. We saw that in the fruit and spice park in the poisonous plant section. It has it'll kill you. cyanide poisoning, if you eat it raw, but if you cook it, It apparently is one of the most nutritious greens in the world. Chaya. Love to try it. We should have stole, like, you know what the problem is when we were down there, we had no kitchen. We couldn't cook anything. Yeah, we did? No, we, no, we didn't. after that day. Yeah, yeah, we did after the 1st day. So I should have stolen, I should have stolen a bunch of that stuff and cooked it. Dunce. I'm an idiot. Next time, next time. Well, you know, it was the thing was it was raining like cats and dogs. And we were doing that event with with Jeremiah Bullfrog at the from Gastropod down in Miami. So we were much more worried about what we were going to do for that event. Then what we were going to have for dinner that night, which is stupid. You should always worry about what you're gonna have for dinner that night. We got to get dinner. We cooked fish. We had an, yeah, we had okay dinner. I would say it was a great dinner. Remember, it took us 8 years to get the charcoal loop, because it was like, you know, the charcoal was basically like soaking wet.
+
+[17:20] Anyways, let's go to our first commercial break. Call in your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128, cooking issues.
+
+[17:34] Here I come. You can hide. On a mind.
+
+[17:46] Here I come. You can hide. Go love.
+
+[18:22] Hello, and welcome back to cooking issues, calling all other questions, too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Chris Gibb from Toronto, Canada. For some reason, I wrote Toronto, California on my on my iPad, but it's
+
+[18:38] not Toronto's not in California. It's in Canada. about fixing vacuum machines. Hey, Dave, I've come across a vac machine that isn't working properly, and I want to buy it cheaply and fix it. It runs through a cycle normally until it's about to release the vacuum. This is when it makes a loud noise and starts again from the beginning and just keeps going through this cycle until you turn it off. I was wondering if you had any ideas or if you think it's hopeless, any thoughts on this would be awesome. Thanks. Huh. That's an interesting problem. Um, It sounds like it's probably uh, fairly easy to fix, but, uh, the good thing is that the important part of a vacuum machine is the motor,
+
+[19:13] right? is the vacuum pump. That's expensive. So if it's a real vacuum machine. We're talking, by the way, folks, about a chamber vacuum machine, I assume, a professional vacuum
+
+[19:21] machine, and they start. The smallest ones start at like 1500, 2000 bucks. They go up to about 4 grand for ones you normally get in a restaurant, right? So they're not cheap, and if the pump is working and sucking a vacuum. If it's actually sucking a vacuum, right? You've won most of the battle, right? Here's what I would check out first. I can't tell exactly what's going on because it's not like a normal situation of troubleshooting
+
+[19:45] wise, it's not normal. I wouldn't expect it to do exactly that. I would expect it to make a loud noise and then not start again unless there's something weird going on. I wouldn't expect it to start again until it had evacuated. Here's what sounds like might be happening. There's a, when what happens in a vacuum machine is you close the lid, the vacuum cycle starts, it sucks out all the air.
+
+[20:06] After it sucks out the air and it's done sucking the vacuum, it stops sucking the vacuum, it puts the seal bar up and seals your bag, after which it lets the air back into the
+
+[20:17] machine, and or sometimes it has gas flush, right, which puts gas back in, right? Uh, and then, and then there you go. So any one of those things could be wrong. If it's sucking a vacuum, you know you're good, right? Then if it seals the bag, you know it at least makes it to that part in the cycle. It sounds if it's making a loud noise, either maybe it's trying to do a gas flush and it can't because the gas flush is plugged, if it has a gas flush. The other thing that could be going wrong is that the error release valve could be broken, right? In which case it's not releasing the air properly. Any one of those things could be going wrong. Assuming that it's not one of those things, and it's a problem with the electronics board. The electronics board is a lot harder to fix. You can get new electronics boards, but even if you have like minor electrical
+
+[21:00] skills and you don't want to actually fix the electronics, you can just hardwire the thing to basically turn it on and then press stop and just bypass all the circuitry and run all
+
+[21:09] the stuff manually, right? Because it's all basically just solenoid valves that you can run off the thing. So I would say either one of the solenoids that's venting the thing is broken or you have an electronics problem or you have a blockage in one of the lines. Any one of those things seems a lot easier than fixing the pump. What do you think, Nastasia? Yes, I think that's right. Because we have a machine that was given to Nastasia by Mark Ladner from Del Posto. That's really nice. And the pump starts up, the sucker doesn't start a vacuum, which means they need to rebuild the whole vacuum pump. Now that's a pain in the patoot, right? What did the guy say it was going to cost us? Like 250 labor? Yeah, no, you see, that's the thing. This is Nastasia hoping against hope. 250 to show up. It's 250 to hang his hat on the inside of our door, right? That's 250 bucks. Then another, like, whatever, an hour to sit there and go, yeah, that's broken. It's broken, right? And then here's the other one. Oh, I don't have those pots right now. I don't have those. No. I got to order those pots, right? And then another charge when he comes back with the parts, plus taking this thing apart, right? I mean, come on, we all know how this stuff goes. Anyway, no offense to the vacuum repair people out there. All right? I don't want to hear someone saying that Dave is prejudiced against backing machine repair people. That person is really efficient if they... Yeah, you know what maybe did? Maybe poop his pants, maybe, maybe. Old expression. Please don't ask. Okay. Hey, we got to thank you from Mike, who wrote in a couple weeks ago, we were talking about marshmallows. He was having problems with his marshmallow sticking and says that what we said on the air, actually helped him out. Yeah. Hey, right? Give me the rest. Jack Saffy. like a happy customer. We have at least one. have one person that we have helped. is finally worth it. Well, yeah, everything's finally worth it. Good, good. All right. Henry Schwartz writes in with some sous vide and low temperature questions. In case there's anyone who happened to just tune in, and was trying to tune into the wrong radio station, but listen to
+
+[23:00] us and doesn't know what low temperature cooking is, low temperature and sous vide is anytime. sous vide is anytime you have something packaged in a vacuum bag, right? No matter what temperature you use. can be boiling bag, could be, uh, could be low temperature, could just be in your refrigerator. That's sous vide. Low temperature is when you're, instead of using a high
+
+[23:18] temperature, like an oven, at like 300 degrees to cook something, you use something like a water bath that's almost exactly the same temperature you want to cook
+
+[23:25] to. So I want to cook a steak to 130 degrees Fahrenheit. I set my water bath to 130 degrees Fahrenheit and I usually cook inside of a bag plastic bag or something like that. That's low temperature cooking. So, here's what Harry Schwartz has to say. I'm an amateur cook who loves to try new techniques. I did a summer cooking camp for kids in the neighborhood, and the parents pitched in to buy me a sous vide supreme machine. Nice parents, good job. Home version of what you guys use. The Suviet Supreme is the one that doesn't circulate. It's basically a temperature controlled water bath. I think it's about 500 bucks. I've never used one. Someone suggested your site and listened to a few episodes on your radio show. I think it's great, but the more I listen and read up on sous vide, the more I confused I get. You're not alone, my friend. you are not alone. My question is, why is there such a great difference in suggested cooking times and temperatures for CV cooking? I wanted to do short ribs as my 1st Soviet experiment and saw recipes for 2 to 3 days of cooking. It didn't make sense, so I called one of my favorite restaurants in Philadelphia, LaCroix, and Chef Adam there suggested 130 degrees Fahrenheit for 8 hours, which worked perfectly.
+
+[24:23] I see you see, well, let's just start right there before we go on. The reason why there are different times and temperatures is because different people want different effects when they're cooking, okay? So, I know you said that it doesn't make sense that you're cooking something for 2 or 3 days. And in fact, when you're learning low temperature and sous vide. The hardest thing to wrap your head around, honestly, is that meat is not gonna overcook when you cook it for that long. I like Wiley Dufray in my current brother-in-law was the 1st person to tell me that years and years and years ago.
+
+[24:52] And I was like, you're cracked, you're crazy. There's no way you can cook a piece of meat for 3 days and not have it overcooked. Once you get over that hurdle, right? Then all of these recipes are going to start making sense to you. Okay? Recipes overcook in the traditional sense of becoming well done overcook because you're cooking at a higher temperature than you want to cook the meat to. So as you cook longer, the more and more overdone. get the more and more dry it's going to get because you're basically cooking all the water out of the meat,
+
+[25:21] right? That's not what happens, low temperature. When you're cooking low temperature or sous vide, low temperature. Um, you cook the meat to exactly the temperature you want it to cook to, and then it just stays there. The meat no longer overcooks in the sense if it doesn't squeeze all of its water out anymore, doesn't turn gray, doesn't have any of those traditional
+
+[25:41] overcooked things happen to it, right? It doesn't turn tough. What happens instead is you hold it at a particular level of doneness, and then over a long period of time, the connective tissue breaks down,
+
+[25:53] right? And it starts getting softer and more and more tender. Okay. So if you take a piece of meat that doesn't have very much connected tissue in it, let's say a tenderloin, right? And you cook it for a long time, it starts losing what little texture it
+
+[26:07] has and it turns mushy. When you have something like a short rib and you're cooking it to 130, which is like a hundred, which is like 55, I think, or 55 Celsius, something like that, which is pretty rare, right? It takes a long time, like 3 days to break down the connected tissue in that rib and have it get tender
+
+[26:25] again, right? If you started out with a fairly tender short rib that didn't have a lot of connective tissue, maybe after 8
+
+[26:30] hours, it's going to be okay. Usually the short ribs that I cook, if I'm going to cook them down at that temperature, like 55, like by 24 hours, it still has the texture of like a skirt steak, which I think is delicious.
+
+[26:42] And I think Carlo here at Roberta sells what he calls a short rib skirt steak or something like that. He does something like that, like 24 hours, at roughly 55, 57 degrees Celsius. which is 130 to 135 somewhere in that range, Fahrenheit. And so you can do that, right? So basically these long cooking times at different temperatures are because they're holding the meat at a certain level of doneness and then basically waiting for the texture to turn to what they
+
+[27:09] want. If you cook it too long, it goes to mush. If you don't cook it long enough, it's just not tender enough. Okay? And the higher the, and there's a range of temperatures that'll work. So a short rib, you can make a short rib that's rare, like 150, sorry, 55 Celsius, like 130 or so. Most people prefer it a little bit higher, like 60 degrees Celsius or so, which is 140, right? And even that 5 degrees more radically chops the cooking time down from 3 days to 2 days, right? 63 degrees Celsius, which is a little high for me, if you're going to do low temperature work. Now you're down to like a day, a little over a day. So basically it's getting a feeling for how the cooking times and the temperatures interact.
+
+[27:49] There's no right or wrong answer. There's a question of is it tender enough for you, okay? Is this making any sense, Nastasia? Okay. So the other question is, uh, I suggest I being me, uh, chicken breasts for 45 to 90 minutes, at 63 degrees Celsius, which is I do, and a sous vide cookbook cookbook, which came with the unit, suggests 2 hours, same 63
+
+[28:09] Celsius. Don't understand why there's a difference there. I just don't think it needs the full 2 hours. It definitely doesn't need the full 2 hours from a pasteurization standpoint. And I think that chicken breast, once it's done, doesn't get any better. I think it starts losing its texture. And so as soon as it's done, I like to pull it. I don't think it, it's not going to break down on you right away, but when we ran a test where we cooked the chicken breast for a long time and then ate it by itself with no sauce, with nothing added, no searing,
+
+[28:38] anything. Just what does the meat taste like? The meat didn't taste as good longer we cooked it on chicken breast. But, you know, if you're going to sauce it up or if you're going to serve it cold or any one of these things, I think it might not make as much of a difference, right? You know, so that's that's that. He has a 2nd question. So we're gonna, these are, these are great actual questions. By the way, at the end, he said, uh, he would appreciate a quick answer on these, um, if possible. He doesn't think these questions are interesting enough for the show. Uh, which I disagree. I think these are things people really want to know about low temperature and CVD cooking. And he says, besides, this is a good one. I'm a year behind in listening, so it might take a while to find the answer to my question. Well, listen up because, you know, the odds that I'll write the answer are roughly what? zero, right? They're basically zero. Um, okay. So the 2nd question is vacuuming liquids. Where do you find a vacuum machine that lets you add liquids? The one that came with the machine and the one I have at home don't work with liquids. You're right. I wouldn't even use a vacuum machine, frankly, I would bag everything in ziplocs. I find that the temp, you know, the texture is sometimes better. It's easier because you don't need to chill the items before you put them in. Most people, when they're vacuuming liquids in those bags. They have to freeze the liquids before they put them in the bags, which is a huge pain in the butt, and just, I never use it. I had a vacuum machine at home. I have an impulse sealer now, which I use to, uh, seal things like, you know, you know, potato chip bags and stuff like that, but I don't do, I don't use vacuum at
+
+[30:01] home at home. I use almost exclusively Ziploc. Now, you won't be able to do vacuum infusion techniques with that, but you can't really do that with one of those home units anyway. So I would just learn to seal and ziplocs. It's a lot faster and there's instructions for it on my, on the blog, and he says he downloaded the sous vide primer, such as it is. Don't get me started. I know I need to write more of it. But are there any cookbooks on Sous vide? You would recommend for the home cook. No, not really. Right? There's a Keller sous vide cookbook, but if you don't have a vacuum machine. I mean, I would get it. The pictures are pretty, but it doesn't explain a lot of the how and the why. Juan Roka's book, you know, sous vide cuisine is great, but it's $158 and it's all restaurant recipes.
+
+[30:39] I haven't read the recent installation of Doug Baldwin's SUV'd primer. I haven't, obviously, Victor Stanford has a book that I do not buy that book. I think his temperatures are all out of whack. And then if you have 500 bucks by the monitors cuisine cookbook, because that's got to have a lot of good stuff in it, but that's, you know, 500 bucks, right? But they might win it next week. Nistachi, will you not please do not tell people that they're going to win a copy of that book next week because then people are going to say, they
+
+[31:07] should. And we're like, no, Nastasia said that you might win a copy of the book. You're not going to win a copy of the book next week, but you're going to have a very rare opportunity to call in and personally ask
+
+[31:16] Nathan. What? and get an apron. and get an apron. All right, listen. I will give you another break calling all your questions, too. 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[32:56] The following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network. Tune in to the speakeasy, every Wednesday at 3 PM, where hosts Damon Volte will discuss cocktails, spirits, wine, beer, tea, coffee, and all things in the liquid
+
+[33:13] universe, with guests ranging from bartenders and brewers, alchemists and ambassadors,
+
+[33:18] roasters and regulars, and every expert and enthusiast in between. Learn from some of the world's leading experts in mixology, far history, distillation, and brewing about how we enjoy imbibing today. Again, that's every Wednesday at 3 p.m. on the Heritage radio network. Welcome back to Cookie Issues. Damon Bolty, one of our tall, thin bartending friends with a tall, thin identical twin. You think he ever has his identical twin going into the bar instead of him? No, they look pretty different. Really? I've seen mainly, they haven't really seen the identical twib so much. He makes delicious shrinks, though. We've never had his drinks at the at the bar. you? He's out here isn't he? Yeah, I think so. but we've never been. We've only had his drinks at events. I like Anastasia says out here for anything in Brooklyn. Yeah, well, you know, she's a she's a Manhattan chauvinist. You know what? I want to, please, can we get some angry hipsters calming in here and shouting Nastasia down? It's only neat. That's what I am. Anyway, yeah, Nastasia, Nastasia, and Hipsters, like, you know, don't get along so well. You know, she's like the anti-hipster machine, which is weird because she spends most of her time out here and spends most of her time with hipsters.
+
+[34:30] No I don't. That is not, oh, Jack. I could say horrible things right now. Wait, so all of a sudden that's a horrible. literally, like, literally, like, I could go into the restaurant, which is, I can look at it from here. And if I were to say this lady hates hipster, she would get a beat down. Because there's enough women hipsters in there, they can hit her. They'll give her a beat down for it. fair point. Yeah. All right. Got, oh, got an email question in during the show from Paul Peterson. And by the way, we won't bite. you can call live unless you said it didn't work when he called. Oh, is it work? No, it did not. Oh, calling didn't work? Am I reading the number one? 7184972128. Am I reading it wrong? Anyway, instead of uh, instead of using ink with my tattoo gun, he says, perhaps I could use a leaf off the tree and drive little particles of leaf into the
+
+[35:20] fruit. That's a genius idea. I like that a lot because you're always gonna have a leaf when you're picking fruit, right? Right? I'm gonna give that a try. I don't have any leaves, but I was rip a leaf off a tree outside, and I'll see whether I can shoot it into something like a lemon or I'll try to get some waxy leaves too, some thicker waxy leaves to see what's going on.
+
+[35:39] That's a very good idea because you always have a leaf. Oh, I know. No, he's saying tattoo the damn leaf. with the fruit? No, he's saying threw a leaf into the skin. Yeah, but also if we if we steal some of the fruit... It's all gonna get lost. Just imagine. See this, I love nastasia. She's like, you always got to keep someone around who thinks nothing's ever gonna work. Here's the weird thing about Nastasia, right? separate modernist. Yeah, like anything that somebody else is, she's like, oh, that's going to be terrible. It, not going to work. going to suck. And yet if she gets it in her head that she wants it, she believe it happened no matter what. Right? No, but imagine the leaf and the keeping it. Imagine the leaf. Oh my god, it's gonna come off, right? Crazy. Crazy. Anyway. So, uh, Chris writes in about uh, MSG. Hi, David Nastasia, apparently Nastasia hates the way I pronounce it. Even though we've been working together for... You can't say it like that. too weird. Yeah, okay. So now she wants me to say it the mispronounced way. anyway. I thought I was good as long as I didn't say Natasha. Yeah, yeah, basically. All right, okay. I was hoping you could help with a question. I have a recent customer. I had a recent customer questions about products we use that contain MSG. Monosodium glutamate. Taking a step further, I had a customer tell me that hydrolyzed protein and MSG are the same thing, and then if you have a sensitivity to one, then you have a sensitivity to both. Most of our bases have one or the other, as well as a few other products that we frequently use. Could you help me sort this out? Thanks, Chris. All right, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and probably get myself in trouble. But I would say, since you don't have a sensitivity to one, you don't have a sensitivity to the other,
+
+[37:14] boom! Boom! All right, here's the thing. Like, there's all sorts of products out there that have, look, MSG,
+
+[37:23] okay, let's just get this straight. I'm gonna get some angry callers in and, you know, eventually, or someone's gonna write it or someone's gonna say that, Dave, he's a jerk. Listen, listen, here's the thing. Glutamic acid is a an amino acid. You can't get around it, right? Okay? Now, the sodium salt of that is monosodium glutamate, right? Okay. It's also a neurotransmitter. You need it. Without glutamic acid, you die. You don't you don't live without it. You need it, right? You need to have it in your body, that is. But here's the other funny thing, right? Um, You make a crapload of it. You know what I mean? Like, you make more of it. And then convert it in your head and excrete it, then you're
+
+[38:11] gonna eat, right? Furthermore, if you can take, basically, we sense MSG is free amino acids,
+
+[38:20] right? And a couple other things break down or will give you that sense of umami, savoriness that we taste. We have a taste receptor for, right? Plenty of things have free amino acids in them, like tomatoes. like mushrooms, like Parmesan cheese. I like fish, right? Which is why sushi tastes good because they have a lot of free amino acids in them. Uh, like uh, kelp, Dashi, all these things. Even if you add no MSG, external MSG to them, right? They contain free amino acids. So hydrolyzed vegetable protein is where they break down a natural protein into amino acids, some of which are glutamic acid,
+
+[38:59] right? And therefore have the same effect as MSG. So yes, they are the same. However, they are equally non-reactive, right? If you do an extensive research of the history of studies on MSG sensitivity, what you will find is
+
+[39:16] that all of the studies that show that there's a problem are fundamentally flawed. Nastasia, by the way. So don't get insulted. Nastasia thinks that she's sensitive to MSG. I black out. She blacks out. What the hell does that even mean? I black out. When did you black out? Twice, like 8 years ago. When you had what? Chinese food. Oh, so it's Chinese food. So it's only MSG and Chinese food that causes reaction. Not all the other things that contain glutanic acid. Right. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's nuts. You see what I'm saying? Listen, people, listen to what just happened. Nastasia eats things all the time that have MSG in them. She ate Chinese food, assumed it was MSG and blacked out because of all the liquor she was drinking. No, I know, I know. Oh my god. I swear I wasn't drinking anything. My heart started beating slow and I went into a spiral and I went into white light. White light? What is this? This is not a known. Here's a study that works, right? Take a gelatin capsule, right? Pack it with MSG. Randomize it with a bunch of other gelatin capsules that contain sugar,
+
+[40:20] right? With an equal amount of sodium mixed in so that the sodium levels are the same. Randomly distributed them to people and see whether anyone has a reaction. You know what? They don't. All the studies that appear to show reactions, use things like a strongly, I'm making quote marks with my fingers. Strongly flavored citrus beverage to try and cover up the flavor of MSG, which is detectable,
+
+[40:44] right? They also use incredibly high levels of MSG, which cause you to be able to taste it better. The studies that show there are problems, physical problems with MSG are things like neonatal rats are dosed with the equivalent of you
+
+[40:58] eating like a half a kilo of straight MSG, which is nothing close to what you're going to use. Okay? Like there are no studies. They tried to gork out monkey brains. like neonatal, like, you know, newborn monkeys. They tried to zap their brains with MSG and were unable to. It's pathetic. I don't applaud those studies, but I'm just saying this is a study that was run. Um, You know, like, this is a classic thing. Nastasia has Chinese food. Nastasia has heard about this thing, which was basically posited as a joke in the literature a long time ago, this thing called Chinese restaurant syndrome. And then snowballed into this nightmare. There's a lot of different interesting theories about why people think this is an actual phenomenon. One being that you have something unfamiliar or something you don't like and that you have a reaction to it and then your brain thinks you hone in on it. There's another theory that perhaps it's hypernutrient, a lot of sodium, right? Because you, these diets are also high in um, in salt. For instance, when I eat large quantities of cheese and have red wine and don't drink water and eat a lot of
+
+[42:01] bread and then eat oil-based stuff, which I do on a regular basis because I like having cheese for dinner, I get a horrible headache. Am I allergic to cheese? No, I'm freaking dehydrated. Maybe I was dehydrated. Yeah, maybe you were dehydrated. I had 2 friends in college blackout from Chinese food and blame it on MSG. Really? Yeah, and what were they smoking along with? Oh my god. This is my point. It's like, why is it always Chinese food? It's in everything. You're never like, here's what doesn't happen. I had a slim gym and I passed out. Slim Jim is like 100% MSG. You know what I mean? It's like, get, get, people need to get their stories straight. Here's here's a little something. If you didn't learn this in logic school. logic school, which I did, because I was a philosophy major, post-hoc ergo
+
+[42:45] propter hock, common fallacy, right? After this, therefore, because of this, just because you had a reaction to Chinese food does not mean that MSG was the causality of it. Did you go back and ask those guys how much MSG they used? Do you even know they used MSG? No. Chinese food. That's absurd as well. It's like you had a reaction. Everyone needs to break this post hoc ergopropter hoc thing, right? It's not just because something happened after something doesn't mean you've established a causal
+
+[43:14] relationship. The actual studies that have been done show that there is no problem. But theoretically, if you were allergic to MSG, meaning if you had no
+
+[43:23] neurotransmitters and you were already therefore dead, so you couldn't have any MSG in your system,
+
+[43:28] then yes, you also could not have hydrolyzed vegetable protein. Is that a reasonable answer? Okay. Had a question in from Pete on a similar thing. What's the deal with nitrates and nitrates? Uh, there are two. what's the deals, right? One possible what's the deal is, what's the deal, i.e. is there a problem with them? I think the difference. Yeah? Sasha says that because she doesn't want me to go into another diet shot. Here's what's hilarious about. I'm gonna do it anyway. So, uh, turns out that, uh, like a lot of natural curing salts have nitrates and
+
+[44:02] nitrites in them, which is why they were so good for curing things. Turns out, if you don't add them to quick cured products like bacon, and then you backpack them and put them in the store. You have a good chance that you're gonna give someone botulism because they prevent botulism growth, right?
+
+[44:17] So, uh, to me, they're they're a good thing. Well, here's what's most hilarious to me. Whole Foods, sponsor of this show, not this mean this radio station. And also, by the way, a place I shop on a regular basis, pisses me off for this reason. They will sell something called uncured bacon, where what they do is they buy things like celery, which naturally accumulate nitrites in
+
+[44:39] them, and nitrates and nitrates in them, and then reduce it down to, like, you know, so that, like, 8 acres of celery, fit into, like, you know, like a plastic cup. Then take the flavor out of it and use that to cure instead and say they haven't added any nitrates.
+
+[44:54] They've just added natural celery. To me, this is like the worst form of of bull crappery that you can pull on someone because you're giving them the same exact product with the same exact functionality with
+
+[45:08] a with a fake pseudo-healthy label on it, and nothing pisses me off more than that sort of mendacious crap that people pull on the back of labels.
+
+[45:16] Okay, now, back to the difference between nitrate and nitrite. When you use nitrates, which is what they used to use. Nowadays, nitrates are only used on long cured products like hams. When you apply nitrates to meat, nitrates are broken down to nitrites, right, which are then broken down further, and then eventually cause the cured color and exert their
+
+[45:38] antimicrobial properties. Okay? If you are going to do a short-term product, like a bacon, you're going to, or you're pumping, or you're using a brine. You're going to want to use night trite with an eye, right? Almost all things that you make. You should use nitrite nowadays, right? If you're doing a long cured ham, then you're going to want to use nitrite, but most of the time you want to use nitrite, and the easiest way to do it is to buy a product called Morton's
+
+[46:06] Tender Quick Salt, which has it mixed in. So you don't need to worry about it. You don't need to worry about getting your salt and your, uh, and having, you know, pink salt lying around in case your kids, because you really shouldn't eat. You shouldn't eat it by the bushel. But it's something that's been used in cooking since
+
+[46:21] Time Immemorial, even before it was isolated on its own and used because there was those impurities in natural salts.
+
+[46:28] Okay, so let's end on a non- diatribe note, shall we? Yeah. Nostalgia's like, yeah. Nastasia doesn't like to get cut. See, I wish, like, you should never tell me stuff like that MSG stuff and you know I'm going to go off on it. I can't help it. It's like in my blood. It's like, it's like I'm a shark and I smell blood. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like I can't help it. It's in my nature. Don't blame me out there. I don't want anyone writing it and saying I'm mean or anything like this because she saves what the vicious stuff she does to me for off air. Like I'm the same all the time. No, you're not. Should I get you guys separate tables? From now on, we need a glass wall in between us on a thing. Anyway, Brian writes in with a friendly question. Hello, hello, Nastasia. These are all friendly questions, by the way. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. Can you tell me how I can make my own chewing gum? And is there any way to make bubble gum? Hey, good question. I don't know whether he read the post before he sent that in. I don't think so. I got it before the post. Well, chewing gum. The original chewing gum comes from the sap of the, well, the latex from the sapadilla tree, and sapadilla is one of the fruits that we had, the fruit spice park. I wrote about it in the most recent blog, blog poke post, you can go on and look at it, and you can still buy it. And that latex is, when it's its process, it's called Cheekle, right? And it's very easy to use. Cheek lay, by the way, I'll give you the short story because one of the guys at Fruit and Spice Park gave us a story. It's a crazy story. I don't know if I believe it, but it's repeated a couple times. And if you really care about cheat laying, gum bases, you can read Jennifer Matthews book, The Chewing Gum Chicle, The Chewing Gum of America from Ancient Maya to William Wrigley. And the story is this. Santa Anna, the Mexican general who handed us R behinds at the Alamo and wiped out the Alamo and David Bowie and all those guys. David Bowie. That David Bowie site. Bo what's his name? Bowie, the bowie knife guy. Now, David Bowie's almost old enough to have gotten wiped out. Anyway, so wife's out, David Bowie. What's his name? Bowie, the bowie knife guy. Anyway, and like about Davy Crockett. didn't he wiped out there? No, no. A bunch of people got wiped out at the Alamo. If you really want to hear the story, go read, go listen to Johnny Horton's, remember the Alamo song. And um, I'm going to get a lot of people mad that I don't know the Alamo story. Anyway, so, like, he later goes back to Mexico, loses the war, uh, gets his
+
+[48:44] behindhanded to him. Uh, you know, we go murder a bunch of uh, of like, you know, basically teenagers at a place called Triple to Peck Heights, win the war. We get a whole bunch of territory seated from Mexico. Santa Anna's trying to make some money now because he's no longer the president, XYZ. Uh, that was late, this is later, ends up in stat exiled in Staten Island with a pile of cheek lay. They're trying to turn cheek lay, which is the stuff, this latex, into Vulcanized rubber, and they can't do it. So he sells it to a guy named Thomas Adams, who's like, hey, listen, kids like to chew on things. And so instead of trying to make vulcanized rubber out of it, he makes chicklets, which are the 1st kind of
+
+[49:19] cheekway-based common chewing gum available in the United States. Believe it or not there it is, right? And so cheat lay was the main gum that people use for gum base for years and
+
+[49:28] years, and they got hit with a kind of like triple whammy. One, uh, they started running out of cheap lane. During World War II, Wrigley was sending cheaply to, uh, you know, gum
+
+[49:37] to uh, all the soldiers to try and get him hooked on it while they were abroad, right? Which was successful. So they were really running out. It was harder to get because it was wartime, and they started synthesizing synthetic ones. Most chewing gum now is synthetic made. It's no longer a natural thing from a tree. So that was it, you know, a big whammy. And then after the war, a bunch of, you know, people in like, you know, Guatemala and Mexico were like, hey, how's come we're so
+
+[50:04] oppressed? What the hell is going on here? And they started to have some reforms down there, which further put a dent in us basically, you know, holding the, holding the chickleros and the other peasants there down under our thumbs. And so they basically moved away from using
+
+[50:19] Chick-leigh entirely. You might remember that era from when United Fruit convinced the CIA to overthrow a bunch of governments down there so that we could have cheap bananas.
+
+[50:28] One of the one of the least cool sections of our history. Anyway, um, so you can get a cheek lay still, you can buy it. I think Tara Spice sells gum base, but I think it's cheap lay. That what they told me. I put that in our blog. I know you can buy guaranteed cheat laid base from Glee Gum. The people who make glee gum, they'll sell you a pound. A pound is $15. And you buy it. You can't make really bubble gum with it. Bubble gum is always a synthetic base, I think, because it has a different composition. The cheek blade one, it's not going to blow bubbles that well. So what you do is, and everyone has the same recipe. So I'll just give it to you. Like I search like every website. This is the one we used and everyone uses the same thing. 13rd cup gum base, half cup powdered sugar, 2 tablespoons, corn syrup, the regular stuff, doesn't have, does not high fructose. It's there as a plasticizer, right? One teaspoon glycerin. You can get that, I think, at pharmacies. We have it for pastry supply stuff. Then acid of your choice, everyone uses citric acid because they're lazy. We use many kinds of acid, mallic, tartaric, but you want a powdered acid. flavoring of your choice. And then and then some extra powdered sugar. And what you do is you microwave it. You microwave the gum base, a little bit of the sugar, the corn syrup, and the glycerin, and the acid if you want, and you stir it. It's sticky as all heck. you can put in a core container, microwave it. You stir it up, and then you start stirring in powdered sugar until it forms a ball, and then you can just use excess powdered sugar like it's
+
+[51:55] flour, like you're kneading it. And then you just knead in flavor until you get a flavor you like, right? And it takes a lot more than you think. And you can knead in extra acid, you can even sprinkle with extra acid at the end. When you're, uh, so what flavors have we done? Oil-based flavors tend to work best and they tend to last longest. Uh, we've used uh, all kinds of weird oils from Mandy Aftel. We've used natural things like port wine, uh, that we did port wine reduction gum that was good, but those water-based flavors tend to fade very, very quickly.
+
+[52:22] So yeah, make sure you have to make sure you add extra acid. You can add a pinch of salt. When you're done, you can dust it with powdered sugar, roll it out with a rolling
+
+[52:30] pin like it's like it's a dough. You can roll it between acetate sheets and then roll it out and keep it flat. You can roll it into balls and cut it. You can nuke the sheet slightly and then form them into raviolis and they'll stick to each other after they've been nuked and you can dust it with powdered sugar again. So you can put like, you can make little gum raviolis. They were good, right? We made those. But you just have to use like an oil, like a solid on the inside or something that's like frozen
+
+[52:53] oil base, not water base. Okay, listen, you were going to be tempted, Brian, to use your pasta machine to roll out the gum. Nastasia's shaking her head. No. Horrible, right? Yeah. And if you must, if you are compelled to try to use a possum machine to roll out your
+
+[53:12] gum. Use somebody else's. We did. Oh, that thing was never the same, right? Oh my god. Anyway, so it's fun. It's easy. It's $15 a pound. cooking issues. Dave, Jacob writes in, there is a Toronto, California. There is a Toronto, California. We stand corrected.
+
+[53:52] I was like, he played guitar. Charming good with
+
+[54:02] wedding gilly and the spiders from Mars. Deep bladed left hand But made it to mine. Became the special man. Then we were Ziggazan. She lived up behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. There's a lot of posturing and talking around raw milk these days and how great it is, but if you really want to get a
+
+[54:39] full-on investigation into the pros and cons, the risks and benefits of raw milk consumption, here's a nifty website,
+
+[54:46] www.realrawmilkfacts.com. It has a laundry list of FAQs, along with information from studies and reports from American and European science communities. If you flirt with raw milk consumption, this is definitely worth taking a look at. This is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kiefer. Every spring at the end of kidding season, goat dairies across the country are faced with a question of what to do with their male buck
+
+[55:15] lanes, because on a dairy farm, there's no role for a male, often the most economical thing for these farmers to do, is to call the animals at
+
+[55:22] birth or ship them off to the commodity market. Heritage Foods USA is embarking on a new project, no goat left behind, looking to step in and fill this niche by creating a marketplace for these
+
+[55:33] male bucklings. Visit us at www.heritagefoodsusa.com to learn more and to reserve your goat this coming October.
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+[0:06] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins. I work for Fairway Markets in the New York area. And we're awfully proud to support Heritage Radio, and we care so much about everything that goes on out here at Roberta's and their
+
+[0:41] studio because they talk to people who are serious about food and that's what we are at Fairways. We're serious about food. We just care very deeply about you as a customer and how you cook and what you cook with and how you entertain and
+
+[0:57] that's why we love to support heritage radio because it's pretty much the same thing. It's wanting to find happiness through serious food and people who are serious about it and care about learning everything there is to learn about it. And that's, that's, we're kindred spirits. If it's something worth having in your kitchen, you're going to find it at Fairway. And if there's somebody worth talking to about food, you're going to find them on
+
+[1:24] heritage radio and we will be supporting you guys for a long, long time. At Fairway, I'm your personal grocer, Steve Jenkins. Fairway market.
+
+[1:44] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from noon to noon 45, although I think today we might be running a little long here in the studio today with Nastasia, the
+
+[1:54] Hammer, Lopez, and Colin, all of your questions today too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 because today is a very special day. We have as our call in guest, Nathan Mirvold. The brain behind the modernist cuisine mega book extravaganza that came out, I forget whether it was the beginning of this
+
+[2:15] year, the end of last year. Nathan, you there? I'm here. Oh, great. very good to have you on. So listen, in case there's like a person out there who's been living under a rock or something, this book, basically, Nathan was, were you the head of like a
+
+[2:31] GOI design at Microsoft? What was your daily? I was chief technology officer. Chief Technology Officer. So, you know, like many of the good things from Microsoft came out of Nathan's brain, fair to say, or your team anyway, right? Yep. Okay. So then decided that didn't necessarily want to be in Microsoft anymore, although apparently you're still buddies with that whole crew,
+
+[2:53] right? Bill Gates is a great friend of mine, and I still work with him on a variety of things. Right, like I know I've been out of the Microsoft now for 11 years, so it's pretty much their
+
+[3:06] company now, not mine. Yeah, although, you know, let's be honest, all their good stuff came out before 11 years ago. Boom! Boom. Just kidding. Anyway. So a number of years ago or many years ago as far as I know, Nathan started traveling, the world going to the finest restaurants in the
+
+[3:21] world was also an avid cook, and then amassed what, by all accounts, although I've never actually been to the one at your house, is possibly the greatest kitchen in the world.
+
+[3:32] Then, after a while, realized there was no real kind of large scale encyclopedic book about how to cook using all kinds of new techniques and technologies, and so decided to write a book on the subject, enlisted some of the greatest minds in this
+
+[3:48] field to help. And then 3 or 4 years later came out with the books that we all know as a modernist cuisine book series. accurate or no? Yeah, you got it, Dave. All right. Wait, Jack, do we have a call? All right, we already have a call, Nathan. I'm going to go right to it. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, how are you? Doing well. My name's Alvin. Actually, I met Nathan at the beginning of the month at dinner at the lab. How are you, Nathan? Great. How you doing? Good, good. I had a question for you guys. Um, I'm getting ready to buy a liquid nitrogen wire and I, uh, I read the, I read the Farmer on cooking issues. Um, I live in an apartment, so I don't know that the uh, 160 Super Ninja Dwar is going to work for me. A lot of streps have been telling me to get a 10 liter joire, but I feel like maybe 2030 is uh is a better size. Do you guys have any input on that? city do you live in? And what city do you live in and what floor do you live on? 3rd floor. What city? Houston. Uh, I'm going to defer to Nathan on this. I go small. I wouldn't be comfortable having large amounts of nitrogen going up and downstairs. What do you think, Nathan? You know, as long as you don't spill it, it's okay. You have to make sure you have in a very well ventilated room because if it fell over, you want to make sure that the nitrogen doesn't take too much
+
+[5:12] oxygen, displace too much oxygen from the room. And by the way, it's pronounced doer. James Dewer was the guy who invented it. The same Scottish name is Dewer Whiskey, although perhaps not the same family. Interesting. So, uh, you know, the, so, either the, the 10 or the 20 liter would be fine. The larger the doer is, the longer the nitrogen is going to keep. Because the heat loss is about the same, but the volume is different. So if you have a 20 liter, uh, doer, you're going to wind up uh, having
+
+[5:51] the, the nitrogen lasts a lot longer than a 10 liter? But carrying it up and down the stairs is going to be a pain. Yeah, and the reason I asked you what city you're in is if you're in New York, it's a pain to go get because you have to go to one of the welding shops in the city. It's not advisable to keep it in the passenger area of a car. If you live out in Houston and you have a car or better yet, even a truck that you can drive out to the place and pick up refills, it's a lot less of a
+
+[6:16] hassle. Would you agree, Nathan? Yes, I would. If you drive with liquid nitrogen in the car, which I certainly have been known to do, just have all the windows rolled down. Okay. Yeah, I mean, the reason for this is, the liquid nitrogen. When it boils into just nitrogen gas, it creates a lot of it. It goes up by factor of 500, something like that. So, uh, uh, you can easily displace all of the volume of the air in your
+
+[6:48] car, and then you pass out. And you could even die. And people have died from spilling a liquid nitrogen doer in a
+
+[6:56] small enclosed space. And a car is, by definition, a small enclosed space and an accident could do it. Even if I had the liquid nitrogen in the trunk. I still can have the windows rolled down. Although pickup truck is obviously an even better way to go. Yeah, that's ideal, but just bungeing it down properly so it doesn't rattle about. Got it. Yep, it gave, um, I, I noticed when I was looking online at the dwarfs, like there's some, some 10 liter dwarfs that say that there are like £30 empty and then there was like a 30 liter one that said it was £30 full. Is there,
+
+[7:29] I, I imagine the heavier one would, would be better insulated? that correct? or not? I can't imagine a 30 liter doer that's £30 full. I think that's probably an error. Okay, yeah. In general, larger, as Nathan said, the larger they are, the better they are for storage, I'd be wary of buying used
+
+[7:46] used doers because a lot of times their installation can be can be bad. Um, you know, but if you're willing to take the risk and they're good, then they're good. You know, it's just a matter of can you afford to take the risk on a used doer? You roll a dice? Yeah, a doer is basically a vacuum bottle. It's like a thermos bottle? And they can, if they're, if you drop them, for example, you can crack the inside just enough for
+
+[8:11] there to be a vacuum leak. And so uh, you wind up having no uh, uh, no insulation value. Yeah, and you end up finding out overnight when you have no nitrogen when you need it the next day at a demo. It sounds like that's happened to you, Dave. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that's another nightmare about renting small format doers from welding shops. They give you the crappiest one they have and it's usually been beaten about. If you're going to do it on a regular basis, I recommend buying a new one and being nice to it. But here we have Nathan, I hear we have another caller on the air. Thank you so much for your question, by the way. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Hi Nathan. This is Michael Natkin from sale. Hey. Hi. So, I was reading the Fat Duck cookbook lately, and Eston Blumenthal, he talks about using star anis with onions to increase meaty flavors. Um, and he mentions that it is a combination of anasaldehyde and anisidine from the anis. which combines with sulfur and produces some sort of a sulfur heterocyclic, uh, I've tried it. It definitely works. It's beautiful. But I'm sort of curious about the mechanism and whether there are other ways to apply it. I have no knowledge of this, Nathan. Well, I'm going to probably have to pass too. You know, the flavor chemistry is extremely complicated. And uh, whereas you can find things like what you're describing there, where some of the sulfurous compounds from onions will combine with another flavor to make something meaty. It's hard to generalize. If you took a different uh, spice than star anus, it probably will not work because it won't have the same uh, flavor compounds.
+
+[9:48] And I know Hessian's working with or worked with the guys at Firmanich and a number of other places, and they've, you know, have some wacky stuff. A lot of the chemical a lot of the chemical arguments for what's going on in cooking in terms of the flavor chemistry, I find them extremely interesting to read, but not necessarily as valuable when
+
+[10:07] you're cooking. McGee is working on a large format book on this kind of subject right now. I mean, it's extremely interesting. That particular one, I, I, even though I have the cookbook, I, I guess it's obvious I haven't read all the way through it, but I'll investigate that one further and maybe get on the horn with McGee about
+
+[10:22] it, because I think he's investigated that. Any more thoughts on that one, Nathan, because I hear we have another caller on the air. Well, we've got, you know, as you say, flavor chemistry is extremely complicated, and you can
+
+[10:33] get, uh, some very specific things that will with a very specific flavor, that you just don't get otherwise. Um, and as an example, uh, many wines have a vanilla flavor in them that comes from oak, because in fact, uh, oak has got compounds very similar to vanilla and vanilla. Uh, now, that's idiosyncratic to oak. It doesn't mean all wood does or it doesn't mean that you can generalize that to other flavors, unfortunately. Yeah, I made actually a vanilla like ice cream out of the oak from scotch after roto vapping. It's pretty good. How cool. It's good. I mean, I know you have like, it's easy for you to do, you know, Nathan. Obviously, what I do. I combine the oak with the cream cold so that I can neutralize some of the tannins, but and then either heat or don't do a sand
+
+[11:22] mason style with uncooked eggs if you're not worried about the pasteurization. But listen, I promise to look into this anise onion thing. I'm having noastasia write down the question now and I promise to look into it more, okay? Cool. You know, we make a thing, Dave, where we rotovap whiskey to take the alcohol out, which sounds like about the stupidest thing you could
+
+[11:40] possibly do. Take perfectly good scotch whiskey and remove the alcohol. But my god, the flavors that are present, that are masked by the alcohol, because the alcohol is so raw on your tongue and palate that you don't taste the
+
+[11:52] subtlety. It's just amazing. Yeah, I mean, I like both, you know, well, Nathan and I are both big rotovap fans. I like, I like both sides of the, of the still on this one, but next time you do it, just make some, uh, take it down a little further, you know what I mean? So you don't have as much mass and I don't actually add any milk to it. I just used straight cream because you're adding so much liquid in the form of oak, but it's
+
+[12:12] to damn good ice cream. Yeah, sounds great. All right, Jack, is it true we have another color? Caller, you were on the air. Okay. Hello, Dave. Hello? This is Joe. I calling from South Carolina. In the introduction of modern cuisine, I guess Nathan says that he really can't address
+
+[12:34] bread for fear that the book will become too large. I'm curious where bread sits in modernist cuisine, in a broader perspective. I'm also curious is, is there going to be a sequel to modernist cuisine or did you close down the kitchen and send everybody home? But, Nathan, as long as you can answer this, Nathan, I have a very similar question online, so I'll just add those to
+
+[12:55] it, and you can take care of all these at once. This is from Ian Benz, and you're basically saying, would you have done anything differently if you were going to start over? And what's your next project? Any chance for a pastry book and someone asks the same thing about cocktails. So you might as well hit all of those, hit all of those at once. Okay. So, um, when people ask me what's next, I would say, what we're what we're currently doing is still going on with this book. I mean, I'm right in the middle of an interview or a radio show here. Um, we did a lunch for people uh, yesterday. We did a dinner last week. So the team is all still working, um, uh, uh, very hard, primarily promoting the existing book. Um, and we're doing some experimentation that we could use in the future for a future book, but
+
+[13:41] mostly we're working on the existing book. I think that's going to be true through the 1st of the year. So in January, we need to make a decision as to what we do next. Uh, we didn't cover pastry baking and dessert. It's a world unto itself. We certainly are thinking about doing that as the next book. Um, we might instead, however, do a next smaller book before we do that one because pastry baking dessert would be another 2 or 3 years slog for sure.
+
+[14:06] In terms of the status of, uh, and cocktails are another thing that people have suggested, uh, as something to do,
+
+[14:15] plus, uh, there's a 1000000 different threads we could pick up. And so we're going to look at all of them. And right now, we really have not made a decision. In terms of the status of bread and modernist cuisine, I'd say pretty much not. Uh, in the sense that modernist restaurants, uh, only rarely have a bread service or anything like bread or have done something really modernist with
+
+[14:40] bread. can only think of a couple of examples. Uh, Faran Adria has a dish he calls the airbaguette, which looks like a perfectly little to sell, um, uh, miniature baguette, but in fact is completely hollow inside. Uh, and so that's kind of a cool uh, dish. Um, Jose Andres, uh, asserts that at
+
+[15:03] bazaar, where they, um, uh, make what they call a Philly cheese steak out of it by putting a very, very thin slice of beef on
+
+[15:11] top and they inject um, a cheese foam inside of it. It's really good. But other than that dish, it's hard for me to think of any other things where a modernist chef has tried to reinvent bread.
+
+[15:26] Dave, can you think of any? Uh, not, not really. I mean, it's, uh, Bread is used as a component by many, many chefs, but they haven't actually reinvented
+
+[15:37] the bread itself. It's just, you know, you'll get, you know, different. In your gastronomical article, you sort of argued that modernism came at different
+
+[15:47] times that came earlier to paintings than architecture. Is modernism just not reaching bread yet? Uh, well, I think that's that's certainly a possibility. Um, uh, you know, the pastry and baking have their own sets of traditions, their own things that they
+
+[16:04] follow. Some aspects of pastry and baking already follow the same approach that modernist
+
+[16:11] chefs take. So modern chefs are always weighing things out exactly, and we always have a pantry full of little white powders and soda pastry chef. You know, you don't add baking soda by taste, or by guessing, by gosh, you have to weigh it out if you want a consistent result. Uh, so, uh, but I don't, uh, I, I've not, seen anything that I really could call modernist, uh, baking or bread.
+
+[16:40] Modernist pastry, yes, pastry chefs uh, have been at the forefront of modernist uh, cuisine. At many modernist restaurants, The pastry chef is actually out in front of, uh, of the savory guys, uh, at, uh, many other restaurants that are, are still traditional or
+
+[17:01] nouvelle in character. It's the pastry chef that's dragging the rest of the kitchen in the 20th century or 21st century. Sort of like Johnny Azini at Jean Georges or any one of those Michael... Or Michael Lisconos of La Vernadan. are 2 great examples. Well, let me further on these questions, because we have, this is, again, for me and Ben's writing in on similar questions. Knowing what you know now about the whole process of realizing the book, would you have done anything differently if you were to start it
+
+[17:27] over? Well, you know, we obviously we learned lots of things while doing the book. And so some of those things you'd like to have learned a little bit sooner, of
+
+[17:41] course, but really, there wasn't, uh, I was pretty happy with the whole process. There was very little I would do differently. Um, yeah, I, I originally thought I was going to write a big book and I thought big meant 600 pages. And then 800 and then a 1000 And, you know, if we'd owned up up front and knew it was going to be 2400 from the start, maybe I wouldn't have started the
+
+[18:03] thing. It would have seemed too daunting. Right. But I don't really have a lot of regrets on it. No. Well, well, as as he also said, he hopes you're proud of the accomplishment because he finds it really incredible, as do, I think, all of us. But he makes a point here. Ian, when he's asking the questions. He says, you sure you could not be completely satisfied, especially in this age where every week a new technique or discovery seems to come to light, that changes one ideas of what can be done. But I think it's actually kind of the opposite because, I mean, the most challenging thing it had to have been for this book is because new things are happening is to make a statement that's going to survive the test of time and
+
+[18:39] still deal with newness. And I think that's kind of the whole, that's the whole thing behind the book. That's the whole kind of interesting thing about it, right? Yeah. And, you know, it was a challenge as we were finishing the book up to send to the
+
+[18:53] printer, you know, every day, I'd think of one of the things we hadn't included, and I'd call Max up and say,
+
+[19:00] oh, my God, we don't have a recipe for skier. We have a section in the book that covers various fresh cheeses and fermented milk products. So we had yogurt. We didn't have skier, by God, and skier is sort of halfway between farmer's cheese and yogurt. It's got rannit in it like farmer's cheese is, but also it's fermented like yogurt. Now, could we have shipped the book without skier? Yes. But we did sneak it in in the 11th hour. And of course, since we finally shipped the book off, most things like that have piled up. I mean, well, the lucky thing is, food is such a huge subject, you know, that
+
+[19:36] they... You couldn't ever cover all of it. Right. And, you know, the other day I was, uh, someplace and I, uh, I had some pasole. And I kept myself on the farthest. My god, we never covered hominy. At all? And the whole process of using lime to treat corn, which is intrinsic to not only hominy, but to
+
+[19:56] making, uh, uh, the masaharina for making tortillas, like, god damn it, how did I forget hominy? But, you know, I think hopefully the world will forgive me for forgetting that money. Well, I say there's plenty... There's plenty of other stuff. And, you know, honestly, the thing is for the rest of us that, you know, not writing, you know, books like this, but do
+
+[20:14] write in this field, it's kind of lucky that it's such a huge subject that, you know, you guys can't tackle all of
+
+[20:19] it, or what would we do for a living? Well, you know, Dave, while we were working on the book, we followed your blog very carefully to make sure that we had covered all the things you
+
+[20:32] would put out there. Not always in as much detail because we decided not to cover cocktails, for example, which is a big part of your blog and your
+
+[20:38] cuisine. But, uh, we tried to stay on top of new developments, but we knew for a
+
+[20:44] fact, new stuff would happen the minute we were done. And that's okay, because what we wanted to do was create enough of a foundation in the base that, uh, we communicated to
+
+[20:55] everyone, and if you waited for it to be complete, you'd never do it at all. Right. Exactly. We have one more caller, and then we're going to take a break. Color, you're on the air. Hey, this is Andrew from Minneapolis. And I have a question for Nathan. Um, I'm just wondering what's one of the biggest things you and your team learned. in making the book about food and cooking that really made you stand back and say, wow, like this is a crazy thing that's happening, or maybe one of the things that you felt like you learned about
+
+[21:25] food, and that your research team learned, that you felt like you were the 1st ones learning
+
+[21:30] this, and you were the 1st ones kind of making this almost in a pioneering aspect of what you were
+
+[21:35] fiddling with. Okay, well, I'll quickly touch on a couple of those. I mean, uh, uh, one which is very controversial with traditional chefs is that uh, confit is a fraud. Um, but you see, I mean, the traditional cooking technique where you cook meat in
+
+[21:53] uh, fat or oil at low temperature for a long period of time. Duck confit is, of course, a classic example. Well, working on the meat chapter, I was trying to figure out how cooking the meat in oil or fat could possibly change the meat.
+
+[22:09] And I decided it couldn't possibly. The molecules are too large for them to penetrate the meat, but every traditional chef, every particular friend chef believes that there's something unique that happens. So we did a bunch of blind taste tests, where we took both, both uh, duck leg confit. We also did pork shoulder. And we tried it, steamed, sous vide, um,
+
+[22:35] and uh, and traditional methods. And in a blind taste test, we couldn't tell the difference. Oh wow. And when I tell some initial friend chefs this, they get almost angry, swung guys, I do not agree. And I said, this isn't about agreeing. Tell me you've tried the blind taste test and you can taste a difference and I'll believe you. But if you haven't tried, Um, and that's sort of an interesting question of attitude there. If, in fact, you try the experiment and you can't tell the difference in a blind test, that tells you something very profound, but a lot of folks think that there's an ideology of food that you should believe this stuff without testing
+
+[23:13] it. like that. So that's one example. We also learned what causes the stall in barbecue. This is when you cook a brisket or a big piece of meat. The people have noticed for many years that the temperature will rise for a while, then it will flatten out and stall and not increase.
+
+[23:31] For many hours before it increases again. And there's tons of theories on the internet about why that occurs. And we finally found out why. turns out the reason is that the meat is drying out. And the temperature is held down by the fact that the evaporation takes a tremendous amount of energy.
+
+[23:50] The thing that's ironic about it is that some people think the cure for the stall is to slather more sauce
+
+[23:57] under their meat, which of course only makes it wetter, which only prevents keeps the stall going younger. Yeah. So there's a couple examples. Although combining those combining those two, right? I mean, traditional confit is a good technique for producing that texture on a duck if you don't have access to vacuum bags or controlled
+
+[24:16] atmosphere cooking. Yeah, or a theme oven. That's right. What we found in those blind taste tests actually is that, um, what you, uh, what mattered was the temperature and the time. So if you cooked it at different temperatures, we can totally tell the difference. Right. You'd have to decide which one you preferred, but there's clearly was a difference if you cooked the duck at, say, 60 C or 65
+
+[24:42] C or 80 C. You could totally tell those. But we couldn't tell whether we steamed it in a combi oven or a CVAP, or we, um, or cooked a sous vide or traditional. And so you're right, Dave, that the original point of confit was really a sort of approach to sous vide where you could cook it at a low temperature for a long period of time and exclude air from
+
+[25:06] it for storage. And that's why there's a similarity. Alrighty, and with that, we will go to our 1st commercial break. Maybe beside me at the wheel. I stole a kiss at the turn of a mile My curiosity running wild. Cruising and playing the radio. With no particular place to go. Riding along a mountain of bees. I was anxious to tell her the way I feel. That's why I told her softly and sincere. And she leaned and whispered in mine. Curdling more and driving slow. With no particular place to go.
+
+[26:19] No particular place to go. So we parked way out on the Kokomo. The night was young and the moon was cold. So we both decided to take a stroll. Can you imagine the way I felt? I couldn't unfasten a safety bell. Riding along my calaboose. Still trying to get her belt to lose. All the way home, I held a cry. For the safety belted wooden bird. Cruising and playing the radio. With no particular place to go.
+
+[27:08] All right, welcome back. Cooking issues. First time we've had Chuck Berry. Call your questions 2 for Nathan Mirvold, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Next caller gets a modernist cuisine, signed apron, signed by Nathan. Chris and Max. We got who's on that apron? Do you know Nathan? I think it's all 3 of us. All right, nice, nice. Um, so let me follow up again. You mentioned a little bit about cocktails, but Kevin Lou wrote in and said, he has a question for you. Cocktail science is a branch of monitors cuisine that you didn't touch upon. We talked about that. Do you consider mixology cooking? And how far do you think chefs and bartenders should be able to take their creations? And do you have any insights about cocktail science that you can share with us?
+
+[27:54] So, uh, I'm not an expert on modernist cocktails, I certainly have had them and many of them draw on the same kinds of science and principles, but
+
+[28:06] I wouldn't call myself an expert. Dave, you're much more into it than I am. Yes, I do consider it cooking in a variety of senses, but it's not always practiced that way. You know, that most cocktails are mixed by a bartender, most traditional cocktails. And they generally don't have the manpower to do anything very elaborate.
+
+[28:29] They're also the server. And so, and you typically have a fairly small number of bartenders with a fairly large number of people. You couldn't actually serve dinner if you had the same number of chefs as bartenders to customers. The ratio wouldn't work. And that's because most drinks are quite simple. You splash some scotch and water into a glass. That isn't cooking. But real modernist mixology that makes the complicated drinks. I definitely think qualifies. Right, and in fact, I mean, that's one of the reasons I became interested in it was because I thought there was a niche that wasn't being adequately explored, you know, and that's kind of one of the reasons I
+
+[29:10] got, plus I like cocktails. You know, so it was kind of a win-win situation. On a similar note, I'll just hit it real quick. We're waiting for the next caller to come in. Uh, Colin, longtime listener writer in, uh, says that cocktail geeks are loving the Ramos gin fizz. Bartenders are hating their guts for repopularizing a drink involving a 12 minute shake, although they don't really take 12 minutes to shake. And by the way, bartenders also, I wasn't last at details of the cocktail in July and bartenders were ordering this drink by the bushel. And basically, Colin wants to know, is there a better way? So Ramos gin phase is actually a drink that I don't much like. It's got like eggs, dairy, gin, orange flower, water, and some other stuff, and you shake the heck out of it, and it gets this creamy, to my taste, under alcoholic kind of thing that apparently is becoming more
+
+[29:54] popular. I'm not a huge orange flower water person. anyway. The secret con is to shake the ingredients dry without ice 1st to start the emulsification process. That's the old school way to do it. If I were you, I would invest in some in a mix of Xanthan and gum Arabic and keep it at your bar at all times. Uh, TIC gums makes a good one called saladizer, uh, 301 or 310 or something like that. And it's basically you can use it to make butter syrups or oil syrups, or you can use it to stabilize
+
+[30:22] Aramos or anything else. And it's just handy stuff to have around the gum Arabic axis, an emulsifier, and a bodying
+
+[30:29] agent, a xanthan axs as a stabilizer. So I would get a hold of that. Any, any, have any other ideas on that, Nathan? You made the point I would make. I mean, the other thing is make sure that you've got a good mixer or homogenizer for making the
+
+[30:45] emulsion. Yeah, well, Nathan has a bunch of nifty, emulsive, you know, different homogenizers. You know, he has the rotor stater, which actually is becoming more popular now. Tony, uh, our buddy Tony C, Tony Connellyaro from uh, England's got one in his bar. And, you know, we have one, you have one, a bunch of people have them now, but Nathan is the only person that I know who also has a
+
+[31:10] high pressure homogenizer. He can do some serious business with that, right? Yep. Oh, fantastic. It, um, It uses very, very high pressure, 30,000 per square inch, uh,
+
+[31:23] uh, create incredibly fine emulsions. So, uh, a blender can typically get you down around uh, 5 10 to 15 micron droplet size.
+
+[31:37] Uh, and with a rotor statter, you can probably get it down to 5 uh, microns with uh,
+
+[31:44] the high pressure. We can routinely get it down to one micron. And by the way, when Nathan says blender, he doesn't mean a crappy blender that you buy at Costco, he means a
+
+[31:52] Vita Prep. Yeah, a Vita prep or blend tack or one of the other really high-end ones. There really is a difference, but a rotor stat or homogenizer, which is a piece of labrador equipment, does a vastly better job even than a
+
+[32:06] vita prep. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about it is, um, once you get below about, 1st of all, you know, the
+
+[32:15] particle size that you can get out of out of a blender has to do with a number of things. How efficiently the blades can get to the particles, how much mixing there is, et cetera, et cetera, how the blade size in relation to the tank size, all
+
+[32:28] that. But at the end, you're limited by the kind of the tip speed, how fast the tip is hitting your
+
+[32:35] products. And in a rotor stater, there's a rotor that's rotating and a stater that's standing still. So, in effect, it's the equivalent of, in one, you're just slicing a knife through the air,
+
+[32:46] in the other, you put someone's head against the wall and then slice a knife through it. It's that kind of an addition of energy that you're talking about, which is the reason that it can get to such smaller sizes,
+
+[32:55] right? And anything, when you agree with it, with that description? Yes, absolutely. That's the whole, what you're trying to do is create sheer in the liquid. And, uh, a ordinary blender is trying to slice the blade faster than the fluid is moving. And the amount of sheer depends basically on the relative speed of the liquid and the blade, but of course, the liquid is moving and it can push out of the way, whereas a rotor
+
+[33:22] stater just forces all of the liquid in a very, very fine gap, 100s of an
+
+[33:28] inch, sort of a gap, or one side is stationary, The other side is at super high speed, and that creates just vastly more sheer. Right. Now, the other interesting thing about blending is that your tongue, okay, in terms of texture, your tongue can't really
+
+[33:43] perceive texture below about 20 microns. They're about that order of magnitude in that range, 20 microns in size. Which is why liquid nitrogen ice cream isn't perceptibly better, perceptibly better than ice cream made in a high-end commercial ice cream machine, even though its ice crystals are theoretically smaller,
+
+[34:05] right? Because your tongue can't receive it. So what's interesting is that the rotor stater has 2 possibilities for use. One, you need a small particle size. Like, for instance, like I did this thing with oysters and you might choke out the oysters if you have large particles. Two, you want a very stable emulsion, so you want the smaller things. If you're making milks, which is a big section in, uh, other
+
+[34:26] milks, like duck fat milk, which is a big section in modernist cuisine. Or, uh, but there apparently, and I haven't done the studies myself, but Nathan, I'm sure, has, uh, there are taste perception differences that depend upon the size of the droplets
+
+[34:40] below, below your threshold for perceiving texture. Is that true, you'd say, or no? Yeah, I think that is true. The other one, though, is the is how it looks, the optical properties. We have a photo in the book where we took a green liquid, a parsley
+
+[34:58] juice, actually. And then emulsified it with oil, you know, a bunch of different ways. And the smaller the droplets, the whiter it gets. Uh, when put through the uh, high pressure homogenizer, you wind up with something, which
+
+[35:16] is uh, all, it's like a tiny amount of tint to uh, cream. Whereas if you whisk it by hand, you can still make an emulsion, but the
+
+[35:27] emulsion is very, very green. And the reason is that the droplets of oil in the emulsion, they scatter light, the smaller you make them, the more of them there are. And so the more scattering you get into the more whiteness you get. Right. How up are you on pickle technology, Nathan? Uh, fair mode. We have quite a few pickles in the book. All right, let's take this question from Red then. Well, I've made good half sours at home with salt and water, so we're talking a fermented pickle, not a quick pickle, and small amounts of alum. I don't use Alan, but I mean, I have it, but I don't use it. They are not what I would find in New York. Would add in calcium hydroxide to a half sour brine. Keep them bright green and help them prevent them from getting soft. I've done some stuff with this. I would say I wouldn't add it to the brine. We're talking about pickling lime. I would soak them before you brine them. That will stop them getting soft, but I don't think it's going to keep them bright green. Did you ever do any research with cooking and copper to keep things green or any of these things with pickles? Uh, no, we didn't. Because it's top. We didn't cover pickles that extensively. Well, I think it's because it's toxic. none of us do it, right? Theoretically toxic. Well, that would be one of the reasons, yes. Um, you know, obviously, uh, copper does oxidize green, but, uh, and as a result, there are blue dyes that are copper based and so forth, but they are toxic, and so
+
+[36:49] I, I wouldn't do that. Right. I mean, in the research I was doing this morning, because this came in this morning, you know, they used to boil,
+
+[36:56] apparently, that, because you know, you can not boil, but you can, you can high temp simmer for a brief period of time below the softening point, and apparently that was another way to increase
+
+[37:04] firmness. Although I don't know why. I guess to get the pectin methylesterase to help reinforce the structures below the point at which they pecked
+
+[37:12] them below the point at which you break it down. I don't know. But they apparently they used to do it in copper, and that would lead to a bright green color because you're replacing the ion and the chlorophyll with
+
+[37:21] copper, which is stable and bright green. But I just I wouldn't do it. I don't think the green's that important to you. I agree. Yeah. I mean, in other words, I don't think it's as big a flavor. So preventing oxidation or changes in color in something like an apple, I think, is vital because the flavor is also changing at the same time as a direct result of what's going on. But I don't think the same is true with pickles and them turning a shade of green. I don't think it's going to affect the flavor. It's just not my, that's not my feeling. Well, I think you're probably right. And of course, if you do want to dye something green, there's safe ways to dye green, and I would rather use a safe food coloring than some copper thing I'm
+
+[38:05] leeching out of my pots. Right, right. And on safety. We have a question and he has, he has a couple questions here. take this one right now. Mike calls in with a plastic wrap, and he says, I can't recall us discussing plastic wrap on the air
+
+[38:18] before. I mean, it's something I've dealt with a little bit on the blog, but what are the heat effects on plastic
+
+[38:22] wraps, specifically the consumer plastic wraps I might find in the supermarket, or maybe the food service ones I can find at a restaurant supply. What's a safe temperature range to use in poaching and immersion baths, in a galatine, for instance. And what should what should they worry about? What's going to leech into the food? I would say actually a home one is probably going to end up. They're crappier because they're smaller and they're painted deal with, but most food service wrap now is polyethylene, like the home ones, but I would stay away from PVC wraps, obviously. But, I mean, I... You do find PVC wraps in restaurant supply places. You find it at Costco in in big any of the really big containers of the plastic wrap are usually
+
+[39:06] PVC. Um, uh, you know, often there. You gotta check. And PVC is considered okay if the stuff isn't hot. But I just rather not have it in the kitchen because I don't want to have to remember which plastic wrap should be hot and which plastic wrap should not be
+
+[39:25] hot. Are they properly, are they labeled? I can't remember. I'm trying to remember in my head, looking for the label on a box. If you read the other box, I've always seen it labeled. Right. It'll say PVC or polyvinyl chloride somewhere if it's a PVC side. If it's, uh, it's not always true that the polyethylene ones have a thing if they have a proprietary
+
+[39:44] thing. I'm not sure that Saran wrap, says it's polyethylene, because it's this proprietary brand name. It is polyethylene, it is safe. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing I find with plastic wraps is, I mean, polyethylene is great because it's supposed to not have
+
+[40:01] any, um, plasticizers that are going to leech into your food. However, they are made with solvents, and if they're not allowed to flash off properly when they're coming off the rolls at the
+
+[40:12] mill. They can have some solvent aroma left to them. Um, and uh, I always, uh, it's miraculous to me if you wad up plastic wrap and smell it. How many of them have a smell? Have you noticed that too, Nathan? I mean, it's just like, you know, at the school, it happens a lot because we have a bunch of different plastic wraps lying around and you can just kind of run around the school and smell them.
+
+[40:33] But, you know, if I, like, the, I think also the PVC ones tend to, uh, look, the biggest problem is fat related things. If there's anything in the plastic solvents or whatnot, they tend to be more lipophilic than hydrophilic. And so this is why if you have a bad plastic wrap and you go to a cheese shop and they wrap cheese in it, the cheese picks up these horrible aromas from the plastic that basically never come out and the cheese is ruined from an
+
+[40:57] organaleptic standpoint, not necessarily from a safety standpoint. That said, I use polyethylene all the
+
+[41:05] time all the way up to, I mean, I don't do much protein cooking above 62 or
+
+[41:13] so, except for confit, which I like at traditional temperatures. What about you, Nathan? Do you have any upper limits that you take the polyethylene to? Um, you know, normally the upper limit is sort of enforced on you by the fact that stuff gets really soft. Right. So, uh, we'll sous vide bags, uh, have are usually multi-layered. They usually have nylon as one of their layers, and they're good for much higher temperatures. And they're also safe and tested at much higher temperatures. So something like a ziploc bag or a plastic wrap, I
+
+[41:54] would, I tended to use it 60 C or below. Um, and there just isn't a whole lot of reason for stuff you'd cook hotter to use that stuff because there's better ways to do it.
+
+[42:04] Right. I mean, I do, we do chicken, we do chicken galatines at like 64 and plastic wrap and they're fine, you know, but that's basically the highest, the highest that
+
+[42:15] will, uh, that will go up. And also for my, you want to take a non- a non- technical question, you want to take a a dinner etiquette and marriage question we have from Mike that maybe we can both weigh in on here. Okay, so Mike's question is on dinner parties. When having guests over for a dinner party, 8 people or less. Would you serve food with a plated presentation, family style at the table or buffet? Here's his background. His wife and he are trying to entertain smaller groups versus going out to large gatherings because of better quality conversation, close friends,
+
+[42:45] et cetera. And Mike loves to cook, so he takes us on happily. His wife is a wonderful person, he says. making this thing. His wife is wonderful. He's not saying anything negative about her, but a fairly picky. Yeah, but a fairly picky eater, mainly texture over taste, but that's for another day. She never makes a fuss over it and has never gone hungry when we're out, but he's worried about if he plates his food, he wants to do plated food because he wants to challenge himself and because he thinks he'd like to think through the menu for the
+
+[43:10] night and he thinks he likes to think about the way everything's going to show up on a plate. She doesn't want it plated. She wants it family style because it's going to allow her to discreetly choose what to eat and what not to
+
+[43:20] eat and not feel and also to control portion size and not feel left out, not feel like she's being served something and not eating it and feel bad.
+
+[43:27] So, uh, what do you think? Help Mike out here. Well, it's it's pretty hard to to recommend anyone that they do something that will upset their spouse. That's probably not a good idea just in general in life. You know, the reason to do plated dishes is because it gives the chef control, allows you to do fancier, more interesting
+
+[43:52] things. in general. You know, almost anything you played up, you could put onto a platter, but then it's harder to
+
+[44:00] transfer, and it doesn't look as nice. Um, That said, the food does actually is going to be,
+
+[44:10] Apart from a very few exceptions, I think the food's going to be fine either way.
+
+[44:13] So, um, I would say try to strike a compromise with your wife
+
+[44:18] and, uh, find some, uh, uh, you know, fan, you also can do family style for some things and not for others.
+
+[44:27] You know, you can have your entrée, some restaurants do
+
+[44:31] that, you know, the steakhouse, typically the steak is individual, and the side dishes are all done, family style. Yeah, exactly. I think that's excellent advice. Pick some stuff that you know is a slam dunk for your wife. Stuff that you know she likes and work only with those things on the plated stuff and have them come out early in the meal when she's
+
+[44:49] already, when she's not full yet, and then she can scale back her portion size is later in the meal when you go family style, right? When that makes sense? Makes sense to me. I mean, for me, I get viciously, viciously angry if I plate something and I'm not just talking plated, like, I'm talking sandwiches. Anytime you construct a food, and then you watch someone pick it apart in front of you, I get viciously angry.
+
+[45:12] Even, uh, and I shouldn't say this on the air because people do it all the time, but like, like, even when chefs do it, when, when, um,
+
+[45:20] when, when I see someone do it to someone else's food, I'm like, look, at least taste it the way that they presented it because that's the way it was
+
+[45:26] intended and, and then pick it up, pick it apart. I mean, a sandwich doesn't taste the same if it's horribly mangled and then rearranged.
+
+[45:34] Just not intended to be eaten that way. Do you know what I mean? Yep. I mean, doesn't that make you kind of irritated sometimes, Nathan? I mean, if you actually hate something or you're allergic, fine. You know what I mean? But you're still not better better to tell the kitchen that beforehand, right? This way they can make adjustments to the sandwich or to the
+
+[45:53] plate, such that it's still something that they're proud of. Here's my problem with it. My problem with it is you mangle somebody's plating or somebody's dish, right? And then you judge them based on your mangled version of their dish without giving them the opportunity to make the dish such that you would like it given your issues with the food, right? I mean, does that make sense or no? Yeah, I think it does make sense. There's a, uh, There's a lot of, uh, There's a lot to be said for having the chef be allowed to make it the best possible
+
+[46:26] way. And anyone who is cooking for other people wants to please those people. And so, uh, it is always a little uh, disappointing if you're not given that opportunity. Now, to be fair, there are some people who, uh, for whatever reason, view it oppositely, and they say, oh, I don't want to bother the chef by telling him that I don't like, uh, you know, pickles on my sandwich or
+
+[46:55] or or some of the thing, that they feel that's being too picky. And so they they don't say it up front and then they try to pick it out afterwards. But I agree, in general, you should be up front with, with what your, um, your requests are. Obviously, someone's allergic to something. That's a totally different issue. Although if you're really allergic to it, it's too late to pick it up. at the time, you know? Yeah, yeah, but see, if you have a nut allergy, picking the peanuts out of your kung pao chicken is too late. You're screwed. Um, yeah, let's take, okay, Natasha's telling me I have to take a break, but I'll say this. Pickles is a very good example. If I put pickles on something, it's not just because I like pickles, but probably because that dish desperately needs the acidity from the pickle.
+
+[47:40] Do you know what I mean? So you remove that pickle and now you've now you've unbalanced the whole thing. Then if you don't enjoy it, I feel bad. That's what it is. Basically if you don't enjoy it, I feel bad. That's where that's what it comes down to. All right, listen, the next caller, and we're going to go take one more break. The next caller is going to get that apron. 718-497-2128 718-4972128 cooking issues.
+
+[49:11] What was that song, anyway? What is it? The avalanche? Not the avalanche. don't know that one. This is the 1st time we've had a song. I have no idea what it is. Anyway, welcome back to cooking issues. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128. Your questions from Nathan Mirabold at 718-497-2128. Well, we have an interesting one in from Josh and Antigua. Uh, says hello. He has been cooking Dave Chang's 5 minute, 102nd eggs and eating them with everything lately. He notices sometimes it's harder to peel them without obliterating the white of the egg. Is this due to something in my procedure? I bring the eggs, the room temperature before I boil them. Let them sit in warm, by letting them sit in warm water. After boiling for 4 minutes and 50 seconds. He thinks 510 is too set. He places the eggs in a nice bath until they're cool enough to handle. After wrapping and spooning against the shell until it's shattered into small pieces, it then peels the eggs in the ice bath.
+
+[50:06] Anyway, bubble, bub. sometimes the eggs come off with sorry, I didn't mean blah, blah, blah, Josh. know what I'm saying. Sometimes it comes off with no problem other times. rips the egg apart. Please explain what's going on. I have my feelings on it. Nathan, do you have any feelings on that one? Well, the texture bag is very critically dependent on the temperature, which it's cooked. And, uh, so the 1st question I would have
+
+[50:30] is how consistent is that if your bo, if you're boiling and timing it exactly, that's probably okay, unless you're varying the number of eggs or the size of the pot or how crowded they are.
+
+[50:41] Because that can make a difference if it's, if it, the water on the egg
+
+[50:46] is a little cooler because you put too many eggs in, you're going to wind up with it less cooked, which means it's much easier to rip it. The other possibility is that it's, uh, has been
+
+[50:59] established that the age of the egg makes a difference, that, uh, uh, very fresh versus older eggs will have a different texture. Right. So that could be it. I think that's exactly what's going on. I mean, Chang's, I think, argument there is rapidly boiling large
+
+[51:14] pots and, you know, a quantity of eggs, it's not going to perceptibly, perceptibly, you know, lower the temperature of the
+
+[51:23] water, that it's going to be able to recover quickly enough that it's not going to make that much of a difference. He always uses the same type, the same size, rather a vague, and always starting at the same initial temperature, which, as Nathan said, should prove fairly
+
+[51:39] accurate. There are some studies that show that eggs boiled, you know, quickly, at high temperature, rather than ramped up from cold, are easier to shell than ones that are ramped up from cold, and then and then shelled, Nathan and I both know that the exact opposite is true of low temperature eggs, ones that are cooked in the 62, 63, 64 Celsius range, because there the thin white just never sets up, and it acts as a release
+
+[52:06] agent, and there's nothing easier in the world, than breaking out an egg that's been cooked at at 62. Celsius. I mean, um, but, uh, the other thing is as eggs uh, age, the uh, PH rises. The egg white becomes more alkaline. Uh, and as it becomes more alkaline, and this is according to uh, egg science and technology by uh, William uh, Stadleman,
+
+[52:28] uh, you know, and others. As the pH rises, the eggs become easier to shell because the proteins in the thin white don't adhere as strongly to the
+
+[52:38] to the membrane. And this is a big deal in egg processing technology because people produce for a living shelled eggs and the value goes down dramatically. So people try to figure out a way to not have to store eggs, boil them quickly, and then rip the shells off of them. And so what they do is they actually alkalize the eggs. They store them above a sodium hydroxide bath, not in it, but above
+
+[53:00] it, and that increases a pH more rapidly than aging. And McGee actually recommends putting a pinch of baking soda into your water, although I've never tried it to try and alkalize it more and make them easier
+
+[53:11] to shell. And another interesting reason to try and take a fresh egg and alkalize it so that it can peel easily is
+
+[53:19] because even though it becomes easier to peel the taste of eggs in the panels I've read
+
+[53:25] on in these technical studies. The taste of egg does deteriorate over time, even though the peel ability goes up. Anyway, we have a caller on the air. Hey, here's one other little tip. I'll say, if you really want to make it easier to peel your eggs,
+
+[53:40] uh, run a blowtorch very lightly over the egg before peeling. It helps degrade the shell and it's much easier. It also works to roll the egg in liquid nitrogen very nicely before peeling it. Extreme hot or extreme cold. Both will make the shell more brittle. You heard it here first, nice email and modernist cuisine. All right. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, my name is Matt. from Chicago. Howdy. Dave, I talked to you a while ago about nitrous confusing honey, and it didn't really work out, but that's a whole nother story. Lately, um, I've been playing around with a little bit of uh, baking soda and
+
+[54:19] Chardonnay to make it for, um, effervescent, right? I did like a powdered sugar and baking soda rim. And I was wondering if you guys could give me some suggestions on doing a sorbet that has, say, something on top of it. So when you eat the sorbet and it melts, it becomes after vesting your mouth. By the way, you won the apron. So don't hang up when you're done. We'll get you back on the air and we'll figure out how to mail the thing to you because you were the next caller. Awesome. Thank you very much. Well, thank Nathan. He donated it to the show for you to have. But Nathan, you have any ideas? I wouldn't use baking soda, by the way. I mean, you need an acid plus a base. I wouldn't use but anyway, Nathan, go ahead. Well, um, you know, the problem with uh, having an acid-base reaction to make it effervescent is you're going to get some taste out of it. Right. Which in some, in some context, that's okay. You know, baking powder biscuits have a taste that is characteristic that way. Um, uh, unclear whether it's going to be okay in your Chardonnay. I mean, but that's sort of a personal preference. Uh, the only other way to make something effervescent is to put in
+
+[55:33] uh, something like pop rocks that already is effervescent itself and it's sort of stored effervescent. Right, and the pop rocks is definitely, I think, a better way to go, and you can buy unflavored pop rocks. Although, to be fair, Nathan, pop rocks isn't the same feeling as like effervescence in
+
+[55:52] a, in a, in a drink. Hey, um, why don't we, we'll, we'll leave him on the air because we need him to get the thing, but we'll tone down. So take your Chardonnay and put it in a cell survival.
+
+[56:04] and infuse it with the CO2. Yeah, much better. The reason that soft drinks and champagne are effervescent is that they have carbon dioxide gas dissolved in
+
+[56:17] it, and carbon dioxide happens to be a gas that is will very readily dissolve in a cold liquid.
+
+[56:23] Okay. And a seltzer bottle is exactly how you do that. So I would say, look, if you really want to have effervescent Chardonnay to make sort of a faux champagne,
+
+[56:34] just, you know, carbonize carbonate it directly. And the soldier bottles is the simplest way there are some other approaches you can do if you put a tiny bit of dry ice into the bottle and seal it
+
+[56:47] up. That'll also work. You just got to be careful you don't blow your bottle up. Yes. Okay. I would, I would Google image, uh, dry ice soda bottle to, to see people's eyes when they, when they don't do it properly because the bottle will blow. And then my question was, I'm trying to do it for a dessert where it's a sorbet, like it's a Chardonnay sorbet, and maybe there's some kind of chemical on top that if it melts in the mouth or as you put it together, it, it, it's almost effervescent in your
+
+[57:17] mouth, as if the reaction is going on in your mouth, and you think maybe the pop rocks are done for that? Wait, you could do that. You could put pop rocks powder on top. That would work, but it will have its own sort of texture and taste characteristics.
+
+[57:32] Okay. You know, I've not tried this, but, uh, you could, if you made your sorbet, you ought to be able to carbonate it. It's tough because the carbonation only works in the liquid
+
+[57:46] phase, so it's a question of how much liquid phase. That's why you have to spin it first. You can't freeze it, but if you took it, and you made a sorbet in a sorbet machine or a paco jet or something else. So it's in its state, that's semi-liquid. I bet you will get some CO2 in there. I mean, I've awesome. I pressurized a tailor once, and besides spraying ice cream base all over the kitchen. I wasn't able to get as much of an effect as I wanted. Sam Mason was working on this for a while. I'm sure, I mean, look, it's obviously it's possible, but the carbonation is only going to be present in the liquid
+
+[58:24] phase. So you're going to have to, the superior your sorbet is, the better the effect of the carbonation is going to be. I mean, I think I think I think you might want to go with the pop rocks.
+
+[58:34] Don't you think that's the easiest way? may well work better. Um, there's a guy, uh, someone on the internet who has a, uh, a site on dry ice ice
+
+[58:43] cream where instead of making, uh, ice cream and liquid nitrogen, which is something Dave and I have been known to do, uh, he puts powdered dry ice into
+
+[58:52] it, and then puts it into, lets it sit. Well, the interesting thing is the carbon dioxide does not get absorbed very much into the ice cream
+
+[59:02] base. A little bit, it does. But it makes a texture that looks almost exactly like white bread. I've done that before with dry ice pellets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the way to make that's not quite the same thing as you're describing. Right. No, no, no, no. But I'm just saying, I've made an ice cream before with the base and dry ice pellets. Okay, cool. I mean, all right. I once made it, by mistake, like a many, many years ago, chilled a base with dry
+
+[59:33] ice, because I found a soft serve machine on the street, and the chilling thing didn't work, and I chilled down the base with dry
+
+[59:39] ice and then froze it soft serve, and it was, it was horrible. First of all, it was the only time I, it was the 1st time in my life, many, many years ago that I had made a large amount of bass at once in a pot by hand, and I curdled the eggs at the bottom. And so it tasted like scrambled egg soda ice cream, but not in a good kind of Heston Blumenthal away, kind of in a really crappy. I messed up the ice cream way. Hello? Yep. Okay. Hey, listen, I appreciate your I appreciate your information and it's been great. It's getting kind of louder on that. Sorry. All right. But I just wanted to tell you real quickly. I think the conversation with Steve Miller was that the old record
+
+[1:00:16] executives sent a younger guy in there and the younger guy told him he had to have a hit record, so Steve Miller kicked back and said, well, how about this? Abracadabra. reach out and grab you. For real? All right, Nathan, what we're talking about here is Steve Miller's worst song is clearly
+
+[1:00:32] Abracadabra. I don't know whether Nathan Whether you're a Steve Miller fan or not, but the worst song Steve Miller ever came up with by far,
+
+[1:00:41] Abracadabra. All right. I'm told that we have one more caller on the air. true? We lost him. If they come back, they come back. Okay, we had a question in from Nedward via eater, Nathan, noted that someone spotted you on an airplane reading the
+
+[1:01:00] modernist cuisine PDFs. Do you plan on selling the PDFs to poor cooks who can't buy the book? Um, You know, I really don't think anyone spotted me on an airplane doing that.
+
+[1:01:12] Hey, look, this is not. This is not me. This is coming in via the internets. Okay, it's true, but just let me say, I've not been in that situation. I can promise you that. So you're not denying that the PDS exists. PDF, in order to, to print the book, PDFs are a key part of the whole printing process. That's how the book gets sent over to the printer in China is this PDF. So, of course, we have PDFs of the book. Um, and we have had, there was a period where we had some reviewers, uh,
+
+[1:01:47] that uh, needed to see the book and we didn't have physical books. So we had a password protected website where reviewers could go read the PDFs. And the result was kind of interesting. Most people found that it was better than nothing, but only a little bit better than nothing. And that the usability was not very good. Uh, I think if we really wanted to make a uh, online or interactive
+
+[1:02:10] or um, iPad version of the book, we'd have to do something a lot more extensive than simply put
+
+[1:02:17] the, the PDFs up there because navigating around those huge photos, navigating around the, the rest of the book is just too hard.
+
+[1:02:24] Right. All right. Let's take, someday, I would like to have an interactive version of the book. Uh, you know, we made a decision 2 years before release as to what platform we would target 1st and we chose paper books because there was no
+
+[1:02:43] iPad and Kindle didn't do color and still doesn't. So you really couldn't have something that would really show off what we were trying to
+
+[1:02:51] do. At some point in the future, We will probably make a interactive version, but it's a lot of work. Well, to get the quality, to get the interaction the same. to get the quality what you want. I mean, you could easily do an online version. I want to have video. Do you want to have animations? Do you want to have good navigation? All of those things take some software development effort or they take a whole bunch more effort in shooting a video. It's not easy to do. The point is, you could do it now, but you can't do it right and you don't want to do it wrong. Exactly. You said it better than I did. Apparently that caller that got dropped is back on the air. take one last call. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hello, this is Daniel from San Jose, California. Howdy. I had a question about, um, Aesthetic marinades in the book on Modernist Cuisine. There's a section on acidic marinade in meat and um, the section talks about how ethics marinades can actually tenderize meat and improve their moisture holding
+
+[1:03:59] capacities. I was, um, interested in, um,
+
+[1:04:03] how, how, you guys came to this conclusion because, um, I haven't noticed that there are others like, um, Harold Mickey, who believes that, um,
+
+[1:04:16] aesthetic marinates only, um, denature protein on the surface of meat.
+
+[1:04:21] Take it away, Nathan. Well, I think there's 2 issues going on here. First of all, marinades only penetrate a certain distance. That's just a fact. And any marinade is only going to work on the surface if you don't need to give it enough time to go in or you don't do something like injection or tumbling or other things to speed it up.
+
+[1:04:44] Now, an acidic marinade, uh, if it's,
+
+[1:04:50] there are many cookbooks that will have an acidic marinade where you put the meat in for a very short period of time, 20 minutes or something like that, that is just a surface
+
+[1:05:00] slavering. And that's fine, if that's the surface flavor you want to get, you just shouldn't think you're going to change the interior of a piece of meat in a 10 or 20 minute
+
+[1:05:08] period. It just isn't going to happen. It takes too long for the diffusion time. But acidic marinade certainly will denature proteins all the way through the meat. If you get the marinade all the way through the meat, and either by waiting long enough, or by using
+
+[1:05:23] injection, or tumbling, or all of the above, you certainly can get that to happen. And similar things, of course, occur with a alkaline marinade. In either case, what you're trying to do is take the meat proteins into a regime, whether or not
+
+[1:05:43] normally, um, uh, present in meat. So you either make it much more acidic or much more alkaline. And either one causes some of the proteins to break down. And depending on the context, that could be desirable. But I promise you it'll work all the way through if you inject it or, um, uh,
+
+[1:06:00] or tumble it, or simply wait long enough or have your meat be thin enough. All right, thank you. Well, there you have it. And uh, I would like to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer, guy name, Josh writes in and asks where he can get
+
+[1:06:15] high-proof liquor in England because he wants to do, uh, like infusions and wants to know if you really need the high-proof liquor. Answer, Josh. Yes, you can't buy Everclear in England, though. They don't sell it. Look for spiritous vodka out of Poland, at the whiskey exchange, or look for stro, rum from Austria, the original 80%. That'll float your infusion boat. I have many, many thanks. Thank you, Nathan, for spending this last hour with us. I think people really enjoyed it. Hopefully you'll come on again sometime. Modernist cuisine, the greatest series of cookbooks ever written cooking issues. Thank you.
+
+[1:06:58] Vicious fish vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight Fishes, fish is vodka. Oh, you dirty rat. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. I had a chance to swap you. For a little gym. Every spring at the end of kidding season, goat dairies across the country are faced with a question of what to do with their male buck lanes. Because on a dairy farm, there's no role for a male. Often, the most economical thing for these farmers to do is to call the animals at birth or ship them off to the commodity market. Heritage Foods USA is embarking on a new project, no goat left behind, looking to step in and fill this niche by creating a marketplace for these
+
+[1:08:20] mail bucklings. Visit us at www.heritagefoodsusa.com to learn more and to reserve your goat this coming October. New York Night Train, Summer Soul Shindig, Rockaway Beach Party, featuring the 45 RPM Soul Magic of
+
+[1:08:40] DJ Jonathan Tobin. Saturday, August 20th, 6 to 9 at Rippers, Boardwalk 86, free party.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching heritage radio network in the iTunes store. The following program has been brought to you by King Vineyard and Winery, Kane Vineyard and
+
+[0:31] Winery, supports Heritage Radio, and the growing movement to change how Americans eat, and how we think about our planet. For more information, visit
+
+[0:38] www.cane5.com.
+
+[0:48] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you from roughly 12 to 1245 every Tuesday here in the studio with Nastasia
+
+[1:07] to Hammer Lopez. We're coming to you from the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. So listen, Nastasia, what's the telephone number to call in? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. 2128? Yes. Good. Just so you know, that's kind of a thing. I can't remember the dang telephone number to this place. When it comes to scyogenic glycosides? I'm there for you buddies, but with the telephone number, can't help. Listen, we have a call around the air, so let's go right to it. Hi, Dave. Hey, how you doing? Good. I've got a two-part question. First one, I'm in London. Where should I go for drinks? Well, that's easy. Before you even go any further. That is simple. Anywhere that my friend, Tony Cunnellaro, is involved. You should go immediately for drinks, the one that I go to all the time is 69, excuse me, I biked here
+
+[2:03] at about a 1000 miles an hour, so my throat's a little scratchy. So 69, Colebrook Row. It's in Islington. It's like a 10 minute walk from the Angel tube stop. I can't believe I said tube stop on the air. Uh, and uh, what else did you like when we were there? Nostalgia, where'd you go? Oh, I don't remember. I wasn't with you most the time. Well, that might work because I work quite close to the angels tube stop. And now he said it twice on the air. Right. So what I said there, what point should I get? Anything. Here's the thing about it. Like that, I, 9 times out of 10. Tony's a friend of mine. So when I go, I typically don't pay, which means I don't go anywhere else. So I've had most of my drinks there. That said, I mean, have we been to Hicks? Apologize, man, I have to bike here earlier. It's just, seriously, I was breaking my neck to make it here because I was researching stuff, so I have something caught in my
+
+[3:03] throat. I didn't have time to get it out, so I apologize again. Uh, so Tony is a, it runs a very interesting bar there. He also has a new hotel bar, but I don't know what it is. I thought he has a lab than the Pink Floyd Studios, the old Pink Floyd Studios. Really? I think the drinks also might be interesting. There's new restaurant, um, in, excuse me. Remind me never to do this again. Always give myself 5 minutes before we start to, uh, no matter how late I am to get whatever's in my throat out of my throat. So, Quince, the new restaurant, I think, has some interesting drinks as well. and hicks, but Tony uses high-tech stuff, like rotary evaporators, centrifuge, but you would never know it in his bar, because the bar is like a little tiny, like neighborhood
+
+[3:50] bar, they just happen to serve some of the best drinks in the country. And it's not me saying that. like, constantly, like, one of the best people, but, like, whatever they're making, my trick
+
+[3:59] is I always walk in, again, say, bartender's choice. What do you want to make? And then typically, you know, if you, if you, if you tell them that your game, for whatever they're going to make, typically they will make you something
+
+[4:11] interesting if the, if, you know, if you're like, I really like tasteless vodka drinks,
+
+[4:16] well, then they'll size you up and they'll give you something. I mean, Tony will still give you something good. And all of his people are good, but you know what I'm saying. A bartender's choice is always the best choice. Right, but can I say bartender's choice, preferably with whiskey? Sure, yeah, sure. Yeah, that's perfectly respectable. I mean, look, they're actually one of those great places where they're not going to make you feel bad
+
+[4:34] there, for whatever you drink. They're not they're not snobs that way, even though they're some of the best people in the business. Um, but, yeah, you, I mean, you know, definitely, typically what I'll do is I'll say, uh, you know, your choice. I'm feeling kind of like a brown liquor today or maybe I'll say whiskey or something like that. And they can, they, they have all things there, but they do a lot of really interesting stuff. And they have a piano and certain nights there's tranny bands playing. Even better. All right, so the 2nd part of the question is, what are your feelings on water chestnuts? Ah, interesting. Water chestnuts. Okay, so my wife detests water chestnuts. So do I. Really? I like them. For her, it's a textural thing. And, uh, you know, at one point I said to her, look, uh, maybe
+
+[5:21] to say you don't like canned water chestnuts and you grew up eating canned water chestnuts, so I made them fresh. She's like, no, I hate these too. And I was like, oh, is it similar for you? Is it a textural issue? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really add anything in taste. I don't like the crispiness of it. I pick them out of every food and I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone thinks it adds anything to a recipe. What do you think, Sashi? I bet you hate them too, Nastasia. I used to like him as a kid. I hate that. Yeah, nostalgia hates most things, though. Yeah, you know, you and my wife are in the same camp. I'd like to, I kind of like, they have a very unique, um, okay, so the texture is crispy in the way that a raw potato is crispy, but without that raw potato
+
+[5:59] flavor. So if you like the texture of a raw potato, but
+
+[6:04] not that raw starchy flavor. Then a water chestnut seems like it's a good bet for you. If you don't like that texture, I think you're going to be in trouble. Would you agree or no? No, I agree. I... I mean, I'm not looking for a raw potato texture either, I guess. Right. And water chestnuts and certain other things that grow in the water like that can have parasitic worms in them. I think it's worms. Maybe it's a bacteria. I forget. So you need to cook your water chestnuts before you before you eat them, if you get them fresh. So don't, you know, eat them raw. Well, you should eat them at all because you don't like them. But here's a, here's a good, um, thing that uh, Nils Norin always used to get uh, water chestnut flour. And he said that for dusting a fish and frying,
+
+[6:47] he loves water chestnut flour. And I think that's a trick he picked up when he was working in China. What are chestnut flowers not so easy to come by here in the US. I don't know about the UK, but it's definitely available. So maybe there is a use for water chestnut for you yet. Well, I'll look into it. And one final thing, Dave. actually Brady. Brady. Oh, this is my cousin Brady. I didn't know you hated it. I didn't know you hated water chestnut water chestnuts. Brady actually. Oh, and they keep showing up in the Thai dishes here. I'm like, why do people do that? It's ruining the dish for me. And I thought I'd ask you. Well, this is interesting that I unrelated, you know, just where family by, you know, by marriage, my wife and Brady and me, actually. But the 2 people in the family, they hate water chest. the only 2 people I know are people who regularly come to my house. When you're coming back to the states. But that's good because Jeff Jen hates them, then that means you will not make them while I'm there. Correct. Go to Tony's bar or I'll kill you and you never invited to my house again. No, I'm going there it after work. So I thought I'd call. All right, cool. Thanks a lot. All right. All right, listen. I'm going to recover my throat, and we can take the 1st commercial break, come back, and I'll answer some email questions. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's... Bicycle.
+
+[8:08] I want to ride my bicycle. I want to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle. Why won't you ride it where I lie? I say, why? I say bite, you say shot. I said, hey, man, Jaws was never my scene, and I don't like Star Wars. I say Royce. Give me a choice. I say, Christ, I don't believe in Peter Pan, Frankenstein or Superman. All I wanna do is life. I want to ride my bicycle. I
+
+[8:48] want to ride my bicycle. I want to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride my bicycle, races are coming always. So forget all your duties on here. And welcome back to cooking issues. I am almost fully recovered. You know, I must have swallowed something when I was riding over here. Just give you an idea of what you're dealing with when you're biking from Manhattan to Brooklyn. I passed by a concrete factory on my way over here and a giant, you know, what are those things called with the big thing in front, the scoops, the bulldozer. A bulldozer dumps an entire bulldozer, like, you know, shovel load of dirty concrete
+
+[9:35] water basically on my bike as I'm biking past them. That's Brooklyn. Anyway, call on your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We're going to be here for a little while because I got some email questions to answer. All right, by the way, we have this new kind of thing. People just call in with kind of information and shout outs. Have you noticed that recently? We've gotten a lot of people just writing in with some info? Yeah. All right. Well, so here's some info. For those of you who are in the New York area, and don't have a job. or who have a nighttime job. Tom Metcalf says there's a really good movie that you should look at at the moment today. It's a Museum of Modern Art. Giro Dreams of Sushi is basically it's playing at today, I think, August 23rd today, right? Yeah, 4 p.m. at MOMA. And the film is about Jiro Onne, the best Jiro Ono, the best, the best. I mean, I hate the best. But, like, you know, one of the world's most renowned sushi chefs in Japan, in Tokyo. And Chronicles his lifelong complete devotion to becoming ever better at his craft. And Tom believes that I have made some comments that suggest I would admire his work,
+
+[10:41] ethic. seen it. You seen it? Was it good? It was good. Compare it to the Faran Adria movie. Faran Adria was a bit better. Relatable, I guess. Right. Well, so we actually had the filmmakers on a taste of the past episode 60 for those who want to
+
+[10:56] hear. Please go please go listen to that. Now here's the thing. listeners to this show are kind of specialized. They have specialized interests, right? So I went to go see that, what's the name of the front Adrian movie that we did the event for? What it called? Um... It's the movie about Faran Adrian. Anyway. It's uh, so some reviewers have criticized. basically just food porn and how much can you, how long can you sit and watch Faran tasting different pieces of
+
+[11:27] food? This is a valid criticism for someone who's not interested in the process of making
+
+[11:31] food, right? So, uh, I went to go see it, and I thought it was extremely interesting because it gives you an insight into the way
+
+[11:39] that uh, Elbuy and Furan, how they work, how they cook, how their process is. And as a cook, as someone is interested in cooking, to me, that's extremely valuable because Faran is clearly at
+
+[11:54] the very top of his game at the top of the field in what he
+
+[11:58] does. So, it would be extremely interesting, I think, very, very worthwhile. For anyone interested in Japanese cooking techniques, which I am extremely, you know, interested in, and I wish I could go to it today because I would, but
+
+[12:12] unfortunately I can't drop what I'm doing this afternoon and go, I'm sure I'll see it eventually, it's very difficult to get an insight into Japanese cooking techniques
+
+[12:21] because the mode of learning in many high-end Japanese kitchens is one of
+
+[12:28] years of careful observation without much explanation. Let's put it that way. And so really the only way to learn what they're doing. You're never, you know, you're never going to learn what you're doing, right, because you have to sit there for, you know, 2 years, you know, washing the rice before they let you cook it or whatever, whatever the old, you know, the old things
+
+[12:48] are. But, um, in a Japanese, really any cooking demonstration. Don't, who cares what they're saying? Don't pay any attention because 9 times out of ten, they're not telling you what's really going on anyway. Pay attention to their hands. Pay attention to the ingredients they're using. Pay attention to the way their hands move. Uh, and these kinds of things are going to give you a big clue as to what
+
+[13:12] is uh, what is actually going on in the food. So, and this is why videos and live demonstrations from top notch people are so valuable to watch. And so the ability to see in a movie, Someone like this working is invaluable. So I do I do hope to see it. And it can almost be, I mean, it can't be silent because I have to hear what the ingredients are, what's going on, but the explanation and any sort of plot or arc or
+
+[13:40] narrative, I really could care less. Uh, and, and I shouldn't probably say that gets a mean thing to say, but you know what, you know what I'm saying? like, for me, it's going to be valuable either way. Do you think it did, who do you see it with? Mark, we're talking Mark Ladner from Del Posto. Would he find it valuable? Yeah, he did. Yeah, I bet. Mark likes fish, Mark likes to push a fish. Mark used to get in those whole kindai tunas butcher them up and send them back. Anyway, so very valuable for anyone interested in learning something about Japanese cooking. Yeah? Yeah. So thank you, Tom, for writing in that information. Another interesting piece of little tidbit comes from Steve Crandall via the Wall Street Journal. They had an article called Scooped. and here's something I'd never heard of, fracking. Have you heard of fracking before? I mean, other than that, I'm gonna, okay, yes, I have heard of fracking from Battlestar Galactica. Yes, I have seen a new Battlestar Galactica thing. But I hadn't heard of fracking the term, and fracking is basically hydraulic fracturing. So what you do is you're drilling for oil or whatever. You drill a pipe, way the hell down into whatever you're going to do, and then you put a huge pressure on it to fracture the rock under there, and then you pump
+
+[14:46] in, uh, junk, like sand or whatever to allow whatever you're trying to get, oil to filter through that and you
+
+[14:53] get it. It's a way of getting more oil or water or whatever out of it, but a lot of people are pissed off about it because it can, you know, pump poison into the
+
+[15:01] aquifer, stuff like that. You know, anyway. So, I will read the Wall Street Journal thing because it has to do with Guargum, Guargum. Fracking has a new victim, ice cream. Oh, oh, I was just handed by Jack a no frack button. Jack, I didn't realize that we were an anti-fractor. That doesn't represent my opinion. somebody left that here. Oh, so in other words, some of our hosts and our guests are anti-fract folk. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Well, apparently they're frat, this is anti-fract button from the CatskillCitizens.org. So presumably there's some fracking, whole lot of fracking going on up in the Catskills. presumably for water and not for oil. Anyway. Uh, fracking has a new victim, ice cream, hydraulic fracturing, this uh, fracturing, the sometimes controversial oil and gas drilling method, is causing tremors in a small but vital corner of the food industry. This is I'm reading verbatim for the Wall Street Journal. Guargum, produced mainly in India, helps thicken foods ranging from ketchup to ice cream. The problem is it's also mighty useful in fracking fluid. Fracking fluid is the fluid that they pump, pump, pump into the, into these places to actually cause the pressure to fraction them. With the surge in fracking, demand for guargum has rocketed. Having often languished under ¢50 per pound, Guargum has recently changed hands at over $3. Uh, and so this is going to cause problems because they use a lot of guar. Uh, in in ice cream. And the reason they use Guar is because Guar is cheap. The guar is from a seed, and it's very similar to another product called locust bean gum. Locust bean gum is actually, for a lot of applications, better, but because locust bean gum doesn't have a kind of taste. Most guar is kind of crappy tasting. It tastes kind of crap. It has a beanie. a beanie taste, kind of like eating black eyed pee flour, if you've ever done that. I don't know. I don't know why you would. I have many times. Anyway, uh, so, uh, they, you know, TIC gums, the good people from TIC gums make
+
+[16:55] something called flavor free guar, which is awesome. And Guar and Gelan, another hydrocolate is what we use to make the stretchy ice cream that I like so well. But Guar has been cheap. So if Guar prices go up, good for the poor sons of guns that have to sit there and harvest
+
+[17:11] Guar. You know what I mean? Good for them. You know, if we have to pay, like, you know, a nickel more for our, First of all, $3 a pound. Let's put this in perspective, what $3 a pound means for a guar. So you're going to have well under, well under a half, one half of one% of
+
+[17:29] glar in your ice cream. Okay? So we're talking that, uh, you know, a minuscule amount, cost-wise, increase in uh, your ice cream. So if all of a sudden, a bunch of people in the oil industry. And I'm not saying, I'm not pro frac, not pro frat here, but, uh,
+
+[17:48] you know, if some poor sucker in India gets
+
+[17:53] more for their glar seeds as a result of this, God bless
+
+[17:57] them. I'll pay the extra five tenths of a penny for my ice cream. Does this make any sense, Nasasha? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right. All right. Guar, yeah, I like Guar. I mean, it's interesting. Our good friend Paul Adams from Popular Science. He writes mainly for their online, but I think he's going to be doing something in the magazine as well. Uh, he did a nice write-up of the Glenn Livett uh, experiment I did in New Orleans where I was
+
+[18:22] separate, separating Glenn Livit Scotch into uh, Oak and Spirits, and, yeah, you can read about it on popscience.com. Anyway, he writes in that popular science is doing some challenges and maybe some of our readers are interested. So the idea is, is that some knucklehead, and the website is
+
+[18:38] innocentive.com, innocentive, C-E-N-T, like innovation, incentive, innocentive.com. So they basically offer an award. And the idea is, is that any knucklehead who wants to can write in, and, you know, propose a solution to the problems. And if you win, you get either $10,000 or a chunk of that
+
+[18:59] $10,000. And the guaranteed minimum, the guaranteed minimum, like maximum, how am I going to put this? So the, the, there will be someone who gets at least $5,000. They might get the full 10,000 and they are going to give $10,000 away. Makes sense now? All right. So this one here is, and this one, by the way, is the one he sent us. Ari has 373 people who have signed up with solutions. Most of them I'm sure suck. Come on. Oh, come on, most things in the world are bad, so why wouldn't most of the solutions to this problem be bad? The problem is, over time, low fat batter for baked product sticks to the baking surface of aluminum baking pans. No duh. Right? I didn't mean it that way. The stuck batter burns and must be removed from the baking service. The seeker, that's the company here, is looking for creative ideas for reducing either the adhesion of battery to the baking
+
+[19:49] service or for improving the speed and efficiency of the cleaning process, and more information is available from their challenge description. And so basically, they want you to come up with a new release agent or a non-stick baking service or a new way of cleaning, but you only have a couple more days to solve that problem.
+
+[20:04] Presumably they're going to have more of these. I have a solution. Add some freaking fat to the batter. You know what I mean? Add some freaking fat. What is the problem with having a little fat? Here's the thing, right? I'm not going to answer the question. What? You're gonna help them out. No, they're not going they're not going to add fat to it because they want to make a low fat product and therein lies their
+
+[20:22] problem. Therein lies the problem. Look, wires a waffle batter different from a pancake batter? Hint. It has more fat in it so that you can get it off of the waffle iron. right? When you have fat in these things, right? Typically, if you're a normal human being and you're not paying attention to what's going on, you eat slightly less of
+
+[20:42] it and you're slightly more satisfied because there's more fat in it and you get more seated. The idea that you, I mean, like, you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying like have your baked goods swimming in Greece like a Popeye's biscuit, which are also delicious, even though you don't like Popeye's biscuits? I don't like biscuits. You don't like biscuits? Jack, help me out here. You don't like biscuits? People, people. This is what I'm dealing with. The 1st person I've ever heard say that they don't like biscuits. Yeah, you know what else, Jack? Like, this is very interesting. She'll like later on, she won't say it on the air, but she'll be like, it's because I'm so discriminating. What? Do you say things like, I don't like peanuts because I have a more discriminating palate? No, it's not that I can't discriminate a peanut. It's that they're delicious. Biscuits are delicious. Okay, we need to talk about this for a minute. Like, even if even if I can't answer all the questions, what is it you don't like about a biscuit? I don't like how dry and flaky they. I... Well, why don't you put butter on the biscuit? No, I still I just, I really don't like biscuits. I like bread. I also like bread. I don't like biscuits. I see, here's another thing. like this pack. It's nothing like hardtack. Hardtack is a form of biscuit similar to a beaten biscuit, which is nowhere near like the standard biscuit that we eat. First of all, there are fluffy biscuits and there are flaky biscuits. And a huge range in between, depending on the hydration ratio and how they're mixed and how they're formed. Okay. So let's just start there. And then, like, this is a kind of a classic thing that I don't understand. And so, like, you know, if anyone ever, you know, tries to analyze, like,
+
+[22:20] the relate, the working relationship here, here's what I don't get. I don't like biscuits because I like bread. What she leaves off is like an implicit instead. Like, I like bread instead of biscuits. I can have in a single meal, I would consume several slices of bread. And then Jor I handed a biscuit. I would also consume several biscuits. Jack, back me up on this. I uh, he doesn't want to get in. He doesn't want to get into it. anyway, don't like biscuits. Don't like biscuits. I love biscuits. Yeah, biscuits are good. I like a flaky biscuit. especially the biscuits at Roberta's. They are good. Seriously, that's not even promotion. biscuits. I can't remember. Do they do a flaky or a... We'll have to give you guys. We'll get YouTube biscuits. Yeah, please. That'd be great. And we'll talk about them next time. Anyway, my saying is just add a little bit of fat to your baked goods and cook it a little bit less. Whether it's a waffle or some sort of, you know, you're not going to cook biscuit in an iron, obviously. Like maybe it's cornbread or something and they're trying to reduce the amount of fat and cornbread? Absurd. Absurd. Absurd. Okay. Uh, not really. Look, I'm sure there's many people who think it's a good idea to reduce the fat in their baked goods. I just happen to think they're wrong. They are wrong. Just eat less. Just eat less. Right. Just eat less and be more satisfied with a better product. Right? Although apparently this is marketing that hasn't worked. People just eat, then they're like, oh, it's okay to eat high fat, so they just eat more of it. By the way, we spoke to a person, uh, this last week named Pat Brown, and uh, Pat Brown is a
+
+[23:55] doctor, and it is, uh, has a company out in, um, in the San Francisco Bay Area, and he's interested in making, uh, basically not meat analogs, but things that someone would choose over
+
+[24:10] meat. In other words, that they, they, they are a viable main source of protein that are
+
+[24:17] built, not just as a protein that, you know, has crap sprayed on it that kind of resembles meat, but
+
+[24:24] it actually engineered from the ground up to be delicious, such that someone who is a meat
+
+[24:29] eater would choose it based on its taste. And it's inherent low cost over meat. What do you think? Okay. Anyway, next time I'm out in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'm going to visit it. But he's the only person I've spoken to who wants to do plant-based, and he has kind of an interesting philosophy. He wants to put all meat and dairy farmers,
+
+[24:53] literally, he'll say this. He wants to put them out of business. He's like, he's like, you know, to make an omelette, you got to crack a few eggs. The world's going to be around for a long time and these guys are hurting the planet. So even if it hurts them right now, you know, you know, you can't you can't help out someone now at the expense of killing your grandkids, which is basically...
+
+[25:11] Yes, he's vegetarian. But he doesn't necessarily want, he doesn't want to make, he doesn't want to beat you over the head and have you become a vegetarian because he's a vegetarian.
+
+[25:19] He wants you to buy this plant-based food because it's so freaking delicious and so cheap that it's what you want to
+
+[25:27] do. See what I'm saying? So it's an interesting reversal, and it seems like an interesting guy. I can't wait to go out there and meet him. Okay. Have a question in from Priscilla Andrews regarding transglutaminates noodles. And I'm going to have to apologize in advance, Priscilla, I don't have the answer for you right now, but the question is, what is the starting ratio
+
+[25:47] and using meat glue and gelatin to glue fruits and vegetables together, any help is appreciated? Okay, so what we're talking about here is using transglutaminase, meat glue, which is an enzyme that bonds proteins together,
+
+[26:01] to make gelatin into something that won't melt when it's reheated.
+
+[26:08] So this is a technique that was developed by my brother-in-law, Wiley
+
+[26:12] Dufrayne, of WD 50 restaurant, where what you do is, you take gelatin, right? normally gelatin. When you heat it, it melts, and when it cools down again, it turns back into a gel. If you take transglutaminase and mix it in with the gelatin. The gelatin cross links, and now it no longer melts again. So it sets and never again will it melt. And so Wiley uses this technique to, basically, uh, make noodles out of anything. So quinoa, peas, uh, peanut butter, things that you can't normally glue together, uh, or can't normally make a sheet or a noodle out of. He can make one out of that can be fried, toss like a pasta, anything. So basically, the trick with it is, is, and I would start with about one% trans,
+
+[27:04] I'm making this up because I don't have the recipe in front of me and Herve Malivare, who runs the, who runs the tech stuff when I'm not at the, at the French
+
+[27:11] culinary. He has the recipe because Wiley came and demoed it once and I just keep them forgetting to write it down. But I would bet it's somewhere about one% transgutaminates, not Activa RM, which is meat glue plus
+
+[27:24] casing, milk protein, but Activa TI, which is just the meat glue.
+
+[27:29] And the reason is, is because you want gelatin to link to other gelatin. If gelatin links to a casing molecule, that doesn't increase the gel strength, okay? And also, if you're gluing together a veg or something that has a lot of protein in it,
+
+[27:46] right, like peanut butter or something, you don't want the gelatin bonding to the protein from your product either.
+
+[27:52] So, uh, what you what you want to do, and, uh, John McGee, Harold's son, who's one of the TAs in the lecture series up at Harvard, the food lecture series, which I'm going to be doing with
+
+[28:04] Harold, uh, on September, what? 6 and 8th, and there's a public lecture for those as well, right? Yeah, I think there's a public lecture in the evening after the students go there. So his son did like a couple days stage with Wiley to figure out this problem of what's the best way to do it.
+
+[28:19] And, of course, I forgot. But basically what you do is, is you make a paste, you dehydrate it to get a lot of the water out. You don't want it to be too watery. Then you make a gel slurry and use however much gelatin you would normally use to set what you're doing. I think that's a good starting point or maybe a little more. Well, it's warm, but not hot. gel, the gelatin. Mix in transgutaminates Activa TI, right? Let it sit for several minutes to start cross-linking, you know, while it's warm. And then whisk that together with your product, sheet it
+
+[28:51] out and let it sit overnight in the fridge, at which point it should be set. I wish I had a better information for the starting ratios. All right, so we're going to take one more commercial break and come back and answer some questions. Call in your questions, two. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. That's a pretty good Dave impression. Thank you
+
+[29:34] We had your leaving That's okay.
+
+[29:43] I thought a little wild time had just begun. I guess you kind of scared yourself. You turn and run. But if you had a change of heart. Ricky don't lose that number. You don't wanna call nobody out. Send it off in a letter to yourself. Ricky don't lose that number. It's the only one you want. Uh, Jack and Nastasia making fun of me for not being able to remember the dang number of the radio station and furthermore making fun of me for the early one, the
+
+[30:43] Aranto ride my bicycle for my constant bike problems here in the city. Thanks, guys. Thanks. appreciate the support. Yeah. All right. Caller. You were on the air. Hi, Dave. I have a question about gum Arabic and simple syrups. I'm in the New York area and I'm looking to pick some up. And also, I'd like to just know how to add it to simple syrup, like a just, you know, one cup water, one cup
+
+[31:06] sugar, how much to put in? Okay. So, it's interesting. We're going to pick it up in, if you want, if you're in the New York, if New York City, I believe uh, Kalustians uh, on Lexington in the 20s has it, um, if they don't have it, there's a place called dual specialty shop down in uh, where is it, 1st
+
+[31:26] Avenue Avenue A, down near Death and Co, the bar. That's how I remember where it is. It's close to Death and Co. and it's downstairs, they might have it. If not, there's plenty of mail order supplies for gum Arabic, but one of those 2 places would be the 1st places that I would go in the city to
+
+[31:41] get them. Get it Now, um, gum Arabic is very interesting because, uh, as a hydrocolloid, and you know, hydrocolloids for those of you that don't know what the heck I'm talking about, or kind of these new group of thickeners, uh, what's interesting about it is most hydrocolloids are uh,
+
+[31:57] long uh, linear chain molecules with a small number of backbones on it, right?
+
+[32:02] A small number of little side units, rather. Um, The gum Arabic is the only normal
+
+[32:09] one other than uh, a millopectin, which is the big bald starch molecule. that is ball shaped, right? And so what that means for gum Arabic is that you can have very high percentage gum Arabic solutions that aren't too
+
+[32:25] thick, right? So you can put a fairly high percentage of gum
+
+[32:30] Arabic into your solutions and still have them be portable fluid, right? The other cool thing about gum Arabic. Is gum Arabic has in it a protein, that is basically, it comes with the gum, and originally was considered an impurity. But when you remove the gum the protein from the gum Arabic. The gum Arabic doesn't work anymore, uh, to do what you want it to do because gum Arabic isn't just a thickener, although it is a bodying agent,
+
+[32:57] right? And when you add a lot of it, it can add a lot of body viscosity to your syrup. It's also an emulsifier, so you can get flavors into things using it and it's pretty cool because unlike other emulsifiers, when it's diluted, it doesn't break. And that's why it used to be made for, it used to be used to, as an emulsifier for soda syrups. Now they have other things that are, you know, not necessarily dependent upon the
+
+[33:21] Sudan for their sourcing. But the, and are cheaper, but that was one of its original uses. So it could probably also stabilize ahead in a shake and drink or stabilize bubbles in a shake and drink. So it's very interesting. I don't happen to have any of the ratios in my head. But what I would do is put the gum Arabic into the water first. It should dissolve, I believe, at room temperature, but you can heat it to speed it.
+
+[33:50] It's not going to hurt it at all, right? I would try to powder the gum Arabic as much as you can beforehand to speed the dissolution of it. And then after that, you know, you could heat it, add the sugar to it, make, I would definitely do it that way, not the other way around. I would add the gum Arabic first, and then add the sugar afterwards. And you can add you can add a fairly large amount, but I would look into like any one, you know, all the old references have
+
+[34:15] it. I think maybe the imbibe, the old, you know, the Dave Wondridge, the first, you know, the imbibe book. I think maybe has a couple recipes before, but that one's easy to Google. I just don't have it in my head. Alright, thanks, Dave. No problem. good luck with it Alright, thank you. Bye. All right. So, I see what we're going to go into now. Okay, we have a question from E. Papineau just wrote in. I want to know about smoking tomatoes. Well, I've never smoked a tomato. Yeah. Have you ever had a smoked tomato? I've had smoked tomato things. Yeah, no. I've never smoked a tomato. But in general, when you're smoking something. The rule is, is that, I mean, I don't know where you're going to pick up color or not, but you're going to want to get, it's somewhat dry and tacky, not overly wet. You're obviously going to want to peel the tomatoes, uh, or at very least kind of split, but I would peel them and semi-desiccate them, like partially dry them first. Then after they're partially dry, then I would smoke them and then finish the drying out. I mean, I wouldn't, you know, tomato, when you're smoking something, smoking has certain kind of preservative effects and bacteria static effects and things like that, but really with a
+
+[35:23] tomato. It's just, it's got a huge water content. And so to preserve it, you're really going to want to just reduce that water content. And so that's going to be the main preservation technique. If you want the smoke flavor to pick up, you don't want it too heavy or to become acrid, I would just make sure that they're mostly, you know, maybe
+
+[35:39] uh, two-thirds to three-quarters dry, then smoke them until they pick up the flavor that you want and then continue your dehydration
+
+[35:47] uh, at a low temperature uh, so you don't alter the flavor too much from that point out. That seems like good advice, right? Yes. The rare piece of good advice. Okay, Derek Bodkin. Like that name. Bodkin? I can like that. Derek Bodkin writes in about rice flour. You know, I have botkins in my family. Really? Yes. Anyway, Derek Vodkin writes in on rice flour. Hi everyone. Another quick question. I've got a bunch of rice flour. What sort of cool things can I do with it? Since it lacks gluten, right? I'd imagine baking with it would be tricky. How about a rue? All right. Well, interesting you should say. There's no such thing as just rice flour, right? I mean, there is. It's labeled that way. But basically rice flour breaks down into 2 separate kinds of things. There's glutenous rice flour, a.k.a. sweet rice flour, a.k.a. waxy rice flour, a.k.a. sticky rice flour, right? And that's rice flour that's made from what they call glutenous rice. And what glutenous rice is, it has no gluten, but it's very high, very low in amylose, the long chain starch molecules, I told
+
+[36:56] you before, and extremely high, like 100% a millopectin. And what those are, what that kind of flower is great for is making mochi. And mochi, you know, you don't have to make it into flour. I can make mochi from just from sticky rice, which is kind of the cool way to do it, right? And, you know, the really cool way to do is to get sumo wrestler dudes and loincloths beating it with mallets after you cook it. That's a real cool way to make moji. But most of us are just going to buy glutenous rice flour or mochi flour they sell. If you really want the high grade stuff, buy stuff called mochi flour. And you mix it, and the cool thing is, is it's got this dense flavor, but you can grill it or fry it, and it puffs up like a lunatic. Amilopectin is fantastic at puffing. Whether or not it's a, you know, semi-dried, and then it puffs like a puff snack or whether or not it's just like in a donut form. If you ever had a mochi donut, like Japanese mochis donut. Great. anyway. So that's one form of rice flour. And then the other one is, you know, rice flour that has a certain amount of, um, uh, amylose in it. Now, and that's what you use for most other kind of cooking applications.
+
+[38:01] So in terms of thickening for making a roux, right? So Ru, we typically think of with wheat flour. Now, wheat flour is kind of the weakest of the flowers in terms of thickening. Rice is rice flour is going to thicken a little bit more than wheat flour, corn a little bit more than rice, arrowroot, a little bit more than corn, and potato the most, starch.
+
+[38:20] The problem with something like potato starch. And the reason we don't use it more often is even though it makes things super thick, as you cook it, it breaks down very quickly,
+
+[38:27] right? Cornstarch also has problems because it gets thick, really real fast and it's going to stay thick, but when it cools down, it sets up a lot harder than when it was hot, whereas wheat starch is a little less finicky that way than corn.
+
+[38:39] But rice is kind of in between the corn and the wheat, and we'll work fine for a roux, especially if you want to do something that's gluten free, if that's interested, interesting to you. It should work just fine. It's also used a lot in deep frying as either a portion of your
+
+[38:58] batter or as a dusting beforehand. The reason it's used is because it doesn't have any gluten. It makes things very crispy without making them hard, right? Because it doesn't have the kind of the protein that forms together you get from a wheat flour. So adding a certain amount of white rice, you know, neutral white rice
+
+[39:15] flour to a batter recipe is going to increase the crispy
+
+[39:20] crunchiness, but not the hardness of the batter. So Heston Blumenthal uses it in his fish and chips recipe. A lot of Thai recipes have it. And you can make, actually, almost like puffed crispy snacks just by making a rice batter and frying it. And it's good as a garnish. I mean I wouldn't necessarily eat it on its own. In bread baking, you can add a certain amount of bread to round out the wheat flour and reduce the amount of wheat in there slightly, although I don't really see the point in
+
+[39:48] that. But it is used as a dusting for almost like an anti-stick, along with flour in the same way that cornmeal is used for. So it can be used that way. Another interesting thing you might want to look at is something that I used to make like a long time ago. When I was rating my mom's cookbooks, uh, one of the 1st cookbooks I rated, I started making bread uh, in college in a, uh, they
+
+[40:11] used, uh, General Electric or Westinghouse, I forget, used to sell turkey ovens, and they're basically like large crock pots that you cook turkeys in for
+
+[40:18] Thanksgiving. And in the 50s and 60s, these were used because you wanted to be able to use your oven for something else and cook your turkey on your countertop. And it kind of fell out of popularity probably because they probably don't make a good turkey. I don't know. I never cooked a turkey one, but I picked one up for about 2 bucks at a thrift shop when I was in college and used it to bake bread in my dorm room. And one of the 1st books I stole from my mom was her 1977 copy of the Sunset
+
+[40:43] bread baking book. And which at the time, I thought was a pretty good book. And they had something in it called Dutch Crunch, which is a bread coating, bread treat, crust treatment that I've never seen really around, but I'm sure people still make it, but it's really cool and it's a rice flour trick.
+
+[40:59] So here's what you do. You take, and I'm sorry it's in tablespoons, but I just wrote it down this morning from the book. one. 5 tablespoons sugar. I still kept the book. I stole it, you know, 20 change years ago, more than 20 years ago and I still have it. Anyway, uh, one. 5 tablespoons sugar, 4 packs of yeast. right? Which is a lot. Pay attention at 4 packs. Half teaspoons salt, 3 quarters cup rice flour, 2 teaspoons of oil, and basically a half to
+
+[41:26] 2 thirds cup warm water. Let it stir it, let it rise for 30 minutes, and you paint it on your bread before you bake it, and it gets
+
+[41:31] this, like, intensely thick, crunchy, like, funny look in, but delicious
+
+[41:36] crust, crust called Dutch crunch. So try that out. Derek, and tell me how it works. All right. So, have an interesting, and this is one of the reasons I was late because this is what I was researching and time just ran away from
+
+[41:50] me. Hastings from the underground bar, which is a portion of the underground food collective, writes in about cherry pits. We're processing what's essentially a palette's worth of cherries at our prep kitchen right now, and I'm sitting on an insane quantity of cherry pits. We've made delicious demonstration batches of cherry pit amaretto with brandy and a relatively high concentration of cherry pits, but I'm generally aware of the risks associated with the pits of stone
+
+[42:14] fruit, and haven't been able to find a concrete source that conclusively outlines how they can be manipulated or processed to eliminate that risk prior to infusion.
+
+[42:22] Varying sources say roasting or blanching the pits takes care of the problem. I assume, if a method works for one variety of stone pits, it would be applicable to the others as well. Could I weigh in on this? Earlier this week, Hastings emailed Darcy O'Neill to ask the same
+
+[42:36] question because Darcy had a recipe for infused maraschino liqueur that involved the pits of the
+
+[42:40] maraschino cherry. They're not really whatever the cherries are called. Anyway, the cherry, cherry pits. It's an aside in a larger post on preserving cocktail cherries. The problem is the amaretto that Hastings is making and some of the other applications they've been toying with involve pit concentrations that are 20 to 100 times greater than the recipe Darcy referenced.
+
+[43:00] Okay, Darcy O'Neill, for those of you not, uh, who don't know cocktail blogs, uh, is one of the great, uh, like scientific technical, uh, drink and cocktail
+
+[43:10] writers wrote a book called uh, Fix the Pumps, which is extremely influential over the last year and a
+
+[43:16] half uh, or 2 years. I forget how long ago it came out, basically reviving old soda traditions. And in fact, is selling products that have been kind of extinct for a while, including lactart, which is, you know, a lactic acid-based acidifier for use in
+
+[43:34] sodas and acid phosphates, which is phosphoric acid-based soda acidifiers.
+
+[43:41] So he's selling these things, and that book, extremely, extremely influential in the comeback of interesting sodas.
+
+[43:49] I mean, people have been working on interesting sodas for a while, but kind of without a lot of basis, and he's providing a lot of basis and contextualizing of the old recipes for kind of modern people.
+
+[43:59] So under read by JQ public, but very influential among the kind of cocktail and drink thinking crowd, fix the pumps.
+
+[44:08] anyway. So Darcy wrote back to Ellen, by the way, in case you don't know what's going on, stone fruits contain 2 different things, many different things, but 2 things that people are worried about,
+
+[44:19] amygdalene, which basically breaks down into cyanide, which is why, and that's why, you know, cyanide smells like burnt
+
+[44:25] almonds. don't want too much. Anyway, amygdalin and lesser quantity is something called prunisin, which is, you know, also breaks down into cyanide. So, uh, Darcy wrote back to Hastings. The problem with the Megalan and the Stone and Pitts, uh, is that the form in there, which is what's called a glycoside, which is a sugar, bound to
+
+[44:42] the cyanide, right? It's only released when it encounters specific digestive enzymes, which are found in our digestive systems.
+
+[44:49] And Darcy's had some conversations with sugar syrup companies that make syrups from fruit stones and say that there aren't any, there isn't any cyanide in their product. And the problem with that method, Dorothy says, Darcy
+
+[45:01] says is that they're actually looking for cyanide and not for the amygalen, which is what's going to get you when you do it. Buddy says that small amounts of pits aren't going to hurt you, but Hastings is pointing out, what the hell? I'm using 20 to 100 times what you use. Am I going to die or not? Well, it's a very interesting question, Hastings. I don't know if you're gonna die. Here's what happens. When you eat a whole bunch of products with amygdalin in it, like apricot
+
+[45:24] kernels or the classic one or pits from cherries, et cetera. The amygdalin in it breaks down and forms cyanide, you know, cyanide,
+
+[45:32] HCN, you know, hydrocyanic acid or whatever, and benzaldehyde. Benzaldehyde is what gives you the taste that you want, right? And it's done via enzymatic reaction. Now, there is an enzyme in the pit. So what you want to do. The way they get rid of this is you grind, you don't roast it. Roasting, I've, you know, some people say roasting gets rid of, gets rid of it. Roasting is going to get rid of any free cyanide in the pit, but isn't going to degrade the
+
+[45:58] amygdalen at all. So as soon as you eat it, you're still going to have it. What I would do, and what everyone he does, commercially, they break it, they grind up the seeds roughly, then they soak them in water for a period of one to 3 days.
+
+[46:12] What's happening there is cyanide,
+
+[46:16] free, the free cyanide things are very soluble in water, whereas the benzaldehyde, which is the aroma and the flavor you want is not.
+
+[46:23] Furthermore, enzyme, it's soluble, but not that much. Enzymes are in the pit. And when you break it up, those enzymes are going to go to work on the amygdalin and break it down into
+
+[46:35] the free cyanide stuff and the stuff with the flavor, the benzaldehyde. So what you then do is you soak it for a couple of days, then you drain it and you cook it. And when you cook it, and you free cyanide is extremely volatile and will boil off because the cyanide, the stuff that's going to kill
+
+[46:51] you boils off at like 78 Fahrenheit. You know, obviously leave the lid off the pan and don't breathe in the vapors. And then what's left over should be fairly amygdalin free and fairly cyanide free. That said, I can't give you any numbers that are going to be 100% safe. It's kind of, it's a tough thing. I can't I can't really give you a number and say that you won't die, but that is the way things
+
+[47:14] are things are reduced. You can further reduce the amount of amygalena stuff through fermentation, but you have to get a specific strain of yeast, the one that does tempeh
+
+[47:24] works or specific bacteria, specific funguses. They were like tempeh fermentation works and certain other things, but don't count on it. Um, you know, so what do you think, man? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I saw another article while I was researching this called why are so many plants cyanogenic? Interesting question, right? And I didn't know so many were, but it turns out that a disproportionate number of our food plants have these glycosides, these sugar bound with cyanide, and other
+
+[47:54] stuff, in them. And the theory of this paper, why are so many plants styogenic, is that these plants don't get eaten by animals as
+
+[48:05] much, but humans are good at figuring out how to not get poisoned by them.
+
+[48:09] And so we tend to eat them. And that's why a disproportionate number of these products are eaten by people. And some large number percentage have certain stuff in them. Among them, wheat and maize have a small amount, I guess, in a sprouts, to stop the sprouts from getting eaten. But sorghum, the sprouts, the seeds are fine, but sprouts have huge amounts of it in it. And so sorghum sprouts are poisonous unless you cook the hell out of them. And I always knew sprouts were poisonous. right? It just further confirmation that sprouts. She is a poison, right? Anyway. So I hope this has been somewhat useful. And here's what we're gonna round out with today. John Larry writes in and says, my name is John Larry. I would like to know if you have an old pressure cooker. My God, do I have old pressure cookers, right? Nastasia? Yeah, we do. Available that I'm looking for less expensive ones than the ones that I have. Could you let me know the prices for old pressure cookers, and I'd be happy to pray by credit card. Well, John, pay my credit card. Yeah, John. I thought that was spam. It's not spam. No one writes a letter asking for a used pressure cooker. spam. It was the it was the words he used that made me think. Pressure cooker or credit card? Which was, anyways, John. Uh, fellow person with 2 last names like myself. 21st names, rather. Why? Because your mom couldn't afford. My mom couldn't afford a last name, so I got 21st ones. Boom. Anyway, so, well, we are not in the business of selling used pressure cookers. I do agree that pressure cookers cost quite a bit of money. Uh, you know, uh, the pressure cooker that I use every day costs well over 200 bucks.
+
+[49:48] You can get a decent pressure cooker or figure workarounds for pressure cookers. I'm not going to tell you to modify a pressure cooker like I did on the blog last week. Uh, but, uh, you know, you can get one for under $100. I wouldn't recommend buying a used pressure cooker because the seals on it are probably about to go
+
+[50:03] anyway and you're going to have to buy a new seal, could be clogged up. It's just a world of headache. Go out there and research. one of the cheaper pressure cookers. I'm not going to, you know, not going to push any brands online. But, yeah. imagine, imagine if we were, like, if we ever had a rummage sale, it would be crazy, right? Oh, yeah. Anyways, but. A rummage sale? A rummage sale? You don't want to rummage through my stuff. Anyways, today, tomorrow, I'm flying out to Columbia. We're going to be doing a demo in Colombia, the country,
+
+[50:34] and in Bogota, who's I can't pronounce properly, but I'm going to be doing a variation on milk soup on Colombian milk soup,
+
+[50:42] which should be interesting. Fly back for one day just to do this radio show. That's a lie. But I'm here though, right? you Yeah, I'm here. I do that. And then I fly out and then the next Tuesday I'll be in Harvard. So I'm going to try 2 weeks from now to do it live from Harvard with McGee. It's not during the class time, is it, a show? don't think so. I think I'm going to be away too. So I might be able to do it. Anyway, so I will have been, uh, next time I speak to you people, I will have been to South America for the very 1st
+
+[51:08] time, cooking issues.
+
+[51:16] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. The following is a message from NoFA NY. Do you dig local food, love organic farmers? Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food
+
+[51:48] system, then sign up today to take the NOFA NY's local floor challenge this September. Join 5000 other New York local oars that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system. Learn more at www.nylocavorechallenge.com.
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+[0:06] You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com, bringing you the freshest radio in Brooklyn since 2009. Here directly from chefs to farmers, artists to architects, authors to brewers, and everyone in between. Check out all of our shows on our website or by searching Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. The following is a message from NoFA NY. Do you dig local food, love organic farmers? Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food system? Then sign up today to take the NoFA NY's local war challenge this September. Join 5000 other New York locavores that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system. Learn more at www.nylocavor challenge.com.
+
+[1:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. She's coming to you live from Bogota, Columbia, calling all
+
+[1:11] your questions to the studio of Brooklyn at 718-497-2128. That's
+
+[1:15] 718-497-2128. Stash and Hammer Lopez is sitting at the studio in Brooklyn. How you doing, Nastasha? Good, how are you doing? Yeah, all right. Uh, I was supposed to be doing cookie shoes today from Brooklyn, but uh, due to the hurricane, which Nastasia apparently wasn't much of a big thing in our area
+
+[1:32] anyway. My flight was canceled and here I am in Bogota. Right. Nothing happened down there, right? Nothing, you have a caller. I know you want to take them. Oh, and call her. You on the air. Hey, Dave, how are you doing? Kevin from Virginia Beach. Hey, I got a question about, um, I got some calcium hydroxide, flake lime, and I was thinking about, um, different ways to use it since I got a lot of it, and I was thinking maybe you could use it for spherification, but I'm concerned about interacting with sodium alginate, and producing
+
+[2:00] lie. And if that would be a problem. I was wondering if you have any experience with that? Uh, well, let me think here. No, I don't think it'll do that because um, No, I don't think it'll do that because, you know, you, uh, you add salt all this, all all the time to, uh, uh,
+
+[2:15] you know, you add salt all the time to, uh, do things that have calcium hydroxide in
+
+[2:20] the minute. I mean, yeah, calcium hydroxide, it's not a problem. So, you know, in order to form the lie, you need to, you need to start with sodium and then have
+
+[2:28] the uh hydroxide already attached to it and then put it in. starting with calcium hydroxide, which is much weaker, so it's not, it's not going to be, not going to be an issue. Think about it this way, if you had, um, pure lie, and pure uh, hydrochloric acid, right? You don't retain the powers of those 2 things. You just end up with salt and water. You know what I mean? Right, yeah. Yeah, so you think it would taste okay? Uh, okay, so those are 2 separate questions. Uh, you know, look, it, it, look. It can't taste worse than calcium uh calcium chloride does. Calcium chloride's horrible, but I think the real problem with it is calcium hydroxide has
+
+[3:10] a, a very low solubility. So I don't think that you would necessarily get enough calcium in there to have it set properly. I mean, it's interesting. tried it. Um, you, you know, calcium hydroxide, um, saturates very quickly. So typically you add, if you're going to make something like a soaking solution for, uh,
+
+[3:29] bananas like Thai style, you can like just mix it with, uh, you know, water, let it settle out to the bottom, pour the stuff off
+
+[3:36] off the top, and that's basically saturated, uh, child seam hydroxide. Yeah, that's for the water. What, and it tastes like, it tastes like uh, cement to me. Um, I don't know whether that will set alternate or not. Um, you know, you just have to see, you just have to drop a cup, it'd be easy to test. You have to drop a couple of pearls into it and see whether it sets it. Um, but, you know, you could try it, be interesting. Let us know, let us know what happens. I mean, we use it for, uh, obviously for niximalizing corn. It's primary thing we use it for, uh, if you were here in Colombia, you could chew it with coca leaves to release
+
+[4:13] the, uh, alkaloids, although I'm not necessarily advocating that. Um, you can use it to harden vegetables. Uh, you can use it to uh, well, keep things uh, firm while preserving the color when you're cooking them. It's really good stuff, you know? Yep. Okay, awesome. I'll give it a Sean. you know. All right thanks a lot. All right, thank you. So, Columbia, is Columbia has some amazing fruits, nastasia. I figured you were gonna say that. Yeah, amazing fruits. Check, one of the reasons I wanted to come down here was to taste all the fruits, and uh, we went out partying after one of the events with uh, the ambassador to Columbia from the United States, and uh, I was like, hey, come on, you know, uh, any
+
+[5:02] we could slip some of those fruits in the bag, you know? No, he's like, no way, there's no way. There's no way we can get the fruits uh up in uh up in New York and shipped into the United States and it's a shame. They got the, one of the main fruits over here that they got, that I really like, it's called
+
+[5:18] uh, Lulu, and it, it's hard to describe these damn things, but let me put it this way. If you were going to come open a cocktail bar down here in Bogota. Uh, you could do some pretty serious drinks. This Lulo drink, like has some natural hydrocollard drinks. I know, and it forms a, it forms a head, almost like you were shaking with an egg white. Pretty little stuff, pretty little stuff. Uh, if we have time later, I'll just go down some of the crazier uh, fruits that we had, uh, so, let us get to some email questions. Boop, boop, boop. Okay. Andrew writes in and he says Andrew Switzer. Dear Dave, as a former career barista, uh, espresso, this is questions about espresso. A career obrissa. I'm wondering if you can share more info on your home espresso setup. I know some of the various requirements to have a professional home machine. I need to hope with the practical how-to and setup. Also, if it seems to be too big a job for my apartment, do you have any advice for achieving foaming milk for coffee lattes at home, my wish is a
+
+[6:17] stovetop steaming device capable of achieving microphone at 140 with a traditional metal steam wand, thanks a buck. All right. Andrew, here's the deal. I've had uh, in my life, 2 professional espresso machines, uh, and 2 different weird kind of
+
+[6:34] home, uh, machines. The professional machine is the way to go. If you are independently wealthy, then, and you have a lot of space, then, uh,
+
+[6:43] purchase, like, a 2 group, uh, espresso machine, uh, and install it in your
+
+[6:49] house. Here are the problems. Uh, 2 group espresso machine and I bought one used at an auction. Uh, you know, I went into, it was a, uh, this place was shut down as a result of, uh, drug activity in, um, in, you know, like in the upper 100s, in
+
+[7:02] Manhattan on Broadway, it was a restaurant, and they locked the restaurant shut, and, uh, when they reopened it, a year later, all the food was rotting, and so no one else wanted to be in that auction but me.
+
+[7:12] I was the only person who was willing to stomach the stench of this place to go in and purchase equipment. So I got a, um, a fairly, you know, nice 2 group
+
+[7:22] ranchillio espresso machine, uh, for almost nothing. Of course, I then had to disassemble it and boil all the parts to get out all the nasty stuff that had accumulated
+
+[7:32] and like animals, made their house, whatever, anyway. So I got it to work. Uh, problem with these larger machines is the larger machines, uh, take a lot of electricity. So that one required like a
+
+[7:42] big, uh, 220 circuit. Um, the good news is, is, well, that makes better espresso than the equivalent one group machine, and the reason is, is that in traditional espresso machines, they use the, the mass of the
+
+[7:55] equipment to provide um, the stability, the temperature stability, and also the ability to have like huge amounts of steam on
+
+[8:02] demand. So, that machine, even, you know, made better espresso, than a single group
+
+[8:08] professional machine that I have now, which is a lot of San Marco. The problem is, I didn't have 220. I wasn't able to install it. So if you don't have 220 or if you don't have a lot of electricity, you can get a commercial, one group machine
+
+[8:20] that will run off of 110. And if you have a lot of money, you can buy very temperature stable one group
+
+[8:25] machines, uh that run off of 110, uh, but they're very expensive. Uh, the professional ones, like the dual boiler or any of these ones have very accurate temperature control. Very expensive. So you have to make a choice of how much electricity you're going to have. Secondly, you have to make sure that the coffee machine can live near a sink. Uh, so what you do is, is you put it near a sink, um, you put a, uh, I'll go under where, where your sink line is, the line in, go to your cold
+
+[8:50] water tap, install a filter on your cold water, you know, unscrew it, put in a T, where
+
+[8:55] the uh, water comes in, install uh, another branch off of that, which is very simple. This is all Home Depot, like, you know, one hour problems, no big deal. Install a water filter on it. Make sure you put a shut off valve beforehand so you can change the water filter without everything going wrong. You then under the sink there, place the pump for your espresso machine, if you have an external
+
+[9:16] pump and most pro machines have an external pump, you put it down there. And then you run, um, do you run the power wire to the, uh, to the pump and the, uh, drain and the, um, sorry, the, uh, the input line
+
+[9:29] in, right up, and then what's really good is to drill an extra large hole. Oh, by the way, you're doing a hole in your counter. Uh, dimension this, you're filling a hole in your counter, uh, behind the espresso
+
+[9:39] machine that can make it into uh, underneath your sink. Then you want to install a drain hose, which they're not very big. Uh, and then tap that into, um, you know, the equivalent of a, of a, uh, basically a, uh, like a disposal, or a washing machine, a washing machine drain, uh, that goes into the
+
+[9:58] things, you want to plug it into another one of those so that your machine, uh, so your espresso machine can drain, uh, and make sure that your espresso machine is always above the level of your
+
+[10:07] sink, so you can't, uh, you know, have backups, uh, um, onto the floor out of your espresso
+
+[10:12] machine if your drain clouds up. Uh, and that's basically it. I mean, uh, it's, you know, it sounds like it's a lot, but you know, if you have a drill. And you can go, uh, drill in, uh, you're set, uh, you know, then you want to make sure you have a place that you can knock out espresso grounds, so you're
+
+[10:29] going to want, uh, you know, either to take a small, you can buy one, or you can make a knock, a knock knock box, uh, and it's helpful to have a trash can or buy. Uh but that's it. It's pretty simple. Um, they, um, you know, as, as regards if you're not going to get a professional machine. Uh, you know, I haven't used anything, it does a very good steaming job, uh, that wasn't a, uh, pro machine, um, because, you know, it's just, it can be
+
+[10:56] done. I mean, if you go to coffee geek.com. Those people will sit around and make amazing uh, foam with uh, home machines, but it's just, you know, they, I think they, they're always sucking wind a little bit because they don't have as much of a steam capacity as, let's say, even a single
+
+[11:12] group uh, 110 machine. Uh, but that said, you can do this all very cheaply, uh, if you
+
+[11:18] scrouge around and you can have, and let me tell you this. It is extreme pleasure to just be able to use the freaking espresso
+
+[11:27] machine, like nature intentative, which is having it plumped into your water supply, and having it, you know, drain into your, uh, into your drain. Even if you don't have a commercial special machine, you can usually plumb them by putting a, uh, a level sensor and a, and a, and a solenoid valve to, uh, allow you to put high pressure from your, you know, mains, uh, which is like
+
+[11:52] 4050 PSI, put that into a gravity fed container and espresso machine. So, there you have it. Hey, Nastasia, did you know that Bogota is over 8000 feet high and I haven't had to do this much talking in a row on
+
+[12:06] a phone and I'm actually feeling winded from the altitude? Wow. You there? More than when you ride your bike here and come in. What did you say? I said, you feel more out of breath than when you arrive here after you've ridden your bike through Brooklyn. Uh, well, I guess that's true, but you can't let yourself mellow out when you're, uh, when you're in
+
+[12:25] Bogota. There's no there's no modeling out. The weird thing is, I didn't feel, I haven't felt that windy the whole week. just, uh, I guess it's just, uh, because of, uh,
+
+[12:34] they, the talking at high speed, because when I was doing my demonstration here, it's the 1st time, like I said, it had to
+
+[12:40] be uh, done in Spanish. And so it's weird having to constantly stop and like give like ¢3 his wake, give 3 sentences,
+
+[12:46] wake, give 3 sentences. That's very strange. Very, very, very strange. All right. Jason E writes in a question on eggs. So, I know Dave's done quite a bit on low temperature egg cooking, including the chart recently published in
+
+[13:00] David Chang's Lucky Peach magazine, which that we've used that chart. How many times have we used that chart, Nastasia? Many, Harvard uses it too. Who? Harvard. Harvard's using it. There's some popular science one. That chart is like all over all over the place. Anyway, but I was wondering if you guys had any tips for other eggs. Playo, duck, et cetera. I'm assuming times would need to be adjusted for different egg sizes, but what about the composition of eggs? Our substances and different eggs difference, and if they're the same as chicken eggs,
+
+[13:27] it's the ratio of substances the same. All right. Well, Jason, unfortunately, I don't have, uh, or didn't until right before this happened, uh, have enough Wi-Fi time to research the exact opposition of what's going on in these
+
+[13:39] eggs. I will say this. Chicken eggs and duck eggs, and quail eggs, for that matter, are different. Um, the proteins in them are different. They're fairly similar, right? But they are different. And the reason I know this is because when you treat uh, eggs with uh, lie and salt, which is something we do for the Harold McGee class, uh, and
+
+[14:00] uh, I really like them. I think we have it on the blog because nastasia, remember, it's on the blog from a couple of years ago. Yes. You can just look up, look, lie and eggs. And um, that lie basically, um, the nature's the protein slider makes it less able to bond with itself, uh, which makes it such that it stays
+
+[14:17] clear even when it's cooked. Uh, so that's pretty cool. And, you know, the, um, doesn't work as well in chicken eggs as it does in duck eggs and quail eggs.
+
+[14:28] So you know that there's fundamentally a difference between uh, those 2 those 3 eggs. Um, quail, interestingly, and duck work better than uh, chicken. Now, I haven't done a lot, as far as cooking them goes, I haven't done a lot of experimentation to figure out what
+
+[14:45] temperature, whether there's a temperature difference. I know that a duck egg and a quail egg are going to be runny at 62 uh because I've done them. Uh, and I know that a quail egg will still get slightly, you know, that creaminess that you would normally get at 63 Celsius,
+
+[15:00] right? Which is, but, quail eggs cook much faster, and I think they also, uh, can drift into overcooks much
+
+[15:07] faster. A quail egg is done in like, you know, under 15 uh, way under 15 minutes. You know what I mean? It's like, it gets done quick. And clear legs, though, when you do a clear leg in a circulator, they're difficult to, uh,
+
+[15:20] take, get out the way you would get out of chicken egg. So what I normally do is you get like one of those uh, one of those like cigar cutting things that are not for, they're for quail eggs, and you chop the top and the bottom, not just the
+
+[15:33] top, to get the egg out, the top and the bottom, and then you can shake the egg out, and you can get like, you know, um, you know, most of the eggs will come out properly, whereas if you try to do it
+
+[15:44] via cracking, Uh, you're gonna lose, you know, like half of your eggs. So if you're going to low temperature circulate a quail lake, you're going to want to get something that can chop the top in the bottom of the um shell off. Um. Duck eggs. I haven't had a lot of experience with. I mean, I know they're still creamy at 62, but I don't know whether they'll set, you know, exactly
+
+[16:04] at 64 and be premium 63. They're obviously going to have to cook longer because they're um because they're bigger. Um. But, you know, you know, more interesting thing on eggs is uh, and and relating to uh, the proteins and basicity is, uh, and I, I think we put this in heater last week, is uh, you need to add a little bit of, uh, if you, if you're having problems peeling your eggs, if you add a little bit of baking
+
+[16:27] soil to the water. Apparently, it helps, and um, and uh, that's Harold McGee trick, uh, because it makes it more alkaline, it makes it so the proteins
+
+[16:35] and the eggs bond less strongly to the membrane in the shell when you peel it, which is kind of cool. Uh, I asked uh, Wiley whether they do that at the restaurant and uh, the restaurant being WD
+
+[16:44] 50 and indeed they do, but they say the peeling eggs is still a, uh, a pain in the butt. Um, all right. So, uh, by the way, uh, before I forget, I said on the
+
+[16:56] blog, a couple of weeks ago that, uh, that dragon fruit is, uh, uh, you know, a gross, awful, uh, tropic fruit, and I got a couple people telling me that I was wrong, and I was like,
+
+[17:06] well, look, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Well, I came down here to Columbia and I had a fruit called Pataya. is another basically word for a type of dragon fruit. The ones that get down here are yellow, and lo and behold, um, it tastes good. I like it. So I found a dragon fruit that I like. Also, you know, nastasia, you remember how I hate
+
+[17:26] papaya? Yeah. Yeah, I hate it, right? I mean, I, I, I like a green papaya, like a crunch and pie, but I hate myself a, uh, uh, a
+
+[17:34] riper pie in the States. It smells like, like nothing you'd want, like alternately, sometimes it smells like a diaper. sometimes it smells like vomit. You know, this smell good. you like them? No, no I don't. No, they're awful, right? Here they're actually good. In fact, in Colombia, right? not supposed to, you're not supposed to walk around the streets of Columbia showing off that you have a lot of bling. This is not a bling oriented society when you're walking around the streets, you know what I'm saying? Uh, you know, for obviously, and the security here is intense. You know what I mean? They're still, I guess, you know, worried about, um, I guess problems. Anyway. So, uh, the local phrase is to show you how good the papayas are here compared to where they are in the states. If the local phrase here is, uh, don't give papaya. In other words, if you if you have this papaya out that you're giving out, that people are going to come take it and then take more. You know what I mean? So it's like, that probably they're so ingrained at like the, the kind of national statement for like, you know, don't flash your bling, is basically don't flash your
+
+[18:32] papyas. Cute. Yeah, anyway. Uh, okay. going up. Have a question from Chris about uh bloom strength of... You want to call her in case you want to do that first. All right, all right. Call her. You're on the ear. Yeah, hi. Um, My name is Jesse. I have a question about juice extractors. And I was wondering um for under 300 bucks. Is there one that you recommend highly? Okay. what kind of juice? I'm juicing vegetables and fruits. Okay, but not citrus? No not citrus no. And not sugar cane? And not sugar cane, no. And not, um, wheat grass. No not wheatgrass either. Okay. Uh, because those are, those are tough. Um, so the one that we typically use uh, in the
+
+[19:28] school and that almost every chef has, and they could be had for well under $300 uh, is the uh, champion
+
+[19:35] juicer. Okay? And the champion juicer. Basically, the way it works is, it's got an auger and then little teeth, and it just, you know, you push the stuff
+
+[19:46] through, and pulp shoots out the front, and juice goes down the bottom, um, and you can even put the pulp through a 2nd time if you want
+
+[19:53] to. It can also grind peanuts and it can grind cocoa nips to make chocolate, you know, it's good. a good machine. It, you know, it tends to heat your juice up a little bit. You know what I mean? Um, yeah. So, if you're having a problem with your juice overheating, and especially when I make it, I tend to force the stuff down the throat of the machine so quickly
+
+[20:13] that like it tends to overheat. I've had, um, I have had the base of the champion, the motor, like almost catch on
+
+[20:22] fire and, and like, uh, you know, I've, I've melted the internal complementary of it, but that's after like, you know, like an, over an hour of continuous, heavy, like, you know, basically, I, when I juice like that, I
+
+[20:35] juice, as if I was going to the gym and working out. You know what I'm saying? So it's, uh, it's, uh, you know, that's not going to happen that much for more money. Um, some people like the green starch juicer, which is basically a set of gears that matches the stuff. However, I've never used one. People that I know that have used it to say that the yield is not nearly as high with, um, the green star as it is with the champion. Now, there are a bunch of other juices that I've seen on the web and even seen kind of in person that seem to, they work on different principles,
+
+[21:11] right, that work like centrifugal, so they grind it and then, then centrifugally separated out. Um, and some of these purportedly make very good juice. The problem is, is that they, a lot of them don't have a lot of capacity. So if you're making a little bit of juice, right? They're okay. But if you want to make a boatload of juice, like if you're doing a party, or if you have a, you know, a lot of people coming over or whatever, then you're not going to want to sit around and, and burn out a smaller
+
+[21:37] juice, or you're going to want something that maybe is, um, a little bit less, uh, maybe had a little bit less, um, yield on extraction. Maybe warms up a little bit, but it's kind of a robo monster, right? Which is what the champion is. So, I actually don't have a lot of information on the other kind, on the kind that is like a little
+
+[21:54] bit, uh, slower, maybe a little bit more gentle, but can't handle a lot because I can't personally use a piece of equipment. that can't pump out, you know, a gallon of juice and a reasonable amount of time. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah, okay. So, um, and, you know, it, uh, although I have to say, you know, on the o- other end of the spectrum, if you have a bajillion dollars, if,
+
+[22:15] if all of a sudden you win the lottery, go out and buy a neutra faster, like the professional ones that you see that look
+
+[22:19] like uh, that look like a, a, a tower at an airport, and have a tube coming out of them.
+
+[22:25] Yeah, I went to a I never used one before because I, you know, I've never worked in like, you know, one of these places that used for living, but, by the way, none of these juicers will do wheatgrass, sugar cane, and they're not for citrus, which is why I asked you those questions.
+
+[22:37] Um, but you put, you know, when you put an apple in a champion juicer. You have to push on it to get it to come out, right? I mean that's just what it is. When you, uh, you know, when I put an apple into the neutra faster thing, I felt like it was going to suck my arm down into it. That's how thirsty it was to eat these apples, you know what I mean? So I respected that machine. The other machine that some people like, it's very expensive. is the Norwalk, which is basically a press. But again, I've never used it. I don't know how concerned you are about, um, heat changing it versus just, you want it easy to clean, can pump out a whole bunch of juice. Um, yeah, are you more in that category? You want it to be a... Yeah, I'm more than that. Yeah, and pop out a boatload of juice when you need it, but not necessarily need to do that much. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd use a champion. have used it before? Um, I think I've used it once in a restaurant. yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most people have them, you know, um, and most people, we're we're usually fairly, fairly happy with them. Uh, I, you know, I don't know how much more it costs to get the commercial one. The commercial one basically uh has a stainless shaft and better bearings on the motor uh versus the home machine. Um, otherwise I think they're fairly similar and it's easy to get replacement parts for it. And uh, I don't know anyone that doesn't like their champion, but that way. Okay. Well, great. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Dave. good luck with it Thanks, bye. It's take a break. So, Nastasia, you think we should go to the 1st break? All right, call on all your questions too, 718-49721287184972128 cookie issues.
+
+[24:49] La mirada.
+
+[25:05] Dave? Yep. You're back on. Hey, welcome back. on the air. Cooking issues coming to you live from Brooklyn and Bogota, Columbia, where the weather is
+
+[25:16] always like fall. It's crazy. It's like falling here all the time. I actually like the weather a lot. Oh. Pretty good. Yeah. You know, you, you could, even though we're on the equator, it's, it's like so high up in the
+
+[25:28] mountains that it's always kind of like, uh, it's like basically fall weather, like early fall weather, which I enjoy. If you go to Medellin, which is, you know, it's also in the mountains, but like slightly lower, they call that one
+
+[25:40] eternal spring because it's like 10 degrees warmer than here, so it's always springtime there. Always.
+
+[25:45] Zombie, like literally nothing changes weather wise. They have a rainy season where maybe it rains more, but like weather wise, the temperature. It's always the same. It's crazy right? Cool, yeah. Then we went down to Cartagena, which is like on the water, and that is freaking humid. Um, freaking human. Anyway. Uh, call on any questions, still time to call any questions,
+
+[26:07] 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. By the way, more on Columbia. Uh, guys down here incredibly nice. Incredibly nice. Uh, I should probably do a, a blog post on, by the way, I haven't had blog posts. I been internet challenged, uh, uh, often when I'm down here, and telephone challenge, and cash challenge, you know that they, I came down here, uh, and uh, my bank, Chase, uh, you know, decided that
+
+[26:35] they, when I asked them for replacement cards, they would give me a temporary card. You know what temporary cards don't do? Give money. They don't take money out of banks internationally. We've been, I've been like basically mooching off of my new friends here in Columbia. Uh, you know, for the last time. you money 2 days ago and you never gave me the code. I don't I don't understand how it works. Anyway, whatever. We would be later. I'm just saying is that travelers are going abroad. Please get your financial crudge straightened out before you go, or you could be more unlike Dave Arnold. That's basically the point, right? Anyway. So, uh, Chris writes in about the bloom strength of gelatin. Can you explain how to convert between different bloom strengths of sheet gelatin? I have a recipe that calls for silver strength at 160
+
+[27:21] bloom, but only have gold strength, 200 bloom handy. thanks. Okay. Uh, 1st of all, uh, Bloom Force, Bloom is an, is kind of a, a weird definition of the strength of gelatin.
+
+[27:35] And literally what it is, is you, they take uh, uh, gelatin, it's been cured, you know, for like, you know, 17
+
+[27:43] hours at a very specific temperature, like 10 Celsius, right? at a very specific concentration, like uh 66 and 2 thirds, 6.66%, right? Uh, and they push a, um, they push a little plunger that they make standard into it, and they figure out how much force it takes to push that
+
+[28:04] plunger, 4 millimeters into the surface of the gel, right? And they give you that force in grams, and that's what Bloom is. And by the way, most of the measures used in foods are weird, crazy lunatic things like this, where some dude in a factory was sitting around saying, hey, listen, I got to figure out how to measure this
+
+[28:22] correctness. So he makes this like, he's like, now this is the standard for all time. So he like, I don't know, he uses whatever he wants, a ball, a cone, a pen, whatever, but he makes the standard for all time. It's named after him, Bloom, and he pushes it in and he writes the stuff down. So this is how the food industry works. So the question is, how do you convert it? So you can't just simply, you know, uh, you know, other places have published. You can't just simply exchange, like say, hey, I have one that's a 200 bloom. making these up to make math easier for me. I've wanted to 200 bloom and one that's a 100 bloom. So I'm just going to use twice of the 100 bloom. Right? It doesn't make it doesn't make sense. Here's another thing. People like to use a number of sheets of gelatin when they use gelatin to kind of figure out what's going on. But the fact of the matter is, is that typically you buy sheet gelatin uh in grades, right? Platinum, silver, bronze, gold, right? And the thing is, is that as it goes down the line. Platinum is the strongest gel It's usually has the highest bloom strength. It's usually the clearest gel that doesn't have any brown, right? Some of the lower strength gels have undergone some hydrolysis. There can be some browning in them. It's like they're not as, you know, not as good looking, not as clear. Anyways, the lower the strength of gel, typically, like uh, the higher, uh, the higher the weight. of each sheet is because they're attempting to um,
+
+[29:37] keep uh, the gelling power per sheet similar. Does that make sense? But if you're going to substitute uh a weight. uh then you have to do some sort of conversion. Now, uh, a, as you change the concentration of gelat, right? You're not uh, it doesn't scale. So in other words, if you double the concentration, you don't get exactly twice the uh, you don't get twice the strength of the gel. Typically, uh, you get much more than twice the strength of the gel, right? So you, you can't do a straight conversion. A very good uh, uh, thing to look at on the web. It's something called a gelatin summary and conversion. And it's a really useful, like 4 page word document that you can download right off the thing by uh AUI. There's Albert, Uster imports, and they're Nastachi, you'll be happy to know that they're Swiss, right? And uh, they provide uh, the formula, uh, where you take, uh, and you multiply, uh, by the square
+
+[30:37] root of the bloom strengths. It's not going to make much sense, but I'll put it to you this way. If you have a 200 bloom strength gel, right, and you want to figure out how much to use
+
+[30:46] in 140 bloom, you do 200 divided by 140, right?
+
+[30:51] And then you take the square root of that. And so if you needed, uh, an existed example right off their sheet. I reading it off their sheet, so don't say I'm plagiarizing and it's right there. Uh, if you have 10 grams of 200 bloom gelatin, and but you, you know the recipe calls for 10 grams, 200 bloom, but you want to use
+
+[31:06] one that's 140 bloom. You take 10 times a square root of 200 over 140 and that is how many grams of the lower bloom strength gelatin you want to use.
+
+[31:18] And the reason for the square root there is as I say that it's not a linear, it's not a linear thing. Um, Anyway, I hope that helps, and you should read that, uh, read that little paper because it's kind of cool anyway. It's got lots of kind of cool pictures, and uh, it's titled Gelatin Summary, and that's what she is. It also gives, interestingly, stuff that you don't, uh, it has a bunch of actual conversions, uh, for known
+
+[31:43] things, like how to convert uh, platinum sheet weight to Knox powder weight, how to convert uh, Knox powder weight to gold weight. By the way, Knox powder, which is the one nastachi that we use, uh, when we're doing uh, our gelatin work is actually pretty darn good. It's got like, uh, it's, it's between uh, platinum and and gold and actually closer to platinum, so that's pretty good, right? Yeah, that's really good. Why not? Yeah. So Knox Shelton, even though it's in the supermarket, turns out to be a serious butt kicker. Right? Nice. Yeah, nice. Nice. All right. So, uh, I tried coca tea, by the way. How was it? Yeah, it's been fine. It's like, you know, uh, it's, uh, yeah, uh, we went to the, like, highest point in Bogota, which is, uh, Mansarate, which is, like, you have to take up this, like, crazy tram up to the top, and it's, you know, it's way up there, and they have this, like, little, uh, market over there, and, uh, so they sell all kinds of local Colombian products, and one of which is, uh, uh, Coco tea, which is basically just the Coco
+
+[32:45] leaves, and I tried it, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't feel, uh, I didn't feel anything, really. didn't, you know, didn't, uh, do anything to me as far as I
+
+[32:53] know, and someone got me a bag of the leaves, but I'm pretty sure they're illegal to bring back to the United States. And since I'm flying around from here to Panama and Panama to the United
+
+[33:01] States, with a bag loaded with knives and uh, and white powders loaded in Ziploc bags. I don't think I'm going to take the chance of actually having any cocoa products on me. What do you think? I think that's smart. It's wise, right? Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, I'm not exactly sure how the law goes. I should have researched it before I, before I came in, but uh, I'm thinking that this is going to have to stay with some friends in, in Colombia. There's no way I'm going to try and bring us back on you. Can you imagine? Can you imagine like they find the cocoa bags and then they find like all the bags of like
+
+[33:33] sandfan gum and and uh, you know, just be crazy, crazy. Yeah. Bad news, horrible, horrible idea. I mean, I've had some bad ideas before, but I think that might be the most horrible of all. It was interesting. Uh, in terms of coca. You know, uh, there's a lot of, obviously,
+
+[33:50] controversy, uh, about the growing of cocoa because it's used to be cocaine, which is then shipped to the United States and causes many problems, et cetera, et cetera. But what's interesting is that we went to a museum called the Gold Museum down here,
+
+[34:02] uh, and it's all about pre-Colombian gold. And this, you know, the coca is a product has been used by uh, the people around here for like 10 bazillion years. You know what I mean? Like a lot of the gold implements that they had way, way, you know, way before anyone
+
+[34:16] uh showed up, uh, you know, demonstrate that this is, they, they use this. Not I not talking about refined cocaine, but like this, as a, uh, as basically a normal part of their daily life. They had, you know, they would have, uh, pouches that, they're like beautiful
+
+[34:30] gold that you were rich. Most people would use just hollowed out gorge, but like gold pouches to carry the, uh, lime, they would burn shells, calcium hydroxide to use to activate the, uh, coca leaf strongly. So it's, it's interesting. It's really, you know, part of the historical culture here, which makes it a little bit more
+
+[34:46] difficult, um, to say that we should try to stop people from growing it. Don't you think? It's kind of a interesting little question. Yeah. All right, so, Brian writes in uh, with uh, several questions, and so we'll try to uh, hit some. I'm going to go in reverse order. All right, Brian. Brian bought some malac acid some citric acid at the homebrew store. good news. I want to use them in cocktails and other stuff, such as jams, pate de flea. Any other acids I should get, any thoughts on the best applications? Well, yes, in fact, you can get some tartaric acid. Although if you have citric and Malik, citric and Malik are the 2 baller acids. If you have citric and mal, citric acid, malac acid. You can do a lot, right? Malic acid is the acid that is typical in apples, right? Apple's malice, uh, and citric acid is the acid that's typical in lemons. Now. Um, and if you taste them by themselves in small quantities, like they taste like the warhead that they're, that they're, you know, the apple
+
+[35:45] warhead, and the other one tastes like lemon warhead, warhead of the candy, if you, you know,
+
+[35:49] or the sour patches. If you buy tartaric acid, like that's one of the main acids in grapes, and so that
+
+[35:55] provides, uh, a grapey note. Uh, if you mix 2 parts of citric
+
+[36:02] acid to one part malic acid, you get the acidic flavor of, uh, lime, which is the one that I use most. And I use it as a corrective, right? So if you don't want to add limes or, you know, if you just want to correct the acidity of the juice slightly, um, we use these asses all the time. If you jack them too much, you tend to throw the juice out of balance. When you say so, nastasia? Yeah. Some other acids I would get. are uh, lactic acid and powder form, which can give alternately like a sauerkrautty or a sausage you taste, depending on the application, because it's, you know, it happens with lactic
+
+[36:37] acid, um, uh, uh, that's a good one. Uh, I use one called, uh, 6 cinnic, but I don't recommend getting it. It just makes very, very authentic uh lime juice, but it's very hard to get. lactic, lactic, I use tiny amounts of it, lactic acid. The, um, and the malic acid, the citric acid, tartaric acid, uh, are all pretty much available, I
+
+[37:01] think from homebrew and wine shops. The other one obviously you should get is ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C, which is a very good, uh, antioxidant, if you're making apple juice, uh, and whatnot. Um, but, uh, there, you know, there's some
+
+[37:13] asses that I want to get a hold of, that I don't have, like clinic, which is
+
+[37:17] a stringent, and is, is a part of the characteristic stuff, and things like apples. Um, but I don't have a source for it yet. Uh, I want to try, you know, tiny quantities of other bizarre acids, but, uh, until I find, I won't, I can't talk much about them until I find a, a source for them. Uh, but it's good news, you're gonna love that. We always love having that stuff around. Um, just to like I say, correct acidity. If you're going to make a soda and it has to last a long time, then you can use a malic citric blend with simple syrup to approximate
+
+[37:47] lime, then if you squeeze a little fresh lime or peel in at the end, you get a good line back out, but I mean, nothing beats the real
+
+[37:53] thing. Right, Nastasia? That is right. In nothing like the real thing. Anyway, okay. 2nd question. Uh, is Brian speaking again? I have made my own vinegar. It is a snap, except for the damn vinegar flies, and the vinegar is tasty as well. What exactly is the vinegar mother and is there any culinary application for it other than for making more vinegar?
+
+[38:13] That's an excellent question. Um, in fact, one of the uh, uh, Harris radio hosts is an expert vinegar maker, but I don't know if
+
+[38:20] he talks about it on the air, so I won't call him out. Uh, the, uh, when you make vinegar, what happens is, is you take, uh, you basically take alcohol, right? That's, you know, somewhere around 10% alcohol, and you expose it to
+
+[38:35] oxygen. When you expose it to oxygen, acetyl acetobactor, grow on acetic acid bacteria, grow on the top. Well, they grow all throughout it, right? And they're turning the ethanol into uh, into acetic acid. Okay? Now, uh like I say, they require oxygen to survive. Excuse me. So what ends up happening is that, uh, they tend to form, uh, a bunch of what's called bacterial cellulose, right? And then they
+
+[39:04] float, that stuff floats to the top and forms a layer. Now, the bacteria, then, after they use up the initial oxygen,
+
+[39:13] it's in the acetic, uh, in the, in the stuff that you're turning into vinegar, after they use the initial oxygen up, they tend to only exist in large quantities,
+
+[39:22] actively in large quantities, in the top of the forming vinegar,
+
+[39:26] right where the oxygen is. And so, they sit there chilling on the top of the of the vinegar, uh, making acetic acid from the ethanol, and at the same time,
+
+[39:37] uh, producing bacterial cellulose. And so that layer is basically, uh, living bacteria and bacterial cellulose. So, yes, you can lift it off and use it to make more vinegar, right? Uh, or, uh, it, there's a, it's, I've never heard of it done with, uh, with vinegar cultures before with vinegar mothers, but there's kind of a
+
+[40:00] well-known uh, Asian Filipino dessert called, uh, what is it called? Not a not a de cocoa, right? And what that is, is, is it is the shell produced basically vinegar mother, right? And what they do is, is instead of having it a jar that's tall, uh, right, or a jug, and where they're trying to prevent, I guess, excess, uh, moisture loss and whatnot, they spread coconut water in, uh, like in, like, a several inch thick layer in large sheets, and they use a very specific, uh,
+
+[40:32] cosito factor, but this works with, you know, any, any, uh, acetic acid bacteria, and it grows a thick
+
+[40:39] layer. Uh, of uh, bacterial cellulose on top, which is the same thing as vinegar mother. There, you know, this one, it just happens to produce a lot more of it, so it makes it a lot thicker. So what they then do, is they take off the uh, the top layer, and they soak it, uh, and then I think they might even boil it, and they get rid of the acetic acid flavor, and they
+
+[41:00] have the, this basically gel produced from the thing, and then they infuse it with syrups, and make it sweet, and stuff like that. So that's, uh, I believe, not, not that to cocoa, I think, but it's basically vinegar mother. So you could take the vinegar mother, soak it. Uh, if you're gentle with it because it's probably not going to be as strong, uh, and then maybe boil it in a syrup and make a, a gel out of it, uh,
+
+[41:22] and, you know, tell us what happens. Compare it to uh compare it to the one from Asia anyway. Uh so that's an interesting question. The 3rd question that Brian has is, oh, by the way, he used one of my favorite terms. She's like, I have, uh, a lot of questions, and he says, I hope I'm not Bogarting the radio show. don't you? I haven't heard Bogarting in a long time. Yes. You like that one, right? Anyway. Um okay. Black garlic is all the rage. How is it made and can I make it at home? All right. So, for those of you that, uh, haven't been paying attention to like tip new ingredients over the past couple years. Uh, black garlic is a kind of garlic that, uh, you know, originated in Korea. Uh, and people bring it over here and it's black, uh, uh, well, it's kind of, it's not really black. It's kind of brownish black, right? It's not really, it's not black. Right, yeah. It's got like dark, dark, dark brown. Uh, and it's kind of ooey, it's still in its, uh, in the clothes, and it's, uh,
+
+[42:22] gooey, gooey, and you spread it on things, uh, or do whatever you want with it, and it's very, very sweet, uh, and it's, uh, has like, uh, sugary, like, some people say like bulcanic, but I don't really
+
+[42:37] get, get that anyway, but like it's, it's what it is. It tastes like what it is. Uh, and it's pretty good. People like it. It also doesn't make your breath stick the way that uh regular uh garlic does. And if I have time more more on that later. Well, let's do it now. So, you know, we pressure cooked garlic to do the uh same thing, and uh, we're working on. um, we're working on trying to get some funding to get uh, uh, a garlic specialist to run some tests for us, to verify why pressure cooked garlic doesn't make your breath stick, because the stuff that's in garlic, that, um, stuff that's in garlic, that does make your breath stink,
+
+[43:10] and is extremely punch, and shouldn't be broken down by the temperatures of a pressure cooker, but apparently is, and he has some theories, but we have to run some tests, some more on that when
+
+[43:20] we, when we do it. But the way black garlic is made. People, and by the way, I did some, uh, a little bit of research, and I haven't been able to, uh, find anyone definitively says what's going on. But people say that it's fermented, and it's not fermented in the traditional sense, right? Uh, because the temperatures are too high. Here's how it's made. You, uh, you basically keep the uh, the garlic. And whole. Uh, some people apparently soak it in some dump beforehand. You keep it in, and by the way, some people say soy sauce in it. Soy sauce is unnecessary, not needed in it, blah, blah, blah. okay. You take the garlic and you keep it above 140 degrees
+
+[44:00] Fahrenheit, above 60 degrees Celsius, right? And uh, but you can go all the way up. Right, according to some of these, uh, sites all the way up to like 80 or 90 degrees Celsius and still have, have at 8. wouldn't do that. I would never take it, uh, uh, you know, above the softening temperature of the garlic, which is
+
+[44:20] gonna be, um, you know, in the 70s or 80s, uh, uh, Celsius. So, you know, I, I would keep it down lower where people recommend like 40, 50 Celsius, which is in the 100 and like 140 and a little above
+
+[44:34] range. Don't go any below that because if you go below that, you can have bacteria growing on it, right? So they keep it hot. And they keep it, uh, basically from drying out, so it doesn't defecate, uh, over time, and they keep it for a long time. So on the order of 30 days. The higher the temperature, probably the, the, uh, the less time is going to take. But that's how they make it. So it's done hot, uh, for a long time, and then allowed to cool down,
+
+[45:02] and, and, and there you have it. Some people, uh, in a in a patent line, red online. Some people put charcoal in with it to try to absorb some of the odors as it's being made. I don't know if that's truly necessary, but the easiest way to do it, uh is to use a dehydrator. So, if you're lucky enough to have an Excalibur style dehydrator, then you can, um,
+
+[45:25] so the sheet style dehydrators are tough, because you don't want it to actually dehydrate. So you want to kind of, like, put plastic put, like, put the garlic in a container that's non-reactive, put plastic wrap or whatever over that container so that it doesn't lose all of its moisture.
+
+[45:41] Now it's basically a controlled humidity environment, and then you put that into a dehydrator, and
+
+[45:46] you, you set it at like, I'm going to make up a number, like 150, and you let that Fahrenheit, and you let it run for like 30 days,
+
+[45:55] and, and there you have it. And so, um, so that's it. So it doesn't appear to be an enzyme reaction that's going on, uh, because of those temperatures, I'm pretty sure you're going to, at least,
+
+[46:06] it maybe initially it is, but you're going to break them down, uh, broken down a lot of the enzymes over that period of
+
+[46:10] time. those temperatures, I would guess, right? And it's not a fermentation in the sense that it's not bacterial or uh yeast derived. And this is why in the science literature, it's just referred to as aged garlic. I think what's happening is, is that a lot of the compounds in garlic are pretty
+
+[46:25] unstable, and if they're just held at these temperatures for very long periods of time, can produce these kind of crazy things
+
+[46:33] like, uh, like aged, aged garlic. Uh, what do you think? Pretty interesting, right? Yeah. All right. So, uh, anyway, I was supposed to, like, say, be in Brooklyn, I am flying out tomorrow to Panama, where I'm doing a demo, uh, in Panama City for a bunch of cookies for people, and I'm going to do an
+
+[46:53] Ikachime demo there, uh, maybe using some of the new Ikachime stuff that I learned when I was working with, Dave Chang, uh, on his iPad app, after which I will be in Harvard next Tuesday, giving a lecture to, uh, bright, you know, bushy, whatever, it's
+
+[47:08] bush bright-eyed, bushy tailed college students. Uh, about uh, the wonders of science in uh, in cooking with uh, Harold McGee, which should be a blast. Unfortunately, that means I will not be doing a live show because it's during the actual uh cooking issues time that we'll be
+
+[47:23] uh doing the lecture. So I look forward to speaking to you all in 2 weeks. Sinister questions, cooking issues.
+
+[48:54] The following is a message from NoFA NY. Do you dig local food? Love organic farmers? Do you crave to be part of a growing movement of consumers concerned with the state of our nation's food system? Then sign up today to take the
+
+[49:10] NOFA NY's local for challenge this September. Join 5000 other New York locavores that are hungry, active, and ready to change our food system. Learn more at www.nylocavorechallenge.com.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues back from Columbia, Panama, and the Harvard, where I was lecturing last year. We're back in Bushwick today, witness Tasha the Hammer Lopez. Calling all of your questions to... 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Still can't remember the dang number. Anyway, today, last week was our 52nd episode. We were supposed to celebrate it, but because the fake hurricane stopped us from being together in the studio. We're celebrating our 53rd episode with a delicious bottle of wine from our friends at
+
+[1:03] the Barter House. Uh, so what are we having here? Jules a Cote de Provence. So anyhoo, we're going to have that, which we shouldn't be drinking because we're going to be shooting an episode
+
+[1:14] of no reservations. What's it called? No reservations required, no reservations. with Anthony Bourdain later on today. Maybe we'll talk about it. Maybe we won't. don't know. Today's cooking issues is sponsored by modernist pantry, supplying modernist ingredients for the home cook. Modernist pantry offers modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook, and most only cost around 5 bucks per unit. Unit? Yeah. Per per thingam a Jake. Yeah. Uh, and you know what? This is one of the main problems when you're buying, I'll finish the thing. Okay. Whether you were looking for hydrocoloids, pH modifiers or even meat glue, eat glue, eat glue. You should get meat glue, by the way. you should all have meat glue in your pantry. You'll find it at modernist pantry. But by the way, when you buy meat glu from these guys. You should remember to always store it in the freezer after you're done with it or it's
+
+[2:03] going to go bad fairly quickly. Remember that. store it in the freezer tightly sealed in a ziploc in the freezer. Um, okay. And if you need something that they don't carry at modernist pantry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping. Hey, guys, source. Okay, if you're going to source anything, source, uh, Pectin X, SPL. I'm talking specifically to Chris Anderson in modern pantry, you're going to have to order a 25 liter
+
+[2:27] pail because we're sick of selling it to people because that's not what we're very good at, although the school is still selling that stuff. I tried to get terrorist bites to carry it and they weren't able to. So maybe you guys can carry that, which is a fantastic enzyme that you can use for clarification,
+
+[2:40] autosupreming, getting the pith off of peels, making delicious French fries, et cetera, et cetera. Buy it. Anyway. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues in order today, during today's show, go on there right
+
+[2:57] now because I want to prove that we actually have some fans. We'll get a free sample of
+
+[3:01] transglutaminates, a.k.a. meat glue with their 1st order, but only while supplies last. Simply use the promo code, CI, which I guess stands for cooking issues, 53, CI
+
+[3:11] 53 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Please do so so that it proves that we're, you know, useful in some way, right? Okay. Visit monitorspantry.com today for all of your monitors ingredient needs. And it is true that one of the hardest things that people have when they're sourcing these ingredients is purchasing them, and then if they want to purchase five,
+
+[3:32] steak, 7 hydrocoloids, even from the suppliers that we use for restaurant supply, they're usually buying more than you
+
+[3:38] need, a lot more than you need because you're typically only using a few grams of these things.
+
+[3:42] And you're paying 15, 16, $17 per unit of the, for these things, and you don't need that much of it. So it's a real barrier to experimentation. So this is a really good concept where you go, you can order smaller quantities of these things that are going to be useful to you. And then you can play around with them. They also, I think, they said that they'll get bulk if you need bulk, and I'm sure their pricing is different for bulk. So go on, check them out. Cheers, modernist pantry. Mistasia, pulling the Cesare Casella and throwing some ice cubes in her wine. What are we drinking today, Nastasia? you gonna give us a little spiel? It's a Jules Cote de Provence. Hey, great pronunciation. Really? No. I'm not mean. By the barter house. Bart her house, our good buddies. Okay, on to, by the way, remember to call in your questions. We're very excited for your questions today, although we do have a lot of email questions to answer if I can only find them. I gotta put them on my iPad. Okay. Huh. Kevin writes in. Hi, David Nastasia. I've been working on a blog post, listing ingredients commonly seen in scientific cooking, and I'm stuck on
+
+[4:50] sodium hexametaphosphate, SHMP, known in the parlance as shimp. Um, I know you've talked about its role as a calcium sequestrian, uh, for spherification before. By the way, calcium sequestran means basically that it has the ability to bind calcium molecules, and calcium is one of the things that causes certain gels to set. So if you're making something with alginate, for instance, and you want to stop it from prematurely setting, we add a little bit of sodium hexametaphosphate to bind up all the calcium that's available that would otherwise shaft your,
+
+[5:22] shaft, your gel. And so that's, you know, that's what a sequestrian is. Anyway, uh, But I've also seen many claims that can be used as an acidity regulator, an emulsifier, a
+
+[5:33] human dent, a raising agent, uh, sequester, we already said, stabilizer, and a thickener. I think I figured out how acidity regulation and emulsification work, but the rest are a mystery to me. My question is in 2 parts. Could you shed any more light on novel uses for shimp, sodium hex metaphosphate? And two, can you recommend any books, sites, journals, or other resources for doing research on scientific cooking? I have access to academic journals, but I sometimes still can't find the basic details of certain things. Well, I'll answer the 2nd one first. The problem with scientific journals is unless you know exactly what you're looking for. It can be very difficult to search for kind of general industrial knowledge on
+
+[6:14] those journals. So for instance, if you're saying, hey, look, I want to look up, um, the production, or I want to look up, you know, how to do
+
+[6:22] Ikigime, how to spinal cord ablation. If you know exactly what you're searching for, you can find the information, but otherwise it's very difficult. I usually look for industrial sites. Corporations usually put out lots of white papers on how their products work.
+
+[6:36] For instance, um, if you want to know about methocell, the best place to go is Dao, for methocellulose, uh, you know, the, for
+
+[6:42] alginates, it used to be ISP, which is which is a company now owned by FMC biopolymer. So for these industrial applications, where it's not a trade secret where they're trying to get you to use the product. A lot of the information is available online or if you call the company, they'll send it to you. This is the case with enzymes and hydrocollides primarily. If you want to know how a weird industrial cooking procedure works. Patent searches are often a good way to go, or there are specific, if you have access to scientific journals, you might also have access to food processing books, which are usually on different website within the same kind of an
+
+[7:15] area. Like, for instance, Canovel has a long list of books on actual food processing. For instance, the book Frying, Improving Quality, where I learned a lot about oil degradation, things like that. Another good source is Egan Press, which is put out by the American Association of
+
+[7:30] Serial Chemist. Good places to look for this for this sort of thing. When it comes specifically to sodium hexametaposphate. The problem with that is that it's usually an not very specific. It's not one thing. There's usually an impure bunch of polyphosphate salts, some of which are sodium
+
+[7:46] hexametophosphate, and some of which aren't. There's also, uh, the phosphate salts, like they react very, very differently depending on which one they
+
+[7:54] are. Two really good resources on the internets to look up one is the polyphosphates, chemistry, effect, and importance, which you can get as a
+
+[8:03] Word document online. It's easy to search for. And it has a very good discussion of kind of the chemistry of what's going on in, you know, fairly lay person's terms, thank goodness. And another one is search for ICL underscore meat.pdf, which specifically is how to use different kinds of polyphosphates in meat. Now, um, like shorter chain of phosphate salts are typically basic, whereas the longer
+
+[8:28] ones, uh, and cyclical ones, like sodium hexametophosphate, are typically not basic. So for instance, more basic polyphosphates are added to things like meat glue, a specific kind of meat glue, to make it basic so that the enzymes don't react when they're when they're
+
+[8:41] being when you know, when they're sitting there on your desk before you paint them on meat. Larger ones, they act as a sequestrian and the way they act as an emulsifier is by basically solubilizing the proteins. It's the proteins that are acting as an emulsifier when you're adding something like sodium hexametophosphate
+
+[8:56] to not, you wouldn't add sodium hexametophosphate to meat for that. You add a shorter chain polyphosphate. But anyhoo, that's what it's basically doing. The protein itself is the emulsifier, and the polyphosphates are basically making that protein more available. They can act as buffers in different kind of regimes, depending on which one you use. They're very, very versatile, but the actual usages of them are very specific, almost the way they are with hydrocollage. You have to know exactly why you're using it, which one you're using. So I recommend you look at those 2 sources and you'll get a much better handle for what's going on. What do you think, says? Yes. Yes. Okay. Uh, we got a call, uh, calling from Michael. Michael wants to know about potatoes and Miklu. Two separate questions. I will do the 2nd question first. I'd like to know if I can use translutamines to glue my drunk and passed out friends hand to his face. If I wet his hand and apply it to his face, and he didn't move until morning, would it bond? Also, if it did work successfully, would I be putting him in any serious medical danger by doing this? What if I just glue his hand to his torso? Okay. Uh, I'm not gonna I'm not going to go ahead and recommend that you glue the hand to the face, but let's take it from a theoretical standpoint. One of the problems with gluing your hand to your face is that, uh, like your epidermis is pretty much kind of a dead kind of a protein. So I don't know how much is going to be available for gluing. That said, you know, I can easily glue chicken skin. I know that works, you know? So it probably would work to an extent. I think you get a much, much, much, much, much better bond. If you sanded his hand 1st to make it kind of rough. Like, kind of like you, like if you skinned your knee, that kind of thing. Like if you fell off of a bike and you hit your hand on gravel, that kind of thing. And then did a similar thing to his forehead. I think you'd get a much better bond. Not recommending this, please don't do this. You'd also need to keep it very immobile. It wouldn't actually take 4 hours because remember, a human body temperature is around 98 degrees. So it probably the enzyme would set fairly quickly. I'm guessing fairly quickly. Now, the strength of the glue, uh, with the transglutaminates, is it's not on the order of making a whole muscle again. So if you use transgutaminates, you know that it's much more like 2 pieces of muscle that are separated by a membrane or the junction between 2 different muscles.
+
+[11:12] So that's the kind of level of bonding you're going to get. So you could pull it apart, but this would cause probably nasty disfiguration
+
+[11:20] and scarring. So I'm going to go ahead and not recommend it. But if he wants to, he can go to modernistpantry.com. Yes, but if you want a sample of meat glue to not test on your friend, I recommend that you go to the
+
+[11:32] Monter's pantry and enter the code of CI, what was it? 53? CI 53. purchase some meat glue and go ahead and do not try this on your friend. And this is not, look, many times I'll like nod, nod, wink, wink, don't try. Please don't actually try this, right? I mean, like, Nastasia, look at my face. I'm serious this time. Yeah don't try it. I'll tell you. I can't tell you when I'm not serious. I'm serious this time. Don't try this. Now we're going to try the delicious butter. We need a Dave serious sound effect. Yeah, but yeah, what could it be? Maybe the will and the scream. Yeah, yeah, right? For those of you that don't know, there's a scream called like the
+
+[12:04] Willem Scream that is in every movie and Spielberg's used it like 8000000000 times. So, and every time I hear it, I'm like, awesome. So it's used, uh, I guess one of the more famous usages is an Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, when they're walking across the
+
+[12:17] bridge and Indiana Jones cuts the bridge and the guy falls down into where the alligators or crocodiles are eating people alive, that's that's a use of the
+
+[12:25] screen. But it's once you know the screen, that particular scream. Maybe Jack can find it before the end of the episode and you can hear it. I'll just fill my pipe. I like that New York has it. The original news. All right, now you guys know it. You guys know it now? That scream? It's in every movie. That's great. That's green. Yeah. Okay, yes, it's in every screen. Yeah, yeah. Every screen. Once you hear that, it's not like, it's not, that's the not the natural human scream. It's just the Wilhelm screen that's being used in every movie. weird. and the wine is delicious Okay. So, 2nd question on potatoes. By the way, Michael is a recent FCI grad. is good. Um, and he's a developing... Jack is playing the Wilhelm
+
+[13:14] Scream. Oh, you did it? Come on. We're off the wheel. All right. See, this is what Nastasia does during the show. Instead of paying attention to what we're doing and try to help me get ingredients. She's like, I'll research the screen. She's great with sponsors, though. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. sponsors like sponsors like anyone other than me. Anyway, uh, okay. When my school instructor, chef instructor, so one of ours, the FCI, told me that we shouldn't use potatoes that are sprouting because once they sprout, they release poison into the potato. I'd like to know what's going on there. Would the potatoes be fine if I cut off the sprouts and a large portion of the potato from where the sprout
+
+[13:46] came? And are there any ways I can cook the tainted potatoes to make them safer? I'm the family chef at the executive dining room where I work. And so I get quite a few sprouting potatoes to work with. Okay, here's the deal. Potatoes, when they're exposed to light or otherwise after a certain length of time, go out of dormancy. When they go out of dormancy, they start to sprout. They also start to turn green. And that's a sign that this chemical called solanine is developing. So solanine is a very, very bitter and also poisonous chemical. There are actually have been some deaths attributed to solanine ingestion from potatoes typically during famine times. The good news about solanine is it's extremely bitter. So if your potatoes taste bitter, don't eat them, right? Also, the greening, when you see potatoes that are stored improperly in supermarkets, I see it all the time. The skin's turning green. The green is not actually the solanine forming. It's chlorophyll that's forming in the potato, but chlorophyll and
+
+[14:47] solanine develop at roughly the same time. So greening in a potato is indication that there's also a high solanine content in the potato. Sprouts have a large large potato sprouts, which you should never eat, have a large amount of celinine in them. So in a potato that's otherwise okay, that doesn't show like a lot of greening, you can cut out the sprout areas because here's the order.
+
+[15:10] Sprouts have the most solanine. The skin area that's turned green, has the 2nd most, solanine, and the inside of the potato has the least amount of solanine. That said, the worse off a potato gets in terms of once it's gone out of dormancy or started to sprout. The more solony is going to be found throughout. So, you want to peel the heck out of a potato that has that in it and you want to cut out a lot of the sprouty areas, right?
+
+[15:35] Now, the question is, can you get rid of it by cooking? You're not gonna get rid of it by boiling or by steaming. If you deep fry potatoes, you can extract some of it because I believe it's oil
+
+[15:49] soluble, the problem is it doesn't go away, it just gets extracted into the oil. So what you're doing is spreading the poison out over time. So the more you use the oil, the more you're spreading the poison out. Also, again, never eat potato foliage. So here's this. I was researching this. This is from the article, Solanine, glyco alkaloids and potatoes in a magazine, food and chemical toxicology in 1990. Uh, the highest total um, content of solanine and the potato planter and the foliage, the blossoms and the sprouts, followed by the peel and the tuber flesh.
+
+[16:19] Within the tuber, the concentrations are greatest in the layer, under the peel, and in the eyes. Another interesting fact about celinine is that very small amounts of it are considered necessary to the taste.
+
+[16:30] of it. So without it, the potato wouldn't taste like a potato, but a large amounts of
+
+[16:34] it not only will kill you, but will add a distinctly bitter taste followed by a longer lasting burning sensation in the throat. Break? Oh, all right. So there it is with your potatoes and we're going to go to our 1st commercial break. Cooking issues. Morning slaving for bread, sir. So that every month can be fed. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Get up in the morning,
+
+[17:08] fading in my predecessor. But that's what every month can be. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
+
+[17:18] oh, oh, oh, oh, ain't just said I want you to be. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I can't. Shut them, my tear up, chose this, chuckle. I don't want to end up life, bunny,
+
+[17:38] eyes clap high. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I don't, there must be a calm, it can catch me in
+
+[17:49] your palm, it's on your uh-huh.
+
+[18:03] And welcome back to cooking issues calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 and no, I didn't memorize it. Nastasio wrote down the number during the break. Listen, the Israelites, great tune. I'm not used to that version. Have you ever heard that? I've never heard that version before, but I like it. It's more rocking. I'm used to the, what is it? Desmond Decker? Uh, yeah, I'm used to that, but Nastasia picked that because if I have time about it later on today, we'll talk about it.
+
+[18:30] We're doing a shoot today for the Bourdain thing I mentioned, but the subject of the shoot is they wanted us to do a Christmas
+
+[18:37] feast and I was an ancient Christmas feast. So it's not a technical technological problem. It's more of my history interest problem. I was like, well, you know, Christmas wasn't a big feast until kind of recently, you know, it's kind of like a Victorian area thing
+
+[18:49] when we started having these giant Christmas feasts, you know, usually not really a very religious holiday. the more important one. You know what I'm saying? You should tell them about your Jersey Bible sometimes. Oh, yeah, well, I want to, I want to do a spoken, uh, I want to do a spoken word Bible completely in Jersey. Anyway, it's one of my later life goals after I retire from anything else from everything else that I've done. Okay, so, uh, like that's ever going to happen. Okay, so I said, listen, a much more interesting problem is what might they have been eating around Jesus' actual
+
+[19:19] birthday, right? That was the thing. And so I've been researching, um, recently, food, uh, that the Israelites would be eating, uh, basically throughout the history of Palestine, but more
+
+[19:31] specifically trying to figure out what would be going on in the Roman period, uh, right around the time the birth of Christ. And so if I have time, we'll talk about some of that stuff later on in the program. Okay. Now, I think it was last week. By the way, I'll tell you some stories about Panama real quick. Panama, uh, since I haven't spoken to you guys since I've been from Panama or the Harvard, where I was
+
+[19:52] uh, teaching uh, late last week, um, Panama is interesting. But as far as a food person, I'll tell you 2 quick, quick things about Panama. One, if you go to the fruit market at Panama, like bring some sort of moist
+
+[20:07] towelet because it's not super clean. I'm not saying anything negative about it, right? I know, you know, but check this out. I purchased a sack, a sack of 100 fresh
+
+[20:18] mango stains, right? Fresh mangostines for $17. All right? Now, that is an absurdly low price, and sat up on the roof, a bunch of us sat up on the roof, including, by the way, someone who should be an expert in
+
+[20:35] mangostines, Andy Ricker, famous, you know, chef in Portland area who does amazing work with Thai food. And it's the 1st time I met him actually in Panama. Great guy. We were hanging out. Uh, and uh, amazing, amazing. So he said they were very good. I mean, they were the best that I've ever had. And he said they were good too, and he's had them a lot in Southeast Asia. So he should know what's up. 100 mangazines, 17 bucks. I later heard on from a local that I got ripped off that he can get him for $15 a sack. So, you know, I got ripped off by 2 bucks. Here's another one for you. I saw a pickup truck, a pickup truck full of
+
+[21:09] Rambatans, and they were basically free. The rambatans were basically free. What's a rambutan? It's kind of like a leeche, but it's kind of furry and red. Do you know what I'm talking about? Furry looking in red. They call them Mamoncino. Not like Chinese Mammon instead of Mammonchio, which is basically their word for Spanish lime or ganeps. Anyway, which are also delicious and leche-like. Okay, so those are two. Oh, here's the other story from Panama. Panama comes from a word that means many fish, and they got fish all up and down the block because they're bordered by 2 oceans that are only an hour apart. Here's the sad part for you. This is where Panama really needs to break out the shine. Their mechanism for selling fish at the fish market. I visited the Panama City fish market is kind of abysmal. The like the lobsters, the spiny lobsters, which are flown in from the Caribbean, only, are trucked in from the
+
+[21:56] Caribbean, only an hour away from the market are already all dead. All of the local crabs that they call king crabs, but they're different from our king crabs, which look great. Everyone says they're delicious, all dead. Like the fish is kind of being stored in a horrible condition. So like they have an amazing natural resource there. But the way it gets to market, it gets kind of shafted. So, I mean, one thing I'd like to see in Panama is for them to, for chefs to basically say, hey, look, let's spend a couple of extra bucks and pay fisher, fisherman an extra couple of bucks to try and get the fish in top quality to the market, it'd be better for the people that are
+
+[22:31] fishing, and it'd be better for the chefs, and it would definitely do a lot to help high-end food, which I think they're working a lot
+
+[22:37] on food there now. think it's becoming more popular. Anyway, enough on Panama for now. Jason had an A question, which I... I answered part of it. And then I said we're going to research more. So you had a question about different kinds of eggs. And I didn't have the chance because I had only one hour of internet time for like
+
+[22:55] $8000 when I was in Colombia to look stuff up about the different kinds of eggs and whether they're different. And in my research this morning, I found a horrifying, but kind of like couldn't look away article, which has nothing to do with eggs. It's called interspecific, which I think they mean interspecies, interspecific
+
+[23:12] duck chicken, uh, chimera, uh, avian, uh, if it's from avian biological research in 2011. These guys took quails, ducks, and chickens, and
+
+[23:22] made, like, quucks,
+
+[23:26] like quail chickens, quail ducks, like chuck, chick chucks, like mixtures where they took, they took the, they injected duck, uh, like
+
+[23:34] duck DNA into, like, a quail egg or quail, and they have pictures of these kind of insane, uh, chimerical, like, uh, bird creations.
+
+[23:44] So if you want to see some crazy freaking birds. Go look up that article. Anyway. But I looked up, and there is, in fact, a big difference. It took me a while to find it, but there is a difference in the proteins that are available in different eggs. No one, I think, has done the study of how it affects cooking yet, because I wasn't able to find that. But the kind of holy grail of articles on this subject is from 2005, Martin
+
+[24:11] Miguel has the article called comparative study of egg white proteins from different species by chromatographic and electrophoretic
+
+[24:17] methods. And they tested hen, quail, duck, pheasant, and ostrich. And they showed that they all have the protein content in the ranges from 71 to 82%. Um, ostrich having actually the lowest protein concentration, uh, which is lower than 71%. And the highest is in quail and duck. But then they go on to talk about the various differences, but they don't really say how it affects cooking. So I can't really go into it there, but if you want to look at the specific protein differences between them, look up that
+
+[24:45] study. The comparative study of egg white proteins from different species by chromatographic and electrophredic
+
+[24:49] methods. Yeah? Canug? Done? All right. Okay, Colin writes in Colin, longtime listener. and writer in of things. I just snagged a rotor stater homogenizer off of eBay for a song. Uh, yes, and after bleaching out the preons, which, by the way, preons, uh, so, uh, rotor stater homogenizer, have we talked about this on the show? I feel like you did. Yeah, a little bit. Anyway. Basically, what it is is, imagine a
+
+[25:18] blender when you're blending something, right? The blades hitting the, uh, hitting the product or what breaks apart your, your part your food. So how small a particle that you can make is basically dependent on how fast the
+
+[25:31] blade hits a particle or the relative speed between a particle and the blade hitting it, right? So obviously faster blenders, with faster tip speeds make for smaller particles. But this stuff moves around in a blender, right? So you're not getting, because the particles are moving and because they can move out of the way of the blades, you're limited in kind of how much energy you can smash into it and how small a particle you can make.
+
+[25:54] In a rotor state or homogenizer, right? It's the equivalent of putting the particle up against a wall and then because it's got a stationary part. And then the other, the other part that's, the, so the state is standing still, the rotor is spinning, bam, goes right next to it, and there's such a small clearance that
+
+[26:10] it just obliterates the particles. So if you're going to turn it into a fighting analogy, It's the difference between punching someone in the face and putting their head on the curb and stomping on
+
+[26:18] it. In terms of the amount of, what, I'm trying to get someone an analogy that they can like quickly understand in terms of force involved. And so that's the kind of force difference that we're talking about in a rotor state or homogenizer versus a standard blender. Now, uh oh, I didn't finish this question. Okay, so he bought one of these suckers and he set to work creating an aioli with a stiff whippy texture of egg white, of egg emulsified
+
+[26:42] aioles, but using only garlic, olive oil, and salt. It's always proved impossible with a blender, mortar, and pestle. It just turns to soupy goo, which he doesn't enjoy. I like soupy goose sometimes. Do you like a soupy goo? Yeah, Nastachia likes soupy goo. Unlike biscuits, which someone commented on, but I got to find it. Okay. Okay, it was good. Did we ever follow up with the biscuits? Oh, Nastasia, in fact, did not like the biscuits even here. I had 2 different style of biscuits here, right? Or no, they made one style for me here, and they were quite good. They were a good biscuit. They're, I would call, I would call Roberta's biscuits, intermediate flaky, right? What do you call it? Would that? Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, intermediate flaky. Roberta's, by the way, have we talked about their review on the New York Times? No. Roberta's got a stellar two-star review that basically said the food deserves 3 stars, but it's kind of like a homey
+
+[27:30] atmosphere. all the hipsters. So they got like a 2 star review. Is that pretty accurate, Jack? They said the tasting menu deserve 3 stars, the regular menu was 2 stars, and the pizza and beer was one. So that's 6 by my count. Yeah, yeah. By the way, one star, by the way, doesn't mean that the pizza is bad. It just means it's like kind of, it's pizza, it's delicious pizza. It's good pizza. That's not trying to dowrate the pizza, right? So anyway, very good review. And I don't think we said it, but congratulate, we're going to chink our glasses here. Congratulations to Roberta and the whole team here. Well, I've been talking so much. I can't drink. can only drink during the break. There. I just drank on air. Are you happy? Okay. Oh, Bourdain's gonna love us. Okay. See, you made me forget what the heck I was talking about. I was reading Collins question. Okay, so he bought this rotor stater homogenizer and he's making some aioli with it. The problem was, because I got to find his thing here on my iPad. The problem with it was it turned green. And I believe we've talked about garlic turning green before. Harold McGee wrote an article on it. And basically what happens is, is that if you slice garlic, it's very rarely going to turn green or whole garlic will very rarely turn green unless it's cooked under very low temperatures or pickled in very specific
+
+[28:41] things. But when you puree it, um, as, and a rotor state or homogenizer is going to puree the heck out of it, right? There's an enzymatic process that goes on, whereby you create these colorless precursors that then over time, or under certain cooking regimes or in certain pH regimes,
+
+[29:00] it's acidic, go green. And is there any, he wants to know what causes it to go green. I just said so. And, uh, you know, and there's there's an article. I forgot to write it down, but if you go on the, on the, on the internet. So you can look up the article on it. Most of the research came out in the early 2000s on what was going
+
+[29:19] on, and it's basically a 2 or 3 step process, enzymes, and then those things interconverting later. The question is, is there a way to prevent this color change other than by cooking? Well, no. because he wants to maintain like the flavor. He wants to retain, Colin wants to retain the flavor of a fresh, uncooked garlic, but he wants it to not turn green. Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen. Here's what I suggest. Especially because with a rotor state, you're making such fine particle size that you're really just getting all of that stuff together.
+
+[29:49] So if ever there was a way to make something turn green, like that's the way to do it. Um, I don't think there's a way to to, to do it, to change it. Maybe if you put it maybe extremely basic, because if acidic conditions help it, maybe basic conditions stop it. But again, I'm just talking right out of my nether regions here. I have no idea. I have no idea. Uh, I would, I would do this. I would say add another flavor, let's say, a green herb, blanch the green herb, so it's not going to turn brown, and then, like, if it has some parsley in it, then it's supposed to be green, then no one's going to balk, right?
+
+[30:22] Right? Right? Okay. I'll try and think more about that. And I'll talk to McGee because McGee, who wrote the article on it in the New York Times, is, um, you know, he, you know, he knows a lot about that. He's probably thought about it more than I have. The other question Colin had was, what is it in garlic that acts as an emulsifier? I did a quick search on this and wasn't able to find anything that specifically acts as an emulsifier. However, garlics do have a category of compound in them called saponins. And saponins are, they're plant-based materials that have all kinds of different effects, but that one of them is that they're
+
+[30:57] surfactives and they can act as emulsifiers. They're basically they have both a hydrophobic and a hydrophilic component on them, so they can emulsify things. So this is a straight up guess. Oh, here's here's a, here's crapapedia's definition. Uh, saponins, glycosides, widely distributed in the plant kingdom, included a 1st group of compounds characterized by their structure, containing a steroidal or tri-terpenoid, uh, egg glycone and one or more sugar chains. Thank you, Wikipedia. Anyway, they're in garlic, and they can cause foaming and emulsification. So I'm going to go ahead and make the straight up guess that that is what's causing it. Colin also wants to know, is there any other good uses for the rotor state or homogenizer because Nathan Mirvold says it's one of his favorite things that he has in the kitchen. Okay. All right. Here are some things. And he calls out our oyster feeding thing that I did back on the blog years and years ago. The oyster feeding thing is oysters die if their gills clog up and they die. If you try to feed them particle size is much larger than about 10 microns, right? In size. And a vita prep blender can only really get down to about 20 microns or a little greater than 20 microns in size.
+
+[32:06] And so if you just use a blender, you're going to choke out the oysters, if you're making something like
+
+[32:12] a juice or something. So I basically put all the juice through a rotor stater homogenizer to get the particle size small enough so I wouldn't choke out the oysters, right? Another use is, is it the finer you emulsify something the whiter it's going to get and also the more stable it's going to be? So you can use a rotor state or homogenizer to make a category of things that, I guess, mirror
+
+[32:33] fold. It makes sense because, you know, I've made these things before too, called milks, where you take a small amount of
+
+[32:37] fat and you'll emulsify it into a liquid in kind of the ratios that you would have in milk.
+
+[32:42] So roughly like 4% fat, let's say, into a broth, but you can do it with something like duck stock and duck fat to make duck
+
+[32:50] milk, right? That's another application for the rotor state or homogenizer. Anytime you have something that's going to settle out over time, you're going to be able to make a more stable emulsion using a rotor state or
+
+[33:02] homogenizer. That said, you can stabilize stuff with emulsifiers that we use every day, like the Arabic
+
+[33:07] Xanthan, make sure that we use for everything. You can stabilize pretty dang well without using hardly anything better than a stick blender, you know, an immersion blender, but the flavor is going to change somewhat based on the ultimate particle size.
+
+[33:19] And I believe we talked about this when Mirville was on the show a couple weeks ago, right? A little bit because Mirrorville does, does like that. Um, I have not done too much cool business. What did I bust that out for recently? I had to bust it out. What the heck are we doing? Oh, oh. So Tony Kunoyara, one of our good friends, the proprietor of 69 Colebrook Row, our favorite bar in London, uses a rotor state or homogenizer to homogenize lime juice and says that it improves the flavor because he's keeping the particles in
+
+[33:50] there also improves supposedly. emulsifying ability, right? Because you're keeping all the particles in all the stuff in there instead of straining it out. also increases his yield because he's not getting rid of that stuff that he's strained out. Nastasia and I did some triangle tests at the Pegu Club. I haven't written it up on the blog yet. We weren't a triangle test is when we make 3 things, 2 of which are the same and one of which are different, and we, you know, do the
+
+[34:12] old Sesame Street, one of these kids is doing his own thing, and you try to figure out which one is different. It's triangle test. I haven't written about it, even though we did it months ago. Just come to jerk. I just haven't had time to write it up yet. But, um, we weren't able in triangle test to distinguish them, although I'm a little bit dubious of the straight triangle
+
+[34:30] test, because I didn't tell people what they were looking for, like what kind of different flavors and nuances they might be looking for, but it might make a difference in the lime juice itself, but it's hard to tell in the drink, whether that helps, but you can experiment with doing rotor stater on
+
+[34:43] juices, to put the pulp in and make them a little bit, um, a little bit, you know, different.
+
+[34:49] So you can give that a try. Okay. Michael Natkin writes in from herbivoracious, which is his blog, and he says, hey, Nastasia, because he doesn't like me, so he doesn't ask me,
+
+[35:00] he just wants to talk to you. Hey, Nastasia. I been working on how to make the most umami packed vegetable broth possible using a lot of ideas from both cooking issues in modernist cuisine. Would you pass this link on to Dave? I'd love to hear any comments or suggestions he has either by email or on the air. Well, here you are on the air. Okay. So he writes in his blog. I looked up some stuff. Uh, I just mentioned some of them. So he quotes this thing and I've heard it before. of Heston Blumenthal saying that there's some research at Star Anis, when cooked with sulfur compounds present in onions and other alliums, released a host of new flavor chemicals that enhance umami flavors.
+
+[35:33] All right, I've heard this a couple of times, Michael. I have not seen the research. I would love for someone to send me in the research because I wasn't able to find
+
+[35:39] it and I don't know about it. Although I have heard it. So please, please send that in. So Michael further writes, because he wants me to comment on his recipe here,
+
+[35:49] the vegetarian ingredients, this is Michael writing, best known for high concentration of glutamates or tomatoes, dried shiitake mushrooms,
+
+[35:55] marmat, kombu seaweed, and Parmesan cheese. He included the 1st 4 but omitted the Parmesan because he wants to keep it vegan. Uh, you know, because, you know, that way it's more all purpose. You know what I mean? World-purpose vegan. The challenge was to find a balance for these ingredients. It wouldn't allow anyone to dominate. I didn't want to taste it and say, wow, nice mushroom broth or dashi. Now, this is a huge problem, actually, because anytime you boost glutamate levels to a very high
+
+[36:19] level or glutamate IMP levels to a high level, you get a dashi like flavor. So Nastasia and I were tasting the foods of a major food manufacturer
+
+[36:29] who was trying to decrease the amount of sodium that they were using in their products.
+
+[36:33] And the way that they increased the palatability of these things, but at the same time decreasing the sodium, was to add
+
+[36:40] potassium monophosphate. Sorry, potassium agglutamate to it, right? And instead of sodium, MSG, monosodium glutamate, you add monopotassium glutamate, and you aren't adding the sodium, but you're adding the glutamate, which is the thing that's increasing
+
+[36:57] the umami, right? So you can make stuff that people think is okay, even though it has less salt in it. I have 2 problems with this. One, salt, there's no problem with it. Unless you are a very specific person that is hypertensive as a result of salt, you can have salt. Our great grandpappies and grand mammies ate so much salt that it would put us to shame because they had to preserve so many more foods than we had to because they didn't have refrigeration,
+
+[37:17] right? I have done detailed reading of as much salt literature as possible on the supposed deleterious effects of salt on our
+
+[37:25] health, and as far as I can tell, by my careful, careful, careful reading of it, they are bunk, right?
+
+[37:31] They are crap. So, and I've had discussions with this with many scientists, and I have yet to find
+
+[37:38] someone who has been able, and I'm not saying, I'm not a scientist. just reading the stuff that's there. And by through careful reading of it, you can see that most of this information is complete bunk. Um, but hey, call me and call me out on it. Tell me I'm a jerk, but I'm pretty sure that I stand okay as far as
+
+[37:56] the literature is concerned. I'm not saying it was true or false. I saying with the literature, what the literature is and most of it's crap. Okay, so don't reduce the salt. But the other problem is that, um, when they do that, when they reduce the sodium and increase, basically view mommy by jacking up glutamate levels, everything tastes like dashi. So you have a fettuccine Alfredo that tastes like dashi. Now it's not necessarily bad. I mean, I love Dashi, right? But, uh, you know, I wouldn't, uh, you know, I don't want my
+
+[38:25] fettuccine Alfredo tastes like Dashi, do you? And the other problem with this kind of technology, this technique of reducing salt and increasing glutamate levels and
+
+[38:34] things, is that everything just tastes the freaking same. It all tastes the freaking same. Like some sort of weird dashi. It's just a huge. I hope, I sincerely hope that people get off this kick of trying to reduce salt across the board and just focus on how things taste.
+
+[38:51] The reason they don't is because there's a bunch of wingings out there who not all, they think that you, that people add salt to process foods to somehow make them, I don't know, more addictive or to preserve them.
+
+[39:03] People add salt to processed foods because salt makes the stuff taste better. You know what I mean? And what happens when you when someone doesn't add enough salt to a food and you eat it? You dump freaking salt on it anyway. You know what I mean? Um, I'm not going to get into, like, the thing is, cooking issues position insofar as cooking issues position is Dave Arnold's position, which I guess it is. You salt, to make the stuff taste good. There are situations where we solve for safety, like when we're preserving meats or other reasons,
+
+[39:33] but, uh, you know, when you're trying to get a bind in a sausage, salt is adding a functional thing or salt and bread is not only taste. It's also, but um, you salt to make stuff taste good. So if you don't like the taste of salt, go ahead and don't salt it. But if you like the taste, which means that you're almost all of us. salt in normal in normal amounts. Okay. Um, so yes, you, Michael, you do not want to make a broth that tastes, uh, like dashi, unless you're shooting for a dashi. Okay, so his method is using a pressure cooker because a lot of us advocate pressure cooked stocks. So he put, he takes a pressure cooker, uh, and he cooks the stuff, um, including the onions and the combo and all of the other ingredients. Now, I'm going to say this. Here's my here's my critique of the recipe insofar as it stands, because he's pressure cooking everything. One, the flavor of onions is going to be increased in sweetness, but decreased in onion flavor by pressure cooking. So if you really want to onion up the thing and have more of a traditional onion
+
+[40:31] taste. I would saute some onions while you're pressure cooking. I would pressure cook the onions as well because that's delicious. But I would sauté some of the onions and I would put them into the, um, I would put them into the broth after you pressure cook it for a couple of minutes to let some of the fresher onion flavor
+
+[40:47] marry, just to increase or radically increase the amount of onion that you add to your
+
+[40:51] broth so it has more of a more of a direct onion profile. The 2nd thing is, I'd be a little cautious and pressure cooking the combo. If you like the flavor of the combo pressure cooked. Go ahead. I haven't done a lot of research on pressure cooking combo, but combo in general, they tend not to like it boils. I would do a pre-steep of the kombu, uh, in kind of, uh, I would do 60, uh, 60 to 70 degrees Celsius
+
+[41:15] water and then remove the kombu before going on to the pressure cooked step. I haven't, you know, done a lot of, you know, experiments on pressure cooking combo, but in general, that's been my experience
+
+[41:26] that the higher cooked combo is the less I like the flavor of it. Although I haven't done it in conjunction with all of those other ingredients. So I don't know. I don't know exactly how it works. But anyway, those are my basic critiques on the stock. All right. So Nastasia is telling me that we're running out of time, but I have one more question that I will get to, but I'm unfortunately
+
+[41:44] going to have to do it very quickly. Curtis writes in on ramen. I've recently been on the hunt. Good afternoon, Dave. I've been on the hunt for recipes and tips for making Japanese ramen from scratch, both noodles and broth. And having trouble finding English language resources for both the noodle and the broth, but the noodles are a bigger problem. There isn't much out there showing how the noodles are made. I've heard you can hand pull ramen noodles or you can send them through a pasta machine or even slice them with a knife, knife. Yet I've also heard that the dough is very dry and difficult to come together. How could you hand pull a dough of this consistency? I also know the noodles require a product called cansway or a mixture of potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate mixture. Is there any way to make this canceway, uh, as it's difficult to find? Okay, you can get cantsway or potassium carbonate bicarbonate at most Asian grocery stores if they're larger stocked, right?
+
+[42:25] Because they have this stuff. It's basically just a base. If you don't have that, you can use baking soda or you can bake out baking soda in the oven
+
+[42:34] to make sodium carbonate, which McGee talks about. And the base in, um, in it with does 2 things. One, it makes the noodles yellow. So use the church for yellow, alkaline noodles, Y-A-N, on the web, and it'll give you a lot of
+
+[42:47] information resources on cansway and how it's used. Other than just turning the noodles yellow. It also makes a gluten stronger, because in basic conditions, gluten is stronger and in acidic conditions, gluten is weaker. This is why sourdough breads are slack, right? And the yellow alkaline noodles are very toothy and have a lot of bite because you're shifting the
+
+[43:06] pH. So that it's 2 main functions. It increases the bite of the noodle by increasing the pH and it also turns them yellow. By the way, it affects wheat protein. Certain weeds turn more yellow than others. So those are the 2 main functions of can sway. You can substitute any base you want. They do add base to hand pulled noodles a little bit, and I don't know why. The whole way, and I've had this argument with many people, including Dave Chang, who was interested in doing
+
+[43:28] hand pulled noodles, at the same time as interested in doing ramen. Hand pulled noodles are all about needing for such a long time that you obliterate the
+
+[43:37] gluten. You obliterate its ability to basically be snappy because you need it to pull without snapping. Gluten, you pull it, and it forms that sheet, that window, but it does have a bit of a short texture. pull apart. So, uh, I don't know why you would, uh, I don't know why the addition of
+
+[43:53] cantsway is written in all the recipes. It must have something where you develop the gluten more quickly with the can
+
+[43:59] sway, and then it breaks apart when you hand pull them, but as far as I can tell, if someone call me in and tell me I'm a jerk, but can, ramen is not a
+
+[44:07] hand pulled situation. Hand pulled noodles don't have the bite of a ramen noodle, hand pulled noodles. I am not going to go so far as to say they're mushy, but they definitely don't have the same tooth that a
+
+[44:18] can't sway, you know, yellow alkaline noodle is going to have, which is all about the tooth and the bite. Now, as for ramen, the way it's typically made industrially is it's extruded through dyes into thin strips. It's then steamed, right? And after it's steamed, it's fried. So the main characteristics of a noodle, no matter what shape you make them, ramen. You could make them in a pasta machine if you want them or handcut them. If you want to know how to be a really ball or handcutter of noodles, go to a different technology, soba. And when you're hand cutting noodles and soba, the whole trick with cutting soba other than buying the really expensive awesome soba knife, which looks insane, like
+
+[44:52] in executioners. It looks like an executioner's axe, whether instead of a handle, you hold it at the top, is they put a board on top of the noodles exactly flat.
+
+[45:00] You stick the knife down and you never, the blade never leaves contact with the board. You angle the blade ever so slightly, which pushes the board over exactly one noodle length, and then
+
+[45:11] with a width rather, and without removing the knife from the board, you pull up the blade, put a
+
+[45:15] perpendicular, and slice down and keep going. That's how you slice butt kicking hand, hand, butt kicking hand, uh, cut soba noodles. You could do the same with a yellow alkaline noodle, but I don't think it's very traditional. You can also put it through a pasta machine. But the key thing is steam, then fry, to finish the dehydration
+
+[45:34] out, and there you have ramen. If you need more information or if you want a specific thing, I can look more into it for you, but that's the way she goes. And this has been the 53rd episode of cooking issues.
+
+[45:52] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. This is a message from Fork and Anger. Aaron Fitzpatrick, the host of our wine program, Unfiltered, is looking for help on
+
+[46:11] Kickstarter to open Fork and Anchor, a general store inspired by two food loving ladies with an equal affection for urban life, the sea, and the agricultural paradise of Long Island's North Fork.
+
+[46:21] The store is situated in a growing community of farmers and winemakers, and will become a meeting place offering prepared foods, a variety of sun dries, and a selection of homespun products, many of which will have their origins in New York
+
+[46:31] State. Your backing will help them fulfill their dream of fostering relationships with the community and making the local food system accessible on a broader scale. Search Kickstarter.com for forth and anchor and donate today.
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+[0:00] Raketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
+
+[0:06] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is, with Raketin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[0:36] points, and with many loyalty programs, because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead. Take a trip, find that perfect hotel, book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain, wherever you want to go, go with
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+[0:51] Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's RAK-U-T-E-N. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[1:13] I'm Sam Edwards. I'm 3rd generation Cure Master from S. Wallace Edwards and Sons in Surrey, Virginia. We support the Heritage Radio Network because we believe in the cause of what they're doing. They're supporting family raised livestock, small family farms, certified humane,
+
+[1:31] pasture raised, antibiotic free. Basically, we take the products from Heritage Food USA and make them into Serrano style hands, prosciutto style hands, bacon, sausage, like my grandfather did. You can find us at SurreyFarms.com or VirginiaTraditions.com.
+
+[2:02] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, approximately in the studio today in
+
+[2:12] Bushwick with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who's looking up some last minute questions that you guys have sent in. How you doing, Nastasia? Fine. It's a, yeah, right, you sound really fine. And fine. Anyway, it's a crappy day out here in Bushwick, and I had a crappy bike ride, but I won't talk about it. I won't bore you with it. Calling all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 for all of your questions. Cooking or not, really. Tech or not, any questions will take them. Anyway, 1st question in on the email is from Mike Anonymous. Oh, shoot. I should talk about today's sponsor. Today's sponsor is the same sponsor as last week, which is the modernist pantry. I'll read their little blurb, because I'm obliged, and I'm going to talk about it a little bit. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, ph modifiers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues. Oh, by the way. So this last week we ran a promotion, and so rather than read the little same blurb, because it's the same thing as that. I'm going to give a follow-up. Chris wrote into us and said, we got a good response from last week's show. He says we have a group of avid fans from around the world following us. That's very gratifying, right, Nastasia? Yep. Yeah, she doesn't care if she's doing something else. Since a bunch of people didn't hear the podcast in time to take advantage of the free meat glue. Monitor's pantry is going to run the special again this week and leave it opening until, leave it open till next week's show. So all of you that call in for this entire week until next Tuesday's podcast can get the free sample of
+
+[3:45] Meat Glue from Modernist Pantry, and the code that you need to enter, the promo code is CI, as in cooking issues,
+
+[3:52] 54. That's CI 54. Uh, and please let, uh, let them know that you, uh, oh, also. Tell them, you know, obviously they know that you listen to this show if you put in CI 54. Tell your buddies too. It's gonna make it seem like we have a lot of listeners. In addition, we mentioned last week, we were hoping that they were going to be able to get Pectinex SPL, which is the miracle enzyme that we use for almost everything.
+
+[4:14] We use it for clarification, either with or without a centrifuge, although it really only clarifies thinner
+
+[4:19] juices like apple juice without a centrifuge. We use it for French fries, make them really crispy, and we use it for
+
+[4:26] auto-supreming citrus, and things like that. They're going to be carrying that in a week or so. They don't have a pre-order page yet. Oh, but keep your highest peeled because they're going to start carrying it, which is really great because we hate carrying that stuff, right, Nastasia?
+
+[4:41] You can still get it for the current time being through the FCI, through the French culinary
+
+[4:47] contact Erve Malavere, but I'm looking forward to a worldwide supply in small quantities from Chris
+
+[4:52] Anderson at the modernest pantry. So thanks guys, and make sure to go to www.modernpantry.com. Modern Ist, pantry.com, and type in cooking issues, CI, 54. 54. Yes. 54 for your free Meek loose handle. Anyway, uh, 1st question in is from Mike Anonymous. We've gotten stuff from Mike Anonymous before, right? It's a good name. Wouldn't be awesome if that was his actual name, like Anonymous, that would suck growing up, right? No that's my name. Anyway, okay. Mike says, I would like to hear your thoughts on what new technologies we can expect to find in the home kitchen in the near future. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on induction burners as I hope to update my stove in the near future. Sincerely Mike Anonymous. Okay, interesting question. I get this question actually quite a bit. I'm, you know, for a living, I'm mainly concerned with what goes on in restaurant kitchens, but I also am interested in what's going on in
+
+[5:44] home kitchens. Here's what I think. Here's what I think. Regarding induction burners. They're awesome. They are really, really awesome. There's a number of problems with induction burners that have stopped them from becoming kind of, you know,
+
+[5:57] set from saturating the market. If you currently own an electric stove. If you don't have gas, the very next thing you should do after listening to this podcast is go home, tear out your electric range, whether it be a ceramic top
+
+[6:11] or, you know, one of those little curly, curly resistance heater jobs, tear it out of the wall and throw it away and buy an induction unit right now. I mean, like before you do anything else, because if you're already running electric for your range, you have no excuse. Electric is expensive. It's very inefficient compared to an induction burner. and it heats up your kitchen, and it also takes a long time to heat up and cool down. It has a weird porpoise effect. I do test cooking with normal electric ranges. If you've never used an induction burner before. They're kind of miraculous. They, um, They heat up almost instantly and they cool off almost instantly. Uh, and, you know, everyone's like, me, me, well, maybe my pots won't work. You can buy a little slug of iron. Coon recon cells, one, for instance, that you could put right on top of an induction burner and turn any pot, a clay pot, an aluminum pot, whatever, into an induction friendly pot.
+
+[7:05] And if you factor in the cost of a range and the kind of electrical savings and the fact that you won't be
+
+[7:10] air conditioning your house to make up for the fact that you're dumping all the extra heat into the house,
+
+[7:15] um, it really saves money in the long run, even if you have to get rid of a few pots and pants. So if you're already electric, please go get an induction right now. If you run gas, there's a couple of problems with induction. One, we are kind of the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. We have natural gas leaking out of our pipelines. Like, we have so much natural gas that, you know, your local utility can't even tell if there's an appreciable amount
+
+[7:39] leaking, just because it's dribbling everywhere. It's preposterously cheap natural gas in this country. If you live outside of this country in Europe, for instance, or I don't know what these situations elsewhere where natural gas is a lot more expensive and electric is more competitive from
+
+[7:51] a, from a, you know, from an energy standpoint, energy user standpoint, also you should move to induction right away. In the US, um, cast is so cheap, uh, that it's kind of hard from an economic standpoint to make the jump right away. Now, induction is faster, as fast as gas. Let's put it that way. And in some cases, faster because you're directly heating the pot, instead of having gas, heat the pot. It's incredibly more efficient than gas. So for a smaller amount of energy usage, you're getting a lot more heat on the pot. So we have a standard kind of commercial style range in our amphitheater at
+
+[8:28] school, and we put like kind of a standard home induction unit next to the commercial
+
+[8:32] range, and the home induction unit boils water faster than the range does.
+
+[8:36] So you really can't compare BTUs of gas output to how many watts are going into your induction burner.
+
+[8:42] You need to compare how fast they boil water. And a decent sized induction burner is usually faster than a decent sized gas burner and typically doesn't heat up your house a lot. So it's fantastic that way. But it has a disadvantage that gas is a lot cheaper. Also, people aren't used to using an induction burner, and they can't see kind of how much power they're putting into it, so there's a little bit of a learning
+
+[9:03] curve, and the other problem is inductions are a lot more fragile. A gas unit is never going to break. And you might have to remount the gas jets or whatever, but basically that sucker is going to work from now until your kids are old. Do you know what I mean? And so those are the 22 main things, but I really, really like inductions. Was that call for us? No. Just a random call. You forgot to turn off your phone? Really? All right. Uh, in terms of other things that are good for uh, Home Kitchen, I sincerely hope that um, sous vide is going to become more popular. Actually, low temperature cook. I can't believe I made that mistake of all people. Low temperature cooking is going to be more important. And I'm hoping that a lot of people have circulators. I am hoping circulators, emerging circulators come down in price, simply because when you throw a party, they make you look like a complete rock star because you don't have to spend a lot of time in the kitchen while your guests are there. The food comes out, always perfect, always good. I love them. I use them all the time. I used one last night. I use one this weekend. At home, I'm talking. I use my circulator all the time. For reheating also, it's very good because it's not going to ruin your food on a reheat. The problem with it is not only the $800 price tag. The problem is that, you know, there's not that many cookbooks and sources out
+
+[10:16] there. I mean, our blog, I'm supposed to write more on this subject, but it's not as many recipes out
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+[10:21] there, as there could be, and not as much knowledge as there could be. And part of the problem is, is that it's hard to get a major publisher to put out kind of a simpler
+
+[10:30] book because not that many people have the unit. Yeah, it's kind of a catch 22. So, you know, you don't want to come out with a book that then requires you to buy an 800 piece of dollar piece of equipment to own the
+
+[10:39] book and, you know, so it's one of these like chicken egg problems. But, you know, I think there's enough information there on the internet, enough early adopters and people who are willing to experiment that within 10 years, you're going to see circulators drop in price again and also become a lot more common in home kitchens because they're really good in home kitchens for the same reason they're good in a restaurant kitchen.
+
+[10:59] You're going to mess up your food less often. You're going to have more control, delicious results, without a lot of time, when you want to be eating with your family. So I think that's going to be a huge thing. As for other innovations in the in the home, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I hope that our refrigerators and freezers get better, right? Although, I have you know, for those of you that have never been in a professional kitchen before, commercial fridges and freezers, typically, there's a couple exceptions.
+
+[11:24] Like, I like the guys at Randolph. They're the worst. They break all the time, they're loud and they're completely inefficient. So home fridges and freezers are actually already quite good compared to commercial ones, but I think they have a long way to go. I'm hoping more people have really butt kicking blenders in their house, which we'll talk more about blenders in a minute. Anything else you can think of that we usually harp on, Nastasha? I think you covered it. Yeah? Yeah, nothing else. I mean, I, you know, you guys, like, in the home, no one's gonna go. Hey, look, should you get liquid nitrogen? If you have a lot of parties in an outdoor space? I mean, yeah, I mean, you need to follow the safety rules, but I like liquid nitrogen a lot. Do I think it's going to be in everybody's house? No. Everyone who drinks seltzer should have a professional carbonation rig right now. Like, if look, if let me put it this way, if you carry more than one case of seltzer home a week, you should get a professional seltzer rig or at least one of those soda streams tomorrow. First do the induction. After you get the induction squared away tomorrow, go out and get the carbonation rig. I'm trying to think of what else I have. Most people aren't going to get commercial units, you know, restaurant units in their home like I have. Most people aren't going to get a large deep fryer at home, although I love mine. I have a £35 deep fryer and a fry like a mamma jam. I'm much better than a home fryer, but I don't think people are going to get that. I don't think most people are going to get the $400 blender, although I advocate it, right? Um, In the future, there might be a one stop machine that can be a really good rice cooker and a pressure cooker. That might be good, save some countertop space. But, you know, people aren't going to get freeze dryers and homogenizers and all that stuff at home just because there's not as many applications,
+
+[12:51] there's not a, um, they don't warrant the counter space in the time. And, you know, the energy involved. You know what I mean? Yes, now my iPad turned off, so I have to go find the next question. Okay. Well, I do have a question on blenders. Should I take the question on blenders or should we go to the 1st commercial break, you think? I'll take the question on blenders and if I have to run long, I'll run long. Okay. So, uh, a big hello from James in Australia to the entire cooking issues team. And by the way, James wrote in a question and then answered the question and then asked a separate question. So I'm just going to go over the question. We'll see how it works out. James is after a new blender, but down in Australia, Vitapreps, which are the blenders that we use up here in New
+
+[13:28] York and all of the US, really. Vitapreps are insanely expensive, like more than 1200 bucks, uh, which is slightly less than the uh, polycience, uh, immersion circulators cost over there. And there is no secondhand market, which there really is, and people don't tend to give up their Vitapreps unless they're dead unless they're broken. A home style model is a VitaPrep because VitaPrep makes a home version and a commercial version. You know what the difference is? Almost nothing, except the warranty. They give you a crappier warranty on the commercial unit because they know that you're going to beat the ever-leving crap out of it. Anyway, the home unit is just under $1000. My other options are a home grade blend tech, which is another good blender, uh, that comes in around $800, but there's a locally made option, a Breville that's about $250, which is also available in the
+
+[14:13] US. It's 2000 watts, 500 watts more powerful than the blend tech, and the consumer vitamixes. Uh, and so the question is basically, and it's the hemisphere model of Breville. I going to have a lot to say about this. And then he basically, um, Well, okay, so he comes up with another one later called a Samic. Uh, is that what it's called? You gotta find it for me, Nastasia. It's called a CMAC, which is from Australia, CMAC blender, which looks like a really professional kind of butt kicking unit, which
+
+[14:42] is I think we is going to go after. And his question is basically, what's the difference between all these blenders? What the hell's the deal with blenders anyway? How to choose a blender, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. So, the reason we like Vitapreps in this country is twofold. One, they are strong. They're very powerful, especially the new Vida Prep 3s and they have an even more monster one that's very, very powerful. You can't go on wattage rating alone. The wattage is kind of a BS unit, a BS unit of measure of how that's basically just saying how much energy is it sucking out of the wall. If you put, you know, a 1000 watt light bulb on a wire and then attached a 200 watt motor to it and
+
+[15:21] to hook that up to a blender, you know what you have there? A 1200 watt blender, even though you're throwing away a 1000 watts of that
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+[15:27] as light and heat. Do you get what I'm saying? So don't take the watt edge as the rating. What you really care about is how much power is the blender delivering to your
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+[15:37] food. Um, and, you know, that basically translates into how fast is the tip of the blade moving relative to the food that you're
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+[15:45] blending? And we talked a little bit about this last week when we were talking about rotor state or homogenizers, and they put so much more energy into your food because they can stop your food from moving so that you can smack it with a moving blade, right?
+
+[15:57] So we talked a little bit about why a rotor state or homogenizer for a given amount of
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+[16:01] wattage, energy you're putting into it, can deliver more shearing power onto your food. So don't go directly on um, don't go directly on the wattage. What you have to figure out is what the speed of the blade is
+
+[16:15] going to be underload, right? That's really the important thing. And Vitaprep does very, very well at that. BlendTech does very, very well at that as well, which is another unit you can get in the US. It actually has a slightly wider blade in most Vitapreps, and I think it's a better tip speed, so. So theoretically it gets a better product. But here's where Vitaprep really wins over all other blenders in the
+
+[16:36] U.S. that I've used so far, and that is the user interface. If you're making smoothies all day, right? You want to press a button and you want to have that smoothie just get made, and it's going to go through a bunch of profiles to make sure they think it's blended properly, and you don't want to have to scoop and mix around with all kinds of things. Um, blend techs are great at that because they're designed for juice bars. And that's why they have a lock on a lot of the juice bar market in the
+
+[17:00] U.S. because any monkey can throw a bunch of bananas into a blend
+
+[17:05] tech along with some protein powder and a bunch of other crap. Press a button and walk away and you get a smoothie that's smooth, it doesn't have a lot of chunks and particles in it, right? Vitapreps, on the other hand. Typically, they used to have a kind of a bad blender pitcher style that required you to use a tamper to kind of move things
+
+[17:21] around. Otherwise, it tends to choke up at the base, right? Which is kind of unfortunate. The benefit of that choked up based on a blender at the bottom of a
+
+[17:30] vitaprep, that people don't talk about, is that you can get a smaller amount of liquid to blend properly in a
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+[17:35] vitaprep than you can in the equivalent blend tech, because you have to fill the blend tech up above the blade level before it starts blending properly, and it's a much wider area down there than it is in the
+
+[17:44] Vitaprep. But that said, if you're going to blend a whole bunch. The Blentech has a better geometry at the bottom of its, the bottom of its pitcher to get the stuff going. Vitaprep has a new pitcher that is has a similar geometry. Anyway, that's, you know, a little bit here or there. But where the Vitaprep really wins is on that interface. It's got 2 flap switches and a knob. When you're a cook, you don't want to have to have your boss come in and program, I'm going to make a pesto into your freaking blender. You want to have a switch so that you can, and then go in high and spin it high when you're going. That's what you really want. And Vitaprep is the best at giving you immediate feedback with, you know, potentiometer knob that tells you, you know, that lets you set exactly how fast you want it to be at this minute.
+
+[18:26] Flip it between high and low with big old style goofy paddle switches, with very minimal electronics, right? And that's really where the Vita Prep is awesome. Even though that, uh, that little potentiometer thing goes crappy a lot and you have to replace them after a couple of years, they start getting all wonky on you and then you'll turn it on and
+
+[18:45] it'll bring, without you turning it, everybody hates that and you'll eventually spray stuff all over your ceiling. The user interface is so good that people love it. And this is why, and I called the guys at Blentech, frankly, maybe 5 years ago, 4 years ago, and I was like, look, you have an awesome piece of equipment, your user interface sucks. What you need to do is build a unit for chefs. It just has a knob and, you know, and 2 buttons, like the Vitaprep has. And they said, yeah, but this really gives control to that. I was like, listen, shut up. I'm telling you, a cook wants 2 flip switches and a knob to change the speed. So anyway, the CMAC unit looks very good. It is also completely electronically controlled, so I'm sure it does really well in the juice market. Um, you know, uh, James said that he, you know, he said that basically all of the reviews he gets off of raw and
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+[19:28] vegan like websites and kind of, you know, impugns their their taste a little bit because they've already made such a poor life choice
+
+[19:34] and being a raw vegan, his word is not mine. And while that might be true, James, they are like raw vegan people know a boatload about juicing because they have a whole subculture that basically turns everything they eat into a liquid and drinks their food in liquid form.
+
+[19:49] So whether or not you agree with their life choices, they know from juicing and blending, and the Australian website that he sent me to, which is Battle of the
+
+[19:58] Blenders dash pumpkin, if you want to look it up on the internets and the YouTube, and the Australian dude in that actually has a really nice term for, instead of high-speed blenders, he calls them power blenders, which I really like, because it
+
+[20:10] makes, it makes it seem like your blender is a puny blender, unless it's a power blender, right? So he has this one, this Australian one called CMAC. if there's anyone in Australia, I would love to try a CMAC, like, I don't know if I ever get to Australia or if anyone ever wants to send one to us, I'd love to try it. It basically electronically senses whether or not you're blending properly and adjust the speed automatically. And while that sounds great, I still want the control. I want the flap doodle and the control. So I'd love to be able to have that electronic BS, but I'd love to also be able to shoot it in the head and be able to run my blender like a normal blender.
+
+[20:39] The other one also from Down Under, but available here that he mentions is Breville, Breville makes a good quality blender. I'll tell you a little story about this. I was doing a demo with Chris Young in Florida for the Miami food and what's it called? South Beach Food and Wine Fest with Chris Young from the Modest Cuisine. And this lady, we were, we were fluffing, we were, you know, fluffing for a bunch of food network stars like
+
+[20:59] Giada and stuff. This little cake comes up and he's like, he, she raises her hand. I think she's got a question from me or for Chris. We're like, yes, little girl, what's going on? She's like, I made this pasta necklace for Giada. I'm like, oh, jeez. So I had to save the pasta necklace. And I mean, I couldn't tell the kid, listen, I've never met Giada, and they're going to hustle my butt out of
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+[21:16] here and like, you know, basically flush me down the toilet before they bring Giada on with her entourage, but I was like, look, kid, I'll leave the pasta necklace around this
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+[21:24] thing, and I'm sure Giada will see it. So hopefully Giada got her pasta necklace. Anyway, that's aside the point. Breville was sponsoring one of the things there and they had the rep there and they show me the blender pitcher. And she says to me, you can't break it. Go ahead, try to break it. I said, really? She's like, yeah, this lady had never met me before. So I said, okay, all right then. So I put it on the ground and I jumped up as high as I could and stomped on the blender like 3 and 4 times. And I was able to shave a portion of the blender off because it was on concrete. I was able to shave a corner off of the blender pitcher, but the blender pitcher did in fact not break. So one of their marketing claims is that the blender pitcher is very strong, and indeed, it is. Whether or not the blender itself, it can get close to a Vita Prep. don't know. I've seen some favorable reviews, but I've never actually blended with it because we didn't have the stuff on hand to blend. And those are my feelings on blending. Oh, by the way, one more thing. Do not read any any magazine out there. whether or not they're my friends. Like popular mechanics, they're a friend of mine. Uh, you know, I've worked with them. Um, you know, Cooks Illustrated. I'm fine with those guys. Never believe anyone's blender ratings. They don't know what the hell they're talking about. They give you stupid reasons to like or dislike a blender. The only thing that matters is, can it take, can it take a sauce that you would have had to strain through a tammy and make it so that it's
+
+[22:43] silky, smooth and delicious? Can it get the particle size down below or close to about 20 microns so that you taste this stuff
+
+[22:50] as being smooth? And very few blenders can do that. The blend tech can do it. The Vitaprep can do it. I'm assuming that the CMAC can do it. I don't know if the Brevel can do it. But it's not whether or not it can make a margarita because in a kitchen, that's not really the test we care about. It's can it make a sauce smooth. So we'll take a commercial blake, break, think about blenders, and we'll be back.
+
+[23:21] This with leather, Chris, Mr. Pepper,
+
+[23:26] Freaks, fly together. Make it all a big boy scream. All right. All right. Turn it up now. Oh, all right. Shut it up now. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh What up to?
+
+[23:51] She's always collamping. Byzine after camping. I just wanna watch you dance. All right. Oh, right. Turn it up now. Turn it up Shut it up now. Do you wanna ride on the world to see? I'll be your mistress, see, OD. Comb your hair touch your diary Oh, shit, babe, on the honey beat. She can really kill me. She can really do me. She can look more through me. I think I'll be more screaming. You are the mother, love. There's a meaning in the way I'm the people who make it. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. That song goes out to Colin because Nastasia has broken some secret code in Collins messages when he comes in that he likes that song. That true or false? you know, Nastasia's good at those secret codes. But here is a longtime listener Collins questions on the ultrasonic homogenizer. By the way, an ultrasonic homogenizer is something that vibrates very
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+[25:24] rapidly. It uses a Piso, like a Piso, transducer, vibrate very rapidly. And you can use it for a couple of things. One, you can make an ultrasonic fog with it, which is how humidifiers work. You can clean jewelry with it by shaking with it. That, how an ultrasonic jewelry thing works. A homogenizer uses very focused, high power sonic energy to cavitate, make little bubbles and actually rupture things.
+
+[25:47] So that's what an ultrasonic homogenizers. I have one. And when you run them, people run screaming from the kitchen because they make horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible noise. Yeah? Horrible. Noustache is nodding. Yes. Okay. Collin wants to know. Couldn't one use an ultrasonic homogenizer such as a Branson, uh, or the new poly-science sonic prep, which I'm sure is a relabeled Branson, uh, because not very many people make these things, uh, as a highly effective toothbrush. As the only rigid bodies in the mouth, full of soft matter, the tooth, as the only rigid bodies in a mouthful of soft matter, the 2 services would likely get the most
+
+[26:22] cavitation action. You can safely immerse your hand into an ultrasonic bath. So I was wondering if the more sensitive skin on the mouth might fare as well. Obviously, you would reduce the wattage, so it acts more of a cleaner than a dismembrator, which is something that takes the membranes off of cells, which is another thing they call
+
+[26:36] them, sonic dismembrators. I would certainly work better than those tongue scrapers and would cavitate the bits, bits of mixed business from between one's teeth better than floss. Modern chefs would have no more excuses for halitosis, praise the day. And he's wondering if this is true or false. Don't do that, Colin. Don't do that. Colin don't do that. Look, I have one. And, you know, I had for a while until it broke an ultrasonic toothbrush, but they're basically vibrating very softly.
+
+[27:05] If you take an ultrasonic homogenizer, and it's a demo I used to do to show not to mess around with them. I would take the probe and stick it into a dish towel and fire it up and it would catch the dish towel on fire from the friction of it going back and forth.
+
+[27:19] So, I mean, you could theoretically hook a rubber toothbrush sucker up to it
+
+[27:24] and, uh, turn the power way down, but then you're dealing with like a $2000 piece of equipment that you're turning into
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+[27:31] a, um, you know, into a, uh, you know, a $50 toothbrush. They make, like, you can buy, like, a $50 or an $80 ultrasonic toothbrush. And I would definitely go that way, never stick an ultrasonic homogenizer in your mouth for any reason under any circumstance. And this is, again, not one of those. Jack, we were supposed to have like a noise that meant Davis serious this time or something like that, but we never got it. Dave is serious this time. Never stick an ultrasonic homogenizer in your mouth. Okay. H. Monterre writes in about whipped cream. Is there a way to make heat resistant whipped cream that will hold its shape when put into something
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+[28:04] hot, like a canal or a soup? Yes. You like that, nostalgia? Yes. One of my famous one word answers. Okay, here's the issues. And this is the typical thing that you have to do. When you're using a hydrocolloid, which is new aid thickener, a gelling agent, right? You're looking for right now the thing to keep it, keep it hot. Whipped cream itself doesn't stay when you put it into hot things. So what you need to do is make the flavor of whipped cream using an entirely different technology. So the question is, and this is basically, so when Wiley's doing is fried mayonnaise. What does he do? He makes something that's not mayonnaise, that tastes like mayonnaise, that has the texture of mayonnaise, right? But is in fact a fluid gel made out of geland, that's heat stable. So it's texture of mayonnaise in a heat stable form. right? And he can flavor it however he wants. So he does the same thing with hollandaise. He has flavor of hollandaise in a heat stable form which happens to be a fluid gel. Now, you could make a cream flavored fluid gel out of
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+[29:07] gelan, for instance. You can then whip that in an ISI maker, right? And you can have a very creamy mousse, or you, you know, something like that. So you would make a moose that's whipped with whipped cream kind of a texture to it that's either a fluid gel or even like a set moose using a
+
+[29:24] gel, and make it heat stable. But without actually running the tests, I don't know what's going to make the most whipped cream texture. So you might be best off with like a gel and fluid gel stabilized whipped cream, right? So you could take a jeland fluid gel, mix it into regular whipped cream, whip it, and then see whether it'll hold when it's hot or whether the fat will bleed out. You might have to, um, actually whip, cream, uh, like over whip, like you have the problems you have to stabilize it so it doesn't over whip. So you'd have to use like a light cream, maybe, whip it with a versa whip and set it with another gel that sets when it's hot, like you can set it almost like a moose with like with gel in or with something
+
+[30:03] else, and that's heat stable, agar, maybe, and set it and see what's going on. So there's a number of different things you can do, but whipped cream itself isn't
+
+[30:12] going to stabilize. You're going to basically have the flavor and texture of whipped cream using an entirely different method of setting.
+
+[30:17] So you'd have to run a whole bunch of different tests, but that's how I'd go about kind of setting up the experiment if you're going to do it. Does that make any sense? Made sense. Well, it does because she has to listen to me talk about this crap all the time, so I'm sure this stuff makes some sort of sense to her anyway. Okay. Um, so, uh, we have, when is it, Nastasia, when's our museum event? Thursday, September 29th, from 7 to 10 PM. Right. At Mopesh. At Ma Pesh, at the at the restaurant, Ma Pesh, which is on... basically taking it over. It's on uh 56th.
+
+[30:54] Is there a party going on in our background? Do you hear that on headphones? It's really loud. 50 15 West 56th Street between 5th and 6th. All right, so Mopesh, we're taking over. There's a bar at the mesmeine level when you walk in and we have an upper story at the hotel. Apparently the hotel is called the Hotel Chambers. It's not called the Ma Pesh Hotel, although you could have fooled me. Anyway, so we're going to have an event there. There's going to be 5 bartenders. And do we have the 5th one yet or no? No, it might be you. It might be Don Lee. Might be me, Mike. Don, if you're listening, we want it to be you because I want to try and get out of one of these events without actually having to make a cocktail. But we have so maybe Don Lee, right? Who else we have? We have Evan Clem. Uh-huh, we have Kenta. Kentagota from he's actually the best bartender in the world. He won that last universe, actually, right? Assuming that there's no other good mixed drinks anywhere, you know, wherever there's intelligent life, assuming they don't have mixed drinks there. you know, which is a fair shot. The best bartender in the universe, won that at the tails of the cocktail this year. Who else we have? We have... Chad and Christie. Oh, yeah, Chad, Chad Solomon, Christy Pope. Jason Lutrell, right? Is that five? You sure I'm not missing anyone? And the gimmick on this one. The gimmick is, if cocktails were street food from X, right? So we have absolute vodka, so that would be if cocktails
+
+[32:17] or street food from Sweden, and what else we have? We have Bombay East. I'm not sure whether Jason's going to choose Vietnam or Thailand because the thing they add to Bombay East is either Vietnamese,
+
+[32:27] peppercorn, or Thai lemongrass. And what are the other ones we have? We have Hendrix. Hendrix, which we're doing England because it's gin, right? And we couldn't do 2 gins for me. anyway, whatever. Next. 901 Mexico. And what? Wait, did you say absolutely? Absolute. We didn't get all five. we're missing one. Someone's gonna get mad at us. Yeah, I know. Oh, makers. Maker's Mark from the United States of America, giving that one to Chad and Christie because of their Southern heritage. Anyway, there are still slots available if you want to go next
+
+[32:57] week and you should go to what website to do that? HTTP, colon backslash, backslash, mofedmembership.eventbright.com. But I guess you just do mofad membership.eventbright.com, right? Right. And come prepared to spend some freaking money because we're going to have a donation
+
+[33:13] bucket and we're also going to have an auction. And what we're trying to do is keep the museum of food and drink afloat. You can go look at the last post we have for the last fundraiser, which was a serious, serious event. This one's going to be just cocktails, but we hope it's going to be a lot of fun. I don't hope it's going to be a lot of fun. Do we know anyone that's going to show up? not going to give away. We're going to try to get some nice special guests that you can mingle with if you come to the event, correct? Yes. All right. Uh, so, uh, a note of what I am doing today. Well, actually, we didn't talk about Bourdain shoot, right? You didn't talk about Harvard. about Bodangsh, yeah. We allowed to talk about the Bourdain shoot? Is half of your phone broken? Folks out there, half of my earphone's broken, so it feels really weird. I feel like I'm about to I'm constantly turning around my microphone like a, oh, there we go. Um, so, uh, last week we did the Tony Bourdain shoot, and the theory of this was for no reservations was this Christmas show. And so I said I didn't want to do an ancient Christmas dinner because really I didn't think Christmas was so important as an ancient dinner source, so I wanted to do
+
+[34:10] what, what would Jesus have eaten or what would Mary and Joseph is what I was thinking eating around their birthday? And the research we did was pretty, um, was pretty, I thought pretty interesting. We found out that they used an oven in
+
+[34:23] the in that era in that zone in Palestine, very similar to an Indian tandor oven of today. And in fact, that style of oven was widespread all the way from
+
+[34:33] India, where it's popular today, up through, you know, like where, you know, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, all that stuff is all the way over through the Middle East and all the way over into
+
+[34:43] Africa. So they had this huge range where this oven, and it's basically like a conical vessel that you fire from the bottom and you load from the top,
+
+[34:51] was basically used throughout this region. So I thought that was awesome. And I've always wanted a tandor. So Cliff and Piper, and I, you know, 2 of my
+
+[35:01] ex interns, built a tandor, like, in like 3 hours from crap that we could find at the hardware store. First, we called all these places. you get us to Tandor? Can you get us a tandor? And, like, it was a 1000 bucks in like 2 weeks to wait, so I was like, crap on that. We built it from flower pots and sand. And actually, you can find on the internets. If you just look up flower pot tandor into any of the make sites. You can figure out how to make a flower pot tandor. And that thing worked straight up great. We used a, uh, you know, frankly, it was delicious, right? We made pigeon because one of the things that Mary,
+
+[35:31] when, you know, when Jesus was born. Did I go through this last week? Okay, so anyway, when Jesus... Well, anyway, so we cooking this pigeon because, you know, when Jesus was born, they gave pigeons a sacrifice to the
+
+[35:42] priests, you know, et cetera. So we cook pigeon and we boiled the pigeon in chicken stock
+
+[35:47] first. And, uh, which was typical for what they would have done. We didn't boil it. We did it about 140 degrees or so just to kind of like start the cookoff in the chicken stock. And, uh, we then rubbed it with cumin and fennel, which were 2 spices they would have had. We koshered it beforehand, so it was nice and salty. We did the official koshering technique, which is soak it in water, like rub salt all over it, let it sit for an
+
+[36:08] hour, and then rinse it 3 times and pat it dry, poach it off for a little bit, and then we stuck it in the
+
+[36:13] tandor. I put a coat hanger through it and put it down in the tandor and spun it. First, I caught the string on fire and burnt my hand getting the thing out, but you know, whatever, you know, we can't have everything. So, but when we did it, that pigeon was straight up delicious.
+
+[36:25] So if you make yourself a flower pot tandor, uh,
+
+[36:29] with, you know, a garbage can, sand. If you can get vermic, you like get it, and cook yourself some pigeon in your flower pot tando, because that was straight up good, right? Also, I was really worried because, you know, I spoke to a chef a long time ago about tandors and he was always laughing that his favorite part of a new cook coming into the kitchen was putting him on tandor station and watching the flesh peel off the back of his hands from footing his hand into the hot tandor all the time because it's hot as the devil.
+
+[36:52] you have to put your hand in and literally slap the bread onto the side of the unit.
+
+[36:56] And so I was a little more than a little bit nervous that this was going to totally fry me out. So, but it wasn't not so bad. I mean, I burnt the hair off my arm, right? But it wasn't such a big deal. I didn't, I didn't run around screaming too much, right? So go ahead and build yourself a flower pot tender. What else do we make? The bread was really good that we made that. We made like an old school flatbread with like really crappily ground wheat and also with barley, but the wheat was a lot better, right? Yes. Yeah. And did we do anything else? was fun? Lizotto. No, we didn't do lentils. Like, Nastasia has risotto on our mind. She must want risotto for dinner because she's just thinking risotto, risotto, risotto. You made risotto. That dude, Bourdain is a tall dude, too, by the way. Did you know how tall that sucker was? Probably, like, 64? I don't know, he was a huge man. Tall. Also drops a lot of F-bombs while he's shooting. Did they cut that out in the show or no? I don't think so. Anyway. So look for that to air on December the 15th or something like that. Something like that. All right. So what I'm doing today. So when I went to Columbia, I don't know if I mentioned this, when I went to Columbia, I wasn't able to get any money. Uh, so, I mentioned, so, Chris Costow, the, you know, 3 star Michelin chef, uh, you know, out in Napa, gave me 150 bucks
+
+[38:14] uh, in Colombian cash money so that I wouldn't die, basically.
+
+[38:19] Um, and we had a discussion and he said that he is very interested in the flavors of tomato plant,
+
+[38:26] right? So I, you know, I said, well, I've done that before. You know, I took a I've roto vapped. And also, you know, who used to be interested in that years ago is David Kinch out at Manresa also in California. It must be something about Californians and tomato plants. Even though we straight up, I'm sorry, California, we straight up have the best tomatoes I have ever had in my life. Crap on anyone else's tomatoes over the best tomatoes I've ever had are from New Jersey. Uh, Aunt Ruby's German greens and the German stripes from uh, Stokes Farms
+
+[38:59] in in New Jersey. And I can say that they don't give me a break on anything. They don't give me anything, but these are, and in fact, I can't get them anymore, hardly because New Yorker or New York magazine or New Yorker, one of those wrote them up like 2 years ago, and now they're as the best
+
+[39:12] tomato, and they sell out now. So I have a tough time getting them. Hurricane came through here, and it didn't do any damage to New York City, but it did a lot of damage to parts of Jersey and up in
+
+[39:22] Vermont, and all of their tomato plants roots were underwater, and so a lot of the tomatoes kind of blew up and exploded. So the season is over early this year. Anyway, that's an aside, a sat aside. I had the last of the great Aunt Rubies, I am told, on Saturday. They were delicious. Anyway. And by the way, Aunt Ruby, who came up with this, the heirloom state, you know her last name? Tuesday. Arnold. Aunt Ruby Arnold, no relation. I wish it was. I wish she was my relative. Anyway, she died in like 1997. So, uh, Tomato Plan vodka. I made it a bunch of years ago in a rotary evaporator, and so I'm going to make it again today. going to make a whole bunch of, but I'm going to do it legally. For the 1st time, I'm going to do a legal roto app of
+
+[40:02] tomato plan vodka, I'm going to ship it off to Chris Costa as a thank you for giving us, giving me the ability to not be dead in
+
+[40:10] Colombia. Yes? Yeah. Anyway, I'm going back. did you ever taste that tomato plant vodka? I had still had some left. And it's weird. It's green. It tastes so green, so bizarre. I like it a lot. I mean, but you could never make a mixed drink with it. Um, because if you made a mixed drink with it, people are like, what the hell is that flavor? And you say tomato plant vodka? Um, When am I going back to Columbia? you have any idea? Yeah, second, third, and fourth. Soon. Anyway, I love Columbia. I talked enough about Columbia, but I love it there. I actually have 2 Colombian friends visit me right after this program. What is it? Yeah. So, and the last thing I'm going to talk about before I go is the Harvard. because we didn't talk about it or we did. So I'm going back to Harvard sometime in November to do a public lecture on
+
+[40:57] drinks. I hope to have some sort of like whiz bang craziness. I'm also doing a lecture at the beverage alcohol resource program, David Wondridge's thing, which is when next week? Yeah. So if I don't know if there's still slots available for that, but it's kind of the greatest bar program ever, ever made. It's Dave Wondridge, Dale DeGroff, Steve Olsen, Paul Packle. I'm sure I'm missing. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other things, but it's kind of the craziest bar program in the world because you have some of the biggest spirit nuts on the planet going out and bringing like personal bottles of weird crap and you spend, I believe, the morning tasting every
+
+[41:33] damned, uh, every damned liquor you can so you can identify it later and then there's lectures on theory. There's lectures. So I'm going to go give a lecture probably on clarification, rotary evaporation, and my general thoughts about high-tech stuff next week. Uh, and then a drinks lecture, a lecture in um, November. But at the Harvard, it's kind of a, we didn't do it last year, but it's kind of a strange course, right? I mean, Nastasia, you win. What do you think? I mean, it's kind of an it's an interesting idea. They get a whole bunch of chefs and they do a demo and then they try and turn it into a class about science,
+
+[42:07] right? But it's kind of like, it's physics for poets is basically what it is, right? Taught through the lens of cooking, right? Now, most of the chefs who go, last week was one Roka. I't know who's going to be this week. You know, Juan Roko, if you don't know him, is kind of like super duper badass mofo, badass, you know, guy with low temperature cooking and also with rotary
+
+[42:27] evaporation. So, you know, very big influence on me. Very big influence, I think, on all the chefs kind of of, you know, Wiley's generation, my generation, in terms of sous vide and low temperature and whatnot. They're getting like a whole bunch of people going up, but it's kind of weird to have to beat those chefs into kind of a science
+
+[42:43] mold, right? Kind of interesting problem. Me, because I'm a schmuck, Instead, I was I was just like, I'll just do some demos around the science because, you know, whatever. But do you think that went all right in my lecture? It was all right. on the web, so you can see. I listened to it. I said, um a lot. Apparently, I don't know, Nastasia, you said I don't say I'm too much on the radio, but I
+
+[43:01] said, um, every other word when I was at when I was at Harvard. But let me tell you something. They have a vacuum pump at Harvard. One of the demos we did at Harvard was a
+
+[43:10] demo Johnny had told me about that he saw at Nathan Mirvold's joint with Chris Young. You take liquid nitrogen. You put liquid nitrogen into a vacuum machine and a regular commercial vacuum machine will work. And you suck a vacuum on it, and as you suck a vacuum on it, the temperature starts dropping because you're evaporatively cooling. Think about it. As you're boiling off liquid nitrogen, you're evaporatively cooling it. So when you put a vacuum on it, you boil it off so quickly that the temperature drops about
+
+[43:33] two, 3 degrees, and that's enough to turn liquid nitrogen from a liquid to a solid.
+
+[43:39] Now, Harvard's vacuum machine is so freaking awesome that we needed to literally bleed air out of it because it was sucking
+
+[43:47] too hard of a vacuum too fast and just exploded into this solid bunch of nitrogen foam. That was kind of the most fun thing I did, right? That was, I mean, in my feeling, that was pretty badass. And that brings me to my last question, also from James, in Australia on vacuum equipment. I've just managed, James, says, to get a large chamber sealer, a vacuum sealer cheap on eBay. Well, congratulations to you. I've had a look at modernist cuisine and online, but all the information out
+
+[44:14] there is sort of stick it in the bag and vac it. What are my tips on maintenance, bag size to food ratio? How to tell when you have crazy overvacuumed your food and any other ideas on what to use it for apart from packaging for sous vide and stuffing alcohol into fruit? Well, you can freeze liquid nitrogen into a solid, but that's pretty useless because as soon as you let the air back in, the thing melts and it goes back to being liquid again. Here's the maintenance. Maintenance is fairly easy on a vacuum machine. You need to do 2 things regularly. You need to replace the Teflon tape over the seal bar. You need to do that as soon as it starts burning through. Otherwise, your bags are going to be sealed improperly. You just have to buy the tape, you can buy it from a 2nd from a 3rd party, like McMaster Carr. I don't know what they call it in Australia, but I'm sure you have an industrial supply place that sells it, Teflon
+
+[44:56] tape, or, you know, not the stuff for plumbing. It's adhesive heatproof Teflon tape, or just get it directly from the vacuum manufacturer from the thing, but that's something to do regularly. But the most important thing. The heart and soul, the literally the heart of the vacuum machine is the vacuum pump. And the vacuum pump needs one thing to work properly and that's clean oil. When you vacuum something, as you vacuum it, liquid is evaporating off of your
+
+[45:21] product, and it's contaminating your oil with water, and it's reducing the level of vacuum you can get
+
+[45:27] to, and also making it take longer and longer for you to get down to that vacuum. So the key is to keep the pump clean. And the way to keep the pump clean is to run it till it gets hot. Most commercial vacuum machines have a have a pump in it made by a company called Bush out of Germany and they're designed to run hot. So what you do is you leave the lid open and you run it for minutes until it gets really hot with air streaming through it, and it's going to boil all the liquid out and keep your pump oil nice and clear. If you do that regularly, you shouldn't have to change your pump oil more than about, depends on how heavy your usage is, but every 6 months to a year, you should be able to keep it before you have to change it. Okay? That's the prime thing in maintenance. Obviously, keep the unit clean. Your unit might have an acrylic lid, so don't wash the lid with alcohol or
+
+[46:07] it could get hazy depending on the unit you have, but that's basically it. Every morning, uh, or whenever, whenever you see it, it's not working
+
+[46:15] right. I would rip the, there usually there's a metal plate for some unknown reason, covering up the window on the pump, showing you what the condition of the oil is. And the 1st thing I do when I get a vacuum machine is rip that plate off so that I can see the condition of the oil at all
+
+[46:27] times. And I guarantee you if it's been used, it's going to look like salad dressing. So putting, you know, put new oil in, obviously, because you don't know what happened before, and then clean your pump oil out. That's the main thing. Also, backsize the food ratio is important, but people don't think about it. If you're sucking a complete vacuum on something, the bag size isn't very important. If you use a bag that's too small. What happens is you're going to get smashed the bag around the corners of your food and you're going to get crazy portions that look like pillows. They look insane and nobody thinks those are appetizing. you see little bag marks in your food, right? But assuming you have enough liquid, like oil or whatever, in the bag, such that, you know, the bag can seal around the liquid and not deform your product, right, then having a bag that's, you know, much bigger, if you're sucking a full
+
+[47:10] vacuum, doesn't make that much of a difference. But, 2 things. You don't want a big bag because a big bag takes up extra room in your circulator, right? You're spending extra money on the plastic, although that's not the primary thing, but the main thing is a lot of times we're going to suck an incomplete vacuum on our product. And then the back size does matter because if you have kind of a loose seal and a big bag, it gets really loose,
+
+[47:33] right? So you want to try and have the bag be about, you know, just extend enough around your food to allow it to close around your
+
+[47:41] sauce without or oil or whatever without it crunching your food. That said, it's not hyper hypercritical. But the reason you're going to want to not suck a complete vacuum on stuff is that the vacuum, the vacuum level that you use radically affects the texture of certain
+
+[47:56] products. For instance, chicken. If you uh, you know, if you vacuum chicken really hard, it tastes like canned chicken after you cook it.
+
+[48:03] If you vacuum fish really hard, it ruins the texture, makes it kind of stringy. And you can look on cookingissues.com and look for, you look under, I think it's called boring but useful technical post on vacuum machine or something like that. You can look it up and you can see our test that we ran on that. And, um, you know, Chris and uh, and Nathan had a theory on that in modernist cuisine about why that's the case. They think it has something to do with boiling. I kind of I disagree with that. I'd love to have that debate with them, but I kind of disagree with it. But that said, you know, if you overcompress something for storage, it's usually not a big deal. It's when you cook something under a high vacuum. That's my feeling is that you're going to have a problem with it. Anyway, as for other ideas, you're going to have to wait for our next installation, which I
+
+[48:48] promise I will start working on. And I'll tell you what, Nastasia's been beating on me to do some of these CV'd primers. And I have more incentive. I'll give you a little hint because I know the French Culinary Institute does not listen to our webcast. I believe the cooking issues blog is going to be switched to my personal ownership
+
+[49:03] soon with, you know, they'll still have, they'll still be the French culinary tech and stuff blog. But I believe what happened is, I wrote a post a couple
+
+[49:12] weeks back, right before I went to Columbia on how to mess with pressure cookers, and their lawyer and their lawyers freaked out, right? Mustachi, true or false? Should I be talking about this? Their lawyers freaked out. And so I think they think it might be easier for it to just be my personal blog. called the French culinary tech and stuff blog. So anyway, that's that and that's cooking issues.
+
+[49:39] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[50:04] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[50:20] The following messages from Bubbies. Bubby's Main Street is thrilled to announce a fall program of special dinners celebrating efforts to renovate American agriculture and the American menu. Each event will feature a conversation with persons who are deeply involved in a significant aspect of this
+
+[50:37] project, followed by a meal that illustrates materially and pleasurably the themes under discussion. From our perspective at Bubbies, we observe and participate in three parallel movements that are gaining momentum in the New York region and around the country. New farmers supplying green markets and alternative food networks with produce and animals raised without relying on an arsenal of chemicals or industrial methods, new artisans reinventing
+
+[51:00] food crafts, and a fresh appreciation of authentic American cooking from all regions and communities.
+
+[51:05] For more information about these events, visit bubbies.com. That's b-u-b-y-s.com or contact Danny Finkel directly at 646-338-0422.
+
+[51:17] The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. 14 family farms and over 50 restaurants have committed to participation in no goat left
+
+[51:29] behind, a new program developed by Heritage Foods USA, a meat distribution company dedicated to preserving endangered breeds. Without an end market, the majority of male dairy goats are sold into the commodity market or killed at birth. Dairy farmers are always struggling with feed prices, milk prices, and weather. Goats usually have twins or triplets, and for every female who will become a milker, there's a male buckling who will become a financial drain. It makes no sense that these males are sold into the commodity market or put to death when the United States imports almost 50% of its annual goat supply.
+
+[52:00] Home consumers interested in participating can order goats through heritagefoodsusa.com. They will receive goats via FedEx, and home delivery is available for New York City customers. In addition to the goat, these packages will also include recipes and a DVD featuring interviews with the farmers, processors, and
+
+[52:17] chefs demonstrating how to breakdown and cocoat. Again, for more information on no goat left behind, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com or call Aaron Fairbanks at 718-389-0985.
+
+[52:37] The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market, open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday and 10 to 6 on Sundays. The Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare approved and certified humane raising standards.
+
+[52:55] Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the heritage meat
+
+[53:03] shop at the Essex Street Market.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:33] Brooklyn. Here today in the studio, of course, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, as always. Hello, Nastasia. Hi. She's doing something or other on the computer. I don't know. Probably having to do with the event we're doing for 300 people tonight. Is that true or false? No for Thursday. For Thursdays, Museum of Food and Drink event, which I believe is sold out, but if you know someone, you can get tickets.
+
+[0:52] I.e. if you beg and plead, you can get tickets. Although we are theoretically sold out, is that true or false? Yeah, that's true. It's true. So I shouldn't even talk about it. if they're going to donate a lot of money, we'll take people. I see that we're at that point now, huh? What's a lot? over a thousand. Oh, Jesus. Oh my god. Anyway, uh, you have to email Nastasia for that kind of uh, for that kind of information, you know, go on the blog, whatnot. Anyway, calling all of your questions, cooking or uncooking related, I guess, or technical or
+
+[1:20] not too. 718497 You just wrote this wrong. She's trying to fool me. I happen to know that the last the last 4 starts with two. Yeah. So you kind of know the phone number. He pretends. I know, I kind of know it. I know when it's wrong. Look, it's like spelling. And when I see it, I know that because isn't spelled that way, but just spelling it out isn't the same.
+
+[1:41] You know what I mean? Call in all your questions, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Anyway, today's show is brought to you by, uh, again, Chris Anderson from the Monest Pantry. Good news for all of you looking to get ingredients people out there. He was able to get his hands on some TechnX SPL. The miracle enzyme, which we use for French fries, recipe on the blog, www.cookingissues.com. Enzymatic peeling of fruits to get really amazing peels with no albedo. That's the white crap, or to do auto supreming. We also use it for clarification. self-clarify things like apple juice, but you need a center for you to do stuff like strawberry puree. Although I have way around that. I haven't posted about this yet, although I will because I found out that I'm still way behind on my contractually obliged posts per
+
+[2:28] week and they're trying to ship me off to do a demo for the school and they won't pay my obligatory day rate because they say I'm behind. So I'm going to have to now go ahead and do all those things so that I can then stuff it in the appropriate people's faces.
+
+[2:41] Anyway, true or false? Yes. True? Anyway, they're listening. Ah yeah, come on, please. Anyway, I'm going to read the thing straight up, right? So you get, today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry, supplying
+
+[2:52] monitors ingredients for the home cook. Whether you were looking for hydrocoloids, PH modifiers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping,
+
+[3:04] modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fan of cooking issues in order during today's show, we'll get 08s of transportaminates again, they're running. All right. No, no, they're running the Pecanex. Yeah, but what's the number on the, I have the, I'll look it up on my thing. But apparently they're still running the Transgutaminate special. So fans of the show call, what? Well, Jack just handed me the thing. Well, see whether you get it. See whether you get it. Try to get some free some free crap. Try to get transglutaminates for free. They said CI 53. in the promo code CI 55. Yeah, but CI 53 is the Miklu. You'll get packed All right, listen. Listen, you want a domestic shipping. It's like a drug dealer. They give you the free 1st sample? No, this is just free to estimate. Not shipping on Pectonex. Oh, free domestic shipping on package. For those people that call in during today's show, you will
+
+[3:48] get, if you enter CI55. I'm sure he'll have it maybe for a whole week. I don't know. Uh, if you enter it, you will get free domestic shipping on Pectanex SPL, the ultra enzyme. Anyway. Oh, I like that. I like the reverb on that. That was good, Jack. Nice. Uh, Anyway, uh, oh, and it says maybe you could talk briefly about how you use
+
+[4:05] Pectonex for the benefit of the audience, but it looks like I already did that. Anyway, I'm very happy if someone is finally carrying this thing and that, you know, who's a real person that ships stuff out and it's not us just shipping the stuff out of the school because that was a pain in the butt.
+
+[4:18] You hated that. A lot, lot. Anyway. Okay. First question comes in from longtime questionnaire, Colin. First a response to what we said, because last week he had suggested maybe you could use an ultrasonic homogenizer, which is quite a violent tool as a toothbrush.
+
+[4:37] Uh, and he says, well, listen, I know that you're not supposed to
+
+[4:41] stick your teeth on it and rattle your brains into little bits. I don't have his actual comment here, copy, but he still thinks maybe it would be fun. I say again, do not attempt. Do not attempt, Colin. But for his other question. Going back to the museum, a food and drink fundraiser that we had a back in, what that was that, May? March. March. Back in March. Wiley did a dish. I gave Wiley Caveman food. Every chef had a theme that they had to do historical or fun, like, you know, Wiley had
+
+[5:10] Caveman and Nils had, what do he have, food as, no, he had diet, fad diets. Anyway, so for caveman food. Wiley did an amazing looking dish that looked like it was just a split bone. It was done with high-tech stuff, actually, but it looked like twigs and branches and bones, looked very
+
+[5:26] caveman. It was awesome. And one of the things he did, that looked like little twigs, was in nochi mushrooms that he had dried, and turning these twigs. That's actually the only thing I got to taste off that dish and it was good. I'm sure Nastasia had a whole one. had no food that day. Even you had no food nostalgia. Now, just to let you know how hard Nastasia was working, Nastasia would stab a coworker in the ear and let every piece of food you were cooking burn,
+
+[5:47] uh, rather than give up the attempt, the possibility of taking any morsel of food, even your
+
+[5:52] mise en place that you need for the dish. So it just goes to show how dedicated she is to the museum that she did not try that dish. Anyway, um, I, I, like I said, I had just the Inoki mushrooms and they were good. So Colin writes in, when he made the twigs for his caveman dish, did he use fresh
+
+[6:09] enochi, then season a dehydrate, then or did he use a nochi, bought pre-dried? Come on, Colins Wiley. Of course, he bought fresh annochi, seasoned them and dried them. Come on. Come on. They were fresh. which is what I recommend you do. And this other question is, uh, what other than marketing and gold dust makes Quantros verification kit different? Any idea what their formula was? Okay, for those of you that don't know, spherification is turning fluids into tiny balls made popular by
+
+[6:35] Faran Adria. It was an industrial thing to make fake blueberries, an X, Y, and Z for a long time, typically uses sodium alginate, which is a gel that is, you know, has a lot of good properties from
+
+[6:45] a structural point of view and a lot of bad properties from a taste point of view because it's a taste thief. Although I do like the balls when they're properly made, but it's hard. Anyway, so Quantro thought they were going to get into what some people call molecular mixology, a
+
+[6:59] term I detest and abhor. It sounds gross and I think it's dumb. And they made a kit there will teach basically anyone, any regular bar person to make little balls out of
+
+[7:12] Quantro and then add Quantro balls to dishes. And I believe they mix some gold dust in to make shimmery, quantro, shiny, tiny balls. I think that's what it was, shiny, tiny balls. I'm not sure what they added to the kid, whether it was a mag stir unit or something like that. But I believe that they were just using. I hope they were using calcium glucinate and not calcium lactate. I mean, calcium chloride as their salt, because it's basically alginate plus calcium equals, you know, alginate plus calcium equals
+
+[7:39] a gel. So you make an al, you make an alternate mixture with your quantro, you drip, dip it into the calcium and boom, she sets. Pretty sure that's what they were doing. I don't think they were doing reverse verification because it's more difficult and they were trying to train people to do it who had no training with hydrocoloids. So I believe that it is just marketing gold dust, alginate, and calcium. Hopefully, calcium lactate glucinate because it's the least flavorless of the thing. And I believe a scale. You get a scale, so you can measure this stuff out. You ever see him do that, Nastasia? No. I've never had a Quantro, tiny ball cocktail, but, you know, I'm willing to try one. Although I have my doubts about the tiny ball phenomenon in general. What about you? You like tiny balls? Oh, fresh balls came. Fresh what? Fresh balls came. Fresh. Oh, Nastasia ordered for her boyfriend. The product fresh balls, which cooks across the world, apparently tell me, is much, much better than putting like cornstarch or whatever else you're going to put into your pants to keep yourself fresh during service.
+
+[8:39] Nastasia looks horrified. Well, Nastasia brought it up. I mean, I have to say, I was not going to mention this at all. A tiny balls is an alternate food product that is absolutely wholesome
+
+[8:51] and family oriented. I do not like the alternate balls at all. All right, then. And, you know, I don't want anyone writing or calling in, saying that I suddenly took the show to a bad place when I believe it was
+
+[9:02] Nastasia who brought it up, and then, you know, you're not allowed to bring up an inside thing to our viewers without me explaining what's going
+
+[9:08] on. It's unfair to the listeners. Moving on. Alvin writes in about centrifuges. Okay, because I just did a post on centrifuges. Okay, now I want a centrifuge. Actually, I wanted one before ever since I had corn butter at Mirvold's lab in Bellevue, Washington. That would be nature Mirvold of Monitor's pantry. What size should I buy? Where to look? Perhaps eBay. I think you mentioned once on the radio show about finding one super cheap because of a misspelled auction. one of my favorite things of all time. I got a centrifuge for almost nothing because they spelled it like, what did they spell it, like central centra feuge or something? Something wrong. I forget. Centrifuge, something crazy. Finding one super cheap because of a misspelled auction. The approximate cost, I got it for under 100 bucks, plus shipping was sick. Awesome. Thing works great, by the way. Don't be, you know, not to make you jealous or anything, works great. Please answer on the radio show because I listen to the podcast religiously. By the way, will you guys be at the Star Chefs ICC,
+
+[10:04] which is the International Chefs Congress, not to be confused with the renaming of the French
+
+[10:09] Culinaries Building, the International Culinary Center, although it is confusing, right? Confusing. Do you find it confusing? Anyway, anyway. Well, Alvin, we will not be there as participants this year, we don't have to work
+
+[10:22] it. We just get to show up. Boom! Every year. I've never seen any of the demos because we're working the whole time, right, Nastasia? Anyway, this time, I'll be hanging out and getting liquored up at the whoever the wine and beer sponsors are, I'll be going to the seminars given by my bartender friends and watching
+
+[10:42] chef's demo and learning stuff, like a normal human instead of running around like a chicken with my head cut off, right?
+
+[10:48] Right. Should be fun. Anyway, okay, now to his question. Okay, you want a 4 or sometimes three. You want a 3 to 4 liter benchtop centrifuge. If you can find one, refrigeration is not necessary, but refrigeration is helpful. If you're only going to run one or 2 batches, it doesn't matter, but when you're running a thing all the time,
+
+[11:09] uh, and you don't have time necessarily really chill your products down, they can heat up somewhat
+
+[11:13] uh, somewhat drastically in uh, in a centrifuge because of all the friction of the thing spinning around. You want to make sure, uh, what you do is you look up whatever rotor you're using and you, uh, you can look it up on the internet. There's all sorts of calculators that help you figure out how many times the force of gravity,
+
+[11:30] any particular rotor is generating at a particular number of revolutions per
+
+[11:34] minute, and you can look it up. You want to get about 4000 G's to be able to get the best benefit out of it, including all the stuff you do with enzymes and things like that.
+
+[11:42] You're going to want to get yourself some pecton XSPL, of course, so that you can just clarify everything like a Mamma Gemma. Now, the reason I recommend 4 liters is because a 4 liter, you're really spinning about 3 liters at a time. And I find that it really is a convenient size because if you have less product, you can spend 2 buckets instead of one, we sometimes even spun one bucket of product and then the other bucket just had like sugar in it as a weight to keep it weighted down. And it's just a really good size. We can put a lot of product through it. It's, you know, pretty economical to time-wise to run. So I really, really like it. You could maybe get a 3 liter fuse. Um, I didn't enjoy using my one that only had uh, 500 by six. It's like a liter and a half or something like that. What is 500 by 6? That's 3 liters, but it didn't seem like it did 3 liters in those little bottles. Maybe it was 250 by five. Anyway, it was like a liter and a half fuge. And I didn't really like it. I had to spin it so many times to get enough product to work. You know what I mean? And plus you need to have a little bit of air at the top anyway. so you end up losing. I would get a 3 to 4 liter benchtops interfuge. If you, apparently, someone told me at the class I taught last weekend that
+
+[12:51] the price has gone up substantially on eBay since we've been screaming loud and long, everyone needs to buy one. Um, and so I don't know whether my particular model, the Xuan, uh, you know, C, whatever it is, C, C 12, C 14, is
+
+[13:04] uh, still a good deal, but you should be able to get one for about a 1000 bucks in good working order,
+
+[13:09] 1200 bucks in good working order. I never paid more than 200 for mine, but I'm willing to wait around and wait for something broken and fix it. Brand spanking new. There 8 grand. Uh, and so that should give you a, uh, that should give you an idea. Is that good answer, Stas? Yes. All right. Now, let's go to our 1st commercial break. And while we're doing that, pick up your phones and download your questions. 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[13:38] We're having a party. Dancing to the music. Played by the DJ. On the radio. The coats are in the ice spots. Hot bones, or the table. Me and my baby. We're out here on the floor. So, just an easy day. Keep falls, like a plane. Cause I'm a habit, such a good time. Dancing with my baby. Just to give you an idea what kind of person nostache is. She wanted to cut the song off before you said dancing with my baby. No soul. No soul on that lady, right? Right, guys? Yeah, we're getting some nods from the room over there. Then don't come in and ask if we're ready, Jack. Well, he knows not to cut it off before he says dancing with my baby. Come on. Please. Come on. anyway. And you know what's funny? Nastasia used to work for MTV and like loves bands. loves going to see bands, kind of, doesn't like to be in the audience, likes to be side stage, and yet
+
+[14:58] she, like, an actual song comes on. Couldn't care less. Anyway. It's not true when it comes to Hall and Oates. No, it's true. Hall and Oates, if you had cut if you had cut off man eater at a bad time, she would like, all of us would be dead because that's her theme song. Oh, wow. Boom. All right. So, Johnny writes in with lots of questions. I really enjoyed the discussion last week about which blender brand to purchase and day's promotion of induction cooktops. Do you guys have an opinion about brands for induction burners? I own a couple of cook techs. have been happy with them, but I'm wondering if there are others that I should look into? Unfortunately, Johnny, I don't have enough experience. Cook Tech. I know a lot of people that use cook techs, they're out of Illinois. I believe, you know, they're a US brand, and so most people building them in. I haven't heard a lot of horror stories about cooked text versus other induction units in a commercial environment, which I'm assuming you're in a commercial environment because most people who use cooked texts are in commercial environments. The main problem with inductions early on is everyone wanted the holy grail, which is induction units over an oven. Induction range over an oven. And no one, I don't care whether it was French companies or cook tech or whomever. No one made induction units that that wouldn't burn out when they were put over an oven because they just, you know,
+
+[16:13] the electronics weren't cooled effectively enough and they would always just burn out. And that was what happened. That was the last time I checked into that was maybe 4 or 5 years ago. So I'm hoping that they've solved that problem, although I don't know if they have or not. The other problem I've seen with induction units, Cooktop, CookTech, and otherwise is just shattering of people like putting a heavy pot on something in a commercial
+
+[16:34] environment or dropping a, you know, dropping a pan down on it and boom, they shatter. And so those are the 2 things that I know had always been the Achilles heel, not of
+
+[16:44] Cooktex in particular, but of all of these units. So I'm hoping that some of those problems will change. I think when you're looking into, when you're looking into induction units, one of the interesting things is you can configure them kind of however you want, and so you can buy dual units that are either side by side or front
+
+[17:00] back. Uh, I thought the front back units were pretty cool because you could treat, you could stack them like a regular range, which is awesome and you could just make any number of burners you want, but the guys at
+
+[17:10] Sam who have one have a problem because they won't accept a big stock pot. So just figure out what you want. And I think Cook Tech is a fine brand to go with. I'm going to get back to some of Johnny's questions in a minute because we have a caller. caller you are on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Garrett from New York. I have a question about tinctures. Um, and basically I was wondering if the rapid and infusion technique that you talk about on the blog, is there a way
+
+[17:35] to uh, do tinctures with that? So, you know, you don't have to wait 6 weeks for his 7 tincture or whatever. Okay, well, so here's my feeling on that. So, um, the rate of infusion, what kind of proof of alcohol are you using very, very, very high? Well, since I'm in New York, they can't get grain alcohol, but I guess the highest thing, I know I can get is like solely 100 or, you know, something like that. You can do 151 is the highest proof you can get here and they sell a, I sell one that was slightly higher that was illegal, but you can get 151 here.
+
+[18:06] Okay. You can't get, you can't get higher than 151. So, but you can go to New Jersey or Connecticut and get it and get the everclear regular Everclear. It tastes bad, regular, ever clear. You could try to source some like lab or perfume grade. And if you convince someone that you're a business, you can get lab grade 200 proof, which is sweet. I don't get 200. Get the 195 USP lab grade. It's really pure. It's awesome stuff. And if you find it on sale, it's not that expensive. Okay. But back to your question. Um, I think that the the flavors you get are not going to be exactly the same. If you want a, if you want it to taste like an old school tincture, then you're probably gonna need to make an old school tincture. Will you accelerate the infusion by doing rapid infusion? Yes, 100%. But the exact ratios of uh, you know, different compounds that are extracted under the different uh, kind of time and pressure regimes might not be exactly identical. Maybe it's going to be better. Maybe it's better. Maybe it's worse, maybe it's just different. I think you have to have tested. So if you've made a particular tincture before, right? You can make one using the rapid infusion technique and and I think have a good result, but it might be different. Another thing is, is that when I have rapid, right? I'm typically doing rapid stuff in the one to 5 minute range. Now, there's been people who have tested, uh, trying to do more traditional tasting like several week tinctures by keeping the stuff under pressure on the order of 8 hours or overnight or one day and then venting the
+
+[19:44] vessel. And I think people have had some good luck doing that, and that might taste closer to a traditional
+
+[19:50] tincture because you're basically the amount of time it would take the liquor to percolate through and get an intimate contact and kind of displace the air that's inside of some of the products that you're
+
+[20:01] steeping would be, uh, you know, basically you get through that part of it right away. And then it's just, uh, it's just the, you know, the the, the marrying once it's together and then, you know, shooting it out that you
+
+[20:12] get. So that might be another way to do it if you want to give that a shot. Yeah I will. Thank you, Dave. Hey, no problem. Thanks for calling in. I love questions on infusions and tinctures, right, Stas? Yeah. Now let's see if I can get my iPad. Oh, I have another caller? Caller, you were on the air. Hi, uh, hi, Dave. I have a question. If I, so a lot of recipes call for chicken or vegetable broth,
+
+[20:36] um, and if I don't have any in my apartment and I can't really like run out and get any, what can I do?
+
+[20:41] Like, what can I use instead of that? Huh. But you want it to taste like that? Well, I mean, I guess so. I guess it's not so much, like if I'm making, like, a barley or something, and I know that it might be too bland without the chicken or vegetable
+
+[20:55] broth. Yeah. I mean, and you just can't keep it in stock because you forget. Right. So it's like, it's always one thing that you have in your kitchen and you forget and you forget to buy it until you don't have it. Yeah, okay. Now, listen, don't, don't tell anyone who's not listening to this, but there, like, there's whole groups of people who you otherwise respect in
+
+[21:15] Europe, who keep, uh, who use on a regular basis, like Brodo, broth, bullion
+
+[21:20] cubes. And there are higher quality ones than the ones that we normally get in the US, even made by the companies that make the same ones in the
+
+[21:29] US because it's more of a respected product in certain places we show that shall remain
+
+[21:35] nameless Italy. And so in other countries, like these broth cubes, Brodo, they call them, right? Cubes, what do they call them? Yeah. They you know, they are a, they are considered a valid ingredient. So what I would do is, is if your buddies are going to bother you about it, hide it in the back of your pantry. If not, say like, you know, who shove that stick up your butt? This is a valid ingredient, stop being so provincial and look at the world. Uh, and then uh, and then what you do is you just have that there. Use your normal stock when you have it and then have one of those sitting around just in case all hell breaks loose and you don't have it, right? Okay, that sounds great. But you're going to have to remember, you're going to have to change the amount of salt that you have in your recipe. So you're going to want to make sure that there's no pre-salting going on. Okay, with the with the buoyon cube. Yeah, and the other thing I would recommend. And this is another good one is stock freezes almost indefinitely. So what I tend to do when I'm doing a bunch of, do you have a pressure cooker? don't. Okay, well, buy a pressure cooker. Anyway. Step one. Yes. After you buy a pressure cooker, even if you don't. Like whenever you're getting chickens, I tend to buy whole chickens and then I break them down. And then I just, uh, I throw the, uh, I throw all of the bones
+
+[22:41] and and, you know, you know, backs and necks and stuff into, uh, into zips and throw them in the freezer. And then after I've accumulated, you know, like 4 or 4 chickens worth. I just, I throw the bones in the in the pressure cooker and just make a quick white stock. Don't even buy. I mean, like it's better if you roast everything, but don't even bother. Just throw it in with some veg, clamp it, and like 20 minutes later, you know, you have
+
+[23:03] passable stock, you can freeze into cubes, and then you just have, so you have 3 layers now. You have some stuff frozen and then you freeze them in ice cube trays and then put them in zips. And then you just throw individual cubes of frozen in and they melt relatively quickly.
+
+[23:16] You don't want to freeze big cork containers of it because then you have to thaw a whole core container out. Yeah. Yeah. So now you have 3 layers that are going to protect you. Yeah, wow. that was really great. Thanks so much. I never thought about the ice cube idea. That's really cool, though. Oh, well, I forget who I stole that from back in the, probably from Jacques Pepin or Julia Child, someone back in, you know, way back in the day. Oh, that's okay. I won't tell anybody else. Dave Arnold's idea. All right, cool. Thanks very much. Thanks for calling in. All right, so now back to Johnny's list of questions. He writes in, are there any details, is there any detailed information on changing the oil in a vacuum sealer. Commercial vacuum machines, another indication that Johnny's in a commercial kitchen. Commercial vacuum machines use vacuum oil. And that's how they seal, how they get a good seal on them. And it's one of the reasons why they're much better than a food saver, any sort of home
+
+[24:02] machines, because they have a much higher grade pump. That said, occasionally you have to change the oil. You don't have to actually change the oil very often. Oil gets contaminated with water every time you vacuum something with water in it. And you clean it typically just by heating the pump up, by running it, letting air go through it. It boils the water out and makes the oil clear again. But when the time comes to change it, you change it much like you change a car. What you just, you run the vacuum pump to get the, what's it called? The pump hot so that the oil is a little runnier, right? And then typically it depends on the machine, but you might have to undo a couple of bolts and move the pump out.
+
+[24:34] It's just attached by hoses and pipes and stuff. You move it out a little bit. There's typically a filling port at the top and one on the
+
+[24:41] side, and you drain it just like a car. If it had any grit in it. You should look at the oil and make sure it had no grit in it. If it had grit, seal it, pour some fresh oil in, run it vacuum oil. You can get it any industrial supply place, like McMaster.com or Grainger, or
+
+[24:55] uh, MSC direct, and run it with some fresh oil, drain that again, fill it with fresh oil. It doesn't take much. Usually these things take under a quart. Uh, under a court. Anyway. And that's it. It's fairly, fairly simple. Okay. Lastly, Johnny wants to know, uh, he was listening to the Nathan Mirvold episode that we had, uh,
+
+[25:16] and and particularly the discussion on confit, uh, where we sit, where Nathan basically said that you could steam a duck and it's the same thing as doing a confit.
+
+[25:24] And he's wondering how steaming could produce the same results as cooking in fat. He guessed that he just assumed that the fat had some beneficial effect on flavoring. Now, that's one of the more controversial things that mirror old, young, you know, and everyone, you know, Max were saying is that, um, confit, the fat actually doesn't make
+
+[25:42] any difference in that what it was is fat is a very gentle way to cook something in a liquid that's not a poaching liquid,
+
+[25:50] right? So when you when you poach something in water, you're you're basically you're, you know, fluids are exchanging, you're beginning more of a poached duck, uh, or a braised duck, then you are a confit
+
+[26:01] duck. But since the fat is considered a dry cooking medium and it doesn't really add moisture or
+
+[26:05] move moisture from the or water soluble stuff from the duck, it's a way of doing a
+
+[26:10] gentle, low temperature cooking back in the day before there was any sort of low temperature,
+
+[26:15] right? And if you roasted it in the oven without the fat. You get much more evaporation loss off of the duck, so you'd end up with a much, much drier duck. So it's a way to protect and cook the duck. But Mirville's thing is that basically it doesn't actually add any appreciable flavor to the duck at
+
+[26:33] all. I don't know. I've never run the side by side test. The only way to do this is to do one in a combi oven set on steam at 85 Celsius or something like that. Uh, and uh, do another one, uh, traditionally confit, or even in a bag sous vide confit, although you shouldn't do it in a bag because nothing can evaporate off in the
+
+[26:51] bag. So you should do it basically traditional. In fact, in the city. Here's what you should do. You should get one combi oven, run one in a pan, just steamed, and the other one in the fat, in the same cavity at the same time, and for the same exact length of time, same temperature regime, and see which one comes out better
+
+[27:08] if there's any difference. I'm assuming, knowing those guys, that they did that, and they saw that there wasn't any difference. So I'm going to have to say that the way that they were doing it, it didn't make much of a difference. What do you think does? All right. And apparently that wasn't the last question because he says, sorry for all the questions, but he has one last question. He does a lot of low temperature cooking, but his partner doesn't like it because she's worried about the harmful effects of cooking things in plastic. I showed her manufacturer's recommendations and that I cook things under the temperature that they recommend, but she points out that plastics have continued to have increased negative effects that get revealed after new introductions and after new, you know, whatever research
+
+[27:40] that comes out, and not enough is known to show it is safe. Is she worrying too much or is it a valid concern? It's very interesting because, I mean, the main problem is you either trust that it's safe or you don't trust that it's safe. You can't prove that something is safe other than saying,
+
+[27:58] you know, we've used X, Y, and Z for a long time. There doesn't appear to be any negative effect. Now, the fact of the matter is that a lot of these plastics haven't been around super duper long in food processing
+
+[28:09] things, and there's all sorts of problems that we're having these days. And some people point to things like plastics, but they also point to things like high fructose corns. They point to a lot of things. So it's very difficult to know, and it's almost impossible to prove that something doesn't have an effect, unless it's by centuries of use. You know, it's very, very, very difficult. I will say this. Um, I am fairly certain. that there are materials that leach from plastics into food when you're cooking. The question is, are those, and depends on the plastic, of course. The question is, are those things harmful? The reverse happens too. Things in your food leech into the plastics, which is why plastics sometimes take on smells and can't be cleaned properly.
+
+[28:51] It's mainly with fat soluble things because the fat, you know, fatty things tend to, um, you know, have a cross-talk with your plastics more often, which is why if you use a crappy plastic wrap that has a
+
+[29:01] smell and you wrap a fatty cheese in it, the outside of the cheese just tastes terrible. You've had to happen, right? It does. Disgusting, right? It's because the cheese is absorbing plasticky flavors. and vice versa. So you want to you want to be careful. Now, I would stay away from certain things that have, if you, for instance, if you're worried about BPA,
+
+[29:21] this phenol A, right? Polycarbonate, has, you know, has it, right? We don't wrap the food in polycarbonate, but I would use polycarbonate and drinking vessels all the time. So if you're worried about bisphenol A, you stay away from that. I would stay away from cooking with PVC because it has lots of stuff in it,
+
+[29:38] including, you know, plasticizers and thalates and all sorts of things. So, and but luckily, most plastic wraps aren't made of that. Most plastic wraps nowadays are made of polyethylene. And polyethylene usually doesn't have plasticizers, which are the things that are, you know, people most normally blame for a lot of the problems in
+
+[29:55] plastics these days, but they, you know, they do have things in them. Uh, you know, other things like ethyl vinyl acetate and polybutine that are added to make things cling better, they have solvents in them that are used to, uh, you know, during the process of making them, that
+
+[30:09] they're then flashed off. And are there the residual things like that? Sure, there are. I mean, have have there ever been shown to be any problem with them? Not that I know of, but it's very difficult. I feel confident using polyethylene at low temperatures. Um, but it's very, it's very hard to, It's very hard to say. Um, you know, the, a lot of the bags have, you know, the bags that we use. cooking bags have nylon, which is also relatively, you know, considered inert and, you know,
+
+[30:38] not harmful in any way. So, what do you think, Nastasia? What's the upshot of that? There is no upshot, right? Have I have I helped at all or I just... I don't know. Here's some things. You can also cook in glass jars and a pressure cooker. You can cook in fat directly without cooking in, um, without cooking
+
+[30:58] in in bags at all. Another thing, people have experimented making kind of foil pouches to cook things
+
+[31:04] in low temperature. Uh, you know, and I think there's going to be more, you know, more and more people are going to be interested, but you could just do low temperature directly in stock, directly in fat,
+
+[31:15] uh, in uh, glass, packed in glass uh, in uh, like I say, foil, although I haven't done that many experiments with it. So there's alternatives you can use if you're worried for certain dishes, if you're worried about the plastic. Yes? Yes. Okay. Chris, should we take one more break? Okay, one more commercial break. Call in all your questions too. 718-4972128. That 718-49728. Too much love drives a man of sling. You brought my will. But water free. Girl, let's graze a great ball to fire. I left that love cause I thought it was funny. You came along and moved me, honey. I've changed my mind. Because love was fine. Good to miss, good raises, great balls of fire. Give me baby. Oh, feel good. Oh, no, baby. Well, I will do love you like a lover should. Oh, you're fine. So kind. Got to tell this world I jumped. And let's remember that if it's Jerry Lewis, he's talking about a 15 year old. That's not, but I'm thinking, but all I can think of is Jerry Lewis singing that to like a 15 year old. Oh man. I had to take it to a bad place, right? But listen, I like his music, but don't you think about that when you see, like when you have a musician that, you know, has like a crazy, and look, I respect him greatly as musician, but when you think of someone who has a crazy foible like that, don't you have to think about it every time you hear the
+
+[32:47] music? Wasn't it his cousin too? Now you're just making fun of the South. I don't appreciate that. I'm pretty sure. I don't know. don't know. Anyway, Chris Fear, we're going to get in trouble on this one. Like, you know, but with the fresh balls in this, it's bad. been a bad day. Anyway, Chris Beer writes in about ISI Infusions. Hi, David Nastasia. I have a cocktail question. For you. I been doing a lot of ISI infusions and fat washing. and I have a question about rancidity. Even though I freeze and strain my fat washed alcohol. Is there some residual fat that can go rancid over a period of time? I air on the side of caution and keep it in the freezer, taking out as needed, and let it come to room temperature for proper dilution. Also, I have infused nuts into alcohol and an ISI. Is there any nut oil that would seep out and go rancid at room temperature? I don't usually keep ISI infused alcohol in the freezer. My cocktail obsession, didn't start until I took your hydrocoly class last November. Thanks for the enlightenment, crisp beer. Well, thank you for the compliment. That's very nice. Okay, look. When you're fat washing, a certain small amount of fat is soluble in the alcohol, and that's frankly where some of that taste is coming from. Now, as to whether or not it goes rancid. If you're worried about rancidity, one thing you can add is a little bit of vitamin E, which is kind of a fat, you know,
+
+[33:58] fat soluble antioxidant that you can add to try and prevent rancidity. I don't know. Can you just buy that in the store? Vitamin E? Can you just buy a vitamin E in the store? Yeah? All right. You can just go buy it, Toko ferol. Um, but I called up. I couldn't get in touch with Don Lee, but I was trying to get him and John
+
+[34:15] Darragon, who were 2 of the guys at PDT, who used to blast out their famous Benton's bacon, bourbon, fat
+
+[34:24] washed drink for their bacon, bourbon, fat washed thing. It was hugely popular PDT. I don't know what, 4 or 5 years ago, some of that, 4 years ago, whatever it was, three, 4 years ago. And so I said to John, here's the quote. John, did you ever have rancidity problems with fat washing? And then he writes back, he wrote, we didn't have the product around that long. I was like, all right, all right. Have you ever heard about the problem? Because I have a radio question about it. He says, no. But then again, putting bacon sticks in a bottle of vodka. People putting bacon sticks in a bottle of vodka, probably experiencing it, uh, and won't know it because, I don't know, because they're drinking too much bacon in vodka or
+
+[34:57] something. He said something unprintable, so I can't print it. But he basically says is that he, there maybe there's some rancidity happening, but he hasn't noticed
+
+[35:04] it and people who are like doing a lot of bacon in vodka probably don't notice either.
+
+[35:09] He also says, he thinks it depends on the shelf life of the fat. Someone doing a lobster fat wash will have much less stable shelf product than a duck fat or bacon fat. Would be interesting to see if there's a relation to proof of spirit versus stability of product. I agree, John. It would be an interesting thing to look up. I mean, to test. I don't know. I mean, the one thing we do with fat a lot in the ISI is cocoa nibs,
+
+[35:31] and of course, you know, cocoa butter is going to get dissolved in there, but cocoa butter is famously stable against oxidation. You know that's why chocolate lasts so long. I mean, you know, it loses its temper, but it doesn't go rancid. You know what I mean? But, you know, Eben has done a lot of butter fat washing. I wonder whether it goes ransom. I mean, certain things do go bad when they're infused. You know, remember, did you ever have this, the hops one, got all skunked. Nastier. She was 13 and his 1st cousin. You got to speak more into the microphones. She was 13 and his 1st cousin, but his management all insisted she was 15. Oh, wow. See, just like me to believe the management story. Just like you. You know, just too trusting. Company man. Yeah. Matthew writes in on sauerkraut and slow roasting. Hey, Nastasia, I hope all is well with you and Dave. I had a question. I was hoping you could answer them when you had time. I heard Dave mention that lactic acid contributes to sauerkraut type flavors. In fact, it's the acid that you get from lactic acid bacteria making sauerkraut. And you can distinguish, you know, a pickle, you know, an actual lactic acid pickle from a vinegar pickle based on lactic acid. I'm working on a bratwurst sandwich for my business. Sounds good, that I plan to top with pickled purple cabbage. Would it be possible to incorporate a small quantity of lactic acid into my pickle cabbage to suggest a sauerkraut type flavor without actually going through the fermentation
+
+[36:47] product process? Does this make sense, and is it a good idea? Well, I don't know. It's interesting. I've never had really a mix of lactic and vinegar, like a
+
+[36:56] semi-vinegar lactic. I mean, maybe I have, but I haven't I haven't made it myself, so I don't know. Look, it doesn't harm you at all to call up terror spice or modernist pantry. Does modern pantry carry that? I have no idea. Anyway, call them up. Get yourself a bag of lactic acid. It's not that expensive. powder form. I used to get liquid form, but it's a pain to deal with. Don't get that. Just get the powder form, because it stays around forever, and sprinkle it in, and, you know, it really does add, it depends on how you think about it. Sometimes people think of it like cured sausage. Sometimes people think of it like sauerkraut depends on what it's attitude. I'm assuming if you add it to cabbage, it's gonna taste like sauerkraut. Uh, you know, I happen to really love sauerkraut. And so my feeling not having done side by side taste test is you're not going to get the same sort of
+
+[37:39] complex, delicious flavors uh, from a quick pickle that you are from an actual fermentation that produces lactic acid bacteria.
+
+[37:49] On the other hand, quick pickles can just be fresh and delicious tasting, and there's no reason why they can't have a lactic acid flavor as well as a vinegar flavor, right?
+
+[37:56] So, you know, you know, I don't believe in things necessarily, uh, using them, just a shortcuts, but I definitely believe in doing something that's going to make it more
+
+[38:05] delicious. And so if it's a delicious product that you stand behind, then I think it's a good idea, you know? Yeah. Uh, along the same veins. Does shocking, slow roasted or braised meats in an ice bath affect the reabsorption of juices into the meat? I often slowly brace slabs of bacon or other meats wrapped in plastic and foil in the oven at temperatures between
+
+[38:24] 200 and 250 Fahrenheit. I was under the impression that during the cooling process they reabsorb some juices that may have secreted during the cooking. It would speed things up for me to be able to plunge them into an ice bath after braising in order to chill them quickly. What worries me is if this would affect the overall outcome of the product in terms of juiciness. It absolutely will. Absolutely will. This is one of the things that we do in the sous vide class every time we run
+
+[38:46] it, is we show the effect of cooling on pieces of
+
+[38:50] meat if they're too rapidly cooled. And this goes back to something I learned, maybe six, seven, 7 years
+
+[38:55] ago, from Bruno Gouseau, kind of one of the grandfathers of, you know, low temperature cooking, is that you want to cool meats relatively slowly, in order to have them reabsorb juices
+
+[39:08] properly, and that once they get much below about 50 degrees Celsius, they stopped reabsorbing juices.
+
+[39:14] And so you want to ramp the temperature from cooking down relatively slowly. Now, I'll tell you what he recommends. Bruno Gouseau recommends, and we've done side by side. I'll tell you what he recommends. He recommends you take a product out of your cooking bath, and you just leave it on the counter, in air, on the counter for, let's say it's a thick product like you're talking, like a bacon slab, 20
+
+[39:34] minutes. Then throw it into tap water for 20 minutes because the air is not a very good conductor. It's gonna heat it, cool it relatively slowly. Tap room temperature tap water, much better conductor is going to start dropping it down a little more rapidly. After that 20, throw it in ice, and it will get all the way down in a relatively quick and safe amount of time without having to worry about,
+
+[39:54] you know, whether it's going to be chilled properly or not. That's what Bruno Gouseau recommends. And we've tested various regimes from throwing it directly in ice like you recommend, or not you recommend that you ask about, and then versus just going on the counter for 20 minutes and then in ice versus the full
+
+[40:11] Gousseau on the counter, then in water, then in ice. And there's not that much of a difference between the full gousseau and just leaving it on the counter for 20 minutes and then throwing it in ice. So if you have to admit that step, you can, but there is a marginal difference and his method is marginally better. There? Fair. The full gousso. Okay. I also have a small sandwich business, he writes. I would like to make a cheese sauce to serve over a braised beef sandwich. I'm looking for a more temperature stable solution than any traditional Mornay sauce. For those of you out there who don't not hip to it. Mornay is basically a béchamel, so you take a roux, like a flower and butter. You cook it. You add milk. typically they would scald the milk beforehand, but I don't think it's really necessary because milk that we use has been pasteurized, right? And then that thickens up when it comes to the boil. Usually you cook it off now for like 20 minutes to get rid of any residual, starchy and flour flavors. And then towards the end, you stir in cheese to make a delicious cheese sauce.
+
+[41:08] Like, you know, classic would be Gruyere or something like that, right? Styles like Gruyere, because she likes all kind of like fondue y, Swissy kind of crap. She's like, she loves like Italians and Swiss, right? And people. I thought, like, you're the one always coming to the, coming to the defensive, the Swiss people. I make fun of them because they're neutral and you're like, no, they're great. I like their food culture, mostly. But not the people. So you don't like Swiss people? You're going on record saying you don't like Swiss people. I like some Swiss people. All right, all right. Just curious. I was just asking. Okay. Where was I? Mornay sauce. Okay, ideally, I would like to be able to make this sauce ahead of time and just heat it up for service without having to worry too much about
+
+[41:49] it breaking. I'm not sure if it matters, but I would like to incorporate cheddar. I should have said, I would like to incorporate delicious cheddar into the sauce. My goal is a more delicious version of cheese whiz made from actual cheese. I'm not at all averse to adding strange chemicals into the mix. I want the main flavor to come from actual cheese, i.e. not from processed cheese. Any thoughts or ideas? This would be a great assistance. Thanks, Matthew. Okay, look. We've all had cheese sauce go grainy, right? Have you had a cheese sauce, go granny, or have you just never made a cheese sauce before? Yeah, we've all had a cheese sauce go great. She is not paying attention. She's literally staring off into Roberta's waiting for her pizza that is soon to come. So there's a number of things. like a couple problems with cheese. Some cheeses just don't melt very well, right? And they go grainy. The other problem with cheese is you heat them up and they break. So, you know, the basically the fat is bound in kind of a protein and water
+
+[42:38] matrix, and then it breaks and it turns into a fatty, goopy thing and then like a curdled, nasty protein bull crap, and your sauce is ruined, and or it's grainy. And you want to try to prevent all those things. So one of the things you can do to prevent that from breaking is to starch. But of course, there's already starch in your sauce. You can add, you know, maybe a little bit more starch that's not necessarily one that you need to cook off as
+
+[43:00] much, like a rice starch or something like that. Um, but I'm going to talk about non-starch related stuff to get it to go. Obviously, if you're making, if you're having a problem with getting ropey, right, you can add a little acid, which is what McGee
+
+[43:12] recommends and is why fondues always have white wine and then to increase the acidity a little bit, so they tend not to get ropey and they tend to stay smooth. But if you're having melting problems, right? And you want to know how it is that Velveeta is so freaking delicious, but you want to, not from a texture standpoint. I'm not saying you like the taste of Elvita Nastasia because she's making a stink face. I'm saying the stuff melts like a genius. Is there any better melting tree? Is there anything more? Like melty, awesome, and queso dip made with velveeta, government cheese, and rotel tomatoes. Delicious. Anyway, my point is, is if you want that melty thing, you have to add something called melting
+
+[43:51] salts. So what they do is there's a whole category of things called melting salt or emulsifying
+
+[43:57] salt. And they're, use different ones. Sodium citrate is one that you might already have if you have hydrocoloids sitting around, or different sodium phosphates like monosodium phosphate, things like that. You add, you take your cheese before you make a sauce, take the cheese, grind it up fine, mix the salt in in the, in the area of like a percent or something of, of this stuff,
+
+[44:21] right, of the, of either. Try sodium citrate, although I haven't used it like monosodium
+
+[44:25] phosphate, you can get these things on the, you know, maybe you can get them from monos pantry. Well, Chris will get it. anyway. Sodium citrate, you probably already have if you do algerine or things like that. Grind up the grind or grate the cheese. Toss it all together with this. If you need to add some other liquids, if it's too dry, add liquids to it, if you need to add extra fat, add fat to it, if it's very low fat cheese, to try and get it, you know, in a
+
+[44:47] relative into the relative proportions of a good melting cheese, like a Gruyere or something like that, or like Velveeta. Now heat that, right, until it forms a smooth block, until it forms a smooth curd, set that. And then you can use that cheese as the melting cheese in your Mornay
+
+[45:04] sauce and it'll be a lot more stable. What do you think, Snows? I think it's a good idea. All right. So, uh, in doing this, I went and read a bunch of stuff on the internet. And, um, oh, also, if you add some of these things, they can make the pH of
+
+[45:18] your, of your thing, they make it more basic because these things tend to make it like the, their alkaline, they make it more basic. And so it's going to affect the texture of your cheese. You need to add a little bit of an acidifier to the cheese as you melt it to bring the pH back down into the slightly pH
+
+[45:33] range or you're going to have a problem. You can use citric acid, you can use whatever. You can use whatever you want, you know, lemon
+
+[45:40] juice, anything, anything you want. Okay, so what I would do is go read, uh, if you want, if you want to go stuff, go to the university of, how do you pronounce it in Canada? Guelph, University of Guelph. They have the best, like one of the best dairy sites, and they have an entire section on how to make processed cheeses.
+
+[45:58] Uh, and so you should go to their to their website, the University of Guelph, look it up. If you want some cool pictures of what these things look like under the microscope, the little known food under the
+
+[46:10] microscope blog, which you have to search for in Google under foods under the microscope, have a really cool section on it, and also a really cool section on how to look at the
+
+[46:20] curved boundaries inside of cheese that you buy at the supermarket, using
+
+[46:24] like a cheese slicer. Here's what you need. You need a cheese slicer, basically, and you need a sandpaper, and you need a 2 to 5% solution of glutaraldehyde.
+
+[46:36] Now, that sounds like you're not going to have it, except for you can buy glutaraldehyde as a wart
+
+[46:40] remover, in roughly the same percentage that you need, uh, and denatured alcohol and acetone. So you can get all of these things basically at the local CVS or Rite Aid, uh, and
+
+[46:51] and and do it, but I don't have time to go through their uh, procedure, but just go under
+
+[46:56] foodsunderthemicroscope.com and look up their awesome procedure for looking at curb boundaries and cheese. Lastly, we just got a call in from I don't know from whom? Oh, from Don Lee, texted us in. By the way, Donnelly is tending bar from cocktail. He's, you know, representing Cocktail Kingdom with Greg Bohm, which is a fantastic company that sells all sorts of awesome bar gear, including like the world's greatest ice pick for, um,
+
+[47:21] it's an awesome ice pick. Like, I have no idea whether it makes ice crack any better than anything else, but you want to hold it all day long and tap people on the head with
+
+[47:28] it, who bother you? Also, by the way, about them, not to push them or anything, but in general, I have a negative feeling about many reprints of old books because they're done so poorly.
+
+[47:38] And, you know, Greg, who does cocktail kingdom, is also a publisher and an avid book collector, of cocktail books. And I saw one of his reprints of, I think what was it, the flowing bowl or something like that. And it was such a good quality reprint that I thought he had reset the manuscript. That's how good they are anyway, whatever. And they're being gracious enough to be one of the bartending crews at the museum event on Thursday. Don says, uh, regarding rancid fat. I have tasted a rancid fat wash, and it was seriously no bueno, but it was also a fat wash gone terribly wrong. They didn't freeze the fat and properly remove it. The fat was left in slightly above room temperature for 48 hours and definitely had gone rancid. The longest state fat wash I've done was 12 hours with ghee at room temperature before freezing. And that's just from Don Lee, and this has been cooking issues.
+
+[48:32] Fishes, fish, and butter. Oh, you did that.
+
+[48:46] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archives programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[49:03] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[49:19] The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market, opened from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday and 10 to 6 on Sundays.
+
+[49:27] The Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare approved and certified humane raising standards.
+
+[49:33] Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the heritage meat
+
+[49:41] shop at the Essex Street market. This is a message from Fork and Anchor. Aaron Fitzpatrick, the host of our wine program, Unfiltered, is looking for help on Kickstarter to open fork and anchor, a general store inspired by 2 food loving ladies with an equal affection for urban life, the sea, and the agricultural paradise of Long Island's
+
+[49:59] Northfork. The store is situated in a growing community of farmers and wine makers, and will become a meeting place offering prepared foods, a variety of sun dries, and a selection of homespun products, many of which will have their origins in New York
+
+[50:10] State. Your backing will help them fulfill their dream of fostering relationships with
+
+[50:14] the community and making the local food system accessible on a broader scale. Search Kickstarter.com for fork and anchor and donate today.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Fish. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling all of your questions,
+
+[0:33] cooking or non-cooking, tech, or non-tech related to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Currently joining the studio as normal with Nastasia, the hammer Lopez, the hammer of cooking issues. Hi Nastasia. In a couple of minutes, we're going to be joined by superstar Chris Young, who's coming live from the main stage last yesterday at Star Chefs, this being the Starship
+
+[0:57] edition of cooking issues. So he did his main stage demonstration at the International Chef's Congress yesterday, and he'll be here in a couple minutes. He's on the BQE right now, caught in Brooklyn traffic. He is not from Brooklyn, so I think he doesn't realize how awful it can be getting around Brooklyn sometimes when you need to get somewhere, right,
+
+[1:13] Nastasia? Right. Anyway. So, uh, make sure, uh, you know, Chris Young, uh, one of the authors of the Mega Cookbook Modernist
+
+[1:21] Cuisine uh, will be here and he will answer any of your modernist cuisine or a glider.
+
+[1:27] Did you know that he's a glider pilot? Yeah, yeah. He's like an avid glider pilot, like, you know, catching thermals and all
+
+[1:34] that? Not like, you know, little paper airplane gliders, like the ones that he flies in. So he's now the glider pilot. So if you have any questions about gliding or about anything else, really, I guess. Uh, call in your questions, 2718-497-2128, but think about it for a couple
+
+[1:49] minutes, because it's going to take him a couple minutes, probably to get here, but make sure you call in because that's going to be fun. Okay, so what happened since last week? We had our fundraiser, right? Yeah. Yeah, so the museum of Food and Drink had a fundraiser at Ma Pesh Restaurant, which was, I think, an unqualified success in terms, I think the people really had a good time.
+
+[2:07] Yes, they did. Yeah, they had a really good time. Mario Batali. Mario Batali comes to the event and is was bidding like a lunatic in the auction. I mean, 1st of all, I don't know whether if, I don't know whether you know this out there, but one of my skills is to go completely off my
+
+[2:27] rocker bonkers lunatic during an auction situation. Would you agree that's one of my skills? a great auctioneer. Or at least crazy. Like, if you want, if what you want for your auctioneer is crazy, then I think, in fact, in our next event, now, see what you think about
+
+[2:42] this. In our next event, I think I'm going to have as one of the auction items, I'll do an auction for you. Ooh, that's good to, yeah. You like that? Like I'll do like a charity auction for whatever your charity is. Yeah, right? Because I'm sure, you know, most people get like higher ticket items. They're like auctioning off like a country or something like that. I could definitely get that money up there in terms of how much that country is going to sell for as long as they give me the data on the country beforehand. I need the data. I need to get jazzed up. I can get jazzed up about pretty much anything so long as I have the data. Okay, today's show, again, is being, I don't mean that in a negative way. I'm just saying they must like us, which we appreciate. Today's show is brought to you again by the modernist pantry. I will read the, I will read the promo word for word. Today's show is sponsored by the modern pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that order $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free bottle of
+
+[4:12] PeckTanX Ultra SPL, the miracle enzyme. Simply use the promo code CI 56 when placing your order online at wwwmodernistpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. How was that? Good. Jack, was that strong? It's pretty good. Good? Stronger than some of your previous reads. Oh, geez. Of this one or of different ones? different sponsors. Yeah, you know, I'm never going to hear the end of it. Like, listen, if you're going to sponsor this show, right? And you're going to make a piece of equipment that I've never used before, right? I'm just saying, it's hard for me to get enthused. I can't make a claim for a piece of equipment that I've never used. It's like not in my nature. It's just, I can't do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't mind chilling out and selling stuff that, you know, that I know I agree
+
+[4:59] with that. I know they make a good product, right? So, like, you know, I don't know, polyscience. I like their circulator, so I don't mind shilling for them. you know what I'm saying? But if I've never used your stuff before, how am I going to sell it? Jack, you're still mad at me about that? Sorry, no, I'm not bad. All right, all right. Okay. I am impressed that you've memorized 7 of the 10 digits in the phone number. Oh, yeah. By the way, guys, I still don't have the phone number for this show. Memorized. I've had listeners who haven't memorized. I don't have it memorized, but I'm getting very very close. I'm just missing the middle 3 digits and then we're going to be good. Okay. Uh, uh, who said this question, by the way, Nastasia, I don't have the name on the Ikigime. You'll find it. So I have a question in, uh, from about Ikigime. Ikjime, by the way, is the fish killing technique that we
+
+[5:42] use, that we studied, Japanese style, and there's different levels of Ikjime. Ikigime really just means fish killing, but we use, in particular, a technique called Shinkenuki, which means destroy the
+
+[5:52] spine. And the idea being that by destroying the spine of the fish, uh, you, you, you basically, what happens is, is that the spine keeps sending messages to the muscles even after you've killed the brain. And so, uh, those messages that are getting sent to the muscles, reduce the amount of ATP that's
+
+[6:09] available that's in the muscles because the muscles are using the ATP. The faster you use that up, the faster you go into rigor, the faster you go into rigor,
+
+[6:17] typically the harder you go into rigor mortis. And fish muscle is so strong that, you know, the strength of the contraction is strong enough to actually damage the
+
+[6:24] muscle. So when it comes out of rigor, if it goes into rigor very hard and very fast, gets damaged, gets mushy. So if you're going to serve a piece of fish, certain fish and you do this thing with spinal cord ablation, shinkanuki, you can get a firmer textured fish. So that's what we're talking about. And here's the question. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Ikujime and how much it would, could really improve the flavor and texture of fish caught on a rod and reel.
+
+[6:49] I'm going to the Gulf Coast next week and hope to catch king mackerel, redfish, bluefish, and maybe some flounder and speckled trout. By the time a fish has landed, I will have been struggling against the line for maybe as long as 10 minutes or as few as 30 seconds. Big fish will be gaffed, then hauled up onto the fishing pier. At that point, the custom in the area is to whack it over the head and dispatch it, then throw it in the cooler. My question is, to what extent can Ikajime improve the outcome? The fish will be stressed regardless of how it's subsequently treated. My plan would be to bring the fish to the pier, then either knife the brain or simply cut through the backbone blood vessels behind the head, then cut the tail, destroy the spinal column, and then bleed in ice water. An alternative would be to fillet immediately. If the cooler is too big for a whole fish, fingers crossed, because he wants a big fish. Are there any downsides to cutting the fish into large chunks and destroying the spinal column in
+
+[7:39] each, then bleeding in ice water? Any procedural suggestions would be appreciated. Okay. This is an excellent, excellent question. His name is Andy. Hey, Andy, this is an excellent question, Andy, because one of the things I've always wondered on
+
+[7:53] Ikejime is the effect of post-catch stress on an animal. And now, obviously you want the animal to be as little stressed, as rested, as is humanly possible. And that's not necessarily possible when you line catch something. I've had only one experience with a line caught boat, Ikiji made, uh, game fish in our waters, and that's in striped bass. So I did a shoot with Dave Chang for his iPad application. I don't know if it's out yet or not. I don't know. anyway. And one of the production assistants there, fish is off of Montauk regularly, went out on a boat and got line caught stripers and did Ikigime with the spinal cord ablation on one, and then basically, you know, whack over the head,
+
+[8:41] gil cut, throw in a cooler with the other. And there was a definite difference in taste, the Ikejime one being better, having a better texture. So that's only an N of one. So it's very hard to know whether or not in all cases. I mean, in other words, anytime you get the fish and you do the Ikigime, you're increasing the quality as much as possible. Would you like there to be less stress as the thing is being caught, sure. But I think it's definitely getting, uh, you're definitely going to get some help, at least in the very small amount of experience I've had with line caught
+
+[9:13] fish. Ikejime. There was a, there was a difference. Um, and, you know, obviously the ones that are struggling, 30 seconds are going to be the best. Also, you know, I would guess that the bigger, stronger fish, the stronger fish is, the kind of the more of effect you're going to get. Now, listen, I really need you when you go to, this is what I want you to do. Please, Andy, if you can do this for me, I want you to catch 2 bluefish. mean, I know you can't control it. But I want you to catch 2 bluefish. And I want you to do Ikigime on one, and I want you to not do Ikigime on the other one. And I want you to tell me whether there is a difference on bluefish
+
+[9:53] specifically. The reason I'm interested in bluefish is bluefish is one whose texture and flavor can go off relatively quickly after it comes out of, you know, after it's killed. And I want to know whether EKA Jimmy can help with it because it's also a fish that really isn't eaten. I don't think in Japan. And so it could be really an American kind of test on this. Plus I love bluefish. Some people don't like bluefish. I love bluefish and I've never been able to get Ikigi made bluefish. So please, please test that. Now, instead of whacking over the head. After you gaff the fish and bring it over, I would immediately I would spike its brain. Um, and the reason is, is, is that stops it from flopping around and it's very easy to hit as opposed to trying to do a
+
+[10:33] gill cut, right? You could hit it over the head and then do the gill cut, but I think you're better off spiking the brain. That, like, kills it like this and takes away the stress and then you have an easier time getting to the spinal cord. Now, cut the spinal cord and a tail. I'm trying to learn how to go through the head of the fish to get the spinal cord, so you don't necessarily need to do the cut before you do the spinal cord ablation, but I'm not quite there
+
+[10:54] yet, because that's how they do it on tuna. Uh, but so I would, I would put it through the head first, then uh, do the 2 cuts, put it through the spinal cord. And when you get it through the spinal cord. You've never done it before. You can see the fish. It'll do like a shimmy as the needle goes down. So you know exactly how far the needle has gone down and through the fish. So you know where you are. Now, I would, um, if the cooler is not big enough, I think you're going to have some problems. Here's why you don't want to cut open the fish. Cut it into pieces first. You want the blood pumping, basically. You want the heart to help pump out the blood to really, really, really clean it out. So, if you can, please don't chop it into pieces before you get it into the cooler.
+
+[11:36] Maybe actually if you can get down to the water. You can just bleed it in the water where the fish is. I don't know how high up the pier is or whether you can get to the water. Another suggestion. Gut it right there after you do the Ikigime, gut it. Uh, as you after you open it up, bring a stiff brush with you, uh, and then go
+
+[11:54] under, uh, take your, um, take your knife and go and cut along the membrane that's on the underside of the spine to expose and cut open the blood vessels that are running underneath the spinal column and scrub that underwater with a brush to get all of that goopy stuff out because that goes uh, off as
+
+[12:11] well. I would pull the gills out immediately and then take it and ice it and put it in the thing. I think that's going to be like uber maximum quality. What do you think does? That's good. He also wanted to know one another thing. Oh, yeah, I haven't read a second. Oh no, but there's one more after that. One more after the other one I'm about to read? All right. Okay. So Andy also has a question on canning and pasteurization. It's a two-part question. He says, most canning recipes call for the seal jars to be processed for 10 minutes in boiling or simmering water, supposedly to kill any nasties and ensure a safe
+
+[12:43] product, and the low temperature charts on the blog, cookingissues.com, which I realize are dedicated towards meat and poultry. I say that anything over 74 degrees Celsius is instantly safe. Do I need to process in the water bath for 10 minutes to achieve sterility or is a 10 minute cook more for textual reason? Um, And then B, I did not use enough pickling liquor in a couple of jars, and subsequently not all of the pickled green beans are fully covered with a liquid. Is that a major problem? Okay. A couple of things going on here. So if you're going to okay. We're talking about pasteurization versus sterility, okay? Um, When you're processing something in, 1st of all, if you're
+
+[13:26] going to can an item, if you want to achieve sterility, right? You have to, you can't just boil in in simmering water, you have to uh, sterilize that thing, which means you have to pressure cook it using, uh, you know,
+
+[13:40] recognized canning procedures. And those canning procedures are based on, uh, I think what's in
+
+[13:46] the, what's in the can or what's in the jar and how big the jar
+
+[13:50] is, because you have to guarantee a certain temperature for a certain length of time at the center of your jar in order to kill any spores that are in there.
+
+[14:00] So there are certain bacteria, and the one they're really worried about in canning is botulism,
+
+[14:06] which basically forms spores and can't be boiled out with normal boiling, you have to go well over the boiling temperature and actually sterilize,
+
+[14:15] okay? Now, the reason you can do canning at lower temperatures without a pressure cooker in certain situations is because you have enough acidity present in your product to or
+
+[14:28] salt or combination of salt and acidity, to ensure that no botulism is going to grow in there. And if that's the case, you just need to kill off some of the easier to kill bacteria that aren't spore
+
+[14:39] forming, and all the spore forming bacteria don't grow because of the very high salt
+
+[14:44] content or very high acid content or both. So, um, when you are boiling something or simmering it for 10 minutes at, you're just ensuring you're getting to that high,
+
+[14:56] uh, uh, temperature, that's not really a sterilization procedure. So the question is really, what are you trying to guard against? You could, you could cook for a longer period of time at a lower temperature and kill everything that's in there from a vegetative standpoint and therefore get a different
+
+[15:15] texture, right? But only if your product is inherently safe from a
+
+[15:22] spore standpoint. So I make this very, very, very, very, very clear. If you are going to sterilize, if you want to sterilize something and make a shelf stable product, you can leave on an unrefrigerated shelf for an infinite length of time, you have to either can it using a pressure
+
+[15:40] canner using recognized procedures for pressure canning, or you have to ensure that you have enough salt or acidity in that can to ensure that no spores, no spore forming bacteria are
+
+[15:52] going to grow after you do your initial kill step. Spore. Spore. So, and if you, if, if you have that, you can cook at a lower temperature for longer and basically effectively pasteurize the
+
+[16:06] product but not sterilize it. On the 2nd part of the question where you're worried about there not being enough cooking liquor in the, you know, pickling liquid in it, that could conceivably be a
+
+[16:16] problem if it doesn't diffuse in fast enough. You could get possibly some growth of product in the portion of the thing that's uncovered. It's very hard to say without knowing it first. But be very careful when you're canning, uh, to ensure that you're not going to grow botulism. Let's take our first commercial break.
+
+[16:53] Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. I feel you can't be him. But I don't care what they say. The thing I've got, I'm coming from a brand new place. I'm stealing squeak, and I don't miss the lake, and I better don't leave no trace. Hey, take it out. Take it out Take out this new list. What about my new trip? And believe me, the capital is stealing hard. The cats don't sleep, steal it hard. Some cats with a bad for the biggest part. Check me out. That's where the buses start. Taking place, so keep ours right, when you got no life, and the birds can't take no case. That's me, just, you gotta be, just, just. gotta be by the hip
+
+[18:15] Welcome back. Are we on? Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Chris Young is still on his way, still caught on the BQE,
+
+[18:34] which for those of you who don't know our fine neighborhoods over here sucks. Right, Jack? It does does suck. Especially Flushing, have sucks. And that's kind of where it's close to where that's close to where we are. Probably where he's getting off, yeah. Yeah, you know, Roberta is, like I tell you why Roberta is designed, basically solely for hipsters. And the only train really that services this place is the L, which is the hipster line. You know? We were, like, they threatened to shut down the L, didn't they, Nastasia, for, like, for like a week or something like that. Every weekend it's shut down. So what are the hipsters going to do? There's a there's a website that we can plug called is the Ltrain fucked.com. Wow, busted out the everything. What are you gonna say, Dave? F-bomb. F-bop, what? I mean, Jack already told him about it. They can go to it. And the answer is pretty much, yes. Yes. Well, here's the real question. Do you need to get somewhere? Then the L train won't take you. If you don't need to get there in a big hurry? The L train will be fine. I think that's pretty much, pretty much out of the LT. You could take the J. Yes, you can take the J if you enjoy a 20 minute walk. Okay. Hello? Another, a different Andrew writes, oh, by the way, Andy emailed us while I was talking about
+
+[19:46] that. how long do you want to age the bluefish and or mackerel when you catch it? I don't know. It's really something you have to kind of test. I would, after you get it home, I would take and cut them into 2 filets. I would taste some right away, uh, and then I would uh, like keep it a day and then test it there. I doubt it's going to take longer than a day to be good. I mean, most people who eat bluefish, they want you to eat it right right away. I mean, like if you if you ever grew up fishing on Cape Cod or, you know, you grew up on near Cape Cod in the summers and people fish for you, which is what happened to me.
+
+[20:17] They would give you bluefish and because it was considered a trash fish, you know, when I was growing up. And they would tell you to eat it right away, and strangely, it's known as a very oily fish, and they would tell you, they would always grill it always. 100% of the time it would be grilled. I've never had it cooked any other way on the cape. And they would tell you to put mayonnaise on the fish. And here, I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but they say, oh, they don't talk like this because they're from Cape Cod. Oil gets out oil. That's how it works. You put the mayonnaise on a fish because oil gets out oil. It doesn't make any damn sense to me at all. Makes no damn sense, but that's, I'm just telling you, that's what they used to say. I know, you know, mackerel, another oily fish you don't think of is aging necessarily, but some of the most interesting best mackerel I've ever had was
+
+[20:55] Saba sushi, which was basically mackerel that had been aged overnight wrapped in kombu.
+
+[21:00] Like he fought like the chef. Sasaki sign, formed, you know, basically a roll with a vinegared rice and the mackerel wrapped it in kombu and aged it overnight, which was delicious.
+
+[21:09] So I think it's just you have to see, I used to have to test it. You're going to test it and you're going to tell us how long to age it. Rice stars? Yeah, she's not listening. We're doing a radio show. asked me to do something, didn't you? No, I just asked you to that was that was like a half hour ago. condense this question. Oh, yes, she is condensing a question. She is doing work for the radio show people, so I apologize. Okay. Andrew, different Andy writes in. I have a few questions I've stored up rather than emailing you one little question each week. Hope that's okay. So firstly, I was wondering about the mechanics of cartouches and whether there's really a reason to use one over just putting a lid on. Now, what we're talking about here, a cartouche is not in cooking parlance. It's not like an Egyptology term. And cooking parlance, a cartouche, is a piece of parchment paper that you cut into a circle,
+
+[22:01] and then you cut a little circle in the middle so that it just fits into a
+
+[22:04] pot. Uh, and usually you're going to use that in, when you're braising something, you'll put that in and, uh, and or if you're cooking, um, certain times you're cooking vegetables, you'll do that. You put a little bit of water, you know, and sugar and whatnot, you know, butter, whatever, in your vegetables and you'll
+
+[22:21] put like a cartouche over it and cook it. Now, the theory of them is that it allows a certain amount of moisture to leave through the central hole in
+
+[22:31] the in the paper, right? Kind of like a parachute, lets some of the steam out. So you get a slow reduction, right? Without it getting a, like it's not super fast. It's kind of a controlled reduction. And also, it keeps basically 100% humidity environment over the portions of the paper that are covered.
+
+[22:51] So you're not going to get on a braised item, for instance, you're not going to get a lot of drying out of the meat that is not directly centered over the whole,
+
+[23:00] right? That makes sense. So, uh, is there a big difference between that and just putting a lid on, I don't know. You know, I've never I' never really done the test. I can tell you how many times at home, I've made, uh, made the cartouche roughly zero. You know what I mean? Like on the order of 0 is how many, I mean, that's not true. I used to do it sometimes for the heck of it. I just don't know that there's going to be that much benefit over keeping the lid on. I'd have to run a side by side test and see whether it really controls the uh, evaporation rate any better, or whether or not it actually prevents
+
+[23:37] uh, kind of some surface drying of the meat. Maybe this is something when Chris makes it here from the BQE, we can ask him about, yeah? I'll put that on the list of things to talk to him about cartouche, because I'm sure that they've studied that because they did a bunch of in-depth studies of classic cooking
+
+[23:53] techniques. And, you know, they like to debunk the classic cooking techniques. So we can actually get him going
+
+[23:57] on comfit as well. Get his motor going on confit. Okay. My other question is about the method you talked about some shows ago with using gelatin and meat glue to make noodles. By the way, this is a Wiley Dufrene trick. One of the great properties of gelatin, as I'm sure you know, is its fantastic flavor release, is this still the case in this application? Also, is there any benefit in using this method over other thermo irreversible gels for making noodles, I guess. Now, that's an interesting question. I've had the noodles and the noodles are delicious. Also, they fry really well better than any other kind of hydrocoloid noodle I've had. As for the flavor release, I mean, it seemed to me that they had a good flavor
+
+[24:37] release because it's just my recollection. Okay, gelatin, anytime you use a gel. You care about whether or not that gel has a good flavor release. So, for instance, Algernate gel doesn't break up in your mouth very well. doesn't leak out a lot of fluid. Uh, so is basically the worst for flavor release. It's a flavor thief. It's, uh, you know, it's kind of, it's Alginets are the enemy of flavor, which is why you either want a very thin or very
+
+[25:10] soft alginate shell, uh, or, you know, a lot of something very, very flavorful. Otherwise, you're going to get a lot of the flavor sapped out. And that's the problem a lot of times with things like alternate. Things like gelan have very good flavor release because they leak a lot of moisture. They break very easily in the mouth, and they, uh, and they're used at very low concentration. So they tend to mask flavorless. Gelatin is kind of the gold star standard for flavor release for a number of reasons. It breaks very easily in the mouth. Liquid comes out. And also it melts at body temperature. So when you eat it, gelatin literally melts in your mouth and turns back to a liquid. Flavor release doesn't get much better than that, right? So in this scenario, where basically what we're doing is we're taking translutaminates, meat glue, stirring it in with a gelatin. The Miko is cross-linking the gelatin so that the gelatin will no longer melt, not only at body temperature, but it won't melt even at deep frying temperatures. So one of the things that gives gelatin, it's great flavor release, the fact that it melts in your mouth, is not going to happen. However, it still breaks up very nicely in your mouth, almost like a pasta. So is it going to have as good a flavor release as straight gelatin? I would bet not But it, you know, it is going to have a better, it does have a good flavor
+
+[26:30] release, and that's just from kind of, you know, me, me knowing that from eating it.
+
+[26:34] May name. Yeah? Yeah, okay. Okay, the finally, although it's not really finally, because he has the 4th question. By the way, when you guys write in and you say, finally, make it the final question. Ask as many as you like, but make the final one, the last one. All right. Just kidding. I'm just kidding, Andrew. I don't really care. Okay. In your post on Enzymatic Peeling, you use a combination of 2 enzymes. I used Pectinex Ultra SPL, which is the one that they're selling on Monter's Pantry, and Pectinex
+
+[27:01] Smash XXL, which was the 1st one of the enzymes really that I was using for breaking down Pectin.
+
+[27:08] Uh, and when I wrote the uh, and post on peeling things with uh, enzymes. I used both. Have you found that Pectinex Smash XXL is not really necessary? In other words, can you do it just with PecnX ultra SPL? Yes. You can. So I no longer bother sourcing Pectinex, Smash, XxL. I find that if you just add a little bit more of the Pectonex ultra SPL, that it works fine. The reason I initially used both was the people at Novazymes, the enzyme person at Novazymes, said that the one that was most
+
+[27:44] optimal, they used to make an enzyme called Peelzyme, whose only job it was, was to break down the kind of membrane around citrus
+
+[27:51] fruits, and also the albedo, the white part in a citrus fruit, right?
+
+[27:55] That's all that thing was built for, peelzyme. They stopped making Peel's eye. Chris Young is coming. I see him coming around. They stopped making peels on. And so what the enzyme specialist at Nova Zyme said was, why don't you use a mixture of Smash XXL and Ultra SPL. But then later, it's just slightly more effective. So I just use a little more of the one enzyme than you would
+
+[28:21] of the 2 combined and it works fine. We use about 4 grams per liter, ultra SPL, in
+
+[28:26] our solutions to do our peeling. So that's going to work fine. All right. We are joined in the studio, by none other, than Chris Young, author of Modernist Cuisine. Friend of friend of mine, friend of the cooking issues, and uh, are one of our West Coast buddies. What's going on, Chris?
+
+[28:49] Not too much. very frustrated with your traffic here in New York. Yes, not used to it. Not used to it. I like that. Because, you know, in Seattle, everything's nice. The traffic's nice. Me, me, me, me, me. Yeah, that's, I think why I'm going to go right back. I like the west coast. All right. one question for you before I forget. We had someone write in. I don't know if you address this in modernist cuisine. By the way, call in all of your questions to Chris at 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So someone was saying, you know, cartouches, you know, where you cut the paper and then you cut the little hole in the center of the paper and you put it in the pot so that it kind of gently boils
+
+[29:25] down. Any point in that as opposed to a lid? Not really one that I could possibly think of. All you're going to do is slow down the evaporation, keep it closer to the boiling point,
+
+[29:37] but no, I don't really see any benefit to it over a lid. Yeah, me neither. Well, that's the thing. So the question is, is, are you going to prevent any local, so if you have a very tall pot, right? And I'm just talking right out of my behind here. But if you have a very tall pot and you have, let's say, wow, that was my iPad, folks. And you have like a, uh, like an ocebuco or something like that. Uh, and so your liquid's not covering the thing. Do you think it's going to get any drier because of the because of the steam basically hitting that one section that's not covered?
+
+[30:09] Is it really not going to make a difference? You can have like a local deficit of humidity there. I mean, I don't know. That's the only thing. in the oven. I can see there being a bit of an argument for using one in a brazen in oven. On a stovetop. I don't see any benefit over a lid. I think that's highly suspect that it's going to make a significant difference there. But in an oven, you are going to slow down evaporation. You're going to raise the wet bulb temperature and you're going to get an effective higher braising temperature than if you left it
+
+[30:36] uncovered. Oh, sure. By the way, this is something that, you know, as long as Chris is here. Let's debunk this sucker right now. You are not creating any pressure in a pot by putting
+
+[30:50] a lid on. Uh, even a minute overpressure in your pot is many pounds of force on a large lid.
+
+[31:02] You are not, not increasing the pressure to the extent that you're increasing the temperature on the inside of that pot.
+
+[31:09] What you are doing by preventing evaporation is getting your temperature actually up to the boil throughout rather than, uh, rather than allowing it
+
+[31:19] to, uh, be, basically be evaporate cooler. So, an experiment you should run at home is take an oven with 2 pyrex dishes. Same pyrex dish. Set your oven to 350. Cover one pyrex dish with aluminum foil, tightly, and then, you know, jam a lid into it so that, you know, you're not getting much evaporation off of it, and then leave the other one open.
+
+[31:39] The one that's covered will boil, the one that is not covered won't. Agree? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Uh, okay. So, Chris, how was your main stage, how was your, how do you feel about it? This is your 2nd time on the main stage of Star Chef, by the way, right? Yes, this was my 2nd time. This was a bit interesting. I think we attempted to do a little more cooking this time and a little less dog and pony show, which went pretty
+
+[32:06] well except for the fact that we were cut short by about 15 minutes. Yeah. You know, when you're doing a show that you set up from kind of far away, you have X amount to
+
+[32:15] do, and you know you're going to do a lot. You don't want to get. I mean, 15 minutes is a big deal. No, I had to cut a lot out and we had to compress a lot of a lot of steps. So luckily my colleague, Kyle was able to keep up with me as I drop stuff, but it was entertaining. came complete with its own explosions. Oh, yeah. Well, so I didn't realize what happened. Apparently, what happened? Okay, so we might as well get into this. So one of the things, look, Modernist cuisine cost 500 bucks, right? And I get this knock, and I don't have nearly the kind of crap that you guys had. So I'm sure you get this knock even more than I have. This is stuff. You need a lot of equipment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Youve heard this bullshit many times. I've certainly heard people assume that you need 1000s of dollars worth of toys to do this stuff. By the way, not the case. Not only is it not the case, is that in my opinion, is that if even if you don't have access to the toys, seeing what other people can do with the
+
+[33:09] toys helps you understand food in general, even if you're only cooking with a stick over a fire.
+
+[33:13] That's just the way I feel about it. But, uh, So, one of the demos that Chris uh, did yesterday at Star
+
+[33:20] Chefs was to do um, low temperature reductions without having to buy a
+
+[33:26] RotoVap. So basically your ability to do low temperature reductions in a restaurant situation for under 500 bucks relatively effectively, yes? Yes, that was the point is how do you how do you get on eBay, a little Google Foo, and put together your own evaporative reduction
+
+[33:41] system, or vacuum reduction system. Right. So it's not, it's not a distillation system because you can't recover. Uh, actually, you know what? Then it's totally legal, though, even to do porting it because you can't recover. That's right. You're not recovering any of the vapors. So it's not a replacement for a Rotov app, but it is fun to point out and just needle you a little, saying, you don't actually need a Rotov app to do what 80% of people do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although, you know, I am the other section where I am almost always using the illegal distillate, but in
+
+[34:11] restaurants, you can't because, you know, you can't, you know, endanger your liquor license. That's the main problem. So what Chris did was he set up an aspirator pump. You had a nice one though. That one's not a cheap one. Well, we bought that one used, though. So I think if you were to buy that one new, yes, it would probably be about $1000 new. There's no reason for it to cost that much. I saw them used on eBay for around 500, but I didn't get into this yesterday, but you don't even need that. You can even buy the aspirating nozzles that screw on a faucet and just use the Venturi effect to basically give you a vacuum. And that's what 1000s of chemistry labs around the country do. Right, but then your boiling temperature is only going to get down to whatever. I mean, look, here's the way an aspirator works. is you're, you shoot liquid past uh, um, an orifice at high velocity. It carries basically the air with it and sucks a vacuum. You're limited in the vacuum that you can suck by basically by whatever the vapor pressure of water happens to be at the temperature that the water is.
+
+[35:13] So the most effective way to do this is to use ice water. And so recirculating aspirator pumps are the way to go if you want to get the lowest
+
+[35:23] stuff. And if you don't believe in throwing water away, like absurd amounts of waterway. Because you're talking like gallons, gallons and gallons and gallons. Now, I'm not going to tell you to go on the internet, search for do-it-yourself meth labs, and see how those guys use a flowjet pump hooked up with PVC tubes to aspirators to build your own recirculating
+
+[35:47] aspirator, because I wouldn't advocate that you go up and look up, do it
+
+[35:51] yourself, meth labs. But if you wanted to, you could go there and for about, uh, with at Home Depot, you can get a good pump that'll do this for like, you know, 80 bucks, 90 bucks, and then you just go buy a series, you have to buy 2 or 3 aspirators, put them in, uh,
+
+[36:10] in, um, parallel to get a higher rate of pump down and you can do this, although I'm not advocating it. But you can do it. I'm advocating the pump, not the, not the meth. Yeah, I think that's what's coming across here, David, though I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? Like, until they get so tweaked out that they blow themselves up in their own lab. Like, you start with like a people who are smart enough to do Orgo, basically, right? And, you know, kind of ambitious enough to build their own setups. And, uh, so, you know, they have some good ideas. And then they, you know, I think what I'm hearing here is you're not, you're advocating buying some stuff at Home Depot, not some phenol alanine solution. Bingo. Okay. Yeah, yes. Yeah, okay. So, uh, anyway, look, we learn from everyone. Learn from meth labs if they're there to help you. But what I was really interested in. with this setup. So basically it's just an Erlin Meyer flask with a side arm, a plug in it, and a stirring hot plate. Although, you know, you could get away with, look, you don't want to ignite it. So you can get away with, you could get away with, I guess you need it to stir, huh? Yeah, you want to avoid the bumping, that sort of the, aside from stirring and getting yourself a nice vortex for greater surface area, you will get it jumping all over the place if you were just to put it in a pot on a hot stove.
+
+[37:29] Right. I mean, my only problem with the, with those stirring hot plates is that, um, A, they're not cheap. You have to get them used. You have to get them used, but there was a, I, I, literally before my presentation yesterday, Googled eBay just to double check, and there was a huge number of them for around
+
+[37:47] $100. And they're dirt simple, so there's not much that can break about them. Right. But just so you guys who haven't used one out there. They are great. Not going to deny that. Um, you know, and they, and this man egg bars are like 2 bucks
+
+[38:02] from McMastercar.com or Cole Palmer or whatever. like 2 bucks. They nothing. The one problem I have with them is that their heat rate is
+
+[38:11] very, very slow. So they will, once they're stable, they're good and ready to rock, but just know that when you turn one on, don't expect it to get up to
+
+[38:20] temperature instantly. And they don't dump a lot of watts quickly into your,
+
+[38:25] but it's not a problem. Actually, that's good for you. That's good. They're designed for a chemistry lab where stability of your temperature and accuracy is a lot more important than responsiveness.
+
+[38:34] So it can be frustrating when you turn it on and it takes 30 minutes to get to stable temperature, but once it's there, who cares? Right. That it. But that's my point. My point is, is that is that it's going to take a cook a while. to get used to the response. Is it really all that different than a French top? mean, a French top. You turn it on in the morning, you leave it on all day, it doesn't change temperature massively. If you're used to that, you just leave this thing on all day and know that it's hot and don't touch it. That's a very good point. Another point I've always said is that I wish more cooks in the U.S. were used to French tops because... I did my cooking and over in the with the euros. Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, the amazing thing about them is that I think it's really interesting to, because on a
+
+[39:17] French top, you don't you don't adjust temperature by adjusting knobs, you cook
+
+[39:22] spatially. So you know uh, kind of what, you know, you know what temperature your pot's going to be based on where it is in space on the top, which I think is really great. I think it's really interesting way to cook, but again, not something that I think most US cooks are used to. No, and I think we'll probably end up skipping that and going to induction. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I always wonder, is like, is there a problem doing an induction magster?
+
+[39:46] Is it a problem or can it be done? I would think it could be done. It might be a little bit of cleverness because you would need to, you'd
+
+[39:54] have, you'd be trying to couple a magnetic field of the pot at the same time. Uh, basically rotate that field to get your your, uh, stir spending. So I imagine it could be done, but it wouldn't be trivial. Yeah. So anyway, so what Chris is talking about about the explosions yesterday was that he took the thing off of the heater to show that it was still going to
+
+[40:13] boil, even though it wasn't being currently heated. It's because we were lowering the pressure or he was lowering the pressure in the Erlenmeyer using the aspirator. And set it down, eventually what happens is the aspirator starts getting the pressure down and the product starts cooling and it's no longer
+
+[40:31] boiling. Sucked enough of a vacuum to inhale the cap that was on the flask, into the
+
+[40:36] Erlin Meyer flask, and then ejected liquid out of the
+
+[40:40] Erlin Meyer into the air. Uh, it's kind of cool. I thought it was nice. Yeah, that was rather spectacular. It gave me pause. Yeah, it was a good 10 seconds going, what the hell just happened there? Yeah, well, you know, and this is a, oh, this is another big point. A couple things about this. One, I'm not going to insult the Gastrovac on air except to say that it doesn't work and it's useless. So, uh, the only way you can make Gastrovac is, by the way, is a machine that you buy that has a very bad vacuum pump on
+
+[41:07] it that then, should I be saying this? Do you agree with me on this? It's a bad vacuum pump. It's useless. Yeah, it's useless. If you own a chamber vacuum machine, there's no reason to own a gas vac. True or false? I don't think there's a reason to own a gastrovac full stop. Right. But if the Gastrovac guys had, instead of putting that vacuum pump on it, put an ice, an
+
+[41:29] ice aspirating pump, now I think you have a good thing. So the point of a gastrovac is you're supposed to be able to do, as Steingarten told us yesterday, Jeffrey Steingarten, was to do things like jellies at lower temperatures so that things don't
+
+[41:43] caramelize, and to do like Wiley was very, very interested in vacuum frying for a long time so that you could get all the moisture.
+
+[41:50] Well, and you can fry things that are very sweet that would burn at normal frying temperatures. Bingo. They do this in the tropics and Thailand and stuff, they'll do deep fried pineapple chips. Sure. Or apple chips, another big one that you do that you want to totally dehydrate them in a frying situation, but not at a lower temperature. But this isn't the way most people view their gastro vaccum. I think why we're both saying this isn't a compelling technology. Right, because, and here's the kicker, the gastrovac won't work for either of those 2 applications, because anyone that knows anything about vacuums and distillations will tell you, in order to boil something off, you need to either recondense it or your vacuum pump needs to be able to handle the
+
+[42:31] vapor, and it can't, but Chris's aspirator pump, on the other hand, could do
+
+[42:36] that, because it can take as much water in as it wants. It doesn't matter. That is one of the beauties of it is you can foul it up with the worst vapors and it does not care. That's why we use them in chemlabs. Right. So. Well, I'm not giving up my roto vap anytime soon. I think this would be a good solution to do kind of lower temperature
+
+[42:54] jellies, if you want to reduce citrus juices, or anything that has a real delicate aroma flavor that would change with any high temperature
+
+[43:02] boiling. This is the way to go So I'm going to give it a qualified thumbs up. Listen, why don't we go to one more commercial break and we'll come back for another segment with Chris Young.
+
+[43:17] Hey! Scott, it's got to pay back. Revenge.
+
+[43:30] A man. Got to get back. I need some gift back. Hey back. Hey, back. That did. Pay back! Again! I'm man! Get down with my girlfriend. That ain't right. Whoa, Morgan. Holocast. fight Hey, man, you got to see. Yeah. Never do any damn thing to me.
+
+[44:26] Sold me up. Chicken chain. Yes, you did. Told me you did. They had all the rain. Hand it down. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions in too, Nastasia. What's the number? 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All righty. Oh, by the way, before we go any further, Adam Lazarrick wrote a question before, and apparently there was a typo. He wants everyone out there in internet land to know that he does not recommend cooking a, was a short rib, I think, at 130 for 8 hours. He knows that that's not long enough. So he doesn't want anyone to have that 130 F for 8 hours attached to his name in any
+
+[45:14] way or to the Lacroix restaurant where he works in Philly and we hope to get out to the next time we're in Philly. So for anyone out there listening, he knows better. I saw him on Star Chefs actually yesterday. Nice guy. Okay. And one more little note. If I can get back to it, is in fact, I'll get back to the note. I'll have it be my ending. Andrew wrote in and agrees with you about candies, but I'll read his. I'll read his notes on candies as we go. Oh, I also mentioned before you got here that you were a glider pilot. I am. Yeah. That is the other hobby. Yeah. So, well, gliding and cooking. That's, you know, what else do you need? So, uh, I want to talk about some of the stuff you're working with. I mean, look, everybody who's tuned into our show knows modernist cuisine. I feel like, you know, I like, if you don't know, I would be shocked if there's even one person who can hear my voice right now that doesn't already know about
+
+[46:08] modern cuisine because... Did our publicist pay you to say this? No, I mean, I'm just saying, I still, you know, I can't, I can't picture it. Look, if you don't know it, if you are the one person who was suddenly born and got interested in
+
+[46:21] technical cooking and this is the 1st thing you've ever heard about it, go Google Modernist cuisine. Okay. But let's talk about some of the stuff you're working on after the book. Sure. One of the things I was interested, you were telling me you were working on a project on milk in
+
+[46:37] Africa. You want talk about that? Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So we did the cookbook at Nathan's day job, which is running a company called Intellectual Ventures, which simply
+
+[46:48] put, it's an invention company. And so the cookbook project was just one of many odd projects going
+
+[46:53] on, we had anti-malarial projects involving laser shooting mosquitoes
+
+[46:57] down that was going on right in front of the kitchen. I've seen the laser. cool. Yeah. So, I got asked at the end of the book project, since I'm kind of a technical food
+
+[47:07] guy. If I would help out on another project that was going on the lab, which was, um, basically improving, uh, the milk situation in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly Kenya and Uganda. This is a Gates Foundation sponsored project. And we take it for granted here in this country that we can get milk from the farm, it can be shipped, it can be pasteurized,
+
+[47:28] and it can be kept cold, shipped around, and distributed, and we get this very fresh milk supply. But in fact, that's a very recent technology. Even in this country, it's less than about 60 years old that we've reliably done that. And before that, we did all sorts of crazy wacky stuff, like putting formaldehyde in milk to try to eke out a little bit more shelf life because we didn't have a reliable cold chain.
+
+[47:46] Delicious formaldehyde. Yeah, real tasty stuff. So Africa turns out shipping things and keeping them cold really difficult. Reliable coal chain, non-existent. And so by some estimates, 50% of the milk. that these small hole dairy farmers produce spoils before it can be sold. Incidentally, it turns out that 50% they would need to increase their amount of milk sold by about doubling it to basically break the poverty trap. And most milk produced in
+
+[48:14] sub-Saharan Africa is by small hold dairy farmers who have 2, maybe 3 cows. Um, and they're not able to sell their milk before it spoils. And then even then, they don't capture a lot of the value. The dairy traders do who. I mean, theoretically all of the milk in Kenya is supposed to be pasteurized. In reality, 80% of the milk is purchased and sold and consumed raw. And actually, that's not strictly true because people don't drink raw
+
+[48:43] milk, they would all be dropping like flies because it is basically diluted shit.
+
+[48:47] I mean, the bacterial counts are fantastically, I mean, just mind-boggling numbers of over a 100000000
+
+[48:55] con- informing units per milliliter. So everyone boils the bejesus out of their milk. And as a result of this, they turn out, it turns out they like the flavor of boiled
+
+[49:03] milk where you and I might go, oh, that's a little kind of sweet tasting, not to, not to my liking. We used to fresh milk. Well, the insight that, um, I had was basically, why don't we, if they liked the flavor of boiled milk, why are we putting all this effort into cooling it down, why don't we basically collect the milk, bring it up to sous vide temperatures, uh, pasteurization
+
+[49:25] temperatures, because that's very easy to do in Africa, and then hold it hot for many days at a
+
+[49:29] time until it's sold? It's purchased hot, and then it can be used within several hours. So those you guys out there, listen, here's the thing, right? Boiling energy intensive, especially if taken from cold, right? So to cool down and then boil energy intensive. Heating it up to not as high a temperature, but keeping it
+
+[49:47] there, not as energy intensive. Right. And it's actually even more than that because what happens today is they transport the milk, it's chilled down, then it's heated up
+
+[49:55] again. Then it's chilled down again, and you have all these heating and cooling cycles, and then the problem is you've pasteurized it, now it has to be kept cold to be shipped around. And that's the real falling down. is it, forget even the total energy consumption. It's just not possible to ship it around cold, but if you have a very well insulated container, it's very easy to ship it around hot. And so now you don't have the temptation that the current traders have of, let me put formaldehyde in there. Let me put hydrogen peroxide in there to try to prevent my inventory from spoiling before I can sell it off. So how long can you hot hold? Um, we're actually working on finding out. I mean, you can hold indefinitely from a microbiological standpoint. Taste of from taste standpoint. That's going to be very subjective. To me, at 3 days, that's the upper limit. What about for the consumer there? Well, we're doing sensory studies right now to figure. It looks like at one in 2 days, almost everyone thinks the milk's fine. At 3 days, maybe 10% of people don't. It's going to fall off by some amount, and so probably the pricier milk commands falls off over a number of
+
+[50:51] days too. So the flavor profile, even though they're going to boil it when they get it. Yes. is different if it's been held hot for longer than about 3 days. You're essentially running, even though it's a very wet system over that duration of time, you get some mired reaction. So you actually get some caramel color form or in some of those flavors. Um, you know, the milk, yes, you've destroyed some of the micronutrients, but in fact, in Africa, the macronutrients is all you give a shit about.
+
+[51:18] Right. Now, one of the problems you were saying in this also is getting heat exchanges that don't foul up in the
+
+[51:24] field because you want this to be as simple as possible for the farmers to implement. It has to be incredibly low tech. It has to cost less than $200 to be a viable product. And how close are you to hitting that number? We're very close. We're expecting to be doing pilot studies in January in Kenya. Right. And so, now, just so you guys know out there, because this is another thing I hate, is, you know, you know, Chris has been involved in high tech cooking for a long time, and they say, you know, the stuff that you think about never has any kind of impact, and it is true that, you know, tend to focus, and the book focuses on things that are aimed at a high-end consumer, let's say.
+
+[52:01] But turning now the same, it's the same thought process. It's like here are the givens, here's what we're trying to achieve, right? Here's the problem. Here are the givens. What can we do with it? So it's the same kind of creative notion that can then be applied to this kind of a problem. And I think what's, you know, what's different about, uh, you know, what, at least my
+
+[52:22] impression, what's one of the things that's different about what Chris is doing here, uh, with the Gates Foundation, right? And Nathan, I guess. Yeah, it's intellectual ventures and the Gates Foundation. Uh, is that starts from a science perspective, but more importantly, from a cook, what tastes good? How can we make this milk taste the way that these guys want the milk to taste? Not how do I want the milk to taste or not, like how do I just make it safe? How do I make milk, that these guys want to drink, that also is economically viable for them,
+
+[52:51] and, and, and, and will also will also be safe. But the safety has to go with the, it tastes good to them. Yeah, it's very funny because in a lot of situations, people come in from the Western world and want to force a Western technology, a Western viewpoint onto them. But in fact, they don't like the flavor of our pasteurized milk, it's too bland to them, whereas we like that blandness. They don't like homogenized milk at all. too lean tasting. They want that rich, full fat taste you get of the raw, unhomogenized cream. And so everyone who's looked at this problem before is trying to say, well, here's how we do it in the
+
+[53:22] Western world. Let us show you how it's done. And we took a slightly different attitude of saying, well, that's not what they like anyway. So why don't we just try to figure out how to give them what they like and we just have this problem of preventing to the milk to spoil? You could do it cold, but why not do it hot? So what percentage do you think now if milk in Kenya just is unsalable because it goes bad? We think about 50% of the milk is lost to spoilage. Right. I think you said that before, but I just want to say it again. 50%, right? So and how big a number is that? Oh, uh, it would be, um, 100s of 1000000s close to 10000000s of liters probably annually. Right. And so that's how many... That's over the broader subs here in Africa. And if you if you remember, so it's 50% of the milk is going bad right now and is
+
+[54:05] unsalable, and that's about the number it would take, yield wise, double the current yield, i.e. not losing that 50% to get those farmers out of the poverty line.
+
+[54:14] So you're talking, this gets them to that place where they're no longer at the poverty line. I mean, this is part of a much broader initiative that the Gates Foundation has funded called the East African
+
+[54:23] dairy development. And the idea is that milk is a major product for people. It's a major source of nutrition. It's a source of actually drinkable water. And so we're hoping that this is one step in basically really solving some of the problems over there. Small differences may have a big impact. Alright, nice. I like that. So doing good work. Is that laser thing with the mosquitoes actually working or no? It is actually working. They were doing some testing of the kill laser last week, I believe. So this is basically, uh, like Ronald Reagan's anti-missile, Star Wars thing and it just shrunk by a couple orders of magnitude. Yep. quite literally. That's what it is, right? Yeah, the basic idea is that if you can, in a, say, around a village, reduce the mosquito population, by a significant
+
+[55:10] amount. Don't totally eradicate it, but reduce it, you can have a profound impact on how quickly malaria is transmitted.
+
+[55:15] So we decided to start shooting the lasers out of the sky with a laser. Yeah, it's crazy. I like that. It's crazy. It's Looney Tunes, but it does work. All right. So here's what's going to happen. I'm going to read a comment on candy about Nastasia, and Chris is going to comment on that. And while I'm doing this, I want him to think of something in cooking that he
+
+[55:33] hates and we'll end with something that he hates in cooking, right? You're gonna think about that? I read this? I'm going to think about that. All right, Andrew writes in. And he says he's also like to say that Andrew is totally with Nastasia on red, orange, and yellow candy being crap candy flavors. Artificial cherry. This is Andrew's words, not mine, is a vile abomination and Sully's cherry's very name. I mean, come on. If you can't make a flavor that is remotely like a delicious fresh cherry, Don't use it at all. As for oranges and lemons, they're just boring. With fantastic flavors that flavor houses producing candy manufacturers, they have no excuse to keep using these crap flavors.
+
+[56:07] Still, the worst candy flavor of all time is popcorn jelly beans. I can force myself to eat other distasteful flavors like artificial cherry, and in turn, increase my appreciation for the great flavors, but jelly belly popcorn goes straight in the trash. All right, any comments, pistasia? I agree. We have a caller, just later. Oh, really? All right. Chris is going to think about what he hates. and call her, you made it in just under the wire. Hi, my name is Jannani. And I have a question about hard boiling eggs, actually. I'm wondering if it's better to put the egg in when the water is so cold or to drop it in when it's hot. All right, listen, I'm going to have what I think, but I'm going to let Chris say what he thinks, and then we'll argue about. What do you think, Chris? Generally speaking, I like, so there's a pro and a conduit. I like putting it in cold because the egg doesn't tend to get the thermal shock and it doesn't tend to split on you. But it becomes a lot more difficult to time it just right because how long is it going to take that pot of water to get warm? And I've read studies that say it's harder to peel if you go from cold versus if you go in straight hot. But here's my thing. Are you timing your eggs very, very rigorously? No, I kind of just leave it and come back. Then go from cold. Then go from cold. Who cares? Yeah, I mean, look, these boiling water things, what they're doing is, is they are, they're getting a large, large pot of water boiling, and they're plunging enough eggs in there that the temperature never really drops appreciably below the
+
+[57:30] boil. And therefore, therefore, assuming you use the same size eggs all the time, you can get a very accurate temperature. If all you're concerned with is getting a hard-boiled egg and not turning green on the outside, then of the yolk, then I would just bring it to just below the boil, leave it covered and let it go back to
+
+[57:47] cold. It won't get, what do you think about this? I think that's fine, and I'm going to throw in one tip here. If you have a hard time peeling your hard-boiled eggs. Get yourself a blowtorch. If you hit the show with a blowtorch and then try to peel it, it's way easier. after it's pulled out, it's dry. After it's done cooking, after it's dry, you just go around basically hitting the surface of the blowtorch for an intense pulse of heat, not really enough to cook it, but that shell will come away much more easily.
+
+[58:13] Really? Nice. Well thanks for the call. Great, thank you. So, Chris, to take us on out of this. Give me something you hate. I hate, I hate the label of molecular gastromy, and I hate the parlor tricks that tend to come with it. Oh, yeah. Give me some more. For about 10 years, I've been associated with this kind of cooking, and I will go into restaurants to see lots of foams, lots of gels, and done well. These can be wonderful. They can be exciting, and they should exist. But 1st and foremost, it has to be good cooking. And I'm getting tired of going into restaurants where people figure out who I am and all of a sudden the gels start come flying out. So I despise that. Stop. Nice. Nice. And have you ever met someone who calls themselves a molecular
+
+[58:59] cook whose work you respect? Oh, going rough? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Don't use molecular gastronomy. Thanks, Chris Young. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[59:18] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. I don't know where I'm at. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[59:54] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[1:00:09] The Heritage Meat Shop has just opened in the Essex Street Market, open from 9 to 7 Monday through Saturday, and 10 to 6 on Sundays, the Heritage Meat Shop supports independent family farms and animal welfare
+
+[1:00:21] approved, and certified humane raising standards. Most importantly, they offer a wide variety of heritage breeds. So stop by, get a sandwich, try the charcuterie, the heritage meat shop at the Essex Street Market. The following is a message from Heritage Foods USA. 14 family farms in over 50 restaurants have committed to participation in no goat left behind, a new program developed by Heritage Foods USA, a meat distribution company dedicated to preserving endangered breeds.
+
+[1:00:48] Without an end market, the majority of male dairy goats are sold into the commodity market or killed at birth. Dairy farmers are always struggling with feed prices, milk prices and weather. Goats usually have twins or triplets, and for every female who will become a milker, There is a male buckling who will become a financial drain. It makes no sense that these males are sold into the commodity market or put to death. When the United States imports almost 50% of its annual goat supply. Home consumers interested in participating can order goats through heritagefoodsusa.com. They will receive goats via FedEx and home delivery is available for New York City customers. In addition to the goat, these packages will also include recipes and a DVD featuring interviews with the farmers,
+
+[1:01:28] processors, and chefs demonstrating how to break down and cook goat. Again, for more information on no goat left behind, visit www.heritagefoodsusa.com or call Aaron Fairbanks at 718-389-0985.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Join today in the studio, of course. As always, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? She's coming fresh off of looking at spaces for our new business, yeah? Yes. Anything good? Yeah, there are some great places, Dave. Really? Are you just saying that? No, it was awesome. She's got she's got a crazy she got a crazy, sarcastic look on her face, people. She thinks she can get away with like doing that without me making a comment on the radio. Warehouses? Windows? No. Why? When Nastasia's never worked in a place with Windows before. Have you ever worked in a place with Windows? Yeah, and jobs that paid me. Uh, so you want me to stop that check from coming to Scotches? Oh, hey, Drew, Drew Salmon from home of Funku Enterprises. If you're listening, please stop paying the stachi checks. I wasn't talking about Drew, I was talking about something else. Oh, okay. Oh, so you admit that Drew is paying you? Okay. But Nastasia doesn't like to work in any sort of room with windows. So if you have a maybe a subbasement for Nastasia to work
+
+[1:30] in anything, um, she has one other requirement besides the fact that it can't have any natural light, uh, it must also be extremely loud, right? There has to be a refrigerator working in it at all times. like a large one. It also has to be uncomfortably hot at all times. Hey, have you ever been to Patrick Martin's office? Yeah, yeah. And you have to have people try to store things in your office at any given moment. Large things. Yeah. That's what Nastasia likes. Anyway, calling all of your questions, cooking or uncooking related too. 718-497-2128. didn't memorize it. I have written down. That's 718-497-2128. All right. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Penantry. These guys love us, right, Jack? Yeah, we love them. Yeah, nice. Anyway, today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love the experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspin for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Nastasia hates to overspend. I do. Modern pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that makes sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time,
+
+[2:37] money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even peach modifiers. That means buffers, right? Buffers. PH modifiers or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with worldwide shipping. By the way, worldwide shipping. I was in Columbia, and apparently a lot of this, Columbia, the country, which, you know, I just got back again. So we'll talk about that maybe. These guys have trouble getting some of this stuff down there. They were telling me everything's really expensive. Like Miklu's really, really expensive. Jeland's really, really expensive. I don't know, maybe Chris ships down to Columbia. I don't know. That's Columbia with an O, by the way, not with a U. Okay, where was I? With worldwide shipping modern pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. This week, modernist pantry is introducing its perfected guargum. This exclusive formulation has advantages over traditional Guar. First, it is prehydrated which speeds the hydration while eliminating lumps. It also eliminates the need for slurries and premixes it and handles it with virtually no dust. Secondly, perfective guargum does not have the taste. It is typically associated with guar, which assures it will not intape the flavor of your recipes. Use perfected guargum as a one-to-one replacement for traditional guar. Fans with cooking issues that order $25 or more before the next week's show will get a free package of perfected guargum. Simply use the promo code CI, as in cooking issues, 57 when placing your online order at modernistpantry.com. Visit us visit modernistpantry.com today for all your modernist cooking needs. perfected Guargum, huh? So we use a kind of guar called TIC, flavor-free, NT, whatever it is, 4 billion,
+
+[4:08] whatever from TIC Gums, a.k.a. tick Gums. And we've used this kind of Guar for years. I don't know whether this perfected Guar is the same as the flavor free Guar, but I mean, tick, TIC. like they're like kind of like the leaders or at least the original kind of flavor-free
+
+[4:23] guar kind of a situation. Traditional guargum. If you've ever tasted traditional guargum. Guargum. Okay, so Guargum and locust bean gum are both derived from seeds and they're kind of, you know, they're fairly old, uh, you know, i.e. been around a long, long, long
+
+[4:37] time, uh, because basically they're seeds, they're ground seeds. Hydrocoloids. They are thickeners, not gelling agents. And uh, locust being gum, LBG for short. Locust bean gum has always been kind of, of the 2 kind of the, the,
+
+[4:52] the, older, more handsome, sexier, and like, you know, more successful brother, Taguar, because it like has a lot of
+
+[5:00] good, good properties, one of which is it doesn't taste like crap. Traditional guar tastes, it's beanie. It tastes almost like, um, oh, like black-eyed pea flour, something like that. It has that flavor that it's from like a ground up seed that, you know, is kind of hard to deal with them. People use guar a lot because guar is a lot cheaper than locust bean gum. The other thing that Guar does is that you don't have to heat it, you know, up over 70
+
+[5:26] Celsius like you do for locust bean gum to get it hydrated. So Guargum has advantages for monetarily for large producers, but it always had kind of a bad taste. It's typically used, you'll see Guar in ice creams, typically. ice creams are stabilized commercially, usually with carragin, and they use carragin, which is a
+
+[5:46] seaweed because it, it, uh, it's very, it has synergistic reactions with milk, so you only have to use a tiny amount of it to get the milk to gel properly. And when it gels up, that stops crystals from forming, which is why they use it. They use carrogen in to stop basically crystal formation. But then you have to add a 2nd thickener to the system to stop what's called way off where the liquid actually separates out from the wheat gel that's formed by the kerraginen. And that's what the locust bean or the guargums for. And typically they use guar because it's a lot cheaper. Um, The flavor free guar is awesome. Now, the stuff that they say is prehydrated, what that means when you prehydrate a gum, gums are typically difficult to hydrate because they swell in water and form
+
+[6:25] lumps. So you don't want lumps to form. And so half of using hydrocolloids, which are new age thickeners properly is figuring out how to hydrate them. So people like TIC gums and others do a thing called agglomeration where they take smaller particles that hydrate fairly
+
+[6:41] easily, and instead of packing them into just like a fine powder, they pre-agglomerate them into kind of these very coarse looking little, they look like miniature, they look
+
+[6:51] like, like, it has like a pilly look, as though it's like kind of microscopic grape nuts. You seen these before, noastasia, right? They have a weird kind of a texture to them. I typically, I don't have problems hydrating because we use Vitapreps, but this could be something useful if you don't have like a higher speed, higher speed mixer. I've never used prehydrated guar before. I don't really like prehydrated xanthan, by the way, which some people do, which is another kind of miracle thickener. Anywho, so what I use Guar for, Guar, is if you make an ice cream, you can go on, look up super stretchy ice cream, on cookingissues.com, and we make a super stretchy ice cream using Kelco gel, F, which is gelan, which is awesome because it forms a fluid gel, and it's also flameproof, but if you add Guar to it, it's a weird synergy that I don't, you know, I don't think I've never read about, other than our site, it forms a stretchy ice cream similar to
+
+[7:40] selecton derma, which is the Turkish orchid ice cream, but it has advantage. Turkish ice cream doesn't have is that you can light it on fire. Right? It's an advantage, lighting it on fire. Lighting on fire always an advantage. Anyway, so go on modernist pantry and get your guar. I love the word guar. I wish the band Guar would advertise for Guargum. They should. They should. Well, we should change the name of the gum to spell it the way Guar does. Is Guar still around, by the way? Yeah they are. Yeah? Nastasia, you're not that kind of a person. You never went to those kind of concerts, right? No. You're not you're not into that kind of decapitation rock. No. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, all right. So John S writes in, uh, and he says, uh, great show. Listen every week. He's called in once before. Hi, John. Yes. My wife and I, and three-year-old son are coming to New York from Wisconsin. My wife won a Penn American Bingham Prize for her novel, Stiltsville. Congratulations, wife. Uh, I looked, I looked up that novel and uh, it had like very, very good
+
+[8:37] ratings on the Amazon. I don't really read novels. Nastasia reads novels. I don't. I mean, it's one of my bad traits is that I don't read fiction. I basically only, I sit around constantly reading nonfiction typically about food occasionally about the Civil War or, you know, the CIA or something like that. But anyway, so they're staying in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, but still, by the way, weird. Still, do you know what Stillsville is? It's a community in outside of Miami, in Biscayne Bay. These, like, dudes, for some reason, I don't know why, they built houses in the bay on stilts.
+
+[9:09] They're like literally in the ocean, like in mud flats on stilts. And right now there's only 7 of these houses left because duh, they get wiped away by hurricanes because it's a wreaking hurricane country down there. So there's 7 left. They've been around, I think, since the 40s or something like that, 40s or 50s, and people are trying to save them anyway. Weird little. And apparently the novel is about the early days of Stiltsville. It's kind of a good word, though, still still. Anyway. So they'll be flying during the show, so they're actually in the air right now, or else he'd call it in. John says, I'm a tech nerd and a foodie, although I hate the word foodie. I hate the word foodie. Do you hate the word foodie mustache? Or it doesn't bother you? Is that one of those things that doesn't bother you? It doesn't bother. See, it doesn't, see, so basically, if you use any word substance, it will bother one of the 2 of us, but typically not both, right? So don't ever show Nastasia a leaf with a disease on it, for instance, because
+
+[9:56] that like totally or a foot with a disease on it. That's, you know, that's, you know, the thing is people can't help, but someday I hope Nastasia, not because I want you to have like a horrible foot, like skin problem, but just so that, like, it kicks you of the habit of worrying about it.
+
+[10:09] Like if you have some sort of a horrible foot problem, just for a day. No? hope I have it? Yeah, just for a day. Wouldn't that cure you of getting worried about it? Anyway. So, for me, for her, it's horrible. Like, skin is, all this kind of things just can't stand it. For me, it's the word foodie, and I'll tell you why. It's because it's it smacks of food faddism. It makes it seem like it's a fad as opposed to basically being a new,
+
+[10:33] you know, a way of dealing with with life and food. So, in fact, the term originally in the 80s was kind of like, just like yuppie, there was a book, you know, about foodies and it was making fun of it.
+
+[10:45] And, you know, basically saying, like, here's a bunch of people who, uh, you know, uh, I guess
+
+[10:51] they just mix it into a fad, a joke, people who don't, you know, who have nothing better to do, a
+
+[10:56] feed kind of, you know, just bad smacks of bad stuff, right? Anyway. And so it was kind of taken on by people who are interested in food is kind of a badge of honor, but I just think it trivializes the whole, the word foodie, I think,
+
+[11:08] trivializes, uh, caring about food. Anyway, that's just me. Anyway. Uh, so, uh, I'm a tech nerd and uh, I'll say food lover instead of foodie. And wonder if you have any recommendations for sites to see in New York this week. Unfortunately, we're financially constrained, uh, or else you'd go to per se or WD 50 and all that. And with our three-year-old in tow. And by the way, yes, it'd be difficult to go to, I guess people can go to per se with little kids, right? It depends on your kid. My kid, no. My 2 kids, they would take that restaurant apart. Right? Right? That would be it. Yes, we enjoyed Mario Batali's Italy. And by the way, we love Mario Batali at this week because he really was so good to us at the museum fundraiser last week or 2 weeks
+
+[11:52] ago or, you know, 8 years ago. When was it? Seems like last week, a week and a half, week and a half ago. When we visited last as an example of the type of thing we're interested in, the criteria we're looking for,
+
+[12:01] something food lover interesting that we can't get back home in the backwoods of Madison, Wisconsin, something that's not terribly
+
+[12:07] expensive, and is kid friendly-ish, like street food, cooking stores, restaurants, and tourist attractions. Well, listen, I don't I don't go out. So, uh, I'm kind of uh, I'm kind of bad. I'm going to pump my friends here. Schambar, is that really expensive? You can go to sambar at lunch and get all the duck stuff. That was good, right? Yeah, we had a really good meal there with the duck stuff. you know, I would do that. And the good thing about sambars, it's kind of loud enough such that the kids aren't going to really be a problem. Uh, you know, because no one's going to notice because it's loud. Um, for food shopping, I mean, go to DiPolo's on Grand Streets, like the greatest Italian, I love that store, go there. Uh, it's, uh, you know, you might have to wait a long time. So go at a point when there's not a lot of, you know, traffic or you're going to be waiting there a long time with your kid. My kids have taken that store apart, but they're very friendly. Try to get someone in the family to help you out because they know a lot or else Renee, who's really cool over there. Like, so Louis, Sal, Marie, Connie, or Renee. Anyway, go to DiPolo's treasure here. Uh, what about, uh, what is Chezre's place, uh, kid friendly? No? No? Salamari Rosi, not friendly. I mean, Otto's very kid friendly. Kids love it. You're like, kids, they love it. I don't have no idea. I don't have any. I mean, if tourist tracks, just walk across a broken bridge. awesome. Right? What about food? Anything, we'll think about it. And after the break, we'll give you some more stuff to do. Okay, here. Oh yeah, hell, you're going to be in Brooklyn. Come to Roberta's. Yeah, coming out to Roberta's. I see a three-year-old in front of me right now. I didn't want to say anything. Oh yeah. No, but seriously, we just got reviewed really well over here. There's some kids, like literally looking at a table filled with kids of all ages. I see like a, I see like a 0 year old, like a 3 year
+
+[13:55] old and a 5 year old with only 2 adults. I'm pretty sure the next project at Roberta's is going to be like a McDonald's playground in the
+
+[14:01] back for all the kids. I'm kidding, but there's a lot of kids here. kind of kidding. Listen, here's my here's my suggestions with Roberta. Come early. If you're going to come dinner time. Lunchtime is not a problem. If you're going to come for dinner, Jack, am I right or wrong here? Come early. Otherwise you're going to be waiting a long time. And it's going to be a lot louder. So what time do they have to get here, Jack? I'd say 7 is 6.37 o'clock? 630 or seven? That's a good time if you have a 3 year old anyway. And by the way, if you don't come to Roberta's. Don't call in again. Just kidding. But I'm not. Yeah, nostalgia pulling out, calling me a D bag on the air. Nice. Nice, nice. Okay, two. I've been making a lot of bread using the long rest method. Initially a recipe from the New York Times, Improved by Cooks Illustrated. It's definitely got the best texture with white flour, but I like to make it with half wheat flour. I assuming whole wheat flour. When I do this, the bread is less chewy, more cake like, and less toothy. The texture is just not as nice. Would adding wheat gluten as an ingredient help, how much any other suggestions? Okay, so assuming what we're talking about here is the recipe that's actually Jim
+
+[15:02] Lahey's from Sullivan Street, bakery, his recipe, which is kind of the no need recipe that became popular, I guess. Mark Bittman wrote about it when in like 2006 or 2007 or something like that. So Mark Bitman actually gets credited with this recipe. because when he wrote about it and the minimalist on the New York Times, it spread like wildfire across the
+
+[15:23] Internet. It was insane, crazy. Uh, just like uh, your buddy Lakey is. Nastasi worked for him for a little while, right? A week. A week. Yeah, a week before she came to work for a different kind of a lunatic than me. Anyway, so, uh, so anyway, so basically the Bitman writes about this, it goes, it goes completely viral, nutbag,
+
+[15:42] lunatics. It's everywhere. By the way, Lahey's bred here. If you've never been to New York, Sullivan Street bread, and it's various imitators and spawn, are fantastic. Fantastic bread. Really great bread. So anyhoo, so he writes a something, it goes nuts. In 2008 Cooks Illustrated. So that's why it gets credited to the New York Times, right? Even though he just came out with his book fairly recently, like a year ago, right? And his book, his basically book, what's editor is the same person who's going to be editing the, I'm going to write a book.
+
+[16:14] It's going to be writing that book. And so his book called, like, uh, it's called My Bread or something like that, or Bread My Way, or My Bread Your Way. Your Bread My Way. What is it? Anyway. So it's his book. But, like, uh, Maria Guarnicelli, who I'm working with, is a genius, complete genius, writes on the cover of this thing, no work, no work, no need, no work.
+
+[16:36] That book sold like, like, uh, wildfire for a bread book. It's a nice book. Anyway, so sells a Jillian copy. So this is an extremely popular technique. Cooks Illustrated in 2008, comes out with a book. Sorry, comes out with an article on it where they modify it slightly, and that was written by no relation to Nastasia Lopez. Kenji Alt Lopez, who used to be one of the main testers at and recipe writers at Cooks Illustrated before he moved on to internet stardom. So what the hell's going on here? So the basic thing with a no-need bread Lahey style is old school Lahey style is use a very small amount of yeast
+
+[17:14] and a very, very high hydration, right? So you're using a lot of water, uh, and, you know, per flour. Like, he's using his recipes are insane, like unhandleable, insane kind of hydration levels. Why? Because he's looking for these really big kind of bubbles. Now, these loaves won't really hold their shape in an oven if they're baked traditionally, but he doesn't bake it traditionally, because here's what he does. He has a very small amount of yeast and lets it rise for a very, very, with enough salt to make it taste good because that's a lot of recipe. People don't add enough salt. And then lets it rise for a very, very long time, like 12, 14 hours or more. After which they, he, you know, takes it out, covers it in flour, and lets it,
+
+[17:52] you know, just moves it around a little bit in a bunch of flour to add some sort of structure to the dough. Otherwise, there'll be no structure, and then, um, lets it rise again in a heavily flowered cloth, and then throws it into a preheated
+
+[18:07] uh, Dutch oven. And that does 2 things. It holds the shape of the bread, and it traps in the steam, and so it gives you a really nice crust. Now, I have not baked this way, by the way. So this is all just based on like my knowledge of talking to everyone in the universe who does it this way. This is not the way I do it. Anyway. Everyone likes it. McGee wrote an article in New York Times on this technique where he says, yes, it makes really good bread. McGee's knock on the whole thing isn't that the bread's not good is that the bread's all very similar. It's very similar kind of open, coarse. Uh, you know, textured, like large bubble crumb, which is what people are shooting for. People like that. as opposed to the heavily needed, you know, less risen breads that had typically have a denser crumb. anyway. So the technique is predicated, one, on his high hydration, which is going to make very big open bubbles. Two, on the cooking technique, which is going to generate a nice crumb and have, you know, produce a lot of steam. And 3 on the long rise time. And what the long rise time is doing is 2 things. One, people say it minimizes the taste of the actual yeast that you're adding, right? And two, it'll, when the yeast is acting over a longer period of time, it's supposed to make more complex flavors, including acids, like acetic acid, and all sorts of different, wonderful flavors, and also modifying the texture of the dough somewhat by the
+
+[19:20] long, by the long resting. In addition, you don't need the need if you're going to let it rise for a long time because kneading is essentially the process of hydrating the
+
+[19:28] gluten and providing structure for the gluten. The gluten will form its own structure, the theory goes, if you just let it rise for a long
+
+[19:34] time, and let it develop for a long time. So the kneading becomes inconsequential. And in fact, you can't need dough with as high hydration as the stuff that Tim Lahey is using. And so you have, therefore, you have no need, no work bread. It just takes long time. So now people, the cooks illustrated, Kenji Alt was like, I don't want to wait this long for my no need bread. So what does he do? Kenji all ups the yeast content. Ups the hydration, upstate. sorry, lowers the hydration somewhat to make a dough easier to handle, needs it for like 15 seconds. My my guess is to help the structure development early on because he's not going to rise as long, right? So he needs to move it around a little more, help the hydration a little more. And two, he cheats a little bit by adding beer and
+
+[20:16] vinegar, and the beer and the vinegar are there to fake the flavor of a long fermentation. So it's basically, let's fake the flavor of the long fermentation, and try to get something done quicker. And so that's the Cooks Illustrated, you know, short need, like 15, 20 seconds or, you know, minute need
+
+[20:37] bread that is also, it's not, but it's not nearly as high hydration. So this is what we're talking about. That was a long explanation for what the hell we're talking about. But what if you didn't know what we're talking about? Then you wouldn't know what we're talking about. So then he's saying, you know, the question here is, if you're making it with wheat flour, it doesn't work as well. What's the problem? First of all, wheat flour is going to require a higher hydration. So if you're doing the Cook's Illustrated recipe, which is a lower hydration bread, you're going to need to add more hydration to get your wheat flour to act the same way.
+
+[21:04] Secondly, wheat flour probably needs to develop longer. 1st of all, it's just never going to, whole wheat flour is just never going to get the same texture. The kind of whole wheat flour you're using. If you want a really nice texture with a whole wheat flour because it's, I don't know, the way it's ground. Used like chapati flour, like chapati flour is amazing stuff. Keep it in the freezer because it always has bug problems. But, like, uh, locks me brand, chapati flour, uh, I use that for pancakes and whatnot. So if you're having the problem that the bran is too coarse and it's actually, uh, affecting the texture of your of your, um, bread, move to a different kind of uh, whole wheat flour and see whether that helps you
+
+[21:37] out. I've never added I mean, I have added wheat gluten to whole wheat breads, but it's, you know, like decades ago, and so I don't remember exactly what the
+
+[21:44] things I used to dope it in, uh, all the time, adding wheat gluten. I mean, add like a, you know, a percent or 2 of a vital week gluten. It might help out, but I would up the hydration a little bit. And I go back to doing a longer rise. is what is what I would do. In fact, McGee in his article says, uh, some wet does can still benefit from kneading, and one is whole wheat dough, um,
+
+[22:06] because, uh, whole, he, this is McGee quoting, whole grains tend to absorb more water and produce weaker gluten networks. I found that kneading, as the recipe directs, gives a lighter, loftier loaf. All right. So, uh, that's that. Although I will say that I do, although I haven't baked bread a lot in a long
+
+[22:23] time. do a lot of pizza. And my, uh, my pizza for a lot. I always rise my pizza overnight, always. I used to do a technique. I've moved to a less work technique now. I used to make a what's, you know, like, what do they call it? biga, whatever. I do 100% water, and I mean, 100% water and flour, equal ratios, add the yeast, let it rise 2
+
+[22:43] times. I let it rise up and then beat and then add the extra flour and then let retard that. It's called retarding. In the in the fridge, basically, until the next day, the pizza's always been great. But now I was talking to Michael, sorry, Matthew Palambino, who has Motorina Pizza, also here in Brooklyn, which apparently is like some great pizza. I haven't had it. In fact, I haven't had it, but I can guarantee his pizza is good because the guys had the, got the right attitude about cooking. Uh, you know, I spent some time with him and he's, uh, I mean, to go, we should go there and have this pizza. Check out Motorino. But, uh, you know, Charlie Trotter once said, uh, that you could review a restaurant just by looking at its floor because he's a neat
+
+[23:18] freak. Not crazy. can't review a restaurant by looking at its floor, but I can kind of review a chef by talking with him and seeing
+
+[23:25] with their attitude and Matthew Palambino, even though he's Belgian and work for Laurent Turnendel, he has the right kind of like demented mental attitude to kind of get it right.
+
+[23:35] Like, he's quality obsessed in fact. In fact, he has kind of a big, we'd already talked about this in a show. He has a big brother kind of a thing with the camera where he can look at anyone's pizza as it goes out, even if he's
+
+[23:46] in, like, uh, he's in an, I was in an airport in JFK with him, and we're flying and he looks at his iPhone and looks up the pizza that was being produced at the restaurant at that moment, calls up and just starts yelling at the person who's making the
+
+[24:00] pizza. Yeah, so this, like, I love that. That's hardcore. And that guy, that guy's knows what's up. So we got to go we got to go check that guy out. Anyway, I'll give you one more thing on pizza. Because, you know, my oven gets up to 850 degrees because I've modified it into a pizza oven, so it makes a really good pizza. Oh, and when you're going to make pizza dough, like if you want a higher hydration, you're going to get that softer, more Neapolitan feel. Where if you go for a lower hydration, you're going to get more of that kind of American feel. And I don't really think there's ones better than the other. I don't look, I like a Neapolitan style pizza, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. I think whatever you want to eat at the time is the best one, right? And one last thing on pizza before we go to our 1st break. I'm going to give you a secret. When I was building my current apartment, before I had the oven in there, we used to order pizza a
+
+[24:40] lot, and we'd order it from a place here in New York City called Lombardi's, which is a well-known co-fired pizza. Problem is, is the crust from Lombardi's is always soggy and it's not a high hydration. So it shouldn't be kind of floppy, soggy, but it is when it comes from the thing, even though it's a good tasting pizza. So here's a secret for you. Take a blowtorch. Turn your pizza upside down, right, on a platter, and blow torch the crust until it gets, until it gets crunchy again. Now, blowtorches I don't typically like because blowtorches, um, they, if there's any fat, they pick up the kind of torch taste, but there's very little fat on the bottom of a pizza.
+
+[25:15] So it tends not to pick up torch taste out of it. So just torch the bottom of the pizza with a blowtorch until it crunches up again, flip it, melt the cheese, you can do it with a torch,
+
+[25:26] but, you know, you know, better if you don't because the cheese is fatty. But anyway. And so that's my reheating technique to get delicious, crunchy pizza. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break and we'll come back, cooking your shoes.
+
+[25:49] I seen your picture. You're naming lots above it. This is your big danger. It's like a dream country.
+
+[26:08] So won't you smile for him? I know they're gonna love it. I like your big shot I keep it with your metal. Gone up in blue, blue, blue. Sure, what's good on now? And when you smile for a camera. I know I love you better. Come back to you. Hey, come back to you. You see it all away. It's your favorite. And welcome back to cooking issues, calling all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. At 718-497-2128. You got to be a little more mellow with that music in the back, right? If it was up to us, we'd play Steely Dan all the time every time. Really? Oh, yeah. Is that your, that's your, that's your, that's your house jam? Oh, yeah. House jam. Okay, so, I guess we'll start the 2nd segment with a shout out from Adam, who we
+
+[27:25] met in person at the Star Chefs International Chefs Congress, not to be confused with the ICC, the International Culinary Center. What kind of a cluster. You know what that is, that they're both named the same thing. Anyhoo, he says, what? Okay. He says, hey, Dave and Nastasia, I hope you all know how much I and the rest of the silent listeners appreciate what you're doing.
+
+[27:43] Cheers, Adam. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. Although don't be silent. Call in your questions too, 718. Oh my god, I forgot everybody. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay. Uh, now, got a question in, uh, saying, do, do, do, do. gotta get to it. Uh, You speak often about how you use your immersion circulator a lot at home. I built one and it works great kudos for building one. But I found that a lot of good quick family meals. I have not found a lot of good quick family meals, which would use it. Can you give us some examples of where you find it useful at home. I've done chicken breast, which was decent, if bland, and the fish,
+
+[28:21] tilapia, I did was just plain, bland, and boring. Well, you're lucky if tilapia all it is is bland and boring. I mean, tilapia is the fish where, you know, the best thing you can say about it is that it has no flavor, right? If like any flavor that it has is going to be bad. You know what I mean? So, you know, I would stay away from tilapia if you can. I mean, I guess it's farmed and sustainable, nonsense. Anyway, any specifics would be nice. What to add to the bag for flavorings, time, temperature estimates, et cetera. Perhaps a recommendation for prep and freeze in the bag applications for quick weekend night meals. Okay. Um, now, it is true that uh, the circulator doesn't really excel at speed. That's not really what it's what it's best for. Um, you know, I use it in the house most often for just unattended cooking. The thing I do most often in the house is steaks, right? So when I'm cooking for my family, I use a circulator for steaks all the
+
+[29:16] time, and that's, you know, I think I've said it like a 1000000 times here before, but the recipe
+
+[29:21] is stupidly simple. I sear it. Uh, I, with, uh, I put salt and pepper on it because I'm gonna serve it, you know, pretty soon after I cook it, like within a couple of hours. So if you don't salt it, if you're not going to cook it right away. Put it, I melt butter and garlic, chopped garlic, melt it in butter in the nuke, pour it into the Ziploc bag, put it in the steak, seal it underwater, which there's instructions for on cookingissues.com.
+
+[29:47] And I throw it in the circulator and then let it rise for anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half and then whenever I finally get the kids
+
+[29:54] round it up. Uh, I flash it off in a super hot uh, pan uh, and send it out and it's delicious and not bland because it's been seared twists. Oh, yes, and I use the butter with the garlic in it to make garlic bread. So this is my kid's favorite meal that I make for them. Other things, like, for instance, if I'm going to do a party. Uh, if I'm gonna do a party, uh, then I'll do hamburgers in the circulator, right?
+
+[30:19] Like kind of like I did for the eater piece. Uh, but usually smaller. Uh, because it allows me to do all my work beforehand and then get the burgers out perfectly
+
+[30:28] uh, during the party. But if I cook burgers for home, I typically don't do it in a
+
+[30:34] circulator because it's not, it's like the workflow is not the same. I just make a different kind of burger. So when I make burgers at home, I'll make a thinner burger, which can be cooked more traditionally. Um, instead of the kind of burgers I'm making, a circulator, you know, like eggs. If I'm going to poach eggs, if I'm going to do 10 people and are coming over, you know,
+
+[30:52] and I'm going to cook a bunch of eggs, say 20? Hell, do it in a circulator. But, you know, if I have to cook like 2 or 3 eggs and I got to do it right now, I don't use a circulator. So it's not typically something I do for hyper quick kind of meals. If you're gonna have the things set up all the time, like on a counter, in a water bath, you know, then you can kind of use it to better effect.
+
+[31:11] And it is really good for reheating things that are in the or
+
+[31:15] rethermalizing things rather that are in the freezer so you can have something in a bag and you can rethermalize it in a circulator fairly effectively. But again, it's not the quickest thing in the world. So it's really good for pre-prep stuff. I'll try to think more about that. Anyway, we have a caller, caller. You are on the air. Awesome. Hey, I am hoping you can help me. I am wondering how to cook a goat head. Um, it's kind of scary looking and I don't know, can I eat the brains? Can I, what do I do with it? All right, go ahead. Very good. So I used to eat as a child, lamb's head quite a bit. I haven't done a lot with goat's head, but they're very similar. I mean, I doubt you can even tell them apart once they've, you know, been killed in skin and whatnot. Um, you look, the brain is delicious. I'm not going to lie. The brain's delicious. I don't tend to eat um, brains anymore since um, Mad Cow came out and like all the, you know, all the new sponge of form encephalopathies have come out because I just don't know when the next one is going to happen.
+
+[32:15] You know, so I tend not to eat brain tissue anymore even though I find it delicious. I don't know whether I'm just being overly reactive, but the problem is, is that you don't know for 10 years that there's been a problem. And you know what I'm saying? So I tend to stay away from brains, although there, to be clear, there have been no cases I know
+
+[32:31] of of anyone ever human ever getting a disease from eating a goat or a lamb's
+
+[32:37] brain, as far as I, as far as I know, never. I mean, cow brain, yes. No one has even really traced like elk, like elk. You know, they have a thing called chronic wasting disease out in Wyoming. And so in Montana. So if you, those elk, uh, they can pass this between each other and then they get basically a similar variant to a MagCal, which is basically a variant of
+
+[32:57] Jakobs Kreutschfeld, a brain eating disease. And so, anyway, that apparently hasn't jumped human either. So, you know, I just tend I, I, well, I'm not telling you to be scared. I'm just telling you that like, you know, the problem is, is that after all that, I look at the brain, it's not as appetizing as it used to be. You know what I mean? Look, my favorite part of the head is like the tongue and the nasal passages. They're delicious. Now, you can, a couple of ways you could do the head. Like, one of the classic ways is to kind of, like, take a flavorful broth or stock and kind of poach it and simmer it in that until the meat falls off and then rip it up and make like a, you can make like a testa out of it or something like
+
+[33:33] that the same way that you would for, uh, same way you would for a pig's head, right? But good old-fashioned way is just roast it, you know, split it in half and roast it and then eat all
+
+[33:45] all of the parts out. Yeah, people like, here's the other thing, right? People like their, oh, the eyes, eyes really aren't that delicious. I just don't think they're delicious. I mean, I have no problem eating them. I just don't think that they taste that great. You know what I mean? What about you, Nastasia? You haven't tried it? I thought we had this discussion. Maybe someone else had discussion with. But it's, so let me see, what the way we used to do. We used to just, I mean, I was a kid before I was tech, you know, we would just roast a sucker in the oven, and I think they served it with a tomato sauce. I'm not sure. They call it cup of sale, but it was lamb's head. Uh, and uh, delicious. Like all the meat and the nasal, anything, basically. Or the most effective way. And if you don't want, look, it depends on whether you want to freak out your guests. Like if your guests are like old school Italians from the north end of Boston, then they won't be freaked out because just tell them it's a
+
+[34:26] lamb's head instead of a goat head. But, you know, if you're, if the people you're going to be eating with are going to be freaked out, I would pick the meat off and then, and then make it into something, but all that stuff's delicious. The tongue, the, you know, the texture is different. The great thing about meat in the head is that you have all these various textures, you have the textures that come out of the cheeks, you have the textures and the nasal passages, you have the textures in
+
+[34:45] the in the tongue. Uh, again, if eyes, if you, if you like it, and brain, if you're willing to eat it, uh, is all good. Awesome. Yeah? I mean, if you have a circulator, I'm sure you could circulate. I sure it'd be delicious. I've never actually done it. I've only ever done traditional cooking techniques on it. Okay, awesome. Tell you, right in. Tell us how it worked. I love an old school. I've cooked a lamb's head in many, many years. Actually, that's not true. I cooked one in Italy 2 years ago or 3 years ago, but I forget how he cooked it. I might not have cooked that. I might have just butchered it. They taught me how to, when I was in Italy last, they taught me how to split a lamb's head without a saw just using a knife. It's too long to go into now, but the secret is basically, is gross, but you use the eye sockets as handles to hold
+
+[35:27] it so it doesn't slip around as you're smashing a knife through it and splitting it in half. Ugh. I think my head's already cut in half. Very good. Skip that. Very good, very good. So I won't go into it, but maybe I'll try and remember. try to go get the video of how you do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in. you. All right. So, uh, Michael writes in with a couple of questions. He enjoys our show, Nastasia. Thanks us for doing it. Here's a pretty basic question. I was hoping you could answer. I've always heard that you should heat your pan before adding oil. And similarly, I've always heard that you should heat your oil in the pan before adding food. Are there any good reasons for this? I've often broken both of these rules and have not noticed any negative effects. Okay. So, what's going on here is pretty simple. Most of the time, when you want to get your pan hot for searing or something like that, the idea of it is, is to get a lot of energy stored in the pan, such that when you put your food on it, right?
+
+[36:29] It can put a big wallop into it. Uh, and and and give it a nice good sear. Now, most of those searing things, you know, in order to store enough heat into in the pan to get it to work properly, you would have to heat it to a point where the oil would completely degrade and start smoking and have a lot of
+
+[36:51] problems. So to get around that, you heat the pan up to a ridiculous
+
+[36:57] amount and then you add the meat and the meat, you know, drops the temperature of the oil and the pan down to a thing, but you have that wallop of heat.
+
+[37:06] That why they tell you to do it. So if you're not looking to get a very quick, fast crust, then there's really not necessarily a reason to do it. Similarly with the oil, if you don't want to cook for a long time, you want everything to be smoking hot, you do everything
+
+[37:19] at a very hot temperature. So when I'm doing low temperature cooking, I'll 10, if I'm using a cast iron pan, I'll heat the cast iron pan for a long time because it stores a lot of
+
+[37:28] heat, even though it doesn't deliver it necessarily as quickly. And I'll preheat the oil in a side pan up to just below its kind of smoking temperature. Then I'll dump the oil into the cast iron pan and immediately wants to light on fire. So I throw the steak into it and steer it very quickly, and that's because I want to get it crust very, very quickly on it. So if that's not what you're looking for, there's no real reason to do it. You know what I mean? That makes sense since that show or no? Okay. Also, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the Komodo or Mushi Komodo, I guess, style of grill. I'm considering purchasing one since you can do everything from high heat grilling to controlled low temperature cooking. Use it as an oven, a kind of tandor, etc. Are they worth the money in your opinion? Okay, so what we're talking about is these ceramic egg shaped grills. Was that sneeze? Bless you. Uh, these ceramic... I never say that. This is an honest to God sneeze. It's an honesty God sneeze. Look, it's a long-standing joke with me that the 1st time you sneeze, I say bless you. The 2nd time, maybe bless you, the 3rd time. Shut up, shut up with the sneezing. you know, go blow your nose or something, which is a mean thing to say. And I always say it as a joke because I go into sneezing fits. Can you ever go into a sneezing fit? Where you sneeze constantly and then like you, like someone's trying to talk to you and you're like,
+
+[38:46] like you're trying to hold, anyway, whatever. Anyway. So I, you know, she makes me out to be such a meanie. It's really not the case. Anyway, so ceramic grills, they're kind of egg shaped, uh,
+
+[38:57] and uh, and basically you load them with coal in the bottom, and they have damper in the bottom, so you can open them up, and they light fairly quickly because they're chimney shaped, so you get good
+
+[39:07] air draw through them, and people like them. So big, big, uh, what's it called? Big green egg is one of them. Primo grill is another one of them. The commado, or come out, whatever they are, based on a Japanese style shape is one of them. And I've never actually used one. They are not cheap. They're like six, 700 bucks, but their main thing, like a tandor, which actually I do have some experience with, because like I said, we built one for the shoot we did with Anthony
+
+[39:31] Bourdain, and I actually loved cooking in it because it takes a relatively small amount of fuel, and these to have the same benefit. It takes a relatively small amount of fuel and can make a very, very high heat and can make a fairly low heat. The other great thing about the ceramics is it tends to stabilize over time. So if you're going to do like a long cook. It stores heat, you know, fairly well, and radiates it back, giving like a nice, even heat, you have to choose. Now the thing is, it doesn't move very quickly in either direction. It took me a while to get it stabilized, but the coals are going to light fairly quickly because you have this rush of air coming in and then going up like a chimney. You can use a fairly small amount because it's all concentrated. It doesn't like spread out over a huge area, like kind of an unenclosed grill is. It keeps most of the heat internalized into the oven and then shoots it out of the top, which is why when you're learning to put it in tandor, you can burn the hell out of your hands. These, unlike a tandor, have a grill in the top so that you can grill like a normal human being, although I assume you
+
+[40:21] could take it out and use it like a tandor if you wanted to. anyway. So the, so I, you know, have people seem to love them. People who use them, they seem to love them. I've never used them. I'd like to have one and I would probably use it half as a tandor and half as something else. Um, So I wish I could say it had a lot of experience. Anyway, um, do you think I answered that enough there in Sasha? I mean, I have a lot of information on it, but just not enough of my own
+
+[40:49] personal, personal experience, but like I say, people seem to love them. I would love to have one. Anyway. I mean, I live in New York, so I can't really like. The last time I lit a charcoal fire in my house, it almost got me divorced. So I probably won't be experimenting with that anytime soon. Okay. So on the way out, again, as I said, I came back from Columbia, haven't
+
+[41:09] been, I've never been to South America before. Now I'm like, I go there every freaking week, it seems like. It feels like it anyway. So I got back from Colombia, and this time I got to do what I wanted to do before, but didn't, which is make a rapid infusion, an ISI rapid infusion of fresh coca leaves, which are legal down
+
+[41:25] there when they're used as tea. Obviously, it's illegal to have coca paste, which they make into cocaine, and obviously cocaine is illegal, but coca leaves are. Uh, and so I did a rapid infusion of pisco and coca. And I'm here to tell you, like, it's a weird thing. Maybe someday we'll get into the politics of it, but it's so weird that so much misery is caused by this
+
+[41:44] leaf that they grow down there. But the rapid infusion I made was delicious. I made that. People went crazy and then I went outside and bought myself a plate of capybearer meat. So it's capybara and coca, maybe someday I'll blog about it. If I ever get around to writing again. Cooking issues.
+
+[42:09] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner And I don't know where I'm at. supposed to meet my baby.
+
+[42:36] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[42:52] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Today, we'd like to send a special thank you to the following restaurants for supporting No Goat left behind. Sambar and Maapesh. Show your support at these restaurants by ordering one of the menu items featuring Goat. Goat is the most eaten protein in the entire world, yet in the US, we import most of our goat. Our dairy farms are forced to kill some male goats at birth because there's no market for them. Help make a change, support no goat left behind. The following message has been brought to you by Taste Brooklyn. Our city's finest chefs partner with farmers and local vineyards next to the green market for an extraordinary outdoor culinary festival.
+
+[43:44] Try exquisite delicacies using locally grown seasonal delights on the plaza outside
+
+[43:49] Brooklyn's Borough Hall. Top chefs and artisans will offer sumptuous fare paired with premium wines. All to empower our neediest children to get help. The mighty FDNY and DSNY harbor their own culinary masters in uniform. They will cook off against the pros. Sample delicious cuisine without stressing over a reservation while supporting a worthy cause. Taste Brooklyn's field to fork outdoor culinary festival, Saturday, October 15th, 2011, from 1130 a.m. to 3 p.m. Learn more and buy tickets at tastesofbrooklyn.blogspot.com. That's T-A-S-T-E-S-O-F Brooklyn.blogspot.com.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:19] Fishes, fish. Hello? Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 broadcasting live from the backyard of Roberta's Pizzeria inside of a cut up old container can. Joined, as usual in the studio today with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Check this out, people. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. The 1st episode of cooking issues where I have memorized the telephone number. How do you like that? Nice. I was thinking about it on my crazy bike right over here. I managed, even though I'm a little late, you know, I managed to bike here from my house in 15 minutes flat. which is why when I show up sometimes you hear me at the beginning of the show and I'm coughing up a lung. because I'm an out of shape 40-year-old guy, biking from Manhattan to Brooklyn in 15 minutes, right? No comment from the nastasia. Today's show, episode 58, by the way. is brought to you again by the modernist pantry. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspin for pounds
+
+[1:37] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has the solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cooker enthusiasts, and most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space.
+
+[1:51] Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask, Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. And it's true. They actually, they source the Pectonex like on one week's notice for us. true, right? Where was I? You know, because I'm reading this, folks. This doesn't come out of the top of my head. Chris Anderson, his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, hear
+
+[2:16] that, Colombian Brazil, with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries gelatin sheets in both silver and gold strength. Many professional chefs prefer sheet or leaf gelatin over the powdered variety for its clarity, clean taste, and ease of use, although I like powdered for when
+
+[2:32] I'm when I'm doing things like, uh, uh, clarification because it's easier to measure out in smaller
+
+[2:38] quantities. You know what I mean? powder, it's a powder. leaf, you have to cut up the leaf and anything. Although, you know, when I'm using whole leaves for like standard operations. I usually use the leaf gelatin because I prefer it, but for ease of use
+
+[2:49] and hydro recipes, I often use powdered. And Knox brand, by the way, gelatin is fairly good quality. It's like equivalent, I think, to gold or even higher. Anyway, whatever. If your recipe calls for gelatin, give sheet gelatin a try. Vans of cooking issues at place in order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of 160 bloom sheet gelatin. Simply use the promo code CI 58. That's cooking issues 58 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit us, visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking meats. How was that? Good? Okay. So, remember, though, calling your questions because we would appreciate calling questions, we enjoy them too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. All right. Now, uh, anything interesting happened this week, Nastasia? Do we do anything? I felt like we did a lot. Into the farm? Oh, yeah, this weekend we went to Cesare Casella, one of our
+
+[3:42] good friends, favorite Italian and any kind of chef. Very good host. invited herself to a farm. that he has, what do we call it, like a partnership with? So the farm specializes. It's part of this Center for Discovery and the Discovery School, which is this great place in Sullivan County that it's basically a residence school slash place,
+
+[4:06] home, really, for people who are either severely autistic or multiply
+
+[4:11] disabled and basically need a constant amount of support. And one of the initiatives they have, uh, from a therapeutic standpoint, is a farm where they, Cesare grows his king into cattle there, which
+
+[4:22] are which are fantastic, but they also have sheep, goats, chickens, uh,
+
+[4:27] pigs. They're starting a dairy, and they grow a lot of their own vegetables. And so the idea being that, and Cesare got involved as a place for his cows, but also he's helping them ensure that the food that everyone there
+
+[4:39] eats is a very, very high quality. The idea being that, the better the quality of food you eat, the better your life is. We certainly agree with that, right, nostasia? Yeah. So every year he has a fundraiser with a bunch of chefs. Mark Ladner from Del Posto, you know, Kevin Garcia, who else was there? Our own Marco from Roberto's was there. Marco Jesus Christ, Carlo. I call him that because someone there called him Marco and it sounded, oh, Jesus Christ. Carlo. Nastasia's giving me the squinky eye. All right, all right, come on. Anyway, who else? Who else was there? John Frazier? Oh, yeah, John Frazier was there. I feel like I'm missing a whole slew of people. I am. Anyway, it doesn't matter. anyway, it was a great event. Raised a lot of money for a good cause. I made a cocktail. It was a caraway mint julep, which I think we've mentioned on this on the air before the idea that spearmint and caraway. They was Dave's brothers. The chemical that makes them that makes them taste unique. The 2 chemicals and mirror images of each other. They're isomers. Anyway, Carvone is the chemical. So we call the drink. Tony Carvone, and we do it in a bunch of different varieties. This was a julep, carvone. We've done other kinds of carbones. Uh, uh, we, I like them. You like them? A lot of people are like, can we, me, me. You know, listen. If I if you come to an event that I'm working or anyone's working. If someone's making a cocktail, like, 1st of all, 9 times out of 10, the people who are running the
+
+[6:03] event, don't give water to the cocktail guy. So don't walk up to the cocktail guy and ask the cocktail guy for
+
+[6:09] water because odds are they don't have it, right, Nastasia? They don't have it. They just don't have it. Go to the wine station usually has it, right? Or there's usually a water station or something, but usually the cocktail guy, they barely gave that guy ice. They didn't even give him bar towels. He's wiping his hands off on his pants, right? Pretty much. Anyway. Another thing, don't just ask for a pour of the straight liquor unless you order the cocktail too. If you say, hey, can I have a pour of the straight liquor, they really, they don't like you anymore. They don't, right? Yeah. So just get the cocktail. Look, it's a sunk cost, right? It's not like they're going to charge you extra for the cocktail at the event. Just get the dang cocktail. And if you don't like it, put it down somewhere and then say, this is what you say. I enjoy the cocktail. Can I just have a shot of the straight liquor and then they won't dislike you, right? Yeah. Anyway. So, and it's like anything. When you choose a cocktail like caraway that is a polarizing thing, which I should never do, I should only choose kind of slam dunk ingredients. The people who like caraway came back for like a bajillion of them, right? We had a bunch of many multiple takers on that. Steepy Semi seemed to enjoy the cocktail show. He was at the event. But then, you know, a bunch of people just won't even try it. It's a real heartache when you do polarizing ingredients. Anyway, a good time was had by all, especially my kids who got to milk a cow. Um, Nastasia, did you go milk the cow? No, I was making the cocktail. You're not making the cocktail. You were picking mint. making the cocktail. You were picking mint. See, I demand accuracy from everyone I work with, right? True. True, accuracy. Anyway. Uh, this is interesting. And this has never before happened. We have, uh, the identical questioning from 2 different uh, listeners. One, Johnny Hunter, and the other, and I have to scroll down because they're not in the same one. Uh, Sam Kanson, um, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Nav, Ben. Banana. Okay, I don't know whether they know each other. But I'll read them both. The 2nd one from Sam is, how would one go about making a bagel cocktail? Obviously, the major challenge is transferring the base wheat bagel flavor into alcohol form, after which one would season with sesame poppy,
+
+[8:21] onion salt, or whatever their personal bagel preferences might be. Um, And then, uh, on a very similar note, from Johnny,
+
+[8:30] I am trying to make a bagel flavored cocktail, and I was wondering if you have some tips
+
+[8:34] onto, uh, how to achieve something of a bagel flavor in the cocktail. I was thinking of using a sesame bagel, toasting slices of it and infusing it into a
+
+[8:41] malt-based liquor, and then adding in other flavors. Any ideas you have would be great. That's so freaking random. You think those guys know each other? No. Really? Is this just like the, like the, the week of the bagel cocktail or like the, it's like the bagel cocktail revolution? Well, uh, I will say that I have uh, never made a bagel cocktail before. We did do a burrito cocktail once. Remember that? It was disgusting. Yeah, it grew gross. incredibly bad. We took a I took a chipotle brand. This was as a joke, by the way. I wasn't intending to service, a Chipotle brand, I believe it was a bean burrito. blended it in a high-speed blender with beer, Chang beer, actually. And then Centrifugia, to get the solids out, and then chilled, got rid of the fat and recarbonated it. And it tasted like a subway Italian BMT sandwich, I believe, is what we decided it tasted like. It was awful. didn't have it. You were busy off sulking somewhere, sulking. Yeah, it was for a pilot we did for some stoner thing. Anyway, I think I might have mentioned in the year before. But bagels I haven't done. However, there is a lot of experience in the bartending and in the food world with bread and cereal infused liquids.
+
+[9:51] So, uh, Sam Mason and, uh, you know, was famous for his
+
+[9:55] cornbread, ice cream where he would soak cornbread and milk, I think, and then uh, and then used the milk for ice cream. Um, Christina Tozi does uh, a lot of cereal based uh, ice creams. She soaks cereal in the milk and then uses the milk to make ice cream, milk and cream. The closest in a cocktail world that I remember is Eben Freeman had a well-known pumpernickel, uh, pumpernickel raisin scotch, where what he would do is he would slice the pumpernickel raisin bread very thin,
+
+[10:24] Lee. then he would toast it and he would put it into scotch in a basically a mason jar.
+
+[10:29] And then after several days, he would decant it, and I assume, squeeze out the bread to recover the excess. Otherwise he'd be a wasteful, wasteful bastard. Maybe he was a wasteful bastard. I don't know. But, um, so that is exactly what I would do. So you could, as per Sam's thing, just do a plain bagel. and then infuse any other spices. But I think you'd be just as good choosing a bagel that you enjoyed. Um, like an everything bagel, let's say. And then, you know, slice it. If you want a toasted flavor, I think it's going to transfer better with a toasted flavor, toast it, although then it'll taste like a toasted bagel, not like a raw
+
+[11:05] bagel. You could do it with a regular raw, you know, not raw, but you know what I mean? Untoasted. Slice it thinly and let it infuse. I would squeeze the stuff out, expect some loss because of the absorption of the liquid into
+
+[11:15] the bagel. I would assume you'll get less loss if you dehyd, at least dehydrated it before you infused it. I mean, maybe if you don't want to toast it, if you don't want those brown flavors. I would at least dehydrated to get some of that water out so that you get a better infusion of the stuff into
+
+[11:31] it quicker, quicker transfer the flavor to the alcohol. But that should definitely work. Now, the question is what kind of a, in other words, I wouldn't necessarily, as, um, I think it was Johnny's name, right? do a malt-based liquor, although you could. when we say malt, I assume you mean something like malt, like scotch. But I think something like scotch is going to be a little too strong. I'll go for a little lighter flavor to go with your bagel because I think it's, you know, it's not going to want a very heavy, heavy flavor.
+
+[11:58] I mean, I mean, look, I would first, I mean, I know a lot of my listeners probably aren't vodka fans, but I would try it 1st in a high-proof
+
+[12:04] vodka just to see what the kind of flavor transfer characteristics are and then move on because it's only going to be a couple of days it's going to take. it's going to take you a month to make this stuff and then switch over to, uh, you know, a flavor that you maybe like better with a bagel.
+
+[12:17] Like I don't think bagel and gin sounds good. you? No. I mean, if you're going to do bagel and vodka, then you could go bloody, bloody Mary-ish on it a little bit, you know what I mean? Some of the flavors that I like with a bagel, like tomato and things like that, or tomato water and a bagel, vodka might be nice. I'm trying to think of what else. I mean, the problem, you know, I think the problem with a scotch is
+
+[12:34] that the oak is just going to be too intense and I don't know that it's going to mix. blow the bagel out, don't you think, stuff? You know, and any regular malt stuff's going to be like a regular malt liquor, let's say, like Colt 45 isn't going to have enough of
+
+[12:46] a an alcohol, I think, to really get a good infusion on it. So I think you're kind of stuck there, using a lighter flavored product. Maybe, I mean, I don't think you'd want to go into something like a grandpa. I'm trying to think. What do you think? Any other ideas? liquors that might taste good with a bagel? I think vodka might work. I mean, I hate to recommend it necessarily, but look, just test it in vodka first. Yes? Yeah. Make sure you seal the mason jar. I don't think you're going to need to heat it. The reason for Mason jars just has got a wider neck on it. And so, you know, you're not going to have to try and shove it in and then get it out. Wow, that's the 1st time that's ever happened. Two, like, very strange questions that have never come up before coming out. I bet you those guys know each other. Please write in and tell me whether you guys know each other and you're having some sort of bagel cocktail off and you just didn't want to tell the other one that you were writing a desk, right? I mean, I mean, seriously. seriously. how's that possible? Okay, so starting with, uh, actually, you know what? You want to go to our 1st commercial break and come back, let's go to our 1st commercial break, call an order of your questions, 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128.
+
+[13:52] Stay tuned for a live broadcast. HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[14:03] One, two, get down. They didn't call the Beatball.
+
+[14:19] I made the call, beat the phone. Look at me. You know what, see? Feel bad, muck. Look at me. Nobody see. See a bad mother. Paid the car, beat the ball. Hey, the car, beat the ball. Look at me. Know what to see? See a bad mother. Hello, and welcome back to cooking issues, calling all your questions, too. 718-4972128. 718-497-2128. Going with Johnny Hunter's 2nd question. Uh, is it safe to make dry cured meats with beef if you don't have a heat step to kill
+
+[15:22] E. coli at some point? I was wondering if there was another way to kill E. coli and still make good dry cured meats. Thanks, Johnny Hunter. Now, this is an excellent question. First of all, The question is, are you, what kind of dry cured meat are you trying to make? Are you trying to make a, like a sausage, like a dry cured sausage product, or a whole cut, dry cured meat, like a prasala or something like that? Now, uh, the problem is, there's a number of bacteria that can grow in dry cured
+
+[15:52] meats. And the place to go for what the US government considers to be kind of the information on this, is the National Center for Home Food Preservation, and they have a guide in literature review series, and one is smoking and
+
+[16:05] curing, literature review and critical preservation points. And they talk about all the different kind of nasty beasties that can grow in your meat, like botulism,
+
+[16:15] uh, listeria, uh, staphylococcus, and E. coli. They go through all of them, but these are going to be the major ones that you have to deal with. Now, the issue with E. coli is, it's kind of the newer varieties of E. coli, like 0157 H7 that are very kind of, they can be virulent and difficult to, they can cause very bad infections if you get them.
+
+[16:42] So here's the issue. Dry curing unheated meat products doesn't necessarily kill E. coli. Even if there is quite a bit of salt present and you have a significant dehydration. You will kill some of them, but it's not considered an ultimate kill step. The bad news is, is that it doesn't take that many living bacteria to necessarily cause
+
+[17:07] an infection. There was an outbreak of E. coli in Washington State in 1994 that was linked to a dry fermented salami product that had been infected with E. coli. And they didn't think in the at the end of the studies that it was caused necessarily post cure. In other words, it was probably caused by meat that had been highly infected at the beginning of the cure process. And there was another study that was done, that a meat that was very highly infected, did show, basically, you know, a factor of, I believe it was either a 100 or a 1000 reduction in the quantity of E. coli present, but still not a total eradication over the course of time of the
+
+[17:47] dehydration, the fermentation. So the acidity, and the salt and the dehydration aren't necessarily enough to obliterate
+
+[17:59] E. coli. And the same holds true for meat jerky that's, especially meat jerky made out of ground meat, like ground meat strips that you then dehydrate, even though it's dehydrated quite a
+
+[18:08] bit. Apparently, it's not enough of a kill step to necessarily assure that you've eradicated E. coli. Have you killed a bunch of the E. coli? Most probably. Now, on, so those guys recommend a heat, basically,
+
+[18:20] the US government on meat, they recommend a 145 degree for, I think, like 4 or 10 minutes or something like that, kill step for their beef containing
+
+[18:32] sausage. So a lot of people, to get around this, have removed beef from a lot of their
+
+[18:36] mixes, like pepperoni and what, so it doesn't have to have that because strangely, unless it's gotten beef in it, they don't expect you to have E. coli in it. So they don't they don't ask for or require that. That said, 145 degrees for uh, 4 minutes is a, or whatever it is, 8 minutes is preposterously high temperature to kill E. coli. I mean, ridiculously high. You should be able to kill it at much, much lower temperatures. But I think the reason they do this, I don't know whether they do that step after they dehydrated or
+
+[19:08] before, if they do it after, then it's a lot harder necessarily. There's not as much water, so it's probably not as easy to get the killing temperatures to the bacteria. Um, so that's the unfortunate, uh, the unfortunate of it. But if you're doing a whole muscle cut, like a prasala. It's assumed that unless you've needled or Jakarted the meat, that the inside is relatively sterile. And so basically you just need to make sure that the stuff on the outside is killed. And the extreme high salt that's on the outside of a whole muscle cut like a brasala, as it's curing, I think
+
+[19:37] is probably going to wipe out anything that's present. In fact, I've never, I wasn't able to find any cases from a dry cured, like a prasala of
+
+[19:44] a poisoning. There have been ham issues where you've had that, but I think they're mostly off of
+
+[19:49] brines ready to cook hams, that they've had outbreaks of things like staff,
+
+[19:52] um, uh, E. coli, uh, things of that nature. So those are things um, that I would, uh, you know, worry about. You could also go to the FSIS, a food safety inspection services, processing procedures for dried meat on the web, and it has a lot
+
+[20:11] of, a lot of information on it. I'm going to get back because my study of that and I'm adding nitrates. Nitrites and nitrites, obviously, are added to control bacteria, like botulism and to give kind of a cured color to meats and a cured flavor.
+
+[20:25] But while I was researching this for this question, I came up with an interesting kind of slaughter and anesthesia idea. But before I get into that, I'm going to read an update we had
+
+[20:33] from, um, Andy in Chicago who asked us about bluefish. Remember who's going out in blue fishing? He actually texted this in during last week's show, but I didn't have time to get to it because I didn't see it because we were on the show. So he says, not sure if you'll get this in time for today's show. We didn't. That's why we're doing it this week, but wanted to let you know how the bluefish testing went. Now, for those of you that know, that listened a couple of weeks ago, whatever. Andy was going to go out fishing for blues, among other things. And I said, please do an Ikigime test on bluefish, Ikigime
+
+[21:04] being specifically spinal cord destruction, where you stick a needle down the spinal cord of the fish, kill the spinal cord, and therefore stop the messages, you know, the electrical signals from going to the spinal
+
+[21:15] cords of the muscles. This preserves the ATP and the muscles, which means it goes into rigor a little bit later and a little bit softer than it would otherwise, which preserves firmness and flesh. And since bluefish gets nasty and mushy. Um, I would assume that it would be a prime, and it's a strong
+
+[21:30] swimmer, and usually it's the very strong swimmers that uh, uh, benefit a lot from spinal cord destruction. I thought it would be great, but I've never been able to run a test. And so Andy ran one for us. So I'm just going to read what he wrote. We caught 3 bluefish on our 1st night of fishing, one of which you can see my friend holding in the attached pick. You can't see the attached pick, but I can. We did not destroy the brain, but cut through the spinal column entail on all 3 spinal cord
+
+[21:56] destruction, and on all of them. Okay, sorry. He cut through the spinal cord and the tail on all 3 fish. The spinal cord destroyed 2 of them and left all of them in an ice bath in the cooler to bleed out. Okay, so unfortunately, he did not get to listen to the show until after everything happened, so he didn't remove the gills and guts
+
+[22:15] immediately. We did filet them, however, within about 2 to 4 hours of catching them. It's an interesting question of whether you should filet a fish before or after it goes through rigor. This is not what he's writing. I'm just telling you this as an aside. If you filet a fish before it goes into rigor, it tends to be more contracted and firmer because it never relaxes as much as if it's left on the
+
+[22:34] muscles when it's going into rigor. The idea being that the bones and the structure of the fish hold the meat in place and don't allow it to contract as much. So they end up being kind of larger fillets. That said, it might make a firmer filet with less gaping in the flesh after it comes out of rigor, if it's
+
+[22:51] filleted before it goes into rigor. interesting question. And I don't know whether it's gone under rigor. Nose and I, years ago, ran a couple of tests, but nothing conclusive, so I never posted on it, but it's very
+
+[23:01] interesting, and there is some research on it because people want to filet fish as soon as they can after they catch them for economic reasons.
+
+[23:07] Anyway, we did filet them within about 2 hours of catching them. The non-spinal cord destruction fish. We ate the 1st night. Very light cornmeal breading, pan fried, and a bit of canola oil, tasted a bit mushy but good overall. One of the spinal cord destruction fish. We ate the 2nd night after 24 hours of resting, also pan fried and light cornmeal breading. Definitely firmer, flakier and tastier. The last one we ate the 3rd night, cooked in a little butter, salt, and pepper without any coating. All 3 of us noticed a market improvement over the previous night's fish, meaty, firm, flaky, and delicious. After 15 plus years of eating bluefish. That was probably the tastiest piece of bluefish I have ever eaten, huh? Huh? Uh, we need to run some more control tests. I'd like very much to run this test again, but it'll probably be another 10 months or more before I'm back on the Gulf Coast. Nevertheless, I think this test can be considered a qualified success, qualified only to the extent it was only 3 fish and they were not eaten side by side. The darker flesh near the skin was present, was still present on all 3 fish, you know, that's like the bloodline near the thing, the
+
+[24:00] KI. I don't mind a GI. I don't mind eating that part, but it looks a little funky. It is also pretty easy to cut out of the filet before cooking. Do you have any thoughts on how to treat that? Thanks so much. I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Andy, from Chicago. Well, I mean, look, the fact that you like the bluefish the 3rd day, I think is freaking awesome, especially if you were an experienced bluefish, bluefish eater, you know kind of the problems and tribulations
+
+[24:23] with bluefish after it sits around. I think, you know, obviously, there's nothing you can do about the bloodline, by the way, except for cut it out. I mean, that's it. There's nothing you can do with it. I mean, the Japanese with big tuna, they'll cut out the bloodline and they'll grill it separately over very high heat. I don't particularly like that preparation because it still has that kind of bloody metallic taste. They like it. you know, they really, I guess soy and stuff and they grill it and everything and they like it, but, you know, whatever. It's also kind of small. I like the taste when it's mixed in with the other parts of the fish. Now, the fact that you like that, I think this is a really a huge opportunity for further study for
+
+[24:55] any fisher people who listen to this. I unfortunately don't have an opportunity to fish and my stepfather refuses to do
+
+[25:02] Ikigime or spinal cord destruction on the fishy catches on Cape Cod, and he primarily gets a striper anyway. I don't know when the last time he got a blue was. But a bluefish, I think, is fantastic fish. It's a fish that, you know, I've always liked, but it's recently becoming more popular. It's our fish, it's there in abundance. If we can make this fish taste significantly better based on its post-slaughter treatment by doing spinal cord destruction. This is a huge opportunity for us to improve the quality of the fish that I already think is delicious. But I favor fatty fish anyway. Do you like a fatty fish, nastasia? She does. She does. She's not talking to the mic, so you might not be able to hear, but she says that she does. For those of you that, you know, can't hear the whispered tones of Nastasia leaning into the background and playing with her person. Anyway. doing something very important. Yeah, what? She can't say. Uh-huh. Yeah, all right. Great. Can't say. Super. All right. So, uh, Ryan Santos writes in, hey Dave, what's up with snails? That's a good question. It's kind of, I like an open-ed question like that. What's up with snails? I've had them both great and terrible. What's the best way to cook them? Is there a low temp- cooking solution? At what temperatures are snails and then, quote unquote, cooked? And is this all pointless as I only have access to canned snails? Thanks. Well, yes, if you only have access to canned snails, then all of this is pointless because those snails have been cooked at a very high temperature already.
+
+[26:22] And, um, you know, they're basically, those snails are, uh, have been sterilized in water and salt, uh, and, you know, probably a court bouillon mixture in a
+
+[26:32] can at at least 120 C for, I don't know, like 30, 40 minutes. They're they're cooked. I mean, they are cooked. But even if you don't have access to live snails. I know in Europe, they're available because I was looking at my, at my, the might be the worst translated book I own called Intensive Snail
+
+[26:52] farming. It's from Italy. I went to a farm called La Chocula, which is a slang word for snail in the north of Italy.
+
+[26:59] The other one's Lumaka, right? Lumaka is the real word, but La Chocula is the name of the farm, and it's, you know, it means snail
+
+[27:07] in, like, Etruscan or some crap. anyway. So the, by the way, my son says I say crap too much. Daddy, you say crap too much. It is true. It's true. I say crap too much? Anyway, it's better than the rest of stuff, I say. Anyway. So, uh, I have this book, and apparently in Europe, and I've never seen it in the US. I sure it's available. You can get fresh packed frozen snails in like frozen block form, the way that you would get shrimp. And I don't think those ones have been high temp processed, so you could, you could cook with those. Occasionally in fish markets in New York, you will get created live snails. And the way that they're prepared is they take snails and they've been eating. And traditionally, if you catch snails, right, that you haven't been feeding yourself, you don't know what they've been eating. They could have been eating plants that are poisonous to you, but not poisonous to them. So the typical thing is you starve them out for 3 days. You put them in a cage with mesh so they don't get like done in their, you know, all mired in their own muck. And you just let them stay in that cage for 7 days. Uh, no water, nothing, and they'll they'll basically uh, they'll cover themselves. They'll go in to basically a hibernating mode. They'll cover their whatever that thing is called. what is that called? It's not a perculum, is it? whatever the flap is that covers the snail. They'll cover that up. It'll seal themselves and they'll go into hibernation. And then they'll last for a long time alive. So that's what they do. They prepare the snails like that and they shift them in a box. At which point they're ready to go. You wash them off. Uh, you know, with whatever vinegar, whatever, if they have any, stink them, be careful with them because the shells are often quite
+
+[28:37] fragile. Then you boil them for like 3 minutes in salted
+
+[28:42] water, whatever. This is basically just to kill them. After you kill them, you pick off the trap door. Uh, take the snails out, then you prepare them using any one of the normal
+
+[28:52] techniques. The normal technique is to cut off the black foot, although I've heard that that's not necessary. Uh, you know, at the back, whatever that, like the guts are in the very back of the snail. Although, like I say, I hear that's not necessary. And then they're simmered in a court bouillon, which is like a flavored bouillon for a long time until they're tenderized, and then repacked in the shells with your butter, with herbs, whatever. A lot of Italian preps actually, instead of using parsing all that use mint. That'd be kind of interesting, right? Minted snails? anyway. In the North End, they use peppermint, apparently, in these recipes from Etruscop. Anyway, Etruscan recipes. Anyhoo, um, Now, uh, if you can obtain uh, live snails, right? I think that's the way to go. I've done it, but I've only done it maybe 4 or 5 times, and I haven't done it in probably 10 years because I used to have a fish market that had live snails on a seasonal
+
+[29:41] basis, and I would just buy them from them and make them, and they were delicious. We tried to cook some snails that hadn't been purged out properly. Um, when, uh, when I was in Italy a couple years ago and it wasn't 100% success. So, I mean, if you can get ones that have been cleaned out and we also tried to feed them, which didn't work because you're supposed to fatten snails and the Romans used to fatten them on milk and they, but you need to know what you're doing. I've had horrible luck. About 15 years ago, I tried to fatten snails on rosemary,
+
+[30:08] because apparently paella, you know, they fed them herbs, the snails, they'd feed them herbs, and then they would taste like the herbs, but I think that's horse hockey. And I talked to Steingarten. He thinks it's BS2 because these snails, not only did they not eat the rosemary, they died in my in my house and in my apartment on 38th
+
+[30:25] Street, and they stank up the entire apartment, I tried to take the few live snails that were left and cooked them and my wife was like, are you nuts?
+
+[30:31] Are you freaking nuts? Who the hell is going to eat those snails after they've been smelling up our bathroom for the last, you know, week? Anyway. So I wouldn't recommend doing that. But they are fairly easy to cook. Now, as for sous vide or low temperature, I couldn't find any recipes on low
+
+[30:45] temperature cooking of snails, that said, the issue with snails, when you cook them, is after you do your kill step with them, you take them out and you're supposed to boil them either a couple times or rinse them in something acidic to get rid of the
+
+[30:57] mucus. Snails produce a lot of mucus, and you want to rinse the mucus off before you work with them. So if you're going to do low temp, I would try to do the kill step initially, pull them out, rinse them off, you know, with in water,
+
+[31:11] salt, and vinegar, like get the, and then do a low temp prep. But I don't know what temperature you'd use. Like, would you do similar to an octopus? And so Keller for that does like 5 hours at 77 C. I do it usually like just a regular simmering water for like 3 hours in a bag, or Keller has his cuttlefish recipe at 64 degrees Celsius for 10 hours, which he says is good, but I have no experience with.
+
+[31:31] The one I'd really like to try is whatever Nathan Mirville does for Gooey
+
+[31:36] Duck, which is, if you're looking it up and you don't know what it is. It's spelled Geoduck, and it's the porn star's clam. looks like, well, it's, yeah, just look it up and you'll see what it looks like. It's crazy. It's like, you know, and he made, I think, the best tasting gooey duck that I've ever had at his modernist dinner that he did, you know, at his
+
+[31:56] lab, and he did it a very low temp and not that long, basically just warm through in a CVAP oven. But I don't have a copy of modernist cuisine. I couldn't look it up. Anyone that has it out there. Uh, not a write in or call in right now. 718-4972128 and tell us what their cooking technique is because I'd like to give that. I think that would be useful. Anyway, let's go to our 2nd commercial break and we'll come back with the last questions.
+
+[32:30] Oh, yeah Come on.
+
+[32:48] yeah Two, one, two, one, two, one, two.
+
+[33:26] walking down dr
+
+[33:48] Too funky in here. Open the window, let in some air. Put a little air freshener under the drums, open up the window, let out some. I love some live James Brown. Thank you, Jack. Is that yours, Jack? That's not mine. Who knows whose call was that? Oh my call, yes. Yeah nice. Any live James Brown is good. You know, we used to play, was it was it always James Brown for the center, right? For our middle track was always James Brown, and someone started complaining. Exactly. Who the hell complains about James Brown? Look, look, if you don't like James Brown, There is something wrong with your funk motor. I think it's because they liked when Jack and I put on Phil Collins that one time. right. That was it. Phil, was it Sasudio? It was a little bit of Genesis and a little bit of Phil. I can't remember. Phil's style Genesis. Like, uh, that's all, like really bad Genesis. No, I'm not saying that's bad for all you Genesis lovers. By the way, you know who's a big Genesis lover? famous violinist. Stop. Let's not talk about that. No? Let me just say, there's a guy who owns a $3.50000000 violin whose only rock music that he likes is Genesis. music other than class. Other than classical, he likes his genesis. And I won't say that his last name is Bell because I can't say that. But when confronted by, you know, I don't know who, let's say someone whose name is Nastasia,
+
+[35:04] really, she literally said, really? Phil Collins, that's all, which is, you know, one of their later and, you know, whatever, weak songs. He's like, oh, no, no, no, no, early Genesis. Okay, getting in trouble. All right. So the other question from San Kansen, Ben Navev, Ben Navev. Sorry, Sam, that I can't get your name right. Someone calling it. If you pronounce it to me 3 times in a row, I should be able to get it. And by the way, he's at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, Madtown, which everyone who's from there loves it more than they love anything. You know, I've never I've never been. The closest I've been is to Oshkosh. The International Agriculture and Natural Resources Community and Environmental Sociology. That's a hugest name for a department I've ever heard in my entire life. Anyway, he also asked about the bagel cocktail. And his other question, though, was, what is a secret to a crispy pickle? We do lots of pickling with a variety of vegetables. However, once the product is canned, they become mushy, albeit delicious. The most I have found is to salt, use ice baths, and even some recipes that claim grape or oak leaves will help keep the product crisp. Any thoughts? All right. Okay. So the grape leaf thing is really about, um, cucumbers. So in cucumbers, there is there are enzymes in cucumbers. And there's a huge long list of them that I got off of a website. Um, a lot of, like, well, they're basically, um, they're pectinace enzymes, like pectin, um, Esterace and, uh, like lots of really random ones. I not going to try to pronounce. Okay, exopolygalactteronace, uh, endopolygalactteronace, which, you know, endosylonace, basically a bunch of aces that uh, enzymes that break down, um, pectin, and even cellulates that break down like
+
+[36:59] a hemicellulose and cellulose that destroy the structure over time, unless the enzymes are destroyed. Uh, so you can either destroy them or you can inhibit
+
+[37:10] them or you can remove them. So in a cucumber, right? The grape leaves that are added apparently have something in them that can inhibit the activity of those
+
+[37:20] enzymes. And I don't know what that something is. I didn't have time to figure it out, but I've seen it done that listed, not just in kind of like home nut job sites, but also in some university agricultural extension
+
+[37:31] site. So I'm assuming that there is some validity to that, although, you know, I don't know specifically what the ingredient is. The other thing is, is that those enzymes are concentrated in the blossom end of the cucumber, which is why they say to cut off the 16th inch,
+
+[37:49] a 16th inch or so slice at the blossom end of the cucumber. The blossom end is not the stem end. The blossom. So if you, like, think about a zucchini flower, when you see it, you get those baby zucchinis with the flower coming off of them,
+
+[38:01] right? So the blossom end is actually the other end. the end it sticks out of the plant. And from the research that I was able to do, that is where it's mostly concentrated. So taking a small slice off of that section will get rid of
+
+[38:14] a lot of where those enzymes are. Also, if there's any flour material left that flakes off at that end, that can cause because the flowers maintain that enzymatic activity, basically, even if they are dried. So, and there's a bunch of studies done in the 50s where they put flowers, even into pickles that had already been done, and it softened those pickles. So you really want to get rid of those enzymes. Okay? So that's one way is to cut that off. That's gonna lower the enzyme. Use pickles that are made for pickling because they have a lower concentration of those enzymes to begin with, are more uniform, usually thinner, and are usually kind of denser and don't have any
+
+[38:48] air voids, which are also going to lead to better pickles. So choosing your right variety. Pickling them right after you pick them so that they don't start softening up so that
+
+[38:56] they're, because they basically start getting worse a minute they're taken off the plant. So you want to pickle them soon after they've been harvested. Choose the correct variety of pickle, uh cucumber, rather. This is cucumbers only, by the way. And then trim off that stem end. Hey, sorry, trim off the blossom end. The other thing you can do, if you notice most recipes, they have you pouring hot liquid over the pickles.
+
+[39:19] This is for quick pickling, that is. Uh, you know, with vinegar, not like lactic acid pickles. Pour a hot mixture over it, and then heat it to like 180 or just below for a certain period of time. The reason they start with hot is because they don't want those ends. They want to kill those enzymes right away before they can do any softening. So you hit them with that hot water, and you keep them high enough to kill the enzyme, but below 185 where the
+
+[39:43] pectens are going to start breaking down due to heat, and you wipe out the enzymes, and this is going to create a firmer pickle. If you go over 180, really, you're shafted because you're going to soften the pickle, the cucumber. So those high temperatures can, like high but not too high temperatures inactivate the enzymes and cutting off that blossom and reduces the load of enzymes in there anyway.
+
+[40:03] Aside from that, high salt levels are going to make it so that it stays crisper. going to get more will to do to osmosis, but it's going to stop the, uh, those enzymes from from working. So those all work. In a traditional lactic acid cucumber, uh, you know, like racial sauerkraut style, you know, lactic acid
+
+[40:19] bacteria, the high salt level, I think, uh, stops the enzymes from working and so leaves to having a crisp pickle. The other thing you can add, now, go to regular vegetables. I wasn't able to find much on, um, kind of pecked and breakdown enzymes and other things like cauliflower and whatnot, which make delicious pickles, but, uh, that said, I'm assuming high salt will work. But if you really need want to keep it crisp and you're having problems, uh, try, certain things are just going to get all wilty because of the salt and there's nothing you can do about it. Um, but, uh, try um, lime, pickling lime, no one uses alum anymore. I don't know why because they don't want to put aluminum in because people are freaked out about aluminum, but you
+
+[40:59] can use pickling lime, and the calcium in that strengthens the pectant in the cell walls and makes it such that they stay
+
+[41:05] firm, basically, no matter what, you know, even if you cook them. So what they'll do is they'll make a lime solution with salt and lime, you can get pickling lime, you can get cow from a Mexican store, you can get Thai lime paste, you can get anything. Make a solution of lime. It'll settle out, salt, and then put the cucumber or whatever vegetable in. Let it soak. I don't know, a couple hours overnight. There's a couple of recipes online, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. Then you have to get once it does its calcium thing, you have to soak it in a couple of regular clean water
+
+[41:36] baths to get the excess calcium out. I once packed in heavy calcium water, cucumbers, and over the course of a couple days, they were the most disgusting things in the world. They had the most bizarre texture. So you don't want to overlime them. Right? But then they'll stay crunchy for a long, long time. That'll work with other with anything, basically. Your last resort and you can't get this. I don't even know why I'm telling you this. You can buy pectin metholesterase, which is the an enzyme that actually strengthens the cell walls of
+
+[42:02] plants enzymatically. And you can buy that. The commercial brand, it's from Nova Zimes, it's called Novo shape. And I can take a blueberry, a raspberry, soak it in novo shape for a couple of hours,
+
+[42:15] novo shape and water, and then boil it and it won't even break because it stays firm enough. So it's really, it's cool stuff. So those are basically your range of things. Heat treat to kill any enzymes that are present, but not at a high enough temperature to soften. On a cucumber, cut off the blossom end, not the stem end, although I might as well cut them both, though, doesn't matter. And then, and discard. Um, use fresh uh, ingredients that haven't had a time to break down. And if you need to use pickling lime, and Alan really isn't, even though it does the same thing as calcium isn't necessarily recommended anymore. What does that sound like good advice or no? Yes. Oh, and higher assault levels. If you do a low salt pickle, it's going to get softer. I think, no matter what. Even though salt, like I say, osmotically is going to make it shrivel up a little bit. Apparently it stops any sort of enzymatic breakdown. And also stops bacteria from growing, which can otherwise make things soft. Yes, yes? Okay. Now, the last thing, as I was researching, um, uh, nitrites for today's uh, thingamajig when I was doing cured meats. I came across an interesting an interesting thing. You familiar with the blue people of Kentucky? No? So there used to be a famously a family. I believe their name was the Fugets of Kentucky, the Blue Fugets of Kentucky, and they had a congenital or they have still a congenital disease called, what's it called? I'll look it up. Basically, the idea is that their hemoglobin is an oxygenated enough because they don't have the proper enzymes to take deoxygenated hemoglobin and
+
+[43:49] reoxygenated at the same rate that we do. And so here we go. It's called Met Hemoglobinemia. And so they were blue because their blood didn't have as much oxygen and they were very pale people and they lived in Kentucky. So they had this whole thing and they were known as the blue fugates of Kentucky or the blue people of Kentucky. They since figured out how to cure that. So they're not they're not blue anymore. But where does it, where does that, where does that bring me? Because it turns out, that there's, in Australia, they're researching a technique to induce
+
+[44:22] met hemoglobinemia in wild pigs by feeding them sodium nitrite, which is the same thing that we cure meets with.
+
+[44:31] And pigs have a very low level of uh, the enzyme that uh, that basically convert, it's called um, methemoglobin reductase that uh, converts methemoglobin back to oxygen carrying hemoglobin.
+
+[44:45] So they have a much lower level of this enzyme than we do. So basically they feed them sodium nitrite pills in hog baits, and they're called the baits, check this out, are called hog
+
+[44:55] gone. Hog gone, hog gone baits. There are 20 grams of microencapsulated sodium nitrates spread throughout, you know, basically baits that they put in the forest. And what's awesome about this, hog bait, is that they eat it, and their blood no longer carries oxygen, right? Because they have too much met hemoglobin in, but they don't feel distressed. They go into basically, they get woozy and they fall asleep, they pass out, and then they die. So, uh, yeah, and like I said many times, is that
+
+[45:28] you, I don't know whether I've said it here, but many times, I can't remember why they say here or not. Your body doesn't sense in pig's bodies. They don't sense lack of oxygen. They sense excess carbon dioxide. So the pig is not going to feel stressed. They don't freak out. when they're being killed with sodium nitrite. Um, So I was thinking, because we've been thinking a lot about anesthetics for fish.
+
+[45:50] I've done a lot of work with anesthetics for fish, anesthetics for crustaceans, and with proper slaughtering
+
+[45:56] practices, but this is basically only being used for killing wild hogs in a humane manner. You know what they've been feeding them before, rat poison. How nasty is that? Feeding them rat poison, which basically causes you to bleed out internally, which can't be pleasant.
+
+[46:10] Um, and um, I'm wondering whether or not, like, this can be used for a, uh, for humane slaughter practice, basically anesthesia for regular pigs that are going to
+
+[46:22] market. They pass out and die within one hour without any noticeable.
+
+[46:27] There's a spike in certain biological markers like cortisol, which are normally added with stress, but the other biological markers weren't changed, and it could just be due to the fact that
+
+[46:36] of the increased, the shift of oxygen in the blood. Anyway, so I'm going to leave you guys this week with that idea of is there a possibility for more humane slaughtering of pigs by basically putting them to sleep with what amounts to a food grade,
+
+[46:51] anesthetic, sodium nitrite, and can this be feasible? I'd like any feedback from our readers, listeners, rather? And this has been cooking issues.
+
+[47:05] Vicious fish, vodka. Oh, you did.
+
+[47:17] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes
+
+[47:35] Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Today, we'd like to send a special thank you to the following restaurants for supporting no goat left behind, Sambar and Mopesh. Show your support at these restaurants by ordering one of the menu items featuring Goat. Goat is the most eaten protein in the entire world, yet in the US we import most of our goat. Our dairy farms are forced to kill some male goats at birth because there's no market for them. Help make a change, support no goat left behind. As a part of National Food Day, St. John's Bread in Life, Brooklyn's innovative and life-saving food service program based in Bedford Stuyvesant is inviting Brooklyn chefs and purveyors to learn about how the organization is marrying the procurement of
+
+[48:27] old-fashioned, locally grown organic produce with the latest technology to deliver healthy, cost-effective meals to those in need.
+
+[48:35] St. John's Bread in Life, located at 795 Lexington Avenue, will hold an open house on Monday, October
+
+[48:42] 24th from 6.30 to 8.30 p.m. Visit www.foodday.org to sign up for the event.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[0:21] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Joined with you, us today in studio by Nastasia the Hammer locals. Hello, Nastasia. Hi. She just got back from California. She was visiting home in the LA region because her sister was on the homecoming court at her high school homecoming
+
+[0:46] thingamajade, correct? Didn't win though, right? But you feel glad that she had win. Yeah, I'm happy. You're happy that she didn't win? I care to tell us why. Because you have to go back home and crown the new princess. Yeah, which is weak, right? It's weak. Who wants to go back to high school after they've already graduated? It's lame. Well, unless you're robbing the cradle. But that wasn't me. I never did that Anyway, right or wrong. Phil, Bravo. Wow. friend of ours, Phil Bravo, well-known cradle robber, folks. Well-known cradle, cradle rubber. Test, test. Can you hear me? Yeah, that was working. I was nominated for Homecoming King. You were? That's awesome. Where did you, where were you in high school? I lost. It was in Long Island. Are you also glad that you lost? You didn't have to go back to high school and crown the next year? don't think I had to do that. That sounds crazy. That's like an LA thing, maybe. Sounds like it. You know what I heard? I heard from Nastasia that the queen did get to ride down the boulevard in a low rider with the hydraulics pancaking the whole way down
+
+[1:38] the down the tarmac. How awesome was that? I've always wanted to get into a low rider with the hydraulics. They are sweet. Was it green? Was it green paint with green with the sparkly green? Oh geez. There's another lifelong dream. I still have time, folks. I'm not dead yet. Okay. So, Colin, all of your questions, cooking or otherwise, too. 718-497-2128. Memorize 718-497-2128. Today's episode is brought to you again. They must love us, to us. They do. By the modernist pantry. Today's show is I'm just going to read it. They wrote what I just said, which is today's show is sponsored by the modest pantry. You got actually, you know, it's a pain that when you're reading, you can't actually pay attention to what you're saying as you're reading it. That's why sometimes I'll stop my reading voice and start making comments, which is dumb. All right, do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds
+
+[2:27] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that makes sense for the home cook or
+
+[2:36] enthusiast, and most costs only around 5 bucks, only 5 bucks. Hey, 5 bucks. That cheap, all right? Hey, saving you time, money, and storage space, whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry, and if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. There's got to be some country they can't ship to. Yeah. Right? Who knows how they do it? I have no idea. What does that mean in expensive? I don't know. I'd like to know. Someone just, someone from another country order from these guys and tell me, tell me, like New Zealand. Anyway, modern pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry now carries 8 types of metocellulose in various grades and viscosities. Fans of cooking issues at place in order of $25 or more before next week's show. will get a free package of high viscosity metal cellulos. Simply use a promo code CI 59 when pricing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay, listen, Methosale. interesting. First of all, it's the only hydrocoloid that I use that isn't actually all natural. Methocyulose doesn't is not a naturally occurring product. What they do is they take cellulose from, like, you know, cotton or whatever, wood pulp, whatever it is. And they modify it to have certain properties. Now, what I would like to monitor this pantry guys to do is specify not a viscosity necessarily, but exactly what type of
+
+[4:02] methocellulose we're talking about. Most chefs use methyl cellulose, and here's one for you,
+
+[4:08] hydroxy propyl methyl cellulose from Dao. you know, the, you know, Dao, like big, the big company Dao. And their brand name is methocell, right? M-E-T-H-O-C-E-L, methocell. And the viscosity is only one of the things you actually need to know about methyl cell. It's also the type that it is because they have kind of widely differing properties, depending on whether it's methocellulose, hydroxypropyl
+
+[4:32] methylcellose, what the chain length is, et cetera, exactly what series it is. Now, the super high viscosity ones are often used, the interesting thing about methyl cells. methyl cell, gels when it heats and melts when it cools down. So this is the hydrocollidative choice. If you've ever been to a restaurant or seen an application on the television set, where someone takes a liquid and squeezes it into a
+
+[4:56] broth and it sets up into like a noodle or a gel right away into a hot broth. Typically that's a methocellulose is what they're, what they're doing there, methocell, a Dow methocell. Typically a high viscosity one so that it doesn't bleed out. However, I don't ever do that. My favorite methocell is not actually a high viscosity methocell, it's methocell, F, like
+
+[5:15] Frank, 50, methocell, F, 50. And aside from sounding like an expensive Ferrari, does sound like a Ferrari, right? Methyl F 15. Anyway, um, it's not. What it is, is it's a load of medium viscosity methyl cell that has amazing whipping property. So you add like 8 grams per liter of this stuff to whatever, you know, fruit,
+
+[5:38] puree juice, whatever. And then you in a blender. And then you put it into like a KitchenAid with a balloon whisk on it and you whip it just like egg whites. And the stuff whips up just like a meringue. This is what, I believe this is what Sam Mason, way back in the day, used to use to make
+
+[5:53] like, uh, like, foams that had like the texture of like a Guinness head. He was looking for the texture that was on top of a Guinness beer was what he was shooting for. He used to get it with this. I forget whether he actually used Guinness as the foam with a 50 or not. I can't remember. Anyway, so it makes up into a nice almost like an egg white meringue. And here's the cool part. If you pipe it onto a silpat or whatever piece of acetate,
+
+[6:15] sticking in a dehydrator or in an oven that's set to dehydrate, they don't fall. They gel up a little bit and solidify and they turn into these amazing meringues that disappear in your mouth.
+
+[6:25] They're not like a regular meringue and have a little bit of a proteinist. They boom, disappear in your mouth and they're amazing. They can be made with any flavor. And they're vegan,
+
+[6:34] not, I don't know. They can be vegan. Nostasia made a vegan face. I wish you could see her vegan face. It's like the equivalent of like, you know, the nose crinkles up a little bit and it's like someone made an off smell or something in the room, which is unfortunate because I don't feel that way about other human beings the way Nastasia does.
+
+[6:48] That's why we call her the hammer. What? You don't like vegans very much. I don't have anything against... I think V, look, it's like, it's like, I don't... No, no, no. It's unfair. It's unfair. It's difficult for me to cook for vegans, right? So it makes it very hard for me to cook for vegans. And you're upset with their life choices. I wish they hadn't made that life choice. Yes, I do wish they hadn't made that life choice, but it's nothing against them personally, you know? Um, you know, I have, how many vegan recipes do I have that I actually make that are vegan? like two. Two. I have two. So if you come to my house and you're a vegan, please let me know in advance and I'll make one of my 2 recipes that's vegan. One of them is actually a delay. You know, you can you could take a lot of good Indian food and substitute out olive oil for ghee and get a passable
+
+[7:34] result. I mean, I guess that's what a lot of people do. I don't know. Who knows? Why the hell are we talking about this? This is nothing to do with anything. Mental cellulos. vegan. It just happens to be the one thing I use. It's not all natural The other the other one I don't use that a lot of chefs use is propylene glycolalgenate. It's not natural. Not unholy, just not natural. It doesn't exist in nature, right? Being the definition of natural. All right. So, call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. Okay, uh, Dave and Company. Hi again. My hunting friend wants to make a country ham out of venison, would the hanging time be comparable to pork, or would you use a and would you use a different cure? I told him he might want to incorporate juniper berries or jam into the cure. Am I full of crap? Thanks, Derek Bodkin. Well, I wouldn't put, Well, that depends. mean, I guess you could put gin in. Um, I mean, I typically for a country ham kind of an application wouldn't be using any liquid, so it wouldn't be kind of brined in. But I mean, it's not going to hurt. It's going to evaporate fairly quickly, but I would, you know, I would use, you could add whatever spices you want. I mean, um, you know, so delicious, uh, delicious, something with juniper in it that you might want to taste would be spech. Spec's delicious, right? You like speck, right? You know what, though? It's one of those things. I enjoy the speck, which is basically what they'll do is they'll take a ham leg. Theyll roll it out flat. They'll cure it flat, which means it cures a lot faster than it would if it was left in a whole roll. And they typically smoke it, and it's typically, I believe, juniper, right? Is the flavor in it? Yes. And there's there's one, there's a whole, you know, from altolategy up in the north of Italy, and then also across the border, in the, in the kind of
+
+[9:04] a Austro-Germanic kind of tradition, there's speck. And I happen to prefer the Italian one because the one that's typically north of the border is a little bit drier. The ones we get, at least the ones that I've had. And so Speck is delicious and that's got juniper in it. The trick with curing venison is venison is
+
+[9:22] not doesn't have typically as much fat in the meat as would something like pork.
+
+[9:28] Um, I would assume that it would cure closer to beef in terms
+
+[9:34] of uh, like a prasala. I think it would appear closer to that kind of situation. So, um, you know, if you wanted to cure for the length of time that ham would cure for, you're
+
+[9:42] going to need to protect it from drying out too much, right? So, well, you know, what you could do is salt it down, uh, and get the salt level, kind of the way you want. It's going to take some practice. I'd have to look up exactly what's going on. Um, but I would, after it, after it starts to dehydrate a bit, I would cover it with fat,
+
+[10:00] uh, like with a layer of fat, or maybe you could go, uh, maybe you could go, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, you know, Parma style, where after it ages for a certain bit, they'll put the face of the meat, which is a part of the meat that shows it doesn't have fat.
+
+[10:13] They'll take lard and I forget, like, is it rice flour or something? They'll take lard and something like rice flour and work it over the face of the ham there so to stop the drying out. So I would do that. So that way you get the moisture level that you want and then you'd cover it up and let it dry out. Uh, you know, so it wouldn't dry out too much. And I think it should work. I think that would be great. I mean, juniper sounds great. I might even smoke it a little bit with new size. It would be delicious. And it sounds like a very good alternative to, you know, the venison jerky that everyone makes. Of course, also, if your friend is a hunter, and I don't know whether we've already discussed this because I can't remember which questions you sent in, please go buy an immersion circulator. If you are going to take the trouble to buy a weapon, get a hunting license, go sit in a tree for like a day and a half waiting for a deer to come
+
+[10:54] by that's big enough that you want to shoot it in the neck and take it home. Spend the 800 bucks on an immersion circulator so that you don't have to turn everything into sausage and chili, all right? Because venison cooked in an immersion circulator. Not for too long, necessarily. If you cook it too long, sometimes it can get gamey, but venison cooked in an immersion circulator, even like an older one is going to be freaking delicious. And I know this not from theory, but from actual practice, not of my own stuff because I wish I could hunt, but I don't have a hunting license. I want one kind of pretty badly. I want, you know, I'd like to. I don't really want to, I don't really necessarily want to shoot a deer. I really want to get things that you can't buy otherwise. I mean, I want to get like grouse and woodcock and all those things. Anyway, Nastasia once saw me eat a grouse and a woodcock and a teal in England, because they can serve them in the restaurants in England, and it had like the little BBs in it and everything, and I thought she was going to quit working for cooking issues because I was literally like, like, there was blood, there was blood all over my face, like cooked semi-cooked innards, guts and blood all over my face because I was like, kind of burying my, I was burying my face in the carcass of the verge, trying to eat them out and spinning
+
+[12:00] the, think, think, spitting out the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, on the plate. the head on the plate and I thought that was the end of it until the waitress came over and said, you're not going to eat the
+
+[12:10] head. Well, she knows what's up. Anyway, so as we've said on the show many times. Immersion circulator should be Hunter's best friend. Like, it should basically, when they give you the license, they should say, do you have an
+
+[12:24] emersion circulator? Would you like to buy one? Do you know what I mean? Oh, speaking of which, before we go to the break, a couple of weeks ago, somebody called in, I was like, I have an immersion circulator, but what the hell am I going to do with it? Basically. Remember that? It was like, why, like, what am I going to do with it? For normal family meal that's not like, uh, you know, not competent? You said, yeah. Yeah. Well, I did another one over the weekend. So, local, no offense in case you're the owner of a fine fair out there, but the local crappy, like, grocery store,
+
+[12:52] key food, sea town style thing is fine. It's called fine fair where I live. You know, it's just like the local, you know, grocery store. And, uh, so I went in there and I bought your regular run of the mill sausage.
+
+[13:03] And I cooked it for family dinner because, you know, a couple weeks ago we went to Cesare Casella's farm, the Thanksgiving farm where they, you know, they helped multiply disabled and autistic kids and adults through therapy, including working on
+
+[13:16] a farm and whatnot. Anyway, so they gave us, they had this kibocha squatch, which are preposterously delicious. I mean, just absurdly delicious. And so I cooked those because they gave us a whole bunch along with some Brussels sprouts, very good. And they told us to cook the leaves on the top of the Brussels sprouts stock, which was surprisingly good. They take a long time to cook, kind of like collards. Uh, but incredibly delicious. So he had those along with potatoes a day. So we had a we had a Thanksgiving farm meal, except for this sausage. So I took the sausage and I threw it in a ziploc bag with a little bit of oil, threw that sucker in the immersion circulator at 60 degrees Celsius, which is 140. You should all remember that, by the way. I don't care whether you cook in Fahrenheit or Celsius. You should remember that 60 is 140 and vice versa. Anyway, cook it. Threw it onto my salamander. you don't have a salamander, you can, I don't know, grill it, do whatever, for like, you know, a minute on a side, and they were like the best dang sausages in the world, and people were like, oh my god, where'd you get that sausage? I was like, I bought it at the fine fair for nothing. But because I cooked it right, it was delicious because typically you overcook a
+
+[14:15] sausage and you're relying on the extra fat on the inside of a sausage to make it taste good.
+
+[14:19] What you should do is just not overcook it from the beginning. Now, when Philip pressed in from polyscience, our good buddy, was putting together the cookbook that we gave him recipes for
+
+[14:28] for his emerging circulator, we gave him that recipe. We like sausage. You should have sausage in there, and he's like, well, why? I don't understand. Like, why do you need to cook a sausage in an immersion circulator? And because I can go by the cheapest, my mind was not the curse. anyway. And, you know, it's not bad quality. I would never buy bad quality for my family, but it's like, you know, inexpensive stuff and you treat it right. Did you do it in beer? What? Did you do it in beer? Oh, I told him he could do like brats, brats and beer, but I just did it in olive oil. I didn't want to like poach these things out. I just did them in a ziploc and olive oil at 60. Uh, you know, for like, you know, whatever. I wasn't even paying attention to it and I threw it. And then you know what I did? I didn't want to fire up my circulator for the leftovers. So I took a Ziploc bag and I threw, and this is an Irv A special. I threw mashed potatoes into the ziploc, squished it flat, sealed it. So here's the trick. You squish the mashed potatoes in the Ziploc bag down to a layer, like maybe like three eighths of an inch thick. And then I threw it into a pan of simmering water, like a frying pan of simmering
+
+[15:27] water, and they heat it up like lickety split without, you know, having any burn spots on the bottom. They were hot all the way through and I didn't lose any moisture off of them. So it was perfectly reheated mashed potatoes, which are pain. It's a pain to reheat mashed potatoes and not having turned to crap. So I did that. So anyway, and you could do that in the immersion circulator if you already had it running. In fact, what we do now in classes is we make our mashed potatoes, uh, you know, in advance, like in the morning, pack them into zips or into, uh, vacuum bags, but not without the
+
+[15:54] vacuum, meat gets, could vacuum them. And then, uh, at the last, you know, couple of minutes, we squish it real thin, throw it into the circulator bath and reheat
+
+[16:01] it, and they're perfect. Because don't you hate when you're making mashed potatoes? Do you ever make mashed potatoes? Don't you hate it when you're always worried about getting them done at the last minute? You're like, oh my god, do my potatoes? Do they're going to get cold or then you have to stick them over a water bath to keep them hot and the water bath boils
+
+[16:15] over? It's always a pain. Mashed potatoes are always a pain to finish off when you're finishing off the rest of your food. At least if you care about them the way I do. I don't know, maybe nostalgia is one of those people that beats the hell out of me in a KitchenAid until they turn into a soupy gloop. Are you one of those people? My mom hand mashes them. So there's all the leftover chunks of potato that didn't get right. She's making the vegan face. So you don't like the leftover chunks of No, not at all. I mean, look, because I am who I am and people, like my chef friends would make fun of me if I didn't. I used the food mill to make the mashed potatoes, but honestly, I think one of the easiest things, if you don't have a food mill, the potato
+
+[16:48] ricers work really, really well. The problem is, is I always burn my hand when I use them. You know what I'm talking about, the potato riceers? They don't leave any little chunklets. They're pretty good. I also diverge from most of my chef friends who use they use only butter. But I don't, like, I don't want to, look, people are going to call me and tell me I'm a jerk, but I'm not one of these guys. I feel like I need to put so much freaking butter in that I can actually lubricate the potatoes entirely with butter alone. So I actually add cream and butter. What about you, Stas? Yeah, we add milk. Alright, that's for suckers. But, like, I add cream and butter, but people are like, why do you want to add cream? Why do you want to add all that water? just going to ruin it. Just add more butter. But I don't really want, like, you know, like the Robichon potatoes that are like half butter. And I don't really necessarily, I don't need
+
+[17:28] that. You know what I mean? I don't know, it's not my thing. So I make sure of cream and butter. Throw in the Ziploc and keep it hot. So those are some more things to do with your immersion circulators, and I spent hardly any time talking about the venison, but that's life in the big city. Let's go to our 1st commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[18:06] I've been holding that so long I've been sleeping all alone. No, I miss you. I've been hanging on the phone, I've been sleeping, I'm alone, I want
+
+[18:24] to peace with... Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh
+
+[18:30] Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.
+
+[18:46] It's starting in my dream, now long. And welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling all your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-49721, 28. Let the record show that vegan face was originated on this show. When everybody else starts using that. Hey, you made you vegan face. You think it's going to catch on, definitely. If Jack has anything to do with it, he will. He'll get all the hosts, all the hosts of all the shows. By the way, today is a it's literally Roberta's is a one-man Jack Insley show today. Jack Insley being our intrepid engineer here. Roberta's is shut down for the day because the entire staff is off racing go-karts in New Jersey. Is this true or false? Correct. I spoke to the chef of Roberta's Carlo. Uh, couple weeks ago when I was at the farm and he told me this was going to happen. He didn't tell me I was going to be on a Tuesday. And here's the thing. They have a no, they have a no drinking well on the go-kart policy, which is very wise. Very wise. Do you think that's wise, Jack? With them yeah. Yeah, yeah, no drinking and go karting. So, but they have apparently. And I don't know how this shook out. They have a no. It's close track, by the way, folks, close track. They have no getting on the go-kart drunk policy. So the Roberta's idea was to get everyone shellacked on the bus ride down. That makes sense. Yes. So my prediction for the fight is pain as Clever Lang would say for all of you, Rocky 3 fans out of the audience. Well, I'll be making your Margan salad, so hopefully it's good. Yeah, Jack went and fired up the pizza oven so that I've never seen his place, Santi. crazy, right? Spooky. Yeah, I was like slamming on the door because I can't be bothered to read things that are around
+
+[20:34] me, like signage. And so like the door said, you know, call Jack if you need to get in, but I didn't see it. Okay. This, by the way, you know what sucks? This is our Halloween episode, and we didn't think about anything to do for Halloween. I forgot that Halloween's on the Monday. Did you guys celebrate on Tuesday? It's a little late to celebrate for Halloween on Tuesday. No one gives a crap about Halloween after it's over. By the way, my son says I say crap too much. Anyway, speaking up that my younger son. My older son, who's obsessed with the MTA, and all things trained. So if he doesn't want to be on them, wants to be an, he wants to be a Metro North ticket taker, i.e. conductor this year. Try to go buy a Metro North hat, folks. Metro North is our commuter railroad, try to. Please. Nastasia, who's a genius at this sort of thing. So like if I want to find, by the way, if I want to find you, whoever you are, like she will find you, get your personal number and or your assistant number and start hounding them. So please don't like ask me to get her on your case because she will track you down. Found a uh, found a conductor hat and I have a little miniature conductor's hat. I think it might even be too small for my 10 year old. I didn't think there were human beings this small. I don't think they're supposed to fit on your head. Don't they just wear it like approached? They're not freaks. They're human beings who are taking tickets. They wear this as their as their hat. Does it fit around? Yes, it's a hat. Oh my god. Oh my god. All right, anyway, so I guess we will tell you stories of Halloween, but I wish we could get a Halloween. Please, someone call in with a Halloween question to 718-497-2128. All right. Okay. Hey, Nastasia and Dave. Thanks for answering our question on bagel cocktails. Sam and I work together. So it was just one group of people trying to work bait make bagel cocktails, not that the entire world is suddenly interested in bagel cocktails, which would be quite
+
+[22:18] strange. And we talked about sending in a question, and we both ended up sending in the question. Anyway, we enjoy the show and it's been hugely helpful in exploring new ideas and techniques. Best Johnny Hunter from the Underground Food Collective. Well, that's great, but did the bagel cocktail work? Well, they sent that the day after. Oh, so they didn't have time to try it. Maybe. All right. Okay, another follow-up. Hi, Nastasia and Dave, this is from Andrew. Does someone else write in this or is just Andrew Rudd this in? Andrew. Okay. In episode 58, I like that people know what episode it is, because I have no idea. iTunes. Yeah, iTunes, iTunes. By the way, check this check this out. iTunes, right? Apparently, they will not tell you. I'm trying to figure out like whether or not anyone's listening to this program or not, right? So, I'm like, Jack, can you call up the iTunes people, and figure out, like,
+
+[23:05] whether anyone is downloading this, and iTunes won't give out that information. Isn't that crazy? Does that make any dang sense? No. It makes no dang sense, right? Nothing. makes no sense. Okay. In episode 58, Dave wondered what temperature modern cuisine calls for for cooking gooey duck, low temperature. And they list it as barely cooked. According to their best bet chart, they prefer 50 degrees Celsius for 30 minutes. Okay, in that same episode, low temp snails are mentioned, and the same chart in modern cuisine recommends 68 degrees C for 5 hours for a tender braised snail.
+
+[23:36] I hope this helps, and thanks for the great show. I've learned a great deal from listening. Thanks. Um, Andrew, uh, before I get, let me finish this before I finish
+
+[23:44] out when Andrew said. Okay, I, like I said last week, I think. I've had, um, um, Mira
+
+[23:49] Vold and Youngs and, you know, Maxims and Grants. That's the whole crew there, or some of the whole crew there. I've had their Gooey Duck, Gooey Duck being the very Manly Clam, we'll say. Is that fair? It's very... It's a very, very manly clam. Anyway, yes. And so, um, it's the most suggestive food, I think, that we... It would be a good time to press pause and Google Gooey Duck. Yes, Belgeo duck. pronounced gooey duck. Anyhoo, like the good folks at the... They did not. By the way, Nastasia just admits on the air that she is a regular, I don't know where she finds the
+
+[24:27] time because, you know, I don't know, but she... What do you have against the rest of their program? It's crap Wow. Calling out Hoda and Kathy Lee. don't care what we think. Anyway, I used to watch Kathy Lee back in the day when she was with the Regis. Regis and Kathy Lee. bringing it back. I used to be, man, the summer before I, the summer I graduated college. I did exactly 3 things. I worked on my 1976 Pontiac Bonneville, right? Bondoing the quarter panel so that I could get it pass inspection and making sure that it worked, paid $400 for that car. Best $400 I ever spent. Car got exactly 10 miles to the gallon, whether it was on the city or the highway, like a couple of months into owning it. James Brown tape got jammed into the tape deck and I couldn't ever get it out again. So whenever the car was running, James Brown was playing. We eventually spray painted a gold and zip tied bullhorns on the front of that thing. Thing was amazing. I love that car. Really good pickup. Anyway, so I did that. I deep fried potatoes and habanero chili rienos because I was training myself for heat eating at the
+
+[25:33] time, and I watched Regis and Kathy Lee. and ABC's daytime soaps. And that was basically it. That was the whole summer. My wife was like, what the hell? I mean, she wasn't my wife at the time. She was my girlfriend at the time, but, you know, she was almost like, man, what the hell is wrong with this guy? What am I gotten into? Anyway, so, uh, Dare Gooey Duck is incredibly delicious. They cut it into like kind of long noodles, and they cook it in a CVAP oven, I guess, at 50 degrees C, which is just warming it, really, for 30 minutes, and it's just fantastic. Very, very tender. But they cook their snails at a much higher temperature. So 68. Once you go to 68, I mean, I don't see why you don't just take it all the way up to 85. I don't really see what the big name. I don't know. Id like to try it. I like to try the difference between a 68 Celsius snail for 5 hours and just like a regular simmer in a bag, let's
+
+[26:19] say, for, you know, for like 2 hours, see what the difference is. But if that's what they say works, I'm sure they tried it. I'm sure they had one of the 15 cooks that was working on that thing sitting there with like snail after snail for days figuring it out. right? Isn't that pathetic that we don't own a copy of modernist cuisine? Don't even. It's pathetic. It's pathetic. Okay. Andrew was also wondering if we are still interested in some help for blog
+
+[26:42] posts and I would gladly lend my time and effort. Okay, here's the thing. I have come to a realization, people. And that is, I have, look, I have roughly 15 to 20 blog posts in my head that need to get written.
+
+[26:55] Right? Roughly 15 to 20 that I just don't have time. I'm just being pulled in all kinds of different directions. Uh, I think at this point, if there are people out there and they would have to go through Nastasia and give a sample of their writing or whatnot. But if there are other people who think that they want to write cooking
+
+[27:13] issues style posts, meaning pedantic. You know, but like, you know, kind of, you know, the style. If you've ever been on the blog, cookingissues.com, you know the style. The style is what it is. It's cooking issue style stuff. I think at this point we could probably open it, open it up. do you think? This is the 1st I've heard of this. So we would have guest writers? Yeah. I mean what do you think? I mean, now that we're going to own it. That's it. We own it. we can do whatever we want, the people who are writing for it no longer have to be working for the French culinary. I mean, actually, I'm just considering between, I mean, look, look, you want to, does anyone care about this? Here's the post. what's school going to say? What are they going to say? They don't read it anyway. All right. So, like, look, I have a, I have a bunch of clarification posts on uh, Kiso Salt and
+
+[28:01] Kaiosan, which are 2 new clarification aids that I use. I have a way to clarify now, things like lime juice to get pretty good yields without a centerfuge, even. I've worked on it without a centrifuge. But grapefruit juice. It no problem. I'll be very close to getting centrifugelist clarification for lime juice. Got to write about this. I have to write. There's a bunch of, uh, like book review things I have to write on, um, there's just a whole boatload, stuff, more infusion techniques I have to write about. I mean, there's just a bunch of stuff that I have to write about. I just don't have time. And you know what? Maybe this. Maybe it's not even stuff that I necessarily want to write about. If someone else can come up with a cooking issue style post on their own thing, right? And by the way, I'm not, if you have an idea, and you can write it up in a cooking
+
+[28:43] issue is kind of a way. I'm not going to take credit for your idea. I just don't feel that that's appropriate. Do you? No, yeah, no, you're right. But yeah. It needs to be appropriate posts. I don't want some dummy. writing something, you know? Hey, Nastasi just called all of you guys dummies. No, but I'm just imagining this stuff we'll get. Is she making the vegan face? She's making the vegan face. I'll tell you something, like, well, that's why we call you the hammer noustache. Hey, you you know, you are the you're the hammer. You get to the side like whether or not this stuff... what I would do before you go bother writing it is I would propose to Nastasia what it is you think is an interesting. Look at Francis Lamb's writing. We really like him. I love him. that style of writing. Francis Lamb, who now he's at guilt. He's at his new company, guilt. He's not at salon anymore. The guilt, the blog. Anyway. Anyway, so I'm open, Andrew. And we had someone else calling the same thing. Okay. Another question. I just had a disaster occur, and I'm trying to backtrack my steps to where I screwed
+
+[29:42] up, and this is coming in from Marty Eagle Rock. What? We have a caller? I'll come back. Oh, we lost him. We did. We got him. Hello, caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, I just had a question. So, you know, it's pumpkin carving season. Oh, Halloween question. Yes. All right, go ahead. Halloween question. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had anything special that you do with all the inside outs that you just scoop out and then you just kind of throw it
+
+[30:07] away. Is there anything you could use that for, food wise? I mean, other than the seeds? Yeah. For using the seeds, I don't know. Maybe you couldn't eat the seeds. See, no, the seeds are incredibly delicious. Now, I wish I had the recipe for it. Uh, the, my kids' babysitter makes the best pumpkin seeds I've ever had. We're just talking about this yesterday. And, um, and, you know, when she said she was going to make pumpkin
+
+[30:29] seas. like, yeah, whatever. Come on, like you're going to make a pumpkin seed that I think is delicious. she hasn't normally cook that much. You know what I mean? Her pumpkin seeds are freaking delicious. And she, she removes the pulp from the pumpkin seeds, like washes them clean, and then squeezes uh, uh, lemon or lime juice over them, lets them sit for a little while, and then roast them off in an oven with
+
+[30:47] salt, and they are freaking good on a regular pumpkin. They're delicious. I've tried them with the kobocha squash and the seeds are a little bit thicker, so they're not as good, but I try to get my babysitter's recipe for the seeds for
+
+[30:59] later, for next week, but they're fantastic. Now, the pulp, I don't know whether you can use the pulp for anything. You ever use the pulp for anything? I mean, I'm sure you could cook it. I'm sure you could cook it and like make like a kind of a brothy thing out of it and then like press it out. The strings themselves. I don't know how well they break down. But the seeds by far and away, you should never throw away those pumpkin seeds because they're incredibly delicious.
+
+[31:22] All right. Well, thank you so much. Hey, thank you and happy Halloween. Nice. Halloween question. I wish had a spooky sound effect to play out. Can you make one? I'll try. How's that? It was good. Spooky? All right. I just had a disaster occurred. This is Marty and Eagle Rock. I just had a disaster, Colonel. trying to backtrack my steps to where I screwed up. I love questions like this, right? stuff because I like because I screw up all the time and I'm always having to backtrack. Um, I had 2 hunks of cross rib roast. I blowtorch the surface of each and toss them into bags with olive oil, garlic, and fresh rosemary, and sealed them up with a home vacuum sealer, a couple of mistakes there, blowtorch.
+
+[32:04] I'm not a big fan. he hasn't gotten the mistake yet. But I'm not a big fan of blow torches. Um, unless, look, I mean, I'm assuming, Marty, that you maybe you have one of the Iwatanis, which is one of the little, uh, the little butane powered, uh, blowtorches, but I find that like the average torch that we use, which are the big old propane ones that are used for, uh, when you're, you know, I don't know, what's the word I'm looking for, doing
+
+[32:25] plumbing, like a plumbing torch, right? They leave what I call a propane taste. We talked about this recently on the air, propane taste. And I think it has to do with the chemical that they add to the propane so that you can smell it when it's leaking, right? Because you don't want it to leak and explode and all that stuff. And there are butane torches that don't have that smell because either they do a better job at combusting that smell or because there's less of the adulterants in the butane because you
+
+[32:49] use a butane that you use for pipeliders and cigar lighters. And those customers are very sensitive about that smell ruining their cigar, which is why old school suckers don't use lighters.
+
+[32:58] They use matches to light their cigars, right? Right? Okay, I don't smoke cigars, but I'm just making this up. Anyway, um, so, uh, I'm not a huge fan of
+
+[33:08] of torches in general, especially on fat because fat tends to pick up that flavor more than uh, lean parts, which I've done the test on. I'm a bigger fan of just, you know, putting a
+
+[33:20] sear on that thing in a frying pan. If you can't do that, fine, go ahead and blowtorch is going to work. That's just my thoughts on blowtorching. I recently bought a blowtorch at the Home Depot that is a propane torch that has a much bigger flame on it.
+
+[33:33] It's a real monster. It's called like a wide angle, like a wide flame. I'm in the process, another blog post. I mean, the process of working on it to see whether or not that thing has less of a torture taste, whether it has a better combustion, and also whether it can do a better job browning because it's not as much of a point source of
+
+[33:47] heat. It much wider. So I'm looking into that. Anyway, okay, this wasn't the question. We're back on Mari's question now. So he bagged them with olive oil, garlic, and fresh rosemary, and seal them up with a home vacuum sealer. So far, so good. One I cook for my parents, uh, 2 days at 130 degrees, uh, which is 544 or rare. The other, I toss it in the freezer. The 1st one turned out great. I salted it and seared it off, perfect meat. By the way, good job not salting it beforehand. The recent blog post we had is that if you salt the meat beforehand, it's going to taste cured. Uh, especially on a long cook like that, it's not going to taste like a fresh steak. So, good job salting it afterwards and searing it off. Perfect meat. Good. I'm glad. A couple of weeks later, I defrosted the other hunk, and tossed it into the
+
+[34:30] sou into the immersion circulator into the, or whatever he's using to cook at 130 degrees, and cooked it for 36 hours. At 36 hours, he noticed an air pocket growing in the bag. He was worried there was some anaerobic nastiness happening, and sure enough, when I opened it up, it smelled like rancid zombie vomit. There's some Halloween for you. Rancid zombie vomit. So rancid zombie vomit. Zombie, zombie, zombies eat only human brains, right? don't know. Yeah, Z Jack, correct? have to do some fact checking on that first. Yeah, fact check. I believe, well, maybe not exclusively, but their favorite thing to eat is... Yeah,
+
+[35:05] seems like Google says they eat brains. Yeah, human brains, and the reason they don't just eat other zombie brains. The reason they need human brains is because the way you become a zombie is to have a zombie eat your brain. Therefore, therefore, you don't have the brain to be eaten by once you're a zombie, so they need to search out fresh humans for their brains. See, this is why it works. Anyway, um, So Rancy's rancid zombie vomit would be like several day old human brains that have been digested by zombies, is what we're talking about for a
+
+[35:33] snow. So i.e. bad. I dumped it and served leftover lasagna instead. That's a good call. What question is, where did I go wrong? Could I have killed guests had I served it and what should I do differently next time? Thanks, Marty. I don't think that, uh, look, obviously you did the right thing. Anytime a bag blows up with air and you don't know why, you should throw it away. Uh, because there's probably clearly bacteria growing in there that are causing
+
+[35:59] uh, the bag to inflate. The fact it smelled like rancid zombie vomit, right? And usually, um, it, and it does smell freaking awful because I've had it happen before. It's like, to me, it's not zombie vomit as much as it is kind of blue cheese mixed with zombie vomit,
+
+[36:17] like kind of a blue cheese, sauerkraut, socks, feet, zombie
+
+[36:21] vomit, mix, right? But it's, um, it's off putting. Let's put it that way. Uh, certain like, uh, you know how some cheeses taste delicious with smell of death? It's kind of like that too. Anyway, what's happening in there is you're not going to kill anyone, most likely? But what that is, there are different lactic acid, bacteria, lactobacilli, and other bacteria like that that are growing in that bag. And what happened is this. You had a large piece of meat. You might have had a portion of the interior of the meat that had gotten contaminated, like a
+
+[36:57] knife or something got stuck into it, or it's just the stuff on the outside, and maybe the meat was resting against the bottom of the circulator, right? And you put something in frozen, or you thought it, and as you thought it, let's say you thought it before you put it in the circulator. Remember, freezing doesn't kill bacteria. It kills maybe a certain portion of them, but it's not a method to kill bacteria. So the bacteria are basically in suspended animation. It takes a long time to thaw out a piece of meat. This is why they have you thaw meat in the refrigerator typically, even though it takes a whole hell of a long time. They don't want the meat to basically be growing bacteria while it's thawing out. The reason it takes a long time to thaw meat is because water is not nearly as like bound water inside of meat is not nearly as good a heat conductor as the ice.
+
+[37:44] So once it starts thawing, it actually becomes kind of insulated relative to the part that's not thawed. And so it takes a lot longer to thaw something than it does to freeze it, which is why things take forever to
+
+[37:56] thaw, and even though you've had that turkey in the fridge for, you know, 3 days, the inside of it's still frozen. You've noticed that, right? Nastasha? Yeah. So, uh, one, you don't necessarily have to thaw it, you can thought in the circulator, um, at kind of load cooking temp in
+
+[38:12] that in that area, right? And then you're killing bacteria right from the get go without growing some at the beginning. The other problem is, if there's some bacteria in the middle of it, and it takes hours for the meat to come up to temperature, and it can take hours and hours and hours, especially you're right at the line
+
+[38:28] there. You're at 50, uh, like 130 is like 544. If it's 4 degrees different. So if you have a big roast and it sits in the bottom of the pan and there's stuff underneath that's contaminated that hasn't been killed yet, and that part is even 4 degrees cooler because there's not water circulation underneath of it, you're going to be growing bacteria in
+
+[38:48] that, and then the gas will come up around. It'll form a bubble and it'll start floating, right? So, and have to diagnose exactly where you went wrong. Um, one, beware that at those close temperatures, you should, what you should do is take the bag and probably simmer it like for like a minute just to kill everything that's on the surface layer and then put it in and you're not
+
+[39:08] going to have a problem. You're gonna want to make sure the bag is up off the bottom of your circulator tank so that there's not a place where you're like 4 degrees
+
+[39:14] different, at 4 degrees different. You're growing evil bacteria in there and you don't want that to happen. Another thing is making sure that you don't have any contamination on the inside, making sure that your thought times aren't too long. Uh, but you, you, you definitely put yourself in a situation where a chunk of the meat was in the range probably between 40 and 50 Celsius,
+
+[39:36] right? So below 100 and whatever it is, 20 and change, 20, you know, 8 or 7 or whatever it is, and change where bacteria are growing and you grew lactic acid bacteria. You probably wouldn't have killed anyone, but I guarantee you the entire piece of meat was
+
+[39:49] repulsive, so it's a good job to throw it away. Um, right? Yeah? All right. And uh, do you have anything else to say? Um, no. No? You have nothing? Pupkiss? All right. Well, this has been the Halloween episode of Cooking Issues. We'll come back with all of our Halloween stories. Happy Halloween and happy trick or treating. Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
+
+[40:37] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archives programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[40:52] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. The following is a public service announcement from food karma. To kick off the New York City Meet Week in style, meet with a twist, we'll bring together the best chefs and mixologists for a cocktail food pairing party on November 7th, from 6 to 10
+
+[41:18] p.m. at City Winery. Meet with a twist features 10 cocktails paired with 10 chef selections highlighting
+
+[41:23] local, sustainably grown meat such as duck, lamb, chicken, pork, beef, bison, and ostrich.
+
+[41:29] The party will launch a week's worth of events throughout the city that celebrate the slow food
+
+[41:33] movement, bringing sustainable meats to our tables. Again, that's November 7 from 6 to 10 p.m. at City Winery. Updates, tickets, and more information are available at MeetWeekNYC.com.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 out of the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Brooklyn, New York. Join today, as always, witness Dasha, the Hammer Lopez, but also special and unknown guests. We didn't know he was going to be here. He was here for another radio show, which is pre-recorded, which is why it's okay that we're going to steal him. But Alex Talbot, Alexander Tyler from Ideas and Food, the one and only, is in the studio with us today. Hello, Alex. Hello, sir. are you Doing well, doing well. So calling all of your questions, and if you're a chump sucker, if you don't call in and ask Alex your questions now, too, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Nastasia, how was your Halloween, by the way? Are you going to ask people to text us? She's, by the way, folks, just so you know, Nastasia is typing on her computer. I'm doing work for Dave, folks. Yes, but it's during the radio shows. Anyway. That's how busy you are. Are you going to tell people to tweet if they're listening so that we can keep track of how many listeners we actually
+
+[1:24] have? That's not going to help. Like, if I listened, I wouldn't even know how to tweet. It's not like I'm going to set up. Nastasia's trying to figure out how many people. This is an ongoing thing. We're trying to figure out whether anyone's actually listening to this thing or not. And, you know, we know a couple of you are because you're writing questions. Thank you. But iTunes is making it impossible for us to... Or they can email me. If they listen. If they listen. Okay, you're going to be swamped with all 3 emails. Anyway, today's show is sponsored again by the modernist pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies and only a few grams are needed for application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time,
+
+[2:07] money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocarloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson is his team and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. And by the way, we asked last week about this and someone from, I believe, New Zealand sent it and said it was like under 10 bucks. It was like 5 or 8 bucks or something to ship, whatever it is they wanted to New Zealand. So we were like, They got it in like 7 days or something. Yeah, so we're like, hmm, all right, nice. Nice. All right. So it's no, it's no BS. It's no horse hockey. They will ship it anywhere in the world at inexpensive cost. Anyway, modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry, now carries iota kappa, and lambda, lambda carrot game. And what the heck do you use lambda carrigan for? You ever use that, Alex? Chocolate milk. Yep. I mean, like, do you find a need to stabilize chocolate milk often for yourself? Not really. We actually pass over it all the time. We just used a lot of chocolate. Yeah. That's it. In other words, like, from a cook's perspective, why would you want to use a land of carradin? Just because you're cool. So, folks, Kerogen and seaweed derivatives. And the deal is, is that there's a bunch of different kinds. There's Iota, kappa, and lambda, the 3 main different kind of
+
+[3:20] kerragidans, and they differ based on, I believe it's the sulfate bridges along the backbone, how they work.
+
+[3:26] Kappa Carragin is the one that's closest to Agar and its behavior. It's very brittle. Iota is very, very stretchy and elastic. And lambda is kind of non-gelling, or we think of it as non-gelling, but it's used as an embodying agent in chocolate milk. No carrogin mix is pure there because they're natural products. So, you know, capital will have a bit of the other 2 and and vice versa, but things are primarily, they're sold as primarily
+
+[3:52] Iota kappa and Landa. I know many chefs, excuse me, chefs who use Iota and kappa, but I don't know any chefs that use lamb, at least not that they've told me. Anyway, fans of cooking issues that place an order of $35 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of Iota Carragin and. Simply use the promo code. CI, as in cooking issues, 60 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. I mean, Iota, mainly puddings, right? I mean, I mean, that's it. It's also one of the only hydrocholides that's self-healing. Oh, right, true. So there's basically, when you break a hydrocoloid by shearing it, it never again comes back together. It's sheer irreversible when you break the gelatin. In iota, they will actually, the gel will heat up. Now, if you are, if you use iota to do a hard, like when I say a hard gel, one that doesn't kind of break easily like a pudding, it's kind of a weird texture.
+
+[4:46] It is, what's that, uh, that stuff that used to get on, uh, shoot. I used to buy it as a kid. Rubber cement? It's like short rubber. but softer, but no, there's, ah, shoot. There was a candy of sorts. You know what? It's kind of like, is you know those stretchy hands that you buy and you slap them across the
+
+[5:03] room? You like fling them across the room and they stretch out and stick to the wall and then snap back and hit you in the
+
+[5:07] face. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like that, but without the sticking and hitting you back in the face thing. But, yeah. But most people don't use iota in levels that produce that kind of behavior. They using it in kind of pudding levels. And then you can you can put the pudding into another container, like a ramekin or something like that. And then, you know. Yeah, I mean, it benefits from that little bit of kappa to give it just a touch of structure. So, you know, when you cut your spoon through it, you can actually see it as opposed to just, you know, the blob, which goes back on itself. Right. And the reason, by the way, that people use carraginans in milk-based things is because there's a synergism between milk and carragin. And so if you would normally, to get, you have to use, depending on the actual one you use, but it's something on the order of one fifth of the amount of carragin that you would have to use,
+
+[5:59] to thicken a milk-based system, as you would, excuse me, to thicken a water-based system with the same
+
+[6:05] carraginen. So, you can use very, very small amounts. Industrially, this is good because it means that you're using less product, which saves you money. From a cooking perspective, the less of a thickening agent you have to use, the less chance you have, the less opportunity there is for that ingredient to
+
+[6:22] alter, mar, or mask, the flavor that you're dealing with. Certainly. I mean, there's a couple other things. When we talk about it a lot, but it's the, you want to use the least amount of anything possible, be it salt or kerogen or sugar. So to get the desired results. Uh, you can also add the calcium to, uh, because it's iota is calcium reactant where
+
+[6:44] is kappa is potassium. So you can, if you don't have a lot of milk. Just add some calcium. But you know what? You know what I never know? I never know. Depends on who gives you the product, but I know like certain of the kappas are pre-formulated with the potassium salts in it. It double depends. A lot of TIC gum stuff is basically idiot proof. Right. By the way, folks, this is why this is, I mean, like, I love what Martin Larish from Kymalis has done for the world by creating his hydrocollage recipe index.
+
+[7:14] And by the way, he's getting better about going back and and, well, your recipes are in there. A lot of our, yeah, but the, um, the one
+
+[7:22] thing he did was remove a lot of the brand names. And what I always tell people is that if you are going to specify a recipe, you should always specify the brand that you
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+[7:31] use. Because if you just say kappa caragin, and 1st of all, there could be anything natural like this,
+
+[7:37] like could come in a wide variety of chain lengths, for instance, there's wide variety of properties, but also could or could not have the setting salts added to them already.
+
+[7:45] I mean, it's... I mean, if you look at a lot of CP Kelco stuff, they've got CP Kelco and different variation, but
+
+[7:51] Jelen, they've got JJ, which RJ has sodium citrate in it, which is a squestrian, which allows it to be easier for
+
+[7:58] gelling, but whole other ball game. Right. So always say the brand you're using. Anyway, we have a caller, a caller. You're on the air. Dave. Howdy. This is Mike. I'm a commercial brewer and I'm interested in possibly doing some molecular stuff with
+
+[8:13] beer, and I'm wondering, what you think? I'm thinking maybe like, you know, doing a black and tan, but have one beer,
+
+[8:21] have maybe some, some alginate in it. So when the black, you know, it would be more like a lava lamp, then a
+
+[8:27] black, traditional black and tan, or maybe making some little alginate balls with something sweet to go in, maybe a sour
+
+[8:35] beer, so they'd float around. What do you think about that? You mean as a commercial thing? Uh, yeah, just as a way to serve beer, you know, in, uh, you know, just in a fun way, working the molecular kind of stuff into, into beer. Do you think you could have one beer that had something in it that would, you know, do more like a lava lamp
+
+[8:55] in a glass or, uh, I mean, the way lava lamps work. The way lava lamps work is basically, it's an oil and water phenomenon, right? So you're taking you're taking 2 admissible like liquids. Basically, once a solid, it's a wax, really. And you're heating it, and when it heats, it floats up and then cools and goes down. That's why it looks that it looks so awesome. I mean, the real question with a beer is how would you get the, how would you get the 2 beers to
+
+[9:21] be to not mix unless you had an envelope around them? So then that comes to your 2nd question is, could you do something with alginate? And the problem with algernate? There's a couple problems I have with alternate. One, I don't think it tastes good. It doesn't taste good. It makes things taste less than the original. You might as well not use it. It's a flavor thief. I'm going to steal that free. I'm going to write it down and it's now stolen. There you go. you. The other problem from a commercial standpoint. And people have made, obviously, people make balls of things. The famous the famous ball commercial ball drink is orbits, right? Orbits is geland-based. Now, the problem with orbits was the beads were solid. They weren't liquid. It's very hard to do a liquid-based thing in a commercial way that's going to last a long time. By the way, we're in a construction zone, if you hear that hammering in the building. That is actually Dave building a new roto app. Yeah, exactly. So, but you're going to have problems with color stability in these
+
+[10:20] situations. So most gel systems are somewhat porous. And so over a fairly short period of time, you're gonna get color bleaching out. Now, the guys who do this professionally with orbits took care of this by having, uh, the, basically the
+
+[10:33] relative levels of, the things are going to change the osmotic balance of the liquids very, very, very close to identical.
+
+[10:41] so that they got very little color bleed over time. But you're going to have huge problem in a black and tan kind of a situation, keeping the tan and the black portions together, or it's really kind of like brown and light brown. It's not really black and tan and brown. kind of coffee. Yeah. So you could mean like, you could, look, it's obvious you could do, here's something you could, another problem is, is if the center liquid is carbonated, right, you're going to have problems with air pockets developing on the inside of your membrane show, which, you know, I've done it with carbonated
+
+[11:12] liquids, and you definitely get an air pocket. Some people are not an air pocket, carbon dioxide pocket. And some people use this like on purpose. They do this on purpose. But, um, But it's a problem from a commercial standpoint. So you'd have to probably move to a still-based inner liquid. And then I would do the reverse. I would do a reverse verification, and you can use something nicer. You could do pectin, which is like pretty nice texture. You would basically form your liquid, freeze it in a larger format, so you get a more lava lampy thing. And then you'd set it, you'd set like an envelope of pectin around it. You could use alogenet as a 1st test because it's a lot easier. Jell-in actually is our go to. For for that. For all encapsulation. All right, you have to use deionized water and like go crazy otherwise. You don't, you see equestrants? sequester the hell out of it? Yeah, so we actually talk about it in our book. There's a good plug for our book, ideas and food. There you go, buy it. But we use roughly .5% low asshole gel in and we use .05% sodium hexametophosphate in a water bath. Boom, done. How's your water in your area, though? It's fine, but we've gone to Plano, Texas and done it? And when we did it without adding the little sodium hexometophosphate, we had a disaster. Because they've got crazy calcium water, but with this question in there, and then we just drop everything into it and you get a beautiful skin. And once you get good with it, you can actually lower the amount of gel in in there to point 3% and really get a very
+
+[12:38] Silky's sexy skin. 0.5 of Jellin, low asyl gelin is equivalent to about 0.8.9% agon. Yes, but with the, and also with the sequestion in there, it actually tenderizes, softens it a little bit, it softens it. So it's a really unique gel as an exterior skin. So what I would do is, if you have a vacuum machine, I would take your black, whatever you're going to use is like your stout situation
+
+[13:01] there, and I would decarbonate it in a vacuum machine. Then I would, uh, then I would, um, add some calcium to it because I don't know what the calcium level
+
+[13:11] and beer is, use glucinate, not, uh, not,
+
+[13:15] not chloride because it's horrible. And, uh, then uh, do what Alex suggests, which is get low acele, Jelann, uh, make a solution of that with a sequestered sodium hexametophosph phosphate, a.k.a. shrimp, which you can get, probably a
+
+[13:29] modernest pantry, although I haven't used them. Modest pantry? I haven't. I think via Twitter, we've been referenced to them and Sean. They were here in Brooklyn, right? I have no idea where they are. I think so. If not, I'm promoting the wrong people. Anyway, but do that. And then you might get an interesting effect, lava lamp like where the carbonation, if you use a higher carbonated liquid, like instead of what you would normally use, like an IPA or something like that, and it might float the ball up to the top.
+
+[13:51] Yeah, and if you use that, uh, no, iota carragin and really low, low amount for your encapsulation, the product, it'll actually give you that lava like texture as well.
+
+[14:00] Oh, nice. Well, go check out the books. I'm sure this is in the book. Ideas in food, the book. Perfect. Check it out. All right. Thanks for Kong. We have another caller, caller you were on the air. Hi, um, this question is for Dave and Alex, obviously. Um, I was wondering, what do you, what do you guys think is the best way to cook over the blam? Cook well, I couldn't hear you. A leg a lamp? What is the best way to cook a leg of lamb, according to you guys? What kind of equipment do you have? Um very basic. I'm not extremely experienced. All right, then the best, then clearly, the best way, if you don't have the equipment to do it properly is to bone it out. Roll it flat, remove certain parts of the muscles that aren't
+
+[14:41] going to cook properly, and then quickly grill it. wouldn't you say it or no? I'd give it a yogurt marinade too, just to get the flavor. tenderize it, tenderize it, and give it a quick grill. Just break it into pieces. And you can try and seam it out, but it sounds like that might be a bit of a stretch. So just cut it into smaller pieces. Or get the butcher to seam it out for you. Like, in other words, like, you definitely want that thing to get flat. Leg of Lamb, if you cook it whole, is gonna be tough and overcooked. If any kind of traditional cooking technique. I've never had one that was really done properly. And there are people who like raw blue lamb in the middle, but they're not that many because the texture isn't necessarily good,
+
+[15:17] right? I'm not a blue lamb guy. I actually like it medium rare, even medium is it kind of silkens out a little bit more. Right. So but I would definitely get it as flat as possible. And and as Alex said, break it into pieces and then and then cook it that way. unless do you have a need to serve it whole or you have some sort of like primal cuts dinner that you're
+
+[15:37] going to be doing? No, no, I've been served at home before and it was okay. I've had a lot of people who have grilled it whole, but if that's not the best way to do it, then doesn't really bother me. Or slow roasted. Yeah, maybe whole grilling gives you some things that you're not going to get any other way. For instance, we all enjoy certain overcooked pieces of meat that are crunchy and kind of burnt
+
+[16:00] and delicious on the edges of things, right? It just renders, in my opinion, like those whole cut things, unless you're very good at it, and you have a two-part flame and you're cooking it over a high, and then you move it to lower, vice versa, however you believe, or slow roasting. It's very easy to get a large portion of the meat that's kind of dry and overcooked, especially the non-fatty areas.
+
+[16:23] Fatty areas can take a lot more abuse because fat is delicious when it's high
+
+[16:27] cooked. The other problem with the leg, like is the leg is composed of a bunch of different muscles and they don't all operate. They don't all, when I say operate, cook the same way. And so, um, this is my problem with, you know, there's certain people who are very famous and whose product is good. I had it, who are big, big believers in what's called whole hog cookery when it comes to cooking pigs. I am not a believer in this. I've done certain tests to try and cook whole animals properly, but in general, unless
+
+[16:57] you are willing to go through Herculean efforts to try and have all muscles cook when they're still attached to the animal.
+
+[17:03] Different muscles wanna be cooked differently. That's just the way it works. The whole hog, aren't they? It's all chopped up together at the end, isn't it? Yes. And that's how they cover up the fact that the loin doesn't taste good. So wait, so it's whole hog, but we're going to put it all together. So it's really blended hog. It's really, yeah, it really is blended hog. not whole hog. It would be much better if they took it into pieces and cooked each piece the way they wanted to, then chopped it up and put it back together again. So whole hogs a farce. But not in a good, not like a stuffing way. Not like in a stuffing way, but more as in like a false false pretense. Yeah, I just don't think it's, I don't think it's a goal we should aspire to. I don't think it's, you know, and look, I love Ed Mitchell. Do you know what I mean? How can you not love Ed Mitch? I love Ed Mitchell, but I just don't necessarily see why I should aspire to attempt to create something that's good
+
+[17:45] by, and it is good, but I just don't see why I would attempt to create something that's good that way by doing something that's against what the meat wants to do, which is the loin wants to be cooked for not a long time.
+
+[17:55] And the, and the, you know, the cuts that have a lot of connected tissue want to be cooked for a longer time. And then mix them together if you want. Crisp up the skin, mix them together. So basically cook each part separately and then bring it together at the end. I'm a huge believer in cooking each piece of meat the way it wants to be cooked. Do you have a conversation with the meat first? you like a meat whisperer? I do. I get up. put my ear next to it. Are we helping all the way by with your lamb? Anyway, hopefully this helps with your lamb. Thank you. All right, call her. You're on the air. Oh, they dropped off. thought they dropped? We missed him. Maybe that's our job, Nastasia. See, this is like classic Nastasia. Nostalgia is like, you're answering this person's question. So the next person dropped off. There is no caller. go to break. Oh, go to break. See, Nastasia? Your viciousness is incorrect. This is why we call her the hammer folks, just because she is vicious. Anyway, calling all your questions too. 718-497-2128 718-497-2128.
+
+[18:58] Sugar pie, honey butter. You know that I love you I came up myself. I love you and nobody else In and of my life. go Give me just your picture, love. And I kissed it a thousand times. Or with your eye, I'm coming running to you. Time till you're in run the screen. And there's nothing that I can do
+
+[19:50] Gave up myself. That's the whole life.
+
+[19:58] To the party, but show the party. And welcome back to Cooking Issues,
+
+[20:10] Mistash. How's your Halloween? Fine. What were you? 70s person. Yeah, you were supposed to be a cop, weren't you, or a donut? Cop in a donut, but Mark had to work. Her boyfriend had to work. That too bad. So you were a 70s woman, but I thought you hated like... I wasn't sexy at all. Nastasia, Nastasia, if she was wearing the sexiest outfit in the world, would put a pair of long johns with elephants on underneath it to
+
+[20:32] desexy. This is her MO, folks. Happy Halloween. Oh, by the way, I brought you some sour patch kids because if you ever want Nastasia to like you and you think she's going to hate you, which odds are she will. She meets you. You said if I were a fish if you were fishing for me. Yeah, sour patch. So I have some for her for tonight. What about what about you, Alex? How was your Halloween? It was good. It was my daughter's 1st real big Halloween. How old is she now? She's going to be 3 in December. Nice. was she? She was a cupcake princess? Of course. Really? But you don't like cupcakes, do you? I can eat a cupcake. Really? Yeah, I'll throw throw down the banter against cupcakes, but long and short. I can choke a cupcake down really quickly. Well, because it's small. It's small. It's edible. If it's done right, it's good, but more often than not, cupcakes have a lot of tunneling at them. Well, we have a lot of what? Tunneling. They're just mixed improperly. So they have air tunnels? not my problem. My problem is the incorrect icing to volume ratio. First of all, I like cake. Cake is delicious. See, I like icing. So you'd get along with Aki. Aki likes cake or actually you wouldn't get along with her because you guys would fight over the cake and I could just eat all the icing. Yeah, see, what I like is like a glaze icing. That's weak. Cupcakes. You know what? Okay, we can all agree on this. Anyone that makes a miniature cupcake should be wiped off the face of the earth. Agree. Okay. Except, you know, it's kind of like a miniature cupcake, but are actually good, but only if they're super fresh, it's Mad
+
+[21:53] Lane's. But they're not iced. They're not iced. They're cake. They're cake. But they're a size that's bad. They're a surface to volume ratio that's bad for a cakey thing. And they go quickly. Yeah, they're awful. they're old. Yeah, I mean, they're awful like 30 seconds out of the oven. Yeah, and my here's another question. Do I like black and white cookies only because I grew up eating them or is it are they actually delicious? There's a few good ones out there. But there's a quest form. has that same quest. Because they're basically a semi-staled cake and a cookie form with icing on top, a glaze icing, I might add. And, you know, I grew up because I grew up around New York loving the hell out of them. And it's a better ratio. And if you think about it, it's actually taking the top off of a cupcake, inverting it and putting the glaze on the inside. Yeah, but it's a good tasting icing, not a crap tasting icing. glaze. Well, depends where you go. And most actual black and white glazes are well. Look, if you hand me a black and white cookie that looks like it's got icing on the top that was knifed on and not poured and let
+
+[22:50] to set, I will stab you in the eye with your icing knife, right or no? You will. Yeah, I mean, it's not in black and white at that point. No, it's something frosted. an abomination. It's not iced. It's frosted. Right. Okay. That's fair. All right. So we're going to have to go to some of the, oh, by the way, calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. I'm doing pretty well considering getting over a thing, right? Yeah. Anyway. Did you memorize that? I finally memorized it. Wow. It's good, right? It's not on my It's not on my sheet like I normally used to have it. Okay. Three questions came in from Andrew. One. How can we know Umami exist? Do we have taste receptors committed to these umami specific amino acid? Yes. Yes. The research was done in the early 2000s, like 2000, 2001, 2002. We have taste receptors for Umami. It's no longer a question. It's fact. And also, it's also exciting. I mean, you can trigger those umami receptors on the on your palate. Yeah, and they've looked at it, you know, you know, yeah, crap's real, real deal homie. Okay, two. If you could design, invent a machine without monetary constraint to aid in cookery or cocktail making to create a dish drink method wildly amazing, what would it be? A robot version of myself? I'm kidding. No, what would you do, Alex? Shoot. I'm not sure I need a lot more people, like me, a lot more people that you don't have to tell what you want. It's not that I'm particularly good or bad anything. It's the hardest part when you're cooking anything is conveying your intentions, your intent, right? Not intention. your intent. The hardest, when you're talking to someone, you're like, do it like I want it to get
+
+[24:27] done, and then it doesn't get done what you like the way you want it. It's like a really good chef. What they can really do is get, besides cooking themselves is they can get other people to cook things the way they want them done, right?
+
+[24:37] So it's very, very hard to kind of tell someone what you want them to do. So like, you need a translator. You need we need to build a translator. Yeah, something that I could just walk up to somebody and they would know what it is I wanted them to do. Or just speak into a box and then it tells other people so that it just, you don't have to do it. You speak into it and say, all right, I want X, Y, or Z, and everyone else finally understands it. Yeah, you know, it was even rarer and more awesome is when you say something and someone comes back with something better than your intent.
+
+[25:04] That happens more often not in my world. But, uh, you have any, we'll keep that one on hold. We'll think about that for the rest of the show, any machines that we want that we that are just costing. I mean, there are things. I mean, obviously, like, I love there's, I want a twin screw, uh, twin screw, uh, extruder, right? I don't own one because they're fantastically expensive, but it's a machine that already exists. Sure. You know, I want, there's a bunch of things I would like a super critical CO2 extractor. They're just fabulously expensive. I would like a spray drying column as tall as, you know, as, you know, a barn, but taller even. And it's it's maybe a little hard to store. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. like no monetary constraint. But it's design and vent a machine. I don't have any things that I want to invent that are I'm not doing as a result of monetary constraints, more time constraints in the fact that it's hard for me to. And plus, David Chang will shoot over here with needles and stick them in my eyes if I tell you what we're working on.
+
+[25:59] may happen. Yeah, it might happen anyway. Anyway. Three, can a food saver adequately compress watermelon for dishes like Keller's melon,
+
+[26:07] mango, steak, tartar, our food savers awash, or do they have good use? No, they cannot, in my opinion, and Alex might be different. His opinion might be different from mine. I do not believe a food saver adequately has enough of a vacuum to do a good job at crushing watermelon, the air
+
+[26:24] sacks and watermelon. What do you think? Not in the least. I mean, what we're doing is, and I think that's the, I think the, one of the big issues is is the term compression is is partially misguiding. right? I mean, we're not compressing per se, but we're removing air. Right. So if you don't remove the air, ain't nothing going to happen. You need a good, good vacuum. Now, the cheapest way to get a good vacuum, because I'm assuming you're not going to go buy a couple $1000 vacuum machine, and although I want you to, I don't think you will. I haven't because my wife would kill me if I did that. And you haven't built it yet? Well, okay, not one with a sealer, but what I have done that you can do fairly cheaply is buy a
+
+[26:59] refrigerator or refrigeration vacuum online for like a 100 bucks. You can get a, you know, an oil seal rotary vein vacuum pump that's used to evacuate
+
+[27:08] compressors for refrigeration. Since they need to make a whole boatload of these and people don't like think they're
+
+[27:14] fancy, they don't cost very much. You can get them for like a 100 bucks. Where? eBay. Yeah, get like the good ones like Robin Air is a good brand. There's a couple of good brands out there, some cost more. There's some cheaper ones that are knockoffs. They can, they can, without breaking a sweat, achieve below 10 millibar vacuum. is not horrible at all. Yeah, great. I use one in my Rotov app, for instance, one, I have a better one that can get down to like 4 millibar. But so the, so, and they're pretty fast, which is awesome. So then you, uh, basically you hook a hose, like a rubber hose, uh,
+
+[27:44] 2 and you get a piece of plexiglass at the, at your local, like, Home Depot style place with a rubber
+
+[27:51] seal, sticking on a round bane Marie. Don, stick it on a square one because you will crush it. Uh, and uh, you have a vacuum compression system all in for like 150, 150 bucks in that range. works. Do it. Um, do they have a good used food savers? Sure. They're a good way to package food for low temperature cooking at home. I prefer ziplocs. Um, they're uh, relatively okay for things like coffee. Yeah, right? I mean, we used, you know, before we knew any better, and before we could achieve more, I mean, we used a food saver for a year, when we were out in Colorado, you know, messing with
+
+[28:26] this stuff were out in up in Maine, we used a food saver. That was that's what we could afford. Yeah, I mean, like, it does a decent job of packaging things, and the food saver, if you buy the roll bags, I mean, the one thing I always used it for was like very, very long striped bass because there's no, um, there's no maximum length on a food saver bag as long as it's less than a roll. And so, you know, I would bag like, you know, 36, 40 inch stripers in the 10 inch wide bags. You jam them in. If you tried to pull it out, the fins would rip the bags, but you know, you put them in and you could bag whole fish that way. You could do a school of fish, actually. Yeah, in a row, in a row in a ring. Anyways, they have a use. I like them. I mean, they are, you know, it's my 1st vacuum packaging system. They're also really good at resealing a bag of chips. I have not used it for that. Yeah. And it's actually interesting. You can use the seal bar just for itself if you want to just start sealing thing. Yeah, which you should. I mean, I have a sealer now at home, just a sealer because it's faster. Okay. Yeah. Um, I use a sealer all the time for potato chips. Okay. Uh, oh, MPS, congratulations on the book deal. Thank you very much. We didn't leak that, by the way. That was leaked by the publisher, the fact that I have a book deal, one on cocktails and one on God knows what. Okay, another umami style question from Jason, Dave, traditionally, before combo is used in stocks, we are told to wipe it with a wet cloth. Doing so removes a great deal of white powder found on the surface of the kombu sheet, which I understand are glutamate crystals. Since kombu is generally used for its high concentration of glutamates, why would I want to wipe the
+
+[29:52] surface, glutamate crystals off or glutamate crystals off before using it, seems counterproductive. Man, I agree. I don't wipe. I don't wipe combo. We have a color. I agree. I don't wipe it. I'll take the collar and then we'll go back to it. Caller. You on the air. Hey how you doing? Doing all right. How you doing? This is Amy in California. Howdy. Uh, not last week, but the week before, you posed the question about using the, was it the nitrates and the
+
+[30:20] nitrate for, uh, twin tits? Uh, four. Right. Yeah. Do you have experience in this? Uh, no, I do, however, have uh, a very noticeable sensitivity to nitrates, and
+
+[30:36] if, killing them that way would introduce that into the meat, it would mean that not only can I not have preserved
+
+[30:45] meat, I wouldn't be able to have work at all. Huh. Well, let me see. It's a, it's a, I hadn't thought of that. It's an interesting question. So, Alex, I don't know, like, so there's some research where there's some research where they basically, in order to kill feral
+
+[31:02] hogs, in, I believe it was Australia, New Zealand. to go back and look at it. They would put tablets of nitrites and nitrates around. The pigs would eat it. They don't have the ability in general to reduce the stuff back. And so they
+
+[31:17] basically, they lose their ability to convert, you know, their hemoglobin back into oxygen, or hemoglobin, and they die. So, uh, but they do it in a way that doesn't make them uh, hyper excited. They don't, you know, they don't go crazy. They don't feel like they're being killed. They just pass out. Okay. Okay? So the question is, can this be used for a humane killing method, right? So, and then now the question is, is, well, there are people, and I hadn't thought about this. So thanks so much for calling in. There are people who are sensitive to this sensitive to nitrates and can't have it in cured meats. And the question is, is would it, if it's used as an anesthetic, would it also have an elevated
+
+[31:56] level in the meat? I don't know. That's a very good question. That's an excellent question. Um, You know, it's kind of like, uh, the real question I'd have is what are the levels? You know what I mean? So, like, what levels do you think you're sensitive to? Um, I don't know, but more than one slice of ham. Right. And for the week following, I have difficulty moving my fingers and
+
+[32:26] toes. It's like I've rented arthritis week. I mean, is it similar to like what, like, do you become like cyanotic? Do you go, like, do you have the, like, do you go blue or no? Like, I have no idea. I haven't researched at all. Actually, my, I get, I get swollen to my extremities. So my hands and my feet get swollen. And my points hurt to move. Right, right. Well, again, I don't know anything about this because I haven't researched it. Um, but, but... And I haven't found anything about it. It's just experimental with me. I had weird symptoms, and one of the things that I found out when I took it out of my
+
+[33:05] diet, was that, you know, if, you know, I can't, I can't have bacon for breakfast anymore.
+
+[33:10] And it runs in my family. My mother had problems with it. My sister has problems with it. My brother's in denial. Okay, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I'm definitely going to look into it just because that's the kind of thing I like to look into. But, um, the, the thing is, look, there's a certain amount of small amount of
+
+[33:29] baseline uh, nitrates in and nitrites in things that we consume. That's why they can reduce like a £10000000 of celery down to a powder and use it to false cure bacon, or it's real cure, falsely say that they haven't added nitrates to it. So there's got to be some small level that you're okay with and that's exceeded in whatever you're eating in the form of hand. So the real question is, is what is the increase in muscle muscle content of nitrate in a pig that's been slaughtered this way? I don't know. We'd have to check it out. Yeah, research. Research definitely needs to be done. Someone in the US needs to think it's an interesting problem who has a livestock research. And wants to dive into this one. And wants to dive into this one. But thanks for bringing that to my attention. definitely look into it. Thanks very much. Can I ask you one other favor? Sure. Um, with Thanksgiving coming up? What veggies would you recommend for, low temperature, sous vide? Oh, Alex, you're going. I'm trying to think how, how, how many different things I could have. All set to finish just pull out and go. You can have, I was like, have the potatoes in there, pull them out, mash them, and they're good. Yeah, well, you should pre-match. you should cook a pot. I would cook a potato, basically, traditionally, mash it, put it in a bag, and then reheat it. Smush it flat and reheat it. Carrots are traditionally genius in a bag and good at Thanksgiving, sweet potatoes. Brussels. I mean, everything is at Thanksgiving is overcooked anyway. So, I mean, she's trying not to overcook it. But the point of good Thanksgiving sides are that they're overcooked. Oh, Jesus. I mean, come on, the Brussels sprouts there. I mean, they're caramelized, they're roasted. I mean, they're tender. They're just overcooked. Everything is controlled, overcooked. Are you a fan of a super overcooked broccoli that Steingarden likes, the hour and a half long cooked broccoli? I like tender broccoli, but I don't like brown broccoli. All right. But anyway, I would do any of those, any of those are good. Remember, if you're going to cook a vegetable in the bag and you're not adding a lot of liquid to the bag as a flavoring, or even if you're adding a liquid like oil instead of water, it takes a lot longer to cook something in the bag than it would because there's not as much available water.
+
+[35:39] So it's going to take more on the order of what it would take to roast at a vegetable in terms of time. And you also want I mean, if you cook it at, you know, lower than what, 85, it's not cooking. Yeah, no, no. You can cook something at 70 for like 4 weeks and it's still going to be crunchy. It changes its taste. Certainly, but it that texture is still just gnawable. Yeah, yeah. Definitely true. We used to do that demo. It fun. People get freaked out. Just leave it there all week. Pull it out. All right, so back to the combo here. I never wiped the combo off. I don't wipe the combo. I, which I mean, I'm looking for that. I mean, that's why we're using it. Right. somewhere in the back of my head, even though I reread my McGee, and he said that it is actually, that is what the crystals are on the surface. I have a little nagging thing in the back of my head that says that it's that current research says there's something else. But even so, I just don't wipe the dang things off. All right, 2nd question. How often from Andrew? How often should water in a low temperature from Jason Rather? How often should water in a low temperature cooker circulator be changed? Well, that depends on how dirty it is. I mean, you're keeping it hopefully at a temperature where bacteria are continually being killed. Um, but that said, I usually dump it out at the end of a service or at the end of a
+
+[36:50] cook. And then and then put it in fresh. You need to change the water. Okay? If you cook something in the bag, there is still aroma transfer. Yes, that's true. And so unless you want to have, you know, but what kind of bag, but look, honestly, like, I used to test bags based on their aroma transfer characteristics, and some are bad, but some are pretty, some are
+
+[37:11] pretty. There are waters where you can have. That's why people cook multiple things in the same water. Do retherm in the same water. You think it's bad practice? I don't think it's a bad practice, but I mean, if I would change your water daily. especially in, I mean, if you're doing like one thing, then you're fine, but if you mean, if you're churning through a lot of stuff at restaurants. In a home situation, after I'm done cooking, I dump the water out. Right. You don't want to have standing water lying around. Not so much. It's not that much water anyway. No, I mean, sometimes it can be a pain in the butt. If you know you're going to cook the next day. I am not changing the water because I'm gonna turn it on again in the next one. Yeah, from a bacterial safety standpoint, as long as your cooking temperatures are above 55 or so, you're not
+
+[37:49] going to hurt yourself. Right. It's just a question of whether or not it's going to be nasty. That, that, I think it's the nasty factor. You also don't want any flavors or aromas on the outside of your bag because it might drip water into something that you're going to serve when you're debagging. That is a good point. So I would just change it. I mean, look, don't go changing in the middle of your procedure. Like that. No, no. But you know, might as well just change it. Any. Uh, call her, you're on the air. Hey guys. This is Rolf calling from Philadelphia. Love the show. Thank you. Excellent. Question about, as long as everybody's asking about umami today, and you'd already talked a little bit about
+
+[38:28] combo, what about wrapping and marinating things in combo? Do you need how much moistening do you do before that? Uh, can you do this after making dashi or at that point is it really spent? How long can you really leave it, you know, wrap? What's the, what are some guidelines for protocols? I've only used fresh combo that's been lightly soaked to make it more pliable. I've never used kombu that I've made dashi with. Have you? No, we use the, the, we'll call it spent combo for, well, cutting it up into noodles and for salads and stuff like
+
+[39:04] that. marinate that. But like, but for instance, okay, I'll give you our basic technique is that you take and you have to soak it a little bit to get appliable, typically. We don't even we don't even soak. I mean, more often than not, we've got, you know, let's say we're gonna do fish. It'll kind of fit on there and then put the next layer and vacuum seal it and it wraps around it. Well, you know, Nils used to do duck breast all the time. Look, here's how you know whether you got it right. Leave it overnight, by the way. It's long enough. But they, like, uh, when you, I think. Yeah. When you peel off the combo, you should get little strings, coming little mucousy strings, separating off between the surface of your product and the
+
+[39:41] combo, this means that you've done a good job. I would, I would not use combo that's already been, um, used in Dashi. It's going to be spent. In the same sense, I wouldn't use Niels's duck breast combo to make dashi. No, but that combo is delicious, sliced up and used as a salad, because we've done it. If your combo is good. Some combo, you don't want it eat by itself because it's texture is no good. The flavor is good, but the texture is no good. But we took the duck, because we actually, he actually cooked actually in the bag with the kombu on. Sounds amazing. took it off, and then the combo was cooked already, and then we sliced it and used it as a salad. So it's good. I think it's a fantastic technique. It's not just for fish anymore. You know, I've never done it on anything. It's not a protein. We've done it on vegetables. How is it? It's delicious. And then we flip that around, too. I mean, we think about Italian combo. What was that? Prosciutto. So we'll actually, we'll actually thinly slice the prosciutto and then cure and, you know, put it on fish, put it on vegetables and let it infuse with the flavors as
+
+[40:43] well. But it doesn't make the strings though, does it? We have not gotten strings. No, no. But do you get strings with the combo on the vegetables? I haven't gotten strings on the vegetables. I've just done it for the flavor of the of the combo itself on the vegetables. Excellent, excellent question. I mean, have you have any experience, caller, with the combo stuff, or are you just calling to ask about it? Because it is a great technique. Yeah, it's it's something I had read about and I've been making
+
+[41:06] Dashi, uh, quite a bit lately and figured, what the heck, I have all this stuff sitting around, may as well
+
+[41:13] try it. You may as well indeed. You might want to find the Japanese typically use different combos for wrapping than they do for making
+
+[41:21] dashi, but in a small amount of experiments that I ran, I
+
+[41:26] think if the stuff tastes good for dashi, tastes good for uh, it tastes good for wrapping. I don't know why, I don't know what the reasons are for them using the different ones for different applications, but if it tastes good for
+
+[41:36] dashi, it tastes good for kombu wrapping as well. would agree with you. So I'm just looking for mucus strings. On skins of protein, that's what I found. I've only done it with fish and duck though. But that's, like, then you know, you get that, that look when you peel it off and it just, like, right? You know what I'm talking about? I haven't gotten the mucous strings on our fish, but we've only done maybe six, 8 hours or so on fish. Oh, yeah. Okay, so the 1st time I ever saw it demonstrated was a guy that did Saba sushi, which is mackerel sushi, and he would basically form it up, put the combo over it and let it cure pressed overnight, and then he peeled it up and you get
+
+[42:11] the... we know what the strings are? have no idea. Note the self. Yeah, good thing to research. But anyway, take a look for it. Also, you should you should try to look for the incredibly delicious flavor that you'll have. There is that. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the call. It's good stuff. Okay, hello, Dave and Nastasia and Alex, although Dan didn't know you would be here, so he didn't call you out. Hello from the West Coast. I appreciate your show. You guys have the best food podcast I found. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right now, it's apple season in San Francisco Bay Area, and I've been thinking about a dish I had at Mugarites in Spain several years ago. This was a local cheese plate served with calcium fossilized apple. The app was peeled, the stem left on and cooked in what we were told was calcium water. As a result, the inside of the apple was soft and scoopable, and the outside had a skin a bit like a dried apple, and I thought it was amazing. So how does this work? I was hoping that it might be within the range of a dedicated home cook. I found something called fossil powder, when the guys who make fossil powder claim it's safer, safer than calcium oxide out of Australia. But there wasn't any information out there about ratios or procedures, what do you think of this technique? This that meal is the only time I've ever seen or heard about this being done? Okay, well, 1st of all, never use calcium oxide, which is like dangerous stuff. You throw it in water and it heats up and does all sorts of nasty things. What you want is calcium hydroxide, which is
+
+[43:32] where you take calcium oxide. Someone else adds it to water, deals with the high temperature and the powder leftover. Uh, which is what Mugritz uses. Right. And we actually saw Anthony presented Star Chefs on that whole
+
+[43:44] topic and then Pauly Brandt from Corton extrapolated off that using instead of calcium hydroxide, he actually used soaked sun chokes in a solution of calcium lactate.
+
+[43:54] work? It did work. And we wrote about, there's actually a whole piece on our website on it. And what it is, is it's not so much the calcium hydroxide, but you're getting the reaction between the calcium and the pectin in the vegetables or the fruits.
+
+[44:07] Yeah, you know, I've done, I've done, I had something on the blog about, you know, if you add baking soda, which is basic to, if you add baking soda to water,
+
+[44:18] your vegetables stay green, but they get mushy. If you add calcium hydroxide, which is basic, they will stay green, but they will also stay firm because there's calcium in them. Uh, you know, traditional use of calcium hydroxide to make vegetables. I mean, it's been used for 100s if not 1000s of years in places like Thailand,
+
+[44:34] where, you know, calcium hydroxide in the form of Thailand paste has been used to firm up the outsides of bananas. It's used in pickling to firm up cucumbers. You're not going to get hurt, you can't OD on it because calcium hydroxide is not very soluble in water. It's really, really bitter. Horribly bitter. Yeah, but it's not that soluble. So typically here's what you do. Porous vegetables, though. Porous vegetables suck it in like there's no tomorrow and you have problems. When you're using a calcium solution, what they do commercially is they'll soak it for a while. They'll get the calcium interaction, then they'll soak it in pure water to get rid of the excess calcium.
+
+[45:13] That's what they do. We played that game. I mean like, look, you don't like calcium hydroxide? I'm not really making a smoothie with it tomorrow. No. What about tortillas, brother? I like the results, but I mean, in like we did Asian Paris. soaked in calcium hydroxide for a number of hours, then rinsed it off and then roasted
+
+[45:33] them, and fortunately had a bit of an inherent bitterness to them. And then we actually then switched back to calcium chloride. Chloride. Chloride's better than hydroxide. But I am still going more towards what Mr. Lee Brandt was doing, which was with lactate, which
+
+[45:49] is... Hey, listen, why don't we forget all this crazy calcium crap and just go buy some pectin
+
+[45:55] methylester, uh, pectin methylesterase, novo shape. You can stick blueberries, uh, and raspberries into uh, pectin
+
+[46:04] methylestrace, a.k.a. Novo shape, which is an enzyme, and uh, boil the hell out of them and they
+
+[46:09] won't and they won't break. You ever done that? We have not. It works like a charm. I was looking for it yesterday because I have to do something with pears. I didn't want them breaking up. Anyway, it's totally safe to do it. It's about, look, Calcium hydroxide supersaturates extremely quickly. So you're not gonna get more... I mean, the amount of calcium that's used is going to depend on how what the absorption rate of
+
+[46:34] the of the product is. That's why the limiting thing is actually not the amount of water is the amount of calcium hydroxide to product that you put in. You also need to make sure you've got a fair amount of pectin in that product. Otherwise, it won't firm. It won't firm. Yeah, yeah. That's a great technique. I mean, I'm saying this. I've never had it. We had a blast with it. We did it with white sweet potatoes, and then we did it with orange sweet potatoes that we broke apart, soaked them, and then we braised them in
+
+[47:00] a, like a meat jus, and then glazed them. And they had this regular shape to it. It was soft on the outside, textured on the outs or soft on the inside texture on the outside. You ever, you ever, uh, I bet I never had it movie. It's never been. No, I have not been. I'd love to go. Okay. We're gonna have to rip through the rest of these questions because we're running late as usual. Hello, Dave and Nastasia. Thanks for your advice on modernist style cheese sauce. I ended up using. This is from Matthew. I ended up using a version of Mirvold's mac and cheese. It involves sodium citrate, which is a melting salt, and Iota carragan, and work really well. Good. glad. My question today is, if you've ever tried these vegan cheeses that a guy named Dr.
+
+[47:34] Cal makes in Williamsburg, I haven't, as of this writing, tried them, but people say they are super good, especially as cashew cream cheese. And I imagine Nastasia is making her vegan face as I write this. And she is making her vegan face. I looked up, look, I like that. I've had it when I was on that raw food for a week. I had the cashew cheeses, not his but somebody else's. They taste good. They're not cheese. Well, I mean, that's it. Is it an idea or is it an actuality? It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a worthwhile food product. It ain't cheese. It's not cheese. No, I agree with you. I mean, it's giving you a frame of reference. Right. I'm gonna go more into this in a minute, but call her, you're on the air. Hi there. Hi, Alex and Davis. is Brian calling from San Francisco. Um, question is about cook, cookware and non-stick surfaces. Um, what's safe, what's not safe? Um, uh, sometimes I smell some off gassing when I eat it too hot. Wow, how hot are we eating? what's the deal and what should I know? How hot were you heating it? Uh, I mean, it's a frying pan. Um, I don't know. I had it on the high flame for, you know, 10 minutes or so. Oh, yeah, yeah. Probably a bad idea jeans were worn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know about the toxicity of the surface once it vaporizes. I think they assume that you're going to do it eventually, so it's probably, it's not like Viton, which, uh, you know, certain certain polymers degrade into very toxic things when they're burned. Plastic wrap. Really? Polyethylene is very toxic when it burns. I don't know, it stinks. Yeah, probably stink. But like Viton is dangerous as hell when it vaporizes. But Teflon, it's not used in pants, so don't worry. Teflon, I don't know when it decomposes, whether it's actually dangerous. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily use the I mean, the pan is toasted after that, right? I mean, I've seen him close to. I mean, I've seen cooks rip on those Teflon pans. And I know extreme heats are not supposed to be used for them because they eventually start breaking down. The Teflon coding. By the way, you'll have to just go back and tell me what the question was again, because all I had in my head was an image of a pan on the heat and it combusted. Okay, are there safe non-stick coatings? If so, which one should I should I get? Um, uh, it's a question of safety. I've never, I don't think it's a, I don't personally feel to safety question. There are people who feel, what do you think? Do you feel personally it's a safety question, Alex. I have heard it. I have not tested it, and so I feel probably not knowledgeable enough to answer appropriately. I think that's accurate. I mean, like, I think my problem, look, let me put it this way. I have several nonstick pans. I have never had a nonstick pan no matter what they say that can actually stand up to years of abuse. Well, I mean, they also think non-stick means you're probably cooking something gently. I mean, if you're, you know, roasting a ribeye in your nonstick pan, you've probably chosen the wrong pan. Because it doesn't have get a fond. Yeah, I mean, it's, you have to use the right tool for the right job. I mean, there's these hard anodized aluminum things that are supposed to be non-stick. probably fairly safe, right? I don't touch those things. Really? Why? never used one. I don't like aluminum pans. And maybe it's just a preference, but you don't like aluminum pants? Good heat conduction. I don't know, man. They may have good heat condition. You're old school anti-aluminum? You still believe the Alzheimer's story? I don't believe the Alzheimer story or I think, I think. Well, you know, you people used to think that aluminum pants could contribute to Alzheimer's because aluminum ions, aluminum was found in the brain tissue of certain elevated amounts were found in the brain tissue of certain patients who have
+
+[51:07] been autopsy with Alzheimer's, but I believe that that lake has been disproven.
+
+[51:12] So why do you people live with the fans? More from that, we're using some sort of acid. Oh, yeah. So whether it be a pan sauce or deglazing or something like that. And so, yeah. Anyway, I don't think it's a safe. look, maybe it's a safety issue. I'm more worried about it being a functional issue that once they're toasted, they're they're not good anymore. And then you get like micro staking in there, a pain in the butt. Yeah, they're no good anymore. They're no good anymore. I mean, look. And then like, you know, they tell you not to wash them in the dishwasher and then scan pan said that you could wash ours in the dishwasher. Guess what? I did, and you know what? The pan got ruined. So you can't wash in the dishwasher. Well, that's what they say. Yeah, they said you can't wash it. They said ours are so tough that you can wash it in the dishwasher and use metal tools
+
+[51:52] on it. But I'm like, okay, I'll take you at your word and I'll use it in a dishwasher and I'll use metal tools. Then got messed up, like within like a year, year and a half, it got messed up. Then they came out later with a 2nd version of scan pan stuff and they're like, oh, this, you have this one actually works. I haven't tested it yet. I don't know. You got to just take it in for a changeover. Yeah. I know, but I'm not like that. Like, even think something has a guarantee. It's like, you know, I'm just so lazy. I'm not going to show up with something and say, honor your guarantee. Yeah, but yet you'll go out and buy 52 different versions of it and test it. Yeah, I'm a joke. Anyway. anyway, I hope that was helpful. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so back on this cheese thing. Here's my problem. Look, the vegan cheese is basically what you do is you use nuts, you grind them up, you ferment them somehow using some version
+
+[52:37] of, like, either what they call probiotics, which is another one of these crazy terms that I don't has marginal meaning. And they, and, uh, and rejuvilac, which is basically fermenting sprouted grain stuff. And it ferments, and acidifies, and somehow coagulates. Although I looked tried to look up the mechanism of nut cheeses, and no one's written a scholarly article that I could find on it. Uh, but that said, I looked up the Super Cow or whatever it is, Mr. Cow website. And one of the benefits they have in their plant is they have a
+
+[53:06] tachianized electrical panel. And I had to go look up what Tackian eyes meant. What does tackianize mean because there's a guy... Yeah, well, so Tachyons are a hypothetical particle that move faster than the speed of light that's been posited in some versions of
+
+[53:24] physics that has obviously never been observed. And this guy claims that he can, by using these tachyons in a machine that tachyonizes
+
+[53:36] material that he can increase the positive energy in the things around you and him.
+
+[53:42] I read about this in Calvin and Hobbs. For real? No. Oh, anyways, so I am very, you know, tackonized. Jesus, tackianized. But that said, there is a very interesting thing about faster than light particles happening right now at
+
+[53:57] CERN, where they think they detected a neutrino that was going faster than the speed of light. and they're currently trying to reduplicate the experiment. Those guys are no joke stuff. It should be due in November. So it's a very exciting time to be thinking about faster than light particles. All right, Matthew has another question. I periodically get in debates. Actually, we'll do this one. We'll do the one coming and then we'll finish off with this guy. And then we had this one here. Ooh, how do you open an oyster with LN? We got that. Where do you have it? Yeah, I mean, I've tried it, but the problem is, and Mirville really recommends it, but the problem I've always had is that if you try to open an oyster, shuck an oyster by using liquid
+
+[54:32] nitrogen, is that you get partial freezing of the thing, and then... We've done it. We do like 12 to 15 seconds for oysters or clams, drop it
+
+[54:40] in, and then let it thaw, and they pop themselves, and they're beautiful. They're unbelievable. Yeah, you're freezing the oyster. You don't have you ever done a side by side? Do it do it side by side with me. Do a handshuck. and then do an LN shuck. and like, do a triangle test, like, like, 5
+
+[54:57] reps. and I want, I, I, I want to know if the freezing does anything to taste. Perfect. All right. when are we doing this Whenever. All right. We gotta do it. I mean, look, it works. It works great. Clams are off the hook. I mean, they're the plumpest clams. And one of the things is, I noticed that when you're shucking them this way. is there's no there's no braking at all of any of the oyster or clam membranes. So you end up with a plumper, just a visually aesthetic. You have side by side, and I've shucked them and it's supposed to. So we'll have to blindfold. You have to blindfold. Or unless unless, unless visual is part of the... No, let's do take, we'll do both. Okay. But first, we should do taste, blindfold. All right, so we'll do it. We'll do it. That's it. There's no question that it actually works. It works. It's 12, 15 seconds in nitrogen, pull it out, let it rest in the refrigerator, and they'll pop themselves, and then choose a spoon, or you can run it under
+
+[55:47] light lander warm water, and they'll just speed up the process. Danielle Mullen writes in was, uh, hello, was reading about some reviews of ramen places in New York City and who was making the best bowl in the city, et cetera. I'm interested in starting to cook my own noodles and broth. And I was wondering if you had a favorite way for making the noodles. Fat or thin? Do you cut them yourself, et cetera? Do you use traditional con sway or eggs? I think if you're going to make ramen, you have to use conway. Being the alkalizing agent that they use to make them
+
+[56:13] A, yellow and B, stretchy. We use baking soda, and we use actually unbaked baking soda, but it'll
+
+[56:19] allow me, does it go yellow? You get a slight tint, but you don't get that full. You go stretchy? Yeah. You get chew and it also makes them well easier not to overcook. Right, here's the thing. You don't want, like, uh, traditionally they're not cut. They're extruded, and look, Alex and Aki were fortunate enough to weasel an Arco Bellino, amazing pasta extruder out of the company, which is
+
+[56:42] like is a fence. Look, if you have like 2000 bucks jingling in your pocket and you want a pasta
+
+[56:48] scooter. Find another 2,600 bucks and then you can. No, but they have one now that's two. Yeah, it's going to be 25 for the AX 10, which is coming out, and that's including dies, etc. It does just as good a job. It doesn't have the auto cut and doesn't have as many dyes, right? It doesn't have many dyes and it's a little bit smaller, but it's the same guy. It's the same beast. It's awesome This sucker is not that much bigger than a cuisinart, by the way, folks. And it really does a number on pasta. Like, I was the 1st to think that a small posh extruder would be a load of horse manure. And I was like, this is going to suck. This thing is amazing. It's an amazing machine. Anyhoo, you can handcut them, though. But they're very stretchy, is the issue. They supposed to be stretchy. I would use Conway, which you can get in any Asian market. And then you can tell if it's working, the flower will go yellow, and all of a sudden it'll get stretchy, which is characteristic of this. Here's the trick with ramen. Ramen. You like, you know, you lightly cook it beforehand. You fry it. It partially dehydrated by frying. So you have to fry ramen noodles. That's the real, not a secret. I mean, you can look it up. That's how you do it. But ramen noodles are cooked, fried, uh, as a dehydration process, and then I think further dehydrated, and then rehydrated again. But that's characteristic of ramen. I don't know whether the restaurants do that, but they should. I have not I've not heard that frying thing. Yeah, that's how they, they, they fry them. At least that's my memory. I didn't look, this question came in right now. So this is coming from my memory. Someone call me in and tell me I'm a moron. which happens quite often. Okay, last up. Uh, I periodically get into debates with my girlfriend on the subject of using fantastic Lysol or other such sprays to help me wash pots and pans. She firmly believes that I should not. I believe they help to sterilize and get cut off of things that if I thoroughly rinse the items, it's a safe practice. This is assuming the stuff I am washing is non-porous. Am I being a jackass or what? Huh. Well, I looked up the MSDS is on Fantastic and some of the Lysols. There a bunch of Lysols out there. Um, and but before I do this, I mean, look, you don't need a disinfectant for your pen because you're about to put it on
+
+[58:51] a flame again. You know what I mean? Let it rip. Yeah, yeah. Especially if it's that Teflon pan. Yeah. But, but, you know, what those things have in them is surfactants that help get rid of oil,
+
+[59:05] right? All of those household products are meant to volatilize and not leave residues on your
+
+[59:12] services. So you're probably going to be okay. If you're actually looking at a sanitizer, though. I would go with good old-fashioned bleach. bleach. I mean, bleach is great for a number of reasons. It's easy to purchase. You can use it in very dilute. Look, you're really only wanting to use between a tablespoon and an ounce per
+
+[59:35] gallon as a sanitizing solution. I mean, don't ever go over, uh, like half a cup per gallon for normal sanitizing, um, because
+
+[59:43] you're gonna have a lot of residual chlorine. You don't need it. Like those lower amounts are going to provide enough sanitizing to do it, soak your stuff in that. And chlorine in those small amounts will volatilize as the thing dries and leave no residue at all. then you're good. Then you're good to go. I mean, like if chlorine's not good at getting the crap off of it. You need to get the crap off beforehand. Which is elbow grease. which is elbow. But before that, do that. Now, what is in fantastic? Okay. First of all, this is hilarious. I've never seen this in an MSDS. Uh, they put this down. Color, blue, odor, fresh. That's that we can do that in MSDS, huh? Yeah, fresh, fresh. And the other one, I looked up there. The disinfectant fantastic was color blue. Odor, pleasant. MSDS, by the way, is manufacturer, material safety, data sheet. Okay. So what's in fantastic? Propylene glycol, monobutyl ether, ether? And that's a solvent and a coupling agent. It helps lock the grease and get it off, is what it is. If you feed a whole boatload of that to rats, their liver will get cancer, but it doesn't happen to us so
+
+[1:00:47] much. volatilizes fairly quickly. It evaporates. Um, and we're not eating boatloads of it. The other main thing in it is alkodimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride, a.k.a. benzyl alconium chloride. ADBAC is highly toxic to fish and a aquatic invertebrates, but it's not going to hurt us in small amounts. And, you know, don't drink it. That's the old common sense rule. Yeah. Lysol can have a bunch of stuff in it. Uh, including um, isoprobyl alcohol, potassium hydroxide. Why the hell would it have potassium hydroxide in it? That I don't know. Weird, huh? And also more of the ADBAC and some other cool antiseptic properties. here's what I found out about Lysol. You ready for this? Go for it. You know what Lysol was originally sold as? In the 20s? Deodorant? Feminine hygiene product. I was close. You were supposed to douche with this stuff. Fabulous. really. I could I could not believe it. So it was a Wikipedia reference. So I was like, I don't trust Wikipedia on this, right? So I went and I saw a whole bunch of advertisements. Uh, and they were the, like it just goes to show how as a culture, uh, we were just an offensive bunch
+
+[1:01:57] of, uh, people back in the day to suggest that here's how awful the ads were.
+
+[1:02:04] They would put ads in women's magazines, and I'll read you some on the way out. Ready? By the way, before I start reading the Lysol copy from the 40s, which hopefully if you have any sort of heart or soul are going to make you be upset at the Lysol Corporation. But thank you, Alex, for being with us today. We had a great time. Good to be here. Okay, from 1949, in a women's magazine. A picture, a picture, an advertisement, a woman beating against a door and not being able to make through the
+
+[1:02:33] door, too late to cry out in anguish. Be aware of the, of one intimate neglect that can engulf you in marital grief, too late when love has gone, for a wife to plead that no one warned her of danger, because a wise, considerate wife makes it her business to find out how to safeguard her
+
+[1:02:51] daintiness in order to protect precious married love and happiness. One of the soundest ways for a wife to keep married love and bloom is to achieve dainty allure by practicing effective feminine hygiene, such as regular vaginal douches with reliable Lysol.
+
+[1:03:06] Cooking issues.
+
+[1:03:15] Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner And I don't know where I'm at.
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+[0:00] You know when you're wrapping up a long day in that what's for dinner panic hits? Well, when you've got convenient everyday protein from Omaha steaks waiting at home, that panic turns into your weeknight win. And now's the time to buy during Omaha steak spring savings event, save big on their exclusive lineup of mouthwatering steaks, gourmet burgers, air chilled chicken, pork, seafood, and more, all delivered right to your door.
+
+[0:24] Plus, get an extra $35 off with promo code audio when you shop
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+[0:28] Omaha Steaks.com today. With over 100 years of unrivaled quality and variety, Omaha Steaks understands what you need to get dinner
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+[0:37] done, plus every bite is backed by their 100% guarantee. Omaha steaks is your weeknight win. So get the world's best everyday protein during their spring savings event. Go to OmahaStakes.com for an extra $35 off when you use promo code audio at checkout.
+
+[0:54] That's OmahaStakes.com. Promo code AUDIO. Terms apply. See site for details. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[1:19] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245 in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria
+
+[1:32] in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Joined as always with my co-host, Nastasha Hammer Lopez. Hello. Hi. On this fine Tuesday morning. How are you today? Good, good. All right. Today's cooking your shoes, number 61, I might add. Well, by the way, today is a happy birthday to my mom
+
+[1:49] issue. My mom's birthday today. Happy birthday. Yeah, right? It's not like she listened to this. What's your name? Linda, Dr. Linda J, Adanizio. She runs the heart transplant program at Columbia University, the pediatric heart transplant program. Yeah, she's badass. Anyway, today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry. They sponsor every show, huh? show should just be sponsored by them. like all the time. Anyway, all right. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies, but only a few grams are needed per application. Modernness pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, ph buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry now carries 3 types of gel and gum, including Calco gel, F, low acele, gel, and Calco gel,
+
+[3:00] LT 100, high acele, gel, and. What the other one? That's it. Hi, low, and the mix. Faran sells something called Jell-An or Gelanio or whatever he calls it in the Spanish stuff. And what it is, it's a mix of the high acel gum and the low acel gel and gum. So for those of you that don't know well, I'll finish that thing 1st and then we'll get into it. Uh, fans of cooking issues, at place an order of $35 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of Jeland. Simply use the promo code CI 61 when placing your order online at
+
+[3:31] modernSPantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay. So, uh, Jillian, right, is interesting because it's, uh, it's one of the newer hydrocolloids. It's a product of microbial fermentation. And it's made by Kelco, uh, CP Calco. Piper, our old intern, Piper, now is working for CP Coco, because it's the family business. He moved out to California, correct? Isn't that true? He was either about to or he just moved out to California. No, he took the job. Anyway, he's working for CP Gogo. So the cool thing about Joanne is this. One, Jelen can be used for serification because it requires calcium to set.
+
+[4:10] So if you have very, very pure water or you use what's called a sequestrian, which binds up the calcium, you can do spherification. I don't really like verification, so that's now it interests me. But what is cool about Jelen, is it has a very good mouth feel, has very good flavor release, and you use it in very small quantities to get a fairly firm gel, which means
+
+[4:26] that you're not going to mask flavors a lot. The other cool thing about gel, is that once you make the gel, you can boil it and it's not going to go away.
+
+[4:34] So really, really hot gels. People use gel in. Also, the cool thing is that the high acyl gelan is very rubbery and stretchy and bouncy, and the low
+
+[4:45] acyl gelan is very brittle, and by combining the two, you can get any kind of texture in between that you want.
+
+[4:52] Jelen also makes very good fluid gels. Oh, we have a color? Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi there. My name's John. I've called in once before. Uh, I know you, uh, last couple weeks you've been talking about, um, hunters and how they should really get an immersion circulator to cook their cook their kills. Um, so I mentioned that to a hunter buddy of mine and he's actually, uh, his dad actually got a deer last night. So, I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations as far as, um, what, uh, you know, what preparation and
+
+[5:24] stuff. Uh, and it sounds like the most likely cut that he's going to get out of this is, uh,
+
+[5:29] he said the uh, rear, so it'd be like a ham, I guess, out of the hind quarter area.
+
+[5:35] Is he is he splitting it with other people? You mean the, the, uh... Yeah, it's like he's splitting it with him and his dad, basically. So he's getting the so his dad's taking the loins and all that, huh? Yes, I think the loin is probably the best part. So he's getting a ham cut. How old is the deer? Is it very, is it young? I don't know how old it is. It's a buck though, so they're worried it might be a little bit gamey. Right. And that's one of the reasons I ask because cooking low temp isn't going to take any of the gaminess out of the meat, right?
+
+[6:04] So, like, for instance, if you get, like, you know, a very, very young deer, like the liver is good, but it goes incredibly livery and an older deer. Uh, but I don't, let me see. So, for meat that is gamey. Tendency is when you cook it, the longer you cook it, the more you accentuate that kind of gaminess, right?
+
+[6:25] So then the other question is kind of, and how old the animal is, is going to determine roughly how tough the meat is, right? Right. So if you like gaminess. Right now, in general the deer is not going to be very fatty. So even a young tender deer, if you overcook it, it's shot. You know what I'm saying? Because it's going to dry out. So here are the basic parameters. Typically in a gamey animal, the longer you cook it, the more gamey it gets. Now, if you like that gamey taste, it's not necessarily a problem. All right? The more connective tissue that's in an animal, the longer you need to cook
+
+[6:58] it to tenderize it at a given temperature, right? And the less fat is in an animal, the drier it's going to get the instant you overcook it. So these are the 3 things you have to play with. Now, For low temp, like on a deer loin or something like that, I like low, like 55, 56 Celsius, right?
+
+[7:18] And you don't need to cook it that long. Now, the question is, how long, if you're going to use those cooking temperatures, how long do you need to cook the different muscles in the hind quarter to get them to be tender? It's probably going to be a while, in which case it's going to be gamey. I, you know, I would recommend, um... Well, I know he does cut these things like steaks. I mean, he's basically cutting, he said, he's cutting stakes out of the ham area. So I think he treats them much like he would something from the loin. Right. I mean, I had bad bagam in butter. I wouldn't salt them because you might have to cook them for a long time and if you cook them for a long time, you're going to lose some of the juiciness if they're pre-salted. I would bag them in butter without any, uh, or oil, whatever,
+
+[7:59] but, uh, you know, something is not going to affect the flavor in a negative way. I would not add salt until the secondary process. You can sear it beforehand if you want it. bag it. And then if you want to cook it like a steak. He has to, in his mind, he has to come up with what he thinks the equivalent steak is, right? So I'll give you some examples. Like a skirt steak. If you're only going to cook it for like 30 minutes, you want to cook a skirt steak at 57.
+
+[8:24] If you're going to cook a skirt steak for 4 hours, low temp, right? Then you're going to want to go down to 5556 Celsius because it's going to tenderize over that and it's going to taste better at those lower temperatures. This makes sense? Also, you're not going to want to cut it too thin or you're going to ruin all of your good work when you do the syrup. See, one of the ways that people do game meats a lot, even in the hind quarter, right? Like, for instance, I've had lion meat this way and bear meat this way. They'll cut very, very thin steaks, almost like, you know, pork chops used to be. And then, uh, and then they'll just high heat pan them real quick. And it'll
+
+[8:59] basically, the fact that the meat is tough and overcooked is going to be ameliorated by the fact that you have the nice taste from the searing and it's cut so thin that your teeth are going to be able to make it through
+
+[9:08] anyway. But that's not what we're looking for. Right. We're looking to actually cook the meat properly. So you're going to want to cut a relatively thick steak. So if he's saying he's stay cutting it, you want to find out kind of what thickness he's going
+
+[9:19] for, I would go on the thicker side, like you would for regular, like a good beefsteak, and then just run a test with a small cube and see how tender it
+
+[9:28] gets if you cook it at, let's say, 55 for 8 hours. Do you know what I'm saying? And then just, yeah, just see like as a ballpark start. Just take a small cube of it without searing it because I don't want to know anything about what happens. I want to know what happens to the tenderness and the flavor of the meat itself. Uh, do that and see whether it goes. If it's mushy, it means you cooked it too long. If it's not tender, it means you haven't cooked it long enough. If it's very gamey, try to up the temperature, a degree, and chop the time down by a lot. And if it's, uh, you know, if it's just, if it's just undercooked for your taste, then obviously, uh, you know, raise
+
+[10:07] a temp. And if it's similarly, if it's overcooked for your taste, lowered a little bit. Don't go below about 54, uh, 54.4 Celsius, if you're going to cook it for a long time just for safety reasons, uh, and you're not going to want to go above 57. So like that's your whole range of cooking right there. Perfect. Okay, cool. We'll experiment with that then. when you're done, you can ask me the question. When're done, will you please write or call in, tell us what happened? Sure, yeah. Maybe I'll take some pictures too. Um, just thinking about, uh, so I, you know, I did a, um, a dinner this weekend with some friends and and, um, my wife just loves, um, you know, uh, steak tenderloin. So that's what I did and that's, you know, a crowd pleaser. It, you know, easy to do 55 hour, hour and a half and, you know, it's nice and tender, cheer it off. The one time I have tried different cuts of steak, I think I was a New York strip. I basically used the same technique. And I know that, um, you know, from your charts and stuff, you know, I think New York strip is considered a tender cut, so that's pretty much the same technique I applied, but
+
+[11:08] it was really tough. Um, and I don't know if that was a function of just not a very good cut of meat or do I need to cook a cut like that longer? Okay, so a strip, depending on, uh, well, you know, strip does have that piece of cartilage running underneath the fat line right up at the at the top, but you're not talking about that. You're talking about the mix. No, it took the whole, yeah, the whole home in general, I think, was kind of just not very, not very tender. What temperature do you use? It's been a while, but I think it was basically 55. you know, what you medium rare. 55 is a fine temperature for strip. It's great temperature for rib, for instance. It's a fine temperature for, you know, ribeye. But the, you might want to take the strip up to 56 or just cook it longer.
+
+[11:56] I think, you know, a strip in general, when we cook strips, I like to cook them at least 2 hours at
+
+[12:02] 55 to soften them up. And actually, I think they're kind of at their optimum at around four. Really? Okay. At that range of 4 hours. They're not going to go gaming on you and you're not going to break them down too much. So I would say a 55, which is a good number. I would cook it for about 4 hours. No salt beforehand. Otherwise, it's going to lose some of its texture. And I would then drop the temperature of the circulator to 50 for about half hour or
+
+[12:32] so, just to let it, between half hour and 45 minutes to let it, the temperature in the center of the state come down to
+
+[12:38] 50 and then just sear the bejesus out of the outside. And why you just drop the temperature so you don't overcook it when you sear it? Bingo. Okay. Yeah, that's the only reason. And, you know, if you have, like, for instance, I did this just last night is, I cooked a whole bunch of steaks on Sunday in a
+
+[12:58] bag unsalted, ribsteaks at 55, and then I had one left over because somebody canceled on
+
+[13:06] me. So I just left it in the bag and then I heated it up last night. I threw it cooked on Saturday, rather. I threw it in a in the circulator, but I put my retherm at 50, right? Rethurn it for 35 minutes and then sear it, right?
+
+[13:23] So you're not going to have any safety issues because you're only keeping it at 50 for a very short amount of
+
+[13:28] time, and the rest of time it was kept in a safe zone, and then you can flash it off. So if you if you don't want to worry about exactly, you know, dropping it at the right
+
+[13:36] time and you're going to cook it ahead of time, then you can just do your retherm at 50 and then steer it off and you're not going to have any
+
+[13:43] problems. Right. Great. All right? Thanks for calling. Let us know how the deer came out. Will do. Keep up the good work. Super, thank you. All right, so back to Jelian. Oh God, that's 21. What? Yeah, well, let me finish the geland before we go to break. anyway. So if I had something to tell you about that, too, about this steak. Oh, you know what? My stepfather says I speak very, very quickly. Is that true? very true. I speak he says I speak more quickly on the radio than I actually do in the real life. Is that true? I fear if I open my mouth before I say something, you're gonna cut me off right before I say it. That's the past you speak. That's a confirmation? Yeah. anyway, whatever. Who the hell wants to talk slow when they're on the radio? I mean am I unintelligible? All right, all right, all right, all right. Okay, okay. So gentleman. So, uh, so, the other cool thing Jeland does is it makes a fluid gel, and a fluid gel is something where you make a gel, and you shear it into very, very small particles. The particles tend to kind of adhere to each other when it's at rest and they form a gel,
+
+[14:44] what acts like a gel, and then when you shear it, i.e. in your mouth or by pouring it or spooning it or anything like that, it reverts to the properties of a liquid, makes
+
+[14:51] a fluid gel. Jelland. Great stuff. We like it a lot. That's what we use for our ice cream that we, I'm bleeding. My nose is bleeding. Uh, but not through not through the nose hole. The bridge of the nose. In case you guys are getting grossed out that there's like blood shooting out of my nostrils when I'm talking, it's not true. I scraped the bridge of my nose is what Nastasia's telling me. Anyway, now Nastasia has an image of me blowing blood out of my nose holes. Anyway, um, nose holes. So, uh, Jelen, really good stuff. We use it to make our hypercreamy, torturable ice cream. Anyway, with that, call in your questions, 2718. What is it? Oh, my God, I forgot. That's right. 718-497-2128. We going to go to our 1st commercial break cooking issues. People. Keep on learning. Soldiers Keep on falling.
+
+[16:15] Keep on watching. Cousin won't be too long.
+
+[16:28] Love that song, right? What was that noise? You don't like Stevie Wonder? I got a glitter in my face. Oh. That's a new one. glitter in my throat. All right, welcome back to cooking issues. Hey, Nastasia. was fun having Talbot on the show last week, right? It was fun guest. You guys enjoy the Talbot over there in the booth? Yeah. Thumbs up. Yeah he's awesome. Yeah, he's good man. How was his other show that he recorded? He's good. He pulled a marathon. He was here all day. I know it. He was just sitting out in Roberta's like, you know, with his earphones in being totally antisocial. I ran in and I'm like, 0 my God, Alex Talb to come on the show. He may have slept here. not even sure. He did in the morning or in the evening or both? After all the shows, you know? Yeah, I just slept. make it back to Philly. Exactly. Nice. Nice. Okay, so calling your questions. Two. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Going to go to some writing questions, right? Is that what we call them? Writing questions? Can you give me the glitter noise again? Um, I'm just getting over something too. So I have the same laugh my grandpa used to, which is always like coughing. It like start laughing and then coughing. So it reminds me, it reminds me of being mean to people because it makes me... Anyway. So, I am trying, who's this from anyway? Do we know who this is from this question? Is this from also from Johnny? Oh, Blake. All right. Blake Anderson writes in. I'm trying to make a chilled zabayon, but the liquid separates out after an hour in the fridge. The recipe says to chill for 4 to 6 hours. I'm using 4 egg yolks, very fresh and very local. One quarter cup of sugar, one half to one cup of red wine. I usually use red wine, but anyway. Marcella. Oh, really? Blake, we're going to come back to this. Call her. you on the air. Hello? Were you lying to me, Nastasha? Oh, hey, caller. you on the air. We lost him. Sorry. You lost him? Yeah, weird. Jack lost. Nice, Jack. Thanks, man. Thanks bro. Okay. So we're going back to Blake's Zabayon. Quarter cup sugar, half cup to one cup red wine. A drops of liquid. he dropped a liquid ratio that didn't fix the problem. Blake, you think that's a man or woman? Man, man, man. Dropping a liquid ratio did not fix the problem. I'm beating a mixture to a foam on a double boiler, and mixing until the mixture cools to below 90 degrees Fahrenheit, would
+
+[18:37] adding, less thin, help to better emulsify any advice to make a stable mixture. All right, Blake, I think I know your problem, you're not going to believe it. You ready for this? You're not going to believe it. First of all, is that why you own one of my favorite things? I love Zabian. You like that stuff, Nastasia? Like over strawberries. It used to be. I used to make this all the time. you know, I used to have like bottle of Marsala just lying around the house just for this
+
+[18:56] occasion. Winning strawberry season. I'd cut up the strawberries, make us have, you know, and pour that son bitch right over the strawberries and eat it. dessert. a good dessert, yeah? Yes. Okay. Now, here's what you were doing wrong. I almost guarantee it because I used to do this too. You're undercooking your Zabayon. So what you're doing is you're super worried. And by the way, here's the procedure, folks, you put your egg yolks, your liquid, your sugar in a bowl, you whisk the heck out of them, and you put it over a heat
+
+[19:20] source, and you keep whipping until it becomes foamy and thickens, right? Then it becomes a creamy sauce. Now, everyone, when they're making zaba, you know, petrified that they're going to overcook the egg yolks and thereby make it taste grainy and like scrambled eggs.
+
+[19:36] Now, you're probably, if you're being careful and you keep beating it, is not going to happen. Here's the issue. Zabayon is going to start getting foamy and look like it's built up a texture just from the fact that you're so afraid that you're going to curdle
+
+[19:49] it that you're beating the crap out of it with a whisk. So you're forming a nice foamy mixture with your zabo yone, but you're not cooking it enough. Then when you pull it off and put it in the fridge to cool down over time, that foam separates and you get a layer of liquid sitting at the
+
+[20:02] bottom because it doesn't kind of keep self emulsified the way that, let's say, a
+
+[20:07] creme anglaise does when it's undercooked, right? Which is, you know, similar, but instead of using a wine, you're using milk, right? And usually not as high of an egg yolk ratio. So what you're doing here is you're making something that looks all foamy, but it's not cooked
+
+[20:20] yet and it's going to separate. I've done this many times. I guarantee that's your problem. Do not be afraid. Make sure that your mix isn't just foamed up, but that the actual liquid is thick in
+
+[20:32] your in your zabayon. And I guarantee you this is going to solve your problem. You'll be able to chill it down just fine. Here's another thing. Everyone gets all. I saw some, I was looking up on the internets, and I saw some recommendations on cooking it, and they're like, don't let it get too hot. Don't let it get too hot and all of the recommendations that I saw on the internet about the temperature at which the egg yolks are going to
+
+[20:52] curl on the zabayon are all off and they're all low. Invariably, I don't know what the heck these guys are reading their temperatures with or how much of a
+
+[21:01] carryover they're getting, but the information out there is just not right. Um, I, in fact, don't even make the thing, people are like, don't let the, don't let your pan touch the liquid in the double boiler or everything's going to go to hell in a hand basket.
+
+[21:13] Also not true. It's a matter of just being careful. Now, the larger amount you're making, the more careful you have to be about regulating your heat source because you can't keep the thing moving as quickly with your hands. But for small normal quantities, a couple of egg yolks, uh, you know, you can do it. I do it in a in a bowl with a smooth bottom. You don't want something with a lot of edges on the bottom because you're not going to be able to get your whisk into it effectively and you might get some local curdling there. But I make the thing directly over a flame. I have like a bowl with like a loop in it that I hold the loop with a heatproof thing and I make it directly over a flame. I don't even use anything. If you're worried about cooling down, getting carryover, have a, like a, like a pan of, of a cold water next to it to stick it in and beat it a couple of
+
+[21:55] times. As soon as it starts cooling down, it's not going to curdle on you, you're going to be fined. So I think your problem is just fear of curdling. Get over your fear of curdling and your sabion is going to be delicious. That's my recommendation. If you are having like real issues, it's something that I don't understand, it is possible to stabilize it so much, I wouldn't use less
+
+[22:14] than, I'd use starch, but I wouldn't do it because it's going to muddy the flavors. Sabayon is so pure and delicious and light and ethereal that it just shouldn't be messed with under any circumstances. What are your thoughts on this? Yeah, all right. Johnny Kirk writes in, says, I have a question about preserving lemons through sous vide. In my experience, preservation through the of lemons. Through the use of a chamber machine takes an equal amount of time as the traditional method of preservation. My true. My process, uh, using a multivac C200, which is just like multivacc200, for those of you that don't know what the hell that is, it's a standard, medium-sized restaurant vacuum machine, make standard. standard. Okay. is as follows. Place the container with the lemons, the salt, and the lemon juice in the vacuum machine,
+
+[23:00] uh, and let it get down to about 20 millibar, which is fair to millon vacuum. He's back on the phone. All right, caller. It's a new color. New color? We lost the old guy. I feel so bad now. Anyway, color, you were on the air. Hey, guys. Howdy. Question about methocell solutions using them. I've been playing with them lately and have had what I would call absolutely no luck. really, really stinky, nasty, chemically, even like fishy smells coming off of this stuff. Like, you know, one% solutions. I tried to, trying to make some meringues, you know, you were talking about meringues a couple of weeks ago. Oh, hey, that's cool. I'll try that. I tried to make, uh, sort of like a tui. You know, sort of crispy. I wanted to make a tamarind crispy piece. And man, that stuff was so foul. I must be doing something horribly wrong. Help me. Let's start. Which methocell do you have? So I have tried both the F 50 and the E4M. Okay. I tried to, yep, uh, e-series. I don't like the e-series. Just to be honest. They don't, I don't even know that they make the e-series anymore, uh, because their factory blow blew up. number of years ago. Maybe they started making it again, but the e-series is typically used for making like the tuels and the chips. Is that what you were doing? Because they're filmformers. That's what I trying to do. Yeah, I don't like them. Uh much. I know a lot of people that like them. I went to a restaurant which shall remain nameless. It was Modo. And like half the dishes had on it, like a tuile formed with methocell, one of the e-series. It's it's E4 what? E4C for M? E4M. Okay. So that's also, I mean, the good news about E4M. is that 4M, the number, right, is four, and then the M stands for thousand. So the viscosity of that one is like
+
+[25:09] 4000 times greater than what a one would be. So F 50 versus F4M, you're looking at a factor of, uh, 240, like, like 80, like 80 times thicker at a given thing. Okay? So you should be able to use a relatively minuscule amount of it to provide a thickening power, but the problem is that the e-series is good at film forming, but it's not very good at
+
+[25:35] gelling, and it's not very good at, uh, I mean I don't think it's a very good whipper. It's mainly used for that film forming thing, but you need to have a certain amount of that in there to make the film forming
+
+[25:48] thing. Anytime the methocell percentage gets to be one. You're going to start tasting the awful methocell stuff unless you're using some very, very, very strong flavors. So when I'm using F50, F50 is the one that makes really good foams, it then makes a meringue, when you're using F50, if you have an extremely, extremely strong flavor, like passionfruit, for instance, passionfruit or, you know, some passionfruit variant,
+
+[26:16] um, will obscure, it sounds nasty, right? We'll obscure the methyl cell flavor up to about a percent or a little over. That said, in general, if
+
+[26:29] you in a whipped product in a meringue. I don't taste them at the cell, uh, when it's down at like 0.8%, so 8 grams per kilo,
+
+[26:40] uh, but you start adding like a like one. 2 grams per kilo over a percent like that, and you're definitely going to get an off flavor from the
+
+[26:49] methocell. That's like, and that's one of the problems with it. Now, how much were you using with the F50 and what flavor were you using? That was the tamarind? Yep. And I had started at just under a percent.
+
+[27:04] I was going for .6. And then I was paging through modernist cuisine and those guys use it often at, you know, one. 2 ish or so, so I upped it, uh, and I, I tried that in
+
+[27:17] Cameron. I tried that in a in a roasted cauliflower. I was trying to put those 2 together. And it just, it just kept coming through. I also had it pro problems with it seeming like it was separating. Right, which I assume is a dispersion problem. Yeah, a lot of meth, a lot of methacell, uh, if you have, do you have a vitaprep? No I don't. Yeah. So methocell is kind of a pain to disperse. So one of the, um, unless you have like a, you know, very good, uh, blender. So one way to to nicely disperse, disperse methocell is to mix it with a quantity of corn syrup or sugar and then blend it in to keep the particles separated.
+
+[28:00] Another way is to go hot cold. So put the methyl cell into something very hot because it won't dissolve and stuff that's very
+
+[28:06] hot. And then like blend it and then add like cold or chill stuff to drop the temperature and then it'll
+
+[28:13] hydrate. And then the last resort, you'll notice in a lot of methyl cell recipes, if you look at them, they'll basically tell you to make the mixture and then let it sit overnight.
+
+[28:22] And a lot of hydration problems with methocell can be, um, can be fixed by, by letting it sit overnight. Now, the difference in taste of methocell
+
+[28:33] between I, I, look, I don't know whether this is true or not. I know the thickening power of these products is not linear. In other words, adding, doubling the amount doesn't double the thickness. It's a lot more than that. And I have a feeling, and I don't know why this would be the case, but it's my feeling that taste wise, with methocel, it's the same thing. So .2 is going to taste like a lot more than .6, but my feeling is .6 isn't going to be enough to get a nice stable meringue foam out of it, right? So I would say try like .8.9 but not above. The other thing I'm going to say is that is that it's a whipping agent and that it actually helps to stabilize, um, uh, you know, foams, but you're also going to want uh, some solids in there that uh, provide a structure.
+
+[29:20] So in when we use fruit purees, it's basically pectin mixtures that are providing that structure to you. So if you don't, a lot of people add bulking agents, like Maltodextrin, to their stuff to get them to whip up to a nice, to have like, to have structure left when you've dehydrated, if that makes sense, because
+
+[29:39] it's not enough methocell there to provide this structure. So what you're looking at, the methocells, basically, a whipping aid, and also it's holding the structure until it can dehydrate.
+
+[29:50] But you don't want methacell being the primary physical structure of the meringues that you're
+
+[29:57] making or I think you're going to end up with those kind of a taste problems. Does that make sense? several things to try. Yep. All right. And let us know, let us know what happens. I just don't like those E those E 15 or E4M films films that much. I mean, like, some people do like them, so don't write in and say that I'm a jerk for saying it's just, it's not my preference. I'm allowed, right? Absolutely All right. Thanks for calling. I, uh, did the uh, combo wrapped duck this weekend we talked about last week. Was it delicious? Good? Awesome. Nice. I got that trick from I got that trick from nils and it's delicious. Yeah, I'm gonna wrap everything. I'm going to wrap, you know, brownies in combo from that one. I know it's good stuff. Yeah, great. All right. All right, thank you. Okay. Is there another color jack? Yes. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, just wanted to say thank you. You guys have been hitting it for 60 shows. Appreciate it. Oh, hey, thanks. Thanks for calling. And, uh, in the combo wrapped, uh, ahi tuna that I went and called was amazing. Perfect. How long was it wrapped? I wrapped it with some kombu that was called just down the ocean from it. So, yeah, it was pretty pretty dang amazing. Appreciate it. How long do you leave it? What's that? They worked it for about a day. Nice. Beautiful. And then we just did sashimi with it. But, um, my main question is, I'm making hot sauce, and right
+
+[31:23] now I'm using my vitamin X blender, but I need to, obviously, move that forward a little bit. What's the next thing I'm gonna look for to make, like a, like a Sriracha style hot sauce? I don't have any... Oh, uh, I don't have any recipes off the top of my. Well, what kind of problems do you have? I want equipment. I want to know what homogenizer, et cetera, what I need to do. Oh, you want it even finer than you can get it in a vita prep? It's just I need to make more. Oh, size. Well, they make, like how much do you need to make? Like, what are we talking about? I'd like to do 5 channels at a time. Wow. Five gallons at a time. Yes, I want to go in business here. Yeah, there's okay, let me think. There, I mean, they make obviously large, uh, style, uh, things, but they're not going to get it as fine as
+
+[32:15] a, uh, a Vita Prep does, but they're... I was looking at large rotor staters, but those are expensive.
+
+[32:21] Oh, they're very expensive. You might want to look, there's there's, there's basically something in between a blender and a food processor that I haven't seen much
+
+[32:30] in, um, in America, but in Europe, They have them a lot, and I forget who makes them, but they're basically like 2 food processor blades stacked up, but in like a 5 gallon
+
+[32:42] drum and they sit on the floor and they're priced for restaurants. Uh, I don't know how fine they can go, but I had some chefs from Australia and Europe tell me that they're like the greatest thing
+
+[32:54] since uh, since sliced bread and what's cool is they tilt. So you put your, you top load your stuff, hit go, and then, um, and then it tilts it out. And I'm not exactly sure what level of, you know, particle breakdown because the thing you're... how many
+
+[33:11] micrones we can get you. Right. Yeah, because the, I mean, rotor staters are, they're, they're expensive and they're not good at breaking down
+
+[33:22] large, large things because they have to fit into the gaps. So you're going to need to do some initial breakdown anyway. You know, and if you want to go really badass. They have basically inline, uh, like, I think they have inline, inline rotor stater jobs where basically you you pre-pulp your stuff and then you stick it through the rotor stater and just just goes through and gets completely annihilated. That's not that big to begin with. So I just need to break down those hard seeds. Yeah, and... Yeah, and I'm like, uh, you want to actually physically disintegrate seeds. I don't think that this thing is going to, I don't think that this, that the,
+
+[33:59] the, the RoboCool-ike thing is going to work on it. The other good thing is if you're actually going to get a big piece of equipment, unless you're just going to do a straight eBay buy, what you do is, is you call them and you say, here's what I'm looking to do, who's got
+
+[34:14] one? And then you go, and you look at it. and you see what, you know, what kind of it can do. And once you make the next leap into like more expensive equipment, they're usually okay with that because they know that they're going to
+
+[34:28] get a customer out of you. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I'd like to spend, you know, a thousand, maybe 1500 bucks to get everything going, but... It's gonna be more than that for that. Like, and then, you know, if you're making 5 gallons at a time, so I'm trying to think of like custom
+
+[34:43] solutions. Even a gallon I might be able to live with, but right now the Vitapress, just it's a lot of work. Well, they make a much bigger Vita prep. Um, they make one that's, I think, 3 times the capacity that I think
+
+[34:55] does, like, like, 4 liters or something like that. And that one's in that range of like, you know, 1500 bucks or something like that. Ah, so that's a big fighter. Yeah, it's much bigger. I haven't I haven't used it, but... One more quick question on the hot sauce thing
+
+[35:13] is how do you measure garlicness? And we have school units for heat. of the capsum capsasin, but how do we measure garlicness? Well, it's it's an interesting and a difficult question because garlic is not
+
+[35:26] stable. Like garlic chemistry is very, very, uh... Right. And so I don't know at what point it's considered stable, like at what, like how many, you know, weeks or
+
+[35:39] months it's considered stable, but you're also measuring the pungencies measured in different ways. It's been, uh, and I can't even keep them in my head. like the minute I read it, It goes out, but Eric, Eric Block, I think, his book on garlic and other alliums. I mean, it's just really a lot of complicated stuff to wade through. And so it's, you know, great thing about capsation is, is that it is, you know, it's fairly stable. And so it's easy to characterize, and Scoville is fairly easy for people to measure. Similarly with hops. You know, IBUs, international bitterness units are fairly easy to kind of get a hold on what's going
+
+[36:16] on and they make a lot of sense. Garlic, on the other hand. I don't know what the what the pungency rating of garlic is. It's probably measured as like a free percentage of like Alan N or whatever it is. You know what I mean? But I don't I've never heard of anyone rating it that way in terms of trying
+
+[36:35] to make a standard. Uh, Which is a pain because different kinds of garlic have different levels of like radically different levels of pungency. And so it's gonna be difficult to control that way. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Well, I appreciate... Yeah, I have a bunch of hard-neck garlic. I just got from the farm that Thanksgiving farm that Cesare Casella works
+
+[36:55] in, and it's it's baby twice as. It's twice as, you know, powerful in terms of that awesome garlic flavor as, like, the normal crap I get out of the supermarket. Yeah, we picked up some from the Berkeley Seed Bank. It's, I think it was a Moroccan garlic or something weird like that. Holy crap, is it powerful? I know it. I mean, it's too powerful to my wife who's not used to it. I love it, but, um, it's interesting. next time I speak to McGee, which is actually going to be in 2 days because I'm going up to the Harvard to give
+
+[37:24] another... Yeah, McGee's going to be there. Yeah. I'll ask him about it because that's the kind of thing he's interested in too. And if I ask him about it, I'll try to remember to talk about on the show next time. Well, ask him about popping sorghum too. Popping sorghum? Were we talking, was I talking about it out here? Because I just had a conversation about this with somebody. Terrible inconsistency. I love the stuff, but I can't get consistent. I think it's just my distributors are different ages of sorghum. Right, different and different probably moisture contents. I mean, you can equilibrate. You can equilibrate grain. It takes a while, but you can equilibrate grain to a specific moisture content. I don't have the protocols in the top of my head, but it's probably moisture content's your problem. Ah, so can I remoisturize it? Yeah, it takes a while. It just takes a while. I carry it in the bag or something. Yeah, I don't know. Like, you look, you look up on Google, like Google procedures for, because it's called temper, they temper grains out to particular moisture levels for industrial
+
+[38:22] processes because, you know, for instance, for puffing or extruding, if it's not exactly the same every time,
+
+[38:27] like, everything goes to hell. Right, right, right. Yeah, I noticed that one. Well, I can talk to you all day, but I really appreciate the answers. Thank you. Call in if you have any more results. All right. Now, where was I? Preserved lemons? Yep. All right. So preserved lemons. We're talking about Johnny Kirk Preserved Lemons. And basically, he puts them in the vacuum machine, salt, lemon juice, lemons,
+
+[38:52] gets it down to about 20 millibar. I am assuming he puts cuts into the lemons because usually people put cuts into the lemons. Anyhoo, he does this about 3 times and then he bags them and seals them. Oh, so he just puts them with juice and salt in the container, vacs them without a bag, and then and then vacs them down in a bag. It seems to make sense to decrease oxygen level might speed the process of preservation. Also, if you could help me understand the point, some people freeze their lemons when they're preserving what's the point of that, I would appreciate it. Okay, so here's what's going on. When you vacu- the reason you want to vacuum bag, preserve things, whether it be kimchi, sauerkraut, preserve lemon, is that they like to be in oxygen free environments.
+
+[39:30] It's not that it speeds it, is that you can get all flavors if there's oxygen in the bacteria that are growing there, want to be anaerobic anyway. So vacuum bagging is a good way to not have to worry about waiting things down in jars and making sure they're covered with their own juices and things like that. So that, like when you're making a pickles or anything like that, there's always instructions to like load it down, cover it to make sure they're covered, and that's to exclude air.
+
+[39:50] If you bag it in a vacuum machine, you get rid of that problem. Another great thing about a vacuum machine is the vacuum machine by doing kind of rapid infusion of any liquids that's there can help get the salt and whatnot into the fleshy part of the fruit much faster, right?
+
+[40:05] And basically just kickstart those operations very quickly. Now, the point of freezing a preserved lemon preparation, like Alex Talbot does, for instance, in his ideas and food cookbook, is you're breaking down it by repetitive freeze
+
+[40:19] thawing. You're breaking down and tenderizing the texture of the product. It's going to speed any sort of preservation. If you are going to do a longer keep to have them ferment a little bit. And it's also going to change the flavor of the fruit a little bit. And we've done this with our frozen and thawed lemons that we think. I think they smell more like bergamot, like Earl Gray, after they've been frozen in thawed. So that's what that's all about. But a traditional preserved lemon is a function of
+
+[40:50] thyme because there are yeast and I believe it's like symbiotic yeast and like, I think acetic acid bacteria. I think yeast makes alcohol, very salt tolerant, acid tolerant yeast, makes small quantities of alcohol, which are then digested by bacteria, which I think make acetic acid.
+
+[41:07] But this is coming off my memory. I didn't have tons of research this morning. I think that's what's going on. And so, um, you know, a preserved, a traditional preserved lemon pickle is going to be a lot different from anything that you kind of shortchange or
+
+[41:20] quick cut. Should we take one more commercial break? What do we know? Jack, do we have to finish? Can we take one more commercial break? Yeah, take another break. All right, we'll take another break. We'll come back, call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-4972128.
+
+[41:53] Many guys, have you come to you? With a line, it wasn't true, and you pass them by.
+
+[42:06] Now, you're innocent. And welcome back to cooking issues. Oh, you like that? I come off that really mellow song with a screaming intro. Anyway, We need to have an announcer. Yes, you want to be an announcer? No, I won't have Hill Bravo. Well, we have a friend, Phil Bravo. good for much, but probably would be a good announcer. Right? I mean, everyone's good for something. Anyway. Phil Bravo. Anyway. So, Scott hands my writes in and he says, I'd like to make a
+
+[42:35] transgutaminace that's meat glue, turduck in breast, and then cook it sous vide, or low temp, actually. I wouldn't do it sous vide. I do it low temp. But the temperature for duck is very different than for chicken and turkey. Uh, 2 ideas I have were do the whole thing confit style, which would probably be pretty awesome, but I was hoping for a roasted type texture, or I thought about pre-cooking the chicken and turkey piece and then gluing it to the raw duck, but will the TG glue to the cooked
+
+[42:59] meat? It will not as strong, but it will. Uh, or could I sous vide the whole thing to duct temperature with the duck in the center and then roast it to the other parts to a higher tent, but that's going to be hard to get precisely, right? Any other ideas? What do you recommend besides not doing it? It's got hands bump. Okay, well, you are in luck because this is one of the recipes that I actually make quite a bit. And the, you hit one of the secrets there. The secret is to arrange the meats in the order that they want to cook. That's the secret. So what you do is you take turkeys, this is what I do anyway. Take a turkey skin, I lay the turkey skin out, then I slice thin and pound out turkey breast, which I then meat glue in a layer on the
+
+[43:43] skin. Then I put a layer of chicken breast and then a layer of sausage, force meat, then a layer of
+
+[43:54] duck, and then a squab in the center. Nils and I used to do this at like every sous vide class. So we've done it dozens of times. And then you roll the whole thing into one giant tube. And then you put it into a water bath at 64 degrees Celsius, which is what the turkey wants to cook
+
+[44:09] too, with a thermometer in the center. And when the squab makes it up to 56 Celsius, you pull the whole thing
+
+[44:15] out, and every piece of meat all the way through is cooked exactly the way you want it.
+
+[44:20] The turkey's cooked about 64 The chicken's cooked to 63. The sausage meat goes between about 63 and about 58, uh, the duck goes between about 58 and
+
+[44:30] 57, and the squab goes at 56, and everything's good. You then chill it down a little bit, and you deep fry the outside of it to crisp up the skin, and you're good to go. Nastasia, you've had that, right? It's good, right? That is the way to do it. The other way to do it is to take then the leg meets and do a total confit of the leg meets, right? And since those are going to a high temperature anyway, that one you can just roll in a plastic tube, confit at like 82 Celsius for, or 85 Celsius for, you know, a couple of hours to get it cooked, pull it
+
+[45:01] out. And I would serve them side by side and now be straight up delicious. We've never done that. But that would mean, I'm telling you right now, though, it would be delicious. Now, some tricks. I would, I would make a miniature roll 1st of the squab in the duck and then place it
+
+[45:14] in, and then roll it in sausage and then roll the larger roll because the whole trick is centered
+
+[45:20] on uh, on getting the squab in the exact center, right? But that's the way you do it. You arrange it in concentric circles and it's delicious. It's good business. Um, Okay. Let's see what we have here. Joseph writes in. Dave, I'm thinking of cooking pork chops with apple juice concentrate and was wondering if you have any experience with this combination. I mean, I've cooked hams in apple cider before. That was good. I'm assuming cooking a chop in apple juice concentrate is going to be good as well. You're going to want to be careful if you're doing a high temperature. If you use anything concentrated with a lot of sugar, you're going to get a lot of scorching problems. If you're doing a low temp, you're going to want to use it concentrated so it doesn't taste poached. You're going to get probably some flavor transfer, but I'm not sure how much. And then when you, if you're going to do a post-seer, as opposed to a braise. You're gonna get in trouble with, again, with scorching. So anytime you're dealing with high sugar glazes, unless you like burnt sugar taste, which some people do, which is why they put barbecue sauce on their meats before they grill
+
+[46:15] them, because they like a burnt sugar taste, it's just something to be aware of. But apple and pork, I mean, you can't get more classic than apple and pork, can you? Can't be, can't possibly get more classic than that. Okay. Dave, we get this from Jason Dave. I cure meets at home, rather successfully, he might add. He often cures pork, beef, goat, and lamb. Hunter at work is offered me his next deer, which I promptly thought about curing into deer prosciutto,
+
+[46:39] salami, prasala, et cetera, et cetera. I have one concern. I thought wild deer often have parasites. Do you know if freezing will kill these parasites? If so, what temperature and for how long? The same question applies if I want to low temp, cook some deer steaks. What's the minimum time temp for whatever parasites deer have. So any low temperature cooking that's going to kill bacteria is going to kill parasites. So you're not going to worry about parasites in a cooked thing as long as you've cooked them properly.
+
+[47:06] I try to do some initial research. And, you know, deer can carry tapeworms and other parasites, but they typically won't jump to humans.
+
+[47:15] You get a lot of bacterial contamination through shooting and things like that if the gut's done or through poor slaughtering. Uh, and so and there have been outbreaks of bacteria related problems due to uh, beef jerky, uh, venison jerky. So, and something is not going to be cooked or salted enough or properly cured to kill all bacteria, you're going to want to,
+
+[47:34] uh, you're going to want to do a cook step like when you're doing venison jerky. But for freezing, if there are sort of any sort of worms or parasites that are there, freezing should kill them. Freezing does not kill bacteria, which is why freezing is not a good bacterial kill for doing dry
+
+[47:51] cured meats, but freezing is a good kill for trichinosis and for tapeworm cysts. Now, I don't think there have been any cases of tapeworms, cysts, tapeworms developing from deer to people. You got deer to dogs and you've gotten dogs to people, but I don't know that you've gotten dear to people, but maybe.
+
+[48:08] In which case, I've seen recommendations of a hard freeze, very, you know, low, like 0 or lower Fahrenheit for like, uh, you know, like well over a day. I couldn't find them anymore because Clemson used to have this stuff online and they changed their site and I couldn't get it anymore.
+
+[48:24] But take a look. I mean, it's something you worry a little bit about, but I wouldn't worry too much about. Anyway, okay. Last question of the day. I've got 2 minutes. John Blue writes in. Hello. Pecan prolines were a traditional dessert of Mexican settling in Texas, way back in the day because that's all apparently was necessary, was pecans, water, and sugar, and apparently they had sugar, which is weird, but they had sugar and the
+
+[48:46] hippicans. Replicating this with pleasant results has not been successful. From what I've uncovered, refined sugar was commonly used. I've tried that and brown sugar, Demerar, et cetera. I've tried short cook times in long times. They either end up too watery and won't harden or too grainy from the sugar. Any suggestions on how to keep the sugar dissolved while thickening, or how to harden the mixture without adding ingredients. Also, any plans to do a quest for French fried supremacy part. part three. Thanks, John Blue. Well, I'm going to address the French fries first. Uh, I'm gonna, you know, we're going to be opening um, 98% chance we're going to be opening a uh, bar concept in an existing play soon, and in it will
+
+[49:21] be uh, the, our supreme French fry, uh, which isn't exactly what's in the blog because I've increased the size of the French fry since we lasted
+
+[49:29] it and requires a couple different steps. But there will be an opportunity for anyone to come taste our French fries soon. It's true or false, especially. True. Okay. I don't know if I'm going to write about it anytime soon just because I'm so damn busy. Anyway, prolines are interesting. a question of what kind of a texture you want. Some people's pralines are hard. The sugar is hard. And some people's pralines, the sugar texture is fairly soft, almost akin to a maple sugar. And the difference between them is how crystallized the sugar is. So I'm just going to go into general because I don't know exactly how you want them, right? If you want hard sugar that breaks, like peanut brittle, you don't want basically any crystallization hardly at all. You want it to form into hard candy. And for that, you want to minimize stirring and you're going to want to add the nuts late or basically pour this stuff over top the nuts, right? And then you're going to get a minimum amount of crystals forming. You're going to want to do very little stirring of your sugar before the before everything dissolves because you don't want big sugar crystals that then all of a sudden go back into the pot and form large crystals to
+
+[50:31] get seeds, sea crystals, right? If you want something more fudgy, you cook it all, you get it totally clean, and then you do stir it as it's
+
+[50:38] cooling, and by stirring as it's cooling, you initiate the formation of lots of small
+
+[50:42] crystals that give a fudgy texture. So it all depends. You're going to have to write it and tell me exactly what kind of praline you want to hit, what kind of a texture you want to hit. But if it's getting too grainy, add the nuts much, much later in your process, even at the end. And if you want it fudgy, follow more fudge-like procedures of stirring, letting it cool somewhat, and then stirring it to generate small
+
+[51:04] crystals. And if you want it to be fairly clear, except for, I don't know if you're adding any cream or milk-based stuff to it, then you're
+
+[51:10] going to do a minimal amount of stirring, make sure all of your crystals are dissolved, and then manipulate it the smallest amount you can before you pour it out and let it set.
+
+[51:20] But let us know exactly what you're looking at, John, and we'll try to troubleshoot a little more. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[51:38] vodka. Oh, you did. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[52:00] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[52:07] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. The following is a public service announcement from food karma. To kick off the New York City Meet week in style, Meet with a Twist will bring together the best chefs and mixologists for a cocktail food pairing party on November 7th, from 6 to 10 p.m. at
+
+[52:27] City Winery. Meet with a twist features 10 cocktails paired with 10 chef selections highlighting
+
+[52:32] locals, sustainably grown meat such as duck, lamb, chicken, pork, beef, bison, and ostrich.
+
+[52:37] The party will launch a week's worth of events throughout the city that celebrate the slow food
+
+[52:41] movement, bringing sustainable meats to our tables. Again, that's November 7 from 6 to 10 p.m. at city winery. Updates, tickets, and more information are available at MeetWeekNYC.com.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadionetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Bringing you pizza live from Abernus, Indie Jesus. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner and I don't. And welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're hosting cooking issues. I was on the air with that? That's awesome. We got a little piece of that. All right, all right. So here's here's how it works, folks. My headphones running on. And usually when my headphones aren't on, no one can hear what I'm saying so I can say whatever, whatever I want. And there is a waiter here or bird is. Who, I mean, doesn't wear the same clothing as Jesus. you know, uh, but basically looks like, you know, indie rock, indie rock Jesus. Am I right about this? Robert. Anyway. And welcome to cooking issues. Okay. And you can come down to a birds, which I highly recommend. And have a pizza served to you by Indie Jesus. on any given Tuesday. Uh, okay, so, uh, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria, uh, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly
+
+[1:26] 1245. Can we say that? Is that accurate? Yeah, I had a little running with the M train and then jogged over here. My fault. I should have just left earlier, but I was at home researching all of my
+
+[1:37] listeners' questions. What are you, listeners? What do we call them? listeners? Listeners. Anyway, joined as usual in the studio by with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Rough. Rough? Rough. Well, cooking issues. Had a late night last night. We were doing the Eater Awards, and we made milk soup, right? Colombian soup, Changua, I think I talked about it on the air. I made it in Colombia. And they wanted something with eggs and pears, and so we did that. So it was like, you know, milk and chicken stock and fish sauce and uh, little lime poached egg and uh, some stuff, like uh, vacuum infused
+
+[2:16] pears with um, with, uh, you know, some, uh, what's that stuff called? My brain is on hold today. You know the Spanish pepper? Pimenton. oil and cilantro oil and cilantro and vacuum infused onions, you know, all that good stuff. Oh, and corn nuts, by the way. I'm bringing corn nuts back. By the way, that's my job. The rest of my life is to make corn nuts come back because corn nuts are some delicious product. Anyway, so, um, basically, if you're ever going to do one of these events, uh, here's what you should do, everyone else did this, right? They made up a little sign about what they were making, they, you know,
+
+[2:49] with it, I swear to Christ, I shouldn't say that in the air, like next next to us, right, was
+
+[2:55] Red Farm. The dim sum guy there made a miniature village out of dough.
+
+[3:00] Different colors of dough. Man did not paint any of those little things. I'm talking like absurdly detailed miniature people holding pandas with like flowers out of dough, all on a bed
+
+[3:13] of like pink peppercorns and like with like these weird flowers that look like tree bonzai things. The lady next to us had, you know, like 8000000 year old candle drippings, like Vincent
+
+[3:25] Price house, a wax kind of business, spray painted gold. had nothing. Ninda, nothing. And we show up, and not only do we have nothing. don't even write down what we're serving. So the entire time, we had to sit there and give the whole long shebang spiel of what the hell we were doing.
+
+[3:42] By the end, we were just dancing in our booth going,
+
+[3:46] milk, soup, milk, soup, get your milk, soup, milk, soup, right? pretty much? Anywho. I highly recommend making a sign before you go out to one of these events. Also, been a busy week. We were up at the Harvard, with Harold McGee, and John, his son, who's a TA for that class, doing the,
+
+[4:03] we're doing drinks. How do you think that went? Yeah, I think it went well. I think they enjoyed it up there, the drinks. Although I wasn't allowed to serve any... Oh, check this. All right, look. The Harvard undergrads. Now I know that like, you know, you know, universities, I remember back that long ago, universities, they get all, you know, they get their privates all bunched up about
+
+[4:25] underage drinkers, right? You know, uh, and uh, so we weren't allowed to serve any liquor, even to students who were over 21, which I was fine
+
+[4:33] with. But check this. It's like some sort of weird, like 70s beer commercial, I'm not allowed to taste what I'm working on. It's absurd, right? Absurd, absurd. Anyway. Uh, so, uh, enough of uh, what we've been, except for, I'll tell you one more thing, that's interesting. Nastasia just went to see Fishbone. This is not a cooking related. Oh, by the way, you should call in your questions two. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Okay. So, um, uh, Nastasia went to go see Fishbone, which was one of
+
+[5:03] my my favorite bands growing up, Nastasia from Los Angeles, never listened to Fishbone, or the Chili
+
+[5:10] Pepper, she hates anything that's local, by the way, she's like an anti-local person. Like, if it was around when she was a kid, she hates it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, tacos, she hates them because she's from LA. You know what I mean? Fishbone, she didn't listen to it. Why? Because she's from LA. Me, East Coast guy my whole life, grew up listening to kind of that West
+
+[5:28] Coast ska, funk punk kind of stuff. Anyway, fishbone seminal band. I'm happy to report to my listeners out there that fishbone still rocks after all these years, right? Yeah. They were hardcore. Their horn playing was so tight back in the day that you could have put it. anyway, whatever. On to the questions. All right. Hi, Dave and Nastasia. I got a couple of sausage questions for you today. Some sausage recipes call for the addition of soy protein or milk powder to help with moisture retention during cooking. I've got an excellent bratwurst recipe, brats. Bratwurst. Bratwurst recipe right now that I always get good results and juicy results from. I'm wondering if I should try and tweak the recipe by adding some milk powder or soy protein. Maybe it will be even better. You know, this is from Matthew and he has a 2nd part, but I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think you need to, uh, no, no. What do you think? No, I don't think you need to kind of and cheapen it. I mean, look, if your stuff is juicy now, right? Then I don't see the point of adding like a filler or extender. milk protein, it's okay. Uh, you know, if... I don't know. I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. Soy protein, I definitely wouldn't do. Taste it. Does it taste delicious? Is it making your sausage more delicious, right? If your sausage is already juicy and you don't need any additional, Oh my god, Indie Jesus is coming by the, coming by the station. If you don't, if you don't need the additional binding power, don't use it. That's my feeling. What do you think, Nastasia? He looks at his reflection. All right, for those of you, which is everyone who doesn't know what we're talking about. Like, we basically, here in the radio station, we look through a window at whomever is eating in the kind of like faux outside
+
+[7:12] enclosed, you know, backyard of Roberta's pizzeria. So, you know, on break, we will often make comments to ourselves about the guests and or the wait staff. True, true. Okay. Okay, back to Matthew. When I cook my bratwurst, I usually gently poach them in beer, good call, before browning them on the grill, also a good call. An issue that comes up is they tend to swell and the meat ends up poking out of the ends of the casing. One suggestion I got was to let the sausages air dry a little after stuffing them. This would dry them out a little bit, and thus when they rehydrate during cooking, they will not swell as much. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. I don't know that I don't know that the issue with sausage bursting is a rehydration of the meat issue. I think it's basically a swelling, um, probably swelling of the air pockets that are inside of your uh, of your bratwurst. Now, if you make the texture denser by like vacuuming the meat before you put it in, you probably get less swelling. Um, I think what you're doing when you, when you're letting it dry out a little bit, lose some of its weight, is you're just
+
+[8:13] uh, providing a little extra space in the casing for expansion, because it's still going to expand the same
+
+[8:19] amount if the same amount of errors in there. At least that's my feeling. I don't know. This is just off the cuff. So, or you could stuff them a little less tight and they're not going to burst. Also, I would recommend probably poaching at a lower... I don't know, when you say gently poach. Um, I don't know what you mean by gently. I would, when I do rats, or any kind of sausage. I think I've mentioned this on the air. You want to get an immersion circulator, and you can put your beard directly in the immersion circulator, or you can put a small amount of beer in a
+
+[8:46] bag with the brats and circum at 140 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 60 Celsius. That, the magic one. You should all remember. I don't care if you can't do Celsius in Fahrenheit. You should just remember 6140 Just remember that. Anyway. Um, the other magic one I always remember for some reason is 57, 135. Anyway. So I would search them at 140, 60
+
+[9:09] Celsius for like, you know, 40 minutes, something, even longer you can go. This is actually going to, okay, so look, when you're making a sausage, The whole idea of grinding up the meat is to take tougher other things and flavorful things,
+
+[9:20] make them, you know, join together into kind of a more homogeneous mixture, but also to tenderize by grinding, right? And you add a lot of fat to keep the sausage moist even after it's cooked because, you know, sausage, if it didn't have a lot of fat, would dry out. With a circulator, you can tenderize the actual individual particles of meat by cooking
+
+[9:39] longer, and you don't need I mean, you should keep the fat in because the fat's delicious, but you're not gonna need the fat just from a simply a juice standpoint, from a juiciness standpoint. So it's like a double win. So if you get a circulator, I would cook your brats with a circulator, you could do them in
+
+[9:54] beer and then and then cook them off on your on your grill. What do you think, sir? Good. Good. All right. Anyway. Okay. Key Solomon from, how do you pronounce that? Winnetka, Winnetka, Illinois. writes in, and he says, per our request, to please write in some questions. I am one of those who listens every week via podcast. I have a question about taste. Well, thank you for listening. Why does so much fish always have that frozen taste? I know that you can get good frozen, frozen fish. What is the secret? Um, and also Thanksgiving is coming up. Why is so much deli turkey so awful? It can't be that hard to make turkey taste like turkey. Well, here's the here's the deal with deli turkey. It's just bad. You know what I mean? It's like they, they, they're forced to kind of overcook the turkey. Um, you know, per per the regulations that they do. And so to make up for that. They have to like hit it with a bunch of stuff to keep the moisture levels high enough after they overcook it.
+
+[10:52] And it's just, you know, it's just not turkey. And then they slice it preposterous. just not it's just not turkey. It's not turkey. What do you guys think? Anyone anyone here think that stuff's turkey? No. No. And you know where you should get your turkey this year, right? You should get it from Heritage Foods. Actually, you know what? Heritage foods, turkeys are delicious. Do we still have those? Are they sold out, Jack? No we've still got some. Yeah. just got back from Kansas City. Well, is that like the Turkey capital? Yeah, that's Turkey. Turkey capital. Turkey capital. Yeah, the turkey's here at heritage. And you know, not to pump our own brand or nothing, but the turkeys we get here are pretty damn good. I mean, I didn't pay for mine last year. I stole it from Patrick, actually, when he wasn't looking, but it was a delicious turkey. Oh also, speaking of pumping. You know who came to the event yesterday? Tim Mustang from J.B. Prince, Chef Superstore, came to our event and gave us a sauce funnel to use at the event.
+
+[11:44] Sauce funnel, by the way, sauce gun, is basically a funnel with a little stick that sits in the bottom of it.
+
+[11:49] These things should cost like $one.50, but they cost like $150 for some reason. And so everyone always resists purchasing one because they're just so
+
+[11:59] damned expensive. And if you're working at a school, they tend to get lost. However, they are like the world's greatest thing. I wish my hands were constructed out of them because you can just dump
+
+[12:09] unbelievable like accurate fast portions of anything liquid out of these suckers. So we did, you know, our 400 portions of soup, and I didn't spill a drop until someone asked me a question, and I leaned over on the funnel and it actually opened it onto the table. Did you see that? You didn't catch that? Thank God. Because she would not let me forget it. Anyway, Sauce gun, uh, like the greatest thing in the whole, in the whole damn world, and you can purchase it at the JB Prince. I'm going to get back to whose question is this? Keith's question after our 1st break. This is a house that Jack Bill. Remember the house. This was the land that it works by hand It was the dream of an upright man. There was a room that was filled with love. It was a love that I was proud of This is the life, the life that I planned on the love, the same old love in the house, the taxi. The hostage justice. Remember this house? There was a fence that held out love. Yes, it was a game that it walked out. This is my heart, and it turned the sound. Yes, it is a house. it ain't no more This is a life that I can start. That I thought with love in the house that Jackson, the house to
+
+[13:27] Jack, that boy, that money down. The water, the used to pranking. You know, I brought it all myself as more than I am. But it's easy, so funny. That I didn't understand. And that was a house that Jack built by Aretha Franklin, an actual request from one of our listeners. You can call on your request. We'll take them. We don't care. We like that song and Jack especially likes that song because it's the house that he built. That's for Lee Howman. Yeah, God damn. You know, Aretha Franklin, afraid of flying in such a severe way that she has to drive a bus wherever she goes to go on tour.
+
+[14:07] you know this? Did you know this? anyway. Today's episode? Number 62, which by the way, 62, you can now cook a low temperature pork
+
+[14:18] belly, and listen exclusively to cooking issues broadcast while you do
+
+[14:23] it. I don't recommend doing that, but if you stayed up for 62, basically, you know, cooking issues straight, cooking your pork belly, low temp, you would have a nice pork belly. Well, it's just that's how many hours of BS that we've spewed over the air. It takes 62 hours to cook. Well, we don't have a full hour, but it's like rough. It depends. Look, I'm just lying. It depends on what temperature you do. But anyway, today's episode is sponsored again by our friends at Modernist Pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed
+
+[14:58] per application. I wish we could call these guys. You know, the school doesn't have any of their hydrocoloids left right now. They have nothing. and I have to go do a, we're doing, look, right after this episode, we're going to do an event with Nathan Mirvold, that the FCI and Maxine Belay, and we could use some modernist pantry love right now because they have
+
+[15:13] no Kelco Gel F, Jelann left. They have no flavor-free guire. anyway. It's pathetic. Anyway, modernist pantry offers a wide range of modern ingredients and packages. It makes sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most costs only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space, whether you're looking for
+
+[15:30] hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Monitors pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry now carries ingredients for curing, including 2 types of prank powder and pure sodium nitrate. Fans of cooking issues a place in order of $35 or more before next week, show will get a free package of Prague Powder number one. Simply use the promo code CI 62. That's CI 62 and placing your order online at modernSpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. So when I find the way... Oh, this color? All right, when I when we're done the color, I got to talk about Craig Powder. Color, you're on the air. Oh, great. Well, thanks for being late. I was too. Nice. All right. So, yeah, what's all your shows? Got the number memorized, even. Beautiful. Nice. What do you got for me? Had news for you. I fix the popping sorghum issue. Oh, yeah. Yeah, filled it in a jar, backed it with a few tablespoons of water. works great now. So let's have repeat it. A few days? Just took them nice. So basically, so the thing was like, they were too dry, a couple, like a couple tablespoons of water for like what size, like a liter macing jar or something like that? And then just let it equilibrate for a couple of days at regular ambient temperature. Is it whose phone? That's your phone. It's beautiful. And so now you pop entirely evenly all the way across? I still have a lot of widows. Just sort of normally does, but... By the way, it works really wonderfully. Nice, nice use of the actual technical term for unpopped kernels. Did you know, did, uh, many people do not know that an unpopped popcorn kernel, and now I guess also, uh, by analogy is
+
+[17:16] sorghum, uh, kernel are called widows, which is an interesting fact. You mentioned that one before, Nick. Oh, I don't know. knows? I can't even want to say. So, uh, bringing back corn nuts. We went to a Peruvian restaurant in Sonoma. Right? They, uh, they deep fried Peruvian giant corn. Yeah. It was the size of the corn nut, but way lighter. much bigger than a corn nut. I'm stressing those. Well, the yeah, Peruvians have like several different kind of uh, fried uh, corn. Like, some of them have like a weird papery husk, which I actually kind of like, and some of them are in weird
+
+[17:49] shapes and they're bigger, but like the Peruvians have forgotten more about corn than we'll ever know in terms of pop,
+
+[17:56] like, like crunchy corn snacks. Do you know what I mean? Peru, like, you know, Peru is one of those places where, you know, I need to go. Everyone, when you, you know, you go to South America, they're like, yeah, you need to go to Peru. You need to go to Peru. That where it's happened in Peru. But I've never been. So I'm looking forward someday. The one thing that improving, I don't know whether I mentioned it here that's crazy is they have these, uh, it's not corn. They have these crazy, freeze, air freeze dried potatoes that they make up in the mountains that taste like, uh, um, unwashed goat fur. That accurate nastache? Unwashed goat fur. So I think I actually asked this on the air once. I'm looking for anyone out there who has a knowledge of how to actually make
+
+[18:38] these, uh, these like naturally freeze dried potatoes from Peru taste good. And I haven't had anyone tell me how to do it yet. You remember what they're called? Um, like Chunta, Chunta, something. Jack, I'm sure Jack will look at them. He sits here while we're doing looking up this stuff. Anyway, but yeah. So my main question, the reason I called, I have a boatload of
+
+[19:02] Nori, it's Raw Nori. What do I do with it? I want to make, uh, I thought of making like a Nori cracker or something like this, but the stuff tastes, it's got the texture of a wallet.
+
+[19:12] Yeah, well, it's me but it's already in sheets, you mean? It's rolled into sheet. No, no, no, no, it's raw and ore, like, taking out the ocean and drive. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you could. I'd like to leave it raw if I could. Yeah. Make some sort of snacks for me or something out of it. Well, I mean, you can rehydrate it and then get it thinner, and then when it dries out, it will be less leather
+
+[19:38] wallity, you probably just have too thick of a layer of it. You know what I mean? Oh, it's 11, whatever, I guess, a leaf of frond and thick. I, uh, rehydrated it and and, uh, put it in the dehydrator for a
+
+[19:52] few times, just cycled it to try to make it weaker and it didn't really help a lot. I was going to try freezing in X. Still, yeah. freezing might break it down. I don't know. I't have any experience with it. Another thing, I mean, obviously you could, um, you could chop it and then and
+
+[20:07] then uh, put it into a mat and then dehydrate it and it'll it'll stick together. You know what I mean? I'm pretty sure that's how they make the thin, thin sheets, right? The lava sheets as they get a bunch of it and then they spread it out thin. Hmm. I don't have any experience with this. I'm gonna have to put my thinking cap on on this one. Yeah, I thought I'd try to maybe fermenting. What else could I do? I was gonna grind it into flour, possibly, and make crackers. Yeah. Like a fleck crack or something like that. Any ideas you have would be... I'll tell you what I'll do. Sometime during this week, I'm going to try to remember to look up some seaweed processing technology and I'll try to talk about it on the next week's show. Wonderful. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right, I'll talk to you soon. All right, I have another caller, apparently. Caller? You are on the air. Hey, Dave and Nastasia. it's Brian. How are you doing? Doing well, doing well. What's up? Um, so I saw that on the modern cuisine blog, they posted uh, EIY style, what they call a vacuum concentrating system. And
+
+[21:10] basically what it is is, um, a vacuum pump. Um, the other 2 with a vacuum pond, what they call an aspirating nozzle, that hooks up to
+
+[21:19] a vacuum to a flat, um, that has, um, one of those magnetic stirring bars in it, and basically, it allows you to, um, do
+
+[21:29] vacuum kind of reductions or concentrations of, of, of liquid. So I guess it's not a roto vap, but it's a kind of DIY half. And I'm wondering what you thought, uh, if you had a look at, at, at that post, and what you thought of, um, and what you thought of it,
+
+[21:46] is there, is there anything I can do to improve what they, they have here at work? um what are you cost? All right, so here's here's the here's the deal. Um, it works. It's not, it doesn't do distillation in the sense that you, it's very difficult to save the distillate because you don't have a cold trap. So the way an aspirator works is you have a jet of
+
+[22:09] liquid, water typically that goes down and the actual speed of the jet going down, sucks the air out, carries the air with it and goes down, much
+
+[22:19] like you would, you know, if you spray air, you can suck paint up into that and then spray it out, right?
+
+[22:25] So that's what's going on with an aspirator. Now, the, in chem labs, aspirators are used as a very cheap vacuum source, and classically what you would do. is you would screw the aspirator into a water faucet, you turn it on, and you just dump water down into the sink to produce your
+
+[22:42] vacuum. Okay? Now, people don't like to do that anymore because it wastes ginormous amounts of water and it's considered, you know, not necessarily green to do that anymore.
+
+[22:52] So people have built aspirators with circulating pumps that they can circulate and they can keep the aspirators
+
+[22:56] going without wasting a lot of water. Now, the downsides of an aspirator as a pump is that they're not very quick pumps. It takes a long time to pump down to a vacuum. Second thing is an aspirator pump is limited in the number of in the depth of vacuum it can pull by the vapor pressure of water at the temperature of the water.
+
+[23:15] So you, like if you're using an aspirator, the trick is to get as cold water as you can. For instance, ice water works great. And then recirculate it to achieve a vacuum. Now, if you don't have a cold trap, you're not gonna, like I say, be able to recapture. So it's basically for reduction. And in order to get a good reduction and to stop a lot of bumping, you need to do a lot of stirring and agitation of your liquid, which is why they use a magnetic
+
+[23:38] stir plate hot plate, right? So it totally works for that. And, you know, the temperature of your liquid is going to be determined by not by the temperature of the hot plate, but by the ultimate pressure that your vacuum is able to maintain,
+
+[23:54] right? And so you can kind of, you can measure that if you want to. So this works and it's very important that you use an aspirator pump for this technology because it's one of the only types of vacuum pump that can get contaminated by vapor, ethanol
+
+[24:09] vapor, or water vapor, without crapping out on you, right? And so that's why they use that kind of a pump for that, um, because they're actually not the cheapest kind of pump. There's a much cheaper vacuum pump you can get that does a much better vacuum, but it can't handle
+
+[24:22] the it can't handle the contaminants the way that an aspirator pump can.
+
+[24:27] And by contaminants, I mean, all the stuff that I like to save in a Roto app. So definitely, if you, look, be an eBay ninja, get yourself a hot plate. They're not that expensive. Get an Erlin Meyer flask with a takeoff on it. Also not that expensive. Um, you know, a cap and the aspirator, you can, you can either buy them. They're not cheap because they don't come up that often with a circulator pump in it already. I mean, you can get it. But you can buy the actual individual aspirator units and hook up a pump yourself. And I recommend going to any meth head, like a methamphetamine production
+
+[25:03] website by, you know, by like these tweet junkies. And because they need a vacuum source to do some of their distillation work. And so, you know, they have kindly put plans out there where you can go basically to the
+
+[25:16] Home Depot and build an aspirator pump for fairly, fairly cheap. you know, because remember, they need to be able to do this stuff without getting caught, you know, in like trailers and whatnot.
+
+[25:25] So, you know, they have that pretty lockdown. And what are their website? Oh, I hesitate to actually mention the name of it, but you know, Google, like, you know, DIY meth lab or DIY aspirator. Am I getting in trouble? I'm getting in trouble. I'm being told that I'm getting in trouble. Anyway, Nastasia shaking her head and making the vegan face. But that is, in fact, where I learned how to build my own aspirator pump back in the day. And I'm assuming that the feds haven't figured out how to go on and kill all those websites yet. Um, even though it has been like 6 years. But anyway, good luck experimenting with that and call back and tell us how it works. Okay, I'll, uh, I'll Google and see if I can get some from the math heads. All righty. Thanks a lot. Okay, now, Keysong, back to Keys question, which I never freaking answered. Okay, so we've we've established that the deli turkey is awful because they start with low quality turkey, overcook it and pump it up with a bunch of crap to keep it moist, right?
+
+[26:26] Okay. So the other part of Keith's question was, why does so much fish always have a frozen taste? And I know you can get good frozen fish, but what's the secret? All right, there's a couple problems. Here's the thing with fish. And with anything, really, that you freeze. Home freezers don't actually freeze everything solid. You're only freezing a portion of the water that's in a food, right? And so when you're freezing in a freezer, ice crystals are actually forming on the outside of the
+
+[26:52] cells, and in essence, dehydrating the actual cells in the muscles. And what that means is, is that all of the stuff in the cells, proteins, liquids, enzymes, um, uh, myoglobin, anything like that, and fats and whatever, whatever's
+
+[27:09] there is getting more concentrated. And as it's getting more concentrated, even though the temperature is low and lowering, certain reactions can take place very quickly. And one of those reactions is rancidity. So what happens is fish typically contains a lot of
+
+[27:23] polyunsaturated, um, fatty acids. Those are the types of fatty acids that are very prone to going rancid. Fish also have a lot of things in them, you know, like blood and whatnot, that are that basically help to catalyze rancidity reactions in their own
+
+[27:43] fat. So, um, that thing, that rancid taste,
+
+[27:47] as I'm assuming what you're talking about, happens in the freezer, just like it would out in, uh, not mean, I mean, it happens slower, obviously, but it still happens, even though the thing's
+
+[27:55] frozen. And it's all because fish isn't actually frozen, uh, like solid down to 100% uh,
+
+[28:03] solidity. Okay? Now, there's a couple ways to solve this. Don't store your fish too long in a freezer. That's one, right? Two is to vacuum bag fish before you freeze it because in the absence of oxygen, it's going to be very difficult for the fat to oxidize and go rancid, right? So you want to get rid of air, you want to not store it in the freezer too
+
+[28:21] long, if you can't get rid of the air. Uh, but you still getting rid of the air is the main thing. And the same thing happens with bacon, by the way. Bacon goes rancid in the freezer. Um, the, unless it's vac-packed. The other thing is in the really high quality fish, the sushi
+
+[28:36] stuff, it's frozen solid, is they freeze it way down. they superfreeze it. To, uh, I forget what they call it. They probably call it the eutectic point or something like that, even though I don't even think that has meaning. Anyway. They superfreeze it down to the point where literally all of the water is
+
+[28:53] solid and the chemical reactions cease to take place at a reasonable rate.
+
+[28:58] And so that happens down around -70 C. So if you go to like some high-end sushi joints or if you go to Del Posto has one, a bunch of people have these
+
+[29:07] superfreezers and they store their meats in the superfreezers and there's basically 0 temperature cycling, everything is
+
+[29:15] solid. There's no recrystallizing and decrystallizing and recrystallizing and so the quality stays perfect, right? That's a good answer, right? Okay. Jack, should we go to one more break or should I take another question? Yeah we should. All right, we'll go to one more commercial break. Call your questions two. For this break, we have a certain song dedicated to a certain somebody from a certain
+
+[29:35] vegan-faced co-host. So, here's that.
+
+[29:51] If I were you, woman. And you were my man. You'd have no other woman. You'd be weak as a lamb. If you have a strength. To walk out that door. My love would overrule my sins. And I call you back for more if I were you. You were my one If I were you. You were my woman. And you were my name.
+
+[30:32] Yeah, so who's this? Who's Gladys Knight
+
+[30:35] and the Pips? Yeah, but who was that? Who requested it for Nastasia? No, no, no. This is a dedication from a certain co-host to assert somebody else. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Nice. All right, nice. That's for an episode of issues. Some secret love going on. You know what you got to play, then? If it's a secret, you got to pull out the Kenny Rogers, the one where like daytime friends and nighttime lovers, hoping no one else discovers. Yeah, it's good stuff, right? Anyway, okay, we have 2 unrelated questions from Ryan,
+
+[31:06] right? from Ryan Santos. One, what's the best way to clean my circulator answer? It depends on what kind of circulator you have. But in general, the new plastic ones are a little more difficult to clean out the insides
+
+[31:18] of, um, the old stainless steel ones are easy to kind of work with. You can use a combination of like a CLR, which is like clear lime rust remover. You can use like a light, like a degreaser, and you can actually circulate these things with the product. So you circulate it with that. You can get the tabs that are used to clean out combi ovens. Basically anything that's going to eat grease. I mean, obviously basic solutions, eat grease very well, but I'm not exactly sure whether or not you can put a very, very basic solution onto
+
+[31:52] the, onto the circulators. I have to check it. But basically, you run it with detergent and a degreaser, like, you know,
+
+[31:58] like, uh, commercial degreaser and and then rinse it in water and uh, and run it again in hot water and they should clean up. But it is a problem that needs to be addressed. I told Philip Preston on the new plastic one. I think he should install little shoulder screws so that you can very easily pop the back off and really clean in and out where the pump
+
+[32:16] is, but not yet. Hasn't done it yet. I'm sure he's going to do it because I think it's a good idea. Anyway, two. I experienced a weird reaction at a recent dinner. I served a local baby persimmons with a green tea called Hojita, Hojita. Hojita, Hojita. Some reaction happened to cause an extreme tannin reaction and made my mouth super dry and
+
+[32:35] astringent, unlike anything I've experienced. Do you have any idea what's happening? Was it a reaction in the skins and the tea? The reaction didn't happen with water, soda, beer, et cetera. Well, this is interesting. I mean, well, obviously, look, you have tea. T has, uh, T has tannins in it, right? And persimmons have tannins in them. And the way tannins work is they bind to proteins in your mouth prolene rich proteins. Uh, and, uh, those proteins lubricate your mouse. So when those proteins bind to the tannins, now your mouth feels dry because it's not lubricated anymore. And that's a stringency. Okay? Now, in persimmons, persimmons naturally have a lot of tannins in them. And what you do, you know, normally as you let, you know, like a persimmon, you let it really, really ripen, the ones that have a lot of tannins, you let them ripen for a long
+
+[33:26] time, the pectin starts to, the cells start to break down, the pectin and the tannins, which are separated
+
+[33:31] normally, get together, they complex. Once the tanning gets cooked up to the pectin, it no longer has a astringency and bang, stuff's not as stringency anymore. You take apples that are very highly tannic, which are known as spitters because you can't eat them, but they're used in making cider and whatnot. If you dry them out, when they're drying, the tissue starts to break down, tannins complex with
+
+[33:51] the other parts of the apple, precipitate into something that doesn't cause a stringency and boom. So you learn a weird situation where you took 2 things that weren't very astringent on their
+
+[34:02] own, and somehow the tenants in them have a higher now affinity to the proteins in your
+
+[34:10] mouth than they did before. And I don't know what would cause that, whether, you know, I don't know. It's very interesting. It's another thing that, you know, I should bring up with McGee. Too bad this didn't come in last week. I could have asked him when I spoke to him. And by the way, I don't know we mentioned it. I did ask Harold McGee about a separate question we had last week on garlic and whether there's any units of
+
+[34:28] garlicness that, and he said no, but we also have some information, interesting information. Not going to have time to get to it today from our good friend at UC Davis, Ariel Johnson, who's going to, who sent us a paper to read on that, and also has some very interesting stuff to report on limes. It's a good reason to tune in next week because there's going to be a lot of interesting line work coming out. Anyway, so I don't know exactly what's going on, but somehow the 2 things mixed together. Um, I have, you know, synergistically, uh, increased the ability of those
+
+[34:57] tandents to bind with, with, uh, your, uh, proteins in your saliva. Interesting. I just said saliva, which is the word nastasia hates. Anyway, hello, Nastasia and Dave. I was listening to your podcast last week and now remember that there was a question about the white powder on combo. I did a research project last summer in Denmark with South Denmark University
+
+[35:15] and Lars Williams, who's at Noma, to see whether we could quantify mommy in the lab. We worked a bit on Scandinavian seaweeds. And I recall the white powder on combo is Manitol. I might have read it in a book. I don't remember or searched online, where there's confirmation. Um, Manitol, uh, look, I, I, I kind of remembered that too, but I still couldn't find quickly the information on
+
+[35:35] that. Manitol, interesting, is a sugar, uh, a sugar that is uh, discovered in mana. Yeah, you know, mana, mana from mana. So interesting what goes around comes around anyway. And Manitol from Kombu. Well, it's a sugar alcohol. Anyway, but Manitou for Combo is pretty harmless and some websites say there's a sweetness to the combo and therefore shouldn't be wiped off. Okay, aside from that. Aside from the combo, I have a question about French fries. This is from Larissa, by the way. I am now working on a research project to develop an optimal recipe for French fries at
+
+[36:06] Fundacio, Alici in Spain, which is, you know, like a school that teams up with Harvard to do the cooking
+
+[36:11] to cooking thing. Long story short, I was an undergrad teaching assistant for Harvard Science, a cooking course in 2010, which is how I learned about Alicia. So after graduating with a physics degree, I came to Alicia for 6 month internship. Okay, so for the project, I've been consulting a lot of specific papers and you are another blog post on what's going on. We make French fries. Most of my findings have been similar to yours. Plus some interesting things. For example, when we freeze raw potatoes before frying, The fries are extremely hard and get harder with time. We had some fries that got really hard with time. They were kind of gross. Anyway. Uh, tests ongoing. Anyway, I was wondering whether you have any new findings since the last fries post in 2010, especially on using different potato varieties. Here in Spain, the 2 common types, we
+
+[36:47] get are Kennebecs, which are white, and Agra is, which are yellow. Agra is yellow color being more pleasing, the majority of people. And the Kennebecs come out of the fryer, extremely blonde, and don't turn yellow. Okay, Kennebec's, Nastasia and I were hanging out with a potato lunatic at a show once
+
+[37:00] and You weren't there for that one? Anyway, so I talked to the potato lunatic. someone's literally staring in at the radio station going, what is these people? What are they doing? You see that? Anyway, and she didn't like what she, she, uh, she saw, she made the vegan face and walked away. Uh, so the um, uh, Kennebecs uh, are good, very good potato, but apparently they don't do well on
+
+[37:22] storage and so for storage, they're not going to necessarily work very, very well. I haven't done the research on varieties the way I want. I mean, typically, look, for a French fry, you're looking for high solids, low moisture, uh, you know, starchy uh, potato. And, you know, the good old-fashioned russet Burbank that we use is pretty good for
+
+[37:42] that or any kind of similar kind of high starch, high solid, low moisture potato. The interesting thing about potatoes is that also the optimum potato isn't just a variety. It is a variety and how it was stored because potato goes
+
+[37:58] through uh potato goes through a lot of changes during storage. In fact, older potatoes that have been stored properly, not ones that are all shriveled and nasty, but an older potato that has been stored properly is actually a
+
+[38:09] uh, better uh, frying potatoes. So there are people who don't like the new crop potatoes when they come out and will continue to use the ones that have been stored for a whole year under coal storage
+
+[38:20] because or not coal storage, but under optimal storage because that those are the ones that they like that they fry up nice. So anyway, also on my fry, my fries, I'm going to, I'm going to not repost it, but like, you know, we're, we're opening up a bar concept here soon and there's going to be
+
+[38:34] french fries on the menu. just letting you know there's going to be french fries on the menu, and it's not going to be the exact recipe that we have on the blog because that recipe was written for
+
+[38:41] 3/8 inch french fries. I now favor a half inch French fry, and the trick to a French fry is always about getting the moisture level exactly right on the inside of the
+
+[38:50] French fry. If you go, if you dehydrate them too much. You get hollow fry. Uh, and if you don't do it enough, you get a soggy fry. At the same time, you know, I don't want the outside to be hard and leathery. I want it to be crisp, but I want it to bite nicely and not be like, I don't want it to be like a rock. If I want to eat a rock. serve you a rock. You know what I mean? Anyway. So, uh, and so basically in my post, I didn't recommend if you're going to use uh, pectin XSPL, which is the enzyme that we use to uh, break down the, uh, pectin on the, and
+
+[39:22] then we cellulose in the service of the French uh, fries so that you get uh, very good crust formation. Mirvold, at all, Maxime and Chris recommend using ultrasonic bath for similar purpose.
+
+[39:32] When you do that, I recommend not drying after you do your initial blanch step. I recommend not doing too much air drying, because that leads to phenomenon known as hollow fry, where you've gotten rid of so much moisture that the potato on the
+
+[39:49] inside just doesn't have any structure anymore and it goes hollow. When you switch to a half inch fry, you do need to bring some of that drying back just to get to moisture level right. So like with anything else. It just a matter of paying attention to your ingredients and figuring out what's going on. anyway. I hope that's helpful. Matthew writes in. I've heard Dave say a couple of times not to solve things too far ahead of time or before cooking, long, low cooking
+
+[40:12] process is this will eliminate some juiciness. In my head, I remember reading something from McGee, to the contrary, that the general wisdom of not wanting to salt meat too far
+
+[40:20] ahead is it would cause it to leak juice is actually bunk. What's the deal? I like the word bunk. Oh, he also follows up and says, how do you feel about salting meat that will be braised for a long time. For example, salting or brining some beef overnight before braising, so the salt penetrates all the way through the meat. I guess this also applies to salty marinades. Is the issue at hand, the salt will turn the texture of the meat mushy, or that you believe it will rob it of its juices, which I
+
+[40:44] thought, McGee, uh, demon. Well, McGee's favorite, McGee's like famous debunk is on searing, sealing in the juices, right? That's his super famous debunk, right? Um, but it's not the juiciness. In fact, when you salt meat, the literal amount of water in it is going to be higher because
+
+[41:03] the after cooking because the proteins, even though you actually some moisture will come
+
+[41:07] out. The meat itself will bind water better, which is what brining does, which is why when you brine chicken, it, you know,
+
+[41:15] it, you can overcook it a little bit and it still stays juicy, okay? So, um, salting can help juiciness that way, and it's not that it makes uh, texture mushy. It just makes it firmer, more like a cured texture. And so when you're eating something like a steak, You don't want that firmness that you get from kind of curing with salt, and so you want to stay away from it. In braises, especially a traditional braise, where you're going to cook the thing to
+
+[41:41] death and you're using the gelatin, the collagen breakdown in the gelatin to moisturize it. I don't think it's going to be an issue, and there you want the salt in there for flavor. So I think it's okay. It's when you're going to serve something like a steak and you want to have the texture of
+
+[41:53] a, like, uh, you know, a regular juicy steak and not have it be firm. not that it's actually less juicy. It's just firmer. Does that make sense? Anyway, so, uh, I am I am not in, uh, I'm in no way contradicting McGee's. We are in agreement. Okay. So, um, All right. So there's a question coming in. I got to answer it because it's coming up on Thanksgiving. We mentioned, this is from Joe from Chicago. I started to think of a day when you no longer release your weekly podcast. I'm constantly learning inspired. Thank you. Thank you. Speaking of inspiration, I came away from last week's episode, feeling compelled to make a modernist version of
+
+[42:31] Turduckin, which is where, you know, you wrapped the turkey and the duck and the chicken and yeah, you go back and listen last week if you wanted to the specifics. Anyway, but have the following questions before I ruin a perfectly good turkey. What specific kind of meat glue would you recommend for this application? You're going to want it, Joe? You going to want to get transglutaminates, which is Activa, RM? RM is the one you sprinkle. If you want, you can get GS, GS is the one that you paint on at a paste. I'm kind of an RM junkie, but, you know, GS will work fine. Don't get any other variety for this because, you know, you might run into problems. So RM or GS. And you could probably get them from modernistpantry.com. too. You mentioned gluing the turkey skin to the flattened turkey breast. Would you recommend gluing any of the other layers together? Joe, I glue all the layers together. So what you're going to do is you're going to put a sprinkling of glue. Every time you put a layer of meat down, you're going to sprinkle a little glue to get good adhesion all the way through. Um, and then what about stuffing as a layer or perhaps the core? I do use a sausage layer in the middle of the turduck in between the chicken and the duck. And I do it, put it there because that's where you want like a thermal barrier. So the duck doesn't want to be at 63, duck wants to be
+
+[43:39] at, uh, like, you know, 5758, you know, Maxley 59. And then the chicken doesn't want to be anything below 63. So the sausage layer goes there because it can kind of take up that thermal difference. It'll be good in that whole range. And so that's why we put this stuffing there. You could also put it in the core, but the problem is it won't get cooked at that temperature. So you either have to pre-cook the core then. Um, or, you know, do something else. I wouldn't put the stuffing at the core because the core is where the least cooked stuff is going to be. Uh, for, to retain the tube shape that is achieved primarily through meat glue and plastic, uh, the meat glue and plastic wrap, or would you recommend butcher's twine plastic wrap? Don't go with butcher's twine. If you've ever tried to meat glue stuff with butcher's twine, it's a bloody freaking mess, don't do it. It's gonna, everything, it's like, just use the plastic wrap and roll it. If you're against cooking in plastic wrapped, then take the plastic wrap off before you cook it. By the way, Wiley was doing some plastic wrapping tubes at the Harvard and he got heckled by a couple of students who was like, you're using plastic, you're killing the
+
+[44:35] earth. Remember? Anyway. Uh, and he was like, what? I think you just ignored them. Uh, five. You mentioned using a thermometer. Do you have any tips for using a probe thermometer with a ziploc without compromising the integrity of the bag? Is there an easy way to do it without pulling the bags out of the bath? No. I wouldn't put a Ziploc through. I mean, I want to put a thermometer through a Ziploc bag. They make semi-waterproof and heatproof thermometers. Cooper Atkins, does it? You can theoretically dishwash, you can stick them in the Ziploc bag. But I've had bad luck. I've had them always leak. So I wouldn't um, I wouldn't recommend doing that. Look, in a plastic wrap situation with a large thing, like a turduck in. I just shove the, shove it probe through the, through the plastic wrap and you're
+
+[45:16] going to get a little bit of water leakage in, but over the size of like a whole kind of turducking thing, it's not
+
+[45:20] going to be, uh, it's not going to be a big problem. Um, okay. So those are my recommendations on that. And to round it out. Uh, we have a call. I don't even know who this is from, actually, but someone sent us in. Oh, Steve. Hey, Steve. So Steve says the Atwater Systems failure to address actual energy availability is well known. But people seem to assume it just scales uniformly, and that strikes me as a very flawed assumption and sends us a link to an interesting paper, which I can't actually get to. And the paper is known as processing food extensively by thermal and non-thermal techniques. Anyway. So, the Atwater system, for those of you that don't know, right? Atwater was the guy who his name was Wilbur Olin Atwater, and he was alive, you know, in
+
+[46:06] the in the, you know, he was working roughly from after the Civil War up to the early part of the
+
+[46:10] 1900s. And, um, he was the one that kind of figured out food energy in calories, right? So what he would do is he would eat a bunch of stuff and then kind of measure, kind
+
+[46:22] of, what, you know, what he was that he, that he ate. He would burn it to kind of figure out how much energy it had, and then he would measure the, like, his poop and he would burn his poop and figure out how much stuff was left in his poop. He would try to figure out how much stuff he was peeing out. He tried to figure out how much he was breathing out in terms of figuring out like
+
+[46:38] what, like how you're actually utilizing the energy that's in food. And so the concept of the calorie is being a, like a reasonable thing was basically from, you know, stemming from his research and going on. And the point is, is in fact, is that it's kind of bunk, right? And so now we all have these calorie things that we see and they try to, they basically just take individual units, like protein has this much calories. Fat has this many calories. Carbohydrates have this many calories and they lump them and then scale them. And Steve, you're exactly right. This, it's completely incorrect. It's based on a whole bunch of like super incorrect assumptions. Um, you know, the people who are, and the problem with it is, you know, as you say, that there, no one has really given an alternative to try and figure out how it
+
+[47:26] works. But my favorite is this. Look, if you're eating a raw vegan diet, everybody knows that if you take a look at
+
+[47:33] what's what's excreted from your body, that you don't digest it effectively, right? Uh, and everybody knows that if you drink a gallon of corn oil, you're not going to absorb that thing, you're going to be spraying some corn oil out the other side, right?
+
+[47:46] So, uh, clearly the combinations you eat, how you eat, and the quantities you eat, and what you're eating is going to make a huge difference. But the paper that he, that he, you know, sent to us is very interesting because they did a bunch of testing on availability of energy from food, cooking versus not
+
+[48:04] cooking. And this is to go back to the raw vegan section we had before, and a lot more,
+
+[48:09] typically, with meats, not just with starches, which is obvious, but with meats, cooking, it makes a lot more of the
+
+[48:15] energy, apparently available, a lot more than just beating the hell out of it or blending it or anything like that. So another argument for cooking and meat, cooking issues.
+
+[48:31] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I just can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Raketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
+
+[0:06] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is, with Raketin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[0:36] points, and with many loyalty programs, because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead. Take a trip, find that perfect hotel, book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain, wherever you want to go, go with
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+[0:51] Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's RAK-U-T-E-N. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You are listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[1:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the Heritage Radio
+
+[1:28] Network at Roberta's Pizzeria in the back in the little container they have cut here for our radio station in the Bushwick, joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, although a sick
+
+[1:37] Nastasia. Yes. Right? Yes. Listen, while I talk about Nastasia. I'm going to tell you to call all of your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. You gotta hurry. because we're only here to answer your Thanksgiving related cooking questions or otherwise for the next 45 minutes or so. So, Nastasia, not feeling well, huh? No. You know it was even more depressing. Getting on the subway and seeing everyone with their suitcases at Port Authority going home.
+
+[2:05] Well, they were at Port Authority, so you can laugh for them for that reason. Port Authority is, for those of you that haven't visited our fine city. Port Authority is a hellhole. I mean, a 100% unmitigated hunk of crap. One job. One job. one job. Get people into the city and out of the city in an effective manner. So what are some things you need? Good transport back and forth, right? Good signage, friendly staff. People, yeah. Any of those? No. No. Worse staff, worse, unless you work there, in which case I love you. Worst signage. You know, the building itself is split into 2 sections with a road running through
+
+[2:44] it. So you're like, where's my bus? Oh, it's in the other building. How come there's no sign saying it's in the other freaking building? Because this is Port Authority. What do you want? An easy way to get in and out of the city? The hell is wrong with you? Anyway, Port Authority sucks. The only thing that kind of rivals Port Authority for sucking has got to be Penn Station. The other biggest hunk of crap in the entire city. And also the other place is supposed to get people in and out of the city relatively easy. Again, for those of you that don't take trains in out of the city either because you're rich enough to always have a car or whatever. I don't know why. But, uh, um, for some reason, even at Grand Central, at Grand Central, I can tell you right now on a
+
+[3:20] program exactly what track your train will be on in a month and a half . Okay? Uh, at Penn Station. They like to wait until 5 minutes before the train's going to leave so that everyone with their luggage is smashing into each other down a tiny corridor to rush and beat each other up and
+
+[3:38] like knock each other into the tracks to get to the train. Does this make any freaking sense? Come on people. Anyway, all right, enough of that. Okay. Did I already tell them to call them their questions? Anyway, so I think the reason Nastasia is sick is because Nastasia was, in part, aside from all the other cooking issues and, you know, new company related work that we're doing. She ran the wedding celebration for our good buddy, Nils
+
+[4:01] Norn, and Vicki, you know, Chef Nils Norn, our buddy, had his wedding. Never thought he never thought he would get married till he found Vicki, the right woman. And Nastasia forgets to tell me it's true story. Forgets to tell me, hey, Nils requested that you make some cocktails for the wedding, which I would gladly do. I would do anything for nils. Uh, doesn't doesn't tell me, make them and was like, they've made them. I'm like the hell I made them. They were good. They were delicious, right? But like, I'm not going to take... So my recipe. If I make if I make Bobby Flay's recipe, I was like, hey, hey, Bobby Flay made your chicken. Anyway, they were good. So, you know, to you goes the credit. But had they sucked, you would have gone the blame as well, because that's the way she goes. All right. Matthew writes in. Hi, Dave and Nastasia, I'm looking forward to today's show. This Friday, I'm catering a party, and the host has requested me to prepare a filet of beef that's tenderloins for all you other people out there. I don't have access to a circulator, although there's a slight chance I could borrow one from some friends and we'll have to cook the tenderlens from raw at the apartment where the party is. I will probably cook one from medium rare to medium, which is already too high for my taste, by the way, Matthew. Uh, and another medium to well done, and in parentzy,
+
+[5:16] right, it's not my choice, obviously. Not anyone's choice. What the hell? Just put a blindfold on the customer, so they don't know how overcooked it is, and they'll enjoy it when it's cooked less anyway. If you don't have the opportunity to poke their eyes out so they can't look at the color. I mean, it's what, you know, you're going to have to. Obviously, if you do tenderloin, well done, you're going to have to sauce it. Sauce to be Jesus out of it in order to have it be like even moderately edible, right or wrong. Right. Anyway. Do you have any do you have any suggestions, guidelines, temperatures, or general advice for
+
+[5:44] preparing beef filet with standard issue home kitchen equipment? I have about a 3 hour window from when I arrive at the house until the meat will be served. Okay, look it. If you really do have to cook one of these suckers until it's gray and
+
+[5:59] unappetizing. You're going to have to make a delicious sauce to go with it. I see she has something, a sauce with a lot of fat in it that's bound. have the fat pull out, a cream-based sauce, perhaps. Perhaps onions, cassis, and cream, some mixture thereof might be good with some reduced beef stock, right? Styles? That sounds good, right? Anyhoo, so that's one thing. Another thing, if you're gonna, look, if you're supposed to overcook it, because your customers want it overcooked, you might as well go ballsy and do a beef
+
+[6:28] Wellington, because that's kind of ballsy, right? Where you take, you're going to sear off the meat, then you're going to take a mixture of pate and
+
+[6:34] sautéed mushrooms and shallots and put it over the top of the tenderloin, wrap the sucker and puff pastry, and then cook it in a high oven, guaranteed to overcook the tenderloin. But if they want it overcooked anyway, that's what I would recommend. Now, tenderloin is interesting. It's a, you know, it's a cut that a lot of chefs don't give a lot of merit to
+
+[6:51] because, uh, it doesn't have a lot of connected tissue and people think of it as a fairly, as far as beef goes, not having a lot of beef
+
+[6:58] flavors. So chefs tend to make fun of the cut. Now, it can be delicious as a textural thing and it does, I mean, come on, it does have some beef flavor, right? Yeah. So, uh, and and sexist, it's usually like a lot of it basically there's a lot of sexism among news flash, a lot of sexism in this business. And, uh, you know, it's seen as kind of a ladies cut is kind of like, it's the Cosmo of stakes, basically. Uh, so, uh, but the trick to cooking one is one, not overcooking it. Because there's no connective tissue. It wants to cook at a very, very low temperature. So when I am using a circulator. I only cook it up to like 54.4 Celsius, which is very low, rare. Uh, because it doesn't have any sort of fat, really, or connect tissue to protect it from overcooking. Two, you don't want to cook it that long because, you know, even with a low temperature, even if you had a circulator,
+
+[7:46] um, the meat would get, um, a kind of mushy if you cooked it for a long time. So if you, and I'm presuming, by the way, you are writing the question that you want to keep it whole as a whole
+
+[7:57] filet and then cut serving. Otherwise, I would just cut it into steaks and cook the steaks, which is a lot easier to do, well, using home equipment. Now, I'm going to go radical on you. First of all, if you have to do it at home equipment, I would put a crust on it, and then I would put it in the oven, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out of the oven to try and
+
+[8:16] get a more moderate heat on it so it doesn't overcook. But that's a pain in the butt. and if you don't do it all the time. That's how David Kinch like now replicates, because he does David Kinch from Manresa, amazing chef. Uh, he uh, moved away from using circulators and instead mimics uh, the effect of a circulator, which is a low average heat input by moving the meat in and out, in and out, in and out of an oven, which at the same time has the high heat of the oven, which
+
+[8:42] crisp crisp and browns the outside while he's getting the low average heat input. So he's doing it that way. You can do it that way. Here's something I suggest. Go to the apartment. Most people's hot water taps at an apartment are fairly hot. Measure the temperature of the hot water using an instant reed thermometer. If the water is within a couple of degrees of 54, like if it's
+
+[9:05] 53, all the way up to like 55, 56, then I would put the
+
+[9:09] tenderloin in a Ziploc bag with a little bit of oil and turn the running water on.
+
+[9:14] If the water's too hot at a tiny bit of cold water and it'll stabilize, get a steady but not severe stream of hot water.
+
+[9:22] This don't work in an apartment, by the way, in a house because you'll typically run out of hot water, but
+
+[9:27] an apartment, usually you won't. So you can run a steady stream of hot water over a Ziploc bag and I've actually cooked food this way in a pinch. It's completely eco-unfriendly. Uh, but uh, it will work. Bring it. You want to make sure that the thing cooks through in under, you want to cook it in about 45 to 50 minutes and a tenderloin will cook through. It depends on how thick it is. It might take an hour and a half if it's really thick. and then pull it out, cool it down a little bit and sear the outside of it. Is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So about 54 is where I shoot for it for rare. I do not go above 56. Tenorloin has a very, very short window of yumminess. Okay. Now, our good friend Ariel from UC Davis, is she postdoc now at UC Davis? Is she still a grad student? What is she? she postdoc? Anyway, our good buddy, who used to be at NYU, is friends with Kent Kirschenbaum. And she gave us some very interesting information. She's running some tests on lime juice for us. for herself, really. But, you know, it also helps us because, uh, you know, people who've heard me yap about lime juice a lot know that, uh, a lot of people prefer lime juice that's 3 or 4 hours
+
+[10:37] old as opposed to very fresh lime juice in a cocktail. And so she's doing the preliminary studies on what's actually going on in the lime
+
+[10:43] juice. And apparently the volatile, the level of volatiles decreases rapidly over that 1st 3 to 4 hour
+
+[10:48] chunk and other flavors are starting to come in. So it looks like there might be an actual sweet spot in the lime juice, if you like a specific profile. More to come. She's going to work on it more in the new year, but that's pretty interesting, huh? Yeah. And the other thing is that she wrote in about pungency and garlic, which is something that, you know, I apparently now got
+
+[11:07] wrong and apparently McGee, also, we both got it wrong. There is a pungency scale for alliums, onions in particular, but I'm sure it would also work with garlic, and it's called the pyruvate scale. So what happens is, is when you convert Alley in or whatever it is to Allison, whichever way it goes from the non-pungent to the pungent, using the
+
+[11:28] enzymes, when you cut or crush garlic or onion, that pungency that's created also creates a molecule of pyruvate, which is easily measurable and doesn't degrade.
+
+[11:39] So what happens is they as fast. So they make the, they crush up onions and they use a relatively inexpensive piece of equipment, a special photometer as opposed to like doing, you know,
+
+[11:49] chromatography, more expensive process. And they can measure directly the level of pyruvate that's
+
+[11:56] there and therefore have a measure of how pungent the product is. So there is a measure of pungency, that in from Ariel, and you can look it up. It was even on Wikipedia. I should have looked at it. Pyruvate scale. Dumb. I'm dumb. Anyway, she sent us a paper. Um, and you can, you can just go look it up for those of you that have that sort of, uh, that sort of a capability to look up papers, pyruvate scale. Anyway, interesting, yeah. Yeah. All right. Now, Jason, from the southwest of England, writes in, says, I'm a dedicated podcast listener, but usually cannot listen live and call in because I'm in England, although I'm a native New Yorker.
+
+[12:34] So hopefully I can ask Dave a question via email. Well, here you are doing it. Here it is happening. Okay. I had an argument recently with some people, most notably my wife, about storing coffee. She told me it should not be stored cold. I keep my current bag of coffee in the fridge and any supplies in the freezer. No one could explain to me why this was bad, and I assume that reducing the rate of oxidation in general spoilers by keeping the coffee cold has to be a major benefit given how fast coffee gets old and stale.
+
+[13:00] My rationale also include the fact that the ground coffee is going to come up to temperature super fast, given its low moisture content, high surface area, and the fact that it's being immersed in 100 degree water. What do you think? The science says story cold, but people seem to be arguing against us for some reason. Thanks. Jason, who adds in Parens, stuck in South West England. Well, listen. Hey, if you're going to be in Southwest England, Jason. Now's the time. Shout out to Somerset and the cider folks over there. You guys got to be rolling an apple cider at this point. I mean maybe it's not done yet. But that's one of the apple cider producing kingdoms like centers of the universe right there. I mean, if I, like, like, in fact, if I had the time, if I wasn't working on so much stuff, and if it wasn't Thanksgiving, I'd be getting on a plane right now and flying to the other side, and, you know, sorry, Somerset, I'd be going to Kent to go to the Brogdale collection and chewing down on some apples and having some delicious cider over
+
+[13:56] there. So good time to be from the south. I mean, good time of year to be from the south of England. Remember? Yeah, it was a fun time. Good time. Yeah, fun, fun, fun. Yep. I'm sick. Anyway. That's fine, Nastasia invitation, by the way. Okay, so back to the question on coffee. Now listen. I was not able, listen, I was not able to find any actual scholarly research on this, but I will tell you the reasoning that I have heard over the
+
+[14:24] years. And it's also, you know, not to choose sides with your wife, but that you shouldn't store the coffee in the
+
+[14:31] fridge and here's why. It's not the cold. uh, it's not the, it's not the cold that's hurting it. It's the fact that you get a lot of condensation as the temperature changes up and down, up and
+
+[14:43] down, up and down. So if you had, if you had coffee in a hermetically sealed bag that had no moisture or, you know, the same amount of
+
+[14:53] moisture, the coffee had in it, controlled atmosphere, let's say, CO2 purge, nitrogen
+
+[14:58] purge, vacuum, right? Uh, and you pulled it, uh, in and out of the fridge, there might actually be some damage from temperature cycling, but the damage wouldn't be that great because you wouldn't be getting any condensation from the
+
+[15:09] outside, from moisture coming into the outside. In a normal situation, there's moisture and the condensation, that moisture on the surface of the beans as the temperature changes is what's causing the problem. And that's especially going to happen if you're in and out, in and out, in and out. If you are going to freeze the coffee, freezing is viable, but you have to make sure that there's no moisture in the package at all.
+
+[15:33] So you want to get all the air out of the package, if you have the ability to
+
+[15:37] flush with some sort of gas, like CO2 or whatnot, if it's not fresh, very fresh beans, by the way, when you roast a fresh bean, if you
+
+[15:45] were to, by the way, you should just roast, you should roast your own beans, which is a load of fun, just get some green beans, roast
+
+[15:49] them. a lot of fun. Uh, I mean, it's really, it really is. And you don't have to get really some fancy equipment. You can start just with a pan and you know, spoon, you know, shake it around. If you just invest, I think, like 20 bucks in a whirly pop popcorn maker, they make great, you can roast coffee very well in that. I know I'm going to get some calls saying that I'm a jerk, but you don't even need a thermometer. You can do it based on sound and smell.
+
+[16:15] Don't say it, don't tell me when I said that, but you can do good coffee roasting just based on that, or you can move to an air popcorn popper, a number of ways to do roast coffee. But then you can do it. But if you roast your own coffee, you'll notice that they gas a lot. If you were to take freshly roasted coffee that you just roasted and sealed it in a
+
+[16:33] jar, assuming the jar didn't blow up, I don't think it would make enough pressure to blow up the jar. But when you open it, it will you get a blast of CO2 out because the CO2 is being evolved out of the beans as they age. And so that's why they actually have one way valves in these bags to stop the bags from puffing up so that the CO2 can get out.
+
+[16:51] Once the beans have gotten rid of all of their CO2 beans. Once the beans have gotten rid of the CO2, then they start to oxidize much more rapidly and
+
+[17:02] they and they stale. Um, I don't know what got me in. I't know where I got into that. But my point is, is that, uh, they want to be protected from oxygen, oxygen is going to be their enemy, moisture is going to be their enemy. So I think that the, also, your fridge has lots of, uh, man, I don't know about your fridge. You might have the cleanest fridge in the world, but fridges tend to have a lot of stinks in them. They have a little stank. Uh, which is why like when a fridge, when the power goes out, you realize how stinky your fridge is because it's not cold anymore, which doesn't, you know, doesn't dampen down the
+
+[17:31] volatiles and you when they smell it. So coffee, which is very porous, tends to pick up bad aromas. It tends to pick up moisture, which condenses on it as it goes in and out of the
+
+[17:38] fridge, and so the consensus is, don't do it. Yeah, good job. Yeah. All right. Nastasia's happy with my answer. I hope, Jason, that you were happy with my answer. What? Should we take a break Nastasia thinks we should go to our 1st commercial break. So we'll do that. Call in order questions. 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128, cooking issues.
+
+[18:01] Like a passes, well, good night.
+
+[18:07] I belonged inside your harsh embarks.
+
+[18:16] I'm joining to your magnet's arm.
+
+[18:26] I wish I could eat your cancer
+
+[18:32] when you took back. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey your
+
+[18:49] wait I
+
+[18:57] Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
+
+[19:19] kids forgive, no, but won't just yet. Get myself off angel hair and
+
+[19:30] baby breath. Looking heaven of your highness, I... Go down your bed, canoe so I can climb right back. Welcome back to cooking issues, call your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So the Nirvana, folks. I liked the Nirvana. That was what I grew up with. So I'm at this wedding that Nastasia is running, right? This was not my fault. Hey, look, so the DJ is playing all kind of easy, you know, not easy, but, you know, like, you know, brick house, like wedding kind of stuff, you know?
+
+[20:17] My to maite. Anyway. And so like, you know, I'm dancing. By, well, by the way, I'm kind of a lunatic dancer, and I was with Vicky, our, from our intern, he's like an awesome Staten Island lunatic dancer. awesome, amazing. And my wife, we're dancing. And they throw on, uh, you know, they throw on, um, uh, smells like teen spirit from Nirvana. And I'm like, wait, what, what? What? At a wedding? I was like, look, if you're going to do that, the only appropriate way to do that is to go complete mosh out headbang slam. So I'm like, all right, you asked for it. You played it. And so I started doing the headbag. Now, it's not the same as when I had long hair back in 19, uh, you know, 90, 91. But, uh... Clearer the dance floor. I mean, everyone's like trying to do the little shoulder shake. It's freaking nirvana. Anyways. Uh, you know, thank God it wasn't 1991 or like some giant football jock would have started doing it and
+
+[21:13] smashing into me and knocked me halfway across the. This is my memory, by the way. Now this is what my life used to be like. Anyhoo, my neck is still sore. So it turns out that when you're 40 going on 41, if you haven't done the
+
+[21:24] headbang in a while, you might want to stay away. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies and only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks. Saving you time, money and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world,
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+[22:01] modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free sample of
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+[22:10] transglutaminates, a.k.a. meat glue to experiment with over the holiday. Simply use the promo code CI 63, placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Meek glue. We talked about it. I like it though. It's good stuff. It is good for the holiday season, the little meat glue. Those guys, they like us, those modern pantry guys, huh? It's good. We met them? No. Never met them in person huh? Anyway. Uh, so what are you doing for the Thanksgiving? I don't know yet. You don't know? I put my order in for the turkey. You put your under the table? No, I didn't. The turkey farmer. Did you guys remember his name, the turkey farmer? Larry Sorell. Larry Sorell, the heritage meet Turkey Farmer, right? I guess like, it's done, done. The turkeys are slaughtered. They dead. So he can come in from, you know, where does he live? Is he in Pennsylvania, where's he? Kansas. Kansas. Same thing. Kansas, Pennsylvania. same thing. Same thing. Anyway, so he's he's here at Roberta's eating, which is awesome because I'm about to go to the heritage meat
+
+[23:12] stand, Essex Street Market. By the way, you can now just any Jokomo who happens to show up in the lower East side of New York and go purchase Heritage Meads at the Essex Street
+
+[23:20] Market, little known fact by people who didn't already know it. And I'm going to go pick up my turkey today. And next week, I'll report back of how delicious. What are you doing? I don't know. You know what? You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking I might, look, I've become lazy in my old age. As soon as you hit 40, you instantly become lazy. Sorry, all you 45 year olds, you're lazy sons of guns. Anyway, I think I'm just going to bone the sucker out, roll it. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? I meant that I'm telling about the turkey. I'm gonna bone it out. What else is there to do? Be thankful for my family. I'm kidding. So I'm going to mistake, which is where my in-laws live. But I'm going to bone out the turkey and probably roll it and then cook it that way. I think that's the easiest way. You know, I just don't have the time this year to do the, you know, the aluminum skeleton and pumping the
+
+[24:03] oil, although it is the best damn turkey I've ever made. Anyway, on 2 questions. Matthew writes in about braise colors. Thanks a lot for answering my questions last week. This week I'm working on a sandwich for my business based around red wine braised beef. I am raising Chuck on the stovetop and red wine and beef broth. After slowly simmering for a few hours. I pull the beef apart and reduce the braise to a glaze. Everything comes out pretty well, except for the color ends up being grayish. Ideally, I want to end up with something the color of red wine or Concorde grape juice. Concorde gravy. Delicious. Mustache's favorite. Any ideas or suggestions would be a great help, thanks, Matthew. Okay, look. Here's the issue. Well, assume, let's let's knock right off the bat. You're not using an aluminum. I mean, not aluminum. You're not using a reactive pan that's going to cause a color problem, right? So typically a aluminum or cop or anything like that. I'm assuming that you're working in stainless or some other form of something that's not going to cause any sort of all coloring based on the metal. bang, done. Uh, I think anytime you're doing a long cook and you're reducing and you have a lot
+
+[25:01] of uh, stuff like beef broth or browns, the colors are never going to be as punchy as you want. Uh, I mean, you say gray. Usually I'm used to going kind of a brownish color. Uh, and then that brown can go somewhat grayish if there's fat that ends up getting emulsified into the braise. So I'd make sure you try and skim the fat after before you, before you reduce it down to a glaze, get the fat off of it. Also, you might, the flavor's going to be different. Like the real depth of flavor, you're going to want that, that, you know, brown, you know, meat stock, but you might move to like a white veal stock, which you can reduce a lot more without getting the huge color impact from all the brown bits.
+
+[25:37] You know, if you don't brown the meat as much. But again, all that stuff's what makes it delicious. So I think it's going to be hard to kind of punch the color. Now you can cheat, but it really ruin, you know, not ruin. It's delicious. changes the flavor by doping up the color with things that have very high colorant
+
+[25:51] values, like jelly, like concord grape jelly, but that's going to add concord or tomato paste, or something of that nature is going to
+
+[25:59] punch, punch the red up. I'm interested in hearing anyone else whether they have any suggestions on this. I mean, I like a braised kind of a sauce, but they always do look kind of
+
+[26:10] gloopy, unless you just create the sauce from scratch instead of having it be part of the
+
+[26:14] braise. You know, like have the braves be the braves. Save that sauce, continue to brazen, and then just make a specific sauce that has a specific color profile, a cassis or whatever, to go with it. What do you think, Steph? Sounds good. She's like, I don't care. I sick. She said, I don't give a crap. I'm sick. Happy Thanksgiving. Okay. Colin writes in. You mentioned on last week's show that tannins and pectins combine in persimmons as they ripen to make them less astringent. Can I add pect into something tannic like black walnut booze, for instance, to reduce the astringency? I tried an LN too. that liquid nitrogen for all you folks out there, freeze last year to dehydrate the tannins at your suggestion, but that did not have a strong effect. Sorry. I'll try pectin, but if you ever tried something similar, thanks, Colin. Okay, look it. Look it. What happens is, um, tan and will complex with
+
+[27:00] pectin in fruit, right, in a bledding situation. Bledding. Let's see, look it up. Anyway. Or listen to last week's show. Uh, but the, um, most effective way to do it, tannins like to buy with proteins a lot. So if you really want to bind the hell out of tannins, you're going to want to treat it with a protein-based wine finding agent. So what are your choices? Uh, already in your fridge, most likely, egg white. So, uh, mix, um, and you can look up the proportions in, uh, you know, in a wine finding on the internets, but it's usually egg white and salt. I forget why the salt's there. I think to, I don't make the proteins act better. I don't know why it's there, frankly. And water, to make it easy to mix in. You stir it into your liquid. And then over the course of like a week or two, the egg white proteins will combine with the tannins into
+
+[27:50] larger, into larger complexes. And when they do that, they'll slowly sink to the bottom and then you can rack the stuff off the top. So that's a classic way to do it. Uh, even more hardcore than uh, egg in terms of its ability to remove tannins, because
+
+[28:05] egg's gonna remove tannins, but not uh, necessarily that much. Gelatin. If you dissolve gelatin, mix a gelatin
+
+[28:12] in the gelatin will complex with the tannin, and then over time, settle out into the bottom, and you can rack it off. If you have a centrifuge, you can do it even easier. So it's typically these, also, milk proteins can do it. If you combine milk proteins, but the problem with milk proteins is, I think, in order to get them to settle out properly, you might have to have a fairly low
+
+[28:30] pH, which I think you won't have in your walnut liqueur. So it's, you know, it's a question. Also, I think the gelatin will work at basically any pH, but typically these things are done at wine pHs. But I would use this sort of this sort of a technique, or move to something like Kaita sandwich you can get at a, um, you know what? Stick with the protein. Tell me how it works. One of those things should work. Does that make sense? Anyway, whatever, whatever. anyway. Okay. Aaron, from the Northern England, it's an English show today. By the way, our good friend, Tony Canoyaro, is engaged from 69 Cobrook Road, engaged to be married. happened a long time ago, but I don't think we've mentioned it on the air. Amazing. Congratulations. Taria from Pano Ricard. Nice. anyway, good people. Okay. Aaron writes in. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. I'm still loving the show. Thanks very much. very inspiring. I like that he's like assuming that we're going to turn to crap. He's like, I'm still loving it. I was expecting it would be crap by now, but I'm still loving it. No, I think a lot of people are responding to. Are you listening? Oh, yeah, right. It's one of these You there? You there? Anyway. I would really like to improve how I present my food. I'm not looking for super fine dining level of presentation, but I would like to incorporate as much as possible
+
+[29:41] of that quality into the food I serve people at home. I am in the north of England and haven't found any appropriate courses anywhere near me so far. Can you recommend any resources online or in print to help me learn all the
+
+[29:52] best thanks very much. Aaron. It's an interesting question, actually. Um, It's a very interesting question. Uh, and it's one, I was thinking about this morning, and I don't have a, I don't have a good answer, so I'm just
+
+[30:03] going to talk about it. We used to teach a plating course at the French culinary, but Nils taught it because Nils is kind of a monster plater,
+
+[30:09] but they, you know, they don't teach it anymore. Plating at home is always, it's difficult because usually you're the only person doing the plating and you have to get all the components together and
+
+[30:21] serve it out so it can be a little more difficult. But if what you're interested in is just I typically at home will serve family style. And then the question is just making the individual dishes look nice. So you have to look at it from a range of a range of ideas. One, are you just talking about what the food looks like in general or are we really talking about plating? If you're just talking about what the food looks like in general, then as you're making choices, you make choices not only based on
+
+[30:47] taste, but based on how something's going to look in the end, right? So you'll choose things, they obviously taste as the primary thing you're going to choose, but you'll think,
+
+[30:56] well, that color is going to go really nice with that. And instinctively, you start making choices about how things like that are going to
+
+[31:02] look, being that, oh, man, that color would look really nice. You know, what flavor would go really nice. It has that color and you could bring like a pop, you know, like real something nice and poppy to it, color wise, right? Or I'm going to use a different kind of a cooking technique because I don't want it to look
+
+[31:17] overreduced or brown or something like this, right? So that's the 1st step. The 2nd step then is actually once you get the colors and the look of the food to be what you want. Now how do you present it? And the best way to do that is to just read, not, I don't have any good, I've read some I'm not going to even recommend them, but the ones I'm sure there's great ones. So I'm not insulting, if it happens to be someone here that's written one, please tell us which one it is. take a look at it. But some of the old plating technique books that I've read. I don't really, 1st of all, they tend to be dated by the time they come
+
+[31:49] out and, you know, they're kind of, they're kind of, I don't know, just, they've never really been inspired by them, you know? What I would do is just go look at a bunch of chef cookbooks that put out restaurant
+
+[32:00] meals and you get an idea for what's possible with plating. So if you're looking to do food at a particular, in a particular style, then find the cookbook of a chef who's
+
+[32:10] respected who does that. Like, if you want, like, kind of, hey, I'm a badass big meat jockey, go get the Pied de Couchon book and, like, you know, he'll show you how to stick a knife through a sandwich or something like that. You know what I mean? Or if you want to do something kind of really like high-end plating and fresh and new, go look
+
+[32:26] at like 11 Madison's all plated out, you know, the new cookbook. But I would look at cookbooks. But I'm going to think more about this and hopefully people will write in and tell me things that they like so that next week I can mention them on the show. Do you have anything? No, no, I think that's a good idea, though. Yeah, but I'm interested in hearing from, you know, this week, you can prove you're listening by writing in with ideas for blading technique,
+
+[32:48] like resources, right? You live in the middle of nowhere, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I mean, other things, like you can practice. like there's certain plating techniques you can learn. Like you can learn to canal something, right? And let's look online for YouTube videos on how to canal. Or you can learn how to drop, you know, oil onto a soup with a with a squeeze bottle. I mean, if you want to do some fancy plain techniques. Learn to do good work with a spoon, like the brush, the schmear, learn to learn to drop things out of squeeze bottles, but that's kind of old school. anyway. Look up, Nastasia is trying to punch me in the face, telling me we have to take our 2nd commercial break. So we'll come right back, call your questions two, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[33:49] He's scared, 'cause I won.
+
+[33:57] Case sound on it all, be scared, 'cause I want. Oh, no, Crocusole.
+
+[34:11] all in a row. Of a mango.
+
+[34:25] A fly just attacked me. Welcome back to cooking issues. So, Nastasia, you're gonna even though you're sick, you're gonna go to the Thanksgiving Day parade this year? No, I'm gonna watch them blow up the balloons tomorrow. I like that. I wish they would explode the balloons. I hate parades. The only thing I like, what? Have your kids gone? No, hell no. No. No, 1st of all, my son, Booker, could you imagine him in that crowd of people waiting for a balloon to pass? the balloons blown up around natural history. That's cool. Yeah, whatever. I've seen it. I seen every parade. I hate parades. Hey, listen, you know what I like? Bagpipes. Wait, you don't like bagpipes now? No, I do. It's just you would, you know? I mean, I would. bagpipes are amazing. It's sad What's sad? sound is sad. It's not sad. it's stirring Look. If you get married. bagpipe. Oh my god. Yes. funeral. No, it's not only for funerals. I want all of Scotland to punch Nastasia in the face the next time you see her. I'm kidding. Don't do that. Not advocating any violence. But I'm saying, yes, funerals, because it's stirring. You're also supposed to play bagpipes when you march into battle and you play the big weddings. I would not want that. Not that. bagpipes are always appropriate. Anytime stirring music is appropriate, the great Highland bagpipes is appropriate. It's an amazing instrument. anyway. I enjoy bagpipes. What do you think? Every parade is a funeral. Why do they have them at parades? I guarantee it. They don't have them here. What? Well, I don't care. I don't like the Thanksgiving Day parade. The heck? Just marching bands. Yeah, marching bands. Bad plans. Yeah. Can we just do the rest of the show with bad pipes in the background? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. We have to put in the greatest rock and roll bagpipe of all time. That's your wedding. That's not really great look. Which is long way to the top if you want to rock and roll. the greatest use of bagpipes in rock and roll, am I right? Yeah. Yes. Okay. Back on back on task. Back on task. Back on cooking issues task. All right. Sorry. Anyway, on record, I do not enjoy a parade except for the bagpipes. Okay. Steve Santana rides in. I was wondering if Dave could go over a few SUV questions relating to duck breast. Should the skin be scored before bagging or just before searing? Should the breast be bagged with butter, or better yet render duck fat if I can find some, or the fat already under the skin be enough? With the same results from the last to salt or not to salt
+
+[37:04] post, apply to duck breast 2, and should the duck breast be chilled after cooking? Uh, and he's asking 40 minutes to 64 Celsius as the time and temperature for cooking before Siri.
+
+[37:15] Okay, I'm just going to go over this. First of all, don't cook the duck breast that high. I would not go, uh, standard, uh, you know, like Long Island pecking
+
+[37:22] style, duck, uh, breasts, 57 degrees Celsius for 45 minutes is sufficient.
+
+[37:30] I wouldn't go above that. If you have a tougher duck breast. Sometimes you can go to 58. I don't recommend cooking duck breasts longer than about an hour because it doesn't happen all the time, but they can start tasting
+
+[37:43] livery and the color can start going gray if they're cooked for too long. So I would not recommend cooking the duck breast too long. Also, I don't bag the duck breast with anything other than the duck breast. Uh, they don't really need it because here's what you're
+
+[37:57] going to, and I don't cut it or do anything beforehand because you're not really rendering out fat at those temperatures.
+
+[38:02] If you're cooking to 50-57, 58, you're not really rendering a lot of fat. So what I would do is bag the duck breast, put it on a table, squash the skin side flat so that later
+
+[38:14] on when you sear it, it will, um, it will be flat against your pan, it's going to sear out properly.
+
+[38:20] Now, I know the good folks at modernist cuisine, you know, young, mirror
+
+[38:24] of old, belay. They, I think, do a pre-seer, a cryosier. They freeze the duck skin, then they they poke it with holes, then they freeze it. Then they then they bag it, then they cook it, then they refreeze it, then they sear it. I typically, I haven't done it side by side. So I don't know what's better. I typically don't sear my duck breast before because what I'm doing when I do my sous vide cooking is a technique I call
+
+[38:45] low temperature or sous vide for insurance purposes. I'm ensuring that the duck breast is cooked throughout to the temperature I want. And then I cool it, and then I sear it off as though I was doing a traditional cook on it.
+
+[38:58] The only difference is, is that now all I'm focusing on is crispy, delicious skin. So I'm not worried about cooking the duck breast because it's already cooked. So all I'm worried about then is rendering the fat and crisping the skin out. Uh, and so that's a, and it's a whole, there's a whole range of techniques like that that I call low temp,
+
+[39:16] you might call it suvedo, though. You're wrong. It's low temp unless it's in a vacuum bag, which this is, for insurance. I do that with roasts. I'll do it with poultry. I'll do it with a lot of things. And what it lets you do is get a lot of traditional taste and texture, but at the same time, ensure that you have the meat cooked
+
+[39:34] properly and that you're only focusing on one problem at a time, getting the skin
+
+[39:38] right, instead of trying to get the skin right and the meat right at the same time. Okay? Now, as regards scoring it, nils, and I have to agree with
+
+[39:48] him here because I did a side by side, detests scoring the skin on a
+
+[39:52] duck because when you score it, where you score it, you tend to overcook the meat because the steam when
+
+[39:58] you're rendering goes up and overcooks the meat at that point. There's Flymageddon, by the way, going on outside. There's something crazy always going on outside at Roberta's Pizzeria. Today is Flymageddon. They're like running around with smashing flies with papers. What? was it last week? I don't remember. And last week it was Indie Jesus. That's every week at Roberta's Pizzeria. So anyways, so where was I? So I would use, here's a technique that modernist cuisine does, which everyone can do, and I think is awesome. Go to your local pet supply store and purchase a dog combing brush,
+
+[40:33] the ones with all the little spikes in it. And instead of scoring the skin on the duck breast, whack it a few times with the
+
+[40:39] dog with the stainless steel dog comb, and that way, you can render out a lot of the fat without overcooking the meat.
+
+[40:48] It's a great technique. I've tried it. I think it's awesome. Do not salt the duck before you cook it. Salt the duck, maybe right before you sear it, and that's the that's the way to go. What do you think? Good. I want to make a shout out to the guys who listen at Blue Hill at Stone
+
+[41:03] Barnes. All right, make a shout out. Hi. Well, that's quite a shout out, Nastasia. You really know how to shout out. Be like, to the guys who listen at Blue Hills Stone Barn. Keep it farming. That's a shout out. anyway. Okay. Uh, Tim Hayes from Eugene Oregon writes in, uh, regard, I'll just read it. Hi, Tim from Eugene, Oregon here. to tell you how great the podcast is and ask you a question. I usually stay on the savory side when cooking, but lately I've been seduced by the sweet recipes from Christina Tozi's
+
+[41:34] Mama Fuku Milk Bar book. Specifically the incredible cookie recipe she has so kindly shared with the world. My favorite cookie of hers is the corn is the corn cookie. I enjoy the corn cookie quite a lot. Do you like the corn cookie? You don't like corn and cookies. You're a low quality person to stash. Although I love you, but you're low quality, you hear me. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Right? I mean, you know what I'm saying. I'm so immune to it. What I mean? What'd you say to me? are you talking about? Like low quality when you call me that? It's like a, it's like a nice love thing. When other people hear you say it, they're like, whoa. Yeah, I know. It's with love folks. I don't want anyone I want anyone to be like, whoa, you just called her a low quality human being. One day we'll be low quality human beings. Exactly, Jack. Wow, well, it depends. Do you hate corn and peanuts? No. Do you hate biscuits? No. All right. All right. Okay, sorry. Specifically, the incredible cookie recipe she is so kindly shared with the world. My question relates to the epic hard bodied 10 minute creaming of butter and sugar that the rest of her cookie recipes require.
+
+[42:37] And by the way, what we're talking about here is Tozi recommends a very long creaming process, 10 minutes where the sugar and the butter are creamed
+
+[42:47] together, and then the eggs are whipped in. And the basic idea is is to generate as much. By the way, if you heard that thwap 10 seconds ago, it was part of Flymageddon going on in
+
+[42:56] Roberta's. So they prolong creaming step, whips a lot of air into the cookie and provides the structure that she likes in her cookie and so she's
+
+[43:06] very, and we work in the milk bar commissary. I can say they cream the hell out of that stuff. Anyway, so my question relates to the epic hard bodied 10 minute creaming of butter and sugar that her recipes require. I see the reasons for this step to aerate the mix, but her peanut butter cookie recipe got me thinking. She mentions that you only need to cream this recipe for about 3 minutes because of the emulsifying properties of the peanut butter. Sure enough, the mix fluffs up much quicker. So two-part question, what about peanut butter makes it such a great emulsifier, and would it be possible to use emulsifying agents to quicken the creaming
+
+[43:38] and other cookie recipes? Now, I guarantee that the way that Cetosy figured this out was, she noticed that her peanut butter stuff was, you know, was getting the amount of air beaten into it much more quickly than other things.
+
+[43:52] Then the question is, is it really the emulsifiers in it that are doing it? And I did some initial research. And it's hard to find. Apparently, look, protein, there is protein and peanuts, and that protein can probably act
+
+[44:08] as somewhat as an emulsifying agent. Then the 2nd question is, well, perhaps there's, what's wrong with you, Nastasia? This guy's hitting the flies, but he's got this cigarette in the other hand. Does that do anything? Great, Stasi, she's crazy. crazy for me. Anyway. So, uh, I looked up, uh, peanut butters, industrial peanut butters. I looked up Jiff and I looked up Skippy. Okay? Now everybody knows, some people know, I should say. If you grind your own peanut butter or you buy natural peanut butter, the peanut oil separates from the peanut
+
+[44:38] solids and has to be whisked back in, right? Peanut butter is basically, you know, solids, kind of emulsified into a into peanut oil. So, Jiff does that, good old Jiff. Jiff does that by adding mono and diglyceride, which is a straight up emulsifier. So if you use JIF, you are adding an emulsifier into your cookie
+
+[45:00] mix, and that will help incorporate air. Right? But if you look at Skippy's label, Skippy doesn't put
+
+[45:08] mono and diglycerides in their regular peanut butter. Instead, they substitute a certain amount of peanut oil for a hydrogenated fat.
+
+[45:15] And then hydrogenated fat, which is solid instead of liquid room temperature, prevents the separation of skippy peanut butter. Okay? So there's 2 basic ways that they can stop the separation of peanut butter, emulsifiers, or with adding a hydrogenated fat. My prediction. Look towards more people adding emulsifiers because less and less people are going to want to add hydrogenated fat because of the bad
+
+[45:38] rat hydrogenated fat. This guy is freaking serious about killing flags, by the way. crazy. It's like, it's like, seriously, it's like it's like, you know, work crimes against flies. He's like going crazy over here. Anyway, but that led me to think. Actually, I think what's going on is that the peanut butter itself is acting as a whipping agent, right?
+
+[45:58] So when you're creaming sugar and butter. The sugar, the particles in the sugar before they dissolve and melt, are acting as basically they're carving holes in the butter as you're whipping and they act as a whipping and aerating agent.
+
+[46:15] And I think the tiny particles in peanut butter are also acting as a whipping agent, which is why you can actually whip peanut
+
+[46:22] butter. If you add a little liquid to it, you can whip it up on its own. So I think it's probably not the emulsifiers that are doing it, but the fact that a peanut butter itself is acting as a whipping issue. I could use a peanut butter cookie right by now. Maybe I'll go to milk bar and steal a peanut butter cookie. Are we going there? We're going to milk bar because they have work work to do, but I'm going to steal a peanut butter cookie. So if anyone there is, you know, be on notice. I going to steal a peanut butter cookie from you. Anyway, I hope all of you have a fantastic Thanksgiving and a delicious, delicious, delicious turkey on your turkey day. Cooking issues.
+
+[47:13] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[47:28] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Into It QuickBooks Bill Pay. You didn't start a business to spend your Sundays chasing invoices and manual data entry, but as you grow, accounts payable starts to feel like a full-time
+
+[0:10] job you never applied for. Bills pile up, approvals get lost in email, and your vendors are constantly asking, where's my check? It's distracting. It's stressful, and it's keeping you from the work that actually moves the needle. Into it QuickBooks bill pay is the exit ramp. QuickBooks Bill Pay automates the busy work that eats your calendar by bringing every bill, every vendor, and every payment into one organized dashboard. Stop chasing details and start seeing the big picture. Know exactly what's due. Who needs to sign off and how it impacts your cash flow before the money leaves your bank. Vendors can even manage their own details, so you stay in control of how and when you pay. Grow with confidence and put your AP on autopilot in QuickBooks. Learn more at quickbooks.com slash bill pay. Again, that's quickbooks.com slash bill pay. Terms apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[1:21] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's
+
+[1:33] Pizzawia in Bushwick, Brooklyn, from approximately 12 to 1245. Here today as usual. Oh, let me should I give the number first? All right. Call in all of your questions. Two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. We'll take any kind of question. 18 you got, whatever you got, we'll take it. anyway. Here in the studio, joined as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Uh, uh, join me for my 2nd my Sunday Thanksgiving, right? Where we cooked Patrick's heritage Wachalote. That, for those of you that don't speak that, that means
+
+[2:06] Babo, turkey, right? So he cooked up a heritage, turkey, eggs, delicious, right? What's the name of the farmer again? Reese? No, you don't. Sorry, I'm slow here. Frank Reese. Frank Reese, yeah. So it was a it was a delicious turkey. I think I didn't cook the, um, the dark meat long enough. here's what I did, folks. So I have to admit, I was going up to Mystic Connecticut, where my in-laws live. And, uh, they'd already bought a turkey by the time I told them I had a turkey. So I was like, you know what? Crap on it. let them cook the turkey, do whatever they want. It was good, by the way. They didn't horribly overcook it. They brined it, thankfully, which even though I love my man, Harold, you know I love my man, Harold McGee. He says not to brine the turkey because it makes the drippings too salty. I disagree. I disagree because I'd rather not have my breast meat be horribly mangled and overcooked, right? Yes. Anyway. bubble. You know what? Also, like traditional oven roasting, it does make a delicious crispy skin, which is hard to emulate using
+
+[3:02] other techniques. I mean, my exoskeleton technique, I was able to get a crispy skin,
+
+[3:06] but, you know, I'm kind of a stickler for such things, but traditional oven and skin is delicious, yeah? Yeah. It's Los Vestos. This morning on the subway on 44th Street. There was a funeral for a police officer. How is this? Do you know what they were playing? What? bagpipes? Oh, all right. So this fallen police officer. Has nothing at all to do with crispy turkey skin has more to do with the bagpipes that we were talking about
+
+[3:34] at the end of last week's program, which, by the way, I never said we're not played at funerals. Nastasia's opinion is that they're exclusively played at funerals because the next time she saw them play was at a funeral, it reinforces in her completely illogical
+
+[3:46] mind, that means that they're only played at funerals. Go to Scotland. Count the score, Nastasia one, Dave Zero. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait a second. You know what else people do the day that they go to a funeral? They pee. Does that mean they owe me pee? For funerals? Listen, you guys got to learn your logic. This is stuff I'm trained in. Dave, go to some weddings in the city. Find the backpacks. Look, police officers and firefighters, when they when they
+
+[4:13] are killed or pass away and they have functioning, yes, they have bagpipes at those funerals. And because you are completely uncultured and don't understand the ways of Scotland, right, you assume
+
+[4:25] that's the only time that it happens. That's all I'm saying. Look, don't get me started. You know, I took bagpipe lessons. Like, you know what? I like how she messes around with backpipes. I took bagpipe lessons. I owned a set of bagpipes. I know longer, you know, I didn't really progress because like you start with a thing called a chanter, and you learn to play on the chanter, which is, you know, soft and
+
+[4:48] reasonable. And then you move up to your 1st set of real pipes. And when I moved up to my 1st set of real pipes, they weren't a very good set of pipes, you
+
+[4:54] can, you know, they were a cheap set of pipes, so they didn't sound, they wouldn't have sounded good even if I was good, which I wasn't. As soon as I start squeezing on the bag and those drones start wailing out, Jen's like,
+
+[5:03] nope, you're done. Jen's my wife. Anyway, uh, I hope she hasn't missed this because she'll get mad at me to tell that story. She always she always gets mad at me because she thinks I tell stories that make her seem like an ogre, but
+
+[5:13] really it's just I'm unreasonable and she's a reasonable person. Really is how it works anyway. So don't talk crap about bagpipes. warning you. I will go off anyway. You know, look, if one of you wants to call in and talk crap about the bagpipes. Go ahead. Let's see where that, let's see where that gets you. Anyway, um, Where was I? Delicious turkey skin. So anyway, so when I got back on Sunday and I was having the 2nd Thanksgiving. I had 2 problems once we had a bunch of vegetarians over, so we had to make a vegetarian stuffing. And of course, in my mom's style stuffing, the prime component is sage sausage.
+
+[5:49] So we had to substitute that up, but I thought it was a passable substitution, right? I have to admit it was a passable substitution. Nastasia ate it and she's not, she's not even folks making her vegan fish. Of course it wasn't vegan because it was full of eggs and all sorts of other great stuff, butter. Anyway, I thought it was pretty good. But I didn't cook the turkey in Thanksgiving fashion, meaning I didn't feel
+
+[6:07] a need to cook it whole. So I broke it into dark meat, light meat, cooked them at 2 different temperatures, in a
+
+[6:13] Ziploc bag, in butter, pulled them out when they were still hot, let the skin dry off so that I could crisp them up, threw them in the
+
+[6:18] oven to crisp off the skin after they cooled down. My oven was acting up on me and went. I had it set at 600 Fahrenheit and it went down to 400 without me noticing because somehow one of the controllers had gotten switched off.
+
+[6:29] So I was kind of irritated. And I then had to pull out a blowtorch to crisp it before I threw it back in for the final crisp being. I dont like blowtorch crisping because it tends not to dry out the skin and make it crackly the right way. It just browns it up a little bit, which I find irritating and also at least torch taste. So I shot the torch through a, um, a nicrome wire screen to act as
+
+[6:48] a kind of a flame arrester and also a stink arrester from arresting the stink that comes out of propane when you shoot it
+
+[6:54] onto uh, uh, turkey skin. But it was pretty good, I thought. I could have taken the dark meat about a degree high or something like that. I think. I think I could have done it about a degree higher. But the breast meat was delicious. Uh, duck meat. I mean, the dark meat tasted good at just what, you know, whatever. What do you eat on Thanksgiving proper nastasia? Some overcooked turkey at some friend of a friend's house. Wow, friend of a friend overcooked turkey. Is there anything worse than an overcooked turkey? This is why people think that turkey is bad because they eat only overcooked turkey. And Turkey, everyone's like, man, I just, I eat it because it's tradition. No, no, turkey is delicious if you don't overcook it. Turkey is delicious, delicious. thing. Okay, today's show, sponsored by modernist pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that makes sense for the home cook or enthusiast. So who's an enthusiast? It's not a home cook, by the way. See, after you read this a bunch, you start thinking about it. When you're just reading it, you're not thinking, but then when you read it a bunch of times, you're like, home cook or enthusiast? Like they're at home, but they're not enthusiastic and they're using it anyway? Anyway, whatever. And most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. By the way, we verified that, as we said before, New Zealand, I think, right? Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries Nzorbit tapioca maltodextrin, which allows you to transform fat-based products like olive oil or peanut butter into a powder or
+
+[8:35] paste, actually. I mean, peanut butter is already a paste, but you can turn olive oil into a paste. This powder retains the flavor of the original product and dissolves when placed on your tongue delivering it to your taste buds. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $35 or more before next week's show will get a free package of Enzorba to experiment with over the holidays. Holidays. I guess, yeah, we got some more holidays. Simply use the promo code, CI 64, and placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com. Today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Tapico and Walter Dextrin, uh, and Zorbit Brand, Tapioca Malta Dextrin is an interesting thing. So basically, there's like a whole, you know, years of cooks who just say, eh, I need some tapioca
+
+[9:15] malto decks, man. And, you know, tap I'm like, what are you going to do with it? And they're like, I'm going to make the powder. like, don't ask for tapioca maltodexrin. You need Enzorbit from national starch, which is very specific tapioca maltodextrin, which is tapioca maltodextrin is you take tapioca
+
+[9:29] starch and you break it down into smaller pieces. Eventually you get down to a place where the starch molecules are broken down to something called
+
+[9:35] maltodexerans, and zorbit is derived from tapioca, but is a
+
+[9:40] very, its main purpose in life is not this, the turning oils into powders, but it's a bulking agent.
+
+[9:46] It's extremely light. Like, uh, you know, the, a pound of endsorbit is bigger than, you know, a pillowcase. It's huge, right? It's really lightweight stuff So it's a bulking agent. That's what it really does. Starches are interesting because they're a helix, right? A native starch molecule for it's been cooked out as a helix, and the outside of the helix is water loving, and the inside of
+
+[10:07] the heel, so it'll, you know, water is fine with it. And the inside is oil loving, right? Water hating. And so what happens is, is you mix and sorbit with a fat or an oil. That oil gets complex inside the starch, right inside the helix, but because it's not gloming on the outside, it retains a lot of its bulk density and it turns out to be a powder.
+
+[10:28] Then as soon as you apply water in the form of your
+
+[10:32] mouth, or if you try to make a powder out of something with water in it, which doesn't work, ding, ding, ding, ding,
+
+[10:38] right? It immediately dissolves and turns back into almost nothing. So you take a very small amount of maltodextrine, which is relatively tasteless. And you make a powder out of an oil and then it dissolves into the under mouth. That's how it works. But please don't uh, try to make a powder out of an oil by just saying tapioca maltodextrin because odds
+
+[10:56] are it won't work. There's many, many, many, many tapioca maltodextrins in the world, and most of them won't do that, right? Mm-hmm. Nastasia's like, I really don't care. I don't care. That's what she's saying or so. I really, I just I just don't care. At least that's what I'm reading out of this, guys. All right. Now, because I'm stupid, I didn't have my, um, I didn't have my thing open. So I'm going to have to flail around here for a minute while I search for, Oh, there it is. Well, I searched for my questions for the day. And, you know, I wouldn't have to search for my questions for the day, people, if you were to call in some questions, right? Just saying, okay, that's awesome. That's awesome. Okay. So, starting out. Oh, there's a caller? Hey, caller, you're on the air. Oh, great. Thank you. Um, I have a quick question about getting kind of like a crust on a sous
+
+[11:50] vide, uh, veal rack. Okay. So I wanted to have like a herb crust or some kind of other crust after it's finished
+
+[11:58] cooking. How should I try to do that? Okay. So there's a couple of things. Are you are you going to use actual sous vide in a vacuum bag or are you going to use low temp like in a Ziploc or something like that? Um, I was going to show you in a vacuum bag. Okay. You're going to have to do it like a test or see what you feel. If you actually put the herb crust on beforehand, you're
+
+[12:20] going to get quite a bit of the penetration of the herb flavor into the meat from the procedure itself,
+
+[12:26] right? So the question you're going to have to ask yourself is, um, you know, do you want that much herb into the surface of the
+
+[12:35] meat? And if you do, fine. Put it on beforehand. If you don't, don't, okay? The 2nd thing is how long are you going to cook it? Um, in the bag? Yeah. Um, probably about 3 hours at like 56, 57. Are you going to serve it? Yeah, veal, yeah. Yeah, 56, yeah. Are you going to serve it the same day? Um, yeah. Okay. So what I would do is, is as soon as you pull the meat out of the circulator, right, I would cut the bag open, put the thing on a rack and start the outside to dry off a little bit. You know what I mean? And let it let it dry off a little bit and maybe even pat talot pat it, maybe even take a hair dryer, dry off the outside to get some of the like the tacky moisture off the outside, then rebrush with oil or whatever you
+
+[13:24] got, right? Uh, and and then uh, you know, me and like, I would deep fry it. That's me. Because nothing's like, let me tell you, I can't tell you. I have done bunches of racks of lamb, goat, whatever,
+
+[13:36] and, uh, you throw that sucker in the deep fryer after it comes out of the bag, if you let it dry off properly, and
+
+[13:43] it's, it's good business because it just puts an instant crust all the way around everything. There's no kind of, there's no problems with it at all. Do you know what I mean? It's just, it's a good technique. So if you can deep fry it, deep fry it. I don't have a deep fire, but I do have range or I'd probably talk a duction burner that I could use for... How many portions are you making? Uh 80. Ooh, yeah. You're going to have a problem because the problem is if you're doing 80 portions. Um, you're going to, um, if you're doing 80 portions, you're going to have an issue with, um, the oil getting really crappy, if it's on a range, because it's just going to keep going up and down, up and
+
+[14:23] down, and up and down, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I could set up like 2 or 3 hotel pans. Yeah. I mean, is it a good oven or like a really hot oven? Probably, yeah, I can, I can probably get pretty good boiler if I'm in the boiler. I mean, in that case, I might use a different thing from what I just said. I might leave them in the bag, let them cool down. Uh, pull them out, dry them really thoroughly, then maybe like hair dry, then put them on racks, uh, like over the top of a roaster, uh, and then just throw them into a,
+
+[14:57] like let them basically cool down, way down. You know what I mean? Throw them into a screaming oven. But I don't like, I don't, you know, the problem is if they're too down in a pan or if they're like sitting in a butt with a bunch of potatoes, you get a bunch of
+
+[15:09] blonde spots around where they are. So, you know, put it on a rack to keep it up so that the air can get all around them in a screaming hot
+
+[15:15] oven. And then all you're doing is looking for a nice crust formation on it. And then you can pull it and you won't have radically overcooked the inside. And some of your people might like it even more because it's
+
+[15:27] going to have more of a traditional texture on the outside. It's going to have more of that like overcooked zone. So, you know, in general, I call that technique sous vide for insurance, and by that, I mean, you've ensured that the center of the meat is cooked properly. And then
+
+[15:40] you just focused on crust formation, and as soon as the thing is brown on the outside and crusty, you pull it, and the inside's going to be good. Great. Should I pre-seer it before I put it in the bag? I will. I mean, I almost always do. I don't know, uh, because I think it's going to speed up crust formation afterwards. But, you know, I've run some tests. We run tests every time I teach a SUV class, and typically the crust formation is marginally better in the one that's seared before and after,
+
+[16:11] but, I mean, don't salt it beforehand before you cook it. You know what I mean? Um, because that, you know, uh, that's gonna, um, make it kind of cured. I think the searing beforehand. Um, I like it, but I mean, it's a matter of personal, personal taste. I haven't done. I know that it does speed the browning on the 2nd seer, but I don't know by how much. Do you know what I mean? Yep. Um, Speaking of salty. I was thinking about maybe trying to phosphate brine with it. Would that be a horrible idea or? Uh, I mean, the thing is,
+
+[16:46] is, is it's gonna, it'll hold more water that way, but you, you're gonna go sous vide, so you're not
+
+[16:50] gonna overcook it. You have no reason to inject more water into it. Okay. And it's going to firm up the meat as well as, it's going to firm it as well
+
+[16:58] as, uh, increase water. So since you're going through the trouble of sous vide it, I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't phosphate it up. Okay. Great. Well, that was really helpful. Hey, good luck. know how it goes. All right, thank you. Bye. Okay, uh, Teddy uh, Teddy DeVico writes in, and his uh, his blogspot.blog is teen teen chef Teddy. But he's been running in for a couple years. I wonder whether he's still a teenager. He has to change his, he has to change his blog then. Anyway. Hey, David Nastasia. Dont ask Estasia. She doesn't care about your problems, Teddy. Just me. Just kidding. No you're not. Were you saying you don't care about his problems? Is that what you're saying? Okay, all right. I need help making sweet potato fries. No matter what I do, blanch fry, fry, or just fry, fry. The fries get too much color before they get crispy. I know this happens because sweet potatoes, high sugar, and moisture content, but I cannot figure out how to get around this predicament. Maybe a soak and acidulated solution, uh, first, then roast, then fry, fry technique would work. What are your thoughts? Thanks for the help. Well, it's a true story, Teddy. It's sweet potato fries. They get too much color to them, right? So, there are a number of things that are done, uh, basically because of a thing called
+
+[18:12] reducing, reducing sugars in there, that even more than the regular sugar, which causes browning, there reducing sugars in
+
+[18:17] it, cause browning. Um, you know, which is i.e. not sucrose, but the, you know, invert in it. So, there's been a couple of studies based on trying to get the sugar, total sugar content of
+
+[18:28] the, at least of the surface of the potatoes down somewhat. And there's a study that was done where potatoes were soaked by themselves, you know, just in water versus in salt versus in, um, in, uh, my brain. Ascorbic acid, which is, I think, what you're thinking about to stop the browning from taking
+
+[18:48] place enzymatic browning from the... Whoa. Something just flew into my mouth. Ouch. Um, right? versus citric acid versus acetic acid vinegar. Interestingly, the most sugar was leached out of the potatoes by soaking them in a dilute. Excuse me. That bug really did me wrong. And that flew right in my mouth by soaking in dilute vinegar. Um, right? So here's what I would do. Then a 2nd way to get the sugars out is by blanching. So I would soak these suckers, these potatoes is what I mean. In a vinegar solution after they've been cut for, you know, a weak vinegar solution for a couple of hours. I would throw salt in too, but just because salt is delicious. And it also helps with color problems in French fries, but I don't know why
+
+[19:37] or how. Then I would pull them out of that. Then, uh, actually, you know what? You might not want to put the salt because it might reduce the amount of sugars that are pulled out. Yeah, interesting question. Don't know have to look at it. Then I would blanch them in water, and that's going to leach out even more sugar. Uh, and then uh, I would go through the, um, 2 step frying process. One at a lower temperature to do your cook through and to form the crust, pull it out, let it cool down. Bugs in my throat. And then after that, I would do the final Friday, crisp it up. But you do have a tough road to hoe. I was looking this up, actually. And there's an interesting problem where someone was making potato chips and they did something completely counterintuitive. Uh, they were trying to minimize uh, oil uh, into the potato chip, which is a horrible idea because oil. delicious in a potato chip, necessary and delicious. But they check this out. They took the potato after they they had blanched it and dried it. You know, just dried it like on an oven or dehydrator. And they threw it into a sugar solution. sugar solution, strong, like 23% sugar by weight. And, uh, 2 sec for 2 seconds, and then immediately they let it drain for 3 seconds and immediately fried it. And they said that it was good. They said that it actually, um, they said it absorbed less oil, which I don't know why I'm interested in that. But the fact that it didn't brown appreciably or didn't scorch in the
+
+[21:06] fryer when they were making potato chips was very interesting to me. The other way, by the way, and I doubt you have access to this because very few people do, to decrease the colors to decrease the frying temperature of the oil. But the only way to do that is to, what? He's 15, Teddy. Was or is? And he's a Taurus. What does that mean? When is Taurus? April. It's like me and your wife. Well, my wife, I think, changed because they changed all the zodiac. I did not change. I am still Aries. Anyway, Aries. So, um, okay. So, uh, as I was saying before, I was interrupted by this astrological uh, thing,
+
+[21:44] the uh, for Teddy. All right, all right. Um, so vacuum frying is the other way to go. So you can reduce the temperature at which you can set the oil by reducing the pressure, thereby allowing water to boil out because water boiling out of their product is what stops the oil from penetrating,
+
+[22:01] right? And things don't get crispy until the water is left, right? So you can reduce the temperature at which that happens by putting everything under a vacuum. The problem with that is, is you need some hardcore equipment. And the other problem with it is, is that what typically what happens is, is you fry the thing under a vacuum, you then
+
+[22:20] let the air back in, and whammo, all the oil is injected into the porous section of the fries, and so you get really greasy, soggy fries. So this happens with potato chips, although it's not a big deal of potato chips, but happens in french fries all the time. You're worried about french fries, which is why vacuum frying can be difficult other than the fact that it's very hard to do.
+
+[22:39] Like the morons that do vacuum. excuse me, I didn't mean that. What's the word for moron that's friendly? nincompoop. The nincom poops that make kind of the consumer level vacuum frying situation didn't put a cold trap in between the fryer and the vacuum pump.
+
+[22:54] So there's no possible way on God's earth that it can actually work as a vacuum fryer because it can't possibly recondense the liquid that it spews off. So the only way around there is either use a cold trap or to use an aspirator pump that can reduce the pressure, even when there's water vapor coming out of it all the time. Problem with an aspirator pump is, is that if you make a lot of water vapor like you would when you're frying. Think of the steam that comes out of a fryer. You're, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna, it's gonna start sucking wind and it's gonna get up to atmosphere pretty quickly. Anyway. But here's here's my question, Nastasia. This is to you, since you're the only one that's here, even if, you know, only in body. Uh, uh, why don't they do this? Why don't they, towards the end of the frying time, ramp the temperature
+
+[23:43] up, and at the same time, release the vacuum slowly so that there's always water boiling out of it until they reach atmospheric, then they should be able to get most of the benefit of vacuum
+
+[23:52] frying. Most of the frying will take place at a lower temperature, right? But, uh, you know, at the end, when they're pulling it out of the oil, it's an atmospheric. And so it's not going to get that injection. What do you think? Sounds good, right? No one in the literature has tried something like that. I wonder whether there's a technical problem that makes it impossible. Anyway, apparently Nastasias just slapped her watch, which means that we are going to our 1st commercial break. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128 718-4972128 Cooking is used.
+
+[24:51] I can think of younger days. When living for my life. Was, everything, man could want to do. I could never
+
+[25:15] see too much.
+
+[25:22] I was never told How
+
+[25:28] about the sorrow?
+
+[25:32] And Can you make a broken
+
+[25:43] heart? How can you stop the rain? Oh, Al Green, welcome back to cooking issues. So, the reason we played that song from Al Green is one of the questions I got anonymous was, Dave, what is a cure for a broken heart? And I thought that the Reverend Al Green, although he provides actually no solutions. If you actually listen to the song, he provides no solutions. But maybe they didn't finish the sentence and it's like a broken... He's like, how can you mend a broken heart? And the related question, how can a loser ever win? Right? These are kind of related questions that Al Green ask. I'm just saying that their question. Maybe they were asking how to put together a broken heart of an animal that they
+
+[26:33] were. Well, that's what I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to assume, look, I'm not an expert in mending broken hearts, but I am an expert in cooking hearts.
+
+[26:39] So I think I'll shift it to the related question of Dave, how do you cook? How do you cook hearts? Or why do you cook arts? What do you mean weak? First of all, the heart is an extremely underappreciated culinary... I had amazing heart at myelino. you have it that day? No, what kind of heart? Pig heart. Yeah, pig heart is good. With peppers and onions. Peppers and onions. Peppers. Peppers. Sausage and pep and hots. Anyway, so it was good? So good. How did they make it? every single day, I don't know. And was it, was it, was it all moist or was there some crunchy? Almost, yeah. So that's a, you know, good way to cook. Hearts are delicious because they're, and for all you freaks who don't like fat, you're probably not listening to my show. But if you are, uh, you know, uh, very, very lean and very kind of like, it's got that really that kind of bloody taste, but without being kind of so bloody, the way that like sometime, I like blood sausage, but some people don't like it because of the extreme
+
+[27:35] bloody, bloody flavor of it. You know what I'm talking about? You know what my personal favorite heart is? Chicken hots. I love them. Chicken hearts. You know, they're so delicious. And yet, like, chicken hearted means like crappy. Like, why would you why would you? I mean they're so delicious. Chicken hearts. You like chicken hearts? I don't know I've had it. Oh my god. Do they taste like duck heart? The only heart I've had. Duck heart's delicious, right? Yeah, chicken heart is like slightly smaller than a duck heart, which means, I don't know,
+
+[28:03] they're slightly smaller. You can eat more of them. Look, I love duck hearts, but I grew up eating chicken hearts. And my favorite way is to, is to see, you know, a giant skewer full of chicken hearts. you know, think of, if I can get a skewer of chicken hearts, that means there's that many fools out there not eating the hearts of their
+
+[28:22] chicken, that they're eating all of those breasts and legs and not eating the heart. Um, Anyway, I just like it simply like roasted and then, uh, you know, with like some chimichurri sauce or something. Stuff's just so good, chicken hearts. Anyway, you know what? We haven't done a lot of experiment with low temp hearts. I mean, I've done it a couple times at home, but not enough to report. hearts. Anyway, can't mend them, can cook them. Uh, you know, but whoever's out there with a broken heart, time heals all wounds, mainly because you die. at the end. So, you know. In other words, like that's what makes it tautologically true. Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's always true. It can't be any other because we all have a finite existence. So it's always over at some point. Oh, heavy, heavy subjects here. Wait, can you just comment on Indie Jesus today? I'm not, what, the show is not the indie Jesus shit. We're talking about the waiter here who is still looking like Jesus came up and someone must have told him. I know he's not a listener. Someone told them that we did it because he gave Nastasia the stink eye, but most people give Nastasia the stink
+
+[29:25] eye because she throws off the I hate you vibe. He gives most people this thing. Oh, really? So how the heck is he Jesus-like? If he throws a stink eye. Jesus doesn't throw a stink eye. He needs to work on that. It ruins the look. Anyway. Okay. Uh, follow-up from Aaron. Hi, Nastasia and Dave. called in last week. When I said still loving the show, I didn't mean to say I thought the show would turn to crap. I was just saying. You answered a question of mine before with Harold McGee at that time. I was blown away that I was able to get expert advice so easily, mainly for McGee, I assume, if he means his expert advice. Uh, and, uh, so anyway, so, uh, the question that was asked last week, uh, I think last week or week before was on plating.
+
+[30:07] And by the way, thanks for nothing for all you people giving advice to it, you know, for plating, because we got 0 responses on that, right? Anyway, the local his local library is pretty well stocked with cookbooks, so he can get ideas there, and he liked the response regarding thinking about the visual aspects slightly earlier during the preparation of the food. I think the 1st time I think of the visual aspect is I put food on the plate. So it definitely should shift to earlier. I will definitely look at learning specific techniques such as canelling. And ultimately, Aaron Hope's, the standard way to get really good plating is a turnout, 100s of plates of food under the guidance of a chef who has the expertise. Yeah, but it requires you work in a professional kitchen to do that, which is kind of a pain in the pain in the
+
+[30:44] patoot. Right? I can stay patoon on this, right? Yeah. Anyway. Uh, thanks for the follow-up, Aaron. Okay, here's one for you. Howdy Dave and Anastasia. My 11 year old daughter, Sarah Beth, loves your podcast. I didn't realize we were a family show. like that. Now we have to watch what we say. Well, me and you. You're the only one that's dropped curses on this station. You talked about vaginal... listen to yourself. Listen to yourself. First of all, I was talking about Lysol, which was an historical reference, and not anything to do with anything. And you just pulled it out apropos of nothing. Jack, you know, can go over the thing, but I believe Nastasia is the only one that's ever cursed on this program. I've cursed. Oh, all right. Well, I haven't, which is strange. And Chris Young has too. He cursed? Really? Yes. Oh, you potty mouth people. My 11-year-old granddaughter, uh, granddaughter. My 11 year old daughter, Sarah Bett, loves your podcast. She wants to be a chef and go to culinary school someday. We listen to you all on the way to swim practicing back. Nice, swim practice. I wish I knew how to swim. You know how to swim. No, I don't. Then the more I try to swim. It's like, it's like, uh, you'd think, because I'm not exactly the leanest guy in the world. You'd think that I would float like, like, like, easily, but the more I try and tread water, I somehow corkscrew myself
+
+[31:58] into into the water and actually, the more I try to tread the fast pricing. I mean, if you throw me overboard, I, you know, I can, I won't die right away, but, you know, I wouldn't call myself a swimmer. Anyway, my wife makes fun of me about it constantly. Anyhow, Sarah Beth is doing her science fair. Now you swallowed the bug. No, I'm just sick. Thanks. Thanks for coughing on me with the sickness. She's doing her science fair project called make mine medium rare. Heat conduction and steak. It's all about determining cooking time for beef steaks to get to medium rare, medium and well done for various thicknesses of steaks. Now, listen, you put numbers here, which are the normal numbers for rareness, i.e. medium rare is 145 degrees, medium 155, and well done 170. Let me just say right off the bat, these numbers are like crazy wrong, crazy high. For me, medium rare is not a... 145. Wait. I can't do my I can't do my math in my head anymore. crazy. 57 is 135. So for me, medium rare is more like 135 Fahrenheit in that range. And all of the temperatures that people register are typically above it. I don't know why, but if you served me 145 degree steak, medium rare, I'd be like, nah, not so much medium, right? Okay. We are trying to find out what the relationship is between thickness of steaks and the cooking time to hit those temperatures, all other things,
+
+[33:28] hell constant. We will be using 3 boneless cuts of meat. One inch, one. 5 inches and 2 inches thick. The bibliography, reference for the experiment is from Harold McGee's, The Curious Cook, pages 33 through 34. Excellent book, out of print, unfortunately. I keep telling them to bring it back or give, you know, put it on the web or some other kind of crud. So here's our question. We are trying to decide the best way to cook the steaks to keep the only variable in the experiment, the thickness of the steaks. There are 2 suggestive ways to cook the meat, boiling them in water or cooking them in a 300 degree oven, which would be the best method to use to control the temperature that the meat is cooked
+
+[34:00] in to keep exactly the same for all 3 cuts of meat. We don't have sous vide equipment or anything. We do have a gas range, convection electric oven, and pots to boiling, and a 6th grade science fair budget. Thank you for the great podcast. Okay, so 6th grade. So here's here okay, here's the issue. Couple issues. Let's go into it. One, um, the relationship between thickness and to really get the relationship between thickness and how long it's
+
+[34:25] going to take to get to a particular temperature when you're cooking at a particular temperature, uh,
+
+[34:30] involves uh, doing some differential equations, which is, you know, hey, you know, when I was growing up, that was well beyond what they taught a 6th
+
+[34:37] grader. Who knows what they teach a 6th grader nowadays. Anyway, you need to know some differential equations for that to actually calculate it. Um, and then it's done, uh, basically, you know, on a computer that just does the iterations and does it and find solutions for it. Um, But roughly, and the shape of the meat that you use radically changes
+
+[34:58] uh, the amount of time it takes to uh, for something to get up to temperature. So most things are modeled as either one of 3 things or something in between. And those 3 things are flat slab, which is like a steak, right? Or a cylinder, which is like when I, when you make like a roulade or a sphere, which, you know, does a sphere, right? Now, luckily for you, right? If, well, I should say, luckily for you, I don't know if you have an iPad. If you have an iPad or an iPod, right? Uh, there's someone that wrote a, uh, there's someone who wrote an
+
+[35:33] application uh, called Sous vide Dash. Now it's 5 bucks, all right? And I have you know, this is how much I love the listeners here. I spent my own 5 bucks and I bought the application to look at it, right? And Nastasia, you know, getting $5 out of me is like squeezing water out of a rock. You know what I mean? And even Moses had trouble with that. You know, Moses, right? the Moses, right? The 1st time, God's like, strike the rock, and because the Israelites were thirsty, right? We should I do this in like Jersey, Jersey Bible? in a minute. So he strikes the rock. And then later on, that, like, you know, years and years, years, years later, the Israelites are thirsty again, they've been wandering around for 40 years, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[36:14] God's like, hey, Moses, go to the rock, talk to the rock, and water's going to come out of the rock. So Moses walks up. He's like, hey, last time I had to hit the freaking rock to get the water out. I had to hit it to get the water out. I'm going to hit it again. Hits the rock. God's like, oh. Oh, hitting the rock. I said, talk to the rock. And so, uh, you know, Moses is like, hey, you know, I thought, you know, if I'm going to talk to it, I might as well punch you, hit it with a stick. It's going to be better. It's like, hey, Moses, don't think. I said, talk to the rock. And that's the reason he didn't get to lead the Israelites into the promised land. How messed up is that? I like how he covered Jesus and Moses on this show. Hey, hey, where do you call opportunity? Old and New Testament. Well, bring it. That's from Dave Arnold's Jersey Bible. Uh, so the, uh, uh, uh, stupid. Okay, so, um, but you can download, uh, for 5 bucks. You can download the sous vide dash, and what it does is it actually plots on a graph, you put the type of meat you're using, and the reason
+
+[37:21] the type of meat that you use is important is because different fat levels, different meats have basically different specific heats,
+
+[37:28] how like how hard it is to heat them up to a different temperature, and also probably different rates of thermal conduction through them based on fat and all these other things.
+
+[37:36] So you want to, you want, you know, to enter the meat, right? Then you can enter the shape of it, uh, which is, uh, you know, usually like some form of a flat slab or a, or a cylinder or a sphere. Uh, and then, and the other cool thing is this program can customize all this stuff. So there's there's a, there's a, a coefficient that's basically a shape coefficient that that changes the equations based on
+
+[37:59] uh, what the shape of the thing is and uh, a pure flat plane is uh, is uh, the coefficient is 0 for a, you know, pure cylinder, infinitely long cylinder, coefficient one. And for a sphere coefficient is two. But, uh, in reality, right, the equations really only modeled for these kind of pure things, but in reality, what they do is, is they're like, well, an egg, it's not quite as, you know, it's not quite a
+
+[38:24] sphere. It's more like, you know, a sill and sphere. And so they're like instead of it being a two, right? It's got a coefficient of one. eight. But the cool thing about this program is it allows you to dork
+
+[38:34] with, if you go into the expert level, you can dork around with the
+
+[38:39] coefficients, and you can see how changing that coefficient changes the rate at which things
+
+[38:43] heat. But not to spoil it for you or anything. But the, um, if you double the size of a flat slabs we're talking now. infinite flat slabs, big steak. If you double the thickness, the amount of time it takes to get it to temperature will be roughly 4 times greater. Every time you double it, it goes up by a factor of four, because it goes by the square. they're asking how they should cook it. I'm going to get to that. I'm being thorough. Uh, geez. So, uh, here's the other here's the other bad news about it, though. is that in terms of the way the meat looks, and when I say that, the way that the
+
+[39:19] myoglobe and the proteins in it are going to get denatured, which is what provides a lot of the color in the meat, the way it gets denatured is radically dependent on how long it takes to cook the product.
+
+[39:29] So I would run a couple of different tests. Ovens aren't so good because the size of the piece of meat in it, not just the thickness, but the size
+
+[39:38] of how much moisture is coming off is going to affect the temperature. How quick the surface can dry out because you're in a dry oven. I mean, it's just the oven's kind of inaccurate. Boiling is unfortunately so kind of hardcore. I mean, you can do it, right? I would recommend getting this application to dork around with the different factors to kind of look at them. Um, but then I would, I would go boiling water. Uh, you know, if you want to try some lower temp stuff just as a test, you can do what I've said before, which is you can run uh, uh, hot water out of your tap, which is, you know, depends on your tap, might be hot enough to cook a steak, not, you're probably not going to be up to well done.
+
+[40:17] But, um, you can do the other thing you can do is get a cooler and uh, do some uh, test that way. But the only way to do a real scientific experiment where everything is kept constant, is to have something in a rolling boil. And, you know, if you're going to use boiling water, that is, a rolling boil. And what that means is, is you're not going to want to, uh, put a big piece of meat in, because if you put a big piece of meat in, you're going to, um, If you put a big piece of meat in, you're going
+
+[40:48] to, uh, drop the temperature of the water locally to the meat. The other problem you're going to have is you're going to want to try to keep the meat so that it's even thickness all the way around, which is going to be difficult for you
+
+[40:58] because it's just going to be difficult because the meat's going to be moving around in the water. So, anyway, it's going to be extremely hard for you to do anything else, like bolt it between 2 plates
+
+[41:08] with, you know, thumb screws so you can get the thickness exactly the way you want. I mean, you could do that. I've done it. It's dumb. I've done it. You know what I mean? But it is a pain in the butt. Uh, you're gonna want to try to keep the thickness as accurate as possible because it is gonna make a big, uh, a big difference. Or they're in the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area, they can borrow my circulator. I hear that? That's a good offer. But here's the other things you're going to have to deal with is the, how are you going to measure the temperature on the inside? Are you just going to do it by visual inspection, right? Visual inspection? Meh, meh, meh. You know what I mean? But on the other hand, temperature? Nah, you know what I mean? It's not so bueno. You know what I mean? Now, assuming that you're going to be into this stuff. You can get digital thermometers now pretty cheap. An easy way to do it is to get like a multimeter that has a thermocouple thing and then you can get very fine thermocouples. There down to like, I think you can get like a thermocouple for like 60 bucks and you can get a multimeter that'll read it on Amazon for like, or even just a thermometer for another like 30 or 40. So, I mean, that's 100 bucks. I don't know whether you want to go that far, but your average instant read thermometer, it has a bunch of problems. It's too big. It's not very fast. And also, it has a high enough thermal mass in itself to drop the temperature that you're reading.
+
+[42:25] So it can be problematic. Am I being helpful at all? You're like, not really. You're not really helping hurdle on our project. I gave her the name of the program to look at. Yeah. Nostache it.
+
+[42:39] Yeah, all right. All right. All right. Well, listen. If you have more questions, come back. There's nothing I love better than a science fair. I used to, like, I don't know whether you could probably guess this. I add some butt kicking science fair stuff. My dad is a double E, electrical engineer, and he used to help me out on my science fair
+
+[42:54] projects, and one time he helped me calculate, um, uh, like a bunch of a mirror array to get them all focused on the same and he was showing me how
+
+[43:03] parabo is working and all that. And so we built a big mirror array that focused 100 mirrors. I found this mirror shop that gave me stuff that for almost nothing. I was like, man, they don't need to be high quality. I'm a little kid and I don't have any money. so like, yeah, take these meas. They're almost free. And I glued the mirrors like, and then we were like, you know, lighting stuff on fire. So some other kid was coming with like with their little, with their little parabolic reflect their hot dog oven, and I walk in with like, you know, a 4 foot by 4 foot array of a 100 mirrors,
+
+[43:32] uh, like 4 by 4 inch mirrors, uh, and with instantly light paper on
+
+[43:36] fire. stuff was awesome. Anyway, I love a science fair. So if you have any questions, please write back and we'll address them. Yes. sort of, yeah. Sort of. What is it that you want me to say that I didn't say? Nothing, just write back and let us know how deep it is. Yeah, jeez. And look, I'm not endorsing the program. In fact, it has some issues. Like, for instance, the program, CV dash, when you look at it. Like if I change it from chicken to beef, it changes all my other settings. I was like, listen, I put the other settings where I want them. Why would you change it just because I changed it from chicken to beef? To be dash. All right. Another good place to look for that. If you can do the differential equations for her, or like I say, if she's incredibly precocious, Douglas Baldwin has
+
+[44:18] an explanation of how the equations work on his website about SUV. Okay. Hey, Dave. Nice. is Ryan Santos. What's the best way to cook a goose sous vide? Looking to cook the legs to a comfit like doneness. Imagine 2 different times in tents, but not sure what those are. Okay, so yeah, with the goose, I break it apart. I'd, uh, you know what you could do, actually. I don't know if this would work or not, but I wonder whether you could roast the goose so that it looks awesome and then just not serve the legs, cut the legs off and then cut feed them separately. I think that would work? don't know. I would cook goose like I cook a duck, which means 57 degrees is my
+
+[44:58] go to, and if it's a little tough, not for no, the breasts I'm talking. Once you remove the breast, cook them at 57 for no longer than an hour,
+
+[45:07] uh, and, you know, if they're a little tough, you can do like 58. Let them cool down. Hit with the dog brush a la modernist cuisine, and then sear off the goose to render out some of the fat, make it crispy and delicious.
+
+[45:20] I would confit the legs in vacuum. I would salt them overnight, and salt and herb them overnight. you know, get rid of the excess salt, throw them in a bag with their own fat, you know, just with what they are, uh, and cook it at regular simmering temperatures, like
+
+[45:37] 85. And for a couple of hours, you know, until the bone feels free in
+
+[45:41] the uh, in the thing and you'll know it's done, let them cool down in their own fat. They're ready to go, pull them up, crisp them up, delicious. Yeah. All right. Let's go to our 2nd commercial break.
+
+[46:03] I'm so in love with you. Whatever you want to do. You're all right when
+
+[46:19] you... You make me feel so brand new. Want to spend my life with you? Me same thing, baby. Since we've been together Oh, loving you forever. Is of what I knew Let
+
+[47:02] me Be the one you come up into. And welcome back to cooking issues. Uh, my schedule's totally thrown off today because uh, we don't have a clock in the studio. Nice. Anyway, Todd W. Oh, let me get the 2nd question from uh, uh, 2nd question from Ryan. Secondly, I want to replicate Wiley. That's Wiley Dufray, my brother-in-law's aerated foie gras recipe. I have a food saver and a vacuum box thing, but no chamber vac. I'm curious if I aerate the foie base and a whipper, and then in the vacuum box, if that would help get the aeration going. I've had success doing this with ice cream base to aerate the ice cream. Just wanted a 2nd opinion before attempting this with expensive foi. Now, I don't have his recipe in my head for the aerated flaw, but I believe he uses
+
+[47:45] fois fat. And you could probably use a substitute for fois fat, like duck fat or something harder than that. I forget what it was. You know, next time I ask him, I'll see him. I'll ask him, but they didn't test out all those recipes with like boatloads of flaw because it would be really expensive. They tested with an alternate cheaper fat, and I forget what it is. I don't think it was butter because it doesn't behave the same way. I think it was, I think it was duck fat or maybe a mixture of duck fat and butter. But anyway, um, the aeration that they get at WD or did, you know, um, back when they had this on the menu, uh, with ice cream was
+
+[48:19] like the stuff was so aerated that it was like angel food cake. So if you can do that, you could probably aerate the flaw, um, I would run a test with a cheaper fat to see whether it bubbles up. You know what I mean? Like do something with, do it with duck fat or do it with butter, see if it aerates. It won't set the same way, but just see if it aerates. Let me know. And next time I speak to Wiley, I will ask him what they use as
+
+[48:42] floss substitute when they're testing out recipes so that they don't break the bank. Okay. Todd Bryant writes in, hey there, I'm traveling abroad to Israel and Turkey. I'd like to go to Turkey and Israel, but I'd like to go to Turkey. We have done a lot of studies on Turkish food stuff and I've had some Turkish intern. Anyway, do you have any tips on how to bring back yummy and rare foodstuffs, meats, cured meats, cheeses, fresher dried fruits, spices or
+
+[49:05] liquids in my luggage without them being confiscated by the cretins at customs. Thanks, folks, Brian. Nastasia, you're a sneak. What do you think? I don't know. I mean, just to stuff it in the bag and don't say anything. Well, that's a helpful freaking tip. I mean, what's he, what do you mean? Well, okay, look, obviously vacuum bag anything so the dogs can't sniff. Yeah, right? Look unassuming. It, you know, you know, if you, if you, if they're racist. It helps to be, uh, you know, like look like me, boring white guy. You know what I mean? That's helpful. Um, sad to say the true. Um, uh, you know, I've brought some evil stuff back in. I haven't done it recently. My sister-in-law brought an entire prosciutto back in her backpack. Yeah, but I think the dogs are much more hardcore now. I don't know what the penalties are. Steinarten has an interesting thing about this. He just says what he has. He declares it, and usually they're just too, like, whatever, to look at it. They just look at him and he pretends. Another thing you could do, like with cheeses, is you can just say, hey, their age more than 60 days. Oh, yeah. I brought a cat on a plane that was one month old, and I told him it was 8 months, and they were like, okay. Yeah, you gotta know the rules and get around it. Look, no one's good. Look, if you're going to Turkey, get select on derma is not done. the ice cream. Get celeb, the orchid powder. And, you know, I don't know, it's not drugs. So you, like, tell them that it's not, you know, whatever. I never get stopped, almost never. Once in Germany. And I got hardcore hosed. But other than that, I almost never get stopped. Man, I want people right in and see what they think about this. Now listen. Don't bring anything in it actually could cause naked epidemic, like don't bring citrus fruit from someplace to the United States to
+
+[50:52] California, and then, you know, totally shaft a $1000000000 industry because I don't want to give advice to help that happen.
+
+[50:57] That makes sense. Does that make sense? Anyway. Okay. Now, let me see what we got here. Okay, we got a question in from Andrew. Uh, who says, uh, see, we should post a poll on the blog asking who listens to our show on a specific date, and we can even put options for live listening and podcast, and then that way we can figure out what's going on. What do you think? Yeah, it was a good idea. All right, we'll look into it. But anyway, the main reason he's emailing is that his pressure cooker is broken and it sucks. And so he's looking to buy a new one. I've read under various posts on pressure cookers and modern cuisine's chapter on them, and I'm still not totally sure what the best option is. I know you like Coon Recon, which I do. But modernist cuisine got me worried about the spring indicator becoming inaccurate over time. And there's also the matter of choice between a model with a large thing on top or the little pin. The All-American, the All-American pressure canners what we're talking about, looks good, but he's unsure whether the sterilizer or the normal pressure cooker is the better option.
+
+[51:53] The sterilizer concerns me because the tube from the valve going into it and how long it is, and the manufacturer says it's not to be used as a pressure cooker. What's ups us. I mean, the middle. There's a color. All right, let me finish reading this and I'll go to color. On the other hand, if I was to go to the All American pressure cooker, how practical and safe is weighing down the weight valve thing. What I want out of this is the best pop swap option for both canning and pressure cooking and cost matters in so much as I
+
+[52:14] want, only how to buy one thing and what size should I get? Okay, I'm going to answer that in one second. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, David, it's Sasha. We're from Situate, Massachusetts. Hey, how you doing? Long time to speak. Long time to speak. How are you? All right. Two things. One, I came back from France a couple of weeks ago and brought back some foie gras and truffles and had relatively little difficulty, but a friend of mine who brought
+
+[52:38] back more or less the same thing. But also brought back a sausage. The dogs were all over, the sausage, and then the customs people opened up everything, and I looked into it a little bit. And it turns out that there's no uniformity. It's very much discretion at the airport. So rules in one place will have no bearing on anywhere else. You're coming into Logan? Uh, I was coming into, well, actually, it turned out we were both coming into Logan, although they were moving on. Right. Is Logan still pretty hardcore? Uh, well, I had to assure them that everything was cooked and sealed as if it were in a can and they were skeptical, but they let me
+
+[53:14] through, but I looked into it around the country. It's not uniform at all. Right. And, you know, I've had an issue actually. The only time I've gotten hammered was with a sausage. So it's interesting. I mean, maybe, and I'm assuming the sausage wasn't vacuum packed down, so it had probably more residual smell to it. No, it was it was from an open air market that you couldn't pass by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously minimize stuff that the dogs can smell and know how to talk a good game and be prepared to lose everything, right? Well, yes, and also you need to declare everything if you, if you, if they catch you, uh, you're in trouble. You mean, yeah, they, yes, right. So say you're bringing some foodstuffs back, but just pretend that it's all legit, and then if they catch you with it being illegit, you could just say you didn't, that, is the misinterpretation, is that what you're saying? Yes, the Stunning Garden approach sounds right to me. Yeah, very good. I have another question, though. A fairly simple one, I think, which is, um, I, you know, I
+
+[54:11] cook the turkey for Thanksgiving, and according to various charts, it should have been in the neighborhood of 5 hours, and it was done in about
+
+[54:19] 2.5 quarter. And other people have the same, uh, same result and what's going on, is, is it that the steam from the, uh, um, from the stock underneath is steaming it and just cooking it much, much
+
+[54:35] faster? Well, what was the cooking technique? Roasting, um, I roasted it like 325, um, uh, but I poured, you know, uh, a couple of quarts of stock into the roasting pan at the bottom. Right. I do that as well to stop from scorching. I don't know if that's going to accelerate it or not. Uh, when the, the, the numbers for how fast it's going to be done was based on open cavity bird. Yeah. It was a £19 bird and it should have been by charts about 5 hours or so, but every year. It's the same thing. I don't want to, uh, I don't, I want to time it properly. I wind up using some chart, and it's always done 2 or 3 hours early. Well, those charts are always horrible. These are horrible. They're based on like bad. They're based on bad stuff. We should get like one of these guys like Doug Baldwin or something to actually figure it out based on like circumferential measurement of the turkey's
+
+[55:34] breast and then approximate the gap, you know, the internal void. I wonder whether this stock's going to make an appreciable difference. I don't know, but I will look into it. Okay. Alrighty? Good enough. thanks Hey, thanks for calling in. All right. Quickly back to Andrew's pressure cooker problem. Or look, the American Pressure Canner. I love them and they're the only way to go for big, big things, and they go up to higher pressures than other things. They can make it up to like a, you know, 22 PSI, which I don't really think is necessary. But I think they're a pain in the butt because you have to seal a bunch of hand knobs all the time to make sure that they're not leaking. They're made out of all aluminum, which means that you have to take care of them when you wash them with detergents and some people don't like to cook acidic stuff in aluminum
+
+[56:16] or, you know, basic stuff in aluminum. So they need protection. They tend to take up more space in the kitchen. I like it because it's very accurate and I can run experiments with it, but from normal cooking, I don't use it. Um, the, um, I would use the, I, Coon Recon is great. I don't really care. I mean, like the spring, I don't know if it actually loses accuracy over time or not, but the spring is almost free.
+
+[56:39] You can buy a bunch of springs if you're worried about it. and replace it. I have the one that has the spring right in the center that goes up and down, and I've used it for, you know, 6 years or something like that, and I've never had a problem with it other than I broke the handle off of it. And I shattered the plate on the top. And so it's kind of weird looking, but the thing still cooks like a demon. you know, had to replace the gasket once. Uh, I would stay away from, uh, you know, the models that, um, vent because I think it, uh, kind of reduces uh, the taste profile. get the biggest one that you can. Another thing is like some people will sell you 2 pots and then one lid, which you can go back and forth. But, I mean, I like the coon recon. I mean, they don't they don't pay me or anything, but I like them a lot. Uh, and I haven't had a problem with them kind of going uh, going south on you. I mean, I just haven't. There was, I read some QC problems, quality control problems with Coon Recon for a little while, but I think they have that
+
+[57:35] thing. they have that thing fixed. So I would go for it if you have the money. I've never needed anything else. In fact, when I have to work at work, I bring my home pressure cooker in rather than using the crappy ones that they have there. Just saying. Not saying that they're crappy, the ones that they have at the FCI. I am just saying that they're crap. Okay. By the way, my son thinks crap is a curse. Yeah, it is when you're young. Okay. But not for an 11 year old. okay? Okay. Okay. And we'll round out on this. By the way, he has a best sign off for us ever, which is keep on keep being awesome. You like that? Nice. Anyway. Okay. So my other questions are more about your personal views on subjects. So if you need to sacrifice them for someone else's more tangible questions, that's cool. Well, I won't. I'm going to end with them instead. I was wondering what your views are on the waste involved with sous vide or low temperature cooking. I often feel guilty about throwing out ziplocs after only using them for a few hours and slightly horrified, a thought of what a restaurant that employs the method must go through, a bit hippie-ish, but I can't help it. All right. It is, it's, look, kind of an issue, but on the other hand, I mean, you can reuse the
+
+[58:38] Ziplocs, nobody does because it's a huge hell mess to clean them out and they're all
+
+[58:44] goopy and if you're going to save them for a long time, it's a nightmare. I'd have to do a calculation based on total final usage of
+
+[58:52] materials and resources in terms of like the less amount of energy it takes to cook using that way versus an oven, the less you have to evacuate your kitchen because you're using low temperature instead of using something that
+
+[59:03] uses it burns up a lot of gas. I'd also have to figure out how much plastic wrap I'd have to use to wrap the stuff afterwards if I wasn't using Tupperwares or something that seals itself. So there's all sorts of things. But it is something that I should probably think about more than I do. What do you think, says? Yeah, she's like, I don't care, you're too late. I not going to give you anything than one word answers. Only one word answer for you at this point. Anyway, my other question is what we're going to end on. My other question is about your views on using MSG and cooking. Many chefs know and actively say that MSG hasn't been found to have any negative
+
+[59:35] effects, yet they will still go out of their way to include MSG rich foods in their dishes rather than go for the pure stuff. Now, I know that in some cases, these foods give complimentary flavors, but there are other cases, like
+
+[59:46] Eston Blumenthal using seaweed in a shepherd's pie, where the ingredient is purely for its umami boost.
+
+[59:52] Okay. All right, it's very interesting question. Look it. Uh, I don't use MSG. I just never got in the habit of it, but I do use a lot of MSG stuff, and I'm one of those people that happens to know because I've read all of the studies and don't use crazy post-hoc, ergopropter,
+
+[1:00:08] hoc, illogical stuff. at least 3 podcasts about MSG. This is a separate question. If you had read the question or even listened to it while I was speaking, you would see it's a separate question. The question is, why do chefs not use it, even though they know it's safe? And I think there's a couple of reasons. I think mainly it goes to perception. I think, uh, you know, when you're a chef and you're cooking something, you have to not only cook to what you think is right, but you have to cook to what your customers think is
+
+[1:00:37] right or you're going to alienate a lot of people. And the high-end people, right? There's a whole group of kind of farm to table, like, you know, as you said, hippie-ish people who won't consume MSG on principle,
+
+[1:00:50] right? And so then to put that in your dish cuts off an entire group of people from using it,
+
+[1:00:58] right? from enjoying your food. And it injects a level of controversy into your menu that you might not want to inject in. You know, it's just, you know, unless unless you're like Dave Chang, who's like, you tell me foie gras badge, so every menu on the, every menu item is going to have foie gras to shut up.
+
+[1:01:16] Like he, he can do, does stuff like that. He'll make points. But you know, unless your point is to make a point about it. You don't want to alienate someone for something that you can do in some other way, especially if you haven't grown up using it as a
+
+[1:01:28] spice. You get around it in other ways. There is no functional difference between the MSG, as a separate seasoning, other than it adds a little salt, as well, because there's sodium in it. Uh, and uh, the stuff that you get from sources like uh, seaweed. But I think it would be a problem for a lot of chefs to go ahead and put it on the menu because why, you know, they're in the business of
+
+[1:01:52] making money. So making a statement like that probably isn't in their best business interest. On the other hand, maybe it is that they're just a little squeamish about you. In other words, like there's things that like, uh, there's things that you believe in, that you don't do yourself or there's things that you're not willing to go to. I don't know. Your point, I think, is that maybe they feel a little dirty using it. Even though they say it's okay, that they feel a little dirty doing it. And maybe you're right. It's an interesting question. I have to think about it and you know what I'm going to do? Go and go buy myself a package of MSG, cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday from around 12 to 1245 from the back of Roberta's
+
+[0:32] Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Hey, Jack, our engineer, Jack, in the booth, as always. My headphones appear to be not working. Ah. Thank you. Join as usual in the station with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez cooking issues, Hammer, and usual resident meaning. Caller just called back. What? The caller, our caller called. Hello, caller. You are on the air. Hi, Dave. Just a quick question about the con specifically. Since it's a time of year where you can get whole unshelled pecans. I like to get a bunch of, you know, pecans and other bolt nuts and cracking myself. And bulk nuts. It's either the pecan itself or that reddish stuff. The inside, like the pits, sort of? Right? Right? Something just, it's bitter and math dry and and just kind of not acidic, but it just really drives out my mouth. What's up with that? All right, so the skin of nuts like that. And pecans is one, the one I think it's been more studied is walnuts. The skin, the kind of the silvery, the reddish brownish skin around it, has a lot of tannins in it that are going to dry out your mouth and can be bitter.
+
+[1:49] And the same, it goes true for a lot of nuts, which is why, for instance, when you use
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+[1:53] hazelnuts, You often heat them briefly and then rub the skins off. So you, I mean, pecans are kind of a pain. I don't really see a lot of recipes where you're supposed to take the skin off of a pecan. Um, have you ever seen that in a recipe? I've never seen that in a recipe. No. No. Me neither. But the strange thing about this phenomenon is that, and I know more about walnuts with this, is that different cultivars of walnut will have radically different astringency and bitterness associated with that skin
+
+[2:26] layer. So, you know, it all depends on exactly who you're getting it from,
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+[2:31] et cetera, et cetera. You could try to a hot roast and rub between towels. Any percentage of that skin that you get off of there is going to
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+[2:41] decrease that perception. The downside is, is that it's not going to look like a pecan anymore
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+[2:49] for, you know, for what people are used to doing. If you notice this specifically in a person that you're buying bulk from. No, I just usually get them, you know, diamond, diamond or whoever, just in a bulk bag. And when I do the pecans, I really notice the bitterness. I don't really notice it so much for the other nuts, oddly enough. Yeah, do you uh, not even for walnuts, huh? Well, I mean, a little, but pecans, like, sometimes they just really zing me or whatever. Well, you know, lots of, like, so, you know, we used to make a lot and hopefully we will again. Uh, pecan oil and pecan butter in uh, in the centrifuge and the bottom layer of that has all of that stuff that you
+
+[3:31] are talking about. The, uh, you know, because the skin layer settles to the bottom when you're centrifuging it. And so, you know, that's one way to get rid of it. Do you live in the south? Yeah. I mean, what I would do is search out a, you know, a really, like, I looked online once because we were looking into selling nut oils at school a couple
+
+[3:52] years back, and I found a couple of very, I can't remember their names, unfortunately, off the top of my head, but a couple of super high quality producers, you know, that will give you fresh this year's crop right when they get
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+[4:04] it, uh, and just, I'm sure loads higher than whatever the commercial stuff is. And strangely the prices weren't that bad. You know what I mean? Yeah, you might want to look into that. And then the folks that I spoke to on the phone, uh, where, you know, and this is the good thing about dealing with real people is they actually grew the darn thing. So if you tell them your concerns, they can they could probably steer you the right way. So does age affect it also? Well, uh, age, I don't know about age and um, astringency. I mean, obviously nuts as they age get rancid. Uh, and, you know, they they tend to not be as good. I mean, um, and that's why, you know, it's always best to vacuum pack, uh, you know, in
+
+[4:50] can, so you don't crush them too much, but it's always best, uh, best to vacuum pack. things that are high in oil content. So a lot of nuts when they're commercially produced are vacuum packed for that reason or nitrogen flushed or any one of a number of things you can do to remove the oxygen so that you don't have oxidation
+
+[5:06] problems. So not so definitely unstable. I mean, I'm sure you've had, um, you know, you've had some nuts sitting out for a while and you try to get the, they turn stale, obviously, and then you try to
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+[5:16] uh, get the crispness back by uh, roasting them for a minute, letting them cool down, and the taste just isn't the same. It's just they've either like gone stale permanently or gone rancid because they have such a high oil content, you know? Yeah. Very cool. Do you think this is anything like when you get a funky batch of pine nuts, you know, you get that pine nut mouth condition. Probably not. I haven't I haven't researched what that is. I think that's probably something, uh, like very specific, and I don't know that might be, and I don't know anything about it. So I, you know, I hesitate to speculate, but for instance, I'm told that it's a fungal problem, like a bad pistachio, and that those are actually extremely toxic because of high levels of
+
+[5:59] afletoxin, uh, that are uh, pleasant. And anyone that's ever bitten into a bad pistachio knows that it's like one of the most horrible things that could possibly happen to you. So definitely don't eat that. No, don't eat that. In fact, we used to make a pistachio oil and butter, and what
+
+[6:16] we, you know, at the school, we would get these £3 tins of nuts, right? From a reputable person. And so, uh, one time I had an intern make a batch of pistachio butter with it, and they just threw the tin into
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+[6:28] the uh, into our grinder, and then into our centrifuge, and the stuff tasted awful. Then from then on, I said, hey, look, you have to throw all of the pistachios onto a sheet, a big sheet tray, and you have to look at them all, and we took out all the ones that had yellowed, you know, with age that weren't green
+
+[6:46] anymore. All the ones that look shriveled, and the stuff tasted great. So, you know, I know with pistachios, they're extremely fragile. Uh, you know, and and most suppliers, you know, if you're buying uh, bulk shelled nuts, they don't, they're not giving you the, they're not giving you necessarily 100% of the best, even if they're a reputable manufacturer.
+
+[7:05] It only takes a couple bad nuts to really ruin things. Yeah. Anyway, good luck with that and let us know how it works out for you. All right, thanks a lot, Dave. Keep bringing the awesome. Thanks. All righty. so let me see. I am I'm late as usual. And we are being held to our time today because there's a live show coming on to Heritage Radio Network. And so I'm going to read the promo after the 1st break. I'm just going start going into questions. Okay, Andy writes in. Hey, Nastasia and Dave, I recently acquired a massive £21 free-ranged age country ham from Nancy Newsom at, uh, her name's Nancy Mahaffey, actually, from Nancy Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's
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+[7:46] hand. And there's a bunch of cursing about how delicious it is. Holy effing sugar honey iced tea delicious, which it is. I actually happen to like that ham a lot. Had incredible marbling. I want to figure out a way to get the best yield from the ham while eating it over a few months. Start into the less meaty side of the ham, less meaty side would be the, you know,
+
+[8:04] they calls it the forward top side, I think. Serrano style, i.e. along the length. But I'm thinking about boning it out and bonding it back together, prosciutto style, and then slice it across the face of the ham. I practice deboning on a smaller home cure at ham. So I think I've got good butchering method, but how does the home cook press and bind it back together? I assume some form of meat glue, any recommendations for a witch style to use, et cetera, et cetera. The bone will leave a big hole. How do I ensure that I can press the hole completely shut? As a side note, um, this ham is much thicker than either the serrano or the prosciutto, but I can't think of
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+[8:37] the way that would affect the preparation. First of all, a couple notes. For those of you that don't have don't eat American country hams, Colonel Newsom's hams out of Kentucky is one of my favorite producers, they've been producing for a long, long time. The recipe is several 100 years old. Nancy Mahaffey is the current proprietor and cure master of that place. They have a distinction that they only cure one time a year at the traditional time in the winter. And then the hams are aged, however old they are. She sometimes has hams that are over a year old, but in general, you can judge the age of the ham based on how long after the winter it is right now. So the hams that she has left over now are a year old, if you can get them. They're good. Another thing is that she has been working with heritage foods, our parent people's,
+
+[9:21] uh, to get some high, very high quality, um, ham in that has a lot of marbling. So she's been doing that. I think Benton's has been doing that, Benton's hams, and Edwards hams. I've had, I haven't had, I've had a little bit of Nancy's. It was good. I had a lot of Edwards one, which was excellent. Uh, and they're all good because I've said for many years that uh, American Hammasters, we, you know, they have the ability to cure. They have the know-how, their, their, you know, their, their masters at it. But what has been lacking is the quality of the raw material. And so these people have been joining up with folks like Patrick Martins and trying to kind of rectify that and be able to produce a ham that has the same kind of quality in the meat as the highest
+
+[10:01] end European style hams. And I have to say they are some incredibly delicious things. Where you say, as a side note, that this ham is much thicker than either the
+
+[10:12] serrano or the prosciutto, it really does affect the preparation. has a lot to do with the way American hands are hung. American hands typically were designed. Even the, you know, the country cured ones to be eaten in slices and then briefly
+
+[10:24] cooked or cooked and then sliced. And so they want them to be a little wetter than you would on your average European ham. They're hung in the opposite direction from a normal European ham, and they're not squished flat. And so they have the cushion, that big part of the meat, the cushion area, is a lot
+
+[10:39] thicker than it would be in a European ham. And what that means is, is that you're going to have a wetter center typically on that. And so it's going to be more difficult to get a perfect slice out of an American style ham that way than it would be to get out of a European
+
+[10:54] ham. And you're also, because of the way American hands are hung, and aged, you're going to get more of a variation in salt level and
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+[11:02] density and water level between the outside of the meat, especially towards the face, towards where it was cut off of the animal weather,
+
+[11:10] there's no skin, and the center of the cushion where it's going to be the softest. So it does affect preparation. It's not better, it's not worse, but it does affect it. Now, onto your real question here, which is, how do I, well, you already have a boning technique. The best way is to go, uh, F Dick cutlery makes a, uh, what looks like a long gouge that you can use, uh, like a tunnel boning thing that you can get in. And that's what a lot of the people use to get the bones out effectively. I have to say that boning a prosciutto and a country ham is the only time in my life I've ever
+
+[11:41] broke in a knife, at least that I've ever broken it when it wasn't breaking it on purpose. So, you know, they are difficult to bone depending on how old they are, right? Younger one, like seven, 8 month old, not going to be a problem, but year, year and a half, it can become kind of a nightmare to bone out and keeping one piece. Assuming you have a good technique to bone out that take the bone out, you're going to have a hole in the center. And even the professionals here, when they bone it, are not going to
+
+[12:04] take be able to squish that hole flat. And the reason is, it takes an immense amount of pressure to do that. So in prosciutto, the Parma, what they'll do is they'll age it bone in, like God wants you to. They'll remove the bone, and then they'll put it into a ham mold, and the ham mold has a water cooling, because otherwise the ham would heat up too much, and it would affect the flavor of the ham, and they put it under immense pressure inside of a metal mold that's, you know, very well
+
+[12:35] cooled, in order to compress it into that ham shape, exclude any oxygen, or anything else from the inside of that gap. I don't think you're going to be able to do that. I just don't think it's possible. Another problem with enclosing that hole. is you could be sealing something and you might want to let it dry out a little more in there, especially on an American hand that can be a little wetter on the inside than European ham. You're also going to want to make sure you cut off any kind of bad areas or taint around that.
+
+[13:04] Now if you wanted to try. I mean, I encourage you to try and tell me what happens. Yes, you could sprinkle some meat glue in that thing. Put it between 2 plates on a hydraulic press and press it flat. I don't know what kind of results you're going to have. It's not typically something you would do. And I just might make this suggestion is that because American hams weren't necessarily cured in order to slice in one whole piece, I would remove the section below the
+
+[13:30] bone, and then you just have the section above the bone that you can slice as its own. It's going to have a little kind of semicircle mark in it, but that's okay. And then the bottom piece, which is a lot tougher anyway, is going to, you know, maybe be served as a
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+[13:43] separate separate preparation. Anyway, my thoughts. What do you think, Stas? That sounds good. Do you want to take a break? It's 24. I don't know. Do I want to take a break? You just want to go all the way through? I'll take one more and then I'll do a break. Okay. Uh, I don't I don't have the person's name. but it's another faithful, faithful listener from iTunes and also a big fan of heritage radio in general. Big shout out to Harris radio. I have 3 brining questions. Is there a rule of thumb for the brine to Brian's strength to soak time? I'm looking for a general brine. I can customize to accommodate the amount of time I have to brine. Some days I can do an overnight. Some days I want to do an hour soak. This edition of herbs or other flavors in a brine come through in the end, product. I see many recipes for complex brines with multiple flavor editions. Is this just showing off? And is there a brine concentration that could reduce the risk of salmonella or other bugs? I refrigerate and cook properly but I'm curious. Thanks. Okay. I am embarrassed to say, this is a subject that I should have researched long, long ago,
+
+[14:42] but have not. Here's the issue with brine strength and soak time. There's a couple things that are Brian is doing. Salt takes salt first. Salt is flavoring your meat, right? That's one thing it's doing. And also salt soaking through into the meat is altering the protein structure so that it can hold onto more water when it's cooked and thereby provide more insurance against overcooking.
+
+[15:05] Now, I've definitely over brine things, but you know, I haven't done the research. And what I'm saying is, is that I'm going to have to do more research before I can thoroughly answer this question.
+
+[15:17] It's one of the few things that even though I've been doing it a lot and I'm supposed to be a technical related cook who pays attention to this sort of nonsense.
+
+[15:24] Uh, I have literally always done this by uh, making a brine dipping my finger in it and tasting it. And I always make my brines pretty much the same, which is make them tell they're salty as the ocean and for chicken or poultry. I then add sugar until I can just barely taste the sweetness and then go. I don't find that other flavors do too much to it, except for they flavor the outside quite effectively. In vacuum bag situations, you can get some permeation in, but not a lot,
+
+[15:51] but, um, I promise, Nastasia's writing this down now. for me to do some research, maybe I'll go look in the modernist cuisine and see what they have to say about
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+[16:00] it and get back to you on that next week, right? Nastasia, making a note? She's pretend typing. By the way, folks, that's nostalgia's pretend typing, right? So I'll tell you when she's actually doing what I'm asking so that I can properly answer you
+
+[16:13] sometime, but that wasn't it. Okay. So with that, let me go to our 1st commercial break. Call your questions two, 718, 497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[16:35] I've been holding that so long, I've been sleeping all alone. Oh, I miss you. I've been on the phone. I've been slipping all along. I won't keep skin.
+
+[17:04] Welcome back to cooking issues. By the way, Jack, I don't know if we're going to get to it, but you had a shout out for good intern music. You like that? Anyway, we'll get to it in a minute. Okay, hello, Nastasia. My name is Jamie and my research on roto apps. That's road reevaporators, for all of you not hip to the fact, have led me time and time again to the cooking issues blog, which I have not updated in a long
+
+[17:28] time, and I apologize more on that later. I am looking into using a roto vap for distilling produce from our 72 acre farm. I had a few questions that I was wondering if Dave may answer. Currently, we were looking into buying a larger Roto app for a line of spirits we intended
+
+[17:41] distill in the near future. Depending on yield, we were looking into producing everything from start to finish, without rectifying any existing base spirits, i.e. by neutral spirits, uh, made off
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+[17:50] site and infusing them with uh, stuff and then redistilling them on the road of that. I understand the equipment will distill alcohol out of a solvent while maintaining the flavors to the truest form, which is
+
+[17:59] true, that's the case. I just want to know how much can we rely on the road of app to get a low wine mash, low wine is a low
+
+[18:07] alcohol product, or the 1st distillation run off of a normal thing, to an 80 proof
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+[18:13] finish liquor? I'm assuming, so 80 proof, 40%, finished liquor. Has Dave ever heard of distilling one's own base spirit through the
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+[18:20] Roto app? I've read that Dave personally buys low-end vodka, sometimes high-end, uh, to pay the taxes, uh, and not run into any legal issues with that aside, could it be done from the
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+[18:29] mass straight to the Rotavap, um, running it through again and again? Thanks, Jamie Oaks from Jamie at Tamworthgarden.com. Tamworth Garden. I'd love a garden full of Tamworth pigs, wouldn't you? Be delicious garden. Good. Okay. So here's the deal. First of all, even though I do buy pre-made spirits and redistill them, and therefore pay the taxes on it, it is still illegal. So it's still not legal for me to do it. You know, the reason it's illegal is because of tax bases, tax purposes, right? That's the reason that distillation is illegal. And our legal system hasn't figured out a way in most areas to kind of get around
+
+[19:08] that. Although things hopefully are changing soon and have been changing in certain places. That said, the laws specifically are written to prevent someone with a 72 acre farm from taking all of their produce
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+[19:19] on site, converting it into liquor and selling it without paying taxes. So if you're going to be doing it, um, either just don't, you know, tell anyone that you're doing it, uh, or get
+
+[19:28] a permit to do it, uh, because other, otherwise, like that's exactly the kind of thing that, uh, that those, those guys are looking at. Now, um, I have done, uh, you know, distillation uh, with uh, wine before. I've never distilled anything below about who starting alcohol content was below about 12%. So the lowest alcohol content thing that I've really ever. I mean, other than water, right? Other than just water-based stuff. is about 12%. And I was easily able to get brandies well above 40% on one pass, period. Bang. And it's because, um, uh, the way the Rotav app works, uh, you know, when everything's under uh, vacuum, you can get, um, uh, you know, it's been a long time since I've researched the curves, but you can get, uh, there's a certain uh, inherent,
+
+[20:25] like theoretical reflux rate on the inside, so it doesn't work the same way as with normal distillation with plates and plus the vacuum shifts everything around in terms of what boils off first, et cetera, et
+
+[20:33] cetera. But I have taken, well, let's take port, which I do all the time, like 18 to 20, put that in, and I'll
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+[20:40] get, I'll get a 100 proof brandy off, no sweat. No sweat. So, um, 100 proof. sorry. Yeah, 100 proof. So, yes, that's definitely feasible. Your speeds are going to be quite low because unlike a normal still, you're going to need to provide,
+
+[20:58] uh, if you want to keep the temperatures extremely low to not affect the flavors of your fruits, you're going to have to use uh, a cooling power other than tap water. If you're using a cooling power other than tap water, you are going to have
+
+[21:11] to, um, you're going to have to chill it. that's gonna be really expensive to chill all that stuff down. Alternatively, you can keep your temperatures somewhat higher, right? Uh, and then, uh, when your temperatures are higher, then you can use regular tap water or, you know, lime water, whatever process, you know, process water, stream water, whatever you have, to chill your roto app down, uh, and keep your margins uh, high enough on
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+[21:33] your, uh, the temperature between the, the water bath and the, uh, and the cooling water uh, large enough to be able to do a good job. But you have to test to see whether or not the stuff is going to taste the way you want it. Before you invest in a 20 and 30 liter rotary evaporator. I highly, highly recommend you
+
+[21:51] invest in a small rotary evaporator because the process scales up quite well from a small
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+[21:59] roto app to a big roto app. So, you know, invest a couple of grand in a small Roto app or go find someone that has one that you can use. So you can see whether you like the procedure before you invest in something as big as a large rotary evaporator,
+
+[22:12] right? Because there's a lot of, it takes a while to get to learn it. Another problem about doing base wines, like you're saying, is that most rotary evaporators don't have a way to separate heads from
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+[22:23] tails. And you're going to have a big, big problem on this. So what you're going to have to do, I mean, I designed a pump for my rotary evaporator that allows me to taste the distillate as it
+
+[22:32] works, as it as it's produced, so I can do easy cuts between heads and tails when I'm doing a distillation, right?
+
+[22:38] It makes my life a lot easier, but it's not something that's standardly available. If you need to do that, what you're going to need to do is over the course of your distillation run on the 1st pilot run, you're going to have to figure out for X number
+
+[22:50] of milliliters or liters of stuff that I put into the distillation flask. I got to throw away the 1st X amount. You're going to do that by opening your system every, you know, chunk of time and tasting it to see whether you've gotten rid of the
+
+[23:05] heads, and then at the same time, you're going to have to start tasting to see when the tails come in. And then hopefully that recipe scales from small to large. In my experience, it has scaled percentage wise. As long as your temperatures are the same. Your, uh, you know, your, the, the product that you're putting in is the same and the vacuum levels that you use are the same. these are all things that are going to have to be tweaked out. So I wish you the best of luck. And if you have any more questions, please write them in because everybody knows I love a Rotav app. Did I read the promo yet? Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cooking
+
+[23:50] enthusiasts, and most costs only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you, with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, monitors pantry as your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $50 or more, 50 gone up, huh? Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $50 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free home-sized package of any ingredient of your choice. That's pretty cool Any ingredient. Nice. Simply use the promo code CI 65 when placing your order online at
+
+[24:30] modernestpantry.com and indicate in the comment box one ingredient you would like. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist pantry cooking needs. 50 bucks though, huh? I guess in exchange they get to get any anyone that they want. Yeah. Okay. All right. By the way, Nastasia. Have you ever heard of Wolfman Jack? Oh, good. I was I was thinking on the way over, like, you know, like radio people I used to listen to when I was a kid, and whether you'd heard of them, if you hadn't heard of them, I was going to be incredibly
+
+[25:00] depressed, like you're a 3 year old, and I'm 9000000 years old. You know, uh, uh, okay, I'm going to go to question, because otherwise, I'm going to run out of time. I was going to tell a story about my cherry allergy and my hoping that by getting my tonsils out, I could fix it, but how all my hopes were dashed and I'm incredibly depressed about it. Anyway, Jason Molinari writes in. Uh, 2 questions. Recently, some new studies have shown that many or most plastic leech estrogenic chemicals, which have been shown to be harmful to fetal and young mammals messing with development.
+
+[25:31] This is a particular concern to me, given that I have a 2.5 year old girl, I should probably say 2.5 . Yeah. 2.5 year old girl, and we often eat sous vide food. I understand research seems to be incomplete, but you may have access to other articles or studies which I do not. Should I be freaking out, or is this another item blown out of proportion? And then there's a link to the relevant study, and you'll have to, you'll have to excuse me for one minute while I call up said relevant study. But the relevant study is... Oh, no,
+
+[26:04] please tell me I didn't close it. Okay. is astrogenic. That's a good word to start with anything, right? If you're writing if you're writing anything, a book, magazine article, anything, start it with the word estrogenic. Most plastic products released estrogenic chemicals. A potential health problem that can be solved. And this is a fairly recent article, I think, from July of 2011. And look, this article was new to me. I read it this morning, and I read some other articles on this subject, but the point is basically that there's a whole clash of chemicals called endocrine
+
+[26:36] disruptors that mess with your hormones and can do things like cause early puberty in girls or can have kind of delayed sexual development in
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+[26:48] boys, it just messes you up all around, kind of. And so as a result of this, many people have stayed away from, for instance, baby bottles containing the
+
+[26:56] ingredient, what's that? containing the ingredient, BPA, Bisphenol A. So this is something that's been kind of bubbling under the surface. People have been worried about certain plastics, but the theory has been that the plastics that don't contain known endocrine disruptors are okay. So what this study did was they took a whole boatload of different plastics. And basically they sent the researchers over the course of 4 years out to various supermarkets and food chains, purchased both empty and full plastic
+
+[27:34] containers, and then subjected them to a bunch of tests to try to see whether they could leech crap out of these things, including microwave heating, including soaking it in alcohol, including soaking it in salt, things like that, different various heating machines.
+
+[27:49] And unfortunately, and then what they would do is they take the, whatever they did, you know, whatever whatever the liquid was, they used to leach, and they would apply it to see whether or not it bound, um, to have an assay, to see, they have an assay for uh, you know, for estrogen,
+
+[28:03] um, uh, estrogen, uh, estrogenic products. And they said, is there a reaction on this assay that we can see that there
+
+[28:10] are active components in here that could be endocrine disruptors? Okay. Bad news. I'll give you the bad news. The bad news is, according to this study, many things that you would think are safe, including baby bottles that are labeled BPA
+
+[28:23] free. In fact, can leech crap out. And even plastics that are free of plasticizers. For instance, polyethylene, can have additives added to the plastics that make them release some form of, you know, like estrogenically active compound into foods under certain
+
+[28:42] conditions. So that's the bad news. This is very new research. So I really don't know what to make of it. I looked up some of the other relevant articles on it. Um, and, you know, there's, there's just not really uh, enough. No, part of the problem is, is that there's no kind of no, no,
+
+[29:02] no, minimum level at which kind of where this stuff is okay, uh, and, you know, and the research is still being done. The good news was I couldn't look over the charts thoroughly and like really digest them, but it looks like things like plastic wrap had fairly low levels compared to other
+
+[29:18] things of having things leeching out of them. PETG bottles that were free of BPA tended to leach stuff because the actual monomer itself is it has some activity, some mandocry disruption activity. And if it's not fully, if it degrades over time, that can that can leach out, apparently, according to the article. And so I, I don't know, I just don't know. Uh, it's kind of, uh, it's an interesting subject, and I hope to look uh, into it um, more. Um, I was a little upset to find that things that I knew were free of these sorts
+
+[29:56] of, uh, um, endocrine disruptors in terms of what the actual makeup the plastics were when tested, uh, had some activity in them. I don't know that this stuff's been retested. I got to look into it. anyway. Two, and on a lighter note, can you give me any ideas for some pan sauces, it might go with low temperature fish, meat and poultry. So it's not cooked in a pan except for a super quick sear. There usually isn't any deglazable fond in the pan. And let's face it, a low temperature fillet of cod can be pretty boring even if flavorings are used in the bag. Okay, a couple things you do. One, take the bones or whatever else, and make a stock. If you're doing chicken or doing fish, you know, well, fish, you're not going to brown it. But, you know, chicken, you brown out the bones, make a stock, reduce it and make a sauce that way. In fish, typically what cooks are going to do is they're going to add something that's very high in umami to a
+
+[30:45] finished sauce. That's why a lot of times when these fish came out, you'd see a lot of things with miso sauces, with soy-based sauces, sauces that handle out of those brown notes and those kind of brown characteristics that you would want that you don't get in those high, high temperature things, but it's true that a
+
+[31:01] plain, low temperature filet of cod can be pretty boring unless it's so low temperature that you haven't killed the worms and the worms are still moving around on the inside of a cod.
+
+[31:07] Nastasia, did you know that cod has all sorts of worms in it? Are you ever going to eat cot again? You know, whenever students, the 1st time they butcher cod at the, at the school or wherever, the 1st time you butcher
+
+[31:17] cod, and you see the little worms coming out of it, you're like, I like to, you know what? You've been eating cod your whole life. We cooked the worms out. Speaking of cooked, the worms out, that reminds me of bleach the rabies out, which is Kent Kirschenbaum, our friend at NYU, professor at NYU, his favorite thing that I ever said was
+
+[31:38] bleach the rabies out when I have a new centrifuge, and he was just on Sid the Science Kid. Well, if you next time you have a little kid. Sid, the science kid is like, you know, a show on the TV that little kids watch. Anyway, cool that Ken Sons said the science kid. Okay. I hope that was a good answer. Is that a good answer? Yeah. From Jason Mullen, right. Okay. We have a question in from Matt. how do you think you pronounce that? Hasa? Has? Has? Has? Has? Okay. Love the show. Use iTunes to listen. In regards to braising jus color. This is, by the way, a response where we said, does anyone else have a good way to get the sauce color?
+
+[32:17] Remember? Yeah. So this is a response from Matt. He also has a response for good plating ideas, I think. Okay. and then a question. Okay. So, uh, in regards to braising uh, color, braising sauce color. I learned a technique from Paul Bartolotto, who learned it from George Robuchon on refreshing sauces. The technique is good, not only for color, but flavor as well. But for every service, bring the sauce to a boil. And in a separate pot for a red wine sauce, reduce a half bottle of wine, along with aromatics and roasted shanks of meat scraps or scraps of meat. I don't know what shanks of meat scraps. When the wine is very close to being reduced, crank both pots and slowly incorporate the base into the reduction. Do this 2 ounces at a time, and when you're done, the sauce will be very ruby and have all the flavors reinforced. The color will last for around 5 hours. We did this every service with all of our sauces. Good tip. Good tip. On the topic of fancy presentation for the home cooking. This is a really good tip, by the way. I hadn't thought of it because we're stupid. That's why. YouTube, some baller chef demos to see how they played. French chef.tv has some demos as well, as well as the Alinea slash next videos. That's a really good idea. So so stupid. Everyone on YouTube now has like famous people doing plating work. Why am I such an idiot? And why didn't you suggest that to me? We're useless. Anyway, thanks, Matt. Those are 2 excellent. A good tip and a really good idea. Anyway, finally, I have a question. Is there a specific formula for savory ice creams and sorbets? I have formulas for sweet versions where the solid sugars and liquids are balanced, adapted from Sebastian Canon, who's from the French pastry school, are
+
+[33:52] a competitor in, what's it called? Chicago. Also seen on Michael Lisconis's blog. Ran into Michael Scottis the other day at Sambar, by the way. Oh, yeah. It was? Well, and he told me it was his birthday. What is it? Happy birthday. He's like, oh, I saw Michael Scott's there, his birthday. I know I'm going into to see what's going on. you guys say hello, you're not going to say happy birthday. Nice. So I didn't say happy birthday to guy. him and his wife, Heather, is the GM at Aldea, George Mendes's restaurant. Anyways, now I feel like a jackass for not saying happy birthday. But I was commenting his last, you know, it's pastry chef Armageddon right now. Johnny Ezzini from Jean George is leaving JG, and Michael Escanis is leaving La Bernadan. And I was like, when's your last day? Like, he's like, December 30th. I'm like, what are you, a sissy? You can't go all the way to the 31st and finish lawyer. LeBron Dan's closed on New Year's. I was like, oh, oh. Anyway, uh, good guy, Michael Scott. Okay. All the sorbets and ice cream using this formulation are great. The only thing I've changed is maybe adding non-fat milk protein, a.k.a. dry
+
+[34:53] milk to certain sorbets, although that's going to make them more milky, which is going to make them more like a sherbet, right? Anyway. Do most people substitute isomalt for sucrose or just make a yummy base and hit it with liquid nitrogen? Okay. You can't just hit a base with liquid nitrogen and get a really good result. You can get a sore because the sugar is there as a texturizing agent, right? You need that sugar there to get a proper texture. Otherwise, even with liquid nitrogen, it's gonna be hard. It's not gonna feel right in the mouth. I wouldn't substitute. I mean, you can substitute isomalt. Some people claim that it gives you the runs if you eat too much, but that's never happened to me and I've eaten a bunch once
+
+[35:35] just. The reason is you just don't digest it as much. That's why they say that. I would move to isomalt. I'm going to have to remember. I'm making this up Uh, it's something like 50, 30 to 50% is sweet as sucrose, so it is substantially less sweet, but
+
+[35:49] uh, glucose syrup is even less sweet than um, than isomalt. And I don't know whether it gives you the poops or not. I don't think it gives you the poops, the glucose syrup. So I would go with glucose syrup, which is what you can use are very low DE, um, uh, corn, you know, corn base or syrup. Everyone says corn syrup, you know, look, it's 1st of all, if high fructose corn syrup is what's causing the entire world to fall apart, you know, whether it is or whether it
+
+[36:17] isn't. Not all corn syrups or high foot dose corn syrup, let's just say that right now. Anyway, so a low DE, in other words, non-sweet corn syrup would be the way I would go as opposed to using isomalt. Although I have used isomalt as well. And it works. You just need something that has the water binding properties of,
+
+[36:35] although nice. Anyway, of and the texturizing properties of sugar. Otherwise, the texture is not going to be right. Anyway, I'll try to find some recipes or if you're having problems working out a formulation, just give us another holler and I'll call one of my buddies and figure out the exact numbers.
+
+[36:50] Okay. Question in from Ellie. This is, you know, we remember we had a problem pronouncing. Yeah, she pronunciation guide now. Ellie, like Eddie, but with an L. Okay. I am now on my 2nd immersion circulator unit from eBay in the last 3 years.
+
+[37:07] I'm thinking I should have spent the money on a new one from polyscience instead. Yeah, you know what? I think I said this a 1000000 times. I used to I used to buy circulators constantly off of eBay and then spend all my time keeping them running. And the 1st time I got a new, excuse me, something wrong with my face. I knew polyscience. I was like, wow, this is what it's like to not be a
+
+[37:27] D-bag. Anyway, what? Right, right? No. Anyway, Nastasia's tapping her watch, meaning I have to hurry. Yes, you probably should have. Anyway, the one that the one that's now, the one I have now is a very nice looking digital Lauda with barely any cosmetic damage and it holds the temperature perfectly.
+
+[37:43] For all intents and purposes, it looks barely used. I've had it for maybe 2 months now, and it used to work almost silently, just humming along. Now it seems to be developing a slight grating noise. Nothing very noisy or terribly annoying, but I remember you mentioning that some immersion circulators develop that noise after long-term use. The problem is, I do not remember if you said it was something that could be fixed with some WD 40 or is a problem that will get worse and worse until the machine is unusable in a month or two. Any help is much appreciated. Okay, 1st of all, I don't know which laudi you have. I used to buy loud as all the time. They looked awesome, and they looked barely used, and they all died. They all died on me. What died on them was the Triac. And the ones that I'd use, most of them. I had somewhere the motor went, where the inside, the triac would burn out, so it wouldn't heat anymore. It would still run. The kind of noise you're getting depends. You have to make a decision, uh, and the new loudest probably that doesn't happen to, uh, or newer. Um, you have to figure out whether it's a bearing noise, which it sounds like, like it's a bearing noise, hard to describe, or whether it sounds like the shaft is rubbing on something. If the shaft is rubbing on something, try to bend the bottom a little bit so that the shaft no longer touches any metal
+
+[38:48] parts and that just stop it and then you're good to go for a long time. If it's the bearing making the noise. Then you're kind of in a world of hurt
+
+[38:57] eventually, I have kept them running for months and months and months by spraying with WD40, but remember WD40 ain't food grade. So you don't want to do it too much. And it's very easy to test. Hit the bearing with a little WD-40. and if the squeaking and scraping goes away then it's your bearing. If not, then the shaft is touching on something. Hold on, which jack tone is? Oh, we have a collar? Color, you are on the air. Hey, Dave and Nastasia. This is Sarah Beth's dad. Hey, on Anne. Hey, how you doing? Nice. Good. Did we answer did we answer the question or no? Did work? You did. You sure did. We ended up, uh, so we ended up putting the meat in a uh, boiling water. So now we joke. going to go boil up some steaks for some friends. So, yeah, yeah. So, um, we got 3 different cuts of steak from the same lie. Uh, so it was pretty, hopefully the marbling would stay consistent. And then we put it in a double boiler. So that way the meat didn't hit the bottom of the pan. Right. And then got, got a, got a probe. Just one of the instant reed thermometers that only registered at the tip. And then we put that horizontally into the meat. And um, numbers were almost dead on with the, with the 4 times. And we haven't, we haven't attempted the uh, the equations yet, but uh, we downloaded the app and all that stuff, so we're playing around with that right now. And your numbers, your numbers, uh, jibed with the applications
+
+[40:21] numbers, roughly or? No, no, with that, with that, um, roughly 4 times, you know, the, the, the inch was just
+
+[40:28] about roughly, you know, equal to, you know, when you add in the, the inch to the inch and a half to the 2 inches, it was like a pretty straight, straight line with the times.
+
+[40:38] Really? Yeah, yeah. It shouldn't be straight, though. it shouldn't be linear Yeah, well, that's what it that's what it grafted out of. That's why we're going to, we're going to break out that app and play with that a little bit and see, you know,
+
+[40:52] because it, because it, um, you know, that's what it showed, but like you were saying, it shouldn't be linear.
+
+[40:56] No, no, every every double, every doubling of thickness should be a factor of four. Yeah, yeah. So that's why we're going to break out the thing and see if, you know, maybe something was wrong in our experiment or or just run the math on it and double check it. That's an expensive cut to boil, huh? Oh, you're telling me. I mean, if you're not going to eat it, get like eye of round or something like that because it's got very low fat content in it and it's a lot
+
+[41:24] cheaper. Tastes bad when it's cooked a long time because it goes livery and it doesn't have any fat. So it's not my favorite cut to eat, but if you're going to be boiling
+
+[41:33] it. I mean, how did it taste after you boiled it? Uh, well, yeah, I could have used it for my shoes. It was pretty, pretty tough. Pretty tough. You know, but what I did just for grins, I put it in a hot pan and I, you know, we seared it with some olive oil and garlic and all that, try to dress it up a little bit,
+
+[41:49] but yeah. Once you boil it, sucker's boiled. One last question. How, um, what was the, uh, like, uh, okay, let's say thickness is the Z to mention. How large was the X and Y? Oh, as far as the size of it? Um, they were fairly consistent. So the, if we, we, we took the steak and we cut it in half, so it was like
+
+[42:11] 2, 2 pieces for each size, and they were about 4 inches by 4 inches.
+
+[42:19] you know, but it was it was circumference, but it was like a slab. Right, but a lot bigger, a lot bigger X and Y than Z. Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. approximating a slab. Good, good, good. Exactly. Well, you know, I'm surprised it came out as a linear relationship, I'm
+
+[42:42] going to, you're going to have to, like, fill me in. You have to do some tests with that app. See what it tells what should happen. That's what we're going to do. And the other problem was, you know, we only had like, what, 2 pieces for each thickness, so we didn't have a lot of data points to graph either. Right. Yeah, may I recommend in the future a cheaper cut? Yes. Duly noted. Yeah. Yeah, but my daughter loves your podcast. We were we were listening to it on the on the way to school this morning. Oh, wow. So, yeah, yeah. And and don't worry, I pre-screen most of them for the for the cursing. We try not, well, you know, we really, we try not to do it now, especially because, you know, we now label as a family show. You know, surprisingly, in the real life, I'm the one you have to worry about, but on the air, Nastasia is the one you have to worry about. isn't that strange Uh-huh. I'm not saying any I'm not saying anything. Anybody that's called the hammer, I'm just going to be quiet. All righty. Well, listen, thanks so much for calling. Do you have a separate question or no? No, no, I was just calling to let you guys know that we heard it and we, uh, we did the thing. So, uh, we'll play around with that app and uh, let you know what happened. Cool, thanks so much. Yeah. All right. All right. a good one. Bye. All right. One question we had that I'm going to actually, I know I'm going to postpone to the next one from Howard is with the holiday season winding up, I was wondering, and the reason is going to become apparent. I was wondering if you had any suggestions for kitchen gadget, equipments, and gifts with the holiday season. If you could include some things from a variety of price ranges, that would be great. And I figured this would be a good thing for us to actually discuss on next week's show and to give anyone who's
+
+[44:19] listening an opportunity to write in with what they think good idea would be. What do you think? Smart? I mean, I have my ideas, but, you know, I can, you know, I can do more. Another thing, just to quicken. Kevin writes in, says hope all is well. Just want to drop a quick line, let you know that carbonating vodka with a soda stream system works quite
+
+[44:38] well, and he's attached pictures. And I didn't get a chance to look at the pictures yet, but he said, I use the same tubing I use for an aquarium pump. I have connected to my do yourself immersion circulator. Um, and he recommends using a soda screen to vent out, trapped air before pressurizing for the 1st time to get the pressures high. This is a technique I've advocated for a while if you have a soda stream of putting an extender tube on the end of
+
+[44:58] it so that you can actually carbonate with a smaller amount of liquor and actually have the tube sit below the level. Because if you don't do that, you're not going to get good carbonation. If you fill it up high enough, the problem is it's going to overflow when it
+
+[45:12] foams because vodka wants to foam a little bit after it carbonates. But I will say this also. Kevin, keep tuned. We're going to have, uh, and I'll talk more about it, but I have some new carbonation stuff coming out that's
+
+[45:22] going to, uh, it's going to blow everyone's mind, right? going to blow everyone's mind. How much time do I have left? What? All right. So listen, I have some questions in. For instance, I have another question in from Ellie about Algernate. I'm going to get to that one next time. Colin wrote in with some typical common kind of stuff and we'll get to that next time. And Kangbur wrote in, actually, after you got to speak to us. And by the way, I was giving, you know, Jack. He's the one that says that he no longer fast forwards because he enjoys your choice of
+
+[45:52] Segway music so much. It was an awesome email. Thanks, man. Yeah, so Jack says, thank you, and I'm going to get more to what you wrote about. Other than that, next week. Today we're out of time and this has been cooking issues.
+
+[46:09] Vicious, fish, and vodka. Oh, you did. When you've got Omaha
+
+[46:23] Steaks, convenient everyday protein, waiting at home, that what's for dinner panic turns into your weeknight win. And now's the time to buy during the Omaha Steak Spring Savings event. Save big on their exclusive lineup of mouthwatering steaks, gourmet burgers, air chilled chicken, pork, seafood and more. Go to OmahaSteaks.com for an extra $35 off when you use promo code audio at checkout.
+
+[46:46] That's OmahaStakes.com. Promo code A-U-D-IO. Terms apply, see site for details.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadionetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from about 12 to 1245. on the Heritage Radio Network. In the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? I'm fine. And we got Jack and Carlos in the engineering booth. Hey, fellas. How's it going? going well? Last week was the 2nd kind of anniversary slash holiday
+
+[0:49] party, the Heritage radio network. Went. Good time was had by all. correct, Jack? Yeah, it was awesome. Sorry for cursing in front of your kids. Well, he they're used to it. Yeah, they are not, 1st of all. First of all, they're not. And 2nd of all, we did the ear muff, so... I did a very effective ear muff so much. Daddy, what are you doing? Anyway, okay. Calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. that right? That's that's right. Oh nice. You got it. All right, so we have some questions to get to from. By the way, this week is the last pre-Christmas show, correct, Nastasia? Yes. So next week you have to ask all of your Christmas cooking related
+
+[1:34] questions because that would be our last opportunity to answer them, yeah? We could do it next week. No? I'm doing sure next week. We'll have to ask the questions. Then ask the questions. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, last night, I was on the Anthony Bourdain, the no reservation show, which I wasn't able to watch because I don't have cable. Nastasia was able to watch it and said that I didn't come off like an idiot, which means they must have heavily edited me. No, it was just good. Compared to the rest of the show, you were the best part. Wow, why don't you insult the rest of the show there? Who was on it? How's Christopher Walken? He was on it, right? I only watched until 45. So you missed the you missed the walk. I think I might have. You love Christopher Walken. Everybody loves Christopher Walken. How could you miss the walking? anyway. Maybe some tired. I was tired. My 28 or 29 year old body can't handle staying up till 11 anymore. Tired. Nice. Okay. So, let's get to some of last week's questions while we're at it. Ellie last week had 2 questions. I was only able to answer one of them. This one comes in on spherification, a.k.a. the tiny balls. I use sodium alginate bass for verifications once in a while. I do that based on a recipe from the Alinia book mostly. So typically, mix the food to be spherefied with calcium lactate. This is a reverse spherification. We'll go into that in a minute. This works great and I get no bad taste. But I always wonder why I can't use a straight up calcium that I get from the grocery store instead of calcium lactate or calcium
+
+[3:03] lactate, glucinate. I made yogurt spheres once and they worked great with no additional calcium, anything since the yogurt was already high, without any additional calcium, anything because the yogurt was already high in calcium, is plain
+
+[3:14] calcium not soluble in a food liquid in its pure form. maybe. What is the deal? All right, the deal is, there's a couple of deals. One, for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, sodium alginate is a seaweed derivative, a hydrocolloid, that as soon as you get a solution of
+
+[3:30] it and it touches calcium, it forms an irreversible gel.
+
+[3:35] The downside is, there's 2 downsides. One is that there's three. It doesn't taste very good because it locks in flavor. Two, the texture is not particularly pleasant on its own. And the 3rd problem is, is that if you were to take a flavor, let's say, and mix it with
+
+[3:49] alginate and drop into calcium, it turns solid, you know, very quickly. And once it's solid, it has basically no flavor to it at all. Uh, so, I mean, no good flavor anyway. Uh, so, uh, what Ellie's doing is called reverse verification, where you put the calcium into your
+
+[4:05] flavor and you drop it into alginate and it just forms a thin membrane around the outside. Now, calcium is not extraordinarily soluble in water. Foods that naturally have a lot of calcium in them can be used for reverse verification.
+
+[4:22] So, for instance, uh, olives, uh, typically already, I don't know whether they have natural calcium, but they usually add
+
+[4:27] calcium, uh, to the, uh, brine that they're in to keep them crisp, uh, and that's enough to do reverse verification. So, uh, calciums are basically in, there's a grade of bad taste to, uh, to solubility basically. So the most soluble form of calcium is the worst tasting, and it's calcium chloride. It tastes horrible. You would never use reverse serification for that. Calcium, lactate, slightly better, calcium, lactate, glucinate, slightly better yet. I don't know what the form of calcium is that you can get in the supermarket grocery, but most forms of
+
+[5:01] calcium, calcium carbonate is very insoluble, and you're not going to get very good results. But fruit juices that are doped with calcium, I think, are typically doped with calcium lactate glucinate, and so those would probably work. So the other thing that you need to bear in mind is that the more available, the more calcium that's available in the system,
+
+[5:22] the stronger the gel setting is. So if you need a very strong gel, you need a very hard, fast form of calcium, and that's when you bust out the
+
+[5:31] lactate or God forbid the chloride. If you want a softer gel, you can use a less available form of calcium or less calcium total.
+
+[5:40] So I think you'll notice that the less calcium you have there or the less available the calcium is to the algenate, the softer the gel will be. Uh, and that has to do with the fact that, um, uh, basically the strength of the
+
+[5:52] gel uh, is kind of dictated as it's forming. So it just leaving it longer in a calcium bath will cause more gel to form, but won't make it a
+
+[6:00] lot lot stronger. Anyway, what do you think this does? good job. All right. Okay, now, got some interesting question in on ducks. Ducks. Yeah. Uh, Jacob, uh, Cesney. you can pass it, Cesna. Not spelled like the airplane, the Cessna, uh, the 172 being kind of the
+
+[6:16] hallmark, uh, private aircraft, the Cessna 172. anyway, but not spelled that way. Spell Cesno. I said, good morning, guys. A longtime listener, a 1st time writer. I have a crap ton of questions. By the way, Jacob, I changed your actual wording, which wasn't crap time, but remember, this is now a family show, so we
+
+[6:33] can't curse anymore. Jack. Uh, okay. I have a crap ton of questions, but we will start with a few easy ones. I do a good amount of hunting. and just hit it big on ducks the other weekend. I have breasts from a bunch of spoonies. That's a spoonbill duck, by the way, and have a few teal that I've plucked and vacuum sealed and are waiting for me in the fridge. I already ate some of the spoonies. I butterfly had the breast soap and then rolled them in some housemade guancelli, um, from Avedano's in San Francisco and quickly sear them in a hot cast iron skillet. Guanchale, for those of you not in the know is cured pig jowl. And it's one of maybe the most delicious things you can put on a pizza. do you think? It's some delicious stuff. Mistachi. I could have just said any kind of crazy thing. Nastasia would just said, uh-huh. No, I actually don't like Guonshali, but we don't. don't like Guonchali? Oh my god. Oh, Jesus. Damn. Okay. In San Francisco, and quickly seared them in a hot cast iron skillet. My girlfriend and I had that with some duck liver mousse she made and it was awesome. The moose was on bread and not on the duck rest. Uh, which was probably a good plan. I recently returned from some training at Quantico. Oh, Quantico, huh? Oh, country. Nice. Marines, Quantico's Marines, right? Uh, so I am getting caught up on your old shows. And I heard you talk about upland game and waterfowl. Any tips on cooking the few breasts I have left and the 2 teals. Okay. Uh, now. Uh, here's the deal. So the, a regular duck breast, right, wants to cook anywhere between, excuse me, 57 Celsius, which is about 135 and 58
+
+[8:03] Celsius, depending on how tough the duck breast is. You don't want to over, you don't want to cook one of these things too long. Even on a regular farm raised duck, after a long cooking time, the breasts are going to start losing their texture and they're going to taste livery and gamey. My assumption is if you're doing a wild duck, that that's going to happen a lot, lot faster. But I would try the breasts sous vide at 57. I would try them for, I would try one just to see what it's like. Uh, about 57, uh, 57.5 for about an hour. Cool it down and then sear it off and see kind of what result you get. If it's too tough. You could try going longer, like 2 hours, but you start going to start probably getting a
+
+[8:45] livery gamey taste in it. But I'm really curious as to what kind of results you get out of it. Now, another thing to be aware of. And I'm sure you know this as a hunter, is that the taste of the animal is wildly dependent on what the duck has been
+
+[9:00] eating. This has been known for centuries. So I did some research for you. First, I looked in my after the hunt book, which is John Folse's book on hunting in Louisiana, and he had only one recipe for spoonbill, but it was
+
+[9:15] so like kind of doped up with stuff that I doubt you could taste what the spoonbill actually tasted like. But he made an interesting point. Canvas backs, well known as one of the kind of best tasting ducks that you can get, but he says they probably don't taste as good as they used to because they used to graze a lot on wild celery and basically all of that, all of that is gone.
+
+[9:32] But that led me to more research. I was like, well, what do spoonbills, a.k.a. shovelers, uh, shovel, you know, shovel nose ducks up,
+
+[9:38] eat because what they do is, is they stick their, their big old, uh, you know, beak would beak. What's it called? The what the thing that ducks have. Bill, they stuck their big old bill into the mud and scoop crap up. So there was a study done in um, 1922. Uh, notes on the food habitats of the shoveler or spoonbill duck uh, by uh, W.L. McCatti. And basically, what's interesting about the spoonbill is that it not only eats a lot of vegetable matter, but a lot of animal matter out of the mud in the inside, especially kind of small crustaceans.
+
+[10:11] And so my guess is, is that it's apt to have somewhat of a fishy taste. And so the thing is, is that, can that be made a positive thing, or is that inherently a negative thing? Edward T. Martin in 1918 in Hunter and Trader Trapper, the magazine, makes a note
+
+[10:27] that you can remove the skin of these ducks and a lot of the kind of fishy taste because it's going to be concentrated and the fat is going to be concentrated in the skin. And so if you're having a problem with fishy take taste in a spoonbill, perhaps you can remove the skin and get rid of this. That would be horrible because the skin is obviously one of the reasons why God invented the duck. He also, if you read, go in and read Edward T. Martin's piece on ducks in the 1918 edition of Hunter Trader Trapper on Google, there's a very interesting discussion of rice birds, Carolina rice birds, which are one of my fascinations because it's the
+
+[11:01] bobolink, which is a still extant bird, that used to gorge themselves on
+
+[11:05] rice as they flew south through the Carolinas. And there was such a pest that people would go out and shoot them in droves, but they were incredibly delicious and could be eaten
+
+[11:14] whole, similar to the French Ortolon. And um, I'll just read you one quick passage. I remember this is Edward T. Martin writing in 1918. I well remember how the Carolina rice fields were protected from the ravages of the
+
+[11:27] rice birds by an army of plantation hands. They weren't slaves anymore, unfortunately. Fortunately, great Christ. Jesus, you know what I mean? What I mean is, is fortunately they weren't slaves anymore, but they were still unfortunately held down in the plantation
+
+[11:40] system. There's an excellent book called Black Rice, uh, by uh, what's her 1st name, Beth, uh, what's her name? Something carney. And it's an amazing book on the evolution of the rice plantation in South Carolina, specifically how the rice that was originally raised there was an African type of rice,
+
+[11:59] Glabarima rice. And the actual technology for raising that rice was introduced to the plantation
+
+[12:04] owners by the 1st a charter generation of slaves that were brought over to South Carolina.
+
+[12:10] And then how they got co-opted and ended up, so they started out with kind of a better situation than many of the other slaves on
+
+[12:15] the east coast, and then got progressively worse because the conditions were so
+
+[12:20] awful. After slavery was abolished, the rice plantations continued to exist, but the conditions were still horribly awful. And the only reason that it went away was because, um, it turned out that mechanization couldn't be applied to the Carolina rice fields. Anyway, crazy story. Okay. Uh, you guys know what I mean. Nostasia, giving me the wow on that. I can't believe you're a bad person. You're a low quality human being. Anyway, I well remember how the Carolina rice fields were protected from the ravages of the rice birds by an army of plantation hands armed with muskets and stationed along the levees. The birds, so fat they could barely fly, were given no rest. It was one constant bombardment. I have been in some skirmishes where the firing was no heavier. I guess he was in the war. Very few of the birds were very few of the birds killed were picked up. The object was to save the rice, but those that found their way to market were esteemed as a great delicacy for the table. They were far ahead of any other game I ever ate, not even excepting woodcock. Okay. Okay. And then, um, so that's kind of answered that question. Jacob writes on and says, something to think about because when I get the funds, I'm cooking CV, I'm going to be emailing you a lot of
+
+[13:21] questions. I've been talking to the guys at 4505 meets in San Francisco and the guys have fatted Captain Napa. I'm learning to make my own salumi, and because I like to hunt, I've decided to turn a small in-laws quarter in my backyard into a meat retreat. I'm only 25 and don't have in-laws, and if I did, I wouldn't want them in my backyard like a bunch of vagrants. Jacob, let me tell you something. Once you have kids, if you should have kids someday. You're going to want the in-laws to come over to take care of the kids. Believe me. So you're going to have to convert that back from a meat retreat into an in-law cabin once you have
+
+[13:49] the little ones. So my plan is to put a small U.S. cooler game locker in along with areas to hold my meat slicer and butchering tables. I really want a buffalo chopper, and who doesn't? The big question is, what do you use as a fermentation curing chamber? I was looking in US cooler makes floral coolers, which allow you to control temperature and humidity, but would they work? Just something to think about. Well, I don't know. I was trying to look at a little bit of it. They're mainly meant for flowers, high humidity and cool. If you want to control it more. You can also, it's very easy to build a simple humidity temperature controller
+
+[14:18] for like two, 300 bucks so you could control however you want. I could go into that if anyone's interested later. I don't really have time, unfortunately, today, but it's if you Google humidistat end or humidity control for a couple 100 bucks, you can do it. And also Jacob writes in, based on our recommendation, he got the book of garlic canalians for his girlfriend, she's a science and food
+
+[14:36] nut and has her degree in mechanical engineering. Mickey, love Mickey, Mickey, and Tubble E, my 2 favorite Es. and owns her own small bakery. She thought it was pretty freaking awesome. Thanks for the help. Sincerely Jacob. Should we take our 1st commercial break? All right. going to our 1st work. cooking ishes.
+
+[15:01] Oh, she may be weary. Them young girls, they do get weird. Wearing that same old shaggy dress. yeah But when she gets weary Trying a little tenderness, yeah.
+
+[15:39] You know she's waiting Just and
+
+[15:47] just some painting. A thing that should never, never, never, never, yeah, yeah. Wow, she's there waiting. And without them, try. My little tenderness. A little tenderness, yeah. All right, so, hey, welcome back to cooking issues, Dave Martin, calling you questions two. What is it? 718-4972128. That 718-4972128. Today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds
+
+[16:29] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cooking enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks. Thanks, stocking stuffer. Saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH buffers, or even meat. Why even meat glue? It's like meat glue is weirder than the rest of it. Yeah, well it sounds weird. Okay. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry values your feedback and encourage it. They have now decided to add product reviews to their website. Any customer visits the site to post a review before next week's show. We'll get a free $10 gift certificate good towards the person of anything purchase of anything in the store. Let Chris and Company know what you love or what you'd improve about their products or service and help other customers by sharing your experience. Visit modernistpantry.com for all of your modernist cooking needs. Yeah. Right? That's my new sound effect. You like that? Paper crunching on the mic sounds awesome. Yeah, it does. It really does. Okay. Gave in Norcal writes in on rotisseries and frying. Hey, Nastasia, love the show. You and Dave are great. Thanks for doing it every week. You are welcome. I had a suggestion for a cooking equipment gift for the holidays, as Dave requested at the end of the last week's show. A good quality deep fryer for the home probably can be had at a reasonable price gently used from Craigslist or eBay. I think it's under an underappreciated home appliance. Folks just need to take the plunge, ha ha, and use them, and I'm sure Dave can offer lots of suggestions for home use beyond
+
+[18:04] French fries, right? Well, did you pick a question that I like? Okay, look. For the past 12 years or so, 10, 12 years. I've had, in my home, a professional deep fryer. When I say professional, it requires £35 of oil to fill it
+
+[18:24] up and requires 90,000 BTUs of gas. Now, this sucker can take that £35 of oil, which a little more than 5 gallons and heat it up to frying temperatures in about 5 minutes flat. Now, there is so much, and I got it for 50 bucks, by the way, a Mexican restaurant went out of
+
+[18:41] business down at what the time was the World Trade Center. And I bought it there. And professional deep fryers now almost always have stainless steel kettles on the inside because they're easier to clean.
+
+[18:52] I found an old black steel one. And because nobody wanted it, and because there was a tiny leak in the bottom of the kettle that I had to braise shut, I got it for 50 bucks, and I wheeled it home in a snowstorm, and hooked it
+
+[19:05] up, and it's maybe the greatest thing I own. I love it. Here's the deal. People have a misconception about frying. When you have a large deep fryer like that. The oil lasts a lot longer. The food tastes a lot better, uh, and it's a lot, it's a lot better. It's not like a small fryer, is a smaller version of a real fryer. A real restaurant fryer, especially a gas fired one, tube
+
+[19:30] fryer has what's called a cold zone. So what happens is, 1st of all, the tubes are very large and you have a very large flow, a very large surface area to heat. So you're not locally overheating the oil anywhere. It also starts nice convection currents of oil so that it really heats up very, very quickly, very evenly, has amazing
+
+[19:48] recovery. The other thing is, is that there's a large area below the tubes where all of the little particles from your food that come off settle. Now, in a normal fryer at home, that stuff just sits at the bottom, scorches, burns, and ruins your oil. In a in a commercial fryer, they sink beneath the tubes into a much colder area of oil so
+
+[20:07] that they don't burn and they don't ruin the rest of your oil. They just settle to the bottom. Then at the end of the night, you open it, you drain your oil, you filter it out, you pour it back in, and you're good to go. So your oil lasts a lot longer. Also, there's nothing on, and by the way, a fry every damn thing in that thing. I fry rack of lamb, rack of goat, prime rib, steak,
+
+[20:25] French fries, onion rings, fried chicken. Basically, anything that you want to eat can be fried. The best way to test your oil when you're frying to see whether she's still good or not. And yes, it's a woman, Nastasia. Uh, is to take a piece of neutral bread, fry the bread, and then eat the
+
+[20:43] bread because it soaks up the oil and the bread's very neutral, so it's very easy to test whether you're uh, whether it's gone bad. I've never done eBay or Craigslist, although I'm sure you can. If you live near a major city, you unfortunately have restaurants closing down all the
+
+[20:55] time, and you can get it at auction pretty, pretty cheap. I mean, I used to get all my stuff on auction back before I had
+
+[21:02] kids and my wife still let me bring major pieces of kitchen equipment home before I lived in a tiny apartment. Anywho, okay. And Gabe writes in, while I have you, here's a question for the next podcast, how about rotisserie turkey? I know Thanksgiving is behind us, but I was looking for an awesome roasting technique and thought rotisserie would be perfect if you would get the right setup. Does Dave know of any good spit setup, outdoor wood oven with a side heat source like a wood fired oven? And what are the physics of having that pulse of heat that you get from rotisserie? And is it so good on chicken because it's continually being basted as it turns? Okay, I don't know of a good rotisserie motor, uh, normal, normally. I built one once a long time ago to do a pig, but all rotisserie motors that I've seen, inexpensive ones anyway, are horrible. They suck. And the reason is, is the gearing isn't very good. So if you have a bad rotisserie, what happens is, is you almost never have the meat on a rotisserie perfectly centered. So the rotisserie slows down as it, as it's lifting the heavier side of the, of the meat over the top, then it's,
+
+[22:03] it usually stops for 2nd falls as it goes through the heavier part until the gear catches
+
+[22:08] again and then goes a little faster on the down. So you basically don't have even heating all the way around. It's awful. I don't know why anyone's no one's invested in like a simple precision, like worm gear drive that can't be overdriven. I used one once with a Bodine, which is an awesome little motor. And that thing, that sucker was dead on. Like, I could have swung, you know, I could have swung a piece of meat entirely on one side and it would have spun
+
+[22:32] evenly. Okay. So that said, I don't know the good setup. It's all about, it's all about securing the meat and making sure that it doesn't flop around and that the
+
+[22:40] wing tips or whatever don't fly off and get burnt. And you got to be careful when you're tying it, that your string doesn't catch on fire and come off and the wings get burnt. That said, rotisserie is a fantastic technique, not because of the pulse of heat, but because you're applying a high average, a
+
+[22:56] high, sorry, instantaneous heat on the one side, right? which is making a good skin or a good crust on whatever you're cooking, but a low average
+
+[23:04] heat because you don't enclose it. You know, that's why you don't want to enclose a rotisserie. And enclosed rotisserie is basically an oven with a broiler on one side. Rotisserie is really very akin to low temperature cooking and that you're keeping the average heat input very low. So you're not in cooking the meat. The base, the self-basting helps, I guess, somewhat because it gets a little oil on the outside.
+
+[23:23] But I don't know the actual science of the of the basting and what that does. I probably should, I should research it. But that said, the trick of rotisserie is trying to get the heat input low enough that it doesn't over do too much overcooking of the outside of the meat, but high
+
+[23:38] enough, such that it cooks in a reasonable amount of time. And so that's the trick, but I don't know of a good wood fire would be great. It's just a question of finding a good rotisserie motor. And I think that's one of the things we might build someday. Okay. Okay. What do you mean? He's not paying attention. Okay. Okay. Jason Molinari writes in about deep fried chicken and also wasabi. Jason, I'm going to apologize in advance. I don't know the answer to the wasabi question, but we will put it out to our readers. Keep up the good work with the podcast and Nastasia, keep hammering. You like that? Keep hammering. A couple of questions. I'm trying to figure out how I can low temp cook chicken prior to deep frying and maintain the same deliciousness. Hopefully you can get more deliciousness. Essentially, uh, cook for insurance as you call it. What that means is, is you cook the chicken beforehand, low temp, and then you fry it. And then when you're frying it, you just have to worry about the crust. You don't have to worry about cooking the chicken all the way through. And that's really, really good technique when you want to cook chicken at the same time as
+
+[24:31] French fries, and you don't want to have 2 separate oil temperatures. Okay. The problem is the crust doesn't come out the same with low temp cooking versus regular straight
+
+[24:41] frying. I imagine because I've DNA for some of the proteins in the skin and broken down some of the connective tissue. Have you experimented with a pre-cooked fried chicken, any advice to get the best possible crust slash crunch on
+
+[24:52] it? The main problem seems to be loss of adhesion between the crust and the chicken almost becoming a shell. Okay. Okay, I have the answer for you. I believe, and tell me if I'm wrong. Right in, tell me if I'm wrong. But a lot of people have had this problem. The main problem with adhesion of crust on chicken is because the skin is wet. And when you're cooking something in a low temp, you tend to get a soggy kind of outside of the skin because it's inside of a
+
+[25:21] bag. What you need to do is as soon as you remove the chicken from the circulator, you need to cut it open while it's still blazing hot, put it on a rack and let the skin flash off and form a pellicle on the
+
+[25:33] outside. Okay? This is why after you brine a chicken before you fry it. You typically put it on a rack and let it dry. I mean, I know Carlos here doesn't do that, Carlo, he doesn't, Carlo just takes it straight from the brine and puts it in, but, you know, his recipe, I haven't, I haven't tested with it yet, but it goes against all, all things I've ever known about fried chicken, but it's delicious. So I have to look into it. anyway. So, you want to form a pellicle, and that's going to increase the adhesion, a dry thing. Then you're going to want to go, I do a flower. Then I do my liquid dip, which is a buttermilk egg, baking powder, baking soda, salt, pepper, and then back into the flour. I'm just telling you the steps I use, because if you're using a different kind of a breading technique, perhaps it won't work the same way, but it's all about drying the chicken
+
+[26:15] off and the best way is remove it from the bag when hot, let it dry, on a rack, then bread it, then fry it. And you should get the same kind of quality. And 2nd question, why does wasabi taste so much stronger when paired with shellfish? It seems that when the same quantity of wasabi is put on
+
+[26:31] Ebby, or a fish, Ebby, you know, being sweet shrimp, the Ebby blows my sinuses up. I don't know. You had that experience, uh, Nastasia, that it's stronger on on, uh, shellfish? No, I no, I haven't. no. I don't know. In other words, like, so on the shrimp, he's getting more of a hit than he is on the fish. don't know. I don't know. Well, someone's gonna, someone better write in or something like that. I did some preliminary searches on it, but that's a tough one to search for in the scientific literature. Really is. Uh, that's another one. I tried to put a call into McGee, but he's on a deadline, so he couldn't come in. Maybe next time, maybe maybe for Christmas we can get McGee. You want to get try to get McGee on our Christmas episode? Sure. Okay. Joe from Chicago writes in about tongue tacos and Flan. Hello. I recently tried to impress my girlfriend by making a pumpkin flan in a low temp water bath and completely failed. Oh, that sucks. My approach was fairly simple. I basically applied Douglas Baldwin's approach to crème brûlée to the flam flam custard mixture. Douglas's technique, and Doug Baldwin wrote a sous vide primates on the
+
+[27:36] web, and he wrote a book, and he was working on some of the differential equations with Nathan Mirvold for cooking times, which, you know, our team of experimenters might be interested
+
+[27:46] on that, you know, that are working on that science project. Okay. Douglas's technique basically involves blending the various ingredients, pouring into a bag and cooking for 15 minutes at 180 degrees Fahrenheit. He actually cooks, yeah, I guess, a little higher. Agitate the bag, cook it for another 15 minutes, and then distribute it to a service vessel. I went with a pie pan that I applied caramel crust to the bottom. So he's doing a flan, so he's going to invert it. What I had left was a slightly more viscous mixture with some grain to it that did not improve at all after
+
+[28:13] sitting because Douglas lets his stuff sit in a service vessel for in like a ramekin for like 4 hours to 8 hours to supposedly set up.
+
+[28:21] It did not improve after sitting in the fridge. The result was delicious, but not even close to a flan texture. It sort of collapsed into a pile of porridge when I flipped it on the plate. Do you have any tips for making low temp flan? This technique is way more appealing to me than the traditional oven water bath approach. Okay, so Douglas Baldwin, what he does is he puts all the ingredients for, he basically takes a creme anglaise mixture, by the way, and not like a standard, like a pot de
+
+[28:44] creme or a custard mix for like a flan, right? And then he blends it. And then he puts it into a bag, cooks it, uh, and then agitates it in a
+
+[28:54] Ziploc bag, and then pours it in, hope to say it's set. This is never, 1st of all, he cooks it for 30 minutes. Now, on his, he, you can YouTube, Douglas Ball, and go look at his YouTube and go all the way through it. But he basically, he cooks his custard, his, what he calls a custard anywhere between 175 and 180
+
+[29:12] degrees, 5 degrees Fahrenheit, which is anywhere from a little under 80 degrees Celsius to about 85 degrees
+
+[29:17] Celsius. And he cooks it for half of an hour. Now, I've done many, many, many crème anglaise, which is a very similar mixture in bags in the circulator over time. I think half hour is too long. The longer you cook it, it does start getting thicker. So we'll get thicker, but also the egg taste comes out a lot more. So it ends up tasting a lot more like cooked eggs. The longer you cook it. We try to keep our time between about 15 and 20
+
+[29:43] minutes, you know, in a bag, and we always do 82 degrees Celsius, which is about 181 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[29:52] I think 185 degrees Fahrenheit, which is 85 degrees Celsius is too high. I think it's too high. And I think that the other number he gives 175, which is 80 degrees
+
+[30:03] Celsius isn't going to set in the proper amount of time. So I would definitely do that. He also does his stuff in Ziplocs. And a Ziploc will work at those high temperatures, as he says, but they're very
+
+[30:15] fragile, those temperatures, so you have to be careful. The other problem is, is that if you do a side-by-side taste test of a
+
+[30:20] creme anglaise made in a Ziploc versus a creme anglaise made in a vacuum bag. Then one of the vacuum bag tastes a lot better. And I think it's because the air that's trapped into the mixture, when you're blending it, you're not getting any of that out, and it adds a kind of eggy sulfree taste to it, that you don't get, if you do it in a full on vacuum bag. Uh, is one of the uh, the readers of his uh, YouTube thing said. Perhaps when you're taking the bag out to agitate it so it doesn't form any curds, halfway through the cook, you could crack the bag a little bit and get rid of some of the excess air and maybe that'll fix some of the problem. Uh, you know, because Douglas says when it happens that it's mainly water vapor. And there is, it is mainly water vapor, caused from the increase of heat, but there's also some residual air from when you put it in the blender. Um, okay. The other thing is, is that aside from the fact that I would do a creme anglaise in a vacuum bag and not in a
+
+[31:06] ziploc, if you can help it, um, a a creme brulee, uh, to me, is not done with a stirred kind of custard that way. It's done with a set custard. So I typically use a putt de creme recipe, uh, which is cooked in in a CVAP oven. So it's not agitated at all. In fact, it's completely stationary. And the same holds true for a flan. A flan, unlike a creme brulee, which can be eaten out of the out of the pot, right? And I do mine, like I said, in a CVAP, I'll pour the mixture, the custard mixture into a ramekin, put it in a CVAP oven, which is basically a
+
+[31:41] steam low temperature steam oven. And I'll cook it at the same temperature that I would in a water bath, but without stirring, and it sets up into a nice creme brulee, I brulee it. great. For a flan, you need to add more texture because you have to unmold it. So 1st of all, you can't follow his recipe and use egg yolks. You have to use whole eggs so that you get that extra protein in there to have it set so you can upend it. Now, I've never done this. So I have no idea what this would work, but you might be able to take a ramekin,
+
+[32:08] uh, put or or your pie pan won't work because it's going to explode in the vacuum, but you could probably put it in a ramekin. Uh, I mean, I guess you do it in a Ziploc too. And then put a lid on it and then ziploc it shut underwater and then weight it down so that you're in a water bath, but still in a
+
+[32:25] ramekin. The whole trick is to heat it at an accurate temperature without stirring it. But you're going to have to go longer. If it's not stirred and you're not getting convection with the bag with it moving around. You're gonna have to cook it a lot longer. So, uh, we typically do around, uh, you know, 80,
+
+[32:40] 82, 80, so between, like he does, between 181 and 185 in
+
+[32:45] a steam oven for about 45 minutes in a ramekin, and you should get a good
+
+[32:49] result, and then you should be able to turn it off. So, did that answer that question? Yeah. Okay. 2nd question. I made tacos de lengua, that's tongue, for the same meal, thankfully my girlfriend is as adventurous as I am, and followed Kenji Alt approach.
+
+[33:02] Uh, Kenji Souvides, his uh, taco's tongue for tacos. He suggests 24 to 48 hours at 170 Fahrenheit, which is 76.6 Celsius. So I split the difference and cooked my tongue for 36 hours. The results were entirely too mushy for me, but my girlfriend claimed to enjoy it a lot. What are your suggestions if I'm aiming for a texture that has more bite to it. I was thinking about trying 24 hours at 170. Thanks. Joe from Chicago. Even that is too long for me. Look, when you're cooking up at 76.6 degrees. You're basically doing standard braise temperature. So the advantage you're getting from the bag is only a having to use less liquid so you can have a more intense tongue taste and also probably a slightly higher
+
+[33:42] yield. Uh, but, and, you know, you don't have to make as much too as you would in a traditional braise, so you could do a small amount in a bag. So that's all great. But those temperatures, I wouldn't think you would have to cook it longer than so if a traditional braise was going to be like 4 hours, 5 hours, I would only do it a couple hours more, like
+
+[33:59] six, seven, eight, nine. You know what I mean? Like not that long. Uh, that when you cook something for a long time, it tends to break all the texture down and it can get kind of mushy, as you
+
+[34:09] say. And some people like it that way. I don't. I like a little more texture to it. So I would try a radically shorter amount of time, like 12 or 10
+
+[34:18] and see how that is. And if it's not, you know, great. Then you can, uh, I would put like a tester in a bag, and then have your main bag, and then pull one after 10 hours, see whether you like it. if you like it, go with that. If it's already too much, you have to go less. But I think you'll probably be okay with like 8 to 10 hours at those temperatures. But give me a shot, see what you think. Okay. On the Brian subject, I'm unfortunately going to push that Brian subject off until next week again, because I'm going to try to get a hold of McGee, because I also want to have the argument with McGee on the air about whether brining a turkey causes you to have too much assault in the pan drippings and therefore not being able to use the
+
+[34:54] gravy. And I was thinking about it in the shower this morning while I was washing my hair because I wash my hair every day, which apparently women and men who care about their parents do
+
+[35:03] not. Is that true? Jack? Um, I wash my hair every day. See, that's what I'm saying. Are you not supposed to? That's what I'm saying. Apparently not. I was told that like, I guess we're like regular dudes who wash our hair every day because like we grew up washing our
+
+[35:19] hair every day. you do. Like you go in the shower and the shampoo is there. You use it on your hair to make your hair clean. Yes. Yeah. Well women don't do that. Were you aware of that, Jack? Yeah, women don't do that. the hell, Jack? We have series. Yeah, anyway. Now Nastasia gets to bust out to how they... something every day, right? Yeah, well, don't you ask your ex when you had girlfriends? I don't know. Not about shampooing. Anyway, anyway, it's an interesting fact for those you that don't already know this, but they're like in New York because New York is where New Yorkers, there's a whole subset of men who also apparently care that their hair has a nice shine to
+
+[35:58] it. Supposedly, I guess, a non-grease shine, although I don't know how that works. So they do not wash their hair every day. How the hell are they gonna do that? Oh, I was washing my hair. I was thinking about it. And I think what happens is, is McGee is expecting you to use a broth for your, to reinforce the drippings to make your gravy or to do something. I always make a stock and use the stock as the basis of the gravy and reinforce it with the pan drippings. The stock doesn't have any salt in it. And so therefore, I'm not getting excess too much salt in my gravy. Does that make sense? Anyway, I want to have this argument with him on the air, and so we'll push off the, uh, the, uh, what's it called?
+
+[36:33] Intel until then. Okay, uh, Ken also, uh, Ken Engberg wrote in, and, uh, he says, I want to remind you about the cooking issue I raised a few months ago regarding the lack of research on oxalate content of food. Oxylosis and kidney stones is the problem most recently faced for Thanksgiving, because potatoes have a lot of it. Sweet potatoes are worse. Cook carrots and cooked celery are poisonous to people with this problem, although raw celery seems to be okay for no apparent reason.
+
+[36:57] Cranberry sauce is okay, but almonds are disastrous and the list goes on and on. I more or less made 2 different meals. One that was low in oxalates and one that was normal. As I said previously, oxylosis seems to be a rare disease, but there are plenty of people who have had kidney stones, i.e. my mom,
+
+[37:12] or candidates for them, and the docs often doctors often suggest a low oxylite diet. I'm telling you, if you want to follow a low oxalate diet, good luck. The research and guidance are almost non-existent, much of what is out there on the internet is from unreliable,
+
+[37:25] pseudo-holistic or neutraceutical sorts of people. What charts I have found from hospitals, foundations, and other sites that appear to be reputable are inconsistent and would love to know more and how to accumulate reliable information. So I did a search again, and I went to the oxylosis and Hyperoxyluria Foundation, the OHF, and looked at their list of foods, and sure enough, Ken, is a weird list of foods.
+
+[37:43] And I think the problem is, is there's not intensive research. First of all, like, uh, the oxolate content of a food is is dependent in plant foods is radically dependent upon kind of where it's grown, how it's grown, the conditions it's grown.
+
+[37:56] And so, same with carrots. The calcium content, therefore the oxygen and all that, concentration of the inside of a carrot is widely varied depending on where it comes from and how it's grown, the age of maturity, the variety,
+
+[38:05] et cetera, et cetera. And so because people haven't been doing the research, no one has done the research to try and figure out how to grow something with a predictable amount of
+
+[38:15] oxalate in it, at least I haven't found anything so far. And so when it becomes a big enough deal, perhaps people will try to figure out a way, maybe not to reduce it and everything, but at least to make it
+
+[38:26] consistent so that you're going to know ahead of time what you're going to go on. For instance, a random one you might not think of, you think of oxalic acid when you think of rhubarb, so you naturally stay away from it. But almonds, which have a very high oxalate content, you wouldn't think about it. So it's very, very weird. Secondly, he writes in, to keep Dave abreast with some buzz in the consumer coffee circles. There is a new Breville 900 Excel espresso maker that just became available in the US. The buzz is it because Breville is a major appliance maker. And by the way, Breville is pushing freaking hard. They, uh, they, they gave a bunch of stuff to the French culinary institute. They were at South Beach Food and Wine Festival last year. Noastasia. Remember that? They, uh, were working with Christina Tozi from Milk Bar. They're pushing hard with all of their appliances. Oh, they should sponsor cooking issues. Maybe, yeah, or give us some free crap, at least, something. Anyway. So they're pushing hard. I haven't used a lot of their appliances, although I will say that their their stand mixer that's trying to compete with KitchenAid comes with the scraper paddle blade, which is
+
+[39:22] nice. you know, you don't have to buy an extra one, which I thought was nice, but I haven't used it yet. Anyway, the buzz is because Breville's a major appliance maker and can manufacture much more cheaply. Breville's $1200 machine. Probably competes with regular commercial machines twice the price. Dual stainless steel boilers, variable pre-infusion, manual automatic brew settings, a nice porta filter, really aimed at the budding barista types,
+
+[39:43] um, and, uh, it seems like it has adequate steam pressure. There's not a full review on coffee geek yet, but, you know, what do you think? I looked at a, I looked at a, what's it called? YouTube on it, and it seems okay. You don't really want stainless steel for your boiler. Most people want brass because, well, I guess here's the thing. All the old, all the old, uh, issues people had with espresso machines are really based on what that espresso machine was meant to do and how it was
+
+[40:09] designed. Old espresso machines are designed, to throw away a huge amount of heat and therefore become stable by taking in a bunch of energy and then throwing a bunch of it away.
+
+[40:18] And that's how they gain stability. Now that everything's controlled with microprocessors, That's not the same, you don't need that anymore. So you probably don't need a big brass boiler, stainless steel boiler, probably great, and very sanitary, and all that. It also has a heated head, which means that separately heated head, which
+
+[40:35] means I mean, it could be good. I'd love to try a couple shots with it. Maybe if Breville was one of our sponsors, they could give us one of those machines and we could test it out. What do you think, Jack? Yeah let's do it. Sound like it sound like a good thing? Yes. All right. Now, we're gonna... We do have to wrap up in 2 minutes because we have a one o'clock show. All right, 2 minutes. Two minutes. All right, so we'll leave with this. Listen, calling your questions next week. for Christmas related stuff and for your last minute Christmas shopping. I appreciated the fryer comment. was a good one. Colin wrote in with some typical Colin lunacy, and we'll, I guess we'll end on that. Colin says, dearest David Nastasia and Jack, and Carlos, you know, you got to call it Carlos. Really, Carlos? I don't know, he didn't say that. He just called you out, but I'm saying I'm at it. All right. Here's how I suggest getting a rough number of listeners. I agree that an online poll is a good way to collect data. Something simple like, did you listen to cooking issues, episode 66? Well, did you? Well, did you? Uh, do you regularly listen to cooking issues? Of course, people wouldn't answer that. And then, and then here's the weird one. What do you think of the hyperadvanced civilizations of the future will think when they unearth recordings of this direct that Dave Arnold spews into the
+
+[41:39] universe. Wow. Wow, harsh. Okay. Uh, Okay, here's the thing. He also thinks that what we should do is I should sketch a picture of Nastasia's vegan face, sign it, and then offer it as a prize to a random poll taker. We should sketch a picture of the face she just made after hearing that. Yeah? Yeah. He said, and he says, granted, that price has a bias towards regular listeners who know what a vegan face is. I think even if you don't know, you would got to know that a vegan face can't be a good thing, right? No offense to vegans out there. am I right? Well, Vegans would think it's a nice face. They're probably some nice vegan faces out there. Well, not noastasia's vegan face. No. All right. Vegan face cooking issues.
+
+[42:26] Yeah. Never gonna find a music. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[42:49] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[42:55] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
+
+[43:04] Take it, Mama, I love with the only you, baby.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking and She's coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Today, I'm actually not in Roberta's, uh, in Brooklyn and Bushwick, uh, as I normally am, because for the 1st time in my life, my bike
+
+[0:42] sailed me in a time of need, and my tire, uh, went completely flat in an unreparable way, right as I was off, uh, off the studio, so I'm joining you live from my living
+
+[0:54] room, on a phone. Uh, also not with me today, strangely, is Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because even though this is our holiday edition, uh, she decided to hightail it out to her actual
+
+[1:07] holiday. She's in California with her family right now. So the only person, I don't know if Carlo is there. Carlos is there, but Jack, our intrepid engineer is chilling live in Bush. We had can on the radio show. How do you Jack? Hey, we're both here. Yeah. Oh, hey, hey. So listen, who's our sponsor today? It's modernist cuisine, but I'll have to read that copy, I think. Yeah, you want to do it after the 1st break? Modest country. Yeah, I'll do it after the first break. Modern is pantry, sorry. Yeah, all right, all right. Well, you know, modern cuisine, the great book, and we'll talk about that later. Modernest pantry, the place where you can buy the ingredients you read about in the book. know what I'm saying? Anyway. Okay, so, uh, calling longer questions. 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[1:50] We'll see whether we can juggle me being on the phone and you calling in on the phone. That'll be fun. Okay. Matthew writes in with a granita question. Hey, David Nastasia. I was wondering if you had any advice on making a granita at home without any special equipment, ice cream or
+
+[2:04] sorbet ice cream machine or sorbet makers. I've read a few recipes online, which call for putting the fruit and syrup mix in a pan, stirring it periodically as it freezes. Is there any way to improve on this technique without forking out $4000 for a pocket jet? Uh, the specific granita. I trying to make is blood orange. Thanks. Matthew. All right, well look. The deal with, uh, a granita, right, is that it's supposed to have a grainy kind of a texture,
+
+[2:28] granita, right? So uh, it's not so much of an issue that uh, its texture kind of, kind of is, is not good. I mean, oh, look. I am not a giant huge fan of I have to admit of the granita. Uh I much prefer like a smoother thing like a a sorbet. Um so let's pretend like you want to make a sorbet for a minute. Then I would get uh something if you don't want to spend a lot of money. I would get something like a champion juicer, freeze everything rock rock rock rock hard, and then put it through a champion juicer with a blind plate attached to it, and uh, and you can even do that with, um, you know, like frozen fruits and whatnot, and you can get out
+
+[3:05] the sugar in, and you can get out, uh, passable sorbet, and I guess if you, if you, if you decrease the sugar
+
+[3:10] content. It's gonna be icier and it's gonna have an icier texture and it'll taste more like a granita. The, the periodic freezing technique that they, you, you're using is basically, the idea is you're trying to break up and fluff the crystals as they're forming. Harold McGee is um, very popular, uh, sorry,
+
+[3:25] Tom McGee is uh, very interested in this uh, thing called um, uh, needle ice cream, pin needle ice cream, which is an old, old, old French
+
+[3:33] thing. It's an actual ice cream, uh, you know, with milk and and whatnot in it, uh, cream and fat and all that, but it, it's supposed to have very
+
+[3:41] long, uh, crystals in it, and so you stir it very, very periodically and try to maintain these kind of large crystals. So slow, uh, slow freezing with periodic stirring. It's going to give large granito like crystals, uh, and, you know, basically making with an ice cream
+
+[3:57] machine or blending a sour thing like apoco jet. You're never going to get a pocket jet texture, but you don't want it. a granita texture. So try, uh, yeah. Try either champion juicer or hell, even try and take uh the cubes, blend them and then put them back in the fridge and harden them up a little bit and uh see how that
+
+[4:13] works. Let me know. Let me know what what goes on. I should study grenades more, but it's just not my uh. It's not my cup of tea, although paco jets are amazing. I love them. anyway. okay. Um, Ralph writes in, uh, dear Miss Hammer. Fortunately, she's not here. She can't even listen. She's on a plane right now from, uh, I think she's, she transferred. Check this out. She's decided, right, that, um, that she's the cheapest holiday person in the, in the world, so she's flying out now. It's like 818 connections, right? So it's basically it's taking her like 3 days and 4 nights to get from New York to LA because the number of connections she chose to get because she's so cheap. But even worse than that, she's flying back on MQ Christian, and she's flying back on Christmas day. On Christmas day. Yeah, right? Wow. And it's because they only mentioned this last week because she's so cheap, right? She said, it's because it's what I pay her. But really, it's because she's so cheap. Right? That, uh, that she wouldn't do it any other way. I was like, but you're gonna make your dad drive you after Christmas dinner to the airport. It's kind of crazy, right? Anyway, whatever. I won't talk too much about it because she's not here to defend herself. Not that she ever does, but there you go. Okay. So, uh, Dave recently asked for ideas for cooking related holiday gifts. Perhaps he has recommended favorites for a good values uh thermocouple thermometer. Uh actually Ralph. I uh I don't. I'm not super. I've never had a thermometer where I said. Wow, I love that, you know what I mean? It's uh, I've had plenty of them break um, I've used uh, multimeter based uh, thermometers which are very cheap. Uh I've used you know all those things. I've never been. I've never been super super happy. I mean there'm a couple if you buy a a dedicated therm a couple thermometer
+
+[6:03] they're typically they used to be expensive. They're getting cheaper and cheaper. I mean, X-Tech stuff seems pretty cheap. Uh and it's okay. Um, a lot of the stuff I've had, uh, you know, break. It really depends on on what you need and what kind of a cost uh you're looking for. I mean, the good thing about thermocouple thermometers as opposed to the other type. They're not actually extraordinarily accurate. You have to calibrate them out of the box, but what's nice about them is that you can get loads of different probes. Um, you know, the ones that, that we use uh, to penetrate the bag for sous vide stuff, the hypodermic probes can get pricey. You know, they're, they start at about uh, 80, 60 to $80 and usually run up over, over about a
+
+[6:40] 100. But the good news with one of, with a thermocouple, is that you can go on McMaster, McMaster.com, and just order thermocouple wire and make your own thermocouples. In fact, they have a post on the blog from, like 3 years ago on, uh, making your
+
+[6:53] own thermocouples. really cheap and I I do that a lot, but I have to test a lot of, a lot of different things. If you needed computer uh data acquisition. That stuff has gotten really cheap. I have a uh, uh, you know, a DAQ, digital, whatever it is, acquisition. Blah, blah, blah, uh, from, um, measurement computing, it costs a 150 bucks and puts 8 channels of thermocouples into my computer. Pretty cool. Anyway, another one, a good quality immersion blender. I'm not really happy with any immersion blender, to be honest. I don't have uh, I don't own one of the, the band mixers, although people seem to think they're nice. You know, as many as you have ever met me known. Like one of the things I'm going to be building with a new company that I'm starting uh, with Dave Chang, which is by the way, official now, all the documents have been
+
+[7:38] signed. It's an official company now, it exists. Yeah, uh, that uh, is one of the things I'm going to be tackling because there's a lot to be done out there in the uh, immersion blender world.
+
+[7:48] Pressure cooker. I go with Coon recon. They ask about pressure cooker. I know they're expensive, uh, but I've used in many different kinds, in many different price ranges, and I just like the coon recons,
+
+[7:59] and uh, they've linked to the blog a couple of times, but they've never given me a damn thing. Can you believe that? Yeah. can you believe that? Never give me a damn thing. The number of times I pumped out for them. anyway. Uh, I would use them, and the reason is, is because they're non venting, uh, the pans themselves are fairly high quality. I go in mind and it's been through continuous uh abuse for uh you know years and years and years.
+
+[8:22] I broke off the handle, but it still works like a, like a champ. Um, you know, I don't like the ones that vent because I think that they reduce the quality of uh flavors, things like stocks, although they're fine for some applications. I've used the giant American pressure canners and I just put one uh gave it to the guys
+
+[8:41] at sanbar to use to make a large large large quantities of pressure cooked eggs um but not so good for home use because it's just so dang
+
+[8:48] big. Uh I like the electric of the electric one. I mean, I like the cuisinart one that I have, but exception is that you can't use it out of the box because you have to modify because the
+
+[8:57] temperature is not high enough. For some reason, they decide to set the temperature below the standard 15 psi for a pressure cooker and so I had to go in and modify it again. notes on the blog. Don't, I can't really recommend that you do it because, of course, it's not safe and all that, but anyway, you can see how I did it on the block. Um, for a cream whipper infusion thing. I mean, ISI, look. I know they're expensive, and I have actually done work for them, so you know, you know, everything, uh,
+
+[9:24] above board here, but, I've also used crappy. The last time I was in Colombia, the country, I, uh, I did a demo and they got me some off brand, like whipper to use, and
+
+[9:35] this thing just wouldn't feel right. It was complete nightmare, so, I think it's probably worth the extra money for uh the ISI on that just because I wouldn't think it would be worth the extra money and then when I've used crappy
+
+[9:47] ones, they've leaked on me, um, vacuum sealers. I mean, I like the mini pack, the small one, if you have the $1500 to spend. I go ahead and get the mini pass because it's got the nicest chamber size of any
+
+[9:59] vacuum uh machine in its class, but still, that's like you're forking out between 1500 and 22 grand for it. Um, but you know, mm, there you have it, um, and digital scale is the last one. It's a tough one on a digital scale because everything depends on what you want or need.
+
+[10:17] Uh, you know. So the question is, if you're gonna do hydrocoloid work, you should be able to measure something down to the 10th
+
+[10:23] gram, because occasionally that's gonna come up, right? But then on the other hand, if you do a lot of work with meats, you're gonna want something that can weigh many kilos.
+
+[10:30] Now, I have an old scale, uh, from, you know,
+
+[10:33] that bar of eBay that was, you know, kind of like a, it's a weird scale. It does 12 kilograms by the 10th gram and plus it's a counting scale, the thing is sick, but the problem with it is, uh, it's very slow, and if you wanted something with similar
+
+[10:46] capabilities, today, you'd have to spend 1000s of dollars on something that had multiple balance
+
+[10:50] ranges, so you could go do small amounts of large amounts. Um so what I would do instead is just get a good quality wash down scale. There's some waterproof scales, uh from A and D. I haven't used them. I don't know whether they're any good but that's a really nice feature. You can throw the dishwasher, they claim, and they get a get a large one for things like meats, and a small one. Uh things that bother me about scales is when they turn off. I like a scale that plugs in and stays on forever. This way, if you're measuring stuff uh into a container and you walk away, uh, and you come back, uh,
+
+[11:22] and you still have your measurement, which is great if you forgot something, or if you're called away for a minute, or if somebody catches on fire on the
+
+[11:29] stove and you have to walk away and look at it, you come back. You don't want to have to reweigh the thing that was partially weighed in there. So I hate a scale that turns off anyway. Uh, just my, not specific brand recommendation, but just, what I would look for, all right, so, uh, a couple of weeks ago, you know, there's
+
+[11:45] an, ongoing, uh, Jack, is it high school project? It's high school right? The high school project on uh temperatures? I think it was a high school project. yeah. Yeah, high school anyway. So I mentioned this program, the sous vide dash, which is basically an iPhone, iPad application that allows you to, uh, uh, check what temperature, um, you know, something's going to be, depending on its, uh, what it
+
+[12:07] is on the temperature of the water bath, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, the guys wrote back Uh, they heard that I mentioned it, and so they said this, uh, thanks for your mention on the show a couple of weeks ago. I was looking for suggestions on how to make our application even better, and I think your suggestion about not changing temperature settings when the food has changed is a good one. It's actually something we've gone back and forth on. So, basically, the, the problem is, is that, there's all these parameters, and if you change one, like, hey, instead of changing it,
+
+[12:32] like, and maybe I didn't want to cook chicken, but I want to keep the water back the same. I want to cook fish or something like that, not that you'd ever change some chicken fish. I mean, whatever, but it just changes all the things anyway. Some users like you want to do a lot of exploring and toggle all kinds of settings one by one. I always want to pick uh chicken fish or whatever and have the app give them a reasonable starting point for temperature. Blah blah blah like you. I personally tend to be the tinkering type, but a lot of our users have told us that
+
+[12:55] they, they want to start with uh normal settings, but that doesn't stop us from trying to figure out how to please everyone. I think we may do an up uh upcoming update that has auto temperature selection on food disabled if you've gone into the
+
+[13:06] advanced and allow any temperature mode. Anyway, they thank us for spending the $5 which you really should because I am a cheap cheap bastard. It could get me to spend five dollars a very difficult thing to do uh and they give a PS. Uh I put together a blog post and a video on the fast cooked methods for eggs and a circulator and uh if you go to cv dash dot com and look at it, they want to know what I think about it. Well, I'll tell you what I think. So what we're talking about here, for those of you that don't know what the hell I'm talking about, is uh, an emergency circulator, which most of you know, is a, is a device that keeps water at a very accurate
+
+[13:36] temperature, and the reason you want to do, there's a couple of reasons you want to do that. But one reason is you can achieve, um, textures or, or temperatures all the way through, uh, a piece of food, and uh,
+
+[13:47] and uh, that allows you to achieve textures that you couldn't otherwise achieve. For instance, on eggs, right? The difference between a 62 degrees Celsius egg, right? Which is runny. That's a poach egg, right with a very kind of custardy soft white and a runny uh yolk. The difference uh between that and a fully set egg yolk, but still very creamy. It's only 2 degrees, 64 degrees Celsius. So the window is very, very small, right? And in a large uh chicken egg. Right? I tend to cook them for one hour, right? So at one hour, I know that the inside of the very inside of the
+
+[14:22] oak has gotten up to the, basically up to the temperature of the bath, and I can pull the egg out, and I'm done, right? And that's the typical thing, but a lot of people, there's 2 things that are going on. One, some people don't want to wait around for, uh, the eggs are cooked for an hour because they're inpatient weasels. I don't know why anyway. Uh, and the other thing is, perhaps you want a farmer egg white, then given with those, uh, 62 degree eggs, for instance, or 63 degree eggs, which is where most people are cooking. Well, I did a bunch of charts like 667 years ago, something like that, uh, that showed what happened if you used a small temperature belt. So, for instance, um, take, uh, set your bath at 65 degrees Celsius, right? and then put your egg
+
+[15:07] in, and put, like, we put, like 10 eggs in, and we pulled them, um, every couple of minutes and looked at them, and found that you could, in fact, get a, uh, uh, an egg
+
+[15:20] right, that was like a 65 degree egg, which was our favorite, at the time, right? And a yoke that was very similar to a 63 by timing things very exactly. These guys have uh gone wrapped up even further and used like a 70 Celsius or 77
+
+[15:36] Celsius. I forget, uh, water bath, and they're cooking the egg for only 18 minutes, and
+
+[15:41] the idea is to get a kind of runny textured yolk. All right, here are my issues with the with the technique. One. Timing now is very, very important. So, if you have a particular water bath, and you're only putting in, like, 4 eggs for you and your spouse, let's say, then uh, it's gonna work fine because you're gonna do it the same way every time, right? So even though there's carry over heat, and the temperature of the egg yolk is going to go up a little bit, and the outside of the egg yolk is cooked a little bit more than you'd want, uh, and the inner sides, you know, a little under whatever, but that's all
+
+[16:13] going to be frying because you can do it the same way every time. The problem from a restaurant point of view is if you're doing 100 eggs. It's very, very hard to make sure that all the variables are the same every single
+
+[16:26] time, because a circulator, right, going at a 1000 rots, is never going to be powerful enough to come back up to temperature right away if you drop a huge uh batch of eggs into it,
+
+[16:37] right? So this is a technique that's mainly meant for smaller batch cooking. Now, on the super flip side, it's become very popular in high end restaurant circles to go with, uh, uh, boiling water,
+
+[16:48] right, because they wanted. traditional, overcooked, rubbery, white on the outside and our creamy center. And so what these guys are doing, is they're basically saying, hey, look. There's one temperature that I know I can maintain hardcore, screaming boil, and they can put it
+
+[17:04] in, and they time it very exactly, and then you can do more batches because, um, it's fairly easy to maintain a super high consistent
+
+[17:13] temperature because you're just slamming the, the heat into the water and boring it as hard as you can. Uh, so anyway, these are 2 2 different ideas, but uh, those are my thoughts. So with that, why don't we go to the 1st commercial break? Call your questions, 2 718-497-2128, that's 718-4972128, cooking your juice. Santa Claus. Go straight to the ghetto. Hitch up your end here. Go straight to the ghetto. Santa Claus. Go straight to the ghetto Feel every stock and you buy. The kids are gonna love you so, uh. Leave a tour. But, Johnny. Leave a dog for Mary. Leave something pretty but darn it. And don't forget about gearing. Santa Claus? Go straight to the ghetto. Santa Claus. Go straight again. Get him, James Bronson, you. Wow. Wow, Jack, good call on the James Brown. I have a James Brown Christmas album. Yeah, that's awesome. Have you heard the entire James Brown Christmas album? I think there might be several. I have one. And at the end of the song, he starts screaming. It's called something like, you know, Merry Christmas, Christmas time, at the end of it, he's screaming about
+
+[18:54] how, he, he loves all the sands because they bought his record, and it's all a show. Bro, my random show, like that. I mean, he says like 18 times at the end how he's so thankful for all the people that bought his
+
+[19:07] record and sorry show. Wow. So I remember sitting like, I have it in the Christmas rotation, and you know, uh, and we're sitting around,
+
+[19:16] and, you know, it's like, you know, being fired and all this stuff, and all of a sudden, James Brown just comes in and starts screaming about Merry Christmas, Christmas time, you know, all
+
+[19:23] this is awesome. Good, good business. Oh yeah. I didn't think anyone else listened to the James Brown Christmas. Cheers to the James Brown Christmas. Uh, oh, sorry, you gotta read the uh, promo, yeah? Oh, actually, keep going. Alright, I'll keep going. Hey, anytime you want, just brother, we'll get the promo. Okay, make it up. What are they giving away this week? Not sure. Not sure. We'll handle it later. Okay. So, Aaron writes him with more suggestions on uh, vacuum machines,
+
+[19:48] cheap, because everybody, look, everybody knows, everybody wants a inexpensive vacuum machine. Everybody wonders why, like chamber vacuum machines cost $8 billion. I'll tell you why. Run, they don't make that that many of them. That's one. 2 There's a lot of stainless steel on them because they're stainless steel, like restaurant grade, and 3, all the good ones have very expensive vacuum pumps in them, right?
+
+[20:14] And the company that makes, uh, the majority of vacuum pumps for commercial vacuum machines, company called
+
+[20:19] Bush, out of Germany, and the pumps are just really, really, really solid, and a good chunk of the money you're spending is actually for the pump, and, you know, if you buy a crappier, they're, they're very good in that they can withstand a lot of contamination in the, uh, in the
+
+[20:36] oil because of the, uh, vapor that you're boiling, the, uh, liquid that you're boiling off of your, uh, product as you're vacuuming it, et cetera, et cetera, without braking, and they're
+
+[20:45] just Like, you know, they're the tonka trucks of assuming tonka is still good. I have no idea maybe tonka's crap now, but they're the tonka trucks of, uh, you know, vacuum pumps for that kind of, uh, an application and they just cost a lot of money, right? And so, everyone's going around looking for for cheaper alternatives. I've used refrigeration vacuum pumps and they're okay. They eventually fail, um, but, uh, yeah, everyone wants super cheap. We all know, much as I, actually, I've met them. They seem like nice people. People would make the food saver. We all know that the vacuum is kind of weak. Well, there's another contender out there. Uh, the Ziploc, you know, from uh, S.C. Johnson, S.C. Johnson wax, I believe, is a corporation, they make a little vacuum sealer, and Aaron writes in and says, is the bank thing any good? I went on the Amazon, and it's, it's available now for like 6 bucks. You can buy it for like 6 bucks. Uh I don't know. I don't know whether it's any good. I've never tried it. It's never gonna be a good enough vacuum to, uh to, to use for uh, you know, doing uh vacuum infusion, things like that, which is what I mainly and why the vacuum for. I mean, I'm sure it's really really good for bagging a muffin without crushing it, so you can throw it in a freezer in an individual
+
+[21:58] Ziploc, and not get a weird freezer burned around. I mean right now I do that with a straw for anything else. I just use ziploc bags and uh, dip them in water as I back and I get uh, very good results with no leaking. So, I mean, tell me how it works,
+
+[22:14] and when you get it, or if anyone else has extensive experience with the Ziploc vacuum, uh, write in and, and tell us. Hey Dave. What did you say? Did you know today's show was sponsored by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook? Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has the solution? They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around 5
+
+[22:45] bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask, Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, modernist pantries, your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry values your feedback, and to encourage it, they've now added product reviews to their website. Any customer who visits the site to post a review before next week's show will get a free $10 gift
+
+[23:14] certificate good toward the purchase of anything in the store. Let Chris and Company know what you love or what you'd improve about their products or service and help other customers by sharing your experiences. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all your modernest cooking needs. You tell them, Jackie. No, we never met those guys. Did they ever come by the station ever? Anyone ever meet them? We should hang out with them sometime. Where the hell are they located anyway? It's a great question. And we'll figure it out. You figure it out, you tell me. Alrighty. So it's still time to call in your holiday related questions too. Someone 8172128 that's 718-4972128 pay for writes in about fish. Hey, David Nastasia, first. I'm a big fan of the show in the show soundtrack. That's all Jack nowadays, by the way, Pedro. I rarely make any request. Nostalgia can't be bothered. She texting on the phone the whole time, so it's pretty much all Jack. I right? It's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If any of you ever want the pleasure. You should really come on any Tuesday and launch Nastasia's vegan face while she is
+
+[24:12] texting away and uh giving me dirty looks and you can be
+
+[24:17] served pizza by Indie Jesus, who's actually changed his garbage. More wild rust Jesus the last time I saw him. Have you seen him today, Jack? You're not there anymore. Uh, okay. So, uh, Pedro the fish. Sometimes when I buy. Sorry about that, Dave. We have a caller. extremely small. Hey, Dave. We have a caller. All right, we'll cut back to Paige. I'll get back to you one minute. Call her around the air. Hey, how's it going, David? Brian. Hey, Brian. Hey, um, wanted to let you know I got back from my trip and I got through customs. Um just fine. I got my spices. I got some, uh, some dried meats, from, from my trip, um, so thanks for the, thanks for, uh, the, the tips
+
+[25:00] or, or you didn't really have any, you said, just go for it and see what happens. Right, and nothing happened to you at all? No, there was a little, there was, uh, I, I, I, I went through Newark and there was a little dog, one little dog that was sniffing, sniffing around,
+
+[25:15] but, uh, the dog didn't, didn't sniff my stuff, or at least I didn't see the dog, except my, my, my stuff, and I just went right through. No problem. Was it meat vacuum packed? It was vacuum packed? I think that I think that's the key. Yeah, I have bad luck with little dogs. I'm more of a big dog guy. Yeah, yeah. Well, me too. but in this case, I, I got, I got lucky. So what do you speak back if you don't mind telling me? Um, I got, I got some of those, um, Omani or looming what they're called, the, uh, some of those dried limes. Um, I got some, um, some, some dried hipsop, uh, you know, wild hipsop, and uh, some, some wild sage, and um, I got, got some, uh, what, what looks like the, um, the pasturma,
+
+[26:02] and um, uh, also some, uh, some other dried sausages. Well, I'm glad I'm glad you made it. Did you write it on your declaration form? I didn't. So that my mother and friend, I believe, I forget who was on the show when we were talking about it, but, uh, they all basically write it on the form. This way, if they're caught, they can say, well, I wrote it on the form. I just didn't, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, you really did look out on that one. Yeah, I, I, I did. So maybe, maybe, you know, next time I'll write on the declaration form. I, I did bring some cheeses back from Quebec that we're, we're vacuum sealed, uh, the,
+
+[26:43] last time, but, um, you know, coming from Canada, they don't, they don't, they don't care and
+
+[26:47] check, quite as much as I, I think, from some other countries. No, apparently going to Canada, the customs can be brutal. This is very weird. I don't know, look, my son who's uh 9, I apologize for bringing this up, but no, the
+
+[26:58] actually not the 9 year old, the uh 6 year old, he uh, has gotten into comic books, and did you know that there was a guy arrested for uh, having a Japanese uh,
+
+[27:07] manga, uh, cartoon comic book, and he's uh, from America, and he's facing a year in prison, because they deemed the comic book to be uh, child
+
+[27:18] pornography. Strange huh? Wow. Yeah, there's an American dude chilling in a Canadian jail right now because of
+
+[27:26] a comic book. Because of a Japanese comic book. Yeah, because of a Japanese comic book. Yeah, right. So he got he got dinged with child pornography possession. Apparently, Canadians hate, look, it's not my style either, but apparently, Canadians hate, right? Uh, uh, that style of comic books. The customs officials do. I mean, the Canadians themselves, maybe they love it. I don't know. Anyway, I thought I'd mention that. Weird, weird fact. All right. Okay, so yeah, no comics for me. But while I'm here too, I got 2 questions. One is, why don't you guys give a little, little west coast love and uh, play some power of power occasionally. Yeah, can we do that for her? Sorry, yes, definitely. Love tower power. I saw her in with Ray Charles like 15 years ago. Really? Wow. What an opportunity. Yeah, that sounds cool. Um, but I got, I got a cooking question here for you. Um, so it's, um, it's citrus season and I want to make some of my own, own marmalades with um, the grapes, uh, grapefruits. We we have out here. Um you got any tips? For how to make marmalade? Marmalade. yeah We got great citrus. It's the time of year right now. Well, I mean, the real question is how much of the bitterness of the peel do you want in, right? I mean, that's the main thing. I mean, so what I would, I would do, is I would separate the flesh out from the from the uh rind, right, and then treat them separately, and then um, you
+
+[28:55] know you could do the, you could do the. Hey, if you were real, if you look, it depends some people they actually like the the albedo, the right part to be in there a little bit,
+
+[29:03] uh, and some people like uh, more of that bitterness or less of that bitterness, but if you wanted to be, if you wanted to make the world's most baller marmalade, like seriously straight up baller
+
+[29:12] marmalade. What I would do is uh, peel, the uh, peel them, right? Uh, carefully, uh, like score and peel them off, then soak the uh, peels in a solution of
+
+[29:25] pectinex, SPL, and water, which you get can, you can buy that apparently now at modernestpantry.com. I've never tried. I have my own supply. But anyway, uh, you soak them in like 4 grams per liter of that stuff, and um, then you take a, a tooth, a toothbrush
+
+[29:38] or a, a scrubby, and you just wipe all the arbita off, gone. Then you can sliver the peels and they're perfect, but they can be long. So normally you can only get thin slicing of perfect peel that way, but you can get kind of like,
+
+[29:51] like larger sips. You can make them whatever is going to taste good in the marmalade, uh, and then, you know, cook. You can, then you can blanch them if you want, if they're too bitter for you, but they probably won't be, uh, bitter, that is, and then, um, you can, um, make your, the marmalade, uh,
+
+[30:05] base separately, and then fold in the, uh, peel afterwards, that kind of ball, right? That sounds pretty good, but the question would be, you know, when you use the enzymes, doesn't it take away some of the
+
+[30:15] packing, which gives, makes the marmalade thick. Right. Yeah. Well, the question is, so I'm gonna have to add pecking back in separately, you know, from the, you know, like from the box. Yes, you could do that. Um, I haven't thought about how much pecting you'd be removing, but you're gonna boil the, you're gonna boil the citrus
+
+[30:38] down, and the question is, is there enough in just the regular pump without the albedo to do it for you? I would bet there is, but if not, you can always build it with a little bit of pectamine, that's where they get it from. You know what I mean? Like they get it from the citrus peel, either that or from apple, so like most of the commercially available peck do we get to either citrus or apple? I mean, but if you want, I mean, like it's worth getting the extra. I mean, I wouldn't feel bad because no one's gonna know how you did it. You know what I mean? It's gonna be sweet. Mm, okay. Sounds like, uh, I gotta get my hands on some, some, uh, pack next here. Yeah, yeah. It's a good start and plus, you know, then you can use it for the French fry recipes. Use it for clarification. I know that most of the clarification stuff that I have, uh, requires a centrifuge, but I'm working on a new technique. I read a paper. On a technique called electro flotation, and just location in general, where they basically make a little electrolysis set up, and they throw it in the bottom of a, a,
+
+[31:34] a, a vat of, of stuff that's not clarified, and then you turn on the electricity, and it makes tiny hydrogen bubbles, and the tiny hydrogen bubbles float up, and as they float up, they carry the
+
+[31:45] stuff, all of the, uh, impurities with it. So you could dope it with SPL, and then you can clarify liquids with uh with hydrogen bubbles. I haven't tested it yet. I built a rig, but I've been so damn busy. haven't tested it yet. Wow, that sounds cool. And that'll be a home setup I can do? Yeah. So I'm thinking that, I don't know whether I could commercialize that to the new business, especially because the people who wrote the paper might already have
+
+[32:09] the patent down on it. I know, but it's definitely the kind of thing where, you could probably build it for pretty cheap. If it works, you could probably build it for braid cheap. I mean, the trip would look for a flotation is tiny, tiny, tiny bubbles, so for instance, um, I was wondering, could you just take an aquarium pump and do it, but the problem is the bubbles in an aquarium pump, even with those little centered
+
+[32:29] stones, is just too, the bubbles are too large. So the question is how to make tiny, tiny bubbles. And that's why um, electrolysis is good because they use very thin wires. They basically, they use that, uh, the, the one that they used in the paper that I read was carbon,
+
+[32:45] like uh, graphite, carbon, not graphic, carbon, uh, rods, and uh, a stainless steel top, and
+
+[32:51] the stainless steel. I was just there producing the hydrogen, and these very, very fine wires, and those very, very fine wires made a very fine bubble size, and
+
+[33:01] so it didn't really disturb. You don't want turbulence. You just want lots of little bubbles rising. But with the aquarium pump, can't you just put on a, uh, a thinner filter? Well, it's, it's possible. I mean, the thing is, in in one of those, what's happening is the bubble generation is happening from the holes, right? And in in the in the mesh, the bubble generation is happening from the wires itself. So, uh, the, the, the problem is, is could you, could you get holes in, uh, in a porous medium that, uh, aren't
+
+[33:36] going to cause bubbles that coalesce right away. You know what I'm saying? Whereas with wires, very fine wires can be spaced far enough apart to prevent immediate coalescence of the bubbles. I think that's the only one bubble each that kind of comes off of each one of those
+
+[33:49] wires as opposed to, you know, with the aquarium, but it's a group of bubbles which collide into one another and form larger bubbles.
+
+[33:55] Right. I think you want like a constant, just upflow of gentle, tiny, tiny bubbles for this thing to work. And if you look up on the web, you can look up. Uh, uh, you know, if you have access to the, the scientific stuff,
+
+[34:08] elect, electro flotation is the technique. Electrophortation. All right. And uh, can I keep on? I'm still looking for things that people can do if they don't have a sitterfusion. Yeah, that's an expensive idea. Yeah, and space. Run? I don't have the space. Yeah, exactly. So, so, this one, I'm trying to build one in one of those, uh, you know, you go to
+
+[34:34] Suratab and you buy one of those things that's meant to, to, uh, uh, store pasta. I'm trying to build it in one of those, see what it works. Very narrow kind of contain round container. Yeah, narrow, right? And uh, and just you drop it in the bottom and you, you know, I, like, it's gonna take a bunch of tests, like, that's, that's the kind of thing that, if I still
+
+[34:55] had the intern program running at the FCI. I would just have someone do it, but since, um, you know, not there every day. I don't have that program running anymore, so I don't have anyone that can do any testing when I'm not there. You know what I mean? So it's just, I sat next time. Oh, is, is the school selling Pecanex anymore? Yeah, I believe that Irvey Malivore, uh M A L I, V E R T, uh, so it'll be H Malivore at
+
+[35:19] French culinary dot com, and he, he still has it. Yeah. I just saw it there yesterday. Oh great. All right. Thanks, Dave. Happy holidays. Happy holiday, thanks for calling in. Jack we go to our 2nd commercial break? Yeah, let's do it. All right. 718-497-2128 718-497-2128.
+
+[35:43] Five long hips. We have been together. Your love and understanding has brought us to stormy weather. I must admit, girl. I haven't always been good But you stuck by me just like you said you would. Hey, I know That enough is enough. But you shouldn't be talking about. Give it up, girl. Turning loose. Might be right as soon. The wrong decision, we'll sparkle on a dream. If you don't want, the spot I sleep between. Don't change horses in the middle of a stream. That would be an extremely bad call to change your horse in the middle of a stream. Extremely bad call. At least, you know, if you're actually fording a stream. Of course, if the horse was sinking and drowning you, right? Like if the horse was literally dying and sucking it down to the bottom of the river instead of swimming, then maybe
+
+[36:57] a good idea to chase the horse in the middle of the stream. Maybe the only choice. Yeah, so, I mean, I think like that phrase, like, you know, don't change, blah, blah, mint, should be, uh, unless, uh, that change is going to prevent you from
+
+[37:09] dying. Of course. Yeah. If the horse is actually worse than no horse at all. Man changing course is a pretty good idea. You know, it's one of those things. anyway. But, you know, I mean, I understand. You don't get rid of a marginally okay horse. Like if there's like a stellar horse next to you swimming and you're like, man, that horse is a badass and mine is only, you know, kind of okay,
+
+[37:29] then, yeah, stay on the okay horse. know what I'm saying? absolutely. And whenever I think of this, I always, I don't know, I shouldn't, I'm not going to get into politics anyway. won't get into politics on the show. Okay, do it. Okay. So back to Pedro and his fish question. Uh, by the way, uh, anyway, so, we're gonna have one more song going on, right? You gonna get us one really awesome holiday song for the for the outro. That was Tower of Power for the last caller. Yeah, but you got it for the last, on the way out, are we going to play like some hardcore Christmas stuff or what? Oh yeah, definitely. Okay, cool. All right. I'm excited to hear what you what you have. Anyway, Pedro and his fish. Okay. Sometimes when I buy fish, the flesh is extremely soft and the tissue looks like it's falling apart. I know it's not because the fish is old. I know how to judge freshness pretty well and I buy my fish from a small fisherman's co-op. only sells that day's catch. Also, this seems to happen much more frequently with Atlantic mackerel and bluefish. Do you know why this happens and how to avoid it? I know the fish are caught using nets and not blood out, so could this be related to rigor mortis? Well, Pedro, I bet it is because, I mean, we've had a discussion before, but everyone who grew up in the
+
+[38:35] northeast and like hung around with people that fish know that back in the day, uh, people didn't like bluefish so much because it didn't
+
+[38:42] keep and it kind of went south fast and the fishes became mushy and whatnot. It's because blues, I don't really know that much about mackerel. The blues are vicious, you know, fighting strong fish, like when blues are
+
+[38:54] running, uh, when blues are running, right, uh, close to the shore, you know, bathers have gotten like bites taken out of their
+
+[39:01] legs. The balloons are vicious. why when you're fishing for blues, you use like a steel, uh, you know, steel leader on it, and, and, and people like fishing for blues, because they have such
+
+[39:10] a good fight, so, for their size. So, I would bet that they go into a really really hard rigger, and that that hard rigger is ripping apart the, uh, you know, some of the structure of the muscle, muscle, and it's
+
+[39:23] getting, uh, mushy. Uh, and I know we had a, um, a listener, and for some
+
+[39:29] reason, his name just went straight out of my head, but we had a listener who ran some preliminary tests on bluefish by doing
+
+[39:35] Ikigime, where they, uh, we do the spinal cord destruction, and you bleed them out properly, and so that the fish were in a side by side. Now he only did one or 2 samples, but the side by side, the bluefish was significantly better. Uh, i.e. summer, uh, when it was killed using, uh, the Japanese techniques that, you know, uh, uh, fall under the, under the heading of
+
+[39:56] Bikachime, fish killing techniques. Um, and that's because, as we said many times, on fish, they swim extremely strongly, they go into a hard rigor, if you take a needle and shove it through their spinal cord, uh, it stops the messages from going from the spinal cord to the muscles, and therefore, preserves ATP, which is the energy the muscles
+
+[40:14] use to contract, and therefore, delays rigor, and then delayed rigor is a softer rigor. Anyway, so I would bet that that is what's going on. I don't know much about the mackerel. Uh, I mean, other than I like to eat mackerel. I don't really know much about them from a fishing and swimming
+
+[40:30] perspective. So, I, I do know that they suffer some of the same problems of, uh, that all
+
+[40:37] orally fishes, uh, suffer in terms of, uh, enzymatic activity. They can be mushy if they're cooked at low temperature, because the enzymes in them, not only do the muscles themselves get broken, but the enzymes in the fish keep
+
+[40:49] working, uh, proactively, uh, while it's being cooked at lower temperatures and so they can turn mushy. I know certain species of mackerel have that problem uh very much. So anyway, so I don't know whether that's also playing into a part of it. It's never really listed in the uh, those enzymes aren't resisted in uh, the bluefish because it's only been recently that people have appreciated the
+
+[41:10] delicious, delicious bluefish. I love bluefish. Uh I think more people are liking bluefish Jack. You feel more people are liking blue fish now? Yeah, I hear more about it lately. Yeah, good stuff. I mean, you either like it or you don't. I like it. Anyway, okay. So our buddy, Christa, from poly science. The people that brought you, the immersion circulator, calls in about butternut squash, wrote in. Hello, Nastash. I hope all is well. I'm glad you've caught up the last few radio shows on iTunes. I have a question I can't find a good answer for maybe Dave knows more about it. I've observed that when I cut butternut squash. My skin feels like it is dried out. It's quite aggressive, and I'm not sure if it is actually dehydration or something else. I'm also not clear about the liquid pearls that collect on the butternut squash
+
+[41:52] surface, uh, after a few minutes, instead of the attached picture, but I don't have it. Sorry, Christoph. I have the picture. How does it happen that it collects in pearls like that? Is that liquid responsible for this dehydration? I wonder if this liquid is used in any products like cosmetics have a great holiday season. Okay. So I went on my scientific uh web search engines that I steal and uh typed uh butternut squash and then a host of other things and I couldn't find anything
+
+[42:17] specific. Except, uh, there are certain people that get what's called a, uh, a protein contact dermatitis, uh, from many things,
+
+[42:26] uh, one of them being butternut squash. So it is known that there are certain people that have uh skin sensitivity to uh butternut squash. I was doing more research, and butternut squash, are part of a larger group, including cucumbers and all other squash and melons and stuff called cucumbers, and um, they have, uh, can have, um, lots of crazy things, uh, flowing saps and whatnot, flowing through the flowing, which is in the stems, but also, I
+
+[42:56] think, uh, to some extent, they can have stuff flowing through, uh, the, the fruits themselves, and I believe they would concentrate somewhat towards the skin side of it.
+
+[43:06] Now, uh, I was able to find some strange sugar components that are in pumpkins, um,
+
+[43:12] and and other, uh, strange kind of defense stuff, but nothing definitive. I would guess that if your hand is drying out like that, like the same way it does, for instance, if you're
+
+[43:21] shelling a lot of shrimp, that you're getting some sort of, uh, either protein,
+
+[43:26] rural hydrocoloid that is, uh, basically not dissolving away on your hand and drying fairly quickly into a foam.
+
+[43:34] That's what I'm guessing, but I would love to hear if anyone knows anything more about it. I wasn't able to do it, reading the 1st, you know, 10 to 15 papers where I typed in, you know, uh, sap and or latex and or, uh, hydrocarloid or dermatitis, and butter and squash and or acutribit,
+
+[43:54] but it's an interesting thing, and it's a known fact. I mean, I found uh, an egolet, uh, you know, link with someone, and there's someone on the ego thing, say, It's a starch. It's not starch. Starch isn't going to do that to you, but um anyway, it's an interesting question. It's got to be some lacky hydrocarloid or hydrocarloid protein mixture uh that's coming out of there so anyway. We'll look into it more. Or, you know, it's one of those things where, uh, I'm going to have an answer for you in a year and a half because I'm going to
+
+[44:20] meet, someday, I will meet the butternut scratch scientist and I will ask them what the hell the deal is, and they'll tell
+
+[44:27] me anyway. Gabriel writes in. I hope this is the correct email address. It is, um, this question relates to an absurd, the absurd price of soft rentals, uh, it's actually not a thing I want. Uh, well, because he says he doesn't cook at that level, but Gabriel, once you own one of these, and by the way, I saw a funnel that we're talking about, saw a funnel soft gun, is basically a funnel, preferably metal, that has a little stick in the center of
+
+[44:49] it that you lift up, and stuff comes out of it, and it's one of those things that, yeah, you don't need it, but man, are those things
+
+[44:56] a joy. They're just a, they're a complete joy. Well, they're absurdly priced. Surdly priced. Uh, so anyway, so this race they have served prices soft funnels. Um, uh, okay. So I wondered whether there wasn't a less expensive place to get a soft funnel than JB Prince. Now listen. before we go any further. I know the, uh, the finals at JV Prince are expensive, but JV Prince is selling
+
+[45:18] a, an expensive brand of those funnels because they only carry kind of the top quality
+
+[45:22] stuff. Here's the deal with JB Prince. And yes, it's true. I know them all. I like them, and they've given me some stuff before, but, uh, their stuff isn't cheap,
+
+[45:31] but I don't think that they, they're charging, they're charged. they're not getting rich off of it. They're just carrying high quality brands, but stuff that you can't normally get embarked from places, and so the price, the prices are
+
+[45:44] a little bit higher, but it's not like they're. It's not like they're, uh, you know, making money hand over fist with huge margins. They're just not. Okay, anyway, um. Okay Well, there is an easier uh, sorry, there is a, uh, uh, one uh, he saw
+
+[46:01] on uh, on uh, QVC that was much cheaper, right?
+
+[46:05] Uh, and I looked on Amazon and there was a sauce funnel on Amazon. It was about half the price of the one that you get at JB Prince. However, the one review I saw on it, uh, was basically
+
+[46:15] that, this sucker doesn't work and we'll get the expensive one, which is from, uh, Matfer. Uh, and so, you know, he's wondering how hard could it possibly be to build one of these
+
+[46:24] things, with metal frontal, uh, a screen? It actually doesn't need a screen and some sort of device to control the aperture. Uh, but I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want to build it for 150 bucks. Could I build it? Yes, I could go, the probably metal funds themselves are expensive, especially when they go down to the thing. So, yes, I own a welder and a plasma cutter and a drill press and all that stuff, so I could go make one, but I definitely wouldn't want to for a 100, 150 bucks, but uh, something um, uh, he writes
+
+[46:52] it, Gabriel writes it, it's interesting is, if you search for results like soft
+
+[46:56] gun TRY plans, you come upon DIY weapons of the Libyan rebels, and if you look it up on the Atlantic uh, monthly website, they have a link to all these pictures of, like,
+
+[47:08] literally, like, Dudes in workshops, building weaponry to uh, to take back the country from
+
+[47:15] Kaddafi. pretty interesting, pretty interesting website. anyway, go check it off. Okay Monica writes in on milkshakes. 1st of all, I love cooking issues. Keep up the good work. Thank you. Anyway, I've never written to you before, but I thought you might find this recipe interesting in quotation marks. I would really laugh out loud when I realized that these people were actually making a buffalo chicken milkshake. Although it sounds totally gross. I'm thinking the idea of savory milkshakes might be worth checking out, like a Frozen Bloody Mary or something. I saw this recipe on both feed, but I can't find a link to the article now, but here's a link to the video of them making
+
+[47:47] it. Um, I found it to be totally different and thought you and other readers might enjoy it. Uh, thanks and take care. Monica. Okay. So what this is, is, uh, and I haven't seen this episode, even though I love 30 Rock, is, uh, passing some sort of a fast food establishment, and the sign says, ba-, you know, it's back, the buffalo chicken milkshake, and so this guy, which he calls himself a super fan, is on this video on video, I think, or no, YouTube,
+
+[48:15] and, uh, he's, uh, sitting with one of the writers from 30 Rock, and he's making her a buffalo chicken
+
+[48:21] milkshake, now. If you haven't seen the video, here's what he does. He takes milk and cream, right? And then, uh, say, milk, cream, uh, blue cheese, blends it,
+
+[48:32] adds uh, tomato sauce, and buffalo uh, sauce, buffalo chicken wing sauce, and Worcestershire sauce, right?
+
+[48:40] And then puts it in the pan, and much like the granita we were talking about earlier, puts it in the freezer, and stirs it occasionally, until it turns into an icy creamy thing, and then uh, blends it in a blender, uh, and
+
+[48:52] then, uh, serves it, as a milkshake, and garnishes it with a, a chicken strip, and sorry. okay now. Let's just leave aside whether or not this thing's gonna like whether or not this is a good idea. Just leave that aside. Jack, what's your call? Good idea about it, yeah. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. So anyway, so let's leave this aside. This is like, here are the errors that are made from a cooking perspective in this
+
+[49:15] video. Uh 1st of all, you can tell that the texture of this thing is not going to be right. It's not an ice cream texture. And the reason why, it's not going to be a milkshake texture either, it looks greeny and groppy, and the reason why is because there's no sugar in it, right now, if you want to go savory, right, you still need something to take the place of sugar,
+
+[49:36] otherwise the texture is never going to be milkshake. It's going to be greeny and gloppy, like it is in the video, you can see it. So what this person needs to do? is get a hold of some glucose syrup, right? Which has a lot of the properties of sugar in terms of texture modifying for ice creams, but does not have the sweetness,
+
+[49:55] right? So this is the 1st straight up air that uh is being made in this, is that there's no sugar to modify uh the textures. Now, if I wanted to do it and I didn't have a home, uh, ice cream machine, which I don't, right? I would, uh, whip it with a whipping agent, uh, then set it in
+
+[50:11] the free, uh, freezer, then blend it, uh, with the milk stuff and get
+
+[50:15] it, but you'd have to have something with glucose syrup. There's a 2nd huge error that he makes, and this is the one that really is going to, uh, um, shows he's not paying attention to the labels on his ingredients, and that is, he says that his, uh, thing, uh, it
+
+[50:30] had, remember, has Worcestershire sauce in it. He says that his milkshake is still vegetarian until he puts the chicken strip in. Now, I don't want to go, like any of you guys are vegetarians out there. Uh, Worcestershire sauce is not vegetarian because the one of the prime ingredients in Worcestershire sauce is anyone, anyone? anchovies, right? In fact, I just did a clarified, uh, uh, you know, centrifugally
+
+[50:56] clarified, uh, Worcester sauce, like 2 weeks ago, and all of the anchovy settles out at the bottom, and it basically tastes like straight fish paste, the stuff at the bottom that settles out
+
+[51:06] to clarify Worcester sauce. So Worcestershire sauce is definitely not vegetarian. Now, you can buy crappy steak Worcestershire sauce, right? Which I do not recommend at all, and fake Wishershire sauce, can be vegetarian, because it doesn't have anchovies in it. But if you use honest to God, which is your sauce, which they were using on the video. It is no longer vegetarian. So take that for whatever it is, right? Right anyway. Okay, Matthew writes in on cheese. Hey, Nastasia, uh, as I've written in before, I'm working with melted cheese sauce, use a sodium citrate, and I order
+
+[51:39] carrot in along with cheese, water, and beer. Sodium situates, it's called melting salt, by the way, and it helps uh, maintain a smooth curve and something's melting so it doesn't get greeny. Okay. I got the recipe from Nathan Mirvold via the internet. His recipe is for use on mac and cheese. I'm using the cheese sauce as a topping for a sandwich. I melt the cheese and hold it in a steam table. It works quite well, though it does tend to thicken over time. I fix this by adding liquid and then adjusting the seasoning. My question is in reference to the iota carrot in this recipe. Uh, in the miracle recipe, he melts the cheese with uh, the chemicals, sets it in a block, and then partially freezes it to make it easier to grate, and subsequently
+
+[52:14] melt it into the cooked macaroni, and cooking water. I'm unsure if the roll of carrying is simply to make the cheese more stable for freezing, uh, keeping the shape of the block, or if it is to do with the mouth feel or texture of the melted sauce. Uh, as I'm not very familiar with either, either uh, ingredient. This recipe. I was hoping you could shed some light on the properties or lighter there, and perhaps the purpose of using carrot again, and well, uh, thanks, Matthew. So rather than uh, having my own speculation, which I have, uh, I wrote Chris Young an email last night. Uh, Chris Young is, uh, you know, one of the authors of the book and worked on this
+
+[52:45] recipe, uh, and so, uh, here's, you know, might as well get the answer from the guy, right? Anyway, so he wrote back, he said, the short answer is that melting salts, uh, act to stabilize molten cheese emulsions by, uh, cheating calcium, uh, cute, so it's cheating, or is
+
+[53:01] even cheating. Uh, calcium solidizing and dispersing the proteins. Hydrating is probably an iPhone problem. Uh, solidizing, dispersing the proteins, hydrating and swelling the proteins, and I must find the fat. You can use only melting sauce, but older cheeses tend to have brittle texture. This is because aging breaks proteins down to shorter chains. They have less interaction with each other and less elasticity in the slice. Adding iota carrot union gives back some of the elasticity and moisture holding ability, uh, when restructuring
+
+[53:29] of ferry merch or cheese. If you want to skip the iota, just blend in younger, milder cheeses,
+
+[53:34] a stir, uh, curd cheese with 3 to month, 3 to 6 months of age is a good choice. So, uh, it's basically there so that you can use more intensely flavored, more mature
+
+[53:44] cheeses, and still have some elasticity. So, if you're using a young cheese, uh, Chris Young, our friend,
+
+[53:50] who found a show, uh, says you can leave it out. Okay. Uh, Chris, right, saying, uh, lactic acid, uh, with another lactic
+
+[54:00] acid that cheese question, uh, dear Dave and Hammer. Um okay. Are there any tips that you might throw at us for using malik, ascorbic citric and lactic acid in the kitchen? and I, I don't know where his, uh,
+
+[54:11] uh, you know, he, was it? I wonder whether Chris is a man or woman. What do you think? Chris with a K, Jack, man or woman? Ooh, with a K. That's a wild card. I'm not sure Yeah, that's a tough one. I'll say I'll say guy though. Yeah? You're going with Chris Christopherson? Yeah, Carlos is going with woman, though. Yeah. So we got a 50-50 split. Okay, um, Okay,
+
+[54:34] we generally cook vegan kinds of food. So mustache on an airplane somewhere making her vegan face. Uh, but not that raw, uh, kit. I shouldn't say it on there. sugar honey iced tea. Not that raw sugar honey iced tea and I promise we stay away from sprouts. Good because sprouts, as we all know, tastes like poison. Uh, but um, Chris is interested in making cheese, uh, with, with nut milks and convinced that lactic acid is the key flavor compound that's missing. Yeah sure she uh he or she knows it's just one go easy on me. I'm mostly interested in doing this from perspective trying to figure out what makes some of the distinctive flavors other than specific bacteria,
+
+[55:08] et cetera. Okay. So, uh, it's true, that, uh, lactic acid is one of the characteristic, uh, flavors in many, many cheeses, um, and you, and, and cured meats for that matter, um, and pickles, uh, and sauerkraut, uh, and kimchi, and you can
+
+[55:24] bilactic acid, and you can spike things with it to make it taste more like that.
+
+[55:28] Uh, and I've done this many times, but as you note, it's only one of the many flavor components that's, uh, present, so a lot of it is protein breakdown, and uh,
+
+[55:39] and, and a lot of the 1st is, if you ever had a cheese, that's so sharp that, like, it pops the, the taste buds, like, I, like I have this like harbor reaction to, uh, certain cheeses that I happen to love, so I eat it anyway, where my taste buds literally pop out, and you can see them, they look like little mushrooms that are exploding on my tongue,
+
+[55:56] and, um, And those are because of fat breakdown products. So you have, you know, liquid breakdown products, you have protein breakdown products, uh, and you have
+
+[56:07] other like bacterially uh, produced things like lactic acids. So it's just a total schmorgasborg conglomeration of different uh flavors and you can buy. Uh, for instance, if you put fats in, you can buy enzymes that will
+
+[56:21] enhance, um, the liquid breakdown in nuts, uh, and causal certain things to those flavors
+
+[56:29] to happen. I don't know whether they're gonna taste good or not. That's definitely something you, you can, you can do, but if you experiment with us. uh, you know, please tell us, a scorebic, for the other one, that's lactic, for a scorebic, I use that whenever I'm juicing. Like whenever I'm juicing something, uh, I got a scorevic sitting around because that's the one that stops things from turning. Uh, you know, stops things from oxidizing because that's like, you know, uh, vitamin C. an antioxidant. Uh, Malik, I use uh, a mixture of malik and citric, 2 parts, citric to one part, Malik, as my go to, uh, acidity corrector, because that mixture, 2 parts, uh, citric and one part, Malik, is basically the main acids in lime juice, and since lime juice, is what God put on the earth to correct acidity with, uh, if you don't want to use lime juice, because it's not going to keep, or it's going to be heated a lot,
+
+[57:16] something like that, a slight pinch of those 2 acids in that ratio, will, uh, will bring
+
+[57:20] about, uh, the desired. The desired acidity. So I always have those things on hand and I use them all the time. All right, Dave, we got to wrap it up. All right. I'm almost done with this and my last question. Okay, we good? Do we have 5 minutes or 2 minutes? Yep. Okay. Also, unrelated question. Would you be willing or have you ever posted pictures of your home kitchen somewhere? I know you must have a somewhat small kitchen, I'm interested in your use of space. We are in uh Los Angeles in a smallest condo, and space is always an issue,
+
+[57:47] uh, where the kitchen is taking over uh, the living room, and I wonder if you how you solve some of these issues that we run into, and I'm sure you are more creative about this than we
+
+[57:54] are. I don't know about that. Our solutions often just involve a lot of swearing, but perhaps yours do as well. Well, well, Chris, swearing always works. I find that if you curse at something enough, and sometimes punch and hit it, as long as it's an object, not a person, that you can usually get it to do what you
+
+[58:10] want. But in fact, if you go on, uh, on the Google and you search, uh, New York magazine. Dave Arnold Kitchen. There is a picture of my kitchen. Um, it's bigger than, it's bigger than it should be. My apartment is 800 square feet. My kitchen is 200 of that, but it is pretty compact. I have a 6 foot sink with like sliding boards and all that, but there's a there's a rundown of it there. I'd be happy to talk about it in excruciating detail, uh, maybe the next time around when we have more time, but, on the way out, I do want to say this. Uh, happy holiday to uh everyone out there. We're gonna see we'll be back uh next Tuesday. I think I scheduled right unless heritage radio is not going to be working next week. Are they, Jack, are we on for next week? We're not. We're off next week, so we'll see you guys next week. And the week after that, it's what? 2012 yeah. No, it'll be January 2nd or third, I think. All right. Well, listen, I'm going to see all you guys in the new year. And before I go, I want to say that I can officially announce now that, uh, we're going to be starting a bar concept,
+
+[59:14] and the back of Sambar, uh, and it's probably the official date is going to be sometime in mid January, it's going to be called Booker and Dax, at Sambar, and it's going to be using all of the techniques that we've been jabbering about for
+
+[59:30] years. We're going to use the red hot poker. I'm gonna use uh some new carbonation equipment on building, with a center views there. I'm going to be doing legal rotary of operation using liquid nitrogen so that we can do water-based dissolations that
+
+[59:43] tastes good. We're gonna pull out all of those stops, and we're gonna get it going in the back. uh in uh it's going to be in night times in the back of sandbar and look for it. Booker and Docks at sambar. Happy holidays, cooking issues.
+
+[1:00:09] Merry Christmas, baby. You sure did treat me nice. Mmm Merry Christmas, baby. You should it, dreamy night.
+
+[1:00:37] Cave me a diamond rape with Christmas. I'm living in paradise.
+
+[1:00:51] Well, I'm feeling my mind. Got good music on my radio.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bush with Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:15] The following program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, Kane Vineyard and
+
+[0:22] Winery Supports Heritage Radio, and the growing movement to change how Americans eat, and how we think about our planet. For more information, visit www.cain5.com.
+
+[0:38] Hello, happy New Year and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. Come to you live every Tuesday from the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good, how are you? Doing all right. How was your Christmas there? I can hear you crinkling up your bag, by the way. Fine. Yes. How was yours? Good, good. I was in up at my mom's house there in Westchester, just north of the city. Gave my, uh, my kids, the crazy train set that, uh, you know,
+
+[1:15] was my dad's then given to me, and I gave it to my kids. They seem to enjoy it, you know, O Gage, the whole deal, Christmas tree, blah, blah, blah. Nice. Yeah, nice, right? Yeah. You get everything special? Anything? Nothing special. Nothing? Wow. Wow. That's a depressing. No, it was fine. Nothing special. Nothing I want to get into. Wow. All right. Well, anyway, calling your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. All right, let's get Oh, by the way, I'm not sure if we're going to have a show next week because I will be in Sweden
+
+[1:46] in, uh, and on Tuesday, I don't know exactly where I'm going to be. So we'll have to figure that out, but I would love to do a live
+
+[1:53] call in from Sweden where it's dark all the time. And, you know, I'm the only idiot. Actually, I'm not the only idiot. Like a huge host, absolute vodka is sending me over and basically a huge host of like some of the best known and nicest people actually in the bar business are going over there, Dale
+
+[2:08] DeGroff, Audrey Saunders, Jimmy, and blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And for some reason, I got put on that list, like they accidentally emailed it to me, and then when I replied, yes, they
+
+[2:16] they were like, oh, crap. And then they, you know, they couldn't rescind their offer. Anyway, my wife bought me the uh, the butt kicking uh, Canada goose, uh, like giant South Pole style parka to go with it, which is awesome because uh, I get to stay warm and apparently a goose
+
+[2:32] dies, which is good. Everyone knows Canadian geese. They don't actually make that of Canadian geese, but is there any bird on earth less pleasant than the Canadian goose? I really like them. What? What? Wait, you don't like biscuits, but you like Canadian geese? What is it? They're really pretty, I think. Pretty, they poop. You've never lived on the east coast, right? I've stepped in their poop, but I think they're really pretty. Have you ever been close to one? There's a phone call. Okay, I'm going to take the phone call, but the Canadian geese are the meanest, meanest creatures in the world. They're so mean. So mean. Anyway, call, you're on the air. Hello? Oh, I guess we lost him, sorry. Oh, man, so quick. Really? What happened? I don't know. think it might be Matthew with stage fright. Anyway, hopefully they'll call back. Anyway, we do have a question in from Matthew saying, I hope your 2012 is going
+
+[3:19] well and no mine apocalypses have occurred yet, but there's still hope for the Mayan apocalypse. I'll tell you something Let's say the Maya apocalypse does happen, right? That's kind of good news. It means that there is sort of something else out there, right? I mean, if you were an agnostic or an atheist, and the Mayan apocalypse comes true. Well, that's proof that there's something out there. That's good news, right? Got to put a positive spin on things, Nastasia, even an apocalypse. No? But then you're not going to know if it existed when as soon as you go. No, but that's the point. If there is, it means there's something higher. There's something out there. There's something. No one will relish in that fact. No, except me. Anyway. Matthew has 2 questions in. The 1st one, Matthew's going to Columbia. I'm going to spend a week in Cartagena this January. I wanted to ask you about food recommendations. I am a huge a huge fruit fan like you are. Well, it says like you 2 are, but really, I force Nastasia to do it. She hates fruit. I'm kidding. She actually does like fruit, right? Something she likes. She got to like something. Anyway, if you have any specifics on fruit to try that, be cool. Otherwise, if you have any specific dishes, seafood or ingredients, maybe worth bringing home to look out for in Colombia, please let me know. I'm not sure if you've been to Cartagena specifically, but if you have, do you know of any restaurants, fish kiosks or dive bars worth trying. Well, I was only in Cartagena for one day. And the only real restaurant I ate in was a friend of mine, Danielle
+
+[4:36] Castagno, who also does a razor shiny knife here in Brooklyn. He has, I don't know if he was even doing that anymore because he's got like 8000000000 restaurants in
+
+[4:43] Colombia, but his restaurant in Colombia, in Cartagena is called Vera or Vera. It's in the Hotel Shirassi. it's like really cool. It's all white. It's got a waterfall on the inside. It's kind of indoor outdoor, which is kind of the coolest thing about cardihip. That's really the only place I ate and I can recommend it. I recommend going there. I didn't go to, we went to like one or 2 dive bars, but we almost got the crap eaten out of us by the locals. And so we ended up leaving. I don't remember the names of them. It was very late anyway. Okay. On fruit. Now, I know I've mentioned these before, on the air, but you have to have when you're down there, Lulu. Lulu is and they make a drink out of Lulu. Lulu has an amazing, you blend it into a juice and when you shake it into a drink, it makes a nice kind of creamy head. So you got to have Lulo, which is very aesthetic. Uh, Uchuva, which are basically like uh, gooseberries, but they're really good and it's, and they're almost free. It's like they come on the table when you, you know, when you come mangostines, you get great mangostines there and they're not from there, but they're delicious. Guanabana is maybe my favorite fruit in like the world. You can get really great ones there. They have many different kind of passionfruit variants. Grenadilla is probably the most favorite one down there. Delicious, and kuguba, which is another kind of a banana shaped passionfruit, but smaller, also delicious. You want to try tamante d'arbo, which is kind of bitter at the skin, but very interesting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[6:00] Another one, pataya, which is their dragon fruit, which is actually delicious as opposed to the dragon fruits we get here, which are, in my opinion, without use. Yeah? Okay. Yeah. Sasha's like, I don't care. don't care Okay. Two, low temperature. You know, it's nice to come back after, you know, a break. It's a new year, new everything, and it's good to know that some things don't change, like nostalgia not giving a crap about what I'm talking about. No, I was thinking about how your kids yesterday asked me, are dragons related to dragon fruit? And I was like, hmm. Yeah, they're obsessed with this kind of relation, like word relation. like, well, the words are really good. Yeah. But the fruits themselves are not. Sings how dragon fruit is real. Dragon fruit's real. Dragon's not so much. Okay. Matthew, 2nd question on low temperature duck breast. I recently became the proud father of a polyscience sous vide professional circulator. Congratulations. Christmas present maybe? Maybe, maybe. I tried out a Muscovy duck breast at 58 degrees Celsius, which is like 136 or 137
+
+[6:56] Fahrenheit for about an hour, sorry, 15657,
+
+[7:02] 157 somewhere in there. For about an hour, and a half . It came out tasty, but a bit chewy, with such a lean cut, without a huge amount of connected tissue, with cooking for a longer time, yielded more tender result. I was also wondering when you do do duck breast in a circulator, do you render the fat before or after the bath? Thanks, Matthew. Okay, I always rendered my duck breasts after I cooked them. Some people do a sear before and after. With duck breasts, I'm really just trying to cook the breast through, and then afterwards, I sear it traditionally, basically, in a pan to get that nice crisp duck breast. The modernist cuisine. folks, they do a sear both before and after, and they use, you know, what they call cryo searing, which is like kind of a dry ice bag that they put the duck breast on to freeze that portion
+
+[7:43] solid so you don't overcook the meat. Um, I basically just put the duck breast in a bag, squish it very flat against the table, the skin side so that it renders nicely after it's cooked because if you just put it in the
+
+[7:54] bag, all willy nilly, the skin will be bent. It won't render properly against the pen. Okay, because cooked meat is stiffer. Then I try to cook it for the shortest possible amount of time. like 45 minutes. The problem, um, cooking it longer, we'll break down some more stuff, but it actually, to my, to my taste, tends to make it more mushy, not necessarily more tender, just more mushy, and certain duck breasts, and I can't remember whether Muscovy does it, get a little bit, um, livery also if
+
+[8:21] they, if they cook for a very long period of time. You could try, some people I know do cook duck breasts for a long time and they seem to like it. I don't. I like duck breast cooked at like, um, 50 uh, at like 57 actually Celsius is where I cook it, but it'll probably be a little tough in that range or 58 if it's a tough breast for about 45 minutes to an hour.
+
+[8:40] Try cooking one longer. I don't have too much experience with the muscovy breasts. I do most of my tests on the pecking duck breast. Um, but I don't know. Again, I hate to say don't do it, because some people really like duck breast when it's cooked longer and it will break it down further. Don't go any higher on temperature. Usually if a duck breast is tough at 57. I say go to 58. Celsius, because that's going to take away a little of the squashiness, the same way that if you have a skirt steak, you can take it up one degree. It'll get rid of a little of the squashy. So you could try to go to 59, but that seems way too high to me. Maybe dial back to 57. I wish I could give a better recommendation here because just what you're writing into me is not my normal
+
+[9:17] experience for what happens with duck breast. Anyway, sorry about that. Two, Kurt writes in from Washington, DC. Why is whole wheat pasta so terrible? Do you agree, nostalgia? You hate it, right? Well, 1st of all, Nastasia, a hater of many things. One of the things I think she hates most is kind of poorly done positive. She is a pasta lunatic so much so that even I, who love pasta and used to make pasta, basically three, 4 times a week, cook pasta quite often. She assumes I dislike pasta because I don't appear to like it as much as she does,
+
+[9:51] right? You often tell me we're not the same person. Yeah, we're not the same person. true. And so you, but you also hate the holy pasta. So do I. Yeah, Jack, you hate as well. And what are your reasons for the hatred? I don't know, it's just the texture. Exactly. Exactly. The texture. I actually don't mind the actual flavor of it so much. If it's done properly, as long as it hasn't gone rancid. But yeah, the texture is no good. Nastasia? Yeah. There's a rice pasta out there, which is dreadful. Have you tried that one? Oh, dreadful. just awful. I mean, look, rice noodles are great when it's supposed to be a rice noodle in an Asian dish, but if you're trying to pretend that it's Italian pasta, it is horrible, right? And there's a corn pasta also. Also, Jack, you wouldn't approve from a texture standpoint, but I actually kind of enjoy it. If you don't think about it as pasta. If you think about it as like a corn noodle, it's actually kind of good. Anyway, uh, what Kurt writes in is, uh, why is holy pasta so terrible? This is a serious question. I love pasta, as does apparently Nastasia and Jack, but my wife and mother regularly try to convince me that I should be eating
+
+[10:55] Ronzoni healthy harvest. Berea plus. Is it pronounced barilla arbaria? Gorilla? Like gorilla? Brilla plus, or some other healthier product, healthier in quotes. And by the way, I agree, like health. you know what? People think that like, you need to be, like, if you eat whole wheat, you're suddenly healthier. Like we're not the most over, uh, we have so much uh, an oversu- super abundance of nutrition uh, in our diets anyway. Okay. I like the fact that healthier is in quotes, even though my wife always smacks me in the face when I put quotes around
+
+[11:24] something and, you know, if I put quotes, anyway, whatever. These products are terrible. Partially, it's that the product itself tastes awful. And part of it is that it mocks me by reminding me of actual delicious pasta. The process of eating it is like chomping on raw field corn while staring at a stack of fresh corn tortillas. is entirely unsatisfying. When I've had to cook with the stuff, I simply try to hide it, preparing dishes with strong flavors like Asian peanut sauces, but can the product itself be made better? Nastasia hates peanut sauces, by the way, hates them anyway. Is there a good way to make improved pasta? That is, are there pastas with lower glycemic indexes or more protein that are culinarily worthwhile? Well, no. I mean, the issue is, is that wheat, the reason why wheat is so awesome is because wheat is awesome. And it's the gluten in wheat that gives it that kind of that awesome texture that we associate with
+
+[12:17] uh, with pasta. And when you add the brand from, you know,
+
+[12:22] and all the other stuff that goes into a whole wheat pasta, then those things tend to,
+
+[12:28] um, what's the word I'm looking for, not interrupt, but interfere with the gluten matrix and make the texture not as
+
+[12:35] good. In addition, they have fat in them, which tends to go rancid, so if it's stored for a long period of time, you're going to get rancidity in
+
+[12:43] them. So there's all a bunch of associated problems with going whole wheat on
+
+[12:48] pasta. Now, if you were going to make your own whole wheat pasta, you could get a whole wheat, fairly soft
+
+[12:53] flour that is very, very finely ground, that doesn't taste like sawdust, for instance, a
+
+[12:58] chapati flour, something like this, that is quite good and something like a biscuit. Make sure it's extraordinarily fresh. Then I would dope it with vital wheat gluten to try and add more gluten to it. Try and get some more snap. And then I would add a consway, which is a little bit of an alkaline powder, or you could even add some baking soda to increase the alkalinity.
+
+[13:19] Baking soda is not really strong enough. You want to add something like sodium carbonate, not sodium biocarbonate, or just get console at your Asian grocery. This will strengthen the gluten network even further and give it a snap. It will give it a little bit of an alkaline taste, but that's kind of nice in certain applications. Maybe it could be nice in an Italian thing. And maybe that would be enough to get some of the snap back. What do you think, Nastasia? Anyway, give it a shot, give us a ring. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? Howdy. This is Matthew, actually, you just answered a couple of my questions before. Nice. Were you the caller on the line that we, it got dropped by mistake? Yeah, I got disconnected. All right, good. So at least we didn't lose you permanently. What's up? Happy New Year by the way. being a hog by asking too many questions. That's all right. Happy New Year. What's up? Happy New Year to you. Actually, I got a small pork shouldered rose, but I want to throw my circulator right now. I just, uh, browns and doesn't have to throw it in. Um, I've done beef short ribs before at like 48 hours for, um, at about 58, and I, I loved them. They came out great. I haven't found much information on pork shoulder. All right. Yeah, good news and good news and bad news on the pork shoulder. Anytime you're doing a low temperature cook on something that contains multiple muscles in
+
+[14:36] it and pork shoulders, a prime example, certain muscles are going to be perfect at the end of the cook
+
+[14:42] time and other muscles aren't. So the muscles in the pork shoulder that have more connective tissue in them are
+
+[14:49] going to be really good when they're cooked in a very similar way to a short rib. So, like, um, you know, like 48 hours at like, uh, or you could do like probably 36 hours at like 60 degrees, something in there in that range, which is 140, somewhere in that range for
+
+[15:05] pork shoulder is going to be good. And all of the muscles that contain connective tissue are going to be good right there. you know what I mean? Yeah, this I took a look at the roast. It's pretty small and it all looks like well marbled, like pretty much, you know, it's small. It's about, uh, 5 inches across, I think, maybe a little smaller and, uh, They all look good. They all look like the right muscles. So, uh, should I go too much short rib? Yeah, but a little higher. People don't like to see their people don't like to see their pork too pinked out on them unless you cure it with an insecure beforehand. So in which case they don't notice because they can't tell. But you, um, yeah, I would go like up in the 60 degree range, like between 60 and
+
+[15:48] 60 is still going to be quite pink. So you're gonna put a nice sear on it. If you're not, you can go all the way up to 62. I wouldn't go above 62, right? It depends on your customer or your family or whatever. If they... Oh, just for me, actually, but it tastes good at 60, but it's still kind of, it's going to be kind of soft and it's going to be pink. So if that's a problem for you visually, then go higher all the way up to 62. Or, like I say, you could put a hard sear on it. You'll notice if there are some muscles that didn't have a lot of connected tissue in it, they will appear at this point to be a little bit
+
+[16:20] fibery, they'll be tender and they won't be dry, but they'll be a little fibrine. So when you when you do it, just, you know, keep a lookout for that just in case you notice it. Another question on the same subject, if I was breaking down a, you know, whole pork shoulder, and I wanted to cook it, you know, in the circulator, how would I, you know, I just look for the muscles that appear to have more, um,
+
+[16:44] connect the tissue or marbling kind of, or is that? Yeah, so like, I'll give you one that I can visualize in my head. So therefore I can tell you is like on a on pork belly. If you get the whole pork belly, almost all of it is good, but there's that one muscle that runs in the opposite direction from the most
+
+[17:00] in the pork belly that looks like a little oval on the top of the pork, that muscle. If you look at that, it doesn't have any sort of connected tissue on the inside, and
+
+[17:08] that muscle itself, on its own, is fairly tender, that one doesn't respond to low temperature cooking for a long time very
+
+[17:14] well, to give you an example. All right. Thank you very much, Dave. Thank you. All right, right in. Tell us how it works. All right, bye. Have good day. How you too. All right, we're going to go to our 1st commercial break. Come back, call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking is used.
+
+[17:38] Really or not, here I come. You can't hide. Gonna find you and keep you happy, pretty or not. Give her car. You get high. Gonna love you And make you love me. You give my away. But it's all I got, oh, baby. Hey, baby, cause I gotta like the air. Anywhere you go My heart's gonna go, baby. Hey baby, you can't hide from me, I don't know. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Jack, what song was that? The Delphonics. Nice. Nice. Nice. Ready or not? Nice. And we have a caller, caller. You are on the air. Hey, how's it going? It's Brian. Hey, what's up? How you doing? Listen, I'm going to New York. I'm coming later in the week, and I wanted to, uh, see what you and
+
+[18:45] Natasha thought about, um, some restaurants to visit, some, some, uh,
+
+[18:49] stores I should be going to, to, uh, to pick up some, um, some fun, fun stuff. All right. So, uh, what kind of, okay. I'll tell you where I shop and Nastash will tell you where she shops. If you like Italian food, do you like Italian food? Okay, go to Depolo's, but budget, Depolo's is like the Italian market. It's on Grand Street and Mott, but budget some time because it's going to take forever. If you're lucky, you'll get one of the family members, like Louie or Sal or Marie or Renee, who's actually not a family member, but it's awesome. And it's kind of one of the gems of New York City. I've been going, I don't know, well over a decade, well, well over a decade. But that's a that's a great place. If you want kitchen equipment, you're going to go check out JB Prince, which is like, it's in like 31st or 32nd Street,
+
+[19:36] uh, just on the east side, it's on the 11th floor. It's like a jewelry box of like crazy awesome equipment. You're going to want to check out. Um, you're going to want to check out for cookbooks, kitchen arts and letters, which is way uptown, uh, in the 90s. It's the best cookbook store I've ever been in. And the people who run it know so much about cookbooks that you will be embarrassed if you don't actually buy from them if you sneak off and buy it on Amazon instead because
+
+[20:01] they're worth supporting. Um, what do you think for, what do you think, nastasia for restaurants? Um, All the main ones that you always mentioned. Well, you mentioned some. Right, you know, you always talk about Del Posto on WD 15 and
+
+[20:16] Milk Bar, but, uh, you know, everybody knows this, but how about some that, that, that, that the little off the radar? Hmm. I'm going to have to add Nastasia. think about it. going to think about that for a minute and have an actual response instead of just saying, why don't you talk about it, which I could say myself. I don't need to ask you to ask me to talk about it anyway. Well, while she's thinking about that. When are you coming? What dates? Um, I'm, uh, I'm coming tomorrow and I'm there for a week and a half . Oh, yeah. Just gonna miss when, theoretically, I'm not allowed to announce anything theoretically when our bar is going to open. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna miss it. Yeah, just barely. But the bars, obviously, you're going to want to go to the PDT, Death
+
+[21:00] and Co, Pegu Club, Little Branch. Milk and Honey is kind of hard to get into sometimes. You got any restaurants there, Nostasia? You the one that always recommends restaurants for people. I know. No, I know we go to some really terrible restaurants. Well, good. What about lunch at Teresa's? Ooh, Therese is really good. And you know about Roberta's, obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't be calling in. Roberta's you gotta stop. Got to go out. Yeah. Oh, and if you want to taste them, if you want to taste, and this is off the radar. Look, okay, right? pumping heritage meats, but if you want to taste some delicious American country hams, the Essex Street market shop for heritage meats has probably the best supply other than a sambar of American country hams to try of people that are using heritage meats, but are also great producers like Bentons and Nancy
+
+[21:47] Mahaffey at Colonel Newsom's and S. Wallace Edwards, who's a sponsor of the network,
+
+[21:53] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, what else does he? All right, she's going to think about this crap, all right? And then... about hydrocarloids. Where, you know, any good place to pick something like that up? No, I buy online. I just buy online. Like, go to any one of the online suppliers, like modernist pantry or, you know, terrace spice or any of that. Amazon now is linked up with some of these guys. You can get it really quickly. I've never walked into a store and bought stuff here in terms of hydrocoloids, you know, and we don't even have in New York
+
+[22:21] City really great homebrew shops. There's a small homebrew shop at the Whole Foods, but nothing, you know, nothing really to write home about. Any other specialty markets? Oh, there's a weird. Why don't you send me an email and then I'll send you an email back? Or we'll try and think about it and we'll, and we'll spout it off on the next, on the next program or something like that. Well, you have to be too late for you. Anyway, we've given you some good recommendations. All right, very good. All right. All right, thanks. Happy New Year. have another color. Oh, we have another caller. on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Joshua Stokes. How you doing? doing all right. What up? Um, I have to do in the next few days and make a logoir au reign and I wanted to do it low temperature if I could. Could you give me some pointers on either making a terrain or a torcheon? What's going to go in? Is it terrine basically 100% foie gras with flavoring or are you adding other stuff to it? Just the just the flaw gras. Yeah. Now, okay, I have to be honest. I don't cook because it's really expensive and it's not normally my, it's not one of the things I normally cook. If you go on, so I'd basically be telling you from a long time ago memory, what to do, but there's various different ways of doing the terrain in terms of the time and temperature.
+
+[23:31] Typically, what you would do is you would pack it, either in a terrene mold inside of a bag, or you could pack it just alone inside of a bag. Um, and, uh, there's a, it depends on how you want it, whether you want it basically
+
+[23:46] me qui, like partially cooked or whether you want it kind of all the way cooked through. Most people, I think, now tend to go on the low side of cooked. And it's one of the few things that is still cooked at what they say is a delta temperature where the water bath temperature is
+
+[24:00] like, you're doing this sous vide, right? My memory just zapped out. You're doing a sous vide. I mean, I would say low temperature. I don't have an actual vacuum machine. All right, so you can do it in a vacuum in a Ziploc bag, no problem. Most people put a slight Delta, Delta T on it just because, you don't want it to cook for a very, very long time because the longer it cooks, even at the lower temperatures, the more kind of fat leakage you're going to get out of
+
+[24:22] it, do you know what I'm saying? So they tend to go they're trying to try to do it a little bit more quickly. Go on cookingissues.com, go to the sous vide, primer, sous vide,
+
+[24:34] low temperature primer. And in that, in the pretty pictures, charts. There is a section on, I believe there's a temperature there for foie gras terrain. If not, they're cooked low. like in the low to mid-50s, Celsius, usually cooked at something like 60 degrees
+
+[24:51] Celsius to something like 54, 55 in that range. For a higher temp cookie, could go up to like 57, but I wouldn't go higher than that. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but those numbers are in the primer in the pretty pictures charts, especially redacted from Bruno Guseau, George
+
+[25:09] Prelu, and Juan Rocca's recipes on Foie Gras Tureen. Okay, great. Thank you very much. No problem. Good luck. And sorry I didn't have it right off the top of my head. Oh, no problem. Thanks. All right. I should cook more foie gras, right? Yeah, I really just, I just don't cook it very often. Weird. Okay. Oops. Getting a, we're getting a picture in. Nostache will have to explain to me what it is in a minute, hold a second. So, uh, got a question in from uh, Andrew uh, said about teeth brushing. This morning, I was brushing my teeth as I habitually do every morning, we hope. When I brush my teeth, I also brush my tongue as to remove the horrible morning breath germs and whatnot. I took pause this morning and thought, does this abrasive action hurt my tongue and therefore my taste buds and palate. This may be pure paranoia, but as a budding professional cook, I'm doing my best to taste everything, develop a palette and not swallow some lye, making a joke on me swallowing live, burning half of my
+
+[26:05] tongue off. By the way, that's Andrew from MPLS. What MPLS? Anyway, I did burn off a huge chunk of my taste buds with lie, but they grew back. Thank goodness. So it's a curious question. So not just brushing your teeth, but they sell tongue scrapers to scrape kind of your tongue off. And
+
+[26:23] 1st of all, I looked up, is this is tongue scraping and teeth brushing actually effective? you know, tongue brushing effective. And I looked in an article called the impact of different tongue cleaning methods on bacterial load of the tongue from
+
+[26:36] 2008. And yes, not once, but habitual cleaning of the tongue via scraping, and I would assume also by
+
+[26:44] brushing, does reduce bacterial load on the tongue. Okay? And therefore, you know, helps with haltosis and whatnot. But I read in another book, the toxicology of the eye ear and other special
+
+[26:56] senses by Andrew Wallace Hayes, that, yes, in fact, taste buds do get abraded, right? And taste cells do get damaged by abrasion. However, it only takes about 10 days. The average lifespan of a taste receptor cell is about 10 days. They're getting turned over all the time. So if you upbraid some, right? And you ruin some, they're just going to grow back. So it's not like you're going to get any sort of permanent long-term loss from scraping or from
+
+[27:22] rushing, and you have to think about this is that if you have some sort of stank taste in your mouth, right, that's going to affect your palate as much
+
+[27:30] as, you know, wiping away a few taste buds. wouldn't you think so Nastasia? Now, it is true that you should not brush your teeth anytime close to when you're going to be tasting or cooking. In fact, there's a whole body of research out there on how to neutralize the effect, the effect of brushing teeth in tasting
+
+[27:49] panels, because it's a huge problem in the industry where they're doing tasting panels, and taking notes for food manufacturers, for coffee, et cetera, et
+
+[27:58] cetera. People who brush their teeth and then try to tasting because toothbrushing and toothpaste wipes out your palate for a good length of time. So there's a whole, I didn't get a chance to go reread all that. There's a huge research body on that. So you should not brush your teeth with toothpaste anytime near when you're going to be eating, eating professionally. And if you do, you should be chewing on a bunch of carrots and drinking a bunch of stuff to wash away the
+
+[28:22] toothbrush tastes. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Ryan Santos writes in, hey, David Nastasia, happy New Year. I recently acquired some locally raised pheasants. Having no experience with them, I was hoping to get some suggestions on how to prepare them whole roasted, sous vide, whichever. They're all 2 to £3 It's small. And cooking recommendations seemed to vary widely from 15 to 20 minutes to one. 5 hours help. Okay, here's the problem with pheasants. Pheasants are delicious, but they're very easy to overcook. The legs are tough and the breast, if it overcooks, is useless. That said, pheasant delicious, right? Now, there's 2 basic ways you can do this. I would never cook for one. 5 hours. That's just too dang long. If you want to do a roast pheasant, just a super high temperature to crisp up the outside, get some nice flavor without overcooking it. I've done that. I've grilled pheasant over like raging wood fires. Basically, the outside was burnt. The inside was raw and it was still delicious, you know, back in the day. If you want to do it low temp, which is, I think, going to be the best way to get kind of a high end result out of it, what I would do is I would cut off the breasts, right? Then cut off the legs, cook the legs separately. You could do a braise of the legs or whatever because they're going to be tough anyway. Take the bones, make a stock with it, take the breasts, cook them at around 57 degrees Celsius
+
+[29:38] for, and they're very thin. So I would cook them only for like 20 minutes. Uh, let them cool down, right? And then quick sear, like not like rendering duck fat, but like quick
+
+[29:48] sear, very high to crisp up the skin on the outside, serve them and you're done. That's what I think you should do. What do you think? Maybe 58. What do you think? Nastasia doesn't really care. Okay. So, should we go to our 2nd break or no? No? Okay good. Sebastian writes in. Hey, David Nastasia. By the way, in case you have a question, call in too, 71-4972, what do you eat this? 497-2128. Hey, David Nastasia, I love that you guys have put together such an amazing radio show. Amazing radio shows. Thank you very much. I'm a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America and love that I have a resource for learning about advanced and cutting edge cooking techniques. Here are my questions. I've been making root beer from scratch using the recipe from America's Test Kitchen. You can find the recipe at www Americans, test fishing key, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Look for online, America's Test Kitchen, uh, root beer recipe. The root beer is quite delicious and amazing. It's carbonated with yeast and has a great depth of flavor. The only thing I'd like to improve is the head. It has a small head when it is 1st poured and then dies off very quickly. Is there something I can do to make it have more of a Guinness type, long lasting head that would be nice and foamy? Perhaps adding some liquid, less it then would do the job, or would I add, or what would I, or what would I add to it? Do I have any recommendations for percentages to try? Or is there anything else to get this effect? Thanks, Sebastian from Napa Valley. All right, Sebastian. I wouldn't go with Lesser thin for this. Uh, less than Nas wouldn't go for it for this. What I would use, what the pros use for beer stabilization is, I mean, you can use gum Arabic, by the way, as a bodying
+
+[31:17] aid, and that's fairly, you know, friendly. Also fairly expensive. And that can be used to stabilize the head a little bit, although I've known having
+
+[31:26] experience with it. The really the thing for stabilizing the head of beer and whatnot. They have newer ones that are cheaper, but it's propylene, glycol, alginate, PGA. And you can buy it from a homebrew shop under the name heading powder, or
+
+[31:42] professionally one of the brand names of its stable foam. And what PGA is, is it's a modified algernate, just like seaweed gel like you get now. PGA is one of the 2 or 3 hydrocoloids that are used by people that aren't all natural. It doesn't occur in nature. And it's also fairly expensive, but unlike Algernate. It is very good in acidic environments. It's extremely stable. It's just a good stuff and use it in very, very low quantities, like somewhere in the range of like 80 parts per 1000000 or something like that, very low quantities. Usually you'd make a water solution with it and then add a little bit of that water solution to your product before you do the final fermentation with the yeast. Okay. Um, This is what you add to beer, basically, for a super, super stable, stable foam. So I would I would do that. If you have a problem with using something that's not 100% natural like PGA. There are other things under the, under the, they're basically beer foam stabilizers that you can add, but I don't know what they're made out of. I assume it's like some sort of like busted up pecked in or some sort of crazy thing that's, you know, maybe a little bit cheaper than
+
+[32:51] PGA, or maybe a little bit more natural, you know, than PGA, but
+
+[32:57] that's what I would go for. The other thing is that the head in beer is related to the, is related to the kind of surface active
+
+[33:08] principle, of the, of the liquid itself, which is why different liquids, with the same amount of CO2 in them, can have different kinds of heads in them, and why beers, which have like a lot of, especially those thick ones that have stuff left over from the, from the barley and whatnot, have a bigger head,
+
+[33:23] you know, gaining potential. So there are probably other ingredients you could add to your root beer that would increase the
+
+[33:29] head. I don't happen to know off the top of my head what they are. I just know this, you know, the whiz bang, add the PGA and go. But I would definitely research that. There's been a lot of research done in the beer head. point. Yeah? Good job. Yeah. Okay. Now, Andrew Switzer writes in with something that Nastasia, I don't know whether you checked it out, but
+
+[33:48] yeah, so this is about Nastasia's famous, but as
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+[33:53] yet unphotographed vegan face. And Andrew writes in and says that you should go to YouTube and type in sugar honey iced tea that a vegan would say. That's my way of saying that curse word on a family. Remember a family show now. I wonder how that project worked out, by the way. Anyway. They said it worked out well. They called back in, remember? Again? No, I mean, after that, they were still working on it. We're talking about the low temp sous vide thing. Anyway. So, yeah, crap that a vegan. say crap that a vegan would say, although it's not crap, it's another word. It starts with S. But you can look at that, but that guy doesn't have a vegan face. Like it's his normal face. Yeah. Well, he's a vegan. He is a vegan and he has a face. Right. But he's not making... the face of a vegan. That's the face of a vegan, not nastasia's vegan face. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, speaking of not vegan. My older son, you know, Booker says, daddy, I like candy. Candy's my favorite. Dax, my younger one goes, I like meat. like that? That's good stuff, man. They like bagels too. Why are you trying to get me started on the air? Nastasia, by the way. So yesterday, any of you who have kids know that you take a kid out to lunch, you take the kid out to lunch, they don't
+
+[35:01] eat. You're spending a lot of money and they're like, 1st of all, if they're not eating, what are they doing? They're shoving their finger up their nose, they're sneezing on the person next to them without covering their mouth. They're doing all sorts of horrible things because, of course, that's the way it works and they're not eating. So you're spending money and they're not eating and what happens? You get angry, right? Yeah, right. So then, uh, Nastasia, I had a problem, a piece of equipment broke. I was like, Nastasia, can you help me out? And can you, you know, watch the kids for a second? Yes. And so then she goes and takes them out and buys them bagel, which sounds like a really good thing, except for basically it was a way, it was an end around for them to not eat the lunch that we bought them,
+
+[35:37] right? Right. And then nostalgia's like, oh, whatever. why am I even getting into this? This is crazy. All right. Let's go to our 2nd commercial break? Call on your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[35:56] If I had a time for every time I dreamed about you. Dreamed about you. Yes, I'm really broke, thank you. Girl, without you.
+
+[36:25] And a heart, turn what should I
+
+[36:30] know? When you call me, darling, a little bit different.
+
+[36:44] You said to follow me.
+
+[36:52] You're saying that you need me, Mama. And welcome back to cooking issues. What was that one, Jack? More Delphonics. Nice, beautiful. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. By the way, in case you were wondering, if I shouldn't do this, this is ridiculous. I'm going to get I'm going to get sued for this. Nastasia wants me to do this. By the way, I am basically just Nastasia's puppet for this movie. But you're promoting his who he is. Yeah, but does he want promotion? Yes. Yeah, yeah. All right. So those of you, those of you who have listened to the show, you know, a lot. You might know that there's a character here at Roberta is a waiter that we call Indie Jesus. And we found out his name so that you can go look at his Facebook profile and you can see, you know, kind of what we're talking about. Because, you know, very rarely, we're hearing a box. don't know what we're talking. No, nostalgia. read his name aloud because I can't read your writing. Dante is his 1st name. Damian is his middle and dolly. Dolly is his last name. All right, so, you know. You should friend, be a fan, be a fan. Be a fan. Be a fan. We want you to be a fan. I say we set up a date between Nastasia and him. Look, this is this is not a hate throwdown. This is a This is a love. This is a love thing. This is a love thing. Okay. Okay, Mark Younger writes in. Hi, Dave and Nastasia. Ive been listening to the podcast since late last spring and I finally caught up. I noticed a day frequently gives low temperature cooking times but that he never states at what temperature the food is when it is placed in the circulator.
+
+[38:37] Well, for longer times, it just probably does not make any difference. There are occasions when he talks about cooking some items, e.g. fish, for relatively short periods of time. So is there a general assumption that everything is coming straight from a refrigerator and therefore with a temp
+
+[38:50] in the high 30s or is there some other assumed starting temperature? Thanks, Mark Younger. Okay. This is an excellent question, actually, because we really haven't addressed this issue. And the temperature at which the product starts does have an effect, obviously, on how long something takes to cook through. Now, most of the work that I do, I'm assuming that something's getting pulled straight from the
+
+[39:13] fridge, just because I don't have time to have stuff sitting around for, you know, forever. And so most of my work is straight from the fridge with a, with, I know there's some exceptions, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Most of my stuff come straight from the fridge. That said, if you have a different temperature, there are programs like
+
+[39:31] sous vide dash that we talked about before on the program that will allow you to put the starting temperature of the product in so that you can figure out how long it takes. The other thing is, is that I typically, um, on something like a thin piece of fish, it's true that you don't want to cook it for too
+
+[39:49] long. You don't want to cook it for, you know, more than 20 minutes or so, but that's enough
+
+[39:53] time, typically, to make it up to temperature, whether or not the product, if it's thin, very thin. Uh, whether the product starts at, you know, 38 or 48. Uh, you know, Fahrenheit because it's just, you know, you have much more time than is needed. So I usually try to build into my cooking technique enough time to make up for any sort of variance there is based on the initial temperature of the meat. Obviously, it's a big deal if you're trying to do a delta temperature or if you're working with razor thin Martians. For instance, if you're doing fish that is cooked alaminute and you're using a delta tea. Let's say you're cooking a fish at in a 60 degree water bath, but you only want the inside to make it up to like 55,
+
+[40:35] 56 Celsius now or on Celsius, apologize going back and forth. But then, obviously, the initial starting temperature is going to make a big difference. Because in that case, you're, you know, counting on the seconds being right when you're cooking. And so for that, it's absolutely vital. Temperature be the same every time. I don't think it's so vital if you've built in like a good 10 to 15% overage on the amount of time you're
+
+[40:59] cooking, which is typically I'm at least at that number. But still, it's an excellent question and something that should be addressed. I think fridge temperature is the easiest temperature because it's usually within, you know, two, 3 degrees. And so, uh, it's a good thing to start from. And again, as long as you can repeat it, then it doesn't really matter, right? If you did everything and it always start at the same temperature, then it wouldn't matter. It would just work the same. You just correct recipes, but fridge is easy to maintain and that's what I use. Yeah? Okay. Harlan writes in. Hi, Dave and Nastasia. I just ran across this great article in Smithsonian on potatoes. Have you seen it? I had not seen it. Go to Smithsonian, Smithsonianmag.com. How the potato changed the world. Uh, and then Harlan writes in. There must be amazing kick-ass French fry possibilities in 1000s of varieties of potatoes they've got in Peru. Well, there are some amazing books on potatoes out. The article, by the way, is cool. You should read the article, but there's some amazing books about potatoes. I have one by the Brooklyn Botanic. Brooklyn Botanical Garden has a whole series of books, by the way, one of which is
+
+[42:04] like tubers of the world, which is pretty cool, pretty kick butt little book. But here's some stuff that I thought was interesting from that article that I will share with you. This is a quote from the article. While potatoes are laced with solanine and tomatine, toxic compounds believed to defend the plants against attacks from dangerous organisms like fungi, bacteria, and human beings. Cooking often breaks down such chemical defenses, but not Solani and Tomatine. This is why, by the way, when a potato turns green, that's chlorophyll, but it also indicates that other things are happening, including an increased
+
+[42:35] solinine level, which is why you shouldn't eat potatoes that are green, or if you do, you should peel the hell out of them, which we've actually talked about on the show before. However, here's the cool thing. In the mountains, um, of uh, in the mountains, these animals, I can't even pronounce, uh, lick clay before eating poisonous plants, the toxins absorb to the fine clay part of particles in the animal's stomach passing to the digestive system without affecting it. Mimicking this process, mountain peoples apparently learned to dunk wild potatoes in a gravy made of clay and water. How cool is that? Eventually, they bred less toxic potatoes, though some of the old poisonous varieties remain favored for their resistance to
+
+[43:11] frost, and clay dust is still sold in Peruvian and Bolivian markets to accompany them.
+
+[43:15] So, 1st of all, there's this famous recipe from Mugritz, right, about dipping clay in, sorry, dipping potatoes in kaolin, which is clay, right? Uh, and kale and also great adsorber. uses a wine finding agent. And so I don't even know if they know this. I don't even know if, you know, Andonian, those guys know this, but apparently this is a traditional thing to dip potatoes in clay or in some sort of
+
+[43:42] kalen thing. I thought that was pretty cool. Pretty cool thing. Another thing that they mentioned in the article are Chunio Blanco, which Chunio, we've, I've mentioned this before, I think, on the air, but this is kind of Inca freeze dried potato, and basically they, they, these potatoes are like frozen and then thrown in a well and then frozen and thawed again, and they, they dry out, like really like old school, like, you know, pre-technological freeze drying technology, and uh, nastasia and I made them thinking this is going to be the most awesome thing in the world, and they
+
+[44:12] smell like, uh, like a, like a goat bedding. Right? That's a nice way to put it, like, and tasted like a goat's bedding. And so, you know, I have a standing thing and I'll repeat it now. Here's a standing offer. I will give, I don't know, Jack, can I do this? I will give a heritage meat of some type. Can I do this? Yeah. Jack will pick out a nice heritage meat of some type, and I will give it to anyone that can phone or write in a decent way to prepare
+
+[44:43] chunio blanco potatoes. It doesn't taste like I just licked a live goat. What meat would go well with those potatoes? Goat. Goat. Well I don't know if we have goat. Oh, yeah, but oh, yeah, we can give away whatever you think, Jack. I'm sure, you know, I always want someone to write in with a good recipe. The last interesting, I'll mention from this article, extremely, extremely interesting, and it relates to goat poop, not really goats, but poop,
+
+[45:09] is, so apparently there's these islands that off of Peru, the Chincha
+
+[45:15] Islands that for, you know, millennia were coded in bird poop, bird guano,
+
+[45:20] right? And they started when they realized that guano had in it, nitrogen, it was useful for a fertilizer in the 1840s. There began a rush for mining or collecting guano, shipping it over to Europe to use as a fertilizer, right?
+
+[45:37] So literally people would go fill a boat up with poo and then take the poo across the ocean and sell the poo.
+
+[45:45] Right? Anyway, not, you know, it's no bat guana. It was birdguano. But anyway, you know, guano, guano's guano. Okay. Well, it turns out that the current research is that, and I can't pronounce it,
+
+[45:58] phytothora infestans, right, which is potato blight, right, was brought to Europe on a poop boat. Boat me and a poop? Well, a boat full of poop. Yeah. So they were filled with poop and one of those poop boats brought over the potato blights. So potato comes from Peru, and then also this blight, apparently the native stock is resistant, comes over, and that's what caused the potato famine. Poop boats. Anyway, Happy New Year from the poop boat. This is cooking issues. Oh, sorry. I have one more comment from somebody emailed in. Tell the my mic is screwed up. Tell the live caller about Corin for knives. Oh, yeah, duh. That's Brian. Okay, going out to Brian. Go to Coran Knives. I can't believe I overlooked this. I have actually bought some Christmas presents there for my for my mom. Here's my recommendation. Corn Knives sells like Japanese kitchen stuff, but they're known for their Japanese knives. It's the best Japanese knife place I've ever seen. Here's the only issue with it. Bring money. Bring lots of money because you can't go to Corin without spending a lot of money because it's just so amazing. Cooking issues. fish and vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[48:06] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. Now when my baby sees me, she's
+
+[48:21] gonna bust my head right in. Vicious, fish, vodka. Oh, you dirty rap. Got me on this corner. And I don't know.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
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+[0:25] anytime anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a 1st
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+[0:31] stepfather. Talk space made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talk space works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 co-pay, no insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your 1st month with promo code space 80 when you go to
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+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[1:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you every Tuesday live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn from 12 to approximately 1245. Calling all of your cooking related questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Joined as usual in the studio witness, Tasha, the hammer, Lopez. How you doing? I'm good Yeah? Good. Well, we haven't been here for a couple of weeks. Have a lot to talk about. A lot has happened in the in the last couple of weeks. Well, the most important one being, and I guess we'll talk about this more towards the end of the show, but we opened the bar. Whee! Yay! Booker and Dax, it's Sam is now open for business. And you can come to 13th Street and 2nd Avenue, where we've put our whatever it is, foot where our mouth is, whatever. Yeah, we're trying all of the techniques that for years I've been saying you can use in a bar or a
+
+[2:19] restaurant, and we're actually doing it, seeing where it's working so far, I think it seems to be going pretty well. Yeah. Yeah? You enjoy the drinks? You've been there as a customer a couple times. They're delicious. Yeah? All right. Anyway, we'll talk more about that later. And that's the reason we didn't have the show last week. I apologize. We were going to try to do the show last week on Tuesday, but it was our 1st day of friends and family.
+
+[2:37] And uh, let's just put it this way, uh, getting everything ready was, uh, what would we say, a poop show? Is that the family way to say it? Poop show? Yeah, poop show. Even though it was our friends and family who are very forgiving folks. you know, still quite a poop show. We armed it all out. Come, come, come to the bar. But the weekend before that, a week before that, rather, I was in Sweden, which I'd never been before, very nice in Sweden. I was brought there by the absolute people. The absolute vodka. was like, do you want an all expenses paid trip to Sweden and then get to go to an ice hotel and what are you going to say to that? But yes, right? So anyway, so I went, and I found out something interesting that I didn't know. Our friend, the bartender slash writer of New York Times, Toby Cicchini. Did you know he basically invented slash popularized the
+
+[3:26] Cosmo, the Cosmopolitan? I did not know that. I learned that, of course, you know, a proper Cosmo, if there's such a thing as a proper
+
+[3:33] Cosmo, it's actually an okay drink, right? It's just, you don't, like, Nastasia is giving her vegan face because she hasn't drink vodka drinks. So it's basically nastasia's vodka slash vegan face. It's actually, look, everyone has the gripe against vodka. It's fairly neutral in a mixed drink of vodka, so it's just a question of like, you know, any, whatever, I'm not going to get into it. Cosmo tastes fine. But in order to make a proper Cosmo, you need absolute Citron, which is why Absolute was talking about it, because the popularity of the Cosmo was coincided with the launch of
+
+[4:02] Absolute Citron here in the US. But the point of the story is, is that you would never peg Toby for the Cosmo guy. And by the way, I know there's a lot of argument as to who invented the Cosmo, like there's these people out in San Francisco that say they do it. don't really care. Absolute vodka basically says it's Toby. So if they say it's Toby, I'm going to go with that. In fact, Dale DeGroff, another one of our friends who was at the thing at the time did not dispute, he actually probably made it more popular because he was serving them to Madonna and Madonna drinking them in public, I
+
+[4:29] think guess was a major spur to its popularity. Oh, it was sex in the city. I believe Madonna came before Sex and the City. This is the problem with you being a 2 year old. But that made it mainstream. Sex and City was much later. In other words, it was already a popular drink. Sex and the City chose it as their iconic drink because it was already a popular drink among the inset in New York City of models and types like that.
+
+[4:49] Two-year-olds. She's not actually two, by the way. So, anyways, you would not expect this guy to be the Cosmo guy, because he's kind of a tall professorial dude who speaks, you know, in very measured tones and wears tweed
+
+[5:04] jackets. Would you expect that from the Cosmo guy? Anyway. Last thing I'll say about Sweden, is that I got to ride a dog sled. Dog sledding's pretty awesome. Dog sledding. Do you know that they they don't stop to poop or pee? They just pee and poop, whether they basically shoot it out while they're running, and then they also, they don't stop to drink, so they just eat snow while they're going. Wow. And that there's no rains. It's not like UConn Cornelius. There's no kind of whip or anything like that. You just basically tell the dogs go left, right, and they all run. Anyway, dog setting onto the cooking questions. I don't know how Joseph, I apologize. I'm going to brutalize your last name because it contains an umlat in a position I am not used to. But Joseph, uh, Petra. do you think, Petter? I don't know. P-E-T-H-O-Uma, Petter? Anyway, writes in about meatballs. Dave, I'm planning to make meatballs this week and I'm trying something new. The meatballs will be around 3.5 centimeters in diameter. That's like an inch and a half for us in inch land, right? Something like that. Cooked sous vide, but not really sous vide, because he says there's not going to be a vacuum seal so as not to destroy the texture. So Joseph, you're not really cooking sous vide, you're cooking low temperature, right? Sous vide, it has to kind of be under a vacuum. And remember, I make that distinction specifically because the health department gets in, you know, gets all hot and bothered when you use vacuum here in
+
+[6:19] the city, but not for low temperature. So I try to keep the term sous vide under vacuum, separate from low temperature, which is temperature control cooking. Or some people call it exact cooking or there's a bunch of different terms people use. Anyway, I'm going to cook them low temperature at 56 degrees Celsius, which is a good temperature for meatballs. If there's a high
+
+[6:39] port content, people might freak out. It's not going to be a health issue. But it's just a question of what people want. 56 is going to basically be a rare, you know, medium rare kind of a meatball. So if you want it to be medium rare, it will taste great. It's just a question of visually whether you want it to look that way or not. Okay. I cooked them for about 30 minutes. I would cook them actually longer if you want to tenderize the meat at those temperatures. See, when you're grinding it, you're tenderizing it, but in fact, you can tenderize the grounds even further. So when I do a hamburger, I'll cook it for several hours at 55 or
+
+[7:12] 56 to really tenderize and cook the meat. Anyway, for 30 minutes, and afterwards, the meatballs will be deep fried to finish them off at 350 degrees Fahrenheit for about 2 minutes.
+
+[7:22] He's just like I am. He fries in Fahrenheit and fries in Fahrenheit and cooks in Celsius, crazy, just like me, crazy. Anyway. A go higher anyway. 350 is a little low. Go to like 365 and you don't need a full 2 minutes, although you can. Um, I think they should give good results and was wondering what you think. Okay. When I cook meatballs. This is a technique I use, but you have to fry them before you cook them in
+
+[7:43] the Ziploc bags. And the reason why, is otherwise they'll stick to each other. What you want to do is get oil fairly hot and you want to flash fry for like 30 seconds, the meatballs, pull them out. Do not let them sit on a tray that will just break under their own weights at that point because you've heated the outside. So you want to put them directly into a bag. I usually put them into a bag with butter, but you probably could cook them directly in your meatball sauce if you want. And that's the way you cook them to stop them from breaking apart. Once they're cooked they won't be as fragile. You could pull them out, flash fry them. I obviously would bag them in something like butter and not in the sauce if you're going to do the flash fry afterwards because you can't fry the sauce. It would be a nightmare. Another point. 56 is going to be a little low for some of your customers. You might want to go a little bit higher, like 57, which is normally where I go. And another point that I make other than saying cooking longer than the 30 minutes that you're
+
+[8:36] cooking is if you mix salt in and you almost always mix salt in with your meatball mix when you're mixing
+
+[8:45] it. Um, it's the, the longer they stay, when they're cooked, kind of the firmer they're going to get, and the less you're going to have that kind of a low temperature
+
+[8:54] effect. But on the other hand, the saltier and more delicious meatballs will taste. So you have to kind of trade off how much salt and how much mixing, but you never want to make your meatball. You want to make your meatball mix right away, fry it, make your meatballs right away, fry it, and then put it in the
+
+[9:10] bag, and that's going to kind of give you your best results. And the more salt and the more kneading you do to your meatballs, the more they're
+
+[9:15] going to get firmly packed, like a, like a, like a sausage or like a puck, and the less there'll be like a hamburger. So it depends on how you want your meatballs. Some people like their meatballs very loose, in which case you're going to want to add
+
+[9:26] more wet, more filler, less salt, less kneading, or firmer, in which case more salt, more needing, and longer keep times.
+
+[9:36] That makes sense? Yep. Okay. onto the next question. Naveen, our good friend Naveen, from Harvard, who was the TA Hetia, I think, right? Yeah. Head TA in the Harvard's Food Science course, friend of ours and a vegetarian that Nastasia ruthlessly berates him for for no apparent reason.
+
+[9:58] Apparently. What apparent reason. He is the food TA. She's a food chase, so what? Why can't he be a vegetarian? How was he able to taste all of the wonderful things that those awesome chefs who go up there
+
+[10:11] do? 1st of all, it's not about that. It's about teaching like science and cooking. And you're there. There's not like they're making a lot of food for people to taste. Still, science and cooking, and he only eats vegetables. I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't get you. I don't get you. You don't eat half the things in the world you eat, but you don't like. I eat. Whatever. Anyway. Naveen writes in. It was great to see you at Harvard last year. We did a couple of lectures last year at Harvard. Several of the students told me how much they enjoyed your demos during the science and cooking class. Must have been somebody else. My demos were a poop show, right? Big show. Anyway, there is a group of them who are inspired to do more research into cooking related science projects as part of a spring class that they're doing. So I was wondering if you had any ideas for them, which could be free R&D R&D for you. This is actually a complicated question. I'd have to think of what would be kind of appropriate for an undergrad to experiment with
+
+[11:03] with the kind of level of cooking, that level of cooking equipment that they have there at Harvard. I mean, there's a ton of research that I would love to do that involves lab equipment that we don't
+
+[11:13] own, but not cooking. And, you know, some of the similar stuff that, uh, you know, Ariel, our friend Ariel is doing over
+
+[11:20] in, uh, at UC Davis with, um, checking how food reacts and doing qualitative tests on food. For instance, she's working on what happens to lime juice as it's stored over time. There's a whole bunch of tests like that that I like running. Um, I don't know. I'm going to have Naveen, are going to have to give that some thought. And also, if anyone out there has any interesting projects, maybe email them
+
+[11:39] into us, right? Naveen, I'm going to give you more thought on that. going to come back to you next week with some good ideas. By the way, speaking of R&D. One of my former interns, Liz Button, who has a restaurant in North Carolina, came into the bar last night for research. You like that? That's nice research, huh? Going to drink? That's some good research. I like to get that research job. anyway. Okay. We have a question in, actually, without a name, so I'm sorry, I don't know who you are. But says, hello, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Carlos. Jack actually not here today. Not here. Lazy. Just kidding, just kidding. One, my wife and I are going to be in New York City for the week of March 6th for our honeymoon. Wait. So are you already married or are you going to be married? Did you take a delayed honeymoon? Probably delayed. Everyone does the wait. Really? Why? They don't have the money. They don't have the time. Wait, so they want to get married on particular date, but they don't have the money and or time. You think it's more money or more time usually? Time. Time? They don't want to schedule the wedding for when they have time. Okay. I'm just trying to understand this. Because you got to remember, when I had my honeymoon, I was like 3 years old. I was 24 and I had nothing but I had no money, but it's not like I was
+
+[12:54] going to make money in the next couple of months after that and I had time, went to Italy. Italy. Anyway, I was like 17 years ago. Anyway, we are going to hit Roberta's for lunch on Tuesday. Roberta's honeymoon. Anyway, uh... Ask for Indie Jesus. Oh, yes. You have to get served by India. He's stoking for fire, right? Actually, he's stoking the fire, but he's like indie motorcycle Jesus now. He's got like the Greek fisherman's hat that like, you know, motorcycle dudes from the 50s and 60s used to wear, you know? know what I'm talking about? Looks, he looks, he's in rare form today, Indie Jesus. And he just, Indie Jesus decided before he came to work today what the temperature was going to be outside because he's got like a sheerling jacket on.
+
+[13:34] He gets outside. It's like a 1000000 degrees in New York today because of global warming. He's still wearing the warm jacket just because of the look. anyway. Love that, love that. Anyways, please get served by Ind Jesus. And yes, you can actually watch this tape our show. If that interests you. If you're here between 12 and 1245, you sit in the outside area, you can watch us tape the show. Uh, okay. And he imagines our secret operation will be up and running by then. Yes, it's the bar, the secret operation is the bar, and it already is up and running, so we can talk about it. Anyone can call in any questions about the bar right now they want to at 718-4972128. Uh, and we're planning on hitting a couple of the Momofuku properties while we're in town anyway. That means our project. Hopefully, the milk bar cookbook inspired my actual and next 1st question. What is the deal with glucose syrup? What I understand is it a mix? It is a mix of water, glucose, maltose, and other longer chain maltodex rims. Sounds like the ratio of those determines the sweetness and the viscosity and the total
+
+[14:32] solids content, which are all important. to uh, prevent uh, fermentation. I guess fermentation means of the syrup. I've got recipes calling for DE 40 and DE 20 glucose syrup, but at the store, I can just buy normal corn
+
+[14:46] syrup, uh, or more expensive clear corn syrup, which seems to have vanilla flavoring added. Any idea what the likely dextrose equivalent of these things in the supermarket
+
+[14:56] is? I've already have a big bag of dextrose. It was mean to buy a bunch of Ensorbit. anyway. Can I just mix up some homemade glucose syrups from powdered dextrose maltos and
+
+[15:04] malsodextrins? Are there standard ratios for the different DEs? I think that it's more community stock powders and sticky syrups, but does anybody actually do that? Okay, here's the problem. There's a lot of terminology, a lot of terminology issues. It's going to be very difficult for you to make glucose syrup from powder just because the bricks level of a,
+
+[15:25] well, it's really silly to call it bricks, but the solids content of those glucose syrups is upwards of
+
+[15:31] 80%. They're extremely stiff, extreme, you know, so you're not going to be able to make one of them without applying
+
+[15:37] heat, probably. You're not just going to be able to dissolve it and make it. You're going to have to heat it and then take it to a certain temperature. The answer for which temperature, which I'd have no idea. You're better off. They last basically forever. So you're better off buying a pail of it from like modernist pantry if
+
+[15:55] they sell it. I don't know if they sell it. They say they'll stock any dang thing. So you know, you should go get it. So, And for those of those that don't know what we're talking about, Glucose syrups are very unfortunately named thing. Glucose is, uh, obviously a simple sugar, and it is sweet, right? So sucrose is made up of glucose and fructose together. It's a, you know, a disaccharide, and that's what it is. Glucose starch, by the way, is made up of a repeating long, long repeating chain of glucose units. When you break down starch. You break it down into like starch, maltodextrins, and dextrins, which are, you know, longer, like shorter numbers of glucose units glued together,
+
+[16:40] right? All the way down to Maltose, which is a sweet sugar, which is 2 glucosis, right? So sucrose is a glucose and a fructose, maltose is 2 glucose. And then you break it all the way down to glucose. Now glucose, unfortunately, is known by glucose and dextrose, I don't know why they can't just have one name, but they have two, right? And the dextrose equivalent of a glucose syrup is the percentage of
+
+[17:07] sugars, not that they're glucose, because that would be or dextrose. That would be too damned easy, right? It's the percentage of the things in it that are what's called a reducing sugar. Glucose is a reducing sugar because I guess because of the aldehyde unit on the end of the of the thing. Anyway, so it's all very complicated. And and different sugars, different things with different DEs, right? Because they have different sugars in them. something can have contribute to the dextrose equivalent, but not contribute to the sweetness, right? So nothing makes any damn sense. There's no direct relationship between sweetness and dextrose equivalent or anything. Dexterous equivalent, typically, though, I mean, not typically, always. The lower the dextrose equivalent, the less sweet the product is, okay? And also, the lower the dextrose equivalent, basically, the less broken down it is. So the higher the dextrose equivalent, the more it's been broken down to glucose, and typically the sweeter it is. Okay? Now, the reason I think it's silly that they call it glucose syrup is
+
+[18:11] because it's not very sweet at all. You know what I mean? It's hardly sweet at all. I use it all the time and things like ice creams. I use DE20 glucose syrup when I want to take an ice cream and I want to get the texture right, but I don't want to have it sweet because it's really not sweet at all, a
+
+[18:31] DE20 compared to normal sugar or, you know, a very sweet corn syrup. So I'm not being very helpful. I wouldn't use Enzorbit. And Zorbit is a particular kind of... And so the reason it's the composition of those things is basically they take starch and they break it down into various soluble
+
+[18:48] things like maltodextrin, maltose, dextrins, and glucose. And Zorbit is going to be an expensive way to try and make it. You could, instead of trying to make a syrup, try to get the recipe by adding straight powders, but it's
+
+[19:01] going to be really complicated. I wasn't able to find anyone that does that. Uh, but I can look more and see that I can come up with anything uh, for uh, next time. Does this make any sense what I'm saying? We have to go to a break. All right, one second. 12nd. And the last comment is the show is great, guys. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. And Jack is doing an amazing job with the music. We'll see how Carlos does today. But how about bringing back doing it to death and bad, bad whiskey for one more show sometime? We'll think on it. Thanks so much. It's a rocky little record, I want my jockey to play. Roll over bees old and gotta hate it again today. And all my time, this is rising out the jukebox for the fuse. My heartbeat rhythm, my soul keeps a singing the blues. Roll over Beethoven, I dance, she cops you the news. I got a rock in pneumonia. I need a shot of rhythm of blues. Woo I think I call it on the line of sitting down by the rhythm review. Roll all the Beethoven, rocking in 2 by 2. Well, if you feel it like it. You get your lover and reel and bark it. Roll it over and move on up, just drive a brother
+
+[20:30] and a real rocket. Rolling over, roll over Beethoven, rocking. And welcome back to Cooking Issues, calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. The Beatles version of that song, huh? George. What do you mean, that's George? You said it was the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, I know, but it's George singing it. Beatles. Okay, yeah. So, obviously, I like the Chuck Berry version better. Nastasia probably likes the Beatles version better because she's a Beatlehead. What do you think? Beatles, Italy. That's all I think about. That's true. My question is, how do you get a rocking pneumonia? Like, in what sense is pneumonia rocking? Like, you, like, you try to breathe, you can't, because your monks are full of fluid. Like, what's so rocking about pneumonia? It's like the least rocking disease. Rock pneumonia. No, I got a rocking pneumonia. I need a shot of rhythm of blues. From rock music. He would prefer rhythm and blues. But rock and roll comes from rhythm, but it doesn't make any makes no damn sense. Makes no damn sense. And like nothing is less lung clogged than rock and roll. Think of a, think of a more. I'm saying his lungs are clogged with rock and roll. Rock and roll is non-clogging. It's a non-clogging situation. Yeah, whatever. ever. Anyway. And the Beatles are saying that their lungs are clogged with rock? Give me a break. Give me, give me, give me a big, give me a big break on that. just hate the Beatles. I do not hate the Beatles. Dave thinks the Beach Boys are far superior to the Beatles. I did not say that. What I said is well-known fact that at the time there was kind of like a rivalry of who could be more of a badass. And when pet sounds came out, everyone was like, oh my god, pet sounds like the most important blah, blah, album, blah, blah, blah. And then Sergeant Pepper came out and then Beach Boys were like, wow. Basically, that's the that's the rock and roll history in a nutshell on cooking issues. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of
+
+[22:30] supplies, and only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. I have a question. Isn't the home cooking enthusiast, the same person? No. Who's an enthusiast, not a home cook? Home cook or enthusiast. Because some women who work or who cook at home aren't enthusiastic about having to cook for their family. If they're not enthusiastic, are they calling modernest pantry to get some crazy ingredients? All right. And most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space, which is a big deal here in New York City. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH buffers or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, verified by us. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry now carries the complete line of texturist products by Faran Adria. Fans of cooking issues that place in order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free texturious ingredient to experiment with. Simply use the promo code, cooking issue. Oh, sorry, CI 69 when placing your order online at modestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. All right. Now listen, I love Faran, all props to Faran, love Faran, all props. My problem with the texturist line of ingredients. is that they don't say on them exactly what they are. So it's hard to sub other things out for it, and it's hard to develop recipes other than the recipes they've printed.
+
+[24:01] So, for instance, Farans, Jelan, it's just called, I don't forget what it's called, like Jelan or something like that. It's a mixture of 2 different gelands. I mean I happen to know what it is. It's like 25% of the stretchy, high acel stuff and 75% of the low acel, non-stretchy stuff. But, I mean, that's my one issue. I wish that they would just tell you exactly what's in it.
+
+[24:22] Because people would buy it anyway. You know what I mean? It not like they'd have to worry. It's not like people would go. People want to buy his product because it's been vetted by him. You know what I mean? But you should just tell you exactly what's in it because it's only going to foster better research by cooks. That's my only gripe. Would you agree or disagree? She hasn't really, she hasn't listened to what I'm saying. She just got she just agreed. No, it's just lots of emails for people. Yeah, but we're doing a show right now. We're doing a show. Anyway, I had another question about modernist pantry, but I forget. Anyway, they seem like good people. What? Good people. Good peeps, good people. Okay. Oh, yes, I'm an idiot. Okay. Okay, Matthew writes in, hey, y'all, pork shoulder I called in about last week. Of course, that's 3 weeks ago now, came out insanely good. I'm glad. I went for 58 degrees Celsius for about 34 hours. I brine it in a basic salt and sugar brine for 12 hours before cooking, seared it in a
+
+[25:17] cast iron grill. seared it in a cast iron grill, on a cast iron grill, probably, right? Or a grilled pan maybe. I'm not sure. And circulated it with olive oil, a bit of reduced vermouth and aromatics. My girlfriend said it was the best meat she ever tasted. I'm not nastachi. You are a messed up individual and this show is not going to go that way. So I was going to skip all past that. My girlfriend said she is the best meat she ever tasted. So that was good. One thing that surprised me was that the meat was not as pink as I expected, it would be at that temperature. It had slight rosiness to it, but not in medium rare appearances I anticipated. That didn't really matter as it was incredibly juicy and tender in a good way. Okay. Uh 2 things. One, when you cook something at 58 for only a little bit of
+
+[26:02] time, like an hour, it's going to be very, it's going to be very pink. When you cook for a long time at 58, it's going to be rosy, but you're going to lose some of that pinkness, that loss is also going to be enhanced by the
+
+[26:13] brining. I think the brining is going to firm it and also give you that color change a little more towards the other side.
+
+[26:19] So if you wanted to stay rosier, I would not brine it, but then you won't have the same flavor,
+
+[26:24] right? Or not cook it as long, but then you won't have the same texture. So I don't think you're going to get that color. Also, Bruno Gouseau, I mean, I can't even know where this came from because this is pulling out like information he gave
+
+[26:36] me like, you know, 8 years ago or something like that. But, uh, says that if you were to store that package uh, in very low, low temperature for a long, long time, the
+
+[26:46] rosinists would come back. weird, right? Anyway, he told me that a long time ago, of course, I've never run the test because I don't store unfrozen meats for a long, long time, which is not
+
+[26:56] my thing. My question today, however, just going back to what Matthew was saying, is about pork shanks. I'm going to be cooking about 30 pork shanks for an upcoming event. I doing. I'm leaning towards circulating them. I'm hoping if I max out my bath size, which is purportedly 30 liters for the sous vide professional. I can do them all in one batch. I plan to brine them overnight, sear them and then circulate them similarly to the pork shoulder for 34 hours or so, but at a higher temperature, maybe 65. Do you think this is a good time and temperature strategy? My goal is for them to be super tender and delicious, but not necessarily falling apart like a traditional braise. The 2nd part of this question is on deep frying them post-braise. The location of the event does not have great ventilation. I'd like to deep fry the shanks as far ahead of the guests arriving as possible, so that if I smoke the place out. It happens when people aren't around. After frying, I plan on letting them cool on racks and then heat them up in a cider, agrodolce glaze. Oh, more Italian. Glaze just before serving. Do you think they can hold next page? Well, for a couple of hours after deep frying before serving. Obviously, they won't be as crispy, but my only alternative would be to use the crappy broiler
+
+[28:01] in the household type oven present at the event to postseer them at service time. Uh, okay. And he says he would have called in this question, but hopefully as I answer this question, he's eating Lulu in Cartagena, which is good. Lulu is the amazing fruit that they eat in Colombia that makes great drinks. Anyway, I hope the lulo is delicious. I'm sure it is. You know, I can now find Frozen Lulo in New York. I bought some. It was okay. I bought my local supermarket, had like a package of frozen Lulu that I guess got shipped by mistake from
+
+[28:28] Columbia. I don't know, but it wasn't as good as afresh. I mean, probably make an okay drink, but it wasn't great. Anyway. So, 1st of all, 65 Celsius is, I think, too high. I think you're going to want to do 62 or 63 Celsius. 65 is a little bit over and it's the point where you're going to get a lot of contraction and you're going to get a lot more moisture loss from the muscle.
+
+[28:48] I would do six. I think 30 34 hours might be okay. You might want to go like a little bit longer and I would do it at like 62, maybe, 62 in that range. That's gonna give you a nice, not pink, really, nice texture. Uh, if you cook it for 34 to 48. Okay? But 65 seems a little high to me. And it won't fall apart. These things will never, they're getting mushy, but they won't break apart like a traditional braise. And the reason why is because the collagen, even though it gets soft and it turns to
+
+[29:22] gelatin, doesn't melt out of the structure, so it doesn't literally fall apart because it hasn't lost its structure. The structure's just gotten soft. Okay. As regards frying them post-braise. What I would do, you can, you can pull them out of the bag. I would pull them out of the bag, give them a quick fry before the people come to develop a little bit of a crust on the outside, and then I would throw them into a,
+
+[29:47] uh, I would throw them directly into the sauce in ziploc bags and keep them warm in your circulator. That's what I would do. Uh, Because, yeah, you're going to lose the crust, but it's going to soak up the sauce. I wouldn't keep them on racks because look, it's not the crust. It's most important on something like a braise. It's the kind of sauce and the integration. So I would let it integrate with the sauce. I would just put the crust to give you a little bit of variation between the outside and the inside. Um, anyway, that's, that's my, that's my opinion. The other thing is, is if you're going to, uh, cook it this way and you want it to taste the most like tender meat and not like a traditional braise, I would do the low temperature on the stuff without a sauce at
+
+[30:25] all. And without salting it, although if you're going to brine it, it's going to be brine. going to have salt in it. But if you want to taste the most like fresh, like fresh pork, but only a shank and cooked, then I wouldn't salt it at all, and I would just add the salt and everything else went right before you fry it, and then
+
+[30:42] bag it with the sauce and the sauce will soak in. That up to you. But if you are going to cook it with a sauce in the bag, then you're going to have to
+
+[30:49] hyper, hyper reduce that sauce, or otherwise when the meat gives up its juices, it's going to taste poached, which is I don't think what you're looking for.
+
+[30:56] Another thing I'd be very careful of is if you're going to max out your bags, uh, your, your, if you're going to max out the size of your circulator, right? You're going to have a problem because you could possibly have a problem because all of the meat is touching each
+
+[31:10] other and in the center, it's going to take a long time for the meat to get up to cooking temperature, right?
+
+[31:16] So if it's sitting there for, and it takes a good five, six, 7
+
+[31:20] hours, for the center of the, of the packages of meat, because there's no circulation there to come up to temperature, you could have a problem with uh, lacto, uh, lactic acid bacteria growing in that bag, probably won't kill you, right? But it's going to smell terrible and you're going to get puffed up bags. And this is what happens all the time when people pack their circulators too tight and they're cooking at a low temperature for a long period of time. So what's the remedy? There are several remedies. One, don't pack it too tight. The 2nd one is to take a pan of a pot of simmering water and put the bags in for
+
+[31:59] like into the simmering water for like 35, 45 seconds, right? When the meat is still cold, and you're killing the bacteria on the outside without doing too much overcooking, and then put them in a circulator bath. And then you've killed all the bacteria on the outside. And you're not going to have a problem, right? Make sense? anyway. Uh, so those are my uh, those are my comments. What do you think? you think I need to say anything else about that? I don't think so. No? Should we go to our second commercial break? Okay. Let's go to our 2nd commercial break. Cooking issues. Remember the foul. This was the land that it works by hand. It was the dream of an upright man. There was a room that was filled with love. It was a love that I was proud of. This is a life, but a life that it planned on the love, the same old love in the house, the
+
+[32:53] Jackson, the hostage jacket. Remember this house. There was a fence that hell now, love. Yes, it was the case that it walked out. This is my heart, it is turning sound. Yes, it is a house. It ain't no more. This is a love that I can start on, that I tried with love in the house, that Jack feels, the house to Jack, I'm
+
+[33:16] going in my house. The youth of crying. You know, I brought it all myself as knowing that. But it's easy. Some of funny.
+
+[33:33] That I didn't understand. And welcome back to cooking issues. Call Your Questions 2 718-497-2128 718-497-2128. And the house that Jack built, signifying that Jack is back in the studio, people. Howdy, how you doing? So I take back my laziness comments also. Oh, wow, really? I missed all that. I was, you know, when you're not here, I rough you up. That's how it works. Oh, man. Even though I wasn't here last week, so like... You should hear what we say when you're not here. It's still on the radio. Oh, man. Oh, we're going to have one of our listeners is going to come in on, on, uh, in the week of March 6th on Tuesday and hopefully going to be served by Indie Jesus. We have to check his schedule. Right? Anyway. Uh, Ken Ingberg, long, longtime listener, Ken Ingberg writes in and says that he's asked me several questions about the new coffee machine, the
+
+[34:25] Breville 900 XL, which I say I've never tried. He bought one and he likes it. So maybe we'll get to try it someday. I don't know. You know, Dave Chang, and Christina Tozi from Milk Bar. Breville loves those guys. Brett, like, if you walk into Milk Bar. commissary, right? It is basically, it's like a Brevel factory. There's like so many Brevel things there. But again, I have no I have no comments, but Ken seems to enjoy his. and this is a long-term. Someday I will try one and I will give my review on air of the new... I think I think they're going to stop by the bar this week. Revelers? people. Really? and give you one. Well, look, the gig with the Breville thing is that it was apparently designed by a like a barista, like an award-winning barista to be good for what they want.
+
+[35:13] Again, but you know, my problem is, is that, and it's the same problem. We lost that sponsor that time is because if I don't know whether a product's good or bad, I won't say whether it's good or bad. No, you're just saying. What? Probably bad. That's not true. Look, those guys, I'm not going to mention any names, but those guys who stopped being our sponsor after I started wisecracking made marketing claims that did not make sense to me. Right? I mean, I mean, you know, I do have my limits, Nastasia. anyway. Uh, okay, have an interesting question in, uh, from, uh, Julie
+
+[35:47] Madras of, how do you think you pronounce that town in Wisconsin? Beloit? Beloit? It's not Belois. Hopefully. Hopefully, hopefully it's not pronounced like the actual French, you pronounce it. Gods and people with the French accent on that. Really? Yeah, I guess not, right? Belowie. Anyway, Julie Madress writes in. I have been looking forever for a website that could show me all of the fish that are skinfish. Now pay attention, skinfish. My mother has allergies to shellfish and scale fish, and we find it very hard to get straight answers from the grocery stores, seeing how half of them are
+
+[36:21] not, what do you see? Half of them are not manned like it used to be in the meat department. So in other words, there's no one there to tell you what's going on. So I thought it would be right I thought it would be right to you with your knowledge about food to see if I can enlist your help. We try very hard not to give her something wrong, and she just loves fish. All right. This is an interesting question. So off the top of my head, before I did any research, right? It seems to me that it's actually not the scales. I'm gonna, let's ignore the shellfish because in shellfish, you know what to stay away from. So the question is, scale fish versus skinfish. Now, my right off the top of my head, for me, it says 99%. It's not the actual scales, right? that is the problem. It's just that scale fish are the problem, which means that all fish that, uh, in that same group are the ones that cause a problem. Sure enough, that's the case. Most fish allergies, right? Finfish allergies are allergies to certain proteins, parvalbumen, certain parvalbumens that are in fish, and they cause
+
+[37:23] a an allergy, because your body, or some people's body, develop a specific antibody
+
+[37:29] system, and they have allergic reactions, okay? Now, here's how the world works. Basically, you got to look at the evolutionary chain. So you go keep going back in the evolutionary chain, uh, to the point where the 1st fish developed those proteins, they're uh, that your mom's allergic to. And then any of the fish that branch off from that, she's probably allergic to, right? So it turns out that what she's most likely allergic to, is Teleost fish, right? And Teleos fish are fish with what's called ray
+
+[38:06] scales, and so they're scales, normal, normal scales. So all you need to do to find out whether or not you should stay away from it, most likely, is to look and see whether it is a Teleost fish. Now, what's a non-teleos fish? Eels, lamp rays, sharks, right? Like any cartilaginous fish, right? Typically not gonna probably be probably be a problem. Uh, anything that's not a part of that group. Now, there's also most likely a bunch of teleost fish that are okay. I just don't happen to know what they are. And for the research backup on this. I found it an article that's called Quantitative Eliza for Determination of Fish and Foods by Christian Fest and Christian
+
+[38:50] Plass in 2007, where they were trying to figure out ways to measure with an Eliza
+
+[38:56] test to look for these allergens that are in food. And basically, what they say is that the allergic reactions are strongest for taxonomically closely related species,
+
+[39:08] right, due to the major allergen in fish, which is
+
+[39:12] parvalbumen. And that accounts for over 95% of all allergens, fish allergy, it's basically 95% of the allergies related to
+
+[39:25] finfish are because of this protein, right? And so parvalbumens are found in great amounts in the white muscles of lower
+
+[39:33] vertebrates and lesser and higher vertebrates. Anyway, so that is that. So just look up and see what kind of fish you're dealing
+
+[39:44] with and you shouldn't have a problem, right? Nostalgia is like, that makes no goddamn sense. No, no, no, no, no, no. So Nastasia, and you're going to have to look up from your email for a minute because we're going to talk about the bar now on the way up. is upsetting. He's upsetting you. Why is he upsetting you? Why is he upsetting you? Why can is our good friend? show, he says. It looks like rebels giving you your own 900 XL. And I was like, yes, but I didn't want to say that they're giving it to us 100% because it's not for certain. And then you said, Dave is right. Stop reading your email. And I was like, well, then don't email me in the middle of the show. Wow. Wow. See, now, Ken, now you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis. I was right on Ken's side. Oh, squarely on Ken's side. Look, a listener, look, a listener is just like in a restaurant is your customer. They're always right. Right? Am I wrong about this? anyway. Jack's not answering. Jack's not sure We have a lot of different listeners on this network. Anyway, I'm coming down squarely on Ken's side on this one. Anyhoo. So let's talk about the bar for a minute. All right? So what do you want to say about the bar? Nothing, it's a great space. There's usually a wait, so make sure you get there early. Yeah, or can we call in advance? Can you call in this? You have to show up and put your name in. You're equipped for that yet. Yeah, our bar manager is Tristan Willie, who is at, you know, Death and Co's sister bar,
+
+[41:13] Mori Margot, and also at PDT. And he's having a great time, I think. We have, we're, we're, we're pulling out. We haven't pulled out all the stops yet. We still have some stops left to poll, you know, if you were using organ terms. We still have some stops left to pull. But right now we have 4 carbonated things on the menu, and I think we do a pretty good job of carbonating. I'm not, I haven't put on my new carbonation system yet. First of all, I'm building a new one that's going to be, like, it's going to be really good. Let me put it this way. It's going to be really good. I was going to say, it's the Cadillac of carbination systems, but that makes me look bad because it's better than it's like the Maybach. It's the Maybach of was that good? Is that what they're called? really expensive car? Anyway, a really good carbonation system I'm putting in. For now, though, we're using old school bottle carbonation, the same as everyone uses with the carbonator caps, the liquid bread carbonator caps, just because that's the best system that I've used so far. The system that I've built, my 1st generation system that I built is maybe 80 to 90% as good as
+
+[42:17] that, but has the advantage of being a la minute. But until I'm 100% as good as the bottle or better, I'm not going to use it. Does that make sense? Um, we have a uh, finally, illegally, uh, a legally roto vapped uh, product on our menu, we have the a horserash, which goes into our
+
+[42:35] Lady of the Night, which is a really, I think it's a good cocktail, um, which also has, it's basically a clarified
+
+[42:41] Bloody Mary, but just, you know, everything's clarified. The Worcestershire's clarified, the tomatoes clarified, the srirache is clarified, and then use the horseradish distillate. So we have Rotovap, we have the centrifuge. We're figuring out how bar prep works to have all of those things prepped for a bar. It's kind of halfway between the kid prep and a bar prep. But it's pretty interesting. And I think we've ironed out most of the kinks as far as service goes. So I welcome any questions on kind of flow at the bar or how it's working or what we're
+
+[43:10] doing and we're liquid nitrogen chilling almost every day in glass, right? That's the bartenders seem to enjoy that, right? People seem to enjoy. Oh, and we have the red hot poker on the menu. I've never had a red hot the red hot poker, for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about. It's basically a, it's a poker that is red hot. It's a stick that I build that heats up to about 1500 Fahrenheit and you plunge it into a drink and the drink catches on fire. And I've used them at the SCI before, but they've never been on this long this often before.
+
+[43:37] So, uh, we're really putting them through their paces and seeing how to make them make them work. I streamlined it. They now cost less than $100 for me to make a piece. And so hopefully, uh, we can uh, the bartenders don't seem to mind it, right? No, no, not anymore. No one's gotten burnt. Anyway, it's a lot of fun. So come in, have some red hot poker drinks, have some, have some liquid nitrogen chilled glasses, but most of all, at Booker and Dax at a new bar, we're just trying to make delicious cocktails.
+
+[44:06] We use a lot of tech, but really the tech doesn't matter. It's all about delicious cocktails. On a final note, now that I have that thing, started up, and I have all of a lot of other things in motion. I'm going to try to get the blog back up and running again. Nastasia is giving me my whatever face. She has 2 faces. The vegan face slash vodka face is a face of kind of disgust, like she just stepped on a roach,
+
+[44:29] whereas, uh, whereas this other lake is a look is a look of, eh, whatever, you know, whatever, right? That's the blog starting look, but I got to figure a better name for it. Anyway, it's good to be back. Sorry about the 2 week wait. Be back next week, sure thing. Cooking issues.
+
+[44:50] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[45:05] heritage radio networks in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[45:12] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live. On time and live from the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:31] Network, here in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez in the engineering room. We have Jack and Carlos with us today. Hello. Hello. Call in all your questions. 2 718-497-2128. Is that right? 718-497-2128 Cooking questions? Any kind of questions, really. Well take anything you got. Is that true and stuff? That's true We take them all. Okay. So, anything good happening? No, we only have 45 minutes. so you should get through. See, but the customers don't care about that. Okay. Yeah. You can save that for the break. So the, uh, so, and they're actually, we're gonna, we're gonna, there are some, there are some listener comments on
+
+[1:09] Nastasia later, which we'll get into. Yeah, it should be fun. So this is the 2nd week of the Booker and Dax bar that we opened, Booker and Dax at some. How you think it's going there, Nastasia? Oh, wonderful. Well, from a drink standpoint. Great. Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's, it's different. you know, starting something. It's a lot of fun. anyway. Hello, Dave and Nastasia from Matthew. I'm a longtime listener, a 1st time emailer. I was recently gifted with a, okay, now here's it's a knife, right? We're talking about a knife here. I've never actually pronounced the brand out loud. It's very well regarded knife. It's spelled Gless stain, but I believe it's pronounced Glyston, G-L-E, S-T-A-N-S-T-A-N. Anyway, I was recently gifted with a Glyston Gyotu, which is a Japanese, it's basically a Japanese chef's knife,
+
+[1:59] like looks like a Western style knife, but is Japanese. So, uh, um, uh, Go-to knife, it's sharpened on one side, more on that later, and it's left-handed, uh, which means they paid a lot more for it because to get a left, 1st of all, like culturally in Japan, you know, there's no such thing as
+
+[2:15] left-handed. It's like, what's wrong with you? You like, use your right hand. You know what I mean? So like the left-handed one and Japanese knives typically are handed because they're not sharpened with
+
+[2:24] a symmetrical bevel the way Western knives are. But again, more on that later. My question is, how do I properly steal this? And how do I properly, how do I properly sharpen it on a stone? Any other general techniques, tips for using a sharpening stone would be great too, as I am new to self-sharpening and having nicer knives? Thank you, Matthew. Okay, look. Uh, okay. Traditional Japanese knives. And 1st of all, if you want to, we'll talk more about Corin later, but anyone who comes into New York needs to stop by Corin K-O-R-I-N, their knife place because it's fantastic. And you can see firsthand, a bunch of different styles of knives and really get a feel for kind of what the differences are. It's a fantastic place. So it's in down near where the trade center used to be. Uh, and so if you, um, a Japanese traditional knife is
+
+[3:18] sharpened, literally sharpened basically on one side only, almost like a Western chisel, uh, these knives are typically heavier and thicker on the spine, uh, and they have like a very, uh, very, very, very sharp because with the one angle, that one angle is
+
+[3:33] not uh, very big. And so you have a very, very sharp, but fairly fragile blade.
+
+[3:39] I highly I highly recommend those things. They're extremely easy to learn to sharpen because you basically, all you have, you have a very large bevel that you can see very easily. You sharpen that until a burr is raised up, right? Which means that you've taken all the way across. You can feel it. You draw your thumb across the opposite side from the side you were sharpening. You draw it down over the edge, and you can feel a burr, a little curl being raised up around it, and you know, you don't want to do it too much because you're, you know, curling over the edge, but you feel a light burr. And you know that you've sharpened all the way down. So when you're sharpening a knife like this or any knife, really. You feel all the way and you'll see a chef do this when they're working, they'll take their thumb and they'll prick it over the blade all the way down. And what they're ensuring is that a burr has been raised all the way along the edge of that blade and that you haven't sharpened too much in one place and too little in another. And the key to the one I'm talking about, the Japanese style or anything is basically recreating exactly the bevel that was put on there when they sharpen the knife.
+
+[4:37] Now, the beauty of a traditional Japanese knife is you get that one bevel, which is fairly easy to see. And then you just turn the blade over and it's almost flat on that. In fact, the backside of the blade is concave. So you just put the, you just lift the back spine ever so slightly off your stone and swipe it a couple of times to take the
+
+[4:54] burr off and you have a fantastically sharp knife, right? I love Japanese style knives. I went to corn. Unfortunately, their prices have gone up because the yen is, I guess, doing well against a dollar. So a knife that I bought like, you know, three, four years ago for around $100 is now like $180, something like that. But, um, if you are going to use a knife every day in a work environment, uh, the good old-fashioned carbon, uh,
+
+[5:20] i.e. they will stain, they are not stainless, Japanese traditional knives are fantastic to work with. Uh, because you know that after that shift of working, you're just gonna, uh, you know, take care of your knives and before or
+
+[5:32] after, sharpen them. and it takes very little time to sharpen them, bring them back into edge, and they just, they're fantastically fun to cut
+
+[5:38] with and they're awesome. Unless someone borrows your Japanese vegetable knife and hacks a bone with it and shatters the blade, which is what happened to
+
+[5:46] me. I want it. didn't find who it was because they literally went into my knife kit at the school, took it out of my knife kit when I wasn't there, hacked it up, put it away wet, and I got a
+
+[5:55] rusted, broken knife, and it's incredibly depressing. But anyway, so they're extremely easy to sharpen, and I highly recommend them. Now, on the exact opposite end of the scale, is a traditional Western knife. A traditional Western knife is sharpened with an identical bevel on both sides. So no matter what the angle of the cutting edge is, right, which is determined by how you hold the blade against the stone
+
+[6:16] as your sharpening, no matter what it is, it's the same on both sides of the blade, which means a
+
+[6:22] western knife. There's no such thing as a right-handed knife or a left-handed knife because it's symmetrical around
+
+[6:27] its cutting axis. These are also fairly easy to sharpen because all you have to do is get that angle right, okay? Now, you have your Western, you have your Japanese. Now, the Japanese knife manufacturers invented a new style a while ago. I don't know exactly when. It's basically a hybrid. a Japanese western knife. And Japanese Western knives are insane in that they are not sharpened
+
+[6:53] symmetrically necessarily. The other thing is that there is no manufacturer. no cross manufacturer standard for what the asymmetrical bevel is. And so you have to actually look at your knife. And what you typically do. If you're not good at seeing what the edge is. You just take a sharpie, and you mark on the edge of the blade with a
+
+[7:13] sharpie, so you can see where the bevel is on both sides, and then you take your knife gently against a very, very fine stone, and you try to get the angle right, and you look at the sharpie, and you see whether or not you've worn away the
+
+[7:25] sharpie, flat across the bevel of the knife. And if you have, you've gotten the same angle that the manufacturer made. Now, typical, also,
+
+[7:34] the way that they specify angles is insane. So when you talk about a bevel, you'll hear people say things like 70-30 or 90-0. And what that means, and by the way, your knife probably isn't sharpened on one side only, it's probably like
+
+[7:48] a, like somewhere between a 9010 and a 70-30. And when that means is, is that 70% of the bevel on the knife is on one side versus the other, right?
+
+[7:58] So if it was a 0 and a 100, then it would be 100% flat blade, which basically none of those Western style Japanese knives
+
+[8:04] are. Uh, and then, uh, you know, if 10% of the bevel is on one side and 90% of the other, it's
+
+[8:10] a it's a 9010 and you get the picture. But what that doesn't tell you is what the entire angle of the of the edge is, right? So if you were to sharpen a Western style knife and you were to have so that the bevel would be equal. That's what we call 50-50, right? Then you would say, okay, what's my total edge angle? And an older knife with kind of these, you know, less modern steel, the bigger the angle,
+
+[8:35] right? The less fragile your blade is, but the duller it is. And so, newer steels, you can get a total angle all the way down to like 17 degrees.
+
+[8:46] Some people go down to like 15 degrees. and my knives won't handle that. But like older style knives, I'm typically having it like 30 degrees, which is very wide for a modern standard, not as easier
+
+[8:55] to, they don't break, but, you know, not nearly as sharp. So you have to specify what the total angle is on the blade, and then whether or not that bevel is skewed one way or the other. Personally, I find Japanese Western knives a pain in the butt to sharpen. I don't like sharpening them. I've never been good at sharpening them. I'm very good at sharpening Western knives. Well, not very good. I'm good enough at sharpening Western knives, and I'm pretty, you know, proficient with Japanese knives, but I find the Japanese Westerns difficult. Now, the advantage theoretically of the asymmetric grinding is that it cuts differently. And so it's designed to cut for a left-handed person or a right-handed person. And bear in mind that in Japan when you're cutting that way, you're making very specific slices. And so if you were cutting with your right hand, the slice is always going to fall off on the right side. And so the bevel is designed to facilitate that kind of that kind of cutting. Your particular knife, the glycin knives are well known for what's called a
+
+[9:51] granton edge as well, which is a scallopy, uh, scallopy divots that are taken out of the blade. Those things have nothing to do with sharpness that reduces stickiness, supposedly, and I've never used one,
+
+[10:01] but, you know, a lot of a lot of friends that swear by it. Basically those little dimples prevent your food from sticking to the blade. Anyway, um, as for sharpening, it's, oh, by the way,
+
+[10:10] uh, if some of these knives can be reground to be 50-50 if you want to sharpen them like a traditional knife. Hold on sec, was it color or something like that? Are you just pulling on me because I'm sitting around my sleeve? She thought my shirt was polyester, so she stopped me in the middle of thing. It's not cut. Anyway. Uh, so, uh, so, so anyway, so you can regrind, if you, if it turns out that you can't get used to sharpening an asymmetric
+
+[10:34] bevel. You can have these knives reground. Some knives take to that better than others, and there's professionals that'll do it for you. When you're in New York next, go to Corin and or buy their knife sharpening video, it's insane. They're insane. Now, here's another thing. Don't believe the hype you hear on the internet about different kind of grits and different, you know, it's insane. First of all, there's no international standard for what grits are. So people who are buying Japanese water stones have fantastically high grits. think that they're, and a higher grit means a finer particle. They think that their sharpening stones are whooping butt on all of the American stones that we have. The fact of the matter is, is that the Japanese grit definition is wildly different and not even applicable to American grit definitions.
+
+[11:17] So it's not a one-to-one correspondence. So if you have a 3000 if you have a 3000 Japanese grit water stone, it does not mean that it's 3 times as sharp as an American stone rated at
+
+[11:28] 1000, all right? So just bear that in mind. Here's another thing. Japanese water stones are a pain in the butt. Any real stone needs to be dressed a bunch to keep it flat. They need to be watered or oiled when you're using them. I find them to be a pain in the butt. I don't use them. I use DMT diamond stones, which and I use their duo sharp 10 inch bench hone, which is big. You want a big, big stone to sharpen on because it means that you can get more of a swipe without having to lift your blade and reposition it, which means you can be more accurate and everything's
+
+[11:59] faster, everything's more pleasant. The DMT stones are awesome because they're small, they're light, and they for their size, and they store very easily. They last forever and they never need to be flattened again. Some people don't like it because they're purists, but everyone I've handed to, including
+
+[12:16] Nils was like, you know, who's like, oh, man, that no one wants that. And he used it. He bought one, right? So you want to get the, if you get it, though, you want to get the fine and the extra fine, which is the green dot and the red dot, and you flip it
+
+[12:28] over, and you start on the courser, which is the fine, and then you finish with a light, light couple of strokes on
+
+[12:34] the, on the extra fine side. Those things will last forever. It takes a little bit of a break in before they get as fine as they're going to get because there's some errant particles of diamond that are bonded on the surface. And once those get knocked off, It's very consistent, very good. I like it a lot, but, you know, your Japanese knife buddies will think that you're a Philistine, but crap on them because your knives are going to be incredibly sharp.
+
+[12:56] What do you think does? a good job. Good. All right. Now, uh, is there anything else I want to talk about that or is that good? All right. Never mind. Go to Corin. I wish the prices hadn't gone up so much. It was crazy. Two. Hi, Dave and Nastasia. First of all, Hardy Mazeltov on your new venture, which is the bar. I hope to check it out next time I'm in town. It's a bummer that I just missed the opening. Thank you so much for your advice on how to make a recent New York trip culinarily satisfying. By the way, this is from Brian, who called us earlier. Unfortunately, I didn't have as much time as I wish, but highlights included the Crudo and Gelato at Italy. Have you had cruder Italy? No. Really? Uh, I can't I can't stand the lines in Italy. It's crazy. It's like a madhouse. It's like I feel like it's madhouse. They must make more money than God, those guys. Yeah. The great, not the God makes money. doesn't need money or she. Yeah. The great spices at La Boite Epice, coming in from the freezing cold to a deliciously warm noodles at Toto ramen, which I haven't been to yet. You been there? Yes, my neighborhood. Was it good? Yeah, enjoyed. Good. And the corn cookie from Milk Bar. Our buddies at Milk Bar. The corn cookie is in fact my favorite cookie there. And a visit to JB Prince. And JB Prince, Chef Superstore. I love that place. Uh, which needed a tour guide to explain to me what all the cool crap was that was in there. It didn't say crap, it said something else, but I can't say it on the show. Today, my question is about dry aging various dry aging various meats and fish. I've heard of dry aged beef, of course, but this post, which is referenced from Chuck Eats.
+
+[14:27] you know, well-known blog, uh, about a meal at San Francisco's, uh, Saison restaurant, references aging fish and poultry. I'm especially interested in aging fish. How can I do it safely? Can I age filets or steaks or just the whole fish? The article referenced a 7 day aging for fish killed via Ikigime, more on that later, as well as an 80 day smoke tuna belly that had been aged and smoked periodically. It also mentions aging pigeons for 21 days, 43 days, 50 days, and 73 days. It also mentions that they were aged with their viscer intact for a while, 1st before dry aging. And what does that do? It also mentions that one of the pigeons had been salted to encourage fermentation. How can I guarantee that it won't spoil? I read in the latest lucky peach that McGee recommends dry aging take place in a dedicated fridge with the meat hung and using primal
+
+[15:08] cuts? But how can I do this method at home with poultry and fish? Okay, thanks so much, Brian. You ever watch Shogun when you were a kid? miniseries? Funny. So, you know, Western style, uh, you know, Western style game birds typically are killed and then hung
+
+[15:24] and tell what they're called high. And what that means is until they stink and they're about to fall apart. And one of the funny scenes when you're like, you know, a 10 year old watching Shogun on
+
+[15:34] the on the on the TV show is the Western guy, I guess Portuguese guy shows up, puts a pigeon up, hangs it, and the villagers think that this is spoiled, and so
+
+[15:44] someone, like basically, you know, literally takes it down and then commits
+
+[15:49] Sepaku for the act of ruining the guest pigeon. And when I was young, I was like, man, that's crazy. And I'm sure that's just some sort of like weird, like, uh, it's got to be some sort of weird racist thing from
+
+[16:00] that because no one's going to commit Stepaku over a pigeon. I just don't think it's going to happen. I just don't buy it. you buy that? I mean, some sort of punishment maybe for ruining the guy's pigeon, but Sepiku? Really? Anyway. 70s racism, there's nothing better. Okay. Um, But, uh, as far, uh, Ikigime. So Ikigime on Fish, the technique with Ikigime, is you take a large tuna, they always do it on because it's very expensive fish. I said this a 1000000 times before, so I apologize. You can just glaze over for a minute while I talk about it, is you destroy the brain, and then you do a technique called Shinkanuki, which means no spine, and you shove a
+
+[16:36] needle down the spine of the fish, destroy the spinal cord. What you're doing when you destroy the spinal cord is stopping any messages, electrical messages from getting to the muscles. And what that's doing is preserving the ATP, the energy, and the muscles. And what that's doing is allowing the muscles to go into rigor later and softer. The faster you deplete the ATP in a muscle, the faster and the harder it goes into rigor mortis. Fish flesh in particular, because it's so delicate compared to meat fleshes, tends to rip itself apart during rigor. If the rigor is too hard, and when it comes out of rigor, you're going to get more weeping, more loss of juices, more gaping in the flesh, and just an overall not as good texture.
+
+[17:17] The flavor is also affected. I don't really know why, from a scientific point of view, why the flavor would be affected, but in side by side taste tests, it is. So that's what the Ikigime is. Now, very widely held misconception that fish is better fresh. fish is best when fish is best, not when it's necessarily the freshest. So when I go into a market and I see a bunch of, you know, fish and they're so psyched that they just got the fish off the boat, but the fish is in hard, hard rigor because of the way it was killed and
+
+[17:48] died and you can see it's curled up and in a hard, hard rigor. Like, that fish is not the best. It's going to be. Sure, it's the freshest maybe. But the texture isn't necessarily the best it's going to be. And for any of you that ever cooked a fish that's in rigor mortis, it's quite hard and doesn't have the kind of tenderness that we expect with a fish.
+
+[18:04] So almost all fish, like, especially larger fishes take a long time to come out of rigor. So things like salmon, things like tuna. You would never eat them hyper hyper fresh because they have to go into rigor and come out again and soften up and be
+
+[18:17] excellent. With Ikigime, I've run tests on smaller Ikigime, and they are clearly better the 2nd day after they're
+
+[18:24] killed and good the 3rd day after they're killed. Larger fish like tuna. It's typical to go many days and salmon many days to get the optimal optimal texture on it. Now, the bad news is with fish is that the minute you reach that optimal taste and texture, it goes rapidly
+
+[18:39] downhill. So you have to know kind of exactly where to serve it. So the real high-end sushi joints, know exactly how old each piece of fish
+
+[18:46] is, and they're not serving you the freshest fish. They're serving you the fish that's at its peak of flavor. And for each species of fish, and for each way that it's killed, the time that it's best to eat it is different.
+
+[18:57] And that is part of the great art and mystique and mystical power of the
+
+[19:01] sushi chef is to know that kind of thing. As regards the longer age stuff, like a tuna belly. These are typically cured products that aren't going to go spoil, and they can last as long as you'd like, and there you're fighting against how dry is it going to be, and how much is the taste
+
+[19:17] changing, and most of the taste changing. Some of it's going to be due to protein breakdown, obviously, but also fat breakdown, especially in something like tuna. Now, the reason that McGee recommends pull cuts or primal cuts is because, A, they're going to lose moisture faster, and for dry aging something like beef, you don't want it to get dried out like a jerky, you want the moisture to stay inside, you're going to lose
+
+[19:35] some, and that's going to increase and concentrate the flavors, but you don't want to lose a lot. And also most of the spoilage and funkiness is going to be on the outside. So the larger the piece of meat. The bigger the bigger it's going to be after you trim off whatever's on the outside, the less loss you're going to get.
+
+[19:50] And also, remember, the inside of meat is sterile. There's not a lot of bacteria in there. And so it's not going to spoil. The outside's going to get a little dry, therefore the bacteria aren't going to grow too much on the outside of the thing. It's not like a swamp. You know what I mean? you don't want to keep it too humid. And then after that, you can just age it and you can age it for a long, long, long, long, long,
+
+[20:11] long, long time. Now, on birds, if you keep the visceral. Now, I have shot a pheasant and the viscera got punctured by a BB. I didn't really know what the hell I was doing. You know, not be, whatever they call it, shot from a shotgun. And we hung that thing up for 3 days and man, the inside of that thing stink. I almost vomited when I gutted that thing and plucked the feathers because the stench was just unfreaking real. Now, it still tasted good because I soaked it in salt solution afterwards, scrubbed out the inside, and it was okay. And I cut away the parts where the visceral juices had hit the meat where the gun had gone in. I looked at that Chuck eats blog post, and all of those birds were smothered, basically. So there was no chance for the viscera to leak into the cavity and cause a lot of awful bacterial
+
+[21:00] spoilage. The inside of the bird is sterile, except for the stuff that's on the inside of the elementary canal, which is full of bacteria. So I don't know exactly why leave it in for a couple of days. Maybe it increases the funk, does a little bit of something, then cut it open. I would bet they probably, even though you say some of them are unsalted. I would bet they salted a little bit to dry out the outside of the meat. And then the inside that hasn't been cut is relatively sterile and can be, especially if there's air coming around
+
+[21:26] it getting around it, is not going to really spoil, it's just going to get funkier and funkier and funkier. That make any dank sense. Yeah. All right. So listen, we're going to go to our 1st commercial break and we'll come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[22:23] Y can do a la vida. De momentos malo.
+
+[22:47] Jack, what was that? Hector Laveau, nice. And welcome back to Cookie. What did you say? Oh, the song was El Contante. That just means the song, right? The singer. The singer. Yeah, singer. All right. The singer sings a song. Is this Barry Manilow reference? or is this prior to Barry Mentally? I think it's prior. If we have another break, are you going to do the I sing the song, write the song, forever? do a little bit? Yeah, sure. All right. Call in all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Did I say that right? Anyway. Today's show is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the Modern Cook. They're back. They like us. For a while, they were like, eh, man, not so much the cooking dishes. I don't think so. Anyway, do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds
+
+[23:30] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that makes sense for the home cook and enthusiast. Again. Whatever. And most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage base. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, Monitor's pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking techniques. Modernist pantry is once again offering free samples of meat glue, meat glue, meat
+
+[24:06] glue, to fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show.
+
+[24:10] Simply use the promo code CI 70. It's the 70th cooking issue show? Dang. When placing your owner online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. And stash, we should call them. We're actually running low on SPL and I don't want to buy a whole 25 liter. Yeah. SPO, the magic enzyme. We use that in name, dang, thing, and everything. You know that? Literally, our bar. If you were to suddenly take away Pectinex SPL from us, like all of our recipes would change. I'd have to change all of our recipes, it's it's in every damn thing. It's like some, it's not a season, but like, you know, it's like we use it like it's salt. Everything, everywhere. Everything is SPL. Ultra, SPL, Ultra, Ultra, SPL. Okay. Uh, go to a question here. Dear Nastasia and Dave. This is from Kevin in North Carolina. I like North Carolina. I haven't been a long time. No you don't. I do like North Carolina. What do you know about North Carolina? I don't like, I think you're no, okay. What she's referring to is Nastasia's parents live in outside of Los Angeles, okay, folks? Well, I don't know. But you make a crack that don't like North Carolina. Now I have to talk about, and they say, okay, look, we don't want, we want to escape the humidity. Not that I knew that was a problem in LA because I don't go to LA, but they're like, I want to escape the humidity. And so where do they go, where do they buy a house? The outer banks of North Carolina, right? Not even North Carolina property. The outer banks of North Carolina. And I've only been there a couple times, but it's the most humid place on earth. The giant biting green flies need to learn to swim through the atmosphere because it's so humid. I looked up online as a joke and one of the people lived down there said, I was walking down the street the other day and I, what do you say? I saw a squirrel chasing. A squirrel chasing a bass into a tree because it's so dang human over
+
+[25:55] there. And only, only a relative of Nastasia would move to the outer banks of North Carolina to escape the humidity. Uh, so I love North Carolina, especially uh, the eastern side of North Carolina and their barbecue, which is one of the finest
+
+[26:12] uh, American traditional products we have to offer. Thank you so much, Nastasia, for trying to make seem like I don't like North Carolina. Anyway. I recently made venison sausage, and at the time, I did not have much pork fat to add to the lean
+
+[26:24] venison, only about one. per £10 of final product, and as you know, Kevin, that's not enough. The sausage is okay, but would be better with more fat. Yes, it would. I now have a plethora of high quality pork fat having recently broken down half of an also ball cross from a quality farm. The sausage was stuffed into collagen casings, smoking, smoked and frozen. What do you think about thawing, remixing the sausage with more fat and restuffing into casing? Would the texture suffer? Would you resmoke it? Love the show. Keep up the good work. Kevin. Okay. First of all, for those of you that aren't down with, you know, kind of your pig terminology, uh, an alsobah cross is across, usually with a Durok, which is a relatively, like, good tasting, fatty, but commercial
+
+[27:06] pig with an awesomebah pig. Osobaw pigs come from Osobaw, well, originally, from Osobaw Island, off the coast of Georgia, where the theory is, is that a herd of pigs was dropped off there by conquistador style folks, I
+
+[27:19] guess, in the 1500s, and just left there, and there was no, there was no breeding, no selective breeding, then there was no influx of new
+
+[27:28] jeans. And so they developed their own race based on this kind of Iberian hog they had put there, but they became dwarfs. So it's these tiny and apparently mean son of a bitch pigs that have the most incredibly large fat cap around the meat that I've ever seen because they
+
+[27:46] are designed to put on fat, like lunatics because the season, I guess, the feed there is so scarce. And that's why they became dwarves. There's not a lot of feed there on the island. And so they're incredibly efficient at converting food to fat, and they're small. So they're very interesting. I 1st had an Asaba, ham, probably, I don't know, like 2004, 2003 or something like that, when they were 1st coming out. And they're quite interesting. And the Osobot Cross is kind of a good mix because they're a little bit
+
+[28:16] bigger and they're nice anyway. Now, onto your question. I would be hesitant about thawing and remixing it and then restuffing it into a casing from a texture standpoint. I mean, you could try it. First of all, I mean, if you have the venison, if you had a circulator, even with that low amount of fat, you could cook it at a
+
+[28:37] low, low temp, uh, and you wouldn't dry it out, even though there's not a sufficient amount of fat there, and then you could split it
+
+[28:44] and like drizzle some fat over it to get that kind of fatty, unctuous taste in. I mean, I hesitate. When you mix a sausage, obviously everyone knows this, you put in the salt and the basically you create the primary bind and it glues together. I don't know if you've already smoked it, like how cooked through it is with your smoke. Once it's cooked through, it's not gonna bind the same way again. So you could probably maybe add some of that product back into a
+
+[29:08] back in. In other words, let's say you were to add like an, like an, use half of that, grind it up and add it into a fresh sausage mix so you
+
+[29:15] could get the bind proper again with the fat. Maybe that would work. But I don't think the texture is gonna be the same. And then if you add more, you could resmoke it, but then you're going to be double smoking a portion of
+
+[29:25] it, so you'd have to work around it. I mean, I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't know if it can be done. Um, I don't know. Hey, that's not very helpful, but what are you going to do? What are you going to do? It's all I know. Kevin, next time I'll try to be better. Right? Anyway, so much. There's only so much I can do. There's only so much I know. Okay. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Indie Jesus. Wow. Carlos gets no love, though, huh? Carlos, you get love for me brother. you go. So Indie Jesus is in rare form today. He's wearing he's wearing the Jesus Christ superstar bandana, which I appreciate. It's one of my favorite looks of his. Someday he's going to come in here with a knife and cut all of our heads off. You know that? Yeah. Not mine. I like him. I like him too. Wait, what? So do I. What the hell are you talking about? First of all, Nastasia's the one that brings on this, anyway, whatever. You know, this is like a typical nostalgia trick. If any of you guys ever end up working with Nastasia for whatever reason, just know that what she'll do is goad you into saying something when nobody's
+
+[30:27] listening and then skewer you for it as though you're a bad human being. That's like classic nostachi trick. Anyway. I have a question that I think has got to be right up your alley. I've heard a lot of discussion lately about the huge of use of large spheres of ice in drinks. Some people have told me that that that, wait, some people told me things that demonstrate nothing other than that they couldn't pass high school physics.
+
+[30:47] Boom. One person gave up and admitted. He just thinks they look cool. Now I'm intrigued enough to want to know more. So Dave, as the modernist mixologist, you are, I'm sure,
+
+[30:58] you are. as a modernist mixologist you are. I'm sure you can save me a ton of time and experimentation. Please clear the air and let the world know what people are trying to achieve with spheres. Is it faster cooling, slower cooling, less water in
+
+[31:11] the drink for the same amount of cooling, or something else, and just using spheres instead of other shapes actually accomplish the goal. Okay, thanks, D. Okay, listen. I have a very particular thing. The spheres, to me, are simply a presentation aid. Nobody is shaking with spheres, right? They're straight up presentation. Now, and the way that you make those fears, by the way. Well, there's a couple ways. People hand hack the spheres, and those are the rough kind of ones, and then they'll polish them out, you know, polish them out with something warm so that they look a little more spherical. Uh, and then there's the aluminum block melted spheres where
+
+[31:50] someone, uh, where you buy a big block of aluminum with a sphere shape in it and the aluminum quickly melts the ice into a sphere. So either of those 2 ways are possible. And what they do is they look cool in the glass, right? Now, as regards to cooling. The cooling power of ice is not dependent on the shape, but the cooling rate
+
+[32:10] is in the sense that, um, the more surface area you have of ice in contact with the liquid, the faster the liquid is going to
+
+[32:20] cool, and the faster it's going to dilute. There's no such thing as something that cools without diluting or
+
+[32:26] dilutes without cooling when it comes to ice. Every bit of cooling that a block of ice does in a drink is done by melting and
+
+[32:35] diluting. And every bit of diluting that a block of ice does in a drink is done by chilling the drink down or by losing to the atmosphere. But over the short, you know, short point is basically all involved in the drink. So, a large block of ice, spherical or square or whatever, right? will, typically because it has most of its volume on the inside and less surface area for the amount of
+
+[33:00] ice, will chill slower, will not be as cold and will be less diluted in your drink. If you were to put finely shaved ice in, it would have an immense surface area, it would chill very quickly, but be very diluted, right? And there's no other way around that. You can't you can't get around that. For a given volume of ice, a sphere is gonna have, I believe, less surface area than a, I'd have to do the math. But I believe a sphere will have less surface area than a square for a given volume of
+
+[33:32] ice. And therefore, will have probably less chilling power, and therefore probably less dilution, but the real fact of the matter is, is that usually those spheres are quite wet when they're put in.
+
+[33:43] And so there's a lot of dilution anyway. And I would say those effects are minimal. I would say that it is strictly a presentation tool. Now, uh, I don't know anyone that shakes a drink with spherical ice, because that would be crazy,
+
+[33:55] but, uh, you know, there is a possibility that the texture of a shake and drink can be affected by the size and configuration of the ice in the
+
+[34:03] shaker. But that's an entirely different, different kind of kind of a question. So I don't know whether I've cleared, have I cleared the error on that? Yeah. Pretty clear. Made any sense at all? All right. Okay. We have a comment in from Adam Walker in Bowmanville, Ontario. Thanks for taking the time to answer my glucose syrup question last week. I've done some reading and it is way more complicated than just having enough dextros to make it sweet and maltodextrin to make it viscous. Even just having a mix of maltodextrin seems important for having a proper mix of maltodextrin seems important for inhibiting crystallization in some applications. Maybe I could adapt some recipes, but it's not going to be identical. I'll just ask modernist pantry to stock it. I'd rather buy from somebody that supports the show. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I did find a great book on the topic uh, called The Handbook of Starch Hydrolysis Products and Their Derivatives, 1995. And you can look at a preview on it in Google Books. And in fact, it is a pretty good book. I was reading some of it this morning, which is part of the reason that I came in, I almost was late again because I was reading the handbook of Starch Hydrolysis products. But Adam found a couple things that you readers my listeners might find interesting. One, glucoseers were invented because Britain got their sugar supply cut off during the Napoleonic
+
+[35:18] Wars. Uh, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. They started producing it because of that. pretty cool. A lot of cool food things were because of wars. You know, like Canning, like Napoleon needed to feed his armies. And so a pair who was working on canning the 1st really accurate, a good canning method was basically a result of the Napoleonic
+
+[35:36] Wars as well. So there you have it. Uh, and two, uh, he says cyclodextrin sound cool. Cyclodextrins, by the way, are chains of glucose that are formed into a ring, and they have some cool, cool properties. They are grass, which means generally regarding a safe by the government and have been used to hold onto flavor and industrial food. Wikipedia tells me they are an ingredient in Febriz. I love febris. Like, when you have stinky, like, when you have stinky gym clothes, like, and they get all packed. I, I, I, I used to soak all that crap in Febreze. Febreeze. My wife hates the smell of it, some for breeze, but I just like the word. Breeze. Anyway, Wikipedia tells me their ingredient for breeze, it traps the stink. It's good and traps the stink. Has anybody found good culinary uses for cyclo adductions other than infebri, which you're not using in culinary things? Oh, and to answer the question we were talking about before? on their honeymoon. They got married in October, but didn't want to plan the honeymoon on top of planning the wedding. Is that what you said? You said it could be money. You said it was one of those two. Whatever. you'll change your story. Whatever it is, just change your story. You know what I'm saying? And then she'll say, I have an uncanny feeling. And congratulations on opening the bars. Now, encyclodextrans, the interesting thing about cyclodextrain is the inside of the cyclodextrain, it's not hydrophobic, but it's less hydrophilic than the outside, but the cyclodextrin itself is going to keep its structure and be very soluble in water. So it's used a complex, somewhat hydrophobic ingredients into
+
+[36:59] water, and that's why it's used as a carrier in flavors in industrial applications.
+
+[37:04] I haven't heard of anyone using it in food. So we'll see. We have time to take a break. Yeah. All right, we're going to go another break, come back for cooking your shoes. My dream last night was about Alabama with the 40 thieves. Tom, Tom, about her son. He was there with me. I rode through a valley with a princess by my side. The Duke and the Duchess was ditching to me with a smile. Alice was staring wondering, staring far away. The true black nights was there with me. To tell the kitty, baby. The teddy bear came smiling there with a big smile. And a little bit peep, as a loster, sheep, a snack. So that song was actually emailed in from a listener. Just now? A few days ago, I think. Yeah, from Andy Milka. That song is John Holt. It's called Alibaba. I like that. I like Alibaba. My son, my younger son, Dax, is obsessed with Alibaba due to the 30s or 40s Popeye cartoon where
+
+[38:30] Bruto, or Brutus, whatever he was at that time, plays Alibaba. Remember that? Loves that stuff. Maybe we can get that song. It's called I'm a Terrible Guy. We'll get that for next week. Got it. Good. good business. So, by the way, I forgot to mention this when I was talking about Cesan, the restaurant that Chuck Eves post with the aging and all that. Uh, because I've never been there. You know, I haven't been to San Francisco in a while. I was talking to Daniel Patterson. Daniel Patterson came into the bar last night. We were talking about the state of eating in San Francisco, and he says that the state of eating, and now, remember, by and large, most people on
+
+[39:02] Earth think that it wasn't broken to begin with because people love eating in San Francisco, right? But then you have kind of like the school of thought, which Dave Chang
+
+[39:10] famously was almost banned from the city for saying that the whole dang city is just, you know, a really nice fig on a plate, basically. They just cut off, he doesn't talk like this. They're just cut of a thing and put it on a plate. That's not how Dave Chang talks. But the attitude is right. right? Anyway. So, um, So anyhoo, so, uh, Patterson was telling me who his restaurant quoas, like one of my favorite restaurants in San Francisco. I love his cooking. It's great stuff. Uh, and it's funny, if you ask him, if you, anyway, he's, he's an interesting guy. He writes sometimes for the New York Times. Uh, and uh, I get friend of the show. I was going to ask him to get on the show this morning, but his flight out was at 7 in the morning, so he said next time he's in the city, he'll come to the show. He says the state of eating is getting better and better every day. Anyway, Cesan is the restaurant that had all that, you know, the crazy aged pigeons and all that. But here's the, when I was looking it up on the internets. I had, and I hate Yelp. By the way, I made the mistake of looking at our Yelp reviews and I wanted
+
+[40:10] to, I want, like here's the thing. I'm over it now. I'm not never going to look at it again. Really? I mean, it's just, you know, Yelp is crazy because by the way, I learned a lot from the Yelp reviews to try and like, you know, I did fix some stuff based on what I saw on the Yelp
+
+[40:24] reviews. So, you know, that's there, but the reviews there forever. It just, the whole thing is crazy. It drives you crazy. It's nutty. Anyway, I can't deal with it. But I looked on some sort of Yelp equivalent or Google, and I saw for Saison, the restaurant, the very best restaurant review I've ever seen in my life.
+
+[40:42] You ready for it? It was it was 2 sentences. Very romantic. Pricey but we'll get you laid. I was like, man, that's everything you need to know. Everything you need to know about a restaurant, right? awesome. Anyway, uh, Yeah. So, uh, for those, uh, this is the 1st time you're listening, uh, uh,
+
+[41:10] longtime listener, Ken Engber, is having an ongoing feud with uh, Nastasia Lopez on her use of uh, the internet and various texting and technological things while we're trying to do a radio show.
+
+[41:21] Now, I will have everyone who cares about this know that she, in fact, was not doing that today. She was paying attention today. Yes. Yeah, nice. Anyway, so Ken, this is this is from Cantu Nastasia. Sorry I upset you. Although on balance, I think you will have to agree that it made for some funny radio. I was delighted that you appreciate the irony of my complaining about your reading my email on air. Well, I was actually like you multitasking while listening. I appreciate that Dave took my side, but Jack really made an excellent point. If the vast majority of listeners yesterday were me, then you're promptly responding to my
+
+[41:54] email, instead of paying attention to the show, would turn out to be exactly the customer service Dave says all of your listeners deserve. So boom, crap on me, huh? Crap on me. What do you think, Jack? Crap on me? Crap on me. Uh, yeah. Anyway, more from Keningberg, because Keningberg has decided that we're going to try this
+
+[42:15] Brevel coffee maker. And they're coming tonight. And they're coming tonight to the bar to test it out and we'll see. We'll see how the thing is. I'm excited. And as I've said before on the show, Breville, huge fans of the Dave Chang. They love Dave Chang, so hopefully they'll then love me as well, right? Yes. Yes. Okay. Now, last thing up, talk about the blog for a second. Yes, I realize I haven't done it since October. I also realize I haven't written my Sirius Eats column. I owe that from just before Halloween. No, seriously, Jesus Christ. Eater. Eater column. Nastasia is giving me the D-bag face now. Nastasia has a couple faces. She has the vegan face. What was the other one? And the D-bag face. She's giving me the D-bag face. Anyway, I have, I owe Craigie on Maine some answers and they're, it's a great restaurant in Boston and they're good people, so I'm going to answer that. But I've decided what my coming out of semi-retirement post is going to be. I'm going to do a post on technique we're working on at the bar called
+
+[43:17] Nitro modeling, and it's a cool technique. And so here it goes. So everybody who uses liquid nitrogen knows that you can put an herb in a blender with liquid
+
+[43:26] nitrogen blend it to a fine powder and get these amazing kind of fresh powdered herbs, right? But we're now doing that in the bar, and here's what we do. We take a regular, you know, regular shaking tin for, you know, cocktail
+
+[43:40] tin, and we put 9 Thai basilis into it, pour the liquid nitrogen on top. They get crunchy really quick at Lee. And then we, you know, pour off the extra liquid nitrogen, muddle it just like it was regular mint. I have to work on that a little bit because the noise of muddling frozen stainless steel is insane. Maybe we should try it in glass. Maybe it'll work in glass without cracking. We'll find out. You muddle it. Then you add the spirit, and it's very important, unlike normal bartending practices, to add the spirit first. And the reason is, is because the alcohol in the spirit will prevent the thawing herbs from getting that swampy browned out taste because it inhibits the enzymes that are in them.
+
+[44:17] And those things get that taste relatively quickly because they're so finely broken up,
+
+[44:21] right? So you pour the, uh, the, um, the spirit in, you know, while it's still frozen. Swirl it, thaw it out. We add, so we're doing Thai basil, rum, rum, rum, rum. And then we're doing, we're using a white rum, Florida, Kanye, actually. And then we add simple syrup, lime, swirl it around. Shake it, like a normal cocktail, put it through a fine mesh strainer, and only the green particles of the Thai basil that are crushed fine enough to make it through, finally, enough to make it through that
+
+[44:51] strainer, get into your drink, and you have a bright green, incredibly fresh Thai basil daiquiri, nitro
+
+[44:59] muddling cooking issues.
+
+[45:12] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[45:28] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up to date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And a guest can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Fishes, fish and vodka. Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. coming to you live from roughly 12 to 1245 every Tuesday in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria
+
+[0:34] in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Call all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Jack, I hear we already have a call. Is this true? Caller, you are on the air. Hey, I had a reverse verification question for you. Messed around with it for the 1st time this last weekend and had a miserable failure
+
+[0:54] before I waste a bunch more. I wanted to see if you had any recommendations. All right, before you start, for those of you who don't know what we're talking about. Spherification is a technique where you make little balls out of things using
+
+[1:06] hydrocolloid, the most famous one is sodium alginate. The problem with that is that the balls turn solid over time and they're unpleasant if they're solid because the
+
+[1:15] algernate steals all the flavor. So there's a technique called reverse verification where you basically form just a thin layer of
+
+[1:21] alginate gel around a liquid and it stays liquid in the center forever, but it's a more difficult
+
+[1:27] technique. All right, so shoot, what's the problem? Okay, well, I guess, 1st of all, working with the distilled water for the bath, um, I guess
+
+[1:37] my, uh, sodium citrate maybe is what seemed to be settling out of it. Um, I didn't notice it until after I had blended it and was trying to pour it into the bath. I didn't think there was enough left in the bottom. I went ahead and proceeded with it anyway. Uh, so it may have been a, uh, a week, uh, sodium, I guess, using both the sodium algenate and sodium citrate in the, in the bath. Um, how sensitive is that to, um, Okay. All right, so again, so people don't know what we're talking about. In your, when you're doing a reverse verification, your flavor has a calcium source in it, and the bath that you drop that flavor into has
+
+[2:19] alginate, and then usually something to stabilize the alginate in it. And that algerate then forms an instant kind of envelope around your flavor. Now, before we go any further, the sodium citrate should not settle out,
+
+[2:32] are you you're using, you said, distilled water? Correct. Distilled water in a stick blender? Right. So sodium citrate shouldn't come out of it, and you shouldn't have a problem with the algernate in the bath. Um, the, uh, I mean, I don't use, really,
+
+[2:49] citrate is, is, soyum citrate axe in 2 ways. It's a PH buffer, right? Because the algerate doesn't want the pH to go too low. If it does, it'll start gelling and turning goopy and ropey on you. And it's a it acts somewhat as a sequestran, which means it it binds excess calcium in there. But a lot of that sequestering activity is really due to more of its buffering capacity. If you want a really good sequestrate, you want to move to sodium hexametophosphate shrimp, which is available, I believe, through our one of our
+
+[3:21] sponsors, modern pantry. But what kind of failure are you getting out of it? Are you getting, is the, is the bath turning ropey and nasty on you? Or what, what's the failure mode? It was, uh, the vap was pretty, uh, it was pretty thick but clear. Right. Okay. And what is the failure mode? What's what's exactly is happening? Um, I, I guess when uh, when I'm dropping the, the base into it, um, I'm actually getting different results. I tried with 3 different things in the same bath. Um, I was using a rum, uh, using calcium lactate and a little bit of xanthem gum, and it was dropping into it
+
+[4:01] and almost immediately dispersing. On the surface? very near the surface. Yeah. Right. Okay. Okay, next. I'm wondering whether your problem is you're not getting. I'm wondering where your problem is you're not getting a good drop out of it. One of the problems with reverse spherification is you need to have a fairly thin alginate base in order to get the stuff to drop in properly, and if
+
+[4:23] it, if it's, if the, if it's too viscous, right, you'll just get like a pancake effect on the surface where
+
+[4:30] it'll maybe it'll hollow out a little bit, but it'll just spread wide, and then it'll form like kind of wisps of gel within it. Was it gelling? It just was dispersing? No, it was, it was gelling, and when you, when you're describing wisps of gel, that's almost exactly what the, what the rum base was doing. Right. I think your main problem there is you maybe need to go thicker on the, on the rum are add some heft to the, because also, remember, alcohol is fairly light compared to, uh, so you add some heft to it. I mean, with either sugar or glucose syrup or something like that to add some heft so that it wants to go down, add some viscosity to it,
+
+[5:04] like even over and above this anthang gum. Another problem with Xanthan, did you did you get all of the air out of the rum before you dropped it in or was it still cloudy? Um, it was, uh, the rum was just a little bit cloudy. I let it sit for several hours, but it was still a little bit cloudy. Do you have access to a vacuum machine? Uh, no, I don't. Right. So you're only really, your only really way to do it is to wait for it to kind of settle out. But if you don't want to add Xanthan, you could add other, you're going to need to add some Xanthan, but you could add some other bodying agents like glucose syrup or like corn syrup, something to give it some extra density so it wants to
+
+[5:43] sit and you're going to need to make sure that the stuff you're dropping in doesn't have air bubbles because the air bubbles are just going to sit on the surface and prevent a good drop from forming. What percentage of alternate and what brand are you using? Um, I don't know what the brand was. It came from one of your sponsors when you mentioned a moment ago. Um, and I'm, I was using, uh, what is it, uh, 2.5 grams to, uh, to 500 grams of water? Uh, 2 to 5 is 4 to one. So, so 0.4%. Yeah, sounds 4 grams in a liter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds right. Yeah, that's right. yeah, right. That's really low. I mean, in other words, um, so, I mean, everything depends on the
+
+[6:30] alginate. I've never used modernist pantry's alginate, so I don't know kind of what's going on with it, but, you know, Algernate's coming, a variety of viscosities from a low viscosity
+
+[6:41] algernate to a high viscosity algernate. The one I use, I use a medium and a high viscosiogenit from FMC biopolymers, the one that I typically use when I'm doing this. And with those, you want to, with, for the high viscosity one, I usually want to be around 8 grams in a liter. In order to get like a good gel to form.
+
+[7:00] And the other one, maybe even, you could go a little lower with the high viscosity one, like, you know, seven grams per liter, uh,
+
+[7:08] but yeah, like down at .4, it's going to be hard to form a quick thing and that might also be causing your dispersal problems. If you, and by the way, alginate, especially if you have all the stuff in the back, you can heat it to get rid of the bubbles. And in fact, when you heat it, you're going to be decreasing its viscosity. So if you're having viscosity issues. You can do reverse verification into hot alginate bath. It's not going to hurt anything. You don't want it to be so hot that it's going to boil the alcohol out of your rum, right? But assuming that that's not a problem, you can go that way. Let me give you another thing you can do, depending on what size of balls you want to make. You can, you can, if you have a silpat, you can just take, and this way you don't need to thicken it at all. You can just take drops of and put drops onto a silpat and then let them freeze up. If they're small enough drops, they, you know, they'll pancake out, but you'll still be able to get a good drop on it. And then just put those drops in one by one, they'll thaw almost instantly, especially if you're using a hot
+
+[8:04] alginate bath, and that'll let you get it underneath. But I would try to get your alginate bath higher than 4 grams per liter. I would get it up to like, you want it as low as you can, obviously, but you might want to try like seven,
+
+[8:17] 8 grams per liter. Uh, try it hot, make sure you get all the air out of it and try to put a little more body into
+
+[8:23] the, um, into your, into your, uh, rum. How much calcium lactate per liter were you adding? You're using calcium lactate or calcium lactate glucinate? Uh, I was using calcium lactate. Okay, how much? And I was at I was at 30 grams per liter. 30? Correct. Uh, says 3%. That's that's high. Is that what they, is that what they told you on the website to add? Correct. Yeah. Could you taste it? I mean, that's enough calcium, in other words. should work. Yeah, I could, I could taste it a little bit. Right. In general, I mean, that's high. You could get the calcium lactate glucinate. It's gonna make a softer gel, but the 1st thing I would do is get it
+
+[9:08] geling properly. Once it's geling properly, then start dialing the calcium back.
+
+[9:13] And so what I would do then is I would make your rum mixture first, right? And then I would hold some back with no calcium in it at all, right? And then, and then take your one and add the calcium to it. And then as an experiment, just keep adding the uncalcium stuff back to it until it doesn't gel right anymore. And then you'll you'll get a feeling for exactly how much calcium is going to be required in that application. Okay, that sounds like a good idea. That's what it'll do. Another problem with reverse verification is that if the if the balls touch each other underneath the alginate bath, they'll glue each other, they'll glue themselves together because of that, in other words, the
+
+[9:53] alginate will start bonding and then they'll be hard to break apart. So you want to make sure when you take them out to very quickly put them
+
+[10:00] into basically like a pure water solution to get them separated and to rinse the extra alginate off and then to store them in a back basic, the best thing to do is to have enough of your
+
+[10:11] flavor base left to store the balls in the flavor base. If you store the balls in the flavor base, which has some calcium in it, they'll last forever or until they spoil, right? If you store them in water, then all of the very quickly, all of the flavor and color will be leached out of them. And somewhere in between is to store it in a basically a sugar and alcohol solution of the same relative sweetness and same relative alcohol level as your balls.
+
+[10:37] And that's kind of the intermediate. So when I, the thing that I use reverse verification for most is maple syrup balls that I put inside of
+
+[10:44] pancakes. And when I do that, I basically store them in the maple syrup. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good Good, good. Okay. So give that a shot. Good thing. Yeah, thank you so much. Awesome show. Listen to you guys all the time happen for a while. Thanks so much. We appreciate it. All right. So how you doing, Nastasia? Good, how are you? All right. All right. What's up? Nothing, just looking at cues. Oh, we got cues? What going on? I think it's fine. All right. All right. So, uh, anything new happening in the world of uh, cooking issues slash Nastasia Lopez the past uh, week? No, Dave. Nothing? Nothing. Had nothing going. Actually, we've been working. We've been with you like 24 hours. Yeah, we've been at the bar. Like basically nothing new can happen except we've been at the bar, right? I mean, that's basically the only new things that happen. I tried yesterday. So we've had some calls from a show that wants us on maybe in
+
+[11:38] California and we've been doing some crazy tests for that. yesterday I had to make a hurricane. you're familiar with the hurricane? It's like, you know, nowadays, a god-awful rum drink is invented by a guy, Pat O'Brien, apparently, in New Orleans, who was given a whole bunch of rum. Right after prohibition, he opened up and
+
+[11:56] basically he couldn't buy the good liquors from the distributor unless he also took rum, which at the time nobody really wanted.
+
+[12:03] And so he had to find something to do with all of that rum. And so he mixed like a couple kinds of rum and passionfruit syrup and pomegranate syrup. And, you know, some other stuff. And there's the hurricane. It was served in giant glasses. basically to get you F'd up, which is how it works now in New Orleans anyway, but the quality is just even lower than
+
+[12:21] back then. New Orleans, you know, is like the home of the crappy fake daiquiri shop. In fact, last time I was in New Orleans for Tales of the Cocktail, one of the bartenders was working at a dinner that I was at. I forget who it was. And she had ordered a daiquiri machine to come and a fella who showed up to tweak out the daiquiri machine. I had no idea what an actual daiquiri was, and we made and served him an actual daiquiri. He was like, no, no, that's not a that's not a daiquiri. Like a daiquiri is basically Kool-Aid and like rum in one of these frozen
+
+[12:52] machines. horrible, horrible, horrible stuff. The current hurricane is made with a powdered mix that might as well be Kool-Aid,
+
+[13:00] uh, but it just doesn't taste quite as good as Kool-Aid does if that if that's humanly possible. So it's just a horrible, horrible thing. Anyway, so we tried to make what we thought was a good hurricane. So I basically took pomegranate, smacked out the seeds, muddled them because I didn't want to blend them to get the bitterness in from their little pips on the seeds, added them to passionfruit puree, hit it with SPL, and spun it out in a
+
+[13:25] centrifuge, and got an amazing bright red, awesome flavored kind of passionfruit slash pomegranate syrup that, you know, is tart enough to use in place of lime
+
+[13:36] juice in a daiquiri style recipe. Made it, actually tasted quite good. Problem was that the show wanted me to do something carbonated. So I carbonated and it tasted awful, right? Pretty much. You agree? Yeah, I don't really like most carbonated rum drinks except for like dark and stormies and things like that because the ginger really helps it out, but like I think I said this before in the show, like carbonated rum often ends up tasting like Cisco, if you remember Cisco, which was a carbonated 20% alcohol beverage from
+
+[14:02] the 80s or 90s. It was just dreadful, dreadful, dreadful stuff. But then at the behest of some of the bartenders sitting, Tristan and Nick at Booker over Booker and Dax, our bar, was like, let's make a Jenna Kane. And we made a jinna cane. We made like a gin hurricane, and that was delicious, delicious, delicious. anyway. So that's the kind of crap we're working on nowadays. Okay. So, uh, go, call in more questions, by the way. 7184972128. 718-4972128. We have a coming in on last week's show from Paul, uh, who in, uh, it's about the, remember we had someone who wanted to know how to tell whether their mom was allergic to a particular kind of fish because their mom was allergic to fish scales.
+
+[14:43] And we, uh, or no, sorry, not fish scales, to, uh, fish with scales. And we had a discussion that basically the scale is just a marker of where the fish is in the evolutionary
+
+[14:51] chain and so they need to stay away from that particular whole group of fish. Paul enjoyed our explanation of it, but had an interesting way to very simply find out whether or not it's got
+
+[15:03] scales. And that is, is it kosher? Paul says, check the internet to see if a particular fish is kosher, i.e. if it's permissible under Jewish dietary laws. There are always tons of Q and A's on the internet about what is and isn't kosher. Kosher fish must have scales as well as fins. Please note that the inverse is not necessarily true. It could have scales but not be kosher, but this might definitely be an easy 1st test for her.
+
+[15:26] Kosher equals definitely has scales, so your mom definitely can't have it, and not kosher equals might not have scales.
+
+[15:33] So, in other words, if it is kosher, your mom can't have it. But just because it's not kosher, doesn't mean your mom can't have it. Makes sense. Very good. Thanks, Paul. That's a good idea. And then, you know, beyond that, go and look up where it is in the evolutionary chain, and see, you know, where it fits. Is it a, you know, tiios, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. Uh, two. For Matthew, and this question goes out to the good people in the engineering room, Jack and
+
+[16:00] Carlos, I'm a big fan of your show and spend plenty of time listening to the archives. It always helps my dishwashing slash house cleaning time go down a little smoother.
+
+[16:08] Can you believe someone's actually doing work while they're listening? It's crazy, right? Yeah. It's nice. I like that. Anyway, why, Jack? Do you cut off the last 5 minutes or so from any of the shows on the archives? It's important that we hear every last word that Nastasia and I have to say,
+
+[16:23] thanks, Matthew. Well, I don't know if it's important to hear every last word we have to say, but Jack, not to put you on the
+
+[16:29] spot, or is Jack back there or Carlos, what's the explanation for that? What going on? There's stunned. Wait, Jack's coming. We'll look into it. All right, all right, all right. All right, Matthew, we'll take care of it. Okay, so listen, with that, let's go to our 1st commercial break. Call on all of your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. It don't matter anyway. You can rely on the old man's money, you can rely on the old man's money. It's a bitch, girl, but it's gone too far 'cause you know it don't matter anyway. Say money, money won't get you too far, get you too far. Don't you know?
+
+[17:18] That is wrong, wrong. To take what is given you so far gone on your own. But you can get along. You're trying to be strong. But you'll never be strong. But you're a rich girl Bitch, can you go too far? Because you know it don't matter anyway. But yeah, you can rely on your old math money. You can rely on the own... I take full responsibility for show cutouts. Sorry. Sorry, guys. Well, that is no problem, but I'll tell you something. I hate it when she lets it go too far because she knows it doesn't freaking matter because she can rely on the old man's
+
+[18:01] money. It's so disappointing, isn't it? So disappointing. You know, you should stand on your own. Don't rely on the old man's money. Anyway. Apparently we have a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hi, uh, I'm, of course, I, I'm, uh, I'm looking to do the, uh, well, I
+
+[18:20] have a, for beer, I have my, uh, my hot water tank is controlled by a PID, and I was wondering if there was any issues with using such a large volume of
+
+[18:30] water because it was probably about 10 gallons. 10 gallons. Well, how many watts is your heater? Uh, I've got a, I've got a two. I've got one of the 5500 watt and one's a 4500 watt and then I've got a pump that I can use for circulating back into it. to keep it moving. All right, with that kind of wattage, uh, so I mean, I'm going to do a quick calculation here, a 1000 watts, about 28 liters, assume it's fairly
+
+[18:55] linear. Yeah, you should be fine. As long as your pump gets good movement through it, as long as your PID is
+
+[19:01] stabilizing, uh, within like a couple of tenths of a degree, up or down, uh, which is it? Is it stabilizing properly? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Then you shouldn't have any problem. Uh, you know, just, you just want to make sure that you don't have any huge dead spots in the circulation and that when you put your packages
+
+[19:21] in that they, um, that they, you know, that there's a lot of, that there's water circulating around them. As long as you have water circulating on all sides, you should be okay. The other thing I'd be cautious of on certain items, if you're going to do eggs, is if you're circulating that much water, you don't want it to be
+
+[19:38] too, too violent, or the stuff's going to get knocked about in there, or you could have a situation where if you don't have the stuff properly contained, the circulation is just going to push it all to one corner of the bath, all of your bags will pile up, and then the
+
+[19:52] bags in the center are going to take a long time to come up to temperature, which could be problematic in certain recipes.
+
+[19:57] Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But your wattage should be more than enough. I've never had the pleasure of fooling around with a circulator that's 5 kilowatts, but
+
+[20:09] it sounds like it should be a lot of fun. What are you cooking? You know, I'm just kind of glad to do everything. Probably, you know, I have chicken, so probably a lot of eggs. Probably what? I'm having a little bit of a bad connection. What did she say? What do you say, brother? eggs? Yeah, a lot of eggs. Yeah, a lot of eggs, a lot of chicken for the most part. All right. So if you're, uh, if you, yeah, so again, just make sure that the eggs don't get knocked around uh, too much. And the other issue, obviously, is you're using quite a lot of power. Uh, you know, um, so if you had the, if you have the PID controller and whatnot, you might want to make a secondary bath that's smaller, like, you know, 2 kilowatts and like 28 liters or something like that, which would be, is twice what was normally be used in 28
+
+[20:53] liters to get up to temperature really, really fast, but just you don't want to be in a situation where you're pulling out those big guns all the time. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I assume you're running that guy off 220. So if you're going to run that guy, what? Yeah. Yeah. So if you run that thing off of 120 instead, right,
+
+[21:13] you'll get about a quarter of the power, so that'll get it down to normal range. So if you just make an alternate plug situation or run it off of 120 instead of 220, assuming the amperage works out okay, you should then be able to use it as a lower wattage
+
+[21:26] item, it might be a problem with your pump, you might need to get a secondary pump, but you shouldn't need to get a
+
+[21:31] 2nd heater element. Does that make sense? Yeah, that helps a lot. Now, if I was looking at, you've got me very interested in this rotary evaporator and I have money to burn. That's a good problem. How do you how do you clean them? I mean, I'd obviously have to buy it used. So how would I, I don't know where it'll been? How do you how do you clean the glassware? Well, that's a good question. So, I mean, there's 2 kinds of problems when you buy laboratory gear, and the one problem is kind of inorganic poisons, like straight up old school poisons,
+
+[22:06] and also organic-based poisons, and the other are kind of biohazards. So most likely you're not going to have a biohazard in your Roto app, although it's
+
+[22:17] entirely possible, I'm pretty sure that the original one I bought off of eBay had carbon
+
+[22:22] tetrochloride in it, which is nasty stuff. Uh, so I just, um, I bought, uh, you know, a basically a glass cleaner. I think I think of the brand was Alkanox, and I just cleaned the ever loving hell out of it. If you have access, I also, in case there was a biological agent in it, I also bleached the hell out of it, you know what I mean? Basically soaked in bleach, ultrasonic cleaners, huge bunch of changes of water,
+
+[22:48] bunch of, bunch of changes of water, and detergents that will attack both polar and non-polar things because the odds are there's a bunch of non-polar stuff there too, which might be, you know,
+
+[22:57] vile, vile stuff. Um, so, you know, just do that again and again. Also note that if you're buying a standard rotovap with a condenser, regular coil condenser. That one's going to be harder to clean because it's impossible to physically attack all the nooks and crannies on that.
+
+[23:13] You can't get your fist into it. Whereas if you're getting, what the heck was that? It sounds like someone just died on a roof. If you if you get a cold finger condenser, you can disassemble it basically and get your hands into it and totally clean
+
+[23:26] it out. And if you're really lucky, you can get a cold finger condenser that also has a coiled insert
+
+[23:32] sleeve, and then you get the best of all worlds. You can use it as a cold finger condenser. You can use it as a regular coil condenser and you can clean it, but it's very difficult to clean out the inside of
+
+[23:42] the condenser and it just takes a lot of time and flushes a detergent in water. Um, you could maybe like a per carbonate cleaner? Like I've, uh, powdered brewery wash. £50 of it? Would that work for that? I mean, I'd look and see what, whether or not what they say on that is how it works on, um, you know, chemical deposits that aren't, uh, you know, like basically, you know, you'll be able to get rid of most of the polar stuff using normal detergents and most of the non-polar stuff, frankly, but I would just, I haven't looked at it in a long time because it's been a couple
+
+[24:15] of been like 5 years since I bought a Roto app on eBay, uh, And so I would just look up, for instance, like what the procedures are for cleaning out,
+
+[24:23] like pick a couple of vicious non-polar solvents, like carbon tetrochloride, and just find out what the kind
+
+[24:28] of what the kind of decontamination procedure is for it. But yeah, you know, maybe the brewery one would work. I mean, like I say, I bought Alkanoxx just because that's what they use in labs. It's not that expensive, but I'm sure you can get a hold of it. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I would specifically look up. I would choose a couple of nasty solvents, polar and
+
+[24:47] non-polar and just check out the basic decontamination procedures for them. Okay. And that cold finger condenser, you're talking about, is that like a Y-big condenser for a still? No, no, the cold, the cold finger one is just a, basically, it's a cone shaped sleeve
+
+[25:06] inside, inside of the round condenser, and you fill it with, uh, in the lab, you would typically use dry ice, uh, acetone. I use either dry ice ethanol or liquid nitrogen. I actually almost always use liquid nitrogen because it's actually easier for me to get than dry
+
+[25:23] ice, but for storage reasons. Um, but, um, the problem with a cold finger condenser, if you're not using something super cold, like dry ice and ethanol dry
+
+[25:33] acetone, is, uh, it has a very low surface area, uh, compared to a, um, because it's not indented, like, like, you know, some of the condensers you're dealing with.
+
+[25:43] So it's got a fairly low surface area compared to a coil condenser. I see Okay. All right, is that helpful? Very helpful. Thank you. All right. And, you know, write us back and tell us what happened with your big mega circulator.
+
+[25:58] Will do. All right, thanks a lot. All right, today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate, hate, hate to
+
+[26:11] overspend for pounds of supplies with only a few grams or needed per application. Modernist pantry as a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for their home cook and
+
+[26:20] enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks. Send you time, money, and storage space. I'm going to edit myself to have either enthusiasts, whatever. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry, and if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries several types of modified stargios for thickening, including UltraText 3, UltraText 8, and Ultra Spurs 3. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show will get a free package of
+
+[26:57] UltraText 3 to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 71 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. All right, listen. Listen. For some reason, a lot of chefs started using Ultra Techs, you know, years ago. And what Ultra Tech is, is it's a great product made by national starch, and it's a part of a group of things that are basically they're pre-cooked starch.
+
+[27:25] They're prehydrated, pre-cooked. So you don't need to heat those starches, ultra text, for instance, to get them to have their thickening capacity like you would with a normal starch, right? So that's great. That's fantastical. Uh, the problem with ultra text is, is because it's been uh, prehydrated, pre-cooked, if you add it to liquids and you don't have like a high sheer mixture, mixer, or you can't shear it in quite a bit, or you don't mix it into
+
+[27:49] butter, like in a burminee, or any one of those things, mix it with sugar, anything, corn syrup, whatever, it tends to uh, to glob up, to turn into kind of globules, uh, you know,
+
+[27:58] purl up the same way as if you added starch to uh, hot
+
+[28:02] gravy. It works exactly the same as if you add starch to hot gravy. So you need to really hit it with a blender or something like that to get it to disperse properly. And that's because when you add starch to gravy, typically what you'll do is you'll add starch to a cold liquid
+
+[28:16] first, form a slurry, right? So that all the little starch particles get separated, and then you add it to a liquid, and then everything's kosher. You heat it up and it's good and it hydrates and all that stuff. Ultra spurse, right? Not text. Ultra spurse is a an agglomerated pre-cooked, you know, prehydrated starch. And what that is, is it looks like little kind of, it looks kind of grainy when you look at it. Instead of being a fine powder. It looks kind of grainy. and it's designed to not kind of stick together into
+
+[28:48] balls and you can stir that one into things to thicken it
+
+[28:52] up and you don't need a lot of high sheer mixing. Now, the reason that industrially ultra spurse isn't used as much as UltraTex is ultra spurse is a lot more expensive than UltraTex. But in most home and like high-end chef kind of things, the cost isn't that much greater and
+
+[29:10] is not that much of a concern because you're not using that much of it. And so I would always recommend, if you can, to go with ultra spurse instead of ultra
+
+[29:19] text, all from the good folks at national starch. All right. Does that make any damn sense? Okay. So, Chris, maybe next week, give away the ultra spurs, ultra spurs. What about commercial break? Already? been 15 minutes. Really? All right, we'll go to our 2nd commercial break. Call in all your questions. Two, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[29:48] What I want.
+
+[29:53] But like a flame of birds, a candle. But can't be the blame. What I got, full stop. I thought you dream to scatter. When you pull them all together. And I can't display. Oh, yeah, well, by you. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Well, well, well, you. Oh, yeah, when you make my dreams are true, yeah, true. On a night, one bed, breathe, come and scream up. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, Hall and Oates fest today, huh? Is that Nastasia? Carlos. That's Carlos. Carlos, good Carlos. You know, Nastasia and I have kind of like a running thing that we like... Dave completely bastardizes.
+
+[30:56] Yeah, well, I'll rock out to it, but they like, you know, so like if you've seen what's that show, like the wedding singer, where the guy sings with all the curses. I tend to sing songs with like many, many curses interspersed in them. And so like what we feel is like, you know, you know how when you go to a concert, there's that guy who stands in the background screaming the
+
+[31:12] song, right? So, like, we imagine that I'm like that guy screaming, but instead of giving like the rock and roll fingers, like, you know, like, rock and roll fingers, I've just got my, I was just like flipping them the bird. But I mean, like the front row, screaming along, like jamming out, like, to rich girl, giving, giving, like, hollow notes to bird, and they're like, what the hell is this guy doing? What's wrong with this guy? You see how long it takes before I get ejected from the concert? You know, those guys in the front row don't play. They pay so much for those tickets, especially on a reunion tour. They're not playing around with some joker like flipping off the band and screaming curses. Freaking rich girl. Anyway, okay. By the way, I know that was a scary sound we heard before, but it seems like Indie Jesus is okay. Oh, man. That's good business. We have checked the building. Andy Jesus is okay. Okay. That's good. Jesus Christ superstar is coming out at the end of next month on Broadway again. Dave. Yeah, but look, okay, look, Jesus Christ superstar. Aside from the fact that, you know, you kind of, as much as I love Andrew Lloyd
+
+[32:15] Weber, and it's Andrew Lloyd Weber thing, right? As much as I love him, I have to, from a more kind of rational standpoint, hate it. Well, because, like, you know, I mean, all the people who are seriously into musicals are like,
+
+[32:25] oh, my God, Angela, whatever, right? Even but I like that stuff. You do? I do. I love that stuff. Jesus Christ, superstar especially, but the problem is, is that in my head, I have, you know, the original kind of voice of Judas is in my
+
+[32:38] head. And if I go and hear somebody else, and the original guy is dead, by the way, so it's not like they're going to bring that guy back. And, you know, if I hear somebody else playing Judas, I'll just be like, oh, my God, what is that? It's the same way that, you know, they redid Heat Miser, Snow Miser. Or Charlie Brown's voice. They read the Charlie Brown's voice. Horrible. horrible, horrible. Awful. Horrible. You know, it's like some things, you know, whatever. Anyway. You're gonna make me go see it, aren't you? You should take your sons. What the heck do they want to see Jesus Christ Superstar for? They don't like. It me. I like musicals. My son Booker would be so bored. He would be screaming the entire time. When's it over? Blend it over. And like they'd be singing, you know, what's the buzz? And he'd be asking me when the buzz is going to be over. I can't, you know, I can't, I can't. Anyway. Uh, question from, okay, I can't see the questions from. Oh, from Derek. Hi again. I want to make my own sherry vinegar. Is it possible to take a red wine vinegar mother and put it in sherry and wind up with sherry vinegar? Are there any other methods? Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome, Derek, we will try. We will try start being awesome. anyway. Okay, so here's the trick. When you're making, the answer is yes. it's going to work. But when you're making vinegar from wine, you're typically using a lower alcohol
+
+[33:59] wine, right? So sherry, which, you know, is fortified, is coming in at a much higher ABV, then is good for the vinegar. So, you're going to want to dilute to, uh, and I looked at a couple different sources, but between kind of 7 and 9% alcohol and
+
+[34:16] 9% is pretty high, like you might want to start down lower at like 7%, uh, alcohol, okay? Uh, so, uh, so you're gonna basically figure out what the alcohol content of your sherry is and then dilute it down
+
+[34:29] with uh, with whatever, but get the alcohol percentage down. If the alclave's too high, you'll inhibit the acetobactor and that's going to be, it's going to be a problem. Okay? Another thing that I've read, I don't know whether it's true or not, but is that if a wine is very highly sulfured, has a lot of sulfur dioxide in it, that can also be a
+
+[34:47] problem for the acetobactor. But other than that, it should basically be no problem. Now, I looked up Sunset magazine has a big how-to on this, including the vinegar,
+
+[35:04] and remember, I don't know whether Sunset's any good anymore, but back in the day, in the early 70s, Sunset magazine, which is from California, had like some kind of butt kicking books
+
+[35:12] on like how to get a really butt kicking garden, how to make bonds eyes, how to bake
+
+[35:17] bread. I mean, Sunset magazine. But it was all like desert-y. Desert E. Desert, California. It's California. California. Arizona. They read it in Arizona. It was like, yeah, like, you're from LA. I'm sure you had sunset magazine coming out of your ears in the morning. No, I think it's more of like a desert, Arizona, New Mexico, California. Hey, look, you know why it's called Sunset? Because the sun sets on the freaking west coast, right? It's the west coasting, southern west coast. Right? But anyway, the books used to kick butt. That's all I'm saying, is that Sunset books, you wouldn't think it. It seems like very consumerie, but their books I used to enjoy them as I was growing up. I haven't read them in a long time, but if you look it up, And you know who they asked as their consultant for it? Paula Wilford. Yeah, who Nastasia and I met when she was writing like some sort of a clay pot cookbook. Is that true or false? Yeah, she had just finished it. Her house was freaking full of clay pots. I'm talking like, she had a greater volume of clay pots than I have an air volume in my apartment because her house is quite large compared to my apartment.
+
+[36:16] Anyway, um, Paula recommends that you start small. In other words, if you get your mother, you add a little bit of the wine to start with. You got to make sure that air can get to it because forming forming acetic acid, it's an aerobic activity, there's air. So in fact, when you're doing a fast procedure, so the, the, the old school way is, uh, I don't know whether it's called the Orleans or the Orleans, because I've never heard anyone pronounce it, but that's the old school way of making vinegar, where basically you take a cask, you drill holes in it, put a screen over
+
+[36:46] it, so bugs can't get in, you let air get in. It's the air that allows the acetic acid, the acetobactor, the acetic acid
+
+[36:53] bacteria to grow, and therefore turn your, turn your wine or turn whatever your cider into vinegar. If there's no air, they won't grow. If after they're done, you continue to allow Aaron, then the acetic acid will be lost, it'll oxidize and go out. So you have to strike a balance there. If you want to make it quickly, then what you have to do is increase the surface area that the bacteria can grow
+
+[37:16] on. And so you can do things like mix wood chips in with the with the with the base or whatever and then have the mother on top. You don't want to swap out the mother because you have to get the population of bacteria relatively high. So what most people do to maintain their mother is remove like 3 quarters of your vinegar and then
+
+[37:32] put, without disturbing it, put, you know, the rest back in in terms of fresh liquid, and then you could keep it going. Eventually your vinegar mother will probably fall to the bottom. Uh, you scoop it out. Hopefully a new one will form because you'll have a colony in there. We spoke about vinegar mother what it is a while ago, but it's mainly cellulose, bacterial cellulose. So it floats on top, eventually maybe it will fall to the bottom. Another thing, and you know, I'm not an expert by any means in vinegar, but after you make it, you're probably
+
+[38:01] going to want to age it to kind of mellow it out a little bit. Some people age it just on its own. Some people age it in wooden barrels, which are getting increasingly difficult to get. The small wooden barrels are getting increasingly difficult to get. When you are aging it, people tend to pasteurize it to stop further bacterial change, for instance, that might turn the vinegar, you know, to actually consume some of the acid
+
+[38:21] in the vinegar and ruin it. So you can either exclude error or pasteurize it or exclude error and pasteurize it and age it to get a variety of different flavors. How's that? Make sense? Semisense, partial sense. Okay. From Matthew, hi, Nastasia and Dave. I hope you're doing well and a big congratulations on the opening of Booker and Dax. Thank you. I think it's a pretty good bar. I mean, like, you know, we're still working. It's going to get better and better every day, but I think I'm proud of what we're doing. What about you? Yeah, I'm proud of what we're done. Okay, I was recently given, which doesn't mean that we're nowhere near where we want to be, but I'm proud of what we're doing.
+
+[38:56] Anyway. I was recently given a cuisinart ice cream machine, the kind where you pre-freeze the canister. I have made some excellent ice cream, and with the help of some pastry chef friends, have learned to add some tweaks to my recipes that keep the ice cream from losing its smooth texture in the freezer, and stay a little bit more stable at room temperature. And the 2 things that Matthew's adding are glucose syrup and gelatin. Is there a simple formula for replacing sugar with glucose that could be applied to any ice cream recipe. My primary goal is to give ice cream a better texture, post freezer storage. Thanks, Matthew. Uh, okay. So the simple, there's no, there's no simple anything. You know what I mean? Which is, you know, always the problem. And I forgot to look up before I came in what the solids ratio, what the solids content of glucose syrup is, but I think it hovers around 80%. I think it's in there. And you have to figure out what the DE, the dextrous equivalent of the glucose syrup is to figure out how sweet it is. But the book that I recommend, and most of it's online on Google Books, is called
+
+[40:03] Glucose Syrups, Technology and Applications, and there's a section on ice creams in there that talks about it. But basically what the glucose syrup, the glucose syrup is accomplishing a couple of things. It has a certain amount of sweetness to it, right? Not a lot, but a certain amount. It depresses the freezing point of the ice cream base somewhat, right? But also, it drastically increases the viscosity of the ice cream base. And what that's doing is it's going to give you a kind of a denser, better mouth feel and also prevent inhibit crystallization. The gelatin will also help with crystallization. But, you know, and anything you add, any hydrocolid you add is going to help. Anything that increases the viscosity is going to help prevent crystallization from happening once it's in your freezer afterwards. So, uh, basically, what you want to do when you swap it out, let's assume that you don't want to, um, let's assume that you don't want to change the sweetness of
+
+[41:06] your of your recipe. So you have to look at what the relative sweetness of the glucose syrup is versus
+
+[41:11] sugar. So your relative sweetness of like a 42 DE glucose syrup is half. It's half as sweet as sugar. We're using low DE glucoseries when I usually do it, like a 28 and 28 is like 0.4 of the relative sweetness of it. And that's on a dryweight basis, right? But the freezing depression, uh, so let's take glucose uh, 28 DE glucose syrup. It's a little under half the sweetness of sucrose, right? But it has only half of the freezing point depression. So you need to add twice they, like, once you take into account the water that's in it. You're gonna remove, let's say, of, you know, 200 grams of sugar, you're gonna have to add 400 grams of solids from glucose 28 DE to have the same sweetness, but you'll have a lot more
+
+[42:04] solids, so it'll be a lot denser. So this table is available on the Google books. And you can get a sense of the relative freezing point depression and the relative sweetness for various
+
+[42:16] different sweetness. So let's say you didn't want to add like that. If you want to reduce the sweetness of something, right, but not really reduce the, not really change the freezing point depression or change the actual viscosity of it much, you could add glucose
+
+[42:30] syrup, and then you could depress the freezing point further by adding small amounts of
+
+[42:34] alcohol. And there's ratios in this table in this book that you can look at to really kind of get a better idea of what you're doing.
+
+[42:42] But whenever you're swapping out sugar. your removing body, you're changing the freezing point depression, and you're changing the sweetness. And all of those things need to be accounted for in an ice cream to balance out. So, you know, you don't want to change anyone drastically or there's going to be problems. Just what's cool about this book, the glucose syrup, technology and applications in the ice cream section, is that rather than go into really kind of technical explanations of trying to calculate
+
+[43:10] things, They say, hey, look, calculate everything relative to sucrose. So the sweetness relative to sucrose, table sugar, and the freezing point depression relative to sucrose. And then just get into your head that ice cream should have
+
+[43:24] a sucrose relative sweetness and relative freezing point depression, because sucrose were taking as one as unity, of 13 to 18. So something with a suit with basically 13, so 13% sugar in it is going to be hard, right? And not that sweet. And something with 18% is going to be relatively softer because it's going to
+
+[43:48] be have more freezing point depression and relatively sweeter, right? And so by calculating the relative freezing point depression and relative sweetness to sucrose, you can play around with recipes fairly
+
+[43:59] easily and try to get something that works for you. Does that make sense? Okay. I am being told, do I have any more questions or have I answered them all? Ive answered all the online questions. I'm being told that I am out of time. So this has been cooking issues. Thank you and come again next week.
+
+[44:30] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[44:48] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadionetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria every Tuesday at an undetermined time. Supposed to be 12. Happy Valentine's Day, people. This is the Valentine's Day issue of cooking issues. Call in all your questions live too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Here again with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and the engineering crew in the other room. How you doing, Stas? Good. So the reason I'm late today. Today, literally, most of the time my fault. Most of the time, my fault. Check this one out. I'm on I'm on the subway because I still haven't fixed my bike yet, mainly because I'm lazy. And, uh, I run, run, because I see the train coming, right? The, uh, the, uh, J train, M train, whatever it is. I run like a lunatic, run, so I have a huge headache now, like almost like I'm going to like get an aneurysm or something like that. Jump into the car, door shuts, and then promptly sits on the platform for 20 minutes. They finally come on, open the door and they say, hey, uh, yeah, there's some lunatic. This is Valentine's Day in New York for you people. There's some lunatic walking across the tracks on the Williamsburg Bridge, like stumbling back and forth. Apparently, I don't know, some star crossed idiot. Like walking back and forth across the tracks on the Williamsburg Bridge. So there's no train traffic on the Williamsburg Bridge, and they don't open the doors to let us out. They trap us like sardines in a box. Thank God my son wasn't there because that's his worst nightmare on earth. So I had to run out and get a taxi so that I could talk to you fine, folks, today. Anyhow, happy Valentine's Day. Styles, what are you going to do for Valentine's Day? I'm babysitting your kids. Yeah, because I have to go work at Booker and Dax, the bar. And 1st of all, it's only till 10 and Nastasia's night doesn't even begin until 11. I should be getting the pity party because my wife is away on Thanksgiving. I won't even, I mean, Thanksgiving. On Valentine's Day, I won't even see my wife on Valentine's Day. I don't get a pity party for that. And check this out people. Today, Valentine's Day is the 20th anniversary of me starting to go out with my
+
+[2:26] wife. 20 I started my 1st day with my wife was on Valentine's Day 20 years ago today and I'm not even going to see her dad. There you go. See, I believe I deserved a pity party for that one. But, yeah, I used to hate Valentine's Day. I hated Valentine's Day. so much. Like the 1st 20 years of my life, Valentine's Day, worst day in the world. But, uh, you know, ever since then, ever since I started going with my wife, it's been
+
+[2:53] good day. Except today when she's not here. Anyway. Okay. Oh, by the way, I realized, I don't remember where it was last week or the week before, someone asked a question on Japanese Western style knives, because they had a, I forget which brand it was. I don't know. I forget. But Japanese Western eyes, which are sharpened differentially on the 2 sides, like 3070 and whatnot. And the question they actually asked me, I realized this morning as I was showering, I was like, they actually asked me, how do you use a steel with a knife like
+
+[3:22] that? And I realized I didn't actually answer that question. I didn't, I talked a 1000000 for a 1000000 years about sharpening and different knifestyles and everything, but never about how to actually use a steal. You can't. Don't use a steel on a knife like that because it's almost impossible for you to accurately steal
+
+[3:35] it with the 2 different edge angles. What I would recommend, though, is something that back when I used to have sharp knives in my house, and that means before I had a babysitter who would use my knives,
+
+[3:46] I don't know, I don't know what the hell she does with them juggle, I don't know what the hell she does. But I can't keep them sharp anymore. So I stopped trying. So my knives are now. I went from having like very, very sharp knives. They're having very, very dull knives. There's a cute kid, by the way, looking in the window of our radio station pulling her hat on, staring at Nastasia. I think in horror. I think she's staring at Nastasia in horror. Anyway. So what I recommend to keep knives like that super sharp is the same thing that barbers use for, you know, generations for razors, which is get yourself a leather belt, like a leather strop, wide one, hang it
+
+[4:21] up somewhere in your kitchen, and strop your knife. And that really helps to bring like a light bit of an edge back. You can either strap just with an oiled leather band, which is what I did or use a super, super, super mild
+
+[4:34] abrasive. But the reason it's okay is because you're going in the opposite direction than you would do
+
+[4:38] and you're stealing and so you're not going to dull down your knife. And it helps to knock a little bit of
+
+[4:43] the, like, minor burrs that happen as you're cutting. So I would go invest in in a straw. I love it. And plus strops look badass. When you're stropping a knife, it looks kind of badass. You ever stropped a knife in? No? No? You don't like straps? I wasn't really listening. Good, good. Well, it's good to see you're doing your job here, as always. Okay. Hi, hi, David Nastasia. A quick sausage question. I found some information on the cooking issues blog about cooking sausages directly in a
+
+[5:09] liquid in a liquid with a circulator. One thing the blog didn't mention is how long it takes to get an average size sausage to temperature at a 60 degrees Celsius bath. Additionally, what is the maximum amount of time that sausages should be held at this temperature before the quality goes south? Thanks, Matthew. Okay, well, That's an interesting question. I should think that the interior of the sausage, I mean, any reasonable size sausage, is going to be done probably in 40, 45 minutes, something like
+
+[5:36] that. If you think about it relative to an egg. If you actually want to measure it, you can use one of the programs like sous vide dashboard that you
+
+[5:42] is available on your iTunes or whatnot, and you
+
+[5:47] could check exactly, but within 45 minutes or so, the average size, thick, you know, sausage should be done.
+
+[5:53] Now, I would hold it for longer than that because the deal is, is typically you have some tougher cuts of meat in a sausage and you're tenderizing it via grinding. one of the reasons why you grind it, right? Well, if you hold it longer and longer, the meat gets more and more tender. So depending on what cuts of meat are in it. You could hold it for quite a long time at those temperatures quite a long time. Now, I've never held a sausage longer than, Oh, 6 hours or so, but they were good at the end of 6 hours. The trick, remember, when you're when you're cooking sausage and a liquid like that, is to have the liquid be so flavorful that you're not leaching flavor out constantly over
+
+[6:35] time. I would not cook them for any longer than necessary in an excess of flavorless liquid, or you could put them in a
+
+[6:41] Ziploc bag with a small amount of oil and cook them forever, not forever,
+
+[6:45] but you know, for a long time, hours. And they're just going to probably get better, probably not get worse, depending on what kind of kind of meat
+
+[6:52] that you put into it. Anyway, does that help? Anyway, it's a good technique. I do that technique all the time. Everyone's like, I think I told this, I've said this on the show before, but I bought some really cruddy, not cruddy, but like, you know, cheap, cheap sausage and
+
+[7:05] cooked it that way, 60 degrees, 60 or 62 depends. It's going to be a little pink at the center at 60, some people freak out about. So you might want to do 62, depending on what kind of meat is in the sausage. And depending on whether the sausage is already cured. The sausage is a cured kind of sausage. If there's any sort of nitrates in it. It's going to be pink anyway, and then you can cook it to whatever temperature you want, which case I would do 60. If not, ah, you might want to do 62. Depends on how people feel. Uh, but, uh, anyway, I bought this cheap chorizo. And there were people like, this is the most delicious sausage in the whole world. I was like, it's a circulator. not me. Anyway, I have something else with that, but I forget what it is. Oh, yeah. Anyway, uh, my brain's a little fried because uh, I'm saying like, we, we here at cooking issues haven't been burning uh, the candle at both ends recently. We've just been taking the candle, throwing it in the oven and melting that sucker down. You know what I mean? It's like years ago, it's hilarious. Like, uh, you know, I heard Drew Nipron, you know, the famous restauranteur, he was giving a talk somewhere. I forget where I was. I was attending to talk and he said this. He said, uh, people always ask me, how do you balance, you know, like a family life and a restaurant life? And he said, you don't, ha. you were like, I can do it. Well, you know, yeah, whatever. Anyway, funny. Okay. So, uh, here's the thing. Like, uh, working at the bar until all hours of night, right? And then putting your kids on the bus in the morning is not not
+
+[8:41] like that no work, no work, right? So my brain, therefore, is not working. So if I'm a little frazzled today, folks, it's just because I'm stupid. Okay. Uh, Dear Dave and Nastasia, uh, a friend of mine recently found out she has celiac disease and therefore cannot have any more gluten. I was attempting to create for her some of the homemade goodness that the rest of us get to enjoy.
+
+[9:01] Uh, i.e. uh, gluten, delicious, delicious gluten. But when looking on the internet, I found many conflicting suggestions for the use of
+
+[9:08] Xan and Guargum, as well as suggested non-wheat flour blends, tapioca, potato, millet,
+
+[9:13] et cetera, without rhyme or reason as to the ratios used. Do you have any experience or advice for working with gluten-free breads, pizzas or pastas? What changes in properties can I expect from different brands of flour? What is working in xanthang gum that is intended to replace the gluten structure? Thanks for any help, Alex from Florida. All right, well, 1st of all, uh, I don't have any actual experience, uh, cooking gluten-free because I haven't had any, uh, I haven't had any need really to
+
+[9:42] to do it, you know, for my own family, and I cook occasionally, I'll cook some gluten-free stuff if I have someone specifically coming over
+
+[9:48] my house, but I've never done a thorough, thorough researching of it. But I do have some advice. The reason, look, here's the reason it's tough to, and there's so many recipes out there is that wheat flour, right, is fantastic stuff. And, uh, there's, and all of the recipes that, you know, we've been developing since Time
+
+[10:12] and Memorial are based on the properties of wheat flour. So, you know, one of the pop properties of wheat flour is its flavor, right? which we have all come to appreciate. And the other one, the other ones are it's gluten, which provides structure. There's a bunch of properties. And the issue with making a replacement for wheat flour is that no one grain
+
+[10:34] flour or no one flour has all of the properties of wheat.
+
+[10:41] So if you're trying to actually mimic a wheat flour product in terms of its texture, right? You're going to have to use a blend of flowers, right? So that said, and I'll get to the Guar and Xanth in a second. That said, you know, a lot of people base the initial part of their recipe on rice flour, right? Because it's fairly bland, fairly neutral, right? And, you know, it's not that expensive. It's easy to obtain, right? But if you use it exclusively. then it tends to make kind of dense, leaden, gritty things. So they add other, you know, starches and flowers to it, like tapioca, for instance, which is going to add some
+
+[11:25] stretch because it's really kind of weird gluey stuff, adds some lightness or potato, which helps absorb, which helps keep things moist and also make things lighter. So it's a balancing act between choosing those different things. Now, when you go to add things like bean flowers, which some people do. That's going to also add its own kind of holding capabilities, ability to hold bubbles and trap bubbles, which is what one of the great things about wheat flowers, its ability, and this is what the gluten helps
+
+[11:52] here is the ability to hold bubbles and form a nice structure when things are baking.
+
+[11:56] So, Each flower has this different thing. But if you're going to add bean flour, the problem is if it's a very light flavored thing, you start tasting the bean flour in
+
+[12:06] it and it's kind of gross. So if you need something sturdier and the flavor can be covered up, then you can use things like that. And if they can't, you have to use something more neutral. In addition, a way to hold bubbles is to make things thicker. So people add starch is to help thickening. So they're adding things like arrowroot starch, even though it's quite expensive, right? A good thing I saw on the on the interwebs about this is from, and
+
+[12:30] this, what I like about it is just her opinion on what the different flowers do. You go to gluten-free mommy and she has a list of all the different base flowers and kind of what her opinion on kind of what they
+
+[12:43] what they contribute or don't contribute to particular mixes, including sorghum flour, white flour, white rice
+
+[12:50] flour, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the one problem I have with all these websites, actually, is that they, look, if you have an issue, like you can't have gluten, then focus on that. But everyone also throws in a bunch of nutritional mumbo jumbo about what's good for you and what's not good for you. I hate that. I hate thank you. And my kids even do this. I hate it so much. is my kids are like, is this good for you? Is that good for you? I'm like, it's all either good or not good for you, depending on the balance of things you eat in your diet. There's no, there are very few things that are bad for you. And there are very few things that are good for you. You know what I mean? Like if you ate only carrots, you would turn orange. You know, I told my kid that and then he won't eat carrots, freaked out about carrots. He thinks he's going to turn orange. I'm like, no, no, you have to eat like many, many sacks of carrots. But the point is, variety is the spice of life, my friends. And you want to eat a lot of different things. Do you know what I'm saying? Anyway. All right. So another issue on that. Now, so that's just a different ratios of flour, and what the rhyme or reason is, is you want to get a balance that mimics the texture of wheat flour without having
+
+[13:50] an overly assertive taste. Usually the tastes are beanie. They call them beanie or kind of like, you know, weird kind of like dusty, like, you know, like, like chickpea flour or like, uh, what's that?
+
+[14:05] Black eyed pee flour, things like that. Okay. Now, as for Xanthan gum and Guargum, Xanthan gum is used to replace the protein because like protein, Xanthan gum can form a gel and really hold a light gel, right?
+
+[14:22] And really hold air bubbles well. So it's used directly as a gluten replacer. Guargum is cheaper than Xanthan gum, right? And the guargum that you typically buy in the store has an awful, awful kind of beanie taste. So I hate using it and things like ice cream. There's really nice, nice guar gum called flavor free guar from TIC gums that is very neutral in taste. But Guar isn't really as good a replacer for gluten as
+
+[14:51] Xanthan because Xanthan has the ability to form a loose gel structure that holds bubbles during the baking process, whereas
+
+[14:59] Guar is simply a thickener. So I wouldn't replace, like, I wouldn't say that Guar on its own, is going to do your job for you. But Guar in conjunction with Xanthan. Guar could be used to replace some of the Xanthan and make the Xanthan a little bit cheaper. Uh, now, uh, another thing you can use, if you're not like, multiply going to make your life difficult is eggs. The protein and eggs is fantastic, uh, and and easy to use. And so that, the protein and egg, egg white, and, you know, I guess also an egg yolk can help replace some of the gluten because it holds structure as well.
+
+[15:37] Uh, so, you know, eggs, xanthan, uh, glar. I mean, whatever. Then I came across a website that's actually pretty interesting and apparently it's won a bunch of awards, a gluten-free girl and the chef. And here's something that they said that very interesting. By the way, I have some issues with the site. For instance, I don't know whether it's the gluten-free girl or the chef who's writing
+
+[16:01] this because I don't know that much about the website, but, you know, they stopped using Xanthan and Guar. They, the recipe I soften and they use a lot of eggs because it's their opinion that they're having a negative reaction to the Xanthan and to the
+
+[16:14] guar. It could be that they're having a negative reaction to the guar. Guar is, you know, you don't really digest Guar. And so if you eat 8 boatloads of guar, it's like, you know, it's like eating a serving of colon blow. You know what I mean? And you're gonna, you know, you're gonna have some fiber issues, you know, it's like eating a whole boatload of fiber. It's going to give you some swelling and some poop. Yeah, anyway. But you know what I mean? It's like, so that that can be an issue. The good thing about Xanthan is I doubt anyone's actually having a reaction to the Xanthan because you're using it in much smaller quantities than you would use the guar. So it has less stuff that can go in there and cause you to bloat and swell and poo and all that kind of stuff, all that good kind of stuff. Anyway, gluten-free girl and the chef, they don't use gum replacements like that. They don't use Guarzanthem, but they do use eggs. But they brought up an interesting point, which I hadn't thought about, which is, I mean, I always bake with grams,
+
+[17:07] always, 100% of the time, I bake in grams. That's not true. Sometimes ounces. But by weight. And by weight is obviously, everyone knows it's the best way to bake, and everyone in the world thinks that we Americans are small children in the kitchen because we use these dumb cup measurements to measure things out.
+
+[17:25] And in general, we can get away with it because we're measuring the same thing over and over and over
+
+[17:30] again. And even though we're plus or minus about 10% with our measurements, our recipes still
+
+[17:34] work, I say we should switch away from using cups not because of the accuracy, although that's great, but because it's really messy to measure with
+
+[17:42] cups, it's much easier to measure and to change recipes when you're using a scale. I mean, a scale is just the best thing to have. Anyways, uh, turns out that these different flowers that you're substituting in when you're making
+
+[17:53] your uh, your gluten-free flour mix have radically different densities from AP uh, wheat flour. And so if you switch to going by weight, your substitutions are going to be much, much easier. And so that is what I think a good recommendation from the
+
+[18:10] gluten-free girl and the chef. Anyway, let's go to our 1st commercial break and come back with cooking issues.
+
+[18:58] I love you. I love you.
+
+[19:21] All I'm seeing, baby, baby.
+
+[19:31] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Jack, what was that? That was the pixies from Carlos. That was some weird stuff, Carlos. Yeah man, that's what I was saying. That's some weird, weird business. I mean, I know where some weird people, but that's some weird, weird business. Uh, calling 100 questions too. 718-4972128 that's 718-4972128 pixies. That's what? Bjork? No, no. Bjork was the sugar cube. Sugar cubes. Man, you know what? And that was my era. Like, I should like, this should be on the tip of my tongue. That just wasn't my scene. You know what I mean? That was more fishbone chili peppers, kind of a guy. Yeah, anywho. Okay. The only reason I say that is because that's also weird. You know what I mean? Bjork. All right. Oh, I forgot to mention, the gluten-free girl and the chef. Those guys also use flax seed or chia seeds. You ever cook with that crap, Stas? You blend it with a liquid and it turns to like a mucilaginous goop. So they also use that as a structural replacer. But my point is this. If you're using a mucilaginous goop as a structural replacer, just use
+
+[20:33] Xanthan. Xanthan's a great mucilaginous goop, and you don't have to go grind up flax seeds to do it. My opinion, my opinion. Just me, just me. Okay. Oh, I had something else. Oh, yeah. So when you're dealing with the gluten-free stuff also, remember what you're using it for. A cookie doesn't need a lot of gluten. A cake doesn't need a lot of gluten. So there you're just trying to mimic the texture of the texture of a wheat flour stuff, not necessarily the super, when you really need the hardcore gluten isn't a bread. In a cake, you want it to be fairly light. And this is another point that the gluten-free girl and the chef bring up, which is good, is that remember batters, recipes, a lot of times will tell you not to overmix, not to develop the
+
+[21:09] gluten, and when you're dealing gluten-free, you don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. So in a cookie or a cake, you can just focus on the taste and the texture of the kind of starch balance, the flour itself,
+
+[21:20] uh, with just enough structure from the protein to give it some structure, and you don't have to worry about it holding air in the way of a breadwood. So that's another reason why there's no one-to-one substitution because you're trying to do different things with wheat flour depending on what you're doing. Okay. Now, uh, by the way, we got uh, something in from uh, Elliot Papineau, uh, about uh, stropping. Bob Kramer has a strop kit. so you can go online, look up Bob Kramer and purchase a straw kit. Strops are really badass. I have to say, you look like, you look like you're going to, like, like, Sweeney Todd, Demon Barber of Fleet Street, like you're going to go slip someone's throat as soon as you start dropping. Like, if you were stropping a knife behind your kitchen counter, somebody like, man, I'm not going to mess with that dude. That dude's dropping a knife by the counter. Equally, doesn't have to be a guy, woman. You know, when I say dude, it's kind of a gender neutral dude. Is there any sort of gender neutral? All of your appliances are women. What are you talking about? Not all my appliances are women. Take her, make sure she's, when you're talking about the centerfuge, the roto app. You're crazy. You're a crazy lady. Okay. Elliot also has a 2nd point, which is that if you need to find the edge of your
+
+[22:29] 70-30 knife, you just lay it flat on a stone and raise it until you feel the edge. That's good. Or I don't know if I mentioned this using a sharpie on the edge. You can feel, you can look and see whether you're being accurate to do it when you want to test your ex. Anyway, okay. He also writes same with a question. Elliot does, and says, whenever you get on the air, can you talk about the different sources of glutamate? I've been experimenting with various free glutamate containing products, such as tomatoes, mushrooms,
+
+[22:54] combo, katsuobushi, and what's the best way to pair of foods containing free glutamates. Well, that's good and interesting. I always find it hilarious when someone eats something that contains 8 boatloads of, you know, free, you know, glutamate
+
+[23:09] there, and then they say that they have a reaction to MSG, Nastasia. I'm talking about you. I know. Anyway. So, I mean, the best thing to do is like, so the classic thing about it this way, the classic pairing, classic, classic, classic pairing, obviously, is kombu, which
+
+[23:27] has a high source of free glutamates and katsobushi, which has
+
+[23:31] high IMP. Those 2 things go together, uh, and basically synergistically react to make like mega mommy, mega umami, which is why kombu, uh, which is why the,
+
+[23:42] like kombu and katsobushi are so good together. And Nastasia hates, by the way, kombu broth. I do. But you like it once you add katsubushi and turn it into misos. You just don't like the Stevie broth on it. zone. Anyway. So it's good to have... What? It tastes like cavity fillings. Well, I wouldn't know. My teeth are fine. I don't have any cavities. I've never had a cavity, and I've never heard anyone describe it like that, so I'm sure you're being crazy like usual. Cavity feelings. Why would kombu to stock taste like cavity filling? What do they make cavity fillings out of? I don't know. aluminum? No. Aluminum? Aluminum? Aluminum. think so. No, they used to be made out of a mercury amalgam, but they're not anymore. It's aluminum no. No. Why would you put aluminum in your mouth? Crazy, crazy person. It's nuts. You know, people, seriously, people, seriously. Okay. Uh, so, how do we get on there anyway? Oh, yeah. So, uh, when you're when you're pairing things together, I mean, obviously, uh, you know, it's good to
+
+[24:41] add. I mean, I just throw a bunch of those things. I have to cook a lot of vegetarian stuff because a couple members of my family are vegetarian and they come over. So a lot of my sauces that I used to umami up by throwing in anchovies,
+
+[24:53] uh, because anchovies are delicious and everything. You could throw anchovies into just about anything. And I'm not talking about the white ones that, you know,
+
+[25:01] everyone like, you know, they they love like the book runners and stuff like that, which are great. They're great, fine, whatever. But, like, you know, good old-fashioned salt cured anchovies, uh, in the can, uh, are, like, you know, one of God's great ingredients. And they make almost anything taste better. Everyone says they don't like them and no one has ever said they don't like them when it's mixed into a pizza sauce. Pizza sauce good with anchovy, yeah? Stash is not incredible now. salad dressing, good with an anchovy in it. Any of that stuff. You want to you want to umamilate something? Bang, hit it in. you're done. Anyway. Umama late? You heard it here first, cooking issues, a malade. Uh, but the, uh, the point is, so like, you know, you have to, you have to add other high umami stuff. Now, you can go and work on things like tomatoes and yes, I use boatloads of tomato paste when I'm because it's like super concentrated tomato. Obviously, use lots of mushrooms to get that meaty stuff up. Parmesan. These are, you know, all obvious, and you end up, you know, you end up doping stuff back with a whole boatload of soy,
+
+[25:56] right? The problem with me is, is that trying to get meaty and high umami flavors by just adding high umami ingredients like
+
+[26:06] that, specifically soy and whatnot. Really, let's makes everything kind of taste the same. It kind of it makes all of the food have a similarity to it that you don't
+
+[26:18] get from just, for instance, adding salt. So like, I think I talked about this like, you know, I don't know, a year ago or something like that. You know, a lot of companies are trying to lower the sodium content of their foods. And the only way they can, this is the world's worst term, and it shows how people think. But increase the palatability of the things that they make when they reduce the sodium. Isn't that gross? trying to reduce the sodium, but increase, but keep the palatability, just gross, right? Not like, we're going to make some delicious stuff. It's like, you know, we're going to we're going to make it more palatable. Anyway, so they, they dope it with um, with a non-sodium form of uh, glutamage so that they can keep the quote unquote sodium level low. Uh, and they do it using that, like also quote unquote, natural sources, which means that they'll take like 8 tons of seaweed and turn it into a powder. Might as well use MSG. Anyway. Problem is, when you dope foods with, specifically with, like, lots of free glutaments like that, they tend to then all taste like
+
+[27:16] dashi to me, right? You've had that also happen too, right? I was tasting somebody's pasta. I think I mentioned this. I was tasting someone's pasta and it was a fettuccine Alfredo, right? Which is what I, strangely what I call my wife sometimes because it's like Jennifer, Jenna, Fred, Fred, Freduccini, Fred, any whatever. Anyway, like all my everything I say in private when I'm not on the air is some stupid, stupid combination of
+
+[27:40] crazy, dumb, random inferences. You know what I mean? Anyway. So fettuccine Alfredo, I was like, this tastes good, but fettuccine Alfredo's not supposed to taste like dashi. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Right? Anyway. Anyways. So that's my feeling, Elliot, on that. Should we do one more commercial? Before I go on the more commercial break. I was to say this, my favorite Valentine's quote of all time. Last year, I was in the Rite Aid outside of my house, which is a pharmacy for all you people that don't know what to
+
+[28:08] write. It is, Nastasia hates them because she only shops at CVS. She literally went... Okay, okay. She literally last week, Nastasia had a root canal, right? So I hope she was high on Vicodin, which she made this choice. She went to his, she went out of her way to go to a CVS, even though they had a 2 hour wait for the medicine. She could have got it 10 minutes at the right age. She would 2 hours look out of her way, 2 hours wait for his medicine because she likes to hold music better. No. Yes. So the store music, the store music. Whatever. Whatever. That's old. You're on hold. tabs on like the stores and what music they play. Really? I know. I know, crazy, right? You know, put on your iPod. listen to whatever music you want and don't wait 2 hours for your Vicodin, your antibiotics. That's my point. Anyways, I'm in the right A like a year ago. And they had the Easter decorations out right around now and someone let lady walks in. She goes, Easter, it ain't even Valentine's over yet. anyway, commercial break. My name is Cupid Valentino. The Martin Bailey Cupid. Just want to say one thing. Happy Valentine's Day. Every day, the 14th. I don't think I heard, man. I just wanna say happy Valentine's Day. Every day, the 14 Can y'all dig that? Now, when arrows don't penetrate, see. Yeah, nah. Now look at here, Pete, straight for your heart. Now, he won't miss you. But that's all right. Y'all won't believe in me anyway, but... You won't believe in me, but you... Every time I'm on brown hall,
+
+[30:02] so... Then all this talk about Santa Claus, but
+
+[30:09] see, love. We'll rule supreme Happy Valentine's Day. Every day the 14th. You got it. When a cute hit knocks at your door. You can ignore me There's no need to run. So happy Valentine's Day. Hey, you can't, you cannot ignore the Cupid. By the way, I just looked out the window and Indie Jesus looks like he's having a fine Valentine's Day. Oh yeah. Yeah, you can smile on any Jesus' face. You know what it takes to get Jesus' smile? You know? Anyway, today's show is sponsored by the modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate, hate, hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution? They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around 5 bucks, sending you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolics, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Bonitous pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries sequestrans, including sodium citrate and sodium hexametophosphate. These ingredients act as a preservative and also mop up stray calcium ions, which is helpful when working with hydrocollards and gel in the presence of calcium. a.k.a. sodiumalgenate, and... Okay, which is Joanne. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 and more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of sodium
+
+[31:47] hexameter phosphate to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 72 and placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. Hey, Chris Anderson. Good for you for doing the sodium hexametaphosphate and not the sodium citrate. Sodium hexometaphosphate is the baller sequestrian. Sodiocitrate is more of a buffer. Sodium hex metaphosphate or shimp, as they call it. That stuff's the ball. It's good stuff. Oh, also, Colin, longtime writer and Colin writes. Because, you know, I always gripe about what's the difference between a home cooking enthusiast. What are we talking about? So Colin writes in, regarding enthusiasts. You don't need to cook anything to play with hydrocoloids. Science nerds love that stuff, but some can't actually feed themselves. Thus, I believe, the distinction, Colin. Other topics, my wedding anniversary, which it's not my wedding anniversary. No, no, no, no. That was my note to you. Oh, I thought Carlin did my anniversary when I was crazy. I was like, how's Carl going to know that? It's not my wedding anniversary. I got married in June. It's my anniversary of going out. No, you know what? Like, listen, Nastasia, when you put this stuff on there, put our comments in a different color. Just so you know how this show runs. Like your comments when you write them are in black. And my comments that I make to jog my memory when I'm yapping on the radio, I write in
+
+[32:58] blue, so I can tell what's us and what's you. And the headline of your question, I write in red. Not that anyone gives a rat's patoot. Okay. Now. What? I can't say patoot? topics. You're not calling new. I thought Kyle was like other topics. That's random. Okay. Okay, so we have a question in from Marvin Woodhouse saying, I love the show. and been listening from Ireland and now Germany since day one. From Ireland to Germany. It's pretty cool. I wonder what I wonder what they do. Yeah, what do they do that they're moving from Ireland to Germany? I wonder, curious. Anyway, question one I'm in the process of moving to Germany. Most apartments here do not come with kitchens, just a bare room with tiles and connections. So I'll be starting from square one. What's a must have list of stuff in it if you were starting from a bare room. Nothing, not even extraction. That's hood for you and I in America. The kitchen will be about 20 square meters. So Nastasia, look up what 20 square meters is in square feet, so my brain can wrap my head around it. Okay, 1st of all, I know there's plenty of people here in New York City that wish their apartment came with no kitchen because it's just wasted space. How many people do you know that use their oven as a bookcase? I do, which is crazy. First of all, just a separate note. Anyone out there, never store crap in your oven, right? It just means that you have a mental imbalance or a problem. Don't ever store stuff in your oven. It's just, it's just not right because it implies you're not going to use it. If you're going to cook, don't store anything you haven't, my 2 cents. So what's 20 square meters? Oh, thanks, Google. Thanks AT&T with the slow Google. All right. First thing is first. As you mentioned, extraction. It's my feeling that a huntlet, like the biggest, it's eventually going to be seen as a health issue, right, for people who cook a
+
+[34:40] lot. 215.2 square. Oh, that's good. 215 that's about the size of my kitchen. That's a good space. It's a good size space. I mean, it's small by suburban standards, but, you know, my kitchen's pretty comfortable 200 square feet, right? Yeah, I could have 8 people cooking in my kitchen, but it's very well designed. Anyway, if I do say so myself. Uh, but uh, extraction, hood is the most important thing. Everyone here is under designed in terms of their hoods. Home hoods suck. They're the worst. They're useless, not useless, but they're they're of limited usefulness. I would invest in a really good fan vent that this is illegal in the U.S. I don't know whether it is in Germany, vent it straight out the window with a straight pipe straight out the window. I purchased a large blower and it, the hood itself doesn't need to be expensive. It's just a piece of metal. It's the fan that you need a good fan. And bigger fans rotate at slower speeds, and therefore are not as annoying as little fans that rotate at high speeds. So I would say if you're going to spend, you know, your nickels, 1st of all, go with good hood. Secondly, if you're in Germany, I haven't checked it recently, but I assume it's similar to France in that the gas prices are relatively high relative to electric compared to the US, get an
+
+[35:55] induction, get induction. If you're going to be in this apartment a long time, then go ahead and get something that's built in. Otherwise, you can get really nice induction Hobbs, that you can take with you when you go. In particular, some manufacturers now make front back induction units so that you can mimic an actual traditional range by stacking induction units next to each other and having front back on induction.
+
+[36:20] So I would, you know, I would definitely go that way. If you want to go more permanent, you can get an induction, uh, you know, a regular induction
+
+[36:27] overrange, but the overrange, the over things don't necessarily work that well, but I'll go separate. Uh, get a good convection oven with uh, a good convection oven would be nice uh, electric there as well. I'm assuming that you're, again, I'm assuming that electricity is going to be the best for you there in terms of cost. So, uh, again, I really don't have any idea what you're going to. I tell you what I have in mind, which is about the same spot. I have I have a large oven that could take a full sheet pan. If you're gonna cook, you wanted that. It's not necessary, but full sheet pan is, again, baller. I have 6 burners. You're probably not going to have that if you don't have extraction, especially if you're going to go induction. I also have a salamander, which you're probably not going to put in your place, but I love
+
+[37:08] it, and a deep fryer next to it. I find that that combination, which I don't expect you to emulate, is I can cook. I can bang out like a small restaurants worth of food in my kitchen without breaking a sweat because it is the setup that you would have in a small restaurant
+
+[37:21] kitchen, basically. I have a fryer, a salamander, 6 burners, and a full sheet pan oven. Obviously for me, it's important to have an espresso machine. Uh, but you know, whatever. Since you're building this yourself, you can do some cool stuff. The coolest thing that you could possibly do is put foot pedals on your sink. Every sink in the world, in a kitchen or bathroom, should have foot pedals installed so that when your hands are disgusting, you don't have to touch the faucet. So I have a, I have hot and cold foot pedals on my, on my floor and my wife, who didn't think it was so important or such a good idea. She was like, really, really? Now it's like, yes, really, you need that. Everyone who's used them, loves it. And since you're installing from scratch, Get the foot pedals. Don't skip on your sink size. sink size. you never going to need to, you know, sink size is important, right? Don't you hate a tiny sink? What do you think? Yeah. Hate tiny stinks. Hate tiny things. Is there anything else what do you think? No. That's good. Good recognition. Oh, no, my iPad hurts. Hey, Patrick Martins, founder of Heritage Foods, coming into the studio. Hey everybody. Yeah there he is. Oh, he's got some really nice orange corduroys that I now covet. I covet Patrick Martin's orange corduroy pass. Okay. 18 miles, baby. What? What happened? of what? In 2 days I ran. Oh, Patrick's around 18 miles in 2 days. I don't know that it's not good for your knees. That's, you know, that's bad for your knees. you know, anyway. Okay, question 2 from Marvin. I have a badass poly-science lab circulator, model 8812. By the way, I couldn't find 8812. But the unit is so big that it's difficult to fit food around in the small bath that's designed to fit. I removed it from the lab bath, but there's no mounting bracket. Do you have any experience of mounting these things to or over a sink? I haven't actually mounted one of those to a sink, but you might want to look at this as an alternative. Uh, though, some of those units, the, uh, and I couldn't find your exact one, but I have one that looks similar to it. have 2 screws in the back of it on the bath itself that allow you to circulate in and out of that same bath.
+
+[39:21] So you could literally just put hoses and circulate into a sink and put the whole circulator into a cabinet next to it.
+
+[39:29] And I've done that many times. That's how I chilled my rota app, for instance. You just have to make sure you get the water levels relatively the same so that you don't overflow your circulator bath. But I would do that or else you could just make a 2nd, I mean, if you could weld,
+
+[39:45] obviously, you could do it, but you could easily mount one by just having someone cut out a stainless steel bracket with the same whole mounting pattern as the one that was in the
+
+[39:52] bath and then cantilever it over your sink. I would make it with wing nuts so that you could take it off very quickly without taking up too much space. But yes, it's definitely possible, but look into just using the bath as a holding binge so
+
+[40:05] you can circulate stuff in and out. Question three. I'm throwing a cocktail party next month to Marcus leaving Ireland. Can you, I have a color? And finish up in 2 minutes. Wait, I have a caller, caller. You on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Todd Bryant. Got a quick question for you. Go ahead. On following up on your knife discussion a couple weeks ago. How often do you use a steel on your knives? Uh, well, back in the day, on my German, uh, on my German knives, I would use them pretty much, uh, you know, before and
+
+[40:37] after, pretty much all the time. Or when my strop was hanging, I would strop them before and after. I mean, it all depends on what kind of what kind of knife. So my German ones, I used to sharpen, uh, I, you know, just not a quick one. You know, I wouldn't like go through the whole sharpening process, but I'd touch up the blades on the stone probably once a week and then, you know, I'd drop and or steal every use, my Japanese knives, you touch them up every time you use
+
+[41:04] them, basically afterwards, you know? Uh, and, you know, the, the real traditional Japanese ones and the Japanese Western ones, I never had much of a knack sharpening them. I got, so I ended up, ended up not using them as much because I was not so good at sharpening them. Okay. All right. So just touch my before and after then. How do you know? All right. And how do you know when it's time to do a full sharpening? Or you just do that automatically once a week? Yeah, I would just do it automatically or if they start dulling out or someone picks up your knife and uses it for something inappropriate, you know, it's
+
+[41:36] like, you know, you know when your knife is getting dull. You know when you can't bring it back and the tomato, you start having to push into it, you split the tomato, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just, you know, you could do it by that. I find it easier if you just choose a time to do it. It depends on how much you cook. You know what I mean? But if you just choose a time to do it, then your knives are always going to be in fantastic shape and you're not going to get creep and start using
+
+[41:58] a dull knife when it could be sharp. So back when I could have sharp knives in my house, I would just have a
+
+[42:04] routine and, you know, every Sunday before I started cooking family dinner, I would just go through my knives and
+
+[42:09] sharpen it. I used an edge pro, which was easy to set up because I could just keep most of my knives at a similar edge
+
+[42:14] angle and I could rip through them pretty quickly. An edge pro is not a good sharpening system to sharpen one knife. It's good to sharpen your whole set of knives. You know what I mean? Because you have to set it up and all that stuff. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, that's what you answer my question. Thanks very much. Thank you. All right. Thanks a lot. All right. so question three. I got to answer this one. again from Marvin. I'm throwing a cocktail party next month to Marcus leaving Ireland. Can you suggest some interesting cocktails and canape combos, or as I call them, canaps? I have an ISI, but no proper carbonation rig. I also have agar gelatin. I also need some non-alcoholic cocktails that are not lame as there will be some pregnant ladies in attendance. Okay, well, I hit the non-alcoholic stuff. I say make coriander, the coriander syrup, right? So if you make coriander syrup, just take make a simple syrup, crush up coriander, put it in there, add a little bit of like a hot pepper, preferably red, like Thai, red or serrano or something like
+
+[43:05] that. Um, that syrup makes a fantastic soda and you can carbonate in an ISI.
+
+[43:11] It's just gonna cost you more. And the way you carbonate in an ISI is by shaking, adding some water, shaking the syrup with water, and then putting one CO2 cartridge in, shaking a little bit, venting that entire one
+
+[43:23] off. You've cleared out all of the air in there in that now. Now put a 2nd charger on, shake it, and you'll get a good 2nd CO2 charger in your ISI. Vent very, very, let's sit for a couple of minutes after you shake it, let it vent very
+
+[43:36] slowly and you can get a decent soda, and that's good. That syrup is also really good as a cocktail for old-fashions. It makes a great old-fashioned, uh makes a good tequila, old-fashioned, good mezcal, old-fashioned. We've been using that and everything that if you do make an old-fashioned using coriander syrup, it's called a cliff
+
+[43:53] old-fashioned, because, you know, cliff are, you know, ex-intern cliff came up with the idea of making
+
+[43:59] a, what's it called? An old-fashioned with them syrup. Uh, you have any? Nastachi is going to think of good uh, knaps. Well, I answer your last question. And not, you have a next month. I have a week to think. We have a week to think of your connaps. Cannap. Can I pay? So I'll come back to it. And also, I will next week suggest some things you might be able to use with your one kilogram of Enzorbit it's in your kitchen. Listen, Marvin, if you have one kilogram events orbit in your kitchen, that's almost going to take up your entire 200 square foot space because one kilogram of
+
+[44:27] events orbit is a giant giant amount of insorbit. Insorbit, for all that you don't know, is the stuff that you make oils into powders with. But I'll come back with you on that Marvin next week and we'll do it. And that has been this week for cooking issues.
+
+[44:46] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[45:04] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[45:09] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Got my head all twisted.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. I host the cooking issues coming to you live, actually 15 minutes early today, right? Usually we start 15 minutes late. Today, we're starting 15 minutes early. Oh, whatever. Whatever, 10 minutes early is like 8 years early as far as we're concerned here. Anyway, coming to your semi-live from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday, from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Today, actually, we had to shift it a little bit earlier because I have to go do an interview on that's public radio, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's the splendid table. And some nincompoop thought that it would be a great idea for me to skip my own radio show to go do somebody else's, which makes no sense,
+
+[1:04] right? So should you happen to be listening early? Or, uh, or, you know, in the next 10 minutes or so, call in your questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Might as well actually go through the who's sponsoring yesterday, right? Now, today's it, well, it's sponsored by the modest pantry again, which is what, you know, we're used to having sponsored by, but we don't have a new
+
+[1:26] promo. So I'll just read the old one. Ready? Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate, hate, hate to overspend for pounds of supplies, and only a few grams are needed per application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and
+
+[1:46] enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers or even meat glue. You'll find it in modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantries, you're a one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries sequestrants, including sodium citrate and sodium hexometaphosphate. These ingredients act as a shrimp. I call that stuff shrimp. These ingredients act as a preservative and also mop-up stray calcium ions, which is helpful with working at hydrocoloids that gel in the presence of calcium, like sodium ogenate or gelan. Uh, fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of sodium hexametaphosphate to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 72 and placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Right? Yes. Oh, by the way, Jack, we have a request from Marvin Woodhouse, the gentleman that's moving from Ireland to Germany, more on him later, he requests
+
+[2:55] fools gold by the Stone Roses. Can we accommodate him for our break? Oh yes, we can. I like the Obama reference. Yes, we can. All right. In from Marty, just a quick question. I was making a quick red sauce by browning my meat, and because I was too lazy to chop, I buzzed the canned tomatoes, raw vegetables, and seasoning in a blender before adding it to the pot seemed to work. So in a long braise, is there any purpose for sweating the vegetables when you're not looking for caramelization? That's an interesting question. Right? Well, I don't know. Uh, I would assume that even if you're not browning, let's say let's take onions. Let's just take onions. First of all, I like to get a little color on some of my vegetables when I'm working with them when I'm sweating them out. What about you, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now, typically, you know, in a Frenchy French recipe, though, they're specifically not looking for color because they want to maintain, you know, the color of the sauce that they're making, even though all those classic French sauces end up
+
+[3:54] a gloppy brown anyway, right? I mean, let's face it, right? Anyway, so they're sweating them out to not get color. However, even below the, um, take an onion, even before real color is formed, there are flavor
+
+[4:06] changes that take place in terms of sweetness. I don't know if those same kind of flavor transformations are going to take place in the same way if you just blend them and then cook them. Certainly, in a long braise, the liquid will be there enough to soften the vegetables to cook them. But the question is, is there any significant flavor change by
+
+[4:26] pre-sweating and then adding, I don't know. I would bet that it'd probably be minor if it exists at all, except for perhaps onion sweetness, but it's an interesting question. That's the kind of thing you should really just do side by side trial, you know? Take one, blend it beforehand, cook it, take the other, sweat it, then blend it, and then bring them both
+
+[4:43] at the same temperature and serve it, make sure the dilution's right. Sounds like an interesting experiment, right? Yep. So follow that under. hey I have no idea. Okay, hi, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Carlos from Mark Younger. I was taking a truffles class at a local kitchen supply store. By the way, chocolate truffles, not the stuff that's growing underground, even though this
+
+[5:02] is the, you know, good season for crap that's growing underground. Actually, I guess it's a little late, right? Valentine's Day is the end? Yeah. Anyway, you're like, yeah, I'm not paying attention. No, Jack's texting me. Okay, yeah, yeah, sure. yeah Anyway. I was taking a troubles class at local kitchen supply store and ended up getting into a discussion with the chef about how one might use an immersion circulator to make dealing with chocolate easier.
+
+[5:21] It is pretty clear that it would be a great way to hold tempered chocolate as long as you were careful in getting all the water off the bags before you used the chocolate. The question we couldn't figure out is whether you could use the immersion circulator with its precise control of temperature to temper the chocolate in the 1st place. This would presumably require melting the chocolate at the desired temp, then lowering the temp to get the level you traditionally aim for by either seating or tabling the
+
+[5:43] chocolate, and then raising the temperature back up to get proper crystal formation. Are you aware of whether this works or whether there's another way to temper chocolate in the immersion circulator? Mark. Okay. That's an interesting question. I have been told a 1000000000 times that it works. I've never actually done it, but go into a very quick discussion of tempering chocolate for those out there who aren't hip
+
+[6:05] to chocolate tempering. So, uh, cocoa butter and chocolate is uh, goes into a number of different crystal forms, right? Only one of which is the desirable beta crystal that provides a snap and looks shiny and awesome and tastes awesome, right? Uh, it, it basically, is in direct distinction with beta
+
+[6:28] primed forms, which are softer, melt at a lower temperature, don't have a snap, and it's just, in
+
+[6:33] general, crap, right? So you really want a good foremost applications, although not for truffles. Truffles is fine. You know what I mean? Who cares in a truffle? a ganache. Ganache. Anyway, so, um, uh, what you want to do when you temper chocolate. Now, the beta prime crystals, right? They will swamp out. you're cooling chocolate that's melted, right? Like the beta prime crystals will swamp out the good beta crystals and you'll end up with untempered chocolate. This is why if you just heat chocolate up and then let it cool back down again, you get an untempered sloppy mess,
+
+[7:03] right? So the good news is that, well, here's how you do it. So you heat up the chocolate and you melt all the crystals out. Then you cool it down and into the high 80s somewhere. And in that range, in the 80s somewhere, uh, crystals start forming, mostly the crappy ones, the, uh, the, you know, beta primes, right? And also the betas. Then you heat the mixture up slowly again into a range where all the beta prime crystals melt, but
+
+[7:29] the sorry, yeah, the beta prime crystals melt, but the beta crystals are still good. And then you hold it there for a while, and then when you chill it again, those beta crystals act as the seeds and you get tempered
+
+[7:39] chocolate, bang, bang, right? And since it's all about very accurate temperature control. This is possible. You can do this with an immersion circulator, and you certainly could melt all of the chocolate up to a high temperature, drop it all, wait for it to get viscous, and you see it, start seating it, and then bring it
+
+[7:55] up very accurately with an immersion circulator. However, you should be able to do an even simpler technique, which is throw the entire block of probably grated pre-tempered chocolate,
+
+[8:09] right, if you start with a tempered chocolate, in a bag, vacuum it down, and throw it in a circulator at like 92,
+
+[8:16] 9192 in a place that will melt the undesirable crystals, but leave all your sea crystals intact.
+
+[8:23] And I think that will work. I don't know if you need to take it above the total melting point of the chocolate
+
+[8:27] before it'll become viscous enough to work. I don't think so, because I've heard that I've heard you can do that, although I've never tried it. Either technique would work. It would just be much simpler if you could just throw it in at the working temperature and go from there, right? I don't know. Give it a try. I've heard it works. I've never done it. You ever done it? No. No. You could ask Brooks or someone. Anyway. Carlos, by the way, here's one, here's one for you. Hi, Nastasia, Dave, Jack and the other guy. Wow. Wow. The other guy. Even Indie Jesus has her name. Yeah, yeah, right. Even Indie Jesus gets called out by name. Carlos becomes the other guy. You know, that reminds me. I think I don't know if I mentioned this on the air, but the very 1st season of Gilligan's Island in the song.
+
+[9:14] It's, you know, Gilligan, the Skipper 2, the millionaire, and his wife, the movie star, and the rest.
+
+[9:21] That's what they say. They're like, the movie star and the rest here on... Really? Like, it takes just as much energy to say Professor and Mary Ann, as it does to say, and the rest. And I think, you know, and because Mary Ann was obviously the hot one, right? And the professor was really cool. Everyone liked the professor, right? So in subsequent seasons, it was, you know, the movie star, Professor Anne, Marion, which sounds even better than Anne the rest and the rest. Really? Come on now. And then, you know, Mary Ann's the one that ended up writing like the Gilligan's Island cookbooks, and I think keeps track of all the reunion stuff of all the people that are still alive. How you know that? How do I know that? How does how do you not know that? First of all, Gilligan's Island, you know, cultural milestone in American TV
+
+[10:08] history and, you know, Carlos, the other guy. Anyway, he has a name. Now you're pulling out the Jim Croce references. That's actually the only reason why. The only reason why I was hoping. But so for those of you that don't know, Jim Croce, the whatever, how you reclassify his singing, you know, died in a plane crash, I
+
+[10:27] guess, in the 70s, Nastasia and I have this ongoing kind of Jim Croce inside joke
+
+[10:32] thing. Yeah, love hate thing. Like Jim Croaching, when he's singing something, he's like, he never gets to the damn point. Like, he'll call someone on the telephone, an operator. He doesn't give a rat's ass about what he's talking about. You know, sit there and chew this operator's ear off for like 3 or 4 minutes about this like lady he's trying to
+
+[10:48] call and then he's like, you know what, forget about it and keep the dime. Like she gives a crap about the dime. She's working for the phone company or this other one. He's like calling up this girl at like, you know, 3 in the freaking morning, saying, you know, I know it's kind of late. I hope I didn't wake you. What the hell? It's late. And you're like, this long ass story about how you guys had to say that you love her in a song. Can't you do that at a reasonable damned hour? makes no damn sense. Croce. We love him anyway. We love coaching. Anyway, so they got a name references to a Croce song, long way of getting around. Anyway, so Matthew says, I've been playing around with making mozzarella at home using some commercial cheese curds. It comes out really nice. I just cut the curds into little pieces, let them come up to room temperature, heat up some lightly salted water between
+
+[11:31] 180, 190 degrees Fahrenheit, pour it over the curds, powder them a little,
+
+[11:36] then pull out a ball of the cheese. After that, I usually plunge the ball into a bath of lightly salted cold water and help it set a little. The cheese is good, but I want it to be better. My goal is a softer, fresh mozzarella cheese as opposed to something harder, squeakier, or stringy. Do you have any strategies or suggestions for making better mozzarella without upgrading the quality of my
+
+[11:54] curds? Thanks, Matthew. Well, that's a very interesting question. Mozzarella is one of the, you know, it's one of those strange things in life. That the simpler a product is often the easier it is for us to find major differences with kind of minor things and technique,
+
+[12:11] right? So bread is a classic example, yeast, salt, water, flour, and yet look at the variances in bread, right? Or coffee is another example. And in general, more complicated, something is easier it is to cover up flaws and techniques or ingredients because there's just a mishmash of crap going on, right? So mozzarella is one of these things that's supposed to taste of the fresh milk. And so you have all of the factors involved before the cheese curd is made. Or, you know, there's the quality of the milk, right? Then there is, I was reading a bunch of studies this morning on the effect of different starter cultures, on the texture and taste of mozzarella cheese, and apparently they have a huge impact.
+
+[12:50] But the key thing with mozzarella curd is the pH, the acidity level has to be right when it's made or it won't have the proper texture, okay? So you have to start with good curds. That said, the commercial curves are what everyone, and by the way, the way it works is it is, the acidity is
+
+[13:09] necessary to get the stringiness, right? Because the pH is drastically affecting how the cheese curds are going to interact when they're melted out and pulled.
+
+[13:18] uh, to make apostophilata style cheese dough. And the same pH is the reason why you add wine to a fondue, Nastasia's favorite thing because she loves the Swiss,
+
+[13:26] because it kind of increased. It basically alters the way that the casing is going to interact with itself. Anyways. So, um, so all of that stuff is very vinyl. That said, once you say, okay, look, I'm going to have this commercial made curd, there's a huge variance in how the final mozzarella is going to taste based on
+
+[13:47] the, um, based on your practices afterwards. And so everything is makes a difference, including how you slice the curd, because that's going to change how fast the heat from the hot water goes in, the temperature of the water you use, whether there's any salt in the water, and
+
+[14:04] finally, the forming technique and how much you stretch it and pull it, right? So presumably, um, and, and to show this, you know, I don't know if you live near New York, but you go to New York, you can go to any one of 5 or 10 different mozzarella joints and, you know, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut,
+
+[14:21] major, metropolitan area. You go to like 5 different fresh mozzarella joints, they're all getting their mozzarella curds from polio. And yet their cheese styles are radically different. So some people do a lot of stretching, right, and pulling. And that, and think about what's happening. If you look at mozzarella under a microscope, getting electron microscope. what you'll see is kind of these pulled layers, and think of it the same way that you think of bread dough. These pulled layers, in between the pulled layers, you'll find trapped water, trapped whey,
+
+[14:48] and in fact, globules. So, um, Nastasia hates that word globule. She does. making her globule face, which is very similar to her vegan face. So, um, that stretching is going to align and create that structure, squeeze out the water and make kind of thin sheets. So when you're making something like a barata that needs to hold its outside shape, they probably do a lot of a stretching to make it kind
+
+[15:09] of, or some people will even stretch it once, remelt it and stretch it again. Or some people prefer a softer curve with less softer mozzarella with less structure that has more weeping and more large open pores. I tend to like the less structured, more weepy kind of mozzarella about you stuff. Yeah. I mean, that's what I prefer. And so I would recommend probably less, less needing, but what I really recommend you do is find a mozzarella joint that you like. Go there and watch what they do as opposed to what you do. and see kind of what the difference is. You know, at the at the school, the French culinary institute, they teach mozzarella making to all of the students, and it's all universally horrible,
+
+[15:46] right? I mean, no offense to the students, but the 1st time you make mozzarella, it's not gonna be that good. In fact, I've only made it a couple of times. And I stopped because my wife was like, you suck at this. We should just go, you know, to someone we like, like DePolo's, who knows how to make mozzarella and buy it. And in fact, I said this before, like, like, I'm not going to get a debate over who makes the good or best mozzarella, but I like the guys at the polos. I go to them all the time. When they when their cheesemaker, who is hired by the current, you know, generation's father, retired, they
+
+[16:19] changed their cheese style to be more in line. their mozzarella changed radically because they changed their their forming technique from the one that their father and his cheesemaker had favored, which was a less porous, less weepy mozzarella
+
+[16:34] to, you know, to one that is kind of softer. So it's entirely in your control. I would go observe someone with the real hands because it's a real art and practice to making a mozzarella, yeah? Yeah? No? Yeah. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break. Call your question, 2718-497-2128, 49,
+
+[16:53] 718-4972-128 cooking issues.
+
+[18:01] Hello, welcome back to Cooking Yours. Calling your questions. We should be live now for normal people who are calling in. 2718-4972128. That's 718-497-2128. In case you're just tuned in, this show is, again, brought to you by the Modernist Pantry. Go back and listen to it. It's the same promos before. Uh, so, uh, Marvin uh, Wodehouse uh, called in. I got to go get. I was looking at his link that he sent me on his public transportation because I found it turns out that I guess in the last couple of weeks I've been railing on New York's public transportation system and I really shouldn't because I love it.
+
+[18:38] I use it all the time. I mean, I'm appreciative of New York City's subway system, which is, as far as I know, the only 24 hour subway system in the world. So we don't have any like, you know, crazy night buses in our city that you have to like get scraped onto a bus with like all
+
+[18:53] the people who can barely hold themselves, you know, hold themselves upright or have already turned into a shivering massive jelly.
+
+[18:59] And, you know, so I'm really appreciative of our subway system. Oh, basically on that before I go on. You know, as some of you might know, we recently opened a bar, Booker and Dax. And now, I'm in the habit of quite often walking home at 3 and 4 in the
+
+[19:15] morning, stone sober, which is not something that I'm used to. And man, the pizza, the people on the streets of New York are messed up looking at 4 in the
+
+[19:24] morning, right? But it's like, you ever been to England back in the day, like when all the pubs were like closed at 11 and people, it's like basically like at 11 o'clock, people stumbling around
+
+[19:33] England. So 11 o'clock in England looks like, you know, 2 or 3 here. I think it's changed. I don't know. Anyway, so, uh, he was, uh, Marvin was showing us uh, his, uh, he moved to Wupertal, Germany, and it was showing us his public transportation, which is some crazy ass monorail called the
+
+[19:51] Schwebiban. You like that name? Shuabiban. Anyway. So, well, more on him later. Let's go back to our regular questions. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. Tom Fisher writes in from Lansdowne, PA. I have a 3 liter centrifuge arriving in about a week, and I'll need to bleach out the rabies. Any tips for making sure everything is safe before I use it. Also, what would you recommend as the 1st thing I spin? I think I'm making some fruit juices. How is the centrifuge with strawberries as well? Let's start backwards. Centrifuge strawberries are fantastic. I recommend getting a hold of some Pectanex Ultra SPL. None of this stuff really centrifuge as well without the addition of some enzyme. if you really want it clear. I mean, you can centrifuge out and get a puck and a super, but it's not, your yield is going to be
+
+[20:43] poor and it's not going to be clear unless you, uh, unless you add the SPL. If you add the SPL, you can just literally blend strawberries in a blender. Add a couple of grams of Pectanex ultra SPL enzyme, uh, to the strawberry in the blender, hold the back of your hand against the blender until it warms up to a little bit above body temperature.
+
+[21:05] Let it sit for about 10 minutes. The enzyme's going to break down a lot of the pectin and make it a lot more, you know, less viscous so that when you spin it, you're going to get a very good separation between, you know, of the of
+
+[21:17] the solids from the liquids. And your yield should be very high on the order of 70% or so. One of the things you have to worry about when you're centrifuging is that when you blend something like strawberries, there's a lot of air that's whipped into
+
+[21:29] it and strangely that air doesn't necessarily pop when you spin it. Some of those air bubbles can actually withstand the G-force is involved in centerfuging. So, if you have access to a vacuum machine, it's a good idea to quickly, at a very low temperature, obviously, because it's in a vacuum, do a quick
+
+[21:45] deeration or boil out of the air in the strawberry in your vacuum machine before you
+
+[21:50] centrifuge. If not, it's not going to be too big of a problem. Just spin it for 10 or 15 minutes, put it through a coffee filter or through a piece of muslin or something like
+
+[21:58] that, to catch anything that goes through, and we do strawberries all the time, and we love it. Now, back on safety and bleaching out the rabies. There's 2 questions as to safety. There is, there are, well, three, really. There's poison that might be in it, right? You have to worry about, then there are, you know, biohazards that might be in it, like, uh, infectious agents, right? And then all the, uh, probably not poison. probably mainly going to be biological agents are going to cause you problems. And 3rd is mechanical damage that could lead to unsafe operation in the centrifuge, right? So you have to take care of all three. So, uh, the aluminum swinging buckets in your 3 liter centrifuge need to be uh, 1st soaked in a bleach solution, right? And then I pressure cook them, right? When you're pressure cooking, if you want to actually sterilize, what you need to do is make sure there's no air at all in the system because it
+
+[22:55] can, it can cause problems with sterilization. So you want to submerse the buckets in your pressure cooker and pressure cook them for like 20 minutes at 2nd ring and you should have killed anything that ails it. You can then, if you'd like, re-bleach them and then let them air dry. You don't want to use any detergents, really. You scrub them with, you know, with something, but you don't want to use any harsh detergents because they can affect the aluminum, the integrity of the
+
+[23:23] aluminum, and you do not, one thing you always want to make sure is that you do not affect the integrity of the aluminum buckets.
+
+[23:29] The other thing you want to be careful of is you want to inspect your buckets, your aluminum buckets for damage. If your buckets are damaged, then they're probably unsafe. You want to inspect your rotor. Make sure that there's no cracks or problems with the rotor. If there are, then it's unsafe. So you got to ensure that all of that is is okay. You want to make sure that you balance your buckets properly. Get a trip balance. They can balance the 2 buckets against each other and make sure you keep everything balanced at all times. Make sure everything spins freely. The inside of your, the entire centrifuge should be completely wiped down with a
+
+[24:04] concentrated bleach sanitizing solution. You should then pour bleach sanitizing solution in the drain hole of your centrifuge and let it come out, and then do this several times, and that's
+
+[24:15] the technique that I use to bleach the rabies out of these things, and to get them safe to go. The strawberry technique, I told you, works with any non-acidic fruit, right? Even things that are mildly acidic, that will work with. If you need to clarify, like we do at the bar, lime juice,
+
+[24:36] you're going to need to move to a different set of a different battery of clarification techniques. No 3 liter centrifuge that you get is going to be adequate to clarify lime juice on its own. That requires about 48,000 G's. You could do it at 27,000, but it doesn't taste good, but you're not going to achieve that in a standard 3 liter centrifuge. So what you're going to need to use is a combination of the enzyme I
+
+[24:59] mentioned, Peck and XXPL, and wine finding agents. We use kesosol, which is a suspended silica gel, suspended silica
+
+[25:06] sol, rather, and kita sand, which is from shrimp shells. hydrocoloid. And our procedure very quickly is going to be definitely boring to people who don't know who don't have this crap. But I'll give it to you anyway. Here it is real quick. It's add 2 grams per liter of Pecanex
+
+[25:21] Ultra SPL, and 2 grams per liter of Kesal, suspended silica saw,
+
+[25:26] to the two-year lime juice, stir it, let it sit 20 minutes, add 2 grams of kitasan,
+
+[25:32] stir. Let's hit 20 minutes, add 2 more grams of kesel salt, stir it, and then spin it out, and you should get 100% clear lime juice. And the reason we add it so many times is you're playing a game with charges where you're adding
+
+[25:44] charge to something causing particles to flock together, then adding a different charge, causing those particles to flock
+
+[25:50] together, and so on and so on. But anyway, good luck with your centrifuge. I'm sure you will enjoy it, right? Are we doing another commercial breaker now? No. No? We're ripping on through. Uh, man, I wonder whether we actually rip through everything. We can just talk about other stuff, did we? No, Marvin. Oh, yeah. Well, he said specifically, Marvin, from Shuebi Ban, the Shuebi Ban, which he rides to work every day, which is the only cool thing in New York, you can ride like that is
+
+[26:16] the, is the tram to, what is it called? Roosevelt's Island, right? And the reason that's cool is because you can imagine Rucker Howard and Sylvester Stallone shooting at themselves like they did in Cobra, which is an
+
+[26:29] awesome, bad movie, right? Everyone likes Rucker Howard, right? You got to like Rucker Howard and Sylvester Stallone together, right? No? Yeah. She's nodding her head. Not making her vegan face. She's doing well. But here's a specifically was told not to read this whole dang thing, but I will read this one
+
+[26:45] section. We asked why he was moving to Germany from Belfast. And he said, by the way, I'm moving to Germany from Belfast, Ireland. I have a new job in Germany. It will also be cool to experience a new food culture and for my kids to learn a new language, the beer kicks ass too. That's fair. Beer kicks ass too. And here's the interesting part as far as cooking issues is concerned. I am a formulation scientist. This means I developed the recipes and manufacturing process for new pharmaceutical projects, products. Please tap my knowledge for any queries on spray drying, tablet compaction, or the use of cyclodextrins as I would be pleased to help. Uh, well, that's stuff that we're very interested in, right? I'm specifically interested in. tablet compaction. Like, I've been looking for a while for a good way to make our own
+
+[27:29] mints and whatnot in a kind of a quick fashion. Now, there's people on the internet. I think I've mentioned this on this show who sell basically a little twisty thing that's almost like a pipe with a twist doodle in
+
+[27:41] it, and you could tighten down on that sucker and make, like, individual, you know, tablets. But, you know, if you know of anything, Marvin, that I can get on eBay to bang out tablets. It doesn't cost an arm or leg or isn't the size of a small Volkswagen beetle. Uh, I'd be uh, I'd be certainly happy. And also, if you ever know anyone getting rid of a pile of size spray drying unit. I would love what. You know who has one, Nathan Mirvold, of course. Nathan Mirvold. Hmm, Mirabold. Uh, okay. Now, one other thing, a question that's not on, and by the way, we have to, we're ending this show. The reason we, I already mentioned the reason why we, anyway, so we don't have to mention it again. But we'll mention this show on that show. We'll mention initial on that show. You'll mention that. I will? Now, well, I'll tell you what, let's go to one quick commercial break because we have another, like, 10 minutes before we have to go. So let's go to commercial breakjack. If we have, maybe we have some Jim Croce. don't know. Do you think you got some Jim Croce? Anyway, you still have one last chance to call your questions? Two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[28:46] Little south side. Oh, Chicago. It's the Battles, part of town. And if you go down there, you better just be well,
+
+[28:59] man named Leroy Brown. Now Leroy. More in trouble. You see, you stand about 6 foot four. All the downtown ladies call it Treetop over all the men's girls call him, sir. And he's bad. Bad. Leroy Brown. Fettest man in the whole downtown. Better than old King Kong. We know there on the junkyard dog Now, lead wrong, he or gambler. Danny like his fancy clothes. He did like his fancy clothes. Something else he liked to do is to shine his diamond ring under everybody's nose. You know, do you were you aware of that fact? You know, and, you know, for those of you that don't know this song, Leroy Brown, at the end of the song, well, the reason he looks like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone is actually what happens to him at the end of the song.
+
+[29:51] And the reason is he Leroy Brown learned a lesson about messing with the wife of a jealous man. It just goes to show, you shouldn't mess with anyone's, you know, spouse anyway. Yeah, right? Wow, Jack. Yeah. quick. Yeah. Nice. Nice. All right. So this is actually not a writing question, but someone from
+
+[30:10] Milk Bar, you know, one of our sister companies, right? came and said that at Milk Bar, which is Tozi's, Christina Tozi's company, which is like infinitely
+
+[30:22] expanding. There's like they have, what, they have one in Brooklyn and like 3 in Manhattan, right? Right? Anyway, said that they had been getting some locally produced milk that had not been
+
+[30:35] homogenized, right? And the issue they were having with it was when they were making cappuccinos. They said milk is delicious, right? But the non-homogenized milk wasn't foaming properly when they were making cappuccinos. And what did I think? And I said, quite honestly, I don't know. I had no idea. So, I looked it up, and in fact, it's true that homogenizing increases the ability of cappuccinos to foam.
+
+[31:02] Now, she had also said to me something strange. She said, we tried to heat it, right? Because someone said that if you heat the milk, it's going to increase its ability to
+
+[31:10] foam, and that went exactly counter to everything that I learned about forming milk foams when you're steaming them, which is that you can't really steam milk twice because you
+
+[31:21] denatriated the proteins, right? So then I went to try and research this thing. It turns out the entire field is completely confused and it was hard for me to get a straight answer. I was expecting to be able to go to the scientific literature and get a straight answer within like a half hour. But like 45 minutes later reading, I still didn't feel like I had a straight answer. So it's an interesting problem. Here's, so UC Davis, uh, on their milk site, which UC Davis, I usually, you know, I love UC Davis for anything kind of food science
+
+[31:48] related. Although dairy, you go to Guelph, you know, you Guelph for their website. But basically they say that heating milk, pasteurizing milk, everyone says homogenizing makes milk foam better, but they don't really propose a mechanism for
+
+[32:04] why or how, but everyone in the world says that homogenizing milk makes it foam better. So they should go ahead and get homogenized milk. you know what? We can loan them our homogenizers, see whether that helps. I mean, it doesn't produce as good a homogenization as ultra, you know, high pressure homogenization, but they could try it. Anyway, I hadn't thought about that, loaning the net sucker. Anyways. I was? Yeah, you were like, should we? Really? Huh. For what? It's like you had a premonition. Oh, no, that's no, you're talking about my rotor stater homogenizer. I'm talking about the ultrasound one that totally diments your hearing and black. Do you, do you, does that still bother you? that ultrasonic commodenizer? Remember? It's like it's like everyone like falls on the ground writhing in pain except for me because of the years of blasting my ears out with
+
+[32:46] headphones. Anyways. So, homogenization, right? But heating is an interesting question. So when you heat milk, like you tend not to denature the caseine proteins with normal pasteurization, but you do
+
+[33:00] denature the whey proteins. Oh, I hear I have a call. So I'll get back to this, finish up with it, caller, you're on the air. Right, you know, I heard you last week and you were talking about, you had a deep fryer in your kitchen, and I guess I'd, I'd never thought about putting a, a commercial deep fryer in a residential kitchen
+
+[33:18] because, you know, I've just been using a Dutch oven. Because from my understanding, all of the, uh, the, uh, home use, deep
+
+[33:26] fires, so, uh, so I was wondering if you could, you could talk a little bit about the, the logistics of using, uh, because I, I thought some of those random, like, uh, 220 if
+
+[33:35] you had run 220 in your kitchen or 1st, you know. Right. Do you have gas? Uh, I don't. You don't have stars. come on now. You don't have gas. Okay. Do you live, uh, in, do you, do you live in an apartment or in a house? I live in a house and I have actually wired 220 before. Um, and there's 220 going to the stove, but I don't, you know. Right. You should be able then to get an electric fryer. Certain electric fryers are better than other electric fryers. Here's the key. The key to why, I forget what I was saying about it, but the key to a commercial fryer, why it's so much
+
+[34:19] better. There's it's a number of things. It's not just the power, although the power is huge. One, they have a much larger volume of oil in them. So you have a very, um, you have a good surface to volume ratio, right? So you're not, you know, it's good that way. But the key, and the reason why even small commercial tabletop fryers suck is because they don't have a cold zone in them.
+
+[34:45] So if you look at a real good fryer. What you'll notice is the heating element isn't on the bottom of the of the kettle, right? It's nowhere near it. And in a commercial tube fryer, you know, like a gas tube fryer, the tube is there. You're really only frying in the upper level of the oil, and below it's a big area of unheated stuff. And that area is crucial to the uh, to the functioning of the fryer, because when you're working with a Dutch oven, right? And a Dutch oven, by the way, assuming you have like good power in your
+
+[35:19] stove is going to be better than a crappy little fryer, which they're just underpowered. You know what I mean? Like there's just no way about around it. They're underpowered. And so the recovery time is very low. And when the recovery time is very low, it takes, they typically over ramp, they overheat the oil, and then they go back down low. And so your oil degrades extremely quickly, and your products, you know, absorb too much oil, and it's never very good.
+
+[35:41] So you're right. And assuming that a larger quantity of oil in a Dutch oven over a
+
+[35:46] high powered range is going to be better than most home fryers. That's 100% true. Now, in a commercial fryer though, where you have a cold zone underneath the heating. When stuff comes off of your food, which it inevitably will, right? It sinks to the bottom into a relatively cold zone. So it doesn't scorch, right? And it doesn't impart a nasty burnt flavor to your oil. When you're heating in a home fryer or in a Dutch oven. You'll notice the bottom of your oil has a bunch of brown and black
+
+[36:17] particles and that over a course of a couple of hours of frying, you'll start tasting burnt and rancid nasty flavors in your oil, right?
+
+[36:24] Yeah, that never happens in a commercial fryer. So a commercial fryer, 1st of all, never overheats the oil because the heating element typically has a very large surface area, especially in a gas fryer, but also in a
+
+[36:36] well constructed electric fryer. And it has a huge amount of power so it can heat up very quickly, but without locally overheating, like you do if you burn the bottom of the pan. And two, it has this cold zone. So all in all, you can get, so yes, you're using my my fryer holes like 6 gallons of oil, but 5.5 , 6 gallons of oil, but I can use that 5.5 , 6 gallons of
+
+[37:03] oil for like 5 big fry nights in which I'm frying
+
+[37:08] everything and every piece of food that comes out of it tastes delicious and is noily.
+
+[37:13] Do you know what I mean? And the way I always test, I keep my fryer covered when not in use, you know, you strain out the oil, right, to get rid of the particles because they can increase rancidity. And then you put the oil back in, you cover it so that you're not getting a lot of oxidation. You know, mine also is covered with a wooden block, so it's not getting any light in or anything like that. And it stays great. And I always, uh, the day before I know I'm going to have another Friday night, I'll uh, put a piece of bread into it. And bread's very good because it soaks up a lot of oil, but is it self-neutral and you'll be able to taste any sort of rancidity or any sort of fat breakdown, whether the oil is going bad on that piece of bread and know whether you need to
+
+[37:49] uh, change it out. If you are frying, you want to fry actually quite a bit each time with something like
+
+[37:56] French fries or potato chips that absorb a lot of oil. And the reason is, is then you can just keep replenishing the fat in the fryer. And if you replenish the oil quickly enough, you don't need to throw away the oil.
+
+[38:09] That's how continuous frying works. When they're making potato chips industrially, potato chips are like 50% of
+
+[38:14] oil or, you know, so they they're soaking up enough oil that the oil never goes bad. You know what I mean? Yeah. The other thing is get good ventilation in your house. Do you have the ability to put a decent hood in over your fryer? Yeah, I can. Yeah, here's what I did. Uh, my current situation, I have an actual residential, uh, an actual residential, uh, sorry, a commercial
+
+[38:36] hood back in the day before I uh, had that. I went to Home Depot. I bought 2 of the crappy little hoods, and I bolted them together, like, uh, I bolted back to back and put them directly over the fryer, and I just sunk it down to very close to the level of the
+
+[38:52] fryer so that, uh, even though the extraction is crappy, there was nowhere for it to go. And so I was able to get all of this stuff out. And that worked great except for I eventually melted out a part of
+
+[39:04] the hood just because it was so close to the fryer, but you can make up for good hood by putting 2 crappy hoods together and bolting it low down to the
+
+[39:13] fryer. The disadvantage there is you have a weird ass hood in your space. The other disadvantage is that they're loud. those small home hoods are loud. Another thing you can do is put it outside on your porch, like a covered porch. and then just scoot it over away from the porch to fry, but then you're can only do it in fair weather. You know what I mean? Yeah. Is this helpful at all? Yeah, yeah, very much. Thank you. All right. Cool. Thanks for calling in. And Nastasia is now telling me that I'm now late because I got to go to the splendid table interview, but I'll finish up real quick with the milk. So, uh, turns out have to do more research because, uh, it is true that all of the milk that we use, Mark Prince, who wrote like kind of the on Coffee Geek, wrote the primer that everyone uses for
+
+[40:00] doing, um, you know, latte art style, uh, foaming, microfoam and milk. Basically, his point has always been that when you heat milk, you denature whey proteins. And when they're denatured they don't foam as well. Although UC Davis says that when you denature some of the whey proteins, it actually films better. So who's right? I don't know. And the other thing it's true, think about it. Mark Prince of Files, of which I am one, right? When you use milk, you are always using almost
+
+[40:27] always unless you aren't using pasteurized milk, and the crap foam's just fine. So I'm going to have to do more research. Please anyone call in with some questions or comments regarding that. And hopefully I hear more about tablet compaction for next week's show. Thank you and come back next week for cooking shows. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[41:03] Radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. All twisted. And I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking issues. Coming to you live. I love the Heritage Radio Network in the back world of Roberta's Pizzeria and
+
+[0:32] book, we're brought to you today. I assume by the modern's pantry, is that correct? That is correct. We'll be reading there. Our printer's broke, so I'll be reading it, I guess. Oh, yeah? Nice. You gonna read it with feeling with gusto? I'll do my best. Yeah? But you do have a caller. I'll find one. All right. So, anyone else who's waiting? Call in 27184972128. 718-497-2128. Call her, you're on the air. Hi. Hello? Howdy. Sorry, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm Tammy. I'm calling from Sydney, Australia. I'm a bit safe right now. Hello. I did have a couple of questions. One about meat blue. Um, one about infusing truffle flavor and one about MacGyver and a sous vide. Very good. You're not affiliated with the Today tonight show, are you? No, no, unfortunately. you know, they're the ones in Australia. They're the ones in Australia who had the anti-Miklu thing. Remember that? Did you see that? Um, sorry? Did you see, in Australia, today tonight's show was the, they were the, the people that had the anti-meat glue telecast. Did you see that back when it aired about a year ago? Weirdly enough, I saw it on your blog rather than on TV. It just kind of shows you how much TV I watch. Um, but what I was watching, though, was your um, science and cooking lecture was Harvard, um, very enjoyable. I now clarify all my liquid using a gaga. Um, but, uh, what I did notice that you said when you were talking about your
+
+[1:57] Makume Gane, um, fish, was that, there was a small amount of ammonia produced when you were using meat glue. Correct. Um, and I was wondering about, you know, you said on the
+
+[2:08] primer in your blog that, um, this dissipates before you eat it. Now, does it dissipate like through cooking? Is it, you know, if you're dealing with raw foods, especially fish? Is it really good to, you know, backpack it, take out the backpack and then
+
+[2:24] weighted or like, is there any particular thing going on or?
+
+[2:30] Yes. That's an excellent question. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, meat glue is an enzyme that we use to bond different proteins
+
+[2:38] together, when it's doing that bonding, a small amount of ammonia is produced in the reaction. And in fact, you can use the reaction as a gauge for how strong your meat glue is by dipping something like raw chicken into the meat glue and smelling
+
+[2:52] it and making sure that you have that aroma that a reaction is taking place. Uh, Moka Megane is a Japanese uh, metalworking technique where uh, different layers are laminated together and then sanded
+
+[3:03] flat and have a wood grain kind of appearance. So a number of years ago, I did a recipe with fish, different colored fish. They're layered together. And then cut on a slicer, so you get a wood grain effect with the fish, where the very thin layers are glued together. And that recipe, I put some salt and sugar, so it's cured, but it's not cooked. And so when I originally did that recipe, I did
+
+[3:26] notice the aroma kind of of the meat glue because it was a very thick block, I'd overuse the meat glue. And so it was noticeable, and that thing had been in a backpack all the way up until the time it was sliced.
+
+[3:39] So to remedy that, I used much less meat glue. this, you know, the subsequent times that I made that recipe. And I also backed it to compress it, but then cut it out of the backpack and let
+
+[3:52] it, uh, let it sit and all of the uh, ammonia dissipate. I'm only very volatile, right? So it's going to dissipate. You know, in fact, there's a baking powders that are based on ammonia that are used specifically for cookies. And yeah, and they bake out over time. But if you put them in something that's super thick, right? Or you don't cook it enough, they taste horrible because the ammonia is still there. So ammonia is volatile, we'll leave, especially in a cooked item is not a problem ever, really. But in the in the fish. Um, I noticed, you know, that it was a problem. Additionally, I've run tests where if you add a boatload of meat glue to something that's cooked in a bag that's never taken out of the
+
+[4:31] bag that some people can detect something even on a long cooked braise. But it takes a boatload of Miklu to do that. Cool. Um, and then thank you very much. Um, and the 2nd question was, I heard that truffles
+
+[4:48] were really good at dessert, and I really wanted to use the flavor of truffles in chocolate truffles,
+
+[4:55] like a joke. So I was wondering what the best way maybe to infuse, because I know truffles infuse really well into butter, but then to make the
+
+[5:04] ganache, it's just chocolate and cream, right? So, I'm not quite sure what the best way to go around that. You can use butter in a ganache instead. I mean, I've done plenty of butter ganaches. You just had to find a butter-based, uh, or you could infuse directly into the cream if you wanted to use cream, but I do plenty of
+
+[5:21] uh, butter base worked. I mean, textures are going to change so much, but I mean,
+
+[5:26] I've done plenty of butter, butter and chocolate, ganaches you can infuse into, or you confuse directly into the cream. A good way to infuse something like a truffle where it's expensive and you don't want to lose a lot of aromas to infuse it in a vacuum bag.
+
+[5:40] So that you, yeah, right? Just put it in a vacuum bag, suck it. And then basically everything stays contained in there and you're not going to be volatilizing a lot of the aroma of the truffle. Cool, I didn't think about that. If you have access to a vac machine. If not, you could, if you have access to a vacuum machine. If you don't, you could, you know, use a ziploc or something like that. Okay. Um, and my 3rd question was about McGovern a sous vide machine. So there were discussions. I had one really late, really one night, um, with my friends about how expensive to these machines are and so on
+
+[6:17] and so forth. Um, and somebody suggested using uh, modifying a deep fryer with a dial setting, um,
+
+[6:26] and a really high quality tropical fish tank water pump. Right. Would you recommend or just, or, you know, not recommended or, you know, how, how well do you think that would work? Um, Well, fortunately, there are tons of people out there that are
+
+[6:43] selling kits right now for doing, basically, what you really need is a temperature control. I mean, the pump, yes, you can use an aquarium pump. There's any one of a number of pumps you can get in the sub, $20 range that will circulate, right? The problem with a deep fryer, a couple problems with deep fryer. Well, it depends. Like, I don't know what kind of deep fryers you're looking at, but most of the deep fryers that they sell here don't have exposed elements. And if they don't have an exposed element, you're not going to get very good heat transfer. So you're gonna get a lot, uh, it's gonna be hard to get, uh, you know, a nice steady, um, steady temperature. Do you know what I mean? You might get some porpoising or it's going to take a long time to get up and be accurate. If you have something with an exposed element, great. it'll work fine. The problem I have with deep fryers or any contained vessel like that is you're really limited in the size of, um, size of, you know, what you can cook. So, you know, what you basically need is
+
+[7:39] a PID temperature controller. These can now be had for on the order of $30 US, right? You're going to need some sort of a solid state or regular relay. Again, these now can be got for like 7 bucks, a like a type
+
+[7:57] K thermocouple for temperature measurement, waterproof one. That's another seven. So now you're at like 14, 30, 35,
+
+[8:05] uh, a pump for, um, you know, another 20. Now you're at 55 and then you're going to need the heating element. Now, heating element, you could really use anything. There's lots of really cheap immersion heating elements out there. The trick is just not to electrocute yourself. Yeah, I mean, I did a project once just for giggles where I, you know, walked up a bunch of stuff that I had gotten on eBay and I bought a bunch of immersion coffee heaters,
+
+[8:33] a really cheap, like, you know, $3 ones you get at, you know, at the local dollar
+
+[8:37] store and it worked. You know, you want to try to get at least up to about a 1000 watts of heating, which is what the, you know, standard commercial ones do. But, um, but, you know, I stuck my hand into the uh, into the water and because there's a lot of leakage current out of those things because they weren't very well constructed. Do you know what I mean? I mean, no one's expecting you to stick. Yeah, right. No one's expecting you to stick your hand into your cup of coffee. And so they don't care so much that there's a little bit of leakage coming out of the
+
+[9:04] heater, right? But you care very deeply whether you get electrocuted when you're putting your hand into
+
+[9:09] a water bath to pull out a piece of food. So that's something to look at. But, you know, there are tons of, I don't know, in Australia, but I know here in the US we have a bunch of suppliers. And there's a, you know, I know that there's suppliers in Australia because I've been thwarted by trying to buy something and found out it was an Australian website.
+
+[9:26] So I know that there's people out there that are selling this kind of stuff. So you should be able to get everything all told working for under $100. Now, um, the problem then is like trying to get a nice enclosure. And that's where a lot of the DIY projects that are out there are really kind of cool because they
+
+[9:46] find like, you know, you know, like with DIY stuff, there was a, there was a rage, I guess it's still a rage to put everything into an altoids tin, right?
+
+[9:52] Like projects that could fit in an altoids tin. So the miracle, yeah, right? So the miracle is finding the cool box to put everything into. And I forget what it was. There's some acrylic box out there that is readily available that works really well with a bunch of
+
+[10:07] off the shelf parts to make a circulator, but I can't remember what that box was. But, you know, thank God for the internet. Thank you so much, by the way. Yes, I shall go and try that. And if I got electrocuted, you'll know about it. All right, super, thanks for calling in all the way from Australia. So, yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks very much. Oh, wait, we have another color? Three who have been waiting. All right, call her. You are on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? How you doing? Pretty, pretty, pretty good. I'm actually, now that you got a call from Australia. I'm calling from Moscow, believe it or not. Wow, this is awesome. It is great. Moscow, welcome. And hey, great. Actually, native New Yorker living in Moscow, and I have a question for you. I'm redoing my kitchen, and it's basically a simple equipment question. What do you get? What can I, what can I, what should I get in terms of a gas burner so I can, you know, have some, you know, enough BTUs to cook in a walk, for
+
+[11:03] example? Or, you know, and of course, the last question, and I'm sure it's be your favorite is the espresso. I need an espresso machine and what should I get? What's the water like in Moscow? Um, it's pretty bad. I use I'm going to probably be using bottled water. Okay. So, I mean, one of the great joys of having a decent water supply is that you can get a plum
+
+[11:23] espresso machine, which is, I love, instead of having to, like, constantly dump water in the back. I'm assuming you could probably filter or, you know, the problem then with also with certain filtering techniques like reverse osmosis on espresso machines. You really don't want RO water for your espresso because it's too pure. You know, it doesn't have enough minerality in it. So if you're working from bottled. You can retrofit a commercial machine to use bottled. I don't really know what's available in Russia in terms of
+
+[11:49] equipment, but what level of espresso machine are you looking at? classrooms. I'm willing to pay for a little bit here, but I can definitely not do, don't have the space to do like a whole pump setup. Right. I mean, there are lots of, I mean, so the prosumer units. Hello, you still there? Yeah, the prosumer units that are out there, I haven't had a lot of experience with them, I have experience with the smallest commercial
+
+[12:16] units, which are like the single group guys, and they're fairly
+
+[12:20] compact. I don't know if you have the space for them, but I mean, they're good. I only have, I only have mine's from the, you know, the 80s or 90s, 90s, I guess,
+
+[12:30] because, you know, I don't have the money for a new one. They're having had a dual group espresso machine. The single groups aren't as temperature stable. I don't have a lot of experience with the newer, uh, like, for instance, one
+
+[12:42] Keningbur, our uh, listener who's trying to get me to get the Breville one. I don't have experience with that guy yet. I don't know how good it is, but you know, the things are going to be looking for are temperature stability. I mean, you might want to go if you're if you're into, like, tricking stuff out. I don't know whether it's still considered pulling a good shot, but there a lot of people have modified Sylvia's in a very small package,
+
+[13:02] Ranchilias, I'm sure it's been superseded. But the espresso geek community, they've, you know, done a lot of modifications on home machines to get them to pull a really good shot. It's just a little more fidgety than having a pro machine. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I mean, I would do one of those single shot pro machines, you know, like a restaurant style. I might go for that, but then I would need a pump, wouldn't I? Well, a lot of, they have a lot smaller pumps. The company that makes most of the pumps for the machines, you know, here is a company called Procon.
+
+[13:31] And the reason the pumps are so big is because it's the same size pump, uh, it can handle literally gallons per minute, even though you only need to put out like 60 milliliters over the course of 25 seconds or less,
+
+[13:43] really 30 mil. You know what I mean? So, um, so they they throw away a lot of their output, and that's one of the ways that they regulate pressure. Procon knows that the pumps are oversized and so they built a much smaller pump unit. I don't know whether any of those have made it into the newer machines
+
+[13:59] yet because the big pumps are literally way overkill in terms of size. It's unneeded. The other style of pump that's used is a vibrating
+
+[14:10] pump. Most of those are made by a company in Europe called Oka. And those basically, it's a little solenoid track, check, check, check, check, check, check. you can hear them, the vibrating pumps, and they just go back and forth. The problem with those is that it's thought that their pressure isn't as even as the larger rotary
+
+[14:25] pro con pumps. And so some people have a gripe about whether or not it's possible to get the same shot quality with those. I don't have a lot of experience with them. I don't know that the argument that people make that they can't pull as good a shot
+
+[14:36] is good or not, but those pumps are radically smaller. And if you have a problem with a shot of that, what you can do, if they don't already do it, is put something called an accumulator on the backside of the pump, which is basically just a chamber there. You could probably modify a soda bottle or something to do it. And it'll just even out any sort of vibration by having like an air, you know, an air cushion there. Right, right, makes sense. Yeah. And so you could go, you could go that way. As far as, do you have a Chinatown in Moscow? Never been to Moscow. No, no, they do not have a Chinatown in Moscow. That's that's one of the things. I mean, I could probably get, you know, if I if I can get something installed, that would be good. I mean, I do go home quite a bit, so I can always top down to Chinatown in the city. Yeah, I mean, because it's very simple and very cheap here to get a walk burner, you know what I mean? Like a ring, basically just a ring of fire that you hook up to a gas supply. And then all you'd need is an adapter to go to whatever the common gas plumbing is that you have in Russia, and you'd be good to go. But those are so true. Now, you could, I mean, I've never done it. I've never set up a straight up walk burner, but I see them all the time on the streets here in Chinatown. They're just so cheap compared to trying to build that thing yourself because you'd have to bend the, you bend the black pipe into a circle, drill all the holes, tap them, put all the nozzles in, and then get your gas,
+
+[15:56] you know, your gas supply screwed in. It seems like a big hassle, especially if you're going to be home anytime soon, probably easier to get it that way. An adapter can't be that hard to come by. When you're in the States, if you know what kind of piping they have in Russia, I don't. You could get, you could get something, McMaster car here probably sells an adapter, a metric pipe to, you know, a standard US pipe taper, probably not that hard
+
+[16:19] to get stateside and then bring it back again. That would be the way to go, I think. I mean, I mean, if I if I was going to go for something slightly more commercial, like, you know, they had these, you know, the 5 the 5 burner, you know,
+
+[16:30] gas gas tops right now where you can have the walk thing in the middle. Is there any way to maybe just buy one of those and try to jack up the BTUs or is it just, you know, is that just for show? Um... Well, I haven't I'd have to play with one. I mean, the thing about a walk is it uses a preposterously high,
+
+[16:46] you know, number of BTUs per hour. It just dumps energy into the wok, and that's how it works. So a lot of the limitations in a particular burner have to do with how much gas is actually being supplied to
+
+[17:00] it, like how much gas can you supply to it? And then can you combust it efficiently? So you probably have to, um, I mean, you might be able to mess around with it,
+
+[17:10] like, uh, drill the orifice out bigger to get a bigger gas supply, but then you'd need to figure out a way to get enough air to
+
+[17:15] it and make sure that it's combusting uh, efficiently. Otherwise, you're just throwing gas away. You need actual more heat in there. So if you were going, you know what I'm saying? So you, um, I mean, anything's possible to do. I'd have you use regular natural gas there in Russia, right? Yeah, yeah. It's pretty, it's pretty basic. Yeah, I mean, um, you know, you can always up the up the burner side. I mean, the good news is, I guess you don't need it to throttle down very low because you don't care about low heat outputs with a
+
+[17:42] lock. So you can just have it, I think, scream. Uh, yeah, I mean, if you increase the, um, the, I mean, if you increase the orifice, we just got to make sure that you have enough ability to to combust it.
+
+[17:54] If you put too much gas through the smaller burners, you know, you'll just see the flame jumping out, but you'll see you'll have a big unburned area before it goes out and you're just basically pumping gas into the
+
+[18:05] air. Do you know what I mean? Right, no, that won't be good for the kids. No, but what you can do is, if you can see, if you can look up the size of a regular walk burner, You can get one of these things, so it's all nice and finished, rip out the old burner and throw a new one in. Do you know what I'm saying? that has the real kind of, you know, the fortitude that you need. And this kind of stuff I've done all the time, or I've added a couple of extra 20,000 BTU. Like I added a couple extra 20,000 BTU burners in my salamander underneath so that I
+
+[18:32] could have over and underfired salamander one time for a project I was working on. So you can always add more burners with extra knobs on it. And those things will combust great. You know what I'm saying? So like if you have a space that you could drill in and add more heat, as long as you can get it kind of in a basic ring shape, you'd probably be good to go. Yeah, that seems that seems the way to go because then it won't, you know, won't be sitting out on the side or something like that, taking up space. So what, in terms of other equipment, if you had, you had your go to equipment and you were going to, you know, get something new. I'm happy to go esoteric, but you know, what would you do? I mean, I mean, you need a vacuum machine circulator. I'd love to have, uh, if you're, if you have a like, like infinite amount of gas supply, I mean, I've always wanted to have a tandor in my house, be awesome.
+
+[19:16] You know what I mean? I got that at the country house. I was going to put it in the ground there. Yeah. out of the old docha. That's a great thing for out there, putting them in the ground. Yeah, I mean, uh, things, I mean, uh, I have a Paco Jet variant. I mean, I wish I had a real Paco jet. you know, vacuum machine obviously is awesome circulator. You need a... circulating is probably the thing to go for if I was going to go. Yeah, really good blender. Like a Vita Prep. You know, next time you're in the states, bring one back. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. and here's a good question. You know, in terms of buying, because buying equipment is because things are just outrageously expensive here. If I was to buy things, you know, in the city, is there places to go that you know that
+
+[19:54] does, you know, that does 220? I need 220? 220. You can buy direct from Vita Prep and have them drop shipped on 220. Uh, I don't, you know, and also poly-science will direct drop shift you to the states, a 220 unit, and then you could bring it in as a carry uh, back, you know, uh, without having
+
+[20:14] to worry about it. But I don't know of anyone that does direct direct to the customer sell of 220. I mean, you could deal with a JB Prince or something like that, and they could probably special order it from you, but poly-science on a circulator would probably do that and
+
+[20:27] vita prep. I mean, the thing that's killing you is the taxes and the importing. You know what I mean? not the item itself. Vitaprep knows how to make a 220 Vitaprep. You know what I mean? Because I spoke to them about it. And, um, you know, same with polyscience. I mean, their stuff is, you know, it's pretty simple for them. It doesn't cost them more to make a 220 unit. No, they sell them over here, but I mean, in the States, let's say they're 500 and here they're a thousand. Well, over a thousand. Yeah, by its stateside, it shouldn't be that much of a price penalty here, maybe only like 10% instead of 200 or
+
+[20:58] 100%. Hey, Dave, we got a few more callers on the line. Oh, all right. All right, Dave, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Can't wait to try the bar. All right, thanks so much. Right, bye. Hey, color, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Yeah, Dave, I have finally acquired a circulator after putting that off for half of forever, and I'm getting ready to drop a leg of lamb, and at least... Hello? Oops. Hello? Phone is doing very weird thing. That's all right. still got you. Okay. Um, so 1st this up, 1st question. If I'm doing a cashmere type leg of lamb in the circulator, can I put yogurt on it before it goes in the bag or
+
+[21:40] does that go wrong in some impressive way? All right, so you can, um, I have done kind of buttermilk. I haven't done yogurt in the bag. I've done buttermilk. I mean, you're gonna get some, I mean, it's already curdled. So, you know, how's it going to curdle some more, right? I mean, it might break. The sauce might break. But, you know, the main thing that you're going to want to. So when you're adding yogurt to something and I have much more experience, not with lamb, but with chicken, like if you're going to do like a chicken
+
+[22:10] tikka, for instance, you know, the yogurt
+
+[22:15] is the acidity is basically there to tenderize.
+
+[22:18] And so you're looking at kind of a tenderizing effect that they have. And some people love the texture of, and let's go back to buttermilk because I have the most experience with it. Buttermilk, poaching in a bag. The problem with it is, especially on a very, very long cooking
+
+[22:35] time, is that the meat can tend to mushiness, especially because you're not going to overcook it when you're using a water bath. Does this make sense? Yes. Yeah. So you're going to want to guard against mushiness in the meat on long cook times with
+
+[22:53] with acids in the bag. That said, you can have really, really spectacular, very soft meat results that some people really, really like. It's just, it's a question of whether for you personally, it tends to get to the mushy side. All right, and do you have any guidelines on, like, at what point it's likely to really start going south? 24 hours, 48 hours? Yeah, 24, look, on a leg of lamb. Okay, so I mean, the inherent problem with the leg of lamb is that the leg has so many different muscles that all
+
+[23:28] want to be treated differently. So why Lego Lamb is very difficult, um, piece of meat to have it all come together um, at the same time. If you cook a leg of lamb for 24 hours, there will be some muscles in the leg of lamb that are delicious, the ones that have more collagen in them,
+
+[23:45] right? And then more connective tissue in general. And then there are other muscles. ones that in the leg of lamb that are good with a very quick grill, let's say, those ones are going to taste
+
+[23:59] fibery if they're cooked for 24 hours. That said, Sauce can make up for a lot. You know what I mean? And so it's a question of what you're going to try and shoot for it. I mean, look, look, in the end, your result is probably going to be better than what most people can attain anyway, but what you should start doing when you get
+
+[24:19] circulate and you start playing with it like you're doing is really focusing on kind of the minutia of what the textural differences are when you cook a piece of meat that long.
+
+[24:31] If you have the time, which, you know, I don't know whether anyone does. I mean, not now, but ever later. Get like the same piece of meat. Put it in 5 bags and then cook it for cook, you know, cook each one, drop one in, you know, put one in, then, you know, 8 hours later, put another
+
+[24:45] in. And so you can get a feeling for what a couple of hours here or there can do when you're cooking a piece of meat over a long period of time. And it's really worth the experiment to do it. Do you know what I mean? And okay, on a related question, um, very closely related, some portion of the chicken that I get in the Costco
+
+[25:08] multi-pack, right? Turns out to be absolute rubber. A particular piece of the chicken? Yes, I mean, like, you know, um, I don't know if you're a cocko sharper or not,
+
+[25:21] but you know, like, they sell 6, um, 6 vacuum pouches
+
+[25:27] of, of raw chicken breast. And out of a. Each vacuum pouch has 2 baths. you're buying 12 rests and one, you know, in one package. Right. And like, on some random basis, some number of those are like 7 times tougher than others. That's bizarre. And presumably they're all being cooked in a similar fashion, you repeated this
+
+[25:55] enough such that it's not just, like, you know, one guy cooked improperly or something like that. I've had this problem at least 5 or 10 times. It's very odd. Is it substantially different size, the one that's tougher? Uh, they may be bigger. I mean, it's it's one of, um, it's, it's tricky to tell because I usually split them width wise. So, um, like when I'm grilling them hot, I can get the inside and the outside done at the same time. Let me ask you this. Does it taste better? Well, the texture is so funky. You almost don't get to the taste if that makes any sense. Yeah, because when you bite it and it's just wrong. Yeah, because, you know, older birds are radically radically tougher, but I doubt they would sift some older birds in with the regular
+
+[26:41] younger, because it doesn't make economic sense for them to do so, but older birds typically will taste much more like
+
+[26:46] chicken. You know, like I went, you know, if you go abroad to a place that slaughters their chickens much older, they're all much
+
+[26:52] tougher, and so they can be hard for us to eat because we're used to a tender chicken. And yet the flavor of chicken in them is greater. You know what I'm saying? And that's why a lot of old French recipes work lousy with American chickens. Right, exactly. And, you know, why our soups are so bland. You know what I mean, compared to like, because you get a real stewing hen, you know, and you get a lot of flavor out of one of those things,
+
+[27:12] but, you know, they're kind of tough as nails to chew on. But I wonder whether it could be an age thing. I mean, it's possible that it's, I mean, Costco, I'm sure Costco is like, you know, getting regular factory farm chickens and that they're not going to
+
+[27:25] be. There's not a lot of variants, you know? This is the basic, I mean, it's foster farm chicken. Right, right. And, you know, there's probably not a lot of variants in age or, or, and I wonder whether it could be like a pH thing, like a slaughter pH thing.
+
+[27:40] I haven't done enough research on tenderness in chicken versus slaughter stress, for instance. Um, to to know, uh, kind of what happens. I mean, there's a lot of research, obviously, on slaughter, stress and excessively soft, drippy meat for pork, right? But I don't really know of anything on chicken. That's interesting. Hopefully maybe someone's listening that has had this experience and has done some research. I would be very curious if anybody has an opinion, because, I mean, it's, it's, you know, if you put, you think you need 6 best for however many people you're feeding, and then 4 of them come out,
+
+[28:16] just, 2 of them come out really funky. It really just sort of scrambles your plan. Yeah, hopefully someone will call or write in with an explanation because I'm curious. We don't have a Costco here in New York, so I don't I can't go test it myself. That's actually terrible because other than this little problem. They're really nice. And then one more question back to the lamb. Um, I got a little package of TPA, of a TPA from, um, of meat glue
+
+[28:45] from, uh, your friends at, uh, uh, your sponsors,
+
+[28:51] uh, haven't even opened yet. Right. When I do this Leg of Lamb, can I TPA it back into, it's, um, shape after I
+
+[29:03] sear it? So can I see open it up, sear it, and then buy it up a TPA? Sear the inside with meat glue? With translutaminates? Uh, sear the inside. It's interesting. You can. You're not going to get as strong of a bond, right? And the meat isn't going to, unless you put like a lot of force on it with plastic
+
+[29:23] wrapper, a vacuum machine, it's going to be hard to get it to conform properly. Does that make sense? But it can be done. Uh, you know, cooked meat will glue just not as strongly. All right, so I can, I can, I can roll it back up and actually get it to at least sort of stay. Yeah, and remember to tightly seal the meat glue and put it back in the freezer to store it after it's open. Okay, and so I did not notice what I didn't freeze, so that's very helpful. All right. Thank you very, very much. Oh, thank you very much. Thanks for calling in. Bye. All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Mike for Denver, Colorado. Hey, right, doing all right. How you doing? Good. Well, uh, my question is, is kind of twofold. We make a lot of haphazard pickles at home. Kind of like throw cabbage in, sprinkle salt, cabbage, salt. Right. And, uh, you know, I'm curious if there's a bulletproof, because some of these we stick in the back of the fridge and, you know, you figure them out a month later, you taste
+
+[30:24] them. They're a little funky, you know, but, you know, who knows whether it's actually safe? You know, is there a, I've heard of a 5% solution. Generally safe. Uh, you know, and beyond that. You know, if you do a kimchi or something like that, will it actually keep indefinitely? You keep it for a year in there? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, indefinitely is a long time. I mean, these things tend to, um, reach a peak and then can be kept for a long time afterwards without them becoming
+
+[30:58] unsafe. The question is, do they taste as good to you? Do you know what I mean? So basically, you know, what you're trying to do is get the salt
+
+[31:06] level and I don't have it at the at the tip of my tongue because I always just kind of go and look it up when the when the time comes. It's, you know, fairly easy to calculate roughly the salt level that you need based on, for instance, the weight of cabbage that you have,
+
+[31:20] right? And then pack the stuff together, as long as it stays submerged, right? So that you're not exposed to a lot of air, and the salt level is high enough. And then when lacto, lactic acid bacteria start growing in there, you're going to have enough, it's a combination of the acidity and the salt that prevents nasty crap from growing in there over time.
+
+[31:43] And it'll stay basically. Yeah, you could keep it a year. Uh, you know, the question is, is it going to taste as good after that uh, year is up? Now, I like to, rather than having to submerge things, I'll do a lot of backpack, not to do a quick pickle, but a
+
+[31:56] backpack to do something like a kimchi. And then you can see the bags inflate with carbon dioxide. It's great. And then, you know, you don't have to worry about air getting to them ever because they're in a sealed bag. But that's not necessarily viable for home, which is why
+
+[32:09] people tell you to weight the stuff down, or, you know, put a plastic bag with water on top in it to wait, wait, wait the guy down.
+
+[32:16] Um, but, uh, you know, another thing you can do to, if you're having problems with funkiness, I mean, a lot of the issues, it sounds like you're
+
+[32:24] using a, you know, wild, uh, you know, whatever happens to be around your kitchen is what you're inoculating
+
+[32:29] the, um, the product with. So if you were... Well, I like a I like a funky pickle. kind of why I'm curious about it, you know? Funky pickle. like that. But if you universe, but if you want something like that's consistent, then you can just save some of your pickling liquid from your old batch,
+
+[32:46] right? And then after you mix in the salt and stuff, slop in. I mean, so like I have a brand of sauerkraut that I like, right? And so a lot of times I'll cheat because I know I like that brand of sauerkraut. And when I'm working on something, I'll save that sauerkraut juice and I'll dump that in along with the salt to my cabbage to kickstart the, you know, the particular cultures that those guys use because I happen to like it. So if you get a result that you happen to like, then you can backslop it into your next
+
+[33:12] batch and you're guaranteed to get that same kind of a funkiness, assuming
+
+[33:16] that you don't get a contamination, it's a robust enough starter culture so you can get it going. But in other words, same thing that they do with the sourdough you could do with a pickle in terms of starter culture like that. Oh, okay. And are you putting in salt via the raw weight of the cabbage, not the
+
+[33:33] water? Uh, yeah, I mean, like, you know, a lot of the old recipes that you don't even add water to them. You know, they just kind of will, will liquid out over the course of the 1st, you know, day or so and then, and then you can press them. Or, yeah, I mean, you want that when you're calculating salt
+
+[33:48] levels for to prevent microbial spoilage, right? Um, you're calculating on the final weight of total product and then what percentage salt is that, right? Not the percentage of the brine, uh, because, you know, imagine if you had even the most concentrated brine that you could possibly do in the
+
+[34:09] 30s percent, right? And then you were to put that, you know, teaspoon of that into a ton of cabbage. You haven't added any salt, right? So it's always best to calculate salt on weight of total product, water plus cabbage. And that way, you know exactly where you are, and you're never going to go over and you're never going to go under. You know, I like I mean, I like salty stuff. So the stuff that I do is probably always pretty safe. And you can get a feeling if it becomes acidic. Also, remember, the acidity is helping you and you're going to have to have a lower salt requirement, if you're acidity level is high enough. You know, it's a, it's a multiple thing. If there's no acidity, you need a much higher salt concentration. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah. Is there a good reference for that? Uh, ooh, I'm sure I'm sure there is. I don't like again, I don't have it off the off the tip of my tongue, but you know, like any one of the agricultural extensions in the in the universities, they put out a lot of good pickling
+
+[35:06] advice and they'll usually give you both a salt level concentration and a
+
+[35:10] pH concentration that you can deal with. I don't have like a website I can send it to right away, but, you know, it's out there and usually the ag extension guys are very conservative, so you don't have to worry about it.
+
+[35:24] They're not pushing the envelope of what's safe because otherwise they'd be in big, big trouble. And so their information is usually reliable. Cool. I look into it. All right. Thanks so much. All right, thanks a lot. All right. So should we take a break or we have another color? Uh, no, but that's we're almost at the end here. and I have to read this because we read this. Read this. All right. Today's show has been brought to you by the modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per
+
+[35:57] application. Modernist pantry has the solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiasts, and most only cost around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage
+
+[36:08] space, whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something they don't carry, just ask, Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries unflavored popping candy, a.k.a. pop rocks. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show will get a free package of these exploding delights to play with. Simply use the promo code CI74 when placing your order online at modernistpantry.com. Pop rocks. Hey, so can I have a couple minutes, Jack, or we rushing out here? We got like 5 minutes maybe. All right, cool. So I met one of the guys who was on the initial development team of pop rocks at one of the classes I taught. And, you know, Mikey didn't explode. That didn't happen. But the way pop rocks are made is that CO2 is put under very high pressure and molten sugar, the sugar sets. Then they release the pressure, it explodes in the little pop rocks thing. And inside of those frozen, those sugar granules are residual high-pressure CO2.
+
+[37:11] And that's what gives pop rocks. It's thingamajig. And although Mikey didn't explode, he did say that they put a whole load of pop rocks into a truck that developed a leak in
+
+[37:20] transport and it did kind of blow the side out of the truck. Don't know if it's true but that's what he said. All right. So let me rip through the email question so that no one can say that I didn't pay attention to my email people. Um, Elliot Papineau, who we spoke about his knife work, uh, knife sharpening the other day, ordered a walking horse strop, followed our recommendations and bought a strop, see whether it's nice. His drop, Nastasia made out of horse butt. Horse butt. Horse butt. Also got a shout out from Dan Mayne in the
+
+[37:50] UK, who works for Dove Bid, which is a company that I've always seen, but I've never ordered. Makes me more nervous to order off of like a real auction site than it does to order off of eBay, but he sent us some links to a tablet press, which I desperately
+
+[38:03] wanted tablet press. If anyone wants to lend us a tablet press, uh, he can do it, but uh, check out DoveBid for all of
+
+[38:09] your uh, for all of your bio pharma needs, uh, which, again, we have them, which I don't really understand why we all have so many, but we do.
+
+[38:17] Also, Tom Fisher and Lansdowne, PA, said, he really loves what we're doing, and he realized last week we're answering our questions, he loves what we're doing, and that the amount of knowledge we squeezed into a 45 minute show is
+
+[38:28] incredible. Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, and he basically says, um, he's going in the way back machine to last year when Nastasia was against her best judgment, trying to make a pie crust with Crisco. And I said that lard is the only fat to use in such situations. Can lard be used in place of vegetable shortening in any recipe calling for vegetable shortening. Are there certain dishes where vegetable shortening is needed? And is it a one-to-one substitution by weight? The difference in vegetable shortening in lard is that, um, lard is typically a lot softer than vegetable shortening. So it's more difficult to work and you're going to be in certain situations where you need the hardness of a Crisco.
+
+[39:04] Otherwise your product becomes completely unworkable. That's why I tend to work very cold when I work with lard. Also, if you're using natural lard that's rendered out, it has like a liquid and a solid portion. It's much harder to use, but tastes much better than hydrogenated lard. Hydrogenated lard, the one you buy armor in the store, armor brand, hydrogenated lard, is still more plastic than Crisco, more softer rather than Crisco. But much harder than real, honest to God, lard. But yes, one-to-one substitution is best. And lard and biscuits is fantastic. lard in, I've never tried lard in, in a cookie instead of butter, because I use butter in a cookie. But anyway, yes, you can use lard. And referring back to my question last week about extracting fruit juice with a centrifuge. I noticed most brew supply companies sell peptic enzypectic enzymes. Wikipedia seems to be saying that it's used for the same person as Pectinex
+
+[39:57] Ultra SPL breaking down Pectin when making fruit juices. Can this be used in place of, or to complement ultra SPL, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Well, they're similar enzymes, but all the different pectonates enzymes that you can buy have different kinds of activities. And so even Nolosymes, the people who make Pecninex ultra SPL have a range of different ones that have different kind of properties and different kind of activities.
+
+[40:19] We use ultra SPL because that's kind of like the most kind of shotgun one they have. It doesn't just take out pecked in. It takes out hemicellulose and a bunch of other stuff. So any of these enzyme concoctions are kind of multiple enzyme brews that have various effects. And I use that one because it works over a wide range of pH on a wide range of substrates. You might be able to find one in a homebrew that it works really well. I'm not, I'm not sure. You know, you're not barking up the wrong tree. It's just, you know, we have a lot of experience with Pectonex Ultra SPL. And so I tend to go to that one and it's not that expensive for us to use because we buy it in bulk. Make sense? Makes sense? All right. Last, in from Alvin, Alvin, J,
+
+[41:04] Schultz in Houston, who apparently was on Top Chef, something. I saw
+
+[41:09] him. I looked him up, was on Top Chef something. Anyway, thanks for all the info you shared with me via cooking issues. Also, congrats on Booker and Dax. I sent a bartender friend of mine in there this week and he was blown away. I hope to stop by during the international chef conference this year myself. Please do. I have some questions about shopping for my 1st Roto app. Because of my limited funding. I'm stuck with hunting through eBay ads. Anything I should be aware of in eBay auctions for Roto apps. How do I properly clean one that may have been used in a lab? Do road of apps generate leak over time, via warn seals, et cetera. And what is the cost to restore one that may have such problems? I know Dave likes to cold finger style condenser. Does he just run those with a dry ice alcohol mix? I also have liquid nitrogen in my home kitchen. 30 liter nice, huh? Liquid nitrogen in home kitchen. Nice. Would it be better to use that for condensing? How long will a cold finger fill with nitrogen before it lasts before it boils off? And lastly, I see many auctions like this and substitute in some, you know, kind of off-brand rotary
+
+[42:00] evaporator for Rotavap, uh, under a 1000 bucks on eBay. What's to catch with this seemingly Asian manufacturer rotary evaporator? Thanks for your help. Also, I've ordered from your sponsors at modernestpantry.com, and they're great. Extremely fast shipping and nice usable packaging. Just wish they'd give a bigger discount for buying by the pound. All right. Well, I'd stay away from that crappy, uh, you know, uh, Rotov app that's really cheap uh, because I've used even name brand Rotov apps that aren't a good ones in the past and they're leaky and they stink. And if you have a leaky roto app, it's going to be very hard to get a good flavor in it, and yes, they do tend to leak over time in their seals, new rotary
+
+[42:37] seals, it costs about 50 bucks to buy. You just want to get everything clean and make sure that the thing doesn't leak. If the glassware is etched so that it can't form a good seal, like it's scraped too much
+
+[42:46] an etched. You going to have a problem. But most of those problems with leaks can be fixed. But a leaky Roto app is the 1st reason why you're going to lose flavor in a Roto app. I do favor cold finger condenser, but liquid nitrogen gets eaten at a thi rocious rate in a, so every liter that you distill is
+
+[43:03] going to take probably seven, 8 liters of liquid nitrogen in a cold finger condenser. So you're going to be tearing through that 30 liter doer. That said, that's a really good way to do it. Dry ice is going to last you a lot longer. I don't use dry ice because it's hard for me to get dry ice in New York City. I have to take a cab and go to a place and then pick it up and then come back, blah, blah,
+
+[43:21] blah, because I don't own a car, et cetera, et cetera. So if you're in Houston, you own a car, and you have access, I would use dry ice in a cold finger because it's going to last a lot longer. And I would, you can get one on eBay. That's how I got my 1st one. And, um, you can fix most leaks. You want to make sure that nothing nasty went through it. You going to want to clean it with like, you know, alkanox or some really hardcore glass detergent, bleach the hell out of it, even though it's probably more of
+
+[43:47] a, just a poison in it than a bio, biohazard. probably going to be more poison issue, but just clean the ever loving hell out of that son of a gun because I don't want you to be sucking in a bunch of carbon
+
+[43:57] tetral chloride or crazy poison stuff. Poison cooking issues. Fish and vodka. Oh, you did that. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on heritageradionetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[44:23] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter, up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Vicious, vicious, vodka. Oh, you dirty rap. Got me
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
+
+[0:25] anytime anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a 1st
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+[0:31] stepfather. Talk space made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talk space works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 co-pay, no insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your 1st month with promo code space 80 when you go to
+
+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com.
+
+[1:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Your Shoes. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:30] Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Answering all of your cooking related questions, technical or not. Call your questions in two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. As usual, join in the studio here with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you? Nice. That's really nice. Nice, nice. That's just because she beat you. Yeah. I was like, Mark, we do have time to shave the back of your neck. Oh, that's what's happening now. Now you all know something about Mark Ladder. All right, now, uh, also, uh, Howdy Jack and the rest. You like that? We got a quote like that last week, but I want everyone to know that was it 2 days ago on Sunday? Nastasia, the Hammer, had dinner with none other than Dr. Ruth. right? I found out that she is an excellent sniper. You mean like like eBay sniping or killing people? killing people. Yeah? So it's like all about the good sex and if the sex isn't good, take you out from long range without you knowing? learned in the orphanage in Switzerland. Wait, what? Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait. You gotta talk more about this. First of all, she's 90 years old, folks, right? Yeah. And then her parents were, you know, died in the concentration camp. She was taken to an orphanage in Switzerland and then for some reason she learned how to be a sniper. After the war or during the war? during the war. Wow. Yeah. So like that little smile means that she will she will shoot you straight between the damned eyes. Wow. I had no, is this not, is this commonly known, Dr. Ruth's information? No, I don't know how it came up. Well, with Nastasia in the house. You know, murder and sniping is going to come up eventually. That's crazy stuff Wow. That's impressive. That certainly overshadows what I did this weekend. I went to the Sean Casey animal shelter in Brooklyn because we were looking to get a pet. Wow. Well, Booker wanted a cat, of course, but we can't have cats because, you know, my sister-in-law is deadly allergic to
+
+[3:28] them, and Jen doesn't want a dog. Oh, so you're getting an iguana. No, but the snakes, I mean, what are you going to do with a snake? I was like, hey kids, you got to feed this snake whole defrosted mice. You have to purchase packages of like frozen whole mice that are, they're frozen in kind of a suppository shape so that
+
+[3:48] the snakes can just swallow those suckers without choking. You thaw them out, you thaw out this dead mouse. You throw it in the cage. I thought you were supposed to give them a live one. Well, I mean, I guess you could, but it's probably safer for the snake and kind of less traumatic for the kids if you throw in a
+
+[4:00] frozen anyway, whatever. I want a bird now Now the things I want a bird. You know, they have £20 turtles there. £20 tortoise. Yeah, they won't give you the tortoise. because they don't want to encourage people to own tortoises. This is a rescue only. Anyway. Okay. Questions coming in. Hi, thanks for the brilliant show. I don't know about that, but thank you for enjoying it. It's informative and hilarious in the absolute high point of my week. I've recently become chef of a medium-sized fine dining restaurant in Bergen. Uh, and I can't pronounce it, soot and salt. But this isn't Bergen County, New Jersey. This is Bergen, Norway. Yeah, yeah, very cool. Nothing wrong with Bergen County. Well, Stasi's got her jersey face on now. Actually, I'm going to go to Jersey next weekend, rock and mineral show. The young one wants to go to a rock and mineral show in Jersey. Do you know that New Jersey is one of the mineral capitals of the world? Yeah, I went there as a kid, too. awesome. Yeah, right? It's cool, right? It's really cool. Yeah. See? See? Minerals. Okay. Where was I? Oh, yes. Somehow I got somehow I got drawn off track. Can you believe that, Nastasia? Am I started my iPad? Okay. We normally cook our fish wrapped in cling film. There's plastic wrap for all you guys out there. In the rationale combi oven with a fairly high Delta T, meaning, if you don't know what we're talking about, it means that he's trying to cook it to a particular temperature, let's
+
+[5:20] say in the, in the, like 50 or somewhere Celsius in the middle or below. And then using a much higher temperature, like 60 or something Celsius, to cook it in, which is actually a standard way of cooking. But in low temperature, we talk about delta Ts. We're talking about very specific differences in temperature between the cooking medium and what we're cooking. anyway. Okay, with a fairly high delta T, usually 65 degrees centigrade, for a core temperature of 39 to 42, which is, I don't know what that is, but it's something like a
+
+[5:49] 100 and, see, 42 is something like 103 or something like that. It's Fahrenheit. It's very low, very low. This is on the very, very low scale of cooking. In fact, most a lot of people wouldn't call it cooking, we call it warming. like a lot of debate and contention about whether or not this is, I like it. But like this hyper low temperature fit. Anyway, let me get finish with the question. This yields a delicious fish in about 5 to 7 minutes, but also a grossly overcooked and ugly exterior. And what I'm assuming is happening as the outside is overcooked because 65 degrees is high. And secondly, when you're cooking low temp in these temperature ranges, right, where you're not getting any
+
+[6:27] seared or any sort of browning on the outside, you get white proteins that come out of basically solution or drawn out and coagulate and look like little specks of almost egg white on the surface of the fish.
+
+[6:38] And they look gross. Anyway, um, okay. So last night during service, we tried steaming the fish, but not really steaming. Steaming's a misnomer, you had it in the combi oven with 100% humidity, at 45 degrees centigrade, to a core temperature of 42 centigrade, and it was awesome, stunning.
+
+[6:54] The taste was almost raw, and the texture was almost flaky and completely transparent. It took, uh, we cooked it almost 45 minutes. So my problem is, is this safe? I always say to my customers that all the fish and seafood we serve are unpasteurized and are raw, but is the additional 45 minutes in the danger zone okay? We use very fresh fish, usually in rigor, we dry salt it for 20 minutes beforehand. And thanks, and please say hi to the guys out in Blue Hillstone Barn. So, hello, Blue Hillstone Barnes from Eric and Bergen, Norway. Okay. So my also, he sent a follow-up email and he said 45 minutes was not the time you had to get the fish to the core temperature. It was an experiment to see if we could drop the fish in the combi as soon as we got the order in from a customer, presumably it's a tasting plate, so it comes in early. Uh, right? And if it would still be good after that amount of time. I now think it will be better to drop the fish when we have sent all the moves to the table. That would probably bring the cooking time down to 20 or 30 minutes. We have a vacuum machine, vacuum packer, circulators. And so that's an option instead of putting heating in the combi oven. Is he transferred much quicker in a vacuum bag than a combi, we feel cooking fish in a bag is good, but the look in texture suffers ever so
+
+[7:59] slightly, because their machine is small, and they use an analog, pressure meter, et cetera, et cetera. So they can never be very accurate with how much vacuum. It was also additional work. Okay, look. Let's knock these out in reverse order. One, I don't feel you have a need to vacuum the fish in a vacuum bag unless you are, I mean, most of us don't have a combi oven, right? And so vacuum fish in a bag is the only way or ziplocing a fish in a bag really is the only way we can do low temperature work with
+
+[8:27] fish, right? If you have a combi oven or if you have a, uh, uh, man, the war just went right out of my head. If you have a combi oven or if you have a CVAP, you can do low temperature without it. And in many ways, it's superior because a bag does a couple things. One, it tends to deform the portion slightly, right? Unless you're very good at vacing it or you put a lot of oil into it. And two, if you suck a vacuum on fish and cook under a vacuum, I find that a texture is affected. One of the things we do in a low temperature sous vide class that I teach is, we serve a variety of the same fish at a variety of different vacuum levels cooked. And everyone, everyone can tell the difference in the higher fact fish. And also, no one really likes. Usually the super higher-vact fish. And
+
+[9:13] also, even some of the medium vac ones are weird. Ziplocs are usually pretty damn good because they don't have any sort of vacuum effect, but they allow you to cook low temperature and go on cooking issues,
+
+[9:22] which, yes, yes, I know I haven't written for it in a long time. And you'll see step-by-step instructions on how to put fish in a Ziploc bag. But it is more work. The other advantage of vacuum is you can infuse flavors if you do it, but you're not going to hold these fish for a long time. Secondly, if you're telling people this stuff is raw and unpasteurized,
+
+[9:42] yeah, that's good, that's a good 1st step. I would not cook these things at that temperature for 45 minutes because you're incubating bacteria at that temperature. I think your 20 minute window is a lot safer, a lot, lot safer. Also 45 minutes. It might not be a problem with Ling. I don't have a lot of experience with Ling. But some of your fatty, fattier fishes will have enzymes in
+
+[10:09] them that continue to break the fish down over time. And so a 45 minute fish will get mushy, even if it doesn't get microbially spoiled, it will get mushy. I don't know specifically that when you put when you put a piece of fish into the danger zone, the bacteria doesn't start growing immediately, there's a lag time before the bacteria start
+
+[10:28] growing. And then it goes into a log rate where it's growing, you know, ferocious rates.
+
+[10:32] But the problem is, I don't know exactly how long it's going to take to get into the log rate of cooking, but your zone is right in the log area of
+
+[10:39] growth, where it's going to grow at a ferocious rate. Then you have the problem that it goes out and you don't know how fast it was it was being served. I would feel completely comfortable with a fish that you tell people is basically raw, uncooked,
+
+[10:51] unpasteurized, et cetera. with a 20 minute, with a 10 to 20 minute cook time and out, if they were going to eat it right
+
+[10:56] away, and you never had the opportunity of trying to rechill it again and serve it, if anything happened. That I'd feel comfortable with. 45 minutes, I start to feel a little bit uncomfortable. I mean, you know, again, you're probably not going to do anything, but who knows? Also, certain fish can develop at these low temperatures, histamines. I don't know which ones they are, but this is what Brunugusso tells me. I never done the research because I kind of was looking at him cross-eyed when he was telling me because he just hates this texture of fish. I mean, the real problem is, is that also is at these super low temperatures people, if you've never had these things, right? Like this super, super low temperature fish that we're talking about was one of the reasons why a lot of chefs in America, like why they
+
+[11:32] Dufrain, my brother-in-law got into sous vide and low temperature in the 1st place was to get these hyper low textures of
+
+[11:37] fish. They look amazing. They look like, like, almost like, uh, like candy, like jelly, like, like, sometimes, like, almost like a,
+
+[11:46] like a vacuum infused watermelon, like, like, if it's like something like a, like a salmon, they look amazing. Like, uh, and the texture is, uh, we usually describe it as kind of fudgy and dense. There's a particular temperature window right around there where the intense fishiness of raw fish goes
+
+[12:01] away and yet it doesn't have the texture of cooked fish and it's awesome. I really like it. A good 50% of the customers here in New York don't like that texture. And so a lot of people have kind of moved away from that kind of cooking here in the
+
+[12:14] States, but yet it is a virtuoso thing to do. Did I actually, did I answer the question? I can't even remember. I did? And we just got an email from Matthew Leaf that says, hey, Nastasia, the way I remember it is that Dr. Ruth became a sniper for Israel after the war.
+
+[12:28] Oh, after the war of the war. Nice. I'm still trying to imagine this, like, what I've always known as kind of a sweet older woman, sniping people. Yes. You know, like a little gun to the head sniping issue thing. Anyway. All right, so you want to go to her 1st commercial break and come back? Sure. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break. Call your questions too. 718-4972128. 718-4972128 cooking issues.
+
+[13:53] And welcome back to Cooking Issues. Jack, what was that? That is Faila Cootie, Zombie. Zombie. Are you gonna like, are you gonna like put that in with like cranberry zombie, like like opposite zombie? Zombie opposites. So, you know, speaking of zombie, my son is obsessed with this game zombie highway. you played that game? That sounds awesome though. Yeah, yeah. He was he was, uh, yeah. anyway, I won't get into it. Okay. Today show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds
+
+[14:24] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application. Do you hate that nostasia? I do. Yeah. Modern's pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast and most costs only around 5 bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at Modern's pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries propylene, glycol, alginate, PGA for short. Which is derived from brown algae. What's basically it's derived from algae. anyway. From brown algae and can be used to stabilize emulsions and thicken liquids, is particularly useful in creating, what the heck are you opening over there? It's like a sound effects thing. She like holds her zipper pocket right next to the microphone and goes. It is crazy. Anyway. Where was I? Stabilize emulsions and thicken liquids. It is particularly useful in creating a clean and creamy mouth feel and beverages. That's a gross thing to say, right? Yeah, it gross. Yeah. Nastachi is giving her clean and creamy look. Fans of cooking issues in place in order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of PGA to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 75. when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. All right. So, PGA is one of the only PGA is one of the only ingredients that we
+
+[15:52] use, along with methyl cell methyl cellulose that is not
+
+[15:57] natural, that we personally, I mean, use. And it's derived from Algernate. And it's used as a thickener and especially in beverages. It's been phased out recently because of label declaration problems because people want to say all natural and it's not. And the 2nd reason is it's expensive, but it is a fantastic and unlike Algernate. It does not have a problem with acidity. Color. You are on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Mark calling from Toronto, Canada. How you doing? Great. I'm a big fan of your show. We listen to it all the time, and 2 good friends of mine are on their honeymoon. at your show right now, so big ups to Ann and Adam. I do have a question for you. Probably those people right there. What do they look like? Um, they're, you know, average height. Adam's got a bit of a pot belly. Wow. I wonder whether I wonder whether they're eating this. But he has a full head of hair, right? He's got a full head of hair. They're waving. Yeah. We're waving too low. awesome. You know what? You know what? Is Andy Jesus here, Jack? Can we get anything Jesus to serve him? I haven't seen him. He might have today off. It's awful. mysteriously missing. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, look for him. All right. so your question. My question is, so I'm interested in trying to do some freeze drying at home in my freezer. And I built a couple sous vide machines, so I understand about the temperature controllers. I'm wondering if I can use a pressure controller to sort of put a pressure vessel in my freezer with whatever food I want to freeze dry, and then sort of decrease the
+
+[17:18] pressure, as the temperature goes down, trying to follow the, you know, the triple point line of the
+
+[17:21] water phase. Okay, so your your main problem. I mean, 1st of all, do you have access to liquid nitrogen
+
+[17:31] and or dry ice? Uh, dry ice. Okay. Uh, yeah, you're gonna need to, I mean, in general, in a freeze dryer, they're gonna, they'll
+
+[17:40] actually sometimes heat, heat the sample, right? I mean, what you're going to need to do is get, first, do you have a really good vacuum source? Yeah, I've got a pretty good vacuum pump. Yeah. Like a commercial. I can get a commercial vacuum pump. Like, what, but you know, I haven't looked it up recently, but, you know, it's basically the vacuum pumps that I use are commercial refrigeration vacuum pumps, and they only get down to about, I'd say,
+
+[18:08] for, you know, 3 or 4 millibar in that range, and you're going to need to get substantially
+
+[18:13] better. You're going to need to get better than that to get a really good result out of it. You need to get quite low and you're going to have to ensure that you're cold trap, right, that can, um, you know, basically what, you know, for those
+
+[18:27] you don't know, freeze drying, what you do is you freeze something typically. Then you place it in a vessel, you suck a vacuum on it, and in between that
+
+[18:35] and the vacuum, you put a cold trap, and the liquids that are frozen solid. solids, frozen in the thing, sublimate, turn to a gas, migrate to the cold trap where they're frozen in the cold trap, and you maintain a vacuum until the majority of the liquid that's in the product, or what would be a liquid in the
+
+[18:52] product, has sublimated and migrated over to the coal trap. That's the theory of operation of it. But typically you need to get a fairly cold, um, cold trap. So dry ice is fine. Anything I think below about -60 Celsius, I think, is okay. But colder is typically better. But you're going to need to keep it cold the whole time. I would, if you can, I mean, if you can, I would use your vacuum pump to also
+
+[19:17] vacuum insulate the cold trap on the outside. It's going to stop your heat loss and prolong the life of your
+
+[19:24] uh, coolant of your um, dry ice. The other thing is, yeah, the temperature control and I guess a freezer would work. Your main problem is going to be getting the vacuum right and making sure your cold trap stays cold. I've never had luck. Let's put it that way. And the, uh, I tried it in the Roto app, basically using the Roto app as a kind of a a cheap, uh, way to freeze dry with my refrigeration vacuum pump, but
+
+[19:49] again, that only got down. Even I tweaked it all the way out and it only got, it got down to maybe like two, 3 millibar, and still I did not get any luck. But I encourage you to try and tell me what happens. Okay, will do. I'll keep experimenting and post something on the blog if anything works. Please do. Please do. Thanks for calling it. My pleasure. All right. Okay. Wait, we have a follow-up. I just, oh, wait, wait. So we have a question in. There you go. Other order. Here we go. Uh, from, uh, Aaron Call. Hey, cooking, she's teen, great show, I started listening a couple months ago, I'm getting caught up with all the back shows. I recently decided to do a DIY. Let's do it yourself. Circulator and just got it finished last weekend. I started with the Seattle food geek and oh, my pudding plans, which I don't know those particular ones, but I'm sure they're well-known plans on the internets, but they made a few changes.
+
+[20:36] What I think are improvements. So that leads my question. First, the fish tank pump I started with died around 55 degrees Celsius. I am now using a $15 high temperature pump that only moves one liter per
+
+[20:46] minute, roughly 16 gallons per hour. Using several probes. It seems to be acceptable in a small bath with one bag. Do you think this is enough movement or can you recommend a faster, high temperature pump that won't break the bank? Okay, that I do not think that's enough. Look, any minor circulation is going to be enough for one bag and a pot because you just need to get the thing moving. The problem is if you put the heater into a bigger unit, and then you have a lot of bags in it. You're going to have you're going to have issues with dead spots. So a high pump, high, you know, a higher flow pump is going to be better typically. The one the last time I did one. I used a pump that was recommended on the brewers forms. I forget what it is, but it wasn't that expensive for recirculated mash pumps, rims method. And those pumps handle water quite
+
+[21:35] well, and I believe can go up into the mid 60s or better Celsius. So you might want to check out the brewers forums for recirculated mash pump setups and they all have cheap ones. I just can't remember off the top of my head. It's also readily available. The pump I remember from sources like Granger or eBay. Okay, second. Uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Second about safety. I know this is a topic you've addressed before, but I wonder if you could quickly run through some safety tips. I'm using Ziploc bags under what circumstances and how critical is getting every last bit of air out. This is tough with ground meat. Is there an absolute minimum temperature to which you'd cook grocery store, beef chicken, hole or ground? Can I add anything to the bag to adjust pH or oxygen to help? Anything else? Thanks, uh, Aaron call. Okay, look. And I'll hit the follow-up when I wrote in. Okay. Uh, I'll do the follow-up backwards. So the deal is, is with safety, you don't need to get all of the air out of the bag. You know, the reason to get all, you're not trying to do preservation for a long time. You're trying to cook, right? So getting the air out isn't as big a deal. That said, you can get some oxidation if there's an excess amount of air, especially on something like a creme anglaise. you're cooking a creme anglaise, you want to get the air out because I've noticed you get more of kind of an eggy sulfur taste if you don't. That's why even though I cook a lot of meats in Ziploc bags at home, I really do prefer vacuuming for something like a creme anglaise when you're cooking it. ground meat, you don't want to get all the air out. If you did, it would be, you know, like a puck. It would be like a sausage. You wouldn't want that. So you want to keep, you know, you want to keep it not, not dense and crush down. Um, so the minimum temperature I would cook, uh, Depends what you mean by minimum. The minimum temperature that I typically recommend for people to cook at is about 54.4 Celsius. Uh, because that's the minimum temperature for beef on the uh, on the food, you know, the FSIS USDA website. So that's the lowest temperature that I usually recommend. There are people that recommend lower. I typically will cook at 50 like steak. I will typically, and even ground meat, if you cook it long enough, you have to cook it long enough because you put a lot of bacteria into the inside of the meat when you grind it, but 55 for steak, and usually for a hamburger, I'll do like
+
+[23:43] 50, 6, if I want like a rarish, medium rarish kind of thing. Cook it through. Then if you wanted to maintain rare all the way through, drop the temperature to 50 degrees Celsius for about 30 minutes to
+
+[23:55] cool it, cool it down, then sear the hell out of it to get a crust on it. If you want the burger to have more of a standard taste, then don't chill it before you cook it and you'll be fine. But that's typically what I do. And as the follow-up, I took copious notes and decent photos through the process of making the circulator, you mentioned you have a close relationship to the
+
+[24:12] polyscience guys. So I don't know whether you'd be interested, but I'd happy to write it up and send it to you to use as a blog post, another resource or even just for your amusement or a
+
+[24:20] critique. It's surely no thing of beauty, but I think an improvement of the other plans that already exist on the internet with greater detail in the construction steps. Let me know if it's worth my time to draft and I'll send it your way. Why don't you send some of the photos to Stas. She' look at it. She's a rough critic. You're the roughest critic in the world. She hates 90% of the stuff I do. And she hangs out on the weekend with snipers. Right? Okay. Paul writes in with a comment on last week's show, where I forget who it was, called in and said he had problems with his chickens being tough. Every like 5th chicken breast was being tough from the Costco. Uh, and he says, virtually all broilers, uh, nine, all 9000000000 of them that are slaughtered in the US, 9 billion. Jesus. Uh, in the U.S. are slaughtered at essentially the same age, 40 to 45 days. So tough chicken is likely not an age effect. I agree. But the question is, what is the effect then? Has anyone else noticed the one in 5 tough breast problem at Costco? Have you noticed that? No. There is a Costco in the Bronx. In Harlem. Really? How do you know this? I passed it. On the train? If you go on the Metro North, you can see Target and Costco. The funny thing is it's actually easier for me to fly to Europe than it is for me to go to, you know, above, yeah, it's crazy. For those of you that don't know New York, like we think we're hot snots here. But, I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, but I mean, yeah, you know what I'm talking about. And but the thing is, is that we're so provincial, we hardly ever leave within like 10 blocks or 20 blocks of where we
+
+[25:45] live. like, 0 my god, uptown. I have to go uptown. You know, coming out to Brooklyn here, basically, I feel like I'm an adventurer, an
+
+[25:54] explorer, because I live in Manhattan. And people in Brooklyn, I guess, sometimes feel the same way. They're like, oh man, I got to go into the city. I got to go to Manhattan. Jesus. Anyway, weird. What do you think, Jack? Yeah, that's exactly how I feel when I have to go to the city. Yeah. See? But notice they call it the city. Yeah, booyah. Okay. And a question from Paul. Over the last month, Dave has mentioned 2 preferred knife sharpening tools, Duo sharp and Edge Pro. Can you comment on the need to have both, or is one preferred, and which one? The, um, okay, so the Edge Pro is a sharpening systems, it's based on fixing the angle between the knife blade and
+
+[26:30] the, uh, sharpening tool. So basically you have, on the Edge Pro, you hold the knife by the handle with the blade facing towards you, and there's a stick on it that you rub back and forth over the surface to the knife, and that sticks maintained at a very, you know, precise angle. So you can get both sides
+
+[26:45] the knife, and you don't have to think, you don't have to look, and you can sharpen a 1000000000 knives in like 13 seconds.
+
+[26:51] Once you set it up. It takes like five, 6 minutes to set it up. Once you set it up, you can sharpen all your knives very quickly to the same edge angle. It's extremely repeatable. So if you want to, if you know you want a particular edge angle on something, you can just rip them all through, right? Now, it's not very effective, if you only need to do one or 2 knives, or if you need to constantly change your
+
+[27:09] angles, or if all of your knives are at different edge angles, because then, you know, you're having to reset it each time and all this other stuff.
+
+[27:15] I do like it for multiple, multiple things, and it gets things unbelievably sharp,
+
+[27:22] okay? And it has a wide range of grits on it, and you can replace the grits, and the, you know, the things stay true and they don't gouge out. The, um, the duo sharp is basically just a hand, a large, the one that I use is a large hand diamond whetstone, right?
+
+[27:37] And what I, you know, it requires you to have a, you know, like
+
+[27:41] traditionally sharpening your knives, it requires you to use your senses, your hands, your eyes, and your, you know, your finger when you're, when you're, you know, feeling for the burr
+
+[27:50] edge, to determine whether you've gotten the angle correct, on the sharpening, and, you know, when you're done, et cetera, et cetera. They have a grit on both sides. What I like about the duo sharp is it's extremely thin. It's fairly light, and it will never warp, and you'll never gouge it out because it's
+
+[28:06] diamonds. So like a lot of the Japanese water stones have problems where they get gouged and they have to be retrued over time. That said, like I say, most like high end chefs, they still adhere to their, you know, their Japanese water
+
+[28:18] stones and they would probably scoff at, you know, my duo sharp that I have around.
+
+[28:23] But when I use it, my knives are freaking sharp and I get the people who are like, all right, that's freaking sharp. And Nils, who is a water stone man for many years. tried mine when I was away once and was like, all right, I'm getting one of these suckers because you know what? It's easy to fit in my bag. I don't have to freaking soak it in water. It doesn't make a mess all over my knives the way that the water stones do. And I don't have to retrue it ever. Done, done, done, done and done. Right? Hey, look, if you don't like it, call up and blame me and tell me I'm a jerk wad. But make sure you get the really, really, the green and red one. Don't get one of the coarser ones. is not going to be it's not going to be happy for you. Okay. So, uh, I have a, uh, should we do one more quick commercial break there, Jack, what do you think? Yes. Commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[29:34] Don't bring that shit to me. Don't bring bullshit to Africa. Get up. Don't bring that shit to me. Don't blame Dashi and Bushi to Africa? Exactly what he was saying. This is a Japanese food hater from Africa. What was that? Well, I had to just, you know, it was a quick commercial break called by you, so I did just click on something. But what the heck was that? That was Sean Cootie. I'm guessing Fala Cootie's son. And the whole premise of this is I do not want to see a Japanese store in Africa.
+
+[30:12] And furthermore, I do not want to see any sort of
+
+[30:19] crappy, Japanese, African fusion, cuisine with your dashi-based stuff in
+
+[30:27] my, in my, in my food, basically. That's crazy, crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. Stas, you would like that. Stas does not like combo. You like Dashi, though. As long as it's got the Kacho Bushi in it. But don't bring Bushi to that guy. Don't do it Don't do it. Don't do it. He like, you know, he's not pleased with it. Okay, wow. I can't even think about anything else. My whole life's outlook is like changed. I did not realize they were such a Katsuobushi hating crowd out there. With, you know, yeah, weird. Okay. Hey, Nastasia, just you. I love what you and Dave. I love what you and Dave do. Mostly you, Nastasia. They know I read. They know you read. the emails. Oh, I see. I mean, she can also read. She has that capability. Anyway, I have 2 questions. Okay, listen, I'm going to answer the 1st question or really I'm going to postpone because I really don't know the answer to the 1st question. And the 2nd one, I'm going to do your question along with someone else's question because it's one of those rare instances where I've gotten very similar questions
+
+[31:31] in the same week. Okay. One, where does the term 86 come from? So those of you that don't know what we're talking about, usually there's a number of things. You can say someone is 86, which means they're no longer welcome, right? in a restaurant or a place, or you could say an item is 86, and that means we're out of it and stop serving it, right? So, you know, when last night when we ran out of the peach. By the way, listen to this at the bar, Booker and Dax, we have a peach dish on the menu, a peach drink. I don't want to hear about it about how it's not peach season. Let me tell you something. It's never freaking peach season in New York, right? I mean, like we grow peaches here. Remember when we had those really good ones? Were they from New York? No, they were from this. Remember, we bought them in Harlem, but they were trucked up from like down south somewhere, like Maryland or some
+
+[32:13] crap. And he's known for that, right? New York is not like, look, I have the book Peaches in New York. So I'm fully aware of the history of peach growing in New York State, okay? But it's, you know, look, we just, it's not our finest point. But the fact of the matter is, right, that peaches, when they are in season, don't last very long. And so you have a boatload of peaches lying around. So the question is, you can either make a traditional peach brandy with it, which is delicious, right? Uh, or you can make uh, peach jam, or you can make canned peaches, which nastasia happens to find, incredibly delicious. Do you not? Love them so much. You like a canned peach, right? Yeah, in fact, Nastasia likes a canned peach, not as a substitute for a fresh peach, but rather as its own thing. Correct? Right. So Nastasia said, hey, look, you know, it's winter timeout. Why don't we make canned peaches a drink and put it on the menu? So we made canned peach juice, right? And then Karen Jarmin, one of our bartenders, made a delicious tequila mezcal, umaboshi vinegar, canned peach drink, which, you know, is clarified in the
+
+[33:19] centrifuge list. But people are like, oh my god, it's not seasonal. It totally is seasonal. It's absolutely seasonal. Peaches are always in season. Well, no. Canned peaches are not in season in the height of summer. You should be saving them for other times. Okay. Well they're always in season for me. Yes. Anyway, my point is, it's okay to use it as long as you use it for the right reasons.
+
+[33:39] That made that up as weird. Oh, that reminds me, but I know I'm not going to have time, but I have to go through it anyway. I was walking here to the radio show. I looked on the street and there was an empty kind of crush box of hot pockets on the street, hot pockets. You familiar with hot pockets? Yeah. Now, my kids, I don't know what the hell it is. My kids, like, go to the store, they look in the thing and they want the freaking hot pockets. And the thing is, is that the only television they ever watch is stream through Netflix or Hulu. So they've never seen the commercial where they're like, hot pockets. Now, I know that like hot pockets is like a, you know, that
+
+[34:12] that tune, like, I almost want to buy it, you know, and the word hot pocket, like, has that awesome, like,
+
+[34:18] alliteration hot pocket. You know what I mean? It's like, and if they hired like Snoop Dogg to just get on the air and go like, hot puck, it's hot puck. hot pockets. I would buy it. Like, if you just said it like 5 times in a row, I would do nothing but buy hot pockets. You know what I mean? But how the hell do my kids know this? What kind of evil marketing genius do they have that can make a kid look at a box of freaking hot pockets and
+
+[34:39] say, daddy, buy me those damn things? What was the sound effect? I like that. What was that? Actually, yeah, for those who don't know the hot pocket song. Oh, do it. When you want to have me without a big deal. What are you gonna pick? Hot pockets In a home function, show up for lunch. What are you gonna pick? High pocket. Hot pockets, filled with delicious pepperoni pizza, chicken and cheddar. Ham and cheese in a crispy pocket. It's not crispy usually. Hot pocket. The hot meal? You know what I'm gonna do? and buy me some hot pockets. Don't do that. No, I'm not, but the thing is, how would my kids know that? They've never seen that. I mean, that commercial's a sale jack. Come on now. pretty good. It's pretty damn good. Anyway. Hot pockets. Okay, maybe we need to make modernist pantry commercial like that. Yeah. Oh man. All right. So the 2nd oh, oh, so 86. I't know how the hell he got this. Okay, so 86. Anyway, the point is, is that when you're 86 something, it's gone or you have to get rid of the person, et cetera, et cetera. Now, it's like many terms of this nature, there's no
+
+[35:46] accepted, there's no accepted derivation of it. The etymologies are kind of all BS, and they're all based on like at a very tenuous reasoning. Some people say that, you know, Delmonico's, the restaurant, had an item, number 86 that was always out. Some people have said it comes from a streetcar where the 86th street was the last stop. Some people have said it comes from, you know, the crew on a ship. They only had 85 and so the 86 person wasn't there, et cetera, et cetera. Supposedly there was a law about alcohol service that was, you know, article
+
+[36:21] 86 that no one's ever seen the article or printed it, et cetera. There's a table that only had 85 seats and 86, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, these all seem to be pretty much to be horse hockey. The other good one is Chumley's, which is a famous speakeasy in New
+
+[36:37] York, or was speakeasy, is number 86 on its street, and so they would throw people out and they'd see the 86 sign. Go to snopes.com for, you know, basically a good rundown of all this, but all this stuff seems kind of nonsense.
+
+[36:48] The Snopes writer, I believe it's a woman. I forget who it is. I couldn't copy it because they have an anti- copyright. They won't let me right click and paste. But her main thesis is probably it's a rhyming slang, 86 for Knicks. You know what I mean? Nix it, nix something, nix it, 86. Anyway, but there's also a whole host of I didn't have a chance to find my copy, but Darcy O'Neill's fix the pumps. has a lot of old soda slang jargon in it, and that, you know, and also probably old diner slang. And that's one of those old terms. So he might go into the etymology and he's good with that kind of a thing. The book fixed the pumps, by the way, is an old slang term for check out the woman with the large breasts. Basically fix the pumps. That's what the slang is for. Anyway, so what do you think? That answer that question. Basically, I don't think there is an answer. The 2nd question is quite interesting, is two, when it comes to soaking livers, may it be monkfish, duck, chicken, or even
+
+[37:46] beef? What difference does it make to soak it in water? Carbonated water or milk? What works best? The carbonated water, actually. and this is from Felipe. Carbonated water I'd never heard of, but it's interesting. I didn't notice in the 1890s, there was reference if a bird was gamey, or if parts of things were gamey, to wipe it with soda water. But my presumption, when they say soda water, isn't carbonated water, but water with baking soda in it, or, you know, and so, you know, cooking soda in it.
+
+[38:19] And that seems to me to make more sense because then they say to pack it with charcoal to get rid of the bad odors,
+
+[38:25] right? Because you're gonna cook that damn thing. You're not going to throw it away back in the 1890s Boston cooking school book. So I'm wondering whether that carbonated water is actually a modern thing that has some sort of scientific
+
+[38:35] merit or whether it's a misread of soda water from a much older technique of deodorizing
+
+[38:41] a, you know, a gamy bird. The other thing, whether it's going to be water or milk and what works best, I'm going to combine in with a question we have on
+
+[38:52] sweetbreads from Adam Lazarik. I was hoping you could give your opinion on soaking sweetbreads, livers, and other offal, mainly touching on using milk or not. If milk, what's exactly, why exactly is it used and are there other alternatives? Is there a time maybe you could touch on your preferred cooking technique for cooking sweetbreads, i.e. in court bouillon, sous vide, or
+
+[39:10] not to press, or not, peel before, or after, and so on? I've always soaked in milk, poached and then pressed, but never really questioned why to press and soak in milk. Okay. So I'm going to handle those 2 things at once. Here's the deal. Most of the cooking techniques for awful involve getting, it's a horrible word, right? but even like all of the alternatives they use for awful are also awful. like variety meats. Variety, sounds terrible, right? Anyway, a lot of these techniques are made to either get rid of residual blood in
+
+[39:41] them because there's, you know, they're usually typically they're not, they're not muscle. And so a lot of times you want to get rid of the blood, like in sweetbreads, so that the color is good. So soaking helps with that. Or to get rid of the off flavors that develop because these things spoil relatively quickly compared to muscle
+
+[40:00] meats and tend to have a higher bacterial contamination at the beginning, right? And they also tend to have a lot of fat that tends to break down more than the fat in
+
+[40:08] regular whole muscle cuts. And so you have, you know, fat oxidation, you have microbial spoilage, and you have a lot of other things that cause these things to kind of be
+
+[40:16] stinky and you need a little special tender loving carrot before they're cooked. And that's a lot of times what the soak is doing. Also, if you're going to poach something, you know, they'll typically say put it in cold and bring it up when you're poaching it. And that's also to draw stuff out. McGee mentions this, that, you know, you start cold and bring it up so that you can, um, so that basically you're drawing soluble proteins out, and then once they're drawn out, cold, then they coagulate on the surface and you can skim off that undesirable scum that floats on the top of the blanching pot when you're doing poaching of awful
+
+[40:48] sweetbreads and things like this. Now, milk is very interesting because a lot of these, a lot of these cuts can develop off flavors due to fat breakdown, rancidity and
+
+[41:00] um, basically just, you know, the breakdown, free fatty acids, things like this. And they have a lot of lipid based off flavors in them. If you soak in milk, milk is going to be better. This is, by the way, just the thought of my head, but I believe it to be true. But this is not based in like scientific research, which is what I'm telling you. And someone can come back and tell me I'm a jerk or an idiot, which I'm sure they will. Uh, uh, like milk is good because it's water, but it has a fat in it. So I'm thinking skim milk probably wouldn't be as good for this, right? And it would suck out the, um, it would suck out some of the fat-based off flavors, right? Better than water alone would. That's my guess. What do you think about that, guess, Nastasia? That's a good guess. Yeah, good guess, good guess. Anyway. So the soaking is is to draw out things that are soluble, that are not bound, that can be taken off. Salt is going to flavor it. It's also going to um, probably help it out texturally. If you use salt water. Salt and milk might be a good alternative. And I think that's what's going on. And then you never keep the milk, you discard it because it apparently is sucking up all the evil, all the evil humor, right? And so that is my guess for that. As for, um, are there any other like partially fatty things that you could use like that? I mean, I bet you could make a soaking thing that wasn't milk if you were allergic to milk. You could like emulsify some fat into something with an emulsifier and then add it to it. You think that might work. Like tickleloid 310 S, use that to make like a, an olive oil, water emulsion or use an ultrasonic homogenizer to make a milk out of like, you know, you could do it.
+
+[42:35] I mean, you could make a non-milk-based alternative. If the question is that you can't use milk. I tend to do, I don't know why, but I tend to do the old school with sweetbreads. I will soak them in salt water, poach them in milk, press them, and then fry them. But I don't know why. I like a crispy sweetbread, by the way. I don't too sous videed or any of that stuff on it. I should. I have the instructions for it. or the temperatures for it on the blog in the cooking charge. But typically I do it the old school way because I like a crunchy sweetbread, right? And not a mushy one. You like a mushy, sweet bread or crunchy? Crunchy. Yeah. And I press it so it stays together. I put salt water in the soak so that it tastes good and draws out the extra blood and
+
+[43:20] whatnot and I use milk because I don't know why. I just do it. You know what I mean? Uh, right? I mean, no better. Oh, by the way, if you like sweetbreads, but you don't like
+
+[43:31] bovine sponge of form encephalopathy, a.k.a. Madcow, or if you're worried about it. I don't know if people are still worried about that nowadays. Or if you're worried about any sort of TSE, trans- uh, transmissible, transmissible, sponge of form encephalopathy, which is degenerative uh, drain disorder, uh, brain disorder, uh, related to
+
+[43:47] yacht disquisial, very similar, 100% fatal, uh, takes a long time. Anyway, if you're worried about that, you can make something a very passable fake sweetbread using chicken skins. You just roll up, you sprinkle chicken skins with salt and meat glue, roll them into a roulade, let them set, poach them off, cut them into
+
+[44:05] pinwheels, and deep fry them, and they are very similar to sweetbreads, and delicious, I might add. Very delicious. Dave, I hate to do this, but it's time. Oh man, I can't get the one last one. We gotta get the next caller on the line for the next show. All right, listen, Lee Cowman, I have your question on hearts on how to cook hearts, and I will tell
+
+[44:24] them, I will tell you my answers on it next week, and it involves an article called Studies on the Development of Tenderized Chicken
+
+[44:30] Gizzard and Goat Heart Pickles.
+
+[44:38] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[44:54] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. all twisted. And I just can't get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage
+
+[0:07] Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every
+
+[0:31] Tuesday from approximately 12 to 1225. Today, Jack, we are coming exactly 12. 12 on the dot, which does not happen. Unfortunately, we are not joined in the studio today with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. She is taking my place at the Buke Trade Show in Florida, Orlando, Orlando, Orlando. Yeah. So she's uh, she's down there, uh, roto vapping um, scotch in uh, in a rotary evaporator, and then taking the leftover oak and uh, making ice cream with it, and I'm assuming taking the, uh, the, you know, the clear scotch, the, uh, we call it, you know, gray dog, the one that's
+
+[1:10] been, uh, had the oak taken out of it in the roto app. she's just drinking that to drown her sorrows, right? I mean, she's not a hey, no offense to Florida. She's not an Orlando fan. Let me put it that way. She's not happy to be taking my place in Orlando. But eventually today in the audience, in the studio, rather. We going to have Tony Cagliaro. And since nobody can pronounce his name, which I think means rabbit keeper in Italian,
+
+[1:34] uh, they just call him Tony C. But Tony C, it runs, you know, one of my absolute most
+
+[1:41] favorite bars in the whole world, 69 Colebrook Row, in London, Fantastic Bar. He has, you know, a laboratory as well, where he does a lot of really high, you know, cutting edge work in cocktails and was one of the cocktail bars where I 1st experienced, you know, the fact that you could use very high-end, uh, very high-end stuff
+
+[2:03] in a very comfortable, wonderful atmosphere. And so Tony should be here in a minute, but he is as many guests have been trapped somewhere in Brooklyn and does not know how to get to Roberta. It happens, man. It does. It does. He left, like, he was in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, headed here, started like half hour ago, and it's not yet made it. Amazing. Anyway, calling all your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[2:34] It's kind of sad not having Nastasia here, right? Yeah, I can do my best. I can, you know make some faces and stuff. I know, but I can hardly see your face. Somebody needs to sit across from you with that table and make faces. Preferably someone like Nastasia, who has like a peculiar knack for getting me angry. Right. Yeah. All right. Anyway, while we're waiting for questions to come in, we have a question from, oh, this is last week's question that we didn't get
+
+[2:58] to from Lee Cowman. And by the way, my kids ran my battery dry on my iPad. So I'm actually doing this this show via my iPhone, and in case you didn't know, I'm getting a little old, so it's hard for me to read these tiny, tiny letters.
+
+[3:12] Anyway, hey guys, love the show. Got my hands on 3 fresh lamb hearts. Well, since this question's from last week, I doubt the lamb hearts are fresh anymore. You know what I mean, Jack? I trimmed the 1st one in the medallions and simply grilled it with salt and pepper. It was delicious. The 2nd I also trimmed the medallions and cooked it low temperature for 56 Celsius, at 56 Celsius,
+
+[3:30] rather, for 3 hours, and also had, it was delicious, but it had a very similar texture to the 1st attempt. wondering how I might get it a bit more tender on the 3rd heart, perhaps another hour or 2 of cooking. Or since it's relatively lean cut, is there nothing really to break down, what would you do? Well, Lee, I love heart. I haven't done a lot of work with low temperature cooking on heart, but, you know, the way that you did it first, which is, you know, really grilled quickly with like a char on the
+
+[3:56] outside, where it remains chewy on the inside, is, to me, my favorite on almost any kind of heart.
+
+[4:02] you know, like chicken hearts. There's nothing quite like a grilled chicken heart. Like if I could grow chickens, it just had hearts and skin. I would do that. I mean, I love chicken meat, but chicken hearts and chicken skins are incredible. But I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's relatively not only is it relatively lean, but I believe, and I did some research into it. I believe most of the, you know, muscle, heart muscle isn't necessarily connective tissue, like it would be in something like a gizzard or something like that, which gets very soft with prolonged cooking.
+
+[4:30] Heart is mainly just really strong muscle. And so I don't know that it's going to break down the same way
+
+[4:38] as, you know, a cut with a lot of collagen and it would with prolonged cooking. I'm not saying it won't. I mean, you know, you could try a couple of days and see, because actually, it would work. If you cooked it for a long, long time at work, you know, because you can tell, even with very lean cuts, they get tender if they're cooked for a long time, but it's not really a pleasing tenderness, it's more of a mushiness. So I don't know if you're going to be able to get, um, I don't know if you're going to be able to get exactly what you're looking at
+
+[5:05] with that, but I did find an article called uh, studies on development of tenderized chicken gizzard and goat
+
+[5:13] heart pickles. This is in 2009. It's A.K. Mighty is the author. It an awesome name, Mighty. Anyway, they're studying traditional Indian heart and gizzard pickles. And they did something very smart. They slice it relatively thin. They jakarted the meat somewhat to get penetration, and then they brined it in a meat tenderizer. They were using a variety of natural tenderizers. For instance, ginger. Uh, apparently has some tenderizing agents and enzyme insid tenderizing. They're also using the late, not figs themselves, but the latex from a papaya, from fig plant, or tree, and a
+
+[5:52] weird, bitter gourd extract that you can't get here in the
+
+[5:57] US to try it out. And they had very good luck tenderizing it that way. So you could try, you could try that. And then I read some other articles online, although I haven't done it using baking soda, actually, as a tenderizer. Presumably the lie, the alkaline nature, breaks down the protein structure somewhat, and causes it to bind less strongly to each other and makes it more tender.
+
+[6:19] Uh, but that uh, but now I want to try these pickled, these pickled goat harts. When you when you just chow down on a on a jar of pickled goat heart shack? I would, yeah. I mean, I'd never considered that before. Why don't you get Patrick to order us up some goat hearts? I mean, I have the procedure right here. I mean, it's it's pretty dang simple. They give you the whole thing. October was goat season for him, but I don't know if he's getting more. Yeah, but it's a goat heart season. Yeah right. If he pickled them, we should be able to have them, you know, all year, all year long. Also, another way to tenderize meat that you might not want to do is ionizing radiation at high sterilizing doses of high, high, high sterilizing
+
+[7:00] radiating doses cause changes in meat proteins resulted in increased tenderness, and God knows what else. Actually, I shouldn't say that's stupid. But like, for many years, people were against the irradiation of fruits, vegetables and meats because they thought somehow the, the,
+
+[7:16] the food was going to glow in the dark. And so there's a whole group of people that are anti-radiated foods. To me, the only real argument against irradiating foods is if
+
+[7:25] the if the actual radiation source is unsafe to the workers, unsafe to the environment, which I don't know if they are or not,
+
+[7:32] and B, does the crap taste good or not, you know? And, um, So that's how they did that glow in the dark sushi? No, no, no, that's like, I don't really know. I research that once for a very short amount of time. a bioluminescent protein. I mean, the one that like you see Ferran eating the popsicle and his tongue is glowing. Yeah, that's a bioluminescent protein. When you when you irradiate food, I mean, there's not. I mean, all the studies that I've read, and they're all old because they were trying to use basically the byproducts of all sorts of awful tests and things that they were
+
+[8:00] doing. But, you know, basically there's no residual radiation left in the food, but one of the issues is, you'll get textural degradation of the
+
+[8:08] food over time as it's irradiated. It's the same problem that some people have with very, very high pressure, high hydrostatic pressure,
+
+[8:15] sterilization, things like oysters. They say that there's textural changes. And it usually means that you've broken the stuff down somewhat, so this can either be seen as a positive or a negative. I mean, one person's tenderness is another person's mushiness. Me personally, I like meat. I like to taste the muscle, the fiber structure. I like it to be tender, but I like the structure to be intact. When that structure starts getting broken down, such as something that is naturally kind of chewy, becomes tender. To me, to me, that's mush. If all you're doing is breaking down collagen and the collagen breaks down, but the muscle fibers are still intact, that's tender to me. Um, so to me, it's a it's a fine line. Anyway, we've got a caller. Oh, caller. You are on the air. I have a big fan of the show and what you guys are doing. I have a science question and a recipe question for you. Uh, science question is, uh, so my father is diabetic and tries to treat exclusive lute diet. Uh, says foregone dessert, but uh, was thinking of trying to do uh, meringues for him. And you've talked a lot about how the importance of sugar, not just as a sweetener, but as a structural component. And I was curious if you have thoughts on uh, meringues with uh, without sugar and just the sugar alcohols. I know Ruth for tall has gotten a lot of press, um, if you have thoughts on that dimension. Well, that's interesting. I haven't specifically done it. I mean, the one we always keep around is isomalt. And I'm trying to think if I've ever made a meringue with ice. I guarantee you a meringue with isomalt would work. It just won't be as sweet. Do you know what I mean? So you'd have to, um, uh, I don't have a lot of experience uh, doing one-to-one sugar replacements, i.e. trying to keep stuff sweet. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, I have much more experience trying to get the textural properties of sugar without the sweetness. So I'll use things like glucose, um, uh, syrups and uh, or if I want something harder that's going to have a lot more of a geling property. I use isomalt. So, which is the one you mentioned, I forget. Arithritol? And does it have similar sweetness properties to sugar? It does. It's a sugar alcohol that the body doesn't break down and it doesn't have a lot of the nasty gut properties that a lot of other sugar alcohols have. Yeah, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, sugar alcohols are generally undigestable, and so they add to what you would consider your bulk fiber content, so they can cause, what's a
+
+[10:45] nice flatulence. And runniness, whatnot. Is that a polite way of putting it, you think? I think that was delicate, yes. Yeah. So, uh, so if it has similar sweetness properties, I mean, the great thing about isomalt, aside from the fact that it's not sweet, which is what I like, is that it's, uh, it doesn't pull a lot of moisture out of the air.
+
+[11:05] And so it maintains its structure for a long time. Um, and I don't know. The properties of the other sugar alcohols, but it, I mean, look, I know isomalt
+
+[11:15] works. So I'm sure the other sugar alcohol is assuming that they don't pull too much water out of the air and turn to a soupy
+
+[11:20] mess would work as well. You know what I mean? Oh great. Okay, I'll start experimenting. Can you do me a favor and send us a note and tell us how it worked out for you. I certainly will. So a recipe question if you don't mind. So I'm among the legion throngs that have decided to hack together our own immersion circulators, and it's been really fun to play with. I had fun trying to do head-to-head recipe comparisons where you start with very similar base ingredients is to show off the effects to skeptical
+
+[11:46] friends. Uh, chicken worked well, did a buttermilk marinated chicken and uh, either a high heat roast or a slow cook with a flash fry. And that was a lot of fun to sort of compare and contrast the different effects, how the marinade took,
+
+[11:59] et cetera. I was curious if you have other suggestions of, uh, you know, recipes or ingredients where you can do, uh, a really nice comparison that scientific, you start with the same ingredients, uh, and show off the power
+
+[12:13] of, uh, slow cooking. I mean, strictly speaking slow cook versus normal cook. Uh, slow cook versus normal cook or just the fun that you can do with low temp food? I mean, the cheapest and easiest thing to do, and it's not, I mean, it depends. impressive if you haven't done it before for someone. Obviously, it's eggs, you know, showing showing someone an egg at 63 versus 64. People are like, oh, I get it. That's pretty awesome. Um, Steaks are, are, are a good one to show kind of equal done, equal doneeness all the way through. Obviously, here's one that's interesting. It's not better or worse, but like a very, like a slow cook on a short rib. Some people prefer most, you know, like if you tell someone that it's, um, if you tell someone that it's the same thing as a
+
+[13:01] braised short rib, then generally they like the braised short rib better. If you just tell them here's like a really cool cut of meat. In general, people really like the long cooked things like short ribs because they have an intense meaty flavor, and they cut they cut tender like a steak. So a short rib that's cooked for 24 hours at, let's say,
+
+[13:16] 50 at like 57 to 60 C. have the texture of a skirt steak, which is pretty amazing for people. Do you know what I mean? Or cooked for 24 to 36 hours is going to have more of a tender steak texture. People kind of like that as a comparison. And it's interesting to compare that side by side with the traditional braise because they're totally different. Not better, not worse, different. Yeah, but give those a shot. All right. Thanks a lot. Keep it. Thank you. Tony C. Tony the rabbit man. Tony Cunigaro is in the studio. Hello. How you doing? I'm good. How are you? Had trouble getting here, huh? Yeah. Yeah. All right, so I described you a little bit to the audience as, I don't know what I said. I said, Fantastic Bartender, Drinks Factory Lab, 69
+
+[14:07] Coldwood Grow. the name of the hotel bar again? Uh, Zesta townhouse. Yeah, yeah. Apparently also awesome. Bastard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so anyway, so we actually had a question in, uh, for, you know, you and I to talk about cocktails. And then after that, I think we'll go to a commercial break and bang out some stuff. Hold on a second. Nastasia, who's not here today because she's in Florida. I tweeted it out yesterday, so we got any good question for you. Okay. Uh, this is from uh, Kevin, for us. Hope you and Dave are doing well. I've really been enjoying the last few shows. I just saw you have Tony C on today. So I had some cocktail questions to send your way. What are your thoughts on the binary interactions of taste combinations? I've read a few papers that essentially say that sodium in both sodium chloride and
+
+[14:56] MSG, suppress bitterness, sugar, and acid, and wait, suppress bitterness, and sugar and acid cancel each other out, et cetera. Do you have any methodical approaches to adding small amounts of flavors to find the perfect balance or do you have a standard ratio you apply? How do you know how much salt to add to a cocktail? Huh. That's a perfect question for you, Tony. Yeah. Let me just... bounce that round my head for a few seconds. Um, I think at the end of the day you can read papers and you can you can look at lots of sheep. It's how it works in your mouth and you've got to keep trying and trying. I mean, when we're kind of making cocktails and we're kind of working on stuff. You know, we, it's almost like an artist has a blank canvas until you've kind of put something on that canvas, then you don't know what else is going to happen on there.
+
+[15:46] So we kind of guesstimate sometimes off some of the, you know, kind of literature we
+
+[15:53] read and then kind of work it up and down until we get the perfect formula. That kind of can involve like making a drink or, you know, a mix, um, you know, up to 30, 40 times until we've got that exact kind of resonance that we want in our mouths.
+
+[16:10] and that we think will work once we give it to a larger audience.
+
+[16:14] So I think a lot of these kind of papers just, they use them as vague guidelines. I don't think you can ever say that will work universally until you've actually kind of
+
+[16:23] tried how it reacts with all the other ingredients. Right. I mean, I'm sure you have like a go-to starting point. For those of you that don't know, Tony, like if you walk into his, I don't know if they, he still does this, but if you walk in when they're actually doing testing, uh, they'll have uh, various, and Tony is uh, is, I mean, putting words in his
+
+[16:41] mouth, right here, he can talk for himself, but uh, big proponent of um, sub-threshold, uh, you know, modifiers like salt and
+
+[16:50] other other flavors like that that you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out. In fact, he doesn't want you to pick them out, but they're there to kind of round and punch flavors up and down. And I remember one time I visited his bar. And they were working with, I forget what the particular ingredient was, but they were the eventual cocktail is going to have a fairly small amount. And so they were trying to figure out what their mix was going to be. Uh, you know, that was gonna, I guess, I don't know whether you work out of bitters bottles or what, but they were using a micro pipetter to basically make a bunch of iterations with very small differences in particular components that would
+
+[17:22] then, and they're not going to pull out a micro pipetter at the bar, but it's to help them figure out what their base is going to be to work with when they're actually behind the bar.
+
+[17:31] So is that something you still do? Yeah, I mean, I think that experiment there was something that ended up in the dry martini that we did, which was to make a dry martini
+
+[17:41] dryer. And rather than it kind of being a flavor, it was an effect, which was using kind of condensed tannins that we got from grape seed.
+
+[17:51] So we kind of macerated them and then rotivated them off. they were very, very concentrated. And you could have like, you know, 10 microns per
+
+[18:00] liter of a move. Sorry. per litres of a move that would have an effect even when you put it in a drink. And we use micro pipettas for that. And, you know, we kind of started fairly high. I mean, we started around 50 and even adding 50 microns to a bottle of
+
+[18:19] vermouth and then making a martini with it, dried, you know, pucking your mouth up so much that it didn't
+
+[18:24] work. So we kind of, you know, again, it's trying and then seeing where these things would go. Because, you know, sometimes these papers are kind of, you know,
+
+[18:33] uh, uh, it's pre-made chemicals and whatever else that you buy from laboratories. The difference with that, I suppose, kind of what we do, we're kind of a bit more fast and
+
+[18:44] loose and as far as we're making these ingredients ourselves. So, you know, we can't test the amount of kind of tannins in something by ourselves. So the register is basically in our mouths, which I think it always should be anyway. I mean, that's the most important instrument. Yeah, it's the most accurate anyway. Yeah, and it's what we're mixing for. We're mixing for the mouth, not for the HPLC machine. Yeah exactly. Well, the mouth and the nose, I guess, and the eyes. But we're mixing for the human being. For the human being. Yeah. You don't recommend that one. What? Clever instrument that one. Exactly. yeah pretty good. Sometimes. Works sometimes. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I know at the bar, one thing we tend to add, I mean, look, obviously we have go to ratios of acids. We all have our own favorite basic sour ratio in our head that we can move up or down on depending on what the mood, you know, what mood strikes us or what the, you know, the additions we have to it
+
+[19:38] are. And I also, I personally have a basic salt. You know, at the bar, we have a, our standard salt solution is 20 grams of salt in 100 milliliters of
+
+[19:49] water, does all of it put it into standard kind of American, not, you know, not imperial drops, but a standard American
+
+[19:56] eyedroppers. And, uh, and you know, uh, depending on the drink, uh, you know, most citrus drinks get
+
+[20:03] a drop or two, depending on how much we want. Like, for me, a daiquiri is a one drop drink, usually, and most of our tequila drinks are 2 drop drinks, because people like a little bit more of an edge on their tequila drinks. So I mean, I think there's, you know, once you start incorporating something like salt into your, um, into the routine of bartending.
+
+[20:25] Um, you're going to find kind of go to uh, go to ratios that you like. And then Tony takes it another step further because, you know, every time I've worked with him, he really enjoys
+
+[20:37] fine tuning. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's definitely something we do just because it's, you know, being able to replicate these things over and over again, that I think is important because there's nothing worse, I suppose, than going to a cocktail bar and having, you know, the same drink that you really love, but it comes out in different variations each
+
+[20:57] time. So we try and narrow that band down as much as possible by using some of the
+
+[21:01] micro preparedas and equipment like that. just because it makes it, you know, super accurate and using kind of super accurate scales and things like that. Yeah, Tony, by the way, for those of you that haven't had a chance to go to 69 Cobra Grow,
+
+[21:14] he's the master of busting all this equipment out behind the scenes, but when you show up at the bar, it's like, you know, a tranny band and a honky tonk piano.
+
+[21:24] And so there's like, there is no, um, at least the, you know, 3 times or what that I've been to London and hung out, basically, exclusively a
+
+[21:32] 6 night clobal grow. Uh, is, uh, you know, you you wouldn't, um, know from being there that you're dealing with someone who is taking such precise care of their drinks until you taste the cocktails, which are fantastic.
+
+[21:50] And so it was one of the 1st places where I really, uh, saw in practice that you can have, uh, you know, a real palace of to the cocktail, but in a completely friendly atmosphere, which is, you know, something that hasn't really been replicated too
+
+[22:07] often. I think that was, you know, it was always a consideration and always something that we wanted to do because I
+
+[22:12] think, I mean, you kind of have the bartenders talking about, you know, the science of it. It can be pretty boring. You know, you know, the atmosphere needs to be conducive to, you know, I want to talk to you. Let's have a conversation. Or, you know, there's there's the distraction. You kind of go there to get distracted. You know, if there's, yeah, there's obviously people that want to know more and that's, you know, that's open as well. But our focus is to run a bar that is enjoyable and is fun and has, you know,
+
+[22:39] it's about hosting. It's about bartending. It's not about kind of geeking out. I mean, a booker and Dax, which is, you know, the bar that, you know, I'm running now. Um, with Tristan. The, you know, I think we really fell into that trap early on, even though I knew I didn't want to fall into that trap.
+
+[22:58] A lot of the tech, you know, the techniques were so new to the crew that they were just excited
+
+[23:03] about it. I think there was a little, there was quite a bit, at the beginning, too much talk, maybe, to the customers, about
+
+[23:10] it, and we really kind of, I think, trying to ratchet that back, because it's really just about the
+
+[23:14] dream. But what you do as well is a lot fun. I mean, kind of watching you last night in the excellent bar that you went. was the, you know, it's fun to watch you kind of do, I think, because that's a point of interest. I think, you know, some of the things we do aren't that interesting. Like micropipetas aren't interesting to watch, but watching you, but watching you kind of carbonate stuff and, you know, use the liquid nitrogen and all of those things is a visual, exciting thing to actually, to watch. I think that brings a whole heap of stuff to, you know, to the table. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question. I just want to make sure, you know, you want to make sure that nothing that you're using is a gimmick and that it doesn't become, which I
+
+[23:53] thought, I don't think we do. Like, so for instance, you know, with Booker and Dax, we're very low on garnish. You know what I mean? Kind of at this point specifically. It's not that I can't make a bunch of crazy garnishes. It's just, you know. Just talk of Pringles last night. Oh my god, that's great garnish. I hope that makes it in the bodega week. Our Pringle our Pringle garnish. And of course, you know, Brits don't know what a Pringle is, so we had to go through a long explanation of what a Pringle is to
+
+[24:18] Tony Pringles. You know, Pringles are kind of a miracle. Pringles was like one of the biggest R&D development budgets on a food product of all time. And it took like 20 years to pay back. And Pringles finally started making money, like 20 years after they did it because of the amazing, like investment in potato chip molds that they made for the Pringles and the can development and all
+
+[24:38] that. Crazy, crazy stuff. All right. So another cocktail question from Kevin. Let's take a quick break. Oh, quick break. Oh, all right. We're going to a quick miracle break. Call back, 718, 497, 2128. Cookie issues. Speak pimping, baby. Big, pepper, spinach.
+
+[25:08] You know why, love them, love them, meet them, 'cause I don't need them. Take 'em on the hook. Keep them looking good, but I don't beat them. First time they fuss, I'm breathing. Talking about what's the reason? I'm a vivin every sense of the word. Better trust and believe them. And the cut where I keep them, till I need it, till I need to be the gust in
+
+[25:31] it, beep, and I'm picking them up, gonna play with the truck. Beanie chicks wanna put, chicken, fish and cough. Divorce, I'm gonna split his bucks just because you got good. I'm a break brass so you can be living it up. Get up, pause with nothing, y'all be fronting me, give my mind to a woman. Not for nothing. Never happen. I'll be forever macking. I cold in a fashion. I got no passion. I got no patience and I hate waiting. choke in the desktop, ah, ah, ah, ah. Check them out now. Let's ride, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Check her out now. Yeah, we doing. Big pimping. We be Costco sized pimping up in NYC, baby. I wonder what Jay-Z thinks of Dashi. I'm sure he doesn't want Dashi. Mantashi or Bushi. That was like the best song. we might have to play that thing again Love that stuff. Okay, today's show is sponsored by Modernist Pantries. Supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of
+
+[26:34] supplies, but only a few grams are needed for application. Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around 5 bucks. Saving you time, money, and storage space, whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it in modernest pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world, monitor's pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries pure coat, B790, a modified cornstarch that can be used to create films, glasses, and fruit leathers,
+
+[27:08] glasses. Glasses. Uh, not that kind of glass, Tony. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of pure coat to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 76 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernestpantry.com today for all of your modernest cooking needs. I've never used, um, I've used crisp coat, but I've never used pure code. Crisp coat is like a batter coding. These things like these film formers, they use for things when you're frying. They form a film so that Greece theoretically can't penetrate and they also help with batter adhesion. And, you know, things like this you usually use in like, uh, so like in flour, you use like a 10% by weight to fry things. I haven't used it in a long time because my fry coating is good enough. I don't need any crisp coat or puke coating. I'm just kidding. I just kidding. It all good stuff. Especially if you're going to do something like, um, Oh, like
+
+[28:03] tempura stuff, but this stuff sounds like it's not actually used for for that. It's used more to do to cast like glasses and fruits and sheets of starch. I'm sure it's great stuff. I just don't have that much experience with it. Okay. Second cocktail question is on Jelann ice cubes. Um, I'm trying to find out. Okay. I know that you've made gel on ice cubes before. I'm intrigued by the concept of a non-melting ice cube, especially if it could be better heat retention than a standard ice. Plus, it'd be cool to have an edible cocktail within a cocktail. My question is, have you had any success getting the jail end to stay clear when frozen? Maybe a different hydrocolid combination would work. No, it will not stay clear. It just won't stay clear. I have no try that, actually. Yeah, it won't stay. I've worked with Medicellulos before. Yeah, we made like absinthe ice cubes and put them on spoon and then lit them and then they
+
+[28:51] melt melted. After they cool. Yeah, yeah. But and they clear when they're when they melt, but they're when they're solid, they're white. Yeah, especially with absinthe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Joe, here's the thing. When you use any sort of hydro for like to lock in water that's frozen for cooling, you're never going to get quite the
+
+[29:13] cooling patent. you'll get theoretically the cooling power, but what happens is when you're chilling with ice, the outside layer of the ice melts, that water instantly goes into your
+
+[29:22] cocktail, chills and dilutes. When you've locked the water into a hydrocolloid, uh, you haven't, uh, uh, believe it or not, water is a better insulator than ice. So you inhibit the chilling effect of the ice, it's on the inside of the cube as it goes. So it will keep a drink cool, but it's never going to be as effective as ice. Ice is a damn effective chilling agent. What I did do recently, because they're quite small. I have to go on Ellen, the Ellen have to. I'm going to be on Ellen DeGeneres. later this week for her St. Patty's Day cocktail, and they didn't want any of the drinks that we actually had on our menu, I don't think. I guess, I don't know, not a fan. I don't know. But they, uh, so there's all these uh, kind of, I'm doing a bunch of wacky stuff. So if you watch, it's not stuff that you'd actually see at the bar. But one of the things I'm doing is breaking apart raspberries with liquid nitrogen and then using the raspberry beads that, as basically, uh, ice cube BBs, to shake a drink,
+
+[30:23] the chill a drink, it's already been diluted, and it shows it down, and then, you know, you get the raspberries, and you drink it with a straw, and you suck them up like, you know, in your mouth, it's
+
+[30:30] like, Like that pretty much. So stuff like that. So you can shake with frozen fruit. one of my favorite techniques. Is that what with limes as well? I don't know. Probably. Little lime pips? Yeah. Grapefruit works. I haven't tried lime because the lime, the vesicles are so small. Uh, I mean, you know, one of my favorite, it's just not going to give you a cocktail within a cocktail, but one of my favorite things to do, especially at home, if you don't have a lot of gear is uh,
+
+[30:54] is when you're using non- uh, non-concentrated mixers like grapefruit juice or apple juice. Freeze them solid, like ice cubes, and then shake them instead of with ice because they break into a slush because, you know, juice doesn't freeze as
+
+[31:09] hard. So they break into a slush in the tins and then and it gets really freaking cold and your dilution's always right because you just shake it till the whole son of a bitch turns to a slush.
+
+[31:18] You know what I mean? Numbing. Yep. Okay. So, let me see. Now I got to try and split between, just like Tony and I having a conversation and some of these
+
+[31:30] questions because you guys have a lot of questions in. Let me go. Uh, let me see. Oh, here's a, here's a, here's a good one. Okay. Stephen Garrett from Wellington, New Zealand. You ever been to New Zealand? I've not yet. I love to go. Yeah? Because you're a Xena Warrior Princess fan? Lords of Rings, I think. Lord of the Rings. See, I'm, like, Lord of the Rings, like, I never really, I saw like one or 2 of them, but, you know,
+
+[31:55] I, like, you know, Zena, like, hit me right at the right time. like, you know, Zena. There's a question that you missed last week about hearts and cooking. I'd love to hear a little about tartare of heart. You ever had heart tartare? I have never actually had it. But I'm sure it's good. I mean, one of the problems with Oregon meats is they have to be really fresh because the way that they're processed and cut out, they tend to spoil quickly because they're exposed to more bacteria than whole muscle cuts,
+
+[32:16] right? I mean, that's just a kind of a fact of life. Hearts probably are okay because they are a big hole muscle cut. You just wash off the outside or whatever, trim it. I've never actually had heart tartare, but I did look up basically most of the recipes I found online. Trace back to a friend of mine, Chris Constantino, who is known for his cooking of, you know, awful, meaning awful, not
+
+[32:37] awful, you know, awful. There you go. Uh, and he has a beef, heart, uh, tartare, Putanesca style. That means torn up hearts in the style of horrors. Right? Yeah, it's kind of that translation. Yeah, it's not far off. Yeah. Horse style, heart, heart chop. Anyway. kind of see where you're going with it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So, yeah, he has a recipe. very easy to find and it looks interesting, but I've not had it. I sure it's good, kind of chewy. meat. Are you a meat tartare kind of a guy, Tony? Oh, I can be. Although I've not had that, but I've kind of partial to... Yeah, right? little acid, a little, you know, he has some interesting stuff. And so just look up, you know, look up his thing. Also, following up on the soda stream, the carbonate alcohol, soda stream. I't know if they have that UK, so to speak. It's the home carbonator. You know, I've recommended for a while adding an extra tube to it. So the tube can dip down low enough so that you can get it into alcohol and carbonate it without getting foam
+
+[33:32] over, basically. So following up on the snowstream to carbonate alcohol, it works, extending the tube to the bottom of the bottle, but it uses a lot of gas. To make wine sparkle, we have to carbonate, vent, carbonate, vent, and carbonate and let it sit pressurized for a good few minutes, and it has to be almost ice cold.
+
+[33:47] Everything you said is true. But that's the only damned way to carbonate something properly. is, uh, you know, if you come to the bar and you see as carbonate, We're, we'll carbonate 4 or 5, you know, between 3 and 5 times on any of our drinks, um, just to get rid of all of the little nucleation sites that are in it so that we get a nice stable
+
+[34:06] bubble and we have it more than ice cold. In fact, one of the big things I have to beat out of the bartender's heads is to put our carbonated drinks on
+
+[34:15] ice because ice is only at zero, and our carbonated drinks are at like -8. So, you know, when they when they're putting it when they're putting it on ice, they're warming it. You know, so it's like, like, don't do that. Do you add water to the mix precarbonated? with the alcohol because a lot of the I've tasted alcohol that's been made sparkling and the flavor is very, very odd.
+
+[34:39] Yeah, so like I once did bottle strength carbonation. And if you're gonna carbonate something at bottle strength, it has to be absurdly cold, like
+
+[34:50] -18 C, you know, otherwise the perception of alcohol is just crazy. If you get it down to a temperature where, like, let's say you're going to do, let's just use straight gin, right? If you're going to get it down to a temperature where it's like syrupy in the freezer, then and you carbonate it, it's quite enjoyable, but as it starts to warm up even a little bit. It's, to me, kind of unpleasant. And then if you add anything like a sugar or an acid to it for flavor, it just goes way out of balance. And I think the main problem that people do when
+
+[35:22] they when they're carbonating liquor is they serve it too high proof. So, you know, if you're if you're um, serving, uh, you know, a stirred cocktail is
+
+[35:34] going to be probably somewhere in the area of like 17, 18%, and a shaking cocktail. I have to go do the math again, but a shaking cocktail is going to be somewhere down closer to like 14, 15%. But like a carbonated cocktail should really be all the way down at like 12. You know, 12, yeah. I mean, if you look at the proportions of classic cocktails there about that. We used a, uh, if you've seen that machine, the alkalizer that measures all the kind of bricks balls, so the kind of ABV. So we were shaking. have one? We borrowed one. They're very expensive, but we borrowed one of her company. Anton Parr, alkalizer. Is it awesome? It really is awesome. Because you can check all the, uh, you know, the bricks percentages, but also the ABVs, uh, and we were talking to Harold about the, the, the, the perfect parameters of where flavor will hit and where you taste the
+
+[36:24] best. And it was between, I think, between 14 and 19. So within those kind of, you know, parameters. You've got like a, you know, the most enhanced amount of
+
+[36:39] flavor. a cocktail. When you carbonate, that punches stuff up, which is why you have to drop the I always drop the alcohol level in a carbonator drink. Yeah. But I mean, with the Tom Collins, you'd add slightly more sugar. That kind of floats the flavor a little bit more anyway. I mean, it's interesting problem, but most of the time, and I also remember when I 1st started carbonating, I would
+
+[36:59] basically, I would just shake a drink and then carbonate it. And those are 2 alcoholic and end up tasting too syrupy, and they fatigue your palate quite quickly, whereas, and they just taste a little bit, like the acid balance goes off a little
+
+[37:14] bit, and just add some, like lighten it a little bit with water, you know, not a boatload, but you lighten it a little bit with
+
+[37:21] water, and the whole thing just becomes more pleasant. As long as you keep the bubble level at the same. Are you gassing with, um, with, uh, Come dogs are using other gases too. I have the ability to do a nitrous CO2 mix. And when I make water, I use nitrous CO2 because I want to soften the bubbles a little bit. I want to have the same liveliness, but I want to soften the bubbles and nitrous is going to soften it. adds a little bit of sweetness and some creaminess, but really it just softens up that
+
+[37:53] bubble. Because I always find that the CI2 can actually make things more acidic. and it kind of registers as that. Yeah, it, I mean, you know, that, like the, the studies show that eventually it is your sour, uh, taste receptors that are responding to what an enzyme is doing to the
+
+[38:15] CO2 or the way CO2 affects a particular enzyme pathway on your tongue. So it is related to acidity. And it does actually produce acid. I mean, you know, carbonic acid. You know what I mean? Um, but I think the what carbonating a drink does, um, is really complicated. You know, um, I find that, uh, if you taste a drink flat that you want carbonated, it should taste a little too
+
+[38:43] weak and a little low in acid. And also, I like it a little low in sugar, because something that tastes balanced as a sipping drink, like, it just, it gets like syrupy and almost soda like for me. I don't want like a soda like flavor in my cocktail. You know what I mean? Especially people, because there were loads of Teslas. I think it was Bernard Lahous from food pairing, did loads of tests on the aroma on top of cocktails that had been carbonated, and the results were so, so varied in all over the place, just because, you know, what you're adding to, um, the, um, makes this a whole of a lot of Roma, because that CO2 is carrying and
+
+[39:22] almost stripping the flavor into a Rome, and then taking it to the top of the drink. So you've got a whole kind
+
+[39:31] of spectrum to look at, rather than just flavor. I mean, because if you take some Manhattan, there is some aroma, but there's not as much. So that kind of whole aroma spectrum kind of makes... That is a drill outside, isn't it? It's a jackhammer, I believe, yeah. Welcome to Roberta's. Well, we'll kind of change your perception of the drink as well, and that can very quite a lot. Yeah, and Manhattan is one that your entire perception has changed, and I think for the worst, I do test carbonated Manhattan. I don't know them at all. I think they're hideous. In fact, I use that as the demo of when carbonation goes bad. The other thing is, I think it's, you can make very excellent carbonated rum drinks, but I think it's also very easy to go wrong with
+
+[40:16] carbonated rum drink. You know, they can taste, they go from being a delicious drink to almost fake tasting.
+
+[40:23] There are great carbonated rum drinks. I've had other people's good carbonated rum drinks. I have made carbonated rum drinks that I also like, but it's like it's a difficult thing, I think, to do. You have to be spot on with your mix. I think to carbonate a rum drink properly. Jim carbonates like nobody's business. Like almost any gin drink can be made carbonated and it tastes delicious, or can be made to taste delicious. Um, But it's difficult. Like, it's difficult to do a carbonated tea beverage because the tannins get blown out. You know what I mean? Like they or amped up is what I mean. You know what I mean? And so it can be can be difficult. All right. Jack, should we go to one more commercial break? 784972128 cooking issues.
+
+[41:15] But you heard about me.
+
+[41:28] I am here to set you free. Don't let a stranger say his story. Bad is cheap and so alive. I got a place already for you. I spend between living and dying. Oh, my chicken, my chicken. But you got a gun of mine. You can leave your beer behind. Can't you tell I'm in your corner? Don't you know I'm good for you, you? We'd be too much together. There is nothing we can't do. No, no.
+
+[42:35] Welcome back to cooking issues here with Tony Cunningaro. And is everyone in England pronounced your name wrong? Is that why you always go by Tony C? Yes. I'm I'm pronouncing it wrong, but I'm close enough, right? You are close enough. yeah I've had some horrendous versions. I mean, it's quite funny whenever the post comes in. I think we've collected about 400 different spellings so far of my name. Yeah, just at the bar, yeah. So what's your what's your favorite? what's your favorite mispronunciation There was one with W's and Zs in, which, you know, is... How the hell do you get that? have no idea. It's just one of those kind of mysterious. The one you must most get all the time is Canigliaro. Because that's like a baseball player that actually went by that here in the US. Yeah, for the Boston Red Sox. Yeah, yeah. And he was Canigliaro, not Cornoyaro. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, anyway, so he goes by Tony. Of course, you know, in England, you are dealing with a country where they, they, you know, they say spag ball when they're talking about, what is
+
+[43:30] bag ball anyway, that's spaghetti bolognese? Yeah, spaghetti Bolognese. Yeah. Bolognese, yeah. Spag ball. Tony, by the way. Uh, true to his uh, Italian name is uh, what, you have Sicilian? Half Sicilian. Yeah, my father's from Sicily. You speak normal Italian or Sicilian or both? I speak normal Italian. Sicily it's like a complete different language that we didn't really learn. It's kind of only spoken by Sicilian Sicilians. Yeah. I mean, the odd word filters through, I think, but it's not as a whole, I don't know. Yeah. We're your family actually rabbit keepers back in the day. I have no idea, but I do know that that name comes from one village, and most kind of, you know, people that have that name. You know, have a line of heritage going back to a little village called Carini outside of
+
+[44:18] Palenmo in Sicily. Never been to Sicily Sunday. Someday I'll get to go. And by the way, I'm going to go ahead and apologize in advance to anyone whose questions I do not get to
+
+[44:28] today, because, you know, Tony's not here every day. In fact, he's never been here before. And so I didn't have a conversation with him somewhat, but if you have any questions for Tony, you still have a little bit of time to call any questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right. Quick one. Just a recommendation someone has in Tom Fisher from Lansdowne, PA, long time, listener. I'm looking to get a chamber vacuum sealer in the next month, and I've narrowed things down to the VACMaster VP 112 or the VP 215. I favor the VP 215 for the Faster Vacuum Times, oil-based pump
+
+[45:02] in choir operation, but it is huge, heavy, and $300 more. Is there any benefit to the home cooking getting the more expensive unit? Well, look, both of these units are kind of in the sub $1000 chamber vacuum machine range. Um, I have had nothing but bad luck with um, any vacuum machine that doesn't have an oil-based pump. The vacuum pump is just not strong enough. Now, that said, is it going to seal a steak? Yeah, you know what I mean? It will. If you're out there to do, like, you know, some of the hardcore, uh, like flash infusions, um, you know, if you're looking to do that kind of work with it, Um, You need a damn good vacuum man. Yeah. Yeah. And so the one that advertised itself as an oil-based pump. I mean, but the problem with that unit, I looked it up, is that it's like just in the middle. I mean, you can get a real good one from MiniPack for like 1500 with a real bush vacuum pump in it. And this one's in the $800 range. I know the one I just recommended is twice the price, but I have this problem. I have a strange genetic disorder that once I get over a certain price. God damn it, I need the real one. You know what I mean? It's like, if it was like 200 bucks, then I would just go ahead and get the one that was almost as
+
+[46:20] good. But as soon as it's like 800 bucks. I'm like, oh, hell, I need the real one. You know what I mean? You know what I mean, Tony, right? know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, but then, you know, so it says you do pay for, for, you know, the matter of fact machines we've got for over the years is phenomenal, and it was only until we discovered multivac, and we spent a bit of money on
+
+[46:39] it that it's actually last, and we put it for its paces, and we, you know, we,
+
+[46:43] we, we don't just use it for the, with the sous vide bags, we're sucking stuff out and blah, blah, blah. And some of the others just get clogged up and just bruised battered and destroyed because of that. But the multivac, you clean out, then you can start all over again. Yeah, I mean, you know, so the main commercial brands that are available here in the US, like the multivac, the mini pack, the
+
+[47:04] cotch, all of these, they all use this German vacuum pump called the bush pump. And the vast majority of the price of the vacuum machine is determined by the cost of that pump.
+
+[47:16] Bush pumps are just expensive, but they have some serious cojones on
+
+[47:20] them, and they, like Tony said, you know, you run those suckers, and they go, and then they get gummed up because you're going to vacuum water into them, not directly, but in the form of vapor.
+
+[47:31] It's going to contaminate it, and just run those suckers and clean them out. And then they're good as new again. So, you know, I don't know if the lesser vacuum pump, even if it's an oil-based pump, I mean, when it's brand new, it'll get down to the same vacuum levels as the bush, but the bush is like the timex
+
+[47:48] of, uh, you know, vacuum pumps that suckers takes a lick and it keeps on ticking. There's a reason why all of the big companies use it. And there's no way that a sub $1000 chamber vacuum
+
+[48:01] machine is going to have a bush pump in it, right? And so what they're doing, and the rest of it, I mean, programming is great, nice seal bars, it's all
+
+[48:08] fantastic. It's all great. Uh, what you're paying for with the more money is the awesome vacuum pump. Um, you know, the rest of it, you know, is, you know, I'm sure it won't crush under its own vacuum. You know what I mean? So I would definitely go for it for occasional use. I would get the oil based one. You're going to be, I think, less than satisfied with one that's not oil-based.
+
+[48:30] You could, if you're like me, rip the vacuum pump out of the other one and install a real
+
+[48:35] oil-based pump as a separate thing, but now you're talking about spending extra money, time and more space on your counter. Have you used a gaster back? Yeah. do you think? Okay. I'm not a fan of the gastrovac because, um, you know, theoretically, it's meant to do kind of vacuum, um, that can frying, so it's built around a vacuum fryer,
+
+[48:55] but, uh, it's vacuum pump is weak. You know, I mean, compared, now you can hook the gastrovac up to the vacuum pump in a
+
+[49:02] multivac, set the programming to be right, and you'd be damn good. The other thing is, is that, um, the gastrovac, by the way, is a modified pressure cooker with an acrylic lid and it goes to a vacuum pump and it lowers the pressure on the
+
+[49:14] inside, so you could do infusions in oil or frying, stuff like that. But the vacuum pump's just not that good. And that vacuum pump has no way to exhaust the water very well that you're sucking into
+
+[49:24] it, so it gets bogged down very quickly, needs a cold trap. So, you know, I, for Wiley, once I did a test where I ran a, I ran a, a line. I bypassed their vacuum, went directly into my vacuum pump because I use oil-based
+
+[49:37] refrigerator vacuum pumps as just like walk around vacuum pumps. You know, the ones that refrigeration technique technicians use, because they're pretty cheap and you can fill the oil really quickly. They're easy to get to. and used a liquid nitrogen cold trap. And then I got it to work. But as comes from the factory, I don't and even when using his infusion, I don't see why you wouldn't just use your vacuum machine. I mean, what do you have a good use for it? Yeah, I mean, we found that we just, just, even with no heat, just kind of infusing the cook,
+
+[50:06] that almost cold infusing the, the, the cordials and stuff like that.
+
+[50:12] But why not just use your chamber back, just because it's bigger. I think that's here. Yeah. Because you can do like kind of 2 to, you know, 2 to 4 liters in there rather than kind of having to keep putting things in and out and kind of
+
+[50:23] closing it. Well, you know what, what you should do. I did once is just take and build a, like a Lexan, uh, Lexan lid for like a giant stock pot, and then you could just go
+
+[50:34] ape, ape shit, hook it up to a vacuum machine. And then they just go. Yeah. I did that once for Wiley, like way back in the day, before anyone had anything, and I've done it occasionally for myself, when I'm like, uh, I use
+
+[50:49] a gastrovac pot, actually, pot when I'm doing a plaster casting, because I'll use it to deerate plaster, but you could probably go for that and buy, like, the large, um, basically deerators for model casting people, because plaster shops use them, and plastics shops use them to deerate resins and plaster before they pour them into molds, and they have some
+
+[51:10] big pots. And since your food's not going to be directly in it, it's going to be inside of another container in there.
+
+[51:16] Who cares? You know, like what it's made out of. I think they're made out of probably like, you know, plastic and aluminum or something like that. But I mean, who cares? You know what I mean? The food's not going to touch it. And then just make sure you got a good enough vacuum pump on it. All right. Oh, our pizza is showing up. Awesome. So, uh, we got another, we, you know, we have a, we have some fans in Bergen, Norway, which I enjoy. Wow. Yeah, Norway. out of Norway. Yeah. I have Jack, I've already told my one Swedish joke on the air? I don't think so. No? No, maybe I just want to hear it again though. Oh, you want to hear it again? I only have one Swedish joke. Can I use it to taunt nils, my, you know, longtime coworker and good friend who's now back with Marcus Samuelson running all of his restaurant stuff. So, uh, And only Swedes and Norwegians will get this one. Hey, Tony, what's what's a Swede? It's a root vegetable? No, no, that's only in England. What's okay, what's a Swedish person? What's a Swedish person? You don't know? A Norwegian without the oil money. Boom! Yeah. Studio audience like that. Yeah, Norwegians love that one. Anyway, okay. Hopefully I haven't already told that one too many times on the radio. But, you know, if you have a, if you have a, like a Sweden Norway joke. You got to pull it out every once in a while. I have no pony in that race, so I can say whatever I want. Okay. Anyway, Arnie Skog from Arnie Skog Olsen from Bergen, Norway writes in, and says, big fan of the radio show, highlight of his week. I keep up the good work, you know, I hope you have a better week than having this be the highlight. I'm actually your 2nd listener from Bergen, Norway. However, I'm writing you from Brooklyn as I'm here for a few days. I might even go to see you at Roberta's this Tuesday. I't know if he's in the audience, because I don't know what he looks like, audience. I don't know if he's eating pizza at the back is what I mean. Is Indie Jesus on today, by the way? I don't think so. He switched off Tuesdays? I saw him here the other day on a Sunday. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Anyway, New York City is great. I went with a colleague of mine, we're art critics to Booker and Dax, our bar. I'm sorry, I missed you. We loved it, especially the gin and juice. Gin juice is a good drink. Brady, good drink. I like that drink. We went back a couple days later to have awesome whole pork button oysters at
+
+[53:31] Momofukusambar next door. Awesome couple questions. Where can I get calcium hydroxide, like pickling lime in New York City. For some reason, it's impossible to get in Norway, eBay works, but shifting is really expensive, and I'm here now. So by the way, I made rye tortillas, which is I have a recipe for on my blog, using sodium carbonate made by
+
+[53:49] heating sodium, bicarbonate, which worked, but the carbonate had no, not such agreeable flavor to my palate. Still awesome. Thanks for the Knicks to Mall post on your blog from way back in the day. Yes, go to, to get that stuff, go to Kalustians, 123rd
+
+[54:02] Street and Lex between 28th and 29th Street, fantastic place for all your general weird spice news. Good place, right? They have it, or at least they should have it. If they don't have it, it goes under a bunch of different names, slaked lime, calcium hydroxide, pickling lime. If you want to get the Thai version of lime paste in red or white, go to Bangkok grocery on 104 Moscow. Moscow is in kind of Little Italy, Chinatown area, uh, over by where the 5 points district used to be, but call them ahead because sometimes they're out.
+
+[54:30] If you want actual Cal from Mexico, go to El
+
+[54:34] Tepayak grocery on Lexington Avenue and like 103rd Street. and while you're there, stop by Kitchen Arts and Letter, the greatest cookbook store in the United States.
+
+[54:43] Anyway, yeah. Also, uh, an interesting question in, same, same color on, uh, you know, Lute Fisk, have you ever had it? Lutfisk. Lutfisk, it's the fish that, it's like, you take stockfish, which is, you know, the one that's air dried without the salt, and then you soak it
+
+[54:59] and lie, and or you rehydrate it a little bit, then you soak it and lie, then you wash the lie out, and it turns all gelatinous and funky. No, it's kind of like a well-known thing that everyone who's not from there doesn't like it. It's kind of like a slippery. I haven't actually had it. But Harold McGee, our mutual friend Harold McGee, who's now in China, you know, introduced me to a recipe for lie curing eggs really quickly. And so Nils and I did a fake lute fisk where the egg was lute fisk flavored and the fish was just kind of cured regular fish. It was good. I liked it. Anyway, so this is for a weird dish, wondering whether you could do it, long introduction to this, that he calls
+
+[55:38] Lute, which means, like, lie, right? So Lut Fisk is like live fish. And I can't pronounce the 2nd part of it, but lute pinnejot, yurt. I don't know. So this idea was proposed by a friend of mine. So, uh, he goes on to describe Lute Fisk, very old traditional Norwegian disk made from dry cod, with lie. Uh, but there's this other dish that is really famous there called Pinak
+
+[56:04] Jut, which I can't pronounce, which is the whole side of lamb, salted and dried, sometimes smoked, cut along the ribs to make sticks of meat, rehydrated for 24 hours to take the salt out, and then steamed until the
+
+[56:15] salt until the meat falls off the bone. This guy really likes it. So what he's wondering is, uh, and his Italian friend came up with this idea is, can you make that stick meat with a lie solution, same way that you
+
+[56:28] do Lutefisk? And basically he's wondering what happens to the fat. Will it turn to soap? Well, it's uponify with the calcium hydroxide or with lye or with other alkaline. And yes, I think it will. Yes. But the question is like, how long? I mean, I've tested it with chicken, and like a little bit of chicken, and I've boiled chicken with calcium hydroxide, and it tastes good in small amounts, but if you look, apparently I did some research, and in Finland, if you overcure the Lutfisk there, they have a word for it called soap
+
+[57:02] fish, because you've saponified the fats. And if you think about it, the cod that you're using or whatever, laying or whatever you're using in Norway to make your
+
+[57:10] lutfisk is a very lean fish. And so there's very little fat to saponify in that fish. And so you typically don't do it on really kind of oily, oily fish. So I would be wary. I would use very lean cuts of meat and I would not necessarily soak it in as high a solution or for as
+
+[57:29] long, but you will get the tenderizing effect. Look, alkaline tenderization is something that's used in China, for instance, alkaline solutions in meat to get really soft kind of meat textures in beef that's kind of cut thin, marinated in like a baking soda solution or
+
+[57:45] a live solution, not live alkaline solution, and then cooked. And the, you know, the basic principle is that
+
+[57:50] the alkaline solution weakens the protein bonds and so therefore makes it softer, right? And so it'd be interesting to try. A little bit of the modification is good and like lends some of the characteristic flavor to things like tortillas, but a lot of
+
+[58:07] saponification equals soap. And so it wouldn't necessarily be good. But anyway, Arnie, I hope you try it. I hope you stop by Roberta's. They wanted some recommendations or someone else actually wanted some recommendations of places to eat.
+
+[58:24] Jack, do we have another show coming on the air? We got to wrap it up right now. Oh, all right. listen, Tony, thanks for coming in. Pleasure. Anyone who's anyone who's in London, if you don't go to one of Tony
+
+[58:37] C's bars, you are a fool. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[59:02] radio network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[59:07] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted And I just can't get it straight.
+
+[59:17] Fish, fish, is vodka. Oh, you dirty
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage
+
+[0:07] Radio Network.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday. Joined again in the studio with Nastasia, Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Dawson? Yeah. What's wrong? I like that. Yeah, so last week, uh, while I was here chilling with uh, Tony Canoyaro in the in the studio, Nastasia was pretending to be me in Orlando, Florida, with the
+
+[0:50] Buke people, makers of our favorite Rodovap. How did that go? Good. I get all the cool trips to Orlando. Dave goes to Sweden and Berlin. I know, you're just a lucky one, right? lucky one. Yeah. Well, I told you, you're supposed to get a free trip to Switzerland there that for those of you that don't know, Nastasia is a Switzerland lover. Italian Swiss lover. They're German Swiss. This does not interest me. So are you now insulting Bukey, who, like, may give us stuff? No, I'm not. They love me. All right. Call me all the Christians too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And Nastasia writes here, but today is the... It's not Indie Jesus. I know. We haven't seen him in a while, but there's another name. No, no, he's here. He just doesn't work on Tuesdays. on Sunday. This is like India Apostle. He's like a pale, pale shadow of the real baby Jesus. That's a real nice dude. Oh, I'm not saying he's no, we're not saying he's bad. I'm not saying he's a bad human being. I'm saying he's a pale shadow of indie Jesus and his Jesusness. That's all. all I'm saying. Another note before we move on to more germane issues. Today, Nastasia tells me, is the 1st day of spring, which is interesting that she cares about that because for those of you that are ever going to meet Nastasia, never say to her that the weather is nice out,
+
+[2:02] never. It's not that she hates bad weather like I do. I actually hate bad good weather, rather. I hate the sun. I hate everything about it. I'd be a cave dwelling atrogodide if I could. But Nastasia likes nice weather, but hates people in nice weather. True. when they're happy. Yeah. You want to explain that for the first? I just don't I just don't like how people associate weather with their happiness, their level of happiness and
+
+[2:27] productivity. really deep. So she's she's like, that person said it was nice, so they're going to have a go have a good time outside. Those bastards. She hates that, right? What if they're hipsters? That was the worst. Like, a fair weather happy hipster is like Nastasia Kryptonite. Okay. This in from Elliot Papinau. I made corned beef sausage over the weekend, the idea came from Rob Levitt at the butcher and larder in Chicago, a place I've never been. I haven't been to Chicago in a couple years though. I used to go to the MRA show. You know, the National Restaurant Association, not the rifle show. But, you know, budgets being what they are. I haven't been in a while. Anyway, the corned beef sausages were outstanding. Corned beef, potato, carrot, cabbage, cooked, ground and stuffed. Um, I did it the same way you would do a boudon noir. I started with some sauerkraut, which is delicious, and mustard on a rye sausage roll. I think the dish would also work and presented like Dave Chang's hot brown. I had to go look up Dave's hot brown, hot brown, as you may or may not know, is a very famous Kentucky dish from the Brown Hotel in Louisville based on kind of like a Welsh
+
+[3:32] rarebit kind of thing, which I used to love Welsh rarebit, which was just toast with like a cheese sauce over the top. You ever like you ever have that? Has nothing to do with rabbit. It is not Welsh rabbit, Welsh rarebit. It's basically a toast with cheese sauce. It's good stuff, but it's like, it's got like some white wine in the cheese sauce, so it's a little... You'd like it actually. Sounds good. Yeah. anyway. So this is a take on that, but of course, because it's Kentucky, they throw a bunch of meat in it, so it's got like turkey and bacon and whatnot. So Dave Chang turns out. I hadn't seen it before. It was in Lucky Peach. I go did, I looked at the video on the web, and it had our boy Nick Wong in it. But the funny thing is, Nick Wong was, you know, one of our great interns back at the SCI, worked at Sambar,
+
+[4:11] Monfugusan Bar for many years. Fantastic guy I think he's, the video was shot after Nick left. I think he was just there to pretend to be Dave Chang, to see
+
+[4:20] that anyone would notice, because he used to walk around Sambar with a hat pulled over his head and rush up on people as though he were Dave Chang to freak people out.
+
+[4:28] Anyway, so what Dave did was to lighten it up by rolling it in a tube in Saran, uh, like, you know, like our Miklo tubes, like, or Miklo
+
+[4:36] tubes, more accurately, but it was Turkey with, uh, I forget it was in the, there's another layer. Oh, country ham, which is delicious. Uh, and then, uh, he put, uh, Gelan set, uh, like a Mornay sauce in the middle of it. fried it up, started with a delicious looking broth. Anyway, interesting. So yes, you probably could do it that way, Elliot. Anyway, second, I sent Dave a question about smoking tomatoes in the past. I vaguely remember that. You remember that? Not really. Remember I said get to dry him out first? Anyway. And just read in the Wall Street Journal about the fatty cues, Smoked Tomato Bloody Mary. Have you tasted it or tried to make your own at BDX? I have not. In fact, we haven't done any sort of smoked anything at the bar. And the main reason is because I have a bunch of friends who are very well known for doing
+
+[5:23] smoky drinks. I mean, we use smoke in the form of uh, mezcal or uh, certain scotches that have
+
+[5:31] a smoky note, but we haven't actively smoked anything because if I smoked uh, a syrup, uh, Eben uh, Freeman would come up to me and be like,
+
+[5:39] no, smoking syrup now? What are you making smoked coke next? right? Which, you know, I don't want to hear from, because Evan likes to rib me anyway, right? So I don't want to give him anything actually rib me on. And then if I did something with meat, like bacon, Don Lee, and also Evan Freeman would come up and be like, really, Dave? Really? Really? Smoky bacon? Anyway, so I'm sure it's delicious. I haven't tasted. I would love to taste it, but it's not something I can put on the bar menu without having a bunch of my friends come down
+
+[6:06] on me like a ton of bricks. What do you think, stuff? Yeah. Okay. This in from Andrew. I was hoping you could talk about the possibility of using just Pectinex Ultra SPL for enzymatic peeling. Pecnix Ultra SPL is the magical enzyme that we use that you can get from modernistpantry.com. Anyway, it eats any kind of pecked in and hemicellulose. I use it for French fries. I use it for enzymatic peeling, which we're about to talk about in a minute. They use it to clarify all of our juices. Anyway, I believe we're, I believe I recall, reading or hearing that a 1000 grams of water, a.k.a. a liter, uh, a 1000 grams of water, uh, and 3 grams of pectinex, uh, solution, um, water mixed with 3 grams of
+
+[6:48] pectnex was sufficient. If a 12 hour refrigerated soak is used basically to peel fruit enzymatically to get rid of the membranes,
+
+[6:54] all right? I peeled my citrus and vacuum sealed it using a chamber sealer in
+
+[6:58] a 1000 grams of water, 3 grams Pecanex, and let it soak for 12 hours. When I came back, most of the pith, who has a gooey texture, easily washed away. Unfortunately, the membrane between the segments was still intact and needed to be carefully removed. The exposed portion of the membrane was mostly dissolved. In the future, if just using pectinex, I will need to, uh, will I need to separate each segment, or is there another time saving method? I had bagged a mixture of caracara oranges, real star grapefruit, blood tangerine, kishu mandarin, and minio tangelo. All had similar results, but some were more easily peeled. Thanks to the great show, and I'll be in New York this summer. I plan on hitting up booker index. Okay. Yes, Pecninex Ultra SPL is all you need. But, and you actually don't even need a vacuum sealer for this guy. Uh, your main mistake, and you don't even need to soak it that long and it doesn't need to be in fridge. In fact, it's going to act longer, act faster if you just keep it out. We usually keep ours. Uh, you know, in warm room temperatures. So the enzyme acts faster. I mean that's just what we do. Now. I mean, you can use a vacuum to get it into the pith faster, but you do need to separate out the segments. Even with a vacuum, if you put a whole peeled citrus in a bag. It's not going to penetrate into the inner membranes. It's just not. And then by the time you broke it apart. It just never seems to work as well. So what you want to do, it might eat through one membrane. You want to break them into as small segments as you can without breaking the actual segments
+
+[8:18] apart or without actually cutting into the vesicle. So grapefruits are fairly easy. The hard ones are things like pomelo, and those, you just kind of split it in
+
+[8:29] half, and then in quarters, and there's so much pith in a pomelo, that a lot of times you can eat between it as long as you break it into smaller pieces and let it soak, you know, for a while.
+
+[8:39] I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't do it at refrigeration temperature because I think that's just going to just slow things down.
+
+[8:44] Another thing you want to keep the peels, try to keep them as whole as possible, put them in the bag with it, and it'll eat the white albedo away from the
+
+[8:51] peel and you get these amazing appeals. I thought we used ice water, wasn't it? I bagged it when I use a vacuum machine, I bag it with ice water so that I can get a good vacuum seal on
+
+[9:00] it, and then I would remember throw it into a hot water bath, warm water bath to heat it back up, melt out the ice and get the enzyme cooking. I didn't want to make it that complicated, but that's actually the way that's actually the way I do it when I do it. You can go on, uh, cookingissues.com, which is still up, even though I haven't written on it
+
+[9:16] in a long time, and there's a whole article there I did on enzymatic peeling with all of my
+
+[9:20] procedures. I don't use 3 grams per liter. I think I use four. I use 4 now. Maybe I use 3 back when I wrote it, but we typically use 4 now. You can never know exactly how good the enzymatic activity is of your badge depending on how old it is. And 4 always seems to work, and it's not going to add any off flavors, and it's not particularly more expensive when you're using it in restaurant quantity, right? If you're going to do the peels, sometimes a toothbrush is helpful to scrape away all
+
+[9:43] the melted albedo. It's a gross word, right? Yeah. All right. Anyway, you want to go to our 1st Mart? Okay. Yeah? Our 1st commercial break, call your questions too. 718-4972128. That 718-497-2128 cooking issue. Well, excuse me. Take a few minutes to mellow out. Big addict cane is on the mic and I'm a tell about a minimum limp of rhymes with strength and power. So listen to the man of the hour. Flow and go to a slow tempo and you know, sing ho, swing,
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+[10:18] load, then, yo, the show will go on, zopper, form, transformational stage. I got decepticon. But I'm not animated like a cartoon. I'm a real shooting lyrics like a harpoon. Across the crowd, the listeners and spectators. So let's groove with the smooth operator. Just sounds so smooth.
+
+[10:46] This sounds so smooth. The BIGDA double DYKANE. I'm good and plenty. Serve a minion in competition wishing for an expedition. I'm straight up... Hello and welcome back to cooking issues. All right. Now last week, because I had Tony here, I didn't make it to all of the questions from last week. So Nastasia rightly says, I should go over last week's questions before I go over this week's questions. So, from Joel Gargano. Hello, guys. I want a really weird and interesting corporate kitchen, cafeteria, really, here in New Haven, New Haven. You lived in New Haven for many years. I was at Yale and I lived there for 2 years afterwards. Nice town. I actually like New Haven. Anyway, feeding lunch to the company's employees. I wonder what company it is. Hmm. Anyway, uh, being a trained chef and working in a fine, uh, working in fine dining as a cook for the past 10 years, I took the opportunity to not only run my own kitchen, but experiment as much as possible and throw some
+
+[11:40] cool chiznit out to the staff. I'm a bread baker, 2nd generation, charcuterie, not DIY obsessive and really into modernist technique. For example, I'm doing all my deli meats brined, and then SUVed, sous vide, both salami and for sausages, and they're all coming out killer. Doing charcuterie in an office building. Weird. They all come through the buffet line, pulling house made bread and freshly cooked and or cured meats, and put them onto plastic cafeteria trays, walk to their high school appropriate lunch table and discuss marketing strategies.
+
+[12:05] It's pretty hilarious. Thought I'd share that with you guys. The movement is all over the place. nice, right? It's good to people use. I like that stuff. The question, I'm currently attempting to create some vegan desserts for select crew of the company using hydrocoloids. I developed a super good chocolate mousse appropriate for an ISI, that's the whipped cream makers, using
+
+[12:21] versa whip, which is either soy, protein, or milk protein, depending on what it is, whey, or soy protein, and
+
+[12:28] UltraTax 8, which is a pre-cooked starch. total success. Soy whip cream, however, is totally failing. I need some help. What type of hydrocholid should I use for this? Xanthan and LBG, which is locust bean gum? Turn it into snot. is known to do that. Xanthan is the snotty gum if you use it in too high a quantity. And I tried to use VersaWip minuses anthangum and LBG, but got it a runny mess. I'm assuming that the chocolate works so well because it stabilizes the mixture while the soy milk does not. If the fat content is the fat, if the fat content of soy milk is messing with me, should I try gelatin? Well, you shouldn't try gelatin if you want it to be vegan gel? That's for sure. Not if you're going to tell anyone, right? Yeah. If you want to try something that's like gelatin that might whip into it, Uh, they make a, um, a Carraginanist, uh, Agar, people use Agar, but I
+
+[13:14] wouldn't, people typically use Carraginen, uh, for things like this. And in particular they use a specialist carragin and for whipping, if you're going to make marshmallows called genutine. And genuine is made by the CP Kelco Corporation, and it's specifically a
+
+[13:27] Kerragin, and it's meant to be a gelatin replacer for applications like marshmallows, a.k.a. things that need to be whipped and hold their texture well. Now, I think I looked up, there's a, I think what it is, is it's a lack of fat, is the problem, is why it's not, it might whip
+
+[13:43] up, It's not holding its whipping. I looked up a like an in can, like a ready whip situation. Uh, soy whip topping that's available, I think, mainly in the UK called Soyitu. And luckily, their ingredient list was on the web. So I read it. It's organic soy milk, uh, organic fat, uh, fractionated palm curl oil, organic sugar
+
+[14:04] beet syrup, maltodextrin, tartaric acid, carragan, and sea salt, uh, and vanilla extract. Okay, so let's break this down one by one. Soy milk is the main thing that you want to make out of it. what you want to whip up, right? They've added coconut oil and palm kernel oil, probably to get something that's fairly solid. I think you're going to want a fairly solid fat, like a coconut, uh, style
+
+[14:23] of thing, like coconut fat mixed with a little coconut milk, maybe, something that's going to give it some body that is a,
+
+[14:28] a fat that is fairly solid at refrigerator temperatures because it's going to give you more body. Um, okay? And then they're adding maltodextrine, and I went, oh, sugar for sugurness, obviously. They're adding maltodextrin. What that's doing is adding some extra masks, some body to the soy milk and giving it extra kind of whipping properties. Tartaric acid is probably there just for flavor. And carragin is there as the, uh, carragin is there as the
+
+[14:55] gelling agent, which is going to be a whipping agent, and it's going to be, uh, also something that's going to provide some structure after it's been whipped. I would guess they add a little bit of something called iota carrogene and in because carrogene into a
+
+[15:06] blend because it will reform a gel after it stands still. Vanilla is just for flavor and they add nitrous oxide to whip it. So I would do that. I would add fat. 1st of all, is going to get you a higher whipping quality on it. I would have it be cold as hell, same way you would with whipped cream. I would add some maltodextrin, and I would use some carrotine in,
+
+[15:24] preferably, genutine in the mix with it. And you should be able to get a good, should be able to get a good result. Yeah? Yes. Yes. Okay. And by the way, I thought you think this is the funniest. When I was researching it, one of the 1st people to come out with vegan marshmallows, we're using a vegan gelatin replacer from this company called
+
+[15:43] Eames. And it turns out that these guys. It was kosher gelatin, right? And it was advertised that it was vegan, hmm? Turns out, whole thing was made out of regular gelatin. They were just selling it to all these vegans and these kosher guys. And literally like what happened is like this woman who was making vegan marshmallows. She like quit her job in finance or law or something like that and became a vegan marshmallow maker. She called up the guy and was like, hey, are these is this gelatin? Is this totally vegan? And he's like, yeah, this vegan, what's vegan? You know what I mean? So the company ended up going out of business and yada, yada, bloody, bloody. Did you see Ellen had a how to be a vegan on her website? I did not. I was on Ellen last week for St. Patty's Day. And she turns out to she's a vegan. She was a nice lady, though. She seems very nice. Well, I didn't mean to like that. Only you mean things like that. She's a nice lady, though. No, I just look, look, people want it, it has nothing. They're unrelated. They're unrelated statements. Like people always want to know it's the person a nice person. Oh, Jesus, you know, nostasia? She's like, you're a crazy person. But you know what's funny? I show up at the show and the producer, very nice, said, you know, Ellen, I was making alcoholic drinks, duh, for St. Patrick's Day, you know, because I'm at a
+
+[16:54] bar. And they were like, you know, Ellen is not going to be able to drink the alcohol because she's shooting 2 shows.
+
+[17:00] She shoots 2 shows on a Thursday. And I was like, crap. And then so I had to go in. I was trying to make all these non-alcoholic versions that looked like and tasted similar to the ones mint. I did a mint drink. It's impossible to do it non-alcoholic because the mint turns brown. Anyway. Um, so, so she shows up and she's like, what are you talking about? I'll drink it. I was like, yeah, Ellen. Yeah. And then she slams in Jameson. What? Yeah, she's pounding Jameson like, damn, I'm kidding. She didn't. She did. took a sip. My kids, you know, who never don't know Ellen. I like, it's Dory from Nemo. They were like, crap, you met Dory. That's freaking awesome. Anyway, this question in, this is a long one from Ali, I think it's Colette or Colette? I don't know, Colette. You know, Colette, Colette, Colette. Anyway, 1st of all, I like to say how much I've enjoyed listening to your show over the past few months. I say months because I only discovered the show recently, I spent most of my commute to and from work catching up with every single podcast. We'll appreciate it. I appreciate it. It's really refreshing to hear a cooking show from people who understand the practical application of science and
+
+[17:56] cooking, and who are not afraid of using ingredients and methods which others might deem foolish, or which might foolishly dismiss, or both, maybe. I do have lots of questions I like to ask, but I thought I'd keep things brief. Sorry for not calling you up to ask you the time differences in the UK. The show overlasts with I'm on my way home. Make from work making things difficult. I was wondering what your thoughts were on seasoning meat. Taking steak as an example. I tend to season roughly an hour in advance, generously sprinkle the salt, sprinkle with
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+[18:21] salt, and occasionally adding a small amount of minced, minced garlic with the salt. After an hour, I'll wipe off the excess moisture before cooking using the sear flip every 20, 30 seconds method. the McGee special, where you flip it a bunch of times to get a more even heat, and it's a good way to approximate. It's a good way to actually to approximate kind of either a rotisserie or a low temp cook using a regular thing because the heat meat never overheats all the way
+
+[18:42] through. It's basically a very high instantaneous heat input, but a low average heat input, good technique. Anyway, this method seems to work very well, but it does raise some questions. First, you have, of course, covered on your blog about how if you were cooking a steak CV'd. You should not salt the meat pre-seer unless you were serving it immediately. If you're only salting it afterwards, which does not result in an inferior flavor due to the salt only being on the surface and not seasoning through the meat. I guess I'm looking for further tests between salt, cook, serve, and salt, chill, salt, serve. Second, is the seasoning well in advanced method only really useful for less tender cuts, but cuts have not been dry aged for any serious length of time, which will contain more
+
+[19:16] moisture or should it always be used. I did notice that when Heston Blumenthal has covered steaks in 2 separate cooking shows, he's never really talked about seasoning as if it had much importance, which I found odd, but maybe I'm thinking it's more of an issue than it really is. Now, okay, now look. Here's the deal. If I'm going to serve a steak right away, and by right away, I mean within a couple of hours, I always season the meat beforehand
+
+[19:36] because yes, I do think it probably makes a better tasting steak. However, that it's not just seasoning and retaining of moisture, the textural difference and the color difference of the steak that's been salted a long time in advance. Let's say 3 hours, 4 hours in advance, is not just not nearly as good. To me as a steak, uh, then it would be if you didn't salt it beforehand. And so, um, you know, the any advantage, which is relatively minor, of salting the meat, me, it's there, I agree, but relatively minor compared to the textual breakdown of the meat, uh, from
+
+[20:08] oversalting beforehand. I just don't think it's worth it. So I tend not to salt meat beforehand. Now, when I'm serving a steak, I almost always will slice. I 1st of all, I salt the bee Jesus off the out of the steak outside of the steak right before I see it. Like, you know, you know how in like a home cooked, when they sear, uh, well, nothing, when, you know, when most people sear a
+
+[20:28] steak doesn't matter where they're working, they, they put a small amount of salt on the outside. Look, when you're searing steak people, put an absurd amount of salt on the outside before you
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+[20:37] sear it because most of it's going to come off anyway. You know what I mean? So sear the heck out of it. And then I find that the advantages of pre-salting way beforehand aren't nearly as great. Also, I tend to cut my steaks before I serve them and serve them in
+
+[20:50] pieces so I can also salt the cut face if I need to. It's not a situation, for instance, like bread where if you don't salt it beforehand, your bread is going to be awful, like the Tuscan bread, although
+
+[21:02] Nastasia claims to like Tuscan bread, even though everyone in the world knows it tastes awful, you know, right? You like it, right? Why? just like it. Why? Maybe it's memory oriented. Is it the sallow, disgusting crush, or is it the lack of flavor in the crumb that you like best? Anyway, um, so, the thing is, is, uh,
+
+[21:23] it's not the same as that, it's also not the same as when you're cooking something in a braise, and you undersalt it, and then you don't get the seasoning all the way
+
+[21:31] through. It's something that's long cooked like a pot roast or something like that. Because in a situation like that, you're relying on the seasoning penetrating the meat for the flavor of the dish. Anyway, uh, that's just my, uh, that's just my 2 my ¢2. That makes sense to us. Yeah. My other question is regards to New York City. I know someone called some time ago about places to visit, and I did know down some of them, but I think you mentioned you would email Alyssa's suggestions to them personally for
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+[21:52] bars, restaurants. We're going to be heading over, what? Yes. We're going to be heading over for a week on the 1st leg of my two-week tour of gluttony. The following week. We're on a grant Aikits pilgrimage to Chicago for next slash Alinia slash aviary place.
+
+[22:06] We've never been. I've been to, you know, a lineum, of course. We have a pretty tight schedule, but I thought I would ask for some feedback on what I've got down so far during my 1st week of April.
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+[22:14] I'm going to go to kijitsu, Nastachi, you're supposed to make your vegan face, but you've been, right? That's the Japanese temple food place, the one that's or the, it's um, vegan or
+
+[22:23] it's supposed to be really, really good. WD 50. Gotta go to WD 50. My brother-in-law, Wiley, his joint, Mama Focusam, and Noodle Bar. And then if you're there, go to BDX, per se, that's Tony's favorite place. should mention it last night. Roberta's. Yeah, Tuesday, although listen, if you want to see Indy Jesus, turns out Sunday at lunchtime. Sunday is appropriate to see. I haven't even thought of that. That's crazy. And 11 Madison Park. I think we could squeeze one more nice meal in and I'm basically left with going for one of the nice sushi places like Yasuda, Masa's way out of league budget. No, no, go to Bar Masa. It's it's the same and it's amazing and you aren't losing anything. Yeah? Now, see, here is good information from the stud. The rare piece of good. The only thing I've ever said. Oh, no. No, but it is true. Barmasa, same thing, less money. amazing. Yeah? Yes. Was that on your list that you had on your email list? Probably. And Blue Hill at Stone Barnes. Um, as another place he's looking to go. Anyway, so what we're going to do, uh, is at the end of the show, if there's time, Nastasia's going to read out her email list. My phone is not recognizing the word restaurant in any I never typed restaurant. iPhones. iPhones. Yeah. Well, maybe next week we can start the show with Estachio's reading off a list of stuff. And don't forget to come to Booker and Tax Bar from
+
+[23:38] Ali Collette all the way from London, England. So, let's go to our 2nd commercial break. Call your questions two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[24:18] Yeah. Yeah.
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+[24:26] Seldom travel by the multitude. The devil's devil has a couple food. My coach is screwed 'cause this word is misconstrued. Small countries that jump on food, 'cause leaders have different views, YouTube. What mean the world to me is beating free? Living, let, living. just let it be, let it be, love, peace, and harmony, one universal family, one God, one aiming one destiny. Imagine life without a choice at all. And welcome back to cooking issues. Call your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Coming question from last week. I can't remember whether I answered. If so, I'll answer it again if I did last week. Stephen Garrett wrote in with 2 questions. I think I only answered one. The 2nd one comes off the tail of Rulman. That's, uh, you know, Roman from Soul of a Chef, and who writes all of uh, Thomas, not writes all of them, whatever. Thomas Keller books, and also charcuterie. Uh, Paulson Roman. Anyway, leaving his stock on the stove, the heat not on for days on end and heating it up to the boil as he needs it. And subsequently, Harold McGee, our buddy Harold McGee, still in China, I think. What? Cool. Yeah. calling him out for unsafe food practice. So basically, Ruleman wrote this article, this blog post where he's like, hey, listen, our great grandpappy's didn't
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+[25:35] have a, you know, a refrigerator to put the stock in. So we would just leave it out, and then the next day we would boil it again before we used it, kill all the nasty stuff, and then that's it. Go. Come on. I'm not dead yet. Come on, grandpappy. Well he is dead, but you know, anyway, not from that. And then McGee was like, so I think the times asked McGee to comment on this. And McGee was like, well, I mean, of course, the odds are that nothing bad is going to happen, but there are things that can happen, especially if it's not brought up properly, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[26:03] And it basically, it's not considered a 100% safe practice to do so. And since most of us own a
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+[26:09] refrigerator. Why wouldn't we put it in the refrigerator? And the other thing is, is you're going to get quality degradation as the thing sits out over time at room temperature. So why wouldn't you just refrigerate it? That's the point. Uh, so, uh, so then he's like, okay, so if Roman was kind of mistaken about that, and I'm not getting
+
+[26:26] it. That what McGee said about Rulman, although I tend to agree. So when the rules takes, talks about meat and saying when it's cured, it's cured and nothing bad is going to happen to it. You don't have to worry about meat that's being left out. If it's cured. Should I take that with a grain of salt or is salt stopping all the bad stuff that is in it? Question in from Stephen Wellington, New Zealand. Well, well, you know, I read the post, uh, Roman was talking about. He was talking about, I think it was last week, I was looking it up, but it was duck prosciutto, I think. Or some sort of, you know, hanging meat that he just wiped with, you know, a mixture of nitrites and salt and hung it
+
+[27:00] up. And, you know, sometimes mold can develop on it depending on the moisture content of it and the relative, you know, the temperature and the humidity
+
+[27:08] in the atmosphere, et cetera, et cetera. And the question is, is it true, what Roman says, that nothing bad is going to grow on that meat? So you don't really need to worry about it. Well, mostly, yes. Mostly that's true. Although, I mean, I would take it with a, you know, I would take it with a little bit of a grain of
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+[27:26] salt. I mean, there are bad things that can happen, 2 meat that has been cured. They cured meat itself probably isn't bad, but for instance, you could contaminate cured
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+[27:35] meat and then it could have really nasty stuff on it that doesn't die right away, right?
+
+[27:39] So, yes, you know, and also, it depends on whether you've used enough salt. So, you know, if you haven't used enough salt, then you haven't cured, you haven't killed all the bad stuff. So just the fact that you have cured it and that it looks cured isn't necessarily mean that it's always going to be okay in all circumstances. However, for the most part, if you properly cure something and follow the instructions, then yes, nothing bad is
+
+[28:01] going to happen. But let's not forget that in ground meats, especially if you don't get the proper pH and you don't use the proper salt amount, you don't have the proper amount of nitrates, that you could do yourself some serious damage. Let's not forget that the word botulism comes from the Latin word for
+
+[28:15] sausage, okay? Yeah. Although that doesn't really happen anymore because people, you know, they cure things properly. Anyway. Okay, now, uh, now I got to find another question. Okay. Derek Bodkin wrote in with a question saying Dave and Co. That would be you and dad and the rest. Is it possible to substitute Eastern red cedar berries for juniper berries? Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome. Okay, so here in the US, a lot of us don't have the, uh, you know, the standard juniper that we use in flavoring, which is juniper, I guess, communist, I
+
+[28:51] think is what it's called, Juniperus Communist, something like that. I don't have the Latin in front of me. And that's the one that's used for flavoring, but a lot of us have around the
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+[29:00] Eastern Red Cedar, which is, I'm going to make it up now. Gina Paris, and then like Virginianica or something like that. Sounds like Virginia, whatever. Anyway, common, you know, it's a common juniper that's around here a lot. It's also used a lot as an ornamental. It turns out that the red cedar, the berries are edible, in fact, and have been used sends prehistoric times by Native American tribes living in
+
+[29:22] America as both the leaves, the berries, and the bark have been used in various decoctions and
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+[29:30] teas for various various, you know, ailments that you might have. So yes, they can be used. The wood, apparently, is also quite nice. But the downside is that it doesn't have the same powerful aromatic quality that the traditional juniper
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+[29:47] is. So it's not going to, well, it's not going to be as baller, necessarily, of juniper flavor. That said, you know, if you taste it and you like it, then maybe you can use it in a way that's different from a,
+
+[29:59] you know, the juniper that we're used to, you might, again, I'm a big believer
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+[30:03] in, you know, it might not be as good as juniper at being juniper, but it might be very good at being what it is, the eastern red
+
+[30:11] cedar. Do you know what I'm saying, Stas? anyway. So give it a try. It's not going to poison you. However, I've read some sources that say it's mildly toxic, but again, it's been used for a long time. It was in my herbal book. It was in, it's in a bunch of the references I've read. I wouldn't eat a whole boatload of them. And there are juniper species out there that are toxic to a greater or lesser degree. So make sure you have your identification, right? Don't eat boatloads of it. And maybe try to find an application where it tastes as good or better than the regular juniter for what you're trying to use it for. There's a great article in 2000, I think. somewhere between 2006 and 2009, in the New York Times, in the gardening section. You can find it on the internet about juniper and which junipers to use and so on and so forth. Right? You like that? Okay. Now, uh, Philippe, uh, let me see, get his 1st name. I dont know. Well, let me get his last name. Anyway, Philippe writes in a question about knives. He's been contemplating picking up Michelle Bras, which is the famous French chef from where is he
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+[31:22] from? Albrach or something like that. Michelle Bras, Shun Knife for years now. I've read many reviews, and they are split half and half. I'm worried about the platinum oxide coating on the blades. titanium oxide, actually, I believe. platinum. titanium oxide. Titanium oxide coating on the blade. Do you have one and does it scratch easily? Thanks so much. Okay. Titanium, okay, 1st of all, Shun, a.k.a. Kershaw, has a bunch of lines of knives out that are associated with celebrities of one type or another.
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+[31:53] So they have Alton Brown knives. have a funky angle because Alton Brown is tall and he can't cut properly with a regular knife because the angle is bad. So he says, I can't use the Alton Brown knives, but I'm not that tall. Maybe Mark has Mark tried those? Mark's tall, man. He's never tried one of those knives? You should try them. I'd be interested to know whether or not a tall person, whether it's actually helpful for them. That's an interesting fact for me. I could probably get him one. anyway. Ken Onion, a famous knife designer, also made one, a knife for those guys. It completely non-traditional chef's knife has a very curved belly. So you rock it as you cut it and it's got like a kind of a strange ergonomic handle on it. Chef Andre Soltner, international old school badass, enjoys that knife. He actually uses it. And then they did a line with Michelle Bras. Michelle Bras, his knife. Michelle Bross is all about aesthetics, and so the knife is really pretty, right? So it's kind of a matte kind of like a like gun metal gray color and it's got a titanium oxide coating on it. Titanium, the metal is not very hard. It's tough as hell, and it doesn't ever, it basically won't rust. But it's not that hard. Titanium oxide on the other hand, I believe, is quite hard. It's used as a coating for drills for high-speed drills and things of that nature. So I'm pretty sure that it's kind of a baller coating to put on the outside, right? The knife itself has 2 different grades of stainless steel as softer stainless steel on the outside for toughness and a harder stainless steel in the center for the edge. Um, so, so it should be okay. I mean, I don't know if it's worth a huge price tag. I don't think it's going to cut appreciably better than the less expensive, uh, Kershaw slash, uh,
+
+[33:29] Shunn Nyas because I don't think the blade chemistry itself is any different. It might be balanced better. It might be made better. It definitely looks better than those other ones, but I don't know if it's actually going to cut
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+[33:39] better. The, um, the other interesting thing about it is that it's, uh, unlike a lot of Japanese Western knives. I read on their website. actually, I went on the website. It's sharpened with a 50-50 bevel, meaning it's sharpened the same way on either side, like a traditional French or German knife, which means it should be fairly easy for someone who's used to European knives to sharpen it.
+
+[33:59] It sharpened 15 degrees on each side. So it's not, it's fairly, it's a fairly sharp, fairly sharp blade. I've read some reports on the internet saying that they are well, very well balanced blades and that they handle quite well. Now I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant. A lot of people worry about the sharpness of their knives and they buy the most, you know, the best steel, the best
+
+[34:23] disk, the best dats, ceramic knives, all this other stuff. And, you know, in the words of Jeffrey Steingard, which I think I've quoted here several times, you know, knives are like puppies.
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+[34:34] They're always good when they're new. It's only later that the problems come out. And I think the main thing about a knife is how easy is it to sharpen, how fast is it for you to sharpen, and how well can you resharpen it? And I know I've talked about sharpening here a bunch, but I'll say something I don't think I've said before, which
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+[34:49] is I would prefer steel that isn't quite as badass that sharpens really well and just sharpen the dang thing more often, right? A lesser quality read softer steel that you sharpen right before you use it is going to do a much better job in general than the super hard, high quality powdered centered steel that you
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+[35:11] buy and then have it sharpened in 4 months. I mean, that's just truth. What do you think? Don't talk nostalgia. She takes people's knives and beats them about their head. She's a strange lady and stash him. Yes or no? What? I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, yeah? Okay. We'll talk about later. Okay. Uh, and thanks for answering, basically, thanks for answering my liver question a few weeks back. You're welcome. And then one more question. My chef asked me to turn some already old blanched cauliflower into a puree. I was hesitant. So I popped the florets into a small pot and covered with half and half, and then with a paper lid. I slowly simmered the cauliflower until it's tender, but the weird side effect was that a lot of the cauliflower turned brown as if it were
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+[35:53] caramelized or, you know, myard. Uh, uh, no, it didn't taste good uh, even in the 1st place. Do you know what happened? It's interesting. First of all, I did some bunch of research this morning on cauliflower. looks like we'll have to wrap up with this, but I did a bunch of research on cauliflower. And did you know that in the biz, they don't call cauliflower florets florets, they call it curd? weird. Because I guess because it looks like, you know, like cheese curd, I guess. weird, right? Cauliflower, by the way, your kid's favorite. Oh my god, my kids. I swear to God, you know what? I love cauliflower. And I was like, there's no one on earth that doesn't, unless you're vegan that doesn't like cauliflower drenched in a cheese sauce, right?
+
+[36:31] I mean, it's just it's just good. good stuff, right? And so, and you know, my kids for a long time, have I already talked about this? My kids, for a long time, wouldn't eat green vegetables, really, of any sort. By a long time, I mean still. They don't like re vegetables. It's one of these demented things that's put in their head by the by, I don't know, by other kids. It, one of these like weird things. It's perpetuated generation after generation. I loved green vegetables growing up. Anyway, that's me. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go get cauliflower. It's not green. I'm going to drench it in cheese sauce. Everyone freaking loves cheese sauce. And it was the worst dinner I've ever had in my life. The worst experience of the cauliflower is delicious. It was the worst experience of a meal I have ever had in my entire
+
+[37:15] life. The screaming, the moaning, the pleating, the crying,
+
+[37:20] and ever since that, that day. All I've ever had to, uh, say is threaten my kids with cauliflower for dinner and they're quiet. Call the sardines thing. Oh, my Booker loves sardines. They like some weird stuff. It's like, look, it's all it's all mental. No, no, and you feel the sardine, kid. Oh, I fill the sardine can, gave it to my son, Booker, who loves sardines, and I filled it with cauliflower, and he opened it up. He's like, ah, ah, ah, like I had, like, I don't know, some sort of like, uh, I don't know, toxic, toxic, something like that. Anywho. So, uh, turns out that cauliflower, like all other, uh, you know, you know, kind of
+
+[38:00] brasica style things like cabbages, like, uh, broccoli, like, um, Brussels sprouts, uh, contain a lot of sulfur containing compounds.
+
+[38:09] And so when you, you know, and sulfur, the chemistry of these sulfur compounds in food is extremely complicated. And as you cook these things for a long time, various things happen. They get stinky, right? Then they get old, then you have lipid oxidation, and then it turns
+
+[38:24] out sometimes I guess they can change colors. I couldn't find, I didn't have time to run it down, and since McGee is still in China, I guarantee you McGee knows right off the top of his head exactly what's going on, but since he's in China, I can't call him to get that information out of his
+
+[38:38] head. Um, but, uh, you know, some of the stuff that's in it, I was thinking about,
+
+[38:44] there's a couple articles like the non-enzymatic browning of cauliflower in storage. And one of the culprits might be these kind of polyphenols that are in it that can react with
+
+[38:54] iron. I'm wondering if you had any sort of, uh, if you were using a steel pot, it's possible that maybe the steel in the pot had something to do with
+
+[39:02] it. Um, in which case, if it is something like that, like non-enzymatic browning, it's happening or some sort of weird mired reaction, maybe in conjunction with the half and half that you used, a little ascorbic acid might make it
+
+[39:14] better. But there's all sorts of very complicated sulfur breakdown
+
+[39:19] components in cauliflower that can change over time, get stinkier over time. It's a known fact. You might want to look for reference to some articles like the volatile constituents from
+
+[39:31] Roman Esco cauliflower, the glucose innolate and free sugar content in cauliflower, and the
+
+[39:39] non-ensmetic browning of cauliflower on storage. But I haven't found, you know, 100%, you know, ironclad reason why it would happen. The more I read, the more complicated cauliflower turns out. Just don't serve it to my kids. All right, and before we leave, today's show is sponsored by Modernist
+
+[39:55] Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed for application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for
+
+[40:10] the home cook and enthusiast, and most cost only around 5 bucks, saving you time,
+
+[40:15] money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers, or even meat glue. You'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Minus pantry carries crisp coat UC, a modified starch that can be used in batters and breading to give fried foods an extra crispy crust.
+
+[40:40] I like that word, extra crispy crust. Fans of cooking issues have placed in order of $25 or more before next week's show. We'll get a free package of crisp coat to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 77 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com for all of your cooking needs of the modernist nature. And that's been cooking issues. Come back next week.
+
+[41:07] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this
+
+[41:19] corner network. And you can find all of our... Don't know where I'm at. You can find all of our... I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fish and vodka.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live to the Cosmos from the backyard at Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:14] Vicious fish vodka. Oh, you did that. Got me on this corner. And I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. And I guess can't get it straight. Fishes, fish and vodka. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly
+
+[1:03] 12, to roughly 1245. Going to be joined today in the studio with Maxine Bellay, co-author of Modernist Cuisine
+
+[1:11] Cookbook. Also, oh, here he is. He's coming through right now. I see him. So I'll wait to introduce him. We're also here with Dave. Hey, Dan, what's your last name? Goodyear from the New Yorker. She's just hanging out, but she's welcome to chime in anytime she wants. Yeah, put it on a pair of headphones. This one's for you. Right? And as usual, we're joined with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, who's sitting typing on
+
+[1:31] our computer, getting stuff done for the cooking issues machine. Am I right? Yeah? Berlin. Berlin? Yeah. So, uh, hey, Maxine. Here. Pull up a seat, here's your microphone. and your headphones. So, Maxine, I'm doing well. doing well. Maxine, you were a graduate of what, Vice? Originally our arch nemesis, the FCI, is that true? Indeed, ISO. Yeah. Very brief since it ice. Yeah, that's our arch nemesis. But then moved to what anyone who was hanging around in New York in, I guess, the late 90s, early 2000s, Jack's Oyster Bar, right? Fantastic place. didn't you work there? I did. I did. I actually went to Jack's Luxury Stagier directly from Ice. The chef left about 2 weeks later, and Jack Lamb, crazy as he is, gave me the head chef job. So it was quite a transition for young chef. But a great, I mean, you know, I went, I think, once, but it moved across the street, right? I went when I went when it was on its original side of the street. I think once when it was across the street. Yeah, I was there when it was still the little carriage house and then it moved to the old
+
+[2:35] Machimona space. What was that, on 5th Street? on 5th Street. Yeah. Anyway, fabulous place, great pedigree. When moved from there to the fat duck? You know, the Heston Blumenthal's famous joint, right? Indeed. And you were on the restaurant side or the development side, development side? I began on the restaurant side and then they quickly moved me to the development side. That was my, you know, my calling, all of the research and the, you know, great dishes that
+
+[2:59] Hessen would push us to create. And then we're was tapped by Nathan Miravold to, you know, be a part of the modernist cuisine dream team. And so, you know, the 3 authors on the book, of course, Nathan, who's been on the show before, Nathan
+
+[3:14] Mirovold, Chris Young, good friend of ours, been on the show before, and Maxine for the 1st time on the show. Well, welcome. It's so nice to be here Thanks for having me. And Dana, who, again, may or may not chime in. I don't know. Welcome to is writing an article on Strange Meats. true or false? true. True. All right. very good. So listen, call all of your questions in two, uh, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. So how you doing? Maxine was at our bar the other day. I loved it. Oh my god. You were right. The basil cocktail that you, it's delicious. So fragrance. Thanks. I appreciate it. It's a technique we do at Booker and Dax. which basically we just lost, by the way, best new bar, time out in New York too, a Maison premiere, but it's good to lose to such a great bar. Maison premiere. Anyway, a technique where we smash the Thai basil with liquid nitrogen, and what happens is when it's
+
+[4:06] frozen, that deeply in liquid nitrogen, there's no sort of enzymatic degradation of the herb at all, and we can shatter it into super, super fine particles, even just using a hand muddler, then add liquor directly that prevents the enzymes because
+
+[4:21] the enzymes can't really work in type of liquor. That beautiful extraction. Yeah, it's like, the liquor sex is straight out. And then lime juice, the ascorbic acid further prevents breakdown via
+
+[4:32] advance, and then shake it like a normal daiquiri from there or not. But I like it. a good. And the color is beautiful, but the just the aroma is just, yeah. Spectacular. So before I get into questions, and I hate to do this to you. everyone always asks every, you know, this is the question. I have to ask you, and if I don't ask you, someone will get upset at me. By all means. So what's next on your plate? Well, right now we're, really, it's been the book tour. It's been an incredible journey, you know, just sharing, teaching, you know, every different technique and all the aesthetics that we that went into creating modern cuisine. We're able to share on so many levels. It's just so much information. And by having this book tour, we're able to sort of unravel it and look at the different aspects that went into its
+
+[5:18] making. But going forward, we've had many propositions and we're not totally clear exactly what the next phase
+
+[5:27] is. We have a little project in the works that will come out soon.
+
+[5:34] That's kind of exciting. But that's just, that's, I'm going to give you a teaser on that one and... Not allowed to tell me any more
+
+[5:40] specifics? All right. Maybe, you know, at AV, they make you send giant NDAs and... Intellectual ventures. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, so I am bounds by... All right, all right. Well, just, you know, dropping it there that there is something coming. We just don't know what it is. Thanks for making me curious now and not giving me anything. Maybe off air. My full intention. Yeah, well, you know, by the way, in case you have randomly tuned to this podcast. and don't know what modernist cuisine is. It is probably... the single kind of greatest cookbook publishing phenomenon of all
+
+[6:16] times. Probably, I would have to say, of all times. Well, that's very flattering. Yeah. Next to me, look, like, for instance, right? Apicius is the only book on Roman cookery. It's not that it's a great book, but it's the only book. Right now, we have a huge, a huge output of cookbooks and food related books, and yet nothing that has ever been
+
+[6:34] attempted, much less successfully produced on this scale. It's amazing. I mean, uh, uh, anyway, Astounding Book. Uh, you know, and the thing is, is that even though I guess the going Amazon price
+
+[6:48] is, what, about 450 now? Yeah, you know, it's, yeah, yeah, about 400. Yeah. So it's not an inexpensive book, but as Nathan is fond of pointing
+
+[6:57] out, a lot of paper in that book. A lot of paper and very good investment per, you know, the amount of information you're getting.
+
+[7:03] I mean, if you, if you think about it, it's 5 volumes, you break it down, it's, uh, and the
+
+[7:09] amount of work that went into it. I think it's, you know, as a young chef, as a, as a, as a passion foodie, whatever you want to call, you know, yourself, it's, I think it's a very good investment for
+
+[7:19] your, your, your future creative culinary adventures. It's less than half the price per book of the of the Abouly books, for instance, if you're going to compare. Yeah, exactly. If you want to comparison. That's the ref. Yeah, and what's what's funny about it, not to speak on such venal terms about it,
+
+[7:36] but, you know, everyone's wondering, well, you know, Nathan, who has an unbelievable amount of
+
+[7:41] money and a certain amount of money, really, when you think about it, he's a rich man. Yeah, very well for himself, and he's worked hard for this. Well, I'm not saying anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a lot of mean. you know, multi-billionaire. But, uh, everyone was like, well, you know, this is kind of, uh, one of the criticisms you hear is
+
+[7:57] that it's just because he has a lot of money. He's never going to make the money back. But in fact, the book is good enough. It's making the money back. It's actually becoming on the edge of profitable. And that was never the intention, but, you know, the, I mean, we thought we would sell 2000 copies maybe, and now we're almost at 30,000 copies. And at that price point, yeah,
+
+[8:16] we're, we're recuperating the, you know, the investment that was made. And that's, that's amazing. I mean, the fact that it's actually going to be a profitable book, I
+
+[8:26] think, is the greatest sign of, I mean, look, success. I mean, success in terms of kind of the impact that it's going to make in the world, the fact that something can be at that cost can have that much money dumped into its production,
+
+[8:37] right? Which Nathan will never divulge what the actual number is, but we know it's a lot. Because, I mean, at minimum,
+
+[8:44] you at bare minimum, you had at least 15, you know, very, very qualified people working full-time for how many years plus then a lot more
+
+[8:52] for. At least 3.5 you had a full team. And then and then a lot more than the 15 for a big chunk of that time. For the final year push when we really had to get everything together. It was almost 40, you know, including all the Ghost Riders and the copy editors and it was it was a pretty, you know, massive team of experts in, you know,
+
+[9:10] in what they did. Yeah, and so the, yeah, and so for something of that magnitude to be able to break even, just, I think, goes to show kind of how ripe the time was for this information, the need for the book, and
+
+[9:23] also, you know, it's just, I think it's an interesting measure. when it's often not talked about, actually, in the when people talk about the book, they don't talk about that aspect of it. Absolutely. No, and I'm glad you bring that up because it was in terms of timing and and people being, you know, open to what this means, you know, that that
+
+[9:41] that merging of art and science, which is a beautiful thing. And it's something that, you know, a lot of classic traditionalists, you know, wanting to reject. And at the same time, when you embrace it, you realize that each really enhances the other. And it's such a clean, beautiful relationship that it's, yeah, it was primed for that and people are responding that way. And so that's a testament to the progress we've made
+
+[10:10] with we're looking at the different roles of food. And something else, I think, I might have commented on this show about it before. I'm not sure. I can't remember. If you haven't seen the book at all. One of the interesting things about it is, and this is something I hadn't expected before I was able to see it, is kind of how personal it is. It's not, uh, in other words, it's not, uh, it's not
+
+[10:31] the encyclopedia Britannica. It's not a cold textbook. No, no, but by no means. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of personal feelings, personal, I mean, it's... There's, I mean, there's, yeah, a lot of personal aspects. Yeah, I mean, it's a great book. Anyway, so we have a we have a question on the book, someone who read, actually, from
+
+[10:49] Zeimerji, the blog, I guess, had a question regarding the
+
+[10:54] Spaetzel recipe in the book. And I'll read it, even though it's addressed to me, I'll read it to you, and so you're going to know a lot more about it than I do.
+
+[11:00] Uh, I've attempted uh, the modernist cuisine, sour cream, schpetzel, uh, recipe twice now with less than desirable results. So you're going to troubleshoot this. Okay, yeah, let's fix this one. All right. The issues are that they will not form into a shape. The 1st time I attempted them, they basically dissolved into the ice water. The 2nd time I received a new batch of Activa YG. By the way, that's meat meat glue. It's actually like a protein bonder. YG is the one that's made for dairy and protein stuff. made the recipe and split the batch into. I then used a before we go on, why don't you describe the recipe 1st so that people know what we're talking about. Yeah, so this is actually a recipe inspired by Alex Naki from IDs and food. And uh, we really, uh, as part of our, um, uh, beef
+
+[11:44] uh, uh, cheek uh, goulash. We wanted to have a modernist special component. And so that was the basis for creating the recipe. And it's a combination of, I think it's cream. I have to look at the recipe in front of me to be fully aware of. All right, but yeah. But basically, it's a dairy-based spetzel, where we're using the binding properties of
+
+[12:09] Activ YG. We also use an additional element of protein. that we use albumen in there. And what you create is these very fluffy little dumplings that after being sets with that enzymatic process, then are nicely toasted in brown butter and served as a garnish for
+
+[12:31] this, for this, you know, very unctuous 72 hour beef cheek. All right. And so the proteins in it, egg proteins, I guess, egg white proteins, and also... The dairy proteins. The dairy
+
+[12:43] proteins are being bound together with an enzyme, transgutamination, meat glue, set, and then potion, then
+
+[12:50] toasted, or... Well, they're actually, they're never actually poached. What we do is we sieve them after they've, once the
+
+[12:57] enzymatic press has begun, We sieve them into, um, through the, uh,
+
+[13:03] spetsla maker into uh, ice water and you get these nice little dumpling shapes. And then you give him a final fry to really give him that textual contrast. So the 1st time that red made them, it dissolved into the ice water. The 2nd time, received a new batch of the Activa, YG made them and split the batch in two, used one quarter of the batch as directed with the same results, let the other half set in the fridge for 24 hours, thinking that it needed time to set up. That was also not the answer. By the way, protein gel made with Activa, once set, if it's broken, it's broken, it's not broken. You're breaking a jello. So that, yes. So as pointed out, that was not the answer because that won't work. The last quarter of the batch went into the freezer, another failure. I can test it. following the recipe to the letter, but cannot seem to get this one down. I'm not sure if you know the formulation or not, but anything that you could add would be helpful. Gelatin, water, sour cream, ricotta, whey protein, isolate. Why? there's gelatin in it too. There's gelatin yeah yeah. give a maximum amount of protein capacity. How come you don't do a, you know, um, how come you? Oh, the cold water then sets the gelatin and then the gelatin's cross-linked by the YG. So I would bet that they're not. I would bet that you're not they're not waiting long enough for the gelatin to get syrupy. That's right That's a good that's a very good point. When you have your base mixture, letting the gelatin
+
+[14:19] hydrates, you know, at least, I mean, doing that over an ice water bath until it gets that syrupy
+
+[14:26] consistency, and then setting it directly into the ice water is one of the tricks. Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of people, like, for me, like, uh, one of the great meat glue applications involving gelatin is my brother-in-law, Wiley Dufrene's, uh, veg noodles and, like,
+
+[14:42] quinoa chips. And a lot of people have trouble duplicating that recipe. And I think 99% of the time, it's because they're not getting the gelatin, uh, hydration. Yeah, I mean, one of the sad, not sad. One of the interesting things about a lot of these, a lot of these techniques is they really do require, sometimes it is helpful to see people do
+
+[15:04] it, because there's a lot of like the hand in it. I know that, you know, like, um, why they also used to do very kind of a well-known in in WD50, a well-known recipe where he would take, uh, carrot and cardamom, uh, I think it was
+
+[15:18] carrot. carrot, whatever, carrot. And then he would freeze it, uh, and dip it in a mixture of, uh, a
+
+[15:24] kappa carrot game and locust being gone to make his egg yolk. They make the yolk with the egg with the egg whites. Yeah, the egg white was a coconut coconut, like LBG. Yeah, yeah. Very famous WD50 dish. Which we have in the book. Really? Oh, cool. But the truth is it's actually a very difficult recipe, if you've never done it before, it takes a lot of practice to get those egg yolks to work
+
+[15:52] properly. And when you're 1st doing it, you'll get like one in 8 will work. You know what I mean? And then by the time, you know, you've been doing service every day for
+
+[16:01] a month, you lose one in 20. Do you know what I mean? But there was always like the one cook in the kitchen who their job was to do all 60 of those every day, get them plated, get them
+
+[16:14] away, and, you know, they had the magic touch, but it really comes from practice. So a lot of these things take some practice. Exactly. It's a huge amount of practice. And feel and, you know, exactly. So listen, calling your questions too. 718-4972128. That's 718-4972128. going to go to commercial break. Be right back with Maxine Belay. Cooking your shoes. All right.
+
+[17:14] Booker team, the MG's nice. Coming back with cooking issues, Maxine Belay, caller. are on the air. All right, yeah, hi, Dave. Thanks. Um, I don't know how relevant my question is to your um,
+
+[17:29] modernest show today, but um, I'm charged with making some dairy-free mashed potatoes for this weekend. And um, I've seen some recipes online that basically call up for like chicken broth. There's some milk substitute like soy milk or almond milk to, uh,
+
+[17:44] simulate the creaminess like that, that dairy would, to mashed potatoes. I was wondering if you had any um, alternative suggestions. How long do you have from now? How I'm sorry, how long do I have? Yeah, how long do you have to get the recipe together from today? Um, I mean, I'm making them Friday night. What do you think, Maxine? I would go for like an emulsion. I would do like a vegetable. I mean, if you really want the creaminess, you have to have some vegetable, like, yeah, vegetable oil base, and I'm not sure what starch you would use. I mean, or, you know, if you were going to do... I mean, you can almost get like a mixture of gum Arabic and Xanthan, like the tickledoid that we use. And you could do like
+
+[18:23] an, like a very heavy oil water emulsion. That'll hold as it dilutes, or as it's mixed with a solid, and you could get some of that, you'll get some of that creaminess. then you can just choose a delicious oil. I wonder if you could do a slurry of the, like, the potato flakes, hydrate them just a little bit, and then blend in
+
+[18:43] the, like, a vegetable oil and make that your fat base. I'm just, I'm a little worried that if you don't pre-emulsify that it might break. It could, but the amount, it depends on the ratio. If you're doing, like, the Robuchon were, like, very high, 50%, yeah, 50% fat. But if you want the unctuousness, I mean, you know, even 15, 20% fat, I think the amount of starch that you already have in the potato will act as
+
+[19:07] a pretty good emulsifier for a vegetable oil base. Have you tried just a vegetable oil base yet? I really haven't even played around with it that much. I've just kind of started looking into it right now. All right, well, 1st I would go bonehead simple, like we said, and just, you know, make mashed potatoes and
+
+[19:22] beat some, you know, put oil into it. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. obviously. Put it through like a, I mean, like, yeah, yeah, don't turn it to glue. No, please, no chewing gum mashed potatoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after that, my next step would be to move into, uh,
+
+[19:40] uh, my next step would be to move into something like, um, like a take a look, like a
+
+[19:45] Xantham gum Arabic mix. Hey, what about like... It does have to be dairy free and completely
+
+[19:51] like, what about eggs? combined with like an egg yolk and then... And then the last 2nd you, like, it's not a style where you just get that richness. You know, just no dairy, basically. I think, you know, yeah, you could go like old school, like almost using the egg yolk, like super thick, but like, like, yolk instead of the gum Arabic and anthem just
+
+[20:11] to... As your multiplier, yeah, absolutely. Because it's going to add some of the emulsifiers that you would not. You're basically making a mayonnaise and folding it. I mean, it's the it's exactly that. Yeah, I think if you're allowed to use egg, but just make sure you don't get the temperature too high again. Exactly. You know, do you have access to a circulator? Wait, yeah, wait till the potatoes cool off a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, do you have a circulator or no? No, no, I'm pretty much working. I live in Brooklyn in this town. I dont even have a kitchen. I just kind of... If you just get a $7, $8 digital thermometer, you check the temperature of your potatoes, right when you, you know, before you want to serve
+
+[20:44] them and then you fold that in to give it that, you know, just that, that, that folding, you know, technique. I think that would be great. Yeah, but just do it the last minute. Exactly. If you have a circulator, you can cheat and spread it out in a ziploc and go, but yeah, but just wait till the last minute. Yeah, last minute. And and if you... potatoes, season them up, you know, keep them, you know, starchy, whatever they are, and
+
+[21:05] then hold that in at the very end. Yeah, and use a riicers or potato milk to have your potato base and then the last 2nd you fold it in with the right ratio. And that's something where you just keep on adding in just to get the right mouth feel and you just have to keep on tasting for that. Another cool thing that we love to do for to increase the potato flavor as well. If you're using oil, that's a great medium for that. You can take the skins from the potatoes, the potato peels, obviously, that you've taken away
+
+[21:31] from your... Exactly. And fry them in oil beforehand that you're going to use for your mayonnaise. So they have a beautiful, deep, nutty flavor, and then strain that, cool that down, make your mayonnaise like that, and then you'd have a really intensely
+
+[21:44] flavored and creamy mashed potato. Cool. That sounds great. What kind of frying on that? Like, like deep frying or just kind of like? Just in a pen, you know, and you have your skins in there and you wait until they get sort of, you know, crisped and golden. You don't want to burn them. You don't want to get any bitter flavors, but just until you extract all. Exactly. You're just extracting the some of those really beautiful flavors. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Good luck. Let us know how it works out. Absolutely. Do we still... Yeah I will. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, do we still have another caller? All right, caller, you are on the air. Yeah, hello. Hi. Ooh, you got an echo. Yeah. Okay. Hold on a second. Is that any better? No, we'll deal with it. Um, so, uh, I'm a current student at
+
+[22:33] SEI actually, and I had a question kind of related to something I'm trying to do for my menu project.
+
+[22:38] Okay. Uh, and so, um, 2 questions. I need both to create food and uh, large
+
+[22:46] sheets and also I'm asking about uh, edible threads if you know of anything. Wait, large sheets of what? Yeah, what was the? Yeah, okay. So, um, for example, I mean, one of the things I'm trying to use is uh, Yuba, which is easy enough to get into a large sheet, but I was also thinking about using transglutamase uh, to bind thin sheets, thin slices of meat into large
+
+[23:08] sheets. Yes, sure. Are you familiar with Shibori? No, is that Japanese uh resist dying technique, like a very badass form of tie-dye, basically. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Uh, and so the idea is to... Is it still screening or is it? Is it silk screening or is it? So, yeah. Cleaning. I not sure. Uh, no, no. I guess so, my idea is, um, taking, uh, foods and binding them using these resist techniques, we actually weave thread into the fabric and then pull it tight and bunch it in different
+
+[23:49] designs, and then you diet and where the fabric is pulled tight. It was just the dying. So the idea is to buying food, and then it would then resist different cooking methods through the different courses, either by taking, like a sheet of sashimi, binding it very carefully, and bunching it, and then soaking it in a, like, ceviche
+
+[24:08] bait so that it, the bound portions resist the acid, they aren't exposed to the acid, and so some of it comes out as sort of a ceviche cure, and then some of it comes out towards the sashimi, for
+
+[24:20] example. Okay. Looking for an edible thread that is fine enough to do that sort of work, uh, with something as delicate as fish, but it is still edible. How strong? How strong? Scallion, scallion comes to mind as the classic thread. Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean? Like long pieces that are then, you know, lightly blanched. I mean, that's the classic, you know, thing like that that works. I mean, I'm sure there's others. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you can, you can do starch space ones. I mean, that would be consist of making starched paper based on like maybe a really good prehydrated tapioca starch. You make a leather, maybe a little bit of oil so that it breaks down in your
+
+[25:07] mouth more easily. And I think I think that might be, I don't know, but then it might hydrate. At the end of a tough time when it's in contact with the with the fish. Yeah, yeah, my hydrate. Okay, so you need something waterproof, right? Which means that you're dealing with, I mean, that right there is a problem. So now you're basically down to long, long scale plant fibers. Yeah, absolutely. Or you could do a gluten base, actually. Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. you make that strong enough? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we've done it with pasta. We done it where if you do, if you cut them just fine enough, you could do a very fresh pasta enrich with, with about, depending on the flour using 5 to 7% vital wheat
+
+[25:48] gluten, and Bob's red meat is a really good brand. And you could get you could get a very, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, elastic, um, thread that would be, you know, very workable, but also break down as you chew very easily. Can you hit it with RM to make it even tougher? We've done that for the for buckwheat because there was you had the protein content, but we didn't have enough of, of
+
+[26:13] the, the, the, the, the starch. So, yeah. Yeah, exactly. work very well with the meat course too. Have you guys heard of, uh, was it, um, collagen
+
+[26:26] thread? Oh, yeah. It doesn't break down so nicely though. Yeah, in the mouth feels not so nice. Yeah. I mean, obviously like, well, think about it this way. I mean, collagen on the outsides doesn't break down as nicely as like intestine, for instance. Uh, tripe would be cool. That would be cool. That would work. Yeah. You know? Honeycomb tripe is an amazing, yeah. Yeah, or like long, like carefully cut pieces of sausage casing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And as for gluing sheets, it's no problem. That's no problem. stuff's meant to do it. Here's my one recommend recommendation. The only time I've ever had meat glue provide an off-flavor in a dish that I've done was when I glued a, I glued many, many layers of different colored fish together and then vacuued
+
+[27:16] them together. Well, no, but yeah, but so the 1st time I did it, I overmeak glued it and I vacuumed it and I let it cure in the vacuum bag. And then I had, I perceived a flavor that, and I, but so the 2nd time I did it, I used a much less amount of meat
+
+[27:29] glue, vacuumed it, and then before, like right after I crushed it into shape. I cut the bag open and then it could air out in the fridge while it was
+
+[27:38] setting and then, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like that flavor come off. Yeah. When you, especially with fish, um, when I am butchering before you put the sheets together, would you cut
+
+[27:49] them across like you're doing for sashimi or along the grain to kind of provide stability? Any like thin, beautiful sheet of fish is going to be absurdly delicate. No matter how you do it. Unless you're literally cutting unless you're literally cutting in a big piece and then preserving the sinew along the cut, which is
+
+[28:09] possible. Like, you know, we've done tuna sinews delicious, you know, uh, but you're going to be tough getting big pieces. That stuff you could you could hit somebody in the face with, it won't break. But, yeah, if you were to, if you were to like partially cure the meat, um, then you might have. Yeah, I mean, if you give it, not cure. I would actually do it, Brian, but if you were to do like a 3.5 salts percentage, you know, to water, 2% sugar brine, you might be able to get a little bit more elasticity
+
+[28:39] and, I think, structure to the fish. Yeah, I mean, the best way to slice, unless you're going to do some sort of special slicing is to parfreeze it. Don freeze it all the way. Just get it parfreeze, throw it on like a very high quality meat slicer, and go directly in between sheets of wax
+
+[28:56] paper and then keep them almost frozen until you're about to use them because once those things stall out, good night. Was the trans glutamase still work while it's frozen? or would you apply frozen if it thaws that would activate? No, no, it needs a thaw. needs a thaw in order for this. What you do is, is, because so when we, you know, when I was doing it, I would take
+
+[29:15] the, the, you know, fairly stiff but not fully frozen sheets, I would layer them. Uh, and then as soon as the salt and the sugar from the cure hits them, they melt out and then you have a block, but then you don't lift them
+
+[29:27] again, that's it. You know what I mean? They're done. Yeah. You know. Excellent. Thank you very much. And if you want to see a video. I have a video on cooking issues on the blog, I think, or linked to from a Star
+
+[29:41] Chef's video I did where I did Moko Megane, which is the Japanese metalworking kind of, you know, technique, and you can see the kind of in practice, like thin sheets of fish glued together.
+
+[29:51] It's not what you want to do, but might give you some visual pointers on how to handle the products. Yeah, excellent. I'm really curious to see how you're, you know, this all comes together. This is send us some photos. I will definitely send you guys some photos. I have a friend who does a lot of food photography who's very interested also who wants to and document it. So I will definitely send you guys something. Awesome. Cool. and stuff. yeah Excellent. Thank you very much for talking with me today. Thank you. So do we have any more colors or should we take some email stuff? Let's do some emails, I think. All right. Do some emails. Yeah, I heard there was someone that I heard that, which means we lost them. Okay, let's see, we went. I'm probably, you know, it's nice that we're getting some calls, which means I probably won't get to all of the email questions. Anything that I miss this week. I will try to get next week. Michael writes in about nutmeg. Here's a question. I recently ordered a set of food grade essential oils from, I'll tell you, which is Mandy Aftel. You work with her over there? She's like, we haven't worked with NFC that works with Daniel Patterson for a while, and then that's... Yeah, and she's good buddies with Harold
+
+[30:55] McGee, and yeah. And so she has, she's basically a perfumer out of San Francisco or thereabouts Bay Area. And she does a lot of interesting stuff and she actually has a line in William Snowman now that just launched, but I haven't seen it because I haven't been to William Snowman like how
+
+[31:07] long? I just don't go. You know what I mean? I'm forbidden to buy kitchen equipment, people, by the way. Like, literally, if I brought another anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? I mean, anyway. Uh, so originally ordered a set of food grade essential oils from uh, Avtelier, uh, fun stuff, especially for those of us that don't have a road of app. Although Rotovap doesn't make essential oils. Just be clear on this. Rotovap does distillation, but not the steam distillation that is what happens when you're making essential. kind of a different piece of equipment. I don't do steam desolation because I don't have a rig for it. Anyway, you guys have the baller roto that. huge one. You know what? Come hang out. You know what? The thing is, is like, I say like, anything I ever negative, I would ever say about these guys is strictly due to jealousy, just straight
+
+[31:48] up jealousy. All right. Okay, so one of the items in my set is nutmeg, essential oil. I seen remember from reading Solon Ice, which is, I guess, Eldridge Cleaver's book, that
+
+[31:58] nutmeg was a popular prison hallucinogen with horrible side effects. So now I'm a little scared to use this stuff. Is there a chance that the hallucinogen is concentrated, or conversely, a reason to believe it was left behind, uh, left
+
+[32:08] behind, other one other is not in the oil, uh, to make sure it's completely safe? Okay, look, the compound, there's several possible psychoactive compounds in nutmeg. One of them is Maristasin is the kind of famous one. Parsley seed oil, has a lot of it. And if you go to Arowid, which is like the place where kind of thinking druggies go to put down their kind of mental thoughts on
+
+[32:30] this is where I go. Most of those people aren't using nutmeg. They're using parsley seed oil, which has a high concentration of this in various capsules. Listen, uh, that compound, uh, Maristasin is uh, is aromatic and it's actually characteristic of nutmeg. So there is no way that you making a dish that you enjoy the taste
+
+[32:53] of, are going to get poisoned. The levels would be ridiculous, yeah. Yeah, people who, people who typically, to get hallucinatory effect out of it, people will do things like grate a whole nutmeg or two. And then, uh, kind of like somehow choke it down and it's described as the most vile thing that they've ever done in their lives. And then like three, you know, hours later, they start feeling some sort of psychoactive effects. This is not something that you would accidentally do. Uh, you know, I mean, could you take that oil, uh, pack it into gel caps, uh, pound it and do yourself harm? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the problems with nutmeg is that, uh,
+
+[33:36] so, you know, psychoactive uh, substances are kind of the, you know, the thing with them is, is there, there are certain psychoactive substances that, uh, that the danger level is fairly close to the psychoactive level, and I think nutmeg is closer than many in that kind of spectrum, which is kind of where the bad kind of, uh, you know, rep comes
+
+[33:57] from, because, you know, if you eat, uh, one grated nutmeg, you're, you know, you won't die, but if you eat like
+
+[34:04] three, like there might be renal failure or something like that. So it's like, and, you know, an order of a 3 is not a safety level that most druggies would be happy with. you know, between activity and death. Like, it's not a happy number. Like an order of magnitude is a more friendly kind of a number. But anyways, don't worry about it. Like, what I'm saying is don't worry about it. A little grating here and there. Also, apparently, uh, and again, from Arowid, uh, the stuff degrades over time, similar to Thujon, which we're going to talk about in a minute with Absinthe, and, uh, in other words, so if you use nutmeg that's old, it's lost some of its principle.
+
+[34:41] So, you know, even if you somehow are able to, you know, choke down, you know, that jar of
+
+[34:47] McCormick ground nutmeg that's in your grocery store. Yeah, it's mostly gone and you probably not that I not that I recommend it. So don't don't worry. Don't worry, right? Absolutely. Don't worry. might as well do this on a on a similar one. We have in from Tom Fisher and Lansdowne PA, longtime listener. First of all, he has a centrifuge question. Let's knock that out first, right? Okay, before we get to the Thujone. I got my centrifuge, good. I'm glad to hear it. That's one of all of our favorite pieces of equipment. Yes, interviews. Yeah, you're on the cutting edge by the way. Like, in 15 years, many more high quality restaurants are going to have
+
+[35:24] centrifuges, and people won't think that you're a freak show when you suggest they go get one. Absolutely not. It's coming to homes too. This is the next cuisine arts, you know. Really? They're gonna make one? I think so. I think they were very curious about it yesterday. so let's see. Really? Oh, by the way, before we get to this question, yesterday was the ICP. I didn't go because I had a bunch of events I had to do, but the album, thank you. The award ceremony and last year, uh, Modern Escuisine was about to come out and I co-hosted with Chris Young, you know, one of the other authors, and
+
+[35:55] we were, I was telling him, joking that next year, if you don't win every damned book award, uh, you know, it's going to be a
+
+[36:02] travesty. And in fact, you guys won three. We won three. Including one that they made up for you, right? Like, profound. was it? was it? It was, 0 god, it was like just invent, like a future invention or, you know, it was, they were very gracious and we were very, very honored to receive these awards.
+
+[36:19] Bad year to write a different book. Anyway, okay. In the cooking world, that is. Okay. So, especially a professional book, and or one that purports to have amazing photographs, because you're just going to get swamped. Anyway, okay. So God of Centrifuge, you spump me some strawberries, but I have an issue. I tossed strawberries in the blender, added 2 grams per no, 2 grams of Pectinex
+
+[36:43] ultra SPL, which is a pecknife enzyme for 500 grams of strawberry. That's, you know, more dose than you need. You could probably do one in that amount, but 2's not going to hurt you. You just don't want to put so much pectinex in that you start. It has a slightly fermented room. That's fine. Don't worry about it. Blend it into a slightly warm, good practice. Rested 10 minutes, good practice, 10 to 20, good practice. If you do something that's going to break down like bananas, you don't want to rest any longer than 10 because it'll start to get kind of brown flavors, and spun for 10 minutes. I would, you don't say what speed. I'm assuming you have a centerfuge, it'll do about 4000 times the force of gravity. 10 minutes is on the edge, 10 to 15 is better at those speeds just because it will clarify almost instantly, but the puck solidity is going to get a lot higher when you go faster.
+
+[37:26] Okay, got a very solid puck in crystal clear juice. Glad to hear it. But on top was a layer of what appeared to be the same materials as the puck, but floating on top like a vinegar mother, scooping it out, clouded the juice, but spinning for 5 minutes more, clear it up nicely. Is this a result of air bubbles trapped in the mix? Yes. Yeah. If you have a vacuum machine? vacuum that sucker out, break it before I get the air out? No problem. Right? Absolutely All right. I mean, this is something that, you know, Maxime and I do every day. And glad to hear... Ours actually is acting up. have to get a new motor. Okay. Yeah, it's not going to replace the motor, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're using a centrifuge that only goes up to about 4000 G's, the buckets really aren't, it's not like a hazard to life and limb, but your motors will have to be replaced eventually.
+
+[38:08] It's a bad $900 problem in the one we have. Anyway. Now the 2nd question, the different question. Absinthe. Years ago, when absent 1st became legal to sell in the US, I bought a bottle, and the maker seemed very energetic about saying it was free of
+
+[38:21] contaminants like through Jones from the wormwood. It's not like contaminate. an ingredient. contaminant. People are so crazy. All right. It seemed all right. Yeah, right? Anyway, it seemed all right, but nothing to write home about. More recently, a friend got a bottle and was telling me about it, saying it was made from the original illegal formula. I said I'd like to try, I said I'd tried the Thu Joan free version years ago and laughed and
+
+[38:42] said, Thu Joan free absinthe is like alcohol free rum. Thoo Jones is what makes it special. So what's the real deal? Thanks for doing the show every week. Okay. So, look, Thu Joan is another purported hallucinogenic, you know, psychoactive compound that is found in wormwood, which is one of
+
+[39:00] the, it's the characteristic herb from other than the anise taste, you know, from
+
+[39:05] absinthe. Uh, you know, and all of the later ones like, you know, not later, but different ones like Pernot, not the regular one or
+
+[39:15] or Ricard or Pastis or any one of these southern French, like I'm a small man in Marseille drinking stuff. Not small, but old. I don't mean small physically, but yeah, it's good. But it's especially good in the summer in Marseille when you're sitting out. You know what I mean? Marseille is a great town by the way. Yeah. Yeah. fantastic town. really like it. Anyway, point is that Thu Joan, in there's a lot of research out there, the one
+
+[39:39] that you should go look at, again, you can get to it via Arowid vaults, but there's a bunch of papers out
+
+[39:48] there, where they studied old pre-band absent bottles and found that modern absinthe has roughly similar levels to older absinthe, that the longer that, and that's not really high enough to get you
+
+[40:02] cranked on Thujone by itself unless you drank so much that the ethanol is going to have you stumbling and falling over.
+
+[40:09] So is there some sort of synergism between like the smaller amount of food on that's actually in
+
+[40:15] absinthe? And, you know, who knows? Who can tell? But like most of the studies that have been done, quantitative studies out there point to the fact
+
+[40:22] that really what's happening is you're getting drunk. Uh, and, uh, I mean, horribly drunk, especially if you're trying to see, uh, how much absent it takes you to have a
+
+[40:31] thew jone effect, you're going to be plastered. Plus there's a placebo effect, right? The other thing is, is that wormwood, through John Quantity and wormwood, this has also been checked, goes down radically as it's stored on drying. So if you have your own wormwood, uh, or other artemis species sitting around, and you, um, and you then, uh, like take it right away and make absinthe going to have
+
+[40:54] a much higher throughjone levels than if you take a commercially prepared one that you get in an herb shop that's been dried and sitting around for a year, uh, and you're going to get a
+
+[41:01] much uh, lower quality of throughjone. quantity. But even so, uh, the numbers seem to indicate that you're not going to get crunked on the uh, on the
+
+[41:09] through zone that you're going to get shellacked by the ethanol. Now, uh, through Joan is, uh, is it oregano or sage oil? It's one of those two. Go look it up on the internets. And it's super high in Thoojone. I'm not telling you to go take this, right? But if you need to know what Thu Joan goes, like, go get a proper dose, response
+
+[41:29] relate, you know, a relationship off of the internet. Any one of these, you know, herbal drug sites has many, many users who have put this stuff in. Make sure that you don't listen to anyone that doesn't tell you like relative quantities and different oils and also body weight phenomena, things like
+
+[41:46] this because you want to get your doses. I've never, I've never tried it. But you know what? I've tried other things that people, like, supposed, has supposed psychoactive effects, like, for instance, you know, when I was in
+
+[41:56] Colombia, we were doing coca leaf infusions with coca leaf tea. And yeah, and I've never done cocaine, so I don't know what that's like. I didn't feel anything different, but I had people who had a lot more than I did report
+
+[42:07] that it kept them up at night, for instance. So there was, but a lot of this. Right, but a lot of this could just be mental. Do you know what I mean? Just placebo. If you tell someone, you're having coca leaf infusion. There's an excitement. There's a psychological reaction, which is, you know, No, no. Anyway. Okay, let's take one more commercial. Do we have time to take one more commercial break? All right, let's take one more commercial break. Call your questions. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Cooking issues.
+
+[42:54] Let it rain, let it
+
+[43:00] rain. Oh, I've got them deep river blues. Nothing rain, right on, let the way sweep along, goes I, got them. The revolution.
+
+[43:23] Yeah. Ain't
+
+[43:31] no one look around me. Let it rain, let it fall. And welcome back to Cooking Your Shoes. By the way, I'm not Angelo Gobots, one of my favorite interns of all time. wrote in from Nebraska, but I'm not going to have time to get your question this time. going to get you next time, Angela. All right, on to the last question of the day, and I really want to talk about this with Maxine, because it's something I think he's probably interested in. Steve Crendell writes
+
+[44:03] in, you know, have you seen the paper, this interesting paper on food pairing hypothesis? Uh, and it's called a flavor network and the principles of food pairing by
+
+[44:14] uh, uh, young Yale on at all? Okay, and it was paper last year by, you know, by a bunch of people in a, um, out of a bunch of different institutions. Anyway, so what I haven't had a chance really to have a Maxine look at the paper. So we're not going to talk specifically about the paper, more about just the
+
+[44:35] general the general concept of it. But the basic concept of food pairing has been popular over the
+
+[44:43] last, I don't know, what do you think? The decade or so? Yeah. Yeah, at least, yeah, 10, 15 years, I mean, really, you know, and it's something that, you know, at the fat duck you were exposed to a lot. Yeah, the basic premise is that you can get, and it's controversial. And Maxim and I, we've never discussed it together, so we might violently disagree, which would be awesome way to end the show.
+
+[45:03] But the basic principle is that you can learn something about food pairing, or get interesting food pairing ideas by looking at the actual chemical similarities between different
+
+[45:14] food items. Right. And so what happens is there's large databases of what flavor components are in various different ingredients, and then those are analyzed, and the fat duck was famous for which
+
+[45:28] ones? The white chocolate and caviar both had a very similar volatile
+
+[45:33] components, and it was very interesting. Was good? I actually never had it. I knew the idea. then I had a cocoa and roasted cauliflower, also both shared a
+
+[45:45] compound, and that was it was a beautiful marriage. It makes no sense in, you know, in sort of a traditional context, but when you taste it together, you realize that there
+
+[45:54] is definitely value to approaching it that way. I don't think it's as consistent and as secure of an approach that people will presume when
+
+[46:05] they're when they're really getting into this. Right, I mean, approach them. The study, which you should read, is actually quite interesting. What they've done is they've taken a bunch of recipe databases. And then they've analyzed the recipe databases to see whether when you scan across many 1000s of recipes, is there more often than not shared ingredient, the shared ingredient, flavor
+
+[46:27] components or not? And in the Western corpus, there was, and it was correlated that more than the statistically random amount of
+
+[46:35] recipes, shared flavor components. And in their East Asian data analysis, fewer than the statistically,
+
+[46:42] a number of shared ones would. And but what it boiled down to, the really interesting thing is, is that basically what it
+
+[46:49] is, is that 75% of the recipes they pulled in Western cuisine shared a very small number of flavor, a small number of
+
+[46:55] ingredients. And those ingredients shared a lot of things, like butter, milk. like a lot of these, yeah. Yeah, these very simple, yeah. Right. And the 6 most common, you know, Asian ingredients didn't share a lot of characteristics. And so because those things basically weighted everything out and all of the other recipes. If you remove the most common, uh, you know, 6 to 10 ingredients out of uh, out of our, out of our toolkits, then it's basically statistically random in terms of that, which is
+
+[47:22] interesting. Here's, you know, my personal feeling about it is that anything that gives you an idea that's going to make you, uh, that's going to give you a good flavor, then fine, do it. whether it's like throwing dice, using a, you know, a dowsing rod, whatever in the hell it is. If it gives you a good idea, it's good, but that, you know, nothing in the world, there's no chemical analysis is going to replace your memory, your taste
+
+[47:47] palate. what you've done before. Like, you might get an idea and then try it, and then know how to tweak it, but there's just, there is no, there is no substitute for having tasted a lot and having cooked a lot.
+
+[47:58] Absolutely. Absolutely. And to sort of, you know, it's interesting that the, I guess the parallel between Western cuisine and Eastern cuisine and how we're noticing that these correlations. What I think is really interesting about Eastern cuisine in this sense is that, you know, taking away the sort of chemical balance of a few
+
+[48:23] ingredients is the balance of flavor. And what I love about Eastern cuisine is that you, you know, now we're talking about flavor. I mean, the tastes, salty,
+
+[48:35] bittersweet acid, and paying less attention to this, you know, this sort of, you know, sort of artificial combination of things that
+
+[48:46] may have a synergy or nata. And so if when you build a sense of, when you build your palate, the balance of flavors is, you know, through
+
+[48:58] practice becomes a very inherent part of your, you know, culinary experience. And a lot of these things maybe more confusing or misleading. Right, but I think what happens is, is, is with anything else, look, the people who are using these kinds of ideas, uh, right, or, you know, in modern
+
+[49:16] cuisine, using new pieces of new pieces, equipment, new techniques, whatever, these are usually in general a very highly creative set of people and they're looking for inspiration.
+
+[49:24] Like, and I've said this many times. Like the fundamental thing that Faran gave us was the desire to look outside of the normal kitchen for our
+
+[49:35] inspiration. You know what I mean? And that's the thing. It's not foams or whatever. It's this, it's this intense curiosity and this, you know, love of learning. And so as cooks do this, they, you know, they're looking for very, you know,
+
+[49:49] different disparate sources of inspiration. And is this idea of different chemical shared things, could that be a source of
+
+[49:59] inspiration? Of course, of course. But someone who doesn't have the palate to back it up, doesn't have the experience to back it up, it will be confusing, as you say. A horrible disaster. horrible. So why don't we end this show on horrible disaster? Thank you, Maxine. Thank you, Donna. Nastasia. See you next week on cooking issues. All right.
+
+[50:23] Vicious fish and vodka. Oh, you did that. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs and Heritage Radio Network.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[50:50] Radio Network and the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date in your news. Thanks for listening. straight. Fishes, fish, and vodka.
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+[0:00] You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live to the Cosmos from the backyard at Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:14] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from approximately 12 to 1245 every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:24] Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, not here today, but we are currently joined in the studio with Brooks
+
+[0:35] Headley, the master pastry chef, Del Posto Restaurant. And some of you, uh, might not know a uh, longtime hardcore musician. True. Uh, yeah, yeah. It's a very checkered pass, so... Well, I mean, and present. You still play occasionally, right? Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, you like, you know, Austin, the whole nine. What's your current band? Or Banza. It's called Crash. Crash? You've had names that were a little more less safe for work, haven't you, in the past or no? No, I mean, they're all pretty safe. Yeah, it's just worse. Yeah, yeah. what are you, what are you, just words. I like that. And what are you what are you playing in the band? I've always played drums. It's the only thing I know how to do. People that can play multiple instruments piss me off, so. I like that. You know what pisses me off is people who do like more than one thing at a time. It's like, what the hell, you know, it's like, uh, I mean, I was never, uh, I was never much of a hardcore guy. hardcore or just like, what do you think? classify yourself as hardcore? I don't know. I mean, you hate classification like every band member ever? No, it's I don't know. I don't even know anymore, so. people you play with, what are they categorized as? I don't think they know either, so. All right, all right. Anywho, uh, yeah. People who play multiple instruments, especially in any genre of music where kind of like how good you
+
+[1:54] are, depends on how much physical energy you throw into the performance, right? I don't know about your music. That's the way I was. If you do more than one thing, it's like you're just not spending enough energy doing the one thing that you're doing. You're not paying enough attention, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, to a certain, yeah. I go with that. All right. Ariel Johnson, our favorite PhD candidate at University of California Davis. Here, uh, Ariel, grab a, grab a mic over here. I don't really know what department she's in. Yeah, she's going to climb over me, folks, so you're going to hear a pause. Oh she's going back to me. strong, strong. Uh, I really don't know what department she's in, but uh, she deals, we deal with her mainly in the in the area of uh, flavor and uh, studies of flavor. And her speciality on her piece of equipment is a very nice gas chromatograph that can do small volumes for food. describe this crap. Okay, so my home department is viticulture and analogy, but I do all kinds of flavor chemistry.
+
+[2:53] But the GC that we have lets us separate complex mixtures of aromas and combine any amount that we
+
+[3:01] want and then analyze their smell. That's gas chromatograph for all you fools out there. Oh sorry. And so basically, what correct me when I'm wrong, but this piece of equipment does, and it's something that we all want, none of us own, what this basically does, you take a sample, and it's slowly kind of, I guess the word is eluded or drawn through a long
+
+[3:20] column. And the rate at which things are drawn through is characteristic for each compound. So you will separate it based on how fast it goes through this column, true or
+
+[3:33] false. True, definitely true. Right. Yeah, so you start with a complex mixture and each component interacts differently with a column and then eludes in a nice order. Right. And then how do how does it, how do you check then? Is it for people out there? How do you then check how much of that compound is there as it goes through? Well, we have a detector called a mass spectrometer. Yeah, that shows the amount of each compound as a peak and the area under the peak is related to
+
+[3:59] concentration. All right, so now all you folks who don't already know this, which most of our listeners probably do, but if you don't, when you're watching the CSI
+
+[4:06] Miami and they say, uh, do they still have that show? I don't have a TV. I don't know. Anyway. So anyway, so when they do that, they're like, ah, GC Mass Spec, that's what they're talking about. Gas chromatograph and then through a mass spectrometer. But the cool thing about Ariel's one is that you can, true or false, you can bottle the crap and sniff it yourself when you're done, right? Yeah, we use liquid CO2 to condense everything down and remix it and then smell it. Me, me, me, me, me, liquid CO2. CO2 for liquid CO2 for all of you guys out there is like one of the world's great
+
+[4:37] solvents, and it's also relatively nice and clean,
+
+[4:43] simple, and friendly to use in a lab, assuming you have the equipment. Yes? Yes, yeah. Also, does very little to... It's fairly neutral and that doesn't degrade most of the things you're working with, right? Okay. I mean, I don't know whether, I mean, I'm sure most of the solvents they use don't degrade things otherwise. wouldn't use them. That's true Yeah, okay. All right, so call in all of your questions either about flavor chemistry or about world's greatest pastries or about any random
+
+[5:11] bull crap you choose. Two, 718-4972128. 718-4972128. And while we're at it. Last week, we made the horrible mistake of not talking about our sponsors modernist pantry. Have any of you guys used the modernist pantry? I've seen the website. You've seen the website, but you know, you've already you've had your suppliers for years, so you probably like, you know, have you ever
+
+[5:33] used? I never have. I have an order. I keep meaning to buy from them. Yeah. Maybe now is the time. I haven't either. I'm ashamed to say, but I have sent many people to them and
+
+[5:43] have heard only good things. So here is this week's, what do you call it, plug, plug? Plug? Okay. Okay. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds
+
+[5:59] of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that make sense for the home cook and enthusiast. And most cost only around 5 bucks. Same you time, money and storage space, presumably they just size, whatever it is they're using to a $5 size, right? I mean, you know, it's like you could say that crack only costs 5 bucks, but then they keep making the size of the crack vial smaller and smaller. True? Uh, I'll take that. Like with Coca-Cola moving to a 20 ounce bottle. What? Well, they used to only have small bottles and then they moved to 20 ounce, but charge the same price. Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, so you're talking about, like, the leader went down to a 20 because I always bought 20s to pound, like a 20 is a nice, I'm going to pound this right now size. Yeah, in like a vending machine. Oh, and a vending machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't purchased Coca-Cola from vending machine a long time. My wife will not let me purchase soda for the children, even though I grew up. I only drank carbonated beverages growing up, except for a very short kind of crystal light phase that I went through where I only drink crystal light. And for those of you out there. Crystal light is actually a huge influence on me Really? For real? You also grew up drinking the crystal light or just later? No, I always hated it, and I thought it tasted terrible, but it's hugely influential in how I look at food for sure. Really? And now, is true or false, you only use aspartam in all of your recipes. That's it. Yeah, only ask for tape. We're lying, by the way. That was a joke for all of you who are very concrete thinkers out there. That is not the case. Wait, the problem is, is if you drink diet, sodas, and or diet, lemonade mixes, or whatever. They have horrible new fake mocktails, by the way, crystal. I haven't tried them, but the idea is horrible. They have a powder that they label mojito, which is that's an impossibility to have a mojito powder. That sounds gross. Yeah, it's horrible. Especially, you know, I'm sure they don't use aspartam anymore. I detest Stevia by the way. Anyone out there who tries to call me up and say that yours, Stevie, is better than anyone else's. The freaking plant tastes bad. I've tasted it like directly, like grown. I've walked up to the plant, picked the leaf off and be like, yes, that awful, metallic, bitter, crappy aftertaste is inherent to the product.
+
+[8:10] And not, I mean, unless, and what I freaking love about this is that there are companies who sit there working around how to mask the incredibly awful taste.
+
+[8:19] Anyway, it's pretty gross. Yeah. So for those of you that are like, well, why don't you just drink the regular one, it's because those of us who drink predominantly diet liquids don't like to drink flat water for our hydration. We don't enjoy the flat water. We are throwbacks, some sort of Lamarckian genetic throwback to the days when water was poisonous, and none of us like to drink that. And so the issue is, if you were to drink regular soda or regular lemonade as your sole source of hydration, that would be absurd.
+
+[8:52] Like who wants to drink a jug of maple syrup every day? Very few of us, right? So where diet soda drinkers are coming from is we inure ourselves to the horrible aftertaste, and eventually you learn to like it, right? If you haven't done it in a long time, you know, it's hard sometimes to go back, but you kind of get over that taste hump. And then all of a sudden, it doesn't bother you anymore. And we pound, we pound liter after liter of this crap every day. Now, that is why when you are shopping for somebody's party, uh, and you are a regular soda drinker, you make the uh, the horrible error of purchasing equal amounts of diet soda and regular soda.
+
+[9:25] When anybody knows, if even 2 diet soda drinkers show up to your party. They will pound every amount of diet soda that you have provided. You all know this to be true. Anyway, my recommendation to do is instead of getting on these crappy, like, you know, mojito powder, 1st of all, first, if you're
+
+[9:41] going to put alcohol into it, just making a real drink. Otherwise, you're a bad person. But, uh, I mean, that strongly, maybe, but kind of close, right? No, you should you should stand by that for sure. Yeah, all right, okay. Uh, but uh, my my big suggestion is learn to like seltzer. When I was a kid, I always drank soda. So I was bubbles all the way back. all the way back, bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, my whole life, bubbles. I started on tab in the 70s, all right? Bubbles. But, uh, but I didn't like Seltzer for a long time. And then when I was going to the college, I realized that I was going to be cheaper for me to drink seltzer water. And I'm really, I'm a cheap, cheap, cheap man. And so at that time, a cheap, cheap, cheap boy. And so what I did was I, uh, uh, I trained myself over the course of a couple of weeks to, uh, like the
+
+[10:29] self-ser, and then much like diet soda flavors in general, aspertain at the time, uh, you
+
+[10:34] learn to love it, and now, uh, I'll never go back. I'm a social man forever. Back to the monitor's pantry. This all came from the 5 bucks thing. that's where I was. Okay. Whether you are looking for hydrocolloids, pH buffers or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask, Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. Modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries 3 types of spray dried vinegar powder, white, malt and balsamic. By the way, if you use vinegar powder, you got to realize acetic acid is volatile, right? It's one of the few acids that we use in cooking that is extremely volatile. A lot of organic acids are volatile. But this gives a lot of characteristic flavor, you know, aroma flavors to certain alcoholic
+
+[11:20] beverages, distilled beverages. But the majority of acids that we deal with on a daily basis. In the kitchen, citric acid, malic acid, tartaric acid, non-volatile. Acetic acid is. So if you get sprayed dried vinegar powder, it has the flavor, like a taste of a vinegar, but there's almost no acidity. And so when you're adding a vinegar powder or something to make it acidic, you will have to cheat it with another
+
+[11:42] acid. So a typical cheater acid would be citric acid because it's the most neutral of the dry powdered acids that you can buy.
+
+[11:52] And people are used to associating the kind of lemony acid hit of citric acid in
+
+[12:02] general. And so apparently there are cheater acids out there that are specifically meant to give the acidic kick to things like potato
+
+[12:08] chips. I don't have. I had a guy who slipped me his card once. He's like, I make them call me, but Nastasia, I don't know whether she ever called the guy. So I don't have the source for them yet, and I can't tell you what they are. So if you buy it, I would also suggest buying from them some citric acid powder. The one gripe I have with the commercial citric acid powders is the
+
+[12:28] granual size is relatively large. It's somewhere in between US granulated sugar and a US superfine sugar. So it's a little bit too granular for me for the compared to the spray dried powders, which are very, very powdery because of the method in which they're made. So there's no ideal solution yet. Maybe buy some citric acid, pulse it in a spice grinder for a little while to try and get it a little more
+
+[12:48] powdered so that it integrates better with the vinegar powder. Anyway, okay. We carry 3 types of spray dried vinegar powders, white, malt, and balsamic. Fans of cooking issues. It plays an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of malt vinegar powder. choice. powder, good stuff. Uh, which is perfect for making modernist fish and chips. Do they use that in the fish and chip recipe in the modernist cuisine? Anyone? Anyone? Should have had that crap on last week when Maxine was here. Simply use the promo code CI 80 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay. So, uh, by the way, you know, I have no idea whether these guys are pissed off or not that I constantly like stop in the middle of their promos and
+
+[13:30] like make comments and whatnot. I think that's why they keep coming back. I think they like it Really? Yeah, who knows? All right. So, hey, Brooks, I don't know you haven't, because by the way, folks, if you don't know me, I'm a jerk, and I haven't
+
+[13:42] given Brooks any of the information that we're going to talk about before the show. So he has no idea what the hell's going on. I plan to be completely sandbagged here. That's how it goes. So we're going to start, though, with the reason Ariel, I hadn't planned on having her on the show today, but she wrote in a comment based on the kind of flavor pairings, question we had last
+
+[14:04] week and the paper on flavor pairings. By the way, I'm going to buy that book by that Somoye is very interested in this. Oh, the taste buds and molecules? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have no judgment on it because I have not read it yet. I refuse to make comments on things I haven't read yet either pro or negative. The reviews are mixed on Amazon, but mainly about the graphics presentation of it, which some people really
+
+[14:24] like and some people really hate, but I'm going to check it. So for those of you that don't know what in the hell we're talking about, flavor pairing is this concept, I think, largely bunk, and by bunk, I
+
+[14:35] mean crap, that you should be able to pick out the different flavors that you
+
+[14:40] use based on their underlying chemical composition. In other words, if parrot meat shares a specific flavor compound with donkey
+
+[14:55] poo, that you might want to put the parrot and the donkey poo together in a dish. Obviously, I don't really mean, but whatever. don't kill parrots. But eat donkey poo? Well, that's up to you. I mean, you're not hurting it. like no one's going to get angry at you for it. True, yeah, yeah. And, you know, my family's had parrots, please. I have no comments on how I'm anti-par-. I' prepared. I wanna get a parrot action. My wife doesn't like birds, but I want a bird because my kids want a pet, but we have no room for a dog. We can't have cats because we're allergic to the cats and my decision laws allergic to the cats, but I want a pet that they will give a crap about people and parrots are like the other pet that cares about people, even though they're weird about
+
+[15:33] it. Like they're weird about it because they're birds, but anyway, whatever anyway. So we're talking about this concept. There's this paper that came out recently that actually what they did is they did a mass database, data mining study of recipes. And then those recipes, they look to see whether or not they shared
+
+[15:49] chemical, the hammer just walked in. Nastasia. Uh, they compared those recipes to see whether or not there was any actual, uh, whether it's true that recipes that we tend to make over the course of decades, years, centuries actually share more flavor components than would be if you just chose recipes at random, which is the horrible idea that
+
+[16:08] Erveitis actually espouses it. We should make sauces on randomly based on a computer, have them generated, and then see whether or not they taste good, which seems to me to be the monkey typing Shakespeare way of making food, which is preposterous and horrible.
+
+[16:22] So, Brooks, you familiar with this taste pairing hypothesis crap? Um, not entirely now. But so far, I mean, I know I presented it in a rather biased jaundice light. Does this sound like a good idea or would you prefer to base flavor combinations on the years you've spent tasting and cooking?
+
+[16:39] Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's like, um, it's all, it's repetition, you know? Like repetition of making things or tasting things. Um, like you kind of like build your palate, I guess. Yeah, that's the way I think about it. So area. That just seems just like normal, so... Yeah, and of course, like, you know, now, like, it's very rare that I'm in the position of being like the old codger son of a bitch who's like, just modern stuff. You know what I mean? But, like, it seems to me that, look, in the end, anything that helps you make better food, good idea. Like, I don't care what your inspiration is. If your inspiration is, you know, looking at constellations and somehow looking at constellations and you have some sort of matrix that
+
+[17:20] then like gets your creative juices flowing and your food ends up tasting good. Bueno. But you know what I mean? The crystal light logo. Yeah, sure. Like, sure, Brooks. Yeah, that that splash. Brooks, the splash on the crystolite logo. Apparently, Brooks is now telling me true or false, inspiration for all of your cooking. Not all of it, but a lot of the fruit-based things for sure. What about the celery sorbet? your amazing celery sorbet. No, I don't think that had anything to do with the crystal light logo. Please, please. For those of you that don't know, by the way, before, I'm going to get Ariel on this in a 2nd about the what she thinks about it. And I want her to give me her unvarnished opinion, pro or negative, because nothing I like better than a good argument. But Brooks, and we've said this a 1000000 times on the show, you know, whenever you try and say that he's doing innovative work, he'll say he's not, but the fact of the matter is makes delicious desserts that you aren't expecting.
+
+[18:13] So for me, that's innovation right there. What do you think? Nastache, what do you think? You have to you have to speak up. You're not by a microphone. Yeah, okay. So, Ariel, what are your thoughts on what are your thoughts on this flavor pairing stuff? On flavor pairing around this paper? First, give me flavor pairing, nutshell, and then this paper in, you know, another
+
+[18:31] separate nutshell. Well, I would imagine that shared compounds and shared volatiles may play some role in a novel flavor pairing, whether or not someone eating it likes it or not, but it's not going to be a
+
+[18:44] deterministic guarantee that a parent will work. And it might have to do more with the non-shared compounds on how those go together when you make a
+
+[18:52] pairing out of things. So what you're saying is that it may or may not have any relevance at all. Yes. Do you find it an interest, like, is it interesting to you as a as a starting point or as a framework in which to
+
+[19:05] work? Do you have you seen any dishes that have come out of it that would otherwise not have come into the world that you think are going to be here for a long time because they're so freaking
+
+[19:15] awesome? Well, I don't know that I could comment on longevity, but I have had some interesting, like, uh, orange and beetroot type things that Heston Blumenthal made. That makes sense to me. Well, it makes sense to you, but would it make sense to anybody? Otherwise, orange and beets don't sound like they're so, they're not so far off. I mean, they make it makes sense to me from a cook's perspective, right? Yeah, no, that doesn't sound weird, huh? Yeah. Like liver and jasmine sounds weird. So then, well, yeah. That sounds weird. I've never had that. Yeah, but I mean, that's one of the classic. Yeah, yeah. I haven't had the white chocolate and caviar before. Yeah, yeah, Maxine was talking about that lessing concept. Yeah, I just tasted it. It depends on the proportion between white chocolate and caviar, but it can be kind of cool. Also, caviar is such a wide ranging flavor. That's true. And white chocolate is evil. Yeah, it's true. Also true. Thank God we have Brooks here. awesome. Okay, so what? Wait a minute, we're not done talking about this paper yet. They won't take a break. All right. So, uh, and by the way, while we're taking a break, you better call in your freaking questions, so 71, 84, and 72,
+
+[20:21] 128, 718, 497, 2128. Okay. Now, about the paper. Well, by the way, paper, yeah, describe the paper very quickly. Okay, so what the paper did, they took a gigantic set of recipes, I think, from all recipes, and some Korean sight. But yeah, did a Korean site to see whether or not Western perception of Korean food was the same as Korean perception of Korean food,
+
+[20:39] right? So they took this gigantic online recipe database and took each recipe and looked at the ingredients in each and then from some handbook of essential oils and a couple of other things determined what compounds were in each ingredient. Which is a horseshit technique, right? Well, considering that the, uh, aroma character, if any given compound is dependent on
+
+[20:57] concentration, I'm not sure how relatable to flavor their data set, actually. Wildly dependent, right? Oh, extremely. I'm told what I meant to say was horse poop. Yeah, so in other words, you'll know off the tip of your tongue, but like certain things can go from being like pleasantly grassy to vomit, like depending on
+
+[21:15] concentration, right? Yeah, ethyl buterate is a good example of that. That at a nice medium concentration smells like green apple. Um, as you increase the concentration, it starts smelling like rotten apples and then finally like feet or really, really stinky cheese. Wasn't that the name of your last band? Come on, man. Like Ethel Merman buterate. That's your next band. FM rum and biterate. You know, Brooke sometimes will have like nano bands that like, you know, are only there. Maybe one of them could be... like a pop-up? Yeah, it's a micro band. Micro band. A nanob band? Yeah, nanob band. Okay. So was that the only gripe you had about the paper? I think the site was at all recipes. I think it was all recipes. I think it was all recipes. Every recipe on that is one of Brooks's, by the way. Oh, every single one. Okay, so I won't hit on it too much. Um, I don't know actually what recipes went into their data set. They didn't give a list, but if you look at the primary ingredients for what they call North American recipes, it's all butter, eggs, wheat, sugar, and cream, which adjusts to
+
+[22:11] me that, uh, the recipes they use to represent North American cuisine are desserts. And there's so much more to North American cuisine than just desserts. I mean desserts. Although it is what we are, is this what we're best at as opposed to what other people are good at? But I don't think all of North American flavor pairing in a
+
+[22:27] cultural context can be described just by cake recipes on all recipes. The other problem is, is that the cooked aroma of those is vastly different from the, I mean, no one thinks that if you were to gather the ingredients for a pie, they do
+
+[22:41] not the smell of a cooked pie make. is true. In fact, the compounds aren't even there yet. They're all in precursor form. So, but what's interesting about it, the, the, the findings of the study are basically, if you remove a certain subset of things, like these very basic ingredients from either Asian cuisine or, uh, you know,
+
+[23:03] West, what they call Western, who the hell knows because we don't have the recipes. Turns out that they don't share any more than would be statistically randomly associated.
+
+[23:14] You know, once you take out the top 6 ingredients or something. So, but you say you would be loath to take this study on to accept either a positive or negative finding because you think the methodology is poor. Yeah, I think large data driven studies like this are valuable and interesting, but they're only as good as the data sets that they use.
+
+[23:35] And I think that their data set and their approach are flawed to make the too flawed to make the broad conclusions that they do. Yeah, pretty pictures though. Did I mention that? Oh, yeah, cool, cool. Really, really pretty pictures. I think that's the problem because the study is getting a lot of traction. And so people are paying a lot of attention to it, but as one of my many gripes in the world is that someone makes a
+
+[23:53] study, puts a big splashy, like, you know, statement in the abstract or conclusion, and then it gets a lot of traction because no one goes back and reads
+
+[24:01] the damn study. Exactly. All right. And with that, calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. 7184972128 take a break. cooking issues.
+
+[25:09] That had to have been Nastasia to Downton Abbey. Cooking issues down to Abbey Edition. That's the most used break song of 2012 on this stage. People love this. Really? Do they think that we're going to come back with British accents and be kind of like lords and ladies? I always hope that I want to be the servant. Do your accent, man. I want to be. do the accent. Okay, Carrot in here, the bartender do it. I'm going to come back as Mr. Bates. Mr. Bates, you know, never gets what he wants, that poor son of a bitch. All right, call her, you are on the air. Hi, this is Drilling. I guess we just have a question of whether you think of the problems with this, what's it called?
+
+[25:50] The flavor, uh, flavor pairings, whether that's, uh... Flavor pairings, that is based on these specific studies, or is it based on the fact that you don't think that
+
+[26:00] that's a, an interesting way of, of finding new, new flavor compounds at all? I'll give you my perspective really quickly. I'm not going to talk about the study. I'll let Ariel do that. My feeling is that it's going to be both, look, here's here's my thing. I think, um, I think it's scientifically flawed. In other words, look, I don't think that there's any reason, a priori, to believe that because 2 ingredients share chemical
+
+[26:29] compounds that they go well together, right? But that said, if it's not an invalid source of inspiration for somebody, if you find it interesting and inspirational, and if you get good ideas from it, any more than reading a book can give you ideas for a dish or, you know, being out in
+
+[26:49] a, in a field in the middle of spring and like thinking about things can give you inspiration.
+
+[26:54] So I don't, there's no such thing as an invalid source of inspiration. It's just, I think that there's no reason for me to believe
+
+[27:02] that that things should go together just because they share compounds. That's my gripe. Now in the study, what do you think? Well, I think, if we can go back to flavor pairing really quickly, the takeaway from that is that, um, there are a huge number of fascinating and interactive perceptual things that are going on between chemistry and flavor when we mix ingredients
+
+[27:23] together. We just have no idea how they work yet. So what are your thoughts? You think we're full of crap or do you agree, disagree? What's your take? Me? Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I think that a lot of the things you would get would be, uh, you know, you've
+
+[27:42] got, you've got your base flavors in different cuisines, right? And so if you were to look, if you were just, take a bunch of, in this case, Korean recipes or, you know, high recipes or anything like that, right, you're going to get all these compounds that are most commonly coming up in
+
+[27:58] those, in those recipes, you know? So, whether that's, that's based spices or uh, based, or, you know,
+
+[28:05] or, or some spices that are used a lot in those, in those cuisines, they're
+
+[28:09] going to keep coming up. So I think what you would get then is just a repetitive kind of pairing that. Oh, you know, uh, I can't even, you know, just, you know, an Indian cuisine, you know, uh, curries, you know,
+
+[28:23] all the spices that go into there, right? Well, they're in practically everything. So every, you know, you keep going through these dishes and that's what you're going to get. So I don't, I don't really see how you would get new things because I, I, I guess it would only come together when you're crossing
+
+[28:39] cuisines and then it was like some random ingredient from one cuisine and another random ingredient now in the cuisine and they share flavor
+
+[28:47] compound. And so then you would just assume that they could be swapped out with each other. And then I think it would
+
+[28:52] be, I just, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I kind of see what you're saying. I kind of disagree that you can't get new flavors by going into, look, the genius of kind of American cuisine,
+
+[29:05] right? We started with kind of the now much maligned kind of fusion stuff, right? Which everyone now is, oh, fusion. Well, you know, that's an old gripe. Maybe people are profusion again, but, you know, back when I was a kid, like fusion was the passé thing. No one wanted to be labeled with a fusion label. But what we are at base here in the
+
+[29:23] US and certainly abroad in the modernist kind of thinking if you take that as an actual movement, which, you know, we can have a debate, is we steal things,
+
+[29:31] right? So we steal things from industry. We steal things from, uh, we steal things from anything. And so we steal things from other cultures. And so I think that the best way to steal something is to use their flavor
+
+[29:44] components straight up for a while to kind of get a feel for it. And then you can take bits and pieces because you know how they work together. And so you can get, you know, really kind of new and different flavors without doing straight fusion,
+
+[29:57] right? You know, flavor of India with French technique or what would be more interesting the other way around. Indian technique with French ingredients. But, uh, what do you guys think about this is a motive of
+
+[30:13] innovation. In other words, I don't I don't think it's this flavor pairing thing isn't, obviously, is not necessary for innovation. I mean, it could be interesting. It could be interesting to kind of trip your mind into new things, but again, anything could do that. You know what I mean? I don't know. anyone? Brooks? I mean, as a, as like a, a form of inspiration or whatever,
+
+[30:36] then sure, that's, that's cool, but I mean, like, you know, when it comes down to it, it's just, like, tasting
+
+[30:43] and and putting the things together and and doing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again until you have something
+
+[30:50] that, that kind of works, you know? So. Right, I mean, I mean, I mean, certainly, uh, chemistry is not as ripe a a place for inspiration as the crystal light splash. But you want to talk about that for a second? The splash? Again? Yeah. What do you like about it? I'm hoping that we can have a small commercial break and that we can get the, I believe, in Crystal Light
+
+[31:11] song. It just looks so refreshing that that's what you want to sort of aspire
+
+[31:19] to. I mean, I believe that. You know, that's the thing. not all food is meant to be refreshing, but I really like refreshing things.
+
+[31:26] Like, I really like, you know, refreshing is always good. No one's like, oh, my God. I went and I had a, you know, I had this dessert. I had this sorbet and it was refreshing. You know what I mean? No one's ever, no one's ever anti-refreshing. No one ever wants to, you know, I want the, I want the heavy mental beat down, like for my, that's what you know. I guess, you know, ponderous. Who wants a ponderous meal? refreshing. I think I've got the ad if you want. Yeah, all right, let's go to a tiny micro commercial break where we're going to do some crystal light. I believe that because I should be as fun as can be. I've been leaving it right, and to debris. I believe in crystal light, 'cause I'm believe in me. Crystal like drink makes a sweeten with 100% nutrisweet, so there's no sugar, no saccharine, and no saccharine aftertaste. All these natural flavors taste so terrific. It's hard to believe there's only four calories of glass. Leave in crystal light, 'cause I believe in me. Oh, yeah. Refreshing crystal light. Only 4 calories per serving. No, yeah, I mean, like, what's not to love about that? It's not even, it's everything about that is refreshing and exciting and the guitar line and the
+
+[32:39] drums. It's just plain awesome. Yeah, and the word nutra sweet is cool too. Yeah, yeah. Because it gives you nutrients without giving you calories and it's sweet. That's awesome. Awesome. No wonder I drank buckets of that stuff growing up. Man. All right. I got a question that hopefully Brooks will enjoy from last week. Angela, our one of our favorite interns from Nebraska, land of endless possibilities, wants to make fluffy butterscotch. Can she do it? She's using it to build a cake, but she doesn't just want to do butterscotch buttercream. What's up, white tap meat? Nothing. The lady was trying to get your attention. Well, we're doing a show right now. Okay. So, okay, so Brooks, you're going to be good at this. So the butterscotch, for those of you that don't know what the hell we're talking about is butterscotch. And basically, you know, it's like brown sugar cooked with butter, and then usually some cream is added in, and it's turned into a sauce, right? Yes. Right, salt. So, yeah, super important. Yes, thank you. So the question is, without just using that as a basis for a buttercream. If you want to make it fluffy, what would you do? Would you make a moose out of it? For a cake, but you don't want... Um, yeah, I mean, you could easily take, take, like, say, like make a butterscotch sauce
+
+[33:45] and and, you know, whip egg whites into it to make it sort of light and moosey or whatever. Um, but... You need to add gel it. No, so the egg whites don't break down after it sets, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like, I'm, I'm not, that's, I wouldn't do that. So, um, What would you do? If I wanted like a butterscotch flavor. But fluff, yes. But fluffy? But fluffy, but not like a butter, not like a buttercream. Um, Honestly, I would, uh, I think like really perfect butterscotch sauce made with the best possible butter and
+
+[34:20] and, uh, dark brown sugar and salt and, um, Like, I would just use that. and use that as a garnishing agent rather than try to make it something different because perfect butterscotch sauce is just perfect and it doesn't need to be
+
+[34:38] fluffy, so. All right, so basically, Brooks, you're avoiding the question. Let's say you wanted that son of a gun to be fluffy. I mean, in other words, like, could you take something like that and make a fondant and then beat it? Or would the fat interfere? I mean, I think like, yeah, there's there's ways that it could be done. I just, like, my, for something like that, my brain doesn't really work that way. I mean, obviously you could make something with the texture of a chocolate mousse, just, you know, treat it like a chocolate mousse, lower the liquid base a little bit because you already have
+
+[35:16] a little bit more liquid in the butterscotch, but it should work. So that's egg whites, like you said, gelatin folded together and set. Can you spread a moose and have it not break? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. But you wouldn't do it. I wouldn't, no, not personally. I'm actually, I'm actually trying to eliminate all of the use of gelatin period in
+
+[35:34] any, in all of my... No, no, no. Just, I think it's, it's a crutch that people use too much. Um, and, uh, just not for any real reason other than just to say I did it. Right. So, in other words, like here's another source of inspiration, kind of self-limitation. A lot of really good dishes come out of self- limitation. Whole cuisines are based on self- limitation. And so when you've already achieved a certain level, the question is how do you branch out or get some new stuff, give yourself a limit, and then see what happens? Is this why you did it or just for the hell of it? Um, I just, I just, I don't know. I think gelatin's kind of creepy. and, um, I just, I like pig hooves. No, no. I'm totally into pig hooves. It's just the, like, it's just the... I just think it's used a lot overly so, and, um, yeah, that's all. Yeah, all right. Nastasia. Do you remember the recipe for the inside of gets caramel creams, which are like God's candy? Yeah, no, I don't remember it off the top of me. Man, that stuff's good. You like caramel cream? Of course. Absolutely. For those of you that don't live in the United States of America. I think are they west coast or are they only east coast? I mean, they're a Pennsylvania Dutch style of thing. Getz is a Pennsylvania company. It's pronounced, it's written like Gertz, G-O-E, like TZ. pronounced gets. And what it is, it's caramel with the little bull's eye of that kind of like whipped fat crap in the middle, which is delicious. Brooks, you're gonna... Yeah, it's kind of dry. And like, yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like somewhere between like Oreo filling and something else where it's just like dry, almost
+
+[37:03] like, like it crumbles in your mouth. Yeah, that would be a good bit of butterscotch flavor, right? Yeah, sure. I don't know how to make that stuff. I think it's powdered sugar and... Well, you tried. Yeah. What we were trying to make a coconut base one. We wanted like a coconut caramel cream. We were trying to do something else with it. That is delicious. Carol cream is delicious candy. Saw some of the economy candy, which is like one of the local big candy shops here in New York. By the way, speaking of Oreos, Brooks makes a delicious freaking Oreo. Delicious. Oreo. So much better than Nabisco's Oreo makes him wish that he had made the Oreo instead. Anyway, uh, guy was like, what candy should I take back? Uh, you know, to England because he was English. He's like, you know, that really says America. I was like, hey, take the caramel creams. They delicious. Okay. So anyways, maybe we've milked this. Brooks is not going to, Angela Brooks will not tell you how to do it. That's just, that's all there is to it. He's not going to tell you. Sorry. Uh, okay. So, 0 my god, I had to put a password on my iPad. So when it goes down, because my kids were invading my iPad. So now it takes me an extra 10 seconds to come up. Okay. I had a question in from, and I can't seem to get to it. Okay, Jack, someone's having problems with the Heritage radio live feed. We fix that crap? Right now? No, no, before. Oh, yeah, that's working. No, all right. Very good. Okay, dear Dave and Co, Josh and Somerset, UK says, I have to keep buying new cooking pros. The one with the cable to a device so that I can put it in the oven because either the probe and or the device keep breaking. Can you please suggest a reliable make, something with good reaction speed? Good range, up to 200 C. That's 400 Fahrenheit for you Fahrenheit folk. And if possible, but not essential, a probe that's mildly resistant to water, so cleaning is made easier. Uh, no. They all suck. I've broken many of them. I've broken tailors, I've broken polders. Ive broken every single one of them I've ever used. They've all crapped out. I used them to try and do a roasted side of a pot. The steam gets inside of that crimp around the probe, around that cable, and they break and they die on me. Has anyone in this room had a good experience with one of those something guns? They suck. what do you recommend then? Well, either just keep buying a crap to a ton of them, which is not a good solution, or I would suggest getting an industrial thermocouple. They're they're ruggedized. The actual cases are rugged eyes. You can get like, basically they look like multimeters with like a rubberized outside and they're pretty much impervious to whatever ails
+
+[39:31] you. And then you get relatively cheap thermocouple probes that attach into
+
+[39:36] them. You want to make sure thermocouple probes come in a wide variety of cable configurations, right? And also head configurations. So you find, um, obviously, the fatter, the thinner they are, the better their response time, but the more fragile they are, and also
+
+[39:50] the, uh, the more expensive they are typically. You want to avoid for oven use, anything that has a complicated head or the micro, like the ones that are used in sous vide, the hypodermics, because the heads of those things aren't rated for high
+
+[40:04] temperatures and they'll burn out. Like the epoxies they use to put everything together on the inside of those heads, not meant to withstand the oven. That said, you get a good fiberglass cable, insulated thermocouple probe, and it's good to 900 Celsius sometimes. Some of these like are 900 Fahrenheit and 9 Celsius. I can't remember. Probably whatever. Uh, but like, but you can get cables that withstand basically uh, kilms. And I've had therm a couple of cables in my oven that have been in there for years, and my oven routinely gets up to 850 Fahrenheit, tops out. My oven tops out at like 875 at this point, Fahrenheit or a little better. And I have embedded thermocouple probes that don't break, and I have air temperature probes that don't
+
+[40:45] break, and I use industrial thermocouple. And the good news is if you find a good source, McMasterCar is a fast source, but an expensive source, you can get them for, you know, like
+
+[40:57] 15, 20 bucks. You can get waterproof ones, just pay attention to the cable. You can make your own thermocouples, which I do. They're typically not waterproof, but they usually last for the application that you're doing. If you make your own probes, by twisting the wires together, it's on the order of a dollar per.
+
+[41:13] You know what I mean? Because you just buy lengths of the cable, make it as long as you want, and get the connector. So that's what I recommend. But I've never had it. The ones that they're using ovens are typically RTD. They're resistance, you know, resistance temperature things. They break. They just, they just don't, they break. They break all the goddang time. They just don't seem to last. Yeah? Yeah. All right, very quickly. Tony, Tony Heron from the mixing bar in Brazil writes in. This is last week it didn't make it in. Last December, we started investing a little more in our cooking lab. We've been working with a conventional distillation of our own booze. I'm glad you can do that. I can't do that here in the US of A. They throw me in the jail. Or they won't throw me in jail. Just take away the liquor license. It's not even my liquor license. It sounds liquor license and then everyone will hate me anyways. Not that they don't already hate me. Okay. But now we have a Rotovap, sockslit, socks. interesting extraction technique, which I don't have time to talk to you about right now, maybe some other time. I like socks extraction. It's kind of old. People, I think, don't do it in lab so much anymore. Yeah we're moving away from that generally. Sometimes for pesticides, but... Delicious pesticides, I think you mean. The advantage of socks that extraction is that it allows you to reuse your solvent a bunch of times so you get fresh solvent into the thing you're extracting from on a consistent basis so you can get much higher extraction rates for a given amount of
+
+[42:28] solvent so you can make really punchy things in socks. Theoretically, that's the advantage of the socks. What do you use instead now? Oh, we use something called solid face micro extraction? Me, me, me, me, me. Okay, we'll stick with socks. Uh, okay. One thing we don't have yet is a chamber vacuum machine. So we adapted glass jars with fast connections to make syrups and speed up infusions. You can see a few pictures on our Facebook page. We tested our jars very well, but warn people about potential dangers. We mostly use it for the barns, we're working okay. Plus, it costs nothing. We use either valves or hot pliers to melt the tubing, which they have like, they have, basically those, those push to connect fittings that you can get in a plumbing store, they push to connect to get the tubing in, which actually are vacuum
+
+[43:05] rated. I mean, I've read the vacuum ratings and those are all right. They use it with an oil-based vacuum pump and a cold trap chilled by ice or dry ice when we have it. What are my thoughts on this setup? My thoughts on the setup. I use it. I saw their setup. It basically mason jars, not even the pickle jars, right? They're very cheap to buy. Be very, very, very cautious. Using this in front of people who aren't wearing safety glasses. Standard pickle jar. First of all, the vacuum is created when you're canning in one of those jars is much less than the vacuum that you create when you're putting an oil-based vacuum
+
+[43:37] pump, the oil-based vacuum pumps that I use, which are refrigeration pumps, they're not even that expensive, routinely get down to 5 millibars or less absolute pressure, right? So you're talking basically a full vacuum, 15 PSI. If you are using a pickle jar like that, which is molded. There's seams in it and there's lots of places where there's additional stress involved in it. You could be setting yourself up for a violent, sudden violent implosion. So what I would recommend is putting a, and the problem with an implosion, even though it goes in, is that the pieces can pass each other. In other words, just because it's imploding doesn't mean that it's going to hit its counterpart on the other
+
+[44:13] side. So glass goes everywhere. And by everywhere, I mean, in your eye, in your face, you know, in stuff like this, in your ice well, even worse. And, uh, so, uh, you're going to want to wrap electrical tape around it to stop like the pieces from flying too far and or get a mesh. The old lab trick, I was told by old rotovap heads for people before they purchased plastic coated glassware for everything, was to wrap, wrap everything in electrical tape, basically. Uh, so that the pieces don't go too far. The other thing I would recommend. Move to move to a polycarb uh, polycarb uh, vessels. They have pressure rated polycarp things, like, for instance, pasta click keepers that will withstand that kind of vacuum level. It doesn't cost that much more. And those when they shatter, polycarb has a much better shatter mode than glass does because it will
+
+[45:05] crack, but it will not splinter into a bunch of pieces. This is why when you're when you're making potato guns and other sort of high pressure air guns with piping. PVC is actually not a great choice because the fracture, the
+
+[45:18] fracture mode of PVC is into splintering kind of things, whereas certain other plastics, I believe like ABS or
+
+[45:26] polycarb, when they fracture have better kind of a fracture mode. So, uh, that's just my thoughts. The other question, yeah, was, when working with a Roto app, do you guys tend to puree the products before distillation, yes. Although Tony Canayaro, our good buddy in England, does not. I got in a habit of blending stuff into a pulp and sometimes straining it to get a better extraction. It seems like the pureed plus straining method gives a smoother distillation towards the end of a run compared to just a puree. Um, okay, what do you think about pureeing versus pureeing pieces or chunks or straining
+
+[45:58] out? Thanks very much. Here are my thoughts. Well, the reason you probably like the strained puree better is taste the stuff that you've strained out. If the stuff you strained out doesn't have as good of a flavor as the stuff that went through your shinois or whatever you're passing, that's the cause of the difference in
+
+[46:12] the flavors. I mean, like the way I always figure how I wrote it, but I sniff it and I see what's kind of come through. I don't think that the straining itself shouldn't make it any more or less smooth. I would recommend putting things through a very light vacuum cycle before you wrote an app to get rid of foam over problems. You might be also having problems. Your straining might be getting rid of some of the air bubbles that came through when you're puréing. By getting rid of those air bubbles when you're puréing, you're causing you're getting less violent foam up on the beginning. less foam up as you start is going to give fewer kind of microparticles of crap.
+
+[46:48] They're coming over along with your distillate as it's running. So there's a study recently on amino acids in
+
+[46:55] unaged, in unaged distillates. Clearly, amino acids should not be in an unaged distillate. contamination of some sort because amino acids, they
+
+[47:05] don't they don't distill, right? They're non-volatile. And so one of the explanations is microparticles of things carried over in violent distillations. And so by reducing the violent distillations by getting rid of some of the entrained air at the beginning, perhaps you are actually making a smoother distillation. But simpler way for that would just be to vacuum it. So my 2 things are, if you're actually getting smoother distillations, because A, you're getting rid of air, which is going to help you at the beginning of your distillation run, B, you are taking out products that don't have as nice an aroma as the other stuff.
+
+[47:36] Yeah. Yeah, anyone? We've got an email question for Brooks from a Paul. You want to read it for me, Jack? I will, yeah. Says, I've seen statements Brooks has made on the creation of vegan desserts for guests. Can he comment on these desserts and keep the hammer from making her vegan face? Are these items on the menu or would one need to call ahead to let the kitchen know that vegans are
+
+[48:00] coming? Who sent that question, by the way? That is a Paul. Paul. Paul. Um, no, we have a uh, we have a 7 course vegan tasting menu that's
+
+[48:10] uh, always there every day. On the menu, though? It's um, if someone asks, we have it. You bring the menu with tongs? No, we haven't. It's just our way of being, uh, like proactive. Like we, if someone comes in and they have that particular dietary restriction, then we absolutely have them covered.
+
+[48:33] So when you're working, it's a hospitality thing. When you're working on something like that, do you kind of have to make it like a catchall, like also hypoallergenic and all that other stuff or no? Um, yeah, well, actually, uh, I think we make it so it is, it can be like
+
+[48:48] gluten-free too. Because often those 2 go together, but it can, it's, we have, we have the capabilities to do any sort of
+
+[48:56] like, um, almost any like dietary thing just because, like I said, it's a hospitality thing. If somebody comes in, um, you know, to our restaurant, like it's our job to make sure that they leave completely psyched.
+
+[49:09] That's great. That's great. And tell me a little bit about making it. Like, do you like working on that problem? It seems like an interesting problem. Yeah, no, it's fun because it's one of those that's like giving yourself limitations things because especially with dessert, so much of it is based on eggs and cream and butter and, you know, stuff like that.
+
+[49:32] So to make stuff like that, but then have it still
+
+[49:36] taste good and still be something that could be served at a, you know, at a 4 star restaurant, that's
+
+[49:43] a, that's a big challenge and it's a really fun thing too. Hey, Nastasia, let's go to Del Posto and get the vegan... Yeah, let's do it. You want to do it? Let's do it soon. Yeah, I'm gonna do that. All right, so listen. I don't know if I'm going to get to do it before next week, but Nastasia and I are going to go to the Del Posto restaurant. Uh, you know, one of our favorite Italian joints. And we're going to get the 7 chords. That was such a jerk. We're going to get the 7 course vegan tasting menu. Super thanks to Brooks, and Ariel, for coming in, and I want, here's what I want you guys to think about over the, over the next week, uh, because I want to talk about it next week. I don't really know what I think. There's a cohort study out. Cohort means they just choose a bunch of random people, not random. They, like a group, and then they have questionnaires and they data mine it. I hate most data mining studies in general. Ariel? Oh, yeah. They suck, right? Data snooping. Yeah, it sucks. So there was a huge one that came out recently called Red Meat Consumption and Mortality came out in March on March 16th. It's one of the, it's a big data mining studies basically saying that if you eat meat, you're more likely to die, which we all die. But in other words, they mean faster. So I haven't had time to go over the data set, but I'd like all of you actual science
+
+[50:54] folk in our listening audience to think about this study, the pros cons, whether you guys believe it or whether you think it's a load of horse hockey and just bad data or good data.
+
+[51:04] Anyway, I'm going to leave you with that. Thanks again for Brooks. Thanks for Ariel. Cooking issues.
+
+[51:14] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching
+
+[51:29] Heritage radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted
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+[0:00] Hey, what's up? This is John Norris and you're listening to the Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[0:10] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday
+
+[0:19] from, actually, we're start on town today, 12. Yeah, to about 1245. Actually, next week might be a problem. Going to Germany next week. Last time I was in Germany, we did cooking issues live from a street corner in Germany. You want to, you want to see whether we can do the live German cooking you should do? Yeah, more off the wall than a street corner. Well, I mean, like, look, honestly, if I'm going to do it, I probably have to do it in the hotel with Skype. Otherwise. I mean, like, we were just lucky that my phone didn't get cut out or I didn't get beat over the head by some sort of angry. you know, ex East German. Uh, last time I did it, but, uh, we love the, the angry XE Germans, by the way, it's no offense. Colin all your cooking questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So, Stas, last week on the show, we had our friend Ariel from UC Davis and Brooks
+
+[1:09] Hedley, the pastry chef that more people need to know about from Del Posto Restaurant. Uh, he got a caller question in, uh, asking about the 7 course vegan tasting menu that they do at Del Posto. Nastasia made her vegan face, which by the way, now I can relate to you all. She would not let me take a picture of it, literally, like, I pulled up the camera maybe eight, 10 times. I caught her once as she was exiting the vegan face, but I couldn't get the full vegan face on camera because she refused to let me get it, but if you've ever seen either the Sopranos or Stephen Van Zandt on his new show, Lilihammer, his angry gangster face scowl, like the kind of bulldog frown, that's pretty
+
+[1:55] much, that's pretty much the vegan face right there. So you can just, It's pretty popular. Even on iTunes, one of the reviews was referencing the vegan face. It's blowing up. Well, and I suspect maybe Nastasia can't even make the real vegan face anymore. No, I can. It's when she doesn't mean to do it. That's when she did. So, like, you could see her true reaction to the vegan lunch. It's like, I don't need to actually ask her. I just look over and see, you know, is Stephen Van Zandt sitting next to me or is Nastasia sitting next to me? And, you know, that's basically how you do it. So, by the way, I'm going to get probably in big... I'm about to get in big trouble with our good friends over at Del Posto, Mark Ladner, and Brooks because here's what they said. They actually enjoy making the, they said, 1st of all, don't publicize the, uh, the, the vegan thing. Thank God, our cadre of listeners. It's loyal, but, you know, we're not there, you know, whatever. We don't have enough visitors to blow up Del Posto, right? Right or wrong. So I'm not going to get in trouble. Well, we'll see. You'll find out. So here's what they said. Any good cook likes a likes a challenge and likes a set of constraints in which they can work and try to get new ideas to try and push their skills, push their talents, right? And this could be anything. Like, so when we did the museum event last year, also at Del Posto. You know, we pushed the bartenders and the cooks into areas they wouldn't normally work by giving them a set of
+
+[3:25] constraints. You're going to work with, you know, this set of ingredients or this time, you know, this
+
+[3:29] time or like, you know, nils, we gave fad diets, et cetera, et cetera. And without exception, every single cook and bartender who worked at that event took the challenge in the exact way that we wanted to and use it as an opportunity to do something creative and interesting.
+
+[3:44] Wiley, in fact, put the dish that he did there, the bone marrow. He put that on his New Year's menus. Brooks did his artichoke thing, I think for a while. So, it's a great thing for any cook to do. Maybe not all the time, but, you know, on occasion to take a challenge, take a set of constraints. And cooking something vegan is just set a set of constraints. And so the guys at Del Posto, uh, really liked, uh, they really, they really like cooking this kind of thing and it actually is on the menu all the time. They have a customer they said who comes in quite often, and whenever that customer comes in, they revamp the vegan menu for them. So it's not the same every time it comes in. This time, unfortunately, also macrobiotic, which listen, you know, I find it very difficult to not offend people, but not eating nightshades is crazy. No tomatoes. You're going to go vegan. Now you're all of a sudden you're not going to have tomatoes, potatoes, or eggplants. I mean, please. You can do without the eggplant, you said. Well, you said, and I agreed. You said, and I agreed. I said, do you like Baba Ganoush, and you said no. I said, do you like, do you like anything with that kind of, no, she said, no,
+
+[4:46] doesn't like bacon barda. She likes eggplant Parmesan, but mostly for the fry, the mozzarella, and
+
+[4:52] the, anyway. One thing I'll have to say is that they should have shifted into liquor earlier. Oh yes, I emailed what's his name and told him that. What's his name? Nice shout out. Jeff Porter. There you go. See? See how much nicer it is to use somebody's name instead of... Okay. So anyway, I'm here to report. Oh, so they said don't popularize it because even though they like cooking it. And this is a challenge to vegans out there. Anyone with a, like that, there's wine glasses right here, Nostache. Uh, to with dietary things out there. You have a reputation among chefs as being difficult human beings with which to work. And so the their issue isn't that they don't like cooking the menu, their issue is that in general, to
+
+[5:43] generalize, the customers who order it can be problematic because they tend to not be people that are interested in food primarily.
+
+[5:52] They're just there to get some, you know, to have a meal and they have these restrictions in which they're working, but the food isn't the primary
+
+[5:59] focus. And cooks prefer to cook for people who like food. Fair? And that's why they told us not to publicize it. Am I saying that without getting anyone in too much trouble? You didn't use the exact language of what they call those people. Now they're those people. Or what? All right, so you say it then. No, no, no. say what they say. They did not insult vegan people. Anyways, my point is it was very good. Unfortunately, it was also macrobiotic, which to me, I mean, someone please call and tell me why macrobiotic stuff is not a bunch of hoo-ha. Anyone, anyone. Colin. I know there's a lot of people out there who love Mac. They had 2 shots of green of green stuff. I do not drink. Actually, we make a very good green drink at the bar. Not macrobotic because you can't have distilled distilled liquor. Uh, but, uh, yeah, those kind of like wheat grassy, like, you know,
+
+[6:46] 11 of the drinks, no offense to Jeff there, because I think he was, they bought it and they did it on purpose just to shaft me. Tasted like I had latched my mouth onto the exit chute of a
+
+[6:56] lawnmower and was riding around the grass, you know, with a lawnmower attached to my mouth. But the meal itself was very, very good. What did you think? It was good for what it was. What the hell is that? I would not go there and get it. Like people who want that, get what they want. get a great meal, right? I thought, I mean, I thought it was a really good meal. Nastasia, 1st of all, is prejudice in this sense. When she goes to an Italian restaurant, if she doesn't leave with her gut busting open, she's like, it's not
+
+[7:26] Italian. Italian food's supposed to be hottie. It's supposed to be a hottie food. You know what I mean? And my point is, it's not necessarily the case. It's so sad to go to Del Posto and not eat a bunch of pasta. It's sad. VW TV. But so my point is that you you have a preconceived notion of what Italian should be and of what Del Posto should be. So you can't divorce yourself from that notion and just look at the food at
+
+[7:48] which as it was presented. What about, you know, I thought the flavors were very, very well balanced, there was nothing that I thought was lacking. There's a lot of use of hiumami, and like protein-based things that weren't meat, like nutritional yeast, which is quite good.
+
+[8:04] Obviously, a lot of mushrooms brought into it, a lot of very, you know, reduced root vegetables, things like that, things to, and I thought everything
+
+[8:14] was, was delicious. I thought the textures were good. I was well balanced. The one thing I don't didn't like were the raw snap peas on it because even though everyone, everyone finds them
+
+[8:23] delicious, except for me because of the raw, the raw starch taste. I do not like pea shoots either, and I might be the only person on earth who does not like pea shoots. And, uh, because I don't like that raw. I don't like that raw taste. Part of the problem with me doing that raw diet last year. I don't like it. You know what I mean? Uh, anyways, so I thought they did an amazing job. The wine was good. When we finally got wine, that was I liked it. Oh yeah, we had an orange wine that was, I guess, you know, which we'll research more. I didn't research it a lot, and Nastasia at that point was dying for great. Speaking of dying for a drink, we have a line
+
+[9:00] here, you're going to have to translate this. What's land of what's kieti? Don't know. I thought you spoke Italian. Now you forgot Italian too? I don't know, you can look it up. Anyway, it's called Passetti. it's Pecorino. Now, Pecorino, for all of you out there, obviously means goat. So is this wine? Jack, this wine literally passed through a goat before it's put in a bottle? I can't confirm or deny that. You can't butt. I don't know. I'm excited to try it. It's from the barter house there. those guys? I was about to say, these are from our good friends at the barter house. And I said this before. It's a province in Italy. Really? There you go. Land of that. Yeah, Kathy is a province. For people who've been listening to the show forever, they're the same people who brought you Booza. Yeah, so they're also bringing you wine passed through a goat. This is a white wine. What's the what's the grape? Is there a grape called goat? What the heck is this? And the king. So here's the deal. So the barter house, for those of you that, if they haven't sponsored a show in a while, mainly because modernist pantry has been sponsoring our show for a long time, but we like the folks at the barter house, and what they
+
+[10:01] are, is kind of a specialty importer that imports wines, kind of unusual and interesting wines. So they're not going to carry a lot of the wines that, you know, that we're familiar with. But one of the one of the good ways to see whether or not you should try a new wine in the store, and it's not just a
+
+[10:18] barhouse. Find, you know, an importer. Someone brings in wines that you like. And in general, these people choose wines that they like that are interesting. So if you don't know the producer, you don't know the grape, you don't know the style, sometimes looking at the back and seeing who's bringing it
+
+[10:33] in is a good indication of whether or not it'd be something interesting to try. And I think it's something that we don't do enough in wine stores. People don't think about the importers or the houses that choose wines
+
+[10:42] or they curate, you know, the selections that they're going to bring over. But I think it's a good way to try a new one. So we're gonna, Nastasia and I, because it's so hot. We're going to have this white wine that's been passed through a goat. Uh, Passetti doesn't actually mean, doesn't mean pass, Passato means pass, right? So what does pacetti mean? is their last name. Oh, that's the name of the people? It's a husband and wife team. Franco and Mima. Meme up a city? So they, so well, hand me my glass so we can try this stuff. We should get to some actual cooking issues here in a minute. Otherwise, this is going to be a show just based on nonsense and drivel. Let's try it. No offense to nonsense and drivel. Wait, what do you think, Stows? It's really sweet, huh? It's not actually sweet. just not like hyper dry and crisp. It's fine. Fine. What do you think, Dave? And what would you pair it with, stars? I would pair it with actually with pecorino cheese. You're such a love. You know what? Whatever. That brings me to another thing. before we get into real stuff. You know, we've been there's been a lot of play recently on recently. like on our show and nowhere else. On, um, on, um, the taste pairing hypothesis, and this hypothesis where, uh, you know, things that have similar molecules, not necessarily
+
+[11:52] similar. Nastasia apparently believes if you name something after a goat, it should go well with goat cheese. It's stuck in my head. But yeah, I think it would go well, don't you? I think almost everything. Okay, so what do you think? I don't know. Like, you know, it's one of those things that has enough acidity to it that it could go well with spicy or like an Asian thing. It not going to get totally cut down. It's not the structure of it isn't like a red that's going to get obliterated. So I could see it with that. Asian thing. What the hell was that? What the hell is that under your breath Asian thing? You just said... Mike is spicy. I'm thinking about it because we were at Pockpock, uh, New York, Pockpock, Brooklyn. Yeah. So now we've become a review show where we're reviewing restaurants we've been to over the past week. But we only we only went to 2 in one day. It's like, we don't do anything together. We don't go out to restaurants. Thank God. Thank God. My wife and I were at the table next to Nastasia, Mark Ladder from Delposto, Brooks, and her friend from
+
+[12:49] Juilliard, Pat, Patrick Posey. Uh, and uh, so, uh, this was, this is Andy Rickers, uh, not Rick Turr, comedian, Andy Ricker, the uh, famous uh, Portland, formerly Portland, now
+
+[13:02] Portland and New York-based, uh, chef who uh, does tie kind of uh, in a different way than I've ever had it in New York and because I've never been to Thailand, so I can't call it authentic, but extremely delicious, extremely great uh,
+
+[13:17] food. And I'd only ever had Pockpock Wing, which is his takeout joint in the Little East side and his food at events. This is the 1st time I got to go to basically a full-scale restaurant of his. And I was, frankly, blown away. I thought it was great. And what do you think, Stas? Yeah, it was amazing. I hate Thai food. Well, okay, when nostalgia says she hates Thai food. Those of you that have ever listened to the show knows that they know that Nastasia is crazy, basically. Here's what she doesn't like about. Here's what she says she doesn't like Thai food. Heres what she means. I don't like lemongrass and I don't like coconut milk, right? And peanuts. I don't know, so what? So there wasn't a lot of that in this food at all. Right. Anyway. That's not my point. My point is, is that Nastasia's crazy. And this restaurant was great. For instance, the thing that, like, something that blew me away is that he served an extremely spicy beef
+
+[14:05] dish, I forget the name of it. Uh, you know, kind of ground meat. And next to it was just a plate of herbs. that were, and these herbs, they look like, you know, a plate of herbs. And I started to taste them and they were unlike any herbs you'd never tasted. Like, when he came over, I basically, I had the waiter call him over because, and Mark 2 is like, look, if you're in the business that I'm in or the market, you're not, no one's supposed to be able to, in New York City, hand you a plate of herbs and have the 1st 4 things you taste off of, be unlike anything that you've ever
+
+[14:37] had and completely foreign to you, such that you have no idea what the hell's going on. That just doesn't happen. Do you know what I mean? Like one or 2 new ingredients, whatever, or new ingredient, but something that's just totally foreign to you like that is crazy, right? Didn't you agree with that stuff? And like this one had the kind of tartness of a sorrel, but a completely different taste. I want to use that in a drink. like, and he gets it, some guy in Florida. Some, basically, I guess, who smuggled seeds from Thailand to Florida and is growing these kind of insane Thai herbs in Florida and then shipping them up to
+
+[15:10] Andy and he guess he gets them on consignment from this guy. I'm going to try to get some for the bar for Booker and Dax. But it's just crazy stuff, good stuff. I recommend going. Uh, okay, enough with the restaurant reviews else, right? Oh, one more piece of news from Booker and Daxland. and then I guess we should go to, yeah, Booker and Dax. Well, it won't be ready for about a month, but we now have Booker and Dax, the company, not the bar. has its own space in the Lower East Side. So look out for us coming in doing some cool stuff on the lower side, correct? Yeah, yeah, it's a small space. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. storefront, which is awesome. It's our own space. So those, you can stop by, like, wave vegetables at Nastasia in the window, she can make her face for you in about a month. And with that, call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[16:13] I know you got another jockey at home. Man, you need to rob it, you, you, you, man, you, now I can go. I really don't care, you too. You got baby Oh, oh, oh, you're never alive, you're never move on. You got your life, we believe that. Oh, you got your life, we breathe. Oh, you got to lie. Now you're never gonna move on. And welcome back to
+
+[16:52] Cornacious. By the way, today's show is gonna be brought to you by the Barter House. Yeah. Jack just told me. Yeah, you wouldn't pay attention. The doctor's like, I don't know. playing Tetris. Anyway, before I go on to some relations, I want to talk about this book, Taste Buds and Molecules about the flavor pairing hypothesis. So I've been basically saying for a while that I think that this flavor pairing hypothesis is bunk, whereby, you know, you take, uh, you know, foods that share specific flavor
+
+[17:20] compounds and therefore you can decide that they actually go well together. And it's, uh, it's a, you know, it's a technique that's gotten a lot of play recently. And so I kind of thought I'd go by, and I, you know, I bought it, a book called Taste Buds and Molecules, written by Francois Chatier, and I think that's how he pronounces his
+
+[17:37] name. I don't know. He's Ketakoa. But he's done a lot of work in France, and he is like a true master. nobody argues the man knows his wine. And, uh, sometime in the early to mid uh, 2000s. He started working on this, working on the idea of flavor pairing, looking up what components were in a wine, the aromatics
+
+[18:01] and wine. And a lot of that stuff is readily actually available because a lot of studies have been done on it due to wine quality issues.
+
+[18:06] And so a lot of food studies have been done on it. And also what, when those same molecules appear in foods and has built a structure of tastings and basically food pairings based on what, you know, what he calls his research into those things.
+
+[18:25] And the result is this book, taste buds and molecules, which also has like a lot of crazy kind of graphical elements. And so I bought it thinking that I was going to hate it, right? Uh, and there are many things about it that I disagree with, but I have to say that he, uh, I mean, he clearly, uh, you know,
+
+[18:48] understands and he clearly, you know, from everything I've read about him. I never had dinner with him or anything, but has a very good palate, right? So this isn't, in other words, it's not something where someone is just saying, hey, look
+
+[18:59] at, here's a bunch of stuff that I saw on a piece of paper, and therefore they're going to go well together, even though I haven't developed a palette. He's coming at it from the direction that I think is a good one, namely, he spent years and years developing his palate, right? His nose, his palate, his senses. And then after those years, uh, then used uh, these kind of pieces of research as a further tool to uh, to get inspiration in areas he hadn't already looked, basically
+
+[19:29] to, to, something to help the light bulb or the chime in his head, say, yes, these 2 things would go well
+
+[19:34] together, and to give him kind of the confidence to put 2 things together that wouldn't ordinarily be put together.
+
+[19:40] And so, uh, to that extent, you know, yes, I think it could be used as
+
+[19:45] a valid, uh, valid thing. And I actually ended up liking, um, liking, like what he was saying more than I thought I would. But on the flip side, I mean, I think this is part of kind of like the, you know, because the book was published in French first, that kind of
+
+[20:03] writing. It's a little more kind of florid, and it kind of takes things a
+
+[20:07] lot, a lot further than I would like and kind of makes much more sweeping comments about, you know, what he's
+
+[20:14] doing and the concepts behind it. than I would like. And so, you know, when I'm working on the cocktail book, I got to guard against that too, not making these kind of sweeping statements. My problem is when any of these things become sort of dogmatic or almost become a
+
+[20:27] religion, the way, you know what I mean? The way that people kind of treat the new concepts. But interesting book. Um, so there's there's that. It's my last word on the flavor pairing hypothesis for today. Now, on to some questions we come in. Hello from Osaka, Japan. We going to Japan soon. Nastasia and I going to Tokyo to work in the Park Hyatt. We're going to be working there for 4 days, right? Plus a 5th press day. And I'm hoping to get the, like, I want the most butt kicking Japanese stuff. I don't want any stuff that I can get here in the States. Me, I do. I want to see like how much better all the stuff that they say is better there. I want to get all that when I'm there, but I want some stuff that you cannot get here. I mean, you know what I mean? You with me on this? They're taking you. They're taking us to the market. and the other one. There's a big fruit market next to it. I'm going to go bonkers. And they're with their credit card? Oh, man, I'm a dangerous person with someone else's credit card. That's as soon as you arrive. for going straight there. So I better sleep. can't sleep on planes. I'll have to drink like 8 loads of espresso, just make like an hour trip to the bathroom and
+
+[21:36] then we'll go off into it, right? Okay. Hello from Osaka, Japan. I have 2 questions. I'm interested in buying a refractometer to use in the field as well as in the kitchen. Some things I would like to be able to do are measure the salinity of a brine to know when it
+
+[21:49] has reached equilibrium, measure the sugar content of produce in the field to know when to harvest. Measure the sugar quantity of produce to determine which provider has the best product. Can one refractometer be used to measure salinity as well as bricks? Do you have any recommendation for refractometers? Are electronic bricks meters better than optical refractometers? Okay. Uh, here's the thing. I've used both electric ones. We have one manufactured by the Hanna Corporation, as well as manual ones. The, for the field. I mean, the thing is, you don't want to be caught out in the field with one and have it break. I mean, the optical ones are fairly bulletproof. I mean, Nastasia did break one of mine. She like shattered the, uh, the, I don't know how the heck she did it. She broke it. No one else has ever broke it. She broke the little flip down screen that goes on. Uh, the handheld ones, the ones that are not um, electronic are uh, a lot cheaper. They're like 32 bucks to get the ones on eBay. They work fine. You need light. you know what I mean? And you need to be able to see through the product somewhat to be able to do it, you know, to use them properly. Those ones, I've never seen one that'll do both salinity and bricks. However, well, you know, you can get just a bricks one and which measures sugar content and get one that is for salinity and they're fairly small and they're fairly
+
+[23:11] cheap. So you can get 2 of them, right? For much less than the cost of one good electronic one. I really like the electronic one for just speed of use and not
+
+[23:21] having, especially in the bar to worry about light. You do have to, with the electronic ones, hold your hand, sometimes over the measurement device so that you don't get errant light
+
+[23:30] problems, if there's too much ambient light, you can't work with it. The electronic ones are better for just crushing up some
+
+[23:38] juice, even if it has particles and throwing on because they're not as thrown off by that and they're easier to read. You can read something in an electronic one that there's a really cute kid looking in through our window, by the way. She's pressing your nose against it and we're waving to the window. Uh, there's a uh, she's wearing some sort of purple flowery thing. Yeah, very cute. Anyway, uh, the uh, so the electronic ones are better at measuring things that you couldn't necessarily, because in a handheld one, you have to be able to flap the glass down. The plastic piece that goes over the reading prism. You have to be able to flap it down and get good contact before you can get a good reading, and you don't need to do that with the with the handheld electronic ones. I do think that the handle electronic ones might break a little easier. The Hannah ones that I have are only calibrated for bricks, right? You could, you could, and mine is, what I like about mine is especially if you're going to be using something for a long time in a lot of different fields and you might be measuring juice one day or fruit one day and syrups the next. Is it my electronic one goes from 0 bricks to 85% bricks, which is really nice. And there are handheld optical ones that have a very wide
+
+[24:44] range, but the problem is, is that those wide range ones, it's hard to get a very accurate
+
+[24:49] reading because the scale is the same length no matter what you do. And so then you have the issue of not being able to discern, find differences in bricks. Now, there are also triple scale manual refractometers. I've never used one, and those, apparently, you can get the accuracy you want in several different scale ranges, but they tend to be more
+
+[25:11] expensive. So instead of like $32, you're talking about $100, $150, and you can get a
+
+[25:17] decent, uh, uh, electric one, electronic one on eBay for uh, on eBay on uh, Amazon or whatnot for, you know, around that price. What do we pay? 260 for a 0 to 85. Now, there is a company. I don't have theirs, unfortunately, called, I believe spare
+
+[25:34] as the company, but you can look it up that has different ranges in the same
+
+[25:39] refractometer, and they will actually program 3 custom ranges into your refractometer for you. So you could get a 0 to 85 bricks refractometer. At the same time, get a salinity meter. And all it's basically doing is changing the calibration within the unit so that you can measure using the same instrument. Another thing you could do is use your bricks refractometer, and then carefully make things of the proper salinity,
+
+[26:05] right? Measure what the bricks is on it, and then you can hit that number every time, even though you're using a brick scale.
+
+[26:12] So you can correct bricks to salinity. And it's hard sometimes to find the published papers for that on the internet, but you can also do that. The last thing I would caution about refractometers in general is that you, you know, you're going to have
+
+[26:25] a, a lot of people make mistakes on refractometers and they think that you can measure bricks and other
+
+[26:31] things in mixed medium. Remember, all that the all that the refractometer is measuring is how what the difference in refraction is as light is passed through a
+
+[26:42] liquid. So what happens is different liquids have different refractive indexes. They bend light a different amount. And a fractometer is measuring typically how much your liquid bends light relative to water. And so um, what bricks is measuring is dissolved sugar, but anything that changes, any solute, anything that's dissolved in it is going to
+
+[27:03] change it. So if you have alcohol, which changes the angle of a fraction,
+
+[27:07] right, if all you have is alcohol, then you can use a refractometer to measure how much alcohol is in the
+
+[27:12] water, if all you have is alcohol and water. If all you have is sugar and water, then you can measure how much, uh, the sugar, how much sugar there is in the water using a fractometer. If all you have is salt and water. Same. If you have salt and sugar, you cannot, because there's no way to figure out what
+
+[27:27] the, what each component is doing to the refractive index independently unless you can measure one of the variables. Same thing with ethanol and sugar, which is why you can't use a refractometer to measure something like
+
+[27:39] quantro, because it's got both sugar and alcohol in it. So there are, you know, limitations to what a fractometer can do for you because it's only measuring one quantity, how much
+
+[27:52] light is bent as it travels through your medium. So, I mean, I hope that helps. But, you know, if I could go back because the spare one's only like an extra $50, but it wasn't on Amazon, I would get the multi-range electronic bricks unit that does 0
+
+[28:09] to 85. They have a wide scale one. I think it's spare, but, you know, whatever. The SPER. I think. I not sure. I would get there one that does the full range from 0 to 85. That going to do 99% of any of the sugar work you want. And they will also do a custom scale. So if you wanted to do, I don't know what you're doing for a living, but let's say you're a distillery or something and you also need to measure or a wine fermenter, and you also need to measure glycol. You have a glycol scale in there so that you can make your glycol solutions, which you would use for anti- when you're
+
+[28:36] using, like, chilling, if you have a chiller, and you need to do glycol, you can put a glycol scale in and a salinity scale. So you could choose any 3 scales. If it was me, I would have bricks, salinity, and ethanol percentage for distilled spirits. I would have those 3 on it. And then you'd have one or factometer, and you'd be good forever. But you might want to back it up with a manual one. The manual one, most people get a 0 to 32 bricks, if you're doing fruit, and much higher fractome, are you much higher bricks level if you're doing anything like sugars or syrups? Because remember, simple syrup, one-to-one simple syrup is running about 50 bricks, right? So you can't measure it on a standard 0 to 32 bricks, uh, uh, refractometer bricks is basically just percentage of the solution that is sucrose, right? And if you're doing 2 to one simple syrup. up at 66 bricks. And so it can get, you know, 0 32 is of limited use in a bar, right? Right, size? Yeah, that's why you bought the 085 for us. And we're quite happy with it, yes? Another piece of equipment we have at the bar. We're very happy with now is we bought best $65. That's not true. I'm lying. It's a good $65. Not the best $65 I've ever spent. The best $65 I ever spent was on my wife's wedding ring. Boom! Kidding. He's not lying. Yeah, I might shoot faster. But, yeah, no, it was a good $65. I bought a 0 to 5 milliliter, basically micro pipe pet, and it's just super accurate. So we use it to dose all of our, like our wine finding
+
+[30:07] agent's queso sauce on kaida sand. And also, when we're making small batches of things to correct things for salinity and whatnot, we can add small
+
+[30:14] amounts that we can then reproduce when we scale it up. So I really like the micro pipet. And we stole that idea from our friend, Tony Conyaro, not the famous dead baseball player from, you know what the story of Tony Conyaro? It's a very famous Tony C, they call them because also Americans. In America, it's Canigliaro, by the way. So Tony, the baseball player was Tony Cunigliaro, not Tony Cunigliaro, the bartender, right? But he was like one of, like, slated to be one of the best baseball players of all time, was, in fact, very good, played for
+
+[30:44] the, for the Bosox. And got, he crowded the plate all the time and got hit in the head with a beaner and like almost like, I think I put him in a
+
+[30:53] coma. He was in the hospital for a long time, never the same, never the same. By the way, what Nastasia is actually doing, the work she's doing is looking up pictures of the chauffeur from Downton Abbey on, uh, I looked over to see like what kind of things she's looking up about the event I'm doing in Germany that we're going to talk about after the next break.
+
+[31:08] And she's looking up. She's looking at the chauffeur, kind of like the least sympathetic character on Downton Abbey. because not the least sympathetic, but I mean... It's not. No, no, what? It's what the stars look like out of costume. But you've already seen that. I know, but I was crazy. This is what I deal with people on a daily basis. All right. The 2nd question from Osaka, from John, is are there antioxidants that are fat soluble as well as temperature stable, up to temperatures around 180 degrees Celsius? Failing that, what is the best practice when storing fats to keep them in their best condition? Two applications I'm interested in are we using very expensive tempura oil and keeping schmaltz without oxidizing, any thoughts? Schmaltz. I love schmalz. Chicken fat is delicious. I've never been to one of the old school restaurants in New York that has schmaltz on the table, like one of the old kosher
+
+[31:53] restaurants, because you can't have butter on the table. Because you can't serve butter in a steakhouse. You can have schmalz. I freaking love chicken fat. So what can you, what can you do? Well, I meant, I forgot that this question had been asked when I saw it last night, so I didn't look up the specific things that are added, but typically, if you buy commercial fry oil, they have an anti-oxidant in them, some sort of like vitamin E,
+
+[32:19] tocophuro-based thing that's fat soluble that prevents oxidation in the oil. And that is very helpful and stable up to frying temperatures. I'll try to look it up during the break or Nastasia can try to look it up now instead of looking up Downton Abbeys before and after pictures. But the, um, And that's why I say commercial fry oil is much, much better than any of the stuff that we buy in the
+
+[32:42] supermarket, uh, because it lasts just a boatload longer and tastes a lot cleaner. They also, in commercial fry oils, do something that you can't do in a home oil, which is they specifically, and temporal oil might be like this. They specifically tailor the fatty acid, mix in it, to have only those fatty acids that are fairly temperature stable and oxidation resistant.
+
+[33:03] That said, obviously the things that cause oil to break down uh, most are, if you get salt in the oil, which is, you know, sometimes, you know, unavoidable,
+
+[33:13] uh, allowing uh, burnt particles to stay in the bottom of the oil while you're cooking, if you don't have a commercial fryer with a cold zone at the bottom, which tempura doesn't work that way, by the way, which is crazy.
+
+[33:22] But whatever. Uh, or, um, if you, um, so those are the main things. You also, like, it's best to use, and this, again, goes against the way I've seen most tempura done, but you really want a very low surface area to volume ratio on
+
+[33:38] your, on the oil because then you have less air contact. You want as little foaming as possible. So not a lot of like, a lot of high water stuff dripping in. Anything that basically is going to promote a lot of amount of oxygen getting into the oil. Also, clearly you don't want any reactive metals like iron touching the stuff because that's gonna that's gonna mess with you. And you want to, as soon as it cools down enough, filter it, and you could, you could, uh, you know, vacuum, you
+
+[34:09] could vacuum pack it, or, like, put it in bottles and then, like, suck the air out of it to prevent any sort of oxidation from taking place. But those are the kinds of things that I would do. The worst thing, though, I see breakdown on oil, especially when it's done in a home
+
+[34:23] fryers, temperature cycling. And there's just very little you can do to prevent temperature cycling except for, you know, I mean, commercial fryers are really what's going to stop you from doing a lot of temperature cycling. Other than that, you could get an induction unit that keeps the oil at a relatively even temperature that has like basically a temperature controller in it that's, you know, keeping the oil tolerances fairly
+
+[34:42] tight, and then not overloading the oil so that you don't have to get the,
+
+[34:46] um, you don't have to have as much of a temperature drop, so you don't need as high of a thermal input to do the instant recovery, and that's going to cause you to have less thermal cycling on your oil, and that's going to increase
+
+[34:55] the uh, the lifetime uh, significantly. In a home frying situation. It's crap floating to the bottom, burning and destroying the oil, salt, but most importantly, temperature cycling that is really killing your oil at a
+
+[35:08] fee rocious rate. Uh, and those are the things I would do. I don't know about it. Are you looking up the vitamin E, the Tokafirol-Bay stuff, or are we still on down adding? No, no, I was doing the German East. All right. Well, okay. So why don't we do this? Well, take a commercial break and we'll see whether Nastasia can find that stuff on the internet. cooking issues.
+
+[36:05] We'll find the soul of the world.
+
+[36:24] Welcome back to cooking issues. Am I back? All right. So, uh, it turns out that, uh, I wasn't able to look it up over the commercial break, but we'll try to find some specific thing that you can go buy in a store to drop into your oil to add as an
+
+[36:40] antioxidant. So, Nastasia, what's this event that I'm doing in El Germany next week? It's called Academia del Ron. And it's a Havana Club event. And you will be there from, you arrive Monday morning and you leave Thursday. I don't know that people need to know my schedule. What am I talking about there? We're talking about yeast in alcohol. Yeah. So here's the deal. So they asked me to do, they asked me to do this event on
+
+[37:08] rum, and I said, fine, but they, they, like, I, you know, I feel like I spend a lot of time trying to become, like, well versed in
+
+[37:16] several things, but the effect of yeast on rum, like, I can think of at least 5 other people that I know personally who know more about this than I do,
+
+[37:25] right? But yet that's what they wanted me to talk about. See, people make the mistake. of, uh, and I'm not saying anything against it. People make the mistake of thinking that I'm a scientist. I'm not. I'm like a gearhead cook that can read science papers, right? So, like, I don't feel like I'm the guy to sit there and talk to you about like any sort of actual research that I've done or anything because it's just not the case.
+
+[37:47] So over the past week and a half I read, I don't know, several 100 pages on the effects of yeast on different, uh,
+
+[37:54] uh, uh, different, you know, on fermentation products. And I've learned a boatload about it, but I still am not an expert in the field on this. So what we, what I had to do was I just basically took a bunch of molasses. I couldn't get the molasses I like, which is Crosby's molasses, which is a... Those bastards. They never got back? Crosby's molasses for any of you have ever been in the in the Northeast New England or Maine. Crosby's molasses is the one molasses that I've had. They're like, my god, is that delicious molasses. Like, I would pour that. You know how like, you ever listen to Louis Jordan? You ever listen to Louis Jordan? Louis Jordan, you know the song is, he is, he's using my baby, or Caledonia, or beware any of those. Louis Jordan. Like big in the 40s, you know, kind of kind of cocktail, kind
+
+[38:38] of like, you know, like, you know, whatever. Like, anyway, like, uh, uh, musician. Uh, you know, musician, anyway. Beans and cornbreaking all that song? Beans and cornbread, you know that? Anyway, Louis Jordan. So, uh, Louis Jordan, what the hell was I talking about Lou Jordan for? What are we talking about? Fermentation. Yeah, but how the hell did I get on Louis Jordan? Molasses. Molasses. So he's like, in the beans and core bread song, he goes together like hot cakes and molasses. And you're like, hot cakes and molasses. Who the hell would put molasses on pancakes? And
+
+[39:07] then, and then once you've had Crosby's molasses, you realize why. But those dumb bastards from Crosby's, they're up in Canada. And by the way, I love you Canadians, but you're a lazy group of people. Just kidding. I'm kidding. He's not. Just kidding. Anyway, but they won't distribute outside of New England. We had the mailers. So... So we wrote them in, well, you wrote them a nice email from me in response to how great their
+
+[39:31] molasses. Yeah, sell it down here. No response back. Crosby's molasses is so delicious. Like when you next time you're in Maine or wherever over there up there in New England way, get some Crosby's molasses and tell me you don't think that's the most delicious molasses that you've ever
+
+[39:45] had. I mean, I don't know, maybe in the Caribbean, maybe they have some delicious molasses. I don't know. But as far as in the continental US, it's the most delicious molasses I've ever had. Anyway, so we didn't use that. We use some sort of like molasses and we're distilling our own. I still, I fermented using 2 separate yeast. Now, when you're, when you're actually doing rum and you're using wild use fermentation, there's, it's not just uh, sacromyces, uh,
+
+[40:07] cervase, which is the normal beer, you know, brewer's yeast, of which there's a bazillion
+
+[40:11] strains, each of which have different, uh, produce different flavors. Uh, but there's like, uh, uh, I forget the names of like schizo, you know, schizo
+
+[40:19] sacramise, cervase, there's like, there's a whole bunch of different yeast range, like 5 or 6, uh, not strange. you know, actual genus species. and then a zillion strains, all of which produce different flavors. It turns out most of the flavorful difference in a fermentation, a lot of the flavorful difference is due
+
+[40:36] to, um, the yeast, right? So think about it this way, Nastasia. If you've ever had, if you ever had wine grapes? Yeah, like to eat? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wine and grapes don't taste like wine. Right? It's very difficult to, like, if you taste, like, Pinot Noir grapes. You're not like, oh, I get it. You know what I mean? That all of the, like the, the most of the flavors that are in there in Pinot Noir are there as precursors,
+
+[41:02] right? that you can't taste, then the fermentation and the different yeasts that are used, bring out the real character. So a lot of the flavor is due to the due to the yeast. It's just I don't happen to be an expert in that. that's what I'm going to be talking about. I think people ask you to talk about these things because you're able to understand it and explain it in
+
+[41:21] an interesting and exciting way. That's very charitable. So that's your special thing for the week. Yeah. So that's that's that's the one nice thing going to say to me all week. So anyway, so over the course of the week, we're going to have to go out and illegally distill
+
+[41:37] the molasses fermentation. By the way, fermented molasses tastes horrible. This black strap molasses stuff tasted horrible. Tasted like iron. I was told by our friend Chris, who's opening a new beer bar in New York called proletariat. Proletariat. Nastasia gave the proletariat face. She hates the vegans and the people. about your MTV, your MTV Belvedere drink. Did you guys talk more about that yesterday? No, do you tell me about it. The Red Bull that you're going to make? Oh, Nastasia signed us up to do a Jersey Jersey Shore. For those of you that don't have the don't have like haven't been outside. There's a show called Jersey Shore, which I actually haven't seen, but I saw the thing on YouTube where the guy punched the lady out. Yeah, that's Snooki, right? Anyways, I haven't seen the show. Have you seen the show? You have I actually watched an episode? This is serious. Like last week, I watched an episode for the 1st time. It's good. It's funny show. It's a funny show. I'm pro. One of our favorite lawyers is from the Jersey Shore. Yes. Vadim. Yeah, good guy. Anyway, um, so um, Nastasia signed us up to do an MTV party with uh, uh, Evan Freeman. Uh, and uh, it's going to be a Jersey Shore party. And so Nastasia wants us to do a high-end vodka Red Bull. Yeah. So we're working on it, but I don't know what Red Bull. I don't really know much about Red Bull. No, we need a... We need to look it up. Yeah, yeah, we'll take that stuff up. anyway. Oh, by the way, we got some shout out from John who asked the 2 questions on Osaga says, loves the show. Thank you. So much, and this is in general about the world. Here we go. With so much knowledge, this is John talking. with so much knowledge being spread around. I don't think there's ever been a more exciting time to be a cook. In Japan, it was commonly accepted that the price you pay to become a cook is your youth. kind of nicely said. In 5 years, I've been able to learn what would normally take 10, and on top of that, I know the why behind the how, which seems to be a very uncommon thing in Japan. Whoa, boom, I'm going to have to have some talks about that when we're in Japan, huh? Uh, behind the house, uh, seem to be very uncommon Japan. So here is a thank you for you guys and everyone else sharing what they know. And it's true. We would not have what's going on today without the increase in kind of sharing of information
+
+[43:47] that's been made possible by, you know, the, it's not,
+
+[43:52] it is the internet. Like obviously it's obviously it's the internet, internet. But I think it's other things. I think that, and I've had some conversations with some European chefs, especially in America, but also among Spanish, just
+
+[44:06] like this extreme desire to share what people know and to be generous with ideas that is in the
+
+[44:14] Cook community. You know what I mean? You agree? But for instance, Tim Row, the Michelin star chef in the Germany, which where I'll be next. Hey, he's in Berlin. Maybe I should see him. I'm in Berlin. Anyway, he, uh, he, um, He said in Germany, the chefs
+
+[44:29] don't, like, they don't, like, hang out and give each other ideas. weird, huh? too bad, too bad, too bad, too bad. Okay. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. Jack, you got the shout out on this one. Uh, this is, uh, if you want someone to know who it's from, this stuff. You gotta look this up. Oh, from Tony Harrion from Mixing Bar in Brazil. I read a post on Academics, our good friend Camper English, the blogger. I read this post on academics about the production of Quantro, because he visited the Quantro distillery that says, when they
+
+[44:55] add water to reduce Quantro to proof, the essential oils and the peel, because it's Quantro's orange peel, distillation along with neutral grain spirit, caused the liquor to
+
+[45:03] louche, to get cloudy. Like when you add water to absinthe. They centrifuge the quantro to make it clear again, which I did not know. The same happens, and this is now it's Tony talking. The same happens when we wrote of app, citrus peels, and other spices and dilute it to proof. Other than the centrifuge, what can be done to separate the compounds that fall out of solution when you dilute liquids with high concentrations of essential oils? Can you think of any other way to stabilize or avoid the precipitation or loose without the centrifuge? And then how good does your centrifuge need to be to achieve loose separation in G's or RPM? Uh, lastly, to make liquors in this fashion, do you recommend adding water to reduce the
+
+[45:38] proof, and then adding the sugar, or use a weak sugar syrup, or both at once, with or without the centrifuge of the step? Let the show keep up the great work? Cheers, Tony Harrien from mixing bar in Brazil, which when I go to Brazil, we got, well, we got to find someone who will pay to get us to Brazil.
+
+[45:52] And then after we do that, we'll visit them. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. One, by the way, this is anyone who wants to get the cooking issues crew down to
+
+[46:02] Brazil. Keep this in mind. I don't know what it costs for a plane ticket down there, but
+
+[46:07] polycience circulators are twice the cost. In Brazil, as they are
+
+[46:12] here, So what we can do, if you want a circulator, right? If you can find some company to pay for us, we can buy the circulators here, bring them
+
+[46:19] down as personal equipment for the events and then do a swap down there. Just hand. And you might need help carrying them. So you know, I'm here. Yeah, yeah, just saying. Just saying, just an idea for all you people in Brazil. If you're trying to get around the tax problem of getting a circulator into the
+
+[46:34] country, and you know a company that wants to ship a bunch of tech knuckleheads down there to talk to
+
+[46:38] them, that's
+
+[46:42] about to see you break even. You break even. Yes. Yes. Well, with that, when it comes to getting a mustache, a trip to Brazil, blinding speeding. Blinding. Ask her about Toko Firo. What? What's that? Crickets are in the background. Jesus. All right. I hear my feeling, Tony. I have this happen a lot with, I mean, we do it, we do a distillate, because Thai basil is like one of my favorite beverage flavors, so we do one that's Thai basil, orange, cucumber, and a little bit of cilantro, and that thing
+
+[47:12] looshes out and goes white, like very quickly. I think it's not so much the orange peel in that because we don't add a lot. I think it's probably the Anafo, which is the same
+
+[47:21] thing. It's causing lushing in a pastise because there's a good bit of that in Thai basil. You know, that licorice flavor. By the way, in that taste buds and molecules book, like one of the interesting things is that there's a, I think it's Esther goal, it's a compound
+
+[47:34] that shared that's in fennel. Actually, one of those compounds is in Apple to a certain amount. Maybe, this is the thing. The book actually gave me some interesting concepts. Harold McGee and I years ago when we went to Geneva. Harold McGee's going to be in town later this week. Harold McGee, we're going to eat search drumming with nils, got to set that up. On my wife's birthday, though. might be problematic. So we had some apples that grew on the tree that had a huge fennel note to
+
+[48:01] them, and then the fennel dissipated very quickly, but probably due probably to that volatile molecules. Anyway, so like that book actually brought up some interesting stuff in my head, brought back some taste memories I had.
+
+[48:10] So anyway, kudos to that, whatever. Uh, uh, when you dilute them to proof, they are
+
+[48:15] going to lush out. Um, even if you, I've had ones that I've done that too, and then let's sit for several months and they, they basically they separate over time as well. My feeling is, I don't know, here's the thing. Whenever I've tasted these things straight out of the centrifuge. I mean, sorry, straight out of the roto app. I love the flavor of them fresh so much that I wouldn't want to kind of, I wouldn't want to change
+
+[48:42] them and I don't mind the, I don't mind the, the lushing. I don't mind the pastice effect. I kind of like it. It's kind of a signature of that you made this product and that it has so much, like, of these essential oils in it that they can't be held in solution when the proof
+
+[48:56] goes up. Instead of diluting to proof. I would I almost always keep my, unless I'm going to serve it straight. like an occavite, I almost always, and that,
+
+[49:08] I, I've had occavites that go, go white on me because we get so much, uh, so much essential oil in them from the
+
+[49:14] roto app. I almost always keep them at rotovat proof, which for us is between a buck and a buck 20. So about 60%. And we keep it there until we're about to use it and then let it loose
+
+[49:27] out and it's more stable on the flavor. If you don't want to do that, I don't know how I don't think it would take that many G's, but I think it would take quite a long time because the particles when you're looshing are very, very small.
+
+[49:39] And so you have to wait for them to kind of coalesce, aggregate, and become larger before you can get them to settle out. So I think probably centerfusing and time are needed. Another hard part about throwing in the centrifuge is that you
+
+[49:53] remember these are these are oils and they float to the top. And so you, um, that's my guess, it would float to the top. And so when you spin them, you'd be in this position of siphoning them off the top or getting the stuff out of the bottom, which may or may not be a difficulty because they're not going to go solid if you freeze it the same way that I can do with nut oils or coconut
+
+[50:13] oil. Uh, so anyway, so uh, those are, those are my, those are my thoughts uh, on that. Okay, last question in, because apparently we have to wrap it up because, you know, Jack's got other things to do. Other shows, other shows. Okay. Uh, five. Five-fifth questions apparently today. why do you number them? Because I don't ever do them in order anyway. Like, why put numbers on them? What do you want instead? I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, just people don't care. I don't know why I asked. Okay, Andrew writes in and says, uh, what is your, I have actually 2 things. What is your recipe for pressure cooked mustard caviar? I cannot seem to find one online by you yourself. Thanks, Andrew. Here's my recipe. Uh, pressure cooked um, mustard seeds are awesome. They pop like caviar. They're delicious. Even nastachio likes. She hates everything I cook. That's not true. See, I'm just messing with her because I can. Okay. 1st thing with the mustard seed. I use the yellow mustard seeds. I blanch them quickly and a couple of like 2 times or 3 times in boiling water for a couple seconds apiece to get
+
+[51:13] rid. It does get rid of some of the pungency so much so that you can almost get away with not purchasing cooking, but it's not the same thing.
+
+[51:19] We've done the test, right? But it gets rid of some of the dirty, musty taste that I don't really like in a mustard seed. So we blanch horseradish as well beforehand to get rid of some of that earthy taste. Then you pressure cook them afterwards in straight vinegar. I use distilled vinegar. I pressure cook them for between 15 and 20 minutes at 2nd ring in excess
+
+[51:42] vinegar. They're going to soak up a lot of vinegar so you don't want to go light on the vinegar. Then you drain them and while they're hot, you stir in, I use white, you can use whatever you want, but I use white granulated sugar to taste. The sugar will dissolve in with the vinegar that's still on the outside of the mustard seed. Don't want to add vinegar beforehand. It's going to become a goopy mess. Add the vinegar after it's cooked and drink while it's still warm. hot, preferably, and just keep tasting it. And then you pack it in its residual juice. If you save a little bit of vinegar, you can add a little bit in a quart container and it lasts for a long time. So that's that recipe. And we have one other suggestion in before I leave because I'd be remiss. We had a question last week regarding thermocouple probes, and our good listener, Elliot Papineau, called in a response and said, I use a dual probe, alarm meter, from www. thermalworks.com, uh, and it's a
+
+[52:35] cool dupe, dual probe, uh, thermocouple thermometer. Uh, and they have some cool looking pros, the probes aren't cheap, the thermometer is, so there you have it. Elliot likes it. Tell us whether you like it too. See you next week, hopefully from Germany. cooking issues.
+
+[52:55] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[53:12] Radio Network in the iTunes Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[53:18] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got my head all twisted. And I can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Your Shoes. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to your live. In the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Joining the studio as always. Nastasio, Hammer Lopez. How you doing, sis? Fine, how are you? All right. Nastasia is trying to contact someone to set up one of our 8000000000 events. How many events do we have this? How many do we have today? Only one today. Yeah, but Bobby Flay's going to be at the bar at 6 filming. I know, but we won't be there. But you should be there. I'm going to be there. Our event starts at six. Mr. Tam right after this. But no one knows what we're talking about. No, just letting you know. Nastasia's like, and my and my brother Phil, he was, no, no one knows who we're talking about. Mr. Tam is the contractor at the new booker in Dak space. I mean, nice to speak on the air, you know, can't wait 15 minutes to tell me off the air. It's okay. 15. 15. We go on break every 15 minutes. Also joined with Jack. Intrepid Jack. How you doing, brother? good. Good, calling all your questions live too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I missed you guys last week because I was in Germany and we couldn't get the scheduling going with the, you know,
+
+[1:28] because I was actually, I think, teaching something or doing some sort of judging during the actual radio program.
+
+[1:33] But had a good time in Germany. didn't get to have any really good, solid, real German, German food because I didn't have time to go out to any kind of good restaurants, which is not, I went out to good restaurants. I didn't go out to like a hardcore German German restaurant. I love German food. You like the German food? German food? Oh, you know why? Because it's hearty. You love some hardy, hardy food. Um, did, it was interesting. The contest I was judging was for a Havana Club, which, you know, is a rum. There is a Havana Club rum here in the United States, but it's not the actual Havana Club. The actual Havana clubs made in Havana, and therefore we can't get it in the United States, which is kind of an irritant. But, you know, they got to straighten that crap out. how long can we hold a grudge against those guys? I mean, it's been like, it's been like what? Like, uh, see, 40, 50, like 50 years almost? 50? 50 freaking years? We been holding a grudge against these guys? I mean, I don't really care about the cigars one way or the other, but it would be nice to get the rumen. You know, you can take planes there, apparently, now much more easily than you did before. You don't need to like pretend. It used to be to take a plane from Cuba. There was like 2 planes a day or something like that, and you had to pretend that you were a journalist or some sort of crazy nonsense, but apparently now it's okay. Uh, spend a good deal of time when I was in Germany with uh, Ryan. I'm not going to pronounce his last name right. He's another C last name from London, so I can pronounce Connell Yaro for some reason, I can do that. But Ryan's last name from the Worship Street Whistling Shop. Used to work with Tony, actually, Tony C at 69. Ready? Chete, Chete, ya wardana. Whoa. It's hardcore. Even he says he can't pronounce his name properly. And check this out. He's doing some interesting stuff. like he's, you might know some of the bar stuff. he's doing because he has a balloon and then he has like a lemon, I think, essence sprayed on. He then, like, lights a string, the balloon flies up in the air and explodes over your head, like as he serves you to drink. Int interesting stuff. He's aging aging drinks with radioactivity. He's like handing him to, you know, people who are, I guess, doing radiation experiments either for food or for medicine and, you know, nuking the hell out of stuff to see whether he can accelerate it. interesting stuff. I look forward next time in London to go to the bar. Anyways, so what was I talking about? Just talking about Ryan. Is that right? Oh, anyways, check this out. Dude's from dude's family. I mean, he's, you know, he's British, right? Dude's family from Sri Lanka hates spice. Says he is like a complete pariah at family gatherings. Like black pepper is too spicy for him. It's messed up, huh? Messed up. Anyway, we were talking roto app because he's got roto apps coming out of his ears, as most people tech people in London, dude. We going to get the new road of app? We might get a new road of app. That's just 2 hours emailing. Really? Nice. Anyway, let's start... Oh, we're going to wrote of that stuff in Japan. Nastasia and I are going to Japan in how long? Like 3 weeks? Yeah. Anyways, we're gonna roto that stuff there? Oh, man, it's gonna be a freaking nightmare. All right. see how it works. Okay. First in from Bjorn, in Sweden, in Umea, I guess is how you pronounce the name, right? Because the A with the little dot over the top is all, which means river, I
+
+[4:34] think, in Swedish. Question on wild game. Hi, David, my name is Bjorn and I am a chef in the north of Sweden. I have a problem when I, Brian, Wild game, especially reindeer and Lagapus, which is what they call grouse, Lagapus. good one I normally do a solution between 4 and 10% with normal salt, sodium chloride. But when I cook the meat in low temp, I get a gray line around the meat. Maybe 2 or 3 millimeters, depending on the time and the percent of the solution. It seems that the line gets more present on darker meat, especially when you cook low temperature. With normal frying and cooking, it's harder to see. If I use nitrates to get a pink line, I get a pink line, I don't want to do that. I've done some testing using ascorbic acid and citric acid with no result. What can I do best regards Bjorn? Okay, now listen, this is actually a big, a big problem in general. One of the reasons that we don't recommend, uh, salting pre-salting on a lot of low temperature meat. We're brining, for that matter, is it changes the texture of the meat as it's cooked over a
+
+[5:29] long, a long period of time. But, um, color also can be uh, quite, quite affected. In fact, the color of meat is due in large part to the state of myoglobin, which is one of the proteins, you know, in the
+
+[5:44] meat, as it's cooking. So there's three, you know, there's many actually, but there's, you know, some of the main kinds of myoglobin that we deal with are deoxymyoglobin, which is what something looks like inside of a vacuum bag.
+
+[5:56] That's myoglobin with kind of no oxygen bound to it. There's, um, oxymyoglobin, which is the bright pink red color you get from what we associate with kind of fresh meat.
+
+[6:06] And then there's met myoglobin, which is basically a reduced form of it's like, you know, it's a different iron oxide that gives it kind of the brown, brown color. Now, Salting, right, affects several of these things. First of all, when you cook meat low temperature. When you cook meat in a vacuum bag, 1st of all, you're cooking with you're reducing the oxygen compound so much that you get a lot more deoxymyoglobin than you would under normal circumstances.
+
+[6:34] And that takes a long time to denature it. It actually denatures slower, under heat than either oxymyoglobin or met myoglobin does. So that's why, in low temperature meets, also, the slower you heat it, the less the, any kind of myoglobin denature. So that's why in low temperature cooking, especially in high vacuum vacuum bag cooking, you can get kind of very kind of pink
+
+[6:55] results, even at higher temperatures, because you're not going to, and also when you cut the meat, it's going to cherry up and get this bloom because you're not going to get denature as much of the myoglobin as you would otherwise.
+
+[7:06] Now, salting does 2 things. It increases the rate of met myoglobin, which is brown kind of production, right? And it also increases the rate at which myoglobin is denatured and takes on a cooked look.
+
+[7:20] So, like, by a lot, by more than double. Uh, and, and that effect is more pronounced at lower temperature cooking than it
+
+[7:28] is at higher temperature cooking. So the study to look at here is, um, it's fun. the effect of muscle type, salt, and pH on cooked meat, hemoprotein formation in lamb and beef, which came out in 1999.
+
+[7:43] And so it's just, it's right there. You can read it. It's the adding salt rapidly increases the rate at which myoglobin is going to get denatured. That effect is going to be magnified at low temperatures. And so having the salt in there is going to give you more of a cooked color and give you a line, a color line in that
+
+[7:59] meat that there's really kind of no way around. But one of the good news is, is that you might not need to brine your meat as
+
+[8:07] much, or at all, really, if you're doing low temperature cooking, because you don't need to protect the meat against overcooking. Now, if you're doing it for flavor, that's one thing, but, you know,
+
+[8:18] you know, not going to affect it. Another problem is, is let's say you were going to marinate for flavor, use a brine like an acid. The lower the pH. Also, uh, the, uh, faster the hemoglobin is going
+
+[8:29] to, um, faster the, uh, sorry, the myoglobin is going to denature. So you can't win by putting an acid in. You can't win necessarily by putting an antioxidant in like you did. It's just one of the things. If there's salt there and you're low temperature cooking, you're probably going to see a line to the extent that salt is soaked into the meat.
+
+[8:48] So that's all there is to it. They did in that study, which you should look at. They also tested to see whether they're adding fat, change the rate, maybe to help you out. It did not. They also added polyphosphates, soy proteins, casing, and none of these things had any effect on the rate of myoglobin
+
+[9:05] denatration, which is, I believe, what's causing the problem. Uh, so that's uh, that's that. What do you think? Also, salt can increase the rate of lipid oxidation. Can will increase the rate of lipid oxidation in meat. Anywho, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, Nastasia and the rest. How you guys doing? Doing all right. What up? Hey, um, before I ask my question, I want to say, uh, thanks for the
+
+[9:28] next stimilization, uh, thing on your blog I made, uh, corned beef tacos for St. Patrick's Day with, uh, rye tortillas. It was awesome. Oh, I love the rye tortillas with corned beef. That's sweet. That's a great idea. They were good? They were awesome. grinding it, of course, is a problem. I tried, you know, a mortar and pastelone. didn't work. What I ended up doing was uh, just putting all the rye berries in a blender with enough water to make a puree out of it, and then I added just enough of
+
+[9:56] that uh, maseca. Uh, to thicken it back up again, but still had tons of rye flavor, and the, the texture was so great. Even fried, you know, for crunchy tacos, had just a great, great chew to it. I think that's a great idea, adding the mistake of back, because really, the only reason that you need the hardcore grinding, um, you know, implements like
+
+[10:16] the corona, which doesn't even work that well, or like, you know, the, the, um, the really, you know, the big professional
+
+[10:22] jobs, is because to grind it at home in a processor or blender, you really need to add more water than you can to make a
+
+[10:29] tortilla. But adding the Maseca back is genius way to get around that. And I think, you know, well within the bounds of, I mean, like, mistake, like, as much as I gripe about it in the, in the article, it's not a,
+
+[10:43] it's a, it's not a horrible product. It's just, and it sounds like it's a, man, it sounds like a great plan. I'm glad that worked. I might do that from now on, make my life easy. I hate using that corona grinder. Yeah. Hey, how'd your rum talk out? Oh, rum talk went, well, I, uh, you know, I was, I didn't talk about it. When I was in Germany, I was supposed to be talking about and was talking about the effect of yeast on
+
+[11:04] distillation because everyone who does homebrewing kind of knows that yeast really affects, like what yeast you use affects the flavor of the beer that comes out, but a lot of people don't think about it when it applies to distilled beverages.
+
+[11:16] So what I did was I took the same crappy Whole Food molasses. It wasn't crappy, whatever. I't mean to insult it, although it was crappy. And then, um, took 3 identical batches, pasteurized them
+
+[11:26] all, and pitched uh, 2 different yeast into it, and then did it at 2 different temperatures to show the effects that the yeast does.
+
+[11:33] And the yeast is, I mean, the a huge majority of the flavors that are produced in a lot of distilled beverages, the esters, the fusel oils, all
+
+[11:41] these, all the conjurers that we think about, with the exception of just pure molasses aroma or
+
+[11:45] canaroma, come from the yeast. And so I think it was really kind of an eye opener to some people to see, you know, kind of how important particular yeast strain
+
+[11:53] is, which is why people are kind of proud of it. But have you ever visited a distillery? When you visit distilleries, they never talk about their yeast, they go right past, they maybe they let you taste the fermentation, they show it to you, but they don't make a big deal out of it. The way they make a big deal about their stills or the way they make a big deal about the raw materials that go
+
+[12:09] in and it's really kind of a vital thing. So the talk went well, in other words. Yeah, I used to be a head distiller at a run distillery, and we did a lot of experimenting with, uh, we were doing like fermenting with German
+
+[12:20] heefe vies and yeast and, uh, you know, uh, British, uh,
+
+[12:25] fruity, British ale yeast at high temperatures to try to get different character, and they were just wildly different. uh, not only just the flavors, but the distillates themselves, we're just, you know, one would be just full of
+
+[12:36] acetone and the next one would have virtually none. So it was really interesting. Huh, are you allowed to say who you used to do still with? Uh, it's a rum distillery in New Orleans, called the celebration distillation. We make New Orleans drum and uh, yeah, we even tried, we, we found this dry yeast that's uh, isolated off of Guatemalan sugarcane, and it was, you know, to make the rum agricole, and it was, just so
+
+[13:01] phenolic and plasticky that no matter how tight of a cut we did it. It was just really too much. But it was fun experimenting with all that. Yeah, I mean, the tough part, I guess, is like, you know, I was talking to the Havana Club guys, and, you know, they, um, you know, they make a big deal about getting their own yeast off the off the cane that comes out of the
+
+[13:20] field then, but then they need to be consistent, and that's the big pain in the butt. That's why you can't go totally wild on this stuff and why no one, you know, none of the big players can go totally wild because if they go totally wild, there's no way they're
+
+[13:31] going to get a consistent product out of it. So then they're put in the position of kind of propagating a particular yeast strain over the course of years, which then becomes, you know,
+
+[13:39] difficult, I guess. I mean, I don't they don't talk about that aspect of it. They make a big deal about their yeast coming from, you know, their area being kind of endogenous to their area, but they
+
+[13:50] don't, uh, are indigenous to their area, but they don't, um, you know, they don't talk much about how it's, you know, kind of kept as a culture over time or kind of how many strains of yeast there are in it, you
+
+[14:00] know? Yeah. So, um, my question is, I'm, uh, I'm looking to start a small craft soda business, and um, I've got a lot of good recipes already, like a ginger habanero
+
+[14:13] soda, and a cucumber Thai basil soda, and my question is, uh, you know, with a lot of the, like the cucumber and watermelon, I mean, it tastes
+
+[14:22] awesome, and the color's beautiful, but if it sits overnight, all the particulate matter settles
+
+[14:27] out. Right. So what do I need to add, to add? is it like guargum or something like that? Is there anything, because I want this to be as, you know, natural as possible. Is there anything that's not going to scare people off to see it on the uh the label? of a. So you want to keep the stuff suspended? Yeah. Well, I mean, you can add, I mean, I mean, the problem is, is that anything that's going to keep it suspended is going to also, I mean, obviously you're going for kind of low levels of carbonation.
+
+[14:59] Otherwise, you're going to get massive foam out anyway with the particular matter that's in there, but there's, you know, you probably don't want to move to something like a PGA
+
+[15:07] Pectin. I mean, certain pectins would do the job suspending. I mean, that's what I spend most of my time obliterating pecked and to try and desuspend everything that's in it. You know what I mean? So depending on the particle size that you have, I mean, if it's stuff that'll pass through a coffee filter, for instance, it can easily be suspended with pectin. Now, the next, you know, thing down is you could, I mean, I wouldn't want to go in a soda because I don't like what happens to the body of it, but, uh, you know,
+
+[15:32] are you suspending big things or small things, like big pieces of herbs or like just it just... Yeah, like I'll juice a cucumber and strain it out through a fine strainer
+
+[15:42] and, you know, mix maybe like a Thai basil tea in with it. And, uh, but just all, you know, it's, it's, the particles are, are, big enough, I guess,
+
+[15:54] where, are small enough where they'll go through a fine mesh strainer. Right. And, and it'll, it'll be in solution for a day, but, you know, if I'm serving this in draft, you know, it's all going to settle to the bottom of the keg.
+
+[16:07] Oh, so you're not, you're not bottling it. You're just putting it in a keg. Just, yeah, I'm going to just do Cornelius kegs and, you know, sell it as a kind of an alternative to craft beer for people who are, you know, trying to, you know, sober up at the end of the night or just people who like, you know, interesting sodas, but, you
+
+[16:25] know, Right. I mean, one thing to do is you treat it. I mean, obviously, you know, you're a distiller in a brewery, treat it like a beer and racket, but do you like the flavor of it better before with the particles in it? Do you like the look and flavor of the particles or you want to try and think of a way to get rid of the flavor of the particles? I mean, you could just go a wine finding route, racket, and then get that all of that stuff out of there and be left with a clear, clear soda, in which case you could up the volumes of CO2 that you pump into it as well and get more of a bite out of it from a CO2 standpoint.
+
+[16:55] You know, the flip route is to try and stabilize it. I would guess if you want a really good label declaration with something like that. This is just a straight up guess because I hadn't haven't thought about it is some form of pectin. Um, you know, similar to, I mean, like, think about all the crud that's sitting in grapefruit juice, and that stuff is totally stable. Do you know what I mean? And it's basically because of pectin. Um, you know, and other suspended kind of plant, uh, you know, matter in there. hemicellulose infection. So I would bet you could get some sort of stabilization that way. Um, I haven't researched, particularly what product, but like, you know who would what you would talk to on that is the guys at CP Kelco. CP Kelco, they make all of the, um, you know, they're like the pectin people. Um, and so, you know, and they're fairly helpful. So they would probably have some sort of product that you could use. If you want to go like a straight hydro route. I mean, the good thing about pectin, fantastic label declaration, you could just say what it comes from,
+
+[17:49] like citrus, citrus peel or apple pomace or whatever in the hell. you know what I mean? But, um, and then the other people who I would talk to on stability. And CP Calco also handles some of the other stability stuff. I mean, FMC biopolymer, they handle a lot of the beer stuff, but I don't think you want to go, like I said, PGA, like
+
+[18:08] propylene glycolalgenate, all that stuff, kind of head stabilizers for beer and things like that. I don't think you want to do that. And I don't think you want to add so much body because it's going to be a real huge problem on foam out to do something like a gum Arab
+
+[18:18] Xanthan mix, which is what we use as our main emulsifier. Now, Gum Arabic is a good emulsifier and might hold stuff in, I don't
+
+[18:25] know, though. It's not really a thickener. You know what I mean, but that was used to stabilize soda emulsions, but I don't know that it's going to stabilize stuff from sinking.
+
+[18:35] It's more of an emulsifier in case you had fats and oils in it. You know what I'm saying? Uh, then TIC gums, uh, you know, they're pretty good and they spend a lot of time thinking about label declarations and they might have a good way to go. You know, Scott Reeffler's their guy out on the west coast, and I don't know, I don't remember who is here on the east coast, but they have a lot of proprietary blends, which are, you know, might be a monetary issue for you if
+
+[18:59] you were a huge producer, but, you know, if you're not a huge producer, then the cost is going to be negligible based on the fact that you're juicing fresh cucumbers.
+
+[19:06] You know what I mean? So, um, so I would hit up CP Kelco, see whether they have a pectin product for you. I would hit up TIC gums and see whether they have a straight up stabilization, and then as a last resort, I would go to FMC biopolymer. All right, I'll look into those. Any, uh, I remember before in a previous show, you had talked about, uh, like coriander and green Thai chili soda or
+
+[19:28] something, if any other interesting flavors, you could, uh, throw my way. Oh, I don't know. Well, really expensive ones, but that one's good. In fact, we're using that one tonight. We're making a drink. We doing a lucky rice event tonight, and we're doing we're making an old-fashioned with that coriander syrup. You know, in general, for us at Booker and Dax, we like to stock one or 2 syrups around that are dual purpose, so I
+
+[19:47] can, we can use the coriander fun old-fashioned, and then I can also make a soda out of it. You know what I mean? So like we always have, you know, I always have a clarified lime juice sitting around so we can always make a lime soda if we needed to. Um, you know, obviously, but, you know, the stuff that the Nastasia and I have done in the past before we had a bar, uh, has been extraordinarily expensive stuff, like straight strawberry juice and raspberry juice, you know,
+
+[20:11] turn into a soda. Delicious. Remember that one it does? Straw buncle soda? Yeah, that stuff's amazing. Fantastically expensive though. I don't know what you'd have to charge someone to serve that as a soda. You know what I mean? I mean, I'd have to charge like mixed drink prices or more even. And then people would be like, I'm paying 14 bucks for a freaking soda. like, well, there's 2 pints of blueberries in it. What do you want out of me? You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm looking to do kind of like similar prices to a pint of beer, you know, 354 bucks for a pint of, you know,
+
+[20:38] craft soda. Right. So you want to stick with stronger flavors that you don't have to put as much in and then have the majority of what goes in be water. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. All right, thank, uh, do you have time for 11 question? and then we got to go to a break. Okay, um, I was wondering about uh, Parities and Digest, Steve. Um, do you think that it really works? Is alcohol good for, does it impe- impede digestion and uh, or does it stimulate digestion or
+
+[21:10] is is basically alcohol bad for digestion? And if you have any favorite Paritis and Tai Testifs? Huh. I've never thought of that. Whether it actually doesn't, because I discount all health claims in general for everything at all times. So I've never actually thought about it, but I'm sure someone has done the study of kind of rate of digestion and alcohol consumption both before and after.
+
+[21:32] What do you like to have before a meal? Do you like, you like it? You don't really do that kind of stuff, right? I mean, I like Campari. Yeah, that's true. I like a Campari beforehand. And afterwards, I, you know, I don't, I don't go for like the,
+
+[21:46] like, upset stomach pound some for net afterwards or, like, you know, the late night for net shot that all the bartenders go for, but I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I'm going to think about that one though and come back. In fact, if you send a question to Nastasia for next week's radio show, I'll try to remember to do some actual research on alcohol and digestion,
+
+[22:03] all right? Okay, thanks, man. All right, thank you. All right. Hey, Jack, you want to go to our 1st commercial break? Yep. Let's do it. Oh, turn me on.
+
+[22:20] Bump, bump, bump, baby, bump, bump, bump. You get it. We'll
+
+[22:30] bounce on. It's all right.
+
+[22:38] music my bad now.
+
+[22:54] Bub, bub, bub, bub Bootsie. Oh, hell yeah, Jack. That was a good call. What album is that? Uh, I'll check it out in a minute. I not sure what album it's from. Bootsies rubber band. Hell yes. I love Bootsie. You know, Boots, he's still playing. Still out there with the star colored bass and the star shaped glasses. Amazing dude. Stretching out in Bootsie's rubber band. That's the album, yeah. I tell you something. If you don't like Booty Collins, you just have some severe problems with you. Like, your butt's broken. Your funk motor is busted. You need to turn that son of a bitch on and go out and listen to some bootsie. Anyway, today's show is brought to you by Chris? Who's it brought to you? Tell it, Today Show is brought to you by Modernist Pantry. You're back. We love you. We missed you. We missed you, modernist pantry. Supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients in packages that makes sense for the home cook and enthusiast, and most costs only around 5 bucks. Saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocoloids, pH buffers or even meat glue, you'll find it at modernist pantry. And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you with inexpensive shipping to any country in the world. There's got to be some country he won't chip to. Maybe. Hey, listen, here's a challenge. All you suckers out there, go try to come from a country that he will not shift to. There got to be something. Cuba. Zimbabwe. We'll talk about that later. Okay, if we have time, we'll talk about our Zimbabwe trip later. Anyway, oh, whatever. anyway, we'll talk about it. All right. Within expensive shipping to any country in the world. Modest pantry is your one-stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry carries, versa whip, 600 K, a modified soy protein, which is a great replacement for egg whites and gelatin and whipped applications like meringue, mousse, and other
+
+[24:45] hotter cold foams. Fans of cooking issues that place an order of $25 or more before next week's show, we'll get a free package of versa whip to play with. Simply use the promo code CI 81 when placing your order online at modernestpantry.com. Visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. So there are several versa whips out there. And as they say, versa whip is a, it's either a soy protein or actually a milk protein, whey protein. There's 2 different ones, soy one and a whey one. And they function slightly different. I guess, you know, Chris is selling the soy one. If you're using verse whip for the 1st time, the other good whipping agent that a lot of us use is
+
+[25:24] methocell F, like Frank 50 is a good whipping agent, it's different. Proteins are whipping agents because they're large, charged, and they're large and in charged. anyway. And so they they're good at aerations and whipping agents. And, well, actually, foam stabilizers. That's actually it's not really a whipping agent, they're foam stabilizer, and I guess
+
+[25:44] I could be a whipping agent. But you might want to add some solids, also increase whipping when you're going. Another thing about versa whip. Versa whip can be weird. In other words, like when you're whipping an egg white, it kind of lifts up kind of like slow and steady. Versa whip, you can whip it for a while, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, bang. you have a foam. So if you buy it, just be aware that that is it might happen and don't give up right away when you're whipping stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Steven writes in from Moscow with, remember he was moving to Moscow? Yeah. And, uh, with water for coffee. That sounds like a book. water for chocolate? Oh, yeah. But water makes much more sense for coffee than for chocolate. Right? Anyway. Hello, love lifting into the show, listening for a long time. Wanted to follow up on equipment issues I called in a few weeks back. I live in Moscow and the water is absolutely horrible. That's too bad. Too bad. I usually get bottered, our water here is good. That's me. That's me. That's mean. Anyway, that's mean. Anyway, I usually get bottled mineral water shipped in, but I want to go for an under the sink filter. The local bottled water is not too bad and has an okay taste as everything's not filtered out of it. The big coffee head that I am. I need to have something to play with, water wise, filter wise. So see that filters seem to clean out most of the crud, the filters that he that he finds that seem to clean out most of the
+
+[27:00] crud, tend to be reverse osmosis filters. But at least from what I hear, the water tastes really bad out of an reverse osmosis, a.k.a. an RO machine, because it filters out almost everything. But it's on RO machine, really, the only way to go, well, the basic multi filter system
+
+[27:15] work for me, any specific processes that you would recommend brands, et cetera. Okay. Keep up the good work and let us know when you're heading to Moscow. Stasi was almost going to go to Moscow like 2 years ago. What the hell happened? The storm. Oh, no, no, no. It was Iceland. volcano erupted, right? Yeah, and then, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then no one would fly over that thing. And so she's like, meh, meh. It's typical, right? You were like, you were like, resign yourself to it. You're like, that's it. Because, you know, as those of you that, no, Nastasia is the curious mix. Well, not really half Russian. Like, quarter quarter Russian, quarter Ukrainian, but we call it Russian, no offense, Ukraine. And half Mexican. So she's trying to see whether she can go to Russia and also deny that half of her existence.
+
+[27:56] I'm just messing with it. Just messing with her. Anyways. The problem with reverse osmosis is that it takes out almost everything in it and coffee needs to have some mineralization in order for it to taste good.
+
+[28:08] So there's a couple different things you could do. You could go, uh, RO, and then use, actually mineralize it afterwards. And I didn't have a chance to look up. There's some companies that will sell kind of, um, kids where you can kind of remineralize the water. That said, I don't know what's in the water in Moscow that makes it taste bad. At my house,
+
+[28:29] you know, even in New York, we have a decent water supply. The particular pipe that mine comes through occasionally is chlorinated. And so I filter all of my water for coffee and I use a multi-stage filter. You want to go a big filter first. you know, when I say big, I mean, you know, somewhat porous, and it's going to capture most of the stuff that will clog the later filter. And they have filters that, you know, so they'll have filters that'll take down almost everything down to cysts and tiny little
+
+[28:57] things, but they'll also remove almost all of the flavor out of it as long as the water is safe to go. The issue with those filters is, is that when you add multiple
+
+[29:05] systems filters in a house system, you are decreasing the pressure coming through it by a lot.
+
+[29:11] And so you want to make sure that you get enough pressure through it. You want to make sure you change your filters. I use the GE home water stuff. I don't know whether it's sufficient for what's going on in Moscow. Or you could have an alternate problem is that the water is not just bad tasting,
+
+[29:26] right? Or, you know, it has problems, but is also too mineralized, in which case you need to demineralize
+
+[29:32] it and then remineralize it somewhat. But I totally agree with you. Reverse osmosis system is not the way to go. I'll, you know, send us back some more parameters about what actually your problem with the water is over
+
+[29:43] there, and I'll take a look and see whether or anyone else who has some experience with some real hard water places and coffee maybe can write us in and tell us what they
+
+[29:49] use. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Tom Fisher writes in about gum syrup. Hello, Dave, Anastasia, Jack, and Carlos Carlos is not with us anymore, brother. Carlos doesn't like us anymore. Jack, what are you going to do? He's around. But he is working at a hotel. I think he's delivering meals as a room service or something like that? specifically because he hated us at the radio show. I think specifically because he hated Nastasia. Wow. Hardcore. You should see the faces that Nastasia shoots off at the people. crazy. won too many vegan faces, I think. Yeah, you know, we have people here, like they're eating their pizza. Nastasia gives them the look out the window. They just push the pizza to the side. They can't eat anymore. They leave. It's crazy. Anyway, Tom Fisher writes in. Recently, I've been given a book of cocktail recipes and glancing through it, one ingredient kept jumping out at me. an old book, I guess. Gum syrup. Confused. I looked up several classic recipes, drinks that normally have sugar sugar syrup added, but in this book, all these drinks call for gum syrup. I have the ingredients on hand, so I don't necessarily mind making the syrup, but is there any need to do so? Does the gum Arabic really make a difference? Also, in searching for a recipe for gum syrup, I found half a dozen different versions. What do you recommend? Thanks and hoping you're having fun in Germany, Tom Fisher. Okay. Uh, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, gum syrup is uh, gum syrup is where you, instead of just making a regular simple syrup, uh, which is just sugar and water, you add a boatload of
+
+[31:12] gum Arabic to it, right? Now, I would add as much as you kind of can, right? Within the realm of poorability. The interesting thing about gum Arabic, is other than the fact that it comes from tree sap,
+
+[31:23] is, or if it comes from tree, it really comes out of tree. And the fact that, you know, for a while, there's problems with it because it was coming from an area in Sudan and maybe you were supporting terrorism and or genocide by buying
+
+[31:32] it. I think that's been fixed now. I'm not sure. Anyway, I shouldn't say stuff like that. like, you're kind of like off the cuff as though like, because it sounds horrible. I think they might have fixed those problems. Anyways, gum Arabic is really cool because unlike most hydrocolloids, which are long chains, right? Uh, uh, gum Arabic is very highly branched in a similar way to a millipect and is very highly branched. And so it's a very kind of large weight hydrocolloid polymer, but is also, you know, not too thick, even in kind of very heavy solutions. It also has a protein in it that acts as an emulsifier, which is why it was used for a long, long time, or still is used, while
+
+[32:11] it's expensive, to stabilize soda syrups that have some oil in them because it also has the really cool capacity that it holds its emulsifying capabilities, even when it's diluted radically and quickly, which is why it's great for things like soda syrups.
+
+[32:26] It also adds body, which is why it's in these drinks. So it's an emulsifier, which means it's going to, in a shaken drink, It's going to make the bubbles hold longer and it's going to get a better texture on it. Um, and that's basically why it's there. I'd say it's worth it. I've never experimented exclusively with straight gum syrup, uh, but we use a mixture of gum Arabic and xanthan called tickoloid 210 S for all of our emulsified fat
+
+[32:51] drinks like cold butted rum, uh, in all of our housemade orjas that we have. We have like a walnut orja, we have a pistachio orja, we have a toasted almond orja that we do at Booker and
+
+[33:00] Dex, and we use this Tickleoid 210. We also have, we never put it on the menu, but we do it for one-offs. We have basically what we call tick syrup, or tick simple. And it is a mixture of gum Arabic and Xanthan. And it's basically like a modern day gum syrup. And when you shake it into a daiquiri, let's say, you get kind of a, it's a different mouth feel. So half the people really love it, half the people prefer regular simple syrup in it. And so it's hard to say it's not better or worse. I think it's creamy and it kind of gets a better head, more foamy. I kind of like it. Do you like the tick simple or do you like the regular better? Do you remember? don't remember. You remember, like, but it splits along lines. So I would definitely recommend making some and trying, and we should do some regular good old-fashioned comes here. But if you're going to do it, freaking do it right at a boatload of gum Arabic, right? I mean, like, don't sissy around with it. It's expensive though. Maybe one reason not to. Anyway, hope that helps. Uh, okay. Should we take one more and then we take a commercial break? We don't have time for commercial break? I going to rip this stuff through. rip through this. Teddy DeVico wrote in about the foie gras band in California. I'm curious to hear your opinions on the upcoming foie gras band in California. The way I see it is that animal rights activists are just choosing a battle they can win, so they game momentum to tackle the real criminals like Purdue, Tyson, etc. I enjoy foie gras and personally think banning all foie gras in California's ludicrous. However, some foie gras producers do treat their ducks and geese horribly. But then again, the same goes for chicken, pork, beef, etc. The government should send out inspectors to approve of farms before they are allowed to sell their products. And also they should check up on the farms on at least a yearly basis to make sure the animals are treated humanely. Teddy DeVico. Um, Well, I you know, I don't really know. Here's a problem, right? And I'm going to, like, everyone's going to jump down my throat now. I going to be an outcast in in the in the chef world. I'm like, I like foie gras fine, but I could really live without it. I mean, like, you know what I mean? Like, most of my friends, you know, like, if you, you know, take away their foie gras, like taking, you know, taking the guns away from an NRA member,
+
+[35:00] like, they freak out. You know what I mean? But I don't think it's reasonable for me to decide like what I think is right or wrong just based on whether or not I really personally care about it that much. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I do like a hot, hot foie gras. You know, like nice. I like I like it. I like it fine. It's not my favorite freaking thing on earth. What about you, Stas? Yeah. And thanks for taking the bullet with me. I like that. See, stars, you know, stars, for all the crap we give stars. She is loyal, right? is true. Yeah, anyway. Did you try the foie gras donut last night? I didn't, no, I didn't. Was it good? I don't know. Someone said it was, they thought it was going to be like a cream, like foie gras cream inside, but it was just straight foie gras. Really? Really? Was it good? They did not like it. Yeah, doesn't sound good. I did not try it. I did not try it. I do not know. Anyway, I heard someone else who tried it. They said that they liked it, though, and their foie gras was more like a moose on the inside. Hey, we're not here to talk about it. Anyway, foie gras. So, um, I really don't know where I stand on this. You know, I believe that we should, you know, I eat meat, obviously. I think we should move towards humane methods of production in
+
+[36:05] all in all forms of farming, you know, to the greatest extent possible. The question is, I think the real, there's 2 things, right? There's one is that, you know, I don't like anyone being forbidden
+
+[36:21] to do something or search something that they want to serve in their restaurant, but there needs to be a limit.
+
+[36:27] I mean, obviously you're not allowed to, like, you know, murder people insert them in restaurants, right? So there's obviously a limit on what chefs should be allowed to do in a restaurant. Um, you know, and then, but there's the question of whether or not foie gras is basically just the poster child for what's perceived as
+
+[36:45] cruelty because, you know, for those, if there's anyone out there doesn't know how foie gras is produced. Basically, uh, uh, animals eat, uh, you force feed animals, a whole boatload of stuff, their
+
+[36:55] livers uh, inflate, uh, and then uh, and become delicious, uh, and it's called gavage. And that's really what people are griping about is gavage. You know, there's arguments that come in on a bunch of different sizes because then you have people coming in saying, well,
+
+[37:08] you're shafting my cultural heritage. In fact, you know, Gavage is not a recent thing. Like the ancient Romans practiced Gavage on various different animals to kind of fatten them up and increase their liver. So it's very old practice, which doesn't make it right. And, you know, people enjoy the product, which doesn't make it right. The real question is, is, is this practice, um, bad or not? I really haven't done the research on it to find out whether or not I actually think it is torture or cruelty. I'm sure that there are places where it's done in a completely horrible, inhumane manner, and I'm, but the question is, is that necessarily the
+
+[37:43] case? And from people I've spoken to, albeit unbiased people, Um, sorry, albeit biased people. Um, There are ways to produce foie gras, where it is not a torture for the animals, and then, you know, there's the possibly, but, you know, what do I know about it?
+
+[38:00] You know, apocryphal stories of, you know, in certain places, well
+
+[38:04] treated geese and ducks, actually coming up to the person who's going to perform the gavage. So in other words, they're not they're not afraid of it. Then there's the problem of like, yeah, you're taking care of like, you know, this one really high priced product, but on the other hand, you know, you're allowing the horrible farming
+
+[38:23] practices to take, you don't even call it farming, like horrible factory meat processes to take place, and not really bothering with those people because you're targeting someone that you can easily target because you are making people feel guilty for going out and spending a lot of money on a product that you're then associating with torture, the same way it worked on
+
+[38:39] fur, right? Uh, you know, so again, I don't really know where I stand. I know Dave Chang, trust his foie gras producers. I think we get from Hudson Valley at Mamafuku and, you know, and has visited their farm, has seen how they treat the animals.
+
+[38:55] And for all the crap that Dave gets for being like all pro meat. Like he is also pro-responsible farming. And so, you know, I know he vouches for that, or at least he told, I think he said he vouches for that. Thomas Keller signed on saying, you know, he vouches for some of the producers out
+
+[39:11] that he deals with as being humane. So I think if we can do it in a humane fashion, then I don't think it's necessarily inhumane just because their livers are diseased, unquote. That doesn't make sense, right? Does that make sense to you, Nastasia? Anyway. My mom overfeeds my cat? Can we eat the cat's liver? My mom overfeeds my cat. Uh, just in case you missed that, Nastasia just advocated uh, eating pet cats. Just saying. That's what I heard too. Yeah, just, just, just what I'm saying. Anyway. Okay. Okay, I'm going to rip through some Jack, do I have a little bit of time or no? Oh, yeah, you got like 5 more. Okay. So let me let me rip through some Let me rip through some questions. Greg writes in with a few questions. One, when you do low temperature cooking low temperature sausage, low temperature
+
+[39:59] normal, which we're going to do for the Museum of Food and Drink. We're gonna do beer brats or something similar, low temperatures, come eat them. Do you pierce the casings and let the oils into the casing or is this unnecessary? Do not do that. You want to keep the oils that were in the thing, in the thing to begin with. Water-based things like beer, we'll actually go through the membrane of the casing and like, you know, suck flavors out and put flavors
+
+[40:19] in. But you're trying to get as little flavor leech in or out as possible when you're using oil in like a Ziploc bag. So don't pierce it. And then you're just going to lose juices. You know, when you take a properly cooked sausage and you poke it. It like juice sprays out of it. And that's what you kind of want. You want to keep that stuff in there. So no. Two, I've been playing around with sous vide chicken breast recently and really love how they come out. I've been following Jason Lodchen's recommendations at 56 Celsius for 2.5 to 3 hours. That's low for me. Of course, the chicken looks anemic right out of the bag, so I've been trying to come up with a way to make fried chicken using a cheapo deep fryer. Alternatively, I could use a very hot pot of high smoke point oil, most likely peanut. Can you give me some recommendations about batters or coatings that would help here? I think it's too low. you're going to fry it, you're going to bring the stuff up. Um, Anyway, oh, I'm looking for something that would hear nicely, but be a decent vehicle for herbs and spices that would fry up quickly without significant heat soaking to the meat.
+
+[41:09] Listen, what you want to do is make sure you pull the stuff out when you're cooking it. Let hot. Let it flash off for a 2nd to get, you know, get a little bit of a pellicle on the outside, then straight flour, right? You could salt, but straight flour, and then put all of the flavor into like a liquid. I use buttermilk, egg, and I use bikes, basically buttermilk, egg, baking soda, baking powder, and you can put all the flavor you want in there, and then back into flour and fry. That's what I do. Now I got yelled at, you know, by some southern guys at the last thing because they use an entirely different technique. But that, using low temperature cooking, adheres like a bastard and you can get flavors into it. So that's what I do and that's what I would recommend. Also, I'm the habanero pepper taming guy from way back other than Steingarten, Jeffrey Steingart, and our good buddy. haven't spoken to him in a while, though, right? Anyway, it's good to labor over pepper's techniques. I haven't found a decent way to reduce capsation load in habanero peppers, which are extremely hot. Not as hot as not get Joloki or whatever they're pronounced, ghost peppers, but they taste a whole hell of a lot better. Anyway, I still have a few more experiments to try, but recently I got access to a centrifuge, and this technique struck me. Could you emulsify the trim pepper flesh with some oleophilic, that means fat, loving, medium,
+
+[42:16] centrifuse, that whole mess, and extract the supposedly capsation minimized goodness from the bottom. My thought is the capsation is an only immerse. if I can get it to stick to something. Can I filter or separate? I guess I didn't mean fat. Anyway, I should be in good shape. Any thoughts during the process? What about olive files? As the 1st cut, I was thinking about just using olive oil, but there's also casing or other things out there that might work.
+
+[42:36] Thanks, take care. Greg, I don't think that's going to work, Greg, because you might be able to... I mean, there's no doubt you could probably get a capsation enriched section of it, right? But you're not going to get all, you're not going to get all of it out or even probably enough to make a huge dent. I did some preliminary research last week when this question came in. I didn't find anything. I'm going to keep looking to see whether there's anyone that's done any research on centrifugally except separated capsation at lower at lower speeds.
+
+[43:01] But I have I am not holding out high hopes, but I'll look into it, right? you writing that down as you're writing an email? No, you're not. See, I could tell because you can hear the clacks. If I ask her to write an email and you hear the claggity clack, then you know she did. Yeah, sure, sure. Not the email about that. All right. Those are some cats that called in. Wow. That's hardcore. That's hardcore. Uh, man, we're not going to, we're not going to get, we're not going to get to all the questions. No, I don't think so. Okay, listen, just because we had a week without the show. Okay, so let me let me do this and then hopefully I can get it one more, but Michael Nakkin wrote in. Leo, longtime reason, our buddy, right? Urbivoracious. And comment on last 2 weeks ago on the show. So he said, so I couldn't possibly listen to the discussion of the vegan menu at Del Posto without writing in. The idea that this is talking about what, you know, you know, Mark and those guys said about cooking the vegan menus. The idea that vegetarians mostly don't really love food and are just difficult diners who mainly want some sort of health food sustenance
+
+[44:03] is, how could I say this for the radio, complete and utter crap? I've been a lacto ovo vegetarian for 23 years, and I pretty much never think about anything besides food and how to maximize the pleasure of my next meal.
+
+[44:15] But I'm fully engaged with food. I listen to your show. I've read modernist cuisine from cover to cover, and nostalgia at a few restaurants. My 1st book, uh, cookbook is coming out this week, uh, and it's called uh, Herbivoracious, a Flavor Revolution with 150 vibrant and a visual, original vegetarian recipes.
+
+[44:31] In fact, publication date is today. I looked it up on Amazon. Should be interesting. Congratulations and good luck with the book. Anyway, and I think if you take a look at it, you'll agree that there's no aspect of self-sacrifice
+
+[44:42] involved, for me being a vegetarian is just a completely personal thing, I'm not wired to want to eat animals.
+
+[44:48] And I don't think I'm alone. There are many of us who don't eat animals, but love food. I'd love to see more high-end restaurants, take that seriously, not simply throw some pasta in a beurre blanc, our way and hope we don't care. Thanks, Michael. Now, 1st of all, in defensive no post. So clearly that's not what they were doing. Right? You know what I mean? Also, I think, um, look, here's the thing, right? I mean... Yeah, it's a tough problem. I mean, like, obviously you love, you know, Michael, you love food and and there's whole cultures, whole civilizations that are based on, uh, especially lacto ovo vegetarian. I think the chef's gripe is probably more against vegans, I would say, right? Yeah. Yeah. No? I mean, I don't know. But even so, like, there's no such thing as like... Whatever the thing, you're just, it's like, it's like racism, basically. You're basically a racist. I have something to say. Okay. Last night, we were coming back from dinner after Mark and I were coming back from dinner, just a small dinner of like miso
+
+[45:51] soup, salad and fried chicken, and we have leftover fried chicken, and we're walking on like 58th and ninth or something. Sounds like a classic mustache store right here. And there's a homeless person on... Hardboard. wrapped in like a very nasty blanket. This poor guy, right? And he's asking everyone who passes for change. And I say, I have some food in this bag. And he said, what is it? And I said, it's fried chicken. And he said, I don't eat chicken because it depends on where it's been raised. Okay. See, you have no respect for human dignity. Nastasia has no respect for human dignity. I'm saying, no, no. I'm saying, look at how, you know, lots of people are very discerning. It doesn't matter. It's not decerning. The guys have more, because the guy doesn't have a home, he can't have morals on whether or not he's chicken.
+
+[46:39] But, yes. No, I'm saying good for him. Are you saying good for him? good for him, yeah. Good for him. Good for him. All right, so you're not I know, I'm not. You're not saying anything bad about this. No, not at all. All right. Well, I misjudge you then. Thank you. All right. The, the, the, the point is that, um, you know, I
+
+[46:58] get, the, the issue is, is that a lot of chefs, here's the deal. Chefs don't like pick what they perceive as pickiness in any form, right? And so the issue is, is if they perceive what's going on as just being pickiness. It's not that they don't mind the work. Chefs love work and they love problems. You know what I mean? They like to, they like a challenge. They like this. They don't like picky people in general, as a generalization. And what they do is, is that people, they don't necessarily, and here's the real crux, respect the decisions other people make based on their diet, right?
+
+[47:34] Say it's accurate, Nastachia. And so they perceive that as
+
+[47:40] being, they perceive certain dietary choices, not in 100% of the cases, but they perceive that people who make them as making decisions that are either a picky, be, whiny, or
+
+[47:52] C antisocial in some cases. Right, right? I think they spent a lot of time, they work with food. They make choices, they make recipes based on their love of food. And when there's a picky eater and it creates a whole new... Well, Michael's clearly not a picky eater. That's what I'm saying, but here's the problem was when it comes to generalization. You know what I mean? So, I mean, and it's disingenuous to basically give, you know, Michael a past because he's lacto oval vegetarian. I guarantee you there's vegans out there who love food. You know what I mean? Um, it's a lot harder, I think, you know, anytime you limit your palate, it's more of a challenge. It becomes more difficult and then it becomes harder for people who don't cook that way to produce a product on the
+
+[48:32] quality of the quality level that they want to produce. See in other words, another problem that chefs have is that they want to produce the best quality stuff that they can produce for
+
+[48:42] you. And if they don't sit around all day thinking about the best way to make a vegan meal, then it's hard for them to produce
+
+[48:47] their, what they think is their best showing, right? uh, uh, when they're doing vegan. If you add onto that, this is, I mean, sorry to say it, but this is like innate, right? Like an innate distrust of any sort of thing that they see as picky, then
+
+[49:04] you're like, you know, you're adding insult to injury. But I think, uh, I mean, I don't know how the hell this is coming off
+
+[49:10] the outside, uh, world. Probably horribly. But, I mean, the fact of the matter is, uh, that, you know, you're you're right. We should judge every, a chef should judge every customer they come in on their own merits and there's plenty of meat eaters who are some picky some bitches who, you know,
+
+[49:28] who chefs don't like dealing with. I don't like salt. I don't like, you know what I mean? There are people who legitimately can't have too much salt because they're hypertensive. But then there's people who say that they don't like it. People, it's like, okay, like, I'm allergic to stuff. I, like, I'll die if I eat like a large quantity of, uh, raw cherries, and the only reason I'm allergic to it is because I'm being punished for making fun of people's allergies for years.
+
+[49:49] Do you know what I'm saying? But chefs do that all the time. You know what I'm saying? Uh, but I think, you know, uh, you know, part of it, if you read, if you go to uh, the Amazon, and you, and you look at uh, Michael's cookbook, Michael
+
+[50:01] Nakkin's new cookbook, uh, and you read the copy for it, which I did today, basically saying, you know, this is food that you'll be happy to cook for your meat eating friends because it's basically just delicious.
+
+[50:09] I love that. I support that. And it's very similar, actually, Pat Brown, who's a professor at Stanford,
+
+[50:15] who's was working on the, he's a vegetarian, is working to try and make meat analogs. He's like, he's like, you know, and he's doing it actually because he does want to proselytize. He wants people to stop eating meat. He wants meat to stop being produced. He wants people to stop farming meat. He's friends with Harold McGee, he's poached him. Anyways. So his point is, you will never decrease the amount of meat that is consumed in this country by the average person unless you make a product that a meat eater wants to eat more than the meat they're
+
+[50:40] eating now. And that's it, right? All right, listen, I got a couple questions I didn't get to. We'll get you next week, cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market. Check out Fairwaymarket.com for more information.
+
+[0:12] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Is that right, Jack? They get it right again? Yeah, that's right. Man, have this thing right all the time. Fire. I know, it's like, it's like, once I, once I remember it, I'd never forget. I wake up when I'm 90 and just start screaming that number out to people. Don't change that thing because I know I'll never remember it again. Never, never change that. I am not joined right now in the studio by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, but Jack and I don't know where she
+
+[0:55] is. She should be here. So she probably got caught on that L train. So we're going to have to play that shoot, see, groove, L-train song to make fun of the L-train later again, one of our, one of our favorite songs, right? So, what's going on here? We have, oh, this a new question in? Okay. So while I'm waiting for Nastasia to come in, so I can shoot the poop with her. We'll go into some of the questions I missed from last time. Jonathan Rogers. Actually, his name is Jonathan Woodruff Rogers III. I did not know that. He was one of our former interns, actually. Nice guy at the FCI. writes in a question about equipment. Hey, Dave and Nastasia. Nice bumming into you the other afternoon. I'm following up regarding at the bar, by the way. That's Booker and Dax, our bar, go visit. I'm just following up regarding some questions I have in my new gig. I'm catering lunches for a few tech startup companies Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday through the company City Grit. Since it's only 3 days a week, plus prep. I have some free time to experiment with some food, which is good. Very few people who are cooking for a living actually have the time to do a lot of experimentation, which is why,
+
+[2:03] you know, my job, uh, director of culinary technology at the French culinary, especially when I was there full time, was so great for that because I didn't have a service to worry about. So that's, yeah, and that's why Faran shuts down his place for, uh, you know, or, you know, for half the year or whatever it is so that he has time to, they have time to do experimental work. Anyway, um, okay, also, the companies allow me to pretty much cook whatever I want, uh, with a 6 item menu that changes weekly. I have roughly $7000 to spend and was wondering what you recommend, I get some information on brands and or recommendation, recommend locations to purchase the products.
+
+[2:37] Things I'm interested in having in my life are a deli slicer, a dehydrator, a meat grinder, a chamber vacuum sealer, a fryer, a
+
+[2:43] smoker, or any other cool gadgets within the price range. They're getting a combi oven, and I currently have a circulator thinking about getting another one. Any information or advice will help. Thanks again, looking forward to stopping by and letting you know how it's going. Thanks again, JW. Okay. Now, $7000 is going to get eaten up pretty quickly. Uh, I love delis. First of all, I'm just getting another circulator. That's another like 800 bucks right there. Just get another one. you have two, and you can keep one running while you use the other one for service, or you can have, you know, you're never going to regret having 2 circulators around.
+
+[3:14] Now, something like a smoker, um, I would go cheap on the smoker, the smoker, nobody really likes it, but the smoker that everyone gets is only like a
+
+[3:24] couple, like a 150 bucks. It's like the, I forget that there's like a little chief or a big chief or something like that. It's basically just like a quilted metal box, you know, that little fine quilt pattern, metal box with
+
+[3:36] like a heater in the bottom. And the guys over at Sam have modified it by drilling a hole in the side and putting a smoke generator with a little heater in on the side to cool the smoke
+
+[3:45] down. But, you know, that's basically all there is to it. In a restaurant situation or even in this catering situation, in New York City, where you don't have the space for a big dedicated smoker, these things are
+
+[3:58] light, they can be moved around very easily. And again, nobody loves them, but, you know, Wiley uses it at
+
+[4:04] WD 50. Um, they use it at sambar. A bunch of people use this because it's cheap and it's easy to stow away when you're not using it. So that's what I'd recommend for the caterer there. Dehydrator, get the Excalibur. There's no question that you should get the Excalibur dehydrator and dehydrator is a great thing to have. Excalibur, the reason you want to get the Excalibur one. I've used some of the round ones that where the stuff goes through and all this other nonsense and I've used, I've used some various ones. Unless you can have a lot of money or to custom build one, the Excalibur is great because it gets a lot of racks in it and the racks are square, which means that
+
+[4:39] they you can lay things out in a way that makes sense. those round ones with a hole in the middle. What the hell are you going to lay out in that? doesn't make sense. Plus, the dehydrator, it's easy to use flat sheets and dehydrate liquids to make leathers or sheets or papers.
+
+[4:51] It's also easy to dry things on the perforated racks. It's just, you know, it's also the dehydrator is really good. The Excalibur because it's very even throughout. So the top rack is going to dry just as evenly as the bottom rack. You can use it for fermentation experiments. I mean, you know, I have one. I've always, you know, have when we have one at some, we have one at the FCI. That's the one that everyone who, anyone who buys a different dehydrator for a restaurant regrets it.
+
+[5:18] So, uh, go for the Excalibur, uh, which I guess, you know, does that, I don't really usually recommend brands like that, but there you
+
+[5:26] go. I actually paid for mine straight up on Amazon. Anyway, they're not that much. For the deli slicer. Now, I've been very spoiled in my life. I don't have one right now, but the Hobart model 3000 is a thick slicer. I did a video for them and they gave one to me, but I left it to school. I don't know why. I should have taken that thing with me because I love that dang thing so much, but it's like, you know, it props up like a car so you can clean underneath it. The blade pops out so you can throw it in the dishwasher. It slices like a freaking dream. Uh, butt, and it slices really, really well. In fact, prior to the Hobart Model 3000, the slicer that I always recommended people get is the
+
+[6:06] berserba SE 12. And a slicer, meat slicer, by the way, just on meat slicer basics. The average meat slicer that we get here in the United States is a gravity slicer, meaning they're on that
+
+[6:17] angle and you see them, if you see them a deli. They're on an angle, and you're supposed to use gravity to basically force the product into the blade and then slice as you go, right?
+
+[6:27] And it has that little handle that you push down. Rookie mistake. If your slicer is not very good or your slicer is not very sharp, you have to apply a good bit of pressure on the item to get it to slice properly as it goes
+
+[6:40] through. This is a horrible practice and causes the bottom of your meat or whatever you're slicing to kind of wedge out as it's getting
+
+[6:48] cut. It's called like healing out at the bottom. And it's, you know, it's a sign that you're, that, A, you're not, slicer's not great. B, it's not that sharp. And C, you're pushing too hard. A properly sharpened slicer should not, you shouldn't have to push on it at all. Uh, and part of that is having very good sharp blades. And prior to the Hobart Model 3000, the slicer that I always recommend it was the berserba SE 12 because it had a really good blade and pretty
+
+[7:14] solid, um, a pretty solid uh, carriage mechanism. But, you know, nowadays, I recommend the Hobart, but you're going to be able to get the berserba a lot cheaper than you're going to be able to get the Hobart 3000 and the berserba is a great machine. It just doesn't clean quite as easily. The, uh, you might be able to get the bazerba used, I haven't priced one in a long time, but it's going to be a lot cheaper than
+
+[7:35] the 3000. The 3000 those primo. In Europe, they actually use something called a vertical slicer. And a vertical slicer is great because instead of using gravity to force the product into the blade, the
+
+[7:47] product just sits like it normally would, and the carriage literally moves and feeds the stuff in slice by slice.
+
+[7:55] And these make perfect slices again and again. And actually, the 1st slicers that were made by, you know, Burkel, Van
+
+[8:02] Burkel, back in, you know, when he invented the meat slicer, were vertical slicers. And in Europe, they continue to be popular and they make fantastic slice quality. But for some reason or other, we tend not to use them in the US. Um, I don't know if you wrote down uh, vacuum machine, but if you can't remember if, yeah, vacuum sealer, if you're going to get a vacuum sealer, I mean, uh, go for one, you can get a good price on. If you're going to get a smaller one, I like the mini packs because they have bigger chamber size, just look at the chamber size. I mean, all of the hoo-ha programming and stuff. I don't know that you're going to use it that much in your application, but get one with a big chamber size. The mini pack and the smaller units especially have a good chamber size and their price seems to be okay. For catering, I would stay away from any of like the really cheap ones because they're going to break when you least want them to break. Get one with a, with a, with a, the actual good German work equivalent to the German, which is, um, the name's out of my head. my gosh. I speak about it all the time. The name of the pump starts with a B. Anyway, uh, the, um, the pump in that is what's
+
+[9:03] serious, and you got to make sure you get the good hardcore German uh, vacuum pump oil-based pump in that. Otherwise, you're going to be asking for problems. Um, okay? So get those. Uh, make sure you have a Vita Prep or two, um, and that's really, you know, all the really other super high tech stuff. I mean, it's kind of like gilding the lily. You know what I mean? I mean, like all the other stuff. I mean, the core stuff I just told you is the basis of almost everything that we
+
+[9:30] use, with the exception of liquid nitrogen. Get yourself a liquid nitrogen doer. Did I mention that? Get a liquid nitrogen doer. You're not going to regret having liquid nitrogen. All right. Nastasia made it. What was the uh... Here, get over the microphones. People can hear you. So apparently as we... Well, don't push my microphone away. You could climb over, go under anything other than pushing the microphone away from me while you're talking. She does not know where her body is in space, by the way. Like, Nastasia has no idea where her body is within the space around her.
+
+[9:59] So I'm not going to blame her. Like, I don't think she literally did that on purpose. Same way that she doesn't understand where doors are when she slams him in your face, which is a constant thing with nostalgia. Yeah, you slam. You walk through doors and then like look like you're going to hold them open for people and then slam them on their faces or on bicycles and stuff because you don't really pay attention to people or the world around you as you're walking.
+
+[10:18] Wow. Well, I was stuck in the Grand Street station and no one could find Phil Bravo this morning. No one knows who Phil Bravo is. No one knows who Phil Bravo is. We've talked about him before. Who's Phil Bravo? He's a friend of mine and he didn't go to work today. So, and he was last seen with me. Wow, well, that's so did you kill him? No. No, he was actually, he was with Tristan all night. Phil Bravo is a very cheap man. So I'm sure he followed wherever the liquor was cheapest. By the way, for those of you not hanging out in New York right now, it's James Beard kind of
+
+[10:47] week and everyone's going out crazy partying except for me, I was home asleep with my family last night. I was home by midnight. Yeah? So Phil went out with Tristan until I heard Harold McGee was partying like a rock star last night with Daniel Patterson and Chris Constantino,
+
+[11:01] 3 of our good friends out there hanging out, having fun. Oh, speaking of James Beard. Congratulations to Tozy. Santosi. Yeah. Our good buddy, won that PDT. You know, great bar, won best bar. Who else won? You remember Daniel Hum won? Yeah. I'm sorry for all of our friends who were up for awards that did not win, but congratulations out to those people who did. Yeah, right? Okay. How long were you sitting at the Grand Street Station? It would stop for like 15 minutes. I was going to be right on time and it was, we were stopped there with doors open and I was like, could I walk from here? But then, you know, that minute when you're like, what if we go right now? I do not know. Yeah, I know that minute. It's like but you always get burnt by that minute. There's nothing worse than sitting in mass transit, not being able to control your destiny. Thinking at any minute this sucker might move again. And with the door was open and every 2nd you got to decide whether... Yeah, yeah. Every minute, and then it was one of those electronic things. So they just said train traffic ahead. I was in the Grand Central the other day. On Sunday going to the Bronx Zoo, which, by the way, is not an eating zoo. You don't get to eat any of the animals that are at the Bronx Zoom. My kids were joking about that as we're there. Anyways, the, uh, when you, the trains were not running out of Grand Central. The whole thing was shut down. It was incredibly calm. No one was flipping out. No one was anything. I've never seen Grand Central.com. Metro North Train. All them were shut down. for like 2.5 hours. The only person not com was my son, freaking out. Okay. Uh, question another question from last week. Don writes it about soda. You may remember that I met you at the B-AR. That's beverage Alcohol Resource School in September at the Astor Center. I am in the planning phase to open a bar, and so does slash carbonation has me at a conundrum. I don't want soda guns. I wouldn't mind bottles, but that's a very high cost and a storage problem. I love the look and ease of ISI soda bottles, but the cost of chargers is
+
+[12:52] stratophuric. I like the work you've done with carbonation systems using the compressor and plastic bottles, but how practical are they in a working bar? It seems to make a huge sticky mess pretty quick. What is Booker and Dax doing for carbonate beverages? On a related note, I tried to carbonate Negroni using the ISI soda bottle. And I just got a glass of foam. What can I do to prevent that? Love the show, Don. Okay, carbonation in a nutshell. The only thing that's really currently available on the market right now that does really good carbonation, my level of carbonation, what I think is an acceptable level of
+
+[13:21] carbonation, is using soda bottles with the carbonator cap manufactured by the liquid bread corporation coming out of a
+
+[13:31] 5 or £20 CO2 tank. You need to pre-chill it much colder than refrigerator temperatures, right? Like, until it's almost frozen. And then you need to uh, you need to carbonate it 3 times before service. A one liter bottle is what I recommend. A one liter bottle will hold roughly 5 pores of drink. And so you do a bunch beforehand and they get going. The reason that you're foaming is several fold. One, you probably don't have enough water in it, right? The 1st mistake people are making when they're doing drinks is
+
+[14:05] to is to not add enough water to the carbonated drink. They treat it like you'll make a drink by shaking, which isn't actually shaking might make a drink cold enough to carbonate. In fact, shaking will make a drink that's kind of barely cold enough to carbonate. The problem is shaking a drink will make a drink that's too alcoholic to be really successful over the long term as a
+
+[14:24] carbon a drink. What do I mean by this? If you take a drink, a like Negroni, 1st of all, instead of stirring the Negroni, if you're going to carbonate it, you must shake it because stir
+
+[14:33] Negroni, A is nowhere near cold enough to carbonate properly. You're going to foam all over the place and B, it's nowhere near diluted enough to carbonate properly. So the 1st thing you're going to have to do when you when you make an agroni carbonated is to shake it. Then you're going to, uh, it's still going to be too alcoholic and it will taste good for the 1st sips, but the problem is, is that you can't have like 32 or 3 of those because it's going to
+
+[14:54] get not just because it's going to mess you up, but because it's going to be, uh, somewhat cloying over
+
+[14:59] time. If you just take that Negroni that you made that way. And just as the test. And, you know, I was talking to Toby Chikini about this. And he's saying the same thing. It's like, add a little bit of soda water to that and see how much more kind of delicious and refreshing it
+
+[15:12] is, just lightening it a little bit. If you were going to make a carbonated drink. I tell you what our ratios are at the bar. Our ratios for a drink for a 5 ounce pour. R ratios are one. 75 ounces of strong. That's of straight liquor, and 3.25 ounces of
+
+[15:33] water or a week, like, including like simple syrup and juice and all that. And everyone's like, 0 my god, that's so weak. Listen, it's not. I've done tests again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And those ratios are the ratios that make, in my opinion, a good drink. If you have more alcohol than that, you need to get it ridiculously cold to carbonate it properly and you're really
+
+[15:56] going to put people on the floor, right? I mean, I've done straight, you know, 40% liquor carbonated stuff before, but they have to be basically
+
+[16:06] minus -18 Celsius to work properly. They don't balance well, and you can't have that very many of them, and they hit people like a ton of bricks. You're much better using the ratios that I just told you, getting it cold till it's almost frozen and doing it. The way we do it at the bar is I have a very special refrigerator, the Randall FX, right? And what it can maintain very, very accurate temperatures. So I set that thing to be 23 Fahrenheit, 22, 23 Fahrenheit, which is what I think is the good place between 20 and
+
+[16:40] 23, Fahrenheit, which is where I think that carbonated drinks should be. I think it's like 23 is what we said it at. And then I let them chill in there until they're chilled a couple hours. And then before service, I carbonate them and they stay in there and I keep refluffing it after I do everyone. The ISI chargers is going to cost you too much. It's not going to work out. Most people's carbonated drinks, I think, are only very lightly carbonated compared to what kind of I
+
+[17:06] want. And one of the reasons is because they foam too much. because their drinks aren't cold enough or they're putting it through a keg system, which causes a lot of foaming. Alcohol in general foams a lot. And so you're kind of, you know, barking up a hard tree. Plus, you need to carbonate alcohol more than you carbonate water for the same sensation of carbonation. So not only does alcohol foam more, but it also needs to be carbonated higher. So you get double the foam and so everything seems very, very filamy. Your solutions are reduce the alcohol proportions slightly, and chill it much more than you're chilling at now. But to me, bottles are the way to go in a bar until we finish our system and get it done right, right?
+
+[17:44] Which I'm working on right now. I just ordered. I built one that works and I'm building another one that works, which hopefully we're going to take to Japan with us. You want to bring that to Japan? Because we need another thing that can break when we go somewhere, right? Right? Nothing's better than stuff that breaks. You like breaking stuff? That's awesome. Awesome. Okay. That answered that question, right? All right, why don't we take our 1st commercial break and come back with some more questions? No, I'll rock the house party at the drop of a hat. Yeah, beat a body down with the luminum back. A lot of people maybe don't just hear me rock the mind. Baby, staring at the radio, saying up all night. Today program was brought to you by Fairway Market. Whether you are cooking for one or for a crowd, Fairway Market literally has everything you need for a fantastic meal. But if you don't feel like cooking, no worries. They cater. Check out fairwaymarket.com for more information, and be sure to check the new blog on our plate for weekly specials, health
+
+[18:38] tips, and recipes. I think you missed a point.
+
+[18:51] That's a baseline right there, huh? Oh, yeah, that says that's your homage to MCA, huh? You know, I didn't even know it sucks. I didn't even know that he died until a couple days afterwards, but that's the end of an era, right? Yeah, indeed. And an interesting tidbit there is a Tibetan doctor advised him to go vegan in the last month
+
+[19:12] or so. Damn. So, so, okay, I'm just putting that out there. What's the meaning of that? I'm just putting that out. Well, you know, they were saying when Steve Jobs passed that he was he was vegan stubbornly and then it may have not been the best idea. But look, it turns out that, uh, turns out that we all
+
+[19:31] die eventually, like this is one of those things that happens, like, regardless of whether you eat vegan or not, turns out you're going to die. It's one of the hard things to kind of like kind of get a handle on, but it's true. And one of the things that bothers me is any sort of health claim related
+
+[19:49] to diet. While it's true that I think I could construct pretty unhealthy diets out of any sort of
+
+[19:57] food taste or food thing. Like, I could construct an incredibly unhealthy vegan diet. I could construct a healthy vegan diet. I could construct an incredibly unhealthy meat-based diet. I could construct a healthy one. I mean, it's like, you know, the idea that you could, I mean, 1st of all, when you're really sick, I know I would be grasping at anything to try and make myself be better, but my semi-healthy self telling myself now in the future
+
+[20:23] is, 1st of all, when you're sick, it's already too dang late. I'd like to hear someone, not too dang late. I mean, obviously, if you have a long-term chronic thing, you change your habits, you get better, right? I mean, I just, I'm very, uh, I don't like, in general, the notion of people selling dietary cures
+
+[20:43] to the illness. That's my point. I mean, I would love to hear someone call in and tell me that I'm the world's biggest jerk off for saying that, but in general, my philosophy, not backed by science, but my philosophy is that the healthiest diet is to eat a wide variety
+
+[21:03] of interesting foods in moderation that make you happy and sated. Yeah? Yeah. Now, if you're happy and sated, uh, eating vegan because you don't want to take in animal products, then you should eat vegan, right?
+
+[21:19] Yeah. You know? Um, speaking of which, go on the uh, Amazon and look up uh, Michael uh, Napkins book. I'm curious to see how it's doing. Hopefully doing quite well. We'll give you a follow-up on the thing. We talked about his book last week and his kind of slap across our face for talking
+
+[21:37] about people's dietary choices. Okay. Uh, longtime listener, Ken, Ken Ingber writes in, uh, 2 things. One, he wrote an article about a coffee trip that he took
+
+[21:49] to, you know, New York. We read it. We couldn't read it online. you know, on the air because it you know, it was long, right? But apparently he's going to get it published in Coffee Geek, maybe, which is nice. Right? But just to give you a preview in case it comes out on there, he had enough shots of espresso during a day to basically turn him into a Christmas
+
+[22:08] Chihuahua. Just like, you know, shaking, caffeinated. I mean, I didn't see him afterwards, but I'm assuming, I know if I had that much caffeine in me, it would be a
+
+[22:17] nightmare. And I'm a very caffeinated fellow. Okay. Ken Wright in. I am making a French dinner this weekend. Of course it's 2 weekends ago, so we missed it. I'm making a French dinner this weekend. I want it to end with good humor, good humor is a pun in this case. In particular, my dessert will be a cream sickle brulee. Uh, crème brûlée with blood or orange foam. I aspire to get my guests weeping a la alinia over their childhood memories of a good humored creamsicle, but I will settle for an appreciative groan.
+
+[22:39] So how do I make a foam with juice? I combine the juice with liquid less thin and put it in my espresso milk froth there. I got no foam in less than did not mix with the juice, but instead stuck to the spring coil frothing device and it's next to impossible to clean. Liquid legend is nasty. Lesson in general is pretty nasty. I only I very rarely use Letheson, by the way. You ever see me use it? No, I don't use it. I imagine modernist pantry has some magic powder. But the dinner is Saturday. So I do have a lot of time. I have Agar Agar in the house, but don't think that's suitable. Can I just use a little egg white and live, the guests use, ask if I'm using raw eggs. Uh, follow-up to that. Cancel my request on the phone unless you find it interesting. I was unsuccessful using Lolesithin, despite multiple assurances on the internet. I'm throwing this away. I'm throwing it away as it is not pleasant to work with. is as pleasant as roofing tar. I used egg white and gelatin, the foamer, hot and cold and immersion blender, had some success with gelatin, but it was a lot of fuss and didn't do it because it was a pain in the butt. Okay. I assume something like, 1st of all, it would work. As I said, I did not have time to order from modernist pantry. Oh, well. Well, Ken, you know modernist pantry has quick shipping to anyone in the world. In fact, someone else wrote in, we'll get to it later, basically saying that it was quick, but
+
+[23:48] versus whip, you're quite right. Versa Whip is what you should probably use for that. And Evan Freeman, our friend Evan Freeman, had a blood and sand recipe with
+
+[23:59] a orange foam on top that was, in fact, made with Versa Whip. And his recipe is 200 grams of orange juice and 2.5 grams of versa whip. He doesn't say what kind of versa whip because that's like Eben. won't tell you what kind. You know what I mean? Thanks Eben. Anyway. Uh, 2.5 grams of versa whip, which is a lot of verse whip. It's like, you know, it's a lot, right? It's over a percent. In general, I try to add gums in the percent or less range, but in this case, I don't think it matters
+
+[24:26] because it's going to be whipped up. And a half gram of Xanthan gum. And the Xanthan is there to provide body to it and to hold once it whips up.
+
+[24:34] The 1st of whips are whipping agent, but the worst of whips is not going to hold the foam. right? The Xanthan is there to hold the foam. Uh, after the verse of it whips it up, okay? And then use an immersion blender with a whisk attachment to whip it into a foam and ladle on top. Another thing you can do, that's incredibly simple and doesn't require ordering anything online and creates a very
+
+[24:54] dense, orangey, orangey foam. You're going to want to acidify it a little bit. So orange plus a little bit of lemon to make it, you know, more like a sour orange, right? Set that into an agar gel, pretty stiff, like 0.8 to one% agar gel. Blend it in a blender. Now you have a fluid gel. If you mix that with straight cream in a whipper, in an ISI whipper, when you squirt it out, you get a dense, dense foam, and the
+
+[25:24] agar fluid gel stops the cream from breaking, and you actually can have the a really dense, cream sickle like fluid
+
+[25:31] gel. And we've done that many times. And that's my favorite kind of citrus foam because it has that awesome mouthfield whipped cream, which you can't beat. You can't beat the mouthfield of whipped cream, right? In fact, it's even denser than whipped cream. It's like dense and creamy, but also orangey and acidic without breaking. that'll hold for a while. So next time you do it, or if anyone wants to do it, like, I think that's a good, uh, that's a good way to do it, right? Yes. Yes. It's actually like, I don't really care. I don't care. No, so this his book, Michael Natkins book, got 10 five-star reviews. Wow. goes on. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is beautiful. So maybe we should buy it. How much is it? 1629 Prime on Amazon. You know what? I'll make sure we book him for one of the other shows where we do more you know, authors of books and stuff like that. And he used to be an engineer on the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. What? Whoa. What do you mean? He, where is it? He was a software engineer making dinosaurs for Jurassic Park. That's baller. Yeah. You know, my wife was saying, should we let the kids watch the Jurassic Parker? too damn scary? I think the guy gets eaten. The postman from Seinfeld gets eaten, right? I was pretty young when I saw it and it was pretty awesome, though. Well, how young is young? I think I must have been like, I'll have to look it up. I'll actually go look up the release date. Yeah, be a real answer. it up, Jack. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so everyone should go out and buy his book. We're going to buy a copy of the book and Jack's going to try to get him booked onto a show. Yeah, and let's have them build it down. 7 years old. Sorry. I was seven. Seven? Man, I was like 85 when that movie came out. Okay. Chip writes in regarding circulators. He misses the hammer and Dave and Jack, but does not miss Carlos. Wow. Really? Yeah. Hardcore. Man. I like a guy who respects loyalty. Miss the hammer, like Mr. or Missus. Oh, maybe Miss the Hammer and Dave. Yeah. And Jack, but not Carlos. He does say, but not Carlos. messed up. He's not saying hello. Anyway. Anyway, anyway. All right, regardless. Uh, he says, I know you're not the biggest proponent of DIY thermal circulators, but my wife won't let me drop a G on one
+
+[27:36] yet, so I had to do my best. I'm familiar with this problem, chip. I made the version on Seattle food geek a while back, but quickly found that the pump being submerged was the slash A problem. And when I was cooking potatoes, I guess it went south on him, he was cooking potatoes for the modernist cuisine gnocchi recipe. So I wanted to move it out of the water. Finding a pump that would, A, handle the heat, and B would be self priming was a bit of a challenge, but if there is a need, it is sold on eBay. So I found one there. That's that's that. That's almost every dang thing on eBay. Almost, almost everyday thing on eBay. I used an SSR, which is a solid state relay for all you folks out there. By the way, in case you're the person who listens to our show doesn't know what a circulator is, it's a device that keeps water
+
+[28:19] usually or any other liquid, but with a DIY, definitely only use water and try to keep it clean. At a very precise temperature, which is invaluable for doing kind of modern, low temperature cooking, which is, you know,
+
+[28:31] I use it all the time. They're about 800 bucks now at the JB Prince or at the Williams Noma. And so a lot of people have been making their own. By the way, I am not against DIY circulators. In fact, I applaud anyone that wants to build something themselves. It's just usually you end up with something where you've spent a lot of hours building it and it's not quite as
+
+[28:55] functional. I think there's so many people working on the DIY circulators that I'm pretty sure they're pretty good by now, but he's quite right. The main problem is the the pump. Uh, let me go on to keep on going, uh, I also, uh, this is chip again. I also had the case for it, laser cut on pinoco.com. panoko.com is pretty cool. You just send them like the pictures and they can laser cut stuff and they ship it back to you. So it took a little more, so it looks a little more like a retail product. I still need to address some of the visual issues with it, but what as? It works for now. I like what is. Victoria says that. Our former intern works with us a lot. Anyway. Anyway, I thought I'd share. Thanks for the great show. Modern's pantry does have fast chipping. Thanks, Chip. I looked at Chip Circulator. I't know if it's available online. Damn thing does look pretty good. One thing I'm going to say, if you're going to build a circulator, The main parts are a controller. controllers can now be had for $30 or less in that range on eBay and
+
+[29:46] at Auburn instruments. Some people buy controllers with relays in them. I don't recommend using a regular relay because it's another failure point that I don't enjoy having. I don't enjoy failure points. I use a solid state relay, which he uses. They're not that expensive. They can be had for very cheap at this point. Um, and an immersion heater, which you can basically crib from almost anything. you know, a hot water heater, whatever. I don't know what these guys are using DIY, a temperature sensor, again, only a several dollar problem now. And then the case. That's the hard part. And the pump pumps break a lot. And real circulators basically have a long shaft, and they just sit there spinning a stainless steel blade to do the pumping, and it ends up being good over the long term. I've had most of my plastic in and out pumps like the one you're using here fail over time, but, you know, good luck with it. It looks like a good job. looks like you did a good job, right? Yeah. Yep. You want to take one more commercial break? Let's take another commercial break. Call your questions. Two, 718-4972128. That 7184972 or three.
+
+[30:58] Hey, ladies and a place are calling out to you. When there was a city, can't you answer what? For the beat, then you'll ever know. And I got more hits, than so, to,
+
+[31:10] to, to, to, to, to, ripping on TV with the hair, to, to. We're scrolling out, just like the great kid, and I'm always out looking for a female. On the dog, on the drag it to the rim. Put on, bitch, wheel in a deal and make a little bit of a spin. I'm real. I'm telling. Your
+
+[31:30] body's all time, and your mind is appealing. Staring at the cracks of it, I'm on ceiling. to be the base that I'm doing. I'm talking to the girl, telling her about knowing. Talking to the kid. I'm telling her if he lied, that you know that I never did. Ladies, get funky. All the ladies in the high. Nice one, Jack. Nice one. Uh, Nastasia, for those of you that don't know, likes to just kind of like make weird judgments about things,
+
+[32:01] decided parrots are like this too, by the way. Just aside, does not like my shirt, right? And the reason is I'm wearing one of my favorite shirts, which is a hunting shirt. It's Blaze Orange. And her opinion is that it makes me look like a uh, prison uh, work gang who, the reason prisoners wear orange is the same reason hunters wear orange is to be seen
+
+[32:24] easily. The hunters do it so they don't get shot and the prisoners do it so that they can get shot if they try to escape.
+
+[32:31] See, slightly different. But none of that has anything to do with my shirt, which I'm
+
+[32:36] not neither hunting nor hopefully going to prison today. So I don't really understand Nastasia's problem with it. Anyway. Derek Bodkin writes in about a popcorn machine. Dave and Co. Recently, I learned about Chinese popcorn in Parents. I don't Prince, quotes. I say prince, my quotes. Apparently a method where kernels are kernels are sealed in a container and superheated, then allowed to explosively decompress, popping them all at once. Here is a link, and you look on, like, look for explosively awesome on the
+
+[33:08] internet, boing, boing, and whatnot. In your humble opinions. Is it possible to hack together a setup to do this in a home kitchen? Thanks for your help and insight and keep being awesome, Derek Bodkin. Okay. You have asked a question that I actually do know something
+
+[33:22] about because I actually have tried to do this at home before many, many, many years ago,
+
+[33:27] like before I had kids, so it's more than 10 years ago, probably 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
+
+[33:33] Um, So I've been interested in a long time for uh, in a piece of equipment called a puffing gun. Now, when they were inventing breakfast cereals at the beginning of the 20th
+
+[33:47] century and the end of the 19th beginning of the 20th century, and, you know, in that range, was when all of the really butt kicking breakfast cereal concepts were invented, except one, except one.
+
+[33:58] So, uh, flakes were invented back then, and the way they were made is with a giant oversized, basically pasta machine where you, like, you temper out uh, actual whole kernels and you feed them through these incredibly, they're cooled and they're incredibly
+
+[34:12] massive uh, and sturdy roll, rollers, and it just, boop, smashes them into flakes, and the flakes shoot out onto a, onto a mat, and that's it. They're done. That was invented back then. The shredder, to make shredded wheat was invented back then, and that's basically the same concept, but the roller has ridges in it. So it extrudes them into shredded wheat shapes, right? Also, at that time was invented the puffing gun. And the puffing gun, right, is an amazing piece of equipment where what you do
+
+[34:42] is, so corn, you can pop normally. There's really no need to do this with popcorn because corn, you can pop. You know what I mean? But you can't pop wheat. and you can't pop rice the same way. You can puff it by frying, but you can't puff it the same way popcorn does. And the reason is, is that the outside, the skin of the popcorn is
+
+[35:03] so it seals in the water so well that when you're heating it in oil, water pressure can build up on the inside of the
+
+[35:12] kernel in the end of sperm to the point where it explosively decompresses and you get popcorn,
+
+[35:17] right? That's what's happening. When you do wheat, it's very hard to do regular wheat because the moisture leaks out of the out of the outside, right? Because it's not as hard, the outside's not as like, no, leakproof. And so it won't pop explosively the same way that popcorn will. So the solution to this, right? same with rice. The solution to this is to heat these items under a lot of pressure. What's a lot of pressure, uh, like 175 PSI in that range, because they're trying to get it up to the same temperatures that you would get when you're frying popcorn, like 360, 3 in that
+
+[35:56] range. 350 Fahrenheit, 360, around there, right? And so you start with a grain that has the proper amount of moisture in it, which I forget what that is. I can go look it up. It's something like 10% or something in that range, right? You then seal it, you heat it under a massive amount of
+
+[36:12] pressure, and what that means is that the water inside is hot, right?
+
+[36:18] And it's also under pressure so it won't boil. Then you release the pressure very suddenly and all of a sudden all that water expands all at once and it pops. It doesn't need the outside of the grain to hold the moisture
+
+[36:30] in, the way that you would with regular popcorn. So the unit that you pointed to on the video that the guy is using on the street
+
+[36:38] corner. I would not walk anywhere near that sucker. That sucker was so freaking ghetto, that thing could blow up at any second. I happen to know that when he's puffing that stuff, it's under at least
+
+[36:49] 150 PSI, probably higher, right? So you don't want to, basically, what you do is, is he literally
+
+[36:56] has a, like a, like what looks like a homemade boiler that he's spinning, and that's good, because you need to, you know, get the heat evenly transferred throughout it, right? So it's spinning over a fire that he has stoked with coal and with like what looks like a modified
+
+[37:12] hair dryer, right? And what looks like a freaking vice grip holding the whole damn thing together, right? He looked really happy, though. He looked like happy. He looked happy because he's not dead. Every 2nd that he works and he's not dead. He's happy. Then he sticks it into, you know, this what looks like a long wind sock, which was incredibly dirty, by the way.
+
+[37:32] I don't know that I bought. I mean it was incredibly dirty. And then puts a stick in, pulls the pin, bam, the thing blows up. Now, maybe this thing is actually manufactured by somebody to some sort of specifications, but the idea of heating something over an open fire with no protection that looks homemade to 170 PSI, 150, 170
+
+[37:53] PSI, and then explosively decompressing it time after time outside, it freaks me
+
+[37:58] out and put it that way. So how did I attempt to do this? I bought some pipes that were rated to 150 PSI or higher. Actually, I got like 80 schedule 80, which was rated higher than 150 PSI, made out of
+
+[38:13] steel. I put them all together with a heater, water heater on the inside, which was one of the weak points, and an
+
+[38:21] over-pressure valve so that it wouldn't go above the pressure that I wanted to, and a thermometer, all done with pipes,
+
+[38:26] whether regular pipes. Filled it with corn, includes my 1st test because I was trying to, I was, I was working on a, on a,
+
+[38:34] on doing a nuclear explosion out of candy and popcorn. And so I was trying to actually do a puffing gun thing for that. Uh, and uh, the problem was, is that the piping system that I had didn't seal properly. And so I was getting venting and steam out. I did get it up to like 120 PSI before I, and I
+
+[38:52] literally like, like I said, I used vice grips with like a, with a pull string to pull it. And,
+
+[38:58] uh, I, what I successfully did was spray burning hot popcorn kernels all over
+
+[39:04] my, all over my house. I didn't actually, I popped maybe 4 or 5 of them, but I didn't get it to be done the way way you'd want. And I think my main problem was is I tried to have a little bit of water medium in there to heat it. I tried heating it internally instead of having an external fire with rotation, which is the way that it's always
+
+[39:21] done, is external heat and agitation. And the piping system, it was just hard to get it to seal very well, that thick
+
+[39:28] pipe, because it was like 2 inch pipe. It was hard to get it to seal accurately at those high, high temperatures because I
+
+[39:35] used Teflon tape, but I don't know, it just didn't work. So, uh, I'm going to build one eventually because for the Museum of Food and Drink cereal exhibition, we're going to have a cereal exhibit in the Museum of Food and Drink, which we're working
+
+[39:46] on now. We have our 1st we have our Well, we have a new full-time employee at the museum of food and drink, even though he's not getting paid. He's not an employee, I guess, because he's not getting paid. But Peter Kim, formerly one of our lawyers at Devil Boys and Big Plimpton. Uh, Big Plampton. Anyway, so like they, he quit being a lawyer. He believes in the museum project so much. He quit being a lawyer, and he is now working a museum full time, which we're very, very excited about. So the museum will have one. There are small commercial machines that are not quite so wonky in Korea that actually make puffed rice cakes,
+
+[40:22] alaminute. And I forget the name of them, but it's something like, like, going, going. The noise of the actual thing working is what it is in Korean, but I don't know what the noise is. So I can't tell you what it is. But you could go look that up. The 3rd and the 3rd kind of machine, by the way, for cereal, and the one that was not invented early on in the
+
+[40:43] game, is the twin screw extruder, which basically was a piece of equipment that was invented for the plastics industry, and that's how they make Captain Crunch, and all things like
+
+[40:54] that. They basically have a screw under enormous pressure that takes in grains or whatever, under enormous pressure, and then
+
+[41:02] heats up the pressure and the actual screw mechanism of putting it through the thing, heats it up so that when it comes out of a dye at the end, much like a pasta dye, like a pasta extruder, but it's under such heat and
+
+[41:12] pressure that when it comes out the end, it puffs up into Captain Crunch or kicks or whatever.
+
+[41:20] And that's how they make all of those cereals. And so we're going to have one of those at the exhibit 2 because that's pretty badass, right? Yeah, I've always wanted one of those. I went to I went to visit Cornell years ago and they let me look at theirs. They have small pilot ones. shouldn't we get one? We should. Right? get Peter on that. Get Peter on that son of a gun. right? But we want a big one, like, that's the thing. if we got anyone out there who has used serial equipment. I called up the Purid Manufacturing Corporation, by the way, is the corporation that used to make all the old puffing guns. They no longer use those puffing guns in commercially in the US. They've moved to a system called a continuous puffer. That's a batch puffing thing. And, you know, they've moved to continuous puffers. And so all the old ones get sent back, refurbed, and now most of them are used in factories in Mexico. So I wasn't able to locate someone with an old puffing gun that wanted to donate it to the museum. So if anyone out there can get their hands on an old Puritan manufacturing corporation puffing gun. The museum would love, and we are now 501 c three, right? We're still pending? We're still pending, but believe me, we're going to get that 501 C3. So you'll be able to write off that Puritan pumping gun when you donate it to the museum and the little kids are going to be so happy when we're exploding cereal in front of their parents. Imagine that, like 10, 9, well, all the way down to one, boom, and like cereal
+
+[42:38] spray everywhere, goggles and bowls, and we're going to have like... Better than the, what was that store in Times Square? your kids like. Which one? Pop Tart. Oh, the pop tart pop-up? Pop Tart pop-up. They weren't making pop tarts. Here's the thing. No, they weren't making them. Yeah, no, they had these machine that you could make pick your own pack and it would do it, but it's not like, I mean. they charged a lot. Charged a lot. All right. Finally. Uh, in from uh, Elliot Papineau writes in, uh, longtime listener. Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. What book, and I got this over Twitter too, actually. Cool. I'm on the Twitter now, buddy. You know, if people keep addressing me in these questions, I'm going to have to try to answer one of them. Well, I mean, try, Jack, don't try. don't try. What the hell is that? Thanks. Nastachia is so rough. By the way, by the way, by the way, before I get into this question, I'm
+
+[43:29] going to run, you know, a minute late, like I always do, or 3 or four. But like, uh, so I say to Nastasia, like she, she says that she never answers questions here when I ask her because I don't give her the time to answer.
+
+[43:42] I think, okay. What you mean? Is that what you is that not what you say to me? I just remember David Chang's explanation. Well, we'll get into a second. We'll get into that a second. My point is, we're on the radio. It's not like Nastasia wants me to ask her a question and then pause for like 35, 40 seconds and wait for an answer. And I'm like, you know, we're on the radio. It's not like at the dinner table where like, you know, they can see the thoughtful pause, you know, you know what I'm saying? So she says, I don't give enough time. And she's referring to another time when Dave Chang was laughing at me. Nastasia, this is Nastasia's favorite comment of all times. Is it basically, and he was talking about like a demo I was doing with McGee, where I will ask a question, then answer it, ask a question, then answer
+
+[44:30] it without letting the other person... what color is the sky today? And Harold's like, well, and they, like, it's blue. It's blue. First of all, I'm not like that. I'm not like that. No, I guess. I'm not whatever. We can have more discussions about this later. But the final question in. What book do you recommend about alliums? I just ordered having your ramps and eating them too by Glenn Fackmeyer Jr.? Hopefully it does not suck. Now, 1st of all, I think Thakmeyer is an amazing name. Do you love that name? Fakmeyer. Because it sounds like you're mired in facts. Like, like, you don't even like facts, but like you're stuck in them like quicksand. You can't get out. You know what I mean? I like that. But you want to talk about how much have we already talked about how much you hate raps on the show? I think they're good. I don't like people's like of them. See, this is classic nastasia here. The actual product is good, but the people, the fact that people like them is no
+
+[45:25] good, and therefore she does not like them or does not want to see them. Same is true with weather. She doesn't like good weather. What? You feel the same about weather. No, no. a little bit. No, I still like the, you do not like weather, good weather because other people like
+
+[45:40] it. Because they get overly happy about it. Like with ramps, overly happy. Crazy. Okay. I feel you on the ramps thing. Thank you, Jack. Well, of course, you work in rampland. We're here at Roberta. Like Roberta's is like, you know, happy feely forage, grow, you
+
+[45:59] know? Okay. Hopefully, send your Fat Meyers book on Ramps does not suck. With ramp season ending, and green garlic, escape season beginning. Can you talk about some things to do with alliums, nitro muddling maybe? Uh, and uh, by the way, he also has a separate question, which I'll answer, which is what are some good books on uh, aliums. I'm also having, do you understand what this is? Is that a hoe? It's like, oh, he's also having a really nice hoe made by Red Pig? Is that, what do you call that, a hoe? Some sort of garden implement there? Made by a red pig tools for my mom for Mother's Day. Hopefully your mom does. Of course your mom doesn't listen to the show, but it looks like a very nice thing. I'm sure she'll be very happy. Have you ever considered using Twitter or Facebook for questions for the show? Well, I did get from you this question. So I am going to answer both parts of it. On? I don't own any books on onions exclusively. I own 2 books on garlic that address onions somewhat, and I'll talk about both of them. The one I've spoken about on this show before, which is, it's called garlic and other alliums by Eric Block. And it is kind of, it's supposed to be a compendium of lore and science and all this, but
+
+[47:10] it's, it has some of the lore and a lot of the history and a lot of the bibliography on garlic.
+
+[47:14] But the science is fairly in-depth, and it serves really kind of as a review from time immemorial of the
+
+[47:22] science behind the chemistry of alliance, which is quite complex. And some stuff on, on, like it's cookery and it's use, but it's strongest on the science. And on taxonomy and things like that, for garlic and other alliums, onions and whatnot. It's dense, right? The other book I have is called The Complete Book of Garlic, a guide for
+
+[47:44] Gardiners, Growers, and Serious Cooks by Ted Jordan Meredith. And that book is fantastic. And you had mentioned on the Twitter that you were interested in books that talked about cultivation. And that book is a nice book to read. depressed me because I don't have the ability to grow garlic. I dont have the ability to grow anything where I live because I don't get light. I can't even have a window box because I don't really get light in my apartment. Nastasia has a plot of land. Where's that sucker? 48 street. It's in a community garden. They gave me another plot because they were so impressed with my plot. Yeah, or no one else wanted it. I guess. We'll choose to think that it's because you did such a good thing. They told me I did a really good job. But you had that Latvian lady tell you that your job sucked. That was when it was all seedlings. Now it's all out and it looks beautiful. Better than the people next door? Oh, yeah. Nastasia, by the way, has a feeling that she's great at all the things like this, but I tend to think that she probably has a good garden. I do. I do. I do. I'll bring a picture Yeah? Maybe you'll post it on our post on the Twitter account? Okay. Okay. So the point is, is that this book is depressing for me because I can't grow garlic, but it doesn't even have recipes, which I love.
+
+[48:50] What it is, is it's a book about garlic varieties and uh, some history and some
+
+[48:56] lore and uh, how they're used in a culinary sense. What makes a great culinary garlic and all the different varieties and
+
+[49:04] planners' notes and how to grow them and where they respond best, with lots of great pictures, but without recipes, and clearly written by someone who cooks with them all the time and knows how to cook.
+
+[49:14] And these kind of books are rare. Usually you either have books that are basically recipe books that have something about the actual product, right? like garlic in this case, or you have books that are exclusively about
+
+[49:28] garlic that aren't written from the perspective of a cook. This is, you know, fairly rare in this kind of field and that it's a book written for people who are gardeners, but who garden with garlic, not because they're interested in garlic as a theoretical thing, but because they're interested in
+
+[49:46] garlic, the cooking item. And it's a good book for that. It's great. If you were planning on growing garlic, go ahead and get it. One of the best discussions of it is, it goes to a very good discussion in that book about, um, about why you would plant different kinds of garlic and it's because different kinds of garlic are good as a season progresses. very much similar to kind of what I say about apples, that apples. There's an apple for every time and for every place. So, you know, he goes through, where I thought it was a very great discussion of kind of the usefulness of having different varieties and also
+
+[50:19] of kind of the challenges of growing garlic and the fact that garlic, over the 1st couple years that you planted in your, in your garden is going to acclimatize to your garden. It's just really, I think it's an interesting book. I would go with that. I don't have a good onion book for you now. Garlic start as a seed? You plant the, you plant the, the one of the, yeah, you plant the clove. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Anyway, um, it talks something about using, he hasn't used the bobils that much, but it talks about using scapes and all those other things and what he uses, but it's not a recipe book, thank God. Um, as for uses, I mean, other than the ones that we always, I don't have any new onion uses, I mean, other than the ones we always, always harp on, which is pressure cooking onions, uh, which, you know,
+
+[51:01] Mills used to make ice cream with, uh, I like pressure. I like uh, doing like dual onion soup, like pressure cooked, massive amounts of pressure cooked onions into a beef stock or veg, I guess.
+
+[51:14] And then, uh, and then sauteing onions regularly and adding them for like mega onion soups. I like that. Straight up pressure cooked onion soup is a little light on onion flavor, right? Um, because but it's incredibly sweet. I mean, garlic, the same thing. Most of my tricks are pressure cooking, like pressure cooking, massive amounts of garlic to make sauces for pizzas that are like half garlic. I mean, I do that, you know, pretty much all the time. I make a lot of sauces that way. Do have any other good onion tricks? No? ice cream, you said? I already said that. Anything? No? No? Go get yourselves from Chinese chives. They're fantastic to cook with, wilted, sauteed with bacon. They're delicious. Um, anyway. So, uh, that is that. That is cooking issues and come back next week.
+
+[52:07] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[52:24] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. You got me all twisted and
+
+[52:37] I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.com. I'm Will Harris, and today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host and cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday, from roughly
+
+[0:37] 1245. Was joined in the studio by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, but when I opened up my bag, I found that my court containers of coriander syrup for tonight's event for the Museum of Food and Drinks spilled all over the inside of my bag.
+
+[0:49] And as everyone knows, I love sticky bags and losing all of my product, don't you, Jack? Yes. Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. Huge fan. Yeah, huge. Luckily, as is normal, I overmade what I needed, and so I'm pretty sure I'll have enough for the event. But we'll see. We'll give you a rundown next week on how the event went, but I am doing
+
+[1:11] beers and brats. So I'm going to do in a in a in a circulator immersion circulator. I going to hold some Bratwurst that was made by Pat LaFrida at about 140, which is 60 degrees Celsius in beer. Just going to let it sit there for a long time. And then as soon as I get there, but to the French culinary, which is where our event's going to be today. Good old FCI French Culinary Institute. I'm going to see what the hottest thing I have in the world is to finish the brats off and I'm just going to stick them in regular, I think, like Martin's potato rolls, right? That sounds good, right? Yeah, I'm gonna try to make it to the event. Yeah, it'd be awesome. And then, and then, right? So here's what I figure, right? I need something that's easy, because I need to roll in and be able to do the event, and that's easy. I need something as delicious. And I need something that's going to anchor you because we're having a whole bunch of really good bartenders there making
+
+[1:56] drinks. The events sponsored by William Grant, which is, you know, they do Hendrix and whatnot. Uh, Booker and Dax, Tristan from Booker and Dax is coming, and we're going to make a, uh, we're going to make a sort of like a coriander mule kind of a situation like coriander, uh, with a little bit of red pepper and lime juice
+
+[2:13] and uh, vodka, and we're going to carbonate that son of a gun, put some mint in it. I think people are just going to crush the hell out of it. Yeah, sounds like a crushable drink. Oh, yeah. Jason Lutrell is going a little nutbaggy. You ready for this one? Jason is Jason Latrell, a good friend of ours. He's doing, I swear to Christ, Welch's grape soda, and Hendrix gin. Wow. Right? Really? Well, look, I don't know whether he's just saying that to, like, mess with Nastasia or whether he's hit. I mean, he might, look, 1st of all, Nastasia, who I actually, you know, for those of you, I don't really like to give her crap unless she's
+
+[2:46] here. It's no fun if she's not here. Yeah, but she had, especially when she's off fixing my mistakes, apparently, because my core containers weren't sealed properly. But, um, I, uh, you know, she had never heard of Welch's grape soda before. No. Yeah. Is that an East Coast thing? I didn't think so. I mean I grew up with knowing Welch's grape soda. Right. I'm from New York, so I'm from New York, too. Biggie Smalls calls out Welch's grape soda. Yeah, exactly. You know, grape soda. What the hell? Grape soda in Hendrix? Look, man, I look, I think, you know, I trust my man Latrell. a good man. So I'm sure that it's going to be some delicious, but all I have going through my head is kind of
+
+[3:27] Biggie Biggie Smalls, you know. Uh, yeah. Anyway, uh, yeah. Okay. So, oh, but speaking of core containers, I discovered something interesting about core containers. I've been using them for a bazillion years and I recommend everyone go out and have 8 boatloads of court containers in their house because it's the way to store your leftovers in
+
+[3:47] your in your fridge. They stack, you can bring. They're awesome. They have only like one or 2 downsides. One is they get very brittle when they're frozen. Uh, and the 2nd is that if you if basically if you don't dry them out, well, they pick up smells. you have to smell core containers and make sure they haven't, you know, let them dry open and stuff like that. I always yell at people for this. But my wife doesn't let me nuke. Nuke means microwave, stuff in it to reheat it because she's worried about plastics leeching out. And I try to say that, you know, I don't know, maybe me. But one thing I have always noticed when you nuke with the lid on is that the lid deforms and explodes. You notice that, Jack? You ever done that? I have seen that before. Yeah, the lid deforms and explodes, but the container is fine, right? And one of the reasons I've always thought it was really fine, a microwave and a polypropylene, well, the core container, which are made of polypropylene, is that the melting point of polypropylene a lot higher than a lot of the other things we deal with,
+
+[4:40] like, for instance, polyethylene, plastic wrap. So you can actually pressure cook a polypropylene cort container, and it won't, you can't bend it still. It still holding its its structure. So, yeah, so I'm like, man, that's okay, right? Turns out, the quart container is made of polypropylene, but the lid is made, and I just noticed this today when I was looking at the
+
+[5:01] lids. The lid is made of low density polyethylene. Polyethylene, lower melting temperature. Weird. Why wouldn't they make it all the same? I don't know. weird, right? Although, you know what? kind of good. Maybe they want the lid to blow up before the core container deforms. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know, but the lid on it was polyethylene, and so that would explain why it deforms and blows off the top of the thing before anything happens to the
+
+[5:29] container. So there you have that. And I literally discovered that this morning. So there you have it. Now, uh, onto the question. Oh, quote your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. And by the way, Jack, you know, I was thinking about this. I know you think I should stick, like, you know, basically only technical, but you know, I know how to cook other things besides low temperature and, like, crazy stuff. you know, if you have any questions on things like, you know, I make a mean pancake. Yeah, mean pancakes. I make good pancakes. I can fry any damn thing. Anything. put the word out there. Yeah, I mean, like, so you don't, you know, you don't feel obliged to, like, you know, wait until you have like the one technical question a year that you have. If you have any question based on cooking, Uh, you know, and if I don't know, we'll have a fun discussion about it, right? I mean, if you happen to stump me off something that I have no idea, then what the hell? Fine. That's fun too, right? So calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. That said 184972128. have a really quick question. What's that? What did you think of the Blanca tasting menu? Carlo? Well, am I allowed to talk about it now? Oh, maybe not. I don't know. I was there on Saturday. Yeah, all right. Why don't you put the air? put a call in. Put a call in, find out if I'm allowed to talk about it or not. And then if I'm allowed to talk about it, then I'll talk about it. All right? I went to the WD 50 kind of new menu tasting. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, all the stuff was delicious. It was delicious. The interesting thing about it is the menu's entirely new, but for those of you who have never been before or wondering what it's like, it's still very clearly
+
+[7:02] WD 50 food. Like, you would not walk in there and think that I'm in a different restaurant.
+
+[7:07] You know what I mean? It's still very clearly what you expect from WD 50 just entirely new. Yeah. Nastasia's back. Were we able to save most of the stuff? Yeah? Is my bag totally ruined? We're going to have to clean it after. Awesome. Nothing I love. You know what? Here's what I hate. I made the bag myself. Like I bought the fabric. Super high, you know, high-end fabric. I sewed it myself, everything, design, cut, sewed, and now it's full of simple syrup, which is like my worst nightmare on
+
+[7:36] earth. It's the equivalent of nastasia being coated in leaves with leaf skin disease on them or something like that, which is kind
+
+[7:42] of, that's your worst nightmare, right? To be thrown into a bed of leaves with those weird, like, fungal gross coming out of them? Yeah, it's her worst nightmare. Okay. onto a real, we actually have interesting, like, interesting synergy of questions today. Hello, Dave, and the cooking issues crew. This is Darren from Sous vide Dash, and now the Poly Zion Sous vide Tolkit, which we'll talk about later. Here's a question which is a program for your iPad that allows you to determine cooking times for sous vide work and stuff like that, right? We'll talk about it later. With a completely different topic. The culinary application of static mixtures. I wonder if you've ever had any experience with static mixers. I have. By the way, before we get onto it. So what a static mixer is, is a static mixer is basically a tube. And then inside of the tube are kind of, imagine
+
+[8:30] like, like, it's hard to explain on the radio. They're like twisted plates that go crisscross to each other that basically when you're pumping a liquid through the tube, they twist, twist it and mix
+
+[8:42] it, and then it hits another tube in a different direction, and then twist it and mix it in the other direction, kind of like folding again and again and again and again, but it's going through a
+
+[8:49] tube. So there's no moving parts, right? So the basic benefit to the static mixer, R, that you get very, very even mixing, right? You can, you know, get extremely thorough mixing if you choose the right thing. And there are 0 moving parts and you don't incorporate air into the mixture when you're pumping it in, right? So these are the main, these are the main kinds of advantages. I mean, the disadvantage is you have to pipe everything through a little tube, right? I mean, that's the only downside really. Okay. I wonder if you ever had experience with static mixers. I've read about them being used in the production of mayonnaise and ketchup at an industrial scale. I've also seen very small ones that are used to attach to a double plunger dispenser for mixing epoxy. That got me thinking, could I adapt this technique using a small manual dispenser and a static mixture to create culinary emulsions? I did a little digging around and found a reference indicating that for stable mayonnaise, the oil drop of size should be between 2 and 8 micrometers, a.k.a. small. small. Okay. Uh, and but that's like super stable like shelf stable forever. That's like, you know, helmets. Anyway, I also found a paper indicating that small static mixers tend to produce droplets, 2 orders of magnitude larger than that, which was a little discouraging. So my question is, do you have any experience trying to emulsify with a small static mixer? There are all kinds of culinary emulsions that would be cool to make alaminute or even table side with a quick pull of a trigger. I wonder how much the larger drop of size will affect texture and stability for something like mayonnaise and other interesting
+
+[10:16] emulsions. I'm inclined to purchase some samples and do some experiments, but I figured if anyone has done it so far, it would be you. Any experience, suggestions, tips, tricks or feedback. Thanks, D. Okay. And they gave a shout out because he was with PPress. That Philip Preston, for those of you, not in the know from polycience. He was hanging out with Philip Preston and our boy Erve Moliver. We going to see today from the French Culinary Institute, Chef Ervei, the now Muay Thai Judo skiing, race car driving,
+
+[10:43] lunatic, French chef over at the French Culinary Institute. Anyhoo, here my theory is on static mixing. My main experience with static mixing has not been, in fact, all of my experience with static mixing has not been in the culinary field, but
+
+[10:54] has, in fact, been mixing epoxies and urothanes. That said, they are freaking amazing at
+
+[11:01] that. Uh, you know, I was like, you know, how good? And by the, you know, the, in real ones, you know, they're, the ones that I buy are like, um, oh, I don't know, about 10 to 12 inches
+
+[11:12] long, and they're meant to dispense, uh, you know, between 2 and 400 milliliters of a urethane casting resin.
+
+[11:18] And for those of you that ever mixed, you know, casting residents, you know that air bubbles are a nightmare and you have to vacuum this stuff out to get rid of the air bubbles and it becomes very problematic if you want a nice bubble free casting. with these things. And I really had my doubts. It's just freaking genius. It's just, it's, it's, and also when you're mixing, you have to sit there and you wonder whether you're mixing all around and stuff like this. And it's just awesome. You know, it just no air, no nothing, perfect. Um, okay, give me one second. I finish on this. So like the thing with the static mixer. Okay, listen. Wait, wait, hold on a moment. Howdy? take the caller and I'll go back to stag mix. Call her, You on the air. Hello? I think he had the Hello? Hi, how you doing? Oh, I'm on Skype, so it might be a little crappy. Nice. crappy. Okay, uh, I have a question about uh, rice based, Mexican or Shata. Oh okay. Nice. Uh, I, I, I thought it was an email. Sorry, I wrote a day. going to be kind of regurgitating. Uh, so most gringo recipes have you blend uh, uncooked rice with water and let it steep like overnight or something. Right. But it just doesn't taste very ricy. Uh, the flip size. I've read some recipes where they have you cook the rice to some extent, not like all the way, like the inside will be kind of hard and a little bit crunchy, and you blend this and
+
+[12:42] and strain that. But when you do that, it's super, super viscous and and not really drinkably thin, but
+
+[12:51] it tastes delicious and ricy, like rice pudding. So I guess what I want is like a drinkably thin rice pudding. But our, our, our, this is ricy taste and viscosity and inextricably linked or is there some way to separate them? And the, the, what, what, what, what, what things do you do prior to the uh, to soaking it with the, with the, with the uncooked one? Uh, I guess I'll usually, I guess I'll usually rinse it. You don't grind it. Uh, I grind it in the water. in a blender. Right. Let me think. It's an it's an interesting. a good one. I haven't thought about this. I have thought recently about another rice problem, but I'm thinking about this particular rice problem. I mean, the thing with viscosity, right? Is you're getting starch bleeding into the, uh, into the water and then, uh,
+
+[13:45] that when you're cooking it, what, a cooked starch is a thickener. Do you know what I mean? And so it's gonna thicken it. You could probably thin that starch with, I mean, the high-tech version of me says, I would just add an enzyme to break down the starch, and I'll thin that sucker down right away. It'll also make it sweeter. But there's got to be a real solution, right? When I say real, I mean traditional solution. I mean, I have a bunch of enzymes, literally that could drop in there and thin it out
+
+[14:13] in like in no time, flat, you know, and then it would keep that that ricy flavor. Have you had ones in Latin America made with raw rice that have enough of a
+
+[14:24] ricy taste for you? I haven't actually been to Latin America. I moved to Los Angeles, uh, uh, 2 years ago for grad school and I've had some pretty good ones there,
+
+[14:35] but. And they're made with, they're made with uncooked. I'm, I'm not sure what the, the ones I'm, I've had have been made with. I have a feeling a lot of them are made with mixes. Oh, mixes, right. You could also, yeah, you could use rice flour, too. Do you know what I mean? I thought about that, but I haven't tried it yet. Yeah. Or pre-grind the rice and put it in. I mean, I've been working a lot now. So how sweet are these things? When you buy the mix, do they add a lot of sugar? how sweet is it? They tend to be, they tend to be quite sweet. I would say. Yeah. Well, there's a question later on in the show, get to, uh, that has to do with stuff you should bring back from China, and Harold McGee just got back, uh, from China. And one of the things that he brought back, not a physical thing, but an idea is
+
+[15:24] these combination kind of yeast, rice, these yeast slash mold balls. And what's cool about them is that the mold in them actually sacrifice the rice, i.e. takes the
+
+[15:39] rice, starch and converts it to sugar to make it sweet. And then yeast will start fermentation and turn that sugar into alcohol. But if you only do it for a couple of days, right, the mold basically makes
+
+[15:51] what it's like a delicious, sweet rice drink that is super ricy and super
+
+[15:58] awesome. It's almost like an unfermented rice beer, like a wart. Now, I'm wondering whether or not traditionally, and but that's done with cooked, but it's still thin, but it's done with cooked rice. I wonder whether you could do something like that, if there's some sort of something, it's actually sacrificing the starch or breaking it apart. I just don't know. I have to think about it. But you might want to look into those things. You could buy them at any store in like any Chinatown near in a big city and they're called yeast balls. And when you add those to cooked rice. It takes a couple days, but like all of a sudden, the rice breaks and you have a thin, clear liquid that's delicious. Not Archata. So, like, it's not, it's off the off the subject, but it's... Oh, no, that sounds really cool. I'm happy to have heard about that as well. Yeah, so, I mean, go check that out and look into, you know, or the familiar Japanese version, you know, you take the Koji starter that they have and you add it to rice, it'll sacrifice. And if you don't let it go, I've never tested the Japanese version. I've only tested the Chinese one and it's made with a different mold. I can tell you from firsthand experience with the Chinese one. It's really freaking delicious and ricy. And so, you know, you might want to play around, play around with that one. You know, you store it at, you know, at roughly like 95
+
+[17:13] and like a breadproof or in your oven with just a pilot on if you have that. I used my dehydrator when I did the test, but it's really good stuff. But I'm interested in trying to think about your problem, but I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to think about it kind of in more detail. Hopefully someone out there has had some experience with this and they can write us an email answer so that next week I can come back with someone who's had some practical experience with
+
+[17:32] this. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Alright, cool. Thank you very, very much. 11 yes or no questions before you go. I'm in I'm in Tokyo for uh for 2 months and I know you're coming here somewhat imminently. Is the event you're doing here, something open to the public? Nastasia, is it? No. Really? Oh, that's too bad. All right. That's too bad, but thank you very much anyway. All right, thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Okay, back to static mixers, my favorite static mixers. So on the static mixer. I forget exactly where I left off, but the, like, when you're mixing plastic with it, it's amazing how thorough the mix is. So one of the problems when you're doing any sort of mixture, uh, is the fact that if you're using a blender or hand blender specifically, is that there's pockets of it that aren't blended the same amount as everything else and you don't have thorough blending all the way
+
+[18:25] through. It's just, you know the nature of the beast. Now, that's not so much of a problem if you have something big like a Vitapre, but there you go. So a static mixer would be good in an application where what you want is very, very even mixing in a very short amount of
+
+[18:38] time. You don't want the things to stay together very long. And you don't want to have to mix a large amount of product, right? The only parts that get mixed are the parts that's going through the little bit of tube. So if you had 2 things that couldn't come together until the last minute and you didn't want to waste them
+
+[18:52] all by blending and you didn't want to waste enough each time by having to have enough to blend, static mixer would be
+
+[18:57] fantastic. From an emulsion standpoint, the problem is that it's not that high sheer a thing. So emulsions are made in a number of ways, but basically, for any given system, the larger the amount of energy you put into sharing, to sharing the
+
+[19:15] thing together, the smaller the droplet size, and static mixers, to the best of my knowledge, just aren't that good at high shear. So it's going to be difficult to get super small emulsion size,
+
+[19:27] well, drop it size in them, unless you hit it with a lot of emulsifiers, in which
+
+[19:31] case what you're doing is reducing the amount of energy it takes to create an emulsion.
+
+[19:35] So if you have something that wants to emulsify fairly easily, right? Uh, and something that you needed to have it made al a minute. Like for instance, I don't know, I couldn't think of one off the top of my head, but something that's fairly, um, fairly fragile, right? that doesn't want to stay together a long time or something you don't want to mix because it might oxidize if you put it in a blender, then a static mixer might work quite well with
+
+[19:56] you. But I don't think it's going to get down to super, super small particle size. I just don't think that's what it's good at. Anyways, let's take a break and I will come back with more cooking issues. Baby, baby, baby. Oh, straight up, honey, really, I'm asking. Most of these niggas think they be acting, but they be acting. Who they attracting with that line? What's your name? What's your sign soon as he buy that wine? I just keep them from behind. And ask you what your interests are. Who you be with, things that make you smile? What numbers to thou? You gonna be here for a while? call my crew, you gonna call your crew. We can rendezvous at the mall around too. Plans to leave, throw the keys to little seas, pull the truck up front and roll up the next block so we can steam on the way to the telly. Go, you're my belly, a T-bone steak, cheese, eggs, and Welsh is great, conversation for a few,
+
+[20:43] because in a few, we gonna do what we came to do. Ain't that right, boo? Forget the tummy, we just go to the crib and watch a movie in the Jacuzzi smoke L's while you do it. Why do pastures is a 146 year old multi-generational family farm that works in cooperation with nature to produce artisan meat that is safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to
+
+[21:08] eat. Well, I fail. We ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically
+
+[21:15] sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated. We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastages.com. Wow. From the sound of it, sounds like he really loves having Biggie Smalls be the background music for
+
+[21:36] his, not so sure about that. I had to fit the Welch is in there. Oh, you had to get the Welch's grape fan. I totally totally agree. totally agree. Okay. By the way, Nastasia, I was walking here in the pouring rain, right? And with unknown stuff leaking all over the inside of my bag. And the guy, a guy walks past me in the baseball hat, practicing his rap on the freaking sidewalk. Like, what the hell is that? Like, what the hell's going on? Listen, if you live in New York, it's like a long-standing rule. If you want to learn bagpipes, right? You have to literally, no matter how crappy you are, you have to go out into a park or
+
+[22:11] subway station and just play the bagpipes because that's that's all you have open to. You cannot play bagpipes in your house. It's just not reasonable. You know what I mean? And so that's why, you know, you can hear some crappy bagpipes now and again in a park because what else are you going to do? There's no choice, right? No choice, no problem. Karen Smith says. But, uh, rap, you can kind of do in your house. So if you suck, why are you walking around the street, like with your crappy rap? You know what I mean? What does he expect? I'm gonna like walk by them and I'm some sort of like produce some rap producer. going to walk next to a rap produce book. Wow, that's the that's the exact pseudo-tough male voice that I've been looking for for years. You know what I mean? Weak. I don't know, his hat was nice though. He had a nice baseball hat. Okay, anyway, hopefully hopefully, well, there's no way. But imagine if he was a listener and he came and he beat the crap out of me, the next time I walked past him on the
+
+[22:56] avenue on the way to reverse. I love your rapper. I love it. was just kidding. Okay. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. from the UK, a long time listener, but it's been a while since I rode in. I have a question about ultrasonic homogenizers. More on a multiplication today. It's a really interesting week. I'm another vegetarian chef like Michael Nackin. of whom we're a fan, and greatly looking forward to his book being available in the UK. I'm currently working on it, so work on that, Michael. I'm currently working on my own modern vegetarian book, which would be out this summer, but I don't really want to weigh in on the whole recent vegetarian vegan
+
+[23:25] debate beyond saying I happen to be a lacto ova vegetarian, but see myself as a chef 1st and
+
+[23:29] foremost. That defines me much more than my choice not to eat meat. And I work within that niche or constraints, strive to be my best, creative and learn like all passionate young chefs. Sounds good to me. I recently got a hold of a polyscience, sonic prep. for which I just have a couple of weeks on loan. It's an amazing piece of equipment, emulsions in an instant with no added emulsifier, infusions, flavor extractions, all fantastic. It's a pretty on-inspiring bit of kit. Kit, by the way, is like, you know, cool stuff for those of you who've never been to the UK. However, I've noticed using it to infuse flavors into oil. I do this with a few herbs and other things, but each time into olive oil, that whilst I would get an herb flavor coming through great and very quickly, the infused oil in some cases took on a
+
+[24:09] mild, metallic, almost burnt flavor. I have a decent understanding of the cavitation process by which the sonic prep works, and I can't see why this would cause such an
+
+[24:16] effect, and none of the tests I've done so far did I run the machine long enough for the oil to become heated above just being mildly warm. I'm just running around 3 minutes each time and not on full power or even at a constant cycle for all of them. Also, I didn't notice this problem when infusing alcohol or working with a water base. Any ideas of what could be causing this effect or how to counteract avoid it? I hope I might overcome it with some informed trial and error, and there's tons of other stuff I want to try while I have it, but since it's on loan, any advice would be great.
+
+[24:39] And if there's any thing else you suggest, I should try it with too. That would be great. All the best, Eddie Shepard. And he said cheers because he's from England. Yeah. Okay, so here's the deal. I think your main problem is olive oil. Have you tried it with another oil? Olive oil classically. So listen, when you're making a mayonnaise, we all know that if you make a mayonnaise with certain kinds of olive
+
+[24:59] oil, all of a sudden, it can go bitter and messed up, right? Same way if you put olive oil in a blender and you overblend olive oil in a blender, like sometimes you're okay and sometimes it's messed up. Now, the and I forget what it is. I had a, you know, a long discussion with Harold McGee about, you know, what this actually might, what might be causing this. And, and I don't
+
+[25:18] remember whether he was sure or not. But it's just a kind of a well-known fact that this can happen with olive oil. So 1st thing I would do is don't do it with olive oil, do it with something else. something that's more neutral or something that doesn't have that kind of ability to go bitter on you. The other thing I've noticed is that, you know, 1st of all, for those who don't know, an ultrasonic homogenizer is basically an ultrasonic transducer, but on rroids that can put out a lot of
+
+[25:42] power, and it vibrates ultrasonically meaning faster than you can hear it. Ha, ha, ha. We talk about that in a second. But the violent, uh, going back and forth actually causes uh, little like cavitation, little vacuum bubbles to form that then collapse with a lot of force and do things like rupture
+
+[26:00] cells, make very fine emulsions, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I've had one for like, I don't know, 7 years, something like that that was given to me on loan, but I never gave it back from Branson's
+
+[26:12] ultrasonic, and it's the same style that everyone's using nowadays. It's 400 watts, which is, you know, pretty baller. Um, I never had the enclosure and I've never done too much experimentation with it because it makes people run from the room
+
+[26:25] screaming. You know what I mean? Like nostache, you've been in the room when it comes on, right? Yeah, I mean, like the, the, I don't know. It's like, yes, it's theoretically ultrasonic, but people like put their hands to their ears and run around. The enclosure apparently does a lot to stop that. But one of the 1st things that I noticed when I was using it, is that you could do this thing, that, you know, Nathan Mirville and Chris Young and Maxine have kind of popularized the idea of kind of created milks or constructed milks where you have a very, you have an emulsion with a very low oil amount in
+
+[26:54] it, and you, you know, similar to milk on the order of like 4 or 5% fat, and you emulsify that
+
+[26:59] in, and it gets really good results. And it's fantastic. My issue with it, I haven't really experimented enough with it to say what the awesome results with it
+
+[27:11] are because the results that I were able to get. I wasn't able to, it wasn't the exclusive way I could get them. So it's like the milks, it's very, very good at without adding the emulsifiers. But on the other hand, when I had to go say to someone, hey, look, you're a chef and would I rather have you spend $4,000. I don't know what it costs now, but that's what it costs the time. Would I rather have you spend $4000 on this piece of ultrasonic homogenization
+
+[27:36] stuff, or would I say spend $4 on an emulsifier and make it in the
+
+[27:42] Vitaprep that you already have? So, and that basic fundamental thing that I haven't found anything that I can't do another way with it
+
+[27:50] yet. Plus, the fact that running it, the one I have is a hardship on everyone around
+
+[27:55] me, and there's no way I could do it during service, has, has kind of stopped me from investigating it to the level that I probably
+
+[28:04] should. But I know that I investigated using it with avocados to try and get avocado oil when I was doing avocado in a
+
+[28:11] centrifuge and it ruined the flavor of the avocado, but I think that's because of oxidation of the actual avocado. You know what I mean? And then we tried to scorbic acid, but it didn't really help. So I think everything depends on the actual oil that you're using. I don't really have a lot of experience using it for infusions, although I'm sure it's great the same way that,
+
+[28:29] um, you know, any sort of like something that helps disrupt things at a small
+
+[28:33] level is good at getting 2 things to go together. I will say this. Ultrasonic homogenization requires to be really
+
+[28:41] good, requires a certain amount of pre-emulsification, right? So before you hit it with the ultrasonic homogenizer, put it in a blender and blend it up. ultrasonics aren't good at taking apart large particles, like pieces of like pieces of pepper grinds and stuff like this. It's just good at taking something that's already started forming and making it much, much, much finer. So for the best results, blend 1st and then hit it with the ultrasonic homogenizer to really do it well. Also, be careful with it because the demo I used to run with it about how dangerous
+
+[29:09] it can be, just stick it into a bar towel on a table and light the bar towel on fire from the power of the ultrasonic
+
+[29:15] commoditizer. Anyways, hope that's helpful. Uh, okay, hello, my name is Juventino Magana, living in Las Vegas. My wife is in China and coming home in a week. I wanted for her to bring me something that I can't find here and need help on telling what to bring. Please help. I'm a chef, by the way. Send for my iPad. Wow, it's a hard question. I wish I'd ask McGee stuff that he smuggled back. I no longer kind of advocate smuggling stuff back that you can't get in the US,
+
+[29:39] but, I mean, um, I mean, I would try to see if you can get some of the really interesting
+
+[29:43] rice wines from China over here because McGee was saying he had some amazing ones over there that don't taste like
+
+[29:50] any ones that he's had here. When I, when my wife was in China years ago, I had her smuggle me back, Chinese hams, like amazing Chinese hams, that were unlike any, like ones that tasted like blue cheese,
+
+[30:02] it was amazing. But, I mean, I can't really, I can't really recommend to you that you smuggle
+
+[30:08] back, uh, something that, you know, you could get in, uh, in big trouble for. Um, shoot. I don't know. I have to think about that. Let me see if I have to come up with anything by the end of the show. I'll put it in. But it's an excellent question. You know what? So we should start a website called Crap, I should try to bring back. And then just like with a country list. And like, here's stuff that doesn't get sent out. Like, you know, when you go to Turkey, crap, I should bring back celeb, you know what I mean? And then like whether or not you're actually smuggling and you get thrown in prison or whether or not
+
+[30:39] U.S. customs would stop you. You know what I mean? Like Hamoni Barrico or something like that. So like a list kind of of how illicit it is or whether it's just not imported and like why it's awesome, country to
+
+[30:50] country, for travelers, like cooking travelers, right? I mean, we won't do it, but that would be a good site, right? I mean, I would use it. I won't make it. Someone make that website and then get back to us so we can we can plug it. Okay. Hi, Nastasia and Dave and Jack. I hope you guys are rocking. Been cooking a lot and running into a lot of observations. Anyway, bone marrow. If I take it out of the out of the bone and soak it, it is white as a pearl within 2 days. I leave it in the bone. I soak it for a week, changing water regularly and there's still so much blood in there. What the heck? All right, I just to freak nastasia out. I printed a picture of like a ball of bone marrow and I'm showing it to her right now and she's making her putrid face because it's a
+
+[31:29] really, it doesn't look like bone marrow like we cook. It's like really, yeah, even Jack is, even Jack's giving his like wow face. But I think what's happening is if you leave it in the bone, remember, the outside of the bone is a lot less porous. It's a lot denser than the inside of the bone, which is where a lot of the hollow stuff is. And, um, bone marrow, uh, you know, I didn't have time to look
+
+[31:49] at like electron, uh, my cross we have. My feeling is, is that most of the chunks of bone marrow are longer than they are big around, and that if it takes 2 days to soak in, you know, soak from the, from like the cylinder side of it out, right, then it's going to take, then in those same 2
+
+[32:07] days, or 3 days, whatever, it's only going to soak that far into the ends.
+
+[32:11] So unless you're cutting the pieces, basically as the of bone, basically as thin as the diameter of the cylinder of marrow that you're working with, that it's not going to soak out at
+
+[32:23] a very quick rate at all. Not to mention which, there's more red crap in the bone besides the marrow that still has to bleed out as well. So there's more product in there. And you're stopping the slowing rather drastically the rate of diffusion of that stuff out. So I'm pretty sure that's just what's going on, right? That's my guess. But I'm willing to have someone call and say, actually, you're an idiot, and here's this phenomenon that's actually causing it, but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Also, if you're familiar with Francisco Magoya's post on the Alicia
+
+[32:52] pastry cream, then do you know what kind of ratio of starch do you use? I try this technique and cannot, and could really feel the starch on my teeth, big frustration. So what you're talking about is this post where to make pastry cream instead of like the normal, I looked at the post, so straight from the post that, you know, I was referring to, regular recipe for pastry
+
+[33:13] cream. Place 95% of the milk in a sauce pot with half the sugar, in another bowl, mix the remaining milk with the cornstar, stir it well, add the egg yolks and remaining sugar, stir until homogeneous, and it must be lump free, bring the liquid to a boil, temper the egg yolk, slurry, and then return it to the
+
+[33:26] heat and bring it to the 1st boil while stirring constantly. So basically, for those who don't know, pastry cream, basically like an anglaise mix, like a, you know, a custard with starch in
+
+[33:34] it. The starch stabilize it, you go to a higher mix. That's the that's the classic way. Put your ingredients together with the egg slurry, temperate so it doesn't curdle instantly, pour it into the hot mixture, stir constantly, bring it up to the boil.
+
+[33:44] The starch is actually protecting it when you're boiling, right? So Wiley makes his hollandaise with regular egg yolks and he just dumps so much starch into them that they won't curdle even when they're fried.
+
+[33:57] So the starch really is what's protecting protecting you there. So the Alicia procedure is a lot easier because what they do is, is you just mix the sugar with the
+
+[34:07] milk, and you boil it. And then you have the cornstarch and the egg yolk, and you mix those, and when the water brings to a boil, you just, uh, like kind of whisk the other stuff in. Uh, and then it just kind of sets. And the problem is, I think maybe the problem you're having is, is that the deal is, if you don't make the right amount of that, What you're using is the residual heat from the milk to
+
+[34:33] both cook the egg, cook the egg yolk out without curling it. the starch is there to prevent the egg yolk from curdling and cooking it, and B, you have to functionalize the starch. So the starch has to hydrate, swell, and cook before the temperature of your product drops too low.
+
+[34:51] So my guess is perhaps you are um, perhaps what's going on is you're doing too small a batch compared to what he
+
+[35:00] says. He says he makes at least, you know, more than a liter, perhaps your batch size is too small, and it gets too
+
+[35:06] cold too quickly, and the starch doesn't cook out. And so you're going to have a raw granny starch taste. I mean, that's a guess, right? Um, it should be possible, by the way, to just use an instantized agglomerrized starch, for instance, uh, ultra spurse, uh, you know, one of the ultra spurse lines from national starch. And then you really don't have to worry at all. As long as it's hot enough to pasteurize out the egg yolk and thicken it a little bit, then you don't have to worry about it
+
+[35:31] doing the starch in time. So maybe try try that. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. But if anyone has any questions, let them write in and again tell me that I'm an idiot. Uh, okay, so, uh, that was from uh, Philippe Lamont. PPress, our good friend Philip Preston from Polyscience writes in, and he says it's been a while since we've connected. I hope this email finds you well. It does. This week, Philip has launched an iPad iPhone sous vide application that he's very excited about. And he says, we believe this application will be of tremendous help to chefs and determine the correct cooking time for various thicknesses of protein.
+
+[36:03] Based on research done by Nathan. That's Nathan Mirvold, Chris Young, who's been on the show. Doug Baldwin and others, we can calculate the thermal conductivity of various proteins in various shapes and sizes. To determine the accurate cooking time, he uses the diffusivity of food, thermal conductivity of the food, the shape coefficient, which
+
+[36:23] basically, it's like a fudge factor. They're like, you know, it's like, I don't know, is it a sphere? Is it a cylinder or something in between? Meh. Anyway, uh, et cetera, et cetera. And they use the differential equations and they actually calculate it. Once you've entered these pieces of data, they calculate the time to cook, pasteurized to the surface or pasteurized to the core and show the log reduction of pathogens. We've collaborated with the guys from Sous V dash, which I know you've mentioned on your cooking issues radio show, and they had a question earlier in the thing. I think you'll see the improvements for user friendliness and streamlining that we did, and you can download it on the thing. I checked it out. It's true. The interesting thing is it's clearly derived from the sous vide dash guys that they worked with because it's the same basic workflow, but it adds things
+
+[37:02] like it actually shows you the curves of how the bacteria are being killed and it saves your It's very user-friendly, actually. It's really, it's good. I know how much it costs. I mean, we'll figure out how much it cost. I don't know how much it costs, but it seems to work well. Here's my, here's my issue with it. First of all, it has something like called a nice, an ice bath thing. And it's basically the only thing they allow you to do is to figure out your chilling time. If you're a chef and you're worried about how long is it going to take to chill my item? Um, you know, the problem with it is, is that when we advocate it, Bruno goes so from cuisine solutions advocates, uh, and we now advocate a
+
+[37:39] 2 step, 2 or 3 step chilling process. When you take something out of low temperature, the idea is you don't want to chill the food right away, if you chill it right away, you prevent the proteins from when they're still have the ability
+
+[37:49] to when they're warm from reabsorbing juices that have been expelled out during the cooking process.
+
+[37:53] And so Bruno Guseau, and now we recommend a process where you take it out of the, out of the water bath, cooking bath,
+
+[38:01] you leave it on the counter for 10 to 15 minutes, depending on thickness. and then put it into tap water to slowly cool it down from 10 to 15 minutes, and then an ice bath until it's cool. So it'll be nice if you have like a multiple regime chilling thing in there for chefs. If they really want to figure out how fast they're getting the core temperature down with their chilling regime.
+
+[38:18] Now, the other thing, and by the way, if you want to chill something quickly in a nice bath, and this is something I don't think people talk about, a really good way to chill quickly in
+
+[38:27] a nice bath, small amounts, is to keep your immersion circulator in an ice bath, set the temperature below 0 Celsius below 32 Fahrenheit, and use it to circulate your ice
+
+[38:39] bath, because you're going to tremendously increase your cooling rate by circulating your ice bath.
+
+[38:45] And this is something I think no one ever talks about. Never seen anyone write about it, but it's another way to use the circulation in your circulator to help you to chill things very much, much, much more rapidly because there's very little movement inside an ice bath.
+
+[38:56] And if you ever put your hand into an ice bath with a lot of product in it, you'll notice that there's big warm spots right next to where the where the product is. It can make a big, big difference. The other thing I'd really love to see in an application like this that they don't have is how to apply it to the finishing of your meat products. So, for instance, I have, when I'm finishing a product, you, like, I'll fry it or I'll put it on a grill or I'll put it in a pan for a couple of
+
+[39:23] minutes and you get a big temperature spike in the center out of that. So what you have to do before you finish it, if you don't want to overcook your meat, is you have to chill it a bit before you
+
+[39:33] do a cookoff. Conversely, I might want to know how long it's going to take me to fry through a piece of chicken in a deep fryer without using low temperature at all. And the same equations that they're using for low temperature cooking are applicable to these higher temperature cooking techniques. So what I would like to see is it also has something in there, be like, okay, I'm going to deep fry a piece of chicken. How long is it going to take to get my core temperature up? Or I'm going to put on a grill or on a deep fryer. The steak that I just finished and sous vide. How much of a rise am I going to get in the core? Because this is a place that a lot of people ruin their products? And you've already done the math, right? To get the answer for what's going to happen to the temperature on the inside? So just add those, add those separate things and I think you'd have a super duper winner. Jack, do I have time for one more or no? All right, cool. That was from our good friend, Philip Preston, and PolyScience. Hello, Dave and Nastasia. I have a question about carbonation. This is from Jonathan Hunter. I know you said last week that it's difficult to do carbonation from a keg, but I'm wondering if it is all possible. We are putting new beer lines in our space and I have 4 lines open. I was thinking about doing 2 lines for a spritzer like beverage, a French 75, an Americano, and one line for an NA and one line for carbonated water. We have a glycol system and we're running the lines about 20 feet. We can keep the cooler about 34 degrees during service. I was wondering if there's just no way to make this work or if we could piece something together that would be possible. Maybe if we carbonated the corny kegs ahead of time at 23 degrees and then let them sit with
+
+[41:00] a tank connected before we put them on the lines that might work, any help of this would be great. The question I have is if there be any way to attach a valve from a CO2 tank. Another question is whether or not there's a way to attach a CO2 tank directly to an ISI shaker. This would save us some money over buying cartridges. Thanks so much. Show is really helpful. Jonathan Hunter. Okay, I'm gonna take them in reverse real quick. You can absolutely connect a CO2 tank to an ISI. I've done it before. All you have to do is uh, get someone to machine the threads out uh, to um, to screw onto where you put the cartridge, right? And then go directly to a tank. I've done it before. It's not that difficult, but you do need some machining skills. Alternately, you could probably, you could probably figure out a way to ghetto rig it by like molding with plastic or epoxy, but I don't know whether or not it's going to hold gas and then it's going to be more
+
+[41:49] permanent, right? But eminently, eminently doable. I'm sure someone out there has a DIY. Do it. Someone sells something to do that already, but they charge a preposterous amount of money and they expect you to buy nitrous tanks
+
+[42:02] from them as well. Ridiculous amount of money. The other thing you could do is you could theoretically go through the dispense nozzle on it with
+
+[42:08] CO2 if you wanted to do that, and that might be an easier thing for you to machine or to
+
+[42:13] jerry rig, for instance. You could just you could just jam a piece of tube over the over the dispensing nozzle, right? and then take a hose clamp and tighten it down until it fits, and it might work. No guarantees on that nastasia, right? No guarantee. So if the thing sprays off and starts, you know, like flying around the room like
+
+[42:31] a snake, then, you know, don't blame me. But the good thing about that then is you could just put the, you could just squeeze it and put
+
+[42:39] the, you know, squeeze it and let the gas in. The bad thing is you'd have to unscrew that connector to vent it unless you put like a ball valve on the hose that let you vent and put change between doing gas and
+
+[42:51] knot. But it's all eminently doable, even with no machining technology. You could do it. Okay. Regarding the keg. Look, 34 is kind of, I mean, you're going to need to go with a low alcohol drink. You're also going to need because the lower the alcohol, the less foaming you're going to have, and also the warmer it can be without getting excessive foam
+
+[43:12] out, and the better carbonation you can get at those lower levels, right? So typically when we have our carbonate range, we're running them at like 23, which is where you say, carbonating in
+
+[43:20] that and then letting it come up to temperature is not going to reduce your foaming problems.
+
+[43:24] That's the issue on it. Now, plenty of people serve carbonated drinks out of kegs. The question is, is what level of carbonation are you going to get? The, you know, if you, the best result I've seen out of kegs are when you get a cold plate and you run the drink and a cold plate sits in the bottom of an ice
+
+[43:40] wall and you run the drink through 2 segments, 2 whole channels of a cold plate.
+
+[43:45] So in into the cold plate, and when instead of going out of the cold plate, to a gun, back into a cold plate, and then back out again, and using, there's a valve called a Becker valve,
+
+[43:57] can squeeze valve that you can get from a place called Mark Powers in Guntersville,
+
+[44:01] Alabama. And it's especially made valve for carbonated things, and it's about an order of magnitude better than a
+
+[44:08] gun, because it's got a big compensator in the back of it that really allows you to dispense between a high pressure and a low pressure without losing a lot of
+
+[44:15] bubbles. And it's just the only way to do it. That's the way I do all my carbonated beverages and have since, you know, since, I don't know, for like 10, 10, 12, 12 years. That's what I've been doing using that kind of a thou system on carbonated beverages, you know, at home, just with Seltzer. So you can do that, but you need to make sure that the carbonation
+
+[44:33] level, it's not going to be as high as it would be if you could keep the temperature lower. It's possible to salt out an ice bath and have the temperature go lower and or use glycol and get it lower even like
+
+[44:44] you say, you can't get it lower then, but then you have to worry about freezing the stuff out inside of the cold plate, which can be a little bit of a hassle. So the long story is, yes, it's possible. The short story is, and the short story is, is that whether or not it's feasible depends on what level of carbonation you want and how much you're willing to tolerate
+
+[45:02] foaming. I hope that's helpful. Come back next week for cooking issues.
+
+[45:12] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on HeritageRadioNetwork.com as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[45:30] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. All twisted.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. This is Sam Edwards, proud sponsor of Heritage Radio Network, Surrey Farms.com.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live every Tuesday in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:36] Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Join today with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, who's going to leave directly from here to go to Seattle for the
+
+[0:44] modernist cuisine dinner. Portland first. Portland, where are you in Portland? Stumptown. Even though I don't, even though I don't appreciate good coffee. Well, okay, we'll get into this later. By the way, Nastasia brings up something like that. There's someone later made a comment that basically that Nastasia. You should pick on me more so that the arguments seem like... Well, she has, she says she agrees because what she wants you, the listener to feel. is that somehow, like I only pick on her. Instead, what actually happens. I'll just give you a, here's the thing. So, uh, for a living, Nastasia and I try to tell people what they should be eating, you know, not what they should be eating in a way you should eat this, but try to help people make better decisions, to make things better, to do a better
+
+[1:27] job making food, using technology or otherwise, whether it's with cooking issues, whether it's at Booker and Dax, whether it's at the museum of food and drink, we spend all of our time trying to increase the quality and not the snobbery, but the quality of
+
+[1:40] uh, what people can produce and do produce and do consume, right? So, like, what nostalgia will do is not once or twice or 3 or 4 or 20 or 120 times, but
+
+[1:53] more, poke me with things that she knows will bother me. For instance, her favorite coffee happens to be from one of those quilted, like, boxes on the side of the street with wheels. You guys know what I'm talking about? Also joined in the studio with our intrepid engineer and the guy who keeps the entire heritage radio running Jack
+
+[2:09] Insley over there. Hello. Yeah. Jack, you know what I'm talking about? those quilted, those quilted, like, they got like stale bagels and coffee in them. So, Nastasia, her point is that she likes to say that this is her favorite coffee because, and the 1st 30 or 40 times, I didn't let it irritate me.
+
+[2:27] And then, because it's not like, I could say, hey, look, Nastasia, you enjoy that coffee, right? It's not that you don't enjoy it because somehow you enjoy going down to the cesspool that is your street and
+
+[2:39] and buying a coffee from this guy and somehow that's an enjoyable human interaction that doesn't involve hipsters.
+
+[2:45] Because folks, Nastasia hates hipsters. And, yeah, hates them. And good coffee and hipsters in this city, they go together. Do they not jack? Most cities. Yeah. Yes. Okay, fair. Fair. Okay. Uh, she hates going to uh, Starbucks because she hates corporations and and people who work in them. Jack, you can agree with that. Oh absolutely. Yeah, yeah, but she so she hates that. And she hates the general alternative, which are hipsters, right? Because you're not, it's hard to get unless they're an owner, like a 50-year-old non-hipster to sit around and make you a coffee all day. Jack, am I correct about this? You're spot on. Yeah. Good coffee is good coffee, though. That's what I'm saying. And there's no snobbery to enjoying good coffee. It's just, it's, it's a right, it's a ritual. Like, literally, there are peasants somewhere, most likely, picking the coffee cherries that they then
+
+[3:36] processed or shipped all the way around the world to make a cup of coffee for you. Respect it. That's all I'm saying. Respect the coffee. You have a caller. Okay, call her. you were on the air. Hey there, Dave. I wanted to ask about pressure cooking. I am in the enthusiast category, not a home chef and have been listening to your show for a while. Long enough that I memorized the phone number, which is a little scary to me. Wow, cool. because I forgot to mention it. Good. Uh, and uh, uh, that was it. I can't really afford this, the sous vide equipment, the low, the low temperature right now, but I did get a pressure cooker, and because I've heard you mention it a bunch of times, and I was curious about some recipes. I hadn't really heard you talk too much about like, what the pressure cookies really good for. I really, I got it in the mail and I was like, well, what do I do with this? Okay, what kind of pressure cooker do you have? Uh, it's just a, it's a 6th quart and I, I can't remember the brand. Does it vent or does it not vent? Like, in other words, when it's when it's running, does it constantly put steam out or not? I haven't even tried again. So the pressure cookers in general, they all pressure cookers that you that you buy. It's gas or it's electric? It's, uh, it's stove. Yeah, so all stovetop units, basically, can either generate 5 PSI of pressure or 15, right? And so they. Yeah, yeah, no, you could do, in other words, they're usually setable to do either. Oh, I see. Okay, great. Right. most of the recipes that I do are based on 15. The main difference is, is that certain pressure cookers have a pressure regulating mechanism in them that regulates pressure without venting
+
+[5:21] steam. So they use a spring and you actually can see like a spring traveling up without any steam coming out of the units. Notably, Coon recon has ones like that. Then other pressure cookers. They let you know they're at pressure and they regulate their pressure by emitting steam. And so you have to have steam emitting from it, a little bit, not a lot, in order to judge whether you've reached the proper pressure or not. Okay. So one of the great things to do with pressure cookers is stocks, stocks and soups. What you need to realize when you're doing that, when you're making soups in general, in a pressure
+
+[5:58] cooker is that pressure cooking drastically mutes the flavor of things like
+
+[6:03] onions, it gets rid of a lot of their pungency, but it also amplifies their sweetness.
+
+[6:07] So I like a lot of that sweetness from onions. So I like, I quadruple my onion base in a recipe, right? But things like carrots, they stay sweet, but they don't get more or less sweet or celery. So if you just take the classic mirepoix there. Okay. But what happens is you get extremely fast removal of gelatin and flavor from the meats. So you can do a pressure cooked stock in 15 minutes,
+
+[6:36] right? And then you let it come down and then you can do, you can put a 2nd set of bones into a 2nd stock. I could do a triple stock, which is extremely indulgent, I grant you. But in about an hour. The trick is, if you're a pressure cooker is the kind of pressure cooker that releases steam,
+
+[6:53] I found that there's a flavor degradation in, in the stock versus regular, regular production, it's still faster, it's still
+
+[7:03] good. But a pressure cooker that does not really release steam, makes a stock that in my estimation and the people have tasted. darker, meatier, and tastes better and has better flavor than regular cook stock and is also faster. Whereas if you have one that releases steam, then the flavor is not quite as good as regularly produced stock. Still good, but not quite as good as regularly produced stock, but it still is quicker. One way around this is something that I learned actually from, um, mirror old and young and and Maxim, uh, from uh, modernist
+
+[7:37] cuisine, is they actually do smaller stocks inside of mason jars
+
+[7:41] in the pressure cooker. So when you're doing that, there's a couple of advantages. We're doing a soup or something with meat in it that way. One, it's sterilized. If you cook it long enough. You have to know what you're doing, right? So it's shelf stable at that point. But, you know, unless you read up on it, be careful. okay? Second, there is no choice. There's no way that volatiles can leave. And so even with a pressure cooked events, you can get all the benefits of an unpressured cooker, and the 3rd one is, you can do extremely small volumes. So if you have, um, something, um, like a squab, and you don't have that many bones or some sort of game bird or anything like that where you don't have a lot of the product to begin with, you can still make a very concentrated flavorful stock because if you put it into a mason
+
+[8:25] jar and you can get different sizes of mason jars all the way up to a liter and a half if you wanted to, uh,
+
+[8:30] then uh, you can make those things very concentrated in small quantities.
+
+[8:34] So that's a good thing to do. Another great thing with pressure cookers is pressure cooking eggs. You let them, you let them hard boil for a couple of minutes with the lid off. then just so that they're set so that they don't rupture, then you bring them up from cold. Then you close the pressure cooker, allowed to come up to 15 psi, cook it for between 45 minutes, an hour and 10 minutes, let it come down naturally. if you vent it. Uh, the eggs could explode. And then when they're cool, you'll open them. You'll see that they're brown, and they'll have the, out, the whites will have a kind of nutty toastiness, and the yolks will have an aroma of kind of giblet, gravy, kind of chicken livery aroma, which I find
+
+[9:15] uh, quite awesome. And that's due to my art reactions in it. Pressure cooking mustard seeds in vinegar. You have to blanch them once or twice to get rid of the dirty taste. Then after you pressure cooked them in vinegar, then drain them and toss them in sugar, makes an amazing garnish. Horseradish, grated, again, blanch to get rid of the dirty flavor, pressure cooked. You can make horseradish purees that taste of horseradish, but aren't very pungent. I actually use the pressure cooker all the time. And this is something I don't normally do. I would never do this to serve someone. in a restaurant situation because I would just do a long cooked braise. But, um, pork shoulder, just hacked up with a bunch of, uh, you know, you just get like, you know, your 3 or 4 favorite ground dried chilies and, uh, you know, pork shoulder and
+
+[10:03] even a, even, you know, I always have the, I always, I always use chicken stock because I always have chicken stock in my freezer, but any kind of stock in there, uh, and just very minimal amounts of
+
+[10:11] liquid. The trick with pressure cooking is a minimal amount of liquid in there because you're not going to boil a lot of it off. But they're, they're fantastic for, you know, for, for all of these things. And then you can get into kind of crazier situations like trying to do pressure cooked caramels, but they require a little bit of tweaking. But yeah, pressure cooker, you're going to have, not only that, I don't know where you live, but summertime's coming
+
+[10:37] on and nothing beats, uh, pressure cooking, you know, summertime pressure cooking is awesome because you can, you could tear off
+
+[10:43] uh, a lot of ingredients in it without releasing a lot of heat into your kitchen because once they're at pressure, they have, they're very, very
+
+[10:50] efficient, once they're at pressure. Because remember, you have to throttle it way down once they're cooking. So I think you're going to, I think you're going to enjoy it. Cool. Thanks. Hey thank you. one quick comment for Jack. Oh, Jack, here you go, Jack. What's up with the reverb button? At the end of the show, the reverb button always goes off over the credit. Wow. It makes me very happy that somebody noticed that. Thanks. That's just that's just to keep me entertained back here. Yeah. Thanks man. Nice. Nice. Speaking of, thank you very much. I was listening, by the way, quite correct. Call your questions 2 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. All right, so back to Nastasia and Her Coffee. The main point of that was, the main point was that is that she'll say something like, I don't like that kind of coffee, and to you, the listener, when, and
+
+[11:39] I, I, on purpose, knew she was going to do something like this, so I didn't go crazy. But when I go completely bonkers when she says something like that, it's because it's as though she's opening a wound that hasn't even healed
+
+[11:52] yet, that she's been stabbing me with the same knife for like 2.5 , 3 months. And this that particular one years. So her one of her little joys in life is to set up these situations where she can make me look like a tyrant in
+
+[12:06] public, uh, through this kind of careful application of minor
+
+[12:11] irritants over long periods of time. It's not that calculated. really not. I mean, that just comes naturally to you? Anyway, hopefully I'll come back with an appreciation. for coffee. Is are you going are you going to see Dwayne or hipsters? Yeah, or histsters. Right, right. You know, Portland, Portland, many great things have come from Portland. Andy Ricker. Jack, you going to see them out there? Jack, you been to that restaurant yet? Pacpak? No. What the hell's wrong with you? Jesus. It's in your hipster part of town. Wow. Damn. Also, speaking of reaver button. I listened to a little bit of the show to check how the iTunes worked. I sound like I'm on coke most of the time. I'm trying to speak slower today. Like, I'm telling you guys, I'm not on, like, my drug of choice is alcohol and consumed, hopefully responsibly on most occasions. What? That's what my drug, my drug is rage, rage. Yeah, rage. Anyway. So I'm trying to speak a little bit more slowly today. If you guys have any opinions on whether I should speak at this pace or at my normal pace, give me a call. can't help it. Like, I'm trying right now. deliberately slowing myself down, so I don't sound like I'm... I want to know if people like the personal antidotes that you that you say, tell. Like what? I don't know, just some of your stories I enjoy. Like when it's all scientific and food. I told people, you know, call in about waffles, anything. We'll talk about anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No question is too stupid. That should be the new tagline for the show. No question too stupid. No host. No host too smart, no question too stupid. All right, there we go. Dave and Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, which was abbreviated here to NTHL. take you to figure out. What? Did you get that right away? I didn't. You didn't? Yeah, well, you don't yeah, whatever. Okay. Greetings for New Hampshire. Chris Anderson in the monitor's pantry pointed me to your show and I've been enjoying the podcast with Memorial Day around the corner. Oh my god, it is around the corner. Nastasia's going directly, by the way, from Portland to Mirvold in Seattle to Japan. And I'm making her fly to all those locations with three. Count them 3 red hot pokers. Oh that's fine. I have a stop in Philadelphia. See? What the hell's wrong with you? Hey, listen, Nastasia, here's the thing. I'm sorry, I'm going to get to your question in one second. Here's the thing. Nastasia and I are the 2 cheapest people on earth. We are so freaking cheap that even though we're out on the
+
+[14:34] L-train, like, how many transfers do I got to get to take a subway with all my stuff to the to the
+
+[14:39] airport to LaGuardia, so I can, I'm like, listen, Nastasia, listen, we have a company now. Booker, I want everyone to listen to this. Booker and Dax will pay for you to take a car service to
+
+[14:52] LaGuardia, the airport. That's funny. was looking for the applause and I found that. Yeah, which is even better. Yeah, but it would be it would be hard to, um, it would be hard to kind of understand the
+
+[15:07] deeply ingrained cheapness that nastasia I had in general. We're some cheap people. Anyway, okay, so with Memorial Day around the corner. Can you summarize some specific time, temperature and prep recommendations for low temperature for insurance and other low temperature cookout dishes off the top of my head
+
+[15:25] are sausage and beer, hamburger, fried chicken, strip steak,
+
+[15:29] ribeye, and others? I have a polycine circulator, and will likely cook, chill, retherm, and finish on the grill slash fryer, et cetera.
+
+[15:36] How do you guesstimate minimum return time for a mixed pot of proteins? Is the maximum whole time 4 hours minus the cook time? Uh, and there's another question, but this, that, which I'm going to get in one second. In fact, I might do it later because it's going to take me a 1000000 years to answer that one, and Nastasia doesn't want to hear about any science, apparently. But these questions are from Rob Treypas. And by the way, thank you for telling me how to pronounce your name because there's no way I would have gotten it off the spelling. What would your guess have been? No, I don't know, but I knew you were going to appreciate that. And I did too. Yeah, yeah, we appreciate that kind of thing. We appreciate it. Unless your name's Smith, in which case I know how to pronounce that already. Okay. Uh, so, on retherm time. By the way, don't worry. Everything on how long you can hold a meat depends on the temperature of the bath. If the bath temperature is extremely low. So if I'm doing, so 1st of all, your 1st question was cooking for insurance. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's what you do is you use low temperature cooking, which is using a water bath or a combi oven or
+
+[16:34] CVAP is using a very, very accurate temperature to cook the meat all the way through.
+
+[16:40] Now, the meat at this point is not finished. In general, when I do cooking for insurance, low temperature for insurance. I don't do any kind of pre-treatments to it at all. All I'm doing is assuring that the center of the meat is cooked exactly where I
+
+[16:52] want it to be. And then I cool it. Okay? And so for chicken, breast, it would be 63
+
+[16:59] degrees, Celsius, for chicken leg, it would be 65, 66 degrees, Celsius, for ribsteak, it would be 55 degrees, Celsius. And, you know, the list goes on and on for sausage. It would be, I usually do 60 or 140 degrees. It's a little pink in the center, but I like it that way. Did you like the brats we had? Yeah, I love them. That was 60 degrees. Pat Lafrita donated to the museum food and drink event we had last week. Thank you for people that have been to our fundraisers in the past. And Pat Lafrida made up a bunch of delicious brats. We circulated them in Brooklyn, Brooklyn Brewery gave us a bunch of beer, graciously gave us beer to circulate the brats in, and we circulated the brats at 140
+
+[17:43] degrees Fahrenheit, 60 degrees Celsius, and then grilled them off. Man, were those good. They really good. Man, on Martin's potato rolls. What's the name of the mustard we got? That was good mustard too. Look it up. That was delicious mustard. Anyway, delicious. So what you do is you cook it all the way through. And then when you're finishing them, and a lot of times we don't retherm when you're doing for insurance, we don't retherm using
+
+[18:07] or reheat using low temperature. We just do traditional cooking methods. So if you're doing a prime rib. Here's my recommendation for a prime rib. Cook an entire prime rib to 55 degrees all the way through. Now it's medium rare, rare, medium rare in the center. It's good, right? Whole thing's good. Now, let it cool down. Wrap it. Let it cool down. Put it into a very hot oven and just wait for the crust to develop. What you want is that nice, crispy crust on the outside, and with a prime rib, actually. You want a little bit of overcooked stuff on the outside. Otherwise, a prime rib doesn't look appetizing when you cut through it because it's all one color of meat. But all you need to focus on is delicious crust because the inside is already cooked to where you want it, right? And so that's the essence of cooking for insurance. Duck breast, 57 degrees Celsius, about 135 Fahrenheit. You want to cook it for 45 minutes. Make sure you flatten the breast so that the skin will render later, let it cool down. And then all you need to focus on is searing off the skin. And searing off the skin will reheat the meat enough to serve it, but it's not going to overcook it because you're just focused on the
+
+[19:09] skin, so your pan heat can be a little bit higher than it normally would. Right? So, uh, and basically anything can be can be done that way. Hamburgers, I do it 55 to 57, depending on how squeamish the people are who are eating it. Uh, and then on a hamburger, uh, a hamburger, sometimes you can even like cool all the way down. You got to be a little careful to not let oxygen in the bag. Otherwise it's going to be a problem with rancidity when it reheats, especially if it sits overnight, which you don't want to do.
+
+[19:36] And then, you know, you can let it cool down and then deep fry it and they're great. Ribsteak. If you're going to serve it right away, I would drop the temperature to 50 degrees Celsius, but not if you're going to serve
+
+[19:49] it in a health department kind of, but I do that at home, but don't let it sit very long at 50. I would only let us sit a couple of hours at 50 C because there you're at the borderline where bacteria are going to start coming back to life. They won't, but, you know, you don't want to be in that situation too long. But if you're holding something like a sausage above the temperature at which bacteria or dying, and the temperature keeps getting revised down and down. But sausage you can hold easily at 140 or even lower.
+
+[20:15] You're going to be killing bacteria. You can hold it for infinity, basically. You know, the texture will start going down, but you can hold it for infinity. Um, how's that sound? Is that good? All right. I'm going to come back to your other question after the commercial break and answer a little bit later on
+
+[20:33] cheeses. Come back, cookie issues.
+
+[21:11] You'll only come out tonight I mean a hungry time. Nothing new, I've seen it here before. Watching a wedding Was she sitting with you when you got her eyes around the door? So many a pain to see. What you think? You get it for free? The woman's wild, she can't tap by the perfect eye you want. Money's a matter If you're in it for love, you ain't gonna get too far. The following program was sponsored by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Summertime is not the only time when barbecue is welcome. At S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, Sam Edwards has been working his magic on ribs, briskets,
+
+[22:08] hip cooked pulled pork, and much, much more. Add a few of their sides, and the party is complete. Entertaining has never been so easy. To order, go to virginitraditions.com. The reverb busting it out. Call any questions? Oh, you have a caller right now, but let me just say this before I tend to call her on. I like myself from Sam Edwards ham. Sam Edwards, though? does not enjoy the potty mouth. Does not don't curse around Sam Edwards. It's true. traditional man. Color, you're on the air. All right, uh, well, you know, I hear Natasha's coming to Portland. So I don't actually have a question. I do have one about the pressure cooking stock in the camera pool. But I do have a suggestion, uh, which is, if you only go to one brewery in Portland, it would be go to the Cascade Brewing Barrel House, which is fantastic, and all they have is sour beer.
+
+[23:00] And it's constantly changing, and it's probably the, uh, the best place. Like in general? Yeah, no, no, like seriously, in, in general, I, you testimony to choose from, it's the one
+
+[23:18] place you just keep going back. It's changing all the time. There's, uh, it's like seriously, the best place in general. The cheese bar is good too. Awesome. I'll check it out. So what's it called? Cascade? Cascade Brewing? Cascade Brewing. barrel house. It's on, it's on Belmont. It's, it's just constantly changing sour beer and it's, uh, it's a fantastic value. as well. And they specialize in sour and sour beers, like, uh, like, uh, Rodenbach style or what? Well, they have, they have some roden box now, but they'll do, they'll do everything from, uh, from sour wheat beers, uh,
+
+[23:54] to, and then, and then they'll barrel age them, and then they'll serve some of them live from the barrel. Um, and uh, they'll add. I mean, the most random fruits and nuts that I haven't, uh,
+
+[24:07] trying to remember, there's ones like a, I can't even pronounce the nut that they put in
+
+[24:13] there. But it was, it was fantastic. No, Nastasia likes it, actually. If she's going to have a beer, it's hard to get her to have it, frankly, which I don't want to bring up right now. But she likes beer with acidity. I do. So she, this might maybe be the place for her again. I hope to hear back from her on how much she enjoyed it. Yeah thank you so much. Yeah. I got the stock in the in the can, though, when you're when you're canning. What does the, if you, if you add any aromatics or, uh, or, uh, you know, when you add vegetables to it? Does that, or are you talking about just making it with the, with the bones? Because
+
+[24:48] when, with those breakdown or something, if you listen in a can for a while? Have you left them a long time? Probably. I mean, uh, you know, the ones they were doing, they were doing almost like, um, I mean, think about
+
+[24:59] confites are done in jars all the time and they're delicious and there's bones in them. So once it stops cooking, you're not going to get that much more extraction, I mean, in other words, I don't think you're going to be ripping the calcium out of it, if that's what you mean. Dependent because it's not going to be acidic. You know what I'm saying? Um, and in things like comfit that are often jugged or can processed,
+
+[25:21] um, they're fine for for a long period of time, but I think in modern cuisine, they were making just smaller versions of
+
+[25:28] stocks. I haven't seen that section in a long time. So you're stretching my memory banks. And when I did get to look at it, I have to make a confession, I don't own it yet. So I've only gotten to look at it when I have like pawed through it at the events I've gone to. Do you know what I mean? So, so, and I mean, I know all those guys, and I've, I talk to those guys all the time, and, and I've read, you know, chunks of it, but literally sitting at a library, you know, not, uh,
+
+[25:57] and I will own it. I'm not, it's worth the money. You know what I mean? But I just don't own it yet. Because it meant if I told my wife, hey, honey, I spent $500 on a book. What? You know what I mean? Any booker and Dax alone a copy. We keep it at the what's it called? Uh, so yeah, so uh, did that answer your question? Yeah, I think it does. I have a question for the caller, actually. Twitter. Twitter wants to know if that brewery uses spontaneous fermentation. You know, I believe they have their own cultures now, so
+
+[26:28] they there, it's actually in the barrels now. And so when they, when they put the beer into the barrel, um, it picks up all the uh, lactamacillus and uh, botanomyces
+
+[26:40] and uh, whatever else is in there. And so they've got, uh, they've got different barrels, and then they'll blend some of them together towards the end. But I'm not sure if that originally came from spontaneous fermentation, if, if the cultures that are in the
+
+[26:55] barrel. But I, I think they are because they have their own, um, they get like all their, all their fruit from around here and they just, they just let it go. They're really really, really good. Cool. Thanks. We also have another caller, guys. All right, call her. you on the air. Hi, David, it's Andy from Chicago. Hey. Hey, how you guys doing today? All right. Good, good. Hey, I had a meal at Charlie Trotter's last Thursday at the kitchen table. was incredible. when are they closing that down? When are they closing down? Hey, I'm not having trouble hearing you. I think I might need a call back. Well, you talked, all right, you call back in a second. I want to hear about the dinner, Charlie. Give a call right back. I will, thanks. So while he's waiting to call back, Michael Nakkin from Urba Voracious, uh, wrote in. And, uh, thank us for mentioning the book. We've read the book. I enjoyed the book. And by the way, it gives a well-deserved shout out. He does two iceberg lettuce which is delicious. I like iceberg lettuce. Who doesn't like iceberg lettuce? It's some crunchy, cool refreshing stuff. Jack, are you with me? I'm on board. Nastasia even is on board. Where all 3 of us are on board for iceberg lettuce, and for Michael
+
+[28:02] Nakkin, from Aber Voracious. He wrote back. He would like to be on one of our shows. Let him know what you think would be a good fit. You cook them on this show if you wanted to. We could have a talk. I don't know if you want to. You could, if that's what you wanted to do. He just was in New York and didn't stop by the Booker and Dex because he went to a Terra, which he gave an amazing review to the, have you been there?
+
+[28:23] With Mark. Just seems like the kind of place you would go. Apparently, amazing new place, platform New York magazine, gave it 4 stars. I haven't been because I haven't been, but he says very good things about... Callers back, by the way. All right, call her. you are on the air. Hey Dave, this is Andy again. Is that better? you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I can hear you. going on? Good, good. So Charlie Trotter, when are they closing down? They're closed in August. I think August 31st or something like that. All right, so you're one of the last people to ever eat there. I think I was. And in fact, the group that I went with, we loved it so much. try to go again on the very last day that they're open. It was just, you know, it was incredible. I mean, being in the kitchen and actually seeing everybody cook and uh, you know, serving us right there. It was just, uh, really an experience of a lifetime and a couple of my dining companions actually got were able to get up and
+
+[29:13] help, help some of the chefs like prepare, prepare some of the dishes near the end. So was it as clean as it is famously purported to be? It was pretty clean. Yeah, we ended up staying there until like 130 AM or something like that and they were scrubbing the heck out of that thing by the time they were done. Yeah I was pretty impressed. With the cleanliness. Charlie's, uh, he's, uh, he's kind of got a coarse mouth, which is pretty fun. He's, it seems like he's having fun in the last few months that he's open. So wait, so you're saying the floor is clean, but his mouth is not. That's exactly right. Yes. Yeah. But that's the important thing, you know. Yeah exactly. Well, he famously said once that you could almost review a restaurant just by looking at its floor in the kitchen. Interesting. You know, I think I've heard that now that you say that, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of one of his better known statements. Yeah. Well, I like it, you know, like you taking clean establishments, and that was one of the cleaner ones. I've, well, I mean, I've never been in a real, you know, rarely been in a real restaurant kitchen before, so this was, uh, but I was, I was
+
+[30:09] impressed nonetheless. Nice. Yeah, so they did kind of this like, uh, this, uh,
+
+[30:13] beat terrain, and I was wondering, what do you think they used? to use anything to bind it together? or how, you know? I imagine it would be cooked at a fairly high temper? Would you cook the beets beforehand and then just put them in a tureen and let them chill and set? what do you think? Was it served hot or cold? Yeah, so they combined it with almost anything then. Do you serve cold? I mean, classically, obviously, you would buy something like a gelatin. If you wanted to stay, um, if you wanted to stay vegetarian, I would use a combination of, um, if you want that gelatin like feel, that awesome mouthfield of gelatin, I would use a mixture of kappa
+
+[30:49] carraginen and locust bean gum, the kappa carraginen by itself is brittle, and the locust being gum when you add it to it, um, softens it. So it's like, JS, so it's like gelatin, but it still can remelt, so you can use it. If you wanted to heat it, I mean, you could use Agar. The problem with Agar is it's not 100% clear, so it's not going to look as shiny. Do you know what I'm saying? Uh, as, as, as kappa plus the special LBG that CP Coco serves will
+
+[31:15] use? Uh, you could also use uh, something called gelan gum. Gelan is not going to be as flexible if you use a clear one. It's going to be a little more brittle, but then you could deep fry it. Cool. Yeah, that, oh, wow. Deep fried. Yeah that would be incredible. Yeah. The problem with Jell-An, if you're going to use Jell-An, is that you have
+
+[31:32] to, um, you have to heat the beats before you pour it on or you're going to get some pre-gelling problem. Do you know what I mean? Uh, Agar is going to be a little simpler to work with, but, uh, Kappa Carragin and LBG, which is, uh, I think Modernist has a, has a version of that, uh, somewhere. That mixture is really good or just straight up gelatin. Gelatin is great as long as your kitchen's not going to be too hot and you're going to serve it cold. Yeah, and I'm not too worried about, you know, keeping it veggie or vegan. So I think gelton would probably be the way to go. But yeah, it was really nice. Real golden beach is gorgeous. Another quick question. I called in last summer about a ham. curing in my attic, and unfortunately, I went up there a couple of weeks ago, and I've got bugs. I hate that. Beatles or mites? What was the 1st one? Beatles? I think they're mites. Well, they're little, they look to be little grubby type things. Um, you know, they leave kind of a sawdust looking, what I assume is some sort of feces, you know, around where they're, where
+
+[32:33] they're shooting. Basically, there was a little bit of a taint in up near the phone. There was a little bit of extra skin removed and a little too much exposure. I don't think I got it salted quite well enough when I 1st you know, when I 1st cured it. And so there's always been a little bit of a taint up there, but until a few weeks ago, you know, no sign of any other type of contamination.
+
+[32:51] So you think there's, yeah, what do I do? Am I am I just screwed? I mean, or do you think there's some way, is there a way you know, cut the rest of it around the bugs or what do you think? Okay, so you're in Chicago, yeah? I am yeah. So you're probably pretty much like New York. I mean, they have other things like skippers down south that cause problems, but in our kind of latitudes. The 2 main enemies of ham are different varieties of boring
+
+[33:16] beetle and mites. So boring beetle, you'll see holes in the meat just above the
+
+[33:24] fat line. Did you see those? Are there holes in the meat? I couldn't really tell, like the place, the butcher job wasn't, wasn't very good. You know, they, they, uh, there, it was clear that the pig was hung from this legs. There's like a little bit of split, you know, in the tendon by the, uh, what do you call it, the, uh, um, Gamble, gamble holes, basically. Uh, so I haven't had the chance to really inspect it that closely to see where it is, but it's not on the
+
+[33:50] face. It's all up by the uh, up by the, the bone. I'm hanging it, uh, you know, hock, hock up, shoot us up. haven't noticed. I mean, well, the good news is, is that the taint can be cut away and the rest of the ham
+
+[34:01] is is okay. And that, uh, you know, I've I've had a lot of beetle damage before on hams. had hanging, but they were always on the face, but for those of you
+
+[34:13] that don't know, we're talking about the face is the portion of meat that the bone projects out of that was attached to the pig.
+
+[34:18] And I usually see beetle damage right at the fat line on the face side, right? Not on, not through the skin because the skin's a lot harder to attack than the face. So the boring beetle damage that I've had has been on the face side. So it's probably not that. If you're not seeing individual bugs, but just kind of dust on the ground, that's probably
+
+[34:39] mites, and those mites, like the dust is actually mites, and not feces, it's actually mites. The good news there, brush off the mites and you're good to go. The bad news, the bad news. Once you have mites in your attic, you have mites in your freaking attic, and like even if you wait for a year and hang another ham, you're going to get mites on that ham. So, yeah. So, like, there are things you can treat your your, uh, attic with that, uh, I forget
+
+[35:06] what, I forget the name of them because I've never, I've never tried to do it. I also now have mites in my house. So when I hang hams, I get mites. It's not going to hurt it. You can brush them off. It's not a problem. I think I did see some actual little grubby larva looking thing, so it's probably not the mite. Oh, but that was probably on the tape section. Oh, yeah, good point. Right, right, right. Maybe it's just, you know, fine or something like that. Right, that could be flies. Any kind of fly, like blow fly or anything like that. you know, things like that. because they'll eat, um, that section, whereas they won't eat the really cured part. I mean, cut cut yourself a good section around that that tainted portion. And to be honest, there's not that much meat up there anyway. You're not losing that much. What you're losing is a couple good soups. That's it. You know what I mean? And the rest of your ham should be fine. Yeah, you can give that up and the rest of your ham should be fine. Yeah, and, you know, frankly, it's been a good experiment, but, you know, for the quality of ham you can get from, you know, Finch Bill and Nuisance and stuff like that.
+
+[35:58] Not that expensive and pretty freaking Incredibles. So this might be my last stab at it, but at least I can salvage this one. Yeah, but you know what? It's rewarding and there is a learning curve to it. Um, you know, you might want to check out uh, Dr. Norman Marriott, uh, formerly, he's
+
+[36:15] Emeritus at, uh, I think a Virginia Tech, has a pretty good PDF available online, uh, with, yeah, with troubleshooting on, uh, on, on ham
+
+[36:25] caring, if you want to give it again. I unfortunately don't have a place that I can hang one. So I haven't, I haven't done, but as soon as I get a house out in the middle of nowhere to, you know, take my kids
+
+[36:35] to when I'm not in New York City, I'll be hanging up some pork, believe it or not, believe me believe it. I think I'm looking at a curing chamber too. Uh, you know, cured meats blog. Jason Molinari, I think he's written in a couple of times. He's got a, you know, some good, good DIY curing chamber tips. So I think that, uh, hopefully that'll help, uh, I'd like to try some other type
+
+[36:54] of uh, salumi and things like that as well. Yeah, it is. It is the age of the DIY. Thank God. an exciting time to be alive. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. Cool. Thanks so much. Thank you. Yep, gotcha. Bye. Jack, can we do one more commercial break? Sure. Call your questions to this. What is it? 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128, cooking and use?
+
+[37:20] But I don't mind stealing brilliant, one miles of
+
+[37:28] drag. But I can't feed on the bowel else when my cups already over me.
+
+[37:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah,
+
+[37:52] yeah, yeah. Yeah. What you don't know is, is that my cousins are from Seattle and we're always doing like the weird Eddie Vedder stuff when we're cooking. By the way, I pre-apologize to everyone for not getting to... going to be able to get to all the questions today, right, Stas? Well, let's do them for Japan. We're going to try and do cooking issues from Japan. Can we do that, Jack? Yeah, let's do it. Cooking issues from Tokyo. All right, prep kitchen. What? Yeah, we're going to be in the in the prep kitchen. Yeah, it's awesome. Okay. Dear Nastasia, Dave, and Jack. Love the show. Appreciate how accessible you make it for us to not in the industry full-time. I've learned a lot and had a chance to use much of what you talk about. Thank you. This is from Alan Freeman, by the way. And he expects us all to be killed by vegan terrorists, but you first, Nastasia. Just saying. Um, I'm curious whether current microwave technology is at all interesting. I have a chance to get a very cheap new microwave with continuous amplitude control rather than traditional pulse width, full-on full-oss cycling, but it wouldn't be worth the hassle of swapping out and disposing of the old
+
+[38:54] one, if there's nothing really new and interesting, I can do with it. I've never really used a microwave for anything other than leftovers and melting chocolate, but perhaps there are fun techniques that you could share. Thanks, Alan. And then a little note to Ben as much fun as playing with old microwave was as a rather reckless young geek. I may be more averse to self-immolation these days. Alan. Okay, true story. Look, having done it several times, please don't chop up your microwave
+
+[39:17] oven. There are dangerous voltages in there. If you defeat the safety in our locks, you can nuke your eyeballs with
+
+[39:23] microwaves, and then they turn white like a cooked egg, never to unwhite. Uh, yeah. So, please don't mess with your, excuse me, please don't mess with your microwaves. That said, I've done it several times. But the trick here, for those of you who don't know what the hell we're talking about. When you put a microwave, a standard microwave, on half power. Have you noticed this, Nastasia? You have a microwave? Have you ever had a microwave? You notice how it goes... And the light dims a little bit? That's because it doesn't actually change the power level. It just turns the magnetron off and on for a specific amount of time. And it actually takes a little bit of time. The magnetron, by the way, is the thing that's generating the microwave. That's what it's called. It's called the magentron. And it takes a while for the magnetron to heat up start generating the, you know, to actually start producing appreciable amounts of microwave. So they time the, uh, the duty cycle, not the duty cycle, the, uh,
+
+[40:19] the, the full cycle, how long that cycle is, meh, meh, to, uh, take advantage of the fact that the magnetron has a little bit of a time lag between when you apply power and when the microwave come out.
+
+[40:29] So 80% power, it's on 80% of the time and then off 20. 100% power, it's on 100% of the time.
+
+[40:37] And the theory with microwaves is that that's okay because you're hitting it with full power and then turning it off and the food gets to cool off and it all averages
+
+[40:45] out. Continuous control is something that allows you
+
+[40:50] to actually change the amount of power that the microwave is putting out on a continuous basis.
+
+[40:57] I've always wanted one to do very controlled, delicate work on defrosting and things like that, but I've never used one. So I can't say whether or not it's actually any better.
+
+[41:07] The one time I tried to build one. I was trying to do microwave dehydration in a vacuum, and so the idea is, is that you use a microwave to boil the inside of, so microwaves penetrate
+
+[41:20] food, and so you're actually boiling the liquids out on the inside of a product. And that is advantageous if you're trying to dry it in the presence of a vacuum to, instead of freeze drying, if you don't have it to do things like dehydrated grapes, without them having shrunk like
+
+[41:35] raisins, because the positive pressure of the water boiling out keeps them in the proper shape as they're going. The issue is, I had a lot of issues, but I wanted to control the power so
+
+[41:45] it didn't overheat, but my temperature control, my, I had a thermocouple in there, and it was arcing like a bastard because as soon as you apply microwaves in a vacuum, a partial
+
+[41:57] vacuum, you get huge plasma balls rolling around and lighting everything on fire on the inside of the
+
+[42:02] microwave. I then was trying to do power control on it of my own kind of accord. It was a complete nightmare, horrible. I don't recommend doing it. That said, I've always been interested in actual continuous controlled microwave, but I don't know. I don't really know. I mean, and all of my microwave tricks are like really crappy things to do to somebody else's microwave at a party at this point, which I can't really, I don't really want to talk about on theater, because there's plenty of websites that'll teach you how to do it, right,
+
+[42:27] Styles? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um... Take another question. Uh, hey, uh, Dave, Nastasia and Jack went to the NRA show recently and scored a deal for a polycience professional circulator package for about 50% off. By the way, good tip. If you're going to trade shows. The last day of the trade show, people don't want to carry that crap home. So what you can do is make a deal with them, preferably early in the trade show to buy their units before they go home. This way, they don't have to take them home and you can get usually dealer price or sometimes even slightly below dealer price at
+
+[43:00] trade shows. Good little tip. I do not have a vacuum sealer, food saver style, nor chamber. I will receive the circulator soon and had a couple of questions. Can you leave proteins in the Cryovac packaging to cook sous vide? Perhaps you just give up the ability to pre-seer season and marinate. Okay, the problem with that, a lot of crime evac bags that are
+
+[43:20] shipped aren't shipped. They're not cooked chill bags. And so you, they're not gonna, they're not gonna melt in the, at the temperatures you're using in a circulator, but they're not necessarily rated for
+
+[43:29] heating, and so I can't guarantee that there's no sort of plastic. I can't guarantee the plastic safety at temperature. That's it. I done it many times. And basically, it's very good for things like sous vide for, or low temperature and sous vide for insurance purposes, but don't do it if you don't trust
+
+[43:50] a bag. Um, what's the problem with air in the bag while cooking a sous vide or low temp? There's 2 problems with air. One is that it can cause an issue where it doesn't heat as quickly. And so in shorter cook things, it can, um, it can lead to spots that aren't cooked as
+
+[44:06] well in very, very long cooked things in the middle of the air, stops the heat penetration. You can get growth of lactobacillus in the place where there was an air pocket, if it doesn't heat quickly
+
+[44:14] enough, and then you can get off flavors. The main problem is, is if there's air in the bag, and then you store it for a long time, there's oxygen in the bag, and you can develop rancidity in the fat, and that's
+
+[44:26] bad, right? So that's bad. But in the short term, it's not a problem at all. And finally, if I use low temp ziploc approach, which you can see on cookingissues.com, I give step-by-step with pictures. What limitations, safety, et cetera, are there with regards to length of time in the bath or temperature use as the bagging is
+
+[44:44] not quite a vacuum. There are no limitations on time. I've done limit. I've only cooked up to 3 days in one, but there's no limitations. I wouldn't do anything that's cooked higher than about 70 degrees C, but that's, in other words, not vegetables. Almost anything else. I would cook in a Ziploc bag and it's a great technique. I do that all the time. Uh, thanks. I love the show. I'm looking forward to checking out Booker and Dax next time in New York City. Nastasia, here it is. Please pick on Dave more on the air, so it does not seem so one-sided. Stop by the bar, then you'll see it. Wow. What, see, what, you picking on me live? Maybe you have to come early. mainly at the bar. I'm mainly at the bar early. Do you know what I mean? We so many other interesting questions that I didn't get a chance to do today. We have one in. We're not going to get any questions this week because of Memorial Day, so... So we can get
+
+[45:31] them. So Colin has a question on pressure cooking marmalades. Marty wants to know about meat analogs. Uh, I, you know, I still didn't get to Rob's question on emulsifying sauce, uh, salts with uh, processed cheese and
+
+[45:43] the uh, studies that I was looking at where they're making ketchup flavor processed cheese and we could talk about our ketchup chocolate that we did back in the day.
+
+[45:49] So many, many interesting things that we didn't get to on the air today. I promise to get to them all. Hopefully live from Tokyo next week, cooking issues.
+
+[46:05] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archives programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage Radio Network in the iTunes
+
+[46:22] Store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center For more information visit internationalculinarycenter.com.
+
+[0:15] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Roberta's Pizzawea. and most wick, Brooklyn. Well, we're back from Tokyo, right? Yeah, you have a good time with it? No, because you're not speaking to the microphones here. You had a good time, man? Yes, did you? Have a fantastic time. Crazy. In fact, the only problem is we have so many questions to get to that I don't know if I'm going to have time to talk about that. You said we have a one o'clock here. Yeah, yeah. Well, some other time, since we have 2 weeks, we were gone for 2 weeks. It turned out is impossible for Nastasia and I to schedule doing the cooking issue show with our work schedule over there in the Japan because we were working bar, basically, until right before the
+
+[0:52] show, and so we couldn't really prep out for it, right? Anyway, call on your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. All right, so let's wait, is that right? Yeah. I didn't even I didn't even listen to it. I just, like, you just turn on a speech and it just, like, sprays out of your face and you don't have no idea. Okay. Well, actually, since we don't have time to talk to Tokyo, they should go to the blog. Are we started the blog again? right? I got the 1st post I did was an apology for not putting me post-up. And the 2nd was when Nastas and I went to Jiro's sushi, along with Mark Ladner. A lot of money. Yeah, Jiro loves money. Jir dreams of the money. My favorite fire was, if the old man or the old man can watch me eat, my melon, I think is what he said. Well, you know, look, for those who don't know, this is a Jiro Dreams of Sushi is the, uh, is
+
+[1:41] the movie that's out now, and it's this 86-year-old dude. He's 82 years old. He got 3 Michelin stars. Basically, all he does, he wakes up very early, goes to Sakiji
+
+[1:51] market, you know, fish market in Tokyo, gets the fish, shows up and his, you know, must be 60s son, right? who must be, he's dreaming of his dad dying. So he could take over the family business. So these guys, along with like a couple other apprentices, are sitting there and this 86 year old dude is pumping out the sushi every day. But when you show up, it's like 300, $350 a
+
+[2:15] pop, and it's one course every minute for about 19 minutes, and then they move you to another seat, and you eat your melon. And Nastasia and Mark were like, like, all like bent out of shape like pretzels, worried about like hurrying out. He's like, they want us to leave. They want to do. I could give a rats. whether they want me to leave or not. You know, you know what I mean? It's like, if, look, if you invite me into your place and I'm spending $350, it's like, you know, you don't have a right to kick me out
+
+[2:38] in like, you know, within 30 minutes. You know. understand you. Yeah, I mean, he's not a hooker. not like you're done, you're out. You know what I mean? The melon the melon is not that I would, you know, know about that. No, no, no. imagine, yeah, anyway, whatever. But the quality of sushi was amazing. Go see the write-up on cookingissues.com versus this, which is cooking issues, the radio show. Yeah. Okay. Daniel Seattle writes. Hey, Nastasia and Dave. I love the show and music teacher and food nerds who loves listening to a restaurant shop talk. My wife and I throw big dinner parties for 12 to 20 people in our small apartment. What are the current best practices for making coffee for a whole bunch of people? Usually our guests have at least one small cup each and usually more, so I shoot for at least 6 to 8 ounces per person. Normally you do French press or a pourover or an arrow press, but those don't scale up well, even if we do a few batches and transfer them to thermal
+
+[3:31] caross. What do you think, Daniel, from Seattle? Well, if you're willing to do a pourover technique, I think one thing you could do is switch to a much larger format when you're doing your
+
+[3:41] pullover. So with any of these things, you're into a couple problems, like fresh coffee is always better than coffee that's not fresh.
+
+[3:50] Duh. But there's a couple of reasons. One, is that the temperature of the coffee goes down, like that's the obvious one. And two, um, the aroma of the coffee disperses and actually the stuff in the coffee itself, the flavors of the coffee, uh, tend to physically change with time after their root. Now, um, So some of that can be mitigated by a proper carafe handling. So if you want to use one of your small scale methods and put it in a craft and have good results. The 1st trick is to add a boatload of boiling water to your carafe. first. Let it sit for a couple of minutes, cover, dump it out, add another layer of boiling water,
+
+[4:26] you know, another thing of boiling water to it. Now, leave that boiling water in and that your carafe is very, very hot. Otherwise, even though your craft is thermally insulated. You're wasting a lot of the heat energy of the coffee, just warming up the glass walls
+
+[4:40] or the craft before you add any stuff to it. Makes sense, right? Right. Same is true when you're adding liquid nitrogen to a craft. You end up losing a lot of the initial batch of liquid nitrogen that you add because you need to chill down the craft to a low temperature. So the 1st thing I would suggest is preheating your craft. Okay. Now, the 2nd choice you have is to scale up your mode of production. The problem with most scale ups is that you radically change the actual parameters of
+
+[5:06] your of your brewing. By that, I mean, either the brew time or the brew water temperature. And either one of those things can really drastically influence the
+
+[5:17] flavor, result in your coffee. So it's very hard to do in a French press unless you were to custom create some sort of a French press operation in a big
+
+[5:25] pot. But I've noticed that whenever you're doing things in a large scale, it can still be difficult because the physical time to press something down is going to be different.
+
+[5:33] The physical time to drain something off in a large situation is going to be different. So here's what I recommend. If you're willing to do pourover technique. Go online and purchase the large, large coffee filters that are meant to go with
+
+[5:46] industrial, for industrial size, like bunomatic coffee machines that make 20 cups at a time. They're much, much larger, a lot more surface area than a standard one. Put it into a colander. Put your grounds into that with a bed depth that's roughly similar to what you would have in a normal pour over coffee situation. Put that colander over a larger pot that you can put into a Bain Marie of hot water and then heat your water for the coffee and pour it all over at once so that your brew time is roughly similar to what your normal pour over drip time would be.
+
+[6:18] And that should create and then pour it directly into a thermal craft and serve out. And that's probably as close as I think I can get you just off the top of my head having never done it myself. What do you think, does? Good. Good. All right. My iPad, my stuff is so long winded that my iPad turns off in between and I have to... Is the way I can keep it on? That mustache, you want that for next week? Okay. Hey, which reminds me. I just want to tell listeners that we now have iPhone and iPad compatibility for the live
+
+[6:47] stream so you guys can tune in live on the go. Oh, hell. Hell yeah. All right. Jonas from Switzerland writes in about meat. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. I'm a chef who's been working with the sous vide technique for some time. In 2011. We tasted various foods and sous vide water baths and published the results we liked in an iPhone app called Sous vide Degree Celsius. How the hell do you search for the degree symbol? Crazy. I don't know how you do that. Yeah, I don't know. have no idea. Anyway, recently, I've been asked to present low temperature cooking and the science behind it at culinary schools. One of the most stunning examples when presenting it. Presenting the CV method is, of course, low temperature cooking for long periods of time, as in spare
+
+[7:22] ribs or beef shins, veal neck, et cetera. One question has often come up. I don't know how to answer, is up to what temperature or for how long do collagenase enzymes remain active when cooking sous vide? Okay, and then he brings up 2 articles. One is studying the effects of heat on meat proteins, by Thornberg 2005, which says that temperatures between 53 and 63 degrees. The collagen denatriation occurs, followed by college and fiber shrinkage. And then on 497, it quotes an article from 1970 that shows that collagenase, which would be an enzyme, by the way,
+
+[7:55] ace's enzyme always, and collagenase would be an enzyme that breaks down collagen, could remain active in the meat at cooking temperatures below 60 degrees, whereas faster
+
+[8:03] heating up to 70 or 80 Celsius, they were inactivated. But then, uh, to contradistinct to that. It says in the abstract 4 effect of prolonged heat treatment from 48 to 63 on toughness and cooking loss of pork, which is a recent article, the residual activity of Cat Hespin, which is actually a different enzyme, by the way, in low temperature,
+
+[8:24] long time, treated pork was mainly affected by temperature, showing the highest activity between 58 and 63 degrees
+
+[8:29] Celsius. So what's up with that? How can we go for that? How can we go and how long does it have an effect? Is it 60 degrees, 63 degrees? Can you help me sussing this crap out? Best witches from Switzerland, Jonas. Okay, 1st of all, for those of you that couldn't follow a damn word I was just saying, the argument here, the question is, in low temperature cooking is the majority, like there are enzymes that are still working in low temperature
+
+[8:52] cooking and those enzymes break down various proteins in the meat, okay?
+
+[8:58] And the 2 main protein fractions, we're looking to break down our connective tissue fractions, which is mainly collagen, and muscle
+
+[9:06] protein, portions, like act and myasin, the actual contraction portions of muscles. Now, Calagenase is an enzyme that is present, it causes awesome stuff that Nastasia likes to look up on the internet like gas gangrene. It's the thought of like a gangrenous lesion and is sending nastasia into queasy results now. Now, look, uh, yes, these enzymes keep working, and enzymes, especially protein breakdown enzymes have a huge impact on the texture of fish that's cooked low temperature, and it's why fish can go pasty and
+
+[9:38] mushy. And for a long time, it's been theorized that these enzymes are also a lot of what's going on in tenderizing low temperature cooked meat. I just don't believe it. I just don't think so. I think it has some effect, right? But I think it's not the majority of effect. Furthermore, there's 2 main categories of enzymes you're looking at here. Collagenate enzymes, like I say, breakdown collagen, but in the recent literature, they're very, very, they're not very often mentioned at all.
+
+[10:04] The others are different. Their cat hesbans, which break down the um, this break down the muscle proteins, and those are in, uh, they're contained with, normally in intact
+
+[10:16] muscle, inside the lysosomes, can be released on cooking. And there's recent studies on that, that they are released and they maintain some activity. And so they can, they can probably act towards muscle protein,
+
+[10:27] you know, tenderness, but it's probably not the majority of the
+
+[10:31] effect. The majority of the effect in low temperature cooking is probably just a thermal degradation of collagen over long periods of time
+
+[10:38] at elevated temperatures. That is my feeling. Also, these articles are, you know, there are a lot of them that are done are review
+
+[10:46] articles, and so it's like you're comparing apples and oranges when you're comparing temperatures because they're denaturing proteins in different environments, you know, purified or not
+
+[10:54] purified, in different muscles, and the presence are different fat. They're measuring different temperatures, i.e. the temperature they're cooking too versus internal temperatures. And so it's really impossible. You're comparing apples and oranges. And I read them and, um, they didn't make uh, too much, uh, I wasn't putting too much of a weight in it. Does that make sense, Sustache? Uh, okay, but when I was researching this stuff, I did look up a new, there's a new enzyme out, um, that is called uh, collagenalytic protease
+
+[11:23] MCP 01 that comes from a deep sea bacteria that can break down proteins at low
+
+[11:28] temperatures like in the fridge. So that might be something new to look at because that's a very recent, uh, that's a recent thing. That's, you know, 2012, I think. The other thing is, is that the muscles that these guys choose to do their tests on, and this is
+
+[11:42] a problem with all meat, all meat texture things. They always choose muscles that freak and suck. Like the 2 articles that you put in. They use a lot of them, a semi tendinosis muscle, which is like eye of round. It sucks. It's a crappy muscle. And the reason they choose that crappy muscle is because it doesn't have a lot of variation in the
+
+[12:02] muscle. So it's easy to run tests on, but it's not an accurate representation of what's
+
+[12:06] going to happen when you're actually cooking meat that you would rather eat. Okay? Now, another thing. Oh, but that collagenate enzyme thing that you cited. And it was cited a couple times, it was done in 1970. It's really old research. And then I read some more recent research that said, you know, well, I don't know that that's still, you know, that's
+
+[12:25] not, I think it's really a current research. But I found this awesome website that you should all go to right now. www.beefresearch.org, beefresearch.org. beefresearch.org and look for a ranking of beef muscles for tenderness. It's from the University of Nebraska. And it's an awesome PDF, basically, where they tell you in very fine detail. What the problems are with running studies on tenderness and what tenderness means, and the difference in tenderness when it's measured by a machine versus when it's measured by a person, and it ranks the different muscles, which is awesome.
+
+[12:59] And then they have a supplementary website, which is frigging fantastic, called bovine.unl.edu. Now, if you go to that PDF, I told you, they mistakenly put a WWW in front of bovine.unl, and then you can't get to the page. Forget the WWW. No www, does bovine.unl.edu. And they have a three-dimensional cow with the muscles on it, and the meat and the skeleton, and you can click
+
+[13:27] any one and get any one particular muscle and spin it around in 3D and like go in and
+
+[13:31] out, and they have videos of a butcher breaking down every single cut that they have in that thing.
+
+[13:38] So it's a fantastic resource. I can't believe I haven't seen it until now. I hope that all of anyone who's listening here is Well, finish listening to us. And then after we're done talking, go and check check that out. And 1st of all, in Nebraska, they know their meat. Am I right? Nebraska meat? I mean, come on, Nebraska. Possibilities? Endless. That's the state model. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Angela Kabatsar, our Nebraska intern of all times, all times. Okay. Question 3 from Paul. About Invertes from Enzyme Heavy Show. Enzyme Heavy Show. And remember, Ace means enzyme, peoples, pebbles. All right. Hello, Nastasia and Dave, what, no jack? no Jack. Anyway, um, I would like to ask about Invertes. I only really know of it being used in those terrible cherry cordial bonbons, but I'd like to know if it could be used in interesting ways in other
+
+[14:27] applications, or if there's a similar product that can similarly break down a lesser non-sweet sugar to be used in a more savory application. PS, huge fan. Thank you. Great info that I'll be using one day after I finish my upcoming training with Daniel Ballud. Well, good job working with Daniel Ballud, badass, you know, one of those, you know, major, major badasses, Daniel Blue. Okay. Uh, from Paul. Okay. Here's the thing. Invert taste for all of you that don't know what's going on. Invertase is an enzyme that breaks down sucrose, which is a disaccharide, right? It's got a fructose and a glucose, right? And basically, the invertase breaks that down into glucose and fructose. Now, invert taste, invert sugar, which you can buy as
+
+[15:10] trimoline or things like that, are very useful in confectionery because it can minimize or prevent crystallization or
+
+[15:17] minimize crystal size, increase the moisture holding capability of a product. So it's good. good stuff. It's useful. Now, the way this is used in bonbons, the terrible cherry bonbons that you're that, you know, you refer to, is you make a fondant. Now, fondants are crystallize, they look like solids, but what they really are is a network of sugar crystals with a sugar syrup in between those crystals,
+
+[15:42] right? And when you add the invert taste to that and then coat that fondant in chocolate, let's say, what happens over time is the
+
+[15:51] sugar, the sugar is broken down into invertes, it loses its crystal structure and reverts to a
+
+[15:57] semi-liquid syrup, right? So what you're using is the fact that is that you have this syrup is being bound with sucrose crystals. You break down the sucrose and then you have this liquidy center. Right? Now, the invert taste is used for other things. And so I looked up that, I looked up the website for those guys, and it says it's used. You can make invert with it, which is better than acid, you know, acid catalyzed inversion, which is what you normally do when you're making cooking sugar because it's more controlled,
+
+[16:24] et cetera, et cetera. Sugar. If you make, if you invert sugar that way, it's less apt to turn brown when cooking as opposed to acid catalyzed inversion, it's also used in fruit juices and jams, to increase
+
+[16:36] sweetness, an increased resistance to crystallization, things like that. Okay. But you can't really, I think it really only works on glucose and sucrose. I't know of any other enzymes that would do that. If you wanted a slowly liquefying center. What I would recommend is using an enzyme that breaks down pectin or breaks down any hydrocolloid at a relatively slow rate. So I would get a pectin that sets relatively quickly. Stir in some SPL to it, set it, and you could get it cold fast so the pectinase doesn't break it down too quickly. Then you could enrobe that pectin thing in something, and then the pectin would dissolve over time. You get a liquid or something like that where you broke down a hydrocoloid structure instead of a sugar structure. Does that make sense, though? You could also probably do that with something that breaks down as starch, the same way that undercooked, like, undercooked, like, custard things can liquefy over
+
+[17:27] time if the starch gets broken down. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Take it, take it, take it or dump. Right? Okay. Anyway, let's take our 1st commercial break and come back. Call you questions two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 the cooking issue. If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom. That's why the French culinary institute has evolved into the International Culinary Center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills, you come to understand and to feel the whole culinary
+
+[18:07] world. You have to network. You have to observe the true meaning of world-class performance. You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the international culinary centers campuses in New York, California, and Italy. We will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at
+
+[18:25] a very high speed. The international culinary center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking, to Italian, wine, management, culinary technology, and food writing.
+
+[18:36] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. Jack, was that you? That was me. Give me some whole culinary world again. Give me some. Oh, man. My radio voice. I love it. I love that. That's good business. Guys, real quick, before you go on, So we were at Bonnaroo covering the event this weekend and the gastropod truck dude said hello. Oh, Jeremiah Bullfrogs? Yeah, I go up to him. I'm like, hey, can we interview your heritage radio? he's like, oh my god, you're the voice. It's cooking issues. the producer. Nice. Yeah. listens every week. Really? we on the air right now? Yeah, we're on the air right now. Yeah this is how we do. We talk on the air. how the radio works. Yeah, we're a big fan of the Jeremiah Bullfraud. We did an event with him. maybe a year ago, almost exactly a year ago, in Miami, and I love, like,
+
+[19:25] like, the crew that comes to frequent the, his gastro gastropod truck. Turns out to be like a really great crew of customers. We really had a great time at their event. I like loved the crowd in Miami. I thought they were really really fun. anyway. So you interviewed him? What did you use it for? We did a piece on Bonnaroo that will be up on the website today. Is Bonaroo the thing with the people, the young people who they meet each other and the ladies like, I'm going to rock your
+
+[19:49] world? No, it's the guys you threw Googa Mooga. the big music festival in Tennessee. We have a call coming in, though, so... What's the one I'm talking about? Batteroo? The one where people get high? No, the one on the on the on the, like the one sheets on, on the street and it's like, I like to, I like to mess with chickens. Yeah, no, that's bad, dude. Bader room? Hey, caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hi, I'm Chris from the UK. Hey, how you doing? Good, thanks. So? Yeah, doing all right. All right. Good. I have a question on egg-free custard. e-free meringues, as in Il flaton. How would you best go around it? Well, uh, uh, okay, so for a meringue like texture, you're
+
+[20:35] going to want to use, uh, you basically, you just need something that's going to be a whipping agent, it's going to hold, right? So you can use a protein that acts in a similar way to egg whites. And so for that, I would use something like VersaWhip, and you can get either one that's soy-based or one that's casing-based. I mean, way-based rather, not casing, way-based. So, uh, and, you know, those ones, they, they whip, when you're getting one of those things, the issue is, is that they sometimes take a long time to whip
+
+[21:03] up and they don't cook off the same way. So they're not going to hold their structure when they're done, the way that a meringue will, but
+
+[21:11] for like a very quick serve something. Like if you just want that texture, it'll work. On a custard or on a meringue that's gonna hold. I mean, the issue is if you want to go egg free, presumably is to go vegan. So I can't recommend something like a gelatin or some other set. You could. It's not the vegan, it's a problem. egg allergy. Ah, okay. Well, I mean, you could then set, if you were going to whip something with a versa whip, you can then set it with gelatin so that it holds after it chills
+
+[21:40] down, and then you could have something that holds up over time. Or you could use an alternative, if you did want to go vegan, you could use an alternative hydrocolloid that would hold the meringue over time. And then what you're just doing is using the versa whip as a whipping aid, you know, as a, you know, foaming agent. So then you would have a Miranda holdover time. If you wanted to do something that was going to be heat stable. Like if you were going to cook off a meringue in an oven, then you'd have to probably go a little more hardcore because you'd need a hydrocolloid that could withstand heat.
+
+[22:13] And so for then you might be able to move to something like an Agar, but you'd have to make sure that it whips up before it cools
+
+[22:20] down or if you want, or if you want really heat stable because Agar will melt. You'd have to go with a gelan, but you'd have a real problem. I've tried doing it, whipping up gelands, um, whipping up geland gels, uh, you know, so that they're stable before they set. Another alternative, the whipping to setting a gel in a foam is to use a slow setting, sodium
+
+[22:41] algenate, foam. I don't like to do it. I've done it. The problem is, is that I don't think sodium amalgenate tastes very good, right? So what you would do is you would use a whipping agent and sodium algenate, and then you'd whip it into a foam, and then you'd add a little calcium at the last
+
+[22:55] 2nd and then it would, you know, it would set into a foamed gel.
+
+[22:59] You know what I mean? And that one, I've done it. You have to be careful to not be able to taste the alginate, right? Um, the other, for the custard, um, I'd have to do,
+
+[23:13] uh, I'd have to do some research. I've never thought of, of egg list custards. I mean, the way that I would you know, off the top of my head, right? You can, without egg, set things into custard like textures, using something like iota
+
+[23:26] carraginen, especially in the presence of milk, very small amounts of iota
+
+[23:30] carraginen will produce kind of a custardy texture. The problem is iota is a little elastic. So you want to have it just set. And so you would use iota and maybe a little bit of kappa carragain in to make it into have a little more of a break to it as opposed to iota, which is going to be a little more rubbery.
+
+[23:46] But I've had, you know, Wiley's done both pectin-based sets and Iota slash kappa carragin and mixed-based sets of custards that I thought were
+
+[23:55] very, very good, you know, almost like a panna cotta texture. You know what I'm saying? Uh, and yeah, and those can be totally achieved with uh, various uh, hydrocolors. But I would stick with something kind of simple, like carragina is relatively simple to work with, and mixtures of, the great thing about iota is also that it'll reset after it breaks a little bit, but a mixture of mainly iota at a very low
+
+[24:20] concentration and um, and a little bit of kappa will give you a nice uh, custardy uh, texture. You know, you'd have to adjust the firmness a little bit. You know what I mean? But you could get there. And those are all available, I assume, from the modernist pantry folk. I don't know. And then if you needed some thickening of it, right? If it didn't feel thick enough with whatever ingredients you're adding, I would thicken it with a, I wouldn't try to thicken it with the, in order to
+
+[24:44] increase the creaminess of it with the iota in the kappa, then you would move to more of a thickening agent, something like an LBG, locust bean, or just a
+
+[24:54] traditional, something make it thicker, like add more of something that's unctuous to it. You know, you don't need to go to hydrocholid route on that. But that's the way I'd approach it. Okay, thank you. All right? let us know how works. Thank you. All right, thanks a lot. All right. So, uh, Paul K wrote in on meat cooking whole muscles. Hi, Dave. I was at an event a while ago where I saw a steak. I think an entra coat being prepared on a barbecue by which I think he means grill. I think he means grill, as far as our turns. Anyway, in a way I'd never seen before. Rather than cutting the steaks and then cooking them, an entire cylinder of beef was barbecued, rested
+
+[25:27] out, and only then cut. It seems it was incredibly efficient, as the result was very beautiful. Every steak had a perfect gradient from crusty on the lateral edge to a disc that was essentially raw in the center. Normally, you only see the sort of gradient once you cut into the steak. One, is this technique well known, and if so does have a name, two, what cuts of beef would you recommend for these techniques? And three, do you have any tips on how to make this work well? When cooking 4 kilograms of beef at a time? I can imagine that cock ups can be expensive. Cockups, that's a good way to say mess ups. I like that because it's kind of almost dirty, but not. Uh, I guess it'll be critical to start with beef at room temperature. Thanks, Paul. Okay. Now, when you're, when you're dealing with it means, I mean, essentially what they're doing is roasting the meat on a grill. Right? It's basically roast meat. Think about like prime rib. Prime rib is delicious that way. So basically, what you're not basically, what you're doing here is using the grill to instead roast something. And I think the most, um, similar idea would be like a rotisserie where you pull off something that's rare.
+
+[26:26] You know, I mean, before it's cooked all the way through, because then it would just be done manually. I would assume that these people who are using the grill were constantly turning the
+
+[26:32] meat, and it's fundamentally different from a long, when most people say
+
+[26:36] barbecue. What they're referring to is long, long, long-term cooking, where the
+
+[26:41] meats cook totally all the way through, right on a grill versus just straight grilling, where the meat can be pulled off at any doneness, including
+
+[26:49] rare, in the middle, and you're just getting a nice crust on the outside. When you're doing it, you could use something that would one would normally barbecue with, right, i.e. a lower temperature, but just do it less long, in which case you're treating it more like a
+
+[27:03] roast. But you'd need to get the temperature high enough to get a crusty finish on the outside. Does that make sense, Nastasia? But I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So right back in, tell me more about it, kind of exactly kind of what's going on and where it falls in the continuing between grilling and barbecuing or whether or not I have the right idea about what
+
+[27:20] you're what you're referring to. Because I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, so I don't want to, you know, go the wrong way, right, Stuff? Yes. She's like, I don't really care. whatever. Uh, okay. Aaron Lawton writes in from Portland, Maine, on chili oil and botulism, all-inclusive greetings. I like that. doesn't want to, you know, doesn't want to make any statements on who may or may not be
+
+[27:39] here. Just the all inclusive greetings. Everyone but Jacket says, actually. Anyway, it doesn't release. I listen to your show every week via iTunes and appreciate the distraction. It serves. distraction. It's good. I have long stood over questions about chili oil. My wife underwent a heart transplant a couple of years ago, and food safety is a pre-eminent concern in our cooking. Hey, my mom runs the heart transplant program, pediatric heart transplant program at Columbia Presbyterian. My mom, you know, hardcore badass. She's the cardiologist there. So, uh, you know, uh, heart transplant uh, patient's close to my close to my, Well, I wasn't even thinking about that. Just dumb. Anyway, you know, anyway, I think it's something I think about. Okay, we love making spicy Sichuan food, which recently frequently calls for chili oil. I would like to make the oil myself due to my cheapness, something we also share. Cheapness, cheapness. All of us here, really cheap bastards, right, Stas? Yeah, really cheap, really cheap. She'll walk to the airport rather than take a car, even if I'm paying for it. However, I have it overcome with fears of botulism. We are both in our 20s and have years of cooking eating ahead of us. Can you allay my fears of contamination and provide advice on botulum free chili oils. The chili oil I tried came from Land of Plenty by Fuchsia Dunlap. By the way, Fuchsia Dunlap, good friend Harold McGee was showing around China, apparently, Fuchsia Dunlap, badass. That's what I hear. Although I don't own her book, which only used heated peanut oil and dried pepper flakes with optional ginger.
+
+[29:05] Barbara Trop also has a recipe which adds orange zest and garlic, Chinese black beans and sesame oil. Okay, so look, the danger here is with the garlic. The problem with botulism in oil is this. If you add something like a fresh herb or garlic, and garlic grows in the ground and frequently has botulism contamination in it. When you're cooking, even if you cook the garlic off in the oil, enough water remains in the garlic to allow botulism to grow in it,
+
+[29:34] right? And when you have botulism in oil, there's no off taste, there's no nothing. So what happens is even if you heat the garlic, um, you let it cool, you store it not in the fridge, and the botulism spores because you've killed all the vegetative bacteria, the bacteria that are actively operating. The spores re-germinate and create botulism toxin, which then it very bad. Very bad, bad. So how do you get around this? If you don't use the garlic, you're fine, right? Also, if you remove the garlic from the oil, and there's only completely dried items in the oil when you're done, like dried pepper flakes, as long as you haven't reconstituted them with water,
+
+[30:13] then you should be okay. But if it makes you nervous, store in the fridge, every, uh, you know, store in the fridge, and if it gets more than a couple weeks old, you can reheat the oil to 80 degrees Celsius for 10 to 15
+
+[30:27] minutes, or 20 minutes for meat product, and botulism toxin is heat labile, i.e. it's destroyed by heat.
+
+[30:36] So if you heat the oil enough times, right, or high enough, you can actually destroy the botulism toxin that is already present. So the rules are store in the fridge. If you store for a long time. If you store for a long time, you can reheat. If you if it went in down, throw it out. Also, if you use only dry products, you're in a much better position. And thirdly, if you add some acid to the ingredients that you're
+
+[31:04] cooking that have water in, then the acid, citric acid, if you don't use escorbic because escorbic will get destroyed by the heat as well, use citric acid. If it's acidic enough, the product won't support the growth of botulism. So low water, uh, low, uh, you know, high heats, all these things will help protect. Does that make sense stuff? Yes. Okay. All right. Color, you are on the air. Hi guys, Ben from Minnesota here. How you doing? Thanks for taking that call. Question about bagels and pretzels and the lie solution that I might be dipping them in. Okay. Um, I know you had kind of a nasty experience with lie and want to avoid that myself. I would avoid it. I would avoid that experience. Yeah. I was reading a paper. It looks like a lab experience experiment. Assignment, possibly from Ohio State pretzel study. If you look that up, you might find it on the net. Uh, and, and they're using a 2% NAOH, which I assume is just, is that 100% household
+
+[32:08] live, if I buy that at the worst store? Is that what I'm using? Okay, all right, we'll get it. We'll get into the hardware store. I mean, look, if you go to the hardware store, 99% of the stuff that you buy, unless you're buying something that's packaged as
+
+[32:24] lie. package says 100% household lie. There's no other ingredients listed, but I'm, you know, I'm wondering if there's a, you know, food
+
+[32:34] grade lie that's made and where I would even get that. There is a food grade lie that's made. You can get it at professional baker supplies. Okay, now that being said, I have used the hardware store stuff. But I can't recommend it because I believe it's possible for it to have heavy metal contamination and stuff like that. So I don't recommend using it. I recommend getting the food grade stuff from the, um, uh, you know, from a professional baker supply, really don't use, um, like some people have asked me, can I just go use drain cleaner? No. 1st of all, there's like all kinds of weird stuff added to drain cleaner. Um, just, you know, stay away from it. Like aluminum flakes and all sorts of nasty, weird stuff. So, you know, look, if you want to run a couple of experiments with lie, then, you know, if you get the 100%
+
+[33:25] lie. I wouldn't you, I I can't recommend that you use it. I would recommend you get the food grade stuff, but as an experiment to see what happens. It works. You know, do you have kids in the house? I do. That's why it's, I'm high in the garage, tied up real tight, you know? Yeah, you know, uh, when I, uh, you know, for those of you, I don't know, I was doing a lot of experiments with, um,
+
+[33:47] lie and uh, different bases, especially in things like pretzels, but also for
+
+[33:52] nixtamalization and for the hardening of uh, a lot of experiences. Right, well, that was another route I could go. I've got some Mexican markets around. Is that something that would be sold there and as what, you know? Well, they have cal- they have calcium. Yeah, they have Cal, which is, you know, um, which is calcium hydroxide, which is not the, it's not the same and it has a different taste. Uh, you could use anything basic is gonna, you know, or you could go the route that uh, McGee does where he cooks baking soda uh, to convert it to, you know, the more basic uh, form um, and and then use that. Lie is great for it. I mean, I have to say, lie works great. And for those of you that, you know, if you have a bagel, actually, you can just boil. It doesn't need the extra browning. It'll taste more like a pretzel if you add the lye. So most, I mean, some some bagel recipes I've seen, have some baking soda in the boiling water and some don't. But, you know, unless you need the extra browning and that little taste that you get from the basicity,
+
+[34:50] then, you know, you don't need it. But the main yeah, but the main flavor that you're getting in a pretzel from the boilout. 1st of all, you get that dark brown pretzel note because when you increase the alkalinity of the
+
+[35:04] surface, you increase the rate at which the Mayard reactions happen. You get that characteristic brown pretzel color. But also the characteristic flavor of a pretzel is having to do with that basic, that basic outside that, so when you crunch into a pretzel, if you, in your mind,
+
+[35:20] think, uh, kind of, I don't want to hesitate to even say this because it makes it sound bad, but soapiness. You know what I mean? but it's that flavor of basicness that
+
+[35:30] is what makes a pretzel great. And so that in the addition, in addition to never adding fat to, people who add, you know, if you add fat to your pretzel, I have a problem with you in your
+
+[35:42] pretzels. You know what mean? So like, for instance, roll gold. Yeah, to the Deutsch, I mean, it's abomination. It turns into a cracker. It's horrible. You know what I mean? It really makes me angry. And I, if you hand me a pretzel, uh, and certain manufacturers who make, so my 1st rule is pretzels are twisted. They have to be twisted. If it's not twisted, it's not a pretzel, I call them pretzeloids, or like, you know, non-pretzel, but pretzel style things, right? But they're not freaking pretzels because for me, one of the great joys of pretzels is the textural difference between the different parts that bake differently
+
+[36:13] because of the shape and break apart in your mouth differently because of the shape, all right? Boom. that's it. That said. pretzel is pretzel shaped. Secondly, and I'm talking mainly about hard pretzels now. I't have that much experience with soft pretzels. I'm talking hard pretzels. Hard pretzels. If you add any oil to the recipe at all in
+
+[36:32] the in the dough, it takes on a cracker texture, it's not a pretzel anymore. It's like a crack, it's like a cracker sole or something. It's not right, you know, Bachman, the company, they make a pretzel that you, it looks like a real hard pretzel, but is, in fact, got a crackery texture because they, you know, they, I guess they took a hint from rolled gold, you know, or something like
+
+[36:52] that, who adds an abomination, like amount of oil to their thing. Best pretzel that I've ever had in my whole life is Martin's Brothers pretzels, by far the best pretzels that you can get them over the mail order. made by Mennonites. They literally sit around singing hymns all day and making pretzels, but they're, I mean,
+
+[37:08] not, but, but, you know, probably because of the fact that they, it's a religious meditation thing for them. They make fantastic pretzels. You ever had those things? I have not. No, I was kind of I was thinking of making are more like the, you know, like the ballpark, big soft... Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah, a large big chunk of salt in the top, you know. Yeah, those I mean, those are, you know, those are those are a valid product. I'm not saying anything against a good soft pretzel. Love a good soft pretz, especially with mustard. I gotta have mustard on mine. No mustard, no soft pretzel for me. No, that's good too. I agree. Yeah. So yeah, so for that, also, remember, when you're going to the baking supply, you can also get the pretzel salt, which is very nice because
+
+[37:45] it's... Yeah, because you can't get that at the regular store. No, but the same place that's going to have the lie will probably also have the pretzel salt. Okay. All right. Check it out. thanks One quick one about blending mixed drinks. I was, I'm not a cocktail guy at all, but I was making margaritas the other night. They've winded up just fine. Then I made a crystal light version for my kids with no alcohol, obviously, and it turned into like a slush ball in water. Is the alcohol doing something to keep the ice and the water together that you can't get
+
+[38:15] without or that didn't find it wrong. Hmm. I don't, uh, I don't know. Um, I mean, alcohol is gonna melt the, uh, the ice in a different way and it's gonna make it blend kind of, uh, faster. But I mean, obviously, you know, people make uh, people make slushies all the time. They're non-alcoholic in the 7-Eleven. Yeah. Movies work fine. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, maybe a fluke. I don't know, maybe, I don't know. I doubt there's anything in the crystal. Crystal Light actually has very little body and maybe that's the problem. Maybe if it had more sugar in it. You might have more problem with a sugar-free because you're not modifying the, uh, maybe that's it. Maybe try it with something that's got a... I just had some. I could try it just with the regular lime juice and sugar up this time without. Yeah, it could be it could be the fact that the crystal light has no sugar in it. And it could be that the crystalite has something in it to mimic sugar. Sometimes in things that contain, whatever crystal it contains now, it used to be aspartame, because there's no bodying effect from aspartame, and it's used in such small
+
+[39:21] quantities, they often to sodas would add bodying agents to add back some of the feeling like there had been sugar
+
+[39:27] there. And I don't know maybe that has something to do with it too. don't know. Yeah, but give it a shot with real honesty got sugar. All right, cool. All right, thank you. Okay, let's take one more quickie, commercial break, come back, and finish out cooking issues.
+
+[40:16] In case you're wondering what's up with the weird meditation music. It's called Alone in Kyoto by Air. Ah, nice. Well, we're done with all that music. Thank God I was not alone in Kyoto. I was hanging with my family, had a fantastic time, checking out all the temples. I highly recommend them. Okay, Tom Fisher writes in. Howdy, Dave, Nastasia, Nastasia. An idiot, Nastasia, and Jack. Oh, finally. What? said hi to me. Yeah. Yeah. First call, I think. Yeah. ISI about the ISI, which is the EC or ISI, the whipped cream makers. This is the one? Yeah, okay. I'm looking at ISI whippers and just grabbed a gourmet whip on eBay, but the head is filthy and needs new seals,
+
+[41:01] et cetera. It looks like the gourmet whip and the thermal whip share the same head, while the cream whip property has a different head. Is there any real difference among the models insofar is cooking applications are concerned. Thanks for keeping it awesome, Tom Fisher. Okay, listen, a little secret. I have a bunch of different models, all different types, and all the heads are completely interchangeable. They look different, but they all fit. They all have the same exact screw thread from the head onto
+
+[41:22] the, what do you call it? Canister. Yeah. So they all work. And they all have the same exact screw thread, uh, with one exception, and it's not one of the ones you mentioned, of screwing
+
+[41:35] uh, the cartridge, the thing that screws the cartridge in to make it go. They're all the freaking same. Now, what can be different is the screw-ons, I think, for the, for the, whatever the tip is called. I think those might be different, but as far as interchanging canisters, they're all same, all same, right? Same. And I don't know if there's any real difference. I mean, the thermal whip, obviously, is different because it keeps things warm or hot because it's a cold,
+
+[41:57] cold, rather, because it's insulated, but other than that, not much anyway. So it's all good. Mix and match, but don't tell the good folks at ISI that I told you so. Matthew Leaf, it landhouse writes in. Hey, Nastasia and Dave. Hope everything's going well with all your projects. Wednesday this week, I'm serving some snacks at a charity gala for 500 people. The dish I'm serving is short rib sliders with cheddar cheese sauce. The cheddar cheese is a whiz I made using sodium citrate and iota carragin and based on mirror bolds, mac and cheese sauce. I'm thinking for large production like this. It would be cool to have the cheese sauce and squeeze bottles for service. And my idea is to keep the squeeze bottles in a steam table water bath set up. Do you think this will be hot enough to keep the cheese liquefied? Would it be better to put the bottles directly into the water section of the steam table or to set up a hotel pan with water above the steam section? I was hoping to get your advice on this is I don't know if I'll have a chance to test it out prior to the event. Okay, yeah, it works. I've done it. The one problem you're going to have is, when I, when I do, uh, water, water table subs. I use an immersion circulator, which is very accurate, it's temperature holding. And then I have a top and I custom cut holes into the top to fit whatever I'm
+
+[42:54] going to have my inserts be, and I've done cheese sauce many, many times. What you're going to want to make sure is that wherever you're putting your bottles, you have like some sort of a
+
+[43:02] cage, so that the bottles don't fly around in there, they'll automatically find their own level of cheese sauce and they'll float in the top of the thing, but you have to contain them so that they don't just fly around the bath and turn upside down and then leak water into the top of your cheese
+
+[43:15] spouts. Does that make sense? You don't want water in your cheese spout. Gross. It doesn't even have meaning. I like that. You're like, it does sound really gross though, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Uh, Michael Notkin. Good friend Michael Napkin. Listener rather, we never met him. We never actually met him in real life. No, not yet. No, but he's like a blog friend or, you know, whatever. whatever you call it. From herba voracious writes in about smoking. Hey, Dave Nastasia, no Jack, no love for you, Jack. Even though you called him to get him on a show. Yikes. Man, crazy. I've got a question for you about stovetox. Tove, stove, top smoking. I generally just jury reek something with woodchips in a pot. I don't mind beating up. Usually hickory or mesquite. I know from modernist cuisine, not to soak the chips, because the temperature, the modernist cuisine says the lower temperature is actually not conducive for better smoke flavor, et cetera, et cetera. I'll let it rip over high heat until there's quite heavy smoke, then put a steamer basket in there with a single layer of whatever I want to smoke, onions, tofus, mushrooms,
+
+[44:08] et cetera, and go for 10 minutes or so. I found there was a nice smoky flavor, but also a bit of sourness that I don't love as much. It is fine, amazing, actually, and dishes like uh, the frijoles
+
+[44:17] charos, which you can see on the herboracious website. But the sourness is less appreciated in other contexts. Can you give me any clues as what's causing it and how to minimize it? Thanks, Michael. Okay, there's a couple of things that can happen when you break down wood. There's basically acetic gas and other things that are created called pyreligious acids, but I don't know if that's what you're talking about. If you look at a good website to a good website, a good article to look at is contribution of
+
+[44:40] phenolic compounds to smoke flavor by MAGA in 1992. And this, you know, it's awesome because it's one of those, you know, still done on a typewriter, so the fonts and courier, even on the web, it's like the crappy old courier font that you got in technical documents, which
+
+[44:53] Nastasia's too young to have looked at. Not that she looks at the technical documents now. She doesn't give a crap about it. So it turns out that the stuff that's formed at really low temperatures,
+
+[45:04] right, is acrid and bitter, right? Which is why they tell you not to soak the chips. The stuff formed in the middle zone, up to about 750 degrees C, is kind of the heart of the smoky flavor, and things that are formed above that
+
+[45:16] temperature are with higher boiling points, phenolic things with higher boiling points, can taste acidic. I'll read from that article. Phenol compound volatility is also a factor relative to smoke flavor contribution. The loaf boiling phenolic portion obtained from distillation of smoke was found to have primarily contained phenol creosols, and guayacols are described as hot and bitter taste. The fraction distilled at 92 to 132C contained isousinols and syringeoles. Those are the ones formed in the middle when much hotter, but they're formed in that middle
+
+[45:46] range, had a pure characteristic smoke flavor, and the high boiling stuff had an acid chemical sensory property.
+
+[45:52] Now, how do I recommend getting rid of, 1st of all, also, what's formed, there's a lot of different things. There's the temperature of your, the smoke makes a huge difference. which it's formed. Also, the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere where the smoke has a huge impact on the flavor. Also, the moisture in your food. Everything makes a difference. The temperature of the food, everything makes a difference. But I have a feeling this might help you. If you put a 2 steamer baskets, a deep one and a tall
+
+[46:19] one, put a layer of ice and then your food in a top one, it's going to make a colder smoke, and I think you might get some of those higher boiling compounds to condense onto the
+
+[46:30] ice as acid things, those acid sour tastings, and you might get a cleaner tasting product.
+
+[46:35] That how we used to do salmon. Nils used to do it that way. We were smoking large amounts of things. We would have a tray with ice. And then on top of that, another perv tray with our food, and we would put that over large hotel pans with burning wood in them.
+
+[46:47] And those things never came out with any of those kind of off labor. So I would give that a shot. And barring that, maybe the temperature's a little bit too high, turn the temperature down a little bit, don't let it rip so hard on the smoke. You want to hit more of a middle zone. Make sense, does? Sound good? But please let us know how that works. We got any more time here, Jack? Are we L shafted? All right, listen, Elliot Papineau wrote in. He doesn't boil his pretzels. Go boiler pretzels, boiler pretzels. Do it side by side on boiled pretzels with, you know, with some sort of basic thing versus not. Uh, you know, because I've done that test many, many times, and it makes a big difference. We still didn't get to rob Tripp as his cheese question. We did answer a bunch of his questions, but the thing is, I need a lot of time to talk about the cheese because I've been thinking a lot about cheese and cheese analogs. In fact, Chris Anderson from Modernist Cuisine. It's going to... Modest pantry. It's going to try to get me the Rennet casing, which is what you used to make completely cheeseless, cheese-based, um, cheese-based things. Uh, and we had a, you know,
+
+[47:45] a, I'm going to answer one real quick. No, you can't. I can't, I got to go do the egg whites next week and the, and the, and the meat analogs. Anyway, this has been cooking issues. We're back. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage Radio Network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[48:17] radio network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwood, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com. Today's show is brought to you by Hearst Ranch Grass Fed Beef, available on the internet at HearstRanch.com.
+
+[0:25] Fish. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta Sports, and
+
+[0:33] ba, ba, ba, ba, Bushwick on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Nastasia to Hammer Lopez, not with us today. Not with us. She is flying home as we speak. Her plane is being batted about in the turbulence over the Atlantic Ocean. She took her little sister to Switzerland over the weekend. Switzerland, huh? You like that, Jack? Nice. Nice, nice. Anyway, call your questions? Uh, cooking non-tech, tech, anything? Really, any question. We take any question, right, Jack? Two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Now, we don't have anyone yet, right? We had somebody call in when you aren't here, but hopefully he'll call us back in a few minutes. Because I said in the Twitter, I said 1205 because I knew I was late. Wow. I made it at 12.0. I was here at 12.05. you know, okay, that's late. It's unacceptable. I realized that. However, I'm slightly proud of myself. I made a Dave Arnold, fat, lazy, out of shape world record for biking from my apartment in the Lower East
+
+[1:30] Side to Bushwick. 15 minutes flat. Yeah. Seems like the studio is impressed. Yeah, yeah. Almost died. Didn't almost kill anyone, though. That's my main thing It's like, you know, me, my safety, not as important as not endangering the safety of pedestrians around me. Okay, so I have a bunch of questions from last week. I have some Twitter questions coming in. You can, unfortunately, since Nastasia is here, I can't really check the Twitter during the show, but we're at cooking issues. That's how you tweet us or whatever the hell you call it. Uh, every kid's car. At Heritage Radio and we can get it. Heritage underscore radio. Does that work? Does that happen? That works, that happens. Nice. Okay. Okay, so from a couple weeks ago, Rob Trey Paz wrote in about processed cheese. I want to make a cheese sauce using melting salts, which we'll talk about in a minute. If I'm out of breath, it's because I'm out of shape, by the way. If you hear like a, it's me trying to catch my breath. Anyway, I see in modernist cuisine. They use whey protein concentrate. Now, for those of you that don't know, modernist cuisine. We've talked about it. We've had all 3 authors, right, on the show? All three? Yes, we have. in studio, but we've had them all. Two of them in studio, right? Nathan hasn't been in the studio. He should sometimes. Yeah, next time he's in New York. Let's twist his his arm. Get him in. Anyway. You know, whatever, most ambitious, biggest cookbook undertaking all time, I'd have to say, probably all
+
+[2:53] time. It kind of rivals back when, you know, the pope used to, you know, have someone make the Sistine Chapel, it just didn't matter how much it
+
+[3:00] costs or how much time it took, that kind of thing, only with a cookbook. anyway. Uh, so, uh, he has uh, the recipe they're talking about, there's a, a cheese sauce. I think there's several cheese sauces in the modernist cuisine where they're basically using the techniques of processed cheese making to make better tasting higher end things. Anyway, so Rob writes in, I have sodium citrate and whey protein isolate. My understanding is that the way protein concentrate has the lactate sugars and the isolate has the sugars removed. What function does the concentrate have in this recipe? And can I substitute isolate or simply leave it out? Other recipes call for Joha, SDS2, sodium phosphate, what is it? What does it do? Where do you get eccentric, et cetera? Okay, look. I did a lot of research on processed cheese over the past couple weeks. It's a subject I haven't researched in a while, but I find it extremely interesting. Um, Wiley Dufram, by the way, my brother-in-law, chef of WD 50, loves himself some American cheese. were you aware of that? Did you know that? Loves American cheese and eggs. And he's not afraid to admit it. I'm not, like, letting the cat out of the bag, like, like I do with Nastasia. He will freely admit it. Hold on, take a sip of water. hold on. And breathing. Breath. Okay. The way you make a processed cheese is you take cheeses, and you add what's called a melting salt to them. And the melting salt is also called an emulsifying salt. And unlike a normal emulsifier, which has one part of a molecule that loves
+
+[4:26] fat and another part of a molecule of the molecule that loves water and thereby makes it easier for water and fat to live together. That's what an emulsifier does, or air and water or air and fat, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, it's not really like that. What it is, is, uh, it's, like, sodium citrate is one, polyphosphates are another, and what they do
+
+[4:44] is they actually make it easier for the, they unbind the casing. So there's caseine, which is the protein in milk solids. that causes cheese to bind together to coagulate. And it basically resolubilizes the casing and allows the casing to become an emulsifier. So these emulsifying salts, these melting salts, modify the
+
+[5:06] casing and make it easier for it to be runny and spreadable and
+
+[5:10] meltable all that great stuff. Now, you might be surprised to note that, uh, older cheese is, the ones that you typically would assume don't melt very well, uh, actually need the least amount of emulsifying salts in them
+
+[5:24] because, uh, their proteins are most broken down. It's actually young cheeses, the ones that you think would melt very easily, that in fact are very difficult to make a very smooth melted processed cheese out of. And that's why, uh, to go back, uh, Jack, are you familiar with fondue? What's that? Are you familiar with fondue? Do you know what the cheese of choice for fondue is? I don't. A Gruyere. Is it? Yeah. Why? Well, Gruyere is an aged cheese, right? So even though it's very high fat and high fat cheeses melt very easily, also, it's very aged. And so the proteins are broken down more than they would be in a very young cheese. And hence, even though it's an aged cheese, it melts extremely well and makes a fondue. Do you know what else you had to fondue, Jack? No. White wine. You know why? don't. Ah, because it's the tartrate in from tartaric acid, in wine that provides the natural emulsifying salt to make fondue super creamy and delicious.
+
+[6:22] That's why. Wow, I can sit here all day and say, I don't know to most things you say. Well, you know, we'll do a different show where it's all stuff that stumps me. Yeah exactly. Anyway, but the, but what's funny is, is that actually the Swiss were the 1st people to have a patent on processed
+
+[6:39] cheese. And one of the, uh, one of the ideas of why is because they were used to using wine in their famous melted cheese
+
+[6:48] fondue. And so they came up with processed cheese first, something that's typically blamed on Americans, but in
+
+[6:54] fact, is a Swiss invention. So, uh, way, you can add way to process cheese a number of different ways for different reasons. Depending on how much you add, it can have different effects. Way is typically used as a water binder, and so it could probably hold water in when you're melting
+
+[7:10] your cheese down. It's unclear to me because I don't have the recipe in front of me and I know I don't own the
+
+[7:17] modernist cuisine cookbook yet, so I couldn't look it up. Um, but it's probably there as a water binder and also to affect the meltability. Little bits added of whey protein tend to increase the meltability of a
+
+[7:30] cheese, and more additions tend to decrease the meltability of a cheese, and also decrease the flavor because whey protein fairly neutral in taste.
+
+[7:39] Now, as for that SDS said, Joha stuff, that is just a different kind of emulsifying salt. The one you're using sodium citrate was the 1st one that was used, it tends to not be so great for long-term usage, and it doesn't promote meltability as some of the phosphate
+
+[7:56] salts do, but it's good to have around because it modifies the pH. So sodium citrate is going to make things. It's a buffer, but I think we'll make things slightly more acidic, whereas some of the phosphate
+
+[8:06] salts are slightly more basic. And the pH of the cheese when you're done is fairly important to the texture. Usually you want to be right around five, 5.one. My memory serves me on the pH of melted cheese to get them right. I'm super interested in processed cheese. I saw an article where someone was making something that had the flavor of ketchup, but the meltability of cheese using a product I've tried to use once, but had no success with called rennet caseine,
+
+[8:33] basically completely constructed cheese analog with a different flavor. Modest pantry is trying to get it. And when Chris Anderson gets it, I'll get it and play around with it. But it reminds me of an experiment I did years ago, trying to make ketchup chocolate, which is texture of
+
+[8:50] chocolate flavor of ketchup. Anyway, so with that, why don't we take a commercial break? I catch my breath and call your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Cooking your juice.
+
+[10:02] Herst grass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hearst, ranch, grass fit, be free range, sustainably produced, humane. Hearst Ranch Grass Fed Beef. The authentic flavor of the American West.
+
+[10:35] And welcome back to cooking issues. So, Jack, we're going to do a giveaway today, true or false. True. So our good friends at the Heritage Meat Shop, which is at the Essex Street Market in New York
+
+[10:46] City on Essex and Delancey, are offering a free pork chop to the 1st listener that answers the trivia question you
+
+[10:54] pose to them. Okay, here's the trivia question. So the last question I'm going to answer from a reader. is from Carrie Camel, and Carrie writes in asking about egg substitutes and cocktail
+
+[11:05] in cocktails, and the 1st person who can call in with the name of a Colombian fruit that produces a frothy head on the top of a cocktail similar to an egg
+
+[11:17] white, without adding any sort of egg or other protein-based
+
+[11:23] stuff, wins the pork chop. Well, they can either call in. They can info at email. They can email us at info at heritageradionetwork.org. They can tweet us at heritage underscore radio or call into the show. So lots of options. You had to pick up the pork chop at the meat shop, though. We're not mailing it. Yeah, well, come to Essex Street market. You should come to Essex Street Market anyway. come to New York. Or if you're, you know, here's what you can do also. If you happen to live somewhere else, we'll hold it for you. They're not going to go out of business and not going to go anywhere, and next time you're in New York, come get the pork chop. Right? True or false. Probably, yeah. Sure. Pork chops will be around. Yeah, they'll be around. Everyone, people aren't going to all of a sudden stop liking pork chops. don't think so. No, it's not going to happen. Okay. So what that means, Carrie, if you're listening, is that your question is going to be last,
+
+[12:09] but... You do have callers on the line. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi, I'm calling from Hurst Australia. Oh, nice. I was just wondering, um, I do, at work, I do, uh, sous vide lamb rum, and probably one out of 10 come out really mushy after I, uh,
+
+[12:31] reheathen. So I cook them at 60 for an hour and 40, um, and then chill and then reheat at
+
+[12:39] 54, and um, after they've been in the bathroom about 15 minutes, about one in 10 come, come out really mushy. I was wondering if you could help me troubleshoot that. It's really odd. All the same muscle, the same exact muscle. Yeah, so it's all, it's all the rump and it's just uh cleaned and um, just been marinated in like olive oil, thyme, garlic, rosemary for a couple of days and then we roll it into a cylinder and then um, yeah, cook it and then chill it and then
+
+[13:06] reheat and yeah, probably one in 10 come out just like mushy as hell, like as if it's been cooked at like 78 and you want to flake it, but it's still like pink as. Huh. Well, it's, it's, so when I think of mushy normally, uh, in low temperature meats, um, that haven't been overcooked, right? I typically think of kind of a fibery, pasty kind of a feel,
+
+[13:27] uh, similar to, yeah, so if you like, and for those of you that haven't done a lot of low temperature work, it's difficult to describe because you haven't overcooked
+
+[13:35] it and the juice is still there, but it just turns to a massive fibers in your mouth when you chew it.
+
+[13:40] Yeah, that's it. And if, you know, and if any of you want to replicate this uh, at home, buy a filet mignon uh, piece, uh, tenderloin, and cook it at 544 for like 5 hours.
+
+[13:53] And then even though it's still rare, it's horrible. And it's because it's gone mushy. And typically, and what's the maximum time it's spent in the bath? Uh, Aaron 40. Yeah. How big around is the roll? Uh, probably one. 5 inches Okay. So I would cook it at what temperature? Six, 6, 60. So 140 for all you Fahrenheit heads. So here's what I would say. Um, If you're dealing with uh, meats that don't have a lot of connective tissue in them. Typically. Um, cooking any longer than the point of doneness is going to reduce the,
+
+[14:39] reduce the, the amount you're going to like the texture of the meat. So that's why on a duck breast, for instance, I only cook a duck breast for 45
+
+[14:48] minutes because if you cook it for longer, it may not adversely affects the texture, but sometimes it gets some of that mushiness that you have. Um, if I'm doing filet, I tend not to cook filet low temp, but if I'm going to do filet low temp, um, I'll cook it for like 45 minutes, even though it doesn't pasteurize it technically. Although some of the new programs out like the sous vide dash and the one that polycience had worked on, they'll write programs for surface pasteurization if you're not worried about the inside. But since you've actually rolled it, you kind of do need to get all the way to the inside of it and kill
+
+[15:20] it. Is that why you're doing that length of time? Although you shouldn't need to cook it that long at that high to pasteurize it. Yeah, we're doing uh, loin at 62 for uh, an hour and
+
+[15:34] 20. So we just, because we lowered the temperature when we changed the rump, we up the time just a little bit as well. Still, the thickness is still the same, so we just wanted to up it just because it was in there for longer at lower. Right. I, I, I, I would try to decrease the time. it might be the time doing it. Did you notice that the mushier ones had less kind of connected tissue or less inherent structure in them than the ones that weren't mushy? Was there any visual difference between them? Not really. They were all pretty identical in, I mean,
+
+[16:06] like even the size, like, didn't really matter, like how thick or thin they were, because obviously, they're not all identical. Even the, you know, the smaller, the bigger ones still have the same outcome. didn't really, didn't really matter on that. Right. I mean, it could also, I mean, it's possible that the different cuts of meat have different pHs and that could be affecting it as well. Like, you know, certain, you know, certain pork cuts here we have called PSE, pale
+
+[16:28] soft, and exudative, um, and, and we also have dark cutting meat on the other end of the spectrum at the end of the PH spectrum. And so it could be that you're having slight differences there that are affecting the water binding ability of the
+
+[16:40] meat, and that could be affecting the texture, but I would see if cutting your time down. Something that's, um, something that's an inch and a half across should not take more than an hour max. So see if you cut down to an hour whether or not your problem goes away. And if not, we're going to have to look at something like the actual differences between the individual cuts of meat.
+
+[17:01] Right. You know, because it could be that you're just right on the edge. Yeah. Yeah. But please, um, you know, if you if you can't, I don't know if, like, how much it costs a call, but if you can't call back, please just let me know what happens one way or the
+
+[17:15] other, because it helps me when I have to suggest things to people in the future. Just let us know whether or not that helped out. Also, is it true that in the south of Australia, people bike on the sidewalk everywhere? Is it true that people in Australia bike on the sidewalks? I was told this by someone on the Twitter? Because I was... Sometimes, might say on the
+
+[17:35] ride there. Yeah, that makes sense. On the road. I was in Japan, and people were biking on the sidewalk constantly. I was in constant danger of getting mowed down by people on the sidewalk. I'm glad to see that in Australia. ride on the roads. Roads. Roads, roads. Yeah, I watched the today tonight that you have been ranting about as well, is pretty horrible. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that show is that show is terrible. Is that thing still on the air? Coming from Australian? Is that still on the air? They still have that show? Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's the worst. I need to make it to Australia sometime, not to rant about that, but to have some of the great produce. I'm especially interested. I know it's not Australian, but I'm interested in the New Zealand's, the Porman Orange. You know, the New Zealand grapefruit, the Portman orange. Fantastic. It's a fantastic piece of citrus. The, yeah, try to get a hold of it. I think they grow it in Australia as well, but I think the problem with it is has to be really, really fresh, which is maybe why it's not shipped out here. Um, and I know Australia is huge. So just because, you know, it's from New Zealand doesn't mean it's close to you, but you're not going to have the import problems that we do. So you try to get a hold of it. Fantastic citrus, both to eat and for use in cocktails. I've only had it once or twice, but delicious. I'll look it up. Thanks very much. Thank you very much for your help. Bye bye. We have another caller. And, um, we also, before we get to that caller, we have a, um, a William McGee
+
+[18:58] asking if the fruit is Naranjila. Ooh, no, no, I believe that's a passion fruit. Let me look it up. No, it's not the one I was thinking of. Let me look it up. It's not the one I was thinking of. I might have to give it to him if I'm going to look it up during that one up during the next commercial break and then we'll see whether or not
+
+[19:20] that's associated. the one I had in mind. But it may work. All right, we'll see. So we have another call on the line. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, this is Johnny Clark from Memphis, Tennessee. Hey, Dave, how you doing? All right. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I have a suckling pig, uh, 20 to £30 that I've cut, uh, down the
+
+[19:40] back and taken the sides off, um, with the belly attached, and I have some questions about cooking it sous vide versus, uh, conventional, um, time and temperature wise, and I wanted, uh,
+
+[19:57] of course, a nice crispy skin. Oh yeah. If you have any, uh, any advice for me, that would be great. All right, here you go. So 1st of all, you have a you have a good problem, how to cook a delicious product, right? Um, yeah, uh, By the way, Memphis, one of those towns I have not been to. Can you freaking believe that?
+
+[20:18] I know, it's ridiculous. ridiculous. It's one of the great. one of the great, obviously, one of the great barbecue towns in the country, and great for so many other things. Music. It's just, it's a complete travesty that I haven't made it there yet. But I will someday make it there. Now, here's the issue with a suckling pig as opposed to a larger pig, like a
+
+[20:37] full-size hog. I'm going to go out here and hopefully I don't anger anyone, but
+
+[20:43] um, in general for hogs, uh, for whole hogs doesn't apply to suckling pigs. I don't think it's necessarily possible to do the best job cooking the thing whole. Here is why. Not every muscle in a hog wants to cook the same way. Do you know what I mean? So, and I don't know why his name popped out of my head, but the famous whole hog guy,
+
+[21:06] Mitchell, Ed Mitchell, right? Ed Mitchell. He likes to cook the whole hog. When he does it, what he'll do is he'll like machete the whole hog up after he's done, get little bits of crunchy
+
+[21:16] skin, uh, and the fact that certain pieces of muscle are kind of pasty and overcooked, specifically the muscles without
+
+[21:24] connective tissue like the loin. It doesn't matter so much because that's covered up by the sauce and it's massed by the fact that there's all kinds of cuts in there that are good after they've been cooked for
+
+[21:33] a long period of time. But that said, suckling pig's a little bit different because it doesn't require as long a cooking time as a whole hog does because nothing in a suckling pig takes
+
+[21:47] as long to break down as something in a whole hog. So it's possible, I think, to get something that's pretty delicious all the way through without having to break it down. And also there's more fat and stuff, even in the areas that are kind of low connective tissue in a younger, in a
+
+[22:02] younger, It kind of distributed better. Does that make sense or no? I, yeah, but what I've done is I've cut the, uh, front legs off and then cut down the loin.
+
+[22:13] and left the loin and the belly attached, and I was gonna roll it up. So, it's just one muscle, the loin that we're talking about wrapped up, and uh, BRT, so. Right. Well, but the belly's the belly's attached to the loin? Okay, good. So they'll cook the loin at like, I would do, I would do low temp, like sous vide. I would cook that loin for, I would go low. Depends on your on your, on your, on your guest slash customers or whatever, but I tend to go, uh, you, there are people out there
+
+[22:47] cooking uh, pork as low as, um, 57, but that's rare, pink, real pink looking, and um, you're going to have some people that'll balk. You know what I mean? I, you know. I was thinking 58, something like that. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So if you take it up to 60, it's still pretty juicy as long as you don't cook it too long. Um, no, very, very few, fewer people will balk at, uh, at 60. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, and it's still good. You might want to run a test. I tend to do a lot of my pork at 60 just because it's actually still slightly pink, but what happens is when you do the finishing cook on it, especially if you pull it from hot and do the finishing on the outside,
+
+[23:29] it tends to just be a little bit rosy in the very center and people are okay with that typically. Yeah, they'll be okay with it. Yeah. And so the pieces that have the skin on, I tend to let cool off quite a bit without unbagging it or taking it out of the fat or whatever I'm cooking it
+
+[23:47] in, so that I can get a really long, crisping time on the skin because I like to get the skin super, super crispy and crunchy, and I like to take a little bit of time doing it because
+
+[23:59] I, the, especially with a torch, unless you have a really good torch, and by that, I mean, one that doesn't have any uncombusted gas hitting it, there's so much fat on the skin of a piece of pork that it can pick up some of that torch taste, and it's also difficult to not get scorch marks on it with a torch.
+
+[24:18] If you have to use a torch to touch up pieces of the skin afterwards, it's going to ruin your chinois, but I recommend firing it or if you have a piece of stainless steel mesh, fire your torch at the stainless steel piece of mesh, and use that almost as
+
+[24:31] a heating grill because, um, um, that like this, the red hot mesh will combust the rest of the, the nasty gas taste that you um, would ordinarily get out of a propane torch. Alternatively, if you have a butane torch and a source of gas in it that doesn't
+
+[24:48] have a lot of those, you know, those captains that they add to it to make it smell terrible so that you know if you have a leak, like some of the tobacco brands don't have a lot of taste to
+
+[24:58] them, and then you don't have to worry about it so much. But I really prefer deep frying and or like
+
+[25:04] shallow oil pan fry rendering of the skin just because it does a really good job and penetrates all the way through.
+
+[25:12] If you need to render out some of the fat, I would do some of, although I don't think you will, I would do a modernist cuisine's trick that they do with the duck breast, which is they buy a new dog brush,
+
+[25:22] the kind with the bristles, and they hit it with the bristles to kind of allow the fat to render out.
+
+[25:27] What I've done is I've taken some of the skin and I soup baited it for 6 hours at 140. Right. And then I was going to, uh, scrape
+
+[25:40] the spot and put it in dehydrator. Okay. And then fry it. Is that a good idea? Uh, I, yeah, at 140. I'm trying to think, um, so you want it to puff like a chicharron or you want it to still have a lot of bite to it. Uh, I wanted to crunch. I'll chit your wrong. Right. So, so typically when I do like pork rinds, um, I'll, I won't, I don't low
+
+[26:07] temp them. I cook the hell out of them, actually. Like, uh, because the, what you're doing, if you want it to fully puff, like a, like a
+
+[26:14] chicharron style, like, like pork rinds, like in a package at store. Yeah, yeah, the trick there is you need to render all of the collagen into gelatin, all of
+
+[26:23] it. Uh, and and I typically do that by boiling it in salted water for like, like boiling it in very salted water for like 60 minutes. 70 minutes, something like that, until it's shot, completely shot. And then I drain it and let it cool because one, it'll burn the heck out of your hands. And two, it's very, very fragile until it cools down when it cools down, the gelatin's going to start to set up a little bit. Then I once and then I put it in the fridge flat. When it's cold, then it's got more structured to it. Then I scrape it, dehydrated, and fried, and it puffs up huge. And if you want it to not puff up quite as much. You don't scrape it as much. I'd be really interested to know what the texture difference is between
+
+[27:08] cooking it 140 and cooking it the way I normally do, which is, you know, at boiling. Um, I'd be very interested to know what the textural difference is because my feeling is you're going to get, you're not going to have rendered out all
+
+[27:22] the, the collagen and so it's going to hold together a little better. What happens in a pork rind is you dehydrate it just till it turns kind of flexi plastic like a shrinky danket from when I was a
+
+[27:31] kid to dehydrate. It totally depends on the on the dehydrator, but I really honestly just do it by by
+
+[27:39] eye, and it should it should feel it goes from being a piece of skin to all of a sudden looking like a piece of
+
+[27:47] plastic, and I would just keep like test frying little pieces. And once you see it one time, you'll know what's right. And the best way, honestly, it depends on how humid it is, but, you know, where you are, but, um, what I'll do
+
+[28:01] is, it's humid. Yeah, I usually I usually dehydrate it about 80% of the way, and then pull it out and let it sit overnight, and sometimes it'll take itself all the rest of the
+
+[28:15] way. It's very, it's very hard to get it rehydrated if you've overdehydrated. So that you really want to guard against overdehydrating because tempering it back to the proper moisture content is
+
+[28:28] just it's a bear. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I would just keep looking at it. caliber dehydrator on the 12 tray or something like that. Um, so if that helps, um, about what
+
+[28:42] do you temperature? I started at 135. I started outside. Yeah, I usually started at 135. I'll let it go for, uh, I'll get let it go for, you know, a couple of hours. I look at it. And then what you could do overnight, if you have it, is just turn it down to its lowest setting, and then let it ride. It shouldn't overdehydrate overnight on the lowest possible setting, which is, I believe, 95 on the Excalibur. But it's better. You can always pulse dehydrate to get more of the stuff out, and once it's partially dehydrated, it's not going to spoil on you. So you don't need to worry about spoilage. Do you know what I'm saying? What's up, porcelain? Oh, just what do you think? So I was partially dehydrated. What do you name? Oh, so in other words, like, uh, if you, if you, if you don't dehydrated enough, what's going to happen is
+
+[29:31] when you fry a test piece, it's going to have like a little, uh, like a kernel on the
+
+[29:36] inside that's not going to puff up, okay? When you overdehydrate it, it'll burn and just not puff up as much because there's not enough water to expand it anymore.
+
+[29:45] So, uh, you know, what I usually do is, is I don't let it dehydrate. If I'm going to go to bed, I don't let it dehydrate when I'm not there because I don't want
+
+[29:53] it to overdehydrate. But as long as you've started the dehydration process, you've reduced the water content of it enough that you're not going to get microbial spoilage in it overnight. So you don't need to worry about it. And then, you know, the next day, if it, if, you know, it hasn't kind of tempered out and become even all the way through, if you fry a piece in the morning, then you can just dehydrate it for another
+
+[30:14] hour. So, and usually that's enough to get it in the right, in the right state. The real thing, like I say, it's just a guard against overdehydrating. Okay. appreciate you. Hey, hey, tell us how it works out. I will. Thanks, Dave. Have a good day You too. Hey, Dave. Yes. So William McGee followed up and said maybe the correct name is Lulu? Lulu, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I have to also give a shout out to Andy Melka, who also answered Lulu. Can we give 2 pork chops away? If Andy's not in New York, but if he comes, yes. We will give the 2 pork chops away. There you go. Two winners on the pork chop. So I can now go back and answer Carrie Camel's question before the end of the show because we have 2 correct answers. take a very quick break before that. All right, quick break. Come back. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128.
+
+[31:22] The following is a message from the Heritage Meat Shop. Are you tired of just hearing buzzwords? Do you want to actually take part in the food revolution? Then come on down to the Heritage Meat Shop, located in New York's historic Essex Street Market, on the corner of Essex and Delancey. We have rare breed pork, beef, poultry, lamb, and
+
+[31:43] goat, not to mention charcuterie that'll make you squeal. All raised right, by the right people, so you know they'll taste right. Try the meat that over 100 New York chefs ache for. Come to the heritage meat shop and pick up some revolution today. For more information, visit heritagemeetshop.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. Okay, so actually, before I go into Carrie Campbell's question, something apropos of the pork, we had a Twitter question in that from Ryan Rogers
+
+[32:13] saying, does removing the membrane from ribs prior to smoking or sous vide,
+
+[32:19] should you remove the membrane either before or after? What we're talking about is on the bone side of ribs. There's a kind of a membrane. You know what I'm talking about, Jack? That membrane that kind of like you can see. Yeah. Hey, Ryan Rogers, I went to college with. The same one? fairly certain. Wow, cool. Was he a good guy? I believe he's a chef in Kentucky now. Nice. Nice, nice. Well, do you like that memory? I actually happen to like it. I don't mind it. Yeah. What I'm weird. I'm a bad person because like the both of us were bad people, because all the people who know what they're talking about, they tend to say to remove it for textual
+
+[32:50] reasons, because most people don't like it. I would remove it beforehand. I haven't had that much experience with leaving it on, but uh, versus not, I've never done this side by side, but everyone who removes it, say they remove it to get better penetration of rubs and or
+
+[33:05] spice. I'm assuming that if you're going to add smoke, uh, that it's better to take it off earlier because you're going to get better penetration through it than if you
+
+[33:13] uh, didn't in terms of flavors and things like that. fairly easy to strip off, strips off the same way that the membrane strips off of a skirt steak. So I would say remove it beforehand beforehand. The other question was, should you do, I'm assuming you mean low temperature. Should I do a Boston butt boneless or bone in low temperature? I would say take the bone out. It's just here's why. As much as everyone I know loves gnawing things off of the bone. The bone is really helpful as a protectant when you're cooking normally, but I don't think it's going to give you any benefit when you're doing low temperature because the whole point of low temperature
+
+[33:48] is you're not going to overcook the meat anyway. And in terms of presentation and slice ability, you're going to want to get that thing out of there so you can roll it. It's also going to take less long to cook. You're gonna get more accurate temperatures in the center. If you are vacuum bagging it, you're not going to pull any of the weird blood things out of the
+
+[34:04] bone. If you pull the bone out, gives you a chance to trim some of the cartilage things away. So I would definitely take the bone out. That's just, that's just my feeling. Okay, let's take some cocktail questions. Uh, we'll do we'll do carries 1st because she's uh, here, uh, is Keith and Carrie's man or woman. Carrie Camel. I don't know. I think just Campbell. Carrie camel? I was called Carrie. Camel? No, Carrie. First name, Carrie. First name, Carrie. Carrie. Carrie. Anyway. Question for the podcast. I'm looking for a substitute for egg white to use in a Pisco sour type drink. RGM will not allow egg whites behind the bar, but I am looking for something to give a drink, a similar
+
+[34:41] mouthfeel and foam. Gum syrup, maybe. Can I make syrup with egg white powder? Thanks, PSD mine, sharing a recipe for the coriander syrup. Here's the recipe for the coriander syrup that we use at the bar. Take 150 grams of fresh coriander seed, put it into a liter of water, blend it in a
+
+[34:59] blender, and one kilo of white sugar, bring it to the boil, toss in a bunch of crushed red pepper,
+
+[35:08] stir and keep tasting it. you know, turn the heat off. Stir and keep tasting it until the spice picks up to the level you want. You need a bit of spiciness in the back end of that thing to have it work correctly when we use it similar to like a ginger ale, then put it. I would put a fine core chinois, like a core strainer inside of a fine chinois, and dump it through that. The corschinois will catch most of this stuff and the fine, well, chinois will catch the rest and it allows you to
+
+[35:35] sprain it one time, let it cool, and you're good to go. Okay. Um, so anyway. Um, what can you use? Well, you can make a drink, uh, to do in a Pisco, a Pisco style drink might be really interesting with Lulo. Lulu is a South American. I think of it as a Colombian fruit, and they use the juice of it constantly, and it makes an amazing kind of creamy head on the top, foamy head on
+
+[35:59] it just from the hydrocobloids that are naturally in the lulu. So you could look for fruits that naturally want to foam up when you're doing a
+
+[36:06] sour style drink. Lulo is also acidic. So it would, it also it's kind of a cool green color. Um, green or yellow penny. But you can, uh, it's really, uh, it's really interesting so you could do something like that. If you want to use, I mean, powdered egg white, unfortunately, doesn't taste so good. Um, I've done side by sides with uh, pasteurized egg white, uh, powdered egg white, uh, my, you know, my pasteurized egg
+
+[36:30] white, and um, and regular egg white with Kentagoto from Pegu Club years ago. And the fresh egg white was better. If your GM would let you use pasteurized egg whites in the
+
+[36:42] box. They're not as good, but they're not, I mean, whatever. I don't even know if they're GM's going to let you use that. You can pasteurize your own egg whites in an immersion circulator, or you can use gum syrup, and it's going to add some of the body to it. What I would do is make a call up TIC gums, and they have a bunch of kind of really high quality filming agents that you can use that they, and if you call TIC gums and tell them what your problem is, they have a product for
+
+[37:10] you. The one that we use, I've used for making kind of creamy heads on things is called Tickaloid 310 or 210 S, and it's basically gum
+
+[37:17] Arabic with a little bit of Xanthan gum in it. And if you want to increase the foamy head nature of it even more, you could dope it with a little more Xanthan. You just don't want to add too much Xanthan because it can add kind of a snotty, slippery mouth feel to it. The commercial fake egg white foamer, I looked up one of the ingredients for
+
+[37:38] it, and it's got an emulsifier, poly sorbet 80, Fee Brothers, potassium sorbate, and some sodium benzoate. But it lists its main ingredient as propylene glycol, which is an
+
+[37:50] antifreeze. It's it's used, it's food grade, but it's, you know, it's not like fantastical. I don't love it. But I think they probably meant is propylene glycol alginate, which is
+
+[38:01] a kind of a modified alginate that is used as a beer head agent in beer. And it's not natural, but it's neutral and it is a foaming agent to increase the stability in the head of beer. So if you shake it, it's going to stabilize the bubbles that are formed. And you could do something like that, but it's kind of horrible. I would just get to pure propylene glycolalgenate that doesn't have any kind of weird flavorings or anything in it, but it's gonna, if
+
+[38:28] in used in large amounts, it's gonna probably have a slippery kind of a feel to it. I don't know that you're going to enjoy that so much. Does that make sense, Jack? Sorry, yes, it does. I was away from the bike there. All right, that's okay. Don't worry about that. Okay. Now, I have another cocktail question in from Hayden Lambert on how do I remove the color from homemade tonic water has to be super low tech.
+
+[38:51] Well, when I make tonic water, it doesn't have any color because I don't use the bark. you know, the, I forget the, I always get the name of the tree wrong. It's like Kinchona or something like that. But I don't use the bark of the tree. I use quinine sulfate USP, which I get from a chemical house, which is what, you know, what the big folks use to make tonic
+
+[39:12] water, industrial equinine sulfate. It's a lot easier to dose, but is it expensive? And if you want to make it from bark, you got to make from bark, it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be kind of colored and probably cloudy. Now, you're not going to get rid of the color through any normal filtration technique, like coffee filter or whatnot. But you should definitely put it all through a coffee filter so that when you carbonate it, you're not going to have a lot of crud floating
+
+[39:37] around, which is going to stop your ability to carbonate well. If you want to remove color, the only thing I know that strips color out that's really low tech is
+
+[39:45] charcoal filter, but it's going to have to have mult, like activated charcoal, like Brita, but it's going to take a long time and be aware that the activated charcoal won't just be stripping color, it'll also be stripping flavor.
+
+[39:57] So I don't know what the affinity of activated charcoal is to quinine or to the other flavors that are in there. So, um, it's unclear to me what will happen. But I know there are some people out there who actually filter their bidders through Brita's to kind of clear them up a little bit,
+
+[40:17] but I mean, it's going to have a radical effect on flavor. In fact, there was a, there was a company a number of years ago, and their main, uh, their, well, their, their only product was, it was some take on, uh, on Gray Goose, but I forget what it was, was it was a charcoal filter so that you could go by the,
+
+[40:34] like, the world's cheapest, crappiest vodka and filter it through this thing, like, like four, five, 6 times and turn it into an actually not unpleasant neutral vodka and had a picture of a guy with a fur hat on, like waisted out of his
+
+[40:47] mind. You ever seen this jack? Oh, I haven't. And so someone gave it to me at the French culinary years ago. And, uh, it was like an Exolom, and he, you know, he said, uh, hey, you know, uh, can, you know, would you ever like, I was like, no, I can't, I can't advocate taking cheap vodka, pouring it through a filter, and then drinking it so that like frat kids
+
+[41:08] can uh, get crunked up for cheap. I mean, that's just not what I do for a living, you know? I'm not against it. But, you know, but it's not like kind of, it's not my shtick. you know what I'm saying? Uh, but that said, we used it all the time to take cheap liquor and kind of
+
+[41:22] uh, kill it so that we could use it and test it to school without having to spend out for expensive
+
+[41:27] uh, vodka when we were doing infusion work. So it definitely does strip flavors out. And we used to put bourbon through it to see what would happen and it strips not all of the color, but some of the color. And in fact, it's filtration, it strips the color out of age rums when they turn them back to white again. Really? Yeah. What do they taste like? The bourbons and rums. They're just, they just kills them a little bit. You know what I mean? It just deadens them up. you know, I mean, I was never, I mean, in vodka, like taking away that that hospital swab goes is a good thing, but in most other situations, um,
+
+[41:59] you know, it's not necessarily, not necessarily the best. Uh, okay, uh, Marty with Eagle Rock rights in. This isn't to elicit Nastasia's vegan face. Don worry about it. She an airplane now anyway. I recently made the decision to keep vegetarian at home and I'm trying to create a mix that will serve as a base for things like patties and meatballs.
+
+[42:17] I like the flavor and moisture level of the garbanzo lentil, onion, criminy, dried porcini roast eggplant, pearl barley mix. Jesus, that's quite a mix. It's mouthful. That is a mouthful. can't believe I got that out in one breath only because I did it later in the show when I've caught my breath. Yeah. But it lacks the elastic resistance of denatured meat. I thought soy flour might help, but nope, I would also like to come up with a vegan meatball that doesn't dissolve in marinara.
+
+[42:40] Any thoughts, Marty and Eagle Rock? Okay, here's what I would do. Um, in order to get like an elastic situation, you're going to need a gel that's going to bind
+
+[42:48] together. I know you tried soy protein, uh, you know, powder, but what you might not have tried is getting proteins, for instance, if you want to go vegan, you can't use caseine, but you could use soy, uh, you know, you could go to something, you know, like a
+
+[43:02] tempeh or one of those things that everyone uses or texturized vegetable protein. But you might be able to get some soy and then add some transglutaminates to it. And transgutaminates works on soy protein to firm up things like tofu. And so you might be able to get bonding between soy protein in a
+
+[43:21] patty. And so if you want to go vegan, you have to get a transglutaminates that doesn't have any caseine added to
+
+[43:28] it or gelatin. And so you're going to have to use Transgutaminase Activa, which is made by a Ginomoto TI. The TI is the enzyme only with maltodextern and doesn't have any caseine and doesn't have any gelatin.
+
+[43:43] It's a vegan product. And that one, if you mix it in a slurry with soy protein, the soy protein, once it's solubleized, should bond to itself over the course of about 4 hours.
+
+[43:58] So you would you would make the patties, you would set them in the fridge for 4 hours, overnight is even
+
+[44:04] better, and they should firm up a lot more and then not break apart when you cook them, right? That seems like a good idea to me. Seems like it would work. And, you know, then you don't have to use any sort of awful, you know, fake meat crap, which, you know, most of those things are horrible.
+
+[44:21] Jack, how much more time do I have? I hate to do this to you, but it's time. Oh man. I didn't get to answer all the questions. A recurring theme on the show, I'd say. All right, listen, ET from Reed College. Name something interesting about Reed College. Oh man, I don't know. You ready for this? Yeah, it's important. I heard someone in Portland gets this. They have the world's only nuclear reactor run entirely by undergraduates. Oh my god. Wow. Yeah, it's like simultaneously. 0 my god, I wish I went there. That's awesome. And then I'm like, holy crap, they have a nuclear reactor run by undergraduate. We're Portland undergraduates at that. I know, it's crazy, right? I mean, like, you know, Portland, like the more you learn about Portland, the cooler it is, except for they don't, people only bike, they don't walk. This is what I like about New York City. It's a walking city. I can see people. I bike, but I also like to walk around. Anyway, ET answered from an alumni alumnus of
+
+[45:15] Reed, answered the question we had weeks ago on Orchada. Next week, I will read ET's answer. We'll talk about eels and tobacco and Seiji Yamamoto and how he uses a compressed
+
+[45:26] air gun to do Ikigime on eels. Probably after my Ikigime post goes up next week on the blog. A couple other questions I didn't get to. We didn't get to you, but we haven't forgotten, you will get them next week. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[45:44] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on heritageradionetwork.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[46:02] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. Got my head all twisted. can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.com. Today's show has been brought to you by our good friends at Tech Serve. Visit techserv.com for more information.
+
+[0:23] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie issues. in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, roughly 12 to 1245. Joined again this week by Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Nice. At FYI, I'll have you know that Heritage Radio Network, and I was something about copyright. Is it copyright? Copyright issues? We're moving towards using... We have no issues. just decided to do this. Yeah, well, you know, I just want everyone to know that Jack is working on some of the music you're listening to while you're waiting for me to show up, right? Is that true? You're writing the music? Oh, yeah, that's always been mine. yeah. Yeah nice. Shout out to check. Uh, But, uh, I also I brought, you know, Jack told me to bring in some of my college bands. We might hear some of that later, some of my college band stuff, since there's no copyright issues with that. And Jack, I know they're not a sponsor, but can we listen to the 1st Ranch Grass Fed Beef song later on? Whoa, you might have to wait until they sponsor. Oh, come on, really? They'll be back soon. We've got a tech serve commercial for you today. Really? It's good one. grass-fred beef is like the best song. It's my favorite. I like sing that jam as I'm walking around the streets. I'll tell Brian that Brian Kenny. It's good. It's good stuff, right? It's awesome. You should have seen the face Nastasia made when she, when I told her we'd be playing your band today. Oh, was it worse than vegan or similar to? On par. On par with a vegan face? Yeah. So another thing last week when I started the show, I was so out of breath that you could literally hear me gasping for
+
+[1:51] air during the 1st segment. This time, I'm a little more rested because I almost died on the bike ride over, which is part of the reason I was a little later than even normally.
+
+[1:59] For those of you that, well, everyone who listens to the show knows that Nastasia hates hipsters more than almost anything else on
+
+[2:04] earth besides good weather. And, um, But you might not know that Nastasia and I both ride fixed gear bicycles.
+
+[2:13] Now, for those of you that, you know, are going to cry foul that were actually secret hipsters, we both ride folding fixed gear
+
+[2:21] bicycles, which were about the least hip bicycles on Earth. But today when I was demon pedaling down the downslope on the Williamsburg
+
+[2:29] Bridge, I threw my chain. And for those of you, a fixed gear bicycle, throwing a chain is can be really dangerous because it can lock your back wheel and send you flying off onto
+
+[2:40] the thing. Anyway, luckily I didn't die and I did make it here on time. So, well, no, I mean, late, but, you know, not dead. I made it not dead. right? Good. Anyway, call all your questions too. 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128. I want to start with. I had 2 separate comments in the questions today about a new circulator that's on Kickstarter called, what's it called,
+
+[3:03] hairstyles Namiko? Namiko? Did you know who made Naniko? Why didn't you mention this to me? Why you knew this and you never mentioned it to me? You knew he was making a circulator? I read it this morning. Anyway, so I went on the, I go on the thing and someone's like, hey, look at the circulator. And I, and I look at it and it's like one of the creators is, is bam. First of all, we pop. If you're out there, we pop. We pop, we pop, slash bam, soupy pot, is one of our former interns, worked with us at the FCI. We love WePop. We pop's good business. So, uh, WePop, whose name is WePop, which is the greatest name on all of all times, decides that he needs a nickname and goes by Bam, which is not even partially as cool as WePop, true or
+
+[3:47] false. You know? Anyway. So, uh, WePop is out there making a circulator, and 2 separate people, 2 separate non-WePop people
+
+[3:54] have uh, written to see what I think about it. And you go, it's Namico, you can look for it on Kickstarter. They need an extra, I think, $40,000 in the next, how many, like 14 days or something like that? Anyway, they need another of like $50,000. They got 160,000 or so out of 200,000 that they need to get their Kickstarter money. Uh, but he's designed, this uh, this immersion circulator looks a little bit like a shower head. It looks kind of like a we pop design, right? It's got one knob. What is it? Can you find out what the price is supposed to be? Yeah, find out what the price is supposed to be? My one comment on it as opposed to the ones that I use. It's, you know, it's a little bit less powerful. It's 750 watts instead of a thousand, but it's made for home people.
+
+[4:39] and good luck to good luck to Wepop, right? Yeah. Good luck. I mean, I love myself some WeePop. you know? I wish that instead of coming out with a circulator, he would make some of the food products I want him to
+
+[4:48] make, like wee popsicles, wee popcorn. You know, right? I mean wouldn't that be great? You wouldn't want that? I like that he's doing this. Well, can he do both? Can't he have wee popcorn? It's pretty amazing that he came up with this so quickly. Well, he does rapid products. It doesn't, I don't think it's not in production yet. Yeah, it's like a, it's like a rapid, it's a, he has a rapid prototyping work on it. And we pop, aside from going to school for culinary, went to school as an industrial
+
+[5:15] designer, currently living in Bangkok, and I thought doing like training, like stock training. Last time we spoke to him, he was doing stock training. We pop, man of man of many pops, we pop. Lovely pop. Okay. So that's all I'm going to say about Namiko right now, right? So that's both questions I answered. Yeah, okay. Okay. I suppose this is really a food issue rather than a cooking issue. But I was curious to hear your opinion on the perspective, large soda ban in New York. It seems Dave is a bit of a bubble addict, and well, I know this might be more of a political issue, I figure it couldn't hurt to ask Pat. Well, listen, Pat, and anyone else out there, you are welcome to ask us food and issues as opposed to cooking
+
+[5:56] issues, and we have no problem making pronouncements or getting political,
+
+[6:01] right? I think it's, oh, and by the way, what we're talking about here is Bloomberg has proposed a ban on selling sodas,
+
+[6:10] sugarful sodas, larger than 16 ounces. So in New York City, uh, 20 ounce soda bottles would be illegal or to
+
+[6:20] sell, uh, sugarful ones, you could buy sugar less ones. Uh, and uh, like big go. Well, heck, no, big gulps, I think, are still legal, right? There's some sort of weird thing, like certain venues can sell it, like convenience. Anyway, there's all these kind of weird things. But restaurants wouldn't be able to sell sodas larger than 16
+
+[6:37] ounce. And the theory behind it is that, you know, their feeling is that sodas are empty calories, a term which I detest, I detest the word empty calorie almost as much as I detest the word junk food. And because I think it's stupid. There's no, there's no foods that are inherently evil. There are bad habits, right? There's no such thing as food that's inherently evil unless you add literal poison to it. Or somehow you're destroying the earth actively by eating it, you know, like on purpose. Like, you know, I don't know, or like, you know, that you're told that eating this piece of food will cause someone else to suffer in another country on purpose.
+
+[7:12] I mean, like there's no literally very few literally junk bad foods, just bad habits. anyway. So rather than trying to change people's habits, right? Rather than through education and habit changing, uh, they want to stop New York City residents from consuming calories in the form of soda by literally limiting what can be
+
+[7:34] sold. Um, think it's dumb. What do you think, Nasasha? Have you thought about it at all? No, never mind. What do you think? To be clear, though, this is sugar sodas. not just carbonation, right? Yeah, but they're not going to, in other words, I can go, yeah, correct. I mean, it's not anticarbonation. It's basically trying to make a stab against the rise
+
+[7:53] in diabetes here and across the country. What about non-carbonated sugary drinks? I'm not sure. I know that juices are exempt, which are extremely high in calories. I know that like, you know, your 8000 quart milk beverage from Starbucks is exempt, you know, that has like 50,000 pumps of syrup in
+
+[8:14] it, and, you know, has a 10000000005 calories that they call a coffee, but isn't actually a jug of milk.
+
+[8:20] Like that one is exempt. Um, To be fair to people who are thinking about it, There are a lot. I mean, people do consume a lot of soda and people are fat and people do have diabetes. You know what I mean? On the other hand, I think this is an incredibly poorer way
+
+[8:39] about, you know, of trying to fix it. It's on the order of, you know, I don't know, you know how they
+
+[8:48] say people are just treating symptoms rather than causes. They're treating like a simple symptom rather than rather than,
+
+[8:55] you know, any sort of the root causes. The problem is, is that people's dietary habits in general are bad. And I think the reason why our dietary habits in general are bad is because we have this demented idea about food anyway, that there's these such things as good foods, you know, or like junk food, versus like food that's really good for you, and then
+
+[9:18] people all of, you know, people feel that, well, I'm not eating healthy anyway, so I'm going to go completely ape shit, and then they drink like 85 quarts of soda and
+
+[9:27] go horrible instead of just having everyone try to meet in the middle, a sensible diet. You know, like you don't try try to be some, you know, ascetic vegan monk who only eats like, you know, half of a vegetable once every 3 days and consider that healthy, which I don't find that healthy,
+
+[9:41] right? Or versus someone who pounds 85 Big Macs a day. I don't consider that healthy either. You know what I mean? Like neither of those is healthy. Healthy is meeting in the middle. And I think, uh, you know, the way to get us to start thinking that way isn't to put a ban on something, i.e. to make it more, when you put a ban on something like that, you're basically making it more enticing to
+
+[10:01] people. You're saying, oh, you can't have this, it's forbidden, so it must be good and fun and awesome. You know what I mean? I think the way to do it is to change the education,
+
+[10:10] change the way we think about food in general, stop thinking about, you know, what, you know, foods as being inherently healthy and unhealthy. Think of habits as being healthy or unhealthy. That's my feeling on it. I think this is an incredibly poor way to go about legislating health. I think we shouldn't be legislating dietary habits. I think it's not the government's business in general to be legislating my dietary habits. That's just my feeling. You have any thoughts now that you've heard me spew about it? agree with you. What do you think, Jack? I think it's, I think any effort is better than no effort, but I don't think it's going to go through anyway, so it doesn't
+
+[10:45] really matter. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, it's like, I mean, like an effort would be to try and help somebody. This like, it's also, there's these undercurrents. It's like really, they're not aiming. They're not aiming this legislation at, you know, the, all the, the thin, uh,
+
+[11:01] rich, uh, um, people who go to the gym 8 times a day who live in the wealthier parts of New York.
+
+[11:08] be honest about it. That's not who they're facing at, right? Instead, they're trying yet another social legislation against poorer people who, you know, don't have that much
+
+[11:18] money, and they're basically assuming that these people, the only way we can help them is through
+
+[11:25] legislation, because clearly, you know, we're not reaching them any other way. In general, I detest any sort of social legislation directed at particular socioeconomic groups because it smacks to me of all the stuff that when we hear about it when it was legislated in the 1800s, and the
+
+[11:42] 1900s were like, damn, that was racist and crappy. Do you know what I'm saying? And now we look at it now. It's like, well, we're just trying to help them be more healthy, right? In 50 years, won't we not look back at it and say, damn, another, you know, another basic, uh, racist, uh, you know,
+
+[11:57] socioeconomic put down. You don't think so? But at least it got the conversation started, did it not? We're all talking about soda and portion size now. But you know, but look, portion size has been addressed by people like Marion Nessle for a long time. The question isn't, I mean, portion sizes have definitely gone up. The question is, why does the average lower middle class person in another country who still has the means to buy an absurd amount of soda if they wanted to,
+
+[12:23] right? Why is it that those people aren't buying huge sodas? Why is it that those people aren't getting fat and why is it that our people are, right? And it's a mental issue. It has, you know, like, it's like, oh, the portion size has got bigger as though it was an elephant that suddenly started growing
+
+[12:39] when in fact people are ordering the larger portion sizes. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, so to try and to try and staunch the the tide by saying, well, no, it's the soda that's it's the soda that's to blame. It's not the soda that's to blame. It's the fact that we're ordering larger sodas to blame. Burger King clearly is making money by selling larger sodas. And McDonald's is clearly making money by selling larger sodas, right? Which means that the way that we purchase things is demented. No? Well, one last thing. I had to go to Long Island to see some friends, and it was really late, and the only thing opened was Burger King. hadn't had it in a long time, right? So I pick a value meal and they said, do you want a medium or large? So I'm like, you know, the medium. And that medium drink was enormous. I couldn't even imagine what the large would be. Large is large. Right. You know what I mean, though? Like to sell a. could swim in the large. Yeah, to sell a 32 ounce medium drink. is just kind of ridiculous. should at least regulate that. Well, I mean, look, you don't have to drink the whole damn. only I, I'm the only person I know who feels obliged to finish everything I order, right? I mean, you're not obliged to, and 1st of all, unless you're with Nastasia, that 32 ounce cup has about 22 ounces of
+
+[13:46] ice in it. You know what I mean? That's very true. Do you order your drinks without ice? She says it's because she doesn't like the feeling of ice against her teeth. It's really because she's a psycho and wants every nickels worth. know her. She's cheap, just like I am. I really don't like ice. But you're using a freaking straw on it anyway. What does it matter if there's ice in it? Okay, call, listen, by the way, come beat me down on this. Beep, beep, beat the hell out of me on this. Call her. on the air. Hi, yeah, this is James Ray. Love the show. Listen to it every week. I have a question. I have a vacuum reduction rig that I set up. Um, I thought it would be less fussy or persnickety than a uh, roto vap system. Probably. It's been extremely persnickety. Um, It's, uh, I mean, basically I had to add a 20 gallon water reservoir to it to keep the water
+
+[14:39] cool. Whenever I get, you know, whenever I try to do something that's a little jammy, whenever it gets to a point where it could kind of get where I want it,
+
+[14:48] it starts bumping, even though I've got the pellet in there that's spinning. Um, So, do you have any advice that I could use and kind of reining this in? Is there a kind of a best practice that I'm missing out on here? All right, here's here's the here's the deal. One, uh, the, the, the things that you've noted are known, known actual things
+
+[15:09] that some of them are going to be very hard to get around. Um, it takes, if you just look at the numbers, right? The heat of fusion, which is what it takes for you
+
+[15:20] to when you're melting ice, right? When you're melting ice for cooling, you get the heat of fusion per grand back. The heat of vaporization's a much higher number. So to recondense water that you've boiled off, it takes an intensely larger amount of energy
+
+[15:37] than it does to melt the ice. I think it's on the order. It's on the order of 6 times. I forget the exact numbers, but it takes about 6 kilos of ice,
+
+[15:46] assuming like perfect efficiency to condense one liter of water. Well, actually, I've been able to, I've got kind of something like a wart chiller in
+
+[15:57] there and I've got it hooked up to another pump that is pumping water through
+
+[16:03] my, uh, my aspirator. So I've got, and I've got a high end. I've got the really kicked a butt aspirator. Um, so, but it's, but it's still kind of annoying, like the whole thing, like I said, very fussy. Like, I mean, I get every once in a while I get what I want out of it, but I kind of have to sit there and fiddle with
+
+[16:23] it. Well, how much how much ice do you have? stir on it that I got before that was digital, which was a huge mistake. Um, but yeah, so I, yeah. You're chilling your aspirated water though, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, like, because I set up a rig like that with a bunch of aspirators and a flow jet pump, which I might have talked about at one point, like, you know, early on in this
+
+[16:46] shit that I got. I stole off of a meth lab website, you know, so it's not kind of as nice as the built together aspirators, but kind of functions the same thing. And I tore through ice and that thing with the pumps, pour through it. Um, on bumping. Remember, you're gonna, like the magnetic stir rod will beat down bubbles after they happen, but the bumping is happening because there aren't any bubbles in
+
+[17:09] it. and you superheat it, and then all of a sudden a large bubble forms and creates a bump. So it's, it'll, it'll stop frothing, like the, the, the spinning thing will uh, stop frothing on your initial
+
+[17:21] boilout or it'll help, but it won't help with bumping. What you need to do to help with bumping is to install a very, very
+
+[17:29] fine, and you're going to, as you get more and more of syrup, you're going to need this. very, very, very, very fine tube down into the product with a needle
+
+[17:38] valve and let the minutest amount of air in to initiate bubbles in the product as you're making it.
+
+[17:48] And it's the tiniest, tiniest bleed of air. And it'll raise your temperature a little bit because you won't be able to suck as good of a vacuum as you would otherwise. And but it's gonna radically, it'll strip some flavor out of it, but you've already really reduced it quite a bit
+
+[18:03] anyway. So a lot of the volatiles are gone. But it's the only way to really prevent massive amounts of bumping. In fact, when you're doing hardcore reductions with of things like port wine, Madeira in a
+
+[18:16] roto app, or orange juice or apple juice or whatever, when you get down to the last stage in a
+
+[18:22] roto app, you're constantly needing to bleed small hits of air into the system to get it to boil again properly instead of like the, instead of the distillation dying out and then and then bumping.
+
+[18:35] So you don't even need to continuously let air in if you just have like a little thing you can go and let a small amount of air
+
+[18:42] in and it'll initiate some violent but non-bumping boiling after that
+
+[18:46] happens. And then once it settles down again, give it a small punch of air again, you'll initiate violent but non-bumping
+
+[18:53] boiling. And that's really the only effective way to get that last little bit of water out. Cool. Okay. Thanks a lot. Hey no problem. Tell us how it works. All right, I will. All right, cool. Thanks. All right. Well, I guess I spewed enough about the, uh, uh, about the, the soda ban, uh, whatnot. We could talk more about it later. Look, I encourage anyone to call and beat our faces in for this, but, you know, do it, do it. Anyway, let's go to break.
+
+[20:13] Hey, cell, sir. Been in my fridge so long. It seems that partial pressures made you taste all wrong. Hey, seltzer. Think I'll add a lemon. Make you taste much better. Why don't you ID that track for us, Dave? That is, that is, that is seltzer. A track that one of my college bands, Pluto did. I'm playing bass. That was 1990, I think, 1990 or 1991. So way back in the day when, you know, I was playing bass on a daily thing. But the concept of this is that you had a bottle of seltzer in your fridge, and you drank portion of it, and then you let it sit there, and it turned to crap,
+
+[20:51] and then you, it tastes horrible. Like semi-flat seltzer tastes horrible. And you think you're going to make it taste better by adding lemon. who am I fooling? Who am I fooling? This is horrible stuff. Hey, seltzer. Hey, seltzer. So clear and so cool. Now you taste worse than water. Anyway, that's how that's how the song goes. We could play that more eventually, right? Not today, but... Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it contains no curses, unlike some of my other songs. Uh, anyhow, so we're going to actually, Nostage, we're going to have to have another break later so we can play our tech serve song. Give me some tech serve song, Jack, just say tech serve song. Text serve song. Is that yours or someone else? Not a song. actually a commercial. and Joe did. It's uh, it's great. Yeah? It's awesome. You'll see. I'm looking forward to it Hi, all. Long time listener. Love the show. I'm experimenting with making my own sausages and would now like to know how much fat to add to a mixture and what type. First, I do not know how much fat is in the cut of meat I'm working with. I currently use beef chuck, but would like a way of testing any piece of meat. And second, how much fat should there be? I realize it's a taste issue, but how much would you use? And lastly, for religious reasons, I won't use pork. What type of fat is best to use to increase the total fat content? Thanks a lot. Justin in Israel. All right. Well, it is a matter of taste, but there's a lot more fat in sausage than you think. You want anywhere between, I think, 30% fat, total content, to 13rd fat, total
+
+[22:18] content, and sometimes even more, right? But that's the range you want to hit about 13rd fat. But you hit the nail on the head, Justin, when you said, it's very difficult to know how much fat is in a product. Now, I consulted my, uh, the professional charcuterie series by uh, Marcel
+
+[22:38] cotton so at all, which is this lunatic old French series with like these 3 lunatic old French dudes with the
+
+[22:44] tall, like rooster chicken head hats on, like on the front, like, you know, surrounded by plates and plates of meat with that weird half French smile.
+
+[22:51] You know what I'm talking about? That Frenchy half smile thing. Anyway, and, you know, they mainly are using pork, obviously, but they kind of reinforce what I was saying, which is you want about
+
+[23:04] 13rd fat in the mixture. Now, when you're making sausages, the important thing is the fat should be
+
+[23:10] hard, relatively hard because you don't want it to render into nothingness as the sausage is cooking.
+
+[23:18] That's why when you are using pork, If you're going to supplement the fat that you're using, you typically supplement
+
+[23:23] with back fat because back fat is hard. It grinds nicely. It doesn't have like a lot of cinners and you can get it in kind of big chunks. So that's kind of the cinequa non of sausage fats. In beef, um, I would probably for added beef fat. I would probably use, um, you know, the, like the kapa fat that's trimmed off of the outside of a rib standing rib, you know what I'm talking about? Like, I would use something like that that's pretty hard that's going to withstand kind of, you know, chopping and
+
+[23:53] cooking, and it also tastes good. Some people, I think, use kind of suet, which is the kidney fat, but it's kind of weird and dry and it renders actually quite well. So I wouldn't use something like that. I think I would stick to the type of fat that you would find on the cap of, let's say, a
+
+[24:09] rib roast or something similar. Now, I looked up, I found on the interwebs, that pork shoulders are approximately 75 to 25, and I think Chuck
+
+[24:21] roast, which is, I think what you said you were using. I can't remember, roughly similar. So I would supplement with a little bit of fat. If you're using like a really fatty kind of chuck, I would substitute a little
+
+[24:33] fat, but the classic, you know, Mid-East fat to use, especially in, you know, kind of Muslim
+
+[24:40] applications would be lamb. And in fact, they raise in the Middle East, which I would love to have access to have never tasted, special fatty lambs that have fat that is used to make delicious sausages and cured meats.
+
+[24:51] In fact, they have a fatty lamb with a fatty lamb tail, where they cure just this extremely fat tail and eat it almost like you would eat, I think, like a lardo. But I've never had it. So I can't really say anything about it. But I would definitely, I would add some fat to what you're using. Let me see what you said you were using again. Yeah, Chuck. So if you're getting really fatty Chuck, that's untrimmed. I mean, I don't really know of a test to test how much fat is in the meat
+
+[25:17] proper. I mean, I guess it's theoretic. Theoretically, you could weigh it and then do a volume situation, figure out the density, but the best thing to do is just look on the
+
+[25:26] interwebs and try and find what the fat content of that cut is. It's really also going to depend on the specific marbling content of the meat. So it's difficult. If anyone has a test, I'll try and look maybe during the week if I have time to figure out a good test and talk about next time. But I would substitute in a good, hard fat. If you have a nice fatty piece of truck. I would assume it's about 25% fat and you're going to want to add more to get it up to that 13rd number, right?
+
+[25:49] Or use lamb or duck fat, I think, works as well. I've made sausages with duck fat because duck fat can be pretty hard sometimes if you get the good part. What do you think, Stas? a good answer? Good. All right. All right, Justin, good luck with that. Give us a holler back. Uh, okay. Mike writes in, greetings from Taiwan. Love the show. Whenever I download a new episode is like an old friend coming to visit. Thanks for all your hard work. That's nice, right? Here's my question. I am a spice freak. I traveled a bit through Malaysia and Sri Lanka, lucky. and always head to the spice markets to see what's available. The quality and variety are incredible. I inevitably fill half of my suitcase with spices, and then I'm left wondering how to best keep them in my Taiwanese apartment. Should I keep them chilled in the freezer or refrigerator or will condensation affect the spices much like it does coffee? I already know that buying whole and grinding to order will help maintain quality, and increase in longevity of product, but would welcome any other advice. Okay, look. Like everything else in the world, everything depends. Um, things like leaves. Spices that are leaves, fresh leaves, right? You can freeze them, but the problem is, is that when you freeze them and thaw them, they're usually damaged by the thaw procedure, and then enzymes
+
+[26:59] in leaves, break them and turn brown. This is why, like, tender leaf herbs are very, not very good when they're frozen. So those typically, even though they're not the same as fresh, are going to be best kind of lightly dried. Once they're lightly dried, the enzymes aren't going to work anymore, then you can freeze them. Any case, the problem with coffee, coffee is very, like a dry, dry good. going to be ruined, especially due to the kind of the brewing process and what goes on by water and condensation. So you definitely don't want to have coffee go in and out of the freezer because condensation will form. If you are going to do this on an extended basis, purchase a vacuum
+
+[27:33] machine, and even a home vacuum machine is going to be good for this kind of thing. vacuum the products down so there's not a lot of external moisture in it or oxygen. And then when you freeze it, you're going to have less damage due to
+
+[27:45] freeze saw cycles in your freezer. The main problem with keeping things in the freezer in terms of quality is freestyle, freestyle, freestyle, freeestyle, right? And so I would say that long-term storage, I mean, I have to buy a lot of my leaf spices, like curry leaf and things like
+
+[28:00] that, frozen here in New York because that's the only way they come in, or Kiefer lime leaves. I buy them frozen because that's the only way I can get them. And you too can store your products that way. If you need to, I would recommend vacuum packing and getting all of the air out. Even if you're going to store them on a shelf, vacuum packing once, even though that vacuum pack is going to get rid of a little bit of the
+
+[28:21] aroma, is going to be a good long-term storage procedure because you're not going to have any spices that might be damaged by oxidation or anything like that,
+
+[28:29] which's going to keep them more intact fridge. generally not. Meh, meh, fridge. Meh. What do you think, Stas? Yeah, bridge. Because like stuff can grow in the fridge. If there's water in it, I wouldn't store it in the fridge if there's not one. you know, it's like, eh, you know? No? Anyway. I hope that helps, Mike. Let us know. let us know what you got. And, you know, and I generally don't like the home vacuum
+
+[28:51] machines. But I think for that kind of thing, it's probably adequate. This is my feeling. Someone call me and tell me I'm an idiot. You know, I usually am, right? Uh, Michael Napkin from Herbivores, uh, wrote in and said, uh, I've got a question for you guys making cultured butter at uh,
+
+[29:08] a terra in New York City. Matt Leitner served a washed rind cheese cultured butter. I figured out how to make it at home. It's easy enough. I take one pint, 467 grams of good organic cream, 25 grams of
+
+[29:20] Orion from a funky cheese. I use Calgirl creamery, Red Hawk. Fancy. Expensive. Mix, let's stand room temp till it thickens and the cream tastes funky. Took about 14 hours for me, refrigerate overnight. You actually, and it's important to refrigerate overnight. When you're churning cultured butter, If it's warm, it just, it's a freaking nightmare, getting, making butter out of it, just so you guys know. Churn, drain, need, rinse, voila. I would not I would not rinse it. I don't know why you're, uh, I love the taste of the way in, uh, you know, the buttermilk that's in, uh, butter. So like when I'm making my butter, I usually under, I usually underneath it and I usually don't rinse it at all. I'll need it in the thing and then squeeze out just enough to keep it and I love the taste of it. It will not keep as long. And it's not good for cooking at that point because it's not good for cooking because it's got more water content in it, but as something you're going to spread on
+
+[30:11] bread. I love it with a little bit of the extra buttermilk left in. So I wouldn't overneed it, and I wouldn't rinse it. This is my feeling. But that's not his question. His question is, how do I know this is safe? I'm eating it. It tastes great, and it seems fine to me, but I'm a little leery about serving it to other folks, since I don't really have the knowledge to say that leaving the cream out for 14 hours is
+
+[30:29] okay. Of course, people do it making crème fraiche as well, but is it safe? PS, I took Dave's advice on hitting up Corinne, our knife friends, you know, salary son, for a carbon steel knife, and the
+
+[30:39] DMT two-sided diamond sharpening stone, took a chance on a 7030 bevel, and I'm not finding it too hard to sharpen accurately, though agreed it is more challenging than a traditional Western or a traditional Japanese knife. I'm loving both the knife and the stone and it's easier to have a razor sharp edge every day with this setup. Well, thanks. That's very nice. Okay, so the wash rind cheese is typically the ones I looked up, use a bacteria called brevi bacterium linens. So if that's going to culture it, if that's going to be what's culturing the buttermilk, right? Typically, that's not what you would have to culture cream, you would use a lactobacillus would be in there to culture cream. Hopefully you're also getting a lactobacillus in there. I looked up, uh, you know, I looked up the kind of the characteristics of wash wine, cheese, rind cheeses, and the brevy bacterium linens as typically has a lower acid, i.e. a higher pH than normally cheeses would of that of that type,
+
+[31:31] uh, without that bacteria. So you're talking about a higher pH situation. In cultured buttermilk, or in cultured cream rather that you're going to turn into butter, the safety the safety of it is because of the acidity that's being caused by the lactic acid bacteria as it cultures.
+
+[31:49] I looked up some studies in general and what you want to make sure that nothing is going to be bad, is that you want the Ph to go lower than 4.6 within about 6 hours, which is the limit for toxins from staff stuff to start growing in it.
+
+[32:10] I wasn't able to find whether or not the brevet bacterium linens has its own sort of way of killing things like staff or listeria or
+
+[32:21] E. coli or things of this nature. I mean, I wouldn't freak out over it. You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't flip my lid over it. I'm going to try to. Harold McGee has researched all this stuff. I need to talk to him anyway to see whether or not we're going to go taste mangoes again this year. Uh, but I'm going to try to remember to hit him up on that because it's very, uh, it's very interesting uh, question. Anyway, so apparently I don't I don't know that much about it. Right? Sorry about that. Okay. Paul Peterson writes in and says, do I have any thoughts on patented cuts of meat? And he's talking patented cuts of meat and he's talking about the Vegas strip steak. So why don't we take a break and we'll come back and talk about the Vegas strip steak? 718-4972128 That 718-497-2128. Man, I need a new computer. I guess I'm gonna have to go to the Apple Store. What? Don't go to the Apple Store. Go to tech serve. What's tech, sir? I thought Apple Store was the only choice. No, you're crazy. Tech Serve is so much better than the Apple Store. They're New York's original and still the best Apple computer, iPod, and iPhone store, and repair shop. Plus, the store is really cool. You gotta go check it out. They're located at 119 West 23rd Street. Well, that settles it. I'm headed to TechServe. Tech Serve is a proud sponsor of heritageradionetwork.org for more information, visit techserve.com. That's T-E-K-S-E-R-V-E.com. What? Go to Texer. I love that. Give me some what? What? There you go. There you go. Nice. Nice. Strong, strong. Okay. And we're remiss. Acephalopod on Twitter asked us about 8000000 times and is getting irritated with us for recommendations in Tokyo.
+
+[34:02] Now, listen, the sad truth is, is that Nastasia and I didn't get to eat out as
+
+[34:08] much who you really want to talk to is Mark Ladner because he spent every day eating out. Now, those of you that read the blog. Oh, by the way, there'll be a new blog post up as soon as this is over, I'm just waiting for the YouTube video to load up on Ikigime. And I know I said I wasn't going to write super long posts anymore, but it's a long freaking post on Ikigime. couldn't freaking help myself. Anyway, I couldn't help it. So it's coming up as soon as maybe during lunch I can get it up. anyway. So those of you that read the blog know that Nastasia and Mark Ladner and I went to Jiro's
+
+[34:36] sushi, and it was good, but I wouldn't spend the 350 on it. What about you, Stas? Yeah. Yeah. Mark, on the other hand, the next day went to Sushi Sawada and said it was the best sushi he's ever had in his whole freaking life, true or false.
+
+[34:47] Because I wasn't there. Well, there's that. I mean, so yes. So it was even better because you weren't there, but he said that regardless of the company that it was the best sushi you'd ever had, right? Right. Right. Um, uh, what did you think of the sushi place at the at the skiji market, the Iwashi place? I thought it was good. I thought was really good. It's a good place. Also fairly well known that you could see that on our blog, actually, and there's a couple comments on the cooking issues, saying where that restaurant is. This is sad, and Mark agreed with me too. And normally, it's hard. I don't want to recommend because there are friends and everything, but the Japanese, traditional Japanese restaurant, the Park Hyatt, was pretty good. I ate there twice. I thought it was really good. And Mark Ladner from Del Posto loved it, right? And you don't normally think of like, you know, Park Hyatt having like a really great, especially Japanese, and it was really good. I thought it was really, what was the name of it? Cocaway or something like that? No, I don't remember. Look it up. Let's see if we can look it up in time. Um, uh, you know, I highly recommend going to Sakiji in general and just like checking out all the stalls around it and
+
+[35:47] uh, just getting little bites bites to eat, buying fruit, if you have the money, if you have the freaking money to buy fruit at Sakiji. Um, and what else did we eat while we were there that was really, I mean, go to go to the chef's district
+
+[35:59] street if you're a cook, right? What else? Anything? Oh, we went to Marantasan's Kaiseki restaurant. The Tokyo version of it. And I spoke to Dave Chang about it. He's like, ah, crap on the Tokyo version. He doesn't give a crap about Tokyo. You have to go to the one in Kyoto. But the presentation was great in the one in Tokyo, but, you know, I don't, anyway, those are my thoughts. Sorry I'm so late in giving you that information. Okay. Nastasia, Dave, and Jack. I have an odd question. While I was calibrating my circulator, I instinctively changed it to Celsius. Then I thought about it more. Generally, recipes are metric because they're easier to scale, better to control, more accurate, right? But from 0 to 100 degree C, right, to the 10th because most circulators are accurate to the 10th, there would be 1000 gradations. And from 32.0 degrees Fahrenheit to 212 degrees Fahrenheit, there would be 1800 gradations, meaning a higher degree of accuracy.
+
+[36:48] I switched it regardless because most of the info out there is in Celsius slash metric, but for some reason, it seems that imperial measurement might be better in this instance. Am I crazy? Is it so little of a difference, it is easier to keep it metric because everything else is in the kitchen? By the way, the homemade circulator I have is running great. Thanks for the great podcast, and then you cut off who wrote it. don't have who wrote it. Anyway, we'll get it. So here's the thing. No, you are not crazy. The Fahrenheit, and I've said this a long time, is a, like, it's a finer gradation. This is why when I'm talking about the temperature outside. I always talk in Fahrenheit because, you know, like, oh, it's 20 degrees out. It's great. What? It doesn't make any sense. Like Celsius degrees don't make any sense to me for the climate. Like, I like a climate where, like, you know, like 0 is really, really, really, really cold, and like a 100 is really, really hot, and 120 is really, really hot, and -20 is really, really, really, really cold, but all those things happen. That, like a wide range. For climate, I use Fahrenheit. For deep frying, I use Fahrenheit. For baking, I use Fahrenheit, right? Because 375, it's beaten into my head like nobody's business. You know what I mean? But for sous vide work, I use Celsius. So I myself am of 2 minds. The Celsius, scaling in temperature doesn't make a
+
+[38:05] difference, and there's no reason why freezing is better thought of as 0 versus
+
+[38:10] 32. And there's no reason that boiling is better being thought of as 100 versus 212. There's simply no reason. There's no better or worse with the scales and there are more gradations without using tenths. when you're talking about degrees in Fahrenheit. So, you know, it's really, you know, it's it's your choice, and I use them both. Unlike
+
+[38:32] decimal systems for scaling, there is no advantage to Celsius. There's no inherent advantage to a Celsius degree, except in keeping it consistent. And if you're doing conversions back and forth using formula, for instance, if you're doing
+
+[38:47] like ideal gas law computations or things like this, it's helpful to use Celsius because it scales to
+
+[38:51] Kelvin, and then Kelvin can be used in ideal gas laws and stuff. But if you're not doing that kind of stuff, it really doesn't make, you know, an iota of difference. Right? chip. Hey, Chip, that's my thoughts. Okay, so before we leave, because Jack's going to make us leave very soon,
+
+[39:09] uh, giving a shout out because a listener wrote in, uh, Sarah Valentine from Brooklyn, but not from Bushwick, so probably not maybe not a hipster,
+
+[39:19] right? Anyway, she wrote in saying that, wow, nuts. Well, there's also the Williamsburg hips. A bushwick hipster or Williamsburg hipster? Williamsburg. Whoa! Where do you live, Jack? Okay. Uh, so, um, Sarah Valentine writes in, friends with our, uh, you know, our longtime listener
+
+[39:41] buddy, Ken Engber, and, uh, Ken has gotten her and her husband into sous vide cooking. They bought the and low temperature cooking, bought the under pressure. Maybe Sunday they'll buy, we pop soupy pots, circulator. But, uh, here we go, Sid wants us to give a shout out, and this is our 1st actual shout out like this, right? A shout out for Ken Ingbur's birthday on July 2nd before our next show. So this is Ken Ingbur's birthday shout out from cooking issues. See you next week.
+
+[40:20] Thanks for listening to this program on the Heritage radio network. You can find all of our archived programs on Heritage Radio Network.com, as well as a schedule of upcoming live shows. You can also podcast all of our programs on iTunes by searching Heritage
+
+[40:39] Radio Network in the iTunes store. You can find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for
+
+[40:45] up-to-date news and information. Thanks for listening. All twisted. I guess can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by our friends at the International Culinary Center. For more information, visit www.internationalculinarycenter.com. Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. You listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org.
+
+[0:20] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're a host of Cooking Issues coming to you live at Roberta's Pizzeria every Tuesday from roughly 12, the roughly 1245 on the
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+[0:31] HeritageRadio Network.org, Jack.org. Oh, man. Join, as always, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, keeping the cooking issues machine running, Jack. And of course, today we have a special guest, special guest producer, Aaron Marks, who bid for this guest producing spot at the last museum of
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+[0:54] food and drink fundraiser that we had, right? Right? Now, you know, Aaron's actually working on an interesting food related project right now, which I'm going to let him talk about in a second. But remember, call in your questions two. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Now, Aaron, aside from bidding on this great thing and being with us today, was a long time ago, not that long, I guess, a member of my
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+[1:19] favorite Great Satan, which is the Goldman Sachs, which I've always had actually a soft spot
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+[1:24] for Stranger, because I love history of finance is a great thing. He's not doing that anymore. He is, in fact, working on a project called deconstructing dinner. You want to talk about that? And maybe about the Great Satan? Because I love those guys. Oh, we'll leave my past out of it. It doesn't really sit well with a lot of people, but I have turned my passions towards
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+[1:41] my hobbies, really, which is food in restaurants. So we are produced a documentary called Deconstructing Dinner on the farm to table movement. really to educate people on the origins of food. Really kind of the twist here is that we focus on individual staple ingredients. We've been filming with a couple really excellent chefs. Michael Anthony last week, Heather Carlucci in New York. We did the pilot with Michael Statlander on pork up in Toronto. He has a beautiful farm up there. And to supplement all the these great miniseries. We have some web episodes and a lot of extra bonus material that
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+[2:17] lengthies award-winning chefs in. So we're really excited for it. We were in the process of fundraising at the moment. We need about $60,000 by July 20th. You can check us out on a Kickstarter campaign. We just passed a 100 backers online. So we're doing well. It's deconstructing dinner on Kickstarter. And you've already filmed one of the last time I spoke with you was what you were working on 8 or 9 episodes. Yeah, we've we're focused on 6 at the moment. We have each of them is going to be garlic or wheat or eggs. We just did a shot on honey in a farm outside of New York. Um, and uh, March 2013, spring 2013 is when we hope we have a finished product. Right, and you're, is Declan the director of the producer both? Declan O'Driscoll is, Declan O'Driscoll and John Steiner, the 22 folks that I'm partnering with on this. Declan is the filmmaker behind this. He won a James Beard Award last year for his documentary called Milk War, which was about
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+[3:16] raw milk, very fascinating story. And John Steinman is kind of a, I guess I referred to him as the Mark Bittman of Canada. He's so well versed in the farm to table movement. Uh, and he, he, uh, he does a lot of speech, he goes around speaking about it. So he actually had a radio show by the same name, deconstructing dinner, and this is the reincarnation onto the screen. Nice. So go to Kickstarter and go look at deconstructing dinner on Kickstarter. Exactly. or just go to deconstructingdinner.com. All right, nice. All right, very good. All right. So, uh, and uh, Aaron also brought me, I was been, we were talking last time we were talking about uh, Michael Lewis, the uh, the financial writer,
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+[3:55] and uh, he just brought me a copy of the big short to read. I actually read his later book, Boomerang, which if any of you guys aren't interested in kind of financial history, I'm not interested in finances at all. I really could give a rat's behind about my own finances. Otherwise, I guess we'd be rich, right? But anyway, but I don't really care about it, but I love, I love myself some financial history and I sadly have been, you know, lacking in recent financial history until, um, Maria Garnischelli, our publisher, for, you know, uh,
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+[4:23] for my cocktail book and coming up, gave me a Michael Lewis book and uh, now Aaron, you know, brought me the other one. So hopefully I'm going to be up to date with our current financial woes and the amusing history behind it.
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+[4:32] very soon, right? Yeah, well, Michael Lewis is a great writer. Anyway, okay. Now, on 2 questions. By the way, this one in from Pete actually gave a call out to Indie Jesus, but I'd like our readers to know listeners to know that I have not seen Indie Jesus in a long time. Jack, have you seen Indie Jesus? I see him. I don't think he's working this shift anymore, but I have to say, really nice guy. Yeah, but does he not work the shift because of his hatred for us? I mean, I guess it's possible, but I would guess not. No? I mean, Jesus probably shouldn't have any hatred in it. There are plenty of other interesting characters around, though. We just need to coin a name for somebody. All right. Well, for those of you that, you know, have never heard, Indie Jesus is a waiter here who is looks like Jesus in kind of indie rock clothes and I miss him. I miss seeing Indie Jesus during the during the broadcast. I think he made our broadcast better just by his presence. true. Yeah? We didn't we have a mansion Jesus for a while? There are plenty of mans in Jesus. Oh, that was at a coffee event. That was a different. Manson Jesus was at a different event. Sorry. Okay. Okay, love the podcast. been blitzing through your back catalog quickly as I just discovered it recently. Keep up the great work and thank you. Thank you. Question. I recently purchased a combi steam oven. I wanted a small oven for day-to-day stuff, and I love to bake bread, and there's nothing that compares to steam from making that amazing crust. The oven does a great job with things like soft boiled eggs and large quantities and steam face, et cetera. And it's very precise temperature controls, which got me thinking I could use this bad boy for low temp cooking and sous vide. And I would love to get your thoughts, Pete. Okay, um, okay, look, I don't know, you got to write in and tell me what brand of combi oven you have. The smaller ones, there used to be one made by Electrolux that kind of fit on a counter that was maybe microwave size or a little bit bigger. And, uh, of course, Gaganau makes one that's fantastically expensive if you can afford Gaganau appliances in your home. God bless. Um, but, um, combi Steve oven for those of you that don't know is an oven that uses a combination of steam technology and convection
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+[6:23] technology, and recently have been used in restaurants to do uh, low temperature cooking because they have very accurate temperature controls.
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+[6:30] And the reason they have accurate temperature controls is because they need accuracy to be able to achieve the results that they want to achieve without any sort of human intervention. And the byproduct
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+[6:39] is, is that we get to use it for very accurate, low temperature work, typically by setting the temperature of the oven below the boiling point well below, you know, down
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+[6:49] to like, you know, 55 Celsius thereabouts and 100% humidity, which gives good thermal transfer. Now, commercial combi ovens are in the, on average, the higher end ones, rationale being one
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+[7:04] and um, uh, electrolux being another, and there's, you know, several others. On average, they are fairly accurate. But at any given second, their temperature can fluctuate quite a bit, and it's because they inject steam into the cavity, which shoots the temperature up, then the temperature goes down, they shoot more
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+[7:22] steam, it goes up, up, up, up, up. So, um, the answer is for very thin items, it does not work very well for low temperature cooking because those thin items can't handle the short-term over temp that you go through as the temperature porpoises back and
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+[7:36] forth. Thicker items can withstand that. So, because the temperature of, you know, modernist cuisine, Chris Young, who was on the
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+[7:43] show and Nathan Mirvold said the same thing in Maxine Belay when they were here, all, you know, talked about this very interesting data that they had, which was they actually measured the temperature of combi ovens using many kind of high
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+[7:53] accuracy, temperature probes, and showed that there was, when I say wide, I'm talking like 10s of degrees variation from 2nd to 2nd based on the internal temperature of the cavity.
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+[8:03] Now, how can you test this? Set your oven to 100% steam, set the temperature to some temperature well below boiling.
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+[8:11] And then test it with something simple, like an egg. If you stick an egg in there. And after an hour, the at 62 Celsius. And after an hour, the yolk is still runny, but
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+[8:25] it cracks out of the egg and has kind of a, the white has a very kind of, you know, custardy texture, I think, then that's a good 62 egg, you're pretty much good.
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+[8:34] If you then set it to 63, go for an
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+[8:38] hour, and it's got a very creamy yolk, but it's all one texture, very creamy like a sauce almost. then you've produced an accurate 63 degree egg. If you go to 64 degrees, and your yolk is just set, just set, but still very, very soft. You have a very accurate 64 degree egg on a large egg. And these are extremely simple and extremely accurate and reliable temperature tests for
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+[9:01] your combi to see whether or not you are getting the actual temperatures that you think you are getting. If those 3 numbers come out right, then you're good. You know what I mean? And in fact, if your oven is repeatedly wrong,
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+[9:15] right, you can dial up or down a degree or 2 and figure out what your thing is actually set to. So if what I tell you is a 63 degree egg actually happens at 65? Well, your oven's about 2 degrees hot, uh, in terms of the way that it works, as long as the humidity is 100%. Irv Atis made a huge error. Uh, you know, those, those who know me, know I'm no fan of Ervetis. You know, this is a well-known fact, I'm no fan of him or his writing or his demagoguery, but he believes that a 65
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+[9:46] degree Celsius egg is still runny, and he did all of his tests in an oven.
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+[9:51] And the reason his, um, the reason his numbers are completely wrong is because they weren't done in
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+[9:56] 100% humidity environment. And they were actually steam moisture was evaporating out of the egg during the process, thereby lowering the temperature of
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+[10:06] the inside of the egg through evaporative cooling. And because there was evaporative cooling. The inside of the egg was roughly 3 degrees are so lower than the actual oven temperature was, even though he was fairly accurately controlling his oven temperature. Just goes to show what happened when you don't really think about what you're doing, Erve. Anyway, enough bashing on Irve, that answers that question, yeah? Yeah? Yeah, okay. It presupposes that all eggs are the same, yeah. Well, all large chicken eggs act, I mean, I'm talking, this isn't just,
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+[10:37] um, this isn't like one or 2 eggs I've cooked. Like for the past, you know, 7 years, I've been cooking bazillion eggs as part of a teaching, you know, as part of teaching over the
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+[10:49] years. And in the restaurant, at the French culinary and at home. And I can pretty much tell whether or not equipment is right by how a large chicken egg is cooked in terms of time. Uh, you know, other eggs might be slightly different, but the major ones, for instance, like some people have
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+[11:06] reported like slightly different temperatures and things like duck. I don't have any experience on ostrich eggs or things like that, although I have friends that do. Uh, but they're pretty accurate, reliable measures of, um, of
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+[11:18] temperature, you know, at least that's been, that's been my experience, and they're incredibly cheap. And they're much easier to implement than trying to rig actual accurate
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+[11:28] thermometers in your in your oven. I mean, it's possible to rig an accurate thermometer, but you have to get a good rig. And, you know, on top of that, you have to, I mean, you can just go to a supermarket and buy a bunch of eggs. Set the sucker at 63. What I would really set it at 63 Celsius, right? And then see whether the egg is set or whether it's runny or whether it's
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+[11:49] creamy. If it's creamy, you're dead on, right? If it's runny, then your oven is low. And if it's set, then your oven is high, assuming you have 100% humidity in that oven. There's another assumption that you gotta make. And then later on, if you want to get accurate thermocouples, you can test it and see what's going on, blah, blah, blah. But the reason I chose an egg is an egg is fairly thick. It takes a good, it takes a good hour for the very center of an egg to get within a half a degree or so of the temperature
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+[12:16] of in a water bath, that is. So if you have a 10 minute fluctuation and temperature in your oven. An egg should be thick enough that most of that temperature fluctuation is taken up by the egg white and not by the egg yolk. And so you shouldn't get any over or under temp effects in the yolk after an hour of cooking because it should have evened out by then. That's why a good choice, cutlet, not so much. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway. okay. What did you say, Jack? You say something? No, I didn't. Yeah? Should we go to our 1st commercial break? Yeah. Commercial break. Come back. cooking issues. If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom. That's why the French culinary institute has evolved into the international culinary center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills, you come to understand and to feel the whole culinary world. You have to network. You have to observe the true meaning of world-class performance. You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the International Culinary Center's campuses in New York, California and Italy, we will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at a very high speed.
+
+[13:24] The international culinary center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking, to Italian, wine, management, culinary technology, and food writing. For more information, visit international culinarycenter.com.
+
+[13:47] Bye.
+
+[14:11] Welcome back to Cooking Issues. You're listening to Propeller by Bluto. Wow, you're pulling out all the old all the old Pluto songs from the college days. Oh yeah. That song, I can remember playing that song wearing a flight helmet with a blast shield down with my fingers like
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+[14:29] spring blood out of the base and the lead singer smashing me on the head with a microphone and that was the 90s, the early
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+[14:36] 90s. Good times. Good times. Anyway, we should probably see whether or not listeners mind being assaulted with my old college
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+[14:44] band because we could just move to, you know, Jack's music. Anyway, 2nd question in. I'm fermenting 2 types of vinegar in my basement now. The 1st is a beer, barley, malt, syrup, vanilla, vinegar, and the other is a bourbon buckwheat, honey, caraway seed vinegar. I'm using the method from ideasinfood.com with the live culture vinegar as a starter that is added to the alcohol mixture. The beer version was complete after 3 weeks, and the bourbon is already on week five. How long should I wait for the bourbon version before I start over? I'm thinking the alcohol content was too high for fermentation? Any thoughts? Elliot Papineau. Okay. Uh, I look for, uh, you know, our good friend's ideas and food, Alex Naki. I looked on their website for their vinegar method and wasn't able to find any explicit instructions on their website proper, but they did publish
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+[15:29] an article on it in popular science. Are they still running for popular science? Does anyone know? I don't know. But anyway, I looked at their popular science article on it and, in fact, found a maple syrup, a maple
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+[15:45] syrup. What's the word I'm looking for? Maple syrup, rum, vinegar based that they made their vinegar out of. And so I'm assuming, Elliot, that you're basing it on that technique. Here's what I'm thinking. There's a couple of things that can go wrong in vinegar. So vinegar, for those of you that have no idea how vinegar is made. You take a fairly low concentration of alcohol
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+[16:07] product. And then acetobactor acts on the alcohol and converts the ethanol to vinegar.
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+[16:16] Now, uh, in the ideas in food uh, recipe, they use 950 grams of maple syrup, which is a lot of freaking maple syrup, because it's, they use 950 grams of maple syrup, 800 grams of what they call a live vinegar, which is
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+[16:30] vinegar that has currently has active acetobactor in it, right? So assuming you're already making vinegar, you have some vinegar sitting around that's still live, still as active as cetobactor in it. 300 grams of dark rum and 200 grams of water. If you calculate this all out, and I calculated it based on the assumption that the maple syrup was about 80
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+[16:51] bricks, meaning 80% sugar and about 20% water, you're going to end up with an
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+[16:57] alcohol, a water vinegar slash ethanol mix that's roughly
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+[17:01] 11% alcohol. I think. I got to go look at my calculations again. I did it on Excel this morning, but I think it's roughly 11% alcohol, which is a good number, maybe even lower. Maybe it's like eight. I forget. But it's a good number for acetobactor to work on. I was a little concerned with this, that the, because the bricks of this mixture is like 30%. It's very high bricks. that breaks meaning bricks is the percent of the weight of your product that is sugar.
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+[17:29] That's what bricks means. And if you do the calculations, I think this mixture that ideas
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+[17:34] in food has ends up about 30 bricks. There's good news and there's bad news with that. I mean, high bricks things usually tend to inhibit the action of bacteria because they really mess with what's called
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+[17:44] osmo regulation, the ability for the cells to keep water, their water
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+[17:49] balance proper. But balsamic vinegar is made with musts that are even higher bricks in this. So clearly acetobactor can work in these environments. You are probably. And this is a good thing. If you want to keep the sugar in it, if you want it to stay very sugary, the high sugar level and the massive acidity from the
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+[18:09] pre-made vinegar is almost surely inhibiting the inhibiting any further yeast
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+[18:16] activity. Basically, as soon as soon as the acidity gets higher than about a percent or so, especially
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+[18:23] with a lot, the use is going to have a tough time anyway with 30% bricks, really tough time.
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+[18:29] And, you know, you'd need special yeast anyway that we're very sugar tolerant to be able to go up that high. And, um, and then within combination with that, with the fact that they're already using vinegar, yeast is not going to be a problem in this mixture.
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+[18:41] So it should work. So your problems are probably you went too high in the alcohol and the acetobactor can't work, in which case, diluted some more and throw some fresh vinegar mother in. You can order, you know, acetobactric cultures and off of the internets. Two, you could have, although it doesn't sound like your ingredients in there, like you have any preservatives, they're going to cause a problem
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+[19:00] like or like chlorine can be problems sometimes or whether you have sulfides because you're not adding a sulfide wine to it. So that's probably not a problem. You could have a problem with not enough oxygen contact if your vessel's not proper or if it's sealed too hard or if you, because acetobactor needs oxygen to live. So any one of these things can be a problem. If you want to read more about vinegar, the book, like the book is Vinegars of the World, by
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+[19:22] Lisa edited by Lisa Asolieri and Paolo Judici, from 2009, fantastical book, and they have sections on almost any kind of vinegar that you could
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+[19:33] want. But you should take a look at that one, right? That makes sense? Or you started with some dead vinegar, too. That's the other thing, right? I would just look, if you don't already have a lot of vinegar lying around, Just buy some freaking culture. Don't worry about trying to like go buy apple cider vinegar from a natural health food store and hope that
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+[19:51] it works. I've had this problem when culturing buttermilk, trying to make cultured butter, and you buy certain strains of certain things, even if they're not pasteurized, and it turns out that they're bacteriologically dead because they've been around a long time and the bacteria haven't survived enough for things to
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+[20:06] happen. So, uh, I mean, eventually you can, you know, do things based on wild cultures or just luck and hope and prayer, but, you know, at the outset, if you want to make sure your results are good and your recipe is good, just start with
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+[20:17] a purchase culture. It, not that hard to get a hold of and it's fairly easy. That's my a suggestion. Okay, uh, Tristan in Virginia writes in, Hey, everyone. I'm tenderizing pork shoulder and my home pressure cooker and many recommendations. I've seen online recommend the natural release method of pressure instead of quick releasing, citing a few
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+[20:34] manufacturers websites and mainly Lorna Sass, an author of a pressure cooking cookbook. SAS strongly recommends natural release for meat, especially beef, claiming the fibers will be more tender. Why would a slower ramp down in pressure affect the meat fibers and why would beef behave more differently from pork or any other meat, assuming a similar leanness and connective tissue?
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+[20:52] Thanks from Tristan. Pressure cooking and natural release. Okay, so for those of you who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, pressure cookers, you seal your object in a pressure cooker, you heat it. By sealing it, you allow a pressure to build up, that increases your temperature, which things cook. things cook faster. They also cook differently. So an egg white, an egg, whole egg cooked in a pressure cooker turns brown because at the elevated temperatures in a pressure cooker, roughly 259 degrees Fahrenheit for 15 PSI
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+[21:21] overpressure, boiling, assuming straight water, that is. Egg whites will turn brown in an hour due to myard reactions at the slightly elevated temperatures inside of a pressure cooker. things like garlic. You destroy their pungency. We've talked about this before. I love pressure cookers. I love me some pressure cookers, but I also almost always recommend a natural release. And what that means is when you have a pressure cooker at 15 PSI and you turn off the heat, it's going to keep on cooking for a while. That's just simply all there is to it. This is one of the good things about a pressure cooker, by the way, is that they take very, once you get them hot, it takes a very, very low input of energy to keep them cooking because they're
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+[21:57] sealed. They don't throw a lot of heat on from the atmosphere. So in the summertime, even though you don't necessarily want to eat a lot of braises and stews in the
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+[22:03] summertime, it's an extremely efficient way to not heat up your house and do cooking, right? It's also uses a very low amount of energy for the amount of cooking you can do in it. And so it's great all around. But, uh, now you're stuck with a pot. going to keep cooking. So there's usually there's some way to open the pot to the atmosphere and steam rockets out of it,
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+[22:24] right? That's the quick release, and even quicker sometimes release is to plunge the pot into cold water, which, you know, instantly lowers the
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+[22:31] pressure, sometimes even faster than releasing the steam. Or you just let it sit and let the pressure come down naturally as it cools, the pressure will come down. As soon as it gets below 212 degrees on the inside, there will be no more pressure on the vessel and you can open it up with no problem. Now, I think you are absolutely correct, Tristan, in
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+[22:49] that I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference, whether it's beef, pork, chicken, fish or whatever. I think you should almost always use natural release on anything that's delicate at
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+[22:58] all. Because what happens is, when you are, when you release the pressure very suddenly, the water on the inside and outside and everywhere tends to violently boil.
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+[23:10] And what it does is rip things apart. And so the easiest thing to see it on is, uh, like if you pressure cook an egg and you open it very, very quickly, uh, by
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+[23:18] opening, you'll, you can blow the egg up. You know what I mean? Not violently, like microwave blowing up is violent, but you'll crack the eggs open. If you've ever pressure cooked, a can of evaporated, sweetened condensed milk rather to make dulce de leche. You'll know that unless you let the can heat cool down quite a bit, when you open it, it'll squirt product everywhere because all of a sudden the pressure is
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+[23:38] released. Beans tend to explode it if they're if they're released too suddenly. And the texture of meats can be very highly affected by violent, sudden release. So I, unless you know that your product is like really rough and tough and can handle the abuse of interior
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+[23:55] boiling or unless you actually want to shred something apart by interior boiling. I almost always recommend natural release on a pressure cooker instead of allowing it to
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+[24:05] vent to the atmosphere. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but often often it does. You do any pressure cooking, Aaron? I don't do much cooking at all actually. I grew up in New York, so my kitchen was about the size of most people's closets. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You know, cooking in New York, a lot of people have problems cooking in New York. There's size and also ventilation is a big issue. Everyone's apartment in New York is horribly ventilated for cooking. So anytime you actually do try and cook, you end up making the
+
+[24:30] entire, and then everyone's like, oh, it smells the food. but oil caked all over your ceiling is never pleasant. We have a column from the studio if it's okay. This is Patrick Martin's, by the way. He's like, what's up? I'm born and raised in New York City and I've lived in some, you know, apartments, very, very small kitchens. I will say this. It forces one to become better at very minimal ingredients,
+
+[24:53] like, for instance, cook, or, you know, techniques, like cooking perfectly medium rare, you know, because you don't really have the luxury of space to be braising and have like a Julia Child kitchen with stuff all over the place, but you do know how not to overcook a
+
+[25:07] chicken because it's you alone without that thing and a pot of vegetables, you know? I think braising is fairly spaceship efficient though, no? Like one pot braising? Um, no, no, well, I don't know. You know what I mean? It's just like all these recipes. Everyone comes to the heritage meat shop. Hey, give me a Boston butt because I want to do a 19 hour breeze and I'm going to make 7 reduction sauces, you know, and me growing up in the city
+
+[25:27] and a little, you know, stove pot. You know, I'm just like, let me just heat some meat perfectly and dip it in mustard, you know, something like that. Just simple, not trying to get too gastronomic about it. All right. All right. I mean, what do you think about that, Nastasia? I agree. I especially don't want to be in my apartment with no air conditioning for 18
+
+[25:48] hours raising something, you know? Didn't I just tell you guys to buy a freaking pressure cooker if you're going to braise? Did I not just get through telling you guys to buy a pressure cooker so that you're not heating up your apartment when you're doing a brace? Did anyone not hear me say that? heard you. I heard you. Yeah, or the fact that generally you don't want braises in the freaking summertime. Yeah. But you know what? you know what? Your New York City tiny apartment's not good at? Grilling a freaking state. True. Yeah. Hey, I rely on my form and everything. Oh, the form. No, I never had one of those. Genius. Like, George Foreman has nothing to do with cooking, right? At all. Nothing. They were like, hey, you're a good boxer. You have a bunch of children all named George. Why don't you be the rep for this product? He does have a talent in shaking and bacon though. You mean like lit, what is that? Is that what he used to say when he was fighting? Are you actually referring to shaking baking? Shaking him back. He did call him. He did refer to himself as doing that once, but Davian Nelson of NPR,
+
+[26:40] Lost and Found Sound, did a story on George Foreman Girl, saying that it basically allowed homeless people to have a
+
+[26:46] kitchen. I mean, if they just could get access to an outlet, they could basically prepare meals like people in their home. So it was a very kind of Democrat, you know, project more than people give it credit for. Wait, wait, wait. Homeless people could feel like they had home. Homeless people who have the money for a George Foreman girl and an electric socket. Have you seen that movie about the mole people? Finding an electric socket. The mole people used to have. People used to live in what's called the freedom. Oh, wait, Patrick, you can't leave after driving that thing on. They like, okay, so there used to be a thing called the, or it might still be called that, the freedom tunnel in New York, which is an old Amtrak tunnel, which was graffitied by a famous graffiti person named Freedom
+
+[27:27] Something or whatever. And there were people down there who used to actually steal electricity. And those guys could, I assume, could get a hold of a George Foreman grill and grill without a home. But, I mean, the vast majority of people that have no home also have no access to electric
+
+[27:42] power. I would say. I mean, that's true. That true. But, I mean, you can get access. Damn it, if someone was like, get me access to an electrical outlet. I would do it. I would still figure it out somehow, even if I'm like going into the Middle Eastern restaurant around the corner and just borrowing his electricity for 10 minutes. But I mean, it did allow them to have a carry around portable kitchen. I mean, not a full kitchen, of course, but they could heat meat and grill like, you know, This has to be one of the craziest conversations we've ever had on the cooking issues radio. you know, I'll tell you this, though. When I lived in a dorm room and didn't have, yeah, when I lived in a dorm room and didn't have a kitchen, I went to the thrift shop and bought a Westinghouse turkey oven from the 50s and used it to bake bread.
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+[28:20] I mean, that was kind of my 1st oven away from home was this kind of thrift store oven. So dorm rooms, I mean, definitely... Yeah, college student. Yeah, I guess. cooked everything in a hot pot back then. Yeah, it's kind of like being homeless with the world's greatest support network around you is what you're saying. With like everyone like just catering to every knee that you have and not forcing you to have any
+
+[28:40] responsibility, other than that, completely like the real world. No offense to you, college students out there. anyway. I loved college. Nastasia's the only person who didn't like college. True. true. true. All right. This is a this is a crazy day. Okay. Hello, Jack, Anastasia, and Dave as well. I hope you guys are doing well with all the heat out there. My question has to do with sugar substitutes. I grew up being afraid of neutra sweet, sweet and low, a.k.a. saccharine and other sugar substitutes, thinking that they cause cancer and lead to birth defects.
+
+[29:08] I know that neutral sweet is banned in other countries, which is not to say, look, other countries ban lots of other weird
+
+[29:13] things, by the way. Like, what another country does or our country, for that matter, uh, you know, isn't really a measure necessarily of whether something is safe or
+
+[29:21] not, is a measure of whether or not there's enough of a public outcry based sometimes, in fact, and sometimes not. Anyway, band in other countries, my wife likes to drink diet soda and I cringe when she does. Just so you guys know. I drink almost exclusively seltzer now, but for many, many years, I only drank diet soda. That was what I drank, because I grew up drinking it. That was my liquid of choice. And before I even finished this question, I will tell anyone out here who's going to work for buying things for their grill or barbecue or party for 4th of July tomorrow. If you are a regular soda drinker, you are going to purchase the incorrect amount of diet soda, okay? you are going to get the wrong amount. Here's the here's how it works. When you were purchasing soda for a party. Realize that someone who drinks a sugar full soda, let's just say coke, right? The average soda drinker will have maybe one glass of that Coke, right? So a 2 liter bottle. We'll serve a good number of people for Coca-Cola, right? The average diet Coke drinker will finish the entire freaking 2 liter bottle themselves because they're going to sit there and pound diet Coke like nobody's freaking business.
+
+[30:27] So I guarantee you that unless you yourself are a diet soda drinker, you
+
+[30:32] underbuy your diet soda. Anyone here, anyone? What do you think? Agreed, disagree? I'll be drinking beer tomorrow. Yeah, well, I'm saying. so much about soda drinkers. What? Like we, did you say that you don't care about your guests? Most guests drink. I think they're just going to drink soda tomorrow. People. Anyway, I'm just telling you, if you're going to get a non-alcoholic drink,
+
+[30:56] you're, you're, you should have at least no less than one to one on diet to regular soda, no less. And in fact, you should probably have, for whatever your non-alcoholic basis, if you're going to do soda, you should have
+
+[31:08] 22 thirds diet, 13rd regular. That's general, you know, whatever. Anyway, if I'm coming, just get seltzer. You need some non-alcoholic stuff. I mean, beer is relatively low in alcohol, so you can pound that all day, but if you're sitting there pounding wine after wine after wine after wine,
+
+[31:23] you need some non-alcoholic products, I mean, we all know water is wretched. Just kidding. I just happen to not drink water. I drink I drink seltzer only. Okay, sorry, back to the question. My wife likes to drink diet soda and I cringe when she does. Is that rational or just paranoid? What research and studies have been done around the safety of sugar substitutes, which are safe and which
+
+[31:42] are not? What is the process of their production? Lastly, I've heard about isomalt and manitol, sugars that are used for culinary purposes, and not for diet sodas necessarily. What does it deal with those in terms of safety? And aside aside from that, What is their culinary value in the kitchen? Finally, I was in New York briefly and went down to the bar. That's Booker and Dax, our bar. The drinks are awesome, but there were no pretzels. Please put some on the menu. Maybe we should have some pretzels on the menu. Yeah? Martin's Brothers? Martin Pretzels, because they're the best. Thanks so much for keeping the airwaves delicious. Brian in San Francisco. Okay, 1st of all, isomalt and Manitol are used because, well, isomalt is used a lot in confectionery with kind of higher
+
+[32:24] end, what's it, like technological cooking because it doesn't absorb moisture as much. It doesn't turn as brown as much. When you're cooking it into caramel. It's nice and hard. So you use it a lot in, um, in blown sugar work or on confectionery or if you look at like what Faran and those guys do making those and Jose Andres and making those
+
+[32:42] uh, those like isomalt packages with the, with the uh, olive oil in them. So they're they're great for that. And they're slightly less sweet than sugar. So they have a lot of the structural properties of sugar without all the sweetness. Manitol, you know, a little bit different. I don't really use that one in the kitchen. But let's go back to what I think is the important part of the question here is our, what are called non-nutritive sweeteners. Are they dangerous or not? And the short answer is all the research points to them not being dangerous. Every actual bit of current scientific research points to
+
+[33:17] non-nutritive sweeteners being absolutely fine from a health perspective. Now, um, you know, and you know, you can look at, and I can't even believe that I'm
+
+[33:30] quoting these guys because I don't, you know, it's not my normal thing. And again, I'm not usually a health guy. I'm not the guy to ask health questions of. But if you read the recent paper, for instance, in 2012, the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which, you know, again, for any of you who've ever listened to me, go on a rant and rave about this, you know that I have
+
+[33:48] big problems with the entire, um, uh, nutritionist
+
+[33:54] kind of, um, outlook on things because it keeps changing. all the data, all the ideas, like what's good, what's bad, keep changing every year, what changes, salt's good, salt's bad, this is good, this is bad. So I tend to, I tend to regard every, every piece of information as horse
+
+[34:08] hockey, uh, except for the one that I always go back to, which is eat uh, eat a moderate amount of a wide variety of things. I mean, I'm overweight right now. And it's because I eat too much freaking food. It's because I eat an absurd amount of freaking food. My total caloric consumption is way higher than it should be. And that's, that's the God's truth. It doesn't matter which kind of calorie I'm consuming I'm consuming too much of it. Okay, that's it. The position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Uh, does and you should look at this. Cindy, uh, Fitch, uh, PhD, and Catherine Kyme, PhD, where they, uh, the main authors on it, and it's, they do an exhaustive review of all of the studies. Aspartan, which is NutraSuite. A lot of people used to worry about aspartane because it has the warning on it. Phenol Ketinuria, which is basically, it's a genetic disorder. If you have it, you know you have it. You were tested at birth. And yes, you know, your brain can be damaged because you don't, um, you don't metabolize
+
+[35:03] phenolanine, which is an amino acid, also present in proteins. You don't metabolize it properly. And when nutrisweet is broken down in the body. It creates an excess of phenolalanine in the system. And so you should be aware of it. For all the rest of us, that's fine. And there have never been any study, or there's no current study anyway, that shows that there's been any sort of problem with it.
+
+[35:27] And the average consumption, even for people who pound diet soda all day, according to this article, is below your, you know, your recommended maximum daily intake to have any issues. Saccharine was banned because there was some bladder cancer studies
+
+[35:44] in rats in, I think the 70s, late 70s or 80s. And the problem was, is that they were feeding these rats an absurd amount of saccharine, and it turns out that all of the actual studies done, and this is major studies done with people over time measuring their incidence of bladder cancer or other cancers with saccharine intake, have shown
+
+[36:06] that, in fact, it's not, in fact, it's not true. And basically, the government realizes this, but they're not going back. Like, anyway, the point is that there's no current studies that anyone can point to.
+
+[36:19] There's no studies that haven't been debunked that show that saccharine causes any sort of problem. Uh, sucralose. Um, Sucralose again. In other words, like all the ones that are being used, even cyclomates, which were the 1st one to be banned because of cancer studies, current research seems to show that
+
+[36:37] cycle mates don't actually cause any sort of cancer. Sucralose, I'll just give you a gross fact about it. You don't break it down, so you pee and poop it out. So theoretically, if you eat a lot of suculos, your pee and poop will be sweet. If you were to try it. I wouldn't go ahead and try it. But I'm just saying, uh, like that's that's uh, the case. So the long story short, every single piece of evidence I was able to find that was not put out by a crank or a quack goes to show that
+
+[37:04] non-nutritive sweeteners are fine to use. Whether you think that they're gross from a mental perspective and therefore should not be used because they're an abomination because what you should do is eat products that are made with care and it tastes good and that non-nutrient sweeteners taste bad and not like real
+
+[37:21] sugar and therefore are an abomination. I think that's a valid point. Uh, you know, uh, also, uh, another,
+
+[37:29] I try to look at a bunch of studies that uh, looked into whether or not, um, there, you know, one of the arguments back in the day was that if you ate uh, sugar substitutes, your body would have an increased uh, desire for other
+
+[37:41] foods and therefore you would actually eat more because you weren't getting the sugar from the taste of
+
+[37:45] sweet and they would increase your consumption of other solids and then you wouldn't regulate properly. Apparently all that's horse hockey too. I don't found any current studies that show that that's the case. And then after I research this, I looked at another interesting article. Did you know that with, because this kind of goes back to what happened, what was
+
+[38:05] it last week, Jack, with the question on Bloomberg Sugar Band? last week? Yeah. Did you know that over the past 3 years, the consumption of sugar per capita in the United States has gone down? Really? Yeah, it's gone down. You know why? Because we're drinking less freaking soda because it's gotten such bad press. So everyone is talking about, everyone's talking about all of these problems, but if you actually look at the data, right, the actual current data, the data, since people have been starting to scream about sugar
+
+[38:37] being, the evil that, you know, and in fact, like there's a, the studies show that our sugar content, like since that time, in the past four, five, 6 years, has started to go down, and at the very most conservative estimates today, it's leveled off, our general caloric
+
+[38:55] intake way freaking high, right? Our general caloric intake has gone up, but our sugar consumption has gone down or at least stabilized. And some of these numbers, you know, I only had a couple of hours to research it, so it's hard for me to make any actual pronouncements, but if you go and look online,
+
+[39:11] like one of the one of the articles to look at is called. Where is it? Consumption of added sugars is decreasing in the United States by J.A. Welsh and A.J. Sharma. And they're using their data comes from the nutrition and health science. Sorry, their data comes from the National Health and Nutrition
+
+[39:30] Examination survey. So go look at that. Um, And, uh, you know, it just, it just goes to show that these problems are much more complicated than banning sugar
+
+[39:40] or or trying to ban sodas to try and get rid of sugar consumption that sugar is not some sort of horrible poison. Uh, you know, one of the big, um, one of the big people out there who's anti-sugar is a doctor in California named Robert uh, Lustig. And he's been writing a lot of articles, getting a lot of play. And I don't have the time. I haven't had the time to look at his articles thoroughly enough, to debunk what he writes in them, but he writes articles with titles like. fructose, metabolic, hedonic and societal parallels with ethanol. Because basically the man thinks that sugar is a poison and a drug
+
+[40:19] with, you know, so did KRS one, by the way. with kind of parallels to ethanol and is on an anti-sugar cake.
+
+[40:27] Interestingly, you know, this same group of doctors, actually, goes to show how our dietary information was so bad in the in the 70s and 80s, decrying fat as the enemy, and that those low fat diets, actually caused a lot of problems, including
+
+[40:44] obesity, and whatnot, and then fail to recognize that their own insistence on sugar as being the ultimate enemy in all of these
+
+[40:52] things is similarly just rotten data from a particular,
+
+[40:58] uh, in time that I'm sure later on is going to be shown
+
+[41:03] that, well, they were wrong for a different reason. I think, again, it goes back to, and, you know, I need to spend more time going to the ins and outs of all of the research that they cite,
+
+[41:13] but it goes back to the point that what you really want to do is eat a wide variety of foods in
+
+[41:20] moderation. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah. Oh, another thing. Tomorrow at Roberta's Pizzeria on the 4th of July. Uh, Kobayashi is going to be doing a hot dog eating contest sponsored, I
+
+[41:31] guess by Roberta's and Crypt Dogs. Yeah, and I'm gonna be interviewing him. Yeah? Yeah, I mean, if all goes well. What do you mean if all goes well? What could not go well? The man knows how to eat a hot dog. Who knows? He may just have his hands full, but they said if they can wrangle him in here for a minute. You know, I'm going to keep the AC on, I'll have some cold drinks and hopefully... The man's not going to freaking drink anything before
+
+[41:49] the... That's good point. But I don't think he speaks English, so it should be a fun interview. That's the best. translator? I think so. I hope so Well, listen, is there any, do you don't know if you have a translator? Hey, is there, well, should I put a call out for anyone that speaks Japanese and wants to come translate? No, I mean, he will. It's just they said it's going to be crazy and they hope he can come in here and at the very least they're promising a drop. So we'll get Kobayashi trying to say, you know, heritage radionetwork.org. It's gonna be awesome. will be pretty awesome. The man single-handedly kind of made like competitive eating like kind of a thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know the whole story about him, right? Like he was banned from the contest because he wouldn't sign with the major league eating union or
+
+[42:32] whatever. You know, they have like the organization of all the eaters, they're represented for competitions. he did not want to sign with them. He wanted his own representation. So he could not compete in the Nathan's hot dog eating contest because he was not in that union. So he showed up anyway with a shirt that said free Kobe, and he kind of crashed the stage, and then the police had to kick him out, and it was this whole thing. So that's why he'll be here. Kobe Beef or Kobe Bryant? No, free Kobayashi. Oh, Kobayashi. Right. You know, he just shortened it. So anyway, so he'll be here competing against the Nathan's hot dog eating people remotely via video.
+
+[43:04] Didn't the guy invent the Dunkin' Smash? I think he did, yeah. Yeah. First of all, it's all kind of, it's, I mean, from an actual, from my perspective as a food person. I mean, the whole thing is kind of gross, like massive consumption. I'm kind of fascinated by it, but it's also gross, right? I mean, I think hot dogs are gross period. Really? Yeah, I don't really like them. They taste good, though. That's the problem with them. They taste good. Also, did you know that if you make hot dogs, if you use the proper spices, no matter what meat you make out of, you know what it tastes like? Hot dog. I've made one out of like all out of duck, all hand done, mulsified, blah, blah, blah, you know, all this thing, trammed everything. Tastes like a hot dog. Hot dog spice. What is it? I forget what the mix is, but I like, anyway, but that's not my point. Here's what I'm going to talk about with the eating, right? Back to another one of my non-scientific just, you know, diet traffic. But this is my soapbox. So I get to say what I want. Calorie is, in fact, not a calorie because your body is not 100% efficient, right? So if Kobayashi, who I believe is current record for this hot dog, I don't know how many minutes it is or whatever, but it's 69 hot dogs, right? That's his current record for whatever the official professional hot dog eating round is, the 69 hot dogs, which is absurd. But that's 270 calories a pop according to the internet. 69 hot dogs is 18,630 calories. In, what is it, 2 minutes, Jack? I don't know, I can look it up. Yeah something like that. Okay. So, if you believe that a calorie is a calorie, right? And if they all add up. That would mean that he would gain from that alone in terms of actual body fat, 5.3 pounds, right? That doesn't happen though. Well, you know what gains 5.3 pounds? His toilet gains 5.3 pounds because your body simply cannot process all of
+
+[44:43] that, all of that food in one schlog. It just can't it can't be none. Similarly, if you were to drink a gallon of oil. Do you think that you would gain 8.9 pounds, which is the actual, at 3500 calories per pound, is the number that's bandied about? Do you think you would gain 8.9 pounds or do you think you would just run to the toilet and poop it all out? What do you think, Aaron? I hope he pulls the trigger after the contest. Yeah, yeah. I imagine it goes right through your system. Right. one in maybe even out the same way it came in. Wow, you think you think you throw it up? You know, that's true. I never seen someone do the gallon of milk contest thing without throwing it up. We had a competitive eater on one of the shows, Tim Jannis. Oh, I forget what his name was, but he called it a reversal fortune. And he said, if anybody says the word vomit or puke in front of a competitive eater, it's
+
+[45:33] like, get out of the room. You can't do that. You can't even say the word. You mean like when they're just sitting talking? Yeah, or like getting ready for a competition more, you know. But like after the comp, like, especially after the comp, yeah, you know. But what I'm saying is like, like, you know, in general casual conversation, are you allowed to say puke? That's good question. What about boot? Also a good we should get we should get him back and on the show. Yeah, let's do it Let's try to do that. All right. So, all right. So I think we answered most of the question. Do you have any closing comments here, Aaron, other than go to Kickstarter and go to deconstructing dinner and give some freaking money? Yeah, check out DeaconstrickenDinner.com. We really need the help of all the listeners and anyone
+
+[46:12] who's and like us on Facebook too, from the site. Send it to all your friends, anyone who's passionate about food. I think will really like this project. Alright. Well, thank you for being our guest producer today. Thanks to everyone. This is a big cooking issues.
+
+[46:31] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our programs archived on our website or by searching iTunes for
+
+[46:41] Heritage Radio Network. You can find us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter at
+
+[46:46] Heritage underscore radio. You can email us at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website. Thanks for listening. get it straight.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Your Shoes coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting out of the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in
+
+[0:43] Bushwork, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Mustasia Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good, how are you? And the whole crew in the engineering rooms. Give a shout out. Yeah we're here. Yeah. Okay. You were right on time today. I know it. You know, at an up at 12. Maybe I'm just getting faster on the bike. It's awesome Yeah? I feel like I'm getting less in shape, so I doubt that's the case. Maybe I actually left on time today. possible. I doubt it. Probably not. Uh, so anyway, uh, the cooking issues crew. Nastasia and I, along with Tristan Wheeley from our Bar Booker Index, were on the Jimmy Fallon show yesterday. for the 2nd time, right? Yeah, second time. It was a lot of fun. They put a picture of my kids, Booker and Dax up with
+
+[1:27] the with their bartender's mustaches on, thanks to Nastasia who emailed them the picture. But they were a great crew, right? They were a great crew. They were. I made a chocolate drink for Questlove as well, which was a lot of fun anyway. Enough about us. Okay. William writes in. I hate peating potato potatoes. I actually like peeling potatoes. It's weird. It's like, you know how, like, in every book about, like, a famous chef? Well, no, no, it's like, for instance, okay, so like, you ever read a Roman's book, Soul of a Chef? No. Right? No? Anyway, you haven't, you just haven't read it? It's not that long. mean, you could read it. I am not interested. I don't want to... Why do you have it? Oh, because I was like, oh, okay, Mark, I'll get a solo chef. And then I was like, nah. So it was enough, like, what? I wanted to try to understand and commiserate with the chef, having being dating a chef. I just haven't gotten around to reading it. Wait, not only have you not? No, I choose not to read it. You choose not to. chose to read Fifty Shades of Gray. What's that? Nothing, I'm joking. What is that? Some people will know. Did you really read it? No. What is that? What is 50 Shades? am I behind everything? the hell? I'm like 80 years old. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what any of the people are reading these days. I know nothing except about food technology these days. I guess, like, pathetic. Anyways, so you bought it was enough to buy it to be like, hey, Mark, look, I own this book, aren't I nice? Yeah, but I don't want to read. I not interested. Anyways, uh, so in that book, like they make a lot of hay over Thomas Keller liking to wash
+
+[2:58] dishes, as though it shows a sign that he's interested in all aspects of what goes on in the restaurant in the search for perfection, not just, uh, you know, the
+
+[3:06] finished cooking preverage, but everything from cooking dishes and scrubbing pots and all the way up.
+
+[3:10] Really, I think he's just a cycle and likes to likes to scrub pots. It's like I like juicing limes and lemons, and I don't mind peeling potatoes. you know what I mean? It's like a zen thing for me. It's not like because I care about the little things, which is also true. It's just, I don't mind doing that freaking job. Cooks are weird anyway. Back to the question. I hate peeling potatoes. Is it an alternative shortcut to peeling potatoes other than the blanch for 15 minutes, dunk in ice
+
+[3:36] water and rub the skin off? I tried this technique with large russets, but it was quite messy and a pain in the patucas, and feel that using a peeler would have been easier. Thanks, Williams. Well, William, you know, I've never actually used that technique for peeling potatoes. I peel all my potatoes with a Y peeler. Um, I mean, I just, I mean, I can rip through a, I can rip through. I've only really ever had to do like £20 at a time, though. So I don't know if you're doing like a whole bunch. I would bet anything under £10 or even £15, you're going to be much faster, I think, just busting out with a Y peeler. The only advantage, I think, of the Blanch is if you're not going to soak them in water right away after you peel
+
+[4:17] them. I peel them and directly throw them into water. The blanching will probably kill the enzymes right at the surface of the potato. And therefore, stop the potato from discoloring. So if you weren't going to throw it into water right away after you peel it, then maybe that blanch would help you on that. But I would just use a Y peeler. If you are doing more than like 20, £30 at these at a time. Uh, and you have space in your kitchen, they do sell um, for not that much money. Nils used to use them in Sweden, actually, because the restaurants he used to work with in Sweden, it's like basically all they served were potatoes and herring and salmon. That was it. Potato staring. I'm just kidding, but that's not really, though. And so they had these abrasive peelers. And the way an abrasive peeler works, It's a drum, and it's got sandpaper on the inside on the bottom of the drum in a wavy shape, and the drum spins, and you pour water into it, and the potatoes literally tumble around and produce like a potato peel
+
+[5:15] sludge. And the longer you run it, the more crap that you get off of it. And that's how, like large, larger restaurants that do a lot of potatoes sometimes get those. I think they're more common in Europe. And that's how potatoes are peeled in big potato
+
+[5:31] factories, abrasively. And, and then they'll also a lot of times use a high, uh, uh, a high pressure water jet to spray on the potatoes as well because that'll blast out any of the dark areas that are uh, on a potato. See, here's the other thing, right? If you're going to blanch and then rub the rub this stuff off, you're still going to need some sort of a knife or a peeler to get rid of all the black spots that are on the insides of the
+
+[5:53] potatoes. And, you know, that's why, this is another thing. People who don't peel their potatoes beforehand. I mean, the problem with not peeling your potatoes beforehand is that there are plenty of potatoes that look sound after you wash
+
+[6:04] them, you know, you scrub them and you wash them. Uh, but, um, after you peel them, you notice the black spot underneath. So if you're not peeling your potatoes before, you know, you make
+
+[6:14] French fries and stuff, then you have to pick through all the French fries and worry about all the black spots, right? No? Anyway. Uh, my, my ¢2, but sorry I couldn't, I didn't really hope there. I think a lot of, a lot of times when people are, uh, their peelings are not as fast as they otherwise could be using a regular peeler. It's just because they're using a traditional straight peeler instead of the Y shade peeler. In fact, the my favorite, you know, is, and I feel like I'm shilling for these guys because I also talk about their pressure cooker. I've never received a single thing from the Coon Recon Corporation, but they're relatively inexpensive and colorful Y
+
+[6:49] peelers work great. They cost like 4 bucks, and they're so much faster than the metal kind of more professional style Y
+
+[6:57] peelers whose blade geometry, I don't think, is correct, or any of the other expensive ones, the cheap plastic ones.
+
+[7:04] And they come in a bunch of different colors, which is nice because you'd be like, yo, mine's the green one. It's the green one. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'd stay away from the serrated edge peelers. They're theoretically for soft, peeling soft, uh, things where um, I don't know. I've never had any damn luck with them. Nastasia likes them for some. She likes the way to look. You like the serrated peeler look. I do. But there's no sort of functionality that you care about, right? No, no, no. Got a tweet in about the Fallon show. Oh, yeah? What they say? Most amazing thing about the Fallon appearance is cooking issues didn't drop the
+
+[7:39] F-bomb once. Oh, someone must know me. Someone, someone tweeted in. What's his name? Who? Joseph Gordon Levitt. He dropped the F-Mom? Yes. I couldn't watch. was working. was nothing to do. Like nothing for you to do. You're sitting around in the fish room. talk to you after. Nothing to do. Trista and I were sitting there prepping this stuff out during the, during the, with the producers. I said, I'll talk to you after. Yeah, and you wouldn't know because where were you not? With me working with Tristan. Okay, we'll talk about it after. Yeah, right. That's what makes Heritage radio better than Fallon. We'll let you drop F- bombs. I know, but I don't. I know, we appreciate that. Well, that's where we had that write-in once and they said their kids listen and... By the way, that's classic nastasia. For those of you that don't know her, is to talk about something. She was not even with me during the entire thing. She was working on email on the computer in the in, they have these weird little rooms and they all have weird names. We were in the fish room, right? And it had like all sorts of weird cereal boxes on the sidewall. But that's where that's where Nastasia was chilling most of the time. Right? Right, right. Uh, okay. Oh, and also from William, I've been catching up on older podcasts. And one you mentioned about not having the resources to buy certain things to test out for the listeners, why not putting up a donation link on
+
+[9:03] the site? I'm sure many of us are happy to donate. After all, you're giving us a wealth of info, William McGee. That's a good idea. Right? Yeah. Mustasia, look into that. Listeners can donate to Heritage Radio on our homepage. But will that buy us cooking equipment to test out for our readers? Um, no. Check with Aaron on that. That's funny. Okay. Uh, Joe writes in, Amazon.com is advertising Mirvold's modern, well,
+
+[9:28] Mirvold at all, Mirvold at all. Modernist cuisine at home to be released on October 8th. So what's the story? Is this just an edited version of the original, or will there be new content? Can those of us that have the original safely give this a pass? Thanks, Joe. Listen, I gotta be honest, I didn't have time to get in touch with any of those guys. So I don't know. I haven't read any of the pre-press on that. Like, you know, our heads have pretty much been in a hole because we got a lot of projects we're working on. So the outside world hasn't really been penetrating much. Um, I don't know that they've, I think it's probably a redux of stuff that's in the larger book. Uh, might have been represented somewhat uh, or changed, but I don't think those guys have had the time to to do anything. We put it this way. If that crew is going to do a totally fresh thing, they're
+
+[10:22] going to put as much energy into it as they put into anything else they do, and I don't think they've had the time to do that. So it's probably going to be pulled from the other one. But I'm gonna, you know, if anyone else knows or wants to write in, I'm anxious to hear because I don't know. Um, okay. Passing along this question. Uh, in my most recent article about the benefits of anesthetizing fish, lobsters and crabs for enhanced flavors, I was wondering if uh, if I've ever tried doing the same with bivalves. And if so, whether it's made any difference in the flavor. Thanks, Craig. Okay, so we're talking about the recent 2 weeks old now. Cooking issues post on using anesthesia, specifically clove oil on lobsters and crabs. And the theory is, is that if you anesthetize them before you kill them, they taste better, which is true. We've done that test many, many times. And they taste cleaner, sweeter. They're awesome. And plus, if you should feel bad about throwing alive crustacean into a pot of boiling water. This will allay your nervousness somewhat because they
+
+[11:30] don't they don't twitch, they don't move at all. They just sink to the bottom of a pot, and there's no sort of reaction from them at all. Uh, so anyway, so I wrote about the technique of how to do that using clove oil that you get
+
+[11:41] at, um, at Whole Foods. Anyway. So, uh, plus, you know, or the benefits of just shutting a knife uh, through them and taking out all of their ganglion and then and
+
+[11:51] then, and then boiling them, problem with that being that you lose some of the juices on the inside of the lobster, and so
+
+[11:57] you uh, lose some of its taste. Anyway, question is, can you do that on bivalves? I don't know. Uh, I've never, I've never tried to anesthetize a bivalve, bivalve, meaning, uh, I would guess, specifically clams, and, uh, and mussels, or, you know, perhaps something like a
+
+[12:12] welk, or, uh, or something else. I go, it's not a bivalve, that's a univalve, right? Anyway, um, the, um, so if we're talking about mussels and clams, uh, and and oysters.
+
+[12:24] Here's the problem. Clove oil, water that you anesthetize things in has an aroma of clothes. And this is why when you're using clove oil, you have to be especially careful to not get it on your hands because it becomes impossible to find out whether anything's
+
+[12:40] been contaminated because whenever you bring your hands to your nose to see what's going on. You smell clothes. When you're dealing with lobsters that are then going to get boiled, or you're dealing with fish that are going to get, you know, scrubbed and gutted. The clove oil flavor doesn't come through because it's been diluted twice, right? But like, it's not really enough of it is not on the fish or the lobster, uh, or in the
+
+[13:01] thing so so that you can detect it. But in a bivalve where you have the where like part of its juices are the fluids in which it is sitting, then I'm pretty sure you're going to detect
+
+[13:13] the aroma of clove. And so I don't think you'd be able to do a valid taste test between anesthetizing a lobster. I mean, an oyster versus knot. Um, It's an interesting question. Now, I've tried using gases to gas them open without much luck. You know, Mirvold and Chris Young and those guys use a quick freeze with liquid nitrogen to shuck their oysters quickly to, you know, kill
+
+[13:45] them, kill them quickly. Uh, I don't know how fast high hydrostatic pressure is, which is also used Illinois. I've never actually tasted one of those oysters. It's killed and pasteurized with high hydrostatic pressure. So I don't can't tell you whether they taste good or they taste bad, but there's a lot of other effects other than not cutting open a living creature in
+
+[14:02] that in that scenario. What I have done with, and it's totally separate has nothing to do with anesthesia is I've put oysters. This is years and years ago, I would make flavored seawater,
+
+[14:15] using, we would use for clams, we once you used chicken stock with bacon in it, for oysters. We used to use carrot juice and cardamom. And we would, I would add aquarium salt back to it to get it to be just like the ocean. And then I would have the
+
+[14:30] oysters or clams drink, the fluid, right? They would basically, I would put them in this, I would aerate it. I would, you know, keep it at the at the temperature that the clams and the oysters would want to feed at. They would feed. And then when you shuck the oyster, it would be bright orange. Like, so you'd have an oyster there in the shell, you'd shuck it, and it would be bright orange, and it would taste like carrots and cardamom. And that was a nifty trick. I haven't done that in a long time. Have you ever done that for you, nostachi? that before that was before you were working with us, but uh, and it's been a long, long time since I've done it, but it's a fun, it's a fun little
+
+[15:01] trick. Anyway, so that's for whatever it's worth there, Craig. Anyway, you want take a break? Let's take a break. Come back to cooking issues.
+
+[16:15] If you want to be a great chef, you can't learn everything from within the walls of a classroom. That's why the French Culinary Institute has evolved into the International Culinary Center. When you come here, you don't just learn basic culinary skills. You come to understand and to feel the whole culinary world. You have to network. You have to observe the true meaning of world-class performance. You have to intern at some of the world's great restaurants. At the international culinary center's campuses in New York, California, and Italy. We will expose you to the whole of the culinary world, one that is evolving daily at a very high speed. The International Culinary Center offers a wide range of courses, including culinary, pastry, and bread baking, to Italian, wine, management, culinary technology, and food writing.
+
+[17:03] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. International Culinary Center, right? Yeah. Anyway, back at cooking issues. Call in your questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. This one into Nastasia, myself. Real quick, Andy Milka says, why the Y peeler? Feel like I'm going to peel my hand somehow. Love traditional straight peeler. Well, I don't recommend peeling your hand. would be a mistake. It's all about, hey, look, here's the thing, right? Watch someone who's adept at a Y peeler. It's a different kind of a skill, right, from using it. So, uh, but I, I know what you're, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about. This peeler looks like a Y. That's why they call it a Y peeler. Duh. And if you're not used to using it, you, what you feel like you're going to get is, like, let's say you're holding a potato, you're holding a potato in the palm of your hand, and your thumb and your index are like on it, right? And you're peeling down and then you're using your thumb and index to rotate the potato as the as the Y peeler is going, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap. you do, if you're not used to it, get the feeling that you're going to nick your thumb somehow. But I haven't. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, I guess getting used to it. But it's just, I mean, look at anyone who's really good with a Y peeler and they're just much, much faster with it. I guess just because of the, the, the stroke. Now, what you don't get is that same feeling. So with a regular straight peeler, you're keeping the straight peeler kind of in between
+
+[18:33] your 4 fingers in kind of like a, I don't know, what would you call that kind of a palm I'm making? Uh, like the... Like Kung Fu Iron Fist. Yeah. No, black power's a fist. Yeah. Uh, but like, uh, like kind of like a kung fu, like, like, like palm slap thing. And you're using your thumb and you can pull the straight peeler towards you with a curl of your of your
+
+[18:55] wrist. It's kind of like a snapping motion, but still not as fast as a really adept person with a Y
+
+[19:02] peeler. Another thing, and I got a call, give me one second. But with a with a Y peeler, like let's say you're doing carrots. You put the carrot flat on a baking sheet, and then you just, you just, the Y peeler, it's like, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap, slap,
+
+[19:16] as you're rotating the carrot underneath you, and the peels just go flying everywhere. It's amazing. Try the Y. Anyway, color, you're on the air. Hi, how are you? Doing well. are you? Good. Your show's great so far. I'm really enjoying it Oh, thanks. I have a really silly question. Now, I always try to like whip my own whipped cream, and I don't know if it's because I'm buying ultra pasteurized or I'm not whipping it at the right speed, but it's literally about 2 steps away from becoming butter. Maybe you know what I'm doing wrong. Yeah, I think you're probably just whipping too long. So usually when you're when you're whipping your own, um, cream, right? Uh, you, uh, it's not going to be as hard or as stiff as the stuff that, you know, that is commercial out of
+
+[20:02] a out of a can. Or, you know what I mean? Those guys, yeah, because those guys add a lot of stabilizer. So I would start with like a really cold cream, got the highest fat content cream you can get. I've never done a lot of tests on ultra pasteurized versus not, but I can tell you that at the school, they
+
+[20:20] use a non-ltra pasteurized, a regular pasteurized cream, which is hard to get in supermarket, and it
+
+[20:25] just, it tastes better. I mean, it tastes better. And the cream we get is also a very high fat content cream. So it also whips up quite nicely. If, I mean, if you want to cheat and you want it a little bit stiffer, you could add
+
+[20:40] stabilizers. I mean, and if you look at the label on whipped cream, especially the ones that are trying to reduce the fat content, they use light cream, and they stabilize the hell out of those things. Oh, okay. Yeah, and that'll get it a little bit. But if you whip it even a little bit too much. What happens is, is, um, so cream is
+
+[20:59] a, uh, is an oil in water emulsion, the continuous phase is uh, is water. And then if you over whip it, right? And then when you whip it, the fat is, you know, basically you're forming like a foam
+
+[21:12] and the fats at the layer, with air. If you over whip it, the fat starts to kind of agglomerate together and the emulsion starts to invert. And if you go too long, obviously, you get butter. But the 1st thing you get is that kind of grainy feel and starts watering down a little
+
+[21:29] bit, the texture loses and you start getting a buttery taste to the whipped cream, which is not what you want. Yeah, yeah, I tried to make a peanut butter pie. So I was like, oh, this should be super duper easy. I'll just do it this way. And it still came out like really good, but it was like super thick and like not that
+
+[21:43] aerated and I'm like, ah, crap. Do I keep doing wrong? So. Right. You could fortify, like, so you look at traditional moose recipes and they got their whipped cream and they're fortified
+
+[21:52] with like a gelatin mix afterwards. They're folded together. And that'll keep something like that pretty stiff. Um, you know, another uh, let's see, over whipping, what else could be? I mean, that's that's the that's the main thing. And, you know, obviously something that people, I mean, I'm sure you know this already, but just to tell people, when you're
+
+[22:09] with cream, don't forget to add salt to it, because it really pops the flavor. Yeah, a little bit. Not a lot. You don't want it salty, but it just really rounds out the flavor, makes it makes it a lot better. Oh, wow. I never knew that. Well, thanks so much for your help. Hey, no problem. Hope it helps. Yeah, thank you. Have a good one. You too. All right. So it was I, what was I, what were we talking about? I was like ranting about something different. Oh, the Y peeler. Anyway, yeah, I hit that. Okay. by the way, Jack, this one's for you and for anyone out there listening wants to download the podcast. This is to everyone, including Indie Jesus. This is from Kevin, but remember, Indie Jesus is no longer with us. He doesn't work our shift anymore. made it sound like he died. No, it. Jesus is all... You guys, man, you're going to get me in some big trouble. No, it's Indie Jesus hates Nastasia. the problem. Yeah, that means that's my best guess. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. First off, is from Kevin. First off, enjoy the show and want to share a tip for anyone who's on the Android and doesn't have an iPhone. You can download Heritage Radio's RSS feed for the show into the Google Listen app, and it will automatically download and sync all the episodes over the air.
+
+[23:12] I did not know that. Yeah, I did not know this. It used to be a huge pain to download the episodes one by one and copy them over USB, so I hope this helps some folks. Number two, this is from Kevin still. I have the opportunity to give talks on food science for Australia's National Science week in Melbourne in August, although they pronounce it like Melbourne, right? Now how do they pronounce it? No, no. I can't do it. I can't do the Australian version of Melbourne the way they pronounce it. So I'm going to say it like an American Melbourne. Anyway, I'd like to tailor the message to the ingredients and cooking equipment
+
+[23:41] available down there, i.e. in Melbourne. Do you have any experience working in Australia, and would you mind plugging my request to your Australian listeners, the best contact would be Kevin at sciencefair.org, fair as in food,
+
+[23:56] F-A-R-E. Keep up the inspirational work. Kevin, I do not have any experience in Australia. I've never been to Australia. If there's anyone out there that wants to fly cooking issues down to Australia for any reason, will do it, right? But I'm sure, you know, if anyone from the Breville Corporation is listening, they can hook you up with some equipment, right? I mean, like a Breville like owns like Australia's cooking implement universe, don't they? Brevel. They also, they love Momafuku. They love like, you know, our partners, Dave Chang. They love Christina Tozi. Christina Tozi's. I think her shop is basically constructed out of Brevel, Brevel pieces of equipment instead of bricks because they have so much Brevel equipment.
+
+[24:36] True or false. Yes. Not, I mean, not honestly. I mean, it's like, you know, it's an exact. exaggerating. Anyway. Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. By the way, it's, I always pronounce, pronounce your name properly because I always mispronounce it. Nastasia. Yeah, I say Nastasia. And so people one syllable less. Yeah, it's one syllable less because I'm a lazy, lazy son of a bitch. All right. Tom Fisher writes in. Dave Nastasia and Jack. Hope you had a great Fourth of July. I've run into a snag. I've been making clarified fruit juices using your instructions for some time and recently started using them to make flavored ice cream. The juices were not strong enough on their own, so I froze them and remounted them drawing off the concentrated juice. This worked well, but I got very inconsistent results as I have no way to determine the concentration of the juice. I remember you were mentioning a bricks refractometer to measure the concentration of sugar and solution. Will this work for my application as well? Many thanks, Tom Fisher. Hell, yes. Yes. That's the easiest question I've ever had to answer. Yes. Now, here's what you got to do. You got to figure out, so you want the sugar content of the ice cream probably to be on the same order of concentration as a
+
+[25:46] sorbet. And I can't remember off the top of my head what a proper bricks concentration for a sorbet is, but it's on the order of, I think, 20% sugar or something like that,
+
+[25:56] like 17, 20, something. I can't remember. So what you're going to want to do is figure out what percentage of your recipe
+
+[26:03] is juice, right? And then figure out any other added sugar that you're going to add to it. And then you can calculate on a weight basis of your ice cream mix what the bricks, because all bricks means is, is percentage by
+
+[26:17] weight, uh, of a solution that is sugar. Okay? So, uh, you know, let's say your your mixture was going to be one quarter fruit juice, uh, and it was going to be the only sugar that's in the in the recipe. Well, then you'd need a very high bricks, right? Because if you were looking for 20% of the thing to be sugar and you want to add, you know, only a quarter of it being juice, almost all of it would have to be sugar. But that said, it's all doable, right? But what you need is, you need a brakes for fractometer. Most of the ones that people buy are 0 to 32 bricks, so they can only do from 0 well, 0 to 32% sugar in a solution. And that's fine for fruit juice and fine for sorbet, but not fine if you're going to need to use something as concentrated as a simple syrup, let's say, typical simple syrup somewhere between 50 bricks, normal, or
+
+[27:09] a rich simple syrup is going to be at like 66 bricks. So, um, I use, I use an electronic one that's, you know, a lot more expensive because I need to be very, very quick for the bar, but you can get a
+
+[27:20] brakes for a fractometer that's 0 to 85% brakes, which will take care of a lot of what you're going to do. Uh, for about uh, $40, $50. If you want, you can buy 2 of the cheaper ones, one for the higher range and one for the lower range. The disadvantage of getting a single bricks or fractometer that's extremely wide range, like 0 to 85 is it's just not very accurate because it's hard to look into the refractometer and read the scale.
+
+[27:45] But, you know, they're not complicated to use. They're easy to take care of. I've only ever had one person break one. But, uh, but yeah, go ahead and get them. And that's another one of those things. You know, if you ever need one, the needs are going to come up for it again and again, no one's ever said, man, I wish I didn't have that
+
+[28:06] refractometer. You know what I mean? Okay. Uh, okay, uh, have some uh, Twitter questions and I'm going to take care of real quick uh, before we go to our other commercial break. At cooking issues. Have you ever run tests on Centerfuges to clarify high density items like bean puree. If so, would it be efficient? Okay. Well, yeah, no, we've done a lot of work, obviously with nut oils, where we're trying to get the, um, not obviously. I mean, only if you know me and have for years, is it obvious, but we do a lot of work with nut
+
+[28:36] oils, where we blend nuts, and we've done, we've done a bunch, right? Walnuts, pistachios, hazelnuts, Brazil nuts, macadamia nuts,
+
+[28:49] bunch of nuts, pecans, peanuts, which aren't nuts. And blend them, and then spin them in a center fuse to extract the oil. And it's, I wouldn't call it efficient, but it is, it is delicious. Um, I have spun, um, tomato paste, and it's not efficient at all, but that tiny bit
+
+[29:10] of uh, of juice that you get at the top of the tomato paste after you spin it is delicious. You tasted that right, size? That was good. You would like that. It's incredibly inefficient, though. Uh, well, and here, for more inefficiency, uh, uh, Tony
+
+[29:25] Kenaliaro, our buddy, uh, at 69 Colbert Grow, who I'm going to see, uh, this week, I guess he's going to be in New York before
+
+[29:31] Tales, although I don't know when. Uh, he uh, I'm Word Tales of the Cocktail, by the way, next week. I'm probably going to have to do that show from New Orleans. I gotta find out what my plan lands. He literally sticks whole olives in a centrifuge. Talk about paste and spins them and gets a ridiculously small amount of ridiculously delicious product.
+
+[29:50] I've never done bean puree. Your success is going to be based on 2 factors. One, how tightly bound is the water to the puree. And two, how much physical water is in the puree versus solids, because the centrifuge at 4000 times the force of gravity is only going to have a certain amount of separating capability.
+
+[30:08] So I guess the answer is not very helpful as it depends. Not very helpful, huh? You could also try to use something that breaks the puree down. If the puree is basically based on pectin. You can use an enzyme to break down the pectin and increase your yield. It'll be at the expense probably of the texture of the paste that's left over because you would want to be able to use both. Yeah? Okay. At cooking issues, heritage radio, where to eat in Chicago, coming from Dublin, Ireland, 1st time in
+
+[30:36] Chi Town. Where's interesting? Cheers. Well, unfortunately, I haven't been in a couple of years to Chicago, so I don't know what's hit and happened anymore. I mean, obviously, for the kind of work that we do, you're going to want to go to Alinia, but you got to book up kind of well in advance, right? Uh, and, uh, the problem is, is that a lot of the places that I really want to go in Chicago, I haven't gone
+
+[31:01] yet. Like, I haven't gone to aviary, and I'm just not I'm not plugged in in Chicago anymore, unfortunately. Um, because it's been it's been years and I'm loath to recommend places that I haven't been yet, right,
+
+[31:14] Stars? Is that fair? Fair. But I would like readers to, or answer back on the Twitter. Answer me back on the at cooking issues on the Twitter and get some recommendations for eating in Chicago.
+
+[31:30] Okay. Hey, Jack, you want to take one more commercial break? Yeah, give me one second. All right. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.
+
+[32:35] Is Jack Heritage Radio reminding all listeners that we are a 501 C3 nonprofit
+
+[32:41] organization and you can donate to become a member today by visiting Heritage Radio
+
+[32:45] Network.org. And welcome back. By the way, crazy guitar, right? Oh yeah. That's Tim Power going crazy. Man, he was a nutty guitarist. Any comments about the music from listeners on your end? No, nobody, nobody. Look, it's like, it's like a freak show's college band from 1991. They're like, okay, we'll put up with it. I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Yeah, pretty sure. Although, again, like one of the best parts about being in the Fallon
+
+[33:15] shows, getting to listen to the roots play, those guys are awesome. Did you get to hang out with Quest Love at all? I mean, look, those guys are busy. I mean, the way the way it works is, um, you know,
+
+[33:25] we, I wanted to, I wanted to do something with him. It's going to be up, I guess, on their blog on Thursday. Uh, but he likes uh, chocolate drinks, and this is his quote, not mine, so I don't want to hear anything. He also, like, he's accused of all by all of his buddies of liking his words, not mine, bitch drinks. And so, you know, he likes, he liked, uh, last time, chocolate flavors, and he liked, uh, kind of drinks a tasted lighter. So I wanted to make a drink. I want to make a drink for, you know, for him that it was also about the album that came out a year or 2 ago he did with Booker T, called The Road from Memphis, because obviously the bar's name is Booker Index,
+
+[34:02] my son's Booker, and, you know, Booker T, and Quest Love, and Chocolate, and
+
+[34:06] Bverage. So I made one and we did a little, he and I did a little segment that's going to be on Fallon's blog.
+
+[34:14] Or is it NBC's or Fallons? Found's blog sometime later this week. So yeah, I got to hang out a little bit. I think he liked the drink. He drank the he drank it. I met him at Milk Bar once. buying a lot of cookies. Really? Yeah. He's a nice guy. Yeah, really nice guy. Yeah. Impressive fro in the real life. Very, more impressive even in real life than it is on the uh, on the television. Anyway, got a question in, really interesting one. Actually, I'm just trying to find it on my machine here. From Mike. I've been reading a lot of Chinese cookbooks, and which is a good plan. I wonder which Chinese cookbooks you like. I've got to get the Fuchsia Dunlop books. I don't have those yet. But always a good plan reading Chinese cookbooks. Some talk about the importance of seasoning walks. The general method is to heat up oil and or lard and some sort of alium. Traditionally, garlic chies, but a combination of scallion and ginger is also recommended. They say that the heating process opens the pores of the metal. The aromatics permeate the metal, and the whole process helps create a nonstick surface. Could you please talk a bit about seasoning a pan? Is it crap, or is it something I should be doing? And if so, do you have a better method? Thanks, Mike. Excellent question. So, the last time I spent a lot of time researching, seasoning in general is when I did a post years ago on cast iron
+
+[35:44] pants in general, cast iron pants. Uh, and seasoning is not uh, crap. Seasoning is actually important. And there's a slight debate in the community about what exactly is going on when you're seasoning a pan. I think pretty much, for me, the accepted reason, seasoning a pan is that you are creating, you put a thin layer of oil and
+
+[36:14] then, or, you know, fat, and when you heat it, the fat is breaking down and
+
+[36:18] polymerizing and forming a basically a polymerized oil film on top of the pan.
+
+[36:26] It's binding with the pan and it's that surface that is nonstick. Okay? And also, you know, black. You know, you have it there because it's black or it's brown. And it's the same sort of reaction that
+
+[36:40] happens in oil paint when oil paints are dry, right? They use in oil paints, they use specifically something called a drying oil because it polymerizes and forms this kind of solid network.
+
+[36:51] If you've ever seen vegetable oil that's spilled on a surface or been allowed to stay on a surface for a long
+
+[36:57] time and it forms that yellow gunk, right? Stach, you know I'm talking about that yellow gunk, that is partially polymerized oil.
+
+[37:06] And so that's what's going on. And it works. Now, there's a there's a, um, another group that thinks it's a different kind of oxidized, uh, iron that's the same. It's what is it called? magnetite, whatever it is, that is the another form of iron oxide, that's not rust, that's protective, and it's a similar one that they use when you're bluing guns, blue, you know, blue steel for
+
+[37:31] bluing guns, similar sort of thing. I don't think that's the case. I think it's a polymerized oil. Now, in a pen, when you're seasoning, a couple of things are important. First is that you want to, a lot of people debate whether or not a particular kind of oil is more or less
+
+[37:47] important. I don't really think it's that big of a deal. What you want to make sure of, is that you don't put a thin, a thick, sick, sick gloppy layer of oil on it when you're seasoning it. And the reason is that if you do, it's
+
+[38:00] gonna form thicker layers and those layers will partially polymerize, but they're never going to be as tough or as uniform as lots of thin layers built
+
+[38:11] up. And, uh, if you, um, If you, and you'll see this, if you let a thin layer thick there, when you, when you start, when you start scraping it down with a spatula, you'll, uh,
+
+[38:22] you'll dig into it and and pieces of the seasoning will flake up and that's not considered good.
+
+[38:28] So that's why there's a lot of rubbing with paper towels. That's why when you're seasoning a pot in the oven, they turn them upside down so that any oil that is free that's not been wiped around enough drips off of the pan before it gets
+
+[38:41] to polymerize and forms kind of little crappy spots. All right? So, I mean, the classic technique is multiple coatings of
+
+[38:50] oil in an oven that is hotter than frying temperature.
+
+[38:55] So like 450 I usually use something like that. Or like if you're seasoning a griddle, I can season it directly. I can even season pans on a flame as long as you don't heat them up too much because, you know, you can burn the seasoning off of a pan if
+
+[39:08] you if you put it at like 650, a self-clean cycle in an oven, you can burn the seasoning off of a pan.
+
+[39:13] Uh, although I don't know the exact temperature. Now, the interesting thing about the, uh, the, the onions, the alliums, when you're seasoning a wok, and I looked into this. Before I get into the seasoning of the alley with the walk, let me say this. I don't have a lot of experience, because another thing I was interested in walks, when question came in, is, you know, what's the difference? Is there a difference in cooking capabilities or style or feel between a traditional
+
+[39:42] hand-hammered walk, which is made by taking a sheet of steel and hammering it into a walk shape, or a spun walk, where basically they take the disk and press it between, you know, wooden chucks and spin it fast and then use a stick to push the walk down into a walk shape, or a stamped walk, which is basically just, you know, a big hydraulic press, boom,
+
+[40:07] stamps stamps out the walk. And I don't know if there's a difference and I wasn't able to find any sort of difference online. Now, there is a possibility, and you mentioned in your question, porosity. And I think it is, no one has, I don't remember, because it's been a long time since I researched, but I don't think
+
+[40:26] that, that, I don't know what the difference is in porosity between different things. But I will say this. The surface of the pan does make a difference in how something works when it cooks. And let's go back to regular cast iron pans, which I have a lot more experience with. Modern cast iron cookware that is produced is basically straight from the cast. So if you look at the surface of a cast iron pen. It's got a little bit of, I don't know, hard to say. Like, you know, I'm talking about a little rough sandpapery look to it. Uh, and uh, I don't like that, right? That's always got that little bit of a rough feel. Some people think that's going to actually enhance the nonstickness because it decreases the actual area of contact of the food with the pan,
+
+[41:12] which therefore less area to stick. That's why certain nonstick pans have those little dimples in the bottom. I think it's a horrible idea. The pans I like were sanded to show a bare metal surface at the
+
+[41:26] bottom, something that they call polishing, but you could literally just take like a sander or a grinder to get that kind of sandpaper, that sandpaper feel finish off the bottom of it.
+
+[41:34] And those things take seasoning like a mother, and they come out like a black piece of glass. They're so slick and my cast iron that is, you know, at least 50 years old that was made that way is the is the cast iron in my place that is the best in terms of uh
+
+[41:55] non-non-stickness. It's just, it's great. And another thing, by the way, back to walks. When you're looking at a walk, some people are worried about using a metal spatula with their cast iron, don't be worried about it.
+
+[42:06] In fact, with a walk, you're always using a cast iron. It actually helps to knock a little bit. If you have a good seasoning on it, using something metal will help to knock little bits that will stick off and build up on
+
+[42:16] your products. Don't worry about that. But the interesting part of your question. It's something I hadn't thought about was the reaction of the chives or garlic chives with the pan. And I don't think that it's horse hockey. I think that there's something to it, but because I watched a couple videos of people seasoning walks online. Here's a couple of things. First, uh, uh, 1st of all, most people don't cook with uh, a cut with carbon knives
+
+[42:42] anymore, with knives in other words that will stain that aren't stainless. I have a couple in my house because I happen to like them. Everyone who has a carbon steel knife, one that, you know, will rust will tell you that when you're cutting an onion. Uh, that onion will taste bad, especially if there's uh, if it's not properly, like, you know what? I got a quick call. take the call in and then I'll go back to onions and knives and walk these because it's super interesting at least to me, hopefully to somebody else. Color, you're on the air. Hey, hey, Dave, it's Brian. San Francisco. are you? Doing well yourself. Good, good. Um, I wanted to thank you for answering my question about sugars uh, a couple weeks ago, and so now I'm, I'm no longer paranoid about Nutra Suite and uh, all the, uh, the artificial sugars. Good, and your wife's okay with it. everyone's good. She hasn't dropped it yet. No, good, good, good. I had some nutris for you last night and I'm not dead. What? I had some nutrisweet just last night and I haven't died yet. Well, maybe you should, maybe they'll take another couple days. We'll see. Well, to be honest, though, though, but back on that, that's not actually, like, the fact that we haven't died yet isn't necessarily a good argument because there are things. I'm not saying Neutral Street's one of them, because I don't think it is. There are things that take 20 years to kill you, like asbestos. Anyway, go ahead. Right, or Mad Cow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there you go. Um, so my question has to do with the, uh, uh, I was reading the modernist cuisine and they recommended, um, putting a slab
+
+[44:13] of like quarter, a quarter inch or 3 quarter inch, um, aluminum into your oven as a
+
+[44:19] half for pizzas. And I know you have some experience with them, um, packing your oven, but, uh,
+
+[44:26] I I don't want to just completely destroy and just, um, dismember mine. So I'm wondering what you think about that as a, as a, a better, um, technique than, um, than a pizza stone. Hmm. So wait, they're telling you to put, they're telling you to put the pizza directly onto the aluminum. Exactly. Huh. Well, I've never tried it. I mean, here's the basic theory of operation. Have you ever filled, okay, so if you have an oven that doesn't have a lot, a lot of power in it, and you fill that oven with stones, not just
+
+[44:59] like one pizza stone, but a lot. You'll notice that it takes a long, long, long, long time for your oven to heat up because
+
+[45:07] you have to put a lot. it's taking a lot of power to heat up those stones. Do you know what I'm saying? So I once had an oven that I, yeah, like a long time. I had an oven. I completely lined the inside, almost like it was a masonry oven, and ours it would take to heat up. Uh, and, um, so maybe they're thinking that's not a good tack to take with your oven. Aluminum. How thick were they saying? They were saying 3 quarters inch, but then I was reading Egola and Nathan said, oh, you could go down to a quarter inch. No, I don't know, but here's the aluminum just because it's light. Right. Aluminum. Well, here's a couple of things. So what you want to do with the crust, I'm assuming their theory of operation is they want to put a big and instantaneous heat wallop into the bottom of the crust, right?
+
+[45:53] Now, aluminum is a super fast conductor, one of the best.
+
+[46:01] You know, it's like right up there with copper, not as good as copper, but right up there. in terms of heat. And, uh, the the issue with it is, is that it doesn't store. It transmits heat very quickly, but it doesn't store heat very well because
+
+[46:18] it just does it. lighter, right? So it doesn't have as much mass. And, you know, and it doesn't take that much energy to heat up a block of aluminum.
+
+[46:30] So the advantage is your oven will heat it very quickly compared to other things. It will heat very evenly, right? And whatever heat energy is in it will be delivered to your pizza very quickly. And it also won't cool down that
+
+[46:44] much because the oven can supply heat to it fairly quickly as well. So unlike a pizza stone, if you're going to make a bunch of pizzas with a pizza stone, you'll notice that it starts lagging after a couple of pizzas because you've exhausted the heat that is at the surface of the
+
+[47:02] stone and it's taking a long time for it to kind of replenish that heat because the stone doesn't heat up very quickly, whereas aluminum heat's extremely
+
+[47:10] quickly. Now, I just, I'm sure because, you know, those guys are good at that, I'm sure those guys did the calculation of how much heat is really necessary to deliver to your pizza on an instantaneous basis to get that good
+
+[47:24] crust, that good boost on the crust. And that's why they're getting whatever thickness of aluminum it is that they're
+
+[47:30] getting is so that there's enough energy in that ingot to zap your crust
+
+[47:35] fast. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. Does it make a difference, the kind of metal? Yeah, copper would be better. Well, I mean, really expensive. You know what I mean? Yeah, obviously it's bottle copper, then you, you know. Yeah, and heavy. Uh, and heavy. No, awful. No, stainless steel work? Yeah, awful. No, terrible. Yeah, stainless terrible. So, like, I like, uh, when I was testing, uh, um, like before I was making my own red hot pokers for drinks, I would have, uh, slugs of different metals that I was using to heat over a flame and
+
+[48:09] then, and then heat drinks with, and stainless was just awful. It's a slow conductor, uh, of it's a very slow conductor of heat compared even to uh, iron. Very slow. Yeah, it's just, it has the advantage of being non-reactive. is all it's got. It's expensive, it's heavy and it's slow. Uh, you know, which is why your good pot. are, you know, have a big chunk of aluminum in the bottom of them, and, you know, or copper, and then like a layer of stainless that your food actually touches, it's probably quite thin. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, stainless terrible. You think this would be good for bread in addition to, uh, in addition to pizza or it would be too hot for bread? Ah, no, I mean, no, I think it would probably work. It would depend on what temperature. I mean, obviously you're not cranking your oven as high on, you're not cranking your oven as high for bread as you are for a pizza. Uh, I, it's been many years since I've done very thorough research on
+
+[49:13] um, bread baking and crust interaction. So I'd have to figure out whether you're actually getting any sort of benefit from the masonry surface other than the delivery of
+
+[49:23] heat. But I don't see why it wouldn't. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I don't see why it would work. But if you can afford the thicker one, I would get the thicker one. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you look online, go to macmaster.com. It's not cheap, but they, uh, it's easy to uh, obtain aluminum from them, and you can uh, figure
+
+[49:48] out, there's a, there's a, uh, you know, most of this stuff goes by weight, but then sometimes there's a
+
+[49:53] price uh, break where if you start getting it thicker, all of a sudden the price jumps more than just the weight jump.
+
+[49:59] And so you can kind of see where that sweet spot is. I looked it up a while ago and I think it's somewhere around half inch that starts getting expensive to get bigger
+
+[50:07] slabs, at least normally. Or if, you know, if you, if you have a car and you live, uh, you know, outside of the major city, you could probably just go to aluminum
+
+[50:17] supply, uh, and get it. But McMasterCar, they're everywhere, you could at least get an idea of prices. They're about 30% more than they should be at McMasterCar, but it'll give you an idea. Okay, great. Thanks. Do you think I should season it? Aluminum or our previous question? No, no, aluminum? No. No. Okay. Yeah. It forms its own oxide and it's not, you're not going to be able to do anything good with it. Okay, great. Ain't no problem. You too. Jack says we have one more minute. Oh, one more minute. All right, so when you take a carbon steel knife and cut through an onion. You'll see that it picks up a flavor, right? The onion picks up a flavor and the onion tastes onion tastes bad. And I did some more research and old timers used to rub onions on their knives to develop a patina on the knife.
+
+[51:02] And I looked on the web and people are now for kind of environmentally friendly corrosion
+
+[51:07] inhibitors making garlic extracts that they rub on knives as corrosion inhibitors on knives.
+
+[51:14] So there is, and it's basically these sulfur compounds that are in, that are in onions, in alliums, in
+
+[51:21] scallions, that are interacting with iron, right, to inhibit corrosion in on a knife, but they also take up the bad flavors into the
+
+[51:33] onions themselves. This is apparently the theory of operation in the stainless steel anti onion smell on your hand thing, but I don't know if those work because those are stainless.
+
+[51:40] It'd probably be better off using carbon steel blocks instead of stainless steel blocks to get rid of the onion flavor.
+
+[51:45] So there is an interaction between onions and iron. The other thing is, is that if you look at people on the web seasoning with the chives, it's basically a way to scrape around and also move oil around so that oil is not sitting in one place. So the chives are, these like chives, the long chives or garlic chives are, one, kind of interacting with the metal, taking metal away from it. I don't think it's adding a good flavor to the pan. I think it's removing bad flavors from the pan, right? And absorbing those bad flavors onto the onion, absorbing, you know, any sort of free iron that's on the surface of it. Now, the other thing is, is that instead of onions, which don't act this way, the scallion things, because they're like paper, when they wilt, they're almost like a scrubby
+
+[52:31] pad that you're using along with the metal spatula to move the oil around so that you're not getting
+
+[52:35] a caked on pieces of oil anywhere. So, uh, the theory is they're um, interacting with the metal to remove stuff that you don't want that's on there, and they're pushing the oil around
+
+[52:43] in uh, in a nice way such that you have a nice, even coating all the way around the pen. My bet, this is a good way to season it. Now, why scallions and not something like garlic,
+
+[52:54] I don't know, I haven't used that much garlic chives with this sort of thing. I mean, I've used them, but not that much. If you were to do this with garlic, it would make a scorched, awful flavor, which would probably mess with you and mess with your
+
+[53:04] pambit. But Chives don't have an awful flavor once they get charred. And so you can continue to use those chives all the way up until the char point, which is where around where you're going to want to
+
+[53:15] be to get accurate seasoning of the pan to get it nice and black. And there you have it. Cooking and dude.
+
+[53:27] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. get it straight
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[0:22] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans, Louisiana. Nastasia, as always, is back in Bushwick, Bushwick, Brooklyn, or Berber's Pizzeria, with Jack and Joe and the rest of the Heritage Radio gang. How you doing, guys? Good, good. Nastasia was just telling me how much she likes Brooklyn. Yeah? No, I wasn't. Really? Were you actually saying that or is it more anti-hister vitriol? That was a lie. It was a lie. I said, they're having their block party, and I said, I wish I liked Brooklyn so that I could come. Well, let's push their block party. When's the block party? on Saturday. You know what? We'll play the block party commercial. on one of the breaks. It's it's a trip. Yeah, yeah. All right. Block party. If you like going to Brooklyn, and you like block parties, 2 things I actually detest because being outside in the daytime and like large groups of people,
+
+[1:18] like I detest when they shut down, no offense to people who love it, but I detest like street fairs in New York when they shut down whole avenues, and then you like walk up and down and tell the
+
+[1:26] people. You hate that tuna stasia, right? Yeah, hate it. My friends love it. I hate it too. Yeah, it sucks. I mean, who needs it? I can go to a regular store and buy a pair of socks. Isn't that what they sell there? Yeah, but the corn, the corn, I must, is pretty good. Like the corn and butter and chili sauce. All the rape stuff. Yeah. Yeah, arape a fine product, bad name. Yeah, okay. I'll hand it to you on that, but, uh, yeah. The shirts and the sauce. Yeah, all right. Yeah, but all the all the people, and then like, I always need to, we always need to move equipment whenever there's one of those things and then you hit them and then the traffic is insane and all this
+
+[2:01] other, eh, eh. Why doesn't anyone just set up a shop to sell a rapis and corn a real freaking shop? And then you would know, hey, I want like a giant thing of corn dipped in butter with some spice sprayed at that
+
+[2:14] thing, and I could just go to the shop and get that thing. You know what I mean? They have to pay rent at a shop. They, you know, the street fare. There's plenty of things that you have to pay rent for that people go and shop for and purchase. Why not corn? Right, yeah. How much how much is one of those years of corn at the at the thing? say a dollar. It's a dollar? Yeah, come on. I mean, that doesn't cost them almost nothing. I'm sure. I guess the problem is it is seasonal because you're only getting corn in the summer and then what do
+
+[2:39] you what are you dipping butter for the rest of the year? don't know. You know what I mean? Like they don't want to move to like a frozen ear of corn situation. Those things are always disappointing. The frozen ear of corn. you ever had that? You buy the frozen ear of corn in the supermarket and then you try and cook it and you hope it's going to be as good as corn is, you know, in like July, August, but it
+
+[2:57] isn't. No. No, it don't start. You haven't started already, don't start now. How's New Orleans? I mean, I literally, you know, got here, checked into the hotel and then, you know, started doing the research for the show. It's, you know, like you'd expect, hot as hell. Humid, humid. And a cocktail people have already descended. So for those of you who don't know, every year, right around now, there's Tales of the Cocktail, which for the cocktail industry is the biggest kind of, it's the biggest event of the year.
+
+[3:25] you know, like a huge chunk of the kind of whatever you want to call them, cocktail intelligence, whatever the hell you want to call them, from all over the country. In fact, the world, fly in here to learn from each other and, I guess, drink a lot. And they have it in New Orleans in the middle of the summer because no one else wants to be
+
+[3:45] here. And only the cocktail people are dumb enough to come to New York in the, uh, come to New Orleans
+
+[3:50] rather in the middle of the summer when it's a 1000000000 degrees and 100% humidity. But, uh, the advantages hotels are cheap right now. Hotels are cheap here. It's like a 100 bucks a night to stay in New Orleans right now. Nastasia, not a big fan. Not a big fan. Not a big fan. Okay. Now, two, oh, by the way, calling your questions live two, 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. I believe we still have an open line to take a call earn even though I am using one to call in from my hotel room. Uh, for, yeah. 1st question from Fred. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Indie Jesus, and all the rest, which by the way, just say, Joe, you don't see all the rest. This is like, this is like one of those situations, uh, this is one of those situations like with the, with the, with the skipper and Mary
+
+[4:35] Ann, with the, with the Gilligans Island, where all they had to do was say one last person, and instead they just say the rest. It's Joe. But they might be on like back podcasts and they haven't caught up yet, you know? Yeah, yeah. All right. Anyway. And remember, Indy Jesus is no longer part of our of our... on the old podcast. might be catching up. Right. Right, right. So you know, Indie Jesus, because he hates Nastasia has quit the shift that's on Tuesdays. We might have to switch our radio show day to match up Indie Jesus's
+
+[5:05] Sunday, Sunday, you know. Sunday, that hour. It's crazy that Jesus works on Sunday though. Anyway, okay. Fred writes in. I recently picked up a turkey roaster. It's a Hamilton Beach model 32503. Is it possible to deep fry one of those things. How good is the temperature control? Thanks, Fred. Okay, so what we're talking about are these ovens that, well, kind of ovens? They look like giant crock pots. Um, this one uh, I looked it up. 18 quart, which is, I think one of the standard sizes. This particular model discontinued. Uh, but they have a pan that you can pull out and wash out. You throw the turkey on top of a rack into the pan, and you roast your turkey, and it theoretically, it's faster. Also, it frees up your oven so that you can, on Thanksgiving time, use your oven for all the rest of the nonsense that you need your oven for and cook your turkey in
+
+[5:52] this in this kind of basically this in-quotes oven. It's kind of like, you know, like a Dutch, it's like cooking in a Dutch oven with its own, its own heat source. Um, and I think I mentioned on the show once or twice that I had one of those that I bought at a thrift shop from the, you know, it was from the 60s or something like
+
+[6:09] that, and I bought it in a thrift shop in college, and I used to bake bread in it. And I loved it. was great. It smells horrible because there was something wrong with the insides of it, but it still worked great and it made great bread. Well, great bread for that. Great bread for a dorm room. Let's put it that way. I mean, I don't, you know, not great bread compared to what our listeners think of as great bread. anyway. Will it work as a deep fryer? It clearly gets hot enough to work as a deep fryer, and I looked up the wattage
+
+[6:33] on a representative one. I couldn't find the exact one to find the wattage, but the wattage is somewhere in the area of 1400 watts. Uh, and uh, you know, I doubt you're going to find a uh, fryer that plugs into a normal socket that's much higher than that. Like maybe it will go up to 1500 watts, maybe a little bit higher, but none of the electric
+
+[6:53] plug-in fryers really have as many watts as I would want them to have.
+
+[6:58] Uh, to, because the key for uh, frying is, of course, uh, fast uh, recovery. Now, uh, Now, the way that these things work is there, the pan uh, that you put into it with the, with the turkey in it rests on the plate that's actually doing the heating. So you're going to have some issue about some heat loss in between the plate and the and the pan. But I'm mostly worried about stuff falling to the bottom and scorching on the bottom as the heater clicks off and on. I don't think the heating control is going to be very accurate at all. But I don't think it's that necessary to have super accurate heat for deep frying, but I think your main problem is going to be scorching of particles on the bottom because a fryer that's really, really good at its
+
+[7:42] chub isn't going to be heating the electrical element. not going to be the very bottom of the unit. The element will be floating somewhat above the surface of the oil. such that particles can fall underneath it and not scorch on the thing that's actually being heated. It's a better way, defy, especially, it doesn't matter so much if you're doing something like donuts because donuts don't throw off a lot of little particles. But if you're doing something like chicken in a batter, and the batter's going to fall off, those little bits of flour get burnt and
+
+[8:10] are going to get massy against the bottom of the pan. That said, it should work. I do not think anyone will actually recommend that you do it because I'm sure the insurance on a fryer is a lot more and you want to make sure you don't have it overflow and ignite and or burn you or scorch you or anything like that. So I'm not going to make any claims to the safety of it, but I mean, it should be able to do an okay job. Now here's the other problem. Uh, 1400 watts is going to be enough power for a small, small fryer to get up really
+
+[8:40] hot really fast, but 1400 watts distributed over something the size of an 18 quart
+
+[8:46] uh, roasting oven is not going to be that much power. And in the end, so even though it's fairly powerful for what would be a home fryer. It's a lot bigger than what a home fryer would be. And so I think it's going to be sucking wind when you throw stuff in it. So if you were to heat it up the temperature and only throw a couple little things in. You might be able to get good results, but I would bet that if you really loaded it down
+
+[9:06] with like, you know, like, you know, a whole fried chicken or something like that, that the temperature would drop drastically and that
+
+[9:12] you'd have some problems. But that's just my guess. If you, um, if you, it is powerful enough for you and you just don't think the temperature control is good enough, you could buy a simple PID, uh, you know, paid temperature
+
+[9:24] controller, and uh, and a thermocouple, and bypass the thermostat entirely. Just plug it. you don't want PID. You got to switch it, turn it off of PID, which is going to be a very accurate temperature control. And for deep frying, you want on off. But most good PID controllers that you buy, you can turn them into on off controllers, right? So PID controller, like it's just going to slowly get up to the temperature and not overshoot. You don't care if you overshoot a little bit. You just want it to get up there fast. So as soon as the temperature of the oil drops, you want it to go on full blast. But then you could have an external control that can be very accurate and well, it's accurate as an on off or bang, bang, thermostat can be. And that wouldn't add that much to the cost, but you might have a power problem. What do you think stars? This is a good answer. Good answer. All right. From Colin, dearest y'all. Could you revive this question? Are pressure cooked jams a good idea? So I had to go back. Uh, I think it was in May and found uh, Collins question on pressure cooked jams. A few weeks ago. Um, I bought a whole boatload of uh, kumquats uh, and made marmalade and then they wanted, he wanted to know, could marmalade
+
+[10:31] or jam, jam in general, be prepared in a pressure cooker to prevent the loss of volatile flavors because he realized that the smell that he
+
+[10:38] was uh, that was coming off of the pot was a smell that was being lost,
+
+[10:43] right? That's the theory, right? Uh, and so, basically, he says, what I understand is happening is that the boiling temperature of the uh, marmalade or jam solution increases as water is being boiled off, and that's stopping at a particular temperature and a pressure
+
+[10:57] cook. I mean, sorry, stopping at a particular temperature when you're cooking a jam is equivalent to stopping at a particular hydration level or amount of water or, you know, or
+
+[11:06] the solid level is in it. Uh, and that we add extra water to a jam recipe because the
+
+[11:11] pected needs time uh, to cook and break out, um, and, and there, there you have it. So the question is, could he seal the mixture in a pressure cooker and cook the jam without losing water or volatiles and get an equivalent texture with improved
+
+[11:27] flavor? The boiling temperature will increase at the increased pressure. But do you think that will affect the pectin slash, you know, properties of the jam overall? I suppose there could be more thermal breakdown, a flavor in a pressure cooker, uh, despite the decreased loss of volatiles, what are my thoughts? Okay. Well, if you're going to do it, this 1st of all, here's the here's the issue. If you knew, uh, I'd have to do some research and maybe during the commercial break, I can look it up because I forgot to look it up, but you need, what you need to know is the actual solids level of the
+
+[11:59] uh, jam that you're, that you're shooting for. If the solids level, the bricks is reasonable. Like in the, on the order of 60% or, or, or thereabouts. Uh, 70% even, then you could, uh, probably just add the ingredients to a jar in a pressure cooker,
+
+[12:21] uh, seal it. So even if you had a venting pressure cooker, which I don't like using, I like using non-venting pressure cookers in general because they, I think they do a better job with flavor. But if you're sealing in a canning jar, it doesn't make much difference. Uh, and and pressure cook it, uh, at that higher temperature, you could conceivably get
+
+[12:42] uh, a product that will work. But you have to know beforehand what the solid level of the fruit pulp
+
+[12:52] is, and then therefore calculate how much sugar to add to it, and you'd have to get it fairly accurate. Uh, that is all doable. And if, I don't know, maybe if Jack or Joe has the time to research while we're talking the bricks level, BRI, X level of
+
+[13:08] jam or jelly, we could do a ballpark estimate of whether or not it's feasible to just add all the ingredients, sugar, fruit,
+
+[13:17] et cetera, into a jar and pressure cook it. But I mean, it might be possible. I don't know. It would be difficult because you'd have to make sure you got it right every time. Does that make sense? Yeah, you have a color. Oh, color, you are on the air. Hey, Dave. Hey, Jack. Hey, Stas. How it going? This is Matt from, this is Matt from Chicago. Howdy. Hi, I had a question about low temperature cooking of skirt steak. Um, I tried it. sous vide with a recipe I found on the web and it was as tough as had I cooked it for, you know, over
+
+[13:50] a flame for hours. I'm wondering if you had any ideas on how to get better results. Give me the recipe that you used. You know, I don't remember. That's the problem. I think it was the one on the polyscience website. How long did you cook it? Jeez, it seems like maybe 2 hours. Yeah. And uh, so he, here's, here's the thing. So if you're cooking a skirt steak. Uh, I like to do skirt steak, uh, low temp, but what temperature you cook the skirt steak to is entirely
+
+[14:25] dependent upon how long you cook it, right? So if you're only going to cook the skirt steak for a couple of hours, you're going to need to go fairly high. Like, uh, uh, 57 Celsius, let's say, which is a good number, 57 Celsius. If you're going to do it for like an hour or 45 minutes or an hour and a half like that. Then you have to cool it down and then sear it, because the skirt steak is so thin that if you, um, if you were to try to sear it directly out of the circulator, just overcook and you might as well not have done low temp at
+
+[14:55] all. Okay? Okay, I think I did. I think I did see it afterwards immediately. Yeah. I mean, you have to see it afterwards, really, or the texture is not going to be very, very good. You know, but, you know, go ahead. Yeah, the other way to do it is to cook it down near where you'd cook a ribeye. So like 55 Uh, for a long time, like uh, 9, 9, 10 hours. Uh, or, you know, and then let it, let it cool down again, and then uh, just take it and hard, hard sear it, and that will actually warm up the inside and overcook the outside a little bit, but that's going to give a really, really high quality tender skirt steak.
+
+[15:37] Okay. If you, the alternative, right, is to sear it
+
+[15:43] beforehand like it's a normal skirt steak, and then just quickly throw it into, into, uh, into like
+
+[15:50] a, uh, a bag and uh, let it, let it come up the temp in a circulator. The problem is your crust isn't going to be that great afterwards. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's really a good candidate. It isn't a good candidate for the double seer. I take it. Or is it? Well, you can't, you can't. I've done a double seer on it, and what the advantage of the double seer is that the 2nd time you sear it, it's going to color and crust up really quickly.
+
+[16:15] Um, but, you know, then you, you might, might run the problem that, you know, something goes wrong and you,
+
+[16:21] and you, um, uh, and you, you know, dry it out a little bit. I would definitely not on skirt steak pre-sear it before you low temp it. Um, because it's going to cure through fairly quickly with the salt. I would definitely, I mean, pepper is fine or whatever or whatever marinade you want, but I would not, uh, I would not salt it, um, until right before the 2nd seer. Okay, that's interesting. I actually use a lime juice in my marinade and it just makes it absolutely delicious. And I usually just do it the standard, you know, just
+
+[16:53] see it in a real hot pan after it's marinated a while and don't even bother with low temp, but I figured I'd try it. I've got a I got a rig in my basement for, for low temp cooking, for sous vide, and I figured I'd try it because, you know, I'm trying everything sous vide now that I got the rig. Uh, and some things have turned out really good, but the skirt steak is one thing that did not. And I was just curious if you had any thoughts. So, I appreciate it. Here, here, here's who it is. Do this and you're going to, you're going to love this. This is what this is the way that I actually cook skirt steak, right? I would do it. I would not sear it beforehand. Uh, I would do your, do your, your marinade or whatever else you want to do, put it in the bag, cook it. If you don't have the time, 57 for, like I say, like an hour,
+
+[17:34] so, or like 55 for longer, like six, seven, whatever hours, it's going to get more
+
+[17:39] tender. Let it cool down, and then you can even have it in the fridge, pull it out, and do your hard sear on it, just like you were cooking it normally, and what you'll just
+
+[17:47] have is you can focus on that crust, and you just have a much more tender skirt steak on the inside than you would with a normal cooking technique.
+
+[17:53] I'll give that a shot, then. Alrighty, let us know how it worked. All right, thanks a lot, guys. We'll talk to you later. Hi, no, bro. You have another call, Dave. What? You have another call. Okay, call her, you're on the air. Hi, yeah, afternoon. are you? I'm doing all right. All right, so, um, I'm a bit of a home brewer, and, um, I've been doing a little bit of shopping on modernist pantry,
+
+[18:18] and, um, I've been I've been referred to you, uh, to a solution for a problem that I've been having. Um I've been working on making cream liqueur. Um, and uh, I've purchased some sodium quesinate, um, from the modernist pantry, and I, I was initially under the impression that that might help me to combine my dairy with my alcohol that I've been producing. And it, it, it's stable for a little while, but I'll let it sit out at room
+
+[18:47] temperature for about 6 hours, and I put it next to a very small amount of already store-bought cream liqueur, and the
+
+[18:56] store-bought Cream liqueur remains stable. However, um, mine, it doesn't split, uh, per se, the, um, the dairy molecules from the water molecules. Um, it just separates into layers as as a thicker, um, homogenized cream on the top and a more watery, less viscous liquid on the bottom. Um, I'm I'm doing further research and I'm I'm finding out that. uh, glycerol, uh, monastery might help me out, GSM, um, but I was wondering if you had any advice as far as to how I would implement the GSM, if I were to obtain some, and if I may be using the, uh, the sodium
+
+[19:46] case incorrectly. Okay, well, I, I, uh, I mean, I have a lot of uh, experience with emulsified alcoholic beverages, but not making cream
+
+[19:59] liquors uh, as such. Uh, what, what, you're using actual cream? With fatness? I did one batch with a little with a splash of cream, and then I did another batch with a splash of milk. Um, I also tried to use making my own, uh, uh, condensed cream and using condensed, like, uh, you know, with, I, I think I used malt, malt powder, a little bit of sugar, and milk, and a little bit of vanilla, and
+
+[20:28] I made, like, a condensed, condensed milk, and you just tried to use that. I thought maybe the sugar would be a decent buffer to help bind the dairy to the liquor. Um, I don't know if maybe my alcohol content is something that might be affecting
+
+[20:41] it. I'm at about 22% alcohol content. So I'm not sure. But you're, you're, you're, yeah, so you're not curdling it all. You're just getting phase separation. Yes. Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm guessing that, I mean, I don't, I've never researched like, uh, like Bailey's or anything like that, uh, to
+
+[21:02] see like what the fat content of Bailey's is. But if you're getting a phase separation, it just sounds like you need an emulsifier in there. Um, you know, uh, and you know, what you're mentioning is, you know,
+
+[21:16] is an emulsifier, the one that I typically use in, uh, in the drinks at Booker and
+
+[21:22] Dax, is probably won't work for your application, uh, or it might, is a mixture, and this is not what the
+
+[21:29] cream liqueur people use at all, but is a mixture of, it's gum Arabic, which acts as an emulsifier, and
+
+[21:36] Xanthan, which acts as a stabilizer. Now, you probably want to go to kind of a more of a hardcore, uh, emulsifier. When you get when you when the face when you get the face separation, if you just rock it back and forth, does it go back together
+
+[21:49] or no? It, uh, I've actually, it does to an extent, but I think it's more of like the temperature that it's been sitting at for a while because all the ingredients, I'm, I'm mixing them sort of like the dairy is just from the fridge.
+
+[22:06] You know, I haven't gone. I haven't been able to sit down and test it from letting the dairy sit out at room temperature. I also found that heat became a factor in the initial combination. Uh, it was important that the that the dairy was warm. in order to get the emulsification to work initially. Um, and then once it cools down and it sits and it settles at room temperature for a while. It eventually separates. Um, and I can get it to come back together. But then once I let it sit for about another half hour after, you know,
+
+[22:37] uh, spinning it back together, it'll separate again. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I, like, uh, this is an interesting thing. I should know, I should know this, just because of, you know, what I do for a living. So what I what I'm going to do is I'm going to figure out what they do in the industry to make cream liqueurs and whether or not the, what the fat level, if any, is of those things and kind of figure out how they do it. Uh, and then I'll come back probably not next week because next week, I don't know if I'm going to be able to have the, the radio show because I'm going to be in the air on the way to um, California, I think. But the week after that, I'm going to come back and answer that question. I'll give you a much more definitive answer, okay? Okay. Um, and if, uh, if by chance are you, you are in the city right now, right? I'm in New Orleans, the Tales of the Cocktail. Oh, you. Oh, okay. I was under the impression that you were in in Manhattan or in New York City. Um, all right. Um, well, would it, would you be able to also, I mean, I know that you say you're going to be going back on the air with these answers, but
+
+[23:37] was there really any way you might be able to contact me directly? Uh, it's possible. Give uh, when you, when you go off, give uh, give Jack uh, your info or maybe we could uh, tweet it out or something like that, alright? All right. Thank you very much for your time. Lastly, do you would you think that if I were to purchase some closer on monastery? Do you think that that might be a decent avenue to approach? I just don't, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to say yes or no off the top of my head
+
+[24:05] without, uh, really doing the research on it. All right. Thank you very much for your time. Hi, cool. All right, so right before we take a break. Right before we take the break. Joe, uh, Gargano writes in, by the way, is from New Haven, which is where the, anyway, so Jack wanted to know, does anyone want the Pluto, the,
+
+[24:26] the, the music from my college days? And we got the 1st person in says that they like that. He hears what he writes. I wrote a few months back about soy whipped cream. Your advice helped, and I made some adjustment. It turns out that soft tofu, coconut milk, and some stabilizers works great right out of the siphon, the whipped cream siphon. But more importantly, I want more Bluto. This crap is heavy. Do we have a link to any of this anywhere? So Jack, we have someone that wants the blue, though. Wow. There it is. So when you return... Yeah. Unfortunately, Joel, no Pluto today because it's only on my iPhone and we don't have it actually copied over
+
+[25:01] on to the Heritage Radio. So we're going to have to go because enough of the cheesy jazz. No offense, I like jazz. Plus, he also wants pictures of me getting my face smashed in on stage, which I don't think actually
+
+[25:13] exists. unfortunately. But, you know, he wants like stage diving picks and stuff like that. And then he, he, his suggestion is that we start a band where, uh, you know, I guess he's going to come in and start, start a band with us where we write about my art reactions
+
+[25:27] in Agar, Agar clarification. And he wants to call it my art and the reactors. He's going to let me have bass solos and every song, but he only wants to do it if we can get ND Jesus to be the front man. What do you think, Jack? We'll have to say that's going to be tough. in high demand. Yeah, I'm sure every band in Bushwick wants Indie Jesus as the front man. Why wouldn't they? Yeah, right? I mean, even Nastasia would go to see Indie Jesus as a front man and she hates hipster bands. Love bands. Nastasia, by the way, like her, one of her great lifetime skills is to be able to get into any any concert for free and go backstage without having to perform any sort of awful
+
+[26:04] acts. I retired that. You're tired, but it's like it's a, you know, it's a great skill. It's like I can shotgun a beer very well, also a retired skill of mine. I don't go around stocking beers anymore. Jimmy Fallon show. It wasn't retired. It hasn't been retired. I didn't shotgun a beard in any Fallon show. You asked if you could. Remember? I was joking. joking. Plus, they only have, by the way, for those of you who don't know, we're on a Jimmy Fallon show. And one of their sponsors is Bud Light Platinum, which is basically Bud
+
+[26:33] Light, where they add some extra booze to it. It's like straight up, they add extra booze and they put it in like a blue bottle that looks like kind of like a Saratoga water, a tiny
+
+[26:41] bottle. But you can't shotgun out of a bottle style. It shows that you know about. You asked them if they had cans so that you could shot. Yes. A joke, a joke. I no longer shotgun, although I am quite good at that. I'm tired. Anyway, uh, okay, so why don't we go to our 1st commercial work, come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[27:19] ' put it
+
+[27:26] go you got the gotta be riding somewhere real real way to go mind It's just a memory home now, but it just keeps you clean, where you from the village, the street, put you down, and I'm coming home, don't rain, man,
+
+[27:55] then, too calm, mommy, go to love. got nothing wrong Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Why those pastors is a 146 year old
+
+[28:10] multigenerational family farm that works in cooperation with nature, to produce artisans,
+
+[28:16] meat, that is safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to eat. Without fail, we ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically
+
+[28:28] sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated. We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable
+
+[28:37] mind. For more information, visit wideoakpastages.com. You're currently listening to Brothers, NYC, Real Long Way to Go, bandfronted by our very own Damon Bolte. And we're coming back. We pop is on the air. Wait, Damon Bolty fronts a band? Yeah. Well, I guess he's not the front man, but he's the lead guitar. That's his band. Is his twin also in the band? Yeah, that's why they're called brothers. Oh, yeah, it's hard for me to hear over the telephone. I can't hear anything. So we got we got WePop SoupyPot slash Bam on the phone? Yes. Hi, Dave, my son, Dan Jack. Hi. We bop. What's up? How's everything going? Going well. So for those of you that don't know what's going on, uh, we pop soupy pot, a.k.a. to the rest of the world, bam, uh, just got his Kickstarter, uh, fully funded, and
+
+[29:31] they're making a, uh, relatively low cost, simple to use at
+
+[29:36] home emersion circulator. Uh, and uh, what's the cost of this sucker? Uh, it is 359. 359. All right, 359. And, uh, you know, I don't know, go on the key. how do you buy one of these suckers? So right now, Kickstarter campaign's closed. Uh, so you just go to shop.namiku.com. to a pre-order one. Now, what's your ETA for actual units? ETA for um, by Christmas? Yeah, we have a lot of demands. We're going to give priority to the Kickstarter people. But, um, we're still working that out. It should be the same match. We'll see. So, uh, uh, I hear that you have uh, something to discuss over the cooking issues airwave regarding this. Oh, well. Silence. Sorry, sorry, I guess not. No, I didn't, I didn't hear you. Oh, you told me you wanted to speak about Ziploc bags. Oh, no, no, um, so yeah, we have, we have a lot of emails, uh, coming in. You know, people being concerned with Ziploc bags and, you know, I, I feel like a lot of people still have uh, issues with cooking and plastic. So, what we've been doing. Specifically, zip, zip, ziplocs, though, as opposed to, you know, you're not getting any calls in with questions about cooking
+
+[31:07] in sous vide cooked chill bags, right? You have people calling with questions on, on the, um, the wisdom of using Ziploc bags, uh, for cooking low temp, right? Right, now. Uh, well, here's, here's, here's my, my thought, and the reason, I guess, is because uh, on your Kickstarter uh, campaign
+
+[31:29] video. There is a uh, a picture of someone putting food in a Ziploc to, um, to do the, the cooking with the, with your device. What's your device called again? Uh, Benamiku? Namiku. N-O-M-I-K-U. S, not me Crew. Yeah, Namiku. So, um, my feeling on the block bags. I think I might have told the story once, but you know, I could tell it again. Uh, I was doing the Martha Stewart show, uh, and they they decided to just have like a bunch of like tech fools on. So, uh, you know, Nathan was on via Mirvold was on via, you know,
+
+[32:05] uh, he wasn't actually on. They showed, you know, she did a tour month. Stuart did a tour of his lab there and they had Grand Aikis was on and I was on. And so I was talking to Grant backstage, Grant A gets, of course, from Millennia. I was talking backstage that he was getting, um, a lot of flack from S.A. Johnson Wax, a family company, which I believe the people that make the Ziploc bag. Uh, and uh, basically, they yelled at him because he had a video on the web where he was using a
+
+[32:34] Ziploc to do, um, to do his low temperature cooking. And, uh, and I think it's really strange that they have a problem with it, or that anyone has a problem with it, because the Ziploc bags are rated for
+
+[32:49] reheating uh, in a nuke. Right? I mean, says right on it that you can reheat stuff in them in a nuke. The issue is, um, like a Ziploc bag, and I could be wrong, but I'm not, is made out of polyethylene. And food, food grade, obviously, polyethylene. And, uh, it's the same stuff that, um, uh, most plastic wrap is made out of polyethylene. And uh, what it can't do is get anywhere near the boiling because, boiling point of water, 100 C, because
+
+[33:25] it, it gets very, very soft there and that's very close to the melting point. However, it works fine in the
+
+[33:34] 50s and I never really take it above the low 60s ever because I don't have a need
+
+[33:39] to, Celsius, that is. Um, But in that range, uh, they are perfectly fine. And I, I can't understand any argument, uh, against using ziploc bags, uh, for cooking low temp at those temperatures, so long as you aren't assuming that you're preserving something for any length of
+
+[34:03] time because you haven't put a vacuum seal on it. So long as you're not heating it above any other, you know,
+
+[34:09] above in the 60s somewhere. I can't see any argument whereby cooking in any form of plastic would be okay and not in a
+
+[34:16] ziploc under those circumstances. Um, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, um, the food savers, and a lot of, you know, side stealers that are on the market, they're using the same kind of material, and somehow, somehow, those are being like promoted for used with, uh, you know,
+
+[34:36] like this goofy supreme or whatever. Right, well, you know, I just, well, those cookshill bags. Like even cookshields, I mean, polyethylene is a good choice and I'm having a little trouble hearing you, but polyethylene is a good choice for, um, for food
+
+[34:51] applications just because it doesn't have to have plasticizers in it. Uh and it doesn't react with food. Uh, very much. Usually those bags that were rated to higher temperatures will have multiple, multiple plastic layers. Uh, and so that they keep their uh, integrity at at higher temperatures. Uh, But again, again, like most of this is completely moot because we're keeping our temperatures very much lower than is ever going to be a
+
+[35:18] problem when we're using low temperature cooking. So I just, I literally, except for the fact that Johnson, S.C. Johnson
+
+[35:25] Wax, doesn't, I believe it, Tessie Johnson Wax, does not want to, uh, have any sort of liability from saying you can cook in their bags as opposed to, you know, reheating in a very specific
+
+[35:37] way because they don't want to assume that liability. They just say you can't do it. And then that, them saying you can't do it is just getting promulgated on the, on the, on the, on the web and by people. I mean I don't really understand any other sort of argument. I would love to hear from somebody what that argument is, but I haven't
+
+[35:54] heard uh, I haven't heard any good reasons. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And also, uh, thanks for the mention last time on uh, Hardish radio. So our Namiku is actually 750 watts. And uh, some people have been saying, oh, that, you know, that's too low, whatever. But then I think, I think for the purpose of, um, maintaining perfect temperatures. I think 750 W is way more than enough. What do you think? Well, that was the one question I had when I talked about it, uh, on the air was, uh, I mean, like, what was the reason you went 750 instead of the full 1000 that uh, most of the other companies are using? Well, that's just the uh, uh, the type of heaters that we're using. And um, for, for the size that we're able to get it down to, um, we, we've matched it up with 750 watts. We've had some 1000 watts prototype, however. But, um, it doesn't, it doesn't make, it doesn't make much of a difference like how fast, like, you can, you can heat the water. Well, what size bath were you testing on? Relatively the same. Uh, just the regular, um, I think the 12, 12 liter, like fence. Yeah, I mean, the ones where like the, you know, the, the, the 1000 watt, uh, circulators start crapping out. Uh, anytime you go above a normal full size Lexan. Uh, and then they start they start sucking wind. Um, so, I mean, I think it, what, just what you're doing by any, by, you know, any sort of power limitation, what you're doing is you're, you're, um,
+
+[37:36] you're, you're just tapping the upper size of the water bath that you can reliably heat with
+
+[37:42] it. Um, you're also capping the recovery rate of it when you drop a
+
+[37:49] large uh, food load into it. So the, for instance, you know, you, you simply, you can't maintain
+
+[37:58] easily any temperature, also, it also depends on the temperatures you're trying to get to. It's a lot easier to get, uh, you know, a water bath up to 55 Celsius, let's say, than it is to get a water bath up to 85 Celsius, let's say, because there's a lot more losses to the
+
+[38:15] atmosphere because the water wants to go off a lot more as vapor at those
+
+[38:19] temperatures. And so you're having to put a lot more energy in. You're getting, you know, you know, it's proportionally uh, a higher temperature relative to ambient, and so you have to drive it harder because you have higher heat losses out of your out of your uh,
+
+[38:32] your vessel. So, um, a normal 1000 watt circulator in a, in a large Lexan that's, you know, uh, higher than the one that I normally recommend, I can't really get it to go above about
+
+[38:46] 55 and I can't ha, it doesn't really drive an accurate temperature at those levels.
+
+[38:52] Uh, you know, when you drop big loads into them. And so I only recommend using giant baths like that with a circulator, for reheat, where the temperature isn't as accurate, the temperature, the need for accuracy isn't as high. So, you know, if you were cooking a smaller, uh, in a smaller vessel, like a
+
+[39:11] half-leck sand, let's say, then I'm sure 750 watts is fine.
+
+[39:16] But my question would be, is, is like, how would a 750 perform in a full-size Lexan versus a 1000 one? I don't know. I've never I've never done it. You know what I mean? So I can't tell you. Um, I mean, but those are just my concerns. I would bet for the, for 90% of the people, if you were going to work at home, very few people at home need to drive anything bigger than a half
+
+[39:38] Lex hand. Right. And that's right. That's why we've designed the Namiku to work with, you know, pots of any size from
+
+[39:47] 3 quarts and up. So we actually, uh, that was the size that we had in mind and um, 750 watts is more than adequate. So those, you know, anything, anything bigger than, um, than
+
+[40:01] the lifespan than, you know, you're going a little bit overboard. It's up for, for, for a house. Yeah. I mean, yeah, by the way, we pop, uh, you know, you're in Bangkok now, right? No, actually, I'm in San Francisco. I think, oh, and you're coming here soon. Yeah, yeah, I had. I might not. So, uh, we, we, we pop as a product designer, but also went to the French culinary institute and and worked with us. So he knows that we can very easily overstuff a full-size Lexand, but this isn't designed for that. It's designed for people at home, right? Right. But when are you going to get one for us to play with? Uh, as soon as possible. We're about, we're about to go into, um, production in China. I leave, uh, at least San Francisco on August 1st and, uh, we'll, we'll be in China for a long time until, um, we'll, we'll supervise everything until delivery, basically. All right. Well, well, listen, congratulations on the new product, and I might just miss you. I think I fly out when you fly, you fly back. When you get back in the country. Oh, you know, come and come and say howdy. We love, we love ourselves some we pop. But yeah, for anyone out there who's never been football grand backstage
+
+[41:17] bar, um, in New York City, you need to go because not only that, um, the cocktails are amazing. If you take your dates there, it's gonna feel the deal. Hey, check this out. For those of you that don't know, we pop was our very 1st caller ever into the radio show. ever. Is that true? Yeah, we pop, very 1st caller of all times. And from Bangkok, by the way, and, and, you know, for those of you who go to the bar, we have a Thai basil drink on the menu, but I don't know why they call it Thai
+
+[41:51] basil because, you know, we're actually going to make a holy basil drink coming up soon because we have a regular Italian
+
+[41:57] globe style basil drink that we really like, but we don't want to put 2 basil drinks on the menu because that's
+
+[42:02] weird. But if we put 3 basilics on, and turns out Nastasia grows a boatload of holy basil in her backyard. What about that, we pop? That sounds great. Yeah. We're just going to call the drink holy basil. Holy basil. That's what we're gonna call the drink. What do you think? Sounds good, right? I don't know what's in it yet. We got to get the basil and play around with it, but it's going to be there. Don't worry about it. We going to have like, we're going to have 3 basil drinks. We going to go basil crazy for the for the mid-summer push. All basil all the time. Anyway All right, we probably, listen, have a good time in China, building your product. We can't wait. Congratulations on the new venture. All right, thank you so much. Bye. Alrighty. All right, so let's take one more quick break and come back with a little more cooking issues. Message from Bushwick Block Party on Saturday, July 28th, from noon to midnight.
+
+[42:58] Saturday. Saturday, Saturday. Saturday, July 28th. It's a party in the street. Yes, I am La Calle. La Musica, soft spa. Silicone, sister. Eyes. You're used, natural child. Tournament, NC Todd experience, featuring Full Breezy, Sam Weiss, and Boston's best hip hop group, Gray Sky
+
+[43:23] Appeal. Gang sign, Wild Yax. Follow performances by he, the Doth Pricer. Andrew W.K. in the Roberta's Garden, exclusive
+
+[43:34] Tinky Disco, DJ Priority of the Third, Poinskin, Escobar. Night Shift, Sussman. Dividas. Roto
+
+[43:44] boot by Ryan Slack. Get killer, still cage match. Bikini contest. Dirt by Shark Balls, Comida, Momo, Uchija, Una, Cafe, Una, Heritage Foods, USA, Arangini,
+
+[44:00] Brother, Imperial Woodpecker Snowball. Dessert by Katie P. Cookie Robin, Brooklyn Star. Sponsored by in Spanish. Vitamin one. Wonkon Blue. Wonka bands. Martin Greenfield Clothier. Momo Sushi Shack. Roberto. Dep covers a Bushwick. Green fitness. Heritage Radio Network.org. Main Drag. Dr. Bobby Booka, dermatology. Jelly J NYC. from 12 to 2. I'll supplies last, admitted to one margarita pizza per person. Acoustic performances from Dear Old Pals and free advice. No sharks will be harmed in making this block party. Possible performance from Joe Bishop, Bishop. Some weird thing happened with the phone. Sorry, dogs out there. Must have been that block party commercial. Hey, we've only got a few minutes left, Dave. All right, cool. So I have one last question. So I'll take it right now. Brian writes in. Hi, guys, yeah. They saw on star chefs that you guys use grade C maple syrup at the bar. What does it taste like? I want the smokiest, earthiest, funkiest, funky, syrup that there
+
+[45:08] is, when I Google around, I'm buying some. I saw that it's only for commercial applications. I also saw that they may have changed the rating system, so the grade C is now grade B. Also, the Canadian rating system is different. What's the deal? and where can I get it? Thanks again, Brian. All right, Brian. Uh, what I did was, I called up the maple syrup, uh,
+
+[45:28] producer, and said, hey, listen, can I have some grave sea, uh, maple syrup? I know you have it, and he said, all right. Don't tell anyone, uh, because I guess you didn't have a label for it or whatever, they poured it into a quart, you know, container. Uh, you know, a quart, uh, maple syrup container to slap 2 B's on it, which was the code for C grade,
+
+[45:50] and, uh, and, yeah, I bought it at the, at the regular price. Now, uh, those of you that didn't hear anything before that we say, the sea grade maple syrup, uh, basically, maple syrup when it starts its run at the beginning of the season, is the lightest and kind of least, uh, has the least conjure,
+
+[46:08] the least kind of flavor in it, and then as the season progresses, it gets more and more conjure, and gets
+
+[46:13] darker, and has uh, kind of more and more different, different flavors. I like degrades being. Uh, but it can be a little weird. It doesn't necessarily play nice, uh, with other ingredients, the way, uh, that B does. I mean, I, I, I use bee and cooking at home. I use B on pancakes. Uh, I use bee and drinks and I think every bartender I know uses bee and drinks. Uh, see, was a little rough on some of the drinks that we tried it out. I like it. It's really intense, but it can almost go metallic in certain, uh, in certain applications, but it's definitely something you should try, um, to, uh, have
+
+[46:53] around, and uh, hopefully that helps. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[47:10] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did. Got me on this corner And I don't know. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization to donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[47:49] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foodsmarket.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. You listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org.
+
+[0:23] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're o, to cooking you. Come to you live from Alberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Joined in the theater, theater, huh? Theater. Theater. box in the containerized box in the back of a bird's pizzeria with Nastasia the Hammer
+
+[0:48] Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Good, how are you? And Jack and Joe in the engineering room. How you doing, guys? Hey. Okay, 1st of all, a thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna, Michael, I'm gonna call you Mike. I gonna butcher your last name. Does anyone here know how to pronounce? I'm terrible at pronounce this. I was going to call you Michael because I don't want to destroy your last name. okay? I'm gonna try it anyway. Suzuki. Suzuki? What do you think? Let's hope so Stas, right? Especially because so nice. sent me, us. a copy of Fuchsia Dunlop's book, a land of plenty, a treasury of authentic Sichuan cuisine, a book, by the way, which I do not own, even though I've been meaning to get some Fuchsia Dunlop
+
+[1:30] books because she was recommended to us by our good friend Harold McGee, because she showed him around various places in China when he was there.
+
+[1:38] Anyway, he writes, thank you for answering my questions on seasoning pans. Enjoy the Dunlop. It is a great book about my favorite type of Chinese food. Thanks for all the effort you put into the podcast. Mike. Very nice. Nice. Very nice. Thank you. All right. Now, uh, a Twitter question I missed from last week from uh,
+
+[1:56] Barry uh, Moncasey, I hope, again, with me with the pronunciation. I should just never pronounce the name. Hey, listen, when you're writing something in, even if your name is Smith, assume I don't know how to pronounce it and just put a little pronunciation guide next to it. I right or wrong? Because I'm a moron. True? True. Uh, uh, Anyway, uh, the question was, uh, tweeted in, clearly over, clearly overcooking a shrimp boil, uh, everything's abbreviated because
+
+[2:19] Twitter. Shrimp, sausage, corn, potato, onion, garlic, and zenerans, spice. Question was perfect sous vide recipe or timing.
+
+[2:28] Okay, I'm interpreting this question to mean that whenever you cook shrimps, the shrimp boil, you're overcooking the hell out of the shrimp, which is definitely the case, probably. I mean definitely the case. Um, I'm assuming that you're not overcooking by too much. Your sausage, your corn, your onion or potato, and you're definitely not overcooking your
+
+[2:48] Zataran spice is my guess. But I am not a huge fan of low temperature
+
+[2:54] shellfish, unless they are post-finished. Now, usually, let's say I was going to cook a lobster or shrimp. Anytime you're gonna cook a shellfish, you don't want to cook it for too long. Because if you cook it for too long, even at a very low temperature, the enzymes
+
+[3:10] in it keep working, especially at low temperature, actually, the enzymes keep working, and they turn mushy. In some cases, they can almost turn to a paste, and it's the most revolting paste that you've ever put in your mouth.
+
+[3:20] In fact, you feel like you have to spit it out. Now, it doesn't always happen, and I can't, I haven't figured out yet why sometimes shrimp has this enzyme in it that does that to
+
+[3:30] it, and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe someone out there knows why it's a variable situation. However, I actually prefer, uh, when things, uh, shellfish are cooked, not overcooked, necessarily, but cooked at a higher temperature and have that slight springiness to them, but don't, uh,
+
+[3:47] but, you know, aren't over, aren't totally overdone. Lobster, the way you would cook a lobster, let's say. So I assume shrimp is somewhat similar. Low temperature is usually you would put it into a bath of butter at roughly 60 degrees Celsius for
+
+[4:03] roughly, this is after you've taken the tail meat out. You put it on a skewer, you put it in there roughly 10 minutes. So that's what you're looking at for low temperature, but the texture of it is always very, very soft. And I actually like a little more bite to my, um, lobster than that. Now, on shrimp, what I typically do, uh, whenever I'm doing, uh, kind of boiled things with shrimps is I'll, uh, rip off the shells and and heads, uh, and I will roast roast them to get some
+
+[4:35] flavor and then infuse them into the soup based separately, pull them and discard them separately, like, you know, basically grill cooked
+
+[4:43] the shrimp uh, at a high temperature until it's just done. And then at the very end, as I'm putting the soup out, I will fold it back in. That way, I get the maximum flavor from the shells and whatnot into the, although a lot of the really thin shell trip we get, there's not as much flavor in the shells as you'd like, but you get the flavor from that into
+
+[5:00] your soup base, and you don't viciously overcook the shrimp. On the sausage, I usually recommend cooking my sausage at 60 degrees Celsius, and you can cook that in a
+
+[5:12] bag and then post chop it up and fold it in. Later, you're not going to get then any flavor of that sausage into the
+
+[5:19] stock, so you might want to reinforce the stock with some other flavors if you're going to do it that way.
+
+[5:23] But the best way usually to handle it because none of those ingredients cook properly at the same temperature. The potato is going to need to be at least above 85 Celsius for a
+
+[5:32] pretty, you know, long length of time for it to cook out properly, or not really 85, whatever, whatever. Yes, about that. An onion definitely above 85 Celsius for a good length of time to cook. And so none of these things want to cook at the same temperature. So typically I cook them individually, add the flavor to the stock in layers and recombine it at the end. And I do that all the time with any sort of, so like when you're making like a, 0 my god, the name's gone out of my head, the, uh, the soup that, uh, is from, uh, the soup
+
+[6:00] that, like bouillet based, uh, spicy bouillet based with sausage, with garlic bread in it from San Francisco, anyone, anyone, anyone? Oh my god, sounds like almost like the Italian word for onion. Cipino. Uh, yeah, so uh, when I make trapino, I I cook everything separately, you know, and make a stock basically from the bones and the drippings from
+
+[6:18] the ju after I steam out. I'll steam out like all of the, you know, mussels and shellfish and whatnot. Save the stealing juices, make a stock with the fish bones, cook the stuff, and then recombine it all at the end. And that's always been the best way I get the maximum flavor and nothing's overcooked. What do you think? Good. Good. All right. Hey, Dave, and group, and group, group. From Matt. I recently have made 2 dishes of my pressure cooker. One was a chicken stock based on Heston Blumenthal's recipe. Hessen Blumenthal recommends finally chopping up the chicken pieces and then either deep frying, I think, or roasting. I haven't actually read it, but this is my impression of it. And then pressure cooking that for, I think, quite a long time. And of course, he doesn't mention it in the book, but I looked at the pictures of it and he recommends using a
+
+[7:03] coon recon pressure cooker, which it visually he recommends it, i.e. that's what he
+
+[7:08] uses, because it's non-venting. If you go back on the cooking issues blog back to, you know, 2009 or whatever, you know, I wrote a bunch of posts or one, two, posts on why I think that it's very important that your pressure cooker not be venting out when you're making
+
+[7:21] stocks because the stocks from a pressure cooker that allows steam to escape tend to not taste as good in my opinion. Okay. One was a chicken stock based on Heston Blumenthal's recipe, and the other was octopus based on our web recipe. In both cases, when I remove the lid, the smell was less than appetizing. I don't know if I would call it a sulfur smell, but in that family, in the sulfur family. My wife had thought the chicken had gone bad, but it smelled fine when I put it into the pot. I thought it was maybe the sulfur from the onions or garlic, but then I did it with the octopus and got the same result. For the octopus, I used water, salt, paprika, and pressure cooked for 45 minutes. I know there was no onion, and I don't think I used garlic. Also, I've done tons of meat with onion and garlic in the past and never had any problems. Any thoughts on what's causing the odor. Okay, it's definitely not the onion. In fact, onions are almost completely deodorized by pressure cooking. And looking behind it, by the way, with these kinds of things. Authors in the past, notably Julia Child and mastering the art of French cooking, has notes on the pressure cooker that say she doesn't like certain things in the pressure cooker, pressure cooked
+
+[8:26] stock, is one of them because she says that it has a pressure cooked taste. Going back and, you know, reviewing what she's doing, I don't think what she's talking about is what you're talking about. I think for her, like part of the problem is, is that as anyone who cooks a lot
+
+[8:39] and the pressure cooker knows, especially stocks, you need to double and triple the onions in the recipe because they're just not going to come through as
+
+[8:46] much or add some at the end after it's been uncapped. She also probably didn't take into account the fact that there's very little to no reduction on the inside of a pressure cooker. So she has all of her stocks, uncapped, and then simmered afterwards open for another hour. So to get the flavor where she thinks they should be for
+
+[9:02] a normal stock. So I'm not discounting Julie Child because, of course, Julie Child, you know, no one ever discounts anything, Julie Child, because that's crazy. It's like, you know, culinary suicide to discount Julie Child. But I'm going to have to say that I'm not sure that her opinion is necessarily well taken on pressure
+
+[9:19] cookers. Now. I've never had what you're describing happen in a chicken stock. My question is, did the did all of the giblets go in? Maybe you're getting an effect with the liver cooking for a long time in the pressure cooker. I don't know. That's never happened to me. I've never gotten an off flavor from a chicken stock. I will say that I do not cook chicken stock as
+
+[9:41] long in the pressure cooker as many other people do. At home, I actually only cook it for about 25 minutes at 15
+
+[9:49] psi or both rings, but at the school when I was running the test, we were doing it 45 minutes. I know people are cooking it a lot longer. And I think going back to your octopus, that the main problem on your octopus might be the length of time you're cooking. Most of the recipes that I've seen, have the octopus only cooking for 20 to 30
+
+[10:09] minutes. And I think if you overcook it too long, you might be creating some flavors in there that otherwise wouldn't be there. Otherwise, I can't explain what's going on there. But it's definitely not the, it's not the onion, it's not onion or garlic. If anyone out there has any experience with this and knows what you're talking about and has experienced this kind of off flavor. I'd really appreciate you writing or tweeting in and saying what's going on because I'd love to solve this problem. Sorry, Matt, that I don't have anything more definitive to say, but there it is. Okay, Jack, you want to go to our 1st commercial break? Yes. All right, here we go. Call back a cooking issues. With a cold, how? You betcha, and how I'm power. Power With fooling around all over this town. I'm power. I'm power with shooting dice Cause it's a vice. Out late each night. And that's not right, so I'm power. With why he needs to. Believe me it's true. At Whole Foods Market, we believe in healthy snacking, eating our veggies and supporting local. Check out Brad's raw chips, a local producer that created irresistible chips after their namesakes successful weight loss with a raw lifestyle. Their chips are gluten free, nutrient packed, and so good that you'll think you're indulging. For more information, visit bradsrawchips.com. Bottle, b, b, b, b, b, b, b, b, b, b. So, that music is song is called Ampao from a band called
+
+[11:57] Plexophonic, who mailed us their CD after hearing me talk about original music on cooking issues. So we got the CD mail to us in the office with a nice note that he's a longtime listener, and that's his band. Nice. Plexophonic? Yeah, pretty good, right? Yeah, like that. We'll play some other stuff. Plexophonic. Plexiponic. Right? I got a Twitter question and also, by the way, what do you got? We've got from Danny Combs. I think I pronounced that right. trying to make an extremely thick simple syrup, glucose syrup thick for his
+
+[12:31] bartender, and it keeps crystallizing, any suggestions? Yeah, it's very, very difficult to make simple syrups with sugar that are as thick as glucose syrup.
+
+[12:42] In fact, for several reasons. One, the glucose inherently doesn't form crystals as much as sucrose does, right? So right off there, you know, you're off the bat, you've got issues. Secondly, there are other things in there,
+
+[12:57] dextrins and maltodextrins and glucose syrup that are adding to the thickness of it, but aren't going to form crystals.
+
+[13:06] So you're kind of shafted 2 ways there. Glucose syrup, if my memory serves me, is a kind of bricks in the area
+
+[13:14] of about 80%, meaning glucose syrup is about 80% solid, which is hard freaking
+
+[13:20] core. Uh, you know, I typically, when you make a rich simple syrup. When you make a 2 to one simple syrup, you're talking about a bricks of about 66, right? Regular one-to-one simple syrup as it breaks, duh, of 50, if you do it by weight, which is how we do it. Even at a mirror 66 bricks, right, which is a 2 to one simple syrup, it can start forming some crystals eventually in it.
+
+[13:45] You might be able to push that up a little higher, 70 or so, but you're not going to get much higher than that using sucrose.
+
+[13:53] Uh, you could use uh, an invert, like a
+
+[13:58] trimoline, which will have roughly similar sweetening properties to it and get the sugar content that high, but not with, uh, you know, regular dominoes, uh, sugar that you
+
+[14:07] have uh, uh, uh, Well, I'm not pumping the dominoes brand, but you know what I mean? Regular beet or cane sucrose that you have sitting on the shelf. You could attempt to invert it yourself by long cooking, but in general, then you're going to have problems with turning brown and all this stuff. So I think you're kind of in for a world of hurt trying to get that. You could artificially thicken it with, um, thickeners, but then it's going to have that artificial thickener. So the question is, why do you want it to be that thick? If you just want it to be much sweeter without adding water, I think you're
+
+[14:38] going to be SOL. Another alternate. I mean, glucose syrup isn't very sweet. Uh, you know, none of those things are really. I mean, they're really, really thick. I'd have to know why you wanted it thick to recommend a way to do it, but you're not going to get a regular 100% sucrose syrup that thick without
+
+[14:56] a crystallizing out, just will not have, in my opinion. Someone call me in, tell me that I'm wrong. Oh, speaking of calling in, call your questions too. 718-4972128. That 718-497-2128. Is that right? Yep. Okay. All right. So going back to our questions. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack and Joe. Curious, from behind Wall Street Journal's paywall, which I guess, I mean, they illegally sent it to me. Well, are they paid for it? They're just asking me a question. I'm not calling this person out. It's from Steve. He says, a professor is trying to use Distiller's Grain as a healthy food additive, although I don't know how healthy it is. My understanding is most it's mostly fiber remnants from grains. I'm against ethanol from grain, but if it's created, it may be good to find a variety of
+
+[15:43] uses, or perhaps it's a fool's errand. Also, and this is the this is the opinion of Steve and not necessarily the opinion of anyone here. Arthur Daniel, ADM is the devil incarnate. What do you think about that, Jack? You hate that. You hate the ADM, right? What's that? Archer Daniel Midlands or how do you pronounce it? You hate. Are you pro again? They're the devil incarnate, according to Steve. No comment. I have no comment because I don't want anyone knocking on my door and putting a bullet in my head. Uh, I'm kidding. don't do that. They don't they don't, I don't think. I don't know. anyway. Thanks for your great program, by the way. I can never listen live to the podcast come in handy. Okay, so from the article, basically, the story is, is that when you're distilling anything from anything, you have leftover after the fermentation and boiling process, you have whatever you had left.
+
+[16:31] So if it's grain, it's grain, if it's spent, grape, you know, whatever, it's spent, if you're doing brandy, it's that. So, uh, there's all this stuff left over. Now, what are you going to do with it? You don't want to just throw it away because that's a waste. You paid for the grain or whatever. And so now you have to do something with the leftovers. Otherwise, you're a moron from economic standpoint. Now, I've actually tasted directly wet distiller's grain spent from the production of makers, Mark Bourbon. And I thought it was pretty good, actually, because it's got a weird little kind of a funky flavor to it, but that's not what it doesn't get served to people. Typically, what happens is, is it gets sent to livestock for the livestock
+
+[17:14] to grow on. Because it's cheap. It's basically a byproduct, and if you feed it to something to make meat out of it, then win-win. okay? But in this article on Wall Street Journal, this guy, a Mr. Krishnan,
+
+[17:28] his whole idea is he wants to send, he wants to use these things in human food products. But what he's doing is basically what everyone does when they have a cheap food product is they try to make it as bland and tasteless as
+
+[17:41] possible so they can jack it into foods without you noticing. In other words, here's what he says. Literally, this is a quote from him. If I can make it bland, then I can do lots of tricks, he says. He then tests how much regular flour, this is directly from the article. He tests how much regular flour he can replace. If I put too much in there, he says, it'll be a brick. And cookies, don't go beyond 7%. Chocolate chips come in handy too. I can hide anything if I have enough chocolate, he says. And that just goes to show you, I mean, anyone who knows me knows what I'm going to say right away based on what he says, which
+
+[18:17] is, if you're adding something because you want to save a nickel and jack food with it, then I think
+
+[18:22] you're you're doing some bad stuff to food, right? Now, theoretically, you can make some argument that, it's not basically, it's, there's a lot, there's protein. There a lot of protein and spent grains and a lot of fiber. So if you're having problems with the pooper, and you need a lot of extra fiber in there, or if you're the one American, uh, who can afford to buy cookies that are jacked with, uh, uh, you know,
+
+[18:45] dispense, uh, spent distillers grain and also has a protein deficiency, right? Because I doubt that the loads and loads of hungry, which there are many hungry people in the United States, people tend to forget
+
+[18:57] this. A lot of hungry children in the United States, especially, which is horribly sad. I don't think those are the people who are going to be able to afford to go get, you know, cookies that are jacked up with spent grain. Do you think, Stas? Yeah. So that could be wrong. And also, like, it seems kind of, even if it was that, it seems kind of gross to be like, hey, look, I'm going to make these cheap cookies for these kids that don't have nothing to eat. And so what I'm going to do is jack it with stuff that nobody wants. Does that seem right or wrong? Seems wrong. I mean, just from a mental note, it seems wrong. Anyway, so right there, I'm saying, this is not something that I'm hyper interested in. Um, the, I mean, as a feed for cattle, uh, it seems like it's fine. I was doing some research on it and there's basically they either dry it out and use it that way because it keeps a lot longer or if you live very close to where a distillery is, you can feed them the wet
+
+[19:49] product and it's fed typically in areas of like 10 to 20% of the total ration based on dry
+
+[19:57] matter. This is according to KS grains, and they're DDGSF, which is a dried distiller
+
+[20:04] grain fact sheet. And basically, they say that at those levels, it doesn't make the meat taste like crap, i.e. they can't tell the difference.
+
+[20:12] And it can be economical. And so basically how much of it's used is directly tied to whatever the current price of corn is. So as corn prices go up, the use of this stuff is going to go up as
+
+[20:24] well because it's, we're going to make it anyway. Now, uh, the other thing that's useful for in feeding cattle is to prevent uh, or to help prevent uh, acidosis, which is
+
+[20:34] a assist, uh, where you're not supposed, cows aren't supposed to eat basically hugely carbohydrate rich uh, diets all the time. And if they do, it can throw off their room in and basically eat away the lining of their room and the pH of their system gets messed up. And
+
+[20:49] then, oh, it's terrible. They can't cure it. They're done. It's nightmare. So anyway, so feeding him this, which is lower and carbohydrate can help reduce that apparently. Now, one thing I will say, and you know, about this. And again, like what this guy is doing in this article is basically totally removing all of the aroma and flavor, which I actually think is quite interesting.
+
+[21:11] If you were going to do something with spent grain, spent distillers grain. What you should do is taste it and say, hey, this has a flavor. This has an aroma. What the hell would this taste good in? I mean, that's what you should be doing. Of course, then you'll never soak up the £800000000 of this stuff or whatever it is that we make from fermenting ethanol. And I'm sure that most of the stuff that's made isn't made at the same quality as maker's
+
+[21:35] mark, and so tastes like behind. You know what I mean? And so if you're dealing with stuff that's poorly made, then not much use for it. You know what I mean? Like, uh, I mean, I'm sure I could find good uses for maker's marks grain or any one of the other distillers who we
+
+[21:48] like uh, their their grain. But these guys have to totally de-aromatize it with a bunch of different procedures. Now, uh, going back, whenever I want to know what animal, what feed stocks due to animals, traditional feed stocks due to animals. I turn to William Ewatt, who was writing in the mid 1800s, and wrote one of my favorite books of all time, and you can get it on the Google books, and it's called The Hug.
+
+[22:13] And in other editions, it's called The Pig. I'm using the Hog, the 1865 edition. If you go through it. He lists all of the feedstocks that were available to feed pigs at the time. And anytime you had a bunch of crap left over, one of the things you would do to it is feed it to pigs to make meat out of it. And what he says is, and certain things, obviously, are delicious acorns and whatnot. But he says, the refuse, this is from the 1865 edition. The refuse wash and grains, and other residue of breweries and distilleries, may also be given to swine with advantage and seem to induce an intendency to lay on to induce a tendency to lay on flesh, but you must not do it in 2 larger quantities or unmixed without
+
+[22:52] other more substantial food, as although they gain flesh rapidly. When fed on this alone, the meat is not firm and never makes good bacon.
+
+[23:01] Wow. So, so you out in the 1800s, and, you know, take it with a grain of salt,
+
+[23:08] but you out apparently was well known back in the day that if you fattened too much on these spent
+
+[23:14] grains, that yes, they fattened up, but the meat didn't taste as good as it otherwise would.
+
+[23:19] So there you have it. There you have it. Should I take one more question before we go to a break or do you want me to go to another break? Yeah, we got some tweets too whenever you're ready. All right, give me a tweet and then we'll go to break. give you a tweet. Once I zested, this is from Andrew Switzer. Once I zested some lemon limes and oranges, I forgot about them for 2 weeks and cut them to find them extremely sweet. I have not been able to replicate this. Any idea what happened? The lime specifically tasted pure sweet with no acidity. Wait, now the lime itself or the zest? Wait, he zested the lime? Zested some lemon limes and oranges, forgot about them for 2 weeks and then cut into them to find them extremely sweet. He doesn't know what happened.
+
+[23:57] Huh. And it was, I am baffled. I am baffled because citric acid, you know, so let's take the lemons. Okay, lemons, the main acidity in them is citric acid. Uh, it should not, uh, it should not go away. It should not volatilize, neither should it be broken down. The same goes in limes, which is a combination of malic acid and citric acid and
+
+[24:25] succinic acid, not in that order. And those should not break down. It's well known that acidity decreases in apples on storage, but I haven't read anything
+
+[24:35] about increasing the availability of air to the inside of fruit on a lemon or a
+
+[24:42] lime, causing the acidity to go down. Now, if you happen to be in an area that's growing, there are lemons and limes that are sweet, but I'm assuming that if you had picked it off of a tree of unknown providence, that you would have said something like, I
+
+[24:56] picked this lime and lemon off of a tree of unknown provenance, in which case you might have gotten one of the rare, and I think
+
+[25:01] insipids, nostache, you didn't like those, right? The sweet limes and sweet lemons. They're kind of weak, right? Because they didn't have as much power as like an orange has. You know what I mean? Flavor wise. Which is weird because like they're my favorite citrus fruits and all of a sudden you take away the acid and they're wah, wah. So I'm extremely curious. I'm going to have to do some research on that and see whether or not I can figure anything
+
+[25:21] out, but no, I have no explanation for it. Well, we have one more quick question. not really a question. So this is from Landon Young. gonna be in New York City in a few weeks. Restaurant Suggestions near LaGuardia. And then with the hashtag awaiting 2nd coming of Indie Jesus. Aren't we all? Aren't we all? Really? Aren't real? Wow. Near LaGuardia. I know, right? Yeah. Well, what is that near? I have to be honest. Now, there's there's there's there's 2 kinds of people. There's people who actually explore what we Manhattan people call somewhat pejoratively the outer burrows. And then there are other people. Uh, I don't, I mean, like, I basically, and this is going to sound really, it's just because my son does not like getting on subway trains in the weekend, but I do
+
+[26:09] not, that, which is strange, considering that he is obsessed with subways, but I very, very rarely, because with the exception
+
+[26:14] of Roberta's pizzeria, get to eat in the outer burrows very often. So I don't really know much. I've got one for them. What do you got? Jackson Diner in Jackson Heights. Is that close to LaGuardia? Yeah. It's relatively close. So says my map here. Well, that entire neighborhood is world renowned for having interesting, uh, ethnic foods, uh, you know, and
+
+[26:34] that that Jackson Diner has been famous for many, many, many years. I just didn't know it was close to LaGuardia. seems like it. Yeah? That whole neighborhood. You just search that that neighborhood on Jackson. There's a zillion blog posts on that whole neighborhood and everything, everything going on in it. And the one that Jack just mentioned, particularly famous, but Google around in there. Nastas, do you ever eat out there? No. Some of the restaurants in La Gordon are pretty good. come on Seriously? Which one? Come on. I don't remember the name, but it was really good. She's like, that was the best blueberry muffin that had been wrapped 2 weeks ago I ever had in my whole life. Italian place with good sandwiches. Is it Sabaros? Shut up, Jack. All right. And with that, we were going to our 2nd commercial break. I wish that I were twins. You great big baby games. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have for love and arms to embrace you. For us to idolize you each time I face. This one's I wish we were twins by Plexophonic. What couldn't fall lips do? When 4 years, hear you say that I'm yours, da da dum. I wish that I were twins. You great big baby kins. So I could love you twice as much as I do.
+
+[28:04] This is Brandon Hoy, co-owner of Roberta's, and you're listening to HeritageRadio Network.org. Donate, donate, donate, donate, is for a good cosman. Heritage radio. Super awesome, dude. Snacky Tunes. And that other show where the dudes get drunk. I love Nicole Taylor. Hot grease. Dave Arnold, cooking issues. Farm report, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick Mortons. Listen to the radio because it's better than the TV because it doesn't have pictures to distract you. learn about food. Donate. at heritageradio network.org. I like that. Why don't we get the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday monster truck effects? Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. I can do that. You might get a surprise next week. All right. I love, I mean, like, if there, look, I never actually, is that true? Have I ever been to a monster truck rally? I don't feel like I need to because I saw the commercials growing up so much when I was a kid
+
+[28:59] that like, you know, that's that's all I needed. Everything I needed was there and you know, and seeing the truck like crush the other truck on the advertisement was, I didn't feel like I needed to see it in the real life. Have you ever been to a monster truck rally? Any of you guys ever been to a monster truck rally? I have, yeah. When I was a kid in Long Island, O East. Was it awesome? I mean, I was a small kid. I remember feeling awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It may have not been awesome, though. I think maybe the reason was I saw like a televised monster truck rally once, and there was 2 monster trucks, and the idea
+
+[29:26] for those of you that have never left your house is that monster trucks, they
+
+[29:30] have giant giant wheels, and they roll over other cars and crush those other cars. And so they basically they they, they try to race each other over a bunch of cars that they crush to the finish line. And they also do things like pull each other and things like that. But I watched on TV super excited and neither truck actually finished the race because both of them either one flipped
+
+[29:52] over and the other wheel fell off. Like none of them made it over. So it was kind of like. Maybe that's what soured me to the whole thing. Even cooler yet when I was a kid. I saw a demolition derby, they called it, which essentially, Yeah, you know those, right? Oh man, I've always wanted to go to a demolition derby. So cool. We should, you know, that would be a fundraiser. What if Roberta is, we all got a bunch of cars for like $150, fill the sides with concrete and had
+
+[30:14] like a heritage radio, Harris radio, demolition derby. I have a 96 Nissan Sentra. to donate for that event. Yeah? I mean, that would like, that's like a lifelong dream to be in a demolition derby. It's so baller. We have a caller, by the way. Oh, all right. Call her. on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Marvwood has coming from Vipital in Germany. So I'm quite stoked to actually get through to the show. I had a question. I have a 2 year old and 4 year old, uh, child who are getting increasingly fussy about food. What do you feed your kids? Oh, my God. You know what? This is like, this is, it's like your kids learn whatever they can to punish you, right? And it's like, you know, if you eat everything and try to serve them
+
+[31:01] everything, then they will go the exact opposite direction. I end up having to, I have a, we have a couple. have a couple of problems with it. One is that my cooking time with during the week is limited to roughly 15 to 20 minutes a night.
+
+[31:15] And so I have the added problem of it has to be quick. I also have the issue of like, look,
+
+[31:24] the, the, the pitched battles that, uh, you know, that you get into over food, you know, like, you know, you do something you think they're going to think is
+
+[31:31] delicious. Like cauliflower because it's not green because for some reason, as soon as kids start hanging out with other kids, everyone gets together and has some sort of powwow about how green vegetables are disgusting.
+
+[31:41] So you're like, okay, I'll get you this cauliflower and I'll dump cheese sauce over it, which is universally and inherently delicious. And then yet you get this pitched screaming battle, which is impossible to understand. So, Mike, all my kids want to eat is steak hot dogs and hamburgers.
+
+[31:57] And so you have to filter that through. And which is weird because before my older son, Booker was, when he was, you know, 3 and 4 and below, would eat anything, like fistfuls of capers, olives,
+
+[32:09] uh, you know, I had, I end up having them to sneak, sneak things and then they end up liking it. Like for some reason, they've developed a like for squid, you know, initially you have to like fudge it with
+
+[32:22] them. I'm very, very much against lying to adults about what's in food and we'll get to that later. But, uh, with your kids, I think it's kind of an obligation to lie to them and then shame them later into,
+
+[32:33] uh, you know, into eating. Otherwise, they're just, you know, all they want is, you know, Kasugai gummy candies and hot dogs. Yeah, we have a problem. I mean, like you talk about steak hot dogs and hamburgers. We have from that. My kids don't really go for protein, so they would eat
+
+[32:50] pasta, particularly gnocchi like 5 days a week. if they were allowed. Nochi and pesto. So, can you, can you think of anything that's kind of uh, like just not, not just white carbohydrate, because especially in Germany, they, they, they would like to eat
+
+[33:07] pasta and bread. Yeah, all the time. You got them hooked on the spaetzel yet? Or you don't want to you don't want to get them hooked on another white carbohydrate. Uh, yeah, oh, man. Well, in Germany, you're in, so you can't get them to, do you guys eat meat or no? Yeah, yeah, we do. But the kids don't really. I mean, they're digging sort of salami and stuff, but
+
+[33:29] they're not really big on, like, you give them chicken and they'll kind of poke at it. What about divorced? Do they like divorced or no? Uh, yeah, but uh, it's quite different. We've come over from Ireland and it's quite different so that they're not really going for the texture of the verse because it's a lot firmer than we'd have been used to over in the UK.
+
+[33:50] They're different, but both delicious. Because I was going to say, like, you know, what I would typically do, like, I, I, I get their vegetables into, my kids also eat pasta, so I usually get the vegetables into that via purees and
+
+[34:03] sauces. I mean, we try and watch the verse in the salami because, like, we don't want to be just feeding them salt without. That's fair. That's fair. Uh, yeah, that's uh, that's an interesting. It's an interesting problem. Kids are so like, here's what we do, honestly, and so my kids now are 7 and 10, and the deal
+
+[34:27] is, is our current mode, and I can't say whether it's any better or any worse, is we cook whatever we want for ourselves.
+
+[34:33] If they eat it, they eat it, if they don't, they don't. And which says we have a no complaining rule anymore, which doesn't appear to work, but it's
+
+[34:40] just we decide to kind of give up on what they want with the exception of two, 3 days a week. We have like hassle free meals and I'll make whatever it is that they
+
+[34:49] want, assuming it's reasonable. And then the rest of the time, like, it is what it is. I try not to do anything that's going to be overtly going to irritate them and make them angry because that's just pushing things too far. But, you know, And then eventually you find like the weird stuff that like for, like, even though my older son, you can't get to eat any vegetables at all. For some reason, sauerkraut, he'll pound
+
+[35:10] sauerkraut at the end of the world is coming. So, you know, fine, here's some sauerkraut. And he loves canned sardines, good, so do I. Here have some canned sardines. But it's only through just like treating them like they're going to eat everything and just serving them everything that they're going to
+
+[35:24] do. I haven't had as much luck. Unfortunately, hiding things in other things as I would. Uh, unless it's like, you know, something that they know what it is, a squid and they won't eat it until they've eaten it. And then you're like, you like squid and they're like, okay, I like squid. But they, you know, but yeah, I wish I could be more helpful. I read something about a pasta sauce with broccoli. Oh, yeah, that's easy. If they won't eat broccoli, yeah. So, you know, basically just take a chicken stock, which is another meat thing there. Um, and then uh, you can thicken it with a roux, but it's not necessary. Uh, and uh, chop up uh, whole broccoli, including stems, chop the stems finer because uh, and I also peel off the very outside that's tough on the bottom because unless you have a very good blender, it won't puree
+
+[36:08] well. Just throw all those things into the chicken stock, blitz them to blend them up. I usually throw in some chunks into the blender if you blend. My blender's pretty good. If it's not, you have to pre-grade it of, you know, you know, your favorite grating cheese. And I crack a couple of egg yolks into it to thicken it while it's
+
+[36:26] hot, and then toss that into, into, I usually use a thinner pasta with that because it's a really kind of creamy sauce. So I like pastas with that that are creamy, like angel's hair or something like that. And then like... you have to like they reject that. Well, it also will work with a shell or something like that or whatever. Oh, that would also work with gnocchi. But, you know, I feel bad that your kids are making you make gnocchi every day. Oh, no, no, this is the packet stuff, but it's not too bad. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like the fastest way to make the gnocchi is the one where you, you know, it's not traditional or authentic, but you make it a little bit looser than you normally
+
+[37:00] would, put it in a pastry bag and squeeze the pastry bag over the boiling water and cut it with a knife as it goes into the boiling water.
+
+[37:06] And then you can have, and then, you know, there were, there you can increase at least a potato ratio higher
+
+[37:11] than the, or you could, you could do whatever you want. I mean, that was a recipe I got in the 80s from Jacques
+
+[37:17] Pepin, who's that's the way he used to do it. And it's kind of no fail and much less messy way of making yucky than if you wanted to try and do it rather
+
+[37:24] than, you know, rolling on boards and all this stuff. What do they teach you guys to do, Stas? You never did that with Cesare? No. No? He did one with ricotta. I'm sure that's good. Yeah, potato. I'm sure that's good. But yeah, but that's a good way to hide some chicken stock and some broccoli in there in there pasta. And my kids actually eat. You can buy the gnocchi head. You can buy it in vacuum packs, and it's just brilliant because it takes literally one. 5 minutes to cook and it's ready. No, no sweat. I also tend to blend a lot of anchovies into sauces and that's a way to get anchovy in there and everyone... It a well-known fact that everyone likes anchovies and no one thinks they do. So, you know, that's another good thing. That works. That's not going to work in a broccoli sauce as much because you'll notice it more. But in tomato sauce, nothing pops a tomato sauce like some anchovies. That's the one time I'm all right to lie to my wife about what I'm putting out of food because she will not eat it if she knows anchovies are in there. if you like everything I've ever cooked. had them in. Right, right. Like, like, is there any better pizza sauce than, like, like, reduced tomatoes blended with anchovies in it? No, no, pizza sauce with anchovies and it's freaking delicious. It's delicious. And yet nobody thinks they like it. And it has never once been rejected when I've served it to someone, ever. Ever. Hey, that's awesome. Oh, and by the way, I didn't know. I sent you a message on Twitter. You can shotgun a bottle. Yeah, that was you. How do you how do you shotgun the bottle? How do you get the air in? You stick a straw in the top. And it's just as fast. It's just as fast as it can. I put a big hole in the side of a can with a key. If you put a drinking straw in the top of the bottle, and then just put your mouth around the top of the bottle with the drinking straw in, it lets the air in. All right. Well, I just said to someone else that I'm retired. I have a shotgun one in a long time. All right, so we'll, we'll, I guess we'll have to try it. have to try it and see what happens. All righty. Well, thanks for the tip. That's awesome. Okay. All right. Are you too? Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hey, David, what's up? How are you? Hey, doing all right. Your cell's cutting in and out. trying to hear you. what's going on? Okay. Can you hear me? Medium. Yeah, a little better. Oh, um, here's a question. I tried making my own homemade fish sauce and it turned out completely putrid. First, so what did I do wrong? Um, and 2nd is it even worth it to even try making? I just buy, score like red boat, which is the high quality one. Yeah, uh, I've had other people's homemade fish sauces that were delicious. The person that I would look at, although I don't know if she's published anything recently, is Sally
+
+[40:09] Grainger, who is making her own Roman style fish sauce garums. And I had her homemade fish sauce and it was some of the best fish sauce I've ever had in
+
+[40:18] my life. It is going to go through a putrid phase. I mean, it's going to be, Did it not did not clarify out? Did you not have the stuff sink to the bottom and the liquid come up? I mean, it was, I pretty much threw up when I opened a car. Yeah, yeah. Well, how long how long into the process was that? It was 3 months. Oh, yeah, so you waited long enough. It should have been okay. Did you not add enough salt? Maybe that's the issue. I mean, but, but, you know, isn't Garum different than fish sauce in that garum is just kind of strained? but there's not a fermentation to it? No, that's the stuff that they sell, the anchovy stuff that they sell now. Uh, and I don't know why the name just went out of my head, the Italian product that starts with a C.
+
+[41:09] I don't know what the heck's wrong with meat hair. Yeah, Kolatura. There you go. That stuff is not like original Gar. Original Garms very much like fish sauce. There were many, many different types, depending on how much fish was in it, and what type of fish and what part of the fish. So, and that changed, depending on what era in Roman culture you're in. Sally Granger, who did, I think one of the best kind of apicious translations, along with her husband, as a scholar of this,
+
+[41:39] was working a couple years ago, probably done now, her PhD on Roman
+
+[41:43] fish sauce. And she's the one who's one I tasted, and she had made one all from guts, the guts of fish, which is what
+
+[41:51] the one of the highest levels of garn was during Apecious time. And it was fantastic. And no, it is fermented definitely that way. My guess is, is that if it was extremely putrid
+
+[42:03] smelling on the order of like a serstraming, which is the Swedish putrid fish, that you just didn't have enough salt, because that, in fact, is how
+
+[42:11] serstraming is made, you undersalt the fish and then let it ferment. So I'm going to go ahead and guess that you just didn't have enough salt in the mix. Okay, uh, that, that, that may have been, that may have been it. And I, it's important to use the guts and had whole fish or should I use only gut? Uh, well, all of them make, all of them make, will make a fish sauce. It just depends on, I mean, I think that the enzymes and the gut helped to get it going. The enzymes and bacteria in the gut, help to get it going. So, you know, I wouldn't remove them. But, you know, I think either will work and have been used. Every part has been used at various times in history, all getting a different product. I mean, I think that, like I said, at that one period, the highest end
+
+[43:00] Garum was just from the guts, but typically the high end Garum was produced, the literature from whole very, very fresh whole mackerel that have been unbled so that the blood is still in them.
+
+[43:13] And so then, you know, they break down quite nicely with the addition of enough
+
+[43:18] salt into delicious fish sauce. And I know it works because I've tasted it. And, and, and where can I find this in about, about, does she have a book? Well, she, uh, you could look up her, uh, you know, the, uh, the
+
+[43:31] Apicius is, whatever it's called, De Ray, Coconario, whatever it is, uh, was the person on one of the more recent ones of that. And she's out of England, but I don't know what university she's doing her PhD in, but her name is Granger, I believe, spelled with an IGR. I believe it's G-R-A-I-N-G-E-R, Sally Granger, and she's, she is probably, or is one of the world's great authorities on that subject. Okay, I'll look for... How you thought? Have you had that? I've heard this stuff's amazing. It is. It's incredibly delicious. Go buy it now. Don't wait. If you know where you can buy it buy it now. It's delicious. It's different from the other Jap famous Japanese fish saucy Shiri, which comes from Ishikawa, which is also
+
+[44:16] delicious and tastes remarkably like the Roman guts only
+
+[44:21] garum because it's made from the guts of fish. So both of those you should run out and buy right now. Okay, I'm going to try it again. Let's see how it goes All right, very good. Thanks. All right. This in? Hi, Dave. Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. A longtime reader of your blog and listener to the show. The call number is now seared into my brain, but I can't call in when you're on and never recalled you giving. Oh my gosh, my phone giving the email over the air. So, Nastasia, what email should they use? You want to set up a whole separate email just for real? No, okay, so give me the email. info at heritageradionetwork.org. And send the questions to that and you'll forward them to Nastasia. Yep. All right. Uh, so, uh, a second. I got to find out where I was. So there you go. That's a good way to get into the, uh, to the radio coach. I have a follow-up from Andrew Switzer on the lemons. He says the fruit was store bought, and in the following tests to replicate the fluke, the zested skin molded.
+
+[45:20] Huh. Yeah. I don't know. Someone's got to have something on that. We'll see Okay. My 2nd question, somebody shows me is my iPad is acting up. My 2nd question is, um, regarding homemade vegan cheese and meltability. Before Nastasia starts doing her vegan face, I must say that I'm a proud omnivore, but I buy meat from a local farm, have no qualms about the idea of animal captivity or
+
+[45:44] slaughter if they were both done humanely, and have, on a dare, even eaten a hamburger while watching
+
+[45:48] PETA videos. That is kind of rough because I'm sure those videos are nasty. I'm sure they're nasty. However, I've been experimenting with vegetarian and vegan meat and cheese analogs
+
+[45:56] for 2 reasons. One, because even though they can be bought entirely upon, they can be, well, sorry, because even though they can, they brought it on entirely on themselves, I feel bad for opening up a package of
+
+[46:08] Boca burgers and teasy cheese for non-meat eating guests during barbecues. I, by the way, concur with that, I hate by having to buy store packaged crap for people when they come to my house because it's like, hey, you know
+
+[46:20] what? I cared about these other people enough to cook stuff for them. But you, because you have a dietary restriction, you you get crap. I'm with you on that. And two, I like the challenge. Also a good reason. I feel like I've gotten soy and gluten-based meat analogs down as well as
+
+[46:35] I or perhaps anyone possibly can, but I'm still having issues with making multiple animal
+
+[46:39] product-free cheese. I've tried a few recipes verbatim and the best one so far was a nut butter flavored nut butter, flavored with nutritional yeast and set with agar. It did technically melt, but needless to say, not to my liking. I also read the labels of some of the more melty cheese analogs to find that many brands of soy cheese have casing in them. So perhaps I might never get the meltability I'm looking for. I was wondering if you had anything to say on the issue other than just give them real cheese and tell them it's vegan before you launch into a 10 minute rent. Well, I would never do that. I do not believe in uh, lying to uh, Nastasia is different. Nastasia will lie. Yeah. Yeah. I do not believe in lying to people about what's, what's in their food because, uh, not because I think it's going to hurt someone really, but just because it's just not in me to do it. I can't, like, then sit down with them and watch them meet something, knowing that I've lied to them. It's just, it's not in me to do it. Here's the problem with it. Like that case scene is kind of a miracle. And it's what, it's the protein that forms the gel for cheese, and it's what makes cheese melt like cheese. And it's very difficult to replicate. So when they're replicating it, what they're typically replicating it with now is they're using,
+
+[47:47] and if you look at all of the meltable cheese analogs, they usually have, you can use high amylose
+
+[47:54] starch. High amylostarch will eventually melt out, and high amylostarch, as opposed to normal starch, has forms a kind of a rubbery gel in its sets, which is similar to a cheese. So that's in a lot of cheese analogs, but you need to have basically you need to have a structure for the cheese, something that will melt on emulsifier and oil in there to make it oily like
+
+[48:15] cheese, and none of those things can break once it's heated up. Now, one of the new things, and if you look at a lot of the higher end ones, they contain a lot of pea, sweet pea
+
+[48:24] products because pea, 1st of all, pea starch is fairly high in amylos, and secondly, pea proteins have the ability to form a gel that is thermally reversible, i.e. will melt out.
+
+[48:36] So they also make some, they're working on gelatin replacers, I think, with made out of pea proteins. But both of the galaxy foods and dia, uh, foods, which were 2 fairly highly rated, uh, cheese analogs that didn't have any sort of casing in them, both contained a whole bunch of pea flour, uh,
+
+[48:54] or pea products, pea protein pea flour. And they will set up to form a gel. They also had oil in them and emulsifier. So you're going to need to add those. These are incredibly complicated, and if you're going to use like pre-gelatinized starches. These are incredibly complicated, and this is a huge dark art amongst people who do it. And many patents are filed on it. You can read the patents, but it's extremely difficult to get a really good product this way, which is why people are
+
+[49:21] paid lots and lots of money to try to get it right. If you want to see an interesting review, go to veganbaking.net and look at, they have a bunch of these different cheese analogs and how well they melt.
+
+[49:32] Uh, and, and, you know, you can go look at the ingredients, which is basically, basically what I did. Here's a way you can make a somewhat acceptable cheese analog that's kind of brain dead. Just take and make something that tastes cheesy to you, right? using whatever you want, whatever flavors you want. Set it with, uh, um, my brain is so fried
+
+[49:53] today with low acyl geland gum, okay? Uh, and set it at a fairly high uh, thickness, like a half a percent, I think. I'd have to look at it number, but and then blend it. And then you have the texture of, it's, well, that's what's called a fluid gel, okay? And that fluid gel is going to be heat stable. So you can kind of make that fluid gel. The texture of kind of cheese that's melted. It's not going to be actually like cheese because it won't be gooey, but it will actually melt out, right, to a liquid to a sauce. This is how Wiley, at a lower percentage, does Wiley Dufrayne does his mayonnaise and
+
+[50:27] his, his fried mayonnaise and his fried hollandaise. Then, after you do that, you heat the mixture again and you add, you're going to add kappa
+
+[50:37] carragina and locust bean gum as a mix, hydrate that, then set it into a block, slice it. It'll melt at roughly 120 degrees, 120, 130 degrees
+
+[50:47] Fahrenheit, and it should be like cheese. It won't have the stretchiness of cheese. And I think Jack is shutting me down. So if I missed any questions, we got one more. We got one more. What do we got? It's a few pounds of skirt steak somebody bought. Smell the fine. look good, but when they cooked it, there was an overwhelming odor of blue cheese, which got more potent when they took a bite.
+
+[51:09] It was not dry aged. Any idea? Yeah. How long did they cook it? I don't have that. Okay. Here's what happened. You cooked it. It was low temperature cooked or no? No. How does read it again real quick. I bought a few pounds of skirt steak, smelled fine, looked good, but when I cooked it, there was an overwhelming odor of blue
+
+[51:30] cheese, which got more potent when I took a bite. What's going on? Well, it was not tried. That's the classic, that's the classic problem of low temp cooking, not getting the temperature up fast enough, and you're having lactic acid bacteria that are growing before the meat can
+
+[51:45] cook that typically happens in bags when the bags are sandwiched close together in a low temperature bath, and it takes more than about two,
+
+[51:53] 3 hours for the meat to get up to temperature where lactic acid bacteria are going to grow.
+
+[51:58] And so that is the, that's the only explanation I can think of because it's never going to happen cooking on a pan. That's a bacterial phenomenon and it's never going to happen cooking on a pan as far as I know. Oh, by the way, real quick. On the cream liqueur. I said I would look it up, and I did, that stuff that the person was calling in last week was asking about. Oh, okay, Jack, Jack. Jack's telling me I don't have enough time to actually go through it. So next week, I will talk about cream liqueurs. And yes, propylene glycol monosteriate is used in them to help stability. So you can go out and buy it. I'll talk more about it next week on cooking issues.
+
+[52:42] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Can't get it straight.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
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+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
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+[1:06] in culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management. From culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit international culinarycenter.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[1:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Ages. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:41] Brooklyn at roughly 12 here in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez and Jack and Joe in the Engineering Booth.
+
+[1:47] How you doing, everyone? Good. You were here early today. I was here damn early. I decided that I'm going to come to the studio and do some of my
+
+[1:56] research here. See, typically the reason I'm late is I'm researching whatever the questions are up until the last possible minute, at which point I get on my bike and come
+
+[2:04] here and, you know, I'm sweating profusely. And remember the one time I came and I couldn't breathe. I literally had to go to an early break because I couldn't I could not breathe. Uh, you know, plus uh, I have to bike, you know, next to a concrete uh, manufacturing plant, which, you know, I always inhale. It takes me a good 15 minutes to get all the concrete dust out of my lungs. So I thought to myself being, you know, like, why not actually do some of the research here at the freaking studio? Right? Doesn't that make me, like, it's unusual for me to do something that makes sense. But you know, there you have it. So I start the research and I'm like, oh. Now, I'll leave at uh, 10 instead of, you know, 1120. On that note, we have a caller. Oh, caller, you are on the air. All right, David, it's Brady. Hey, Brady, hi. is my cousin Brady, folks. My cousin Brady. How you doing? got a important question for you. All right, what do you got? The cocktail related. Oh, good. So a cousin of mine, um, is she has this thing where she goes
+
+[3:03] to, uh, like a dinner party every month or so with 4 other couples, and everybody's responsible for bringing in some sort of appetizer, and then they rank them by the end of the night, and someone is a winner, someone's a runner up, et cetera. Um, and they've come in 5th out of 5 couples for the past couple
+
+[3:18] events, and their daughter is beginning to, um, I think, think of them as losers, if you will. So the new one coming up is an adult beverage based
+
+[3:28] on sort of Mexican themed. The food is going to be fajitas, and everyone brings in a beverage, and they want to come in first. Their daughter's like, we can't have a 5th place finish again. Now, is the daughter going to be consuming the adult beverage? No, she will be home with the babysitter. Now, have they enjoyed all of the things they brought before, and they thought they were good, or did they acknowledge that they lost, or did they feel like they were robbed? Because if they felt like they were robbed, my suggestion is get new friends. No, see, like the last time I went, actually, I was in Boston, I went with them and they were fifth. I mean, what they brought was still good and all the food is actually really good, but they were fifths. They just are not taking it up a level where, I mean, the other couples are taking really seriously and they're sort of doing this in their spare time right before they go. Right, right. Right. And the other thing is this does not need to be tequila-based. But it is Mexican themed. Yep. Yeah. Well, I mean, okay. So these other people are thinking a lot. Are these people, are they kind of food snobs? Yes, but yes. Okay. So if people are not food snobs, I think it's a very bad idea to make them feel bad to guilt them into giving you
+
+[4:37] points. However, if someone is a food snob, then the best way to win is to pummel them with evidence such that they feel that they are the smallest human beings on
+
+[4:48] Earth with their lack of knowledge, in which case, I would suggest making something with an extremely rare mezcal.
+
+[4:54] I would go get an extremely rare mezcal. Uh, like, what's that one we carry now at the bar? It's like something that Almas. Like it's like super tiny, right? So it's not even that it's more expensive than some of the other stuff you can get that's better known like Del Maguay and all this other
+
+[5:08] stuff, don't like it rather. It's just that it's harder to find. And so be like, you don't know about this? What? You know what I mean? And then like, and mix with there. But if you're gonna go, um, Mexican, I mean, I would suggest maybe going
+
+[5:19] with a mezcal, the, there's a, there's always a question, do you want to try to go over the top or do you just want to
+
+[5:27] go, uh, really, really, just like spot on? I mean, do these people live in New York? No, they live in Boston. Are you going to be up there or no? No, I'm not going to be. They're living in Westboro, so that's sort of the western suburb of Boston. All right, because I was going to say if they really want to do something strange, they could do something similar to, you know, at Booker and Dax
+
+[5:45] Bar, we have a mezcal-based drink called Son of a Peach that has clarified peach juice in it, canned peach juice and
+
+[5:52] mezcal. So it's kind of Mexican themed, but doesn't take, it's not just a margarita. And, you know, that, I mean, I think that's probably going to be different from anything
+
+[6:00] that, that's at that place. They could probably go buy clarified peach juice and do something similar. I'd have to go get the specs in my head. I can't give them to you later, but do you think something like that might might win? I mean, I have a feeling that if everyone's going to do adult, everyone's doing adult beverages, that's just what they have. No, everyone's doing adult beverages. And I mean, I'm not for sure that everyone's going to do tequila, but if it's
+
+[6:22] a Mexican team, I can't see that, you know, out of the 5 couples that 4 of them are going to think outside the box and do, you know, something that's
+
+[6:28] gin-based, but still Mexican and team. Yeah, I mean, I don't even, I'm not sure. I mean, like, you can go super, like our friend Evan Clem once did a, you know, corn-based beverage as his Mexican themed
+
+[6:39] beverage. I mean, there are kinds of things you can do. The question is how challenging do you want to get? Do you want to just go kind of, like, food, like food knowledge geeky? you want to get like, you want it? You definitely don't want to go with tequila. You want to go with one of the other agave-based beverages just to, you know, kind of be an outlier, like maybe like a sotole or like a really interesting mezcal. Um, uh, you know, I think like, you know, what's in order is like a trip to uh, my well and uh, you know, here in New York and just like look at the, their cocktail list and then basically steal some of their ideas.
+
+[7:13] And that's the that's the best way to do it. Now, the other question is, is winning going to be strictly based on flavor or is it going to have to be some sort of strange garnish to pull out a win or at least like a 2nd place? The only the criteria for winning is your favorite. You vote for your favorite out of the five. Okay. And you're not allowed to vote for your own, of course. So you vote on the other four. Right. And do people tell stories? Um, yeah. Yeah. So you got to beef up on the story. Like, half of this stuff is this story. I can, I mean, if you serve people things and you have a really good story beforehand, then, you know, that makes
+
+[7:48] this stuff actually taste better because you have this big story. So I would choose like some sort of a rare, although not necessarily expensive, but, you know, more difficult to source or
+
+[7:58] strange spirit. I would then choose, like an herb or a fruit that is not kind of normal. And then everything else can kind of even out. Like you can just use lime juice if you want to as your as your acidity. I would probably do. I mean, I think it's interesting to do stirred drinks. I wouldn't necessarily go for a shake and drink, like a margarita, just because that's kind of what you're expecting. I would maybe go for a stir drink, which you could probably pull off a little more of the
+
+[8:28] sophistication, and that adds a little more to the monocle in the eye, food snob kind of a vibe that I think you need to win these sorts of things. Uh, and probably get some sort of a spot on garnish. I mean, you know what, Booker and Dax. We kind of don't typically do the garnish thing just because we don't want to be labeled as like the, you know, the people who, you know, do all the fancy tech
+
+[8:49] garnishes. Although in this case, that seems like it'd probably be a good idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this being helpful at all or is this too general? No, this is helpful, but I mean, she also, she sort of made a point of saying that she does not have liquid nitrogen. You know what I mean? So like they, they can do stuff, but, um, I think if it gets too difficult, they're just
+
+[9:05] going to not, you know, they have 2 kids, so. If you're going to do a stirred cocktail, the best way to do it to get the temperature almost exactly right
+
+[9:12] is, especially if you're going to use a fruit juice. So let's say they're going to use a fruit juice in it. You can't use a fruit juice and a spirit and then stir it and then have the temperature right. Okay. If you store the whole thing in the freezer, then the temperature won't be right because it's going to be too cold. What they should do is just go buy some 2 inch ice cube freezing thing so that they can get like nice, fairly nice. I mean, not like, you know, not super clear grade, you know, the style that we
+
+[9:41] use that we pay a lot of money for, but, you know, fairly nice ice cubes. Get like double old fashioned, figure out whatever garnish their glasses, figure out whatever kind of garnish they're going to use. Freeze the ice cubes, get the liquor base, freeze that, and then keep the fruit
+
+[9:54] juice or whatever in, you know, plus whatever water they need in the fridge. Then when they mix the freezer, they mix the freezer booze with the fridge, um, juice, it'll add up to the exact right temperature in the glass, at least usually does. And so they can get something that's in perfect condition without a lot of stirring and
+
+[10:13] mess and worrying about it. And all they have to do at home is, you know, to practice is choose the booze, keep it in the freezer and whatever fruit juices they're going to balance it with in the fridge, do their mix
+
+[10:25] testing and then and then go. But a stir drink is going to be easier because it doesn't require a lot of texture. They can prefigure out the balance they need in terms of dilution. It can all be kind of pre-done, mixed, and then just, as long as you have access to that other person's freezer, bang, and then a nice 2 inch ice cube, and then, you know, a good either twist or some sort of fancy fruit as a garnish. It shouldn't take too much longer. It's going to take more because they're going to have to think in advance of what they're going to do, but it shouldn't actually take many hours of work. Okay. And I might say peach juice, if you can get clarified peach juice, even if you can't, doesn't have to be clarified. It's just, you know, how that's how we roll. We clarify most things. But like something like peach and mezcal go very, very well together because it's reminiscent of smoky, kind of like a grilled smoky peach, which everybody likes.
+
+[11:12] So like peach, uh, lime views, some sort of like smoky mezcal, uh, maybe even then balance with a little bit of uh,
+
+[11:19] tequila because mezcal can sometimes be a little overpowering a drink like that, uh, stirred with some sort of nice garnish in
+
+[11:25] a in a double old-fashioned. It's not a lot of work, but it's good. You're probably going to have to add a little bit of water just because otherwise it's going to be too intense, just like straight peach and booze and lime too intense. Then you might have to add some sugar to it, like a couple bar spoons of like Demerara syrup to give it more brown sugar notes, which brings it more on the grilled peach. And that's just if you're going to do peach. You can do a different fruit. But it is summertime. Right. Okay, so just in the final thing, you keep saying maybe throw garnish in there, like what? What would be a good garnish? Everyone likes like some sort of like fresh piece of fruit. I mean, they can't vacuum infuse, I'm assuming they don't have a vacuum. No, but they could like, you know, they could marinate some fruit in a different kind of a booze for a couple of days and then put it on a
+
+[12:08] skewer and that always looks festive and tastes good, but it should taste good. Garnishes shouldn't just be. I mean, I'm not an umbrella sort of. okay, I am. I really like an umbrella and I like a cocktail monkey. I have to say. Nastasia, do you enjoy the cocktail monkey? Yeah, everyone really, everyone we say that we don't enjoy it, but we love it. We do. Everyone does. The little flamingo. I mean, who doesn't like that? you know? So, you know, there's that. Oh, man, here's another one. If you really want to, if you want to go Looney Tunes, you can go buy some, and, you know, but if you want to go on the
+
+[12:35] kitch side of Delicious, then go buy some fresh juice coconuts. They're still available right now and then serve everyone, you know, hack the top off, drain the stuff out, throw the coconuts in the freezer. Those become the glasses, and then you can make a drink. Normally I do rum with the coconut water stuff because but you could definitely balance out a mezcal or tequila drink with coconut
+
+[12:58] water and then serve it in that thing of coconut, which is, if you want to go on the kitchen side, is cool. As long as you're like, oh, we know it's kitch, but, you know, the monocle will pop the monocle out of your eye, and then, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. That's good. I wrote all this down, Dave. So that's very helpful. I'm going to pass it along and fingers crossed that she wins. All right, thanks, Brady. Let us know how goes. Thanks. All righty. Okay. Now, I have some questions in from last week. I'm going to go. Oh by the way, call any questions. 718-4972128 718-497-2128. Okay. Uh, question from last week uh, that I didn't answer from Brian. I don't think. didn't answer the birth syrup question, did I? Okay. I've heard that birch syrup is also wonderful and different from maple maple syrup. What do you know about it? It is true that maples are not the only trees that are tapped for their sap to produce
+
+[13:49] syrups. Birch is as well. I have had birch syrup only once, and it was many years ago, I would say, like 6 years ago when I 1st kind of learned about it, and I don't really, I can't really say that I've tasted it because the sample that I got of birch syrup
+
+[14:06] was, in my opinion, flawed. It tasted like it had kind of gone, it had a sour taste to it, that I wasn't expecting, and it tasted like it had been burnt a bit when it was being reduced.
+
+[14:16] And so I'm going to go ahead and say that I haven't actually had birch syrup at
+
+[14:23] its, at what I assume is going to be its best. I will say this about birch syrup. The production is incredibly small. I, you know, we should go get some more, see what it's like now because I, I love anything, anything like that. You know, Styles, we should get some birch syrup. Burst sap has a much lower sugar content than maple sap does.
+
+[14:43] And so you have to acquire more of it and boil it down more. But I'm anxious to hear anyone else's experience on birch sap. Maybe it's supposed to have a little bit of a sour note to it. Maybe it's supposed to taste a little bit burnt, but my impression of it was that my sample was
+
+[14:57] flawed, and I handed it to a bunch of chefs. I gave some to nils. I gave some to a bunch of people. I said, do you think that this is what this is supposed to be like, or do you think this is flawed? And everyone said, this is flawed. So I don't, I don't, I can't say I know what it, what it tastes like, but I also am intrigued and I love any sort
+
+[15:16] of new, I'm a new ingredient freak. So, you know, if we can use birch syrup, then, hey, let's do it. Let's get it, right? Sorry, I couldn't be more help. Okay. Now, we had another question that I didn't get to on cream liqueurs. And I said, I would deal with it this week. So here I am. So I looked up on the interwebs, some recipes, some industrial recipes for making cream liqueurs. And what's what's in them? And typically, you're not required to have an emulsifier in the cream liquor, although it can help, but they are typically in the range of 12 to 16%, milk fat, 15 to 20% sugar, uh, 2.5 to 3.5%, uh, sodium, case in
+
+[16:06] eight, that's milk protein, uh, non-fat milk solids, uh, one to 3.5%, and 14%
+
+[16:13] booze, balance of 46 to 50% uh, water. Now, what does this mean? What does this, what does this mean? It means they're fairly high in fat. And they are clearly having it milk solids and caseine, and the caseine is acting as the emulsifier there to keep everything together, which is a
+
+[16:30] protein. Notice the booze content. By that, I mean, ethanol is low. So it's in the range of 14%. So I think that once you add more alcohol, the alcohol is
+
+[16:42] going to start to destabilize the emulsion. So it, you know, the caller that called in before, I think he was having phase separation problems with my memory serves me right, not curdling, not breaking, but phase separation.
+
+[16:54] And so to me, that means that the emotion is destabilized. And that might be because the alcohol content is too high. The other thing that you might want to do, which is what he says, add an emulsifier. And by adding an emulsifier to it, you're going to reduce the amount of creaming,
+
+[17:10] i.e. separate phase separation that you have. And you're going to want to go look at a book, and it's going to be the next book that I try and get on the highly technical stuff called Food Emulsifiers and
+
+[17:20] their Applications by Gerard Hassen Hoodle, Hassen Hoodle, I think, is how you pronounce the person's name. And it really talks about the different kinds of emulsifiers and why you would use one versus the other. And when you're using something in a cream liqueur, you want to use what's called an alpha tending emulsifier,
+
+[17:39] and it's just a technical term, alpha tending emulsifier, and those types of emulsifiers tend to form
+
+[17:45] films. They're film forming emulsifiers that form at the interface between a liquid and an oil,
+
+[17:52] I should say, a water-based liquid and an oil-based liquid or air or whatever. And so those film forming ones are better at stabilizing things and cream emulsions, and one of those alpha tending,
+
+[18:02] film forming, emulsifiers is propylene, glycol, monosteriate, or PGMS. We have a collar collar on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Michael Matkin. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing great. How are you? Doing doing well. I like the cookbook. How's the cookbook doing? It's doing really good. You know, we sold out the 1st printing, so that's exciting. Awesome. Congratulations. Jack, can we get the applause meet applause meeter on that? He's slow on the apartment. There you go. Don't. Oh, I'm walking over here. So what's up? So I'm working on the equipment list for my 1st restaurant. It's going to be a sort of a small lunchtime place, and I wanted to get your advice on whether I should go Paco Jet versus another kind of ice cream machine. Okay. Uh, okay. So you familiar with pure food here in Manhattan? No. Okay, pure, it's called pure food and wine, right? That's Sarma Melangais's restaurant. And, uh, she is the only person I have ever seen who does all of her ice creams in
+
+[19:01] Paco Jet, um, all of them. And she had an ice cream shop attached to the restaurant called, I forget what the ice cream shop's called, like Lucky Duck or something like
+
+[19:11] that at one Lucky Duck. And she did like a lot of ice cream service just out of a pocket jet. So it is feasible, even in someone that's pushing a lot of ice cream to do it. But how much ice cream do you plan on serving? Um, not a ton. It's not like it's going to be an ice cream restaurant, but I want the flexibility that, you know, if I'm doing a dish to have an ice cream component
+
+[19:29] on it. You know, I would imagine it would be smaller scoops. You know, it's not like I would be serving Sundays, at least not very often. Right, right. So, I mean, Paco Jet is fantastic at having lots of flavors available in smaller quantities. So you could kind of, you, you, it's feasible to have like a flavor base that is there. And then, you know, even if you only use a scoop at night, it's okay because you can, you can only process the amount you need and keep the rest kind of, and you can reprocess it again and get it back into perfect
+
+[20:00] temper, unlike normal ice cream where you make the batch, and then from there on out, it's turning to crap, you know, as you look at it,
+
+[20:07] it's, it's losing its, you know, stuff. It's crystall, you know, decrystallizing, recrystallizing, blah, blah, blah, losing its texture.
+
+[20:13] Paco Jet is fantastic at, you know, the perfect texture, you know,
+
+[20:19] you know, because you just reprocess it if you need to. Right. How long does it take to spin one scoop? Not long. I mean, if you're spinning the entire PacoJet container, that probably takes, I don't know, 2 minutes or something like that.
+
+[20:32] All told. No, but three, maybe three. It's loud. You know, so you wouldn't necessarily want to have it in front of a customer, but it doesn't take a long time. And processing just, you know, one or 2 things
+
+[20:43] doesn't take very long at all. The one trick is you have to. Some people pre-spin some just because it's sometimes it gets a little soft when it, you know, right after it's spun and they like to firm it up a little more. The big problem... The big problem with the paco jet is the freezer temperature that you have it at is critical to the making sure that if it's too cold, if it's too cold, the product comes out kind of
+
+[21:06] powdery. If it's too warm, the product comes out soupy. So it's a lot about temperature maintenance in inside the freezer, and especially during a busy service going in and out, making sure you can maintain the temperature
+
+[21:19] stability. And I think that's why a lot of people will process a couple of scoops and then, you know, keep those scoops in a dipping well or whatever. But, you know, I've done it out of a freezer. You know, everyone kind of gets that thing to work in their own sort of way. The one, uh, some of the problems with paco jets are that, uh, if they break, they might have gotten better, but years ago, which is the last time that, you know, I had to use one a bunch at
+
+[21:42] the school, uh, if one breaks, they don't necessarily get you a loner
+
+[21:46] instantly, and then you're without a paco jet. And so, you know, I've had to help people out. If you have a friend that has one that can loan you one when yours is down, or if you can afford to have a 2nd one lying around. Uh, you know, then it's kind of okay, but, you know, they break more, they used to break more often than, for instance,
+
+[22:04] they Carpagianis do. Now, Carpagani, you know, uh, you know, the LB 100 is going to take up a lot more space in your kitchen, which I don't know whether that's
+
+[22:11] at a premium. It's going to cost like 12 grand. Do you know what I mean? They're fantastic. But if you don't need the volume on, you know, on the Carpaganis, then, you know, I would say, you know,
+
+[22:24] Paco Jet is viable. Just, you know, just be aware of the of the issues. Make sure that whoever you buy it from. you know, I haven't had to buy one in a long time, but make sure that whoever you buy from is going to help you get the parts quickly. It's not like all the parts are kind of proprietary on the inside, like all the belts and cogwheels are not labeled with any sort of normal labeling, so you can't just go to an industrial website and buy the parts for it.
+
+[22:46] which is irritating. But, um, they're great. The texture is great. They're fantastic. The other issue that's expensive is the stainless steel containers are expensive and people in your kitchen are going to tend to not realize that they're not Bane,
+
+[23:01] Maries, and sift them around, which can be also problematic. Uh, the guys at pure food uh, and wine used to freeze their stuff in quart containers and then jam those into the uh, stainless steel buckets for spinning.
+
+[23:16] And it works great. The one problem is is that if you jam it in crooked. and it's loose, and the blade, as it comes down, hits it cockeyed, you can shatter the blade. So, you know, it's a question of what, you know, what risks are you willing to take? It won't ruin the Paco jet, but it could, you know, could cause that kind of a problem. You're shoving it down in there, in the plastic or you're taking out of the plastic tub and shoving that block of ice down into the
+
+[23:42] stainless. Yeah, the ladder. You pop it out of the, uh, you pop it out of the core container and jam it into the, into the stains, but it's not an exact fit. You have to really jam it down and make sure it's not at an angle. The blade really doesn't want to all of a sudden hit something thicker than its, you know, incremental slicing. Yeah, I got it. I got it. Okay. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, but yeah, I love Paco Jet. They great. I mean, they really are great. For all that I'm, you know, complain about the fact that they cost a lot. And, you know, that they're still fantastic pieces of equipment. Cool. Well, thanks for the advice. That helps a lot. All right, thank you. Thanks for calling. Don't be a stranger. All right, bye bye. All right. Hey Jack, you want to go to our 1st commercial break? Yes, sir. Coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[24:31] This is up from the South from the Buddhos band.
+
+[25:13] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and
+
+[25:23] California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restorateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Hey Jack, what's the music that you put there with Dorothy? Oh yeah, some dreamy music. Yeah, there is some dreamy music. It's like ad music. Hey, what's up? No Wiley? No Wiley? No, no love for Wiley. I don't know. Maybe that's on the second commercial. Second commercial. That's the problem with having so many good graduates, is that, you know, you list, you make one
+
+[26:04] list, and then they were like, what? The deans, too. All those deans? Yeah, we got some good deans over there. They've been promoting you a lot, actually. Nice. I appreciate promotion's good, right, status? So I say, I don't care. I don't care. Don't talk to me. I'm emailing people. All right. I had somebody real quick. I had a cooking issues listener ask if Nastasia is actually, this is real. They're like, is she actually like rolling her eyes in the studio sometimes? Because it sounds like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can hear the eyesight, right? How do you hear that, you know? It's the pause and then I think the sardonic reply. I think that's what it is I confirm that it does indeed happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right now, Nastasia is buying some shoes on Sapos. Okay, I'm paying lots of bills. What kind of bills? debt. Awesome. Okay. She didn't have the debt at 10 AM this morning. The deck came in at noon, just so you know, deck wasn't there at 10. That's only there at noon. Okay. Uh, this question in from, uh, Gene. I assume it's Gene and not a Jean. Uh, Gene Doe, which is an awesome name, Doe, right? Dough? Like dough, not like dough, like dore mi, like dough likes dough nut. And not, well, not like do, not deep. You shouldn't spell donut, Dio, and UT. That's horrible. It's an abomination. It's dough, like, dough that you work with. Anyway, I want to posted this to me and to ideas and food. Want to poach using ocean water? Any thoughts on dilution or other consideration? I would dilute it, right? It's just, I would filter the heck out of it. You know what I mean? And make sure that you don't get it from like the swampy tidal pool thing, which is what I already responded to this on the Twitter, but, um, just saying, I don't think you needed Luda, but be aware that seawater is a lot more bitter than salt water because there are many other salts in seawater other
+
+[27:54] than uh, other than, you know, sodium chloride, table salt. And to kind of get an idea of what that does for flavor, you can pick up Nigari, which
+
+[28:03] is, you know, the Japanese salt that they use to set tofu. You can also set tofu, by the way, in seawater. It's possible to set tofu in sea water. That an old school way of doing it. But if you taste Nigari, which are all the salts left over after most of the sodium chloride is removed. That bitterness is what you get out of seawater. So just be aware that that flavor is there. But people have been using microfiltered seawater for, you know, a long, long time. It was especially popular ingredient in kind of high-tech Spanish cooking, um, and probably still is for all I know. Okay. Uh, we got anonymous in. Please ask Dave Arnold, if venison from a deer, addled with Lyme disease is still edible, yuck from Anonymous. What are your thoughts in session? before I tell you the answer, what do you think? I know the answer is probably, it's fine. Just because you know me and my answer to everything is fine. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you happen to be right. I mean, I don't think the reasoning is good on your part, but you happen to be correct. I went on the CDC, which is the Center for Disease Controls website, and I've kind of looked up to see what the theory is. And Lyme disease is a disease. Actually, you know, it can be easy to treat if you catch it early. If you don't catch it early, it can be really horrible and can cause central nervous system problems that can be
+
+[29:19] persistent almost indefinitely. It can be really bad. Uh, and they, you know, it's named after the town in Connecticut nearby here, uh, Lyme, where I guess it was 1st uh, noticed, and you get it from deer ticks. Most, you know, most from deer ticks. And it has a life cycle that goes from deer tick to rodent to deer, but, you know, around
+
+[29:39] in this big circle, and you get it, that tick bites you, the spiracet is injected into you, and then you get the
+
+[29:45] lime disease. Sometimes you get a bull's eye rash, sometimes you don't, and you get muscular, you know, muscular pains and
+
+[29:51] headaches blur, all the nasty stuff, and you treat it with antibiotics, but you got to catch it early. Okay. There's no evidence. This is from the CDC directly. There's no evidence that Lyme disease is transmitted from person to person, so you can't get it from infected from touching,
+
+[30:05] kissing, or having sex with a person that has Lyme disease. So what this means is that bodily fluid contact is not what's going to cause the Lyme disease. And similarly, although Lyme disease during pregnancy can cause problems. Um, a lot of problems, such as infection of the placenta and whatnot. If the baby makes it baby's okay. And although there have been no cases of Lyme disease linked to blood transfusion, they still don't recommend that you give blood if you know you
+
+[30:34] have Lyme disease. So what this means, what all this means is that you're not going to get it from eating venison or squirrel meat. And they say, for instance, that you're not going to get Lyme disease from eating venison or squirrel meat, but in keeping the general food safety principles, meat should always be cooked thoroughly. And here's the here's the key. The key is, note, hunting and dressing deer or squirrels may bring you into close contact with infected
+
+[30:56] ticks. So if you are hunting deer that are been addled with Lyme disease, then you are in much greater contact with
+
+[31:05] the, with the, you know, the environment where you're going to get a tick.
+
+[31:10] So you do tick checks, be careful, put, you know, repellents on you to keep ticks from jumping on you, you know, like soak your clothes and whatever that is, pyrethra or whatever it is that stops
+
+[31:20] it, that takes from getting there. But that's the main thing. Now, the interesting thing with deer, disease that no one knows what the what the final thing is going to be on isn't Lyme disease. It's chronic wasting disease, which you get from elk and I guess other deer, but not here on the
+
+[31:32] east coast. you get it in kind of the north, middle of the country. And this is a sponge of form encephalopathy, you know, a TSE, a transmissible sponge of form encephalopathy, similar to
+
+[31:45] Jakobs Kreutschfeld or Mad Cow, and causing neurological disease in elk and deer, not thought to be transmissible to humans.
+
+[31:56] However, wise word on the street is that you never know when uh, the TSC, which is a pre-on-related, uh, so like this weird little protein,
+
+[32:05] pre-on-related, Jesus, when they're going to be able to change a little bit and make the jump from one animal, uh, for instance,
+
+[32:13] cows from mad cow disease to human beings. So we don't know. Like, uh, we don't know whether there's ever going to be a sheep-based uh, scrapey that can come over to us. We don't know if there's going to be a chronic wasting disease that can jump and come to us. And the fun part about, uh, you know, transmissible uh, sponge reform encephalopathies is they have something like 10, 15 year incubation period.
+
+[32:35] So the thing that kills you, you could have eaten 10, 15 years ago. Awesome, right? Is that super happy times? Super happy times. And so because of that, I make a general rule of not eating, not eating brain matter or nerve tissue unless like someone really offers it to me and I'm like, and I feel like I'm going to be extremely rude, not eating
+
+[32:56] it because being impolite is much worse than dying in 15
+
+[33:01] years, not really, but it's kind of what happens. So, uh, I tend to stay away from that stuff and I know a lot of other people that do too, just because we don't know how that stuff's
+
+[33:09] going to suss out yet. Okay. Uh, hello, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. Finally, we're getting called out in the right and the right stuff. Dave, you mentioned in several shows, including the last one, that you like making chicken stock at home in the pressure cooker. You've alluded to several changes to regular recipes that are required to get a good result, such as doubling or
+
+[33:30] tripping tripling the amount of onion using less water, et cetera. Could you spell out specifically a typical recipe that you will use that you would use? Also, I make a cocktail that uses a leucuma puree. However, it's very difficult to find here in the Bay Area, and I cannot always get it. Do you know of any reasonable substitutes I could try? I've bought lucuma powder, but I haven't had much luck. It doesn't taste the same and imparts a gritty texture to the drink. Thanks, love the show, Michael in Oakland, California. Okay, I'm going to handle this in reverse. I don't yet have a good substitute for Lucoma puree. I haven't used it really. That much. I've had it kind of preserved, but I've never had the fresh stuff. I've had similar related fruits from South America and
+
+[34:14] Colombia, but I'm going to have to do more research on it. In fact, I'm going to Columbia in at the end of August and I'm in Luca's Peruvian. And it's like one of these Peruvian superfruit jobies that they're doing a good job marketing. So when I go, I'm specifically going to do some research, I'm going to try to get the fresh stuff that's closely related as I can to it, even though
+
+[34:35] it's not, I won't be in Peru, I be in Colombia, and then the other substitutes. And then once I have more experience using the real deal fresh stuff, then I will be able to make a
+
+[34:44] good substitution for it. Powders. Yeah, there, you know, there, you know, yeah, typically things like that might, in part, a gritty texture to a drink. And the real question is, are you adding the lucuma for what purpose? For creaminess, for taste, for what? Uh, so I'm going to do more research. And then, uh, if you want to send an email back, like at the beginning of next month, right when I get back from Columbia, I'll have an answer for you. And also, please email why, you know, what it is
+
+[35:12] you want, what it is you want to mimic about the Luke. Everything or just the flavor or just the texture, right? And then we can kind of work from there. Okay? Now, back to the stock. Um, When I make, so it's, I don't actually have a specific recipe. I feel like I'm really doing you wrong, Michael, but I don't have like a specific recipe that I use. I just know that I kind of, I always do stocks really by eye, which is dumb, but when I do it at home, I'll
+
+[35:44] typically, uh, I'll typically won't even roast off my bones. I'll brown the bones in a pan. So let's do chicken. Like, I'll take chicken, uh, a lot of backs and, you know, the excess meat from that. Usually when I fry chickens. I have a lot of bones and backs and stuff left over. I have all the bones, in fact, because I make boneless fried chicken. I'll chop them up fairly fine and then I'll cook them actually in the pressure cooker in
+
+[36:09] batches just so I don't have to go roast. When I'm cooking, you know, in a professional kitchen, I'll roast. Uh, and I'll, you know, I'll also like uh, roast off uh, the vegetables as well. Uh, and then put them in. I do typically add probably twice as much onion when I'm doing pressure cookers when I'm doing a traditional stock. You don't need to, just be aware that the onion flavor will be different and will be a little bit muted.
+
+[36:31] You can add a little bit of fresh onion afterwards and do like a 10, 15 minute simmer of freshly sweated, not fresh, fresh onions, but freshly sweated onions
+
+[36:39] to bolster, bolster that back up. Don't alter your celery, uh, or your carrot uh, amount or it'll come out kind of to carrot and 2 celery. I jam the bones down in as hard as I can. And then I add water basically just to cover the bones and no more. And I think, you know, one of the issues, everything depends on what you're going to use it for. you know, from years of having the stock that they make at the at the French
+
+[37:03] Culinary Institute, now the ICC. In my opinion, all of that stock was, uh, it's too too watery. So like normal professional procedure is to add excess water and then, um, you know, boil it for, you know, simmer it for a very, very long time. And in the end, you always end up having to reduce that stock before you use it because the flavor profile is just not high enough.
+
+[37:27] Now, from an economic standpoint, it does make sense to use
+
+[37:30] excess. Well, I don't know, accepting the cost of gas to boil the stuff down. It makes some economic sense to use excess water because it means that the flavor, the liquids that are left in the stuff after you drain
+
+[37:43] it, have less of the less of the flavor and protein in them than they would if you diluted
+
+[37:48] it, and then you can boil it back down. My feeling, which kind of goes back to reading, you know, Peterson's
+
+[37:53] book so many times, is that the super long boiling times and reduction, constant
+
+[37:58] reduction while intensifying flavors can tend to dull the flavor. So I prefer to make a much more flavorful initial stock, even though I might lose some of that flavor
+
+[38:07] in the fact that there still is liquid clinging to the bones and whatnot when they come
+
+[38:12] out. So when I'm doing it at home. I try to go for the most flavorful one because cost isn't necessarily an issue. I'm not serving a lot of people. I'm just trying to effectively use a whole bunch of chicken backs that I have in carcasses. So I'll actually do a triple stock. I'll do veg, and then I'll roast off a whole bunch of
+
+[38:31] bones and I'll pack them in, fill just over the top with water, hit it once, and then drain that
+
+[38:38] one and put it with a fresh thing of bones and do it again. I don't do remiage at home, just because I don't do remiage at home, but, you know, if you want to do a remi stock with it, you also could. Um, Anyway, sorry, I don't have a specific. Obviously, I don't salt the stuff because I don't know what I'm going to use it for later. If you're making a broth or soup, you know, do whatever, do whatever you want. I do typically add the peppercorns beforehand, and bay, just because I'm used to it, even though Jeffrey Steingarten tells me that I'm an idiot for doing
+
+[39:08] so, because all that's happening there is imparting bitterness from the pepper, and not the aroma, which is very fleeting and goes away. But I like that bitterness. So I'm going to do it anyway, even though Jeffrey tells me I shouldn't. What do you think? I haven't spoken to Jeffrey in a long time, have we? Yeah, I know. Now, if we're going to say hello to my man Jeffrey. Sorry, I could not be more accurate. I looked up Miss Vicki's pressure cooker stock. She actually tends to be more Miss Vicki writes pressure cooker things. Actually, you know, I snuck around. You know, the Amazon, I did the look inside on Amazon because they don't actually own her book and it didn't give me the one key page in American Amazon. So I went to Amazon UK and they gave me that one page. So, like, you know, if at 1st you don't succeed on the Amazon, look inside, try a different
+
+[39:47] country again. Thank God to like amazon dot Czechoslovakia or whatever. Because I wouldn't be able to read the I'd have to go through translation, which is irritation. Anyway, but yeah, she cooks her pressure cooker stock for like half an hour on chicken, which I think is
+
+[40:03] reasonable, but not on beef. Um, the, you know, uh, whereas Heston, I think Blumenthal cooks for like an hour. When we were running our
+
+[40:10] test at the French culinary, I think we cooked an hour or longer for our pressure cooker stocks. Really, you're going to get, especially if you chop up
+
+[40:16] the bones pretty fine. You're going to get the vast majority of extraction in half an hour at 15 PSI. And so I think that's probably good enough, half hour, 45 minutes, then let it come down naturally. The coming down naturally is the key on the recipe there so that you're not boiling all the stuff out of the
+
+[40:31] bones and causing all sorts of emulsification problems, which we're going to deal with in a
+
+[40:37] 2nd because the next question, should we take a break real quick? We don't have much. Yeah, there's like 5 minutes, so I mean, maybe let's just power through it. Power through? I think that's probably a good idea. Power? Okay, power it is. Power. Okay. So which leads to our next question. Yo, what up with you guys? Can't get enough of y'all anyway. Thank you very much, by the way, for not being able to get enough of us. I can certainly get enough of this, right? Stas? Stas has enough of me all the time. Oh, wait, we have another food. Okay. Dave, I was wondering when your book is supposed to be put on the market. Well, I have to finish writing it first. The fact that I have not written it is putting me in deep hot water with my publisher,
+
+[41:15] but, you know, be, you know, sure that it's like my top priority now is finishing this book. And but after I write it, it's still going to be about a year before it comes onto the market. So unfortunately, no time too soon. Um, And 2nd question, more food related. Been having a little trouble with stocks lately. I always blanch or roast my bones, and skim, skim, skim, pass through a
+
+[41:37] chinois, and cloth, like, you know, cheesecloth. After reducing by half or more and chilling, I still notice there being too much suspended particulate. What's going on? Also, this refers to beef and chicken stock, not pork. Thank you very much. Philippe. Okay. Look, there's an interesting article on clarity and whatnot that I don't have time necessarily to go through in detail, but you can get the abstract for it online and take a look at
+
+[42:01] it. And it's called The Effects of Cooking Temperatures on the Physiochemical Properties and Consumer Acceptance of Chicken
+
+[42:07] Stock by Mark Krasnow, which came out in 2011. And they basically do cold start, simmered at 85 Celsius for a long time. It's cold water start, hot water start at 85. Cold water start, cooked at 99 Celsius, and hot water start cooked at 99 Celsius. And they run through, you know, questions of whether, which is clear, which is cloudy, which has higher protein, which has higher taste acceptance.
+
+[42:38] And I will just read, um, maybe their final results. Overall, the results of the studies show that there is a clear physiochemical difference between stocks cooked at 85 Celsius, i.e.
+
+[42:49] Simmer, and 99, which is right at the boil. The starting temperature of the water, however, did not greatly affect these properties. The assertion, however, the protein extraction is greater in cold started stocks, was partially supported by the results of this study, for the stocks cooked at
+
+[43:01] 99 C. The one that was hot started, had more dissolved protein, then the one that was at 85, the 85 had more dissolved protein,
+
+[43:09] then the hot started at 85. Okay? So, uh, so, so there you go. You can go read their paper on it because it's too complicated to suss out, you know,
+
+[43:18] just us out instantly. They did mention, by the way, that blanching beforehand was something they didn't treat as part of their study, but
+
+[43:28] it's in there in the discussion. So you should definitely read about it. But I'll give you my my points, my points on it. Okay. Um, So what you did is you said, you uh, blanch to roast your bones 1st and then uh, skim, skim, skim. Now, the skimming is supposed to get the scum off the top that otherwise gets emulsified into the sauce. By the way, you do this initial thing where you skim off the initial stuff and then you want to boil the hell out of it for certain Chinese stocks because they actually want to emulsify the fat. So they're using protein to emulsify the fat into your stock. And that's basically, that's the idea for called, like, cream stocks or milk stocks. I happen not to like them too much, but I haven't had that much experience with them, but
+
+[44:08] I'm just maybe just because I'm not used to them. I mean, I'm sure they're great in when they're used properly, but I haven't had enough experience with them. So, uh, so you want to do the opposite of that for a normal stock, which is to, you want to bring it up to the boil, uh, and then skim the stuff that floats off to the top because that's
+
+[44:24] gonna contain, uh, proteins that are gonna, if they get churned in, will help to emulsify the fat into your stock, which is gonna make it cloudy. All right? So, so, one thing I want to make sure you're not doing is that you're not, um,
+
+[44:36] uh, they, you're not boiling it too hard, right? The 2nd thing is you say you pass it through a shinois and cloth, and then after reducing by half or more and chilling, there's too much suspended
+
+[44:46] particulate. Here's what you need to do. You need to pass it through a shinois and a cloth carefully, like Layla. Don't upset it or stir it around too much, like pour it gently and whatnot. Then chill it 1st before you reduce it. If you reduce, before you chill it, you're not going to get all of the fat and stuff off the top. You're supposed to chill it. There'll be a lay, it'll separate into layers, you separate it, and then scoop out the gelet,
+
+[45:13] and then reduce the gelet. So maybe maybe that's the problem you're having. So the one problem you might be having, boiling a little bit too hard. It sounds like you're skimming it enough, so that's probably not the issue. Um, and the other thing is make sure you chill it thoroughly before you uh, do any reduction. Um, and if those aren't the problems, uh, there could be other things like the type of, uh, I mean,
+
+[45:37] that maybe you're including bits of the chicken, like uh, certain giblets can apparently cause cloudy stocks or whatnot,
+
+[45:43] but call, you know, email us back and tell us what the issues are. Okay, uh, we're about to have to go, but I just want to uh, go, why don't we have one last, uh, what is this, Twitter or email coming in? Hey, Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. First off, just want to say the Changua demo at SF Chefs last week was a great time. I didn't make it to the cocktail demonstration of the tent, but I'm sure it was awesome. Thank you. I'm a big fan of iced coffee. Usually cold brewed and sparkling water. But when I combine the two, it isn't a good result. Any tips on how to make a sparkling iced coffee. I'm particularly looking at ways to improve the mouthfield. Also, is there a way to make a cocktail version thanks, Tim. Okay, very good question, Tim. We'll take this as our last question today. Uh, there are certain uh, coffee bars. For instance, Bluebottle in San Francisco that serve you carbonated water with your
+
+[46:27] with your espresso shots. And it's kind of interesting. It's a different mouth. Also, Columba here in New York. You can get some carbonated water with your with your espresso
+
+[46:37] shopping, nastachia. You wouldn't like the carbonated water. I think they serve San Benedetto, which is not your favorite because you call it Agua de Boca. Because it doesn't have a high enough carbonation level for you. Because Nastasia, like me, likes a very bubbly bubble, right? You don't like like a, you don't like like a, like a petillon, like a minor bubble. You like a major bubble. Yeah, yeah, true, true. And in that, I am wholeheartedly agree. So this is one situation where I'm not going to rant against Nastasia's food choices because
+
+[47:02] we... Jeez. Okay. Now, the problem is, is that you get some very unusual results when you
+
+[47:12] add, um, the bubbliness, which has that sharp biting and people perceive as acidic, although I don't perceive it that way. I mean, you know, the science says that I do, but I don't feel about it that way. When that's mixed with coffee can be kind of strange. If you want to taste the only commercially carbonated coffee thing that I know of, there's a soda called Manhattan
+
+[47:31] special, coffee soda, which I don't know whether it's only regional or not. Have you had that, Jack? I don't leave in there right now. No, or Joe, have you had that? No, have actually. What do you think about it? I think it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it's a local specialty though. Right, exactly. It's actually pretty hard to find too. Yeah. And well, it's not made in Manhattan. on Manhattan Avenue in Brooklyn. Right. Yeah. Manhattan Avenue spot. Yeah, the factory is pretty close to here, actually, right? Yeah, yeah. But so what you should do is try to get a hold of that and then taste that to see kind of what the commercial version of it is. But yeah, it is it is a unique. It is a unique, kind of a flavor. My only problem with Manhattan special is that it's kind of too sweet. You know, what do you think, Joe? Too sweet? Or do you like it that way? Oh, I'm into it. You're into it? So go get a hold of that. One issue when you're making a cocktail and you want to carbonate it. Or any sort of carbonated coffee beverages, coffee, especially espresso, which is what I deal with, has some foaming properties to
+
+[48:31] it. And so, uh, it can foam like a, like a weasel when you want to carbonate. So when you uncap a carbonated coffee drink, especially espresso, which has a lot of suspended solids in it. You're gonna you're gonna get some serious filming problem. If you are a milk and coffee person, and you want to carbonate it. The milk can have problems because you can get curdling reactions with certain milk-based things, especially as the alcohol level goes up, but you're even more going to have an extreme extreme foaming a problem. And so you're going to have to make a very small amount of it and then let it foam off in
+
+[49:02] order in order to get it to work properly. I going to have to think more. I also, if anyone has a good carbonated coffee thing, Please write in. I'm interested because I haven't done enough experimenting with carbonation and coffee, but I definitely have experimented with it. When I make coffee drinks and I want them super foamy and creamy and cocktails, I don't use CO2. I use nitrous oxide, which makes a nice creamy beverage. And you can, I've made many coffee cocktails with nitrous oxide, although they do
+
+[49:28] foam. And that gives you the super creaminess that you get out of a fresh cup of
+
+[49:33] coffee, but in a cold situation. So I would try nitrous instead of CO2 unless you really want the prickly texture of CO2, in which case, um, experiment away. Cooking issues.
+
+[49:51] Vicious fish and vodka. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Fishes, fish, vodka.
+
+[50:35] me
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org.
+
+[0:22] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, their host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:31] Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Joined in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. And of course, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Doing all right? Yeah, microphones aren't working over there, but they're doing good. How you doing, Stas? Yeah, Nastasia is trying to find someone who's willing to move the crap out of our studio area in Brooklyn, in the back of Milk Bar
+
+[0:54] Commissery, to our new space on 54 Eldridge Street,
+
+[0:58] which Intel Eater actually showed up. They did not believe that we were not trying to open another bar there. Yeah. And when they showed up, we're like, here's one desk. Here's another desk. Look, a 3rd desk. And they're like, oh, so it's not going to be. we're like, no, no. No, it's our, it's our, it's, you know, it's Booker and Dax equipment company. It's our test our test place. But anyway, turns out that movers here in New York, unlike when you move it yourself, which is what Nastasia and I had to do last time,
+
+[1:25] make you put everything in a box. It's equipment. How the hell do you put a big piece of equipment in a box? I'm supposed to just go get giant like washing machine boxes to put everything in? They said or shrink wrap it. So we use that like, or shrink wrap it? What is shrink wrapping doing? I think you covered in plastic. But how's that helpful other than I get to destroy the earth a little more. their trucks. They don't want to scratch the trucks with the equipment. The insides of the truck. They don't want to scratch the inside of a moving truck. With stuff that they're moving. This is it. This is happening in the real life. This is what's really happening. Okay, then. Hey, our mic works and we're doing well. Yeah? Nice. Good. strong. Good. I was a little worried about you. I was pretty sure that there was still air in the booth though, and that you were breathing. Hey, do you know about our fundraising party? Can I shamelessly plug that right now? Are you doing it, Army Jack? You must plug away. Yeah, you're doing drinks. I am? Yeah. El Bujo Mezcal and we've got Absolute. We've got a whole bunch of stuff. September ninth at Roberta's from 5 to 8 PM. It's our 1st fundraiser. How much are tickets? 150. And where do they purchase said tickets? That is heritageradionetwork.eventbright.com. Yeah. Nice. And we'll take some of our techniques and put your money where your mouth is with our beverage,
+
+[2:43] right? about Gramercy Tavern and Del Posto. I think Brooks is doing desserts and You wrangled Brooks into doing it? Wrangle Brook. Brooks will be there. Nice. Yep. Back 40 West, China Pacifico, Inside Park, St.
+
+[2:56] Barts, Inside Park, at St. Barts. Bunch of other chefs would be really cool. Nice, nice. And it's here at the at the Roberta's Pizzeria? Yep, in the backyard. Yeah, so if you've never made the trek out to Brooklyn. Now's your chance. Now's your chance to cross that river. You can meet us. And maybe Indie Jesus may be working. I'm just putting that out there. I don't know Oh, now you have to make it happen, Jack. I might have to make that happen. Yeah, you know, I'll see what strings I can pull. It's not an easy get. Yeah, Nastasia, you're going to come to the gig, right? Yes. Yeah, so you can come see Nastasia and like, I think everyone should wear their best hipster outfit to come
+
+[3:30] and visit Nastasia at the... And you can get pictures with me in Indie Jesus. If Indy Jesus actually shows up. Well, he works on Sundays. That's what we, he's anti-anti-Jesus. No, you got to get your your your your Bible straight. First of all... That's supposed to work, but like one of the things that if you read the, if you read the, um, kind
+
+[3:53] of, uh, you know, the apocryphal gospels, like one of the things Jesus used to get in trouble for all the
+
+[3:58] time was healing people on the Sabbath. Aren't you supposed to stay in Jersey? Well, no, those gospels never made it into Jersey Speak. But, yeah, so he used to do things like, you know, cure people on the Sabbath, and that's one of the things he got in trouble for. You know, curing people at work. Work. You think that stuff just happens, curing people? Work. Anyway. okay. Um, let me catch some stuff from before that I missed from a couple weeks ago. Barry Muncasey wrote in because I don't think I got this. Question on Twitter, clearly I am overcooking or people are overcooking shrimp and shrimp boil. I didn't talk about this, did I say? don't think so. Uh, shrimp, sausage, corn, onion, potato, garlic, and Zataran spice, uh, perfect sous vide timing recipe. That's on with us? I don't remember. I don't remember whether I talked about it or not, but I think you might have. Did I? I feel like it might have. Wait, don't cook shrimp sous vide. Just cook all the parts separately, perfectly and then recombine them at the end. Yeah, yeah, you're right. did. I talked about shrimp shells. Delicious, delicious shrimp shells. Yeah, okay. All right. All right, Barry, I got you covered. But I know what this I did not mention. Pavlov at Pavlov, or Pavlov, on the Twitter, sent in a picture to us of how he cooked 25,000 lobsters in a
+
+[5:07] 5 day period at a festival in Maine, using something that looked like a steam giant kind of steam cleaner, huge pieces of
+
+[5:15] equipment. And his exact quote is, I felt bad until I ate them. Hopefully he did not eat all 25,000. The most I've ever eaten in one day is 10. Uh, and uh, that was the same day I found out I was allergic to cherries. So they thought it was lobsters for a long time that I was allergic to until cherry season came around the next year and sent me to the hospital again. crazy, right? Nutty. Anyways, so I had something else to say about that. Oh yeah, when I was a kid, check this out. For any of you that, um, I don't know, clean aircraft equipment for a living, there used to be an, in Oshkosh, every year in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, there's what's called a fly-in, where
+
+[5:48] all, all the kind of experimental aircraft lunatics from all over, everywhere, and also the old war bird, uh, nutties and everything show up and they fly in
+
+[5:55] and Oshkosh airport is for that couple of days the busiest airport in the world. And you go there and my dad used to fly seaplanes a lot. So we used to go to the seaplane party, which was a little off the way because you had to have a lake. And those guys had a giant, like, beer brots in 55 gallon drums and corn that they would cook in the steam cleaners that they would use to steam
+
+[6:18] clean parts, like giant, steam cleaned corn. That's what I used to eat as a kid. Maybe that's part of what influenced me to get to use dumb equipment to cook with. What do you think? Yeah? Possible, right? Okay. Now, on to current questions. Hi, Dave, Nastasia and Jack. Shout out to Indie Jesus. And I'm going to have to add via shout out to Joe. Remember, guys, give the shout out to Joe. He is a singer in a, he's the front man of some sort of like hardcore punk band, true or
+
+[6:46] false. True. Why have we not heard any of the music on the radio program? Uh, maybe one of these days. So if you don't give him a shout out, he is going, he is going to come find you. pretty much, right? I'm extremely scary person as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you probably don't know him unless you're here in the studio with us. I mean, you might know him separately, but in other words, yeah, odds are you don't. And he's a he's a scary man. He'll come find you. I'm just telling you. I'm telling you should give him a shout out, that's all. Okay. So Eddie Shepard writes in, I have a quick question, and also below a free, well, free from me. Not for you. Anyway, kidding. A link to the copy of my e-book. Okay, as a longtime listener and having asked the odd question on the show before, I was hoping it was okay to ask a question slightly away from the tech side of things and more on aesthetics and subjectivity. I wonder to what extent you thought about the presentation of food affected the experience of eating it, whether it is something you see
+
+[7:38] is critical to a dish, and if there are any examples or anecdotes you have relating to food either looking horrible and tasting amazing, or vice versa, beautifully
+
+[7:46] presented but let down in flavor. I personally think that the setting you're in and the aesthetics of a dish can potentially have a big psychological influence on your enjoyment of the food, but also the
+
+[7:54] flavors 1st and foremost. If I can make a delicious dish look nice, then great, I will, but if altering
+
+[7:59] it to look compromises flavor, I wouldn't. I wonder what your thoughts might be, and also if there's anything you might favor stylistically in food presentation. Okay. That's a great question. I think there's a very famous Spanish chef, very famous mercurial Spanish chef, actually, that Nils and I were doing, I think it was Nils and
+
+[8:21] I, might have been even before Nils was. No, I think Nils was there. Anyway, it's this huge event we had at the French Culinary Institute years and years ago. And all the big wigs were coming, like Faran and one Roka and all these guys. This is none of those guys. Another very famous mercurial Spanish chef. And not that Juan Rocke is actually not. He like this totally mellow guy. He didn't yell at anyone the entire time. The man's a complete, he's very, he's a gentleman, Juan Rocca. Someday I will get to go to his restaurant. Anywho? And Geordie too, the brother, pastry chef. Very nice people. Anyway, um, the, so this guy, uh, is well known for kind of like hyper presentation with, you know, like lots of tweezers and whatnot, uh, you know, tiny, like, you know, early on, uh, adopter of the,
+
+[9:07] the, like the micro mini micro, micro, micro green tininess, right? And, um, he literally said during his demonstration. And it stuck in my head forever that it is not only important for the food to look good, it must taste good
+
+[9:24] also. And this stuck in my brain and I've not been able to pride free because it's exactly backwards. It's exactly backwards. It is important. Like, it's not only important that the food tastes good. It's important that it looks good too. That is a true statement. Right? But, um, I kind of, my problem with food that's for presentation only is I think it leads to, especially we're in an era right now where, um, you know, a lot of food work is done on the internet, it's done in
+
+[9:59] books. It's done on television programs and it's done in demonstrations. And so there's a lot of work that's done that, um, where you can tell that it was done for the look and not necessarily for the, for the, for the taste. I call it, you know, cooking for demonstration. It's like you specifically make it so that it looks good in photos or in books or
+
+[10:22] in demos. And, I mean, I'm not saying you should shy away from the press, but that's why, in a demo,
+
+[10:30] I, I think it's important to give taste out so that people actually know that, you know, what you're focused on is cooking and the flavor. Now, I think that, you know, look, if you're cooking at home, it's one thing. It has to look appetizing, I don't really do a lot of plated work at home except for I used to on special occasions, but I don't really do it at home at home. It's more about, you know, something that looks appetizing, but, you know, in a home style. But when you're doing a demo or a dish or a cocktail, I think it's very important to have to have it look enticing and appetizing or in a cocktail scenario that have the presentation of making it be something that whets the person's appetite for what you're
+
+[11:09] making and it looks good or looks compelling. And, um, there are dishes that obviously the, your enjoyment of them is incredibly augmented by how they
+
+[11:19] look. Things can be enchanting, captivating, just in their look. And then, um, that makes it makes an already good tasting thing tastes better. But, you know, nothing is worse than something that they've obviously spent a 1000000000 years making it look great and there's no flavor to
+
+[11:35] it or the flavors clash and they don't work. You've had that happen, Styles, right? Do you enjoy that? No. She's not paying any attention. Okay. Got this guy to move our stuff, I think. Oh, well, okay, so All right. So Nastasia's not paying attention to what I'm saying during the radio show, but did, in fact, find a place a guy's
+
+[11:51] going to move our stuff. So kudos there. Now, there's another side to it, which is also true, and you allude to in your question. And that is that I have things that we have made that are freaking delicious, like delicious,
+
+[12:06] great, and yet I won't ever serve them. Why? Because they're hideously ugly, you know? Like a drink that looks like a murky brown mass and not like brown in a good sort of whiskey way, like just nasty.
+
+[12:18] And so, yes, there are, there are situations where, you know, looks Trump, how good something tastes just because I won't be able to get it past someone's lips. Same way. Like, I can make you a piece of chicken that looks like it's still bloody, cooked through all the way. No one will eat it. Why? Because it's visually repellent to them. And so I think both uh, both are important, but I think, you know, you're going to steer yourself right if you focus on flavor 1st and then uh, after that, like, you know,
+
+[12:46] like how can this presentation be um, best, best achieved, right? I mean, that's my feeling. Now, the 2nd thing we have in from Eddie, is Eddie just has a new book available, I believe, exclusively on the iPad through your iTunes, and it's called
+
+[13:01] Modernist, what's it called? Modernist vegetarian, right? Modernist vegetarian? Let me look at the exact title of the book because I downloaded it. Modernist, vegetarian, right. by Eddie Shepard. And so it's, it's, I read it. I didn't read it fully because I only got it this morning, but I looked through all the
+
+[13:19] recipes and a lot of interesting recipes, some that you can use without a lot of
+
+[13:24] heavy duty equipment, some that require a lot of heavy duty equipment. But, you know, very well, very well, clean photograph, a lot of interesting stuff. And I think, you know, one of the 1st times I've seen someone exclusively try to do a modern, a modern take
+
+[13:36] on, uh, strictly vegetarian. So, good kudos. you know, should go check it out. You can get a free sample on the iTunes. sent to your iPad and then decide whether you want to pay the paltry meager price of, I think it's like
+
+[13:50] 699. So it's not a giant, it's not a giant investment. Um, uh, one thing he uses quite a bit. actually that I haven't used. I'm ashamed to say it. is, uh, the pure coat B790, which is, um, you know, something from National
+
+[14:05] Starch, and uh, can be used to make like films and leathers and glasses and stuff, and we haven't really played with that. I don't think too much styles. Maybe I should, you know, I hate it when someone brings something out like
+
+[14:14] this and then I'm like, man, I haven't, I shouldn't have used that more. Man, there it is. We'll try to get some practicing with the pure code B 790. And we appreciate that you gave me a shout out on a couple of techniques in the
+
+[14:26] book. Uh, one thing is on your methyl cellulose. I like to know, are you using F50? It looks like you're using F 50? Remember to always call out the brands and the metal cell that you are using? All right. This is a shout out to Michael in Oakland. I still have your Lucuma puree problem on my mind, but I'm going to wait to answer until I get back from the Columbia because I'm going to mess with Lucuma
+
+[14:49] variants when I'm down there and figure out really good solutions for you. And with that, let's go to our 1st commercial break. Call your questions two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have for 11 arms to embrace you. For us to idolize you each time. You listening to I Wish I Were Twins by Plexophonics. What couldn't fall lips do? When for you, till you say that I'm yours, da da dum. I wish that I were twins, you great big baby kins. I could love you... Why don't pastures is a 146 year old multigenerational family farm that works in cooperation with nature to produce artisan meat,
+
+[15:37] who's safe, healthy, nutritious, and good to eat. Without fail, we ensure that our production practices are economically practical, ecologically sustainable, and that the animals are always humanely treated.
+
+[15:51] We never falter in our determination to conduct our business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit wideoakpastages.com. I wish that I were twins. You bet, big baby, so I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have for love and arms to embrace you. For us to idolize you each time I face you. And welcome back to cooking issues. Okay, Matt writes in. Hey, Dave and Stas. I recently bought a centrifuge on the eBay. And I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions or resources for cool things I can do with
+
+[16:34] it. There are a few ideas in modernist cuisine, but I want to take it further. Also, do I need to buy special bottles for the rotor, or will a basic mason jar, et cetera. do the trick. I see there are centrifuge bottles for sale around the web, but they're expensive, and I hate to lay down that kind of cash if I can go cheaper. Any thoughts, Matt? Okay, do not put a mason jar in there. Do not put a mason jar into your centrifuge. A couple of things I need to know before I go on. Congratulations, 1st of all, on the centrifuge purchase. Um, yeah, you know, I use a centrifuge every day. And we do mainly juice clarification with it. You're going to need to go out and buy the enzyme, pack the next ultra SPL, which is available at modernestpantry.com. Even though, like, what's the story? No more love for us, huh? Anyways. Anyway, you can buy Pectanex Ultra SPL at modernestpantry.com and you're going to need that with your centrifuge to do a lot of the clarification
+
+[17:31] work assuming that you have a lower speed centrifuge. Remember, the guys at Modernist Cuisine, have a centrifuge that can easily do like 48,000 times the force of gravity. Most likely yours doesn't do that. If it does do that, you definitely shouldn't think about putting a mason jar anywhere near it. Second thing is, is the centerfuge. You need to make sure that the rotor and buckets are in good shape, that they're not dented or messed up. Thirdly, you need to clean the hell out of that centrifuge. You need to bleach the hell out of that centrifuge and you need to take the rotor and pressure cook it to get rid of any sort of biological craziness that might be going
+
+[18:02] on and then bleach the hell out of it again. I think that large amounts of bleach soaking will kill almost everything.
+
+[18:10] I need to, I need better information on how to properly sanitize something against
+
+[18:15] preons, for instance. But you, if you don't know what was in a centrifuge, you have real problems. Second of all, I don't know what kind, like again, what kind of centrifuge you have, but the bottles that go into centrifuge rotors are, they're tough for a reason. They're going to go undergo a lot of stress. I spin directly in my buckets, right? Although I'm the only guy that does it. Everyone else is like, really? You spend directly in the buckets. I'm like, yes, I spin directly in the buckets. Um, never let detergent touch your buckets. You know what I mean? Because the detergent can negatively affect the aluminum buckets. I have purchased the expensive centrifuge bottles and I have found plastic bottles that work in
+
+[18:58] centrifuge rotors, but they tend to fail somewhat. So like back at the FCI. I had a super speed centrifuge that I could do like 22,000 times a force of gravity in
+
+[19:09] safely, and we used to use ketchup squeezies in that thing. And the ketchup squeezies. They worked okay, right, Stas? But every once in a while they would collapse, and then they would collapse. And then guess what? They've collapsed. Um, so, you know, it's a matter of be careful. Go on to cookingissues.com. Look at the centerfuge section specifically related to safety. You need to be safe with a centrifuge. You need to balance a centrifuge before you spin it. And don't put anything in there that can break and fly apart. And because there's a couple of things, right? There's not just like the broken glass in your centrifuge. If you break something in a centrifuge, and then you go unbalanced, then your centrifuge becomes unbalanced, which then becomes a secondary danger.
+
+[19:48] So you have to really make sure that everything is okay and in tip top shape. On the notion of centrifuge, though. So here's the thing. I think I mentioned this on the radio show a couple times, is that whenever I go do demos, they're always like, yo, come
+
+[20:04] to a tech demo. And I'm like, okay, what can you get me? Can you get me a centrifuge? And I was like, no. unless it's Japan. Unless it's Japan. They park high at Tokyo, Baller. Even Nastasia. By the way, Nastasia does not, like, basically thinks that everyone is like a useless moron pretty much. Right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's fair to say. Yeah. So for her, especially people that help us out in demos. No offense to those of you that have helped us out in demos. But like, uh, but like the Japanese guys at the Park Hyatt, it was the only time I've ever heard her say, man, these guys
+
+[20:43] are on top of things. They're good people They're good people They're good people. And like for Nastasia, like that means you walk on water. That's like, that's it. You know what I mean? You're like, you know, that's it. Okay. So centrifuge tough to get. Now, here's the reason why centerfuge is tough to get. They big. They're expensive, and they're not yet in a lot of kitchens, so not a lot of kitchen people have access to them. Now, Centrifuge I use at the Booker Index, and at the lab and at the school, they're all basically the same unit.
+
+[21:14] The one that Wiley has same style unit. Um, most people are using, you know, Chad, uh, and uh,
+
+[21:21] Christy, Chad song, Christy Pope, same, same kind. It's 3 liters, benchtop, does 4000 times the force of gravity, right? And that's what I've always called the sweet spot in centrifuges. Now, that is unreasonable for most people at home because it's too large, too
+
+[21:37] expensive, and you're not going to use it that much, right? That's clearly in kind of the divorce slash breakup with your significant other for bringing it into the house kind of range of things to do is to bring a centrifuge like that into the house. Even I do not have one of those suckers in my house. And I have pushed very far with weird crap in my house before. There is a centrifuge. I just purchased to take with me to Colombia that I'm going to run some tests on this week and see whether or not it's okay.
+
+[22:02] It's available Amazon Prime for under 200 bucks. And it only does, I think, 1300 times the force of gravity, but I've done some initial experiments with
+
+[22:11] pectinex ultra SPL and other clarifying aids. And I think I can get it to work at that level. Not as well and not as fast as the one that I have at
+
+[22:20] Booker and Dax, but pretty good. Also, the cool thing, I mean, the centrifuge is very small. So it really does a small amount per spin. It does 120 milliliters per spin, which is a little over 4 ounces. And this is useless for a bar because, please, 4 ounces. Come on. But uh, for testing at home and for making a couple of drinks for, you know, you and your family,
+
+[22:46] uh, this could be a viable thing to at least let you play with centrifugation and what you can do
+
+[22:52] with it. And so I'll be testing this week the $180, um, you know, you know, 120 milliliter centrifuges. Weighs £10 and is less than a foot on each side. So could be good, right? I'll let you guys know next week, whether it works or not. I hope it does because otherwise I'm out 200 bucks. Uh, but wouldn't that be cool? Oh, yeah, see, Nastasia really good with this stuff. This is why I have her around. Be like, just send it back if you don't like it. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but this way we can always have one of those things when we go do demos. Yeah? How much is away? 10 pounds. So it's nothing compared to the crap we carry around. I'll carry the, if you can strap it to my back, I'll carry the world. Okay. Okay. Rob, uh, Treypaz writes in about a couple things. Carpano and Antica Formula Vermouth, which is one of our favorites. Anyway, we use it. We use the hell out of it at the bar, even though it's absurdly expensive. Not absurdly expensive. But it's not cheap, right? Right? Okay. Uh, I recently discovered a Carpano Antiqua Formula Vermouth, and I've been enjoying uh, Manhattan's with it like never before. My problem is that by the ounce. It takes a long time to go through a bottle. You should drink more raw. That's the problem. I'm kidding. I'm not advocating that. Okay. The bottle is kept in my refrigerator with a vacuum van stopper, but it takes on an oxidized flavor towards the end of the bottle and takes up a lot of room.
+
+[24:19] How would you recommend I rebottle it? I have a bottle capper for glass bottles and a CO2 tank available. Should other lowerproof liquors like Lille, Cookie Americano,
+
+[24:29] Dubonay or Aperol be stored in similar quantities or under refrigeration. Uh, and then there's a separate question. Let me deal with this one first. Okay. There's an excellent question. Vermouth definitely does oxidize. And this is a problem we come across in the bar all the time. I wouldn't use, um, Here's the problem with CO2. If you purge out with CO2, you're apt to get like a light tingling in eventually in
+
+[24:55] the bottle, what we use in the bar, we make a bottle of Manhattan. We do a bottle of Manhattan, we dilute the vermouth in the whiskey, and it ends up being a lower proof when we're done than the vermouth was on its own. I think, or it's about the same, but the upshot is that it oxidizes even more in a prediluted Manhattan than it does in its own bottle. And so we have to have a way to keep them from oxidizing. So all of our low proof things like vermouth, um, in the bottle, anything like that. Not only do we store it very cold, actually a little bit below freezing, but not below its own freezing point, is we'll drop a little bit of liquid nitrogen into the bottle open. Uh, the liquid nitrogen. Well, then rest the cap on top, and you'll see a bunch of vapor coming out of the top of the bottle that's purging out the air, and then as soon as it stops actively pushing nitrogen out, we cap
+
+[25:51] it, right? There are other commercial systems based on nitrogen that you can buy that are fairly cheap, like wine
+
+[25:58] saver things, and that you can use to purge out the headspace. If you've purged a headspace out of your drink and cap it, you're good to go. Here's the problem. Nitrogen, I mean, we use it in liquid nitrogen form, so it's sitting on top of the drink and getting all the
+
+[26:14] air out. Nitrogen itself is actually slightly, um, nitrogen is slightly lighter than air. So it's going to float out of the bottle and so you can't actually just dump liquid nitrogen into it and then wait a long time and then cap it. But you can buy on the internet. You can just look it up. Uh, you can uh, buy a Argon-based system. So if you look at roughly the molecular mass, average molecular mass of air. It's about 28.97, right? So oxygen, heavier than air. You need to purge it out, heavier than the average air. nitrogen slightly lighter, carbon dioxide heavier. So you could actually roll carbon dioxide in there slowly and purge out the air, which is how I make
+
+[26:55] carbonated cocktails. But again, and that'll work. I'm just worried that you might have a little residual kind of a pringly thing. although try it. It might work. You know, like just like, like snuff some carbon dioxide in there a couple of times to purge out the headspace and then cap
+
+[27:09] it. I mean, that would technically work. But Argon is a real money maker rocking in at 39,
+
+[27:16] 39.9, um, as a molecular weight. So it's heavier enough, not quite as heavy as carbon dioxide, but much heavier than air. You can buy fairly cheap little argon cartridges and purging units on the
+
+[27:28] internets on the Amazon, and you can use that to purge out all of your bottles. If you want to just do it the way that you said you're doing it. I mean, that you have with carbon dioxide, I don't want to purchase anything extra. I'd be interested to know how that works. But we, I don't do it to Aperol, by the way. is the one thing on that list that I don't really worry about. I also don't worry that much about my dubonet, but maybe I should. We definitely worry about cochie Americano. We definitely worry about our lilay, and we definitely, definitely, definitely worry about our carpano, especially after it's been mixed
+
+[27:58] with, um, with, with the booze and diluted. I'll say this. We have run tests for a couple of weeks with diluted vermouth in bottles that have been LN purged, and I would, like I say, recommend
+
+[28:15] Argon or perhaps the O2, and then capped with no oxygen, and they are dead stable, at least under refrigeration. They're dead stable. So you can handle it and and it's okay. Um, especially you said you had a bottle capper, right? Yeah, you got a bottle capper for glass bottles. Boom, you're done. I'd have to remember in my head whether Carpano will accept a bottle cap, whether the Carpano bottle accepts a bottle cap. Champagne bottles except the bottle cap, but the Carpano bottle might not accept the bottle cap. Okay, listen, I'm going to go to my 2nd commercial break and then come back with Rob's 2nd
+
+[28:47] question. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. Every night, you'll hear crewmen of Russian. Lullaby. Just a plaintiff. Little tune wind, baby, starts to cry. Rock a bye, baby. Somewhere there may be. I land that's free for you and me and a Russian. Lullaby. You're listening to Russian lullaby, by Plexaponic.
+
+[29:50] Every night, You'll hear crewing, I'm a rushing, lullaby. Just a plaintiff, a little tune when baby starts to cry. Rock goodbye, baby. And welcome back to cooking issues. We have a caller, caller, you were on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Marvin Woodhouse calling from Germany. I had a couple of equipment questions, just equipment recommendations I was looking for. So the 1st one was for what we would call in the UK a barbecue, but I think you would call in the US a grill. Correct. Yeah, don't don't tell don't tell a Southern American that a barbecue is a cooking instrument because then you have to like listen to them for half an hour about grilling versus
+
+[30:43] barbecue. You don't want to do it. Yeah, so a charcoal grill, basically. So we, I had a weather before, uh, and and it was, it was okay. I had it a long time, but I'm getting some, I need to get a new one basically, because I moved countries and left the old one behind. So, uh, have you, is there anything particularly that's any good or are they all much of a much enough?
+
+[31:07] That's a good question. You know, on grills, Jeffrey Steingarden hates Weber's. Hates them, because you can't adjust the coal height effectively in
+
+[31:19] them. You know what I mean? I mean, what Webers are good at with that kettle shape is kind of allowing a pile of coals to radiate out
+
+[31:25] kind of either side. They're also relatively inexpensive, which is I think why a lot of people use them. And, you know, for me, like, the problems with grills,
+
+[31:36] uh, you know, I prefer like a nice heavy grate that can that can really, like, absorb a lot of energy and then and then give it back. But a lot of it's about versatility. I always want the biggest grill I can possibly get, but the flip side of having a giant grill is that, you know, you basically need to fire the whole thing
+
+[31:54] or or you lose a lot of heat. A lot of the grilling, I tend to do a lot of super high heat grilling, like very fast, especially like finishing off sous vide and stuff like that. Uh, you know. So at any rate, like larger grills give you more versatility because if you're going to do a high low situation or have the coals on one side and cook
+
+[32:14] in the other, you have more space to do it with, but the problem is, is they tend to consume a lot of charcoal. So if you're only going to be, like how many people are you cooking for? Uh, no more than sort of, I mean, aid at the absolute max, but usually more like, but sometimes down
+
+[32:32] to two. Right. Yeah. I mean, too, I mean, like, that's a huge difference, right? Like cooking, grilling for 8 and grilling for 2 is a giant, giant difference. You know, I've never used any of the smaller, like theoretically more fuel conserving grills,
+
+[32:49] like, for instance, the egg that a lot of people seem to like. Yeah, I saw those on Ake and Alex's blog. Right. Do they like them? Yeah, but they're really expensive. I mean, how's a coal cost in like hardwood charcoal? Is that expensive in Germany or no? No, not really, but like, I think the, the, the eggs can be up to like five,
+
+[33:12] €600 for that, that's quite expensive for a grill. Yeah. I mean, I in- like, you know, I've grilled on grill is really a lot about how you handle it. I would go for one with a big, with a nice, like, I like cast. I like the cast iron grates. They're not necessary, but I liked them a lot better than those thin wire craps. And I usually go for a larger size, just because it gives me more flexibility, just be willing to suck up a lot of extra charcoal because you're going to go through a lot more charcoal than you
+
+[33:41] ordinarily would. I have never used a grate that has like, I mean, a grill that has a really nice system for adjusting the height of the grill surface, but Bobby Flay told me once that he had one that did
+
+[33:52] that, and Steingarten once told me that he had one that did that, which would obviously be useful because it would allow you to get different heats without having to lift the thing and shuffle the coals around, which is everyone knows is a messy pain in the butt. And I know it's sort of a dirty concept for food snobs, but like
+
+[34:09] gas. is. Yeah, you know what? Like, I, like, so I've used gas assists in, uh, look, here's the other thing, right? I mean, like everybody knows that coal is great, but sometimes you just want to fire the sucker up and run, right? Yeah, because it's dirty and it takes time to heat up and stuff. I mean, you've used chimney starters before, though, right? Pardon? You've used a chimney starter before, right? for coal? Yeah. Yeah. But it's just if it was gas, I'd use it more often, I think. Right. Right. I mean, I used to have a unit a long time ago that I could go either way with, and I don't know whether I was legally allowed to go either way or whether I literally just threw an extra grate over top of the burners and went
+
+[34:51] crazy. I think it might be the latter. So that I could do. I'm a big fan of flexibility. And so, you know, if you're going to use the grill more often, especially in the summertime. If you have a gas thing on it, you fire it up. I mean, the one issue with most gas burners is that they just don't have
+
+[35:08] the oomph that you need, right? And so, you know, and if you, you know, as I, as I do, believe kind of the modernist cuisine mantra on, uh, what's going on, which is that the flavor of grilling isn't really from the coal itself, but from fat dripping on said coal, uh, vaporizing and coming up, then if you have enough power in your burners, then you can do something like chuck lava rocks onto it, and then use those lava rocks to get that kind of, uh, feeling of
+
+[35:39] the, of the stuff hitting it and going down. I think that most people's gripe with the gas grills is that just that you're not hot enough to get that kind of a thing to happen.
+
+[35:49] You know what I mean? But no, I don't I don't think you're a bad person for wanting a gas grill. You know what I mean? I prefer charcoal, but gas is just, you know, it just it's just more convenient. And then the 2nd equipment recommendation is my wife broke my immersion blender, which isn't too bad because it was
+
+[36:08] crappy. But she's, she's, she said she'd buy me as kind of a combo compensation and birthday
+
+[36:16] present, uh, uh, pretty much whichever one I want. What would you go for? Seeing as I don't think you've, you and Dave Chank have built your new one yet? No, I haven't. I only have, I mean, not crappy ones, but I don't have really the good ones.
+
+[36:34] I don't have a good one either. Have you tried a Bamx? I was about to say the Bamx seems to be the one that it's the only one I've heard people say that they, everyone loves having an immersion blender, but I've never had anyone say that they actually liked the one that they have.
+
+[36:49] The exception is the Bamx. Um, The downside of the Bamx is that it, um, it obviously the, the, the,
+
+[36:59] the shaft doesn't pop off of the Bamx to clean is kind of the one, the one downside it has. The upside, uh, for my, just, never having used it is that it's got a lot more clearance around the bell for, um, for
+
+[37:14] fluids to go in and out. And one of the main problems. So the 1st main problem with immersion blenders is splashing in improperly sized cups with not enough liquid.
+
+[37:23] The 2nd main problem with them is cavitation around the bell
+
+[37:27] in thicker products. For instance, you know, I use immersion blenders to do pancake batter, you know,
+
+[37:32] stab you, but I do. You know what I mean? Uh, and, um, uh, and you get a lot of cavitation issues with the standard stamped steel bells that are on most, um, kind of consumer grade immersion blenders, and the, and the Bamx 4
+
+[37:46] prong open kind of blade guard, I think, is not going to have as much cavitation problem as those. And so if I had to go out and spend my 99 bucks on one, I'd probably get that. Not having not having tested it, I might take the jump and get it. Is that, I mean, also, like, you know, like some of the other ones, like I happen to have a KitchenAid now, and I don't hate it, but I don't love it. It came with a bunch of other attachments, which I don't even know where they are. I've never used them. Yeah. They're more expensive over here. So like the, the, the price difference between a Bamix and the KitchenAid, there really isn't going to be one when you buy it here. Really? Yeah. And that little chopper that they sell, to me, is fundamentally useless. The whisk is fundamentally useless. Have you ever seen someone use one of those? Nothing looks more ridiculous than using that whisk on the end of an immersion blender. It's crazy. Yeah, it's you know, whatever. It makes no sense. And eventually, the, the, um, eventually
+
+[38:41] that the connection starts going wonky where it clicks in, and so now mine makes awful grinding noises when I, when I, when I'm using it. So all set. I do like being able, it makes, makes me allow, allow me to be a lot lazier to just pop off the end of the stick and put it into
+
+[38:56] water. So I'm not going to lie to you and say that that is not a benefit, but I might go with the Mamex
+
+[39:03] the next time around. Robocoup makes an incredibly expensive commercial one where the actual bell pops off to
+
+[39:09] clean, which seems like it would be nice. But I believe Bamex also has the feature that you can remove the blade. Is that true? I think so yeah. Yeah, that seems like it's going to be a bad idea because it seems like something's going to break there, but the biggest downfall, even with the removable stem immersion
+
+[39:25] blenders, is trying to clean underneath that blade, which is a huge hassle. And so the ability to remove that blade, assuming that it's not a failure point for the mechanism,
+
+[39:35] which obviously it has a possibility of being. It would be a huge boon to cleaning. I detest cleaning out the bottom of the blades of
+
+[39:43] immersion blenders. And I had one equipment recommendation for you. You've mentioned tablets and that's what I do for a living. So if you're looking for a small scale tablet press. The, the thing you want is called Arriva, R-I-V-A, mini press. Write that downstairs. You got that? R-I-V-A mini press? Uh, you, uh, they're probably, they're quite expensive. They're about 10 grand, 20 grand new, but if you can pick one up from a pharmaceutical company,
+
+[40:15] sort of from an auction. Right. Uh, you probably get one for way less than that because there's pharmaceutical companies going out of business, left, right, and
+
+[40:23] centre. So, uh and if you get one, it will probably be pretty clean. because they have to have logbooks and stuff for when you're using them to produce products. So I wouldn't worry too much in terms of uh too much in terms of contamination as long as you can kind of get it all visibly clean. uh and then and then wipe, you know, clean it with uh uh some, some solvent, uh, something
+
+[40:48] like uh, isopropyl alcohol or, or something like that, uh, you'll probably not be too bad to go. And how big is a dishwasher size, smaller? Uh, it's probably about the size of uh, uh,
+
+[41:05] Oh, I'm trying to think of something about the right size, uh, uh,
+
+[41:10] Probably the size of uh, floor standing Apple Mac. Ah, nice. That sounds totally doable. So it's a benchtop unit. It's a single station press, but it's, it's a really, really nice piece of kit there, but
+
+[41:25] Reva is an Argentinian company, but they're, they're one of the standard sort of research and development tablet presses.
+
+[41:32] So, like, it's not really, really fast or anything, but you, it's, it's, because you only need the one punch. It's pretty versatile in terms of you don't have to buy stacks and stacks of the tooling for
+
+[41:46] it. You only need one set. Nice. I appreciate that. Hey, you want the, you, you didn't call in with the question about trying to get your kids to eat things, did you? Yeah, I did. Okay, listen. lucky day that you called in. We have someone who has responded a very long email. I think we're going to get Jack to read the response, correct? Well, I might have to substitute. I mean, I can't really fill Jack's shoes, but I have I have the email here. All right, so Joe, the front, what's the name of your band, Joe? Oh, it's called Big Ups. All right, so he's a front man. I'm sure you can do a good read job. Joe's going to read the response to your question on how to get your kids to eat stuff from Geek
+
+[42:23] Goddess. Go, Joe. Dear Dave and Nastasia, the Hammer. I have all kinds of food issues myself, and I was thinking of that family in Germany whose kids have lost their minds and will only eat
+
+[42:35] pasta, has said father tried Sharimi? You know that delightful crab, like seafood product that serious chefs loves to hate? Well, my brother, master of picky eaters, I, of course, would eat anything anyway. My mother or my brother was getting desperate and found the stuff and brought it home. He got to it before she even had a chance to feed it to him. And because and became the default option
+
+[43:02] for, and I won't eat anything day. So have you tried the Seremi? Will your kids eat the serimi? What's the rimi? It's that crab, yeah. It's what? Imitation crab product? Okay, how do you spell it? S-U-R-I-M-I? And it really, it's the stuff that they put in fake California rolls and whatnot. I mean it is. Oh, like crabstick type shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry. That's all right. That's all right. I agree. Look, it is, it is like a crazy, like, processed food stuff, and then, and it's like, you know, uh, they evaluate various fish products for their ability to be pressed into
+
+[43:39] serebi because it's all about you bleach out any sort of natural flavor. It has, and then you turn them into kind of uniform sticklets. Uh, but uh, would your kids, uh, would your kids like that maybe? That was that was her 1st name. They might not dig the texture. But we can we can try it. we can try it. She also she also suggested string cheese. String cheese. String cheese with string cheese we already do. Yeah, but and then insulted the quality of pizza that you're able to obtain in Germany. I believe she insulted the quality of pizza. Is that true, Joe? Yes, she definitely did. Yeah, in fact, condolences. Yes, condolences to you for your like, what was the next one? Then there's a quinoa pasta? Oh, yeah, she said that your kids might not like the quinoa because of the taste of the quinoa. That's kind of a bit worthy for our family. Yeah. She also recommends corn-based pasta, right? Um, I'm just kind of scanning through here. Well, she says that there's, uh, that it does contain corn, yeah, or
+
+[44:34] something I would try. Yeah, contains corn. I had corn-based pasta. It is not pasta, but it tastes okay, actually. It's like rice pasta is horrible. Corn pasta is, like I say, it's not pasta, but it's it's okay. But yeah, you're trying to get away from the kind of boiled starch in general, right? Like not just, you don't want to just switch the boiled starch, right? In which case, I could just, you know, make you make soba or something like that, which I've been working. working on the soap. I dont know if I mentioned that on the air, but I've been working on a soba problem. But yeah, hopefully you're trying to switch to it. She had another kind of a loonier thing towards the end, didn't she? Uh, yes. Um, well, there's something about kangaroo on here. Oh, yeah, she's been cooking kangaroo meat. Maybe maybe your kids can eat some joey. She's like, I don't know, this is an incredible email, by the way. It is several pages. I think we should just put that email. We're going to put that. Can we put that email, Joe, up just as a response on the heritage radio site as a response? Yeah, I have to check what the higher ups, but I don't see why not. It's long, and anyway, you can read her entire response. You can read her entire response there. I'm not sure if your kids are having trouble eating other things. I'm not sure kangaroo is going to be the... Hey, kids. Remember that cute animal that you like? Here it is. Eat it. You know what I mean? I don't know. Even my kids, who will eat almost nothing but will try weird stuff and don't mind like dead animals. I think they might pause with a kangaroo. Yeah, I think we haven't really got to the link between furry things and what's on the plate yet. Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Well, I tend to reinforce it. I tend to reinforce it with my kids. I'm like, hey, eat your hamburger. cow died for that. And they're like, and then it comes and bites me on the butt because they're like, daddy, did a cow die for my hamburger? Yes, a cow dive for hammer. Like, does a cat, does any animal have to die for the pasta? No, no animal has to die for the pasta? So yeah, yeah, you have to keep on going on. It's like once you make a statement like that, you have to live with it for the rest of your life. know what I mean? Or at least for the first, you know, 5 years, whatever. anyway. So we're going to try and post this on the web. And we hope that helps. And thanks for the tablet press info. All right. I got one more that I'm gonna handle. Rob's 2nd question on my way out. He says, also, how do you make shelf stable, maraschino style, or bourbon cherries? All the recipes I call for refrigerator storage for a period of weeks, and I want to keep them in at cellar temperatures for up to a year. Rob Trey Pass. Okay. First of all, Toby Cicchini, the bartender, like better known as the bartender who kind of, you know, made the
+
+[47:14] Cosmo the drink. Um, also writes for the New York Times. Nice gent. He has been making cherries for many, many a
+
+[47:23] year. And his recommendations are that you, 1st of all, you need a high proof liquor. If you wanted to last a long time, you got to use a high-proof liquor. But 2nd of all, it's the type of cherry you use. He tried various different types of cherry. He happens to have, I think Morello's, I'm not sure, some type of sour cherry in his, in his garden, and those are the ones that he uses or he sources. He says he's tried to do his cherries with sweet cherries and that they're
+
+[47:49] insipid, useless things. I will tell you this. Back before I was allergic to cherries when I could test these things. I had a cherry once that was 50 or 60 years old that had been stored
+
+[48:01] in, like almost straight, like super high proof alcohol that my stepfather's grandfather kept in the basement in Connecticut and they were put up in the in the 20s and I was eating them in the in the
+
+[48:17] 90s, 80s or 90s. And they were still good that number of years later, and the secret, I think, is the high proof ethanol. Now, if you want to use a little bit of technology to make sure that you're going to be okay, his secret was
+
+[48:31] not don't remove the, I mean, whatever. old Italian wives tale, but don't remove the stem. If you move the stem, it goes mushy, it turns to crap. You got to leave the stemming. That the secret. That's what they used to say. Now with that accent though, because they're from Boston, but I can't do a Boston accent. Anyways, but you might want to try, if you do want to remove this stem or whatever, you might, and the issue with it is, I don't know how long you need to soak it
+
+[48:53] because it's very hard to get things to permeate the cell walls. I mean, the skin of things like cherries, but you might try a soak in
+
+[49:04] novo shape, pectin methylesterase, and a little bit of calcium. Um, That enzyme along with calcium will firm up the fruit immensely. And I've used that enzyme to make, for instance, raspberries that you could boil without them breaking. So it really does firm up cell walls quite a bit. And it's not readily available, but, you know, it is available. It's called Novo Shape is the brand name from Novozymes, and it's a pectin methyl esterase. Now, so I don't know how long it would take to soak through a cherry. We're going to run some tests ourselves at the bar. Hopefully if we can get around to it. But it definitely works on other things. Then high proof ethanol, and you might want to dope a tiny bit of calcium into that high proof ethanol if you can. It's not going to be very soluble because calcium will help also cross-length the pectin and keep those suckers nice
+
+[49:57] and, you know, not have them break down and turn to mush. Good luck with it. Cooking issues.
+
+[50:09] Vicious, fish. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[50:21] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization to donate and become a member and visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Vicious, fish, vodka.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 12, 1245, here on the Heritage Radio Network, in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, joined with Joe and Jack in the
+
+[0:48] engineering room, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, as always, sitting next to me. How you doing, guys? Good. Good. Yeah. Yeah. everyone good? Uh, good. So I'm glad I got to do today's show because right after we have our weekly Roberta's
+
+[1:01] lunch, which Nastasia and I always enjoy, thanks to the radio station. They give us the free lunch. That's what we work for here, people, by the way. In case you were wondering what the reward for the show is. It's free lunch. But after that, I'm going to the airport and going to Columbia, my favorite South American country. Of course, it's the only South American country I've gone to, but it is... Well, yeah, the Panamanians think Panama is South America, whereas because it's part of this skinny, skinny, skinny part, which I consider to be Central America. I call Central American, but that kind of pisses them off because they consider themselves South American. I was like, if it's not Central America, then why do we, you know, why is the canal there? Because it's the skinny part. In fact, it's the skinniest part. The skinniest part, right or wrong. Right. Yeah? Yeah. Anyway. So, uh, Panama being my favorite Central American country I've ever
+
+[1:48] visited, and uh, Colombia being my favorite South America, but actually, not just the only, I do actually like Colombia quite a bit. Going to Bogota. and the great news is, I'm going to look up your Lucuma stuff, by the way, even though they don't have it there, they have close relatives I can play with. And I get to visit a coffee plantation in Armenia, which
+
+[2:06] is, you know, the heart of Colombian coffee growing thing. So I'm going to, hopefully if it's there right now, pick some coffee, do some fun stuff and report back next week with news of coffee. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Call in your question is two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Got some questions from last week that I didn't do. Uh, this one in from uh, Señor Trepaz. I answered his question last week about Carpano Vermouth, but don't believe I answered his question about cherries. I'm interested in making shelf stable maraschino or bourbon style or
+
+[2:38] maraschino or bourbon style cherries. All the recipes I found call refrigerated storage for a period of weeks. I want to keep them at cellar temperatures for up to a year. Okay, well, look. So the actual things that you buy in the store as maraschino cherries, what they do with those things is they bleach the color and flavor out of them and make them stable in a solution of kind of like sulfur dioxide, which is a bleacher and a preservative and an antifungal, I
+
+[3:05] think. And calcium chloride. Calcium chloride is what gives maraschino cherries that hardness, right? Because what the calcium is doing. calcium colard is actually horrible because it tastes bad. But calcium chloride. What it does is the calcium helps to cross-link the pectin inside of the cherry and cause the
+
+[3:24] flesh of the cherry to not break down over time, right? So that's why the calcium is there. Then they put it in food coloring and syrup over length of time to reinfuse it with sugar because it doesn't really have any much sugar left or flavor or anything like that. And that's not the, that's not the way to do it. That's horse that's horse hockey. Toby Cucchini, the bartender, famous for the Cosmo. I think I did mention him last week in regard to cherries, but I gave a very abbreviated share. If I talked about cherries at all, it was super abbreviated, and I apologize. So he makes his own, but I don't have his recipe. I was able to get in touch with him and get his recipe, but you want to look up, the person to look up on this on the
+
+[3:59] internet is Darcy O'Neill from The Art of the Drink, who also did fix the pump state, incredibly influential book on kind of bringing back stuff from the soda fountain
+
+[4:10] days, from the soda jerk days. And so, okay, so I'm going to compile all of these things. First of all, some of the patents online and maraschino cherries in the store are made with sweet cherries. Old style wheelchair, like cocktail cherries, are brandied sour cherries and that's what I'm told. And Toby tells me that he's tested sweet cherries and sour cherries, i.e. or sour end or bitter cherries, like, you know, um, you know,
+
+[4:35] morellos and all those things, and says that the sweet ones are horrible and insipid, and the sour ones are the ones you want. And that's actually borne out. If you get the Italian preserved cherries. They're the smaller kind, like, you know, the ones that we get in the blue ceramic jar. His name escapes me. But they're smaller and you know, not the sweet style. Now, if you want a good free guide to old cherry varieties,
+
+[4:58] i.e. cherry varieties prior to about 1920, look up cherries of New York. You can get a PDF version online for free. It's like from the teens or 20s, and it's got full color pictures of all the cherry varieties that were grown in New York at that time, which is also a wide range of all the cherry varieties that
+
+[5:14] existed. Not all of them by a long shot, but ones that are available here in New York, from the Geneva Agricultural Experiment Station. And I have actually have the whole collection in hard copy. Now, listen, here's what I'm going to say. I'm violently allergic to cherries. I can't eat them, haven't been able to eat them since I was 30 or 31. So bear that in mind. Don't like, you know, like anything here, I can't actually test it for you because it'll kill me. Okay. Now, the trick with there's 2 tricks. One, you want to keep the cherries firm and two, you want to, you know, gradually preserve the cherries so that they don't rot. So, typically, there's 2 things we add to cherries to preserve them sugar, to increase the sugar content so that we're storing them high sugar so that they don't go
+
+[5:52] bad. And two, uh, we're adding an acid, which is an antifungal and the thing, uh, it's basically a preserved antibacterial antifungal thing in the syrup. And three, you're going to add sugar, alcohol, whatever. I forget, one, two, three, four, five, whatever. Like sugar, alcohol, sugar, alcohol, acid and calcium. You're going to add to this, but you have to do it carefully because you have to preserve the osmotic balance of the cherry so
+
+[6:19] that they don't shrivel and or rupture. I'm going to come back and give you what the answers to that is, but I have a
+
+[6:24] caller on the air. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dev, big fan. I had a question for you today about the shellfish protein. So, uh, trying to make uh, top mun, uh, sort of fish paste, a little bit of
+
+[6:37] eggs, some curry, fried, delicious Thai street food, uh, and was thinking of trying it
+
+[6:43] with um, shrimp paste. In fact, have was thinking of frying it around some sugar cane. Problem is when you grind up shrimp, shrimp paste, pasta, a little egg falls apart when you throw it new out. And I was curious, you know, I realized, well, maybe that's why crab cakes are much harder to keep together than burgers, but I was hoping you could shed a little light on what's going
+
+[7:02] on, and if there's a relatively simple fix. Huh. Well, um, I wouldn't have expected that. But, I mean, obviously, the easiest fix, I mean, aside from actually figuring out what's going on in the recipe
+
+[7:15] formulation is just to add a little bit of transglutaminase to it. like Activa RM and it would bind it, you know, lickety split. Is there enough salt in there for the proteins to bind together? Yep, yep. Uh, there's, uh, I had a pinch of salt, everything. I haven't didn't add a crazy amount, but
+
+[7:35] shrimp has some natural salt in it, does it not? Yeah, should. And you process it long enough for it to get a good, what looked like a good bind in the mix before you fried it? Yeah. It's very odd. But I know for a fact that shrimp with a little bit of
+
+[7:51] translutaminace added to it. If, uh, you know, if you'd have to poach it probably 1st in a little uh, in a little water stock to set the outside, but they won't break ever.
+
+[8:01] Never. They will not break. Um, I mean, that's what Wiley, you know, does to make his shrimp noodles. And those things, I've fried them and they fry fine. So I'm assuming that egg also containing protein wouldn't interfere with the bind with the, uh, with the, uh, I'm just so surprised. Although when you think about it, like I always, when I'm doing things, I never do straight shrimp, like in my sausages and poaching mixtures for like fish canals. It's always fish, scallops, and shrimp. So maybe there is something strange about shrimp. But, I mean, do you have access? I mean, you can, for modernest pantry, you can buy a fairly small amount of transgutaminates and it's fairly easy to use. Just sprinkle a little bit in. Don't go. I wouldn't, the maximum you can add is one% by weight, but you don't need nearly one% by
+
+[8:48] weight, just to keep it together. In fact, that might make it too firm. All right. I will, uh, I'll try it. But so there's, I'm curious, though, you know, why do crab cakes fall apart more easily
+
+[8:59] than a burger, something like that? Is there something about seafood proteins that make them bind less than meat? Yeah, well, crab cakes. Remember, crab cake is being formed from meat, at least when I make
+
+[9:12] them that's already been cooked once. So there's not like a lot of the protein's already coagulated in it. And so the, and especially kind of the lump style crab meat that you're using, the bigger, bigger
+
+[9:22] chunks aren't going to want to bind together. So, you know, in a native, in a native, uncooked protein, it hasn't been coagulated yet. You know, there's a lot of soluble, you know, liquid bound proteins, you add salt, more of those things come out and they kind of form a gluey, sticky
+
+[9:39] matrix, and then when the heat sets, you know, sets them, it sets into kind of a solid matrix, like a
+
+[9:44] sausage. how it works. But whereas like, something like crab meat, you know, it's already been set, so you can't, you can't do it. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, again, you can take crab meat and bind it with translataminates and get it to stick together, or you could add some uncooked protein, like fish protein to it to help bind it if you don't want to add other
+
+[10:02] extenders. But the crab meat itself is never going to bind together as well just because it's cooked. Okay. Thanks for yep. try it out. Let you know. Cool. Thanks. All right, so back to the cherries for a second. So here's what you want to do. If you go to Darcy O'Neill's website, the art of the drink, which 1st of all, highly recommend that you do. You should go to his website. I don't know, spy his, you know, acid phosphate soda, support the man, except, you know, he's doing very good work for all of us in the world of cocktail and technologies. And he's an actual scientist. I don't know if he still does science for a living or whether he just does cocktail stuff for a living. Anyways, what you want to do is figure out about how much sugar in is in your
+
+[10:39] cherry. And I don't really, I don't know that I trust his numbers 100% because I've read other numbers, but he's basically saying that the
+
+[10:46] bricks, equivalent bricks, which is weight of sugar in water for a cherry, is somewhere on
+
+[10:52] the order of 5 or 6 to 16 bricks.
+
+[10:56] I've heard as much up to like, you know, up to
+
+[10:59] 20, 22 bricks percent sugar on one of the sweeter cherries. So you're going to want to start with a sugar syrup, only slightly more sugary than that. So one-to-one simple syrup is going to be too much to start with, start lower and work your way up. add acid. And Darcy says that Malik and citric are the 2 components that are mainly the acids in there, so you're going to want to add probably more
+
+[11:20] Malik than citric, although that's also what kind of limes taste like, so you're going to want to add Malik and citric acid. You're going to want to add sugar, right? And then you gradually increase the sugar content of the syrup. Now, he says to make sure there's enough syrup in there, such that the sugar content doesn't decrease too much because of the water that goes in, but I would say go a little bit stronger, add a little bit as you go, get a strong syrup. And then after it's preserved in syrup, start doping in alcohol, like super
+
+[11:46] high-proof ethanol until it gets to where you want it, and then you should be good for a
+
+[11:51] year. But please go read Darcy O'Neill's posts on
+
+[11:55] preserved cherries. Now, we have a caller. Oh, also, anyway, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, I just made about £20 of homemade sausage. Nice. And yeah, and I cooked it the way I usually cook sausage and it, uh, I did like a link of each batch. I mean, I did like 4 different ones and they all turned out really mealy. And I did a little research and it says it's just from the fat breaking, from taking it, making it too hot. Right. And I'm wondering why, why, you know, I, I can do it, you know, the lower tent next time, but I'm wondering why normal sausages don't, uh, break like that because, the way, the way I normally cook it is, is, you know, uh, uh, brown it on one side in a pan and then flip it and put a little water in the pan and cover
+
+[12:43] it. And then after about 10 minutes, I take it off and lift and then cook it until it's kind of brown a little more. Yeah, no, what they're talking about with high temperature isn't on the cook side. They're talking about high temperature on the make side. Oh okay. So, like, typically, I mean, what kind of sausage was it again? Well, I, I, I did some, uh, some Thai chicken with some, uh, ground up chicken thighs and
+
+[13:06] a little, uh, fat back in there and then put Thai chilies and Thai basil.
+
+[13:11] I did a turkey with uh, dried cherries. A lot of stuff all out of the charcuterie book. Right. So, yeah, but so not emulsified though. regular like, regular sausage mixers, not like made into a batter emulsified, right? I mean, fat. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, I think, are you partial? Are you parfreezing the meat and the fat before you grind it? Um, I try to. I don't have a great grinder, though. And so it was kind of just making more of a pace than actual stuff. But half of the, half of the sausages I made. I just bought from our local butcher shop, they had, they make their own sausages and they sold me a pre-ground blend of, you know, pork
+
+[13:55] bell or pork shoulder and pork fat, you know, like 35% fat.
+
+[13:59] They just sold it to me pre-ground. So I wouldn't think that that would break as well. Huh, and that one's the one that went mealy, the one that they did pre-ground for you? All of them did. The ones I ground myself and the ones that they had pre-ground. I mean, that's, look, look, the cooking technique that you talk about, the, is, you know, the old school one, pre-poach, and
+
+[14:20] then, and then brown off, right? That's what you said you do. That's what I typically do if I don't have a circulator. I mean, that's good technique. So that's not that's not doing it. So it's got to be... I mean, typically when you're looking at sausage manufacturer, there's, you know, the main things are, do you have a high enough fat content, which you do? You asked, you got it, right? Do you have a high enough salt content to get a good bind going? Because that'll also mean it won't bind together well if you don't have a high enough salt content because the salt is what's allowing the proteins to kind of come out and form that
+
+[14:49] that bind in a sausage mix, right? So was it bound right? If it's not bound right, it's going to be more like, you know, compressed hamburger meat, right? Three was the temperature of the fat and whatnot cold enough when it was ground, so you're not getting weird smearing effects and then you'll get a lot of, you know, if the fat tissue is disrupted and melted instead of, you know, ground cleanly, then you'll bleed the fat out and you'll be left with dry and mealiness.
+
+[15:15] So the temperature of the of the meat is important and, you know, proper trim is important when you grind it. And thirdly, the temperature is vitally important in emulsified sausages because you're making an emulsion and the emotional break if it gets too hot. And really those, uh, those are the main factors that I always, I mean, not that I'm a huge expert in it, but those are the main factors that I always look for
+
+[15:37] in troubleshooting a sausage problem to see what's gone wrong. But from what you've told me, I can't really figure out what, you know, I can't really figure out which one of those kind
+
+[15:47] of like main precepts of sausage making were violated, especially because you say you've done it before without problem, right? Yeah, and I mean, that's I, you know, when I cook regular commercial sausage, they never break the way I cook them.
+
+[16:00] So I was wondering if they added something to it. And, uh, you know, to keep it from doing that or if it's just that I messed up somehow this time. I mean, you can add things to sausage to keep them from breaking, but you shouldn't have to. Do you know what I mean? So like anything that you add to a commercial sausage. Uh, anything that's added to to things to stabilize them are there to, just in case somebody happens to abuse them, like
+
+[16:22] carraginen or things like that. But they shouldn't ever be necessary to, uh, to produce a good sausage. I mean, the only things necessary or high fat content, proper temperature regulation during manufacture and proper salt content. And of course, proper fat type. If you add a fat that's been rendered, that's going to be horrible. If the fat's already been rendered once, you know, it's never going to come back to its native
+
+[16:47] form, and then the fat won't hold in properly, all the fat will bleed out and it's going to be a huge nightmare, you know? I mean, like, you weren't using, like, you were using, you said fat back. Yeah, if I got fat back from the local butcher shop and chopped it up and put it in the freezer. But I was using a new, I mean, it's actually a vintage grinder. I got from my dad. It's a, uh, it's just a rival sausage grinder. But it seemed like it was really maybe grinding it too much where the fat wasn't making coming out in little chunks more than when it was coming out in almost a pace. So I'm thinking I might have ground the fat too much. Yeah, if the fat was, like, came out like a, I mean, again, like, it's hard to know, like, if it comes out as a
+
+[17:30] paste and you're breaking it up too much, then perhaps, you know, you would need to treat it then more like an emulsified sausage. If that breaks and those that weeps out, right? Then, uh, you know, it's not going to, so, you know, anytime you have fat. Fat isn't, you know, obviously fat's not just fat. Fat is mixture of fat and connected tissue and a bunch of other things.
+
+[17:53] And so when it's native, it'll hold itself kind of in place properly and when it's been melted out, then it's never going to hold itself right, which is why you want to make, which is why they don't want the fat to get smeared when they're
+
+[18:06] grinding when you're grinding for sausage. But maybe the blade isn't sharp on the on the grinder, you might sharpen the blade and look at it, just making sure you're getting
+
+[18:15] good contact. It should grind clearly and shouldn't come out warm at all or like a paste. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's the problem. It's something from back in the 70s and, you know, it probably hasn't been sharpened for 30 years, so. I mean, those should work. Like the old Porkurt style or rival. They're all the same with the, they look like they, they look like the KitchenAid, but the barrel, it looks like it's been pulled out in Photoshop, right? one of those guys? Yeah, yeah. And they're like, you know, they're like, uh, like shiny tinplate cast iron, those guys. They should work. Um, you know, it's just maybe the blade wasn't sharp. You should also put the grinder in the freezer as well. So the grinder's cold. Uh, but it sounds like maybe that's what, what, what happened is that you may be, uh, you know,
+
+[19:04] something went wrong with the fat back and, uh, it just didn't, it didn't grind right, paste it
+
+[19:10] out and then, uh, and then leaked on you when you cooked it. So there's no salvaging it. I took some, you know, some leftover and made burger type, you know, uncased and fried them up and those seem to taste all right. Yeah, it's up out of the case. Yeah, yeah, you could do that. Or, you know, I mean, the real problem
+
+[19:30] is, is that if you had super accurate temperature control, you might be able to cook them at like a straight, like a 140 and then like
+
+[19:38] let do a quick sear off on the outside without melting it out too much. But, I know, I don't know. I'd have to see because I don't really know at those temperatures, you know, some of the pig fat will remain semi, not super liquid, it'll all liquefy, but not like super
+
+[19:52] liquid, and you might get it to not kind of run everywhere and go crazy. But, yeah, I think maybe breaking it up might be breaking it up and making patties out of it might be the way to go. All right, thanks for the help, buddy. Hey, thanks. And let me know next time you try it, whether fixing that salt it. All right, cool. All right, cool. You too. All right, so listen, Jack, why don't we go to our or Joe? don't know who's there right now. Why don't we go to our 1st commercial break with cooking issues? Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
+
+[20:30] oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
+
+[20:43] oh, Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
+
+[20:55] oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I don't seem that far away at all. I don't need to open a home, and put it back to, take it home. Brother Joe, where'd you go, lost your back, got the
+
+[21:22] island? The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the
+
+[21:34] HeritageRadioNetwork.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[21:43] restaurant tours, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Hello. And so that, uh, the band, uh, Jack tells me that is fellow radio show host Damon Bolty's band called
+
+[22:09] Brothers, because Damon Bolty has a twin brother, who apparently is also in the band. Although it'd be funny is if he had a band called Brothers and his twin brother wasn't in the band. That'd be more funny, I think. I think maybe he should do that. They should have some sort of rift. But you should go definitely go check them out and see them if you're really into seeing 9 feet tall,
+
+[22:26] skinny bartenders, play music, right? He is kind of really tall man. He's like, as tall as Tristan. He's a tall man. How tall would you say Damon is? He's taller than me. I mean, he's got to be a good 6 three. Yeah, yeah. How does he fit into the chairs here in the studio? He does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's never been on my show. He should be. I've never been on his show. You know why? He hates me. No, he does. I know, I know he doesn't hate me at all. I just kidding. He a good man. You know who I said who I was talking to who said that they would like to be on the show is Tosi. Yeah, she Tosi? Yeah, wouldn't that be cool? would love that. Let's make that happen. Yeah, we'll do that. And back to Damon for a second. Do you know he makes an excellent old-fashioned. Were you aware of that fact? No, well, I assumed as much, but excellent, excellent. What's so special about his old fashion? They're very delicious. He made, what was the old-fashioning made 1st at the museum event? I don't remember. But it was damn good. Yeah. It was like, he was like, I'm going, he was like, he doesn't talk like this. He's like, I'm going to do something really simple. Someone's going to make an old fashioned. It going to be delicious crap on you guys. He doesn't talk at all like that. He's not like that. But listen, speaking of old-fashioned and cocktails and food, you need to come to heritageradionetwork.org's members only party, September ninth between 5 and 8 p.m. at Roberta's, Roberta's, Roberta's Pizza, 261 More Street in Brooklyn, New York.
+
+[23:42] There will be food from Gramercy Tavern. Back 40 West, Del Posto. Momo Sushi, Inside Park, Parish Hall, Heritage
+
+[23:51] Foods USA, Catered by Roberta's. Seated table, sex will be cheesemongers, inheritage meat stock. Cocktails by none other meat, Dave Arnold. El Buco, Mezcal, Galiano, absolute vodka, Plymogen, and Pierre Jouet Champagne,
+
+[24:05] beer by greatbrewers.com. Greenport Harbor Brewing, and Kane Vineyard and Winery. Buy your tickets for $150. What does a VIP ticket get you, brother? But wait, before we get there? If you enter cooking issues HRN at the checkout, we'll give you $25 off. Holy crap. $25 off. There it is. And there's going to be plenty of food and drink here, right? Oh yeah. I mean, like a lot, right? Plenty. Yeah, the VIP, you get a little private tour of the chocolate factory in the neighborhood. There'll be some special cocktails that won't be available at the party just for the VIP and a whole bunch of other surprises. And by that, what we mean is special means Nastasia won't scout at you when she gives it to you. That's right. Shell smile at you. Yeah, yeah. And then you can have both experiences. You can come during the VIP section and get the smile and then come back during the regular section and get
+
+[24:52] scaled at so you can get the double. might be a private concert from Joe and his band big ups, too, for the VIPs. I'm not sure. not confirmed. Not confirmed but possible? Possible. Possible? And there'll be raffle tickets there for $25. The VIP, I think I mentioned, is $250. Now listen, listen. I don't know whether you notice whether you listen, but I believe that every time we say heritageradio.org. And what that means is that we are a nonprofit here at Heritage Radio, which means we need some money to keep this going. We need to make sure that we have people in the engineering booth making this stuff happen. This stuff ain't free people. Jack, am I right about this? It's not free. I wish it was free. It's not free. And, you know, we have, you know, sponsors. But listen, the sponsors we take are sponsors that we believe in that, and, you know, it's not, we're not a commercial, we're not a commercial thing here where anyone can come and just, you know, plunk down
+
+[25:41] money. It's just not the way it operates. This is like the, we operate more like PBS. We take kind of good people's money when they want to give it to us, and then we rely on you guys for the rest. Is this true or is this false? You're nailing it. Yeah. Okay, so listen, please sign up, come to the party. Uh, I'll try to get Nastasia to even smile at the non-VIPs, but you know, no, no, uh, no guarantees. You know, if somebody buys a ticket now, Joe might be able to get lunch today. Oh man. I'm just kidding. Joe gets lunch. Yeah, but it's going to be a good lunch if he gets a ticket now. By the ticket, it'd be a good lunch. Yeah, okay. Now, yeah, otherwise, you like, you feed them out of what, the scrap spins here at Roberta's? Like when people leave a slice of pizza, like that's what you guys get? Yeah, exactly. Scraps. Snacky tunes scraps. That what we eat. Yeah, you're going to help these guys or what, people? Please. All right. Speaking of, uh, Joel writes in, uh, Joel Gargano writes in with a big shout out to Joe and
+
+[26:38] big ups, effing awesome is what he said. He is actually interested in starting another band with you, uh, and uh, doing the old mosh pit. You'll bring
+
+[26:49] in, bringing mosh pits back. Joe, do they still have mosh pits nowadays? Yes, they do. There. We have some mosh pits, but I think you're supposed to be in this band too, Dave. Oh, really? I think he wants he wants you in it too. All right. I mean, do they still, are mosh pits, like, like what level of mosh pit are they now? Do they are the frat boys still there actually trying to knock people over or is it more like it used to be? Well, it depends on, you know, where you're where you're performing, but you know, sometimes you get some people that are just, you know, going to kick the crap out of me and get kind of scared. Yeah, but there's kick the cool guy. Yeah, there's kick the crap out of, and then there's kick the crap out of. know what I mean? Right. There's like the fun get the crap kicked out of you. Yeah, like if you take a... Yeah, if you take like a Doc Martin to the face because someone's flying over your head, like that's all in good fun. great. But if there's like some guy who's just like, you know, red in the face and steam coming out of his ears, he just looks at you and just stares you down and he's, you know, this guy's just coming after you.
+
+[27:39] Yeah, D-bags, everyone for everyone. Exactly. And then I just go hide in the bathroom. Yeah, that's that's weak. That's weeks us. Listen, do they still do crowd surfing in the mosh pits these days? Oh, definitely. It's good to see something's haven't changed. I know, exactly. Yeah. All right. So now, another question from Joel. What's the best way to get coffee flavor into beer, we want to use a local roaster's beans and not buy a pre-made extract. My brother just began operations as a brewer here in Connecticut, Thimble Island Brewing. I'd like to try their product. Maybe someone could send us some Thimble Island brewing product, right? Try it. Try it. It's only in Connecticut, very close to us. And we were doing a number of tests to see the best way to infuse coffee into a stout and hold off the overly bitter slash acidic flavors. I'm thinking cold extraction is best suited. You're correct. I went through the infusion post on the cooking issues blog and got some good ideas, yet nothing is proven to be tasty on its own. Here's what I did for testing before I attempt to get the coffee flavor into beer. I made an extract in room temperature water at
+
+[28:35] 100 to one. I can't really understand this thing, but 250 grams of coarse ground coffee, medium roast,
+
+[28:43] and did like 3 minute, one minute infusions in the ISI whipper with
+
+[28:48] charges and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, your numbers here are way too not long. Way too not long. What's the right word for that? Way too short. Short is the word I'm looking for. Nastasia actually helped me with that. She gave me this look and I was like, 0 yeah, short. But when people are doing cold brew in the ISI, they're doing it usually for a much, much longer period of time. When I do it, I do it for 2 minutes, 3 minutes because I'm using alcohol and not water, right? So you could actually do a straight infusion into alcohol or you could take much longer and infuse it into water. And you had this question right here. Like, should I change the liquid medium? Yes. Should we toss the whole beans into the fermenter and hope for the best? No, I would not do that. What I would do is, look, your beers, I don't know what your beers are coming in at, but
+
+[29:37] let's say they're coming in at like five, five, 6% alcohol somewhere in there, 7%,
+
+[29:42] eight, whatever. I'm usually extracting into 20% alcohol, sorry, 40% alcohol. So my infusions with coffee are very strong and they happen very
+
+[29:51] quickly, even at room temperature under an ISI infusion regime. I know people that have done cold infusion of coffee into water and liquor in
+
+[30:00] huge by my standards, 5 gallon containers, like corny kegs, but they're letting it sit a lot longer. With your low alcohol percentage, you are going to have to go a lot longer. Now, I mean, you give it a shot. But my problem with it, if you make super concentrated extracts is they tend to go, they tend to go bitter. If you're allowed to use an alcohol-based extract, then you could do an alcohol-based coffee extract and dope it in afterwards, right? Just use ISI with high proof. And that's going to be, because if you're actually going to do this in a commercial fashion, you're going to have a difficult time,
+
+[30:34] you know, infusing the entire amount of each batch of coffee that you make.
+
+[30:39] Now, um, You also say I grabbed a Starbucks via packet, which is their, like, supposedly high grade version
+
+[30:46] of uh, of, uh, you know, freeze dried coffee. I never tried it, and ports them into a Guinness. tasted pretty good. Is that a better route? I know Wiley uses that stuff in sauces and whatnot. I don't know whether he does not, actually. talked to him about it. interesting. If so, how can I make it myself? That's just freeze dried coffee. Then you ask lastly, what about this guy? And, you know, obviously the readers can't, viewers can't, whatever they are, can't see it, but filter the beer through a bunch of beans before kegging or bottling, and you post a link to the Randall.
+
+[31:14] So what a Randall is, is a Randall in beer parlance is a modified water filter that was developed by the
+
+[31:23] dogfishhead brewery people to do post-infusion. They developed it for hops. And what you're doing is running the beer out of the keg through a container full of hops that infuses on its way out to the tap. Now, the issue with it. And people have done a lot of coffee in it to add coffee flavors to it. You have to use whole beans with something like that because ground beans are
+
+[31:47] going to cause wicked foaming, wicked, wicked foaming. So you need to use whole beans in that. And I don't know how much beer you can filter through it and get the same taste, how long it needs to sit,
+
+[31:56] et cetera, et cetera. So I haven't running a test with it, but there's plenty of people doing it. There's lots of links out there on how to build a Randall with parts that, you know, you can buy in a regular hardware
+
+[32:07] store along with things you could buy at a homebrew shop. And what they all amount to is modifying water filters so that you can run
+
+[32:15] the run the beer through the water filter on the way out to the tap. Now, the dogfishhead guys realize that foaming is a big problem, because duh, foaming is
+
+[32:24] going to be a big problem when you do that. And so their new version, which is on their website, and you can see it, and they tell you the parts you need to build it, but I don't think they build it for you, is has the initial infusion chamber and then a secondary chamber with ice surrounding it to keep the temperature
+
+[32:38] down. That's an anti-anti-foam chamber. So that's an interesting thing. Go look at Randall, and it's named after Randall, the Randall, the enamel, eating, whatever, blah, blah, blah, because the 1st thing had so much hops in it when they put it through
+
+[32:51] it that they said it ate the enamel off of your teeth and those guys at dogfish head have to come up with crazy names for everything. They can't help themselves. They can't help it. Uh, so go look that up and uh, try making some extracts with higherproof ethanol or doing it a lot longer with water or you could do that a lot longer with water in 5 gallon
+
+[33:07] batches, like hours or maybe, you know, hours and hours or maybe overnight, uh, or do traditional grind and then
+
+[33:14] like, uh, Kyoto style cold, uh, cold brewing. Anyways, let's take one more commercial break and we'll come back with cooking issues.
+
+[33:33] Broke her heart today. Didn't know what to
+
+[33:41] say. She's out there and cry.
+
+[33:51] Broke my own heart today. My tears blocked from streaming. Don't scar her race.
+
+[34:07] Say
+
+[34:17] broken heart And I broke her. Hello, this is Mark Laden from Del Posto, and you're listening to Heritage radio. Hell, yeah. Yeah, Mark Ladner calling it out. What do you think there, Stad? Did you know that he... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he did a, he did a shout out for, uh, wait, I can do it again. Hello, this is Mark Ladder from Del Posto and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Thanks. There we go. Gladner. By the way, like, that's like, if you ever ask Nastasia a question, like, her, like, the only honest answer she can ever give
+
+[34:54] you. I wasn't listening. I wasn't listening Yeah, right? All right. So a question from before we missed from Andrew Marcus on gummy candies. Hey, gang. I've recently been trying to make gummy candies at home, but running into some issues, so I thought I'd just defer to you before spending more money on other ingredients, it might just lead to more dead ends. Ideally, I'd rather not use gelatin for my veggie friends and potentially not have to cook it so much to preserve the delicate flavors. Nothing specific yet, in other words, on the delicacy of the flavor is just a preference. After reading around, it looks like the only way to achieve the 1st half, i.e. vegetarian is with
+
+[35:27] cornstarch or pecked in, which both seem to require tons of sugar and require lots of heat, but maybe I'm way off. I was working with gelan, low acyl, and high acyl gelan previously, but haven't been able to get anything nearly chewy enough with good elasticity and sheer.
+
+[35:40] Do you have any advice? Usage rates for those hydrocollards would be awesome too. Oh, if I can make it even more complicated, is there any way to add alcohol to the
+
+[35:48] recipe or would that increase the liquid portion too much and make the gel too loose? Thanks for any help you can give, Andrew Marcus. Okay. You're not going to have any actual alcoholic candy that's
+
+[35:59] gummy because by the time you get the solids level high enough, you're not going to have much alcohol left in it at all.
+
+[36:06] You can make things that are hard, like rocks, really, jelly, gel, gel, gelled, uh, that have, bless you, that have
+
+[36:13] fairly high alcohol. The limit with most hydrocoloids and higher concentrations to get good gel strength is about 20% alcohol in the
+
+[36:20] fin finished thing. I've done with some hydrocoloids higher. Like I've done fluid Agar fluid gels at like 25, 28%, then gotten them to work, alcohol, especially if you have to add the alcohol later with
+
+[36:33] Agar because alcohol can't be boiled at Agar setting, you know, Agar, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, temperatures to, well,
+
+[36:39] brain's gone today. The temperatures are you required to get the agar functional, hydrate. There we go. You, um, the alcohol will boil off before those temperatures happen. So most things that are, so you can do like an fluid gel that's pretty high in alcohol using agar, or any one of those things, and you can set gels with them with a high enough, if you add a high enough, not too high in alcohol.
+
+[37:01] My brain is so fried today, crazy. Anyways. So, but you're not going to get something that's a gummy candy that has actual appreciable amounts of alcohol in it, although it can have the flavor, the base flavor of an alcohol just by adding it and boiling off all of the water and alcohol in it.
+
+[37:14] Okay. So that's that part of the question. Also, low isol and high isol gelan mixes, you're not going to be able to get, look, you can get very good gelatin replacement with high
+
+[37:25] asyl and low asyl gelan in the ratios that are normal for gelatin, but in the super high ratio that's in a gummy candy of gelatin in
+
+[37:34] there. It's not going to have the same texture there that gelatin will. So I don't think you're going to be barking up the right tree with that. I've looked into other hydrocolloid replacers to do gelatin replacement, and the one most people use seems to be Agar. Agar also, I mean, having done high percentage alcohol, sorry, high percentage, Agar, gummies before, there's not going to get the right amount. They're not going to get the right texture with that. You might be able to. I haven't looked it up. I wasn't able to check it out, but there are kappa carragin and locust being gum mixes, and you can actually use Agar and locust being gum, but it's not quite the same. But, uh, and go to CP Kelco and look up their gelatin replacers, or call
+
+[38:13] them, CP Kelco, and they might have a kappa carragin slash locust bean gum, and the kappa is providing the gelling, and the locust bean gum is getting it to act more
+
+[38:23] like, uh, more like gelatin and make it softer. They might have a mix that can be used in a high at a high enough ratio to allow it to do gummy
+
+[38:32] candies. But I don't know. And I doubt it's ever going to have the stretch and pull of a gummy bear. I mean, you might get something similar. Now, the real awesome one is, as you say, pectin, but you do have to cook the
+
+[38:43] crap out of pectin to get it to work. What you could do is cook the bulk of it and overcook it slightly and then add super concentrated fresh flavors back. And Nastasia and I did that years ago with we rotovapped strawberry, fresh strawberry juice down to
+
+[39:02] high brick syrup, overcooked, pectin, and sugar, and then mixed it in. We never achieved hard thing. We achieved like a toffee, but it was the most delicious toffee I've ever had in my life. I wish I had that right now. It was so delicious. It was just really hard for us to calculate exactly what the bricks was because what you're doing when you're boiling is taking it to a certain temperature, but what you're really shooting for is
+
+[39:23] a certain liquid content. And pectin requires high acidity and high solids content. And that's why you have to cook it. You don't want to cook it. You can't cook it quickly because if you cook it quickly, you're going to scorch the fruit at the bottom, which is the problem why everything has to be done slowly and more mellowly. But, you know, maybe you could get away with adding a little bit, you know, after the
+
+[39:43] fact, after it's been cooked up to temperature, as long as you get the ratios, right? So sorry, I couldn't be super helpful, but there you, there you have it.
+
+[39:51] Okay, and I'm going to have to rock through these or Jack's going to pull my microphone out because it's just the kind of guy he
+
+[39:57] is. Remember we don't have enough money to keep my microphone plugged in. I'm just kidding. They have another show coming on is actually what this story is. Okay, have a question in from uh, is this from Paul? In one of the cooking issues radio episodes, Dave mentioned that he uses a particular sharping
+
+[40:14] stone. It's proving impossible to find the name by going back through all the episodes, would it be possible to email me the name. I think it was 3 initials or an acronym or 3 initials. Well, better than that, here it is in the real life, DMT. I use duo sharp DMT, uh, Diamond, uh, whetstones. When you're buying a whetstone, none of the real hardcore knife people use this and they're going to say I'm a bad human being for using it, but when I actually sharpen, everyone's like, man, it's pretty
+
+[40:39] freaky shot. pretty freaky sharp. You want to get the largest stone you can possibly get because that's going to make sharpening large stones easy. The one I have, a lot. One of the reasons why a lot of knife aficionados hate it is because it's got an interrupted pattern in it. And that makes for easier clearing and less kind of gumming up with the abrasive as you're working, but like real, real hardcore people don't like it. I like it fine. What I like about this one is it stays flat forever, it's very thin, it's not very heavy. It's unbreakable, unwarpable, and doesn't need to be dressed. So I get the 2 the 10 inch duo sharp. I buy it in I buy it in fine. The one I get is fine slash extra fine, which is 25 micron grit on the fine
+
+[41:21] side and 9 micron grit on the other. I think I've also said before, and if you're a freaking psycho and you like super high,
+
+[41:29] like polishing stuff out, DMT now makes an 8 inch stone, unfortunately not
+
+[41:34] a 10 that is like a straight diamond with no interrupted holes that has a super extra fine 3 micron grit, which is like insanely small.
+
+[41:45] That's as small as most of the high-end Japanese stuff. Now it'll take it to a polish. But as I've said many times before, Japanese grits and American grits don't correlate with each other. The Japanese grit numbers being higher for the equivalent thing than an American grit number. And secondly, an actual grit number isn't necessarily going to indicate everything
+
+[42:04] that indicates a certain particle size, but not a spread and distribution of particle
+
+[42:08] sizes, nor how they are bound to the substrate. So there's a lot to be known. And what I really recommend you all do. If you're interested in abrases, is go to the Unified Abrasives
+
+[42:17] Manufacturer Association, UAMA.org, and go to their section called Abrasive Greens
+
+[42:25] 101, and they have a great little web thing in the jig on kind of what is actually going on, like what the grains look like, what the different materials are, why you would use different
+
+[42:34] materials and what that means. But if you just want the simple answer, go get a DMT, 10 inch duo sharp green slash red. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. And we got one last thing of a jiggy in from Chris who says, and he just calls you out. He just says, hey, nostas, he doesn't give a crap about the rest of us. does not care. Anyway. Yeah, right. Rumen and Pulsen just released their latest on Salumi. And in fact, I just got it. I just got the new Salumi book. Is it actually out yet or not? Do you know? Yeah, anyway, I have it. I have it, you know, because I got it. Anyway, Roman and Postin just released their latest on Salumi. I go into some fair detail on whole pig butchery, curing, et cetera. where it comes up a little short is on specifics for curing chambers. How much airflow do you need, mechanisms for controlling humidity, minimum practical sizes, et cetera? Do you guys have a good reference for someone trying to set up a small slash trial and
+
+[43:27] development scale chamber? I want to give some COPA and lard shot? Lardo, I guess, before committing to a larger setup for the shop? So is it going to have to live in an apartment until I can convince the boss that it's ready for prime time? Also, in what may be a long shot, the website for National Center for Home Food Preservation Publication seems to have been shut down. Any chance you or Dave has a copy of their curedmeats.pdf referenced in the November 15th, 2011 radio show, I think, or know a place to grab it. Okay, so I went on the national, I went on the national center for home curing food preservation, and I didn't
+
+[44:00] get to go back to listen to what I said, but most of their publications are back up. So I don't know if you had a temporary problem, whether it was temporarily broken and now it's back. But if it's still down, I'll look for the specific one that you need to find. Some of them are organized in a wonky way. Like you have to click next, next, next to get through it and you can't download it easily, but it seems to be there. Now, back to Roman Poulson. One of the great things I saw about it is they actually, very early in the book said something that I need people need to say more often. They said, when you're making salumi in America, do not try to make Italian salumi in America, make American salumi. I think that's a great, great thing. So for instance, Sam Edwards, our good friend and one of the benefactors of the heritage radio, he sells his hams as Suriano trying to piggyback on
+
+[44:47] Serrano style hands, which I think is a mistake. And I've told him this to his face. nothing he doesn't like already know that I think is a mistake because I think American hams are amazing,
+
+[44:57] delicious, and they're their own product. They shouldn't be compared to Spanish hams. They shouldn't be compared to Italian hams there, American products. And the same goes with, if you're making salumi here. Don't try to make an Italian product, make what make an American. mean, you can use Italian techniques, but you should be shooting. If you're trying to shoot to make somebody else's product, then all you're ever going to be is a runner-up to their product. If you try to make your own product, then you get to be the best at that and you can focus on what makes it better, what makes it worse, which isn't to say you don't respect and love the procedures,
+
+[45:29] techniques, and flavors that someone uses in a place like Italy. But I'll tell you what Fong told us, what's the Imperial T Court, right? As the name of his place does. We went out and visited. He's growing tea in California now, and I asked him, I was like, what do you want the tea to taste like? He said was probably the most profound thing he could say about this? He says, I want it to taste like California wants tea to taste. In other words, he wants to make tea that tastes like what tea should taste like when it's grown to the best of its abilities in California. Anyway. So I thought that was a good point that Roman and Polson brought up in that. But then let's go on to your actual question. If you want to see what real badass curing technology is
+
+[46:06] like before I get into your actual answers. See how long it takes me to get into an actual answer? Ridiculous. Nostasia shaking her head and giving me her. I hate you face. Okay. The Italian company, Travel Yini, which is, you know, spelled Travag
+
+[46:18] Lini, Travel Yini, right? are the world's greatest curing, drying, aging,
+
+[46:24] and like ham and salumi production equipment machine people in the world. They are the best. Bar nun. They are amazing. In fact, they're the company I always point at when I say that technology can be used for good in the production of food rather than just for making it
+
+[46:38] cheaper because these guys have developed curing rooms and aging rooms that are specifically designed to mimic what goes on, they originally built it around what goes on in Parma, like in a Parma
+
+[46:48] ham. So they get humidity, they get temperature, they cycle the humidity, and the temperature inside the place to mimic the day in, day, day, night, day in
+
+[46:58] out, changes, and seasonal changes in the ham to try. Because that's what's driving the aging in a long cured process like ham is not just the humidity and the temperature, but the shift in humidity and temperature from both season to season and through day night.
+
+[47:12] Okay, so look at their stuff if you want to see some real badassery. Okay, now, you're you're exactly correct. In the book, I looked and they all do have a, you know, rather, um, that's a paltry kind of amount of information on how to make a curing thing. Remember this. The smaller occurring chamber is, the less it's less stable it's going to be over time. People really, and they do mention this a lot, which is probably why they don't really go into it too much. People love their curing rooms. Going back to Sam Edwards, who I talked about before, he has a number of curing houses for his hams, and he says he can know which
+
+[47:47] one you could blindfold him, bring him into one, and he'll know which one it is based on
+
+[47:51] smell, because curing houses develop their own set of microflora and fauna, I guess, over time, and those are going to influence the flavor of each one of the products.
+
+[47:59] So it's incredibly important. So you're not going to get probably a stability of flavor in a small thing because it's too easy to push a small item one way or the
+
+[48:09] other. Same way it's hard to get a small fish tank to stay in good shape forever because if it goes a little bit
+
+[48:14] off, It goes way off, whereas larger fish tanks can be more self-corrective because there are larger systems. That said. If you want to, if you want to basically just, hey, say, hey, look, you don't want, you said airflow, I don't have a lot of data right now on airflow, but you need, you don't want too much airflow because it's going to cause case hardening on the
+
+[48:34] outside drying off, but, you know, some might be there. But for the best deal in control of a small setup, and by that, I mean, you're going to convert a fridge to an aging chamber, or you're going to convert, you know, I don't know, some sort of like a small box that I could not believe what a cheap deal it
+
+[48:48] is, and they're going to be back in stock, they say in September on September 20th. Go to Auburn Instruments. I've used one of their things. It's fine. It's okay. They're the cheapest people in the world, Auburn Instruments. And check this out for 97 bucks. They have a plug and play temperature and humidity controller that already has the sensor on it. So what you do is you just plug in a humidifier or a dehumidifier and a heating element into
+
+[49:13] it, and they handle up to 10 amps and put it in and just dial in what you want it to be, right? So there's 2 ways you can do this. If you know that your chamber is always going to have too low of a humidity, then you could attach a humidifier to it and jack the humidity into it. If you know that the humidity is always going to be too, it's going to be, sorry, that's going to be too humid, then you can add a dehumidifier to it. So another way you could do it, for instance, you can set the humidity of a chamber by doing something like, like if you go to Google saturated salt
+
+[49:43] solution, RH, standing for relative humidity. So sodium, uh, NACL, so, you know, sodium chloride, table salt, saturated solution, if you have a saturated solution that's sitting in your chamber, the chamber is
+
+[49:54] going to equilibrate the 75% humidity. So if you want lower than that, then you could put a dehumidifier on that
+
+[49:59] sucker, and you know that you're always going to need to dehumidify it slightly to get it down to 60 or 70% humidity when you're going.
+
+[50:06] If you know, if the other way to do it is if you know that you're always in a relatively non-human environment, you could put a fan, which moves a little bit of air out of
+
+[50:14] it to keep the community down and then put a humidifier attached to it that makes it humid as it goes, but, but, but, but. So that's the way I would go about doing it and it's cheap and it should work. We'll see you when you get back when I get back from Columbia. cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. can't get it straight. Fishes, vodka.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foods market.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to HeritageRadionetwork.org.
+
+[0:23] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host on Cooking YouTube, coming to you live on Tuesday, about five, 10 minutes late in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling your Questions Live 2,
+
+[0:37] 718-497-2128. 718-4972128 Join in the studio as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the booth. How you guys doing? Great. Yeah? You doing well? You guys just became members of Heritage Radio Network, so we're pretty happy with you. Who, Booker and Dax, LLC or cooking issues, the show. Yeah, you guys, Nastasia, and you. Oh, as humans? Nice. humans. Well, congratulations to us, and thank you, Nastasia, for signing us up. Yeah, each? Yeah, nice. All right. Worth it. Worth it. worth every penny. By the way, it looks like I'm horribly out of shape. Today on the Williamsburg Bridge. Today on the Williamsburg Bridge. No sympathy. This guy, I didn't ask for sympathy. You know, I like how, see, Nastasia, again, this is another thing about Nastasia. those of you don't don't know. You looked at 1155. For those of you that don't know what's going. I didn't say I am late as a result of being out of shape. I said I'm horribly out of shape. Nastasia creates conversations in her head and assumes that they've already taken place and then makes conclusions based on those conversations that she thinks has already taken place. Like, for instance, me saying, I'm late because I'm out of shape instead of them leaving early. I'm just merely stating the fact that I'm out of late. Now, continue with my story that has nothing to do with me being late. has to do with me being out of shape, Nastasia. Uh, the, um, this guy passes me at the beginning of the Williamsburg Bridge, and he's on the straightaway, so I figure I'll catch up to him because I very rarely get passed because I bike, uh, not because I'm in shape or because I'm athletic, neither of which is the case, but I get extremely angry when I ride the
+
+[2:08] bicycle, and his nostalgia knows anger increases my physical abilities. Not in a Hulk-like sense, but just, you know, anger, right, Seth? Right. Yeah. Anyways, guy beat me by 30 seconds to the top of the bridge. I could not believe it. I'm going to have to go into some sort of training regimen. The reason I'm late, actually, is because I didn't follow my own advice, because I'm a moron, to come here and do my research from
+
+[2:27] Roberta is instead of doing it from home. That's the reason I'm late, Nastasia, for your information. Anyways, let's go to some questions because I have a reduced amount of time. On the leukuma, which I promised I'd answer. Uh, the question was, uh, can you use lucuma powder? Uh, is there a substitute for
+
+[2:44] lucuma, leucuma? Is this fruit that I think some people think is a superfood or something? I don't know. It comes from Peru. And I said that I thought I'd do something similar to it in Colombia, and that I'll come back once I'm back from Colombia, which I am now. Got back on Monday. Uh, would, uh, you know, maybe you could use instead or that I try to use some of its properties to figure out a
+
+[3:02] substitution. Turns out, I was completely incorrect, and memory, my memory was completely wrong. When I researched my memory when I got back because I didn't see anything similar to it. What I remembered is, is that Nastasia, you have to tune in for this and tune out of your Zappo's session there. The, uh, it's not, uh, it wasn't anything in Colombia I had that was similar to Luca, it's Kenestelle. Remember Canistell? The egg fruit that we had in the Fruit and Spice Park? And based on that, there is a taste component to it that's important, but it seems to me it's mostly the texture of it that's
+
+[3:34] important. Uh, because it was the texture of that egg custard fruit, uh, canistell, C-A-N. I can't spell out loud, but canistell, that was so kind of amazing. And, uh, there is a producer of Canistell that ships. When it's in season, which is, I think, December through March or May or something like that. And they're in Florida. And if you go on local harvest.org and look up fresh gardens, they will ship fresh canistell anywhere in the
+
+[4:03] US. I don't think you're going to get a powder that's going to mimic those same things. I mean, you could use a hydrocoloid mix to do it. But the thing about the, the thing about the canistell, and I guess a
+
+[4:13] leukumo, which I've never used fresh, is it's just extremely dense and
+
+[4:17] custody on its own, which is probably a combination of high fiber content, low water content, and probably a number of strange polysaccharides that contribute to
+
+[4:27] its, to its consistency. So you could try to get that texture just by jacking polysaccharides
+
+[4:32] in it. For instance, locust bean gum or locust bean gum is good for that because Guar is expensive now. you're going to use Guar, you'd have to use the flavor free Guar from TIC gums, or some form of thickener. The issue when you thicken something is you, some people say that you uh, perceive an increased gumminess, which is true. The higher the concentration you use, the more a kind of gummy something is, but sometimes that can be pleasurable.
+
+[4:57] It's just basically managing the expectations of what the texture is going to be and messing around it to get the texture right. The other issue when you add hydrocolloids is once you add them in enough of a concentration to truly thick and thick and thicken something, you're masking flavor.
+
+[5:11] And the only way to uh, reduce that masking effect is to increase the flavor profile of what you're what you're using. But I'll try to look into it more. It's an interesting problem. I wasn't able to I wasn't able to get an answer for you, so I apologize. Right style, I'm useless men. But you enjoy the egg custard stuff, right? Love it, yeah. Canistell delicious. And by the way, if you believe the wiki, folks, Canistell actually tastes better than the Luca, I'm just they don't happen to grow the Luca, being the Canistell in, I guess, Peru, where it's popular, where Luca was popular. How about that? So stuff we had was actually superior. Anyway, okay. Next question. From, oh, we had a response, actually, to our vegetarian gummy question from Andrew. He says, hey guys, I just thought I might be able to help with the question about vegetarian gummies. On the subject of alcohol, because of, you know, the person who wrote in, wanted to know if they could make an alcohol gummy. On subject of alcohol, I've made an alcohol centered gummy for a product development project in a confectionery school, but the thing
+
+[6:12] is, you need a 2 shot mogul. And for those who don't know what a mogul is because that's not going to make sense to anyone. Mogul is, I think it's a brand name of NIDI needy or whatever they're pronounced is of confectionery machines that do starch molding. So it's a whole confectionery line that produces starch
+
+[6:29] molds and then does depositing of candies into starch molds. And they're called moguls. You can look up, NIDI, mini mogul, if you want to look up the thing. NIDI starch depositing, look at mini mogul or there are other other lines, and they use them for depositing marshmallows, fondants, and, you know, jellies, all that kind of stuff.
+
+[6:49] Uh, anyways, so, uh, wait, where were they? Oh, yes. But the thing is, you need a 2 shot mogul, and you need to make sure that both your outer gummy and your inner alcohol mixture have close to the same specific gravity, so it's not really possible at home, which I figured, right?
+
+[7:05] figured. Okay. For vegetarian gummies with a really chewy texture, however, I would try messing around with either starch, which we've talked
+
+[7:12] about, or gum Arabic. Agar is way too short, meaning, I guess, brittle, to replicate a gelatin gummy. And I personally don't like the cooling effect that comes with high levels of vagar. That said, pectin is my favorite for gels, has such a great flavor release and texture. Thanks for everything you do. Andrew. Ah, and the one that you was really easy for you to do at home, it's not starch, it doesn't require a lot of cooking, and I hadn't thought of, is the one he mentions, which is gum Arabic. Gum Arabic is expensive, but what's interesting about gum Arabic is it has an extremely high solubility. So, but yet it means you have to use a preposterously high amount of gum Arabic, but that said, you have a minimal
+
+[7:50] taste impact with gum Arabic on your flavors.
+
+[7:56] So this is an excellent suggestion, but I believe, and I haven't had time, because I just read this this morning to research uh, Arabic-based gum Arabic-based candies, but I'm pretty sure you're going to have to deposit it liquid into
+
+[8:08] a starch mixture and then let it dry for a fairly long period
+
+[8:13] uh, in a relatively controlled environment. I mentioned, I believe, starch molding once in the past. And there is online available. And 18, I think 90s or 19, 10s or 20s, uh, handbook producing England on confectionery. It's like the complete confectioner or something like that. And it has an entire section on starch molding and how to accomplish it with techniques that don't require sophisticated equipment.
+
+[8:36] i.e. you can do it at home. It's not state of the art because it's from over a 100 years ago, but it's doable at home and it goes through the ins and outs of
+
+[8:43] molding and starch and it's available free on Google books. So that's something maybe you should look into. Another question. Should we take a break or should we take the question? No, go on. Okay, another question. James writes in with several things. Once thanking us for circulation circulator info. Dear Jack, Joe, Nastasia and Dave, I've been really enjoying the show down here in Australia and have a few questions about freezing, shelf
+
+[9:07] life, and tentacles. After learning about rethermalizing, which is what we call reheating so that the government doesn't get mad that we didn't reheat it to an incredibly high temperature, destroying all the flavor and
+
+[9:14] texture, whatnot. After learning about rethermalizing on your show, using a thermal circulator has become an everyday part of our cooking, it is greatly increased the yumminess in our house.
+
+[9:22] It's now routine to make quantities of both stock and prepared meals, such as curry, soups, and other ingredients for more elaborate dishes, including wild mushrooms, confit, and octopus. They are prepared and then chilled using good food handling practices, including ice baths and flat pans for chilling, fat, excuse me, flat pans for chilling, then held at 2 degrees C
+
+[9:38] overnight, and packed in serve-sized portions using a chamber, vacuum sealer, flattened and frozen in layers no greater than 30 millimeters. Uh, by the way, this is kind of, I love hearing that we've ever said anything that actually makes people's food better, right? I mean, that's, that to me is, that's the best. I love that. Like that's that's the success. That's, you know, and before we had, uh, you know, a bar or any kind of place
+
+[10:01] when, uh, we could actually serve things to people to directly make them, uh, hopefully make them happy, the only kind of uh, satisfaction we got out of stuff was that people said that the information we gave them
+
+[10:12] helped. So I like that. Anyway, the freezer is set to -19 C, which is roughly -4 Fahrenheit for you guys here in Fahrenheit
+
+[10:20] land, and using the turbo button, which we don't have, which I assume is a fan speeding thing to increase air circulation on the inside of your freezer, which
+
+[10:27] is a good idea. I wish all freezers had kind of an increased circulation technique on the inside of the freezer to handle large loads like that when they could and is rated to handle 19 kilograms of freezing per 24 hours. It is a frost-free model made by male, uh, leave her. We get mail, but we don't get the fridges over here, do we? don't think so. associate that more with Europe, yeah? It seems to be designed to minimize the freeze thaw cycle by sealing the drawers and dehumidifying.
+
+[10:55] My question is, how long can I keep this frozen stuff? The online guide, say one month for stock, 3 for prepared meals and fish, yet the snap frozen
+
+[11:04] wild caught shrimp I have purchased, have a shelf life of 18 plus months. What's the deal? Ah, excellent question. What's the deal? Here's the deal. The freezing shelf life, the frozen shelf life of products, and this is a dirty secret that no one tells
+
+[11:21] you. When you are looking at the shelf life of a refrigerated product, most people think what you're talking about
+
+[11:28] is how long can it stay in the refrigerator and still be safe, right?
+
+[11:33] Because bacteria can still grow, molds can grow in the fridge. And so in the fridge, shelf life is a safety concern. However, when someone is raiding the shelf life of a product. They're actually rating 2 separate things. They're rating, one, is it going to be safe to consume? And two, is it going to taste good, right? So there are plenty things that exceed their shelf life in the fridge or in the
+
+[11:55] freezer, but are still safe. Now, in the fridge, it actually is dual situation,
+
+[12:00] safety and safety and palatability. In the freezer, it's almost exclusively, shelf life is almost exclusively based on is it going to taste good or cook well once it gets out. And the culprits in a freezer are, one, free stall over time, right? So they have to assume a general, you know, a certain kind of level of quality of your of your fridge, freezer rather. So most freezers thermally cycle quite a bit and go up and down, up and down. In any home freezer, not 100% of the water in a product is frozen unless you're talking about pure water ice. Because not all of this is frozen. Anytime the temperature goes up and down, some more of the concentrated, basically
+
+[12:43] everything that's in your meat, like salt, proteins, all those things are in
+
+[12:47] a very concentrated solution. water increases and decreases, and when every time it does, smaller ice crystals inside of your product tend to grow because the smallest ice crystals typically are going to melt all the way
+
+[12:59] 1st. And then when they refreeze, they'll freeze back onto the larger crystal. So ice crystal size increases over time in your freezer. And as a result, those larger ice crystals penetrate cell walls and whatnot and cause for more drip loss, which means when you thought more of the inside juices of your
+
+[13:14] product, you're going to drip out, rendering your product more crappy. So the longer period of time it spends, in a freezer that's opened and closed a lot of freeze thaw
+
+[13:23] cycles, the crappier your product is. And so that's a major influence on shelf life. Another problem with shelf life is things that are exposed to actual atmosphere on the inside of your fridge, whether inside of a package or not, tend to, what happens is they grow crystals on the
+
+[13:40] outside and the surface of the meat become dehydrated, due to sublimation, and then recrystallization, et cetera. This is called freeze freezer burn. And so this is a situation that deteriorates over time, right? And so this is another reason why certain things have a specific shelf life. You minimize this by reducing any opportunity for your product surface to not be covered. So if you're vacuum bagging, this reduces a lot of that, or even if you're bagging something and you remove most of the errors, such that all the surface is in contact with something that's going to prevent sublimation of water, you're preventing that.
+
+[14:13] The 3rd thing is, is that because you're actually in a concentrated solution and not totally frozen, right? certain oxidative changes and other changes, enzymatic changes, whatnot, can take place in a freezer,
+
+[14:23] acidity of fats is one that's very well known. Fats can become more rancid in the freezer if they're stored. And you're reducing that by vacuuming at a high level of vacuum. So you want to, you know, a high, high level of vacuum when you're doing this. And that's going to retard those kinds of things, thereby increasing the shelf life on the inside of a freezer. So the steps that you're taking, right, should ensure that you have a very long shelf life, right?
+
+[14:46] One thing you should notice that freezing is not a prevention, if freezing doesn't kill bacteria necessarily. So the safety of a product when you go when it goes into the freezer isn't any better than it is when it comes out, the freezer just
+
+[14:58] arrests kind of any sort of bacterial degradation during its freeze time.
+
+[15:03] If you actually want to preserve things for a dang near infinity. You need a freezer that actually does freeze all the way down to the point where everything in the product is frozen. And for that, you need a super deep freeze, like our friends Mark Ladner has over there at the Del Posto that keeps things at like -79.
+
+[15:19] Uh, I think Fahrenheit or Celsius, I forget which, which, um, in French is dang cold, and most people can't do at home. And in there, there's no liquid water left in the substance at all. And so, in essence, it's in suspended animation. Okay, next, I'm a big fan of the sous vide octopus tentacles as they are tender, but don't have the honey-ish taste. It seems to come out when cooked conventionally for a long time in stews. Um, My question is, uh,
+
+[15:44] cook this news. After most experimentation, ruling out suppliers. I got octopus from Victorian and West Australian sources. I've worked out the timings in the both under pressure book and the modernist cuisine
+
+[15:55] book, result in an overcooked pappy mess that falls to bits or delaminates for want of a better word. Prior to stealing, the legs are blanched for 45 seconds in a big pot of water and sealed to a medium vacuum. The size of the octopus doesn't seem to influence the time that much of cooking, but the common across any cooking time is the legs seem to lose a lot of
+
+[16:13] fluid that sets in much the same way as a gelatin, and they never seem to look like the pictures. Not that I'm complaining, they still taste good, and the octogoo makes a great addition to sauces and makes a mean ramen. During some tests, I've worked out that the timing needs to be reduced one. one to one. 5 hours, about 25 to 30% of the recommended cooking times. By the way, under pressure, I consulted it and their recommended octopus cooking is 77 degrees Celsius for 5 hours. Um, But size seems to make little. Oh, these can be big critters, where I come from, with 4 tentacles weighing in at over one. 8 kilograms, which is like almost £5 for us Americans here. But size seems to make little difference. I think this is a result of the practice of tenderizing that occurs down here using a
+
+[16:57] free saw cycle or a small cement mixer. But I'm interested to get your take on it, changed. Cheers. Cheers, James. I like that. Cheers. from Chains. That's going to be that's going to be my sign off on letters. Jeers. See if anyone gets it. Anyway, so, Nastasia, remember when we cooked that giant octopus, were you there that day? Yeah, so True World Foods, which is a Japanese supplier and which, you know, UG Haraguchi, who now is working here at Roberta's and has his own ramen shot. Yuji, Go Yuji, anyway, Yuji used to be our supplier from True World. And he once got us a giant octopus tentacle. Remember that sucker? was big. And here's the, and we cooked it. And before I go on, because I'm going to forget to mention it. The interesting thing that no one talks about with octopus cookery. And that Nils and I used to think about quite a bit and only had a couple times to experiment
+
+[17:46] with is that N McGee talked about, we talked about it a lot in the McGee, Harold McGee classes, who I'm going to see next week at Harvard, by the way, next
+
+[17:52] week, cooking issues is going to be in Harvard. I can see if I can. I got to see if we can do the show from Harvard though. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, because we're doing the Harvard lecture again next week. Uh, okay, octopus. By the way, I'm sorry, I have so many, so many diversions that no one knows what I started talking about, but
+
+[18:09] this, you had to excuse me. how my brain works. So, um, octopus are like the smartest things. like one of the smartest things in the ocean. They only live for like two, like summer even shorter, but like the big ones like two, 3 years. And then after they, either the males, after they do their business. you know what I mean? with the women, right? They go senile and just start wandering around on the floor and let themselves get of the ocean and start letting themselves get eaten by anything that goes
+
+[18:35] around. They go, it's called senility. It's senescence. So this is literally what happens. The males do that, right? And then they're like, man, they wander around the floor and just get eaten and taken apart and stuff like that. The female octopus. Whatever. They don't give a crap anymore. It's like literally like they just wander around on the floor of the ocean drunk and crazy and then get eaten. The female octopus holds itself up, like doesn't eat
+
+[18:57] anymore, and sits there with its funnel, just airy, like, you know, blowing water over the surface of its eggs to prevent kind of parasites from attaching and to protect them in case the poop hits the fan down
+
+[19:09] there. Then as soon as the eggs hatch, she wanders off and dies and starves or whatever and it's done. Yeah. So anyway, so there's these weird things that are that are incredibly smart. like kind of amazing. They have amazing skin, amazing abilities, like cephalopods in general, of which octopus is my favorite. although I'm probably not to eat. Probably squid is my favorite to eat. Cephalopod. I think it goes like this. I think it goes squid. Then octopus, cuttlefish being dead last in my in my cephalopod ranking of eating. Anyway, they're like incredibly smart. And if they live for even, like, you know, twice or 3 times as long, it's my feeling that we would have octopus butlers on
+
+[19:47] like in like aquariums on motors, like following us around, like doing our workforce because they would have evolved to that much higher level of thinking. And if they lived in order of magnitude longer, like 30 years. I have no question that they would have evolved to the point where they'd be out here just kicking our behinds left and
+
+[20:03] right and that we'd be in little cages and they'd be marveling at how well we could unscrew a jar with our tentacles, i.e. fingers.
+
+[20:08] Yeah, man, they're really amazing creatures, but delicious. Anyway, something you might not know is that the different tentacles of an octopus taste different, right? So they have dominant tentacles and non-dominant tentacles. So that's an interesting thing, especially because we usually eat octopus, like hacked up in a salad. There's no way to know. And also, the texture of the tentacle is radically different depending on where in the tentacle you get it. So we did a comparative tasting of this giant octopus tentacle from the base of the tentacle all the way to the tip.
+
+[20:35] And it's been many years since we did it. But I believe the sweet spot was somewhere, like towards the 1st 3rd of the, not the thin part. You didn't like the thin part, right? That's the more rubbery part. That's the more rubbery part. And by rubbery, I mean, like the same texture as the small part of the lobster claw. You know, the small part of the lobster claw has that weird texture. Yeah. So the I believe the tip of the tentacle has that kind of a texture more, which makes sense if you think about it.
+
+[21:00] But you don't want the very base either. I think it was like right around the 1st third. And you could do that in this tentacle because it was like 3 feet long. It was crazy. Uh, and so uh, the way we did it similar to the way you did. We did Japanese style where it slowly dipped tentacle point 1st so it curls into itself, then put in a bag and
+
+[21:17] vacuumed, and it does indeed release a lot of goo. And this is the difference between oven cooking something or pot cooking something and doing it in a bag because the one thing that people always
+
+[21:26] don't think about or rarely think about when they're cooking in a vacuum bag is there's no reduction inside that bag at
+
+[21:32] all. And so what that means is all the juices that are exuded from the meat itself end up in the bag. That said, so you're not going to get that concentration, which is where that honeyness is coming from that you get if it's kind of reducing in its own goo over time in an oven.
+
+[21:46] That said, that octagoo is delicious, but I don't think there's any way that you can get around that.
+
+[21:53] As for the other problem you had, which is the shorter cooking time. I haven't done a comparative study. I know about freestyling, which talking about before is basically ice crystals rupturing the flesh so that when it thaws out, it's going to drip, but then also be more tender. That works. And so does the technique we call beating the hell out of, which is also practiced by some
+
+[22:14] people, but I myself have never run a comparative study of a non-frozen versus a fresh
+
+[22:18] octopus, and I've never run a comparative study of a beaten hell out of versus not the beaten hell out of an
+
+[22:23] octopus. So I can't really speak to whether or not your octopus is different from our octopus. And by that, I mean, whether your octopus is different from Nathan Mirabel's octopus and Thomas Keller's octopus, which are the 2 sources that you cited. That said, some people like their octopus to be a pappy mess, which I don't. I like a little more tooth in the octopus. Nastasia, what do you like, a mushy mess or more tooth? Tooth. Yeah. So it could just also be a matter of taste because one person's mush is another person's tender. And so I think, that's a nice way to say it, right? So I don't know. It's really all a matter of taste. I didn't time it when we did it. We literally did it by pulling the bag out of the water and squeezing it. We also, I believe, did it at a much higher temperature. I don't think when we do our tests, we did our tests at 77. Um, I think we did a good bit higher, like 85. So I can't really speak to it, but we did not cook for 5 hours. There's no way on God's earth we cooked that thing for 5 hours. We just kept pulling it out of the bag and squeezing it. In our opinion, the amount of time did make a difference based on size. And the reason I say this is because the tips of the tentacles were definitely done from the base of the tentacles. So the size did make a significant difference in our opinion, but that also could be that the different parts of the muscle were different.
+
+[23:34] So we didn't test, we didn't basically were schmucks, were schmucks. What we should have done is is taking the octopus tentacle and sectioned it all the way down in an exactly, you know, same sized strip all the way
+
+[23:47] down in case it along the length. But you can't do that either because octopus muscle, the way it's structured, it's
+
+[23:55] what do they call it? hydrostat, hydraulic hydrostat, something like that. There a word for the way octopus muscles work. And it's the same way that our tongue works. Our tongues are articulated, so we can move them in any direction, even though there's no bones. And so there's a particular muscular arrangement in an octopus, same as an elephant's trunk that allows that to happen. And so taking an internal portion of it, it's not going to be the same as taking the external portion. So you can't win. Turns out, as usual, Nastasia. can't win. Wait, you never wrote the post on that, did you? No, of course I never wrote the post on that. I just had the information in my head. I never wrote the post. We had the pictures. It was Piper who did it. And as an shout out to someone who's going to buy the Bamnox, cleaning the Bam, this is also from
+
+[24:30] James. Cleaning the Bamnox is really easy. Run it in hot soapy water, then clean water and wipe down the housing. The blades group really well, and I've used the units that are 25 years old are still going strong. Make sure you get a 240 watt for home use. Badass power. Bad makes from James. It's not our commercial, as James. I was just reading it with my commercial voice. Yeah. With that, let's take our 1st break. Cooking your shoes. So you don't shot the devil with your rock and roll load knows that country music's gonna save your soul, the devil buns is
+
+[25:00] groove with them rhythm and blows that cell. It's gonna get you sun in the air.
+
+[25:13] I wish that is sad and those things that that took you. To God and spirit, man, of a team to one advance. The one who comes in people with them. The rock game goes to the brisket. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods market. Did you know that pollinators are needed for more than two-thirds of the world's crop species? Most of these pollinators are bees. However, North America's bee population has been steadily declining since the 1990s. Whether you live in the country of the city, you can show your commitment by hosting a hive in your backyard or even on a rooftop. The beekeeping movement is growing, so you're sure to find swarms of folks who can help you find your way. Learn more about the ways you can help be the solution at bothfoodsmarket.com slash share the buzz. Damage is done.
+
+[26:15] You'll see that stones in hell by the villain as well. Really, Jack? Really, Jack, be the solution. It's not my, it's not my copy. I thought it was kind of nice. So what music are we listening to? That's more of Damon's band, Brothers. Damon Bolty. Are we going to get a shout out to the to the thing next week or not? Are you going to give a shout out to it? Come to the heritage radio. And what is it, annual fundraising party? Right here, huh? Our 1st annual fundraiser. First annual members only fundraising party at Roberta Pizzeria on Sunday, September,
+
+[26:51] the what, eighth? You got to give me the... you don't have it in front of you. If I'm gonna if I'm gonna scream like monster truck things, you have to have it in front of you, it's it's hard to put the monster truck voice on and we live at the same time. good news, though. We have some additions. We have sellers at Jasper Hill going to bring cheese. Biggie Grip type from Daptone Records is going to be DJing Funk and Soul with special guests. And get this, Brian Kenny, the guy you know from the Hearst Ranch
+
+[27:16] commercial, will be playing songs. He might just play the Hearst Ranch commercial. Well, now there's something I have to say if he's not going to play it, we're not doing it. That's it. think he'll do it. Okay. All right, because I was about to walk out. Nastasia and I have decided that our New Year's resolution last year and it's a little late, so we'll have to do it again for this year. is to be complete divas at all times, right? You don't have the yellow Skittles. out. There is periage UA, so that means I'm going to be here. I'll fly through some menu items too. Michael Anthony from Gramercy is doing wood fire, roasted market, vegetables. Evan from Paris Hall, cooking sockeye salmon from Bristol Bay. Brooks is doing a brown butter, sour apricot, semi-fredo with olive oil croutons. Did I mention what a badass pastry cooked tomato is? Yeah, he is. And this one, this is the last Brady? How's this for a menu item description? Pickled forest mushroom salad with handmade farmer's cheese, sidewalk greens, and toasts. Sidewalk greens? Sidewalk greens. Let me tell you, you can collect lots of sidewalk greens on the lower east side. I just don't happen to pick them. I'm a little nervous about the exhaust fumes from the in my lamb's quarters. I'm assuming these were not from the lower east side. I'm assuming it's lamb Bushwick? I hope not. I'm assuming it's land quarters. those things grow all over the city. Like there's lamb's quarters all over this city that you can just pick and use. Like Purslane, I guess. No, no, it's like Oric. like, man, it's like salad. good. It does not, it's not like that sour. good. I mean, again, I've only collected it not next to where I've seen homeless people poop. What? that's true I'm not saying there's homeless poop in this dish, people. You should still pay the money and come to the members only party. Jack's horrified now. All of a sudden Jack stops talking about them. Hey, look, homeless people's poop wash is off the same as horse and dog poop does. Don't worry about it. So it's heritage radionetwork.eventbright.com. How much are tickets? They're 150, but you're cooking issues listeners, so you can use the code cooking issues for a $50 discount. Oh, snap. Has anyone used our code yet? have to check that out. Yeah. Are you gonna charge more if you come to the door? No. You should charge more if you come in. VIP is 250, yes. And for that, Nastasia will smile at you while she has the glass of piers juet in her hand. Only if she has the glass in her hand. One of my favorite things about Nastasia, and this is true favorite thing, is that she
+
+[29:34] is a sucker for champagne. loves, as do I, by the way. I love champagne. love it And Nastasia loves champagne so much that even if we're trying to serve a
+
+[29:45] cocktail instead of drinking our cocktail to like to sell the cocktail that we're making, she's like,
+
+[29:49] crap, man, I want champagne. I want me some champagne. Well, if you put strawberry in it. your strawberry. Is that what we're going to do? I think so Yeah, that's what we're doing. Well, it's not going to be strawberry. It going to be a different fruit that's in season. But something like that. Something like that. Okay. Buy the dang tickets. Support this show by buying the tickets with our code so that people know that this is a PBS thing here, right? This is our PBS pitch that they know that, you know, you care about, if you care about quality programming, like cooking issues radio. Show your support by becoming a member of Heritage Radio today, right? Does that sound more like what they would say? Good PBS voice. Yeah, thank you. Okay, another question. From Co-F Miles about coon recon pressure cookers. I'm a longtime listener to your cooking issues radio show, albeit offline and seriously time delayed
+
+[30:34] via the podcast. The question may be more for David because Nastasia doesn't care. It doesn't mess in. But I've been experimenting with an 8 quart coon recon pressure cooker. I would now like to start making healthy quantities of stock. That means big. I'm looking for a cooker between 28 and 30 quarts. To date, I have been able to find only aluminum cookers in that size. Since my stove is induction. I need stainless steel cookers or one with a stainless steel bottom plate. Do you guys know where I might look, thanks in advance. Co-F Miles. No. There is, as far as I know, no easily purchasable pressure
+
+[31:08] cooker that is that large other than the ones made by American, like American pressure cooker Americans. Wisconsin Foundry, and they make the large ones. And Nastasia, we have one with the screw down things. the answer to that question this morning. What? This question? There was no, yeah. Yeah, I did care. That's fair, fair. I'm going to take that as a smack. By the way, what you're hearing now is Nastasias. I get beaten on by Dave on the radio show. Again, if you guys heard even 12th of what she says to me off air, you would have no sympathy.
+
+[31:42] I'm just saying that because that's her ploy. It's her ploy. I looked it up this morning because I was like, this guy thinks I won't know the answer. So he's asking David. Oh, you see, it's actually because, you see, you never know what she's going to take personally. You're getting better insight into the Lopez mind here, by the way, folks, which I appreciate. But there is a simple solution for you. Um, The simple solution is they, uh, you can buy this. It's preposterously overpriced, but you can look online for the Max Burton 8 inch induction interface disk. And it's just a slug of stainless steel with a handle on it that you put in between the induction burner and your stainless steel, your aluminum
+
+[32:22] pressure cooker. And with that, you can then they're also do ceramics, glass. You can heat anything because the induction burner is instead of heating your pot directly is heating a steel slug in between your pot and
+
+[32:35] the thing. It's not as efficient or as fast as a
+
+[32:41] normal, you know, induction in a pot, right? Because you're not heating the pot directly, but it is still fairly
+
+[32:47] efficient, and I haven't tested it myself, but it should be fairly fast, not as fast, but fairly fast. Won't be on, obviously, on ceramics because it takes a long time for the heat to travel through. ceramic no matter how it's applied. But they charge like a 100 bucks for it, which is an outrage. You can just buy like a steel plate, like 8 by 8 or like 12 by 12, but you really want to fit the size of your pot. You can just buy a steel plate online. It doesn't have to be stainless even, stainless is nicer and it won't rust, but anything like that, a slug to put in there. But look at, so you can get the basic, like, look of how it looks. Max Burton, 8 inch induction interface disk with heatproof handle. And that's your solution. If you're worried about putting stuff inside of aluminum because you think that there's a taste issue, although I cook an aluminum quite often, you know, barring certain, you know, highly whatever. Anyway, you can put a Bain Marie on the inside of it, a large Bain Marie on the inside of one of those pressure cookers and still make a large quantity of stock or you can cook directly in the aluminum. One last thing, if you have a lot of space, money, and power, you can buy a used autoclave, which is a medical piece of equipment that functions as a pressure
+
+[33:49] cooker, and you can actually use an autoclave as an extremely large pressure cooker, but unless you, you know, you have to keep it in your garage or something like
+
+[33:57] that. But that's what they use, they use, Frankie, the instrument, the equipment company sells autoclaves that are
+
+[34:04] repurposed for kitchens. And also, I think, I forget who makes them here, Market Forge, pressure cookers that are basically like
+
+[34:10] autoclaves that are meant for kitchens, but they're not often used outside of industrial institutional cooking here.
+
+[34:15] And in Europe, they're used like Nils used to use them in Sweden on large amounts of potatoes. Okay. Hi, Dave, Nastasian Joe and Jack. This is coming in from Arnie Skoug in Norway. Listen to your podcast yesterday. I've had a few tips for the guy who asked about shrimp cakes and sausages. I'm Norwegian. In Norway, fish cakes are traditional popular way of processing fish, commonly made from cod,
+
+[34:38] haddacompolic. Homemade fish cakes invariably use egg, flour, and potato starch as a binder. It is said that not using a binder renders them short, that is grainy. Commercially made fish cakes use different binders like tapioca and contain only from 40 to 60% fish. However, I've been experimenting on using a different approach, wanting to use as much fit as possible for flavor. And I've been using a method adopted from research I've done on sausage making. I read some mayor, I think, in an article by Lynn Knipe, associate professor of Ohio State, uh,
+
+[35:02] that, uh, in the meat department that regulating the pH value of meat of meat is a good way of obtaining a good primary buying and sausage. I lost the article in a computer crash and can't find it again. So this is from memory. The article says that a relatively high pH in meat helps solubleize myocin in meats. It also says pour slaughtering practices can result in meat with a low pH value due to improper chilling, and also for animals that freaked out when they die. The pH can drop quick because they have not enough glycogen in them. Anyway, this promotes the breakdown of glycogen in the muscles. A higher pH also increases the water holding capacity of proteins. Anyway, I've used this experiment to I've used this information to experiment regulating pH in sausage meat and I usually incorporate sodium carbonate in the salt about one to 2% by weight of salt.
+
+[35:43] I wonder whether he's actually means sodium carbonator, whether it means bicarb. Not sure. But look up Harold McGee on sodium carbonate versus bicarb, but he's basically raising the pH of the meat. This greatly improves the binding capacity of the sausage, sometimes too much and the sausage becomes rubbery. In those cases, I add vinegar to the sausage meat and mix well, which loosens the texture again. Back to shellfish protein. I've used the same technique with fish cakes, with good results, and believe it would be worth trying. It's interesting. Um, I've also experienced that the freshness of the fish is important, but I don't know if this is because of pH. What you're talking about there, and he agrees with me on the grinding and stuffing, and says you use a sausage stuffer, but they're expensive because the auger in a meat grinder heats up the meat again.
+
+[36:17] You can buy inexpensive sausage stuffers in this country. If you go to like harbor freight or northern tools or grizzly and buy sausage stuffers that are intended for hunters, they're not as well built as the normal kitchen ones, but they'll work. You can buy a £5 sausage stuff for under with a hand crank for under a 100 bucks, I think. Okay, so the article he's talking about, which you should read is by Lynn, L-Y-N-N, Knipe, K-N-I-P-E, Meet Export Research Center of Iowa State University, which is why you had problems, and it's called
+
+[36:43] use of phosphates and sausage. Read it. It says a lot about phosphate, which increases the water holding capacity and also helps fat emulsification by altering the ionic balance in
+
+[36:52] there. So go ahead and read it. Arnie will be in New York in February, March of next year. Are there any classes he can take? and going to have Nastasia look into that and we'll talk about it next because I don't know what my classes are. They tell me like a day before and I just show up and cook them kindly. William writes in about milk. Howdy y'all? I love making custard based ice cream. I understand that tempering the egg yolks is a normal procedure, especially for food safety. Are there other benefits to tempering the yolks? Why not use pasteurized eggs, sous pasteurized or Davidson's brand pasteurizing and skip the tempering altogether? Also, I live next door to a dairy farm that offers raw milk and cream. My country living folks tell me that I should still pasteurize the raw milk, so I never bothered going there. I've never had raw milk. Does it really taste much better? Okay, 1st of all, on the custard ice cream. There is a difference between like ones that haven't been cooked out and ones that have, if you look at it, a creme anglaise base is thicker than if you just blended the ingredients together.
+
+[37:39] So I've never tasted side by side. Same recipe cooked normally versus not cooked. Okay? But I cooked actually to an anglaise up to like 82 to 15 minutes in a uh, edge of Celsius for 15 minutes in a circulator. However, I'm assuming that you're going to get a faster meltdown in the one that hasn't been cooked out just because there's a higher viscosity
+
+[38:00] in the one that has been cooked. That said, Sam Mason, who's like an ice cream genius, like, you know,
+
+[38:05] like an ice cream savant almost. He's crazy ice cream delicious. Doesn't like the taste of cooked eggs in his custards and doesn't cook there for the custards. And I just started experimenting with low temperature,
+
+[38:16] uh, basically pasteurizing my uh, ice creams at like 60 degrees Celsius or 62 degrees Celsius, which is what I did when I was in
+
+[38:22] Colombia last. And they're great. So, you know, I don't think that there's uh, in other words, you can make, and Sam makes some of the most delicious ice cream that I've ever had in my life. And that stuff. Uh, he doesn't he doesn't cook it out. So I think it's mainly a safety issue. And when I cook for myself, generally, I just take the salmonella risk and eat it without pasteurizing, but I've been having to cook for pregnant people
+
+[38:44] recently. So I pasteurize the stuff out and out like 60. Okay, on raw milk. Does it taste better? Does it taste worse? I am going to defer to Ann Mendelssohn, who wrote a book on milk. And her argument on raw milk versus not raw milk is, I think, incredibly well
+
+[39:01] put. And she basically says that most people who talk about raw milk versus pasteurized
+
+[39:06] milk come at it from some crazy perspective other than taste. And she is a taste person. She says she's had that most pasteurized milk that you get. It's also homogenized pasteurized milk, by the way, is bad in the supermarkets compared to what the best milk can be. However, just having it be
+
+[39:23] raw doesn't make it better. The best milk she's had have been raw milks, but they've been from, you know, very
+
+[39:28] small, like producers who take a lot of care, have the right kind of cows, have the right kind of feed in X, Y, and Z. So her main point, which is the best point, and you so rarely read food writing, where people come at it from what I think is the correct point of view, which
+
+[39:44] is, it's not, it's, you know, she's not starting from a preconceived notion of what's best.
+
+[39:50] She's saying, hey, taste is the notion that I'm shooting for, what makes it taste better. So she's had horrible raw milk, and she said fantastic raw milk. And so, uh, go read her discussion of it in her book on milk, uh, and see what you think. Chris Young, you know, from Modernist Cuisine, you know, interestingly points out that it tastes as a matter of taste. In Africa, right? Everyone likes the taste of what we think is ridiculously overcooked milk. And if you tried to give them milk that tasted close to coming out of the cow as possible, they would think it's awful because they prefer the taste of cooked milk.
+
+[40:19] So taste is taste. While I was doing this. I looked up a website called realmilkfax.com, which is a
+
+[40:25] chill out for a law firm called Marler Clark, and this is a law firm that deals in food poisoning. So they're big on they make they make money based on assuming people as a result of food poisoning.
+
+[40:35] That's how they do it. But they have some interesting things. And from them I got to the CDC. The CDC is on a basically a crusade now to stop people from wanting to ask for raw
+
+[40:49] milk because they see that there's a huge surge in popularity in raw milk now among kind of health crunchies and then taste advocates. And so they have a big thing. So look up real rawmilkfax.com and they point to these 2 cases of kids. I would never serve raw milk, by the way, to like a young kid because if they get an E. coli breakout problem with a young kid. There's lots of things you wouldn't serve to a young kid other than just raw milk because of the possibility of a breakdown. I'm not going to have enough time to fully go through. Wait, so classes are the only one they have online, and it's hard to find, is um, 2 beat intensive September
+
+[41:25] 28th, 29th of this month. I don't think they're doing hydrochloids anymore. But if enough people. No, no, no. supposed to teach one called cooking issues, but like we never, never, uh... Well, maybe you should take that over and do it at the space. Yeah I don't know. Anyway, I think I'm going to have to go more into this pasteurization, not pasteurization and health and not next week, but I would like to point you to a website before we go, that I just, when I was researching this
+
+[41:52] stuff, came across, and they, NHS, which is the National Health Services of Britain, which by the way, I grew up completely frightened of, because my, you know, my parents are, well, you know, I grew up, my dad's an engineer, my mom's a
+
+[42:06] doctor, my stepfather's doctor. I grew up in kind of a doctor-y kind of a household. And I'm not going to have a time to go into this. But basically, so that, you know, when I was a kid, they were like, you know, you think that the healthcare in Britain is great, but if you're over the age of 65 and you need dialysis, they
+
+[42:20] let you die. This was back in the like 80s. That's probably not the case anymore, whatever. I'm going to get some calls on this crap. But, um, an interesting website that's put out by the NHS is
+
+[42:30] called, um, how to read health news. Oh, it's called choices behind the headlines. And one of the articles in it is How to Read the Health News by Alicia White. And we need a website like this in this country where it's basically, uh, they go and they debunk all of the health related claims that are made in the news. So, like, a big news story hits, like, uh, you know, gastric bypass surgery surges in the UK, and then they'll go and they'll be like, no, it's not actually surged because we're a nation of, like, you know, 1000000s and 1000000s of
+
+[43:01] people and, you know, increase from like a 1000 to 3,000. So yeah, it's like 300% more, but that's still like a drop in the bucket, stuff like that. And they actually break down studies and why they're
+
+[43:12] crap. And then also say how the news media is misinterpreting scientific studies and not doing their
+
+[43:17] research. So anyone involved in healthcare, uh,
+
+[43:22] and health and uh, research should in the U.S. should check out how they're doing it in Britain. And we'll talk more about that. Hopefully we'll get a comment on it. And it's called behind the headlines, on the NHS website, NHS, I think.uk. Look up how to read Health News by Dr. Alicia White, and that, maybe we'll talk more about it next week. If I'm back in next week, we might have to skip a week. Depends on whether we have time when I'm at Harvard. Are we teaching on Tuesday? don't think so. Midnight. Tuesday night? So then maybe we can do the show live from Harvard with Harold McGee cooking issues.
+
+[43:58] Vicious, fish, vodka. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[44:13] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit
+
+[0:16] internationalculinarycenter.com. Broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you live every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 at the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Butchwick,
+
+[0:45] Brooklyn. Jack decided not to show up today because... Well, we had the fundraiser over the weekend and now he's just too big for us, right, Joe? Yeah, he's doing presidential things right now, I'm guessing. Yeah, he's just, you know, he's like smoking, you know, tobacco rolled in $100 bills and all kinds of crazy stuff over there in the heritage radio headquarters.
+
+[1:06] But thankfully, Joe is with us, and as always, Nastasia Hammer Lopez, how you doing? Good. Yeah. Apologize that we were not able to do the live cooking issues with Harold McGee over at the Harvard
+
+[1:17] because we just couldn't do it. I mean, that's all there was to it. We couldn't do it. We were prepping out. The class started as the show would have been ending, and that would have
+
+[1:27] been that would have been a big poop show had we done that, right? True. True. So, speaking of McGee, Harold McGee and I will be in London, and we're going to go to the Poddale in Favisham, where Nastasia and I
+
+[1:41] went, like, a year and a half ago, maybe. Yeah. was 2 years ago? Two years ago? Two years ago? And it is... Well, okay, look, okay, look, all right, fine. Geneva, New York, is where all of our, when I say R, I mean, the good old US of A, where all of our apples are stored. And the way you store an Apple is by planting trees, right? So they don't just like literally store. I mean, they also store seeds and liquid nitrogen like sperm banks, but a lot of people don't really believe in that because
+
+[2:10] they think that the seeds might mutate over time, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. People like to own the freaking trees, right? Then also, if you have the trees, you can see how they respond to various things. The reason that our tax money goes to it. It isn't because people, uh, the people who decide the tax money stuff think that, you know, we should have wide variety of delicious apples. They're more worried that some crazy apple disease is going to come through and kill every apple, except that one crazy variety that they saved, right? At least that's the original genesis, the reason there's money behind this project. And so all of our apples are in Geneva. And Geneva, New York, has the greatest collection of apples anywhere in the world.
+
+[2:46] But, but the Brogdale and Favisham and Kent, England, an hour outside of London, is where they have the largest culinary
+
+[2:55] Apple collection. So the way they get around this is, is there's a crazy guy, Phil Forceline, who used to go to Kazakhstan, which is where
+
+[3:01] apples come from, and he would gather all kind of wild apples. I don't know how the hell he smuggled the seeds back into the U.S. or went through some crazy quarantine situation or whatever. Uh, because they have huge genetic diversity of uh, different Apple varieties, as well as other fruits, actually,
+
+[3:16] in this thing called the Tianshan fruit forest, which stretches from China to Kazakhstan.
+
+[3:20] And it's a huge kind of apparently incredibly beautiful, awesome place. And one of the places on Earth actually that I really want to go. Anyway, so he went there and just collected a bajillion different kinds of wild, you know, malice, apple species, and planted them in at
+
+[3:35] Cornell, up in Geneva. And it's, uh, it just so that obliterated the Brogdale's collection in terms of sheer numbers. But Brogdale has the culinary Apple collection to beat in the world.
+
+[3:46] However, however, I'm extremely partial to the flavor of apples as grown in upstate New York.
+
+[3:52] So we've been to the Apple collection, but when we went to the Broaddale app collection, Nastasia and I, I have a sidelined by the fact that they also have an incredibly awesome collection of pairs. And actually, you know what we missed last time, is there should still be a couple plums on the trees. See, here's what, but it's nut season, so they can have all the nuts. In fact, we're going to miss the nut festival. I mean, it'll be the nut festival with Harold and I there, but we're going to miss the official nut festival by a couple of days. The, here's what's amazing about the Brogdale and why anyone that lives anywhere near London and uh,
+
+[4:27] doesn't, or hasn't been to the Brogdale a bunch of times, honestly should be incredibly ashamed of themselves. They should just be, you know, you should be, I don't know, you should wear a hair shirt and a dunce cap and go into the corner and just, you know, beat yourself with sticks out of, out of, you know, anguish that you've missed, this huge portion of your life so close to this amazing resource and you haven't gone yet. say it's accurate? They could join you, can't they? I don't know. I don't know exactly what time it can be. McGee and I, well, 1st of all, though. So the Brockdale, unlike us, where our pairs are in Corvallis, Oregon and our berries are in Corvallis, Oregon, and we have our apples in Geneva, New York, and our
+
+[5:08] collections of germ plasma are spread all over the all over the country. Uh, the English basically can only grow stuff in Kent. Come on, no offense. But you can take offense if you want. But anyway, so their entire collection of stuff is at this one place.
+
+[5:24] So it's kind of one stop shopping for everything, small fruits, and, you know, the English, they know gooseberries like the nobody else. They have like the gooseberry collection, but not the time of year. Anyway. Apples, pears, nuts, plums, cherries, Kentish cherries. Anyways. So my point is, is that I'm going to temperate fruit paradise on Friday. Like my plan, my plan lands. McGee and I, he's coming from California. I'm coming from New York. We're meeting at Heathrow and taking a train directly to Favisham. I'm going to throw away all. I'm not even going to wear clothes. I just going to dress myself in fruit and then take that fruit because we're going to our good buddy, Tony Canoyaro,
+
+[6:03] and Ria's wedding. Congratulations to them. You know, one of my favorite bartenders in the whole world. Yeah? Yep. Yep. Okay. Call your questions live. 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joe, who's bringing the show to us today? It would be the International Culinary Center. The International Culinary Center. I'm doing actually a demo with them tomorrow. you coming to that thing or no? You're going today to figure? going to go there today and talk to them, but I mean, I don't think our viewers care about it. You're going to be there? We're doing a demo for Pepsi, Pepsi, PepsiCo, right? Pepsi. Anyway, okay, questions. Hey, Dave, Mastasia, Jack, and Joe, although Jack doesn't care about your question, Ron, because he's not here to listen to it.
+
+[6:40] I'm just kidding. I'm just messing with you. Uh, Several shows back, we pop, we pop, you know, we pop super pot, our intern, and the, one of the current founders and designers, I'm assuming, of
+
+[6:51] the uh, Namako emerging circulator. Some of shows back, WePep called to talk to you about the Namaku. Namakuanam Ko. Co, right? K? K? Coop. Okay. The emerging circulator designed for use in the home kitchen. Needless to say, I was extremely excited at the prospect of having an affordable low temp cooking solution out in the market. Recently, I was on the polyscience website and found out that they now offer, also offer a home version called the creative series. And it's called like, yeah, it's all like sous vide, and there's a sous vide creative and a sous vide professional, and then there's the old metal one, so it's kind of confusing, but you go on the website and you look at it. I think it's live on the website. I haven't seen one in real life. anyway, hold on. So the Namaku will be $140 cheaper than the sous vide creative
+
+[7:30] on polycience. Uh, the heater in the Namaku is going to have less wattage, 750 versus uh, 1100. Although, I really think Phillips is a 1000 watts. The heater itself is a thousand. I think it's 1,100. But anyway, whatever. But the pump is more powerful in the
+
+[7:45] Namaku, 10 liters per minute versus 6 liters per minute. The Nahu claims it can actually get water to 100 degrees C, while the creative goes to 99 degrees C. I mean that's a meaningless stat though. I mean, I wouldn't even pay attention to that. That's a meaningless stat. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, that's you know, don't worry about that. You're not going to want to put these into anything other than water anyway. So the old metal ones with stainless steel. Let me finish the question 1st before I go crazy. Okay. The rest of the specs, as far as I can tell, are about the same. Not sure if you had a chance to play with either, perhaps a Namaku prototype, but I'm hoping you can give us your honest opinion on which one you would get.
+
+[8:16] I'm not planning on getting one until the holidays. So the fact that the Namaku isn't actually out yet will not affect my purchasing decision. Also, I'm currently a student at the ICC, and I hear you'll be teaching a few classes this month. Is that true? I'm in level 6, uh, which is the last level. It's the level that the students cook in the restaurant. So at the school, there's there's 6 levels. The last 2 levels cooking the restaurant. So the, you know, the 1st 2 you're kind of learning stuff, the 3rd one, more learning stuff. 4th one, you're doing family meal for the whole school and 5 and 6 in the restaurant. Okay. If you're around, I'll be sure to say hi. I'll be the giddy Chinese guy with the sweaty palms. Thanks. I love the show, Ron fan. So Ron, obviously not a, if you have sweaty palms, not a good chocolate worker. Shouldn't work with chocolate. Don't go into pastry, my friend. I mean, I guess you could, but I mean, if you have sweaty palms, it's going to be difficult working with chocolate and pastry, correct? I mean, there are certain people who are to known things. Certain people have warmer palms and they have a very difficult time with things like chocolates. Just a known fact. Anyway. Okay, before I even get into this, uh, look, we pop as a friend of mine. I love myself, WePop, and Philip Preston is a friend of mine, and I've known him for many, many years, and he's been very supportive.
+
+[9:24] So it's very hard for me to come. I, you know, I can't, I almost can't come down with any sort of recommendation, uh, on one versus uh, the other because it's just, it would be crazy for me. You know what I'm saying? What do you think, Stas? I mean, that's kind of like, you know, Philip Preston has been. We're going to get one in December. Wait, the Philip, the new one? Pop is sending us. Anamaku? In December? All right, I haven't touched... I haven't touched the new creative series yet. But I sent a note over to Philip and I was like, Philip, what should I know about the creative system as opposed to the other one? And his response was, is that this new one, the 499 one, is designed to have a good control, very good temperature control, just like the other one. Have it be quiet, right? So I guess it's quieter for a home kind of situation. So the pump's not as loud, also not as fast, right? Less, it's less demanding use, right? Because it's not meant to run all day, every day like ours do, which isn't to say you can't do a 72 hour cook, but, you know, the way these things are treated in professional kitchens is crazy. They're running almost 247 sometimes. you know, all the time. So the current one's not designed to run all day, every day. It's got a lower cost, you know, 499. So I don't really know actually what the Namaku is coming in. Is it really $170 cheaper? Is it really $320? I don't. I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say. Also, you never know if it's going to be sold at William Sonoma. Williams Sonoma later is a retail price and then Williams Sonoma is going to give you a deal or something like that. So it's very hard to say what the price is going to be. The new polycience is going to have the same safety
+
+[10:58] system, as the old one did, plus a float, which I never was a big fan of float, the
+
+[11:03] float. so the float is basically in there. So in case your water runs low, the float drops and turns off the circulator. I've never been a giant fan of floats because it just seems like it's another thing that can fail as opposed to having the strap on. There's a scrap on. There's a strap on thermometer, you know, a temperature
+
+[11:22] sensor on the heating element itself, such that it goes over temp. It will shut the equipment off. So I guess Philip, I guess enough people wanted to float plus that safety system. So he put it in. Um, and uh, it's kind of, it has a smaller pump than the, than the $800 one. So it's going to have a reduced capacity on the note of capacity, by the way. Capacity is one of those things that you can't really ever listen to what anybody
+
+[11:47] says unless they're extremely specific about what they mean by capacity.
+
+[11:52] So your capacity is going to be limited by the wattage. There's 2 things that limit your capacity. One is your ability to circulate water. That is rarely the limit, except for in very large tanks or in viscous fluids like oils, which I wouldn't necessarily be circulating with these guys
+
+[12:08] anyway. So the pop output is not usually the limit on your capacity.
+
+[12:16] Usually the limit on your capacity is the wattage. And that said, also, when you're judging capacity, the question is not how many liters of
+
+[12:26] liquid. It's how many liters of liquid, plus product, at what temperature in a vessel with what kind of
+
+[12:34] insulation? So there's so many, uh, there's so many variables, but the physics are what the physics are, and you can figure out, uh, how
+
+[12:42] much, uh, wattage, roughly, wattage you need with some back of the envelope calculations. So for me, the main the main thing is, when I was talking to WePop, the the new circulator, the Namaku is,
+
+[12:53] you know, it has a smaller capacity, and it's designed to have a smaller capacity, a 750 watts, and their feeling is, is
+
+[13:00] it's enough wattage to get away with most of the things that you're going to want to do in your house, but they opted to have a more powerful pump, whereas Philip was like, I don't care about the
+
+[13:08] pump. Uh, but I want to keep the same waters because I don't actually know why, uh, why the
+
+[13:13] namaku, why they took the waters down to 750. Weepop told me once, but I can't remember what his explanation was because not, I mean, it could have been fitting it into the package because it's a very thin stick package. And Namuku also is very small, right? And we haven't played with it yet. I mean, small is good because small means it takes up less space in your bath. Anytime you can take up less space in your bath, it's probably a good thing. Um, just because that space you can't be cooking products in. Um, so that might be an advantage for the Namaku, but really I hesitate to make any recommendations until I play with them, play with both of them. I will say this. Uh, it is an extremely exciting time uh, to uh, be a cook because now almost anyone, you know, look, it's still expensive, you know, even even if it's $350, it's not like I'm going to go out, you know, you're not going to go out and
+
+[14:00] buy, like buy them like their potato chips and pretzels. But it's in the realm of things that many, many people buy. I think it's a huge, there's a huge price difference between 800 bucks and
+
+[14:09] uh, 400 bucks or 350 bucks, right? Yeah, it's big difference. Big difference. I mean, Nastasia might actually consider purchasing one instead of other, uh, yes. I said, you might consider actually purchasing one. Yes, yeah, we will leave it at that. We'll leave it. We'll just we'll just leave it right there. Yeah? Okay. so you're right. That's pretty much, I mean, that's all there is to say about that, yeah. All right. When we get it, we will tell. When we get it, when we get it, we will tell the pros and cons of each. One, if you know me, uh, uh, my, one of the main problems is, is, uh, I'm going to find it difficult to lie. So, Ray? I mean, like, you know, it's I mean, I can lie about many things, but not about recommending equipment. It's a weird thing. And oh, and I know I'm not teaching a class this week as far as I know I'm doing it. You're doing TV next week. So we get intensive? Last week of September. Is that next week? No, 2 weeks from now. Oh, so I will be in, I will be in, it might class, is the class full? I don't know. I don't know if you want to come here, spout off some crazy stuff. It's not, actually. It's actually the best course that we've ever taught. I mean, like, not the, it's good, course, for people who want to learn low temperature and sous vide. I'll put it this way. I'm proud of what we do in the course because we can, we can do things that are very difficult for you to do in either a home or a restaurant
+
+[15:30] kitchen just for time and space reasons. Anyway, so I guess we're teaching that in a couple of weeks last week of September. So that's when I'll be in there, Ron. I'll be in tomorrow but I'll be dealing with the Pepsi people. Okay. Should we take a 1st one, right? Signing books, yeah. Signing books? What books? Anyway. Techniques. Coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[15:53] You're listening to Misa Mores by Jack Insley.
+
+[17:11] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the
+
+[17:14] HeritageRadioNetwork.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[17:23] restorateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. And welcome back. Okay, we have a question in from Paul who says, for ethical dietary reasons, I've been baking croissant with
+
+[17:51] margarine. They turn out very nice, but I'm wondering if I can get something closer to authentic if I adjust the fat in
+
+[17:56] the, in quotes, because it's not butter, butter block. The 2 main problems. I think I face is that one, as far as I can tell, it's impossible to get unsalted margarine. And two, I'm guessing margarine, I am guessing margarine has a higher water content compared to butter. Secondary issues could include altered melting point issues with saturated fat or transfant content, et cetera. I'm wondering if it might be possible to approximate something closer to unsalted butter in water content and reduce salt levels by making a mixture of margarine and vegetable shortening, or possibly trying to match the water content by evaporating moisture from margarine, but likely increasing the salt levels on a per volume
+
+[18:33] level. If it matters, the dough is relatively wet, moderately enriched with a small amount of fat and some sugar, given a very quick mix with low gluten development, but then spends 12 plus hours in the fridge for a rise in
+
+[18:44] a developed gluten flavor. Any thoughts, thanks. Paul. Okay. So, um, Yeah, here's the thing. First of all, you know, you have to be making sure anyway that you're using a margarine that has, uh, um,
+
+[18:56] that if you, if you don't want the butter, I'm assuming you don't want, assuming you want vegan, right? That's the assumption, right? And so, uh, you know, there are, and therefore, I'm sure you're aware of the fact that many margarines contain, um, milk, um, actual milk in
+
+[19:13] the, for flavor in it, milk products in it for flavor. Some are artificially butter flavored, and I'm sure you can get just a plastic fat without the flavoring,
+
+[19:21] but... Right or wrong. Great, yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. I did some preliminary poking around. It's been a long time since I've researched, um, margarine, um, because I do eat
+
+[19:35] dairy, and so I'm a margarine. I'm a hater, right? I'm a hater. But the key thing, uh, I don't know, so, uh, margarines, I guess, can have
+
+[19:46] different, uh, different water levels in it, but the key thing about a margarine. So butter is what butter is, right? It's butter, it's butter fat, right? From cream. And the recipes that we have are written around the properties of
+
+[20:02] butter. So butter is actually less than ideal for certain things. For instance, if you're going to do, if you're going to do puff paste, and you have to keep the dough temperatures relatively proper. Otherwise, the butter gets too hard relative to the dough, right? Because butter isn't necessarily the best actual physical form for everything you're going to do. So when you make a margarine, you get to choose a lot of the exact properties that make it important
+
+[20:28] for, so there's table margarines, right? And those are meant to spread mostly like butter. And the main characteristic that you're looking at other than like nowadays, they're much better at it. Like margarine used to taste really Christ awful because they couldn't deodorize it properly and it just tasted of awfulness because the way you make the margarine, is you press
+
+[20:47] any old crud, meaningless it's specified, but you press any old crud and you extract oil from,
+
+[20:53] um, you extract oil from things like seeds, soybeans, whatever. Usually with some crazy solvent, you know, some sort of like light petroleum fraction, which you then get rid of. You're then left with oil, plus gum, and sludge, and oil breakdown products, which are like one of the things they can do with, so if there's too many free fatty acids in there, they add
+
+[21:16] lie to it, and that turns it into soap, and then they wash the soap away. So there's, and by the way, none of this I'm against. I am not saying I'm against that. I'm definitely pro, you know, that kind of a technique. So then they wash away all the impurities and then they usually deodorize it. When they're going to make margarine, they sometimes do the deodorant deodorization step at the end. So then you're left with these raw inputs that have various different fatty acid profiles. And then they hydrogenate them to different levels and different amounts and different ways to obtain, um, different properties of fat, and the most important property of fat, other than the taste of it, and
+
+[21:51] how it crystallizes, how a particular fat crystallizes, because that really affects its property is quite severely. But the, you know, the other really important thing is called the SFI, which is
+
+[22:01] the, uh, what does it actually stand for? Geez, solid fractions index, I think, or solids. Anyway. So what it is, is it's a chart, and you can see it. And it's how much of a given fat is liquid at any given temperature because because the fats are not one unitary type of thing.
+
+[22:24] They don't have a definite melting point, right? And that's why butter gets softer as it gets warmer. It doesn't just instantly melt. It gets soft, it gets goes from hard to soft to melted because there's a range of
+
+[22:36] different, you know, compounds in there that have different melting points. And so the, there's the, where that curve, the melting curve is, and then there's the slope of that curve determines uh, over what temperatures fat
+
+[22:49] is is plastic, is workable. So, the good news about margarines is that they can choose that exact profile for baking.
+
+[22:59] And the profile they choose for baking is different depending on the application that you're
+
+[23:05] going to use. So they make ones called baker's margarine that are specifically designed to not be too
+
+[23:12] hard, so they don't rip through layers of your product, but also not to melt at all until you are baking with them.
+
+[23:21] So, uh, you know, and there's different ones depending on exactly how the dough is supposed to work. So, you know, in the very industrial scale, they'll have a different one for a puff pastry than they will for a Danish or for
+
+[23:31] croissant, because they work slightly differently. Uh, so, because a lot depends on you, the idea of being not to tear the dough when you're rolling it out. and what you're looking for. But the most important thing with those margarines is that they not melt out into the dough and cause adhesion of the layers to themselves before they're baked out.
+
+[23:48] Like, that's the key thing. So there's that in conjunction with the not ripping. Um, on water content. I wasn't able to find the app. So, oh, so I looked this morning trying to find anyone that sold these varieties of margarines to the
+
+[24:06] public. Like I looked on Amazon for Baker's margarine, I couldn't find it. Chet Baker, the musician, had a song called margarine. I was able to find that. You can download that for ¢99. But I wasn't able to find less than £50 of Baker's margarine and no one that kind of
+
+[24:20] stole, uh, to, you know, just to, you know, normally to us. So if anyone out there knows a source of baker's margarine. Um, I'd appreciate it. And so, uh, if you, I mean, and they're technically highly superior products, they just, you know, they also add a lot of other stuff like,
+
+[24:35] uh, like oils and whatnot. you know, sorry, like butter, fake butter flavor and whatnot. Uh, now, as for your question, I wasn't able to find the optimum water content uh, for uh, the margin, but, uh, and there's a question as to what the optimum water content is in Adilla like this, because after all, it's the water vaporizing, uh, you know, and
+
+[24:59] and in the thing as it melts that is causing the expansion to break the different flaky sections of the dough
+
+[25:06] apart. in addition to analy croissant. Obviously, it's also leavened. So, uh, yes, and I know I've known for years that people
+
+[25:14] want, and they love the low water, uh, European butters, for instance, like in the supermarket, you can buy plugra for this kind of
+
+[25:22] thing, but I never have actually done the test of how important the water content is.
+
+[25:26] I'm loath to suggest adding, although you know what? Crisco makes some flaky freaking stuff. Although, when I'm making pie crust with Crisco. It's a different kind of flaky, and there is a lot of fat melting in because I'm not a believer in hyper cold, everything when you're making pie
+
+[25:43] crust. I follow the kind of Jeffrey Steingarden through Marion Cunningham pie crust recipe of hand rubbing and not worrying about the temperature too
+
+[25:49] much, and no one complains about my pie crust, but you do get some bleed out of the fat into the flour in that.
+
+[25:57] And so, and I use lard for that, which you could act, you know, which is actually
+
+[26:00] more, when I use lard, it's actually colder because lard is much more difficult to work with than shortening is. But when I use Crisco shortening. Uh, it, you know, it works. So you know what? It might work. If you really want to lower the water content, beat some Crisco into the margarine,
+
+[26:13] like roll it in, like, you know, whip it and then flatten it and make it into a block, it could work. But I mean, most margarines, I think, are rocking in around the 20% water range in that area, 17 to
+
+[26:24] 20, and most butters are also in that same range. So I, you know, I doubt you're going to have, uh, I doubt, I doubt. I mean, I doubt the water is an issue, but maybe it is. What I would recommend is not obviously melting the margarine to try and get the water out of it because then you're breaking the
+
+[26:42] emulsion, right? Right? Fair? Okay. What do you think? Is that a valid answer? Did I give anything of use? Sometimes I can't tell whether I've said any freaking thing useful at all. I can't tell. Okay. Michael from Oakland writes in again and now like making and now I feel bad. He's like, hey, guys, welcome back from Columbia, following up on the Lucuma question from a few weeks ago. Again, I make a cocktail with Lucomo, is looking for an easier to locate substitute. Something I could find in a local market, specialty market, or Latin market. You asked me to tell you whether I was concerned with a taste or feel or something else. The taste I care about. Thanks for looking into this. And so I don't have a decent. I don't have a... Does anyone out there, please help us out. Help us out. Get us a good source of Lucuma and or Lucuma substitute, because the closest thing I have is Canistell, because I never actually worked with Lucuma directly. I work with Canistell. Delicious, right? That's a good product. Yeah. Uh, so, so I've never uh, had to source it. So someone help me out, help us out. Yes, please help us out. With that, let's go to our 2nd commercial break cooking issues.
+
+[28:00] This one's called the Paper Jam. Also by Jack Insley. But erotic. But erotic. But erotic. But erotic, but erotic.
+
+[28:20] But not it. That erotic.
+
+[29:11] Got Stitcher? Heritage radio network is on it, so get it. Stitcher is an award-winning provider of news and talk radio for your mobile phone. Stitcher Smart radio, the smarter way to listen to radio. We're back. We're back. Cooking issues. Joe, do you remember, did we answer the question about raw milk safety last week? Or 2 weeks ago? Oh, hmm. Yeah, just me check that out. I'm going to answer another question in the meantime. Greetings, Nastasia, Dave, Dave, that's me. Jack and Joe. From Kevin Scott in San Jose, by the way, San Jose, visited San
+
+[29:52] Jose where other sister school is for the ICC. And you, it is almost impossible to find anything to
+
+[29:59] freak and eat in San Jose after midnight. You know what I'm saying? You ever, I mean, you ever go hang out in San Jose? No, you're a southern California. Good, but my college was near that. It's in Stanford. How close is that to San Jose? Pretty close. to San Francisco. Really? Yeah, but no, I never ate there. Anyway, apparently like somewhere there's like the late night taco stands that are supposed to be good, but no one could point us
+
+[30:22] out. They're like, man. So, you know, I was starving one night in San Jose. So Kevin, if you can hook us up with the next time I'm in San Jose, where I should get good food after midnight, I would appreciate it. Because there's like 8000000000 people in San Jose, right? It's like a giant freaking city. It's huge Huge. Okay, so there's got to be good late 90s. It's not possible for them not to be. Anyway, uh, Kevin Wright. I'm thinking about buying a new 3 liter tabletop centerfuge for random mad science food hackery. What should I be looking for, refrigerated or not? Any manufacturers to avoid swinging bucket or fixed rotor? I'd like to be able to try out things like making nut and vegetable butters, tomato water, and clarifying stocks and juices. Our tabletop model is going to have enough oomph to handle this range of things. And while I'm asking questions, have you ever experimented with meat stock clarification in a centrifuge? I can imagine being able to get a beautifully clear stock, but is there flavor loss? I don't know if you, uh, I don't, uh, if you don't know, I can do that experiment myself once I've acquired my centrifuge. Okay, what should you be looking for? Refrigeration is nice. Um, I mean, I love having refrigerator on my centrifuge, but that said, and there are some products that it's very, it's very helpful to have, but it adds a,
+
+[31:36] obviously they need more power and it's a lot more space and the unit is a lot heavier. So, you know, if you don't need the refrigeration, if you don't want it, you can get a much more compact system without refrigeration.
+
+[31:48] So, And there are ways to get around the refrigeration. For instance, putting your buckets in the freezer before you load them so that they're cold. Um, X, Y, X, Y, Z. The, your product does heat up quite a bit in a centrifuge as it's spinning. And it's because of the incredible friction, um, that's just generated by the, by the, you know, this thing spinning around in the air. It gets quite warm. So we're talking the product that goes in pretty close to room temperature, can come out at body temperature really at the end of like a 15 minute span or something like that. So if you have a product that you, um, where the temperature is critical, for instance, butter or spinning cream, uh, into this kind of butter mass, which is something that Wiley does at
+
+[32:36] the WD 50 or has done. Um, then refrigeration is probably a good idea. Another thing is because of the immense friction, centrifuge can chill very, very rapidly. So one of the advantages that I think of having a refrigerated unit is, um, you know,
+
+[32:52] we'll do juices. When we're doing juices, I usually blend, uh, you know, whatever fruit it is in a vita prep, along with the
+
+[32:59] enzyme, until it's slightly above water, uh, body temperature. That means the enzyme works almost instantaneously and we can spin right away. I don't have to wait for the enzyme to break down stuff at lower fridge temperatures. Now, if you have a refrigerated centrifuge, um, it chills that product as it's spinning extremely rapidly down to refrigerator temperatures, just because there's such
+
+[33:20] good, uh, heat transfer, because of the immense amount of, uh, of uh, airflow that you're getting across the uh, buckets when you're when you're spinning. So refrigeration, if you can afford it in terms of space and in terms of money,
+
+[33:35] then I would get it. I mean, that's that's that. Um, Whether or not any manufacturers to avoid, I really only have experience uh, with uh, Sorval, larger Sorval units and with uh, what was that Japanese one? Do you remember the name of that? That thing was awesome. No, I don't. That thing was amazing. I love that scene. I know. I think it was awesome. Or, uh, and the one in Japan, which I can't even remember, was a Japanese manufacturer, and I don't think it's shipped here to the
+
+[34:02] US. But the awesome thing about that, other than the fact that it was awesome. It was very compact, right? It had a plexi top and there's some American, there's some manufacturers here that are, uh, I forget who, like
+
+[34:13] Central App. I forget who makes those, but there's a couple manufacturers with Plexi tops, and they're kind of fun because you can get a strobe tack and shoot on the thing and then, you know, see the product as it's
+
+[34:23] clarifying. It's not really necessary, but it is fun. But the also thing about that Japanese one was that the, the, the buckets, the aluminum buckets had stainless steel, thin inserts that went into it that you can just use over and over and
+
+[34:36] they were just really, really nice unit. And really quiet, smooth. Anyway. So most of my experience has been with joans. Uh, and the Xuan is nice, is a nice unit, but it's, they're older because the company's out of business. It was bought by thermo, which makes still makes a lot of centrifuges. And then, and then the company was retired. The brand name was retired. Wiley uses a headache. He seems to enjoy that. And I think Tony Corneliaro in England also uses
+
+[35:05] a headache and he likes it. Uh, I think Headache is out of Germany. But, you know, all these guys. Here's what I would I would say. I wouldn't avoid a manufacturer in a new centrifuge. I would avoid certain types. So, um, I don't think you need as, look, here's the other thing. So the question is fixed rotor versus swinging bucket. Fixed rotor is going to be better for things like peea
+
+[35:33] butter, uh, and whatnot, just because of the way layers are formed in a fixed uh, angle rotor. Uh, however, uh, you know, most of the fixed angle rotors,
+
+[35:44] you 1st of all, you can put a fixed angle rotor into a 3 liter benchtop thing, but you're not going to get 3 liters out of it.
+
+[35:50] You're going to get a much smaller yield. And to buy a unit that can do 3 liters, that's fixed
+
+[35:56] router, is going to be a much, much larger unit, and you're talking a lot more money. For bang for buck and most useful all around, go with the swinging bucket
+
+[36:07] rotors, because that's the clarification machine. It works fine on nut butters. you know, how many, how many, you know, things of nut butter have we done in a, in a, like countless? Countless. too many. Nut milks, things of that nature. Uh, I've never actually done the peea butter recipe, but I think that that, uh, when Maxine Billet came to the school. He did it in our centrifuge, and it seemed to work fine. Um, but the fixed angle rotors are good for certain, they're good for certain things. And I do do some fixed angle work. Again, like all of my recipes that I work with are built around that centrifuge and around its capabilities.
+
+[36:44] So I spend most of my time thinking of recipes that fit within those parameters. So there's many things I'm sure that you can do that, you know, you can't. Now, on stock. Um, I've never clarified uh, stock in uh, in regular stock in a centrifuge, and I'm assuming that to do it, you're going to require a lot of
+
+[37:06] G's, unless you do things like break down the gelatin in it, or add other
+
+[37:10] fining agents to it. And then I'm assuming you'd be able to do it. But your question is, is that you're not sure if there's going to be flavor loss. There is always flavor loss and a clarification step. Let me be clear on this. There is always a flavor loss and a clarification step. The centrifuge by far is the least impactive technique to clarify that
+
+[37:32] I've ever used. So, um, you know, agar clarification strips out certain things and centrifuge strips out certain things, but things like agar, gel and clarification strip out a lot more. Egg whites strip out a lot more. And how you clarify also determines how much is stripped out. So, I mean, even within something like the centrifuge is what I mean to say. So, I'll give you the, for instance, uh, we do gin and juice is one of the recipes we do at the bar, and uh, we clarify, I used to clarify grapefruit juice using free spell with Agar. So, you know, you use 2 grams per liter, grapefruit juice. You set a light agar gel, you freeze it for, you know, tard
+
+[38:13] overnight and then you let it thaw into big pans. And so, you know, we used to do, you know, leaders and leaders and leaders. Like, remember that time we did, like, for the MOMA? We did a party for like 1500 or more people at the MOMA, and it was just like gallons and gallons. We filled all, we took every hotel pan in the school and filled it with frozen grapefruit juice. And Lex ants. remember that? Yeah. Wait, we squeezed them. Yeah, and your yield is lower. But the grapefruit juice you get from that technique, freestyle, is extremely clean and sweet because a lot of the bitterness of the grapefruit is stripped out, which is, I guess,
+
+[38:47] Neringian. And it's stripped out in the Agar clarification process. So when you when you make gin and juice using agar clarification, free thaw, or quick. You do not need to add any simple syrup at
+
+[39:01] all to the recipe. Okay? When you do centrifugal clarification on grapefruit juice, where we use an enzyme to break down the
+
+[39:09] pectin, and then some very light finding agents, quesosol and qaida sand, which
+
+[39:14] are designed for wine clarification. More of that inherent bitterness remains. Some of it's still stripped. It doesn't taste like fresh grapefruit, you know, like, you know, whole grapefruit juice, but it, uh, much more remains, such that I do have to add a small amount of simple syrup to that recipe to get it to
+
+[39:29] work. And so, yes, there is a stripping of flavor. Sometimes that stripping of flavor is good. For instance, I wouldn't want the full bitterness of grapefruit juice in my gin and juice because I think it would
+
+[39:39] be overpowering with the gin and with the carbonation because we carbonated all. So, uh, there's always uh, flavors that are removed, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing. With the stock, you know, whenever I clarify stock, I usually I'm doing a
+
+[39:54] bunch and so I do regular freestyle clarification on stock, just water it
+
+[39:58] down so there's not too much gelatin in there. But, like I say, you could use a finding agent in conjunction with an enzyme called
+
+[40:05] correlace, which breaks down, uh, correlace breaks down, uh, gelatin. The problem with, and we've done tests of breaking down the gelatin using just meat, meat, you know, proteus
+
+[40:16] stuff, basically, you know, papayine and other things that you can get as meat tenderizers. The problem being that when proteins are broken down into very small fragments,
+
+[40:24] some of those fragments can turn bitter and unpleasant to small polypeptides, and correlace is an enzyme that's designed specifically to break down gelatin into flavorless
+
+[40:34] polypeptide. So it breaks them down in such a way that they don't cause bitter and
+
+[40:40] off flavors. And that stuff is freaking amazing, unfortunately. But you take jellied stock, hardcore jellied stock, you add a couple of drops of
+
+[40:48] correlates and the thing melts out. It melts, it melts, even if it's cold. Book, gone. And then you can reduce stock. We've done ridiculous things, like take a gallon of stock and taking it down to, you know, like
+
+[41:00] just like almost until it's solid and it doesn't set when it cools off. So we use that for like these incredibly intense kind of beef stock things. It's amazing. But anyway, I would get a hold of correlates except for I have not been able to. So if Chris, you know, if Chris at modern his pantry can get his hands on some correlation enzyme, I would buy the hell out of
+
+[41:19] that because that's good stuff. met him. Yeah, we did. We met him. What was it again? Saturday. Oh, yeah, we did the heritage radio. Have we talked about that? Sort of here. You think about what to say about that because I think I got one more question I got to hit before we get kicked out of here. And here it is. Confused in Houston, Co, confusing Houston miles, right, Sand? Dear, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. I've been researching hydrocoloids. Isn't my Casey, Casey and Whistling, then? No, like that. You don't like it? I've been researching hydrocoloids and in particular, methocellulos. Since there are a bunch of different kinds of this stuff, how can one tell which is right for a particular purpose? For example, if I wanted to make a hot melting jelly, which type of
+
+[41:59] methocellulose would I use? And what about for stabilizing a foam? Thanks in advance. Okay. This is a great, this is a great thing, and a great question. And a lot of this goes back to some original problems I had with recipes printed online, and also with Faran's
+
+[42:20] text stories line. Now, the products in text stores, they're all they're all good products. They're all high quality products, you know, but the problem is, is that they don't necessarily tell you what's in them. So, for instance, in Faran's methyl, in Faranza, gelan, it's just called gelan. It's not just Jelann. It's a mixture of 2 different kinds of gelan, high acel gelan, and low acel gelan. That's, I guess, some sort of compromise that you can use to make fluid gels, but also has a somewhat gelatin characteristic when it's used as a gel in its own right. And I'm pretty sure, uh, it's been a 1000000000 years since I've used his Jalen, but I think it's basically, uh, 25% of
+
+[42:58] the uh, high acel Jalen, which is the stretchy weird one, and 75% of the low acel, which is the
+
+[43:04] brittle, clear, you know, one that's good for fluid gels. So on methyl cell, I used to know it one time, and I've forgotten, what is the what they're actually using in that? Now, there are many different producers of metal cellulose. Metal cellulose is one of the few unnatural hydrocolloids that we
+
+[43:21] use, and by that, I mean, the metal cellulose does not occur in nature. It's a derived product from cellulose, you know, from like, you know,
+
+[43:30] manufacturer of cotton and things like this. And um, So they're not naturally occurring, but they're not, that doesn't make them evil. It just means they don't occur in nature. But there are a zillion different kinds. There's straight metocellulose, there's hydroxypropyl methyl cellulose, there's a bunch of different ones. The ones that, and there are several manufacturers of it. The ones that I use and have used are manufactured by Dao. And Dow, Dow's brand name is Methocell, right? M-E-T-H-O. I can't spell all that. S-E-E-L, methosell. And they and those are the ones that most chefs write their recipes around Dow Methosel. The good thing about Dow is that Dow has online or they used to. And if they don't, I can email or put on my thing, a bunch of technical documents on exactly what they all do.
+
+[44:22] So any recipe that you get, you should try to convert it into the type of
+
+[44:27] methosell that you want. The interesting property that you allude to with a methacell that it has is that it's one of the very few things that as it's heated becomes a gel.
+
+[44:37] Gels as it's heated and melts as it's cooled. This has led to a lot of people, including Wiley, and ideas in food, and, you know, Nicholas
+
+[44:44] Kurti would have, if he hadn't died before he figured out what Methosel was. Try and make things like hot ice cream, things that are solid when they're hot and then you put it in your mouth and it melts. kind of an inverse thing of ice cream. The problem is I think it's a fundamentally flawed idea, making hot ice cream
+
+[44:59] because, like, I can go into it later. I don't have time to go into why I think hot ice cream is a fundamentally flawed idea. But, uh, so it's very interesting product because of this way that it sets as a tea to dance because it becomes less soluble as it's heated, drops partially out of solution forms of gel.
+
+[45:14] Now, there's wide variety of ones in the
+
+[45:18] methocell line, and not all of them form good gels, but they're arranged in the order of how they
+
+[45:24] gel. So the hardest gelling one, but it actually, you know, squeezes out a lot of water is the SG series.
+
+[45:31] And those stands for super gelling. And those hard geling ones also gel at the lowest temperature. The next series up and it's very, very, you know, you know, not that hot, like 120 Fahrenheit or something like that starts chilling. I forget the actual numbers. The next is the A series. So those are the 2 ones that are mainly used for gels and things like noodles that set when you squeeze them into broths and all those things. That's what those things, those things excel at that kind of application. they're used for that. The other series. I don't really use the K series that much, but it's a higher thing, the series, other series that I use, the E-series was discontinued. The e-series is good at film forming and so people are making crackers and biscuits out of them. I don't particularly like metal cell e-series. But the one that I use the most is the F series. And that's the one that you use for meringues and for whipping. So that's the one that's a good whipping agent. Okay. So the SG and the A series are the ones that you use for gelling, and the F series is the one that you use for like those meringues that you dehydrate and they stay nicely. The other thing to worry about on methocell, Dow brand methocell is the number that is after it. So there's F 50, for instance, is the one that you want to use for whipping things. That 50 is, and all of the numbers after a methyl cell, are measure of the viscosity of the product as it's made. So 50 is, it's in almost an arbitrary units, but it's a certain concentration of
+
+[46:56] methocell has 50 times a viscosity of water at a certain country, bubble, bop. Okay? So there's F 50. But there's, for instance, you can get one like SG, 16 M, right? And here's what's freaking confusing. And I'll leave you guys with this because they're going to kick us off the air in a second. But here's what's confusing. They use some combination of Arabic and Roman freaking numerals,
+
+[47:17] right? So SG 16 N, right, is actually an SG super gel with a viscosity of 16,000 because the M stands for 1000 in Roman numerals.
+
+[47:30] They also have some C ones that are like 700. And so it's very confusing. Unless you just remember you got to choose the series you want. And then after you choose the series you want, you got to choose the viscosity that you want it to be. And the viscosity is going to determine also how hard the gel is going to be at the end because it's probably a longer, they're probably longer, you know, units, so they're probably a harder
+
+[47:50] gel, and also the viscosity of the stuff as you're working. I hope that helps cooking issues.
+
+[48:01] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Get it straight. Fishes, fish, vodka.
+
+[48:39] Oh, you dirty rat.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local,
+
+[0:06] national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:35] I'll see you in my dreams. Jack, is that our new, is that us now? No, no. not. That's just, that's plexophonic, but, you know, we, uh, at Heritage
+
+[0:47] Radio here, we're going all original, all licensed music. So the cooking issues theme is no longer. So, okay, so like no longer as of now. No longer as of now. So basically, okay, so for those of you that don't know how this works, right? As with all other things in life, theoretically, if you use on the
+
+[1:04] air, in some sort of a program, a song, you were supposed to pay for it, right? You're supposed to pay, what is it, BMI or ass cap, whatever it is, right? Right, Jack? And we decided we didn't want to do that because we were a nonprofit. Yeah, and we're so cool and we have so many friends that make music. Yeah? All right. So now that I know that we're on the air. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live. A little bit late today from the back of Roberta's even later than normal, actually. Yeah. From the back of Roberta's Pizzeria, Bushwick, Brooklyn, here in the studio, Witness Dodger, they Amber Lopez and Jack Insley, our intrepid engineer, and what is your title over there at the
+
+[1:40] radio? Grand Vizier. That's a cool title. Executive producer. Executive producer. So they're call me these days. By the way, everyone wants to know what Nastasia's title is with the organization, and by the way, no one even knows what the organization means. No one knows what company we're talking about, or what the hell we're talking about. Cooking issues, not really a business, right? It says? Right? So it's hard to have a title there, but you have one. She has the same title across anything she works for. And basically, you can treat her however you want so long as her title is heir parent. I felt like that needed applause. Yeah, well, you know, I don't really know what, like, I said, when she said this is what she wanted her title to be, and that was, you know, her only condition for working, really, strangely enough. I said, well, uh, like air parent or what? She's like nah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Rice does? Yeah, true, true story. Okay, call your questions live, 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So anyway, just got back from London. Mary old Mary old England action, right? Uh, where uh, I was with Harold McGee. We were at the kind of the bar this year's, you know, I guess last year, the year, 2 years ago, whatever it was, the bar wedding of the
+
+[2:53] century was Audrey Saunders of Peggy and Robert Hess of, you know, he writes about, you know, bars of, you know, bar kind of master, writer,
+
+[3:03] thinker, cocktail boy, I think is his blog, right? The name of this blog? I don't know. Anyways, so that was the wedding of the bar wedding of the century. This year's, well, the American bar wedding in the century. And this one is, uh, you know, Rhea, formerly of Prono
+
+[3:17] Ricard, and good friend, and uh, Tony Konoyaro of 69 Colbrook Row in Zetter Townhouse in uh, in the London there. Some of my favorite bars in the world. So we went over. I should say we, I went over, and Harold McGee also went over, Nastasia was like, no, crap on that. And okay, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. do I know? Anyway, I went over to London for the wedding. But the wedding wasn't in London. was in the Cotswolds, which was beautiful. But in order to write off the entire trip, Harold. Harold... Yeah, you know, what are you going to do? Harold McGee and I went to the Brogdale collection again in Kent Favisham, which is, for those of you that don't know, where the United Kingdom
+
+[3:53] stores all of its fruit. Now, did I mention this on the last show that I was going to go there? Did I talk about it in general? Just quick, quick refresher, quick refresher. So when you're storing fruit, you store it in the form of a tree, right? And so you go there and they actually have all the trees. Now, if you go to the United States, it's fruit repositories, which run by the good
+
+[4:13] old, it's kind of a governmental plus university effort, right? So our apples are run in, you know, in conjunction between Cornell University and United States
+
+[4:21] government, and pears and small fruits are in Corvallis, where we're going to go to, are you going to that Stas or no? No, it is. Oh, to Portland Cocktail Week. I hope to go to Corvallis, which is where the other ones are stored. So here's what I've learned about American fruit collections. They really don't care. They don't care. Like no one goes there to visit it, right? And you can go in there and go absolutely nutty ape crap on the trees and eat as much fruit as you want with almost no supervision. This is what I found. Whereas in the Brogdale, which is in Kent, it's not the case. They they, they don't let you just go, go crazy. Now Nastasia and I, was it, 2 years ago? We went and we went, we went nutty bunks in the, in the orchards and we were able to eat whatever we want. No one gave us any sort of guff because there was literally nobody there. This year, it was pretty hardcore, and we had to sneak around and we got kicked out of the orchards like 3 times.
+
+[5:12] Yeah. But here's another thing, sad to say, for all of you English folk out there. This is like, and I asked some fruit growers there. This is the worst season for taste for British apples and whatnot in
+
+[5:26] many, many, many years because they had not enough sunlight and more than usual, less
+
+[5:32] an average sun, more than usual rain. And the apples just stars were not. They weren't bueno. I tasted a bunch. This listen, I love the Brogdale. There's no offense to the Brogdale, but the apples just were no love, right? And I had apples. I tasted apples that I knew exactly what they tasted like, American apples, plus English apples that I knew what they tasted like. So coxes, I tasted cocks, empires, all these other things. of them, none of them, none of them good. I also learned something else. The English prefer their fruit a little more sour than we do. Sour. There was a, speaking of sour, there was like, there's no way she doesn't know anything. So she's not listening. But there's this woman on the tour with us, right? Because I had to take this tour to get out there. So we had to sit around. All these people. They care about stuff that Harold and I really just don't care about. Like the value of the trees as trees. Harold and I look, look, this is an apple tree. This is a pear tree. Its value lies in the fruit, in the fruit, the fruit. And then they're all like, the horticultural, blah, blah, blah. Nastasia hates this kind of talk. Some people care about that. But why would you care about that? It's the fruit. In other words, if an apple tree looked like a cup of water and yet it made delicious apples. Wouldn't you be like apples? No? She's talking about the value of the tree that produces the fruit. That's so delicious, right? No, she didn't care about the deliciousness. First of all, the lady had no taste. I picked an apple off of a tree that was so horribly underripe. It tasted like you were sucking on raw starch, and because apples, before they're ripe, they taste very starchy. And they're usually very acidic and they have very little roundness. So this was, this tasted of starch and malic acid and nothing else. And it was overly hard and, you know, like kind of teeth breaking as you chew into it. She loved it. She's like, this would be fantastic with the fine cheese. And I was like, I was like, this lady has to be an anomaly. And then I asked around, they're like, no, man. No, man. crazy, depressing. Anyway, call her. you were on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Johnny from Memphis again. How you doing? Doing all right. how you doing? Doing good. Thanks for the, uh, I'm, uh, suckling pig a few weeks ago. turned out good. It did. turned out well. Turned out good. I'm happy. I got another question for you. All right. I know that you don't need to, uh, the salt, uh, like a pork butt or brine a pork butt before you
+
+[7:51] sous vide it. Right. And if I was gonna, like, open it up like a book and put, uh, herbs, like, pichata
+
+[7:59] style, and then roll it up and sous vide it. I wouldn't need to brine it, right? Okay, so there's there's 2 ways to think about it. You don't need to, so brining does 2 things, 3 things, really. It, it, uh, it alters the protein so that they're less apt to get overcooked, right? And that's the reason why a lot of people do it when they're doing traditional cooking. It also, um, and that you don't need to do for sous vide. It not necessary. Two, they do it to flavor the meat. Right? And so for the flavor, you know, that's still necessary, if that's the flavor you want. But three, it also tends to firm up the meat a little bit and make it taste less like fresh meat. And that's okay in like a chicken, not okay in a piece of
+
+[8:49] steak, and then it's up to you in a piece of pork, whether that's okay or not. You know what I mean? See, uh, what called their pork? Oh. If I, if I have been trouble, uh, making like a roulade style, um, that, uh, putting some transflu terminates on it. Yep. And I know it likes gelatin, and if I make the roulade sous vide, and then
+
+[9:17] want to cuss the outside. Um, maybe I should use water and like a pesto spread instead of oil. Does that make it come apart the oil evening? Uh, okay, so, I mean, anytime that there is uh, oil in between, I mean, here's the thing. Some oil, I wouldn't go water base, it's just going to leak everywhere. I think the oil is not going to be too much of a problem. As long as there is some meat to meat contact, it's not going to be a problem. Which transportaminates are you using? Uh, either one, I'm adding gelatin if I'm using the RAM, uh, a couple
+
+[9:55] shapes. Um, and I use a GS, whichever. Yeah, you shouldn't need that. I mean, the RM has a casing as a binder. You shouldn't need to to, um, to add it. Um, I mean, if you were, if it wasn't sticking, I guess you could add some or that, you know, uh, I mean, I would, I would keep it, if you want to brine it beforehand, I would, you could just let it brine
+
+[10:18] itself based, salt it. You know what I mean? Then add the transcutaminates as a powder. I wouldn't go crazy on it. And then the question, is it going to, is it going to, what's going to happen if you put pusto on it? You need meat to meet contact. Do you know what I mean? You need the meat to meet contact. You could make a, you could make a gelatin, you could make a gelatin water herb slurry, and that sucker would glue up. You know what I'm saying? Uh... But I've dissolved the transclude, time a nice end of that and put it in the cryo back, get the air out. Uh, I would make the slurry with the gelatin. Let it, you know, cool down till it's not set, but, you know, like maybe starting to get thick, whisk the
+
+[11:06] transgutaminates into it, and then spread it on the thing and roll quick. Okay. That's what I would. All right. I appreciate you. All right, let us know. how it goes. I will. All right, thanks. Bye. Thanks a lot. bye So, stars, I didn't come across as too harsh on the on the on the Brits. It was just a bad year for them, right? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Okay. I like how the style just lies, so I get off her back. You were wonderful. You want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. I wanna know exactly what happened. Anyways. Okay, got a question in from Philip Lamont. Hello, Nastasia and Dave. I just saw your lecture at Harvard and loved it. Nice. Thank you. But they only published the one that we did together, right? I think the one I did for the students was actually stronger because it was just about, it was focused more on the students. So it was about the science and what was going on, you know? Um, okay, uh, Philip's question. I have a small question about chlorophyll. I've been making an herb mayonnaise lately and I can't get it to stay green longer than one night. I make an herb puree by blanching the herbs in salted water and icing to keep them cold. I blend those herbs in an ice blender with just enough cold oil. After
+
+[12:19] blending I add lemon juice or ascorbic acid. Then I add this to mayo via a robocoupe, which the subsequent mayo is made in. It is nice green, but not for long. Am I just screwed? It's an interesting question. I've never, uh, I've never, I haven't done enough tests with it to know 100%, but just kind of off the top of my
+
+[12:40] head and I went back and looked at some of the books that I, uh, that I, uh, you know, that I love, uh, to see what their recommendations were. Now, you specifically want an herb mayonnaise, i.e. you want the flavor of the herb in it and not just a green mayonnaise,
+
+[12:55] right? So what's most likely happening is, uh, you know, as most people know, there is a, um, there are, uh, there's an enzyme
+
+[13:04] in, in, in herbs and many plants called, uh, I forget what they're called, like polyphenol oxidases, I
+
+[13:09] think is what they're called. And they, when you break herbs or leaves or anything like that, apples. You release those enzymes that are otherwise locked up, such that they can interact with the rest of the juices from the cell,
+
+[13:25] right? Some of those things are phenols that get altered by the enzyme and then can kind of stick together and form colored particles,
+
+[13:34] right? Uh, and so that's what's happening. Now, there's a couple of things that inhibit those enzymes. One are antioxidants, ascorbic acid. So that's that's good. And 2 is heat. So if you heat an herb, blanch it, as you're doing, and salt it, blanching in salted water, by the way, is a good
+
+[13:54] idea because it means you're going to leak less of the color and stuff out of the herb. So blanching in salted water, very good, putting it into
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+[14:03] cold water to stop heating, which was actually break down the chlorophyll, which is a separate problem of browning. That's what happens when you overcook the vegetables, right? And then having ascorbic acid. These are all the things that I would do. So, but let's take a look specifically what you say here. You blanch the stuff in salted water, and then ice it, and then blend those in an ice blender with cold oil.
+
+[14:28] I don't think you really need to worry about the coldness of the oil and you don't need to worry about icing the blender. Okay? You're blending it with the oil there, I guess, to get the water oil stuff right so that when you add it to the mayonnaise, it's not going to break the emulsion. And that seems fine I guess. Um, lemon juice or ascorbic acid that you that you add afterwards also find. Um, and then add to the Mayo via a Robocoup. Here's what I would say. I wouldn't bother with the with the cold necessarily making it cold or icing the blender. Make sure you squeeze out the herbs after you blanch them to get rid of any of the stuff that's in them. I would take out stems. I would take out the stems, but I would also maybe use a different method. So you should go read, you should find, buy. Go to bookfinder.com and get the out of print book, uh, from Harold McGee, the curious cook, which I keep telling he has to bring back into uh, circulation. And he goes through an entire section in that book about keeping things
+
+[15:27] green and all the various different interesting ways he's trying to keep pesto and things, which is a similar problem, green. And so I definitely recommend, um, I definitely recommend reading that. But here's how I would probably do it. If I was going to use your technique. I would blanch in water. Uh, then I would, in this cold, you know, in the in the salted water, very salted water. Pull it out, shock it, squeeze it, to get all of the stuff out, then directly blend that without added
+
+[16:00] oil, with ascorbic acid right away. Boom. Then, uh, after you do that, I would add, if you wanted to, I would just start beating that
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+[16:08] into uh, mayonnaise, and then adding more oil is necessary to get the consistency back. I mean, that's that's what I would do. But also, I think one of your problems is, is that you are adding the solids. And it might be the solids in there that are causing the problem because when I looked at one of my favorite
+
+[16:27] all time cookbooks, which is James Peterson's sauces, which is a very, in an early 90s classic, it's
+
+[16:34] 1991, it came out, and it's one of my treasured books. And one of the sad things about cookbooks and cooking, you know, cookbook and thinking about books is there's lots of books, especially from that
+
+[16:45] era before cooking was wildly popular among a bunch of people that have just fallen by the wayside and aren't red enough.
+
+[16:52] So, you know, some of Bill Neal's old southern cookbooks are some of those books that aren't read enough these days. And, you know, James Peterson, obviously still famous, but I don't hear as many people talking about his sauces book, which I think is a classic as, you know, as much as they used
+
+[17:08] to now. When you do read the book, by the way, and I recommend you go get in the book. Uh, you do see some of the, the, some of the that time in it. So at that time, reduced cream sauces were extremely popular. And so there's a lot of reduced cream sauces in that book that you wouldn't necessarily see on a menu these days. But you just got to, you know, whenever you read a really good book like that, you have to filter it through the lens of the time in which it was written.
+
+[17:35] anyway. So I looked at what he had to say about
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+[17:39] it, and, you know, he calls it by its French name, Sauce Vert,
+
+[17:43] a green mayonnaise. And the way he makes it is to actually make a chlorophyll juice. I'll just read you what he says. Uh, sauce, green mayonnaise. This mayonnaise tastes the same as basic unflavored mayonnaise because of the way he makes it. Only the color is different. Stir one half of a teaspoon, 3 grams of chlorophyll into one cup of mayonnaise, and to extract
+
+[18:04] the chlorophyll from spinach leaves, C, uh, chapter 15, uh, butter sauces, and chlorophyll butter and whatnot. Don't worry, I have that for you, so I can read you that as well. If I can get my iPad to stop rotating on me. Uh, which I did test. I just test that. I test it. So I want to stay where I want it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Then, uh, so that's what that's what he says. You add the chlorophyll, and I'll talk about that in a second. He says mayonnaise can also be colored directly with the juice from spinach, watercress, or parsley. Now, here's the technique that's going to be important to you because I think this is how you should do it. Blanch the greens in a large pot of rapidly boiling salted water. Quickly rinse the greens in cold water, pat dry, and finally grind in a blender of food processor. Place the puree greens in the middle of the kitchen towel. Here's where he's doing something different from you and tightly wring the juice out into a bowl. This juice can then be used for coloring the mayonnaise. The puree can be combined directly with the mayonnaise and the sauce strained. So, and this think about this. This is the way that we make parsley oil, right? Even if you weren't to follow his directions and blanching. You can blanch in quotes, you can blanch herbs directly in oil, right? So you could take your oil, you could heat the oil with the herbs in it enough to kill the enzymes that are in the oil without ever putting it in the water.
+
+[19:22] Then blend it, and then strain out the particles. And that's how we make things like parsley oil and herb oil. So I would do that instead. I think it's the solids that you're dealing with, and you could also get rid of the water blanching step. The only issue here is you're going to have to sprinkle a little extra escorbic acid into the mayonnaise as it's being made, which should dissolve into the water phase and have it be fine. But I think that is the key there is that you're getting rid of the solids and using the juice from it, right? And the thing he's not saying is that you can blanch the herbs directly in oil, so long as you're careful. You don't want them to brown. You want the temperature to stay below right around or below the boiling point of water. And you can see the bubbles coming up from the herbs and you know when to kind of like mellow it out to stop it from getting to brown.
+
+[20:08] So for completeness sake, his recipe for chlorophyll butter, chlorophyll butter. This butter is good to have on hand for coloring. Hot sauce is green. Plain chlorophyll can be used for cold sauces. First prepare one ounce of chlorophyll. To do this, grind £one or 500 grams of raw spinach leaves with one half to one cup of water
+
+[20:27] and a blender of food processor. Pour the green paste in the center of a clean kitchen towel and twist it to extract the green liquid. Gently heat the green liquid in a saucepan until it coagulates. Strain the liquid through a strainer, line with a wet towel. So you got to do that quickly before it turns brown. And then gently scrape the chlorophyll away from the inside of the towel with a
+
+[20:44] spooner, a metal spatula. Chlorophyll can be stored in the refrigerator covered with a thin coating of oil, right? There you go, and prepare chlorophyll butter, work to chlorophyll with 4 times its volume of butter. So, I don't know whether any of this is helpful, but hopefully some of it is helpful. And let us go to our 1st commercial break.
+
+[21:07] You are listening to Bohemia, who submitted their music, as listeners of cooking issues on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[21:29] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York
+
+[21:38] City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[22:05] fete accompli for us to support heritage radio network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com. Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts like the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today. Hey Jack, what did he say? Did he say my idiot career, my whole idiot career? That's exactly what he said. Wow. that awesome? My whole idiot career. love that. Have you ever met Steve Jenkins? No, he yelled at me once from above the, you know, in the fairway, they have like a, right by the cheese thing. like an upper counter where like they can look down and see what's happening in the Cheeseland. He yelled at me from that once. What were you doing? I don't remember. I remember being yelled at. Oh man. Is he, is he, is he pleasant to deal with here at the radio show? He's great. I love Steve. I mean, I love I love what he has done for the cheese world. I thank goodness many days for his 88 career. He was one of the people who, you know, for those of you who don't know Steve Jenkins or for those of you that think that somehow everyone in America has always cared about cheese,
+
+[23:21] well, you're wrong. Uh, you know, a long time ago, there were a couple of shops in New York where you could
+
+[23:29] get, uh, you know, cheeses. So, you know, you think they're, you know, Zabars for a long time, but Fairway. I think really, uh, was one of the leaders in, uh, in
+
+[23:40] the, in the, uh, 90s and early, early 90s, at least in really kind of raising uh, cheese consciousness among a large group of people. Wouldn't you say so, Jack? Yeah absolutely. I mean, yeah, so I feel that we owe Steve Jenkins as a cheese eating culture a lot. You know, and then, you know, I mean, obviously we have a lot of cheese gurus now. Do you know what I mean? But I think I think we owe him. I think we owe him. Yeah, they all always credit Steve too. All the people that go on NSAX will be show and talk about cheese say, you know, he was one of their inspirations. Yeah, yeah. Good guy. Gotta love them. Thank God for idiots. Okay. We have a follow-up from Rob Treypas, who by the way, I now can just pronounce his name because he's had a written in
+
+[24:23] and enough. don't need the help anymore. tripos. Uh, we, uh, we had a discussion on the radio program about uh, rebodling for
+
+[24:29] Mooth, and here's his follow-up. Dave at all. Thanks for your help and insight on my quest to rebottle my apparatis and vermouths. He was having a problem with them oxidizing. I found that fever tree, tonic, and ginger ale are bottled in 200 milliliter glass bottles that accept regular caps, i.e. crown
+
+[24:45] core caps that you can get at any home brew shop and you can buy the bottler for very little. I mean, the capper for very little. Uh, accepting regular caps and it's some champagne splits. Also take standard bottle caps. I thought they all did. No? I thought they all did. Hey, look, it's not an actual champagne slip of a bottle if it doesn't take the cap. So I don't know what your any non-screw top thing should accept it. Okay. The reason why is because that's how they store it normally before they cork it when they're doing their racking stuff. Anyways, okay, okay. So after, uh, and it's convenient that you can pack a 5th into 4 small bottles. So after a fugion and tonics, horses, necks, and French 75s, you know, that's what they used to call some of the people in my stepfather's family, they all had dumb names for people, like mean ones, mean nicknames that
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+[25:29] used behind their back, and horse's neck was one for Gerard's great grandma. Well, I have no idea why. I have no idea why. some of them are unrepeatable on the air. Some of some of the, in fact, the vast majority of the Adonisio family nicknames are unrepeatable on the on the air, although they are hilarious. Okay, A, I collected enough bottles to rebottle my collection. A local wine shop and canned wine preserver gas, Argon, which remember is a good one to use, that I used to purge the headspace. I experimented on a different dispensing techniques to get an effective blanket using a bottle filled with water and a match. Well, you'll see why. One drawback to canned gas is that the pressure is high at 1st and then dissipates as you use it. I found that 7 quick sprays towards the south side of the bottle did the trick, and I checked my blanket by putting a lit match in the opening just below the crown.
+
+[26:20] If the match went out immediately. I reasoned there was no oxygen. I then use the same technique on the 4 to 5 fortified wines. When I noticed a different pressure flow out of the can. I checked the water blank. The attached poor quality cell phone shows the results. Happily, I can now keep 6 small fresh bottles in my refrigerator, along with my syrups and acid ingester, without upsetting the family too much. I also attached a PDF, which is from a wine thing. You guys can look it up with some more information on inert gas. Yep, what do you think? He also, remember I recommended picking up a copy of Fix the Pump by Darcy O'Neill. Remember that? Yeah, he did that and he likes it. So there you have it. Yeah, bueno. Can I ask a really quick question from the booth here? This is for me. Um, if I don't refrigerator vermouth. How long is it going to be good for? It's not the refrigeration. It's the problem? Refrigeration slows the changes that are due to oxidation, right? So if you, uh, like, if you were to actually effectively remove all of the oxygen from uh, where the stuff is, then it's shelf life shouldn't be compromised over regular vermouth, but uh, storing regular vermouth in the fridge is
+
+[27:28] gonna prolong its its life after it's been opened if you don't remove the
+
+[27:32] oxygen. Okay, yeah. Got it, man. But I definitely recommend doing it. And or buying most people, if they're not, like, at the very minimum, just buy small bottles of vermouth. I mean, the real problem is, is that it's usually only the brands that aren't my favorite brands,
+
+[27:47] that come into small bottles. So no one makes small bottles of carpano. They only come in, you know, larger things. No one makes small bottles of Dolin. No one makes small bottles of coke or all these other things that, you know, we like to use. And so it's a problem. If you're a fan of something like Martini and Rossi, then those do come in smaller bottles and the cost isn't so high. So you can use it in relatively short order. You know what I mean? And this is another dumb question, but Amaros are not fortified wine, right? Uh, well, I mean, they, uh, now you have to look
+
+[28:22] at Nastasia, look at the technical definition of Amara, while he's looking at it, and we'll get back to it. I mean, they can be wine base, right? They have a wine base and then fortify with herbs and extra liquor to get the proof up. But Estach is going to look up, this is the 1st time ever. Nastasia's going to look up, what? This is the 1st time I'm useful. Well, that's true. I mean, in general in life. Yeah. You probably didn't hear what she said because she wasn't, her face wasn't in the microphone, but she was, uh-huh, uh-huh. All right. We'll get we'll get that. get that technical stuff for you, Jack, in just a second. We have a, now these questions, I'm just, I'm just reading, so I haven't, I haven't had time to look at them beforehand. They're coming off of, I don't know, Jack's printer somehow made them. Hello, gang. This is from Mike. I have a practical question concerning chili peppers. I frequently handle them when cooking, and by the time I am finished with prep work. My hands often feel like they're burning. Presumably it has something to do with capsation, which is the, you know, the heating part, the hot principle in hot peppers. Sometimes I'm smart enough to wear latex gloves, but this isn't always possible. Plus, at home, you don't like to wear, they taste close anyway. Do you? you like to wear latex clothes? Well Nastasia likes to wear latex clothes when she's cooking. That's some weird stuff I don't want to get into. No. I'm making it up. Do you know of any treatment which neutralizes this burning sensation. Sorry for such a housewife you thought, hey, don't be insulting the housewives, by the way. But my hands really, really hurt right now. Much appreciated, and please keep up the great work, Mike. Well, I don't know. Do you know of any, like, uh, presumably you have some small nicks and cuts somewhere in your hand, right? So what would, see, I don't think rubbing it with oil would help because
+
+[29:52] capsation's oil soluble, so it would go into, go into that. I mean, you could try it as kind of a primary thing, but then your hand's going to be slippery and you're going to slice the heck out of your hands. I would just, uh, look, if you only handle as you're cutting, if you're careful to only handle the waxy outer cuticle section of the, of the pepper, then you're not going to become in contact with the, with the, with the seeds too much. And probably, if after you slice it, you give it a real quick, quick rinse
+
+[30:18] in, in, uh, in, uh, water to get the stuff off, it might help a little bit. But I don't really know. I've never been asked to have this problem fixed. Uh, so listen, anyone out there, please, give us your thoughts on, uh, if you have problems cutting, uh, cutting, you know, red
+
+[30:36] hot pepper, hot chili peppers, and you know of a solution other than latex gloves, call us in, right?
+
+[30:42] Or right. And we'll do it next week. All right, next one, which also has something to do with uh, capsation, is uh, from Rory
+
+[30:50] Mirns, and Rory writes, hi, day, from the Land Down Under, a.k.a. New Zealand. Love the show. I listen to the podcast on my walk home from work. I have a, that's a long walk. Well, where does he live? I don't know, but I'm saying it's a long walk. If you listen to the podcast, it's long. long walk. I have a question regarding the coloring of a capsicum-based sauce. I'm working on that contains, you know, capsicum peppers, red pepper, presumably red, although it doesn't necessarily need to be vinegar, sugar, salt, and a little ginger and garlic, no other
+
+[31:21] additives. The sauce is bottled and capped well hot, and it has a stunning red color. It retains this color well overall. But after a while, there is some darkening scene near the tops of the bottles. What is causing this? I assume it is some sort of oxidation. But more importantly, what options do I have to prevent it from happening? Oh, shoot, you know what? When I was talking about the herbs, here's what I forgot to mention. McGee, in his curious cookbook on that thing, says that even if you, um, even if you destroy the enzymes,
+
+[31:48] the polyphenol oxidases in the, uh, in the herbs by blanching. After you make a pesto with them, they will still eventually go brown. And the reason is, is that the oxidation of those phenols and then their eventual agglomeration into brown colored things will happen even if the enzyme is destroyed. you know, not nearly as much, but will happen at a much reduced rate.
+
+[32:16] It all depends on the actual, uh, reactivity of those, uh, phenomic
+
+[32:21] compounds. Because the phenolic compounds aren't destroyed. the enzyme that's destroyed. Another interesting thing. If you add at fresh enzyme, like any fresh herb at all to the stuff that you've blanched, the enzymes are there and they'll go and they'll work and they'll do their dirty brown work.
+
+[32:36] So that might be another thing to look at on the herb thing is the fact that you, you know, maybe there's some fresh herb getting into it
+
+[32:43] afterwards or maybe you just get some browning anyway, maybe you need to blanch it a little bit longer to really make sure you kill all the enzyme because enzymes aren't deactivated right away.
+
+[32:51] Anyway. Uh, so back to uh, Rory's question. I assume it's some sort of oxidation, but more importantly, what options do I have to prevent it from happening? Okay, looking at your list, you have capsicum, peppers, vinegar, which is an acid, acid should present, prevent somewhat browning because if there are any enzymes in it that are, if it's an enzymatic reaction, the vinegar, the acidity, is going to inhibit
+
+[33:16] that. sugar, salt, and a little ginger or garlic. Okay, but here's the issue. You don't have in there, so oxidation is going to take place over a long period of time, regardless of whether or not
+
+[33:29] there are enzymes present, as I just said, what you might want to do is add a little bit of an antioxidant.
+
+[33:36] Uh, so vitamin C, ascorbic acid is one that you might try, um, sodium metabisulfate. Another one you might try, although I don't recommend it. I don't like it because the meta by sulfites, to me, they have like kind of a sulfree note, like an aroma that I think is unpleasant. I mean, clearly it's you're bottling it hot, so it's not probably not an enzyme thing. Uh, and it's interesting that the discoloration is seen near the top. So it's either a drying effect, which it can't be because it's sealed or it's oxidation, which is happening at the place where the oxygen is present,
+
+[34:10] a.k.a. the top. So I would say if you adding an antioxidant is a way to go, or if you can, going back to the last question about
+
+[34:17] vermouth, put an inert gas blanket on the top of it. might also help you. So inert gas blanket on the top. and or an antioxidant. I would you know, if it was me, I would do both. I don't know what kind of time length you're talking about to Browning, so I don't know kind of how much you, you know, can get rid of. But those are, those are my suggestions. do you think? Good. Good. Oh, if you have time for another quick question. What would your 3 must try food joints be in New York while on a
+
+[34:51] budget? Can be street food vendor, takeaway joint, reasonably priced restaurant,
+
+[34:55] et cetera. Thanks for keeping up the good work. So what do you think? Roberta's for lunch. Let's say. Yeah? Come to Roberta's for lunch. How much does how much does pock pot cost? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Jack, you got any good budget joints? I'm thinking now. I guess you could, you could do reverters on a budget. Pac pac? I'll look up the price. I don't know. I mean, like Pac Pac's a great restaurant. That's Andy Rickers restaurant and I don't think the prices were that high, right? don't think so. Who else is budget? Nastasia's thinking, right? All right. Jack, are we are we are we about to get the plug pulled? or should we, we don't have time? I got another 5 minutes, but not time to see what do I have any Twitter questions does? No. All right. So we can just blither. I can just blither for 5 minutes. music? Did you? Oh, we can talk about the music. Yeah, we did not. I kind of, I shunned it. Here's the deal. So we're not allowed to use vicious vicious vodka by Amos Milburn anymore. Fishes, fishes, vodka, as some called it. Which I enjoy. We can make our own song called Fishes, Fishes, Vodka. And then, you know, be, you know, be all set. But that's probably not going to happen. But here's here's the thing. So what Jack wants to do is to have some sort of contest for kind of a user user, a listener to say that they, you know, have a song they think should be
+
+[36:20] the what's it called? Theme song. theme song for the cooking issue show. And then I said, you know, I just bought a base, a new base. I haven't played bass in many, many years, but I just bought an acoustic electric
+
+[36:31] base, and I thought, you know, Jack and I could come up with some sort of crazy theme song. He says maybe we should have the listener theme song versus our theme song.
+
+[36:41] Yes. Yeah, and then people can vote. I think our theme song would win, especially if we do fishes, fishes, vodka. Especially if they choose our theme song and we give them some free heritage heritage meat. That's right But now you're discouraging people from entering into entering into the thing. Well, I think, uh, we'll probably give all the all the people who enter the contest and give us a real submission will get some some pork chops from the heritage
+
+[37:05] meat shop if they happen to be in New York. Yeah, what are the requirements, Jack? For the song? Yeah. Shouldn't be, it doesn't need to be longer than, say, a minute and a half . And it should be clean for the radio. Right. No cuss words. Instrumental, right? Well, you know what? Not necessarily. does not have to be instrumental. No, I'm going to keep it pretty open-ended. Yeah, like why would it be instrumental? Like, like, for instance, like, I would be proud to have the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef. Oh, man. You know? We should get him out on it. Right? He should probably come up with your theme song. In fact, he should probably do all the theme songs for the whole network. Uh, yeah. I mean, like, I, like, the problem is, is that, like, I'm just a fan of that particular song.
+
+[37:52] That jingle. You know, Hershfried, Granch Fed Beef. So anyway, send us your music. info at heritageradionetwork.org. Come up with a theme song for cooking issues. MP3 is best. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All righty then. Uh, so I guess, uh, you know, you're gonna give you 10 more seconds to call in. If not, have a good week and we'll be back next week with cooking issues.
+
+[38:22] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[38:29] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[38:49] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Looking for a fun night out? K1 speed puts you behind the wheel for an adrenaline fill time you and your friends will never forget. Off the track. The fun keeps rolling with arcade games, great food, and drinks. They even have private party rooms for your birthday parties and corporate outings. Race hard, laugh harder, and claim your spot on the podium. K1 speed, more than racing. It an experience. Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range,
+
+[0:35] all natural, grass-fed and grass-finished beef. For more information, visit Hearstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:57] That's a little mellow for us, don't you think? Yeah it is, huh? It's like a little melly thinking, how am I supposed to go from that to? Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. at Roberta's Pizzurin, Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, in the studio, and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth.
+
+[1:23] How you guys doing? You know, I think the mellow theme actually got you more amped up. I had to be. Yeah, that worked out well. I'm telling you, man, I have the base. I haven't practiced enough, but here's what I realized. Like if you don't play bass for like 10, 12 years or so. You lose your chops. You know what I'm saying? Like my hands tire out soon. what they, what they call a, a sissy. Um, But yeah, I'm still thinking about writing, uh, writing the, you know, a cooking issues based theme, or I could just do like a night court style stupid base intro thing.
+
+[1:54] We could try that. Yeah, for those of you that remember Night Court. We could even do like some Seinfeld licks, like Joe just said. that would be cool. Yeah, I mean, I could do that stuff all day long. If you guys got the mic, I got the base. Let's do it next week. All right. I'll bring in the bass, but by the way, speaking of next week on starting on this Sunday is the Star
+
+[2:15] Chefs International Chef Conference, Daz. Are you are you happy that you're going to be out of the country during that? That means you're not going to have to help during the day. Yeah. All you have to do is serve a cocktail though. No, no, I'm doing a also doing a workshop. See, you wouldn't know it because it doesn't say it anywhere on the website that I'm doing a workshop, but there is a slot. I am doing a workshop on Monday from, I think, something in the afternoon sometime,
+
+[2:38] like 2 to 4 or something like that. At the International Chefs Congress, and whatever, they had a slot, so they're like, hey, Dave, will you be our sloppy third? Some guy canceled. Will you do it? I'm like, yeah, sure, what the hell? 'll do it. I'll do it. I do it. So it's supposed to be tech and cocktails. I'm going to bust out probably the centrifuge. I might bring the crappy little centrifuge just for you guys to play with. All those stars, it's not firing up. I took it apart. So in all fairness to the piece of equipment. I took it apart, but it's not getting electrical signal anymore. Is yours at home still working? Circulator? No, no, no, no, no. The, uh, the, uh, centrifuge. pay attention, pay attention. catch up. Oh, uh, he took a Del Posto. So it's still working? Yeah. All right, I'm going to have to borrow that sucker. Um, or fix fix mine. But I'm going to bring the full size centrifuge. I'm going to do a lot of work with what I've been working on for the past couple of weeks for the new bar menu is
+
+[3:24] tannin removal. Tannin removal. I'll just leave it there. I won't spoil it before the demo before I can write it, but just put that in your head. 10 in removal. And also, some interesting bodying effects with whey protein. So head on down to the international chess congress to see Dave Arnold, me from Booker and Dax, our bar, doing a, what in
+
+[3:47] the hell do they call this? Like a mixing workshop here? 41 and you still have to do your own plugs. I know, right? Pathetic. Well, you're not doing it for me. sitting around. So every time I have a birthday. Right? Which is too many, too many, too many times that Nastasia and I have shared birthdays together. I'm like, we still work together? What the hell? Like, it's like, we just increment the year and we're like, I'm 41
+
+[4:08] freaking years old and I'm still carrying my own equipment to demos. You know, when you're like 20 and so if you get 20, when you're like 19 and you're in a band and you're like, someday our band's going to be awesome and someone's going to move my big bass rig for me from place to
+
+[4:21] pace. I'm going to have like, you know, roadies. No, never happens. Never happens. The day that someone actually picks up a piece of equipment for me, I will drop dead from shock. So I hope it never happens. anyway. Japanese is the Japanese. What? The Japanese. Oh, that's true, man. was crazy. And then we almost died from shock. Right? We showed up. All the equipment was moved around. Like the equipment we asked for was there and we almost passed out. Remember? Crazy. Don't do that to me. Don't don't don't all of a sudden change things like that. It's no good. Okay, last week we had a question in on Oh, I didn't say the number. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 to call in live to the studio. 718 being a Brooklyn number, this being the land of hipsters. Okay, last week I had a Twitter question come in, and I didn't get a chance to answer it. I apologize. From Landon Young. ordered a Berkshire hoghead and belly, bacon, cold or hot smoke, and head, favorite use. Okay, look. The bacon. Look, I don't I've only made it like once or twice, many, many, many, many years ago, and I don't do a lot of smoking. In fact, there's another smoking question here. But I will say what I, from what I do know, I, you know, the recipes ask for a warm smoke, not a cold
+
+[5:34] smoke. In other words, like bacon is supposed to be somewhat cooked up in anywhere between 130, which is on the low side, but really more like 145, uh, 150 is typical, like 140 I would do,
+
+[5:45] probably, for after it's been cured in a mixture of salt, uh, nitrates and spices and possibly sugar and maple syrup, and what else? Um, you know, you could do dry or wet. It doesn't matter, but they're almost invariably cooked during the smoking process. That said, that said, And it all depends. You're going to fry it, I mean, who the heck cares how much, you know, not who the heck cares, but like it's not super critical on what temperature you're going to cook it up to so long as you bring it up to the final cooking temperature.
+
+[6:12] Now, if you salt the bejesus out of it and dry it, then you don't need to cook it at all, right? So a lot is dependent upon what kind of cure you're going to use and how you're going to use the finished product.
+
+[6:24] That said, my favorite, not not bacon, but pork belly I've ever had was Wiley. My brother-in-law Wiley DuFrane's original WD 50 opening menu, long cooked pork belly, and he cured it. He cured it with nitrites, actually, and salt for a long period of time. And he cooked it at an extremely low temperature in a circulator. He didn't smoke it, right? So he just took it out of the cure, pressed it really flat, so it was nice and dense, and then crisped up the skin side and sliced it thin, served it. Or not even the thin. It was in chunks, but the most delicious pork belly I've ever had, but if you were going to do
+
+[6:58] a something like that instead of a bacon, then what I would do is I would do the cooking
+
+[7:04] procedure, as Wiley did, then I would dry it off at a very low temperature, so you're not cooking it. Uh, and then cold smoke it. That stuff was delicious. Oh my god, is that stuff delicious? Okay. And then as for the head, favorite use. Now, okay, look. So if you want to go Italian on this, you should definitely cut the... I am assuming the head comes with the jowl, right? And Nastasia, I know that you hate almost everything in the world is delicious, but you like
+
+[7:29] Wonchali, right? Really? You're not just saying that so I don't yell at you? I don't like it as much as pen. I would I don't put it in carbonara. Okay, listen, I'm not gonna, I can't, I can't have this discussion with Anastasia. But Guanchale, which is the which is the cured jowl of the pig, is, in my mind, one of the more delicious things in the world,
+
+[7:51] it perhaps ranks in the top one of my pizza toppings, you know, aside from, you know, whatever cheese and sauce, by the way. But like in terms of meat-based topping for a pizza. my absolute favorite. Have you not had the guancalean egg pizza here? I have not had that. I guess what's going to happen today? Guancelli and egg pizza. At Roberta's, come to Roberta's and have our delicious pizzas, right? Right. Anyway, so Guanchali is delicious. So if there is if the jowls left on the pig head, I would definitely take that off and cure that separately. I, I, you know, I like a, like a lot of people who are doing these artisanal Guancelli's, like, cure the hell out of
+
+[8:27] them, and they really salt the ever-loving crap out of them, uh, and they become a lot drier. I actually prefer a more modern, wetter, what? Nastache is like shocked because she's reading something about drug resistant gonorrhea on in a magazine.
+
+[8:39] But, okay, so once you cut the jowl off, then, uh, and I've never made it, but one of my favorite things to eat made from
+
+[8:46] pork head is, uh, is, uh, Testa, you know, uh, head cheese, uh, the Italian style head cheese. There's a decent recipe for it on page 187 of the new Salumi book by Polson and Rulman. You like testest does? She's not paying attention. reading your tweets. No, yeah, I do. Yeah, okay, fine, fine. Good, good. Nice to know. She actually is trying to find out if any of you guys are tweeting in questions. So I'm going to give her a pass on this one for not paying attention. It's good. good. Anyway. But if you, the one thing I have done a lot with poor kids and I like, and I know it's not traditional at all, is making a scrapple with them. Scrapple, Scrapple, for those of you that don't eat scrapple, smack yourself in the face. Unless you're a vegetarian, if you don't eat crap, scrapple, I almost call it crapel, which is a lot of
+
+[9:26] people, damn, smack yourself because scrapple is incredibly delicious. Now, what is Scrapple? Scrapple is basically polenta plus. If you just sold Scrapple as polenta plus, then everyone would order this, right? So when you're butchering a hog or whatever, whatever you got, right, hog,
+
+[9:42] traditionally, the scrap will be made from kind of the, the, uh, metals, you know, metals up with the butcher soup of whatever's being
+
+[9:49] boiled, uh, and done, along with all the entrails called the pluck, and it would have a lot of liver. And so the liver thing is kind of, I think, what gave it a bad rap among certain people, but modern scrapples don't have to be made with liver, don't have to have that livery taste. You just cook the heck out of the head, right? Get a nice, strong gelatin, the keys. has to be a gelatinous stock. Pull the head out, pick the meat, chop it up, throw in the cornmeal, cook it like a polente. last second, throw the meat back into it, form it into blocks, let that sucker set, cut that sucker, fry it, pour maple syrup
+
+[10:19] over it. Could anything possibly be more deliciousness. I don't know. I don't know, like, Scrapple hits like a cord in my taste memory, because my grandma, actually, my non-Pennsylvania Dutch grandma used to make it for me, but, you know, I have a lot of like Pennsylvania
+
+[10:33] and my family going way back, although I never lived there. So Scrapple is fantastic. and there's many regional variants of Scrapple. If you want to read an incredibly informative but deathly boring book, the authoritative book on Scrapple is William Weiss Weaver's book, titled Scrapple, uh, another, wait, wait,
+
+[10:50] so, Scrapple, do you like Scrapple? You know, you're not even paying attention, but you don't like Scrapple. Do you like polenta? Another thing, I don't know whether I've discussed this on the air before, but another food that has a bad
+
+[10:59] rap, like Scrapple, is freaking haggis. Hagis, have I discussed this? Anyone remember me discussing haggis? Haggis freaking delicious? If you were to just sell haggis as oatmeal plus,
+
+[11:11] right, which is basically what it is. It's like oatmeal and meat stuff, stuffed into a sheep sheep's, what's that thing called? stomach, and cooked, that is delicious. That is delicious. haggis, neeps, and tatties. Look, there's meat, sure. There's meat and haggis that some people are squeamish about, but you eat that crap every day if you eat any sort of processed
+
+[11:30] meat and whatever. I'm just saying, scrapple, haggis, come back, brothers, because you are some delicious meat products. Should we take commercial bread? All right. Coming back in a 2nd with some more cooking issues.
+
+[11:48] You're listening to Lund by Iggy Dean on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[12:18] The dark, da, da, da, da, da. Now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now. First
+
+[12:35] transgrass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hell yeah. Hearst, Ranch, Grass Fit,
+
+[12:46] the free range, sustainably produced. Humane. Her transgress fed beef, the authentic flavor of the American West.
+
+[12:59] Oh, yeah, the authentic flavor of the American West, Hearst, Ranch, Grass Fed B. Right? Love that song. It never gets old. Love that song. Love it. That's the only reason we did the fundraiser here was because we knew that we would get the live performance of the Hearst French Crash Fat Beef song. That's all I wanted. Okay. This in, we have a lot of actually smoking and preservation questions today, Stas. This one in, I'm going to do one that I can't answer. Should I do the one I can't answer now or just do it at the end and say, oh, sorry, I can't answer it. Bye. I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna suck it up and say I can't answer it. John from Osaka writes in and says, if you know the temperature of a food, Uh, well, sorry. If you know the temperature of food will be stored at, and that food's water content, in the literature, water content is abbreviated A with little W, by the way, meaning water activity.
+
+[13:46] Is there a way to calculate how much salt you need to add to that food, to preserve it indefinitely? I want to make a variety of salted foods that can be stored indefinitely in the refrigerator and around 5 degrees Celsius. I found a few lists of water contents of common foods, but I was unable to find information about what saltage percent,
+
+[14:02] what salt percentages necessary to prevent microbial growth. Thanks, John and Osaka. No, how messed up is that? No, there's not. First of all, salt does a bunch of different things. Huge quantities of salt actually stop almost everything from growing, right? Which is why mummies work. You know, they're completely, well, they're not just salted. They're dehydrated, right? They're actually not salt, just natron, eccentric. My point is, is that salt is usually used in conjunction with dehydration for preservation in foods
+
+[14:30] like ham, for instance. Now, salt also has some other properties in that inhibits many pathogenic bacteria, but not certain, you know, reasonable amounts of salt, but not things like lactic acid
+
+[14:45] bacteria. So you add salt to things like cabbage to produce sauerkraut or kimchi because they will select for lactic acid bacteria to grow. The lactic acid bacteria, increase the acidity, decrease the pH. And it's actually the combination of the salt, plus the acidity that prevents things from spoiling. So, and we're going to talk about this again. We talk about sriracha in a minute, but it's or sriracha, sorry. But the, the, the issue is, is it's very hard. Like water activity and salt are one combination. And so if you have a particular system, like a meat system, then you can know a certain quantity of salt plus a certain water activity that are good, but it's hard to know because the question is,
+
+[15:31] is you might be safe with a lower salt content if, for instance, there's acid
+
+[15:35] present. So it's very difficult to answer. And I looked around for any sort of general guidelines that were applicable to all
+
+[15:43] circumstances, i.e. meats, vegetables, fruits, and I couldn't find anything that I'm willing to
+
+[15:50] quote. And so I don't have an answer, although this, you know, I'm interested if anyone writes or tweets in or calls in with a source for information like
+
+[15:59] that, I'm happy to take it. Should I take a non-preservation related question, person? All right, I'll do a non-preservation related question. Question from Justin. For an upcoming party with friends. We were all bringing special cocktails. I like special cocktails. You? Yeah. Although, what do you actually prefer? Champagne, correct. I've decided I want to make a vodka coffee. I would really appreciate your input on it. The goal is a full strength cocktail with a strong rich coffee flavor and full caffeine content as well. So you want to, you know, pick them up. You know, that's the espresso martini. I don't, for some reason, his name just pops straight out of my head. One of the most famous bartenders in London from like, you know, for a long time. His name literally just popped out of my head. But he invented the espresso martini and the quote that he says is that a model came in and she asked for something that would pick her up and
+
+[16:50] eff her up. And so he invented the espresso martini. It's a good quote, yeah? Okay. And I'm seeing that's what you want here. Okay, so, uh, my chosen technique is mid a mid-grade vodka filtered through a charcoal filter. You got to get the right kind of filter, obviously, to do the right kind of flavor stripping. Uh, cold brew coffee with a very good, uh, dark chocolatey coffee and in the refrigerator overnight. Filter back into the bottle, mix in vanilla, simple syrup to flavor. Is there anything I can do to take this up a notch? Well, yeah. Okay, so look. So you're doing cold brew. I'm assuming you're doing the, um, kind of concentrated, um, oh, what's the name of it? The one where you basically just stir up the grounds, let them sit in contact with the grounds for a long
+
+[17:31] time and then filter, right? As opposed to the Kyoto style, that produces a coffee concentrate. So here's the thing. Cold brew. Uh, cold brew is becoming extremely popular right now. I don't really do much of it because I prefer, I mean, I drink a boatload of coffee, but almost exclusively in the form of espresso. I'm trying to branch out, but I'm branching out 1st into hot coffees, right? Drip, drip style and press style. Uh, you know, anyway. So, uh, but, uh, I do a lot of work with nitrous infusion and coffee.
+
+[18:03] And I, what I would do to kick it up is to try to do the coffee extraction directly into the liquor.
+
+[18:07] It makes an obscenely coffee flavored thing. See if you like it better and will allow you to have more wiggle room in terms of the other ingredients you add because it's going to put you on your behind, as they
+
+[18:19] say with the espresso mind in more ways than one. So, um, with anything, the, the flavors that are extracted uh, in any sort of brewing situation are dependent upon what you're trying to extract.
+
+[18:31] So in coffee, there are acidic flavors. There are bitter flavors, there's caffeine, there's a whole range of different flavors, and they're all extracted differently under different regimes,
+
+[18:44] i.e. different pressures, different temperatures, different times, right? So, espresso is brewed under extremely high pressure in very short amounts of time,
+
+[18:53] you know, through a particular kind of ground, and it favors the kind of extraction you get from
+
+[18:58] espresso. Colder one, colder, uh, they say, although I haven't done a lot of experimenting, like
+
+[19:03] a long-term cold, cold drip coffee tends to produce a less acidic, uh, coffee extracts less of the, uh, or maybe changes the, uh, doesn't alter the coffee to make those more acidic things.
+
+[19:13] I don't really know. But if you were to just mix coffee grounds into liquor, you get a certain extraction, the longer you let that
+
+[19:19] liquor sit, the more of the bitter components are extracted and the less of the varietal
+
+[19:24] note you get of the coffee, more, the just the backbiting bitter. If you pressurize that liquor with nitrous oxide in a whip in an ISI whipper, and you can look up rapid infusion on a cooking issues website to check it out, but like 2 minutes, you get an
+
+[19:38] extremely like you put the, an espresso related ground in the, in the, in the liquor, pressurize it with nitrous oxide, the nitrous oxide forces the liquor into the coffee grounds, you vent it, it boils out
+
+[19:48] violently. You get a very dark, very rich, and non-bitter, uh, coffee that you can do like that, and you can have the whole thing done under 3 minutes, and we make a lot of drinks with that as a base, and it's extremely
+
+[20:00] coffee and extremely punchy. You might like it worse than cold brew. You like might like it better than cold brew. It is a form of cold brew and that there's no heat added to it. Too long an extraction with that technique produces extremely bitter, bitter notes. You can also change the extraction into straight water by doing a nitrous oxide infusion of water into
+
+[20:20] coffee at cold temperatures and test the difference between that kind of extraction and your standard cold
+
+[20:25] brew technique. With any of these things, there's no better, there's no worse. There's just what you like better. I happen to like a 2 minute infusion of coffee
+
+[20:32] at... I forget what it is. I think it's roughly 32 grams, ground coffee per liter of, uh, per liter of, uh, liquor, uh, for 2 minutes with 2 ISI chargers in a one liter container, um, shaken for about a minute and a
+
+[20:46] half, uh, allowed to sit for 2 minutes, vented violently and strained. That's my favorite. But, uh, your favorite Mayberry. I find that's non-bitter, but if you 2.5 to 3 minutes, you get more of a bitter, bitter note. So I would do that. Here's another thing. If you really want to take up your coffee, experience a notch, if you are a fan of the creamy mouth feel of a hot espresso, you can remimic some of that by
+
+[21:07] carbonating not with CO2, which Manhattan special soda aside,
+
+[21:12] I'm not very hard to get a good brew that way, nitrous. If you actually, once you chill the cocktail, you carbonate it with nitrous and spray it out of a
+
+[21:20] foamer. It's not necessarily the foam, but the creamy aeration you get from the nitrous bubbles and the slight sweetness that comes from
+
+[21:27] it mimics the body that you get in a hot, in a hot style espresso, but in a cold drink. And I tend to do that with a good number of coffee drinks that I do that don't contain milk. Although I could do it in milky coffee drinks too. Why don't I? Because I'm stupid. I know why it's because it costs a lot of money to do in a commercial situation to keep pumping those cartridges out. We should do one. What the hell? I mean, just for ourselves. Do you like that coffee drinks, does? It's good, right? We make a drink called the Shakerado that's that coffee liquor. I just told you with, um, so 2 ounces of that liquor. And this one's, it's mellow. It's a lot mellower because there's milk and cream in it. So it's 2 ounces of that. I think a half ounce of simple syrup, one to one, and an ounce of cream and an ounce of
+
+[22:07] milk shaken, and it gets a good frothy head, and you pour that into a glass. But we could do that probably with a cartridge and just spray that sucker out and just
+
+[22:16] go go loony bins with it. I'll try it. Maybe I'll try it today or tomorrow whatever. Dave, 2 things. Yeah. Dick Bradzell? that the guy? From Espresso Martini? Oh yeah, that is him. And call her on the line. Oh, call her. on the air. Hi. Yeah, my name's Jeff. I'm calling from Los Angeles. Um, I had a question about uh, kakui nuts or candle nuts in Indonesian food. I know, I understand that they're poisonous, and I guess I wondered what, what's the temperature you're supposed to cook
+
+[22:46] them, or can you kind of pre-cook them so that way they're not poisonous? Because I want to keep them around the house, but I'm worried about my young nephew and dogs and cats and
+
+[22:55] stuff, eating them and dying. Wait, wait. But you want to eat them yourselves or you just want to find out how to, oh, you want to keep them as solids around, but you want to neutralize
+
+[23:04] them? Right. Okay. I researched this. I researched this a couple of months ago, and the only thing that stuck in my head was I really wanted one because you can burn them straight
+
+[23:14] up, apparently. Have you ever burned one? I haven't actually burned them before, but that's why they call them candle nuts, apparently, is because they make, you can, they're oily enough. You can use them like candles. Right. Yeah, I mean, that's what I read, and I've always wanted to, wouldn't that be awesome? Like, you know, instead of a regular candle on a table, just burning that sucker. Um... Yeah, uh, but I see, I seem to remember there, there being some,
+
+[23:36] I, I can't remember off the top of my head what the toxic principles in it are, and therefore, since I can't remember what the toxic principles in it are, I can't think of a good way to remove
+
+[23:44] them. Um, I seem to remember there being some procedures for it. Are they consumed locally or are they just burned? They're consumed. part of Indonesian cuisine. I guess they're a thickener for a lot of curries, Indonesian curries and things like that. And do they do more than just cook? Do they cook them in a bunch of soaks of water? I guess you kind of crush them up and put them inside of the curry and they create some type of thickening. Um, I, I, I haven't kept them around the house or use them yet just because I'm, I'm concerned because I have, you know, small kids
+
+[24:16] and dogs. I'm worried. I was given some poisonous nuts by a friend of mine from Singapore
+
+[24:21] once. I forget the name of them. They weren't candle nuts. And those ones you had to, I think you had to cook them in like 3 boils of water 1st and then use them for whatever
+
+[24:31] you were going to use them. But, you know, there's a lot of nuts that aren't poisonous acorns, for instance, that are extraordinarily bitter. And so, uh, you would extract the bitter components by boiling them a bunch of times in water, throwing that water
+
+[24:44] away, and then and then crushing and grinding it. But I'd have to, I'd have to look up and seeing whether or not there, look, there's some, there's some poisonous things that
+
+[24:53] are, that are destroyed by fermentation and there are some poisonous things that are destroyed by uh, just being heat
+
+[24:59] labile and there are some poisonous things that are destroyed by leeching. My guess with these guys is that it's by leeching. You're hoping it's by leeching, because then you can just boil it a bunch of times, throw the water away and be good. But I'm going to have to research it because I don't know off the top of my head. Okay. Or I was, I was also wondering, I have a circulator if I could just cook it at a certain temperature for X amount of time. I almost pasteurize it and kill it off that way. Well, okay, so like certain things like water chestnuts are have actual parasites in them
+
+[25:28] and need to be cooked. You know, you can kill that way, but it's all a question of whether or not
+
+[25:32] the whatever the toxic principle in them is heat stable. If it's not heat stable, if it's heat labile, then yes, you can just cook it away. And then it's a question of knowing a time temperature. And if you're lucky enough that the that the temperature to destroy the toxin is low enough to not destroy the structure of the nut, then you can have something that looks like a raw, undorked with nut that, um, you know,
+
+[25:59] is, is, is okay. But, The odds of that are fairly low, I would guess. I would guess you have to leach the stuff out. If you're never going to, if you're never going to eat them, you could probably leave some out with something that won't ruin them, but I have to, I have to research it.
+
+[26:13] Stas, can you put that down as like something for me to? I'm going to look into candle nut preparation and I'll try to get to it next week. Does that sound good? Sounds good. Thank you. All right, thank you. Uh, okay. So I already answered the coffee question, yeah? I did, right? I finished that? Okay, good. Uh, because I never know. I can never remember whether or not I got like sucked off topic or whether I answered it. I mean, I guess that makes sense because of me, because that's how I work. Okay, you guys know next week is episode 100, right? What? Yeah. Oh my god, we got to blow this out. What are we gonna do, Jack? Wait, I lied this week after next week. Oh, that's just even more advanced notice for you. We got to do something. Yeah? I don't know what. We'll figure it out. Okay. From Jonathan, what is the best way to smoke a whole chicken? I have a pretty good kitchen that includes a low temperature smoker, as well as a hot smoker, and both have good temperature control. I also have a circulator and a CVAP. Yeah, that's pretty good. Uh, so, uh, anyway, for the for the 2 people that listen to this show that don't know what a circulator is, God bless you for listening to my ramblings without knowing what a circulator
+
+[27:22] is. But circulator is a piece of equipment that can hold a temperature very accurately. Actually, there's kind of the like the wars between my buddies, right? Philip Preston now has that $500 circulator. What's the Nomico going for a WePop circulator? No, it's like 350 or 400. Anyway, so it's the war of the inexpensive circulators. And while this may not be a good thing for circulator manufacturers, it is going to be a great thing for the world at
+
+[27:45] large because I predict that with the circulator dropping below 500, there's going to be an explosion of circulators on the market. What do you think? Yeah, I think. Yeah, she doesn't give care. She doesn't care. You like using the circulator, right? I haven't used it in a while. Really? Why, because you have brain damage or you don't cook anymore? Because she goes out with Mark Ladner from Freaking Del Posto and just has him do the goddamn cooking. I didn't mean to curse. Wow, that was a curse. Was a curse. Well, it depends on who you're talking to. Depends on who you're talking to. Jack, is that a curse on this radio show? We'll have to ask the concerned parent who wrote in that one time. Oh, no, but he was happy. He just didn't, he just said he pre-listened to it. Oh, right. He screened the shows. He didn't hate us. I think I've cursed him more than you. That's true. That is true. It's a family program. Okay. So, Jonathan, yes, you do have a pretty well pointed kitchen there. Okay, here's the issue with the smoked chicken. So the question is, most people, I looked up on the internet's, to see what the kind of standard answer for this smoked chicken thing is. And it seems to me that everyone cooks the heck out of a chicken. They just overcook the hell out of it. They like it with the crap cooked out of it. So most people on the internets are smoking it at a temperature between 250 degrees and 300 degrees Fahrenheit inside of the smoking
+
+[28:58] chamber for a long period of time. So it's the equivalent of of like, you know, slow cook on any sort of a barbecue they just with smoke. Um, In general, they brine the, the ever-loving whatever out of these birds. Because when you're going to viciously overcook the
+
+[29:15] birds because they're all cooked up to an internal temperature of like 170, which is like 16,570, which is above 70 degrees Celsius, which is ouch, that's high. It's high temperature, like 63, 64, 65, even 67
+
+[29:27] Celsius, so high. So high. hurts my feelings to think about it. The leg meat might actually be okay at that temperature because there's enough connected tissue breakdown, be good, but the breast meat is going to be dry. It will be dry. There will be dry breast meat. So they brine the heck out of it with salt. The salt ameliorates the protein like lets allow the protein hold on to more water even when it's viciously overcooked.
+
+[29:50] Um, and then then smoke it and they love the smoke flavor so much from the long smoking that they probably tolerate the
+
+[29:55] flavor. They all say that it's juicy, and I'm sure there's fat present, which makes it look juicy, especially in the fatter parts of the
+
+[30:01] chicken. But I guarantee you that that breast meat is not juicy. It does temperatures. It just isn't, unless you've really jacked it with phosphates and salt and all sorts of stuff, which I doubt you do. Here are the important things to take into consideration. One, if you want smoke to develop on the surface of the chicken. You want a real smoky flavor. You're really going to have to dry the skin off. Let it dry off before you hit the serious smoke with it. And the same thing, by the way, goes with the baker, who said before. I probably didn't say it before, but obviously, you want the service to be dry. So it helps to let the thing, even before you hit heavy smoke on it to get dry. But you know this, since you already have a smoker that can do low temperatures as well as high temperatures. The other thing is, is that, um, you know, it depends on what you want out of a smoked chicken. So if you want to smoke chicken to be pink, right? To have take on that pink color, then you're going to need to make sure that you have an actual wood or a lot of
+
+[30:57] gas. You're going to need a lot of like what they call NOX, i.e. either NO gas or NO2 gas, right?
+
+[31:04] NO2 gas, somewhat water soluble, permeates into the, um, into the chicken, reacts with whatever, um, you know, myoglobin is
+
+[31:12] present and forms a stable pink cured color, right? Which is the, I think, the best associated explanation of why smoke ring happens in things.
+
+[31:20] So for a smokery, for pinkness, you're going to want low temperatures so that you're not denaturing the myoglobin very quickly, right? Because the way myoglobin, even though there's not much in chicken, it's present. The way myoglobin denatures is the slower it denatures, the more resistant it is to changing its color and turning into, you know, the gray color of totally cooked cooked
+
+[31:41] mildgum, gray and brown. So, uh, so that's why, for instance, that when you do low temperature cooking in a circulator, uh, the meat around the bone, if it's not cooked quickly, uh, gets insulated and never really gets cooked uh,
+
+[31:54] to uh, what people think is a done color. I call that kind of persistent pinking, but it's a slightly different pink when you get cured meats and so you should be fine. People should like it. Although people do throw away pink smoked chickens and turkeys if they don't know any better. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Um, So, uh, this is what these guys are doing. If I were you, I would cook this sucker through to, I would, you want to do a whole chicken, you said, right? Shoot, whole chicken. See, if you were allowed to, if you're going to do it whole, then I would brine it because the breast meat's still going to need protection. Even if you cook it, let's say we're going to see that bit up to an internal temperature of
+
+[32:32] 66 Celsius, let's say, 66 Celsius. The bones will still be uh, still be pink there. Now you got to remember, like, if I don't want any pinking around the bones. I completely bone it and leave it whole, a la my totally boned out, crazy aluminum, you know, Thanksgiving turkey. Are we going to do that again this year, Staz? Yeah, we can. You want to? You want to do two? You can have one. What are you doing? Who knows? You don't know what you're doing for Thanksgiving? We got a caller. Oh, okay, let me get this finish. So then what I would do then is I would cook it all the way through, pull it out hot, let it flash off so it dries off, and then you can do a cold smoke, but you will not get a pink ring with
+
+[33:09] that because once you cook the meat, it won't pink up from the smoke ring.
+
+[33:13] If you want to go more traditional and you want it more evenly cooked. I would spatchcock it, i.e. cut the thing open and splay it open, although that's not really a whole bird, but that's the way that I do
+
+[33:23] larger animals like turkeys if I'm going to grill them and I don't have accurate temperature control. Of course, you do. Okay, call her. You're on the air. Hi, David, it's Derek from Montreal. And I have a question about oysters. All righty. Uh, you, uh, a few weeks ago, you mentioned, just off the
+
+[33:40] cuff that you had, once, uh, steeped oysters in aquarium salts and water so that they would pick up flavors that you were infusing in that water. Correct. And, uh, I wanted to know, uh, I picked up the salts, and I just wanted to know what
+
+[33:54] the, uh, the best approach was to get the, a successful result. All right, so, okay, so here's here's the here's the thing. So, 1st thing you have to figure out is how, uh, Briny, you like uh, your oysters, right? What kind of salt level you want in your oysters? I like fairly salty oysters, like, so for instance, like duxberries out of Massachusetts and things like that. I really enjoy that. You might like a slightly less saline one. And so you're going to have to figure out how much salt you're going to want to add per gallon of liquid. It's usually it's been a while since I've done it, but I believe it's .29 or .27 pounds of salt per gallon of liquid.
+
+[34:34] I'm sorry I remember it for all you metric heads. I'm sorry, I remember it in imperial units, but that's, you know, what it is. Um, so, uh, and that relates to the, that relates to the average salinity of ocean water, which is what aquarium salt is kind of calibrated
+
+[34:48] too. Okay? So you're going to want to end up at something like that. Now, the question is what flavors do you want to do? And how fine a, so what you don't want to do is include anything in the liquid that's going to kill the
+
+[35:02] oysters. I either clog its gills. So large particles, I forget what the exact number is, but it's somewhere on the order
+
+[35:08] of particles larger than, I think, like 10, 12, 14 microns,
+
+[35:14] particles larger than that, tend to clog up the gills of oysters and kill them. Okay? So you don't want large particles like that. So you want everything filtered. I use a rotor state or homogenizer that can blend things down to well below that. A Vita Prep, just for your, you know, just for mental information, can only really get down to about a 20 micron size. So not enough to prevent prevent gill clogging in this. So you want to make sure that everything is filtered. So juices are good, uh, things like that. You also can't be acidic, right? So pH water, I mean, you got to get the pH balance of the water has to be accurate. So you can't use a lot of acids or that will also wipe them out. I have had people say that they've had luck with things that are otherwise irritants, like smoke, and we have done bacon and clams, but I haven't done it in oysters because when I was doing a lot of my initial
+
+[36:04] experiments, I want to stay away from things that were known irritants. I know, for instance, that cardamom works. So I'll tell you, the recipe that we used to use was we would juice a boatload of carrots. I would then take cardamom, and we'd hit it with a blender. We make this carrot cardamom liquid, strain it, hit it with a rotor stater to make sure all the particles are small. Then we would add sea salt, basically to taste, but roughly sea water quantity. Now, the trick is to get oysters to feed, they can't be too cold. So at fridge temperature, it's not it's too cold, the oysters won't feed. So you want to leave it. Yeah, you want to leave them out for a little bit to let the oysters start feeding. You want to be completely undisturbed. If they hear rapping or tapping, then they won't open up and feed. And when we got good at it, we were getting something like 70,
+
+[36:55] 75% of the oysters would open up and eat. Now, here's the other thing. They won't die. You want to make sure it's well oxygenated, right? So blending right beforehand is good because it increases the oxygen level in the
+
+[37:07] in the liquid. Okay? So you don't, you don't want it to be, you want it to be not too warm because that's going to drive off oxygen, but not too close so
+
+[37:13] they feed. The other trick is you don't want to let them go too long because an oyster physiologist once told me that there are things that can grow inside of an oyster that are not toxic to it, so it won't kill
+
+[37:24] it, but will can be toxic to you. So I try to keep my infute my oyster eating period in um, within the safety zone of food. So I keep my, I usually try to keep my feeding period down to about 2.5
+
+[37:38] hours somewhere in that range, 2.5 , 3 hours to keep them in that in that danger zone. They're alive still, so I don't consider a real danger zone. Then I ice them down immediately and then shuck them to order. Okay, okay, that sounds great, because I tried leaving them in the fridge overnight in pure carrot
+
+[37:57] juice, just to see, and they didn't really feed. I was kind of disappointed because they didn't, there wasn't like visible carrot juice, you know, replacing their
+
+[38:07] natural juices inside. you know, I could taste them. They're a bit saltier. But that was in a cold, cold, cold fridge. Yeah, yeah, too that opened up. Right, too cold. In fact, that's why they do so well in fridges. They clam up. and they're they're good. So you're talking like, say, I take my, I have some beach juice sitting waiting for me at work. I'm probably going to get do another test this afternoon. So I'm going to have that beat you at almost room temperature, basically. I wouldn't go too high. Yeah, I mean, like 50s, 60s are good. You don't want to go too high or, you know, or you could be growing things like vibrio and all these other
+
+[38:40] things, but yeah, like 50, 55, 60? In Celsius, what is that? Uh... Like, say, like, like a fridge? We keep our fridges at about four. So say you're talking like 12 degrees? Yeah, like in that range. I wouldn't worry about it if it gets up, but like, yeah, somewhere between 12 and 18 somewhere in there. Okay, okay, that's cool. And then, and you're talking about 2 hours at that temperature. Yeah, yeah, 2 hours. Once they're at that temperature, like 2 hours, two, 2.5 , and then ice them right down. Yeah, perfect. Okay, I'm gonna try that this afternoon. All right, let us know. Can I hit you with one more? Yeah, sure. Completely unrelated. I make a pine nut butter or, well, I've actually lots of different nut butters. The moment it's pecan is what I'm doing. And uh, it always breaks in the uh, in the robo, and then I bring it back together emulsified by hand after. You have any tips, pointers for smoothness? What do you mean, what do you mean, it breaks? What are the ingredients? Are you adding extra oil to it? Uh, I'm adding a little bit of uh, caramel for sweetness and uh, I usually have to add a few drops of oil just to get it to, to spin around in
+
+[39:50] the, uh, in the robo coop, um, is, is my uh, weapon of choice. Do you have a champion juice? And then the natural oils come out whether or not besides any oil that I add, but I find I can re-emulsify that with a whisk and some water by hand after. Yeah, do you have a champion juicer? Uh, I have a juicer. I not sure what market is. I mean, is it the kind that has the masticating, like a tube and the stuff comes out because that's great for nut butters. That's what we use to do our pre-grind on nut butters. And then if we want them finer, we put them in a robocooper vita prep, and then after that, we put them into a wet grinder. If we want them really, really, really fine. Ours didn't used to break. Did they St us? No? No? I mean, yeah. Yeah, we have a nice juicer, but I don't know if I want to break it if that's what roasted nuts are going to do to it. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, not break the, although I did break one once, but I was doing many, many, many,
+
+[40:43] many, many nuts. Of course, we were overheating the Robocoups a lot. We were doing a lot of work. We were making for like big events. We would make like big batches of nut butters and nut oils actually. But we did have to add for some nuts, depending if they had low oil content. But I don't I don't know why they're breaking on you. I mean, you could add some Yeah, you could add an emulsifier, a water, you know, a an oil loving emulsifier, for instance, less than or something like that, would probably buy it together. But I don't know what the emulsifier of choices and things like peanut butter. have to look it up. We don't, we never added any liquid at all to it, except for small amounts of liquid in the form of simple syrup,
+
+[41:19] right? Stas? Yeah, yeah. Well, that's kind of what I'm doing. And I even boil my simple syrup, like till it's almost caramel steaks, because I figured less humidity is probably a good thing, right? Uh, yeah. You know, and you know, when you process hard, you should, you could probably add like a super finer powder. It'll eventually probably break down. I mean, that's what the wet grinder we used was for. You could probably get away with it with no added. And then you notice it gets really hot when the robo runs a long time. You flash off a good amount of the water. You know what I mean? Like if you run it long enough for it to get hot. But we never had a break. I'm trying to think. I'm going to put that on a list of things to try and look into. Okay, all right, great. Well, I look forward to trying those oysters this afternoon, and I'll, let's know how it works. Tweet tweet your results on in. All right. Will do. All right, cool. Got a question from Daniel in Illinois. Hi, Nastasia and Dave, I want to make Leila's Thai style sriracha sauce from
+
+[42:15] shesimmers.com, which is like, you know, one of the good, you know, Thai, uh, Thai
+
+[42:21] slash American Thai American blogs. Anyway, and give it as gifts this Christmas. I'm wondering if it is possible to can small amounts of this stuff so it will last longer before opening. Is there a way to figure out if and how this can be safely done? I'm assuming I would have to get some pH trips and probably increase the amount of vinegar and or sugar in the recipe. I do have a pressure cooker if that helps. And a related question, what are some of your favorite food items to make and give away? Last year, we did caramels, candied orange peel, and checks mix. This year, I'm planning on roasting coffee and trying to do the hot sauce. Any other ideas? Roasting coffee is tough from Daniel in Illinois. Roasting coffee is tough because it doesn't last very long. So if you're going to roast it and bring it to someone's house that day, that that's good, but obviously even like vacuum, it's not quite the same. I mean, you could vacuum pack, I guess whatever. But anyway, roasted coffee is difficult. Although, fun to do. I used to, you know, it's been a number of years since I roasted, but I used to only roast my
+
+[43:11] own and I love it. Of course, you can get really interesting coffees from places like Sweet Maria's on the net and all that stuff. Uh, I was, uh, I used to be a, an air popcorn uh, roaster guy. And then I had the ones that were made for the purpose, and I burnt out 3 of them, and then I went to whirly pop. Anyway, enough and coffee roasting. I like to give away cookies. What about you, Stas? Yeah. I like cookies. Nastasia and I tried to give away, like, you know, whatever that was, a thousand, 2,000 cookies or whatever to the troops a number of years
+
+[43:37] ago, and man, you would not believe how hard it is to give cookies to troops. But, you know, leave that for a different life to talk about that. Uh, so, uh, on the stuff. So I looked at her recipe. And by the way, she's also a linguistics expert, so it's not just in
+
+[43:53] Thai, apparently, but also in classics. So it's not Sriracha, as most of us say, but Sriracha,
+
+[43:58] Sriracha sauce. It's one of our favorites, although I also found out that the one most of us use, which I call the actual name of is Hui Fong's Sriracha sauce, Sriracha sauce, is the one we call the nicely the rooster, or actually the kitchen we call it, the hot cock sauce, is the one with
+
+[44:13] the, it's in the bottle with the rooster on the front and bright red because the bottle's clear. Apparently that's not a Thai style. Actually, the one that she calls out, the 2 brand shark, I don't know, and Panich, which is the one. I't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but that's the one that I got from my local Thai guy who said this is what we actually use, the Paniche. And that stuff is delicious, but not the same as the rooster brand one. So her recipe is more like that paneach, which is delicious, if you can get it. So her recipe is 24 ounces of red jalapenos or serranos. She says, do not substitute any other type of pepper. 8 ounces of peeled garlic cloves, 4 ounces of white vinegar, 12 ounces
+
+[44:47] water, 16 ounces sugar, and 6 tablespoons of salt. So, and, you know, follow her recipe, but that's the basic thing. I don't think that that recipe on its own is probably 100% safe. What you need to do is get a pH meter and check to make sure it has a pH of 4.5 or below. Do not use your pressure cooker. Well, we'll get into that one second. So you need a pH of 4.5 or below to ensure that it's what's called
+
+[45:12] an acidified food, i.e. not a low acid food. So just check that. Don't count. I mean, there is quite a bit of salt. That's quite a bit of salt in there, but I don't know that it's enough to preserve it. I would go to the national center for home food preservation and look at their, look at their things. Here's what they had to say. So I would take it below 4.5 and then do what's called the boiling water where you actually cover the products in boiling water inside the cans and
+
+[45:40] boil them out. Unfortunately, Jack's gonna cut me off. I don't have enough time to fully explain all
+
+[45:47] of this stuff, but I think you're right. Just get the get the thing below. And interestingly, the reason that they don't recommend small pressure cookers for canning is because all of the recipes that are written by the USDA and all the ones that have been tested by the agricultural
+
+[46:00] extensions require the long heat up time and the long cooling time of the larger canning things to get their recipes right.
+
+[46:08] they don't want to give you a recommendation. They could, but they don't want to give you a recommendation for how long to cook something in a
+
+[46:14] smaller, in a smaller thing. Some people say, although I don't think this is the reason that also the smaller ones, they don't trust the accuracy of the pressure
+
+[46:21] readings because the gauge doesn't go up high enough. I think that's kind of a load of horse manure. The other thing is you need to make sure that if you are going to use the pressure cooker against their recommendations, that you open the lid and let it vent steam for a good 10 minutes before you allow the pressure to build up.
+
+[46:35] That's going to vent out all the air and get the pressure pressure working up. If you were to get it, there's it's not the same sauce, but I read a really interesting thing about someone who was using fermented pepper
+
+[46:51] sauces. You know, there's a lot to talk about with fermentation and canning, and maybe we should talk about that next time, huh? Because we're running out of time. All right, so I'll get back to it. I have a question in that I'm really interested in that got tweeted in from Andrew about highly saturated fats, but since I'm probably
+
+[47:10] going to go on a 10 minute rant about highly saturated fats, she'll probably leave that
+
+[47:14] till next time. Same with the Harvard Lecture and Agar Agar recipes. I will get to you guys next week. I promise. Cookie issues. Without a thumb, so condescence, whereas we may be. Today's opening song, an outro where by Huntronic from the album Huntronic. You've been listening to cooking issues on HeritageRadionetwork.org.
+
+[47:44] And time, and time, and
+
+[47:50] time. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[48:27] Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars and discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Vicious, vicious, vodka. Oh, you dirty rat. You got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Harriet Radio Network from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. And, hey, guys, you guys did a cover of Amos Milburn, Victor's Vicious Vodka? I didn't do a cover. Plexophonic did. No crap. Our good friends plexophonic. Michael Landa, yeah. Yeah, for those of you that follow this sort of thing. You know, I'm a lover of the old kind of cocktail jazz phenomenon. Amos Milburn wrote a lot of good songs about drinking liquor, you know, a subject of which I'm fond, but we're no longer allowed to use his,
+
+[1:19] it's not, for a long time, a lot of our listeners thought it was fish is fish is vodka. In fact not the case. It's vicious, vicious vodka. Oh, you dirty rat, but because we did not pay BMI ass cap, fees, we can't use the original, but so that
+
+[1:33] covers awesome. I'm loving that. Yeah, was a surprise in my inbox. So is that, so now we're cool. We can go back to, I think we can, I think we can use that. I mean, unless anybody wants to send in something else and one-up that track. I don't know how you would, but. No, I mean, that's it. That's perfect, beautiful. Unfortunately, today, not joined in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Her plane should be somewhere over Boston right now. She's flying back from Oktoberfest. She was in Munich, and believe it or not, possibly the only human being in Munich right now who doesn't like beer.
+
+[2:05] Is that crazy? Why would you go to Oktoberfest? don't like beer. She doesn't like any beer? I told her, no. I was like, I said, Nastasia, look, you know, they're not going to serve you champagne at Oktoberfest. It's not going to happen. You know what I mean? But luckily, we have Jack and Joe in the studio with us as usual. And today, a crew from CNN, who's shooting this, we'll see, we'll see what happens with that. By the way, you know what this means, Jack. There was actually an opportunity to record on video for all time Nastasia's vegan phase. Maybe that's why she's not here. You think so? You think she changed her flight or somehow somehow caused a delay on the airline so that she would not have to have her vegan
+
+[2:46] face video? Maybe Joe can make a vegan face. Well, Joe, do you have, I mean, Joe, you don't, you don't strike me as kind of hardcore as nastasia is on the dislike of the vegan? No, I accept all people's dietary preferences. I'm not a, I'm not hater. Oh, isn't that nice? Isn't that nice? All right, listen, call your questions live too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. But let's get to some of the questions on the email. Okay. Kevin Scott wrote in and he enjoyed our suggestions on CenterFuge. He says, thank you very much for answering my questions about Centrifuges, a couple of shows back. Based on your advice, I've ordered a headed to Rotanta 460 R, which should be delivered in October. I'm pretty stoked and we'll poach a bunch of stuff on my blogs as soon as I start experimenting and cooking with this new gear. Well, Kevin, you decided to buy a pretty sweet little machine. That's the same machine that I think that's the exact model, perhaps, that Wiley uses. Oh, no, you have the R, the refrigerator. So you won up Wiley Dufrayne. Uh, I think that also might be the one that uh, Tony Canoyaro uses it uh, 69 Colbrook Rowe. Good friend of ours, good friend of the program. So, good call. I mean, expensive, a lot more expensive than my, you know, buck, you know, buck 99 center
+
+[3:59] views or not really. I've spent myself personally at least $200 on a centrifuge once, but that's about as high as I can go. Anyway, good luck with it. I'm sure you'll love it. It's a great machine. Got another question from Ed. Who wants to know about ice cream. What up, guys? Love the show. Kudos on having a, well, there's a curse here. Kick butt, kick butt radio show. and not just because it's about cooking related stuff. Wanted to write in requesting some advice on stepping up to a large capacity ice cream freezer.
+
+[4:31] I've been using the Lolo Muso 4080 for 4 years plus, and I can't recommend it enough for home ice cream enthusiasts. By the way, the uh, the low is that if the one that you've seen, it's kind of higher end. It's around 600 bucks, I think. It's usually stainless steel. Fits on a countertop, has its own refrigeration unit. My only gripe, obviously, with it is its batch times are around 30 minutes, so I bet you could trick it out by really getting a cold base and not freezing quite as much.
+
+[4:55] Batch time of 30 minutes, not really ideally. You really want to batch time, you know, below about below 20 Definitely, you know, remember the faster it freezes a smaller, crystal size, smaller the crystal size, smooth the ice cream. Anyway, everyone apparently who has the Lilo loves it. So you're not alone in your love of levelowness. In fact, I went and read a whole bunch of user review sites, and I couldn't find anyone who said anything negative about it. Well, in the price range. It's clearly the best. Exception being good old-fashioned, rock salt and ice, ice cream making, which is a pain in the butt, but makes some fantastic ice cream. That's how I do it at home when I'm not going all teched up on it. Anyway, um, regarding the low. A thing takes a beating, frees a small batches quickly and isn't too tough to clean up besides, and besides the non-removable bowl, which is the bad part.
+
+[5:41] Anyway, I've been looking at used carpagani freezers in the 40 to 50 quart batch range. Anything to watch out for when I'm buying it used and how old is too old? What the hell? You went from, like, you're going from a LELO machine to a 40 quart batch machine.
+
+[5:58] Okay, so here's what I'm gathering. You opening a professional ice cream business. Now, the problem, okay, used equipment is great. Except if you need to rely on it for your business. So, you know, if you're gonna get a 40 quart machine, you probably need that thing to run all of the time.
+
+[6:18] Now, you might be able to find a company that bought one. Carp Johnny is a great brand. So I'm not, you know, don't worry about that. But you have to make sure that the one that you're buying is, I would not buy one that's really, really old, because unless you have someone who's going to refurbish that thing, if you have a professional or a Carpagani, you know, service person who will stand behind the machine and refurbish it, then, and, you know, of course, assuming it uses, you know, the normal, you know, modern refrigeration or it can be swapped in normal, modern refrigeration gases, um, you know, it, it, it's fine because you have someone who's going to stand behind it and the parts
+
+[6:53] are relatively available available. But you have to make sure and check with other people who have the machine that the particular one that you're looking at isn't a dog, right? So, for instance, even the most loved ice cream, small ice cream machine that I've ever, you know, uh, had pastry cooks talk about, which was the, is
+
+[7:11] it Carpagani, coldalite, like lab 100. That one has, you know, a critical expensive part that keeps breaking, the plastic face plate where the draw, the ice cream draw comes out of. And when that thing breaks, it's a lot of money to fix it. And, you know, in a restaurant, you can stop it from breaking, but in the school, ours used to break all the time because students were brutal on it because it's not the students, they don't care.
+
+[7:33] And we're not allowed to yell yell at them, you know, too loudly when they do things that are rough to the machine. But that said, all of the parts for most of those carpagani things are available, but it's good to ask other people who've used a particular machine to find out what parts fail, how much those parts cost to
+
+[7:47] replace, and then making sure you can get it serviced. If all of those things seem fine, then a used machine can be a great deal. And I poked around and there are some people around who sell refurbished units that they'll stand behind. But if you need to rely on something for your business, I wouldn't go by some,
+
+[8:08] because yes, you're going to save a lot, a lot of money, the question is, can you afford to be wrong? So anytime you buy something on eBay, I mean, I've gotten bitten in the butt
+
+[8:17] before too. I try, you know, I try to buy something that costs 10 grand new, and I'll buy it for, you know, a couple 100 bucks, and I'm hoping I can fix it, and sometimes I can, right? In fact, almost all the time I can, but sometimes you can't. Uh, you know, you know, the biggest burn I ever got was I wanted a really beautiful in-line refractometer and the company straight up said they wouldn't support it anymore. So, you know, I would definitely not buy anything used if the company doesn't support anymore that has specialized parts. For instance, electronics boards. Because then if those things go bad, you need to buy a whole nother unit to swap out the parts in
+
+[8:49] it and can be, it can be difficult. That said, you can get a great, great deal. So it's all up to you. It's very hard to make a recommendation on this. Anyway, another question. Also, I've been starting to wrap my head around and experiment with hydrocollards in my
+
+[9:04] recipes, lowering my egg content and adding lambda carragin and locust bean gum. Can I disperse my hydrocollides in a regular blender? Any other particular hydrocollage that you would recommend? One tip of advice I can give, fried chicken flavored ice cream, may get you punched in the face by one of your friends. One of your friends literally punched you in the face when you made them the fried chicken ice
+
+[9:24] cream? What did you tell them that punched you in the face? Jack, that seems extreme, right? Yeah, fried chicken ice cream seems extreme. Well, I mean, that doesn't seem punchy. Maybe punchworthy, though. Right? No. I mean, you know, you know, I mean, like what, what food thing would cause you to punch somebody in the face? Ooh. That would have to be much more rancid than that. Yeah, I mean, I I mean, I can I can think of one, oh, say, for instance, check this out. this is punchworthy, right? So you take a rotary evaporator, which is, of course, the vacuum still that I use to do my distillation. And you can, um, literally deodorize, without sterilizing, by the way, you can deodorize the most foul rank, disgusting, putrid thing you could think of. Just totally rip all the aroma off of it, right? Then turn that, turn whatever it is. your choice into an ice cream, right? And then you serve them the ice cream and they won't know that it's some vile, rancid putrid thing. And then you give them the distilled essence of vial. Now that you should get punched in the face for. Right? I mean, that, you know, punch me because, you know, I should probably be thrown in jail for that. That's awful. You know what I mean? Fried chicken ice cream. Maybe the guy doesn't like it, but you know what? You gotta watch out. Your friends, your friends are too violent. Your friends. too violent. Anyway, on the Carraginans. Now, uh, carraginans are a class of seaweed-based hydrocoloids, polysaccharides, and they
+
+[10:54] have they're used quite often in ice cream because uh, they react with milk. They have a synergistic reaction with milk. And what that means is you can use a very small amount of
+
+[11:03] carraginans to enhance your ice cream. Now, there's 3 basic styles of carragin out there. There's kappa carraginen, which is brittle, uh, and you wouldn't you wouldn't want to use kappa carraginen, because you're not looking for something brittle. It's more, that's more, that's like more like an agar gel. In fact, it's very, very closely related to Agar, although it's heating,
+
+[11:22] you know, properties are different. Iota carragin is a great one. What am I saying? Of course, they use capacaric. They use capacarian all the time. You wouldn't want to use a lot of it. You not trying to gel it hard. Iota carragin is interesting because it will reform a gel after it's set and been sheared. It's also very, very soft. So a mixture of kappa and iota are great for things like fake tofu set flavors or puddings, right? Great. Lambda is the 3rd one. It doesn't actually gel, but it provides a creamy kind of mouthfeel. So if you want to just increase or make more creamy, the
+
+[11:59] mouthfeel of the melted product, lambda is going to be fine. It'll also make it a little thicker, which will probably slow the meltdown characteristics of the ice cream. Typically, you include some other carraginins in it, like Iota or kappa. And in fact, Carraginians are standardized based on the application. So you could probably find a blend of carraginans from a
+
+[12:20] manufacturer, CP Calco is the one that I usually deal with because they have a very wide range of it that specifically blended for a certain set of ice cream properties. Now, uh, carraginans in ice cream are typically there to modify the crystal properties, to stop it from recrystallizing and have the crystals get big over
+
+[12:36] time, and to make it smoother and to prevent meltdown. The secondary thing that you add to it, like locust being gum or guargum, is usually there to prevent within the gel structure of the
+
+[12:47] kerraginen, to prevent the water or the whey from the water from leaching back out and ruining the texture of the ice cream.
+
+[12:54] It's called way off, you know, with a not way, like, you know, una botea way, way like whey protein and milk. Anyway, um, so that's why they usually use 2 gum systems. They used to use Guar a lot, but as I've said on the show many times, Guar is now extremely expensive, because the fracking industry wants so much Guar. So fracking is, you know, where you inject high pressure liquid into rocks to shatter them so that you can get more stuff out like
+
+[13:19] petroleum. And Guar has this cool property that it reacts with borax, right? And when you react with borax, it forms a gel, but the gel is pH dependent. Now you can't use this for food because you're not allowed to use borax and food anymore, even though it used to be used for things like caviar and whatnot. Anyway, so it makes this gel. Here's why you want to do this, right? So when you're fracking, this has nothing to do with food. Don't worry about it. When you're fracking, what you want to do is put something like a silica sand, which is called the prop in, and that's going to keep the, when
+
+[13:47] you, when you bust open a crack in the rock, when you frack it, you need to keep that frack and crack open so that when the liquids come up, right, you can get them out. So you have to pump into the high pressure fracking fluid,
+
+[14:00] this like grains of sand almost or silicates, prop, but you need to carry them. And so you need something that's thick. And so they use guar that's been interacted with borax so that it will
+
+[14:10] be a thick gel that they can pump it under high pressures. They then change the pH when they're done and the guar melts away to a liquid. That's why they use so much guar when they're fracking around. Do you know that one, Jack? had no idea. There you go. And Jack, of course, and apparently the network in general, anti-fracking. Yeah, we can have that discussion later, but... Well, you know, I'd say for the most part, you know. Well, you have
+
+[14:32] a like a giant no fract sticker on the windows, you walk in, so I'm assuming you're, you know, anti-fracking. Most of most of the network is anti-fracking, yeah. Do we actually have a pro fracking comp? mean, I'm anti-fracking. I don't even know anything about the environmental issues, but I want my guar to be cheaper. So that's your reasoning. Yeah, I'm the ice cream loving, uh, anti-fracker. You should lead that charge. Because, you know, Guar, that Guar and Locust being gone are extremely closely related, but Guar has the cool property that when it's mixed with locust, when it's mixed with gel and gum, low
+
+[15:05] acel gel and gum, which is the one I use, forms an ice cream that both can be lit on fire, which is awesome.
+
+[15:12] But also, not because it's combustible, not because, you know, it's a fluid
+
+[15:18] gel, so it won't melt down. It's great bru label ice cream. And, and, you know, I know Jalen, every chef does an ice cream that you can brulee with Kelco gel F. But the cool thing about the guar is when you add guar, it also gets a stretchy, snappy kind of a characteristic, which is characteristic of
+
+[15:32] select on derma, the Turkish orchid ice cream, which, you know, 4 or 5 years ago everyone was trying to duplicate. Anyways. So there you go, Guar. But really cheap guar, really tastes terrible. It's beanie. It tastes like kind of like a black eyed pea flour, which I love black eyed peas, but not the flour. Anyway, okay. So yeah, I would try other things like try locust bean gum, try doing a fluid gel, try adding a little bit of gel in. Small amounts of gelan will really, really, really increase the holding time, i.e. decrease the meltdown of your ice
+
+[16:04] cream and it makes them absurdly smooth. Just look up Calco gel F, low asyl gelan, fluid gel, how to make a fluid gel with it. They're ridiculous, ridiculously smooth. The smoothest ice creams I've ever made. The problem is add too many stabilizers and you decrease the flavor release. So a lot of people think gelato, for instance, is this all natural lovey dovey, no blah, blah, blah stuff. In fact, it's the most highly stabilized stuff in the world, which is why it has that texture, and which is why they have to add so much
+
+[16:31] freaking flavor to gelato because otherwise the flavor would be masked. Okay. What do you think, Jack? Is that a good answer? Yeah, definitely. take a break. Oh, okay, going to our 1st commercial break. Call your questions too. 718-497-2128 cooking issues. So I could love you twice as much as I do. You're listening to I wish I were twins by Plexophonic on heritageradionetwork.org. For us to idolize you each time I face you
+
+[16:57] with 2 hearts twice true. What couldn't fall lips do? When 4 years till you say that I'm yours, da da dum. I wish that I were twins. You great big baby gins. So I could love you twice as much as I do.
+
+[17:43] I wish that I were twins. You big, big, baby again. So I could love you twice as much as I do. I'd have for love and arms to embrace you. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and
+
+[18:10] California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Is that you guys with the music? Yeah, you know. Is that like what is that? Like some sort of hammer dulcimer thing? What is that? Dramatic flourishes. We didn't make it. That was a friend of mine. Really? Morris in Kansas City. Yeah. I'm just not used to hearing Dorothy talk with the kind of, you know, inspirational stuff behind her. Yeah, crazy. Nice. All right. So, uh, you had a Twitter question coming in? We do have a Twitter question. So this one's coming from C. Schneider, it seems. I don't know how to pronounce that. Prime rib cooked in circulators. Suggested time temperature? If cooked chill, should I reheat from room temp or tight from fridge? All right, so here's the thing. Here's the issue. The question is, how are you going to serve this thing? I probably have mentioned this on air. I mention it in every SUV, low temp class that I ever do. The last thing on earth you want to do is cook an entire prime rib, low temp, and then just do a flash
+
+[19:19] seer on the outside and carve it and serve it because you have one huge field of pink meat all the way across.
+
+[19:27] I'm sure I've mentioned this before on the air. I ruined Christmas once at my mom's house by doing that. I mean, it ruined. I mean, in my family, though, if you ruin the prime rib, you ruin Christmas. And it was perfectly cooked all the way across, but nobody wants a perfect field of
+
+[19:42] one texture of meat all the way across. So you can do the whole prime rib, low temp, if you're going to slice it into steaks and
+
+[19:51] then, and then sear them off because you have crust on each side, and then it's beautiful. And in fact, that's the way I cook rib steaks. So for ribsteaks, I mean, I think I've given it before, but for just a rib steak, what I would do
+
+[20:03] is optionally sear it beforehand, put it in a Ziploc bag with a little bit of melted butter, circulate it at 50, either 55 Celsius or 55.2 Celsius for, you know, a couple of hours, drop the temperature to 50 Celsius for a half hour to 40 minutes, right?
+
+[20:22] Don't hold it too long because I can't recommend as a safe, you know, holding temperature 50. Uh, pull it out of the bag and put it onto something hotter, hotter than, you know, the hottest thing you can
+
+[20:33] find. Typically the hottest thing you can find in a house unless you have a really butt kicking grill or a deep fryer or a smoking hot cast iron pan, typically the hottest thing you have is not hot
+
+[20:41] enough. So I'm talking hot, really hot to put a fast sear without overcooking it. And the reason you drop the temperature down to 50 is so that you can get that good sear. So that's a steak. Now, let's assume you're talking about a roast. What you should really do is use a technique. I call low temperature for insurance. And what I mean, my insurance is cooking insurance. So, you might want to put an initial sear on the outside of the meat just to kill bacteria and start flavor development.
+
+[21:07] Um, circulate it. You could do it in a Ziploc bag. You could circulate oil if you have one of the old school fryers, and do the entire rib, the rib roast, 255, 55, 2, and probe test
+
+[21:21] it, or use one of the programs like sous vide toolbox that you can get on the internet to figure out how long it's going to take to get it up to temperature and give it a little bit longer than
+
+[21:29] that so it's cooked all the way through. Now the entire rib is cooked all the way through. Okay? That's what I call it. Now, you don't have to worry anymore about the inside of the
+
+[21:39] rib because when you're cooking a rib in a traditional way, you have 2 different problems you're working with.
+
+[21:44] You're working with getting a good crust on the outside and you're working with making sure that the inside is cooked, but not overcooked. So it's 2 separate problems. So by doing the initial cook step, the low temperature step. You have gotten rid of that 1st problem. You know the inside of the meat is cooked. Now all you need to do is worry about the crust. Take it out of the bag. You can refrigerate it all the way down if you want to, and cook it on a later day. Just make sure it stays sealed in whatever you want. You don't want a lot of oxygen, touching the already cooked fat and meat. Okay? Now, uh, you could also just drop the temperature, uh, or by pulling the
+
+[22:21] roast out and letting it sit for an hour or so before you do your final roast off in
+
+[22:26] the in the oven, or, you know, any one of these things. But once you let it cool down somewhat. Now, crank your oven so it's screaming hot, and just put the roast in, and now all you're worried about is developing a delicious brown, crunchy crust with a little bit of the overcooked stuff on the outside that we all actually love.
+
+[22:44] You know, as much as I talk about low temperature cooking and getting all the cooking
+
+[22:48] stuff right, the best part of a hammer or a roast is that like kind of overcooked, crackling fat stuff around the outside. Let's be honest. As long as there's a whole bunch of juicy, delicious stuff on the inside as well. And so, you know, that technique is low temperature for insurance where you've ensured that you've cooked the inside properly, but then make sure that you get a nice delicious crust on the outside is the technique that I'd use.
+
+[23:12] Did that answer the question, Jack? I think I answered the question. More than enough, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. All right. Got a question in from Andrew, I'm going to mispronounce your name, Andrew. Andrew, Janji, Jan. J J Jan. J J J Jan. I'm guessing that's not. Really? Oh, you come here and look at the next break. You tell me I got it right. And Andrew, you write in, tell me how to pronounce. know what? You know who one of my favorites is? Writes in all the time. Rob Treypaz. You know why? Because he knows I can't pronounce anything properly, and he put Trey Pah's pronunciation. So now I see his name and I just think Trey Pas. See? Nice. See? Just me or Trey Pod sounds like something that could be delicious. Well, it does because it sounds like it does. But it reminds me of cray pods, cray pod. remember cray paws? They're those like, really kind of like, really saturated color, oily crayon suckers. Oh, yeah. But imagine if they were delicious and edible, that would be Trey Paz. Right? I wish. Yeah. Cray paws to tray pas. Anyway, so Andrew, we'll just call him Andrew. His Twitter handle is at Wordloaf, which I can pronounce, has a question for us. I was supposed to get to last week. Why are highly saturated fats better for frying slash crispness? Is it just better stability slash smoke point or something more? Thanks. Okay, I love this question. I love it because I don't think you can say that there's any one fat that is the best fat for frying. There's okay, so look. Okay, so saturated fats are fats that where all of the carbons
+
+[24:44] and the fatty acid are fully saturated fats are ones where all of the carbons are joined by single bonds. An unsaturated fatty acid is one where there's double bonds in the carbons. And, you know, mono unsaturated means one double bond and poly unsaturated means multiple double bonds. Now it's the saturated fats, right, are the more plastic, more plastic, i.e. solid
+
+[25:05] fats, because the more saturated something is the higher the melting point,
+
+[25:10] right? For a given length of fatty acid, right? Because fatty acid chains are measured by how many carbons long they are. And then after that, by how many double bonds they have in it. And then after that, by where in the chain the double bonds are. Okay. So it is true that the saturated ones have a higher melting
+
+[25:28] point and they're the solid fats. And the double bonds in unsaturated fats are much more reactive to oxygen, and it's oxidative breakdown that causes rancidity, and all sorts of other, you know, issues that make oil taste bad. So, you know, in a world where you're going to abuse your fat, right? Theoretically, saturated fats are going to last longer. It doesn't always work out that way, though, right? What I really want, what I really focus on when I'm choosing a fat is not the smoke
+
+[26:00] point really, although it's important to have it, you know, be the smoke point to be high enough that it's going to break down. It's not even how long the fat is going to last, although again, crucially important from an economic standpoint and making sure you can at least make it through tonight's frying.
+
+[26:13] The crucial thing you need to 1st decide is what am I frying and how am I eating it? Let me give you an example. Donuts, when they're hot, always tastes good, right? I mean, I've said this many times on the show, like any any fool monkey can make a hot donut that tastes good, right? Also, yeast raised donuts are much easier to
+
+[26:36] make taste good than a cake donut. And the reason is that it has to do with oil absorption. So cake donut absorbs much more oil from the fryer than
+
+[26:47] a yeast raised donut does. And so the quality of the oil makes a big difference. Now hot donuts, like most hot fried things, as long as the oil is of good quality, right? are delicious. Let's be honest, frying is God's cooking technique, okay? But, um, as they cool, right? If you fry in a liquid fat with a donut, it's
+
+[27:11] gonna taste greasy. And as you eat it, you'll get that greasy feeling on your mouth. What you want in a cold donut is for the oil to solidify for it to be a fat. So when you're frying donuts, you use solid fats, right? Now, when you're frying a potato chip, you need a liquid fat, because what you don't want is the waxy feeling of a solid
+
+[27:34] fat when you crunch on a potato chip. So no matter how stable a solid fat is, if you're frying a potato
+
+[27:40] chip, which is meant to be eaten cold, you use a liquid fat, right? So whether a fat is better or worse depends on the application. I'll give you an example of how hardcore this is. I don't know whether I've ever spoken about this on the air before if I, you know, if I have just turned down, you know, whatever, just stop listening. But listen, uh, If you remember, wow, which is Alestra, that, you know, came out, I don't know, about 20 years ago or something like that. Um, it was being licensed by the Fritolay Corporation and they were putting it into potato chips. Now, Alestra is a fat that you can't digest, right? It's modified fat that you can't digest. and they can literally turn any, any
+
+[28:16] fat uh, into oluster. They could modify it such that you can no longer digest it. Now, if you use a liquid-based olestra, right? So it's so it's unsaturated. It's, you know, it's a liquid at room temperature, actually, more importantly. And here's where it's going to get gross. I'm sorry people, but if you eat a lot of Olestra, there's liquid at body temperature, to put it politely, it runs straight through you and you can't stop it.
+
+[28:44] Hopefully you understand what I'm talking about, so I don't have to get more graphic with you. So the solution, right? And because of that, Alestra got a really bad name and nobody wanted to eat it and the product ended up dying, right? But the solution to that was they used a fat that had a very
+
+[29:03] high solid fat index, SFI, which is how you rate fats, solid fat
+
+[29:08] index or solid fat content. They had one that raised a very high SFI at body temperature. Now, the downside of that is that the potato chips that you made with it were extremely
+
+[29:17] waxy. So that when you ate them, they had a waxy mouthfeel. It was such a problem that they built special impingement ovens that would blow air down on the potato chips as they were coming out of the
+
+[29:27] line and that would blow the surface coating of Alestra off of the top of the potato chips. So it wouldn't have a waxy mouthfeel. So everyone who complained about the olestra chips that they could taste the olestra. It's not that you could taste the olestra, it's that you don't like potato chips cooked in a solid fat. Okay? So anyway, so that's that. And I've complained on the air many times about cooking
+
+[29:51] oils, and the fact that what you buy in the supermarket is basically just a refined,
+
+[29:58] bleached, deodorized fat. And that's basically, that's how they, you know, that's how it's termed in the biz, refined, bleached, deodorized fat. And they're not that tweaked out. So if you buy a liquid like that in the supermarket. They tend to be poor, you know, fairly bad frying oils because they're not that protected against oxidation. And they're just, they break down fairly quickly, no matter what the source is on those liquid
+
+[30:25] fats. The fats that I use to fry in are super tweaked out. So a lot of them are lightly hydrogenated, which means that they only take the double bonds out of the
+
+[30:35] most reactive species. So as you're hydrogenating something. You can actually hydrogenate only the most reactive species and therefore increase the oxidative stability of the rest of the oil. They also have all sorts of, you know, awesome stuff like antioxidants added to them. And consequently, commercial fry oil isn't like 2 times better. It's like 10 times better from a stability perspective than the crap that you're buying in the supermarket. Another thing that people don't think about. The freshest, and it has nothing to do with the question, but I just want to say it. The freshest oil isn't the best oil. You've all noticed that there's a sweet spot in frying. And the reason is, is as you're frying something. A layer of steam forms around your food, and there's a water, and also your food has a lot of water in it. And oil and water, as you all know, don't like to mix. And so you actually don't get that good a heat conduction with extremely fresh oil into food. Once the oil starts breaking down a little bit. Then the oil can, it forms its own emulsifiers and can really stick, really get in there and provide a lot more heat to the food. So oil that's been used a little bit, and you know, old school cooks know this, is actually a much better, more effective frying medium, faster transferring heat energy to your food than brand new oil.
+
+[31:53] And so real hardcore commercial people know exactly where that sweet spot is, and they adjust the systems, let's
+
+[32:00] say, in a potato chip line so that the potato chips absorb, which absorb a lot of oil, something like 50% of the
+
+[32:05] weight is, you know, oil. As they go through the fryer, they're absorbing just the right amount of oil so that they're adding fresh oil all the time and never have to drain
+
+[32:14] it and the oil is always staying in the sweet spot. How awesome is that? Anyway, let's take one more commercial break. Call your questions two. 718497, 2128. That 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:31] Every night you're listening to Russian lullaby by Plexophonic on heritageradionetwork.org. Just a plaintiff, little tune when baby starts to cry. Rock-aby, my baby. Somewhere there may be, I'll land that's free for you and me and a Russian lullaby. Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit
+
+[33:13] heritageradionetwork.org today. And welcome back to cooking issues. We have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Excellent. I was calling with a question about iced coffee. Okay. Um, I was wondering, is there any difference between all of the fancy cold
+
+[33:32] brew uh, coffee methods that people talk about now and just brewing coffee and then putting it over ice
+
+[33:40] afterwards? Oh, yes. Oh yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, look, I have to say, like, I'm not, uh, I haven't done a lot of personal experimenting with uh, cold brew techniques, but uh, I do know from, um, you know,
+
+[33:54] a lot, uh, brewing kinetics are really complicated and interesting.
+
+[34:00] And so a couple of things happen. When you're extracting at a higher temperature, you shift, uh, the different proportions of different things that you're leeching out of the coffee, okay? So that the hotter, and if you think about espresso. Let's just take espresso. the only thing about espresso because that's something I know a lot about. Even minor temperature shifts in something like espresso can radically change how the espresso tastes.
+
+[34:27] So we, you know, anyone who makes a lot of espresso knows that if your temperature is too cold, you get a sour shot because of what's getting extracted
+
+[34:35] out of. And if it's too hot, you get a bitter taste what's extracted out. So the temperature, then the temperature also radically changes how things are infused in general, like percolation rates.
+
+[34:49] Everything is changed by temperature. So, yeah, so you're definitely extracting different ratios of things when you're doing it hot versus cold.
+
+[34:57] Also, what you do extract from coffee isn't stable. So when it's extracted at higher temperatures, the coffee will go through different kind of, I don't know how you'd put it, like auto-hydrolysis or whatever, of
+
+[35:12] the flavor components and will change differently from one that had never been heated. That's what I suspect based on discussions I've had with, you know, coffee experts like Andrea Ily and stuff like that. is his words, not mine. So, uh, and there are plenty of people who love the cold brew coffee and plenty of people that don't, you know, uh,
+
+[35:31] and, you know, when I make an iced coffee, I make ice coffee with, I don't drink it, 1st of all. My wife drinks it every day. I like espresso. That's what I drink I'm trying to get into loving other types of coffee, but I'm weird. I a weird guy. So I love espresso, but when I make iced coffee, I make it from espresso and that's to my wife's taste, but there's no right or wrong here, but they definitely are
+
+[35:54] different. Okay, thanks a lot. Ain't no problem. Um, Okay, got a question from last week. I should address. Uh, Benjamin Petrazik writes in, uh, Dear cooking issues. In your Harvard lecture, you say that the home chef should get comfortable with Agar Agar. Any starter recipes either for a dish or for a drink. Okay. So if you're using Agars, another seaweed powder. I love it because you can get it in any grocery store by the powdered Agar, don't buy the flake stuff. The flake stuff's not as predictable. and just don't don't buy it. buy the powder stuff. It's just as natural. It's not any more, you know, more or less natural. get the powdered agar. Also, get yourself a decent scale, one that can do 10ths of a gram because you're going to, some of the agar recipes you're going to be
+
+[36:38] using, uh, are going to go down that low. So, Agar starts gelling in about the 0.2% range. So that's 2 grams per kilo, and you use Agar all the way up to
+
+[36:51] about, you know, .8 or .9 all the way sometimes up to one% by weight. So that's the range you're going to use. Agar, you want to disperse Agar. And remember, whenever you're using a hydrocoloid or anything, you know, that has that is a large molecule, you want to disperse it, i.e. get them all
+
+[37:09] separated so that they don't glom together before you try to hydrate it. So Agar, you put into cold liquid, you disperse it with a whisk or whatever, then you heat it up, you heat it up to the boil, and when it boils, simmer it for a couple of
+
+[37:21] minutes, and then you can let the temperature drop. Now, the main things you can do with it, or you can set a gel, and it's a cool gel because it can be reheated all the way up to about 70, 75 Celsius before it starts to break down
+
+[37:33] again. So that's pretty awesome. Two, you can blend, uh, uh, Agar gels, and I would use about a .8, you know, 8 grams in a liter, 8 grams in a kilo. 0.8% fluid gel. You set the gel and you blend it in a blender and it forms a puree. So you could take any liquid you want and form a puree that you can plate out into, you know,
+
+[37:53] that looks awesome. It looks like mashed potato on the plate, but when you eat it, it goes to a sauce, which is fantastic. That same fluid gel, you can make an orange juice fluid gel or
+
+[38:02] a lemon juice even fluid gel, and then use that to reinforce a whipped
+
+[38:07] cream, which is awesome. Or if you use a very small amount with something like lime juice or lemon juice, like 0.2,
+
+[38:16] you know, 2 grams in a kilo. That one, when you set that gel, you can use for clarification. So you take your juice, you set it. You can actually boil the agar in water and temper in the juice if you don't want to heat the juice as long as the numbers balance out right. Set it, break it with a wrist, whisk, put it into like a cloth napkin that you tie with string, throw it in a salad spinner, hit the salad
+
+[38:37] spinner a bunch. That's like, you know, poor man's centrifuge and you'll get clear, clarified liquid out. So that's just a couple of things you can do with Agar. You can drop, you can make little Agar balls, like you would, algernate balls, but they're solid by dropping them into cold oil, which is a technique. I know, pioneered, but I guess Sam Mason, 8 bajillion years ago, but Agar is just fantastic. It works with almost everything. Agar has weird interactions with gelatin and stocks, so be careful of that, and Agar can have weird interactions with things like cassis because of the high tannin levels in it. But Agar is just fantastic. And if you have any more specific questions on recipes, give me a holler. We've got one more tweet before the show wraps up looking for a ratio for fluid gel and cream to disperse out of ISI. Oh, all right. Well, that follows up on that. So, um, what you want is, it really depends. So if you do just a straight fluid gel, uh, agar fluid
+
+[39:30] gel or or a gel and fluid gel, and you're doing about, let's say, a
+
+[39:34] .8% fluid gel, i.e. .8% agar by weight, uh, or 8 grams in a kilo, uh, a straight fluid gel is
+
+[39:41] going to kind of look like weird alien slime when it comes out of an ISI. And whenever you're putting a fluid gel in the ISI, don't forget to put your finger over the tip and flick your hand down like you are trying to get the last bit of shampoo out of a bottle because
+
+[39:55] the fluid gel is going to be a gel until you put force on it, and then you can shoot it down to the bottom of the bottle and dispense it. So, uh, I, so then I like to add like about 50% cream usually, uh, or thereabouts. It depends on the punchiness of the flavor you want, but you just get incredibly dense,
+
+[40:11] uh, dense, uh, fluid gel out of it. Okay, so you're telling me, Jack, that I'm running out of time. So here's what I'm going to say. I had a question in also on fry oil on disposal and this Japanese fry oil disposal thing called Katamero tempuru. And, you know, tempura, I guess, meaning from frying, like, tempura. But anyway, I know nothing about it. The question was from Mark Barter. And so what I'm going to do, Mark, is look that sucker up and then report back to you next week. I also got a question, 2 questions in from Joel Gargano about which vacuum machine he's going to buy. You narrow it down to two, the Henkelman and the Sammic. I'm going to talk to him about, also about cutting boards next week, uh, because I have a lot to say about vacuum machines and how to pick a good vacuum machine, and also a lot to say about cutting
+
+[41:00] boards, because as usual, I have too much to say about this stuff, and that's why Jack tells me I run out of
+
+[41:04] time. But I got a tweet in that I just have to answer this week, Jack, if you'll let me on the way out. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack and Joe. I love apples, cherries, and peaches. Who doesn't? But ever since I was a kid, these fruits caused my mouth and throat to itch. I figured out that I suffer from oral allergy syndrome, which is an allergy to certain proteins and fruit, particularly in the
+
+[41:25] skin. Peeling the fruit solves the problem as just cooking the fruit to denature the proteins. I love eating these fruits fresh and peeling things like cherries is a huge pain. Do you have any suggestions on how to denature these proteins without actually cooking the fruit? Thanks for any advice. Huge fan of the show, Greg. Greg, I feel you. I feel you. When I was 30, 30 or 31. I suddenly developed an allergy to cherries that causes my throat to close
+
+[41:50] when I eat them in large quantities and causes itchiness. Certain apples also cause this to be. Thankfully, it hasn't happened with peaches yet. First of all, I don't know if you know this, but different Apple varieties have different widely different levels of the allergens in them that cause your throat to itch.
+
+[42:09] So certain apples you might be okay with and others you don't. And there's a scientific paper that was never written, you know, right, Susan Brown up at Cornell, who's doing the research. They know which varieties are more allergenic than the others, but I haven't been able to find public,
+
+[42:21] you know, research on it, publicly available research on it anywhere. But fresh cherries, which I can no longer eat. I think are kind of, you know, uh, possibly the greatest fruit in the world. I love them. And I can't eat them. And to me, cooked cherries are not even cherries. It's something else. It's like cherry pie filling or something. There's nothing like a fresh cherry. And I can't have them anymore. Um, yeah, I do not know anyway, but anyone. Anyone out there who has any solution to this problem. Some sort of anything that combined to these proteins so that Greg can have the stone fruits and I can have my cherries again.
+
+[43:02] Let us know. Cooking issues. Vicious vicious vodka. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[43:18] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:43] Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues 100th episode, live on the Heritage Radio Network. And refers featuring Bushwick Brooklyn. I'll back to Marnes and witness today, drinking some Prosecco, everyone. Just go around and around the chemistry again. Patrick Martin's round in the network. Happy anniversary, David Nastasia. Michael Harlan to Raquel. Food scene heritage radio network.org. Mr. Jonathan Sawyer, the Greenhouse Tavern, Cleveland, Ohio. Happy anniversary. We got Joe and Jack in the booth and Nostalgia the Hammer Lopez here, as well as Aaron from the Heritage Radio Network's development team. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Happy anniversary. We're so proud of you. our number one rated show with awesome to read all these amazing comments from people all around the world being like, you are their inspiration, and we're honored to have you in our humble little shipping container,
+
+[1:31] David. It is, in fact, a shipping date. like, shut up and play the Prosecco. It's not usually this late in the day when I have them. You made me wait till noon. What's wrong with you? Right? Were you drinking all day at Oktoberfest when you were there? Yeah, actually, you weren't, thank you. You were at Oktoberfest last week during the show, or flying back. You were encountering turbulence over Nova Scotia as we were having our show, right? Ultimate Aryan couple going back to Germany. Oh, gee. I'm not Arian. What the hell? She's like, half Mexican, half Ukrainian. How do you get Aryan out of that? Wow, crazy. right. going to take my beautiful eyes. you. Cheers. Cheers. Uh, uh, sobering note today. There was a woman over the weekend, 18-year-old in England, who has served liquid nitrogen at a bar, in a glass. I think that's what happened. You know, it's not totally in yet. And she lost a good portion of her stomach. It was taken out at the hospital because she either consumed actual liquid nitrogen or something that was so
+
+[2:39] hyperfrozen with liquid nitrogen that it caused irreparable damage to the lining of her stomach.
+
+[2:46] Now, um, giving a lot of a tweet action on this and a lot of people ask me about it. The fact of the matter is, is it is exactly akin to a cook taking a chicken McNugget out of a deep fryer with a ladle and serving the chicken McNugget with
+
+[3:02] the ladle full of deep fry oil. Uh, clearly not a good thing. It's a horrible tragedy that this has happened, but it's completely irresponsible practice and has nothing at all to do with liquid nitrogen.
+
+[3:17] I've used liquid nitrogen daily for years. Uh, you know, and and dealt with um, customers. We've had, you know, both the French culinary. And at Booker and Dax, everyone knows we never, ever, ever, ever serve actual liquid cryogens to
+
+[3:34] people. And we never serve foods or drinks that are so chilled that they could cause frostbite or any sort of damage on
+
+[3:42] consumption. And it's actually not that difficult. If you're a practitioner. It's not that difficult to judge whether something has gotten that cold or not. For instance, if your cocktail has become a rock solid. This sucker is too cold to deal with and may cause damage. If you see liquid nitrogen floating around on the surface of your cocktail, there are
+
+[4:06] issues and you should not serve it, it would be clear to any, any, uh, you know,
+
+[4:13] well-trained novice practitioner of, uh, uh, you know, liquid nitrogen use, uh, what to do and what not to do.
+
+[4:20] And it's horrible that this has happened. But we hear all sorts of crazy things. Someone sent me a BBC reports saying that technology has no place in bars and in kitchens.
+
+[4:30] buddies. The knife is a piece of technology or was back in the day. The blender's a piece of technology or was back in the day. Deep fryers are dangerous. The trick is knowing what you're doing and, you know, having some common sense and respect for the safety of your customers. You know, liquid nitrogen can be used for a bunch of gimmick BS in the bar, or it can be used, hopefully, as we use it, which is to good
+
+[4:54] effect to get the best, freshest infusions, for instance, by doing liquid nitrogen muddling at the bar or by chilling glasses, where it's clearly technically the most superior way to do it and has nothing to do with gimmickry.
+
+[5:06] So that's my little... Happy anniversary. Hey. And then a related question, got a tweet in from Ian Benz, who saw the demonstration we did at the Star Chef's
+
+[5:16] ICC, and he's like, how do you get this liquid nitrogen? First of all, I would go ahead and read the safety, the safety information that's on cooking issues blog. It formatted weirdly now. working on it, I know, but the information is still there. Secondly, you get it from a welding supply shop. The cheapest way to get it is in units of 160, 180 or 240 liters, in large doers. Those doers cost $2,000. I've purchased them used for a thousand, but you can also rent one for $35 a month, and we end up paying in those large
+
+[5:46] quantities, roughly uh, $70 a liter once everything's said and done, delivered. It's much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much cheaper than buying smaller quantities like 35 or 40 or 50 liters at a time where they really rake you over the coals for
+
+[6:01] the, for the, you know, fact of giving you a smaller amount. So any welding supply shop. You give them a $2000 deposit. They drop off a doer, do your safety thing. Don't buy the dumb hose that they want to sell, send you uh, or sell you to get the liquid nitrogen off. Just make something out of copper. I have all of the parts on the cooking issues website. All right, so that's the positive note about liquid nitrogen photos. Very nice. Anyway, it is one of a kind in all the world. It's an honor to have you. We'll leave you to be brilliant, but happy anniversary. Thank you so much. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Did you give Jack and Joe some Prosecco or did you tell you? We've got none. Holy crap. Holy crap. bad, right? Terrible. Terrible. Call in your questions live to 718-497-2128. 784972128. Uh, uh, those of you will notice that the, um, we did not have our wonderful cover of
+
+[6:57] vicious vicious vodka today, and that is because it turns out the law sucks.
+
+[7:02] Is that right Jack? I would agree with that. The law does suck. Yeah, because I love that cover. Well, you know, we're just, we're playing it super safe right now. We're going to look into our publishing rights here and get our teased crossed and eyes dotted. Did I mention that Amos Milburn is dead. I don't know. I mean, like, the rights are from, when like, when can we just use that stuff legit? That starts from the 40s. Is it possible that it was run out and that no one re-upped it? I think it's 100 years. Not sure. Got to check in with the lawyer? Oh my gracious. I just want my vicious vodka cover. I don't even want the original anymore. I want the cover. We'll be back. Alright. All right. Okay, question from last week, I did not answer from Joel Gargano regarding vacuum machines and cutting boards. Yo, Joel from New Haven again. Hey, New Haven, sweet, right? Nastasia sisters up in New Haven now at the Yale. Hey, you know, Yale got like nuked in the recent US news crap on them. crap on the US news and world crap on them people. Unless you work for them out there, in which case I love you. Okay. Looking into some new equipment. Need a workhorse of a vacuum sealer for my kitchen. I've narrowed it down to the Henkelman Boxer 52, which is a tabletop model made by Henkelman or the Samic SV 410 S, double steel bar in a vacuum machines
+
+[8:13] plus, but not necessary. Both these units have it, but I would like a large chamber to perform aeration techniques, uh, like
+
+[8:19] ouration of chocolate, uh, uh, to, like fitting a fish tub would be good in it. Um, I also like the idea of the VAC norm, external kit on the Samic, the seal up hotel pans of food rather than bagging it. I hold things over a few days normally in bags and it would save a cost for sure. What do you think? I'll take your opinion on Best Bang for my bucks under 6 grand in terms of size and durability. Feel free to give me what you'd buy. Lastly, any kind of non-wood cutting boards. I'm sick of the standard cheapy plastic guys and Jack, play more Pluto. Oh, wow. Look at that. Another vote for Pluto. Pluto. All right. Well, if you bring the bass next week, maybe we can just play some some live Bluto baseline. Some live Pluto baselines? No, we were going to do the patinka-tunka-ding stuff, right? All right, we need that too. Yeah. Anyway, okay, listen, here's the thing. For those of you that don't know what the hell just happened in terms of the question. Let me explain it to you. We're talking about chamber vacuum machines, things that let you do sous vide in a kitchen. They're relatively expensive. The real ones start at around 2 grand and go up to like six. When you're sealing something in a professional kitchen, and you're doing a lot of packages. What's very important is your ability to not spend all of your time at the vacuum machine. Someone who has a large sous vide program tends to have a bottleneck, a production bottleneck at the vacuum machine. Why? Because you had to put a bag in and you're running a cycle and the cycle takes longer than you'd
+
+[9:39] think, and you usually want to bag things portion by portion if you're going to serve them portion by portion, which means you have to run a bunch of cycles.
+
+[9:47] And so you're sitting there for sometimes a long, long time. It's not how long were we bagging that time that we did those cookies for the troops? Oh, long time. Hours? It was like an 8 hour shift of bagging alone, right? And so what you want to make sure is to spend the extra couple 100 bucks to get
+
+[10:04] 2 different seal bars in the machine, because it's going to chop your bagging time in half when you're doing
+
+[10:11] large things. So when companies usually say when they say dual seal, what they what they mean actually isn't that there are 2 seal bars, they mean that there's 2 seals on the seal bar itself, which is also important because you don't want the bags to leak.
+
+[10:25] I recommend getting seal bars, 2 seal bars, each one with a double seal and have
+
+[10:30] a one wide, normal seal and the other be a sever seal that's going to cut off the flappy parts of the bag because I detest having those flappy bag parts all over everything. Don't you hate that stuff? She hates it. Well, she hates bags in general and she hates anything flappy. She hates flappy things, hates, like, for instance, you know, weird fungal growth on leaves, any sort of flappy, leafy thing she
+
+[10:51] hates. Yeah? Yeah, true. Okay. So that's what I look for first. Secondly, I'd look for chamber size, as you state. You have to just go look at it. I don't have personal experience with the Henkelman. The Samic I looked at, and this is no offensive Samic people, if you're listening. They are wildly overpriced. Samic is wildly overpriced. In fact, I asked their rep. I said, hey, Samic rep. I don't remember his name. He was a European dude. I was like, how come your machine is so much more expensive than the comparable machine from somebody
+
+[11:23] else? And it wasn't like, uh, you know, this one will cook your breakfast for you or something like that. I didn't really understand why the salmic cost so much more at that time. I don't know if it still costs more or whether they bought their prices in line with mini pack and multivac. So the, you know, the ones that the 3 companies that I have the most experience with are Koch, which is the one you buy if you want to buy an American product,
+
+[11:45] Koch. And they're fine. I don't like the old cotch manual ones very much. I use that one at sambar, that's what they have. Multivac, which was the market leader and probably still is in the US. And they, for a long time, had kind of the best programming out
+
+[12:02] there and they had such a huge chunk of the market that they didn't do a lot of work to try and maintain
+
+[12:07] chef, like love from chefs. They didn't really care about it that much. And in fact, their smaller machines have a subpar chamber size that said their programming was pretty good and they're pretty robo. MiniPack has worked a lot on their programming recently. In fact, they have a lot of good programming in the new one. The problem is, is that sometimes it's a little too complicated. Like, you remember that machine. We were like, what the hell? do you make it go, right? But I think that they've worked on that. And mini pack has very, very good chamber size for what they do. Now, the thing that you asked about the VAC norms, right? First of all, in everywhere, but the US. What we call a hotel pan in Europe, they call a gastronorm pan, right? So I don't know why. We call them hotel pants, they call them gastronorm pants. Now, regular U.S. hotel pan. If you were to suck a vacuum on, believe me, I've tried this, if you suck a vacuum on it, it will crush, crush.
+
+[13:00] And so it's useless to use for vacuum sealing. So Samic has made or had made for them. If you look at it, it looks like a little zigurat. It's a hotel pan that like steps in it and the wall of the stainless is much thicker than a standard hotel pan.
+
+[13:14] And they also make like a, like a, like a Lexan lid for it with a seal on it so that you can suck a vacuum on the hotel pan itself, on this vac norm, this
+
+[13:24] heavy duty hotel pan. And these systems are great. Here's the secret. The system itself has nothing to do with Semic, right? So you can buy, and I've asked Cambro. I've asked all the people who make these things every year when I'm at the trade shows, no one knows who I am. It doesn't matter. So I go to the trade show and I'm like, hey, listen, have you why don't you make why don't you make a hotel pan here in the U.S. that can have a vacuum applied to it? And they always look at me like I'm some sort of an idiot, like I'm a moron, you know? Well, I mean, yes, okay, Nastasia, correct, right. fair, but I happen to be right on this one. And no one knows why it hasn't it hasn't been done. But you can just buy the VAC norms, which are absurdly expensive also from Samic, the lid and the
+
+[14:12] hose and stick it over almost any other vacuum machine company's stuff. So long as you can get to the hole where the air comes in and out of the vacuum chamber. So in a mini pack, that hole is exposed, which sucks most of the time because it means
+
+[14:29] that like when air comes back in, it can blow stuff all over the inside of the chamber, but it can be useful for something like this.
+
+[14:35] So don't think that just because you want a VAC norm that you have to go with Samic's machine, right? I encourage you to go to places that have these, look at them, play with them. Henkelman, is that the one that Mirvold recommends? I don't remember. He recommended a German brand that starts with an H, and I can't remember it. German or Austrian or someone who speaks German. You know what I mean? And I think it was Hanklman, and he loved it because of the programming, but I don't have any personal experience on it.
+
+[15:02] I hope this is a reasonable response. Now, on cutting boards. When you say that you're sick of the standard cheapy plastic, guys, if you're referring to the very hard polyethylene guys that come in different color, I hate
+
+[15:14] those. I hate cutting on them, I hate looking at them, I hate touching them. I hate the way that they spin around on my on my services, even if I put down the wet paper towel. By the way, everyone's worried about slipping of their boards. Just put the wet paper towel down. Does everyone not know that trick? Like a little wet towel, put it on your counter. Not so wet, so it's a slip and slide. You put the board on top of the board stays. Duh. Anyway, I mean, not duh. Well, if you, whatever. I'm just saying do that. It's terrible. Why did I say it that? Why did I say it does? Because I'm drinking Prosecco at 12, right? Okay. A little hyped up today. Sorry, folks. Okay. Now, the, there's, there's, there's 2 basic, uh, higher end, but made of plastic, because you specified you didn't want a
+
+[15:52] non-wood cutting board. I actually love wood. I love wood, and usually I scrub them down with salt at the end of the night,
+
+[15:58] and, you know, I'm not worried about it. There's those studies that show that, you know, that you're not going to get sick from using wood, but if you can't, because you're in a pro kitchen,
+
+[16:06] use wood. Here are the 2 ones that I've come across. The one that everyone seems to use that I know is a product called
+
+[16:13] SandyTough made by Technor Apex. Um, and they won't say what it is. They'll just say it's rubber, but they won't, I looked for about 45 minutes to try and find a composition of the rubber. Like what kind of rubber it is, but I could not find it anywhere. And the boards themselves are hideously ugly and crazily heavy. Uh, but they um, they work, they work quite well. I don't feel that they hurt my knives at all. They do discolor. They can be sanded, which is nice. So you can take a belt sander to him and sand him down when they go, but the thicker ones of those get really, really, really, really heavy.
+
+[16:49] They also, if you overheat them, will warp. And if you put them on accidentally on a burner, you'll get scorch marks where you put them on a burner, but most boards are like that. The other alternative is a material called high soft, which is polyvinyl Aeste PVA. PVA is the same stuff that you make. Elmer's glue is made out of. And you can buy boards like this and some, it's a Japanese use them called high soft. You can get them at Corin and places like that. They are very expensive. They aren't as heavy as, I think. I mean, I've never had them side by side, but my memory, because remember we had that when we did all the Ikigime tests on the fish, the corn lent us that giant cutting board for star chefs. You remember that? Anyway, uh, my memory of that giant cutting board is that it didn't, uh, it didn't weigh as much as the sandy tough boards. But they are some pricey business. They're very nice, and they felt soft on the on the knives, and they also, supposedly, they have a nice texture, their non-slip, and they, uh, they feel good. They feel good to cut on them. So I like it, and a lot of the sushi, the sushi folks use that. So I hope that helps. Got a John from Chicago on line 6 here. John from Chicago, you're on the air. Hey, hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. I had a couple questions for you. When you, uh, when you're cooking low temperature for insurance and cooling it down, I guess I just don't know that much about, um,
+
+[18:11] what's, what's okay to do, um, in terms of cooling stuff down and then just hearing the exterior in terms of, of, from a safety standpoint. From a safety standpoint. Okay, well, again, everything depends on what you're doing. If you, now, for those of you that, um, don't know, when we're saying low
+
+[18:29] temperature, uh, for insurance, we're just cooking the product all the way through to the minimum temperature, and then afterwards doing an actual full on uh, cook step on
+
+[18:38] it to get a nice uh, exterior, and they, cooking this way for insurance tends to produce things that taste
+
+[18:44] more uh, like their classical counterparts, but have a lot of the benefits of uh, low temperature cooking.
+
+[18:49] Okay. So everything depends and also depends on how much of a kind of a nice crust and cooking difference on the crust you
+
+[18:59] want. Does that make sense? So, I mean, if you cook a roast all the way through. so that it's pasteurized. If you're going to cook that long to pasteurize the whole thing, then you could chill it
+
+[19:09] down, and then you could chill it all the way down to fridge temp, and then it's it's, you know, it's done. So you can let it come up to, uh, you know, room temp before you do your finish sear and then throw it in a hot oven and you'll be fine. You know what I mean? But a lot depends on what you're going to do. Most of the time, we don't do a full cool down on a large item. Most of the time, we do a um, a partial cool down. Or, you know, like you could soak it for a while at a lower temperature. So for instance, Dave Chang with his chicken. He keeps his chicken at 58 degrees and then does a traditional cook for fried and does a traditional cookoff in the fryer from 58 and finds that he can get the nice crust without overcooking it if he's holding it at
+
+[19:57] that temperature. So a lot depends on exactly what you're doing, but from a safety standpoint, a
+
+[20:03] lot, a lot depends on whether the products have been pasteurized or not. Does that make sense? Yeah, so if I was doing a duck brass, let's say, for um, at 57 for 45
+
+[20:14] minutes. I should be cooling it down and to some extent so that I can so that I can cook and crisp up the skin, right? Yeah, okay, so that's a good specific. Duck breast, 57 for 45 minutes is actually enough to pasteurize. mean, okay, look. I feel totally comfortable with duck breasts at 57 for 45 minutes because duck breasts are fairly thin. They come to the temperature pretty quickly. There's no food code on Earth that allows you because they consider duck to be poultry, and so
+
+[20:44] they normally want you to hit the higher poultry numbers, which doesn't really make a lot of sense,
+
+[20:49] but, you know, that is what it is, but from an actual safety standpoint, I think you're
+
+[20:55] fine. What I do usually is I do 5745 and then I put them in the in the fridge. Let them cool down. And then when it's time to sear them off, I just do a higher heat than I, you know,
+
+[21:06] why just focus the heat directly on the skin and don't worry about the center of it. And they come out, they come out great. That's a classic use of low temperature for insurance. So, I mean, I would just chill them down in the fridge and you could hold them, you know, as you would any other cooked product. And then follow up it, because I never imagined getting stuff like a sous vide setup. What do you think is the next big thing for a home kitchen or what will be like the invention down the road that you really look forward to? Oh, well, oh, by the way, to go back, please, someone, because I don't have it in front of me. Double check before you say it's 100% safe on pasteurization. What the thermal death curves are of salmonella with, because that's what they're going to. what they're going to knock you for. I would look at all the bacteria of interest, like how they fare over 45 minutes. You might need to stretch it to an hour or an hour and 10 minutes depending on how thick your duck breast is and how long you think the internals take to get up to temperature. Just a safety note to look at it. I have it on the blog somewhere. You just have to go find it. I don't have it in my head. Okay, the next the next big thing. I would say, I mean, I want it to be the centrifuge. Uh, there's no, there's none out there yet uh, that is fantastic for uh, most people at home. I'm working on it. You know what I mean? I think, look, it took us 10 years for the 1st circulator under 500 bucks to hit the
+
+[22:24] market, and now we're there. You know, now now we have circulators for 350. Once you hit the 350 mark. Once you're below 500, you've now jumped into a whole new planet of
+
+[22:34] what's possible. My vote would be for a small, small, ultra customizable curing chamber that you could use for cheeses and for, you know, curing sausage.
+
+[22:48] That's a good idea. The issue with it is, remember, with a curing chamber, you're going to want to develop some sort of stability over time with
+
+[22:54] the, I mean, the smaller the thing, the more they're moved by individual batches, you know what I mean? And the less you get the effect of uh, kind of the stable uh, micro, you know, microflora and fauna of
+
+[23:07] a, of a, of a steady, big curing room. But it would be a good idea. And, you know, it could easily be made, people sell kits now, actually. If you go to Auburn instruments. You can go to them. I've never purchased one from them, but they sell kits or you can control the humidity and the temperature so you could turn any refrigerator or whatever into a curing chamber. But yeah, maybe the one that's marketed more directly, less DIY and more marketed directly. Okay, and then final thing and then I'll hang up. If you're looking to increase the flavor of a braise or a stew, what are some good tips to keep in
+
+[23:39] mind? Low temper, regular. A regular. Oh, well, I do your initial brown properly, get a lot of extra. you know, I usually start with a really, really flavorful stock. Uh, uh, you know, as my base boil, like do some pre-reduction on that. Um, you know, the stock with, with, uh, with the wine, basically, you know, a bourguignon sauce, uh, you know, thing, and then you use the right vegetable mix and pre-brown your meat before you go.
+
+[24:05] That's that's typically what we do. Any typical other ingredient had-ons that can kind of give you a boost? Well, I mean, if money is no object, you can make the stock with something really crazy, fatty and
+
+[24:17] gelatinous, like, like, uh, oxtail, but, you know, that's if you have money to light on fire. Okay. I'll look at the money. Thanks. All right, cool. thanks a lot These break time. Oh, break time. Cookie issues. You're listening to Baldy by Hunt Tronic on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[25:10] Wake up, wake up all day. What you do without me? Say a little, say a little...
+
+[25:25] Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[25:47] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano Hamms, our aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color.
+
+[26:03] The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[26:15] pork, optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a
+
+[26:20] delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surryfarms.com. I don't know that I'd characterize S. Wallace Edwards Hamms as sweet. No? No, they're delicious. What do you mean by sweet? not sugary sweet. No. I guess not. No, they're not too salty though. No, they're not, well, too salt. Here's the thing, right? When people are eating American country hands, what they do, in old school, the American way of eating country hams years ago, it's forever. It's because we've inherited our ham eating culture from the from the Brits, right? is that you take your cured hams and you cook them afterwards, right? And when you cook an American country ham, you turn it into a salt lick. So everyone's idea of American hams being too salty comes from this fact that they're horribly overcooked.
+
+[27:09] And as soon as you overcook it, it really is horribly, horribly salty. The other problem is Americans think that ham should come in thick, thick slices. And this is not because we're used to eating city hams and city hams you can eat in big, thick slices because they're pumped full of water and they're big and they're spongy, right? Whereas American country ham was never intended to be eaten this way. It was intended to be eaten in thin pieces, small things as a seasoning over a long period of time. Hence the old joke. What's the definition of eternity? A couple in a Virginia ham? Because they can eat that thing forever. Right? And it's a good way to preserve meat and have it go. So people who think that American ham is too salty just aren't eating it right. You don't agree with me, Jack? I do agree with you. Yeah. I've had the, uh, Suriano thinly sliced and then kind of chunks of it and it doesn't even come.
+
+[27:58] Yeah, it has to be. Th thin. And you know, and it is saltier than the, you know, European counterparts that we're used to, like prosciutto de Parma and things like this. Uh, but uh, American ham is its own thing. It is what it is, which is why, and I'll say it again, even though I probably said it 10 times on this show, Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards, even though I like
+
+[28:19] him and I love his ham, his, you know, the wigwam and the one that they do for with heritage meats that Berkshire wanted to do, is delicious. I wish he wouldn't call it Suriano. I wish he wouldn't reference a European ham at all because his family has been curing for 100s of years in, you know, in that area of
+
+[28:34] Virginia, and it's a product unique to itself and shouldn't be compared to anything else. It's delicious product. I love it, you know? I hate the fact that it's compared to a European product. Jack says nothing to say about this because it's a sponsor now. Look, it's like, whatever. you know, I like the product. It's a good product. If I'm going to throw in my ¢2 and don't get the country ham at Waffle House. Okay, that's fair. You know, the thing that people don't realize about country ham is that for many, many years, it was seen as a commodity product. And so country ham producers over the decades after World War
+
+[29:07] II, made a cheaper and cheaper product because it was seen that cost was the
+
+[29:12] driver. And they kept on losing their market to city hams and people were eating more and more of these spongy city hams. And so country hands are really dying out. And to try and stay ahead, people would try to, you know, make it cheaper and cheaper, make it cost less and less, push the cure time shorter.
+
+[29:25] And, uh, you know, a few people stayed around and made, kept on making the product the old
+
+[29:30] way and were really keeping, uh, you know, a national, uh, a national food cultural tradition alive, an important one, I think. And that's why years ago, uh, you know, actually when I 1st started,
+
+[29:43] I 1st started the, you know, museum of food and drink, one of the 1st things I focused on was American country
+
+[29:47] ham and how we're eating it wrong and how a modern way to consume it is to eat it the same way we eat prosciutto, which you're seeing now, a lot of places like uh, Ike
+
+[29:56] Sambar, who has a, you know, a ham program now. But years ago, people weren't doing this with American country ham. And I think that's what's the new way of eating it. And these ham producers, I think, now realize, you know, it's the Nancy Mahaffey's from Colonel Newsom, the Sam Edwards from S. Wallace Edwards,
+
+[30:11] realizing that it's kind of this new consumption mode is, you know, a good, good news
+
+[30:18] for country hams all over the country. I don't know, whatever. Country ham. Love it. Okay. Brian writes in for San Francisco about fruit in Hawaii. Hello, cooking issues posse. going to Hawaii over Thanksgiving and want to taste some yummy tropical fruit. Is there a Brogdale equivalent in Hawaii, i.e. a tasting farm? If not, which fruit should I be seeking out and where? Mostly being Kawhi. Now listen. Brian, I, sorry to say I have never been to Hawaii in my whole life, although my wife was born
+
+[30:46] there. It's one of the places I want to go. You ever been there, Stas? No? No? Be nice though, right? You can take a vacation. Nah. Anyway, I like, I hate, I've said this many times. I hate tropical paradise except for the fruit, right? And so, like, I'd love to go to Hawaii and try the fruit, but unfortunately, I don't have any real recommendations because I haven't been there. What I would do is I would go to the Hawaii Tropical Fruit Growers website and try to get in contact with them and see if there's anyone
+
+[31:15] they know. There's a really good website that I've used, well, not good from a design standpoint, not that we can talk because our thing is always broken, but she has
+
+[31:23] like he or she is. I dont know why I said she. don't really know who it is. But they have like this weird space thing in their website. Like, you know how like websites have like that weird space thing with the stars
+
+[31:31] in the Milky Way behind it? so it makes it hard to read and all the writings and big bold yellow stuff. You know what I'm talking about styles? And they're like rainbow writing and like weird pictures and stuff. Well, this website's like that, but aside from that, great information, great varieties of
+
+[31:43] fruit and also awesome, awesome links. Some of the best links on tropical fruits that you can get on the internet. And it's www.fruitlovers.com. And they have nursery and they sell fruit. Unfortunately, they're closed from October till December 15th. you're out of luck for Thanksgiving visiting those guys, but try to contact some of these people and find out where to
+
+[32:04] go. I'm sorry that I don't have any kind of a better information. Nastasia's like, yeah, you're useless, pretty much, right? Right. Tony Herring writes in from the mixing bar team in Brazil. Hello, Jack, Joe, Nastasia, and Dave. Congratulations on the 100th show. Wow, what a great journey. You have to. Is that, is that, that's obligatory check? I hear a 100 and I just I go right to applause. Okay, well, we'll try, unfortunately, later on in the show, we have something that's 100 degrees Celsius, and so you
+
+[32:34] better, you know, keep track of when it's 100 degrees and when it's 100th show, or it doesn't matter. Oh, we'll see. We see what happens. Thank you very much for all the hints, great ideas, inspiration, and good laugh. Keep up the outstanding work. Well, thank you very much. I got a few questions about Pectinex, which is an enzyme that breaks down Pectins. We use Pectinex Ultra SPL from Novoshymes. I've got a few questions about Pecnix for Dave. Not too long ago. I got some pectanex from modernist pantry who used to be a sponsor of our show, monitorspantry.com. But I haven't had much time to play with it. We've tried enzymatic peeling as described on cooking issues blog, but the results weren't great. The stuff didn't peel right, and limes oxidized very quickly. I can't recall the concentrations we used right now, but we sealed the fruit with quite a few cuts in the skin, uh, and uh, put the solution inside a jar under vacuum. The jar was put in a water bath at 40 degrees Celsius to activate the enzyme for quite a long time. Nothing remarkably really happened before the end of several hours. But by then the flavor of the fruit was gone. We did lemons, limes, tangerines, and kumquats. What other cool tricks do you recommend for us to try with SPL that don't require
+
+[33:33] centrifuge? Okay, um, limes aren't, I've never had any good luck with limes. What you want to do. I want to see what you said here. I wouldn't make cuts in the skin. Look, unless the, unless the actual enzyme is in direct contact with the white part, with the albedo of the
+
+[33:51] fruit. You're not going to get a very good result. So when we're working with it, if you want the peel, we peel the fruit in, you know, kind of nicely cut
+
+[33:59] peels and then bag those in a vacuum, bag them in a vacuum with the enzyme, right? Then after that's done, the white will be kind of gelatinous and disgusting. Nostasia won't touch it. And we take a toothbrush, and we run it with a toothbrush under running water, and all of the albedo can be kind of wiped away,
+
+[34:17] right? So that's what you do with the peels. Lime peel does not work very well. I'm just telling you right now. Oranges work well, Pomelo works well. Grapefruit works well. Lemons work okay right now for the fruit itself. The best possible thing to do is to break is to pull the actual fruit after it's peeled into at least halves and possibly
+
+[34:37] quarters and then bag it so that the actual enzyme can get to the membrane in between the
+
+[34:44] fruits. And that's when you can get the really good, you know, destruction from the enzyme. It's very difficult for the enzyme to pierce into the center of the fruit. It just does not work that way. You have to kind of break it apart. Other tricks to do with SPL. I know you're doing a bar, but if you want to do French fries, I use SPL for all of our French fry needs, right? Um, but I can't think of, you can also do clarify. Okay. Let's say you're doing Agar clarification, and your Agar clarification isn't working very well, right? Because you're using a puree. You're in Brazil. You're getting amazing purees. So you don't have a centrifuge, fine. But add our clarification, very difficult for you to do on very thick items, things like sour
+
+[35:23] sop, a.k.a. Guanabana. So what you want to do is treat the puree with SPL, right? Let the SPL sit for a long time. It's going to liquefy the puree and make it a lot more liquidy by breaking down the pectin. And then your yield when you're doing Agar clarification is going to go way up. So even if you're doing standard agar clarification because you don't have a centrifuge. You can use the SPL to help benefit your clarification results overall. Okay. Also, it tells the cocktail we spoke about, trying to rotivat the leftover liquid from peeling. Did you ever give that a tribe? No. You know what? There's so many things we need to try. We just don't have time. You ever notice that, Stas? How days just run away from us. Like, you know, you have a day and then like you wake up and then the day is gone. crazy, right? Okay. So no, I'm sorry, I haven't tried it. Red from Zeimer G, right? Same way. The problem on lamb. Hey, Dave, this is the 2nd time I've done lamb shanks with sous vide,
+
+[36:16] that's 62 degree Celsius for around 48 hours with half a percent salt added to each shank. The 1st time they came out fantastic with no issues. Well, this uh, well, this is only the 2nd time for the Shanks, I've been doing sous vide for almost 3 years and have never encountered what happened to these ones. I was in Whole Foods, they were selling Icelandic land. Did you know they made lamb in Iceland? No. New Zealand. Yeah. Iceland? But it's green there. Yeah, that's right. reversed. It's green, but I mean, I just never knew that Iceland was a big land place. You know, I know them from financial collapse, from Bjork, from, you know, from, uh, you know, power, from, uh, what's
+
+[36:50] it, what's it, geothermal power, all that? Lamb? I did not know. Makes sense though, right? Okay. I bought 6 shanks. Salt of them, show them and vacuum them. I put them in a bathroom within half an hour, all the bags began to bloat and float, which I'm going to use that from now on. Red, I'm using bloat and float. That's my new term for that. Bloat and float. You like that? Be your new band name. Bloat and float. Did that tell you that, like, I'm never going to do this? I was talking to Jeremiah Bullfrog, one of our chef friends from Miami. And what we need to do is start a website where it's kind of like,
+
+[37:19] I don't know, like Craigslist or something, but it's just lists of good band names that we're never
+
+[37:24] going to use. And then when people use them, they just check it off and then you know it's used already. So it's just like a huge list of band names or, you know, they could use it for whatever, but mostly it's band names and then like we're like, oh, bloat and
+
+[37:35] float. We just add it to the list. And then someone's like, bloat and float, thanks. And they check it off. You know what I mean? It's a great idea. Jeremiah's awesome too. He was just here in New York. Yeah, he's a good man. So one of you guys going to make that website? I'm never gonna do it. Oh, put it on the list. Bloat and float. All right. Okay. bags begin to bloat and float. So not knowing what happened, I took them out of the bath and place them in an ice bath and chill them down for about an hour and put them in new bags. These 2 began to bloat and float, so I placed a screen on them and weighted them down in the bath. The only thing I can come up with is that the shanks were off gassing or something. They were not sitting around in the meat case. They came right out of a sealed box and appeared to be as fresh as possible with no off aroma. You never know those Icelandic people. You never know what they've added to it. Just kidding. As I'm typing this email there, they're still in the bath, so I cannot comment on the outcome. I just turned them and the bags are not as bloated as before. So I'm still wondering what's happened. By the time your show airs, the shank will be done, and I will follow up with an additional email to comment on their taste. Which has already happened. I appreciate your passing... wait, wait. The lamb shanks came out fine. For the most part, all the shanks came out of the bath, indicating that they were still under a vacuum. I have still never encountered this type of initial bloating in the bag, so any assistance would be appreciated. Read. Okay. What's interesting about this problem is that your bloat happened in the 1st 45 minutes. Usually, bad bloat, i.e. bacterial bloat happens after several hours. And the reason for bacterial bloat is if you put a bunch of bags together and you haven't, uh, you know, pasteurize the outside of those bags first, there's bacteria in it, and because the bags are jammed together, it can take hours for the surface temperature in those bags that are clustered too tightly to get up to temperatures where they're killing bacteria, and you get lactic acid
+
+[39:14] bacteria, usually growing in those bags, and they inflate, and they puff up, and when you cut them open, they smell awful, like blue cheese mixed with sauerkraut mixed with
+
+[39:23] death. They're horrible, right? You smell those, right? Styles? Yeah, horrible. Which is why typically if you don't know why a bag is bloated, you probably shouldn't eat it. Now, if a bag bloats immediately, i.e. immediately, within 45 minutes or so of putting it in, you're dealing with most probably not a bacterial
+
+[39:40] problem. You're most probably dealing with thermal expansion and release of air. Now, where is this most likely coming from? think about it. It's 2 places it can come from. One, the bones in your lamb in your lamb shank are hollow and contain air. If you want to bag something with bones like lamb shanks, you're going to want to suck a serious vacuum on it. So if your product wasn't that cold when it went into the vacuum chamber and you weren't able to suck a hardcore vacuum for a long time on that bone, there's
+
+[40:11] going to be trapped air inside of that bone. And then when you vacuum it, uh, that, when you vacuum it, the air is going to be still there. And when you heat it, the air is going to expand out of the bone and puff up your bag, which happens all the time when
+
+[40:24] you when you do things with bones and bags, which is why when you have a bone in the bag and you want to do cooking, you have to suck a
+
+[40:31] serious, serious vacuum on it. A lot a lot longer than you would in a normal kind of vacuum ceiling scenario. So that's, you know, keep it cold and suck a good vacuum on it. The problem is, if you're going to do that on something like a chicken bone, the red crud on the inside of the bone gets sucked out and goes along the meat and it never, you know, turns unread.
+
+[40:51] And so you get this unappetizing. basically inedible for most people because visually they can't get past it. Red mark called persistent pinking around the outside of the meat. Okay. So the other problem is, is perhaps you add veg in with your lamb shanks, right? And the veg wasn't fully cooked. Not only, there's 2 things. One, vegetables aren't going to cook at 62 degrees Celsius, even if you left them in there for weeks, so carrots are going to stay crunchy for the entire time. But uncooked vegetables have a lot of air in them. And if you don't suck a long vacuum on it, that trapped air inside of those uncooked vegetables will also come out when you're
+
+[41:22] cooking and cause the bag to bloat. My guess is 90%. I'm 90% certain that that is the reason this has happened. What do you think? Good answers, yes. Good answer. Good answer. All right, should we take one more break? No. No? Keep going. You have like 5 minutes. What? You have a call at one. Oh my god. Okay. People on air do not give a rats behind about what calls I have at one. I don't care about. All right. Fine. Tom Fisher writes in. Regarding rib fat. Recently, I tried polycience's recipe for low temperature ribs, and while the flavor was amazing, my guests were a little freaked out by the unrendered fat. Is there any way to do a combination of high and low temperature cooking to get the best of both worlds? I was looking at picking up a CVAP. CVAP is, um, well, explain a minute. I see that for my kitchen and I notice that Winston sells both cook and hold ovens and hold and serve drawers. Both are described as having the same theory of operation. What's really the difference between the two? Thanks for all the great information, Tom Fisher. Now, CVAP is a holding oven almost like an alto sham, but it has a Bain Marie in the bottom, and the Bain Marie heats water to a very accurate temperature. And so the whole notion of the CVAP is that they can control the difference in temperature between the water bath and the air
+
+[42:29] temperature and therefore set the humidity inside of the oven. And so by properly setting it, you can keep all, you know, any kind of food you want at exactly the right condition. It was invented for holding fried chicken for, it was invented by Winston from Winston Industries for Colonel Sanders from Kentucky Fried Chicken. And so you can keep crunchy things in it by setting the community level right. You can keep, you know, you can keep moist things in it. In low temperature cooking, we typically set it to 100% humidity and they're fairly accurate, which is why we do it. The difference between the cook and hold, and the whatever the other one is called. Is it the cook and hold ones versus the hold and serve ones have more power. And so they're meant to bring the temperature of a food item up, cook it, and let it
+
+[43:13] go, whereas the hold and serve ones have less power, and they're not designed to do the actual cooking.
+
+[43:20] Now, with low temperature cooking, they're adequate, right? If you're actually going to try to, you know, mimic some of the effects of a combi oven by doing roasting, then you need the extra power from a
+
+[43:31] cook and hold. Hope that helps. I don't know what the cost difference is because I've never had to research the cost difference in it. Okay. Michael Sanders writes in from England about boiling baths. Good afternoon, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for doing the show every week. Thank you. Well, thanks for listening. I'm a longtime listener of the podcast. I'm in London, so work commute prevents me from listening live. And I regularly revisit the old episodes and eagerly look forward to a new show each week. The enjoyment factor aside, the show has improved the quality of the food I cook at home and has introduced me to some great working practices, products and techniques. That's nice. That's very gratifying. That's my favorite thing to hear. Thank you. The reason for my email is to ask a question regarding a recent eBay purchase.
+
+[44:10] I have acquired a grant, SBB 6 boiling bath, for no reason other than it was going to, for a bargain price of £30, $50. Can you believe that £30 is 50 bucks. I was in England the other, like very recently, and, you know, everything is the same price tag there, but it's in pounds. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like, you know, man, it used to be worse. Tony C. Tony Cugliar, 6'9 Cobra Row, Condiaro. He used to come here and our money was like Monopoly Mart aim. He would like laugh in my face and like light money in front of me because, you know, our money was so worthless compared to
+
+[44:42] their brave money anyway, there's nothing to do with it. Okay. I thought there might be a culinary application for which the grant boiling bath is useful. I was hoping that it may be useful in its current working state or that I may be able to recalibrate the unit to a lower fixed temperature, perhaps to use it as a water bath for the preparation of vegetables, freeing up a separate circulator for the preparation of the protein at a lower temperature.
+
+[45:01] How do you rate my chances of being able to hack the unit to do this reliably? If this is unlikely to produce a successful outcome. Can you think of a use for a water bath at a 600 degree C temperature? Secondly, what would you recommend as good practice for cleaning of lab equipment purchased from eBay? This unit is new, but all the same, I would like to clean it just in case. Plus, I'm currently bidding on a number of other units from laboratory sales, and I'm unsure what use they may have had in their previous lives. I know that you have covered cleaning on previous shows, but was hoping that a 32nd recap may be possible. Keep up the good work. My girlfriend and I are coming, are looking forward to visiting Booker and Dax bar next year where we are in New York for a food and drink tour time to coincide with the 1st New York Formula One race.
+
+[45:41] Thanks, Michael Sanders. Okay, great question. Great question. So I looked up your boiling bath, and unfortunately, the boiling bath doesn't work on a
+
+[45:50] thermostat, because it's literally boiling. So the knob on the front of your boiling bath, just all it does is it modifies how much power is being introduced. So the way you're supposed to use this thing is you fill it up with water, you turn it on, you crank it. Then when it starts boiling, you turn it down until you're just maintaining a boil, so you're not using extra energy. Cool thing about your unit is that it has a little hose that you can attach to it to add water to it without having to go do, you know, anything
+
+[46:17] else and it has a drain. So these are 2 very, very useful things. So it's 6 liters. So it would make a good, probably, you could probably, uh, you know, make a jury rigged, uh, pasta cooker out of it because it's boiling and it's got a drain, so you could probably use that drain to get the starch off the top of
+
+[46:34] the, of the pasta thing, keep it going. It would also be great for vegetables, even at 100 degrees C because you're not going to have a lot of things touching the bag that could cause it to break.
+
+[46:43] So it'd probably be good for sous vide vegetables at that temperature. If you want to treat it as a water bath. The problem is, if you're going to do a lot of low temperature work with it, at only 6 liters, it doesn't have that large
+
+[46:54] capacity. And so you're going to have some issues with it. If you're trying to do large amounts of cooking it. That said, if 6 liters is big enough, and you really want to turn it into a 2nd circulator, all you need to do is buy any one of the PID rice cooker conversions that use a
+
+[47:12] thermocouple, and you plug, you know, instead of plugging this sucker into the wall, plug it into the
+
+[47:17] PID rice cooker converter, put the, you know, the temperature probe in, and now you have a thermostatically controlled water bath, just bypass the controls on it entirely.
+
+[47:25] Um, you know, the only issue there is that these water baths that you have are unstirred. And so if you want the actual, you know, total even temperature from top to bottom, you'll have to throw an aquarium pump or a bubble are in there that's pushing some air in to move the water around. None of it's complicated. It's all easily done. It's just a question of how much you want to do. I would love to have a, you know, something that could boil that's not on a fire if I'm doing vegetables because I don't really see a lot of difference in cooking a vegetable at
+
+[47:51] 85 C or at 100 C. The, uh, you know, the main difference is it's difficult on a stove to do vegetables at
+
+[47:58] a 100 and always make sure that there's no flame because, you know, I'm working this, there's no flame that's going to touch the side of my bag,
+
+[48:05] right? And to all these, make sure that you're going to have the right level of water in there. So if you have this cool water input that makes it sure that your level is always right and there's no flame touching the sides where the bag is, it could be very useful for doing things like veg. What do you think, Stas? We're not done. It's 48 after, Stas. Crazy head. Well, we're supposed to go to 45. So what? So buttons. I'm not even done with this question yet. I will be. Hey, for the record, for everyone on the air. I have a telephone call at one o'clock that Nastasia is concerned with because it's possible that I'm going to be on air with her idol, Hoda. And she wants a good 10 minutes of me having mellow time to think about what I'm going to say to
+
+[48:46] Hota's producer. Goodbye to CNN. You have to say goodbye to John. They don't have to leave during the court. Am I going to set the call for the entire for like the next hour and a half? Anyway, so I'm going to finish this question. So about cleaning equipment. You want to make sure it depends on what equipment is going to be used for. Anything that might have touched a biological agent, like a centrifuge. You want to make sure that you treat it with a very hardcore bleach. And then after you hardcore bleach it, really hardcore bleach it, I try to pressure cook the stuff to sterilize it. And then I treat it with bleach again. Equipment that's going to have inorganic chemicals touching it like rotovaps, things like this that might be a problem. You want to add, you know, we bought some hardcore glass cleaner club. What was that stuff called? So, alkanox, alkanox. Alkanox, uh, cleaner, uh, that, you know, strips a bunch of stuff off and
+
+[49:35] just you're going to have to rinse it like a 1000000 times to get the stuff off. You just really want to make sure you get everything off because there can be some really, really, really, really nasty business.
+
+[49:43] Things that can't be, there's certain things that like can't really be fixed that well, things that might absorb different chemicals, like rubbers and
+
+[49:51] stuff. Sometimes with those, you're better off totally replacing them. That said, uh, you know, I always err on the side of of overcleaning and making sure that everything is eaten or melted off. If you have metal, you can do alternate, you can bleach, and then don't do this to aluminum, but if you can do bleach, and then you
+
+[50:08] could do oven cleaner, because oven cleaner is going to eat any, you know, proteinacious stuff that's cone on it. So I just recommend going really hardcore on that. Okay. And one last question in on the, on the Twitter from, uh, what was it from? From Clefts. At Cooking Your Shoes, does adding oxidized oil to non-oxidized oil caused
+
+[50:30] a non-oxidized oil to oxidize faster than it would alone, or is it linear? Now, uh, you know, I had never really, stupidly, I'd never really thought about this problem before. Um, but, you know, it makes sense that that what you're saying is is right. However, I know, and I said on the last week show, which is maybe what prompted this, that the way that you do this professionally and in continuous frying is to achieve a certain level of oxidation, keep it constant by constantly adding fresh oil to
+
+[50:59] it, and you reach kind of a steady state where the oil stays the same, things like potatoes, absorb the exact amount of oil that they
+
+[51:05] need, and everything goes in a steady state. But I don't know. Here's what, you know, I know that what affects oxidation rate in oil is the presence of oxygen and the presence of metallic ions, which is why you don't salt things, for instance, before you put them in
+
+[51:17] oil typically because it's going to increase the rate at which your oil breaks down. It's not really important if you're not going to use the oil for a long time or if you're pan frying, but in deep frying, it can be quite important. But I recommend that you read Egan Press, go online, you can get downloadable PDF of their edible fats and oils book. is very short. It's very good. and I go back and read it, read it quite a bit. And here's a quick paragraph from them on flavor, in order, flavor and odor. Organalyptic evaluation of oils is an empirical test, and there's no substitute for an experienced analyst. That experience analyst is going to be you. And the way that I test my oils constantly is see whether or not they're any good is I get bread, regular white bread, totally neutral white bread. Why? because it's porous and soaks up oil, heat the oil up, and then put the bread in and fry off the bread a little bit. Don't need to fry it long. You don't want it to brown or anything like that, pull it out and taste that bread. If that bread tastes good, if that bread tastes neutral, then you're good to go. And if it doesn't, that oil is no good. And that's literally the test that I run whenever I'm wondering whether my oil is on the edge or not. And it's really very, very sensitive. You know, your palate is very sensitive and it's what you should follow. If you want a more scientific explanation. Go to this, go to this paper. It's available free on the web. It's called Mechanism and Factors for Edible Oil Oxidation by
+
+[52:36] Eunich Koey and David B. Min. Eunich Koe is a rough name to have. That's this week in cooking issues. Come back next week, our 100th episode.
+
+[53:00] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Heritage Radio Network is now on Stitcher. Listen to us on your iPhone, Android phone, Kindle Fire and other devices with Stitcher. Stitcher is smart radio for your phone. Find it in your App Store or at stitcher.com. Stitcher Smart Radio, the smarter way to listen to radio.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foodsmarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:47] Hello. We on? Yeah. Wow. We didn't have any song. Joe, what's up? Uh, trying out a new song and uh, maybe that one won't work. I think it's fine. It's just, you know, I didn't, I thought that was part of the whole, you know, where Heritage radio network. That's the thing. It's like you need a break between the Heritage radio network and the cooking. Am I right? Am I right? Sure. So let's start this fresh people. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Andre. hosted cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage
+
+[1:17] Radio Network, broadcasting in a container in the back of what is it? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Live as always, with Nastasia Hammer Lopez, and with Joe in the engineering, with no Jack today, huh? Now Jack's feeling a little sick. Yeah, what kind of sick? I'm not exactly sure. It's some sort of flu type thing. Uh-huh. Is it the kind of flu you can track from drinking all night? Well, I'm just kidding. Let Jack Tweed in or something. Jack is a very responsible man. at least about that, so I'm sure that's not it. Anyway, call your questions live too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, I thought actually uh, Nastasia was going to be late because she had to run around like an incompoop today because we have an
+
+[2:00] event. We have an event later this afternoon. What is the event we're doing anyway? It's for the American new product stuff. What the Stewart? American new product stuff. What's that? New products that Martha Stewart likes. That happen to be American? And we're hoping out? one of those products that she likes? I'm just kidding. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Apparently, we're supposed to dress in caterers uniforms. Is that correct? All black. All black? So all the only requirement is all black. So sequins that are all black. So if anyone out there knows a source in Manhattan, lower
+
+[2:35] Manhattan preferably for, you know, not to spelt male sequined unitards, please tweet them in so that I can go purchase my sequined
+
+[2:45] unitard. Uh, you know, Booker and Dax became recently uh, obsessed with the word Unitard. And for that, they were way ahead of me. I didn't become obsessed with Unitards and the word Unitard until possibly college. Right? When I 1st started in bands, one of my dreams. was to have, we were in a band called Jurassic Yellow Plastic was to have a yellow sequined unitard and a velvet, a velvet coat with lapels that were about, you know, a foot and a
+
+[3:12] half taller than my head that went up. I was big on Bootsie Collins and that kind of thing. Anyways, on to today's question. So, Nastasia, I realized that last week, I started answering a question, and as is normal for someone like me, totally went completely off base and never actually answered their question.
+
+[3:27] So I apologize to Tom Fisher. Tom Fisher asked, recently, this is not recently anymore because it's 2 weeks, 2 weeks, whatever. I recently tried polyscientist recipe for low temperature ribs. And while the flavor was amazing, my guests were a little freaked out by the unrendered fat. Is there any way to do a combination of high and low temperature cooking to get the best of both worlds? Now, I answered the 2nd question that he had, which was about SeaVass, but I never answered this. It's kind of an important question when it comes to low temperature cooking. The answer is no, you cannot get the best of uh, well, you can't get the best of both worlds in that way. Low temperature cooking. Uh, never renders the fat or the collagen out of uh, out of the meats. And so there's positives and negatives to this. One, the meats don't get as much gelatin and all sorts of broken
+
+[4:13] down, you know, collagen, which is gelatin. throughout the throughout the piece of meat in a low temperature cooked item because the stuff, it turns tender, but it stays in place. And so if you have a portion of something that you're, in a traditional
+
+[4:28] braise, might get a little moistened by that, by that, that render stuff coming out, it's not going to happen in a low temperature. On the other hand, uh, the the benefit of uh, it not rendering out. Well, the other benefit of it not rendering out is, as your guests found out, they can be a little bit freaked out by what they think are big chunks of fat, some of which are big chunks of soft, but
+
+[4:50] unrendered connective tissue. But the benefits are that unlike a regular traditional braise, you can take most and only with shorts. There's a lot of bones, you know, it's much harder. But you can do a lot of fabrication work on low temperature cooked stuff. So you can get very, you know, nicely sliced pieces of low temperature cooked things like ribs that are very tender. that you can never do if you were doing a traditional cooking technique because they would just shred into pieces,
+
+[5:16] right? So, um, so the answer is no, uh, but you, you know, you can't kind of get the best of both worlds because if you rendered that out, you'd be cooking it to such an
+
+[5:25] extent, you might have just done low temperature. I mean, you might as well just done traditional cooking from the beginning. There's no reason to do the low temperature step. So what I would say is, is that use each technique for its own, for its own best purpose. So low temperature ribs, great for doing small portions that
+
+[5:40] are, um, sliced very nicely and sauced and served as part of plated dish components, right?
+
+[5:45] But if you want rendered out, you know, stick to your ribs, ribs, like, you know, you know, grandma style, you know, which I love,
+
+[5:53] then, you know, go go traditional, right? Nastasia actually usually, I think, prefers the traditional one on that, right? Although I don't think they're, I really, honestly, and I've said this a 1000000000 times and I'll probably say it, you know, forever. There's no better or worse. It's not better or worse. you know, can you achieve the result that you want to achieve? So anyway, Tom, sorry about that. Another thing I think I mentioned last week that we had a question about cutting boards, and I talked about cutting boards, I'm just curious out there, if anyone out there has tried these weird multi-layer cutting boards that are coming out of Asia now, where
+
+[6:22] it's, it's like literally just stacked sheets of thin cutting boards that are
+
+[6:27] semi-laminated into one thick board, and then when the top gets dirty, instead of cleaning it, you shove a knife into it and peel the entire top layer of the board
+
+[6:36] off. You ever seen this, nastasia? Oh, that's cool. It's cool, but it's weird. It makes a real, you would hate it. You know why? It makes a something wrong with you noise when the, when the, uh, when layers are separating. It's like... My mustachia hates that because it makes her think of some sort of disease peeling off. I mean, I've made that kind of noise in the kitchen before, not peeling a disease off. Right? Not for that reason, but and you hate that kind of noise, right? hate your breathing. See, now that's classic nostalgia. Now, for those of you out there who say, uh, Nastasia, she give it to me like I give it to
+
+[7:12] her, see, that's the only time on the air, she's ever actually said something like she would normally say to me in, uh, you know, in
+
+[7:18] in the real world, just so you guys get a, get a picture of, of, uh, what's going on. Okay, very nice. Okay. Alvin Schultz tweeted in with a couple different questions. One was, have we ever tried the technique of cryo shocking? So cryo shocking is something that was pioneered, or I should say advocated by, I mean, I don't know who actually came up with it, shucking oysters by putting the oyster into liquid nitrogen for a brief period of time that kills slash messes up the musculature of the oyster, such that when
+
+[7:49] they warm up a little bit, so they're not frozen, you can get a knife in there and you don't have to worry about popping the belly and you don't have to worry about getting little bits of shell into your
+
+[7:59] oyster. Cry shocking. Now, I have to admit, you know, Chris, Chris Young, and, you know, Nathan, Maxine, and those guys. By the way, you know, none of that team together anymore. The whole team split up. The whole original modernist, like all 3 of those guys, they're all gone in their own separate ways at this point. end of that era. beginning of the new era. Uh, so the uh, cryo shucking, uh, I've never had much luck with it. They are big advocates of it. I've spoken to Nathan about it and I've spoken to Chris Young about it. I forget exactly how many seconds you put it in. The idea is not to freeze the oyster all the way through, just to shock the bejesus out of it so that I guess kill it, but so that it, you know, you can, so that it relaxes enough for you to get your knife in without having to put too much force in it.
+
+[8:40] Because when you're putting the force in it that you get the, um, that you get the problems of chipping shell and all that. Now, uh, Nils and I tried it years and years ago, uh, years and years ago, and, you know, we just never had much luck with it. We always maybe we overfroze it. I don't know, but we never, we never really, we never really were too
+
+[8:58] jazzed about it, but, you know, Chris is enough of an advocate of it that I think it bears me trying it, again, at some point.
+
+[9:05] The idea is to freeze it just long enough to get it to relax after it thaws, but not enough to alter the texture by freezing it. You also want to make sure that you put them cupside down when they're thawing, so you don't lose any of the awesome precious juices when you cry a shuck. But shucking oysters is a huge problem. So anything that makes it work out better is probably a good thing to do. Should I share the Nick Wong story, even though I'm probably not supposed to? Dave Chanis, listen. Right? So Dave Chang, Dave Chang is a huge huge on oyster shucking. In fact, we saw him not that long ago in an oyster shucking contest at some where like all of the Momo cooks were racing each other to see who could shuck oysters fastest.
+
+[9:46] And so Dave Chang hates, there's 2 things. There's there's 3 things he hates about oyster shucking. One, if you're slow and puny, he hates that, right? He hates if you pop a belly. That's akin to him, you might as well just punch him in the face as pop an oyster belly. Like he, like that, that would make him punch you in the face. So we're going back to last week's like what would cause a food stuff that would cause your friend to punch you in the face. If you shucked an oyster in front of Dave Chang and pop the belly. And the other one is if you served a customer, an oyster with bits of broken shell in it, that would also,
+
+[10:15] like, that's, like, you know, infinite tirades from Dave Shang. So there was an extern years ago that Nick Wong saw do this. actually, who's so frightened that he saw this. Nick stopped him, so it didn't go out to the customers, as far as I know. So I don't want anyone to think that it went out to the customer, saw the dude rinse an oyster under the water to make sure there was no shell in
+
+[10:36] it. Can you imagine that? Even I might lose my cool on that. I mean, it takes a lot for me to lose my cool at anyone other than Nastasia. Like, people think I get worked up, but, like, honestly, like, to actually lose my cool, it's someone I don't know, that takes a lot, right? You ever see me lose my coolness, someone I don't know? don't think so. No, right? No. anyway, cry is shocking. The other question Alvin had was. He's having problems with this Rotiv app. Road of App is rotary evaporators. used for low temperature, uh, Well, it's a distillation rig that you use in laboratories, and it's got a couple of benefits. One, it does things at low temperature because it's under a vacuum, and when you put things under a vacuum, you can boil at lower temperatures, which means that you don't have any heat damage to very fragile
+
+[11:18] flavors, like herbs. The other thing is, the other 2 things is it's very gentle, very gentle, not just from a heat standpoint, but just gentle in terms of it doesn't have
+
+[11:28] any a lot of bumping and boiling. So it's nice that way. And two, three, it happens under a vacuum. And since it's under a vacuum, there's no oxidative effects when you're doing it. So it's very good for a number of things like that. But if you're going to do legal evaporation, even, even illegal evaporation, I advocate using a cold finger because you want the maximum difference between your condenser and your boiler to get the maximum recovery, a flavor of
+
+[11:53] volitals from things like herbs and whatnot. Because remember, we're not doing primary distillation with a rotary evaporator, we're not trying to get rid of impurities, like you would with a column still. So we're trying to get maximum capture of our stuff back in a rotary evaporator, typically. So we want really cold things. So I use liquid nitrogen. Uh, but because I have a lot of it, uh, in a thing called a cold finger condenser. But Alvin's using, he says he's using dry ice and acetone, and he says that the condenser's getting saturated. First of all, I do not recommend using dry ice acetone
+
+[12:22] in food applications because I don't want acetone anywhere near
+
+[12:26] the stuff I'm working with. And also you're going to get high like a kite if you have a whole boatload of acetone sitting around and it warms up and starts volatilizing. I just wouldn't, I don't really like using acetone in the kitchen, so I wouldn't do that. I would use dry ice alcohol. You can use denatured alcohol, as long as you're sure it doesn't get anywhere near your food, or you could pick up
+
+[12:46] some like Everclear 195 or something like that, and that stuff's fine. I would use that instead of acetone. The other thing is, is that, uh, the dry. I mean, dry ice, this is a classic lab way to do it, dry ice and
+
+[12:58] alcohol, but for some reason, Anastasia, back me up on this. Whenever we do events where we try the dry ice in the condenser, it never seems to be as
+
+[13:06] smooth or work as nicely as when we do the liquid nitrogen in the condenser. For some reason, I'm not sure why, but we always get a lot more boiling and it's just, it's always a lot messier and things seem to get stuck more. And for some reason, we dry is extremely powerful. And I tend also to, for some reason when we do the dry ice alcohol, it tends to gunk up my vacuum lines more because when you're getting, when you oversaturate
+
+[13:30] and something that's cold like that and you start getting vapor, moisture, vapor, or distillate vapor in your vacuum line or near the point where the vacuum line attaches to the condenser, it can clog up, once it clogs up, your thing gets saturated out, you can't get a vacuum level
+
+[13:45] in there anymore. And the only way to fix it is to is to quickly put a blast of air through your vacuum line to clear it out by using the differential
+
+[13:53] and pressure. But when you do that, then, you know, you have all sorts of problems. So once that happens, it's very hard to get your distillation really right back on track. And, uh, so I find that typically, one way to stop that from happening is to always start your distillation before you chill
+
+[14:11] your, uh, before you chill your thing down, get the, get your, get a little bit of a
+
+[14:15] vacuum, so there's not a great, uh, you know, heat conductor, get a little bit of a vacuum going in your condenser before you add the dry ice and the alcohol.
+
+[14:22] Don't put dry ice and alcohol in the condenser and then start your distillation run. But it's very difficult. And I really think that liquid nitrogen, even though it's not as powerful as dry ice. And so therefore it would cost more in the law, and you have to keep refilling it. I just find that it's a lot easier for me to for me to work with. We haven't had as good a luck with dry eyes. Anyway, I hope that helps. Should we go to our 1st commercial break? Sure. We're coming back for my 1st commercial break in a moment. cooking issues.
+
+[14:54] You're listening to No Deceiver by Huntronic on the HeritageRadionetwork.org.
+
+[15:17] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a local vore? Our Northeast Regional Forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level.
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+[15:48] at Whole Foods market stores. Today, New York, tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foodsmarket.com.
+
+[16:07] Wow, Joe, I like that. I like that beating in the back of that. It's very... I don't know that it's whole food sounding, but it's like, you know, right? Yeah, I don't know if that's exactly Whole Foods, but yeah, it definitely threw me for a loop. don't know. Is that is that Jack's work? No, that's not Jack. That's actually Rachel Wharton's boyfriend is in this
+
+[16:31] band and he does the theme song for her for her show too. Yeah, nice. It's pretty cool, right? All right. Well, welcome back to Cooking Issues, Call, New Questions, Live 2, 718-497-2128. That's the 24972128. Tom wrote in and said, hi, Dave, and all. So it's not Nastasia. Now you're the all too. She's like, I don't care. I don't care. reading my tweets. Actually, you know what? She's not because Nastasia hates all sorts of social media. She detests it. She detests social things in general, actually, but especially media related to being social, right? true. Yeah. She also likes ordering shoes online, but hates it when other people do it. I don't bring shoes. Oh, yeah? Hold on. You're right. ordering jackets. She's literally, she's sitting here. She always says that she's doing work. She's sitting here, she's sitting sitting here ordering... Is that what you're doing? See, here's the thing. Nostalgia all day has her face in the computer. She's like, you don't know what I do. don't know what I do. The 1st time I ever went and actually took a little computer. She's ordering jackets. And not just any kind of jacket, like early 90s beige barn
+
+[17:33] jackets. No, it's not. Like Jake Cruz stuff. some German like store. So what the hell does that have to do with anything we're doing right now on cooking issues? Nothing. Nothing at all. I'm listening to you though. Uh-huh. What was my last question about? Oh, you just Harold McGee me. Hey, girl, do you like this? Okay, good. The Sasha has this thing that she says, I ask questions and then don't wait for the answer. Well, we don't have all day. It is a 45 minute program. Poor Harold. Crazy. This is a crazy person. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Nastasia, crazy person. Tom writes in, I've recently started making sourdough bread and some other fermented goods. My wife loves the new food, but can't stand the vinegar flies. I put up with them until recently when they started attacking food mid-prep. Traps do trap flies, especially the ones I baited with water and soap to break the surface tension, pear slices, and sprouted, then roasted barley.
+
+[18:24] But I don't want to cook for flies. That is a lot of work. Sprouted and roasted barley. First of all, I hate sprouts. Yeah, we did sprouts in that. We did test sprouts. Everyone out there I know that a lot of you like sprouts. don't like them. don't even like sprouts that everyone likes. I said this many times before. Please don't serve me a p shoot. I know you like it. I know everyone else likes it. I do not like it. Anyway. I mean, I like to sprout barley, you know, not to sprout it, but to germinate. I mean, that's like the basis of many of the foods. I mean, foods, drinks that I like in the world are based on the notion of sprouting barley. But, uh, you know, uh, you know, but don't, uh, I should say germinating it. Anyway, because you know, when you're doing malt, you don't want the, uh, the acrospire to come all the way out of the, uh, out of the
+
+[19:04] barley, because then it's eaten up too much of the, too much of the carbo is used, and you don't have enough left over to make your delicious, delicious
+
+[19:10] beer, or your delicious, delicious whiskey. So don't do that. Anyway, I don't want to cook for flies, and it seems like the trap attracts and then kills extra flies, leaving roughly the same amount to be a nuisance. When I put the ferments in the fridge, the flies abate rapidly. So there isn't some other problem in the background. What do you do? What can I do? What do professionals do? I can't imagine flies would be tolerated in a good restaurant or factory. Thanks, Tom. P S. Dave, did you take any philosophy classes from Michael Della Rocca at Yale? He is my dissertation director. If you did take his class, would you give him a shout on an air? Shout out on air. Well, I'm happy to give him a shout out, but no, I don't think he joined the faculty at Yale before I graduated. I graduated in 93 and I looked him up on the internet and his dissertation was in, I think, 91. So I don't think he was on the faculty at Yale when I was there. Actually, I mean, I haven't looked at their faculty recently. See whether any of the old guard from back in those days was still, you know, there. I'm sure some of a lot of them are still alive. I had a bunch of young people teaching us, but, um, I don't know if they're still there. But I'm going to give a shout out to anyone doing their philosophy dissertation to Yale. Shout out. I love that, man. Like, you know, again, whatever. I mean, I looked them up, uh, uh, uh, you know, Professor uh, Della Rocca is,
+
+[20:30] does a field that uh, I didn't do so much in kind of early modern philosophy stuff. I was more. I did 2 very different sides of the coin. I spent most of my time worried about Play-Doh and Nietzsche. I ended up writing a whole boatload of my papers on Nitro. Nietzsche is designed for like an 18 to 21 year
+
+[20:48] old angst ridden philosophy student at an Ivy League institution. Like, the writing is just like, I need to go back and read it, see what I still like. It'd be interesting whether 41 year old me, it
+
+[21:00] has gets the same kind of feelings from reading Nietzsche. I'm reading your essays? No, crap on my essays. What the hell did I know? I was 20. But I mean, I don't know, the actual work. Go back and read Nietzsche. Have you ever gone back, Nastasia, and read some of the old stuff that you read in college to see whether it's still, like, where they have any feeling about it all? I mean, the, the, the, what I'm worried about is I go back and I read it and I just feel nothing. Wouldn't that be weird to have spent like all that time and then go back and feel
+
+[21:24] nothing? Of course, yeah, service purpose, whatever. Here is a story. So vinegar flies are similar to what are named fruit flies or drain flies. They're all different variants of the dress villa, like melon gaster. You know the famous for filling mellongaster, the ones that they did all the genetics experiments on. fruit flies. They're the same thing, and I hate them. I detest them. I would I'm sure that they serve a great ecological purpose, but I would wipe them off the face of the
+
+[21:50] earth. I absolutely detest them. And they're the bane of bars existence because, you know, so actually, just apropos of nothing. But if you own a bar and you watch someone come in and do a health inspection of your bar, what they do is they go and they grab your bottles of booze, they swirl them and put a flashlight in the bottom of
+
+[22:11] them and they're looking for dead fruit flies on the inside of your bottles.
+
+[22:15] Now the health inspector that we had didn't have the brains to realize that we're not
+
+[22:19] going to have that problem because we don't have speed pores on our bottles. There's no way for flies to get into our bottles. Also, we were saying, we weren't sure if it's actually technically illegal to do an infusion of fruit flies.
+
+[22:31] If you raised food grade fruit flies, could you do a fruit fly infusion and have a bottle that was totally full of fruit flies, like
+
+[22:37] 100% just fruit flies and grain alcohol as an infusion, aside from the fact that infusions might be technically illegal, would there be a further illegality as a result of the fruit flies
+
+[22:48] themselves? It's unclear to me. We're not going to do it, please. I'm 100% kidding, but
+
+[22:54] just wondering about whether it's the fruit flies themselves that are inherently some sort of the health hazard, right? I mean, the health hazard from a fruit flies that it might land on something that's incredibly gross and then land on your stuff. I want to make, I told you I want to make little t-shirts for flies that say my last landing pad was poop. You know what I mean? You want to make a t-shirt? Four or five? Yeah, or somehow like, you know, maybe a little video that where a fly is saying, you know, because a fly is like, yeah,
+
+[23:17] we could, right? Yeah. My last landing pad was poop. I mean, that's the problem with flies. Not fruit flies, but flies. Anyway. So off the topic. I would look up the Ohio State University extension fact sheet entomology on vinegar, pumice, or small fruit flies, Drasfilla, multiple different species. That's the, you know, the genus is dressed for love. Okay, here's the issue. They live anywhere there is stuff they can feed on. So the obvious one that we think of is fermenting products, fermenting fruit. They're attracted to that kind of a thing. Liquids, also garbage. Also, mops that you have out that are mops that are wet. Dish rags that are wet, uh, sponges that are wet, uh, any garbage uh, that, you know, is lying around. Now, the life cycle of them is, you know, between 7 and 14 days. So it takes a while and it takes a while for them to grow. So most likely you have a source somewhere. that is sitting around for long enough for it for these flies to grow. Now, do you want to know what the most likely culprit, I think, is for something like this?
+
+[24:24] If you're not keeping a wet mop around and you're not keeping fruit out,
+
+[24:29] right? And you're not having these kind of problems, drains, it's your drains that are the most likely place where
+
+[24:35] these, where these things are coming from, poor, they're coming from
+
+[24:39] outside. Most screen mesh, most window screen mesh is not big enough. I mean, sorry, is not small enough to stop these flies from coming in. So, uh, all of the, uh, you know, the uh, the sites, you know, the technical sites on it, you need what's called a 16 mesh or finer, which is finer than most uh, screen mesh to exclude uh, these flies from coming into
+
+[24:59] your uh, kitchen. Also, they can enter through, they are attracted to light at night. So if you leave a light on and you have a screen open, they're tracked into the kitchen. They'll then find a mop, a rag, or any place like this to go. Now, the drains are a problem because you can get a biofilm, which is like a layer of slimy gunk that inhabits the inside of the drains, all the way down into where the trap is in the
+
+[25:26] drain. And normal washing, even with hot water, isn't enough to kill and or wipe these things out because the contact time is not long enough.
+
+[25:35] And so what you need to do, if you want to see whether this is where they're coming from,
+
+[25:39] is, and this is, you know, I read this on several of the technical sites, is you want to put tape over a portion of the drain, leaving enough, like, so air can get in and out, and then overnight, and then come in the next
+
+[25:51] day and see whether or not there's any flies stuck to the underside of the tape, which would be indicative that the flies are exiting from the drain pipe in order to lay their eggs and
+
+[25:59] do their nasty, nasty work. So, um, So how to get it out of the drains. You can, you can, like, every couple of months, you can remove your drain, uh, your, your, the actual cover on the drain, take a scrub
+
+[26:12] brush and bleach and scrub that stuff out, then pour, uh, a bio, uh, you know, an enzymatic bio cleaner that
+
+[26:19] will, that will eat away at the, uh, coating that's on the inside of the drain pipe. And then flush multiple times with boiling water. Or, and then, you know, periodically, pour boiling water down your drains to make sure that you're getting rid of it.
+
+[26:33] Um, so that's that's one way to do it. Also, covering up, you know, covering up any source where they might go in that's wet, not keeping any of that stuff in
+
+[26:42] your in your kitchen. Remember, they're attracted to light and to moisture. Now, here's another good one. You can use insecticides, like pyrethrines to kill these suckers, but you don't necessarily want to have those things laying around.
+
+[26:55] Something you might not be aware of, but that I like quite a
+
+[26:59] bit is a product called Gentral. Now, Gentral is something called an insect growth regulator. The actual active ingredient in general. And you can buy this at a lot of stores. You can buy it, I think, on the Amazon is a hydroprene. And hydroprene, and you can look it up, just look up hydroprene. If you look up Gentral, you'll get a bunch of like things trying to sell to you. If you look up hydroprene, H-Y-D-R-O, P-R-E-N-E. You'll get websites that talk about the actual product itself. What it is, is it is a hormone analog. So insects use different hormones to try and, you know, try and
+
+[27:37] uh, signal within their bodies that they need to move to the next level of uh, either growth, a different instar, with their, in a nymph phase, or uh, or to lay eggs. All parts of their reproductive and growth cycles are regulated by
+
+[27:51] hormones the same way that we are. Fortunately for us. Mammals and insects have different hormones. And so we can use a hormone, it's not the actual hormone that's in the insects, but it's analogous to it. It affects the same systems that real hormones do. And we can essentially provide birth control to insects. So the cool thing about this hydroprinus gentral is it's totally food safe, and it's not a human or a mammalian hormone at all. So you can spray it on surfaces that are typically difficult to totally eradicate all water from porous wood surfaces, things like that, things that can
+
+[28:29] trap and hold moisture, and a great breeding place is for
+
+[28:33] these wretched flies. You can spray gentral on them, you know, a couple of times. It lasts for a good long while in there, and it will provide continuous birth control for flies, such that they will not be able to reproduce. Okay? So, uh, you know, we we use this. And by the way, it works on almost all insects.
+
+[28:55] Go to read, if you want to read a scholarly paper on it, go read,
+
+[28:59] hydroprene, mode of action, current status, in stored product, pest management, insect, insect resistance, and future
+
+[29:05] prospects by SM Mohondas. That's available. It's in the magazine crop protection 2006. and it's available for free on the USDA.gov website.
+
+[29:15] And it goes through what it does and all of the studies of it. And it's good stuff. It's general. It also wipes out cockroaches, and it also wipes out moths. So, you know, and I think it also might work on flower beetles and things like that. So if you're having some sort of hard to crack infestation, that's probably due to something, somewhere in your kitchen, you can't find that these suckers are attracted to. Spray this on it. They'll go back to where they came from, wherever they lay eggs and those eggs will not be fertile. So it's good stuff. Hope that the way he thinks. Good? Do you like the tentral, right? Did you ever use it? Did you take some, do you have any problems at your house? Really? Even though you live in Hell's Kitchen? Hell's Kitchen's like, you know, it's like the older of a building you live in or the more people in it, the harder it is to kind of eradicate these things. We once had a, you know, I've had it work wonders on cockroaches at general. I mean, I like it, and, you know, it's nice to find something because I have 2 kids in my house, so I don't want to spray a lot of poisonous stuff around, you
+
+[30:12] know? I mean, I used to have no pets. Now we have the 2 hamsters. Did I ever say on air that the one hamster escaped? My kids had the hamster, the hamster escaped. We brought another hamster and the other hamster showed up like a week and a half later, like the prodigal hamster. He was totally emaciated and messed up and like, you know, like, you know, on a forced march kind of a situation. My wife saw him and was like, ah, she thought it was some sort of crazy road. She's like, oh my god, Rhino, you've come back. and gets rhino. And like we had 2 cages, a mini storage cage, right? For the, and the big one, then the New Hampster, Sulu, had the
+
+[30:45] run of both hamster cages, right? And then all of a sudden, Rhino comes back. And Sulu gets shoved in a small cage and Rhino gets his big cage back because the hamsters can't live together because they might, you know, rip each other
+
+[30:56] into shreds. And we were all like, holy crap. And we're like, wow, it's just like the prodigal son from the Bible. He can leave. He can do what he wants. comes back, you guys, really? Hey, dad, how was the cows come? You so much nicer to the one that did all this other crap. He's like, I always had you as a son. But this son I had lost and now I have him again. What? What kind of message is that? Crazy. You're following it. Look, here's the thing. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Now, look. For those of you that aren't parents or have never been or young or whatever, okay, when you read the prodigal
+
+[31:31] son, you know, section of the Bible, you're like, that is some load of bull. What the hell is that? You know what I mean? You're like, this is horse crap. But then once you become a parent, you understand it? Really? Why? Because it's true. You think you've lost something and nothing is worse than the loss. And then when it comes back, it's like, hello. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? He doesn't even give him the bigger cake. Go kill the fatted carrot. The prodigal hamster is back. Hey, Dave, I think you have a call. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, choose the crew. It's Brian, it's just go. Oh, hey, Brian, how you doing? Good. Okay, my question is, I'm looking for your tips to make the best pancakes and waffles. Ooh, what are your, what are your criteria for, for a good pancake and waffle? Because the answer depends. Okay, so not soggy, uh, yeah. got a little little crunch on the outside. It's got some fluffiness to it. Uh, and I'm also interested in, in, in maybe going the savory route also. So, both, both for breakfast and uh, and for, for dinner. So for dinner, most people on their pancake style things will... Korean
+
+[32:52] with kimchi or something like that. Right. I mean, they'll like, most people want a different texture on a dinner pancake than they want. They want usually more crepe like on on a dinner style
+
+[33:03] thing and the secret to crepe like things is to let the batter rest a long time, not only because of hydration issues, but
+
+[33:12] to make sure all the air is out because it's very hard to get a good spread on a crepe if there's any air left over in the batter. Okay. But... Thin, right. Now, but if you want to do standard pancakes and waffles. If you do, if you research old recipes on pancakes and waffles. You'll find that the major difference between them. In fact, in some ways, the only difference you need to pay attention to between them is that a waffle recipe is going to contain a significant amount of oil or
+
+[33:41] oil-like thing like butter. Okay? And the reason is, is you need something to,
+
+[33:48] uh, you need something to reduce the, uh, sticking to the sides of the of the waffle iron. So if you try to do a lower fat version of a waffle,
+
+[33:59] you'll find that it just sticks like nobody's business. Modern day waffle irons have a Teflon coating on the inside of them and are much better at releasing. And so don't require as much fat in them as the old school recipes. And so you'll see a lot of more modern recipes, really tone the fat level down because the fat level can be quite high. We're talking, uh, you know, like over well over half of a cup of uh, half a cup. Well, like 2 sticks of butter worth. Yeah, well over a cup, right? Whatever. Anyway, in like a 4.5 cup flour recipe. So you're, um, a significant amount of, I find, though, that I like it better with that high amount of fat in it. Now, I used to try various different things in my pancakes and waffles. So I use the same, long story short, I use the same recipe because I'd rather have the more fat in my pancake recipe than the less fat in the waffle.
+
+[34:50] It makes it easier to remember. So I use the same batter for both pancakes and for waffles. So the recipe. Also, what I do is I hydrate a certain portion of the flour in my liquids before
+
+[35:01] I before I start working. I use buttermilk because I like the results I get. So the recipe that I actually use at home. It's not really measured, so I have to give it to you is I use a quart of buttermilk, right? The regular cultured, like, buttermilk, which isn't actually buttermilk, but that's what everyone calls buttermilk. I use a quart of that. Five whole, I use extra large eggs. I don't know why, but I always have 5 extra large eggs. Um, I then add a portion of the flour. I usually add like a cup and a half . My wife, and I actually like the taste of it. So if I'm going to use a non-traditional flower at this point, I add it then. And I, a lot of times use a mixture of oats and or buckwheat flour and or cornmeal, and or, you know, some little bit, but you can't use too much wheat term, some of that,
+
+[35:49] some, or whole wheat, all different kinds or, uh, or, uh, chapati flour at this point. I add it now, right, at this early stage, along with vanilla, which I usually use vanilla at that point, and if I'm going to use
+
+[36:03] it, rum, and also sugar to taste, to make it a little bit sweeter.
+
+[36:07] And that's what I would omit for a savory recipe, okay? Blend that thing together and allow the hydration to start. There's so much, there's so much, um, um, there's so much moisture in that that you're not going to develop any gluten. Don't worry about, and I hit it with a stick blender to get it really well blended at that point. You don't need to worry about gluten development at this point. I melt. I also salt. Sorry, add some salt to it. I then melt. What about the chemical governors? Yeah, I add that later. So then I add, so I let that hydrate for a little while. Then I melt 2 sticks of butter, which is, I guess, a cup, or mixture of oil, depending on what you're doing if you don't want the butter. I I mix I blitz that in. Then I add a portion of the remaining flour, and then it sounds like a lot, but 4.5 teaspoons of baking powder. And I used to only use
+
+[36:56] four. And I used to also make a thinner recipe with the flour I added, but I decided I like my pancakes
+
+[37:02] thicker. And so I add a slightly more baking powder. I take it up to 4.5 and I add a little more flour to make a stiffer. If you want it thinner and you want the pancakes a little thinner and not quite as fluffed out,
+
+[37:14] more less cakey, then take it down to 4 teaspoons, and don't add as much flour at the end. So 4.5 teaspoons baking powder and 2 teaspoons soda to counteract the acidity from the
+
+[37:25] buttermilk and to do extra leavening. Then I stir in enough flour to get the
+
+[37:32] consistency the texture I want and I cook it. I cook them on a large crepe maker, actually, because I have a crepe maker from France. And what I usually do is I'll hit it with a little bit of a high initial heat to start the crust going because it's also there's a big wallop of a heat load on your pan because there's all that moisture sticking
+
+[37:49] to it. And then I'll reduce the heat down, wait for the bubbles when they break. I can see that I've cooked enough through my pancake for a good flip time, flip, and cook out. That's how I, that's my standard pancake, and I use the same recipe for waffles. I tend not to try any of the more comp. I've done them many times, but I don't do a lot of the more complicated stuff like separately, whip the egg whites and then fold them in because I find that it reduces the structure on the inside of the waffle or pancake to the extent that it's not what I'm looking for anymore.
+
+[38:17] Does that make sense? makes sense. What if a thing, so what is, what, you know, if I want to do banana nut or add, add some fruit, fruit or something in there. And then also, what about yeast it? What if I want to go with, with, with yeast and and, um, put some yeast and do the overnight thing? Right there. 2 kinds of yeasted? There's people that add yeast just for flavor, but then are doing standard rises on it,
+
+[38:38] and you know, that you can do whenever you want. The overnight ones, they taste great. They, they, um, they tend, uh, they have a very unique flavor. I actually really like them, but not everyone's a fan of that kind of a yeasted flavor, but I think they're great. I also used to, uh, I used to use, um, you know, so sourdough that's not right for bread baking, i.e. it's too far gone. It's very sour, but I used to keep that stuff around, not, and then I would, I would try to reconstitute it into a real bread starter to do bread, but I would use that starter as a, as just an addition to
+
+[39:16] sourdough pancakes, where then it's functioning a lot more like the buttermilk. That's also delicious. But remember, like those kind of pre-ferments are going to change the structure of the flour a little bit, so the pancakes won't have quite the same texture as a non-fermented pancake will.
+
+[39:31] Not better, not worse, different. You know what I mean? So they'll have a little bit of that glossier inner crumb structure that you're going to get from a sourdough than you would from a normal, normal kind of a pancake thing. As regards fruit. Because there's Mark gluten development. Or I think because it breaks, I think because it breaks things down. Acidity is messing with the structure, I think the same way that it's actually weakening it. Uh, but, uh, you know, I would think. I haven't done the research on it. I mean, that's just off the top of my head. On fruits, though, I tend not to mix fruits into the batter unless they are completely dry. I don't want her to bleed out and also it's harder to dose them in. So I always add them to the, I put the pancake down. I'll then add the fruit and the correct dosage and pattern to the pancake. And then because I'm extremely anal. I will take a spoon and paint a thin layer of batter over each piece of fruit before I flip it. That's how I do it. I used to do this also with I used to use frozen blueberries all the time in my in waffles. Let me tell you this. It works great except for expect to buy a new waffle iron every couple of months because the blueberry burns onto the surface of the
+
+[40:42] Teflon, and it is, they are never the same again. And so eventually your, your, a wafflier is going to start sticking and you could sit there with uh, with like a wooden chopstick and try to scrape that stuff off as much as you want to, but those waffle irons never come back to the same condition after you've
+
+[40:59] stopped, you know, after you've started putting fruit into them. Now, maybe worth it to you. And I thought it was worth it for a while, but, you know, the last time I had my waffles start sticking uncontrollably. I was like, I'm just not doing this anymore. I haven't even replaced my waffle iron and my sons are like, dad, can you buy a waffle iron again? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get around to it to buying a good waffler. My last one was one of the flip guys. The ones that emulated the professional style, the flip ones. The flip ones are actually designed to have a much more watery dough and they're designed to cook a lot faster and to have a lot more of an empty inside. That why they flip, right? You flip it so that you can get the equals structure on each side. But even so, I used a standard recipe in them and they weren't great. I loved the flip guys because there's so much faster. I mean, no one's designed the perfect waffle iron yet. What you really want is a waffle iron that, you know, plugs into a 220 source and can make 4 real-sized waffles at once because unless you're feeding only yourself. Let's face it, who cooks waffles for themselves, it's a huge pain in the butt to crank out enough waffles for everyone and then have everyone eat at the same time.
+
+[42:00] Don't you agree on this? There's always going to be something that are going to be more crisp than others. Yeah, yeah. I know. I hate that. You know, but the problem is, people don't have the power. Uh, you know, in their house to typically do it. I once invested in a bunch of old cast iron waffle irons, the ones that make the really thin, weird little waffles. That's what I had. Yeah, but they always stuck a little bit. They were never as release friendly as the other ones, but they did allow
+
+[42:25] me because I have 6 burners. I could crank out a whole bunch of them. Do you like the little cast iron guys? Uh, I like it. It's it's pretty well good. This one's pretty well greased. Um, Yeah, I find that it has, it trans, once it heats up and it's cranking. It's, it's, it's going pretty well. I like it. Yeah, nice. Well, maybe I'll give it a try again. It's certainly the only way to get out a bunch of waffles at once is to fire up a bunch of burners with a bunch of cast iron. Well, let me ask you more about the savory one because I got, I had a recipe for a kimchi pancake that, um, it, it, the, it
+
+[43:00] was um, half potato starch, half, all purpose
+
+[43:04] flour. Right. Um, and it seemed to crisp up pretty, pretty nicely, but it's a very different kind of deal because it's got a lot of, a lot of kimchi in there and a, and a fair amount of
+
+[43:16] veg. Right. So, um, uh, you know, do you, do you have any thoughts on, on, uh, on that for the savory application? Well, what what did you not like about the texture of it? No, I actually like it. I don't know if, if, uh, you know, if I can take, um,
+
+[43:35] if I can do that, that, uh, that one to one with the, the potato starch and,
+
+[43:41] and uh, um, and the all purpose flour and do, use it for other kinds of, um, other kinds of things.
+
+[43:47] I mean, probably, it's interesting. I've never done that high of a ratio. I used to, all of my cookies. I used to bake with a, like a, uh, a 5 to one AP to cornstarch base to soften them. You know, I mean, I mean, probably they're adding the cornstarch there to soften the pancake up a little bit so that the actual structure of it's not too
+
+[44:09] glutinous. It's not too tough, uh, which would, I guess, help if you were going to do a lot of, um, whipping or beating. But again, I'm also using a lot of low gluten stuff in my current pancakes, so I never have a problem with them getting tough. I'm using a lot of things like oats and stuff like that. fairly high usages. So you could, you know, usage rates that is, so you could, uh, on a flower basis. So I'm sure you could, uh, I'm sure you could use it for whatever you want. If you like the texture of that. Like I say, I've done that much of non-glutinous flowers, but I've never used that much corn starch. It should hydrate relatively quickly. You know, this one's potato starch, actually. Oh, potato. If the texture is closer to like a, like a latka, like a potato pancake. Um, than a more than a kind of a sweet pancake, like a breakfast pancake. Right. Potato starch is weird. I would expect it to be dense and very moist. Uh, well, the inside is is is that way, but the outside crisps up very nicely.
+
+[45:07] Yeah. It's interesting. I'll have to do some, what was the source of the recipe? There was a, it was from the New York Times website. Actually, it's based on a restaurant in Manhattan, I think. Yeah, well, I'll try, I'll try, send you the link? Yeah, yeah, send us a link on the... You can pass it on. Cool. Thanks a lot. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. Derek writes in with a question. Hi, I've listened to many shows in the last couple of years and I've heard a great deal of advice on cooking low temperature, especially beef and chicken. I don't recall much advice for lamb, though. So as I have a £2 lamb shoulder roast in my possession. I'd like to ask for some pointers. My plan is to cook it at 60 degrees. a.k.a. 140 Fahrenheit, which by the way, people, I've said this a 1000000 times. Remember that one. Always that, like, if you remember no other Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion. Remember 60 to 140. In my circulator, chill, rethurm and finish in a 450 degree or 500 degree oven for service. I like my lamb medium. is 61. I like my lamb medium. 60 degrees Celsius in appropriate temperature. Uh, it's what I'm, uh, it's what I aim for when I'm oven baking or oven roasting, but I wonder if you have a different recommendation for long cooking
+
+[46:17] in a circulator. Two, I'm planning on cooking it for 6 to 8 hours and I want to balance between breaking down connective tissue and not making it too muttony.
+
+[46:24] Is this long enough? Next, at what temperature should I retherm it to get it warm without overcooking it during the final oven browning?
+
+[46:31] Uh, 130, for instance. Is that a good is that a good thing? Uh, the internal temperature to rethermitude. Thanks, Derek. Okay. First of all, to me, 60, like, I looked up online, to me, 60 seems a little bit high. Look at some, I mean, a little bit high for cooking for that long. The longer you cook it, the kind of lower you can get the temperature down. And I mean, unless it's strictly speaking, a color issue, you're going to go up. 60's not too high, I would try to. I mean, I would do it at 57 or 58, but 60 is probably
+
+[47:07] gonna be fine. You could try it. It's not it's not going to be horrible. If you really want it more on the on the well, not well, but on the medium side, 60 might be a good number. I don't think that um, I don't think that 6 to 8 hours is going to be enough, you're probably going to want to go longer, like 12 to 24 uh, at 60. But, uh, you know, your problem is, is that you, it depends on how tender you want it, right? So the longer lamb usually doesn't need to take as much cooking as other things because lamb, it's lamb. So it's younger. So the connected tissue is easier to break down than it is in an older animal. So it typically doesn't take as long a time as you would with an older animal, but, um, it's still probably going to take longer than 6 to 8 hours. You'll get some tenderizing effect at 60 for 6 to 8 hours, definitely, but it's
+
+[47:57] going to be the difference of taking something, let's go back to steak land. It's going to be the difference of taking something from skirt steak, texture to rib steak texture. Okay? Not the difference of taking something from, uh, you know, an undone braise to a
+
+[48:13] Dun braise. So, you know, it might be tender enough for you, but the, like, if it's going to be, if you're going to do something at 60, so you're going to do it at that high a temperature, I think you needed to get it really, really tender in order
+
+[48:24] for, like, that level of doneness to be pleasant, in which case you're going to need to go longer. Like, like, 8, 12 to 24. I would probably cook it as high as 24. I think that the mutney flavor that's going to come out is going to come out by 8 hours
+
+[48:38] anyway, if you're having a piece, it's going to get one of those gamey mutney flavors. So I don't think that the extra 12 hours is going to accentuate that cooking that much. anyway. Usually, when a meat protein is going to start throwing off a gamey, livery, muttony taste. It's happening in the 1st four, five, 6 hours. So by the time you get to 8 or nine, I think that flavor's already developed, not that it won't intensify over time.
+
+[49:04] Now, if you're going to chill this guy all the way down, I think that,
+
+[49:09] uh, you know, I still think that it's only £2. So I would do it in a very high temp oven to brown up the outside and don't worry about how warm it's going to get in the middle. You could throw it into, uh, you could rethermit 130. What's that in Fahrenheit? If someone do that. I mean, in Celsius, could someone do the conversion like Celsius to Fahrenheit for me? 130? Yeah. What is that? Mustache's looking it up. 54? Yeah, 54 for a 60. I mean, I would do it even lower. I would re therm it at like 52. I would bring it up at like 52, up to temperature for like half hour, maybe something like this. Depends on how thick you are. Go to sous vide dash or whatnot, and find out how long it's going to take to get up to those temperatures up to like 50 in that range, and then sear it off from there, or even slightly before it gets up to
+
+[50:05] that, when the center is like in the 40s, or the center's in like the, you know, like in the mid 40s. You'll get a good roast on the outside and you're not going to overcook it. Um, That's what I would that's what I would recommend. What do you think? Or you can just pull it. you can just drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour, if you don't want to chill it down, drop the temperature of the circulator for the last hour, throw ice cubes, drop the temperature of the circulator to 50, pull it directly from the circulator and throw it into
+
+[50:30] the and throw it into a hot oven and you should be all right. Okay. One last question from Rob Trey Paz? I think it's one last. I think I only have one last. Hello, when I cook low temperature or sous vide at home, I typically serve all that I make or chill sealed bags to retherm them for a separate meal. Typically, I follow the 72 hour rule for 5 degrees Celsius, 41 degrees Fahrenheit storage, as per the FDA time and
+
+[50:53] test standards for sous vide, in my domestic refrigerator or freeze for longer storage. If I follow the storage, uh, the FDA storage guidelines, then sear or retherm the food. Can I safely hold the leftovers for the next day or 2 under refrigeration? Uh, do the FDA sous vide standards, uh, pages one through 186 in modernist cuisine, only,
+
+[51:12] uh, no, volume one, page 186, I guess, for modernist cuisine, only pertain to the time spent in the anaerobic environment, i.e. until the bag is opened.
+
+[51:20] Do these restrictions go away if I use ziplocs instead of vacuum bags? I have some duckcom fees, sous vide at 180 for 8 hours, children stored in the freezer for a month, and I would like to use it to make
+
+[51:30] riettes. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate? Thanks again for all your help, Rob Treypas. Well, that is a, that is a really, really good question. So it, I, If you're if you're storing it for a month. right? You're going to want to have your storage as per the storage things all the way down at 38 Fahrenheit. However, with confit, you're going to cook it, right? So what they're worried about on that probably is a botulism problem. And, you know, if you're going to reheat it enough, um, I think you're going to be all right. You're going to cook it, you're going to recook it and make riettes with it. What kind of storage and serving window would be appropriate. If you pull something out of a bag and you consider safe, it should be all right to redo
+
+[52:17] it normally. There's 2 issues going on and you rightly point them out here. One is you're worried about, uh, you know, anaerobic things, uh, going wrong in your bag, i.e.
+
+[52:27] botulism or mic, or facultative bacteria, microaerobic stuff like listeria going on, you're
+
+[52:32] going to wipe out the listeria. So you're worried about things that are spore forming like, if you do a good job cooking. So if you're actually cooking it properly. Uh, so you're worried more about things like uh, botulism. And, um, you're still, you know what, Rob? Like, for some reason, my brain is totally fried. I'm trying to parse through everything that you're saying, and I, when it comes to safety, I want to make 100% reliable judgment as to what I'm
+
+[52:55] doing. So I'm going to go ahead, reread your question, because when I read it, I thought I could answer because usually I can answer most safety things off the top of my head, but I want to make sure I give you exactly the right advice on the order of what you're doing, things
+
+[53:05] and where they're going to go. So I'm going to hold off on finishing your question for next time. And on my way out, we have a question from Mike Chesski says, oh, by the way, he says PS, because I know they're going to cut us off before I'm done. He says you guys need to have a TV show from your from your lips to the, I don't know, some producers ears. The problem is, very few people want to actually do a show the way that, you know, that we would want to do a show, which is, I like to just go, I just like to go crazy on particular subjects for a long period of time, and most people, they
+
+[53:36] don't, they don't like that so much, right? Right. Right. It turns out, turns out they don't like it so much. Anyway, my question concerns dairy products and heat. I sometimes add dairy to hot dishes. For instance, I might finish a curry with a bit of yogurt or add sour cream to a
+
+[53:50] poprikash, which I haven't had one in a long time. They delicious. Anyway, sometimes the dairy curls and looks gross. It does look gross. You are correct. I think it has something to do with the way proteins denaturing and binding to the K-pro casing proteins. Uh, well, that I'm not sure about that. But anyway, could you explain exactly what is going on in any possible solutions. One trick I found, which sometimes works, is tempering the dairy with a bit of the hot liquid and then incorporating it back into the main pot. Thanks, Mike. Okay. Um, What's happening is, is that the, you know, in something like a sour cream, the stuff is partially
+
+[54:23] coagulant broken together, but it's still okay. You stir it in, it's acidified. So it's right at the place where it's going to break and curdle and look awesome. It's very, very touchy. And this is why all the recipes recommend to you that you,
+
+[54:33] you know, don't heat sauce after you add the sour cream to her. You're very gentle when you heat it. And the reason they're asking you to temper the stuff in is because if you put the sour cream directly into the hot sauce, especially if it contains acidic things like tomatoes that are adding to the acidity of it, right, it will tend to break right away, whereas if
+
+[54:54] you're stirring the dairy product and adding hot liquid into it, it's much more gradual
+
+[55:00] change and so you're not going to cause kind of the instant break where it's going to happen. The, um, the recommendation. So that's why that recommendation is there, right? The braking is enhanced by heating, which is why the recommendation is also there to not heat up those things.
+
+[55:17] The other one that works is to add a stabilizer. So if you're adding a stabilizer and a lot of, uh, you know, people put either starches or flour in, uh, and the flour
+
+[55:27] uh, prevents the uh, prevents the, the, the agglomeration of the uh, of the caseine. And so it prevents that curdling, and that, you know, that's doing that. On the other hand, that's going to muddy the flavor somewhat of it by masking it with the with the thing. My, uh, my, uh, the person who's now, what's Piper's what's Piper's job with us? Uh, product engineering, I think it is. Yeah. He uses pectins actually, a particular kind of pectin. I'll try and get it for the next show to do acidified dairy products that don't curdle. And he made a really acidified dairy product for us yesterday. It was kind of, was kind of, what do you think about that? I didn't taste it. Anyway, so you can do that. Again, my brain, totally bad. I didn't read precisely what you had said, I don't think it is the way proteins binding to the casing proteins, although I will research it for the next time, as well as answer, a question about
+
+[56:23] Pectanex that came in that I didn't get a chance to answer until next week. Cooking issues.
+
+[56:40] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[57:15] Wake up, we wake up all day. What would you do without me?
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bush Wake, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're hosting Cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of, what is it? Roberta's Pizzeria, Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join as always, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. We got a Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey, man, welcome back. Thank you. Thanks. It's good to be back. Actually, was late this morning, not for my normal reasons, but thanks to Hurricane Sandy, my building still no longer has heat or hot water, and
+
+[1:06] so we pretty much boil a giant pot of water on the stove all day every day. So I forgot to turn off the stove. And I had to bike all the way back home and turn the stove off to prevent my house from burning
+
+[1:20] down. But call all of your questions in two, 718-4972128. That's 718-497-2128 now. The 1st week we were gone because I was in Portland. Uh, doing a cocktail demo and I had to set up actually during our show. And last week, as those of you in this area will know, or in the U.S. will know, we had a little bit of a hurricane here in New York City. Shut down all of lower Manhattan for about three, four days and destroyed a lot of people's houses in Staten Island
+
+[1:53] and, you know, out on the shore in Queens and Rockaways.
+
+[1:58] And so we've been spending the better part of the week kind of dealing with that. But anyway, back to business. We have a lot of questions already emailed in because we've been gone for 2 weeks. I'll just start getting to them. By the way, any news from Eustache? Anything good? Nothing? No? Nastasia and I did the today show, 2 days after, 3 days after the hurricane, right? Yeah. And so, like they, thankfully, they put me up in a hotel along with my family, which saved us from better part of half of the problems because Nastasia was like, well,
+
+[2:27] I didn't have, we didn't have a cell service in the lower Manhattan. People don't understand. not really that it's not really the power loss. It's a huge problem. Uh, it's, it's lost. We lost, you know, all services. Now, luckily, obviously we're all safe, so we have very little to complain about compared to most people. But, um, the, the thing that people don't get about New York City is that we have in New York City a large population of elderly people who are able to live alone because there are a lot of services in New York that you wouldn't ordinarily get if you were living very spread
+
+[2:59] apart in a suburb, let's say. So we have a lot of people who are kind of right on the verge of being able to live alone, who are elderly, have some sort of disability, but then you shut down everything, including power and
+
+[3:10] water, and some people are living, you know, on very high up floors, and they have to now walk or get things. It's just that it was a nightmare for those people. And that's, you know, those are kind of people you don't necessarily think about if you don't live in a city, right? Anyway, terrible. So I, the guy I buy my cheese from was saying he went and visited uh, some of my cheese. Uh, you know, his mother-in-law the day after the hurricane, he was visiting his store that was shut down, and she's probably, I don't know, 80, in her apartment alone, crying her eyes out in the dark by herself because she couldn't call anyone because a lot of us don't have landlines
+
+[3:44] anymore and just had no idea what was going on, had no news, had no one. was afraid to go outside. crazy. Anyway, enough of that. Uh, Joseph, and we, we never got his pronunciation, name is, uh, his pronunciation of his name. Joseph Petto wrote in about Cambodian food. I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of Cambodian foods and was wondering if there was a cookbook slash resources. You can recommend to help with my adventure. Thanks. Um, well, unfortunately, Joseph, I only have myself, personally, one cookbook that deals specifically with um, Cambodian food, and it's actually as a kind
+
+[4:18] of it, it, the book is mainly about Vietnamese cooking. I wasn't able to dig it out. So I can't give you the name of it right now. But it looks like one of those crappy 80s cookbooks that used to get back in borders in the bargain shelf. In fact, I purchased it in the bargain shelf at
+
+[4:34] Borders in the early 2000s, and it's one of those books that looks like that. It's on Vietnamese and Cambodian food. And surprisingly, it is a very good book. And I found on Amazon that they reissued the Cambodian portion of
+
+[4:47] it. Uh, and I can't see what they, what they call it, but it's, it's, um, anyway,
+
+[4:54] I think it's the food and cooking of Cambodia, over 60 authentic classic recipes from an undiscovered cuisine. And it's part of it. you should just get the one that's Vietnamese and Cambodian. And I asked, you know, the person who had Nastasia job before Nastasia, it was Vietnamese, is Vietnamese. She's still alive. And her name is Mindy, Nguyen, and she looked at the Vietnamese section and said, yeah, the Vietnamese section looks good.
+
+[5:16] And, uh, and then someone else said on the on the reviews in Amazon said the Cambodian section looked good. Another one out of print that I would like to get, if I could get a hold of it, it's out of print is called the Elephant Walk cookbook. There's one that looks very short, and I don't know how in-depth it is, but you can fund some humanitarian aid in
+
+[5:32] Cambodia by buying a book called Cambodian Cooking and Humanitarian Project and Collaboration with Act for Cambodia. anyway. Hope that helps. Again, it's something I don't know as much about as I should. We don't really have that many Cambodian restaurants here, do we? No. Vietnamese, it's pretty huge. That one by the FCI Cambodian? Which one? Something N. No, something with an N. don't remember. Mills used to go there a lot. No, that's Malaysian. Yonian? No, no, no, yeah. Malaysian. That's like the Malaysian joint that a lot of chefs used to go to my
+
+[6:09] son actually, Booker, and Dax, who hate almost everything. Love Ionia. Love it. Bread probably, right? Crispy squid. Crispy squid and their chicken soup noodle soup. Oh, I have a caller. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Devin, Natasia, and Jack, this is Eric from Oakland. I had a couple pressure cooker questions. Shoot. Um, first, I'm looking into buying one, uh, and I do mostly cooking around the house, uh, for 2 to maybe
+
+[6:40] upwards at 8 to 10 people. What size pressure cooker should I be looking at? Well, uh, excluding the huge ones made by, like, uh, the American foundry, like the pressure canter style ones, just get the largest one you can get. I forget what the leader rating is, but I prefer, I have the really tall coon recon, not the really
+
+[7:00] fat wide one, but the tall coon recon, and I like that. The one with the handle or the the long handle or the 2 small handles on the side? It used to have a long handle, but it fell so many times on the floor that the handles have all broken off.
+
+[7:12] And so now I have to put the lid on with a, you know, by holding it with potholders and everything like that. But yeah, it used to have a long handle on it. All right, so that's probably the 12 quart variety then, huh? Probably. I mean, the good thing about the tall one is that the pot surface isn't that wide. I mean, so you're not going to use it as a fry pan, obviously, but the pot service is not that wide, so you don't get a lot of scorching on
+
+[7:36] it. And also, because of that, you can have smaller volumes in it and still pressure cook fairly effectively as opposed to the ones that are really wide, which sometimes when you're getting it up to heat, you could get some scorching around the center
+
+[7:47] part if your burners aren't big enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. That'll go for the toilet. The thing I had was you were talking a lot about cooking down garlic and
+
+[7:57] onions to sort of concentrate and maybe take the bite out of them. Do you put liquid in with them so that you can bring that thing up to pressure? I mean, with the procedure for doing that? Yes, you put liquid in. I used to use for garlic and onions. I, I, depending on what you're going to do, a lot of times I use milk. I don't know why. It just a habit, and it works nicely, and I don't know whether there's any functionality to it, but it curds up, but usually I end up
+
+[8:24] pureing it anyway. And so it ends up being good. So for some reason, I've always used milk. But... How far do you fill it up? Do you cover the onions and garlic? No, no, no, no. You just need enough to, you bring it to a boil while you're stirring it so that you don't scorch the milk, close it, bring it up to pressure very quickly and then lower it so the milk doesn't
+
+[8:42] scorch. Or you could use broth or, or, or you could use water even, but,
+
+[8:46] or you could put the, you could put the allium, whatever, garlic onion in a bowl, uh, like over a trivet inside of it and just have it not touch the water at all.
+
+[8:56] All those will work. So, and then, but remember, it's not going to have necessarily the same flavor that you're used to because you're taking all of the pungency pretty much
+
+[9:08] away. But the good news is you think... Yeah, very interested in trying that out because of that. Yeah, you can eat a ridiculous amount of garlic that way. Without it. you know, destroying your pores. Now, for those of you out there who might be like health obsessed with garlic,
+
+[9:23] I think that if you believe that garlic has some sort of amazing health giving
+
+[9:28] principle that you're probably obliterating that by doing this, but, you know, I don't care about that sort of thing. Yeah, time for one more question about fluid gems? Sure, Quickie. All right. Let me try to make a brandy fluid gel for Thanksgiving dessert. Um, and real quick, it's uh, my test batch was 3 milliliters of brandy, 2.4 grams of auger,
+
+[9:52] 0.2 grams of salt, 0.4 grams of nutmeg, 90 grams of sugar, uh, brings to a simmer, cook off the brandy, ice bath,
+
+[10:01] to let set, uh, and then blend. Um, and after uh, about a day, 2 days in the fridge. Uh, the gel started really loosening up. I was wondering if there was anything I'd do about that. I'm amazed that it set because you didn't, I mean, I would, it formed a really nice fluid gel at the beginning or no. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty, pretty thick and had a good texture and I could squeeze it out of a bottle and get a nice little pallet. Hey, you must have really boiled off a lot of the alcohol then. Yeah, I did, uh, I boiled it until, uh, and then I lit the pan on fire and boiled it till the fire went away. Ah, yeah, okay, good. Because, um, 2 things. Agar won't set. in that high of a proof of alcohol. And two, Agar needs a higher boiling point than you can get just out of when you bring a brandy to the
+
+[10:49] boil to hydrate property. So, yeah, so getting rid of the alcohol was a good thing. How much acid was in it, you said? There was no acid in it. And it's separated on, it just separated. It wouldn't come back together when you started? It's not really separating. It's just loosening up. It's not as like thick of a gel. It's more of like a sauce now. Huh. Well, I haven't had that happen. My guess is that the, you know, the way you're forming a fluid gel is you're breaking the particles into very tiny, tiny bits that have some affinity for themselves, but are floating around in a fluid so that when
+
+[11:22] you, when you move through them, they, you're, they shear apart quite easily, and then regain their affinity for themselves when they're standing still. So my guess is that they more water was squeezed out of the gel particles and so the individual gel particles are becoming denser and the water phase is increasing. And you might therefore be able to bring it back by adding a little bit of
+
+[11:46] something, it's going to absorb some of the water, like Xanthan. But I don't know that that's the case. That is my guess as to what's going on. What percentage of shell was it? Should a percentage, um, well, assuming uh, brandy is the same density as water, which is not. I went a shot for 0.8%. .8? Yeah. So right around .8. It's nice, but but like small increases in water around that point are going to decrease the
+
+[12:14] viscosity, a good chunk. And so that's, that might be what, what's happening is the balance, um, the water might be
+
+[12:23] center racing more out of the gel and just decreasing the liquid balance. I mean, increasing the liquid in the balance slightly. That's my guess. Okay. Should I try upping a little bit? No, I mean, that doesn't work? I mean, if you're going to make it again, I would just make it day of. And that way you don't have to worry about it. Or because if you up it, you could always up it and then keep a little bit of the liquid around and then dilute it to the proper consistency at the moment that you're going to serve it, if that makes
+
+[12:53] sense. Yeah, I was trying to make Thanksgiving Day a little bit easier and as much
+
+[12:58] beforehand as possible. So yeah, you can set it a little thicker, like fairly, fairly thick, as long as your blender can take it. And then just keep a little bit of the liquid around and then just kind of stir in a little liquid to get the get the balance where you want it. All right. All right. Okay, thanks, Dave. All right, good luck, good luck. Let us know how it goes. I will. Cheers. Bye, bye. Okay, uh, Brian Zerbis wrote in about circulators and uh, says, 1st of all, I love the show and uh, make my cook's listen to it during prep. I feel sorry for them, but thank you for making them listen to it. Two questions. First, what do you think about the current surge and popularity of street foods, mainly food trucks? do for our bartenders. What? Instead of the sappy, weepy stuff. Uh, yeah, you can't force bartenders to do anything, this is what I've learned. What do you think about the current surgeon popularity, street foods, mainly food trucks? And second, do you think it's practical to use sous vide on a food truck as a chef looking to open a truck in the next year here in Indianapolis? I want to plan slash prep cook most of my protein sous vide in an attempt to create an awesome dish and to, I assume you mean, decrease my production times without losing any quality for my guests, Alan Sternberg. Well, Hell yes, it's good in a food truck. I like food trucks actually. I mean, here in New York, I don't really get to eat out of, uh, very, very often. don't know. Do you ever eat in the food trucks? When I was in Portland, I ate in some, they're not really food trucks. They're more like kind of food kiosks, kind of, but I think they're great. And, you know, I've had Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog's Gastro Pub stuff down in the Florida and the Miami. I think they're I think they're good. I think it's, I think it's awesome because, uh, you know, they allow, uh, the thing that's good about
+
+[14:32] them is it's not just like schlock artists, jerk wads who are who are opening them. You know, it's like people who want to do a very finely focused
+
+[14:39] item at an inexpensive price. A lot of people I know who are doing it are focusing on quality. And so anytime you're going to bring quality and speed to a lot of people are reasonable price. Hell yes, bonus, right, Stas? Anyway. Uh, so, sous vide in a truck, uh, or low temperature in general, truck is a fantastic idea, uh, as, you know, as long as you can get
+
+[15:01] the, the, the bottlenecks going and get a circulator that you can run it in a truck or a CVAP or something to do your retherm,
+
+[15:06] or like, like, do you can do, if you plan your menu item properly? You can go from 0 to finished in a normal procedure straight out of a refrigerator. I give you an example. So I know I always talk about steak because I like cooking steak, but here's steak. So, um, I worked on a steak where I
+
+[15:27] did, uh, I did, it was a very thin ribsteak, like fairly thin. I forget the exact thing. about 3 quarters of an inch. I had it exactly calculated. But anyway, so what you do is, is you fully cook the thing through to 55 degrees 552 Celsius in a circulator. Cook it long enough to get the tenderization effects you want from me, it was about 2 hours in a bag in zippies, actually. So I didn't have to deal with, you know, board of health stuff. then chill it all the way down in a fridge. Uh, right? You know, don't throw it directly in ice water. Let it sit out to reabsorb some of it's moisture for a 2nd and then throw it in a fridge, get it down in a nice bed, get it down. Store it in the fridge at refrigeration temperature, right? Now, here's the trick. It's coming out cold, but it's thin, right? So what you do is you drop the steak in a deep fryer. Just drop the steak directly in a freaking deep fryer, right out of, right out of the, right out of the fridge into the deep fryer. 2 minutes on the button. It was all calculated based on thickness. Anyway, 2 minutes on the button. pull it out. Now, you've overcooked the outside. So unlike normal sous vide finishing. You need to rest this steak now. So it's 2 minutes in the fryer, 2 minutes rest on the plate, slice and out. Bang. And those steaks were perfect all the time. Now they had a little more of a cooked region on the outside than you would have in a normal sous
+
+[16:39] vide or low temperature steak, but they were just warm on
+
+[16:44] the in the middle. Then they were perfectly cooked throughout, and literally 4 minutes total and only 2 minutes of cook time from fridge to
+
+[16:52] plate, without having to have the steak sitting around in a circulator, without even having to have a circulator at service time at all. So if you get your portions done that way, then you
+
+[17:04] can, you're all of a sudden you're like master blaster genius. So, like, fried chicken, get your chicken pieces such that they just get warm in the center, and let's
+
+[17:13] say a 2 minute fry time, so you have to calculate what that is, pre-cook all of your white meat to 64, let's say. Be on the safe side, although I like 63, cook all of your leg meat to
+
+[17:24] 66, although 65 is what I like to do, but 66 is good. And then have the slices so that they'll warm through. Then you can, uh, you know, dry them out, batter them, chill them down. And now you can fry them from cold, you know, and then bam, bam, bam, bang, without having to hold warm. So in a truck, I would definitely do that rather than having to have a lot of worm holding. I would try to do mostly things that you can finish, you know, in whatever your finishing operation is. I mean, for me, it would always be frying because I love frying. Uh, but, um, like that. That gets rid of an extra step for the truck, which is gonna make it a lot easier. Or if you want to do really high end stuff, you could always hold things in a circulator, but it's great for that.
+
+[18:05] Anyway, right? Yes. Dave Anastasia, this is in from Andrew, and his last name is Jan Jigian, Jan Jigian, and I'll get to the pronunciation later because I butchered his name prior. I've been looking for, and I apologize, by the way, that both of the things you're about to mention, the auction's already ended because we've been gone for
+
+[18:25] 2 weeks. But hey, hoo, what are you gonna do? I've been looking for a cheapish circulator on the eBay and I found a couple of items. You know that eBay started by a guy who wanted to help his wife sell Pez, Pez dispensers?
+
+[18:35] Pez. Do you like Pez? I think they are gross, and I love them. Like, I can't like, I can't eat just one. I have to eat like the whole dang package of the pez, but they're not actually good. They remind me of the aspirin, the bears, the kids, children's, St. Joe's. Joseph's rather. Anyway, sorry, sorry, sorry. On the eBay and found a couple of items, both being sold by global machinery. I don't really know that. He says, not sure if you're familiar, but they're selling a lot of interesting equipment. I love the name though. Global machinery. I wish we had a name. That's an awesome name. Global machinery. Local machinery? Local? No, global. Global, global. Anyway, okay. The 1st is a poly-science, heating recirculator, model 210. Uh, and, you know, and the question is, do I have any? Now, that's an old poly-science, like kind of heater circulated with an in tube and an out tube. And I've used one similar, similar to that. And the 2nd one that you link to is a blue magic whirl water bath. Nastasia think likes the word whirl. I think it reminds her of something gross like a leaf fungus, whirl, right? Does now. Anyway. It seems like the 1st would work for low temperature cooking with the addition of tubing and a container. Not sure about the second one. Second one, by the way, for those of you that can't look at it on the web, like we can hear, actually, like I did before. One is ahead that you stick into a bath and then have tubes that you send outside or you can shunt them
+
+[19:58] into the out so that you don't go to an external with tubing and just put it in a
+
+[20:03] bath. So it's an older version of a kind of a current model circulator that's meant to go into a bath and then, you know, heat an external source, but you don't need to use it that way. And the 2nd is a contained water bath that has a drain
+
+[20:16] that it basically looks like a big kind of a bainary soup warmer thing. It's self contained just with a, you know, a PID controller in it. Anyway, it seems like the 1st we work for low temperature cooking with the addition of tubing. Not sure about the second. Are you familiar? and you think either is worth buying. PS, I love the show and it helped keep me sane this summer while I hike the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada. Thanks, Brian Zerbys. Can you believe, uh, uh, this one's not from Andrew, by the way? This is from Brian Zerbius. got my questions mixed up. Anyway, I'll get to Andrew a second. But can you believe that this guy hiked from Mexico to Canada? That's some crazy hiking. That's nutty bags. I mean, I've always want to do the Appalachian Trail. Someday I'll do the Appalachian Trail. Once my kids are in the college. I told my wife, hey, we're going to hike the Appalachian Trail. She said, yeah, shut up, whatever. Yeah, yeah, because she doesn't have to think about it because she got like another 10 years to worry about it. You know what I mean? Would you like to hike the Appalachian Trail sometime? No. Now you don't like hiking? No, I do. I just wouldn't want to do it in the US. Too many fungi along the way. Why would you want to do it in the US? I want to go somewhere abroad. Why? Why can't you hike here and hike there? You're not what? I'm not patriotic like you. Yeah, patriotic. on election day? It's a freaking election day. I voted already by the way. I know. Did you vote? Yes, I did, but yeah. It has nothing to do with patriot. No, I don't give a rat, but you really like to you really like to explore America? I don't. That's that's all. This is what I deal with on a daily folks people. First of all, I don't care. Like, I happen to love America quite a bit, all right? But even if you, even if you didn't love America, the way I love America, like, uh, we have some beautiful freaking scenery
+
+[21:54] here, and the Appalachian Trail is not about putting on your dirdle and going to Oktoberfest. It's about natural freaking beauty, which we have to have a lot. I want to go somewhere far away. and hike. Then fly to where is it? People, seriously. Tennessee? It runs through New York. It runs from Maine to Georgia. So you would do the whole thing. Yeah, I want to do the whole damn thing. Anyway, takes a couple months. And everyone always, they start down south and then they quit, like, they, which I probably do too. People are like, crap on this, and then they quit. Where? Well, it depends on how far, how far you got me. long, long, and it's tough. like through the mountains and you can't carry a lot because otherwise you're carrying a lot and you
+
+[22:36] can't. And so people, like, all the, a lot of times they'll, they'll bring too much on the Appalachian Trail and they'll have to throw it away or shed it halfway through. You can mail stuff to yourself halfway along so you can pick it up at these weird little zones along there to get food and, I don't know, apparently you smell really bad. But hey, it's no news to us here in New York. We none of us have shower for like a week. Oh. Anyway. Well, those of us don't have hot water. Anyway, you know, we're sponging ourselves off. So, anyway, so back to the circulars. Here's the problem with the old, I don't know how we get to the Appalachian Trail from circulators. Oh, yeah, yeah, he hiked. hiked, he hiked. Okay, listen. The problem with old circulators is this. Often they are on their last legs. They've been used in a lab for a long, long time, and they've been packed away, and the newer circulators are a lot better, not in terms of their temperature control, but in terms of the bearings that are in the
+
+[23:28] motors. So the motor lifetime and old circulator is not nearly what the motor life is like in a new circulator or a new circulating water bath.
+
+[23:36] Now, add to that, the fact that the older one has also been used for a long time and also sometimes with questionable items, right? The 2nd problem is the electronics in the older circulators can also go bad after a long
+
+[23:48] time. It's because they've been exposed to moist environment for a long, long time. So most of the time in an old circulator, what's going to go bad is either the bearings or the electronics. And they're all fixable, most of them. But it's a crapshoot. Now, if you get one that happens to work or is in good shape, then God bless, they work. You know what I mean? But, uh, especially nowadays, like, like, the ones you sell, we're selling for about a 100 bucks and you, you have like maybe a 20 to 30% chance that it's going to be no good. So you toss that money down the drain. Within a couple of months, the average circulator is going to be between 350 and 500 for something it's guaranteed to work. You know what I mean? So I would probably go that route instead, unless you like to take
+
+[24:35] crapshoots, and I'm with you. I do like to take crapshoots. Anywho, now on to Andrew, uh, John Jiggins, John Jigian,
+
+[24:44] Jigian. Okay, I'm going to get to admit. on fry oil. To Nastasia and Dave, thanks for covering my fat saturation and frying question a few weeks back. I was a bit behind on listening to the podcast and just heard this segment the other day. I had a follow up question. If continuous batch frying operations use a blend of fresh and partially oxidized fats, can a home cook do the same
+
+[25:02] thing? Save the previous batch of oil and blend it with fresh the next time around. Also, I forgive you for butchering my name on the air. You are right. I should have provided pronunciation assistance. It is a hard G, as in pig. Otherwise, you had it right. By the way, I like that someone's like, G as in pig, not G as in something else. Like, he's like, pig. saturated, right? It's good. Saturated fat's pig. anyway. Finally, I seen her recall Dave saying he was a sample of Weymouth Burrows, a fan of Weymouth Burrows, which reminds me of one of my favorite old food related WSB
+
+[25:33] quotes. I hate sprouts. They put them on everything they serve. Eating sprouts is like going down on a robot. Damn. Damn, I'm hearing some dams from the engineering room. Oh, wow. Damn. Cheers. Andrew. John Jigian. Well, I mean, it's a robot. You could do anything you want to a robot, right? You can't have an x-rated robot, can you? I mean, it's a robot. Uh, I don't think I have ever mentioned that. I mean, like, I, I, like, almost everyone have read some burrows, like, Naked Lunch freaked me the heck out, because I read it as a teenager. I was like, oh my god. Have you read that stuff, stuff? You've never read Burroughs? Jack and Joe, your Burrows readers, right? Me, no, Joe. What the hell's wrong with that? Somewhat. You know, great American... Look, 1st of all, anyone who's a connoisseur of the crazy has to like a little bit of the burrows. Burrows, when he was like, you know, 75 or 80 was
+
+[26:25] something his last boyfriend was like, I don't know, it's crazy. Go research some burrows. He's a nut job. Anyway, whether you like him, whether you hate him, that is one of the great sprout quotes and I believe entirely accurate. Now, back to your frying question. Usually when you're frying at home, if you're actually deep frying, the 1st couple of things you fry,
+
+[26:46] especially if you've overheated it, which is normally what happens in home frying, you've ruined the oil enough to have it be a good frying situation.
+
+[26:52] Um, That said, you can save a portion of your oil and blend it back. But fry, the fry oil really kind of tempers itself out pretty
+
+[27:04] quickly. But yeah, I don't see why you can't, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to, you don't want to add so much back that it degrades before you're finished frying. So here's the answer. If usually at the end of frying, the stuff's tasting bad and the stuff's smelling bad and you smell that kind of
+
+[27:20] fishy broken down fat aroma in your kitchen, which by the way, that smell makes me want to puke. you like that smell stuff, it makes you want to puke, right? Yeah, if you're smelling that at the end of your frying, then you can't afford to have it go off any faster. If at the end of your frying sessions, the oil smells entirely neutral and
+
+[27:39] awesome, and when you throw a crouton into it and eat it, it still tastes clean, then, yeah, you could say some of that and add it back.
+
+[27:48] It's not going to be a problem. So it depends on how abusive you are to your oil. That makes sense to us? anyway. Going down on a robot. Michael Napkin writes in. Hey, Dave and Nastasia, oh. I was pondering, uh, our friend Michael Nackin, right? I don't think I don't think I've ever met him personally. Have you ever met him personally? Didn't no. I thought he came to the bar. Did he? I don't know. I don't think not when I was there. I was pondering why refrigeration always breaks down while stoves and ovens are much more reliable. I'll tell you why. I think it's a freaking racket. You notice how your home fridge never breaks down? Hey, Jack and Joe, is your home fridge ever broken? No, and I've lived in a lot of places. Yeah, right? Stas, is your home fridge ever broken? My parents, Your parents, but how old was that fridge? Yeah, right. I mean, like, you know, it's the 1st fridge ever made. You know? What about you? Have you ever had a fridge? No, my home fridges have never broken for a four-year period, I had a commercial fridge in my house and it broke 4 times. Commercial refrigeration sucks. Here's a little known fact, commercial refrigeration sucks. Uh, and uh, you know, by and large. I mean, you know, I like the good folks at, you know, Randell. But, and I think it's a racket. Here's what commercial refrigeration people will tell you. They'll say, they'll say, look, a home fridge. You don't have to open and close it all the time. You open and close the commercial fridges and they go through a lot more abuse and that's why they break. No, it's because they build them like crap. They vibrate. You ever notice how loud commercial refrigeration is compared to a normal refrigerator? is because they just don't put the stuff together as well. They don't insulate it as well and they don't solder it as well. There's no reason why a compressor should rattle itself apart, develop a leak, throw out its
+
+[29:28] refrigerant and have to be recharged every couple of years like you do in commercial refrigeration. No reason. Anyway, enough of a rant on commercial refrigeration. Well, well, a lot of people have had their home stoves break, and your gas regular old gas stove is a freaking demon. The only thing that breaks a commercial gas stoves is the little bezo valve in the oven, or if you have an electric one, they break all the time. whatever. Anyway, yeah, so stoves reliable, especially gas ones. And that's one of the reasons, by the way, that Americans are so, aside from the fact that our natural gas is so freaking cheap and that, um, and that the feedback loop for a, for a cook looking at a gas flame is one of the great, uh, kind of visual feedback loops of all time, right up there with the, with the 2 switches and a paddle and a
+
+[30:12] Vita Prep. One of the reasons that we favor gas over electricity, especially induction,
+
+[30:18] is, even though it's horribly inefficient, is because they never break. gas ranges, never break. Anyway, rarely break. Okay. Anyway, Michael's pondering wire refrigeration breaks down and he says, obviously, it is primarily because of compressors, which are a lot more complicated than just piping gas somewhere and burning the crap out of
+
+[30:38] it, like a stove does, which goes back to the idea of entropy. I'm no physicist, but I believe when you're adding heat to a system, you're increasing the
+
+[30:45] entropy, and therefore doing what the universe wants to do while taking heat out of something reduces entropy. So you're fighting an uphill battle. Well, actually, the heat and entropy are separate, right? So entropy is a measure of kind of the disorderness or the number of states that something can take on. Well, you know, heat is a, you know, form of energy that you are adding and removing. So changes in entropy and heat often go hand in hand. I mean, obviously you can have isentropic, i.e. same, same entropy things, same heat things, and you can have something where heat doesn't go in and out,
+
+[31:15] but anyway. Anyway, so in other words, they are separate. They're the 2 main things that you're dealing with when you're dealing with kind of thermodynamic changes, but they're
+
+[31:22] not they're not the same. Anyway. Anyhow, back to it, Michael. Anyhow, all this amusing got me thinking about whether you could chill food by using an endothermic reaction, i.e. one
+
+[31:31] that, uh, one that gets gets colder, one that uh, absorbs energy, the opposite of burning fuel to produce an exothermic reaction, rather than by compressing and expanding a gas. I found one patent on the topic, and it was about using salt, potassium, I think it was potassium chloride or something like that. Uh, I found one patent, uh, interestingly assigned to the Coca-Cola company, and apparently motorhome refrigerators work on an endothermic reaction involving uh, ammonia as well. Who knew? So my questions are, do you know of any other commercial systems that use endothermic reactions for refrigeration? And do you think there are any potential for having them potential for them to make more reliable restaurant refrigeration or any other ideas for solving that problem?
+
+[32:09] Thanks, Michael Nakkin. Okay, so listen, here's the deal. So, an endothermic, there's the 2 things that you point to are 2 different kinds of reactions. So in a normal, like endothermic reactions take place because, um, so normally most reactions that take place spontaneously or exothermic, they give off heat. In order for something endothermic to take place naturally without having to add anything to it. The entropy increase needs to be so great that it basically wants to happen anyway. So certain salts, when they dissolve, certain things when they dissolve. Um, they absorb heat, make things colder, right? Because it's so favored for them to dissolve in that situation that it actually it's actually overrides the fact that they need to absorb heat energy from the outside. So that's how those salts work. And that patent that you did was Coca-Cola was trying to figure out a way to make a soda machine in
+
+[33:00] space because compressor situations, normal compressor base refrigeration don't work properly in a 0 gravity situation. So they were trying to figure out a way that they could add salts that have an endothermic reaction when they dissolve and create a refrigeration system that way. It's not so efficient to use as a continuous refrigeration system on
+
+[33:20] Earth because it's harder to regenerate the salt. And after you dissolve it, then you got to remove the liquid again from it, using heat to boil it down and then redo it. So it's not so efficient a way to do it here on Earth. But you can use it for individual cold packs and they sell cold packs that work that way where you have an endothermic chemical reaction. And then once that chemical reaction is over, then sometimes you can regenerate
+
+[33:41] it and sometimes you can't. But it's not necessarily so good for long-term situations. The RV thing is an extremely interesting type of refrigeration, all the refrigeration that we use, you compress a liquid, condense it down, and then spray it out, and as it expands,
+
+[33:57] right? That change in pressure, it creates the cold, right? So that's where it comes from. That, you know, acquires heat absorbs from the outside. Boom, right? So it's expansion. 2 pressures. RV refrigerators work in a single pressure system. And what's awesome about that is it doesn't require any moving parts. So the way they work is you heat up a mixture of ammonia and
+
+[34:20] water, because ammonia wants to dissolve in water, right, very badly. So you heat that up and you boil the ammonia and the whole system's under one, but large, but under one pressure. The ammonia boils off. As it boils off, the water is stripped away from it. It goes up physically up, like, you know, gravity wise, up because it's now a gas, goes into a condenser, where the ammonia under pressure, under the same
+
+[34:43] pressure. The whole system's under one pressure. That the key. Turns back to a liquid in the condenser, and then drifts back into a zone, also the same pressure that has primarily hydrogen gas.
+
+[34:53] And what, and strangely, very counterintuitively, actually. What happens when the ammonia goes from being a liquid in a pure ammonia
+
+[35:00] environment, to being added to a gaseous hydrogen environment, is it evaporates. And the reason it evaporates, is it there's a very low, what's called partial pressure of ammonia in that hydrogen
+
+[35:13] region. And so the ammonia needs to evaporate to kind of ameliorate that lack of partial pressure that it has. And that requires a lot of energy, which it absorbs
+
+[35:22] from the inside of the RV fridge. Then that, uh, now heavier thing trickles down where it meets the water again and is absorbed into the water and goes and
+
+[35:32] boils and the whole thing keeps going like a big cycle, uh, and all you're doing is adding heat in the, with
+
+[35:38] the heater and removing it using room temperature, uh, air in the condenser section. So it's a very interesting system. You can run. In fact, if you have a camp uh, that only has propane, you run your fridge and your uh, blah, blah. What's the word blah, blah, I'm looking for? Your stove and your refrigerator off of the one propane thing. So you can use it. I don't know why they don't use them in large systems and restaurants. Maybe they're, I mean, they should, they should be reliable. I don't know why. It's an interesting question, Michael. something we should look at, right? Something maybe to look at? Anyway. Okay, uh, Mike, uh, Matthew writes in about sausages. Hey Dave, Nastasia, Nastasia, and Crew. I had a couple of questions on circulating sausage. This coming Sunday, which is over, unfortunately, sorry, Matthew, I'm throwing a party where I'll be serving about 100 sausages. I want to circulate the sausages ahead of time to eliminate as much day of prep, uh, day of prep cooking as possible, and then reheat them and sear them on a grill. Do you feel that the quality of the sausages will deteriorate if they are cooked 24 to 48 hours ahead of
+
+[36:37] time? My plan is to circulate them for about an hour and a 65 degree bath. I chose 65 since they are chicken sausages, and I think that's a safe temp for them. That's true. Any other suggestions on circulating sausages. Any good ideas on a liquid to use in the bag with a chicken and chorizo sausage? I'm pretty curious about how best to hold the circulated sausages and how long they can be held without deteriorating quality. Thanks for any help on this. Also, now then listen, right back because your event might have been canceled because it was in
+
+[37:05] Williamsburg, and so it might be in the future now. It was supposed to be on 1028, right? That was right when the hurricane was hitting, right? Okay. So, uh, the company Landhouse is throwing a grand opening bash at the woods bar in Williamsburg where they've started serving food on a permanent basis. The menu on the day is going to include heritage pork from
+
+[37:22] Heritage Foods. And the party was supposed to be 2 to 6 PM on 1028 at the woods on South 4th Street between Wyth and Kent Williamsburg. Maybe it's going to, maybe it was postponed, in which case, you know, please put a plug in. Heritage Radio will tweet it out, will you not, Jack? You will. He'll tweet it out. will. He'll tweet it out. Yes. Okay. The thing you have to worry about with sausages being cooked ahead of time is to get all the oxygen out of the bag. You can use a liquid, uh, but, you know, that a regular, like a water-based liquid, but I would stick with a fat chorizo fat would be a really good choice, actually, because you don't really need that much, especially if you're putting it in zippies to cook off.
+
+[37:54] The problem with sausages held for a long time is that with any sauce is the development of rancidity, a.k.a. what's known as warmed over flavors.
+
+[38:04] And what happens is, is that it's auto oxidation and the further things that are taken out, the further chemical breakdown of fats, when they're exposed to oxygen, and the weird thing about warmed over flavor is it happens in animal
+
+[38:18] meats because it's the actual cell membrane fats, the phosphol lipid things that break down, because
+
+[38:23] you, when you cook something and then hold it afterwards, you release iron from
+
+[38:27] hemoglobin, uh, and other iron containing things, that iron now becomes available to help catalyze auto oxidation, just like in a deep
+
+[38:34] fryer fatty ashy tissues. So, but it requires oxygen. So I get rid of oxygen. I would add an antioxidant, rosemary is a great antioxidant, but nastasia can't add it because she's exposed to too much rosemary during the time she was working with
+
+[38:48] Cesare Casella, our good friend. But lover of rosemary. Vitamin E. You could add any other sort of fat-based antioxidant. Um, and there's a couple uh, things you can look at on the. Also, if you pre-sear the sausages, a little bit to give a mired reaction or throw Meyer stuff, that might have an antioxidant effect that will decrease warmed over
+
+[39:07] flavor. And also not storing for too long is going to reduce the amount of what's called warmed over
+
+[39:12] flavor. Just do a search on warmed over flavor or WOF. Specifically, the mechanism responsible for warmed over flavor and cooked meat in 1983. Also, you could Wikitard, Wikipedia, if you want it. Also, the 2005 article, Comparison of Natural Rosemary Extract, and BHA, BHT, for relative anti-accidents, effectiveness, and pork sausage, and the antioxidant mired reaction products,
+
+[39:36] application and sausage, by Lingert and Lungren in 2007. Take a look at that. And then we're ripping through this stuff. Deer, uh, Daniel Price writes, Dear Nastasia, Jack, uh, Dave and Joe, hi again from the West Coast. I want to thank you all again for the show and I have a couple of cocktail questions. First this weekend, I made a big batch of clarified Bartlett pair of juice using the Agar Agar method. For fun. I tried treating my puree with Pectinex Ultra SPL and sleeping at 45 degrees Celsius for 20 minutes to increase the yield. It was hard to tell if it worked. Is there some visual clue when using Pectinex? Regardless, the Agar method worked and the juice was great, and I was able to combine it with champagne and pair of brandy for a
+
+[40:14] crystal for crystal clear pair of Bellinis. But I have a lot of juice left. Can I freeze clarified juices without significant problems? Yes, you can freeze them without significant problems. If that juice was stable to begin with. So a normal, you know, like lime juice is not stable, so you can't freeze it and hope to preserve it, but pear juice is relatively stable, and so you can freeze it and preserve
+
+[40:32] it. Uh, you might want to let it sit longer. You should be able to tell, it should self-clarify a little bit unless it's a thick puree, in which case you won't see it, but you're definitely going to increase your yield by adding
+
+[40:42] peck to next beforehand. sometimes dramatically. Second, I was wondering, what do you think about the efficacy of digestives? Do they really aid the digestion or is that just marketing? If yes, do you think the flavorings matter or is it just the alcohol content? I've always thought it was kind of BS, but, you know, I'm going to look into that more. I didn't have a chance this morning to look in because there's a bunch of articles about serving herbs to chickens and
+
+[41:02] rabbits, seeing whether it increases their growth weight when you're feeding them in farms. And so, like, that might be an indication whether they actually work in humans. So more on that, more on that later. Um, okay. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get through these. I'm going to get through these. How Jack, how much longer do I have? Oh, guys. Well, again, about 3 minutes. Okay. Okay, Joshua, you have a beer question. I'm going to get back to you on that beer next week, but okay, now, Nastasia, with the email that came through, I'm going to pronounce your name
+
+[41:38] incorrectly, I remember you from the class because he's like, he's anyway, interesting stories. Hey, Cole Miles, but Cole Miles, but like he said, he gave the press... But he gave the pronunciation. Yeah, but I can't see the pronunciation on my thing. That's the same as for me too. I don't what it meant. of... Right, yeah, I didn't come. Any First, please tell Dave I had a boatload of funding a sous vide low temp course at the International Culinary Center. was great. Thanks so much. Second, I would like to get Dave's recommendations for one, the best high-end home extrusion pasta maker, and two the best high-end home ice cream maker. Hope you're doing well. I continue to look forward to your weekly show. By the way, congratulations on passing the 100 show, Mark. Thanks in advance. Okay, here are the 2 machines I would look at for pasta. The Arco Bellino, the one that ideas and food that gets, they pumped that all the time because they were given one for free, by the way. No, they were given one for free. Oh, it's a fantastic machine. I used that one at Star Chefs a couple of years ago, and it is awesome. I think it's around 3 grand, 2.5 , 3 grand, something like that. It's amazing. The guys at JB Prince don't carry that one. They carry a different one that they call Dolly, which I haven't used, but I've seen it. And Tim Mussig, my friend at J.B. Prince, assures me that that one also works in a similar way to the Arcabellino. On home ice cream. Most people use that $350, uh, kind of, uh, um,
+
+[42:52] Musso machine, like the Lelo, Musso machine. But I can't really recommend it because the batch times are too long on it. And that's in the $300 range. Now, if you jump up, you have to jump. Now you're jumping way up to like the several $1000 range. Paco jets are awesome. It's not a traditional ice cream machine, but they are awesome. Now, the one that I always wanted to get was not, it has not been available in the U.S. for a long time, but they still
+
+[43:15] make, and you can get in European websites, is the Pronto 4, which is made by Carpagani. Carpagani machines are amazing. The Pronto 4 is a small vertical batch machine that I believe does one
+
+[43:27] quart, and there, by all accounts, I never used one. Awesome. And then when I was researching that to make sure that they still make it, They make a new thing. Carpagani makes it I've never used before, but please check this one out and look on the web. It's got a batch time of, they say, 5 minutes, and it uses a small canister like a paco jet, but the canister has a freezing mechanism in it.
+
+[43:46] Now it's only got 300 watts of, I think, 3 or 400 watts of freezing, but it does small batches at a time, and they claim 5 minute batch
+
+[43:54] times, and only 2 or 3 minutes in between batches. It's called the freeze and go. And it's meant to be an extremely small unit. It's the size of kind of a relatively large drip coffee maker. And so if I had more time to research it, had time to use one, I definitely would take a look at the Carpagani, freeze and go. All right, here's the last one I'm going to be able to get to today because I'm going to get ripped off the air. I have a couple questions I'm going to miss. Ill get you next week. I promise, even though some of them are already too late. Greg writes in about sauces. Hiya, Nastasia, not Dave, and not Jack, but maybe Indie Jesus. Wow. Wow. Anyway. Wow, yeah. that means you have to answer it. I'll read it, you answered. First, I hope you folks and all your friends and family in New York City and New Jersey are recovering from Sandy. I guess I need to get out more because you were all on my mind a lot during the storm. Well, thank you. Sadly, because of travel, I'm often weeks behind on the show, but I listen to each and every episode, like it's church for a dying sinner. Maybe Indie Jesus will save me with his hipster blessings. A fellow from New Zealand named Rory wrote in with a question about brown, the brown band at the top of a blended pepper sauce. Rory thought this might be due to oxidation, and I think this saved Dave on a red
+
+[45:01] herring, based on the recipe of the sauce, vinegar, pepper, garlic, ginger, and salt, and this is important with no other additives. I think we are seeing simple stratification here. I think Rory is seeing capsation rising to the top of the bottle. To prevent this, I'd add a little xanthan gum or less it into the mix to keep things emulsified. This leaves to a question for a 3 to 6 months room temperature shelf life, which is better in the long term. Xanthan or less thin? Let's assume we've already dealt with oxidation and ascorbic acid. My bet is on less than because it works on a molecular level, whereas Xanthan works more on mechanical
+
+[45:32] level, what do you think? You guys rock? Take care, Greg. All right. Well, I mean, they're different. One is a stabilizer. So I would definitely have Xanthans going to stop things because it's going to form a weak gel over time. That's how salad dressings are stabilized. And the other one's an emulsifier, which actually makes it easier for things to stay together. I don't know that I would choose lesser than as an emulsifier. I'd probably choose a different emulsifier, but typically like when we're doing long-term held sauces, We use a combination of an emulsifier and a stabilizer. So Xanthan plus an emulsifier. So if you like a lesson, use that. I would use both. In other words, it's not one or the other. And I think they're going to rip me off the air, but listen, Ben, Ben Wack, if you're going to buy your rice cooker now, he wanted to know whether he has an old Zoji Rushi, and he wants to know whether he should get that or whether there's a better one. Zoji Rushi for my money, make the best rice cookers on the market. I own one, have used one, Neuro Fuzzy, the big one for years, induction, and it rocks. I don't know whether the pressure cooking thing is a gimmick. I don't know about the alpha versus beta starch. I'll try to do more research on it, but pressure cooking is going to make brown rice softer and cook it faster and everyone knows waiting for brown rice is a pain in the butt. Cooking is used.
+
+[46:58] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Many people in our food community have been seriously impacted by Superstorm Sandy, and our hearts go out to them. At HRN, we've been covering these stories since the storm hit. To learn more, visit our website at www.heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:52] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to live in the back of Report of Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network, every
+
+[1:00] Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering room, and today, we have a special guest,
+
+[1:10] Piper from Booker and Dax Research Lab downtown. Hey, Pipes, how you doing? Good? Yeah, it's called a microphone. You gotta talk into it. So I have another person I can brutalize on here, right? It's good business, no? It's good. Anyway, calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. All right, so let's get to some of the email questions that we have already. Uh, we, oh, no, again, with the not getting the right thing on my iPad. Okay. This is from Paul K. Hi all. Thanks for your work on the great show, and thanks for answering all my past questions. My latest question is about baking. In general, I'm happy with the results of my once per month attempt at baking bread. However, I'm always a little disappointed by the small or perhaps non-existent oven spring that I get. I haven't had any real life training. My only knowledge is from books, but my impression from those books is that
+
+[1:59] oven spring is to be expected and should be noticeable. Although my bread does rise nicely before putting it in the oven, i.e. I guess when he's proofing. As I say, I'm always a little disappointed with the amount it springs during those 1st few minutes of baking. Perhaps I simply shouldn't expect to see anything dramatic. Any help would be most appreciated all the best, Paul. Okay. All right, here's a, the problem, 1st of all, I'm by no means a bread expert. There are people who all they do all day, all night is think about bread. And so, you know, you always hesitate when there's people like that out there to make any kind of statement at all. But that said, I feel confident that I don't know enough information right now to
+
+[2:40] answer your question. So what we need for a real troubleshooting of your bread recipe. First of all, what style of bread are you making? What are you looking to get? Like, do you want a dense crumb structure, a very open crumb structure? What kind of crust? Crumb structure is a gross word, huh? Yeah. Nastasia just made her crumb structure face, which is very similar to vegan face. Like, slight difference. Only I can tell. Uh, but the, so there's that, right? And then in general, I need to know kind of what hydration level you're using. So, like, what kind of, uh, you know, what's, what's the oliflower, 1st of all, what your, how much water you're adding to the flour, and then how you're raising it and forming it, uh, and proofing
+
+[3:23] it and whatnot. In general. Oven spring is generated. First of all, most of the stuff that I, that I read on the, on the, on the inner line, what do you call it? internet, on the internet about oven spring, a lot of it is kind of BS. Specifically, I don't think that some people say this because you're increasing the
+
+[3:43] rate of yeast reaction at the last minute as the bread is baking, and that's what's doing it. I think that's almost, almost probably certainly not the case because the oven spring happens very, very quickly and probably not enough time for you to start reacting and all of a sudden producing CO2 and overdrive.
+
+[3:57] I think what's going on, uh, is you need a high initial heat, uh, high initial burst of heat in the oven to rapidly expand the gases in the cell of the dough
+
+[4:08] structure and then set the dough structure before the dough structure breaks. And so what you're looking at to get a good oven spring is, one, there has to be a good gluten network in there that's going to allow it to hold the gas as it expands.
+
+[4:21] Uh, it's going to have to be uh, kind of formed properly, and it's going to have to have enough air bubbles in it already that can expand, right? So it's formation of the, of the, you know, right number of, and, you know,
+
+[4:33] amount, size of air bubbles, getting them kind of big enough, but keeping the structure of the dough intact so that it can raise up
+
+[4:40] and uh, and spring, getting up very high heat, both from the bottom and from
+
+[4:44] the uh, top. So with a baking stone at the bottom with a very initial high preheat, and then with steam injection or some form of steam to get a rapid, uh, rapid heat transfer into the loaf on
+
+[4:55] the on the end. Forget, I'm not even talking about the actual development of what the crust is like, which is another thing that steam can do, but I'm just
+
+[5:01] saying rapid heat into the dough. A 3rd thing is a proper slashing pattern in the
+
+[5:07] dough will allow heat to get in and allow it to expand more, like physically allow it to expand more. So there's the slashing patterns that you make on it. There's a proper formation of the dough, proper proofing of it, like, and making sure that the dough has the proper structure to get it to work properly.
+
+[5:25] But very difficult to figure out exactly which one of those problems you have. Most likely your oven's not tricked out enough for it. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what kind of what kind of oven that you're using. There's an interesting book that I haven't read before, but that gets very high recommendations, and I want to read it called Bread Science, the chemistry and craft of
+
+[5:45] breadmaking, which came out fairly recently. And there's a bunch of chunks on the, you know, on the internet that you can read of that on their, on their website. And then I would look at, um, you know, a fresh loaf in those other kind of like large kind of uh, conglomeration of uh, bloggers who get together and talk about this stuff. I mean, if you're just baking occasionally, sometimes it can be difficult to wade through all the information that they
+
+[6:08] provide, and of course, a lot of it's red herrings, because everyone, you know, like all of us are just experimenting all the time. But anyway, I hope that helps. Doesn't seem like made any sense at all. No, yeah. All right. Hello and good morning. Team cooking issues. I like that. Team cooking issues, not cooking issues, team, team cooking issues. App appreciate that. Okay. Can you describe the pros and cons of open and closed baths for low temperature cooking? A friend is tempted to purchase a sous vide supreme rather than polycience immersion circulator for home use, because the salesperson suggested that an open bath will cause the temperature to fluctuate and cause a loss of control.
+
+[6:40] The guy was a schmuck. Thank you, Matthew in Chicago. Well, I don't know the man that you're discussing personally. I didn't see him, but based on the one statement we have of his, which is that an
+
+[6:52] open bath circulator is going to have large temperature fluctuations. Yes, he is a schmuck. So if the rest of his thinking is in line with the thinking he gave you right there, then yes, a schmuck call is in order. The main difference between a sous vide supreme and a real immersion circulator isn't necessarily, whether it's covered or not, because it's very easy to cover a, you know, a bath when
+
+[7:16] you when you use an immersion circulator. The main difference is in the circulation itself. Now, to go back for a 2nd in case, I don't know, in case, like someone strapped you down to a chair and this, your torture is to listen to this radio show and you haven't listened to it before, what we're talking about
+
+[7:31] or pieces of equipment that allow you to do low temperature cooking, cooking at very precise temperatures that are very close to the actual temperature you want to cook to.
+
+[7:39] All right? So that's low temperature cooking. And the main piece of equipment that most of us use to do that is the immersion circulator. And what that does is it keeps water at a very, very, or anything, really, any
+
+[7:49] liquid at a very accurate temperature and allows you to do all these new effects that you have for low temperature cooking. Now, there's you notice the word immersion circulator. So there's circulation of water and the circulation is what allows you to get very even temperatures over the entire bath, you know, within like a couple tenths of a degree.
+
+[8:06] Now, if you don't cover that circulating bath, what's going to happen is you will get evaporation off of the surface of
+
+[8:14] the bath, right? And so you'll be losing a lot of heat. And if you didn't have adequate circulation, you will get a temperature stratification in the bath, right? I mean, no, no doubt. Obviously, you'll get temperature stratification. But, um, adequate circulation is going to prevent any real stratification of temperature, uh, once you get any reasonable death below the bottom of
+
+[8:36] the below the surface of the water. Now, if you have an unstirred bath, right? The situation is horrible. What happens if you do not cover an unstirred bath, you will get constant evaporation off of the surface, and you will get, in essence, over time, a temperature gradient established as water evaporates off of the top of the bath, and by
+
+[8:59] evaporating, cools it, because it's evaporative cooling. And so you'll get a, you'll get a temperature gradient set up that probably is fairly static over a long cook once it settles out, I would
+
+[9:08] guess. Assuming the humidity of your room remains constant. Now, aside from the fact, what I just said that you
+
+[9:16] must at all times cover a non-circulating bath, and that you don't need to necessarily cover a circulating bath to get an accurate
+
+[9:26] temperature. It is always good practice to cover a circulating bath, always good practice because, uh, you lose so much energy through the top of the, um, to the top of the bath, uh, you know, as things evaporate,
+
+[9:40] that A, uh, sometimes in larger bath situations, your circulator might not have enough power to get it up to the temperature that you want because they only typically have between 750 and a 1000 watts of heating
+
+[9:49] power. Uh, two, you are going to take a lot longer to come up to temperature than you otherwise would.
+
+[9:55] And three, you're going to be evaporating off stuff like a mother. And so even over relatively short cooking times, you're going to lose
+
+[10:04] water, over long cooking times, like overnight, you could potentially boil or not boil, but evaporate all the water out of your bath and your product can be ruined.
+
+[10:11] And fourth, in a circulated bath, if you've done a bad job and not put a rack or some sort of weight on top of your
+
+[10:19] food such that it's like definitively sunk under the surface of the liquid, you know, if you cover it, even if a little bit pokes up, you'll still get a fairly close temperature, as long as the thing's totally sealed and covered up to what you want,
+
+[10:31] it's just not as effective a heat transfer mechanism. So, always a good idea to cover a bath, the only exception being if you have a reheat bath at a relatively low temperature during service and you're going in and out of it all the time. But under other circumstances, I always, always recommend covering the bath. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. How you doing, Nastasia? Good. Yeah? Anything good happening? We got some good news on the Booker and Dax front. Tristan Willie. Uh, you know, the opening, uh, you know, the guy who opened it with us, you know, uh, manager of Booker, one best bartender in the country, according to
+
+[11:07] Eater, even asking. Wow, you guys would click on the, uh, click on the, on the capiton there, right? So that was good news, right? It's good business. Love myself and Tristan, a little too tall for my taste, but other than that, good man, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, okay. Uh, we have a question in from uh, Matt Mincer on brines. Hello cooking issues, folks. I've got a question or 3 about brines. When I barbecue pork or chicken, I make a brine with a heavy dose of my dry rub in it. The theory being that the water is being drawn into the meat and will carry some of that flavor from the spice with it. But I was listening to one of your podcasts where Harold McGee said that the flavor molecules from spices are probably too large to penetrate the cells of the
+
+[11:49] meat. The question I have is, am I wasting my time and my spices by adding them to the brine. Has anybody studied which flavor molecules will penetrate the meat if any. And finally, how much brining is too much? It seems at some point the osmosis would reach equilibrium and anything more would give diminishing returns. I'm sure it depends on the cut of meat, but is there any rule of thumb, thanks, Matt. And a PS I wrote in a few weeks ago about using mason jars in my centrifuge, and for the record, they work about 75% of the time. The other 25, not so much. I'm assuming what that means is like awful things happened, right? And when you assume, Piper, that what he means is awful things have happened. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. that's my guess Put your headphones on. So, yeah, this is Piper's 1st time on the radio. He, you know, he's not so much with the with the radio thing. He's from Vermont. don't have radios there yet. Right? Is that true, Piper? Very true. Yeah. So here's the deal. I think you're pretty much right and Harold's pretty much right. And that most brines don't really penetrate the meat to a very large distance. And so you're probably wasting a good bit of your spices. However, like brining something, uh, hold on a sec, we're getting some sort of feedback action. You getting the gear in that jack, some sort of feedback action? Piper's phone. It's Piper's phone. Nice. Uh, Vermont. So the, uh, the, the, the thing is, is that, um, I think you could probably get pretty much the same uh, reaction by doing your brine and then rubbing your spices on after it comes out of the
+
+[13:15] brine. I mean, that's what I would do. Salt, obviously, gets carried into the meat, because it's an extremely small molecule. Uh, you know, I don't really know what the penetration effects of something like sugar is. Nitrates penetrate in, obviously, otherwise curing wouldn't work, but larger molecules tend, I think, not to make it into into the meat. I think that's accurate fact. Acids tend to do certain work, but they tend not to penetrate far, which is why you get kind of a different texture on the surface of a
+
+[13:46] meat or any place where there's a cleft in the meat where things can get into it. You can get effect from acids and intermuscular connections and stuff, but you're not going to get an effect from
+
+[13:55] something like that in the dead center of a piece of meat in any reasonable
+
+[13:59] amount of time. I think you're right. I think that, you know, there is a diminishing uh, diminishing return time, but that diminishing return time is going to depend uh, almost primarily on the thickness of the piece of meat you use and the brine strength
+
+[14:13] that you use. So there's no real, no real rule of thumb on brining the same way that would be on, let's say, kind of curing where everything's been written down by, you know, the USDA and the various curing authorities
+
+[14:25] on it. I mean, Piper, you know any rule of thumb? Now, you disagree with anything I've said? No, yeah, nice, nice. I need some, you know, you need to, like, you do disagree with me. Are you going to be like Nastasia or you don't disagree with me on error? and then later you're going to tell me I'm a douche? No he'll tell me. He'll tell you that I'm a douche. And then you'll tell me and I'll yell at you. Is that how this is going to work? chain of command. No, jeez. Oh, geez. All right, listen. Hey Jack, let's go to our 1st commercial break and come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[15:04] You're listening to Kill Me in the Summertime by Dead Stars on the HeritageRadioNetwork.org. I know I Like is what they say, sunny races game. Everything I'm moving for, but I need you in the summertime. You're going just before the fall. still crush me in the wintertime so at once
+
+[16:10] Bringation Being underground. Trying to understand. Things like this again. Nothing that I was looking for. The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the
+
+[16:40] HeritageRadio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[16:49] restorateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Did you guys steal that music from, like, the Hayden Planetariums, like, universe movie that they play right when you show up? It sounds like it, maybe like Wizard of Oz on Loop or something too. I'm not sure Yes, it's crazy. I think that's what it is, though. like, you know, you go and they're like, there are 1000000000s of stars. and it's like, really? Can you play me a little bit of that weedly didly music? I want some of that, some of that like universe. You know what I'm saying? Like the spinning stars and stuff? Maybe we can like fade that in with fish is fish is vodka. Don't mess don't mess with the fish's fish song. All right, don't be messing with this song. The, you know, the, oh, by the way, we haven't talked about that, right? You want to talk about the song that got sent in, the fishes, fish is vodka? Yes, it's, you know, because we couldn't play vicious, vicious vodka. We have a sound alike song, and so does the title. And it was composed by someone on
+
+[17:55] Twitter. Jack, do you remember the name of the person? Jack doesn't remember. guys are bad people. Yeah, we no credit. But next time. You guys are horrible people. Yes, yes. we'll get to. We'll do another commercial break, come back with a full thank you. Anyway, uh, so we got one in from at Clefts. Cooking issues, any ideas on time and temperature for cooking cod sperm sacks, low temp. You got to love a question like that. Cod sperm sacks at low temp. Any way to prevent coagulation of dairy. 2nd question, any way to prevent coagulation of dairy in a high acid system. So here's the thing. cod sperm, I would never say cod sperm, when you're actually going to serve it to someone, I mean, the term that we would use in food circles would be
+
+[18:36] milk, like Uncle Milty, Milt, cod Milt. I have not myself cooked cod milk. I've seen it many times. I think I've had it. You've had the cod milk, right, sauce? Did you enjoy the cod milk? Yeah? You had it, you had it, Japanese style? That, yeah. And then with you at, what's that place in San Francisco? Where? your friend. Which friend? He does a lot of Chris Costantino? We had milk there? All right. So I guess, yeah. Anyway, it's got like a texture similar to like a brains or something like that. But I have no idea how to cook it, how to cook it low temp. I mean it's got such a delicate structure that I would worry about vacuuming it. I would guess that it coagulates somewhere in the range of where an egg white would coagulate, so you'd probably want to cook it
+
+[19:22] at like, I don't know, 62, something like that, Celsius, but I don't know, because you're supposed to steam it or fry it or something like that. It's supposed to be a delicate kind of puffy puffy texture. What do you think, pipes? I think that's a good, what do you do? you ever cook the cod milk? No. I actually wasn't listening. No, it's like, it's like, what the hell? Well, well, Piper, it's because Piper's not trying to buy shoes on Zappos, like somebody else we know who shall remain. He's not on Facebook. He just clicked. He's not on Facebook, Nostal. He's looking up oil preliminariation for me. Anyway. So no, I do not have a good time or temperature on it, but I would assume
+
+[20:00] it would be somewhere in that range like 62. I've never cooked. I've never really done even low temp on my favorite kind of, you know, fish. fish, gonad part, which is row. I've never done any really low temperature cooking on that, although I should because I love Shadrow. one of my favorite things to cook. You don't like the shadow, dude. Why do you not like the shadow? Something about, isn't it, they're like really grainy? Well, if you well, if you overcook it, it's grainy, yeah. I had it when it was really grainy. Who cooked it for? In a restaurant? No. I'm not gonna call. No? no? All right. anyway. But the 2nd one, it just so happens at Cliffs, that we have
+
+[20:37] here Piper, who his family is involved with CP Kelko, right? We have the man to tell you how to prevent the coagulation of high acid dairy systems. Piper with some pectin. Give me some pepin stabilization knowledge. Drop it on me. Let's see. Protein protection, through what? Pectin. Oh, my God, Piper. Killing me. All right, look. The question was, Piper, Snap back. The question was, uh, how to do high acid dairy systems without coagulation. And the answer, I gave it to you, just describe which pectins is you like pectin to preserve high acid dairy systems. Pectin and... CMC. That's carboxy methyl cellulose for all you who don't know what the hell CMC is. I think it's a brand of truck. So he's using car boxing, right? Is that true? Right? Karbosky muscle cellulose. who makes that stuff? Actually, CP Coco makes it. Yeah. All right. Can you buy that from modernist pantry? I think you can. From a Piper puts CMC in every freaking thing. Like, 1st of all, he's his body doesn't do so well with the gluten. So he, he, you know, He's it for film forming and gluten-free bread. And also viscosity without having to deal with yield point, like Xanthe. Yeah, you point for those of you that have no idea what the hell we're talking about. You'll point. So if you take xanthan gum, it acts a little bit like a fluid gel, you sit it on a surface, you tilt it and it acts like a gel until you put a certain amount of shear on it, at which point it automatically thins and turns to a liquid.
+
+[22:15] That's called a yield point. So same with a yield point acts like that as opposed to something that is merely thick, but will flow under all circumstances. So, too easy real world examples, uh, that don't involve
+
+[22:26] hydrocoloids that you can think of are like maple syrup, no matter how cold it is, it just
+
+[22:32] flows, but slowly. It doesn't have a yield point. Whereas ketchup, right? Ketchup does not flow until stuff until shear is applied to it and has a yield and it breaks. So that's that's what a yield point. So Piper's looking to strengthen something in a system without having a yield point. He's using CMC and pectin, but you use a specific pectin, don't you? There are a couple different types of pect that you can use. I like, let's see. Beta Pectin, which is from Beats. What's the beta? the beta refer to for those that are out there in the in the pectin land? I don't even know that. You know what? Like, Piper worked at CP Kilco's, like, like, what were you, research? in the research labs? like busting stuff out? Yeah. And so Piper will put Pectin in just about any damn thing and CMC in just about any damn thing. So give them just give them a recipe. Since you're not going to tell them, just give them a freaking recipe. It's complicated. Alright. High concentration solution of beta pectin,
+
+[23:38] like maybe 5% is mixed with, you know,
+
+[23:44] the solution that you want to acidify. And then it's continually mix for like an hour or so and then you slowly add your acid. Um, it depends. I mean, there's so many specifics. So you're saying it's incredibly difficult. It's incredible, without an accurate pH meter, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna just try and pour
+
+[24:03] juice and like lemon juice into it. What's he trying to make? Well, I'm assuming he wants to do like, you know, Calpico water or something like that, or like some sort of like acidified dairy beverage. I'm assuming that's where he's trying to do I would say make one high concentration solution of beta pectant or an HM pectant, and then add it in increments of like one% total weight with the with the dairy, and then slowly acidify, and you'll see that the flaculation point is going to
+
+[24:38] decrease PH. From PHS. All right. So, Clef, there you have it. I wouldn't, that's not so much a recipe you can take to the bank, but Piper will work on. get it out to you. By the way, I was looking up while Piper was talking, I was looking up Aaron's last name who made the song. His last name is Robertson. So Aaron Robertson. Thank you for the fish's fish, uh, is vodka song. Whoa, now. Abrupt end on the clap, guys. Jesus. Killing me. Okay, now, another interesting thing was brought up a couple weeks ago. I didn't answer was an oil preliminarization technique that's made in Japan. Another thing from Japan called Katamero Tempuru, which I guess tempuru means like kind of like tempura, right? Tempura, tempudu? I don't know how to speak Japanese. Anyway, Kaganat tempura is a powder that you, and I saw the video of it on the, on the internet. Amazing, what they want to do is, is you ever have like a liquid fat and you want to dispose of it and throw it in your trash, you can't because it's a
+
+[25:37] liquid. So what you do is you add this powder to it, and it instantly polymerizes, turns to a solid, which you then scrape out of the
+
+[25:45] pan, and you can throw in your regular waste trash. Now, um, that's crazy. I don't know how the hell it works. It says it's some sort of algel thing, some sort of algel seaweed, uh, like nonsense, but I was, like, nowhere was they able to find what's actually in it. What is actually doing it? And it's clearly some sort of, I mean, it's probably clearly,
+
+[26:06] not clearly, I guess, some sort of polymerization where the oil is being linked. I doubt they're like instantly hydrogenating it because I don't know of any way to do that because it's not a system where they're adding
+
+[26:17] heat. They're literally just adding a powder to the oil and it's turning to a solid, which is nutty. I don't know how the hell it works. Someone out there, please, if you know what this reaction is, and what's causing it. Because remember, there's ways to do it in like that I found that are very, very non-food grade. But the question is how do you do it in a food grade way, such that you're not doing something crazy to your pen? Like, are they somehow some sort of instance uponification reaction where they're turning into a soap? I have no idea. Someone please tell me. The only way I know how to solidify a fat like that, hardcore solidify it is to add large amounts, like upwards of 10% by weight of mono and diglycerides, when that, like, so you could take a liquid fat, add 10% mono and diglycerides to it, uh, and, you know, heat it a little bit, and then
+
+[26:59] when it cools, it will thicken and turn to a, you know, a solid, and you can scrape it out. Um, and that's, that's the only way that, you know, that I've done it, uh, you know, in the kitchen before, but I don't, I don't really, I don't know. Anyway, so we're looking that up. Uh, and we'll take a 2nd break. We'll come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[27:35] You're listening to Weaving by Dead Stars on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Have we lost our control? I don't know what I should do. Wake me up, when you know And I hope that we get you now.
+
+[28:08] Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us.
+
+[28:20] To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[28:36] And we're back. Okay, back on the bread. I was thinking about this for a second. I read an interesting couple of interesting articles. They don't actually relate to the question about oven spring, but I thought they were kind of interesting. One is that these nut jobs are trying to figure out a way to determine how their bread is going to react to
+
+[29:04] baking, and instead of doing the obvious thing for us, which would be to bake it. They put it in a vacuum chamber. And these guys, by putting in a vacuum chamber, they expand all the air cells that
+
+[29:16] are, the air bubbles that are already in the dough. And they claim that at any point in the bread making process after the initial kind of mixing and the air incorporation has happened, that they can get good correlations to the final bake
+
+[29:30] volume just by putting the sucker in a vacuum and seeing how high it can, it can raise up. There's another interesting picture on vacuum mixing in the in the bread science book that I told you about that's available in the truck that's online, where she reproduces a picture of a bread that was mixed under a vacuum.
+
+[29:48] It had the craziest pore structure. It was considered a bad pore structure, but I thought very interesting. Like now, I'm spending all morning thinking about, uh, like, you know, various, uh, you know, ways to put vacuums on bread. But the other really interesting thing is, uh, is an article I read about the temperatures at which the, uh, temperatures at which the bread, and this relates back to oven spring, is setting. And so the point is, is that the protein structure in a good bread, uh, in a good well-made dough. The protein structure is going to hold the gas bubble integrity up to a point of about 60 degrees Celsius, where a crappy bread dough is going to hold its structure up to a point of about 50 degrees Celsius.
+
+[30:32] And so, and the key difference there is that that's right around the temperature that the star gelatinization is taking place. So the protein is really only there to hold the structure of the
+
+[30:42] bread while you're waiting for the starch to gelatinize and set. And that's why, you know, and I think we've discussed about it a couple times in the past. You know, when you're working on a gluten-free bread, like a lot of the problem is just getting it to react properly to the initial
+
+[31:01] bakeout. So it's the initial bakeout of it. It's hard because you're getting the proteins. They have to hold there until the interior of the bread gets up to, you know, 50 or 60. And that's, you know, that's why when we're doing experiments, we'll experiment with, you know, things that have weird kind of pre-gelling characteristics like, like you'll add something to hold structure like a Xanthan or like a CMC, and then you'll add something to
+
+[31:24] actually gel in that mid-range temperature where those other things are going to start to fail, like a
+
+[31:30] methocellulose or some other sort of heat gelling property. Because the idea is, is that it's not that the protein is important. I don't think it's important, but it's not, you know, majorly important to the final texture of the bread. I think the major, the major impact from the final temperature on the bread is going to be the starches and how they gelatinize. However, the major impact to the formation of that final structure is going to be how the protein
+
+[31:55] works. And so that's the really dig, diggity, dig that you get when you're trying to formulate a bread without protein, without without gluten proteins. When you say that's... Yeah. Now Piper's learned to do the noastasia and just say, just say yes. Okay. Joshua wrote in last week. didn't get to get to it on beer. I hope this is still the correct email and it is, even though we didn't answer it last week. Obviously, Nastasia got the email. A few questions. I'm an all grain brewer because I didn't answer this last week. Did I, Stas? I'm an all grain brewer and I have access to grains, hops, good brewing equipment, word, et cetera,
+
+[32:31] which, like, for some reason, I don't know. I call it ward, but I was told that brewers call it ward. Okay. No, you don't care. You don't do a crap. Okay. Are there some interesting things I can do with these base ingredients beyond beer or the equipment used for
+
+[32:44] it beyond low temperature cooking? Um, That's interesting. I love, uh, I've been trying to use mashing techniques and, um, use the, the, the amylace that, so, when you're, when you're doing mashing, when you're doing an all grain
+
+[33:00] mash, What you're using barley, typically malted barley, when you're malting the barley, you're just allowing a little bit of the grain to
+
+[33:09] grow. You're allowing it to germinate a little bit, and then you're stopping that, well, the enzymes are in there that will convert the starch in the barley, eventually convert the starch into sugar so that the growing embryo can use them, you kill
+
+[33:23] that such that the enzymes haven't been destroyed, but that the embryo isn't using all of that stuff. It isn't wasting any of the stars because you want to convert all that starch using the enzymes to sugar. So, uh, I've been, uh, not with much success, but trying to experiment using, um, using the enzymes in that to add other starches to do cooking related uh, things.
+
+[33:45] So, uh, to break down, um, potatoes, for instance, or break down even further sweet potatoes using a mixture of uh, amylases
+
+[33:54] from from, from grains. But I haven't had any sort of luck. You know, that I haven't had any sort of luck that makes me want to think that that's what I want to do for the next, you know,
+
+[34:03] you know, 10 years. I mean, much more luck with, um, not with grain-based, uh, ferments doing interesting thing, but, uh, Harold McGee has been turning me on to some really interesting, uh, rice-based fermentations, not Japanese, not coji-based, but, you know, other
+
+[34:18] weird, uh, symbiotic, uh, like mixtures of bacteria and uh, fungal and uh, yeast
+
+[34:24] elements. And I forget the name of it is, but he's had these weird little, they're called yeast balls that are from China that McGee kind of turned me
+
+[34:30] onto that make this amazing fermented rice gruel that tastes unlike anything ever. So I've had more luck using that in culinary in culinary applications, but I haven't really had done much with beer. Now, malt is delicious, and malt, I think, especially even
+
+[34:45] the even the dried stuff that you can buy, or the extract, is an underused
+
+[34:49] ingredient, from a culinary standpoint, is delicious, you know, malted mashed
+
+[34:54] potatoes. You know, not malt, like, you know, baker's malt or like malt, like you make milkshakes with, but like large amounts of, you know, brewers, malt, but
+
+[35:02] malt powder, you know, DME, dry malt extract, which you don't use because you're all grain.
+
+[35:07] Um, is an awesome uh, addition, uh, flavoring addition to to many things that I use. Two. I have a fair bit of beer. What are some interesting things I can do to play with beer for sweet or savory applications? I've been thinking about phones with methocell F50 and I've used it in cheese preparations with sodium citrate. Um, but Methocell F 50 beer applications are kind of one of the classic applications uh, of Methocell F 50. I mean, I think one of the in fact, the 1st application I saw, Methocell F 50 is a hydrocolloid derived from cellulose, that has very good whipping properties, and it's used mainly by chefs to make very dense, like kind of shaving, creamy, consistency foams because it makes a very fine celled foam as opposed to something almost akin to an egg white, as opposed to kind of the light, airy foams that are produced by things like, um,
+
+[35:55] uh, by things like Lesset then. You know, Versa Whip is another filming agent, but I tend to think that Methacell
+
+[36:02] F 50 makes kind of a finer kind of more egg whitey foam than Versa Whip usually does, although Versa Whip is also good for certain applications.
+
+[36:09] Anyway, uh, methal cell F 50 also does something versus whip can't do, which is if you make a, uh, if you make a, like a, like a whipped egg white texture thing with methyl cell at 50, a foam, you can pipe it uh, onto a trape, throw it a dehydrator at 135 Fahrenheit for a couple of hours, then turn it down to hold it, and it'll make a crunchy,
+
+[36:28] like a crunchy meringue, uh, crispy thing with no protein in it. amazing. Now, the 1st application I saw of it, what methasola 50 was, in fact, beer. It was Sam Mason, uh, who, I don't know when his ice cream company's starting up again. you know? anyone know? anyone, anyone? It's going to be delicious. I'm sure. Anyway, was he was doing back at WD 50 when he was a pastry chef at
+
+[36:48] WD 50, was making Guinness foam with Methosel F50. And as I remember, I tasted it and my feelings was it was delicious. Obviously, cooking with beer is good. I've been using it a lot in cocktail preparations. Of course that's nothing new. So I guess I don't have anything really new. I like this cheese application with sodium citrate. So I'm assuming you're making like processed cheese with beer. I mean, we'd have to add some sort of, you'd have to add some sort of like casing, extra casing to it. You buy. I did some work with a product called rennet casing, rennet casing is casing that's been produced from the process, like
+
+[37:26] you actually rented it, and then you break it down, powder it, and you can reuse that to make cheese analogs.
+
+[37:31] And so I've done some initial experiments with rent casing, but I'm sure that as long as you get the pH right with the with the
+
+[37:38] beer, that you can make a pretty interesting kind of beer cheese.
+
+[37:42] In other words, I would be most interested in something not that had the flavor of cheese, but had the meltability of cheese, but tasted like beer. And I think that would be eminently possible with beer, rennet casing and the right emulsifying salt. So I wouldn't just use citrate. You use a... Dave, you have a call. And let's keep it to one question. It's not a personal. Wait, you're telling me it's not a personal fence on the lady who's buying shoes on the internet? All right, call her. on the air. You're not buying shoes and collar. You have one. Call her your collar. on the air. Hi, uh, Dave and Nastasia and friends. This is Brian in San Francisco. Excuse me, I have a cold. Um, but uh, 2 questions. First is, um, Lesson. Uh, what's, I, I found my national food store, the soy lesson, which looks kind of, like, bee pollen. It's the, what kind of crumbles. And then, but I've seen some recipes that want liquids. So what's the difference? And I guess the 1st they call soy lust, that's the thing. Yeah, almost all the lesser thing that you buy in, uh, in, is from
+
+[38:46] soy, and it's not that that's the only lesser thing it's out there. It's just a byproduct of manufacturing all the other soy products. They have soy less of them. I've never used liquid lesson. you ever use liquid piper? Did you like it? I mean, it's like, I hate the granules. Well, the granules are the granules are obviously the worst. The powder is pretty good. You can buy a powdered one, and the problem with the granules is, 1st of all, I think they tend to accentuate the off-flavor that you can get from less thin, if you use it too much, and
+
+[39:15] also they're hard to get. What? What do you say? You still there? They're hard to get into the, uh, they're hard to get into solutions sometimes, the granules, and the, the, whereas the powder is like, you know, easier, but the liquid, I mean, assuming if you can buy the liquid, if you can tolerate having extra, extra, you know, liquid, I'm sure it's not,
+
+[39:35] sure it's oil based, right? But if you could have it, you know, because less than would rather be in oil than in water. Whenever you're talking about an emulsifier, you have to look at what's called the hydrophobic, lip, the hydrophilic lipophilic
+
+[39:48] balance, where you're looking at, is it an oil loving emulsifier? Is it a water loving emulsifier? And the big mistake most people make with less than is, although it's kind of somewhere near the middle, it's not extreme on either side, less than is an
+
+[40:00] oil loving emulsifier. So if it's coming as a liquid, it's almost certainly coming in an oil-based liquid. Now, um, I, if I've never used liquid lesson then, but I would guess it's a lot easier to use because the, the, the pain in the butt about less than
+
+[40:15] it's, uh, in the liquid property, right? When you agree? Yes. I don't know. I think we lost the color because we have some sort of like weird feedback loop going on here. But back to cheese for one second. The book that you guys want to get. And I think I've mentioned it on the show here before, is processed cheese and analogs by Adnan Tamimi.
+
+[40:36] And that's going to have all the recipes you need. You can look at a good bunch of it on Google books and see what's going on. Finally, on the way out, we have a question. Well, okay, one more thing on cheese. Can sodium hexametaphosphate be used as a replacement for sodium citrates and recipes as well as for sequestering calcium? If yes, is there a standard scaling amount for the amount used? I'm thinking specifically about modernist mac and cheese recipe. Sodium hexametaposphate is not a single thing. It's a group of polyphosphate salts, and it's a monster at sequestrian calcium. It's not a straight replacement for sodium citrate because they have kind of different functions in a mac and cheese. They function, they function differently. Usually when you're making a cheese-based thing. You need to add not just one emulsifying salt, but 2 or
+
+[41:24] three. And the function you need depends a lot on the pH of your system. So certain of the salts are more basic than others. And so you need to add them to get your pH in the right level. And also they tend to have different textures, depending on which one you use. And unfortunately, it's not a straightforward thing. It's kind of a little bit of a dark art. And so it requires a lot of experimentation. A lot of it is still just people like testing recipes and keeping logbooks of what they do. But sodium hexometaposphate and sodium citrate together, you should be able to get a lot of things under your
+
+[41:57] belt, having those 2 ingredients on hand when you're doing cheeses. Finally, can I explain my home seltzer system? Yes, here's what you do to make the, if you have the money and the time and, uh, and, but now, but you don't want to spend money or time later. What you do is you get an under the counter ice machine. And then you drill a hole in the side of the undercounter ice machine. This is what I kind of have at home. What I have at home is a slightly more ghetto version of this. But you take an ice machine, you drill holes in it, right? You buy a cold plate, go to Mark Powers. They're in Goodersville, Alabama, cheapest, get a cold plate, 2 circuits. One circuit of a cold plate is not enough to get your cells are cold enough for
+
+[42:34] what you want to do here, right? So what a cold plate is, is it's a big stainless steel coil that's embedded in an aluminum block and you keep that underneath ice, right? Now, one chain of a cold chain, not going to drop the temperature enough. So what you do is you put the in. Oh, oh, I forgot. You have to buy a carbonator. A carbonator is a giant tank that holds water at room temperature with a pump. The same kind of pump. It's a rotary vein pump made by Procon, usually. And it's the same pump they use an espresso machine, and that's hooked up to your water supply. So you get, you put your water supply straight out of your sink in through a filter. You put that goes through a filter. Once it goes through the filter, it gets hooked onto the pump on your carbonator, right? You then get a £20 CO2 tank. You want to run it about 95, 96, 98 PSI, someone in
+
+[43:16] there, into the tank. Now, your water mains don't have enough pressure to inject water into a system that has that high
+
+[43:22] of that high of a pressure. So the pro con pump, overcomes that pressure and shoots the water, sprays it into the tank, that spring makes such a fine surface area that the water is instantly carbonated.
+
+[43:35] Now, you need to have it at 98 to 90 to 100 PSI because you're doing it at room temperatures. That's under extreme pressure. It comes out of that, goes through 2 circuits of your cold plate, right? Two circuits of it, and it's underneath your ice machine. So now you have constant ice supply and you have constant cold seltzer. When it comes out, the next biggest mistake people make is they use a crappy picnic
+
+[43:57] tap, like you would use for beer, they're worthless, useless. You need to get what's called a Becker squeeze valve. You can also get Becker, B-E-E-C-K, B-E-C-K-E-R. Becker makes the best cellser valves. No question, because it has a giant compensator in the back of it that allows you to make the transition from the high-pressure
+
+[44:15] region, where the seltzer is, to the low-pressure atmospheric region, and they're just, they're, they're free. freaking awesome. That's the system. So that's the system I have at 54 Eldridge. At home, the problem was I couldn't fit an undercounter ice machine in where I wanted to put it because it would have required too much ventilation problem.
+
+[44:33] I couldn't do it. Plus with all the tubes coming down from my espresso machine because my espresso and my seltzer rig are together right where all my filtered water crap is.
+
+[44:40] So I have to go through the awful, well, it's not awful. I built an insulated box like out of wood and spray foam and blue and blue foam with a condensation pump, right? You need a condensation pump with a condensation pump. And so now my freezer, which is across the aisle in my kitchen, I pull the ice out of it every day from the ice maker, dump it into my insulated box into the cold plate, and then that's how I get my cold
+
+[45:04] seltzer. And so that's my cold seltzer rig at home. It's awesome. The one with the automatic ice machine is even better. Now that I have a 7 year old that I can boss around. He actually does the ice. So it's just like having a manual ice, you know, a regular ice machine for me. But that's how I recommend doing it. It's the balls. I never run out of cell, sir. Cooking issues.
+
+[45:34] You're listening to this program, I'm here to drag network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by 360 cookware, American made green manufactured cookware using vapor technology. For more information, visit 360cookware.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushway, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Cooking your shoes, go!
+
+[0:51] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. All right! Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday, live, the cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network and the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling all your questions live too, 718-497-2128. 784972128. Hey, Jack, what do you think by the intro? Sorry, it really got you jazzed up, huh? Yeah, yeah, you got to like that. What's awesome is how different the 2 songs are. We got to like swap them back and forth. Well, see, I'm thinking the 1st one, the kind of interpolation, we can use that on the break. It's kind of a jazzier calmer break song. think so? Yeah, I think so. Do you think I blasted out the view meter over there? Am I okay with the intro? You did. We went red. Went red. my next band. Who wrote that? Who wrote that? Who did that? That was Joel Gargano, right? Yes, it was. Yeah, all right. I probably mispronounced his name. I mispronounced everyone's name. I didn't have my own name, I'd mispronounce my name, right, Stas? You have two 1st names. I do have 21st names, although I tend to forget it since my last name's been my last name since as long as I can remember. Joined as usual with Nastasia Hammer Lopez, but also today her sister, the mini Hammer. She who just recently started attending the Yale University. My old alma honor. didn't take a mic. She said, I don't know. It's a sister thing. They're both sitting here on computers, crazy, crazy. And Jack and Joe in the engineering room. Hey, how do you doing? Call your questions live too. 718-4972128. 718-497, 2128. It is the Thanksgiving edition of cooking issues. And Stas, what are you doing for the Thanksgiving? A bunch of people coming over. Yeah, I don't think how many? I don't know. And what kind of wine are they going to bring? No, those people aren't coming. Saturday. Oh, right. So who's coming? Who's coming for the real Thanksgiving? A bunch of people that don't have families. Okay, here's the thing. If you want to get invited to Nastasia's apartment for the Thanksgiving or for any event, just guarantee that you will, A, be late. And B, if you are going to bring something, make sure that you get
+
+[2:52] nostalgia to buy all the ingredients and you cook it by messing up her kitchen and or bring any one. 5 liter $5 bottle of wine, right? Isn't that what it what it takes to qualify to be one of your friends? They've started bringing water. No way. like, I don't, like, pulling spring? Like, I don't feel like drinking tonight. So I brought water. then they drink. Who cares what they feel like doing? Exactly. I want drink. People, people. I assume that anyone listening to this program is a cook or likes to cook anyway and has some sense of what it means to be
+
+[3:24] A, A, a proper host. Like, for me, the worst thing that could ever happen to me, much worse than, like, accidentally, like having the building fall down and me being naked in front of a bunch of people, which is horrible, but, like, much worse than
+
+[3:37] that or worse even than, I don't know, I'm trying to imagine something worse. Uh, but like running out of food at a dinner party. I would rather die. They run out of food. I mean, it's like the worst thing. You know what I mean? I was raised at like then that just means that you're low quality. as a person. You know what I mean? not that they ate too much. is that you're puny and weak. Right? So anyways, and as a guest, showing up empty handed, the only thing worse than showing up empty handed would be showing up with a bottle of water. Like, if you don't want a drink, And you're going to someone's house. If you're not a drinker, fine. bring a dessert. Bring a cake. Cheese. Cheese. Yeah, if you're gluten intolerant, bring cheese. If you're lactose intolerant, bring a cake. If you're both, I have to think harder. You know what I mean? But bring something, for Christ's sakes, bring a gift. Bring jewelry, bring, bring a book. Bring anything. Show up empty handed, show up with water. Just say I don't want to come. If you don't want to go to the person's house, right? If it's too much of an investment to spend, you know, 15, 20 bucks a bottle, you know, on a bottle of good
+
+[4:32] wine, they just don't go. Just say no. Oh, I enjoy your company, but I want to just bring some water. Hey, crap on you. Then stay and clean the whole goddang thing. People. Where do people come from? What the hell is wrong with people? Happy Thanksgiving. Okay. We got this question in from Alex in Florida about bidders. Dear Jack, Dave and Nastasia 2. I've been curious recently about making my own bidders. At the bar, do you use a traditional Angostorus slash payshodes? or do you have a recipe of your own? I want something that would make a brandy old-fashioned, really pop, and maybe another interesting flavor while I'm concocting. What's the ideal proof to start with? And how long do you age for ideal flavor extraction? Extraction, and would an ISI whipper be able to speed up the process or just throw the flavors off balance? Thanks and help for your show, Alex from Florida. All right, well, look. No, we do not make our own bidders at the bar. We use Angosturas, and Pesho is just a little note to you. I detest pay shows bitters. I think they taste like cough syrup. I will tolerate them in traditional drinks like Sazerac, but I
+
+[5:34] just I'm not a fan. In fact, at the bar, we didn't serve it to customers because it's illegal, but I prefer to use actual
+
+[5:41] robotussin to mix with. Uh, so we were doing like, we were doing Sazerac's, uh, drinks that we were calling, uh, we call them robo sack, actually, was the thing. And then when we flamed it with the red hot poker, uh, in an homage to the Simpsons, we were calling
+
+[5:56] it, uh, the flaming Mozarak. But anyways. So now a huge pay shows fan. But if you want to make your own bidders. First of all, I recommend that to get a ballpark of what you're doing. Go out and purchase Bitters, a spirited history of a classic cure all with cocktails, recipes, and formulas by Brad Thomas Parsons. You
+
+[6:16] know, go ahead and read that. That's the book on Bitters. He actually comes to the bar. He's a nice guy. Uh, good book and, uh, you know, don't, I couldn't look at my copy because I have it at the bar for our bartenders to use the
+
+[6:27] reference. I couldn't look at my copy this morning, but go take a look at that one. Most of his recipes are a little bit low on proof. Angustura, when it's finished, starts at 45. I mean, is it 45% alcohol by volume, if that gives you kind of a ballpark. The higher alcohol, anything that you do, when you're making a bitters is going to change it. It's not going to make it necessarily better or worse, but it's going to change it. So, um, Brad usually does a two-part extraction, right? Where he'll do an initial extraction into pure ethanol, uh, and then, not pure, sorry, sorry, into like liquor, like a 100, 100, 100, 101, some
+
+[7:03] medium-proof bourbon, or spirit. Then he will take the solids out of it, then resteep those solids in water at a high temperature
+
+[7:11] boiling so he'll do a room temperature infusion into liquor for a week, 2 weeks, a couple days, whatever. depends on the product, then take the solids out, boil them with water, reduce that, add that back to the
+
+[7:22] alcohols to do a two-part infusion. If you do ISI, it's going to change it. Some people on the internet use very high proof alcohol and extract for less amount of
+
+[7:30] time, and none of these things is going to make anything better or worse. If you're using an ISI bottle, which is a technique I developed a while ago for infusing very rapidly. That's going to change the infusion. What it's going to do is anytime you do a rapid infusion technique at low temperature like ISI or any form of pressure, it's going to typically extract volatile notes more than it's going to extract the deeper, baser, more bitter notes.
+
+[7:52] So if you're going to do a coffee infusion with ISI rapidly, it's going to extract more of the coffee aroma and less of the inherent bitterness. Very long-term extractions and high-proof ethanol are going to extract a lot of the stuff, including all of the bitters. So it all depends on how you want to extract it, which flavors you want to pull out. You know, if you extracted a lower proof, the flavor balance will be different if you extract for the same amount of time at a higher proof or longer. is shorter at a higher proof. So the short answer is there's no answer. One thing I will say is a lot of people where they really mess up is they change the amount of
+
+[8:24] liquor that they use to the product or they use low quality or impotent products. So if you're sourcing a really crappy gentian, for example, or
+
+[8:34] really crappy or old spice, you're never going to get the same amount of flavor, even if you ramp up the quantity, then you would if you did, if you got a higher quality
+
+[8:43] product or a fresher product. Similarly, if you were to just say, listen, I want to do it faster, so I'm going to add twice as much,
+
+[8:50] gentian, let's say, to something, or if you're doing, I don't know, gin or something, or a root or something. add twice as much, right? That doesn't make it twice as strong or the same amount of strength in half the time.
+
+[9:00] It changes the flavor. But again, it doesn't make it any better or any worse. But as a ballpark for a more traditional bitters kind of a flavor, go look at uh, go look at that book, uh, Bitters. And then if you want to try something that's maybe less on the deep notes, but has a lot
+
+[9:14] of more of the aromatic notes, and you want to do something quickly, try doing the ISI infusion.
+
+[9:18] When you're starting, do individual infusions of the flavors to see how they mix so that you can mix them, then see whether or not if you combine them at the same time, you get the same extraction,
+
+[9:27] a similar extraction, because you probably won't. Adding different spices, it's going to change the overall concentration relative to the liquid, the alcohol
+
+[9:33] present, it might change the flavors and the way they melt. It's a very complicated kind of a thing. And so you have to practice, but once, but make sure, when you're doing it, that you keep extremely accurate, copious records of exactly what you did so that you can reproduce
+
+[9:46] it, the worst thing in the world is to come up with something that's delicious and then you can't reproduce it. I hate that. Hate it. Absolutely hate it. Well, I had one more note, but I forget what it is. I don't know. Couldn't have been. I mean it probably was extremely important. It was probably the most important thing that I was going to say. Like the rest of it's just fluff compared to the one thing I was about to say, but it's gone. It's out of my head. It's history. Sorry about that. Anyway. Okay. Um, moving on. Red writes in. Cooking low temperature pork shanks. have been giving me some issues. I've done them twice now with the same results. Funk, not funk in a good way. See, funk, like a long, long time ago, funk just meant kind of like smelly, like behind smelly, smelly stuff, like funk. That a nasty funk. and then funk became kind of a good thing, kind of like James Brown funk. And now I think funk is bad to being back to being a bad thing. At least when it's cooking, funk is bad, right? You pro funk or anti-funk. Anti-anti. Yeah, okay. Uh, funk. The 1st time, although there's a town in Nebraska called Funk. Did you know that? Funk, Nebraska, there's university, the University of Funk. Can you imagine? Yeah, I mean, like, I don't understand why everyone in the world, if I had known about it when I was applying to school. I was saying crap on Yale. I be going to the University of Funk. Uh, but anyway, uh, the 1st time, uh, my funky, my, my funky shanks, uh, were cooked with an Asian style marinade, no dip at 85 degrees, uh, no dip at 85 degrees Celsius, meaning dipping them 1st to 85 degrees Celsius to
+
+[11:03] kilo bacteria on the outside. So there's no dip. And they went into a water bath at 60 degrees Celsius for approximately 48 hours. The 2nd time was with no marinade and a 3 minute dip at 85 degrees Celsius into a bath at 60 degrees Celsius for about 48 hours.
+
+[11:17] All the pork shanks were cooked with the full skin on. Note, interesting though. Red changed 2 different variables, right? Changed the marinade and the dip. So what we don't have is we don't have marinade plus dip, whether or not that equals funk, right? Okay. Anyway, all the pork shanks, we also, I don't know for, for instance, whether or not both had the exact same kind of
+
+[11:39] funk, because there's various kinds of funk. There's kind of bacterial funk, which usually gives kind of a cheesy, almost
+
+[11:46] sauerkraut, or blue cheese, or definite off note that's usually caused by lactobacillos that are growing in your
+
+[11:51] bag, either due to not heating it up fast enough, having some contamination. Well, that's what it's due to. having some contamination, not heating it up fast enough to kill them before they can produce their nasty aromas. But secondly, certain meats can have a certain kind of function. For instance, dry age meats have a certain kind of funk. And also, if you've ever made, if any of you ever, out there have ever made a pure pork stock. Styles, you ever made a pure pork stock, like without a lot of browning flavors in it, without a lot of everything,
+
+[12:14] like, if you just like cooks like straight, like pork with like no skimming of the stock beforehand, all the bones, sometimes you get like that weird kind of, I don't know how to describe
+
+[12:24] it. porky aroma. Anyone in the studio know what the heck I'm talking about? Yeah, I've had enough pork. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about? pork uncovered by any sort of my yard flavor, and also kind of without any flashing off of the volatiles and kind of no
+
+[12:36] removing, can have this kind of like porky, skinny, kind of like, you know, when you when you make a very strong gelatin solution, you get some of that kind of like weird that aroma. So I don't know whether that's what you're describing as funk, in which case that one, that's a separate issue. we're going to assume on bacteria is what we're dealing with. Anyway, all the pork shanks were cooked with a full skin on. My question is, what is causing the funk? I would have thought that the 85 degree C, which is very high in Fahrenheit land for your Fahrenheit folk. Dip for 3 minutes would have taken care of any surface issues. Do I need to skin them? and is the temperature just too low? I've also cooked some at 85 degrees Celsius for 12 hours with no issues, except being overcooked for my taste. Think of trying 70 to 5 degrees C for approximately 12 hours the next time. I've had great success with lamb shanks at 62 degrees for 48 hours. So I'd appreciate any insights you might have on this. PS, my wife and I will be taking trekking off to the European Union a week after
+
+[13:27] Thanksgiving and we'll be in New York on the 28th and 29th before we leave. Our plans are to stop by and have lunch at Zambar, and then at Booker and Dax for lunch and cocktails. We also have reservations for WD 50 that evening. Red. Listen, red. Booker and Dax does not open till 6. Does not open till six. I'm sure Wiley will let you come get a cocktail at Booker and Dax at 6 before you go off to
+
+[13:51] WD 50 or after you go to WD 50, come by Booker and Dax National Cocktails. But we don't open the bar until six. I will also say this, not to shortchange your ability to come to my bar and have drinks, but
+
+[14:04] WD 50 also has an extremely interesting bar program, and I really am a big fan of their
+
+[14:09] cocktails, and it is my feeling that in general, restaurants don't get enough play for their bar programs. For some reason, cocktail writers tend to overlook restaurants when they look at their cocktails, when they look at interesting cocktails, they tend to focus solely on standalone bars. And it's stupid. It's dumb because restaurants have what's interesting about restaurants is they typically have a large back of house
+
+[14:32] system and often in really good restaurants. Chefs and bartenders will talk to each other and communicate. And the bartender will have access to some interesting ingredients from the back of the house that they wouldn't ordinarily have at a normal bar. So check out the cocktails when you're at the WD 15. Okay, back to your funky question. Um, I don't know. It would be interesting to see if you did the marinade because as you'll see later if I get to it. Some marinades have antibacterial effects. I'm assuming that's what's causing it is not just kind of the natural inherent porkiness that you're talking about. I'm assuming what's causing it is a bacteria. And the only explanation I could have is that your bags got crowded, and that even with the C, with the high C dip, you
+
+[15:10] may be, I C. You know what I mean? High temperature dip, uh, that there were parts of the bag that got bacterially contaminated, whether it was from getting stabbed with a knife, whether it was from bags being packed closely
+
+[15:20] together, or if you had multiple portions with sauce in them, inside of a single bag, and then that part couldn't be penetrated by the
+
+[15:27] by the hot water when you were doing your dip. In other words, one of those things must be the cause because that's the only time I've ever had funkiness happen. And at 60 degrees Celsius, you should not have any sort of funkiness. Now, definitely 75 degrees C. There's a bacterial problem, the penetration is going to be fast enough to kill anything and stop the, stop it from going, going south on you. But I would think that 60 degree Celsius is also hot enough to have that happen, unless they're really tightly packed, in which case I would really make sure that your packs are very, very far separated in your bath to make sure that you're getting adequate circulation around
+
+[15:59] it, because usually it's lack of circulation in the bath, that's the problem or a very large, large, large thing, that's the problem.
+
+[16:05] On this, by the way, I have to say a little bit how I'm going to cook my turkey this year. How are you cooking your turkey stars? I don't know yet. It's like, what does your mom do just throws it in an oven at like one degree? What's the technique from your at your house? She wakes up at 6, puts the turkey in for 8 hours. Yeah. Turkey jerky? How is it? How's your mom's turkey? How was the turkey nutty? Don worry, you're not gonna listen. How is it? It's all right. That's the that's the thing. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Will you slather that sucker in gravy if it happens, right? Right? Is that what goes on? Jack, Jack and Joe, how about you guys still over there? What are your turkeys like? My mom's process is pretty similar to Nastasius. Yeah? So good for sandwiches, but not so good on day one? Yeah, lots of gravy is necessary. Yeah? Yeah. All right. Well, listen. Normally, for the past several years, I think what, 3 years we've been doing it, Stas, I've been doing my, like, bionic turkey, where you completely bone a turkey inside out. And then you make like an aluminum hollow, pseudoskeleton, and then you pump hot oil and butter through the pseudoskeleton after you've brined it, that you puff the turkey up with an artificial aluminum foil kind of carcass, and then you pump hot butter through it, cook it from the inside out, and then finish it in butter, and then do a flash fry on the
+
+[17:19] outside to crisp up the skin. And if I do say so myself, it's a delicious, delicious turkey. It's good. It a delicious bird. Hey, oh, but so here's the thing, though. Like, uh, my stepfather, uh, although the only things he likes are wine and fishing and cigars, and I guess
+
+[17:36] third, like my family, uh, the, uh, like the, or fourth, whatever it is. I think we make it the fourth, like there. And the dogs are maybe just below or just above us or below me. Anyway, uh, so he hates anything that's uh, a big uh, a big
+
+[17:51] Mishi gosh. You know what I mean? He's like or a big jambota, as he says. So, you know, I fried my 1st turkey at my mom's house and like a little oil spilled on the lawn and killed a patch of grass, which no one has walked on in 22 years. And yet I heard about it. Dave, you destroyed the lawn. he went to his bedroom, right? Oh, he went to his bedroom and fell asleep. I ruined all of Thanksgiving. All of it. totally ruined. And then next year, my mom's like, hey, Dave, or 2 years because I alternate with my in-laws, right? Hey, Dave, fried the turkey again, but didn't tell Gerard, my stepfather. I was like, have you told Gerard that we're going to fry the turkey again? She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem, no problem. She doesn't talk like that. She's a world-renowned doctor. Anyway, so we, um, we, uh, I bring it. Gerard doesn't know we're going to fry the turkey. Also a world-renowned doctor. doesn't know we're going to fry the turkey again. Immediately, even before we start cooking, goes upstairs and falls asleep. I didn't want to kill the grass, so I did it on the flagstone, and I got oil on the flagstone, and so
+
+[18:44] he went out and it was one of those subfreezing Thanksgivings, you know, back before global warming, and he
+
+[18:49] starts, and he starts hosing down the deck, which starts freezing over to try and get the thing off. So 2 Thanksgivings ruined. So I'm not bringing the roboturkey. Last year, I brought the roboturkey. I cooked it at my house and brought a pre-cooked robo turkey to the to the house. But you know what? This one, I'm just going to say crap on it. I'm not going to do it. But here's my technique that I'm going to try to do that you guys can maybe do for the fast turkey. Ready for this? Ready for this? It's a variant on what I used to do back in the old days. The way I would cook a turkey is, I would bone the whole turkey out, completely bone it, like you would a
+
+[19:19] chicken, you can look at Jackie, Jackie Peps, that's French for Jacques Pepin. Jackie Peeves has a recipe for it and chicken. So I would roll the, you know, a bonet, stuff it with stuffing, tie it back together as a roll, and cook it really quickly. It cooks very, very quickly, right? Now, remember, you don't want to store stuffing in a turkey because you can get all sorts of bacterial contamination
+
+[19:37] that then isn't destroyed by heat. you know, you can make your family sick, all this, blah, blah, blah. Go look it up if you don't believe me. anyway, it's a bad idea, but here's what I'm going to do this year. I don't want to break the turkey. In other words, I'm not going to. I'm not going to bone it by cutting down the skin on the back and totally unfolding it like I normally
+
+[19:51] would. I'm going to inside out. I haven't told my mom this yet. I'm going to inside out boning it, bone it like I would for a roboturkey, right? Now here's the baller move. I'm gonna, my mom's stuffing is great. I don't even care what you think. Your mom, you think your mom's stuffing is good, or crap on your mom's stuffing. my mom and Mike's good stuff. everyone likes their own mom's stuff. You like your mom's stuffing stuff? Yeah, no matter what, no matter how overcooked your normal bird is, everyone loves their parents stuffing, right? Jack Joe. Yes. Okay. So I'm going to take my mom's stuffing. I am not even going to touch it. I going to let her make it. I'm going to sit there and be like, hey, Ma, I have more sage. As this, but by the way, parents don't use sage. They use poultry seasoning because they grew up in like the 50s and 60s, so they use that stuff just called poultry seasoning. anyway. So we're going to make the stuffing mix. I'm gonna heat that sucker up in the oven until it's done. mix it with a little bit of gravy. Done, right? Hot, hot like hell. Now, remember, I cook a lot, so my hand's completely impervious to heat. I was teaching at the French culinary the other day, and I was had someone infusing something in a bottle in a stove, and I was like, take it out of the, take it out of the
+
+[20:45] pan, and they're like, I can't, too hot. So I just reach over, picked it up, and held it for a couple minutes while I was talking to prove that they was a chump. Anyway, so like, it's just because I have no feeling. It's really a stupid trick, thanks, because you have no feeling in your hand. Anyway. So Mistachia says I have no feelings in general. She says I'm a monster and not in a good way. Not like when I say someone's a monster, it means they're good at something. Like when she says it's a monster, she means like they should be relegated to a pit with wailing and gnashing of
+
+[21:07] teeth if you read the Bible. Uh, so, um, anywho, uh, so I'm going to take this hot stuffing, and I'm going to, I'm going to take my inside out bird, and instead of using aluminum foil, I'm going to shove like boiling hot stuffing into the bird, so it starts cooking from the inside
+
+[21:21] out, so the stuffing's already above the cook temp. So the stuffing is actually going to act like a heater and then throw it into a hot oven. And that turkey's going to be done, lickety freaking split, and it's also going to be brined beforehand, so it's not going to be able to cook. That's gonna be my turkey this year. What do you think? Take pictures. Ah, take pictures. You know I won't. I'll try. I'll try. But anyway, so that's what I'm going to do for this year's bird. Oh, by the way, guys, Nastasia. Okay, so we had the CNN in for a while before the hurricane. And they're doing a half a half hour thing. expose. Expose. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, no, don't worry, folks. There's no exposing of of me. Thank Christ. And so anyway, so like the, uh, uh, it's a show called the next list, the next list. What am I? So someday I'll be the now list, but anyway, but like what are the next list? And, uh, yeah, so anyway, so it's going to be on uh, on the, what's it called? CNN, on Sunday, no, but on Sunday at 2 PM, Eastern Eastern Standard Time. Well, it's when the show is aired. What do you want out of me? So apparently they're airing promos, but please watch it and tell, and somehow, I don't know, please watch it. Yeah, email let us know let us know what you think. I'm super happy. I'm excited that they decided to do the... Yeah. Oh, Jack's on it? Mustasia managed somehow to be sick or cooking a chicken every time that they were like,
+
+[22:42] by the way, the little quotes marking might say, are you on camera? Because literally, like, you think Nastasia's face is buried in her computer normally. She like took and built like a cardboard. Do you know what dogs wear when they when they're when they bite themselves and you put the cone on their head to stop them from biting themselves? You guys know what I'm talking about? She like put one of those around her head and then like tape that to her computer monitor so that no one would ask her any questions. I think even though they were with us for hours and hours and hours, Like, not once did Nastasia peep on the dang thing, just so she could maintain the fiction amongst people
+
+[23:13] that, like, somehow I'm always yelling at her and she never gives backsass. Does Nastasia not give back sass? Oh, yeah, okay. Or at least she has her sister in mortal mortal terror, not saying anything. Okay. Joel Gargano wrote in, you know, from the famous song you just heard before. He says, I know I write it often. I know, but this is for good reason. This is regarding the song. A while back, Dave asked people to create an intro song for the show. This is my original song that I allow you to play without threatening you with legal
+
+[23:39] action. I recorded all of my basement next to the furnace. Punks. Enjoy. It's a hardcore punk version that is certainly a hoot. Hope to hear it next week or soon. It's only 40 seconds. The ending is a good lead in for days, calling your questions, 2 cooking issues. Uh, and that's how I used it. I thought I used it well, right? I will say, though. You should have said 7184. Yeah, Mr. Gargano did not remember the number. No, but Dave was supposed to say it. I did say it afterwards, but I thought it would be better to get the monster truck rally voice in. I don't know. You think I was wrong? Should I have not gone monster truck? No, I think you should have done Monster Truck. Phone number. Monster Truck. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Like that? All right. If this wins some sort of contest, the grand prize must be a personal phone call from Harold
+
+[24:23] McGee, reading verses of my choice from on food and cooking. Preferably the section on my yard reactions. That one gets me all jazzed up. I'm not kidding. I'm going to tell Harold that. I wish I'd heard that before because I just spoke to him a couple days ago. He's going to be in town, but not for a Tuesday. Someday we'll get it back in. record it and send it to this guy or re-record it. I'm going to send it to Harold and see whether he'll agree. Harold can call us anytime and we'll record that for him. And he can, yeah, but he wants a personal phone. We got to get him both on the phone. Reading sections on my art reaction from mine. I want to hear some tweets saying on my tweet, if you guys want to hear Harold McGee call in and just do an oral reading of sections of
+
+[24:58] On Food and Cooking regarding Myerad reactions as a favor to Joel. Mustache is giving the vegan face. I vote, yes. I do too. Francois writes in regarding the ongoing question of what the hell is in Catamaro Tempura, which is the stuff that they make in Japan to solidify your fry
+
+[25:14] oil? And he writes in, gives sense a picture of it that says, look at the label, the same as your beloved Ziploc
+
+[25:21] bag. And it's true, Francois, that, uh, uh, the
+
+[25:24] Katamara tempo, the, uh, tempura, the oil hardening crap from Japan, which supposedly is, in quotes, seaweed, whatever the hell that means.
+
+[25:30] I could build like a weapon of mass destruction out of seaweed if you broke it apart enough and did it well. Anyway, whatever. That's not my point. My point is that it is made by S.C. Johnson Wax, a family company. But, Francois, unfortunately, if you go to SC Johnson wax a family company, and you look up their list of ingredients, they only give you ingredients for their American stuff, and then they send you for any other ingredients to the Japanese website, which
+
+[25:52] is, guess what? Not in English. And then I try to do Google Translate and nowhere could I find any information regarding the ingredient list on Katamara tempura. So it is still a mystery. If anyone's listening in Japan, Please purchase a box of this, or look at the ingredients and tell me exactly what the hell's in it. Get someone from the S.C. Johnson wax.jp corporation to tell you what the hell this is so we can figure out what kind of reaction it is. Should we take a break? Yeah, but Coffee Mike just wrote us in and says the best turkey he ever made was in 3
+
+[26:20] parts, breakdown the bird, made stock from the carcass, braise the legs in stock, and then roast the breast on top of the
+
+[26:26] legs. All right, listen, coffee Mike, before we go to a break. There are a couple things I think that are correct. First of all, there's what's the best tasting bird? And then there is the necessity, as an American, to present a full freaking bird at the table. Sometimes I've even had like people break it apart, cook a bird for taste, and then cook a bird for looks, which I think is kind of weird because it's a waste of bird. But one thing I will say is boning out the turkey, which I'm going to do does give you the opportunity to make a delicious stock to add to gravy
+
+[26:52] beforehand. So coffee, Mike, good call. I got a question to answer for you after the break.
+
+[27:04] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us.
+
+[27:19] To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[27:57] Today's program has been brought to you by Americacraft. America and 360 cookware are proud sponsors of heritageradionetwork.org. Americacraft is an American company. Unlike Heritage radio network, they provide the best. Their 360 cokeware is made of the highest quality ingredients, like United States steel. It is made in the greenest cookware manufacturing plant in the world. America makes great cookware, and is focused on improvement. 360 cookware is their exclusive line. It's a contemporary line of cookware and bakeware intended to let you, the heritage radio network listeners, have a unique cooking experience. Its vapor seal allows food to be cooked in its natural juices, preserving all of the vitamins, minerals, and other
+
+[28:40] nutrients without added water, oils, orph pats. 360 cookware invites you to learn more about how this process works on their website,
+
+[28:48] www.360 cookware.com. And we're back. Hey, Jack. Sorry, guys. Terry's brought to me by what? What's the second one? We got to talk about wine? No, just keep going, right? We're gonna talk about the wine? Yeah. Well, the wine the wine was just a, that's just a leftover gift. That's over gift? Yeah. Bonus sponsor gift. That the sponsor gift is what Pesetti Pecorino. What is pecorino? How does Pecorino? is also a grape. The goat grape? Do goats specifically like this grape? They used to feed the sheep and goats on the grape. For real? Yeah, before they started making wine with it. And then they fertilize it. So. Have you visited this region? Yeah, yeah. No, size, give drop the knowledge, stars. Look at that. That one of these episodes was brought to you by Nastasia and her wine. Yeah, nice. Oh, it's an enjoyable one. makes this thing? It is a barter house wine. Oh, I thought they dropped out of sponsoring. They're still friends. Or listen. Okay. Chuck S. writes in. Okay, we're going to talk about Jersey in a minute. In a minute. Let me get a question, because I don't want to run, I don't want to actually miss the question. I want to try to get through all my questions for once. All right. Chuck S writes in. sorry, so loud. I'm looking at buying a pressure cooker. From listening to your show, it seems like Kunricon is a good brand to get, although they have never given us a damn thing,
+
+[30:02] right? They're Swiss, right? Yeah, they're Swiss. don't give anything away. It's like the Pacojet people. They don't give anything. They take. They don't give. Nastasia loves this gift. What? Yeah, she loves the Swiss. Anyway, it seems like Kunricon is a good brand to get. I'd like to know a bit about the trade-offs with the various sizes they make. It seems like you can get a pressure cooker with anywhere from a 5 liter to an 8 liter capacity for similar amounts of money. I'm interested in using the pressure cooker to make stocks, beans, etc. Normally, I cook for 2 to poor people. 2 to 4 2 to 4 people. For instance, are there issues with buying the one of the larger pressure cookers and using it to cook small batches of food? Similarly, do you have to leave a lot of headspace when using the pressure cooker so that the smaller EG 5 liter cookers are effectively too small to make any practical amount of
+
+[30:47] stock? Thanks a lot, and I really enjoy listening to the show. Okay, look, 1st of all, I'll tell you the one I own. I own, they have 2 different main 3 main lines. The 2 main ones. They have things called pressure cookers, and the pressure cookers have handles on them typically. So do the fry prans. And then they have ones that they call stock pots, and the stock pots don't have kind of handles, long handles that you can hold. They have the little like dumbboat ear handles, like a pot has. Does that make sense, Stas? You know what I'm talking about when I say it? Okay. So what I own is the um, 7 quart or 7 liter or whatever it is, uh, pressure cooker with the long handle, and I've had it for a long time, probably 12 years or something like that. And I've beaten it doesn't have any handles on it anymore. I've broken them all off. There's nothing left on it. I've lost the vapor lid. It's all history. And I use it constantly. And that's the one that I would recommend you get for any size, any size, unless you're cooking extremely large amounts. That's what I'd get. If you're cooking beans, beans tend to have a lot of things that trap air and gas, that's what makes you toot, when you have the beans, is the fact that they have compounds in them, that you don't break down, they can trap gas, hence the gas. anyway. So, uh, to, so, like, um, so, therefore, you want a taller pressure cooker to allow that stuff when you're doing a
+
+[32:10] release, if you do a release, I typically don't like fast release on a pressure cooker, I let natural release happen, but if you're
+
+[32:16] going to do a fast release, you're going to want a taller head on it. Anyways, uh, the 7 uh, the 7 liter, 7 quart, I guess it's 7 liter. The 7 liter pressure cooker that I have has a bottom of 8.75 inches, which is nice for my
+
+[32:32] stovetop. So it doesn't scorch. It doesn't have a lot of hot spots, and it's got a really high quality bottom, all right? Now I'm going to run through all the sizes, so that'll give you an idea because the prices are fairly similar. You want to get one that is going to function all around for you best. I know you normally cook for 2 to 4, but if you're ever going to do 6 to 8 or you're going to make a large quantity of stock to freeze, you're going to want a higher quantity, all right? The 3.5 quart has a smaller bottom, 8 inches. It's too small. I don't know why the hell you would ever buy that because frankly, it doesn't take that long. What I usually do when I'm working is I'll get the pressure cooker up to temperature with the lid
+
+[33:03] off, and that way I can keep stirring it while the lid is off before I can get it up to
+
+[33:07] boiling, and that prevents it from scorching. I know some people like just throw the ingredients in, cap the lid and let it come up. I think that's a mistake that's going to cause scorching because you're not moving the stuff around once the lid is on. If that's your style, if for some reason, like that's your level of personal laziness, then maybe you need to get a smaller one so that it builds up a pressure head faster,
+
+[33:25] right? But if you're not going to do that, then once it's boiling, it builds up ahead of steam fairly quickly. So it's not that much longer to build up pressure in a large pressure cooker, within
+
+[33:35] reason than it is in a small pressure cooker. Now, if you all of a sudden get a pressure cooker that's so large that your stove has trouble getting all of that material up to temperature fast enough,
+
+[33:44] then pressure cookers that are too large are a huge problem. And I have an American pressure canner that's huge. How big is that when we have styles? It huge. It's huge. I can fit your sister in that thing. And that thing takes a long time to get up to temperature, right? So that is obviously a problem, but something like a 7 liter, uh, or, you know, does not take a long time to get up to temperature, especially because it has a very
+
+[34:05] uh, thick aluminum sandwich in the bottom of the base that conducts very well. So it's a good, that's a good all-around size. So I get it. So 3.5 quart. forget about it. The 5 liter, 6 liter, uh, the 5 liter, uh, pressure cooker, the 6 liter stock pot,
+
+[34:21] 7 liter, uh, pressure cooker, and the 8 liter family stock pot, all have the same 8.75 uh, inch bottom. They're just taller. And I like the taller ones because if you're actually going to do stock. I like taller, thinner things. The only disadvantage being that it's hard to brown a lot of things at one time. And if you want to do single layer braises. It's not as good, although I don't really think that's that big of a deal, right? So with that one, I'd probably still go with the one I have, the 7 liter pressure cooker. Maybe the 8 liter stock pot because I have cooked, sometimes things that are too large for mine. Anywho, um, Now you go to wider to 9.5 inches on the bottom and they make a fry pan or and a brazer. I would go for the brazer of those two, because you're not going to need the fry pan handle for that, and the brazer is a little bit taller. And if you like to do traditional braises, it's a little bit wider, so you can get your asabuko going and you can brown it. When I'm browning in mine with the smaller bottom, I have to do it in batches. I have to brown all my meat in batches, which is a little bit of a pain in the butt, right? Also, you're not going to be able to serve a braise out of it that way and your braise is going to get all jumbled up, right? So if you want to do a lot of braising, traditional style, you're going to want to get one of the braising pans and 9.5 inches across, but you could get one of the 11 inch across guys.
+
+[35:32] Like they make an 8 quart called stock, which is, I don't know why the hell they call it a stock pot, because it's short, like a brazer, but it holds 8 quarts. And that might be a good all-around thing. If you're not worried about a hotspot because it's a little bit bigger than most of your burners are going to be able to handle, but it handles a full 8
+
+[35:46] quarts, so it's or 8 quarts or 8 liters. It's the same size as mine, in terms of it's a little bigger than the one I have, but it's a lot wider if you tend to do braises.
+
+[35:54] anyway. And what they didn't used to make that I wish I had now is coon recon makes a 12 quart stockpot that's baller. With an 11 inch bottom. That's sick Anyway, they have a new type called a top model. I don't know what the hell that is. I never use it. It looks like it's still non-venting, but I can't recommend it. Is that enough? You think I got it? That's good. All right. hope that helps. Okay. Mike Trim, what was I going to talk about now? Jersey? Jersey in a minute. Jersey in a minute. Let me get my questions done. Mike Tremlay writes in about pausing. And this is all Twitter. It's mashed together from Twitter, so you have to apologize that it's all Twitter Mash. Techniques for par cooking food and finishing together. Roast turkey, starchy purees, roast vegetables, steamed vegetables. Would like to do mashed potatoes, roast cauliflower, et cetera, ahead of time, and finish it while the turkey rests, but how to do this without losing quality.
+
+[36:39] Soggy roast veg, dry mashed potatoes. Lots of books, lots of books tell me how to cook food. None of them tell me when to pause cooking and how to restart. That's an excellent question, right? Here's what I would say. Mashed potatoes, what you're going to want to do. Cook the mashed potatoes ahead of time. Add enough cream or butter. By the way, a lot of chefs, they don't like adding cream because it adds water to it instead of using butter, but I actually prefer the flavor of cream in my mashed potatoes to butter. I don't know why. Stagio cream or butter person. Butter. Anyway, whatever. Wiley agrees with you. I agree with me, but that's whatever. But take your mashed potatoes. And don't, you know, just make sure you do something pleasant. Like use a food mill or a ricer at home, Ricer is the easiest way to do it. You can go to any kitchen shop and get yourself a ricer, and you smash the potatoes through a ricer, and it comes out like, then it's beautiful. You don't need to do a lot of post things and you're not going to get gloopy, nasty mashed potatoes. So rice it, mix it carefully with whatever you're going to add, butter, cream, whatever. And then pack them into Ziploc bags, going back to Francois, my beloved Ziploc bags, pack them into Ziploc bags, exclude the air, and make sure they are thin on the order
+
+[37:38] of like less than half an inch. I would say like 3 eighths, something like that, like smash them flat, do them in a couple bags. Then, um, do whatever with them. I dont care what you do with them. doesn't matter to me. your mashed potato, right? Then about 20, 30 minutes before, just heat up some water. You don't even need to be that accurate, just get a pot of water frigging hot, right? And pull it off the stove so you don't blast it out, then throw the bags in to heat up. Because you've made them thin, they'll heat up very quickly and you can serve them out. Roast vegetables are a little more difficult because it's about an interior exterior difference of things. I would par cook like anglaise, like I would par cook them so that they're actually done in a kind of a steam situation. And then I would hit them very high in an oven for a couple of minutes to finish off if you want that kind of roast
+
+[38:24] butter, but it's not the same. What I really, it's not the same. So I don't even know why I'm telling you that because it's not the same. If you do a sous vide, if you do a low temperature cook in a bag of vegetables, you won't have any added water to
+
+[38:35] them and you'll get some of that roast flavor because you're not losing any volatiles and stuff, but it's really hard to get roast vegetables to come back to be exactly the same, right?
+
+[38:43] I need more time to think about that rather than just Twitter at it. Because I haven't I haven't successfully done that. I usually build around a non-roast. Or what you do is, is I just throw the, I throw the roast vegetables in with the turkey for the lasso, they'd pull it
+
+[38:55] out and let the roast vegetables finish while the turkey is coming. The main problem is finishing the mashed potatoes and getting those to finish, right? I wish I had a better answer for your roast veg, but, you know, I only have so many answers in life, I guess. I guess I'm a low quality person. What do you think? That's not true Well, I try. I do my best. Oh, thanks, Jack. Anyway, okay. Now, listen, I gave a sort of a half, what's the word I can use? By the way, I told my son, Dax, that jackass is not a curse because it's an animal, but he won't believe me. Every time I say they wear jackass. He's like, ooh. I'm like jackass is an animal. I was like, it's rude to call a person a jackass because no one wants to be likened to a jackass. But jackass is not a curse. How do you explain to him that jackass is not a curse, whereas using it to refer to your behind is a curse. It's very complicated for a seven-y year old. Yeah. Right? Anyway. What the hell brought me to that? said you didn't want to answer this half. Half half. half jackassed. Okay. So, and how does half-ass mean anyway? How do you use half of your behind for something? Where does that come from? Okay. All right, Rob Trey Paz, and I kind of gave a semi-answer to it. He wrote in saying, I didn't hear an answer, which is a very polite way of saying you gave a crappy answer. The question was, when I cook low temperature, sous vide at home, I typically serve all that I make. I assume we can serve all that I make, or chill sealed bags to retherm them for a separate meal. Typically, I follow the 72 hour rule at 5 degrees, 41
+
+[40:16] degrees Fahrenheit storage, FDA time and temp standards for sous vide, and my domestic refrigerator are freeze for longer
+
+[40:21] storage. If I follow the storage FDA storage guidelines, then sear a re thermic, can I safely hold the leftovers for the next day or 2 under refrigeration, do this FDA sous vide standards, only pertain, and if you look on page 186 of
+
+[40:33] Modernist Cuisine, volume one, I like that we now quote it like it's the Bible, one dash 186
+
+[40:37] Modernist Cuisine. Only pertain to time spent in the anaerobic environment, i.e. until the bag is opened. Do these restrictions go away if I use ziplocs instead of vacuum bags? Okay, so let me specifically just talk about that rather than the, because I'm sure you already made your duck riettes. So I'm going to answer that specifically. Listen, when you're doing low temperature work in a bag, the FDA guidelines are built around pasteurization times for bacteria, active bacteria. And beyond pasteurization times for active bacteria, the storage is then assuming that you have
+
+[41:09] destroyed. The storage guidelines are assuming that you've destroyed an adequate amount of the vegetative bacteria that's present, right?
+
+[41:17] So you've destroyed the listeria, you destroy the asheria coli, if you pasteurize it properly. What you're not able to destroy in regular cookings are the bacteria that form spores. So these bacteria are basically botch botulism, custrinium botulinum, perfringians,
+
+[41:37] custrinium, perfringians, and I swear to God, be serious. Be serious. You believe that? That's the one that's on rice that forms spores that if you leave rice at room temperature. You can get really sick. Yo, be serious. I love that. It's like the best name for it, it's the best name for it, for a pathogen of all time. anyway. So they're worried about sport forming things like this because you're not destroying those sports. So a lot of the holding time is worried about spore germination. Now, if you're holding food raw, it's different. Now you worry about bacterial growth about stuff that's already present, but assuming you've done a
+
+[42:07] pasteurization step, the question is spores. Now, most of those, uh, you know, the, or the 2 that are most common in meats anyway, uh, are anaerobic, meaning, um, as soon as you expose those things to air and reheat them again, uh, you have prevented, um, you've prevented those bacteria
+
+[42:28] from uh, growing because they require a lack of oxygen to grow. And so what you're doing is taking away that,
+
+[42:35] presumably you've killed the vast, vast, vast majority. You've done a D level, meaning 10 to the 6th reduction, 6 log reduction of the other pathogens that are present in there.
+
+[42:45] So the other, like, you know, the ones that might have been there that are aerobic. So the point being that, yes, I would assume that you are okay to reheat store for a normal period of time in your
+
+[42:55] fridge and then go again. However, as modernist cuisine points out, or as we call it, the new food Bible. Um, uh, you know, do not take my word as legal advice on how to properly preserve your health
+
+[43:09] and safety and welfare, right? Does that make sense? Now, on the way out, before I go on the way out, because you know I always leave before I forget. Before you close out, the term half ass. I've got it for you. it to me. Evolved from half ads and ads is an acts like tool with a curved blade that shaped wood. And if you were wealthy, you paid top dollar for a new fireplace, the mantle would be shaped using the ads in the
+
+[43:30] front as well as the backside, which is not visible. But if you weren't that rich and you saved money, you only had the front visible
+
+[43:36] portion shaped, cheaper job being called a half ads job. That is crazy. And by the way, I don't just call that cheap. I call that smart because you could have spent some time doing something else rather than finishing the back. Although I have to say when I disassemble things and someone is taking the care to do something on the inside that no one's ever going to see, I give a little secret baller.
+
+[43:56] You know what I mean? Don't you? Anyway, I like that, Jack. See, we got to get that more out. like that. That's awesome. I appreciate that. Okay. So, uh, Nastasia and Piper of last week's just not talking to his fame, right?
+
+[44:09] Uh, uh, I love Piper. Piper's good business. P Piper. I love Piper. Piper's great. Anyway, we went down to David Michael Flavorhouse in New Jersey, and I saw, because, you know, we're working, well, yeah, Philadelphia, which is kind of like, you know, okay,
+
+[44:24] yeah, okay. Philadelphia. Pennsylvania. Anyway, a lot of people who work there live in Jersey. Anyways. So, uh, we're working on some sodas at Booker and Dax equipment company. So we went down there to test out some flavors and whatnot, an amazing place, right? Really cool. I have never been in a flavor house before to see how kind of it's done professionally and it is bananas. I hope everyone someday gets a chance to visit a flavor house. It is an eye-opening thing. Let me tell you one thing that's going to make you sit before. Happy Thanksgiving, 1st of all. I wish you all good turkey, except for Michael Natkin, who I wish good whatever you're making. Michael, tell us what you're making. I'm interested. I want to know what like the most festive vegetarian Thanksgiving dishes are. Like, what's the giant baller, vegetarian, Thanksgiving, turkey, not a
+
+[45:05] substitute, because I know, Michael, that you're not substituting. I know you don't fall into that trap of making some cruddy thing that acts like a turkey that's not. I want to know something that takes the place of a turkey in a vegetarian
+
+[45:16] Thanksgiving that just kicks some serious behind. So if you hear this before Thanksgiving, Please let me know on the Twitter what it is that you do. But anyway, happy Thanksgiving, one and all, and what were we talking about? Flavor House. No, but after that, I was going to say, and I'm going to tell you about this really cool thing at the Flavor House. Oh my god, you're okay, listen to this. So David Michaels is the largest behind McCormick's producer of vanilla in the world. And they have like 8 bazillion different vanillas. And when I went and talked to the vanilla, one of their many vanilla experts there, they have, like, I met in, like, in like a period
+
+[45:50] of like an hour and a half, three, 4 hours, whatever. I met like a good 3 or 4% of all of the flavor flavors
+
+[45:56] on, on, you know, in the United States because they have like a bunch of them there. There's only 3 or 400. It's a really weird dark art of like craziness. Anyways, so like we met like their vanilla guru. And, uh, and, you know, I thought I knew something about vanilla. I mean, I've read a book or 2 on it. And I was like, I don't know anything about vanilla. You know what I mean? right? USA was like amazing. Anyhoo, so we visited their vanilla processing place. So listen to this. So they take all of this vanilla and they have barrels of vanilla. And back there, there was a crisis in Madagascar or when in 2004, something like that, they said. And it got up so expensive that like the drum of vanilla that we looked at in 2004 would have been worth like 50 grand to the one bucket.
+
+[46:36] And they have bucket after bucket. Don' break in. They have weapons. anyway. So listen. So we're looking at this bucket of chummed vanilla because they chum it all up before they do
+
+[46:45] their, that means chop. And before they put it in the alcohol, do the extraction. And then after they do the extraction, which is all proprietary hooha hooha, they put it in a centrifuge, and what's left is spent vanilla, and we tasted it, and it tastes not like vanilla. It tastes vaguely brown, almost like an olive tapanade, right? Almost like a black olive tapanade. It was crazy. I was very surprised. Get this. Then, what? Are you allowed to say this? Yeah. the hell. Anyway, so then check this. So if you buy the vanilla ice cream that has the little dots in it and you're like, yo, it's got dots. got the real vanilla. So listen, you buy it with the dots. Here, what they do. They take inherently flavorness, flavorless, actual vanilla seeds, little seeds, and then they take that and they mix it back into the extract that they just made to make it look real, but they're
+
+[47:34] actually theoretically. They're not adding that much. don't worry about it, but they're accident, they're actually dumbing down the flavor, but to give you the aesthetic appearance that, that, that somehow it's real, when in
+
+[47:44] fact, it was already real, and they added some extra BS to it to make it look more real. Cooking issues. Bye.
+
+[47:57] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:24] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey Farms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Cooking issues.
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Conan live at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Dave Arnold cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday in the back of Report of Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn here with
+
+[1:12] Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez, and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing today? Hey. All on 2 hour sleep. Can you believe that? Two hour sleep. Yeah. Well, that's why we needed a theme song like this one. Yeah, jack us up. Well, I like the fact that we have that, it's so stupid. Like, I go into the crazy mode and then here I am back in normal, normal mode. anyway. But we have like, we have 2 songs, which is awesome. So we have the break song, and then we have the crazy, you know, get me going with no sleep song. We'll take more. With listeners, we'll take more. Yeah? By the way, Joel, I'm trying to get McGee to call in and read the Myard stuff,
+
+[1:47] but, you know... It's that's going to be his Christmas present, if I can convince McGee to do that. Who? Oh, well, whatever. I mean, like, you know, I can give someone a Christmas present, regardless where they celebrate. It's not like it's not like I'm smacking them in the face. Like a gift is a gift. If someone wants to get, hey, look, anyone out there wants to give me a gift from some other
+
+[2:06] religion, I am glad to accept it. See? Yeah, right? What about you guys? It depends. He's like, no Zoroastrian gifts. Right? What gift would you not accept, Jack? Is that Jack or Joe who wouldn't accept? That was me, Jack. and I don't know. I mean, are there like Scientology holidays? Oh, you know? I think I think not. I think not too. Like, I don't know. Maybe they're Scientology gifts. Uh, well, there's there's always one Scientology gift. Dianetics. Okay. We have a question in. By the way, seriously, you can call any questions live 2718-497-2128. 784972128. Oh, this weekend we had the CNN thing went on. I cannot believe that Nastasia managed to not be on that entire half hour program. They didn't ask Piper either, and yet he's on, you know, why? Because he didn't hide away from the camera. did not hide. I was in clear view. Well, that's actually not true. You rescheduled your flight back to the country to miss the cooking issues episode when
+
+[3:10] they went through a lot of hoops. You're like, yeah, have him come that day. Everything's fine. Oh yeah, I'm not going to be here. They came the 2nd time, though. Yeah, but they'd already done most of the shoot. Look, just people, like, people, she does not want to be on the camera. She's a crazy person. She's a crazy person, but not just for that reason. Many reasons. Please call in and convince her that next time she should not hide from the cameras. But I thought it was good. It was fun. Jose, I will be on. I like it's an expose day. Speaking of expose. I was very happy with the program. I enjoyed it. Um, which is unusual. I detest watching myself in any form. But the, um, So CNN did a blog and the blog post that they decided to do was on liquid
+
+[3:53] nitrogen. So they like, I don't know, they put the liquid nitrogen, and then the internet trolls came out of their freaking caves and were typing all sorts of nonsense about liquid nitrogen.
+
+[4:04] So, 1st of all, it was all about that awful case we talked about, you know, a couple of weeks a month ago now, maybe, right? Or this, like, you know, incredibly unfortunate, this 18-year-old woman in England was served, liquid nitrogen to drink, which is
+
+[4:20] horrible and unconscionable thing for a bartender do, and she lost her stomach. And it's
+
+[4:25] horrible and completely awful. But also, would never happen with anyone who's using liquid nitrogen properly. But you get all these, like, freaks on the internet who have no idea what they're talking about, and they just are
+
+[4:41] slamming, slamming me for using liquid nitrogen, saying things that are patently untrue about liquid
+
+[4:48] nitrogen. Like, for instance, this one person, and this, I, commented once to set some stuff straight, and then this, I, like, don't comment again. Just leave it alone. Leave it alone. leave it alone. But here it's my radio show. I get to do what I want. So this one person says, who's, by the way, their actual name is, yeah, right. I think that's their handle. Oh, I know, I'm kidding, because any anonymous jerk sitting alone in their underwear can make comments on the
+
+[5:10] internet, like they're, like they know what's going on. But anyways, so what happened is they say, well, you know, there's always the possibility for human error.
+
+[5:19] So there's no reason to do it, which is, I mean, the possibility for human error using liquid nitrogen, if you use it properly in terms of a customer getting hurt that way, like a horrible thing happened in England, is roughly on the order of saying that if a chef was chopping onions in plain view of a
+
+[5:35] customer, that they might trip and throw the knife through the customer's head. And if that happened, then, you know, we should ban the use of knives in kitchens. It's simply ridiculous. Like, I cannot state in stronger terms how awful it is what happened in England and how thoroughly, thoroughly punished the person is who did that and how freaking horrible it is that
+
+[5:58] they did that. And I also cannot emphasize in stronger terms that that is not a reason to ban the use of liquid
+
+[6:04] nitrogen and that people writing it on the internet simply don't know what they're talking about. And I kept on getting the gimmick crap. The guys, the guys who are against liquid nitrogen, by and large, are throwbacks, it
+
+[6:16] seems, from their writing, to like a very old school of thought where they just think everything's a party trick. They don't, they're not bothering to pay attention. Forget what I'm doing with it or, you know, anyone at the bar, anyone that knows me
+
+[6:28] is associated with me. If you look around, there are many, many uses of liquid nitrogen that
+
+[6:33] are not gimmicks, right? I'm sure there are uses of liquid nitrogen that are gimmicks in the same way that if you go to a Benihana, no offense to the Benihana people, but if you go to
+
+[6:42] Benihana, their knife use is a gimmick. Do you know what I'm saying? So, yes, a knife can be used as a gimmick and liquid nitrogen can be used as a gimmick. And a knife can be used to, you know, cook. And liquid nitrogen can be used. Well, it won't cook because it's cold, but you know what I'm saying, right? Is that enough? Elliot Papineau tweets, please also ban fire. It's very dangerous. You know, he's right. It is extremely dangerous. I've been burnt several times this year alone. You know, uh, but, uh, Anyway, so that goes into, uh, uh, we have a question. Oh, I don't have the person. Oh, from Paul, uh, at American Meltdown. He says, I graduated from FCI back in 07. We didn't get to interact much. I was in the last class of the old 4 phase, culinary tech, paradigm, and there was no culinary technology stuff. I had a question about, well, I was there, but I didn't wasn't teaching the regular bubble bars, I guess, yet. Anyways. No, I did. Anyway, whatever. I had a question about liquid nitrogen. I own and operate the American meltdown food truck in North Carolina. We serve gourmet melts and grilled chees. I like grilled cheese. You like grilled cheese sauce? You love, right? That's one of the few things, Nastasia. Actually, I can legitimately say Nastasia loves yourself the grilled cheese. Do you like anything? First time I've heard her say the word love on the show, I think. I know it. I know it. Is it your 2012 love? Is it because your mom didn't make grilled cheese sandwich? Yeah? Yeah? Do you enjoy things on your grilled cheese or do you like, what kind of cheese do you like? Well, that's the other love you have. Swiss. What was the 2nd one? cheddar. cheddar. It doesn't melt very well. You don't care? don't care. Alright. What do you think about American cheese? No, don't like it. Don't like it? Don't like it. You're patriotic, David. I don't know. I know what they do with patriotism. Do you know where American cheese was invented in England? Oh, in Switzerland, maybe. It wasn't Europe anyway. It was not here. It was invented. Actually, no, it was invented by the Swiss. It's been the Swiss nostalgia. why? As a fondant, looking up right now. The book, the book, which I downloaded somewhere on my computer is processed cheese analogs, but I believe processed cheese was invented by the Swiss, which makes sense because of their love of freaking fondue.
+
+[8:46] But look it up. Anyway, back to the question. I had a question about liquid nitrogen, blah, blah, blah. I wanted to bring on some liquid nitrogen for a play on frozen grilled cheese. I don't know how you would freeze a grilled cheese, though. But anyway, I don't know. I mean, like, but in other words, if you freeze the grilled cheese, it's frozen grilled cheese. I don't understand. But anyway, I've had some difficulty with equipment. I found the place to buy the liquid nitrogen and the guys will let me carry it off in a Styrofoam box. As far as dispensing it. Do I need a tank? Where would I get a tank to hold LN? I saw some one liter ones at McQueenlabs.com. In my head, I have a tank with a hose, and I would put something like olive oil into a
+
+[9:21] bowl and then squirt in the liquid nitrogen, and it would get the popcorn like frozen shapes, which is similar to
+
+[9:26] the, you know, Danny Garcia, the famous Spanish chef, used to make frozen olive oil in various ways. But he actually did it exactly in the reverse, right? Or would I pour some ladle, some liquid nitrogen into a bowl and then pour the olive oil in? That is what typically you would do. So in fact, I saw Danny Garcia once do the olive oil demo in a
+
+[9:43] Styrofoam box. And when he's doing his stuff, when he's, when you're freezing olive oil, the trick is, is that it breaks up into little
+
+[9:50] pieces, uh, like almost like couscous. So he, if you sit in the LN long enough, it makes this like couscous-like thing. If you want like kind of foamy or denser things, he used to emulsify different amounts of water in to get different textures, the more water you add, the more it hurts your face, though, because the water hurts a lot when you put it in
+
+[10:07] cold, frozen like that, whereas the olive oil by itself doesn't have as high of a specific
+
+[10:12] heat, so it can't actually damage you as badly. But anyway, he would put olive oil in an ISI canister shaken up and
+
+[10:20] then foam into the liquid nitrogen and the aeration would also make it less damaging on tongue, provide interesting texture and get those popcorn like things. So that's how Danny Garcia used to do it. And in fact, I did that demo once because we had a whole bunch of liquid nitrogen and people wanted to see it. I'm like, all right, I'm now going to pretend I'm Nanny Garcia because I hate doing other people's demos. So I literally was like, I am Danny Garcia, but not. anyway. And so I did like, because I had seen him do his demos. So I did, you know, I did a lot, a lot of those. I mean, not as well as he did. I'm not trying to say I was, but anyway, I did that. So, um, okay. So you don't, if you're putting into Styrofoam box, there's not much point in putting it into, into something, I mean,
+
+[10:56] Styrofoam box is not so good. You got to be careful when you have a Styrofoam box because they can crack. And if they crack, they dump liquid nitrogen everywhere. So you want to make sure that if you do use a styro, it's like something sturdy like a fish tub and that you have it in a cardboard with duct tape around it so that it doesn't break.
+
+[11:11] Um, you can pour it into coffee crafts is the easiest way, uh, because you're not going to be that, uh, you know, you're not going to be that efficient in storing it this way anyway. Eventually, you're going to want to go get like a 35 liter doer or something like that. Okay. And you ask, do I need a tank? Will the LN just evaporate quicker without one? Yes, that's the case. It'll just evaporate quicker. And, you know, the problem with Styrofoam boxes. They also have a fairly large surface area. So unless you keep it capped all the time. You're going to lose a lot. and when you pull the thing off, you're going to lose a lot. But if you're getting a cheap price on it, it's an okay way to start out. Just be careful that it can't slosh around because things can slosh out of those containers and then get liquid nitrogen all over
+
+[11:49] everywhere. And if you're not being cautious, especially if you're in a food truck, never let it get in a situation where the liquid nitrogen is above the head of a customer and you're serving down to them with liquid nitrogen because then you
+
+[12:00] could get liquid nitrogen. You could pour it like, you know, potentially into their eyes or inside of a piece of their clothing where it could get trapped and cause severe burns.
+
+[12:07] You also want to make sure you don't have large amounts of liquid nitrogen inside of your truck unless your truck is completely ventilated to the
+
+[12:13] outside so that you have no possibility of, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Asphyxiation, asphyxiation. Nostasia's like, I don't know. Oh, and it was the British, not Swiss, for American cheese. It was British? For processed cheese in general. Look up processed cheese and melting salt in general. That's not American cheese. Okay, well, clearly at least American cheese was invented by the Brits, but processed cheese in general, I
+
+[12:35] believe, was invented by the Swiss. So I've got 1911 by Walter Gerber in Switzerland. Wait, wait, wait, wait. That's processed cheese. James L. Kraft is the 1st who applied for a patent for the method in
+
+[12:49] 1916, and then Kraft was the 1st to commercial, commercially sliced them, keep them, you know, sell them sliced in 1950. In the U.S. In the US. In the US, yeah. Yeah. The Swiss. So Nastasia, your precious... Well, what do you think American cheese is? Hello, it's processed cheese made with cheddar? Duh. Hey, by the way, just so you know, I've said this before on the show, but this is what I do with my kids. I give them a prize. Anyone, the 1st person who calls in, I'll send you $2 if you get this. So what is going to be more likely to produce a better emulsified, uh, uh, processed cheese product, an aged cheese or a non-aged cheese? First coloring gets 2 bucks. I don't know how am I going to get 2 bucks? Wow. PayPal. PayPal. will PayPal you 2 bucks. Okay. Now, back on the thing. We are in close space being inside the truck, but there are 2 huge ventilation hoods, a service window and a large back door that can swing open. I feel that has enough airflow, but I could be wrong. Thanks for your time and response. It could be enough airflow. Just make sure that there's no possibility that one of your workers is in there and it gets
+
+[13:47] sealed. Like, for instance, when you're driving, and if you're driving and they have a, like, a big tub of liquid nitrogen and you get hit, it could dump
+
+[13:55] over, and then the entire styro cooler of liquid nitrogen is on the floor of your truck and it's
+
+[14:00] sealed, and then you're shafted, because you might have gotten knocked out and you can't open the window or something like that. So anytime you have liquid nitrogen in a vehicle like that, it has to be away from you, secure, and all the windows have to be open. Right? That's what that's the rule. Nastasia's like, I don't want to talk to you about it. We're on the show. What are you talking about? There's no one else I can talk to. Okay. Um, Tony, Tony Herrion writes in from the mixing bar in Brazil. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joel. Joe. I don't want to say Joel, crazy, because we're going to talk about Joel later. Yeah. Salute from Brazil once again. This Tuesday I've been invited to speak to a group of bartenders, media, and industry people about the use of salt
+
+[14:37] in drinks in Sao Paulo. They I want to go to Sao Paulo. I don't like Portuguese. The language or the people? But do you don't like like European Portuguese or Brazilian Portuguese? But see, I like Brazilian Portuguese, but actual Portuguese makes no sense to me. It sounds like Russian. Is that why you like it? Sounds all crazy to me. Like Portuguese from Portugal sounds all crazy to me. And like Brazilian Portuguese sounds like Portuguese to me. Anyway, uh, okay. The project is called Mentes Brijantes, Brijantes, Brilliant Minds, and is produced by the Brazilian
+
+[15:10] cocktail site, mixology news to promote the exchange of ideas within our cocktail scene. My presentation is pretty much all set up, but we also include any hint or pointer from the cooking issues team. I know from the episode you did with Tony Canallaro that you use or Tony C, as they say, Tony C. Do you know that in America, when you pronounce the ballplayers, the dead famous Boston Red Sox ballplayer's name that they literally, even like I was talking to my 93 year old, my stepfather's father, my step grandfather, whatever, you know, who's Italian,
+
+[15:37] Adonisio, right? from Boston, and I need SEAL. Anyway, so he even says Canigliaro. Canigliaro. That's what the Bostonites call him anyway, whatever. Simon's going to start calling Tony, Tony Canigliaro. What do you think? I like it. You like that? Tony Connigliaro. Anyway, that you use salt and a few drinks at Booker and Dax. fact, we use them in most drinks in Booker and Dex. Anything that has any form of fruit in it, really, coffee, chocolate, anything like that has salt in it. Sub threshold, sub threshold. But would love to hear more of your experiences with it. I'm going to use the drink. The search for delicious to exemplify how salt can help bitterness in drinks.
+
+[16:12] Participants will get a glass containing China, Punta Mez, and orange bitters, and will gradually add lemon juice and salt tincture. The salt tincture is going to be at 100 mils of water and 15 grams of salt, which is roughly what we do, right? to see how it changes over time, tasting the drink at each step. I know it's a bold cocktail, but it's pretty impressive how a few drops of salt mass, it can really change this drink. The workshop is based on the article I wrote for mixology. news a while ago, but of course, it's in Portuguese, so it's useless to me because, and I hate Google Translator. I'm sorry. Sorry, Tony, I can't stand the Google translator. Do you like Google Translate? It's awful. It's always wrong. Always, wrong. Any pointers ideas about the use of salt and drinks and its effects appreciated. I'm sure to mention a lot about you guys in seminar. Cheers, Tony. Okay, so 1st of all, I was not aware of this word, but here's my favorite new title in the world. Maybe this is what you should become instead of error apparent. Maybe you should be chemosensory psychophysicists. I think that's a real. It's real. Yeah, I know, but people earn that. You think? You think that's like an earned title? You can't just like, it's like, it's like everyone says, I'm an architect. Did you go to architecture school? Did you pass a test, you know what I mean? It's like, so you think it's like that? You have to actually pass a test to be a chemosensory psychophysicist. Got the word psycho in it. Yeah, well, you can stick with that. Psychophysicist. Like, what if it's just psychophysicist and not chemosensory psychophysicist? you be that? Sure. Okay. Anyway, so, like, very, very clearly, the people who are the top of their game on this are uh, PA Breslin and uh, G.K. Beauchamp, and
+
+[17:45] they they work for Monel out of Philadelphia, and they've written all of the good articles on salt and bitterness.
+
+[17:50] And some of the good ones you might want to look at, like a lot of their, like, classic work was done in the late 90s. And so you might want to look up salt enhances flavor by suppressing
+
+[18:00] bitterness and another good one is salt taste. Which is a chapter in a book. That one came out in 2008 and that's a good, it's good because it's a, it's what it's called. It's a review, a review section. anyway. So the interesting thing is, and by the way, while I was researching this to get some more information, I learned some extremely interesting things.
+
+[18:23] So everybody knows that um, and I guess everybody doesn't know this. If you present something that smells sweet with something that it makes everything taste sweeter. So like, in other words, if I give you banana aroma and sugar, it tastes sweeter than if I just gave you banana aroma alone.
+
+[18:43] Does that make sense? And if I add certain things, but if I ask you to
+
+[18:49] evaluate, and then things have different synergy. So typically if you add salt, salt, masks, bitterness. So like if you add salt to it, bitterness level is reduced. Typically, if you, but what's crazy is if I ask you to rate, there's very recent scholarship that, that when you just have someone rate a single thing like sweetness, it all makes sense, but that if you actually say, for instance, in sweet, if you're
+
+[19:11] going to do a sour and salt together, if you ask someone to rate the, wow, someone just tossed a pizza on someone's chest, it was awesome.
+
+[19:17] sleep. You see that? We watched the kind of like dining room here. And there was a there was a pizza chest toss. anyway. Grease on cashmere. Yeah, grease on cashmere. That's a good band. Anyone out there, you're welcome. Grease on cashmere. that sounds like a lot like, remember that band lubricated goat? Yeah. Was Lubricated Goat the one who's had the album Circusized Peanut? Look that up. Someone looked up. Yeah, see, see, see whose album was circuscised Peanut. I think it might have been lubricated goat. Great bad names, family show. Okay, so back to what I was saying. But if you actually tell someone, okay, now rate salt and and sour separately, they can.
+
+[19:55] They can rate it. But anyway, in general, salt is extremely complicated. So the way the way it affects your taste. So the way it affects your taste is very dependent on concentration. So when you add salt, for instance, like some people add salt to coffee. When you're adding salt to things in low concentrations,
+
+[20:13] you so, okay, look, I get so, I get so like all over myself. My head's going at like a 1000000 miles a minute that I can't, I got to slow down, slow down, slow down the head. Okay. If you take a bitter and a bitter component, and let's say a sweet component, and you have them together, the, in a drink. The bitter component and the sweet component will mutually suppress each other. Does that make sense? Right? So it'll taste both less sweet and less bitter. But if you add salt to that, right? Even fairly small amounts of salt to that mixture, what ends up happening is, the salt suppresses the bitterness, but also undoes
+
+[20:54] the undoes the suppression that the bitterness did to the sweetness. So it tastes even sweeter. So it tastes like the bitterness is going down and the sweetness is going
+
+[21:06] up, even though actually what's happening is you're unmasking the, the, you're unmasking. The bitter is no longer masking up the sweetness. And this is like really super interesting work that like Beauchamp and Breslin did out of
+
+[21:19] Mono and like everyone should, everyone should kind of, kind of read that. But just in, um, in very kind of, uh, round terms, in the article, salt enhances the flavor, uh, by suppressing bitterness. He says, our data shows that in addition to adding desired saltiness to food, salt, potentiate
+
+[21:35] flavor through the selective suppression of bitterness, and perhaps other undesirable flavors, and the release from suppression of palatable
+
+[21:43] flavors such as sweetness. The desire for NACL and other salts and foods is diverse as often bitter vegetables, oily foods, and meats may be due in part to their ability to suppress unpleasant flavors. This may explain why it is difficult to make low sodium foods acceptable. That's a quote from that article. Another interesting thing that Beauchamp in his, what's that thing called? A review article gives a really interesting example that you can smack your friends across the face with sub-threshold salt,
+
+[22:10] right? And I've said this a 1000000 times on the air, but I've never said it so succinctly, and that's why these are the smart guys. This is in salt taste. So, Nastasia, does bread taste like the average loaf of bread? Does it taste salty? No. No, it doesn't, right? So I would call that sub-threshold salt, right? And so, but when you get Tuscan bread, it what? Taste good. It sucks. Everyone knows it sucks. You're being ornery. Tuscan bread has no salt and it sucks. And so that shows you kind of the incredible rounding effect that salt can have on
+
+[22:43] something, even though it's below a threshold. And that, in fact, is the exact thing. What Beauchamp says. Uh, he says, I think it's a he. I don't know, maybe woman. She, he. don't know. Um, that consider, again, bread and bread products. The salt in these make up the single largest source of sodium consumed in the US diet. I did not know that. I did not know that. Yet we typically do not perceive bread is salty. Bread without salt tastes insipid or bad, like Tuscan bread does. That's emphasis is mine. When salt is added, the flavor is enhanced without making the bread tastes salty. The salt, when added to food, must have functions other than adding saltiness, and then goes on to explain what they are. Wow. What? These guys are... They can't see. You got to say what's going on if you're going to make a comment. really like whacked out customers that just left right now. Well, 1st of all, it's raining cats and dogs here. It's like the day you'd never need sunglasses in Bushwick and... Two of the 3 of the group are wearing sunglasses. Yeah, and like, you know, major like, you know, leaning back and then, you know, I had to actually use this interesting. I had to use the women's bathroom today before the show. And by the way, the Roberta's people apparently love women a lot more than they love men
+
+[23:52] because you've been to the men's bathroom? Yeah, men's bathroom, hellhole. Not just because it's filthy because men are filthy. Just it's like laid out. Like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. So you're, you know, your legs are smashed into this sink. I don't care You know? So the door is going to clock you in the head if, you know, who cares? You're a dude. know what I mean? The women's like, you know, you could turn around. You know, you can wash your hands. The bigot's not like, you know, like half a millimeter off of the, and what at, what? But anyway, so the reason I went into the women's bathroom, I was given specific, okay, because apparently, uh, a couple had gone in there and they were finishing up last night's festivities. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not it's not that they're like that in the morning. It's still nighttime for them. Yeah, we'll see when Indie Jesus isn't around all hell breaks. Boom. Oh, that's a good one. No, geez, that's good. That's good business. All right. And two, just to break it down the line for you. For example, this is a quote again from these guys. For example, sub-threshold salt levels, increase perceived sweetness and decrease perceived acidity, whereas
+
+[25:02] sub-threshold, sugar concentrations make a food taste less salty than it actually is. And in very weak concentration, salt might actually enhance the flavor of
+
+[25:10] acids because it's not linear. It changes whether it's subthreshold, super threshold, and how much. So the answer is there is no answer. You like that? Nastasia loves, there is no answer. Oh, you want to go to our 1st commercial break? Let's do it. Is that for me? Yeah. Cooking issues.
+
+[26:10] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to thousands of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member of visit heritageradionetwork.org today. Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days and hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[26:56] pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. Ooh, reverb. Uh, we have a caller, yeah? Yeah, call or you're on. Call her on the air. Yeah, hey, Dave, Mark Jansen here down in Lexington, Kentucky. Nice. Hey, man, I've been listening to you guys. This is Tasia, Jack, Joe. It's been a dream to get all this information over the radio. Fantastic. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. What do you got for us? All right, this is Apropos, because I'm also a food truck owner, and this also
+
+[27:36] can kind of had something to do with Portuguese cooking. So here we go. I'm doing a Macau style pork chop bun tomorrow for a gig, and of course it has some kind of Portuguese influence and Chinese influence. But my big question is, I'm gonna coat this in a starch. and then deep fry it after I marinate the pork chop after I marinate the pork chop. On starches. What do you think lends to a more crispy crust if, I'm just really powder coating it. I'm not going to do a batter. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's everyone has their own feeling. 1st of all, you're going to, you said you're going to sous vide it and then like bring it, they're going to be thin enough that you're just going to fry from cold after
+
+[28:18] they're, after they're low temp? Is that what you said you were going to do? Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Um, I mean, I think there's a couple things going to look. Everyone has their own view about kind of what's going on, but the issue with any kind of skim coat is that you're,
+
+[28:32] you're, you're, unless it's dry. It's hard to get like a real crunchy surface on it unless, you know, I need to do more research on it. I learned here at Roberta's. They do a chicken that's a variant of a kind of a well-known restaurant that was closed at the time, but it's
+
+[28:47] open again called pies and thighs. And they literally take it out of their brine, throw it into flour, and then
+
+[28:54] fry it. So apparently like everything I learned, because when I learned it was, you know, you'd make a pellicle, uh, you know, you dry it
+
+[29:00] real, real, so to get adhesion, and then you do uh,
+
+[29:04] flour liquid flour fry, which is not what you're looking to do. But these guys go directly into the starch from wet. Were you going to go into the starch from wet or no? I was thinking about patting it dry at least. Yeah. Right. But not a multiple coat. I'm keeping it thin. Uh, and I was leaning toward uh, a cornflower. Uh, keeping it in the kind of Chinese tradition, but uh, that corn exactly is old world, but. Right. I mean, you know, I've done uh, rice starch batters, and they're, they're, you know, they have that a certain flavor, and in fact, some people, even if it would put, uh, you know, but you can't in your application, but
+
+[29:42] they, they put some, uh, uh, you know, Cal in there, some some basic stuff in there
+
+[29:47] to to alter it or baking soda even. But, you know, nils, uh, Noran always used to use uh, water chestnut uh, flour. And he swore by water chestnut flour. Now, chestnut flour. The storeroom used to make that mistake all the time. Water chestnut flower. And it was good, but that was what he always used to swear by. Uh, you know, and I don't know which one of the countries over there that he was working in where he picked it
+
+[30:12] up. I't know whether we picked that up in China. I don't know if he picked it up in Singapore. I don't know where he picked it up But that was his go to for when we when we used to do the whole fish, the whole striped bass, and he
+
+[30:23] wanted, and we would pull it out, we would only let it, you know, dry off for a second, he would always dust it
+
+[30:27] in water chestnut flour. And I have to admit, it was better in my in my memory than when we just used, you know,
+
+[30:35] playing wheat flour or any of the other kind of normal, normal starches.
+
+[30:39] You might want to look at a modified starch, like crisp coat, or something like that. And it's not going to be too expensive in the, um, in the quantities that you're using probably, least, you know, unless you're going to do it forever. I think you can get that stuff from modernist pantry. But, you know, that stuff, you know, when it's designed to form a kind of a moisture barrier so that
+
+[30:58] it, you know, crisp coat, hence its name crisp coat. But it could be added also to other starches. So you don't need to use exclusively that. In fact, in industrial usage, they use it only at around, I think, around 10% usage ratio versus other starch, but it definitely is built to increase adhesion and crispness in
+
+[31:14] the in the in the coating. So you might want to look into something like that. Interesting. Do you think that Chris is something that is put into, say, wonder? Wonder, uh, you know, I've also never done a lot of testing with frying with wonder. Wonder is just like it's agglomerated so that it dissolves, you know, easily. Uh, and there are some people who swear by Wandra coatings in
+
+[31:39] their, in their frying, but I used it only once or twice in
+
+[31:43] tests, and I, you know, my feeling was that it had a weird taste, but it could have been something else.
+
+[31:47] I really didn't give it enough of a test to say that I love it or I don't. And for some reason, I never got in the habit of keeping Wanderer around for gravies because I, you know, I just... Right. It's not necessary. And by the way, I'm not like an, it needs to be necessary kind of a guy. It's just, I just never bothered, never bothered becoming a part of my pantry, but there are people who swear by it. Have you ever tried? you ever tried it or do you like it? Hello? Oh, I'm still here. No, I'm not a wonder guy either. It just says something that's down here in the south more. Uh, and I was wondering since you mentioned Chris Cote, that maybe that was part of its uh, profile. Yeah, no, no, it's just, I mean, in other words, like what they do to certain starches. If you look up the natural, national starch, which is a starch company that I like to go to a lot, they, you know, they have a lot of agglomerated starch
+
+[32:40] products. For instance, like Wonder is the is the starch equivalent of ultra spurse versus ultra
+
+[32:46] techs. So, you know, it's prehydrated. Well, those are prehydrate, ultra spurs, and ultra texts. I really know how winter is done, but the one's agglomerated so that it dissolves easily and doesn't clump up and the other one's a pain in the butt.
+
+[32:58] Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm, Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I may check into that water chestnut flour. We've got some good Asian markets here and I might be able to source that. Yeah, and I'm just doing it off the top of my head. So you should when you do some research on it, let us know what happens. Send us a tweet or something. Excellent. I shall man. Thank you, everybody. I appreciate it. All righty. Good luck. Uh, why does my iPad shut down? I hate that. Okay. Oh, by the way, we got a question. Jack, we're okay over there? We got another caller? Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, Dave, a couple questions about pressure cooker stock, and then one about sweet potato fries, if I'm not taking up too much time. Let's go, let's do it. Okay, so when I make pressure cooker stock, what you got me started on and I'm having outstanding results with. If, if I just don't open the lid on a Kunwicone do a dramatic, after the last extraction, however many I'm doing,
+
+[33:54] is it sealed enough to just be canned and like room temperature stable for a day or 2? All right, that's an excellent question. Excellent, excellent question. And, um, Okay, so if you were to, uh, when you bring it up to pressure, like, just do a couple of
+
+[34:17] ch- vent to get all the extra air out and you've done it a couple of times, I would say, I
+
+[34:24] would, I would be okay with it. I've not done the studies because if you look at actual pressure canning. They're very, very clear that you need to purge the entire thing from with air and then have it be full steam before you start your timing on it for being
+
+[34:40] canned. But I think the reason they're doing that is because they're cooking it for a bare minimum amount of time and they don't want air trapped in next to the food particle, which is going to slow heat
+
+[34:49] transmission and therefore going to slow the rate of cooking. I think that if you're doing a stock for long enough that it's probably not an
+
+[34:56] issue and at the outside and all the air and everything that's in that headspace are going to get
+
+[35:02] fully, um, you know, fully, you know, pressure cooked. Um, Now, if you're going to reheat the stock. Remember, the stock is not like, it's not really cannibal straight. I mean, it is. I mean, if you if you do it long enough, if you follow the procedures, it should be. Long story short, I don't know whether I can feasibly recommend it to you. but I do it. So it's not FDA approved, but should probably work. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually do that because like a lot of times, you know, what will happen is, and you know, like Harold McGee and Roman got into like a little bit of a thing about Roman saying he just leaves regular stocks out
+
+[35:39] on and then just reheats them, which is what everyone used to do in the old days. You know, they'd keep a soup going for a whole week. And I did that during the blackout here when we had Hurricane Sandy. But, um, but you know, the, the, uh, you know, many times I will have the pressure cooker going and I don't want to, you know, it's late at
+
+[35:56] night, it's late at night. I want to go to bed. I've made dinner and now I'm making a stock out with the bones that I had left over from the prep out at
+
+[36:02] dinner. And I'll leave it overnight and then put it in the fridge in the morning and I don't really feel bad about it.
+
+[36:06] Uh, yeah, because I'm, uh, well, hey, I want to do exactly what you just described, and also on Thanksgiving, I mean, you know, I'm just running out of space for everything, and if I could just run the last pressure cooker with the turkey stock and set it in the garage and forget about it
+
+[36:21] till I need it again. I mean, that's that's just very helpful. Yeah, I would not leave it forever. I wouldn't consider it 100%. Yeah. I'm talking 24, 48 hours, Max, just enough to get, you know, get it done and out of the way if I'm getting ready for a big family deal. Yeah, and I say reheat it. Two. Oh, yeah. Well, reheating is pretty much the same with anything I would do with it would be going in something hot, like, Uh, I make gravy with a fairly dark, uh, butter and
+
+[36:48] flour, boo, and, you know, that, when the stock hits that gravy, when the stock hits that root, it's about 350 degrees or something ridiculous. Right, right, right. And then you boil it from there. So, I mean, so reheating is definitively part of the program. Yeah, I mean, I mean, most things that are going to develop would be heat labile anyway if you're going to reheat them. I mean, again, like, I just feel very hesitant to say it's okay on the air and yet I do do it. Okay, well, that's that's sometimes maybe as good as you get. Yeah, yeah. And you got a 2nd question you said? 2nd thought question. I've been doing some double and even one triple extraction, which just came out fantastic. Um, based on the method you described a month or 2 ago where you, you know, just keep pulling, you know, you, you
+
+[37:35] want the pressure cooker, uh, let the pressure come down, take one batch of bones in, and run it again without ever cooling it
+
+[37:43] off. How many times can you do that before something weird happens? Jeez, I know I don't know. I've never done more than three. Um, but I figure there's got to be a diminishing marginal return. I think, you know, it's been years since I, it's been years since I've done side by sides on that or like, or kept a little back and tasted it, but I bet you that you're not getting much after about, about 3, 2 or
+
+[38:07] 3, 3, on chicken bones, probably three. Uh, but I mean, it really makes a fantastic stock, doesn't it? I mean, that triple stock is crazy. I made I did a triple extraction among some beef bones for faux here a while back and it was
+
+[38:21] just amazing. Yeah, I mean, that's, that is like, you know, people, no one makes it anymore because, you know, if you were actually going to do it, it's, it's, if
+
+[38:28] A's would be expensive in a restaurant sitting and B, it would take forever if you were doing it in kind of a standard way, but you can do it so quick and just the depth of flavor on that stuff's nuts, right?
+
+[38:38] Oh, it's, I mean, it's just unbelievable. And also, it's advantageous for me, that the stronger I can make it, I can make soup and dilute it back out a little
+
+[38:48] bit, so it improves my storage efficiency since my freezer is permanently stuffed. Yeah, right. I mean, I got that technique from James Peterson. I forget which one of, you know, he was, you know, one of my favorite cookbook writers back in
+
+[39:01] the in the day. I guess he's still writing, but, you know, I think that's where I that's where I picked that one up like a long time
+
+[39:06] ago. The, the, not from the pressure cooker, but just the idea of a triple stock in general. As opposed to, as opposed to doing a lot of reductions, because he was one of the early people that I can remember, saying that, you know, he preferred, uh, you know,
+
+[39:19] 3 like more heavy duty, uh, bone to water ratios rather than, uh, rather than, you know, making a weak stock
+
+[39:27] in reducing it, which is what most people do. And I think it's not as good. And, you know, and he kind of railed against that, you know, a long time ago. And I kind of took that to heart. I think most people use too much water in their stocks, period. Well, when you're trying to make a living, so in it, it's just a different scenario. I mean, I don't really care whether my batch of stock costs $12 or 14, but I mean, if you're in business, that can
+
+[39:51] be, if it's been making money and losing it. I think it's exactly right I think it's, but the funny thing is, when people at, people at home who can afford to do it that way, like they're emulating the restaurant practice, not necessarily best practice, you
+
+[40:03] know? Well, it's just, that's just because it's just the most common idea out there, but you've, you've certainly helped me out on a bunch. Well, thanks very much. And then completely different question. I absolutely love sweet potato fries. My wife doesn't like the texture I get, and that they're just a little too limp. Is there some little magic powder from modernist pantry that would at least help that problem? You know, I've never, I've never had the luck on the surface of the sweet potato. You're talking about the surface or the interior. I've never had luck on the surface. I've gotten the interior nice, but I've never had that luck on the surface. Well, I would, I would try anything that even might get my wife to eat them because they've been a 100 times better for eating regular
+
+[40:49] french fries in terms of vitamins, if not calories. Well, you know, the only way I've ever done it where I thought it was like really good. I cheated and I battered them. Okay. You know what I mean? And then if you do, like a light batter on them, you can get them. crunchy is all get out and then have the sweet potato on the inside. So you're doing so you're doing like egg white and cornstarch? Uh, I know, I didn't do. I, you know, last time I did it, I did it in wait, everyone's going to hate me now. I did it in too thick, but usually I only do one kind of batter. So, and I'm not a fan of like really like kind of light stuff most of the time. So I do what I do for fried chicken, which is like a flower-based, like, you know, pretty hardcore, crunchy. Flour and buttermilk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I'm not saying you should do that. I'm just saying that, you know, that's that's what I do, but some sort of whatever your favorite crispy coating is. I'm not a fan. I'm again, I'm going to get. going to get nuked on this. I am not a fan of tempura batters. I think that I've had what is supposed to be very good tempura that other people say was
+
+[41:49] good, and to me, it's not as, I understand that everyone loves it. It's just not what I love. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you just like something or don't. That's right. I mean, I prefer a harder, harder texture, and I think tempura also goes off too quickly, especially on something high moisture, like a sweet potato
+
+[42:08] fry. One of the problems with sweet potato fries is, it's virtually impossible with that high sugar content to get that crunchy kind of
+
+[42:16] coating, because you're not lacquering it. Like when people make sweet french fries that are like shatter on the outside, sometimes they're sweet and they are almost like lacquers from the outside. But it's so hard because of the way moisture absorption goes into the crust to get that crust to stay normal on just a sweet potato fry. I would love to hear somebody else's technique of doing it. But I bet you could do it with just, you know, a fairly good starched dusting, like maybe Chris Coat or something like that without going full batter. All right, Chris Code, it's cold. Yeah, Chris Coke, you can give that a try. I mean, hopefully someone will tweet me into the my Twitter account and say what they do to make their sweet potato fries crunchy. But I'm not, like, a lot of people out there who like sweet potato fries, they like them even though they're not crunchy, but it sounds like you're, you know, your wife wants them crunchy, right? Well, yes, she's just, she's just very specific about texture of a lot of things and sweet potato fries just don't work
+
+[43:06] for her. Yeah, yeah. At least I'm having a couple making one that works for her. Yeah, I'm sure you'll get it. I mean, like, just mean, like, yeah, I mean, I like them, but, you know, I fry them hard the same way that I do deep fried okra, which is pretty hard crust, so, you know, but you have to like that sort of thing. Oh, I mean, I just like fried food, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, fried fried, frying is a good way of cooking. That's the way it should be. Oh, but anyway. But yeah, those are, those are my 3 for the day. All right, well, listen, tweet us in and let us know how it worked out, all right? you very much. All right, thanks. Can Canningberg wrote in, basically calling us, calling not you because me,
+
+[43:43] Wussy, said, hi, Nastasia, Dave, enjoyed the Thanksgiving show. Dave is cutting corny corners with his turkey, it seems to me. If mom and stepdad are docs and Dave has access to equipment, my suggestion, boning the
+
+[43:54] turkey laparoscopically, uh, like, like, uh, they don't let me, my mom wouldn't even give me a prescription for quinine to make
+
+[44:02] drinks. I have to pay like retail price for my quinine sulfate. So you know, if they don't they don't steal stuff. They too honest these guys. Anyway, I was in New York City and planned to have a drink at Booker and Dax and be an audience at one of your show, but instead found myself holed up in Park Slope for the duration of Hurricane
+
+[44:15] Sandy another time. Happy Thanksgiving, hanging bird. So by the way, the turkey was delicious, delicious. Did I talk about this already? Have we already had a show since Thanksgiving? Turkey was really good. It was, I think, the best no tech turkey I've ever done, but and anyone can do it. So, like, to recap what I did, took the turkey. It was a £23 turkey, I inside out boned it. So I ripped all of the I ripped all the bones out from inside without cutting the skin in any way. Uh, then, uh, I had my mom make, and then I brined it. Now, one of the advantages of boning it, before you brine it, is that you can fold the turkey up into a small little package and put it even a £23 turkey in a fairly small amount of brine.
+
+[44:55] So I put that in a brine for a couple of hours. You know, my typical brine, which is no measurement. It's make it taste salty like the ocean, and then add enough sugar until you can just barely taste the sweetness. Uh, uh, my mom started making the stuffing. She put the stuffing into the oven covered, so it wouldn't lose its moisture. We pull the turkey out after a little bit. Let it dry, form a pellicle on the skin so that it was nice and tacky. You know, got the inside all rinsed out. And remember, when I inside out boned it, what I took out all of the internal bones and I took out the thigh bone on both sides, I left the last arm bone in and I left the wing joint or last leg bone in, rather, the drumstick
+
+[45:33] bone, and I left the wing bones in for a little bit of structure. Then I took the stuffing out when it was like scalding hot, like, you know, of the full oven
+
+[45:42] temperature, and then jammed the 1st thing I jammed was I jammed it into the thighs, so it started cooking the thighs,
+
+[45:48] right? And now we're cooking from the inside out and then jammed it in, made it look like a turkey again. And now the advantage of the hot stuff thing is, I'm not going to poison anyone and it's going to speed the cooking and it's going to cook the parts that I boned out like the thigh very quickly in the same fashion that it would the other breast meat because it's getting hot stuff in contact where you wouldn't normally get it right
+
+[46:07] away. Threw the whole thing into a 450 degree oven, I think, or 400 or something for like an hour and a half , 2 hours. Whoa, butter and salt on the thing. Thing was good turkey. Good turkey. anyway. So Ken, even though I was cutting corners, it was good turkey. Uh, and I think I might do it again that way, it's so much easier than the, than the aluminum uh, than the aluminum skeleton. Other noastasia likes to see me. more traditional. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess it is more traditional. I guess anything is more traditional than what I'm doing. And all the stuffing has that awesome flavor from being in the turkey.
+
+[46:41] And, well, all inside out boning also has the advantage, which everyone should take advantage of, of now you have all the bones,
+
+[46:48] which while it's, while it's, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, brining and cooking, you can make a turkey stock right
+
+[46:53] away. So then you can get your gravy base done, and then you can take and deglaze the pan that a turkey comes in. Remember, like everyone, I hate, I hate it when I see a turkey in a roasting pan, and the sides of the pan are coming up over the side of the turkey, and I know that the underside of that turkey is that like nasty, blonde, like,
+
+[47:12] flabby. You what I'm talking about, stuff? Do you hate that? I lift, lift your turkey up, people. lift up, be proud of your turkey. Lift it above the, the, the rim of the pen. anyway. And so we got the gravy and the gravy was done, good. bueno bueno. So it's all around a good, a good, a good thing. It's all good. Um, so, uh, um, on pressure cookers again. Tom Fisher wrote in and said, hope you enjoyed your Thanksgivings. I'm looking into getting a coon recon pressure cooker and was surprised at the number of sizes available in the small difference in price. Is there any reason not to just buy the 8.5 quart stock pop instead go with the smaller units? We went over that last week. Uh, you know, a similar thing. I don't think it was Tom, though. No, just get the 8.5 court. It's good. See, how you like that, Stas, for a short freaking answer. You like that? Still going on, though. What do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah, of course I'm still talking. What? You're the next question. Okay. Okay, Marty from Eagle Rock writes in Dave at all. First, I think Katamaro Tempura, which is like an ongoing thing we're talking about. The thing that solidifies oil in Japan. Uh, Ketamata temputo is, uh, I don't know how you actually pronounce it, is derived from castor oil. I think that's how you pronounce it, though, because it's like tempo or like tempo. Anyway, at least that's what the ingredients page from S.E. Johnson translates to. And then there's the Thai caster oil group, whose primary product is cooking oil solidifier. The internet does not lie. Um, And I've been looking up uh, castor oil, and I'm trying to figure out what the heck is in this stuff. And I got another person saying castor oil in on my Twitter account. Uh, I think it was uh, clefs. Anyway, so the The thing is, I still can't figure out what the hell it is. So if you take castor oil, it's like semi-food gray, but it tastes bad. It comes from the castor plant, which if you don't process it right, can poison you with ricin, which is like a toxin. anyway. But the if you hydrogenate it, it becomes a castor wax and castor wax has a very high melting point. And I think that you can use, it's a castor wax, it's a cylinder fire for the oil because you do it in hot, and then when it sets, it sets solid. It's used to harden underarm deodorant. Yeah, so it's like hard, like a carnugal wax. But I can't really figure out what's going on. But anyway, Marty's 2nd question is, are there any well, 1st question, 2nd comment. Are there any consumer level reusable products out there for low temperature cooking? Whenever I cook stuff, I always end up with a pile of plastic freezer bags. I'd love to experiment more, but my inner hippie keeps chastising me so I don't. You know, this is really an issue. There are some bags out there. Um, and you can reuse them, but it's just so gross that no one does it. You know what I mean? It's just, it's just nasty. Uh, you know, I'd like to say that there's some sort of like, you know, paper like on poppyote thing that you could do. But I just don't know that it's the case. And like they, the bags just tend to degrade over time. I haven't used any of the thicker. There are a couple people out there who are making very thick bags that are the equivalent of, you remember those
+
+[50:06] noustache? Remember those pencil cases you get when you were a kid? That was like, yeah, that were made out of vinyl. These aren't made out of vinyl because it's gross, but I haven't had time to really look into them, but it's really something I'd like to put out to anyone who's listening to the show to think about maybe some alternative like that that doesn't require a constant source of new
+
+[50:23] bags. I mean, obviously there is cooking in broth and cooking in stock, low temperature by using the actual circulator to circulate the products. There's cooking in jars, but it's just not, it's not the same. In other words, there's lots of things you can do, but it's just not the exact same thing. Like you can pack a jar 100% full with product, screw it down, and throw it into a bath, and it'll work, but it's not the same. It's just not the same as doing it in a bag. You know what I mean? I don't know of a good solution. But I would love to hear anyone's good solution. By the way, Castor Bean Oil, hydrogenate, Castor Bean, not only used to solidify, but another caster, uh, oil product, zinc, uh,
+
+[51:03] Ricinulate is the, is the, is the anti-stink in uh, antipersprints. I don't know why it absorbs, it absorbs the stink, but apparently, apparently it do. Okay, are we going to get kicked off the air so now? Oh my god. And I have so many questions. I have not gotten to. Uh, Charlie Chang. I know I have some questions on Twitter. I'm gonna have to get those next time, I guess. Joel, we did not get a text back from McGee, right? Let me check. See if you got a text back from Harold. We got a text back from Harold. Then we'll run an extra 30 seconds or something. Did we get one? Anyway. I also have a question that I'd like to spend more time on from stand below, so we'll get that next time or maybe get it on the Twitter, all about different kind of geling
+
+[51:49] compounds, and interested in making vegetarian gummy bears using geland, and there actually is a brand new patent on that. We'll have to get into that next time. One thing I will shout out, you know, I'm constantly amazed at the amazing information that's available on the FAO's website, which is the food and agricultural organization of the UN, and they have so many crazy publications out there on like how to grow shrimp in
+
+[52:11] Thailand. Like it's crazy. You can go on there and I just, I spent probably, I don't know, stupidly, probably spent 2.5 hours last night when I should have been sleeping, reading like the
+
+[52:22] FAO's documents on seaweed production. It's not even that it's like super scintillating. You know, it's not like anyone else here would, like, be like, oh, bam, it's awesome, but, like, I can't help free information like that. You know what I mean? Isn't that weird? Anyway. So we did not get it in, right? Nope, no answer. Yeah, no answer from the McGee. All right. He's sleeping. I know. The poor guy's sleeping. He's in what's it called? He's in the California. Uh, so, uh, Joel wrote in and said, uh, just listen to the podcast, you made my uh, effing holiday. Thanks for playing my song ever since I picked up a copy of On Food and Cooking 9 years ago. I become obsessed with a reasoning for everything I do in the kitchen. As a cook, I would tick off my chefs because I explained why their white chocolate ganache wasn't
+
+[53:05] working or how starch types different, short grain rice and works better in putting because they don't retrograde like long grain rice does. like, you know, most long grain. Obviously, Thai black sticky is, is, uh, anyway, whatever. Now, running a kitchen myself. I make sure that all my cooks question everything they do. I teach methods, not recipes. I promote discovery, not conservative French technique, although I do like that stuff. When I went to Danielle a bunch of years ago and they presented me with like the whole fish and crust, even though it's overcooked, I was like, I love
+
+[53:31] it. I just, because I love, you know, it felt like, you know, felt like old school. anyway. We listen to the podcast during prep crew gets into it. Uh, HRN is seriously awesome. Cooking issue is awesome. Keep it up. Joel, thank you, Joel. We got a call or call or you're on the air. Dave Arnold. What's up? This Jeremiah Bullfrog, how are you, sir? I'm doing awesome. How's Miami? Good man. Nice. Hot and sunny like we like it. I got a burning question for you. All right, what's up? I'm trying to emulsify powdered spices into
+
+[54:05] brine. Is there a trick to uh, getting it, keeping it from separating? Uh, okay. Like how thick is the brine allowed to be? I mean, the thing is, I don't know that it's gonna, I mean, you could do like the typical thing. I mean, emulsive, you're not really emulsifying the spice. You're you're actually stabilizing it. So like the classic thing would be to hit it with some Xanthan, but then it's going to be kind of snotty. You know what I mean? Right. Think like if we're doing pickled cauliflower? Like half sour style in like a 5% brine. Oh, Brian, not like Brian. Brian like serving brine. I got you. Uh, yeah. So, I mean, you could do a, like a gel, like a light gel and fluid gel, depending on the salt level. The problem with brine's is the salt level is so high. Like, I've had no luck making fluid gels with kimchi liquid because it's just, it's just
+
+[54:58] too, it's just too strong. You know what I mean? So it might not be able to do like Jalen, whereas Xanthan woodwork and something like that, which is why they do it in salad dressing, but like really freaking light amount of Xanthan. I've done a bunch of tests with just very, very, very light amount of Xanthan. Uh, you know, like less than a quarter of a percent or at a quarter, you know, one quarter, one% or less less. break out the uh break out the drug dealer scale and and just keep it real light. Yeah, and let it hydrate for a good, like, 20, 30 minutes before
+
+[55:29] you, uh, make, add, add, you know, add anything more to it so that you make sure it's it. You want to get, there's a, there's a point at which you can stop it from settling for, let's
+
+[55:39] say, like 30 minutes. You know what I mean? So, which is more than enough for service. Are you doing it for a shelf or for service? Um, I mean, we're going to put it up as a preserve and then, you know, 7 to 10 days, pull it
+
+[55:52] out and use it. Right. So, but then, like, just like a couple of quick, like, back and forth and it'll, it'll come back. Do you know what I mean? Right. You think I should hit it in the, um, in the Vita Prep? Yeah, you should definitely hit in the VitaPrep and you should do it. Are they are they lactic fermented things or are they... Yeah, super, super lactic. Oh, you see, you might have problems because, uh, there's like some lactic acid bacteria can ferment Xanthan, but I don't know. Uh, you might have to add it afterwards, like to the brine. I might have to think about it. I never tried to stabilize a like a pickle brine. Uh, I mean, salad dressings I've done all day, every day, and the brine,
+
+[56:31] because I don't have to think about it. But I would try it like a, I would try a low amount of Xanthan. I would pull the brine out, add the xanthan to it, and then add the brine back and stir it rather than doing it beforehand because once it's really fermented out, It's not going to keep fermenting because they've, you know, that they've done their best and the acidity is already low, so it's not going to get a lot more, you know, sour, especially if it's already gone. And so then, uh, I think the Xanthan will be okay at that point. Whereas if you do it earlier, you might run into. I don't know if those bacteria eats anything, but I know some do. Right. Also on the same token. We're doing, um, we're doing pressed juices, and I was wondering, what are like some commercial tricks to keep the juice from, you know, separating when we bottle it up. Oh, you because you want it to be, you want it to stay home. Again, like those guys usually add some form of peck den. So, uh, you know, to things like that to stabilize it. You can add other things, but I think they usually use some form of pectin to stabilize it.
+
+[57:29] Like they add like a functionalized pectin. I don't have the pectin stuff in my head. Piper does. shoot me a, like, shoot a, shoot it to the, to the cooking issues, Twitter, and I'll force Piper to write down what it is that you're supposed to use. Cool. And then, do you think, like, um, ultras ultrasonic homogenizer would be cool for that too? I don't know, man, because the thing about it is, is that, like, yeah, that'll, that'll make things last longer, but break, by breaking down the particles, but they, they're not so good at breaking down like certain solid sizes, so it depends on what's floating in there.
+
+[57:57] Like I've had good luck doing emulsions with that, like making milks with it. Like, you know, like duck fat into duck stock and making like a milky duck thing, but I haven't had
+
+[58:07] a lot of luck just like making a juice finer. you know what I mean? But, I mean, your results may vary, like, like everything else, like when you're experimenting with a zillion things, like you, if you have like early success with one thing or if you really love something, then you keep working at it till you get it right.
+
+[58:22] if you don't, you just don't follow down that line. So like I never got into like, you know, hitting seawater with my ultrasonic homogenizer to see what happened.
+
+[58:31] You know what I mean? or anything like that. And I remained unconvinced. Do you have one? No, I don't, but, you know, give me a reason to go get one and... Well, next time you're in the city, stop by to stop by and I'll let you use
+
+[58:44] mine and see what you think about it. Awesome. Thank you, Dave Arnold. All right, brother. All right, take it easy. on the way out, I got one more thing on the way out. Don't you want me to don't you want me to read from Brett Adams? All right. Jack, do I got like 2 minutes? I got 2 minutes? Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it. Okay. Listen, Brett, like, I'm going to answer your question next week on spices and, you know, why you dry roast spices because it requires a longer answer, but I'm going to read the other thing you said about how, like,
+
+[59:10] sometimes this makes us happy. This is feedback that I like. But the question for the radio show, and a quick story to recount that all of you, specifically Dave, may appreciate. Regarding the latter, I 1st became aware of Dave and cooking issues a few years ago when I was searching online for further information on a tortilla making that wasn't fully covered in a Diana Kennedy
+
+[59:27] cookbook, who was a great cookbook writer. Uh, uh, I stumbled on Day's blog, uh, post on Nixstimilization, learned a ton and have been a regular listener ever since. you. I've had a few delicious cocktails at Booker Index last time I was in New York. One particular part of the post that stood out to me was how the process of nextimilization releases bound niacin and mature corn,
+
+[59:44] uh, which is why when Europeans took it but didn't take over the nextimilization, they got pelagra. Uh, anyway, um, okay. I later recounted this to my roommate who was both a nurse and an avid home cook. This last summer, this roommate spent 3 months at a refugee camp in South Sudan volunteering for doctors without borders. One day he was eating lunch with the man in the charge of the food rations for the camp of 50,000 plus people. And the rations guy brought up that they were likely going to have to switch the rations from
+
+[1:00:09] sorghum, which, you know, I've never experimented with a lot. Anyway, to maze. My roommate, remembering what I had told him, asked if he had heard of Nixonization, specifically about its ability to release digestible niacin, which, as I'm sure you can guess, is a big deal in a refugee camp.
+
+[1:00:23] The director had never heard of it, but was intrigued, went away to do some research, and later told my roommate that they had begun learning to niximalize the corn for the rations. My roommate left shortly thereafter, so I have no idea if the full switch to
+
+[1:00:35] maze was made, but I think it's pretty cool that your research in a kitchen in New York, uh, through somewhat random events could possibly have a very significant uh, positive impact on the other side of the world. Thought you'd like to hear that. I do like to hear that, Brett, but in fact, uh, it's your, uh, to your paying attention to it. I paid attention to it when someone else said it, and you paid attention to it when I said it, so
+
+[1:00:54] it's, it's you paying attention to it and remembering it, and that's how all good things are
+
+[1:00:59] learned, and all good things are transmitted by people paying attention, tucking away
+
+[1:01:03] information and tasting their head, and making the world a better place, cooking issues.
+
+[1:01:13] I'll see you in... Special shout out to Plexophonic, who's submitted theme song is not able to be used for legal reasons. This is I'll See You in My Dreams by Plexophonic. You've been listening to cooking issues. Still, I feel the thrill of your drums. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.
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+[0:00] Today's episode has been brought to you by Roberta's, located at 261
+
+[0:04] Moore Street in beautiful Bushwick, Brooklyn, for more information, visit www.roberta's pizza.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Cooking issues!
+
+[0:50] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to
+
+[1:05] 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network in the backup. Roberta's Pizzawia in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling your questions live to 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. Joined as usual with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez. And we're jackless today, right, Joe? in Puerto Rico. Jackson, Puerto Rico. What you doing in Puerto Rico? Vacation. Yeah, hanging out with his dad. Really? Yeah, right? Yeah? Wait, like, just like, I mean, do they have like family there? Are they just hanging in Puerto Rico? Apparently Jack took the week off and then his dad's like, just come to Puerto Rico with me. Sounds a little fishy. Yeah, sounds like it, you know? But anyway, I hope they bring back some good rum. I like Puerto Rican rum. You like Puerto Rican rum, Joe? You like Puerto Rican rum? Oh definitely. Nastasia doesn't care because she's not listening. I'm actually trying to help Joe out, so... Snippiness here,
+
+[1:51] snippiness people? This is what I deal with on a regular band. like constant undercurrents of snippiness, constant undercurrents of snippiness. Do you like Puerto Rican rum? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Can you name a Puerto Rican one? No. Okay. Ron Abuelo. Okay. No, wait, no. Wait, it's Ron Abuelo? that the Puerto Rican one? No, I gotta look it up. Now I've gotten all confused. By the way, a horrifying news. I was researching today. Champagne consumption down worldwide 5% this year so far. You believe that? That is crazy. I mean, like, I figured Nastasia and I have made up for at least that 5% drop just us, just us alone. I mean, champagne. I mean, not the champagne industry need the push. Do you in the French drink half of the champagne in the world, so I'm told? I mean, I mean, it's from there. I mean, it makes sense. I bet you we drink well over half the world, you know, Zinfandel stuff. Yeah, you know? And I'm not just talking like white. I talking reels info, though. well, well over half. You go there, the French, I have no idea what you're talking about when you mentioned him. At least I used to. been to France in a number of years. But anyway, my point is, is that champagne is one of the few drinks. This is my push for champagne. This show's not brought to you by champagne. Is it Joe who's bringing this show to us today? That would be Roberta's Pizza. Roberta Pizzeria is bringing us the show today? sure are. And Roberta serves champagne, do they not? Yeah, I believe so. I think we got a bottle of Prosecco for the 100th episode, right? All right. Yes. Yeah, we might have. Look, I like Prosecco Fine, but I love champagne. I love champagne, right? Any sort of sparkling wine. This is kind of the one of the very few things that Nastasia and I can agree on is love of sparkling wines, but maybe this show is
+
+[3:24] part in part brought to you by champagne, since they sell Roberta's pizzeria champagne, go drink it. It's one of the few drinks that is kind of always apropos, right? Right. You know, graduation, do you want? Champagne. Like around dinner time? What about after dinner? Champagne. At a brunch? champagne. Cocktail thing after work? Got your bar champagne. Any bar, really, right? Champagne. It's not a crack against, you know, our cocktails. It's just you'd rather just have the champagne. A sad occasion. You need cheering up. Champagne. Yeah. So very few situations where champagne is not,
+
+[4:00] see, people make a mistake. And they only drink it around the New Year's time as though you need to be celebrating something to drink champagne. And that's just not the case. Champagne is always delicious. Very few things I don't like. I like, look, I will not have champagne with my bagels and locks. It's disgusting. I do not like champagne with cured meats. In fact, I love them both quite dearly. They are 2 of the things that are closest to my heart, but all you need is a little bite of bread in between, and you're okay. So you, what happens is someone serves me a glass of champagne. and a platter of cured meats. Typically what I will do is I will take a couple sips of the champagne. I will then have a bite of bread. I will then eat the entirety of the platter of cured meats in, you know, depending on the side. I can I can eat upwards of uh, a quarter of a pound of prosciutto every 2 minutes in that range, right? Finish it, have a couple of bites of bread and then go back to the champagne. I think that's the way you should do it. But this is not only champagne. I also really enjoy a good cava. Do you like kava? cava is actually my, when I buy, I buy cava because it's actually inexpensive. But if somebody else is buying, I drink champagne. Yes. Actually, I owe a mustache, a bottle of champagne. No, just good wine, I think. the champagne's good. You don't like champagne, you wanted red wine instead? No. No champagne would be good. Well, what was it? you didn't know this, you thought the singer of Cat in the cradle was Cat Stevens. And it's not. some other guy. Anyway. Okay. was it? can't remember. Somebody look it up. Okay. Josh Whitlam writes in from Somerset. By the way, Somerset, land of apple cider and cheddar. Do you know that? Land of apple cider and cheddar. Anyway, it's kind of like where all that comes from. Anyway, he writes in. the 1st comment we've gotten from the UK on liquid on the liquid nitrogen. The unfortunate thing happened with the nitrogen with the teenager who lost her stomach. Anyway, maybe something more discussed on the next show. I know, David, I talked about it on the last one. Crazy. What one does, uh, wait, say. What does one do to stop a party or group of people who clearly know nothing about the stuff they are trying to ban? I'm just talking about the liquid nitrogen, attempted ban liquid nitrogen. People are talking about putting a ban on something that resulted in a horrific accident once. They're so worried about it, then they should surely take the surely best initial steps would be to install a certification system that qualifies the staff to use
+
+[6:10] LN, just like food safety, et cetera. The fault is clearly with the bar, and a lack of incorrect training about LN, and I'm sure if they know
+
+[6:17] it and that we do everything to prevent it, a repeat of that accident in the future. Why isn't there a ban on cigarettes, the dangers are clearly spelled out to us, that we still make our own choice about whether to smoke it or not, rant
+
+[6:26] over, love the show, Joss Whitlam, Somerset. Okay, okay. Josh, I agree with you in vast majority of it, except for this one thing. And the big issue here. And this is the reason why this incident in the UK, where this teenager lost their stomach after consuming liquid nitrogen, which
+
+[6:43] is ridiculous, no one should ever serve liquid nitrogen to someone, but the difference between that and the incident that happened in Germany several years ago where a cook brought home liquid nitrogen and blew themselves to pieces, you know, blew his hands off and damaged his leg and was put in a coma and said, is that in this case, the accident happened to a
+
+[7:02] customer and the customer wasn't assuming, wasn't necessarily assuming any extra risks, unlike, unlike cigarettes. Now, um, as far as the actual practitioners are concerned, assuming that they know all the risks, then, I think you're absolutely right in your point, but the, the issue is, it is
+
+[7:17] true, you should, you should always take the utmost care to ensure that your customers are not exposed to any extra
+
+[7:23] risk that they don't know about, right? I mean, and so that's that's always the argument of why you need to put a label on the bottom of your menu that you're consuming something that's raw or
+
+[7:33] undercooked. It's only if they don't have an expectation
+
+[7:37] of otherness. So when you go to a sushi restaurant, right? It's assumed you're eating raw fish and that you realize that there's certain inherent dangers, or that if you order a steak rare, that there are certain inherent dangers,
+
+[7:48] although not much. But anyway, and so the question is here is the customer taking on a risk of which they aren't aware. But in the large part, I agree with you. Okay. And K. Ingber, longtime listener, friend of the show, wrote in and said he enjoyed the CNN broadcast. you. I think they're going to re-air that guy that re-air that broadcast as sometime right before, right before the Christmas, right before the Christmas. Said I was serious and fun in the right proportion. I usually have it exactly opposite. I'm usually ridiculous and serious in the exact opposite proportion of
+
+[8:18] what's of what's reasonable. Okay. Uh, number three. Ryan Santos wrote in and said an industry friend of mine just got an ultra low freezer. It currently runs around -118 degrees Fahrenheit. I've never had something like this at my disposal. I'm curious if there are any cool techniques or applications with it. Thanks, Ryan. Okay, I did a little conversion there, and minus 118 degrees Fahrenheit is roughly -83 Celsius. Now, what you're looking at here is you're in the range of an ultra low freezer, a super freezer. And, um, here's the big here's the big deal. Now, these freezers, which are used in labs, but also in the storage of meats. Store something at what I've heard in the industry called below the eutectic point or below the glass transition, temperature of the foods that are involved. Now let me explain what that means. 1st of all, you have to get in your mind, there's 2 there's 2 separate things that happen when something is freezing,
+
+[9:13] right? One, or 2 separate things you have to worry about. One is the storage temperature at which you're keeping an item. right? And the other is the rate at which something freezes. Now, these ultra low temperature freezers don't necessarily freeze things that much faster, then you
+
+[9:31] can freeze it using a regular freezer, right? For fast freezing. You need a blast freezer or a fluid bed freezer or emerging directly in a cryogenic
+
+[9:41] liquid, like liquid nitrogen or something of this nature. Right? Now, the reason that's important is, is that if you freeze something slowly, right? As you're freezing, large ice crystals grow, large ice crystals themselves can be damaging. So you have very a small number of ice crystal nucleation sites and they form relatively small number of relatively large ice crystals.
+
+[10:03] More importantly, those ice crystals are being formed by
+
+[10:07] water leaving typically, leaving the cell matrix or the food that you're freezing, dehydrating the cells, just like you were dehydrating them, and forming crystals in between the
+
+[10:17] cell in between the cells of the meat. So you're increasing the amount of moisture. It's in between the cells. You're dehydrating the cells, concentrating bad things that can go on, and causing large crystals that can puncture the cell membrane, which all means that when it thaws,
+
+[10:30] it will leak out. It will leak out its fluids and you'll have drip loss and the normal things that you associate with damage due to slow
+
+[10:38] freezing. If you freeze extremely rapidly. One, you get small ice crystals, you get a bunch of ice crystals. And if you freeze quickly enough, you can get ice crystals on the insides of the cells. And so you don't have as much dehydration of the cells and the structure of the meat or produce remains intact. And so that's what fast freezing can do for you. Now. Here's the other thing. A lot of times people quote the freezing temperature of a
+
+[11:03] food and food doesn't, in fact, have a one single freezing temperature. What happens is, is as you start approaching the initial freezing point of a food, Water will start to pure water will start to crystallize in the thing. At a certain point, you're going to reach a situation where, let's
+
+[11:20] say, let's make this very simple. Let's just say we have salt water, all right? So it's not food anymore. salt and water. If you have just salt, sodium, chloride, and water, what happens is as you chill it, their ice crystals will start to form. And as ice crystals form, what you're left with is more concentrated salt water solution. That concentrated salt water solution has a lower freezing point. So the temperature goes down a little more, and then you have an even more concentrated, and it goes down and
+
+[11:45] down and down until you reach the point where salt can no longer become more concentrated in the
+
+[11:51] liquid. You've reached what's called the eutectic point. It's a point at which that temperature is the lowest that system can get and still have them remain together. At which point you freeze out solid water and sodium chloride crystals,
+
+[12:04] right? So it's frozen out solid. That's the eutectic point. In real food. There are a bunch of little eutectic points where things freeze out, right? Once you get below, and any point during that freezing curve, there's still some liquid water in there, right?
+
+[12:19] And what that means is, is that as temperature fluctuates in a freezer, that liquid water will melt and recrystallize as the temperature fluctuates.
+
+[12:27] And so ice crystals will tend to grow over time and make your food crappier
+
+[12:31] over time. So there's quality loss there. Additionally, that water that's in there is super concentrated with regard to enzymes,
+
+[12:39] acids, salts, and all those things that can carry on chemical reactions. So even though temperature is a lot lower. So the chemical reaction rates are a lot slower. The concentrations are increased a huge amount. And so awful reactions can take place in your freezer. Once you get below the eutectic point of the last thing that's going to freeze out, they're still actually what's called bound, unfreezable water. And that unfreezable water is the unfreezable water that's next to things like
+
+[13:05] hydrocoloids next to things like protein. And the reaction between the water molecules that are right at the surface of those
+
+[13:12] things, and those molecules themselves prevent the water from actually becoming a part of the crystal ice
+
+[13:17] lattice that's around them, and so you have unfrozen water even below the last eutectic point,
+
+[13:22] right? So the next thing you hit there is called the glass phase. And when you hit the glass phase, which is that low temperature there, everything stops moving around. Basic. I mean, it moves, it bounces from a thermal standpoint, like the molecules are moving around. But the water molecules stop moving physically and stop undergoing chemical
+
+[13:39] reactions for all intents and purposes at that point. The product is stable. Enzymatic reactions are stopped. Oxidation reactions are stopped. All the reactions in it that are related to food quality. Stop. Ice crystal growth and uh, uh, and remelting and changing, stop. So once you freeze something fast and accurately using a different technique other than that low temperature freezer, you put it in that low temperature freezer and it stays good almost indefinitely. It basically doesn't move in quality. And Mark Ladner, Del Posto, has one. He freaking loves it. I mean, he loves it. He originally got it, I think, because they were buying super frozen tuna. It's called Super Frozen. They were buying super frozen tuna, and that stuff stayed like super primo in there. I mean, like no oxidation, no nothing. It was beautiful, beautiful stuff. And so he used it for that, but he's also used it for to store really, really fragile, I think, things like mushrooms. I think things like truffles in a much better state than they could be stored any other way. So it's an awesome find. And it's one of those things that I wish I had. Harold on the phone. Okay, so listen, Joel, we have calling in for you to read an excerpt on the
+
+[14:49] Myard reactions from his most important book on food and cooking live from California, Harold McGee. Hey, Dave. Hey, how you doing? Hi, Harold. So this was a specific request. The person, Joel, who wrote one of our theme songs that we use here on the show. As a thank you for writing the theme song, wanted you to come on air live and read a section from
+
+[15:15] on food and cooking. on my art reactions. Yes. So you prepared to do this? I am. I have a question, though, because that paragraph does refer to the previous paragraph on caramelization, should I just allude
+
+[15:31] to caramelization, or should I start there? Hmm. Hmm. The more the better. I think the more the better, I think. I think just go for it. This is, by the way, the 1st reading we've ever had on, so, you know, give it some feeling, Harold. This is like our 1st reading ever. I'm very excited. Well, you know, it's a 1st for me too. So I'm a little nervous. I'm not sure I'm going to do this. I'll give it a shot. All right, beautiful. All right. caramelization. The simplest browning reaction is the caramelization of sugar, and it's not simple at all. When we heat plain table sugar, essentially just molecules of sucrose,
+
+[16:10] it 1st melts into a thick syrup, then slowly changes color, becoming light
+
+[16:15] yellow, and progressively deepening to a dark brown. At the same time, its
+
+[16:21] flavor, initially sweet and odorless, develops acidity, some
+
+[16:27] bitterness and a rich aroma. The chemical reactions involved in this transformation are many, and they result in the formation of
+
+[16:35] 100s of different reaction products, among them separate organic acids, sweet and bitter derivatives, many fragrant volatile
+
+[16:44] molecules, and brown blurred polymers. It's a remarkable change, and a fortunate one. And the beats to the pleasures of many candy and other sweets. Even more fortunate and complex are the reactions responsible for the
+
+[17:00] cook and flavor of bread crusts, chocolate, coffee beans, dark beers, and roasted
+
+[17:08] meat, all foods that are not primarily sugar. These are one of the Maillard reactions after Louis Camille Maillard, a function, who discovered and described them around 1910. The sequence begins with the reaction of a carbon molecule, and an amino acid, an unstable intermediate structure is formed, and
+
+[17:32] the spent undergoes further changes, producing 100s of different byproducts. Again, a brown coloration and full intense flavor result. Myard reactions are more complex and meaty than caramelized flavors, because the involvement of amino acids adds nitrogen and sulfur atoms to the mix of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and produces new
+
+[17:57] families, molecules and new aromatic dimensions. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Nice. Nice. Nastasia's got her happy face on. which is good. How you doing over there, Harold? I hear you're coming to the Museum of Food and Drink fundraiser. Yes, yeah, I'm going to fly out to the east coast this coming weekend and we'll be sticking around for about 10 days. So yeah, we glad about that timing. Actually, it's not a fundraiser. And being corrected. It's just a thank you for people that already signed up for membership. But or who have been involved in the past. We're excited. So, wait, can you, do you have a second? You want to talk about this recent stuff on cooking sugar
+
+[18:40] crystals or do you have a 2nd or no? I've got a couple of minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, the passage I just read about caramelization, uh, has been somewhat superseded. Uh, because in that paragraph. I say, you know, when you make caramel, what you do is you heat sucrose crystals, which are solid, until they melt, and then, uh, the melted sugars, uh, start to undergo these other reactions, which turn them
+
+[19:08] brown and um, develop other flavors and so on. And that's, that's still basically true, but, uh, very interestingly, uh, I think it was 2010 that these 1st results came out. A carbohydrate chemist at, was trying to figure out why it is that nobody's free on the precise melting point of sucrose, which is crazy, you know, table sugar is such ordinary familiar
+
+[19:37] stuff, it's used in so many different things. It's the solid. It's pure. And so it should have a very well-defined melting point. And yet when you look in the literature, there are dozens of different melting points and they're kind of in a range,
+
+[19:52] but, uh, you know, not not precise. And she wanted to know why it is that, uh, uh, melting point of sugar was so hard to measure. What she discovered was that technically speaking, sugar doesn't have a melting point.
+
+[20:06] Which is amazing. Uh, that is that, um, if you heat sugar and you melt it. And you've then uh, uh, let it solidify again and then try to melt it again. The melting point that you get the 2nd time around is lower. Uh, that is, it takes less heat to melt the sugar after it's been melted once, and so on and so on. So the more often you melt it, the lower the the melting temperature becomes. Unlike, for example, water, where, you know, the melting point is 32 degrees Fahrenheit and it doesn't change. And so what she discovered was that every time you heat sucrose, and that includes keeping it at room temperature, it's actually degenerating.
+
+[20:52] It's actually degrading. So the suprose molecules are slowly breaking apart into 1st its constituent parts, which are one molecule of glucose, one molecule of
+
+[21:04] fructose, and then those sugars break down into other things.
+
+[21:09] And what you discovered is that process is happening at a significant rate, even at room temperature, and
+
+[21:15] certainly if you heat it up enough to melt it, you're accelerating that, and that means that what you end up with is, uh, a block of table sugar that, in fact,
+
+[21:25] is, uh, no longer pure, and gets progressively less pure, the more often you do it.
+
+[21:32] Uh, and so I looked at that and I thought, that's really interesting. I wonder if I could, uh, caramelize sugar, solid sugar just by keeping it at a, you know, moderately out, for hours. And so I put some sugar crystals in the oven at about, uh, I don't know,
+
+[21:50] 220, something like that, uh, which is way below the melting point, those
+
+[21:55] who grow. Took them out after they were in there overnight, and sure enough, they turned brown. They're solid, but they caramelized. Now, why did, but you also had an effect where the inside liquefied. Do we ever figure out why that happened? Why it changed, why it was differently affected on the inside of the crystals on the outside? Uh, I don't have the equipment to, uh, you know, to determine why exactly, but I have a
+
+[22:20] theory, and my theory is that, um, so these are the big sugar crystals that you can buy, you know,
+
+[22:26] in, in Chinese groceries. Uh, they're, you know, like uh, half inch long and and quarter inch thick, like,
+
+[22:34] and um, I don't know exactly how they're, they're manufactured, but I'm, I figure it has to do with, you know, the kind of thing that they're doing when you make ice
+
+[22:45] cubes. Uh, they, the crystallization happens, the solidification happens kind of from the outside in, and you end up with, at the core of the
+
+[22:54] crystal. just as you do with a, with an ice cube, a lot of stuff, you know, dissolved gases
+
+[23:00] and and even purities of various kinds. I guess is that there, there's this little pocket of impurities at the center of the sugar crystal. They, uh, hasten the breakdown of sucrose molecules, and so the, the caramelization begins there and proceeds uh, furthest there.
+
+[23:20] And so it's true that I've got some pictures on my website of, um, sugar crystals of that size that, uh,
+
+[23:28] are liquid on the inside. They're solid on the outside still, but they've got liquid caramel on the
+
+[23:34] inside and you crack them open and the caramel leaks out. Wait, so you think those big crystals are formed not from a single nucleation site
+
+[23:42] out? You don't actually think they're single crystals. You think they're form like ice cubes with multiple nucleation sites? Uh, that's my guess. Like I say, I don't I don't know what the manufacturing process is exactly. So yeah, I don't know. You have time for... What do you think? I don't know. I have no idea. I've tried to grow crystals on strings, you know, for my kids, and I've never gotten a crystal even approaching what you can buy in a store like that, not even approaching it. And I'm not talking like, I'm not talking like, I waited a day or a week. I'm talking like 3 weeks. You know what I mean? Like, long waits. And, um, But that said, I didn't put it under into, for instance, like a heated atmosphere with force evaporation. You know what I mean? I just had it out on the on the counter, and presumably at some point, the solution. I mean, it'll eventually evaporate, I guess, 100%, but I mean, I did not have any luck growing big crystals. And I tried a bunch of different things too. I tried. Hello? You're cutting for a second. you there? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you tried me. I hear you. Yeah, yeah. We lost you at, you tried, and then you were about to say what you were trying. Okay, yeah. So it seems to be part of the problem is the viscosity of the sugar solution that takes so long for molecules of sucrose to get onto the surface. So I tried things like, uh, you know, adding uh, ethanol alcohol to the, to the liquid to, to
+
+[25:12] sin it. The solubility of sugar and and methanol is not that great, and I thought that would, that would be pretty good, but it didn't work. I had lots of different things and I have no idea, they might make those big beautiful crystals. Yeah. Well, that's something for us to look up. I guess for next time. Next year. Yeah. You have a, you have 30 seconds because someone wrote in with a question that actually you, I mean, you're an expert in most of these questions, but specifically on this
+
+[25:38] one. Do you have a 2nd or no? All right. This was from Brett Adams saying, on the theme of Mexican food, I have a question about dry roasting chili's, which also applies to whole spices. Most recipes begin by roasting dried chilies, hydrating them, then blending them into a sauce. The dry roasting is supposed to help bring out their flavor. My two-part question is, what is about dry heat that makes the ingredient more delicious? And B, if I'm going to be cooking the chili later when it's in the sauce. Won't the flavor boosting aspect of heat happen then, or is there something particular about dry roasting the individual ingredient? First, it doesn't occur when it's part of the sauce. The only thing I would guess is that the higher possible temperatures in a non-wet situation. I mean, I know that you studied this. Yeah, that's exactly it. The, the, um, various, the chili or whatever spice it is you're using, are in it, a
+
+[26:30] spice, concentrated, and so you apply heat to that, immediately gets way above the boiling point, and you start to get caramelization reactions, browning reactions, the aroma
+
+[26:42] compounds react with each other, uh, because you're at such a high temperature. If you, uh, if you hydrate them and and essentially steam them or build them or something like that, then you get a completely different set of
+
+[26:55] reactions and they're not as extensive because the temperature is much lower. Right. So, one of these other things where people, it's like, it seems, they're not, it's not a better or worse. It's a, it's a different situation. I mean, like, I know that if you take coriander and you dry roast it, you lose some of the citrusy things that can be
+
+[27:12] nice. I mean, so in other words, I tend to use like a combination. I know when I'm making liquors, I'll tend to use a combination of untoasted and toasted spices when I'm doing
+
+[27:20] it just to accentuate the different kind of components, right? I mean, it's not a better or worse phenomenon, just a different thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And same as true in Indian cooking, for example, you use some spices. You, you, you use uh, a certain amount of the different spices, but you use portions of them, ages in the cooking, and
+
+[27:42] then often the very last step is to fry some spices very
+
+[27:46] quickly, at the very end, and then pour them on the top. Or whatever it is, sizzles away and you end up with all these different layers of fragrance. All right, well, as always, Harold, thank you so much for calling in. A pleasure to have you in the show. We're going to take our 1st commercial break. We'll be right back with cooking issues.
+
+[28:16] You're listening to Andy's Biscuits by Pamela Royal on the Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[28:37] Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[29:51] My name is Brandon Boy. Co owner of Robertos, a super duper awesome voice. Roberta is a very, very, very proud sponsor of the
+
+[30:03] Heritage radio network. We're also super awesome. Thank you, heritage. And welcome back to cooking issues. Alan Sternberg wrote in. That was fun though, right, with McGee? Yeah. Unprecedented. I think he's never been on the show before? Unprecedented having him read aloud. Yeah. Yeah. Next time we'll get him we'll get him a landline so he doesn't cut anything out. that was awesome. I've never heard him actually read aloud from the on food and cooking. No? He's like, the thing is, you gotta know Harold people. Like, Harold, Harold is always a measured man, right? True or false. Well, not always. Well, I mean, you know, well, when it comes to food, he is. Like, in other words, like, Harold is one of those few people, and this is why I love him so much, is that Harold will never talk out of his nether parts. You know what I mean? Like, he always thinks about it. I've heard people ask Harold. some crazy nutbag questions. and he's never, he's never like, he's never like, what the hell are you talking about? Which is not what he sounds like, obviously, just hurt him. But, like, he's never liked that. You know what I mean? He's like, he's like, I love that guy. He so measured. Anyway, gladly Gladys coming to the museum event. Okay, Alan Sternberg writes in on Kimik, which is spelled QI, MIQ. dumb, right? Q-I-M-IQ. think it was invented by an Austrian. Hmm, teammate, and carbonation. I've recently been introduced to the product Kimik. Their corporate chef demoed at the culinary school where I work, but sadly, I couldn't attend. I now have several containers of it to play with and wondered your thoughts on the product. The Blackberry Merlot sorbet we may with it set beautifully and held shape at room temperature for damn near 45 minutes, even while the texture softened. By the way, my son thinks dam's a curse. I'm like, nah, you can't say it, but it's not really a curse. What your thoughts does? I agree. I guess I think when you get to maybe be a junior in high school, you could see it. Yeah. Yeah. Especially damn on its own without the, without the, without the, without the, Yeah, like seems to me it's like, you know, you know, it's right up there with root and tootin in terms of strength. Uh, anyway, second, uh, I've also been interested in carbonating a sphere or sauce, the ideal end product would be a plated element that wouldn't release the bubbles until it's in the mouth, any tips would be useful.
+
+[32:13] Okay, Alan, let's take the 2nd one 1st since I'm much more of an expert on carbonation. So the issue with carbonation is, um, If you're going to put it into a liquid sauce, the carbonation is going to leave. That's all there is to it. So if you spherefy it, what ends up happening when you spherefy a
+
+[32:31] sauce that's carbonated, is that you develop a CO2 pocket on the inside of the sphere.
+
+[32:36] Now, eventually, right, you'll reach an equilibrium at whatever the equilibrium vapor pressure of the stuff is on the inside. So if you could create a sphere like algegenate in a reverse sphere, spherefied situations that actually was strong enough to hold up to it, right? then you could do it, but you'd probably be talking somewhere in the range of 35 PSI. And I don't know whether or not an alginate envelope or a pectin envelope, pectin wouldn't do it. But like whether one of those or a gel-an envelope could withstand that kind of a pressure. Now, if you did it right, maybe you could, in which case you could just set, you know, a coding of algerinate or geland around the outside of a spherefied thing, you'd get an air pocket in it, but the air pocket would
+
+[33:19] equilibrium. I mean, not an air pocket, a CO2 pocket, it would stay there, and then it would stay carbonated for a little while. I mean, it's gas permeable, so you'd lose it eventually, but it would stay for a little while. Uh, and obviously it would be fine if you then stored that for a while in a carbonated container that was pressurized, then you could store it indefinitely until you're ready to serve it, right?
+
+[33:40] As long as you could pour it out of the bottle. That wouldn't be a problem. Uh, but that is going to happen. If you really want to lock the stuff in there, you're going to have to go the route of heavy gelatin. So if you set a carbonated product with heavy, like heavy carbonation, I'm talking heavy, like 80
+
+[33:57] psi, right as the stuff's going to set, which is around room temperature, then you can get a prickly feeling in the gel that you've formed.
+
+[34:06] It's not a sauce, but the problem is, it's more of a piercing, like needle light carbonation. Less, I'm poking nastachio. I'm saying that so that can have the effect in my head of the piercing needle like carbonation. But, um, it doesn't feel the same as soda. It feels more like pop rocks. You know how pop rocks has that kind of piercing feel to it. Has more of that piercing pop rock feel. Um, you can't freeze stuff that's carbon. If you freeze a bottle that's carbonated and the bottle doesn't explode. When it unfreezes, it will be carbonated again, but the freezing itself will force
+
+[34:36] a CO2 out and the CO2 will only be present in the unfrozen section, although at a very concentrated
+
+[34:41] rate because, as I said, when you lower the, actually, I guess I haven't said this. When you lower the temperature, you increase the solubility of the CO2. Anyway, back to Chimique. I've never used Kimique. I assume it's pronounced Kimique, and it comes from. went on their website. Kimik is a word creation. Like, if you have to do that much explaining about your product with the name, then the name is dumb. Kimik. What does it mean? Kimik. It's a word creation stemming from the words quick and milk, demonstrating how quick and easy the product is to use. But what it really is, is they take, this is how they make it. I looked up H-A-M-A food service as the company that has the patents. And whenever you find out what a product is. You really want to know what the hell's going on. You find the patent literature on it. So if you go to HAMA Hamma, I guess, food service, go to their patent. They have a patent on the technique they're using. Here's what they're doing. Because on the, on their website. They say stuff like, we're coating each and every milk cell with gelatin.
+
+[35:35] What does that even mean? Milk cell. What does that mean? Does that meaning? They mean my cells? Do they mean casing my cells? What do they mean? Has no meaning. No meaning. This is the problem when you have like someone translating from their non-native language into
+
+[35:46] the, whatever. Anyway. It looks like an interesting product. But on their patent, here's what's actually happening. They're taking skim milk, and they're putting skim milk through a very specific temperature regimen, adding a very specific grain size and bloom strength of gelatin to it, holding it at a very specific temperature until it
+
+[36:05] swells the way they want it. They hydrate it by bringing the temperature up, holding it for a certain length of time, and then introducing a specific amount of light cream to it, 15%
+
+[36:15] cream, right? They then homogenize it and pasteurize it so it fills in like parmalot containers so they can stay at room temperature for a year, shelf stable. That's what it is, right? So what's happening here. And if you want to know why that makes a difference, uh, you want to go, this is the most. I love it when I find people like this. Dr. Bernard Cole's homepage, here's what Dr. Bernard Cole has to say about himself. He's from South Africa. I have a doctorate in food science from the University of Pretoria. I'm a retired I'm retired from full time employment after spending 30 years in gelatin. I am willing to assist anyone who could benefit from my many fields of experience
+
+[36:55] in gelatin. And this is his website, and his website is just a list of like interesting and cool facts about gelatin. He's in South Africa somewhere. But it's like... gelatin somewhere. Yeah, he's like totally set in gelatin. He's like, you want to know about gelatin from pigs got you. You want to know about gelatin from cows? Got you. Got you. Gelatin. I do it. Anyway, so he's like, he's like sitting there. He's like, I don't know what he is. 70s something. I don't know. He's sitting there. He's like, I'm retired. You got gelatin problems. I got answers. He's like, you know, whatever you want to know about Jelatin he's got. But anyway, he has a page on what gelatin does in dairy situations in general, right? So what gelatin is doing is, and this is why it leads to all the cool stuff that can theoretically do, although I've never used it,
+
+[37:36] right? Gelatin is a great foam former foaming agent, which is why it's used in marshmallows, okay? And it can emulsify, it helps in emulsifying things, right? It also is really good at stabilizing things like ice creams, which is why in your sorbet,
+
+[37:53] although you did it in a sorbet, but it works in ice creams as well. Of course, it was an ice cream because you used kami, which is milk-based. so boop. Uh, so boop. right? Also, it protects dairy-based systems from curdling when acids are added. So you can add lemon juice and white wine directly to comique or vice versa, and you don't get curdling. And it's because, uh, you know, if you read uh, further on into uh, Dr. Cole's web page. It's because the gelatin interacts with the casing myself and prevents them from aggregating and coalescing, breaking, and falling out. So, it does that. Um, It has a lot of cool things that, uh, it also helps to make oil soluble things more soluble in dairy systems, right? And this is basically explanation. And he links to a bunch of research papers on it, but it leads to the main things that Kimi claims that they can do.
+
+[38:48] They're acid alcohol and bake stable without breaking. So actually, I'd like to get a hold of some so we can make some cream liqueulas, even though I don't really like them. I have people asking me constantly about the cream liquors. In fact, we've answered 2 or 3 questions on cream, cream liqueurs here on the, on the stuff. So maybe we can make some baileys that won't form them. What's it called when you mix roses, lime juice, and bailey's in your mouth? It's disgusting. It has a name. Is that the cement mixer? I think it might be the cement mixer. Disgusting. Disgusting. You know, no one over the age of 21 +15 minutes should ever consume one in their life. Like, you're allowed to consume it in the 1st 15 minutes of your bar binge on your 21st
+
+[39:23] birthday if you're here in the US, but at no other time. Um, Also, uh, that, you know, they, they say that it, it reduces butter fat because it's got a higher viscosity. Another thing Dr. Cole pointed out is that the viscosity of cream increases greatly without a gelatin. And so it can make it seem like there's more fat in it. I don't really believe in replacing fat with things like gelatin because I just believe in adding the freaking fat, but that's me. I hate whatever anyway. anyway, okay. Uh, it can replace flower, starch, or roux, partially, uh, because of that. I mean, so it's got a lot of a lot of cool, a lot of cool stuff. It stays free sauce, stable, uh, going through sous vide. So a lot of cool stuff, but I have not used it, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading Dr. Cole's website on gelatin and related products.
+
+[40:06] All right. Uh, and see very quickly. Stephen Silver wrote in. I'm not sure whether we talked about this last week or not, Stas. We might have. I feel like that man's writing with a dull pencil. Who's running? There's a man outside writing notes in a notebook with a dull pencil and it's bothering
+
+[40:22] nostalgia because presumably she's thinking about the noise that it's making as it's going across. He's reading a book on Rauschenberg. Are you a Raushenberg fan? I don't know much. And Rick Bayless is here. This is not Rick Bayless we're talking about. another guy. This guy looks for all the world like, like, imagine the guy from Mad Man who's not Don Draper, grew a beard. It looks not a live strong sweatshirt. Yeah, if you could imagine, what's that guy's name? Do you know the guy's name from Mad Men? The his partner, the older guy that was sleeping around with the lady and the thing. It's that guy plus a beard with a Rauschenberg book and a hat and a live strong sweater. Right? So now you picture what I love. And an NFL pen. And I'm watching Rick Bayless eat his lunch, which is always nice. I love the Rick Bayless. You like the Rick Bayless? never met him. Never man. He a good man. Good man. Okay. Stephen Silver wrote in on lactic acid and meats. Could you please review the concept and prevention of lactic acid buildup when cooking meets at low temperature? We sear any meats that we cook over 3 hours to prevent it and is 99% effective
+
+[41:16] and eliminating this issue. Just wondering if you have any updated thoughts on this, by lactic acid. I'm assuming you mean lactobacillus growth, bacterial growth. And I think the fact that you're preventing it means that you're probably following the steps
+
+[41:27] that you're saying, you're pre-seearing the meats and you're not crowding them in the baths. I think that a vast majority of the people who are having problems with
+
+[41:34] blowoff and lactic acid and nasty flavors in the bags are crowding their bass too
+
+[41:39] much. In other words, they're trying to put too many things in the bath. That's what I think is happening. That is my guess. Okay. We have... ooh, we have Joe, what's the question here? I'm looking at these 2 pictures of 2 Vita Preps. You gonna give me the question? Yeah I'm here. So it's basically, let me let me pull it up, but the question is, uh, which would be a better, uh, Christmas gift of these, of these
+
+[42:06] 2, uh, the Vitaprep versus the Vitamix 750? What's better for home use? And this is Jacob, and he's looking for something that will blend kale into soups or drinks without leaving a whole lot of
+
+[42:18] chunks. All right. Well, here's my, 1st off, I think they will both, they will both work. For a long time. The top end Vitamix was exactly the same as the
+
+[42:31] Vitaprep, the exception being in terms of its motor, its capabilities. The name plate was different. And the main difference between them was the warranty. So, um, you know, the VitaPrep, if you used a vita, if you used a vita mix in a commercial setting, uh, your warranty was void, right? So the vitamix had a much longer warranty for home use, right? And cost less. The VitaPrep had a much shorter warranty, but cost more, but was certified for use in a commercial kitchen.
+
+[43:01] And that was the main difference. They since changed them. So if you look on the web at a classic Vitaprep versus the Vitamix 750, you'll notice that there's a different pitcher, blender pitcher style. The older style, by the way, here's what's really messed up. Unless you're working with a bar boss or one of the really large pitchers, both those pitcher styles will work on either
+
+[43:20] base, so you can swap them out. The new Vitamix 750 base pitcher is designed to be wider than the old one and shorter. And the advantage of that is it fits underneath a counter. If you have like, if you have cabinets over your counter. You can fit it underneath, okay? Uh, and, uh, Whereas the old Vitaprep, one of the big pains in the butt about the Vitaprep in the house is it does not fit under counters. It hits it right at the blender top, right? The other problem I have with the old Vitaprep containers is that if you don't have the plunger in them, they don't form a very good vortex 100% of the time at the base of the pitcher unit because
+
+[43:58] they, it's too choked up. It's a little too narrow. The newer pitcher style that they use, which again, I say you can use the same pitcher on either unit, is wider at the base and so allows for more kind of mixing. There's not as much of a choke up point, more similar to a blend tech blender. Now, here's the downside of the new size pitcher. The new size pitcher holds the same amount as the old one. The old one is better at blending small amounts of ingredients because it's got a smaller base. So the old one, your minimum blend amount was in the area of
+
+[44:29] 200, 250 milliliters, whereas the new one's going to take more stuff, more
+
+[44:33] product in your blender pitcher to adequately blend so that the blades are adequately
+
+[44:38] engage with your product. If you're only blending larger quantities, that's not going to make a big difference. If you're blending smaller quantities that could make a difference. I would suggest in general, investing in the small size pitcher to go with
+
+[44:49] it in case you're going to do a lot of work with hydrocolloids in situations where you're going to be blending 200, 300, 400, 500 milliliters of product at a
+
+[44:57] time. So I would, if it was my life, right? What I would want is I would want the new style pitcher and a small pitcher. Now, to the units themselves. I do not like the knobs and switches on the
+
+[45:10] Vitamix 750 as opposed to the old school Vitaprep. The old school Vita Prep, uh, like switches, that's little flap switches feel awesome to me. The newer ones are a little thicker, and they maybe think they feel a little more robo, but as Tristan said about my favorite
+
+[45:24] jigger, They feel a little more play school because the switches are a little bit bigger. And also the knob on the on the Vitamix on the home one is a round
+
+[45:33] knob, and it doesn't have the the paddle interface, like the, the old knob has a flat thing on it that you can spin. And, um, in my mind, no one has ever equaled the awesomeness of using the interface controls of the
+
+[45:47] Vitaprep. Uh, but, uh, so sorry that I couldn't be more helpful on, uh, on that because there's pros and cons for each of them. And I'm sorry. My apologies again, go out to stand below. We will, I promise on 8 stacks of Bibles. I will answer your questions next time. Cookie issues.
+
+[46:14] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[46:26] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[46:45] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by TechServe, New York's original and still the best, Apple computer, iPod, and iPhone store and repair shop. For more information, visit techserve.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Cooking issues!
+
+[0:53] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's
+
+[1:05] Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Natasha? Good. And we got Joe in the engineering room. Still no Jack? Did he die? Or is he just... Still in Puerto Rico, but it's like, was he planning on being there this long? or is he dead? or has he just decided to move there? I think he's actually he's back from Puerto Rico. Just hates us. You're going to have to talk with him about that. So, uh, so actually, you know, today, uh, Nastasia is like my, this is my perfect kind of weather. It's freaking awesome. This is New York, late fall at its best, uniformly overcast. There's not one ray of sun touching my disgusting white body burning me to
+
+[1:43] death. Like my nemesis, evil nemesis, the sun, and... Today is the most fertile day of the year, actually. What does that mean, fertile? Most people have sex and get pregnant today. Really? Wow. Well, unrelated to me being so happy about the... It was a great day. It is a great day. So apparently it's a great day for a lot of people. A lot of people getting busy getting lucky today. But also Nastasia. And I think maybe this is part of it. Uh, although not historically, who knows, is it's exactly the right temperature. If it was like 3 degrees colder, you could see your breath outside. And if it was 3 degrees warmer, the crazies would come out. You know what I mean? Like there's no crazies on the street and not mentioned. For those of you, they're going to visit Roberta's pizzeria and hate hipsters as much as Nastasia does. There's a secret back way to Roberta's. You don't come, like, from the Williamsburg direction or from the L-train direction, which is like hipster train. You come from the J Chain direction down from Flushing Avenue, and you pass not one hipster in the entire walk.
+
+[2:43] Either that or hipsters are like crazy people, and they just don't come out when it gets a little bit nippy. Is it because it doesn't take that much energy to be crazy, and usually crazy is just outside being crazy, and so they get
+
+[2:55] cold because, like, when we were outside, we're moving around. You'd have to shoot me to get me to stand outside and do nothing. You know what I mean? I don't know. Interesting phenomena, the crazies. The craze is in the temperature. Anyway, beautiful fall day. Call your questions live too. 718-4972128. 718-4972128. We're going to answer a stand below's question from a 1000000 years ago that we keep on forgetting the answers. Here we go. Enjoy the show on podcast only as I'm in France. A great way to gain knowledge on cooking, good fun to listen to, and funky in a good way, choice of music. Although, now, you know, we have the user submitted, uh, submitted music, and so we have 2 different styles, which I, which I thoroughly enjoy. You like that stuff, right? stuff? It's good business. Okay, I would appreciate your answering a question. I'd like to create a small appetizer, maybe 2 bites. The idea is to take 2 medium prawns and Flash cooked them so they stay juicy and remove the shell and pair them with 2 contrasting textures.
+
+[3:45] I'd like to pair one prawn with an ultra light, very brittle meringue in quotes, and the other one with a very chewy gummy bear also in quotes. For the meringue, one egg white whip to which we add lemon juice or another flavorful water, water-based flavor, I'm assuming, until very light, then
+
+[4:01] stabilized with sugar or another hydrocoloid. Of course, the hydrocolid can be pre-mixed into flavored water first. Then put it in the oven to dry up. I could not find any indications on stabilizing egg whites in your hydrocolide prime or any suggestions for that. Sugar could work, but not sure the resulting taste with prawns or a savory dish. Okay. So, um, let's go into that before we go to the gummy bear. So, yeah, sugar makes the egg white denser and gives it structure for when it's drying up. But as you say, sugar is sweet. So you don't want to add a lot of sugar. You could use a different, especially if you're going to do, like, you know, a cooked meringue where you cook the sugar beforehand and beat it in, cook so that it already stays cooked and then you dry it out. Uh, you could use a less sweet sugar, like uh, isomalt. But it will still be somewhat sweet. There are other, you know, completely non-sweet things that have the properties of
+
+[4:50] sugar you could add, or you could do what I would do, which is
+
+[4:54] go in an entirely different direction and use methocellulose. If you use methocellulose F like Frank, F50, right? You can take whatever flavor base you want. If it doesn't have any sort of substance to it. You're going to need to add some bulking agent, like a maltodextrin or something that is going to provide some structure to it. So, you know, like if there's no protein in it. If there's no pecked in, if there's no anything, you're gonna need some structure. Then you add methocell F 50, anywhere between about 0.75 and up to, but don't go over, one% of methocell
+
+[5:31] F, F, like Frank, 50. And you add it in a blender. while it's mixing high speed, so it doesn't clump up. And then if you want, if it doesn't work, you you know, if you're worried about it not working, you can let it sit and hydrate for a while. Might not work in a milk base, you might not want to do in milk base, but then you just whip it in a KitchenAid with
+
+[5:47] a balloon whisk. It'll whip up like egg whites. And you can pipe it into any shape you want, and then you can dehydrate it in a dehydrator on a low
+
+[5:56] oven, and they're crisp. Uh, they're great, uh, they, you can make anything with any flavor. You could go dead savory. You could go sweet, and it doesn't have any of the residual protein stuff that's left. So it's very, very light and airy. The less methocellulose you use, the larger the bubbles will be and the more area it will be, but I tend to like in the area of about 0.9% or 9 grams per liter of your product.
+
+[6:23] Now, listen, here's the important thing. Metal cellulose has trouble in that if you leave a methocellulose meringue out for a long time. It's going to absorb moisture and lose its crunch. So you're going to want to keep it either in a, if you're going to use a dehydrator, and I apologize. This is the one thing I know in Fahrenheit because my dehydrator only works in Fahrenheit. You want to dehydrate at around 135 to 135 degrees Fahrenheit, but you're going to want to store it at like 112, 110,
+
+[6:53] 120, lower, much lower than 135 because if you store it at that high temperature, if you cook
+
+[6:59] it for a long time, I'm talking like a day or 2 to hold it, it's going to start tasting cooked.
+
+[7:04] Now, you need to keep it in a dehydrator when you're getting ready for service because it's going to absorb moisture, or you can package it along with a desiccant, which is a silica
+
+[7:14] gel that a lot of pastry people get, and you just package it in a container with a desiccant. The desk can will remove all the moisture and keep it crunchy. But that's what I would do if I was wanted a meringue that was totally stable because it doesn't require very much thinking or very much
+
+[7:26] tweaking and it works all the time and I like it. Uh, okay, now, for the gummy bear, I wanted to grind some, uh, wanted to grind some sage up fine along with tarragon or other herb, add ground star
+
+[7:38] anis or something like that, and just a bit of water with high acyl gel in, and or iota carragin. Now, remember, I'll finish. Once gel, the gum would be cut in a few one by one by one centimeter cubes to be eaten whole with the prawn. Any advice on how to use the herbs so the gummy bear really packs a punch of flavor, which
+
+[7:54] hydrocoly, should I use any problems with flavor release, temperature, or acidity to think about? Okay. So here's here's the deal. So, uh, hi, there's 2 kinds of gelen. uh, for those you don't, and
+
+[8:04] Jelen is one of these geling agents, newer age geling agents. It's natural, but it's, you know, derived from microbial fermentation. There's high acyl gelin and low acyl gelin. Low acyl gelan is brittle like agar. And it, and it, you know, it's brittle. There you have it. High acele, Jalan is very elastic. I do not enjoy, uh, straight up high acel geland preparations because they're extremely rubbery. They don't really imitate. They don't really imitate gummy bears. Uh, oh, and the other one you mentioned iota carrot game, and also, so iota carrot
+
+[8:39] game, and kappa carrot game, and 2 most common carrot games people use. Kappa, brittle, like Agar. In fact, it's very closely related to Agar and Iota, which is elastic and stretchy. Also, I mean, Iota, typically when you're using it, you're using it in low concentrations for things like puddings because it allows you to shear it and then have it reset up into in gel.
+
+[8:58] a kind of its unique property, along with reacting very nicely with milk. But neither of those 2 things alone are going to impart a real gummy bear texture. Why not just use gelatin? Gelatin is amazing, has great flavor release. And, you know, there's a lot of recipes out there for, you know, how to do high gelatin preparations for real gummy
+
+[9:17] bear. Because remember, the hallmark of a gummy, you like gummy bears, rice sauce. They should be hard, right? They're hard. What do you mean? They're physically, you have to bite into them. They don't just break apart like a marshmallow. You don't like marshmallows. Is it you that doesn't like marshmallows? or just doesn't care about them? made marshmallows, I don't like. You like jet puffed? store bought marshmallows. What it you don't like about ham and marshmallows again? I forget. Is it the idea or is there something about detection? The scissors cutting it. The sound of the scissors cutting it. What if it was cut in a different room? You think about the scissors and then you're like, I can't enjoy this because I know that at some point it was cut with a scissor.
+
+[9:47] Wow. All right. All right. Not gonna, I'm just gonna let that one stay. Um, so, uh, the properties of a gummy bear that you're trying to get at where the gummy
+
+[9:56] are, uh, that they are, uh, cohesive, elastic and hard, okay? And if you look on there's a patent out right now. Someone using a mixture of gelan and carraginen, but not, I believe they're using low as, or the brittle one. So the gelland's there to provide the hardness, and you can use gelland at a fairly low proportions. This is only if you want to do a vegetarian gummy. Otherwise, I would just use gelatin. Uh, you know, geland's going to provide the hardness and the iota is going to provide, or they don't use iota. They use a mixture of iota and um, and I believe new, which is a, you know, there's a 1000000000 different, not a billion, like eight. Different
+
+[10:31] keraginans, but the, you know, new is one of the ones that we don't really use much, but they, in the patent literature, and you can look at
+
+[10:37] it. It is, the inventors are Andrew J. Grizella and Neil Argo Morrison on a gelatin-free gummy confection comprising the combination of gel and gum and new
+
+[10:45] carrogenen and or new iota carrogen and blend. So, uh, the gelin is there for the hardness and the iota is there for the elastic, uh, elasticity and the cohesiveness, and the recipe is actually there in the patent, so you can go look at it, which is a good thing to do.
+
+[10:58] But I recommend just using gelatin. Unless you don't want a gummy bear. Now, you're in France, a lot of people like, you know, the pectin texture, in which
+
+[11:05] case, just go high pectin, nothing, like, in terms of very good flavor release and high concentrations, gelatin
+
+[11:11] and pectin are the way to go. Gelan is good, but in high concentrations can get kind of weird. Um, and I've never done a super high concentration of like a highest, a low
+
+[11:20] acyl mix to try and imitate gelatin, but anyone out there with some advice, eh, we'll take it, right? We'll take it. Okay. Uh, so I apologize for not answering that question for so long. Right? Actually, Stan had a really interesting idea. We've never done about roto apps. Stan was saying, so different flavors, right? Have different kind of solubilities in different mediums, like alcohol or oil or bubble, blah, right? So typically when we rotovap something, we wroteovap the entire product to try and get as much flavor out of it as humanly possible, right? Yeah. So what, but what he's saying, why not, have you ever tried, uh, for instance, doing an oil extraction, uh, of, of something or an alcohol extraction versus a water
+
+[12:00] extraction, and then wrote of app those extractions without the product in it to try and separate different aspects of the
+
+[12:05] flavor? Nope. Good idea, though. You could try it, right? Okay. Mike writes in about lemongrass. Happy holidays, everyone, and cooking issues. Oh, that's right. It's next week our last one before the holidays? Really? Next week is, by the way, for me, holiday means Christmas. Next week is the Christmas edition of cooking issues. Call in all of your, you know, Christmas related or holiday or are we going to do one between Christmas and New Year's? No, because I think New Year's falls on the day of the next one after Christmas. Oh, it's on Tuesday? So next week, your last chance for 2 weeks, right? Is Christmas on a Tuesday? Yeah, yeah. Something like that? Yeah. I just don't know anything. I can't believe the freaking year is over. By the way, we're doing our holiday thing for the, there's a holiday. What do you call them? like an ice cream social, but without ice cream today, for the Booker and
+
+[12:56] Dax, equipment company, and Booker and Dax, the bar, are going to meet to ice skate in at the Bryan Park. It should be fun, right? Moustache, like, no, it's not gonna be fun. But you like ice skating. I do. I just don't like... doesn't like getting together with people. Those people, oh, how I hate people. company softball games and all that. I'm just not. You've been pestering me about having a company Christmas party. I'm actually getting that, like a Christmas party where you drink. Oh, I'm sure the bartenders are going to show up. They will bring liquor. I highly doubt it. They'll already be wasted. I told Tristan to bring some hot drinks. I think it's alcohol, it's illegal. Okay, well, yes, yes, it's technically okay, sorry. Mike with his lemongrass. Happy holidays, which is how we got into this nonsense. Happy holidays to everyone at cooking issues. I hate mincing lemongrass by hand and who doesn't? Nastasia hates lemongrass. Guess why? Guess why, people? You can't because you're not here with me because it grew in her backyard and it goes back to her hatred of everything from her childhood. Well, why do you hate him? I used to like, like play with it and smell it and like now I feel nauseated when I think about it. Nastasia, what I love about her is that she properly uses nauseated instead. I do get angry about that one. But the, but like, but what's true or false? You hate, like, everyone knows. We had a tangerine tree and a pomegranate tree. like all those things. The lemongrass I used to play with it so much. You know what I used to play with because we didn't have that stuff because I lived in, you know, in the east coast here. What? Jersey? Yeah, you know, you know? Kind of. Onion grass. I used to rip up onion grass and smell the onion grass constantly all the time. I still love myself some onions. anyway, whatever. Mike hates mincing lemongrass by hand. A few cookbooks recommend against using a food processor given that the blades create
+
+[14:45] friction, and therefore heat, and that this damages the flavor of the lemongrass. Any thoughts on this, given that lemongrass is going to be heated at a later point. Should this even matter to me, thanks, Mike. I do not think that should matter to you, Mike. I think that's a load of horse hockey. Look, I'm willing to, I'm willing to have my butt handed to me on this one, but I don't think it's a problem.
+
+[15:04] I think, like, the reason I wouldn't use it is that food processor isn't that good at breaking up lemongrass properly, and I detest the long, uh, uh,
+
+[15:14] like, uh, sure, Nastasia agents even more than I do. the long fibery craps from an inappropriately processed lemongrass, right? So, I mean, like if you mince it by hand, across, you know, crossways, you're guaranteed to not have any long fibers, which is good. Um, So, I mean, I think it's less about the friction or the heat, especially if you're going to heat it later, and because there's not that much heat in a typical food processor. Now, you can get a good bit of heat and a vita prep or something like that. But I think it's more about the, uh, about the length of the fibers and you don't want any long, nasty fibers. I detest the texture of, um, kind of cellulosic and, you know, lignified fibers in my food.
+
+[15:52] You know, unless I'm chewing on sugarcane, and then I chew on it for some reason because I have a mental problem until my gums bleed.
+
+[15:58] You ever do that? Yeah, it's terrible, right? It's horrible. Which is why instead of using sugarcane in a drink, consider saving the cores from pineapples and vacuum infusing some sugar into the core of a pineapple and using that instead of the typical
+
+[16:12] sugarcane garnish. I need to get our sugarcane pressed back out to use it, but they'll never do it at the bar. But that'd be awesome. Do you like sugarcane drinks? Like fresh sugar cane juice? I forget the word for it in Portuguese. I love that stuff. I look for it eventually. Eventually, we'll do it someday, someday. Anyway. So there you go, Mike. And with that, Joe, should we take our 1st commercial break? Coming right back at you with more cooking issues.
+
+[17:36] Man, Joe, your computer is so slow. I can't even use this. Yeah, I should probably get a new one. Do you have any suggestions? Oh, totally, man. You should go to tech serve. Okay, what's so good about tech surf? Well, they've got this awesome new insider program that's free when you get a new Mac with
+
+[17:54] AppleCare. So you should buy your computer there because you get 50% off data transfer, free loaner computers, front of the line repair privileges, an annual Mac
+
+[18:03] tuneup service, backup consultation and setup, seminars, and much more. Okay, yeah, where's tech serve? 119 West 23rd Street in New York City. They're New York's premiere authorized Apple reseller and service provider. And you should totally check out techserve.com for more information. All right, that settles it. I'm headed to TechServe. Man, your computer just got called out. Your computer's busted. Your computers are flying sack. Yeah, can you believe that was all improv? And Joe has not made it over to tech serve yet, so his computer still is a steaming pile
+
+[18:36] of of uh, you know, poop. You're allowed to say poop on the air, right? I think that there's no regulations against poop. Yeah. I mean, even if we were on the real air. I think I could say poop. Anyway, Matt writes in about lemon juice. Here's a word I'm not going to use on the on the on the air. Listen, Matt, I'm going to editorialize a little bit. Uh, come up with a good word, schmutz. How about schmutz? Matt used a much, much worse. In fact, I think one of the worst words in the English language when you think about it. Right? Dave had to explain this word to me 3 years ago. Yeah, rhymes with Greg. And egg. I'm not going to go into it. Anyway, Schmutz. I just got done centrifuging some lemon and lime juice. I started with fresh juice. Juice treated with Pectinex. Let's sit for a few hours and make a loose gel with agar. Then I broke the gel up and spun at a 4000 RPM. Uh, which I'm assuming if you use a similar centrifuge to mine is also roughly 4000
+
+[19:35] uh, Gs. The lime turned out perfect, but the lemon had a scum. There you go. Scum's a good one. floating on the surface. I was able to remove it with a coffee filter, see below. The same thing happened with peach juice a few months back. what I can see, it appears to be some kind of oil or grease. The question is, what is that scum and is there a way to avoid it? Thanks, Matt. Well, it depends. There's a couple things that can be floating on the top of the center. First of all, I would recommend you change your the way that you do lemon and lime juice. You should lemon and lime juice. I would not sit with an agar, uh, Nastasia's least fond memories, uh, are trying to spin agar gels in uh, the centrifuge. Are these your least fond? Never want to do it. What do you hate more? What's the worst? I did like grapefruit. How many tons ago? No, for that for them. Oh my god, it was horrible. But what was your least favorite, is that your least favorite task? Task? Yeah, yeah. Really? Of all? Let me think about it in a while. All right. Okay. So anyway, that's not the way to do it. Go buy Kiesel Saul, which is suspended silica, Saul from the, what's it called? Homebrew shop and Kaida San, uh, CH Kaida San. Also from a homebrew shop. These are wine finding agents, right? Then you add two, for every liter of lime juice, or lemon juice, add two, um, 2 milliliters of the SPL, and also 2 milliliters, be
+
+[20:54] accurate of the Kiesel Saul. Stir it, let it sit 15 minutes, add 2 milliliters of
+
+[21:00] kitusan, stir, also be accurate, 15 minutes, then 2 more milliliters,
+
+[21:06] kesel salt, again. Stir it up, spin it. You'll be good every time. That's the way to do lemon juice or lime juice. That's what we do at the bar and it never fails. Okay, now to your other problem, stuff floating on top. There are 2 things that can be going on. Sometimes you spin something that has some fat in it, in which case it floats up to the top. Sometimes you have some fat contaminating your buckets, if you spin directly in the buckets, as I do, in which case, it floats on top. More often than not, what's floating on the top looks like fat, but
+
+[21:37] isn't, is a floated layer of stuff, and it could be broken up cell stuff, which is
+
+[21:42] phospholus. I doubt it. I doubt it. It could be some fat. anyway, air. So what happens is when you blend something. Or when you stir it or whisk it, you get air bubbles. And believe it or not, even under the force of 4000 times the force of gravity, air bubbles don't necessarily pop. And so you have a layer of stuff floating at the top of a lot of things after they spin, even if they don't have fat in them. And the way to get around that is to do a quick vacuum cycle to
+
+[22:09] deerate the product before you spin it. And if you do that, uh, pretty much you'll get crystal clear stuff on the top from the from the get go. Certain things are more apt to throw a thing on the top than others. Tomatoes, typically, will have a layer floating on the top. If you vacuum them, they won't. Certain things you can't get around it. Like coconuts have a lot of fat in them. And so if you blend those and don't get the air out, you get a mat, a thick mat floating on the top, which actually tastes good. Tastes good. Uh, but anyway, so that is my, uh, that is my theory, and um, that's, that's what's going on. That's how to avoid it Remember that, where were we spending that time that was crazy? Oh, no, also, when you're going to put stuff in a roto app. If you don't want it to boil over after you blend it, you put it in a vacuum machine, chamber vacuum machine, you deerate it. That's just, you know, standard procedure, but a lot of people don't don't do it. And then when they run the roto after the 1st time, it sprays all over the inside of the machine. Do you remember that time we had to deerate all of that, was it the habanero that almost killed us when we
+
+[23:06] deerated or was the horseradish? I think it was a horseradish? Oh my god. That sucked. lots of horrible times. Every day with Dave is a horrible day. Uh, right? Pretty well, no, just most. Back then, when we did everything ourselves. We were in the school and we were working out of a
+
+[23:26] trash room. I mean... It's like a 100 by 100 square foot. And it was like a billion. it was a 1000000000 degrees. Now, people, Nastasia, Nastasia hates me for a number of reasons, but
+
+[23:37] one that she detests more than any other is the fact that I am an insensate brute and that my body doesn't care what kind of temperature it's put in, whether you could freeze me
+
+[23:48] out. You could burn me, you could light my hands on fire. It just doesn't seem to bother me that much. Uh, and for some reason, uh, this is in uh, Nastasia's playbook, uh, the hallmark of a
+
+[23:58] poor uh, uh, a poor person, of a low quality individual. as we like to say. Uh, and uh, I can't help it. things don't bother me. But that trash room averaged. Uh, like 115 degrees because we were in the same room as the refrigeration units. I'm talking like all year, 115 degrees in that son of a gun. And here's the thing about me. Like, I don't mind any temperature if I'm working, but if I'm sitting in a trash
+
+[24:25] room, sweating into a keyboard, I want to kill everybody. Everybody, right? I mean, I could be outside in that weather, working, if I was working, if I was doing something, or cooking in a 1000000 degree, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, you know, Those were legitimate temperature readings. like 115. Remember that? Oh yeah. No, remember we like when we got those new thermometers, we were like, come on. And then we like, we calibrated them and we're like, no, it's really like it's 115 degrees in here. And let me tell you something. It wasn't like 115 Arizona style, which is still piss hot because I've been to Arizona where they're like, hey, you know, 100 degrees is legitimately not that hot in Arizona. It really isn't. You can go outside in a 100 degree weather and it's fine. You know what I mean? Because it's so freaking dry. Because it's not the heat, it's the humidity. But listen, at 115 degrees, people, it is hot. Now, in New York, it's 115 sweet, humid degrees inside of that trash box. Man, that sucked. remember that? We're sitting there spinning Agar gels, and I'm, oh, my God. Anyway, good times, good times. And that was back. but my favorite part about it was, I remember there was someone who wrote an internet article back when we were still doing the
+
+[25:38] blog. We're going to get that fixed again, right? The Jerry, the Christmas break, yeah. Yeah, Christmas break. We can get that fixed again. Back when we were going full bore on the blog, which we hope to again someday. I'm gonna get Piper to write for it, I think. Anyway. When we were doing that, I had a guy say, well, I don't have all
+
+[25:55] of like the awesome resources that Dave has. And Mustache and I read this and we burst out. We burst out laughing, right? We were laughing for like 20 minutes straight, 115 degree hot box with stuff. Everything is taped together with duct tape. Listen, I'm happy. I'm happy with everything. I'm totally happy. So this is not like, oh, poor little Rick, baby. You know what I mean? But like the fact of the matter is, is that everything we own is held together with duct tape. Right? The phone was duct taped in the wall. The phone was duct taped to the wall. That's my goal. My New Year's resolution, peoples, is to not be the guy whose box is duct taped together when he shows up to the party. You get a new box. Chip writes in about Kalustians. Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe will crap on Jack because he doesn't like us anymore. He's not showing up to the just kidding. I love Jack. Everyone loves Jack, right? Even though he insulted Joe's computer and I take umbrage. Have you been to Kalusian's recently? Kalusians, by the way, for those of you that don't haven't been in New York. Kalusians is kind of a well-known and amazing spice and ingredient shop. Um, I guess it started out as having a lot of, uh, Indian and that kind of, you know, subcontinent style ingredients. Um, and but now has just ingredients from everywhere all over the world. And chefs regularly make pilgrimages to Kalustians to kind of just browse the aisles and
+
+[27:15] see kind of what exists or what's something they haven't used before. And you can buy them in fairly small packages. A similar store for those of you. It's on the it's in the 20s on Lexington Avenue here in Manhattan. There's another store called dual specialty shop, which is dumb a name for no offense if anyone, no one that we're listening. But the dual specially shop is a really dumb name. It's over on 1st Avenue, I think, over downtown in the East Village, and they have, they're not as big, but they have a lot of interesting ingredients as well. So people go there searching for ingredients for bitters, for cooking, whatnot. Anyway, so that's what Kalustians is. and you know, great, great place. I went in for some spices and notice they have a large selection of modern ingredients. They are not listed in the website, so you have to actually go there to verify. Sorry. By the way, Kalushian's website, one of the world's worst websites. It's a horrible website. Horrible. No offense. Crap. It's crap. Horrible. It's impossible to search for things on their website. Anyway, um, uh, Anyway, just a few that I remember them having are
+
+[28:15] Kappa and Iota Carragain and Ultra Crips, Ultra Crisp from National Starch Corporation, National Starch. I wish anyone would have a name as good as National Starch. National starch. Um, and Malto Dextrum. Now, but the question is what kind? See, one of the problems with Kalustians is when they're bagging stuff like that, they don't necessarily write the provenance of the material on
+
+[28:34] it. So you don't know exactly what it is. That's one of the issues. anyway. But there are probably 2 shelving units full of these ingredients. So it is nice if you're in a pinch. Most were in the one ounce or 2 ounce bags. Uh, so good tip. I did know that, but I haven't mentioned it on air as a place you can walk in and get stuff. So it's good, good. I don't think dual specialty has those kind of ingredients, so you're going to go to
+
+[28:55] Klusians for that kind of thing. I also wanted to send you a picture of the turkey. I did this year. I saw it. You can't see it because you're listening on the radio, but it's nice looking turkey. Right? Good to me. anyway. Uh, in the smoker for about 2.5 hours. Wet. I like to mispronounce herb and call it herb. How does McGee say it? McGee? I think he says Herb. You think? Like Herb the guy? Whenever I say herb, I think Herb, like Herb, by the way, Nastasia and I sit. this is what we actually do for a living. We don't work on anything. We sit around and watch the YouTube of Herme the Elf getting his butt handed to him by the lead elf over and over. Both the original version and the full metal jacket version. both of them. It's an all time. look, rank and bass. It's crazy with all the weird, like, pagan weirdness that goes on, but
+
+[29:43] they got to love those shows. Anyway, back to back to this. Uh, with uh, in a smoker for about 2.5 hours, a wet herb rub under the skin. There were only 4 of us, so it went with a traditional cooking method as well. Thanks for the great podcast. Chip. Thank you and thank you for your picture of your turkey, right? Turkeys. Okay. We have some questions in from the Twitter. Ellen Nasser writes in, 3 bone prime rib for Christmas, cooked off sous vide. And the question is, off the bone. off the bone? 55 C, finishing a 550 oven for about 15, 20 minutes. Those are all questions. Here's the answer. That's actually like a compact Twitter question. Good. Twitter question. Here's the thing. If you're going to do it, typically, if you're going to actually cook one, what you'll do is you'll cut it off the bone, sear around, and then
+
+[30:32] this is what some people do, then re-tie it back to the bone, and cook it using the bone as
+
+[30:36] a, you know, kind of an insulator, protect it. You don't need to do that if you're going to do
+
+[30:41] it, CV. I don't, whether or not you pull the bone off is up to you, right? But typically, um, you, okay, now here's where I'm going to go against everything I've ever said. Just for easiness' sake, I would bag the sucker and cook it to 55, uh, 55 C. 55 is a good number. 55 C, 55 one, 55 two. Do nothing to it beforehand. This is where I'm going to sound crazy. Just like bag it in a zippy with some oil. Cook it off to 55 Let it cool down. Uh, you know, for quite a while, actually. And then throw it into your super hot oven for longer than 15 to 20 minutes. I would do it until you get a nice, nice, super crisp crust. You like prime rib rice does? Stas, what's your favorite part about prime rib? It smells like home. Oh, okay. Well, weird. I was going to say the crunchy outside parts that are overcooked along with the inside that's rare. So you don't want to skimp on producing those crunchy burnt fat things on the outside. So I would say do a 55, let it cool down for a minute and then a little bit longer in the oven at the super high temperature. When I did my turkey this year, I had it in there for like an hour and a half in a pretty hot oven because I, I, but I cooked it all the way through. So I wouldn't be afraid of overcooking the outside in a traditional way because we love
+
+[31:55] of that stuff. The one the worst prime rib I ever did was when I cooked it sous vide all the way through and didn't finish enough on the outside and it was too uniform in the middle. It was a horrible nightmare. You say we had a call? Yes. Color, you're on the air. Hi, my name's Peter Bell, Stray. Um, I live in Wisconsin, Milwaukee. I help run my family restaurant and I just graduated from CIA well about a year
+
+[32:20] ago and I'm looking to go back to school for food science and wondering if you could make
+
+[32:26] me like top 5 schools or just general advice on
+
+[32:30] that. So, like, when you say food science, do you mean actual food science, like a
+
+[32:34] PhD, or do you mean just kind of new techniques for use in restaurant? I think combination of both. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. Most of the actual food science, uh, places are focused on more
+
+[32:48] industrial, uh, industrial applications. And it's changing a little bit now, but the the issue is, is that there's very little money in worrying about problems that are only geared towards restaurants.
+
+[33:00] In other words, to fund real scientific research. That's changing a little bit. I would look at the kind of research chefs association, if you're interested in food science programs. I mean, I don't know who's currently the best. I mean, especially out where you are. I don't know what's currently the best. I mean, over here, I mean, obviously, Rutgers has a good program in food science because it's near where a lot of the flavor houses are. Um, you know, there's, um, There's also, uh, um, Cornell has an interesting food science
+
+[33:31] program, uh, you know, you might, you might want to look at, but I don't really know who's the best feeder for that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously, if you want to do winery analogy, Davis. You know, I don't know kind of what the kind of programs that they have. The other thing is, is that, um, you know, if you do some work in that,
+
+[33:46] like maybe get a master's, that's, you could then get a job being a, a chef or doing research work at
+
+[33:52] a, at a flavor house. We just met, you know, a bunch of them and they're kind of an interesting crew. Now, from a food, from a food tech for restaurant stuff, I mean, obviously, you know, we, we teach at the, at the FCI, we teach uh, low temperature sous vide work that's geared at chefs. 2 days in and out. It's not a food science class by any stretch. It's like a low temperature SUV'd. Chris Young is from Modernist Cuisine is starting up his program at Johnston Wales. Um, but, and, you know, Chris, Chris Loss, who's at CIA, is still doing some, is doing some work with that too, but I don't know what kind of classes they
+
+[34:26] offer. But it's all a question of what you're trying to do with it. Do you know what I mean? I don't know how much a food science program is going to help in a restaurant unless you're just a lover of knowledge, which case go for it. You know what I mean? I mean, that's where it gets me up in the morning is just liking knowledge. So. Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of one of the reasons I want to go back. It's like, I want to continue learning, you know, and with everything I learned from school. Now, I'm being a, let's go quiet to my, my family restaurant. I just, I kind of want to continue that. I'm only 23 and I feel like, I wouldn't really, like going to school here isn't, set
+
+[34:59] in my mind, I still want to travel and like, eat things and learn things, so that's, part of it
+
+[35:05] is well. Right. I mean, if, if you get, you know, another thing you can do, if you're interested in just like the, the, the restaurant side of it, you know, and this is what a lot of people I know do, they go, they work for someone in the
+
+[35:18] US, that they can get, you know, stage, basically, for someone who is doing this kind of work,
+
+[35:22] right? And then, uh, you know, so, you know, uh, Grant or, uh, you know, Paul Lee
+
+[35:31] Brant, someone. You know what I mean? And then, uh, after a while of staging there, they then get the recommendations to go work at like Noma or in Spain.
+
+[35:43] And then, you know, they make the, you know, they'll spend some while. So that's, you know, Fabulous, who's, you know, works with us for a long time. That's what he, you know, he worked with us for a while, then worked with Johnny Azini back when he was at Jean George for a long
+
+[35:55] time. And then, you know, spent a long time stodging at Noma in other places and traveled the world and has picked up, um, you know, if
+
+[36:03] you're, if you're young and if you can, you know, if you can do it, if you can live that lifestyle is a good way
+
+[36:08] to, to see what is current right now in kitchen. But you have to be willing to put your time in in each one of the kitchens for that. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Definitely. But it sounds like you're, and I mean, I guess that's kind of a fact I've been, I mean, I knew already, but I think I've been kind
+
+[36:23] of, making to myself that it isn't. Um, but thank you. This is very helpful. And by the way, that last the trepidation you're showing is very smart. Like, if you if you even think that you don't want to do that, then don't send yourself down that road.
+
+[36:41] Do you know what I'm saying? Because if you send yourself down that road and it starts, you start feeling like, you know, this wasn't the right move, it's a, it's a long road to be halfway down and find out that it wasn't the road you wanted to be
+
+[36:55] on. Do you know what I'm saying? Whereas, you know, if you're going to go take a program in a school like food science, you're learning all the time and it's not the same, it's not the same
+
+[37:04] sort. I don't think you'll feel the same sort of sense of crap if it's not the road you want to go down.
+
+[37:11] Do you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. And I guess I guess that's when I still need to decide. Right. Cool. Well, uh, well, good luck and I hope everything works out for you. All right, thank you very much. No problem. Okay. So, uh, at Class, I don't know at Cleft's
+
+[37:28] name, because at Class name is written in, um, Japanese characters that I don't understand on his on his or her, I don't know, Twitter feed. But, you know, one of our Twitter buddies. Can melatonin be used as an antioxidant in food, does it have any advantages? So melatonin is, you know, a hormone that I guess is made in the pineal gland. And, you know, it regulates sleep patterns and a bunch of other things. It's a powerful, also antioxidant. Uh, and it's sold as a dietary supplement here in the US. Um, but it's not, there's a strange rule in the U.S. and here it is. It's that if I like the rules for selling you something that you put into your body as a dietary supplement are a lot less
+
+[38:17] stringent, then the rules governing what you put into food. And it, like everything is, everything is completely back butt word on this kind of stuff. For instance, also, like, it's like the same thing where, uh, well, not the same, but the irritating the way regulations work, you know, usinol and
+
+[38:36] iso usinol, which is clove oil, uh, is considered safe to
+
+[38:41] eat, but is not approved to use as a fish anesthetic. the dumbest thing in the world. So when we use it, we have to say it's a spice. dumb. anyway. But the other side, actually can be crazy, is that things that aren't on the GRAS, i.e. generally
+
+[38:55] regarded as safe, which is the main list of things, can be used as dietary supplements.
+
+[38:59] So you can buy melatonin as a dietary supplement. And you could grind it up and add it to a beverage. But there was an energy drink manufacturer
+
+[39:10] who was making a relaxation, blah, blah, blah, that added, doped it with melatonin, not just things that contained melatonin, but doped it with melatonin. And they got a warning letter, saying that, you know, you shouldn't do that.
+
+[39:23] It was the company was innovative beverage, and they had these relaxation drinks that had melatonin, and it's not approved as a food additive. That said, I mean, I don't see why technically it wouldn't work. I don't know what the stuff tastes like. Have you ever taken them? I mean, no, I never taken it. I mean, the other thing is, you know, one thing to do, and I don't have time to, I didn't have time to do it before now, but
+
+[39:44] like, you could just buy some melatonin, grind it up and add it to some stuff that usually turns nasty, like apple
+
+[39:51] juice, and see whether or not it keeps the apple juice from, you know,
+
+[39:55] turning. But be aware that even though melatonin is passed fairly quickly
+
+[39:59] by the liver, according to what I read, it's like a one pass through the liver and it's out. Uh, you might make people sleepy. Sleepy time, right? Because it's supposed to be the relaxation thing. So if you want people, you know, passing out at your restaurant table. you know, anyway. So that's my, that's my feeling. But I, but I do not, I do not know and I, and I cannot, uh, what's the word? advocate. Uh, okay, so, uh, a couple things that uh, I'm uh, working on now. I sent out a Twitter question. Where can we get pig bladders? Because Piper saw Chef and Danielle use pig bladder? Pig bladder? And this, I started thinking about it again because we got a question. I don't know, about a month ago or a couple weeks ago about, um, not using plastic bags for sous vide work. And so I was interested because there's an old kind of natural on papillote technique where you use a pig bladder to, um, to hold things in while you cook them. And so I was wondering whether or not you could use a pig bladder to do some kind of
+
+[40:59] rudimentary, low temp work. Now, I mean, the problem, obviously, is that pig bladders, unlike plastic bags are semi-permeable, i.e., things can travel in and out of it. In fact, the whole notion of a semi-permeable membrane was discovered with pig bladders by a guy
+
+[41:17] named, you know, Jean Antoine Noyer, who's a physicist in the 1700s. And, uh, you know, he was the person who noticed, um, that, uh, pig bladders slowly pass things in and out and there was other experiments afterwards that showed that certain uh, things can migrate across pig bladder.
+
+[41:35] So the question is, if you were going to cook for short periods of time, I think you could probably cook in a pig bladder without too much flavor crossing back and forth or too much loss or too much kind of, uh, the fact that it's poaching because the numbers that I read, um,
+
+[41:49] were that they, the transfer rate across pig bladder membranes is fairly slow. You could also probably coat the pig bladder in something that would reduce the permeability even
+
+[41:59] more like zane or something like that, but then it wouldn't, you know, then that's kind of a pain in the butt. But I found a couple sources for pig bladders on the
+
+[42:07] internets, thanks to the folks on Twitter. We have 2 different sources of it that send in. So we're going to get ourselves some pig bladders, probably not before New Year, and we're going to do some low temperature
+
+[42:17] pay bladder work. How's that sound? Sounds good. Sounds good. And lastly, leave with this. I'm going to do some more lobster experiments. So for those of you that follow my lobster and nostalgia, like, oh, crap, one of that. But the last time I did lobsters experiments, stars. I did it in my house. didn't have to deal with it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm not. Do you even like lobster? Yeah, it's okay. What's your favorite crustacean? I don't know. You don't like crab, right? God damn it. Oh, ooh, didn't mean to curse. Crab is delicious. Oh, oysters. Oysters, oysters. Oyster, that's not a crustacean. That's a mollusk. You like oysters more than clams? Squid? Squid, also mollusk. Hmm, the none. Okay, no shrimp. No crab. Lobster. If I have to, a lobster roll. Jesus. Okay, so anyway, so keep you guys posting. It's good. So crab is delicious. I don't know if I mentioned this on soft shell crab, but I love me some soft shell crab. Do you ever prepare them? Do you know my favorite fact? I told you this a 1000000 times. My favorite fact about soft shell crabs? Because when you cut their eyes off, you have to cut their eyes off with the one with their brain. They bred themselves. So you cut their eyes off, you pull up the little tab in the back, you rip the gills out, you put it down, you throw it in the
+
+[43:38] breading, and they bread themselves. That is consideration. That is a considerate food stuff. Yeah? Anyway, well, we'll fill you in on my lobster test next time. Cooking issues.
+
+[43:56] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[44:09] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and
+
+[0:07] international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:55] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:10] Brooklyn, on Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday, except for next Tuesday and the Tuesday after that, because this is our Christmas and New Year's
+
+[1:17] episode, here, as usual, with Nastasia Hammer Lopez. Join in the studio with, at least temporarily,
+
+[1:22] Erin from Heritage Radio, Jack and Joe. How you guys doing? We're great. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, Jack, how was the Puerto Rico? That was awesome. Yeah, what do you do besides drinking and eating? What do you eat? What did I eat? I eat a lot of chicken and rice, obviously. But I went to Viacas, which was which was amazing. is that? It's an island off the eastern coast of Puerto Rico, which was, it's mostly a wildlife refuge, and it was protected by the government up until 2003, and then it became open to tourists. So still not too many people have caught on. It's pretty remote and incredible. Is that the one where the other half of it, the shooting range? Navy testing grounds, sort of. Yeah, bomb. Yeah. So we save the wildlife on half of the island and then bomb them into oblivion on the other half? There was a hilarious sign that said, no swimming in this area, live explosives. Nice. Like, okay. Well, you know, we used to have that over here for those of you that haven't visited our coast. When I was a kid,
+
+[2:15] it used to be, they were still finding World War 2 munitions off the coast of Sandy, what is it, Sandy Hook in New
+
+[2:21] Jersey. Any New Jersey that's out there? You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, there used to be all sorts of explosive stuff left over from World War 2 just sitting in the middle of
+
+[2:28] the, uh, in the middle of the bay there, uh, because I guess they would drop them off the shists when they were loading. Nice. You know, quickly, I had a question. I almost called into cooking issues. All the red wine I was served in Puerto Rico, right? Right. was all served chilled. Well, how chilled? Like pretty, like white wine chilled. Really? Yeah. And it was across the board. everywhere we went. Was it hot? Was it hot as hell? No, not really. No? Well, you know, the French typically serve red wine much colder than we
+
+[2:55] like, we have a habit in the US, you know, except at the, like, you know, even at even at the higher levels of dining here in the US, we have a habit of serving our red
+
+[3:03] wines a lot warmer than they would in, let's say, France or other parts of Europe. And you know, certain red wines, like the 1st couple times I went over there, were actually very, it was kind of difficult for me to get accustomed to. Like, for instance, over there, you know, Gigandas, they serve much, much colder in France than we would have it here. So much so that I got an argument. Don't get an argument with a French waiter. not going to help you out any. But, um, But yeah, I mean, I wonder whether or not it's particular. I mean, you know, have you had like the red wine in France and thought it was too cold or? No, yeah, I have had red wine in France and it was not like this. So this is just like a Puerto Rican thing. Was it overly tannic? No? No, not necessarily. Was it enjoyable? It wasn't bad. I just, I like my reds room temp. Yeah, I mean, I like it, you know, I like it on the Colts. My wife likes it a little colder than I do, the red wine. Like, you know, she'll she'll pull a Cesare and drop an ice cube in to, you know, kind of like, you know, if it's
+
+[3:53] at, because my house gets really freaking hot because I have the old, uh, you know, the old radiator heaters
+
+[3:58] that uh, that make it like a 1000000 degrees inside your house in the wintertime, so you have to open the window. You know what I'm talking about? Yes. Yeah. Anyway. Sorry, we got a caller. Oh, got a color? All right, caller, you're on the air. Okay, hello, Dave. This is Nell from the Brooklyn Pharmacy. How are you? I'm doing right. Oh, good. I have a question for you. Shoot. Okay, I'm trying to make red velvet,
+
+[4:21] whoopie pies without using a ton of nasty red food coloring. And I've purchased online beet powder, which is a
+
+[4:31] beautiful sort of vermilion fuchsia color. But I'm trying to figure out how to boost the color in
+
+[4:39] my, in the, my little Whoopi pie cakes. I have, what I read online was that, um, part of the reason they started calling them red velvet is because it was a chemical reaction, between cocoa
+
+[4:52] powder, and an aftis. So we have soco powder, and we're using natural rather than Dutch process, um, and buttermilk. Hmm. Well, I mean, the, yeah, the, I mean, the color of the Dutch process is actually because of the alkaline nature,
+
+[5:09] right? The super dark thing is a is a result of the alkali processing in the Dutch process stuff. But yeah, so red. I never thought about it. The beet powder doesn't add a flavor to it. No. And how much chocolate, how much chocolate do you have in it? Uh, it has like a cocoa, yeah. Yeah, it's a substantial amount, enough that you can taste it, but it's not. It's not like a devil's food. It's not overwhelmingly chocolatey, but you can taste that there's cocoa in there, which I like. I can kind of don't want to ease off the cocoa powder either. And what's the liquid in it? Is it is it buttermilk? Buttermilk, yeah. Right. But there's soda in it, correct? Yes, and baking powder. 22 to one baking powder just soda. Right. I mean, like, typically for every cup of buttermilk or so, you're going to have about a teaspoon of soda and then probably twice that of
+
+[6:00] powders. Is that true or no? No, in this instance, it's a half teaspoon of soda and a teaspoon of powder. Per cup of buttermilk? Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Well, so here's what, I mean, obviously the soda is neutralizing the buttermilk. I mean, that's what that, that's what the whole soda buttermilk reaction is, right? Okay, right. Right. So, but beats, I'm assuming that beats, the more alkaline they go, I think beat coloring is an
+
+[6:27] anthocine and like most of those other pigments like that. So the more acidic they are, the redder they are, right? This is why, you know, in a pickled beet, they're so bright, bright red, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then the more alkaline it's going to go, the more purple and more blue, it's going to shade. Now you're always because of the brown counter shading of the powder, cocoa powder. You're always going to stay on the redder side rather than the more blue and purple
+
+[6:53] side, but I mean, I'm wondering whether or not you're shading it. I wonder whether or not you're shading it more towards the, um, more towards the alkaline, but that ratio. That shouldn't do it too much because typically you're adding a lot more soda than that. typical ratio in like a pancake batter would be like a teaspoon of soda per, per, uh, you
+
+[7:15] know. Right. So, you know, and that, that, you know, I've usually, although I've never done the experiments, taking that as a fairly, you know, like, you know, one-to-one kind of swap.
+
+[7:25] Now, um, you know, on the other hand, it's like, you know, if you have a lot of residual acid left over from the buttermilk, it can
+
+[7:31] taste, you know, you're, you're unused to actually drinking buttermilk, uh, straight, but I'm wondering whether any residual acid
+
+[7:37] would, and I have to think about it. Like, you've tried adding some extra acid to it to see whether or not just whether it shades up or down or no. No, but I was thinking the next thing I might do is add a touch of vinegar. Just a little, tiny bit, like not enough to flavor it, but perhaps enough
+
+[7:55] to boost the acidity, a tiny bit. Right. I mean, vinegar, obviously, is, is, um, what's the word I'm looking for? volatile. So, you know, some of that's going to volatilize off during the, during the, the, the bake. Of course, I don't know, you know, I don't know, you know, when the when the business is done. I mean, like typically anthasignans, when you mess with them, you can shift their color even after they've been messed with quite substantially.
+
+[8:19] Also, I am not sure. I mean, obviously beats retain their color when they're cooked. So, yeah. So you just want to, like, you just want to keep it on the on the acidic acidic side. I've never actually made the red velvet per like actual instructions. It takes a boatload of color. They put a whole boatload of red in that? Oh, it takes so much. It's really, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. That was, well, that was how I read something online. That was how they came about, is it was, was a means by which they could shell, um, extract some food coloring. Right. So you were meant to, you know, I think the original recipe, you can find this online somewhere. You were meant to dump an entire bottle of red thread coloring into the cake to make it red. That's great. That's great salesmanship right there. That's, you know. Uh, yeah. You know? Yeah. It's like, you know, when you enter contest, it's all about, you know, how many boxes of Rice Krispies can you dump into a recipe? You win, you know? If your recipe requires 13 boxes of Rice Krispies, then you've won. But if I was going to do this, I would A, I would test, I would make regular vanilla cakes flavored with beet powder, not even vanilla, just like white cakes, flavored
+
+[9:25] with or with the addition of the beet powder. I would probably do 3 different ratios and then, you know, for flavor to see where you are, then take the highest one
+
+[9:36] that you could do without a major flavor impact. And then I would push the acid over three. So I would bake probably a total of 6 cakes in a white cake recipe. Like small. like you don't have to bake a whole batch. You know what I mean? Like, in fact, you could make one batter and then, you know, do, you know, 3 at a time and do a small test.
+
+[9:56] And then and then on the basis of those results, you know, try try to do one that you think is going to be way too little, one that you think is going to be way too
+
+[10:05] much and one that you think is somewhere in the middle. And then usually within a couple of iterations of recipes like that, you can hone in on exactly where the magic number is, which is a technique that we use when we're testing out low temperature cooking
+
+[10:16] recipes the same way. We try to make sure that, oh, that one's too weak. I know that one's too strong. Once you establish the boundaries, then you can hone in very, very, very quickly.
+
+[10:27] It's just like that old game of, uh, uh, what's that game called, nastache, where you have to guess a number and you have to guess, you guess higher and then lower? Is there name for it? I don't know. No, it's like a, yeah, county fair game where you count, you know, you guess the number of beans in the jar. Right, right. but you know, you want to go in the in the least number of steps. So you want to make sure that you, that you go too high, too low, then you cut that in the middle and find out where that is, and then you keep, you keep going. And usually you can get very accurate, you know, results on one or 2 variables within about 3 or 4 tests. Do you know what I mean? Assuming they're normal variables and it's not like some strange hydrocolid interaction. But I'd be curious if we tweet tweet the tweet at cooking issues and let us know what happened because I'm curious about the results of the beat test.
+
+[11:12] Okay, all right. All right, thanks for that. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Have a good one. You too. Good luck. I think the game's called Guess the number. Jag always likes, you know, the backhand, the backhand slap. He's just mad at me about the cold wine. Cold wine. Okay. Did you didn't have any good pork over there? Don't they don't all? Oh, yeah, of course. Do they do the zinc cooked pork there or is that a Jamaican thing? I think that's a Jamaican thing. But they're like these beach side shack things and we had a bunch of crispy pork skins. What do you call it? Why am I forgetting? Chicharone? Yeah, thank you. Chicharron. How do they do it there? Do they do it hyper crispy or fatty, fatty, crispy? Pretty fatty crispy. Yeah, like that. I like them all. There's no there's no real kind of kind of any sort of crispity, crunchy pork skin product that I find
+
+[11:57] objectionable. I kind of unless they're, you know, poorly done. Uh, but yeah, it's delicious. All right. Well, welcome back, Jack. What are you doing for what are you doing for the holidays here? I'll be sticking around here. Not too much. Yeah? What about you, Nastasia? I'm going home for 3 days Home is not... See, that's the thing. at what point in your life is home New York? Yeah, I know. The place that I grew up. Ah, yes, yes, all right. Okay. We have some questions in. This was actually to Nastasia. Christine doesn't care what we think, what I think. But anyway, she says, how's it going? This is an email, I guess, sent to actually to Erin, right? I'm hoping to get some advice from Dave as a Christmas present for my husband because apparently I'm an influence on him, which is, you know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Christine. Anyway, Ryan has my 27-year-old husband's been a musician and teacher for the past 10 years, but food has always been a big part of his
+
+[12:47] life, and he's recently realized that it's a passion he wants to pursue. He's been tearing through days podcasts, learning and experimenting with local and regional cuisine. We live in Singapore, and volunteering at soup kitchens to try out his chops. I really always wanted to go to Singapore. Yeah. Singapore here has like amazing. Yeah, my garden's going soon. Really? I mean, Singapore apparently has like, you know, obviously has like great, you know, street food. Like, apparently it's amazing. And apparently very, you know, easy to visit so long as you don't spit gum on the street, in which case you're getting to get whipped with a, you know, whipped dipped in horse urine. Anyway, uh, he has endless resources, but the biggest question on his mind right now is whether or not to go to culinary school.
+
+[13:25] We might be heading to Sydney in 6 months, and the most respectable, most reputable school he's found there is LeCordon Blue. And I don't know anything, by the way, about La Cordon Bleu in Australia, right? So I don't even know whether it's run by the same people or whether it's licensed out or anything like that. Just, you know, word. I don't know. Although we have some Australian, you know, I don't know if we still do. We had some Australian listeners. Maybe they can tweet into cooking issues and, you know, see what they what they think about that school and how it is. Anyway, while he's still trying to find his niche, he really enjoys using molecular gastronomy techniques and
+
+[13:56] is partial to comfort diner type food. Listen, uh, Christine, you know, I don't know, you probably don't, but like for all you out there, you know, I dislike the word molecular gastronomy intensely,
+
+[14:06] dislike it. I know what you mean though. I know what you mean. I know what you mean when you say. Just like answer my question. She says, answer my freaking question. I'm not into this stuff. Stop at the aside. Yeah, she's like, I don't really care. My husband wants to know. I don't really care Right? So this is the equivalent of like my wife asking this question. Yeah, all right. Oh, geez Stas. Stas loves Stas loves to give it to me. tell you what. Anyway, wait, okay, okay. The biggest question is whether or not to go to culinary school. Okay, let's just handle that right now. So your husband is a musician and a teacher. Now, here, I don't, again, I don't know how it works in, in Australia, but here in, uh, here in the US, there's a, you know,
+
+[14:46] obviously I, you know, taught at a culinary school for many years, uh, specifically technology at the French Culinary Institute, now the International
+
+[14:54] uh, Culinary Center. Uh, and many of my good friends, uh, and relatives and, you know, business partners like Dave
+
+[15:01] Chang and and why they Dufrayne actually went to that school. And it's an argument that I get into constantly with chefs about whether or not you should go
+
+[15:10] to culinary school. Now, there's a huge generation of chefs here that say, no, you shouldn't go to culinary school because it costs a lot of money and you can just go work your ass off instead. Right? And that's the argument. And so, you know, and to which I always reply to them. Yo, name someone in your generation and by your generation, I mean, between 35 and 45, right? Name someone in that generation that's, you know, made a huge name for themselves here in the U.S. who didn't go to culinary school. And the fact of the matter is that almost all of them did. Right? Almost all of them in that generation did. Now, just take that, take that, that where it is. So there's a huge group of chefs who have gone anti-culinary school mainly because of the giant price tag associated with it. So they assume that the price tag is just too high. And here's the truth. Like if you expect to go pay a huge amount of money and somehow make that back as a line cook,
+
+[16:13] then, you know, I don't know that that necessarily is money well spent unless your parents are going to pay for a vocation that you're going to have for the rest of your
+
+[16:21] life, right? Would you say it's fair styles? The other issue, I think, that a lot of chefs here have in the US who are, you know, at the top, top level, you know, I'm not going to name any names in this, but, you know, you've spoken to a bunch of
+
+[16:34] them, is that a lot of people coming out of culinary school now are going into it because of the popularity that food has in the media these days.
+
+[16:43] And so there's an expectation among, uh, this is not me talking because this is, it's not me talking. But, you know, that there's an expectation, uh, among the younger generation, or even among career
+
+[16:56] changers, who are going to culinary school, that they're going to go to culinary school, they're going to come out, all of a sudden they're going to be doing interesting work in a kitchen, and they're, you know, or they'll get a TV
+
+[17:06] show or they'll get a this or they'll get a that. When really, most of the time, it is a
+
+[17:13] crazy, grueling, brutal job that, you know, 9 times out of 10 isn't glamorous. In fact, the glamour of it comes from, you know, just getting
+
+[17:24] brutalized day in day out with large amounts of work for very small remuneration. So that's the kind of argument. I think that, that, you know, a certain group of chefs will make against cooking schools. But however, I don't think they see the other side of it, which is there are a whole group of people, for instance, who might not necessarily want to be a line cook, want to be exposed to a professional cooking school for another reason.
+
+[17:47] Maybe they want to own a restaurant without having to go through all this stuff and they have the money to start a restaurant, right? It's a valid reason to go to cooking school. Maybe my sister-in-law, Miley, who now runs the Food Network magazine. Uh, you know, decided to go to cooking school so that she could be a better um, food journalist. And it certainly has, you know, served her in good stead. She's had, you know, been nothing but, you know, going up since the moment she
+
+[18:12] went, she's going up beforehand because she's an incredibly driven, talented person. But in other words, but the school served her in good stead. So you just have to really analyze why it is you want to go to cooking
+
+[18:22] school and what you hope to get out of it and go in there with your eyes wide open of what exactly you're paying for.
+
+[18:27] And I think that's the, you know, that's the, the, the key to it. fair? Yeah? Okay. Kind of a long-eded answer. But it's a question, it's an important question. I mean, obviously my livelihood was based on cooking schools. And so when you go, if you take my course, for instance, on low temperature and sous vide cooking at the cooking school, you know, I think that was worth
+
+[18:49] it. I think that I don't forget what we charged for it or at the school charge for it. I mean, it wasn't cheap. It was expensive, but we gave you a lot of value for it. I mean, the other thing is, you know, the reason cooking school is so expensive isn't really that people are getting, I mean, that I know of, people aren't getting astoundingly rich off of the cooking
+
+[19:06] school. It's that there's, there's a lot of bodies that have to be hired to, you know, produce a lot of food that isn't necessarily getting sold at, you know, market rate. And, you know, we got to buy a whole boatload of chickens and we got to buy a whole boatload of, you know, it's
+
+[19:20] just, it costs a lot to run it. It's not that cooking schools typically, with the exception of something like CIA, which is actually a dot EDU, are typically for-profit, but that doesn't mean that they are
+
+[19:30] rapacious, right? Okay. Other questions include, is there such a thing as too old to become a chef? Hey, let's hold real quick. We have a caller. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is Josh. There's actually 2 of us here. We're calling to settle a dispute. Maybe you can help us. Uh-oh. Okay. Um, so at your suggestion, we're now using the DMT sharpening stone. Okay. I feel like it does okay for me. My buddy, as a, was it a Glaston? I'm saying yeah. I'm saying, nice, and he feels like it gets sharp, but it doesn't stay sharp with this stone. But is there any beef to
+
+[20:11] that or what would be causing that? So, okay, so for the for those of you that don't know what the hell we're talking about. DMT is a diamond, sharpening stone, and I use it, are you using the interrupted red green? I'm sorry? You're using the 2 sided red, green with the interrupted pattern? Yes. Yeah. Okay, so we're talking about a fine slash extra fine, which doesn't really have much meaning, but you can go look up the equivalent micron values
+
+[20:39] or the abrasives on it. Sharpening stone. And what I like about this particular stone is that it's extremely lightweight. It stays flat forever, doesn't need to be trude. And it's just in my mind, extremely easy to have and use. Uh, so it's not something that you have to like worry about and soak or like that's not really heavy in your kit. It doesn't, you know, so it's very low maintenance, I think, does a good job. The question we have here is, is someone is sharpening with it and thinks that they can get the stuff sharp or
+
+[21:09] doesn't necessarily stay sharp. The only way to really tell is the question is, what were they sharpening on before? Are they using like a Japanese, like a very, very fine great Japanese water stone? What were you, that's what we were using before. And my theory is that it gives like the illusion of sharpness by micro is grading it more than actually owning the
+
+[21:28] edge, much like a razor deal. Right. So, I mean, this is the big, the big argument in sharpening is what are you, what are you trying to, trying to accomplish, right? So for most rough and ready kitchen work, what you really are doing is not taking it to a super hyper fine polished
+
+[21:47] grit, and there are, it's very, very sharp, but there are some kind of
+
+[21:52] micro imperfections in the, uh, in the blade that help when you're cutting things like
+
+[21:59] tomatoes. And so, um, you know, there, and so, so in fact, you can have something that is, uh, that cuts very well, even that's not done,
+
+[22:10] uh, you know, sharpened to uh, the same grit, let's say, as, you know, it's not a polished grit. Is this making sense? Uh, so, However, the hyper polished ones, I have my doubts that most people with their hand are accurate enough to
+
+[22:26] do uh, to get an edge that is super, except for like a traditional Japanese
+
+[22:32] knife where it's fairly easy to get the, the angle exactly right. But, you know, are good enough to get a hyper polished edge that's so true along it that is also at the right angle that it's not going to get rolled if you take it to a
+
+[22:44] hyper hyper polished edge. I don't know, it's an interesting an interesting fact. like, you know, someone someone would have to settle it with a microscope and just look at it. I mean, I became several, you know, years ago, especially as people started ruining my knives by picking them up and using them for brutal tasks, that I was
+
+[23:02] fine only going to the level of grit that you have on the, on the, you know, the finest part of that DMT, DMZ, or whatever it is, the Diamond Stone, right? Because it's easier for me just to do two, three swipes at the beginning of a prep session than it is for me to worry about the
+
+[23:20] hyper polish. Now, I used to go, I used to use an edge pro. I don't know if you know that system. Uh, Edge Pro, you can go down to extremely fine, highly polished grits and have
+
+[23:31] with very, very accurate edge angles. You ever use that system? It's like a guide, right? Yeah, it's a guide on a rod and you set the angle, extremely precisely. And then you just go through all of your knives that are at that at those edge ratios, and you can take it down to, you know, you take it down
+
+[23:50] to basically to almost like to below toothpaste. You can go up to mirror polish on that thing very quickly. And I used to use that except for I found that I just wasn't sharpening my knives as much because I had to bust the equipment out and do it. And yes, you know, you'd have those crazy hair splitting stuff. Now, so I used to do... I used to leather strop everything as well after I was done because, you know, I was also using a straight razor at the time and, you know, and so it's just something that was part
+
+[24:18] of part of my repertoire, but I found that it was just, it was too much for me to keep going all the time doing it. And then I moved to the Diamond Stone and found that my average sharpness was increasing just because my maintenance sharpening was so fast.
+
+[24:31] Does that make sense or no? What if the leather stropping do exactly? Is that removing metal as well? I think so. I think I think what it's actually doing more. And I've never really had anyone, you know, I just, it was something I started doing because, you know, some old timer told me to do
+
+[24:47] it. Uh, I think what it's actually doing is, you know, if you were to look at the edge,
+
+[24:52] um, it would be fine kind of breaks in it. And I think, remember when you're stropping, you're stropping the opposite direction that you would normally sharpen, you're,
+
+[25:00] you're, you're scraping the blade, uh, you're scraping the edge. you know, you know what I'm saying. the opposite direction. And I think what you're doing is aligning it better. I think what it's really doing is aligning it. Similar, but in a more gentle fashion than a steel wood, even though you're in a steel, you're going in the
+
+[25:16] 4 direction, a strop, you're going in the backward direction. I never used to compound my strap, like it compounded once and then like over the years. I just kept on using it without adding more compound to it. And it really made a huge difference. Because, you know, the test that I, you know, I always do the same test is I take a relatively flimsy sheet of paper, hold
+
+[25:37] it and see whether I can just put my knife through the piece of paper and had the paper fall into 2
+
+[25:40] pieces because it's an easy way to find nicks in your blade. You know, even like micronix. You know, you would take it, but that cutting that paper also can, you know, misalign your edge a little
+
+[25:51] bit. So then what I would do is I would do my sharpening, cut the paper and then strop it right afterwards and then I was good to go. That's what I used to used to do. So I always just had a leather, you know, a veg tan leather strop hanging, uh, uh, you know, next to
+
+[26:03] my next to my salamander and just, beforehand. So can I can I reiterate the question or just phrase it differently? Yeah. Does the tool you're, with the tool you're using to sharpen your knife, change how your knife held an
+
+[26:18] itch? Uh, yes, I think that's true. I think that's true, but I think it depends. I think in other words, I think it can be true. I don't think it's necessarily true, but I think it can be true. I, in other words, I, what I don't know is whether or not an edge that's taken to a lower grit that has, you know,
+
+[26:37] what, what is commonly called in the, in the, in the, you know, sharpening world
+
+[26:41] microserrations. I don't know whether those edges are any more or less long lasting than an actual polished edge. I think it is true that you can probably shoot for a polished edge versus a
+
+[26:51] microservated edge. Does that make sense? Sure. So I'm kind of taking it in between. I'm taking it in between. taking an in-between position there. But, you know, there's I agree with what you're saying. So I think that if you could have a diamond. Diamond sharpening surface that was as the same amount of grit as a stone, a super fine one, and you actually got a fur on it, and then
+
+[27:18] shave that fur off. It would be the same. Right. But what I'm saying with this, with this, the one that we're using, it seems like it's really
+
+[27:26] sharp because it's really micro serrated. Well, but then the microcurations are easily like eliminated and you're left with like not that sharp of
+
+[27:37] a actual edge. By the way, it is actually really... It is a, it is a fine grit, not as fine as the finest water stone. However, they do make an even finer one that I don't have. It's just more expensive and doesn't come into dual in a dual grit, dual grit scenario. I mean, just to throw an extra thing out, throw it into it. There's an old book that came out, I think, in the 90s that is mainly outdated in terms of the theory behind it. But it's called the Razor's Edge Book of Sharpening, and it was by a person who is a consultant to the meat cutting industry, and his
+
+[28:11] his gimmick used to be, he would shave, he would sharpen a double bit axe, and then shave with it. And so he holds the Guinness record for shaving himself in record time with a
+
+[28:21] double bit axe. He's probably the only idiot that's ever sharpened his face with a double, you know, shaved his face with
+
+[28:26] double bit axe, but there you go. And his theory of sharpening is actually, if you want long-lived edges, and I think people still advocate this, although not as much, is
+
+[28:36] you do 2 different angles. Your final sharpening is at a less steep angle. And I don't even know whether people still practice this. I still do it kind of intuitively that you really want 2 different edges. The one is the hyper, the hyper thin edge, you know, that, you know, is down. You know, it used to be like, you know, very kind of wide, you know, like, you know, 30 or so, but everyone's gone down to like 17 and, you know, below now,
+
+[29:02] but, and then you'd put a slightly more shallow one in it that's a lot
+
+[29:06] tougher. Uh, you know, and those that sharpening technique was written for the kind of lower quality steels that
+
+[29:15] were, at that point, still the highest end of knife that most people had in the 90s. So the newer steels probably can take an actual finer edge all the way along without shattering and pitting. But, you know, I don't know, take that for what it is. his point was that a longer, you're going to get a much longer lasting, a sharper edge, if your very last sharpening is at, you know, a more
+
+[29:37] oblique, oblique angle, but a very small oblique angle right at the cutting edge, does that make sense or no? Totally makes sense. Yeah. But, you know, you might want to take a look. Again, I haven't read that book in in a decade or more. But, you know, at the time it was, you know, a revelation of me, but my feeling is probably it's outdated at this point. Okay, thank you a lot. Thank you very much. All right, thank you. Uh, okay, so uh, questions. Again, from Christine. How about a quick break? Oh, all right. Come back. We'll come back with cooking at you.
+
+[30:16] This is Fish Is Fish Is Vodka by the meatballers on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[30:32] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. We support Heritage Radio Network, because all you folks listening are so genuine, so dedicated to serious
+
+[30:47] food, so much a part of what this country needs to strive to become.
+
+[30:51] People like you are few and far between. And it's obvious to us at Fairway that we've got to stick together. Our desire is that the word gets out about heritage radio network, in its support for serious food, foodstuffs that offer memorability and timelessness,
+
+[31:07] authenticity and rarefied quality. This country grew too fast to have established any degree of a heritage. Europe had centuries to develop one. America has not. Heritage Radio Network serves to hasten the evolution of a society that often appears
+
+[31:23] coarse and uninterested. For more information, please visit fairwaymarket.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. Okay, more questions for Christine. Is there such a thing as too old to become a chef? Well? No. Uh, not. You know, I know someone, uh, no. No, but there, this take this. There are a lot of chefs out there who are prejudiced against people who are starting later in their career and just be aware of the fact that there is a lot of prejudice out there in the community because, um, you know,
+
+[32:00] there, there's, um, a lot of chefs want to be able to beat on
+
+[32:05] people who are in their kitchens in terms of uh, time and labor and their feeling is that, you know, people who are getting a later start aren't going to stand there on their feet for 12 hours,
+
+[32:16] uh, you know, and take the heat of the kitchen and, you know, take all of that stuff. They're not going to put up with it as well as, you know, as a really young person.
+
+[32:24] But I think that in general, that's a bad, it's a bad thing to do. It's a bad, it's a bad thing to assume about someone. You should take everyone on their own personal merits. You know, my, my grandpa, who, you know, he was kind of a jerk, but, you know, when he was 60,
+
+[32:41] 5, he would go out into the lawn and, you know, wrap a cloth around his head, you know, rip giant rocks out of the
+
+[32:47] ground and then do a backflip. He could have kicked the snot out of any 18-year-old prep cook coming, you know, through most
+
+[32:54] kitchens, and he would have done it all day, just to make you look bad because that's the kind of guy he was. So I think, you know, there's no such thing as too old. There are people who, as they, the majority of people as they get older, aren't going to have the stamina, but it's not the age, it's just, it's
+
+[33:10] just that's the way most people are. What do you think? Ferris does? Two, if there's only one kitchen gadget, you can have, what would it be and why? Well, I'd get an immersion circulator. Uh, you know, bang. I would get an immersion circulator because that's going to change the way you cook and it's going to allow you to do things that you couldn't otherwise do. If you already have an immersion circulator, and for some reason you don't own a Vitaprep blender, I would go buy that. Uh, if, you know, those are the 2 main things, uh, you know, that I have at home that most people don't have. If you're rich, I'd get a Paco jet. I love that thing or a vacuum sealer. But even if you're not rich, I would go out and get a Vita prep or an immersion circulator. You know, you know, do you have a Vita prep, yes, does? You want one though, right? Everyone wants a vite of prep. You know what? If the people, the only people who don't want Vita Preps. are people who don't have one. They're like, why do I need that? Because as soon as you have one, you're like, oh, anyway. Uh, you know, and if you have a lot of space, get liquid nitrogen. It's not really a gadget. But, you know, safety, safety with liquid nitrogen. And three, what are your thoughts on turducking? Turducking is where, you know, you stuff, you know, a bird inside of a bird, typically a turkey, then a chicken, then a duck.
+
+[34:19] What are your thoughts on tur ducking? Is there a secret to gain to cook more evenly? Yes. First of all, do not arrange the meats in the way that is standard. It's a bad arrangement of meats. The way that they do it, typically is they put sausage in between all the layers of meat and then just overcook the entire
+
+[34:34] thing, just overcook the hell out of it. Uh, and then assume that the grease from the sausage is going to keep everything tasting
+
+[34:40] good. you know, and juicy. What you want to do is go turkey, then chicken, then duck. and you want to cook it with an immersion circulator, meat glue it together, debone it, meat glue it together, and cook it at roughly
+
+[34:55] 64, 65 until the center of it, Celsius, until the center of it's about 57 where the duck is. You could put a sausage layer in between the chicken layer and the duck layer, and that sausage layer will take up the temperature difference between what you want the chicken to be and what you want the
+
+[35:11] duck to be. And you should be able to get 65 on the turkey, 64 on the chicken, between 64, 63,
+
+[35:19] and um, and like 58 on the, on the sausage, and then 57 on the, 5758 on the duck. Pull it out, fry it off, and you should be good to go. Just make sure that you dry off the skin so that the skin gets all nice and crispity. Crispity. And that's it, right? Good? Okay. Eric, who writes in? Uh, he's uh, who pineapple, which is an awesome uh, uh, what's that called? Twitter handle. Who? Who? Who pineapple? U pineapple. Okay. Hi, Dave. looking to make the fries from your blog. And by the way, I know the blog is broken. It is not my fault. We're trying to get control of it, and I've been told that the person who's going to work on it, swearing on a stack of Bibles. They're going to get that sucker fixed over the New Year's thing of a blap, right? True? Okay. So I know it. Anyway, looking to make the fries from your blog. I recall 14 minutes cooking in a blanch and then 2 frying. What's the temp on the fry? Okay, so my current fries are not the ones that did on the blog. I still use the enzyme. I do half inch fries now because I like the half inch fried better. So I cook it for a little bit longer. I cook it until I can't stand it anymore. First, well, 1st you soak it in the enzyme. Actually, you know, at home, I don't have the enzyme as much. So I've been doing it the normal way and they've been good. Here's the issue. The temperature which you fry depends on how much you overcook the them to begin with. The less you overcook them, and especially if you're not soaking them in enzymes beforehand. You want to do your initial fry at a lower temperature and fry it for longer. Why to get more moisture out of the out of the potato? So what you would do is you would take the fries,
+
+[36:59] uh, you would blanch them in uh, in water, right? And then you dry them off with a fan or in a convection oven to get the surface moisture off. Now, if you're doing a 3/8 inch or smaller fry, then the drying step doesn't need to be force dried.
+
+[37:16] You can just let it flash off some steam, especially if you've done the enzyme soak. If you haven't done an enzyme soak, right? You need to get more water out of there to get the crunchiness on it. What you're going to want to do is make sure that you dry them off, let them cool down under forced air so that the moisture
+
+[37:31] leaves. With a half inch fry, even with an enzyme soak. You're gonna want to blast some of that moisture off. Now, depending on how overcooked the fry is, you're going to want to adjust your 1st fry temperature. Now at home, because I don't have the time to do the full procedure necessarily, because I never know I'm making french fries until it's too late, I'll omit the enzyme step, and I will just turn my fryer, initial fry temperature down
+
+[37:53] to like, you know, 300, 270, uh, uh, 315 Fahrenheit, right? And then what you do is the initial fry. It's not a time on the initial fry. You're waiting for a crust of form. You don't want it to go dark, right? You want them to stay blonde. You know, they can take a little bit of color, but not a lot, but you want to lift the basket out and keep tapping them. And as soon as they form a nice hard crust. That's when you pull the fries out of the 1st fry, right? And the longer you can go, the more moisture you're getting rid of and the crunchier you're going to get on the 2nd time of the fry, you just want to don't do it too much. In other words, don't get too much moisture. You could go all the way to what we call a hollow fry, which I don't like. But, you know, you probably won't do it on a half inch fry. Then immediately after you pull them out, the crust will get ruined by the moisture from the potato
+
+[38:42] leaving and they'll go soggy, and then you crisp them up on a 2nd fry at roughly 360 degrees Fahrenheit,
+
+[38:47] till they are crunchy, crunchy, crunchy, and brown, right? Yes, yes. You know what? Nastasia does not like french fries. Oh, yours are good though. Oh, thank you. Oh, that's very sweet. Are you is this this party? Are you starting news? So we have a New Year's resolution, people. And the New Year's resolution is Nastasia is not going to purposely say things to piss me off, and I'm going to try to yell and scream less. That doesn't sound cool. Wait, which one doesn't sound cool? Both. No, I vote for both of them. You only get an hour of it a week. That's true. I mean, like, for you. Yeah. You know, you know, I was, I was, I was 6 feet 4 before I started working with
+
+[39:23] Nastasia and the anger has compressed me into, into 5 foot 10 homunculus. Anyway, okay. Homunculus. Okay, uh, Gene Doe writes in. At cooking issues. Can you carbonate solidified fruit juice gelatin? Yes. When you're doing it, the way to do it is to put it into the way I do it, is I put the gelatin into a soda bottle, right?
+
+[39:46] I use a high percentage gelatin. The reason is otherwise it's going to get torn apart, right? And then you wait until it gets syrupy, right? But not set. And then you shake it at a very high pressure. So you're talking like 75 PSI or something like that. The bottle is a real dicey, right? So you shake it at those temperatures at those pressures. You get a very high carbonation level. 75, you know, something like that, PSI, then you chill it in ice water until it sets at that high pressure. And then you cut the bottle open with a serrated knife to be
+
+[40:19] careful. Uh, you know, to vent it 1st and then, uh, but you know, actually, you know, anyway, cut it with scissors or serrated knife. And then you can get the gelatin out. But as soon as you break the gelatin, it explodes itself from the internal pressure. But yeah, I used to make a champagne gelée like that. But, you know, sometimes it can be really prickly. The carbonation at those pressure levels trapped on the inside of the stuff can be very, very prickly.
+
+[40:43] But anyway, yes, you can do it. Ryan Santos writes in at cooking issues, looking for sous
+
+[40:49] vide, temperature, and time for wild venison leg, looking not for a pulled meat result, but more steak-like.
+
+[40:54] Well, have I done wild leg before? Have that done wild leg before? The question is, is, you know, how much connective tissue there is in it and how easy it's going to be to render out.
+
+[41:05] And the other issue on the particular piece of meat is whether or not it's going to go kind of livery gamey. You know, I would say go low, you know, if you want it to be more steak-like, go low, because the longer you cook something, the lower, you know,
+
+[41:21] the lower the temperature that you need to go, obviously. So I would say you could probably be somewhere in the 56, you know,
+
+[41:28] 55, 56. Assuming it works, let's say, like, uh, assuming its toughness level is somewhere near like a short ribbon, not like a lamb leg,
+
+[41:36] uh, which is a lot more tender, I would assume, then you could do something like 50-56 uh, Celsius for, you know, like a day. You know, we did yak, but not the leg. We did it for a day at 56 and it was good, but it was gamey because, you know, it took on kind of a gamey, a gamey note, but I don't have any experience with long cooking on
+
+[41:57] the on the leg, but it was not going to get any tougher at those temperatures, it's going to break down. Some meats that are that are wild stay tough even when you do long cooking. Like, I was really surprised that the lion meat, even though we didn't overcook it. But yeah, don't get me started. Don't get me started anyway, but they get as lion meat and it stayed tough even though long cooking and bear
+
+[42:17] was, but we weren't cooking the leg. So I apologize. If anyone out there, hunters, and I've said, everyone who hunts should get themselves an immersion circulator right now before hunting season is over so that they can just do something other than chili with all of the meat that they get that they otherwise turn into
+
+[42:33] tough, you know, or sausage, they can actually get some steak cuts out of these things. And I, you know, I wish that there was, and there probably is. It's just I'm not connected to it. I wish there was some sort of hunter's blog for, you know, low temperature cooking, you know, or
+
+[42:49] some sort of site where hunters... You know, we have a hunting show that's going to debut in the new year right before cooking issues. Really? I have to make that plug. Yeah. Wild game domain at 11 on Tuesdays. Do they own a circulator? Potentially. He a chef. He's a culinary instructor at ice. as well. So, yeah, I don't know. He's been doing some venison recipes. maybe we can ask him next time. Yeah, or maybe, you know, if he doesn't already, oh, see, he probably already knows about low temp cooking, then, if he's an instructor at ice, our enemy school, just kidding.
+
+[43:18] Uh, but the, um, uh, I should say rival enemy is strong. Uh, but the, uh, yeah, I'd love I'd love to know. All right, good. So we'll talk to him. We'll talk to him in the new year. Okay. Uh, LA Nasser writes in, uh, what is the minimum percent alcohol
+
+[43:33] that'll allow me to keep a bottle of whatever in the cabinet versus the fridge, example, uh, uh, Falernum or,
+
+[43:41] or Violette, things like that. You know, that's a very interesting question. You know, spoilage of certain, certain, and I'm working on this a
+
+[43:50] lot, actually, right now with sodas that we're working on. So even things that are fairly high sugar level, uh, and even things that are fairly acidic, like a falernum, uh, you know, can spoil on you because there are
+
+[44:04] yeasts out there. They're not talking dangerous spoilage, but there are yeast out there that can survive in fairly acidic environments, that can survive
+
+[44:12] in, um, in, even in in high CO2 environments like soda. and can survive, you know, kind of all of those things and can survive, you
+
+[44:21] know, somewhat mild alcohol. Now nothing is going to grow above, with the exception of very few. Very few things are going to grow above, you know, 18, 20% alcohol. So if you're doping it up to 18, 20% alcohol, you're pretty much, I think you're going to be
+
+[44:37] safe, you know, 20, 20 and above, you're good to go. But if you want to have it very low alcohol, you don't want to go high like that. I would, and people might get bent out of shape here because everyone's anti-preservative, right? But, like, one tenth of one% of, like, Benzowit, you know, will, um, prevent yeast from growing. So if you're not against that, small amount of benzoid preservative, it can do wonders for stopping yeast spoilage, which is what you're going to be looking at on, excuse me, on something like
+
+[45:12] that. So that's it. Otherwise, just dope it up to like 20 and you're good. I assume. you know, if I'm wrong, someone will say, you're wrong. And they'll text me and say I'm incorrect and then I'll correct myself, but I'm pretty sure that's right. Uh, uh, Mike, uh, I assuming you pronounce it paez, right? P-A-P-A-E-Z, please, please. Sure. Pass, pass, pass. Okay. Uh, have you ever had success experimenting with monoglyceride flakes, uh, and with the with the pound
+
+[45:40] hashtag, uh, hydrocoloid help. Nice. Well, it depends on what you mean by success. Mono and dylycerides are so you take a fat, right? Fatty, fat is a triglyceride, right? So it's 3 fatty acids that are attached to, you know, glycerin back bone there, right? And so it's triglyceride, right? You break off one of those and you get a diaglyceride, you break off 2 of them, you only have one fatty acid on it and you have a monoglyceride. What's interesting about them is, is they go from being completely non-polar, being a lipid to being a, you know, somewhat polar. So they are emulsifiers. They were amphilic. They love both water and they love um, and they love oil. Mono and diglycerize are, uh, are, they, as emulsifiers go, all emulsifiers are either more oil-like or more
+
+[46:30] water-like, and when you buy mono and diglycerides, they come as a flake format, uh, they are more oil-like. So what you do is, is you dissolve them usually with a little bit of heat into the
+
+[46:42] oil, and then you emulsify your water basin. So they're good for water, water in oil emulsions, right? So that, you know, that's what I mainly use them for. So I've made hydrocolloid beads by putting mono and daglycerides into oils and then emulsifying water
+
+[47:02] drop, flavored water droplets into it. So I've used that. Very high levels of mono and dagliscerides can be used in um, to thicken oils, but I think it's gross. Like, you know, you're talking about like 10% monodeglycerides and it's gross. Don't do it. I mean you can do it, but I wouldn't do it. They're also obviously used a lot in baking applications. But I don't, you know, I haven't come up with something yet where, in other words, it's not part of our normal pantry. I don't reach for it the same way that I would reach for geland gum or for agar or for meat glue or for, um, you know,
+
+[47:38] Pactanex Ultra SPL, like stuff that, stuff that I use every single day. But that's just because, you know, I probably haven't spent the time. I'm sure that if I spent the time with it, that I think it's, you know, the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uh, Matt, uh, Gardner calls, uh, wrote in and says, hey, Dave, what polyscience circulator is best for pop-ups? Uh, creative series or chef series? Maximum 20 guests have a $1000 to drop? Thanks. So, okay, so there are 3 different polyssinus circulators that I'm aware of that are out there right now, and I can never remember which is it. The creative is the new one that's 400 bucks, right? Or 45, whatever it is. Then there's the sous vide, uh, professional, which is the $800 plastic
+
+[48:22] one, and then there's the other one that is the $900, $1000 old school metal one. Now, here's the issue. If you're doing a pop-up, you might want to have 22 circulators going, right? In which case for a 1000 bucks, you could buy 2 of the new creative one. Now, neither one of them is going to circulate as large a volume. They're powerful from a heat standpoint, but they're not as, you know, their pump is not as powerful. So you know, you're not necessarily going to get as large a bath moving as you would with the other one. They're also not guaranteed for commercial work. So if they break and they were used commercially, their warranty will not be valid. However, even though you're only cooking for 20 people, you might find that you're going to do, in a pop-up scenario, 2 different recipes, it might require 2 different temperatures, or you might want to run 2 different baths, in which case it could be useful to have 2 circulators running, in which case the only way to do that for
+
+[49:16] a $1000, you know, with a polycience one is to go with the, um, with the new creative series. Uh, that said, um, you know, both the, you know, I haven't used a new creative
+
+[49:29] one. So I can't really, really talk about it, but, you know, Philip Preston told me that the main difference is the pump is not as strong and it's not warrantied for commercial use. Yeah? Okay. Dave, I hate to do it. We've got an international call in the next show. All right. How many minutes? Two minutes? Like a minute. All right. Elliot Pavanaugh wrote in cooking issues, didn't hear it before. I want to make a cocktail for Christmas theme, Yule log. Any ideas? I'm thinking juniper, smoke. It's going to take longer, Elliot. tweet you out a multiple tweet for your Yule log cocktail stasha. I sure we'll think about it. You like Yule log stuff, right? And you like Christmas. We work on that. And King Amber wrote in super quick. Quick legal lesson on the name, a Kimique, which I made fun of before. David suggested it was a terrible name. Not so. First is an adorable palindrome. I don't really like palindrones, but okay. And they did a little something with the 2nd cue to make it symmetrical. So it is visually recognizable, but more importantly, in the trademark area. The clients and marketing folks typically want a descriptive name, and the lawyers want a nondescriptive name. Uh, and so basically saying it's a strong mark because it's both descriptive and nondescriptive.
+
+[50:34] All right, fair, Ken, fair, fair. Anyway, listen, to everyone out there, I want to wish them whatever you celebrate, happy that, good cooking, and cooking your shoes. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[51:00] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:58] Killing your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello, Happy New Year, and welcome to cooking issues. We're back with Nastasia Lopez here sitting next to me on the computer as always. We don't have any Jack today because he's still recovering from the New Year's festivities. He's sick. Well, what do you think made him sick? He has a cold. I see. Thank goodness we have Joe in the studio. How you doing, Joe? I'm doing great How are you guys? Doing well. How was your new year? It was wonderful in warm sunny Los Angeles, California. Los Angeles. Are you Los Angeles? No, I was just out visiting. Visiting, like, friends or what? Yeah, my girlfriend lives out there or is from there? That's where Nastasia Hills from near Los Angeles makes me think it's full of bad people. Just messing with you. Call your questions live too. 7184972128. That's 718-497-2128. Natasha, what do you do for the new year? I was here. Nothing, yeah. Nothing special. Well, we were avoiding each other. We didn't see each other over the entire entire thing. I was just hanging out with my family and then went to the Booker index. I wasn't avoiding you. I didn't. No, I know you were avoiding me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we have some questions. Michael Nackin writes in. Happy New Year, Michael. It's he's our, what would you say he's our favorite vegetarian cookbook writer at this point? I bought his cookbooks for 2 friends for Christmas. Yeah? Nice. With your own with your own catch. With my own money. Nice. I like that a lot. I like that. She used the booker index car. No, I didn't. I swear. All right, all right, all right. Michael writes him. Chris Young, Chris Young of Modernist Cuisine Fame, was now teaching, I guess, at a rival of ours, like Johnson
+
+[2:39] in Wales, I think in Rhode Island. I think he's doing it, not Rhode Island, wherever it is. Yeah, Rhode Island on the campus anyway. Chris Young, friend of ours, like him a lot, was telling some entertaining stories about
+
+[2:47] Fluffing, and Michael wants to know, can we say that on the air? I think we can, if we don't describe where the word fluffing comes from, we can say it,
+
+[2:54] right, Joe? Yeah, just, yeah. Walk a thin line. Yeah, well, okay, so I think fluffy, like it's such a good word. It needs to just be redefined as just keeping people pumped for their job. lets put it that way. Exactly. Right, great. A fluffer is someone who keeps the more important person pumped and primed, let's say.
+
+[3:15] Let's, let's say, say pumped in prime. Anyway, so about fluffing with me and Tony the Tiger in Miami, can we hear
+
+[3:25] Day's version of the events? Yeah, sure. So what happened was, is that a number of years ago, um, we were asked, uh, Chris Chris and I were asked to literally fluff for Food Network talent at some event at South Beach. It's the only, did I go twice or did I go once to South Beach? I think once. Once? Yeah. I don't really, whatever. I'm not going to say anything about it. But anyway, the point is, is that Kellogg's, the people like who make, you know, make good products like the Kellogg's frosted flakes and other, other well-known cereal brands, they have,
+
+[3:52] they, they rent this amphitheater thing inside of this place called uh, the parrot jungle. I think that's the name of it, parrot jungle in Miami, like right there, like near the causeway. And the place is nutty. Like the place is full of like crazy parrots and crazy trees, all sorts of like, you know, like they have
+
+[4:10] a, they have a, um, a cockatoo there that literally used to, they have a picture of the cockatoo sitting on Winston Churchill's shoulder and this
+
+[4:17] some, some gun cockatoo is still alive because apparently, as long as they don't get sick, these things, they just don't die. They live to be like 100, these freaking things. Anyway, so there's parrots everywhere. And Kellogg is like renting the place out for this South Beach
+
+[4:30] food and wine festival thing. And Chris and I are there because they have some sort of science-friendly kids thing. I don't even really know. What it really was an excuse for was to get like Jada and, you know, the ace of cake, Sky, and Guy Fieri, and, you know, all these people up there. And so literally, Chris and I would stand there and take science questions from the local Miami crowd and their kids, just like cooking
+
+[4:57] issues, just like this, but it was all questions that I hate. Like, um, you know, all like nutrition-based. Anyway, we fielded the questions. And everyone, no one could wait for us to get the hell off the stage so that Jada or
+
+[5:12] Guy Fieri could get on stage or Tony, even Tony the Tiger was a much bigger hit
+
+[5:17] than we were. I mean, frankly, I mean, I think we did a good job, but yeah, they weren't there to see, you know, Chris Young and myself, you know, answer their questions about,
+
+[5:25] you know, different kinds of sugars. But, uh, my memory is, is that this, the one question that the person was excited to ask, this little girl is like,
+
+[5:33] eh, raise her hand, I guess. And she says, uh, can you give this necklace to Jada? She had made this like pasta necklace? And I was like, 0 my god. I hope to God that Giada was good about it. and like took it and wore it. I like, well, I was like, kid, I don't know Jada. Like, if I went up and like tripped her and she fell over, she wouldn't know who to call the cops and blame. She has no idea who the hell I am. I didn't say hell. I didn't say any of this. But I was like, but I will try to see. I will put this necklace right here where her workstation is and hopefully she will put it on. I don't even know what happened because as soon as it was time for the real people to come on stage,
+
+[6:05] they, like, you know, brought out the cane, like, swipe this off the stage and that was it, whoop, gone, right? Nastasia, let me tell you how ghetto this was. Nastasia was flown out there to quote unquote assist in this project and she didn't even show up to the event. true or false. I wasn't flown out and I paid my own way in my hotel. Oh, your own hotel. Because, because, because you wouldn't work with it to get the hotel. Your flight was paid, excuse me. I can look through my, yeah, yeah. Go through and look, your flight was paid. You could have had a paid hotel, but you can't... Here's a noastasia. even when we're going on business, so cheap. She's like, can I just stay in your hotel? No, I'm a grown man. We didn't have a business car. This is like... But the really good reason to go. And the reason why it was an extremely worthwhile trip was, A, I got to see the cockatoo that was on Winston Churchill's shoulder. But B, it was the 1st time I went to the Miami Fruit and Spice Park, which is, I think, one of the greatest places on
+
+[7:00] Earth, and I've talked about it on the Air Bunch, and it's a place everyone should go. And we went with Chris and I think he was pretty impressed by as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay, a grand Indianapolis writes in about pork belly and Espuma. Okay, I'm going to go Looney on the word of spoom in a minute. But, hey, Dave Nastasia and Gang. I working on a new dish. I have a couple of questions. I would love to have you weigh in on. First, I want to do a pine infused espuma. I want pine flavor to come through, so it's recognizable, but not overpowering. My question is on method. I'm wondering if I should simmer the pine in my liquid on the stove, throw it in a bag in my sous vide supreme, or use a pressure, use pressure in an
+
+[7:36] ISI whipper. do you think? All right. Um, Grant, 1st thing, here's what I think. I hate the word espuma. Okay, okay, I'll tell you why. I posted about this. You can't read it right now because the blog is still down. We're working on it, people. I dont want to hear it. working on it. Actually, I'm not working on it. A friend of ours named Paul is working on it. But, um, Aspuma is, I believe it's just kind of like the Spanish word for foam, right? I mean, you don't speak Spanish anymore. Nastasia forgot all over Spanish because she had an Italian boyfriend once. I don't want to talk about it. And, uh, but the point is, is that, is that in English, uh, spuma, to me, sounds like something you hocked up and spat out, right? Estaf, you with me on this? Yes, it's disgusting. Yeah, yeah. So for me, I'm going to say that if you're doing, like, I would just call it a foam. I would just call it a foam. I mean, if you have to say the word as spuma, say the word as spuma, but I just,
+
+[8:25] I'm anti, the word as spuma on an English language menu. If the entire menu's in Spanish, then go ahead and write a spuma, right? Right. Right. But it would be like, it would be like writing, I'm going to have poached ooofs. You don't write that. You know what I mean? You're right. have poached eggs, right? Right. By the way, like, I hope you're not getting bent over me going on this diatribe. I just happen to not like the word. right? It's gross word. It's gross. no effect. I'm not saying, like, grant, we're pro you, just anti- the word is puma, right? Okay. On Pine. The interesting thing about Pine is that I love Pine. My favorite way to work with pine is actually to distill it. We, we, you know, several, many years, actually, we've taken Christmas trees, purchased Christmas trees, ripped the Christmas trees
+
+[9:07] apart, and then distilled them. Remember last year's stuff? Yeah, we did a party for MTV, MTV music, and we did, we did pine, pine, gin, and tonics where we were doing Douglas
+
+[9:18] firs, and we were buying Douglas firs and stripping them down and distilling them in the Rota app, and that's delicious. So the 2 things you want to make sure when you do it is one, you don't oversteep. If you're using something like alcohol, which it sounds like you're not, but if you're using alcohol, there's a real danger that you're going to get kind of that detergenty, um, pine
+
+[9:37] soly kind of, uh, uh, thing out of it because you extract so, so much of the resin. It probably won't be as big of a deal if you do it in water, I would do traditional,
+
+[9:45] for instance, like a spruce tea or fur, pine teas, typically done, either with the new buds, if you can get them. It's not the time of year, or with the needles brewed for a fairly long time in hot water because it won't extract as much of the resin, but you'll get a nice brew out of it.
+
+[10:00] B, I, like I say, I've done it almost exclusively in alcohol. I've never really done any water-based pine stuff. You want to be careful to choose, well, aside from choosing ones that don't have weird pesticides on it. You want to be careful to choose a pine that's not too redolent of a bathroom cleaner. And I have the same problem with lavender. A lot of times when you're working with lavender in a drink, and I warn people because a lot of people want to work with lavender and they want to work with pine. Me, I have a huge soft spot for pine. I remember Sam Mason used to work with Pine a lot at WB 50 back when he was there. Uh, you know, I worked with Pine a lot. Nils works with Pine a lot. We all love it, but there's a good chunk of people out there that even when you do a really, really good job with
+
+[10:36] it. are going to have, um, bathroom memories or cleaner memories. And, and, and like I say, the same thing is true with um, with lavender. And so you have to be very careful to try it out on a bunch of people to see whether or not they're going to have the same response. It's very difficult as a cook to, um, know what everyone's reaction is going to be to something just because you love it. I've learned this the hard way, believe me, many, many times. This same thing happened is true. you know, a number of years ago was super low temperature fish that, you know, a lot of people were playing around
+
+[11:12] with it. Like a lot of the chefs really loved it, but there's a good chunk of customers that even when it was done really, really well, they just didn't like it. And so just be aware when you're using a polarizing flavor that you are using a polarizing flavor. and try to try to take it such that it's on the non-detergenty side. That's all. I'm going to say. That said, distillation is, heck. Also, on dosing, dosing is extremely important. So even if you have one that you really like the aroma of, and you don't think it's going to go to pine saw to detergent. We've done, I've done, we've done Frasier's, we've done Doug Furs. We've done, I think we've done balsam. Uh, you know, I've never had a really good source of spruce myself. I used to chew on needles all the time growing up because I loved it. Um, but you want to, um, you want to test it all the time as you're making it to make sure that you're not
+
+[11:56] going to go extract too much stuff and go over bitter, over piney over resoney on it. There's a very, very fine line. You want to be careful. And the same thing's true. Remember when we did this distillation styles, we had a very, very strong distillate, we had to water it quite a bit to get it to work exactly the
+
+[12:10] way, the way we wanted to do. But that said, it's a very good flavor. Okay. That's good. Yes. Okay. Second, this is from Grand Still. I'm doing a low temperature pork belly. Unfortunately, I don't have a circulator, just a sous vide. supreme. So I'll have to do smaller pieces of the belly at a time. My 1st thought is to do a brine, rinse, cook sous vide, uh, low, uh, and then sear it. What I benefit from doing a pre-seer before cooking low temp, or my best off leaving it till the end. My goal is to have a nice crispy layer of skin on top. Also, since I'm planning on cooking the belly a day ahead, would be best to reheat it in the bag the day of service and do my sear right before it goes out to the table. Okay. On the pork belly, I would cook it way more than a day if you're going to go low. I mean, Wiley used to do his, I think, for 72 hours and I still remember that dish. That was on, I think, his opening menu, his, his, uh, he was, Wiley's at WD 50 when he opened was, I think, the 1st time I'd had
+
+[13:01] the, the low temperature long cooked pork belly. And that was actually one of the revelations for low temperature cooking for me was how much I like that. And he, he brined. I think his took up forever to do. He brined it, I think, with some nitrites in it, my memory is right, for 3 days or day, but one between one and 3 days, he would brine it, wet brine, I believe. And then he would vacuum package it, let it
+
+[13:26] dry a little bit. Then he would vacuum package it. And I think here's the key to why his thing was so good. Uh, he wouldn't pre-seer, he would press it. And he pressed it for a long time and let it cool down to get the skin nice and flat, I think, and to get all the meat together. Then he would cook it for like 72 hours at a pretty low temperature. I don't know what he did, probably 60 or something like that. Uh, and then our 62, somewhere in there. And then, uh, he pulled it out, and then he would crisp it like a duck breast. And so I think he would. This is what I would have done. This is my memory of it. He, he, he, you know, and he would crisp it, uh, on the skin side and I think just like let the heat carry, carry it over. I've done it a bunch. I've never done all the. taken all the care that Wiley did to do it. We've done much more kind of off the cuff long cook ones because we weren't doing it for restaurant service, but the key in this thing is crisping the skin. And what you're, if you pre-sear it, my fear is that you're not going to have a very flat piece of skin and it's
+
+[14:22] going to be hard for you to get a really good sear on it. So when you, when you have a piece of meat and you don't do the pressing, especially on pork and you really need that sear to get it crunchy. If you have a lot of undulations in the skin, when it's against the
+
+[14:33] pan and it's rendering out, you'll get these blonde spots on the bottom that aren't
+
+[14:37] crunchy and they're just not as satisfying as the rest of it where it's like all hyper crunchy and delicious. Yeah? Yes. Okay. Uh, we got a, we got a, uh, a write in from our, one of our earliest cooking
+
+[14:50] issues, readers, back when the blog was working, Schinderhannes. And, uh, and it's Shinerhannes, very good to hear from you. Happy New Year. This is your loyal follower, Schinderhannes. It seems that the world has to accept the fact that you don't have the time and resources on hand to keep the world's best food
+
+[15:05] blog cooking issues alive and well fed on new entries, but now your blog is completely unavailable. I used it as an important online resource and I'm missing it badly. Are you planning to publish it as an online blog archive? Please do so. That would be great news. Otherwise, I'll promise to buy any book you're working on. And then he says, as a 3rd alternative, he'll leave in a huff and turn to Campbell's soup for the rest of his useless life. Wow. Shinderhannes. And he ends it. Yeah, he's a good man. He ends it in Freudich Grusa, which is, I guess, you know, best regards, okay, friendly greetings, Aft Deutsch. Uh, Dr. Johannes Kerbeting. Okay, well, Shinerhannes. I've said this a 1000000 times, like, honestly, people need to know out there, like, we're literally waiting for people to flip the right switches. It seems preposterous, but we don't have control of the blog yet, and we're working on it in a hardcore way. Not really. I'm not working on it at all. But we have other people who are theoretically working on it. Is that true? Yeah. Do we have like a date? We have a Paul working on it. Paul doesn't have a date. Paul still figuring it out. Oh my, you know, it's like, it's like, if we just went into selling Cialis. of this would have happened. We could have just split it with whoever hacked us, wherever they are. You know what I mean? And just like, you know, kept on running, but, you know, it just, it wasn't to be, we're gonna get the information. I can promise this. The information will be back online. I have hopes that you're right. I don't have time to do what I was doing back then. Maybe we can find some people. The real problem is, is that it's hard to find people who want to write
+
+[16:30] things kind of the way that I want them written. But this kind of ties into another question. not a question, a comment. Steve Crandall wrote in, and he said, he's giving us a point out to another blogger, and his name is Greg
+
+[16:43] Blonder, the blogger. don't know him. Do you know him? No. Greg Blonder is a friend and colleague, a physicist who's playing with food a bit. You may enjoy some of his online articles. Um, and I read these articles on diffusion and brining, and it's some of the best writing on brining that I've ever seen on the
+
+[17:00] internet. And you guys, everyone who listened to this, I think, would enjoy it. www.genuineideas.com. And so he does lots of really awesome things. Like, he's testing brining. And
+
+[17:12] he, uh, in order to test nitrite, um, nitrite penetration into, uh, into meat during, uh, during, like, brining with curing salts. He bought nitrite. He went to an aquarium shop and bought a nitrite test paper for aquariums to test the nitrite level because
+
+[17:31] of what fish make nitrites when they're in there. And he was using it as blotter paper and testing the diffusion of nitrates into meats, which
+
+[17:39] was, I thought, like that is a freaking fantastic idea. And then he was using some sort of uh, some sort of salt assay to literally paint the surface of meats after different
+
+[17:49] uh, brining things to see how far salt had penetrated in, which I thought was fascinating. And then something years ago that, you know, I tried to do, unsuccessfully was to use dyes to try and look at brine penetration. And that's when I bought a bunch of FNDC Blue One, which if you put into gel caps and give people, they will, they won't know it necessarily, but they'll poop green.
+
+[18:10] I not recommending you do that. I didn't do that, but I know that it works, but I didn't do it. Right? Right. Nastasia opened up the bottle of FNDC blue. I was like, I told her, I was like, it came in the mail. I was like, Nastasia, do not open this. Do not touch this. And just so you know, her nature. It's not in her nature to not fool around with stuff and like put fingernail marks and everything and
+
+[18:28] everything and like mangle and mutilate. I knew she messed with this one because when I came back, her face was entirely blue. entirely blue. Remember that? Yeah, I was like, I didn't touch it. I hear that. didn't touch it. I was like, and I showed her the mirror. She was like, oh. Anyway, so, uh, but the problem with FNDC Blue is that FNDC Blue is rather large compared to things like salt. And it also, it's not, you know, doesn't, anyway, it doesn't work the same way. But this guy that I don't know, but I'd probably like to meet Greg is showed a really interesting result, which was that if you brine with acid, it actually kind of forces the meat fibers apart and then allows larger things like the blue
+
+[19:07] dye to penetrate further into the surface of the meat, but not very far. Fascinating stuff. And then even more fascinating on this on the subject of brining. And this is something that I hadn't heard before. This was new to me and opened up a whole world is that, you know, you get X amount of brine penetration, salt penetration over time during a brine, but then the actual cooking process pushes the brine further into the
+
+[19:30] meat and he shows it with these tests that are relatively conclusive and like really cool
+
+[19:34] images. So, uh, Steve, thanks for pointing that out and uh, Well, Steve, thanks for pointing that out. and I'm sure I'm going to go read. I hope a bunch of other people go read that stuff too. So with that, we're going to take a commercial break. Courtney Gorgeous, 2718, 497-2128, Cooking your Jews.
+
+[20:51] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and
+
+[21:06] California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at InternationalCulinaryCenter.com. Every Wednesday at noon, Dorothy Ken Hamilton, founder and CEO of the International Culinary Center, interviews the top chefs in the world on
+
+[21:35] Chef Story. Here from chefs like Christina Tosi. I'm going to be the best pastry cook. This restaurant's ever seen. Francis Malman. Cooking with fires, it's very feminine. It's very fragile, and Jacques Pepette. That was invited to work at the White House for John Kennedy. Learn how the greats become great every Wednesday at 12 p.m. on chef story at heritageradionetwork.org. Hello and welcome back to Cooking Issues. We have a caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, David, this is Johnny Kart from Memphis, Tennessee. How you doing? Doing all right, yourself. I'm doing good. I had a question about uh, uh, uh, cookery. and surveyed the yolks. Okay. I rigged up some PVC pipe. You know, of course, cleans it out real good and put some acetate, um, you know, inside of
+
+[22:31] there. and put saran wrap around the bottom. Um. Put egg yolks in there. And I thought I had secured it. um, with, with the other side, with Saran wrap all around, right? And I cooked it at, was it, uh, 64 degrees
+
+[22:58] for, about an hour, and it came out running. Right. So the, here's the thing. The, a couple things. The one of the weird things about egg yolks is that they don't cook at the same temperature when you crack them out as they do when, um, as they do when you,
+
+[23:19] um, um, cook them in the shell. And I don't really know why. I've tried to, like, wonder whether or not it's like there's a, the, the slight, the basic nature of uh, egg white. don't really understand why. You'd think that being surrounded by the egg white would actually raise the temperature, which it
+
+[23:34] coagulates because the base there is going to weaken the protein. But, uh, for some reason, egg yolks, um, are they they set at a different temperature outside of the, the shell. The other thing is, is that if you add salt or sugar, then you drastically change the temperature at which the egg yolks
+
+[23:56] set. Now, I've never done a full set of experiments to figure out, but like before I would, um, go through all the trouble that you're doing, I would, I would just like, uh, take some egg yolks
+
+[24:08] almost uh, in ramekins at different temperatures and see at what temperature you can get them to
+
+[24:13] set uh, fully outside of the shell. But I'll tell you, it is different. It might also be different. A whole egg yolk out of the shells. In other words, separated egg yolk that's not broken versus one that's been mixed with a fork.
+
+[24:26] I don't know whether or not it's going to be different or not because I never run the full set of tests. This is one of the original years ago things that Wiley was asking Harold McGee when we were doing the original Harold McGee class at the French culinary.
+
+[24:38] And I never really, I never really got a satisfactory answer for what was going on. I just know that the temperature is different. The other thing I'll add is that, uh, I wouldn't uh, I wouldn't trust uh, the PVC,
+
+[24:51] even, even with the cleaning, you know, at this point, nobody really knows uh, what the plasticizers
+
+[24:56] do, uh, to us or to people that we're serving, but, you know, everyone knows
+
+[25:01] PVC does have plasticizers in it. And then no matter how well you wash it, it will leach out over time, especially into fatty things, like an egg yolks. So if you're getting direct I mean, I know you have acetate in there. And so there's probably not a lot of direct contact, but, you know, I, I, at this point, try to shy away from PVC when, uh, when I can. Even though, you know what, though, for tests, you know, there's nothing beats it because it's so cheap, it's so easy to work with. You know what I mean? Um, but I would definitely say you're going to want to jack the temperature height. Did you add salt or sugar to it? I did not. I did the one. I did about 3 tests. I did add salt to the 2nd one. I didn't add salt to the 1st one. Uh, what, what would be the, I guess the best conductor, is it conduction
+
+[25:50] to the TVC pipe? Well, is it nerds like, holds the temp? Yeah, it's not that it's not that the PVC. I mean the PVC is a bad conductor. That's true, right? But it's not that the, it's not that the PVC was a bad conductor, I think it literally is that you need to jack the temperature higher. I would try... trying to remember what Wiley used to do. Wiley used to do. He would make egg tubes in VAC bags. He would make tubes out of vacuum bags and then seal them off and cook the egg yolks that way. And I'm going to want to say he had to put it as high as 70 Celsius to get it to work exactly the way he wanted to. So I think you're going to need to, although PVC is a bad conductor. I think you're going to want to go higher, like up almost up to about 70 degrees C. And then if that sets too hard for you, then you might want to pull it back. But I believe that in his old, um, I forget which dish it was where he had the egg tubes like that, but I think that they were done up at 70 when they were
+
+[26:46] done out of things. Maybe a beef dish. I don't know. Um, okay. So, yeah, I would even go about setting them in a, in
+
+[27:00] a, uh, bag where it's circular. Yeah, well he, they were I think what he was doing was he was, like, putting them in a, in, like, he was sealing the
+
+[27:11] bag, almost like flavorized pops, and then, like, you know, injecting them
+
+[27:14] full, and then cutting off the ends where they were pillow shaped. But I mean, there's a bunch of things you could do. You could get test tubes. The question is how would you get him out of the out of the other sides. Uh, you know, I think the technique that you're using as a test would be fine. I mean, you might want to move to like an acetate line, stainless steel pipe or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Something that's a little more, that is a better conductor and also is definitely food grade. So if you go to like mcmastercar.com, you can, I don't know what size you're using, but I'm guessing you're probably using like half inch or 3 quarter PVC, something like that. And if you, yeah, and if you're doing that, you can get something with the same internal diameter made out of like 304 stainless that's, you know, seamless on the inside, smoothbore and thin, and you can buy like a one foot length of it, you can cut it with a hacksaw into 26 inch
+
+[28:00] lengths, and, you know, you can probably get that for in the range of 15 bucks or something, something on that order, especially, you know, and it's going to be completely
+
+[28:09] non-reactive. And if you line that with acetate, you should be able to pull it out fine. you know? And then, uh, you know, and then if you don't have to make too many of them. And the good thing about those things is you can use them an infinite number of times, they're 100% food
+
+[28:21] grade, and, you know, they won't break, and you know, you'll have them forever. What was the website you said? Oh, McMaster.com, which is McMaster car. And it's one of the they charge a little more than other people do, like a lot more, like 30% more, but the great thing is they have something like 4 or 5 warehouses all over the country.
+
+[28:40] And so they're never more than one day, you know, usually, I mean, at least, you know, most places I've been, they're never more than one ground day away. So if you order by 6 PM, whatever your local time is, then it usually shows up UPS ground the next day. I'm also I'm also getting some air in there. because they're floating. Um, I don't know whether I need to come straight out of the fridge or or freeze them and then put them in the car back in
+
+[29:09] the PVC or the, um, you know, the correct, uh, vessel. Right. Well, if you... If you freeze them, they'll be almost solid. If you freeze and thaw an egg, the egg yolk, they'll be on the solid. The problem is you'll get a little bit of greening on them, the color's never quite right after you freeze the egg yolk on the membrane on the outside.
+
+[29:30] And if you mix it, that'll probably be ameliorated somewhat. But if you're using something like a stainless steel tube, uh, you what's, you should, if you have your vacuum machine, this is always a fun experiment to run. Put a bottle in there with a cap on it, real loose so that if you, if you, if the cap's on it, it's, uh, you know, the stuff will spill out of it, and then put, uh, put liquid into the bag with the bottle, and when the air comes back in, all the liquid will be shot into the bottle, which is
+
+[29:58] a hilarious experiment to watch because literally the liquid liquid's forced in. So if you were to, if you were to put stainless steel tubes with a little bit of extra egg yolk into
+
+[30:08] a vacuum bag, then the egg yolks will shoot themselves into the tube. Okay. So, you're cutting out of me a little bit. I can go back and listen to what you said, but, um, All right. So it won't float. What's the best thing to do to not float? Oh, well, Erve at the French culinary, his technique, whenever he was doing a hand wrap of something that wasn't in a vacuum machine, he would just take a couple of stainless
+
+[30:37] steel, like butter knives or spoons, and do a couple of wraps of cellophane with the
+
+[30:42] butter knife, their spoons, and those suckers will sink right to the bottom. All right. Um, any other, any other advice you can give me on this or? anything else? No, I think that should work. Like I try it up at 70 and if it's too hard for you, start scaling back, but I would do your next test at 70 degrees Celsius.
+
+[31:03] Uh, and I would, like I say, vac bag it and go back and listen to it. you can hear if you backbag it. The vacuum machine should push the eggs literally into the tube for you. Uh, you know, and uh, and that should, that should work, that should work for you. But shoot us a Twitter at shoot us a tweet rather at cooking issues if you're having more problems and we'll give you some
+
+[31:22] pointers, all right? Okay. All right, Dave. Good luck. Are you too. Bye bye. Uh, okay, so, uh, we had a question in from uh, Barry Muncasey. Happy New Year's cooking issues team. I bought an immersion circulator about 6 months ago, but I have not, but I have not done a multiple hour slash days recipe. The circulator came with a free camware professional container, but no top. I am concerned about excessive heat loss and evaporation when it is unattended for a significant number of hours, which
+
+[31:51] will be better. Polypropylene balls, like the ping pong balls, or the custom cut lid that the website sells or something else. I'll hit this one first. So, uh, I use uh, at home, I have the lid that's cut, uh, and that thing works great. If you don't have it, you should just wrap saran over, you know,
+
+[32:09] plastic wrap over the top of it. Anything to prevent evaporation. And when I'm doing a long cook, you know, like long, long cook, I'll even wrap around the gap in my pre-cut top with cerant, and you get almost 0
+
+[32:25] evaporation, and you can run a 3 day cook without ever having to add water. I would keep checking it, obviously, because duh, right? But, you know, but it's not a problem. And I've never used the ping pong balls. I've never seen anyone use the ping-pong balls in the real life. I've heard of people buying the ping pong balls and I've spoken to people who used to use the ping pong balls and no longer use the ping pong balls, but I've never known anyone who actually
+
+[32:50] uses them. The ping pong balls are really good for electroplating businesses, right? Whereas, or anyone who has a lot of a highly volatile chemical and you need to go in and out of the bath a lot. And so they prevent evaporation. When you're doing a long cook, you're not going in and out of the bath a lot. So the easiest thing to do is to just cover the whole thing with saran wrap or with a tight fitting lid, right? The only time you really need to be able to have those things is, like I say, when
+
+[33:17] you're service, going in and out, and during service, you don't need to necessarily have such a good lid on it,
+
+[33:22] right? Because usually your reheat temperatures aren't as important as your cooking temperatures. So if you get like a like one degree cooler at the top, it's not such a big deal, and you can just go in with tongs and pull the stuff out, not have to worry about these ping pong balls getting all over your kitchen, going to your dishwasher, getting lost, you know, I don't know, your dog swallowing it or
+
+[33:41] whatever. You know what I mean? So I don't know anyone who bought the ping pong balls and loved them enough to keep working with them. You can buy. I don't know how much they charge. I've never purchased in my life a pre-cut lid. You know, I always buy a lid and I use a hacksaw. I think that they've changed it back in the day when they used to pre-cut the lids. They would cut the lid in the center of the thing, which is a waste of space in your
+
+[34:02] camera. So I would always cut the lid on the corner. Here's another tip for you. If you buy an extra lid, and this is going to be, uh, you know, I don't know whether you're using this at home or whatever, but if you're, if, what I used to do, still do around New Year's or Christmas, whenever I have a big party, I would take my, my lid, and I would saw with a hacksaw, uh, holes to fit round Bain
+
+[34:23] Maries in it, and then I would uh, drill holes so that I could uh, put a spring and pull them
+
+[34:28] down, and I would put stainless steel Bain Maries. So I would literally have parties where I had sliders staying hot in the circulator that I could reach in through a little, you know, gap I cut in the
+
+[34:38] lid, and then I would have like queso dip in one and chocolate fondue in the other, all running out of the same
+
+[34:43] circulator, all kept hot. So, you know, you know, have Cambro lid and some ingenuity and a saw and you can get a whole bunch done. Okay, second, my department, I don't know what department? You didn't say what department? Department in what? I don't know. Like what? We'll say it's purchasing. I have no idea, right? Anyway. Second, my department annually has it, why is it always like purchasing as a department you think about because they get to do the cool stuff, right? They get to buy all the stuff, purchasing. Yeah. purchasing. Okay. Second, my department annually has a soup contest for the coveted golden ladle. I have made chicken gumbo, shrimp bisque, matzo ball soup. I love matzo ball soup. Do you like matzo ball soup? I never had it. Never? Never. Do you know that? That's crazy. We should, like, someone out there has to invite, uh, Nastasia, along with her Mucha friends and maybe Mark Over for, like,
+
+[35:30] Mantamal Soup, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I think you would like it a lot. What's not to like? Do you like, you've had, you had matzo balls, but only, only the mutant sweet one I made. I made a mutant sweet matza ball because I was working on a matza ball. I was working on a matza ball, uh, drink. It didn't work. We didn't end up using it, but it was all based on, uh, it was all based on this, uh, we use this kind of like nice uh, Japanese whiskey called Yamazaki. And so the joke was we were going to make a drink called Yamakazaki that was Yamazaki with a sweet maple syrup
+
+[36:02] matza ball in it. And I made, the matzo balls were actually quite good. I'd never had a kind of sweet matzo ball before. But they were good, but the drink was just awful. Did you have that one? It was terrible, right? Who were you doing that for? We're just we're seeing where you can do it. somebody we were doing it for. I remember him. Really? Anyway, didn't work. We didn't, so for those of you out there, like, uh, know that we were unsuccessful in our matza ball, uh, cocktail,
+
+[36:28] but you might be more successful. But anyway, be that. Uh, matzo ball soup, corn chowder. I like corn chowder Do you like corn chowder? I like a corn chowder, corn chowder, good powder. Amongst others, and a finished second so many times that they felt bad for me 2 years ago, and they gave me the golden spork as a consolation prize. So what's the name of that person from all my children, Suzanne Lucci? Susan Lucci. So he's like the Susan Lucci of soup in the purchasing department. Uh, this year, uh, with what I thought was a delicious Asian chicken and corn soup, I finished completely out of the
+
+[37:00] running and so now have even lost a golden spork. I had 8 months to tinker an experiment to come up with this year's winning entry and would like to take a modernist cuisine approach. Could you provide me with a syllabus for success? And finally, I hope that one of your New Year's resolutions is that you will accomplish will be fixing and updating the blog, Barry McCasey. Okay. Here's the thing. I think your problem is, is the 1st thing, 1st thing you should do is never enter contests. I've learned this because it's only heartbreak. Barry, it's only heartbreak. Uh, the other thing is, is that if you look at it, right? discourage him. I'm not discouraging him. I just saying I don't enter contests. I don't like them. I don't enjoy them except for eating contests, which I always win. But the, the, uh, but here's the thing, right? So let's look at this. So the Asian chicken and corn soup. I don't know your audience. Like, you have to know your audience, right? So, you know, you can have the best tasting, most nuanced thing in the
+
+[37:55] world, and if you show up and your audience wants, you know, you
+
+[38:00] show up with, I'll give you an example. I did an event once and with nils. And Nils and I had spent like a lot of time making fresh
+
+[38:10] clarified, really good apple juice. I think we were using, I think we were using Ashmeat's kernel, which is my favorite apple, and fennel. And we had, you know, clarified these things, uh, and then balanced it with gin and, uh, we had a little clarified, uh, you know, lime juice in it. We carbonated it. We done all this work. And it was, frankly, it was a good drink. You know what I mean? You know, one of our best, I think, that we did. And we went to an event and it was, it was a Chardonnay crowd. You know what I mean? And so we showed up. It's like it's like bringing, you know, you bring in the wrong tool to the job. You know what I mean? So, like, here we are, and you know what that is? Depressing. And that's actually the event that caused me to learn that what the most important thing to do, is to know your audience and to create a slam dunk for that audience.
+
+[38:59] That said, you also have to make it interesting for yourself. So otherwise you're not going to, you're not going to be interested. You know, if you're just cranking out, you know, if what they want is Chef Boy RD, It's still not going to be interesting if you're just cranking open cans of Shep Boy or D and pouring it into a bucket, which reminds me of my Uncle Ralph. You know that story. What am I? I asked my, Michael Ralph asked, said, letting me once, and I was like, you know, I don't know why. He goes, he goes, what do I look like? Chef boy RD. I was like, kind of, Uncle Ralph, you look kind of like freaking Chef Boyerty. He doesn't really, because if Chef Boy RG was D was from Jersey, my Uncle Ralph would look like Chef Boy RD. I love Uncle Ralph. anyway. So, uh, uh, and he talks kind of like that. I love Uncle Ralph. Anyways, so know your audience. Secondly, the question is, what are you going to do, uh, modernist? Now, Nastasia doesn't like these because she doesn't like a lot of the flavors that we did when we did it, but the concept is
+
+[39:46] sound. And I think nut milks are make a very, very good base for a soup. So you can take a traditional soup that is really good and switch it out for
+
+[39:57] a, uh, like a nut milk base. So a pistachio milk, a cashew milk or a, uh, you know, an almond milk, any one of these kind of like, and and you don't have to have really expensive equipment to do it. I do it in a centrifuge because I have one, but you can, um, you can just blend it, you know, in a blender with hot, you know, super hot water and then strain it through,
+
+[40:20] uh, you know, muslin to get the milk out of that makes a really good base. But it sounds like, you know, if they didn't like the Asian thing. I mean, I don't know what they want. You know what I mean? You know, you can use, you know, make your own stocks, obviously, with, like, you know, with a pressure cooker, as long as you have a non-venting one. I would look up everything in modern cuisine on stock making, on soups, but really, like, you need to get back with me on what style of soup you think is going to be the one that they're going to go
+
+[40:47] for, because that's the 1st choice. You know, then, then making it, making it kick butt is the next thing. There's no sort of, like, catch all, like, best soup idea. It's more like, you know, what's your goal and then we can brainstorm towards getting there, right? Yep. Okay. Okay. Jeff on baking steel and Indian cookbooks. First time caller, longtime listener, love the show. You've made the process of cooking and learning about food, extremely enjoyable, and exposed me to people, equipment, and techniques. I would likely never otherwise have known. That's nice. Nastasia has a smile. That's the 1st time. Usually it's vegan face or something, but she actually had a smile. It was her. I'm going to kill everyone's smile, but it was still a smile. You know, I call that that's improvement. you know, by the way, our New Year's resolution, I think, you know, Jack was here, and he did not like it, was to yell at each other
+
+[41:33] less. I think so far, it's been like a day, but... Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? What do you think? Good job guys. Yeah, nice. Uh, okay. Even inspiring, even he's like, Jack's like, why the hell would you not want to yell at each other? That's all the fun. Yeah, okay. for 45 minutes. Yeah, yeah. inspired me to do a lot more cooking at home and more importantly, to really love it. That's really nice. I like that. A couple of questions. I just obtained a baking steal and load the results I'm getting with the modernist cuisine at home Neapolitan pizza dough recipe. What procedure and a recipe do you recommend for sauce on a standard Neapolitan pie?
+
+[42:05] And two, do you have a quick Indian cookbook recommendation? I'm looking for something reliable but extremely basic. I'd like to read about ingredients, technique, and have some solid recipes for the basics you see in almost every Indian restaurant. Uh, okay. Let me hit, and then there's a 3rd question. going to hit, but let me hit the Indian one first. I actually only own one Indian cookbook, and I bought it when I was in my early 20s, right after I graduated from college. Uh, and it's called, and it's really, it's old. It's from the 80s. It's called, uh, by Yamuna Devi. It's called the Art of Indian Vegetarian Cooking. And at the time, it was this huge encyclopedic book, which is why I bought it.
+
+[42:46] And it's not going to be. not like simple by any means, but, and so I was like, wow, and I read it, and it made a huge impression on me. Uh, you know, but I thought maybe it's going to be really, really dated. So I went to Amazon.com, and I looked up, and I looked it up, and it was been, it's been re-released, and it still gets really good ratings. So in other words, people, it's not as dated as I thought. I didn't have time to go back and reread it. But it focuses mainly on Indian vegetarian. Now, over the past 10 years or so, I find that I very rarely buy, um, I very rarely buy
+
+[43:21] cookbooks on whole genres like that, unless I already know nothing about them, and I'm just trying to get a flavor for it. right? So in general, I would buy cookbooks that are on very specific regions or by a specific author that I want to work with. When I'm researching ingredients, uh, like black salt, for instance, which is a really interesting uh, Indian
+
+[43:40] ingredient, or when I'm researching as a feta, a, hang, or any of these things. I tend to do a lot of internet research and not buy books or if I buy books, they're technical books or technical papers or historical papers. So I don't have very current knowledge. That said, obviously, Matt Jaffrey is a very well-known cookbook writer, and I think she has some shorter books that might be good places to start, but I'd love someone to tweet in what their recommendations are on this subject.
+
+[44:10] Anyway, so I'm sorry I couldn't be more of help with that. But this to give you an idea of how I work usually, it's, uh, I won't buy, unless I know a writer is someone I really want to read or unless it's entirely new to me, I tend not to buy that kind of coke book. Also, anyway, whatever. On the baking steel, I know, I've never used, I spoke to Chris when they, when they were, uh, going into some sort of uh, manufacturing, when
+
+[44:32] Moneros cuisine was going into some sort of manufacturing deal. I think it was with Chris. I think Chris was still with him at the time. with some guy in New England who's making the steals for them. But the theory is that instead of using a baking stone, what you can do is use this
+
+[44:43] steel and the steel has this same sort of heat wallop into your pizza dough that
+
+[44:49] you and more at lower temperature and faster heating than a stone and so use the steel instead of a stone. Uh, I've never used it. So I don't really know about it. And I'm all about not answering your questions today. I apologize. Apologize, Jeff, but the, I don't, you do standard Neapolitan at home. My oven goes up between 840 and like 875, 880 Fahrenheit. And I have 2 independence, independently heated stones, one in the bottom of my
+
+[45:20] oven, and one in the top of my oven, plus gas. So when I'm making a pizza. I'll typically do a fairly. I'll do as high hydration dough as like Jeffrey Steingarten recommends. I spoke to Jeffrey like, what, 2 weeks ago? A few weeks ago, we saw him. And I asked Jeffrey at that time. I was like, Jeffrey, do you still stand by your very high hydration pizza dough recipe for his
+
+[45:41] style of pizza? And he does. So if you go back and, you know, all of Jeffrey's stuff, even if you disagree with, even if you disagree with him, his writing is great.
+
+[45:49] So go back and read his, like, high hydration does, but I typically don't do a high hydration, super high hydration dough for my pizzas. I'm typically like, I don't know, 65% hydration, i.e. 65, uh,
+
+[46:02] 65 grams of water per 100 grams of flour in that ratio, and a fairly high salt load, like uh, like uh, 22% or something like
+
+[46:10] that. So I do very low yeast and I let it rise for a long time. So my typical thing is, is that the evening before I'm going to make pizza, I'll blend the, you know, I'll do initially like
+
+[46:23] 100% hydration to get everything hydrated and then maybe let it sit for a little while with a very small amount of yeast. So if I'm making like 4 kilos of dough. I'll use one yeast packet, something like that. Uh, and then uh, and then I'll, I'll put the rest of the flour in with the salt. And then I'll break them into individual dough things, put them in core containers, you know, like a quarter full, and then
+
+[46:45] let them sit for a couple minutes to start, and then throw them in my fridge and retard them overnight, pull them out, like two,
+
+[46:51] 3 hours, 3 hours before. use them, and that's my typical dough, and it works pretty well. For sauce, I don't do anything that is traditional at all. I usually do, I cook tomato paste and then blend in garlic and sometimes caper, and if I don't have vegetarians over anchovies, and olive oil, and that's my usual style sauce
+
+[47:09] base for red, or I'll pressure cook a whole bunch of garlic and blend it with in
+
+[47:14] milk and then blend it along with the curve in the milk, olive oil and basil. Um, and I usually put some onions in that too. Blend that for my for my green. I have a bunch of different, but I don't have any traditional kind of sauce, but the one key thing
+
+[47:27] is just don't add too much sauce. You know, small amount of sauce goes, you want a small amount of a very flavorful
+
+[47:32] sauce so you don't waterlog your dough. I think that's the that's the key and as high heat as you possibly can. And that, and someone's going to be like, that guy knows nothing about pieces. But I do make a whole boatload of pizzas and the people seem to eat them. They seem to eat them. Just don't load it down. The trick is not to load it down. Focus on the bread and don't load down. Focus on the quality of the crust and don't load it down with too much sauce. What do you think? Oh, if you're going to use fresh super fresh mozzarella. I get, I go to, when I get it, I get from DiPolo's, and I ask them for the, the, it's still fresh, but fairly
+
+[48:02] dense. It has a lot of the water squeezed out, so it doesn't make too much water. Be very careful with adding too much high water mozzarella to uh, a cheese uh, to a pizza because it can really water water log it out. So, I mean, people who use it, I think they use it sparingly, right? And they're doing it very quickly in an oven, whatever. But just be careful. I mean, not going to hurt anyone. Okay, third. I like to start experimenting with adding salt to cocktails. If I keep sol solutions in a small dropper bottle. Is there any downside to keeping those for a long period of time? Is there any degradation or food safety issue? Also, what concentrations do you recommend starting with for cocktails and can you recommend a specific
+
+[48:34] drink ratting? A bit of salt has a profound effect. We use 200 grams of salt per liter of water. Uh, so uh, and that solution ain't nothing happening to it. We store it on the bar unrefrigerated for infinity and there's no problem. And we usually add one or 2 drops of that per cocktail. And that's about it. We add that. Okay. I have time to do one word. Oh, that's it. What? All right, Daniel, from Illinois. I will go into depth in my fried chicken technique next
+
+[49:03] time and if I have time. I'll tell you guys how I do my new lobster technique, which I think is really good. Till next time, happy New Year. Cooking issues.
+
+[49:18] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[49:28] Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Cooking issues!
+
+[0:58] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking Issues coming back at you live, and Jack is back today. Hey. How you doing? Happy New Year, Jack. You too, man. Hey, I've got a standing offer out to the guy who made that theme song. You're welcome to come rerecord it here anytime. Really? Hang out? Yeah, maybe during the show? Yeah, we just need a better recording of that song. I mean, you're the audio guy. What wrong with it? I don't know. A little garagey. It's great though. What the hell? What the hell? All of a sudden, great. Yeah, I like it, whatever. Anyway, all right. Happy New Year anyway. Also, Joe in the studio and as usual, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. What's up? You know, live Tuesday radio show. So I'm going to make an announcement. This is for Nastasia out there, people, because... I also have a question to one of our
+
+[1:51] listeners. All right, go first. Go first, go. My mom sent me a text and said, I would really like it if you knew Billy Joel. So if he's listening. If Nastasia... If Philly Joel is listening, that's a safe bet. This is not going to happen. That's like more, like, if anyone listening has ever seen Billy Joel. I've actually seen him live I saw him live. Did you talk to him? He was not talking to anyone. He was at a food event like a number of years ago and he was with, you know, Katie Lee and she was the, she was the person in charge. He was just kind of standing in the background looking kind of irritated. But, you know, not as irritated as when he pushed that piano off the stage. What was that? Russia? Really? Wasn't that Russia? Oh, you guys help? There was that time he drove a car into a house, though. I love that. You're ruining my chances by bringing up... No, that's all good. okay Sorry, Billy, we love you. Come on, man. I mean, like, I grew up, like, glass houses was like one of the most influential albums of my youth. And I'm from Long Island, so there's that. You practically are Billy Joel. right? Oh, man. So, so, so, okay, Nastasha, that was good sharing. Good sharing. So, uh, this is one, so, uh, um, Nastasia never believes that we're gonna actually do anything ever. unless we force ourselves to have deadlines. So here it is. We're forcing ourselves to have a deadline. My deadline is that in one month's time, Booker and Dax
+
+[3:13] equipment corporation, we'll be filming our 1st Kickstarter for our 1st project, and we'll have it out in a month and a
+
+[3:20] half . Now, listen, I'm not saying that you listeners should contribute to the Kickstarter when it comes
+
+[3:26] out, contribute to the Kickstarter. But I am saying you should tell everyone about it because we need to get this sucker funded. We're going to start with a very simple to make for us easy piece of small equipment that anyone can buy that's not going to be outrageously expensive.
+
+[3:42] And we're hopefully going to use that Kickstarter money to build that and also to fund our ability to hire
+
+[3:48] someone, help us get some of our more complicated stuff out there. But no, we're not doing the road app in the 1st one. extremely complicated, but I'm just saying, like, that's where that's what we're looking to do. So our deadline, our deadline now, and you can call us on it and call us bad people like you haven't already,
+
+[4:03] if we don't make it in a month and a half , right? Yes. What is a month and a half from now? It would be March first. March first? No, April, March, April. Yeah, March first. Okay, March first. So my birthday month. Woohoo. Right? Anyway, okay. So you think it's going to work? If we have a deadline, anything it'll work. Yes. Wow. You know, listen, let me tell you something. If Nastasia is not overtly pessimistic, it means that it means that we're probably in... You guys have open-ended deadlines. Always, always, because you don't believe in them. In what? Deadlines. No, I do. I believe in certain deadlines are hard deadlines. Like when I was in the art, when I was in the art community, like a 10000000005 years ago, it's like, hey, look, a show is going up, and if the show isn't up, you're shafting. You know what I mean? Dinner is a good deadline. That's why I like cooking. Hey, you know what? It's time for dinner. We have to have food on the table. Good deadline, right? These, like, I, I, like, BS deadlines don't work for me because if I know something's BS. A BS deadline is someone saying X, Y, or Z has to happen when I know full well that not only will it not happen. This is what happened. Everyone makes fake deadlines in the world, right? And it's like, here's the thing. So, so what? So people are like, I need X, Y, and Z by X, Y, date. And you're like, okay, and if you don't have it, then what? And there is no then what? That's the problem. There is no then what? You know? And that's the problem with most BS deadlines. And that ruins me sometimes, but sometimes it helps me because people have a tendency to make decisions and pull the triggers on things before they have all the data in hand.
+
+[5:38] So I'd always rather, uh, you know, get more data. But that's that's why, uh, that's why probably I don't have a lot of money. Hey, speaking of deadlines. We've got great news for you. Starting next week, Greenhorn radio will be moving to 4 PM, which means cooking issues can go until one. Oh, yeah. We're going to have a full hour of cooking issues for you people. That's right. Yeah, happy New Year. Happy New Year to all the people who have to listen to us. I don't know why, I guess no one has to. No one's like, I hope no one's strapped down in a chair and force to listen to us. By the way, how's the new hunting show going before us? Oh it's awesome. Yeah? Yeah, you got to meet him. Next week he's doing a show on the 2nd amendment. So it'll be pretty intense. Yeah? Yeah. Well, you know, I'd like to talk to him at some point about low temperature cooking and hunting. Yeah, he talks a bit about cooking venison and all that stuff. So maybe we could do a double header one week. All right. stick around. Okay, okay. Listen, I'm gonna have to rip through this because I don't have an hour yet. Daniel from last week. I didn't get to you in Illinois. My fried chicken recipe. Davis talked about making fried chicken using low temperature for insurance to cook the chicken through before breading and frying. Can you go into more detail about this method? I've also heard him mention boneless fried chicken. Tell me more. All right, 1st of all, if you want my actual recipe, almost my recipe, almost exactly my recipe. Uh, go to uh, food and wine. June 2003 and it's published on the webs. Dave Arnold, that's my name. My buttermilk fried chicken recipe, and you can get the recipe. The only, they make a couple of things like in that recipe, I don't think they tell you to completely bone out the
+
+[7:13] chicken because, but I, you know, I do that because my wife doesn't like to eat chicken off the bones.
+
+[7:18] She hates it when I talk about that because she thinks I'm making her sound puny, but I don't really care. It's not I'm making her sound puny. She doesn't like eating chicken off the bone. So why would I serve it to her that way? She's the most important customer I have if she doesn't like it that way, why would I make it that way? So what I do is I buy whole chickens. I cut off the breast. Currently now that I have small, 1st actually, you cut off the leg and thigh in one piece, uh, on both sides. Then I separate the, uh, thigh along the, uh,
+
+[7:44] drumstick at the knuckle with a knife, take the thigh, uh, drag the thigh along the 2 sides of the bone, expose the bone, put the point of the knife underneath the bone, free it from both
+
+[7:54] sides. Then cut off that little piece of like knuckle cartilage that sits on the thing. That's the thigh. I then take the leg bone, take kitchen, the drumstick, take kitchen shears, hold the fat part of the drumstick towards my face, put the shears into
+
+[8:07] the into the knuckle area against the bone and go snip, snip, snip, like 4 or 5 snips around the bone in a circular fashion that cuts off a lot of the sinews.
+
+[8:15] Then I take the shears, bam, and I cut off the little nubbing at the end that you hold onto when you normally eat. And I reach into the other side, twist and pull out the bone along with some of the sinew and very little meat. The only trick there is making sure you don't flick bone fat fragments into the ball into the little leg ball when it's done. And the awesome thing about those is they fry up like little spheres and you can eat straight through them. You get no reddening of the meat around the bone because there ain't no bone. And you get a lot more because I hate looking at drumsticks. People are like, I love the drumstick, and then they pick up the drumstick, and they only eat 2 or 3 bites off the meat because they don't want to gnaw on the bone. Nastasia. She's not even listening. It's true, though. It's true, right? Aren't you one of those people who, like, takes two, 3 bites off the drumstick, loves the drumstick meat, but only takes 2 or 3 bites off of it? Yeah sure. whatever. She's not... Yeah, all right, all right. Whatever, whatever. So then, so you have the boneless thigh and the boneless, blah, blah. And because I learned listening to Jackie Peps, that's the Jacques Pepin for all you folk out there. Then I just like take out the wishbone really quickly with 2 slices and a yank, although Nils doesn't do that when he does it. I cut off the breast on both sides, leaving the, um, leaving the tender intact. I don't bother. I used to take the sinew out. I don't bother anymore. I really don't. You know, that little sinew that runs along the tender, but some people still take it out. whatever. And now that I have little kids, the breast is kind of too large, so I separate it in half because
+
+[9:38] they, some, you know, one likes the breast, the other one likes the dark meat. Dark meat is the best. Uh, okay, so now you have the parts of the chicken boneless. I used to do then a full marinade in milk with salt and sugar for 4 hours and then dry off on a rack and then frying at a fairly low temperature so they cooks all the way
+
+[9:59] through. Now, instead of the brine procedure. I take the thighs. I find that they're too flat, if they're left flat, so I fold them back into a full thigh
+
+[10:10] shape, so that they're a little meteor, and time with one thing of string, because I don't take the time and home to meat glue it. You could meat gluid if you were doing it for restaurant presentation. And then put them into Ziplocs, Ziploc bags with a small amount of salted sugared milk. And then I cooked them. I cook higher than I would, like, if a high-end people usually like their chicks, super high-end people usually like their
+
+[10:32] chicken a little bit lower temperature, most people like it a little bit higher.
+
+[10:36] So if I was going to cook for like some fancy low temperature jockey, I would cook the thigh, the wing, the
+
+[10:42] thigh, and the drumstick meat to 65. At home, I honestly, that's Celsius. At home, I actually do 66 or
+
+[10:51] 665 for about 45 minutes to an
+
+[10:55] hour and then drop the temperature down. I leave those guys in. I dropped the temperature down to about, um, 64 or 64.5 . Uh, you can do 63 or 64 on the, on the dot, but again, I'll take it a little bit higher because like a lot of people like it, just that little bit more done. Anyway. Then I throw the breast, the white meat in, in zippies for another hour, pull it out of the bag, drain the milk. Don't lose the milk. Don't throw it away. That milk is awesome. Like, even though it's salty. If you combine that with another stock, it can make a good base for a sauce as long as the sauce doesn't have stock salt in it, right? So I save all those juices that come out of the zippy. And then I put the hot pieces of meat out on racks to let them flash off their extra moisture.
+
+[11:40] That's the key to frying stuff out when you're going to do low temp. Now that things are cooked all the way through, right? Then I do flour, then a buttermilk egg, uh, along with baking soda, baking powder, and some spices. So, you put the spices in the freaking buttermilk, not in the flour
+
+[11:57] because, A, it's impossible to dose into flour, and B, you're going to throw a lot more of that flour away. Anyway, so flour into the buttermilk thing, back into the flour, and then fry at the higher temperature that you would normally use for
+
+[12:08] French fries, potato chips, whatever else you're making that we wouldn't do potato chips that way. But anyway, French fries, onion rings, wherever else you're making that day. And that's what I do. And while that stuff is cooking off in the low temperature, I take the backs, and all the other parts, hack them up into small pieces, sear them
+
+[12:23] off, and then make a pressure cooked chicken stock.
+
+[12:27] So I usually when I do fried chicken, I end up with a milk, a salty milk stock that I can use in certain soup preparations, a regular stock, and then a boatload of fried chain. Yes. Okay. Uh, Billy Rose rides in and says, oh, by the way, if you have questions, uh,
+
+[12:43] calling your questions, 2 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. All right, Billy Rose, send in to Twitter a little bit late for last week's show, but here we got it today. I said I get to it. Cooking issues. Love the show. The hammer is my hero. Wow, hero, yeah. This is Billy Joel writing in? No, Billy Rose, but... Nice. All right, strong. The hammer is my hero. Uh, you meaning me. You are a bubbles enthusiast. Can you speak to the health benefits slash detriments of drinking them all the time? I do drink them all the time. And there are some people who, I guess, are concerned about people drinking only bubbles all the time. However, the good news is that I have not found any research to show that bubbly water hurts you. In fact, there's a lot of studies that show that it can be that bubbly water, if it's a mineral water, can be somewhat beneficial. I don't really believe those studies one way or the other. I don't believe, and Nastasia's giving her, giving her like someone just passed me a vegan dish headshake of disdain, right?
+
+[13:43] Right. Yeah. Uh, but there is a couple of studies out there interesting. One thing is to say, let's separate for a minute, the stuff that's in a soda from carbonation,
+
+[13:57] all right? So clearly, if I mean, I'm pro, I'm not anti-soda. We've had this discussion about soda bands before. You shouldn't consume a boatload of sugary soda. It should not be your primary form of hydration. And I think the issue is becomes your primary form of hydration, right? So, but I drink mainly seltzer, which is, you know, and a soda would be a treat. In fact, I tend to only drink whatever, I'm not going to get into it. But the issue, the only real health thing other than the whole discussion of sugar in a carbonated beverage is people who consume colas, whether they be sugared or not. Cola is one of the, is one of the things that's flavored with phosphoric acid. And phosphoric acid is characteristic, in fact, of
+
+[14:42] colas, and it's that dry mineral acidity that you find in colas. you like cola, right, stars? Yeah, but you don't like fosphoric acid in most other things. Right. Fair. Yeah. See, I didn't even go crazy on it. I think that's fair. But if you make a cola without phosphoric acid. doesn't taste like cola. You're like, what does this BS cola rip off? because it doesn't have that phosphoric acid mineral hit that you would normally get. Um, phosphoric acid. I don't know whether the current data is good or bad, but there's a lot of research shows out there that, uh, women in particular who consume large quantities of phosphoric acid in the form of cola can have problems
+
+[15:18] with bone density because there's a link between calcium depletion or at least absorption of calcium in the diet, and therefore, uh, you know, because you know that if you don't take
+
+[15:28] enough calcium that that your body removes calcium from your bones, did you know that? And like for instance, if you're pregnant, if you don't take enough calcium, your baby wins and your body will remove calcium from your body and
+
+[15:39] deposit it into the new baby's body. Yeah, anyway. So phosphoric acid can some of the research indicates that they can have an effect. So, you know, you want to be sure that you have enough calcium if you're consuming boatloads of
+
+[15:50] phosphoric acid and you're a woman. And there are studies in 1994 that came out that showed that even I think girls can,
+
+[15:57] like, when I say girls, me, young girls can get a higher incidence of fractures if they consume a lot of
+
+[16:02] cola. Um, however, there was a carbonated soft drink, uh, test, uh, to see whether there's any risk of esophageal, uh, cancer, specifically Edina carcinoma, came out in 2006 out of Sweden, and uh, it was called uh, carbonated soft drinks, and risk of
+
+[16:18] esophageal, uh, in a carcinoma, a population-based control study, uh, and it found no link. In fact, it found a non-statistically significant decrease in
+
+[16:27] esophageal cancer in the people who drank a lot of soda, a lot of carbonated drinks, but I'm not
+
+[16:33] going to report it because it's not statistically significant, right? Boom. What do you think? Good? And I'll tell you what, here's some health benefits. That stuff is delicious. So I drink a lot of it. You have to force flat water down my throat. I love me some bubbly water. I think bubbly water is the most refreshing thing that has ever been created. And I drink a whole boatload of it, and I feel a lot better as a person. So that's a good health effect. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, yeah, you drink bubbly water. We have seltzer on tap at the lab. I have salsa on tap at home. You know, I have my, I don't know, it's a good product. Like, what's it called? The soda stream, although I don't use a soda stream. I think it's done a lot for bringing carbonated beverages to people's houses in a nice kind of easily deliverable package. They're everywhere now. I saw one in Best Buy. Yeah, they're everywhere. You know, you go to people's houses now and like, you know, you hear the farting sound coming out of the kitchen and you know they have the soda stream and they bust out the, you know the farting sound? And you're like, you know what? It's like, I have my issues with it. Like, I don't think it's technically perfect, but it makes a good sparkly water. You know what the downside is? Most people don't filter the water that they put in the soda screw. So they put flawed, crappy, chlorinated water into their soda screen and it comes out flawed, crappy, chlorinated, uh, uh, bubbly water. Anyway, whatever. Oh, interesting. Should we take a break or should we keep going? Let's take a break All right, take a break. coming back. Clean your shoes.
+
+[17:57] You're listening to Beyond Thunderdome by Dieselboy on cooking issues on HeritageRadioNetwork.org.
+
+[18:25] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[18:35] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. Every Tuesday at 12 PM, you can call food scientist Dave Arnold and ask any question you want. Sean from Chicago, you're on the air. Hey, hey, Dave. Who am I fully? This is horrible stuff. Without glutanic acid. You die. It is a matter of taste, but there's a lot more fat in sausage than you think. Get ahead of the curve. Tune into cooking issues every Tuesday at 12 p.m. on heritageradionetwork.org. Holy crap, I sound like a nut. It doesn't make any sense to play that on your show, but we're running that on other shows, and I wanted to show it to you. Oh my god, it sound like a lunatic. Here's the other thing, though. Not really a food scientist. Have no degree in food science. it over and include me. What about no hammer? No hammer? No hammer? People, people, right. For me to find us a sink clip of you on this show, speaking from like more than a 2nd would take a long time.
+
+[19:46] No, this mustaches go, yep. Right. Okay, that's how I end it. Nope. This is a good time to address this, though. So no food scientists. What would you go with? don't know. Like my thoughts on myself aren't publishable on the air. I see. But, I don't know, Nastasia will think of something. Isn't that part of your job? figure out what we're called. This is coming from the woman that hasn't thought of a title for herself in 3 years. Okay. Air apparent. Yeah, or a parent. Duh. in the uh, in the uh, in the booker Dax cooker cooking issues, kind of pantheon, heir apparent. To what we don't know. Listen, on the 2nd commercial break, we got to have one now because I got to hear my fish is fish. can't go a week without hearing my fish is fish. Right or wrong, right or wrong. All right. Right. The answer to that is right. Okay. Oh, I met him in the bar, the next fellow. Uh, Kiriako, uh, Samo, Samo glue. going to pronounce that wrong. Someone write in, tell me how to pronounce that. Okay, um, very interesting. was talking to me about something on the Twitter. Okay, so he can't consume grapefruit juice, right? Uh, because uh, he has uh, a problem with uh, uh, cytochrome, uh, P453 A4, uh, AKA CYP3 A4, which is an
+
+[21:03] enzyme uh, that is inhibited by grapefruit juice. And if that's what that's the primary reason why grapefruit juice, you can't take it, if, for instance, you
+
+[21:14] have are taking statins or certain other drugs. Because this whole uh, battery of enzymes, right, the, um, Cytochrome P uh, 450 series of enzymes uh, does a lot to remove or to modify or to get rid of or to break down uh, drugs that are taken into the system,
+
+[21:31] right? A lot of them. And like I said, grapefruit juice can affect it. And so that's why a lot of times, if you're on certain medications, you can't have grapefruit juice. Interestingly, it's been the compound in grapefruit juice, is bergamotin, along with some other things that are similar to bergamotin. Bergamotin is the character, one of the characteristic oils in Bergamot, and we all know that
+
+[21:56] Bergamot's the main flavor in. Earl Gray Tea. Earl Gray tea. Bergamot. The fruit is the main flavor in Earl Gray tea. what distinguishes Earl Gray Teaf. It's a flavored tea, flavored with bergamot, peels. Um, so, uh, the question I always had, and I'm not sure if it was ever addressed or not,
+
+[22:13] is should you also abstain from Earl Gray T, if you can't have grapefruit. Interesting question. I don't know if anyone knows the answer to it. However, I've also wondered whether or not, clarification, specifically the clarification techniques that we use, whether or not they remove, whether or not they remove the bergamot, and I've never, you know, put it through a
+
+[22:33] sample to test it to see whether it has. But, um, apparently, um, kyako was able to, uh, uh, to have this product, you can't normally have, which would lead me to believe that we have removed whatever active principle it is at
+
+[22:46] shastit, which means we probably have removed the bergamotin. So that's it seems to me to be an interesting finding. I don't have any equipment to further delve into it. But, you know, the only issue is you could never use it as a technique to, um,
+
+[23:00] you can never use it as a technique to make grapefruit juice that it drinks like regular grapefruit juice, but is, um, free of the
+
+[23:09] bergamoten because it doesn't taste this, but clarify grapefruit juice doesn't taste the same as regular grapefruit juice. Now, you might be able to simulate it by taking, for instance, the pulp that comes out of orange
+
+[23:19] juice when they make pulp, like pulpless orange juice, and adding that pulp to a clarified grapefruit juice. I don't know. Interesting. But anyway, I was super duper interested by that. So thanks for sharing that with me. Okay, Joseph W writes in on the Twitter at cooking issues. Well, listen to your show, and you mentioned duck milk, an emotion of duck stock and fat seems cool, but what use would it be for? And you know what, Joseph? I just don't know. I never thought of a good use for it. That's why I don't do it all the time. No, but you know what? Honestly, though, like you could make very thin soups, soups that have like a lot of mouth feel with that with very little fat. Like, that's what it's good for. The same way that milk adds a great mouthfeel and doesn't have a lot of fat. You can do the same thing with a duck milk, emulsify something in, make a supra
+
+[24:05] sauce, that has really good mouth feel without a lot of fat. But I, you know, I, I, it's the, my homogenizer that I have is so horrible sounding that I very rarely
+
+[24:14] uh, do I uh, dork with it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, at this point, I'm old enough. It doesn't bother me hardly at all, but seriously, I'm around enough people who are younger than me that they just run around. And I never had the little box shield that they sell
+
+[24:27] now that you can put around it to make it a little more tolerable in the kitchen. Okay. Uh, Jonathan Hunter writes in. Hey, David Nastasia, I have a question about how to get my smoker to get a little bit hotter. It is heated by electric elements and a max temperature that I'm able to get in the box is around 210 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[24:46] I have an external smoke chamber that doesn't give off much heat. I use a Johnson control to regulate the temperature, but the elements inside are only able to push out so much heat. I'm trying to get the temperature up to about 250 Fahrenheit. The box is well insulated, so adding insulation won't help much. I'm thinking that some other kind of heat source is my solution. Just wondering if you have suggestions of how I can make this work. Thanks, Jonathan Hunter. Okay, well, 1st thing you got to do is you got to look at the wattage of your heat element, right? So I'm assuming when the way you're talking about it, the way your setup works is you have an insulated box, maybe a fridge, I'm guessing. And then in the bottom of it, you have a traditional smoker style hot plate
+
+[25:24] setup. And then on the outside of it, you have a smoke generator, and the smoke generator is generating its smoke, and then you have a thermocouple on the inside of
+
+[25:32] the of the insulated box, the fridge unit that's attached to your hot plate,
+
+[25:38] right? So in a system like this, assuming I have it right, what's going on is the smoke generator is generating smoke and the smoke generator is relatively cool. So you're ignoring it as a heating device and you're doing all of your control via the hot plate that's on the inside of your
+
+[25:53] insulated box slash fridge unit. Okay, if I'm not right, then my advice that I'm about to give you is not going to be accurate. If I am right, right, then just get a bigger heating element, right? Just buy a bigger hot plate or add in, um, uh, add parallel, not in series, add parallel, another heating element to the control loop, assuming that the relays that are used to switch it off
+
+[26:15] off and on with your controller can handle the extra amperage that's going through it.
+
+[26:19] Also, like, if you want to be strictly speaking, like, pleasant about it, I would add a, um, I would add a plate over the top of the heating element, so you're not getting any crazy radiant heat coming off of it, uh, to, you know, from the elements to kind of affect the
+
+[26:34] thing, you could add on the inside a very small fan to move the heat around, but I don't like
+
+[26:41] adding, I don't want to add anything because it's going to mess up probably the dampening and other things inside of your smoker. But if you need to, you can go something like that. But I'm not sure if I have your setup exactly right. But whatever, right? Right. Okay. Uh, Jasper writes in about tomato clarity. Hey, Dave and Nastasia, my name is Jasper, and since I'm living in Sweden, it is more convenient to have my questions asked by email instead of calling into your show.
+
+[27:06] Well, all right, fair. That said, my question is related to an application where I use a centrifuge but cannot fully achieve the result I'm looking for. Uh, the background, the goal. I want to make a transparent tomato. All right. We have a lot of people asking about tomatoes recently, right? Yeah, strange. My approach is to use fresh tomatoes that are 1st peeled. I've used canned whole peeled tomatoes with the juice removed. That not to give the desired result, but this is, of course, related to the type of tomato. It's riped, et cetera. Also, you know, they add calcium to that, which strengthens the
+
+[27:38] pectin and it's going to make it harder for you to spin out. That's why they put calcium chloride into it. That's why, um, that's why canned tomatoes are always firm, no matter what, and why if you self-can a tomato and you don't add calcium chloride or some other form of
+
+[27:50] pectin, strengthening thing to it. They turn to mush, just, you know, for your info. Two, puree the tomatoes in a vita prep. Good call. Uh, I'm glad to see someone in Sweden's using Vitapreps. Because, you know, a lot of people in the Europe, they don't have the Vitaprep. They use a thermal mix. Okay. Three, filter puree through a sieve, unnecessary with a centrifuge. Do you want to keep, I would keep all that puree in. In fact, sometimes I find that having extra solids can help
+
+[28:17] kind of compact everything down into a solid puck. So I wouldn't put it through and you're going to really reduce your, um, your, your yield that way. For, remove the air from the blending or the filtered tomato puree by using a vacuum chamber. Here, I wonder if this could be one issue since this method gives a much stronger color of the tomato puree, which in turns counteracts
+
+[28:37] the desired transparency. No, it doesn't give the puree any more color. It just removes the lack of color that the air introduces. right? You're, like, yes, no, you should deerate. The reason why, if you don't deerate when you're centerfusing tomatoes, you'll get floaty air things on the top. They're really going to cloud your stuff up. Already, you've made one thing that you're missing for, like, you say in the end, should I use Pectinex ultra SPL? Yes, like right, while you're pureeing the tomatoes in a Vita Prep, you should be adding Pecanex
+
+[29:06] Ultra SPL enzyme, which is available, I believe, even in Sweden, because they have shopping to all parts of the world for reasonable amounts.
+
+[29:13] Isn't that what they used to say? What was the copy back in the day when modernist cuisine when you guys used to be friends with them? and they used to sponsor the show? Anyway, they have moderate, moderate, modest? shipping, cheap shipping to many parts of the world. Get some pectan X ultra SPL from them. Um, blend it in the blender until it is warm. You're never going to get... I mean, you have a higher G centrifuse than I do, but you're going to get a much better, much better yield and a much more clear product by using
+
+[29:39] PectonX Ultra SPL to break down the Pecton. Okay, back to where you were. Centrifuge for 2 hours at 5,250 G's, the highest setting of my centrifuge. You don't need to go anywhere near that long if you have a, uh, if you add the
+
+[29:53] Pectinex Ultra SPL. You only need to go for like 15 minutes and that's like, you know, that's that's about it. You can go a little bit longer. It might increase your yield marginally. That's all you need to do. Uh, six, uh, you jellify it with uh, kappa caraginen, um, because it's transparent, and then put it in a mold that gives the
+
+[30:12] uh, shape of the tomato. The result is okay, a yellowish color, but far from perfect. I'm wondering if you give me some help to achieve full transparency of the tomato sphere. Okay, now look it. It's always going to be a little bit yellow because uh, Transparency and colorlessness, right? You got to always separate those things in your head. Centrifugation is never going to spin the color out of something, unless the color is only contained in the solids and not in the solution.
+
+[30:39] So the center, like the actual color molecules in solution are never going to come out. You're never going to get it to be colorless, right? So there's always going to be a yellow, uh, yellow color in the, uh, in
+
+[30:54] the, in the, in the, in the juice, right? But it should be crystal clear, right? So you got to figure out whether or not, and if you follow the instructions with Pectin
+
+[31:04] X and you spin it for a long time and you de-erate. Your tomato juice will be crystal clear. If you let it sit for a day and a half , it will probably throw off a little more flock, and then you can spin it again, and it will be even more crystal clear, however, it will still be yellow, but you should be able to read a newspaper through it.
+
+[31:21] And that's what I mean by clarity. The only way to get it actually transparent, like when I, no, sorry. See, even not making a mistake. The only way to get it clear with no color would be to do a distillation technique, but it's much more
+
+[31:33] complicated and you need to re- add back the acids and the sugars. I done it, uh, but it's a pain in the butt. It never tastes the same as the actual blah, blah, you know, the actual tomato stuff. Yeah? All right. should we take our 2nd commercial break and come back and bang out like 2 more questions? Sure. Shicken break.
+
+[31:57] And once again, this is Fish is Fish is Vodka by the Meatballers on HeritageRadio Network.org.
+
+[32:32] Oh, yeah. Right? That's like a totally different feel. Oh, yeah. This has been a sloppily engineered show. I'll just go ahead and say that. Oh, see, there's all of that nostalgia. nostalgia, like, no, never... hand clapping in the beginning for me. Never, never miss an opportunity to agree with someone when they're putting themselves down. He's never missed one. I did play the applause for you. And there she is. I went downhill from there. And there she like, she like gets on the bus. She's like the only person, she develops a catapult to throw you under the bus she's driving. Yeah, rough, really rough. Okay. Dave Climbing rides in, who has the Twitter handle. I am a fractal, which I guess, you know, well, not technically. Anyway, I'm a fracto. I love fractos. You know, I grew up, uh, uh, being like a fractal lover as soon as I learned about it. In fact, I almost got a job working for a summer in Mandelbras lab back when he was alive. And I was a kid. But I like, like, I didn't know Fortran or any of that stuff and I didn't, whatever, anyway, whatever.
+
+[33:40] For Tran. My dad still writes programs in Fort Tran, if you can believe it, for all of you who know what the hell I'm talking about. Woo-hoo, Fort Tran. Cooking your shoes. What about all those other cool things you can do with Pex and X Ultra SPL, which we just talked about, like French fries and peeling fruit. First of all, uh, all of the information on that stuff will be back up on the, I know I've said this a 1000000000 times, but the guy who now is going to take
+
+[34:02] over, making the blog, reappear in the blogosphere, is coming to the lab tomorrow to speak to us, and hopefully we can straighten all this crap out pretty soon, right?
+
+[34:10] Mm-hmm. Because, you know what? I'm sick of hearing about it. You know what I mean? I need to get it fixed. It's my fault. So I deserve all of the opprobrium that's been heaped upon me, but still, um,
+
+[34:21] So SPL, uh, like anything else. SPL is, it's a great tool. Now, I use it every day for clarification and center fusion. By far and away, that's the most, um, that's the most use that I get out of it. However, even if you're not going to clarify something and you don't have a centrifuge. SPL is still really useful. For instance. Let's say you're not going to clarify something, but you have a puree and that puree is too thick for you to use in the
+
+[34:52] applications. It's just making your products too thick. Well, you know why that fruit puree or that vegetable puree is too thick. It's the back. It's the back then. So what you do is you add SPL to it. You incubate it at 40 and it'll break down the pectin and it will thin out your product considerably and allow you to use that product in more
+
+[35:13] applications. So, I've done that from time to time. I've also even clarifying in places that don't have centrifuges. I've hit stuff with pectinex before I set it with agar to do an agar clarification because my yield will be much higher if I use pectinex beforehand. Pectinex also dissolves the white parts of citrus fruits, the albedo. And so you can make these amazingly beautiful, like, you know, you don't, it's not
+
+[35:41] a complete miracle. People think that, you know, you just dip something in this pectinex, uh, enzyme, and all of a sudden you have manner and orange slices. No, it's a little more work than that, right? It's a little more work. However, you can make supremes of citrus fruits. It doesn't really work on lime so well for some reason, but anyway, you can make supremes of citrus fruits that are gorgeous. Now, you can make pretty good supremacy fruits anyway, but they have cuts in them, and the cuts kind of mar it when it's on a
+
+[36:06] plate and it's supposed to look like, like really, you know, back in the day, you would have liked kind of a cut supreme because it would have been seen as kind of like the artistry of the cutting, but nowadays, like, I think people are more keyed up on seeing like a perfect piece of
+
+[36:18] fruit that looks almost like it grew that way. And so not cutting across any of the little vesicle things on the inside is really kind of baller. But the most baller one
+
+[36:25] is you can get supremes of things like Pomelo's. There's so much pith in them. very difficult to work with. Now, the trick about it is you have to take the peel off. And then break the fruit in half and then typically into quarters to get all the pectinex into those areas where the white is. Otherwise, it's just going to dissolve the stuff on the outside, not penetrate very far. So you have to be careful with that. If you're taking things like grapefruit peels and orange peels, you can add the pectinex to them, soak them, and then toothbrush off all of the white, all of the albedo, and you get these super thin, super
+
+[36:57] gorgeous peels that you can then candy or use for other things. We used to do that quite a bit. Pectin's also the structure on the outside of things like potatoes. And so when you're trying to disrupt this surface of it without disrupting the entire thing, we do a soak of it, and it produces a much better crust on things like
+
+[37:15] French fries. Um, and, you know, we learned that, you know, years ago, uh, I read a technical paper on it, and then we developed our
+
+[37:22] French fry recipe, uh, based on using Pectinex. You know, modernist cuisine disrupts the surface using ultrasounds, we disrupt it using
+
+[37:30] pectinex, but it's good for that. I've heard other people have, um, other uses for pectinex, but anytime that there is pecked in and you want to make that pectin go away. Pectanx is a good thing to use. Okay. Uh, also, uh, we had a message in from uh, Anjali. I will not read the message over the air, but we'll give you a holler. Maybe next time we're in the Bay Area if we have time. Uh, and uh, say howdy to uh, your boyfriend, and I apologize to you specifically that he made you spend your vacation together, uh, completing uh, the back catalog of
+
+[38:08] our uh, podcast. and you're right? Yikes. Ouch. I had someone else, like saying, saying that they, you know, had their vacation. They had a car trip and they like, they listened to a bunch of these. I was like, 0 my God. Sounds like a stressful vacation. I know it, right? And I believe my response to that gentleman on the Twitter was, my wife, like, doesn't, my, but you know what the good thing about it is? If you listen enough, you could probably tune it out. But took my wife maybe 3 years to be able to completely tune me out.
+
+[38:34] It completely tuned me out. Is that the mission of the show to train people to tune you out? Maybe. Maybe that's maybe that's what we're doing here. Right? Right? 110 episodes. There's a lot of... It's quite a lot, quite a lot of Dave Arnold. Okay. Did I talk about my lobster techniques in, or did I say I was going to talk about it, never talked about it? Oh, I never talked about it. Very good. All right. since I don't have a blog right now, what did it just go silent?
+
+[39:04] Weird. Anyway, since I don't have a blog right now, I'm gonna, and for those of you that don't know it, I spend a lot of time worrying about anesthetizing fish and crustaceans, uh, prior to dispatching them, uh,
+
+[39:15] and, and figuring out exact techniques to, um, kill fish and uh, and other things like crustaceans to make them taste uh, best, and the, the short answer is, is that the least amount of suffering, or whatever that means, the least amount of stressful, stressful stimuli
+
+[39:31] before uh, you know, slaughter. And so we won't go into whether or not it's actual pain or something. Because I'm like, that's not the, that's a very interesting argument, but it's not what we're talking about here. Okay. less stress from a physical standpoint that they go through. prior to slaughter, the better they taste. And that's been true also with lobsters. Now that the, it's a kind of a bit of a pain in the butt to, um, anesthetize lobsters. not that hard. You can get all the stuff for the Whole Foods, use clove oil, anesthetize them. We've done it many, many times. We done lots of side-by-side taste tests. But the interesting test that Nils and I ran back in the day was, uh, what about the old thing about shoving a knife through the lobster and cutting it in half at the
+
+[40:13] head? And a lot of people shy away from this just because they're squeamish. That's not really a good reason to shy away from something because you're squeamish. You know, like, in other words, it's kind of like, you know, you catch a mouse in a glue
+
+[40:24] trap and then you just throw it away alive because you don't, you'd rather do that than to see it squashed in a trap, right? But you're actually better if you just squash it in the trap and kill it right at the get go. That's actually more humane, even though it's more difficult for you to deal
+
+[40:37] with than throwing away the live mouse and the glue trap, which is not a good thing to do. right? Who feels that that's more difficult? What? Like the dead mouse in the trap. Anytime you see the blood or whatever. Imagining the suffering in the trash on the glue trap alive. Yeah. Or, or, I had to throw out a rat somewhere. I won't mention where, and there were a bunch of maggots underneath it. was really rough. But it was dead though, right? Yeah, it was dead. Yeah, I mean, but my words, like, like, let's say you use glue traps, right? It's far it's far more humane. It was under my chair. What? What? Well, he's like, I can't mention where I found it. Well, it's under your chair still. He couldn't deal with it. So it's still there. That's why I smell so fruity in him. No, but if you let's say you use glue traps, which I'm not advocating, if you use glue traps, like, more accurately, more people would throw it away, then drown the drown the mouse. Or break step on and break this back. Right. Both of which are more humane. Anyways, that's not what I'm talking about. So well, it is, kind of. So like the knife, even though you feel worse shoving the knife through the lobster's head, is a quick way to dispatch it. The trick with a lobster is lobster have ganglia running like different. it's not a central nervous system the same way we have a central nervous system. So you can't just shove a knife through, like you shove a knife through our brain and we're pretty much done, but the
+
+[41:51] lobster, you have to like bisect a bunch of ganglion that go around the
+
+[41:55] esophagus, up through the top and around, right, all along. So anyway, but you do that, and it turns out that they taste very clean, very akin to the ones that we've anesthetized, but they've lost a lot of their flavor because when you kill a lobster that way, it leaks its internal fluids, which are called
+
+[42:10] hemolith, and that has flavor. And so you're losing the flavor. A while ago, one of my last blog posts, I say, well, what if we wrap
+
+[42:18] the what if we wrap the lobster up so that it doesn't lose its stuff as you cook
+
+[42:22] it? It's vital juices as you cook it. And the results were inconclusive. Here's what I did recently, the last time I did a lobster test, and it was entirely successful, and this is the way now I advocate cooking lobsters. Get a Pyrex baking dish, or anything that's, you know, non-absorptive. Stick a small wooden block underneath the lobsters head area, put the lobster down on the wooden block. The wooden block is so that your knife doesn't get ruined. Shove a, put the knife on the back of the carapace, you know, which is the, you know, body part,
+
+[42:54] uh, you know, you know, behind in rear of the eyes, and shove the knife through and completely bisect the front of the animal. If you completely bisect the front of the animal, the hemolith is going to spill into the pyrex, right? So you're preserving all of those juices in the pyrex, right? Then what I do is you carefully take the knife, you run it around the tail, you remove the tail, you take a knife, you
+
+[43:14] cut up the cartilage things on the underneath. You remove the tail in one piece, cut up the tail shell, throw it in a pot. Then you um, then you cut, take off the claws. I leave the knuckle meat inside of inside of the knuckle things by separate them and let all of the juices that come out as you do
+
+[43:30] this, go into the pyrex. Take the claws. I cut around the claws to expose the meat, but leave them in the claws because they're very delicate, right? There's a picture on my Twitter account you can go look at. So now you have exposed claw meat, knuckle meat. I take all the small legs, and cut them up in small pieces, throw them in the pot with the chopped up pieces of tail shells. I then take the body, uh, and I chop, I remove the gills from it, and then I chop it into small pieces and I throw it in the pot with butter. I then take the take the whole thing. I bring it up in temperature, and I get the butter cooked out of it for about 15 minutes. I don't want to cook too long. You want to start pulling out calcium all that stuff. 15 minutes in the butter. Uh, and then throw in uh, the juices from the pyrex, reduce it down a little bit, uh, and then put, strain that sucker so there's not shell pieces, right, into a
+
+[44:19] vita prep, blend it in the vita prep to, like, emulsify it a little bit, and bag the meat from the lobster in a ziploc with that stuff in the butter, and I throw that into simmering water.
+
+[44:30] You don't want to boil it. You got to turn the pot off because ziplocs can't take boiling water. But as long as you're not in there that long and you never actually boil it and
+
+[44:39] then the pots are turned off so it can't boil afterward, it's fine. And that's a really good temperature for lobster, let it cook for, like, depends on how you like it. We like it a little more done than most people, so we cook it like maybe 10 minutes that way,
+
+[44:52] eight, eight, 10, 10 minutes, and then pull it out, and then the sauce is still delicious in there, and it has a pure, clean, briny taste of the
+
+[45:02] ocean. It is delicious. That's the way I now cook lobster. And cooking issues.
+
+[45:13] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com, you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:33] Cooking issues.
+
+[1:00] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Andre, host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Actually, we might be able to go to one today. Yeah. Ho! Extended edition cooking issues here, live with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and Jack and Joe in the engineering room. Hi, guys. What's up? Hi. Yeah, so I had something, I actually head banged my headphones off during the intro there. Maybe we should tighten up our headphones, huh? Yeah. Well, speaking of Joel, I kind of wanted to read this email he sent me. He's thrilled we're playing the song. He wants to take us off maybe on that offer and do a live recording. Then he says he's got all these other tracks he wants to give us, including a Harold McGee tribute
+
+[1:47] song and other stuff he's written about pigs. He says, I've been writing songs for a long time now. My wife hates them. Let's hope you like it. I want to hear the Harold. I want to, can we just like get a copy of the Harold? How fast can we get a copy of the Harold McGee tribute song? Like right now, Joel, if you're listening, we need that right now. Joel, if you're out there, let me see you dance. For those of you that listen to the Prince's Black album back in the day. Uh, so, uh, anyway, so, and also apparently we had like uh, some sort of a fire, a firebrand uh, performance going on on the show prior to this because the mic was totally loose.
+
+[2:23] Like the mic had been like blasted off of its like gimbals here and was like, you know, practically lying on the floor. It was the gun show. Apparently a, you know, a rattling time had, at least by the microphone. Is it, is this the microphone they use, this one? Uh, yeah, one of them. Yeah, yeah. That thing was, I think it was, opens hinges. Anyway. Uh, so anything good going on, says? No, not really. No? Really, literally nothing good is happening. Well, you know, wow, that makes that makes what we do sound very interesting. We weren't invited to the Christmas party. A, Christmas was a long time ago. You're referring to the Mamafuku holiday party. And I found out I found out where the invitation was. You know how whenever they send you your fake paycheck that doesn't have that says this is not a paycheck. don't get that anymore. Because you have someone else throw it away for you. Yeah, yeah, I don't get no, they ask me, do you want it? you want it sent to you? No, that's what it was on. Okay, well, it wasn't there. Because you don't get it. They literally have to, they have to print it like by law. It's printed. Like, so someone throws it away for you because you probably said keep it the hell away from me. And that's where the holiday party was. That's where the holiday party invite was on the paystub. So you, in fact, were invited. people last night where it was and no one got back to me or Piper. I like well, Piper didn't want to see you. Piper saw you all day. You didn't want to see you at night. No, no, Piper was asking me, where is it? And whatever. I did not go because I was sick as a dog last night. I was like, I got, all of a sudden, you ever have like an instant sore throat? I'm on like heavy meds now. I'm like super heavy meds. Wow. Anyways, uh, heavy meds. We're on track for our Kickstarter. I can't tell you people what it is yet, but I was testing out the thing that we're using at the pizza party I
+
+[4:10] had because every year of my kid's birthday. I have pizza party at my house where the kids make the pizza and I was using it. It's not a pizza oven. don't anyway. But I was using it. We cranked out these freaking kids. We cranked out 20 freaking pizzas in in like in like 2 hours and they ate every last one. And we only, we didn't have that many people there. I don't know where the heck all that pizza went. crazy. Yeah. Also made some fake Twinkies. some fake Twinkie. So like, you know how the Twinkies hostess is out of business, right? Right. And you know how, yeah, not only is she shopping for Zappos, folks, she's playing the music from the website. First of all, it was serious radio was on before. Awesome. listening to a competitor. terrible. terrible. First of all, anyone out there who designs a website and puts music on it. Have your head examined. Do not... Whatever. Okay. Unless you are Sirius radio or Pandora or Heritage radio network. They have to click for artists to come on. We don't just, you know, auto play things. Because we're not bad people. Exactly. We don't like, we don't invade your home, because you happen to come to our website, you know, perhaps an error. We hope not. We don't invade your home. Anyway, so hostess out of business. I bought a box before Christmas for holidays for my kids of Twinkies because they'd never had one and I grew up with Twinkies. I like, oh, kids had Twinkies. My wife was like, what the hell are you doing buying my kids Twinkies? And so anyway, they loved it. And all of a sudden, because it's not available anymore, it became their favorite dessert on earth. By Christmas time, they were up to $25 for a box of 10. I think the MSRP on that sucker was like 450 or something like that. So I bought 2 for Christmas, but then I decided I'm going to buy the, the, you can buy pans. that make Twinkies. They're Twinkie shaped pans. Everyone on the line, on the internet, they make the fake Twinkies by molding aluminum foil around spice bottles and then using that. But I was like, you know, my kids want, uh, if my, you know, if my kids want Twinkies, I'll invest the money in the pants. So I got the pants. And I followed Todd Wilbur. You know, Todd Wilbur, you're familiar with Todd Wilbur? Ty Wilbur, he has like a, since I think the 90s or something, the 80s, 90s, has had a bunch of books called like top secret
+
+[6:19] recipe, and a top secret recipe, it's like, you know, he figures out like, what's the real
+
+[6:24] oibs and spices? He's not, he's not from around here. He doesn't sound like that. He's from like New Mexico or some crap, but he's like, what are the herbs and spices in like Kentucky fried chicken and stuff like that? So, he posts, in fact, he has a recipe. I't tested it for Heinz, ketchup, fake, like Heinz, ketchup, and, you know, whatever,
+
+[6:40] go by Heinz, Heinz's delicious catchup product. Anyway, uh, uh, unless you don't like Heinz, but I think Heinz is a fine
+
+[6:47] catchup pride. Is that your favorite ketchup set? really don't care. Are you a freak? Are you a freak? How do you work in the cooking business and not care about the ketchups taste different? I don't care. I don't care. You don't care? So I could serve you poop in a bottle and say, just ketchup, and as long as it says ketchup, you don't care. I don't know. Whatever's on the table. I don't care. Like I really don't care about that kind of stuff. What the hell is wrong with you? could you not care about it? Ketchup. It's not. It's not. They taste different. That's okay. you know what? you know what? know what? You know what? You know what? You know what, Stas? Ill tell you what. I'll tell you what. I owe Stas. I still owe her a bottle of good wine for a bet I've lost. I'm just going to get her anything because what does it matter? It's wine. It's wine. What does it matter? It's wine. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what kind of grapes went into it. It doesn't matter how it was made. On air ketchup tasting? They're different. They're different. ketchup and hunch, ketchup, don't tave it. ketchup, Jack. Uh, I like Sir Kensingtons. Wow. They're friends of the network. No, honestly, I don't know. I mean, usually you get Heinz, right? I mean, I know when I taste something that's not Heinz, and I'm usually kind of disappointed. Yeah, because hunt ketchup, no offense to the hunt corporation. They make fine canned tomato products, but Hunts doesn't taste like Heinz does. I don't care. What the hell is that? You're supposed to care about every aspect of
+
+[8:08] the world. Maybe we can do a new show at one o'clock called I Don't Care with Nastasia. It's just everything. where Nastasia tackles the world because she doesn't care. Man, god dang. So anyways, uh, making uh, the Twinkies, but the problem was
+
+[8:26] the, the issue is, is that, is that the, uh, the kids don't want a good sponge cake filled with, you know, some sort of cream filling that dad can come up with.
+
+[8:36] They want freaking Twinkies. So I'm not trying to, you know, it wasn't trying to work on that. So I had to use his fake recipe, which is boxed pound cake and whipped egg whites for
+
+[8:47] the, and it pretty, pretty dang close to a Twinkie, actually. You know, Mike, like Booker was like, real Twinkie's dad are slightly better. They're slightly better. Well, I was like, that's perfect. You don't want it to be actually be better than a Twinkie. You want it to be just slightly less good, so it tastes like you're actually shooting for the Twinkie. Anyhoo, but the filling was so freaking thick. I follow the recipe. The filling is marshmallow fluff, Crisco. Transfed free Crisco. A little bit of powdered sugar and salt with a little bit of water in it. And I guess the water level wasn't enough or whatever. I don't know. It was so freaking thick that the both pastry bags that I used exploded. The hostess brand, Twinkie, like bags. No wonder they went out of business. The bags exploded and sprayed filling all over the table. It was frigging nightmare. Next time I do it, I'm going to make a thinner, a thinner Twinkie mix, but now that I own 2 pans. I guess I'm going to have to make twings open. Oh, everybody cares about Twinkies so much. You know why? Yeah, I know, but it, yeah. I mean, it's like anything is taken, you don't care about Twinkies. I do care about Twinkies. You don't care about, what do you care about? Tell me something you care about. I mean, I don't get name as things you care about. I can go above and beyond make Twinkies because now they're out of business. They never had a place in my life. Well, I never would have if my kids weren't now obsessed with it, and they're obsessed with it because they can't have it. You know, it's the same thing that everyone cares about X, Y, or Z as soon as it's gone or as soon as somebody is dead, they care about it a lot more. Right? So, same with Twinkies, especially because my kids now, like they love any kind of dessert. So they they get the Twinkies and then they they're like, 0 my god, I love it. I can't have it. I need it. You know what I mean? I mean, I don't personally care about Twinkies that much except for I care about, uh, you know, my kids. Yes, and they care about the tweaking. So you still have not named something you care about. So further proof that Nastasia's next show that she can do on her own is just like anything, anything in the world. I don't really care. I really care. Our good friend, our good friend Vidiet, wrote in saying he had a cookbook recommendation because we were talking about Indian cookbooks, but he took
+
+[10:53] a very interesting tech. Instead of recommending a book about Indian cooking, he recommended a book that is printed by an Indian person in India about vegetarian cooking, but it's
+
+[11:04] not strictly speaking, an Indian cookbook. It's kind of interesting. He says, um, uh, I'm behind the schedule podcast, but regarding Indian cookbooks, the unique book of vegetarian uh, cooking by Saraj
+
+[11:13] Joshi is an impressive book. And I don't know if, and then he added later. I don't know if it's published in the US, but her son's a friend in the book is good. She also did an all spinach book called Palak Preparations. I like that pollack preparations. Anyway, no, Sam, it's not available in the US, but I did look it up. You can't get it in the US, but an interesting, an interesting take. A non-Indian food, necessarily food. It has like Mexican food, Chinese food and any food anyway. But anyway, I said I would read on the air and there you have it. Uh, at Klas Write In. What is a good way to keep a tarot? potatoes and other starchy foods firm after cooking or maybe just firm the surfaces. Well, I mean, the classic way to keep things firm. And this goes back to, uh, the 1st instance I read about this, uh, was uh, Jeffrey
+
+[11:57] Steingarten in, I think it was in his original book, uh, the man who ate everything, which I think I told us said on the air. I always keep confusing with the man who mistook his wife for his hat. So, like, I, the titles of the... It's not, well, it's not by him. by Oliver Sachs, but like somehow I always confuse the 2 titles and someone's like the man who mistook everything for his hat or ate everything with his hat. Anyway, I always get confused, but the man who ate everything, which was probably when I read it, one of the
+
+[12:21] most, and, you know, it still is, in other words, but, you know, when I read it, especially was one of the most important food books, um, uh, that I ever read, really. I mean, really, you know, fantastic book. you know, his compilation of all his article, his articles from Vogue, not all of them, but many of them, in which he says that you should care about everything. And you should try everything. And he's told you that personally. Anyways, so he has a section on potatoes, mashed
+
+[12:47] potatoes in particular, and I think also French fries and whatnot, but mainly mashed potatoes. And it was extremely influential article on keeping them firm and together by heating them, preheating
+
+[12:58] them at a temperature to activate the pectin methylesterase enzymes that are in the potato, and thereby provide structure to it later on in the cook process. Bang. Okay. So, uh, so the, then it's a long way of saying pectin methyl estray. So here's what's going on. In, in, I mean, the problem with starch is it starch swells, it's going to burst and leak out, right? But you can harden it somewhat and protect it somewhat by strengthening the pectin that's holding the whole thing
+
+[13:29] together. Because even though there's a whole boatload of starch and potato, it still has a lot of pectin there holding things together. Now, pectin. Uh, naturally, uh, what happens is, uh,
+
+[13:42] what it's, it cross-links with calcium to get to get stronger, right? So you need calcium present. So this is why, like, you know, we use calcium to firm up vegetables or calcium chloride is used to firm up tomatoes, right? So when if you're making canned tomatoes, you add calcium chloride, even though calcium chloride tastes terrible, you add
+
+[14:04] it, and that small amount of calcium allows the pectant to
+
+[14:08] cross-link. When it crosslinks, it gets firmer and then doesn't break down when it's cooked. However, you have to use, um, the, not all the pectin has, uh, has the ability to
+
+[14:19] cross-link that way. You have to demethylate it, right? So you got to use a pectin methylesterase, which is an enzyme, which makes the pectin more readily cross-linked by the
+
+[14:27] calcium. So it's two-part process. You need to activate the enzymes that are in the potato already, usually by
+
+[14:33] heating up. I think it's like somewhere near 60 Celsius or something like this. And then maybe a little higher, 60, 65 Celsius, and you need to have calcium present. Now there's some calcium present. there already, but you can use the enzyme, pective methylestrates, which you can purchase from
+
+[14:47] Novosymes. I don't know if modernist pantry stocks it yet. But you can buy that and then add some calcium to it, or you can just use calcium and the natural enzymes that are in there to
+
+[14:56] cross-link it. Yeah? Good job. I don't care. Okay. Andrew Campbell writes in. Robbie Burns night is fast approaching. Any tips on a more modern preparation of haggis, or of cooking organs, sous vide. Have we done haggis on this show? don't think so. Haggis. I have 2 cans. We should eat it soon. You haven't eaten one yet? Your sister had it when she was into Scotland, though, right? And she loved it, right? I have a Scotch flavored haggis. Did she like the haggis? I liked it a lot. you know why? Because haggis is delicious. haggis, let me just say this. Cooking issues, the show is going on record as saying that haggis is freaking delicious product. Yeah. And you don't actually you don't have very long left. I think Bobby Burns day is, what, the 25th or something like that? Anyway, you know, you know, Bobby Burns, the famous poet from Scotland who wrote such ditties as Auld Lang Syne.
+
+[15:56] Oh, yeah. Anyway, so like they celebrate his, I guess, his birthday uh, every year uh, in Scotland, and you have haggis, and you drink scotch, and you, and you, and you, he has a poem about haggis that you're supposed to read before you eat the haggis. So for those of you that are haggis deficient in your knowledge. I'll give you the, here's how they gross you out with a haggis, right? This is what they say. It's like the heart and the lungs and all of the goopy
+
+[16:21] crap and stuff inside of a sheep and it's stuffed into a sheep's stomach and cooked and then you eat it, right? That doesn't sound so appetizing. No? Speak for yourself. Right. But to a lot of people, it doesn't sound advertising. In reality, what it is, is it's one of any number of dishes that's produced with the pluck.
+
+[16:38] So when you, when you're, the pluck is all the stuff in the center of an animal. So typically that would constitute hearts, lungs, liver, uh, kidney, all that stuff,
+
+[16:48] all all of the, the awful meat that's there. Not awful with an A with an O. And, um, And another famous dish like that in the US is Scrapple, right? A dish that I also think that everyone needs to eat much more often, assuming that they eat meat. Now, all of these awful dishes are meant to use the pluck in a way
+
+[17:10] that, uh, you know, use it, just use it. But what they do is you make the stock with it, and then you use the stock to cook a grain. So in the case of haggis, it's oatmeal mixed up with
+
+[17:22] these with these cooked pieces of meat and the stock that it comes from, stuffed inside of the sheep's stomach, which is the
+
+[17:29] lining, like a pudding case, right? And then cooked, you know, more. So the whole thing slices out like a big, like oatmeal, like oatmeal meatloaf mushy. It's freaking great. It's great. Whereas like, you know, Scrapple is all of like the pig's parts, like the hard slims, all that. Well, not anymore. But, uh, yeah, liver chopped up and then made a stock and then you take and chop up the pieces and you put it into cornmeal,
+
+[17:52] right? Which is like, you know, just a better version of polenta. And then when you fry it, get the gelatin from the stock melts. This is scrapple, and it gets all gooey and delicious, and, and, you know, it's great. fantastic stuff. Now, the trick is people are grossed out by some of these meats. And so, uh, 1st of all, you can't serve lungs in the US at all. So lungs is traditional part of Scott. You ever had lungs? No. They're good, but they're spongy. Like, I have to be honest, they're spongy. So like a typical Italian dish that my stepfather used to love when he was growing up because his dad was a
+
+[18:24] butcher, and he would bring home the hearts and the lungs, even though he wasn't allowed because he wasn't allowed to sell the lungs because he would slaughter his own sheep, was a mixture of hearts and lungs, like
+
+[18:32] from around the Naples version that was thinking a tomato sauce. And so he used to love it because the chewy parts of the heart and the spongy parts of the lung. Anyway, cook them together, but you can't have lung hair in the US. But the trick to making this thing modern is if someone doesn't necessarily, see, back
+
+[18:48] then you were making it because you wanted to use all those
+
+[18:52] meats. If you don't necessarily want, for instance, the stronger taste of liver in
+
+[18:57] your in your scrapple or in your haggis, you can just omit it if you want
+
+[19:02] to. You know what I mean? It's not going to be the same. It's not going to be traditional. But this idea of a very flavorful stock made from gelatinous and, uh, you know, flavorful, like, meat that you cook in a stock grind up and then mix with
+
+[19:17] a grain, like oatmeal, and then cook in a, in a, like a pudding way or a loaf is freaking valid, even if you were to use high grade stuff. So we made a high grade haggis at the FCI a number of years ago where we used meat that you would actually normally just eat and cooked it along with some
+
+[19:35] offel that we could put in and do it. So, you know, so there you have it. Now, in terms of cooking in general, low temperature with, with, Oh, and if you want to know about Scrapple, you can buy William Weiss Weaver's book, Country Scrapple, which is
+
+[19:51] tedious but exhaustive, and like thoroughly researched on Scrapple and its importance in
+
+[19:56] America, and tracing it back to, you know, tracing it back to Germany, Europe, and all of its
+
+[20:03] roots over there. Anyways, it's Pennsylvania, Dutch thing, Dutch, meaning Deutsch, not Dutch, meaning Dutch from Holland. anyway. So, uh, so the trick with, uh, in general, with modern, uh, cooking there is, I, so modern, when I was saying modern, I meant modern from a taste perspective.
+
+[20:18] If you want to go modern in terms of cooking low temperature sous vide, you have to remember that you still have to cook the thing at a high enough temperature to cook the oatmeal out.
+
+[20:26] So you're probably not going to do an extremely low temperature cook. Same with scrapple for polenta. You know, you still need to cook out the polenta. You need to go to a higher temperature than you normally would, but you could do it in a bag if you wanted to to keep all the flavors. And the issue is, is that a lot of times with awful and with variety, variety meats. If you're using variety meats, a lot of the old style preparation of these meats is to try to get rid of some of the inherent aromas, let's
+
+[20:54] say, that they have or flavors. And so you'll have recipes where things are soaked in milk beforehand to draw out stuff or they're parboiled 1st to draw things out. And if you don't do those sorts of things. I mean, remember that sous vide, if you put something in a vacuum bag tends to concentrate aromas over time. So if something has an aroma that you're trying to get rid of or a taste that you're trying to get rid of, you don't want to put it in a bag right
+
+[21:17] away because it's just going to seal the stuff in. The 2nd thing, the reason you'd want to do low temperature sous vide on one of these things, is because you want to make it more tender than you otherwise would. But you have to look at how tenderness really works when you're doing low temperature cooking. So, uh, let's say you're going to cook a regular piece of muscle meat that has a lot of collagen. right? And you don't want to cook it to a high temperature because you want to not overcook the muscle that's within it
+
+[21:43] to, you know, over medium rare or medium, let's say. So you do low temperature for a long time and a long, long time breaks down things like skin, things like connective tissue. Uh, and this is why this is a good technique for things like pork tails that have a lot of uh, a lot of collagen, a lot that can break down into gelatin over long cooking,
+
+[22:04] right? But and it keeps them whole because it doesn't melt them out. It just converts them to gelatin in their own place without actually melting it out the way you would in a traditional
+
+[22:15] braise. So it's fantastic for things like that. Meats like heart are not tough because they have a lot of collagen. They're tough because the muscle fibers are extremely strong. So cooking at low temperature isn't going to soften it the same way it would soften, let's
+
+[22:33] say, a short rib. What's going to happen with heart is you're actually going to break the muscle fibers down by extreme long
+
+[22:40] cooking, but that's a different kind of tenderness. Now, um, back when Stas used to pay attention to the the sous vide class that we would... I've sat through that like 5 times. Well, more like once and the rest typed your way through it. But the, but one of the classic things I want people to taste when they're tasting low temperature cooked meats is the difference between tender and
+
+[23:02] mushy because they often get confused. And um, when I cook a piece of steak too long, for instance, to me, it's no longer
+
+[23:10] tender. When the muscle fibers themselves start breaking down. It becomes mushy. And you've tasted that, right? Stas? Yeah. Do you care about that? All right. Well, so she's not talking about that on the show. But the, uh, but the, so the, the point is, is that you can tenderize something like a heart, but I think a lot of the tenderizing, you have to be careful that it doesn't edge over into the mushy zone. Also, certain things like liver, if they're cooked for a long time, in a bag, accentuate the livery flavor. And in fact, cuts of meat, like eye of round, that when they're cooked for a long time, also tend to become livery. So I wouldn't cook something that's livery for a very long time in a bag because if you do, you're going
+
+[23:52] to, uh, you're going to accentuate that that livery note. Anyway, uh, hope that's helpful, does that seem helpful at all? Yeah. What time is it? can't even see the club. So should we go to our 1st commercial break? We're going to our 1st course, go break. Call in at 718-4972128? Cooking issues.
+
+[24:14] Today's theme song for cooking issues is by Joel Gargano. The break song is Fish is Fish is Vodka by the
+
+[24:24] Meat Ballers. You're listening to heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[24:55] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the
+
+[24:58] HeritageRadioNetwork.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[25:07] restorateurs and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Play, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Oh, yeah. Back with cooking issues. What's up guys? Nothing like coming back with Dorothy. Yeah, coming back with Dora. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Dorothy. Speaking about coming back, the blog's back on the air. I don't even believe that. Is that true? It is. We don't get a clay. don't get a clap for that Oh, man. Yeah, man. You didn't believe it. Although, I just got peeded out this way. So what happened is, is that our good friend, Paul Adams, decided to take, uh, who, you know, writes for uh, popular science, uh, decided to, and he, you know, he tasted
+
+[26:01] search drumming with us. Remember that? We were talking about that on the Earth? What? Oh my god. So, well, so, Sir Stroming, is this, uh, is this like horribly, uh, it's like horribly stinky. Even I had issues with it. It's incredibly stinky fish. that is not salted enough to totally kill everything and then ferments inside. It's from Sweden. ferments inside the can. So, like, a bulging can is actually the sign of a goods or strumming. And, uh, you like keep it in this can for a year and, uh, you open it and, um, Pungent, pungent. You were there for that, right? Did you eat it? Did you like it? It's intensely freaking salty, and the smell is beyond what you would think is possible in something that you would put in your
+
+[26:51] mouth. It's like, it is like, I've never seen flies attracted to something so fast. Remember that? There was like no, there was no flies anywhere, and all of a sudden, like we were swarming. We were like beating the flies away. And only, I ate it a couple of times. I you know, got it down. We had like the rye bread and we had acave and all this other stuff. But only Harold McGee, who was like, doesn't have the vomit note that the last one I
+
+[27:17] had. Remember that? It doesn't have the vomit note. That was what his complaint. It was his complaint. They didn't have the vomit note from the 1st time or the other 2 times he had had it. The only other guy who was pounding Sir Straoming was Paul Adams. So much so that he was like, you're not going to throw that can away, are you? He also doesn't talk like that. He's like, you're not going to throw that can away. He's like, I'm going to take that back to the office, took it in a cab with him. I'm sure that this cabby, like if this cabby had been armed, Paul would have had a problem. You know what I mean? Because this was the stinkiest thing to ever have. Anyways, so, uh, our good buddy Paul, he uh, got the cooking issues back uh, back online. We finally got the passwords. We have control, but unfortunately, Nastasia. I don't know if you heard this this morning, but someone said that we are reinfected already. And it's like, you know, you try and do something. Do you guys use WordPress? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But so, so for those that tweeted that to us, we're getting that worked on and we're going to, uh,
+
+[28:16] Paul said he might actually write some stuff for the cooking issues, we're going to become a viable blog again, people. Tell me where you see it as infected. I didn't see it was infected. someone else did. You have to go to my Twitter account. She's like, I can't be bothered. I can't be bothered I just have one thing for Joel Gargano. If he's going to do a Harold McGee kind of tribute band that maybe
+
+[28:39] might want to call it vomit note. Whoa, you know? I don't know that Herald would... I don't know. Well, yeah, I guess. You never, I mean, it's hard to say. Just such a cool band name. Vomit note. Vomit note? Is that like, is that like the brown note? That note that you hit and you don't know whether you've been able to hold it in. It's a good one. Anyway. That's why I played why I learned to play bass, by the way, is because, you know, the notes, like a really good
+
+[29:07] base cab when you're playing live and your amp's really good and your bass guy's really good. Like, you really have to squeeze tight to make sure that you've maintained control because your body is vibrating so much. And that
+
+[29:18] is, that's the, that's what's so awesome about playing the bass. No one with me on this? Okay. Wait, what do you mean? You went to rock concerts all the time. You know what I'm talking about? I only watch the drummer. I only watch the drummer. By the way, Nastasia obsessed with, uh, there's a feeling coming in the air tonight by Phil Collins. No, everyone, go online, Google the video when he's
+
+[29:41] live and he sings the entire song walking on stage and you're worried he's not going to make it to the drum set before that important part, but he
+
+[29:49] does. I guarantee I'm not worried about it. Finally, we found something that I'm not worried about that you are worried about. Phil Collins making it to the drum set. Alright. Josh Krieger writes in on heating elements and cast iron. Nastasia and Dave, 2 questions for you. What kind of heating element is used in the polyscience immersion circulators? Are they PTC heaters or something else? Well, for those of you not in the heating note, a PTC heater is a positive temperature coefficient heater.
+
+[30:14] Uh, and uh, what a positive temperature coefficient heater is, is it's, um, a heating element, they're usually like chips. They're like, you know, chips. And they're arrayed. You put a bunch of them in, you heat them, but they, they, hotter they get, the higher their resistance goes, but it's not in a linear fashion.
+
+[30:31] So over a normal kind of heat range where you might want to control a heater, it has a relatively low resistance. And then as soon as it heats up beyond a certain predetermined point that
+
+[30:41] they determine by what they dope it with. I think they're usually made with barium tightenate and they have a little doping crap in it to change the temperature at which the resistance really change, but you hit a certain temperature and all of a sudden, bam, the resistance goes way up, which throttles the power down.
+
+[30:55] So they're called self limiting because they can't burn themselves out. And that's an advantage. So by the way, no, polycience does not use them. Polycience uses standard resistance heaters with stainless steel sheets. So they use a, you know, a bendable tubular immersion heater with a stainless steel sheath in them. And the way you could tell that they use it. Actually, I don't know. I haven't opened up his new one. I haven't opened up the, I haven't opened up the, what's the new one called? The inexpensive one? I don't remember the name of it. Sous be creative, I think. So be creative. I haven't opened up the super to be creative, but none of the older ones use a PTC heater. The advantages of the advantage of a PTC heater is it doesn't require a secondary, um, uh, it doesn't require secondary safety. So if you look at one of the old polyscience circulators or even, I guess, you know, the professional, which is, you know, the one we have, there's a
+
+[31:48] little what looks like a stainless steel sausage strapped to the heating
+
+[31:53] element. And that is a safety thing, such that if the tank runs dry, or if anything like that happens, and the temperature of the heating element shoots up, then that shuts the system off, right?
+
+[32:07] So, and the advantage, you know, that's standard way of doing it. The advantage of the PTC is it doesn't require that. And also, if it goes over temp, it doesn't actually shut
+
+[32:17] the, it doesn't shut the system down, it just throttles the power down to a point where it's not going to harm anything. So that's the theoretical advantage of the of them. They're super advantageous in situations where you know that you're not going to be able to stop
+
+[32:32] crud from building up between your heating element and the temperature measurement that's going to use
+
+[32:38] it, right? Because then if inefficiencies can mean that your helium, it can get so hot that they can burn themselves out. Not really the case in an immersion circulator. But anyway, uh, PTCs, um, I've only recently been starting to, I think, really being used quite a lot in new applications, so I don't know if Philip will use
+
+[32:54] him eventually, but he's not using him right now as far as I know. Yeah? Yep. Call her. Whoa. Reverb color, you're on the air. Yeah, listen, Dave, how are you doing? Um, This is Matt from a couple
+
+[33:10] times before, but I have a 2 hard question about kombu today. Okay. Um, is combo fat soluble, i.e. is combo in oil, will it enhance the flavor of whatever I cook in the
+
+[33:23] oil? Okay, so we're talking about combo, which is seaweed, giant kelp that, you know, most famously used for making dashi in Japanese cuisine, also used for curing things like fish, where you wrap, and
+
+[33:39] also, as Nils used to do, duck, where he'd wrap the duck and combo, let it sit and you develop kind of a cured layer on the outside. Okay, so, I mean, obviously the salty stuff is not really oil soluble, right? But I don't know. I don't know about the other flavors. We've never, to my best my knowledge, we've never done an oil-based combo. I know that the skin of the duck, which has quite a lot of
+
+[34:02] fat, picked up a lot of really good flavor from the combo, though. So I know that's the case. But, you know, it's hard for me to say whether or not it's the water part of this skin that's picking up the combo or whether it was the oil part.
+
+[34:17] It's a really fascinating question. Uh, you know, you tend to think mainly about, um, you know, amino acids, you know, and, you know, glutamic
+
+[34:27] acids, in particular and other things getting liberated from kombu by the, um, uh, you know, by the cooking process in Dashi.
+
+[34:34] And of course, you know it has all the polysac rides in it because it's a seaweed, and that's what's providing the structure. But I've never thought about the, never thought about oil. Please give it a shot and send us a tweet and tell us what happens because, you know, it sounds interesting. I'd like to hear what happened. All right. But be honest, if you want to see where the question comes from. I was watching the recent season of Top Chef and in one of the episodes he had a fryer and he actually had combo in the fryer. So I've been thinking about a couple weeks now, but is it fat soluble? Would it really work? I don't know. I hadn't tried it, but I did do a lot of research online, so I figured I'd call, I called the person that might leave the answer. Wait, so he was using it not to make a crispy fried combo, but to flavor the oil? Yeah. And on research online? Did they say it worked or no? No, I couldn't find anything that said that was that soluble or, um, glutaminate, I'm
+
+[35:28] going to say it wrong, but, uh, what time is he after or the meal acids were fat
+
+[35:32] soluble? Yeah. See, here's what I here's what I would do. I mean, although, you know, cross is a blood braver, whatever. But here's what I, here's what I, or doesn't know. I always get my brain confused. No, one does, the other one doesn't. No, it doesn't. Yeah, it's it's not. anyway. So the, uh, what I would do is, um, I would just run a side by
+
+[35:49] side, uh, test where you, you know, uh, and then serve it to someone to see if they can tell the difference. Even better, yeah, do a triangle test whether you serve them three, 2 of them are the same and one is different and have them try and figure out which
+
+[36:01] one's which and why. Fair enough. That sounds great. I will just... The 2nd, yeah, the 2nd part of the question is just recently read the article that was written by the food lab on seriously. It's about, um, brining, uh, chicken and turkey, and talks about how these are protein, br-, uh, brine, like chicken stock doesn't
+
+[36:20] flavor the meat per se, because the particles in the chicken stock are too big to get into the protein, even though the protein expands.
+
+[36:29] Right. Um, I question it if you were to put kombu in the brine. Do you think that the lieutenant acid or the amino acids will get inside of the protein or is it does for
+
+[36:42] shell? Huh, I don't know. I mean, like a kombu definitely flavors the surface of the meat and causes a curing because it has salt. There are, there are very small water soluble molecules in combine that will do some penetration. I don't know. I mean, so, you know, individual amino acids are not large, but I don't know what their diffusion characteristic through the surface
+
+[37:06] of a meat is. Others, you know, be like, because salt is really small. You know what I mean? Right, because the salt helps open up the protein strands. Uh, right. Well, it changes, like, it shifts the confirmation of the protein, right? There you go. Um, so, but the, the, I don't know. I was going to say, I don't, as another thing, I don't know. My, my, my guess is that that you're not getting too much effect past the surface unless you inject it. Or, or if you have, you know, holes in it, you know, but like, this is why you usually, if you're going to,
+
+[37:42] like with a broth or something, you inject, you inject it in. I mean, salt, small molecules, things diffuse through, but, uh, so I guess that means I'm in agreement with the, uh, with the serious
+
+[37:52] seeds post then, right? Okay, yes. Uh, well, I'm working with... Oops, cutting out. not understanding Yep. I said, I said, I'm working with an old friend of yours here in Chicago. Oh, yeah? Yeah, with Mousa. Oh, yeah? How's doing? Yep. He's doing great. You're really good. Nice. All right. Well, say howdy for me. been a long time. I will for sure. I will for sure. And uh, he's uh, teach me a lot of great stuff. I'm learning everything I ever needed to know about hydrocolloids and. And so that's that's pretty much it. So, uh, great radio station or radio shelves. Thank you very much and I'll keep listening. Thank you. Awesome. thanks. Jack putting the reverb even on me like that? Yeah, On the thing. Thank you. You, you, you, you, you. All right. So Josh Krieger's 2nd question in was, I have a 14 inch cast iron skillet. I'm thinking about flipping it upside down and using it as a baking steel for pizza. Is there a temperature where the seasoning on the skillet would start to degrade, i.e. can I use it at 550 degrees Fahrenheit without issues? Okay, before I get into that. So the pizza steel is this thing that, you know, the modernist cuisine guys were saying that they use a very thick piece of steel that they heat up and that delivers a wallop of heat
+
+[39:06] to pizzas. Uh, you know, they say in a more effective way than something like a stone uh, wood and it's easier to load the heat into than a stone, right? Now, my question is, I don't know if a cast iron pan is
+
+[39:20] enough stored energy to do what uh, what uh, Josh wants here. But that's not the question, so I'm not going to get into that question because that wasn't the question. Uh, now, 550 Fahrenheit, you're getting you're getting very close. So let's go back to what a cast iron seasoning is. So cast iron seasoning, seasoning a cast iron pan, you're doing a couple of things. And by the way, last night when I saw this question. I went and, you know, did a re-researched, because occasionally people, like, changed their, you know, write new things about, you know, what's going on. So I was just checking up. Uh, and I found actually a really old uh, thread on the garden web that written by this kind of like, it's interesting dude from Louisiana, Dan
+
+[40:06] A. B. uh, Z9 LA for Louisiana on the Garden Web, and not Louisiana, not LA for Los Angeles, LA for Louisiana.
+
+[40:15] Anyway, and he's like a retired chemist, and he has, strangely, on this garden web thing
+
+[40:20] from like 2007, possibly the best explanation of what's going on in Pancureon that I've read. Anyway, so in a pan, in a pan carrying situation, you're taking an oil or fat. You're putting a thin layer on your pan and then heating it till it's past a smoke point. It starts to turn black break down. So he says that there's 2 things that are going on. One, you're polymerizing the oil, right? By breaking it, breaking it down at wherever it has, like a double bond, breaking it down and it's forming a polymer. The polymer is hard, right? But also breaking fat down in general into its smaller parts and leaving carbon residues. And, uh, you know, I looked it up and carbon residues of oils is one of the things people measure, especially in
+
+[41:02] the petroleum industry, because they need to know how much soot is going to be left over when oils are burned or when they're degraded,
+
+[41:08] right? So he says you want that carbon because the carbon is adding to the kind of the non-stick principles. So it's a combination of polymerization of oil and the carbon is put down. But if you heat it too high, you're going to break down that those polymers that you put on it. And the problem is, is that the temperature at which that happens is going to depend partly on what oil was there to begin with, along with a lot of other factors. I will say this. Um, I have burnt the seasoning off of pans in my
+
+[41:41] oven. Now my oven gets hotter. I say before I do pizza in my oven. My oven gets up to like 850, 875 degrees, and it will easily burn the seasoning off of a cast iron pan.
+
+[41:53] Uh, the, um, self-cleaning on an oven, which runs a little bit hotter, a little over 900 Fahrenheit is going to burn the seasoning off of a cast iron pan, uh, just vaporize it. I've had pans on my stove over heat and lost some seasoning on them when I'm going super, super, super high heat on these little cast iron skillets that
+
+[42:15] I have. So, uh, I, you know, if you were saying 500, I'd say you're okay. If you were saying 650, I'd say not okay. I have a bunch of stone bowls that get seasoned with oil, you know, hot stone bowls for Korean
+
+[42:31] food. And I get them up to about 615, 620 all the time, and that wipes out the seasoning on the bottom. So, uh, you know, it's tough to say, like, if you can guarantee your 550, you're probably going to be okay, but if you go much higher than that, it's going to be a problem. You know? But check out, check out Dan A, B, Z, 9, LA on the
+
+[42:54] Garden Web, so you can, you check it out. Another interesting thing is that um, uh, there's another blog out there. I forget, her name is Cheryl Cantor. I forget the name of her blog, but she has an interesting post on cast iron, where she actually, because the whole, the whole point of, you know, you're familiar with drying oil, like linseed oil for
+
+[43:11] painting, yeah. So it's like, she's like, why not, since what you're trying to do is form a polymer. Why not use the oil that's actually good at that, even at room temperature, which is flaxseed oil, linseed oil. And so she seasons now all over pants with flaxseed oil and she says she gets really good results because there's a lot of people on the internet that really care about what
+
+[43:28] they, what oil they use. And Dan, Dan, I'm going to say it again because I can't. Dan, A, B, Z, 9, LA. You should do it in the army
+
+[43:36] code so people know what they're, you know. But Alpha Bravo say. But I don't know whether he was ever in the army or not. I know he's in Louisiana. People are writing it down. They're not writing down like C instead of Z. Here's why I've never met this guy, Dan, but here's why I like his posts because it's
+
+[43:50] like he just says something, and then like later on, you find out that like he's only started dipping his finger in the kind of crap that he knows because he's like, he's like, I don't
+
+[43:59] know. Because at one point someone asked him a question. like, I don't know. I got another good 10, 15 pots. I got a season tomorrow, so I'll test. I'm like, Tan, what the hell does this guy do? Like, he's a retired chemist. He's like, well, here's what I do. Here's what I do when I'm re-seasoning my 30 gallon cast iron hog cooker. I'm like what the hell? know what I mean? So anyway, so my man, my man Dan, Dan, whatever it is, Dan A, B, Z, 9, LA. Anyway, like to meet that guy someday. Uh, okay. Oh, and Josh, thanks. He says, thanks as always, the show is fantastic. Continues to improve the way I cook and the quality of food I produce, which I appreciate. Justin Thrasher writes in on barrel aged cocktails in the Cornelius keg. Hey, what time is it, Jack? Ooh, let's take one more crucial break. Come back. Cooking issues.
+
+[45:16] Every Wednesday at noon, Dorothy Ken Hamilton, founder and CEO of the International Culinary Center, interviews the top chefs in the
+
+[45:36] world on Chef Story. Hear from chefs like Christina Tosi. I'm going to be the best pastry cook this restaurant's ever seen. Francis Moment. With fires, it's very feminine. It's very fragile, and Jacques Pepin, that when invited to work at the wedding out for John Kennedy, learn how the greats become great every Wednesday at 12 p.m. on
+
+[45:57] chef store at heritageradionetwork.org. It wasn't that John Kennedy. It was actually a different I'm kidding. from Jersey. Yeah, John Kennedy from Jersey. was working at the White House at the time. No, no, no, no, I love I love my man, Jack Popin. He's done some, he's done some cool. You know, he was like, I think he was Mitorons. Was it Mitron, Chef? Was he chef for Minerond, I think, for a while? And he's got an amazing story. read his autobiography I have. He's one of the reasons that I'm cooking today, in fact. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Jacques Pepin, back in the day, I used to watch a show on PBS. And, uh, when, like, when I was young, uh, you know, I, one of
+
+[46:35] the, one of the early cookbooks I bought was his kind of mid 80s, two-part book on, uh, on, on cooking, it was all in color.
+
+[46:43] It was like expensive. I got it as a remainder because it was so far ahead of what Americans wanted to see. He teaches you how to skin a baby lamb in this book. And so it's his two-part series. I think it's called the I forget what it's called. Anyway, but it's not the large black and white one, which is a fantastic bargain, but
+
+[47:02] 2 part by Knopf, uh, color series that uh, Jacques Pepin did. Anyway. Sweet. Well, episode one of Chef Story, too. Cool interview with him. Yeah. Life story. Yeah, it was really interesting. Yeah, yeah. Good man. Uh, okay. Justin Thrasher writes in. Hey, Dave, love a show. Listen weekly, and I'm contemplating trying to get cocktails to force carbonate them later on. Ultimately, I would be able to like to barrel age cocktails in a small 2.5 gallon Cornelius
+
+[47:28] keg. Cornelius kegs are the kegs that are used for soda manufacturer back in the day. It's called premix where you'd mix the soda water and the syrup together and a keg, carbonate the whole thing and force it out. They look kind of like tall, skinny beer kegs. And the system went out of favor, but home brewers have been using those kegs for years because they're fantastic for small 5 gallon brew sizes for home brewers. They also make a smaller 2.5 gallon Cornelius keg. However, they're a lot more expensive than the 5 gallon. just for those of you that don't know what a Cornelius keg is. Okay. Ultimately, I would be able to like to barrel age cocktails and a small 2.5 gallon cornelius keg, and then later carbonate them to serve. Can you possibly add any of your expertise? Nope, no, I'm just kidding. That's the style that always allows me to say. Nope. So here's the deal. Barrel aging is there's a couple of things going on. So in barrel aging, it typically means it's in a barrel, meaning there's wood. So if you're going to add chips to this thing, because you're going to age, because you have to add chips, you have to pull the chips out before you're going to carbonate. If by aging, you just mean letting it mellow. So Tony C, Tony Cuniglaro, or Coniglaro, as the baseball fans here in the USA. You know, for many years, he's aged cocktails in the bottle and the aging in the bottle is not the same thing as aging it in a
+
+[48:45] barrel. He's doing it like the small amount, the marrying of the spirits, the reduction of the proof, although he doesn't dilute it beforehand, but the reduction of the proof because of things like added vermouth, plus the little bit of oxygen that's in the bottle and remixing
+
+[48:56] it causes it to age over time in the bottle. Okay. Now, more recently, um, people have been barrel aging, and in that case, you have the oxygen effects, the marrying effects, and the effects of
+
+[49:08] wood, but for that, you need wood, but they're too semi-related, but different kinds of things.
+
+[49:13] So if you're going to do it in a corny keg, you're going to have to add wood chips because corny kegs are stainless steel.
+
+[49:17] Another thing is, is you're going to have to, like I say, remove the wood, but also you're not going to want to age something in a Cordelius keg like that at when it's diluted. So you're going to have to do it full strength and then you have to dilute it before you carbonate it. You have to dilute it before you carbonate it. Another thing about carbonating in a cornelius keg and forcing it out with forced carbonation is you're going to need to get that sucker cold. I like, look, I like things that are very bubbly. If you want a very light bubble in it, then you don't need to get it as cold. Then ice water cold is good enough, but for the stuff that we carbonate at the bar, we're carbonating down at like 22, 23 Fahrenheit,
+
+[49:50] like minus, what is that, 8, 9, 10 Celsius. Also, you're going to need to buy a cold plate, because in order to get something out of the keg, cocktails foam a lot, you need to mellow it out, to mellow it out, you're going to need to put the cocktail through a cold plate to allow it to go along a bunch of
+
+[50:05] smooth tubing beforehand, and you're going to need to get what's called a Becker squeeze valve, B-E-C-K-E-R squeeze valve. You can get it from, oh, my gosh, okay, Mark Powers in Guntersville, Alabama. They have it, and those valves have a compensator in the back and allow you to do it. And that's the only way, everyone I know does it, uses those valves. I've used those valves for many, many, many years, and the valve is going to make a big difference. You're also still going to get a lot of foaming. You're just going to get a lot of foaming, right? I mean, it's just gonna happen. Okay. Matt Wilson writes in. I'm looking to buy a centerfuge. I'm searching eBay. I found a Hermley, ZK380. and he gets a link. Is this a good candidate for home use? I'm close by and can go pick it up. It doesn't come with a rotor, and I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. Matt Wilson, Matt, that is a huge issue. I would not, even though it's only like 150 bucks. I mean, unless you know you can buy a rotor from someone, I mean, without the rotor, the
+
+[50:58] centrifuge might as well just be a big doorstop. You know what I mean? So unless you know you can get the rotor in the buckets for that sucker, I would stay away from it. If you can get the buckets and rotor, look, let's say you can buy another one. the centrifuge looks fine for specs. I mean, it's got a little small, it doesn't have that large buckets. I think it does one liter at a time. But let's say you found another ZK. This is what I would do. Let's say you found another ZK380 on the internet and it has a good rotor, but maybe it's a little beat up and you're worried about the brushes not being good or whatever.
+
+[51:26] By the sucker for spare parts. For 150 bucks as a spare parts machine, if you already have a good rotor and buckets, that's a good deal. But trying to find rotors and buckets is like needles and haystacks and buying them new. This is a very old machine. I looked at the manual online is old. Like I would stay away from it. I would always go try to get one that had a good working rotor
+
+[51:47] in buckets, and the rotors and buckets have to be good, not dinged, not like viciously old, not
+
+[51:53] mutilated, and you're still taking a risk by using a used rotor because you don't know what the other person did.
+
+[51:57] You don't know whether they use the bucket to, I don't know, like pry their car door open. You don't know what the hell they used it for. You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. Uh, Joseph W writes in, uh, at cooking issues. I work at a restaurant in Atlanta. We have a Paco jet. What are some good paco jet uses other than ice cream and sorbet? Thanks. That's mainly what we used it for when I, you know, when I used to have access to one at the French
+
+[52:18] culinary, we almost always made ice cream with it because it was so good at it. Um, but, you know, it, so there's a new set of blades you can buy, uh, called a coupe set that allows you to do a lot of work with it, uh, without freezing first.
+
+[52:33] So you can do farces, like, you know, mouses and meat farces and grinding things with apaco jet without 1st freezing everything. Because, you know, one of the downsides of everything is that you have to freeze everything. So it comes with a whipping disk, although I don't know why you'd want to whip cream in apaco jet because it makes no sense. But what it does do is the whipping disk. You can throw fresh fruit in with the cream and the sugar, and it'll whip the fruit directly into the cream without having to do a pre, like a puree or something like that. So I guess that's theoretically an advantage. But typically what you would do on the savory side is like, let's say you wanted to store a bunch of stuff like
+
+[53:05] herb and you wanted to put like a concentrate or an herb or a puree of that herb into something like a soup. Um, in a paco jet, which's awesome is you pack it into a paco jet container and you just use the portion that you want, you do it, and then you stir, it's frozen, so it stays good forever, frozen solid like a block.
+
+[53:23] And then you just, you know, you spin in the paco jet, whatever part you need, and you add that part to whatever you're working on. soup, sauces, and it melts right in, right? Certain other things when you're doing farces or mousses, rather, if they have enough structure, you can freeze them and then scoop them if they have enough structure to hold after they thaw out and serve them as is or if they're cold.
+
+[53:43] But a lot of things, they're, what they're doing is when they're making mousses with
+
+[53:46] apaco jet, they're using the paco jet to make a very, very fine texture. Because you got to remember, paco
+
+[53:52] jet. The texture on a paco jet is smaller than the texture you can get out of a Vita Prep. The texture out of a Vitaprep is not quite smooth enough for your tongue to not
+
+[54:01] registrate. The particles are over 20 micrometers in size. Whereas just slightly. I think at maximum efficiency for a vital prep. Whereas in Apoco jet, you're getting ice crystals that are crystals, shavings that are small enough for your tongue not to register them as individual grains.
+
+[54:16] I, smaller than 20 micrometers. Uh, you know, more on the order of ice cream crystals. And so you can make purees of things that are extremely smooth by freezing them, spinning them in the paco jet, and then using that puree, thawing it, and then when they're making a moose, they don't make the moose directly in the paco jet, what they typically do is they'll freeze it like
+
+[54:36] whatever. Like on Pocket Jet's website, they use broccoli. I dont know whether they do that, but whatever. And then they cook the broccoli, they put it in the paco jet. They freeze it solid. They spit it down, and then they make a mousse out of that with whipped cream and gelatin like a standard mousse. But I don't know. Does that help at all? Okay. And last, on the way out, because I have, it looks like 4 minutes. There's a, I don't know, in the, in, in, in, I've been at, you know how like people reference you? Well, you don't know because you hate social media, but they reference you in a Twitter thing. Anyway. So I've been referencing this in this line of stuff about Cooks Illustrated and
+
+[55:07] Pressure Cookers. You're going on their radio show. on Valentine's Day. Yeah? All right. So anyway, so they rated cook, they rated pressure cookers. And they didn't rate the Coon Recon one, which I like a lot, so highly. And they rated the Fagor one. Uh, uh, you know, highly. of their favorites. And there's all this like Twittering around on like, well, what's good and what's bad and what's not. Um, Here's my 2 here's my 2 set, because we talked about pressure cookers, uh, recently. Go Re- Cooks Illustrated now has their ratings online. And this is one of those situations where I think their ratings are pretty off based. Uh, you know, go look at a hip pressure cooker, uh, you know, the blog, that blog, go look
+
+[55:51] at uh, Miss Vicki's pressure cooker. But the people who Cooks Illustrated Dinged the Coon Recon one because they said that it was hard for them to adjust the temperature on it.
+
+[56:01] Whereas for me, it's like, Coonrika, and they also, they said, for
+
+[56:05] the, read that Cooks illustrated, uh, the, um, what's it called, reviews on this. They said that the coon recon evaporated the most water of all like money of the pressure cookers they took. It is exactly the opposite of the truth. The reason I like Coon Recon is twofold. One, it's extremely easy at all times to see exactly what the pressure is inside of the
+
+[56:25] coon recon, because there's a spring that indicates exactly what the pressure is inside of the
+
+[56:30] coon recon thing. The reason I don't like the Fagor model is because it does not indicate its pressure unless it's venting out material. And people get this confused all the time. Here's what's going on. In a pressure cooker, there are 2 things happening in something like a fake oil pressure cooker. There's an indicator that the unit is under pressure at all. And that's a little yellow dot that pops up. As soon as that little yellow dot pops up. You know that the unit is under some amount of pressure. However, you don't know what that pressure is. You just know it's under some amount of pressure, right? Then you keep the thing going and you don't know what's going on because nothing happens
+
+[57:04] until steam starts coming out of the vent, right? So the Fagor one is a venting pressure cooker, which I don't like. I don't like it because it affects the flavor of things like stocks. At least it has in the test that I've run with it. Now, the only way to keep it at pressure then is to make sure that you're keeping that little steam going all the time, which I
+
+[57:21] don't, I don't like. I've never liked it. Another thing I don't like is because there's always steam going through that valve, when you're working it, that and the valve is a mechanism that turns, that valve gets clogged very easily and gets burnt out very easily.
+
+[57:33] Of the 5 Fegor pressure cookers that we had at the French culinary Institute for the 5 years that I was working with Fegor pressure cookers there. We burnt out everyone that we had. The mechanisms, got burnt out because they got clogged and they wouldn't hold anymore because they're hard to clean for the students that are working with
+
+[57:48] them, or they would melt out because someone had flames looking over the side and the pressure mechanism, which is very close to the side of the
+
+[57:54] pen and the fagor would get ruined, right? That's never happened to me in a coon recon. I've had the handles broken off of my coon recon. I've had the little plate on the top, the diverter plate get ripped off and thrown away, but the sucker still holds pressure and doesn't clog, and the valve is extremely easy to clean. Also, Kunricon doesn't need the vent at all. If you venting in a coon recon, it means you put it over pressure and the safety is released where the spring goes up and release steam out of the same spring valve.
+
+[58:23] So, uh, you know, both those criticisms of the Coon Recon, Coon Recon's also fairly easy for me to to, uh, adjust. So go online, look it up, Coon Recon, still... my favorite pressure cooker. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archives programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Catskill Provisions, located in a small corner of Northwest Catskill Mountains, they specialize in creating raw, all
+
+[0:07] natural, handmade food products. For more information, visit catskillprovisions.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Cooking your shoes.
+
+[0:54] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello, and welcome to cooking issues coming to you live but late in the back of Roberta's pizzeria on Tuesday and
+
+[1:07] b- b- b- Bushwick, baby. Nice. sounds like a Bootsie Collins Bushwick. Yeah, sharing a little bootsie. Bushwig, baby. Yeah. So what happened today? Why am I late? Yeah. I was like my normal, like, it's normal. Okay, it was not because it was not because of last night's Booker and Dax's
+
+[1:28] one year anniversary party, which was crazy, crazy party. We had, uh, we, uh, Booker and Dax, which is the bar, you know, that I have, uh, attached to
+
+[1:39] sambar, you know, the, uh, uh, the Momafuku restaurant of great repute. And, uh, anyway, uh, we had our one year. One year we've been open one year, so we cleared away, like all of the chairs. We had a piñata full of airline bottles of St. Germain and Haribo. It was crazy. I beat it with our baseball bat. We have a baseball bat at Booker and Dax there that everyone who works at or has worked at Booker and Dax at any point signs the baseball bat
+
+[2:05] in Sharpie, and it is, you know, it's up there as kind of a customer relations tool, but also, uh, also for piñatas. Which, you know, my dream is to have regular piñata service at the bar. We can't do it now because we don't have an area where we can just devote it to
+
+[2:23] piñatas. You know what I mean? Wow, you'd probably be the first. I mean, imagine if you could go, this is my dream. You go and, you know, look, if you do it at your bar or restaurant, all you got to do is say, you know, just give a
+
+[2:36] little, give a little props back because here's, here's, everyone would want to go to the, on their birthday and and beat a piñata while they're drinking that's full of
+
+[2:46] like cool things. Not like necessarily the crap that you got when you're a kid, although the odd hot wheels car would not be bad in an adult piñata as well, you know? Uh, but, uh, you know, kind of like, yeah, adult candies doesn't have to be full of airline bottles of booze. It was provided by a booze company. And that's why, you know, ours was full of airline bottles of plastic airline bottles, by the way, total, we're safety conscious folk. But anyway, that's not the reason I was late. I was trying to find some information. I couldn't find my copy of Lowry's meat science. And by the time I finally found it, I missed the subway that I normally get. That's the actual reason. Nice. Yeah. But anyways, unfortunately, today, not joined in the studio with the Hammer, she is, she has some non-cooking issues that she has to take care of today, so she won't be joining us.
+
+[3:34] And so, you know, Jack and Joe think, thank God, are here with us today, but, you know, I don't yell at them because they don't irritate me on a consistent basis.
+
+[3:42] They don't they don't spend like like their their entire waking moment figuring out new ways to get me bent out of
+
+[3:49] shape. Joe's been working on it. Yeah? Yeah, he's been he's been doing some research. Do some research? Like, has he developed some sort of crazy, you know, food aversions or does he believe in some sort of nutritional BS hype that's just going to get me all spooled up and blasted out or no?
+
+[4:06] I'm shopping for shoes right now. Oh man, are they like, are they cool shoes anyway? Really cool. Wait till next week. I wanna have some new kicks. All right, cool. Well, if you really want to tick me off, like, you know, buy them, wear them once and return them. That's the, that's the, that's the stars jam right there. Although she, hey, I think she's grown out of it. Look, we all have the things that we do, you know, when we're growing up, it sometimes it takes some of us longer to grow out of those habits and other people. You know what I mean? That all. That's all I'm saying. Call in your questions, one, two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Follow up from one of our questions before we were talking, I think, a week or 2 ago on seasoning cast iron pads, a subject that comes up quite often, and I had mentioned that
+
+[4:48] I had read a blog by her name just went straight out of my brain. That's all right. Because you could go look it up on the last show. But, uh, she recommended using linseed oil, uh, a.k.a. flaxseed oil, uh, food grade version of it, of course, uh, because it's obviously, uh, from a
+
+[5:04] pager's perspective, the drying oil par excellence. So it's going to polymerize much faster and, you know, I guess at lower temperatures, although I'm not, I don't have the numbers in front of me. It's going to make a nice coating in your in your pan. Now, according to Dan, whatever it is, 76 LA, blah, blah, blah, I don't know whether it also has good carbon residue content, right? Which is not just adding to the polymerization, but is going to create the
+
+[5:27] non-stick stuff. I'm not going to get into that again. All I'm going to say is our good buddy, Michael Natkin, uh, from herbivoracious, uh, wrote a wrote in, uh, with his ¢2 saying that he has tested that with uh, with uh, flaxseed oil and he says that it's complete baller, awesome, super hard, awesome coating in his pants. So, you know, we trust him. So take his advice. I have not, I have not tested it. I want to start calling him. I wonder whether he'd be offended if I called him Captain Vegetable. Anyone remember that? It was a little known Sesame Street character called Captain Vegetable. You guys remember this guy? do not. Captain Vegetable. Like he's like, Sesame Street went through this phase where they're trying to get, I guess, kids to eat their vegetables, and so they had this vegetable guy. It's like, it is our Captain Vegetable, but he's like, it never became popular, like all the other, like, weird little Sesame Street craps, like the, like the 2 dudes with the clock, yip, yip, yip,
+
+[6:17] yip. those guys? Yeah I got those guys. I thought they turned cookie monster into like the veggie monster, though. Is that true? Oh, God. Someone find out whether this is the case and get back to me. That's like a that's a deal breaker right there. The veggie monster? That's the worst The veggie. You know what? Hell no. No. You know what I mean? God, no. Unacceptable. It's just not right. Uh, Don Rollins writes in. Hello at cooking issues. I'm going to start working in a bar that uses thin half moon ice. What can I do to keep the ice from overdiluting my drinks? All right, well, here's the deal. Uh, the half moon ice. I mean, it depends on the machine. I am assuming if you're using a commercial machine that, uh, well, here here's the issue. A couple issues. So ice and dilution is related to a number of factors. If you're shaking, The main problem from the half moon ice is going to be shards that are broken off in the in your shaker, and those shards that are broken off actually aren't going to over dilute your product right away, but when you strain them through your regular hawthorn strainer, which is the one with
+
+[7:27] the spring going around it. Those crystals make it through, and those things will melt quite quickly, and then they'll produce it in your glass, right? Because normally when you're shaking a drink, You don't serve it with with ice. So the dilution is fixed from the moment it's poured out of the shaker, except for these crystals that are going to melt out. And so the solution around that is to, um, is to just dump, um, is to just, you know, uh, put
+
+[7:51] it, when you're pouring it, pour it through a double, you know, a T strainer. And that's going to get rid of those crystals of ice. It will hurt somewhat the foamy head that you can get out of a shake and drink, but you know, there you have it. Also, uh, when you're stirring, right, when you're stirring a drink, uh, it doesn't really matter what kind of ice you're using except for things look nicer, don't look nicer. As long as you realize that the smaller the cubes and the faster you stir, the faster you're going to dilute. So all you have to do is adjust your uh, your times, your stirring times, uh, according to the type of ice that you're using. So you can do a stirred. I mean, if you use very, very fine ice when you're stirring, the chilling is so rapid that it's difficult to get a consistent stir out of
+
+[8:37] it. But with any normal size ice, it's possible to get a nice consistent stir. If it's probably wet ice, in which case you should probably make it a practice to, um, when you put, when you pack ice into something you're going to stir with, put a strainer top over and shake the excess water out of it, snap the excess water into the sink before you do your stir, this can
+
+[8:57] help, uh, alleviate some of the excess, uh, water of dilution you have on the outside, if that's a problem for your drinks. Or just assume that you're going to use the relatively similar amount of ice every time, and therefore the water load from the water on the outside of the ice is going to be the
+
+[9:10] same every time you do it. It's all about consistency. With a stir drink, it's all about consistency. So as long as you can make it repeatable, you can make it good. With the shake in drinks, I really feel that a large cube is going to produce a better
+
+[9:24] result. Actually, what you really want to do is a large cube with a small, a couple small cubes in there. And I think we've talked about it, so I'm not going to, you know, go into it again unless somebody writes it and says, please go into it again. But, you know, what you can do is usually in a bar or a restaurant, there is some freezer
+
+[9:40] space, and depending on how many shaken cocktails you make at night. It could be economical from a space standpoint, definitely from a resource
+
+[9:49] standpoint because it costs very little to freeze ice cubes if you have the time space. is to go get the ice cube molds, the 2 inch by 2 inch ice cube molds, get the ones from cocktail kingdom, which are made from, I believe they're made from a polyurethane, not from a
+
+[10:03] silicone, test that I have not verified myself, but that were done by Eben Freeman.
+
+[10:08] Uh, you know, uh, the famous bartender years ago where that certain silicone molds can impart a taste to the water, uh, that the ice cubes, uh,
+
+[10:17] that when you freeze ice cubes, it can impart a taste to them. I've never done this test myself, but this is what he says. And so that is a feasible way to generate cubes for shaking. However, when it comes to beautiful presentation ice, my friend, you are
+
+[10:29] SOL. Then you'll have to do some either like buy, I used to have it brought in, which is expensive, which is what we do, or start a freezing campaign with igloo coolers and
+
+[10:39] whatnot. We could talk more about that if someone's interesting. But if you're just interested in overdiluting. It's not going to be much of a problem. Just make sure that you strain your shaking drinks through a T strainer. Caller. Caller? Oh, reverb. Caller. You're on the air. Hey, Dave. My name's Nick. I'm calling from Seoul, Korea. Oh, hey, Nick, that's awesome. Uh, my questions about cold smoking bacon. I've been cold smoking bacon in this large old file cabinet with
+
+[11:07] a smoke daddy attached to the side of it. Smoke that degenerates and pump smoke into the cabinet chamber and hence cold smoke in the meat. I suppose. Uh, it's been working pretty good. Actually, I've been able to produce fairly good bacon with it. What concerns me though, is that even with cold smoking, the woods still combust. Right. Incinerated, sending all sorts of undesirable, nasty elements into the air and ultimately onto my bacon, I suppose.
+
+[11:33] So I was wondering if there's a way to prevent or drastically reduce that. Mm, yeah, here's the problem is, is that, uh, the smoke flavors that, you know, that we all love are due to the pyrolysis of the meat, which is taking place
+
+[11:51] at uh, elevated temperatures, right? And so, I mean, there are definitely, you know, if you go way over on temperature, then you
+
+[12:02] can you produce more of those nasty things, then you get more also more of those burnt acrid,
+
+[12:07] uh, you know, those burnt acrid kind of flavors that none of us like. So you definitely want to control temperature, but I mean, the unfortunate truth is, is that there are, you know, what are, you know, deemed to be carcinogenic and unhealthful components that are generated purely as a
+
+[12:25] result, while the same things that we like are being produced. Now, you can filter the smoke, right? Which, I guess how they do, when they're making liquid smoke, they can, um, they can, they, they recondense the smoke back to a
+
+[12:39] liquid, and then they can fractionate that into, uh, it's different parts.
+
+[12:44] And then um, then they can separate out some of the things that are carcinogenic. But the, um, it's, you know,
+
+[12:54] very, would be very difficult for you in the way you're doing it. However, you know, you, I don't know. I haven't done my, my research, uh, you know, recently, I probably, I probably
+
+[13:06] should as what the current feeling is of the actual level of risk or whether anyone's done, uh, risk, uh, you know, risk increased studies based on smoke in meat and
+
+[13:15] consumption. I don't know if those studies have been done yet because I haven't I haven't read them. My feeling is, is that in the near future, and by that, I
+
+[13:24] mean like the next 10 or 20 years, that, uh, you know, air quality is becoming a lot more important, not just food club,
+
+[13:31] but air quality in kitchens is becoming more important. And, uh, you know, the the research that came out, you know, several years ago on, um, the deleterious effects uh, of uh, wok oil smoke
+
+[13:44] in uh, in women in China, in particular, and uh, increased cancer rates because of it. I think like more of those kind of studies about kind of airborne things in your kitchen are going to become important. So, I mean, I would definitely invest in some good ventilation in any rate, but it's
+
+[14:01] going to be difficult to eliminate, I think all that stuff entirely. Does that make sense or no? Uh, it does. I've looked at vaporizes. I don't know if that's a step in the right direction or. Yeah, I mean, the problem is the vaporizers are not. I mean, the whole point of the vaporizer is the trying is they're distilling their, their, they're releasing things without the burning, right? So, I mean, right, they're built for they're built for liberating THC from marijuana to be blunt. Uh, but the, you know, I don't, I've, I, obviously, have I put woodchips in them before? I have one. Uh, but I, you know, but I haven't used it. It's in years, it's packed away in my in my storage closet. I get one out. I can get one out and test it. You want me to test it? I just don't think it's going to generate. I think it's going to generate the temperatures needed to make the smoke because, I mean, the whole point of the vaporizers, to have a controlled heat so that you're not getting that kind of combustion, and
+
+[14:57] the flavor, the actual flavor components that we're making in wood are due to a high temperature pyrolysis, you know,
+
+[15:07] reaction that is taking place, you know, not at like 400 F, but like at 400 C, you know, 400 Celsius, which is like, which
+
+[15:16] is a lot higher. Uh, I could try to dredge up at some point, uh, some literature on um, the difference in the relative things that are being, you know, released
+
+[15:26] from uh, from wood smoke at different temperatures. But the issue is I think that I think that they're inherently linked, that you're making the stuff that you don't want while you're making the stuff that you do want, that you get, you know, that they come kind of hand in hand. Um, but, and I don't know of any good way to uh, filter it, except I wonder whether you could draw the smoke through water and get rid of something. I don't know. I had to do some research. It might be, it might be possible, but I think you're not gonna, you're not going to be able to generate the flavor you want without generating the unwanted stuff that, you know, that you don't want.
+
+[15:58] That's my feeling. I could be wrong. I'd like to get some other input on it. have to do some more research. Alrighty. All right. Well, listen, uh, should be back on Twitter with anything you find, and if
+
+[16:09] I, if I can find anything interesting, I'll talk about it on the next show. All right, thanks. Thank you for calling in from South Korea. You want take our 1st break? We have another caller. Oh, we have another caller. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave, this is Nick from Denver. How's it going? Going all right. Denver doing? Good, good. Um, so I had a question about, um, it was uh, Nathan Mirvald's new book. It was modernish cuisine for home. Right? Um, and I was going to do his short ribs recipe and, um, he commented on, uh, using zip top bags for, uh, I
+
+[16:44] think, a long period of time with low temperature cooking. And he mentioned that for safety and reliability issues. He recommended only using, um, a vacuum sealed bag. And I was just wondering if you could comment on that, mostly for the safety issue. Well, why did he say it was unsafe? Do you remember? I don't have the book. Oh, so he he just mentioned that it was unsafe. And then he uh, on his uh, on his recipe page, and then he referenced another page in the book, but it didn't really go into any more detail on
+
+[17:14] what, on why it would be unsafe. What temperature are you cooking? Um, it was going to be 60 degrees Celsius for about 2 days. Yeah. So, it, it, it, it's an, it's an interesting point. I've heard other people say that there is some sort of a safety issue with it. Now, here's something I know for a fact. Uh, Gran Aikets, maybe 4 years ago, posted a video online using Ziploc bags, uh, and got an angry call from
+
+[17:43] SC Johnson Wax, a family company, and saying that they're
+
+[17:48] not, uh, they're not set up to be used for that, uh, X, Y, Z, X, Y,
+
+[17:53] Z, because they haven't tested it, right? And so I don't know where this, the safety issue on zippies came in uh, regards to cooking because they're rated for reheating. They're made from polyethylene, without plasticizers. So, and they're rated to be in constant contact with your food at normal ambient temperatures indefinitely.
+
+[18:19] Uh, and they're rated for reheating the food. I don't know of any any published data, saying that there is anything that's leeching in or out of polyethylene ziploc bags.
+
+[18:34] And by the way, if you smell a ziploc bag as opposed to smelling polyethylene film, polyethylene film, has to have the thin stuff like
+
+[18:42] Saran, oh, it's not Saran, but you know what I mean? The plastic wrap. They have solvents in them to help them get them into those thin sheets and roll them out quickly. And those have an odor almost always. Uh, whereas uh, zippies do not. So, you know, I always consider them relatively neutral. I don't really understand where the safety issue comes in so long as your temperatures are down like 60 and
+
+[19:06] 50 where, as far as I can tell, polyethylene is fine in those service ranges for continuous duty, right?
+
+[19:15] continuous duty. Now, uh, I could be wrong on this because I haven't looked up the studies right now, but this is my
+
+[19:23] feeling. Here's the issue on, uh, on polyethylene. Is it is polyethylene, unless you have one that has a special vapor barrier in it, like a multi-layer film technology in it,
+
+[19:37] polyethylene, not such a great vapor layer. That's why I use the, by the way, the ones that are rated for freezer because they're supposedly a better vapor barrier. But you can get oxygen migration through a ziploc bag because they're not as, depending on which one you use because they're not as, um, they're not as gas impermeable. So there could be perhaps a quality issue over time. Also, remember, there is residual oxygen inside of a Ziploc bag more so than in a vacuum. But you also have to remember that when I'm vacuuming down a lot of products, I mean, red meat's not so much, but
+
+[20:10] like on other things, I'm not sucking a hard vacuum anyway, because I think it's deleterious to the meat quality. So I don't really, like, there is an issue where, you know, someone could take a Ziploc bag and put the temperature too high and then you get melting, right?
+
+[20:25] At 60, I don't really see that that's a problem. Also, there could be an issue with residual oxygen in the bag, however, over a
+
+[20:32] 2 day cook period at 140 degrees, Fahrenheit, 60 Celsius, ain't nothing growing in that thing. Do you know what I mean? You know, perhaps it might be deleterious on, on its capability to be stored for a long period of time, but if you're not using it for extremely
+
+[20:48] lengthy, lengthy storage, right? I don't see that it's that big of a deal. You might get, uh, you know, perhaps slightly more oxidation in there than you would otherwise, but again, not a safety issue. So I don't, I don't really understand where this comes from. And I've heard other people talk about it unless it's like, and Nathan is not the kind of guy who, uh, so there are many
+
+[21:12] books, and I won't, I won't name them in particular, uh, and authors and people in
+
+[21:17] general, who, they're, when they write, they say things that are untrue, uh, and they know it's untrue. If you go and you call them on it, they say it because, well, it's too complicated to explain what's really going on to the average cook,
+
+[21:29] right? And I don't want them to make a mistake and do something that's dangerous. So I'll just tell them it's unsafe to do something, even though it's not true. And I've had this conversation with authors, with chefs and with teachers. And I think that's a, I think that's a crap way of working. You know what I mean? I think it's just, I think it's doing a complete disservice. Nathan's not that kind of a guy. So for all I know, he has a reference somewhere about it being unsafe, but I'd love to see it, because I consider low
+
+[21:57] temperature, and by that, I mean kind of 60, even up to 63 and below in a
+
+[22:02] zippy, to be fine practice, I only do it on short-term cooks, but I don't, and he, I know, is fine with it on short-term cooking in the range of several hours, but I don't know, I don't know what study he's referencing to say that it's going to be bad for longer periods.
+
+[22:16] It's a long-winded answer. I sorry, but it's kind of an important subject. Yeah. Then I feel like I didn't answer your question at all, but, no, that's pretty helpful. pretty helpful. All right, all right. Well, look, try to find it in, you know, tweet on in to the cooking issue. See if you can find his reference for that or where he references it
+
+[22:33] from because this is a discussion. I love to have, either with him or anyone else, on
+
+[22:39] it, because it's something that I'd like to get to the bottom of, because the Ziploc bag is a fantastic tool for all of those people who can afford a
+
+[22:46] circulator, especially at the lower price point now, who make your own, but don't have the several $1000 it takes to make a vacuum machine.
+
+[22:52] And zippies are still the best way to cook things like fish that you don't really want to vacuum or poultry that you don't really want to vacuum. Or if you don't have time to chill down your meat after your initial sear and you want to do zippies to cook a steak. I mean, zippy, you know, zippies are great. I love them. Even though the S.C. Johnson Wax family company does not want me to use them for this purpose. I find them incredibly useful. So I'd really like to know if I'm doing a bad thing. Sound good? All right. Sounds good. All right, thank you, brother. Thanks for calling in And let's go to our 1st commercial break.
+
+[23:32] Just want to take a moment here to thank Joel Gargano, for the cooking issues theme song at the top of the show and our friends, the meatballers, for this beautiful version of
+
+[23:42] fish is fish is vodka. You're listening to cooking issues on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[24:44] Catskilled provisions has Valentine's Day literally in the bag with their seal the deal gift bag. Start with chocolate honey truffles, and then move on to breakfast in bed with their traceable organic pancake mix and New York
+
+[25:01] State maple syrup. Sure to satisfy any ardent locobore. Check out the Catskill provisions, seal the deal package at www.catskillprovisions.com. What do you think of that? Seal the Deal Valentine's Day package. Seal the deal. You know, that is a that is an admirable name. Seal the deal. You know what I mean? And it's like even just buying it implies that you know you're going to seal the deal, right? So it's like, if you have any, if you're wondering, are you going to steal the
+
+[25:29] deal? you get to seal the deal package, you're like, deal is sealed. Right? I mean, that's it. Deal is sealed. You know, like, I will not name any names, but, uh, you know, again, I have a bar, and one of the functions of a bar, uh, is to take 2 people who are looking to
+
+[25:48] find uh, other people to do other things with, and to meet them to kind of grease the social wheels, as they say, and then let them go off,
+
+[25:56] right? This is one of the functions of a bar. And, uh, you know, I was playing some hardcore seal the deal music last night. I was busting out, you know, ignition. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I was doing, we did, we did about a 2 hour, um, kind of like, uh, like, dancing,
+
+[26:15] dancing kind of like rap anthem set, like, you know, California, love, and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, afterwards, I broke into like a couple, I went ignition and then a couple other songs like that. and then Barry White, at the end of the night, after we did the last call, into Marvin
+
+[26:31] Gaye, and I'm not going to, I'm not going to call you out. You know who you are. We're not sealing the deal. Why do I go to work? Why do I get up? Why do I eat breakfast and work and breathe air if I cannot help you seal the deal? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Man, Barry White and to Marvin Gays? Like, that's like level 5 seal the deal. I know it. And you know what? You know what the problem was? The individual who I'm talking to, Maybe you should have gotten the Catskill provisions sealed the people situation because then, as we say, here at cooking issues, it's pre-sealed. Right? You know what may not seal the deal? I love we've got we got an audition video in from Joel Gargano. I wish I wish I could play this. I mean, it's radio, obviously. We can't see the video, but we've got Joel just standing here with a guitar kind of looking at the camera and he's playing an acoustic version of the cooking issues theme song. So let's let's give that a quick run before we move on. Let's do it. 12nd here. What's Joel's group again? I don't think he has a name for it. Cooking history is intro. Go.
+
+[27:42] We're all social creators. Cook sad hearts.
+
+[27:50] We've got some questions. Gender, we start. James just see us. Jackie Joe, too. They're all here now. To listen, and I'll follow soon. What do you think, man? I think I think we've got like an American Idol show we can put together now. Definitely. And thank you for finally giving Joe some props. Yeah, Joe, in the song. You know why? You know, I fellow front man, fellow front man. Frontmen always give each other props. Am I right, Joe? It's hard work, man. It's hard work being the front man. Right. I mean, because you have to be you have to be on all the time. I mean, you do get you get all the benefits as well, but you always have to, you know, pretend that you're like, you know, all juiced up, right? Yeah, there's there's lots of, uh, you know, just pretending you're pretending that you're actually excited when you're not. Like, like, you're ready to rock, but you're actually really ready to go to bed. Look, I tell people this all the time, and it's the same with cooking, doing demos, like being here. It's like, you know, the average person, like they're there to see you perform. They don't care whether you've had a bad day. What does that, what does that matter to them? They don't they don't give a rat's behind whether or not, you know, you know,
+
+[28:58] your, you know, your puppy fell on your meat grinder. That's not important to them. What's important to them, they came to see a show. You agreed to provide a show. They came to see the show. So you got to get amped up. That's all there is. That's why, you know, even as much as I love, well, I'm not going to get into discussion of, you know,
+
+[29:14] Axel Rose and the old Guns N' Roses shows. I'm just not going to get into it. I'm just not going to get into it right now. But, uh, right? You're not the kind of like, Joe, you're not the kind of like hat over your head, stare at the floor kind of a front man, are you? No, no, not at all. Yeah good. I mean, there's a show. It a show. Yeah, there's a certain place for that. There's a certain kind of music where everyone's like, hey, let's let's all, you know, let's go see someone who doesn't care whether I'm alive or dead. Yeah, let's just be sad in a room. Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, and that was never me. Well, I mean, obviously that's not how I like to work, obviously. Anyway, okay. So what's the story? Joel's going to come in and and serenade... Joel's going to come in in March. Yeah, he's going to do the song live. We're going to record it here and he said he really wants to do some commercials like the tech serve one because he feels it may be a life-changing experience. So I'm not going to deny him that opportunity. Hey, hey, man, it's not it's not my money. Talk to the tech serf people. I'm for it. Right? Right? Damn. All right. So, howdy, everyone. Why would you choose one method of applying Activa RM over another? By the way, Activa RM is the brand name for a
+
+[30:21] Genomoto, the MSG people's meat glue, transgutamination, the enzyme, the miracle enzyme that's used to glue or weld bond meet together. And so it's transglutaminates, and by a Genomoto
+
+[30:37] as a company, Activa is the brand name for all their
+
+[30:40] transgutaminaces. And RM is the one that's most commonly used, and it's a mixture of enzyme, uh, caseine, which milk protein, and, um,
+
+[30:49] and uh, maltodextrin, okay? And you can either sprinkle it onto things, or you can make it into a paste and paint it on. Okay. which is a slurry. It's called the slurry technique, just so you guys know, in case you don't know. Uh, is a slurry better for some app, and you can buy it from modernispantry.com, even though they're not sponsored us anymore. Okay. Is a slurry better for some applications and a sprinkling better for others? Have you done any tests with commercial? Okay, that's one 1st question. Uh, look, Nils, who, uh, you know,
+
+[31:19] I, I got my 1st meat glue from Nils, uh, Norin and from Wiley, because they were the 21st people in New York to use it. And I think Wiley might use slurries sometimes, but Nils always hated the slurries because he didn't want to put a lot of liquid into the meats that he was
+
+[31:32] gluing. So he always did sprinkle. Uh, so sometimes a slurry is okay. But, you know, 99.9% of the actual gluing of meats together that I do, I
+
+[31:43] do with a sprinkle technique. You know, the pace thing is, you know, fast. I guess it's easy to dose out, but I just never a big proponent of it so much. Okay. And then second, have you done any tests with commercial grade beef cooked sous vide? I was reading up on beef grating recently. I never knew commercial grade beef is basically beef from older animals that are marble that are marble like prime
+
+[32:07] beef. Not technically, like, in other words, prime or choice, I think, any of those are commercial.
+
+[32:15] Couldn't a great deal of money be saved and deeper flavor realized by cooking commercial beef sous vide until tender. If so, where would a consumer find the lower grades of beef? Okay. There's a very interesting question. I have never actually run the test. I don't have any personal experience cooking older meats, but the way meat grating works is meat grating is bizarre because it's based solely
+
+[32:40] on the goal, the sole goal of beef grating is tenderness. That's it. They don't care flavor or anything like that, except for they also grade much higher for fat, right? So the way it works is if you look at the beef grating charts and um, you see that they're on the, there's an age range and then a fat marbling range and you have to be in certain things.
+
+[33:04] So older cuts of meat, older animals, uh, have in general, uh, tougher
+
+[33:09] meat, and, you know, 100% they will have tougher meat, the same animals meat will get tougher as it ages, right? And so at a certain point, after, I think, you know, 24 months or it's no longer really labeled as either prime or choice.
+
+[33:24] And but it can be extremely highly marbled, in which case it is sold as commercial, right? So standard is what's lower marble. I believe standard beef is lower marbled than choice, right? But young, right? Whereas commercial can be very highly marbled. In fact, I think it has to be more highly marbled in order. Otherwise it would be, you know, can or beef or whatnot. but is from an older animal. And it's going to be tougher and so people don't. I don't know a good source of getting it. I will say this. Jeffrey, both Jeffrey Steingarden and Harold McGee have taunted me, taunted
+
+[34:02] me by going to Spain and having going to a restaurant
+
+[34:06] whose specialty is old, old meat, like seven-year-old meat. And they said the flavor of it was fantastic. Now, as you point out, low temperature cooking might be a good way. to tenderize these cuts of meats that are older. Here are the caveats and what I think. In general, what I think you're going to want to do is get a well finished, highly marbled, older piece of meat and then dry agent. You know, these older cuts of meat. I think you're going to want to dry age them to increase the tenderness because my feeling is if you try to tenderize the meat just by doing low temperature
+
+[34:41] cooking that you might have a tendency over time. Because remember, when a meat gets older,
+
+[34:47] not, it's not just the collagen changing and the muscles changing. The enzyme components are changing, the you know, the darkness of it, the flavor of it. And so I have a feeling that the older the meat is, the more it might get a kind of livery or
+
+[35:02] gamey taste as it's cooked for long periods in a bag. So, I might say that a dry aging of it might be a better way to do it, get like a primal and then dry age it, and then do, you know, one of your normal low temperature
+
+[35:14] cooking because, you know, again, I find that low temperature cooking to tenderize tough meats that aren't tough because of collagen, but are tough because the muscle fibers themselves have toughened up, tends to produce mushy meat when it's cooked for a long time.
+
+[35:27] I really, no one ever gets into discussions with me about mushy versus tender, but I think it's something that really wants to
+
+[35:33] be talked about. Just a note, if you're going to buy muscle meat that's from animals over 30 months of age in the United States, uh, you need to make sure that uh, that all of the spinal material and any nerve material has been removed because that's, uh, you know, precautions that are taken for BSE, uh,
+
+[35:51] bovine, sponge of form encephalopathy. Okus Krochfeld, new variant, the deadly disease known as Mad Cow. Okay, um, that makes sense, guys? Or no. I don't care. They're like, now they're being like Nastasia, like, ah, they don't care. They don't care. Okay, uh, Anna from Budapest writes in. Dear Nastasia, Dave, and Jack. Joe, you got Shafter on this one again. I mean, Joey, yeah, I said Joe, right? I've been listening to your show for over a year now and in the meantime, I'm trying to listen to old episodes as well. I still have 14 left, so I'm hesitant whether my question has already been mentioned, but I'll give it a go. Hey, if you only have 14 episodes left, I mean, we've had like 100 episodes, 100 and change episodes, right? I mean, we can we can double up on a question, but I don't think you've answered this one yet. In October, we were lucky enough to get an invitation to an Uruguayan wedding, and during a 2 week, Buenos Aires, Uruguay trip, we had a great time. My fiance had been obsessed with Dulce de Leche. by the way, I love to call it Dolce de Lace and Dolce, sorry, Dolce de
+
+[36:46] Leche and piss off all my all my Spanish friends. But so I won't do that, though. Dulce de Leche. Before I got hooked as well while I was there. We had a chance to stay with locals who actually make their own Dulce de Leche from scratch, and they told us the recipe, but for some reason it does not work for us. We don't get the right consistency, and ours is runny instead of thick and creamy. I was wondering if you could tell me what we were doing wrong or if we were missing something or have a recipe that really works. Our recipe is 2 liters of milk, 2 liters of water, one kilo of sugar, one teaspoon of soda. We're told to heat the milk, the water, sugar together, once the liquid boils, we should put the soda in it and let it serve for 2 hours during once in a while. I use whole milk from the farmer's market. The 2nd time I even add some golden syrups, because I thought the sugar might help the consistency, but there's no difference. In fact, the one with the sugar syrup got runnier. We tried cooking for 4.5 hours and only 2 hours to see if it thickens, but it didn't. The liquid turns dark. I guess because of caramelization, but it doesn't get thick. Should we put butter in at some point? If yes, when, should we cover the pan with a lid? Should we stir it or let it simmer? What does the soda do, et cetera, et cetera. All right, look. I don't know what the water is in there for. I want, uh, you know, my typical way of making, uh, making the dulce de leche is to use the sweetened condensed milk, uh, and put it in a, uh, in a pressure cooker for between, at 15
+
+[38:03] PSI between 45 minutes and an hour. I know that's cheating. The 1st time I ever saw someone make the real stuff. And, of course, they called it Requipe, but, you know, was in Colombia up in the in the mountains over there in Colombia. They uh, this like little old lady, you made it by just pouring milk in a pan. I was like, oh, whoa, you can do that. Here's here's what's going on with it. Now, if you look at Indian sweets, they have boiled milk
+
+[38:26] salas, but they're not as brown as the Dulce de leche, because they're not adding that baking soda. Now, I've heard some people say the baking soda is not necessary. However, I think it is. What the baking soda is doing is it's not really caramelization that you're looking at. You're actually doing myard reactions to it with the high heat, right? And that's accelerated by adding the baking soda, which is alkaline. So the alkaline stuff is there to help the browning along as it
+
+[38:54] cooks. The thickening of the dulce de leche is strictly due to the concentration of milk solids. And as the milk solids get more concentrated in the presence of the alkaline baking soda, it's going to get browner and browner and thicker and thicker. To give you an idea, standard, a standard practice would be to take, I
+
+[39:13] don't, I think your main problem, you need, you need the lid off, by the way, because you need to evaporate water. I think your main problem right there is the water. I don't know why the water is in the recipe at all. I mean, typical thing would be to take for every liter of milk to take with add sugar, baking soda, take it down to about 250
+
+[39:33] mils. And I think that's going to be your main problem. Do it on a volume basis, not on a time basis. What's up, Jack? Oh. You saw me get animated, huh? I didn't need to say anything. I have a question for cooking issues, actually. All right. So we spoke with Harold McGee on Friday. this series of recordings and he was one of our featured guys kind of telling his life story, which, by the way, really interesting. He's got Indian heritage. I didn't know that. But he sort of spoke about avant-garde cuisine and modern cuisine as
+
+[40:07] 2 separate things. I was wondering how you see those as different. Well, Harold, you know, Harold and I have been having this discussion for a long time before, uh, you know, uh, Mirvold and Chris and, you know,
+
+[40:23] Maxine and that whole crew proposed modernist cuisine as a title of their book. And, you know, the title of that book was proposed specifically because, um, specifically because, you know, no one wanted to use the term molecular gastronomy because everyone hates it.
+
+[40:40] You know, everyone who does that kind of work hates it. pretty much in the US. And so prior to that, you know, uh, you know, McGee and I, a lot of times, you know, he would say avant-garde or kind of cutting edge or new or
+
+[40:54] or whatnot, but, you know, avant-garde is always, you know, it was good because it always just means new and it doesn't imply technology.
+
+[41:01] I mean, the important thing is that, you know, a lot of what's going on isn't technology related. Do you know what I mean? A lot of what's going on in terms of new creativity in food isn't necessarily technology. You know, Daniel Patterson doesn't use a whole crapload of technology necessarily or even hydrocolloids anymore, but you would definitely consider his cooking to be part of the avant-garde cooking. Do you know what I mean?
+
+[41:25] So I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with the focus. I think modernist was, you know, uh, you know, that cruise stab at a word that they thought they could get to stick
+
+[41:37] that that they, you know, my feeling is like every word that describes this is loaded. Avant-garde is loaded term. Modernist is a loaded term. You know what I mean? So they're all they're all loaded. And I prefer any of them to molecular. Fair enough, yeah. I definitely struck that term from my vocabulary. Yeah, you know what? It's like, yeah, we get it. You know, molecular is easy for people to wrap their head around and, you know, some people made some, you know,
+
+[42:05] were able to write a bunch of articles and some chefs got some extra customers because of it, but it's just
+
+[42:10] weak term. of like mixology, right? Mixology, I always hated mixology. Turns out that has a longer history and so I'm getting less and less. I mean, I can count on 0 fingers the number of times I've referred to myself as a mixologist, but I don't get as angry about the word.
+
+[42:27] That's one of those words that I don't use, but I let it just flow over my head
+
+[42:31] like water. You know what I mean? Kind of like food scientist? Yeah, that would, another one, like, it's like, you know, it would be nice if I was actually a scientist, but I'm not, you know, I'm kind of a cook.
+
+[42:43] So, uh, but I can read science. I'm not afraid of science. Science doesn't intimidate me, but just not being intimidated by science doesn't make you a scientist. You know what I mean? fair point. Yeah. We've got time for like one more. Oh man. How many shows do I have before Valentine's Day? Uh, one next week would be be two. Two more. All right, listen. So Ben from San Francisco, I'm going to get your question next week on Valentine's because I'm not going to suggest anything
+
+[43:12] it takes more than a week for you to do, right? Uh, so he had a question he wants to do like a blowout meal for uh, Valentine's Day. And I have a lot of suggestions as someone who's cooked many Valentine's meal for my wife. Because, you know, we've been together over 20 years. I haven't been married over 20 years. We've been together over 20 years. So I know a lot about cooking for Valentine's at different stages in your life. got a Valentine's Day idea. Yeah. Seal the deal. Cat skilled provisions. Boom. Boom. Okay, so we'll handle that one next week. Um, and man, we can tell these questions. I want to devote more time to them. Timothy wrote in about some calcium. I'll do this quick. I'll do this quick. Timothy, I hope this is still the place to email questions. It is. Otherwise, I wouldn't have it. I bought some calcium citrate after reading a New York Times article in the magazine about pre-sliced apples and was curious if you or Dave had any experience with it or any recommendations for uses beyond the obvious prevention of fruit surface oxidation.
+
+[44:10] And secondly, they've spoken on air a few times about the effects of increased acidity and sourdough. Slackness, slightly translucent, glossy, chromic, et cetera, and was curious if I can balance that acidity by adding some calcium
+
+[44:21] carbonate, would this totally poison the bacteria and yeast living in my dough, or would I get a product with some sourdough flavor and a texture more like bread made with regular
+
+[44:29] yeast. All right, I'm going to knock these out bing bang. Um, the, the, the article referenced in the New York Times magazine was about companies that slice up apples and then dip them in something called nature seal, uh, that causes the sliced apples to both not turn brown and not turn mushy, uh, while they sit in your
+
+[44:47] grocery, uh, case, you know, for, I don't know, like a 1000000000.5 years. But actually, the calcium is there. The 2 main ingredients in nature seal are an antioxidant, and it's the antioxidant in it that is preventing the surface oxidation by preventing polyphenol oxidase, which is an enzyme from breaking things, from breaking down, you know, chemicals in
+
+[45:12] the or agglomerating them, I guess, in the Apple and making it turn brown, right? So that's an antioxidant. The 2nd main active component in the, I think it's called nature seal or fresh seal or something like that, is the
+
+[45:24] calcium, calcium, citrate. And calcium citrate is a calcium that doesn't have a nasty kind of flavor. It's mildly soluble, but the calcium is primarily there to uh, actually
+
+[45:37] to uh, help stiffen cross-link the pectin. So the calcium is there as a pectin strengthener. So what's going on, they soak it and the surface of the apple gets strong so that it doesn't get mushy even though it's been cut. So it's not there to prevent oxidation. The calcium is there. In that case, to prevent things from getting mushy. And you can use calcium treatment, and it's better if you also use it with some pectin methylestrase, enzyme,
+
+[46:02] a.k.a. Novo shape. again, I don't know if anyone carries it yet, to harden the outside of things that you want to stay crisp on the outside, even if they're
+
+[46:09] cooked, and so you can look at things like Mugaritz's ossified
+
+[46:13] vegetables, or, you know, you could add a pinch of calcium to boiling water along with baking soda to counteract the 2
+
+[46:20] effects, so you can get bright green, like really cooked through vegetables that aren't total mush bags.
+
+[46:26] Anyway, your 2nd hit, can you add calcium carbonated dough? Calcium carbonate is added to dough as a pH, as a dough improver, and it will affect pH, because calcium carbonate will react with acid, whether it's lactic or acetic to form either, you know, acetate or
+
+[46:44] a lactate, and reduce the acidity. It won't poison it. However, the whole the whole point of the sourdough is that the, it depends on when you're going to add it. sourdough starter, you don't want the pH to be too low for it to be too acidic just because it's
+
+[47:00] going to, it's going to exhaust your, uh, your bacteria and your yeast. They won't be growing well and they won't be a healthy culture. So you want to maintain the pH at the proper level, not just for the flavor of it, but for the health of the actual starter itself. That said, yes, calcium carbonate can be used for, you know, moderate adjustments
+
+[47:18] in dope pH. All right, now on the way out because they have 13 seconds. Eddie Shepherd writes in from the UK. And I'm gonna let everyone ponder and see what they think on it. Quick question, because I was musing on this myself today. It's not a tech question, but I hope it's okay. Of course it is. So I myself, this is Eddie writing, did a philosophy degree before I became a chef, and I know Dave studied philosophy, as did Wiley. I think also maybe Chang, too. Then this week I just met 2 other chefs that share this background, which I had previously thought was a pretty obscure route to have taken to end up as a chef.
+
+[47:47] So I wondered what, if anything, you thought it might be that connects these 2 disciplines or why you think they both seem to appeal to some of us. Of course, there may be no connection and it's just coincidence a few of us share a philosophy background, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, all the
+
+[48:00] best, Eddie Shepard. Eddie, this is an interesting point. What's with the philosophy majors in the cooking? I don't know. I want everyone to think about that if you care. Maybe tweet in some stuff. Email us for next week and we'll have a discussion when Nostasia's back on cooking issues.
+
+[48:22] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Brooklyn Kitchen, a mom and pop operation since 2006. They provide the tools that shape our food culture. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklynkitchen.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:17] Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:51] Showing your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming up to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to roughly one in the back of Roberta's
+
+[1:11] Pisoia in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Here again today with Nastasia, Hammer Lopez, welcome back. Thank you. And as usual, Jack and Joe over in the engineering room. Howdy. By the way, Nastasia, someone, I said on the tweet out for today's program that you were going to be back.
+
+[1:30] And I said, you know, the hammer's going to be back and someone's like, is that your nickname? I'm like, no, that's Nastasia's nickname. And he's like, well, what's her Twitter handle? And I was like, oh, oh. Ew, no, no, no, no, no Twitter handle. I like, uh, you know, well, Nastasia only believes in antisocial media. So I told him that Nastasia refuses to have a Twitter handle until they invent
+
+[1:56] antisocial media and then someone else chimed in. it already is freaking antisocial media. I was like, hey, hey, point taken. Point taken. So yeah, so apparently like people are so mean and rough on Twitter, you might actually enjoy it. Like if you had a Twitter handle that had nothing to do with work, so you didn't have to be nice if you could just sit there and be incredibly vicious to people, but people didn't
+
+[2:14] know maybe who you were. You would love that. You can do that. time investment for Nastasia, right? Look, it doesn't the nostalgia will invest any amount of time to be vicious that is needed to
+
+[2:25] be invested. She's always typing on the computer anyway. Why not have it be like when I have it be towards Twitter? Oh, Nastasia, you know what Joe did last week while you're gone? He shopped for shoes during the show. Thanks for holding the torch, too. Yeah, no one actually knows what nostasia is doing on that computer. It's vicious. It's crazy. She's nuts. Anyway, welcome back. Yeah, how you doing? What would your, like, I'm sure the hammer's already taken, so you couldn't even have that Twitter handle if you wanted. I don't think it'd have to be like a secret name, so I can call out people. Like me. Like, you wouldn't tell me. You would write in and be like, this guy doesn't know anything. He's an idiot. He's a moron. Right? Yeah pretty much. Okay, uh, call it questions two. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. We have one more show before the Valentine's Day, correct? don't know. Uh, yeah. Are you big on Valentine's Day? You know I am. You know I love the. I mean, I don't really look, and now, look, I have 2 kids, an 11 year old, and an 8 year old. So I'm more worried about their Valentine's Day at this point, which, you know,
+
+[3:28] at that age for me. Val, growing up, Valentine's Day. Get the all ready, Jack. I don't know, I won. Like, all of, like, get ready to play DJ Khaled. All I do is win because I freaking won. But the point of the matter is, like, in order to become, like, the all time champion, like, my wife is awesome. Super psyched. You know what I mean? And we started going out on Valentine's Day. So Valentine's Day, almost 21 years ago, this Valentine's Day,
+
+[3:54] my wife and I, our relationship can go to the bar and have a drink because we've been going out. We will have been together 21 years at that point. But, um, but yeah, I mean, Valentine's Day always sucked for me. I always hated it growing up. I'm sure my kids will be the same way. Actually, Dax. I bet Dax will have good Valentine's Day. It doesn't really matter until like, what? I don't know, 14, 13? No, you know what, dude? You're in the thing. I mean, even before then, even like 11, you know, 11, 12. You have to buy the carnations. Is this just in the east coast, or do we all, is everyone in the world have this? Where, like, you buy carnations and you write stuff on it and the money goes to the school, like, to the school body, and they go around on Valentine's Day and they hand out the carnations? Might just be. It's just East Coast? Jack, you did that stuff? I never did that. Joe? No, none? Anyway. horrible. horrible. And I always, they always, if you'd never, if no one bought you one. If your friends didn't buy you one, and you would buy different colors, like, red was, I love you. And green was, I don't know. I don't know what the hell green was. Anyway, it's like, because who the hell, they're fake, these carnations. They just dipped the, they dipped the stems in coloring and it colors up the carnation. ridiculous And you know, it's these crappy carnations that give carnations, which, by the way, are a fine flower. It took, it took me about 12 years or 13 years to convince my wife that the carnation was a legitimately good flower because she's like, they suck because she's only used to
+
+[5:16] shitty cars. ooh, crappy carnations. crappy carnations. Sorry, folks. Anyway, we've got a call. Wow. All right, anyway, I got the secret admirer one, which means no one bought me one. Now you can play the off. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Johnny Cart from Memphis. Hey, how you doing? Doing all right. I'm doing good. I got picked up some stainless steel tubing yesterday. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, about 4.5 feet of it and had it cut into one inch sections and um, leveled it off and
+
+[5:50] everything, and I was trying to figure out the best way to keep the, I was making like a savory
+
+[5:56] cheesecake, and I wanted to cook it in the circulator. Right. And I was trying to figure out the best way to keep it in there because it started pouring
+
+[6:04] out. And you know, when the vacuum was pulling, it's pouring out. Yeah, it'll pour out. So you're bagging how many tubes per? Uh, one, two, per, uh, large bug. All right, here's here's the awesome thing. Did you let the vacuum cycle complete? Uh, no, I didn't. It seemed like it was going to come up on the bag. Yeah, yeah, here's here's no. Yeah, here's this is awesome. Now, there, I mean, oh, the one problem, of course, is that cheesecake has some air in it, but assuming you have a fully dense product, let the vacuum cycle complete.
+
+[6:40] Here's what happens. When you vacuum something, uh, with a tube like that. First of all, you got to make sure that you have enough liquid to fully fill the tube. Because if you don't, the bag will go in and puncture itself on the tube.
+
+[6:52] But if you have enough liquid to fill the tube. All of the liquid will be smashed back into, it's a miracle. Well, how liquidy is the, is it semi-solid or what? Well, it it's cheesecake, but it's uh, made with uh, like 80, 75% mascarpone. Uh, and it's pretty much like a mascarpone consistency. Right. Right. So here's what's awesome. Like, uh, like when you suck a vacuum on a straight liquid. I've never tried it with something that's a paste consistency. Everything's going to boil out of your container. And then as soon as the vacuum comes back in, the force of the vacuum will smash it back into the
+
+[7:32] tube. Okay. So it'll, it'll do that with a dense, uh, liquid as well, like, uh, the cheesecake you paint? As long as it can move. I mean, you might not get 100% back, but you'll definitely get like 95. I mean, I used to, that used to be one of my favorite things to do, uh, because we would vacuum. I would vacuum pack, um, liquids in, in, in, bottles, you know, like doing that. I would like, I would pour all the liquid into the bag and then like have the cap on very loose and then put it all in a bag and then suck a vacuum and then the vacuum would shoot all of the liquid inside the bottle.
+
+[8:06] Uh, you know, that's my, I used to do that. That's fun. I mean, your point is well taken on something that's thick. I mean, it eventually will work the way back in there because otherwise there's going to be a lot of excess force on it because there's going to be, now the question is, is, will the product get forced back into the tube prior to the bag feeling enough force on
+
+[8:26] the in the in the cavity on the inside of the tube prior to that shattering, right? I mean, that's the real question. But another thing you could do is, I mean, do you need the vacuum to get the air out? Were you having problems with air in it without the vacuum? I was trying, no, I, I, it does find in a conventional oven, but I was trying to, uh, I wanted to try the sous
+
+[8:49] vide cheesecake because I wanted, I wanted, uh, the consistency to be like, you know, uh, no air whatsoever, no pocket, no nothing like that. Sure. Well, then, yeah, okay. So if you're looking to make it much denser, then definitely vacuums the way to
+
+[9:08] go and just do it and see whether or not it all gets forced back into the tube. I think you have a very good shot of it all being forced back into the tube. You might have to clip the 2 ends because they're going to be a little concave or
+
+[9:20] convex depending on whether you're slightly overstuffed or slightly understuffed tube. But I would definitely go that way. If you're not worried about the density issue, if you're just using it as a temperature control issue, then I would, you know, if you had access to a CVAP, obviously I would just cook it in a CVAP or a combi
+
+[9:35] oven, but if not, I would try wrapping the tube after it's stuffed with saran, with plastic wrap,
+
+[9:41] doing a, you know, a couple of layers of it. And that should be watertight enough for you to poach in it that way. But if you're looking to actually remove all the air and densify it, I would say that vacuum is the way to go. And it'll all get shoved back in. In fact, Excuse me. In fact, the reason that it's puffing out is not just because the
+
+[9:59] water the water and liquids inside are turning into a vapor, although that's causing it. But any air pockets that you're having in there need to push open and push the product out of the way to get out of the tube.
+
+[10:09] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so you think I should put in like a Florence hotel pan and
+
+[10:15] and run it through a couple of cycles? Oh, you can do that. And that'll get rid of a lot of the air too, but I have a strong feeling. I would say I'm more than 50% positive that if you just stick the tubes with the mixture in the
+
+[10:28] back bag and and make sure it's packed in good and you suck a full vacuum on
+
+[10:32] it, that it will all boil out, but it'll go back into the tube. I give you, man, maybe I'll give you 50% odds on that working for you. And if not, I would just put the mixture in the hotel pan, like you say, blast it a couple times in the vacuum to get the air out, then do a dense pack into the tube, and then wrap her in plastic and do it in
+
+[10:49] the either low temper, do it in the, um, uh, you could do it in an oven if you're having good luck in an oven. So even though it's open at both ends. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. As long as there's as long as there's enough, I mean, try. I mean, like the issue is, is, is it, is it going to move fast enough to get back into the tube? That's the real, real question. But I mean, you can try it with water. You'll see. If you if you put just enough water to exactly fill that tube and just throw it into the bag with the tube and vacuum it, all of the water will end up in the tube, all of
+
+[11:22] it. But it's, you know, but it's a question when it's so thick, whether or not it's going to move well enough, but I, like I say, that's why I'm giving you like 50, not giving you 100% odds. I giving you like 50. All right, understand. And what do you suggest, uh, but the ones 79 on Fahrenheit like that? Oh, Cheesecakes? I don't know. I usually do things like that. I can't do the Fahrenheit conversions. I usually do them up in like the, I usually do them in like the low 80s somewhere in there, like the low 80s in Celsius, probably. Okay. somewhere around. I can work with that. Yeah. I mean, usually, I think. I have to go back and look at my numbers. been a long time. But anyway, tell us how it works. Sure to say a Twitter or whatnot and tell me how it works. All right, thanks, Dave. Have a good day. You too. By the way, on Twitter, you know what? If you ever want to insult Nastasia, she sees all of my emails, but not my Twitter. Just saying. That's true. Just kidding. Patrick Martin's also not on Twitter. I think you guys are the only two. He's not on Twitter? No. or Facebook or anything. Wow. He's, you know, I don't know. too exclusive. Wow, wow, all righty. Okay, Will Freeman writes in at Rebel Cat. At Heritage Radio and Dave Arnold, could you please discuss sparkling water served with espresso, theory and
+
+[12:40] practice? Word to Nastasia, Jack, and the crew. Again, that's a, and the rest reference from the 1st Gilligan's Island. Remember that? anyway, I won't go into it again. So, uh, carbonated water with cell serve. I enjoy it. You don't, I mean, sorry, carbonator water with espresso. I enjoy it. don't drink espresso, right, sis? Any of you guys over there, espresso? I'm into it. Yeah, you like the carbonated? I actually have never had the carbonated, but I like espresso. Okay, so when you get when you order an espresso in a lot of nicer joints, they will give you a water back, right? A glass of water with it. And then a lot of the places that I like, like in San Francisco, for instance, like
+
+[13:16] blue bottle and other places, they'll give you a carbonated water back. And it seems kind of strange. At 1st you wouldn't think that carbonated water would necessarily go well with coffee. I mean, there's very few carbonated coffee drinks. Manhattan, special soda being the one obvious, you know, that's the only really carbonated coffee thing I can think of. So it's not necessarily, and by the way, Manhattan doesn't refer to our Manhattan nostalgia or 1st Manhattan Avenue here in Brooklyn. So it's like, you know, it's actually a Brooklyn product, so you can't drink it. Yeah, I mean, we saw the factory. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So, I don't know. I mean, like, I, I, I like it, and I, put it this way, what is it there for? Espresso is gone in like 13 seconds, especially like a modern American espresso. You're drinking it in like 13 seconds because of the incredibly short shots that they're pulling these
+
+[14:03] days. It used to be that a double was, you know, like an ounce
+
+[14:07] and 3 quarters or so or an ounce and a half . Now like a double is, you know, almost not even coding the bottom of your cup at
+
+[14:14] somebody's places. I think it's gone a little far in that respect in some ways, but you have a strong tasting thing and you need something to clear your mouth out at the end. So in general, what I do is I drink the espresso,
+
+[14:28] and then I pound the water and regular water doesn't clean your mouth out or make you feel refreshed the way sparkling water
+
+[14:36] does. I mean, straight up, right? So I don't think, I don't know if there's any theory other than, I'm sure the people who started doing it, we're offering a sparkling mineral water as a thing, and that just happened to be the water of
+
+[14:47] their, of their, of their preference. But I didn't find anything on the kind of history of it. All I'm saying is I enjoy it. I'm assuming that you enjoy it as well at Rebel Cat. Anyway, Ben writes it. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hello. Hi, hi, I'm Stephen Benson. I a big fan of your show. Thank you. I had a quick question about juicers. Okay, good. What question? I need a juicer that can also juice greens effectively and extract as much
+
+[15:18] possible out of the Greek. And I was looking for one in a reasonable price range. Uh, and if, if that's, if that's not possible, then uh, is there any way to modify a cheaper juicer to be able to do that? When you say greens, you mean like kale? Yes. Okay. Uh, all right. Okay, good. So what do you have now? Oh, I don't have one yet. I'm in the market. Okay. So the, now there's all sorts of juicers that I myself don't, uh, don't own and haven't even, uh, test it. My main experience with juice style juicers are with the smaller, the smaller,
+
+[15:57] like weird baskets, centrifugal guys, and I've never had much luck with them. I don't really, never been so happy with them. The majority of my experience is with a champion juicer. Champion juicer is a masticating juicer. And so, you know, it's what it does is it's got a long nose, and it's got little teeth on that long nose, and you shove stuff down and it just grinds it up with the, and then the
+
+[16:20] juice uh, spits out of the bottom through a mesh screen, and then the chaff comes out the front, right? And the champion can juice just about anything. With the exception, it can't do sugar cane. I don't think it's very good at wheat grass, right? But it does apples. it'll do kale. do all those things, ginger, anything. Carrots, loves carrots. loves to do carrots. Now, the one gripe people have with the champ, and the champion is relatively reasonably priced, right? It's like, I think we pay, what, like 204 or something like that. And it's uh, and it's a monster workhorse, right? You can beat that heck out of it all day long and nothing, it's not going to die. I have, I think I said on this show, if not, I've said elsewhere that I had, I had one once that I ran so long and so hard juicing apples that the surface of the case was boiling water and the, uh, and I actually,
+
+[17:18] I actually melted the electronics on the inside of it, the safety circuit, but it's still juiced. I mean, that's kind of how sturdy these suckers are. But the one gripe that people have about the champion is that it can heat up your products,
+
+[17:32] okay? And so with greens and certain other things, that can be a problem. By the way, when you're juicing something, if you juice something that has a tendency to turn brown after it's been cut up, what you want to do is put ascorbic acid, vitamin C, actually into the pan that you're juicing into, and that's
+
+[17:49] gonna, uh, that's gonna really, um, retard the browning that happens, for instance, apples or anything else. But ko stuff is no problem. But if you need something that's more gentle, right, and for things like greens, you can get, there's a juicer called the green star juicer that's, it runs with 2
+
+[18:07] gears, and the 2 gears crush the product that it's going through, and that produces the juice, and that juice is at a much lower temperature. And so people like it. It's a little more expensive than a champion. I don't have any personal experience with it, but Sam Mason, you know, when he was opening Taylor, had a champion and a
+
+[18:23] juice green star, and he said he really liked the green star, but he said the yield was a lot lower. So I don't know how important the yield is, because that's another thing to look at whenever you're looking at a juicer, how much you're leaving behind. Okay, I'm a chemist. The yield is actually pretty important to me. Right, okay. Um, and I was also, I was also curious, since I'm going to be making savory juices sometimes as
+
+[18:43] well. Instead of using a score, but can I use some type of vinegar or citric acid or something like that instead to make sure
+
+[18:47] the running doesn't occur? Okay, well, it depends. So, if you're, like, there's 2 ways to retard browning, right? So you're a chemist, so like, but we'll, for everyone, we'll, one, you lower, the browning is caused
+
+[19:01] by an enzymes that are present in the juice, right? I believe they're polyphenol oxidases that are agglomerating things together into things that turn brown, that look brown, and that anyway, that make things take oxidized. So and other oxidation reactions are happening. In fact, I think the browning is only the only one of the things that's going on for the oxidation reaction. So, but they're mainly enzymatically caused, which means you can retard a lot of that
+
+[19:26] browning by simply lowering the pH to the point where those enzymes are no longer active, right? That's one mode, or two, add something that is actively an
+
+[19:36] antioxidant, like a scorbic acid. Right? So the other acids are only going to act insofar as they're going to lower the
+
+[19:43] pH, whereas they're not as effective as actual antioxidants as you would have in something like ascorbic acid. Now if you didn't want the ascorbic acid taste, right? Although scorbic acid is very light on taste, you could move to something like sodium
+
+[19:57] metabisulfite, or something like that is an antioxidant, and a lot of people use that, but the problem is, is that if you overdose on one of the sulfite things, you start to taste that vaguely sulfurous
+
+[20:10] note, but you won't taste it in smaller quantities. Okay. All right, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Man, thank you. Let us know how goes. All right, I will. All right. Wait, stop, should we go to our 1st commercial break? We're going to our 1st commercial break. Cooking issues. We'll be right back.
+
+[21:52] A true mom and pop operation since 2006, the Brooklyn kitchen provides the tools that shape our food culture. They stock a curated variety of pots, pans, knives, small appliances, and other kitchen essentials. Their grocery department works closely with local farms and food artisans to bring you the tastiest fresh produce, dairy, and pantry items. Their teaching kitchens allowed them to offer a wide breath of cooking classes, from knife skills to pick butchering, from cooking for couples to pickling and
+
+[22:23] canning, from home brewing to pie making. Something new is always happening at the Brooklyn Kitchen. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklyn kitchen.com. You guys put some scary music to that. Yeah, right? I feel like I'm going to get butchered. That's the point It's not a scary place. Yeah, I was asking Nastasia before the show if she ever been in Brooklyn Kitchen, but then I forgot she's never really been to Brooklyn outside of Roberta, so... Oh, yeah, no, she makes a beeline directly for the subway when she gets out of here, like slapping the hipsters off her like mosquitoes that she's running. Tell the joke. Which one? Your joke. It's your joke. You tell it. You'll save better. No, it's nostalgia. How much does a hipster weigh? How much? An Instagram. Wow. Yeah, thank goodness she's measuring ingredients. There we go. All right. At Class writes in, at cooking issues, what starch have you found to be the least cloudy when using as a thickener for hot
+
+[23:26] sauces? Or do you have any nonstarch ideas? Okay, well, that's an interesting question. And you want something that's hot soluble? So, you know, heat it up and to coat the back of a spoon with thick coat the back of the spoon, as they say, a
+
+[23:39] nepel, as they say, in the trade, or maybe a little bit thicker. So, if you're interested in starch clarity in the theory behind starch clarity, you can look up a 1989 article called
+
+[23:47] Starch Paste Clarity by SAS Craig. It's available on the internet, and you can look it up. But in general, if you're looking for a regular starch, you know, not a modified, if you want a modified,
+
+[24:00] not even a modified, but a very highly tuned starch, you can go to National Starch
+
+[24:04] Corporation, and they have any number of starches that are already that are made specifically for things like
+
+[24:10] clarity. In fact, they have gel, they have starches. They have the word clarity and purity in their name that are intended to be very highly clear. But if you're looking to get kind of a more normal, just like a grocery store situation with starch, uh, the
+
+[24:24] way the reason starch is, um, our, when starch becomes clear, typically means that the starch is swelling
+
+[24:30] rapidly, and the starch granules break rapidly, and the starch goes completely into solution rapidly, and that makes for maximum clarity, right? So the starches that have that are ones like potato starch or uh tapioca
+
+[24:46] starch, root-based uh uh, and tuber-based starches. These starches tend to swell extremely rapidly. The granules rupture rapidly, at which point it becomes very clear. So, you know, those are going to have higher clarity, things like potato starch. Also, starch that's higher, like other types of starch, like waxy cornstarch, not cornstarch, waxy cornstarch, which is high in a millopectin, tends to be more clear because
+
+[25:10] millipectin tends to be more clear and it's easier to paste out and also red grades less.
+
+[25:17] Now, any starch you have is going to have the issue that when it cools down, it's going to thicken significantly. I think less so probably for potato starch, but I didn't have a chance to look it up. If you want to move just to a hydrocoloid for thickening with clarity,
+
+[25:30] then, obviously, you can add a little bit of xanthan at the end of your cooking procedure and it will stay, it will add its thickening
+
+[25:37] capability, whether it's hot or it's cold. The problem with Xanthan is if you add too much Xanthan, your product's
+
+[25:43] going to get snotty. It looks really like snot and very jiggly. So you want to add low percentages. You never want to add really more than about to a sauce more than about a quarter of a percent up to about a 3rd of a
+
+[25:54] percent. If you go over that, you're going to start noticing some Xanthan characteristics to it. You can go up to half a percent sometimes, but I wouldn't. You know what I mean? And, you know, we hate the Xanthani look at things, right? That jiggly, that jiggly look. In a sauce, it's going to be eaten as a lot of sauce. In certain applications, it's okay to have that texture because you're not having a large quantity of
+
+[26:15] it there where you can see the motion on the surface. It's mainly the motion on the surface. I mean, there's some snotty texture to the actual mouthfield, but mostly it's the way it looks that is so horrible, right? Yeah. But you might want to move to something like, not a regular locust being gum, but a, you know, a purified locust bean gum. They're hot soluble, they need to be heated up, but they can be very good, clear locust bean
+
+[26:40] gum. And you can buy that from, I'm sure modern's pantry carries it or if not, you know, CP Kelco makes some, a bunch of people make clear locust bean gums, but they're highly refined. They're good thickness. Also, purified guar is very clear. And so you can get a good purified guar gum. Guar is cold or hot, so you can add it and then, you know, use it as you go. And maybe those will be useful for it. You got to make sure that you don't get just regular cruddy guire, because regular cruddy guire
+
+[27:08] taste bad, and regular coretti guire also is not clear because it hasn't been purified to have only the
+
+[27:15] hydrocoloid, the active polysaccharides in it. I believe, what are they, glucomanons, whatever. can't remember. But anyway, so you get a hold of those. Of course, we all know the price of guar has gone up due to fracking. Thanks fracking. Thanks a lot. Thanks, you know. I heard there's an environmental problem with it, too. I haven't heard that. Anyway, then again, I only listen to cooking issues. Yeah, exactly. There you go. So anyway, so take a look at that. Hopefully that will work out for you. Yeah? Okay. We have a question in from Zoe at 69 Cobrook Row, our friend Tony
+
+[27:49] Cannelliaro's place, and the drink factory, and they hope we're doing well, are we? Yeah. Yeah? Good. We're looking to do some work with calcium oxide. And I'm wondering if you had any advice. Also, this may sound a bit strange, but knowing it can be quite an aggressive chemical. Is there a food safe version of it, or is it a case of just being careful? As always, any information is greatly appreciated. Okay. Calcium oxide. I have not heard, so calcium oxide is CAO, right? Quicklime. Uh, and the main use of calcium oxide that I know of in food is actually to make
+
+[28:26] self heating cans because you add anytime uh, calcium oxide is added to water. going to have a very, very strong reaction where it absorbs the water and turns into calcium hydroxide. And that reaction liberates a boatload of heat. So if you go to the Wikipedia. Uh, this is what they quoted. So, you know, I can't verify it because it's Wikipedia. You know, Nastasia could go in there and enter that, you know, whatever she wants, right? In fact, she's doing it right now. Uh, uh, I think that's actually what she's doing all the time. What she's doing that. She's actually just loading in like, she's updating like really like random facts. She's like, uh, you know, she's like, Elliot Gould, Wikipedia? You have written on Elliot Gould's Wikipedia page? Awesome. Awesome. I love myself. Elliot Gould. We were talking about him like over Christmas. Oh, man, I love my man. I love myself, son Elliot Gould. What happened to Elliot Gould? don't know. I love smell. I love myself some really cool. Anyways, uh, so, you know, don't trust anything on Elliot Gould's Wikipedia page from now on,
+
+[29:29] because you know, Nastasia just put her fingers in there and they're like, all of a sudden, you know, Elliot Gould's going to be friends with Elton
+
+[29:34] John. All sorts of terrible things are gonna happen. Anyway, according to them, one liter of water, we'll combine with 3.one kilograms of calcium oxide to give calcium hydroxide and 3.4
+
+[29:47] mega joules of energy. To put that into perspective, that is an entire kilowatt
+
+[29:52] hour or the same amount of energy it takes to run a 1000 watt thing for an
+
+[29:56] hour or in calories, 846,000 calories. And it can deliver it at a fairly high heat. So that's a very high heat interaction. So I don't know of any use for calcium oxide. itself in food, but calcium hydroxide is extremely interesting. So calcium hydroxide, which you can get as form of pickling lime. You can get it in Mexican places as Cal, which is, you know, what was used for
+
+[30:25] nixtamalization. It's also available, membrane just erased, but it's also available
+
+[30:30] under a couple of the names, but, you know, that stuff's great, and it's, oh, a Thai red line paste and Thai line paste. You can get it. It has, you know, it's calcium hydroxide base. And that's really interesting. It has a faint cementy taste on its own. It's not very soluble, but it's also used to do things like
+
+[30:49] nixtamilization, which changes the taste of things. And anything that requires something that's either has basic or that has calcium is one of the reactions. So we use it a lot. It's also used in sugar production because they, for a number of reasons. And this is interesting. I did not know. I knew that they have to keep sugar on the relatively basic side when they're processing it to prevent it from inverting, right? Because if sugar is even a little bit acidic. If sucrose, table sugar is even a little bit acidic as it's being processed, it will invert into glucose and fructose separately, which is a problem for sugar manufacturers because then it won't crystallize
+
+[31:22] out, and they don't sell fructose and glucose, they sell sucrose. They sell table sugar. So everything is kept on the neutral or slightly basic side. But when you're doing when they're doing beet sugar, they go through a process and I learned this this morning of not carbonation, one of my favorite things on the
+
+[31:37] earth, but carbon notation. And what they do there is they put, uh, they put calcium hydroxide into the mix
+
+[31:46] with uh, into the, into the juice. And then they shoot uh, CO2 carbon dioxide into that. And what happens is the carbon dioxide reacts with the calcium hydroxide to form calcium
+
+[32:00] carbonate. And calcium carbonate isn't soluble. So what it does is it forms particles of calcium carbonate. And as it forms those particles, it traps other things in it, and so it can be used as a clarifying aid. So if anyone out there, I wonder whether there's a way to do an inexpensive,
+
+[32:15] uh, you know, centrifuge, free, uh, fairly quick clarification using calcium hydroxide. Maybe, interesting. Someone check it out. Someone tells me what's going on. Anyway, so there you have it, right? Yeah. Okay. Milk Cult wrote in. Can you guys cover real buttermilk, the byproduct of butter production, and acidified buttermilk, and impacts on hydrocollid. Well, okay. So here's the thing. So when I use, whenever you go buy buttermilk in a store, you're buying what's called cultured buttermilk, and it's not really buttermilk, it's just a low fat milk that they treat with a culture that's, I guess, you know, similar to what would be in a
+
+[32:53] culture, in real cultured cream, right? Now, so what you're getting there is the actual milk. The caseine is there. Uh, you know, everything is there in the normal proportions as would be for low fat milk. Only it's been cultured with bacteria. So it's tart, it's acidic, uh, and it's thicker, right? In buttermilk, what you do is you take cream, and you make butter with it, and the stuff that's left over is buttermilk. That's what real buttermilk is. And what it's mainly composed of is the whey proteins, the, because, you know,
+
+[33:31] the, the casing is what's, the, the milk solids go with the oil when you're making butter, but you, you know, you have some, you have casing, some casing,
+
+[33:39] I guess the casing comes out too. But some of it's trapped as milk solids and the thing, but all the whey proteins are basically in
+
+[33:45] there, I guess some caseine, some fat, some little bit of fat that's left over, and a lot of like great
+
+[33:52] emulsifiers and lactose and water. Um, If you use sweet cream to make it, uh, in other words,
+
+[34:01] just like right from, as the way you buy it from the grocery store, then uh, that cream, it will not be tart. will not be acidic. So most of the recipes that you're using buttermilk for in, you know, pancakes and whatnot. What you're really using them for is the acidity. You counting on the acidity from them. And that's why you add baking soda to those recipes because the baking soda is interacting with the acidity in the buttermilk to leaven your products,
+
+[34:23] like, let's say, pancakes. You know, they also sent tend to make a more tender crumb, things like biscuits, not that nastasia would know because she hates biscuits. Very similarly, sourdough starter is mainly used in pancakes, not for its leavening
+
+[34:36] capability, and that's why you can use an old, nasty sourdough starter for pancakes. You're using a sourdough starter there for its acidity to re- and that's why a lot of those buttermilk pan- sorry, sourdough pancakes will have soda in them, baking soda in them, because they're actually doing an
+
+[34:50] acid-base reaction, and not leavening in a traditional way, or they're augmenting the traditional leavening with
+
+[34:56] a NASA base reaction. However, when I make buttermilk, I typically take my cream. I will buy buttermilk and you have to make sure that the buttermilk that you're using is has active cultures. And so the one I get from Whole Foods is usually very active. I've had bad luck sometimes with the one I get at my local supermarket, of a culture not being active enough. And then you take your cream, and 2, like your quart of cream, you can add, you know, like a half a cup or so of buttermilk, and then I let it sit out in the kitchen overnight, and then my cream is cultured. And then I get real buttermilk from, and that's the way you would make cultured butter to
+
+[35:34] be let it sit however long you want for the culture to develop, for the cream to ripen, and then you make your butter
+
+[35:39] with it. That buttermilk is acidic, and that buttermilk, so that buttermilk has the, like, the best of all the world has, like, the interesting, awesome taste of buttermilk. It has the emulsifying properties of, you know, that are in a traditional old school buttermilk. And it also has, which I guess mainly come from probably the whey proteins. I'm not sure And it also has the acidity. So what do you think? Good. Good. Okay. Um, and I guess it's time for our 2nd commercial break already. Yeah, 2nd commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[36:38] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[37:07] And welcome back to cooking issues. Anna from Hungary Road in. Thank you for covering my questions last week and clearing up my Dulce de leche recipes and processes. I made Dulce de leche without the water this past weekend and stirred almost constantly and it did work. Previously, I thought the water was there to prevent the milk or sugar from burning while they interact, and the water is just slowing the process. I read more on the my reaction. I learned a lot. Anyways, I want to say thank you for giving me a heads up and now we're ready for flavors and perfecting the recipe. Well, thanks. I'd love to hear a feedback that something actually worked, right? Right. Feels good. Okay. In from Nick. in Seoul, Korea. And he is writing to you, Nastasia, because he doesn't really care what I say. Sorry I missed you this week. I'm Nick from Seoul Korea. I called about cold smoking bacon. I just wanna follow up my inquiry. Dave says, I'm not going to get the desired effect, which, by the way, is to reduce the emissions and deposit of harmful substances while preserving the good smoky flavor of bacon, because the good smoky Roman that we love is released at the combustion
+
+[38:10] temperatures along with the various possible carcinogens and other nasty stuff. Well, that is, unless I make major modifications to my setup. What if you go low and slow? Woods essential oils and aroma compounds are also released at lower temperatures, say 200 to 300
+
+[38:25] Celsius? No, wouldn't keeping it under the combustion temperature of 2 or 300 Celsius for longer duration, more or less produces
+
+[38:31] desired effect. And also, do you have any experience smoking with herbs, grains,
+
+[38:35] flowers, and pollens or any mixture of them? Are there any things I should be made aware of before giving it a whirl? Looking forward to hearing from you. Best regards Nick. Okay, so we have to separate what's going on here. Woods essential oils and aromas do go out at lower temperatures, but you
+
+[38:50] gotta remember, these are compounds that are already in the wood themselves.
+
+[38:54] So things like the aroma of cedar or the aroma of sandal wood or any of those aromas or pine. Those things are in the wood, uh, and relatively easy to volatilize. In fact, they're there. can smell them, right? So they're clearly they're fairly easy to volatilize. The other things in them, uh, like, you know, the the phenolic uh, things like uh, the one that you always think of as being associated with smoky
+
+[39:20] flavor is guayacol. And that is not in the wood to begin with. It needs to be produced, and it's produced by the pyrolysis of Lignin at high temperatures. Now, is there a way, maybe, to produce
+
+[39:38] it really long, it's not? I don't know. I haven't wasn't able to find anything in the literature to to make, to figure out like what those flavors, to produce those flavors at a lower temperature? In addition, remember that the temperature at which the smoke is produced, even in
+
+[39:55] the higher temperature range, which is where we're talking about, the actual flavors that you're produced, the actual reactions that take place are dependent on that temperature.
+
+[40:04] So the flavor of a particular smoke is going to depend on the temperature at which it's created as well. So it's not like even all high temperatures are created equal. But I don't know of a way that you can get traditional smoke flavors at lower temperature. Now, like I say, getting the volatiles out of it and making those kind of flavors, I think
+
+[40:20] it would be very, you know, be easy to do at those lower temperatures, but not the traditional smoky flavor.
+
+[40:25] If someone tell someone call back and or write me and tell me of a way to do it. but I don't know of any way. Okay, hello, cooking issues team. From Matthew. I hope everything is good with you guys in 2013, I decided to add some Xanthan gum and soy
+
+[40:40] lesson then to my vinaigrette recipe to help it stay emulsified. Now, Xanthan is, of course, the, you know, one of the magic hydrocoloids that comes from bacteria, and it's awesome because you can use it in very small quantity, so it doesn't mask flavor.
+
+[40:54] It can go into almost any recipe, whether it's acidic or not acidic. It can go, it can be heated, it can be cold. It suspends things like pepper because it has what's called a yield point, so it forms a weak gel unless it's being agitated.
+
+[41:09] So it's amazing stuff. Problem before, we said, it used too much of it and things get snotty. But it's really kind of amazing, amazing stuff. Uh, So, less thin, of course, is less thin, which is a
+
+[41:20] phospholipid that's derived from soybean, uh, processing. Less thin is in a lot of recipes. Anytime we use egg yolk as an emulsifier, we're also using less of them, but remember less at the end from an egg yolk is not the same thing as less than from soy, very
+
+[41:35] related though. Anyway, that was just the before we get to the full thing, so you know. Okay, the 1st recipe I use for a reference was here on HTTP,
+
+[41:43] ModernistCookingMadeEasy.com. And they made a maple vinaigrette recipe. It called for 0.6 0.6% less than, and 0.2% Xanthan. I made a vinaigrette that was about 840 grams, and then added 5 grams of less than, and one.7 grams of
+
+[42:02] xanthan, and spun the whole thing in a VitaPrep. Vit Prep's always a good call, by the way. Love the vitaprep. Alas, it broke almost immediately and shortly after completely separated. After this, I consulted Martin Lerch's Kymos's texturous
+
+[42:16] Hydrocoloid Cookbook, and its recipe called for 0.2%, less a thin, and 0.1 to 0.4% Xanthan. Again, I started with 840 grams of vinaigrette, and then I had one. 7 grams of less than and 0.85 grams of xanthan. Also, a complete failure. I'm not really sure where I went wrong, maybe my inferior mask skills contributed. In both cases, I completely ignored the recipes and used my own vinaigrette recipe and just added the
+
+[42:42] hydrocolloids in the proportion specified. Could this be the issue? I'd assume that with the additives and the ratios, with the additives, the ratios of the other components weren't as important. Any other suggestions or ideas on using less than Xanthan or other stuff to keep dressings nicely emulsified. Thanks. Okay, uh, we tend to use, um, uh, when I'm thinking salad dressings. I typically use something called uh, a tickaloid, uh, you know, 310
+
+[43:07] or, or 210 or 201 or 301. I think they're all very similar. They're mixtures of gum Arabic and Xanthan, because I have a lot of them around because I use them in drinks. So they're using a gum Arabic slash Xanthan system to thicken and stabilize. And those things last forever, forever. And both of them are very good at different, at different acid levels. So here's a way, there's a couple of things that can be going wrong there. First of all, I looked at the recipes and both recipes state their percentages in a way that is normal for cooks to state
+
+[43:38] them, but not really accurate. Hydrocolloids, the thickening power of a hydrocolloid is based strictly on how much it's interacting with the water in a system.
+
+[43:50] So I looked at the maple vinaigrette recipe. It was 45 grams of balsamic vinegar, 15 grams of lemon
+
+[43:56] juice, and 20 grams of maple syrup, and 90 grams of olive oil. So when they were doing the recipe calculations for that, they added all of those numbers up to get the
+
+[44:05] percentages. However, the Xanthan gum isn't interacting with the 90 grams of oil. So that shouldn't factor into your percentages, right? It's just not, it shouldn't. Also, the balsamic vinegar is mostly water, so that's okay. The lemon juice is mostly water, so that's okay. And the 20 grams of maple syrup, though, is only 13rd water. So that's like 7 grams. So if you look at it, this recipe, uh, they says that one gram of less of thin is 0.6%. It actually using one.. 4% of less than on a water basis. Now, less than you can't really count as a water basis alone because it's interacting with the oil because it's an emulsifier. So like the, the, the water, the total amount and the water oil part is is important. I don't really know how to work it out from an accurate standpoint, but anyway. But back on the Xanthan gum, he says he's using 0.2% Xanthan gum, but on a water base, he's really using 0.45% Xanthan gum. Okay? So 11 problem is, is that when you're looking at it, you should look at the amount of water in your recipe for your Xanthan,
+
+[45:07] and in fact, he's adding 0.45. I went and analyzed Martin Lerch's recipe and he's using, I have it here somewhere. Yeah, he's using actually much more Xanthan than he would because he's not counting the oil on
+
+[45:24] his Xanthan either. So, you could up your Xanthan or make sure your percentages are in line with what they want for the
+
+[45:31] liquid. Another problem you might be having is maybe your lesser than is no good, and you're lesser than
+
+[45:36] is, are you using powdered lesser than, or are you using the one that's in granules? The granules might not be dissolving properly. The good way to figure out whether it's the lesser thing that's the problem is you can figure on a general basis that egg yolks are roughly 10% less thin.
+
+[45:49] So if your recipe works just by adding 10 times uh, the amount of egg yolk as you
+
+[45:56] added uh, less of thin, right? So in your case, let's say you were using the one gram of lesson. If you were adding 10 grams of egg yolks, it should have roughly that same amount of less
+
+[46:04] than, but it's not going to be a problem hydrating. So that one, if you added the egg yolk and it worked, then bang, it's probably your
+
+[46:11] less than's not going in there properly. Could be, you weren't hydrating the Xanthan properly. Remember, you're doing it a very acidic environment here, if you're using some of these recipes. So just take a look at it. Another, so I would look at your hydration, even though you're using a vitiprip and make sure everything's getting hydrated. Um, I don't know about less than performance in extremely acidic environments. I don't know how acidic your environment is, but look at the actual water content of what's going on. Test it with egg yolk to see whether that's the problem. Up the Xanthan slightly, because the way the percentages are being calculated is a little bit
+
+[46:45] wonky, or switch to something like Tickleloid 310, which I know works in these situations, because I've done it all the time. Now, one more thing is that you might want to whisk the less thin into the oil if you can. And if you have a water that's in there that isn't very acidic, if you're using something that's not very acidic, I would put the
+
+[47:03] hydrocolloids as much into a non-acidic thing as possible before you start, they'll hydrate faster and easier. Uh, yeah? do you think? Good. Good. All right. Okay. Let me see. Find another good question. Uh, oh, we had a question in from Ben. Actually, we probably only have time for like one or 2 more questions anyway, right? So, uh, we have a question in from Ben, uh, from San Francisco. He says, hello, Dave, Hammer, and Jack, and I'm going to put Joe in there. Yeah, really? Come on. Guys, shout outs to Joe when you submit questions. No, seriously. Seriously people. Where's the love? I know it. I know it. You know what? Although I'm sure you get the love as the front man in the band, right? All I want on Valentine's Day is to be recognized on issues. Next week is our Valentine's show. Right, but you know. 2 weeks from now. Yeah, but the Valentine's Day is on the 14th, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but like, but Ben wants like advice now. He got to plan in advance. No, no, no. He's not going to make his, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I know, just let you know. So, yeah, next week we'll, you know, we'll have the Valentine's Day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. thought you never answered this last week. No, I didn't get to it because we had colors. You would know if you... Whatever. I'm not even going to get into it. not even going to get into it. Don't make me. Okay. Oh, and everyone else who's heard it is here? Okay. So Ben went to San Francisco. Big fan of the show in the blog, so much so that I finished the entire cooking issues backlog on winter vacation with my girlfriend on Jolly. Now, remember, she wrote in and said that and we apologized to her on air for that, for her having to listen to it. Perhaps you recall her email. I do feel guilty about making her listen to it, but it was worth it. To make up for being such a horrible guy. I want to cook her a unique and outstanding Valentine's dinner. All right, I like this kind of question, right? We can go off on this one. I have a great pressure cooker, the Fistler brand, which I haven't used that one actually yet. I don't have it. But I hear it's okay. I hear it's good. You like it a lot, so maybe it's great. I have no idea. I'm used it. An immersion circulator, which is a, he has a crazy old poly-science 7312. We have that. That's the one that's on our circulator chiller that we used in the that we use with the Roto app or we're using with the Roto app. Vitamix, good call, strong call on the Vitamix. I love it when someone has a vitamix at home, because that just makes everything easier. And most regular equipment. What would you make for your wife on Valentine's Day? If you really owed her this time. Wow, it's mostly something else other than just the cooking issues. I mean, I hope I'm not that much punishment. I am kind of a little bit, talk to my, talk to my family. If you really owed her this time, something epic or unusual that a reasonably sophisticated amateur cook could make. Thanks for everything, your future Kickstarter supporter, Ben. Okay. This is an excellent question, but okay, so I have I have some good perspective. I've been doing Valentine's day, you know, meals for my wife for a long time. And I don't tend to go out on Valentine's Day. Uh, I always, always, especially before I was doing this professionally, uh, I was, um, I was cooking her meals, right? Here's the here's the issue. And here's what you have to look out for. When you're cooking a meal at home. for Valentine's Day. You're cooking it for just the 2 of you, I hope. Right? And so the main problem is to organize your meal, such that you actually get to sit down with her during the meal because
+
+[50:36] it's going to be irritating for her if you're not sitting down at the meal with her, right? So that used to be one of my main problems is I would have all this prep work done, but then there'd be a long lag in between the dishes as they
+
+[50:48] as they rolled out. And also, you know, I would be standing up doing a lot of prep, so the dinners would go very long. This is why I would suggest to you that you get that you do a lot of the stuff in the circulator and do as much post-finishing as possible.
+
+[51:04] Uh, you know, I would like you to write and tell me kind of like what she likes to
+
+[51:10] eat, and then I could give you some more recommendations for for right beforehand. But also, I used to like to do, like, probably like 4 or 5 courses on the Valentine's Day. Get your desserts done beforehand, right? Uh, and, you know, this, unfortunately, it's cold out. So you could do some sort of like hot coal. I used to do a lot of things that lit on fire because, I mean, that's what I do. I like stuff on fire. But try to go. I mean, I used I used to go nuts. I would do, I would always do a fish, a poultry, a meat, a dessert, and an appetizer,
+
+[51:40] some court, and finish with cheese. Definitely get a couple of bottles of wine in vacuum van. Don't force yourself to drink only one wine throughout the entire thing and start out with champagne, get a clamshell thing to open it. But I would definitely do, uh, I would definitely do most of my work in the circulator if at all possible so that you can sit with her
+
+[51:58] during uh, the time that you're eating and light something on fire at the end. Does that make sense? What do you think, Snows? What do you like to have for the, you don't care about Valentine's? What do you What would you like? I really don't You don't care. She's like, make it hearty pasta. Just make it a hearty pasta. Haughty. hearty pasta. Oh, here's one for you. Try, so, you know, if you like quail. and I like quail, the problem is also when you're doing this, another problem you're doing, if you don't do lots of plated dishes all the time, because you're cooking at home,
+
+[52:28] then why would you do that? The, the problem is, is that you plan a meal, and I've done this several times, is you plan a long meal for the Valentine's Day, and then you don't, uh,
+
+[52:38] you, you make her so full that she can't finish the last couple of
+
+[52:43] things. And in fact, the main issue with all of the small plates situations that you have in restaurants is it's extremely difficult to get the portion sizes right when you're doing multiple
+
+[52:54] courses because a little bit too little and you're hungry at the end. Now you can just solve that by making some sort of mega filling dessert, right? Or a little bit too much, and they can't finish this stuff as it goes through, then you're going to get depressed because you've been working all this time, and she's going to feel
+
+[53:10] bad that she's not finishing what you're making, either that, or she's going to stuff herself, which will then make, you know, the both of you, you know, we feel like you're stuffed. You don't like feeling stuffed at the end of it when you went on an occasion like that, right, Styles? No loving for later, right? I was hoping you would say that, so I would not have to. Thank you. App appreciate that. Finally, Nastasia comes through for me in a pinch. Hey, guess what, cooking issues, listeners. I'm single. So for Valentine's Day, you know, shoot us a line. I the only one here without a date. Really? Yeah, man. Come on, really? Jack has no date. No date. Really? All right, listen. Anyone in the New York area? don't have any women, listeners. Whoa. Wow. We don't know that. Wow. I'd be happy if we had women listening. I think we do. Wow. Anyway, back to Ben's problem. Ben. Ben. Well, Jack has a problem with a date. I'm working on, okay, we have 2 separate problems here. I have Ben's problem of what he's going to make on Jolly for Valentine's
+
+[54:07] Day, and hopefully I'm giving him advice without giving him specific advice. And then we have the problem that Jack needs a date. These are 2 separate interviews. We have a 3rd problem that there are no female listeners of the show, apparently. Yeah, you know, by the way, apparently Booker's new catchphrase. He says apparently every other word is apparently out of his mouth now. But, okay, so these all need to be addressed, but right now, I'll say some of the things that, I mean, look, get
+
+[54:31] an extremely, extremely, extremely high quality steak, and then do a low temperature steak, do 50,
+
+[54:38] like small piece, right? Cut it, pre-cut it. So it's nice. Uh, do it at 55 Uh, do it like up, uh, at 55, drop it to 50, then do a finish au
+
+[54:49] poiv style with like a cassis sauce, uh, and then you can finish it with whatever else you want as a state course. That's a freaking knockout. It's not going to take you any time at all. Make a good beef, uh, like a beef tasting sauce beforehand because you're not going to have a pan foam to make the, uh, to make the
+
+[55:06] casis sauce for the, uh, plow thing. But that's like there's a knockout. Also, for the poultry side, If you might not want to go all low temp because it's going to be a little bit too much,
+
+[55:16] but, you know, a low temp duck breast sliced with like a side salad, where you just finish it in the pan after it's
+
+[55:23] cooked, because you could take it almost from cold in a pan to crisp up the skin, 57 degrees on the duck breast for about 40 minutes, 45
+
+[55:31] minutes. Make sure you smash the duck down so it's nice and flat on the skin before you put it in the
+
+[55:36] bag to cook it in a circulator. Also, a knockout and a good poultry thing to lead into the meat, especially if you keep your portions
+
+[55:43] smaller. I would get the world's best cheese. I like to have cheese at the end before dessert. I like to have a cheese course. I just do with a glass of port, and you can do that or you can do it beforehand if you really need to, but to me, really good cheese makes a meal. Another, like, if you want to go weird on the, on the, on the poultry side, get the small quails, the small ones, you can buy them deboned already, or you can inside
+
+[56:10] out bone them. And this is one of my favorite things I used to do was I would low temp. I didn't have actually circulators at the time. So I had to do it old school. I would poach eggs, like a chump sucker. And then you would shimmy the egg into the boneless quail, which is really kind of weirdly
+
+[56:27] gross. Wait till you do it, you'll see. And then, uh, I mean, you don't want to deep fry on the Valentine's Day, but like flash cook or deep
+
+[56:33] fry the quail, so it's crispy on the outside, but then when you cut into it, the egg yolk is still runny and
+
+[56:39] it and the quail sauces itself. And that's a really interesting fun thing, like a quail with a runny egg on the inside that holds its shape and you cut it and it self-sauce itself. Make sure you serve that on some sort of like thin but like well-made kind of bruschetta thing. so that you can eat it all together. I mean, I've done that a couple times on Valentine's Day. Uh, but the steak's always a winter. And I'm trying to think of what else, what else I would do. But anyway, take those pieces of advice, send me back a tweet align. Tell me what you're looking for exactly on what she likes to eat. Uh, and uh, we need a day for Jack, right? We need some women listeners and a date for Jack. Hey, women listeners, prove that you're there and call in and give Jack some love it. And next week on the questions, I want a shout out to Joe, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Amber App, a revolutionary iPod,
+
+[0:05] point of sales system that can be used at a restaurant, bar, coffee shop, or food truck. Visit their website at amberapp.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:55] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday in Bushwick, Brooklyn, at Roberta's
+
+[1:09] Pizzeria, on the Heritage Radio Network. How you doing? How you guys doing? Good. You're right on time. It's like 12 on the dot. You like that? How about that? Yeah, man, what do you know? What do you know? So listen, big news. Nastasia has joined the social media scene. No, I don't believe it, though. Believe it, Jack. No way. Yeah. Yeah. So anyone that can hear this, I want you to go out and I want you to follow Nastasia on the Twitter.
+
+[1:40] It's Hammer, BDX. No underscore because that would prevent, that's like a barrier between the hammer and you. So there's no underscore. Right? has anyone followed you yet? No. Really, just at Hammer? That can't be. No, at Hammer BDX. Oh, BDX, okay, okay. Capital BDX. I don't know if that matters in that. So BDX is what we shorthand call Booker Index, the bar. Right. So and so BDX is like Booker Index. And the equipment, the equipment company on 54 Eldridge, we call BDXEQ. So anyway, so that's it. That's it, folks. Please follow me. I'll answer you, but I won't. provoke you. Not only are you on social media, you're asking people to interact with you? Well, if she's gonna do it, she's gonna do it. all the way, yeah. you met her? Have you met Nastasia? It's like once she's going to do it, She's like, no, no, I don't want to do it. No, people do it. No, that's bad. What she's going to do it. She going to do it. But listen, like, I want her to be like the vicious one. Like, I answer nicely, but if you Twitter her, it's going to be the vicious. So if you friend me or whatever you call it. I'll be vicious. Right. Yeah. So expect it. Except for the fact that I think also you will be able to tweet in radio questions to nostalgia. Well, what's one of the reasons she decided to do it was...
+
+[2:59] Blah, blah, blah, blah. In some other non-cooking. Oh, by the way, calling your questions, love, too, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. But in some non-cooking related news. Uh, well, Nastasia was non-cooking related news, but uh, you will not know this unless you know us personally, but we are kind of Kanye Shantis
+
+[3:17] of uh, of uh, tabloid headlines. And, you know, we flatter ourselves that we could someday be good tabloid headline writers, but I
+
+[3:24] saw in the subway today. Oh my god, the best. It's the best. It's like, it's right up there with, it's one of the great headlines. You've never told that one. Just sit toe. Which one? That's real. which one The one that you love, the best one. Oh, my favorite all-time tabloid headline. And like, you know, there should be awards for this because it's like such a genius art was uh, when right after 911 when we 1st bombed uh,
+
+[3:47] Afghanistan, and the headline was Cabulzai, Cabulzai. And you know that there's just some dude or dude at, whatever, sitting in a hole somewhere that they throw raw meat at. And they're like, we just bombed Afghanistan. Kabul's eye. they're like, 0 my god, you know what I mean? But so, so like, you know, like at 3 in the morning or whatever, someone wakes the headline writer and they're like, listen, listen, the
+
+[4:08] pope's advocating. The pope's advocating. Says he's too tired to, you know, mentally tired. too pooped to pope. Boom. I was like, oh my god, you know what? It's like, I almost just like quit my job right then. It was like, you know what? I need to study at the feet of this person. who could come up with a headline that's so genius.
+
+[4:30] LA news or post? I don't know. It was one of those, it was probably in one of the real papers. But it was in one of the ones that they hand you at the subway. So I don't know who does that. like the metro, yeah. I was like, you know what? It's like, it's like hilarious and like not offensive, but you know that the person meant it as
+
+[4:46] a genius. You love that. To poop, to pope. Genius. I've got bad news though. Nastasia, your Twitter account doesn't work. What the? Hammer BDX? Hammer BDX? I'm looking at it right now. Why can't we get it? Elliot just wrote in too. He said he can't get you. Do you have to activate it? You know what? We're going to get, you know, Jack and Joe, Jack and Joe know how to do the social
+
+[5:12] media. I'm going to pass you my computer, Jack. And so we'll get, you know, so ooh, another banner thing. This Tasha won't be typing, stopping for shoes during the show. This is like, this is people, this is an incredible show. Anyway. Chinese New Year. turning over a new league. Okay. Deer cooking issues, peeps. What are your thoughts on glassware shape affecting the taste experience? If a diner sips the same wine or spirit out of 2 very differently shaped glasses? Does it taste different? If so, is there any science to why? Keep bringing the awesome from John Riper. and it's, because, you know, it's spelled RIPER. there's a question. As everyone knows, I'm horrible at pronouncing names. So he hopefully added in parentheses, pronounced like the adjective, a riper apple beats an unripe one. And you are so right, John, about the right brow. Before I answer your question, let me... I was just putting her dumbass face on, but she has to face it, you see when she's talking sitting next to me. Anyway, uh, a, which is a little different from the vegan face because it's like some liking in it, just, you know,
+
+[6:15] anyway, so here's the problem with apples that aren't aren't ripe. So, have I said it? I said this before, probably on the show a 1000000 times, but just in case I want everyone to go to their local farmer's market. too late now. Don't worry about it. But like next season, when it comes around, for apples, I'm a huge encourager of new of using old Apple varieties, getting farmers to bring old Apple varieties into the market. The problem with a lot of old Apple varieties is they lose their crunchiness very quickly. They're, in fact, not intended to be crunchy. One of the things I hate most about Americans and the way we eat apples is that we refuse to eat apples that aren't like just like hard like rocks. We think that there's only mealy and bad or hypercrunchy. And so we tend to go after apples, like Granny Smith, even though it's an Australian apple, that are extremely crunchy. Mistake, because not all apples are supposed to be crunchy. But the problem is, a lot of the older varieties, especially the dessert or the early season varieties, are crumbly, which is the way you want a good Apple of that type to be. And in order to have it be crunchy instead of crumbly because consumers, we're too stupid to try and bend our heads around what that Apple wants to be instead of what we think every Apple should be, that the growers pick them when they're incredibly
+
+[7:32] underripe. And when you pick an incredibly underripe apple, it is just monotonically acidic. And there are some people out there who will like that thing because what they really want to do is suck on a warhead. But if you want the flavor of an apple, you want to let it ripen, even though those ripe apples aren't going to last very long. Uh, the old ones that, especially the early rippers. anyway. So yes, a riper apple is better, John. Now, to your question. As an aside. Anyway. Oh, my Twitter account works. Okay, I'm going to follow you at the end of the show. So to your question. So, so, the redo, uh, and it's, it's, it's redo, actually. Redo. I refuse to call it, but it's readal. I spoke to Maximilian Riedel ones. It's readal glassware. Oh, really? Yeah, readal. So, even though everyone says Riddell, right? Everyone. Well, if you took some join me, you'd know it's real. Anyway, so the, uh, uh, you know, they've made an incredible business off of the shape of the glass being incredibly important to the way
+
+[8:32] uh, you experience particular drinks. Um, I, in fact, went to a seminar. I can't remember who's who. There's the, the older Ridel and the younger one. I've met both of them, but the older one gives, and one of them is Maximilian, I forget what the other one is. But I was with the younger one, and we were in a, we were shooting something for a friend of mine who was doing a pilot. This is like 15 years ago or something. And, uh, he takes 2 of his expensive ones and he goes, ting, and he knocks them together. You know what he said? This is the sound of money. That's what he said. He literally said that to me. This is the sound of money And the younger one's kind of an Australian Playboy skills skis around in the Alps and stuff. You'd like them. She loves the Alps. anyway. So the, uh, it's one thing she likes. She hates biscuits but loves the Alps, who figure, you know, go figure. anyway. So, um, so, you know, Ridel uh, goes around, gives his seminars and makes a huge, uh, you know, the thing about how the glass uh, shape uh, is extremely important and does, he's incredibly compelling seminars, where you'll
+
+[9:34] be, uh, you'll be there and there'll be uh, 9 glasses. So like, uh, no, more. Three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three. That's, what is that? Uh, 27.? Yeah. Anyway. And so you'll you'll sit there and he'll do a grid. So he'll have the same spirit going across, right, with 3 different
+
+[9:55] glasses, and then the same glass going down. So you'll taste 3 different spirits in their correct glasses and in 2 wrong glasses in a grid. Not being very clear, but it makes sense if you think about it a little bit. And then he'll describe how only the particular glass shows off that particular
+
+[10:10] spirit properly. And it is quite a compelling presentation. However, I will say this. Uh, uh, he himself is a great salesperson, and he guides you through the the tasting. So it's not a triangle testing where you're testing to see which one. mean, you can tell the difference. There's no doubt. At least, you know, I've never done it in an unguided way, but when he did it in a guided way, you definitely tell the
+
+[10:35] difference. There is some, uh, BSR, we'll say, some kind of BS around it, where, you know, the the
+
+[10:43] Ridles are still talking about the, um, the tongue, and they show a picture of the tongue, and they bring out the widely discredited, incorrect view that you taste
+
+[10:53] only uh, certain things in certain areas. You know, the old, when you're growing up, they show you that map of the tongue. And in fact, they still show that freaking map. The kids brought it home. And did you know for those of you out there that you're not allowed to tell your kids that your parents are wrong, your wife starts punching you under the
+
+[11:09] table. If you start just saying that your teachers are crazy and wrong and what they're teaching you in school is incorrect.
+
+[11:13] Because apparently you're not supposed to do that. I think that's fine. Well, it has to be. If what they're teaching is incorrect, you know? Like the nutrition that they teach kids is insane. It's insane. I get in so much trouble because I'm like, well, your teacher is not a bad person, but they're just wrong. You know what I mean? But whatever. And then, uh, whatever. going back. So the tongue thing is incorrect. In other words, the old map of where you taste salty and sweet and all that is incorrect. And Reedel used, although you do have different densities of receptors, you know, over your tongue.
+
+[11:42] I mean, your tongue does differ. It does have a map, but it's not the way it worked, you know, like we were taught when we were kids. So Reedle makes a big thing about the shape of the glass directing, especially the shape of the
+
+[11:53] lip directing certain things towards certain parts of your tongue. And I think that in general is horse hockey. Now, it is true that things taste different to you depending on where they're delivered in your mouth and the shape of the glass does make a difference. I think the majority of the difference in the glassware is the bowl, the actual size of the
+
+[12:12] bowl, versus how much is poured in it. That makes a huge difference because that determines the airspace to liquid volume ratio, which is extremely important. Also, the shape of the bowl and how it holds and or concentrates and or dissipates
+
+[12:27] the aroma molecules, I think, is vitally important to the way that we enjoy wine. Uh, or any any liquid. So I think it's, you know, for instance, I'll give you, for instance, So in, um, when we do the red hot poker drinks at the bar, um, we, we hit them with the red hot poker, and if you stick any of those red hot poker drinks into a normal glass and put your nose anywhere near it, the alcohol vapor is so concentrated that is literally unpleasant, you can't bring it to your nose to
+
+[12:58] drink because, uh, you just can't. You know what I mean? just the alcohol vapor just blows your head off. So we always put those into coffee cups and, you know, not tall wall mugs, but wide coffee cups because it dissipates more of that alcohol vapor as you bring it to your nose. Similarly, a very small glass that you can't even stick your nose into is going to de-emphasize aromas and
+
+[13:22] things that have strong aromas. For instance, you know, those little tiny tasting glasses versus the ones that are like have those giant bowls and then like your nose just fits into the rim of
+
+[13:30] it. And then you're, you know, you're sticking your hot box and your nose with the wine. So you're, you know, it's, it's, uh, I mean, you can make a huge difference. And obviously there is science behind it, but I don't, you know, I wouldn't go so far as to say that
+
+[13:43] there is one particular glass shape for each particular wine is true, although I have to
+
+[13:48] say, from personal experience, the guy's spiel is compelling when done in person.
+
+[13:53] Yeah? Uh-huh. Yeah. She's like, yeah, whatever. whatever. Don't care. Okay. You got to announce, have people call in for Jack. Oh, yeah, this is the Valentine's Day. Hey, by the way, cleared up the Twitter issue. You're not at Hammer BDX. That's your display name. You are still at booker index bar. No, no, no, don't worry, I changed that. Nope. She messed it up. Look her yet. Just now? Wait, like right now? Oh my goodness. I'm learning. Wow. Let's not learn on other people's time, shall we? Okay. Well, not talk about Jack. Oh yeah. So Jack, still dateless for the Valentine's Day, very disappointed. Maybe Nastasia is right. Do we have any? I mean, look, Jack, look, the picture I tweeted out of Jack? Not necessarily. He's the one that's not the stuffed boarhead. Yeah. In that picture I tweeted out. But he's looking for the valentine. And this is the Valentine's Day. We got a call coming in. Who knows? Maybe this is it. Ooh, fingers crossed. Call her. on the air. Hold on, screw it. They hung up when they knew. All right.
+
+[14:52] Hey, how you doing? Hello? Hi. Hi, this is Judah from Maryland. I love your show. I have a question regarding gelatin and bloom strength. Okay. Uh, so I keep codes for myself and um, like so many other things aren't very many uh, kosher products on the market
+
+[15:12] uh, in certain areas. And gelatin is one of them. There is one company that produces powder gelatin, which they say is similar to Knox brand. But, uh, it doesn't have anything, uh, you know, indicating the bloom strength on the package. And I've tried to get in touch with them, I've tried to call, email, whatever. No response. I was wondering if there was any way to, you know,
+
+[15:37] uh, short of getting some fancy, uh, lab equipment to determine that myself. Um, whether or not it's, I know you mentioned uh, in one of the past issues, like an over under test, the numbers game, I think
+
+[15:49] was with the beep powder. Um, if I did that comparing that to the Knox gelatin, what what characteristics should I look for? Yeah, well, the bloom, you know, the bloom strength is, um, you know, it's not like, you're stretching my memory a little
+
+[16:04] bit. It's been a while since I looked at the technical thing, but it's basically how I believe the bloom test is a penetration test based on a certain percentage of gelatin after the gelatin has been aged for a certain length of time on a certain test block.
+
+[16:16] I think. Um, I believe that's what it is, but I have to go back and look it up. Or Nastasia, you can look up the definition of bloom strength while we're talking. Oh, computer useful. So, um, what I would do, though, from uh, from your standpoint of what actually makes it useful is, uh, I would,
+
+[16:33] by the way, Knox gelatin is extremely high bloom strength compared to a lot
+
+[16:36] of Knox is a pretty strong gelatin. It's like 220 or something, right? Yeah, it's pretty high. like in the gold. It's in the gold or platinum range, if you are dealing with leaf. You know what I mean? Right. So, and this is another thing, by the way, that I encourage everyone to pay attention. So like when I write a recipe, I write a recipe for Knox because I'm, you know, I'm depending on that bloom strength.
+
+[16:58] Uh, and my guess is that the bloom strength is pretty much, uh, you know, directly related to the um, chain length of the uh, gelatin uh, things. I'll read you what the Wikipedia says. Bloom test is a measure of the strength of a gelatin, originally developed by a guy named Bloom,
+
+[17:14] that I knew. The weight in grams needed by a probe to deflect the service of the gel, 4 millimeters without breaking it. So it's also a measure of its, uh, yeah, of its, you know,
+
+[17:24] inability ability. Yeah, resilience. Correct. good Thank you. Um, so what I would simply do is, you know, these things are fairly easy to tell
+
+[17:32] by, uh, what was the concentration it said to test it at? Oh, yeah. For the product... No, 6.6. When they're doing bloom test, they do it 6.6, which is very high. 6.6%. So what I would do is I would just make, I would just make the 2 gel side by side and then just test them. You'll be able to tell with your finger. You don't need a, you know, a 4 or 6 millimeter probe or whatever it is. If you just take the 2 and make them side by side, you'll be able to see exactly what's happening. I have my doubts that the kosher gelatin is going to be anywhere near as strong as the knocks. Um, because, I mean, do they say what it's made out of? They don't. Made from bovine skins. Okay, so it is a, well, okay, so good. It's not one of the kosher fish gelatins. No, it's not. Yeah, the fish gelatins are horrible. Everyone knows they're horrible. They're not as strong. They have a low melting point. They're just they're bad. I mean, they're not bad. You know, they're not bad. They not bad. not way to say it, but like, they're not a good replacement for Knox. But, yeah, so if it's made by cow, you actually, it has a good shot if they, you know, depending on how it's, it all depends on how they extract it. And at what point in the extraction, you get your stuff. Like, I think the 1st stuff that comes off is the higher
+
+[18:39] chain or, yeah. I think anyway, so like the, the, the stuff that's, you know, easier, I can think, to extract is the higher chain. It's been a long time since I've looked it up. So it's too possible. Just make the 2 side by side and push on them and you'll see what's going on. I mean, if you're going to use it for a more technical recipe. Like if you're going to use it for gelatin clarification, for instance, then, um, you know, I would, uh, then it's going to be a little more important exactly what it is, but if it feels fairly similar to the
+
+[19:03] knocks in reasonable concentrations, then I think it's probably going to act pretty much like the Knox, especially if it's a cow-based gelatin, uh, and not a, you know, not some sort of a fish-based gelatin.
+
+[19:14] Right. And let's say, let's say do the test, and it is pretty far off from my perception of it. Um, there would be really no other good way of determining, know, what it's comparable to. No, I mean, you know, short of getting, short of getting, um, you know, a bunch of
+
+[19:30] different uh, gelatins together that you... Like the leaf string. Right. Right. And then you can figure out, excuse me, sorry, you can figure out where it is in relation to the other standard leaf strengths, you know, the silver or the gold or the, you know,
+
+[19:42] the... But, you know, if the, the person, you literally spoke to a person and they said that it was comparable to Knox and Bloom strength? No, it says that on the package, actually, but I can't I can't get through to a human being. Yeah, you know, I would be careful. There was a big thing with, you know, vegetarian marshmallows back in the day, someone was using a supposed vegetarian gelatin that was also kosher, and the people who were making it were just
+
+[20:08] liars. They were just liars. Yeah, yeah. They just lied on the package. straight up lied. And then, and you can actually, it's an interesting Google search to dig down into is the case of these, all these people who were really excited that they could all of a sudden make these really spot on vegetarian marshmallows using this supposed kosher vegetarian gelatin replacer, when in
+
+[20:30] fact, they were just using Jell-O. Um, Yeah. But I'm not saying these people are liars. I don't even know who you're talking about. I'm not calling them liars. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah. Nastasia is looking at me like, you're calling these people liars. I'm like, I'm not. I'm not. But I would, you know, it has, look, if it's from cows, it has a good shot of being a high quality, I mean, high bloom strength gelatin. So I would just make them and hope that they are the same. And if not, you can always, you know, make, like you were saying, over under, uh, you know, make a, make
+
+[20:58] a, like a 2%, uh, a 2%, um, knocks, right? And then make like a 2%, a 3%, and a 4% of the unknown one, and then see where it falls, right? And then if it's in between, and just from a, you can tell just by, you know, seeing how far it bans for brakes, pushing through it, seeing how much force stakes to push through. And then you could probably hone it down to within a couple of tenths of a percent of how to adjust the recipes. Okay. Make sense? And then what I would do as a final thing is I would take it down after you think you know what the answer is in a firmer
+
+[21:35] gel, I would take it down until just a point where it doesn't gel, like a very, very light aspect, because that's going to be where the numbers are more critical. And if you can if you can make it mimic that on a light, light, uh, gel aspect kind of situation, you'll be able to do it pretty much at all the ranges. All righty? All right, great. Thank you so much. Thanks. good luck with it Okay. Okay. So, wait, did I answer, I answered the, I answered the glass question, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, wrong password. Oh my gosh, we're just breaking up today. Okay. Uh, question in from Zach in Pittsburgh. How Ewan's doing? I like you ins. You't like Eelens? Yelens? Yelens, are you in? you, you ones, you, you, you plurals. Okay. Like use. Like we would say use here. Pay use. Uh, although here in like the Jersey, New York situation, use can just be one person. That's a complete anomaly. It shouldn't be. What are you doing? You know what I mean? But it should be used, meaning like you plural? You know what I mean? Like y'all, like that's our y'all. Like, the people in the south are like, we have y'all. What do you have? You, hey, you guys, what the hell? Anyway, I've recently, this is Zach talking now. I've recently improved the quality of the cheese. I keep around the house, which has been a very pleasurable experience. My only problem is as the prices good cheese go for in Pittsburgh and everywhere, by the way, Zach, although you can get some decent cheese prices in New York for certain
+
+[22:57] things. You know, I'm always a, um, what's the word? shy or not shy. Beware of cheap, inexpensive cheese, because usually it means that it was stored crappily, and then the people who are
+
+[23:12] going to sell it for a lot of money, didn't want to buy it. And the bargain, basement. People decided that they could push a higher end cheese that isn't necessarily in peak condition. So they get it at a bargain basement rate and sell it out. And, you know, I'd rather not even, I'd rather not even buy that cheese. And let's just delicious, but, you know, usually a lot of that stuff's really busted up. you know what I'm talking about stuff? Yeah. So in other words, be weird, cheap. You know, inexpensive is one thing, but beware, like, you know, cut rate cheese emporiums. I had a friend who brought cheese recently to a dinner party that had a big red sales sticker on it. You know who that friend is. Yes, yes. Nastasia. Nastasia has the negative houseguest Olympics. Like, so like the Houseguest Olympics are where you keep a track of your houseguests as they come and you see you like, oh, they bought a nice bottle of wine.
+
+[24:00] They're good. It's got these people back or, you know, oh, they brought a cake. Oh, it's nice. You know, they brought, you know, bupkis. special Olympics. Yeah, she has the reverse Olympics, like to see who can bring the crappiest thing to her house. If you're invited to Nastasia's house and you really want to make an impression. Bring the crappiest thing you can find. be invited back all the time. Yeah, Boones, Boones, Farms. You know. I bring Pillsbury biscuits. Hey, you know what? You would like, you know, that's like the nicest thing anyone's ever brought her in her house. crazy. because I don't like biscuits. Oh, because you hate biscuits. Boom. See, no, and I wasn't even thinking because even though I know that she doesn't, in my
+
+[24:41] head, knows she doesn't like biscuits, my heart can't believe that I work with someone who doesn't like biscuits.
+
+[24:45] It's like, you know, whatever. Okay. So, wait, where was I? You want to take a quick break? Sure. Wait, answer the question or not? Did I even say the question yet? I didn't say the question. All right, we'll take a break. come back. Cookie. I'll see you in my dreams You are listening to Plexophonic. I'll see you in my dreams on cooking issues on heritageradionetwork.org. Still, I feel the thrill of your drums. Lips that once were mine. Tender eyes that shine. They will light my way tonight. I'll see you in my dreams.
+
+[25:39] Yeah. Yeah. All right, Jack has tested Nastasia's new email and it works. I mean, new Twitter. Okay, it works, yeah. Where are we last? Oh, by the way, where we going to get still going to get our fish's fish later? Oh yeah. Okay, okay. Always got to get it. So where we last left off, Zach was buying cheese in, um, where was he, in Pittsburgh? Yeah, Zach was buying cheese in Pittsburgh and he was having some problems because the cheese is expensive. So let's get back to his question because I wasn't able to finish it because as usual, I spun off into some crazy BS. Okay. Zach's only problem is at the Price is good cheese go for in Pittsburgh. I want to use every gram of the good stuff, is using the rinds to make stock viable. I've seen it described online, but have my doubts as to how well it would work, that cheese seems to be so non-porous that I'm not going to get much out of it.
+
+[26:35] I do most of my stock making the old-fashioned way. I know you like using the pressure cooker method. Would there be much difference in results using a pressure cooker for cheese stock versus the traditional stock
+
+[26:44] pot. Thanks for the great show, Zach, in Pittsburgh. Oh, yeah, it works. It works great. I mean, uh, you know, uh, Wiley for a long time has been making uh,
+
+[26:53] Parmesan Ryan, uh, Parmigiano. You're like Parmesan, what are you, an idiot? That's what Nastasia said. Look, she's giving me the idiot. of course. So, uh, no, but like the rinds of hard cheeses make uh, fantastic, um, stocks, assuming that, you know, obviously if you put something that's been,
+
+[27:10] like, waxed, then I wouldn't do it because, um, well, you could skim the wax off the top, I guess.
+
+[27:15] Or, you know, I wouldn't do it with something that's extremely, it works well with rubbed, hard rind cheeses. And, um, they, it's not that they melt out, but you remember, it was originally like a porous, uh, an agglomeration of the, uh,
+
+[27:32] solids and milk solids and stuff comes out. You leak fat out, you leak flavor out. So you do get a really good amount of flavor out of the rinds. Stay away from rinds that are disgusting. So when you eat a Parmigano rind, the rind is hard to get flavor out of when you chew on it because it's so freaking hard and dry and
+
+[27:50] dense, but it is not literally disgusting. You know what I mean? Whereas certain rhymes are literally gross. Like, you know, I wouldn't, I can eat a little bit of it, but the outside of a cloth bound cheddar isn't a rind that I would sit there and make a stock out
+
+[28:05] of because it's, you know, musty and mighty, you know, and I'm fine with mites. In fact, you know, there's a cheese. I've really been wanting to try from, I think, the north of Italy on the border in Austria and in Austria, that's all mites. They make a clark-like thing. Like, put it in tubes and stick it in drawers and let cheese mites, eat it until it's mites all the way through and you break
+
+[28:25] it and it's just a big brown, mighty mass. They're alive? Well, kind of, some of them are. Mighty mess. Well, there's this famous Italian cheese with the maggots, the maggot cheese. Where the flies lay the eggs and then they make the maggots in it and you break the cheese open and it's all wriggling. And, you know, it's not so common anymore. I don't even know if it's still legal in Italy, but it was very common back in the
+
+[28:46] day. And, you know, and they would break them open and some cheeses would have them in some wooden, but it was considered a good thing and people would mop up the maggots with the with the bread. Wow. Yeah, yeah. real deal. Um, so yes, uh, yes, and it works without a uh, without a pressure cooker, although I would highly recommend moving to pressure cooked stocks in general, uh, based on flavor and
+
+[29:06] time, if you get a non-venting, when everyone knows my feelings about pressure cookers and that you should use a
+
+[29:11] non-venting, um, pot to do your, um, to do yourself. Although interesting, I was thinking about this before, I wonder whether or not a venting pot, like the Fagors, that, you know,
+
+[29:21] I'm not a huge fan of. I wonder whether they're actually better for things like mustard seeds and sulfur things where we're flashing stuff off or whether they're better for, remember, way back in the day when I pressured, we
+
+[29:31] had this when we pressure cooked a durian? I wasn't there. You were there? So we were pressure cooking durian and um, it was, uh, it was pretty cool. We made a mistake and I had the durian in the bar. I usually put a, I usually put things like that in a bowl and put water underneath so that I'm pressure cooking it, but I'm not worried about
+
+[29:48] scorching, and I don't know, we put the durian directly into the pressure cooker, and it was a venting kind of pressure cooker, and we cooked it for an indeterminate length of time, and I opened it. And what we had was this kind of durian candy, like stuff at the bottom that it caramelized and it had no, it
+
+[30:04] was even for a 100% Westerner with no like of the durian smell. Stuff was great. I've never been able to mimic it. But, you know, a lot of my post tests on durian have been with the coon recon, which doesn't vent. I wonder whether durian requires venting pressure cooker. Interesting problem. I have no idea. Anyways, what do you think? You think we answered that one? Yeah, I'm looking at the manga cheese. So she, well, I'm trying to figure, she got her hand over her mouth because she doesn't want me to describe her faith, face. I can't tell you whether or not. Okay. Dan Rabinowitz writes in. First, I love the show. It's one of the few that both assumes a working... I have to interrupt. Dan Rabinowitz. Thanks for becoming a member. Oh. Okay, that's it. Thank you, Dan. Okay. First of all, the show is one of the few that both assumes a working knowledge of cooking and modern methods, but it still dumps it down enough for me, an attorney by day to understand.
+
+[30:55] I find it the perfect compliment to monitor his cuisine. Well thank you. Nice. So double things. I've heard your terrific method of infusing alcohols with ISI whippers. And I was wondering if it was necessary to use as a base something high in alcohol
+
+[31:07] content or couldn't I use wine and make a vermouth using the ISI whipper infusion method. I've been making vermouth using the recipe on www.winemag.com. Uh, and it's a wine enthusiast from April 2008, uh, which requires infusion, uh, which I've done sous vide in 45 minutes. And then after the infusion, the addition of sherry to fortify and stabilize, right? Could I infuse the herbs, botanicals via ISI and then add sherry and then voila, vermouth? I am kosher, and there's no good or even drinkable kosher vermouth. So this could be a godsend, pun intended. Much appreciated, Dan. Okay. First of all, if you're gonna, yes, you can do ISI infusion with water alone. It does work. It takes a lot longer. And the higher the alcohol content, the faster the infusions are. I would add the sherry before. I looked at the recipe very quickly. and I could try to look at it again, or nostalgia can look it up. I think there's heating involved in that recipe, right? Well, look up that, go into the email and look up the recipe. There is heating involved in that recipe. Then obviously you're going to add the higher stuff to fortify it later. If not, you know, I don't see any reason why you can't add the Sherry earlier and boost up the alcohol content. That might help. Also, one thing, you know, I really want to say about, it'll work. It won't be the same. It could be better, it could be worse. It will be different. So, you know, every aspect, uh, and this is, you know, something I come back to, uh, again and again with new, new techniques, um, in the kitchen is
+
+[32:37] sometime, sometimes techniques completely replace other techniques, like the only clarification method that I use at the bar now is
+
+[32:45] centrifuge, because I don't see any reason to use any other clarification technique.
+
+[32:50] But when it comes to something like, um, unless our center future is broken, in which case I would use one of the other techniques. But with confusion, all the flavors are dependent upon exactly how they're produced. So the temperature at which something's infused, the alcohol level at which something's infused, the concentration of the thing you're infusing, the length of time, the
+
+[33:12] pressure. Oh, every single one of the, in fact, also whether something's infused on its own or with other things is also dependent, whether the size of the particle is extremely important, you know, whether you've sucked aside from the actual pressure,
+
+[33:27] whether you've sucked a vacuum, and therefore gotten better contact by removing the air, so that you got better contact between what you're infusing and the
+
+[33:35] product. All of these things have an impact on the flavor. And it doesn't necessarily make things, better or worse, just different. So, you know, if you're using a vermouth recipe that has, you know, wormwood in it, let's say, which the recipe did have,
+
+[33:51] then, um, ISI is going to is going to be faster, and for uh, the same length of time, it will um, disfavor the bitter components in wormwood, right? And it'll preferentially pull out other elements. So when, you know, the way when I use ISI, I like to go back to one of the ones, the things that I do a lot in them, things like coffee, things like chocolate, and the advantage of
+
+[34:17] them in those instances is that it tends to extract less of the bitter components that you would get out by doing a longer term extraction, which favor extracting everything in, including all the bidders, and instead tend to favor the extraction of some of the higher notes and, you
+
+[34:38] know, some of the things that pull out faster. So I like, you know, I like it for that. ISI is also obviously good for doing things that are fresh and will not infuse
+
+[34:47] well, if you need to let them sit around for a long time. So it's not better or worse, different, right? What do you think? Was that a heated recipe? The salsa pie? No, the, the, the homemade vermouth uh... No, I'm on the other one. Yeah, so go check it out. But yes, you could do it in ISI Whipper. I would just let it sit a lot longer. You can also do oils in the ISI whipper. We've done we've done oils in it. Anyway, so yes, it will work. Um, and I would try it for, uh, I mean, I would try it for much longer than we do with hard liquor. I would try it for 10s of minutes, maybe even up to an hour and see what happens, see what kind of infusion you did. Yeah, it's heated. So that's why they add the sherry later. So you wouldn't even need to add the sherry later, if you're never going to heat it. You could add the sherry at the beginning. That would also accelerate your infusion. It still will be different. But it could be delicious. I would let it sit longer. Like, maybe the length of time you were doing the sous vide one, like 45 minutes. See what happens. If that's too strong, dial it back. Do you know what I mean? But remember, whenever you're doing ISI infusion, um, and you can go back on cooking issues blog, because it's open again, uh, look up the technique. When you're doing it, remember that it takes a good 10, 15 minutes after you've
+
+[35:55] unscrewed it and let it flashed off for the flavor to stabilize. Okay? Okay. Um, question in from who we got? Oh, actually, no. Yep, we have a question in from Tony Harrion. I know we do. I'm looking for it. Okay. Hope you were all well. I have a couple questions about distillation in a Rota app. for Dave. Do you still vouch for the use of a peristaltic pump on the condenser side? Is it really worth it? And what is your take on distilling several botanicals together or versus separately in a
+
+[36:23] rotav app? It is quite hard sometimes to distinguish if they create diminishing effects on each other. as described in the following quote from a magazine article, or if it is just harder to identify the specific flavors when you do distillation of multiple things together. And this is a quote from Difference Guide, class magazine, or class magazine is quoted on Difference Guide, with someone who's doing his own distillation in the London.
+
+[36:46] And the quote is, there is a, this is in quote, negative activated carbon effect from distilling botanicals separately. When botanicals are distilled together, as in traditional gin distillation, the presence of just one single absorbing element will affect the entire
+
+[37:01] gin, as it will absorb flavors from its neighboring botanicals. Uh, well, that quote is somewhat, um, what's the thing? It's a bit muddled in terms of like understanding it on its own. So what they're I've never heard of, by the way, a negative activated carbon effect before in my life. So I don't know exactly, I mean, what I think is that the fellow that was making the gins in London, like that's something that he and
+
+[37:25] like, you know, his crew talk about a lot. So it probably makes more sense. They're probably referring. I don't know why it's negative activated carbon in a situation, but they're probably talking about the effect that activated carbon has of absorbing flavors and somehow relating the effect.
+
+[37:38] What they're really saying is, is that multiple things still together. Uh, they can affect uh, the amount of flavor released by the other ones and so he wants to do it uh, separately. So then the question is, and this is from Tony, which do I prefer to distill each individual ingredient separately and
+
+[37:55] blend and blend them together, which is how this fella makes his gin, or distill it all together in the flask and do one single run? I think there's advantages to both techniques, flexibility versus speed just to begin, but it's not always easy to reproduce the result of one method using the other. Keep up the great work. Cheers, Tony Harrion. Okay. Uh, so my feelings are this. They are entirely different. There is no doubt in my mind that flavors taste different when they are distilled together and they
+
+[38:24] can affect each other. What I think, I don't think about it in the way that, um, you know, they're thinking about, by the way, in case people don't know what the hell we're talking about. A road of app is just as still that runs at a lower temperature because the entire thing's put under a vacuum. And it has a couple of advantages over a normal still in that we can get extremely high recapture rate of the flavors that go into it.
+
+[38:48] So it's very good, very, very good at doing redistillations of
+
+[38:53] botanicals, because we can do them at very low temperatures, especially fresh botanicals that you couldn't otherwise do that are very heat sensitive. And so that's what we're talking about. Here's the deal. I always recommend the 1st time you distill a botanical to distill it by
+
+[39:09] itself in pure vodka. I don't recommend you do it in water, and I don't recommend you do it in, uh, in super high proof ethanol. I recommend you do it in vodka. And when you add 40 proof, 40%, 80 proof. And so then when you distill that down, right? That is going to intaste it, that is going to give you an idea of what that sucker does on its own,
+
+[39:33] right? Then you can do some blending. But I would also encourage you to try a mixed recipe because I find that sometimes it is much better to do a mixed recipe
+
+[39:45] that the flavor you get from distilling things together is better than any mix I can make of things on their
+
+[39:53] own. However, there is no easier way to try to reach a target than to make all the botanicals
+
+[40:01] separately and then blend them together to taste. And I think that that is a very good way. And also, by the way, if you're doing bitters, uh, or even things like vermouth, a good way to figure out what's going on, is to do them separately to figure out what's going on and then mix them together and see whether you get a good result. However, then I would also try to do, after you've done that, then do a mixed version and see whether you like the blended one or whether you think you're going to like the mixed one better.
+
+[40:27] And so that's what I say. What do you think? Oh, and on the peristaltic pump, what the hell that means is rotovaps, the way they work. One of the downsides of a roto app is that the distillate stays in a
+
+[40:38] vessel called a receiver and over the course of the distillation. And that causes 2 problems. One, you can't taste it. So you don't know what the hell's going on. You don't know what it tastes like as it's going. And any regular distiller knows you want to taste the stuff to
+
+[40:53] see, kind of when you should cut the distillation and then also to taste how the distillation's going during the run. Uh, and if you needed to cut the heads, which is the beginning part, which we don't typically do in a rodivat, because we're not doing, we're not distilling uh,
+
+[41:04] ferment fermented things or distilling, you know, spirits usually. So, you know, it's good to taste, right? So that's the one thing. And so, well, you know, I developed a thing for the rodov app that you plug
+
+[41:15] on, and it uses something called a peristaltic pump, which is, you know, it just, it's
+
+[41:20] like a squeegee. squeegees the stuff out. Peristaltic pumps are great because they don't contaminate your product and they can work on a vacuum system.
+
+[41:26] So a stolid peristaltic pump that constantly pumps the distillate out of the vacuum
+
+[41:30] system, without you losing a vacuum, and lets you taste exactly what the distillate tastes like at any particular point in the
+
+[41:36] distillation. This is the key part. The distillation tastes different at every single point in the
+
+[41:42] distillation because the boiling point of the product is different as it distills. And therefore, what you're distilling off is different. So I think it's vitally important to be able to taste the distillate as it's being produced to figure out what's going on.
+
+[41:55] And in fact, certain distillates are better if you remove certain portions of them. And so you can do that only if you have a peristaltic pump attached to gauge accurately what's going on. The other situation, if you have an old road of app that's at all leaky, uh, the, the product sitting in that receiver is constantly losing flavor over the course of the distillation, uh, because
+
+[42:15] you're, you're losing, you're getting some airstripping through the, through the system because your road of app is leaky, in a perfectly sealed road of app, assuming you knew exactly when to do your cuts, you would not need to have the peristaltic pump, but I find that in the real
+
+[42:30] life, when it's a little bit leaky, you get a lot of flavor stripping out of that thing. And so the peristaltic pump is extremely helpful. The problem with peristaltic pump is that your tubing needs to be in top shape and you can't use the tubing recommended by the manufacturers because it's not strong enough to stand up to the vacuum levels that we're doing in the Roto app. And so, you know, it degrades very, very quickly. And once the tubing degrades, you actually get vacuum loss through the tube, and then it's just a big, just a big jambota. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. So that's that's that. So should we go to our 2nd commercial break? I think you should keep going all the way through. Keep going. Wait, just keep... I got to hear my fish is fish. All right, 2nd commercial break.
+
+[43:18] Fish is vicious vodka by the meatballers on cooking issues,
+
+[43:22] heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[43:54] We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member, Amber Point of Sale. At Amber Point of Sale, their mission is to help food service business owners take control of their restaurants,
+
+[44:08] bars, or cafes. Amber is an easy-to-use point of sales system that allows you to take orders table side, process credit cards, run reports, and manage inventory all through Apple's
+
+[44:18] iPad, and without spending 10s of 1000s of dollars on a system too complicated to use.
+
+[44:23] To learn more, head to amberapp.com. That's AMBURAPP.com or give them a call at 888-7702205 to discuss what Amber can do for you. To learn more about becoming a business member, email us info at heritageradionetwork.org. And welcome back. Dan writes in. Just finished listening to last week's cooking issue show and had a comment. Hope you can pass along. The show dealt with calcium oxide. And they didn't know what it'll be used for in cooking. In Andoni,
+
+[44:53] Edari's recent cookbook, Mugarites. He uses calcium oxide for at least 3 recipes where the calcium oxide is mixed with water and then a vegetable. From what I understand, after soaking, the vegetable skin is left intact, but the entire inside is a puree, so you get a solid with almost liquid inside. And you can see an example called fossilized salsify on the website. But a better one is a beet that is soaked in calcium oxide, and then turns the color, turns the color and wrinkles like a prune or a pumpkin, and it's hard outside, but a puree inside. I too is wonder if I could buy any calcium oxide and use it or if it has to be food
+
+[45:25] grade. Thanks again, Dan. Okay, listen, once again, that has got to be a mistranslation
+
+[45:30] because it's calcium hydroxide. You know, the fossilized vegetable thing, you know, uh, it's something, you know, we've done uh, before calcium, calcium oxide. Look, I could be 100% wrong here, in which case, please write in again, but calcium oxide added to water will immediately react with the water and form calcium hydroxide and a large amount of heat.
+
+[45:53] So, uh, my guess is, is that, you know, we're dealing with, unless you read it in Spanish, that we're
+
+[45:59] dealing, either with a mistranslation, or I don't know why he is using the oxide, which is literally going to just sit there and convert into calcium hydroxide when it's added to water, uh, and
+
+[46:10] liberate heat. That recipe should work with calcium hydroxide, which is
+
+[46:16] cow or cal, you know, or any one of those other things, pickling lime or anything. I didn't get a chance to actually look at the, at the website to take a look or look at the recipe, but all of those stiffening things are not the result of the base nature of the calcium mox, but due to the calcium itself, the calcium, it, 1st of all, lowering
+
+[46:38] the, um, the calcium, um, strength and the pectin, right? So what happens is the calcium goes in there and encourages the cross-linking of the pectins that are in the outside. And because it's not vacuum infused in, it only works on the things that are outside, and so the pectins don't break down, uh, even over long periods of cooking, uh, in something like uh, when you're doing
+
+[47:00] Nixtamal, the, the basicity is also useful in dissolving the seed coat uh, on the outside. But I don't know what effect the basicity has on something
+
+[47:12] like, on something like, I don't know, my brain is totally fried. But the basicity has on the effect of something like uh, like a vegetable, except for this. I know that when you add baking soda to broccoli. We did this test. Do we ever put this on cooking issues? I can't remember. If you add baking soda to broccoli water, the stuff stays green forever because it's not acidic and so the chlorophyll doesn't get changed
+
+[47:36] informants stays bright green. The problem is it gets mushy because, um, in basic conditions, the pectin breaks down much more rapidly, right? Yeah. However, if you use cow, right? The calcium prevents the basic nature, uh, from turning it mushy and it stays uh, stays hard. So, you know, my feeling is, is that if you used calcium oxide as you're a calcium source, that it would just turn to calcium hydroxide anyway, but
+
+[48:02] please someone who's better in chemistry, call back and tell me what's going on. Anyway, uh, what do you mean? enough? Okay. Okay, Marty writes in. Could you please ask Dave what his experiences have been like fermenting rice? I made a giant pot of glutinous rice, pitched a couple of Chinese yeast balls in with it, and put the whole mess into a fermentation pot for 3 weeks before straining out the liquid.
+
+[48:22] The results taste like cloudy sweaty balls. If you remember that, remember that? sweaty balls. I love that like, I love, though, that you actually have a mental, whatever. I'm not going to talk about it. I'm thinking I didn't let it ferment long enough, any tips, thank Marty. Marty, I'm thinking you fermented it too long. So what we're talking about here is these balls, you can get, did McGee ever write about them? Harold McGee taught us about them, is that you can go into almost any, you know, large Chinese grocery store in
+
+[48:49] Chinatown, and you get these little yeast balls, and they look like little white, almost like malted balls, you know what I mean? And then, and they're a mixture of, uh, you know, bacteria, I think. and yeast, similar to kind of Koji, but different, you know, similar to the Japanese Koji kind of thing, but different. And you cook a glutinous rice, and then you crumple up the ball and you mix it with water and you put it into the glutinous rice. and it breaks it down, it breaks into a liquid, so you can make something, you know, this kind of liquid drink,
+
+[49:18] Chinese style liquid rice drink, or and the rice husk left over can be fried. And McGee was doing a lot of work on it. And I think he might have written about it for either for something or other because he had done a lot of work with it. And Dan Felder at Mumafuku's lab,
+
+[49:30] worked with it a bunch because they're doing a lot of work with different kinds of Koji. Um, But those things ferment relatively quickly, like when I was doing it, I've only done it like 3 times. I let it only go for like 4 days. Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that you're you're a cloudy sweaty balls is mainly due to letting it go too long.
+
+[49:52] Now, I wasn't getting super high yields out of it. So maybe you're trying to let it go longer because after it broke and went liquid. You didn't get enough of a yield out of the situation. I know Dan Felder has been doing some interesting work where he's pre-breaking the rice grange to try and increase the yield for stuff like that. But I don't know enough about his actual techniques because, you know, we don't actually work together,
+
+[50:13] right? But I think your problem there is you're just going too long. I used mine like a day or 2 after it broke and I did my I did my stuff in
+
+[50:22] my dehydrator. I put it in a big bowl, in my dehydrator covered, so I wasn't actually dehydrating it, but so I could keep the temperatures high. Because my temperatures, I think I was running it at like 120, a little under 120, maybe like one, like maybe like
+
+[50:37] 100, 100 degrees Fahrenheit, 110, 100, something like that. covered with plastic wrap, and it only ran like 4 days or something like that before I used it. So don't go as long, Marty, and taste it as you go. Taste it. Did you forget about it, Marty? I think what happened is Marty made it, and he let it sit there, and he forgot about it. And then he came back, you know, several weeks later and so because, like, because what I would do, whenever I do anything like this, is you got to make a large enough match so that you
+
+[51:05] can taste a little bit as it goes, so you know what's happening to it along the way. And I think you'll find that earlier in the process, it's going to be a little bit better. Right? Okay. Kevin, you writes in, and you know, Twitter... What are you doing? Natasha literally smashed her head into the microphone. Yeah. Yeah, sure, it was a headphone. anyway. So, yeah, we we talked to Kevin a lot on the
+
+[51:32] Twitter, and he rides in that he's been working on a cocktail
+
+[51:36] book, is 90% done, and sent us a copy. So we're going to read it and then I will make some comments next week on the book after we get a chance to read it, right?
+
+[51:45] Yep. Yeah. You know, I myself am all, it's on the cocktails and science. Uh, and uh, so I, you know, I look forward to, look forward to reading it. I am also, of course, writing a book on a similar subject. Of course, mine is 6 months overdue and I'm a bad person and I'm getting threatening letters from my publisher, true or false. 8 months overdue. What did I? was doing June, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the moral support. Star, it's just a font of moral support. Anyway. So, uh, Penning, what? your head has been on your neck your whole life. How do you not know where it is? The best segment of the show yet. Seriously, people. I think, you know, man. Okay. So I'll leave you with this. Ken Igbert, long time listener, friend of ours, friend of the show, he's is he a member? Can a member? Not yet, but Ken, if you should be. He came to the Museum of Food and Drink event that we did a couple years ago. By the way, little... That was more expensive than the membership. Yeah, that's right. Membership is only 60 bucks, Ken. heritageradionetwork.org backslash donate. Wow. I have to. Yeah, to plug the plug. Okay. Speaking of the museum, before we go out, good news on the
+
+[52:58] museum where we're looking at some different spaces for spaces. So look for more stuff happening in the museum, a lot of people are like, what's going on with the museum? What's going on with the museum is, and this is the museum of food and drink. For people that this is the 1st time you've ever heard what's going on. We're working on a museum of food and drink that we hope to open up in New York City in the next couple of years. We're going to start small as a gallery space, and we have a lot of really, really good, good people behind us in the food community. And there's an RFP,
+
+[53:24] request for proposals for spaces in the Lower East Side, right near where I live. And so we're trying to work on that. If we can't get that, we're trying to find some other spaces. So anyone that wants to come help out, we have people working on the museum full-time, we have a team of 3 people working on it full-time. Anyone wants to, uh, you know, volunteer to help help them out or give any advice on that stuff. You know, please tweet us on in and I'll send you on over to the Museum of Food and Drink people. Tweet nostalgia, please, please follow her. Otherwise, I'm going to have to hear the mopingness of no one following Nastasia. Oh my god. All right. Anyway, so longtime listener and supporter of the museum, Ken Ingber, wrote in about the question we had on philosophy. Remember? Oh, before I do that, do I have time to, we had a call in real quick. I know a call in, but someone who tweeted in late. I'll do their question real quick because I'm going to be fast. Elliot writes in. Dave, Nastasia, and Crew. I thinking about making bread with a portion of the flour replaced by dehydrated vegetable powder. I would juice the vegetables, reserve the liquid to hydrate the dough, then dehydrate the
+
+[54:24] pulp, and grind to a fine powder for use as a dry ingredient additive in the bread. Any suggestion on what to do, what to add to the dry ingredients for gluten development, thanks for the help, Elliot. Okay, so I'm assuming that you're dealing with a regular gluten bread. And then, so this is not a difficult problem. And I used to do this all the time. Just go buy vital wheat gluten in the store. And then, you know,
+
+[54:51] whatever percentage powder you're adding, just add enough vital wheat gluten to equal the proportion of bread flour and you should
+
+[54:57] get not 100, it's not going to be 100% similar because the product that you're adding isn't flour, but you should be able to get some of the strength involved. So let's say you were going to add 20% of the weight of, you know, of the flour, um, as this vegetable powder, right? Then what you're talking about is 20% of the weight of the
+
+[55:16] flour, you figure you're like, you know, 14% protein or something like that, 12, you know, whatever, 12, 14% protein. So you should add, whatever, 12, 14% of that, 20%. you should add as vital wheat gluten, right? And it's not going to be 100% the same because you're adding like a pectant slurry and stuff like that. The other way to do it is not go through that trouble is, because here's what you're doing. what you say you're going to do. You say you're going to juice the vegetables, right? And then you're going to hydrate the dough with the liquid from the vegetables and then add the pulp. It seems to me that if you just figure out, go on the internets and figure out the moisture content of the vegetables to begin with, then you
+
+[55:51] could calculate how much liquid is in the vegetables. Oh, I see what you're worried that you're worried that there's not going to be enough. I see. It's going to be hard to hide. My head is thinking, well, you're worried that it's going to be difficult to hydrate unless you actually separate it out versus just adding the
+
+[56:06] puree to the bread. That's my guess, right? Right? Anyone else with me? Anyway. So if you think that's otherwise you can just add the puree and add gluten to make up for it, but I see what you're saying, you want to get the juice, hydrate the dough properly, then add the paste
+
+[56:17] back, whatever. Try it that way, but just add some vital wheat gluten, it shouldn't be a problem. Okay, back to Ken. So a while ago, we had a question on why is it that there's so many chefs who, you know, have philosophy
+
+[56:30] degrees? And, you know, I speculated maybe it's because, you know,
+
+[56:35] chefs like useless degrees? I don't know, right? I have a philosophy degree, you know, whatever, Wiley, I think
+
+[56:42] Chang maybe even we said there's a whole bunch of people that... Chang's religion? Hilarious. Anyway, uh, so Ken Ken had some, uh, Ken had some, uh, thoughts and I will share them with you on the way out. Ken writes, I am not a chef, so let's be clear, my answer is not from a chef's perspective. I am merely a home cook with an interest in the modernist approach and a degree in philosophy. Although Ken, I guess, putting it to good use, unlike, unlike, you know, me. Um, I think the connection is that uh, we philosophy majors are particularly interested in the essence of things. Julia Child 1st brought my generation, the platonic ideal of both French cooking and fine cooking. The long-standing movement back to ingredients, and back to authentic styles of cooking relate to the essence of food. And I believe modernist cooking and its progeny start with the notion of the essence of food. The works of chefs like Wiley are charming in both senses of that word, because both chef and customer begin with an understanding of the essence of the food and launch from there. The food challenges both chef and customer as to what is the essence of food, the nature of
+
+[57:40] food, and the platonic ideal of food, maybe even God help me, the epistemology of food. Caning burr, cooking issues.
+
+[57:54] Hey, what's up? Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[58:05] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family run eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit rollingpress.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushway, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:23] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:47] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cookie issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming live in the back of Roberta P3 here in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the
+
+[1:03] Harris Rio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12. Now at roughly one, right, Jack? Yeah exactly. We're rough over here. We're rough, we're rough. Well, you know, when you're in a, you know, in an old container in the back of a pizzeria, you're, you know, you're a little rough, right? Right? Okay. Join as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and with a special guest who, uh, Jack, you want to explain the uh, the contest here? Yes. John Sisson? I hope I pronounce the last name, right? He won an auction at just food to spend a day with me here at Heritage Radio Network. So he's sitting in for cooking issues. Yeah, nice, nice. And John was a chef. Retire? long ago? 15 years ago now. Yeah. And where were we just shoving in for our... I was at the old town bar on 18th Street for about 10 years. Nice, nice. How are you enjoying your day so far? It's been great. I've heard 2 or 3 shows and I really enjoy anything and I love in the back of Roberta's here. Yeah, yeah, it's nice. I mean, it's interesting seeing the people eating their, Well, I guess they're just now eating their lunch. You'll see some weird folks have had we have people doing their hair. while looking at us, right? Like it's a one-way mirror. It's very strange. Very odd stuff, odd business. Okay, Dave, before we start the show, I have 2 big shout outs. John Riper listener, and he submitted a few questions, made a very nice donation to Heritage Radio
+
+[2:22] Network. So thank you, John. And today, Yehunda Malka, and I hope I said that correctly, became a member of
+
+[2:27] heritageradionetwork.org as well. So cooking issues fans showing their support. Beautiful. And we have a question from both of them, and it is Yahuda from Silver Spring, Maryland. Give some love for Silver Spring. You ever been to Silver Spring, Maryland? My car broke down there once. Joe has. Yeah, Joe, nice. Yeah, Joe, as usual. And Nastasia, this is your 1st full week of having a Twitter account, so what do you think? I like it. Yeah? In fact, you're looking at it right now or just texting Zappos. Is that the 1st time she said I like it on the program? It might be. It might be. Speaking of, we have some we have some nastasia related questions today. Justin Bray went into into the Twitter and said, how did Nastasia get the nickname the Hammer? What do you think? You gave it to me. Yeah, but I mean, like, what's your interpretation? Uh, because I'm tough on people? Why don't you tell them why you gave me? I know, because, you know, the whole point is that, like, we have this thing where I'm supposed to be nice to people other than
+
+[3:23] her. And she is supposed to be mean to people. And see, this is the way most, you know, kind of business teams work, right? Where you have the one person who's always kind of, you know, friendly, right? So they never appear to be the jackass, right? And then you have the other one, the hammer, who basically is like, nah, all that stuff he said that you could have or that he was going to do. He's not going to do that and you can't have it. And she's supposed to do that, but it turns out, people, that she's actually only mean to me. So not true. Every time I try to be mean to people, you are not happy about it. And you're like, what are you doing? That's not that's not okay. Right. And also, she has all the subtlety, the fine subtlety. a hammer. No, but also, you know, hammer, boom, strength. Right? Yeah, right. What was the other one? Oh, the other one. Uh, was, I'm trying to find. Oh, yes, from John Powers Kirk, must be to you, although you erased it and said, can you tell Dave that you're smarter than
+
+[4:22] him? But then with an emoticon afterwards? That kind of like, you know? Also, I would believe him, except he used the wrong your. Oh, bringing the hammer out. See, I was gonna see, that's why she's a hammer. I was gonna leave that out. I was leaving that out of the equation. can't be avoided. Well, how do I take that seriously? And how do you use the name the hammer unless you bring it up? Strong. You know what anastasia? accepting emoticons now? Look, Nastasia can do it. She can do what she like. She can do what she likes. But you know what? Like, uh, that is that is the occasional show of strength. It makes me appreciate the Lopez a little bit. Okay, call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. Let's go to the question we already questions we already have from John Riper, new donor and member. Thank you. And as we said, I guess a couple of weeks ago, apples are better when picked riper, right? Wasn't that how it how it worked? Okay. Deer cooking issues peeps. I often hear chefs say that roasting meat on the bone gives it more flavor. Is that true or is it the same kind of perceived wisdom as searing the meat to seal in the juices is when and for those of you that, oh my god,
+
+[5:27] Indie Jesus is back on Tuesdays. I know, I know. You know, I wish that everyone who could hear our voices could see the
+
+[5:38] glory. The glory that is indie Jesus. Listen, and we're not allowed to play other people's music anymore, but I need a little bit of what's the buzz.
+
+[5:47] Tell me what's happening going on for your little Andrew Lloyd Webber action. Maybe just for us to listen to during the break so that I can have some indie Jesus. We'll credit them or whatever we need to do for the sorry, John, for the for the tangent here, but now I got Indie Jesus on my mind. Okay. So as we all know, searing the, you know, searing the meat, uh, to seal in the juice is, is an old, an old thing
+
+[6:10] that, uh, chefs and cooks say that dates back to uh, Justice von Liebig, and it was, uh, this is one of Harold McGee's great, uh, kind of personal hangs his hat on this fact is that he was the 1st to call, uh, what's the, what's the plate way of saying BS, just horse hockey or
+
+[6:26] whatever? Yeah. The 1st to call crap on that. Crap on searing. And in fact, searing is just something that makes incredibly delicious crust on a meat
+
+[6:35] and has nothing to do with sealing in the juices, right? Okay. I mean, searing, still obviously, good practice, just doesn't happen to seal on the juices. So back to the question. Just so you know, the background for John's question. Okay, I can see how the bones could affect the shape of a
+
+[6:49] roast and influence heat transfer into the flesh, but I'm missing how a bone generates much
+
+[6:54] flavor even to adjoining meat, let alone how a bone affects the flavor of roasted meat that's further away. John, I think you're dead right here. I think what the bone is, is the bone is a moderating, a moderating element from a heat transfer for standpoint. Also, I mean, I guess you can make an argument that the more you hack into a piece of meat to get rid of the bone, the more you spread it
+
+[7:17] out, the less it's a whole piece of meat. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think it's mainly, it's, in terms of actually adding flavor, other than the fact that I love Louis Prima's song, the closer to the bone, the sweeter is the
+
+[7:28] meat. The last slice of Virginia ham is the best that you can eat. You know, aside from that, I don't think there's much to it from an actual flavor standpoint.
+
+[7:35] And assuming equal cooking, if you took a cube of meat that was far away from the bone or close to the bone, other than the inherent muscular differences between them, I don't think there'd be much difference
+
+[7:47] of flavor. What do you think? Yeah, see? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, like, is that one of the things you still believe, Nastasia, in your, in your kind of, like, you know, panoply
+
+[7:57] of, uh... Oh, you don't think about it. Okay. You know what I mean? what does it have to do with Zappos? Nothing. Has nothing to do with Zappos. I don't care. By the way, the other thing I had back on you being smarter, the smart one of the two,
+
+[8:11] which, I'm not denying, by the way, but my feeling, I just get a secret feeling that John
+
+[8:16] Powerskirk is, in fact, just another biscuit hater. like you. another hater of biscuits. Anyway, I actually like questions like that. I mean, and I would love someone to call in and tell me I'm an idiot moron that in fact the bone really affects the flavor, but I don't think so. Because what? It's not going to happen. Wait, oh, we're getting a picture of Indie Jesus if she's going to tweet. She's not going to get a good one, though. It looks like the Messiah is delivering pizza. Look at that. Okay, well, tweet it out. I would just like to go on record and say Dante is a really great guy. Before I do this, Jeff. Well, there's no denying that he's a, I mean, like, would Indie Jesus make him a bad person? No, no, just in case listeners think we're, you know, I just want to put it out there. Great guy. All right. I mean, I don't know the man. Other than that, I wish he would deliver me pizza. Oh, he might. He's working our station. Oh, this is awesome. Okay. Tom writes in. Hi, Joe, Joe, you get the call out first. Jack, Nastasia, and Dave, my family wants more bread than my wife and I can bake. And so she's wanting a bread machine, but these are bulky and expensive for a grad student in a small apartment. I'd have trouble justifying the purchase if the machine only makes bread. Are there other uses for bread machines like low temperature baking, carrying sous vide,
+
+[9:23] et cetera? Alternately, could I use some other device to bake bread? And if it turns out you're a fan of bread machines, what's your favorite? Thanks, Tom. Tom, I am not a fan of bread machines. My grandpa had one and it was kind of sweet. He always used to bring over these like strange square loaves of bread with the bottom ripped out where the little mixing thing was in the bottom of the bread
+
+[9:44] machine. I never was such a fan of my grandpa's loaves. And so I never developed a deep abiding love for bread machines. I will say this. When I was an undergraduate, one of the ways I wooed my wife
+
+[9:58] was, I went to the thrift store and I bought, you can't buy, don't buy the old ones if you have a family because, you know, all of the insulation is made out of asbestos and the cords are made out of
+
+[10:08] asbestos and I'm sure they're fire hazards. But they used to sell these old things called turkey ovens because the idea was on Thanksgiving that you had very little oven space and you need to cook a bunch so you would cook your turkey in this separate
+
+[10:20] oven, and it amounts to a cross between a crock pot and an oven, and it looks like a giant Dutch oven with a plug coming out of it. And turns out they get hot enough and they can make a passable loaf of bread. You have to cut a special plate to fit into the bottom so you can pull it out in and out easy, but you can even put like a quarry tile into one if you knock the edges off the quarry tile and fit
+
+[10:41] in, and they get hot enough to make a decent loaf of bread and they're small, somewhat portable, cheap. They can still be had at thrift shops if you want to dare the old plugs or rip the old plug off and put a new one
+
+[10:51] on. And that's how I used to bake bread. I was an idiot, moron, and I didn't go get a stone. I used to rip the backs off of notebooks, the cardboard backs off of
+
+[10:59] notebooks and bake my bread on noses my sheets. And yes, the bottom had a slight cardboard he taste, but I was 18. I was 18. anyway. Uh, you a fan of bread machines, uh, John? you ever use one? Mostly for the dough only. Oh, because it's a good mixer of the dough? use it for mixing dough and actually I'm a big fan of the no need recipe. Oh yeah, the Lahey, no need recipe. Yep. And that's great with the steam that's generated in a cast iron pot. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us nowadays, a lot of us nowadays are shifting towards the super long, like whether or not you're a firm advocate, and we're talking about
+
+[11:37] Lahey's book, what's it called, Bred My Way. And also Bitman, who wrote a bunch of articles and at times about it, and he kind of, you know, Nastasia worked for him for like 25 seconds. 30 seconds? How long was it? a month. Yeah. Anyway, so, you know, fabulous breadmaker. I mean, I mean, if anyone lived in New York prior to when Lahey opened Sullivan Street bakery, like you know that when his bakery hit, we were all like, wow, that's good bread,
+
+[12:02] right? Right. We were all at me. Wow, that was good bread. It still is good bread. Uh, but uh, it's kind of a miracle in uh, in kind of uh, bread. I think it, you know, was a harbinger of a lot to come in the way of, not that there wasn't good bread here in New York. There was good bread in here in New York, but I mean, I think his style of bread was kind of new and we really in
+
+[12:19] here and we, I think everyone really appreciated it. And his book made a lot of ways. But I think one of the reasons it's become so popular is that in addition to his no
+
+[12:26] need kind of recipe, which is seen as a low work and therefore American friendly way to do things, we're all of us going to much longer, longer, longer rise times in our bread
+
+[12:41] baking, when we have the time to do it. And so I think that most of us now, especially build into our regimens, if we're going to bake, whether it's pizza, whether it's bread, you know, we're more apt to plan a day or to an
+
+[12:54] advance and so we can do some of these longer. It's not that they take more physical time in the kitchen. It just takes more actual clock time for these things to happen. And so I see a big shift. And I think that's one of the reasons that's become popular. But I never thought of having one just to need the dough. It's an interesting idea because you don't have to like mess with it, like you do it, because the KitchenAid makes a horrible mess when I'm... Yeah. Hour and a half you have dough and then you can bake it off in your in your turkey roaster. And your turkey roaster. You know, I bet you could probably get bread machines in the thrift store around the eBay too. Probably, right? As anyone who's ever heard me before knows. a huge fan of the buying stuff cheap on eBay and then, you know, fixing it all with duct tape. Although Nastasia, our New Year's resolution. No more duct tape. Well, no more ghetto. Yeah, no more. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, like, we don't want to be the people whose boxes is stuck together with duct tape. We want a new box, right? Fair? Yeah, fair. Oh, speaking of which, Nastasia. we need to convince some company to let us test out a vacuum machine so we can shoot the
+
+[13:53] cocktail book. Okay. Anyone out there runs a vacuum. I happen to like the minipeg. We never got we were supposed to shoot a thing from minipac and we never did it, right? follow up with him. Yeah, right, all right. mini pack. M Pac makes a good vacuum machine. You know, well, this is interesting. All the vacuum machines work. It's just whether or not you like the people like the programming and like the features. The mini pack, what I like about it, and we're going to talk about vacuum machines in a minute. What I like about the mini pack. And I'm not saying that they should ship me one. But what I like about it is it has a really good chamber size for the actual footprint of the vacuum,
+
+[14:20] which to me is important because, and to a lot of our listeners is important because, you know, what you end up getting limited by in a vacuum machine is the chamber size of the vacuum.
+
+[14:29] Anyhow, okay. Uh, you think I'd answer Tom's question? Yes. Okay. I don't think they're accurate enough to do low temperature cooking, by the way, to go back to your other
+
+[14:38] question, and they're not also meant for, I think, complete, although they can take a merger. I'm sure the gasket in the bottom. They're probably built like a blender in that way. They could take a full thing of water. I, you know, and look, theoretically, you could probably take a bread machine,
+
+[14:51] uh, PID control it with an external thing, like rip out the plug, put the heating element. I mean, because I've done that to, you know, the Wyatt steam table bass that, you know, we all use like the big electrics, did it, just click on and off, on and off. I modified one of those to do low temperature cooking once with a thermometer and a PID. And you could do that with a bread machine. You could probably even rip out the, you know, motor, slow it down somehow so that it could just
+
+[15:14] stir, uh, and then put a grate over it so that you could throw bags into it, and you could theoretically hack the thing into a into a low temperature cooker. The problem is, is that the, I mean, if you look at the loaf size, it's kind of like tall and loaf shaped or round and loaf shaped, I
+
+[15:28] think. I think my grandpa's was square, but I think they're round most of them, right? Now are they're square shaped. vessel that they bake in. They're square, either a vertical square or the horizontal square, like the traditional loaf, but the mixing doesn't work nearly as well. No, I would go vertical if I was going to get it. So what I... Yeah. But the point being that it's not a large volume for low temperature cooking. And so I think you'd have trouble, not from a power standpoint, probably, but from
+
+[15:52] a from a cooking area standpoint, converting it to a low temperature cooking machine. anyway, okay, okay, okay. Uh, now, here, here's a, here's a long one. And I, this is uh, from, uh, Mark Krasnow writes
+
+[16:06] in, who's moving from New Zealand to, uh, to Hyde Park, I guess, I guess, or not whether it's moving, he's going to start teaching at the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park.
+
+[16:14] And we're friends with some of the folks. And by the way, I don't know whether we, do we announce this last week that I'm actually like the French culinary or the international culinary center and
+
+[16:23] and we have parted ways. don't think you did. Yeah, yeah. So just so everybody knows, uh, my, you know, long-term tenure at, uh, you know,
+
+[16:32] what when I was hired was the French Culinary Institute. Like we're now no longer working together anymore, but we're all still very
+
+[16:38] friendly, right? Yeah. Anyway. So I am no longer the director of culinary technology. But very proud of what we did there. We did a lot of excellent stuff and we wish them all the best. Okay. Anyway, uh, so if CIA wants to hire, No, I'm just kidding I just messing around. I don't know, I don't have time. No, I'm done out of time. Anyway. So Mark Raznow, I currently teach viticulture at the Eastern Institute of Technology in Napier, New Zealand. I wonder where that is. I wonder where Napier is. Do you know? No, I'm very bad with my New Zealand geography, but loves Zena Warrior Princess. Okay, I currently teach viticulture at the Eastern Institute of Technology in Napier, New Zealand, but we'll be heading to the
+
+[17:18] States in May to start teaching the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park.
+
+[17:22] I very much enjoy your show and I love the fact that you folks know your science. Thank you. A colleague of mine, Chef Marques, has told me that he noticed the meat's fully vacuum for sous vide cooking seemed more tender to him than those with less vacuum during sealing. We recently conducted an experiment to test this hypothesis using the gluteus medius muscle, dissected from whole top sirloins. Triplicate samples were sealed at 3 different levels. Uh, in, uh, in an audi- in an audio, uh, VMS 53 sealer. which I don't have any experience with that. But they were done at a medium vacuum and full vacuum at the lightest vacuum they could do. Now, I'm not allowed to talk about any of the specifics of the paper because it's in review. So I won't do that. I'll just talk about the other parts of it, which are important to me. Anyway. One of the pieces of information we needed to write up and publish the paper was the actual
+
+[18:09] pressure experienced by the food at different ceiling levels. I contacted the manufacturer, but they could give me no numbers as to the actual vacuum that would be affected by a pump
+
+[18:18] strength, because it was affected by the pump strength, age, size, stuff to be sealed, leaks, et cetera. What they did tell me was that the number on the dial does not correspond to the percent vacuum, but
+
+[18:28] is rather the number of seconds that the pump runs. Therefore, I had to check the pressures on the dial of the machine in our kitchens during ceiling. What I found was surprising at least to me. Full vacuum pressure. The dial set all the way occurred at about 30 seconds, regardless of the setting on the dial, suggesting that the pump has only one
+
+[18:46] speed, and that full vacuum would actually be achieved at numero 30 on the 1299 setting, which is totally
+
+[18:52] misleading, in my opinion. Okay, 1st of all, let's, let me hit that before I go on, because it's a long type thing and I want people to keep track of what's going on here. Older style vacuum machines. And we're talking about chamber ceiling vacuum machines that we use to seal foods and bags typically for low temperature cooking or if you go into a supermarket and you're buying meats that are cryo bag or whatever,
+
+[19:11] all right? vacuum ceiling. Older style vacuum pumps have a time random and they run their pumps for a certain length of time. After that length of time, they seal the bag, let the air come back in, and it's done. Newer style vacuum. And for those ones, literally it's just a timer on it. And so you're just setting it for a length of time. Newer style vacuum machines have in them vacuum sensors that are actually sensing the level of vacuum that's being stored. They are still, however, not accurate as to what is being experienced by the food in the bag. They are accurate about what the vacuum level happens to be right where the sensor is. Now, how can those be different, right? Like, they seems like vacuum should be the same everywhere. And on an instantaneous basis, that's true. However, many of our foods have trapped air on the inside of them. Leafy greens, have lots of air on the inside of them. Anything with bones. There's lots of air on the inside of a bone. And so many of our foods have trapped air. And, you know, one of the biggest demos that we used to do for low temp sous vide at
+
+[20:16] the, at the French culinary in our, in our, in our classes, and I think we've done it at the Harvard lecture, she throw a marshmallow into a vacuum machine, and the marshmallow expands, and everyone's like, oh,
+
+[20:25] that's cool. the marshmallow expands because the air on the inside's expanding and it can't get out. What's interesting about the marshmallow experiment isn't that they get big. It's that they start shrinking again about 10 to 15 seconds after you start sucking the vacuum. And what that tells you is is that the air inside the marshmallow is slowly leaking out. And what that means is that the eventual pressure that your
+
+[20:47] food will partial pressure of oxygen in an atmosphere, that your food will feel on the inside of the bag, is dependent on how much of the trapped air that you get out of that
+
+[20:56] food, and that is not measurable by a gauge on the inside of your vacuum machine.
+
+[21:01] Now, in your experiment, where you're using presumably whole muscle cuts, without a lot of slices in them that are not all jammed together in a bunch of different pieces and there's no bones in it, right, then you can start making assumptions like whatever the gauge is telling
+
+[21:16] you is fairly accurate. But here's another point, right? So the gauges in a typical vacuum machine that have analog gauges are horribly
+
+[21:26] inaccurate and horribly inaccurate. And especially when you get into the range of interest, which is where you evacuated over 90 to 90 and
+
+[21:36] change percent of the error that's available in there. Those gauges are because there's much less for them to measure than there is for them to measure at full
+
+[21:43] pressure. So they're horribly inaccurate in those in those ranges. And so it's difficult, not impossible, but difficult to gauge with an analog gauge exactly what's going on with
+
+[21:52] one of these machines. Now, you could put a fairly accurate digital gauge in there and measure it. But again, it's not necessarily going to be indicative of what a customer or a user is going to experience on a piece of meat when they're doing it.
+
+[22:06] Another thing is, is that I don't like that some machines measure in percent vacuum. Percent vacuum is a horribly imprecise term, even in the imprecise world of measuring the vacuum on the inside of a vacuum
+
+[22:18] machine, because the closer you get to 100% vacuum, right? The more widely variant, the actual numbers that they're measuring are in terms of millibar. So it's difficult to measure that way. So instead, I like the ones that measure in millibar. Here's another thing that true that a lot of companies won't tell you unless you ask them. Some companies that have gauges on the inside of their vacuum machine will actually measure the pressure up to a certain
+
+[22:42] level and then just throw on a timer. They're like, so, you know, the old mini packs work that way. They'll actually measure the vacuum level up to about 90 98%. And then after it's at 98% vacuum, it just starts counting off a timer. And you know how I know this because I defeated the machine, stuck my finger against the vacuum thing, let it go up to 98%, released my thumb so the air was streaming through the machine
+
+[23:06] and atmospheric pressure and watched the numbers, keep taking on up to 99.9% vacuum.
+
+[23:12] This is how I test these kinds of things because back then I had more time than good sense on my hands. So anyway, so that's how it works. Okay. So back to back to your question. Or back to your what you discovered. We found large and statistically significant differences in the century sensory parameters between the medium and high vacuum levels. We compared with the minimal vacuum levels, but very few differences between the medium and high vacuum samples experienced
+
+[23:37] the same pressure. This suggests that more time at full vacuum has diminishing returns as far as improvement of sensory
+
+[23:43] properties in a relatively non-porous food like muscle foods. Um, okay. And then I have a lot of comments on that, but I'm going to wait for a second. Your question after that is, is this mode of action typical of vacuum sealers, or do most actually have settings that correspond to the actual pressure in the ceiling chamber?
+
+[23:58] I'm suspecting that my vacuum machine is rather old and not exactly top of the
+
+[24:02] line, and then newer ones might be more adjustable. I figured you guys being experts on the equipment side of things might be able to help me out with this question. I think it would be very interesting to redo this study with an actual measured half vacuum around 50 500 KPA. Although I only think in millibars, which is millibars, like 1065, 1065
+
+[24:20] millibars is atmospheric, normal, like standard atmospheric pressure, and 0 is full vacuum. So anyone that wants to discuss in a way that I understand has to go in millibars or my brain just, you know, there's only so much I can keep track of people. Okay. Back to your other statement. I, I actually believe exactly the opposite of what, uh, your paper, um, uh, what you what you're suggesting. In other words, I think that the higher vacuums actually decrease the quality of
+
+[24:48] the foods, okay? And what you're saying is extremely interesting because, and, you know, we haven't done it in a controlled way, the way you have. But we've done it in over many iterations of the sous
+
+[25:02] vide, low temperature class that we've taught. And what's very interesting is, is that is that the likes and dislikes, because you're talking in your thing, tenderness and juiciness, which are terms that are so loaded that I hate, I hate using them.
+
+[25:16] And the actual, whether you like it or not, splits kind of down the line where some people really like the low
+
+[25:24] temperature, low vacuum pack samples. In fact, ziplocs, I think are the ideal for those people. I'm in those people And then you have the camp that seems to like the higher vacuum one. And whole muscle red meat cuts are the least affected by the vacuum level in terms of sensory
+
+[25:42] perception. Chicken and fish, like salmon, are the ones that are kind of affected the most. Here is the deal. When you, and this is why tenderness and juiciness aren't necessarily good indicators. When you chew into something that's cooked that's bagged and cooked at a high vacuum level, it explodes with juice in your mouth, and then in my
+
+[26:06] feeling, turns to mush because it almost has a fibery characteristic that you don't necessarily get at the lower vacuum levels. So in the people that like that, that's perceived as being juicy, because you get this explosion of juice, and is tender, because it's soft, for me, it is lack of
+
+[26:23] structure. And when the more you chew, the 1st 3 bites, 1st 3
+
+[26:29] choose, rather, are extremely filled with juice, but the last 3
+
+[26:34] chews are kind of dry and pulpy. So to me, I like the quality better at much lower vacuum levels.
+
+[26:42] So it's difficult to equate, like statistic, like actual statistically measurable
+
+[26:46] things like how much juice is expressed or how much force it takes to drive a, you know, a probe through a piece of meat, much harder to do, much easier to do that than to actually say, well, which one's better and which one's
+
+[27:01] worse? What do you think says? Okay. And with that, let's go to our 1st commercial break, cooking issues.
+
+[27:12] This is Fishes, Fishes, Vodka by the Meatballers.
+
+[28:09] Today's program has been brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices and personalized service, founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father, Cam
+
+[28:24] Lee, Rolling Press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks, uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical free production process.
+
+[28:37] For more information, visit rollingpress.com. And welcome back, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. What do you like better? The crazy or the mellow? You like the mellow? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, this is from Yahudo just became a member. Thanks, Yahuda, in Silver Spring, Maryland. I don't like that applause anymore, Jack, because they're really tentative about starting it up. I agree. The one that where like people are right into it, right? Or like the one class. Like the, like the, like the one like the, the sarcastic one. That one? Or just get like the golf clap in there, maybe. Get the old Bronx. You know, the old Bronx, like the, give him a raspberry, like, wah, wah. Anyway, no, but switch it up, Jack. Nostalgia, like, you know what? She's trying to live up now. Now that someone asks why she's called the hammer. She's dishing out... Always been so nice to me and now... By the way, Jack, did you get the date for Valentine's Day or what? I went dateless on Valentine's Day. Oh, man, do you have a pity party machine in there? Like a little sound effect more for that? Oh, that was you. nice All right, beautiful. Yeah, so what do you guys do for the Valentine's Day? I hope Ben cooked a good dinner for Andre there. I don't know whether I gave him good advice or not. I haven't heard back yet, which means I probably didn't, and now he's a hater, right? Right? I gave him bad advice. What did you do, Dave? I went to Del Posto Nastasia, where so I know that you weren't with your date on Valentine's Day because he was serving me dinner.
+
+[30:17] Excellent dinner at Del Posto. As usual. Anytime Dave can tread to ruin my happiness, he does. Oh, yeah, because Mark was gonna be home with you that day. No, he was supposed to be home earlier. It is true. Oh, you know, this is such a loado. It's so crisp. I have a text. Oh, yeah, yeah. From him that says, Dave is still here. I'm not going to be back by 11. It wasn't Anthony, we have 2 tables over for me. It wasn't Anthony Weiner, 2 tables over for me, and it was the reason that they had to say. It was a guy with his nose and sees every week. sitting at a table, you know, it was like a known that I like his food. Like, he has to worry about me and stay at the restaurant. That was his excuse. Please. Oh, fair, fair. You know, I'll take that hit. I'll take that hit for Mark. Tell about Brooks's cookies. Oh, yeah. Brooks, uh, you know, look, Brooks, uh, who also signed on in Norton, congratulations, he got a book deal. I'm sure he will actually deliver his book on time. Oh, and they give me that, even Brooks said, Brooks, one of my favorite one. Yeah, he would actually, being a, you know, a punk rock musician, but, you know, I really appreciate his pastries. So here's what he did. So it's a Del Posto. You know, what do they got? They got like 8000000 stars in New York Times or something like that. And, uh, so, you know, you're eating in a relatively formal environment, right? It's probably the most formal Italian Italian-based restaurant in the city. Is that true? Or like Maria, too. There as formal? Yeah. Okay. Anyway, formal. And so Brooks comes out and it's my anniversary, like I said, of going out
+
+[31:45] with dating my wife, you know, our relationship is 21 years old now and can drink. Uh, and uh, so he comes out and literally like takes these cookies. It puts all these like beautiful plated things on the table and then throws cookies at
+
+[31:59] the, like explodes cookies at the table such that I'm almost positive that some cookie shards hit Anthony Wiener in the head.
+
+[32:06] Actually, that's not true. He was like 3 tables over. I was like, Anthony Wiener. Anyway. So, yeah, so shattered these cookies and kind of broke the format, which I kind of liked. You've had that presentation, right? No, I haven't. just heard about it. And people like it, right? Because they're not expecting it. First of all, Del Posto, like Del Posto, the guy can't use a crumb scraper. The guy comes out with like a napkin folded up between 2 spoons, which means it takes him 18 freaking years to scrape the crumbs off of your table. You know what I'm talking about. Like Jen dropped a little spot of wine and they brought out the extra tablecloth that cover the one
+
+[32:38] spot of... when that happens. Yeah, here's the thing. For all the, I understand that's part of the formal code. But you're probably making my wife feel worse that you had to bring out a bib for the
+
+[32:48] table, then a little spot of wine. Yeah, if you spill it, then cover it. But, you know, whatever. But whatever. I like it. But my wife was like, man, I'm messy. I'm like, yeah, you are, because normally I'm the extremely messy one, let's be honest. Anyway, so like there's all this formality and then Brooks comes out and explodes cookies on the table and you're
+
+[33:04] like, what? And then you eat the cookies. His stuff's good Oh, yeah, great for him. like all props. props, props, props. Okay. Dave and Dave and Crew, because it just, you know, didn't want to get in trouble with the with the no Joe. So instead of just, you know, saying it all out, just said, and crew. Hey, crew, how you doing? Anyway, this is Yhuda. I'm currently transitioning between careers. I've been working as a high school teacher for the past 7 years and I'm now back in school for something totally different. While I was still teaching, a friend and I separately yet simultaneously began teaching ourselves how to be better cooks, mostly via
+
+[33:35] process of experimenting with recipes and techniques are seen beyond our skill set, while also focusing on fundamentals of culinary knowledge. Joined by a mutual love for cooking, especially for others, I guess cooking for others, that means nothing. Who likes cooking for themselves, really? Do you like cooking for yourself, Don? I do actually. Really? Yeah, I'm thrifty and saves a lot of money. Oh that's true. But I mean, like, you know, whenever my wife's on vacation, I just make poached eggs. Like if my kids aren't around, like if I'm alone, it's just like poached eggs. And not
+
+[34:01] even like, you know, maybe it's because my wife doesn't like poached eggs, but I like, I'll sit and like poached eggs. Weird, post eggs, toast, toast on sauerkraut, always. So you just eat push eggs. Toast and sauerkraut. That's it. And weird. I'm a weirdo. forget about it. Okay. Okay. especially for others. We started a small catering outfit. We have done in-home multi-course dinners as a hobby slash side business, interpreting dishes from the books from books like the French laundry, which, by the way, you know, people forget
+
+[34:28] how, like, revolutionary the French laundry cookbook was back when it came out. The original French laundry cookbook, like in in English for America, yeah, the giant one. Yeah. In English for people at home, like they were very in American English anyway, very few books prior to
+
+[34:46] that, that were literally, what was going on in the recipes of, you know, at that time, probably the top kitchen in the entire
+
+[34:55] country and not at all dumbed down. Like you had to get the anchovies. You had the bony anchovies, you had to soak the anchovies and milk. Then you had to, you know, rub the answer. you know what I mean? It's like, and it was all the steps. And so I think people tend to forget, you know, kind of how groundbreaking that was. Anyway, uh, Alinia, uh, also excellent, interesting book, uh, published book, you know,
+
+[35:19] what Grant almost, I guess, self-publishing that or get, or doing it himself and then getting it published, right? I mean, I think he did a lot of, not in the way that, uh, in Mirabold. anyway, whatever. Monest cuisine, everyone knows greatest cookbook achievement of old times. Uh, and others for kosher uh, dinners, uh, who would otherwise, uh, diners who would never otherwise get the chance to try the kinds of foods found in those books in those restaurants.
+
+[35:38] We are still learning, isn't everyone, hopefully, and that's that's so true. If the day you stop learning. hopefully you don't stop learning until you die and hopefully you die only a long time from now. Okay, and love your show. Both of us had questions answered last week. I'm now working during the day managing the kitchen of a different business while attending college at night, which brings me to my current list of questions.
+
+[35:57] Neither of us has the time or money to attend culinary school. Well, I can, to an extent, teach myself to cook better by the very act of cooking more,
+
+[36:05] making mistakes, and trying again. I know that I can never effectively run a busy restaurant kitchen. Is that organization and efficiency taught mostly in school or on the job, what would you recommend I do to build these skills on my own? Well, it's very, well, you can learn to cook on your own, but it's very difficult to build the actual skills of working in a restaurant when you say on your
+
+[36:29] own, literally on your own. Uh, I mean, working in a restaurant can build those skills or going to culinary can build those skills. I mean, I think one of the reasons to go to culinary school. And, you know, uh, Dave Chang, uh, you know, my, my, my business partner is, uh, you know, he's, he's anti-everything. Dave Chang is mainly anti-the idea that a whole young generation of cooks goes to cooking school
+
+[36:52] and uh, I'm paraphrasing him now, but they go to cooking school and then they think that uh, all of a sudden they're going to become a celebrity chef and get rich and then not have to work the hours on the
+
+[37:01] line. And that's not true. And somehow people think that cooking is somehow glamorous when in fact it's grueling. Back me up on this, John. It certainly is. Yeah. So, and this might be interesting for you as well as a professional that, you know, weigh in on this. But I think school can serve a function for someone who is a career changer who just wants, who has the money,
+
+[37:27] right, and just wants to jump in, and your goal isn't to be a line cook for 5 years and then do X, Y, and G.
+
+[37:35] Your goal is to be an owner sooner rather than later and to never spend all that time on the line. Maybe going to cooking school is a good bet for you or as a parent buying, you know, a younger kid, a career.
+
+[37:47] I see it as can be a valuable, uh, valuable thing that way. Now, they, a lot of the chefs that I'm friends with who spend a lot of time saying that you don't need to go to culinary
+
+[37:58] school. The interesting thing about them is that to a person, they've all gone to culinary school. Uh, in, in the generation I'm talking about now, which is, you know, 25, let's say 25 to 42. That age range. Like most of these people who are really successful actually have gone to culinary school. I think in the generation just above them, you have a lot of success stories that haven't, who just came up through normal kind of apprenticeship situation. But really in that age range, most of the high flyers that I know of, they go to culinary school. But, you know, that said, every cook on
+
+[38:31] Earth respects someone who just shows up in a kitchen and says, I will do whatever.
+
+[38:36] I will work as hard as I can. All I want to do is work. I know nothing, you know everything. Let me learn your way. If you do that, walk into a kitchen, very few people will turn you away. Some people might say, I don't have room for you now, but if you use those exact words, they'll say, I have a slot coming up in X amount of months, especially if you come recommended from
+
+[38:54] someone, like you can find someone that will vouch for you that you're a hard worker, and you just show up, but you have to be willing to eat
+
+[39:02] crap. I mean, really, not literally, but, you know, figuratively, you know,
+
+[39:07] you have, right, John, I mean, this is how this works. Grueling. It's... Yeah. Long hours on your feet and takes endurance. Yeah, and you know, yeah, you know, those Brussels sprouts, after the 1st couple of cases, it's not fun anymore, right? And you still have to do them, right? I mean, and so anyway, so yes, you can learn, you can learn to be one of the world's greatest cooks, you know, on your own through reading,
+
+[39:36] and, you know, but in terms of working in a restaurant, I think culinary school or actual working in a restaurant is, you know, kind of kind of necessary.
+
+[39:44] It's a different skill. Cooking and running a kitchen and a crew aren't necessarily the same skill. They're intertwined, but they're not the same skill. I mean, I know plenty of people who are great cooks. Like, I don't want to run a kitchen. I can't run a kitchen. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think I'm a good cook. I don't think I'm necessarily be great at running a kitchen. You know what I mean? Okay. Uh, 2nd question, for you or any chefs who might be listening or in fact sitting sitting with us right now. Have you or would think what I said before makes sense? Okay. Have you or anyone you know, ever worked in a kitchen that wasn't up to your own personal standards, but felt stuck there due to a lack of better options? As an example, I work somewhere that advertised fresh fish and pasta, but sold 4 day old fish and cooked their pasta in lukewarm water. How does one put up with that kind of frustration and is it a common occurrence? Yeah, people are bad. Cooks are bad. Most people are bad at what they do. The better you get at whatever you do in life. whatever you do in life. I don't care what it is, whether you're scientist, writer, jockey, whatever. Like, it turns out that most people, no matter what they choose to do at a profession, are bad at
+
+[40:51] it, because they don't care. It's just because they don't care. And so there's a lot of people who are very bad, uh, very bad cooks and they they do very bad things to the food or just not as good at things to the food. So I don't know how to deal with that frustration. If the person, if you're learning something valuable, then learn what's valuable and don't get poisoned by the other bad things that are going
+
+[41:09] on, be my suggestion. If it's so bad that you feel that you can't in good conscience, serve the food that you're working on to people, you have to leave. What do you think, John? I agree with that I mean, it's tough, right? I mean, a lot of bad cooking goes on, a lot of things that you disagree with. You got to be true to yourself and your own standards. And if the restaurant doesn't meet it. it's time to move on Right. If you're no longer proud of what you're working on. You have to go. You know what I mean? So, I mean, there's a fine line. And I think what I'm reading into what you're saying is that maybe you made a commitment to a place or to a person or to yourself that you were going to hold
+
+[41:46] on to a job for a particular length of time. Uh, and that's also important. It's important to hold to those commitments in life and to people that you're working with so that you can prove that you can have stick tutorness and not be flighty. So it can be a difficult decision to make. So it's not something to quit a job isn't necessarily to be taken lightly. especially in this business. Someone who flits around a lot is not seen as being reliable, you know, if they know your complete work
+
+[42:13] history. And if you're moving around, if you have a different job every, every, you know, every month, people are going, well, why can't, why don't you want to stay in one place? What going on here? You know what I mean? The exception being some of the very, very high-end restaurants that nowadays, it's popular for people to go around at the very high-end restaurants and collect dodges in them so that they can say they've worked in them. And that's a separate thing, and I think everyone knows and kind of respect what's going on there. But if you're not holding down the same job for more than a month in a row, people are going to start asking you why. And so you have to weigh in your heart whether or not the commitment you made either to that restaurant or to yourself is, you know, weigh it against the fact that you're not proud of what you're putting out there. And if you're not proud of what you're putting out there, figure out a way to get out of it as fast and as cleanly as possible, I
+
+[42:57] think. But you should always be proud of what you're working on or, you know, because all you have is your all you have is your output. You know, all you have is what you do and trying to do the best job that you can do at all times. That's all you have. What else is there? Uh, okay. Finally, and thanks for letting me take up so much of your time. Is there any good way to keep leftover fried chicken crispy, assuming fried temperatures are all spot on, and as much oil as possible is removed post-fry? Would silica packs work to absorb excess moisture or does the
+
+[43:26] coating become soggy, not due to moisture in the air, but from oil seeping out of the meat back into the crust? And thanks for being a great resource and for your time. Okay. It's not the oil. It's moisture. So there's a number of things. First of all, the question is, when you say keeping fried chicken, I'm assuming that you don't mean putting fried chicken in the fridge and then taking the fried chicken out later. I'm assuming hot holding fried chicken after frying for service in a catering environment. That's what I'm that's what I'm taking it because there is no way that I know of to short of under frying and then refrying for service a cold
+
+[44:03] thing and it's still never 100%. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to assume that you don't mean a reheat off of something is done, right? So that's a separate question and we could talk about that later if you write back and that's what you're interested in. Hot holding fried chicken. Your enemy isn't oil. I mean, initially your enemy is oil, but the way the oil uptake works in frying is this. You fry something, and the oil is primarily on the outside, although there is some seepage into the
+
+[44:29] crust, even initially, and that seepage is related to a number of things, the temperature of your frying, the temperature of the batter when it went in, how porous the batter
+
+[44:38] is, and what the batter is made of, and whether you have any barriers in there like methyl cell, but no one hardly ever does, or crisp coat or some other starts. Anyway, there's number of factors. But most of the oil that's absorbed by the product is actually absorbed when you pull it
+
+[44:49] out. And what happens is, is that as you're frying, you're seeing boiling water and the boiling water is rushing out, forming the steam and the violent bubbling that you see in frying, which is why a high temperature is
+
+[45:00] important so that you're constantly having boiling happen during the thing. That boiling out of water forms voids, steam, and air pockets in your crust, and in the surface of your food, right? And as the food cools down. Oil is absorbed into those voids as the steam vapor contracts, turns back to moisture, and there's these voids, the oil is absorbed in. So your opportunity to get oil off the surface of the food is only during the portion where the food is coming right out of the oil and when it's hot, which is why good fry practice is to pull the baskets out of the fryer, let them drip just so you don't spray oil everywhere, and then give it those violent couple of clack, clack,
+
+[45:42] clack, or not violent. don't want to hurt the product. But whatever the product can withstand, You give it some, some, some pan. I'm doing that saute motion, you know, that like, that flipping motion, not flipping. It's hard for me to describe, but you shake the basket a bit and you tilt the basket up on its corner so that all the grease comes out and all drips off
+
+[45:59] that thing in the basket. Yeah, you know, get it. sometimes you can get it in the air. Depends on how fragile the product is, and get that oil off right away because as soon as it starts cooling down, you've lost your opportunity.
+
+[46:09] So that's where oil absorption works in. But crust sogginess isn't greasiness is due to having excess grease in the in the batter. And as it cools, you'll notice the greasiness becomes more apparent, right? It's not that they're right there that the crust is changing. It's that greasiness becomes more apparent as it cools, especially when things get actually
+
+[46:29] cold and you've used a hydrogenated fat, a solid fat, you'll get greasy mouth feel in what
+
+[46:34] you're in what you're eating. This is necessary for foods like donuts. So a hot donut fried in regular oil is going to taste good because all hot donuts taste good. All hot fried things taste good. Even bad hot fried things taste okay when they're hot. But as it cools, a donut fried in liquid fat will taste greasy, whereas a donut fried in hydrogenated fat will taste like a donut, because it's supposed to be a little solid like that.
+
+[46:57] Whereas a potato chip fried in a solid fat will taste, like, kind of
+
+[47:02] slick waxy in a bad way, if you, if you fry it in a, and it cools down, right? Which is why they had problems with alestra, because in order to get alestra to not run through your system and out onto your underwear without any intervention, they had to use hydrogenated
+
+[47:16] alestra on potato chips. This is a wow, by the way, for those of you that don't remember Elestra. And when they did that, they altered the mouth feel of the potato chips. That was the reason people could taste the difference in alestro potato chips, not because alestro itself had a bad taste. So back to your problem. So when something cools down or is held for a long time, oil can become a problem that way. Also, it's easier to detect flawed oil when the stuff starts cooling down a little
+
+[47:39] bit or when it's been sitting around. The best test for flawed oil and that when you're frying is to always keep a cube of bread near where you're working and periodically fry a piece of plain white, like
+
+[47:52] airy, non-crusty bread, flavorless bread in the oil. Why? Because the bread's going to cool off fast, you can eat it fast. Bread's gonna absorb a boatload of oil, and you will be tasting primarily the state of your oil at any given time.
+
+[48:06] So you should always, like when you're using a fryer or anything, and you have any questions,
+
+[48:11] dipping your finger and tasting the oil, if it's cold, is fine, but it, a really good test is frying a piece of bread in it. Okay. Now, uh, so the real enemy to a crust on hot on hot holding is moisture migration from the food into the crust, especially if you're packing things closely
+
+[48:28] together. You're going to basically re-steam the crust. The crust is going to lose its crispness and that's where you're going to get a lot of your losses. If you want to get around that, especially in a catering environment, I recommend you move to a piece of technology called a CVAP oven. Even though all of my friends at CVAP have since moved on to other things, because Winston, the owner of the company, who's the guy who was friends with Colonel Sanders and invented the pressure
+
+[48:50] fryer and invented the hot holder for Kentucky fried chicken. Literally, this is a piece of equipment, the CVAP oven, and the CVAP holding oven that was invented for your problem to keep fried chicken crispy. What it does is, is it has a Bane Marie in the bottom of it that supplies a certain amount of moisture, and then it has a heating element in the cavity, and by adjusting the temperature differential between the heating element and the cavity, and the
+
+[49:13] Bane Marie, they can adjust the humidity of the oven, and they can, what they say is they adjust the, I'm making quote marks with my
+
+[49:20] fingers. The crispiness level of the food. And although it sounds hokey, and to reading his documents online, it does sound hokey, crap works. I've seen it many times. I've seen them hold Kentucky fried chicken in it for hours on end without bringing the inside horribly
+
+[49:35] overcooked and without losing the surface of it. I've seen them hold crispy fried tortilla chips in it just as a demo to prove that they could do it. So CVAP oven is your way to go on that. I don't know if their patents have run out. Otherwise, I would think of a way to hack one on my own, but they're relatively inexpensive compared to something like a combi oven.
+
+[49:53] Anyway, I hope that's helpful and they're going to kick me off here, but on the way out, I want to say that the guys at, by the way, you
+
+[50:00] UC USC, right? Use them to Southern California, they're the ones that you always make wisecrats about. Well, someone there in UCLA, they're developing a pill, uh, and you can look this up online that you can take it. And it's a really new, interesting combination of nanotechnology and enzymes where they're packaging multiple enzymes in like a little nanoparticle that you
+
+[50:18] swallow, and it wipes out the alcohol. So it's literally a buzzkill pill. So you can go out drinking, and then before you get in your car, you can pop this buzzkill
+
+[50:28] pill, and it just, it's like having like 5 livers. Anyway, I can't wait. It's going to make it awesome. cooking issues.
+
+[50:44] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[51:20] Goodbye.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com, you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:33] Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookie issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizza. yeah here in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How you doing, Nastasia? Yeah, doing well. Jack and Joe over there. I actually punched myself in the head during the intro. Yes, I'm a little stunned. Wow. Yeah. I was just going to say after 2 cups of coffee, that intro song is even crazier. You only, you're only a 2 cup in the morning, then? I'm only two, yeah. Jesus, man. And you call yourself in New York. See, that's what laid back life here in Brooklyn only requires 2 cups of coffee. You know, Nastasia and I, you know, being residents of the island of Manhattan, we require three. Uh, by the way, speaking of Joel, is he coming in next week or what? Yeah, man, he is. be a blast. So next week. We're going to have live performance of the cooking issue song. Is that true or false? That is true. You know, why don't I read, why don't I read the email he sent us? All right, do that. Let's see. Greetings, Joe, and everyone else. I would like to formally commit to appear live on your program entitled Issues with Cooking on Tuesday, March 5th as a guest musician. My assistant will submit my rider to you soon. It includes a variety of single malt scotches and dried figs. As a plus, you'll be graced with the presence of my wife. I think her and Nastasia will get along nicely due to their joint hatred of most things in existence and obsession with shopping for shoes online. Oh, yeah. And much like Nastasia's admitted during last week's episode, my wife also dislikes my thrash about ways of the long-running musical
+
+[2:38] introduction cooking issues intro, and she would much prefer if I either shut up or play something nice. I look forward to seeing the inside walls of your famous shipping container. Good day to you and enjoy the meats of Heritage Breed. Nice. Nice. Yeah, exciting, huh? Yes, speaking of the meats of heritage, we also have, we have a lot of non-cooking related stuff in the beginning this time, huh? Yeah. Yeah. We have a contest. contest contest. Become a household member of Heritage Radio Network for $120 and get a free t-shirt and the chance to have lunch with Dave and the cooking issues team. Visit heritageradionetwork.org and click donate. Contest ends March first. Is that true? That is true. That's Friday. So that's not a long time. No, this is like a last-minute rush to close out February. Hell, you know, I might I might I might enter the contest. Get a chance to eat lunch with myself. It's pretty good. It's pretty good spot to be in. Yeah, and I was like, I would be there. Oh, but speaking of which, we have, is this your cookbook here, Jack, the
+
+[3:37] Foothills Cuisine of Blackberry Farm? It's not mine, but it's the stations. Because there's a hint on the cover, which is it's almost rap season, people. It's almost ramp season. everyone knows Nastasia loves ramps. hate them. You know why she hates ramps? It's not because they're not delicious because they are It's just because everyone else likes them. That's why she hates them. true. Yeah, nice. All right. Little bit of, I like to have a little bit of nastasio lore in each, in each episode. You know what I mean? Lord. Lord. Lord. Okay, uh, call your questions two. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Have this question in from Mark Barter, about Wonder Flower. Big hide Nastasia, Jack, Joe, and Dave. 116 episodes and still going strong. It's true. Well, kind of. Okay, Dave. You managed to shed some light on the enigmatic oil solidifying catamaro tempura. not enough light. I mean, I wish I could actually get the product here in the United States of America. Anyway, now I got a new mystery for you. Can you enlighten the dear listeners on the secrets of wonder? Uh, you know, but okay, well, I'll read the whole question. I'll try to, maybe I should try to not have tangents when I'm letting things going on. You think so? I don't know. can't. I can't. I can't. I can't do it. anyway. I understand why Wonder is great for making gravies, but why is it supposed to be so good as a fry coating or
+
+[4:53] for making pie pastry? If it's described as a pre-gelatinized or instant wheat flour, does that mean that it is simply a retrograded starch or is it the very opposite, a pro-graded starch? I like pro not program, but like professionally graded. Anyway, uh, because it is a mechanically modified starch rather than a chemically modified starch, could I realistically make my own one drop by taking a low protein cake flour and hydrating, uh, heating it, uh, to which temp, uh, to what temperature, uh, surely you have a, uh, you know, basically
+
+[5:20] saying I have a, a viscal? I can never pronounce it. visco a milligraph in I don't have one. Anyway, drying it after you cook it and pulverizing it is diastatic malt flour, critical component. And finally, I have been able to find a retail equivalent to wonder here in Australia. Should I look instead for an Asian, African, Middle Eastern equivalent? Until next time, Mark Butter. Okay, so for those of you that aren't hip to the wonder,
+
+[5:43] uh, what wonder is, is a, it's a wheat flower, so gluten folks
+
+[5:48] can't, can't, I mean, anti-gluten folks can't use it like Piper. That's so weird. Anyway, what it is, is it's 2 things. It's pre-gelatinized, meaning it's already been cooked, right? But it hasn't just been milled down to a powder. So you can't just use a pre-milled powder. It's also agglomerated, right? So the 2 key things about Wondra is that it is pre-gelatinized and agglomerated. Now, I want you to keep that in your head because we have a collar, I'm going to take the caller's question and then come back to Wandr. Color. You're on the air. Hey, I've got a question about country hams. Oh, I love questions about country hams. Excellent. So I know you're a big fan of country hams uncooked. And I was lucky enough to be in Louisville a week or 2 ago and picked up a ham at Finchville
+
+[6:38] Farms on my way back. First of all, great place. I visited them. Great, great place. Good ham. I'm hoping. It's hanging in my basement and with just 2 people in the house. A big ham is going to last a long time. Yes. So there's a lot of stuff I want to do with it. I want to cook some of it. I want to make broth with some of it. I want to eat some of it raw. My question is, how do I go about taking this large ham and using the different pieces, making different pieces and using them for different things? Right. Okay. So with a, with a country ham. And by the way, even though a Kentucky ham is a Kentucky ham,
+
+[7:18] there are extensions of the culture from Virginia ham. And in fact, a lot of the people who whose families, um, are very old ham cures in places like Kentucky and Tennessee, are actually direct uh, transplants from um, from Virginia. So the culture of Virginia Ham stretches across and is, you know, country hams as we know them, which means that this current phrase I'm about to give to you applies to Kentucky hams as well as to Virginia
+
+[7:43] hams, but the old joke goes that the definition of forever is
+
+[7:47] 2 people in a country ham. Because it lasts so long, and you can use it for such a long time that it almost never, never goes away. I haven't found that to be the case because I eat so much of it whenever I have one in the house. The 1st thing you want to make sure is that you're keeping it properly. So, uh, in the old days, um, Morris Burger, who's
+
+[8:09] from Burger's, uh, smokehouse in Missouri, uh, you know, what they used to do back in, in the days before refrigeration was they would
+
+[8:17] cut, uh, slices of the, uh, of the ham out and then wipe lard over the cut surfaces so they wouldn't lose too much moisture, uh, and they would hang them from thin, um, from thin, like, wires in
+
+[8:29] their, in their, uh, to stop uh, vermin from being able to get down the, like a thick rope to get it. So that's how they used to do it in the old days. Um, But, I mean, typically what people do when they have a country ham nowadays is they'll cut
+
+[8:43] the, um, they'll cut the cushion, which is the, so if you look at a country ham, right? If you look at the face, the face of it, the the part that was actually attached to the pig that's not skin, that part is typically
+
+[8:53] very, very dry. And so unlike a prosciutto, uh, which is designed to have a fairly
+
+[8:59] even, um, salt and dryness level throughout the entire thing of the meat in American country ham. Typically the face is going to be very dry. On the reverse side of the face, you'll have the cushion and the cushion is the kind of thick muscly part. And because of the way country hams are hung in the US, Uh, they tend to be a lot um, thicker and therefore a lot less dry uh, than uh, the rest. So what a lot of people will do is remove the cushion, right, off of
+
+[9:25] the ham, and then slice that one separately for more of your presentation pieces you're eating, you're eating
+
+[9:31] it as a crudo situation. And then you will take the face section and use it for stocks and whatnot. I tend to do very, very little uh, cooking of it because, I mean, it just gets so, it gets so tough and salty when you cook it, but it's
+
+[9:49] amazing, like sliced and put over, over eggs, you know, and then just letting a little bit of heat hit
+
+[9:54] it, or as a substitute for things on pizza thrown in at the end of the, of the cook time, usually on the pizza to just sizzle it up a little bit.
+
+[10:03] Um, I, you know, I, what I used to do. I had a meat slicer. So what I would do is I would bone the thing out whole and then just slice it and enjoy all the all the different portions. But at home, it's very difficult to bone out a country ham. So the way to do it is to take it and to locate where the kind
+
+[10:20] of the joint is in there, right? Saw through that with a hacksaw, if you have a meat saw, that's good. Saw through it with the hacksaw. The backside of it has some meat that can be sliced once you get that little piece out, but there's less and less meat as you get towards the edge of that
+
+[10:33] bone. I would trim off some of that very outside fat. You want to keep the majority of the fat there, but the skin itself sometimes can have a little bit of
+
+[10:40] a funky flavor, and sometimes you can have little areas of taint and uncured stuff running down the bone sections of it.
+
+[10:46] So you want to remove any parts that you don't like, and then the parts in the tail you can use for trim. They can be added to ground hamburger meat, anything like that, or stocks and
+
+[10:54] soups. The face also, because it's so dry stock soups, or like grated sometimes, if you really dry it out. And then the cushion for your more, you know, fancy applications. Once you saw through the ham at that joint, then you
+
+[11:08] can, then you can either cut the cushion off hole or take a knife and debone it. It just takes a while and be careful not to, the only time I've ever broken a knife in my entire life of cooking is on an American country ham.
+
+[11:19] Okay, you, you, so you don't uh, you say you don't uh, cook them, but they recommend if you're going to soaking
+
+[11:29] it. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's just, if you're gonna cook it, the salt level is too high. So you need to get some of the salt out of it and equalize the salt content, especially in the face. So, you know, my grand, well, my grandma used to do in Virginia was she would throw it in a in a pot of water, let it get all, you know,
+
+[11:49] like she would soak it in a couple of changes of water, almost like you would do like bakalao, you know, or break a lot, depending on where you're from.
+
+[11:55] It's not necessary if you're going to, if you're not going to cook it. The issue with the cooking also is the recommendations on an American country hand because of USDA guidelines. Here's what's perverse. American country hams are ready to eat product. You do not need to cook them. However, in terms of safety. However, like our traditions come from England on this, and in England, hams are traditionally cooked, even though our hams are more akin to the hams that you would get in in terms of, you know, in terms of Spain and
+
+[12:26] and uh, parts of France and Italy, uh, in terms of their actual dryness and
+
+[12:31] their uh, their usefulness in that way. And so we tend to cook them, even though they don't need to be cooked. And in the old days, the way you had cooked them is you might soak it for a little while in water, and then you'd stick it in a giant lard can with water, bring the temperature
+
+[12:43] up, and then just let it ride overnight. You wouldn't be, and so the actual inside of the ham wouldn't be cooked to that high of a temperature because it doesn't actually need cooking. They're just softening it and cooking it a little bit. You see what I'm saying? So the recommendations that are on the packages for country hand because they're based on USDA cooking of meats are absurdly high.
+
+[13:01] It is not possible to make a country ham that tastes good following the
+
+[13:06] recommendations that are on the package. The other problem is, is that we're used to eating ham in general sliced extremely thickly. And you don't want a piece of country ham sliced that thick. So if you are going to cook a ham, and cooked hams are good on things like biscuits or fried and put on eggs. You want to slice it extremely, extremely thinly, and country ham is not meant to be, you know, your main source of calories at a meal.
+
+[13:28] Country ham is meant to almost be a seasoning. It a seasoning meat. Do you see what I'm saying? Yep. All right, good. Well, thanks so for calling in, and I always love any sort of country ham questions. Thanks for your answers. Thank you. Or you have another call or call or you're on the air. Hey, we are here. Nice. What's up? So, hi, we're Tom and Tonak in Chicago. Thanks for taking the call. So we have a whole pighead split lengthwise that we want to serve whole. And I have 2 questions. First of all, we want to do it in a circulator and one of the best way to handle a whole pig's head in a circulator. And 2nd of all, I want to smoke half of it, and I want to know how the smoker and the circulator play together. Okay, so how big is the pig's head? Um, it's like an adult pig head. Wow. so big. Can you do you have a vacuum machine capable of bagging it? have access to one. Okay. Yeah, so, I mean, 22 schools of thought about this. If you want it to taste, if you bag it and cook it in a circulator, the meat's
+
+[14:26] going to hold together nicer, which is going to make it easier to do, uh, like a whole prep. The problem is when you cook it in a circulator that way, and you pull it out, usually the skin is going to get a little bit
+
+[14:38] damaged, and so you're going to have, I'm assuming you're going to crisp up one or both sides of it and have the skin side be crispy, right? Or no? Yep, yeah. That is our plan. Yeah, so the issue on a lot of things like pigskin is it gets extremely delicate during the cook
+
+[14:54] process. And so what you're going to be doing is a two-part cook, right? Where you're going to be cooking and gelatinizing the skin and the meat in a low temp
+
+[15:02] cook, and then you're going to be doing a crisp off process. And you just have to be careful that you don't damage the surface of the skin in
+
+[15:10] the in the in the process. I mean, it's why you might want to think of doing, instead of a circulator, if you have access to a combi, you might want to think about doing a combi. But, you know, circular will work fine. You just have to be careful, careful with the skin. As long as you can bag it, you should be all right. The vacuum level is not going to hurt meat in a pig head. I've never done a pig. I never done a head with the bones in it, so I'm not, you're going to draw some of the stuff out of the, of the bones. And I don't know how much void space there is, i.e. how much bag problems you're going to have around things like the teeth, which means you're going to have to put oil into
+
+[15:44] it to take up any spaces that are in the teeth section. This is making sense or no? This is making perfect sense. Yeah. The only other thing that you have to think about now is whether you want it to be more of a traditional low temp
+
+[15:56] cook or whether you want it to taste more poached a la, what you would get in a head cheese, right? And so if you want it to taste more poached, then you're going to have to put some stock in with it instead of oil. It's a totally, a question, if you do it that way, it won't hold together as well as if you do it in oil, which is essentially what I would think of as a dry cooking technique, even though it's in a bag
+
+[16:19] underwater, right? I feel like the poached head cheese thing is the opposite of what I'm going for here. Okay, so then don't liquid in the bag, just oil. And then you'll get more of a dry cook thing. I would unbag the pig's head when it's when it's hot. Uh, and uh, although remember when it's hot, the skin's most delicate, right? Because when you take a pig skin and you cook it, It's extremely delicate because it renders out to gelatin. Then when it gets cold, then it's it's fine. You can work with it because the gelatin resets. So if you, the reason to unbag it hot is to flash off some of the liquid off the surface of it so that it's going to be able to pick up a smoke better, right? But if you're going to have a long time between when you're going to cook it and when you're going to finish it, then you could cool the whole thing down gently, unbag
+
+[16:59] it. Uh, and then I would, I would like kind of bring it up to temp, blow the extra moisture off the surface if you can in like a, in like a low convection, uh, you know, with the door open so that the moisture leaves
+
+[17:11] the, the, the skin section, and then you're going to need to do either a roast off or the, after you blow the moisture off of it, uh, put it
+
+[17:18] in, in your smoker, smoke it up. It should take a smoke fine after it's been cooked so long as it's not wet on the surface. Okay, so in general, this is like one of my big questions listening to you for years is, so if I'm going to do it, if I'm going to do a cut of meat and the circulator and in the smoker, I want to circulate first, dry it off, and then put it in the smoker. Huh. I mean, that's just the way I would approach it. But now that you say it, I see no reason why you can't smoke it and then throw it into the bag. I mean, it seems like it would work either way. I mean, the issue, presumably you have a cold smoker, right? Yeah, I mean, the only advantage I can see of smoking it afterwards is you have
+
+[17:55] no, there's no safety issues involved because you've already done the kill step.
+
+[17:59] Um, and if you were going to smoke it hot, then, I mean, it depends on how long you're going to smoke it. If you're going to smoke it only for a little while, pick up a little bit of flavor, you're not going to get like a huge
+
+[18:10] cookthrough on it. It's not going to be a problem. But, you know, on the other hand, if you're looking for the opposite of a poached flavor, you're going to want to evacuate some of that moisture off of the surface of the meat anyway, in which
+
+[18:21] case, I think it might be advantageous to do the drying after it's been a little bit of drying after it's been cooked, along with the smoke process. You know what I mean? And then, and so you're going to smoke it, then crisp it. Oh, we lost him. No, you didn't. We're still here Oh, okay, you're going to smoke it and then crisp it or no? Yeah I think that's the plan. Yeah, I mean, look, you could do it either way, and I'm also assuming that you're going to do a pig's head at a relatively elevated temperature compared to
+
+[18:47] normal low temperature cooking. Yeah, yeah. Well, now, how high would you do a big set at? Well, it depends. I mean, so like, for instance, it depends on how traditional you want it to taste. Do you know what I'm saying? So if you want to taste more like a confit, I would do it at traditional confit temperature. When I do duck, for instance, I do duck legs at traditional temperatures just in a bag so that I won't require a lot of extra fat and it won't overcook and it won't dry out. Um, so, you know, I do duck legs all the way up at, you know, 80, 82 in that range. You know what I mean? Like a traditional range, simmering ranges. Whereas if you want it to taste a lot, if you want an entirely different result, then you're going to go in the much lower range in the mid 60s, let's say, but it's going to be
+
+[19:33] different result from what people would normally expect from a pig's head. And it's going to take a long time for the skin to totally render to gelatin at
+
+[19:41] those low, low temperatures. Do you know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're saying. That's really helpful. you. Hey, no problem. Hey, send us a Twitter or give a call and tell us how it worked out. will try to do that. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. I have another color? You know what I eat before I take a color? You know what we used to eat all the time? Splits lamb's head. Like roasted in the oven. It's good stuff. Yeah, cup of sale. Anyway, call her, you're on the air. Hey, Daniel from Austin, Texas. I recently bought a Rotovap, Bucci. I think R 110. And I got a dry vacuum that's coming via eBay, but I don't have a
+
+[20:15] controller, and I want to kind of keep my cost down, and I don't know. I recently got modernist cuisine, but they don't really give any guidance as where to get a vacuum controller or what to look for. I know I want something digital, but I really just don't know where to start. Okay, so the vacuum controller that you're, I mean, the vacuum pump you're getting is an Edwards BOC
+
+[20:34] drive-ac or just like a Welsh drive-ac? is it piston? What kind of pump is it? a piston. Okay. So, uh, how good are you at electronics? Uh, I'm I'm okay at it. I mean, I have a BS in chemistry. I took some electronics courses. I kind of mess around with stuff. All right, because they, oh, yeah, there's, there's some good news and some bad news here. By the way, people, we're talking about is rotary evaporators, vacuum distillation,
+
+[21:00] uh, you know, a piece of equipment. It's used in chemistry labs, and increasingly in kitchens, and the premise
+
+[21:07] is that by doing your distillation at under a vacuum, you can reduce the temperature and also reduce any possibility of oxidation of the
+
+[21:15] product. So it allows you to do very gentle distillations with very clean flavors of things like herbs. Okay. Now, the, the, the good news is, well, is this for a restaurant or for your for home? It's for home. Okay. So the good news is, is that you can allow it to be a little bit fidgety, right? If you're doing it at home, especially at the get go, bad news is vacuum controller. So we can get this done. That's not a problem. The bad news is actual built vacuum controllers are ridiculously expensive. That's my experience. I'm looking them on eBay. Yeah, they're they're crazy. The piston pump that you're getting is what, like the Welch, like the wobble tripump? Wait, say again? It's a, I have it in front of me. a fight for vacuum MVP, uh, dry pump. I don't really know much more about it since it hasn't come in the mail yet, frankly. Right. Okay, so is it the easiest, cheapest way to get started?
+
+[22:10] Is so any leak in a vacuum system in a rotary evaporator that happens prior to leaving the condenser unit is completely detrimental to flavor, kills your
+
+[22:22] flavor. But a bleed in the vacuum system, in between the condenser
+
+[22:27] in the vacuum pump is a fine way to regulate your vacuum pressure at the
+
+[22:32] get go. And for years before I had a vacuum controller, I just used a needle valve, like a very small, you know, 8th inch NPT, which is national pipe paper,
+
+[22:41] needle valve that I put onto a T off of my vacuum line. And I just had my vacuum pump going great guns the entire time and I would bleed a small amount of air into the system to regulate the pressure, right? And so as a 1st approximation, the 1st test, right? then that'll get you off the ground running and figuring out distillation and your road of app and all of that stuff for, you know, under 20 bucks,
+
+[23:05] right? Now the next level of, and you should be constantly searching vacuum controllers on eBay, right? The next level above that is you can get yourself a vacuum
+
+[23:17] gauge. And if you get a vacuum gauge, then you can at least tell where your digital vacuum gauge. You can at least tell where your system is sitting at any one point in
+
+[23:27] time. Okay? The next level above that is you could build your own controller, uh, you know, use, if you go to Auburn instruments, they have a lot of the parts to do this for
+
+[23:36] reading, vacuum, and they can be tweaked out in, um, because, that was, that was something I was wondering about. Is it just going to be a gauge plus a feedback loop, essentially? Yeah. Well, there's a couple different ways to do this, right? If you need to, if you're gonna buy, so you have a dry pump, which means it doesn't have any oil. If you have an oil-based pump, the control logic is a little more difficult because you have to worry about switching an oil-based pump off and
+
+[23:59] on because if you switch an oil-based pump off and on without, you know, just keep doing
+
+[24:04] it. You have possibility of backstreaming oil into your system. But because you have a dry pump, that's not an issue. So you can put a, uh, you can just put a valve, like, you know, like a solenoid valve there that's rated for vacuum, uh, and then, uh, you know,
+
+[24:19] a, uh, a vacuum sensor and just put it on a loop and just have, have it go. The problem is, is that the really expensive nice vacuum pumps, uh, and controllers, they
+
+[24:29] have, uh, the motors are controlled, like pulse by pulse. their pulse controlled. And so they can actually slow the motor down towards the end of the vacuum cycle rather than just, you know, going on and off with a set number of millibars of
+
+[24:42] hysteresis, right? Um, you know, so that, you know, so that's what the nicer vacuum control gets you. The really nice vacuum control bases it on the, um, really that no one has because it's only in the bigger systems is, here's the secret is that you want to know what the vacuum level is because it's telling you what the actual boiling point
+
+[25:02] is. The boiling point of your, the, the, sorry, the set point of your water bath and
+
+[25:06] erodo app really has only a marginal amount to do with what the temperature of your product
+
+[25:10] is. In the same way that when you put a flame underneath a pot of water, the flame doesn't have a direct impact, the flame temperature doesn't have a direct impact on what the water temperature
+
+[25:20] is, because it's not going to go above 100, right? Celsius. So your water bath temperature is not an adequate indicator. The only thing that's adequate is the vapor temperature, right? And so you could develop a control. I would put a vacuum gauge on it. But if you really want to be, uh, you know, kind of, you know, ahead of the curve for most people, is I would put a, uh, thermocouple gauge in
+
+[25:40] your, in your, uh, condenser and measure the, the measure when the temperature knee happens between the condensing and non-condensing section and run your vacuum that way.
+
+[25:51] Oh, so that instead of looking at the vapor line on the condenser,
+
+[25:56] it has something that detects it automatically and close the vacuum down to reduce the vapor line? Yeah. Yeah, so when you, yeah, so so I would definitely start with a needle valve to get a handle on how distillation works. And then, uh, but if you, if, you know, if you're used to
+
+[26:10] rotovaps at all, when you put your hand against your back of your hand against the condenser and you go up and down the condenser, you can feel where it goes from warm to cold, right?
+
+[26:19] And that's where you're, and you can visually see it as a condensation line. But you could just measure the temperature between the vapor above the condensation line and below
+
+[26:28] it, and you'll see a sharp break. And so if you just control the vacuum to put that break exactly where you want it on the condenser. You can keep it at saturation for all day long and you don't really care what the vacuum pressure is. So long as it's not wildly higher, wildly low. So I would also have a gauge so that you know where you are. That's genius. Does the thermocouple have to be it can be outside the condenser, I would assume. Uh... Maybe on the condenser without breaking it is what I'm worried about. Yeah. I mean, try it because it's very simple to try it that way. So try it external to it and see whether you can get an accurate enough result. And if not, then try to figure out a way to put it on the inside. Okay, is it is it worth buying a vacuum controller then, do you think? Do you think I should vamp up with these solutions? I mean, look, I love having a vacuum controller, but it's also made me lazy so that I haven't built it the way I want it, which is temperature control, the way I'm telling you. So, yeah, okay. Yeah. Oh, one last thing. If you don't have plastic coated glass, uh, then I would recommend always wearing safety goggles on that thing because it can be, uh, it could be an eye
+
+[27:32] hazard if it implodes or wrapping an electrical tape. Okay. I had one other question. I'm having some problems with the bath that they sent me. It occurred to me that I could just use my sous vide as the water bath.
+
+[27:44] Do you think there's gonna be any problem with that? It's not a problem. It just messier. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like using a regular a regular circulator. I mean, I've done it in a pinch. It's just really messy and the circulator head doesn't really fit nicely with the thing. So the water bath ends up being a convenient way to do it. You know what I'm saying? Uh, because it's built for it. But if you're having problems with the water bat. nothing to stop you from starting by using a circulator. I have done it. Okay. That was very helpful. appreciate it. All right, let us know how it works. All right, and let's go to our 1st commercial break.
+
+[28:44] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and
+
+[29:02] California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. ICC, a supporter of the show, but no longer of me. Boom! What up, dart? Boom. Boom. Okay, so listen, I have not forgotten you. I have not forgotten you. Mark, we are talking about Wondra. Wonderflower. Okay, so if you go back to the beginning section of the show, so Wondra is 2 main things. It is both pre-gelatinized, meaning it's been cooked. And
+
+[29:45] then one day is cooked in a moist environment because trying to cook out a flour in a non moist environment doesn't work the same way. It doesn't do the same stuff. So it's cooked in a moist environment to gelatinize or functionalize, whatever you want to call it, gelatinize. The starch. And then it is milled and then agglomerated. And what agglomeration is, it means that if you look at wonder, you can see it. It looks porous. It looks like I'm trying to think of what it looks like. It looks like, and it looks like little, like, mini pumice stone tiny rocks. agglomerated stuff looks different, right? And what are the benefits of agglomeration? Okay. Well, so the benefits of pre-gelatinizing is, is it will go, it will go into solution in a cold liquid, right? So because it goes into solution in a cold liquid, it doesn't require a lot of heat and moisture together to become functional, which is why in low moisture things like pie crust or like in cakes, it can functionalize very
+
+[30:46] quick. In fact, if you look at if you look at a pie crust under a scanning electron microscope, most of the starch granules haven't actually been cooked out. They're mostly still intact because there's not enough moisture in that recipe to get them to do their
+
+[31:00] thang. So you can, um, which is good because you actually don't want a lot of
+
+[31:05] pressure, but sometimes you want to, like, you know, sometimes you, and I haven't used wonder in it, but the theory being that because you're adding a pre-gelatinized thing, you'll get some extra starch functionality out of it.
+
+[31:15] I guess it's also low protein. So I guess that's helpful. I don't know. In that, in a cake, I read about it to use in cakes. And the idea there is that you don't need to do a lot of mixing to get the starch to perform its functional equivalency so you don't have to overbeat the
+
+[31:29] dough because the stuff's already pre-hydrated, right? Obviously, it's, you know, main use that everyone uses for is making gravies without lumps. And the reason it makes gravy without lumps and also can be added cold, right? is the agglomeration. And normal particles, fine particles have a couple of problems with them. They're dusty, right? There's a lot of dust involved, and that's one of the early reasons that people wanted to use. The one
+
+[31:53] draw was to have stuff around that wasn't dusty. But two, when you agglomerate the particles together, it's very easy for water to infiltrate the particles and break off small, small pieces of this
+
+[32:04] flour and then hydrate. And that is not possible if you just add flour and fine particles because those particles tend to
+
+[32:13] clump as they're trying to go into solution. And as they clump, they form a layer of gummy crap around them. And that layer of gummy crap actually prevents the stuff on the inside from getting wet at
+
+[32:24] all and because it doesn't get wet, it doesn't dissolve. So the agglomeration helps with dissolution, right? And the pre-gelatinized thing means it's already cooked out. So it will thicken stuff when it's cold. That's awesome, but also, normally when you use flour, you have to, what's called cook it out, to get rid of that raw flour taste, and there is no raw flour taste in wonder because it's already been
+
+[32:45] cooked. right? So that's what's going on with the wonder. The question is, how are you going to do that at home? You can't really make wonder at home. You can't. But there are a couple things you can do that you can buy outside of the US of A. One thing is National Starch, National Starch, makes a product called Ultra Spurse, three. And it's a pre-gelatinized, waxy maze starch, right? That is aglomerated. So, uh, see, like, and there's a big thing, like a lot of, I've talked about it on the show a couple of times. Some chefs used to recommend ultra texts, but I always recommend using ultra spurse because ultra text is a pre-gelatinized starch that is not agglomerated, and so it can form
+
+[33:23] lumps, and ultra spurse is a pre-gelatinized starch that is agglomerated, and so will not clump up on you.
+
+[33:31] The only reason to use to not use spurs is spurs is a little more expensive than Tex, but for most home cooks, that's not really an issue. And the other good news is ultra spurse is available on modernistpantry.com and they will ship all over the world. And I don't mind saying that, even though they're no longer a supporter of our chef. I like them. Yeah. All right. Yeah, good people. So yeah, so they will ship that all over the world. Now, if you don't want to do that for some reason, right? You're going to have a tough time making your own pre-gelatinized agglomerated starch, but instead of agglomerating. If you don't mind cooking the product out and you're going to use it in something like gravy, you can separate flour particles using some old school methods. And the one that I'm going to tell you now is Bur money. Burman is where you take butter, which will not, you know, does not, you know, solubilize the flour, right? And you mold butter and flour together into little balls, and then you can stir those balls into your gravy. And because you separated the flour particles with fat, they no longer stick together and as the butter melts, it releases small flour particles into your solution and it tends not to lump up as much. So there you go. Either by ultra spurse 3, which is a very good substitute for things like thickening and can be used in baking applications, or go to something like a
+
+[34:50] Bermanee, if you just want a quick way to thicken a gravy and you can't get your wonder. What do you think, Stas? Good job. Good. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Okay. Ben from San Francisco writes in. This is about his Thanksgiving thing of the jig. Hello, Heritage Radio. Hey. Yeah, Valentine's. What did I say? Thanksgiving. Oh, jeez. My brain fried. Okay. Hey, Joe and the rest. You like that one too? Wow, look at Joe. Yeah. So much love today. I know it, right? It's Ben from San Francisco again. Dave, my apologies for not reporting back on the Valentine's dinner I made for Anjali. Your advice was excellent. Thank you. Andale has forgiven me for listening to your podcast during our vacation. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad. This is what Ben said he did on the Valentine's Day, not on Thanksgiving, correction. I ended up cooking a rack of lamb at 55C for 2 hours, bringing it down to 50C before deep frying. I saw it after unbagging from sous vide, as you and others have suggested, and I got better results than normal. Deep fried lamb fat is a bit funky, but with a side of a ratatoui and harissa yogurt sauce. Everything came out really well. I also did biscuits, biscuit stars. I also did biscuits with apricot preserves, biscuits, and thinly sliced smoked pork jow. Sorry about the biscuits and stuff. Finally, I had to do finally, I tried to do a jackfruit custard sous vide at 83 C, but it didn't set up in the fridge. Turned it into a Jackfruise, Jackfruit Clement, Creme Anglaise. Nice save, Ben. Poured it over lemon vanilla cake, and no one was the wiser. Just a quick note. Jackfruit is awesome. Tastes like juicy fruit gum and looks like a face hugger pod from aliens. Yeah, yeah, I do. and there's 2 there's several main kinds of jacks. Remember Styles, when we cut the jackfruit off the trees in Florida, and no one told us that
+
+[36:26] like you're supposed to like cut it and then let it sit on the ground for a while. And I got the latex all over my shirt and I
+
+[36:31] ruined the shirt and I ruined my knife and I was screaming and cursing because I couldn't get the latex from the jackfruit off of my knife and it was a huge nightmare.
+
+[36:37] Uh, we have uh, I guess what's his name? Campbell, Richard Campbell and Norris Leedsma, is her name? We have their book on jackfruit back in my in my library on jackfruit. Jackfruit, if you never had it, is delicious. I don't like the I mean, the can versions, whatever, okay, but really good 1st introduction to jackfruit for you people. Go to an Asian market and get the jackfruit chips, not the crappy ones, but the nice ones that are all puffy and
+
+[37:01] delicious, and they do have a juicy fruit. No, they're awesome. Anyway, so Ben's question is my question. I'm planning to barbecue pork shoulder and brisket. I understand that to avoid the stall caused by evaporative cooling. I need to wrap the meat with foil when it stops rising in temp. At roughly 155 Fahrenheit. Barbecue joints don't seem to ever wrap their meat, though. What if anything am I losing when I wrap the meat? Are all these famous southern barbecue joints just doing it wrong? Thanks again, Ben. Okay. Well, let me put it. The the proof of the pudding of the southern barbecue joints is, as they say, in the eating. And having eaten in
+
+[37:35] kind in Texas style barbecue with actually Chris Young from modernist cuisine, well, in fact, discussing the stall that you're referring to doing to evaporative cooling, right? We learned one thing. And we learned that that meat is delicious. It's delicious. You can't argue with delicious. You know what I'm saying? Like, so the barbecue joints are not doing it wrong. Similarly in North Carolina. You know, the meats that they're making there are delicious. And so it's not that they're doing it wrong. In Marin's cuisine, they're advocates of stopping the stall by rapping because they're advocates of doing sous vide cooking in general. However, I do not find that sous vide cooking is better or worse. It is different. If you like, uh, so the meat's done in a traditional way are going to be drier in general and going to have a different outside uh, surface texture than you would if you did it sous vide. It will also have a different internal texture because they're going to go to a much higher temperature than they normally would sous vide. And the meat tends to actually have a different structure. So to me, it's not a matter of better. It's not a matter of worse. It's just a matter of different and what you prefer. Yeah? Yes. Color, you're on the air. Hi, it's Brian in San Francisco. How are you guys? Doing well. How you doing? I'm doing swell, thanks. Um, it is citrus season over here, and so I am making gonna try my hand at lemon curd, an orange curd, and grapefruit curd. I have seen some recipes. which, you know, use the traditional eggs, and some add
+
+[39:06] agar to them, and I've seen some that add gelatin to them. And I'm wondering, do I need all those extras and and uh, what do they do or could I do it with just uh, eggs or egg yolk? What do you think? And best technique. Huh. Well, you know, um, Let me see. I haven't made one in a long time. Presumably you're adding the gelatin. I mean, you don't need to add gelatin. right? Or agar. Or Agar. No. Me, look, the reason to add Agar is so that you don't have to use gelatin,
+
+[39:40] right? And Agar has the Agar has a 2nd benefit over gelatin in other than just its vegetarian. It has the benefit that if you're going to have this thing sitting around in a hot climate, right? Then Agar won't melt out on you. Agar is not as good, uh, texture for things like this because it breaks in more of a brittle way, which isn't
+
+[40:06] necessary, which isn't curdy. Do you know what I mean? So if you were going to do a Kurd that was going to be, uh, you know, stirred and then spread, then I would say Agar is a very poor choice. But it would, it would do so, or, you know, you could make a fluid gel, for that matter, out of it. Then you wouldn't set it without however much egg yolk you want. Um, So, I mean, the Agar, I've never, I've never done, but it seems, seems like it would, it would work. I don't I don't think they're necessary. It's more like insurance, right? wouldn't you think so? Hello? Yeah, definitely. Just in case. Like, for instance, the one from modernist cuisine doesn't use anything but egg yolk. Right. That seems to me to make sense. That sucker work. Okay. Uh, so you think skip the skip the jaws and skip the agar, just go with the egg yolk. I mean, modernist cuisine, like the great thing about modernist cuisine, and I haven't looked at their custard section in a 1000000 years because, you know, I haven't actually shelled out the money for the book yet, so I only looked at it when I'm hanging out with
+
+[41:01] Chris. Oh, at home? Yeah. And so like they have like these parametric things. They've done a lot of tests on the number of egg yolks required and the temperature required to set various things. And so I think their their research on things like that in particular is probably extremely reliable.
+
+[41:17] Okay, one question is, you know, most of these recipes are for lemon curd. But if I want to go with other kinds of citrus, well, that and I do choose to go with Agar or gelatin, will any of the acidity
+
+[41:31] be an issue? No, the acidity level for something like Agar. I mean, I've done plenty of sets of things like lemony things with Agar and similarly, I've never, things with Agar that have a problem are things like cassis, things with high tannin
+
+[41:48] levels, or things that are extremely acidic, but you're not likely to eat something that is so acid that the Agar is not going to set as a result.
+
+[41:55] So I think you're going to be, you're going to be okay. Um, you know, the only issue is, is that you might add less sugar to something that's not as
+
+[42:05] tart and so then your texture is going to get changed by the fact that your sugar ratio is changed. Does that make sense? So if you're going to do it from a different citrus. I mean, I think the main thing is going to be, your acid sugar balance has to come in, and then your sugar level has to be the same, or the texture won't be the same. So the sugar level impacts the agar? No, the sugar well, sugar level will impact Agar because you're impacting how much water there is available to the
+
+[42:30] Agar to set, but sugar level will also affect egg yolk proteins if you're setting it that way.
+
+[42:36] So I don't know whether the modernist cuisine has, I mean, a specific sugar ratio for the egg yolk that they talk about, but I know that different sugar ratios affect the setting temperature and the finish strength of egg protein gels.
+
+[42:49] Yeah, they say here, uh, when they scale it, it's 30% yokes, 75% sugar. Right. Sounds right. Yeah. So you want to stay in similar ranges. Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much. I think I'll try it. the old-fashioned way first. Nice. Well, tweet us out and tell us what happened. Okay, great. Thanks. Have a good day. All right, thanks. Oh, by the way, Ben also, at the end, said PS, still waiting for the Kickstarter project to be announced. Listen, here's what's going on, Ben, and anyone else who cares. A Kickstarter project. The reason we can't talk about it is our lawyer, our patent lawyer, is not allowing us to say a darn thing about what we're doing until he files the patent, but it's supposed to be filed this week.
+
+[43:33] So if all goes well. I should be able to say what it is next week, right? Right. That looks really good. Nastasia now talking about something you can't see. That's typical Nastasia style. Somebody is eating some sort of what looks like a low temperature cooked piece of beef out in the audience. Okay. I'm going to have to blast through this. Colin Orson writes it about ice cream. Nastasia, Jack, and Joe due to health reasons, my mother cannot have dairy. This wouldn't be that much of a problem for her. If it weren't for ice cream. She's been buying tofu ice cream for a while, but it's getting tired of it, partly because it only comes in one flavor. There used to be a whole bunch of different flavors of tofu ice cream. You ever had that stuff? And the statue's like, why would I do that? I eat dairy. Okay. Partly because it only comes in one flavor. Any ideas for creating a dairy-free ice cream base? I've heard of people subbing out coconut milk for dairy milk, but she doesn't care for coconut that much, and I'd be worried about the
+
+[44:20] texture, since coconut milk has less fat, 4.25% compared to most ice cream bases 10 to 20%. I've been thinking about making a fake milk with emulsified oil and water. Any input. What oil should I use? Neither have similar fatty acid makeup to milk fat. I don't have any emulsifiers or hydrocoloids at the moment, but I'm planning on getting some stuff from modernist pantry anyway.
+
+[44:38] Although also I have no Vitaprep, though I do have a blender. So that's out of the question for the time being. Thanks, Colin Arnison. Okay, look, one thing. Okay, so I know that your mom doesn't like coconut, but I'm just going to talk about coconut for a minute anyway. First of all, numbers on the coconut milk that you have for the coconut milk that I use are not the same. Coconut, the coconut milk. And this morning I took a can of coconut milk, Goya coconut milk out of the back of my out of my pantry and looked at it. And the stuff that I have is running it like 16% fat. So the coconut milk that I have runs between like 15 and 17 in that range percent fat. And so is actually useful for doing ice creams. What I typically do when I'm doing ice creams is a mixture of coconut, milk and coconut cream or cream of coconut, a.k.a.
+
+[45:29] Coco Lopez, no relation to nastasia. Uh, and then, uh, but I know your, I know your mom doesn't like it. Anyway, so let's break down an ice, let's break down an ice cream recipe real quick, all right? So my my ice cream recipe is 500 mils of cream with roughly 36%
+
+[45:45] fat, 36.6. 10 egg yolks, also roughly like 26% fat, and 500 mils of milk at like, you know,
+
+[45:53] 3.5 or, you know, 4% fat, 170 grams of sugar. And what that recipe makes out to by weight is 18%,
+
+[46:02] 18.5% fat by weight, and about 12.5% sugar by weight. All right? So what you need to do when you want to come up with a recipe is just balance out those numbers. Now, the reason why everyone uses coconut milk and coconut
+
+[46:15] fats for ice cream recipes is because coconut milk and coconut, the fat from coconuts has a very similar melting profile to butter fat.
+
+[46:25] So it's solid when it's cold, and it melts by the time it's at body temperature. And that profile is very good for ice creams, right? And that's why they do it. You might want to consider looking at a little article uh, done
+
+[46:37] by, um, uh, the American PalmOil.com. They have an article on using palm oil. And, you know, not the liquids stuff, but the more solid stuff. And you could go get that article or just get palm
+
+[46:53] oil and just use that, maybe, and emulsified. And the other advantage with using it in, it's already in coconut cream or creamed coconut is that it's already done for you.
+
+[47:03] In fact, if you buy Coco Lopez. It's got all kinds of stabilizers in it already. Uh, so that you can, I just like saying Coco Lupes. But you can buy all kinds of stabilizers. Just add up, you know, for your for your information. Coconut cream, which is the Asian stuff that not a lot of people buy here, is 26% fat with no sugar on average. I looked at some labels on the internets. Egg yolks are 26% fat. Cream of coconut, which is Coco Lopez is 13% fat and also 56 bricks, meaning very high in sugar. Coconut milk is 15 to 17% fat. So something that, and what I did is I just entered all this stuff into an Excel spreadsheet and then came up with some numbers. So if you did, if you did 11 egg yolks, 280 grams of coconut cream,
+
+[47:46] the Coco Lopez, and 730, you know, grams of coconut milk, you'd come out with very similar numbers to regular ice cream in terms of fat and
+
+[47:55] sugar. But if you don't want to use coconut, you could try using, I mean, it's hard. I mean, coconut milk is really good. I've used peanut butter and ice creams as a partial substitution for some of it. But remember when you move away from using any sort of dairy, you're also going to have to not just replace the
+
+[48:09] fat, you're going to have to replace the dairy proteins because they're also functional. So you're going to have to move to something like a soy protein or soy protein isolate or something that's
+
+[48:17] high-end protein that could provide some of the effect of the non-fat milk solids. Sorry, I couldn't mean more help on that, but I'll try to think of some formulations, have someone else send some stuff
+
+[48:27] back. The other advantage of using coconut milk and coconut cream is that you don't have to use a blender because
+
+[48:32] the stuff's already been made into a nice texture for you. But I got to think of some non-conut because I make coconut stuff all the time, actually, and for ice cream at home because I have some people who don't want to eat the dairy sometimes. So I always have in my freezer some base that's made from coconut milk and coconut cream. And it doesn't really taste coconutty. If you put a whole boatload of chocolate into it. I found. Okay, so listen, I'm going to get kicked off the air in a second. But Alvin Schultz, you had a question about savory pop rocks. I don't have time to talk about it this week, but you can buy savory pop rocks. Just blank pop rocks online. I believe it's Chef Rubber. will look it up for next time. Jason Monari wrote in about cooked meats. He says you always mention your oven gets up to 800 degrees plus. What residential oven does that or did you hack it? I hacked it. I put 2 separate extra heating elements into my oven that are controlled with an external PID
+
+[49:23] controller and embedded in a refractory cement. So I like everything else I hacked it. Um, no residential oven does that except for on the self clean. Some people out there have hacked their self-clean cycle, but I'm not going to recommend you
+
+[49:36] do that because I don't want you to burn your house down, but it's definitely hacked and it wasn't a residential oven to begin with. It was a garland with a, and it's, it was, it's a gas electric hybrid that I've tweaked out to do pizza. Okay, also, Joseph W. wrote in Dear Jack, Joe, and the rest, Nastasia, question about broth. Thinking ramen in particular. Would it be possible to make a broth with unrendered lard instead of our in place of some of the bones, then cooling the broth and removing the fat layer? In this scenario, all I care about is flavor. Don't care about the clarity or any other issues. Thank you. Okay, if you like the flavor of lard, you can include it. I do not think you're going to get enough, enough collagen out of just the lard without the skin, to have the effect you want in the broth to get the mouth feel right, right? So if you happen to like the flavor of just like rendered lard, then you could put it in there. I'll tell you this though. having done like pork skin cookoffs for doing chirones. The smell of just pork skins, cooking alone in water is not pleasant, right, Stas? Yeah. Or, no, beaver skin, much less pleasant. Although I kind of like it. It's very woodsy. But anyway, so just be careful of that. If you include skins, then you're going to have enough stuff in there, but you're not going to get any meaty flavor from it. You're just going to get that fat lard and skin flavor. Yeah, that gelat knee flavor. Okay. Philip Watson. Dinner party menu crisis, making reverse verified mint jewel at the start, but what app to follow? Some form of pig, help. Do pork belly? Do pork belly, do cook it low temp, press it after it's done. Uh, let the air dry a little bit, slow render the skin till it's crispy, cut it in
+
+[51:03] little slices, make some sort of nice sauce, cut into cubes. Everyone likes that. All right, so they're going to kick me. really going to kick me off the air in 2 seconds, but listen, I read the article in the New York Times magazine called The Extraordinary Science of Addictive Drunk Food by Michael Moss. I was extremely disappointed at the way that article presented things, and we're going to have to talk more about it in general. This guy won a Pulitzer Prize, but this is not, I don't think, Pulitzer Prize winning work that's being done here. I think it's very one-sided, very biased, and also mis misrepresents a lot of the actual science that's going on and cherry picks the science about what's going on with salt and with sugar and with
+
+[51:43] fat. I think misrepresents kind of not necessarily the cause of why we're having so many health issues here, but definitely provides
+
+[51:51] A, no solutions. And B puts all the blame on marketing strategies of companies instead of on the larger issues that are going on.
+
+[52:00] And I'm going to talk more about it, hopefully next time. I'd like to get some comments in from people. I also hope that the museum of food and drink, and we haven't talked about it before, details to follow. I want to do a show where, you know, with the museum where we're moderating and I want to get hardcore real scientists and food policy experts on the air in real reason debate, not one-sided junk that's all either from an industry perspective or all either from an anti-industry
+
+[52:28] perspective. I'm sick of the way this stuff is portrayed in the media. I'm sick of the way this stuff is portrayed in general. And what we need is something like hardball. you know, political hardball. We need like with Chris Matthews, we need something like that for what's going on in the in the food in food. And it doesn't exist yet. Hopefully we can do something like that here on this network details to follow cooking issues.
+
+[53:06] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by Rolling Press, a family-run eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit rolling press.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:24] Cooking issues! Go.
+
+[0:35] We're all so cure, Creas, cooks at heart. We've got some questions, but don't know query starts. Dame Nastasias to Jack and Joe, too. They're all here
+
+[0:54] now. To listen and help us through. Call Shed your questions too. 7 quarter, 497, 2128 to get your cookie. He's all fine. Dave and Crew. So, call on Shin With your cooking issues. Every Tuesday. At noon. And that was Joe Gargano, where the cooking issues theme song live, coming to you in the back of Roberta
+
+[2:01] Street, and Bush with Brooklyn. Hey Joel, thanks for coming by. How you doing? Thanks for having me. Yeah, no problem here. Pull that mic over there. We're also joined with America. Hello. Hi. She doesn't have a mic yet. She will in a second. Disappointed where Joel's mouth used to be pointed. And as usual, joined with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the engineering booth. No, Joe. No, Joe. Joe's on tour, man. On tour? South by Southwest. Yeah, he's on the road with the big ups. Yeah? Yeah. Doing his front man routine? Rock star life. Where's he going to tour? Where's he going to go? He'll be in Austin doing a few shows down there. And I think a few shows on the way to Austin. So there's something like 8 shows in 15 days. What's the big venue nowadays between here and Austin? Oh man, I don't know. You're asking the wrong guy. No? I have no idea. Anyway, good luck to Joe. Go out and see Joe. That was great, Joel. Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. And this was the long-awaited live performance of the cooking issues theme here on the air. So, in case you weren't paying attention to the theme song. Call New Questions Live 2, 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Got a lot of crap to go through. Oh, by the way, where are you guys hailing from? People don't already know. New Haven, Connecticut, is where I work. from Clinton, though, so the southern shoreline of Connecticut. Yep, back when I was there, there was an awesome song by a Connecticut band called Gravel Pit called Going
+
+[3:22] back to Southern Connecticut. I't know if you remember that song. Yeah, from the early 90s back when I was up in New Haven Way. What you guys doing in New Haven? So I'm a corporate chef. So I have a corporate cafeteria that I run. But I most of my experiences in fine dining, so I sort of take that and move it to serve people lunch of this company that I work for called Hire
+
+[3:42] one. They seem to really like it. I got a decent budget to work with, great people, great staff. And I just take a big interest in sort of the modernist movement and doing everything in house. So I run a full bread program there. I run a charcuterie program. And we serve this to people on blue plastic trays and it's kind of funny. Nice, nice. I haven't been up to New Haven a while. Nastasia's sister up there at the Yale at this very moment. All right, let's get cracking. We got a lot of crap. Oh, before we're announcing what the Kickstarter is today, we haven't we haven't filmed it yet, but as of last week, I guess Friday, right? We have our patent pending. Is that true, Stas? was Friday. So I have my 1st patent pending. And so now I can tell you guys what it is we're working on. Here's what it is. Anyone who's listening to me knows that I have issues with the use of torches in the
+
+[4:29] kitchen because when you, what happens is I always find that they make what I call a torch taste and that you can tell the flavor of something if it's been torched.
+
+[4:38] The other problem with torches is that they tend to burn one spot if you're not very careful, so you have to back way back on them. It's very difficult to control because you have a very hot kind of point heat source that's blasting very fast. You can also move stuff around. The torch gases are moving so fast. Now, for years, years, we've all thought that what was going on was an improperly mixed
+
+[5:01] flame, right? Or incomplete combustion of the propane or butane. And so there was a lot of arguments back and forth on, well, it's the, it's the gas, right? So that's why some people are like, well, butane tastes better than propane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or that
+
+[5:17] somehow if you can complete the combustion of what I, if fact, what I used to think it was, was they put, um,
+
+[5:22] stink stinkophints. I don't know what they're called. Odorants. There you go, into gases so that you could tell if there's a gas leak. Typically, uh, uh, sulfur containing things, mer captains that you can smell in very small concentrations. So I always thought it was some sort of residue of that that hadn't been fully combusted. Anyways, uh, turns out, uh, none of that's the case. We sent some products, including the new thing that we're making over to Ariel, UC Davis, our good friend, who did some GC mass spec work on meats cooked in a pan, meats cooked with a regular
+
+[5:53] torch, and meats cooked with our new attachment. Right? Now, what our new attachment does is it arrests the flame, right, allows for complete
+
+[6:02] combustion, but also spreads it out and turns it into mainly radiant energy.
+
+[6:07] So what it is, it's a cone that fits over your torch and has 2 screens on
+
+[6:13] it, and those 2 screens convert the majority of the heat of the torch into radiant energy and stops
+
+[6:20] it from being a direct hardcore blasting flame onto your thing. And also spreads it out evenly so that you have a 3 inch circle of glowing red, like,
+
+[6:29] right, it's stars. It's like crazy glowing red. And the other thing about it with it, because the screen is such a light thermal mass, unlike other radiant things like salamanders, it take a long time to heat up, this suckers at full blast in like a couple of seconds. Not, everyone says, oh, man, man, salamander, instant on, bull crap. You light up a salamander. It's many minutes until it's raging at full speed. Yeah, you can start cooking with it pretty quickly, but this sucker, instant on. Anyways, so she did a test of pan cooking, torch
+
+[6:55] cooking, and the new attachment that we're making. And it turns out that what's happening with the propane isn't uncombusted fuel. It's that the super high heat, high intensity, direct flame on that torch is creating new combustion flavors on the meat that are undesirable and
+
+[7:15] taste fuely. And we have the data, and when we do the Kickstarter, you know, in, in like a, we'll probably do the Kickstarter, what, like a month or something, does? What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. Anyway, so like we'll show the diagram, she did the taste diagram, and there's kind of a good half and a bad half. Our half is, it doesn't taste the same as pan, but we haven't done test versus grilling, which is what we think it's more
+
+[7:37] like, or like straight broiling. But we're on the good half of the taste thing, and the torch cooking by itself is on the bad half due to these other newly created cooking byproducts. Anyhoo, so we have one problem left with this attachment. And it'll fit on, we're making it right now to fit on the 3 most common torches that you have in kitchens. But the one problem we have. We don't have a name for it yet. Right, Stars? Yeah, we sort of, we've thrown around many, many. Yeah, but no one likes, no, we don't like it. We all like different names. Yeah, well, Nastasia likes... Okay, well, Nastasia likes, which is absurd because too freaking long for a name. The all searing eye, because it looks like... That's not my, that goes to Piper. Piper came up with a name. No, he didn't. Oh really? No, you just like it best. Yeah, he came up with a name and I came up with that. I came up with that. Anyway, I mean, like, I'm glad to give Piper his ups. You know, I love myself in Piper, but it's an absurd name for the product because it's too long. Hey, could someone go get the all searing eye? No, it's not going to happen. And in the kitchen. won't happen. So then I was like, hey, because I love saws alls, because who doesn't love a saws all? Anyone out there that doesn't love a sawsaw can come and have a discussion with me privately. Saws alls are amazing. And what do they saw? Do they saw some things, Joel? Everything saw us all. So I was like, well, what about Sears all? Sears all. But and everyone's like, it sounds like Sears Roebuck. I't want to buy it because it sounds like Sears Roebuck. So I got some some some blowback on that. You can't use anything with the word dragon in it because it's already a torch company that uses the word dragon. Uh, it's got to be something, um, it's got to be something, I don't know,
+
+[9:07] that, that's easy to trademark. We like, I liked, uh, we like some version of Sally, like Sally, but
+
+[9:13] like Piper, this is Piper's, Sally Hander. But it's another silly name. That was Mark's. That was March. I know, it sounds not family friendly, right? Yeah, Sally Hander. Sally Hander, right. Here's why I like Sally, though. I like Sally. I liked Sally. What did I like? I like Sally Maddock, but no one likes that because Dak's like Sally Maddock. But the reason people don't like people don't like the silly names. Why I like Sally is it sounds friendly, and it sounds like something you might say, Sally, instead of Sally, but in
+
+[9:40] a, in a, what's it called? when I'm bowing to pressure from Nastasia, we're going to probably put the letters ASE for all steering eye after
+
+[9:46] this because we're patenting the whole tech. We're pat... Oh, yeah, and we should base our... No, I mean it's great. All right, all right. So anyway, so we'll probably put the letters ASE afterwards, because this is the
+
+[9:58] all-steering eye version, and we might have a tabletop version, it's not. So here's the here's the cooking issues contest of the next week because we need to get this thing straightened
+
+[10:05] out. We're working on it, so we might not use any suggestions. However, if we get a suggestion that we use, you will get a free version of whatever
+
+[10:13] the hell this thing is called, that where you're trying to help us to name, uh, without having to invest money in the Kickstarter, right? Fair. And in due consideration for the use of name and our ability to use it in all perpetuity. Yeah, right? That's a good contest, yes. Speaking of contests, I have to give a shout out to Cole Miles, who became a member of
+
+[10:33] Heritage Radio, I have through cooking issues. So thanks, Co. Nice. Nice. Is he the winner of that other contest, it's over? Yeah, that's the membership drive. Is he coming in from Houston? I don't think so, but if he ever gets here, he says he'll come. He's an interesting dude. I don't know how much he wants me to tell you about himself on the air, but I met him at
+
+[10:51] a, what's it called? What do we call those things? Sous vide, sous vide, low temperature class, and interesting dude. Uh, interesting history. Okay, so thank you and congratulations for winning. Any questions on the torture attachment? I heard, Joel? No, I mean, that sounds actually awesome because I've had the problem of obviously use the torch because
+
+[11:09] you want some quick searing on the outside of something. It just tastes gross. Yeah, it's gross. This one. Okay, so here's the deal, right? The main problem is, is that when you're, when, when, the reason I 1st started working on this is that, is, is, I'm interested in finishing low temperature meats. And a regular salamander, right? It doesn't have the, doesn't have the, whatever the polite, it doesn't have the oomph. you go. That a polite way, say it. doesn't have the oomph. There's a call, Dave, if you want to. Oh, yeah, what I was saying. To finish a low temperature meat. And so, uh, this does because you can get extremely close to the service of the meat, or you can pull back with almost no burn. But then it has a lot of ancillary things. Like if you roast a chicken and, uh, you know, and it's not quite done at certain points, you can hit it without it getting on that. Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, if you're doing burgers and you don't want to you don't want to steam your burger, you can just throw the cheese on top and then melt the cheese out directly with this thing almost instantly without having to like either throw it in a salamander
+
+[11:59] or or cover it so that this burger is steaming. you know, useful, like, uh, to help to finish off little parts of the area of a grill when you're not working right.
+
+[12:07] stuff. It's just useful to have around. It pops off and on your torch. anyway, we're looking forward to it. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Dave, Chris from Durham, North Carolina. How are you going? Going all right, going all right. How it doing down there in Durham? Uh, it's pretty rainy, so not great, but uh, pretty decent food scene down here. All am I coming from New York and we can get some pretty good heats down here. Nice. Yeah. Got a quick question for you about, um, polypheno oxidates is an avocado. Yes, problematic, right? Yeah, is there any way to turn that, like, kill them in a circulator without changing the flesh? That's a great question. I was looking at the range. It's like 25 to 35 C is, I think, their optimal thing, but I'm trying to do um, like an avocado roulade without using any kind of acid.
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+[12:51] Right. Uh, I seem to remember somebody testing this out. I've never actually tested it myself. I seem to remember somebody. I mean, obviously the trick is to cook it to a temperature that inactivates the enzymes without rupturing the cells. And I would guess that you'd want to do something in the
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+[13:11] mid to high 50s. Sure. You know what I mean? Maybe like 60 should wipe it out, right? Don't you think? 140? 60? I assume so, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know that you're going to have that much change at 60. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to the other products of respiration in the avocado at that time. But that's a great. I mean, I would give it a shot and see what happens. Just don't peel an avoc. don't vacuum it because you'll smash it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I would just throw avocados into 60 degree water or even 65 I would try. Because I think, uh, Bruno Gousseau, he was trying to inactivate the enzymes in papaya without, without doing anything, uh, to the
+
+[13:52] flesh, and uh, Nils and I tried it, and we hated it because it intensified that diaper smell that papayas have up here, that nasty baby diaper smell that papayas have. that I think they have, but for some reason they don't have in South America, which is why I guess they like them in South America. And have you have anyone here met an American that loves papayas? I hate papayas. Yeah, see? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's because we get crappy ones. In South America, they're legit. Anyway. So, uh, Gousseau, I think, was using 65 degrees, so you might want to try that for, but then the question is, you should use uh, sous vide, um, whatever
+
+[14:24] that, whatever the polyscience sous vide application is for the uh, iPad, just to calculate your time temperature ratios. Now, remember, though, you don't need it to get all the way to the seed. So, you know, take the take the numbers with a grain of salt, right? Because you're only really penetrating the 1st however much that is inch, you know, depending on what kind of avocado. assuming you're using haas or equivalent, not like the domestic pitch. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know how long it's going to take to penetrate,
+
+[14:51] but, you know, the sous vide tool. What the hell is that thing called against CV Toolbox? Dash, dash. There you go. Use that to calculate what your what your time is. And if you try it, please tell us what happens so that we know. Yeah, I would love to test it out. It's been a problem for a while and, you know, lime goes great with avocado, but you don't always want to use it. Right. I guess that's true. I guess you don't always want lime, although a lot of times I love myself the lime. But it's an excellent problem. And like, you try it out, and if I can think about it, I mean, I like we swim in avocados in my neighborhood. They're basically free. It's like, it's like cheaper to use avocados and packing peanuts in the lower east side in some places when you buy them,
+
+[15:30] but, uh, but try to give it a shot and if I can remember to do it, I'll try to give it a shot and see what happens. Okay, cool. One more quick question about Dragon's Beard video you did? Whenever I do it, it just sets up like a rock. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. What do you mean, like a rock? Like how much like a rock, like a soft rock or like a hard rock? You can't put a dent into it. Yeah, even when I microwave it, which you mentioned that video. I can't get my finger through it. I don't know what the, if I'm cooking it too long. It a little bit more yellow than yours, and I don't know if it's just going too high,
+
+[15:59] but I mean, my probe says it's going to 133. I think is what you said. Well, I think that's the that's the finish, but I think I pull it at like 131 or 132. Go back and look at the, go back and look at the thing again. and you're adding the corn syrup. Yeah. Hmm. I mean, just try cooking it to like a degree or 2 lower. So you see what's going on. It's not crystallizing though, right? It's still staying clear. No, it's not crystallizing. Yeah, so, I mean, it's best not to have to nuke it because if you have to nuke it. His Dragon's beer candy, for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, is a candy where you cook sugar to a particular point. My memory is that the finished temperature should be at 133 with a little bit of a little bit of corn syrup added to prevent crystallization. And, um, what you do is it has to be this exact texture that it's a solid but still bendable, uh, when it when it cools down and you form it into a donut and then you stretch it and all the time, putting it through, uh, cornstarch, or a mixture of, uh, cornstarch and cocoa or a mixture of cornstarch and whatever other powdered flavors you
+
+[17:04] want, and folding it and stretching it, folding it and stretching it, until you stretch it into the into the width of cotton candy. It becomes like cotton candy. called dragon's beard in China in other places like Iran. It has other names like, I think they call it peck mesh. No, Peckmesh is the other thing. What's it called? anyway. So I forget. Peck Mesh is the grape molasses, right? I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, it's called something. So a lot of cultures have this thing. And then, but the issue is, is if it's too soft, it'll just blast apart on you. And if it's too hard, you can soften it in the nuke, but when
+
+[17:40] if you're not extremely quick, It'll chill and when it chills, it hardens and then it'll rupture. Sometimes explosive leads. It's quite amusing to watch me getting covered in things and yelling and screaming and cursing when that happens. But I would try just going a degree or 2 lower and then letting
+
+[17:54] it like letting the thing, the temperature rise as it comes off the thing. Are you not altering the batch size, are you? I cut it in half once and then I tried to do the form because it's just me in my apartment. I don't need, you know? 2 pounds of candy. I've never tried it with a smaller batch size, and it might be that the batch size, you're getting a faster rise in temperature with a smaller batch size. The larger batch size was just as hard as the small one. The 1st time I did it, I had it in half, and it got up to temp in like 17 minutes, and maybe that was the issue. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll give another shot and let you guys know how it goes, along with that avocado thing. All right, cool. Thanks brother. All right, thanks. Give up the great work on the show. Thank you very much. All right. Anna writes in. And by the way, Anna, busted Nastasia. Female listener, totally busted. Wait, so wait, she's not a woman now? She's not a woman because she's married? What the hell is that? for Jax. That was why she didn't, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, but Nastasia's point was that we have absolutely no female
+
+[18:53] listeners and not only a female listener, but one from Budapest. So. Well, now my point is we have no single female listeners. Or none that are interested in me. Right. Right, right. Okay. So anyway, further trials with Dulce de Leche, here we go. Anna writes in. I just wanted to give you a shout out that I've listened to all your episodes and currently up to date with the podcast. Thank you. You guys make my baking sessions at home even more entertaining, and I have learnt a great deal from you, which for which I'm very thankful. If you are still not tired of my Dulce de Leche questions, there really can't be enough Dulce de Leche questions, right? I mean, it's a good product. The banging you might hear is from the lunatics upstairs, I guess they're like, they're beating a tree to death. There's trees growing on top of us, and I think they're beating a tree to death. They're building a treehouse. Oh, really? Well, in order to build a treehouse, you have to be treated there. Okay. So, uh, those situlation. Dulce de Leche. Here's a new one. How do I prevent the sugar in Dulce de leche from recrystallizing? The cream turned out beautiful the way you told me, it would, but after a week or
+
+[19:53] two, it started having little sugar crystals in it, and we would like to give it homemade dulce de leche to our guests at our
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+[19:58] wedding, and it's not married yet. Not married yet. At the wedding. Yeah. And it would be nice to give them something that stays smooth. Should I put golden syrup in it? Thank you very much in advance. Hi from Budapest, Adam. Okay, it's not sugar per se. It's not table sugar. That's causing the graininess in your dulcity de leche. It is lactose. And what happens is, is that when you heat the, and concentrate
+
+[20:22] the, the milk making the dulce de leche, you all of a sudden put the lactose in a position that it is
+
+[20:28] super saturated once it cools. And so over time, lactose will acrystallize and then
+
+[20:35] be form larger and larger crystals, agglomerate and tell the lactose crystals get to a point where it tastes sandy in your mouth, at which
+
+[20:42] point very difficult to get rid of them. Now, you should be able to reheat your dual state
+
+[20:49] leche in like a water bath all the way up. You have to go above 93, I think, or above, you know,
+
+[20:55] 85, 93 to get it to go redissolve again. I don't know how long you have to keep it there. But that's not going to solve your problem because what you want to do is give it as a gift and then and then have it stay good for a long period of time. So, you know, that's probably not going to help you. The reheating it. Okay. Now, the way that they do it, the way they do it in condensed milk, right? If you're, I know you're not making dulce de leche from condensed milk because you're doing it the old-fashioned
+
+[21:19] way. But the way that they make sweetened condensed milk, not have this problem, is they add miniature lactose, very, very fine lactose seed crystals as it's cooling down.
+
+[21:30] And by doing that, they seed it with such small crystals that the crystals are small enough that you don't
+
+[21:35] sense them in your in your on your tongue. Okay? Also not an option for you. Although it might be possible to add a small amount of sweetened condensed milk to the
+
+[21:44] dulce de leche as it cools down to seed it with the small crystals. I don't know how much you'd need to add, and you'd want to add them when the stuff is around 35 Celsius, a place where it's still liquid enough to move around. But that, you know, it's not hot enough that it's going to dissolve the sea crystals. Okay. Also, this is probably not going to work out for you. There are various stirring regiments and cooling regiments, but I couldn't find one that reliably worked,
+
+[22:10] right? So here's down to my last one. See what you think about this. You can buy lactase. Lactase is the enzyme that breaks down lactose into its 2 constituent
+
+[22:20] sugars, okay? If you add lactase to the milk, which you can, I think, get at pharmacies, right? Because people who are lactose intolerant can buy lactase and put, or you can just buy lactose free milk, but you know, you can do it yourself because you might have a milk that you like. right? You add the lactose to it. The lactose will break up, the lactose will break up the lactose, but, right? See, lactose is necessary in the thing in the mix because it's a reducing sugar, right? So it's reduced, so straight sucrose. I don't think inverts enough into the dulce de leche to provide a reducing
+
+[22:54] sugar such that it's going to get adequate browning. So some people use glucose. They add glucose, which speeds up the browning, sometimes too much, which is why you have to limit the amount of glucose you add. But if you break down the lactose, It'll still have its reducing sugars when you break it down. And according to advanced dairy chemistry, volume three, lactose water, salt, and minor constituents, if you
+
+[23:16] add, you know, lactase and convert a mere 30 or 40% of the lactose in the milk, then that's enough to prevent recrystallization of the lactose as it
+
+[23:25] cools down. So go buy that, add it to the milk, let it sit around for a day, then make your dual state of
+
+[23:31] late shade, stuff should not crystallize, although please run a test before your wedding because I do not want to ruin your wedding gifts out to your people. Another interesting thing. I read about in that book is that I'd always assumed that the baking soda that people add to the
+
+[23:45] dulce de leche was there to enhance the Mayard reactions by making the product more basic, but it also turns
+
+[23:52] out that it has another purpose. Now just read it directly from advanced dairy chemistry. Uh, Glue, uh, where is it? Um, blah, blah, blah, blah, bum, bum, bum. The mixture of milk and sugars is 1st neutralized with calcium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate. So they're using baking soda or calcium oxide. To obtain a pH of 7.0 or a typritable acidity equivalent to 2 to 10 milligrams of lactic acid, per blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Neutralization avoids the destabilization of casing my cells as a consequence of the decrease in pH during evaporation,
+
+[24:22] which in turn is due to the concentration of calcium phosphate, the formation of organic
+
+[24:26] acids from lactose degradation and the hydrolysis of phosphoric acids of caseines. So, there's actually acid being formed in the milk as it is being boiled down, which can lead to the destabilization of
+
+[24:36] casing my cells. Did not know that. Didn't have another color, Dave. Color! You on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi. I'm calling a slightly strange question. I want to know about the process that you think of emulsifying beef tallow, just straight up, you know, if you were trying to make a foam or a froth,
+
+[24:54] say, could you like run it through an ISI container or use a hand
+
+[24:59] blender, and then once you did that, if you could do that, what would you stabilize it with?
+
+[25:03] I mean, without, uh, well, straight beef fat. Huh. So, I mean, you're gonna want to add, if you're gonna add an emulsifier to aerate the beef fat, you're gonna want to add something that is, um, uh, lipophilic, right? So you're gonna, you're gonna add, uh, probably, um, mono and diglycerides or
+
+[25:24] lessithin, right? But I've never, like, you'd have to somehow aerate it and keep the aeration stable so that you
+
+[25:32] could chill it, right? Yeah, and that's that's where I'm sort of scratching my head. Like, you can sort of maybe get it to, you know, be like a delicate snowflake for a few minutes, but how do you get it to stay that way?
+
+[25:43] Hmm. Aerated fat. Aerated straight fat, not like airy. I mean, it'd be easy if you emulsify the stuff into a water base, right? And then made a fake cream and then kind of whipped that up like, like,
+
+[25:58] koo whip, right? Yeah of course. Like, cool it, but you want straight fat. Straight fat. Uh, well, let me see. Chocolate is mostly straight fat, and I kind of remember what they use to emulsify chocolate when they make the aerated chocolate stuff. Oh that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, of course, there is other there's solids in it, but there's no other liquids in chocolate, right? Right. So, and cocoa butter is a little... I mean, it's firmer, obviously firmer than beef fat, but you can set the sucker up. I mean, if you were to whip air into it, right? Then wait until it's almost kind of, until it started to set up. And you might need to add an
+
+[26:35] emulsifier like mono-deglas rides are like less than thin or something. Less than might work because that's what they have in chocolate. They don't put mono glycerides in chocolate. And then put it in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum on it. So it air rates the same way that like Wiley's air rated fois works or, you know... Yeah, okay. Heston's aerated chocolate or anyone of these things. And then, um, you know, put that sucker in ice water uh, to set it. You might be able to get it to, you might be able to get it to work. That's cool. I will screw around with it and see what I can get it to land on. Thanks for the ideas. Hey, no problem. If anyone else out there has an idea, tweet it on an end and we'll tweet it back out. Great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Oh, thanks. Paul Peterson wrote in about the dairy free ice cream we talked about last week. Just listen to last week's podcast and I have a thought about non-dairy ice cream. I don't have my full recipe with me at the moment, but I make mine using soy creamer. Heated low on a burner to incorporate sugar, and often other flavors, E.G. mint, and then I cool it in the fridge
+
+[27:28] overnight, along with a can of 2 coconut milk. The next day, I scoop the solid fat off the top, blend it with the rest of the base, and then freeze it as indicated. The recipe has surprised many people when they're told it's dairy free, and it's nearly impossible to taste the coconut flavor, Paul Peterson. And in addition, uh, Ellie Nasser wrote in, uh, Dave Ari, uh, regarding dairy free gelato, modernist cuisine
+
+[27:47] home makes awesome flavors using nut butter, juice, oil, and cornstarch. And remember Nils and I, remember that one we used to make styles, like years ago, the pistachio. And then Monter's cuisine made the same one, and then we were demoing in the same, like, but different. sort of. Yeah, but the trick with nut butters. If you're going to use nut butter in a non-dairy ice cream, sucker has to be smooth. smooth, which is why, you know, if you're going to use commercial stuff, a lot of the natural products,
+
+[28:10] like they're kind of grainy, whereas, you know, you know, our good, our good buddies at Jiffy and Skip know how to grind those peanuts until there's some tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles so that you can't taste them.
+
+[28:21] And when we were using nut butters to make him back at the FCI, uh, you know, we were, we were, we were 1st robo cooing them, then
+
+[28:30] vita prepping them, then putting them in a Santa wet grinder to reduce the particle size down to, you know, almost
+
+[28:35] nothing, and then spinning them in a centrifuge to further get the, the, the larger particles to settle out so that we had a super creamy thing. So we got a super creamy result. Your results may vary. Okay. Should we take a quick break? Yeah. Okay, coming back after our 1st commercial break, cooking issues. Today's program has been brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service, founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father,
+
+[29:11] Cam Lee. Rolling Press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks, uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical free production process.
+
+[29:25] For more information, visit rollingpress.com.
+
+[30:28] This song is for Harold McGee. You wrote one of my favorite books called On Food and Cooking. You ever want cherry white, a soufflé, cool rice. It's about gas extension, and what are that big blood? Is it that cool? You wanna know how I knew? I just read the wrong food cooking. The section on egg foams. Yeah, food science rules. Kids nowadays, race. And I answer, he sings a day. He's got big ways. They were the sweater vests, iconic health. Nicky.
+
+[31:24] 'Cause help McGee. Yeah, he's better than you and just like me. You wanna be. A part of his good science crew. At least I do. Maybe not you, but isn't it obvious? Them Crazy Bell Heralds, and he's all shined, for my science fell, and I can't wait until the day that we
+
+[31:54] meet yet, because I'll know, we'll be the best of friends. We'll talk about fired reactions, eh?
+
+[32:20] Yo!
+
+[33:03] My favorite line, Harold McGee, he's better than you. Well, that wasn't direct. No, in general. This in general. I like that. I like that. I just like to mention, I just played that song for a celebrity from Bullbrook Empire who's sitting at that table over there. who? watched me. There's a person from Boardwalk Empire? Yeah, the guy with killed off on like the 2nd season. I haven't watched it yet. Oh, whatever. Okay. Well, thank you. We will call Harold McGee and make sure he listens to that. I wouldn't, if I had known, I could have called him beforehand and had him listen. Well, I don't know what he's doing. He's probably in some other country right now. Who knows? Yeah, he's always flying around the world being herald with his fabulousness as my reactions. J. Matthew Miller writes in. By the way, JMath Miller, patent attorney, said so on his email. Hey there, cooking issues gang. The pumps for the New Orleans public water system. Lost power over the weekend because of a fire in the power generation facility. The loss of power caused a loss of pressure in the water system. As a result, they issued a boil water alert recommending that everyone bring water to a rolling boil for 60 seconds. Our work coffee machines, apparently heat water, at 180 degrees, which is then either kept in a thermal carafe or on a hot plate. So at temperature for at least a little while. It's 180 degrees Fahrenheit, 82.2 degrees C, hot enough for whatever might be lurking in that water, or is there really a need to bring it to 212 degrees? Thanks, love. show. Keep up the good work and can't wait to hear about the Kickstarter. Well, we already talked about the Kickstarter, but you are exactly right. Your coffee machine. here's the thing, right? You got 2 problems here. Water might taste like dirt. right? Might be crap. I mean, like, I don't just mean literally crap. Like the water might taste bad. Now, that's not going to get solved by the boiling, right? Although I guess you could flock stuff out by boiling it, right? Anyway. But, um, Here's the thing. You don't need to heat it up to the boil. In fact, I found some very interesting articles on water pasteurization in places like Africa. Now, in places that don't have safe water or if there's an epidemic going around and they issue a water boiling thing, the problem is it takes a lot of resources to bring actual water to the boil.
+
+[35:14] It takes a lot fewer resources in terms of wood to burn fuel to
+
+[35:18] use, whatever, to bring water up to a lower temperature. So there's a bunch of articles out there that show that in fact, heating to 65 degrees Celsius is adequate, you know, assuming that everything is heated through to 65 degrees
+
+[35:32] Celsius, is adequate to assure that you pasteurize your
+
+[35:37] water, such that it's safe to drink. I mean, assuming it doesn't have some inorganic crap in it that's, you know, like poison. If it's got poison in it, then boiling's not going to help it anyway. poison. Uh, so, uh, what's really cool is these guys have developed these, and if you go to, I think it's like solarcooking.com or something like that. These guys have developed this really cool system for use in places without power, where you make a
+
+[35:59] trough, and the sun is heating the water, and they have a little vial of a little air filled vial that has a solidified soy protein, not soy
+
+[36:08] protein. soy fat in it. The soy fat melts at exactly 154 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's in the top of this vial that's that's weighted down, but it's like floating in the
+
+[36:17] water, and you and it's down at the bottom, which is the coldest part of the water. And if you look at it and the fats run to the bottom of the tube. It means it's melted and your whole thing came to temperature. So it's a quick verification that your that your stuff has worked and then you just remelt the fat, invert it and it's ready to go again. So yes, it's something I didn't know about. Uh, this uh, whole uh, solar solar pasteurization of water in places, but there you have it, 65. So 65 being below 82. 82 should be good. Right? Those are kind of good question. Okay. At Barriatua writes in. Are there any can't miss technical food events in New York City at the week of March 26th? Nastasia, are there any technical food events in the week of March 26th? You're doing something at the Boule, uh, kitchen, test kitchen. Yeah, but that's just Bruno Gouseau is coming in and doing a thing and then we're just going to like chill out for him, right? They're teaching a class? Well, there you have it. A chance to see the great Bruno Gouseau at David Boule's Test Kitchen. There might still be space available. I have no idea. We're supposed to go in and just chill out from a little bit, right? They should go to www.l-E-C-R-E-A dot com. Wow, I just couldn't pay attention to what you're saying. Say that again. Hey, like me. Are you on Zampos? Yeah, yeah. I am. L-E-C-R-E-A dot com. Oh, Krea. Look, yeah, Krea is Bruno Gusteau's school. Anyway, okay, okay. Hey guys, I gotta jump in. March 27th, Heritage Radio Network, 2nd salon party, which will be on the hunt for the city's best vodka cocktail. Maybe not the most tech event, but still pretty cool. I mean, we make a pretty good vodka tail. We're trying to get involved. Okay, okay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. At cut Hancock, and there's really, there's other ways to read that, which are not as family friendly. But at Cut Hancock writes in. What is the name of the Apple Preserve in England? I traveling to London in 2 weeks and was hoping to visit. Thanks. Oh, there's not going to be much there now, I think, on the trees, figured out. But it is the Brogdale, the Brogdale. Uh, and it's it's, it's in Kent uh, in a town called Favisham. It's called the Brogdale. Nastasia been there Nastasia and I've been there now a couple times. Or no, you went once and I went once with McGee. Okay. All right. Let me see. do that one last because I'm going to scream about it for a long time. Okay. David Wilkie writes in from Huntington Beach, California. Where is that, St us? On the beach. Duh. Is it north or south? South. Okay. Over where you're from? Okay. About eggs. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, at all. I recently read HCP, blah, blah, blah, about how to make a naked egg. It deserves how to make a naked egg. You can find it. I know it's possible to dissolve the shell off a raw egg using vinegar, which leaves the raw egg intact in a semi-permeable membrane. I also know that this ruins the flavor of the egg completely. I popped one open and fried it up post-dissolve. It was awful. Solid vinegar in the shape of a fried egg. Not just vinegar, though. There is also a lot of dissolved calcium in there and the calcium's gross because if you've ever eaten an eggshell, eggshells,
+
+[39:18] then not sub bueno. You know what I mean? And so like that calcium, what you're doing with the vinegar is you're taking the calcium carbonate that's in the shell and dissolving
+
+[39:25] it into solution. So you're probably also getting a nasty calcium taste on top of the vinegar taste. So it's probably a double whammy of nastiness. Anyway, whatever. I also now know you can dehydrate a dechelled egg by soaking it. By the way, here's what doesn't work. You cannot re-eg it. You can't, like, take the egg after you've dissolved the shell and then put it in calcium hydroxide and have it reincorporate into a
+
+[39:45] shell. A couple people have said that you can. And I tried it. I've tried it like 5 different times. You can't do it anyway. Uh, I don't know. Like, you know, someone's like, well, I'm going to like take an egg, like reform into a new shape, reharden the shell. Like, you know how this, you know, like the Japanese square egg makers? Yeah, which but they, you know, they make squared eggs out of shelled eggs, not out of eggs in the shell. So anyway, whatever. But someone said, can you do it? So I was like, no, no, no, I'll try it back when I had more time to try things and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Okay. Back to Dave's questions. I also know that you can dehydrate a dechelled egg by soaking it in corn syrup. I'm not confident this will make it taste any better, if not somehow worse. I haven't tried it yet. What got me excited is learning that if you deshell a raw egg and vinegar. Then dehydrate it. You can rehydrate it in water. If the raw egg absorb the flavor of vinegar, I'm thinking it also absorb some of the flavors present in the liquid to rehydrate it. So why not deshell and dehydrate a raw egg, then rehydrate it with chicken stock or any other flavor
+
+[40:40] of a liquid, that's just the 1st one I thought of. It seems you would be, uh, you'd be able to get a unique intensity of flavor that would be much different from pickled eggs or tea eggs, and the eggs still being raw, allows it to be used in other preparations and form, forms. I'm imagining preparations like flavor infused fried eggs, for example. Uh, so the 1st issue I'm having is dissolving the shell without ruining the flavor. And then after that, how else could you go about dehydrating it without corn syrup, will corn syrup, osmosis harm the flavor? Is there a better method, maybe storing with desiccant packs, bubble, blah. Well, no, I don't think Desic and packs are going to work. You probably going to want to use osmosis. Otherwise, you're going to have otherwise, you're going to have some problems. The issue is, look, the real question is, what we don't know is what can make, what I don't know, I should say, you might know, is what can go
+
+[41:21] through, the key thing is semi-permeable. So the question is, what can go through and what can't? Clearly, if the inside of your thing tasted like vinegar, then vinegar can make it through the membrane,
+
+[41:31] right? Clearly water can make it through the membrane. That's why osmosis is working. Uh, Can protein make it through the membrane? I would guess not. So, you know, can other peptides make it through the membrane. I don't know. So the question is which flavors are going to be able to transfer through. Like, can you get sugars through? Can you get, I mean, clearly vinegar you can get through. So it's a question of what can go through and what can't, as a question of what you can do for flavoring it. But it sounds interesting. I have to give it kind of more thought rather than just a morning thinking about it. This is the kind of thing that, you know, as Joel is saying, McGee has probably thought of once or twice. Probably, he's thought of everything. He, well, yeah, he's, he does think about it, because he just sits around thinking and he doesn't tell you about it until he's pretty sure he's right. That's the thing about McGee. He doesn't just he doesn't just go spouting off. Uh, so, um, I wouldn't think Desican packets would work because what you want to do, you don't want to have a case hardening situation, which you would probably get in the membrane, you probably turn it into a thing.
+
+[42:30] Also, I would go with a very high acid vinegar so that you
+
+[42:35] could dissolve the shell extremely quickly and not wait for all the acid to
+
+[42:38] diffuse through the membrane if you want to get less in. So go buy, if you go to Russian stores, you can buy 10% vinegar, which is pretty hardcore. I have some. Remember Styles? We went to go get Kavas and I bought all that 10% vinegar. 10% vinegar, badass. And then you could probably also neutralize the vinegar somewhat, although that will still leave some acetic taste if you've ever
+
+[42:56] tasted acetates, different acetates, you know, vinegar salts. Anyway. but give that a shot. Sorry, I do not have more good information with that. Okay. And wait, we actually have a little bit of time. I sped through that so fast. By the way, Jason Besant wrote into you, Nastasia. Just checking, is this the correct email address to send a question, and clearly, since I'm reading it, it is. Would love to call, but I live in Tasmania. And then in Perez, Australia. Like, really, you're calling out the Australia? not like Tasman Pride that you're just like, I'm from Tasmania. Like, we don't know where that is. You gotta remember, everyone in the United States grew up with the Tasmanian devil. We all know where Tasmania is. Like, ask us any other like country or place. We have no idea where the hell it is. But, like, everyone's like, Tasmania. I got to look up where that thing comes from. and they go look at them, right? pretty sure I don't know where Prague is. No, yeah, but Tasmania? Absolutely Yeah, hell yeah. As far as I'm concerned, this is the Tasmanian devil writing into cooking issues. Yeah, right? As far as you know, Tasmanian devils are like kind of awesome. Like, because, like, you've seen their mouths when they open their mouths. Oh, man, just Google the Tasmanian because Dax, my son, has done this many times. He's like, Tasmanian devils. He's like, who would win a Tasmanian devil or a Wolverine? I was like, that just doesn't come up. It just doesn't come up. You know? Uh, okay. Al Solstrom wrote in. Can one use, gentian, quinine, et cetera, as beer, as a beer bittering agents. Do different herbs produce noticeably different bitter flavors. Obviously, hot flavor slash aroma involves a lot that goes beyond that, but I'm curious about the differences in bitter
+
+[44:38] compounds. Okay, look. Bitter, unlike acid. First, I'm not going to get into like what I believe in what I what I don't believe are the fact that I'm freaked out that different acids have different flavors, even though they're
+
+[44:51] non-volatile and even though they don't all have bitter complements, right? I still don't fully understand why it doesn't malic acid taste different than citric acid. But to a 1st order approximation, sourness is a relatively simple flavor in that it activates one type of receptor
+
+[45:07] only and your tongue. Ditto with sugar. Different sugars have different flavors because they have different onsets of sweetness and different aftertastes and different off
+
+[45:16] notes, for instance. I hate Stevia. Can we buy, I hate stevia.com, or is that already taken? Does anyone like Stevia? No, this stuff sucks. Like, just, I'd rather have no sugar than have that Stevia crap. That stuff is ruined. And then they're like, well, I came up with a way that I can mask the awful taste of the Stevia. Me too. I don't use it. Sucks. It feels like I'm like I'm chewing on a soap bar. Yeah, it's awful. And, like, someone will hand it to you, and then, like, it leaves this poisonous aftertaste. It's horrible. The domain's available. Oh! Can we buy, I hate stevia.com? Jack, can you buy that? It's 15 bucks. Yeah, we will do it. Done. Boom. Anyone out there who wants it, right in, and we'll give you an email address
+
+[45:59] at IHate Stevie.com. Okay. You're the other one that you want to buy. Which one? I hate which one? I hate that me. Oh, is that available? Everyone hates that. Oh, yeah, everyone hates dot me. That's available? Yeah, because they just opened the Montenegro. They just opened the Montenegro website. you know, domains.me. And so I was going to get everybody hates.me, and then I could be like, I'm Dave, and everybody hates.me. That'd be pretty awesome. You want to buy that one too, Jack, while we're at it? Indy Jesus. me also available. Oh, but he's the only one that can, what would his address be? me at indiejesus.me? Okay, back to the question. Back to the question. Stay on task. So, um, So here's the thing. Uh, couple of things with bitterness. So sweetness is like a similar receptor, sourness, ditto
+
+[46:50] salt. Bitterness, there are many different bitter receptors on your tongue. So there's all these different umami, I guess also. 11 set of things, but bitterness has many different receptors. And so there are, consequently, very many different types of bitterness. In fact, I taste a lot of bitter things, but
+
+[47:10] I am a very low taster for prop, which is what they use to determine whether, so depending on our genetics, you know, some of us will have either a very, very strong reaction to the chemical prop,
+
+[47:23] who's, I can't remember what the name of the thing is, right? And those people, in general, are called super tasters. And it used to be thought. And by some people still is thought, that your ability to taste prop, correlated with the number of taste buds, and therefore how well you could taste other things. Professor Zucker. Columbia says that's a load of horse hockey, but whatever. know, nobody knows. So, uh, so prop, you can uh, totally lack the gene for tasting prop, and you're called a non-taster, or you could be a regular taster somewhere in between.
+
+[47:56] You guys ever taken the prop test? Yeah, you put the strip on your thing. Some people will think it just tastes like paper and some people will be like, blah. and then some people will be somewhere in the middle. I can barely, if at all, taste it, right? But other bitter compounds I'm extremely sensitive to. So, uh, and it just is this one category of bitter receptors that, you know, I'm deficient in
+
+[48:15] Stasi, what's your stood? you like? I don't remember. You don't remember? Anywho, so the point is, is that bitterness can be very different depending on your doing, what you're doing. But it's like, you know, quinine, super freaking bitter. You know what I mean? So you can use it, but it's not going to be the same bitterness that you get in beard. Now. Bitter and and you can get many beers. There's the old form of beer, uh, was called uh, one of the old forms was called uh, Grewit, uh, and it's uh, herbed beer without hops. Remember, hops, although in use for a long time in beer in Germany and in that
+
+[48:48] area, didn't spread throughout the rest of Europe until relatively late, like in the
+
+[48:54] 14, 1500s, right? and didn't become dominant until like around that time, I think, 14, 15, maybe even a little bit later in every area. And so some people have even tried to bring back beer styles that don't have any hobbs in them. I mean, most notable were the ones I used to get. There's a Scottish beer company and I have it somewhere in this massive letters that I have in my thing. But I've tried their beer. They have a heather beer. They have a kelp beer. I like the header beer, not the, and a pine beer. And the pine beer, I actually really liked, with spruce. But hops is not the only it's not the bitterness is not the only reason it's there. Also, it's there because hops acts as an antimicrobial, as a preservative in beer. So if you're going to have a hop free beer, you want to make sure that you're not
+
+[49:42] going to have other things growing in it. Now, hops, the article to look at is, I have it
+
+[49:48] here, written down for you, beer, spoilage, bacteria, and hop resistance. And you can get the whole thing on the internet. And it has a really interesting history of hops using and what it's doing. Hops destroys what are called gram positive bacteria. So bacteria, divide, one of the ways to divide bacteria, roughly, is into gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. And it was based on this guy, Graham, from Denmark, at least Danish people, Danes. No offense. Love Danes. Love Danes. Anyway, so he just developed this way of staining bacteria to look at them under the microscope and, you know,
+
+[50:21] didn't really understand the significance of it. It turns out that it's actually quite significant not just to whether or not it stains a particular color, but to what the outside of the, like what the outside of the bacteria is, whether it has a,
+
+[50:32] um, you know, an extra lipid layer on the outside of the bacteria. So it actually is a good way to determine like whole different sections of bacteria. Anyway, some grand-positive bacteria of interest are lactobacillus and
+
+[50:46] petiococcus. And these bacteria are some of the most common spoilers bacteria in beer, giving it nasty ropey this, and kind of lactic off flavors, right? And hops nukes those things, right? Whereas gram negative things, like acetobactor, doesn't get as heavily affected. And right now, actually, it's weird. There's some, there's some lactic acid bacteria, they're becoming resistant to hops, and they're becoming a renewed interest. And when I was reading this, I learned, here's some other nasty ones. Here's some nasty things that aren't killed by hops. Ready for these? Pectinatis, which provides extensive turbidity and an offensive rotten egg smell, and my favorite
+
+[51:26] megasphera. The production of hydrogen sulfide causes a fecal odor in beer. my favorite part of beer. My favorite is the fecal odor, which makes this bacteria one of the most feared organisms for brewers. Right? Good news is no kill you. None of this stuff will kill you. My brother's actually a brewer. Really? Yeah, he owns a brewery and it just started up called Thimble Island Brewery in Branford, Connecticut. Oh, yeah, good? Oh, Fimble Island. I never went out there. I hear it's nice out there though. Pimple Islands? I was actually on one of those tour boats when I was a kid and I was I was a 1st mate. Yeah? And then I got fired. For hopefully not for excessive Thimble Island beer drinker. No, no, no. I fell asleep and he ran over a buoy and he got mad. Yeah, well, there you have it. Yeah. Buoy. But anyway, yeah. So he hasn't run into a fecal smelling. problem in his beer, but I'm gonna make him aware of it. Well, why don't we ship them a sample of Megasferra back? He can mix it in. We can make some some strong some Thimble Island fecal beer. Do you think that would sell in Brooklyn? Yeah, like some people would catch onto. I guarantee it would sell out here somewhere. All you got to do is tell them that it makes them more hip. They could put on their Greto headphones and drink their fecal beer and they'll love it. All right, which brings me to the last thing before we have to leave. No, okay, I love you, Brooklyn. Come on. Okay, which brings me to my last thing. Uh, Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, right? We're all familiar with the Miller High Life, correct? So Miller High Life, we serve it in the bar in the little miniature pony bottles, which these tiny bottles as a garnish. If the beer is a garnish to a salty drink, we make called the corsair. The corsair, we we, uh, we spin, clarify, we blend and spin clarified lemons, not to make them 100% clear, but just to make them thinner, so that they work in a shake and drink and to get rid of a lot of the albedo, which we melt with, uh,
+
+[53:07] pectanex ultra SPO. So preserved lemon, Moroccan style, hence corsair, you know, Moroccan pirates, and lime juice, and tequila, and makes a super salty drink that I like. And then we serve it with this little like pony of Miller High Life as the garnish. Now here's the thing. How is it for all, because everyone knows who thinks about beer, that hops when hop compounds, right? Which is humulones get decomposed in the work boiling to isohumulones, which are the actual
+
+[53:40] bidding bittering agents that are soluble in water. So it's isohumulones that are there. ISO alpha acids as they're known. And these suckers in the presence of ultraviolet light, right? breakdown and form skunky components by scavenging sulfur in
+
+[53:56] it. And a really good, uh, really good, um, treatment of it that I thought was very readable and seemed accurate from what I can remember and what I
+
+[54:03] know, is light strike in uh, in advanced, a light strike, advanced brewing uh, by Chris Bible. The guy's name's Chris Bible. How could you forget it? But he has a little web article that's really nice on it where he actually tells you what the compounds are that are being broken apart in a very readable way that I thought was very good.
+
+[54:19] So go check it out for stuff on life strike. But here is the interesting part. Miller High Life comes in a clear bottle and does not get skunked. How do you do it? Yeah, right. Neither did I. They use these hop acid extracts that have been dorked with so that they don't skunk out anymore.
+
+[54:39] And on the way out, I'm just gonna read you what they do. Under Chris Bible section, another approach at protecting beer from light strike. Apart from storing beer and lightproof containers, which is duh, the right way to do it, except for the fact that Miller
+
+[54:52] High Life's bottle is so awesome that you don't want to mess with Miller High Life just to keep the beer good, right? kidding. Uh, but the uh, kidding. So, apart from storing beer and lightproof containers, the photo sensitivity of beer can be reduced by chemically altering the
+
+[55:06] isoalpha acid so that the chemical precursor to the photochemical reaction responsible for producing
+
+[55:11] lightstruck, a.k.a. skunked flavor is not present within the beer. Isoalpha acids can be converted to reduced isoalpha acids by hydrogenation or by reaction with sodium borohydride. Three major types of reduced iso acids can be produced, dihydro, tetrahydro, and hexahydro. Interestingly, I don't have time to read the whole thingamajig, but interestingly, they still break apart when they're hit by light, but the stuff that's broken apart doesn't form the nasty
+
+[55:34] skunkiness. And this is how Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, can maintain the clarity and beauty of its pony sized bottles without having the skunk flavor. Thank you, Joe. Till next week. cooking issue.
+
+[55:53] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[56:20] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all-natural,
+
+[0:06] grass-fed and grass finished beef. For more information, visit hurstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bookery, Brooklyn. Join with is Joe still on tour? Yeah. How's it going, the tour? Pretty good. We just checked in with him. He was on the road, driving to Austin, doing a 1000000 shows in between, screaming his brains out. Nice, screaming his brains out. Good call. Okay, so not with Joe, but with Jack, and of course, always. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, this stuff? Good thing. Yeah, doing well? Good. Cody Kushes 2, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. going to get right into it today. Morton Matson from Denmark writes in. Hi, Dave at all. Question on quail eggs. I've been making a quail egg recipe based on the Noma cookbook called Hay smoked quail eggs. I'm not going to pronounce, like, he writes it in Danish, like I can pronounce that thing. Herber geared it, vegteleg. What do you think? That's pretty good Yeah? All right, okay. In the recipe of the eggs? Although, you know what? I was in Denmark for a day and like, it's so weird. It doesn't sound like whatever anyway. Okay. In the recipe. The eggs are blanched for one minute, 30 seconds, then cooled, then blanched for 50
+
+[2:06] seconds, and then cooled again to set the white. So the idea being to double blanch, I presume, I don't own the cookbook. the recipe, but the double blanch, I assume, is to hit the whites as hard as possible without overcooking the yolk. I mean, it seems to me that's why. That why. That's the guess. Okay, after this step, the eggs are peeled. The recipe then goes on to smoke the eggs for 20 minutes with hay and then pickle the eggs before they're served with smoke from a smoking gun. For my recipe, I skipped the hay smoking step, instead put the eggs in a water bath at 64C for 45 minutes to slightly set the egg yolk. By the way, 45 minutes way more than you need for quail eggs. Quail legs cooked through in like under 15. There's they're so fast. Remember, the the speed at which, like you double the size of something and the amount of time it takes to cook through to the center for a given set of variables is multiplied by four, not by
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+[2:57] two. And the same thing goes in the other direction. You reduce something by one half and it's a quarter of the time it takes to cook. So it quail eggs cook incredibly quickly. Anyway, which is why presumably they're only blanched for 30 seconds and then 50 seconds. Okay, okay. My question is the following. Is there any easy way to peel the eggs? You stumbled upon one of our favorite things to make other people do, which is
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+[3:18] peel clear legs, rice sauce? We used to love doing that to interns. Peel these quail legs, and they would sit there and yell at them when they ruin them all. Anyway. Is there an easy way to peel the eggs? As of now, it is a pain. I've used a pair of tweezers and carefully peel them. That sucks. The time spent per egg is long, and even still, I end up destroying half the eggs true. I do seem to struggle with the fact the membrane of the quail egg seems to be extremely tough. You are correct. I do prick a small hole to puncture the air cell in the bottom of the egg. Without this, the egg white above the air cell does not set as much, presumably due to the insulating effect of the air cell. So far, I've tried to use older eggs, as at least for chicken eggs, older eggs are easier to peel, and you're wondering why this is the case, which I'll explain in a minute. I have tried modernist cuisine trick of blowtorching the eggs to make them easier to peel. However, this result resulted in either exploding eggs because of excess heating or too little to no effect on the peeling. Do you know what the desired effect of the blowtorch is? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's too, uh, dry and expand the shell at that one point to help it pull away from the membrane. The whole point, well, we'll get into it. By the way, Paul Adams, our buddy and popular science writer, who is testing our blowtorch thing, I'm
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+[4:24] a Jiggy right now, he says that the torch thing is good for peeling the eggs because you don't get to scorch marks on it.
+
+[4:29] Nice, man. Um, Okay, however this results in exploded eggs or blah, blah, blah. Do you know what this artifact of the blowtorch is? Is it a question of generating steam beneath the membrane to detach it or is it to dry out the shell or something else? They have some combination of all those things? I've read that pressure cooking is sometimes employed on commercial scale to cook eggs, since this could make peeling easier. I, however, seen no way of doing this on the small quail eggs. I do, however, make sure to have a rolling boil when I blanch the eggs. Maybe I can steam my eggs from the vent on the pressure cooker. I've also seen examples of people removing the shell with an acid, but expect the egg to become inedible after this treatment. Another consideration will be using the technique seen on this video. And I'll tell you what the video is. Um, The video is this guy, and you can get, there's this one. There's also a crazier, crazier one of a guy with like a hardcore Scottish accent and no teeth. I think it was Scottish. Anyway, so you hard boil the egg, you break the egg on like a little bit on 2 sides, and then you put your mouth over it. Here's where Nastasia starts cringing and you literally blow the egg out of the shell. You keep the you keep the shell intact on the sides. You create air pressure behind it and blow the egg out. And I've seen it on the YouTube a couple of times. Let me just say, this is not recommended procedure. if you're going to serve people uh food. No, I mean, Nastasia would do it and serve it to you, but she wouldn't want you to do it and serve it to her. I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't? For your own egg, you'd do it. Yeah, anyway. Okay. But that technique brings an interesting question. If you are going to do soft. So I'm going to start with something you didn't ask because it's my nature. It's in my nature to do that. We used to have a thing where we would try to circulate soft quail eggs at 62 and 63 Celsius,
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+[6:06] right? So the whites still kind of really gloopy. And then the question is, how do you crack them out of the shell? the same way that you crack chicken eggs out of the shell that are at 62 and 63 because it's almost impossible to do it. Uh, you know, normally by just cracking it, opening, because, as you rightly point out, the membrane of the quail eggs is incredibly tough. So here's the way to do that. The little quail egg toppers, the little quail egg cutters, they look like cigar cutters. You take the egg and you clip both the fat and the thin end of the egg so that you have air hitting both
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+[6:38] sides, and then you can shake out the egg gently onto, you know, whatever you want, toast or whatever. And I found that we get almost 0 breakage when you're getting when you're taking quail eggs out that way. So we went from almost entire breakage where we have to, you know, get twice as many quail eggs as we needed to almost no breakage when we were doing quail eggs that
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+[6:58] way. So it's just clip both sides and shake it out. And what reminded me of that is that it's that freak show blowing the egg out with his hard-boiled egg out with his mouth. Okay. Um, the, the, the article you should, 1st of all, the article you should read in general, and it's available on
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+[7:14] the internets for free, is the effects of cooking methods on pealability and appearance of eggs by Kenneth N. Hall and Hong Wan Lee out of 1997 in good old stores, Connecticut up there at
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+[7:27] UConn, where they did the study, right? If you have a copy of I think it's Stettleman's egg science and technology, that's an okay reference too. But really, just for a succinct, you know, description of what's going on, that that 77 article is great. So here's the deal. Old eggs are better for 2 reasons. And depending on who you go to, even on the egg, dairy council, egg board, whatever it is, incredible edible egg, they will always talk about one or the other of the reasons why older eggs are good, but not both at the same time.
+
+[7:57] Here's what happens. As eggs age, CO2 leaves. As CO2 leaves, the egg whites become more alkaline, right? And simultaneously the air sack between the 2 membranes and the fat part of the egg becomes larger.
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+[8:11] As that membrane becomes larger, there's more air in there and air between those 2 membranes facilitates peeling, and so that facilitates peeling. However, the increased alkaline nature of the egg white also
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+[8:23] debonds the protein or makes the protein bond less strongly from the white to the
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+[8:29] membrane and therefore also facilitates peeling. So, it's a dual effect of increased air in that egg, in the thing, and of increased alkalinity over storage, which is why very fresh eggs can be difficult to peel.
+
+[8:42] In the 1977 study, they found that piercing the fat end of the egg where the air sack is does not necessarily help in pealability. The bad news is, is that the actual data for all this stuff is all over the map. Pressure cooking, right? It turns out that the majority of the benefit, 1st of all, also, you're going to get better
+
+[9:01] peelability if the eggs go into hot water. All the studies show that putting in cold water and bringing it up, it causes the eggs to be less peelable, although there will be more cracking of the eggs if you put them into hot water
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+[9:14] initially, but the eggs that don't crack and get destroyed that way will be easier to
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+[9:19] peel if they go into simmering or boiling water as opposed to being brought slowly up from cold. All right? So those are 2 things that affect it. Also, the way you crack it affects it. So the way that they, if you go on the internet and you want a fascinating thing, look up egg peeling machines and you can sit there and watch these machines, various ways peeling eggs, but they all do some variant of the, uh, crack and roll to break the shell up into a bunch of pieces, but leave the membrane intact so
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+[9:47] that you then can peel it off without it shattered, without it, um, without it ripping the egg. So there's that. But this, the pressure cooking is very interesting. And, um, I've never done this technique, but I looked into it and it's mentioned in the article from
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+[9:59] 1977 and a lot of stuff was done on it. I think by hip pressure cook, who, you know, we've spoken to on the Twitter a couple of times and she might have written in here once. I don't know. But she was doing pressure cooking of peeling eggs. And here's the deal. It turns out that it's not, and it's written in the 77 article. It's not the high temperature of the pressure cooker that is in fact making the eggs easier to peel. What it is, is, is you do a quick release of the pressure after they're
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+[10:26] cooked, and the quick release of the pressure causes the shells to
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+[10:31] puff out a little bit from the egg and rupture, and therefore make it easier to get the eggs off to get the shell off of the egg.
+
+[10:39] So the question is, how can you do that in a quail egg? Because quail egg cooks so fast? Well, you have to be quick on your toes, which means if you have to be able to get your pressure cooker up to
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+[10:47] pressure extremely quickly, like extremely quickly. And by that, I mean very fast. So, uh, you know, like you want as much water as you can in there, like a small load of eggs,
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+[10:57] uh, close it, or if you have an autoclave or like a Frankie commercial pressure cooker that can get up and down, like in a matter of seconds, you might be able to get the eggs out fast enough to not overcook them.
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+[11:06] I don't know. But it's definitely the pressure going. You could also, probably, literally just, put the eggs under pressure in like an ISI or something like that, and then just vent the pressure real quick and have the eggs pop open. But I'm just thinking of that as we're saying, I haven't really thought of it. I mean, I've thought of it because I just told you about it, but I haven't tested it because I just thought about it. One, I had one last thing to say on egg peel ability. But it's out of my head. I guess it doesn't exist anymore. It couldn't have been that important. I feel like it was very important, but you know, who knows? I'll never remember because I don't remember what I've already said and what I haven't said. Anyway, I hope that's somewhat helpful on eggs and their relative peel ability. Okay. Ivan writes in on vermouth. Hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe, although Joe, no shouts to you because you're shouting your head off out there in Austin, right?
+
+[11:53] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, if you're not here, no shouts if you're not here. You know what I mean? No love unless you're in the studio. That's how it works. There is an Aaron Fairbanks in the studio. Oh, Aaron Aaron from Heritage Radio Network. You want to come in and make a pitch for the radiate for the radio network, Aaron? All right. All right, we're going to take a short break from talking about Ivan's Vermouth question to do a pitch for the Heritage Radio Network and all the good things that they do. Welcome, Aaron. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Yeah, nice. Nice. I like it. I like a little pop in. feel free to pop in as a, you know, guest. So what's going on? going on with the Heritage radio these days? Now, what's not going on? Things are blowing up. We've got tons of great people coming through the studio to do interviews. We're reaching out to college campuses across the nation, trying to get the most radical, progressive thinkers and food, coming to the network, sharing what's going on in their communities and just building on the existing
+
+[12:45] stuff, like the great work you guys do on cooking issues. You can get some crazy reaction areas as well as the progressives. Yeah, man, we want to be giving space for all voices. Yeah, yeah. That's why we have Nastasia and I are together because, you know, we never agree almost, right? I mean, she won't talk about it on the air, but you all know how she feels because I'll go off on it. So that's what you need. Speaking of people disagreeing on air. How are we doing with the Museum of Food and Drink series? It's going to happen, right? It's totally going to happen. I'm super excited to get some amazing people in here. What we want to do is have strong conversations where people are maybe
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+[13:20] yelling but not yelling necessarily over each other or particularly at each other. But I think, yeah, moving forward, looking to hear from your guy Peter. and then we're gonna rock and roll. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, we're already talking about some topics that we're going to bring up. And I mean, I think the format is going to be probably that I'm just going to ask questions of people, moderate
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+[13:39] them. And hopefully, you know, at the end of it, we'll have to break out the Crisco for the big wrestling match, right?
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+[13:45] You know, I'm more of a fan of Jell-O pudding, but if Chris goes away to go, you are the expert. Well, we can go either way. I mean, I was thinking more of like kind of, you know, trying to pick up a greased pig. I'm more of a group. I never went to a Jell-O wrestling thing, but I have seen people try to pick up greased pigs and it's hilarious. I'm thinking more again at the college campus outreach, you know, it's just a thing that students relate to.
+
+[14:05] The Jell-O thing. Yeah, see, I'm too old. I don't, you know, it's to me, I'm like, you're wasting all that Jell-O. All that knocks could have been used for something good. anyway. Anyway, I do want to, I do want to make a little pitch for membership. I mean, the cooking issues, team cooking issues. Listeners are definitely one of our primary sources for membership, and that's really
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+[14:23] the one of the main funding streams that keeps the station going, allows us to build out new program, to bring you more Dave, to bring you more
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+[14:29] nastasia, bring more, and pizza. Buys us pizza. I'm kidding. That's not what it goes for. Roberta's donates to pizza. I'm only kidding And by the way, thank you people for donating. Yeah, thank you to Roberta. Thank you to everyone who sponsors and everyone who supports and we hope that, you know, you out there listening will want to be part of that too. Nice. All right. I don't know what else to do in those situations. All right, so well, after that, you want to go to our 1st commercial break? Oh, yeah, give me a 2nd here. hold on. All right. I'll hold on First commercial break. Cooking issues.
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+[16:02] First, ranch, grass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hearst transgrass fit the free range, sustainably produced, humane. First ranch grass fed beef, the authentic flavor of the American West.
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+[16:28] Damn Skippy. Damn Skippy. Grass fed beef. My favorite, my favorite network song. Love that thing. Okay, new competition. Submit your cover version of the Hearst Ranch Grass Fed Beef song. Oh, yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. What do they get? Hearst wrench, grass fed beef? That's fair. That's what they get. That's fair. That's fair business right there. I'll make that happen All right. I like that. All righty. Uh, okay. Oh, speaking of which, Jack, we have a question later. I'm going to give you some heads up right now. They want recommendations in Brooklyn. I have a couple. Oh, we connected with John, yeah. Yeah, or you know that I have like an aversion to crossing water unless I have to. Not really. I mean, I'm not afraid of water or bridges, but I'm just joking about it. But, you know, Nastasia and I, I don't never eat out. Nastasia eats out all the time because I got the kids. I'm home with the kids. But Nastasia eats out quite a bit, but prefers to eat out in Manhattan. But we have some recommendations for Brooklyn. But think about it, think about it for a minute. I was thinking Nastasia would handle that one because she's Miss Brooklyn, you know? I heard she was opening a restaurant in Brooklyn actually. Yeah, right? A craft beer bar, actually, Jack. You know, we could really use a craft beer bar out here. I know, there's nothing out here. You can't, you know, anyway, there's no there's no Brooklyn Pride or love of beer out here. None. None. Cocktails, forget it. No, it's just nothing. Nothing, nothing. It's all McDonalds out here. Okay. Ivan writes in, hi, Anastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. First, I love the show. discovered a few months ago. I've been making my way through the back catalog. I'm around episode number 60. Ouch, you got a long way to go. right? Just skip it. It all useless and I'm kidding. You've made my commute much more fun and helped quite a bit with my cooking knowledge. I've recently got my hands on some wormwood, and I'm thinking about making my own vermouth. I live in Toronto and the iron fist of the provincial alcohol monopoly only gives us a very limited number of choices. Martini and Rossi, Chinzano Noi Pratt and stock. And not only, oh, not only that, they charge you way too much, the tax in Canada, I was shocked, shocked. I went to Vancouver a year and a half ago with Don Lee, the master of all, like, kind of back
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+[18:35] of the, like, Don Lee, master. Anyway. So, um, it turns out that bottles of Hendrix there are like little gold nuggets, and we were able to carry them around and trade them for large amounts of delicious sandwiches from the street trucks because your alcohol laws are so nutty in terms of
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+[18:49] the, uh, uh, the taxes there. Anyway, I digress. More to the point, they're all sold in largest bottles, which sit for months in my fridge, eventually going flat,
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+[18:58] flat meaning, I guess, oxidized, not flat, because they're not carbonated anyway. I'm a home consumer and my wife is not particularly fond of removed cocktails. You got to work on that. You got to work on your wife there, Ivan. got to get, you know what? If you got the higher quality ver, is it, I mean, if she likes cocktails at all, right? Unless she's only a citrus cocktail person. If you get the right vermouth, you can probably get her on the on the vermouth cocktails. Um, okay, uh, 1st of all, before we even go any further with the rest of this question. hold on a second. Like, I'm going to say this, what you should do is get a bunch of smaller bottles, get your vermouth, bottle it in the smaller bottles with almost 0 headspace, cap
+
+[19:33] them, and keep them in the fridge, and they'll last almost indefinitely that way because they won't further oxidize, right? Once the, once you've gotten all of the air, um, out of them. Right? But so I would say that and then you have a question in a 2nd about like how to make your own. I going to get to that. 1st caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Mike from Fort Collins, Colorado. How you doing? Good. are you? I got a question about using a circulator for making cheese. I'm wondering if you've ever done that and, you know, how I'd go about doing that. No, I mean, uh, so presumably the, for those of you that never made cheese before, one of the critical, um, one of the critical aspects
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+[20:12] of uh, the production is exactly the temperature to which the uh, curd is heated during the renting thing, because it determines a lot of things about the final pay structure. Presumably, that's why you want to do it, right? Yeah, exactly, because it's easy to scorch and stuff. Sure. So the problem with, I mean, the main problem with it is, is that, I mean, you can't directly circulate it or you'll completely gum up the
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+[20:39] works and, you know, you don't want to have that much movement in the thing. So, you know, you could do, um, bath and bath. Do you know what I mean? Where you where you stick a, like a stainless steel, like half hotel pan into a, like a
+
+[20:54] Lexan, you know, put it up with water, clamp the, clamp the hotel pan down to the Lexan
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+[20:59] with spring clamps so that doesn't pop around because I'll tell you what that's irritating, having it happen to me many times.
+
+[21:05] And then circulate it. The problem is, is that your heat transfer is going to be quite limited. So, I mean, not limited, but in other words, when you're heating with a flame or something like that,
+
+[21:18] right? You know, you're using a large delta T and a huge, in a large thermal input in there to get the temperature up relatively quickly.
+
+[21:25] Now, you'll get a relatively large thermal input, but your delta T between what you want in the curd and what you're heating with is going to be, you know, minuscule.
+
+[21:34] Now you can set the water bath, like 10 degrees Celsius higher than you want to go, and then just monitor very carefully, and you won't scorch, but you still have the problem that you might overheat it. And then at the end, you can turn it turn it down so that it gets up. But that's an easy way to do it. Now, if you, for some reason, wanted massive circulation, once you, once the stuff breaks and you, and you have
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+[21:54] whey and reasonable sized particles, you can wrap a, um, you can wrap a circulator in
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+[21:59] cheesecloth, I don't know that I'd recommend it, though, because I've never seen a recipe that requires that much agitation like a circulator would
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+[22:07] provide. You know what I'm saying? I don't know what it would do to the structure of it, to have it, like, literally pumping through like that. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I feel like all recipes want it to be pretty stagnant. Yeah. I mean, or like, you know, such stirring to the extent that they want to, you know, accomplish certain
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+[22:24] things or if you're cutting the, uh, or if you're cutting the curd apart, like in a cheddaring process or any
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+[22:29] one of those things or you're breaking it, but not like constant pumping around. I've never seen a recipe that advocates constant pumping around. You know what I mean? Yeah, I haven't either Yeah. But try the bath and bath and give yourself like a, like a, like a Delta T of like maybe 10 C, uh, and then when it starts getting close, you can turn it down and then you can like soak it at whatever temperature you want for, you know, however long you
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+[22:49] want. I mean, the circulator is fantastic for that. Cool. I'll give it a try what you guys know it goes. Yeah, good luck. Tweet us over and tell us what happened. Cool thanks. All right, cool. Back to Ivan. Okay, so now where we last left you, Ivan. I was trying to help you keep your vermouth lasting longer. And by the way, when you come to the United States, buy yourself some, because we have an amazing selection of
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+[23:09] vermouth nowadays down here that are delicious and buy some and bring them home and then, you know, trade them on the street for sandwiches. Uh, but you, you continue. I've looked at recipes online and they all suggest boiling the botanicals in a bit of the wine for about 10
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+[23:24] minutes and then mixing it with the rest of the wine, sugar and fortifying with brandy. The problem is this would also yield a full bottle size, which would end up going equally stale. Although I told you, you could solve that problem by putting them in like micro bottles and then only using what you need.
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+[23:39] Also, uh, a vacuum van on the top of the bottle in between uses in the fridge
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+[23:44] uh, is uh, is also helpful with that. Okay, I thought a possible solution would be to infuse the botanicals in the brandy at room temperature, filter
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+[23:54] them, and then have the vermouth base that would last much longer. In this way, if I have a glass of white wine left over. I could just mix in inadequate proportion of vermouth base and sugar, and have a truly small batch of homemade vermouth. As a side benefit, I could use the same base for sweet or drive or moose just by altering the amount of sugar, and whether it gets caramelized or not. Do you think this procedure makes sense? Are there any issues I should take into consideration? And as a side note, the spice urban ingredients change a lot from recipe to recipe, but other than wormwood, which, you know, you don't actually technically need wormwood, but wormwood is the source of the word,
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+[24:23] vermot, wormwood, you know, vermot. Anyway, I don't even know what language I'm imitating, some sort of dramatic thing. Okay, do you think there are any can't miss botanicals in a vermouth looking forward to having a move forward cocktail with my own product? because you are partial to the Martinez? Uh, well, I mean, I like, uh, I like, uh, vermouth and, um, you know, that kind of
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+[24:44] apertif thing with, uh, I like, with quinine in it, you know, like kinato with quinine. And you can get the bark, uh, Conchona bark, or you can buy. I mean, I would do that. That's probably easier to work with. But, you know, classic things. People put things like oregano and rosemary and stuff, but
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+[25:01] nastachia's making a vegan face over there. But you can also put in sweeter things like vanilla or citrus peels are very popular. I like classic other things like gentian. I like orris, but I don't think that's classic. I don't think people would normally put Orisin, but I like Oris, but you gotta be careful with it. I like things like fenigree. But you could add almost anything. You know, the issue is you don't, if you add like a 1000000 different things. You get that kind of spice store smell. Also, bear in mind that when you are using these botanicals, the quality of the botanical varies widely depending on the source and therefore the strength of it. So it's very difficult to follow a recipe written in grams. That's made with a dried spice because the actual potency of that dried spice can vary over, you know, I wouldn't say
+
+[25:43] an order of magnitude, but at least a factor of 2 or 3 times, right? And they can be very different. So like I like coriander a lot. And so, but there are various different kinds of coriander, some have more of a citrusy note and some don't. So you just gotta be careful with that. Now back to your regular questions. Can you steep it in the high proof? So the reason that they ask you to do it in the low proof and then for the fortification is to make it last longer, okay? And to bolster it. The reason they have you infuse it in the uh, in the wine 1st and then add the other stuff is so that you don't boil away too much alcohol, right? That's the reason. Sugar's also going to add to the preservative. So you could, uh, you know, you could seal a, seal a bag or seal
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+[26:23] a, a flameproof bottle with a cork. seal it so that it can build pressure and explode because that would be dumb, and you could heat it there without evaporating alcohol. And that's the way I do hot infusion of liquors all the time. very, very careful that you're not hard sealing a container that can explode when you
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+[26:38] put, because the, the liquor is going to boil at a much lower temperature than the water. And you can infuse things that way. And you could have an herbed base. Uh, you know, so, you know, there are like very bitter herbed uh, drinks like Swedish basket drop bar, which is like this incredibly bitter like uh, wormwood uh, thing. And presumably you could add it to wine. I don't think the result's going to be exactly the same because infusing a lower proof is going to provide a different result from
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+[27:02] infusing a higher proof. However it might be delicious. You never know. I would, you know, I would, I would assume that the results are going to be different. Every time you change how you're infusing something, what the alcohol level is, the temperature level, the length of infusion, all things change. So you might be able to get a delicious, um, product, but I don't know that you'd get the same product, uh, you know, as a classic, classic
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+[27:23] made vermouth. And also, these remoose are going to want to sit together and marry a little bit before they get totally integrated.
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+[27:29] So I'm going to think that you're not going to get a 100% the same result, but you might get a delicious ones. I mean, it sounds what you're doing is more akin to, uh, making more akin to making a bidders and then adding the bidders to
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+[27:41] the, um, to the wine. Although a dilute bidders because you're going to be adding more than you would for a bidders of a couple of shakes. It makes sense to us. Anyway, I hope that helps. I don't think that was very helpful, but there you have it. That's what I got. That's what I got. Um, Ryan Bone. Okay, you know what? Ryan Bowen wants questions about cookbooks, but I'm going to do that last because I'm probably going to spool off into Never Never Land, right? That's because that's what I do. Yeah, okay. Ryan, we're going to get you last. Bob writes in. Thinks that we should name the torch thing Torch trap. Torch trap. But sounds like I'm being trapped, though. Sounds like, and also, uh... Right. Although, I mean, it is descriptive, but like, you know, people are like, why would I want to be
+
+[28:23] trapped? I don't want to be trapped. I want to be set free, right? This is what, like, Bob, this is what, what happens when you're dealing with
+
+[28:29] people, like, you'll think you have something really good, and they'll be like, then like one idiot is like, no, no, this is why any of you out there are in the, in the, like, think you're
+
+[28:38] going to have kids in the near future. Don't tell anyone outside of your partner what the heck names you're thinking of. Because you know what? You don't want to hear it. And by the time you name the kid, no one's going to be like, that name sucks because they can't. They can't. So like, like we have the classic problem here of too many outside, uh, people. You know what I mean? And then like, so I'll give you a classic example of that. Remember the, uh, the, where they Erst and Young, they used to be, whatever they used to be. I don't know, Anderson, whatever it was, the accounting like firm, the consulting firm, right? They're now called Accenture. And that's what happens when you have a name by committee, Accenture. I don't like that name. Do you like the name stars? Accenture. No, it's bad. Bad. I mean, no offense if any listeners, I'm not saying the company is bad. And the person who won that won a huge amount of money, I think, for getting the name right. So they're laughing all the way to the bank. But, you know, I just, I just don't think it's a, you know, accenture. eccentric. eccentric. So it's so named by committee, am I right? Name by committee. Sounds like maybe it could be a car. Maybe. Although I know the clamp that we're making to sell the torch thing ain't no one going to change the name of that. That thing's a jed clamp. It's a jed clamp so that I can say to someone, go jed clamp it. You know what I'm saying? And I don't care. I don't care. People are like, but I don't get that joke. I don't care if you get it or not. It doesn't matter to me. It's a jet clamp. You see how easy it is when you have a conviction about something? Makes life so much easier. Uh, Sam writes in, about Sam
+
+[30:03] KB, in fact, writes in about Chicha. This one got Stas a little queasy because she never thought about it. But here we go. Cooking issues crew. I'm 5 months into a year-long research project in the Ecuadorian Amazon. That kicks some serious butt, right? Yeah, the Amazon. I've never been to the Amazon. I gotta go. You know, I'm fascinated by that. You know, I've been to Columbia a bunch of times, but never down to the Amazon reason or to the Choco. Although apparently, if I go to the Choco, I won't come back alive, like, I might come ship back as a food product, but I'm not
+
+[30:32] going to like, Choco is like completely, you know, like, it's like everyone, everyone from Colombia,
+
+[30:37] I know you're talking Ecuador, not Colombia, but everyone in Colombia is like, well, what do you think about Choco? Oh, amazingly beautiful. Can I go? No. You know what I mean? It's like not controlled by anyone. It's crazy. Because, anyway, whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. Okay, I've had the opportunity to eat some pretty amazing foods, including fried
+
+[30:52] grubs, smoked cured monkey. You know, that's the one thing I can't cosign, although you explain later, but I can't cosign
+
+[30:59] them, I can't do it. I can't do much. Crocodile. Uh, Ara Paima, which is the largest freshwater fish in the world and damned ugly. So ugly. Yeah, Google that thing, Styles. I'm like, you know, for A-R-A-P-A-I-M-A, a big, ugly freshwater fish. And a number of four-legged animals, I cannot identify. I like that you stay away from the two-legged animals just in case. Um, okay. Can't identify. While some of these animals are threatened with extinction, extinction, I'm only consuming them while living in indigenous communities whose hunting practices may actually support conservation efforts. In addition to these animals, I have been consuming copious amounts of chicha, not corn chicha, but boiled a yucca, cassava root, which
+
+[31:44] women, and only the women, chew, spit into clay pots, add water to it, and let ferment for up to 4 days. The teacher is slightly sour, mildly alcoholic, and has a
+
+[31:54] thick whey like texture, uh, not way like, you know, the,
+
+[31:58] like kind of, you know, Mexican word for like, you know, hombre, like, way
+
+[32:03] like, way in milk and way. Yeah, the fish is ugly. With a noticeable saliva undertone. It's actually quite good. My question is, how would you mimic this and reproduce the saliva undertone in the United States, as my assumption is serving human saliva would neither be well received nor legal. Not sure the legality of using animal saliva either. Probably not going to be okay. But if we can eat tongue or blood sausage or horse tartare. Well, remember, the horse tartar thing was a mistake. People weren't supposed to be eating that. That was, you know, what's it called? fraud in the Europe. I don't really see why, although, you know, it's legal. You could have it. Anyway, I don't really see why we couldn't eat fermented llama saliva. I'm interested in experimenting with Chicha and other cooking applications besides just using it as a drink. Let me know what you think. Love the show, Sam KB. Okay, 1st of all, before I get into your question. Uh, a lot of lot of, uh, hoo-ha recently over the lion. someone was trying to outlaw eating a lion. And so we got a bunch of calls yesterday because we wrote a post a long time ago where one of the things we ate was lion. And so everyone called me to expect me to be some rabid defender of eating lion meat. And in fact, we no longer buy meat from the butcher that we got that from Zeimer's because
+
+[33:15] it found, it turns out that, uh, you know, went to jail for for unsavory kind of sourcing and practice. We don't use it anymore. But it's an interesting idea. Everything's coming around. Everything's like weird. Everything's coming up weird, like lion meat and weird meats these last couple of days, right? stuff? Very strange. Very strange. Okay, back to chicha. The book that you want to look at is unfortunately extraordinarily expensive. It's like $375 on Amazon and, you know, not that I advocate you downloading illegal PDF copies. I was not able to find an illegal PDF copy. However, you can get all the relevant information by going between Google Books and
+
+[33:51] Amazon and they both preview different pages so you can paste together the, and that's by the way, that's the classic trick. Is you look it up on the Google books and their previews are different from the ones on
+
+[34:01] Amazon and then I've also looked in international Amazon sites to get previews in between those 2 to try and piece
+
+[34:07] together like pieces of information I need. But here's what you need. The handbook of indigenous fermented foods. 2nd edition, revise and expanded by Steinkraus. All right? And Stein Krauss devoted a career to like really, like, this is a really kind of amazing book. Uh, so they have a section on, uh, on Chicha. Uh, and it's mainly about maize, uh, chicha, but it goes into the whole um, production. Now, here's the thing. So with May's teacher, there's 2 ways to do this. So the reason the saliva is working here is that your mouth has amylace enzymes. Amylase enzymes or enzymes that break down starch, well, they break down starch into sugar. And your mouth has them. So what they do is they chew on starch containing items that usually have been ground and cooked,
+
+[34:55] right, so that your mouth can act on them, right? Not dry. Or sometimes just, I guess, if the flour, I think, is cooked beforehand, I have to go read it again. You chew on it, and then you let it dry while the ammalay stuff is working. You then grind that, mash it like you would, typical mash thing. The enzymes from your mouth will, you know, degrade the starch during that
+
+[35:19] process, to sugar. The product is boiled, to concentrate the sugars, and then ferment it. Okay. The other way to do it, that'll work with corn, but not with cassava, is to actually germinate the corn the same way that you would germinate barley malt. When you germinate, you activate the mlace enzymes in the corn itself, and you can then make chicha that way. So, um, what you're going to have to do is you're not, I think you're going to get to use the saliva. And this is, by the way, not just in South America. This is traditional in all places that had starches and wanted to convert them
+
+[35:52] to alcoholic beverages, especially places that did not have grains that would germinate and provide other forms of
+
+[36:01] amylase enzymes. So this is traditional in many cultures, to chew on starched things. And for some reason, it's usually the women. isn't that weird? Is it because the women are normally cooking or is it just because men are gross? I don't know. It's weird. It's usually women. In South America, apparently it's usually the older women. In some cultures, it's the younger women. We're weird. Anyway. Uh, so uh, here's the bad news uh, for you. And this guy, Escobar, in 1977, did his PhD thesis at Cornell University on Chicha fermentation, all
+
+[36:35] right? And this is on page 405 of that book I was telling you about on indigenous fermented foods. And he produced both germinated. Now, remember, this is maze, but so it's not directly related to cassava, but produced both germinated chicha and salivated chicha up there in at Cornell.
+
+[36:52] Both products were sun-dried and ground in a powder mill. The flowers produced were then extracted with water in the proportion of one kilo water, 250 grams of flour,
+
+[37:00] 75 Celsius with constant stirring, the extracts were then filtered through a muslin cloth, and they were duplicated, blah, blah, blah, and they were then fermented for
+
+[37:09] 6 days. Now here's the bad news for you. Chicha prepared by the salivation procedure was clear yellow in color and it had an alcoholic flavor resembling apple cider. Chicha prepared from germinated maize was darker in color, more turbid, and has slightly acid taste. Both the teachers were suitable for consumption after only 2 days of fermentation. The salivated chicho is judged superior in flavor. So I don't know what to do about that. We could probably find, look, you can just buy the enzymes now. So maybe germination does other things to the flavor, but you can just go buy the enzymes now. So you could probably get some of the amylase enzymes that are used by people like vodka makers who are taking potatoes and turning them into
+
+[37:49] vodka and use one of those amylase enzymes. We tried to order one once, but we never got one in. They are not the same as the brewers diastatic amylace things because they have kind of a more broad spectrum functionality and they work better.
+
+[38:01] There's there's 2 main amylases. amylase and alpha amylase, and you can't be sure which one you're getting when you get at a homebrew shop. So we're trying to source the really good deal. Maybe that would make a good spit like chicha. I don't know. Good question. Love those kind of questions. Speaking of, last week, we had a question on avocados about circulating them to get rid of the polyophenol oxidases, and JM writes
+
+[38:22] in, and said, just want to share that at my restaurant, we routinely circulate avocados in their skins for 50 Celsius for an hour, and
+
+[38:28] they're then indefinitely free of all browning problems. Regards JM. good to know. I would have thought you had to go much higher because in some other things, polyphenol oxidaste is not degraded for until much higher temperatures are reached. So it's good to hear that that works. Someone else give a test, give me a call back. Blake writes in, why is my stock so sweet? He says, why does my? I think, man, you know, maybe one. Blake. Uh, man. Why does my reduced chicken stock tastes sweet? It is white chicken stock reduced to a sauce, and thicken made to a sauce to thicken made with conventional chicken wings, carrot, celery, and onion.
+
+[39:03] The stock is not sweet before reduction. Okay, here's what's going on. Oh, it is late, but thank you for previous self with Zabayon. Here's what's going on. Carrots have a lot of sugar in them and onions have a lot of sugar in them, and especially as you reduce it, The kind of natural pungent flavors of the onion are gonna dive back. And the only thing that's going to be remaining is the sweetness. So what I would do is drastically and carrots the same way. I would drastically reduce, well, not the same way, it's not the same, but the sugar is going to taste more concentrated as it goes. And the same way that if you add salt to something and then reduce it, it tastes too salty. If you add sugar to something and reduce it, it can taste too sweet. So I would dial back your vegetable specifically your onions and your carrots. That's what's going on. I mean that's the only thing I can think of. You're not adding extra sugar to it. So it's a question of concentration. But give that a try, see what happens. Rolf Wynn writes in, Dear Miss Hammer. I like that. Dear Miss Hammer. Uh, thought of a name for the kick, uh, for the project, Torch Tamer. What do you think, like lion tamer? Torch tamer? Any thoughts? That was the least enthusiastic sound I've ever heard in my life. She's like, yep. You can't you can't help it. I don't know. I don't like I'm just reading. a conduit here. Keep up the great work. Show is one of the best out there. thank you so much Tim Halibur writes in about rice cookers. Would love to have one device for rice cooking and pressure cooking. Thumbs up or thumbs down on the Fagor stainless steel 6 quart multi-cooker. That's an electric pressure cooker rice cooker. Look, if it works, then I think, like, why not have
+
+[40:37] it, although it has happened that I've wanted to pressure cook and cook rice at the same time in my house, that happens actually more often than you'd
+
+[40:43] think, because a lot of times you want rice and you want a brace thing to go with it and the fast brace thing. So a lot of times having a pressure cooker and a rice cooker can be useful. I happen to think that the zoji Rushi, fuzzy, uh, neuro fuzzy, like,
+
+[40:54] logic induction rice cooker that I own that's, like, you know, 8 years or nine, 10, No, I don't know, it's old. I happen to think that that's one of the greatest pieces of kitchen equipment I own and like I would not trade my zoji Rushi for almost like any one of my pieces of kitchen equipment because it's so awesome and can hold rice for so long without any scorching or bad effects.
+
+[41:12] I love it so much. The other thing is, on it, I've read on the
+
+[41:17] internets that that Fager pressure cooker, electric pressure cooker doesn't get up to a full 15 PSI, which means you are going to be limited.
+
+[41:24] Your recipes will not cook. Some recipes want that 15 PSI, uh, and the flavor is going to be different and recipes won't necessarily be the same because it won't reach the same pressure. So bear that in mind. But I'm not giving that a thumbs up or thumbs down. If you're handy, you might be able to modify it like I did to my cuisinart to get higher pressures. And you can see how I don't recommend you do that on the blog, which is back up. Okay. At Huggernaut writes in on ice. At cooking issues a while back, you mentioned you were discussing ice program at BDX and people are interested. I'm interested. Oh, I don't have enough time to talk about the ice program. But I promise you at Hugger Not, Nastasia is now writing down. She's just punching her keyboard with like all 5 fingers at once like it's a child keyboard, which I guess it is. But the, uh, that we'll get that next week. Okay. Uh, pair Nielsen writes in on kombucha. pronounced like the fruit pear, but with a Scottish accent. I can't do Scottish off the cuff. Jersey I can do. I can, but not like off the cuff. Norwegian. Hello, Jack. Nastasia and Joe and the guy who answers the question, which would be me. After buying the art of fermentation, my kitchen has been filling up with various yeast and bacteria
+
+[42:28] experiments. I've been doing some kombucha concoctions and I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I've made a lemon verbena version after reading the Nordic food lab post about kombucha. Now I have 2 scobies and I'm keen on expanding my experimentation. Do you have any suggestions for other things I can try to ferment using it? I'm going to try coffee, although apparently I need to throw away the Scobi afterwards. Love the show keep up the work. Uh, oh, by the way, so I looked at the Norda Food Labs. They are awesome. I looked up. They were doing kombucha on a bunch of different things. Kombucha, what a Scobi is, is a symbiotic, what is it, community,
+
+[42:59] yeast and bacteria? I't know, bacteria and yeast. It's basically acetobactor. There's a form of acetobactory that forms a cellulose kind of pad to make this kind of like scobi thing. And then in it are other acetobactor living, which create, you know, acetic acid. And also, um, yeasts and other bacteria that generate other flavors and things. The idea is you take black tea or green tea or whatever. Uh, you sweeten it so that the yeast has something to eat. They produce, then they ferment it, they make flavors plus ethanol, which is converted the vinegar by the acetobactric bang, kombucha, and people think it has health benefits, blah, blah, blah. I haven't done a lot of experiments on it because, and this is the one case where I'm like Nastasia. Nastasia hates anything other people like. This is one of those things where like all of a sudden all these people were like, I love this, I love that. And so I was like, I'm not going to research it. crap on it. But I feel like maybe that's against, like, it's against my better nature, so I'm going to go research. I read a bunch of stuff on the internet about it. Um, I would try, I mean, here's what I haven't seen people try yet. I would try cocoa. The problem is, is that cocoa butter, like get defatted stuff because fats can go rancid over long storage, but I don't think you're going to have a problem because cocoa butter is very resistant to rancidity.
+
+[44:12] Uh, yeah, but, uh, like defatted cocoa might be interesting because it has a lot of the same uh, polyphenols that tea has, which is one of the things that, you know, I
+
+[44:22] guess, I don't know. There's interactions there, which is, you know, also, I guess, why coffee is interesting. So I would try things like that, but I'm going to try to think more about it maybe over the next couple of days. I will think about it. I'll talk to Dan Felder from Momofuku's food lab there because he's been kept in
+
+[44:38] fermentation and I'm sure he's kombuchafied everything in the world. There's an interesting article there on performing kombucha, on the internet, is what I mean, not from Dan, on performing kombucha, fermentation
+
+[44:50] on, get this, milk. Whoa. Milk. Apparently got some interesting, interesting results. Okay, uh, Elliot Pavinell, you write about uh, caramelized tomato. I going to have to get you next time because we're about to get stabbed out here. with time. Uh, John uh, John Riper from uh, wait. Oh, from Seattle. My thing says Seattle, Brooklyn. I like, there's a Brooklyn in Seattle. That's crazy. No, it's coming to Brooklyn and wants to know, right? This spring, I'd like to spend 3 to 4 days exploring Brooklyn, hitting spots to epitomize that part of the world and seeing people in places that would be
+
+[45:22] memorable, even if they were somewhere else on the planet, finding a great bagel or barista would be time well spent. Artisans at the top of their craft, historic spots with a story to tell, and artworks off the beaten path would all be good. Anything food related is especially interesting. If you want a visitor to stay at Brooklyn for the rest of his life. I've seen the best of what it has to offer. Where would you take them? All right. I congrats to Roberta's for the bona petite shout out. Well, come to Roberta's. to go to Blanca, right? We're going to meet with John. We invited him to Roberta's Aaron and I, and then maybe you guys will sit down with him, hang out, have a
+
+[45:52] pizza, and, you know, give him a good list when he gets here. But if he's looking for a barista that'll change his life, I've got 2 words. Indie Jesus. Indie Jesus pulls a good shot of espresso? Yeah, he started as a barista and he became a server. And he's good? Well, you know. Yeah. In indie format. Yeah. Okay. Oh my god, we're gonna we're gonna get hit with this. Okay, so also, like, obviously, Andy Ricker Pockpock is a place you should go. Um, there's a lot of places. Well, look, we'll give you a list when you when you when you come, because we're going to, I guess we'll talk more about it. I always say fets out too. Yeah, a fun time. Yeah? All right. I mean, I don't enjoy fun times. just kidding. Okay, so on the way out because Jack's going to pull my cord in a second. Ryan Bone writes in. I'm a computer science and engineering student. When I found out about modernist cuisine. I was blown away with the applications of technology and the scientific method in cooking. This got me really interested in cooking, so I started playing around with stuff, convinced my parents to get me the
+
+[46:49] at home version of modernist cuisine, good job, parents, and have generally had a fun time, but I feel like I'm missing a lot of foundations in cooking. I got Michael Roman's book, ratio, and I've learned a fair amount about baking from that, but I know there's more I'm missing.
+
+[47:01] Do you have any recommendations on books or resources to cover the foundations and fundamentals of cooking in a more scientific way rather than a sort of prescriptive recipe type way? Thanks, Ryan. Okay, listen. I mean, on food and cooking, by Harold McGee, just get that. But here's what I'm saying. There aren't that many books out there that treat things from a completely scientific perspective. And in addition, you know, like people who do present things, chefs who present things from a scientific
+
+[47:29] perspective often get it wrong. No offense chefs. And so one of the interesting things to do is to read old encyclopedic cookbooks and see how crazy, for instance, their nutritional advice
+
+[47:38] is or how crazy their explanations for why X, Y, and Z cooking technique works. Instead, I would read McGee for the science. I would read modernist cuisine for new techniques. I would go on all the blogs on the internet, but for the fundamentals, I still recommend going and getting books by people who
+
+[47:56] were just freaking awesome cooks.
+
+[48:00] And what you want to look for, there's clearly books out there that are, as you say, just prescriptive recipes.
+
+[48:05] But you don't necessarily need the science when you're learning. What you need is someone who has a lot of experience cooking and explaining to you why they do things. You need to learn ways of thinking. So any of the old people that you that you respect, right? so Peter Peterson writes a bunch of amazing cookbooks. For instance, he has one on sauces. It's great. A lot of times he has explanations in science that I don't agree with, but you're learning the experience of how to think like a cook through their
+
+[48:33] eyes. Like the old uh, 2 volume color version of Jacques Papin's way to cook Knopp from the 80s. amazing. Um, in terms of like how to think, like, see how he thinks. Uh, if you want like high-end stuff. The original French laundry cookbook was amazing because it was showed how Keller approached thinking at the French laundry. Um, you know, like, these are the kind of books that, uh, I would look
+
+[49:01] at now, I'm going to try to think of a more exhaustive list of ones that have been really helpful to me.
+
+[49:04] I mean, I started cooking a long time ago. So the ones that are helpful to me might be dated. I got Julia Childs, uh, whatever it's called, the the way the way to cook or whatever, that the big one she had, which, you know, kind of was one of my 1st great cookbooks, Giuliano Bujali's, uh, one of, you know, his larger Italian books I've always
+
+[49:21] had had with me. Uh, and so, you know, you get one or 2 tomes like this and they're not teaching you the science, but they teach you, they teach you a mental framework for cooking. And that's what you should look for in a chef's cookbook, in chef's cookbook. So get a couple chefs cookbooks, like real chefs, get a couple of teachers cookbooks. So like Julia Child was a teacher, uh, you know, great teacher and Shaq Pupin, great teacher, you know, from those
+
+[49:45] Dave Peterson, great teacher, uh, get some of those teaching styles to learn, uh, you know, teaching books to
+
+[49:51] learn the kind of way of thinking. And don't worry so much about the science back. In fact, whenever you read anyone's stuff, you should be questioning the science behind it. And the only, you know, the only, then when you need information like that. Go to go to McGee. And look, see what he says, right? All right, cooking issues.
+
+[50:12] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Cooking issues!
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues!
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookie issues. She is coming to you late and live in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage
+
+[1:08] Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Joining the studio with nostalgia Hammerlope. How you doing? Good. Good. I got Joe back from on tour. Joe, how you doing? I'm doing great How it going, guys? Going well. We have no Jack today because Joe thought he just handled it all by himself now that he's coming back. Oh, Jack's having a beer. That's fine. So Joe, how was the tour? It was really, really great. Went to lots of awesome cities I'd never been to before, Chicago, Memphis, Buffalo, got to, you know, hang out and play some
+
+[1:37] tunes. So yeah, yeah? Did you have any of the, did you have beef on whack when you were in Buffalo? No, I ate Buffalo wings, though? Yeah, all right. They were okay. You know what? The thing, it didn't travel from Buffalo is beef on whack, which is you take your roast
+
+[1:49] beef, and you have the juice, the dipping sauce there, but they put it on a roll, and the roll is covered in salt and caraway, which is the
+
+[1:57] weck part of beef on whack. And it's a local kind of buffalo thing, and you know, that area of northern New York. And I don't know why the heck it hasn't spread because that stuff is delicious. Got to try it, I guess. Yeah, next time you're in Buffalo, you know, look, Buffalo Wings, whatever, I guess you have to have some because that's what they're known for because they put the word buffalo in it.
+
+[2:16] But if they'd called it buffalo beef on whack, maybe it would have sold more. Yeah, the marketing was off on that one. Yeah, no American, like, whack. don't want that Stas, do you want something called beef on Weck? What about like buffalo roast beef sandwich? That sounds good. That sounds awesome. Yeah. All right. So Buffalo, anyone from Buffalo out there? Remarket your beef on whack. So how many dates did you play? Um, we, it was six, it was 6 on the way down. Then we went to Southwest, Southwest. We played 5 shows in 3 days South by Southwest and then drove back up in 3 days from, I was in Arkansas like 2 days ago. It was crazy. Are you a crowd surfing sort of fellow or no? Generally, yes, but I don't think that it just didn't happen this tour. Really? weren't feeling it? It wasn't it wasn't necessarily me that wasn't feeling. I was trying to get everyone hyped. It energized and sometimes it's a little hard. Some people just, you know, they're sleepy. Well, you know, a lot of buffalo wings. You know what? up north. So Piper, who works with us at the BDXEQ, he was saying that he got mad at a really famous
+
+[3:16] rapper who showed remain nameless. was Buster Rhymes, who went to go play, you know, up near where he
+
+[3:22] lives, and Buster Rhymes was mad because, you know, all these kids were just sitting and listening
+
+[3:27] to, to, you know, him rap, and he's like, Buster was like, what the hell? Get up. Because I think, you know, and the, you know, the, the, the feeling up there from the Vermonters is that, you know, if we don't want to get up and dance doesn't mean we're not enjoying the
+
+[3:39] music. I don't think they understand that give and take. It's hard for someone to give their best concert if there's not a lot of movement in the audience. know what I'm saying? Exactly. Yeah. people don't get it. Hey, look, here's the thing, right? Yeah, sure. As a musician, it's your responsibility to kind of go off as hard as you can no matter what the audience is like, but the fact of the matter is, if the audience is into it, they're going to get a better performance. period. human beings. It's not a record, not a record. Right? You're not a record. You're a person. Yeah, exactly. I have feelings too. Yeah, right. Bingo. So this in. Ziploc bags, people. S.C. Johnson, a family company. So, uh, we pop soupy pot. We pop Bam, Soupy Bot, from the Nomaku, sent someone who's one of his supporters on the
+
+[4:19] Kickstarter, because Wipas gotten a lot of flack over using the Ziploc bags, we're doing low temperature cooking, low temperature cooking. Most of you, I guess, who listen to this know what I'm talking about. It's cooking usually in a water bath at a very controlled temperature, and usually those temperatures are somewhere in the range of 54 to like 65 degrees Celsius occasionally higher for certain things for vegetables and whatnot.
+
+[4:40] But anyway, um, so cooking, uh, low temperature with a controlled water bath, uh, with ziploc bags. And this is a technique I've advocated for a long time, and there's been a lot of kerfuffles over it. And I got word from S.C. Johnson Wax, but you're going to have to stay tuned because I got a caller. I got to deal with. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. How you doing? Hey, it's Alvin. How are you? Oh, hey, doing well. Good. I just wanted to follow up. I sent in a question a little while ago about pop rocks. Oh yeah, sure. And, um, so specifically, what I kind of want to do is make a savory pop rock, I was thinking if I use something like isomalt, it'd be half a sweet, but I'd like to salt the heck out of it. And um, what I'm kind of after is like, I'm kind of like a Maldon large flake salt crystal, that pops. Is that possible? Okay, here's how pop rocks are made. So, uh, when you take your, when you, what they do is they take sugar and, uh, they heat it and turn it into, uh, you know, to candy temperatures, letting rid of, you know, the, um, what's it called,
+
+[5:42] the moisture. And they put it under extreme pressure with carbon dioxide at those temperatures. Then they let it set under extreme pressure. Then when they when they release the extreme pressure, bam, it explodes into pop
+
+[5:57] rocks. And so kind of the crystal type you get is the crystal type you get. You can't grow Malden style crystals in a pop rocks kind of a technology. So if you're okay with the crystal structure of pop rocks, then you're okay. Now you can, you, or it should say, you could make, I think, there's nothing, there's nothing
+
+[6:19] that in the chemistry of isomalt that leads me to believe otherwise, you could make pop rocks from isomalt.
+
+[6:26] Um, So you could do the pop rocks uh, with isomalt. You might put the salt in before you might put the salt in afterwards in the form of a powder, but there's nothing to leave me to believe that you can't do that. The problem is, is that I don't see any way that you, as an individual, even I can't. I've tried, believe me, I don't think that we can make pop rocks on our
+
+[6:50] own. I think there are companies that sell neutral pop rocks, which are just sugar, that you're supposed to then mix your own flavors in afterwards. Chef Rubber, I think, sells them. I don't know what their batch size is. There's no reason why you couldn't call them and say, if I'm willing to buy whatever your minimum bat size is. Could you just make it with isomalt once. You know what I mean? It's not going to ruin their equipment. You know what I'm saying? So it's just convincing whatever curmudgeon it is to do it, and they might even be willing to put in some, you'd see the flavors have to be heat stable.
+
+[7:18] That's the thing. So if you're going to put a flavor into it other than salt, which is clearly heat stable. It has to be a heat stable flavor. But there's, again, there's nothing, unless you were going to put in something crazy that they think they're not going to be able to clean out of their equipment. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't do it for you, assuming that you bought an entire batch from them. Yeah, £20 or something. Yeah, whatever it is. I don't know I don't know what their what their size is. And obviously they'll charge you more for it, but I have not figured out a way to do it on your own in a safe
+
+[7:47] manner. So far, I've never tried it. And so that's because of the pressure needed to set it under. You need to have a special vessel, I imagine, right? Oh yeah, a lot. You need a lot of Yes, yeah, it's a special vessel that can withstand heat at an elevated pressure. Now, I've done like a 100 PSI. No, I think it's I forget. been a long time since I've looked it up. I think it's higher. The highest I've ever set something with CO2 is 125 PSI when I was
+
+[8:16] doing I was doing Jell-O shots and I set them at 125 PSI and that is a sharp bubble, but it's not, but you remember when
+
+[8:24] you're when you're doing candy. The temperatures of the candy are much, much higher. You could, look, you could try it. You could, the problem is you can't do it in a normal soda bottle because soda bottle can't withstand that kind of
+
+[8:34] pressure, right? Okay, sorry, sorry, temperature. Here's what you could do. You can melt, if you have a Cornelius keg. The problem is Cornelius kegs only go up to about 125 psi. So what you would do is you'd melt out your candy and then, you know, you'd keep it hot, then you'd throw it into your Cornelius keg, put it under as high a pressure as the Cornelius keg can
+
+[8:54] take, and then shake it back and forth to agitate it and let it set. I think that's safe, right? Because it's all stainless. It's down at the bottom. It's going to be a nightmare to clean, but I don't think 125 PSI is
+
+[9:06] going to cut it. I mean, you can look it up and C, but I don't think 125 PSI is going to cut it. Cool. No, no, no problem. But if you do try it, remember, check to make sure you think it's safe
+
+[9:17] beforehand because I'm just thinking of this off the top of my head, but if you do try it and you're successful, that's something that everyone would want to know, so please send it on
+
+[9:23] in. I will thanks. All right, Alvin, see you soon. Okay. Back to SC Johnson Wax. Uh, a family company. Did you know that? Yeah. So anyway, what that means is they're not publicly owned. They run by a family. So, uh, the problem is, is that, uh, S.C. Johnson got back to, uh, Grant Aik, it's because of a video he was doing, uh, you know, for millennia, uh, using ziploc bags and low temperature cooking and said, don't do that.
+
+[9:48] At least that's what the word on the street is. And by word on the street, meaning Grant told me that. Uh, so then after that, there's a number of other chefs who were saying that, uh, you know, their impression is that ziplocs were unsafe to cook in, X, Y, and Z. And then because it became known that S.E. Johnson wasn't supporting it, a lot of other people were wondering why it wasn't supported. Long story short, I called up S.C. Johnson Wax, and S.C. Johnson Wax, the person who picks up the
+
+[10:13] phone was like, you know, press that big giant, oh my god, someone's asking a question that I need to ask one of my superiors about. And they kept pushing that big red button. I went up the chain, uh, until I finally got in touch with, um, uh, Michelle Johnson, I think no relation. I don't know. I don't know whether she is A. Johnson from the SC Johnson. It is a family company, but I don't know if she happens to be in the family. So here's what I said to her. Uh, she asked, you know, who, who, who from S.E. Johnson told me not to use Ziplocs. Here is my exact email to her. Howdy, Michelle. I was not contacted by S.C. Johnson, a chef colleague named Grant Aikitz was. There are several other chefs who also warned against using Ziplocs in low temperature cooking. And the word on the street is that S.C. Johnson does not support low temperature cooking and Ziplocs, probably because of the presumed contact with Grant. Here's what I know. This is me writing. Ziplocs are made of polyethylene with no plasticizers added. Ziplocs have a minimum of residual solvents compared with other polyethylene food grade films I've used. Ziplocs are rated by SCJ for reheating foods, and ziplocs are not rated for boiling primarily because of structural integrity issues, not toxicity issues.
+
+[11:15] Low temperature cooking uses thermostatically controlled water bass that are accurate
+
+[11:18] within 0.2 degrees Celsius, and the applications using ziplocs are always done at temperatures below 65
+
+[11:24] C. Um, Because some low temperature recipes cook for as long as 3 days, 72
+
+[11:30] hours up to 65 degrees C, some people think the bags will somehow become toxic after that length of
+
+[11:36] cooking. I disagree. Given these points, I would like it, I would like it. If S.C. Johnson could put their official stamp of approval on the use of bags or explain why I shouldn't teach people this
+
+[11:48] technique, best Dave. And here's what I heard back. Ready? This is from, uh, this is from Miss Johnson. Here is what they are. Uh, Ziploc. This is directly from S.C. Johnson Wax, a family company. Ziploc brand bags are designed to withheld, being held in high temperature water, including being used up to 82 degrees Celsius for up to 72 hours.
+
+[12:16] Boiling, so that's it. So, I mean, I wouldn't boil them, but, and I gave her the, I gave her the number 82. So, you know, that's where she's, it might go a little bit higher, but there it is. Direct. They are okay with Ziploc brand bags designed to with a stand being held in high temperature water, including being used up to 82 for up to 72 hours.
+
+[12:36] Bang, bib bang, bang. There you go. Safety use, according to the company, safety use, as far as I know, the one thing that I caution on is that they are not good for long-term preservation. I wouldn't count on them as being oxygen barriers in the way that you count on another bag. Uh, and especially because you're not packing it. using a vacuum, you're packing it using the water technique, but that's good news, right? So someone, please come back at me and tell me why I'm wrong. Call me an idiot. I sure you will. Hey Dave, I think we have another caller. Oh, yeah? Call her. You're on the air. Hey, Dave and Crude. Brian, San Francisco. How are you? Doing all right. How you doing? Good. Um, so I'm looking on ideas and food, and you can probably Google it at the same time as I am. Um, and they have a recipe for Meyer lemon vinegar there. And they say they say cut lemons, water, sugar, and yeast, and then throw them together for a few days, and a vat of
+
+[13:33] liquid starts bubbling. Then they strain out the solids and let the fermentation, uh, begin in the open air. And, um, My question is, is this is a pretty unique way of making vinegar. I've never seen this this before. Usually, you know, you have the vinegar mother, and some old wine, and so this is trying to create, I guess, a lemon wine, 1st with sugar, and so my questions are, um,
+
+[14:04] what do you, what do you think of this? Can I just use regular oiled yeast or do I need special, um, kind of yeast, like champagne yeast or, or something like that? Um, and then they take, uh, uh,
+
+[14:19] all the solids and separately, uh, lack of ferment them with onions and salt and pepper flakes as a, I
+
+[14:28] guess, some kind of condiment. Right. So, um, what do you think about this method for making like fruit vinegars? Like this lemon and how much sugar should yeast would I need to add? Right. Well, I mean, as to what yeast to use. I mean, I haven't studied the effect of, um, different yeasts on, um, vinegar
+
+[14:49] production, but for everyone who doesn't know how vinegar is made, here's what happens. You take some form of sugar, some form of fermentable, you ferment it into alcohol first,
+
+[15:00] right? Uh, and then after that, you, uh, acetobactor takes over, and acetobactor eats the alcohol that's produced and turns it into acetic acid, which is vinegar.
+
+[15:11] That's why vinegar has a low alcohol content, and that's why when you leave wine open, it turns to vinegar. Now, the tricks with vinegar is that obviously if your alcohol level is too high, then acetobactor can't
+
+[15:24] work, and if acetobactor can't work, then no vinegar,
+
+[15:29] right? Similarly, if you use preservatives or agents in your fermentation that prevent it from
+
+[15:37] turning that prevent the growth of acetobactor, no vinegar. So there's a couple of ways that you can go about it. One is a more traditional two-step process where you take an alcoholic beverage and then ferment it with a vinegar mother,
+
+[15:51] or, you know, or let it go naturally and produce, um, vinegar. That's 2 step process. Or you could do a one step process where you convert both the same at same time. So, for instance, a kombucha is roughly a, you know, a one step vinegar process where you have different strains of yeast and
+
+[16:13] bacteria and different strains of acetobactor making stuff. Now they're very particular strains of acetobactor, so they produce kombucha, right?
+
+[16:22] And it's not very acidic, kombucha compared to vinegar, right? So with their thing, presumably they're adding enough sugar to it, uh, that they're getting uh, the acidity level right. Now, in a regular fermentation, the yeast is vital to the, what particular yeast you use and the temperature at which you ferment is vital to the end result, right? Now, if you use a, if you pitch a yeast with, let's say, like Fleischman's, wherever you happen to have lying around, and you like the result, then the good thing is Fleischman's pretty consistent, right?
+
+[16:52] But typically you wouldn't pitch beer with Fleischman's because who would do that? You know what I mean? You'd get, you go to a homebrew shop and you would get, you know, Y yeast, like, you know, something that you like. Like you'd get like, you know, uh, I don't know, some, uh, like, uh, you know, a yeast that's designed to do like a pale ale or wherever you're working on, you know, and
+
+[17:09] you'd choose a temperature ratio you were working on, and then they would write, this one produces a lot of esters between the temperatures of 60 and 70.
+
+[17:16] you know, Fahrenheit. And so you'd choose your yeast bake based on that because it's fairly critical to the tape. Now, the other thing is, is that you're not ever typically dealing with a fermentation. It starts with such a high level of acidity as a lemon maceration. So I don't know whether that's affecting. I don't mean, I'm presumably everything's affecting it. sugar to it. Yeah, but I mean, like, yeah, I mean, the yeast is going to, I mean, some yeast is going to be, you're going to, you're changing how the yeast is going to react by increasing the acidity level. Uh, I mean, I'm not not saying you're going to kill these, but you're going to change it uh, based on how much acidity uh, you're you're adding. Uh, oh, and Elliot, Elliot Papineau writes in that, uh, what, what did he say? Just speak. ask the question. anyone interrupt you? speak, speak. Elliot Papineau asked ideas in food. What kind of yeast for the minor lemon vinegar? Oh, so they're asking so we don't know. And ideas in food said mantrache. Is that Montrose like... And Eliot said things. I don't know, that must be a yeast strain that I'm not familiar with. Oh, I think that's a kind of a yeast that's used for
+
+[18:19] champagne, which might be able to deal with the acidity. Okay, so there, yeah, because champagne, champagne must is high in acidity. So there you have it. So yeah, so they're doing that and they're doing a one step fermentation, but that works. Yes. Whether or not it's going to make you the best possible fruit vinegars, that I don't know. I mean, you know, you might want to do traditional ferment the fruit out 1st and
+
+[18:40] then, and then hit it with, uh, hit it with your acetobactor. They're clearly also using wild acetabactor strains because they're not adding a vinegar mother to it. unless they added some live vinegar that they already have to kick off the fermentation. Did they do that? Uh, they, doesn't say that they've done that at all here. Right. Um, so, uh, you know, maybe they need to let it get alcoholic enough 1st and then and then add the vinegar mother. Well, there's not going to be a lot of, uh, there's not going to be a lot of acetic fermentation at 1st because once you have a vigorous, uh, alcohol fermentation going,
+
+[19:15] there's constantly producing carbon dioxide, and the layer of carbon dioxide that's forming on top of the, um, fermentation will
+
+[19:21] prevent, uh, acetobactor from growing because acetobactor needs oxygen. That's why if you go to a distillery, they can have these giant vats of things that are fermenting in the open
+
+[19:31] air without them turning to vinegar because there's a constant production of carbon dioxide on the
+
+[19:37] top. Mm-hmm. Earth D. Okay, this sounds like it's going to be a fun experiment. Yeah, yeah. tweet us tweet us over and tell us how it works. Okay, cool. Thanks. Oh, one question. How much sugar do you think I would need to add in order to get it going? That's a good question. I mean, just don't go too high. It's been a long time since I've looked up the bricks that you need to add to something. I mean, I would probably have somewhere in the area of like fruit juices are usually somewhere at like 14, 15 bricks, something like
+
+[20:09] that. So maybe somewhere in that range. Okay. Right. thanks. All right, cool. Uh, thanks. All right. Elliot Pavineau wrote in before regarding caramelized tomatoes. I tried pressure cooking in my coon recon at full pressure, which is 15 PSI, 2nd ring, home canned
+
+[20:26] tomatoes for 40 minutes over the weekend. I used 3 quarts of product, which yielded 2 quarts of flesh and one quart of juice. I only added the flesh to the pot with one onion, one head of garlic, and 3 grams of baking soda. The result I was looking for was caramelized tomato sauce, but what I produced was more of a nicely flavored soup. Will I be able to achieve the desired effect using the technique, but adding time or lowering the pH? Well, I mean, I'm assuming you mean raising a pH. So you're adding the baking soda to you're adding the baking soda to the tomato to raise the pH when you're pressure cooking. And the reason to raise the pH when you're pressure cooking, I love what they do in modernist cuisine, for their butternut squash, whatever it is they do in that thing, is to, by raising the pH, by making it more alkaline, you are shifting the temperature at which myard reactions happen to a lower temperature, such as those that happen inside of a pressure cooker, and things do get appreciably
+
+[21:17] browner, and a pressure cooker do it to moderate reactions over fairly short periods of time. However, tomatoes are an extremely uh, extremely uh, acidic product. So a couple teaspoons of baking soda, I don't think is going to cut
+
+[21:31] it make it more caramelized. In fact, it's interesting. If you look at, I was looking at the women's Christians Temperance Union cookbook from 1900 from Kansas City because of a separate thing I'm working
+
+[21:42] on. And what was interesting to me is that I looked at a couple of their tomato soup
+
+[21:47] recipes, and all the tomato soup recipes that use milk in them, they have baking soda added, and the reason they have baking soda added, there is to decrease the acidity so that the milk won't
+
+[21:59] curdle, presumably. It's really actually interesting. I don't have time anymore to read old cookbooks, but, you know, I used to read constantly read old cookbooks and try and steal ideas that have become lost over time. But anyway, so, um, I don't think that the baking soda is going to help in that. Here's what I would do. I would pre-caramelize your potatoes, tomato potatoes, dunce. I would pre-caramelize your tomatoes before you do anything. I would just cut the tomatoes in half, roast them till you get rid of a lot of the
+
+[22:25] liquid and they start turning kind of dark and caramelized and then blend those in to make your to make your product because I think you're going to need to just reduce the water enough to get it to get that caramelized stuff before you make the soup.
+
+[22:38] Then pressure cooked it. I think it'd be delicious. What do you think, says? I think it sounds good. All right. See if that works. Let me know. Now, I got another question in. Uh, this one uh, is very interesting. I love questions like this because I had not thought about it before. Unfortunately, because it turns out it's a huge issue and I haven't thought about it before, I'm not going to be able to answer it today, but here it is. I want everyone to be thinking about this because it's very interesting. Mark Tinkleman writes in. High cooking issues crew. Mark from Philadelphia here. My question is about nanoparticles. I've seen a few articles here and there, and I gather they are food additives that are used in some industrial food to enhance flavor and
+
+[23:11] texture, and that they may be dangerous to health. I haven't seen anything that satisfactory explains what they are, how they made. So my questions are, what are they? Uh, one, could they be made or used in professional kitchen and what good would they be for? Thanks, Mark Tinkleman. Okay. I have to admit, I got so entranced with the thinking about the safety aspects of it that I haven't thought about how to make them
+
+[23:34] yet or what they would be good for. But nanoparticle, for those of you that don't know, are just extremely small and usually very
+
+[23:41] even sized particles, and they can be made a bunch of different ways. They can be made through, uh, like vapor deposition, so it goes from a vapor to, uh, to, you know, to a solid, at very, you know,
+
+[23:51] very controlled way, such that the particles are small. They can be made. By grinding, if you happen to have a grinding thing that they can grind well enough, although that's, you know, you don't, I don't, no one does that is normal. They can be made. But the easiest way, I think, that we would ever be able to make them is by making
+
+[24:09] emulsions, with very fine particle sizes in it, then when something's in an emulsion form, shifting it from a liquid to a
+
+[24:18] solid so that the, the, the droplets that are emulsified in, all of a sudden become a solid again. So a sol gel change, right? Then breaking the emulsion and you get the nanoparticles out. And I think that's how the majority of the nanoparticles, uh, that, you know, except for, I guess, things like the titanium. I't know how they make the titanium dioxide nanoparticles, which are the ones that are used in toothpaste to make things really bright. And they're used in sunscreen to shield you from the sun, titanium dioxide nanoparticles.
+
+[24:45] Anyway, and I don't know how they do silver, but the one that we'd be most likely to be able to make is ones that are based on Saul gel transformations like that. Here's the issue that's interesting and I hadn't thought about it. I started researching kind of safety and nanoparticles because to be honest, I had never thought about it before. And what's interesting is, is that you can take something that is safe to use that is a safe
+
+[25:08] product. And by decreasing its size sufficiently, You change the way it's absorbed in the body so that it might no longer be safe, right? And the problem with it is. And the reason I don't have an answer is that I'm going to have to spend a long time researching this because most of the articles that are anti-them,
+
+[25:25] uh, anti-nanoparticles in food are written by um, people that I think are biased, and most articles that are saying that you shouldn't worry about nanoparticles in
+
+[25:36] food also come from people that are biased. So far that I've found. And so I haven't been able to do enough research for my own,
+
+[25:44] uh, my own feeling to be able to make any statement, uh, one way or the other, but it definitely is something that I think needs to be looked at more than it is now.
+
+[25:53] Like, what are these things doing, right? Anyway, so thanks, Mark. And I will look more into it and expect to hear more blithering when I finally figure out what I think. Right? Uh, Peter Hirschman writes in about a name. couldn't find the email address for saying the comments, so I don't know who he sent it to, but here it is. The new torch tip appears to work by radiating infrared. This is talking about the torch that we're building. By radiating infrared and near infrared radiation, which makes it similar to an old-fashioned French salamander that was heated in a fire until red hot and then held over the food. The French name would be something like salamandre, Moderne, which wouldn't work with American audiences. Yeah, no crap, it wouldn't work with it. So how about salamander 21, a 21st century salamander? Well, everyone knows I like Sally, maybe Sally 21. I like Sally because it sounds friendly. Hey, Sally, sounds friendly. Salamander, by the way. I dont know. Did I talk about this already? Salamander. I used, I was taught when I was learning cooking that it was called a salamander because it used to have like a, some of them had a shape that was similar to salamander, but I don't think it's that from my research,
+
+[26:52] salamander is because of the markings on them. I've had a link, salamander, the, you know, the newt-like amphibian, has had a link with fire
+
+[27:01] since, uh, since recorded, since recorded history because I think because of the markings on it. So it used to be thought that salamanders were impervious to flame. And in fact, there were fake, people used to sell coats made out of salamander wool and everyone would see a sound man or knows they don't have wool or hair, but, you know, Europeans were some dumb back in the Middle Ages. So like they would import salamander wool coats from East from the, you know, from what the time is called, the Orient. You know what it was made out of Stas? asbestos So people are having these like asbestos things. And then when they would get dirty because Europeans are dirty back then. Hey, no offense. They would like throw them into the fire and they would get cleaned that way. It's pretty pretty, pretty cool, yeah? Anyway, Sally Sally 21? Anyway, well, think about it. Here's hoping that sales are good, so it doesn't become an endangered species. Thanks, Peter. Um, okay, Bob, Barriatua, which I got right last time, but probably not this
+
+[27:56] time, writes back in in response to a couple things we had on our show before. In response to the recent cooking issues inquiry about food science textbooks, I have found that Fenima's food chemistry is helpful and accessible. If you have a chemistry background, that is. I have that book. It's pretty good. I have an older version of it, and you can find it online pretty well if you want to look through it before you buy it.
+
+[28:14] And Fenimas is available extremely cheaply on ABE books or on bookfinder.com, if you're willing to get an older version of it. That's how I got mine. I also own a PDF because that's how I roll. Anyway, also, I started with modernist cuisine at home, which I found impressive, but was blown away by the detail found in the 5 volume
+
+[28:29] version. It is well worth the investment for anyone with a serious, interesting cooking science. Having spent nearly the same amount for single volume medical textbooks. It's a bargain. This is also Mirvold's point that if you go out to a super expensive meal, you can afford to buy modernist cuisine and it's worth it, that he actually said that to me,
+
+[28:45] almost verbatim. Um, And 2nd question, this is a 2nd comment, rather. This is in response to a podcast from a few months ago. The polycarbonate tub provided by William Sonoma with the polycience circulator is not the same tub that the polycience sends out on their
+
+[28:58] website. The precut polycarbonate lid sold on the polycience website will not fit the Williams Sonoma tub. Fortunately, any restaurant supply store that sells Canberro containers, sells a lid for the Williams Snoma tub, which is soft and nut, soft enough to cut a circulator a hole with a pair of
+
+[29:12] heavy duty scissors. I believe I paid $7 for it. Instead it's worth it, 7 bucks. Although, I tell you, the ones that I get cannot be cut with. Oh, I don't know what the William Snoma one is. If the William Snoma has that little plasticky one that fits on top, the red kind. Those can be cut with scissors. If you have the, um, the tubs that uh, we use that are, also made by Cambro, those lids can't be cut with scissors. So I think it depends on which kind you have. But anyway, thanks for that tip, Bob. It's good to know. Also, Stephen Rhodes writes in on the name. They fare to the show. When I say name, I mean the name of the Kickstarter thing that we're working on the, you know, the torch thing. I thought of a name for the Kickstarter project, Seer Wright. What do you think? Sally Stone. You like Sally? And then someone else wrote in on my on my Twitter. I forget who it was, because I don't have my Twitter up, but said we should, you know what they suggested? Sears all. And then was like, duh, it should be Sears all, because you like Saws all so much. And then he did a pound hash thing saying, did I miss anything?
+
+[30:04] I love Sears all. It's just that, you know, some of my partners believe that it sounds like Sears Roebuck, and therefore they don't like it, but I like Sears
+
+[30:11] all because does it sear some things, Nastasia? What does it sear? All things. Right. All things, all things. Okay, maybe we should take a quick break and then come back with some blistering finishing off. Cooking issues.
+
+[30:36] White Oak Pass is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat
+
+[30:45] abattoir, or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir.
+
+[30:50] slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality, meat and poultry, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years, a full circle return to sustainable
+
+[31:07] land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website. whiteoakpastages.com.
+
+[31:22] I like the way that guy says poultry. Don't you? I like the way that man says poultry. Poultry. I like that. Like, it's like, so anyway, I want to go buy some now. Hey, so for next week, it's Jack, Dave. We got a submission for the Hearst Ranch commercial contest. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah, I'm going to play it next week. Can't wait, as we know. As we know, my favorite, my favorite grass-fed beef song. Yeah, by far. It's tough to pick one, but... Okay. Marty writes in regarding his rice fermentation that we talked about on an earlier show. I wrote earlier about my homemade Chinese rice wine tasting like sweaty balls. I have since rectified the problem by incubating my fermenter with a terrarium heater
+
+[32:05] pad. huge difference. So the problem was he was doing it at too low a temperature too long as we suspected. But the resulting brew is still cloudy, and I have the issue of spritz, a slight effervescent carbonation. So my questions are as follows. I am fermenting the wine in a water sealed pickle fermenter. Is that better or worse than fermenting in an open pot? Open pot will have less pressure in it, but you're not sealing it probably enough to keep the, you're not probably sealing it enough to keep in the, uh, my brain fried. My brain fried. Keep in the CO2 and plus some air needs to get to it for that fermentation to work. I think, although you know, maybe not. It's been a long time since I've looked at it. But I don't think that's causing your spritziness. Is there a way to prevent the carbonation? It's annoying to me. No. You can, you can, uh, if you let it vent off enough, as long as you're making sure that no acetobactor is going to grow in it to make it more acidic, then you can let the carbonation go off, or you could
+
+[32:53] just, uh, apply a vacuum to it and zip the out, a zip the carbon dioxide right out of it. Like I did, like we did with the with champagne when we're testing it. Um, is the cloudiness a flaw? Can I clarify the wine? I tried filtering it through coffee filters, but nothing came out. I have no access to a centrifuge. Whether or not you can clarify, it depends on what the cloudiness say is, unfortunately, I suspect that what is causing the cloudiness in your case is
+
+[33:14] starch and starch isn't very well clarified by techniques like agar clarification, as well as
+
+[33:21] well as other cloudy things are like proteins. But if it is starch, it will settle. If you let it sit for, you know, like a week or two, uh, it should settle out and then you could probably decant the clear stuff off the top, but it's not a flaw. If it's not starch, then you could just do an agar clarification, go on the cooking issues website, which is working again, thanks to Paul Adams, our buddy. You can look up clarification techniques and get a technique with Agar that doesn't require a centrifuge. Now here's what I'm really cool. I like this a lot. Uh, Morton Matson wrote in last week about quail eggs. Do we speak to him or do we write? I think he wrote. He wrote. And, you know, what I said was, please, someone run the experiment. The experiment was, can you put the quail eggs in an ISI container, hit
+
+[34:00] them with nitrous and vent them real quick to make them peel easier? And he ran the experiment. How awesome is that? So here it is. He writes, thanks for your answering my quail egg question. Hate to be rough on you, but your pronunciation was not entirely spot on. Morton Morton Madson? What do you think? I don't know. I don't know. He's like, well, Danish can be a tongue twister for non-Danes, so no worries. At least you did not torture my name. I read through the article you suggested and found it quite informative. I told him an article about peeling eggs, right? Back to the issue at hand. I took your suggestion on using the ISI to approximate the pressure change associated with the pressure cooking of eggs. When you mentioned that the critical aspect of the pressure cooking of eggs is the abrupt change in pressure and not the temperature, my thoughts immediately went to the ISI as yours did as well.
+
+[34:41] Needless to say when I got the chance, I went out and bought a new batch of quail eggs. I followed the recipes from the last time, blanched a bunch of eggs in boiling water, followed by a cooling step and a 2nd blanching. I then circulated the eggs at 63.5 degrees Celsius for a short period. From this point on, I split the eggs in 3 things. At 1st I tried to peel directly. These eggs were even harder to peel than I remembered, presumably due to the fact that they were fresh. The 2nd batch I put directly into the ISI canister from the circulator and loaded it with N2O, followed by
+
+[35:09] a violent venting right away, this time complete success. These eggs were much easier to peel. The membrane had loosened from the egg white, and I had no problem peeling these eggs. This solution is really what I was dreaming of. I think I will be able to peel every single egg with no breakage using this technique. Lastly, I had one more batch of eggs. This one I cooled down. I wanted to test if the eggs would do just as fine when loaded cold. While the batch of hot eggs, I reasoned that no N2O would dissolve in the eggs. However, with the cold eggs this would make a difference. With my small batches of eggs. I think I leaned towards this last batch, the one that was cold is being the easiest appeal. However, I also realized that I got my peeling technique honed for each egg, so I would hesitate to make any conclusions on this final point. In the end, it seems that this technique works equally well with cold and warm eggs, so it seems that one does not need to worry about egg temperature before the ISI step.
+
+[35:53] In summary, I can easily recommend this technique as a shortcut to peeling eggs. I will try the technique with chicken eggs sometime. However, this would probably not be nearly as advantageous, since eggs are easier to peel to begin with, and since that we canister would only hold a small number of eggs. Thanks for your help, Morton Madson. Awesome. I love this. Now, here's a new technique that was, we developed with someone who was listening to the show over the radio. awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Sherry writes in from Vancouver about high temperature bags, greeting Anastasia, Dave, and all. Yes, you do have at least one other dedicated female listener, and one with a question at that. Busted stars. Busted. I'm not busted, I'm happy. Daxer says busted whenever you're wrong. He just goes, you're busted, even if he's busted, but you know, you might whatever anyway. Dave, a few weeks ago you mentioned the point of comfy in a backpack is to reduce the amount of fat that's required, that you cook in about the same temperature as the classic method to obtain the same results.
+
+[36:48] Being a pork belly and pig ears kind of gal, you know, if I was a gal, I'd be that kind of gal too. Intrigued me. My question is, from an energy used and equipment wear and tear perspective, would I be better off running my circulator at 90 C for several
+
+[37:00] hours, or should I put the backbag meat in a hot water in an oven of the same temperature? That's interesting. You could probably, see, the problem with ovens is that if the localized temperature of the bag gets above boiling, it could melt out, but so what we, what you could do is put like a, like a bane or water bath or
+
+[37:19] roaster on your stovetop, and then cook that one at, but I wouldn't do it in an oven because I think that the localized bag temperature might get too
+
+[37:27] high and you might get some melting. Uh, but you could definitely do it on a stovetop as that's what I typically do as I do it on a stovetop. But I wouldn't try it in an oven just because I can't get, if you could guarantee that the bag would stay underneath the water the whole time and it wouldn't inflate with air and then the bag would get above the surface of the water, then I think you could do
+
+[37:44] it. You know what I mean? But I wouldn't I wouldn't try it. I mean, that would actually self-regulate because the water won't get above boiling because of evaporative cooling inside of the oven.
+
+[37:53] So that would be great, but you'd have to make sure that the bag doesn't come up above the surface, but it is a pain running circulators at that high temperature, especially with larger quantities of
+
+[38:02] stuff, and who wants the comfy one thing? You know what I mean, Styles? Anyway, so good idea. Okay. David Wilkie wrote in also about the name. I tried tweeting you, but got it wrong. I think you should call it Shimra, ASE for all searing eye and pronounce it Ace, Shimra Ace. What do you think, sis? No I don't like it. Why? See, Stas, I don't know. I don't have likes and dislikes like you do. I don't have likes and dislikes that you do. Anyway, whatever you call it, I can't wait to buy one. Thanks for asking answering my A question a couple of weeks ago, sincerely Dave Wilkie. Okay, Dorothy, I'm going to rip through these, like some gun. Dorothy Steenbrook wrote in from Heath Glen Farm and Kitchen. Hi, Jack, Dave, and Nastasia first. You do have female listeners. Another one. Double busted, stars. I am a middle-aged female from Minnesota. You know, I haven't been to Minnesota since I was a little kid. And to go back. like Minnesota. Minnesota's good, well, when I was a kid, I remember being good. We fished. I got a whole bunch of catfish, and no one wanted to eat them, so we had to bury them for fertilizer, but that's that was in the 70s. What do you want out of me? Uh, I have even sent other likely female listeners to your podcast. via my blog spot on top 7 food podcasts. We females may not be many, but we are listening, Nastasia. Nice, nice. anyway, my question. I am making harissa sauce, and would like to make it shelf stable by water bathing it like a jam. I'm thinking this may not be safe as it does not have enough acid or sugar in it. It is made from rehydrated chili peppers, garlic, spices, lemon juice, and grape seed oil. Do I have to use a pressure cooker or can I add a ton of acid to make it shelf stable? Can I get away with water bathing or is there a bathing or is there a better way? Thanks so much. I do love your show and never miss it. Okay. 1st of all, because you are at, look, if you're working at a,
+
+[39:39] or if you're at a place you own or whatever, Heath Glenn Farm and Kitchen, my assumption, and I could be wrong here. So right back if my assumption's wrong. My assumption is you don't want to heap a bunch of preservatives into it because clearly you
+
+[39:49] could kill whatever is going to grow in that with preservatives, but assuming that you don't want to add preservatives. Um, the problem, okay, so let's take, let's take a look. Harissa is usually like a, like a, like an, like, I already remember making the sauce or just
+
+[40:02] a paste, but the paste is that, you know, a mixture of oil and garlic and chilies with enough water to rehydrate the chilies,
+
+[40:10] right? And then other flavorings. You said you have, um, you said you have lemon juice in yours. Now, the issue is that, for instance, let's say you're making garlic oil. The issue is, is there's nothing in the garlic to prevent things from like botulism like growing. And so when you add oil, by adding the oil, you're making it an anaerobic environment, an environment without
+
+[40:28] oxygen because it's coating all the stuff, and then by doing that, you're increasing the likelihood something like botulism will grow.
+
+[40:34] So presumably that's what you're worried about and rightly so. Now, the problem is normal heating, if your product is susceptible to spoilage by something like botulism, right?
+
+[40:45] A spore forming bacteria. Then, uh, doing a water bath is not sufficient to kill it, right? So that would not be sufficient. If the problem is something like botulism, then you have to seal it and pressure cook
+
+[41:02] it, can it, right? Pressure can it, not to pressure cook it, pressure can it. Then you have to follow the right advice to do that. Now, let's flip this back a little bit. Let's say that your product has, like, let's say you added salt to it, right? And you can measure the water activity and you can measure the pH of it. And it's called the hurdles. So whenever you're trying to stop microbes from growing, you have what's called hurdles, where you put different things in the way of bacteria from growing.
+
+[41:26] So for botulism and things like it, typically hurdles will be water activity, a small amount of water. Second hurdle will be salt, you know, a high enough amount of salt. And a 3rd will be a pH, will be acidity. And if the combination, if it's acid enough, salty enough and has, you know, a low enough amount of water, then botulism cannot grow. So you can adjust those things. And by the way, interesting thing about your mouth, your mouth doesn't
+
+[41:50] taste pH. Your mouth literally tastes the number of acid molecules that are present. That's how that's how you see something is more or less sour to a 1st order. I mean, don't yell at me. To a 1st order, that's correct. Which means you can choose an acid that has a larger effect on
+
+[42:07] a pH, right? That's gonna kill botulism more readily or prevent botulism from growing more readily, but doesn't taste as sour on your tongue.
+
+[42:16] So you have to look up a list of acidifiers that have, you know, that can shift pH fairly quickly without it being too much of an acid perception on the tongue. Now, let's go this way. Let's say you add enough product, you add enough acid and salt, and also the water activity in the water portion of it. You should have all those things mixed into the water portion before you make your oil emulsion. Let's say you have enough to stop botchism from going. You haven't guaranteed you've guaranteed that no one will die from botulism, but you haven't guaranteed that it's
+
+[42:47] going to be stable. So there are things that will grow in environments like that. Like yeast, for instance, things like that, that can grow in those environments and microbes that can
+
+[42:56] grow that are not pathogens, they won't kill you, but they can change the flavor and spoil it. Luckily for you, most of those things can be killed with a simple water bath. So if you make your harissa stable enough to not have deadly spore forming bacteria grow in
+
+[43:12] it like botulism, then a simple water bath is enough to kill the rest of
+
+[43:17] the stuff in there that will simply cause bad taste and spoilage.
+
+[43:22] What do you think? All right. Now, I do not have time, unfortunately, to answer the last question in from Winter
+
+[43:28] Sendout, who is wondering if I could help with a recipe for a homemade soda like
+
+[43:33] sandbitter. This is from Enda in Beijing, and Nastasia will be interested. You know, Sam Bitter, you like Sam Bitter, right? Piper loves Sam. I love sand bitter, so I'll tell you what, I don't have time to going through the rigmarole because they're going to kick me off the air in the minute, but I'm definitely going to go over that next week.
+
+[43:47] And the reason I'm not going to go over that is because I've missed one for like 3 or 4 weeks in a
+
+[43:52] row. On the BDX ice program. So here's what we do at BDX, BDXEQ. So it is possible. We in general use 3 main 3 or 4 main kinds of ice. We use crappy machine ice that's what we use for our stirring and for chilling things down and for normal culinary use and whenever we don't care, right? That's just normalized machine ice. Uh, and my feeling is, is that it has just the same chilling power, pound for pound is any kind of ice. The problems are it doesn't look very good and it can have more surface water because it has a large surface area. So we we, a lot of times we'll shake it off before we use it, but it's it's fine. Second kind of ice we use is presentation ice. Presentation ice, we get our ice made by a 100weight ice corporation. They freeze it in large machines called a Kleinbel. We get them in slabs. That stuff is perfectly clear. There are ways to freeze perfectly clear ice. at home or at a bar that don't involve it. don't do it. We just order it from 100weight ice. We get them in slabs. We temper those slabs out, and then we cut them with bread knives. They cut, it cuts, it's so easy to cut. You just put the bread knife, slide across it, tap it, and you can make perfect square chunks that are beautiful looking.
+
+[45:00] That's our presentation ice that we use for old-fashioned and drinks that are built on the rocks. Lastly, we make shaking ice. We have 2 by 2 uh, 2 inch by 2 inch ice cube uh, trays that we get from Cocktail Kingdom. Theirs are made from urethane and not from silicone. The polyurethane ones that they have, don't have any aroma, whereas Eben Freeman noted years ago that the silicone molds that you can buy in some houseware
+
+[45:23] stores make a taste to the ice that is otherwise unpleasant, presumably from the silicone, but the ones from Cocktail Kingdom. We did side by side taste tests, and we've not been able to note any flavor in them at all. Now, those ice cubes, 2 by 2 ice cubes, have cloudiness in them, so they're not good presentation cubes. However, my feeling is, is that they make ideal shaking ice cubes because the texture in a shake and drink with a large 2 by 2 ice cube is better, as we've noted, in
+
+[45:50] side-by-side taste tests. However, if you add just one 2 by 2 ice cube to a shaker, you're not going to get enough dilution because it's so large that you can't get efficient, efficient dilution that way. So, typically our shaken drinks, we put one large 2 by 2 ice cube, it's frozen in the cocktail
+
+[46:07] kingdom, ice cube mold, and then we throw in a couple from the crappy ice machine to increase the dilution, and that's our sweet spot for shaking drinks.
+
+[46:14] We do not make cobbler ice because we don't use highball glasses in our drink presentations yet.
+
+[46:20] Otherwise, we would. So that's it. Slab ice that we cut into whatever shape we want, usually cubes on the order of 2 by
+
+[46:27] 2 frozen 2 by 2 cubes that we freeze in a freezer that we allow to be cloudy that we use for shaking, regular crap
+
+[46:33] ice. And then also, of course, your boy dry liquid nitrogen, which is our other chilling technique. And that's it for this week, cooking issues.
+
+[46:48] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[46:57] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest
+
+[0:04] single source supplier of free range, all-natural, grass fed, and grass finished beef. For more information, visit hurstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:50] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:05] Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. Join with the entire crew today, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Hey. Nice. Nice, nice. Speaking of, uh, oh, call any questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Okay. By the way, cooking or other, you know, anything, spring related questions, whatever you got. By the way, uh, I noticed that we had a little bit of a sponsorship, that we were almost brought to you by her, and then it turns out we were brought to you by her
+
+[1:34] friends, her friends, Grass Fed Beef. Greatest, greatest grass fed beef song, as we all know, greatest grass fed beef song, probably ever. Guess what? What? somebody covered it. So we're going to hear that later today? So we're going to hear a cover version. I think we're going to play the original first and then we'll rock with the cover a little later. And I think we should also, at some point, find out what the Reverend Horton Heat is doing these days and see if we can't, like, get permission from the Reverend Horton Heat for the
+
+[1:58] Hearst Ranch people to have him play his fabulous song, Eat Steak. You remember that song? Let's do it Yeah, it's a good song. Good song. Well, kind of a good song. Anyway, uh, But, uh, initially brought by beer and beer and beef, good combo. We should do like a sponsorship beer and beef one day. I could do a beer and beef dish. Right? Everyone likes, everyone likes a, you know, a Guinness braised cut of beef every now and any. Well, not everyone. Michael Natkin for one. Yeah. congratulations to him. What happened? He is nominated for a beer boy. Sweet. I knew that, but I had to draw you into it. See that? See how I had to pretend to see how that works. See how you like, you know, people out there don't know what's anyway, whatever. So yes, congratulations to Michael Nakkin on being nominated for James Beard. which category was it? Vegetarian book. You better win. Who's against? There's some good ones. I don't know. can look it up. We wanted to win. We want Michael Nacken. I bought 3 books of his for friends. Christmas. With your own money. With my own money. Michael, Michael, you can't possibly know what an endorsement that is from Queen
+
+[2:58] Cheepula, Nastasia Lopez. I am King Chipula. I am a cheap, cheap cheap. But it's weird. about some things not about other things, right? Anyway, so that all of that is useless information for you out there. Sorry. Really interesting news. We have a question later having to do with Acrylamide in Denmark, which we'll get to later. But I was searching, you know, Denmark and food and problems. And I found something that Nastasia is going to particularly enjoy. I don't know why I think that, but I think she will. And it goes back to the recent spate of scandals whereby everything and its brother has been contaminated somehow,
+
+[3:33] right? And so everyone's now like in a complete testing frenzy that the meets that you're getting are not authentic, et cetera, et cetera. Like, perhaps your, perhaps your lasagna is actually a horse lasagna. Could be, at least in Europe. So the latest one, which is like super box is, uh, new meat scandal, pork and shawarma. What? Yeah, yeah. So it's like, more, so there's a, uh, so shawarma, you know, for those who don't know what shawarma
+
+[4:01] is, if you know what a Jiro is, it's kind of like their hero. If you know what a donor kebab is, it's kind of like that. But the last thing you want to be doing is being a Muslim and have pork in your shawarma. That's the last thing you want. And so, um, uh, the uh, Imran Shaw, spokesperson for the Islamic
+
+[4:21] Society in Denmark, told the online daily politician BK, this is by no means a minor infraction. This is a huge scandal that will cause an outcry among Danish Muslims. Our religion prohibits us from eating pork. Now Muslims will think twice before eating shawarma for fear that they're not adhering to the rules of their faith, said Shaw. Sold as this is all from this website. Sold as beef, more than 200,000 Muslims currently live in Denmark, and Shawarma is particularly popular because it does not traditionally contain pork, which is considered unclean by Muslims.
+
+[4:48] However, the Danish veterinary food veterinarian food administration, who the heck does veterinary science and food in the same day? It's kind of crazy, right? I mean, I want that stuff separate. Anyway, maybe that's the problem. Yeah. Anyway, found traces of the forbidden pork in a fried beef kebab product manufactured by Andalu kid, the largest supplier, Shawarma meat in
+
+[5:04] Copenhagen, uh, quote, uh, Mustafa Shaheen, the CEO and owner of Andalu kid. Sorry. Anyway, I thought you'd like that, right? Sorry. It's not, well, it's not allowed. Obviously, it's not allowed. Food contamination is not a laughing matter, but what's interesting is that as soon as people start
+
+[5:27] testing, the, you know, the poor kid's the fan. Anyway, uh, Rick writes in, uh, regarding uh, Chicha that we discussed, I think last week or maybe the week before. Dave Nastasi, Jack and Joe. I was listening to episode 118. I can't believe they've had 118 episodes. nuts. In particular segment about Chicha. And for those of you that don't know, Chicha is their traditional
+
+[5:48] fermented, grain, traditionally, corn, corn, I guess, although other things, you can use roots, not necessarily grain starch, starch fermentations from South
+
+[5:58] America. And, you know, one of the traditional ones is with corn. And in order to get the starch in corn or any starch, really, roots, whatever, cassava, whatever, to turn into
+
+[6:09] sugar so you can ferment them into ethanol, you need to introduce amylase enzymes. One way to do that is to germinate product by, you know, letting it grow a little bit and then killing
+
+[6:18] the, killing the germ so that you, um, so that you then, you know, don't actually
+
+[6:22] con, like use up all the sugar that you need. And then you use the enzymes from the germination to convert the starch to sugar,
+
+[6:28] mashing in beer, to parlance. Anyway, so, um, point is, is that if you don't mash something out or you don't have something that you can germinate, you have
+
+[6:37] amylace, wear it, Stas, and you spit. Yeah, so you can chew stuff up and it's traditional in a lot of communities that didn't have the ability or products that
+
+[6:46] could terminate properly. Traditionally, things would be chewed up. And then the saliva would be allowed to work on the products such that you could get the same effect as you did from germinating. Okay, that's what we're talking about. Just so you don't have to go back and listen to 118 God help you if you have to do that. Okay. I recalled an episode of a show called Brewmasters, uh,
+
+[7:03] where uh, Sam, uh, Collagione. Is that how you pronounce it? Calagione. What do you think? You're the Italian. Yeah. Although he's from like Delaware, so he probably pronounces it differently. At Dogfish Head, Great Brewery. you know, they make some crazy products, but they also make some incredibly delicious products. A dogfish head made a chicha beer where he and his staff chewed the corn, spat it out, then added it to the wort, and the beer was then served at the
+
+[7:27] dogfish head pub. The show, they even tested employees to find those people whose saliva had more of the right enzymes needed to break down the corn, referred to by Sam as super chewers,
+
+[7:37] uh, that in from Rick. So I read one article about them doing this. Here's the thing. So here's the argument of why it's okay to chew up your stuff and spit it out.
+
+[7:46] The argument is that you're going to boil, uh, no matter what, you're going to boil the wart anyway, right? So you're going to kill any bacteria or any stuff that's in there. It's going to be rendered harmless by the boiling procedure. Now, I don't really know because I haven't had the time to look up whether or not that's legal or not. Like, in other words, like whether or not people would actually be okay if you actually listed the steps, like, I am literally going to put it in my mouth, chew it
+
+[8:11] up, and spit it out, and I don't know. I mean, like, I'm not saying they didn't serve it because clearly they did. Um, and I, you know, I read that it was more difficult than they let on. They thought they were going to chew through a bunch of pounds of this stuff and nothing flat and it took them forever to chew it. Turns out hard work. Uh, but the, the point is, is that regardless whether or not it's legal. Then the question is, is it a good idea to do in your bar,
+
+[8:32] brew pub or establishment? And for dogfish head, clearly, because they spend a lot of their time experimenting with old techniques, and, you know, ancient brews and ancient beverages, for them, it's clearly a necessary step they need to make.
+
+[8:45] Now, step aside and let's say that you're not dogfish head. Like, is it a wise idea? The look on Nastasia's face, the horrified look on Nastasia's
+
+[8:53] face, seems to tell me that, no, it's probably not a good idea. Let me give you. I'm going to get gross here for a sec. You all right what this does? I'm going to get gross here, right? Okay. So you're literally spitting into something you're going to serve to somebody, right? Okay. And if you weren't going to boil it, that wouldn't be okay, right? Right. Right. Now. Ready for the gross? Like, what of the analog? What if there was an enzyme and poop that did something, right? For instance, Kopi Luak, right? When you eat kopi lua coffee beans, they have passed through the gut of a civic cat and been pooped out of the civic
+
+[9:25] cat. They civic cats poop in particular areas. They eat only the choices, coffee beans, and the enzymes in the digestive system, do something to the coffee bean to make it particularly delicious. I've never tasted it, but it's extremely expensive, right? Okay. So there you go, pooping coffee. Now, let's wash and clean and sterilize and roasted, so right nonsense. So if a person was to eat coffee beans and poop them out, would that be okay to
+
+[9:47] boot coffee from? Would that be okay? No. Right. So that's the question, right? I mean, like, I don't know. I don't know. Interesting question. Kind of interesting question. I don't know. I don't really know. Someone tell me. Anyway, more stuff on the torch name. So as those, you know, we're working on a new kind of torch attachment that you're attaching the torch and it gets rid of the taste that I associate, I call torch taste, which I used to think came from the fuel, but in fact, turns
+
+[10:12] out it comes from just the incredible high heat of a torch.
+
+[10:15] We diffuse it, turn it into radiant heat, and we're trying to find a name for this gizmo. You can look on the cooking issues blog. get an idea what the hell we're talking about. Coke people have written in, by the way, asking where they can find the Kickstarter. The reason you can't find it is we haven't put it up yet. We're still, we have it out on what's called beta testing. So I, you know, we've given it to a group of about 5 or 6 chefs or, you know, 610 chefs, and we're having them test it now to see kind of what
+
+[10:37] they, what they think, what they think the problems are, what solutions are, the problems. making it safer, et cetera, et cetera, right? It's a fun process. Oh, it's so fun. It's so fun that Nastasia wants to stab me in the eye every morning. Okay, uh, we're all, you know, whatever. I can be difficult. Okay, so, uh, here's some of the names because we had a contest on the names. And I think we're going to probably call, like we should probably call the contest after this because we've gotten a lot of really good names in, and we're pretty sure we're going to go with some combination of Sally plus something
+
+[11:07] else, and we're just focusing on it. So we'll go through and we'll see whether anyone actually earned the free whatever. But we really super appreciate all the names that have been sent in. And I'm going to read the last list of the names. read them right now. I have the new T abbreviation of new Torch and a nod to the salamander, and I of newt with T as a capital at the end. I like Eye of Newt because of the witch thing. But you remember, I actually have to sell this product. Like these is, so like, it's all funny. Like, it's all funny. Like, these are things that I would come up with as well that I appreciate that I would,
+
+[11:37] you know, so there's Pipe Piper that works with us. He's the punmaster. He should quit working with us and go just do puns for a living. Yeah, something. Yeah, but anyway, or for the, yeah, whatever, like weatherman, whatever, like meteorologist, like he could come up with their puns left and right. be awesome at it. But my point is, is that these are all piper worthy puns. They're great, but, you know, they don't want to necessarily have a product. They're supposed to be around for years. But anyway, here's the last list. Cooking issues team. This is from JD. I tweeted a torch name, decided to email it just to make sure. So that was also JD. No, my art reactor. That's a good name. My art reactor, but, you know, again, I don't, what a way, this is him. I realize it doesn't cover all the functionality, but I think it would be cool to pay homage, homage, pay homage to the technical
+
+[12:21] term and chemist Louis Camille Maillard. Yeah, famous, famous man, not famous in his own life, the poor SOB. Also, what chef wouldn't want a serious kitchen tool that has reactor in the name? That's actually kind of true. I like reactor. I like reactor. And if you look up chemistry reactors online, They're pretty awesome. It's right for all sorts of nameplay in the back of the house. Maya, that puppy. Give it some more Maya. like Maya actually. Love the Love Yarded Up, etcetera. Or Myard Reaction Torch, MR Torch. You can call it Mr. Torch or Mr. T for an extremely marketable name. Sure, you could easily get Mr. T to endorse it. And of course, the tagline would be, I pity the fool. Or should I do it? I can't really do Mr. T. I pity the fool who doesn't use my Siri too. Cheers, JD. I wasn't bad. Yeah? It's been a long, long time, and I do love Mr. T. If you don't like Mr. T, something wrong with you. Hey, we got to call her. Oh, yeah? All right, okay, okay, I'll go back to the names in a second. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Howdy. How's it going? I have a question of, so 2 questions. First is I want to get an eyesight whip. And I was wondering, what's your recommendation as far as the best side whip teeth? Okay, so is this for home or commercial? Um, home but, uh, hopefully commercial use. So kind of both, yeah. Okay, so, I mean, I like the ones that, 1st of all, you know, I have worked with the company in the past, so just, you know, bias there. Uh, but I've used I've used the off-brand ones before and they've been given to me and all this stuff and I have to admit as much as I hate shilling out for ISI here, uh, the
+
+[13:56] off-brand ones tend to leak and the seals are cruddy and they just tend not to work as well. So I stick with the name brand ones. I'm sure there's another high quality one out there, but I don't know. Then, uh, I prefer I've had the home ones that, um, you know, are plastic on top and stainless
+
+[14:12] elsewhere, and I think the ones that are kind of all stainless with the, um, with the silicone grips are, are better, right? So then now the next question is what size do you want to go with? Now, for all purpose uses, I think, like, either get the half liter or the leader, depending on what kind of volumes you're going to use. Like, unless you have a very specific application for the very small one, I wouldn't say it's necessarily that
+
+[14:34] useful. I tend to use liter ones and half liter ones. The, you know, the thing is, if you're going to do small amounts in the full liter ones, you might need to dump an extra cartridge in versus if you were using
+
+[14:45] a half liter one. But if you're not going to do it all the time, it's not that big of a loss and your capacity is now all of a sudden greater, right? So you bear that in mind when you're buying one. And, um, the other thing is, is that in general, uh, unless you have a very specific application where you need to keep something hot or cold for a long time, the thermo whips, which
+
+[15:06] are, which are insulated. So they look like they hold a liter, but they only hold a half liter because they're insulated. They're great if you need to keep something hot for a long time and you don't have access to like a circulator or Bain
+
+[15:16] Marie, where you can just keep it in hot water. But those applications are fairly, they're fairly specific and they upcharge for the thermal whip is very large,
+
+[15:28] right? So, I mean, and remember, anything you can do in a thermo
+
+[15:33] whip, you can do slightly less conveniently in a regular ISI by either sticking it into a hot water
+
+[15:38] bath or by putting it in the fridge, one of the two. Um, and if you do, if you do buy a thermal whip, you still, you need to pre-chill it or preheat it with a fluid before you dump your initial before you dump your product in or it doesn't, doesn't work right.
+
+[15:51] You know, if you do get the liter, you're going to have to contend with the fact that you guys got to remember to keep your recipe or anything,
+
+[15:59] really. Any one of them. You have to make sure that your recipes are the same volumes every time when you're doing things like confusions. For things like whipped creams and foams, it doesn't matter as much. Okay, great. And my 2nd question is, um, I'm trying to, uh, mess around with making
+
+[16:14] a Targa. Okay. I was wondering if you have any advice on, uh, how to go about doing that because I've seen recipes and seen, uh, previous chefs that work with make a target from, uh, you know, uh, row. Um, so I'm wondering if you have any advice for making a go. Mean regular chicken egg yolk? Hey, chicken egg yolk. kind of curing them so they have the same texture. So you can grate them like you would the target. Well, I mean, huh. So how would you do that? Uh, I guess it depends on what you what you want, right? So, uh, I mean, I would look into kind of miso curing, uh, of egg
+
+[16:54] yolks and see kind of a miso cured egg yolk and then get the initial cure. The issue is you have to get enough water out of the egg yolk so that it's stable before you undergo the normal kind of dehydration process.
+
+[17:03] And I know you probably don't want the flavor. I've never tried it. This is why I'm just sneaking off the top of my head is I've never done it. So like, you know, I'm just, I would look into seeing how the miso cured egg yolks work. Uh, I mean, the bonehead easiest way to do it would be probably to cook the egg yolks out at like 64, mold them into a
+
+[17:22] block and then and then uh, with salt and then uh, and then let them dry, but target style. I don't, I mean, that's the bonehead easy way to do it, but it's not as elegant. I mean, if you want to keep the egg yolk whole and then grade it later, then you're going to have to do some form of very slow dehydration and salting and then later expose it to air and let it dry out.
+
+[17:41] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, um, because I found a recipe for sea urchin, Target, where they mix turkey. Oh, yeah, to bind it? Sea urchin? and then they pureed it, and then folded it into, I mean, molded it, and then from
+
+[17:55] there they did... I was wondering if that is an optional activist search, but thank you. Uh, sure. I mean, the question is, how much, I mean, you know, Uni is,
+
+[18:08] like the eggs, the eggs, uh, the actual eggs are extremely, extremely fine in Uni, right? Super fine. Like much finer than they are in the fish rows that they make, you know, Botarga from. So, presumably, some of them are still whole, and then some of them are beat up by the pureeing, and
+
+[18:25] then, and then the tapioca just glues the whole thing together, and then how much they add salt to it,
+
+[18:30] presumably? Presumably, yeah. Yeah, they buried in kosher salt. I think they added any salt to it. Right. So they buried it in kosher. Right. Okay. So yeah, something of salt is going through biosmic. Yeah, I mean, so if it works for that, the problem with, you know, the problem with regular egg yolks is, you know, you puree an egg yolk and you puree
+
+[18:51] uni, uni's going to have more structure pureed. So I guess that's why they're adding the tapioca. I mean, like, I don't know whether it's going to super adversely affect the flavor, but just taking the egg yolk up to like 64 or 63
+
+[19:03] C is going to give you enough structure to have it sit around while it's doing its
+
+[19:07] thing. But I don't know if it changes the stuff. And then, like I say, if you can just crack egg yolks into, and do miso curing of them because, you know, I've never done it when I've seen it done.
+
+[19:17] All right? Okay. I hope they have please tweet the at cooking issues and tell me what happens when you test the stuff out because it'll give me an idea for future people who ask
+
+[19:25] me. Great, thank you so much. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. All right. Okay, back to some torch names. What was the last one we had? Oh yeah, Celsius chef writes in. You got like Celsius, chef. Yeah, Celsius chef. Although, remember, I still fry in Fahrenheit, and I bake in Fahrenheit, but I do all my low temperature work in Celsius. Hey there, David Gang. I have the perfect name for your new tool, the blowzooka. I totally yell that. I totally yell down the line for that just because it's fun to say. Keep up the great work, guys. And how do I find the project on Kickstarter, if I'd like to support Chelsea Chef. will let you know when we actually have it up. I mean, look, I gotta be honest. I love the name Blowzooka. I can't actually call it that, but blowzooka. That was my vote, by the way. Really? I mean, how could it not be? That's an awesome name. I know. Blowzooka? awesome. Like Blowzooka Joe? do you think? Whoa, can we rename Joe Blowzooka Joe? Hell yeah. Can you write a song, Blowzuka Joe? Joe? Yeah, Jack and I will collaborate on this. I'll have it by next weekend. Ah, sweet, sweet, Blzuka Joe. Okay. Ole right saying, hi, here are a few names for your torch gizmo. First of all, I love the word gizmo. Love the word gizmo. I like the blog Gizmoto just because it's called gizmo dough. Anyway, uh, Torch tamer, the seer, especially if it can also predict the future. This, by the way, was the vote of Dax, my son, called it daddy's seer for a long time, not knowing what seer, like searing. anyway. So he calls it the seer, which is I kind of like that, but it sounds like kind of like really like a cult.
+
+[20:50] The seer. Although anyway, the humane torch. All right, the humane torch. Like the human torch? Oh, like human torch. Yeah, human torch. good comic book reference there. And, you know, Nastasia always surprises me. Always surprised. I love that Cooking torch without issues. I get it? Yeah. Yeah. And the eye torch. Like, could be eye or eye, because it looks like an eye. Honestly, if you're looking to sell more than a few of these. Find a clever name, sous vide torch, sell the whole deal, torchhead included, and sous vide torch would be the top Google search results. Got to like a Google search result. Yeah, gotta like that. No matter what you decide, I was standing in line. Apple Store style to get one. relatively new to your podcast, but I'm burning through one to 3 a day. Many thanks. Ole. Oh, hey, you gotta mellow out on listening to this. You're gonna burn out. Like we, you can't listen to 3 of us a day. It's not possible. Right? Yeah. Okay, no more submissions now. Well, nostalgia, so harsh. on this list. What the hell is wrong with you? You're crazy. Dean Wynn writes in. Hey, Nastasia, Dave Jack, and Joe. I'm not sure where you guys are with the gadget names, but a gadget too. Good word. But I had to throw my hat in. I also like the term throw the head in. Initially, I thought about broiling and searing, but what you really are doing is applying heat by hand at the precision of an artist. So that led to the idea of a brush, firebrush, flashbrush, and torchbrush. Brushes, brush. Thanks for the show. Oh, thanks. I love the show and listen to all the podcasts, hoping to hear my name on the next show. Dean Nguyen. Here's your name again, Dean. Dean Wyn. Thank you for your submission, right? Yeah. Uh, okay. For the names. Okay, so no more. All right, so should we take a commercial break? All right, 1st commercial break.
+
+[23:24] Herst, grass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hearst Ranch Grassfit, the free range, sustainably produced, humane. First Ranch Grass Fed Beef, the authentic flavor of the American West. Oh, yeah. And
+
+[23:55] you're back. Hey, welcome back to Creaking. I thought were doing the cover. No, we're gonna close the show with the cover. Okay, we have a cover of my favorite grass, uh, grass, uh, FedB song. Coming to you from Joel Gargano. Okay. This question in from Buddha regarding bacon substitution. Hi, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, Joe, at all. Are there any good substitutes for bacon or pork in recipes for soups or other dishes where they are used mainly as a flavoring and not as a
+
+[24:19] focus? I'm a lifelong vegetarian and have never intentionally eaten meat, let alone bacon. Although, you know, everyone knows this. Everyone knows bacon's delicious. So you don't eat it, but I mean, obviously you know that it's delicious, even though you haven't eaten it because it just straight up is, right? Right. Yeah. I'm a lifelong. Okay, never intentionally eat meat, let alone bacon. Normally when I come across a recipe, that calls for bacon, ham, or pork. will just leave it out Obviously, I avoid recipes in which the meat is the bulk or main item. Recently, I have come to realize that this is leaving me with bland recipes that are clearly missing
+
+[24:51] something, most likely strong flavor components from the meat. Navy bean soup has this. I'm assuming a much navy bean soup has, I'm assuming, a much different flavor profile with and without ham.
+
+[25:02] This most recently came to a head when trying to adapt a cheddar ale recipe I found on
+
+[25:07] the Sirius Eats blog. What can I do to overcome this issue? I am an ovo lacto vegetarian. So solutions involving dairy or eggs are fine with me. When I've asked for solutions to this among my friends, who may be foodies, but not necessarily chefs, the general answer is it can't be
+
+[25:23] done, or to add some salt, fat, and liquid smoke. Thanks for your thoughts, and I hope cooking issues continues to entertain and enlighten.
+
+[25:30] Buddha. Okay, there's a great question. And the issue is, is that a lot of chefs who don't have, you know, certain constraints, you know, whether they want to call them constraints or not,
+
+[25:42] but, you know, certain ingredients that they won't use, they tend to ignore the, the, the problem and say things like, oh, I just can't do it or just add something that's, you know, relatively not so
+
+[25:53] good. Like and by the way, there are good liquid smokes. And obviously smoke is one of the components and bacon is something that you're going to be missing if you don't have smoking, but there are better ways than using a low quality liquid smoke.
+
+[26:05] High quality liquid smoke is good stuff, but it's also hard to dose liquid smoke. You add a little too much liquid smoke and all of a sudden there's there's problems. Anyway, back to that. Uh, so, uh, the, the, the question, people, like I say, they, they ignore it. Me, on the other hand, even though I eat bacon, you know, quite often,
+
+[26:20] and I use it a lot as a seasoning meat, I think, you know, bacon and country hammer, 2 of my most favorite seasoning
+
+[26:26] meats where you don't actually have to use that much of it to get a good result. But, uh, saying what can you do uh, to get around it is, to me, is an interesting problem and something to solve.
+
+[26:35] So here are my thoughts. What is it that bacon is adding? So it's adding salt, right? So you need to add salt. It's also adding, um, it's also adding smoke if you're using American bacon, which is why I like American bacon, even in recipes where I shouldn't like American bacon, like Italian recipes, where
+
+[26:53] nastachi's like, you have to use pancetta because it's not authentic. And I really, I don't care if it's authentic because I like the smoke, right? Stas, you hate it, right? I was bacon and carbonara too. Really? Since when? You've been yelling at me for years, for years. You should use pancetta, but usually the ones that they sell in the store is really bad. Yeah, well you heard it here first. Yeah, you heard it here first. It turns out that we're American and we like smoky
+
+[27:18] bacon, even when we should. And in Italy, the pancetta is smoky. It's just not, you can't find it here. Whatever. Okay. Did you ever buy that pancetta, though, like, packaged pancetta at the store? It's so bad. I've never purchased that. So Buddha, we're not answering a question. Here, back to your question. So smokiness is definitely something you need to replace when you're replacing a smoked ham product or a bacon product.
+
+[27:40] Now, liquid smoke isn't the way to go. So, like, if you were doing to do a pizza and you wanted it to have a little bit of that component, right? Then, for instance, I have to always, when I make pizzas, I have to make them vegetarian, completely
+
+[27:52] vegetarian, because my cousin, who comes over and eats at my house, is vegetarian and won't eat, you know, won't eat meat. So I can't put anchovies into my sauce, which is a normal one of my techniques that I put
+
+[28:02] in, and no one's ever complained because it tastes delicious, and it adds a lot of umami and salt. You want to become a meat eater now? No, he won't. Anyway, so smoked mozzarella, right, is a good way to add smoke in that form. Or if you're doing a cheddar ale thing. Use a smoked cheese, but high quality, not a crappy one where they spray fake smoke on it. Um, Secondly, smoked paprika, uh, or pimentone, a fantastic way to
+
+[28:26] add uh, smokiness to um, a dish. So, right? So, you know, those are the, how else do I add smoke? a lot of anything that you add that is smoked naturally can add some of those smoky flavors and probably does it in a way that you're going to like better than just adding straight up liquid smoke, which, like I say, is hard to
+
+[28:45] dose and it can it can go from being too little to all of a sudden being too much. And also, a low quality liquid smoke is very monotonic. It has one very characteristic kind of note to it. part because of the way it's produced and in part because you can't buy a high quality one usually.
+
+[29:00] Anyway, okay. So the other things, I mean, salt is obvious. You can add salty things, but I usually like to add salty foods that aren't just adding pure salt, but to also add the umami products that you get, the meaty
+
+[29:11] umami things that you get out of things like bacon. So how do you get that? Any food that contains amino acids that have been broken down somewhat into smaller, uh, tasty, uh, you know, uh, polypeptides and
+
+[29:27] breakdown, like protein breakdown products, especially if they've been cooked to give them some of that cooked flavor that you would get out of uh, cooking bacon in a pan before you uh, add the soup stuff to it,
+
+[29:37] right? Anything that's going to add those flavors is going to make your product better. So that's when you start pulling out like Parmesan cheese being great. As something that adds umami because it's been aged for a long, long time, and the proteins have broken down, and you get a much richer, more umami feel out of it, right? Tomato products, clearly very high in umami. Ground up cured olives, right? Are excellent. Uh, umami carrying, um, thingamajigs. Also, liquid aminos, right? So fermented sauces. Now, when you think of something to add umami to soups, your mind probably 1st goes directly to soy. The problem is if you add soy to a product, all of a sudden it starts tasting Asian, right? So you can go to different products like coconut liquid aminos or any sort of fermented, broken down product where you're getting some of those meeting notes that you would otherwise get from
+
+[30:31] a from adding straight meat. Oh, and obviously mushrooms. Isn't it good? Am I missing anything? you're good Yeah. I mean, like, and so some combination of all of those things, but even just like making sure that you stock items that allow you to do quick substitutions, like
+
+[30:48] a really high quality smoked Pimentone, like smoked paprika, and, you know,
+
+[30:52] always, always, you know, maybe try the coconut liquid amino, see what you think. Uh, and just, you know, work that way. I think you probably have good luck. Yeah? Okay. Ruben writes in about his home kitchen. Hammer, Jack, Joe, and Dave. I'm an avid fan of the show. Thanks so much for all your contributions in work and for the Chartreuth, which is the drink we do at the bar. It's really just chartreuse, green chartreuse and water chilled, carbonated with a little bit of clarified lime juice in it, like really carbonate. Anyway, Ruben says that's one tasty beverage. I'm sure the Carthusians would agree. You know, we met the we met the president. Nastasia and Piper and I met the president of Chartreuse the other day and he was kind of hilarious. Like, I would like to go visit those monks someday. Apparently, you know, they can't talk to Carthusians. when they're doing their, when they're in the monastery, but if you get them outside the monastery, they, uh, they, they can talk. Loved it. I loved it. I mean, that movie that they did looked incredibly boring, but I'd love to go visit them, right? Anyway, whatever. Okay, question. I'm in the conceptual stages of renovating the kitchen in my apartment. As a home cook and devotee of many contemporary techniques discussed here and elsewhere, I'd like to create a work area that is functional for the current state of the art, yet flexible enough to incorporate future innovations. I have a small space, don't we all, right? Limited budget. I'm familiar with this problem, and one shot at this. Much as I'd like, I don't have the luxury of putting in a completely restaurant style work area that would render my apartment
+
+[32:15] unsalable. This is a huge problem, by the way. So like my kitchen at home is ridiculous. And, you know, it probably would be an impediment to selling it because I have the huge deep fryer, the huge 6 burner range, all this other stuff.
+
+[32:28] Anyway, as wonderful as it is to have new ways to approach cooking, it's frustrating that design thinking and ergonomics
+
+[32:35] has seemingly not kept pace. Hearing your recent offhand thoughts about the outdated state of technologies like home refrigeration makes me further
+
+[32:41] concerned that any specialized approach I take might be limiting in the future. Would you share any tips, must dos, cautionary tales, or overarching philosophies, or nominally related
+
+[32:51] tangents, familiar with us, I guess? You or have faced or anyone you know has faced with similar quandaries. Thanks much, Reuben. Okay. Here's the thing. So, look, at home, you know, it's very hard. You have to choose whether you're either going to have a convenient,
+
+[33:09] like convenient, easy home stuff or do you have in the past, had to choose between easy, convenient home stuff and like hardcore restaurant stuff.
+
+[33:19] And the hardcore restaurant stuff has a lot of problems for homes. For instance, regular restaurant, kitchen stoves throw off a boatload of heat. They're not as well insulated. They typically have standing pilots. It means they're running all the time. So in the summertime, they really heat up your house. In fact, in the summertime, I turn the pilot off in my oven. And I just leave my oven off and I do all my cooking in the salamander and on my, on my crepe maker for most of the time because no one wants to have that oven raging during the, during the summertime.
+
+[33:48] It's crazy, right? So, for some reason, there is a, there's a real disconnect. So, you know, the most that most people at home, and I wouldn't recommend getting that, even if you could resell your house with
+
+[34:00] it. And by the way, the professional stove, like a lot of people get freaked out by it. Like, they don't, especially mine, because it's all P.I.D. controlled and like electronic and you have to plug it in in 5 different places. Mine in particular is a nightmare. But people get weirded out by it. They love the idea of these, you can't see the quote, you know, quote marks that my fingers are making,
+
+[34:22] but professional style home ones. Most of the ones I've used at a professional style home ones are fairly lacking in terms of their output power. However, if you can find like one that's like one of these kind of home professional jobs, it is
+
+[34:34] stainless, that has a fairly high output burner. And I don't have any recommendations because I haven't used one. At home, I use an old garland that, you know, I bought at a restaurant auction for almost nothing. Oh, by the way, another tack you can take with a limited budget is to go to restaurant auctions, if you live in a place where there's a restaurant auction, get the commercial oven that you actually want, install it, and
+
+[34:58] when it comes time to sell your apartment, throw it away and buy a normal oven to put into
+
+[35:05] your into your kitchen. That's what I plan on doing. Like when I sell my apartment. I'm just going to rip out my oven that it's put in like many, many years of good service to me that I bought for
+
+[35:14] $500, including the salamander at an auction, right? I'm just going to hurl it, you know, into the abyss or give it to someone who wants it. This is on my Asian option. Please. It'll be unsafe. I can't actually give it to anyone because so many modifications that I wouldn't want anyone else to have
+
+[35:28] to... I don't know what that means. I don't know, yeah, whatever. anyway, you know, yeah, sure. So I can get so I can get my butt handed to me. Anyway, the point being that you can put that in for very little money, if you're willing to put up with the
+
+[35:43] inconvenience, and then later put in a new unit. But I wouldn't necessarily go there, but you definitely need good high output burners. If you have a lot of electricity and you don't have a lot of ventilation, induction might be the way to go. If your cookware can stand it. Although I have to say, having grown up, I mean, I honestly believe that induction is the wave of the
+
+[36:06] future. Uh, but, you know, I'm an old school, you know, gas flame fiend, and I don't know that the induction,
+
+[36:14] I, I use induction at work exclusively, because we don't have gas burners at work, and I
+
+[36:19] still, I still would feel very sad if I didn't have my gas burners at my house. You know, what about used to us? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, although an electric oven might be the way to go. I mean, it depends on how much modification you're willing to do and how handy you are. I mean, I recommend having a deep fryer only for me. Most people wouldn't do that and that would destroy the resale value of your kitchen, so I wouldn't do that, although I highly recommend owning one.
+
+[36:40] If you, if you want to become a monk of the fry, then you need to have a real
+
+[36:46] fryer. I think that's just the case. Anyway, but you're not going to do that, so it doesn't matter. I would just maximize your counter space. Uh, from, I would get, you know, 6 burners that can do a really good job that also
+
+[36:59] throttle down to a low enough setting that, that, uh, you know, they're still useful. Make sure your oven has a full sheet pan capacity. If you have a full sheet pan capacity oven and 6 burners. And then you give yourself enough space to have
+
+[37:14] a, um, enough space to have all the ancillary equipment like your circulators, uh, or you know, counter space for the vacuum, things like this, then I think you're going to be in good shape.
+
+[37:25] Problem. Also, I would throw away, here's the big thing I think everyone mistake everyone makes. They have all these different kinds of bowls and all these different kinds of
+
+[37:34] gazies in their kitchen, and then they never know how to use them, they never find them,
+
+[37:38] like, I'll give you the quick example. You have to plan to have space in your kitchen to have the stuff out. My old loft. My pasta machine, the roller, you know, the Atlas pasta machine roller, was bolted to my countertop. So, consequently, I made pasta uh, about uh, once a week. once or twice a week, depending. I would make pasta because everything was out and the amount of time it took me to make the pasta was roughly equivalent to the amount of time it would take me to cook dry pasta because I was so fast because I did it all the
+
+[38:08] time. Uh, in my new kitchen, I don't have space. It's not bolted to the counter. I've lived there for 10 years and in 10 years, I've made pasta 10 times because the stuff's not out. You need to have, so like, I think the main problem people make when they're, when they're trying to, if they want to use something all the time at home, you have to make it convenient.
+
+[38:28] And I would have a mixture of open and closed storage so that
+
+[38:32] your open storage is very fast. You don't have to worry about it. I would throw away all your odd sized bowls. I would go to a kitchen supply store and buy inexpensive, stainless steel bowls in 4 sizes. I would buy 6 of each size, large, a small for mise en place stuff, and then a neck size
+
+[38:53] up, next size up, and a large. I would have stacks of those. Do not stack them inside of each other, put them next to each other. Get 2 like 2 or 3 different sizes of stackable, uh, um, like pyrexes or measuring cups in 2 different sides and have those things out so that they work and get like, you know, easy to use things for like uh, bulk storage of flour that's sealed properly so that you don't get vermin problems.
+
+[39:16] And like that's like the biggest, that's like the biggest thing. You know what I mean? Like keeping those stuff in and out and being able to grab those things very quickly. Then make, like I say, make sure you have enough room for your circulator and make sure you have enough power.
+
+[39:28] The problem with a lot of these new techniques is that you're plugging stuff
+
+[39:32] in and then all of a sudden you don't have enough power and you're blowing circuits. So you're running your nuke at the same time that you're running your rice cooker and if you have an electric pressure cooker and you're starting blowing circuits everywhere. So think about trying to run a few extra circuits in and just make sure you have enough burner
+
+[39:47] work. And the last thing I will say is please try to get good ventilation into your
+
+[39:52] kitchen. I have done, I shouldn't say this, but like illegally vented my
+
+[39:56] kitchen, I put a, um, like a, what's the word? you know, dryer ducts? Yeah, dryer duct. So it looks like I have a dryer duct, but I've been venting my whole kitchen out of
+
+[40:07] it, and you have to be really careful and know what you're doing to make sure that you're not causing a fire hazard when you're venting from, you know, like a kitchen, but even if it means just putting a good fan in your window and trying to get
+
+[40:18] this stuff out, please make sure you ventilate properly because when you're doing a finishing of low temperature meats that you've cooked, you generate a lot of smoke and it can be problematic if you don't vent.
+
+[40:27] Does this make any sense? All right. So let's take one more commercial break and come back with cooking issues.
+
+[40:37] dest the whole,000 Minnesota, California free The Americ
+
+[41:13] Whoa. There's a very dark cover of the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef song. Yeah, it's like, wow. You see, whenever she says something like that, she leans back. I hope you folks at home heard that. Yeah, she's like, yeah, you think you think Joel's focusing on the slaughter aspect? Like, imagine, like, playing that, like, I can imagine, like, the helicopters flying in and like, you know, strafing the callus. So, you know, slaughter slaughter via mini gun. Hey, French, crossfed, beef. Crazy. All right. Uh, Tom Flashing writes in, uh, at drink away time, which is, I guess, his Twitter handle. For stabilizing frozen drinks, like margaritas is gum type important, xanthan, Arabic, guar, et cetera. Okay, look. I have not done a lot of testing, trying to stabilize frozen drinks, but here's the problem. So if you're talking about a frozen drink and a blender, right? The issue is stabilizing it is that ice floats. And when you're blending, you're making little ice crystals. So what you have in general is a nice kind of mixture of ice crystals and drink, then slowly the ice crystals float up to the
+
+[42:31] top and it breaks. Now, I guess what you're suggesting is to add enough of a thickener to the
+
+[42:38] product such that those ice crystals remain suspended. Now I guess it's possible to do it. And if it was very slushy, it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't want to use, so your choices were Xanthan, Arabic,
+
+[42:53] Guar. Okay. So Arabic is not so much a, uh,
+
+[42:58] going to be good for, um, keeping keeping the ice particle stationary, assuming we're even talking about the same thing. I think we are, right? Arabic is going to be more good at stabilizing air bubbles and foams, right? So for adding like a good, you know, foamy head or for emulsifying oils into something. So it's very good at emulsifying and it's good at kind of
+
+[43:20] adding body, but you have to add a whole boatload of Arabic for you to get like great viscosity out of it because Arabic is one of the very few
+
+[43:30] hydrocolloids that is ping-pong ball shaped instead of spaghetti shaped and ping-pong ball shaped things. Imagine trying to punch through a bunch of ping pong balls a lot easier than trying to punch through a mat of spaghetti or felt, right?
+
+[43:45] So think about it. So, um, gum Arabic, ping pong ball shaped, can, and that's why you can have extremely high concentrations of gum Arabic and still have things be liquid.
+
+[43:56] So I wouldn't necessarily use Arabic. If the application you're talking about is what I think you're talking about. Now, Guar, uh, problem with Guar, uh, aside from the fact that nine-tenths of Guar, uh, is not good. It tastes beanie because it hasn't been refined enough, but you can get really good refined
+
+[44:15] guar called flavor free guar. A couple people make it, but the one I use is from TIC gums, called flavor free guar. Plus also, you know, Guar very expensive now due to fracking, fracking, fracking. We talked about that a 1000000 times, right? Okay, so I don't need to talk about it again. Although it makes me angry. Anyway, not the fracking of the gore. And, I mean, maybe the fracking makes me angry. I don't know enough about it. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. Problem with Guar is that Guar is literally just a thickening agent. So it'll slow down how fast ice crystals are moving through the liquid, but it's not going to stop them,
+
+[44:44] right? Because guar solutions, have no what's called yield point. They flow slowly, but they always flow, right? So, I mean, just imagine this. They just they always, it's just a matter of how fast they flow. Xanthan, on the other hand, which is the 1st one that you mentioned, Xanthan
+
+[45:05] gum, has what's called a yield point, which means that even in fairly low concentrations,
+
+[45:12] in less a product is moving, the Xanthan acts like a gel. There's no movement at all. It's stationary. And then once you apply any force, it undergoes what's called sheer thinning, and it turns to a liquid very, very quickly, right? Very quickly. And this is a, this is like a well-known property of Xanthan, and it's why you can use Xanthan in combinations with other
+
+[45:37] things to do things like stop pepper and other
+
+[45:42] salad part, you know, salad dressing particles from floating to the top. You can keep them suspended. You know, fluid gels are also very good at this. So you can use, so orbits, the old orbits, uh, drink that had those little balls floating in
+
+[45:54] them was a fluid gel that was made out of geland gum that was
+
+[45:58] blended. And then with Xanthan added, right? Also, if you thicken somewhat with something like guar, you can add less xanthan. Here are the problems, right? over Xanthan products have a snotty, slimy texture to them. So you can add some, but you can't add too much. If you add like a quarter percent, if that's enough to suspend it, then you're okay, but if you have to add much more than a quarter a percent of Xanthan, uh, you want to want to start adding other things to help, uh, you know, help hold with this
+
+[46:26] antan, or you get these kind of snotty, slimy textures. The other thing is, is that the ability of a fluid gel or a
+
+[46:33] hydrocolloid like xanthane, with a yield point to suspend particles like ice, is very dependent on the density difference between the products you're suspending and the size of the
+
+[46:43] particles. So the bigger the density difference, the harder it is to suspend. And the larger the particle with a given density difference, the harder it is to suspend. Ice is quite a bit less dense than the drink that it's in, quite a bit less. And so it can be fairly hard to keep suspended. But that said, you could try some Xanthan and maybe anyone else out there has tried this. They can give it a shot. The only problem is, is if the drink sits around for a long time, and you've suspended it. Once it melts, it'll have that weird Xanthan look to it, right? So if someone's going to pound it right away, I guess it's not a big problem. But anyway, I could think more about it, but those are just my current thoughts. Yeah? Good. Yeah, yeah, stars today. I need her there. She like, she's like, Dave, shut up about this. Shut up. Okay, Morton Matson writes in again. which we appreciate. Dear Dave, thanks once again for your input on my quail egg conundrum, because we were talking about the ISI with the quail egg, and I think that's great. I want, you know, someone to, like if I, whatever. I think it's a good idea. I'm very happy I'm very happy with that. Anyway, I have a comment and a question for you. Firstly, I've been thinking about the question you had in last week about the use of nanoparticles in food. And so just to recap, you know, there's these particles, nanoparticles, and particle size is not regulated by the FDA, and therefore, you know, something that could be safe in normal
+
+[48:03] size might possibly be rendered unsafe by turning it into tiny, tiny, tiny particles.
+
+[48:09] So, um, right? So that is what we're talking about. The 1st thing that popped into my head was the appearance of nanoparticle solutions. A solution of
+
+[48:18] even-sized nanoparticles will appear as a clear colored liquid. The color of liquid is determined directly by the size of the nanoparticles.
+
+[48:26] The reason a clear, by the way, clear colored, you know, a lot of people, when
+
+[48:30] they, when they think about clear, they, they, the right thing to think about is clear versus cloudy, and then color versus, uh, you know, non-colored, right? So a cloudy, colorless solution is white and a, you know, a clear colored solution, it has a color to it. Now, a lot of people have this issue when they when we talk about clarification. They expect clarification to take the color out. Cla clarification doesn't take the color out. Clarification, all it does is take out the cloudiness. Um, Anyway, okay. So the color of the liquid is determined directly by the size of the nanoparticles.
+
+[49:05] The reason that the solution does not appear opaque as milk is that the scattering regime changes when the particle size gets comparable with the wavelength of visible light.
+
+[49:13] And by the way, emulsions are cloudy because, um, is me talking now. Emulsions are cloudy because the particles scatter light. Once you have what's called a microemulsion and the actual thing, you know, the emulsified product in it,
+
+[49:26] all of a sudden the particles get smaller than the wavelength of light, then the emulsion goes clear.
+
+[49:30] Anyway, that's random. In this regime, the behavior is determined by me scattering. I think it's pronounced me, although I don't know. I think so. Anyway, one application of this could be coloring drinks as almost any desired color could be achieved. Secondly, one could imagine changing the solution, such that nanoparticles flocculate together and change the appearance of the solution completely. Could we could have used this kind of concept when we were dealing with that drink you had to make in Florida that time. Remember stuff? Yeah, yeah. Colonial gold solutions are one candidate for this purpose. I've seen colloidial gold solutions approved for medical applications, so I would imagine they could be consumed. Generally on the issue of safety, I would agree with you that it is an issue that is riddled with bias thinking. It is, of course, also a very complicated issue, since the properties of the materials change when the particles become nanosized. This is, of course, also why we generally find them so interesting. I felt that one cannot make any general statements on the safety of nanoparticles. Rather, one should consider each one individually. And before I go on to the question, that's the comment, before I go on to the question, let me just
+
+[50:29] say, I went and looked on the internet at the pictures of different
+
+[50:33] sized gold nanoparticle solutions. And you know what really struck me is that the color difference based on the size of it very, very closely looks like the exact color shift that happens to
+
+[50:46] anthosine and pigments when the pH has changed. So they go from red to, well, red to violet, to blue to, to colorless. So, you know, and I never actually thought about it before. what the heck is going on, when you're changing the pH with anthoscience. I mean, it's got to be something where you're changing the confirmation or something of the
+
+[51:09] anthocyanin, and therefore, you know, changing its reaction to the way it scatters light. I never really thought about it. It's interesting that the gold, the gold solutions look almost exactly like anthosign and solutions at different pages. I mean, it's interesting to me, probably to no one else. Definitely not the nostalgia. Nostalgia's like, please, can I buy some shoes on Zapos? Please, please. you got the wrong size the other day, so. What? Are you for real? You and Piper ordering shoes for price? I think we single-handedly support Zappos. I've never ordered shoes on Zappos. You've never ordered shoes on Zapos. What shoe site do you shop on? Zero. I go to payless shoe source. You go to Payless, yes. on Delancey. on Delancey. They have a website. No, I go there. Whatever, whatever. She's not wearing pail shoes right now. Yes, I am. These are payless. whatever. That damn, whatever. I not going to get it. Okay, so the actual question deals with acrylamide. Within the last couple of days here in Denmark, all the news have been dominated by scares of
+
+[52:05] acrylomide and food. The reason for this is the technical University of Denmark has published a new study where they connected acrylamide to cancer. I couldn't get that study. Did you get emailed that study, Nostache? couldn't get the study. Maybe it's only in Danish. I was looking for it. I couldn't find it. Anyway, the technical University of Denmark has published a new study where they have connected acrylamide to cancer, presumably connected again because it's been connected a bunch of times and then debunked and then connected and then debunked.
+
+[52:28] This, of course, is nothing new in general, but their study includes statistics for humans as well as rats and mice. In general, for these studies, I've always felt is not fair to compare studies made on animals to humans. Humans are unique in having cooking eaten foods for 1000s of years, and therefore having been exposed to these products of cooking. I would like it if you could say a few wise words. I don't know about that. Few wise words about acrylamide. The problem here in Denmark is that the scare has reached a level where politicians are talking about making regulations towards
+
+[52:53] acrylamide. Since this means not being able to buy bread with a crust or even crunchy french fries, I'm naturally opposed to the idea. It seems that scientists making the studies have been victims of oversimplifications in the media, but still their results remain. I've seen a couple of papers where enzymes, specifically asparaganase, have been used to reduce acrylamide and potato chips. Does one need to worry about acrylamide, or is this another minor extra risk that we should be willing to take for the sake of good food? And also, can we find reasonable means of reducing acrylami without compromising the food we all love, best wishes, Morton
+
+[53:24] Matts, an interesting question. So, for those of you that are fresh to the acrylamide problem, here it is. In 2002, Swedish scientists found that what was known is known or has been known as both a human,
+
+[53:40] like reproductive harm, like mutagen, right? And also possible carcinogen, acrylamide, at least it was found to cause cancer,
+
+[53:49] haven't found to cause cancer in laboratory animals with very high dosages, by the
+
+[53:53] way. Turns out that it's occurring in foods, and it's not an additive. It just happens when products get cooked at high temperatures, right? And so, uh, and you know, anything that is browned or and contains starch, uh, has been found to
+
+[54:10] have uh, acrylamide in it, just naturally occurring. And so when this 1st came out in 2002, it was a big hoopla of, you know, what was going to go on. And then, of course, there was people, oh my god, they're adding this stuff to food. No, there's not adding, it's not new. It's not some sort of new environmental problem. It's always been there. Acrylamide has always been in our food supply. When I say always, at least since we've been cooking things. Anytime we've cooked things, uh, especially starchy things and we've cooked them to the point where they get brown and delicious, uh, acrylamai was formed. I haven't read the article you were talking about that was talking about asparagus, but according to the FDA, and I haven't
+
+[54:45] read, you know, all the hardcore studies. FDA site says acrylamized form from sugars and amino and an amino
+
+[54:51] acid, asparagine during certain types of high temperature cooking, such as frying, roasting, and baking. So there might be some way to reduce it there. But the, you know, it becomes a really sticky thing because now all of a sudden people are saying, well,
+
+[55:05] you, you know, you have this product, acrylamide, and it's in
+
+[55:09] all, all of the food that we eat, right? Basically, anything that's cooked, it's brown. I mean, if you're a raw foodist, you're safe, safe, safe. Well, from that. I mean, your bowels may be a different problem. But, like, you know, you're safe from acrylla mine. So, you know, and even if you don't eat bread or start coffee, right? Because it's roasted, cocoa, because it's roasted, anything that's roasted with its high temperature. So what are you going to do? And we have a thing in California. Well, I mean, I don't live in California, Styles has a thing in California called Prop 65. You familiar with that? No, no, no. You know the front? like Prop 65. So in California, if you have a, if you're on a list of, if you, if you have any product that you're selling that contains a known carcinogen, you have to write on
+
+[55:54] it, uh, that this product contains uh, something known to the state of California to cause cancer, right? And you're obliged to warn that it's in there. So there's a huge lawsuits because McDonald's makes like a zillion dollars selling
+
+[56:09] french fries every year. And so a bunch of lawyers went and filed lawsuits in California saying that they had to warn their customers that the
+
+[56:17] French fries might cause cancer because of acrylamide, because it contains acrylamide. And that was a big to do. And, you know, I mean, it's foolishness. Obviously it's foolishness. You know what I mean? you know, a friend of mine was involved with it and I told him, I was like, this is foolishness because it's always been there. been there. I actually went on the internet to look it up and there was a Starbucks that had the warning sign about acrylamite and coffee. I don't know whether that's actually deregur in California, whether someone just put it up as a joke. But anyway, people are taking that seriously. However, uh, you know, and here's the other problem with it. The numbers are all over the map. So, I, you know, if FDA has a very interesting site, because they don't really know what's going on with
+
+[56:53] Acrylic Mite. They're still trying to figure out what the heck the deal is. I tell you, here's what they say. In 2013, the FDA, this is straight off their website, FDA.gov. In 2013, FDA intends to issue guidance for industry concerning
+
+[57:05] acrylamide and food. Since 2002, the FDA has initiated a broad range of activities related to
+
+[57:10] acrylamide. FDA's accomplishments include the following, developing an action plan outlining the FDA's goals and planned activities, convening meetings, developing methods for measuring acrylamide, analyzing the acrylamide
+
+[57:22] results, which they did. They analyzed 2600 samples of food and krylamide, including like they'll go to like 8 different Popeyes. I think it was more like three, but like 3 different Popeyes, like 5 different RBs, like 2 different Burger Kings, and they'll measure the French fries, and all of them. And here's what sucks, right? So like different establishments or even the same establishment on different days or like one lace product and then a different lace product has vastly different, vastly different acrylamide levels.
+
+[57:50] So it's not even something that's like standard that they can tell. They don't really even know, I mean, you know, they're working on ways to get rid of it. But here's, here's, I haven't read. can't read the Denmark thing because I can't I can't get to it. I couldn't find it. But there is a study out that I will read the beginning of for
+
+[58:08] you that came out last year. Okay? It's called... review of the epidemia. Let me get it for you so I can get it for you exactly right. The review of the, uh, epidemiologic studies of dietary acrylamide intake and the risk of cancer. And I will read to you by Lauren Lipworth. I'll read to you the abstract. Conjectured associations between dietary, acrylamide, intake, and cancer have been evaluated in more than 15 epidemiologic studies, examining almost every major cancer site.
+
+[58:40] We have critically reviewed the epidemiologic studies of estimated dietary
+
+[58:44] acrylamide exposure and cancer. As substantially greater acrylamide exposure occurs through tobacco smoke than dietary exposure. We present the results separately for never smokers or adjusted statistically for smoking
+
+[58:54] status where possible. After an extensive examination of the published literature, we found no consistent or credible evidence that dietary acrylamide increases the risk of any type of cancer in
+
+[59:05] humans either overall or among non-smokers. In particular, this is the important part. The collective evidence suggests that a high level of dietary acrylamide is not a risk faster for breast endometrial or ovarian cancers, which have generated
+
+[59:18] particular interest because of a conjectured hormonal mechanism for acrylamide.
+
+[59:23] Moreover, the absence of a positive association between smoking and ovarian and endometrial
+
+[59:28] cancer cancers suggests that any association of these cancers with a much lower, more sporadic dietary acrylamide intake is unlikely. In conclusion, epidemologic studies of dietary acrylamide have, uh, intake have failed to demonstrate an increased risk of cancer, and
+
+[59:43] here's my favorite part. In fact, the sporadically and slightly increased and decreased risk of ratios reported in more than
+
+[59:49] 2 dozen papers, strongly suggest the pattern one would expect to find for a true null association over the course of a series of trials.
+
+[59:57] There. Therefore, a continued epidemiologic investigation of acrylic mining cancer risk appears to be a misguided research primarity, priority. In a reaction to that, uh, and not, uh, not,
+
+[1:00:12] unsurprisingly, it was called Reaction on the Acrylonite and Cancer Review by Lipworth and Colleagues, by uh, Janicky, uh, Huggeworst out of, um, uh, where is this from? They're from the Netherlands. And they basically they disagree with some of the things, but their conclusion is some weak sauce. There can be actual criticism in this article that is, we believe that the author's
+
+[1:00:32] statement that continued epidemiologic research into the possible link between dietary
+
+[1:00:36] acrylomide exposure and cancer appears to be a misguided priority is itself misguided and based on flawed
+
+[1:00:41] reasoning. We should be working towards better classification of dietary acrylamide exposure and establishing the possible mode of action rather than giving up on it entirely. So they're like, well, you know, we should give up, just not entirely, you know? That's like a weak way to end your paper, right? Week, week. We give up, which is not entirely. I can't find the Denmark study. Uh, but, I mean, to say this. If I have a slightly increased cancer rate, and this is a horrible thing to say, flippily, but
+
+[1:01:08] like if there is a slight, slight uptick, and it means that I can't ever have delicious
+
+[1:01:13] French fries again, to hell with it. I having the french fries, cooking issues. Hey Dave. Yeah. We've got one more write in. Somebody wants to suggest inflammo. Inflammo. Inflammo. Oh, wait, and Jack, I know we're late. We have a contest. We do. We have one final contest. So the just food conference, and if you don't know who just food is, they're a nonprofit organization that connects communities with local farms, really cool people.
+
+[1:01:35] We love them. We'll be doing a presentation on how to make your own podcast. The conference is this weekend, and we're giving away 2 tickets to the listener who can tell me the original theme song for cooking issues.
+
+[1:01:46] So tweet us, email us info at heritageradionetwork.org, and hopefully
+
+[1:01:52] you win. What are they going to get again? Two tickets to the Just Food Conference, which is this weekend. Okay, so hurry up. Hurry up. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:02:12] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local,
+
+[0:06] national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Cooking issues!
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. Whoa! Nice. Nice. Coming you live. Are we are we in Bushwick or Bushwick, Brooklyn? What is it? The 2nd one. And you know it's Bushwick because someone's jackhammering on our roof. Don't worry, it's just a radio station. How you doing, Stas? Okay. That's crazy. You hear that? I feel like this might be like, you know, Yosemite Sam's gonna come falling through the ceiling. Yeah. Joined as usual with Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Hello. Doing pretty good. Yeah, nice. All right. Going to questions two. 718-4972128. 7184972128. We might even be able to hear you over the jackhammering. Maybe. Maybe. So I was reminded by something. I biked here, and again, being out of shape and old. It's my 42 now. Just have my birthday. Yeah. Besides being out of shape and old and having someone jackhammer above my head. I was thinking about biking. We saw someone last week and biking through the streets in New York. and they were on the ground in a bloody pile, holding their head, rolling and writhing in pain, surrounded by a group of
+
+[2:11] people waiting for the ambulance to show up. And what's the moral of this? Wear a freaking helmet, people. If you're out there biking, wear a freaking helmet. I don't care how important your hair is to you. You know who I'm talking to, Brooklyn hipsters. Put on a helmet. What do you guys think of an engineering booth about helmets? I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a bad look. like bleeding out of your head. That's pretty bad look. Yeah, it's a terrible and I'll tell you what. Like everyone they move here from wherever they came from, right? Like they go to college or they do whatever they're going to do. They move to New York and they think that biking here is just like biking when they were kids back in like
+
+[2:52] east wherever they come from. You know what I'm saying? And here you will get hit by a car, you will get doored. Something awful will happen to you. You'll get your head cracked open, and you might even die. Where a freaking helmet. See, I drive, so I know exactly how crazy people are in cars. That's a good point. Well, you know, I'm that kind of guy. Like when I'm a pedestrian, I hate bikers in cars. when I drive a car, I hate pedestrians, but I just, I hate whoever I'm not at the time, but I try to be polite on the road.
+
+[3:20] Okay, uh, Michael Barfus writes in with 2 questions. One, hilarious and the other one kind of normal, right? I have to say, I really shouldn't bring it up because you guys at home can't do anything about it, but this hammering over my head is really driving me bananas. at the dentist. This is what it's like for you at the dentist. Nastasia, by the way, I hope that, I mean, obviously her dentist is not a listener to the show. But, you know, Nastasia's dentist is, I swear to God,
+
+[3:46] I used car salesperson. She will sell Nastasia any line of dental work. Anything, anything like, she's like, oh, you know what? You need to have all your teeth ripped out, and then the exact same ones put back in. You're gonna be under. Trust me, I did that work. You owe me a lot of money. And Stas is like, so I was like, hey, it's no problem. I got download shirts. It doesn't matter that, like, only one tenth of all this crap that's happening is covered and that you're paying for this lady's kids' college. She has had a new baby. Oh, nothing she needs more than Nastasia's money. And stuff she's like, but she's so nice. She's so nice. She has small hands. She's Japanese. What does that have to do with anything? I like, you don't want big meat hooks in your mouth? Okay, whatever gets the job done, Stas, you know, someone's going to take my teeth out and drill holes with me. worried about the thickness of their digits, if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, Michael Barfitz writes in. First, I live in Ohio and have pretty hard well water drawn straight from limestone bedrock. I don't know its exact composition, but it's probably mostly calcium carbonate with enough iron to make it taste kind of bad until the iron oxidizes, precipitates
+
+[4:47] out, and stains everything, at which point the water tastes fine. I don't know, the water is kind of a pain in the butt. How is your water in California? Awful, awful. Like sulfury awful or like hard, awful? Like, did it lather when you were in this shower or no? No, no lather? And that's about as much information I want about that as possible. Okay, uh, after reading your post on Niximilization, Niximilization, by the way, is the process whereby you take
+
+[5:11] calcium, uh, hydroxide, uh, and uh, Cal, and you uh, cook corn with it, and it breaks down the, the outside, the endosperm of the corn as well as uh, doing a bunch of awesome other things like making it taste awesome and making the hydrocollids out of the endosperm that make
+
+[5:26] masa such an amazing thing. Anyway, and freeing up nais and a whole bunch of great stuff. Anyway, after reading your post on miximalization, I put 2 and 2 together and realized it was not my excellent timing that made my broccoli so firm and green, but the hard water I was boiling it in.
+
+[5:39] And the reason why, for those of you that don't know, and this is going to come up later, is calcium cross-links with pectin. And when that happens, the pectin becomes much more stable towards
+
+[5:52] being broken down in high temperatures. When the calcium crossings with the pectin forms, they, you know, they crossing pectin, then like even boiling it for what would normally make a mushy product, right? Because pectin is the main thing causing the kind of crunchiness and the hardness of vegetables. If you stabilize the pectin, it keeps stuff crunchy longer, right? Anyway. And the other interesting thing about it is that so if you're using calcium hydroxide, 2 things are working against each other,
+
+[6:20] right? You're supposed to add a pinch of baking soda to water. If you're having problems with your vegetables turning, um, your vegetables turning, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, brown, right? Because the chlorophyll is getting ruined, um, So what happens is, is that's accentuated by acidic things.
+
+[6:35] So you had a pinch of baking soda to your water. The water becomes slightly basic and that preserves the green. So you get bright green vegetables. The problem is, is that basic conditions also destabilize pectin, make it break down much faster. So the problem is you get mushy products. So mushy broccoli, if you add baking soda to your water. If you use calcium hydroxide instead of baking soda, the calcium, by cross-linking with the pectin, cancels out the problem that you have with the basicity of
+
+[7:01] the normal basic things like baking soda, because calcium hydroxide is basic. And therefore, you can have green things that aren't mushy by cooking them with a pinch of calcium, hydroxide
+
+[7:10] of the water. Anyhoo, anyhoo. So the calcium in Michael's water is causing his broccoli to not go crappy. That was a long way of saying that. Just explain what the hell we're talking about here. Okay. This made me wonder if I've effectively got less basic lime water on tap. Well, you have water high in calcium anyway. Uh, what sort of benefits for being prepared in or with hard water and uh, uh, what other sorts of stuff benefits from being prepared in or with hard water? And what should I do about the iron in it? I know I'll definitely only make pickles with hard water in the future. Okay. Well, I mean, we all know hard water, it depends on how hard your water is, right? So, I mean, the obvious thing about additional, and it also depends. In your specific case, your hardness is coming from calcium. So one of the benefits you're going to get from it is increased firmness in vegetables that are boiled in it, okay? Even though as you're boiling it, so the calcium is kind of precipitating out. And so you have those probably. I'm guessing those nasty rings around the outside of your pants. I actually forgot to look up how to get rid of the iron in a normal way because I was focused mainly on
+
+[8:18] the calcium. You had me with calcium and then my brain went on Fritz and I didn't look up the iron. But, um, the obvious problem, right? So, I mean, you probably know what the problems are. But the obvious problem is things that you want to get really soft. things like beans, right? So, uh, beans have the problem that, uh, you know, you're trying to get them
+
+[8:37] soft, and if you add anything that contains calcium to the water or too much calcium to the water, the beans might never, ever go soft. And the same thing happens if you accidentally if you let's say you're making baked beans. And like me, you like a little bit of vinegar in your baked beans that have that
+
+[8:52] acidity and you make the mistake, as I only ever made once, of adding the acidity early in the cook process. And then you realize your beans never go hard. You ever have anyone try to make baked beans for you. don't like baked beans, right? Because you got brain problems. Are you like, you ever had anyone give you one that was like hard? Because they added the acidity early in the cook process or they cooked with really hard water or even worse, both. So, I mean, that's obviously a detriment. But the other place where I see you have a really, really large advantage with hard, hard water. And if it's basic, basic water is in noodles, and in some bread formulation. So making something more basic and increasing the calcium and other minerals in water, tends to increase the tenacity of gluten
+
+[9:37] structures, right? So you get firmer does. Now this is especially true when you're looking at noodles, specifically Chinese noodles. So if you if you do the research on consway, which is a mixture of, I think, potassium, uh, carbonate and sodium by carbonate, or some mixture of those things, basic things,
+
+[9:54] uh, often with calcium. These are added to noodles to enhance the gluten structure of the noodles, which makes them more elastic and stretchy. And also, in certain cases, makes them kind of a bright yellow. So if you see those kind of, they're called yellow alkaline noodles, and they're made by adding conway. However, the speculation is that this technique derived from trying to mimic the product that was made from people who had wells with exceedingly hard and alkaline
+
+[10:20] water. So you could see a significant benefit in certain types of
+
+[10:25] noodles and also certain types of bread does. Now, if your water is too hard, obviously, you can, you know, go too far over that edge and it's no longer an advantage anymore. But I would guess your main points of diversion in terms of being lucky with your calcium water is things like vegetables. Also preserving fruits and preserving tomatoes, I would suspect that if you use a canned tomato, if you have enough calcium in your water, you might not need to add as much calcium chloride or other form of calcium to the
+
+[10:58] to the mix to get the tomatoes to stay hard. And this is going to dovetail nicely with another question we have later in the show. But you might also, you know, be able to uh, do things like have Barry stay together better if you're making preserves out of them, assuming that you have extra water added to it, which you typically wouldn't,
+
+[11:17] but but there you have it anyway. In fact, uh, anyway, I'll do your 2nd question and then I'll go to the other question based on
+
+[11:24] Barius, which I was going to handle later. What do you think? Good? Yeah. I have to I have to always, I never know, like, whether I've been talking for one minute or 15 minutes, so I have to look over it. This is what I'm doing. I always ask nostasia whether that's okay or not, is because I have no idea what I've just said. So I have to ask her whether it's okay. have to look up for my shopping and say yes. So what are you shopping for today? anything good? I'm not shopping. Okay. If anyone out there, which I doubt, works for the Zappos Corporation... Oh my gosh, I've never bought shoes from them. This is what I want someone to confirm. I want someone to break whatever sort of customer confidentiality you have. And just send us an email says, yes, we've received the orders. Yes, my name is not on file. Payless. I told you. Okay, Michael, 2nd question. Second, how safe is it to use transglutaminates in 1st aid? This is a hilarious one, right? So transgutaminates. I'll just finish the question first. I'm going to try to not go tangential until I finish the question. It's my 42-year-old resolution to try to not go hyper tangential before finishing the question. Oh, 42. On the one hand, it seems like it could be good. quickly closing cuts and preventing them from easily being pulled back open. On the other hand, it seems like it could be extremely bad, potentially sealing in anaerobic
+
+[12:37] bacteria, or else short circuiting the natural healing process and causing terrible or awesome scars. I guess it depends on, you know, your view of terrible or awesome. You know, there's people who make scars on purpose, like a form of, you know, body art there. I don't expect it to be replacement for stitches if they're needed, but ordinary wince and slap a
+
+[12:57] bandit on it cuts heal well enough without professional attention. So can it be done safely? And if so, is it worth the effort? Thanks. I love the show. I've been tearing through the archives. Okay, so for those of you, we haven't talked about it in a while, so I'll mention what it is in case you don't know what it is. Transglutaminase is an enzyme that cross-links proteins, okay? So it literally takes 2 amino acids from 2 different protein
+
+[13:24] chains and covalently bonds them together to form a kind of protein
+
+[13:29] aggregate polymer, right? It's covalent bond. It not an ionic thing. Once it's made, it can only be broken physically. Even cooking it, right? Doesn't denature or with denatures of protein, but it doesn't break that bond. So, um, what, uh, you know, what 2 things were joined by transgutaminates let no one put asunder. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so our bodies have transglutamine as in them. This is a natural part of your body. In fact, blood clotting, to go back to wound stuff, blood clotting, what happens
+
+[14:01] is, is there's an initial thing that you form thrombin, right? Uh, how does it work? You have fibers, right? Thrombinax on it, it forms these aggregates of fibers. Then those aggregates of fibers are glued together into big clots by
+
+[14:15] transluthaminace in your in your blood system, in your body, in the presence of calcium. So going back to calcium again, transputaminating your body is dependent on calcium for proper activation. Okay? Now, microbial transcontaminates, which is meat glue, which is the stuff that we use to bond different pieces of meat together.
+
+[14:36] One of the amazing things about it. other than the fact that it's not derived from an animal, is that it, in fact, it's kind of unusual, right? To have something that's derived from a microbe that actually bonds things together instead of breaking the part. I haven't thought about it, but most of the stuff that I get actually breaks stuff apart. Huh. Anyway, uh, I get what? And what? Oh, tangentos. I thought you said something far more inappropriate. Anyway, so microbial transplutaminates can bond stuff together without calcium. So, the theory is then, can you use this thing to bond your skin together? And, well, the idea, I mean, you're not going to have a problem with anaerobic stuff. But the idea, I mean, people have asked me before, and it's hilarious, but also kind of like horrifying that you would take this
+
+[15:22] powder for cooking and like kind of glue yourself together with it because everyone always asks when we're teaching meat glue, like whether or not it will glue your skin
+
+[15:30] together. And the joke we always make is that, well, if you sand your forehead until it's bloody, and then sand your hand till it's bloody, and then bandage your hand to your
+
+[15:40] forehead and let it sit there without moving for 4 hours, then yes, you could probably buy it. But then you could always rip it off, you know, because the bond that you make with transgutaminates is usually only as strong as the bond between 2 adjacent pieces of muscle,
+
+[15:52] right? It doesn't bond it usually as strong as, you know, the whole muscle, unless it's in the presence of a lot of salt, et cetera. whatever. So, and also in microbial transgutaminates and stuff that you buy, Activa, especially if you get the RM, there's milk protein in it, which you don't want to like have in your
+
+[16:09] wound, all this other stuff, although you can get one with straight gelatin. But, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. So I went and looked it up, and there's a company that in, I believe, you know, sometime in the early mid 2000s called Lifebond, L-I-F-E, B-O-N-D, um, is making some goop,
+
+[16:26] some, uh, some transgutaminates gelatin goop. And they say that it's almost completely biomimetic. I, well, the word is self-evident, biomedic, and it's an awesome word, even Stas is sitting there going, biomedic, biomedic. In her head. I can see you're saying it. So like, that's, I don't know what kind of robot voice it is anyway. Uh, they're making this goop that you can put into your wounds and um, and actually it speeds healing. One of the things they're looking at is in battlefield situations where you need to like stop big wounds quickly and put things together in a way that can
+
+[16:59] stop like high pressure arterial bleeds. They're working on it. So, uh, it's very interesting. You know, and I'll read you from uh, from their patent, most high pressure hemostatic devices currently on the market, and high pressure hemostatic devices mainly means can stop blood in a high pressure, like an arterial situation. That's translated right down. Uh, or sideways. Currently on the market, are nominally, nominally, if at all, adhesive. And their point is that transglutaminates plus gelatin is adhesive to your tissue, massage making a nasty face here. Good examples of such devices are quick clot ACS, and heem con bandage. The 2 hemostag devices currently supplied to members of the U.S. Armed Forces. The mineral zeolite crystals and quick clot, uh, sponge cause absorption of the water molecules in the blood that's concentrating the clotting flactors and accelerating blood clotting.
+
+[17:51] So they're literally putting like an absorptive powder on you. They just like soaks it up and causes quick clotting, hence the name quick clot. Uh, the kitasan mixture that makes up heemcon has a positive charge that attracts red blood, red blood cells, which have a negative charge.
+
+[18:05] The red blood cells are drawn into the dressing, forming a seal over the wound and stabilizing the wound surface. So these guys at LifeBond have anticipated your question and are now making transgutaminates-based wound dressings, and we'll see how that goes in the future. But do not put Activa RM in your cut before you slap a
+
+[18:22] Bandit on it. Or if you do it, do not say that I recommended that you do so. Let's go to our 1st commercial break.
+
+[18:49] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[19:09] fete accompli for us to support heritage radio network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com. You in such trouble. Are we back? We're back. And welcome back. I never know because the jack will always throw in like, and like, I'll sit there and I'll gear into it. I'm back. And then like it's like, oh, it's like, hey, I'm Jack. Maybe I should bring it back every time I'd say, and we're back. And then you can come in, you know? Hey, I want to give a quick shout out to Ben Lambert, though, who just became a member mere seconds ago. Cooking issues listener. Thanks, Ben. Thanks. And you know what I was looking up? Probably no relation. In fact, I'm sure no relation. Lambert radiating bodies. No relation, I'm sure. You were just looking that up? Well, yeah, in fact, I can talk about it a little bit. Nice. Uh, so, um, is those you that listen to the show might be aware. We're working on a new product that's going to have the name, some form of Sally something, probably. And it forms as a little handheld salamander, right? And what it does is it diffuses and converts the flame from a torch into mostly
+
+[20:26] IR infrared heat. It makes it very, very even, and the advantage of this unit is that it's on almost instantly because the screens that make up the unit have a very, very low thermal
+
+[20:39] mass. So it turns, you know, cherry red almost instantly, like a couple seconds, right, Stas? Anyway. But when I had the initial people testing it, they were having some sort, they were having problems using it because they weren't thinking about, and we're going to do a video about this. Maybe I'll even post it on the blog eventually. We're shooting some tomorrow. The problem with it is, is that people are holding the unit as far away from the food as they would hold a normal salamander, right? And the fact of the matter is is that you have to hold it much closer than you would a normal salamander. And the reason, the reason for it, you know, is that most people aren't thinking about how heat from something like a salamander actually works.
+
+[21:23] So for those of you that don't have a salad man or don't even know what the heck I'm talking about. A salamander is a form of a commercial broiler, right? And the way that most commercial salamander's work is they have a series of bricks that have a bunch of holes in them.
+
+[21:38] Gas comes out of the bricks, and through the little holes, ignites and forms an infrared, like an infrared kind of plane of heat, right
+
+[21:48] there where the brakes are. And the thing is very long, usually, like on the order of 3 feet is typical for a salamander. And I'd say the bricks are maybe 6.5 , 7 inches across. Okay? So you have a strip of bricks that's about 3 feet long and 7 inches across. Now, the difference now, so take that, right? And so a long time ago back in the days when Michael Batterberry was still with us, and I was writing a lot for food arts, that, you know, for those of you
+
+[22:16] that don't know who Michael Batterberry is, go and look them up right away, he and Arianne were like, you know, huge influences on my life in terms of my career and a lot of other people who
+
+[22:24] are in the food business. You know, they've done a lot of good that they don't bother taking the credit for. Anyway. So back when I was writing for food arts. I had to write an article on what's called deck broilers. And deck broilers are things that actually most even restaurants don't have. But if you have a steakhouse or large hotel, you're apt to have a deck broiler. And what a deck broiler is, is imagine a bunch of salamanders, like where
+
+[22:46] the bricks are stacked next to each other to form, instead of just a strip of these bricks, a square, okay? And it always amazed me that even though each individual brick in a deck broiler has the same amount of energy that's leaving it per square centimeter, deck broilers are fantastically more powerful than salamanders in normal
+
+[23:09] operations, and also very, very even. And that's why they're really good for things like steaks, right? Why? The question is why? And the answer, and also, one of the problems with salamanders is that salamanders have what is called a sweet spot, and it's a line that runs all the way, you know, across the center of the long
+
+[23:27] axis of the salamander. And the issue is, is that a deck broiler is acting pretty much like an infinite plane of heat.
+
+[23:35] That's right. This is where we're going back to Lambert. not going to get into the nitty-gritty of it. But in an infinite plane of radiating heat, right, of IR of IR radiation, right? If you have an infinite plane or something that's approximating it such that basically the food can't see that literally see the edge of the
+
+[23:53] of the heater, then the amount of energy that the food is receiving from the heater is roughly independent of how far away it
+
+[24:01] is. So everything heats evenly, and the amount of heating is just a function of the output per square centimeter of the heater. Does make any sense at all? Okay, good. So, uh, deck broilers act like an infinite plane, and then anything within it is going to get heated evenly, and it doesn't matter within a couple, you know,
+
+[24:21] centimeters how far away it is, right? And this goes back to, you know, my son Dax is obsessed with this archer named Byron Ferguson, who, you know, Byron Ferguson, his motto
+
+[24:31] is, if I can see it, I can hit it. And Byron Ferguson can take an arrow, pull it off of his back, and he can shoot an aspirin out of this guy. Literally, his wife throws aspirin into the air, and Byron Ferguson pulls an arrow off of his back and shoots it, like as it's leaving his wife's hand practically, and his wife is so used to this that she doesn't even flinch. Imagine like, imagine what Jen would do if I was going to try to shoot an aspirin out of it. She should rightfully run run for the hills. You know what I mean? Like, this is not some sort of William Burrow situation with his wife with the apple on his head. Like this guy's real deal. So check him out, Byron Ferguson. anyway, if I can see it, I can hit it. And the same thing goes true with heaters. If you can see it you can hit it. So under a salamander, when a piece of meat is sitting there, it can see the
+
+[25:11] heater, and the heater can see the food all the way along the long line of it. So that section is working like an infinite plane, right? But the sides on the edge that are relatively narrow, it doesn't act like it. And the more the further you get away from something, and the less it looks like an infinite plate, the more it acts like a point
+
+[25:29] source, and a point source, the amount of energy you receive, like, goes down as the square of the distance from it. So anyway, long story short, the small salamander only acts like an infinite plane when you're very, very close to the object, right? And so long story short, you have to hold this object extremely close to the food when you're
+
+[25:48] cooking it. So that's why I was thinking about it. And that's a kind of a long digression based on Lambert. But you should also think about this when you're when you're cooking in general. And think about how large the heat source is compared to the food you're
+
+[25:59] cooking, and the larger the heat source is compared to the food you're cooking, and the closer your food is to it, the more even you'll be, if you can withstand that level of heating. Does that make any sense at all? So he's like, I don't care. I really just, I really don't care, right? Okay. So let's go to that 2nd question on calcium. We have, this is a nice one. Chris writes in, hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack Joe, and Indie Jesus. We have an awesome picture from Indie Jesus' Facebook, but apparently Jack says he wouldn't enjoy being referred to as Indie Jesus. I don't think so. Even though it's with, like, honestly, with all love. You know, I don't know. I'll have to ask him. Like, tell him it's with love. It is with love. And in this picture we have from Facebook, it's like indie cowboy. Like I said, he doesn't even like being called a hippie, so I can't really imagine how
+
+[26:47] Indie Jesus would affect him. You calling Jesus a hippie? Anyway. Yeah, no one no one in the studio wants to go there. Okay. I have a pectin related question. My goal is to firm up small fruits like blueberries so they won't rupture and bleed out in cakes, muffins, pancakes, et cetera. I know you've mentioned this technique in the past, but couldn't find it in the backlog and we love the appropriate ratio to use in the future. Thanks so much for the great show. Definitely highlight of the week and backlog is great for Sunday morning of kitchen cleaning. Without question, my food is made of jumping quality thanks to the radio show and blog. I now regularly use enzymes, gums, and prehydrated starches, in addition to my circulator regularly with delicious and consistent results. Chris, I like that. That's what I like to hear. like to hear that. Okay. So, the enzyme in question is pectin methylesterase. And it's the opposite of, you know, kind of the SPL, which breaks things down. cross-links, pectants in the presence of calcium. Now, most fruits have naturally occurring pectin methylesterase, and will cross-link somewhat if you have calcium, especially in the presence of heat. When the cells start to
+
+[27:57] break a little bit, release some of the pectin methylesterase. And if there's calcium present, you'll increasingly cross-link your product. That's why just a little bit of calcium and canned tomatoes. They usually use calcium chloride, unfortunately, causes those canned tomatoes to be really
+
+[28:10] stiff, and that's why those tanned tomatoes, when you use them in sauce, never fully break down, right? You've noticed that, right, Stas? Yes. So, um, Novozymes, uh, who makes the, um, who makes the,
+
+[28:22] uh, uh, you know, Pectonex Ultra SPL that we use and everything also makes something called Novo shape. And you can use it with calcium. I forget what the calcium ratios is, but you can use it the same way you use, um, um, um, PectionX Ultra SPL in
+
+[28:38] the sense you can use about a, you know, one or 2 grams per liter of
+
+[28:42] liquid, uh, that you're treating with. I would add a couple percent of calcium to the water, and then let it soak. And I've done that to raspberries, I vacuum injected,
+
+[28:52] and then boiled them, and the raspberry stayed whole in boiling liquid.
+
+[28:58] Now you want to make sure that, you know, that the liquid's roughly isotonic with the raspberries. So you got to add some sugar. Otherwise it'll just blast apart, you know, because of osmotic pressure. But, um, they I was astounded how well those suckers held together. Were you there for that test us? remember that? It's crazy, right? And I wanted to do that with brandied cherries, but, you know, there's a problem with the cherry harvest or there was a problem with people ordering cherries for me
+
+[29:21] this, and I can't taste them anyway. I wasn't really that juiced up because I, you know, I couldn't, I can't taste cherries because I'm allergic to them. Anyway, so that would work. You might try, and I don't know whether or not modernist pantry ever started carrying novo shape, but they could. Oh, the only thing it's, uh, you know, between them and that is uh, the investment in a 25 liter pail that they can then break up. And we never had enough application to buy our own 25 liter pail. We buy 25 liter pails of SPL all the time. Like, we're actually basically an industrial user of SPL now. his name can carry them. That's what I'm saying, Modern's pantry. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Chris Monter's pantry. He could probably buy a pail of it if he wanted to. And then you just add calcium, add novo shape and let it soak and you're good. So I would do that. I would also just try adding straight calcium and letting it soak for a while on the
+
+[30:10] calcium and then you can bring the heat up and see whether or not it has preserved them or
+
+[30:16] not. But anyway, that's what I would, that's what I would do. Yeah? No? You know how they make the fake blueberries in the real life? I've said this before, yeah. Yeah, alginate. They actually, what they do is they take blueberry juice, and they make, they put a sphere of blueberry juice inside of an alginate shell of blueberry juice, and that sucker lasts
+
+[30:36] forever. It's not real, but it lasts forever. and that's, in fact, that was one of the, like, that was one of the original thing well before anyone, like, you know, Faran was using
+
+[30:46] alginate balls. Alginate balls were being used in industrial applications for things like fake blueberries, things like fake onion rings,
+
+[30:53] things like that. Anyway, so there you have it. What is it? Is that good? Yeah, she's like, I don't care. I really don't care. just want the pizza. I just want the pizza. I was like, why do we do this show? Free pizza. You know how much easier it would be for me to just buy you a pizza every week? No? you know, I mean, whatever. I can afford the pizza. All I'm saying. Okay, Pete writes in, dear Dave at all. Over the years, my family and I have typically procured our hams from local country growers who let their pigs forage in the
+
+[31:23] woods. I have often read that there has not been a case of trichinosis in the U.S. from pork since the 1950s, but given the source of meat,
+
+[31:30] I have always cooked my country hams to an internal temperature of 137 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[31:35] I know from talking to growers and hunters that forest fed and feral pigs, that's a great
+
+[31:39] word, feral pig, right? Yeah. Feral pig. The style is actually, I'm surprised, she likes that word. I could tell. Let's tell my look on her face. Fero pick, do you know why? Do you know why, people? Because she loves cats and like as soon as you say the word feral, the word cat pops into her head. and she doesn't even think about the word pig. The pig just leaves and it's a feral cat, which is like inherent love. Right? favorite animal. Feral cats or just cats in general? Girl cat. Nastasia goes to me the other day. She goes, can we get a cat at the lab? I'm like, we already have you. You sit around and like, you know, bat things around and whatever anyway. attack your ankles. God I hope not. That would be an all time low. Where were we? Feral pigs. Oh, yes. Okay. I know if I'm talking to growers and hunters that forest bed and feral pigs will consume any carrion they come across. This is true. In fact, I read an article in the 1800s in West Virginia where they imported a bunch of pigs to a particular area of West Virginia that was infested with snakes, and the snakes just, I mean, and the pigs just wipe the snakes
+
+[32:40] out, just wipe them out. ate every snake that was there. And reports of the hams made from those snake fed pigs, which they were quite good. Yeah, yeah. You can go, you can go look it up. I looked that up, you know, many, many years ago when I was researching country hands for the 1st Museum of Food. Pig versus snake. You wouldn't guess, huh? Pitts are some harsh suckers, man. This is why, like, you know, like, have you ever watched Robert Mitchram's last movie when he's like a boar hunter? I mean, like wild pigs are not animals that you trifle with. You know what I mean? Don't go messing with the wild pigs. Anyway, we'll consume any carrying they come across. Years ago, I read a study that indicated salt curing and at least 9 weeks of hanging was sufficient to destroy any trichinella larvae. Your recent suggestion that one does not have to cook your country hands, got me wondering about this again. Is this still the thinking? Have there been any recent revelations about the resiliency of trichonelysis? Love the show, Landon. PS, I have been freezing my pork for Italian style curing of whole muscles to ensure that I end up with trichinella free meat.
+
+[33:39] I would love to not have to do that. Okay. Here's the deal. Go to, you want to go to AFIS, which is the Animal Plant Health Inspection Services section on pork. And by the way, for those of you that don't know what trichinosis is, these little worms that you can get from consuming undercooked meats,
+
+[34:02] you know, pig used to be the big one you got from pig, but also bear,
+
+[34:07] any kind of wild meat, right? And you get them in, and then it's the disease is measured in number of worms per cubic centimeter muscle mass, and it causes huge havoc because they invade your muscles and it's
+
+[34:19] just, it's a nightmare. plus it's just, it's gross, right? Does anything gross you out more than that? Is that one of the grosser ones for you? Where your muscles are just invaded by these worms? awesome, right? Anyway, so that's the problem with pork. And so for a long time, that's why they had, you had, you cooked the hell out of your meat. Okay. Here is what we have to say. Here's what the Animal and Plant Health inspection services has to say on their website about trichinella and pork. Um, Trichonosis has a long-standing association with pork products. Not only in the US, but around the world, a concept which many people have about the need to cook pork thoroughly is based on the risk of becoming infected with this parasite. This concern is well founded in history. At the beginning of the 20th century, conservative estimate showed a 2.5
+
+[35:03] infection percent infection rate in U.S. pigs. Even more alarming, where the postmortem surveys conducted in a 1930s, a National Institute of Health Report published in 1943 found that 16.2% of the
+
+[35:16] U.S. population of pigs was infected, one out of every six. This type of information led us to considerable publicities about the danger of eating pork. The historical problem of trick and eye infection in pigs is responsible for strict federal controls of methods used to
+
+[35:30] prepare ready to eat pork products in the US, and expensive carcass inspection requirements in Europe. These regulations are still in effect in the code of federal regulations for
+
+[35:39] process products, and then the directives of the European Union. Actually, hold on a second. going back and rereading that. It didn't say out of every pigs, it says 16.2% of the US population of people had some form of chicken nose chickenella in their in their system. That's gross. It's gross. I don't even believe that. I don't believe that. I believe that. Not even for that. Okay, okay. Despite the historical problems of Trick and I and its association with the pork industry, major changes have occurred in the last 50 years.
+
+[36:04] Human cases of uh, instead of saying trichonosis, they write trichonnellosis, trichonnellosis. I'm just going to call trickinosis crap on these guys. Reported to the centers for disease control, decline from about 500 a year in the 1940s to fewer than 50 a year over the last decade. Further, many of these cases result from non-pork sources such as bear and other game meets. A major decline has also occurred in the prevalence of this parasite in pigs, while prevalence has declined considerably in the U.S. pigs, the lowest prevalence rates in domestic pigs are found in countries where meat inspection programs have been in place for many years, including the EU, notably Denmark and
+
+[36:39] Netherlands. These countries consider themselves essentially free of trickinosis. The dramatic declines in trichonine pigs reflect changes in the industry. Historically, infection and pigs was associated with feeding of raw garbage. Major trends were major inroads were made into trichinosis infection with the advent of garbage cooking laws passed between 1953 and 1954 and the
+
+[37:01] hog cholera eradication program of 1962. Of equal importance has been the movement to high levels of biosecurity and hygienes under which most pigs are now raised. Still, opportunities for exposure to pigs exist and some precautions should be implemented. Uh, so anyway, so... That's the thing on pigs and what's dealing with. But your stuff does not adhere to this because it's from wild pigs. So for a long time, they're considering getting rid of it. Now, uh, the good news is, is, as you say, you can kill pigs, kill kill pigs. You can kill pigs. You can kill trichinosis by cooking meat for a mere 47 minutes at the core at only 52 degrees
+
+[37:38] Celsius or 6 minutes at 55. Also, as you note, deep freezing causes the trichinosis worms to be killed and
+
+[37:48] assist to be killed, but you don't want to have to do that. Now, unfortunately, there is no single set of, you know, you do this salt, do that that can guarantee that they will safely admit guarantees trickonosis.
+
+[38:00] However, all you need to do for curing your own stuff to figure out whether it's safe to eat without
+
+[38:05] cooking is go to. The U.S. Department of Agriculture's code of federal regulations. Search on this one. Ready? Title nine, chapter three. Paragraph 318.10. And that one, that paragraph. I read it this morning, but it's too complicated to go to, lists all the specific curing mechanisms that you can use to destroy
+
+[38:27] trichinosis in pork without having to go through a free step or a cook step.
+
+[38:35] And they all are combinations of salt levels per pound of meat, a specific contact time of salt on meat in days
+
+[38:43] per, I think days per whatever. I forget what it is. And then holding in the drawing room for a certain number of days, with a certain amount of equalization to assure
+
+[38:51] trichinosis death. So, if you follow those rules precisely or greater, those rules are
+
+[38:57] greater, in other words, that amount of salt or more, that amount of time drawing or more, that amount of water loss or more, then you're guaranteed a safe product from a trichinosis standpoint.
+
+[39:09] But if I were you, if you're dealing with feral hogs, don't fool around with this one, make sure that you conform to the specifications that are laid out in Title 9, chapter 3, uh,
+
+[39:21] subpart 3, 18, 10. But, uh, is my impression that you, when you're doing country hands specifically, you do not need to uh, freeze as long as you follow their
+
+[39:30] rules, but please don't just take my word for it, read that chapter in
+
+[39:34] its uh, entirety. I want some wild pig meat. You know, the only time I've ever had, you know, so interesting thing about pigs. And you say that they were eating, I think there's, you said they were, I can't go back and find it, but eating stuff they eat off the forest. Only one time if I had a USDA slaughtered pig that was eating fallen
+
+[39:53] nut meats. It's called mask, right? So when stuff falls off the trees, which happens in the fall, pigs eat, eat it, right? And so if you happen to be in a place where you get a lot of nuts, like hickory nuts and things like that, the pigs take in a lot of, um, a lot of these kind of nut fats and their, uh, fat composition after
+
+[40:12] a number of weeks of eating this tends to conform more to uh, these, um, these nut fat ratios. And the fact it's softer, right? Which is bad actually for certain sausages where you want the back fat to be very hard, but amazing for things like
+
+[40:25] ham. And the closest American ham that I've had to the Ibirico fed, the Ibirico, the Biota fed, Ibirico, which they feed off of,
+
+[40:34] you know, chestnuts falling from the trees in the Hesse in Spain. And so the amazing thing about that isn't just that those guys in Spain are good at curing their meats is that the actual composition of the fats is altered by
+
+[40:49] the chestnuts that they're eating and it just has its amazing acorns, rather. Chestnuts. What heck's wrong with my brain today? I don't know. The hell is wrong with me? 42 what? Years old. Oh, yeah. Did I say chestnuts? The hell. And then acorns. How's wrong with me? Actually, I need to have my head examined. Anyway, although chestnuts would be delicious. And chestnut fed hogs are also delicious. But anyway, if they're eating nuts, they get this kind of soft and amazing fat. And I had one from Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. Tennessee. What the hell's wrong with me? where the pigs had been feeding. They were Tamworth hogs, and they'd been feeding on these hickory nuts that were falling off the trees, and it was, from a fat composition standpoint, probably the most amazing American country ham I've ever had.
+
+[41:31] So, I don't know, take that for what it is. that your hams are delicious if you're making it that way. Yeah? Okay. Uh, delete Row rights in. His Twitter handle is at Leapers 500. There's 499 other leapers out there. What is a leaper? I don't know. Do you know where a leaper is? I don't know. don't know. Okay. Okay, he's going to Coachella, which is a 3 day concert, and he's camping with a gas stove for 3 days and trying to find a trying to figure out food and drinks. Here's what I would do. So the issue is, if you were to use normal ice cubes, right? You'd get a huge amount of to preserve your food. So I'm assuming you have big coolers and you don't want to have to plug anything in. Get giant ice cubes. What I'm saying, giant, I don't mean small. I mean, giant. I'm talking big. I'm saying like get a bunch of coolers and get ice cubes that are like a foot by a foot blocks.
+
+[42:22] The larger the ice cube, the larger the mass, right? Per surface area, and your melt rate is going to be determined in part by how good your igloo cooler is, but also by how much surface area is available for the melt water to occur.
+
+[42:34] If you have a giant block like that. It should have no problem lasting 3 days in an adequate cooler. And then you could put your food next to it. And then you could chip off pieces of it for making your drinks, right? Especially if you just practice a little bit because it'll be tempered because it'll be at 0 the whole time. So you'll be able to like chip amazing pieces off of it. So you could do shaking drinks, but you could also make amazing stir drinks with it because your ice is, because you're going to have to buy this ice from someone, right? So you go you go to whoever is, like, your local ice sculpture person. You buy a £200 block or, and you have them saw it into large, into small enough blocks that will fit into the coolers that you have, and then pack, again, pack, you know, put it on a grate so that it's sitting off the bottom, so it's not sitting in its own water, so you can drain off the extra water when you need it, and then have the food sitting next to it.
+
+[43:20] By the way, there's also, that's the way that, that's the way that in Japan, the hardcore sushi chefs store their fish. They buy big coolers, big fridges. They unplug them because they don't want the air circulating on the inside and then they put giant blocks of ice in to keep their fish exactly where they want them. So you should be able to keep your food good. Unfortunately for you, we don't have my, you know, you don't have my, my torch attachment yet because that would be sick. That would be sick out there because you could you could stay cooked that way. It's a little bit of a pain in the butt to cook a steak from 0 to 0 to 100 that way, but it's pretty damn good. Um, but you say you have, uh, I think, did you say you had a circulator beforehand? You could pre-bag the meats as long as you can ensure that your ice stays good. You could do a pre-cook on a lot of your stuff and then flash grill, all of your stuff, not use that much charcoal if you're allowed to have
+
+[44:06] charcoal there. You've been to Coachella? I don't think Is that where they had the Tupac Shakur? They had the they had the holographic Tupac? Yes, that was it. Tupac was there last year. Yeah. So who are they going to hologram this year? Huh, I don't know. I mean, it would be kind of poor form to do Biggie, right? Well, I don't know. I mean, you know, be a nice holograph hologram, rather. Okay. So yeah, but it says you have a gas stove. So you should be go. If you have a circulator, I would circle a bunch of stuff in bags, put it in bags so they don't get contaminated by the fact that they're all sitting together with your giant
+
+[44:41] ice and then just bring straight booze, do a lot of delicious dirt drinks, and then occasionally some shaking drinks. limes are fine sitting on their own. you don't even need to refrigerate those suckers, bring as much stuff as you can that doesn't need to be refrigerated and
+
+[44:52] go from there. Your melt water is also good, so you can use your melt water for cooking things like pasta because if
+
+[44:56] noastasia goes with you, She needs to have pasta. She thinks must, must, must. Right? Yeah. Okay. Michael Napkin. What's it called? James Beard Award nominated, Michael Notkin, friend of the show, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and as everyone knows, Nastasia loves your book. Anyway, at cooking issues, have you ever written down your carbonation rig? I need to build one for at chef steps. Uh, no. So, um, have I ever written it down? I've described it a couple times, but I've never written it down. Okay, Mark Powers. I buy all of my carbonation stuff from an outfit called Mark Powers in Guntersville, Alabama. And I love those guys because they're the cheapest people anywhere. Like, they're so cheap that it's like they're, they, they define cheap. So what you do is, is you call those guys up. You order a £20 or if you don't want to order a £20 if you want a smaller rig, a £5 CO2
+
+[45:51] tank, it will arrive empty. Okay? They shipped a kind of nice aluminum ones. You need to get along with that a, um, what's called
+
+[46:00] a, uh, they're high pressure regulator. Now, I don't really like those regulators for commercial use, the ones that they sell, they sell Tapright
+
+[46:07] brand, and the Tapright brand regulators that they sell tend to get broken very easily in
+
+[46:12] service if people are rough with them or knock them about. Uh, and then they start having problems, not safety problems, but they start having problems. So if you can afford a nicer regulator, you can go with like a smith or something like that or
+
+[46:25] Victor or nicer regulator. The tap rights work fine and they are, by far and away, the cheapest ones you can get. I don't think that Mark Powers sells them, but you can buy cages for the Tapright regulators, and the cages prevent you from damaging the
+
+[46:39] gauges and the regulator by banging it about. I would definitely invest in those if you can get them from them. Then all you need are the hose barbs and the hose, and you go directly into what's called a ball lock or universal,
+
+[46:54] either universal Pepsi or ball lock fittings, and they're different from coke or pin lock fittings. And the ball lock fittings from Pepsi. You want the ones that are gray, right? They're either gray or black and one's for product and one's for gas. I think the gray is gas, all I can never remember, but this system uses the gray. And they became kind of the de facto thing that homebrewers have used when they're using the old 5 gallon Cornelius Kegs, which is how they used to make
+
+[47:22] soda for brewing. And I used to do it back in the day, everyone does it. So it's the de facto homebrew technology of these ball locks, and they're almost free. They're like $2 for a connection. So you buy, you buy those, you buy the hose. I usually use quarter or 38s ID, reinforced hose. I forget the name of the brand that they stock at, uh, in uh, those guys stock, but it's like
+
+[47:43] called like, like hose master or something like that. And they'll ship you all the stuff by far and away the cheapest possible way to do
+
+[47:52] it. Then you go on any homebrew site, and you get the liquid bread carbonator caps, and then you're ready to rock and roll.
+
+[47:59] You just need some soda bottles. And that's how we carbonate at the bar. At home, I have an actual McCann carbonator, which you can also get
+
+[48:06] at pretty good rates from those guys. And I use, I use, in addition to what's called a primary regulator, which takes the tank pressure on the CO2, which is like, you know, upwards of £800 or
+
+[48:17] whatever depends on the temperature. Uh, and converts it to 1st a high pressure, which I take off at usually about
+
+[48:23] 100 psi. And then I go into a secondary regulator, which I take it off at cocktail carbonation pressure, which is generally about 40 to 42
+
+[48:30] PSI. Advantage here is I can take the high pressure from my 100 pounder. I can drop it into a commercial carbonator. And the reason you need to run those at 100 PSI is because those things are carbonating water at room temperatures. So you need a much higher gas pressure, but they're awesome. And then I have a water filter so that the water goes in, gets injected in under high pressure, carbonated water. It goes through 2 circuits of a cold plate, not one, 2 circuits of a cold plate to chill it down. The only problem with my rig at home. is that I wasn't able to put an ice maker underneath my counter. So my, instead of having an automatic ice maker. I have an eight-year-old in the house named Dax, and he takes the ice out of my freezer and daily dumps it into the ice bucket to keep the seltzer cold. Back at the lab at 54 in Chinatown, we
+
+[49:15] have an ice maker that dumps directly on the cold plate. And so there we have our ability to carbonate cocktails and sodas and our ability to have seltzer on tap. Uh, a day without cell ser on tap is a day without sunshine. Right? And I think that's it for today, right? Cooking issues.
+
+[49:43] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:12] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surreyfarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Cooking issues!
+
+[0:57] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of good news. coming to you live. What? Every Tuesday. 2nd time I've done that to you. Sorry. No problem. From Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. We are not joined with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. She is calling. Oh, but we are. Well, no, but not live, not in the studio. She is called in too. 718-497218. That's 7184972128 and you can too with all of your cooking related questions. So, Nastasia and Jack and Joe are here in the engineering booth, as always, hey, hey, gentlemen. Hello. So Nastasia has lost all credibility with the cooking issues in the Heritage Radio team because we've heard her talk a big game about how much she hates
+
+[1:46] this springtime weather. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, hates the springtime weather. Hate springtime people, hates people when they like the springtime weather, and where are you right now, Nastasia? I'm at the beach, but I'm so happy that I'm not
+
+[2:02] in New York because I don't have to see everybody in their flip-flops and the hipsters on their bikes and all that stuff. You're at the beach seeing all that. What the hell's the difference? No, there's no hipsters here. 0 hipsters. So, uh, are you, so she is in uh, Rhode Island, and are you familiar with the actual full name of Rhode Island, Nastasia? No? Well, it is the... Well, it's the smallest state in our union. However, it has the longest official name. It is the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. were you aware of that? Whoa, no, I wasn't. Yeah, it's like, it wasn't enough just to be the smallest. They also had to like tag the biggest name. And then they shafted the shafted Delaware. Almost, almost the smallest, but we got no sales tax. I think that's kind of what Delaware said, right? Because they couldn't change their name to like Delaware of Delaware and the Delaware, Delaware plantation, because that would just be copying, right? Right. Yes. So, uh, is it, uh, I assume it's nice over there, although you know, I would hate it. Yeah, you would hate it. I'm not on it. I'm away from the sand. Yes. For those out there, I'm big. I like the idea of a beach. I love the beach in the wintertime, but the sun is my mortal enemy. anyway. Okay, we got some questions in from Ryan Santos regarding Centrifuge. Hey, Dave and Nastasia. A customer who recently retired from medical equipment sales gifted us with an unused
+
+[3:23] centerfuge she had in his storage. It's small and runs fine, but is missing the containers for the inside. Though some research, uh, through some research, the maximum uh, this machine can take is 4 by 50 milliliter conical tubes. And as you're probably aware, those 4 small tubes and adapter are not cheap. 4 to $500 in total. Obviously, with the quantity limit, we won't be able to use, you know, the amount they can spin in at one time. We won't be able to use it for any real practical production use because 4 times 50 milliliters, as you guys can do in your head, maybe is 200
+
+[3:54] mils, which is a small amount. Um, is there any small specialty use that would warrant spending this kind of cash at that
+
+[4:01] quantity? Will it hardly yield anything, even just for fun personal use? Well, $4 to $500 is a lot to spend on the tubes for a 200 mil machine. Now, if I didn't get a chance. It's a thermoscientific IEC centrist CL2. I didn't get a chance to look at the specific specs on that machine. Uh, but let's just say for the sake of uh, for the sake of argument that it can do, you know, 3 to 4000 G's, uh, and it has, uh, it doesn't have the, like an R anywhere in it. Usually refrigerator center if you just have like a letter R in it somewhere. So it doesn't have a fridge. So you're going to be spending $500 to be doing 200 mils. Now, 50 mil tube is a lot for 250 bucks or 200 bucks or whatever, you can go on Amazon.com and buy one that does that does 100 mils at a time, half that for like half the price. But those small tubes that it uses, the small one. What the one that we use, Stas? What the name of it again? You have one too. Do you remember? Oh, yeah. I'll have to look it up like champion something, right? It's like champions. I'll look it up. Um, you know, that one's only a couple 100 bucks, uh, and it's new and you can almost like get rid of it when it's done. 200 mils is not going to be enough for large production runs. I would see if you can get it cheaper. If you actually have the metal tubes and you're just looking for the bottles, then, you know, you can get away with cheaper
+
+[5:21] not using it all. But I personally would be hesitant to invest $500 in something that can do 200 mils if you have the space to get a larger size one because, you know, for
+
+[5:32] a $1000, you can get a really good condition, uh, 3 liter unit, you know, like a 1000 to $1,200. So, you know, I would be hesitant. But on the other hand, if all you have is $500 and you want to get into centrifuges, it's the kind of thing where, you know, if you don't have a centrifuge yet and you want to take the plunge, then, you know, anything you can do to get you into the
+
+[5:52] centrifuge business is going to, uh, eventually be good for you because I've never had someone who's gotten a center. There's a couple things like that. It's like the Vita Prep. It's like an immersion circulator. No one's ever like, damn, I didn't use that. That sucked. You know what I mean? It doesn't happen. There are other pieces of equipment where I can see a little buyer's remorse when you're done with it. But if you're buying a centrifuge for commercial use in a restaurant or
+
+[6:16] in a bar, it will pay for itself. So long as you use it right and, you know, use it for menu items where it's going to save you big money on yield on your expensive items, it's going to make money back.
+
+[6:30] So, if it takes $400 to get you into the centrifuge thing so that you can then eventually go buy your 3 liter, then I think in the end you win.
+
+[6:40] What do you think, does? Yeah, anything that's good. And it is called the champion E 33 benchtop Centerfuge on Amazon. We got to get we got to get Buju Banton to rep that
+
+[6:50] singing like a champion, walk like a champion for that centrifuge. You think we can put those 2 guys together? They're down in Georgia or Florida somewhere. And I think when he's in the U.S. He's down there. Well, I'm saying, I think that's where he got arrested down there. So maybe they can arrange something. Does anyone know his Buchu Banton's still in jail? Were those cocaine charges trumped up? Does anyone know? Does anyone even know who I'm talking about? I'm gonna Google it. All right, there we go. Okay, so there you have it. Now, uh, oh, by the way, for those of you out there, uh, we decided for the torch to go with the name,
+
+[7:21] Seers all, because, uh, Nastasia, does it sear some things? No. Most things? No. So if you have anything, choose anything. If you have that, will it steer that? Yes. So it's pretty much a Sears all. Yes. Seers all. Yeah, all right. Yeah, not seer some. That would be a terrible name. Sears Sum would be like the worst name in the world, but Sears All, that's a strong name. However, uh, Nastasia still has a soft spot for, uh, excuse me, for uh, all searing eyes. So she says that under her breath all the time. She just walks around mumbling it. She, you know, in, uh, in, you know, 30 years, she's going to be that she's going to be that lady wandering around the little east side, mumbling, or Hell's Kitchen, mumbling. Oh, Siri, hello, Siri. That going to be her. And I still refer to it as the Sally Sears all because I like the word Sally, but, you know, there you have it. So that's the name. Uh, and uh, we shot some videos. So look for some video up on the blog soon, showing techniques on
+
+[8:20] how to use it and kind of what it's good for. Now, Ken Ingber, longtime listener, supporter of MoFed. I don't know if he's a supporter of the radio network or not. I don't know But a supporter of the Museum of Food and Drink, and a long time listener, writes in and is excited about the sears all, but has these questions. One, what does this product do that an inexpensive widely available and
+
+[8:42] time tested electric pay stripper will not do? If a lower temperature is key, is it possible that a home cook might be better off with
+
+[8:50] the lower temp on a paint gun? I have used the paint gun. And, um, I think it's, it's a, there's a couple things I don't like about it. One, they're actually not cheap. Like paint stripping guns are like, you know, you'd think that they're like 20
+
+[9:05] bucks. They're not. They're like 80 bucks or more. And so they're actually, uh, we mean, they're more than what we hope to sell this unit for. We don't know what we're going to sell it for because a lot depends on how much it costs for insurance and shipping and boxing and all that other
+
+[9:20] stuff. But we're hoping to have it be price competitive with those guns. Secondly, those suckers require a cord, which I detest having a cord running around. They don't heat up as quickly as you'd like. And it's kind of hard to judge. I've used them before. They just don't do the same thing. It's just not the same thing. They're just not the same. Having used those things. Now, I like those hot air guns for, for other things for heat shrink tubing, man, those things cannot be beat. I used to have one. Someone stole it. Have you ever notice that happens with me? I lend something to people, stars, and then they just steal it from me. Equipment, techniques. Okay, okay. So the ladder makes me the most angry. I'm just kidding. I'm just messing around with you. That's not you're not kidding. Well, uh, whole ingest, half in earnest there. Anyway, okay. Uh, two. This is, I can't ask you more questions. Would I get the same effect if I held an $8 replacement camping light gas mantle with tongs in front of a torch? I mean, leave aside the bonus thorium on my chicken skin. Well, for those of you that don't know, what they do is they take a, I think it's, I don't know what the fiber is, but it's a fiber, it's a fiber that they weave into cloth. This is how they make those really bright gas lanterns for camping. They take a cloth, they put some like a very high temper factory fiber in it and they dope it with thorium, which
+
+[10:38] is, you know, a substance. And then when they when they light fire to it, the fabric burns away and the mantle becomes exceedingly fragile. And then the whole sucker incandesces like a weasel when you light it on fire. And that's how those mantle based gas lamps work. Now, trick with that is, besides the awesome thorium, as you point out, mantle's quite small and exceedingly fragile. And also, like, you know, they're not, yeah, just, excuse me, wouldn't work the same way. The I bike today, which is why you hear the incredible hacking and coughing every once in a while. I inhale some more of that cement. You know that cement play stars? It's like you make it all the way here and you're fine, and then like a block from Roberta's, you inhale like a lung full of cement dust, and then you're hacking and wheezing for the rest of the day. Anyway, so I don't think it would work for that reason. Secondly, when you have tongs and you're shooting at something, you know, you tend to lose a lot of heat to backspray, which is why we have the cone. The real trick of the whole device here is an incredibly low thermal
+
+[11:34] mass, such that the sucker heats up very, very quickly, but doing that with a material that maintains its structural integrity and
+
+[11:40] strength at the elevated temperatures that we're talking about. And they're quite hot. The inner screen, the outer screen probably only gets up to like, oh, I don't know,
+
+[11:49] like 1300 Fahrenheit or something like that. But the inner screen probably gets up closer to like 1700 Fahrenheit or something
+
+[11:56] like in that range. So it's right at the upper level of even what the metals we're using can do. in fact, we're still playing with the alloys there. So those mantle is extremely fragile. This thing needs to be more kind of bullet for kitchen use. Yes, Daz? Yep. Yep. Number three. Are you doing anything about stability? Hardware store propane canister is comfortable to hold and has a large capacity, but is inherently unstable. Don't I know it, which is why we have a patent pending on a clamp that not only holds
+
+[12:24] the propane canister when you're using the sears all, but also holds it when you're using a regular torch, which I think is inherently dangerous in any
+
+[12:33] effect in any way. Anyway, okay. Hardware store propane canister is comfortable with large capacity, but inherently unstable, with a small base and a high center of gravity. The heat of the usual burns a matic nozzle is dangerous, but I suspect that the ignition level temperature dissipates pretty quickly.
+
+[12:48] Adding this salamander, the sears all to the top makes a total package tippier and perhaps retains a dangerous temperature level. That is a serious risk in a busy commercial kitchen and a nightmare for consumer use. Well, let's finish the whole thing and then I'll go into it. This is like one of the main things that we're addressing. So, I mean, it's good that someone asked and I can talk about here. Okay. So as to the last point on the danger, I'm of 2 minds when it comes to Dave's
+
+[13:09] tinkering, the HeathKit customer and me, by the way, for those of you that, you know, I don't know, if we have young listeners out there, HeathKit was a company back in the day that became well known after World War 2 for supplying parts, you could build things like, or kits, you could buy things like
+
+[13:24] oscilloscopes. when I was a kid, they sold a robot, they have like, you know, anyway, so like amateur electronics, like what, you know, what all the Arduino kids are doing now, like used to be a
+
+[13:32] Heath kit, but you know, anyway, whatever. Okay, uh, the Heathkick customer me is amused by what Dave, uh, by Dave's
+
+[13:38] hacking of, say, an electric pressure cooker, uh, what could go wrong, uh, in joking friends. But the lawyer in me is more than a little apprehensive, especially when you post instructions on the back to that's back on the pressure cooker. Although, to be fair to me, I said, do not do it. Remember that, Stas? Yeah, that was the 1st sentence you wrote in that story. I was like, do not do this. like, you know, you know, do not do this. By the way, that pressure cooker still runs well. I have not had a problem with it. So, again, don't modify your pressure cooker to get to the actual 15 PSI that God wants it to be
+
+[14:10] at. Uh, even though I highly recommend only cooking with 15 PSI pressure cookers and it's theoretically possible to take the Cuisinart electric pressure cooker and make it do 15
+
+[14:19] PSI. I have to urge you to not actually modify it according to the instructions I post on the blog, right, Stas? Right. Right. Hey, Dave. Yes. I have 2 things. So Bougie Bantan is in jail until 2000 or yeah, 2019 and also you have a caller. Oh, all right. Well, let me just finish this question and then I'll take the caller and then I'll answer the question. Okay, great. Poor Buju. What was it? it cocaine? Yeah, it was cocaine. In Florida? believe so. All right. Uh, okay. Okay. The lawyer of me is more than a little apprehensive, especially when he posts instructions. This series will probably be considered a consumer product and a manufacturing seller assumes some serious liability, or at least a likelihood of consumer injury lawsuits win or lose. Good luck, and I expect to invest, but just in time, as Bams, Nomiku immersion circulator seems to have overcome some design
+
+[15:10] and manufacturing issues and is on the verge of production now, delayed from last December. As I write verge, listen carefully, and you will hear the derisive laughter I get from my wife and friends. Wow, is that a slapdown on WeePop? That is a slapdown. On the we pop? Hey, you know, I'm a big fan of the we pop. We pops chilling in, what is he, in Thailand now? Anyway, so I'll get back. answer that question on safety and the seers all after this caller collar, you're on the air. Yeah, Dave, uh, 2 or 300 unrelated questions here. Cool. First one on pickling. The reference, everything I read about it. I got to change room too. not going to be able to hear me over the kid. Everything I read on pickling says that if you hit 4.9 on the PH, that that's sort of an intrinsically safe pickle. Okay, you mean regardless of salt content or anything? Well, that's, or at least, you can, if you get the 4.9, you can go with a reasonable salt content. Right, okay. I mean, clearly, if you put enough salt in it, anything. Oh yeah. Um, But, uh, does anybody make a test strip for that? Oh, for that explicit number? Yes. Jeez, you know, that's a, that's a good question. You'd think that they would. Uh, I mean, but the thing is with the test strips. PH meters are really not that, uh, they're not that expensive anymore. I think you can get one now. Like, I think, you know, you know, are you familiar with X-Tech? Uh, well, I mean, I'm very familiar with Fluke X-Tec is sort of the lower line company. I mean, so like, is there a, You're telling me that, um,
+
+[16:47] Flukes PH meter or somebody's like that is no longer the price of a decent used car? No, well, no, fluke is. I mean, like, that's the thing. So you're going to pay for, you're going to pay for quality. You know what I mean? So if you're going to use it, if you were going to use something, like, now, I know more about multimeters than I know about, uh, uh, pH, uh, test, you know, pH testers, right? But if I'm if I'm an engineer and I'm going to go out in the job site and I know that thing's going to get dropped and my buddy who doesn't know how to do anything from a hot rock is going to take it and
+
+[17:16] it's going to stick the probes on something weird, I'm going to go with the fluke, right? Now, if I'm just at home, floosies don't know what we're talking about. flke is a well-known and trusted brand of test equipment. Uh, uh, you know, and they have a characteristic look and you know a fluke when you look at it across the room, right? Okay, so we're on the same page. Now, I used to be the kind of guy that would only
+
+[17:39] ever only ever buy quality equipment because I knew that if I didn't buy quality
+
+[17:45] equipment. Uh, it was going to come back to bite me somehow. At some point, I would assume that I own something that worked and I would need it right then and it wouldn't work and I'd be let down and it would be worse than having nothing at all.
+
+[17:56] That's just my general experience. However, as I age, uh, I realize that sometimes it's okay. If you have one application, you know it'll work for it and you know you can be ginger with it. You're not going to take it out on a job site and it gets relatively good reviews, then you can go ahead and get the cheaper one.
+
+[18:12] And so with something like a pH meter, I think you could probably get away with something from XTech at like less than less than half of what you would pay for, you
+
+[18:21] know, the brand you trust. I mean, I don't know whether you can believe. I don't know whether you can go that same route or not or like whether it's not in you to buy a piece of equipment that you don't trust. At any rate, X-Tech is generally adequate for the once a month I'm going to do this. Yeah, right. And I think, you know, I've owned a couple of their products and I'm trying to remember if I ever had a problem with one or whether I've ever heard that they were unresponsive if the stuff break.
+
+[18:48] The problem with pH meters in general, if you've never had one is that you need to keep
+
+[18:52] the, what goes wrong with them is that the, especially the inexpensive ones you use. I don't have the glass tip ones, which is, you know, that kind of, like a lot of people have. I have the ones with the little, like the metal thing, and it's, and shield at the bottom. It actually does a couple different things. It also do TDS. and, you know, a couple other measurements on it. You have to keep the cap wet at all times. If the if the probe dries out, the probe shot. And then you have to buy another replacement tip for it. So that's the one caveat. You need to buy the probe and you need to buy the buffer solutions. And if you calibrate it right. Uh, you know, it's it's a good investment and you just got to make sure that you, there's a little sponge inside the cap and you got to make sure that sponge stays wet so that the probe doesn't dry out and
+
+[19:32] get and get ruined. And, you know, I don't know of any reasonably priced one where that's not the case, but I've had one for several
+
+[19:38] years and it's still working for me. So, you know, take, again, I wouldn't do it if I was doing it professionally, but it served me okay. All right. And then the the specific thing, let me do this question. I'm, I make this Vietnamese hot sauce, basically, it's 13rd fish sauce, 13rd lime juice, 13rd sugar, and then I just, uh, mandolin, some form of hot pepper in
+
+[20:03] there until there's no more room left. And if you leave it in the fridge for a week or two, it seems to pickle beautifully. Other than buying a pH meter. Is there any way to, like, be relatively sure that's not going to kill somebody? Um, yeah, so it's like one, 13rd lime, you said, and
+
+[20:21] one third? 13rd lime, 13rd sugar, 13rd fish sauce. The fish sauce is 1500 milligrams of sodium per tablespoon. Yeah, well, you know that, you know the fish sauce isn't going to go anywhere. Uh, lime juice is not going to support too much growth. Sugar is gonna be reducing the water activity. So the real question is, is, what's the weight ratio of the product to the um, to the pickle? Now, you know, uh, I don't know whether the salt level there is sufficient to inhibit anything but
+
+[20:55] lactic. Does it get a lactic taste after a while? Are you getting some actual fermentation? Yes, and like you can you can see the peppers. You know, the peppers go from bright green. It's like they absorb the fish sauce and just get a very subtle, different flavor to them. Right, but then it does, it does actually ferment out and you get lactic acid bacteria in there. I think so. And you're probably fine. I mean, like, you're just jumpstart. You know, by lowering the pH initially, you're then selecting for more for lactic acid bacteria to grow rather than other nasty stuff.
+
+[21:25] So, you know, I think you're, I mean, look again, like, I would get the pH meter and test it, but I wouldn't feel too nervous about it.
+
+[21:32] I'm not going to come out and say that's a safe thing because I haven't run the numbers or
+
+[21:36] looked at the system or gone and checked any data on the on the web. But, uh, I mean, I feel I would feel comfortable serving to my family is put that way. Okay, so fair enough. Uh, separate, completely separate question. You were talking the other day about pizza steel? Oh yeah, yeah. No, I've never used one. Now, Chris Young was talking to me about it and they have someone in Massachusetts making it. I'm really interested in buying one, but if I do, I'd like to use it for a few things besides
+
+[22:05] pizza. Sure. Is it thick enough not to warp if it's heated unevenly or is it, um,
+
+[22:12] you want to use it on the range? But like, I can get my grill up to ridiculous temperatures. Right. If I turn the rotisserie burner on too. So the matisserie burners radiating down from above at the same time, the grill is going full up from below and, I mean, it gets hot in there, like 700 and something degrees hot. Right, right. If I can, um, but I'm, I'm worried if I do, I'm afraid to do it to a ceramic pizza stone that way because I know the dang thing will crack.
+
+[22:41] Oh, you've tried it? No, but I mean, the ceramic does typically not like to be heated unevenly. Yeah, no, I mean, that's true. It's a $50 experiment I've refrained from doing. Right, right. So, I mean, clearly the steel is not going to crack. Do you, how do you have me feel for how likely it would be to take a permanent warp? Uh, okay, uh, I haven't thought about it. However, I'll say this. Uh, you're going to buy it from the guy in Massachusetts is making it with the modernist cuisine label on it. Yes, that is my intention costs about 75 bucks. Okay. So, I don't remember exactly how thick it is, but remember, the whole, the whole McGill on that sucker is that it's thick enough to store up enough thermal energy to put a wallop into your
+
+[23:24] crust, right? So you're going to have some inherent stiffness from just the fact that it's a thicker material, but the
+
+[23:32] other, the other good news is, is you're not heating it up to like a cherry red. You're not like putting like an oxyacetylene flame on it and melting it out. It's probably going to take quite a bit of energy to warp that out as opposed to like, you know, a black steel pan, which is incredibly easy to warp on a range, right? Yeah, been there, done that? Yeah, and you're probably going to have a more widespread out heat pattern than you
+
+[23:53] would on a range if you're doing it on a grill. But the good news is this. I don't know that guy in Massachusetts and never met him, never spoken to him. However, I have spoken to Chris Young about him when they were starting that project because he was here on the radio show like a year or so ago talking about it. And the fellow that's doing it is an engineer. And, uh, my, uh, you know, uh, and I'm biased because I got a family full of engineers, but, um, my, my feeling
+
+[24:21] is uh, that, uh, it's probably something that he's tested because, uh, you know, engineers are like that.
+
+[24:27] You know what I mean? So it's worth calling them and asking them questions. I would call I would call him personally and ask a question. My impression is he's not like some giant conglomerate, he's a human being. But, I mean, he has a real company that does other stuff, like a bigger company. I believe he's a metal fabricator or something like that or has some sort of large shop, but the guy who spearheaded that at that company might be the owner or not is an actual human being. I will attempt to look him up, and then third, again, completely. emulated question. I use my sous vide setup. More for um, con fees than anything else. And it works fantastic and I love it. But basic food safety question. If it's been in 180 degree, you know, a reasonable size bag, but in 180
+
+[25:10] degrees, Fahrenheit for, you know, eight, 10 hours. Is it essentially, I mean, canned? I mean, do I need to worry about the big ice water bath and. Yeah, no, it is not. uh, it is not canned and yes and no. Here the deal. So, uh, the original old school confit recipes, right? have, uh, a fairly extensive, uh, salting regimen prior to the comfit process. They also have, uh, you know, a classic uh, bunch of uh, herbs that gets packed into it. Those herbs, time and whatnot, are, you know, our bacteria static, uh, have some bacteria static effect. And, um, salt is there to provide, um, to provide, you know, some bacterial protection. So now, I don't know of any cases of someone getting, what you're worried about is spore forming bacteria here. You're going to kill all the vegetative stuff, but you're not going to wipe out the spores. So the question is, is the water, and here's the other problem. When you're doing a traditional comfit, you have 1st assault that gets rid of some moisture and increases the salt level, that's inhibiting bacteria.
+
+[26:23] You have the putting of the of the herbs on. That's somewhat inhibiting bacteria, though it's hard to quantify. You then have the traditional confit in an open roaster, let's say, or on a pot in a stove. NAS sucker is also getting rid of moisture because moisture is evaporating off and can get out. When you're doing it in the bag, most modern coffee recipes don't have as much salt, so I can't guarantee there's bacteria static. You're not necessarily using the same herb profile, so can't guarantee bacteria static there. And also, you're not evaporating the moisture out of the bag. The moisture stays in the bag, which is why you get a little gelet in the bottom of a bad confit item. Now, I like all that in terms of taste, but I wouldn't trust it for, uh, I wouldn't trust it for room temperature and for not having spores in
+
+[27:10] it. Okay? So I would, you know, if you want to do it that way, you know, you got to get a retort bag,
+
+[27:16] you can buy retort bags, and then just, you know, you could pressure, you could pressure the retort bag, and then those suckers are sterile, they'd be shelf stable at that point.
+
+[27:23] Okay, so all right, so I need to be caught more cautious on this than on the pickle question. I would yeah. Okay, fair enough. That was my question. Thank you very much. Thank you. have a good one You too. All right, Jack, let's go to our 1st commercial break. I'll come back with some safety issues on this here's all cooking your show.
+
+[28:27] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics
+
+[28:52] approach your pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, Visit www.surryfarms.com. Did you know heritageradionetwork.org is a member-supported nonprofit organization. If you like what you're listening to, go to our website and click that donate button. Become a member and get special discounts, invites, VIP
+
+[29:18] treatment, t-shirts and more. Support us in our mission to bring you the freshest food content in the nation. Nice. Glad to see Sam Edwards is supporting the show. You know, I like the SWS Edwards Ham. Joe, you like that stuff? I do enjoy the Soriano Ham. And Dave, you have another caller. I do? Yep. Seriano, SLS Edwards. Great product. I don't like the name. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Aaron Warren calling from Edmonton, Alberta. I just had a question for you about, uh, solar streams. About what? About Soda Stream? Oh, cool, all right. Okay, so I, I purchased uh, just the cheap, I'll use soda stream online and uh, I did some research previous to it, and noticed that there's a company
+
+[30:06] that, uh, basically is able to provide you with a clip, so that you can put uh, a CO2 cartridge onto the soda stream without purchasing
+
+[30:18] it, or exchanging it directly through them. But, Upon further reading, I noticed that the CO2 actually
+
+[30:27] isn't food grade, it's uh, paintball CO2 or designed for paintball guns. Is that a concern? Well, that's an interesting question. So, you know, if you go to the big restaurant shows. There are companies that only supply CO2 for the beverage industry, right? Um, and also if you buy your gases from people like ISI, let's
+
+[30:53] say, in the small cartridges. You know, they make a lot about the purity of the gases that go in it. I have always, and everyone I know purchases CO2, not from paintball suppliers, but from welding
+
+[31:07] suppliers. Uh, including it, you know, restaurants and, you know, most of those, unless you're getting your gas directly from Coca-Cola or Pepsi or whoever you deal with, you know, universal beverage or
+
+[31:18] Coke, whoever you deal with. Um, you know, pretty much we're all using the welding gas and that's it. I've never noticed any taste problems or anything like that. I mean, the stuff is, you know, it's it's high purity. I don't know. I can't, I can't say as I've studied it too much except for I don't ever worry about it. And I've actually filled, I have a 40 I have a £40 or £50 siphon tank and I fill up smaller
+
+[31:46] things, including 20 ounce paintball tanks with it. fill it myself, you know, although I don't recommend filling your own tanks unless you do like a lot of reading on the safety because if you fill your own tank and you do it wrong, you cause a
+
+[31:57] serious, it's a serious hazard. An incorrectly filled tank is a serious, serious hazard. So I don't, you know, I don't recommend doing it unless you've done a lot of research on it, but
+
+[32:07] yeah, so I wouldn't worry about it. I think, you know, the soda stream people have done a great service to the world in that they've brought home carbonated beverages to a large, large number of people, but they are ripping you off for
+
+[32:18] CO2. There is another... And that's kind of why I wanted to go with this little mod clip that they have, is this so I could basically cheap out a bit more on that without spending the 2 or 300
+
+[32:30] bucks it would cost me to get the, you know, £20 tank and regulate it. Well, that's the thing, £20 tank, a £20 tank, and a regulator is not that expensive. Everyone buys it and this is no offense to any homebrew people that are listening, but those guys are small shops that need to
+
+[32:46] make, they make their profit up, but they don't sell that many. right? So the prices on like a on a tank are fairly high in a regulator. You know, if you can get a £5 tank, which is a lot easier to sling, if you're
+
+[33:01] going, if you're doing it in your house in a 20. And I want to say that a £5 tank is way under
+
+[33:07] 100 bucks. And a regulator is like 30. If you get it from Mark Powers in the Guntersville, Alabama, I don't know about Canada. I don't know what the rules are up there. You know, I hesitate buying a used
+
+[33:19] tank just because you got to make sure when you buy a used, I mean, you can, I have, but you got to make sure when you buy a used tank that it's still certified. Otherwise, you're going to have to get certified. Um, you know what I mean? But once you get the investment in and once you have that tank, then CO2 is so cheap, it's ridiculous.
+
+[33:36] Your price per liter drops to, you know, like a penny. It's ridiculous. you know, like a £20 CO2 tank does like on the order of 200 gallons of seltzer water.
+
+[33:47] We think about that. And let's say it's 20 bucks, which I don't even think it's 20 bucks. So that's 20 bucks for 200 gallons. You can really get more. That's, uh, what is that? That's $10 That's a dollar for 10 gallons. Is that right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a dollar for 10 gallons. So that's ¢10 a gallon, that's like 2.5 a liter. Think about that. Yeah, yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. Plus you're not going to run out very often. So no, no, never. you know, once every couple of years, probably. I mean, I mean, look, once you have it in your house, I go through a lot of stuff. I go through tanks and tanks and tanks, especially, you know, when you 1st set up your rig, you probably have a leaky system and you'll lose your tank a lot faster than you should, but yeah, tank lasts a good long time, even with a family of 4 that drinks almost
+
+[34:36] exclusively seltzer. It lasts a good long time. So I would definitely go that route. It's going to save you money in the long run for sure. And then later on, if you decide to move on to a different system, you already have the tank. You can do anything you want. If you want to get a carbonator cap system and take a T branch off your regulator and then do cocktails that way, which is kind of more flexible than doing it in soda stream style.
+
+[34:59] You can. That's only another 15, $16 investment to your system. You can upgrade it right away and you're not paying for a preposterous amount for the CO2 every time you do it.
+
+[35:09] Everyone tries to make their money on the gas. And for me, that's just not a proposition I enjoy. Okay. You know what I mean? All right, great. Thanks for all the info, day. App appreciate it. Love the show. Oh thanks a lot. No problem. Good luck with it. Okay. So back to the safety on Ingburst question on the seers all. So the, I mean, 1st of all, obviously, we have lawyers looking at it. We have insurance companies, we're talking to about getting insurance, and like I'm sure a good chunk of the cost of the item to the consumer is going to be our insurance for
+
+[35:41] it. But we're doing a lot of work to make sure that the product itself is safe.
+
+[35:48] So, you know, the initial design of it was kind of operator ease of use and comfort, right? So the cone is the cone was there originally to stop heat from coming back on your knuckles, to make sure that everything worked fine there. The second, then after we got initial usability down, we focused, you know, a lot of our attention is being focused right now on safety issues.
+
+[36:10] So, you know, the very 1st thing we said is this thing is too tippy. We made a clamp, clamp that fits on it. And the clamp actually is kind of cool because the clamp will fit on butane tank, the tall propane tank, and the camping propane tank.
+
+[36:25] It'll also fit on a wine bottle if you want to take it to a picnic. yeah, right? Ooh. So your wine bottles doesn't fall over. That's the only thing Nastasia cares about. Is that it fits on the wine bottle? Right, Stas? That's right Yeah, yeah. And what's the name of this thing, Dave? It's the jed clamp. Because why? We're stupid. Yeah, we're stupid. But what, but no one, some people might not get it. Go get the go get the jet clamp. J clamp it. J clamp it. Get it, get it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a good one, right? And everyone's like, you're stupid. That's a dumb name. you're like, guess what? I don't care. I get to name it. You don't. It's the Jed clamp. Anyway, so Jed Clamp will fit on a propane tank, butane tank, wine bottle, and you name it. In fact, eventually, we want to sell that sucker just for use with regular torches because I've always thought torches were unsafe standing up there on its own. So that's something we addressed. But Dave Chang, especially, was like, people aren't always going to put the, um,
+
+[37:18] iron's going to put the clamp on. So we're trying to engineer it such that it's safe even without that. First of all, the one that has been on the on our web there. If we've modified it since then, there's a safety cage around it. And the safety cage is made of wire so that it doesn't retain heat very much. And you can, you can literally knock it over on the table and it won't catch anything on fire. And it's still hot. not gonna lie, but you can you can hit it after it's been on for a long time and not sustain horrible burns as if
+
+[37:45] it like you would if the naked cone fell on you. Uh, and we're still right now before we, and one of the reasons we haven't kickstarted, yes, we're still working on a bunch of different safety tweaks to make it as safe as we possibly
+
+[37:58] can. Uh, you know, and in addition, of course, it's going to come with a list of instructions a mile long on what to do and
+
+[38:04] whatnot to do, but rest assured that uh, the safety of the product is, um, you know, once we came up with
+
+[38:11] the functionality that we liked, the safety of the product is our primary concern.
+
+[38:15] Wouldn't you say that's true, Stas? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, that was good. That's enough on that, right, Stas? Bueno? Bueno? Okay, bueno. Uh, Brandon Hopkins writes in from Phoenix, Arizona. I haven't been to Phoenix in a long time. Styles, you ever been to Phoenix? Yes, they have. I don't like it. What? What do you have against Phoenix? What? You don't like it. What is it? no hipsters there, Stas. are weird. What? Who the hell do you like? You don't like hipsters? I have a new contest. You get a free t-shirt. If you write in 5 things Nastasia likes. No one will ever win. No one will ever win that. Now, like, you'd have that contest done before the end of the show if you're like, tweet in 5 things she hates. Yeah, it'd be over. That's not the point. Yeah, yeah. 5 things she likes So what do you have against Phoenix besides the awesome Suwaro cactuses and the awesome smell of the desert? Uh, my grandmother lived there. I do like Sedona. Sedona is beautiful. you been there? Is it like Sedona? You don't wait. Whoa, hold up. You don't like hipsters, but you like weird hippie freaks? No offense to donut? No, I like the landscape. I don't like the weird hippie freak part. No offense, weird hippie freaks. We love you. But yeah, no, Sedona is nice. My father-in-law used to fly into Sedona's airport, and that's a bumpy ride in a Cesno 172. Let me tell you. Anyway, I like Phoenix and I think it's good stuff. I haven't been out there in a long, long, long time, probably 13 years. Anyway, I hope they got the pollution problem fixed. You know, when I used to go out there in the in the 90s. They were like the last place on earth, you can still use leaded gas. I hope they've changed that. I have no idea. Anyway, Brandon says, I discovered your podcast a few weeks ago and I've been catching up on episodes since then. have a few questions. I bought a poly-science creative series circulator last week and I've been using Ziploc bags per Euro low temperature primer. Are there any applications where a vacuum sealer is a must have. For example, what I need to vacuum seal short ribs before I cook them for 72 hours. No, you don't. Well, we'll get into it. With the VACMaster VP 112 chamber sealer work well enough to also do a quick pickling or would I need a more expensive chamber sealer for that? Uh, so let's handle this before we uh, before I get on the 2nd question. So here's the deal. You can do, and I say this in the, in the, you know, when we used to teach it,
+
+[40:41] um, you know, you can do 90% of what you want to
+
+[40:45] do, uh, without a vacuum by using ziplocs. However, right? If you seal something in a vacuum bag. So that's just from a cooking standpoint. vacuum shines in food preservation, right? So there's 2 reasons to use, uh, Well, there's many, but you know, 2 of the 2 of the main reasons to use a vacuum machine are, one, you can bag things so you can do low temperature cooking. And for me, personally, that's the most important thing. Two, by removing the oxygen from the bag, you
+
+[41:17] are, and also by removing any sort of gas content, if you're going to freeze, let's say,
+
+[41:21] something, if you're going to freeze it. By removing air and or oxygen, all that stuff, you are preserving the product in a better condition for a longer time, also doing things like preventing freezer burn, if you're going to freeze, et cetera, et cetera, preventing crystallization,
+
+[41:36] because there's no surface from which the water can migrate out and form crystals on the surface. Okay? So, for preservation, you need vacuum. And the better the vacuum, the happier you're going to be. I haven't, the VAC Master VP 112, which is what you're talking about, is, I've never used it, but I've looked at it on the web a bunch of times. It is a lot cheaper than the pumps, the vacuum sealers that I'm used to. And what it amounts, it's a chamber machine, which means that you're not sucking the air out of the bag. You're sucking the air out of a chamber and then sealing the bag. That by far and away is the better system to use than one where you're sucking air out of the bag. I've had nothing but bad luck with the ones where you suck the air out of the bag, with the exception of like 36 inch striped bass, which I can't figure out how to seal any other way. Uh, so anyway, so yes, so the chamber is a good good way to go, but the VACMaster looks like just kind of, like a food saver on steroids. And by that, I mean, it doesn't have a commercial quality vacuum pump in it.
+
+[42:39] All of the kind of, all of the big kid vacuum machines, the chamber machines, have in them a bush
+
+[42:47] pump made by the bush corporation. And those things are monsters. They're, they're always, always work. They're awesome, right? They suck a very fast vacuum, and there's go down to a very low number of millibars. So they're just a good piece of equipment all the way around. And all of the major ones that you find, you know, mini pack, multivac, and cotch, they all use that brand because everyone knows they're the best ones out there for normal use,
+
+[43:16] right? Now, this guy has a piston pump in it, which it has its limitations. It's never going to pump as hard a vacuum as those other things. It's never going to pump as quickly as those other things. Now, the question is, is it enough? I don't know. You know, when I looked on the web, I looked this morning, and I looked at a bunch of reviews online of people that have it. You know, they buy it at Cabela's, which is, you know, the, you know, the sporting goods store because, you know, hunters buy it and things like this. And some of the people that have it like it. However, I never saw this. I never saw, hey, you know what? I'm used to working in a kitchen or in a processing plant with, you know, a real vacuum machine, like a mini pack. And I had this one and it's almost as good. Didn't see that once. Didn't see that once. I did not see one consumer, uh, or one customer review of that machine that, that, um, that said that it compared to what I would consider to be, you know, the commercial machines that
+
+[44:17] I, that I'm used to. And I will also say I spoke to a mini pack rep yesterday, and he said that in one of the places, they sell a lot of vacuum things in Alaska because they have a lot of fish and they're
+
+[44:27] vacuuming the fish down, you know, for freezing and shipping. And he says that literally in their in their showroom, they have that unit, the
+
+[44:36] VACMaster sitting next to their unit, so you can make a decision for yourself, which way to go. Now, at home, maybe it's enough. I don't really know how high of a vacuum level it can get. If the vacuum pump is no better than a food saver. It's not going to do as good a job, a quick pickles, anywhere near as good a job as a real vacuum machine can do, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
+
+[44:56] What do you think, Stas? Yeah, man, I don't want to be snobby about it. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I'm being a jerk because it is literally a 3rd of the price of the next
+
+[45:06] machine up. one third. You know what I mean? So I don't know whether you can get away with it or not. No one's ever sent us one so I so I can't make an informed judgment. If anyone out there in Tweeterland has used both like a regular commercial machine, like a mini
+
+[45:25] pack of multivac or a kotch or something similar and one of those VAC masters. Please just, you know, tweet in and tell us what you think, whether or not it was, uh, whether or not
+
+[45:33] I would do anything. Okay. 2nd question. Is there a way to make powdered Dr. Pepper? That's SCO, it's all used, does. Yeah, wouldn't you put it in the liquid nitrogen? No that would just freeze it. That would just freeze it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, 2nd question, is there a way to make powder, Dr. Pepper? I thought it would make a good addition to spice rubs. If it is possible, what would be the shelf life? Well, the shelf life would probably mean non-finite. You know what I mean? If you could do it. Here's the problem. Dehydrating things with sugar in them can be quite difficult because the more you dehydrate
+
+[46:07] something, kind of the more the sugar doesn't want to lose that last little bit of water until you crystallize it out, but it's more difficult to crystallize because they're using high fructose corn syrup, eccentric,
+
+[46:16] etc. Here's what you do. First of all, forget using regular Dr. Pepper. right? Forget it. Just go to, you can go, you can buy. I saw it on the Sam's Club website this morning. You can buy Dr. Pepper syrup. I couldn't locate the exact bricks, but since Dr. Pepper is probably somewhere around 11 bricks. And since it's a 5 to one syrup to soda ratio, that means that you multiply by 6 to
+
+[46:41] get you multiply by 6 to get the bricks. So it's probably somewhere in the area of 60 to 66 bricks, meaning 66% sugar in the syrup that you get. So for every kilo of that, you only need to remove
+
+[46:54] 3 you only need to remove 300 mils, 333 mils of water. Now, what I would do is you could try boiling some water out, but it's
+
+[47:05] going to get sludgy, it's going to heat up fast. Once it heats up, it's going to start changing the flavor. You could try spreading it thin and putting it a dehydrator and then trying to get it down to something more
+
+[47:15] brittle and then pulverizing it with the rest of your salt rub so that your salt or your spice rub, absorb some of the extra moisture and it's going to turn grainy and sandy. You could do that. But, you know, short of that, you're going to need like something commercial, like a spray dryer or what I would more preferably do is freeze dry because freeze
+
+[47:34] dry, you could get it down to a powder. It would just be like sugar and it wouldn't have any heat damage, but I don't know anyone that makes it freeze
+
+[47:40] dried. And actually, Styles, did you ever find that person who could do contract freeze drying? Yeah, you have a guy. Yeah. I tweeted out. tweeted out. Nastasia on, what's your tweeter there? Hammer BDX? Hammer BDX? Yeah, Nastasia will Twitter out the person who can do contract freeze drying? Because maybe they can freeze dry, use some Dr. Pepper syrup, and then you have Dr. Pepper powder. Uh, they made a Dr. Pepper gum when I say, uh, I forget who made it, but I saw that on the web too. They made it. Here's an interesting thing about Dr. Pepper. I looked it up. Of course, I looked it up. So the flavorings. Daniel Stas does not contain prune juice. What? Dr. Pepper? You know, for years, I always thought it was prune. In fact, there's no prune in it or prune flavor. And like everyone... You just mentioned one thing that I like, so that's a free giveaway for someone today. So is that still trying to think? Oh yeah, all right. Not fair, fair. So, but still, like naming forth, naming 4 things. We're going to be waiting for God with this thing. So, uh, so Dr. Pepper doesn't actually contain prunes, uh, but that kind of spoils it for me because
+
+[48:42] like I love the whole prune thing. In fact, my favorite, you know how like every soda has like a ripoff brand at the supermarket? You know, like whatever. And the one, my favorite Dr. Pepper ripoff is a Dr. Thunder, presumably because of the effect of the prune on your
+
+[48:56] GI tract. After Thunder. anyway. Uh, so point is, uh, it doesn't contain prune. Here, according to, there's a, there's a fact, an FAQ, uh, and
+
+[49:09] here, look it up under free New York.net, DP fact, standing for Dr. Pepperfec. And here's what they list. They go through a bunch of things. This seems kind of relatively true. Vanilla, almond, right? And this is why it's almoretto, amoretto, and rum is the flaming Dr. Pepper shot. So because it's vanilla, almond, denatured rum, which they probably means like some sort of rum
+
+[49:32] de alcoholized rum, oil of orange, and phosphoric
+
+[49:37] acid and lactic acid. And also some citric. So really interesting acid blend in there. And so, uh, those flavors explain why the flaming Dr. Pepper, which is Amaretto and uh, Amaretto and
+
+[49:50] rum, lit on fire, why that tastes like a Dr. Pepper's, because you've hit, if you put a little orange in it, you've hit pretty much all
+
+[49:57] the the high notes in, uh, especially if you use an age rum, which is going to have the vanilla notes from the wood.
+
+[50:03] You've hit almost all the high notes in a Dr. Pepper. That's cool, right, Stas? Yeah, yeah. Really cool. Are you a fan of the, are you a fan of the flaming Dr. Pepper drink? Not really. You prefer the actual Dr. Pepper? I do. You know it, every lunch, every Tuesday. Yes, that's true. So, I'm not going to even eat lunch because, like, what am I going to? By the way, so the reason why Nastasia and I do this show is not for you fine listeners out there, although I guess it is. It's for the pizza and the salad. We get a pizza and a salad. That's the that's the that's the pay. Oh, really? That's it? That's the big bucks we make. And getting to talk to Jack and Joe every week. Which is like getting 2 pizzas in the salad, really. And seeing Indie Jesus sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. Although he hates us because, you know, you talk smack about him. Jack and I equal one pizza. I thought that was good. You want it? That's fine. That's about it. accurate. Yeah, yeah. So, anyway, so like, I'm not that guy that's going to sit here and just eat my pizza by myself in silence. I'm just kind of I'm not going to have lunch this week. unless you guys want to eat with me. Do guys want to eat with me? Maybe Joe can have a pizza with you and yeah. All right, nice. All right, Stas. St, you've been replaced. All right. So, Chris Anderson from Modernist Pantry Writes In. Hey, Chris. Modernist Pantry. Hope all is well. We have just been getting a number of calls lately from your listeners looking for novo shape. I just wanted to let you know we are now stocking it based on your recommendation. Chris Anderson from Modernist Pantry. Nova Shape, good call. Uh, Styles. lets order some of that stuff for ourselves because I don't think I have any left. Here's the here's the deal with Novo shape. Novo shape. It's the exact opposite of the enzyme that we use almost all the time, which is Pectinex Ultra SPL. Novo shape, cross links in the presence of calcium. Don't forget to add your calcium, people. You need to add calcium, and it cross links pectins in the presence of it and makes fruit and other vegetables a lot firmer. So, like the ossified vegetables or whatever that they, you know, do
+
+[52:02] it mugarites or that they do it and all that. You can do that without using very heavily flavor mediated calciums by using novo shape in conjunction with
+
+[52:13] like a milder calcium. Also, if you want to make yourself some cocktail cherries from fresh cherries when cherry season runs around. Or when any of your fresh fruits are coming in and you want to can them and have a real nice firm fruit, you can use
+
+[52:26] novo shape and calcium and really firm the fruit up so that it keeps for a long time if you're going to brandy or something like that. So as the spring and summer rolls around and the fruit comes in, consider getting some novo shape to really just increase the quality of your brandied
+
+[52:42] and candied fruits. How's that for a pitch? Yeah. Okay. Finally, Eric writes in on the red velvet cake. Hey, cookie, and I know we've done we've done a little bit of red velvet cake in the past, but here we go. Hey, cooking issues crew. I've been looking into red velvet cakes recently, and I'd love to find a recipe without die or beats.
+
+[53:03] My research showed that the anthocyanins, that anthocyanins would turn the batter
+
+[53:08] red, the anthocyanins, you turn the batter red with buttermilk and vinegar. The problem is most cocoa in these recipes is Dutch processed, and it's just too basic. I'm looking not looking for an extreme blood red, but something more than the brown chocolate cake that normally comes without
+
+[53:25] dye. Any help would be appreciated. Okay, here's the problem, Eric. All of the natural colorings that I know that are red come from one of 2 like styles. There's beetle lanes, which are from beats and other, you know, related
+
+[53:42] plants and anthocyanins, which you get in, uh, things like cabbages or in, in a bunch of flowers and teas, and all of those pigments. Our pH sensitive to one degree or another. Now that said, you can, uh, you know, you can, uh,
+
+[54:02] the cabbage is fairly neutral. If you want to go anthocyanin and beats, I don't know how neutral it is. The problem with beats is it's beats are extremely concentrated source of color, which is why they're
+
+[54:12] good. But a good sort. I know you said you didn't want to do beats. But if you want to look at a really red cake that's beat-based, Go to the big bake theory, blogs, you know, blog, and they, uh, the person there, I don't know who it
+
+[54:26] is, actually. But they did a whole series of tests and the red velvet cake. Their beat-based red velvet cake is freaking red.
+
+[54:36] And for them, you know, they they point out all the things that are important. When you're using a natural, um, when you're using a natural dye,
+
+[54:42] anthasine, and orbetylin-based. Like the things that are important are the pH, and you're going to want your pH to be lower, which means that you're going to have to switch away from the Dutch Dutch
+
+[54:52] cocoa, unless you really, really insist on having the flavor of the Dutch processed cocoa, in which case you're going to have some difficulty because it's difficult to get a bright
+
+[55:00] red if you're going to have something. I mean, the reason that Dutch processed cocoa is the color it is and is the flavor it is, is because of the alkaline processing. And I think, like, in other words, I don't think you can just add extra acidity to neutralize the Dutch cocoa and have it
+
+[55:15] work. But maybe you can. I have to run some tests. Uh, heat. So they found on that website that, uh, and I've noticed this as well, that the longer something is heated and the further away it is from raw, the less red it is and the more you have to use to get
+
+[55:27] it, uh, to that color. So on that website, they literally blend in a food processor, raw beets and water. It's got to be one king hell mess, right? It's gotta be some messy stuff. I'm going to make Nastasia do that if she does it because I... Hey, guys, we got a tweet in for with hashtag Five Things Hammer Likes. Oh, let's hear it. I'm ready to disqualify number four, but I'll read it for you guys. We've got champagne. Oh, yes. Check. Mark Ladner. I don't know why they said that. All right. I'm going to assume check. California? Check. That's kind of broke. I guess so. I have to give, yeah, okay. But you hate everything from your childhood and that includes California. Not true. Go on, Jack. All right, number four, this is where I disqualify hating hipsters. I't know if you can like hating hipsters. I don't know, that's kind of a strong move, though. Yeah it is. Yeah, he's like hating on hipsters. All right. And then number 5 is Zappos, a.k.a. So I'll let you I'll let you give it the y or nay, Nastasia. Yay, yes. All right, we got a winner. Who is it? T-shirts on the way. Cool. From Twitter, we got it's Elliot Pavanaugh. Oh, Elliot. And congratulations on your t-shirt. Does we already have a t-shirt? Is he a member? I don't know. Email us your size or maybe your girlfriend's size or something. Nice. We'll get one out. All right, thanks for writing in, Elliot. Okay, so what I would do, Eric, and I'm going to try and look more into it. I have a bunch of articles that I have backlog, red,
+
+[57:00] backlog, and 2 read on different ways to affect the stability of
+
+[57:04] natural-based red and blue pigments because I've been doing Samantha sign and work for the
+
+[57:09] bar. So I'm going to try to get back to that. As soon as I figure it out, I'll do it. But go to the big bake theories, a website, and look up the recipe they have there. They don't use Dutch process cocoa, and they use cream of tartar and buttermilk and fresh beets. Uh, so anyway, check it out. I know you said no beat, but check it out. You could probably do the same thing with cabbage as long as you really acidify the sucker so that it goes bright, bright red. Now, on the way out, I want to say that, you know, I'm on this, you know,
+
+[57:38] nations restaurant news, anyone know what I'm talking about? Nations restaurant news? I read it. Yeah. Anyway, uh, it's Nations Restaurant news. You know, they send stuff to my inbox every day. So this one caught my caught my eye. KFC, this is what's awesome about the world, right? This is big news. KFC is coming out with boneless chicken. you guys know this? Yeah, they're doing away with the regular stuff, right? Are they doing away with it? I think the boneless will be the new promoted line above everything else. Don't worry, folks. They're not like raising some sort of like, you know, like, you know, osteo challenged chicken. They're actual chickens that the bones have been removed from. It's not like some like weird sack of growing chicken plasm that they have around. They're real chickens. Now, I've been saying, by the way, I've been saying boneless chicken for decades because my wife does not like to eat chicken off the
+
+[58:25] bone. First of all, thank God she doesn't listen to a word I say because she hates when I talk about that in public, but she does not like to eat chicken on the bone.
+
+[58:32] And so for years, I've boned everything, you know, bone the legs, bone, just bone the whole bone and everything. And it is really, frankly, more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable because I'm not going to call anyone out, Nastasia, but she takes 3 bites off the drumstick and then leaves all the meat around the
+
+[58:47] bone and throws the thing away. Weak. Yeah, whereas when you're boneless, you eat the whole thing. That's guilty as charge, right, Stas? That is true. Yeah, yeah, but it's endearing in a way. No, no. anyway. So here's the thing. like, all of a sudden, it's like huge news that they're going to go boneless on
+
+[59:05] the, on the, on the KFC, and then all they have to do to make big news is take the bones out of the freaking chicken. That's all it takes. We're in the wrong in the wrong damn business. I swear to God. But this is what got me, and this is why I'm going to end with this. Here is a subset of everything that is wrong with the mental process of American food thinking,
+
+[59:25] okay? Uh, the, the, one of the, one of the firms that was hired by KFC, as a senior consumer research manager, said this about why they think the boneless Kentucky
+
+[59:37] fried chicken is going to be popular. Are you ready for this? This is quoted in Nation's restaurant news. I think this also has to do with healthfulness because if you see boneless, even if the product is breaded and fried, we tend to think of boneless as less.
+
+[59:55] And so therefore, maybe more helpful. I think healthful. Seriously. I think the idea of boneless in general is one we'll see a lot more of. Can you freaking believe that, people? That is how dumb. That is how dumb people think that we are that by just having the word less attached to the word
+
+[1:00:15] bone that the fried chicken is going to be more helpful? Not that I like thinking of fried chicken in health terms anyway, because you know
+
+[1:00:23] what, you should eat a reasonable amount of anything you find delicious and don't go crazy, including fried chicken, bones
+
+[1:00:29] in or bones out, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:00:43] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and
+
+[0:07] international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:56] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking news coming here. What? Live. The back of Roberta's Pizzeria in where is it, Jack? It's this place called Bushwick. Nastasia hates. Yeah, who won that? That was Elliot Papinau, right? That was Elliot Papineau. Shirt went out in the mail yesterday, man. Nice, nice, buddy. Nice, nice, nice. Well, joined as usual with Nastasia Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey, guys. Beautiful day out. Yeah, which Nastasia hates. It's not that she hates the weather. I hate the way people like the weather. Yeah, yeah. Nah. I think you guys are getting a little bit of an insight here. A little bit of an insight. And special guest in the studio today with us. Ariel Johnson, who is a, uh, now, what's your, or UC Davis, you're in the anology department, but
+
+[1:53] you use studying right now, bitters, correct? Yeah, that's one of the things I'm studying. I do analytical chemistry and flavor chemistry on bitters and other things. Right? And you are a not a professional or semi-professional. I mean, it dovetails with your profession, but you also privately are a flavor chemical collector, true or false. Very true Yeah. And so like how big is your collection at this point? A flavor chemical? Yeah. Like in the lab? Or just that you have around, you have access to. Probably a thousand? Yeah nice. Stas and I visited a place called David Michaels, which is a flavor house down in outside of Philadelphia. And what factory was it right near? It was right near some factory that was making Nabisco. Holding place, Melagorios. True or false, until you get in. Anyway. And they make some amazing vanilla. Like, I thought I knew something about vanilla and I talked to other vanilla guy and then I realized that, you know, I had not yet been born. In other words, like I had less, I had less knowledge about vanilla than an infant has about the world.
+
+[2:47] as they're born. So anyway, so we saw their flavor stuff. It's pretty amazing, amazing stuff. Any personal favorites right now? There we go. Favorite aroma compounds? Yeah, they like unusual ones. Like, don't give me any, don't give me hexanal or any crap like that. Give me some No, hexanalyl. Yeah, okay. Um, I quite like rotundo. That's the impact compound for black pepper. Wait, what's the name of it? Rotundo. Rotundo, like rotund. Yeah, Done. Yeah, it's a 15 carbon tesquaturfine. It's also in Serral wines. Yeah? I love the word... Well, first, everyone knows terpenes a great word, but Sesqui adds Sesqui to anything. Yeah, it's a great, you know, it's like we need to, we need to have like Sesque Centennials more often. right? Totally Sesque Centennials are the bomb. Back when I was a kid, they actually were having Sesque Centennials for things like, well, yeah, Civil War. No, that's right now, actually, Sesque Centennial, right? 150? What's 150 plus? 2011? Yeah, that was right. Cesque Centennial coming up was coming came up on the thing. when I was a kid it must have been some other war. Ah, whatever. And a big thank you out to Comiles, who's not only a supporter of our radio network, is this true or false, Jack? Oh, yeah, he is. Not only an incredibly like interesting guy, I met at the sous vide class, sous vide low temperature class. I will not reveal his history for fear, but also now an incredibly generous,
+
+[4:12] uh, incredibly generous giver of the 5 volume modernist cuisine uh, set. Yeah, I'm going to give him one of these. It was awesome. And now I never, ever again, will be able to make the excuse. I don't own the books, so I can't tell you what they said. Right? I vow. Yeah, I guess you got to read a moment. I vow never to say that again. Very, very actual and real heartfelt thanks. Thank you very much. Leaving, he lives in the Houston area, right? Houston? Anyway, I think so. And by the way, again, he's involved in NASA a little bit. I'm so excited. This summer. We're late semi-relatedness. Anyway, this summer, it stars, you going down with us when we do the mango tasting? We're going to do the mango tasting again this year. Hello, McGee and I, maybe Andy Ricker, the chef from Pockpock, a good friend of ours, and we're going to go last year, Harold, 2 years ago, Harold McGee and I went to the Fairchild, which is the world's biggest collection of
+
+[5:11] mangoes. At least United States's biggest collection of mangoes. And unlike a lot of other mango collections throughout the world, like for instance, famous mango collections, in
+
+[5:18] India, or mango collections in Southeast Asia, the Florida one is very interesting because South Day, it's like south of
+
+[5:25] Miami, where it's like the very tip where you can actually grow almost anything. You can almost grow mangous names, not quite. I mean you can, but not out in the open. Anyways, they specialize in having everything. So like all varieties of mango. And the people out there, who are their names? Norris Liedman, Richard Campbell, I believe, the 2 lead people out there. Uh, and they are mango nuts and jackfruit nuts. Last time we were, uh, rained out kind of, and also, uh, or
+
+[5:51] just this was a big, uh, it was a big mess. It was a big mess, the visit. We're going to go again. And when I go down there, I'm taking the kids to Cape Canaveral. You like that? Because, you know, Dax, obsessed with rockets now. Yeah, he want Yeah, he's like, I want to become some sort of a scientist astronaut. We'll see. We'll see. You can do it if you want. We'll see. Okay. Another... Oh, by the way, Ariel, tell him about the special, uh, the special, uh, grammatograph thing you have. The special chromatograph thing? Yeah. The Franken GC? Okay, so we have a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer, which we use for analyzing the volatiles responsible for aroma in a mixture or
+
+[6:27] sample, but we have one with a switch and a cold trap that lets us basically remix all the volatiles from a sample or take a few out and have like an omission
+
+[6:36] mixture and then see how that changes the aroma. Yeah, pretty badass, right? Yeah, it's the only one in the world. Yeah, and so. Who paid for it? Like, in other words, what research, what research had money for it? I think, honestly, we built it from spare parts. Really? Yeah. So this is one of the rare instances where you get to do something cool in a scientific context and don't need to get big industry to pay for
+
+[6:57] it. Yeah, we might have had a little bit of National Science Foundation or Jastro Shields, which is like a UC Davis-based environmental chemistry grant,
+
+[7:05] but Jastro Shields? Yeah, it's like some endowed thing. Is that like a like a space robot? that? I think it's a person. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, basically it's an old, an older GC that we replaced with a newer
+
+[7:19] model. So we, um, maybe spent like $1,2000 on parts and then put it together. Nice. And, uh, and you weren't using that piece of equipment, I don't think, but Ariel is the person
+
+[7:29] who was doing the, uh, the GC work, um, on the Searsol, showing that the torch taste that we all had thought was, uh, you know, a product of incomplete combustion was actually more likely caused by, um, secondary combustion products from the high temperature of the torch, true or
+
+[7:46] full. that's what it looks like. That's what it looks like. And also did some, you know, work for us on what happens to lime juice over time as it
+
+[7:55] ages, correct? Yeah. And you want to give us the quick, the quick spin down on the findings there? Oh, it's looking like rather than finding any specific oxidation products over the course of like 4 to 20
+
+[8:03] hours, we're actually seeing like an overall reduction in volatiles. So you think it's, and then Harold McGee, uh, you know, it's always been, uh, saying that
+
+[8:12] things, changes like this could uh, often just be the reduction of stuff that's covering other stuff up rather than the creation of new
+
+[8:19] crab. Yeah? Yeah, definitely. totally possible. Yeah, you like it. Can you imagine like paraphrasing McGee with the words crap interspersed every other word? Like for those of you that know him, like he doesn't talk that way. It's very stately. Yeah, yeah, he doesn't. he's not like crap on me, he's crap, unless he's imitating me. In which case, in which case he does. He does a pretty good imitation of me, I think. You never heard him do it? He does my jersey sometimes. Oh, yeah. Anyways. Okay, let's do some questions before we get into some other crazy. Just like, how to, one more craziness. I had a really bad dream about mashed potatoes last night. I had a horror... Yeah, it was horrible. Like, well, so it was one of these situations where you're cooking dinner, right? And you let somebody else do something at your house for dinner, you know? It's a dream. Don't worry, people. This didn't happen. And, uh, somehow they they were mashing purple potatoes. I don't know how the hell that happened in my house because, you know, usually they don't they don't match so well. But, hey, whatever. So like, whatever, they're mashing the potatoes. And then I looked at the mashed potatoes right before they were going to go out because I was seeing whether they were going to add butter or
+
+[9:19] cream, and you know, I have my thoughts about both. And uh, it was simultaneously lumpy and gloppy. And I was like, what the what have you done? the mashed potatoes. And they're like, man, I put it in the food processor. I was like, what? I was like, you know I own both a ricer and a food meal. I own both. I own several of each. I was like, 0 my god, I woke up in a sweat. I was like, I woke up and the mashed potatoes hadn't been destroyed that way. That's but isn't that horrible? That's awful It's horrible. But it reminds me of a very interesting recipe that Nils, Noran used to make where he used to actually put potatoes with a little excess liquid in a
+
+[10:02] Vitaprep, and blend them Intel every single starch granule is completely ruptured, and it formed kind of a gluey like potato gloop. And it was actually good, which is a classic example. Another thing, McGee, harps on, and I do as well, of taking something that is normally a flaw, and pushing it so hard, it becomes a benefit again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, enough, enough of my crazy. Maybe listeners should send us their food nightmares too, if they have any. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, listeners, if you have any food nightmares, I don't mean actual food nightmares like, you know, you incinerated the chicken, although I also appreciate those stories, Jack. I try to prevent you from incinerating them and then tell you why they were incinerated,
+
+[10:40] but, yeah, if you have any actual, like, food, like, nightmares like that, it's like similar to the one where, like, you're trying to run away from someone and your feet turn to rubber. You know what that is? It's your feet asleep. In the real life, you're in bed, your legs have gone asleep, and then so your legs actually can't move properly when you're asleep, and your body somehow senses this and turns your legs to rubber. Yeah. Yeah, that's my theory. But borne by the fact that I've woken up. I have horrible circulator. What the heck? This not about this. Okay, okay, sorry. Okay. We have a question in. Uh, we have a late name for the uh, we have a late name for the uh, seers all. They wanted to name it Salahammer after you, after you used us, because it, you know, looks like a hammer, function of salamander, and would be your favorite weapon of choice. So Nastasia appreciates it, but as you know, we've already chosen the name. Okay, Ryan Santos, right, saying, here's a here's a typical cooking issues question. Uh, I wrote in last week about whether it was worth spending $400 to get all uh, to get a 200 milliliter centrifuge. And I said, no. I said, I don't think so. You know, no, I wouldn't say so. You mentioned the cheaper champion model, but I mentioned I could get into the 3 liter range for about a 1000 bucks. So far, internet digging hasn't found me a model with 3 liters for that price. Can you follow up on that comment with some suggestions for that price? Quantity. thanks Ryan Santos. Well, I don't know whether these guys are all tapped out or not, but look, the trick is this. The company that I buy, my centrifuges, the manufacturer of my centrifuges is out of business. Because it's out of business, you can get fairly good prices on ones that are of semi-recent origin. Uh, listen, a decade old, right? And some of them haven't seen a lot of use. And the advantage is because they were somewhat common back in the day, there are lots of parts available. The company I use is Zhuan, which is a French company. Uh, Juan was bought by Thermo, right? which is a large manufacturer of all kinds of scientific equipment, which is, I guess, it's a division of thermal fisher, right? Thermal fisher, yeah. And so anyway, so Thermo bought those guys and then discontinued the
+
+[12:39] Jwan brand, right? So most people, when they're buying new centrifuges, most of the chefs I know, they're going, they're buying headache is what they're buying.
+
+[12:48] I don't know why. I guess they have a good price point or they know or like, you know, one buys one and then the other buys one, but I know Tony Canoyaro has a
+
+[12:54] headache and Wiley both have headaches, fairly small footprint. But for a non-refrigerated one, I think you're looking at like 7 grand and for, you know, fully tricked out one, you're probably looking closer to 8 to 10 grand. with buckets and everything like that. Swinging bucket. You want to go swinging bucket, um, we can get into that much later about why you would choose a swinging bucket or a fixed
+
+[13:14] uh, angle centrifuge. If anyone actually cares about it, I could talk for a long time about which one you'd prefer. But anyway, in the kitchen, most likely you want a swinging
+
+[13:24] bucket, just because the fixed angle rotors, unless you have like a very special fixed angle
+
+[13:28] rotor, have very narrow throats on the containers that are in
+
+[13:33] them and it's very hard to get the product out, even though technically they pellet a lot faster than a swinging bucket does.
+
+[13:39] Okay, whatever. Again. Um, I don't buy, they used ones from Juan can be very cheap. Now, I used to buy them for a couple 100 bucks. I've talked about them enough. There's not that many out there, so, you know, if 10 people listen to me, then all of a sudden the price jumps and the availabilities go down, that said, there's a company called Ozark
+
+[13:59] biomedical and there's somewhere in the Ozarks. God help me, I think they're in Arkansas somewhere. I think so. Yeah. And Ozark biomedical specializes in used and like fixing centrifuges. And one of the ones they carry is Schuan. They often have reconditioned units, and they can run between 1200 and
+
+[14:18] 2500 or 3000 bucks in that range with buckets and like a 90 day warranty, which is probably good
+
+[14:25] enough. Most stuff's going to break within that period if it's going to break. They'll also make sure that your buckets are sterilized for you, so you don't have to go on like bleachrabies.com and get rid of everything out of
+
+[14:34] it. And they make sure that your buckets aren't dinged up so that you're not going to have any like immediate fatigue fractures and a poorly handled
+
+[14:41] bucket and they make sure that the rotors are good. I mean, the hazards, these, these interfusions that rotate at these speeds aren't, uh, they're not like ultrafuses or super speeds where you actually have a possibility of, of, um, what would you call it? breaching the wall of the centrifuge. Should there be a rotor failure, right? So, you know, once you get into the much larger, much faster models, the energy contained is so great that you can throw even a large piece of equipment across and through a lab, you
+
+[15:09] know, and there are plenty of pictures on the internet's internets of rotor failures in ultra centrifuges. Now, these units, as long as you get a newer unit that has the safety
+
+[15:19] interlocks, that you can't run it, well, you can, but I'm not going to talk about, run it with the lid open. Um, you know, you're probably not in a life or limb death situation.
+
+[15:28] That said, you don't want to have a rotor failure. And when you buy used, you don't know whether some knucklehead, like
+
+[15:35] through the buckets around, you don't know whether or not they cracked it, you don't know whether they cleaned it with a
+
+[15:39] detergent that is deleterious to aluminum, which is what these buckets were made out of. You don't know whether it's sustained an impact. You don't know anything like this. So sometimes I'll take a chance and I'll look at it and, you know, I'll make a judgment, but I've been using
+
+[15:52] Centrifugius for a bunch of years and I had a bunch of people who had been using Centrifugius for years. Look at my centrifuges before I started running them when I knew nothing about centrifuges. If you go with those arc biomedical, you won't be paying that much compared, you'll be paying like probably a 3rd to less of what you would buy for the equivalent new model, and it's kind of guaranteed to work out of the
+
+[16:11] box, and they're also very friendly and will walk you through the parts of it if you have problems with it, and they carry motors and boards and buckets and all the replacement
+
+[16:20] parts. Hope that was that helpful? Yes, okay. All right. Because new ones are expensive. I mean, look, look, I just had someone yesterday. Hey, Dave, where can I buy new interviews? I'm like, you passed. why is it that we've been doing this for so long and we're still buying scrippity scrappities off the internet? Do you remember that, like, our new, what's our New Year's resolution style? you remember? No duct tape, right? No duct tape on the box. I'm still a fan of duct tape, the product, but our box of crap that we show up with will not be duct taped together anymore. We're making the move to new bankers boxes whenever we're moving stuff around by ourselves for no reason. And having other people move it. Well, I wouldn't go that far. Come on, please. I told you, it's like, it's Joe, you over there? I'm here. I'm here. You know how like, you know, when you're a musician and you say every year you're like, man, next year someone else is going to carry my base rig.
+
+[17:07] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, get a van driver. Yeah, people are going to carry our crap in and out of the gigs. That ever happened? No. course not. Yeah, no, it never happens. You always end up carrying your own crap. You know what? 42 still carrying my own crap. I kind of like, I kind of like being able to do it. Kind of keeps you not being a whatever anyway, whatever. So I have like a lot of years of carrying my own crap to go. That's what I just got from that. awesome. Yeah, you know, you know what? Like plenty of people, I don't know. Or just, you know, don't follow the route where you, you know, make it a priority to have people
+
+[17:40] carry your crap for you. Like, you know, we always dream, but never made it a priority. Look where we are. anyway. Uh, Chad Dresen rides in about this thing. What the heck is this thing? And he points to a link on Smokarama.com. awesome website name, right? That is a pretty epic website name. Yeah, yeah. You know what they make? any idea what they make? Ariel, anything? Is it food or marijuana? Wow. Good idea. They should get into that business, but they are pressure smoker manufacturers, pressure smoker, which I've never used a pressure smoker, but they're like, you can
+
+[18:13] make you can make a barbecue barbecue ribs. around here, so they don't sound like that. You can make a barbecue river like an hour, like an hour flat. I don't really know that that's the case. You can make a soft rib with a smoked flavor in an hour. Oh, is this the thing where it cooks the hamburger in like 12 seconds? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it like a pressure fryer? No, well, I mean, presumably they generate the smoke under, like the entire system is sealed under pressure, and then I guess they must use a compressor to evacuate, evacuate the excess smoke. I have no idea. I didn't have a chance to look that up because it just came to me this morning. But rest assured, we will check it out. People are interested in smoking in every dang environment. People are like, can I smoke in my vacuum machine? Can I smoke in my, can I smoke in my clothes dryer? Can I smoke? You know, everyone wants to smoke and everything. True or false? Very true. Yeah, smoke. Anyway, by Smokerama, the folks who make large pressure smokers. And then in perens, our pressure smokers any good, again, Chad, have no idea. I have no idea. Anyway. Okay. So the thing, the title of it, you ready for this? Instant burger. You like that? I wish we'd invented something with that name. Oh, seriously. Instant burger. Okay. So, uh, it cooks uh, precisely measured burgers, and by that, I mean, you're supposed to scoop it
+
+[19:22] in, like with a with a scooper. Yeah. And you're not allowed to put salt on the burger beforehand for reasons that will become apparent, but you can put in onions and bell
+
+[19:32] peppers, but if you do that, you're not making a hamburger. Listen to me people. Do not put onions and bell peppers in raw inside of your hamburger. I think it's a horrible idea. What do you think, sis? I think onions are. Raw? I like a big thing of raw onion on top of my burger. If you put it inside the burger, it'll just get like boiled. Yeah. Right? Yeah, that's not tasty. There you go. take it from the scientist. No offense, if that's the way you make your burgers. No offense. Stas is like, you offend everyone. then say no offense. doesn't help. But it does. It does. People rarely get offended. Uh, okay. So it cooks precisely measure burgers in 25 seconds without getting hot. Now, it's not strictly speaking true. The burgers get hot. What they mean is there's no, a lot of, not a lot of excess heat pumped into the kitchen. Okay? It draws an awful lot of current. I think their manual says 30 amps, although 30, maybe it's like 20. I know, I gotta look it up. It runs off a regular 110 line. So I don't know if any 110 appliances to take 30. So it's probably more like 15 or 20. Anyway, is this just an electric chair for burgers? Yes, it is. It claims to cook the hamburger simultaneously inside and out and only cooks them to well done by design. There's a microprocessor that determines when it's done, I suppose, by measuring the current load. How does this work? Love to show more questions for me to follow, Chadres and from 50 Licks LLC. Another good name, 50 licks, although, oh, no, I'm not going to get into the Tootsie Roll Center of a Tootsie Pop. We already talked about that on the air. I used to work at an ice cream shop called JP Licks. Really? Jamaica plane? Jamaica plane with licks. Was it any good? Yeah, it was really good. Oh, good. Good shot up. Okay. So, yes, this is, in fact, an electric chair for hamburgers, and it works on a, so there's direct resistance heating, right? So there's different ways you can heat things, okay? So one is by heating the air near something. This is how, you know, ovens work. Radiant heating by generating large amounts of IR, that's how, you know, infrared broilers work, French fry lamps work, the sear
+
+[21:21] zone. By conduction, those things are all conduction in one way, well, radiation's not, but the other one, the regular era
+
+[21:30] oven actually is conduction mixed with convection. I'm not going to get into it. But one way you can generate, oh, the microwaves, right, where you're actually causing friction by vibrating the molecules on the inside of
+
+[21:39] a, on the inside of the food, that's an internal cooking technique. Another way you can do it is to strap electrodes to something and pass a large amount of current through it, use the object itself as a resistor, and
+
+[21:51] then use the resistance of the food itself to heat the food, right? And that's the that's the principle of Omic direct Omic, you know,
+
+[22:00] Om, the unit of resistance, heating, resistance heating. Now, uh, a lot of this has been tried in, in actually, uh, divers talk in the Aristots about the electric chair for lobsters. Maybe. Whether it's his company in England, it tried to make it an electric chair for lobsters to shock lobsters to instantly kind of stun slash kill them before you boil
+
+[22:18] them, and it's 2 wet plates, and you pull the wet plates down and it's conductive and it, and it like fries the lobster, but you need a very, then fried it. It zorches its nervous system. But you have to use a pretty... I mean, I was using I tested it with kind of bad results because the carapace got bent in a weird way. I used regular, you know, 60 hertz wall socket, 112, 110 voltage, with mixed results. I didn't think it was any more humane and didn't make the lobster any more delicious than just cooking it and left scorch marks on the carapace,
+
+[22:50] but, um, anyway, so this was a technique that was, it was touted as a humane way to dispatch lobsters and I didn't have good luck. But that said, electro stunning is a huge field in both large value fish, like tuna, things like this, and
+
+[23:04] waveform and the way the current is applied is extremely important in terms of how effective it is.
+
+[23:09] But that, that aside. Yeah, this is an electric chair. So what they do is, is you have 2 conductive plates, you set the thickness of the plate with a spacer on the inside, you smash the thing down, it squishes the burger flat,
+
+[23:23] right? And this is why you don't use salt because presumably it changes the conductivity of the meat. And they like a specific fat content. They say it's for juiciness, but I'm sure it's also to get a specific conductivity through the meat. You push it down and from what I can gather on their on the kind of literature around it and some of the patterns around it, it just passes a large electric current through it. I don't know. It's probably measuring, yeah, how much load the burger is providing at the beginning versus the end, therefore judging doneness based, I guess, on, I don't know whether they're measuring deentriation or water loss or whatever, but it's
+
+[23:54] like, and done, and it literally heats the burger by zapping it with
+
+[24:00] the electric current. an interesting idea. Yeah. And the old models used to have a rare and a well done knob, and they've removed it because it turns out that they don't want you to actually mess with
+
+[24:12] it. And it's it's, in other words, the people who wanted rare burgers weren't buying the instant burger. It's the people that, you know, didn't want to think about things that were buying the Instant Burger, to the extent that here's what, here's their bullet points of how awesome they are. Ready? No cooking oils needed, but you do need a hamburger that's, you know, 30% set. whatever. Anyway, whatever, it's one of those things. No extra cooking oil, I guess what they mean. I mean, I prefer burger with more fat. Like, that's one thing I don't like about the Whole Foods hamburger meat is that they're like, it's 93% lane. Yeah, definitely and horrible. Yeah. Yeah. No fence. Normally, no hood or venting needed because it's not on very long, right? Here's my favorite. No cooking skills needed. Sweet. Don't you want your hamburger styles made by someone with no cooking skills? Don't worry, we make it in a way that it doesn't matter whether they give it crap or not. Really, it could be a machine pushing the button here, enjoy. Uh, and cooks out calorie laden fat, but retains the delicious natural juices. That's just hokum. That's just crap. Yeah, don't buy that. I don't buy that. Cooks out the calorie laden fat. Anyway, so I thought that was really an interesting, an interesting thing. Resistive hamburg cooker. Apparently, it will also cook chicken breasts. As long as anything you can squish flat between the 2 plates and get good conduction all the way
+
+[25:29] through. You can cook and it cooks it very, very quickly. I'm anxious to try one at some point to see whether I like it. Although if you smash a burger flat and cook the bejesus out of it. I't really think it matters that much how you cook it. What does it do to the outside, you know? It looked brown on the website, but it's, you know, it's hard to say, and I don't really know how much this thing costs. I mean, like I'm a fan of a bunch of different burgers. If you're going to have a thin smash burger. It needs to have plenty of mucho grease, and then basically what you're saying is I like the flavor of a beef crust wallowing in
+
+[25:59] Greece with hamburger fixings on it, and maybe like a little bit of meat in the middle that's, you know, still like kind of meat. Right? Is this true or false? Am I wrong? Yeah. And if you like a thicker burger, it means you actually want some sort of like, you know, the texture of
+
+[26:10] like a lot, but yeah, whatever. I mean, I see both I see both sides, but Nick Solaris, you know, hamburger guru. He likes a smash burger, I think, as well does Josh Zazirski, I think, believes. I think so, yeah. Snatch Burger fan. Modernist cuisine, not so much. They like the, they like the big poofy, open... parallel string of meat. Peril string of meat burger. Yeah. Okay. Okay, wait, should we take a break, Jack? I can't see that. I can't see the clock behind the giant modernist cuisine volume. Okay, we're going to take a break. Come back cooking issues.
+
+[26:43] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. You know, there's no more telling aspect, no more revealing virtue of a group of people having evolved in a lovely
+
+[26:57] way than how they feed themselves. How they entertain, how they put food on the table, what they put on the table. Heritage radio network provides the clearest evidence that there's hope for us yet. Heritage radios, like Fairway Market, and that we both care deeply about what you're having for dinner tonight.
+
+[27:15] Heritage radio network is not just about food, though. Every time I tune in, I learn something about things other than food, too, architecture, design, stuff like that. But from where I stand, I still say, if you can't eat it, what's the point? For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com. Did you know HeritageRadioNetwork.org is a member-supported nonprofit organization. If you like what you're listening to, go to our website and click that donate button. Become a member and get special discounts, invites, VIP
+
+[27:55] treatment, t-shirts and more. Support us in our mission to bring you the freshest food content in the nation. Welcome back. Cooking issues. By the way, Mark Ladner, good friend of ours, Mark Ladner, is doing for the Heritage Radio Network on April 27th. When is that? That's like a week and a half . Week and a half. is doing an Abruzzi style Italian barbecue on Saturday, April 27th between 6 and
+
+[28:24] nine. Where's it going to be, Stas, you know? Is it going to be here? Not sure. Not sure. anyway, Joe, you know where it is? I'm going to have to do some research, but I'll get back to you. But the Beers buy Harpoon. And the music is by Herbert Spiffling, Splifflington,
+
+[28:38] Splifflington. I wonder whether he enjoys some of the herbal medicine. comment on that one. And you can go to Italianbbq.eventbright.com to buy your tickets for $65. And you know what's worth the ticket price on loan, people, is that if you go look at the image they have for it, It's it's not Mark's whole face. It's just the special Ladner glasses. Special Ladder glasses. Stas, what are your thoughts on the special Ladner glasses? You got getting a shake of the head. getting a shake off. Pitcher is shaking off the Ladner glasses comment. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. By the way, are you still time to call any questions? 2718-4972128. 7.497 2128. Got a question in on soda bottles. Jeff Canoff at Jeff 2486 on the Twitter says, any safety issue with reusing old soda bottles multiple times for the carbonation system that you
+
+[29:31] outlined. What we're talking about is when I carbonate things I use, soda bottles, usually I use 20 ounces for test batches. I use one liters at the bar, one. 5 and 2 liters for events where you know you're going to pour a lot out. Uh, soda bottles are made of uh, PET. Uh, right? P-E-T-E-P. What are those things? One of those, one of those things. And you know, I use them multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times. Uh, and is there a safety issue? Not that I'm aware? I mean, I don't believe that they have similar issues to PVC where you
+
+[30:04] get, not PVC. Um, Lexand related things where you get, you cook it in the dishwasher and you get uh, deter, like detergents plus it plus heat equals release of nasty chemicals. I don't think that's the case. I think they're fairly neutral. I never put them in the dishwasher. I just do hot water soap rinses and let them dry out. And I'm not aware of any safety issue. The reason I think a lot of times people don't want you to reuse it is kind of bacterial reasons, but, you know, we're putting carbonated stuff in them and alcoholic stuff and we're washing them very thoroughly in between and all the time in
+
+[30:35] between they're, they're, you know, they're either dry or they're in a fridge with alcoholic beverage. They are carbonated, which are very bacteria static in general. You could get yeast, but they're not pathogens, so they're not going to cause problems. Uh, not health problems anyway. And so, yeah, I'd say from that standpoint, it's safe. You want to make sure that you use I mean, you could tell when they start to kind of go south on you and certain newer bottles
+
+[30:57] have like outer layers, I think, that are laminated on for, for, you know, gas barrier properties. But I'm not aware of any safety issues. If you use bottles that are not intended for carbonation, they can explode. So, for instance, if you use Fiji water with the goofy square
+
+[31:14] bottles that, you know, that made the 1000000s of dollars that goofy square bottle. But if you use the Fiji water with the goofy square bottle and you carbonate, it can explode. I remember once, so I'm this kind of guy where, um, where I ask once, I ask
+
+[31:27] twice and then I just scream around and break and like break craps. This is true or false, does. Three times a lady, though. Three times, that's why, that's why I only ever once got the lady. I only ever asked 3 times, you know, found my wife, got married, done, right? No, but normally it's like, I'm like, where's the bottle? No response. Where's the bottle? No response. I'm going to just grab the Fiji bottle, which is there, and I filled it full of, of course, coffee, and I was carbonating it with nitrous to get the nitrous feet, you know, the nitrous oxide, which gives a creamy feel and brings body back to coffee without giving
+
+[31:58] the that kind of that prickly sensation that you get out of carbon dioxide, and boom. It blows up and sprees coffee in
+
+[32:08] like in, you know, like, poof, all around the room. So, like, I had a line painted across me of coffee, and there was a line all around the
+
+[32:16] room, uh, in this tiny, before we were in the trash room styles, for a while, I was housed in a
+
+[32:21] closet in the amphitheater. And, uh, so the entire closet in the amphitheater had, uh, this is back to the French culinary. had like a line of coffee around it that lasted years. They could never get that thing off. Maybe they repainted over it eventually. So the answer is, is that they also, if you heat the bottles with very hot stuff, like if you're trying to do, um,
+
+[32:39] like a, let's say you were trying to do a gel and fluid gel, you need to carbonate it when it's very hot. Aside from the problem that it's hard to get carbonation at things when they're hot because the hotter it is, the less the CO2 wants to go in there. Those bottles start losing their structural integrity somewhere, probably, in the 70s or
+
+[32:56] 80s Celsius, 80s nights, in that range, they lose their structural integrity, and they can start to balloon out on you, which could be a safety
+
+[33:02] issue because if it explodes when it's hot, it's spraying hot crap everywhere. It's doing more than ruining your jacket. But other than that, I'd say pretty safe. You heard anything, Ariel, on safety? No, I haven't I haven't heard any mishaps. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like chemical safety, anything? don't think so. But you want to make sure they're not very good gas barriers over the long haul. So you don't want to store a carbonated beverage in it and think that it's going to remain carbonated in perpetuity,
+
+[33:28] right? Another problem with plastics in general. Now, these plastic bottles are designed not to do it too much. I mean, they're chosen not to do this, but like the plastics can do what's called scalp flavors. So especially if you have oil-based flavors that are in there or anything that has kind of a hydrophobic component on it, that can absorb into the plastic, then the plastic can take on a smell, which then gets transferred to your next
+
+[33:52] batch, and also it can remove enough flavor from things. It called scalping, flavor scalping, that you alter the flavor of your product by the absorption. And like you get this, especially in sodas. you'll notice in like low quality sodas with high levels of suspended oils in
+
+[34:06] a grape, uh, orange. You'll see the bottles are actually discolored, which is why, and also things like root beers tend to leave aromas in the bottle that are hard to get out, which is why when I'm
+
+[34:17] carbonating, I prefer to buy seltzer bottles because they come neutral. Man, just for what it's worth, which is probably nothing. Okay. Next question in. From Winehacker, on liquid nitrogen for Mooth. Hello, Dave, Nastasia Jack and Joe, he didn't know you were going to be here. That's okay. Yeah, okay. Love the show almost through all the back episodes. Now that I have that out of the way. I have a couple of questions. I sent Nastasia an email a couple of weeks ago with some questions about the general use of LN
+
+[34:46] in a bartime environment. She seems to have ignored it, which is fine. Well, wine happened. Your name is Winehacker. So my email recognizes you as spam. Wow. Because you decided to name yourself wine hacker. So I found it buried in 900 other spam emails. Wow, wow. See, this is why we call it a hammer. Why hacker? you're getting a little taste. He just got scooled. Well, this is very instructive. I want people to get a little taste of what it's like when she's not on the air. Like, that's like a little, like, peek through the veil of what it can be like. Anyway, wine hacker moderated the comments with, she seems to have ignored it, which is fine. I often ignore myself too. Which is very good. Like self-deprecation. Since we are closer to the date of our event. I also have some questions about vermouth. Sorry to have so many questions at once. I hope you can feel free to break the answer depart, so I don't dominate a show, whatever. I'm just going to do it. ready? They do it. The winery where I work is a Union wine company in the Willamette Valley, Oregon. Are you familiar with those people, Ariel? I've heard of them Yeah? Good things? Yeah, yeah. I've never tried their stuff but I've heard of them. All right. We'll be having an event in a couple of weeks. The theme is speakeasy. Go ahead and make fun of us for being so original, i.e. not original. Shout out of the energy. I only have a certain amount of energy. Do you have energy to make fun of speakeasies? She's all tapped out. She's still tapped out with the anger for being called out on air that she has no more, you know, anger to make fun of. Plus, like what? I'm tapped out for the day. For the whole day? Well, I don't know about that. You'll you'll get a diet, Dr. Pepper, or no, Dr. Pepper. I drink it, whatever. Don't get me started. Okay. Once she gets some caffeine after the show, she'll get her anger back. Don't wipe it. We're going to move things around in the cellar, set up a bar, rent some furniture, and other era appropriate props to fit the theme. When I began to think about drinks, we might serve in addition to our wines, I immediately thought about a podcast a couple of weeks ago and decided to make our own
+
+[36:38] vermouth. We will probably try to keep things fairly simple and offer 2 drinks. Manhattan and Martini are probably front runners. They're delicious. Partially since they both use vermouth, though I will need to make a red and a white vermouth. Anyway, one thing I'm thinking about using is liquid nitrogen. So, like, let's do the let's do the vermouth section first, because he's about to go into liquid nitrogen, but then go back to vermouth. In terms of removes, we started looking at commercial examples trying to find a couple of benchmarks. We looked at 4 examples, Carpano Antiqua, Dolan Rosso, Dolan
+
+[37:08] Blank, blank, blank, blank. Dolan Blanc, and Imbue, an Oregon made product. The Carpano stood out above everything else. Though we like some of the herbal aromatics of the Dolan Rosso. The Dolan Blanc was very nice, though seemingly relatively simple compared to the other three. The Embue had very interesting aromatics, probably using pine fur or something similar. Are there any other commercial examples you suggest we look at? Currently, I think we will try to make a sweeter red and a drier white. Well, before I get into the other things that you write? Yeah. I would look at Martoletti. So Martoletti is, you know, I had it 1st maybe three, 3 years ago,
+
+[37:43] three, 4 years ago, I started coming into New York as far as I can tell. And it's very, very good. Uh, completely different um, mouthfield, thinner
+
+[37:52] mouthfield, and different kind of aromatic setup from uh, Carpano, uh, and not played out yet, which is good. You know what I mean? Like it's like people know about it, but not a ton of people know about it, so you can still be kind of the 1st kid on your block to have
+
+[38:06] it, as far as I know. It's good. You know, made by the Carpano people, Punta Mess is, you know, try that out. And then on the white side, I guess classic, you know, you should try Noi Pratt, but, you know, I don't use it much. I actually use Dolan quite a lot for my for my white. I like the Dolan, uh, and the, they're stolen dry. I actually, and I like their sweeter one, better, the Blanc. I tend to tend to use it more than I do the dry, but not for martinis. Do you know what I mean? Although, bear in mind that the sweet vermouth that usually put in Manhattans is made from white wine. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he mentions it... Yeah, no, it's red and white only because of the color in the ad, not because it's red and white wine. Burr is the only one I think that I know of that's made is the only appertif wine that actually starts from a red. Well, the Dolan Rosso might actually be from a red one. Really? But there's a dull and sweet, but I think is... Dolan sweet white, but the Dolan sweet. As far as I know, there's the Rosso, the sweet white, and the dry. But I think the sweet whites closer to a regular. Red. Sweet for move. Yeah, I like it, actually. I like that product. Anyway, um, other thing I would look, I would go beyond, strictly speaking, vermoose, and I would go into other, uh, pair of
+
+[39:11] teeth wines, like, uh, for instance, cookie, Americano. Or if you want something a little on the kind of more mainstreaming, I guess, Lille. Yeah, all that stuff's good. So like, you know, go and and by the way, good websites for the, uh, well, I'll go into what you say. So here's a summary. This is wine hacker. Here's a summary of what I think I know about the manufacturing vermouth. Base wine is nearly always white, sometimes very neutral, sometimes an aromatic variety,
+
+[39:34] muscat, for example. Sometimes it is purposely aged and oxidized, sometimes not. I'll add also that they often use a wine where they purposely stop fermentation by
+
+[39:42] redoping it by doping with alcohol before they, right? Yeah, yeah, like port. Yeah, I mean, not the same as port. But like a similar spells. Right, yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh, wormwood, uh, chinchona bark, and gentian are the major sources bittering, can be. Yeah. right? True. Botanicals are extracted in alcohol, dilute alcohol, wine, or fortified wine sometimes, times vary from hours to
+
+[40:01] months. true. Or cooking, too. Yeah, cooking. Yeah. Well, yeah, right. Yeah. Right, heat, right, sure. yeah. Sometimes extractions are distilled or steam distilled. Of course, that would just be adding a distilled step. Is that true? Adding essential oils if you. Yeah, right. Sure. That fancy way of saying that. Sure. Yeah. I mean, his could be her, a wine hacker. Sounds like a guy though. Yeah. Caramel can be added for coloring. Juice or sugar can also be used. depends on the standard of identity, right? What kinds of juices can be added. Yeah, I think you have to add grape sugar and or cane sugar, right? No other, right? Yeah, I'd have to look it up. Total sugar is around 4% for dry in between 10 and 15 for sweet. Final wine must be at least 75% wine, the other 25 consisting of sugar, alcohol, and water. Anything else that anything else missing there? No, I mean, that sounds about right. Yeah. By the way, remember vermouth is an acidic ingredient. So a lot of times and sugar. So people add things that are like, Manhattan doesn't really have any sugar or acid. I'm like you're wrong. No, that's that's BS. Yeah, it's wrong. Yeah. Okay. I'm looking at a wine rage of herbs and flavors. I'm having trouble with color right now. There are 3 herbs I found for coloring red sandalwood, Anato seed, and rosebuds. However I think I need something more. The color is not a dark enough red. It's a bit too much like an orange colored rose. I don't want to use more sandalwood because it gives too much woody flavor. Hell yes, it does. Sandal wood? Oh, yeah. Anado's to orange. I may have to cheat and add a few percent red wine or perhaps find the sandwood extracts. Any suggestions are appreciated. Can you buy coach O'Neal here? I not sure. I mean, would you want something that red? That's hardcore reading. Well, I mean, I would focus on the flavor more than the color. Yeah, I mean, because the reds are usually actually more brown. They're because of brownie orange. Yeah, so... Yeah. Right. So like, you know, caramel classic old school caramel cone. Yeah, yeah. But if you can buy coach and eel, that's mean, like, it's pretty badass. I don't know, is it is there an FDA against that? are we okay? Is that grass here? I don't know I don't know. Coach O'Neal crushed up a.k.a. crushed up bugs. Uh, yeah, or, you know, or you could also, I mean, if you wanted to, you could use an anthosignin that's red at the at those pHs, but they're not stable. So unless you're not going to use it right away, you know, they're not time stable, they're not heat
+
+[42:09] stable and they're not light stable. you know, that's been my experience with them. Anyway, any suggestions are appreciated. Okay. Also, how may one sponsor your radio show, Joe, any ideas on that one? That would be send an email to info at heritageradionetwork.org. And also, um, the Abruisi Barbecue is going to be at the Heritage Warehouse, which is right around the corner from Roberta's. So that's my info. Yeah, but go ahead and get yourself a your hands on the Marletti and try that and try those other ones. and try
+
+[42:40] cookie Americana. We use a boatload of cookie Americano at the bar. Delicious. I love cookie. Yeah, cookie is good stuff, and an awesome name. cookie. Coke Americana? Coke. Per survivors? Yeah, Cokey. Fantastic. And go to these websites. Go to vermouth 101, which is run by Martin Duderoff. you know, Goodfellow. interesting site that points you to a lot of things. And I don't own it, but, you know, I know Jared Brown and Anastasia Miller, and they wrote a book called The Mixellini guy, De Vermouth, and other Peritis. And I haven't read the book, but I know them personally. And so you should go take a look. take a look at that. It's available on the Amazon and a Kindle. So you do not even have to wait for it to show up at your door in case because Amazon only had a couple copies as of this morning. But anything else about vermouth stuff that you learn from your study of bitters, Ariel? Well, not so much from the bitters, but, um, in the, like, VNE section of the UC Davis library, there's a bunch of copies of
+
+[43:35] Major and Amarine's, like, wine production and technology, and that has a pretty good section on
+
+[43:39] Vermous. Is that when is that from? There's additions dating back to like the 50s and 60s like through the 80s. It's not public. There's none of his public record. Can you Google book that thing? I'd have to look into it. Give them the title one more time. Yeah, um, well, Maynard Amory, I think it's wine technology and production, but, um, I could email you an actual, like, library entry. Sounds good. But I mean, like, there might be a, um, I know there's a lot of like community colleges around there that teach winemaking, so they could have... Sure.
+
+[44:06] Yeah. library stuff. Well, I mean, he's got a winery. I'm sure he's like, yeah, yeah. okay. So anyway, the other thing is, I'm thinking about using liquid nitrogen. They chill the glasses and maybe for nitro modeling. I've read your prime run liquid nitrogen, and we have 2 large 250 liter
+
+[44:19] deweries around the doers around the winery. So doer is what you hold liquid nitrogen and actually anything you put that stuff's in to doer. But usually when we say do or we mean the big doers, they store the nitrogen under pressure roughly, I think, £20 of
+
+[44:31] PSI, depending on what size do or you have, the larger 240s. And I don't know, 250s. We have 240s. They, you know, they stored a slightly higher pressure. anyway, that's where it is. So I will make a phase separator as you show. By the way, so the face separator is, it's just a muffler. It's like a cindered brass muffler that you put on the end of a tube and it lets you take stuff off of the liquid nitrogen tank. Otherwise, it sprays everywhere. Be aware that on the largers, on the 240s that I've used, they don't come out as smoothly as they come out of the 180s and the 160s.
+
+[45:00] Uh, and you can get a little bit of a choo-choo train chugga chugga chugga resonance on some of those things. And I think it has to do with the pressure it comes out of. So you might be able to adjust the length of the extract 2 to pull it out of to stop it, but we were having resonance issues on a 240 when we had it. it was like, it was like chugging like a choo-choo train. We've still got the LN out, and it's not as violent as trying to take it out at pressure, but it wasn't as efficient as it was out of the 180s and the 160s, just a little
+
+[45:25] notobene. Anyway, um, okay. I know, okay, my questions are about safety in a bar type environment. I know how to work safely in a cellar, but not at a bar. Uh, you still use, do you still use AirPods to hold liquid nitrogen? Do you suggest purchasing an insulated doer flask? Do you remove the internal dip tube from the AirPods? AirPods are the coffee things? Or can this be used to dispense the LN? seems like the AirPod is not really a closed system, but I'm unsure. If removed, how do you safely dispense the LN? does not seem like an AirPods pours very safely. Any other tips? Okay, here's what I'm going to say about this. We don't I don't use AirPods anymore. I used to use AirPods. The coffee ones with the lids on top. And I used to try to use the little dispensing unit. They aren't sealed. However, the plastic in them can seize up. You can get condensation, and then I've never had one get in a situation that's unsafe. You can always see that they're venting off, but I've gotten it where they no longer dispense properly. And
+
+[46:20] it's true, those ones with the poor tops are very difficult to get to close. At the bar, we use carafes, like
+
+[46:27] thermal, uh, coffee crafts and camping thermos is. We buy them from REI because they have a guarantee. And I walked up to the dude at the counter at REI. this sucker's got a guarantee. He said, yes. I was like, I'm putting liquid nitrogen in. This thing has a guarantee. Yes. I was like, so when it breaks, I can bring it back to you. Yes. was like, okay. So, uh, that's sweet, right? So anyway, so I have liquid nitrogen, and what we do is we own one at the bar, 5 liter, 5 liter doer, like legit
+
+[46:57] doer. And then we empty, we fill the 5 liter doer for service, bring it back behind the bar, and then use that to fill the
+
+[47:05] thermosis. You don't get that much loss out of a thermos, and in a bar situation, You're using it so fast and so much that you don't get that much of an advantage out of capping it. Because remember when you're not using it. You get a layer of nitrogen vapor above it that provides some insulation, and so you're not getting a huge amount of loss because it's got a very thin, you know, it's got a very
+
+[47:25] small, narrow opening at the top. And, uh, those things pour quite well as opposed to the AirPods, which have all that weird nonsense in between the poor spout and you because you're not meant to pour out
+
+[47:35] and you're meant to push a button and have it dispense. So I would move away from the push button dispensers and move towards coffee, thermoses, things like this. However, throw away anything that allows you to seal it. Let me speak to you again. Let me say this one more time. throw away. Don't just like, unless you take it to your house or something like this, do not ever put yourself in a situation where
+
+[47:55] anyone, under any circumstances, for any reason, can make a mistake and screw a ceiling lid onto a thermos.
+
+[48:03] I need the, I need you to, you to listen to me on this one. This is what caused the poor German cook
+
+[48:09] in, in one Germany, to, you know, years ago, to almost die and to lose. I believe he lost like one hand, all of one hand, almost all the rest of his hand, and I believe one of his legs, and he had to be put in a
+
+[48:23] medical, medically induced coma because he brought to his girlfriend's house liquid nitrogen in a sealed thermos.
+
+[48:30] Never, never make it even a remote possibility that that could ever happen, right? No, you were making a bomb when you do that. Yeah, yeah, but you know, but the thing is, is that I'm running into this too. And the older I get, the more I, you know, realize this, especially when I'm working with other people, is
+
+[48:43] that, uh, there's a difference between knowing how to not make something unsafe yourself and guaranteeing that no one else can make it unsafe,
+
+[48:51] right? And you want to guarantee that nobody out there can seal up
+
+[48:55] that container. Also, I think, you know, in light of what happened to the poor person in England. I think whenever you're bringing liquid nitrogen into a bar, you need to do a lot of safety training and that safety training is one, you know, telling people about the eyes, your eyes, keeping away from the customer, explaining ways in which it, you know,
+
+[49:16] showing how it can be safe, showing how things that they think maybe you're unsafe, like getting a little bit on your skin is not unsafe,
+
+[49:22] at the same time reinforcing all the horrible things that can happen. So, you know, making sure they understand how vitally important it is that liquid nitrogen, never, no
+
+[49:33] cryrogen, ever be served, including dry ice, ever be served to a customer in its native state. It's very easy to know that all your liquid nitrogen has gone out of your drink before you serve it. If it's smoking, it's no good to serve to your customer. I mean, it's, you know, hammer that stuff home. Uh, hammer home that keep keep the cryogens away from the customer, not just in service, but, you know, throw the throw the extra liquid nitrogen down and behind you. You know, um, be careful. Let people know that it's real. Let people know that people have gotten hurt when rules haven't been followed. Let them know, you know, let them know, read, read to them the stories of that, of that poor girl who had her stomach removed. Read to them the stories about the German who, you know, almost killed himself. Um, you know, follow basic safety rules, never let them pour it above their heads, never, you
+
+[50:19] know, you know, make sure that they don't have a situation where they can pour it into their pockets or get it caught inside of their
+
+[50:24] clothing. Just like, you know, reinforce, you know, read the primer, read other people's primers, reinforce safety like that.
+
+[50:31] The most important thing you can do when you're training new people is to engender in them a healthy respect for the bad things that can happen.
+
+[50:39] Um, I mean, it just, it just, it bears repeating. And a lot of times people think, you know, it's a gimmick, you shouldn't bring in, lots of things are dangerous. We're just trained to know they're dangerous. We know knives are dangerous. We know deep fryers are dangerous. You don't necessarily understand how or why liquid nitrogen is dangerous. You know, also, if you're dealing in small quantities in a bar. You don't need to get that much into asphyxiation, but you need to make sure a lot of people still, they'll bring large amounts of liquid nitrogen into elevators. They'll carry them up stairwells. They'll do all sorts of like awful, awful things with liquid nitrogen that most of the time won't get you killed, but then there's that time when it will, you know? So just look into it. Is that, is that, what do you think? Is that good? Good? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, uh, interesting question in. Got a really interesting one. What time is it? All right, I'm holding. So, I got a good question here, and hopefully I can finish it. Mark writes in. He wrote about nanoparticles before. Do you know anything about nanoparticles, by the way? I don't know anything about it. It was brought to my attention the safety of nanoparticles, by Marco recently. I mean, there are some concerns because they can like breach certain barriers, but
+
+[51:47] they're like too large to be dealt with the way that like regular sized particles are by the immune system. Yeah, but it's like, but the messed up thing is that our ability to produce different ones is outstripped our testing of them. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, crazy. Got to jump in. We got a few great shows on nanoparticles if you search our archives. Katie Kiefer on Straight No Chaser has done quite a few episodes. Does she enjoy the nanoparticle? don't know. No Particle fan? Yeah, fan or faux? fan or faux? you're a fan of the potential? Hmm. So anyway, thanks for feeling my question. This is Mark Reddington. Thanks for feeling my question on nanoparticles. I now have a question that's a bit more technical. I like that it's more technical than nanoparticles. I've been working on making Vietnamese rice noodles using the basic recipe in Charles fans book, also available on Epicureus.com. Charles Fann, the chef at slanted slanted door in, right? It's the name of this restaurant, right? In in uh... Yeah, the ferry building in San Francisco? Yeah, San Francisco. I've made some delicious batches for snacking and staff meal, but they are too
+
+[52:46] short and stick to each other too much to actually serve. After experimenting for a few days. I think that the dough is fine, but the potato rice that I'm using back to potato riceers. And by the way, this like after I had the nightmare, I read about this. How awful is that? isn't strong enough tool for a harder dough like this and doesn't make it look pretty. Do you have any suggestions about hacking a potato rice or to get more force or a different kind of tool that could do the same thing or any general advice about making this kind of noodle. Thanks, Mark. Okay. So 1st of all, to get an idea of what this looks like. I went to Andrea Wynn's website, Vietworldkitchen.com, to look, she reviewed fans recipe and also had a video of doing it. She also has what looks like a really cool cookbook that I don't have called Asian
+
+[53:29] tofu that I now think I need to buy because, you know, all of my tofu stuff comes from like the 1000000 years old
+
+[53:35] shirt leaf, you know, book on tofu and miso. Old school book of miso, yeah. I told you I called that guy one day, right? Really? Yeah, he picked up the phone. I was like, can you make can you make tofu from Edamami? He's like, that's a horrible waste of human resources in life. I'm like, 0 my god, sorry. But, uh, anyway. So I'm anxious to eventually when I'm allowed to buy books again. When I move my apartment. I'm going to be allowed to buy books again and I'm going to, I'll buy that book. Okay. Anyway, she has a video of it and the dough is indeed stiff. Look, I think all of these noodles and many noodle tricks in general and also dragon's beard and all this are really just exercises in water control,
+
+[54:14] right? So, like adding a little bit more water can make a huge change in the reality of your dough.
+
+[54:21] And so I would say that you could probably, look, the way that these doughs are made is that the way this dough is made for those
+
+[54:27] you don't know what the heck we're talking about, is you take rice, ground rice in this case. And you, and you soak it sometimes up to 4 days to let it ferment a little bit. And on the blog, they let you, they show you different things. You can pour off some of the soaking water and then add fresh water, cook it. Right now, you're cooking out a good portion of the starch, right? That's providing the structure for the dough. So when you're using, when you have a dough that doesn't have its own natural glutens, right, like rice, one of the ways to get structure into it is to cook a portion of the starch before you make the
+
+[54:59] noodles, and that gives you some structure so that it's not just breaking apart and turning into nothing.
+
+[55:04] That's allowing you to form noodles. right? Another way to do it that you see on, if you look on the web to make rice
+
+[55:11] noodles is people will pour a thin layer, crepe style into a steamer with a lot of oil. In fact, I saw a really cool video on it, um, and see if I can find the name of the person that I looked it up, uh, on, on, uh, Eat
+
+[55:24] Now cry later, how to make fresh rice noodles. And she paints, she paints oil and builds them up layer by layer in a steamer and then, and then peels them apart afterwards so that you don't have to peel off each one individually.
+
+[55:37] And that's pretty cool. So that's one way. But this other technique is the way also you make dumpling wrappers a lot is you pre-cook some and also shoe pastry. You pre-cook some of it to give structure, although shoe pastry is different because, well, you're retarding the gluten because you have a lot of fat
+
+[55:49] and egg in it, but then you pre-cook it to give it structure, whatever. So, back to where I was. So the point is, is that then you're pre-cooking it and then you're
+
+[55:58] adding, uh, he adds tapioca back, but some people don't. They add more rice, but tapioca is going to give it a springier texture, you control the water level of it,
+
+[56:05] and then you extrude it into boiling water and you form the noodle. So you want to be very careful to have enough water. I would add more water so you can get out of a potato ricer, or I would move to a higher tech, higher force style situation. So, KitchenAid now makes a pasta excruding attachment that actually apparently works. It's $150. I used to have their pasta making attachment for the meat grinder, and it was a little bit less than useless. I don't know if you've ever used that one. Yeah, it's useless. I mean, like, the reason it's useless. It's worse than nothing because it makes you think you can do something and it's just horrible. But apparently the new one, new one works. But there is a style of noodle in the south of India that they make with rice. And they actually use a really bizarre method where they fully cook dumpling dough. They make the dough, they do the soaking, they grind it wet, make a dough, cook it in a pan, then form it, then boil the dumplings, then take the hot dumplings and extrude them through an
+
+[56:59] extruder through a noodle extruder, but they make noodle presses for that that you can get at Indian stores.
+
+[57:06] Um, call it Savai, Savai Press. I dont know how you pronounce it, but I think survive press. But really interesting stuff there. I hadn't known about that. But one thing I did know about is they make something and I'm going to mispronounce it called a chocolate press. Those are the fried Indian fried, like, doll, noodles,
+
+[57:21] doll, and flour rice, I think rice or whatever, flour noodles that you extrude through an extruder and fry. They look like a screw, like a cookie press, but like brass and long. And those things would work for this because they have screw pressure in it so you can screw the sucker down and extrude it out. So I would do that. I would A, try to make a looser dough, and I would B, try to use one of these screw things that you can get at an Indian,
+
+[57:44] and like an Indian shop. Now, that said, reading about this, I went ape looney, right? And started doing, and I, my entire morning was shot because I was, I was looking, looking stuff up. And I'll give you a couple things. There was a guy and this is how you find it. You look up, my notes are, holy crap. What you look up is, um, making rice noodles chonking China, okay? And there's a Google. There's a YouTube, and here's what this guy does. You guys familiar with Ublek, Ublek? Yeah, the like cornstarch water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, a non-Newtonian fluid is a fluid that doesn't act where, where, you know, the, the, um, the viscosity of it changes markedly depending on whether or not it's being agitated, right? Not Newtonian fluid. So, you know, a lot of things are what's called sheer thinning. So the harder you stir them, the, uh, and the more force you apply to them, the more liquid they get, which makes sense because, you know, the things that form a mat, you hit them hard
+
+[58:39] enough and the strands align and all of a sudden becomes easier to shear through them. Sheer thinning. Well, there are things that the harder you work them, the more difficult they are. Oublek is one of them, and Oublek is made out of cornstarch and water, and you can go online and see these guys. Uh, there's a, there's a video called uh, you know, people running on a pool of Ublek. and it's yeah, it's awesome. People running across, like literally running across it, like walking on water and then stopping and sinking into it, and it's like chest deep. bit strong. like quicksand. Yeah, it's strong. Yeah, it's good. But this guy, this guy in chonking China, and I have no idea, he made some form of
+
+[59:16] ooblek noodle thing. So he has what amounts to just a strainer. that he's holding it in his hand, right? And he scoops out of a bucket, handfuls of dough that appear to be a solid, scoops them up, throws them into the strainer, and then at the bottom where there's no force on them, they're straining out like a liquid. And he does that a bunch of times until it looks like it's what he wants it. And then he holds the
+
+[59:39] ooblek over the water, into boiling water, and makes noodles that he then cooks for a couple seconds, scoops out, and then throws
+
+[59:46] them your thing. I was like, oh, that's so cool. Right? hence my notes. holy crap. Holy crap. And, you know, further on this, I kept, and then I was like, I got back on the noodle thing. And I was looking at it, you know, Chef Tom out in
+
+[59:59] California who's with the, what currently is the, the international culinary center out there
+
+[1:00:04] in uh, near San Jose. Uh, you know, he did a video on hand pulled noodles and I went to go look, because I got, I don't know, somehow I got back in a handful of noodles. Every once in a while, I've never gotten good at it, by the way. But I've noticed there's 2 varieties of the hand pulled noodles. So most of the times, like when it's attempted in English speaking, uh, posts on the
+
+[1:00:21] internet, the hand pull noodle style is one where the 1st step is to completely destroy, completely obliterate the gluten structure by
+
+[1:00:29] overneeding the hell out of it, right? And if you want to know about this, by the way, it's another thing. Do yourself a favor. If you're at all interested in how, uh, wheat scientists measure does, and you don't have access to like the expensive books, and you don't want to go like, you know, try to like go on Google books and read all of
+
+[1:00:46] Hosney stuff by like pasting and cutting between all of the different books like, you know, serial
+
+[1:00:50] signs and all that. Go, go look at HTTP, www.wheatflowerbook.org. And wheatflowerbook.org has all of the things of how wheat is rated by serial chemists when it comes in and how things are done. And for instance, they say, a sample of wheat is considered infested if it contains. strikes me as very odd, ready? A sample of wheat is infested. It contains one, 2 or more live weevils, right? Two, one live weevil, and one other live insect, injurious, distort grain, right? Or three, 2 or more live insects who are injurious to store grain other than live weevils. That's dumb. Any 2 insects. They don't care. They don't care. They're like, it can be 2 evils or a weevil or another insect or 2 insects. What's the simple size for that? Like per kilo or? I don't know. Is a weevil? maybe maybe weevil's not an insect. Maybe it's technically something else. I don't know, maybe. It's not an instant? mean, I know it's a bug. Arthropod? Yeah, it's a bug. Yeah, it's a bug, but maybe it's not actually like an insect from a technical standpoint. So that's why they have... one thing would have been sufficient. Any combination of 2 or more live insect or weeviloid things. It counts as infested. Here's another one. Definition of light smutty wheat. Wheat in a 250 grand portion that has an unmistakable odor of smart or which contains smut balls. Portions of smut balls are spores of smut, in excess of a quantity equal to 5 smut balls, but not in excess of quantity equal to 30 smut balls of average size.
+
+[1:02:24] is light smutty wheat. I think average size smut ball is going to be my next band name. right Right? Check this out. Check this out. Here's one more for you from this awesome, awesome book. At the end of the book. There are standards from the American Association of serial chemists of recipes with which to test flowers. So like when they're like, they have like the standard sugar snap, sugar snap cookie, they have ginger or whatever. They have like the
+
+[1:02:48] standard, and they also have something called the Asian noodle texture
+
+[1:02:53] test, and it literally is like you line up cooked noodles, and they have a plastic tooth that pushes down into it, right? And a sample of 5 noodle strands are randomly selected into cut into 7 centimeter pieces. The 5 noodle pieces are laid side by side on the TA, TA, dot, XT2, textured analyzer instrument platform, a 2 byte compression test is performed using a special plastic tooth. Compression is performed to 70% of noodle thickness, and then released and then redone again. And it's like literally they have an Asian noodle texture test. I mean, this document is and why it's important. Noodle texture is an important quality characteristic. Oh, really? I had no concept. This book is available for free people. This is free. Like, this is like, this is what I'm being told that I have to leave. Hold a second. before I, before I, uh, leave. So go check out the wheat uh wheatflowerbook.org. And I found that because I had to look up, you know, they have, like, one of the one of the tests they use is they make
+
+[1:03:49] a, they make a disk of dough and they inflate a bubble into it to see how it extends, right? It's called an alveolograph. Like, I'll be laying your lungs. Yeah. And so I read that in the in Paula, Paula Figoni's book, how baking works, exploring the fundaments of baking science, which I hear is really good, but I don't own a hard copy of. Another one that I need to go buy, a copy of. Anywho, so the end of the story is that I was looking up, as usual, it all ends up back in hand pulled noodles. And I was noticing that the, because handful noodles are interesting because you have, they have to pull. They have to have extraordinarily long extension, right, without snapping. So you would think very low, low gluten or, you know, a weak gluten flour so that they won't snap back, right? Right? So it seems to me that there's 2 main ways that it's done. So if you look at like the ones that are done in English. They put things typically in a mixer and they just destroy the gluten, obliterate it, wipe it
+
+[1:04:43] out, the same way that you do for beaten biscuits, which is something that I can make properly, right? Gluten is just obliterated by overmixing. Then you have the ones and those ones when you're looking at them hand pulling the noodles. They pull slowly, but, you know, quick, you know, not slowly, but like kind of evenly, and they just pull it
+
+[1:04:59] across, and you can see that the noodles, like almost want to pull themselves into noodle shape, right? And then you look at the ones with no speaking that are done most of the time in
+
+[1:05:09] Asia, where it's just some guy on the street doing it. And those guys have an entirely different technique. Like the end section of their kneading, right? First, they do the tearing and ripping and destroying it, and you can tell that they're putting water in. They're doing water control. Same way as soba, like proper soba manufacturer, all about water control, all back to water control. And you can see them when they get the texture right, but then their final kneading process is a stretching, aligning, and rolling where there actually looks like they're aligning. And after they start doing that, they never again go cross or rotate. They're always just, you know, just torsion and stretch back, torsion stretch, and then cut off little pieces and they're always going in the same thing. And those guys, right? Those guys, when they're pulling the noodles. It's like, slap a rap, dap, rap, dap, dap, slap, dap, dap, and they're pulling hard, right? And they're slapping the noodle around, which means that that sucker must have more structure. Now, the ones that I've tried to learn from have always been the Western style ones, and those are premised on the fact that there's no internal structure, one way or the other. They just beat the crap out of them, and I've always found that most of those noodles don't have a lot of bite. My question is to everyone out there who's tried it. Is there a fundamental and qualitative difference between the slapper
+
+[1:06:19] wrap dap and the beat the hell out of handful noodles? I have no idea of cooking issues.
+
+[1:06:30] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:06:40] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by underground meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin.
+
+[0:08] For more information, visit shop.underground food collective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritage radionetwork.org for 1000s more. Cooking issues.
+
+[0:56] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of Cookies. from Roberto's Pizzeria. Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined you in the studio with, as always, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, and special guests. First, of course, Piper, Piper from Booker and
+
+[1:17] Dax's iPad Piper. Hi. How you doing? And Mark Ladner, from Del Fosto. Definitely, dude. How you doing? I'm doing great. how are you? All right, I'm going to make you actually say stuff on here. Dave, you want to get close to the mic there? Who? Dave. Well, I was told not to yell into the mic. You got to get closer. I told not to yell into the... I told not to yell into the mic. All right. So, uh, so 1st and foremost, I'm
+
+[1:46] gonna make Mark, oh, by the way, calling your questions to any of us, including Mark, for all of your Mark Ladner style questions. 2 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Mark, uh, you're expensively here to, uh, to, uh, give plugs for your uh, barbecue thing you're doing here, right? don't you talk about it for a second? Yeah, I came to review with Erin and Patrick, some of the logistics for this small
+
+[2:10] get-together we're having on Saturday morning at the Heritage Warehouse, which is on this same block. So, yeah, I'm going to head over there afterwards and check on my grill. Make sure everything's... Are you going to come? You gonna bring your kids safe? When is it? Saturday evening. This Saturday evening? I would I would love to. I would love to, but someone's going to have to come take my place because I will be flying to Senegal. Oh wow. Yeah, I'm taking a trip that is being organized by a good buddy
+
+[2:41] from, you know, the Grand Dakar restaurant, Pierre Cham, who has an excellent Senegalese cookbook called Yolele. Uh, and you might have seen him on the Iron Chief. He was on the Iron Chief at one point, yeah. Yeah, I know. Have you expecting a pretty exotic experience out there? Well, I mean, the whole point of these trips, it's supposed to be a series of trips that chefs are taking, you know, American chefs are taking to Africa with a
+
+[3:05] two, with a two-part, a two-pronged kind of goal. One, we get to steal ideas and ingredients and bring them back here, right? And two, people over there. Uh, the hope is, is that locally, they'll say, oh, when people come visit our country, what they really want to see is
+
+[3:22] authentic, real deal stuff. They don't want to see some sort of BS fake French or some sort of, you know, Western garbage, that
+
+[3:30] there's that there's inherent value in doing, um, you know, very good presentations of uh, local ingredients. Yeah, because, you know, and it's the same thing in, you know, most places when, you know, when I know you're the same way. When you travel, you know, what do you got good here? Like, what is, yeah, because, uh, you know, you know, you've been to the, you know, you've been to Italy, you've been to France, you
+
+[3:54] know what's good there. So if you're going to, um, you know, if you're going to Senegal, you don't want some interpretation. McDonald's. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I spoke to a good friend of all of us, actually, who's like, whenever he travels, he goes to local McDonald's to see how they're different from American McDonald's. Yeah, it's kind of strange, though. pretty strange. Yeah, pretty strange. So anyway, so that's the that's the goal of that. And so someone will have to take my place at the barbecue, but can they still purchase the tickets at the
+
+[4:21] event, right? absolutely. Does anyone know the site to go to? Jack? The site is Italianbarbecue.eventbright.com. I'm not going to say that if you don't go, you're worthless and stupid, but I wouldn't
+
+[4:35] be pushing. I'll say that. It's it's yeah. What are you going to be making there? Some sticks. We're making some Spiadini. Yeah? Made from heritage USA's very own red wattle pork shoulder. Red water, huh? It's going to be delish. Has the price of red wattle come down at all or is it still absurdly? I don't believe so. It's pretty absurdly expensive. Not as expensive as the, you know, what's my favorite word is a pig related word is Mangalista. I've never cooked with it. You ever cook with the mangalista? It's pretty strange. Is it worthhile? Yeah, it is, it's good. Worth the money? If you like pork. Do you like pork, Dave? I do. I do. I do enjoy. enjoy the pork every night. Speaking of pork, who's our who's our sponsors today? That's underground meats. Madison, Wisconsin. Have you had their product? I have yet to have their product. I would like to try their product to see whether it is as delicious I hope it is. I believe there'll be something sent out Oh, beautiful, I like it for the show. Friend of cooking issues, listener of cooking issues, so... Well, I'm excited to try it. You know what I had last night from pork? Pork, pork related? You know, the Salamaria Belaci guys? They're excellent, you know, salumi curing outfit here in New York and New Jersey. Good people. And I've taught a lot of people, a lot of, you know, a lot of people who are known for their curing now in this area, spent a lot of time with the guys at
+
+[5:58] San Mary B. Lacy, um, kind of learning their techniques. And what they did that was very interesting way back in the day was instead of changing their procedures to meet, um, to meet food code, they hired and paid for people to prove that their techniques were safe from
+
+[6:14] a uh, food from a food, you know, food safety standpoint. It's true and absolutely fascinating. I think they're the only people that have actually gotten away with that. Yeah, I mean, they spent, I think, a lot of money, you know, but they, you know, their point,
+
+[6:27] and I was hanging out with Paul from there yesterday, and the point that they made years ago when I 1st met them was, well, you know, I
+
+[6:33] don't, if I'm not going to do it the way I want to do it, I just, I don't want to do it. So, you know, let's see whether we can. And they did. Yeah, I don't know anyone else who, I don't know anyone else who does that, but they had, they had the most delicious wild boar supersata that I had yesterday. Of course, I'm from the east, I call it super sock. But anyway, but like it was ridiculously good. And they apparently they had these wild herds in Texas that they let Rome free and then right before slaughter. They heard them together and like slaughter them. I guess shoot them in the head. So it's all wild fed, but USDA. Really good. You had that product yet? I have not. I have not. Sounds good, though. look out for it. You want that, right? Okay. Love more. All right, now, 2 some questions we have. Okay. Mark writes, not this mark, not Mark Ladner, the mark from the noodle questions last week. Thanks for discussing my rice noodle predicament. I tried adding more water because I told them maybe I had more water. If you remember, if you listened or whatever. He was trying to make a rice noodle. It's made from partially cooked out hydrated rice starch mixed with more rice starch and water and pressed through, you know, through a potato ricer into boiling water to make noodles. And the reason you pre-boil part of the starches because otherwise, you know, rice starch doesn't really hold together very well if it's just rice starch and
+
+[7:43] water and it'll fly apart on you. So, uh, so anyway. So, uh, that I told them more water is what I told them. Or a more baller press. Those are the 2 choices I gave. More water, more baller. Okay. I've tried adding more water, but the texture of the final noodles, compromise. I'm definitely going to try the Indian noodle press thing you mentioned. I can't see how that wouldn't work because in India, they make these noodles from cooked out starch and they're really stiff and so they need really hardcore presses to press the stuff out. Hey, have you ever tried, Mark? KitchenAid, the new powered extruder that fits on the KitchenAid. I haven't seen it. Yeah, I read about it last for last week, but I've never seen it. You have one of the really nice new pasta. Not the Arcabolino. Yeah, the other one or you have the Arcabolino? No. The other one? I'm not sure of the name right now. I think it's a itology. Yep, and you enjoy it, correct? Yeah, it's good. don't do a lot of extrusion. Most of our stuff is handmade, but I've seen Wiley use a pretty interesting extruder that's sort of like a cocking
+
+[8:42] gun. Yeah, the one he used to use the shrimp noodles? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That one's pretty cool. Takes a lot of torque, though. I mean, I don't know how you would do it with a racer. Yeah, I mean, like the Ricers, I mean, I have a good stainless steel ricer, but I also had a plastic ricer and I know that I would break it. I know I would break it. I mean, I know me. I would break it. Okay, back to the question. But concerning the methods of hand pulling noodles that I was talking about that me, Dave, was talking about. Because basically when we look on a handful of noodles, the question is, is that there's some guys, and it's usually the people who are attempting to
+
+[9:13] mimic, uh, you know, Asian recipes from an American standpoint, their pulling style and their hand pulled noodles is,
+
+[9:20] uh, it shows that the dough is so slack that if they pulled overly hard at all, it would just fly apart into
+
+[9:26] nothingness. And then occasionally, you will see those guys pull the stuff and the noodle strands will break and fall into nothingness. Whereas if you look at the actual guys doing it in Asia, they're
+
+[9:35] thwap, the dap, the lap adapting that stuff around and it looks like it has a lot more resilience to it. And from my perspective, a dough that has more resilience in
+
+[9:44] it, if it could be pulled, is going to have better tooth. I mean, it's just obvious to me that it's going to have more tooth if it's got more structure, when you guess. Yeah, I don't know. Where is the introduction of that alkali water stuff that they use? Is that the real secret ingredient? Well, so a lot of people are using, they use alkali water in, or they, whether they use baking soda. Most American guys use baking soda, when they're doing it and they add some and that should, so when you add it to a regular noodle, not one of the kind of
+
+[10:10] overprocessed hand pulled noodles, but a regular noodle, it's going to strengthen the gluten and also, depending on the cult of our wheat, you use increased
+
+[10:19] yellowness. So you got the yellow alkaline noodles that have the snap to it, right? But a hand pulled noodle is never going to have that kind of bite to it because in order to pull it, if it had that kind of bite to it, it wouldn't pull right.
+
+[10:30] You know what I mean? So it's, you know, when you're making the hand pulled noodles. You have to get to a point where the, uh, you know, where, um, you know, it's not
+
+[10:38] so, uh, elastic is going to break short, but then it pulls. You want the extensibility, but not necessarily able to pull back elasticity. Have you ever successfully attempted this yourself? No. No. No. I mean, I've never even known anyone that's tried. No, I mean, I've tried it. I've gotten stuff that like, I was like, oh, I can see where this might work, but I've never been like, oh, I'm good at
+
+[10:57] this. Or, oh, I would serve this to my friends or family, you know. And that, you know. And so, but, you know, the guy, Chef Tom. Anyway, so let me finish it. concerning the methods of hand pulling noodles that you were talking about, my limited experience, the thwacking method is really helpful if your noodle dough has been sitting, which makes sense because the gluten
+
+[11:15] strands would probably rejoin together a little bit for more of a network. I've only used the recipe from Chef Tom, which is the one available on the internet. And I found if you pull the noodles right out of the mixer bowl like he does in the video. They are easy, but they can tighten up after resting. So a few quick thwacks can help get them back to being pullable. Maybe the resting can help add chew. Thanks again. Mark, I think you're right. I think the resting adds too. But you know, the thing is, I think, like anything else, there's so much more to know. Like the one thing I almost got good at was doing the dragon's beard candy. And even then, I sucked compared to, you know, the, you know, the 1000000 year old dude has been doing nothing but Dragon's
+
+[11:47] beard candy because, I don't know, because that's all he does. I don't know. You know, like anything else, like there's the techniques, the more you learn about them, the more you know that you don't, that you're not really good at what you're doing and that you're a farce. You know? What you say? But on the Ublek noodles, I was talking about, if you remember this, this guy who saw this video, this insane video where the person was Ublek is something that like acts like a solid, but then when you're hitting it, but then when you're not hitting it, you know, it drains through
+
+[12:12] a, it turns to a liquid. And so there's videos of guys, cornstarch and water is the most famous one. You can make, just mix cornstarch and water, and these guys running across a pool of cornstarch and
+
+[12:21] water, and then stopping and sinking all the way up to their chest in this pool of cornstarch and water.
+
+[12:25] Uh, and then we say, well, how the hell do you make these Oublek noodles? And, uh, eating Asia said it's, uh, they're actually not rice, which is what we thought last week, they're sweet potato. And Paul Adams has made a proper ooblec noodle. And so you go on my Twitter there, cooking issues. He made it with 5% pre-cooked sweet potato starch, balance, uncooked with water and alum. And I still don't know what the alum does. But anyway, so enough with the enough with the updates on the noodles, right? Good? Okay. Ben writes in on miso and beans. Ben says, big fan of the show actually became a heritage radio member at the low cost of about ¢50 per cooking issues episode. Thanks, Ben. amortized over all of our episodes. That's changed, dude. And we've done a lot of these dang things. Anyway, 2 unrelated questions. I saw Dave Chang on Mind of a Chef. Have you ever seen Mine of Chef? have not. I have not. Have you seen it? I don't really, I don't, I don't get, I get PBS now, but I, well, and I went to go look at it online, but the PBS took it off because, because they're publicly funded and so they wouldn't have it streaming.
+
+[13:24] I understand that. Does that make any damn sense? Makes no damn sense. Okay. I saw Dave Shang on Mind of a Chef discussing the pitiful quality of American Miso. Is there any way to make miso in a home environment, and could you achieve the superior quality to what's available in the store that way, granting it may take a
+
+[13:40] year? Failing that, any New York City or mail order sources of quality Mesa. Now, look, you know, Dave is occasionally, um, you know, liable to make some hyperbolic statements. In fact, there is, you know, you can get some delicious miso here in
+
+[13:54] the, in the US and you can get some crap miso here in the US. Most Americans when they go buy me. I mean, actually, Nastasia, Mark, and I were all in Japan about a year ago. We had some some pretty good meat. Did you have any good misa when you were over there? I some amazing miso. I had the guy who was the head of purchasing from Park High. bought me some hatcho miso, which it is very hard to get really good hatcho miso here. I don't never seen it available. I've seen really bad versions of Hacho Miso here that I guess weren't treated well. And Hacho Miso is one that's aged for an extremely long
+
+[14:26] time. It's made exclusively soy beans and it's very dark and kind of rooting flavors, like salt and coffee and all sorts
+
+[14:34] of really awesome stuff. And the real, the real good stuff is just light years beyond, you know, the crappy version that
+
+[14:42] is that I've had here in the US. However, they're extremely high quality misos that are brought in. Most misos, most people like the lighter misos or they get hooked on the lighter misos, like the shiro misos and things like that. And most of those are done with very short fermentation times, and then they have to dope them up with things to stop
+
+[15:00] them, stop them from growing in the package and blowing off. And so those can taste not so great. Right? But any major city that has a decent Japanese population in New York being one of them. I'm sure San Francisco or any, any, you know, is the same, go to any one of those Japanese places, and they have on
+
+[15:19] hand 20, 20 different misos, some of which are going to suck, and some of which are
+
+[15:25] going to be good. And now, not being able to read anything in Japanese and not being able to communicate with a lot of people that are selling me the stuff, you know, even though they actually all speak, they all speak English in the stores
+
+[15:35] here, but I still, for some reason, can't communicate with them at Sunshine Mart. Can you have this problem, Mark? Spanish. I don't know shit about miso, Dave. Anyway, so but you've been to sunshine, Mart. Yeah. See what I'm talking about. Like, they speak English fine, but still they don't communicate with me. I don't understand it. Anyway, Piper, you ever done this? Nah, you don't care. taste this. Okay. So anyway, so because you're trying, when I walk into a store, here's what I want to know. You have 30 different things. I don't want to fool around. I don't have the time. I can't even type this stuff into a search engine. Just tell me what the good stuff is. Just point out the good stuff, right? And even though I know it's a very nuanced question. Like, still, like, if someone walked in and then, and, and, you know, I had a bunch of different price ranges of
+
+[16:20] things, and I said, why is this thing cost more? They would have some sort of explanation. Anyway. So I end up just buying like, you know, a couple of the higher priced ones and
+
+[16:29] and maybe one of the crappier ones to see what the difference is taking home. But there are some very, very good misos available here, but you can make your own. If you want, but this said, miso is, there's a lot of steps in miso, and anything where there's a lot of steps, even though you can do it yourself, there's a lot of room for not being as good as the people who are actually very, very good at it.
+
+[16:47] It's the same way that you can bake bread at home, but most of us, unless we don't, unless we devote a lot of time to it, aren't going to make bread as good as the best bread makers that we can go visit. But if you want to make your own, you should, well, 1st of all, you should probably own at any rate, uh, Sandor Katz's book, The Art of Fermentation. He has a small section on Miso. And then he, he actually directs you to the kind of still, you know, I think almost 2 decades or more later, like grand tome on me,
+
+[17:12] so by William Sherliff and Kiko Oyagi, which is the book of Miso, the same people that brought
+
+[17:18] you the book of Tofu. I've talked about these guys on the air a bunch of times. The tofu book, I think, and I told you, I called him and he was like, he called me a bad person for trying to make tofu out of
+
+[17:27] edamame. He said I was like a, he actually said, I think that I was a bad human being. And, um, anyway, uh, he, uh, you know, his book on tofu, I think, has been superseded with more modern books, but I think his miso book is still the, his and her miso book is still the, the one to
+
+[17:42] get, uh, Beware that they have abridged small paperback versions of the book of
+
+[17:47] Tofu in the book of Miso, and they've been hacked up and then reglued into a paperback form. And to me, that was almost unreadable. Get the big version, like the larger version, whether in paperback or in hardcover. Uh, and uh, you can go to his website, uh, It's a funny thing. It like both of them. him and her, but then whenever someone's writing, it's always him writing something, so I never know. You know what I mean? Anyway, uh, soyinfoCenter.com and uh, good source, good source for uh, Koji. You need Koji to make miso, and a good source for that is gemcultures, www.agemcultures.com. What do you think? Enough on Nisa? Yeah? You know what my favorite misos are? I like barley misas. Barley misas, me the misas. You like barley miso Piper? Never had it. What the hell is wrong? You guys don't like miso? I just don't use a lot. Why? What's your hate down on music? Nothing. No hate down? No, I just don't use it. cook with it. It's stuff delicious. I agree. I actually, like, you know, a lot of people like Chang hates this, but I like putting miso
+
+[18:47] in things that it doesn't belong in. Like, I really like, uh, I like I like milk-based miso soups. I like cream of miso soups. I like, I mean, it's just such an awesome rich flavor, but, you know, apparently I'm a bad person. Here's another one. Like, okay, you ready for like a bunch of people? I'm gonna lose a bunch of listeners now. Ready? I like, I like with, I know that I'm a bad. I know it's bad. I know it's stupid, and I know that, like, and I guess you have to be a certain generation for this to be really offensive to you, but wasabi, mashed potatoes taste good. I'm sorry, they do. Like wasabi mashed potatoes taste freaking good. Now, you know, okay. I said it. I'm a bad, bad man, and it's like incredibly trite, and, you know, I shouldn't like them, but they don't. Blasphemous heretic. Yeah, right? But they don't taste bad. Do they taste bad? I'm not going to make Mark comment because, you know, he's professional in this. They don't taste bad. How about this? What about mustard and mashed potatoes? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Oh my god. Gotta call her. I got, I got, call her, you're on the air. Hopefully it's not about the wasabi. It's not about wasabi. Hi guys. Um, I'm calling because I have a bunch of delicious leftover duck fat from a duck roast that I
+
+[20:02] did, um, and I'm interested in a sweet application for it. So I was just wondering if I could substitute it one for one for
+
+[20:09] butter. And whether you have any, um, awesome recommendations of something that would be as particularly delicious in a sweet duck fat pastry kind of a thing. Mark, what do you think? You got anything? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's awesome. Make a pie. Yeah, pie was the 1st thing that came to my head. an empanada or some penzo at the ear, something like that. Yeah, I mean... It's going to be flaky. A little softer than it's going to be a little softer than lard, right? But any sweet that you would add lard. I mean, like there's no made a better pie crust than a lard base crust, right, Mark? Never. Crisco. That's illegal, though. Yeah, but the flavor of lard better than the flavor of Crisco, though. That's true Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not so, I'm like, I don't really care whether it's the flakiest thing in the world as long as the taste is good.
+
+[20:59] Are you like a huge flake man? No, not necessarily. Have you done a pie crust with duck fat or ever? assuming it would be good. I have not. I assume it would be good. But here's the thing. throw it into mashed potatoes. You're making fun of me. I wouldn't want the sweet match today, but check this out. One thing I'd be aware of is when you're making pie crust, you know how everyone says your butter has to
+
+[21:22] be like exactly the right temperature? I find that that's kind of like crap that you can kind of make pie crust with any form of butter
+
+[21:30] in any form of Crisco. And in fact, Steingarten in his 1st book. You know, has a whole thing where he and Marion Cunningham make pie crust, uh, and they don't worry about the temperature of their water or anything like that. But once you move to highly plastic fats that tend to grease out on you,
+
+[21:43] lard being one, and I'm presumably duck fat being another, especially after it's rendered. Duck fat, you're like, oh, it takes forever to render out of the skin, so it must be really resilient. No. Like once it's there, like it softens up quick in your hands when you're working with it. Now chilling your water and making sure that the, that the, that the fat's exactly in the right plastic range is going to be a lot more critical because when you're making those kinds of
+
+[22:05] things. I guess empanada is not as much. But when you're making like a pie crust, you really don't want to melt out too much of the fat into
+
+[22:12] the, into the flour because it's just going to change the consistency. It won't necessarily be bad, but it won't be the same consistency. That's my feeling. What a, uh, like a buttercream crossing? you have a question? I don't know. Sounds good actually. This is why I like Piper around, but like a duck buttercream, a duck cream, ducky, ducky cream. Duck cream. I would try doing a I would try maybe subbing half out to see whether it works. That's what I'm thinking. And then so like, you know, replace half of the butter with the duck fat. But see, Piper, this is why we keep Piper around. Piper has some awesome ideas. He also is the master of punch. If you need a pun, Piper. Yeah, you need to come to Piper for the post. All over it. Do any of these ideas help out at all or no? Absolutely. That was really helpful. I think the half and half is probably the way to go. And freezing it in thin sheets for laminating. Oh yeah, yeah. best way to work with it, yeah. Oh, there you go. Colder the better. There you go. Bang. All right. And so we're going to call that one Piper, Piper. What are we going to call that? Let's give it to it. Just remember, Piper, when you make it and you tweet tweet back to cooking issues saying that it was delicious. Just, you know, don't forget Piper. Okay. I promise I will. Cool. Thanks a lot. Okay, the 2nd question Ben had was, what's the deal with kidney beans, red kidney
+
+[23:29] bean, toxicity. My understanding is that soaking, followed by boiling, can deactivate the toxin and kidney beans, which is a
+
+[23:35] phytohemaglutenin, but that temperatures below boiling could exacerbate it. I've seen Texas, obviously non-Texas style because Texas style chili has no beans in it, right? Although I like beans in the chili. Am I also a bad man because I like beans in my chili? I like beans and chili, Dave. Piper? Beans and chili? Always Yeah? Yeah. So, you know, people who are meat only, just need to need to get over it. you know, purism of any sort. Like, sometimes purism is fun, like at dinner parties, to have like, and we could talk about Colonel Sanders being a purist later because, you know, he was like kind of the purest of all time,
+
+[24:05] insulting his own restaurants. stuff's amazing. Anyway, but there's no reason to be a purist and beans and meat, they love each other so much, especially in Chile. So, yeah. Although I like a meat only chili. Uh, I've seen obviously non-Texas style chili recipes. They call for beans to be soaked and salted overnight, then simmered on a gentle heat for a couple of hours in a
+
+[24:24] Dutch oven on a stovetop. Is that safe? Kenji Alt's recipe on Sirius Eats is one such example. Okay. So here's the deal. Kidney beans. And a lot of other beans, similar beans contain in them, PHA, phyto,
+
+[24:39] a hemoglutenin, along with other what's called anti-nutritional factors, right? Some of them are, you know, undigestible things. Some of them are protein absorption inhibitors, and some of them are just,
+
+[24:51] uh, you know, uh, sugars that you can't uh, digest, and so they make you, um, toot. Yeah, flatus. Oh, the Piper busting out the flatest. Yeah. It's what makes them a musical fruit. Let's just put it that way. And you know, Booker, my son, Booker, has stopped eating beans because Dax told him that they make him fart. He's never had a problem with it. Like, Booker's never been running around the house tooting out with beans, and yet the idea that it might happen now has turned
+
+[25:14] him off of beans until he says, daddy, you need to, you need to have a way to guarantee that they won't make me toot. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't do that. I can't guarantee. Spending that much time on the subway, though, you dude, you should be concerned. Well, yeah, he's not a subway tutor. I hate the subway tutor, not as bad as the airplane tutor. Airplane tutor is the worst. What? You know what the worst, the crowded bar tutor? Like, because you're trying to, like, enjoy something and, like, someone, like, just toots out at the bar. Anyway. Okay. So, if you go on the FDA's website and their bad bug book, right? they, in fact, put out this notion, and if you go on the Wikipedia, of course, yeah, like you can trust the Wikipedia, necessarily, if you go on the Wikipedia, they both mention the fact that incorrect cooking, and they both mention, I think, uh, 85C, cooking it at these kind of simmering temperatures, can increase by some, you know, order of like fivefold the toxicity of, of the, of
+
+[26:14] PHA. And what it is, is it's a form of electin, which is a protein that bonds to polysaccharides. And another style thing like that is ricin,
+
+[26:24] which, you know, just got mailed out to some of our politicians, unfortunately, comes from the caster beam, but that's deadly. PHA is not going to be deadly, but if you eat too much PHA, in the form of a raw or undercooked kidney bean. It's not fun. Like, you know, you got yourself some diarrhea and some some sickness and some, but you're having to die. I don't think. Probably not. Although, don't take my word, don't go out and eat raw rocketing. But, uh, and you know, like I say, you can read about it in the clinical complications, but as you say, what's the deal
+
+[26:53] with that? Why would cooking it at a lower temperature make it much more, much more toxic? And then when I went to try and read all the scholarly articles I could get on the subject of
+
+[27:02] deactivated, because it's a big, it's a big deal, making getting rid of the anti-nutritional factors and things like kidney beans. In fact, I did not see that that was the case. I did not see any situations where soaking and low simmering actually made it much worse. I think here's my feeling on it. And at least someone who's a doctor, come and tell me why I'm wrong that if you were to cook a bean at a temperature that wasn't going to deactivate a lot of the PHA,
+
+[27:27] they wouldn't taste cooked. So if the bean doesn't taste cooked, then the bean's not cooked and you probably shouldn't need it. If the bean tastes cooked, it's probably been activated at 85, you know, it's probably been
+
+[27:38] activated, cooked above a temperature to deactivate to denature the protein to an extent that it's okay. My guess is that the person who, that, whatever study, which I was not able to find, uh, even though the
+
+[27:50] US government puts it out there as a fact that you can make it worse by undercooking it, it's got to be
+
+[27:55] that uh, partially breaking up the bean and then masticating it makes more of the bad stuff that you haven't deactivated yet available to your system. It's got to be it, right? I can't think of any other mechanism. Anyone? Anyone? Just cook your kidney beans, for Christ's sake. We need to hear about it more often. What? A lot of people put beans in a crock pot. You think you'd hear about people getting sick from it? Yeah, you'd think. Well, so another study I read called to see if I can find the name of the study here, I can't, but it's called like clinical presentation of kidney
+
+[28:26] bean toxicity, and it just came out this year. Oh, here it is. Clinical Complications of Kidney Bean, Physiolis Vulgaris Consumption by Sandeep Kumar, February 2013. Made the interesting point that these toxicity things come up more often in the UK than they come up in the
+
+[28:41] US. Different cultivar, perhaps, that we consume. Another possibility is that aside from actual toxicity due to PHA,
+
+[28:50] there's it could be another factor in allergic reactions to leguminous
+
+[28:54] things and maybe there's some other complicating factor. The ones in the UK. I don't know, but the study specifically said there's a higher incidence of problems in the UK. Because in the US, you're never like, man, my cousin, man, in the hospital after that kidney
+
+[29:07] bean. You know what I mean? ever you ever heard of that? Never Dave. No, it doesn't happen. Okay. I think we should go to a break. Oh, commercial break. come back We could be issues.
+
+[29:42] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, They also use ingredients from the Upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. Oh, be great. Welcome back to cooking issues. All right, so we have a question in from Mike and Orlando says, Dear Dave and Hammer, and little did Mike know that Mark Ladner would be in the studio today to answer this question so that I wouldn't have to give my kind of useless information on it, Mark
+
+[30:55] Gibbs. Don't assume that's going to be helpful. I think this one's going to be good. David Hammer, every weekend at our house. We also have family dinner with my in-laws. I have family dinner, although not usually with man-laws, whether they're always welcome when they're in town. My wife really loves Carbonara. Who doesn't? Love it. It's good product. Good stuff. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out the best recipe for it. I've heard you and Hammer argue about bacon versus pancetta. I live in Florida. We don't have very good pancetta down here. What do you recommend? Love the show. Thanks for everything. Mike in Orlando. First of all, before I let your recommendation. Do you believe in the old school where people soak and soak and like simmer their American bacon to get rid of the smoke or is that just ruining the flavor of the pork all over the all over the map? I like the smoke, Dave. Yes! Yes. Yes! Mark Ladner. We're in America, damn it. Oh, sweet. Sweet. Sweet. All right. Well, you know, really nothing much more I can say about that, because the fact of the matter is, bacon is delicious, but if someone actually wanted to have more of a pancetta experience,
+
+[32:00] Is there any good mail order source of pancetta or anything, anything you like here? Perhaps Belese. Do they mail order? imagine they would. I can't imagine they wouldn't. Right. I mean, they make a top, they make top notch stuff across the board. Yeah, poorly made industrial pancetta is absolute garbage. I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend using it. It's just really salty and smell and smells and tastes of chemicals and stick with some bacon. Well, especially in something like that, if it doesn't have the smoke in it, the poor quality of the poor
+
+[32:33] pork's going to shine through, right? You don't want the pork. Well, one of the alleged stories about, um, the, uh, the history of uh,
+
+[32:45] carbonara is based off World War II, American GI, C rations, and being powdered egg and some sort of bacon product.
+
+[32:57] Have you ever made it with powdered eggs? I never have. I bet it's no good. Powdered eggs? Depends on how desperate you are. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, as Colonel Sanders said about the Egg McMuffin, I would eat it in an emergency. But, uh, well, in case I put some of it up on my Twitter feed last week, but we've been reading around here this 1979 interview with the
+
+[33:25] 89 year old Colonel Sanders, where it's a genius interview. in a book, a humor book called junk food, and this guy goes to the Colonel Sanders, and he brings an egg McMuffin, a filet of fish, a
+
+[33:36] Big Mac, a Krispy Kreme, donut, and then a bunch, you know, some other, some other, you know, fast food stuff to him, milkshake, and all this, and gets this kernel, the kernel's opinion on it, as well as the kernel's opinion on Kentucky fried chickens,
+
+[33:49] uh, own products, and it is an amazing, an amazing interview. The guy had, they had him a Krispy Kreme donut and the, the colonel pulls a gold spoon out of his pocket and just starts nudging all the different
+
+[34:01] foods and when the guy said, what do you think of the Krispy Kreme, he just size and stares at the ceiling. I do not like yeast raised donuts. They turn into balls of dough, don't you know? Anyway, like it's like an amazing, amazing interview. Someday we had to just put the whole of it up on the cooking issues website, see where we get sued. Anyway. Okay, so I think we got the we got the pancetta. We got the pancetta nailed down. Okay. You can get bacon that has less smoke in it also if you wanted to, although again, smoke is delicious. Now, here we're onto the tasting portion of the cooking issue show. We've never done this before. We're doing a live taste on the air. What What? Uh, she's saying pop it open, Piper. Uh, so, uh, John Riper writes in. Deer cooking issues peeps. A few years back, Harold McGee showed that holding olive oil at deep fat frying temperatures for 5 minutes drives off pretty much all its distinctive flavor compounds.
+
+[34:54] Some Italian cookbook authors harumped at that by some Italian cookbook authors. It's Marcella Hazan. Some Italian cookbook authors, Harump, at that, and said
+
+[35:04] that the olive oil will indeed impart its flavor when cooking an egg on your conditions much milder than
+
+[35:08] Harold tested. Most of us cooking at home use olive oil in the huge gap between those applications. In the initial minute or three, but when the oil is hotter than you'd want it for an egg. Can you give any useful guidelines? Wait, whoa, shit. I mean, shoot. Oh, I love you, Piper. All right. I didn't mean to curse on error. I apologize. We'll get Jack and Joe to bleze that out. 1st one in a while, though. I gotta hand it to you. Yeah, but what I thought was happening was these like all of these containers that I had like
+
+[35:35] labeled, that the labels were getting mixed about, none of us would know which containers were which, and then the entire thing would be ruined. So I apologize out there in listening land for the curse. Why does your oil smell like eggs, Steve? Oh, okay. Oh, good knows, though. See, I love that. I'm the same way. When someone cracks something in the thing, I'm like, what is that, blah, blah? anyway, okay. Okay. Can you give any useful guidelines about how fast olive oil loses its flavor as it heats up and whether those flavors are transferred and retained in the
+
+[36:03] cooked product as the oil loses them? Well, I can't give any hard and fast rules, but I did read Harold McGee's article that you forward to us, which was a New York Times from November of 2010. And let me just say something about Harold McGee is that when Harold McGee does something, he usually does it right. You know what I mean? He doesn't mess around. So he sits there and he doesn't make off the cuff statements. ever. I mean, never. You know what I mean? And so you should go read his article. He tests a bunch of different seed oils, a bunch of different nut oils, and a bunch of different olive oils, of varying qualities,
+
+[36:36] uh, under 2 different heat regimes, uh, and then takes those oils also to, um, takes those oils to specialist olive oil tasters and has them
+
+[36:45] taste it to see kind of what happened. And the result is, is that in his opinion, most of the actual quality of the olive oil is lost fairly quickly during
+
+[36:53] the, during the cooking time. There is a rebuttal on Zester Daily by Nancy Harlan Jenkins, and you can read it on there.
+
+[37:01] It's Friday Rebuttal, and I'll give you a quote, and I have a lot of respect for Marcella Zan, because who doesn't have a lot of respect, but she says something here that really ticks me off. Hazan, who has degrees in natural sciences and biology, immediately rose to the challenge,
+
+[37:14] Parel McGee's challenge. She seemed to have a great, she seemed to heave a great sigh in her Facebook page. It was discouraging once again to see a scientist writing about cooking as a scientist, she wrote. You can only make sense about cooking if you write as a cook. Now, I absolutely hate, when people say, especially about McGee, that he is just a scientist in a lab thinking about, McGee is a lover of all food eating, gusatory experiences, and he doesn't sit around, like, I hate the majority also of food science where things are reduced to meaningless, you know, quantities, and you don't really get a feel for what actual cooking is like by reading it or the studies that people
+
+[37:58] do don't actually have a implications for real world cooking. McGee is not like that. McGee is not a scientist in a laboratory doing stuff. McGee is someone who, and if you read his original book, The Curious Cook, it fantastically shows you,
+
+[38:12] like if you want to know what's in McGee's mind, how McGee works, read a curious cook. It's out of print, but it's easy to get. And what he does is, is he notices something in a kitchen, or someone tells him something, and sparks an idea in his brain, and he runs it into the ground, and he runs tests, using his mind and his mouth. He is not, he, like, I know what it's like to talk to scientists who, uh,
+
+[38:34] poo-pooh, the real world and actual experience. McGee is not that. So I bristle at any implication that that is what McGee is doing in the article because that's just wrong.
+
+[38:44] Now, what she does say is that anyone that's cooked and quotes someone that McGee knows, but that wasn't in the olive oil tasting, that everybody knows that if you cook an egg in a good olive oil, it's better than if you cook it
+
+[38:55] in not good olive oil. So what I have for these guys to test here. I have the same oil under 3 different procedures, and I want you to smell them and, you know, tell me about the different oils. And then I have one egg cooked in an olive oil and one egg cooked in
+
+[39:11] a, well, I didn't have, I didn't have any non- olive oil in my house, actually. So the only thing I had was Pam. So I put an extra amount of gross kind of Pam in the, because I use it for my waffle maker, a Pam in the, and fried an egg and Pam. Yeah. So why don't you guys 1st just go for the oil? So why don't you pass these around here? Which one, let me read the lid because it doesn't, doesn't, that one says SLOO.
+
+[39:40] All right. So what are your, what are your thoughts on the SLOO? Mark? Smells very vegetal. Yeah? Yeah. It smells like shit, Dave. Stuff smells like stuff. Smells like a fish, actually. Which one which one is that one? that's EV. That labeled E-V-O-O. All right. And then the last one? Yeah, passes around. Here you go, Mark's among the last one. Labeled a Rufo, R-U-F-O. Smells like pure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so you taste them. And so there's a, so what would you say about the, the, the, like, uh, give Mark the middle one again. Piper, you taste it. This the strongest one. This feels this tastes raw. Yep. Uh, and not, yeah, well, no, taste the other one, the middle one. Sorry that you can't see what we're tasting here, but it'll become apparent when we talk about it in a minute.
+
+[40:45] This is the S-L-O-O. No, not that one that he said smelled like fish. All right, so while he's tasting that. I did 3 different regimes. One of the oils is a, you know, an actual one that I would
+
+[40:59] use that I actually use to eat on things raw. Uh, it's a, it's, you know, it's an unfiltered olive oil from Sicily, and it's a combination of 3 of my favorite olives, Nochalara de Belici, Cherosola, and Bianco Lilla, uh, comes from a guy named
+
+[41:13] Galufo, uh, in the south of Sicily, and I've been buying his oil for
+
+[41:18] years and I enjoy it. Uh, and that one was labeled uh, roof of raw unfiltered, uh, oil, right? Uh, the one labeled EVOO that uh, Marks that smelled like fish stands for uh, extraviolent overcooked oil. And that's deep frying conditions. So I took it up to just about the smoke point. Um, and and then fried a couple cubes of bread in it. Uh, and then uh, strain it out through a coffee filter. And, uh, to me, all of its all of its olive oilness is pretty much been wiped away. It just tastes, it smells like oil that's been slightly abused. Yeah. right? There's no debris at all, though, which is surprising. And then, and then the middle one, I sauteed some lettuce in very quickly, just to
+
+[42:07] get, just to give an idea. And that one, to me, uh, I mean, it's not great, but it does maintain some
+
+[42:15] oliveness to it. It's about half. Yeah. Pure. Yeah. And that was that, you know, that's if you're doing a very quick kind of a saute and it maintains it. And then I have 2 eggs here. See whether you can see whether you get an olive oilness out of the eggs. We have like fork here. By eating them. That's why there's a fork present. So anyway, so we ran the test here, and I think, you know, McGee is pretty much right. Two things are happening when you overheat an oil. You're damaging the oil and you're giving the off smells, which is where the fish stuff is coming from, and you are driving off a lot of the volatiles. You're getting much of a difference between them. And, uh, the, specifically, she said fry an egg. So I fried an egg. And I use what I always did is I heat up a cast iron skillet till it, till it's, you know, till when I slap the, till when I slap the surface of the skillet with my palm, it feels like it's the right temperature to cook an
+
+[43:06] egg. I then added a small quantity of oil, crack the egg into
+
+[43:10] it, and then, you know, before it fully sets, I turn the pan off and let the heat carry through the pan. That's my typical fry egg technique. I was to guess, I would say, this one had the oil. Was that the one that had the pre-broken egg, yolk? That's the one had Pam. Is it just because the pan was bad or because the olive oil was good? It just had more flavor. in general. I don't think that there was any noticeable
+
+[43:39] advantage one way or the other. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, there you have our 1st on-air test of a listener question on the cooking issues. Here's a related question regarding that. So when I make my tomato sauce. I leave a lot of the oil that I cook the garlic in. Would it be better to fry garlic separately and then add cold oil and heat it up just at 212? Actually, I don't know. Usually when I'm doing garlic, I do two-step. I do garlic and then I always add fresh oil back to it. Yeah, so do I. I think it's actually better to start with a neutral oil and finish with
+
+[44:16] a, like save your money for a good extra virgin oil, use that to finish, and then just do the initial
+
+[44:23] cook in like a grape seed or a canola. Yeah, I mean, at my house, what I have is I have 2 3 liter containers of olive oil. One that is roughly 3 times the cost of the other
+
+[44:34] one, and they're I buy the tins because I use a lot of olive oil, and because they have no, they have 0 light transmission, so they don't go bad very quickly in the tins. And, um, I don't stock a lot of
+
+[44:48] different, um, cooking oils because if I'm going to fry, I deep fry and my deep fryer has, you know, 30, you know, 30 or 40 pounds of oil in
+
+[44:56] it. So I'm not going to buy olive oil for that because that's crazy. I I use I usually use like a neutral vegetable. I tried a bunch of different ones. I like, you know, I used to use a lot of corn, but corn has such a corn flavor that I got so sick of it. I don't like using corn oil anymore unless I'm frying tortillas, in which case it doesn't matter. Um, but the, um, I don't use excessive amounts. And so I'd rather my cheaper olive oil is one that I'm willing to eat. I'm willing to eat it raw if I had to. Uh, but it's, you know, it's not breaking the bank and I use little amounts of it when I'm cooking, so it's easier for me to keep it
+
+[45:31] around. If I was going to do that professionally, I would have a bunch of neutral oils around because it would be a big
+
+[45:35] cost saver if I was doing it all the time. But at home, you know, the space is more important to me for the amount that I, you know,
+
+[45:41] amount that I'm using, it doesn't break my bank. So that's, you know, that's why I don't have anything but olive oil around, you know? Anyway. Uh... Who's who that Red's in? Zach, and Pittsburgh writes in. I'm considering getting a big boy blender for my apartment kitchen. I know you guys like the Vitamix, but the price makes me kind of gun shy. Blendech looks like they make comparable blenders at a lower price. I know you've talked about blenders a time, but would like to hear some more. The show continues to be great. I just wish Dave wouldn't yell into the mic so much and blast the levels. Keep up the good work, Zack in Pittsburgh. Stas, Stas loves anytime someone insults me. In fact, she's doing the she's doing the yay pound in the air with it. Yeah, I'm not though. You got to get close to that mic. Well, you know, keep the levels good. All right, all right, all right. getting conflicting information. Apparently. Well, screaming and staying close to the mic are 2 separate things. Which is better, screaming or staying close to the mic. Sting close to the mic. All right. So here's my feeling. I've never seen an inexpensively priced blend tech blender. I've used their expensive one, the one that goes in jamba. Jamba, Jamba juice. And of course, I've used the Vita Prep, and it's the power of the blenders is both good. But Vita Prep is just a far better blender in terms of the controls and how I like to use them.
+
+[46:58] Um, I mean, I've talked before in the air that Vita Prep. I have some issues with their old pitcher style. I think their newer pitchers are probably better. Uh, but, you know, I don't see chefs using a lot of any other kind of blender, which leaves me to believe that no one's had that good
+
+[47:12] a luck with any other kind of blender. Now, Stas and Piper here have said that they've heard good things about the ninja, but I've never seen a ninja in a professional kitchen. I mean, blender, ninja blender. Ninjas that scene. You've never seen ninja. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen a ninja. Have I ever told that, have I told that story on air about, when I was at, when I was at Kenny Kanuya? All right. they're going to get me off this. They're going to get me off the air in a minute. So, like, Mark, is anything else you want to say about it? No, no, I'm fine. Thank you. Uh, and with some sticks on Saturday. Please do. And you'll be you'll actually be there, so you get to you get to talk to Mark, you
+
+[47:51] know. be fascinating, I assure you. Mark, one of our beta testers for the Sears all unit, by the way. You still having any good luck with that or no good luck? Yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, nice. All right. Thanks, Piper, for coming on. But I'll tell you a little story that I may or may not get in trouble for about ninjas. So I was going to Kina Canuya, which is like the awesome bookstore in New York City for Japanese
+
+[48:11] books. It's incredibly expensive because I think that even if it's an American book, they must ship it from Japan over
+
+[48:17] here, because it's really expensive over there. And my son, Booker, you know, who, uh, is awesome, but, you know, sometimes we'll say things he shouldn't, like, screams and
+
+[48:25] Kenny, Kenny, why is it so expensive here? These deals are not good. I'm like, shut up. Shut up. So anyway. So Rankina Canuya, because they have a Zaya upstairs, and Zaya is like a kind of like a Japanese cafe. We have here in New York, and they make, actually, I love their own agiri, the little rice squares with the Nori, because their Nori is hermetically wrapped and placed around the rice square. So you pull the plastic off at the last minute and the Nori is always really, really crunchy. And so, so, Booker is obsessed with Ziazone Nigiri. So we're there. And Dax's, the other son, Dax, like little, her best friend's little, little sister, we're sitting in Zaya, and some women walk in, you know, wearing, um, not Burka, but the
+
+[49:09] other, the other kind of Islamic dress that, where it's just the eyes are, just the eyes are visible, and, you know, they're wearing full face cover. And Dax's, Dax's friend, Amaya, looks over, whispers in her mom's ear, look, mom, ninjas. cooking issues.
+
+[49:32] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at HeritageRadio Network
+
+[49:53] or HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a
+
+[49:59] member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening, listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills.
+
+[0:15] It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else, Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Do you want to learn cutting edge cooking techniques? You could buy modernist cuisine, or you can save yourself $450 and check out our new free website,
+
+[0:42] chefsteps.com. You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org, a nonprofit member supported radio station. We're 1000000 strong, with folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education. We are entertainment. We are the future of food. May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us. and enjoy the show. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:46] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Bert's Pizzeria in the back of... Well, no, come meet you from Roberta's Pizzeria, actually. Not in the back of anything. We are in the back of Roberta Petrito in Bushwick, Brooklyn, back from Senegal today. Sorry, I wasn't able to do it last week live from Senegal, but you know how sometimes these things work. We are down 2 of our crew members today. Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, is in Philadelphia, attending a conference by our good friends, David Michaels,
+
+[2:23] flavors and food chemistry folks down in Philadelphia, and they're hosting a food innovation seminar today, and Nastasia is there.
+
+[2:30] Also, Jack is MIA today, but we do have Joe, thank goodness. Hey, Joe. How's it going Dave? Doing well. And we are joined in the studio. I think by the 1st time ever, maybe in the studio with Peter Kim. Yo, what's up, yo? How? So Peter Kim is what's your title over there? Executive director. Really? Yeah. Okay. Is the executive director? noticed, Dave. I know, I know. Peter came as the executive director of the Museum of Food and Drink, which is a 501c3,
+
+[3:00] when do we get our status there? You got it last September. Right. And we, oh, yes, I'm the founder. I also have, what's my other title here? You're also the president. Well, founder and also the president. Like Harry Clue, right. Yeah. Mass, great. And you want to give him the mission? I sure you have it memorized. Our mission is to change the way people think about food and inspire day-to-day curiosity about what we eat and why. Yeah. And, you know, just, and I'm sure I've already spouted this a 1000000 times, but why do we need a brick and water museum devoted to this?
+
+[3:28] Because you can't eat food in a book? And, uh, you know, watching TV is always unsatisfying. You just see people eating food, but at a museum, you could actually be tasting things as you learn about it. Right. So in this museum, it's not going to be as someone once asked me,
+
+[3:42] you know, a long time ago, are we just going to be looking at, you know, shellacked pieces of bread or some sort of plastic sushi or stuff like that. Is that we're going to be looking at here? No moldy sandwiches and, you know, little boxes. This is going to be like, I mean, sometimes I describe it like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, but with an educational focus. Right, right. And, you know, and and why have most other food museums in this concept? Why do you find them lacking? Why are they lacking? I think 2 things really. One is that they often have too broad of a focus. And so they try to cover everything in food and drink, which, you know, as you
+
+[4:14] know, really well, that covers that covers a lot of ground. And so MoFed will be actually focusing on very specific topics instead. And the other is, I think, you know, a lot of a lot of food museums really end up being corporate sales, and that's something we're really not going to be. Sweet. So, you know, it's good to hear good to hear these words out of out of Peter's mouth. We hope to have this museum in an actual brick and mortar location in how many years. Around 5 years. Yeah. Five years. It takes time to build a museum. It turns out it does take time to build a museum. In fact, you know, most museums start with a large donation of money. or a large donation of a collection, right? So they start with that kind of that kind of a nut. The, uh, the genesis of this museum simply is an idea. But I think, uh, you know, the great part about this idea is that, uh, a lot of people like the subject. And so we're hoping to, we're going to be going to be pestering and soliciting for the museum more and more as time goes on. Just wanted our listeners to know that the project is still
+
+[5:21] going, great guns slamming forward, not in a way that people outside might see, but that there is
+
+[5:28] actually a lot of work going on. And hopefully, you know, can't talk about it much right now, but hopefully good news in three,
+
+[5:34] 4 months maybe. Possible. Fingers cross. And if it's not good news in 3 and 4 months, I'll tell you what the bad news is that it wasn't good news. figure out what our next steps are. But the other reason I have Peter in the studio today is because I just got back from Africa, and since Nastasia can't be here, I
+
+[5:48] wanted to talk a little bit later about my trip to Africa, and Peter's a good choice because he was also a volunteer in the Peace Corps in Cameroon, correct? That's right, almost 2.5 years there. Yep, yep. And interestingly, if we have time, I don't know if we will, because, of course, I'm horribly late. Uh, we'll get in also to uh, Peter's experimentation with uh,
+
+[6:05] cot over on the in the east of Africa, right? I don't know what you're talking about, Dave. Yeah, it's legal over there. Right? I mean, I don't think you're going to get prosted. I think you can get, Peter, aside, aside from being the executive director of the museum of food and drink and an accomplished Spanish style guitar player, as a lawyer. And so, you know, probably shouldn't cop to illegal drug use
+
+[6:28] in uh, in this country. And, you know, I guess technically, if it's a schedule one narcotic, you're not allowed to consume it in any country. Is that true? I'm not sure how it works Well, maybe you could talk about the experiences of some guy named Meter Mim that you were sitting next
+
+[6:43] to in... Yeah, Keter Pim in East Africa later to discuss it. Because I think it's an interesting, um, It's an interesting story and we'll get into it later. Anyway, should you have questions? Feel free to call them in too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, 1st question in from William about milk. My cousin had an interesting question on her faith on her Facebook page. She's come across whole milk being sold for $1.59 a gallon at her local store. That's crazy. Milk should not cost $one.59 a gallon. You know what I mean? insane. I mean like, I mean, it shouldn't happen. It's got to mean, like, I hope, I hope the store's losing a lot of money that they haven't figured out a way to, you know, screw the system into people making it in the cows so hard that the milk is actually only worth
+
+[7:26] $1.59 a gallon. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe someone like mislabeled it. I've done that. Like, I walked into a store once and Passionfruit were labeled per pound instead of per each. This was back when I was, you know, just graduated from college. had no money. And so I bought every passion fruit in the store for like an unbelievably low
+
+[7:47] price and the person I was like, it says so on the price, you have to honor the price, you put on the thing, and they did. I was even more of a jerk than I am now. I should have just purchased 2 passion fruit at that price and then let them recoup their mistake. But instead I bought... It's not me. I bought every passion fruit in the store. I was like, it doesn't say limit. I was a real jerk. But you know, when you're, when you have no money and you, and you love things. Like it's, you know, you feel more of a justification for jerking people around like that. And you taught them a valuable lesson in precision with their pricing. I did. I'm sure they didn't give a crap. Oh, that was a stop and shot back in New Haven. Oh boy. Going back to the super. Yeah, I haven't been back to the superstop and shop in New Haven in a bazillion years, and I don't think I will. No? You a shopping stop? I've never, no, no. No? No, no, really. Okay, question was, are there any drawbacks to freezing whole milk? Well, the texture, consistency or taste be adversely affected? I would think since it has much less milk fat than cream that the ice crystals wouldn't affect it so much. Thanks. Can't wait till the Kickstarter Torch is available. Neither can I, actually. But we're working on that as well. So it's an interesting question, William. Now, there are a lot of studies out there. What happens? I haven't tasted. I didn't have time to actually do the test and see whether you could do tasting. What happens is that the, um, the, uh, fat globules in homogenized milk are altered by the freezing process.
+
+[9:17] And so it's possible that you will get different. And in fact, there are some studies. I didn't have time to sift through them all. There's a bunch of studies out there on this, but a lot of them are older, so I couldn't get the full text of them. in the database that I was searching, so I couldn't get the actual nitty-gritty of it. But, yeah, so when you freeze, especially if you're going through multiple free saw cycles, which is going to happen unless something's totally frozen, so it depends on how much of abuse you get in the fridge, you're going to alter the fact
+
+[9:42] lobule size. Now, if you alter the fact lobule size, you will alter mouthfeel, and you will alter, you know, possibly, you know, how it works, or whether it's going to, you know, the fat's going to agglomerate more when you when you heat it, I would think that it's going to be relatively small effect, you know, when you're using the milk in
+
+[10:03] cooking situations where curdling might not be a problem, and it might not even have an effect in a curdling situation. But yes, technically it is affected. And although I apologize that I don't have more information on that, I came across, and this is one of the reasons I'm actually late, is because when I'm researching something, I,
+
+[10:23] in just like in my real life, when I'm researching things, I go off on tangents and found a very interesting tangent, um, it's actually going to tie in later, we have a question about
+
+[10:32] pregnancy in eating later. But, um, there was a study on freeze, freezing and thawing human breast milk. And this is actually very important because, um, um, you know, most mothers who breastfeed, um, also, at least that I have met, you know, will
+
+[10:50] also um, express some of their breast milk and freeze it for later use. This way, if they're at work, you know, uh, caregiver can, uh, feed the actual breast milk to the
+
+[11:02] child, or uh, an alternate thing is that, you know, the mom then can sleep a little bit longer at night and the dad can wake up in the middle of the night and feed, uh, the already express breast milk, you know, natural breast milk to the
+
+[11:16] baby, right? So, and, you know, you can either refrigerate the milk or you can freeze it.
+
+[11:22] Now, uh, so the question is, does freezing the breast milk do anything bad to the milk? Uh,
+
+[11:30] and, and, oh, this is also important in other countries, actually, because uh, there's a thing called a human milk banks. And in a human milk bank, you know, mothers who are lactating, continue to lactate and express milk and then donate it to donate it to hospitals so that, um, you know,
+
+[11:47] um, babies that are born early, let's say, and maybe the, the, the mother's milk doesn't come in right away, they can feed this, you know, actual human milk to babies
+
+[11:56] that couldn't otherwise have, which is a great idea, right? Fantastic idea. Right. But you have to freeze it to preserve it. Okay, so what happens? Well, it turns out that aside from the structure of the fat, you know, changing, like I said, I said it would, the actual fat
+
+[12:12] level in the milk as it's fed to the babies decreases substantially on freezing.
+
+[12:17] And along with that, the protein available in the milk decreases, not as much as the fat. The fat can decrease significantly. Uh, you know, but the the protein in it as well can decrease. And the theory is this, that on freezing the fat globules agglomerate, when they
+
+[12:34] agglomerate, um, you know, they're not as well dispersed in the liquid phase on thawing, right? The fat preferentially sticks to the relatively hydrophobic walls of the plastic vessels that breast milk is invariably stored in,
+
+[12:53] they didn't test glass because it's not usually stored in glass, right? So the fat, the fat sticks predominantly to the side things. And so the remaining liquid is relatively depleted in fat, and that some of the proteins also are bound in with the
+
+[13:10] fat and adhere to the fat layer, and so you're also somewhat reduced in the protein levels as a result. And turns out that it's statistically significant. Interesting right? Yeah. So, there you have it. I mean, I don't know really what to make of that. The name of the study, should you choose to look at it. is, and my iPad decided that I should no longer be able to read, so it turned off on a second. is it's in the magazine, early human development. It's called analysis of the influence of, oh, they also tested pasteurization, but I didn't read that section as much, passportation of it. Freezing, thawing, and other processes on human milks, macronutrient, concentrations by Viera at all in 2011. Oh, yeah, here's a reason not to pasteurize. I did read a little bit. A reason, a reason not to pasteurize human breast milk, is that it inactivates the bio salt stimulated lipace, which is greatly responsible for the digestion and absorption of fat in newborn
+
+[14:07] infants. So patriation decreases the maximum utilization of the delivered human milk. That's basically a direct quote. So anyway there you have it. Yeah, regardless of what you do. It's probably better than powdered milk. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying that, you know, uh, and it's not saying that you that you're not getting, you know, all the benefits. It's just that there's, you know, there's not going to be quite as nutritive in terms of
+
+[14:29] that point. Anyway, I thought it was interesting. But here's another interesting thing I researched as was, I'll tell you, tangents, right? So recently, here's my story about that I've always had for years, and I've never gone back and done the hardcore research, which is, of course, what you should always do before
+
+[14:43] you make a statement. People say, well, should I consume breast milk? Make sure I have food, shake, and some breast milk. Should I consume alcohol while I'm lactating, right? That's a question a lot of people ask. And my, you know, kind of pat response has been, well, look, you figure that, uh, human milk, although it has fat, is mostly water, you know,
+
+[15:01] vastly, mostly water. And therefore, you would assume that the alcohol content of breast milk is relatively similar to the mother's blood alcohol level, blood alcohol level, let's say, you know, they
+
+[15:13] were, you know, on the limit there. 0.05%, right? So assuming that the blood, that the milk has a roughly similar alcohol concentration of 0.05% alcohol. In my mind, from a, from an actual ethanol level concentration, that's roughly zero. 0.5%. That would mean 50 milligrams per milligrams per 100 milliliters, as opposed to uh, a glass of wine, which is, uh, you know,
+
+[15:46] like, let's say it's 12% alcohol, that's, um, 12,000 milligrams per, uh, you know, per milliliter, right?
+
+[15:55] So roughly 0 we're talking about. 12,000 milligrams? No. No, sorry. 120,000 milligrams. Yeah. So 35, you know, milligrams would be roughly 0. Right. Okay. So, it turns out, I might be wrong. So tip the bottle. Yeah. So, well, no, no, so here's the story, right? It's what is true is that human breast milk does roughly correlate with blood alcohol level,
+
+[16:21] right? And so that for a woman that consumes roughly three, you know, 35, you know, 3 or
+
+[16:29] so, a little more, a little less, grams of alcohol per kilogram of body weight, right? Is that true? Anyway, it gets a blood alcohol level of like .3. Your milk will be roughly .3.35 somewhere in there, right? Percent. So the, so the deal, the deal is, is that that was right, what I said. However, it turns out that there's a study that was published in 2000 that shows that that small amount of alcohol in the breast milk can actually have an
+
+[17:00] effect. What they studied was sleep, the sleep patterns of babies. And so that were fed. And the study was they had mothers, uh, and they expressed breast milk, you know, with a medella. And then over the course of 2 different testing days, they either took that milk and added 35 milligrams per 100 ML of alcohol to the breast
+
+[17:22] milk bottle or didn't. And it turned out that the ones that they fed the, um, alcohol too, did not sleep as well and didn't have as much activity during their waking hours as the ones that
+
+[17:37] didn't. So, you know, it's only one study. I haven't seen it replicated since 2000. I don't know whether the information is still there, but it's interesting to note that that's out there, right? Anyway. All right. So, uh, Alex from Toronto rides in Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe, Indie Jesus, Carlos. going back. And whoever might be working in the booth now. I'm still catching up on back podcast. I was finally prompted to write in because of Dave's story about the person rapping out loud in episode 83. So I was talking about how, you know, people are rapping out loud and how they suck. That was what I was talking about. Anyway, Alex Wright said, my wife and I recently visited New York and probably the strangest thing about our trip was how many people we saw singing as they
+
+[18:21] walked the streets or waited for subway trains. Nearly all of them had earphones in and seem to be singing along with recordings, but we're also clearly practicing rather than just casually singing along. We wondered if this was some kind of special New York thing, the Broadway equivalent of LA waiters hoping to be discovered by an agent or director. Judging by your reaction to the rapper. Apparently not, but we saw at least a dozen people doing this on our 4 day visit. Our favorite was a girl practicing her ballet moves in the subway, totally unself-consciously waiting for a train. weird. Yes, it is weird, and it is quite common here, and I don't know what the hell it is. You know what I think it is? I think it's set, when you live here, 1st of all, I remember years ago, and I might have mentioned this in the other episode,
+
+[18:57] like, I was learning to try and play bagpipes, and they told me, just go outside and play because, just, you know, because what else are you going to do? You live in New York. You know what I mean? So there's the fact that you can't practice anything in private New York. There's no private place in New York. You can do anything. You have an apartment. You probably have a family or roommate there. Uh, you know, you don't have a basement. You don't have a garage. You don't have a backyard. Uh, what the hell are you gonna do? You know? If you're gonna play bagpipes, you know, what are you gonna do? It's like, there's no real choices, you know what I mean? And so same thing goes with bad rapping or bad singing or any of that
+
+[19:28] stuff is that since you have no place to do it. You go outside and you do it. And furthermore, I think they're, like, living in such a big, busy city, uh, strangely dehumanizes all the people around you and they become like trees or
+
+[19:40] shrubs. You tend to stop thinking of them as people, and then so you're not embarrassed about singing in front of them because they're not human beings to you.
+
+[19:45] Are you positing that there's a correlation between population density and bad public rapping? Possibly. Possibly. Yes. I also think that everybody is just crazy here too. Like there's a lot of crazy going on in New York City. Do you think there's more crazy than normal or it's just like, like you see it more because you see more people every day? I think that's, I think that there's just so many people around. There's just got to be more crazies. Right, right. And like I say, like, you know, we have our, we have our kind of, you know, zone out blinders on when you're walking around the
+
+[20:14] city and so, you know, you tend to just view everyone as this kind of like a blur, you
+
+[20:18] know? Anyway. Uh, so, uh, anyway, uh, they went to New
+
+[20:24] York and uh, and, and they made it back. here's the story. When we got back from our trip to New York, we found that after 3 years of trying, we are expecting a baby, which is nice. So New York did the deal. The calendar doesn't quite back this up, but I give partial credit to the Bangkok daiquiri and son of a peach that we drank at Booker and
+
+[20:41] Dax bar. Good times. Well, thanks. Thanks. You know, I'll take that. I'll take that credit Uh, you know, we're, we're the, I mean, I wouldn't say that we're, nah, I'm not going to go into it. Okay. We don't seem to have anything like the awesome New York bar scene here in Toronto, but perhaps I'm just unaware of the best stuff. Dave Chang just opened 3 restaurants in Toronto. Any plans to expand the Booker and Dax Empire. I let's put it this way. I don't know. Won't say no? I won't say yes. Okay. Very ominous. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I hope it's not ominous. I hope if we do it, it's good thing. It's not like, you know, the evil empire coming in. I mean, maybe it is. I don't know. That be awesome. I wish I had some sort of like evil, evil emperor vibe that I could bring to whatever I, you know what I mean? Someday. That's my goal now. That's my new goal. Evil empire vibe. Okay. But I guess it's time for some cooking questions. Now that the wife is up the spout, she is no longer able to enjoy her favorite drinks. By the way, that's a phrase, and I pride myself on kind of being well versed in slang and idiom. I mean, it's kind of, you know, I do. I never heard that before. You heard that before? Up the spout is a British informal, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. For one, broken. i.e. no longer working, which hopefully is that's now what we mean in the case, or, uh,
+
+[21:49] two, of a woman pregnant. But according to this, if possibly related to the other thing, like somehow you're broken by getting pregnant, because I think it was maybe an unwanted pregnancy in the past, clearly not in this
+
+[22:00] case, and it's lost that meaning. And third, if you pawn your stuff off, you can say it's gone up the spout. I'm not even going to try to start analyzing that one. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. But an interesting phrase, and I like it when anyone gives me a phrase that I'm not familiar with. Okay. Or I should say, which I'm not familiar. Okay. She usually drinks white wine and Caesars. Caesar's possibly a Canada specific drink. Basically, it's a bloody Mary with clam juice. No, that's a drink, also known as Bloody Caesar or a clam digger or a bunch of other things. Clam digger is the one I normally hear it by. You know, it's Clemato, which I love saying that word. Clemato. It's not clemato, though. Like, it's tomato, tomato is fine, but it's not clemato juice. That just sounds weird. Clemato. Yeah. With the accent. Yeah. Yes, yes. I won't do it again. Okay. Dave just put a monocle on while you said that. I wish. We all know that the Mr. Peanut with the monocle is one of the most dashing figures in all of, in all
+
+[22:55] of, uh, whatever those people are called, spokes, spokes characters. Right? I mean, like Joe, what do you think about that? You like the Mr. Peanut with Monaco? Simply dashing. Yeah, yeah, it was amazing. You know, I was talking about this with labor, who's the design, the our graphic design team for the museum. And they took a freaking peanut, which is, it's a ridiculous looking thing. You know what I mean, a peanut. It's like, it's like if you squeeze the hell out of a golf ball and like colored it beige and made it dirty. That's a peanut. You're like, put a pop hat. Give it a monocle, and all of a sudden it's like... Classy. amazing. And on the far end of the spectrum, I think, on that very same conversation was Grimace, who is the opposite of classy.
+
+[23:41] There's no class in grimace. Grimace and nobody knows what the heck grimace is. Now, listen, by the way, I don't want to get any negative calls here. We're not hating on grimace. He's not classy. Just not classy. Yeah, he's he's like the he is like kind of prototypical schlub. I mean, I am also a prototype prototypical slub, so not hating. Nah, all right. Yeah, no hate. No hate on the grimace. not classy. Okay. Okay. She usually drinks white wine and Caesars. I finished whipping up a batch. So by the way, if she's not going to drink alcoholic drinks and she likes Bloody Mary's of those kinds of things, that's terrific because they don't have that much of a perception of alcohol.
+
+[24:18] So like the hardest drinks to, uh, to, you know, master are the ones that are heavily alcohol flavored, like bourbon drinks or things
+
+[24:25] like that. So, you know, if she likes things that are, um, if she likes things like that, that are relatively strong flavored, you know, you could easily make, uh, you know,
+
+[24:34] a, a virgin version of that. If you're gonna use any sort of fresh clam product, obviously you pasteurize the shit, pressurize the hell out of it, you don't want to get, you know, anyone sick, but the clamato juice that they sell has been, you know, heat
+
+[24:48] pasteurize, and so it's okay. you know, so you can use it. So, I mean, that'd be an ideal. The white wine, obviously, you can't, you know, drink the white wine, but you could do any sort of, um, uh, you know, acidic, uh, product. Some people say like white cranberry juice. It's altered with a bunch of different things. I mean, I think the key thing, continue reading the question maybe, right? He says, I've just finished whipping up a batch of your coriander syrup recipe, which is very tasty with the one I use for the coriander old
+
+[25:15] fashions. But I was wondering if you suggest either some other recipes or somewhere to start looking for serious
+
+[25:19] drinks, which happen to contain no alcohol and are easy to make at home. I tried making a peach sipping vinegar based on recipes for other fruits that I found online, but that was a bust. It just tasted gross. Any thoughts? I'm hoping to find something with enough complexity that will make it satisfying to sip for a long time. And I think that's the key, by the way, is the sipping for a long
+
+[25:38] time because that's what, uh, you know, kind of separates, uh, uh, an alcoholic
+
+[25:43] drank, that you don't pound too hard, at least you're not supposed to. I mean, I might, but you're not supposed to. versus, you know, uh, uh, you know, like a thirst quenching drink. Now, on the one hand, the reason why coriander, the coriander syrup, especially if you make it spicier, if you increase the spice level of a drink or the kind
+
+[25:59] of spice impact of the drink, it tends to shift towards a more sipping drink, right? So that's why the coriander syrup, which is more akin to, like take ginger ale, right? I love ginger ale. You don't pound ginger ale as hard as you pound Sprite, right? I don't pound Sprite either. Well, let's say you were going to. You know what I mean? You don't pound it as hard as you pound seltzer. Right? You don't pound ginger beer as hard as you pound ginger ale. Right. Right. So, uh, ginger beer, good candidate for uh, non-alcoholic drinks that you can sip for a while because you
+
+[26:35] were going to take it in small doses, but the other key is, is that you can't do that by making something that you, the reason you're taking small doses is that you don't want to drink it. Right? Which is why ginger beer is such a good candidate. Uh, and, you know, if, you know, properly done, uh, the coriander syrup, uh,
+
+[26:52] without, with, uh, with, um, making it into a soda, with, like, some lime is a good candidate because it stays good tasting, but you take it in small
+
+[26:59] doses. You're not like, bang, knocking it back. Um, so, you know, you could do that. Um, the, but the other thing is, uh, I think you, you know, it's very difficult. having tried to do this for, you know, my wife, you can make special drinks. The other thing you can do to make drinks more sippable, and I hesitate to do this because I don't like these kinds of drinks myself, but is to make them physically thick.
+
+[27:26] So drinks that contain purees, tend
+
+[27:31] to go down slower, but if you like them at all tend to be enjoyable.
+
+[27:35] And it's especially good in the summer months as they come up. So you can do like frozen things, things like smoothies, and, you know, she'll feel good about the theoretical health benefits that she's getting from
+
+[27:47] them. And uh, and also uh, be sipping them uh, slowly. So I hope this is somewhat helpful. What do you think, Peter? Did you have any Besop while you're in Senegal, Dave? I had a whole boatload of, uh, of, uh, BSAP. That is one of my favorite summer refreshing beverages, and I'm wondering whether if you concentrated those flavors that could become something more sipable. Oh, yeah. Bisop is a good point. Bisop is known by a bunch of different names. Roselle, red sorrel, not to be confused with wood sorrel or the herb sorrel. It's hibiscus flour. And, uh, you know, it's used in Africa where it's native. It's used a lot in the Caribbean and Mexico, where it's naturalized,
+
+[28:26] uh, and uh, makes a fantastic uh, beverage. The Biss app that I had in Africa was of higher quality than the dried stuff that I get here.
+
+[28:36] Uh, but I have used the stuff here and it's good. You make like, you make a tea. They actually make it delicious also. They make a delicious bisop jelly in West Africa, at least in Senegal. And it's amazing because it has the texture of apple butter, but with that really tart acidic fruity thing. So I think Bisop would be great. Make a tea out of it, sweeten it. Uh, and then, uh, actually, Bisop and Ginger works. and also bisop and mint works. Or all three. Yeah, or all 3 together. And so like a combination of mint, uh, bisop and ginger could make a really great, um, um, drink that could go on
+
+[29:10] the sipping. If you make it a little bit weaker, then it's a pounder. And if you make it a little bit, you know, heavier in flavor, then it's more of a
+
+[29:17] sipper, but the great thing about it is, is that if you're a fan of the flavor, which I am, you don't tire of it when you're drinking
+
+[29:23] it. You know, you can drink, you can drink a good bit of it. Good call, Peter. Good call. All right. My other question is about coffee. I did not have an espresso machine, I would not be able to justify the expense of buying any new equipment, but would love to be able to make phone milk for
+
+[29:38] our weekend coffee. I've tried to look for solutions on coffee geek and various other websites, but I've had no luck. I did find a video where someone seemed to be able to make a decent phone with the little wands you can buy at IKEA, but I've been unable to replicate this
+
+[29:48] either with the identical gadget or by the slightly more expensive one the Cooks Illustrator recommends. What am I missing? Is steam an essential part of the process? Am I not getting the right temperature or just using the wrong vessel to hold the milk? Is there a stabilizer that might help? I seem to be able to get a good foam when the milk is cold, but I can't seem to heat the milk up to even moderately drinkable temperatures like 60 Celsius and keep the
+
+[30:08] foam or to foam the milk at higher temperatures. The coffee geeks just laugh at me and say, I am SOL. Any ideas? Uh, yeah, I think you're SL. But here's the issue. Like many things. By the way, you know, Alex has another question on coffee makers, but I'm
+
+[30:28] going to have to put that one off till next time. But the, the, the, the deal is this. Um, so the coffee coffee geek was one of the early websites that introduced, uh, I mean, so, you know, those of you that have been making coffee for a while, uh, you know, no, that's like
+
+[30:45] the latte art movement kind of that came out of Seattle in the late 90s, I guess,
+
+[30:50] 1990s. Is that right? I mean, it's hard for me to look back. You know, David Schomer from Vivace was the 1st person I knew about who, you know, was widely talking about it and I bought his book, but, you know, with whatever it's called, professional barisa techniques, whatever, where
+
+[31:02] it explains it. And, you know, amazing stuff. But to get that, you know, by the way, latte art, everyone knows what I'm talking about here, latte art, the pictures that you make by, you know, doing the milk, and the highest form of it, you don't even touch the cup at all. just how you pour the milk makes it. But in order to do it, you need a very specific texture of milk, right? Now the theory is that that texture of milk is also the most delicious texture of milk, but it's called a
+
+[31:23] microfoam. And so there's a lot written in coffee geek about how to achieve microfoam. And that particular type of microphone is produced by steaming, right? And trying to create that in any other way. I mean, you might be able to come up. I mean, or I might be, or you might be, someone might be able to come up with it with a similar textured product by doing a host of other things to it, but there's no simple way,
+
+[31:49] right? Now, here's the question. Is that the best tasting foam? I don't know. It's a taste of foam? Is espresso the best taste of coffee? I think it is, but other people like other forms of coffee making. So what I would do is stop trying to make latte art style foam in any other technique, and just find a foaming technique that you
+
+[32:09] like, that makes a taste that you like. You know, you're, I have very severe doubts that you're going to be able to, without a lot of experimentation, and we could stabilize
+
+[32:18] it and whip it. But, you know, the microfoam is a very specific, very dense bubble
+
+[32:24] sized, very wet foam and, you know, right? I mean, you know, and just because you're different, just because you can get a different result doesn't mean it's necessarily worse, you're just going to have to use it in a different way. But I will think more about it and maybe talk about it more when I talk about your coffee coffee maker question later. Uh, John Riper came in and he, uh, last week, unfortunately, I wasn't here. I was in Senegal, and he gave us some really interesting hazelnuts.
+
+[32:51] So I was reading a little quick things. So hazelnuts, we all know hazelnuts, a little around it, but they're not all around. There's a variety called the Duchili hazelnut that is long, almost looks almondy, and looks like woody on the outside. So John dropped by some, these are like, these are like super, like, old cultivar heritage, heirloom variety of hazelnuts. And he dropped by some roasted ones and unroasted ones and was talking about
+
+[33:16] the what happens to the development of flavor in hazelnuts as they're roasted. So since I just got back yesterday, I tasted them, but I haven't had time to do a lot of experimenting. So next week, John, I'm going to go more into about these different
+
+[33:28] things, but you guys should take a look at these do chili hazelnuts. They're supposed to have a thinner skin and therefore be less bitter than their
+
+[33:36] smaller rounder brethren. But they're susceptible to certain diseases and that's why they're not grown much. If you want to research it, well, before I can get back to you guys, Go to Homequist, uh, orchards where they grow them in uh, in Washington. Okay. Um, Robin writes in about meat grinders. Dave please say some words about meat grinders. I'm primarily using a meat grinder for making dog foods from chicken, turkey, and rabbit parts. So I need something powerful enough to not bog down grinding soft
+
+[34:04] bones, and with a fill hole that will accommodate something as large as a chicken leg without me having to further invest in a meat
+
+[34:10] cleaver to cut off the parts so they're small enough to fit in a chute. I made the mistake of purchasing an LEM number 5.2 horsepower motor grinder sold by your local sporting goods big box store. It is underpowered. It is underpowered. The fuse had to be reset frequently, even though I'm not forcing the meat through, and it is overheating and smoking. It requires disassembly to unjam it and was a waste of money. It's going back to the store tomorrow without breaking the bank. What do you recommend? It will serve me well. Thanks for the brilliant radio show. All y'all. Robin. Okay, here's the deal. So, Peter, you might be asking yourself, why would they want to groan the grind the bones? I am asking myself that. Very question. Like, remember, they're making dog food. So the thing is, dogs, calcium, suppose. There's a movement called the barf diet, which the acronym can mean different things, but like bones and raw
+
+[34:56] food diet for dogs, and you grind up the bones whole, so the dog's taking the whole thing. Cats also. have to be careful not to do, not to do it with cooked bones because cooked bones are very sharp and can damage the insides
+
+[35:09] of the, of, you know, your animal. And then there's the debate of whether or not there's microbial problems due in raw food diet when you feed it to an animal. blah, blah, blah. I not getting into that. We getting into weather and grunt. Now I've never thought about this problem. But I did some, I did some research. Turns out that the LEM that you looked at, that you had, the LEM, number five, quarter horsepower one, which sells on Amazon for 196.99,
+
+[35:31] has a quarter horsepower, power motor, is pretty small motor. The good news about that grinder that you have that you hate is that the gears are all metal and so they're really tough and it's all stainless. So all that's really tough, but that motor is underpowered. And so it's going to jam overheat and the fuse will blow as, or it's not really probably the fuse. It probably the thermal overload in it. So that's probably what's happening. So the solution to that is they do make a larger motor one. Uh, they make a .375 horsepower, which is only $70 more, $267 you can go
+
+[36:07] get, and that might be a solution. I've heard other people say that that one grinds chicken bones better. Uh, you know, then you, like, you know, if you, without breaking the bank, that's the problem. The larger ones can do it. So the Weston, uh, the Weston number 22 professional on the Amazon for $551.
+
+[36:24] Everyone says that grinds through chicken like nobody's business, right? But, you know, that's well over twice, almost 3 times the cost of the one
+
+[36:34] that you had. If you go on the, on, uh, still on eBay now, if you look at the STX
+
+[36:39] Turbo4 3000 series. You like that? STX Turbo Force 3000. They say it's 150 bucks. They say that it is 3000 watts. And they admit, if you look at, it's really interesting, actually, if you look at the things, the thing with motors of all types, is people, you have to ask someone how they rate it. So I'm assuming that when LEM is rating their motors, they're actually talking shaft horsepower, power at the shaft, right? Which is different from the input power into the machine, right? Because motors aren't 100% efficient. it's a question of how you do it. 740 something watts is one horsepower, right? So these guys say that the STX Turbo 4 is 3000 is 3000 watt, but that's a load of malarkey. That's the motor, as my dad would always say, that's the motor, like, as it's about to explode from burning out,
+
+[37:25] like, when you're holding the shaft and plugging it in and drawing all the current that you possibly can and everything's blowing up and dying,
+
+[37:31] right? Uh, or peak impulse death powers. He calls it. I'm imagining back to the future doc, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, exactly. So in reality, this 3000 watt monstrosity is actually closer to 3 quarters of a horsepower in real life. But that's still significantly more powerful than the one you have. It has some plastic gears, but they claim that these plastic gears don't break. It does have a guarantee. It also has something you might be interested in called a reverse switch so that you can reverse the machinery to unjam it without disassembling it.
+
+[38:04] So if you do jam it, there you go. Now, there are a number of people on the reviewing thing that say they have ground chicken bones, and then there's a number of people who call BS on that and
+
+[38:13] say, sucker doesn't grind chicken bones that well, right? So what those guys say is that to really grind chicken bones, you got to freeze debone your thighs or legs, freeze the thighs, break them with a
+
+[38:24] hammer, and then grind them in, which is what they say to do. But clearly you don't want to do this because you don't want to cleave it up, you say, with a meat cleaver. So, you know, I'm not sure where to go with that. But it is on Amazon. It does have a return policy, so you might be able to, you know, test your luck and it is even cheaper than the one you already had. Uh, okay. Uh, Alex, uh, wrote in, uh, different Alex, wrote in with questions about uh, mocha pots. You know mocha pots, Peter? Yeah, you know, the ones that you put on the stove and they're little, they're like made out of aluminum usually and they make coffee. Actually, you know, I used to use them. Again, they're not espresso. People make that mistake. Mocha cup is its own kind of cup. It's not an espresso. So Alex has questions on the mocha process, but I think what I'm going to do, Alex, is fold your question on mocha pots into the other question on coffee that the other Alex asked, and we'll talk about
+
+[39:14] them both on the next show, since apparently my time here is drawing nigh, right?
+
+[39:18] Right? Okay. So to quickly to rip through. Got some Twitter questions in. Elliot Papinau rides in. Any problems with infusing chopped hazelnuts? It's a hazelnut show. It always happens, man. Chopped hazelnuts into cream with an ISI. I mean, I don't know how much of a flavor your impact you're going to get off of just infusion without heat in ISI because nuts aren't that porous. Usually you do a heat infusion or better yet, grind them and make like a nut milk. That's the way I would do it. grind and make a nut milk and then strain the stuff out. I think that's the best way you're going to go. I dont know that ISI is going to be the technique to use with that. But, of course, I'm probably wrong, as I usually am. Terry Tinton writes in, hey, have you ever tried creating your own arrow chocolate bar? No, I have not. Although, actually, that's not true. I mean, I've made the aerated chocolate before. with a vacuum machine. But what I would do is go look at Heston. Blumenthal has done a lot of work with that. He has a recipe online. You need a vacuum machine and a way to set it in the freezer, but it's not technically difficult. I've never actually done it though. But Heston's recipe is out there for all to read. So you know, go check it out. If you have more questions or problems on it, hit me back on it. Peter, you got the Tony Harryon has a question in there about on the Twitter feed about freezing and thawing to increase or change the flavor of juice extraction. Freezing and thawing ruptured cells, and so therefore will theoretically increase a yield of juice, but I've never done an actual test on it. I will look up over the course of the week, uh, hopefully whether or not, um, whether or not there's any studies that I can publish. And then I'll talk about my experiences and the differences in flavor of, for instance, like frozen thawed
+
+[40:50] lemons, and also its effect on stringency and tannin and things like
+
+[40:55] persimmons, where you can clearly reduce the tannin and the astringency by freezing and
+
+[40:59] thawing, but that's slightly different from what it does to the juice. That's just the flavor change from overall freezing and thawing. Any other questions there you see on the Twitter right away? Uh, we got, let's see here. Alvin Schultz. Give me some. All right. I want to make large format clear ice at home. Have a chamber back, rotovap, liquid nitrogen, and a crappy home freezer. Okay, no problem. Go buy an igloo cooler. Uh, you know, square one. Rip the top off of it. Use hot water. Pour it, if you can, use relatively pure hot water, right? Pour it into the warm water. You don't have to, you can let it cool down. Don't put it hot into your freezer. You going to screw all your stuff. The reason for hot, less dissolves gases, right? Right? Right. It's not, strictly speaking, necessary, but, you know, do it. warm water even. Then put it in the freezer and let it sit for, you know, a number of days. Uh, should take like 2 days, maybe day, day to 2 days, test it, right? What's going to happen is, is that the uh, the energy is going to go into the ice uh, preferentially through the top. And so you're going to freeze from the top down. Therefore, all the stuff at the top will be clear as you expel out the various impurities at the ice water layer that's in the bottom, then pull it out of the freezer before it totally
+
+[42:12] freeze a solid, or you can let it freeze totally solid, but the bottom of it's going to be crappy. Let it temper out, pop it out of the igloo, saw off any bad parts that are on the
+
+[42:21] bottom only when it's tempered and there you go. should work. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Now, how long do I have? like 3 minutes? What do I have, Joe? 3 minutes? Yeah, you've got like 3 minutes. Yeah, exactly. 1257. And we need and we need to go off right at one. can go a little bit later. All right, so here's what we're going to do. I know I didn't take any commercial breaks today, but because I'm running late. So what I'm going to do is, is that on the out of the show, can we go to the actual commercial
+
+[42:51] break so we can play our sponsor? By the way, the our sponsor today is Joe. It is the chef's step from Chris Young. Right. So Chris Young, who has been a guest on this show before, is one of the authors of Modernist Cuisine,
+
+[43:04] uh, but not Modernist Cuisine at Home, but the interesting little dig that he had, you know, saved the 500 bucks. That's kind of an interesting little dig. I just met with our friend Michael Natkin yesterday. By the way, big congratulations to all of our friends who were winners at the James Beard last night, including Wiley
+
+[43:23] Dufrene, brother-in-law, Brooks Hadley from Del Posto, Del Posto itself, and then a bunch of other
+
+[43:30] people. I didn't I don't have the full list in front of me, but a bunch of good people won. That's great. Anyway, so Michael Natkin, talked to him at the bar yesterday, the writer for the Urbivoracious website, and also working with Chris on this project. And so I was talking to him about it. You know, maybe maybe we'll do some work with them at some point. But I found out that they were sponsored the show. We love them. Great guys, you know, all best, all love. But I love that little dig, right? Save 500 bucks. I figure they're targeting 2 very different markets there, though. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, that was fun. Anyway. So, uh, and by the way, I hope I, Michael, I wanted to force him to come on the show today, but he had to go
+
+[44:09] back, uh, back home, but I hope to get all of those guys maybe back on the radio here at some point, uh, and then you guys can all ask questions of
+
+[44:16] them. Okay. Before I go to the last question, since I can go a little long, let's talk a little Africa stuff. So when I was in Senegal. I think the most striking thing, I'm just talking food now, right? The most striking thing about the food was there seems to be a much more of a continuum between the unfermented and the fermented in West African food than we would get in the
+
+[44:39] states, right? So a lot more fermented grain products, like a lot more products
+
+[44:44] of fermentation in all of their grades. Is that your experience down in Cameroon as well? Yeah, man, at those temperatures, everything just starts fermenting, you know? Right, but it's all done. in other words, like, it's like part of the flavor. So, you know, like porringes will be fermented. Uh, you know, so they have like a, they have this awesome millet, um, porridge called Funde in, uh, in Senegal that is, um, you know, it's fermented millet,
+
+[45:09] porridge, and it's served with fermented kind of thin milk yogurt on top and like a little bit of sugar. And it's great. You know what I mean? And it's the flavor that you don't get here. Or, you know, the main starches that, you know, will be made into, uh,
+
+[45:23] grules, uh, you know, or batters, fermented, and then, uh, and then cooked off, you know, so like various fermented, uh,
+
+[45:31] fufus and things like that. Oh, yeah. But one of the interesting things I had, that's from Cameroon, and maybe you remember the name of it, because I can't remember the name of
+
+[45:37] it because I couldn't write it down. I had it, it was very interesting, and it was, it was manioc, cassette. Oh, I love it. And sticks? Like gummy, like a rice cake? Yes. Had the texture of mochi, but it's fermented. Do you have this? Yes. What's the name of? Well, in Cameron, there are a lot of different names, but the most common one was just baton de manioc, which just means manioc stick. Right? Yeah. Okay. So they have a real bouncy texture like mochi, right? And they're fermented and they're like the 1st bite, you're like, am I going to like this, but they're freaking addictive. amazing. Yeah. But here's the interesting thing. The particular one I had had been, you know, made by the cook was housemade. And the particular fermented flavor of this one was unlike most of the other fermentations that I had had in that it didn't taste like a lactic acid
+
+[46:25] bacteria, to me, the one I had. It tasted the most similar fermentation taste I could put on it was salt risen bread. And salt risen bread, which we talked about in the show before, is like a very kind of, like, weird old, like, kind of rare bread technique from the Appalachians, where the main fermentation agent is
+
+[46:45] clustridium perfringians, which normally is a foodborne, you know, illness, you know,
+
+[46:50] pathogen cause a lot of problems. But one time I made salt raised bread one or twice. This had that similar fermented flavor, but I haven't had time to research it yet. But did you notice in Cameroon that they had a different kind of fermented flavor from other
+
+[47:02] things or is it the same or? It hard for me to say, man. It's just a great taste, man. I love it. All right, so I'm going to go back and do some research on that. The other thing, you know, that they have. There's so many fermented products over. And one of my favorite fermented products in the world. It was in Cameroon. Which one? Palm wine. Oh, yes, you know what? The palm wine, 1st of all, Senegal is predominantly Muslim, right? And in fact, they had me serve an alcoholic beverage at this event and didn't put a French translator next to
+
+[47:29] me. And so I was in a position. My French isn't, my accent's not good enough to immediately tell people. So these people descended on us. And then people started picking up the drink and drinking it. It was made with mud, which is an M-A-D-D or M-A-D or M-A-D-E, which is an amazing fruit from Cosimans, which is in Southern Senegal. It's an amazing fruit, fruit. It has like kind of like, it tastes like kind of passion fruit and like kind of got, but a lot of acidity, more acidic
+
+[47:53] tart in the way lime is tart, not in the way that passion fruit, tarp, but like passion
+
+[47:57] fruit, and a bunch of different other tropical fruits, like maybe some guanabana flavor in it.
+
+[48:01] And I made a juice out of it. Uh, you know, I tried to do booker and Dax, but like low textile. So like I strained it. It was really pure and mixed it with rum. Fantastic. I wish we could get this fruit here. Anyway, so they're picking it up and like one person does a spit take. I'm like, it's got alcohol in it. And then like they eventually posted a, like a hostess next to me who literally just stood there like wagging her finger back and forth
+
+[48:23] like, no, no. I'm like well, you know, don't do that. It's not poisonous, you know, and some of the people here aren't, aren't, you know, Muslim, they can have it. But I was like, I was like, what is going wrong with my life that I'm here in a Muslim country trying to serve alcohol
+
+[48:36] to people. Like it's exactly like the worst thing it could happen. But the drink was in fact delicious. Um, they have Netatu in in Cameron or no? I don't know what Netatu is. Cameron, Netatu is the fermented seeds of some acacia
+
+[48:50] tree. And it's amazing stuff. I forget the genus name, but the species of it is Big Lobosa. Big lobosa. That be a good rapper name. Oh, Sick name. Net 2 Big Lobosa. Like, uh, but it has a taste. It's used in a lot of stews, like, and like other things like tibu Jen, which is like the traditional, you know, national Senegalese dish. But it has, in it, It has the flavors of like coffee and chocolate and black bean. So it's like really kind of and it's boiled and fermented. Uh, you know, boil the boil the uh, the seeds and the pods, ferment them and then salt them and let them dry. Uh, fermented onion that's used in things that's put in balls. Fermented fish is famous like gedge, fermented conch, yet, which is amazing. But like all these fermented things. But what people don't, I mean, the smells in the market can be overpowering, but the foods aren't at all like
+
+[49:42] that overpowering. It just really, I thought, really delicious, really interesting, unique
+
+[49:46] flavors, and I'm definitely going to be working with them in the future. You know what I mean? And the camera, the one Cameroonian restaurant I went to, the food was amazing. I can't wait to go to the Cameroon area there. I hear it's like just the fruits and vegetables and stuff, just good stuff, yeah. There's an insane culinary diversity in that country. Yeah, I mean, there's just a lot going on in West Africa in general. So I just had the very, like, the smallest taste of it going to Senegal and I hope to be going back at some point. I think it's one of the most undiscovered collection of cuisines in the world. West African. you know, that's in part, and all of sub-Haran Africa, frankly, you know what I
+
+[50:21] mean? is like that. And that's the reason that we were doing this thing. Pierre Cham, uh, you know, a friend of a friend of ours who, uh, you know, had a restaurant grant a car in, uh, Brooklyn is from Senegal, and, uh, you know, uh, I had spoken to him about organizing a series of trips a couple years
+
+[50:37] ago, and he finally made it happen, even though, you know, I I have, you know, I've been too busy. I haven't done it. But the basic idea is, is that in Africa, when foreigners come, they feed them non-traditional food because they assume that, you know, that, you know, Western, or, you know,
+
+[50:50] it was like Euro, Euro and American style folks don't want the traditional food, right? Which is as far like people nowadays, like people like myself or other like gastro tourists or, you know, gastro tourism, which is a big
+
+[51:03] thing, they don't want fake food. You know, like I say, if I want French food, I'll go to France. If I'm going to fly somewhere, I want to learn about the food that's from there, right? Uh, so, so there's that. They're showing people there that outsiders respect the indigenous
+
+[51:18] stuff and that that's what they should do. And then there's the flip side is that we don't know hardly anything about it. And there's a lot to learn. There's as much diversity and interest and amazing stuff going on there as, you know, any one of the Asian cultures that everyone here knows all the
+
+[51:31] minutiae of or any one of the European cultures that everyone knows all the minutiae of the food products from, right? And yet there's not the exposure to it, and therefore not that level of interest. So when I went there, I did a talk actually, and I tried to point out, I was like, look, you know, in here in the US, I was like, take a look at Sean Brock, who's been doing like
+
+[51:49] high level work with, you know, specifically South Carolina stuff, right? And so he's doing some amazing work, but that's, you know, not that much of a stretch because he's, you know,
+
+[51:57] here and people, you know, respect that's going on. I was like, okay, well, you know, look at, you know, 20 years to 10 years ago, even, 10 years ago, who thought about Danish food? Did you? Now all that stuff's now all the rage. Why? Because of Rennie Rizzeppi. So I put Renny Rizzeppi up and I put Alex Atla from DOM in Brazil, who's like, you know, everyone in South America looked at what
+
+[52:20] happened that that restaurant and how he's using incredibly local products to do this really high-end work.
+
+[52:26] So he's not doing French work that happens to have a couple local ingredients. It's like using modern cooking techniques and using incredibly local ingredients. And the advantages is it can't be copied. You can't copy that restaurant somewhere else because you don't have access to the ingredients. Same goes for Noma. Same goes for Sean, you know, down in South
+
+[52:45] Carolina is they have cuisines that are respected the world over and that can't be copied, so you need to go travel to have it. And, you know, I said that this may seem irrelevant to you. that says to people, in a country where, you know, a huge percentage of, you know, your population is suffering from problems like iron
+
+[53:01] deficiency, you know what I mean? and other things. But in fact, we can, you can, you know, you can generate some good revenue if you, you know, if you do it. I don't know. And of course, introducing people to these these culinary sort of treasures around the world is one of the major goals of the
+
+[53:17] museum of food and drink. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, much so, yes. Anyway, so we'll talk more about maybe some of the other, like, Bayobab. they have baobab stuff down here. That's my favorite tree in the world. That's a good tree, right? That's an awesome tree. Baobab. It called something like Bui or something in Woloff, but I don't know what it's called down in a camera. But yeah, it's a guy, they use every part of the dang tree. And plus they're just really cool looking. amazing. Yeah. So we'll talk more about this. You know, I have some, I don't bring it with me. Bale of bad candy. I bring you some. I still think I still have some left. I not sure. Okay, last question on the way out. And then on the way out, remember, Joe, we're going to play our commercial break sponsors because I didn't go to a commercial break today. got it. Uh, SB writes in. Says greetings from Paris. All right. Yeah, Paris. The 4th season of Top Chef has just ended here in France. And I wanted to get your views on culinary competitions in general. So already, it sounds like a good question, right? Right? Yeah. More specifically, the Top Chef or Iron Chef like shows really crown good cooks. Or is it more of a mix of luck, contestant personality, et cetera? What do you think of the professional competitions, such as the beaucuse? That's the, uh, the beaucuse of gold, as we say here in the, in the US of A. The pastry World Cup or the MOF, which stands for, oh, something may, you know, something over here, Francaise,
+
+[54:40] anyway, like butt kicking of Frenchness, which, by the way, isn't just for chefs. It's for any sort of, there's a whole list of crafts that you can have MOF in
+
+[54:48] France, and others. Also, feel free to say bad things about Airveitis. Okay, SB. Well, he is actually one of the very few people in the food world that I don't have a compunction just saying bad things about because
+
+[55:01] he, A, doesn't care whether or not Americans say bad things about him, and B, he is a huckster charlatan, and says crazy false things all the time. And I always hold up against him. Harold McGee, who is, you know, awesome. So they're kind of like opposites. You know what I mean? Yeah. Herb Atis, who thinks that cooking an egg in an oven is a good way to measure how it responds to temperatures,
+
+[55:27] which whatever. You know what, SB? don't get me started. Don't get me started because then, you know, I only have a couple minutes to answer your regular question. So my thing on this is, is that contests, Contests
+
+[55:41] clearly measure something. The question is, what do they measure, right? So, you know, one thing you can look at is, uh, you know, which ones do chef squatch, right? So chefs used to, I don't know if they still do, uh, watch Iron Chef, like they like it, right? That was one of the very 1st contest shows that chefs actually wanted to be on, right? So Wiley, uh, who, you know, didn't was
+
+[56:06] like, out of who TV, I hate food TV. He doesn't talk like that. But anyway, but he said that. Why do I always use voices that aren't people like anything like the people that I'm talking about? is just, I don't know why. don't know why. Anyway, when he got the opportunity to do Iron Chef, I was like, yes, I want to do it. Everybody has respect for the, uh, uh, or, you know, again, I haven't spoken to people about in a while, but respect for the Iron Chef brand. And it is a mixture of personality, right? Because a lot of it's about, you know, you have to talk to the judges. It's, you know, there's some sales shit, you know, sales, you know, sailing that's going on when you're
+
+[56:40] talking, but it also is real cooking task. And, you know, you do interesting stuff and it's respected. Um, you know, a lot of chefs have done Top Chef Masters, and the reason they do it isn't necessarily because they like the format of the show.
+
+[56:56] I mean, to be very, um, you know, kind of blunt. Uh, you get a big pop in the restaurant after you do the show, whether you win or you lose, right? So it's good for business to do it. And it's good for, and it's a, it's kind of a mark that you've done it that allows you to then
+
+[57:13] to do other things. So it's there's an advantage to doing it. You know, and what does it measure? I don't know. You know, like, you know, does it measure, like, how much you would like the food that someone cooked, were they thinking about the food
+
+[57:27] beforehand? You know what I mean? So when you're put in a situation where I, it's Iron Chef. For those of you that don't know, okay? Iron, when you do Iron Chef, it's not like someone's like, walks up to you and says, uh, widgety grubs. And then it's the 1st time you've heard this widgety grubs, and then you create all these amazing dishes in an hour from widgety grubs, right? Because if those iron chefs could actually do that, then I would, you know, I would quit my job and spend all of my time just
+
+[57:57] bowing at their knees. You know what I mean? That's in fact not what happens on Iron Chef. What happens on Iron Chef is you're given a list of of 3 or four. I forget what it is, possible things that it could be, and you practice those recipes a bunch of times to make sure you can clock in
+
+[58:15] in under an hour. That's what happens. Now, there's an extreme advantage to the Iron Chef because they're used to the kitchen, and a lot of inefficiency comes from not being used to a kitchen, but there you have it.
+
+[58:25] So, uh, so like, but still, you know, it's a lot different from cooking in your own element with ingredients that you choose
+
+[58:34] yourself. And these things like Chopped, where you'd have no idea what's going on, are extremely different. So someone winning in that circumstance isn't the same thing as someone who would make them necessarily the most delicious food at their
+
+[58:45] restaurant or even at your house because at your house, time management isn't as important as it is in
+
+[58:51] Iron Shed. Iron Chef is as much about time management as it is about anything else. Because in Iron Chef, the goal, really, is to produce a bunch of incressive, impressive crap in an hour. You know what I mean? So it's like really a time management thing, which is actually a fantastic measure of the chef. Chef needs good time management. Not necessarily the best indicator of who is, in absolute terms, the best cook, right? So, I mean, these are, they're all measuring different things and you have to look. Now things like the... I also, you know, think that most outside accolades are kind of absurd
+
+[59:23] because again, they're also not necessarily measuring things that might be important in the real world. That said, MOF is pretty badass. You know what I mean? Anyone that has an MOF, you can pretty much guarantee that they're a badass. Saying, Boku's door? If you win the Boku's door. You're a badass. I mean, like, that's all there is to it just because it's incredibly, incredibly difficult, right? So if someone climbs Mount Everest without oxygen, right? Are they the world's best human being? No, that's pretty badass. I mean, I think it's, I think it's personally dumb to try and climb climb Mount Everest. And I also, myself, wouldn't want to spend the amount of time in my life, it would take to get close to winning any one of these competitions if I even could. You know what I mean? But they are a measure of badassery. What you think? I don't know if you know about this notes about me, Dave, but I actually competed in a cooking competition once. Yeah. I almost won $100,000 making a burger. How was the burger? I mean, the thing is, this speaks to your point. I'm not a great cook. I'm, you know, I can practice something and do it well eventually, and that's precisely what I did in this situation. It was actually a Sutter home burger competition. The price was $100,000. I came in 2nd place, like lost by one point out of 235. So what do you get, just like a boatload of Merlot? I got nothing. No, Nathan. I got five. Actually, the 2nd prize was $500. So it's $100,000, 1st place, then $500 second place. 3rd prize you fired? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I basically, I think it's it's how a measure of how well you played the rules of that particular game. Yeah, also, yeah, in bar competitions, a lot of it's about the pattern and the speech and kind of what you do and how well you can smooge the judges. And to be honest, like it depending on like some things are, you know, judges are incredibly biased, you know, and you can just have a bad judge and you can have this.
+
+[1:01:04] So, you know, they, yes, they do measure something. But take, take, you know, anything like that with a grain of salt. I personally detest competitions unless they are, like the only competitions that I kind of enjoy are ones that are quantitative in nature that you can win or you can
+
+[1:01:25] lose. You know what I mean? juicing contest, which I lost, unfortunately. Last time I was in one, I embarrassed myself in front of my kids and my kids have vowed to revenge me later.
+
+[1:01:36] I was embarrassed myself too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See? There you go. And, you know, or, you know, soccer game, who gets the most goals. Anyway, but that's me. But I'm a curmudgeon and a weasel and a hard person to deal with. Uh, so, uh, more next week. Thanks, Peter, for coming in, ready for the commercial break and on out with cooking issues. Do you want to become a more creative cook? Are you interested in cutting edge cooking techniques? Do you find the science of cooking fascinating? You could buy modernist cuisine, or you can save yourself $450 and check out chefsteps.com. Founded by Chris Young, Ryan Matthew Smith, and Grant Crilley, all alumni of the creative team behind modernist cuisine,
+
+[1:02:22] chef steps is loaded with reliable recipes, thorough step-by-step demonstrations, and supported with clear explanations of the underlying science that answers the why behind the how.
+
+[1:02:34] And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. And chef steps is entirely free to learn.
+
+[1:02:50] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:03:19] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chef steps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org, a nonprofit member supported radio
+
+[0:20] station, where 1000000s strong. With folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education, we are entertainment. We are the future of food. May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invite special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:20] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Aberta Pizzeria and Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12, to roughly 1245 or one. Joined in the studio, again, or normal style today with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Okay. Yeah? Yeah. Jack decided not to join us today. I don't know what that's all about, but we have Joe. Hey, Joe, how you doing? I'm doing great. How are you guys? I'm doing all right. I was listening to the little blurb. we have at the beginning there. And, you know, they have a word for something that's both entertainment and information. It's educainment. isn't that right? Yeah, entertainment. sounds right. So are we educ- educating? How would you say that? Edutanable? Edutanumant? Anyway, whatever. Call your questions too. 7184972128. That 718-4972128. Hope to be joined soon on the telephone with the one of the sponsors from today's show, Chris Young from Chef Steps and Modernist Cuisine. And in fact, he's a bit of a coffee nut. So I have some coffee questions that I put off from last time and some also, I think, ones from this time. I'm going to hold off on those until Chris calls in so I can get him to weigh in on as well. By the way, Stas, how did Mark's barbecue, his Italian barbecue go? Really well. Yeah? Lots of people. It raised a lot of money, I think. Yeah? Uh, like, uh, how was how was the food? pretty okay. Oh, stars with her, with her, uh, Ray, Ray, Ray reviews of everything. Okay. Hey, we have a caller. All right, call her, call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Chris from Seattle. How are you? Hey, doing all right. Doing all right. So, Joe, this is Chris Young, our sponsor from today. Oh, yes. Do we have the opportunity to take other calls in as well, or no? We have one line open still, so... All right, so for those of you that want to
+
+[3:17] pester, Chris, with any of your modernist and or non-modernist,
+
+[3:22] and or when he was working at Fat Duck, and or gliding, because he's a glider pilot, if you have any... Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you have any questions relating to any of those things, call on in. How you doing, Chris? I'm doing well, man. How are you? It's been a while Yeah, I know. When are you in New York next? Uh, I don't know when you, when are you going to invite me out for drinks? Oh, you are always welcome at the bar for James Fis. But, uh, well, I'm just about recovered from my last trip to New York, so uh, when I when I lose any sort of judgment, I'll be back out. Well, so now, are you still spending all of your time in Seattle? Now, where is chefs, chefs, chef steps? It's based in several locations or how's it working? No, we are in, we're a, we have a 4000 square foot space in Seattle's Pike Place
+
+[4:11] market overlooking the water and so we've built out our own experimental kitchen and and tooled it up. We have our software developers and an entire production team here. We do have a bit of a hardware engineering lab just south of Seattle and
+
+[4:25] Georgetown and uh, a couple employees uh, in Chicago and LA. other than that, we're here. Nice. Well, I have to come out and visit you guys sometime. You absolutely should. I was thinking we maybe need like an east coast west coast uh cocktail challenge. We've got we've got our own fairly talented bar staff here as well. Oh yeah? Well, I'm down for a challenge. What would the challenge be? I know you, it's your show. What do you think it should be? Man, I don't know. I mean, you know that my particular, my particular bent is towards things that, uh, look somewhat normal. Uh, huh. Like style. What do you think a good challenge would be? I mean, actually, I need a good challenge. I was just saying the other day, like I need a new cocktail problem to solve, not just a new ingredient or taste, but it's a whole new problem to solve. Can you think of any, Chris? Or should we leave this open to our readers? Like, what, what, or listeners order? I'd actually like to hear from your viewers. I've always found, I certainly find in our forum that the best, the biggest challenges tend to come from unexpected places. Yeah, although, being barbecue season, uh, you know, I'm certainly, have you done much with, uh, with smoke and cocktails? In drinks? No, I'll tell you why. There's been a bunch of people who have done a lot of work with it already, and so, you know, I tend to do the hardest work in places where I think there's a lot, a lot, lot more work to do, but there is a lot more, you know, the, a lot of problems I think I have with people when they've smoked the cocktails is they, they tend to
+
+[5:57] use, uh, they tend to use, uh, kind of those, uh, those uh, small format, uh, smoke generators. And when they when you oversmoke a drink with that, it tends to take on more of kind of the over phenolic burnt flavors from it. And it can be hard for those. It can be hard for people to dose. I mean, I think the best results I've seen are actually from more of the smoky flavor off of charred chips and
+
+[6:23] whatnot. I've seen good results off of that and had good results off that. I mean, obviously smoke and alcohol go together. I mean, have you done any good experiments with it or not? Well, yeah, we just, we just did a cocktail. We've done a couple things. We did a, we did one where we take charred oak chips and we pressure infuse it with an ISI siphon, uh, um, uh, to basically get uh, a rapid aging of the, of the bourbon and and that sort of smoky flavor, and that's, that's
+
+[6:49] fantastic, and we have another cocktail where we, uh, we use charred cinnamon
+
+[6:53] sticks, uh, so a cocktail is called Churchill breakfast. Yeah, how's that one come out? No, that one's delicious. I will happily drink that just about any day. I've had good luck with the ISI and an oak doing like a semi-char semi-oak at the same time. But my favorite way to add wood is, of course, to take an aged spirit that I like, rotovapid so that I have
+
+[7:16] the, I have the oak left over and then add it back to my other unaged stuff. I mean, that's that's fantastic. It's a little bit pricey and out of the range of most people working, but. Hey Chris and Dave, we have a caller for both of you. Oh, yeah? Yeah. All right, caller. on the air. What's up? Hey, this is Yuba calling from Silver Spring, Maryland. How you doing? Good, good. I had a couple questions about you and Chris. First, I'd like to say, you know, Chef Steph's really impressive is an
+
+[7:48] amazing, amazing resource. I have Myers Susie Myers to be at home. It's always fantastic to use videos. There's a breakdown that everything is done on there. It's really, really great work. So
+
+[8:01] thanks for that. Well, thank you. So, uh, my friend and I are throwing kind of like an ice cream party, uh, tomorrow, and we didn't have time to do a lot of side by side tests, one of the recipes that we were doing, but, uh, one of the things we were doing was a recipe from the, uh, Humphrey locum restaurant in, uh,
+
+[8:22] San Francisco, it looks like an ice cream book, and it's, um, strawberries and candied jalapeno. So, the candy jalapeno, we made by, you know, just, uh, taking out the seeds and the ribs and just, uh, cooking it with simple syrup. So we were kind of expecting that it would, there would still be some heat left over in the jalapeno, but there really wasn't anything that we could
+
+[8:45] discern, both in the jalapeno itself. And then in the syrup, you know, that had kind of like the infusion afterwards. So we were wondering if that was, because the recipe was kind of imprecise, it was just like one jalapeno. It didn't say how big, how much, um, and, you know, they can vary in terms of their heat. But is you, do you know if there's some issue that the, the cap space and it gets kind of neutralized when you go to that
+
+[9:10] process? make a difference if we more... I'd like to, I want your little clarification here. Is
+
+[9:18] the, is the jalapeno going in a dairy base and is that when you lose the heat or is it after you poached it in the sugar syrup that seems to be
+
+[9:25] diminished? Uh, it seems to be after the syrup, it went in the syrup. I mean, there was, there was nothing, there was no trace of anything in the syrup either. Besides for the kind of the, the, um, floral notes of the jalapeno itself. Did you eat the jalapeno? Did you eat a portion of the jalapeno beforehand to verify that it wasn't deep spicy? No, no, we didn't, but that, you know, that's that's a fair point because with milk kind of takes away the heat, right? Well, the, the, capsation is fairly soluble in, in fact. So when you, when you put, you know, when you put the, the, the, the, the chilies in an, an ice cream base, absolutely, it's going to diminish the fat. I've made habanero ice cream. It would be inedible if it wasn't dissolved in that much fat. But if you're losing the heat in the syrup. There's really only 2 things that come to my mind and didn't jump in here if you see it differently. But one, my best bet would be, my, my, my 1st guess would be a jalapeno that just wasn't very hot to begin with. Yeah. Um, and the 2nd thing is, I don't know how much syrup you were using, but you're going to dilute some of the capsation down in that
+
+[10:27] syrup and, and if you take a fairly small amount of capsation to begin with and dilute it down in a large amount of syrup, um, it's not, your
+
+[10:36] result's not going to be very hot. So if you want a little bit more heat, I might look uh, you know, I might look to using something other than a jalapeno.
+
+[10:44] Yeah, but that said, if you take a jalapeno and slice it thin, even in a
+
+[10:49] relatively, like, if it's a, you know, a good, you know, a good one with some strength. And you slice it relatively thinly, and do a boilout with it in the sugar syrup, you should be able to pick up a good bit.
+
+[11:00] I mean, the good thing about, you know, sugar syrup is, you can continue to heat it for a while. So, you know, what I typically do with heat. I tend not to use green, when I add heat to
+
+[11:12] things, most of the time in drinks and in ice creams and things like this, I want to add
+
+[11:17] more of a red flavored heat. So I tend to use red things. Uh, so, but you just keep tasting it. And what'll happen is, is I, is it'll, it'll be the right amount of spice and then eventually it'll over, it'll over extract and get too spicy. So I just keep tasting, tasting, tasting, and then throw it through a course chinois to strain it out as soon as it's at the place where I like it. Um, and that tends to be what I, what I do. It's almost impossible to measure peppers because they're so variable with regard to their heat levels, even from pepper to pepper, unless you're dealing with something preposterously hot, like a
+
+[11:53] habanero where you know that it's going to hit you with a wild fat. But even then, you can be mistaken. We can get an ahi dulce, which looks for all the world like a habanero and smells like it, but doesn't taste like it very much and isn't
+
+[12:05] hot hardly at all. Um, you know, so like peppers can be extremely, extremely variable. And so, you know, I would always get a couple of extra, chop, chop them, throw them in while you do the heat and be aware that what Chris says is
+
+[12:18] right. When you then mix it down with your milk and cream base, it's going to reduce the heat even further. So you might want to just have some spicy crap sitting around that you can dose back
+
+[12:28] into spice with. But you have to be careful because usually then when you're dosing something back, you're dosing. If you're dosing a dry spice, let's say, those things get radically hotter when you infuse them.
+
+[12:37] So the red pepper flakes, you get at a pizza parlor. You can eat them on their own without too much trouble. You infuse them for a long time in a liquid and then they can start blowing your top off. Right, Chris? I mean, you're... Yeah, no, the basic issues when they're dry, you tend to swallow them before they have time to rehydrate and start diffusing out the capsation. But if you rehydrate them 1st so that the capsation can easily hit the soft tissue in your mouth. You're going to be a very unhappy person. Yeah, I mean, that's a classic mistake people do when they're making sauces, is they'll throw in a bunch of dry chili
+
+[13:07] flakes, and they're like, oh, it's not hot enough, and then they'll throw in some more dry chili flakes.
+
+[13:11] Well, it's still not hot enough, and then they'll throw some more and then 15 minutes later, they're done, you know? Yeah, you got to you got to wait and you got to give it time. That's not as much of a problem as fresh, but. Thank you. I had a dream question also. Maybe, you know, up your up your challenge. I was wondering if, uh, we wanted to kind of pair some of these things with alcohol drink. Um, and then I was thinking, did you, have you ever tried to do like an alcohols version of an ice cream float? Oh yeah. Oh yes. So, so you made kind of like an alcoholic, um, like a fizzy,
+
+[13:45] frothy drink and then, you know, just some ice cream in there. Yep. Delicious. Anything in particular, any good combinations that you'd recommend? I mean, there's the obvious ones. root beer. There's some couple of good root beer liqueurs out there. You can make your own root beer flavor, and you can do a classic root beer float. That's probably the 1st one I ever did. Uh, you can mean, I mean, I would imagine that, uh, you know, a recarbonated rum and coke would make a good float if you want traditional flavors. Uh, I've done, um, you know, if you like vinegar cocktails, uh, like a really nice fresh fig ice cream
+
+[14:17] with uh, with like a slightly vinegared carbonated soda cocktail is nice and works as a non-dessert kind of a
+
+[14:26] thing. But there's, I mean, Chris, have you ever done, what flavors do you try with that? I haven't done it. I haven't done a ice cream, an alcoholic ice cream float, but I'm immediately thinking of how
+
+[14:38] to, how to do something like a boozy cream sickle. Oh yeah. Well, we have a drink now. I mean, like a carbonated, well, Jen, I don't know how Jim would go with ice cream. You might have to switch to a different spirit, but orange, we have a drink on the bar menu now that's clarified orange, orange juice, uh, where we add a citric, uh, and Malik blend to it to give it the acidic characteristics of lime
+
+[15:01] juice, and we use that, we use that in a daiquiri variant where we milk wash the daiquiri to give it a nice heavy, so it tastes like an
+
+[15:07] Orange Julius. We call it Dr. J. But that orange base, we don't clarify for the daiquiri because we want it to be foamy. But it clarified, you can, you, I've made kind of gin, like a gin, so I would make like a celery, a celery ice cream or sorbet, and then do like
+
+[15:24] clarified orange with mallet and citric, and like liquor of your choice, carbonated, carbonated, and poured
+
+[15:31] over could be quite nice. You know what I would try? I've been playing, we've been playing with this a bit lately, is old school phosphates, and using phosphoric acid is our seasoning with various citrus, citrus juices, and then carbonating them, and I've kind of got a hankering to sort of make an alcoholic mandarin,
+
+[15:50] mandarin, soda, that's getting a test, extra city, not only from the citric, but phosphoric. Have you ever worked with phosphoric acid date? Yeah, but the problem is, is that Nastasia hates it. And so like whenever I want them, go towards... Well, in that case, we're done. No, I mean, but the, I mean, the issue is, is that, yeah. Well, Chris, you know this, like, you, you, you, if someone asks you to work on something, you work on something, but then if the people around you are constantly saying how they hate things, it like makes it kind of a pain in the butt to work with, the same way
+
+[16:20] that, like, we don't do a lot with cherries because I'm allergic to it, you know? So it's... That's a horrible thing to be allergic to. I know, I know it is because cherry is our God's best fruit, I think. They're certainly my favorite, and have you not had therapy for that? I, I, I think I, you know what it is? It's, uh, what happened was, is that, you know, I have, uh, I'm being punished. I'm being punished for all of those years of making fun of people with allergies. And so they're like, oh, world's greatest fruit. Now you're allergic to it. Enjoy. I think that's what happened pretty much. So this is karma. Yeah, yeah, bad, bad, bad carbon. When you are carbonating things, be aware. When you're carbonating, is that you can probably go a little bit higher alcohol and a little bit higher sugar than you would for a drink drink, but
+
+[17:08] the more alcohol you have, the harder it's going to be to carbonate properly. When we were making carbonated drinks at the bar for consumption,
+
+[17:18] straight drinking consumption. We use ratios of between one.75, uh, 2 up to 2 ounces, that's 60 mils of uh, of high proof spirit in a total uh, cocktail base of 5 ounces just for for your, you know, general edification. Anything stiffer than that, and it's going to be more difficult to, um, it's going to be more difficult to carbonate
+
+[17:45] properly, and also when something's stiffer than that is balanced out with acids and sugars. It's going to tend to taste syrupy, and the 1st couple of bites might be good, but I mean, drinks might be good, but as it goes down, it's going to be more cloying. So just so you know, now, if you're working on a float, you could probably go a little harder than that, but also realize that an
+
+[18:02] alcoholic based soda will foam even more than a regular soda when poured on an ice cream
+
+[18:07] base. Just... Yeah. Well, because alcohol tends to foam anyway. Like when you're carbonating cocktails, it foams so much, you know? So my, like, there's already a foaming issue with it. And then, obviously, floats are a foaming issue. So it's just, you know, it can become a big foam. It, delicious though, but it can be a big kind of a foamy mess. All right, Chris, while you're on the air here, let's, I have some coffee questions in. So 1st of all, we had a question last week. Someone was asking about frothing frothing milk without getting an expensive frother. And I'm actually, you know, in modernist cuisine. You guys have a recipe where you stabilize foam with whey
+
+[18:49] protein, isolate, and sucroester, sucrose esters. Will that actually make latte art foam with an arrow latte? Is it dense enough? Does a sucrose ester make it fine enough? Uh, the way protein helps you probably more than the sucrosestors. Just so you could probably leave the sucro sectors out of that and still make it work. It's possible to make a latte foam that you can pour latte art with using an air latte. There's a fair amount of technique. What I found is you generally sort of, uh, we need to be warming it as you go, and you want to be working, though,
+
+[19:24] the, the arrow latte one really sort of more at the bottom, you're going to try to drag a little bit of errand. But then mostly what you're trying to do is just have the aero latte sort of buried deeper and constantly sort of breaking up the bubble so that you're getting a smaller and smaller microphone. So I tend to be moving the arrow latte around the bottom of the pot, slowly bringing it towards the surface, but I've sort of brought the arrow latte to the
+
+[19:48] surface at about the same time that the milk is the right temperature. The real thing that most people make a mistake with, in my experience, if you want to get a really wet foam, that's velvety and silky, and you can't really see any individual bubbles, and it's going to, you know, sort of have that viscous pour to it, is don't overeat the milk. The milk really shouldn't be much hotter than about 45, 50 Celsius at the
+
+[20:13] most if you really want to have a, have some milk that's really easy to pour, uh, pour latte with. If you start getting the milk up to like 60 Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit. It's going to be really dry and when you go to pour it, all the foam's going to slide back to the pitcher and hot milk's just going to come out beneath it. Um, and so I found that that's really almost more important than anything else you add to the milk.
+
+[20:33] So you can't get it to an arrow latte. You can't get it to the temperatures that you would get if you were actually pulling it from a steam wand. When I talk from a steam one, I very rarely go much hotter than that myself, but I don't tend to drink huge milky beverages.
+
+[20:46] So like if I drink a traditional cappuccino or a 5
+
+[20:49] out latte, um, I generally won't heat my middle much hotter than about 45
+
+[20:55] Celsius, and that gives me just this really nice melt texture. Almost every coffee shop I go into, I, I, I tend to have the opinion that they, they oversteam the milk so that it's piping hot when you're carrying around this sort of bladder busting
+
+[21:07] sized coffee. But for me, that's not a very pleasant drinking experience. Well, my wife, for instance, she likes the taste of the foam done, uh, kind of lower
+
+[21:17] temp. She prefers the coffee to be hotter. There's no really no way around. I mean, like, can you do like a quick nuke and like not, no, you're just automatically ruined as soon as it's heated up? Well, the thing to do there is your espresso is going to come out
+
+[21:30] funny hot, you know, nearly boiling, right? No, it's the milk. Have a hot cup. Um, and and then don't, if you're going to drown it in a huge amount of milk, yeah, your, your hose, um,
+
+[21:42] you can probably get the, with the steamed ones, you could get the 55 comfortably and still get a wet foam.
+
+[21:48] Um, But my experience is that you go much hotter than that. The foam starts to get really unstable. It starts to get dry and it just isn't as pleasant to drink. Now, I mean, I always pull, uh, I always pull like a hefty amount of hot water tap on my espresso machine before into my cup to preheat it. But is that not standard practice? Well, so I suppose standard practices is have the cups on the top of the espresso machine so that they're they're nice and hot. They, they, you know, they design the machine so that the boiler heat, uh, heating the top surface, but, um, if you want it really hot, yeah, just, you know,
+
+[22:23] do some of the boiling water out of the boiler into it. More than anything else, I just like it when it's served in a warm cup. There's something really nice about how that feels when you're when you're drinking it. Well, that's also, you know, cups in general, which is why, you know, paper cups are the devil. Yeah, but paper cups have the advantage that they go in your car real nice and, you know, that, that, I know that that's, you know, more of a west coast thing to drive around so your, your drive through Starbucks
+
+[22:51] and and get your, your, your, your, what is it? I think a 30 some on out, Starbucks uh, uh, latte now. Wow. So, you know. with one double in it? That only has one double of coffee in it? Oh, I have no idea. never ordered that beast of a drink. It's like the Trento or something. It's like the big gulp of the latte world, and I think it's like 2 shots. Yeah, so I'm sure somebody can call it incorrective because I've never had it. Yeah, so that doesn't happen in New York because here what you would have to do is walk past 5 Starbucks to get to your car, then drive to the Starbucks, double park, go into the Starbucks, get the thing, come back out, put it in your car, and then you
+
+[23:31] could drink it for the next hour and a half while you look for your parking space again. It just reminded me of why I'm glad I don't live in New York. Yeah, but on the other hand, we walk everywhere. Okay, anyway. back back on the coffee. Oh, by the way, so Scott from Guelph wrote in, uh, commenting on that question from last week, and uh, Scott says, uh, I wanted to write in, firstly, I'm making decent milk foam without a steam wand on high-end espresso machine. I found a fairly good and cheap technique. You can buy a small French press style coffee maker, some specifically designed for milk. You add the cold milk to the bottom of the press, so it comes up over the mesh screen, and you rapidly pump the screen up and down in the milk and make it fairly dense
+
+[24:09] and stable foam. You can then heat the milk inside the glass container in the nuke. The foam doesn't overheat and pop since the air mixture doesn't absorb microwaves as well as the still liquid milk at the bottom. With my setup, it takes about 45 seconds to get to the proper temperature for a cappuccino and the foam seems to work best if you use very cold skimmed milk, although you can get a richer but less impressive foam with higher fat
+
+[24:27] milks. I do not like skim milk foams. What do you think about that technique, Chris? I think the biggest challenge I would be concerned about is as you sort of nuke it, essentially that you're going to have the dry foam right to the top and it's going to drain out. So, I suspect with a lot of care and attention, you can sort of swirl it and keep the foam wet and together,
+
+[24:47] but, to me, uh, I'm, I, I, I've seen the technique. I've never been able to get it to work where I can get a nice, evenly wet, dense foam from top to bottom of the
+
+[24:57] pitcher that I can just free pour to get a nice rosette. But, you
+
+[25:02] know what, it totally works. You don't even, if you just want an okay milk foam, and you don't want to spend a lot of money, you can use any French press to do that. Uh, skim milk does work best, but it tastes unpleasant in
+
+[25:16] my, in my, my opinion, I'd use 2%. It's a skim milk's a bad product. Let me just say this right now. Skim milk should not exist. Why? It's horrible. It's just a nightmare. I mean, like, like, if you want to, like, dehydrate it and get the milk powder for using something else, maybe, but why would you ever want? I mean, it's horrible. You know, my 90, how old is he now? 94 almost year old grandpa is is only drinks full fat milk. Like, this, like you're not saving that much. It's just wretched. It's just a wretched, thin, gray, awful thing. Like I say, I'm sure it has some culinary applications, but as an actual product to consume,
+
+[25:52] it's wretched. Do you disagree with me? I don't drink skim milk. Yeah, no, it's horrible. Uh, so, uh, now, uh, Scott writes in also, uh, separate issue we had, Chris last week was, uh, someone wanted to uh, serve a non-alcoholic uh, drinks to their wife uh, uh, who is pregnant, and uh, and so, you know, ideas of drinks that you could sip for a while, uh, you know, and sort
+
+[26:14] of, instead of having an alcoholic drink. Scott writes in, uh, there are de-alcoholized wines that aren't appalling, but what I wanted to share was making your own drink out of the spice,
+
+[26:23] Sumac, Sumac. This is an old idea and is usually referred to as sumac lemonade. You basically steep the sumac in hot or cold water, add sugar to taste. Sumac is high in Malic acid. And so it has a wine like bite to it. The flavor is somewhat woodsy and floral, it makes a very refreshing summertime drink. Sumac grows wild around here. Hes from Guelph, Canada. I wonder whether he's involved with the university. They have a great dairy department there. Yeah, they do. Yeah. The flavor is somewhat woodsy and floral, it makes a very refreshing summertime. drink. Sumac grows wild around here and many people harvest it themselves. Sumac trees grow on the sides of the road and they spread out as clones of the parent. The spice comes from the red cone shaped spears that adorn the tree and you are supposed to harvest them when the weather is dry or the malic acid gets washed off during the rain. I did not know that. I did not. did not know that. I've been tempted to ferment some sumac lemonade, but of course that won't help you if you are up the spout, which I learned last week means
+
+[27:08] pregnant, as well as broken, or pawned. Uh, keep up the awesome show. Scott. Actually, I love Sumac. In fact, one of the flavors of I shouldn't say this. We have, we do a lot of sumac work, which is not for the public yet. I happen to love Sumac a lot. But you work with a lot, Chris? I haven't used Sumac in well. I enjoy it, but I, uh, you know, I think the last time I was using it was when I was working in this
+
+[27:33] for this classic French restaurant, and we were using it with lamb, and I think I made that dish of a few 100 times too
+
+[27:39] many, uh, to want to keep working with Sumac. What do you? I mean, it's kind of a really distinctive flavor that that's interesting. I guess uh, I've just never really had a reason to play with it. Yeah, it's not only Malik. I think there's probably some oxalic in there as well. It's got that kind of like sorely kind of hit to it too. Um, But, uh, but I don't know that. It's just coming off the top of my head, but, you know, it makes, as, you know, ascot points out, it makes fantastic. It makes fantastic still, but it makes really fantastic sparkling drinks.
+
+[28:09] Really good So, something I've, I've, I've made in the past, but I think it's a great non-alcoholic alternative is, is, I'm a huge fan of elderflower blossoms, and maybe that's from my time in England, because it's a pretty popular drink over there, but, uh, if you can get uh, sort of elderflower cordial, uh, the, the syrup, or you can make your own, a blend of that of lemon juice, and then I'll make a, a, a simple syrup infused with uh, Douglas
+
+[28:34] spur, and a blend of, of the lemon juice, the elderflower cordial, um, and the Douglas for a
+
+[28:40] syrup, and then dilute down with water and ice. I think that's a fantastic combination that, uh, uh, has a lot of, sort of, you almost could think of it as sort of the, the, the Riesling of the faux wine world because it's got that really aromatic bouquet, a nice bit of acidity, and and a slight,
+
+[28:57] the, the, the slight resinous pine flavor is a little bit unexpected, but quite pleasant. Yeah, I've never done pine and elderflower. That sounds good though. Um, I wonder, is it really... I think, to bring the 2 together. Is there, is there anything in, I have to, someone do some research and make sure there's nothing in pine tea that pregnant people can't
+
+[29:15] have? Uh, but that sounds delicious. I'd like to I'd like to try that. Another good thing for Sumac. We used to, uh, we used to grind uh, Sumac finer uh, along with uh, the salt and use it uh, as a French fry spice. It's really good on French fries. Uh, you know, it brings some of that acidity to it. And uh, it's almost like, you know, if you're not gonna, if you're not gonna douse your French fries and ketchup, Sumac's nice. I mean, if you're going to douse me in ketchup, it's really no point. Hey, Dave, it's Jack. Hey, Jack. Hey, so I see here women who are pregnant or could become pregnant or advised not to drink pine needle tea in
+
+[29:50] general for fear it could cause abortion. Wow. And Jack, welcome. you were in the studio. Oh, here, yeah, hey, what's up? Hey, Jack. Well, you know, there you have it. But so good if you don't want to have alcohol, maybe not good if you're pregnant. Don't know. Or leave the or leave the pine out. Yeah, leave the pine out. leave the pineale. Because I know I've never done lemon and elderflower, but yuzu an elderflower. I know is delicious with pear, pear juice, with yuzu and elderflower, very good. I mean, carbonate that sucker, too. But here's something that you're going to know more about again, Chris. You got caller, by the way, Dave. Okay, call her. take the collar and then we'll go back to coffee. Call her, you're on the air. Hey guys, it's Chris Kohler from North Carolina. How you doing? Good. First, I wanted to thank Chris for chef steps. He's always answering my questions on the forum and it's a great resource that everybody that listens to this, you know, radio
+
+[30:40] and that likes your blog would absolutely love. Thanks, Chris. Nice to actually hear your voice. Yeah, uh, it's great, you know, getting to ask you guys a question. I just got a bunch of ramps and I want to know what to do with them. I've always kind of avoided them because, you know, I feel like they might be overhyped
+
+[30:57] or that they're like, you know, a little too, you know, whatever, but, uh, what do I do with these things? Well, so Stas hates. Nastasia hates ramps just because other people like them. Just a caveat, right, Stas? That's right Yeah, that's why I've always avoided them. All right, Chris, give me some ramp, give me some ramp, drop some... No, there's obviously the pickled ramps, charred ramps are nice. I would, you know, one of the things I would do is I'd like to make a nice sauce from them. So I would I would char them slightly, uh, puree them and turn them into a fluid gel. So do you have any agar or gelan gum? Yep, got it, Agar. Would you charmed us on the grill or should I just use the blowtorch? Uh, you could do it with a you could do it with a blowtorch. If you check out the chart rapini video on chefsteps.com, you'll, uh, you'll sort of see a nice technique that we use, and so I just give them, uh, a, a, a, a light charring, then, then puree
+
+[31:51] them, uh, I would let them down with a little bit of water rather than uh, a stock, just because I think the flavor is fantastic, uh, adjust the seasoning. And then if you wanted sort of a, a, a thicker puree that, that, uh, that you could drag that would stand up and have some body to it. With Agar. I'd probably set it with about one% and then puree it, um,
+
+[32:13] and, and civet. Uh, if you had jelly and gum, you might be able to go down to about
+
+[32:18] .75% for a, for a fairly thick puree. But what's nice about the fluid gel is it's not going to be gloopy or clowing in the
+
+[32:25] mouth is going to be very clean and really let the charged of ramp flavor come through. One thing, though, is definitely, don't add the salt or any acid to the puree until right before serving or you're going to end up just coloring the sort of vibrant green. green appearance. Cool. Yeah, and one other thing in general, when you're using ingredients like that is, since you're going to have, since you're going to charge
+
+[32:46] extra for them, and people want to know what they taste like, and they're expensive, and they only come around once in a while, usually you should use them in things that highlight them. I mean, that's, you know, just common practice when you say... Yeah. You know, it's, it's, you know, there, yes, that's true and I agree with that. The other thing, though, is people can get a little bit overly precious, and so if you sort of follow to its logical conclusion, you get this sort of farce of, of, of, of, of a cooked ramp on a plate with nothing
+
+[33:13] else, um, because, because it's so special that we have to highlight. It's like, uh, you can do a little bit more to it and still really show up the ramp. What you might end up doing is composing a couple different textures. So the pickled ramp, the ramp puree, um, you know,
+
+[33:28] some, some, some, some very thinly sliced ramp, um, all of those could be, could be really nice. What do you call that dish? You call that rampant up? I'll leave the puns to you. Yeah. Yeah. Again, we at Booker Intacts are the world expert punis. Yeah. All right. What do you like? What do you like for ramps? What do you like pairing rams with? Well, I don't, I don't, I've never, uh, I never used them uh, at the French culinary, uh, because I just never did. I would only ever cook them at home. And so then I usually just, I just do them as a, as a side, I do like
+
+[34:05] a, uh, like a quick saute, and then a little bit of sugar down like I would with uh, asparagus, salt, and like a little bit of correction with acidity at the very end as it comes out and just serve them kind of glazed and wilted like that. But because I'm doing it at home, you know? Well, 2 things just came to my mind, Chris, actually. Somebody in our forum mentioned that if you have a lot of ramp to do about like a £10 case, ramp kimchi, and that sounds fantastic. So that would be very cool. sounds really good. The other idea that comes to mind is it's going to definitely ship the flavor a bit, but if you do end up making a ramp puree. Enrich it with a little schmaltz, a little a little roast chicken fat. And that's just going to make it incredibly delicious. You just wanted to say schmaltz, Chris. I did. Actually, I have a notepad here with words that I want to get into our conversation. It's sort of the subliminal programming going on. Well, Schmaltz is a good one. You know, people don't have the schmalz on the table anymore. That's like so old school. I think Sammy's Romanian is the last restaurant in New York where you can go have like
+
+[35:09] the big thing of schmaltz on the table. Well, and it's it's really easy to do. If you if you take like your roast chicken carcass and then pressure cook the heck out of it, you're going to have all this fat on the
+
+[35:21] top and most people throw that out, which that's kind of a crime. I mean, you should you should skim that off and save it because roast chicken fat's awesome. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, it is. It's delicious product. All right, so I hope that answers the ramp question. Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks, Chris. That's the great work. Thank you. All right. You know there's a schmaltz brewing company? that can't that can't be good. I don't want Schmaltz in my beer, Jack. There is. I did not watch them all. I mean, like, I will go places other people will not, but Schmaltz, my beer, is not one. Although, I will taste it. If someone ever hears this, who can get a hand their hand on a can of schmaltz beer, set it our way, and we'll definitely, I'll get bread and schmaltz and drink the schmaltz beer with it. Uh, okay. All right, here we go, Chris. Coffee, right? For those of you who don't know, I think because I think people don't really know, and this is actually an interesting question, although we shouldn't spend too much time on it because we have a bunch of actual questions to get through, but... Maybe we can take a quick break too, unless you want to squeeze this out.
+
+[36:18] Yeah, that squeeze us out for a second. So like the, uh, in the modernist cuisine, there are certain sections that different ones of you in the, you know, in the big one had more of a hand in because it's kind of more of your
+
+[36:29] thing. You had a giant hand in the coffee section, correct? why I'm pestering with the coffee questions. Yeah, no, I, I, I, I, I, I'm a big fan of coffee, I, I would like to say that I stood on the shoulder of some giant people like Jim Hoffman, uh, World Reef champ
+
+[36:45] and, and run square mile coffee in London and Tim Wendelbow. I had some, uh, some really wonderful people, uh, help out extensively with that chapter, but, uh,
+
+[36:54] we, it's at least something I'm passionate about. they tried to make it a great chapter. Right. So now there's 2 questions we have from last week that I didn't
+
+[37:02] answer, one on mocha pots and one on arrow presses, but before I get into it, Let me just say that my, my, uh, you know, expertise, if you can call it that in coffee, is almost exclusively related to
+
+[37:13] uh, espresso shots, because that's what I drink, and that's all I drink. I drink a lot of it, but that's what I make and that's what I think about a lot. But before we even get into this, I think everyone should probably go check out, if you don't
+
+[37:28] mean modernist cuisine, I read it the section on coffee actually today, but also go to look at VST, Mojo to Go, and what they have done with like linking refractometers and initial coffee weights to kind of targeting where your brew is, and probably read Scott
+
+[37:47] Reyes' book on everything but espresso. If you're interested in kind of the mechanics of non-espresso brewing. Would you agree with that factor? No. I would actually recommend both the Scott Reyes books. I think they're 2 of the best books written on the subject and certainly influenced our thinking on coffee. So, but his everything, but a special book. I think is the standard by which other books will be judged. I wish ours was not good. Right. But I mean, so I mean, the key is, and we're going to talk here about arrow press and mocha pots. But the key is to is to understand that each one of these things has a lot of variables involved in
+
+[38:24] it, and each type of coffee maker that people still use on a regular
+
+[38:28] basis can make a delicious cup of coffee. However, they're not interchangeable and they won't make the same cup of coffee. And so the question is figuring out how to control the variables accurately to get it consistent and the best of that style of coffee that you can get.
+
+[38:43] Would you agree with that, Chris, or no? Yeah, I think that's what's interesting about it is, you know, you have this raw material, but depending on how you extract the, the, literally 100s, if not 1000s of compounds in it, you get a very different drinking experience, and, and to those who care about coffee, it can be incredibly
+
+[39:01] interesting that something as simple as the difference between a pour over and a French press give you such a very different outcome. Now, on the, on the French press variant up to new, newer style AeroPress, the 1st question. Hopefully an easier question, this is also from a person who doubled up on a question. I recently acquired an arrow press and a burgrinder. This is why the acquisition of additional materials would lead to a domestic dispute.
+
+[39:25] So what we're told is he cannot purchase a more expensive machine other than the
+
+[39:29] AeroPress and the Bergrinder that he has. And I've been experimenting with different amounts of coffee, different grinds, and different water temperatures. Small changes seem to make a big difference to the taste. I would greatly appreciate your comments on how the various factors affect the result. The AeroPress website suggested making a very concentrated initial brew and watering it down will get a better result than adding more water. Why is this? Also, why does grind size seem to make such a difference? One post I found online recommends inverting the press and very carefully making sure that the foam on top of the coffee made its way into the final cup. Although you don't like that stuff, right, Chris? That stuff that floats up, you're not a fan, right? I'm not a huge fan of breaking. I like to skim the raft off. Um, in the case of French press before, uh, before plunging it to prevent it from sort of overbrewing and over extracting while it sits on the
+
+[40:14] table. Right, right. Well, in fact, the person who wrote the question, Alex also agrees with that because they found the results of the turning it upside down a bit oily and harsh, but perhaps my
+
+[40:22] palate is immature, says Alex, or perhaps I need better beans. Any advice? I enjoy tinkering with different options, but would love to understand the basics of what's going on with different grind sizes, temperatures, and concentrations. Keep up the good work. Alex from Toronto. Well, I mean, very, very simply put in in an arrow press. When you do the AeroPress, I do, I do a full stir down, let it sit and then, and then do the fresh extraction. Is that what you do or no? I mean, that would be what I do because you're putting it through a through an extremely fine membrane filter. So the idea of it sort of over extracting once you, once you
+
+[40:54] essentially, uh, uh, um, strain it, as it were, uh, it's irrelevant. So, yeah, a stir down there for even wetting of the grounds and a
+
+[41:03] more, uh, uh, in a sort of a more uniform extraction is going to help. This is one of these things where you can very easily start chasing your tail. Um, and uh, and I'll, infer to say that I've, I've used arrow presses. I, I, I like them. I think they're interesting. There's a lot of great techniques online. Um, but I'm not an expert on AirPress because I don't make it all that often. Um, you know, a couple things that I can point out is the water temperature has a huge impact. Generally speaking, the cooler your water, the more acidic you're going to get, the hotter your water, the more you will pend towards the bitter side. Um, something around 98 Celsius. I think the aeropress folks actually recommend a slightly lower temperature. Um, but something in the upper 90s is going to be about right. You'll have to find where that sweet spot is for you with everything else held constant. But in general, as you lower the water temperature, you're going to tend to find it more acidic, and maybe a little bit under extracted, and as
+
+[41:58] it's hot or water, it's going to get a little more bitter and over extracted. Right, and the finer the grind, the faster you will extract, and the course of the grind is little. Finer grind tend to, you know, favor, over extraction,
+
+[42:10] course, grinds, favor, under extraction, that interacts with water temperature as does contact time. So the problem is you kind of have to choose which of those you're going to keep fixed. Well, you adjust the others, otherwise you start to get really befuddled and lose track of
+
+[42:25] where you are and what you're trying to tweak. And in the arrow press, the quantity of water you add to the quantity of coffee should not change the extraction appreciably because you're not getting close to any sort of
+
+[42:38] equilibrium. That should just change how strong the coffee is relative to pure water.
+
+[42:43] Would you agree with that or no? Yeah, it's going to change your brew strength. And this is what the guys at extract modo have done some phenomenal work is most people tend to tend to, you know, it's surprising how tight the
+
+[42:55] ranges that people actually consider sort of a well-balanced cup. And, you know, you can use a refractometer actually quantify this and say that you actually want to get sort of, you know, an 18 or so
+
+[43:08] percent extraction from the grounds, um, that would be for espresso. I actually suspect it will be similar for, uh, for, for aero
+
+[43:17] press, but I've never really looked. Yeah, I mean, the rail numbers are between around 18 and 22 for non-expressive. between 18 and 22. Uh, you know, And that varies a little bit culturally. Norwegians, like, you know, what I've heard is Norwegians and Scandinavians, they were slightly higher. They also like... Americans, I think, are tend to be 18, 19% of our friend Jeffrey Steingarten told me I'm a fool for liking 18%. Why, what does he like? Uh, higher. Yeah, sounds like Jeffrey. That sounds like Jeffrey. But of course, the Elys like it lower, right? That's why Ely's use like the actual Ely family. And you should also go look at espresso, the chemistry, the chemistry of qualities. A great book on espresso only. I mean, it came out a long time ago, so I don't know kind of how up to date it is, but they
+
+[44:03] favor kind of very low numbers. They use, you know, very, like, longer shots with lower, uh, lower initial doses, but... Yeah, they talk. I mean, if you talk in terms of sort of brew ratio with espresso, like, and that, what massive a shot do you get out of from what massive ground in a particular time frame?
+
+[44:23] And, you know, that you'll find that the Italians in general sort of like, um, you know, something that's, it's, it's, uh, uh, usually they'll use smaller dosing to begin with, and they'll, they'll pull a slightly faster
+
+[44:36] shot, and the brew ratio won't be quite the same as what,
+
+[44:39] what, they'll do like, you know, closer to 2 to one brew ratio. So maybe a 7 gram dose, get a 14 gram shot out. Whereas you have a tendency in this country because we drown our beverages in so much
+
+[44:52] milk to use much higher dosing, maybe 18 or 20 grams, and then like a one and, you know, this will
+
+[44:59] vary depending on style, but, you know, somewhere closer to like a one. 5 maybe even towards the restrato of a one to one brew ratio and it's going to make a much, much stronger coffee. Um, maybe even a little bit better. You're going to lose some of the acidity, some of the floral note. But then if you drown it in a gallon of milk, it has a chance of sort of standing out. Yeah, but even as the, so, I mean, you know, Ily, Andrea Ily told me once, yeah, when I asked him, so, and we're talking now like 10 years ago. So, you know, kind of in the early period of the huge expansion in
+
+[45:28] the in the coffee scene out where you are in Seattle, I guess you weren't there at that time, but you are from that
+
+[45:33] area. whatever. So, uh, and, you know, he, I said, what do you think about what these guys are doing on the west coast of New
+
+[45:39] York of the US where they're using much higher dose rates than you are and pulling shorter shots? And as you say,
+
+[45:46] he's, you know, he's like, the florals are going to be reduced. I happen to think that a circa 2003, you know, like kind of pan West Coast, so take Vivace as like kind of the one that we all kind of heard about over here, right?
+
+[46:01] That kind of a shot. I loved that kind of a shot, like 2002, like that kind of a shot. I thought was amazing. The last time I was out there a couple years ago, like these kind of like skim coat shots where they're like hyper dosing it and pulling out like way less than an ounce. I don't know about that style. What do you think? I'm not actually a fan of that style. I, uh, I, I probably prefer something closer to 18 gram dose, pulled in, depends on the coffee, but around 27 or so, you know, 2024 to 27 seconds, and I generally like to get like, uh, more towards like a
+
+[46:38] one.6, one.7 brew ratio. It's not, it's not an Italian style, but it's not this really overdosed. Um, uh, you know, sort of hyper restrato shot that uh, that, that's become fairly fashionable. Is there any snap back on the west coast back towards like slightly more normal shot volumes or no? Yeah, uh, I, I would say actually there's an interesting trend going
+
+[47:01] on, it, it places, um, like Millstead Coffee. There's a great, uh, an up and coming, uh, uh, young barista named Andrew
+
+[47:08] Milstead who runs this place in Fremont, and he's basically going back towards smaller, uh, smaller, you know, if you order a, a,
+
+[47:16] a, a cappuccino. going to get a 5 ounce cup there. And so when you start reducing the amount of milk you're serving. It allow you to sort of start bringing these shot doses down and the brewing ratios to, you know, maybe more normal levels or levels that really sort of maximize bringing out the florals and
+
+[47:33] and, and, and the various aroma, aroma notes you get in the coffee and away from this shot that's really just designed to stand out
+
+[47:40] in 24 ounces of hot milk. David got a squeeze a break in here. We have to have a break. have to, yes. All right, right, right. Commercial break. be right back with Chris Young.
+
+[48:00] This is Chris Young, co author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant
+
+[48:11] Crilley, we've created something exciting and new at Chef Steps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love. And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible.
+
+[48:28] At chefsteps.com. We publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the
+
+[48:39] kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team, as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, chefsteps.com is entirely free to learn. How's that for an ad? There you go. All right, Chris, you still with us, right? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, cool. So another question also from an Alex, different one. Alex Gordetski writes in about mocha pots, which actually, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and say this. I don't drink mocha pot coffee, but the real problem with mocha pots is that people
+
+[49:22] have linked the word espresso to the mocha pot and they're just entirely different types of coffee, right? I mean, they're just not the same thing, right? And I've never taken the time to get a good mocha cup, but apparently people who like it, like it. Yeah, so I'm going to say I've been given like 3 mocha pots in my lifetime is a gift. Um, and it appears to be sort of this cult, that people who have mocha pots, it's like Tupperware or something. It's like you, they give you a mocha pot and it's like join us and I've never had a good cup of coffee out of a mocha pot. It might be possible, but I've never had it, and so I've never really captivated my interest in, and then there's just people who are, who love mocha pot. They sort of make me feel like I'm joining a cult so I've sort of shunned them. Right. Well, well, I think the thing is, is that, you know, there's a lot to control. Wait, well, let's I'll go with the question here. Okay. So we've been using this stovetop Italian mocha coffee maker for many years and we love it for a variety of reasons. So maybe Alex is also a member of the cult. don't know. Had some questions to see if we can make the mocha coffee better. First, grind. We have been grinding between espresso, espresso and Turkish. That is too fine. That is too fine for a mocha pot. All the indications that I have are that you want to go slightly coarser uh, than uh, slightly coarser than espresso. Um, water. We use tap water. Whether or not tap water is good depends on which tap you have. Uh, you know, like kind of, you know, New York City water is a little bit too soft, I think most people would say,
+
+[50:52] but uh, I don't know how Seattle water must be good. That must be one of the reasons why the coffee stuff took off over there, right? Everybody's got reverse osmosis filters on their line in Seattle. Oh really? And then do they re- do they... In the water is perfectly good here, but, um, you know, it seems that
+
+[51:08] what I, the numbers I've heard thrown around is something like 150 uh, PPMs
+
+[51:13] of, of, of, of some of your, your hard generals. Basically, if you were to go get like volvic water or or dishani or some
+
+[51:20] sort of name brand pretty middle of the road water. That's about perfect for coffee and people will go into fairly great effort of making sure their tap water is about that. Right. And then, uh, Alex asked, would it be better with hot tap, a top water, any other tips would be useful as well. Now, neither Chris nor I are mocha heads, as we said. However, Stumptown coffee has a good little thing. If you go on their website on using the mocha podcast. They say, you want to preheat the water before you put it into the mocha pot. This makes sense because it means it's less time on the stove and less time to dry heat your coffee grounds, which is not a good thing. Uh, they also say that the, one of the most important things when you're doing mocha pot work is to keep the lid of it open so that you can look down on it so that as soon as it starts blonding out on the extraction, you can pull it off before you over extract
+
+[52:09] out of it. And then the other thing that they say is to wrap a wet towel to stop the extraction at that point almost
+
+[52:14] instantly. I would say easier would be just to have like a pan of cold water next to
+
+[52:19] it that you could just put the whole bottom of the, yeah, just quench it. And that's something I hadn't thought of, and that's probably a good, good technique. So I think if you add those, that's probably going to boost your stuff. Go to the top. I would use a coarser grind. And I think like those, I mean, I'm almost, you know, intrigued now to go out and go out and try
+
+[52:38] it. You know, one of the things that's false about. Everyone who's against it says, well, you're boiling the water, therefore the water is too hot,
+
+[52:45] therefore it can't possibly make good coffee. But the fact of the matter is, is that from the one or 2 people I've seen who've done kind of initial measurements of the temperature, it's actually by the time it's getting through your coffee
+
+[52:55] grounds no longer boiling and not that far above what it would be in a good espresso machine.
+
+[53:00] So, you know, this is all stuff that can be tweaked out. Yeah, my guess is, you know, I'm sort of taken this weird attitude towards Moga Pots. I'm sure it's possible to make a pretty good cup and I'm sort of spoiled that I have a nice espresso machine at my disposal. I have all these other things, so I've never really looked at it, but I think you're right. I can't see why you'd want it finer. I, because I think you're having a longer extraction period. You'd actually rather have a slightly coarser grind, which is going to give you a slightly bigger margin for air of under versus over extracting, and that, and with something like a mocha
+
+[53:35] pot, where you have to quench it, to try to stop the extraction. Having anything that gives you a little more wiggle room is going to be worthwhile. I agree. Hey Dave, quick tweet. Yep. Just FYI, Schmaltz beer doesn't actually have Schmaltz in it. They're just using it, you know, using the term. They do blood Jewish beers like Hebrew and things of that nature. All I'm saying is send it our way. That's all I'm saying You just want beer. I just want beer. I'll drink it with I'll drink it with Jimmy Carbone. We'll have some beer together. Okay. So, uh, Brian in San Francisco. This is a good one, Chris. I've wasted many cups of olive oil, grapeseed oil, and sunflower oil trying to make mayonnaise from scratch. I follow the recipe from Sirius Eats Food Lab with the immersion blender, and it comes out liquidy. I've also followed McGee's advice from Keys to Good Cooking about using another yoke to save it, but I couldn't. I've also tried the old-fashioned way with a whisk. Please give me a foolproof recipe for mayo also. What about adding flavors, garlic, mustard, and making holidays, bourlaise, and other A's style sauces. Finally, how long will it keep in the fridge? The Japanese don't refrigerate theirs. What's up with that? Thanks, Brian, San Francisco. Okay, 1st of all, mayonnaise is unsafe when it's made, unless you pasteurize the eggs. However, the longer it sits, assuming you've used the correct acid ratios in the manufacturer of it, the safer it gets. So that's why in New Orleans, people don't die from eating the mayonnaise that's been sitting out all day. But initially made mayonnaise is not safe, and you can always, as modernist cuisine will tell you, or as Chris will tell you, or as I will tell you, it's very simple to pasteurize the egg yolks before you use
+
+[55:04] them and they still make a good mayonnaise, correct? Yep, they make great mayonnaise. Okay. Now, this technique on what's it called on, on, um, that Kenji Alt did on, uh, on the blog
+
+[55:16] there on the food network, uh, not food network, what's it called? Food Lab is really cool. What he does, Chris, and I don't know if you've seen the video. What have you got? Yeah. So what he does is he takes an immersion blender cup, puts
+
+[55:26] an a single egg yolk in it, a tablespoon of water, which is a mistake because water doesn't add
+
+[55:32] flavor. I would add a flavorful liquid, but you know, whatever. I think it was just because that's what he did, whatever. I'm not going to get it. Little vinegar would be nice in there, maybe some mustard. Yeah, yeah, well, he has also adds mustard, but like just straight water, like came out with like a flavorless, because I just did it today, flavorless mayonnaise. And then he puts it into a the actual cup that comes with the immersion blender. And that turns out to be the key. So what happens is you put the immersion blender in the bottom. You hit it. And because the egg yolk is sitting at the bottom underneath the blades, you actually are slowly adding the oil to it.
+
+[56:02] It makes us an emulsion before the bulk of the oil face starts getting mixed into it. And you can make a very stiff, banged out awesome mayonnaise in like, in nothing flat. It's actually amazing. It's really kind of amazing. So, like, that's the way I'm, when I was garmagee chef at the fat dog. That's like the way I made our mayonnaise twice a day for for service. So, um, I, I, I was unaware this was even a technique. Yeah, yeah. Well, but here's the thing. It's easy to mess up because, uh, so the results
+
+[56:34] are getting too liquidy when Brian 1st said he was also too liquidy, my initial assumption was you didn't use enough oil, right? Because we all know that like you actually... The oil thickens it as you as you as you bulk it up. Bingo. But I did as, so then I, as an alternate test, I also did it by adding, you know,
+
+[56:51] the, I added the ingredients in all different orders. Uh, I added, you know, very, very high proof, uh, you know, 10% uh, Scandinavian vinegar to see
+
+[57:00] whether, or no, Polish vinegar to see whether or not overaceting the yolk could mess it and it couldn't. It was all perfect. But then I made the recipe in a court container instead of in the actual immersion blender
+
+[57:10] cup, and it did not work because it created too much mixing of the yoke and the oil before a stable emulsion was formed. So the key to that technique is to use the actual cup that the immersion blender came with, or if you've lost that, use a mixing tin for like a like a tall cocktail mixing
+
+[57:31] tank, because I tested it in that as well. Yeah, you just you just want a cup. We're down at the bottom of it, it's not the diameter isn't much bigger than the diameter of the end of the stick blender. And, you know, you can start with all the
+
+[57:43] oil, or if you're, if you haven't practiced this, you can put a little bit of oil, and it almost sort of chop it up to get that initial emulsion, and then get the rest of the oil in and just start blending from the bottom slowly pulling up.
+
+[57:53] And, uh, you know, I've, I've always found that's a very easy way to get a, a thick thing. So if he's having trouble, my guess too big of a container. Yeah, because I, it was in, I tried it 4 times in a court container, it's not possible to do it in something that's too wide at the bottom. Anyway. Oh, so I am being told that we are out of time. So I have a question about souffle with acid. Do you have anything for stabilizing a high acid souffle other than making sure that
+
+[58:21] the base isn't too hot when you put the acid ingredient in before you fold the egg whites, Chris? Um, Not off the top of my head, you know, my general reaction when people want to talk about stabilizing the souffle, they generally mean they don't want it to
+
+[58:40] collapse, and the problem is if you make a souffle so stable that it doesn't collapse, it's a cake, not a souffle
+
+[58:45] anymore. Um, but you're talking about being able to add a, a high acid into, into the egg base before baking. Yeah. I mean, I mean, well, I'll talk him a little bit more about it next week. Mark Jensen also wrote in with a great use of his leftover 64 degree eggs. He makes a hollandaise without having to pre-cook and modernist cuisine style. So I'll talk about that. That's good use. Uh, and then we had someone who was having problems with their creme anglaise. Tom Fisher will get to you next week. So I'm sorry we didn't get to finish all the questions, but that's just we have so many good questions and good colors in. And you got to talk to us about the cereal puff for next week too. Oh, yeah, we have a new puffing gun, Chris, next time you're in the city for the summertime coming. I'm extremely envious. So maybe a trip to New York to come out and play with your toys. Well, you know, you guys, you know, chef steps is willing to, like, chef steps comes out here, you guys can make your own proprietary puffed snack mix in our puffer, you know,
+
+[59:40] in the museum's puffer would be awesome. Also, we shipped a we shipped a beta test unit of the sears all out to you guys. You guys get it yet? I will check the game. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm interested. I was very interested to see the results you had on blowtorching and that,
+
+[59:56] that, uh, you know, you, you might be proving us wrong, that we've got to reduce some revisions to MC. All right. Well, see what you think about it. and let me just say this. For those of you that still cook foie gras out there, this sears all, this is ridiculous on the foie gras. And Chris, thanks for coming speaking with us, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:00:24] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You are listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org, a nonprofit member supported radio
+
+[0:20] station, where 1000000s strong. With folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education, we are entertainment. We are the future of food. May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving P newsletters, advanced invite, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show.
+
+[0:54] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Damo, your host of Quick Eaters coming to delay from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage
+
+[1:01] Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joining the studio today with us, Dr. Hammer Lopez, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you doing, guys? Good, man. I had to switch up the theme music this week. Yeah, I noticed that. But, like, it's like, you know, people, they not only does Nastasia like to keep me on her toes, but Jack and Joe
+
+[1:19] in the engineering both like to keep me on my toes because, yeah, you're ready for one, you get the other. That's how life goes, call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Before I get started, you know, in the audience, you probably won't care, but here in the studio, you'll enjoy this. So guess why I was late today. I was actually Slade to be on time today. Guess. Well, it wasn't the train because you rode a bike. That's right. don't know. Bike ticket. Oh, man, really? Yeah, yeah. bike ticket. What? Well, I was trying to, so believe this or not, which you probably won't. Like, I normally take a route that the, but the bike, the bike program on a computer tells me to go from my house to the studio, and there's one really unsafe intersection, so they didn't attempt to go around, not use that
+
+[2:02] intersection. I went down another place and went down like for like half a block, which is my maximum. No, Brooklyn, a one way street, and the cops were like, woo! And hit me with, and they're getting smarter because they no longer hand out motor vehicle tickets to bikes, which is what they used to
+
+[2:20] do, so any biker could just go to court and say, Yo, Yana, I was on a bike. A bike is not a motor vehicle. Sorry. And then like, you know what I mean? And that was it. But they have a new kind of summons, but here's where they get you. I can't pay by mail. I have to physically go to court. Well, you can go online and plead not guilty, right? No, no. What? This is new kind of ticket. They're trying to shaft bikers into actually having to go to court like none of us work or anything. Hey, look, I was breaking the traffic regulations like, great. Although it's a little bit of an insult to have a ticket for the privilege of riding these Brooklyn Rhodes, as Neil Diamond would say, which, by the way, much as I don't hate
+
+[3:00] Brooklyn the way Nastasia hates, I have, I think Brooklyn's fine. The worst roads that I have seen on the
+
+[3:07] east coast of the United States. You agree with me, Jack? Joe? Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean, especially in the bike lane where we're forced to drive. It's like, imagine if amusement park rides weren't fun. Imagine, like, the biggest moguls you've ever seen skiing, and those are that is Bushwick, people. That's what that's what it's like. I drive a car and I basically have to get new breaks every like, you know, six, 7 months or something. Yeah, yeah. And all the cars trying to avoid the potholes and trying not to bottom and scrape theirself out. Nothing more fun for them than to run into a biker who's trying to go next to them, you know, in their in their normal spot. You know what I'm saying? So I'm proud to have my money, my ticket, penalty money, go towards supporting the awesome roads of Brooklyn. All right, let's start off with some, hey, look, my fault, though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all right. And my usual trick of just, you know, being extremely honest about what I was doing and nicely, the officers didn't work on this one. These guys are there to hand out fregan tapegets. They're on an anti-bike. The guy literally said, if you want to break the law, get off the bike and walk across. I wouldn't have given you the ticket. I'm like, what? What? Okay. Okay. This is not a show about biking. Okay. Here are some questions in from before. Tom Fisher wrote in last week. I tried making sous vide creme anglaise using this method on your site. That would be cookingissues.com. Everything went fine until I tried to bag the mixture. It seems like the blending incorporated far too much air into the mix. And the 1st time I tried to bag the mix, it quickly doubled in volume. I made a huge mess before I could go on, let me just tell you what the procedure is, right? So people know what the hell I'm talking about. So when we make, you know, when you make your normal creme anglaise, you know, you're careful, you stir it, you don't get me air into it, you temper the
+
+[4:49] egg, you go, blah, blah, blah. When you're making it, uh, sous vide, uh, or low temp, what you do
+
+[4:54] is you, you throw, I'll give you my recipe, you throw 10 egg yolks into a blender, you throw 170 grams of sugar in there, a little bit
+
+[5:02] of salt, whatever flavorings you might want to add. You don't have to add to things like vanilla later because they're going to be in a bag and they won't vitalize off. Then you're gonna add 500 mils of uh, milk and 500 mils of uh, heavy cream. And actually, what I do is I add the milk. I don't add the cream in the blender step. I had the milk, turn on the blender on high, blends it. It does aerate it, which is the source of the, one of the sources of the problem with Tom's anglaise mixture here. And but it also breaks up the alaza on the egg yolks so that you don't need to strain your
+
+[5:36] creme anglaise after. The 2 big advantages of, well, the 3 big advantages. Well, some of the big advantages of doing creme anglaise, low temperature sous vide are, one, if you use a blender, you don't need to strain it because, one, there's
+
+[5:50] no alaza in it. And two, when you're cooking low temp, you're never going to curdle it. So there's no little curdles of egg yolk that you need to strain out, right? So you get rid of that whole straining nonsense. That's one big advantage. Two, flavors are preserved very well in the bag and certain flavors like cinnamon. It's really easy to get that awesome kind of red hot cinnamon flavor. You like red hot rice sauce? Yeah, see? something she likes. See, I know the secret things that she likes, like red hots. So I could have won that pork chop, whatever it is we gave away. So anyway, so it gives you that red hot thing because the vacuum intensifies the extraction, flavor out of spices like that. Uh, cinnamon. And another advantage is extremely hygienic, right? Because you don't need to pour it into something and then cool it very quickly. You can just take the bag, put the bag in ice water, chill it down. And three, because you've killed all the vegetative cells in
+
+[6:42] it, when the cooking, right, you haven't sterilized it, so it's not safe, you know, not refrigerated, but it lasts
+
+[6:48] an extremely long time. So these are some of the benefits. However, so what I do is I blend the milk, the egg yolks, the sugar, the salt, and maybe the flavoring. Then I add the cream and just put the blender on low to stir it to combine because you don't want to froth it up too much because that's stuff you have to get rid of later. Now, to finish the rest of his question. So remember, he has Tom was having problems, it was blowing up and making a huge mess, which is true, right? Okay, after cleaning, sorry, Tom, that cleaning sucks. Cleaning creme anglaise, make sure out of the bottom of your vacuum machine sucks. really sucks. After cleaning, I moved the mix to a hotel pan and tried to de-erate it in the vacuum sealer. But even after many cycles, the mix still had a frothy, bubbly texture. It's true. I eventually bagged it in ziplocs and circulated the mix and it came out, fine, where did I go wrong? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Okay, here a couple of things. One, creme anglaise bubbles like a weasel, and there's just no way around that, right? If you are going to deer rate in a pan beforehand, which I don't, by the way, but if you are going to do it, you have to start with extremely thin mixtures in the
+
+[7:45] hotel, when I say thin thickness, not like thin consistency. mixtures in the hotel pan, like a couple of milliliters and do it in 4 batches, then you can get a full rise, bubble pop, drop, and boil out of a
+
+[7:56] creme anglaise in a vacuum machine. Not a heat boil. I don't want to hear anyone talk to me about heat boil. not heat boil. just a vacuum boil. And you can do it. However, what I like what I normally do is I remove all of the plastic thingamajig, like things that look like cutting boards, the
+
+[8:12] space, or take them all out. Do not use a bagging attachment. This is worthless. In a normal, like, uh, like 10 or 12 inch wide vacuum bag, uh, I guess 10, I think 10. Only put half a liter of product into it, or, you know, like basically, if you make the liter batch with 10 egg yolks, 170 grams more than a liter, half in each bag,
+
+[8:33] right? Put the bag over the edge of the vacuum machine and then cut a hole in between the seal bar and the edge of the machine to let the air come out.
+
+[8:42] This way, you have the maximum expansion room in the bag before the mixture starts boiling out all over the vacuum machine.
+
+[8:48] Gives you the maximum space for it to inflate. Right? Then drop the lid. Oh, the other thing, I'm sure your mix wasn't cold enough. It's vitally important that you use cold, cold, cold, uh, egg yolks, cold, cold, cold milk, cold, cold, cold cream. The sugar is never cold, usually, unless you do your mise en place beforehand and throw it in the fridge for a while, but very few people do that unless you're working for demos.
+
+[9:08] So sometimes when I'm doing demos, I'm fortunate enough to be able to have the sugar be cold like that. You've already aerated it in the vacuum machine. So even though it's cold, it's going to want to boil over a lot. So what you do is, you close it, and then you wait. Keep your finger on the stop button. Just keep your finger there. Do not take your finger off. It's going to start sucking a vacuum, right? And then all of a sudden it's going to start boiling up a little bit and you're like, oh, I'm okay, right? It's okay. No problem. And then, boom. It's gonna make a run for the border and start spraying up out of the back at that instant, right before the mixture hits the seal bar. Boom, hit stop. Boom. As soon as you hit stop, the seal bar stops, seals it and stops any more of the egg mixture from coming out, right? Now, you haven't getting rid of all of the air in there. So it will get some flotation in your in your bath, which is why you should weight it down and crush it down, but it's good enough. And it gets rid of, and then the further cooking is going to pop the rest of those air bubbles, and so you do not have a frothy mixture when you're done, right?
+
+[10:04] You simply don't. Now, if you do pack your stuff in a zippy, right, I've noticed that it
+
+[10:10] cooks, it's fine, and you don't have as many problems with, you know, with the overflow, like you say, but there are a couple of other unintended consequences.
+
+[10:19] First, there's more, you're not getting hardly any air out from the blending step when you do it in a zippy. So what you're going to have to do is let it sit for a while for the air to kind of like come to the surface and then kind of re-get that air out in the zippy before you cook. One, two,
+
+[10:33] uh, in side by side taste tests. I've noticed that creme anglaise, not with that's been put in a blender, one, and
+
+[10:40] it's cooked in a zippy without using a vacuum, has more of a cooked egg flavor, more of a sulfurous cooked egg flavor than a creme anglaise cooked in a vacuum bag. That's just been our experience. We've tasted it side by side. It's not that it's bad. It's that if you taste it side by side, you would always choose the one that in a vacuum
+
+[10:56] bag. And, uh, was there another thing? Oh, last but not least, vacuum bags are extreme. I mean, sorry, zippies are extremely fragile at
+
+[11:06] creme anglaise temperatures and they feel really, really flimsy. Now, this is kind of dovetail into what John Riper wrote into us a couple weeks ago, but I haven't had a chance to read yet. Uh, there's no safety issue as far as S.C. Johnson
+
+[11:20] wax, uh, uh, a family company is concerned. But there is a possibility of structural failure. Okay? So there you have it. Now, on to John Riper, who sent us the, uh, the awesome, uh,
+
+[11:32] Du Chili, uh, Filberts, Slatio Filberts, a hazelnut, right? You like those suckers, right? They look like wood. They're kind of awesome. I'm gonna talk about those more in-depth. John sent me on a little bit of a native nutcick. I'm on a kind of, even though they're not native, with a name like do chili. How is that going to be native anyway, but they're important, but whatever. They old. They're heritage varieties. But I became interested very recently in hickory nuts, Shagbark, Shellbark, Hickory nuts, and also butternuts, which is a white walnut. You know what I mean? Anyway, so interested in that stuff. You can't get butternuts this time of year, anyone that had them is sold out and the supply is extremely rare because all the white walnut trees are dying because
+
+[12:06] of, well, because they're dying from disease. It's kind of a horrible story. But I do have some, even though it's also very hard to get hickory nuts at this point. I'm getting some hickory nuts in. So we'll test those, we'll play around with some native nuts, and then we'll talk about it. Yeah? Sure. You excited about the hickory nuts? Oh, man. How could you not be excited about the H nuts? It's like, it's like the hickory knot is supposed to be as good as the pecan, like as good as the pecan. Like some people say even better than the pecan, and yet nobody uses it anymore because it's more difficult to harvest and they're more difficult to crack.
+
+[12:34] It's like, it's like, you know, I've grown up my whole life thinking that southerners have a lock on native nuts. The pecan being, you know, fundamentally a gift from heaven. And here I find out later that us northerners also have a, you know, a godlike gift from
+
+[12:51] heaven, the Shagbark Hickory. And I'm 42 freaking years old and I never had one. Is there any justice in that? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. My iPad decided that it didn't want to work. Okay, there we go. So anyway, so John wrote in. not about the nuts. He said, I've been meaning to write the attached letter. He wrote an attached letter, which I don't have here, to SC Johnson. ever since Dave shared their email about safe cooking with Ziploc bags a few weeks ago. In my experience, it's pretty rare for big corporations to go out on a limb over much of anything, so it's worth applauding when they do. More useful, though, is the chance they'd throw some sponsor support your wave. See, hearing that, SC Johnson, if they're not, they don't listen. They don't know. They don't care. But I am glad that they did write us that email saying that zippies were okay to use. And I haven't got any pushback from that. Have we had any emails saying that we're bad people because of that? I mean, we've had emails saying we're bad people, but not because of that, right? Okay, Adam wrote in last week, about gluten. Gluten. I like that word. you like that word? Gluten. Dave, Nastasia, et cetera. Hey guys, you're et cetera today. They're not they're not happy and they're they're glum in the other room. Okay. I've been thinking how gluten is composed of 2 separate protein types. Glutin and Gladin, and I think it's Gladin, not Gladin, Gladin. I wonder, is it possible to make a wheat-free? I like saying wheat with a wheat. Yeah, wheat.
+
+[14:11] Anyway, is it possible to make a wheat-free loaf of bread that behave like regular wheat bread by combining flowers containing these separate gluten
+
+[14:18] components? Wheat flour is typically 11 to 13% protein, 80% of which is
+
+[14:24] gluten, and gluten is about a one to one ratio between gluten and gluten. I guess, you know, it depends, everything depends. Anyway, can I duplicate these conditions without wheat flour? I've not been able to find a detailed list of flowers and their glutening gliad infractions. There are gluten-free websites that list gluten containing grains since gluten is the primary issue in celiac disease, but these sites do not post hard numbers. I have not found references for a good source of glutenin. With this approach to constructing a loaf of bread work. For example, while rye flour contains gluten, pentasands, pentasands are 5 carbon sugars. you know, the polymers of 5 carbon sugars. Okay. Pendicans are present that prevent the gluten from forming effectively. My alternative flower combinations have similar negative interactions. The bakery network website. WWW, the bakerynetwork.com, describes how to isolate gluten from flower, and then separate the gluten and gluten by rinsing with alcohol. Perhaps an alternative approach would be to mix isolated glutine and into a
+
+[15:19] dome may have gleed and rich flour, where the protein relax and reincorporate into a dough. Thanks for your thoughts. Adam. Okay. First of all, I mean, clearly this approach would not help. Uh, clearly this approach would not help if someone actually had celiac disease because they can't have the gluten regardless of where it comes from.
+
+[15:36] right? Duh. But, uh, the question is, is there some source of just straight glutening, uh, not that I, not that I know of. And I wouldn't necessarily see the, I wouldn't necessarily see the point of getting something that's high
+
+[15:52] and gluten and then adding just gluten in when you could just buy vital wheat gluten at the store, you know, and add the vital wheat gluten to your bread mix and increase the protein
+
+[16:02] compound. And as for pentasands, you know, what pentasands are interesting. I think you can add enzymes that break them down somewhat, and I think there are some enzymes that break them down naturally to kind of reduce the
+
+[16:16] viscosity over time, but they seem to reduce the ability of gluten networks to form in
+
+[16:23] 2 different ways. One, they actually interfere with the interaction between
+
+[16:28] the polymers that are formed when you hydrate the gluten, right? And secondly, they increase the viscosity of the water matrix within
+
+[16:38] it and therefore make it difficult, more difficult for the gluten to hydrate. So they have a two-step thing. They're actually inhibiting the formation of the network, you know, on a molecular
+
+[16:47] level and increasing the viscosity, making less of the water available to the gluten dehydrates. That's what the pendicans are doing. Now, my presumption is, is that by doping up to a certain level with vital weak gluten, which I used to do all the time in low protein flowers, just dope it with vital weak gluten. Um, you can ameliorate some of these effects, but I don't know that you're going to be able to make entirely
+
+[17:06] wheat-free, i.e. from no wheat products, including no wheat gluten stuff that has gluten in it.
+
+[17:11] On a separate note that's interesting. Pentasans, I don't I haven't read any human studies, but people are very worried about feeding high pentasan grains to animals, because they can lower the feed conversion ratio, because what happens is, is the same thing that happens in
+
+[17:28] the, in the dough, the pentasans increase the viscosity, happens in your gut because they don't get broken down right away. And so this increased viscosity can lead to a lower absorption of certain nutrients in chickens, for instance, that are
+
+[17:40] fed grains high in pentasans. If you want, you can read the article. Increase small intestinal fermentation is partly responsible for the anti-nutritive activity of
+
+[17:49] non-stars, palysaccharides and chickens. You can go read that, if that's the kind of crap you like to read, which I guess I am. I guess that's me. On a side note, I was looking through, and I saw Time magazine a couple of months ago, came out with an article saying, you know, how, check this
+
+[18:04] out stuff. you're not going to believe this. 28% of people in the U.S. said to the
+
+[18:09] Time magazine people, or something close to 28%, said that they were trying to reduce the amount of gluten in their diet. Is that crazy? I mean, it's crazy. So what's happened is is that the gluten-free market has freaking exploded. Like, it's like, it's a multi-cajillion dollar industry because all of these people who are like, well,
+
+[18:28] there's some people who are allergic to it. So maybe if I just don't have it too, it's going to be better for me, even though I'm not allergic to it, even though it does no harm to me at all, even though it does nothing but make my bread delicious.
+
+[18:36] It's a new organic. Yeah, but it makes no, it makes no dang. It makes no dang sense. But you know what? Good. Here's 2 things. Good, good, good, good. Like, make a buck. You know what I mean? If you're going if you're gluten freak. So like Piper, who works with us, I'm going to calm them out here. Piper, who works with us, he's the Booker and Dax lab manager there. He's been on the show once or twice, right? Is that true? Piper is Celiac. He's legit. You know what I mean? Like the man can't have gluten. In fact, he, like, muscles through it, like when he took his test at the French culinary, ate all the gluten, got the huge rash and all this other
+
+[19:10] stuff, and, you know, the horrible problems, right? So he's legitimately gluten-free. And so, and there is a huge rise in actual cases, or so it's reported to me of people, you know, with actual intolerance to
+
+[19:22] gluten. And so if 28% of the people around there are sheep and believe
+
+[19:27] this craziness, that they should get rid of gluten too, even though it has no effect on them. I say, God bless them, because it means that there's more people pouring money into problems, they're going to help out actual people with problems like Piper, right?
+
+[19:36] Right? Yeah. Oh, speaking of gluten-free flowers. In Africa. Did I already talk about this? In Africa, they have a type of millet called phonio. Did I talk about this? Jack or Joe? Not that I can remember. Yeah. So there's an increased interest in kind of the lost crops of
+
+[19:52] Africa and there's a bunch of different people reasons people are interested. Me taste, right? Uh, people in Africa, economics, uh, three, I don't know, I guess those are the main ones, right? Well, it's economics, politics, uh, ecology, um, you know, soil
+
+[20:07] use that, you know, uh, and, you know, taste. And a lot of the, you know, crops that are originally from that area are different species of millet. Millet is not a single type of grain in the way
+
+[20:20] that, you know, wheat is. There's a bunch of different grass families with small seeds that are called millet. Uh, and, you know, they're, they're combined, their, their characteristic that they share is that they're all members of the grass family and that they all have extremely small seeds. So, uh, a lot of these are very high, you know, the ones that they use, the small millet, the large millet, and this tiny, tiny, tiny one that's known in Senegal as
+
+[20:41] phonia with an F, uh, are very high in proteins, but apparently
+
+[20:45] not uh, gluten and gliodin. So they can be consumed by gluten-free folk. Now, phonio, I had a loaf of bread in Senegal that was composed, based dead, could just be lying, right? Could just be lying. But they said it was 80% phonio and only 20% wheat. But the texture was like 100% wheat bread. So maybe there's some good ideas there for gluten-free people with phonio. If anyone has any experimentation that they can send in, that they've experimented, I would love to hear about it. I hear that long fermentation times make for better millet-based does, but I haven't done any research yet. I did bring some back, but haven't had time to play play with it. I've also heard that Thomas Keller's $15 a pound
+
+[21:26] exclamation point gluten-free flour is pretty good, but I would bet not for bread. I bet for pasta. That's what Mark Ladner uses at Del Posta, right? He uses Thomas Keller's fantastically expensive flower. Yes. And he likes it, right? I tasted it. Were you there when I was there? Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I tasted it. It was good. I mean, look, is it as good as the, no, side by side? He gives you the one with the gluten and you're like, take the gluten. But, like, it was pretty good, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it better because they cooked it better, better than a lot of normal people's real,
+
+[21:58] well, real gluten full pasta that was, right? Yeah. What am I, my Yoda? You hear how I put that sentence together? No damn sense. All right. Mark Jensen, should we take a break? Yeah, that's great. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break cooking issues.
+
+[22:24] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Crilley, we've created something exciting and new at chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love, and we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible.
+
+[22:51] At chefsteps.com. We publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the
+
+[23:03] kitchen. And through our forum, you can engage with our team, as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, chefsteps.com is entirely free to learn. I love that they say they're a fan of cooking issues in that ad. It's quite nice in them. Well, you know, we had the we had the Chris Young last week on the show, and we're put in the awkward position of having to cut Chris Young off to play a Chris Young promo.
+
+[23:45] First time it's ever happened. Yeah, yeah, that was good. You know, uh, you know who does their, see, here's what, here's something you got to like about the chef steps. I look, there are sponsors, so, you know, but still, true. Here's the nice thing that they even the people who do, you know who does their web work? Michael Natkin. Really? Yeah. He does their wedding, of course. was in touch with him. And so, like, you know, even the person like doing the web work is like a lauded and loved food figure. It's great. You know what I'm saying? It's a good community got coming here. Yeah. Speaking of community, can I do a quick pitch? Yeah, sure. Still membership drive. May is almost over. And if any listener becomes a member by the end of this show. I'm going to go ahead and title the episode their name. Oh, wow. So, you know, act now. This is but this is like a real act now, not like where you call in and you get 5 sham wows for the price of one or
+
+[24:36] something like that. No, it's not like that. Okay. Uh, but, uh, that's heritageradionetwork.org and click the donate button on the right side right there. Can you put a sham wow button there and we can sell sham wows off that thing? I wish. I wish I had... if anyone's listening and wants to send us some sham wows, we could use them over here. Here's something, it's not mine to give, to give or to say we should have a contest for, but there is an awesome pair of cowhair chaps in the studio that I've tried to steal like 3 times.
+
+[25:01] Maybe that should be like a like a thing once. I think we should make sham wows that have the the logo, the cooking issues logo on them. That'd be sweet. And then if you call in and become a member. You get some cooking issue shamwas? Yeah, exactly. No, it'd be awesome. Well, back to the chef's desk per second. You know who I haven't really spent a lot of time hanging around with from Chef Steps is Grant. He's like, you know, Grant and Chris. Grant, apparently huge badass. awesome guy. I mean, I met him a couple times when Modernist Food was doing their, like,
+
+[25:29] tour de cuisine around the country and in Seattle, but apparently just like a monster cook. That's what I hear. Anyway. Okay. By the way, still time to call any questions. 718-4972128 that's 718-4972128. Mark Jensen writes in regarding eggs. Mark Jensen here, Fork in the Road, mobile galley. You know, I'm gonna have to have a galley kitchen in my next apartment. It's kind of depressing. I don't like y'all. You like alley kitchens? Okay. I mean, because like right now in my apartment, I'm moving my part was just kind of, it's good because each of my kids are going to have a room, but my kitchen now is like kind of being, it's kind of beat down at this point because it's been 10 years and I've done anything to it, like literally, but it's like sweet because you can fit 8 people in my kitchen cooking and interacting and having fun without bumping butts.
+
+[26:14] You know what I mean? Because I'm not worried. not a commercial kitchen. The space isn't a huge premium there. So I'm a little worried about how tight it's going to be the next time around. What do you think? And Stasha's like, don't care. Don't care. Okay. Fork in the Road, mobile galley from Lexington, Kentucky. Here's a question. Lexington, I need to go back to Kentucky at some point soon. I had a good time. I like Kentucky. I like bourbon. I like ham. If you like bourbon, you like him. horses are okay. Do you like horses? Yeah. But do you like bourbon? You like ham? So, you know, Kentucky. Anyway, 3 yeses in a row. Yeah, right? Whoa. Like, what is she doing here? She hates everything here. Right? I don't think they have hipsters in, I didn't see any hipsters in Kentucky. No, they do in Louisville. sure. Okay, yes, that's probably true. Yeah. Here's the question about uses for leftover eggs. leftover 64 Celsius eggs. Now, for those of you out there, when you're doing low temperature cooking on eggs, 90% of the eggs that you're going to use are one of 3 temperatures. 62, 62 Celsius, in an immersion circulator, if you cook a chicken egg at 62 Celsius for 45 minutes to an hour, you're going to get like a classic eggs Benedict egg in terms of the yolk and the outside's going to be
+
+[27:22] custardy if you want to make it harder on the outside white. You can drag it through simmering water on the way to service. Okay? And you just cook it in the shell, you crack it out, and it cracks out beautifully. It's wonderful. It's amazing. life-changing technique, yada, yada. 63 degrees Celsius, right? Or anything really above 62, like 62, 562, you know, 62, something in there. 63, You get what's called a creamy yolk, where the yolk is creamy throughout, but is more like a sauce, almost like a thick on
+
+[27:47] glazer or custard. Really nice. I really like that for like soups where you don't want it to bleed out entirely, but you want
+
+[27:54] to be able to mix in eventually as a fine sauce or in an aspect, sometimes I like
+
+[27:59] it where you don't want it to run out entirely. 64 is really, really creamy, but only sags a little bit. Now, what I call it is just set. So those are the 3 temperatures that are going to comprise 90% of the eggs that you cook in an immersion circulator. All right? Okay. Um, okay. I often run my circulator, my food truck for soft egg dishes, inevitably with some
+
+[28:19] leftovers, you know, service. Never wanting to waste, especially a delicious fresh local egg. I chill them in a nice bath and use them the next day as an ingredient in other dishes. So far, discarding the albumin and jet that, you know, the white, and just using the yolk. I started with salad dressings. Caesars, of course, but as an emulsifier in almost anything. And I just went the next step and subbed them in a modernist cuisine's hollandaise recipe, which we talked a little bit about last time. Instead of cooking the raw egg yolk bags and zippies in a circulator, I simply blended the coal 64 degrees C yolks with the vinegar reduction to make a great base for the butter to emulsify into.
+
+[28:52] It's freaking fantastic. It works better than the original recipe. Take that, take that. It works better than the original recipe, and the thick texture coming out of the ISI because they were shooting their holidays out of the ISI gun is fantastic. That's a good use. My question, first, I can't think of any dangers outside of temperature control in doing this. Can you? No, as long as the, as long as you, um, you know, are using it with it. It's an RTE food, right? So you treat it like any other RTE food where you've,
+
+[29:20] you know, killed, um, you know, the pathogens in it and, you know, use it accordingly. So if you let it sit out for a long time cold, then you're shafted. You know what I mean? If you heat it up to temperatures that are going to be, like if you put it in an ISI in a warm bane, and you keep it in that Bane Marie at a temperature above the, you know, the kill point for, you know, whatever you're interested in, salmonella listeria, whatever,
+
+[29:42] then, you know, no, it's totally safe. So I can't think of any extra problems. Second, you must have leftover low temp eggs from time to time. What do you like to do with them? Thanks, and please send me a Searsol ASAP. Uh, okay, still thinking uh, Sears on is the name to go with. Get it on versus the showroom. Anyway, Mark Jensen's. Fork in the Road mobile galley. You know, I never... I mean, like usually what I've never done a whole bunch, like for service, had 64 eggs. We, you know, would mostly run 62s for Benedict and 62s. You can honestly reuse the next day, straight up. You know what I mean? because what we do is, is we cook the 60 here. And you might be able to do this with a 63 or 64 as well. So we cook the 60, uh, let's say 62. We cook the egg at 62 for an
+
+[30:34] hour and usually we overload the thing. And so, you know, once it gets back up to temp, we give it like an hour, an hour, and 15 minutes, right? And then we drop the temperature to 57. At 57 Celsius, there's no creep at all. It's totally safe, right? And there's no creep at all in the egg yolk texture over the course of a whole service. You could take those same eggs, put them in cold water, whatever, put them in the fridge, bring them back up the next day, you know, so
+
+[31:05] then you cook off your next day's eggs, and then you put, you know, after you cook them, when it's time to retherm, you throw the eggs from the previous day in when
+
+[31:15] you had it at 57. They come up to temp so that they're warm enough to serve in about 20 minutes, and then you 30, and then you can, uh, and then you can use them, you know, obviously use them first, but you can use them like yesterday's
+
+[31:29] eggs, uh, without, I've never noticed a loss in quality, unless you're rough with them and the whites can suffer a little bit. Now that's a 62. Once you get up to 63 and 64 and the whites start to get more set, you might have a little bit of weirder whites on the 2nd day, but you can try
+
+[31:45] it. But I think your use of the egg yolk is awesome. I can't think of any. I couldn't think of any uses for the whites, but someone will call in. I mean, you could always just crack them into a pot of boiling water. The thin whites will go away, hard cooked those suckers, and then use them in an egg
+
+[32:00] salad, and everybody knows that everybody who's anybody likes egg salad. Stas, do you like an egg salad? Even Stas likes an egg salad. Four, yeses. Egg salad, delicious. Jack, Joe, am I right on this? Yes. Egg salad. God, I love egg salad. Uh, it's really weird. Like, it, like, theoretically, you would think that, I mean, it's, it's, it's perceived as kind of like a low rent kind of a thing, but it's really delicious.
+
+[32:21] Like, why would that be a low end thing? You like celery in your egg salad? Yeah, me too. I know some people don't like celery in their egg salad. I think they're wrong. Okay. Mattia writes in about sous vide and safety. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and you ready? Others. You like that, Joe? Others. Okay. Thanks for a great show. Did you give a boo? Did you give a boo? I gave a little bit of a boo. You got to have like the boo button. You need a boo button. That's true. We should get like a ghost or something. Yeah, like, did did Blueberry ever say a boo on air for blueberry cereal? I'll go through YouTube and no, pull one out. Do you know Blueberry contains a FNDC Blue one? I think it's one, right? And we have a container of it. Maybe two. I can't remember. And if you eat enough of that, you don't defecate blue. You defecate green. Did you know that? No, but did you tell everybody about your cereal puffer yet? Can we get to that before the show ends? Uh, yeah, why don't you want to be? Okay. So that's, yeah, maybe I should talk about it. I talk about that at all? Not really. All right. So it turns out in the olden days, when I say olden, I mean olden, or currently they still use this machine in Mexico. And where was the other place? Possibly Poland. There's 3rd Peru, right? So when you wanted to make puff cereals, here's what you did. You took your grain, you tempered it out to, I think, around 12%, 12 to 14%
+
+[33:37] moisture somewhere in there, right, tempering very important, I think you can do it with things other than grain, but that's mainly what they did. And then you put it in a sealed chamber, all right? And the sealed chamber has a porthole on it with like a door that shuts down really tight. It's got a huge giant locking mechanism, like a giant vice grip on it. Then you spin it so that it keeps on spinning so that everything's even. It's like a tumbler, almost like a dryer, right? Then you put a propane flame on it, like a big blower, like for
+
+[34:04] a furnace. And you heat that sucker up until it gets up to like a 100 and it's 70 or 180
+
+[34:12] PSI, like 365 degrees Fahrenheit, something like that. And when it gets up to there, you stop it and you hit the lever with a lead pipe. Might be a steel pipe, but I'm hoping it's a lead pipe because that's food that's food safe, right? You hit it and boom, the thing flies, and boom, the pressure releases and each individual grain just puffs instantly into puffed wheat, puffed corn, puffed rice, puffed anything,
+
+[34:38] right? And this is how puff cereal was originally made, and it was called a puffing gun. And that is why, like, if anyone of you remember the, you know, I don't, I was not born yet, but I used to listen to a comedian named Stan Freberg from the 50s when I was growing up because my parents
+
+[34:51] listen to him. And so, you know, I'm familiar with all the old marketing terms because he was an ad guy. He's still alive. And the old motto used to be shot from guns because that's what they used to say about puff cereals
+
+[35:04] that it was shot from guns because legitimately it was shot from puffing guns. They knew have newer technology called continuous puffers that no longer work on this batch technology, and they're only used in countries that
+
+[35:12] can't have the infrastructure to support moving the larger pieces of continuous puffing equipment
+
+[35:18] around. But they're still used. And they're made by the Puritan Manufacturing Corporation of Omaha, Nebraska in the same way that they were made decades and decades and decades ago. And the museum of food and drink just received a couple of weeks ago, our very own puffing gun, and I could not be more excited because I'm going to puff everything. Like anything you, I'm going to puff the hell out. I'm going to take dry trip. I going to see if I can puff shrimp. I't know if I can because it's protein, not a carbo, whatever. I going to puff it. going to puff it. You name it, I'm going to puff it. Like, I'm going to take all these books on this bookshelf. I try to puff these bookshelves. Um, So this summer, if you're in New York City, uh, late summer because we have to build a truck and we have to make it food grade and we have to get our permitting and all that, but look for the museum of food and drink, to be hauling a puffing gun around, uh, as the 1st step towards our serial exhibit that we're going to have
+
+[36:05] is the 1st exhibit, the museum of food, uh, puts out. What do you think, Jack? And you know where it's being stored, people? Puffing gun is being stored at the Heritage Meet at the Heritage Meet headquarters. Heritage Foods USA. Heritage Foods USA, but yeah. Because not only is Heritage Radio and Heritage, uh, Heritage meets
+
+[36:21] a uh, a longtime supporter of the museum, but Patrick
+
+[36:25] Martin's, our founder, is on the board. On the board. That's it. Okay. I've got great news William McGee just became a member. So that will be the title of today's episode. Yeah? Yeah. William McGee. William McGee. Thanks, man. in the game. Nice. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, William. I appreciate it. Okay. Mattia writes in about sous vide and safety. Hi, Dave, Nastasi, Jack, and others. Thanks for a great show. I was recommended your show by a friend and started to try and catch up on your archive. Many hours of listening to do. don't bother. I'm kidding, it does like, yeah, really. To let you know how I am, I'm a computer electronic engineer, impassioned by cooking, and I'm living in Sweden. A while back, I started learning about sous vide cooking as I'm totally amazed by it, especially cooking tough meats for long numbers of
+
+[37:07] hours, 10, 24, 72 hours. I would like to try to learn to cook most foods sous vide, especially all kinds of meat that benefit in both longtime cooking and tender cuts, obviously shorter times.
+
+[37:16] I'm currently using the poly-science creative circulator, which I think is great, though I'm curious about the safety aspects. Where in the temperature zone is the actual danger zone or safe zones, if you invert it? Is the so-called danger zone between 3.3 Celsius and 54
+
+[37:30] degrees 4 Celsius or between 3.3 degrees Celsius and 60 degrees Celsius? 60, that's 140 for you guys out there. 60 is 140. Always remember 60 Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit. It's one of those magical numbers you need to remember. Okay. At what temperature can I pasteurize safely and keep it there for long cooking? Does that temperature start at 55 degrees Celsius or do I need to move it up to 60 degrees Celsius? This is my main question. And which interval shall I avoid, especially cooking long hours? This is my 2nd main question. Though I'm aware that there are many other benefits to work in the 60 degrees plus domain for tough meats, as enzymes get more active, et cetera, although, you know, they get the
+
+[38:05] act. Well, I'm not going to give you that. It would take too long. But I'm curious for a pure bacteria parasite's killing perspective in this question. The reason for the question, he said, I find different resources that seem to be contradictory. and I'll reference them below. I'm interested in knowing that I get a decent reduction of all normal pathogens and parasites, including
+
+[38:21] trichinello and cooking pork. What's the story behind the different statements? 54.4 versus 60? And then he references Douglas Baldwin sites, who he usually has pretty good numbers. Thomas Keller's book, Under Pressure, Thomas Keller's book,
+
+[38:35] Under Pressure, specifically puts the danger zone at 4.4 to 60. So in other words, refrigeration temp upper up to 140. And that's my main gripe with that book, actually. That's just, it's wrong. I think, and, you know, I've heard discussions of it with people who are involved. And the issue is they didn't want to get into complicated, uh, they didn't want to get into complicated discussions about temperature versus time.
+
+[38:57] Uh, yeah, that that was like the, that was like the unfortunate part about that book is, is them saying that you shouldn't keep
+
+[39:03] meats um, below 140, 60 degrees Celsius for long periods of time when everybody knows that cooking at 55 degrees Celsius for 72 hours is entirely safe and above 544 for any length of time in meat, in beef, any length of time, uh, not ground beef, but any length of time for a whole muscle cut, over
+
+[39:23] 544, uh, over 117 minutes. So 117 minutes and above, a minimum of 117 minutes guarantees safety, according to the old food codes. So that thing, the under pressure numbers is like entirely strange
+
+[39:37] thing and kind of, I think, like the weak spot of that book. The recipes, I think, seem to be pretty good, right? I mean, although I don't know, I haven't cooked a lot of them. Uh, The en sous vide, uh, looking at cuisine technology website, it states that the danger zone is between 4.4 and 60, but then they say that the rule of film is a vegetative pathogen and parasite
+
+[39:56] development can grow only below 544, which seems fair, uh, compared to the Baldwin sites. And then it references an interesting, there's a bunch of
+
+[40:06] sites to say a bunch of different things. I'm not gonna go through each one of them because they're all different. And most of this stuff, people are basically wrong. There's, you know, there's one site that's, he mentions it's interesting called the Food Authority. What is it? It's something I have to look at it and call you out later, but it's basically saying that there needs to be more study,
+
+[40:28] right? Which is absolutely true. Here's the real deal, okay? 140 degrees, 60 degrees Celsius, is the temperature at which most of the pathogens that we're interested in are killed in very, very quick order, right?
+
+[40:42] So that number is on the safety and the food safety thing. Anything below that is shown as this danger zone because they don't trust you to do accurate measurements at anything below that temperature.
+
+[40:56] And if it hits that temperature, you're pretty much guaranteed to have wiped out anything, that's a problem, right? And that's why they choose those numbers. And because they assume that there's a lot higher contamination on ground meat, even though the pathogens of interest
+
+[41:08] are the same on ground meat as on fresh meat, they put the ground meat numbers even higher because they want to make sure that you rapidly kill everything on there. Right? Does that mean that in order to kill bacteria, you need to make it up to that temperature? Absolutely not. Okay? So most pathogens grow very well up to about 40 degrees
+
+[41:33] Celsius, and somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees Celsius, go into a
+
+[41:37] static no growth phase, all right? So anything above 50 degrees Celsius. So anything below 50 I don't trust as a safety measure for cooking for cooking things for killing bacteria. And in fact, I don't use anything below 54.4, even though there are probably numbers that are below 54.4 degrees
+
+[41:58] Celsius, that will kill most of the bacteria of interest, it cooked long enough. I don't have any data that supports the thermal death times for
+
+[42:06] bacteria at those temperatures. And so I don't recommend any procedures below that temperature for pasteurization purposes. Okay? Because remember, the lower you go on a temperature, just be, so there's 2 things you want to do when you're, when you're heating something. You want to make it taste good, 3 things. You want to make it taste good. That's the most important thing from my standpoint. Two, you want to prevent bacteria from growing,
+
+[42:29] right? And you want to kill the bacteria that are present. Cooking over 50, you know, and definitely over 52 Celsius, which is Bruno
+
+[42:37] Gouseau's number, is going to prevent the pathogens. There are bacteria that grow well above that temperature. There's bacteria that grow on thermal vents in 202 degree, you know, water. But the pathogens of interest aren't going to be growing above, it will take Gousseau's, you know, nice, but, you know, number 52. They're not going to be growing above that number, right? But the question is how fast are you killing them, right? And so for the bacteria that are present that you're trying to kill, right? The lower the temperature above the begin kill zone, the longer it takes. And I don't have curves that tell you how long to cook a piece of
+
+[43:12] meat, to pasteurize it when you're at 54 below 54.4.4. And so I don't give any numbers for below 54.4. So the, the, the problem is, is that, uh, you know, they write the codes and this term safety zone, danger
+
+[43:29] zone is supposed to be like kind of a boneheaded rule that we can all just follow and will guarantee safety.
+
+[43:35] And it is. If you follow that old, you know, uh, you know, fridged up to uh, 60 degrees Celsius, 140 rule. Yeah, you're going to make safe products because that's inherently safe. However, it's not nuanced enough. There are many products that are safe. They're cooked below that temperature. It's just a question of now you need to actually worry about being precise and you need to worry about how long you cook something, right? So it puts an extra variable in that the food code under its normal guises doesn't want to handle. They'd much rather just have a cook with the 60, so it's safe kind of a thing. You know what I mean? Because remember, the regulatory boards out there. They're not they're not tasked with giving you as a cook. Everything that you want to make the products as delicious as you want them to do. Their only task is to ensure that food that is served to the public is safe. That's it. They don't care whether it's delicious. That's not their job. You know what I mean? I mean, stuff? Yeah. Okay. Was that helpful or no? Okay. Uh, and you go, Aguirre writes in on carbonation. Dear Dave, I've been trying to apply carbonation to beverages for quite some time with poor results. I've tried the ISI soda siphon and got very poor carbonation, even after using very cold water. That makes sense. I'll tell you how to do it in a minute. Various types of liquid shaking after each CO2 charge and leaving it in the fridge long enough to help further dissolution of CO2
+
+[44:53] or dissolving a CO2. In the meantime, I got a hold of a 300 gram CO2 bottle and a beer regulator that I'm trying to connect with a soft drink bottle through a tire valve.
+
+[45:03] See the photo. I'm still having poor results because there's a slight leak of CO2 through the valve. Uh, there are no screws through the valve and I believe uh, I've been searching around a lot and cannot manage the PSI that I'm aiming for. But I'm working to find a kind of glue that would stick to the plastic and rubber and would tolerate high pressure. Hopefully we'll have it solved by tomorrow, though if you're aware of any simpler way of attaching a bottle to a regulator would really appreciate your advice, I'm going crazy. On the product then, I'm trying to work on a gin tonic made by cold infused quinine bark, citric acid, and sugar, and gin. The flavor is more dirty than a GNT, but nevertheless interesting and inspired by your gin and juice that I had a few weeks ago on a trip to New York City.
+
+[45:37] Would like to serve it in champagne glass. My questions. How do you manage to get such greatly thin and elegant bubbles? I work on it. What PSI temperature combination do you apply and how many recharges do you apply in order to get the right carbonation? And do you know the amount of CO2 that you can get to dissolve per liter? I've read the champagne holes about 12 grams per liter. Is this about right for the cocktail? What are the differences between carbonating soft drinks and other cocktails that include an alcohol? And I understand it with alcohol, you need more PSI, but how much? Any other tricks? Thanks so much in advance and excuse me for sending such a long email and ego aguire. Okay, 1st of all, so I looked at the picture. He is using a tire valve, which is a Schrader valve, that is being kind of bolted into the top of a regular PET bottle. This technique goes back to about 2002 from the
+
+[46:20] grand master of carbonating at home. Richard J. Kinch. And I noticed that his technique was ripped off in a bunch of instructables without, of course, without crediting him because people are D-bags. So, uh, you know, I had already had at that point a professional uh, a professional carbonating rig at home because that's the only way I knew how to get carbonation at that point when he wrote
+
+[46:40] it. But when I read his article on home carbonation. It was before I had the carbonator caps, which is how I do it now. Essentially, his technique is a homemade version of the carbonator capsule by liquid bread. I highly recommend that you purchase a liquid bread carbonator cap and the bottle and
+
+[46:59] bag syrup, not the bottle and bag. The pre-mix ball lock valves that go with it. They're very cheap. You can get the cap for 15 bucks at any homebrew supply
+
+[47:12] online and you can get the rest of the stuff, which goes right on your hose with no leaks and a hose clamp for about 3 bucks.
+
+[47:19] And with that, you can turn any soda bottle into a really great carbonation thing. Aside from the leak, which may or may not be the problem. When you're carbonating straight water, you're going to want to be about 35 PSI, when you're carbonating a cocktail, like a gin and tonic, you're going to want to shoot for about 14%
+
+[47:34] alcohol, and about 45 PSI. When you're carbonating water, you're going to want it to be maybe 40, 35 to 40. You going to want it to be at 0 degrees Celsius. There should be chunks of ice in it. It should be cold. Remember, it's going to heat as you carbonate it and it's going to get warm because you're not chilling it while you're doing it. too. When you're carbonating a cocktail, you're going to want it to be about 22 degrees Fahrenheit when you're working. That's the number where you want 22, 23 at about 14%. That's the number. And you're going to want to go 45. The reason you need more carbonation is because alcohol absorbs more CO2. So to have the effect of CO2 on you, you're going to need to have higher pressure. The other thing you're going to need to do is get rid of the airspace when you're carbonating. It a classic thing. That's the reason you got bad carbonation in your in your ISI was the ISI is very difficult, especially if you use a soda siphon. You can actually get better carbonation results out of using a regular whipped cream maker than you can out of the soda
+
+[48:25] one because at least you can purge the headspace. If you're using an ISI and you want to get a good result. You throw in, get it very cold, you can even keep ice in the ISI, you put one charger in, you shake it a little bit, you foam it all off instantly to get rid of all of the bubbles and nucleation sites that are in the thing and to purge the headspace of
+
+[48:40] oxygen, and nitrogen, whatever else. And then you throw in your 2nd charger, shake it, let it sit, then it will be carbonated if you release it slowly.
+
+[48:48] When you're doing it in a bottle. You need to squeeze out all of the headspace, which is why soda balls are so great. Get rid of all that air in the headspace. Only fill it about 3 quarters full. Close it. Carbonate it once, let it foam off, getting rid of nucleation sites. Carbonated again. Foam it off again. Get rid of more nucleation sites. Carbonated a 3rd time. By the 3rd time, you should let it sit in the in the freezer for a little while to mellow out. Then you can uncap it very carefully and pour it and you should be good. The other problem you're having with that valve is unless you shut off the gas, you're opening up the gas when it's under pressure, it's going to make a mess everywhere. But anyway, so go get the carbonator cap. Make sure that everyone gives high praises to Richard J. Kinch, the granddaddy of the carbonation cap, right? Lastly, they're going to kick me off here in a minute. But lastly, Pauline writes out from Alaska. I'm a huge fan of your show while potting up some starts for the garden. I heard you discuss ways to screw up immersion blender mayo and suggest my solution. A wide mouth pint mason jar. works for me. I also have a question, a topic, rather. I was hoping that you might pontificate a bit on smoking salmon and other fish. I live in the interior of Alaska where they have awesome fish and make annual pilgrimage to dipnet the yearly quota for various salmon species. This is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. I fillet some. Cut some into stakes for near immediate consumption, leave a few hole for extravagant harvest parties, and smoke slash dry the rest. Not like that pallid pasty stuff shaved that they sell in the store. Our smoked salmon should be almost jerky like and full of smoky, slightly salty sweet flavor. I love smoked salmon. I love smoked salmon. I want to do better, learn more, et cetera. Thus, I'd like to hear what you might suggest, including ways you'd like to use this fish candy. Okay, 1st of all, just so you know, like that, like, I'm sure most of our listeners know that, like, you know, there's salmon, there's Atlantic salmon, right? And then there's Pacific salmon, and they're not the same species. And in the Pacific salmon, there's a bunch of different species that they get up there in Alaska, they get the Chinook slash the king, which is the highest in fact
+
+[50:42] content, the sockeye, which is, you know, also known as the red, which doesn't have quite as much fat, but it has a real kind of punchy salmon
+
+[50:48] flavor, so a lot of people like it. The coho, which is also kind of high in fat, and then the chum, which is
+
+[50:53] lower and the pink, which is lower. They are not bad. It's lower in fat, and everyone watches the super high fat salmons, both because of the omega bull crap, but also because they like the luscious flavor of fat.
+
+[51:01] And if you're smoking, actually, high fat is nice because the fat's going to pick up more on the smoke. Okay. So, um, So here's what I'm assuming. First of all, the stuff that you're saying is pale pasty shay stuff in the supermarket. Look, I agree. Smoked most smoked salmon that you get in the supermarket when it's vacuum packed is wretched, but the same style of salmon, i.e. not the salmon you're talking about, the same style of salmon is incredibly delicious when you get someone to cut it hand cut it off of the whole
+
+[51:29] fillet and you eat it after it's never been vacuum packed and allowed to get all mushy and nasty, I can attest.
+
+[51:34] They are not even the same product. You know, I don't know who sells it in Alaska, but when you go to New York, Go to buy Russian daughters and have them hand slice you some of their, some of their,
+
+[51:44] uh, their salmon. It's incredibly delicious. But, so the procedure that you're using in Alaska. I'm assuming is you do an initial brine. The initial brine is going to kill some of the, or it's going to prevent some of the bacteria from growing. It's going to be a kind of a curing step. Then you're going to air dry it. then you're going to equalize it, or you're going to, equalize it rather than you're going to air dry it, and then you're going to smoke it. I'm assuming you're talking cold smoking. Actually, you know what, hear the thing? I did a bunch, a bunch of research on the kind of safety. And I guess we should talk about it next time because I'm told I'm going to have to leave now. Should I talk about it more in depth next time? Or should I go? Do I have time? Next time. Next time? All right. Well, on the well, Pauline, I'm going to talk more about it next time. It's a really interesting subject, especially safety. There's a couple references I want to give you. They're cutting me off here, but guess what? The New York Times came up with a thing saying, uh, if you don't have high blood pressure, uh, you shouldn't worry about your sodium intake, not that I believe that study more than any
+
+[52:37] other, because I'm very skeptical, but I told you. Told you, told you, cooking issues.
+
+[52:49] I want to give another shout out to William McGee. Thanks for becoming a member, man. Couldn't issue. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You're listening to heritageradionetwork.org, a nonprofit member supported radio station, where 1000000s
+
+[0:23] strong, with folks tuning in from over 200 countries. We are education, we are entertainment. We are the future of food. May is our membership drive. Become a member and support us while receiving the newsletters, advanced invites, special discounts, and a membership card. We need your support. Visit our website and click the donate button to become a member today. Thank you for believing in us and enjoy the show.
+
+[0:55] Cooking your shoes.
+
+[1:21] Showing your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to cooking issues, Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How you guys doing? Calling your questions two. 718-497-2128. at 718-497-2128 joined in studio, as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. How you doing? Yeah? You all right? Yeah. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Plus, a host of new people that are coming on board, we have Eddie, right? Correct. Yeah, you're going to be another associate producer over here at the Hersbury Network. Yes, the associopath producer, yes. Yeah, we're coming up with a new thing, the sociopath producer, stay tuned for that. And Dedrick in the engineering booth, correct? What's up? Yeah, that's right. How you doing? Thanks, guys. So we got a full studio today, which I like. Uh, and uh, so uh, what happened this week? I just got back from my 20th year reunion at Yale College over
+
+[2:23] there. And you know what, Stas? The people, I was expecting like a bunch of really terrible looking people, like I expected like just like a real like poop fest of
+
+[2:32] like awful looking folk, like, you know, totally decrepit, bloated out, nasty, like droopy, like just all bad. You know what? They looked great. Really? Yeah, they look great. Did they like your talk? Oh, yeah, I gave a talk. It's called a turbo talk, which is like a variant of this kind of like 20 slides, 20 seconds, which I can't
+
+[2:52] pronounce like Petra Kuch, Pet, you know, something like that. Yeah, it went well, I think. I mean, I did my normal strategy, which was fit a 30 minute talk into 6 minutes. So I just spoke as fast as I could. And I didn't have any water. I went completely dry. My wife was in the audience. Jen, she said that I was turning red in the face. And, you know, you could see that like little bit of dry mouth spittle forming on the edges of my lips as I was like, you know, belting out, you know, at 8000000000 words a
+
+[3:18] minute, what was going on. But I think it went all right. think it was fine. But anyway, the interesting fact to me is the fact that everyone looked really good. And it just kind of drove home to me. One of the issues I think we're going to be looking into the museum. I need to do my own research on is that, um, the, the problem with nutrition in this country is, is kind of exacerbated, I think, by the fact that the people who are making the rules in general are people that aren't living the problems.
+
+[3:50] So you have like a group of extremely educated, uh, rather probably well-to-do, fairly liberal, uh, IV uh, league types. And these are like the policymakers for this sort of thing. And they all look great because they have the time, energy, and knowledge to spend on this problem. And then you have the rest of the people that are getting legislated
+
+[4:11] at and preached at by this group of people who are the ones having the real problem. So, you know, I really think, you know, we're going to be spending a lot of time kind of delving into the stats and kind of breaking this problem down more thoroughly. But it was really, I mean, I know it's anecdotal, one college reunion, but really kind of stark, uh,
+
+[4:31] slapping the face. In a good way, in in some sense, because I was, you know, surprised how good everyone looked, but there's a darker side to the looking good.
+
+[4:39] Okay. I had a comment in. From Mike Mallory. Can you forward this to Dave Nastasia. Longtime listener, love the show. You answered a question about gluten intolerance that was a bit misinformed on the William McGee episode. I love it's called the William McGee episode. Not Harold. William listener. Harold doesn't listen. Although Harold might be here next week. True or false? In Brooklyn? Or on the phone. Well, he's going to be in New York City in the real life this next week because of this like science festival thing that's going to World Science
+
+[5:11] Festival that Mustache and I are doing some sort of cocktail for. You didn't know you were going, but you are. Yeah. So anyways, so yeah, he's going to be in town. And if he is going to be in town on the Tuesday, I said that I would handcuff him and bring him into the studio. Wow. Yeah. I think he actually leaves Tuesday, so a lot depends on when he's leaving, but I don't even know that he's eating Roberta's
+
+[5:34] before, so maybe we can woo him with, like, even maybe above the pizza level. If Harold McGee comes in, can he get above the pizza and salad level of
+
+[5:42] cooking issues remuneration for service rendered? Certainly. I think I'll even pay 1st card to JFK. Nice job, Joe. Whoa. Wow. Joseph Baller now. Yeah, you like that? It's crazy. All right. Okay. Sorry. You answered a question about gluten intolerance. was a bit misinformed on the William McGee episode. Gluten intolerance is not the same as Celiac. It's well known in the research that a good chunk of the population mounts an immune reaction to
+
+[6:09] gluten, gluten, but is not specifically a celiac or have like a, you know, a
+
+[6:15] health, what would you call it? This is, I'm paraphr, a health endangering allergy or something. What do you call it anyway? Gluten intolerance is a gray area, but still measurable via lab test below full-blown celiac, which is more severe and immediate and an immediate immunoglobulin response. I say gray area because there's a huge spectrum of mucosal membrane-based, immune response, IGA, uh, things that mount slow inflammatory reactions to gluten. It's often called subclinical gluten intolerance because the body has a measurable reaction, but not a true allergic reaction. It's a different type of immune response, but you should know the difference between an intolerance and an allergy. Not all folks avoid gluten because it's bad for celiacs. That's not to say most people who avoid gluten at restaurants aren't full of sugar, honey iced tea. It would be nice if chefs knew that there isn't just black and white celiac or not. And there's a whole class of immune mediator reactions, a.k.a. gluten
+
+[7:06] intolerance. Mike Mallory. Mike, point well taken, uh, point well taken, too simplified in the last thing, but, uh, I guess simplified for effect, which is there's a whole, uh, group of people there who are full of
+
+[7:20] sugar honey iced tea. But I think my point last week was also that I'm kind of
+
+[7:26] glad. Like, I don't care. I'm glad, look, people like me who have no problem with the gluten,
+
+[7:31] like we're going to pound as much gluten as we can. In fact, I was talking to someone at the reunion, choose gluten, you know, gluten intolerant. She actually celiac. And so we were discussing this issue with them. And she was like, yeah, man, if I could eat gluten, I would be swimming through loaves of baguettes. You know, I'd be like chomping, swimming through loaves of baguettes and, you know, inhaling pizzas as fast as I could eat them because stuff's
+
+[7:53] delicious. But, uh, but can't. Anyway, but you know, again, thank goodness for the people who don't consume
+
+[8:00] it for no parent reason because they create a huge industry that allows people like are good
+
+[8:06] piper to be able to eat better products. Yeah. But anyway, point well taken. Now, back to the mystical myth. Oh, stars. So you went to the Rhode Island, correct? And you went to go see, now you can't, you can't, can't. Don't, you don't eat horseshoe crabs, but horseshoe crabs, you think that they're kind of interesting when they're on the ground on the beach. They're actually horrifying. You know, I know that they're interesting and fascinating and they're a throwback, a living fossil. So I don't want to get any comments about how I'm maligning them. horrifying, horrifying, like little creatures. So what'd you go see? We went to a hotel where they were having a meeting, a meeting event for these guys. And we were supposed to be in a boat, but they made us put on waiters. I told you that was going to happen. I know. But it wasn't covered. It was just a couple, a couple, like every couple feet. It was a crappy weekend, so it was kind of ruined. wasn't out. It was pouring. They were, yeah. Yeah, so Stas did not, you have to do it again. I know. Yeah, so here's what happened. So in the span of my young life between 8 years old and 10 years old. I witnessed some of the most horrifying biblical proportion natural events in kind of the history of New Jersey and kind of the little
+
+[9:25] eastern seaboard thing there, right? So, like, we didn't have that many hurt. In 77, we got hit by my name, David, was pretty bad, not bad by, you know, Sandy standards, but, you know, I was like, okay, I was little, so it seemed like a big deal. Then, uh, when I was 8 years old, we went to, I went to Cape Cod to a
+
+[9:41] thing, to a camp and witnessed one of these things by mistake. And it was, I had to wade ashore
+
+[9:48] and, and the entire ground in the bay was, was just coated with these monstrous, monstrous, monstrous, monstrous, monstrous horseshoe
+
+[9:58] crabs, and you couldn't avoid them. And as an eight-year-old, you know, not being versed in horseshoe crowds. You like, I'm a Joe, Joe, a god, right? And furthermore, I learned a couple of years later that the horseshoe crab blood, which is copper-based and not iron-based in terms of its oxygen
+
+[10:15] carry ability. Yeah, yeah, blue or green or whatever it is, was incredibly valuable at the time in research. And so I thought I was going to make a business of going back. I thought I was going to become a millionaire, like destroying all these dreaded horseshoe crabs and milking their blood out of them for
+
+[10:30] profit. It didn't happen. I don't know, it didn't happen. And then, like right after that, the cicadas, or right before that, my brothers, remember, the cicadas came out in Bergen County, New Jersey, and coated the ground and made a deafening, awful, terrific like din of horrible cicada, like
+
+[10:46] it's just crunching of stepping on cicada, the worst thing ever for a guy that hates bugs.
+
+[10:51] And supposedly happening now, but now is not, it's not biblical. Has anyone called in and being like, 0 my god, the cicadas. No, right? Have you heard it? Have you seen people running and screaming covered by cicadas? School buses full of horrified children? And it's not like it was 2 cycles ago, 34 years ago when I witnessed it. And then the 1981 gypsy moth plague that hit the east coast and deforested a whole bunch of stuff. So, you know, what I'm looking for is a bunch of like kind of biblically bad natural signs to come on. I don't really want that to happen. anyway. So you didn't get you didn't get that, huh, Stas? No, it was unfortunate. Yeah, well, you know, maybe maybe this stuff is best experienced when you're a kid. Yeah. You think? Yeah. Yeah. Now all we got is you can't walk in the woods because of lime disease. It's not as visual, you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, in old line, by the way. last week after the after the thing, the heart of Lyme disease, and apparently Lyme disease is still going strong there. Like hardcore. I was hoping kind of to get it so I could get it in the official place. I'd be like, I got my line disease in Bradford. No, man, I got my Lyme disease in line. Bang. I'm just kidding. You don't want to get Lyme disease. horrible. can cause permanent central nervous system problems if not treated properly. Yada, yada. Do not take this as a making fun of the disease. It's horrible. Okay, Lucas Wright fan, all about ice cream. Hey, cooking issues, radio team, big fan of the show, especially Dave's tirades against ever-changing and contradictory health fads. Here's the question. I'm a big fan of Fiori de Latte ice cream. milk, cream, sugar, and nothing more. You like that style, Stas? Yeah. Yeah? Where do you have it mostly? Not here. Well, when you go to Italy because you're an America hater, like, where do you normally get it? The small towns. Small towns, small towns. Which I had when I was a kid and could never forget. Every time I see it at a restaurant or ice cream shop, I order it. The thing is, the texture is always somewhat disappointing, correct you are. Correct, you are. Wait, actually, this is not from, is this one from Lucas? This is not from Lucas. This is from Jose. Man, Lucas, your question's coming later on. Jose, I apologize. This is your question. Uh, where am I? Okay, every time I see it at a restaurant ice cream shop, I order it. The thing is, the texture is always somewhat disappointing. Either they pump it up with excessive quantity of hydrocolloids, making it pasty or gummy, or it is slightly granular, probably globules of fat clumping up and making butter or ice crystals, frankly.
+
+[13:10] You know, the issue here is, um, Yeah, is the texture is a big problem with this style life. We' get into it. I've tried to make it at home multiple times. I have a DeLongi with a built in freezer, but I keep getting the slightly granular result, which is not
+
+[13:26] surprising, since after refrigeration, the cream fat rises to the top. By the way, that's a, right there, it's a classic sign. It's underfrozen. The problem with, the problem with the home ice cream freezers that have the built-in refrigeration units is that they just simply aren't very
+
+[13:42] powerful. Like, if you look at Carpagani clololite, used to make a version that has a similar capacity to your DeLongi, but the machine is a good 3 times bigger. And the reason is because they have a, like, a serious compressor built into it. And the small compressors, like if it doesn't ice over, like instantly, as soon as you turn it on, it means that it just doesn't have the, are you allowed to say
+
+[14:03] cojones? Is that? Yeah. cojones. It doesn't have the cojones to freeze it down fast enough. And so if you look at the ratings on the DeLongue. People are talking 25, 35 minute batch times for a load of ice cream. And in ice cream, you really want to batch time. I mean, look, commercial people, they're doing batch times with seven, 8 minutes on ice cream, longer on
+
+[14:23] surveys, but like seven, 8 minutes on ice creams. And the reason is, is a faster freezing means smaller crystal sizes. So you're a little bit hampered because you're dealing with larger crystal sizes to begin with. because you're long freeze times. Then secondly, if you turn it off too soon before it freezes, you know, a little more completely than what you have it now, you have a big liquid phase and that liquid phase is going to cause some of these problems and also exacerbate your crystals because the rest of
+
+[14:48] the stuff, as you put it in your freezer to harden, right, will quiescently freeze into much larger granules.
+
+[14:55] So under, like, so under frozen stuff tastes fine, kind of straight out in the machine because you just pound it and it's kind of like soft
+
+[15:01] serve and you're not noticing the crystals as much, but on hardening those under frozen ice creams are going
+
+[15:07] to, it's going to accentuate that crystal problem. Now, you have a 3rd problem in that you're dealing with, you're dealing with an ice cream that doesn't have any inherent added emulsifiers from egg yolks,
+
+[15:19] right? Now, what you call uh, what you call a fiore de latte ice cream, which, by the way, is not made out of a
+
+[15:26] fiord de latte, uh, cow's milk mozzarella, also a delicious product, right? Different product It just means flour of the milk, right, Italian speaker? Check this out. Stars. Oh, God, you was told this story. Grew up. Knowing Spanish. Why? Because she's half Mexican and grew up in LA. Right? So it makes sense that she would speak Spanish. If I was half Mexican and grew up in LA, I would speak Spanish, my
+
+[15:50] kids speak Spanish because they grew up in New York. Me, I'm an idiot. I don't speak Spanish. Here's what she says. I learned Italian in college and forgot the Spanish. What the hell's that all about? I learned it from a boyfriend, even worse. to make it less embarrassing for you. My God. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, okay. So, uh, before I get this, so what you're calling uh, Fiord latte ice cream is what we in the states call, Philadelphia style, Philly
+
+[16:17] style with no egg yolks, no nothing, it's just milk, uh, typically milk, cream, sugar, uh,
+
+[16:23] vanilla with no stabilizers. Now, the classic examples of this stuff in the US used to be briars. So Briars is a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania style ice cream, and they used to tout the fact that they were made with only those ingredients. And they had a very, very fast freeze time. And so the results were good straight out of the box if you lived close to Philadelphia.
+
+[16:44] If you tried to buy briars and you live far away from Philadelphia or wherever their packing plants were, or if you made the mistake of buying that half gallon of briars ice cream and then not consuming the entire half gallon the instant it was open, it turned to crap.
+
+[16:57] And that's, and the reason is, is because there's no stabilizers or emulsifiers in it to prevent crystal growth in your
+
+[17:02] freezer where it freezes and thought freezer. So they got around the 1st problem, initial graininess by, um, just having a very, very fast freeze time in commercial, uh, continuous freezers, but they couldn't get around the secondary problem of it turning
+
+[17:15] to crap in your crappy home. I'm not saying your home freezer's crappy, but your crappy home freezer. Because it, because it is. Yeah. They couldn't get around that problem without Amos fires. So what did they do? Very, very quietly. I think like sometime in the last decade, they started doping briars with stabilizers, like
+
+[17:34] kerogen and things like that. Carragin is a good one because you can use extremely small quantities of it. Okay, now, to get back to your point. Uh, usually on Philadelphia style uh, ice creams or in, if you're a latte, they're fairly high fat, and that high fat is to get around the fact that you are,
+
+[17:52] now I don't know a lot about Fiord latte, but I do know a lot about Philly, because I used to make Philly style ice cream all the time. Uh, you know, my my family doesn't come from there now, but I have a lot of them that come from outside the Philly area, your and Pennsylvania. That's why I love pretzels so much. anyway. Uh, one of the tricks is it has a higher fat content than you would get out of a standard custard ice
+
+[18:11] cream. So you typically, you know, instead of like from my ice cream, I typically use one to one milk to cream, uh, but for custard-based ice
+
+[18:20] cream, and, you know, the gelato heads are going to use probably even less uh, cream than that, they're going to use more
+
+[18:26] milk, but more egg yolks and more sugar for a gelato style.
+
+[18:29] And don't let anyone tell you that in gelato, they don't dope that stuff with, don't dope that stuff with stabilizers. And by the way, I'm going to go out another limb and get my head chopped off by people. I like American ice cream every bit as much as I like Italian gelato. In fact, because I grew up with it. I have a soft spot for a properly done American ice cream that can't be taken by anyone else's ice cream and gelato.
+
+[18:50] And I've eaten it in small towns in Italy, in large towns in Italy, in tourist traps in Italy, and in the place where I was like, you must go have their
+
+[18:58] gelato. In Italy, right? And usually, what it is, is heavily loaded with stabilizers. super doped with flavors,
+
+[19:08] right? Like, that's why it has those intense punchy colors because they have so much. It's just so much of muchness. And it's good, but I wouldn't say that I would always want to have that over like a good old-fashioned scoop of and and I like I like the quote unquote
+
+[19:23] French but American style ice creams, which means custard based, and I also like, uh, love a good Philly style ice cream. Okay. Now, so in a Philly style ice cream, you're going to go higher on the cream. So you're going to probably go 2 to one cream to milk in that range. once you get in that range, you're running into a couple of big problems. One. If you overturn that sucker, it'll get kind of very buttery
+
+[19:44] tasting and you'll notice that, which is why, by the way, the ice cream machine I recommend for use at home is standard old rock
+
+[19:52] salt, ice, ice cream makers. They make an unbeatable style. They're pain in the ass, but pain in the butt. But they make an unbelievable ice cream. You know, just saying. But even with those, you have to be careful in very, very high cream recipes about
+
+[20:08] overturning. If you overturn your ice cream, it has a very characteristic buttery flavor that's different, uh, from a
+
+[20:17] grainness caused by ice crystals, and you'll definitely get a kind of butter note, uh, on
+
+[20:23] it, and I think sometimes the overturned stuff has a little bit of a shockingness to it, but I don't
+
+[20:27] know, I just made that up off the top of my head. Sounds right. Yeah, yeah, it sounds right. Could be wrong, but sounds right. Uh, okay, so that said, let's move to uh, ways to fix this problem. So typically, if you're going to add stabilizers, you want to add the smallest amount of stabilizer possible, or if you're in a natural head, you might want to go, well,
+
+[20:47] natural, because all this stuff's natural. I hate that. I hate this so much. Why did I even say that? The stuff's natural. What I mean is if you want to go into something that doesn't freak people out is what I meant. Uh, you know, go into the Carraginians, although that kind
+
+[20:59] of, was Carragin a freak out? I don't think, no, Kerogen's not a freak out. freak out? No, it does, no. Okay, so the good news about Carragin in it is it has a synergistic effect with milk, so you can use absurdly small amounts of it to get the effects you want. Uh, right? So typically in ice cream, they'll have a two-part system, they'll have a gelling system and a thickening system, one to prevent crystal
+
+[21:21] formation and the other one to prevent the wave from separating from the wave, it's all way off, way from separating
+
+[21:27] and, you know, preventing other problems. So typically you'll have a two-part system, like a carragin, maybe locust bean gum or a carragin and guar. And you can add very small amounts of that stuff and not make it gummy and do a really good job stabilizing, or you could buy
+
+[21:40] a commercial stabilizer basis, you know, things, and add them. And by and large, you can get them that are all natural. You don't have to get the ones when I say all natural. I mean, just like seaweed powders. You don't have to go to ones that have lots of like weird emulsiers in them, things like that. Another thing you can do. I know this is going against what you're doing. The great thing about this kind of ice cream that I used to like is that I didn't cook it at all ever. It was all cold. It had a real really, really fresh taste. A lot of people heat their Philly style ice cream so that they can get the sugar in, but I just waited a lot longer for the sugar to dissolve and never heated
+
+[22:12] it. So it had a real fresh flavor. So that's, I think, what you're shooting at. So I want to go for things that don't necessarily need a lot of heating. What you might want to do is take a portion of it, right? So, so, of the things that can't be heated that are good stabilizers, guar. Guar, doesn't need to be heated. You have to get the flavor free guar, though. Uh, another thing you might want to look at is, um, uh,
+
+[22:35] Jelen. Now, Jelen, you do need to heat to a boil, but what you could do is just heat a small portion of the milk with the gel
+
+[22:41] onto the boil, set it as the gel and then blend it into a fluid gel, and that makes a very good flavor release, super creamy ice cream, right?
+
+[22:49] Super creamy. It's on a cooking issues blog. Another thing you can look at, just good old-fashioned gelatin. Unless you are vegetarian, gelatin makes a very good, you know, addition to ice creams to decrease the amount of crystallization you
+
+[23:04] get. And you can warm a portion of the milk up to hot with the
+
+[23:08] jet, with the gelatin, then temper the rest of your milk slash cream back into it and still have a relatively fresh taste. If you want to go Sam Mason style and all you want is the uncooked flavor, but you don't mind adding things that aren't milk. He uses barely pasteurized egg yolks and they're not cooked into a custard. And that's also interesting. It's not the same thing as you're looking at, but it's also interesting. For a last thing on a milk based only, you might want to look at, and there's a small subset. You ever been to Sicily Stud? No. Me neither. Ed you ever been to Sicily? They make an ice cream over there. Me neither. They make an ice cream over there that where they thicken it with starch. It's cornstarch thickened ice cream. And I haven't had it, but there's a bunch of people on the internet who love it. And that stuff is so stabilized. It has relatively good flavor. Oh by the way, back on gelatin. The reason gelatin is good is because gelatin has a very good, good flavor release because it melts, 1st of all, it's not free sauce stable. So it breaks up after it's frozen and thaws out. It goes away in the mouth anyway, has very little flavor impact. Gelatin is like flavor
+
+[24:05] released part XMLs, right? Gelan, which I said before, which is microbe derived also. And by the way, I'm talking low asyl gel land, which is the hard one that you break up to fluid gels. Also very good flavor release. Starch in low levels has fairly good flavor release, but it does mask. You know what I mean? It does mask things up, but if you're dealing with straight, look, some people like it. I've done some starch-based ice creams that I hated, but they were very high starch-based ice creams when I was trying to make snappy ice creams. I mean, I like potato-based ice creams. I've done, you know, many, many versions of potato ice cream They have like a snap, but I haven't done starch, but a lot of people swear by it. Mark Bitten swears by it, or swore by it in his minimalist article, he wrote a number of years ago. But the interesting thing is, is that they're so stabilized. that you can make them with quiescent freezing and they still don't get big ice crystals, right? Which means that your machine, if it takes a long time to make ice cream, might benefit from that sort of ice cream base because it's going to turn out smooth anyway because the starch matrix is preventing large crystals from forming. So, uh, might want to give that, uh, give that a trial. There's a recipe for it on icecreamnation.com. You go check it out. What do you thinks does? Good. Yeah? You want to take a commercial break? Nice timing. Oh, yeah.
+
+[25:51] This is Chris Young, co author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Crilley, we've created something exciting and new at chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market, we're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love. And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible. At chefsteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen.
+
+[26:28] And through our forum, you can engage with our team, as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, chefsteps.com is entirely free to learn. Free to learn. That's crazy. That's crazy. Were you talking about an ice cream machine maker before? Is that who you called? Yes, I was talking an ice cream machine? And so why don't we just do all let's do all the ice cream in one in one chunk. All right. So, uh, by the way, uh, Chris assumes that if you're listening to this that you want to learn, nobody listens to this to learn. I'm just kidding. I just messing. Love, Chris. Were we going to schedule to see him sometime? Or do we no, we sent him a torch. Yeah, we'll see how that goes. Okay. How do you pronounce? What do you guys think? I-A-I-N. Ian, huh? Ian? Let's go. Ian? Ian in Herefordshire, UK writes in about batch freezers, ice cream freezers. Hey, Dave, Anastasia. Do you have any experience with ice cream batch freezers? So by the way, folks, batch freezer for ice cream, what that means is what it says. It does it in per batch. So you make a batch, you load it in, and you turn the ice cream for a specific amount of time, and you get the ice cream out. So liquid nitrogen in a kitchen aid freezer, that's badge freezing. It's not a bad freezer, but that's batch freezing. Using the hand turned ice cream machines with rocks and ice salt, batch freezing. The opposite of batch freezing is continuous freezers. Continuous freezers, constant amount of product is pumped in all the time, and it's frozen very, very short, short periods of time. So continuous freezers, all the big folks do it, you know, commercially, and produces can
+
+[28:21] produce with, if you use good ingredients, and you change, you know, amount of air that's in ice cream is called the overrun. And when you're using a continuous freezer, you just the overrun independently of
+
+[28:30] the, in a batch freezer, the dashers, the spinning things or what does the aeration and provides what's called the overrun, how much air is in it.
+
+[28:38] And so 100%, 100% overrun means that there is, for every milliliter of ice cream base, there is a milliliter of air. That's 100% overrun. It's done based on how much ice cream base you started with. And, you know, anything over a 100 is absurdly, you know, absurdly light and anything, you know,
+
+[28:57] the more premium ice cream. The funny thing about ice cream. I don't want to talk about this. The funny thing about ice cream, ice cream is sold volumetrically, right? It's sold by the pint by the quart. And yet the cost to produce the ice cream is based upon the weight of ingredients that goes
+
+[29:11] in and the quality of those ingredients. So anyone that knows anything about ice cream, if you go to like the corner truck, the ice cream truck, and they give you the
+
+[29:19] soft, a lot of people associate soft serve with being inexpensive or having a lot of air in
+
+[29:24] it. And that's really a function of temperature and mixture, ingredient mixture, not a function of overrun. So if you go to Carvel, which when I was a kid was like the awesome soft server, but it's East Coast only thing. don't have Carvel on the west coast, right? Yeah. So if you go to Carvel, which is like northeast, like, you know, soft serve ice cream, those suckers are dense. Their ice cream cone weighs quite a bit, right? But if you go to not calling you out, Mr. Softie. But some of the people have bastardized your it's a New York City ice cream truck company. But, uh, they're in those soft-serve machines. There's an orifice, and the orifice pumps the mix into the uh, chamber, uh, freezing chamber, and the uh, the size of the orifice determines how much air is pumped into it at the time when it
+
+[30:07] goes. So some disreputable ice cream truck, uh, uh, people will put an orifice in there that generates like 120% overruns. So you're buying more air than ice cream. And you can, those cones, they're, man, that cone looks
+
+[30:21] big, and then you pick it up and it's like a balloon floating out of your hand. It so light. Anyway, whatever. How did I get into that? Anyway, so a continuous freezer is usually only done by larger scale people. I don't consider soft serve machines, which do continuously add product. I don't really consider them to be continuous freezers because
+
+[30:38] they don't work on the same principle as a continuous freezer. There's only one continuous freezer that's available, i.e. not a batch freezer that I know of that's available to small run people, and it used to be made by Ross, ROSS,
+
+[30:52] which was bought by, I don't know how you pronounce it, because it's got the umla, but it's not pronounced sterleting, which is how you pronounce it if you're German
+
+[30:59] stielting. Stolting, I think is how they pronounce it. They bought Ross freezers, but that's a frozen custard machine, in essence, is a continuous freezer. That said. Okay, back to batch freezers. And back to Ian's question. Do you have any experience with ice cream batch freezer, TS? That's a key, right? Ian. Yeah. I'm about to start up a small ice cream company selling quality ices made from local fruits and other ingredients from a bike with a freezer attached.
+
+[31:23] I forgot that, I didn't really even read, how are you gonna, how are you gonna power that sucker? How are you going to get power to that? Pedal power. On the ice cream machine? Well, you're riding around town, putting a little generator on the back wheel? Good to go. Okay. I was local fruits and other ingredients from a bike with a freezer attached. No, I think what he's going to do. I think he means not a batch freezer. I think he means a dipping freezer. I don't think he means that there's going to be the actual equipment. Yeah, okay, I got you. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but that'd be awesome if you actually had the machine on a bike. First of all, your legs must be jacked. What's the name of that Scottish bike dude with the giant chain rings who had that movie made about
+
+[32:01] him? You know what I'm talking about? Anyway, this guy in Scotland, I think he's Scotland. amazing biker. He like... Is that the one who won like the championship very late in life and switched the style of biking he did? Dunt biker guy. No, no, no, no. This guy has a movie about him. He, like, won a championship much later in life and he's known for having incredibly huge chain rings on his track
+
+[32:21] bikes. so that he's like his anyway, whatever. Chain ring is the thing that you're... I mean, I can't remember his name. Nah, nah, nah. A lot of Scottish bikers out there. Well, you know, they're tough people. Okay. Okay, and I'm looking for a robust machine that can produce a reasonable output of ice cream in one
+
+[32:39] hour. I'm looking at about 9 liters per hour. I saw the Emery Thompson, CB200. Uh, and the other side, the larger size one I have is the uh, CB350. And it looks perfect, but unfortunately is not available in the UK until next year. Do you know any others around the same size and price? The other option I was thinking about was a paco jet, but I'm concerned that it might not be robust enough. Uh, they look great for restaurants that might want to do one portion at a time, but I would need
+
+[33:06] to uh, uh, pocotize, which by the way, Ian, is a word I detest. I would just say spin because pocket. I don't want to let those guys coin their own word. They're already charging you an arm and leg for the freaking machine and they're Swiss. everyone knows how I feel about them. Stas likes the Swiss. Yeah, so the half of us love the Swiss. I have no I actually have nothing against the real Swiss in the real life. I like to make fun of them, right? You know, watches and chocolate are great. you know. Okay. But the, uh, uh, uh, my point is, is that uh, don't don't let them have that word. Just say spin. That's what we say, spin. Uh, can uh, oh, okay. But I would need to spin the whole tub and do about 8 or 9 tubs in an hour. Can the pocket jet handle that? My budget is between 3 and 4000 great British pounds. I would appreciate if you can answer my question on the 21st or 28th of May, as I need to make my purchase very soon. PS, loving the show, just discovered a couple months ago and catching up on the old episodes. Well, here we are on the 28th to answer your question. I called the president, Mr. Thompson of Emery Thompson and asked him. And he's like, I forget whether you said 3rd or 4th generation ice cream machine manufacturers. And I watched his YouTube video on the CB 200. And unfortunately for you, Ian, that machine is kind of in a size slash price category of its own.
+
+[34:21] I haven't seen anything else that's kind of that low. So they retail in the U.S. for about 5000 like retail for 5300 and change. That means I'm assuming you can get it for a little bit less if you, you know, if you wheel and deal.
+
+[34:34] But what I asked him, when I called him, I was like, well, can, uh, you know, can this person just fly over from the UK, you know, using, you know, your awesome great British money and making us look like idiots here in the
+
+[34:45] US with our current state of our monopoly money. and purchase one from you that you outfit for the UK and take back. And unfortunately, Mr. Thompson said, no, the problem is, is that US 220,
+
+[34:57] US 220 is a different wiring schema from UK 220, because I guess you're using single phase 220 over there, and that they need to get an entirely different condenser unit for it.
+
+[35:08] It's made special. They can't just, you know, kind of, you know, rejigger or hack one of their units here for you. Although he seemed to feel for your problem. And also laughed when I said, is there anything else in that price? He's like, no, because I think that's going to be a category killer when it comes out. Your next best bet is that the 350. His version of the 350 is available. That's a 6 quart, I think, or 8 quart unit. And the other ones, I don't have an experience with their machines, but I do have a lot of experience with the Carpagani,
+
+[35:37] LB 100s. The problem with the LB 100s, or lab 100s, depending on which vintage you get, is that now you're talking a $10,000 machine,
+
+[35:45] US. I don't know what they cost in the UK. They're great machines. They do have some known problems. Like if you get one of the older ones with the clear plastic front. They break, they always break, and then you need to fix them. The other option in the U.S. I don't know if they sell them in the UK is Taylor. Taylor machines are cheaper than the LB 100s, but having used them. I was never a huge fan of the Taylor versus the LB 100s. If you could have a good used market. They do make a smaller batch. Carpagani makes a very small batch machine, like I think maybe 2 quarts, even smaller than the one you were looking
+
+[36:20] at, that's a vertical batch freezer and sits on the countertop. And that sucker, I've never used one, but supposedly has very, very high quality. Uh, but there's not that much in that size range that you were talking about of just a couple of
+
+[36:33] courts that performs on a professional level. So, sorry about that. Now, in the Paco jet, I, there's a problem with Apoco jet, right? Your question is, can I get away with using apoco jet? And the answer is yes, here's the bad news. You cannot get away with using one Paco jet because what will happen? It's not that you need 2 to run at any one time. sucker is going to break. Let me let me just be very clear about your Paco jet. Your paco jet will break. And now they will fix it, right? Uh, but, uh, at least in the US, they don't do the following awesome
+
+[37:08] thing. Oh, your Paco jet's broken and it costs an obscene amount of money and you can't buy parts from a normal person, so you have to send it to me to fix it. Oh, here's a loner that you can use while your pocket jet is broken because we know it's gonna break. In the US that doesn't happen. So they just say, guess what? Eat it, Jerko. And so you have to not have your paco jet for a long time or have to have a friend that has a paco jet. So if you're going to do this, you can do it, but you have to run 2 Paco jets at once. Also, so like pure food and wine, pure food wise, is that what it's called? Summer Melongaius's place. She has an ice cream shop that runs exclusively off of Paco Jet, and she has
+
+[37:44] 2 maybe 3, and she's been running for years that way, and it works, but she always has one when the other one goes down. Here's the other thing. Apocaloget, loves to charge you a lot of money for the stainless steel bane Marie that you freeze the ice. So Paco Jet, for those who don't know what to talk. People always say it's like a blender. It's not like a blender. It's like the world's greatest shaved ice machine. It slowly feeds a blade into the top of the, you freeze your base solid like a rock. And then it feeds the blade in slowly spinning and advancing at such a slow rate that the crystals that are shaved off are the same crystal size that you would get using a commercial ice cream machine.
+
+[38:19] They're fantastic. They're loud, but they're fantastic. You definitely can get throughput. You going to be running it all the time, but you need two. What a couple people have done with Paco Jets. Cleon Nils used to do it in Akavit and purer food and wine does it, is they freeze their base in
+
+[38:34] court containers, which are almost free. Although I've been told, when I say I've been told, when I ask people in other countries, hey, I need some core containers, they look at me like I'm an
+
+[38:42] idiot. I don't think a lot of other people use core containers, so find whatever the UK equivalent of a core container is, or buy some from the good old US of A, and freeze your base in the court containers. Core containers are a little bit tapered so you can pop the stuff out of the cork and you have to get the levels right. You pop the base out of the cork container and then you jam it into your Paco jet container and spin like that. The problem is if it's crooked, right? If it's crooked, then when your blade hits it, it'll hit one side of
+
+[39:09] the of the base only and you can shatter your pocket jet blades. Well, kill the pocket jet, but you'll shatter the blades. Blades are like $150. However, in the long run, you are going to save money by doing court containers because you need a lot of them to do the kind of thing you're doing and just buy yourself an extra blade.
+
+[39:25] Do not attempt to run an ice cream business with the Nemox or Nemox, whatever it is,
+
+[39:31] Fricks Air unit that was sold as a competitive Paco Jet. It will not, it works fine for the tiny little cups that it does, but it will not work for what you want. What do you think, guys, good? Good job. Did I do good coach? Okay. All right. Should we take one more break and come back or should we power through? Power through? Power? Yeah, power. Power. Okay. Got a question in this one actually is from Lucas,
+
+[39:57] right, if I can find it. Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Oh my goodness. I'll say in the meantime, if you want this episode named after you, you can still become a member. A few minutes left. Yeah, is that true? That's true. It still may. All right. Okay. Well, I'll take a different question while I'm looking for Lucas's question. John Stewart, not John Stewart from The Daily Show, a different John Stewart, which is his sign off line now. says hello to the Hammer, Jack, Joe, and Dave. My question is not very high tech, but is food related. We host an outdoor family movie night, and I provide popcorn. I've been making a bunch of batches in a cast iron Dutch oven on the stovetop, which takes a lot of time I'd rather spend elsewhere. This past weekend, I had the horror of actually running out of popcorn. Oh my god, my god. So clearly I need to step things up. It's taking too much time. So I looked at popcorn machines, which turn out to be expensive. You are correct. So the question is, if you wanted to make a large amount of popcorn, how would you do it? Or should I be looking at bar restaurant auctions for a used popcorn machine? Thanks, and keep up the good work, a different John Stewart. Okay. So, uh, yeah, you're a little bit. Okay, so here's what I'm assuming. One, you detest air popped popcorn because it doesn't taste good. That right? Anyone else with me on this? AirPod popcorn styles. Do you like AirPods popcorn? No. Eddie duck pipe? I'm not a big popcorn fan in general. In general? too much effort, not enough reward. It's all in your teeth. You're 20 minutes later, you're still digging it out. Well, you know, a lot of that has to do, I think, with like the popcorn varieties that they're making. I think they make ones that, like, so you get your mushroom and you got your butterfly. So your butterfly ones, your typical movie popcorn ones, and I think they have like a bigger surface area for capturing
+
+[41:36] things you're going to like coat it with butter flavor, but your mushroom types are better for ones that are going to be further
+
+[41:42] manipulated, like Cracker Jack style or things like that, which is like it. Anyways. And certain varieties are going to have more and less of the skin that's left on them are going to get stuck in your teeth because that's unpleasant,
+
+[41:52] unpleasant rather. And of course, better quality popcorns. You know what they call popcorn kernels that haven't popped? Widows. Oh, that's sad. It is sad. So now you're never going to look at the bottom of that. Oh. So, uh, anyways, yes, the manufacturer that makes the real ones is
+
+[42:08] critters. And critters makes popcorn machines all the way from the minuscule to the
+
+[42:14] gigundous continuous popcorn makers that can do like a ton an hour and more. They're awesome. Uh, amazing, but they are expensive. You're looking at probably for a small one, the kind that's like on the cart, right? Like a 1000 bucks. Here's the other problem. I think they're about a 1000 bucks. The other problem is, is that they take up a lot of space. Now, maybe you have a lot of space, in which case, I would definitely just troll auctions for one that looks kind of
+
+[42:40] beat, because they're kind of bulletproof. I mean, they work for a long time, right? But, uh, you know, they, they are going to, uh, they're going to require a lot of cleaning if you get a crappy one at an auction, but that is a way to go. My mom actually bought me. So the way I used to make that make it was with what's called a whirly pop. And it's still a pain, huge pain in the butt. So whirly pop is the aluminum pan with the 2 flapdoodle lids on top and the hand crank that you crank. So it makes fantastic popcorn, a lot easier than your Dutch oven technique with the shaking and the
+
+[43:15] shaking and plus the shaking of the Dutch oven. The whirly pop, the main disadvantage of the whirly pop is you still have to sit there and
+
+[43:22] turn it while it's doing it. Now, I also use the whirly pop for roasting coffee because I never got one of the newer generations of home coffee roasters.
+
+[43:31] And the whirly pop. I like the whirly pop because it's, you know, it's less of an air pop, an air roasted coffee, like
+
+[43:38] civets, roaster style, coffee flavor, and more of like a robot style or like drum roast coffee flavor. So I like it. And like I said, it also makes fantastic popcorn. But here's a modification I was going to do if you're handy. What I was going to do was put a motor, like cut the end of the thing off and bolt a small 110 motor,
+
+[43:56] and then with a counterweight on the other side of the pot, so it doesn't tilt, and then just run the whirly pop off of a motor.
+
+[44:04] Now, you could have that whole sucker done. Whirly pop plus motor. You could have that whole sucker done for, I want to say 50 bucks, 60 bucks plus your time, right? And that's going to make fantastic popcorn. Plus, you can be proud of the fact that you've hacked, you know, you've done a DYI solution on this. Downside is you're still going to have to listen
+
+[44:28] for when the popping stops or you're going to scorch your popcorn. Now, the whirly pop does a fairly good job of not scorching as long as you pay attention to it. And then you could just bang out batch after batch and you could be doing other things while it's popping, right? Second alternative that works similar to a whirly pop. It's a lot cheaper. I think it's also around 100 bucks. My mom bought me some, I don't even, I forgot to look at the thing on the way out. I don't know if it's wearing or what, but someone makes a home, maybe Jack, or you can find it. They make like a little red, like home version of a movie popcorn popper that works with
+
+[45:00] a little handle on the side that does the dumping, and it works on the same principle as a movie style popcorn popper in that there's a little basket that holds the corn, you put the oil
+
+[45:12] in, It starts popping as it pops, it pops out of that basket into a holding
+
+[45:16] container, and you can make batch after batch. I've used it at kids' birthday parties and it works fantastically. You still have to listen for the popcorn to stop so that you don't burn the stuff at the bottom, but the good news about this version
+
+[45:27] is, is if you don't pay attention and you let it keep going past the time and it actually burns the kernels, it's only burning those poor sorry widows that are left inside of the
+
+[45:37] thing. It's not burning the actual popcorn that's popped out and put into
+
+[45:42] the uh, into the basket. Now, it also keeps the popcorn fairly warm because it's inside of the tray. The other downside of that machine is because it's covered with glass all the way around and it's slightly smaller than the ones that you would use in a real movie theater is that if you don't open the door pretty quick after it's
+
+[45:59] done, It has a tendency to steam the popcorn that's on the inside. Steaming popcorn is a no-no. So what you want to do is drill holes in the side of that thing to allow the steam to escape, but not so much that the popcorn can fly out when it comes out. What do you think so? Good job, good. hacking equipment here. Yeah, we're hacking. And remember, if you hack it, you're avoiding the warranty and you may kill yourself and I don't want to hear about it because it's not my fault.
+
+[46:23] Maybe it's my fault. What do you think? Okay. Uh, this is from Lucas. Lucas says, hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. I went to a new Fulton Fish Market on Monday with a couple of friends with the intention of sharing the fish. This is such a great place, but no 2 words about it. It is a wholesale market. Hence, I have a lot of fish. I made some gravel locks with part of the salmon. My 1st question is simple. How long can I keep it in the fridge? Presumably you're not talking about the salmon itself. You're talking about the gravit lax when you're done, right? I love the market and it's quite a trip from the village at unhuman hours, because remember, the market is really running when, you know, you should be
+
+[47:02] asleep, unless you're a bartender. But I'm willing to make it every once in a while, the trip that is. Any other ideas how to use this market for a small household. Now, listen, Lucas. Most people. Oh, he also says, sorry about the bike ticket, my deepest sympathies for fragile and delicate nastasia for having to keep up with you a lot. Oh, brutal. Brutal. Sincerest regards, Lucas. Oh, man. Man. Damn. Okay, so here's the thing. If you live in the village, Lucas. One of your main problems is going to be that you have no space unless you are fantastically wealthy. And if you are fantastically wealthy, then you can visit the market and then buy your fish locally at a retail price. So I'm assuming that you are not fantastically wealthy. So I'm therefore assuming that your village apartment is small, which means you also don't have a large freezer.
+
+[47:50] If you had a vacuum machine and a freezer, there are some kinds of fish that do quite well,
+
+[47:55] if you put a hard vac on it for storage to freeze if you have a good freezer and a good vacuum machine.
+
+[48:02] You don't want to cook it in the vacuum bag like that under a hard vacuum because the quality is degraded, but storage and freezing under hard vacuum is
+
+[48:11] fine. Um, What I would say, things like this are good for 3 things. Parties, parties and more parties. When you're going to have a big party. Like, let's say you have that friend. I don't know how old you are. Let's say you have that friend and they're having the engagement party, right? And you want to blow them out, then go pick up a couple of salmon there, do like an awesome, like, you know, I used to, that was my standard thing. I would just poach up a bunch of salmons and like put them out with a bunch of different toppings and stuff. You know, I I think I did a good job. I think I did, you know, because, you know, this is what I do for a living. But, you know, like that. And then, like, that's very, very easy. Or anything like that where you, you know you're going to be serving a lot of people and it allows you to do a higher ticket item than you would if you were buying retail and to get high quality because you know you're getting it from the source.
+
+[48:57] Problem is, is you never know quite what you were going to get until you get to the wholesale market. So it's a little bit dicey for doing parties, but that's always what I, when I always use wholesale when I know that I have a wholesale quantity of people I'm going to be feeding. Otherwise, it's all about storage or making things that are going to last a long time. Like if you, like Pauline, who hopefully I'm going to get to her question from last week, you know, she does, she catches a boatload of, well, not a boatload because she's using
+
+[49:23] a, whatever. Anyway, a lot, a salmon, and she's making jerky and drying it. Uh, then, you know, that's another opportunity. If you want to go there and you're going to do products that are going to take a long time. Let's say you were going to buy a bunch of row and make your own batarga. Well, do not buy that wholesale. Go to, I mean, sorry, retail. Go get that stuff wholesale. Anytime you're going to make something's going to keep a long time. But I can't think of any other, like, I can't think of any other, like, normal day to day stuff. I think I'd rather buy my stuff, especially if you're buying stuff that's sushi
+
+[49:52] great because it's already been frozen once, you don't want to freeze it again. So anyway, hopefully that's helpful. Now, back on the how how long you can keep. I mean fresh salmon. actually keeps quite a long time. The problem is you don't know how long it's already been kept before you get it. So on fresh salmon, if you're going to have a problem keeping it and you're worried about it, then I would vac it down and freeze it right
+
+[50:13] away, because the earlier you freeze a fresh product in its lifetime, the higher the quality is maintained over time, because you don't get that quality
+
+[50:21] back. Like if you back down a piece of salmon, even vacuing it, if you're going to keep it refrigeration in refrigeration alone is going to keep your quality a lot longer than if you just, you know, keep it in the fridge.
+
+[50:32] But quality on something like fresh salmon, right is very, very influenced by how you keep it in the fridge. So you want to keep your fish like a professional would keep it. And what that means is like a skin side down, resting on a bed of shaved
+
+[50:49] ice in something that drains the shaved ice into a container underneath it. And then, uh, light, light, I don't actually cut, if you have a place that doesn't have a lot of other smells, you're not worried about it. You can almost not cover it all. Put a piece of paper that doesn't touch it, you know, like over the top. But, you know, a lot of how fish keeps depends on how much the temperature cycles and how much air is blowing
+
+[51:11] over it. If you have a lot of air blowing over it, the surface dries out too much and you can get off flavors from other things and you can transfer flavors. But if you have it really tightly wrapped over or things touching the actual fish, then you can get slimy nasty parts where this stuff touches. So you don't want anything touching it. You can wrap plastic wrap. If you have to over it, uh, but not touching the fish on a bed of ice and then check the ice when the ice melts, put a fresh bed of ice down. Remember, skin side down and not stacking a bunch of them on top and your fish will actually keep fairly well that way, but very few people. Here's why salmon goes or fish goes so bad so quickly in the fridge is people are like, you buy it from a fishmonger. They throw it into a freaking plastic bag, like it's like it's like dirty socks. And then you take it home in this dirty sock bag, and then you throw it in the fridge, and then some idiot comes and throws a bag of grapefruits on top of it, and then it's horrible. Horrible. Anyway, once you make gravel locks out of it, it's actually going to keep a lot longer. I tried to find an actual piece of information about how long
+
+[52:08] gravel locks would keep. Gravelox, by the way, is salmon typically salt, sugar, salt, and dill cured with or without weights. You cure it for a couple of days. It does prevent some bacteria from growing, but it does not prevent things like listeria from
+
+[52:23] growing and there's other spoilage bacterias. I've seen people say you get an actual extra two, 3 days out of it from the curing after it's cured. And I've seen people say it last a couple of weeks in there. I haven't found any hard data looking to see how long it lasts in the fridge, but from what I can see, the main thing from a pathology standpoint, from a pathogen standpoint, rather,
+
+[52:45] it would be listeria, because listeria will continue to grow on it. But if you actually keep it under proper refrigeration, listeria should take a long time to grow. The other problems are going to be more spoilage in less safety problems. But I could not find any specific things. And nobody wants to come out and say, you can keep it for 2 weeks in the
+
+[53:04] fridge and it won't be a problem because then if you get sick, you're going to go back to them and say, man, you said I could keep it for 2 weeks in the fridge.
+
+[53:10] And a lot depends on the initial bacterial loading of the fridge.
+
+[53:13] If you were of the salmon. If you're buying really good salmon, whole fish, the whole fish salmon, at wholesale market, filleting it yourself, you could see the gills, you could see the eyes, you see the skin, the quality of it.
+
+[53:25] You know, you'll probably get a good long time out of it, but I like those other fools, hesitate to give you an exact amount of time. And speaking of the exact amount of time, I have shafted Pauline again on talking about the bacterial safety of her smoked salmon in
+
+[53:43] Alaska. And next time, Pauline, what I promise to address this very 1st on the show. Here we go. Ready for next week, cooking issues.
+
+[54:01] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[54:10] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[54:29] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of
+
+[0:04] chefsteps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy.
+
+[0:19] Sign up now at chef steps.com.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Ron, your host of Cookies, she's coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria every Tuesday from roughly 12. 1245 or one depending on the Heritage Radio Network. Join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Also, Joe and Jack in the engineering booth, and Eddie, who's soon to be like one of the regulars in the engineering booth, and once again, we have on the
+
+[0:50] show our good buddy Ariel from UC Davis, RGC
+
+[0:54] Maspec expert. How you doing, Ariel? Pretty good. Thanks. How are you doing? Good, good. Oh, by the way, calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Stas, how you doing? I'm good thank you. Yeah? Anything interesting to report? Nope. Really? Nothing? No. I saw you pretty late last night Yeah, but I mean, other people did not see us. Did we do anything? I can't remember. we did anything. We went to edible school yard. Yeah, we went to the edible schoolyard. Thank you. Well, it was a thank you for an event that we didn't actually go to, but where we're auctioned off as doing some sort of a cocktail party at someone's
+
+[1:25] house, true? Like 30 people or something. We're going to do whatever, like with nitrogen, all sorts of crazy things. Nice, nice. And we're I'm going to inspect our puffing gun. The museum's puffing gun today after the program. I'm going to see if I can, okay, so I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. It's going to tick off Peter, our museum president or whatever in the heck director, whatever in the hell's title. But look, we're looking to get this puffing gun. We're looking to get this puffing gun ready for end of summer. And so what we're going to do is we're probably going to kickstart this thing to try and get some money in so that we can get
+
+[1:58] this stuff to build it out, right? Which means that in the next couple of weeks, I have to make it run, Stas. to go there and make it run. And report back. And I know that we said on the air before that I was going to do a Kickstarter for that
+
+[2:08] torch, and we still are for reasons, no bad reasons, really. No bad reasons, just because we're also working on another product at the same time that we haven't revealed
+
+[2:17] yet. And we have a little bit of question of which one we want to launch first. So we're holding off for a little while on the Sears all Kickstart, but it's not that we it's not that we've missed our deadline. We're ready, actually, to do it. It's just a question of strategory in the Booker and Dax team as to what's going to go up first, right, Stas? Is that pretty much true? All right. So, uh, let me go right into the uh, oh, by the how are you guys doing over there in the engineering booth? Yeah, I was wondering. We're doing Yeah? Nice. All right. My sister works for Edible Schoolyard. Maybe you saw her. Oh, yeah? What's name? Cecilia? Do we see her? No, we might have. Maybe she's not that important. I don't know Whoa. Austin on your own sister. like that a lot. We did record Alice Waters. What was it, 2 weeks ago? We're doing an evolutionaries recording with her, so her kind of whole life story. I just got finished editing that. How was it? How was she? Very good, very interesting. You know, she really doesn't want that edible schoolyard idea to be proprietary at all. She wants as many people to take it as can. So anyone out there, if you want to go eat a schoolyard, steal that crap because she
+
+[3:21] doesn't. Exactly. Yeah, right? All right. So Pauline from Alaska. I'm finally going to get to your question because I'm not as bad a person as people make me out to be. And maybe Ariel, how good are you on your food safety stuff? still up on that? marginally? No, a little bit. I mean you had to study that crap when you were doing stuff, right? Here and there. Yeah, a little touch of little touch of food safety. Ariel's kind of like me, I guess. As long as it tastes good, who cares whether you die? We do have a caller if you want to grab that first. All right. I will take the caller first, but Pauline, you're up first. All right. Call her, you're on the air. Howdies, Dave. Tasha at all. Hey, 1st of all, thanks for answering my uh, uh, Mocha question a couple
+
+[4:09] weeks back. Have a quick question about juicing on a Vitamix. Vitamix, we love thanks to you, by the way. Oh nice. I love that. Vitam makes a good, good, good blending product. Yes. Well, we've been making smoothie soups, you know, a bunch of good stuff, and my question is, when it comes to doing more of a juice
+
+[4:29] product, without having to get a, you know, a nut milk bag and squeeze it and all that sort of messiness, what would you recommend for straining?
+
+[4:38] So what kind of juices are you looking to do? I don't know. We've done like, you know, shard from the garden with greens and apple and ginger, you know, typical, you know,
+
+[4:50] overpriced juices from the juice bar at home. Right, right. I mean, so the problem, I mean, the main problem, if you're doing things like ginger, it's not such a problem
+
+[4:59] because there's not, I mean, there are there are things in ginger, but you're usually not using enough ginger to have it
+
+[5:07] completely, you know, fill your juice with a bunch of blended pectin. It's the, it's the blended pectin in things that are going to make things very, very difficult for you
+
+[5:18] to, um, for you to strain out, uh, because they just, yeah, they increase the, they increase the thickness of it to an extent where it
+
+[5:25] just, just doesn't want to strain very, very much. Now, what I will say is that if you do get one of the, I like the word nut milk bag, that's my new favorite word, nut milk bag. I try not to go to a dirty place with that. Right, right, yeah. You can try, but it's going to be difficult not to get to that place. Now, the, uh, if you get any one of these uh, straining bags or super bags that let you tie them off such that no product can get out of it. One really fast way to get liquids out like that through straining is to put them into a bag like that, tie them off, throw them in a salad
+
+[6:02] spinner, and just start spitting them out, and that little bit of extra centrifugal force in
+
+[6:07] the on the bag speeds your drainage by, you know, by, I wouldn't say an order of magnitude, but probably like a factor of five, something on that range, and it's also going to increase your
+
+[6:17] yield. So then what you do is you throw the bag in there, you give her, you give her a couple spins with the thing, you spin, and then you pull it out, then
+
+[6:24] you grab the bag, and you like massage the contents around to free up the pores, and you spin it another couple of times. And it's a technique. don't think I ever put it on the blog, but it's a technique I developed to help people when they're doing quick
+
+[6:35] Agar clarification. Because most people, when they're doing quick Agar clarification, they squeeze the, they squeeze the bag too hard and they extrude Agar through the bag and they also have a difficult time getting their yield up. And so that was something I developed to help with that. 2nd thing, you know, if you're not going to consume the juice right away, is you might want to go to monitorspantry.com, buy a little bit of Pectinex, ultra SPL enzyme, and blend that in with the
+
+[6:59] product, and that, you know, over, if you blend it till it's warm, then, you know, it's almost good to go right away,
+
+[7:04] but, you know, if you let it wait a little while, it really helps thin out your product and makes it a lot easier to just get more product through, for instance, a regular
+
+[7:13] chinois. Um, the other thing you can do, uh, see, what is another thing you could do? I mean, if you're having trouble, if you're having trouble, like a dual, a dual part strainer makes things a lot faster. So if you're going through 1st something coarse to pick up anything that's left over, now that there's a lot of core stuff after the vital prep, and then going through your finer, straining, like, for instance, a bag or something like that, then you're going to get a much faster drain through on the secondary strain
+
+[7:42] through. If you've gotten some of the bigger stuff out right away because it prevents kind of instant clogging. You still going to get fines clogging, which is like the small things are going to clog up all the pores very quickly. But again, just like a spoon that you're scraping along the edge of your strainer on the inside to
+
+[7:55] reclear the pores as you're going is going to make it drain faster. And of course, the good old-fashioned hitting the side of the strainer with your fist as it's going to kind of pop the stuff off the pores and help it drain
+
+[8:06] faster. Is any of this helpful or no? Yeah, so basically, I mean, there's not you're basically saying a strainer and a nut milk bag. There's not, there's not like a China, a really super fine china cap or something like that type of thing. Yeah, I mean, so like, you know, there's 2 basic ones we use that I call them both kind of chin
+
+[8:27] water or china cap. One is a piece of sheet metal with holes drilled in it, right? That's the coarse one. And the fine one is literally a piece of cloth, like a piece of a wire cloth, and
+
+[8:39] it's very, it can be very, very fine wire cloth. And those things are great. So like with those, you put it in. And initially, you pour your product in there and you hit it with, you hold the handle and you hit it with, you hit the right by the handle with your, with your fist, uh, and it, and it can rattle, or you just take a ladle or a spoon and constantly scrape the sides of the cloth to
+
+[8:59] re, uh, you know, re free up the pores. Yeah. And if you, they can be pricey, but or another alternative is go through an old school tammy, which is kind of a wide mouth
+
+[9:10] thing, and then you just take a pastry scraper and scrape back and forth across the tammy, and you can get very, very fine tammies. You can actually buy them industrially as bolting sieves or
+
+[9:20] as, you know, mesh mesh grades. You can pick what mesh grade you get because people use it to sort out particles like in the real life. And you scrape your pastry scraper across it and you can get a lot of, you know, a lot of products through that way, but I would recommend a
+
+[9:33] Shinois if you can get it because it kind of funnels the liquid down into a much smaller
+
+[9:38] area easier to catch into a Pyrex or a pitcher or whatever. And the sort of smashing motion is a little easier than the scraping you'd get with
+
+[9:46] a with it to me. Yeah, I mean, yes, that's true. I like this. The smashing motion I like. But, you know, you just you'll get a feel for it. The issue when you're smashing it. A lot of chefs I know, they like to take the spoon and jam it instead of the smashing. The one issue when you're smashing, you'll get like a bloop that'll fly up and
+
+[10:01] blop back down into your into your sheen water. Make sure you don't shoot the loop into the stuff that you've already strained. depressing. Right. Right. And I can use the damper as well for that. Got it. Thank you guys. They're really helpful. Hey, no problem. Let us know how it works. Okay, cheers. Hi, bye. Okay, so back to Pauline's question. So for those of you that do not remember, I will read what she is. Okay. Uh... This is Pauline, not me. I do not live in the interior of Alaska. I live here in New York. Okay, I live in the interior of Alaska and make annual pilgrimage to Dipnet the yearly quota of various salmon species, which sounds awesome. Like, it's like a good meat. Well, and then she goes on to say, this is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. That, and obviously the giant cabbage. Are we ever going to get that giant cabbage does? I don't think he's really interested. So what happened? Like, so I'm sorry, Pauline. digress again. You're on this document. We're talking about this right now, but like Steve Hubachek, the world's largest cabbage grower, right, in Alaska, because for those of you that don't remember, cabbage basically respond to number of hours of
+
+[11:02] daylight, and there's going to keep growing as long as the number of hours of daylight are high enough, and it's not freezing, those cabbage are going to keep growing, right? So they get cabbages that are, you know, well, well over a 100 pounds. What were they weighing? you remember? was a lot. It was well over £100 though, right? And so we were going to, we were going to, you know, buy, you know, they have a state fair in Alaska, I forget what town it's in, but they have an Alaska
+
+[11:24] State fair, and they have a giant vegetables competition, but they also have a, you know, a giant, uh,
+
+[11:30] like the, the kind of the queen or king, depending on what you look at. Nastasia likes to think of vegetables, his man and I like to think of vegetables as women's. You think of everything as women. That's not true. Not you. Boom! Boom. Anyway, so the, uh, so the cabbage is kind of the queen of
+
+[11:46] the, uh, uh, the bell of the ball, let's say. And so because it's like the most famous one. And we wanted to get one of Steve Yubachek's, he's a dentist, by the way, right, Stus? Yeah. We wanted to get one of his prize cabbages after the fair and bring him here and then make like
+
+[12:00] the, like the world's largest single head, uh, serving of coleslaw with like a chainsaw and a woodchipper. But somehow, it's like when
+
+[12:07] push actually came to shipping, he, like Steve was like, nah, I don't know. Not that, not that, not that, not that, that means that someday you and I styles are going to have to take an airplane to Alaska. A sea plane to Alaska. Oh, I got my dad used to fly seaplanes. That's red. Yeah. Uh, but uh, you know what the most, you know what the most dangerous kind of seaplane is? It's the amphibious ones with the wheels that come out of the pontoons because it, like all the pilots say, it's not a question of if you're eventually going to land and forget to pull the landing gear up and land with landing gear down in water, which instantly flips the
+
+[12:40] plane, by the way. Like you land with the landing gear on an amphib and you flip that sucker in the water. But more of a question of when is that going to happen? Kind of like crashing a motorcycle. Yeah. Anyway. I don't think it kills you, but it's just it's embarrassing in the planes ruined. Okay. Uh, so back to uh, back to back to point. Okay. The fishing is one of the greatest things about living in Alaska. I fillet some, cut some into stakes for near a media consumption, and leave a few hole for extravagant harvest parties. I would like to go into those extravagant harvest parties. What? Yeah, nice. And smoke, dry the rest. Not like that palid, pasty shaved stuff they sell in our store, in the store. Our smoked salmon should be almost jerky like and full of a smoky, slightly salty, slightly sweet flavor.
+
+[13:22] I love smoked salmon and want to do it better. learn more, et cetera. Thus, I'd like to hear what you might suggest, including ways you'd like to use this fish candy. And like I believe I mentioned this, even when I didn't answer your question. There is a huge difference between the
+
+[13:35] stuff that they sell in the store and properly, really beautiful, awesome, you know, Nova-style,
+
+[13:44] smoked cured salmon and locks. I mean, the stuff that you can get in a supermarket is indeed palate and pasty. But, you know, the hand sliced stuff is freaking awesome, but it's not what you're, it's not what you're looking for. And I, you know, like, I, like, I would think that uh, most of the stuff that they make the really high quality stuff, if
+
+[14:03] it since it apparently that's not the style that's appreciated by the actual Alaska natives, they're probably getting something that was uh, shipped back from uh, the lower 48 up to Alaska and then serve to
+
+[14:14] them and that would be an insult. It would be an insult to get for her to get this crappy salmon, like cured in the lower 48 in a substandard way, pre-sliced with some sort of preservative vacuum
+
+[14:24] packed and shipped up to her, right? Like it'd be like a smack in the face. Well, is cold smoked or hot smoked more, the favorite Alaskan style? Well, that's interesting. So traditionally, right? Traditionally, I think if you were going to smoke, you'd be smoking in a relatively large area, like a shed or
+
+[14:39] something with a relatively small fire, which would mean cold smoking, right? But that's that's kind of, that's kind of, that's kind of thing. So let's talk about the kind of trials and tribulations of curing and smoky fish. By the way, you know, back in the day when people cured fish because, you know, they were going to die otherwise. There was a because they needed the protein and whatnot. There are various different things have occurred and some have stayed around because they're more or less safe, but not all traditional smoking and curing techniques can
+
+[15:09] actually, or not a guarantee of safety. Let's put it that way. So the 1st, you know, the 1st thing is, is, you're probably not doing traditional, like certain areas where they cured fish. They didn't have a lot of salt lying around because it took a lot of energy to produce salt, especially in colder
+
+[15:28] climates or climates without a lot of sun where you didn't get a lot of drying effect or places where there's high humidity. They didn't necessarily have a large supply of salt. So they would kind of do low salt things with just wind drying and
+
+[15:39] um, and also uh, perhaps smoke. Presumably, you don't have that problem and you're doing what has become the more traditional smoking technique.
+
+[15:48] It might have been all along in Alaska for all I know, which is you're going to salt it for a
+
+[15:52] while or salt and sugar it for a while to get the salt content up. That's going to, A, that's going to be good for flavor, up to a certain point at which point it becomes too salty. And especially if you're doing the jerky candy stuff stuff, there's probably a good bit of sugar in there, which probably goes similar to gravelox cures, which can be anywhere
+
+[16:09] from, like, 2 to one, sugar, salt to one to one, depending on how you're looking at it, right? So you cure it to get a certain amount of salt into the meat, you're then gonna hang it wet for a little while to let the salt level equilibrate. It's called equalization, right? so that it actually seeps into the whole thing. That initial salt load is, and hopefully do this part under refrigeration, so listeria is not growing too much because the salt levels involved aren't necessarily, in fact, not only aren't necessarily, but shown to not prevent the growth of listeria.
+
+[16:39] Uh, you know, unless you super salt it, but then it's going to be unpalatable for straight eating. So equilibrate at fridge temperature. And then you're going to hang them up to dry with smoke, right?
+
+[16:50] So that's the technique we're talking about. And so I went around and looked about it. And by the way, you know, just look up on online with the relative actual brine
+
+[17:02] strengths. The problem with most recipes is they just give a brine strength, which isn't really 100% useful because it's going to depend upon the ratio of brine to fish and the soaking times and all
+
+[17:13] that. Other people actually just put salt on it. So I'm not going to try and get into this, I would just, I would just go to any one of the, uh, any university, any state university, for instance, uh, smoking fish at home from the University of Alaska. Fairbanks has like a website on this and follow one of their recipes for salt levels. Anyway, so the 1st thing you got to get rid of in salmon is parasites,
+
+[17:41] right? So, uh, like different kinds of worms that are growing in them, some of which
+
+[17:45] can uh, be zunotic. They can jump from salmon and infest you. Awesome, right? I think the one I read the study on was diphilo, both 3 asses, associated with eating raw Pacific salmon. Now, here's the bad news. Salting doesn't necessarily kill the larva. Cold smoking does not necessarily kill the larva. Hot smoking kills the larva, and freezing kills the larva. Now, there are some websites that have said, for instance, smoking fish at home from the University of Alaska
+
+[18:18] Fairbanks, says, these parasites, when you're talking about any sort of like a wormy parasite, can be destroyed by freezing the raw product at a temperature of 0 degrees Fahrenheit for 2 weeks or longer before salting and smoking.
+
+[18:30] When freezing the product at a home freezer. It may take several days to reach 0 Fahrenheit throughout the entire fish. Now, I thought it was very interesting that they wrote that you had to freeze it before you salted and smoked it. I read on the USDA where they didn't seem to care whether you froze it before or after. If you can. And you feel comfortable doing it. I highly recommend freezing it afterwards. And here's why. The more water that's present in the food, right? When you're going to freeze it. The more crystal growth you're going to get and the more texture damage you're going to get. And I would think it would alter the appearance and you get a higher drip loss, which isn't necessarily a good way to get rid of moisture in
+
+[19:12] this, in the fillets before they're smoked and dried out. Do you see any reason why you can't freeze it afterwards, Ariel? Don't think so. I mean, unless there's some, like, unfrozen brine that the parasites could live in, but that doesn't sound likely to
+
+[19:27] me. That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. USDA seems to think you can freeze it before or after. Yeah, well, they... I mean, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that because you're increasing the Brian concentration. Oh, yeah. Anytime you have like an ion dissolved. Right, but if you're increasing the brine concentration that much, you would think that that would kill that. That's true, that's true. I mean, I don't know. It would seem to me that you could do it. Now, then the question is, whether you're going to hot smoke it or you're going to cold smoke it. I would read just for your own edification. Fish smoking procedures for forced convection smokehouses, which is written in
+
+[20:03] 2001 by Kenneth S. Hildebrand, Jr. Seafood processing specialist at Oregon
+
+[20:09] State University. And they go through a lot of the parameters of smoking. Now, is that a book or a paper? paper online. You can read it online. And I would also go to the FDA, FDA's fish and fishery products,
+
+[20:22] hazards and control guidance, specifically processing parameters needed to control pathogens in cold smoked fish for
+
+[20:29] cold smoked situations. And like these are both online. Uh, and, you know, there's a, there's a lot, a lot of, a lot of data. So there's 3 things that you're, there's 3 main things that you're, that you're looking at. Uh, the thing that people are most worried about in um, cold smoking. I mean, some, if you're going to store something, Okay, okay, let's go on this. So if you're hot smoking, then you can be in an anaerobic
+
+[20:55] and back up, back up. When you're, we already talked about parasites, right? The smoking, unless you hot smoke to kill it is not going to kill the parasites, right? Another problem with, um, another problem with, uh,
+
+[21:09] microbes is listerio monocytogenes. Listeria can grow in cold environments, is not killed by cold smoking, is not killed by salting, right? So what you want to do is you either want to have to not worry about
+
+[21:27] listeria, which means if you are actually cold smoking, you'd think that cold smoking, would increase the listeria by a lot, but actually the range of cold smoking isn't fridge
+
+[21:37] temperature. It's more like room temperature up to 80, 90 degrees Fahrenheit. In that range, you will preferentially grow lactic acid bacteria, and the lactic acid bacteria
+
+[21:48] are good competitive inhibitors of listerial monocetogenies. If you heat high enough to hot smoke it, you're killing the listeria, wiping it out. The dangerous part in smoking is if you fluctuate in temperatures that kill and prevent lactic acid bacteria from
+
+[22:04] growing, but don't kill listeria. So in that weird range of like 102, 103 in that kind of like that range, you have a possibility of wiping out your lactic culture, depending on the
+
+[22:15] temperature, I have to go look up the specific numbers, but not wiping out listeria. So you want to make sure that your zone is either hot enough to kill lysteria or cold enough to not inhibit your lactic acid bacteria. That makes sense. that makes perfect sense. Okay. So then the other thing you want to worry about is you don't want a culture anaerobic bacteria while you're doing this. In very closely confined situations, you are producing relatively anaerobic environments. However, in cold smoking, the only way to really do cold smoking is to introduce a lot of air along with the combusting
+
+[22:49] products. And so it's almost always an aerobic process and almost always, therefore, will not be growing, uh, uh, clustardium, uh, any kind
+
+[22:57] of like clustardium in there, right? So, and this is all, don't take my word for it. Please do not take my word for it. Go read the USDA and the FDA's website on
+
+[23:06] it and, you know, some of the other safety sites out there. But those are the main, those are the main issues. Now, if you're actually carrying down to a jerky situation, then you're probably getting a
+
+[23:15] lower enough water activity that is not really, it's not going to be too much of an issue. And if you are worried about food safety on this kind of stuff, a little bit and they don't add it much commercially, but a little bit of pink salt, prank salt. uh, nitrites uh, on the fish will also uh, prevent any sort of uh,
+
+[23:33] clustering thing from from, from growing. And if you make sure you dry out the outside, not so fast that it's like totally dry on the inside, still wet. Right. So. So most of us when we smoke are taught to produce a pellicle on the outside, which is a dry thing on the outside.
+
+[23:48] However, from a food safety standpoint, you're much better having the outside still be at least tacky when you start hitting hard smoke on it because then the inherent antimicrobial
+
+[23:58] products properties of the smoke can have effect, whereas they can be blunted if you have a full pellicle on the outside. Yeah, that's also in the literature. Any good ideas, you guys, for you? I just eat that stuff. It's so expensive here that what they call salmon jerky and salmon candy that like I just eat it by itself. I never use it for anything. However, it would be fantastic grated over pasta. I mean, obviously. It'd be delicious grated over pasta. And noastasia likes almost anything greater over pasta. Right? true. Yeah. Although you don't like Batarga, right? Yeah? Someone I know doesn't like photography. ridiculously expensive. That's the problem with Patarga. And sometimes it's overcured and can have that weird flavor. You know what I'm talking about? It's hard for you to understand over the air, what? It's the kind of thing is you have to deal with sort of like white truffles. so extravagantly expensive. Yeah, shave it on stuff. Yeah, yeah, right, right. And so someone yelled at me, I forget what it was. Chris Young. maybe Someone was like, well, just because something's expensive doesn't mean that you can't do all kind of wacky, crazy stuff to it. I don't know, for me, it's like, it's like the time that someone gave us like a little block of tea that costs $400 and they didn't tell us that it cost $400 and we made a drink with it. You know what I mean? Like a bourbon drink. Bourbon drink was delicious though. Remember that style? Puert tea. some delicious stuff. Yeah, yeah. So it's the kind of thing where it's if it's expensive and then all about flavor? showcase the flavor. And not only that, it's like if it's really expensive, unless you're rich, right? You don't get to have it very often. So it's like any sort of nuance that's in the thing. I mean, your product, maybe your product you make like our bourbon drink, maybe it was better than the tea by itself. right? But that's not the point. The point is you can't have this tea very often, and you want to absorb all the nuances. Even if something's the best thing in the world, if it's, you know, dripping off of every rafter, then you can eat some of it by itself, enjoy its nuances, and then you can dork with
+
+[25:45] it because it's not prohibitively expensive to get more of it if you've messed up. You know what I'm saying? No, it's just my 2 cents. All right. Brian writes in about sulfites. So a lot on the food safety analogy stuff today, looks like. We always go in, what's it called? In, you know, in whatever. Hey, Nastasia, Joe, Dave, and whoever is in the booth right now. I like that one. Sweet. And Ariel, someone in the actual studio. I'm trying to dehydrate some apricots. Good call. I like dehydrate apricots. Yeah, your favorite? Your favorite? Blenheim. Mine, Blenheim. Blenheim's are good. Yeah, yours. You have any other favorites? Uh, not by variety. Yeah, Blenheim's awesome. California Blenheims. What are your thoughts on those Australian sugary ones that they dip in the honey and
+
+[26:28] then do, no, not your thing? She's making it not my thing face. I mean, I live in the Central Valley. So get some crap fine apricots. All right, all right, fair. That would be the Central Valley of California. Uh, and stars, but you have any apricot thoughts? No, I like mangoes. You know what, this is one of the reasons actually, like, people think I'm going to bust on it. That was one of the reason I like Stas is like just like the straight up non-sequitur. No, no, I like to hydrated mangoes. I mean, but like they can both be good products, right? In other words, you're saying that if you could push a button and wipe out every apricot tree and have dried mango instead, you would
+
+[27:05] do that. I'm with you, Nastasia. Wow. Thanks, Jack. Yeah, Jack Polin. Okay. It'll take like a good dried apricot over a mediocre fresh apricot. Oh, I will take any good dried apricot over a mediocre dried apricot. And you know what I hate? hard to get good fresh apricots. Yeah, they they're mostly suck. once they make it to the store, they suck. And here's something I don't like is like, no offense, California, but like the little, or it's actually, I think a lot of these are made foreign, but the little ones that are done whole, they're good, but they're not like
+
+[27:34] baller. They're not awesome. Like the big, flat, split, brightly orange Blenheims that you get from California, high grade California producers. Like, I would take those over many things in life. What? Oh, Brian, we'll get back to yourself. I question in a minute. Call her, you're on the air. Is this me? Yeah, how you doing? Okay, I'm good. I'm good. Two things. Hey, I called you 2 or 3 weeks ago about the pizza seal. Yeah, how'd it work? beautifully. I haven't even used it for pizza yet, but like tortillas or searing steaks, you put that sucker on the grill and get it on high for a few
+
+[28:11] minutes. I mean, it's it, it cooks things. Awesome. And you got you got it from that guy who's associated with modernist cuisine that's up in... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly the guy you sent me to. Nice, nice. So, it's, I mean, it's, I give that one 100% Sanford for food. Sweet, sweet. My actual question, and it's actually my single biggest cooking problem. is actually about washing dishes. On the west coast, they have taken quote unquote, the detergent out of the detergent. For water quality issues. And doesn't work? Does somebody sell on the internet like a £5 bucket of that that I can add back a
+
+[28:51] tablespoon at a time so my dishwasher will actually do something? Ariel, you up with what's going on with West Coast detergents? did not know that. Sounds like the kind of thing that California would pass legislation on first, but... So it's so what are they getting rid of it? See, I need a research. It's like they're getting rid of phosphates, right? Yeah, they're getting rid of the phosphorus. Yeah. And so they and I don't have those because I'm here in New York. So they don't work. They don't work worth spit. Well, I mean, you know, if there's a spec on your dish when it goes in the dishwasher, there'll be a speck on your dish when it comes
+
+[29:24] out, except it's baked on nicely now. Oh man. All right, so I'll tell you what I'm going to do. Stas, write that down. Email it to us as part of next week's stuff to research, and I'm going to research anything, because I haven't looked into it yet. Anything that there is to know about this problem. And maybe even I'll try to put in a call to the manufacturer and see whether they can give me some, whether they're willing to say that the stuff doesn't work as well.
+
+[29:49] It's like in the old days, with the model cement, right? Tester, if any of you ever make plastic models, testers, they had the Bluetooth cement that was safe, and the red tube cement that contained a bunch of toluine. And we all knew that the Toluin worked 9 times better. So we never bought the Bluetooth stuff. And I think testers pretty much agreed. They're like, yeah, the talluing stuff works better. That's why we still make it, even though it's not cool. But anyway, so I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll look I'll look into it. And if you want to also just shoot us like a tweet to make sure we don't forget, I'll do some research for next time around. All right, it'll be an email. I don't I don't tweet the speaker. All right. Very good. Thank you very much. All right, talk to you next week or talk about it next week. All right, cool. So back to Brian and his Sulfice. Okay. So I'm trying to dehydrate some apricots. I have an awesome, do you like apricot or apricot? Apricot. Apricot stars? Apricot? Apricot? I like 8 because it sounds like a monkey. Apricot. Okay. Because remember in Wizard of Oz who put the ape in apricot. No. That's the Cowardly Lion song, where they got that I ain't got courage. You remember this? Oh, my God, it came. been a while. Okay. You know, like, this is the thing. Like this generation just below mine or a couple things below mine, like, look, every
+
+[31:01] Thanksgiving you watched the Wizard of Oz. It doesn't matter. You watch Wiz of Oz, every Thanksgiving, and after like 10, 11, 12 times of doing this, you just know the whole movie. You don't need to think about it. anyway. I have an awesome Excalibur dehydrator. Good call. like Excalibur, like square format, Excalibur. Yeah, they actually make a white one. I don't know why you get the white one, but yeah, they make a white one, but it's the black plastic one. It's very good. It has the biggest. It's the most even of the small, normal, easy to get ones in terms of
+
+[31:29] dehydrating, and it also works in a square format, which is much better for anyone that thinks is straight.
+
+[31:36] Okay, uh, some recipes I found, say that the cut fruit should be dipped in either ascorbic acid, uh, an ascorbic acid bath or a sulfite bath in order to prevent browning, which bath is most effective for preventing browning and for how long should I keep the
+
+[31:51] fruit in? I have both ascorbic acid and some potassium metabisulfite purchased from my local homebrew shop. I am concerned about the health risk of sulfites, especially since my wife has asthma, and it seems like the sulfites can impact asthmatics. Thanks so much, Brian. Okay. Uh, yeah, so in in order, in terms of actually making fresh uh, fruits not turn brown. Uh, they sulfites, including uh, bisulfites and metabisulfites, are by far the best, uh, just in terms of that. And then just below them is ascorbic acid, right underneath that is
+
+[32:27] Blanch, an enzyme killing Blanch in or steam and steaming them to kill them,
+
+[32:35] kill to wipe out the enzymes. And then, well, well, below that is not doing anything. So, uh, if you go to the, uh, like the in quotes natural food
+
+[32:50] stores and you get the natural brown, gross looking, uh, dried fruits, you will find that not only do they look bad compared to their, uh, more
+
+[33:02] processed, shall we say, brethren, right? These ones are boys now, Stas. you happy? Yeah. But also, they don't taste as good because they've, you know, the oxidation isn't just a color
+
+[33:14] issue. It's also a taste issue. So what you're going to want to do is now, by the way, you don't want to over, if you add too much sulfites, if you were to just taste, if you're
+
+[33:25] not, um, what's the word I'm looking for, sensitive to sulfites, taste that powder. It tastes nasty. I don't like it. A lot of people say they can't detect the sulfites in things. I can taste sulfite and I can taste sulfite bath. The sulfites, the sulfur is actually getting consumed by the process of what it's doing. So you're not you're not getting all of the flavor on the fruit when it's done that you're getting if you dip and taste the bath by
+
+[33:50] itself. And so, and I've never used it as a dehydration aid. But according to the literature, when they're doing it commercially, they're using extremely powerful solutions of bisulfites, like on the order of 2 to 5%, which is well higher than what you'd be using, the folks at Excalibur, recommend dissolving between one and 2 teaspoons of
+
+[34:13] bisulfite or a little over 2 teaspoons of regular sodium sulfite, which you don't have, into each quart of water, which looks to me,
+
+[34:22] did some back of the envelope math, is about a half of a percent or in that range. You know what I mean? A half to a little over half, you know, up to 3 quarters of a percent, uh, or a little
+
+[34:32] more, and let it soak in that for about 5 minutes for a slice, they say, or 15 minutes for larger halved
+
+[34:39] fruits. Okay? So that's what they're looking for in sulfites. You're going to need probably a lot more than that of ascorbic acid. You're probably going to have to use, um, You can just sprinkle scorbic acid on, but I don't do that or make a, and toss it or make a bath. But I would probably do a percent or 2 of ascorbic acid. And I wouldn't bother buying the fresh fruit stuff, like what ball makes, because that's just a mixture of citric acid and ascorbic acid. The citric acid isn't really an antioxidant. It's just lowering the pH, which makes it more difficult for the enzymes to do their dirty work, right? Now, the, if you're going to blanch as opposed to using sulfites. The problem is, is that that wipes out the enzymes, but it isn't actually an antioxidant. And so even without the polyphenol oxidase enzymes that are in the fruit,
+
+[35:31] eventually over time, you'll get non-enzymatic browning of the product. So it's not a long, long-term solution. Another thing you're going to want to do with apricots is to push the,
+
+[35:43] like when you take the halves, push the halves, to break their backs. That's going to open up more of the fruit of the apricot to speed your dehydrating, and the faster you get it down without case hardening it, the better you're going to be from a quality standpoint.
+
+[35:55] On sulfites and asthmatics. I went to fabia.com, which is now owned by thermoscientific. Uh, and they're the people that make the rapid uh, immuno assays for different uh, allergens. Uh, and so they have a very good website, uh, fadia.com,
+
+[36:11] p-a-dia.com. Now, their their gig, what they make their money off of is protein-based,
+
+[36:17] uh, uh, you know, IGE, uh, antibody tests assays, which are protein reactions. So they don't really do sulfites, but they had something on it. And their website, which is pretty good, says that roughly under 2% of the general population has some sort of sensitivity to sulfite at some level.
+
+[36:38] Now, the issue is everyone who's, everyone who says that no one has a problem with sulfites, especially in wine,
+
+[36:43] just go like, well, there's natural sulfites in wine. And it's true, it's true, but, you know, the fact of the matter is that, um, sulfite is not like an all or nothing situation, it is very dose dependent on what kind of reaction you're
+
+[36:57] going to get. So 2%, less than 2% of the general population, less than. We dont know what the number is, less than two. is sensitive to some reasonable amount of sulfite in food. Now, on the flip side, if you are asthmatic, and
+
+[37:11] probably, according to the data I've read, if you have asthma that responds to steroid therapy, right, in the form of steroid
+
+[37:20] inhalers, things like that, 4 to 8% of asthmatics in that category are sensitive to sulfide.
+
+[37:27] So you're looking at probably 4 times greater than the average population, which is a lot, but doesn't mean that your wife is
+
+[37:33] necessarily, um, you know, allergic to it. Now, it's not one of those things that is, where it's like, well, people are, you know, they're just hysterical about it. There's been a double blind placebo studies with sulfites
+
+[37:49] in sealed capsules so that there was no possibility of tasting the sulfur.
+
+[37:53] Now that's the gold standard for allergy testing. And it's how it was proven, Nastasia, that MSG is not something that causes reactions, double
+
+[38:04] blind, placebo, capsule-based studies. And so people who reacted positive to that were given different levels of sulfites in
+
+[38:15] wines, and a good bit of blind, and a good bit of them had very severe asthmatic reactions to it.
+
+[38:22] So don't fool around with it. You're going to want, if you think that she might be, you know, if she does, if she has, like, you know, wines that are known high in sulfites all the time, and she eats dried fruits and she has no problem. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, she has no problem. If she's had problems in the past, I would go to a doctor and they do what's called a challenge study where in a controlled environment in case you go
+
+[38:43] into, in case you have a very severe asthma attack. They, uh, they can fix you right away. But following the rules that the Excalibur people, you're probably going to have a lower level of sulfites than you would in a highly doped out commercial thing
+
+[38:56] anyway. And if she has no problem with that, she probably won't have any problem with yours. Yeah? Yeah, I would tend to agree. Do we have a color? Oh, he was motioning. Break time. Oh, gonna go to commercial break? We'll be back with more cooking issues.
+
+[39:13] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of Chefsteps.com. We've just launched our free short course on verification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid, a culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.
+
+[39:37] Our free course offers helpful step-by-step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct verification. We also explore the science behind verification, so that you can go beyond our recipes, and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And, as always, at chef steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine, and
+
+[40:11] if like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like.
+
+[40:16] Sign up now at chefsteps.com. And even if you're not a fan of us, you can go there. You might like them anyway, even if you hate us, you might like them, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh, we had, uh, oh, Stas, I might as well get this with you going. You know, anyone who's a regular listener of the show knows that Nastasia does not enjoy the
+
+[40:35] hipsters or really, I mean, I like Brooklyn fine, but Nastasia also doesn't enjoy the Brooklyn so much mainly because of the hipsters and the really bad
+
+[40:42] roads, right? Yeah. But you hate the I also hate the bad roads. I hate the bad roads. I don't hate hipsters, but the roads are a joke. I especially don't like having to pay tickets to use them. But it's okay. When's your court date? You're supposed to write it on my calendar. I handed you the slip so that we wouldn't forget. We'll look it up when we get back to the lab. Next week I might be in jail. Who knows? Anyway, so Tony Brudori wrote in, from the website, sending us from the website, K
+
+[41:11] XKCD, which is like a... Yeah? So why don't you tell us something about it, since this is the 1st time I've seen it. XKCD, it's a fantastic minimalist webcomic about science and math and... Things like that. Love too. Yeah, so we like those things. The big things. Did you look at the comic? Yeah. So it's a comic with so it's a graph of time on the on the X axis. And on the Y axis is prevalence, right? Or as it's put here, how often I see dot, dot, dot. And it starts out and time is over the course of years. this is a plot over the course of years. And what's interesting is, is that the 1st part, the 1st line in the graph is hipsters. How often I see them? And it follows, basically, a logistic equation for growth where it starts out in basically a log phase
+
+[42:04] growth, that's, you know, goes into a log phase growth. And then after the log face growth, it kind of plateaus out to a certain kind of stable population
+
+[42:13] number of the carrying capacity of hipsters, presumably in Brooklyn or whatever it is, right? For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, logistics, oh, good Wikipedia then. All right. Then, uh, uh, then a similar, slightly lower, right, below the maximum number of hipsters, right, is complaints about hipsters. So what's interesting is the carrying capacity for the complaints about hipsters. like you have like a lag of about a year while you're incubating the beginning of the complaints about hipsters. And then they go into their log phase of growth. And they plateau out slightly below the actual number of hipsters. So there'll always be more hipsters than there are complainers about hipsters, which is depressing from
+
+[42:54] Nastasia's point of view. Because it means you can't win. Right. Right. Then a slightly smaller and much lower carrying capacity with a much longer lag phase is complaints about the constant use and discussion of the word hipster. Right? And then, and then even it's still in the log phase. We don't know what the final carrying capacity is, but presumably lower is complaints that every level of meta opinion on hipsters represents the same tedious naval gazing by insecure
+
+[43:17] people, right? And then just starting, but with an extremely extremely high
+
+[43:22] thing plateaued out right away, like after a unit of one is graphs making it all worse, which includes itself. It's a self-referential. So thank you for that. And, you know, and stuff. Randall Monroe. Draws that color. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Is he is he a good fellow? Yeah, no, I've been reading it for like 8 years. Big fan. Nice. All right. Now, a couple of quickies. Aaron Moran writes it, Moran or Moran? do you think? Moran. Moran? Okay. Writes in about the VACMaster. Hammer and the boys. I like that. Hammer and the boys, Hammer, Ariel and the boys today. Okay, I'd love to hear Dave follow up on the Vacmaster VP 112 question he got about a month back in regards to, why did I, why did
+
+[44:01] I, uh, monster trucks that one? I don't know. Anyway. By the way, when I do that voice, what that voice is is the monster trucks. Yonkers, race away. Question he got about a month back in regards to his particular model being comparable to the mini pack or
+
+[44:15] other, you know, commercial vacuum chamber vacuum machine. If you could go a little into detail as to where the VP model doesn't measure up, even better. In my case, the machine would be used in residential applications, it would never be used in a commercial setting. Thanks in advance. Aaron Moran from Edmonton, Alberta. Okay. So again, I have never used it myself, and the issue with it is, is that it doesn't have the same kind of very strong vacuum pump, and
+
+[44:43] it also has a much smaller chamber size than is in any of the kind of commercial machines that I'm used
+
+[44:48] to. Uh, Herve, uh, from the French culinary institute, the international, what do they call themselves now? International Culinary Center? Culinary Center, who has taken over my role there as being the tech guy and he's more legit
+
+[45:04] in Frenchiness. He's like a serious actual Frenchie. Anyway, the VACMaster people sent him a free one at the school to test. You know what we got? Kardopolis, cut up police. Anyway, so like we got that's that's that's some language for Nina for nothing. anyway. So, uh, goose eggs. So like, I've never used one, so I can't make any real comments on it. seems to like it. My guess is that it won't handle. He said he did some vac infusion. My guess is that it won't handle liquids very well. It's going to be difficult to clean because it's a, you know, diaphragm pumps. I think, or maybe it's piston. You're gonna have to run it a long time to get any vapor that's trapped in it out. Um, maybe possibly put a desiccant in near it. I don't know, to get rid of the stuff when it's sitting around. But it's just not going to be as fast or as baller or have as big of a thing. At home, Erve seems to think it's going to work well. I'm hesitant to recommend anything I've never used myself. That's fair Tom Fisher writes in about Coon Recon. Dave, Nastasi, Jack, Joe, and now Eddie, although it's not in there, but I'm sure he would have called him out.
+
+[46:08] And if you knew Arielle was here, I'm sure you would have called her out too. I finally got a coon recon pressure cooker during the 1st use. I noticed that after the valve begin to rise. I was getting a quiet hissing sound with occasional wisps of steam. I like that word wisps of steam. Once the unit got up to pressure, the wisps of steam stopped, but the top valve continued to make a quiet hissing noise, twisting the valve
+
+[46:30] cap slightly reduced the sound for a moment, but shortly it returned. Is this normal? Thanks, Tom. Okay, so for those of you, uh, and, uh, my, my coon recon is at the lab. I actually don't have a pressure cook anymore, my electric one finally died. Now, so I have to take my pressure, be like, wow, poor me. The KitchenAid one that we... Cuisinart that I hacked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I did. It's like, but it's like dead. Like, it's not like it's just dead. So I have to look at it. I could probably fix whatever. We're not we're not talking about Queensland right now. Okay. So, uh, Kun recon, uh, has, or the old ones that I have have a, like a silver face plate and then a, a, a knob that pulls up and down. The knob that pulls up and down is a spring loaded valve that has 2 red lines on it that indicate the pressure that's in it. It's actual pressure gauge. And it's hooked up to a spring on the underside of the thing as the steam pushes
+
+[47:22] up. It pushes that valve up and that what is what registers pressure. If you were to lift the little kind of plate, the guide plate out, the stainless one that surrounds
+
+[47:34] that. There's also a 2nd button on the coon recon that is a little metal piece and rubber that is a secondary
+
+[47:44] safety. That guy is going to continue to hiss until it comes up to pressure, and then it should self seal, right? Especially if you have a relatively new one. So what I typically do because mine's old and I haven't replaced the rubber is I sit there and with the back end of an offset spatula, I just whack that thing until I seat it and it just stops hissing
+
+[48:04] altogether. That's the little that's the little button on the right. The actual pressure knob that moves up and down should not leak unless you
+
+[48:11] overpressure it. Once you take it past the 2nd ring, and another about three eighths of an inch beyond the 2nd ring or somewhere in that range.
+
+[48:20] It's going to vent violently up through that pressure knot. And that's one of the safety features is that it starts venting steam through that. It should not vent steam through that prior to that happening. If it is, it is simple underneath the red
+
+[48:37] part, when you have it disassembled, unassembled, unscrew it, clean everything,
+
+[48:42] you actually don't want to put, I done it once, you don't want to put like oil on it to make it smooth because what happens is the oil will tend to polymerize and gum
+
+[48:51] up, and then, you know, you have other issues with it coming up. But just make sure that it's screwed down tightly and that all the parts are in order. But no, that should not leak. I mean, maybe make a make a tiny, but you shouldn't get steep. That was a noise. They shouldn't make like a, it shouldn't make a lot of hissing. You definitely shouldn't see any steam, and you should be able to stop that button on the side that you is not visible normally when you're doing from hissing. Let me know if you're still having problems because, you know, you having problems is interesting to me. Uh, especially on a Kun recon. Nicole Craig writes in about pasta. from the restaurant root in Nola, which I'm assuming means
+
+[49:32] New Orleans, Louisiana. And not, you know, north of Lauston. No, kidding. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of trying to reconstitute some housemade granola into a sort of
+
+[49:44] pasta or possibly even a cracker. The granola has some currants and raisins in it, not a lot, so I'm thinking of steeping this product in milk and then spreading it onto a
+
+[49:52] silpat and putting it into a dehydrator. And I can't use a machine to make the pasta because of the oil in the oats. That's probably plus the sugar. Like, don't ever. I've put sugared things into pasta. Whoa. Whoa, and oily things. Oh, no, no. That's a never do again. What was the dough we fit into the pasta thing at the school and it just got sucked into the pasta thing and like wrapped around it like 8
+
+[50:17] times and we couldn't get it out. We couldn't get it out. Remember that? We threw it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was a nightmare. And, like, you can't put water on the pasta machine to clean them. Yeah, Stas is having memories, memories, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, so don't do that. So I'm also thinking of making gnocchi. Any suggestions on a good way to do that? Thanks, Nicole Craig. Did you look up the restaurant there? Yeah, it's in New Orleans. I'm going to go there when I go down there. No, no. Okay. Here's my thoughts on that. One, most of the time, if you're going to make a cracker or something with granola, you do it by cooking off the oats dry, then adding the
+
+[51:03] granola-e crap to it, the honey, the sugar, the butter, anything like that. And those products are used as the binder to bind the product into a granola bar-ish or
+
+[51:16] cracker if you go really thin shape, right? So if you're dealing with a product that's already been cooked and you want to make a cracker out of it. I think if you, well, 1st of all, if you soak it in milk, you're going to be taking away a lot of those products that are in
+
+[51:31] it, and you need to add them back because that's all that's binding it, really. I mean, you might get some kind of starch out from the from the oats that help bind it, but I'm not sure. But what you could do. You could probably blend it, uh, blend it, blend it, spread it thick on a silpad, dehydrate it. The sucker will probably hold together on the basis of what's already in there, or you could do what Anna
+
+[51:54] Ginsberg from Daily Cookie on the Cookie Madness website does, and just add more butter, brown sugar, honey, and syrup to
+
+[52:04] the, to the granola, which you can then powder spread out. And then she does that no bake. So it shows it's in a dehydrator, or you could do it like tuile style in a dehydrator and dry
+
+[52:13] the stuff out and make it thin. If you don't want to add extra sugar, You could probably also melt yourself, you know, some other, you know,
+
+[52:21] non-hyper sweet product like isomalt or something like that, melt it and tweel it out that way and make something really crunchy. Now, on the gnocchi, I was trying to find anyone that had a recipe for a gnocchi that contained
+
+[52:34] pre-cooked, um, dry starch based stuff. And we all know that, you know, like potatoes are put in, they're cooked in it. But I wasn't able to find anything that used a dry, soaked cook thing on a gnocchi specifically. And I looked, actually, I'd look for my copy of my old Bujali books. Giuliano Bujelli, because if anyone had one, he would have a crazy recipe for something like that. But it's entirely possible, obviously, to soak, to soak bready things and then add them back to new things.
+
+[53:03] I'm going to tell you, this might work for a sweet style, uh, gnocchi. I don't know how to do it, but a recipe that I used to make a lot. I, when I, when my mom, my mom had all her cookbooks in the basement back in the day, and I would go down and read them, including like
+
+[53:19] the, uh, the, was it, woman's day cooking encyclopedia, which I read the hell out of. Right? Read the hell out of that thing. And then, uh, my mom, like, like right at the, right when I was finishing high school and I would come back from college and read recipes, including things to make, uh, while I was wooing my wife, uh, was a gourmet's best dessert, circa 1987.
+
+[53:39] And on page 328 of that book, there's a recipe for steamed cranberry pudding with Grand Marnier sauce. And I used to make that thing all the time because I was obsessed for a little while with steamed puddings, but I wanted to do an American steamed pudding, not some sort of British
+
+[53:52] thing. And plus, I had even less patience then than I do now. So the idea of making like, you know, a Christmas pudding and aging it for a year. I was like, the hell with that? Okay, my age of pudding for a year. What the hell do I look like? You know, that's like big chunk of your life when you're, you know, 19. Uh so anyway. So the recipe for that, which I will, which, well, I'll tell you. So basically with a steam pudding, the upshot is, is they use dried breadcrumbs. They mix it back in with some flour, eggs, and
+
+[54:17] butter, and a little bit of leavener, and then steam it together, and it holds together its
+
+[54:22] shape, and it's classic to make it with a pre-cooked farinaceous product like breadcrumbs.
+
+[54:27] But I'm sure granola would also work. So I'll give you their recipe real quick. 3 and 3 quarters cup of cranberries, and half cup of blanched almonds, pulse those things to break them up. Add a little more than a one of three-quarters cup of sugar, cinnamon, like three-quarters teaspoon cinnamon, quarter teaspoon all spice, quarter teaspoon, ground ginger. Uh, and then uh, mix that stuff all together. Now take your 3 cups of breadcrumbs, or in your case, pulsed out granola, maybe lighten it with a little bit of breadcrumbs,
+
+[54:56] 3 quarters of cup of milk, and 3 whisked eggs, and a tablespoon of baking powder,
+
+[55:02] a little bit of salt if you need it, depending on what kind of butter you use. Mix those things together, combine the 2 things, fold them together, put them. Now you have something that would normally be a steamed pudding, but it would seem to me that you could probably poach that stuff out. If you had like a nice flavorful thing or if you added some methocellar or something to hold it together. You could probably poach them like a gnocchi dumpling, right? If you made it a little more, if you added a little more binder to it, you could probably figure out some way to poach those out or to
+
+[55:27] like, like steam them or something. Yeah, steam, just little... Yeah, steam little pudding things. And then the glaze that they added, which is awesome, which you would just take, you would take cranberries and a little more sugar, cook them down to make a cranberry sauce glaze, which you pour over the top, and then a
+
+[55:41] grand Marnier sauce, which is butter and grand Marnier, like a beurre blanc with grand Marnier, which is ball, it's a baller dish. If you're actually going to make a full pudding, you're going to steam it for a couple of hours in a pudding thing, make sure you let it cool sufficiently before you unmold
+
+[55:54] it or it'll just explode under its own weight when it comes out. But that's it's a good, it's a good product. What? They're cutting me off. Oh, well, next time I'll talk about Rachel Dutton, who we met, who's like the microbiologist at Harvard, who has some interesting things to say about clustridium, and cultures in salt raised
+
+[56:14] bread and Redding of cassava. And the question we got in right before the show that James had about
+
+[56:19] Aguar clarified Jins. So we'll get to that next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[56:37] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of
+
+[0:04] chefsteps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy.
+
+[0:19] Sign up now at chef steps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushway, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:38] issues.
+
+[1:04] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies? Oh, cooking what? Cooking what? Cooking issues. Coming to you live from Oberta's Pizzeria in the back of Bushwick, Brooklyn. On the Harry Twig. And a host of cookies. I wish. Can we start a new show? It's called host of cookies. Actually, that would be Tozy's show, right? That would be Christina Tozi show. Cookies issues, yeah. Cookies issues. She can handle that. Maybe she should just maybe we could get her to guest host one time, just do cookies issues. Right? What do you think, sis? Sounds good. Yeah? Save us a week of work. Just kidding. Anyway, joined as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Yes. Anything interesting happening? Nothing? Nothing? Really? Not since I saw you 8 hours ago. Remember, the people who are listening haven't heard from you since last week. Yeah, you know, think people, how many years have we done this show, Jack? I think going on like 3 now, right? Three years. Something like that. Three years. Nastasia still has not figured out that the people who are hearing this don't hang out with us all the time. weird, right? Well, I haven't done anything interesting since the last time I spoke. All right. Have you? It's kind of sad. Have I? I don't know. I feel like I have. I don't know. I have to think about what I did last weekend. I feel like I have, but I haven't thought about it. What about you, Jack and Joe, in the engineering booth? Uh, I'm going to Bonnaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Wednesday. Nice. We're throwing a pizza party there. Nice. Well, I did do something interesting. Actually, last Tuesday, right after the radio show, in the evening, Heritage Radio had its 1st ever all host meeting. Right, Jack? All host meeting. Nice, sweet. And uh, you know, uh, maybe maybe after the uh, 1st uh, break, maybe Jack can say some of the changes that are
+
+[2:55] going to be happening on uh, on our fine network over the next over the next year or so, right? lots of fun stuff. Yeah, you want to do that? Sure. All right, cool. All right. Now, and Joe, I didn't hear anything from you. You doing all right? Well, I'm covering for Jack while he goes to Bonarus, so. No, so not so much. So you're going to be, you're going to be moping. All right. Last week, we had a question about, oh, by the way, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. We going to be here for the next 45 minutes or so. ready to answer your questions. Now, last week we got a question in that I wasn't prepared to answer about phosphates and dishwashing
+
+[3:28] detergents. So, for those of you that don't know, a couple of years ago, a bunch of states, and then I think finally the federal government said, you know
+
+[3:38] what? You're going to have to reduce the amount of phosphates or eliminate phosphates in detergents like laundry detergent. Now, the big one has a, it has, it's all the same crud, but it's, it's, um, it's either called, uh, it's
+
+[3:52] tri sodium phosphate, but it's also like, you know, sodium, tri, polyphosphate, and sodium. So it's either like, uh, you know, TSP, STP, STP, uh,
+
+[4:02] and uh, what they are, uh, is just awesome detergent
+
+[4:07] awesomeness from it. So lots of things are like that, though, right? So lots of things are amazing at what they do, but cause problems. For instance, asbestos, asbestos? Freaking amazing insulator, completely dimensionally stable,
+
+[4:21] uh, you know, really fireproof, um, you know,
+
+[4:25] awesome from a technical standpoint, awesome. Also kills you. You know, so, you know, you can't you can't have it both ways. You can't have the awesome fire retardant mitts and also live, it turns out. Um, but, uh, so the phosphates, it's not quite as bad as that. It's not that it's going to kill you. The issue with phosphates and the reason that they were removed is
+
+[4:47] because according to a bunch of research, one of the limiting factors in algel growth in water bodies is free
+
+[4:56] phosphorus. And so if you dump a lot of extra phosphorus into the
+
+[5:01] groundwater and it seeps its way into, you know, rivers and lakes and streams and whatnot, you'll get huge algel blooms,
+
+[5:07] it'll choke choke out the life in there. And so that's why they say to get rid of the phosphates. Now, phosphates were introduced into detergents, uh, I
+
+[5:18] think, according to some of the research I was doing, I was poking around, you know, fairly soon after World War
+
+[5:23] II. And so what do they do? According to Cascade, who is cascade, the dishwashing people, who've removed phosphates from their detergent, this is what they say the phosphates do.
+
+[5:33] Phosphates helped with dishwashing performance by facilitating food removal, removing the calcium that binds to these types of these types of food
+
+[5:41] together, and ate it in grease removal. They also helped control water hardness and bound suspended soils within the wash water so that they did not redistribute onto the plates. So, and so in that little nutshell there. Like what tells you is that phosphate, when specifically this kind of phosphate, trisodium phosphate, TSP, or STP,
+
+[5:59] what everyone would call it, are freaking amazing because they do a bunch of different things. First of all, they do what's called kelate and sequester calcium ions and other metal ions.
+
+[6:09] What those things do, if you don't do that, is they redeposit on
+
+[6:14] your stuff and make a film. Also, that disgusting film, you know, stars that disgusting film you get around a bathtub? Yeah, calcium and stuff, whatnot, different deposits, right? They can also, calcium combined with the soap, right, and then make insoluble stuff. And also, 1st of all, like molecules like calcium binding with your soap and your
+
+[6:34] surfactants, your detergents, they prevent that detergent from doing the job on the dirt, right?
+
+[6:39] So they shaft you that way. And I think they can also kind of cause those things to deposit into that awful film scum stuff, right? Try sodium phosphate is, 1st of all, it's basic. It's alkaline. So automatically, it helps break up organic organic soils. Most organic soils, including stuff in dishwashing, most of the time, is broken down well by alkaline
+
+[7:00] things. Basic things, they break down proteins and fats and whatnot. So, which is why they're awesome at declogging grease in, what am I thinking about, drains? Like live with plumber, right? So they were awesome at that. They also, they're basic. They also key latency quester out calcium and other ions that shaft you. And so they're called what, there was, what's called builders in the trade. And so they do those phosphates, that phos do a number of different things that is very hard for one thing to replace it to fix. So what are they adding to it? Nowadays. They're adding sodium carbonate. So sodium carbonate, which you can make, you know, McGee uses it for pretzels sometimes. You bake the hell out of baking soda. It turns from bicarbonate to carbonate. They add this. It's extremely alkaline, right? So it does some of the stuff that the phosphates did. Problem with it is, is that's the stuff. I'm pretty sure from, you know, noodling around. That's the stuff with the new detergents, it's turning your aluminum pots and pans all black and disgusting.
+
+[7:59] So the reason why your pots, your aluminum stuff is getting destroyed in the dishwasher now is because of things like sodium carbonate.
+
+[8:06] The other thing, one of the other things they add is sodium per carbonate. And this is actually what's, I looked up what's in Cascade now, the phosphate free. Sodium per carbonate is added, and that is the main, one of the main ingredients in oxyclean, because it, when you add it to water, it, it degrades and turns into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonates. So then that also is turning your aluminum pots gray and disgusting, but it's got the oxyclean stuff, which is supposed to make up for some of the lack of bleaching and cleaning power when they took out the phosphates.
+
+[8:36] They also add sodium citrate, which, you know, we use in cooking all the time. Oh, by the way, also, the phosphates, the same reason we use them in cooking, they act as kind of emulsifying
+
+[8:47] salts, which is also good at binding the grease and causing it from redepositing. They also have to add sodium silicate, which is actually not sodium silicate. It's a specialized metasilicate that they use, along with a modified polyacrylate, which is an anti-redeposition agent. It's the same crap they use in diaper stars to make it absorb all the stuff, but that's, you know, a different form of it. Anyway, so there's a bunch of different things they're adding to it to try and get rid of the
+
+[9:12] phosphates, and they haven't totally gotten it right yet, but they are apparently working on it. But by all accounts, you know, they switch because they didn't want to make a bunch of different detergents for all over the country, but they haven't gotten
+
+[9:26] it 100% right yet. But there is there's good news and bad news. If there's a whole group of people who do not believe this stuff hurts the environment. And if you were one of those people, you can go on the, they also
+
+[9:36] had some enzymes, by the way, to break down proteins before this stuff starts, if you have a
+
+[9:39] pre-soaker, if you use cold water. Okay. Uh, you can go on Amazon and order boxes of uh, trisodium phosphate, TSP. It going to run you around $8 the pound. Uh, if you order the uh, Savogran brand. And if you order, that's Amazon Prime. There's another brand called, well, DAP. They're famous people, but they make a TSP that you can get. I think you can still buy it at Home Depot, because it's still used in pressure washing the sides of buildings prior to painting.
+
+[10:07] So what you can do is just like add a, uh, you know, add a teaspoon of that to, uh, to
+
+[10:12] the, your regular detergent and that should phosphorus up the stuff and bring back some of the old goodness of
+
+[10:17] phosphorus. Of course, you might be shafting the environment. What do you think, Stas? Who cares? Wow. Wow. Yeah, Stas is Stas is going to go out after this. I have a meeting, but she's going to go frack. She's going to go frack some stuff. Hey Dave, you have a caller on the line. All right, cool. So that's the that's the issue on detergents. Go buy the stuff if you need to. Otherwise, sit tight. They're going to make the stuff work eventually. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, everybody. Howdy. Uh, is Aaron calling from Oregon? Oh, Oregon. Where in Oregon, are you? I was up under a dishwashing thing. I used to be a dishwasher when I 1st started out in the industry. I basically had the same, well, same problem with all the aluminum pans. It's been a very
+
+[11:01] whole dishwasher, and we had the big Klingon. Make a lot of sense now. Yeah, yeah. Well, and by the way, just to go back for a 2nd. Uh, you can also buy industrial, industrial dishwashing stuff, can still have the phosphate in it, so you, so you can get it. That's a, that's a, that's a good note. And I think even the phosphate ones. They will ruin the aluminum somewhat, but it's not as badly as the new ones do. The deal is, is that the, um, the sodium carbonate and things like it, what they do is they eat away the protective oxide surface on the aluminum and then allow it to react with the water
+
+[11:32] more. So that's what's going on. So, wait, before you go, though, where in Oregon are you? Where in Oregon are you? Uh, Legaswego. Small town little South Portland. Yeah. Well, I still have not made. I was in Portland recently, but I still have not made it to Corvallis yet, which is my dream to go to Corvallis during
+
+[11:54] Barry season. But you got a question for me? I do. It's about ice cream A friend of mine owns an ice cream shop here in Portland. And we were having a discussion about making a sea salt ice cream about adding it in and folding in sea salt to get crunch of sea salt. Right. But we run into the problem of osmosis and the sea salt
+
+[12:19] itself melting into the mixed and frozen base itself. Yes, I would imagine the idea of either powdering it with
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+[12:29] multidextrin or emulsifying in some sort of fat. But we hadn't had the chance or the money or the time, basically, to test any of it out. I was wondering if you had any ideas on how something like that might
+
+[12:43] work, if it's possible at all. Well, I mean, yes, if you had enough time, I'm sure it's possible. anytime that salt is contacting a, uh, a water-based, uh, like a liquid, you're going to get, um, you're going to get salt melting,
+
+[13:03] it's just going to happen, right? So, you know, you're on the right track, you have to protect the salt with something that is insoluble
+
+[13:10] in water. So, for instance, you could chocolate coat the salt. You know what I mean? Or you could, or, you know, you don't have to use chocolate chocolate. You could use another solid fat, like cocoa butter or something like that, and coat the salt. So if you were to take like a like a panning attachment. I'm sure you could pan molding crystals with cocoa butter and then fold them into your ice cream and as long as there's no route for the water to enter. I mean it won't last forever, but it'll last a lot longer than you have now. I mean, otherwise, you're going to have to do something, you know, fairly sophisticated, like coat it with another water insoluble product,
+
+[13:48] like, for instance, cornzane. But the problem with cornzane, cornzane's a protein that's soluble in alcohol but not in water. So you would dissolve the zane in high proof ethanol,
+
+[13:58] toss the salt, and it won't dissolve the salt out. And then you let the alcohol flash off and you get a coating around the salt. I don't know how completely impermeable the zane is, but it's used as a
+
+[14:09] confectionery coating at times to prevent moisture migration, right? again, I don't know how long it's going to last. Like the 3rd choice, I mean, the 3rd choice would be, uh, you know,
+
+[14:19] you you could use uh, what's called an alpha tending emulsifier and an oil, and you mix them, and then as
+
+[14:25] they as they start drying out, they should form a film around the outside of the salt.
+
+[14:29] You're going to need some sort of moisture impermeable thing. I mean, the best, I mean, the best thing I could think of is something. So chocolate is quite thick. Cocoa butter is fairly thin when it melts. So you might be able to get a constantly churning thing of cocoa butter and get a very thin
+
+[14:43] coating. I'm not sure. You know what I mean? Or like just make it into like blocks of sugar
+
+[14:51] and uh, and I mean, sorry, salt and uh, something like like a white uh, chocolate or cocoa butter, some sort of solid fat, and then just shatter it, grind it into smaller pieces. Some of the pieces will be totally protected and others won't. You'll get some of the crunch from the chocolate pieces anyway, but inside of that, you'll get crystalline crunch. I don't know of a way of preserving individual salt crystals so they're not going to melt out, though. Does any of this make any sense? It makes amazing sense. Yes. Yeah, cool. Um, So listen, what, what, what you should do is, If you try any of this stuff, please tweet us back at cooking issues and let us know how it
+
+[15:25] worked, okay? I will. I am actually heading down to, uh, the pear orchards this summer? I hope to see you there. Oh my god. I would love to go this summer. I'm gonna try to make it happen. I was going to go to the Miami to do mangoes again this year and it turns out it's been a horrible mango crop in Miami. Are the pairs looking okay over there in Oregon? They're coming out pretty strong right now. Sweet. You want to do that, Stas? You want to go to Corvallis? She's like, she doesn't want to go. I'm gonna go. Maybe I'll get McGee to fly up, too. All right, cool. So we'll mention over the air if we're going to do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in, let us know how it works. Thank you. Enjoy the rest your day, guys. You too. Okay, so we had a question in from James last week about making raspberry and other fruit flavor gins. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe, at all. Yeah, we don't have the at all today. No, at all. know it all. know it all. know it all. Oh, know it all. It good. I like that. I enjoy the show and have gotten through the archive, so I'm up to date enough to ask a question. By the way, people. Do not feel obliged to listen to everything that we have said
+
+[16:31] before you ask a question, right? Right. Okay. I've recently tried your Agar clarified strawberry gin recipe from the cooking issues blog with a slight modification from changing from strawberries to frozen raspberries. It not being the season for fresh berries, and easier to get frozen raspberries. It turned out delicious. The end product is a bit cloudy due to my oversqueezing of the gel, but this settles out nicely on the sitting. Alongside this, I try classic infusion technique, just putting raspberries into the gin, letting it sit at an ISI raspberry gin infusion. Each technique gives a gin, which is similarly clarified, after letting the
+
+[17:07] ISI and Agar one sit to set him in out. Well, I foolishly didn't keep the Jinder raspberry ratio constant for these tests, I would imagine that I can adjust this ratio to match the color and flavor profile of each technique.
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+[17:18] Do the new techniques simply provide an improved yield, less barriers giving a stronger, better flavor and more rapid processing. So, what is a good use for the agar clarification alcohol infusion that gives a clarified product when classic infusions won't? Cheers, James. I think it's exactly right. The benefit of Agar clarification techniques is that when you do it, you know, you blend the fruit and
+
+[17:40] the, uh, and the product. And so you get, uh, you know, very fast, uh, you know, mingling of the berry and the the, the gin. So the issue is your yield is not going to be as high. So you're going to lose a product. I mean, I do it in a centrifuge. Luckily, the enzyme I use, Pectinex Ultra SPL, when I do clarification is fairly alcohol insensitive. So you can blend things directly like that with the enzyme, the enzyme breaks down, the pectins, and boom, you spin it out. I would recommend, even if you're doing regular agar clarification, go on modernist pantry.com, buy some
+
+[18:19] Pectinex ultra SPL to break down the Pectins in your slurry before you set it with
+
+[18:24] agar, you will increase your yield by 20% at least because it thins it out. Um, so, and on regular infusions, you're just sitting a long time making an
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+[18:34] occavita. It can take, you know, days, weeks, depending on how strong the infusion is. Uh, you know, but again, it's valid. I tend to, you know, what I'm doing infusions and I want them rapidly. It's either because I don't have time or because I feel that the quality of the flavor is going to change as it sits for a long, long time. Strawberry gin, for instance, when I make strawberry gin, very fresh strawberry gin,
+
+[18:55] tastes different from strawberry gin, it's been sitting around for a long time. So there is changes that take place in it as it sits. And so sometimes those changes are good, sometimes they're bad. Sometimes they're just different. So when I want very fresh flavors, I'll do ISI, or I'll
+
+[19:12] do, but if you do ISI on berries. You want on strawberries anyway. You want to slice them very thin, so you get rapid, rapid penetration. Raspberries, it's not such a big deal. Another thing you can do, if you want to uh, do uh, raspberries with more traditional technique is do a pre-treat of the raspberries with uh, pectin methylesterase, which is novo
+
+[19:33] shape. I think monitous pantry is carrying that now. That will keep the flesh intact over long maceration periods and then put a lot of the raspberries
+
+[19:42] in, and it'll even out, and then both the raspberries should be good, and the
+
+[19:47] liquor should be good. Most of the time, it's either one's good or the other's good, but not both, right? Right, man. Okay. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. This is Dave. I actually saw you at Roberta, 2 weeks ago. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I was in New York, and it was awesome. Alberta's food is great. I went in WD 50 It was amazing. Nice. So yeah, it was awesome. Uh, so yeah, I got a question about uh, induction burners. Um, so I'm about to, uh, move into, or I'm moving a coffee shop from one to the other, and the other space is a little
+
+[20:23] smaller, if you don't have a space for a gas stove. So I was thinking of getting an induction burner because mainly for, you know, making syrups and we also make a little bit of ice cream there. So, uh, just wondering, uh, if there's anything I should be looking out for other than size. Well, I mean, uh, so here's the thing on induction burners. I love them. They're great, right? You got to make sure you have the correct power, which I'm assuming you do. You have to figure out how you want your station set up. So the induction burners, if you're getting portables or movables, right? They come as singles. And I wouldn't bother getting the little the little home jobby ones. Like some people try to use those in industrial settings, but they kind of crap out on you sometimes. And a lot of times, you know, when you're doing professional stuff, you don't want them to crap out on you.
+
+[21:14] And the reason they crap out on you is because they don't have sufficient cooling circuits to run the
+
+[21:19] thing hardcore. And so if you try to overdrive them, they shut down and thermal overload, they come back, they don't die permanently, but that's kind of an irritating thing to have happen to you,
+
+[21:30] you know, when you need to get a bunch of stuff out. So, I mean, and I think that's the main difference between the relatively inexpensive home ones
+
+[21:38] are the ones that are so portable for catering that can plug into a regular 110
+
+[21:42] socket and the much bigger ones. The only of the bigger ones, you know, I've really only had experience with the with the cook tech ones, but your main choices are the following, you can either get single induction
+
+[21:54] hobs. They're obviously the most portable and they take the least electricity, but they only take
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+[21:58] one pot at a time. The other thing is you can get duels. Now, the choice in duels is this. They have front back duels and they have side side duels, right? So the advantage of a front back duel is that you can
+
+[22:14] get you can get one and then you can get another one, stick it right next to it, and now you have like a 4 burner range, and then you can get another one, stick it right next to it, and now you have 6 burners, and they're all controlled from the front, right? Which is, it seems to me to be a pretty big advantage. Uh, but, you know, the guys at Sambar had one and they were having some problems with it. I don't know whether there's a problem with that unit in particular, but the concept to me is very appealing because it allows you to make a choice now and not be shafted for later. Although nobody wants to cook front back if you only have two. Do you know what I'm saying? If you only have two, you definitely want to cook side side. But if you know you're eventually going to gang up 4 or 6 of them, then I'm pretty sure you want to go front back. Um, The other thing is, is that even, you know, five, six, 7 years ago when people were buying commercial induction units, they always broke, always
+
+[23:03] broke. And the braking features were 2 reasons. One, a cook would put a pot down, very heavy on the glass surface and shatter it. I saw more than 5 broken that way. And then, uh, the other problem was, is that everyone wanted the holy grail of Range Over
+
+[23:18] oven. And if you do range over oven, especially with the electronics, the way they had them, you know, years ago, they always burned out. It was like inevitable. So, you know, but it doesn't sound like you're going to have that problem because you're not going hot over. you're not you're not going hot over hot. So you're not going to have probably cooling issues. You want to make sure that those suckers stay ventilated. So it's going to be a choice for you of what kind of configuration you want. You know what I mean? Right, right. I mean, I would, I would, I would, don't pay it too much attention to, I mean, get like a powerful one, but remember that
+
+[23:50] wattage in an induction unit is not comparable to wattage in an electrical, uh, you know, a resistance, uh, heated, uh, uh, range top. It's completely non-comparable because the efficiencies are, you know, vastly different between the two. Uh, so, you know, a much smaller watt edge is going to give you in an induction unit. It's going to give you the same output that you're going to get in terms of like the actual heat in the pan as
+
+[24:17] uh, as the, you know, the regular old coil units. And also you can't make a good conversion between BTUs and a gas range and watts into
+
+[24:27] the uh, into the induction. You know, I've had, you know, I've done races even with the crappy induction versus, you know, fairly good
+
+[24:35] gas and the induction most of the time is going to win because it's directly heating the pan. You get a first. I mean, you're going to pay more on electricity, no doubt. But you are going to have less ventilation requirement and it's going to take less HVAC load to cool your kitchen down. should you cool your kitchen down, which you probably will if, you know, probably will somewhat. So you can you can win on those. The only ones I really have experience with, though, on the commercial side are the cook techs, and I think they work fine. But, you know, I don't have a lot of experience with the with the other brands. Is there like a ballpark of like water I should be looking out for? Well, I'm trying to, well, get as high as you can,
+
+[25:19] right? Uh, I mean, you know, they they should be, you know, the ones that run on 220, you should be able to get a couple kilowatts into
+
+[25:26] them. no problem, right? So the ones that you plug into a regular socket are limited to about 1500 watts. That's about the limit that someone's going to want to suck out of a wall socket. So a 15 with one. 5 kilowatt. So a one. 5 kilowatt induction burner that, you know, the standard kind of crappy home models, they work fairly well. They're not as good as an industrial, you know, range, like a jade or one of those things, but they're pretty good. They're pretty damn good. But then, so if you go to the next jump up, like a 3 kilowatt burner, I think they make three. Uh, but look at what they, like the most you're going to suck out of a regular 110 is about one. 5 kilowatts. So above that, you're looking at gravy. I haven't looked at the specs recently because I haven't bought one, but if they have like a 2 kilowatt or 3 kilowatt, you're probably looking at, you know, mucho
+
+[26:14] power into the pan. And I know they make wok burner units that are like 4 and 5
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+[26:19] kilowatts and those suckers are nuts because they're nuts. They're insane. Cool. Anyway. All right, cool. Well, let us let us know how it works out. If you have any more questions, give us a call back. Okay, great. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. You guys want to go to the 1st break? Coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[26:52] Once again, that this is the meatballers, fans and listeners of cooking issues, and the song is called Fish
+
+[27:01] Is Fish Is Vodka.
+
+[27:22] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of Chefsteps.com. We've just launched our free short course on verification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid, a culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.
+
+[27:44] Our free course offers helpful step-by-step demonstrations are reverse, frozen reverse, and direct verification. We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends.
+
+[28:01] And, as always at chef steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your
+
+[28:10] questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like.
+
+[28:25] sign up now at chefsteps.com. So, yeah, Jack? Yep. Well, I was just I was just excited because I'm also a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues. I'm glad the guys at Chef Steps are too. You know who else is a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking his shoes? Everybody at Heritage Radio. Yeah. Like you said, we had our big 1st all staff, all host meeting, kind of awesome to get everybody in the same room. A lot of people, a lot of the founding hosts, the early hosts in the same room, same time. We just debuted the
+
+[28:53] summer of food today, which is a student submission program where people are giving us travel logs and recordings and musings from their summer of food, which includes coverage on issues of farming,
+
+[29:05] sustainability and all sorts of things. So that's really fun. We're opening up a whole new post-production division of the network, lots and lots of new stuff, and I would highly, highly recommend every listener of cooking
+
+[29:17] issues, go to our website, click on evolutionaries, and there's an episode of Harold McGee, where he tells his whole life story, really, in a very tightly
+
+[29:27] edited post-produced way. I think it's very fascinating for all fans of modernist cooking. When's that going up? It's up. It has debuted, so it's there for your listening pleasure archived. The evolutionary series on Heritage Radio Network. It's right there on the homepage. And you have a bunch more that are coming out over the summer, yeah? Tons, yeah. Wiley as well. Yeah, we edited his. Who knew he was such a competitor sports guy? He likes he likes the sports. He does. He does. He's damaged like his, you know, some part of his arm, so he has to get it fixed, I
+
+[29:58] think, from like, you know, repetitive, not from punching his cooks, apparently, but from cooking. I think he damaged his, I don't think it was in sports. I think it was in cooking, he did. I think he just always wanted a sports injury, then, you know, had to make it happen through cooking. full contact cooking. Yeah. Nice. McGee's story is really great too. Everyone check it out. Indian food. Grew up eating Indian food. Wait, no, McGee, half Indian. Also, McGee, sports guy, but not like, you know, he's like a runner has been for a long time. Man runs all the damn time. Did you know that? Did he mention that on the program? You have to listen and find out. Yeah, I'll tell you something. I hate running. No offense, but like, I hate running. Like, it's just, I hate it. Like, you know how Stas, do you like running? You know how people, like, they say they get this endorphin rush from running, that they like it, and then they like to keep running? I've never felt that in my life. You guys, anyone? Yeah, no way. Joe. No, I used to I used to run track, but it was never fun. No, no, it's not fun. Running around, not fun. Uh, although, uh, uh, Dax, of, of my kids, booker and Dax, not the bar, just got picked for the track team. Nice. Nice. little mini track. Okay. Rolf writes in. Dear, Miss Hammer and Nails. So I guess I'm the nail getting hit on the head by, I guess all of us are. There's nails. So Jack and Joe also getting hit on the head with the hammer. Uh, Mastasia, by the way, just, uh, just during the commercial break, totally busted me because I was, remember last week I said that
+
+[31:23] like I was going to go to jail because we couldn't find out what my court date was for my bicycle ticket. I was like, I gave it to you. Where the hell is it? And she's like, you didn't give it to me. You took it back, and we had a big argument, and I looked at my wallet. guess what? It was there in my wallet right around. Right. So now she's going to, now she's going to be, uh, she's going to be moody all day as a
+
+[31:40] result, all, all, uh, I just don't like how angry you get. How angry can what? What? Do I get angry? Jack and Joe, do I get angry? I guess I do. But I don't, it's not, it's like, you know, it's not serious anger, right? Cartoon anger. Yeah, cartoon anger. Thats me. why no one takes me seriously. Okay, Rolf Wright's in. Dear Miss Hammer and Nails. Following on Tom Fisher's questions about his kissing coon recon pressure cooker. I can add that mine, Circa 2009 has always done the same thing. Bought it while living in France, and the customer service there isn't such that it was worth
+
+[32:12] suffering, suffering the follow-up, a follow-up on it that I would have to do to get it fixed. So I just got used to it. For what it's worth, it's not the secondary slash higher pressure valve, which is the one on the side. But the pressure indicator valve itself. I've taken it apart, cleaned it. It hit on 1st use, so it wasn't food contamination. Tried to adjust the tightness of the bolt in the bottom of the pressure indicator. Used to be I could quiet temporarily by turning it while it hissed, as though either the hole or the valve weren't quite round, but no longer. Hope that's useful in your data collecting. Rolf. It is useful, actually. And I've heard, uh, you know, mine is Circa a long, long time ago, but I heard that Coon Recon was having
+
+[32:51] some uh, issues with uh, QC, that's quality control. Uh, having some issues with uh, QC for a while, but that they had it fixed. I mean, I'd like to know how many people have this problem with Coon Recon is because one of my favorite things about it is that it doesn't leak. I mean, it's still going to leak a lot less than, you know, some of the other
+
+[33:08] brands, uh, like uh, Fagor that, you know, leak by design. But anyway, yeah, I do want that for my research. Okay, Colin Gore. Haven't heard from Colin Gor in a while, huh? True. True. Writes in about apples. Palm nerds. he calls us. Yes, we got some good salutations today, right? Dear Palm nerds, my British girlfriend has been looking for Bramley apples in the United States. They're big tart baking apples that it seems can only reproduce by having a threesome. Super kinky triploid action. Uh, the, the referring to the uh, number of sets of chromosomes. So we are diploid. We have 2 sets of chromosomes. You know, there's when you have more than that, it's called polyploidy, right? So, you know, more than, and so the, but the problem is, is that, um, usually it's an even number, in order to, in order for the things not to be
+
+[34:00] sterile. So 3 sets, triploid means that usually if you're triploid, you're, you know, 3 sets of chromosomes, you are sterile. Anyway, uh, you know, not you, you, the fruit tree, not you, the person. Uh, because I don't think that doesn't work for us. Anyway, okay. I recall Brockdale Farm is a massive fruit repository in the UK, but I think you mentioned the
+
+[34:20] U.S. having a living library of apples as well. Uh, where is that? And have you cooked with Bramley's? What makes them so interesting to the Brits and what other weird fruit sex can you share? Okay. So, the issue, uh, 1st of all, the, um, the places in Geneva, New York, it's, I don't forget how far it is, maybe like 4 or 5 hours from uh, New York City, and it's the Geneva, uh, Apple
+
+[34:48] Extension. It an extension of Cornell, but the Apple repository is run by the United States government. It's like Noah's Ark for Apples, and they don't really, like a lot of the people there don't really, some of the people care about the actual apples, but the theory is, is that if some new disease comes in, people don't think about
+
+[35:03] it. If you don't think about trees a lot, but a lot of our major trees over the past 100 years have been wiped out by introduced pathogens and new tree pathogens.
+
+[35:13] So, you know, Dutch elm, disease, wiped out the, you know, the majority of our elms, which were kind of the preeminent street tree. Um, we had our chestnuts wiped out by chestnut light. They were like one of the primary, you know, trees of the eastern forest. You know, they were like from sheer number standpoint, were one of the largest numbers, almost completely wiped out.
+
+[35:36] Now only young saplings grow from the dead stumps. We have butternut canker, killing our butternut trees. Uh, there's just like, we have, we have a fungus that infects uh, beech trees, another important, you know, US
+
+[35:48] tree. So you get a thing called beach snap. We have introduced things that are killing off our hemlocks, you
+
+[35:54] know, our great conifers. So there's a we have a long, well, I should say long, couple 100 year history of having some of our major and important tree species getting wiped out by introduced
+
+[36:06] pathogens. So what they're worried about is that some pathogen's going to come in and attack all of our commercial cultivars and wipe them out.
+
+[36:16] So what they do is they have 1000s of varieties of different apples sitting there
+
+[36:19] and, uh, and, you know, that way they can figure out which ones are resistant to whatever new pathogen comes in and then they can create new
+
+[36:27] apples from those. That's why they keep them. And they still haven't successfully ensured that keeping just the, uh, the clonal, the, the, you can't keep Apple seeds because apples don't grow true to seed, but they can keep, they keep the wood frozen in liquid
+
+[36:40] nitrogen. But, um, some people say that keeping the wood like that so that they can make new grass of it frozen in liquid nitrogen isn't so good because uh, it can cause uh,
+
+[36:51] sports so it can change slightly from the parent tree. So people still say you have to grow all the trees. Anyway, that's why it's there. It's a fantastic place to visit. Okay, now back to Bramley's. So here's the thing. I've not cooked with Bramley's, because I've never really done, I haven't had a kitchen in the
+
+[37:06] UK and they don't really, you know, doomed so much over there. I mean, the Brits, I think they just, they just like them a lot. The 1st, you know, Bramley comes from the UK and was discovered around
+
+[37:19] 1809. It's called Bramley Seedling. And what that means is that it was discovered as a seedling. It wasn't a sport or anything like that. Because what it used to do is you'd spray apple seeds around, like, you know, 20 trees would come up, maybe one of them was
+
+[37:34] good because apples, as I say, don't come true to seed. Okay. So the interesting thing about Bramley's triploid thing is that you need 2 other kinds of apple trees near
+
+[37:44] it to have it work right. And here's why. Uh, so triploid trees don't produce uh, pollen, all right? First of all, apple trees don't like to self fertilize usually, which means you need at least 2 different apple trees near each other to get a good crop of apples, right?
+
+[38:01] Triploid trees have 22 separate things in general, right? according to, I don't think it keeps a curtain anymore, but I'm no one to talk, the fruitblog.blogspot.com. Triploid fruits tend to be larger, which is why a lot of people like them, but the trees tend to produce fewer flowers, right? And they don't typically produce pollen. Now, remember, the apple trees can't pollinate themselves. So you need normally you need 2 different kinds of apple trees, right? One will pollinate the other. You don't really care what the seeds on the inside of the apples are because you're not going to grow from the seed anyway. Anytime you're going to reproduce the Apple, you're going to do it by grafting. Okay. Here's the thing. So you got these 2 apple trees. Now, the Bramways is just sitting there doing nothing, doing squat. So you have to wait for the other tree to pollinate it, right? Now here's the other thing. If you want that tree to also produce apples. You need a 3rd tree out there to give pollen to that tree because the
+
+[38:55] Bramleys is shooting blanks, right? Okay. Uh, so so that's it. So some other triploid trees out there. Apples are Ashmead's kernel, which is my favorite, uh, kernel of
+
+[39:05] national word for seed. My favorite all time, drink apple, John of Gold's, Mutsu Crispins, and Gravinstein. So there's a lot of triple light stuff out there. Now, the other question is, uh, what is, uh,
+
+[39:18] so what other weird kind of fruit sex is there? Wait, I got a call her? All right, so weird fruit sex after the call. Call her, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Oh, hey, I have a question about doing chicken. So I end up doing a lot of catering, and I, pretty unhappy with just the way that chicken turns out, in large quantities, being able to reheat it, um, for catering
+
+[39:46] setup, and I was just wondering if you had kind of any ideas about how, how
+
+[39:52] I could do something that would be delicious, and at the same time, you know, somewhat easy to pull off in
+
+[39:59] a, kind of catering situation. Sure, how many, how many people on average are we talking? Uh, let's just say like 125? Okay. And what kind of, uh, you're talking like a main course chicken, so hot? Yeah, main course hot. And what kind of finishing stuff do you usually have with you? Um, with, with that? Well, I have a circulator, I have, and a bunch of other stuff I can bring with me, but generally we just use a grill or sometimes we have ovens or like fryers or stuff like
+
+[40:28] that, but my preference is a grill. Right. Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, the, so the issue with chicken, right? Specifically chicken, and specifically main dish hot prep chicken, is that, um, in order to crisp the skin out nicely, you need to cook the chicken
+
+[40:48] for, uh, a lot. Chicken skin has to dry out and render and crisp. That's why other than deep frying, super fast techniques tend to produce a less than awesome surface on the exterior of the chicken,
+
+[41:01] right? And the breast meat is just tends to get way overcooked. Right, right. Now, if you can, now, so that, I would, I would circulate the chicken, uh, before, I would bone
+
+[41:14] it unless you need to serve it on the bone because if you circulate chicken with the bone on it, you can tend to get a lot of pinking and red around it, which doesn't go
+
+[41:21] away, and catering, that's like death, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the, I've gone through the circulating the chicken before so many times. And I mean, I'm not against deboning it, but I mean, I prefer the thighs and I would prefer not to debone thigh, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, maybe I could just keep on the breast or something, but. Yeah, I mean, the issue is especially on thighs with that little short bone, so much red in that
+
+[41:45] bone that the thigh, the thighs really turn pink. If you, anytime you do a low temp, like, to me, the easiest way to get around the problem
+
+[41:53] of cooking a bunch of stuff off at the last minute and having is to do low temp, but low temp on thigh, you're asking for a complete world of hurt if you
+
+[42:03] don't. You know, the other thing you could do is you could, if you nitrate them, the whole thing will be pinked and
+
+[42:09] will look cured. You know what I mean? And then people don't mind the pink so much. But people freak out on chickens like for that. People just don't want to see the red, the red chicken. I mean, the advantage of boning, right? The disadvantage, obviously, is the freaking work, right? The advantage of the boning is you can then use the bone scraps to make stocks and gravies without having to get anything
+
+[42:32] extra. People do like eating the thigh, the thigh meat boneless. I mean, what we used to do when we're doing large-scale chicken for hot prep is we would bone out the whole chicken and then roll it like in the skin. We would do the thighs and drums on the, you
+
+[42:52] know, cut open, glued to the skin, and then breast meat in the center rolled. And then we would poach those off at, you know, in the circulator at like 63, 64. That cooks the breast meat in the middle and almost cooks the other meat all the way through. You can let it ride at like 57, pull it, and then throw it on the grill to crisp off the skin and take that thigh meat up a couple of extra degrees to cook it out.
+
+[43:18] And that, everyone always ends up liking that preparation because everyone gets a little bit of white, everyone gets a little bit of dark and it's boneless, but it is a lot of work beforehand. The good news is that it's beforehand. So it's not work on site. If you want if you want to cook the thighs boneless, you're going to have to go to a much higher temperature or just cook it much faster.
+
+[43:40] I haven't done a lot of experiments. My guess is that if you cooked it at 66 and you kept the layer fairly thin or 67 that you would be able to get rid of some of the pinking as long as you cooked it relatively quickly at those temperatures, like in a, you know, in a combi with it going or something like
+
+[43:57] that. But I haven't done a lot. I haven't had any success with bone in thighs done low temperature. And what is the is the issue when you do low temperature, the red, is that coming from? I mean, when you circulate it, the bag? Is it is a marrow coming out of the bone or is it more just
+
+[44:15] a time after cooking for a long time, it turns pink? I don't know. It's both. It's both. So what happens is, is when you suck a vacuum on a piece of chicken to put it in a bag. You know, if you're not using zippies, that vacuum will cause stuff to come out of the bone, which, you know, and all the vessels around
+
+[44:34] there, and that will put a lot of the pink and the meat around the bone. And also, the bone is going to act as an insulator. I mean, the same thing that makes it good in doing traditional cooking. It insulates the meat so it doesn't overcook, right? is bad in low temperature cooking because it's slower. So it kind of protects that. And then, you know, the, the redness, the, how much of the red is denatured is dependent upon the rate of denaturation. So in in cooking that takes longer period of time to heat through up to cooking temperatures, you're going to have more red, then you would in a situation where those temperatures are achieved quickly.
+
+[45:11] So it's kind of you're doubly shafted by it. Um, I mean, it can be done, but like you're going to want to either use Ziploc bags or very low vacuums and you're going to want to push the temperatures a little bit higher than you would otherwise want to push them.
+
+[45:24] So what you could do is you could do your breasts at 63 to 65. I've never done this, but then try to do the legs at like 67 to 68 and see whether or not they're still juicy up at those at those temperatures and maybe those temperatures are high enough to wipe out the
+
+[45:40] pink even with the bones in, but if you suck a hard vacuum, you're never going to get rid of the pink. Yeah, yeah. I've run into that a couple of times now. Right. Okay, that's helpful. Yeah, I guess keep donating is probably my best option. It is a pain in the butt, but you do get lots of delicious gravy. you. All right, good luck. Bye bye. Uh, so back to weird uh, weird fruit sex. So, seedless fruits, by the way, are one of either 2 situations happen, right? Either, uh, you have a situation back where, where, you know, the uh, the tree is actually pollinated, but no seeds form. I call that the shooting blanks method, right? That's called, actually, uh, steno spermocarpie. Uh, right? And that's how sealess grapes work and things like that. The other one is, this style is going to like this one, Parthenocarpie, which means virgin
+
+[46:33] fruit, version fruit. And that's how things like bananas and certain figs work because they don't need to be pollinated for the fruit to form, which is weird, right? So like bananas back in the day before they were like, you know, awesome food things have like lots of seeds in
+
+[46:48] them and they're fundamentally inedible until they found these ones that had Parthenocarpie.
+
+[46:52] So, and there are certain figs that are also parthenocarpic. don't need any sort of pollination, but stars, you know how things are like the old school figs. You know how they're done, right? Here's some weird fruit sex for you. Wasps go into, there's a male fig tree and a female fig tree, right? They're not on the same tree. And they, uh, male ones have the, they're called capri figs, male trees, and they have this thing called a
+
+[47:15] synconia, I think. synconia, synconia, anyone. And male, the wasps, not males. The wasps go into the fig, right? And they lay their eggs in the fig, right? And then the wasps are born and they eat their way out of the fig, right? And they fly to a female tree, go into the fig, and try to, they can't get back out again, lay their eggs in, uh, No, sorry. die in there. When they die, they don't lay their eggs, I guess. They don't lay theirs. They die in there, but they pollinate it while they do. And the fig dissolves the wasp on the inside, so there's no wasp left. That's kind of bizarre fruit sex, huh? We got another color? Color, you're on the air. More fruit sex after the call. Hey, it's Brian in San Francisco. How it going? Doing all right. How you doing? Good. So, I dehydrated my apricots, and I wanted to let you know that it is side by side with uh, with dyscorbic acid um, on one tray of apricots, and then I did
+
+[48:09] the um, uh, potassium metabisulfate um, for the other tray, and far and away, the potassium
+
+[48:15] metabisulfate one. Yeah. Was there any off labor from the sulfur? I guess not, right? I did not hate spinning off flavor, but in the bath, I could definitely smell, you know, that rotten
+
+[48:26] egg, uh, sulfur, sulfur smell. Right. it should volatilize anyway while it's dehydrating. But I should also say that the ascorbic acid that the apricots ended up tasting sour. Really? somewhat from that escorbic acid that was was on the surface. Also, I should say that, um, I did get some browning on, on
+
+[48:48] the potassium amount of myself. It's not foolproof. I used half a percent, um, by weight. And, um, uh, you know, I still got. I still got some, so maybe I need to, to, to increase that. I mean, the one, I was read, did some reading that, um, they use a kind of, um, a
+
+[49:06] smoke box where they smoke some kind of sulfur, um, uh, dioxide. I guess it is into the into the box, um, when they do it commercially, which is how, um,
+
+[49:17] uh, how they make sure that, uh, there's no, there's no browning at all. Right. Well, some, yeah, because it hits everything. Some people burn the software. Some commercial people do use the dip, but they use a much heavier duty dip than
+
+[49:30] the sulfite people for home dehydration recommend. But, you know, it's the same procedure they use to bleach palm fronds, you know, palm things for making Panama
+
+[49:42] hats. They bleach them with sulfur. They burn sulfur underneath the uh, underneath the palm leaves so that they can bleach them out for making uh, Panama hats. So yeah, that's an old school, that's an old school technique. How is your wife with the sulfur? Any problems? Chasing tritum yet. But I think it should be fine because she did, she does okay with with most wine, with wine. So, um, it's just the asthma piece, which was in question. Right. Well, you know, having an inhaler nearby, she, does she, uh, she uses you. Yeah, have an inhaler nearby. I mean, if she has most wines without a problem, I, you know, you're not going to probably get a, uh, I mean, yeah, or at least not one that's uh,
+
+[50:24] life-threatening. Yeah, but it was nice to do the side by side. I said, no, I have a clearer sense of it. Cool, tweet a tweet a picture over at cooking issue, so I can take a look at it if you can. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to do that with my with my dumb phone. But I have another question here, um, which is, um, I, I need a foolproof recipe for mayonnaise because I tried the immersion blender technique that I found on the Sirius
+
+[50:48] Heats website and I tried, and it, and it, and I couldn't save it, and then I, I, um, I tried
+
+[50:53] McEase. I looked into his uh, he's a good cooking. He says, add another yoke if it breaks, and I added that and I couldn't, and I, and I tried it with a whisk also as well. So, I, I need some, some advice on, on, um, ratios and
+
+[51:08] techniques. Right. Well, did you hear the, did you hear the episode where we, uh, the one with, uh, Chris Young on
+
+[51:14] it where like my feeling is, is that the main problem is when you're doing the series
+
+[51:18] each technique of using the immersion blender without, you know, without any sort of pre-mixing is the, uh, is the size of the vessel. So if you did you did you hear that one? So if you're making the... Yeah, so like the trick is, okay, so I've been contradicted by a couple of listeners who have, you know, written in and said that
+
+[51:37] they can make it normally in a large vessel like a quart container. But I was running some side by side tests using the immersion blender to make the mayonnaise in the immersion blender cup, which is roughly the same diameter as the bell of the immersion blender.
+
+[51:52] And when you do that, you know, the egg yolk sinks to the bottom, it like makes an emulsion and then builds very quickly and easily, right? Or, and then I tried doing it in a quart container and it failed miserably. Miserably. Ah, miserably. And, and I, and just like you said, I tried to fix it, miserable. Just awful. So when you're making it in large vessels, I mean, like when I do it in large vessels, I take a whisk, I break the egg yolk, I hit it, I hit it with mustard vinegar, hit
+
+[52:23] it, and then very, very slowly drizzle in the 1st bit of oil while I furiously mix with my hands until you see a stable emulsion forming.
+
+[52:31] Then. Yeah, he's a whisk. Yeah, but then, but like, but not anymore. Now, you know, I use for small quantities, I do the immersion blender thing. Once you form an emulsion, then you can kind of go ape, you know what I mean? Then all of a sudden nothing matters anymore. The hard part about mayonnaise is the very beginning part, getting that initial stable thing going. So my feeling is, is that if you're doing the court container situation, although some people say they do it in a core container, it works. But if you're doing it in a core container, at least with one egg yolk, I was unsuccessful because it mixed the egg yolk and the oil together before it had formed any kind of stable emulsion.
+
+[53:07] And so then you're just hosed. Now, the other thing is, is that, uh, you know, you want to, you want to make roughly 80% oil 20% water, uh, base stuff. That's how it works. And McGee and I used to do, you know, as part of the, Curious Cook was his 2nd book, which you
+
+[53:26] guys should all go on A, B, E, or on book find or whatever and buy a copy of it. But, you know, he goes through there, the experiment that you can actually make, you know, many quarts of mayonnaise out of one egg yolk.
+
+[53:38] So we used to do that and we would do it with a whisk. We would get one egg yolk. We would we would hit it with a whisk, and we would start make it, and then we would just make gallons of mayonnaise with the one with the one egg yolk,
+
+[53:48] right? But you have to keep adding water to it, right? Because if you get too much oil in, the emotional break and then you're shafted, right? So you want to try to stay, but the other hand is if you don't add enough oil, it's thin. So adding the oil up to around 75, 70, to 80%, 80%. Right when you get there is when it gets that thick mayonnaise consistency. Anything less and it's going to be thin, anything too much more, and the mayonnaise is going to break. But you can always add some liquid back in, thin it down, and then build it back with more oil. Okay, uh, I got the ratios. Do I need to refrigerate it? Because I don't understand how white Japanese mayonnaise is not ever in the fridge. Well, same with New Orleans mayonnaise. Uh, you know, they they guys in New Orleans keep their mayonnaise out all the time. The issue usually when you're making mayonnaise, you add acid to the egg yolk portion of
+
+[54:41] it. And over time, the very low water activity combine with the acid will kill whatever ails you in the mayonnaise, at least so they say, but the issue the issue is that mayonnaise right out of the gate is not safe.
+
+[54:53] The Japanese guys, Kupi, they might actually also dope it with something to kill anything in it. But my impression from what I've read is that mayonnaise properly made mayonnaise with an acidifier in it gets safer over
+
+[55:05] time, not less safe over time. So how long do you think it'll keep? Oh, a long time. You know, my grandma used to, my grandma would throw away any sandwich with mayonnaise on it that was out for more than like 20 seconds.
+
+[55:19] She would be like, oh, mayonnaise is out in the shoot throw it out, but, you know, I don't have any solid numbers for you, but a while. But I would make it in small quantities anyway, though. You know what I mean? Make it in small corners anyway. Got it, got it, got it. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to try this technique and make sure you get my ratios right. Can I ask you another question? Is there time? Sure. Okay. Um, my, my, I'm, I make, I make, and I make also a bread starter, but the problem with having them out all the time is that I
+
+[55:51] got to keep feeding them. Um, so I put it in the fridge to slow the, um, slow down the reactions for, for, for both
+
+[55:58] them and I understand they're, they're, they're separate. But my question is, is there a different kind of acid that is released at that temperature for the fermentation than it would be at room temperature, meaning I, I think I read something that, there's more, more elactic acid, or that room camp, and more, um, uh, some kind of, uh, a, a different kind of acid,
+
+[56:20] maybe a, uh, acorbic or something, or something. And so I'm wondering if, if that's in, in a, That's a consideration, or I need to bring it to room temp 1st when I use it and just kind of store it,
+
+[56:32] um, when I'm not using it in the fridge, uh, thought? Right. Well, here's the deal. So, uh, anytime you change the, either
+
+[56:40] what uh, something is growing on, what the starter medium is, or anytime you change the growing conditions, meaning the temperature at which it's stored, or I guess even really the humidity at which it's stored, you're going to shift which
+
+[56:52] bacteria and which yeast are growing properly in that starter, right? So if you look at any sort of actual fermentation, it's not one specific thing that is growing over the length of the
+
+[57:04] fermentation. Different organisms take over at different stages, depending on what the pH is, and depending on what the temperature is, et cetera, et
+
+[57:11] cetera. depending on how much oxygen's dissolved. So, the trick is, is if you want a consistent starter, you just have to do everything consistently.
+
+[57:19] So yes, storing it in the fridge will change the culture, right? Uh, somewhat. But when you use it, as long as you use it the same way every time and store it the same way every time, eventually you'll achieve some sort of consistency, you hope. Another thing you can do, if you want to store it, and it also changes the consistency, is a lot of people store their starters
+
+[57:37] of very much more stiff than you would ordinarily form a
+
+[57:41] starter, and that slows down all the rates of reactions. Another thing people do. This dope it with more with more solids, more flour. Okay, got it. All right, thanks so much. Have a good week. You too. All right. Now, on our way out. I didn't get to talk about salt risen bread this time or hickory nuts. get that to that next time. I hope. But one last fruit sex. My favorite fruit sex of all is vanilla. So vanilla, vanilla, the being, the orchid, right? Vanilla is from Mexico. And in Mexico, it's pollinated by a special bee that only grows in Mexico. And when they tried to take vanilla out of the Mexico, they could not get it to reliably produce because it will not pollinate itself. It turns out that vanilla orchids have a chastity belt on them. And vanilla orchid, it's called the arrestellum. And the deal is, is that vanilla orchids don't want to pollinate themselves. They want to prevent self-pollination because they don't like vanilla orchids don't appreciate incest, right? Now, so no one could figure out what the hell is going on. No one could get vanilla to produce. On the island of, I guess in French is, you know, but it's reunion in the US language here, right? Which is off the coast of Madagascar. In 1841, a slave named Edmund Albius, figured out how to, how to, what's a polite word to say it, how to sex up the orchid by remove it by taking the orchid, flipping open the chastity belt and taking with a little blade of grass and taking his thumb and rubbing the male private parts and the female private parts with his
+
+[59:12] finger and force ancestrally pollinate the vanilla beans and
+
+[59:17] single-handedly. This slave, uh, invented the uh, vanilla
+
+[59:23] trade that coming out of reunion
+
+[59:28] single-handedly. Now, he was a slave. So he got almost no credit at all, right? They outlawed slavery soon thereafter in the late 1840s, France did, right? And he just kind of was like left to fend for himself. No money, no nothing. And he actually got sent, he stole some jewelry because he, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. This guy literally was the foundation of this of what was one of the biggest industries over there. They finally let him out, the Glenwood cremacy, because they're like, yeah, I guess you did, you know, you did give us all our livelihood.
+
+[59:57] So they let him out, but he died in poverty in 1880. So it turns out that, uh, sexing an orchid doesn't necessarily lead to wealth and fame. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:00:14] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:45] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of chefsteps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushway, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:38] Cooking issues.
+
+[1:04] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello, and welcome to cooking issues coming to you live from the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio
+
+[1:16] Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one. Call to questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All your questions. Cooking, tech cooking, non-cooking, questions about
+
+[1:31] nastasia, maybe. Who knows? All welcome. Join in the studio as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and Joe is all alone in the booth today. So lonely. Jack just got back from Bonaroo, so he's taking it easy. I'm sure he has a lot to recover from. Yeah, yeah. All right. We'll hear from it maybe next week. Maybe Jack will call in if he's listening. Yeah? Yeah, what are the odds? Okay. Got some questions. Oh, by the way, amazing stuff before we get into the questions. The museum of food and drink. MoFed did its inaugural explosion of the puffing gun on Sunday.
+
+[2:07] We did a test puff because our graphics team, Labor, Ryan and
+
+[2:12] Wyath, amazing fellows, are filming a Kickstarter campaign for us because we are going to
+
+[2:17] Kickstarter the this late summer's exhibit of the puffing on. For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, back in the day, starting in the, I guess, just around the turn of the last century, around 1900, they developed a technique for puffing grains where you seal the grain in
+
+[2:37] a sealed kind of gun, and you heat it, and as you heat it in a sealed container, the pressure increases dramatically, but the liquid can't boil off because it's sealed inside of a container, like a pressure
+
+[2:50] cooker. But instead of going up to 15 PSI, like a pressure cooker, it goes up to like 180 PSI. 200 psi. Then you release the pressure all of a sudden and boom. All of the grain instantly puffs as all of the water instantly vaporizes off. And there are various machines that are used for this nowadays that are small, but the museum wanted to get one that was actually
+
+[3:10] used, designed by Kellogg, and is still made by the Puritan Manufacturing Corporation in Omaha, Nebraska. So we got one of these large machines. It takes, I think, £18 of grain at a time or £18 or £20 of grain. 7 feet long, big machine. Uh, and uh, we fired it for the 1st time on Sunday and didn't really have an idea, kind of
+
+[3:31] how uh, kind of much of a poof there was going to be coming out of it, but uh, Nastasia unfortunately had to miss it, but I will just say that uh, everyone involved had chunks of rice stuck in uh, in their hair, their rice was sprayed all over
+
+[3:47] heritage uh, all over the heritage headquarters, like just everywhere. It was just amazing. Like, let me just say, 1st of all, you should find the Kickstarter when it comes up. And 2nd of all, no one is going to be disappointed when they come visit the puffing gun in outdoor venues in New York
+
+[4:03] City later this fall. later this summer. It's just a crazy piece of equipment and super duper fun. Uh, and uh, we have a picture actually, follow Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink. They now have their Twitter up at MoFad on Twitter, and you can see a picture of the inaugural puff. inaugural puff. pretty amazing picture, right, Stuff? I mean, like, you can't believe it, like, stuff flying everywhere. It's like, it's like, you know, Star Wars, like, you know, the Millennium Falcon going into hyperspace. That photo looks kind of like that. Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, questions in. Alvin Schultz writes in. Carbonation question. How do you control the bubble size in different cocktails? Topuchico versus champagne? Is it a question of PSI? Tapachico, by the way, is a Mexican mineral water. Uh, right? I think so. You drink that stuff in LA? I was like, hell no. Hell no. Remember, half Mexican, so she's allowed to be racist against her own kind. I guess, I guess. Not really. It's not really cool. Right? All right. So, uh, anyway, so I don't really, uh, I've had it, uh, but I don't remember
+
+[5:06] the the bubble kind of uh, quality of uh, Tobo Chico. Champagne is known, obviously, for, you know, the finer the champagne, the smaller, the bubble size. However, it's fairly simple in this respect, the bubble size of any given drink is directly related to the pressure of CO2 that you put into it and the
+
+[5:26] temperature, which you serve it. So basically how fast CO2 is leaving. So the more pressure you carbonate to, the bigger the bubbles are going to
+
+[5:33] be, for a given liquid. The colder you serve it, or the warmer you serve it, rather, the larger the bubbles are going to be for a given liquid, because CO2 is going to be leaving it faster. Okay. So if you want smaller bubbles, you carbonate to a lower
+
+[5:47] PSI, downside is it also doesn't taste as carbonated, right? You know, and if you want larger bubbles, just carbonate to a higher PSI, downside, sometimes you can get overcarbonated. Now, uh, now, remember I said for a particular liquid. So, uh, whatever the alcohol content is is going to increase, uh, is going to affect both the bubble size and how carbonated it tastes.
+
+[6:09] The higher the alcohol content for given pressure, the less carbonated it's going to taste, and the smaller the bubbles are going to be. For also, what is in the drink besides alcohol can vastly affect the bubble size.
+
+[6:21] So in Champagne, that's actually done method champinoise, the product sits during a secondary fermentation on its lees, and those, the yeast products break down over
+
+[6:30] time and create, the liquid actually becomes such that the bubbles are
+
+[6:37] smaller. So the bubble size will be smaller for champagne that is aged versus champagne that is
+
+[6:43] unaged and definitely champagne. So the longer you age it, the smaller the bubble is going to be. Also, they are smaller than if you were to take a base one that hadn't been refermented. and carbonated. So it's what's in the product is going to determine the bubble size, how cold it is, and the pressure. Yeah? Good? Good. Dave Climbing writes in back on Father's Day. Happy Father's Day, Dave. Question for the show over here. Homemade jalapeno cheddar Doritos. I have Enzorbit, M, Wei, and cheddar powder. And also he wants to know the best breakfast in Williamsburg or Manhattan.
+
+[7:16] I don't eat breakfast out. So what about Manhattan? You ever eat breakfast out? Not really, no. No? Really don't like it. No? Joe, you eat breakfast out? No, he's gone. Sorry, I'm here. I generally do not. Yeah. Roberta's supposed to have a nice brunch, right? What about brunch, Das? You got a good brunch? No, I eat a home for the 1st meal. You know what? Let me tell you what. If you're in Manhattan, and it's not a sit down thing. I mean, Barney Greengrass Sturgeon King. You ever been there, Stas? It's upper Manhattan. Barney Greengrass, Durgin King. old school New York, and, you know, you get their omelet with the fish in it. But you gotta go to Russian Daughters and get like some amazing locks, some bagels, get their amazing cream cheese, go out, have a picnic.
+
+[7:55] It nice out. I mean, Roberta's, I haven't really, I think I've been here for brunch, but they're supposedly they have a good brunch, right? Yeah. Who else? Can you think of anyone? Uh, no. I just don't eat enough. I don't eat out for the morning. You don't need it at all? I mean, unless I have to. but you have a disgusting look on your face. Usually friends choose like those brunch places that are just bad and expensive. That's your favorite combination, bad and expensive, right? Also, there's hardly ever a reservation, so you're waiting forever. And you could already be eating. And you're starving because it's 1st thing in the morning. Yeah, and you're starving. And like, if you're going to go out, you want that mimosa, but no one else at the table is drinking. And then you don't want to be the dick because you know they're going to split the check and you don't want to be the dick? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you hate that, right, Stas? That's the look. I could sense all of that just from you. You can't see the look on her face, but I can sense all that. Okay, back to the Doritos. All right, so here's the trick. I called Piper on the way in, Piper Christensen, who's our kind of coating snack chips with powders kind of fellow, right? He's our guru on that. He says that Doritos are actually applied not as a powder, but as a slurried spray. He's not sure whether it's an oil-based flurry or water-based flurry that they then dry out later, but they make a slurry and spray it onto the chips, which is why they get such an even
+
+[9:09] coating over such a fine thing. Piper typically when he's making slurries. Um, does about 40% oil by weight with spice mixtures that he's going to put in, but your results may vary. Here's what you definitely don't want to do. You don't want to add Anzorbit to that thing. What you want is, in fact, in the cheddar powder that you have is a lot of maltodextrinal already, which is an anti-caking
+
+[9:29] agent and what's allowed them to spray dry it, and that's going to get in your way, too. But here are the basic ingredients for Doritos. Piper did some research when I was on the train over here. They are cheese powder. They add milk powder and whey proteins because they want to be cheap and don't want to add extra cheese powder. You can just add more cheese powder if you want, or if you want to be more kind of milky, you know, without more cheesy flavor, you can add milk powder and whey protein powder.
+
+[9:57] Okay. whey powder. rather. Also, tomato powder, if you want it red, right? And to get that tomato powder, then they add various pepper powders. Oh, you could source all this stuff, by the way. Pepper powder. So you want jalapeno. The problem is I couldn't find a, I don't know if they have a source of freeze dried jalapeno, which you could just pulse. Otherwise, you're going to have to just get, um, like slice very thin and dry them out and then pulse them and then maybe redehydrate them, or this is why Piper says maybe incorporate them into a slurry, or get other forms of powdered peppers, probably both sweet and
+
+[10:27] spicy, and then salt, probably a healthy chunk of salt. And everyone's favorite ingredient, especially Nastasia's MSG. And so then you're going to want to mix all those things together and don't add any extra bulking agent because these things are going to be bulky enough. Now, you could either take the fresh chip as a 1st thing, like fry it, pull it out, like shake it off a little
+
+[10:51] bit and then shake it with the powder in a core container, but you're going to get clumps. Piper thinks the clumps are coming probably from the maltodextrin, but it's hard to say. Or you could try spreading them out and then making the oil slurry and spraying it with a sprayer. The trick is you got to get a sprayer that can spray powders. I don't have one. So we don't do that. Piper has tried doing a slurry just with shaking, but it was kind of uneven
+
+[11:11] coverage, so you might have to stay with powders. But stay away from the in's orbit because you're not trying to absorb oil off of it. You're trying to spread a powder over top of the chip. Yep. Okay. The other John Stewart writes in. that's so that's what he calls himself. The other John Stewart. The other John Stewart doesn't write us. Well, you know what? You know what, the other John Stewart, you are our real John Stewart. The other, like what everyone else considers the real John Stewart, the other John Stewart, for us, right? Right. About rice. Hammer, Dave, and the boys are just the boy today. Thank you for the popcorn advice the other week. I ended up finding a decent used popcorn machine on Craigslist for 125 bucks. Worked great for family outdoor movie night. Craigslist. Are you a crazy shopper? Yeah, I used to be. Yeah. But you mainly for apartments or for stuff? Both. Did you sell stuff on Craigslist? Do you like those people? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've never been a big Craigslist guy. I should get into it, though, because I'm a big auction guy and eBay guy. So used to eBay that I got to get used to the Craigslist. The whole kind of like where they don't necessarily call you backstyles. like, that means they already sold it. I'm like, well, why don't they they take it off the listing. They just don't do that. I'm not into that. I'm into that. Nastasia comes from the generation where it's just like, it's whatever, it's free flow. Hey man, maybe they sold it. Maybe they didn't. They don't want my money. They don't want my money, you know? Whatever. The question I have for you today is about sticky rice, which I cook pretty regularly and is glorious stuff.
+
+[12:34] I take white glutenous rice, which, by the way, has no gluten, as we all know. Rinse it, soak it for a couple of hours, and steam it. And by the way, that is the traditional technique. You steam sticky rice traditionally. It's not how I cook it anymore, but that's nutritional way. Um, and the pre-soak gets the kind of the water and I get it started and the steaming, you can steam it through without any sort of agitation and it doesn't kind of wash the awesomeness off of it and so it stays sticky and awesome and shiny and it looks great.
+
+[13:00] Anyway. Yeah, it is a really good way to cook. I mean, come on. the way to cook sticky rice, let's be honest. Okay. I've wondered if there's some way to do it with brown rice for both the nutty flavor and the purported health benefits. My one experiment in this regard was a miserable failure, mixing white glutenous,
+
+[13:13] rice and brown rice cooking similarly, i.e. soaking, and then steaming. It didn't stick and the brown rice never cooked through. Do you see a way? Thanks, John Stewart. Okay, 1st of all, uh, 1st of all, if you haven't already tried this, uh, you need to go out and this is a separate. It has nothing to do with what you just asked. But you need to go out and buy some black, sticky rice or Thai, black, sticky rice or whatever the black glutenous rice. There's a number of different things they call it, but it's a long grain sticky rice. So it's already unique there. And they don't mill the outside, so it's got and the brand layer is black. And when you cook it, it kind of turns purple, and it's, it doesn't stick together, but what's awesome about it is the inside of it has that gooey texture of sticky
+
+[13:53] rice, and the outside still has some like snap from the hull on the outside, and it's typically used for sweet recipes, but I use it all the time, or I used to use it all the
+
+[14:02] time, because I just think it's awesome. I love it. Also, if you cook it, overcook it, dehydrate it, it puffs and leaves kind of a black puff thing with a white thing coming out of the inside and puffs extremely well.
+
+[14:12] So black sticky rice, if you haven't already tried it, you're gonna love it. Everyone who tries it, loves it. Very few people I know use it for traditional dessert, you know, applications. Like most people I know just like they just end up loving it. I know I do. Okay. Here's the thing. My rice cooking has gone way downhill. you know, since the past 10 years, basically, because about 10 years ago, I was given the most butt kicking at the time. I think there's higher levels now. Zoji Rushi, induction neuro-fuzzy rice cooker. And that sucker is so awesome that it can cook fairly good sticky rice just by pushing a button and
+
+[14:49] letting it go. Wait, hold on a sec. So wait, wait, wait. John, I have a caller on the air. don't want to lose him. I'm gonna finish your question. So stay tuned for rice cooking and, I think, for a traditional steaming solution to your
+
+[15:01] problem after this call or caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, then Nastasha and Joe, this is Sal and Queens. How are you? Doing all right. How's Queens doing? Queens is great. I have questions about cocktail cherries. And I know you're allergic to them, which is a tragedy, but hoping you could help me out. Okay. So chiefly I'm concerned with storage and firmness. I've been doing cocktail cherries every year with sour cherries from the green market, and I use a recipe from the New York
+
+[15:27] Times, where I heat up maraschino liqueur, and add a splash of almond extract, and pour it over the pitted cherries in the jars, and I put the jars in the fridge, and 2 weeks
+
+[15:35] later, they are delicious. Is that Toby's recipe by the way? What's that? Is that Toby's recipe? very well may be. I don't remember. It's just in my files. But my 1st question is, I'm assuming that I need to store it in the fridge, but I've wondered if the sugar
+
+[15:48] in the liqueur or the alcohol level, because it's about 60 or 64 proof, if that inhibits mold formation or other nastiness. I mean, can I store it outside the fridge at room temperature? Huh, what's the total weight? I mean, total weight of cherries for weight of alcohol? Um, gosh, it's probably, it's probably, I would say, uh, about
+
+[16:08] a, about a 4 to, uh, 3 or 4 to one ratio, with cherries to alcohol. I basically just fill up a, I fill up a pint jar of, uh, a pint mason jar with the cherries and then just, uh, cover them with the alcohol. I mean, the question on yeast and mold is strictly comes down to the final proof of the product. You know what I mean? If your product is, you know, uh, well above uh, 20, 25%, then you're inhibiting acetobactor, you're inhibiting,
+
+[16:38] um, you're inhibiting, I think most yeast. I mean, this is off the top of my head. I would think, although, I'm trying to think of what, there's a bunch of reactions going for like, and they have, how long do they stay firm when you leave them
+
+[16:52] out? Why do you want to leave them out? Just you don't have room in your fridge? Well, yeah, basically just to say, yeah, the safe fridge space. I mean, they keep more or less indefinitely in the fridge. I have some that are 2 or 3 years old that are that are still fantastic and no signs of mold or anything. Well, I'll tell you this. haven't killed me yet. I'll tell you this. My stepfather's grandfather in about 1920 put cherries in high proof
+
+[17:15] brandy and they aren't stored in the fridge. They're stored in, they're stored in the basement
+
+[17:23] in my stepfather's father's basement. He's now 93, 94. They're in his basement, and they're still good. Do they can, though? Are those? Nope. vacuum sealed or anything? No, no. Just in bottle. And you know, in a mason jar. And then they pull them out and there's still 3 left. I haven't had one since I was probably, you know, 13,
+
+[17:46] 12, 13. It knocked me on my butt, but at the time it was still, you know, it was still good to go. Another thing you might want to do, if you want to experiment with extremely firm fleshed
+
+[17:56] ones, is hit them with a little novo shape. Soak them for a while in novo shape and calcium, just prior to the alcohol soak, and see whether or not
+
+[18:09] they, because I haven't run the test because, you know, I can't eat them. The, the old Italian way is that you leave the, you clip the stems, but leave the stems, you leave the stems in, and they say that that is what keeps them from going mushy. I don't know if that's true or false. I mean, now people do that just so that they have the stem in the cocktail, but I don't know. What's your experience been with that? Are you a stem on person or stem off? I'm usually a stem off person because I just, I just throw them, you know, throw them in the bottom of a Manhattan and, you know, the stems get in the way and I don't want people to choke on them. But yeah, that was my next question. was actually going to be about the firmness because, you know, the Luxarto brand cherries are really just kind of meaty. And, you know, the mine, well, they taste great after 2 weeks in the, in the, in the liqueur, they get kind of
+
+[18:48] flabby and I was just wondering if there was some sort of additive, you know, I could use to preserve the texture.
+
+[18:52] So it's, you called it uh novo chem? Novo shape, which is an enzyme that's being sold by, uh, well, you can, it's, you can
+
+[19:00] buy it now, modern's pantry. I think they carry it now. You know, you could test it, but it requires extra calcium to work. And you could also just try adding calcium, and that's going to firm it up too. But the calcium helps the pectins cross-link. And when the pectins cross-link, then the thing stays
+
+[19:17] firmer, doesn't break down. Novo shape is an enzyme that actively cross-links, the stuff in the presence of calcium, so it just accelerates that. There are, uh, it's called uh, pectin, um, what is it, pectin methylesterase is the enzyme. And it, there are natural ones in the in the fruit that will continue to work, but you can just, you know, jacket with
+
+[19:38] that. The one issue with it is that unlike the pectinace enzymes that we use to break down fruit pulp. I don't know how novo shape responds to alcohol concentration. So I know that I know that the Pectinex Ultra SPL, Pectinace that I use works fine in liquor. I don't know about novo shape. You know, it'd be nice to run some experiments. Maybe, you know, I can. I've just been so strapped recently. I haven't had the chance. But the guys at Guzmer might even have like a protocol for it because I'm pretty sure they use stuff like that
+
+[20:08] to do the cherries. And in absence of that, any sort of added calcium is going to help you. Okay, I think I think I will, as soon as the, uh, the very brief Sower cherry season starts, I'll, uh, give it a whack myself and, uh, I'll put the results up on cocktails. Thank you. Super, thank you. Appreciate it Bye- bye. Oh, you didn't say it was that Sam. Hey, Sam. Okay. So, uh, John uh, Stewart, back on Rice. So here's the daily. So the rice cooker, 1st of all, if you don't already own a
+
+[20:41] zoshirushi or equivalent, like super rice cooker, they're just freaking. They're just they're just awesome. But, uh, so what it does is it just controls the temperature very accurate. use a pre-measured amount of water. So unlike steaming where you keep steaming it until it absorbs enough water for it to be perfect. You have to pre-measure the amount of water and they have a line for sticky rice and whatnot. But the good news about these rice cookers is that they can cook mixed
+
+[21:04] rice is fairly effectively because they just wait for everything to absorb the proper amount and then they click out.
+
+[21:11] For instance, I today cooked white rice, regular crappy white rice on the brown rice setting of my rice cooker this morning for like an hour and a
+
+[21:20] half . And it was a little more blown out than normal but was pretty much fine. So you might be able to get away just using like the semi-brown
+
+[21:29] setting, or even maybe the sticky rice setting, but I would try the semi-brown, maybe, of one of those cookers with mixed rice and get it. The other thing is, is that you're never going to get stickiness out of the brown rice, right? So you need to have enough sticky rice to have it stick together, even though the
+
+[21:45] brown, the brown rice is always going to be inhibiting on your stickiness. It's always going to be ruining. It always going to be like kind of, you know, a fly and you're sticking this ointment, so to say. Because, you know, it's not going to provide that stickiness. But the actual accurate answer to do it your traditional way
+
+[21:59] is pretty simple and here it is. Ready? Do your, uh, do your soak, do your soak-doke, whatever you're going to do on the sticky rice. Unfortunately, you don't have times because I didn't have any sticky rice. I couldn't run a quick test. Um, do your soak. Then before you steam the sticky rice, boil the
+
+[22:17] brown rice in copious water, right? Like it's pasta, right? Now, you're going to want to boil it for anywhere between 10 and probably 25 minutes, depending on how much more steaming
+
+[22:30] time it's going to take in with the sticky rice. Okay? Then after you parboil the stuff, don't let it cool down. We're not doing a retrograded parboiling thing, drain it like it's
+
+[22:42] pasta, mix it in with your sticky rice and steam as usual. Now, the major variable here that's going to change is how much you pre-boil the brown rice before you start steaming it. I can't say. I would start, if the brown rice, the last time you did it, was close to being done, I would boil it for maybe 8 minutes, 10 minutes somewhere in
+
+[23:03] there. The hard thing is, is that like rice is going to cook a lot faster in copious boiling water because it can absorb water a lot faster than when you're doing typical absorption methods that don't have a lot of extra water around.
+
+[23:18] You'll know, like, everyone knows when you cook beans and when you cook rice that the last little bit of cooking is the hardest part to get,
+
+[23:24] right? Styles, when you're making like, and it's because there's not as much free water around to get back into your product.
+
+[23:29] So, you know, it might it might only take like 5 minutes of a pre-boil or 8 or 10. I don't know. And then mix it in and steam it. should work. What do you think? Good. All right. She like, I don't care. All right. You want to go to our 1st commercial break? Coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[24:36] This is Chris Young, co author of Modernist Cuisine and co-founder of Chefsteps.com. We've just launched our free short course on verification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid, a culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.
+
+[24:58] Our free course offers helpful step by-step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct verification. We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And, as always, at chef steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking
+
+[25:27] techniques. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and cooking issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. Like, uh, Chris busting out in view. It's a good word, right? Yeah, it's great. Nice. Go check out chest steps, our good friends. Yeah, look, they're good people. They're good people. Not in a long time. good people Okay. Oh, by the way, this weekend, I went up to Riverside Drive. Uh, I found some friends up there up in the 150. you know, you ever been up there, sis? You ever, you ever gone under the, under the George Washington Bridge? a little red lighthouse? When I was a kid, I used to go there, but as a kid, I didn't know any better. So I went there and the entire riverside park over there is
+
+[26:16] nothing but okay, there are other plants. There's a lot of oaks and stuff like that. But the 3 things that struck me were so many mulberry trees, all completely in season right now, so many different kinds of shad slash service berry trees,
+
+[26:31] all almost pretty much in season right now. And 8 bow loads of poison ivy. Like so much poison ivy, like so much poison ivy, but the good news is that the mulberry trees and the service berries are not in the poison ivy. So you don't need to ruin yourself to get these things. And the really sad part about it is, is that I, when I was there, I saw no one, no one gathering the mulberries or the service berries. And I, you know,
+
+[27:01] me and my crew, we picked a couple of quarts of mulberries, you know, the red
+
+[27:07] ones and made a delicious pie. I made, I cooked myself a pie on Father's Day with mulberry pie, but delicious. And then I started noticing there's so many mulberry trees around New York. And so I've now started sampling them. And it turns out they're incredibly variable in quality. like astoundingly variable in quality. Like some are almost inedible. They're crap. And some of them are amazing with, you know, the thing the thing that makes a really great mulberry is, A, no, kind of like not too musky, off-flavored. although I like a little bit of musky mulberry flavor in there. But enough sweetness and also enough acidity. A lot of like when the mulberries are very ripe, they kind of lack acidity and they're kind of a little flabby and flat. So you have to taste all your mulberry trees around you, and now is the time, if you live in New York, where the upper bounds of and taste them. So the interesting is that over there, there's here in the United States, our native mulberry is the red mulberry, Morris rubra, right?
+
+[28:04] Which is can be very delicious. But the problem is, is that they imported these white mulberries, Morris Alba,
+
+[28:10] which the good news about them is that that's what the silkworms eat when they're doing the silkworm stuff. But silkworm, as you can tell, if you've been to the United States, we don't have a giant silk production here. So that whole silkworm thing didn't take off, but these freaking white mulberry trees. I like a white mulberry stars. They're like a little more vegetal, like they're all right. I mean, like, they're no kind of, they're no, they're no Morris rubrub. You know what I'm saying? Uh, uh, but uh, the, the problem is, is these these white mulberry freaking things,
+
+[28:39] hybridize like lunatics, they're just like they hybridize with our, with our native mulberry trees, and they produce all of these like weird crosses, some of which are delicious and some of which are bad.
+
+[28:49] And so you just have to go and also even within just straight up, you know, red mulberries or white mulberries, the tastes are incredibly different. And then some fool has developed fruitless mulberry trees, which is like, I can't
+
+[29:02] even, I can't even describe. I can't use, there are no polite terms to describe kind of what I think because, oh, the mulberry tree is so messy.
+
+[29:08] Crap on you. For like the two, 3 weeks a year that the mulberries are coming off the tree. It's like, it's like the most awesome. 1st of all, Margaret, they're beautiful trees, so I can see why you would want one, but if you don't want the fruit, just don't park your car under
+
+[29:18] it. You know what I'm saying? Jerks, jerks. How was your anniversary? Oh yeah, 18th year anniversary. Good. I had some leftover pie on that. last night. What did I cook? I cooked. What did I cook? I cook crab salad. My wife likes crab salad. Like, that's one of our big, like, she loves pineapple crab salads. I made her pineapple crab salads and some salmon. Dave, did you know there used to be a mulberry tree on this very block? Did you eat, did you partake? I used to all of the time until they built the, uh, they built a parking lot for the for, uh, at the end, right next to Roberta's. And this would, you know, I just walk by and you could just, you know, pull down a branch, pull some berries off and
+
+[29:55] be on your way. Sons of bitches. did they knock it down? It was probably 2 or 3 years ago at this point, but when I 1st moved in around here and it was a sad day when I noticed it was gone. That sucks. Yeah, bummer. That sucks. So, you know, when you're going to when you're going to get mulberries, just like, don't wear clothes that stain, because the suckers are super fragile and they're going to
+
+[30:14] break. Yeah, your hands, right? Even if you just get a couple, they're going to stay in the hell out of your hands. You're going to look like a vampire too. Like, get blood all over yourself. Oh, I know. Dax, when he was eating all my his whole face was all coated and sprayed in mulberry juice. By the way, it's worth it. You know what I mean? So, you know, there's a couple on up near, we had some yesterday stars right near
+
+[30:32] Kazumono where we went for lunch. Yeah, they were really good. The ones by my by the parking lot near my house, real spitters. Real spitters. But I wish we still had the one from Roberta. It wasn't a Roberta's person who knocked it down, was it? don't think so. I think it's for the, there's a parking lot for the wonton factory that's also down the street. I think it's has to do with that. Yeah. I can't imagine that the Roberta's people would knock down the mulberry. No, that'd be crazy. would be absolutely antithetical. Yeah, because they could just be making pies left and right. Yeah exactly. Very local. You know what the thing is, like, I'm not like a local forager by any means compared to people who actually are local foragers,
+
+[31:11] but I mean, that stuff is delicious and it's right there. It's so depressing to not see people eating it. Yeah, free food, free berries. Free food, right. I mean, you know, like if you like, if you live, see, see, the problem is that people aren't used to branching out of their
+
+[31:23] normal, what they, what they eat, you know? Is that a tree pun? Oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't know. So when I used to go to Arizona all the time, because my in-laws lived in Arizona, there's all this
+
+[31:31] free, free citrus on the street and no one eats it because it's sour, but it makes great lemonade. They're basically or marmalade, and yet they're sitting there rotting because no one wants the free fruit. But if Baldur was going to sell you that fruit at, you know, you know, for whatever, then you'd be like, oh, it is great. People are dumb. Not you guys. Not listeners. people. Okay. Tom Fisher, on a coon recon follow-up. It's probably a little strong before. I didn't mean dumb. I just meant they should break out. Don't worry, our listeners love you. Okay. Tom Fisher followed up with his coon recon. Matt, if you remember, Tom was having some trouble with some leaking of steam around the valve on his
+
+[32:10] coon recon pressure cooker. Uh, and I had a couple other people write in saying that they had had a similar problems that maybe there was a QC issue for a while because mine never did that. You know, mine never did that. anyway. So, uh, Coon Recon wrote him back, uh, and here's
+
+[32:25] what uh, Jill Stroop from Coon Recon did. Thank you. This is to Tom. Thank you for providing the additional information about where it was leaking and whatnot. It is normal to have a slight hissing coming from your valve, as long as it is coming up to pressure and not leaking any water from the valve. Your pressure cooker will work as it should. Please let me know if you have any additional questions regard Jill Stoop. So they're not owning it. Not owning it. I'm sorry about that, Tom. You know, a little bit of steam. Now, remember, we talk about steam coming out of the pressure cooker and the flavor loss in a pressure cooker because of the steam coming out.
+
+[33:01] You got the ones that actually vent steam, vent a lot of steam. They're like, the whole time, and you can see steam coming out. And I think that, you know, small amounts of steam coming out probably won't have as much effect, but that's
+
+[33:16] probably of little solace to you. Okay. William McGee writes in. We named an episode after him when he became a member about dehydrators and vacuum machines. I'll do it in reverse. man, I'll do it. I recently bought our next caliber 5 trade dehydrator and been using it like crazy. Good call. Excalibur is a good dehydrator. dehydrating things like, do you like when people say herbs instead of herbs?
+
+[33:39] Or do you hate that stats? I don't like herb. You don't like herb? No, no offense to anyone out there named Herb. Because no dude is named Herb. I gave herb. Her is okay. That herb's okay, but not herb that you eat. Okay, so herb the guy. He's okay He's okay. All right. Tomatoes and bananas. The bananas taste great. The texture is leathery and it's chewy. I've read store bought banana chips are either freeze dried or fried. Any way to make them crispy without frying. Yeah, freeze drying. No kidding. anyway. My other, let's do that first. Okay, here's the problem. Whenever you're drying something in a normal dehydrator, as it dehydrates, the cells are going to collapse down, and there's really almost nothing you can do about it, unless you can either preserve the structure, which is done in freeze
+
+[34:23] drying by freezing and then sublimating the liquid out of it, or frying where the water is boiling out of it at a kind of a ferocious rate and keeping the structure expanded until it's dry enough to hold its own weight afterwards.
+
+[34:38] So really, like, that's the problem. There is, you know, there are very few things you can do at at home to mimic that. You can, for instance, par dehydrate bananas and then explosively puff them in the museum of food and drinks puffing gun. There are a bunch of people who have dried fruits and vegetables using explosive puffing techniques. It's a little bit outside the range of what you can do at home. Another thing that's outside of the range of what you could do at home that does a similar thing is microwave vacuum dehydration. Now, please do not tamper with your microwave in any way. It can be very, very dangerous. That said, I've done it, and I had very miserable results when I was trying to do vacuum microwave dehydration, which shows that, like, even if you have, you know, a, you know,
+
+[35:24] fair amount of, uh, a willingness to mess around with the, the technical aspects of things, it's not exactly simple to do. I'll tell you what the main problem with microwave vacuum dehydration is. And the principle there is that you put a vacuum on your product and then you put a microwave to boil the water out, but because it's under a vacuum, it doesn't boil at very high temperature so that the products don't get cooked and the sugars don't caramelize and it keeps
+
+[35:49] its, you know, it works nicely. Now, the problem is, is that if you even slightly overheat a portion of the thing with the microwave and it's under a vacuum,
+
+[35:59] uh, you uh, can sort of carbonize the outside, once it goes black, you get huge plasma arcs coming out of
+
+[36:06] it. And so it forms almost like a giant light bulb on the inside of your microwave and
+
+[36:11] some awful burning, terrible smells. And not to mention the fact that you've, you know, you modified your microwave and, you know, had to hook a vacuum machine up
+
+[36:21] to it. It's just a just a nightmare. Just a real nightmare, right? So I'd say, I'd say I have no good solution for you there, right? Okay. Sorry. Now, the other question, I have an opportunity to buy a used VACMaster VP 215, the one with the oil-based pump for a good price. What are the things you need to check out to make sure it's in good working condition? The unit's about a year old and was primarily used in a home. As always, keep up the awesome work, William McGee. Here's what you need to do. First of all, check to make sure it seals bags. If the Teflon seal bar across it, if the seal bar is kind of burnt, that's not such a big deal because you have to replace the Teflon tape that goes over the seal bar on a relatively regular basis anyway. Open the machine, run it for like five, 10 minutes to heat up the pump and to boil out any
+
+[37:03] contaminants that are in the oil, then stick a container of ice water into it, close
+
+[37:08] it, and run it. If you can eventually, when I say eventually after like, you know, several minutes, boil the ice water, then your, uh, then your
+
+[37:17] pump's probably in pretty good shape. It can boil it off and then, you know, you're doing well. If it can't boil that, see if it can boil like cold tap water. If it can boil cold tap water also, probably doing okay. Make sure the gauges work properly. Other than that, right? I mean, that's those are things I would check right off the bat. I mean, it should sound smooth. It shouldn't sound like it has any problems. Other than that, those are the main things to check. Also, make sure that the vacuum setting knob that allows you to change what the preset vacuum is. Make sure that it works properly because a lot of times the vacuum gauge can go on it. Uh, and by the way, when you're running those tests, you want it at maximum vacuum so you can see what it can do and it's trying to pull all the way down. Uh, you would make sure that it can actually that that thing works. A lot of times that goes, not that that's a big deal. But check those out and see what's going on, right? Okay. We got this one in from Scott at in Guelph. But although we don't know whether he's at the University of Guelph or not. We don't know yet. I don't know. Maybe he'll tell us today. Hey, Hammer, he wrote 2 different things. combining them. Hey, Hammer and the Nails, Jack, Joe, and whoever the heck is working today. That would make me the nails, which I guess sounds like it's cool except for I'm getting hit over the head with a hammer. anyway. I've been inadvertently reading a lot lately about coffee. I love espresso as well as a balanced American style cup of coffee. And then he says, stop burning your beans, Starbucks. I agree, yeah. Yes. Wow, yeah, I love, oh, Stas, now she perks up when someone throws a similar hate down. Well, we all know that Nastasia prefers coffee that she gets on the corner out of the person who lives in that metal box. Um, which is no offense to the guy in the metal box. Yeah. But I know. I don't think he's sourcing, you know, the highest quality beans or really cares about him that much. I mean, if the quality, if the quality of the coffee mimics the quality of the buttered Kaiser roll, then, you know,
+
+[39:07] yeah, okay. Kaiser rolls are so awesome though. you know, like for, I haven't eaten one in many years. I love Kaiser Rule. You like Kaiserl? little swirly shape with the poppies, right? You don't like a plane Kaiser roll, right? Yeah, okay, good. Finally, we can agree on something. All right. I got a chance. Oh, sorry. There are a lot of people out there doing a lot of techniques and experimenting with different variables. I got a chance to try cat crap coffee a couple years ago, and I really like the richness and strength of the coffee without the bitterness or harshness. What he's referring to here, of course, is Kopi Luak. And it's not actually a cat. So it's called a Civic Cats, a Civet, just little creature. It's also the same creature that they, uh, in kind of keep in cages in uh, North Africa. I think it's in North Africa, and get musk from that civet, that perfume thing, and people are up in arms. I don't really know whether it's good or bad for the animals or if it's painful. I know nothing about it. But what happens over in Kopi Luak land. You know, in the Pacific there is the civic cats run around, eat the choicest ripest coffee cherries,
+
+[40:09] which, by the way, don't taste good. I've had coffee cherries. They don't taste anything like a cherry. So I thought I was like, oh, it could be awesome. No, no, no, no, no. don't good. I mean, not terrible, but like a papery husk with like a little bit of mucilage. whatever. So ate the choicest ripest ones. And the great thing about these civic cat things is
+
+[40:25] they they always go to the same place and they crap in the same place and they crap out a load of beans and you know they do it pretty quick because you know they're hyped up caffeinated because there's caffeine in those
+
+[40:34] beans as well. And I'm sure that the fruit does a similar thing to you that the brew does. And so I'm sure that the civic cats are like running over there to crap out their little pile of beans. And, uh, you, they've been, uh, kind of dehulled at that and their intestinal system, which is somewhat short, uh, does some work on the outside of it and supposedly makes these beans awesome,
+
+[40:54] right? So that's the theory of the cat crab coffee. Cat crab coffee sounds like cat scratch fever, like the Nugent. That's Ted Nugent, right? Right, Joe? Nugent, right? Cast Catch Weaver? Definitely. Yeah, okay. Anyway. So, here's my rundown to try and recreate the cat crap with non-excreted coffee
+
+[41:12] beans. First of all, and this has just got, like, letting letting you listeners know his technique, which I've never tried before, so maybe we'll
+
+[41:19] try. Maybe one of you guys will try it. Here's my rundown to create this with non-excreted beans. First of all, you need a funnel and a coffee filter. The key is to hydrate the grounds first. You boil a kettle of water and then pour the freshly boiled water on the grounds a little bit. Uh, like the ISI method that you developed that I developed for infusion. This allows a liquid to get intimate with the grounds and start the process of dissolving all the coffee goodness. After about 5 minutes, the kettle is cool to the ideal temperature for coffee extraction. Slowly, slowly pour the water over the grounds, keeping the ground swirling around for a maximum extraction rate. I use 3 tablespoons of coffee for a regular 12 ounce coffee cup. The whole extraction takes between 30 seconds and one minute. This is enough to get all the richest and flavor out of the coffee, but not long enough to get the acidity in the tannins. The result is a very rich
+
+[42:00] brew without the harshness. It even tastes good when it has gone cold. I know you love the espresso, but this is a brew that is impressive, even if it lacks the slap in the face beauty of espresso. So if someone give that a try. See whether you like it. Interesting. I haven't tried. I have not tried that. I do not know. I have not tried it. Now, on the topic of sugar, I've been teaching my hospitality students, hospitality. I'm teaching the hospitality students how to make hard candy stained glass sculptures. We've been assembling the structures with hot glue or molten sugar. Uh, although, you know, isomalt is much easier, as you know, because you're about to talk to me about my isomalt, because isomalt is non-hygroscopic, so it doesn't suck
+
+[42:31] up uh, uh, you know, it doesn't suck up moisture from the atmosphere as readily as sugar does. And it also doesn't brown as much when you boil it and you can
+
+[42:38] when you heat it and you can reheat it and remelt it a couple of times without getting all brown and breaking down the way sucrose does. Anyway, it occurred to me that a hot glue gun might be loaded with sugar to melt it without caramelized again. We use a mix of granulated sugar and straight vinegar brought up to 310, the straight vinegar there for those of you that don't do sugar work is there to, um, invert a portion of the sugar, uh,
+
+[42:58] because the acid at high temperature hydrolyzer. Sugar breaks the sucrose into fructose and glucose. That's invert, and the invert is there to prevent recrystallization of the sugar as it cools. You got to get the amount right. Otherwise, otherwise, it's too soft. Anyway, whatever. Uh, and straight uh, vinegar brought to 310 to get crystal clear sugar glass without recrystallization. Since you have experience with 3D printing food. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about 3D printing sugar rather than chocolate or masa paste. Can you imagine chowing down on a nastasia shaped jawbreaker or just breaking it? Just breaking it. So, uh, here's the thing. There are, there's a, I think it's, I forget the name of the website, because I forgot to look it up, an
+
+[43:38] evil mad scientist, I think, or the rep rap guys, and they did a extruded
+
+[43:43] sugar. And so what they extruded sugar, I believe, either into more sugar or into cornstarch and made a giant wood screw out of sugar.
+
+[43:52] So yes, sugar, molten sugar has been 3D printed for a long time, and there are tons of pastry arts people out there who load isomalt sticks.
+
+[44:01] They don't use sugar sticks. They use isomalt sticks into hot glue guns, and then use the isomalt sticks as hot glue. There's, in fact, a company called, I think, get sassy, sassy shot is the name of their thing that sells a tailor-made item for this. I would use the low temperature glue guns and realize that you will probably burn yourself. Say this again, you're going to burn yourself, and then as a secondary thing, you might want to know that you're going to burn yourself. Also, the auto feed things don't work, so you're going to have to use a chopstick or a stick to push the isomalt through the
+
+[44:34] glue gun. do not use one that was already used on glue. Get a fresh one. And also, I believe use the low temperature, the low wattage ones, because I've heard that the other ones, the sugar just melts out into nothingness and sprays all over and does what
+
+[44:46] does. Yeah, burns you. So anyway, so yes, that's possible. Um, now, um, Second, I just wondering, Dave, there's a whole bunch of info on sucrose
+
+[44:59] syrup, water, concentrations versus boiling temperature. Do you have any info on boiling other sugars or sugar alcohols? What is the temperature versus concentration curve for fructose or dextrose or xylatol? Do any of the sugars have interesting properties other than isomalt? Scott? Well, yeah, the book you want to look at that has a lot of those charts is alternative sweeteners, edited by Lynn O'Brien, Nabors. And it's a lot of it's available on Google Books and on Amazon to sift through, including some of the charts for things like
+
+[45:28] isomalt and xylotol to get their sugar versus concentration curves, temperature versus concentration
+
+[45:35] curves and how soluble they are. In other words, how high solids you can get out of it. And other properties, obviously, Xylotol is cooling. I've been interested in a while, although I haven't played with it with isomulchulos, which is a sucrose derivative. And the cool thing about that is it's about 50% is Swedish sugar. It is caloric, meaning you actually process it in your gut, which means it doesn't set your butt on spray if you eat too much of it, which I've never actually had with
+
+[46:01] isomalt. People say if you eat too much isomalt. It causes it causes multiple trips to the bathroom. Let's put it that way. Uh, but, um, apparently, um, isomulchulose does not, uh, and it's absorbed slower, which I guess some people think is
+
+[46:16] good, but I do not. I also think what's interesting is I don't believe is extremely fermentable by yeast. In other words, you might be able to use it to backsweetened beers after fermentation and then not have them get further fermented by the yeast, although I'm not
+
+[46:32] sure. I haven't checked up very much. So I'm not sure. But look into that. Okay, very quickly, Mike writes in about bones. Hey, it's grilling season. So I have a question. Many people write about how cooking meat on the bones leads to a more flavorful finished product. Is there any reason to believe this? I get that bones are inherently flavorful, which is why we use them for making stock, but I don't see how a bone can transfer
+
+[46:50] flavor in a grilling environment. Thanks, Mike. I agree with you. I don't think it does. What happens with a bone? I mean, when you're using a stock, you're using it for gelatin extraction and for the meat that's stuck to it. But when you're doing it in a, um, when you're doing a grilling environment, really, it's there as a heat, uh, modulates the heat so that you don't uh, overcook it. Some people like gnawing on the bones and so there's that, but I don't really think it's adding much flavor to
+
+[47:15] it, right? What do you think, Snows? Right. Yeah, all right. Okay, so it looks, again, do we have any time or are we... No, I think we're good. Well, you can go on a quick, quick. Nothing's ever quick. know. Nothing's ever quick. All right. I was going to go onto a quick rant about Clustridium Perfringens and Rachel Dutton, the microbiologist from Harvard. And Harold McGee, who sent me the greatest scientific paper I have ever read about salt risen bread and
+
+[47:44] clustridium in the salt risen bread and about this awesome cassava product from, you know, from Cameroon and Africa that I've eaten and how they all link together and how this links in with gas gangrene and wound victims in World War
+
+[48:00] I, but I guess there's no time cooking issues.
+
+[48:08] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:40] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking here. She coming to you live. Roberto's Pizzeria. Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 Joined today by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez with Jack, Joe and Eddie in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Hey, you're pretty revved up today, huh? Well, it's so freaking hot out that, like, I don't know, my body now that it's cool in the air conditioning here has all this, I don't know, extra energy it was using to cool
+
+[0:56] itself. I don't know. Now I don't know. I made that up. Call your questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We hope to be joined soon, correct, Nastasia? With, uh, you know, one of our favorite all time people. Harold McGee, great master blaster of science as it relates to making things delicious. He is actually en route now from his hotel in Manhattan to the Heritage
+
+[1:20] Radio Network Studios here in Brooklyn. So we'll see how long that takes. It's actually a really crappy time to travel from Manhattan because they're always working on the freaking bridge. Everyone takes the bridge and they're always working on it. You guys notice that? He's taking a subway. Subway. What's that The traffic sucks from here to from Manhattan to here around noontime. Sucks. I think he's making a joke because he never goes. Oh, oh, I get it. I don't understand people who don't go to Manhattan. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, we're traveling out here in the in greater in greater Brooklyn. So anyway, so should we hit some questions before he shows up? Anything cool happening, Nastasia? No. Nothing? I only hit some questions. All right. I have I have one little message. I was at Bonnaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's and it was all crazy and everything and we got a little message from a friend that I'm going to play. Yo, yo, Jeremiah Bullfrog here at Bonnaroo. hanging out with Heritage Radio. Y'all know the deal. I love myself since Jeremiah Bullfrog. He's the king of the Miami food trucks, if I'm not mistaken. Gastropod. Gastropod. He a good man. Good man. Met him a number of years ago back when I used to teach at the French Culinary Institute, back when it was called, the French Culinary
+
+[2:28] Institute before it became the International Culinary Center, right? Nostalgia? Yeah. Okay, have 1st of all, a shout out to Jack and some information about the museum from Kate. Hello, everyone. I have 2 questions, if you don't mind, but 1st I do apologize because I'm still catching up on the backlog of cooking issues. So I apologize if you've covered these topics already, please do not feel obliged to listen to our back catalog, right, Stas? I realize, always say. Uh, she says, uh, I realized this website for Mofad, that's the Museum of Food and Drink, uh, is updating and looking good. I'll check the website once in a while and hope that more is developed. I would be so excited if it happened as I live in Brooklyn, love cooking, and museums. I do work in the nonprofit sector, so I understand that it takes a tremendous amount of work to get them going. I'm down to help in any way possible. I sent an email to them with an offer to volunteer, if needed, whatever it takes to get those doors open. I enjoyed the southern food and beverage museum so much when it was in New Orleans, and when I was in New Orleans, it's about time New York has a spot of their own. I'm sure working alongside the New York Historical Society could be fun too, is they recently had a beer exhibit. Well, good news. Uh, 2 good news is, one, Kate, we are going to have a Kickstarter launching
+
+[3:33] WinStars. Saturday. Saturday? Kickstarter for the Museum of Food and Drinks. So there's going to be a lot happening and a lot to look at and a lot to look for. So please everyone look out. We're going to put it on Twitter blast, but the Museum of Food and Drink Kickstarter on the puffing gun is going to be up within a week. I told by noastasia. She knows all these sorts of things. And the 2nd piece of good news I have for you is that Harold McGee is now in the studio. Is this the 1st time you've been on the show live? By phone. By phone, yeah. In person, 1st time, yes. So, listen, Trump suckers. This is your chance to call in personal questions to Harold McGee at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And congratulations to all your recent graduates out there. Okay. And Jack, you might be interested in this before. Before we start up. Kate also said, I just listened to the cooking issues episode that was recorded right after Valentine's
+
+[4:31] Day, and I can't help myself, but let Jack know that I would have inquired about a potential Valentine's Day. He sounds sweet, funny, and interesting. flattered. Yeah? I'm also taken now, though. Oh, man. Kate, you're too late. Too late. Well, you never know. Jack. I mean, I don't do I know your new girlfriend? No, you don't. So I can say this, maybe it'll be over. Maybe there's room for kids. Maybe even more less. I don't know. I don't know. I'm getting, I'm getting the, I can't believe he's saying this shaking head look from Nastasia. Harold, how you doing? I'm doing well, except for having taken the red eye and had problems with a hotel, but
+
+[5:08] otherwise, great. What kind of problems? Went to one place and a reservation went to the 2nd place and a reservation. So up in the air. And by the way, he is coming here directly off of the red eyes. So this is probably the only chance that you have. I've never, like, he's never been tripped up, and he's never gotten angry at anyone. So here is your here is your chance to maybe try either because we have with us a tired Harold McGee. But thanks so much. Thanks so much for coming on the show. So I'll have some questions. Here's one that you might want to weigh in. Barry McCasey writes in. Please address factors that contribute to food aroma. Now that's very broad. So I'm not going to ask you to do that because, you know, that's like a topic of a whole book that you're probably working on now. But EG, how can the aroma of almond chicken soup be enhanced and
+
+[5:56] fill the room? And you've done some work with this in classes with just simply with fans, right? Uh, yeah. Um, well, a bunch of different ways. That's certainly one of them, heating the soup up so that it's giving off as much vapor as possible. And it turns out that if you have room to do it, if the soup could use a little salt, salt will actually help drive aroma out of a food and into the air, because it makes the food more polar, more electrically
+
+[6:30] charged and aromas don't like that, so they get out into the air where they're more comfortable. Now, does that effect reach a certain saturation point or can you take a small portion of the soup, put it in a wide vessel? Presumably you want the soup in a very wide vessel. So you have maximum surface area. Yeah. So, I mean, could you could you punch that up and take a bit of it, put it in a super wide vessel and just salt the
+
+[6:50] bejesus out of it? I've never tried that experiment. Worth trying. Yeah, I mean, if you have some extra soup. lying about. You know? Sacrifice a couple ladles full in a frying pan with some salt and see whether or not you can really amp up
+
+[7:03] the uh... Well, and frying pan, I mean, why not fry it? I mean, put the heat on and boil it. That'll get it into the area even faster than just kind of letting it evaporate. I guess that's true huh? I hadn't thought about that. But you might get bonding and stuff with the oils, right? No? No, I guess maybe, I don't know. Well, I don't mean fry fry. boil. Well, yeah, yeah. boil hard. Use a fan, maximize surface area, right? It's all about volatility with that stuff. They were almost fairly simple. I mean, it's very, very complicated in how it's integrated, but fairly simple in that it's crap that goes up into the air. Yep, that's right. That's right. And into your nose. Yeah, and it has to be in the air first. Right. And, you know, if you want to cheat, I mean, people have done things like put things in vaporizers and actually volatilize them or you
+
+[7:48] could, um, use ultrasonic humidifiers, actually don't boil things. They create tiny kind of misdroplets, they can carry heavier molecules with
+
+[7:56] them, so you could use an ultrasonic commutifier. But on chicken almond soup. I think that's gonna be kind of a nightmare. It needs to be water thin for that to work. Another thing you can do, not fill a room, but the Japanese are very
+
+[8:09] fine when they have their soups of covering their soups with a bowl on the way to the table with an
+
+[8:14] inverted like a smaller bowl and it has the effect of concentrating the headspace directly above the soup.
+
+[8:19] So then the person grabs the uh, the lid, lifts it, and the soup wafts up into their uh, nose, and they get the uh, the full aroma of it. That's how the Japanese get away with having relatively underflavored broth. Boom, boom. Uh, but the uh, uh, it's a little, you know, a little, little dig at the Japanese broth there. But the, but right or no? Yeah. Yeah. And you don't get, if you can smell it coming, then your nose is already beginning to get adapted to it, right?
+
+[8:48] It knows what's coming. It's going to say, okay, yeah, that's that's chicken almond soup, but if you present it with no fanfare, you just open it up and there it is powerfully, it's a much more intense
+
+[9:01] experience. An excellent point that I hadn't thought of. And the reason why we should have Harold McGee here all the time, all the time. Yeah, in fact, you know, it's an interesting point. Modern cooking, when I say modern, modern American home cooking, is all about kind of integrating the kitchen with the dining
+
+[9:20] experience. And part of that is because people who wouldn't ordinarily, 80 or 100 years ago, bee cooking, you know, people who are actually kind of running the house now, take pride in
+
+[9:28] what they're cooking. So they want to be integrated in with their guests and have it. And so it's become part of this, you know, aroma of the kitchen is considered a positive thing. Whereas, uh, you know, a 100 years ago, it would be, you'd be horrified to smell what was going on in the kitchen in your house. It would be horrific, a sign of, you know, poverty and disgust. You know what I mean? And although I definitely fall in the more modern camp. It is interesting to the idea that maybe you could have, in certain circumstances, a much more powerful presentation if they didn't smell it until the moment they were going
+
+[9:57] to eat it rather. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe you want one kind of wafty welcoming aroma, but that should be not something that you're actually going to serve at the dinner. Best of both worlds. Okay. Joel writes, and by the way, Joel, if you're listening, this is Joel of the
+
+[10:17] of the heavy of the, you know, metal version of cooking issues, rights, and with a rib problem, your idol, Harold McGee is here. Did you ever hear his song he sang to you? No. We'll play it for you later. You know, I'm sure Jack has it here in the archives. Joel, here, cooking issues, personal performance artist. Still wicked excited to hear my song being used and pumping up the Heritage Radio Airwaves, and still waiting to hear more about the Sears All attachment progress. The deal with it is we're just trying to figure out, like my partners are a little worried about safety and people burning themselves is really the main issue.
+
+[10:45] And so that's what we're dealing with, right, Stas? Yeah. Uh, okay. I would be more than happy to be a tester, and we'd like to report back my findings. On my question regarding low temperature short ribs, boneless, but 1st here are the specifics. £40 of ribs at 57 degrees Celsius, which is roughly 135 Fahrenheit for you, Fahrenheit heads out there. I cooked them for 60 hours, and the bag contents were seared, unsalted meat, reduced red wine, raw mirepoix, herbs, reduced chicken stock,
+
+[11:09] cold in the walk-in for a few days, all items bagged, room temperature, and vacuum sealed, and placed into 2 separate preheated bass, and covered for 60 hours and left a run for the weekend, unattended. Results. One bath of bags came out great. No sign of bacterial growth or off smell. I ate about 6 ounces and I'm feeling fine, as you should, because it's safe. I'm also researring and bringing them up to the good portion of the meat. All the bags in the 2nd bath were puffed to near explosion. I open one bag and it smelled like death and gym socks. Good combo. Pretty close to what my grease trap smells like. Besides a few $100 worth of meat I threw away. The only thing I can take away from this is to turn into a learning experience for myself and my team. So I need help finding out what happened. I know it's hard to figure out if both bats were at a concert temperature since I left them unattended, but both bags were plugged into the same outlet and running when I returned. Although, that's no sign of anything because they can turn off and they can turn back on again, like a plug can get them kicked. By the way, in the future, never plug 2 circulators into the same outlet, it's possible that they'll continue running, and then it's also quite possible that you'll blow a circuit. Like very possible that you blow a circuit because even a 20 amp circuit, like, I mean, they're not running for the same, they're not running full bore all the time, but
+
+[12:17] I've more than, I've on more than 3 occasions seeing people do that and have circuits blow. Uh, even even on a 20. You just never know. So don't do it. But both bags were plugged into the same outlet and running on our return. Here's my thinking. Chicken stock is possibly too much age on it being the culprit. Do not think that was the culprit. I kept my backbags very close to my baking area in my kitchen where I used natural starters. This may have caused a reaction from reason for microbes to find their way into the bag. I do not think so. One circular, maybe off calibration. This is possible. You should calibrate your circulators with ice waters. The very 1st batch of the new style of circulators, had an issue where it was very easy to set the temperature offset incorrectly and have problems.
+
+[12:55] Uh, so it could be a possibility, but it's fairly unlikely because I think I know what happened.
+
+[13:00] Red wine causing some pickling or fermentation, not the culprit. Cross-contamination. Also not the culprit. I've heard that blanching the bags at a much higher temperature is a good safety step. I try that next time. Help me, help me, please. Love Joel. You have a couple of problems. One, you put raw mirepoix in the bag. Raw Mirepoix has a lot of air in it, and so unless you suck for a super long amount of time, There was probably a lot of residual air left in the Mirepois. As you started cooking, it started heating, the air migrated out of the Mirepoix creating an air gap in your bag. You probably had a further complication at the bags were very tightly packed together.
+
+[13:35] That's a lot of meat to be putting into 2 circulators at the same time, right? So if they're packed tightly together, and then you get any air, you have 2 major insulating effects in your bag. As the air puffs up, you're also taking up more space and it's more difficult for the water to get into the center of the bags. As that happens, if your bags don't get up to bacteria killing temperature within a couple of hours, you're
+
+[13:57] going to get lactic acid bacteria growing in the bag. The lactic acid bacteria is going to create some awful, disgusting, funky smells and cause the bag to blow and puff, right? And then subsequent cooking will actually probably kill those bacteria over a long period of
+
+[14:11] time because they probably won't survive at those high temperatures. However, it's too late. The meat's already ruined and the bag's already puffed. So you have a couple of things you can do. One good way to deal with over cramped bags is to, like you say, put them into simmering water for a minute or 2 to kill all the bacteria on the outside and start
+
+[14:30] the cooking. Looks like we have a color. We have a cl? Oh we have Patrick. Patrick is going crazy with the I got the color. Patrick, come on in here, you crazy crazy. Harold McGee. Here's Patrick, our founder, Patrick Martin. I feel like a I feel dull witted in this room right now. Wow. Three of you guys. Wow. Have a seat. Have a seat. at you, that's right. All right. So there's another mic, Patrick. Why sit over here? Climb over. I won't clean, but did I interrupt the show? Poquito, Poquito. Okay, so here we go. Uh, so, uh, you can dip them in very hot water, like 85 c simmering water to kill the bacteria on the
+
+[15:08] outside. You can start the cooking in a combi oven and then throw them in to finish, and just don't overcrowd them in general. If you cook the mirepois, the air cells will get ruptured as the vegetables shrink down. You also get less puffing from the air and you can suck a hard vacuum. Don't be afraid, by the way, to salt your ribs before you put them in the bag because they're being cooked for a long time and you don't want a fresh steak texture on them anyhow. And also over reduce your stock, right? Yeah, yeah. All right, you want to take should we take a quick break so we can come back with maximum Herald McGee? Quick break.
+
+[15:44] And today's break song is The Hustle by Alan Wilkes, and you are listening to cooking issues on heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[16:46] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, They also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamies, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red waddles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule flips. Try their award-winning Stuart pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit
+
+[17:25] shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back with cooking issues calling your questions too, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128. So Harold and I were talking about one of your questions, and so we might as well talk about it on the air. Paul writes in on honey and fruit. Hey, cooking issues crew. Just sending you a link about using honey water to stop fruit from browning. I thought it was an interesting alternative too, ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C, different from citric acid. Remember that, people. Everyone always makes that mistake. You notice that, Harold? No. Really? You don't make that mistake, but people, well, when I'm teaching people, they're always like, I bought that. I bought the citric acid and it didn't work. I'm like, no, so the vitamin C. It's escorbic acid. Citric acid will prevent browning somewhat by lowering a pH, but not nearly as much as ascorbic acid, which is actual antioxidant. So the video in question is by Rebecca Masters on America's Test
+
+[18:15] Kitchen, and it's available even if you don't pay. So you can go look at it. And what she does is she soaks slices of apple in, well, Well, I don't know what she uses because I don't remember, but the paper, relevant papers say about 10% honey solution. So, Harold, you want to talk about this for a minute? Sure. This came as news to both of us that honey would do this. But a couple of things. One of the reasons I think we haven't heard more about honey is that the experiment suggested that there were peptides, pieces of proteins that were responsible for this, and the people who wrote the paper in
+
+[18:48] 1990 saying that honey would inhibit Browning, said they were going to follow up on that and find out which peptides were responsible.
+
+[18:56] And it's been radio silence from them ever since. So it never got followed up on. And then there was a paper in 2000 that did follow up on the honey, but said that they got really variable results depending on which honey they used. Some were good, some were not so good. So I think my guess is if you actually did an ascorbic acid, honey side by side, probably ascorbic acid would be more reliable.
+
+[19:20] Right. Well, I forget which one it was. I read another paper on the various different I mean, scorbic acid is also interesting because it can actually reverse some of
+
+[19:28] the some of the browning after it's already occurred, but they said also some of the honeys. I mean, it's really conflicting information. Just to be clear, though, the paper from 1990 specifies clover honey, right? So, like, you think clover honey is more likely to work than other types of honey or no? I don't know. don't know. Hard to say. Good thing for, you know, somebody to follow up on. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, honey is a, and I didn't really, I mean, I've always, you know, like, I don't I don't know whether I ascribe. Do you describe this whole uh, local uh, allergen, honey,
+
+[19:58] Deleo, or no? I don't know about that one. Where if you show up in a place and you're going to have seasonal allergies in that place, you just pound some honey from that place and that they wipes out your seasonal
+
+[20:08] allergies. I wish I'd known that 2 weeks ago. I don't know whether it's true or not, but this is an often held belief, but I have no idea about the efficacy of said
+
+[20:17] thing, but honey is a miracle. Honey syrup is an incredible foam forming agent in cocktails because of the extra proteins. So we use that in conjunction with some of our milk wash
+
+[20:28] strengths at the at the rest at the bar to get really dense heads of
+
+[20:32] foam. That was Piper's call. Pip came up with that. Are there any concentrated feeding operations for bees where like bees get
+
+[20:39] overused or don't have the room to do what they need to do? Well, I mean, I don't think that the bees aren't. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't go crying about, you know, go overcrowding on bees. They kind of, that's how they groove, like they, on overcrowding and like keeping their temperature up in the winter by being close to each other and buzzing, and also how they kill, how they kill giant, uh, the giant hornets. you know, by glomming onto them and shaking so hard that they heat them up and kill them. So bees don't have the same problems with overcrowding that we do, although they will swarm out of their
+
+[21:07] colony. If they're too crowded, they'll swarm. Uh, but yes, so if you talk to natural honey producers, as I have done, remember that lady who chewed our
+
+[21:15] Euroff stars? Anyway, national honey producer. Like, anyway, my point is, is that, like, the big thing that they hate is feeding them sugar water to tide them over on the winner. That's what the honey producers are like, I don't feed my bees any sugar water. You know what I mean? Ruins the honey. Anyway, but so yeah, I mean, and then the other problems with bees, obviously. I mean, the other problems with bees, if you, like, when they're store too close together, I don't, I'm not up. I haven't been up on the colony collapse papers in for about probably 5 years or something like that. But, um, you know, they used to think that overcrowding and too close the proximity of commercial highs was part of the spread of colony collapse. Do you know anything about modern modern? Actually, you're mentioning the sugar water is interesting because the
+
+[21:59] latest I've heard is that, you know, it's probably lots of different things, these
+
+[22:04] mites and a virus and crowding and pesticides and all that kind of thing. But one of them is the fact that, uh, uh, it's become more and more common to feed bees on either sugar water or high fructose corn
+
+[22:18] syrup. And what they've found is that honey actually has lots of stuff in it that's good for bee health.
+
+[22:24] And if you deprive them of that and just give them sugar water or high fructose corn syrup. They're gonna get sick. So the idea is give them enough honey to feed themselves and maybe things will get better. And no allergies for the bees either. No, nothing, nothing, no problems with that. Hey, did you know? just read this, but I don't know if it's true. Certain Linden flowers are irresistible to bees, but toxic to them. No. I got to research more. That might be crap, but I read it somewhere. But it could be crap because many things that I read are. Here's one that you might want to chime in on. I have a good recommendation for where to go look at it, but Joe Blow, which is like kind of the
+
+[23:00] best, well, they're Joe Blow 67, but it's a good, it's a good, what's it called? It's a tweet, tweeter, tweeter name. Uh, uh, love the podcast. Quickie. Why does OJ taste so horrible after I brush my teeth? Well, uh, the go to www.bite size with a Y, as in small, like, as in bits and bites. Bite-size science.com, the American Chemical Society, of which Harold is a member and a regular speaker for their
+
+[23:28] things. They have a web series of short videos on science that people might find
+
+[23:32] of interest. They did one on this. And they say that it's the sodium laurel sulfate in toothpaste that, uh, that A, suppresses sweetness and B, washes off the phospho lipid. So it suppresses sweetness and enhances your ability to taste bitter. You ever read anything on that? No, no. Interesting. I did read a paper by commercial, uh, commercial tasting thing where people who, you know, we're apt to brush our teeth in the morning because that's what we
+
+[23:56] do, and they show up to work and they need a taste, and they actually cancel the effect of the toothpaste and get them ready for tasting by pounding several glasses of OJ.
+
+[24:04] So there are some studies on that. But, uh, I recommend you, uh, Joe Blow to bite-science.com. Interesting little website. All right. Can I interrupt with a question? Sure. Um, I'm always hypersensitive about how I eat, uh, you know, because I eat out a lot for my work and my wife's in the food world too. So, um, I always wonder about the effects of that on my health, and I read Michael Polland's piece,
+
+[24:27] germs, and uh, I was wondering, I mean, should people who are worried about such things, like, send their feces to that place in Colorado and
+
+[24:36] and have them do studies on it, and is it as important as DNA and all
+
+[24:41] of that? Is your poop as important as your DNA? Well, they say the microbia that lives in your stomach, you know, and that there's this new budding
+
+[24:49] science, and I was just so interested that he likened that microbia to DNA in terms of importance for its effects on human health.
+
+[24:58] And I was wondering, is that true? I mean, is was that a real seminal piece that people? go ahead and toss this one to Harold. I know it's a crazy question, but No, because in fact, you read more and more about that in scientific journals these days as
+
+[25:14] well. And that's, I think, where Michael Paulan got the lead for this. My feeling is that we're just beginning to understand how important the gut microbes are and what to make of
+
+[25:27] them, and at the moment, what we kind of know is that people in different states of health have very different communities down there, but whether it's possible to change them quickly or over
+
+[25:40] time, by changes in diet, or whether changing them more drastically by taking little pills with lots and lots of is a good idea. We have no clue. I think we're still figuring that out. And also to say that it's as important as DNA. And put it this way, you can, for all intents and purposes, wipe out a good chunk of your gut microflora by intensive antibiotic regimes or like super
+
+[26:05] sickness, plus antibiotic regimes. I mean, I've gotten, like, I, this, it's not microfluora, but, you know, I, I had a situation once where I was so cleaned out that I was lactose intolerant
+
+[26:14] for like a week and a half because I had no enzymes left in my body. But fact of the matter is, you can reestablish those colonies. If I were to supply enough radiation to you, to destroy your DNA. Very difficult to reconstitute. Very, very, very difficult to reconstitute, right? Yeah, so let's leave DNA at the top of the heat, but maybe microbes are right up there. you know, just underneath. I mean, there are plenty of things that are completely necessary, but not as
+
+[26:42] critical from an everyday standpoint, right? You know? We've got a caller. Like, water. It's right up there with DNA. Hey, caller, you're on the air. Hey, dude. Hey, old this is Johnny Clark from Memphis, Tennessee. How are you doing? All right, how you doing? I'm doing good. I was looking for some advice on, um, the addition of mascarpone to cheesecake. Uh, I was working with £3 of cream cheese. uh £5 uh mascarpone, and anywhere from 2 to 3 eggs per pound of cheese. And sometimes when I cut through it, it, it appears broken.
+
+[27:27] Um, any advice on, you know, maybe Malta dexter, cornstarch, flour, addition, and sous
+
+[27:36] vide, time and temp. Yeah, well, I've never, mean, mean like, when you say sous vide, do you mean like in a, in a CVAP or something like that? I've never put a cheesecake in a bag, although I'm sure you could. There's no reason why you do it. Oh, I, yeah, I just bag it and search or let it, yeah, for... were doing it in the tubes, right? You were doing it in the tubes. No, I was just, well, I was just doing it in, uh, 3 or 4 small
+
+[28:02] bags, and after, um, like 2.5 hours, pull it out and pipe it into the
+
+[28:07] molds, the mulbs. Well, I would imagine mascarpone has a higher water content and the water in it is less bound than it would be in cream cheese.
+
+[28:18] wouldn't you think so, Harold? Yeah. And so I would guess that it would be a lot looser under all conditions. I mean, um, can you hang mascarpone to just firm it up a little bit? Uh, you probably could. What I don't know is, you know, how much you'd be left with, you know, would that be an economical thing to do? If it if it only leaks. That's where I was thinking, Tapia. Uh, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't use, I mean, if you're going to go to Maltodextrin. I mean, maltodextrin doesn't supply a lot of thickening power. You might want to go to an actual starch. You know what I mean? Something that's has a little more thickening power to it. I mean, multidextrin is more of a bulking agent, so that when you dry something back out again, you're going to have more bulk. I mean, I think that the addition of a starch to it to thicken it up, maybe. I mean, you can up your egg quantity a little bit, which is I think what they do in the Italian cheesecakes that are ricotta based, right? Don't they up the egg content in those things? I think that's right, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time. Yep. Do you know ratio on what they do for that? I don't. I don't. But, I mean, like the classic Italian style cheesecakes are using a much looser cheese without all the, you know, they're using
+
+[29:28] ricotta-based typically things, which are gonna be, they have a grainier texture. I happen to love them. I happen to love those styles of cheesecakes, but I don't make them myself, but they're typically much
+
+[29:39] grainier and I would imagine they're bound with a higher egg proportion. And they taste like they're bound with a higher egg proportion. So I would up your eggs. I would move to perhaps a starch, one that has a good thickening power, maybe one that doesn't require a complete boil to activate. So maybe something like potato that has a lot of swelling, but then it's not going to hold as much
+
+[29:57] eventually it might break. I don't know. I'd have to think about the stars that you're going to use. Um, but I would I would definitely add a starch to it. What do you think? Yeah, no, I agree. I also think that it's the kind of thing where you're just not going to know for sure without trying it. Yeah, I've done a few test runs and, uh, cornstarch. and AP flower, I'm just looking for any other star congestions as well. Hey, you can, you could, you uh, could use uh, to, to get around the problem of the temperature if you're doing it sous vide, because you might not be functionalizing the starch. You might want to use a pre-aglomerated. I mean, an agglomerated pre-cooked starch, like a, um, not ultra text, but ultra spurse. Yeah, one drop. Wonder could work, that's pre-cooked, but like ultra spurs or something like that. Because Wondra is still going to have all of the, it's going to have a more of a flowery note to it because it's flour, whereas the ultra
+
+[30:48] spurse is going to be more neutral. And you can pick, I think you can pick up ultra spurs from the guys at monitorspantry.com. Yeah. Give it a shot. Let us know what happens. What's the percentage of ultra spars? Jeez, I don't know. a lot depends on how much water you need to bind, right? Because it's the it's it's the percentage of ultra spurs compared to the free water that's available in the mascarpone, but I mean, I wouldn't guess
+
+[31:14] that you'd probably need to add more than a percent or two, right? I mean, because if it's almost set, right? Then you don't need to add that much. A lot depends on how much you need to bind up. You could also just cheat. You could just cheat and set the stuff as a gel. I mean, cheat. You know what I mean? Yeah, you know, uh, like use like, uh, I don't know, like make a fluid gel, uh, or any sort of gel, have it set up. You know, if you could do, you could do a, you could do like an iota carraginen or a kappa that will melt in
+
+[31:43] the, in the thing, you could pipe it while it's hot, it'll set into a gel and you're done. Very light gel. You know what I mean? And especially because there's dairy in there. You could use a very small percentage of carragina and have it set up pretty nicely. So you wouldn't use uh, carrot gain and nan ultrasars, right? I'd probably try one or the other to see how they work and see what the texture difference is, but might try that. Okay, I appreciate you. All right, good luck. have a good day. All right, you too. All right, we have a question in from Brian, regarding Mastarda. You like Mastarda? You're the Italian fruit-based content? Yeah, me too. I haven't had it in a long long time. Because no one else in my family, Jen likes it, my wife, but my kids, you know, are not big on it. You like that stuff, St us? I mean, the cherries and the pears and that kind of gelatinous, no men's land, just like floating around. Yeah, in a syrup, we like to call that like a syrup or a jelly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They make one from watermelon rinds that I really like. Um, but anyway, uh, Brian writes... meant to be eaten, is it? All the, oh, you don't need all the gel. You just eat the fruit and it... I put the stuff on bread with cheese. I just eat the whole damn thing, yeah. You, Harold? Yeah, yeah. It's condiment. Yeah, yeah. there you go. Hello, cooking issues team. Hope you guys and gals are staying cool. We are not. It is hot as hell. Not in the studio, but it's nasty out. Okay. After some research, I discovered that true mustard does not contain mustard powder or mustard seed, but mustard essential oil, which they call
+
+[33:08] senape in Italy. Senape, how do you pronounce that, Stas? Oh, thank you, Patrick. With the with the Italian. Uh, apparently, this is such strong stuff that only pharmacists in Italy sell it, uh, or Eshola from Studio Kitchen. uh, uh, Studio Kitchen
+
+[33:22] blog does use a Roto app to extract it from mustard oil. Do you have a source for this product or a substitute? What does Cesare or Mark say about this? I didn't have a chance to speak to them. Did you speak to Mark about this? Nope. Thanks. job. You got home late. Whatever, whatever. whatever. Okay, okay. Thanks again for your awesomeness. Brian. Okay, so, uh, Mustard Essential Oil is available on the internet's on
+
+[33:43] eBay from, uh, Nival, the company's Nival, N-I-V-A-L,
+
+[33:49] Pure Essential Mustard Oil. It's available on eBay and also from essential depot.com in Florida, but that stuff's expensive. Let me just say that there's 2 things. If you go to like an Indian, uh, Indian mart, like, uh, you know, like Kalustians here in the city or dual specialty shop in city, anyone is,
+
+[34:07] you can buy stuff called mustard oil. That's press, press mustard oil, and that stuff, it can be pungent or cannot be pungent. It's all labeled as not for human consumption because of, you know, it contains what is it? something I have it here on the thing somewhere. I can't... aroustic acid, acid. Yeah, a fatty acid that causes problems in mice, but apparently not in people, but we haven't gotten
+
+[34:28] around it. Right, yeah. I mean, cultures have been using it for 1000s of years internally and it hasn't seemed to be a problem, but we're worried about it. Yeah, can't have it. Yeah. But here's the bad news. Mustard oil in, because I've purchased it. Mustard oil in Indian stores, or I guess Korean, I guess they use it in Korea as well. Um, Bangladesh, a bunch of other places. It's just not that strong. It's just not, I mean, it's got some sort of mustard thing to it, but I once had a pure vial of the mustard essential oil that was given to me
+
+[35:02] by a Japanese gent, and that stuff is ridiculous. like 2 drops in like in in like your mashed potatoes and they're like completely mustard it up. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, this stuff's crazy because it's, it's, uh, distilled, but not
+
+[35:18] distilled like rotavap style with a bunch of water left over, like distilled, the oil floats up to the top. You take the super on the top of the stuff, and that's your mustard, essential oil. And it's almost, it's some, it's some, like, I don't know,
+
+[35:31] isothotocyanate, some sort of allium to be a sulfur derived thing of a jig. So it distills quite well, probably the same way that horseradish does, which distills like a demon. Uh, but, um, yeah, I would recommend, the stuff's really expensive, but it goes a long way. buy it. I would buy it. I'm thinking now of buying it. I don't know whether this one's any good. Have you ever bought it, Harold? No, I haven't. Yeah, I mean, people swear on Amazon, the best you're going to get because I looked for a while is mustard oil. like pressed mustard oil, not mustard essential oil, right? It's not the same. You have to like dump a whole boatload of that interior mustarda. your favorite kind of astardo? You like them all?
+
+[36:14] I think actually the pair. You know, the grit goes really nicely with the, with the heat, I think. Nice with a nice Pecorino. Doesn't Mark say that Gouldens is the best mustard ever made? I think you just said that today. Really? For real? Did you just make that up? No, it's in my book. And Marion Cunningham, who was James Beard's assistant, said that Hellman's is the best mayo. Why would you ever make a mayo? Nothing could ever taste better than almonds. So it's the thing that it was the essay was, don't make ketchup. unless it's really better than Heinz. If it's not better than Heinz, just also serve Heinz. Well, anyone who's listened to the backlog here knows that Nastasia doesn't care about different brands of ketchup, which is one of
+
+[36:57] the my main gripes with hers, that she doesn't see that there is possibly a difference between different brands of ketchup.
+
+[37:03] And I haven't tried the new fancy stuff yet from Portland. The fancy ketchup in Portland. However, Heinz, it makes a delicious ketchup. Let's just be clear on that that in what's your opinion on Heinz schedule? It's delicious, but there's somebody in San Francisco makes a nice one too, June Taylor. Yeah. June makes a nice ketchup. Yeah, yeah. It's different. You wouldn't mistake it for Hines, but it's delicious. Is it ketchup in like the 1820 of mustard? I mean, not mustard, mushroom-based ketchup or is it? No. No, it's tomato kips. Tomato-based, but with more of the spices showing. Yeah. You know what I'm about to get myself in trouble for? Because I always bust Nastasia for stuff that she doesn't like. But you know what? I actually, it's not that I don't like it, but I'm not a huge fan of, or I don't care about it. Here's something I don't care about. I don't care that much about the nuances of different barbecue sauces. I don't. I mean, I see that there are differences, but to me, they're all fundamentally ketchup,
+
+[38:01] molasses, and like vinegar and sugar and stuff, right? Am I wrong about this? No, I'd agree with you. Yeah. I care more about the base ketchup. Uh-huh. In the barbecue sauce. Although, uh, Paul Prudhome has an excellent recipe from the mid-1980s that uses a lot of ground up nuts and a barbecue sausage is pretty good.
+
+[38:22] Ground up nuts. Really good, actually. Yeah, pretty good. What kind of nuts? I don't remember because my mom used to make it all the time back in the day. I'm going to say it was... Cons, I guess. Probably. Yeah, although he probably subbed out for northerners when he was right. This is back when Paul Prudholm had just recently opened K-Polls in Louisiana and he was still famous for sticking really red hot peppers into liquor and calling them Cajun martinis and back before everyone had, you know, black and this, that and everything.
+
+[38:52] He came out with a cookbook early on that I think was pretty influential. Yeah, my mom used to cook out of all the time. So I have to admit, but you know, whatever. Speaking of old school, Christopher Milch writes in, because I guess because of the Sears all tours that I'm working on, and wants to know, if we've watched the old Julia Child episode where she goes on David Letterman, and they don't have equipment that
+
+[39:14] works, and so she has to, she was going to make a hamburger and melt the cheese with a torch, which the Sears all is great at, by the
+
+[39:20] way. Uh, instead has to make beef tartare, and David Letterman is being vicious to her the whole time. you seen this? No, but he's always vicious to the chefs. Yeah, I mean, but Julie Child, I mean, like, this is 1987. So she was probably, what, in her 70s, late 70s? Yeah. Yeah. And uh, he's just like ripping her up and down and she's like taking it completely as a good sport and as every bit as quick on her feet as
+
+[39:43] uh, Letterman is. She, like, uh, it's kind of when it, it's, I kind of wish that I had met her, that you may, you met her a couple times, right? Yeah, I did. I did. And had dinner with her once and felt and this was when she was in her
+
+[39:56] 80s, and afterwards felt just totally inadequate because she had read, you know, 10 books I hadn't read and seen 10 movies that I hadn't
+
+[40:06] seen and I just couldn't keep up. She was an amazing woman. Yeah, and a spy during World War II. Interesting, interesting character. I haven't seen that movie based on it. I haven't seen the movie. I don't know. Anyway. Jay Matthew Miller writes in about Arancello. you like Arancello? I am not a big Limoncello fan. Do you like Limoncello? Orangello being the orange-based variant of it? Every once in a while. It's sweet and that. My problem with it, it's lemon cello. And again I'm going to get in trouble now. is the episode where it's like, well, it's a little bit sometimes detergent from my taste. Anyway. They make orange cello in Italy. I mean, with using their red oranges or blood red oranges or something? I don't know. haven't had it over there. I've only been to the north of Italy. They don't play that game. Yeah, they do. Yeah, I haven't been south of Rome much to my, much to my chagrin. Okay, I've made some Calamandan, which you might out there also know as Calamansi. Uh, which is sold mostly green, but is, in fact, orange when it writens. Okay. I've made some calamundan arancello from calamundan peels. Of course you didn't, because what else would you make it fun? Grown in my yard. I soak the peels. The fruit have almost no pith, in 190 proof, ever clear for 7 days, then mixed with equal parts,
+
+[41:15] one to one simple syrup. See, that's sweet. That's sweet. The resulting product is pretty good. but a little bit stiff by itself next time I'll probably add more water. Anyway, I've been storing it in some mason jars and I get a dark orange ring where the surface of the liquid meets the glass of the mason jar just around the edge. It is really tiny but noticeable. What's going on here? Is this excess citrus oil? Yes. What can I do to prevent this from happening? Nah. On my next batch? My tree produces 3 times a year, I want to make enough to give his gifts, but the ring around the mason jar makes the end product less appealing. Thanks for your help. J. Matthew Miller. Yep, that's the oil coming out when you're diluting it because you can absorb more of that stuff into alcohol than you can under water. And that's it, right, Harold? I mean, that's what it is. Yeah, and thanks to all the sweetness, the density of the liquid is pretty high and the oil is that much lighter, and so it's going to pop up to the surface. Good call. So maybe making it a little less sweet. You can get around it. That's it, yeah, that's a good. I see. Again, I hadn't thought of that. Here's the things I thought of. Don't go and try to buy brominated vegetable oil, which is what everyone used to use back in the day to keep citrus oils and suspension and things like sodas.
+
+[42:19] See, what happens is they add bromine to vegetable oil. It's exceedingly heavy. It gets in close contact with the citrus oil and the average of it makes them kind of float around and makes it cloudy. That's how they made things like sunkist soda, you know, work. You're not, they don't use it anymore much. They use something that you also can't buy, which is sucrose, diacetate, hexoisobuterate, S-A-I-B, which is a sucro ester derivative, but also probably can't buy that. Here's what I suggest you do. Either reduce the sweetness. Try that. Also, put it, get one of those old school, like, uh, who makes some Lipton, sun tea things, one of those giant iced tea coolers that has a spigot at the bottom.
+
+[43:02] Put your product into it, your entire batch. Let it sit for a week and a half or more after you've diluted it. The ring will form around the top, then drain it from the bottom. Right? Brilliant. Brilliant. See, Harold's thinking about it from an actual kind of thinking standpoint. I'm just thinking the mechanics of what to get around it because that's that's therein lies the difference. Uh, okay, now we have a question in uh, from Will about sours, uh, whiskey sours. and zucchini. Word to Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe, and the new guy in the booth. I guess that's you, Eddie. How do you? Eddie. Yep. I've got 2 questions. hoping you can help me with. The 1st is the cocktail problem. I want to pre-batch whiskey sours for the 4th of July. I like mine with egg whites, and I make designs on the phone with various bitters and eye dropper bottles and a chopstick. I use simple syrup that has gum Arabic for a better mouthfeel and a strong rye for a better flavor. What I want to do is pre-mix and dilute the sour and then run in a blender with dry ice to chill for service and top with an egg white foam,
+
+[43:59] decorate, and serve. I've got a whisk that goes into a power drill for stick mixer like effects, egg white sanding gum, gum Arabic and nox gelatin, et cetera. How can I get a good phone without an ISI? I have not yet incorporated gelatin, but my efforts up to now have resulted in foam that is too stiff to decorate well with bitters and tends to break when added to the sour. I've seen many people online suggesting the cocktail foam should be its own fully realized beverage. I mean, yeah, I don't know about that. That compliments the underlying drink. Thats true. In normal sours, the foam is essentially fully flavored by the drink, modified by the approximately half teaspoon
+
+[44:28] of various bitters I decorate with. Do you have any suggestions, direction to take the flavors for this foam, looking for a direction to take my generally very tasty experimentation. Let's hit that before we go into the next thing. One, be very careful blending dry ice into something with a
+
+[44:44] blender because if you serve any chunks of dry ice to someone that they ingest, it can be extremely detrimental. That's one, two. When you blend dry ice into a product, you will get a very light petillon carbonation in
+
+[44:57] there and you have to make sure that that's not going to hurt the flavor of your whiskey sour. That's two. So I, in general, I am somewhat loath to chill with
+
+[45:08] dry ice and blenders, although I've seen plenty of people do it, but it just makes me very nervous and I'm not, what are your thoughts on that? I have no experience with it, but I take your point. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is, remember, as you say, a normal cocktail. Okay, so a normal cocktail with egg white in it, the thickening effect of the egg white is manifest
+
+[45:31] most visually by a foam on the surface. However, the body of the entire drink is changed by the protein addition. So you're not going to have the same drink by blending with dry. What you what you're going to be doing is making a slushy and then putting a foam on top, which could be delicious, by the
+
+[45:50] way. I mean, I would use liquid nitrogen instead and just get it slushed out. Because, but, but drinks that are slushy are so freaking cold, they're actually somewhat painful.
+
+[45:59] Whiskey flavored drinks actually taste best when they're not so cold that they're slushed out in my experience, right? You want them just when they start going clear after you chill in liquid nitrogen is when they start being good again. Otherwise, like, uh, they don't end up being balanced and anything too much more than slushy in it is literally painful. It's so cold. Uh, in terms of foams to put on the top, you know, um, Methocell
+
+[46:24] F50 makes a nice phone, but it's still pretty dense. Um, I have to think more about this. you might it might end up being shorter for you just to just to shake the dang things. Like pre-blend some egg whites and just shake it. I understand you're trying to do something different here. And what do you think, Harold? Any any feelings on the phone? I mean, I know that should be my kind of a thing. I mean, you could use ISI, uh, and then do like a really like a, like a lighter, a lighter foam, but I mean, the egg white foams are also somewhat fugitive, which is nice.
+
+[46:56] And most of the foams that are made, aren't, they're either have a very large bubble size or they're not so fugitive, but try
+
+[47:02] methacell F50 or VersaWhip, uh, under a percent. They make a really nice film that's quite stable and you could probably make a slushy and then like literally spatula of the foam and strike it off the top and then
+
+[47:13] draw a design it. What has Piper been using recently? Remember? He's been making some films recently for cocktails. He actually literally whipped egg whites, I think, and put it on top. Could do that too. Whipped egg whites. You could take egg white powder, hydrate it with some flavors, uh, and then whip it, uh, not with alcohol, though, but like whip it, and
+
+[47:34] then and then strike it off the top and draw with the bidders, right? That would work, right, Harold? Yeah. Yeah. Second question is about grilling vegetables. I enjoy really well caramelized zucchini or brown zucchini, I guess, unless
+
+[47:45] it's well, no, probably some sugar and zucchini. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, both. Both. Most people would say bordering on burnt. flavor that develops with a good garlic marinade and that mesquite smoke and the vegetable flavors is out of this world. Unfortunately, they end up very delicious, but a bit mushy. I'm wondering if some type of calcium slash pectin treatment might help here. I'm cooling with a raging grill, a cooking with a raging grill, and the poles right up under the food. It's charred my satisfaction about 2 minutes if that helps. Thanks very much for your great work. Looking forward to the Mofad puffer. I don't think the, I don't think you need to firm it, right? I think it's more of a water problem, right? That's what the mush is. I would I would par dehydrate the stuff. What do you think? Uh, that and maybe just chill it. You know, put put them in ice water so that when they go onto the grill. They're really cold and so the inside will just take that much longer to heat up. Oh, so you think he wants to keep it? See, I was thinking want it more chewy than, I mean, zucchini has too much freaking water in it, in my opinion. I don't really, I mean, I have issues with it, because it's got so much water in it. Yeah. And if you're going to char the outside in 2 minutes. There's no way to get the water out of the inside, right? So you have 2 choices. Either try to keep it raw on the inside or try to get rid of the water beforehand. Or, I mean, look, you could try a calcium bath that will firm it up a little bit, but that'll make it bitier, but it won't, won't change the fact that moisture is going to migrate from the inside of the zucchini to the outside of
+
+[49:08] the zucchini and ruin your crust. Well, except that's not what he's saying, right? He's saying that the crust is fine. It's just the inside's a little mushy. So, uh, I think maybe
+
+[49:21] the 1st thing I would try because it's very simple. Just put the zucchini and ice water for half an hour before they go on the grill, see if that takes care of it. If it doesn't, then take more drastic actions, but if it's just, you know, the matter of preventing the inside from getting quite so hot, that should take care of it.
+
+[49:41] Right. And what do you think about for dehydration, do the paper towels microwave thing? Yeah, yeah. Or, or, you know, I don't know how exactly he's presenting them,
+
+[49:54] but, you know, you could also cut them into slices and salt
+
+[49:58] them. All kinds of all kinds of things. yeah Yeah, yeah. Anything you would do for eggplant to get rid of moisture. You could probably do the zucchini to get one moisture, right? Okay. Adam writes in, here's a good one for you. You read this one yet? Adam writes in. Dear, Nastasia, Jack and Joe. My question is for Dave and for Harold, little did you know. What do you make of the recipe for fermented juice of mushrooms and oats in the
+
+[50:19] Favekin cookbook? If you haven't seen it, which I have not. The basic idea is steam salted mushrooms and grain. After cooling, combined with sourdough, sourdough starter overnight,
+
+[50:28] seal in a jar for 6 months, when you open it up, it should have a fleeting odor of peaches. That's the cookbook pros right there. The fresh juice doesn't last long, so Nilson, Magnus Nilson recommends allowing it to turn to vinegar or pasteurizing it. He describes the pasteurized practice being like soy sauce. He also stresses that anyone who attempts the recipe should not eat it until it's been analyzed by a lab to determine whether or not it's edible. The procedure is somewhat similar to mixed yeast bacteria fermentations of the Chinese yeast ball that McGee likes. Here you are right here to talk about it. But I've never read such about such a long sourdough fermentation or one that isn't cooked afterwards. It's strange, just what is happening, and what's your opinion on the food safety? Thanks for the thought. Well, I looked into Sandor Katz's book. I mean, I think, correct me when I'm wrong, I'm going to let you just take this for a minute, but the sourdough thing is just to kickstart the fermentation to get the pH low enough so that botulism doesn't grow first, right?
+
+[51:13] Isn't that what the deal is? And after that, it's going to take over on whatever it wants to do. Yeah, and the part of it that I don't understand is why do you have to seal it? I mean, because that would, you know, remove the issue of botulism bacteria anyway. Well, I mean, look, so the recipes for fermented mushrooms that I could get were, they were all pushed under the water to encourage anaerobic stuff after
+
+[51:40] their pH is dropped, right? I mean, lactic acid, stuff. Yeah. Um, sauerkraut kimchi style. Right, but then why do you have to seal it? Yeah, yeah. And and have it out of view. I mean, why not do it like a sauerkraut fermentation where you can kind of check on it, see how it's going, whether you've kept everything submerged or not, that kind of
+
+[52:03] thing. Also, I would, I don't think I would ever myself want to make a dish that I had to have a lab check before I could
+
+[52:11] eat it. I mean, that just sounds like legally. I mean, if you check the pH before you start the fermentation, then it should be everything should be copacetic. If it's acid enough, you won't have botulism. Yeah, acid and salt, I imagine there's salt in there as well. Yeah, but, I mean, again, I'd have to know the levels, but, I mean, but if it's tart enough, the botulism's not gonna, I mean, like that's essentially how pickles work. You know what I mean? non-acidified mushrooms are dangerous to keep for long periods. Time in the absence of oxygen. Yeah. That much we know. That's the classic thing to kill yourself with. Poorly canned non-acidified mushrooms. That's right. Right? All right. Really quickly. Andy writes in about Ikujime and Buttarga. Hey, Nastasia, I have a couple questions for you, Dave, and the cooking issues crew. I wrote in a year and a half ago about Ikigime spinal cord destruction, which is where, but for
+
+[53:08] the reason you don't know, You take fish, especially like pelagic fish, fish that swim around a lot. And when you kill them, you can increase the quality of their flesh by shoving a needle through the spinal cord to
+
+[53:18] disrupt it. And the theory being that you by destroying the spinal cord. You're preventing any sort of electrical messages from going to the muscles that happen regardless whether the brain is still present. Therefore, increasing the amount of ATP that remains in the
+
+[53:32] muscles, because it's not being used to respond to these errant electrical signals, and that therefore it takes longer to go into rigor mortis, and when it goes into a less strong rigor mortis,
+
+[53:41] when it comes out, the flesh is firmer and better. That's in a nutshell, the theory of what's going on. Okay. So he tested it for us. Okay, and I had always been interested why people don't do it on bluefish, and it's because I don't think in Japan they eat much bluefish, even though I think it's a delicious fish. you a bluefish fan? I love Bluefish. Delicious, right? Uh, okay. I wrote about Nikajime spinal cord destruction test on bluefish in Alabama. I'm heading back to Alabama next week and we'll be trying the test again, likely on a wider range of fish as well. After my trip last year, I read somewhere that one should only use iced
+
+[54:12] salt water or seawater as opposed to fresh. I was using fresh fraudder from the rinsing hose at the end of the pier, and the results were clearly still far superior to non
+
+[54:21] Ikejime spinal core destruction. Any thoughts on this? I will be, of course, trying it, but I may not have the capability to side by side assault versus fresh. Any other suggestions for tests that I could run while I'm down here? Well, the reason for salt is so that the heart keeps pumping and that you're not putting it into shock right away so that you can keep that
+
+[54:37] going. And also, you want to keep it relatively isotonic with the fish. So salt water is obviously the best call, but I don't really know what the effect will be. You know, do you have any? No idea. Yeah. And I don't have any suggestions right now for other tests you should run, but please just let us know what all your tests are because this stuff's fascinating to me. And I want to know how good bluefish is after it comes out of it. Because bluefish, everyone says it doesn't keep, but if you were to do spinal cord destruction, but don't fillet it now so
+
+[55:03] the oils aren't exposed to the oxygen, could it become a fish that keeps longer? I don't know. Uh, my 2nd question is about Botarga, which, you know, is salted, uh, cured row, typically from, uh, mullet, and what's the other one, the one that the, the, what's the other
+
+[55:17] one they make? Well, tuna in the Mediterranean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. In Alabama, we often go cast netting for mullet. I'm quite interested in making my own, but Target. It's really expensive here. Really freaking expensive here. Uh, Nastasia does not like Patargo. Yeah. Not sure if this is the right season, but I had a couple questions anyway. There seems to be a fair number of recipes, techniques out there and this seemed perhaps the best. Soak the row overnight in salt water solution, 10 grams of salt per one liter of water. By the way, the soaking is there just to leech out the blood and any sort of other strong flavors that are there. I don't think that's actually a cure step. Yeah, that's just what, one%? That's less than a 10th of a percent, right? No, yeah, 10 grams per one liter. One percent. That's roughly isotonic, right? It's just to not ruin it, not blow the eggs up, but soak the stuff and get it out. You don't want to soak it in pure water because then you might blow the eggs up because of osmotic pressure. Remove the solution and pat dry on paper towels, all good. Lay out fresh paper towel and tray, liberally sprinkle the salt. Okay. Place row on top and cover with more salt. So far, so good. Place this in the fridge, replace the paper towels daily, add more salt, right? So the cure is taking place at low temperature. After 3 or 4 days, the rose will firmed up. Use a skewer to poke a hole, and time with butchers twine, a long loop, hang the row in a cool place to drive for 10 to 14 days, or longer if desired. This seems like a good technique, but I wonder if there are other better ways. I would put them, I would put them in a curing chamber, but of course I won't have it in Alabama. I also wonder if cool dry place would cause case hardening. My thought is to salt them for a few days in the fridge, then put them on a rack or hang them outside in the sun to
+
+[56:47] drive them dry them. The air would be humid and hot and most likely breezy with enough salt. I'm not that worried about contamination, but should I be? Then I could take them home and put them in my curing chamber for longer drying and eventually backpack them for storage in the fridge. I would dip them in wax. That's the traditional way, not to backpack them, although backpacking will work. But dipping in wax is the traditional way. And pretty cool. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Okay, Andy, I got a treat for you. It's not Alabama, it's Florida. But if you go to the Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, or simply type this into your browser, solar drying of seafood products, colon
+
+[57:18] mullet row. They did a bunch of experiments, literally on the open air drying of mullet row to make
+
+[57:25] Botarga in the 70s in Florida, which is fairly similar to Alabama, and you can look at
+
+[57:30] it. And your main problem is actually not going to be case hardening, although they do mention it, I think, in the paper. Your main problem is going to be that unless it's fairly covered, you see, you need
+
+[57:39] to, the temperature of the mullet row needs to go above atmospheric temperature because humid is held.
+
+[57:46] As soon as it goes above atmospheric temperature, which it will from the sun hitting it, right? It will start getting water off. And so it doesn't matter how humid it is as long as it's hotter than the outside environment because then the vapor pressure's going to be there. However, it got so freaking hot. By the way, they used a word that I hadn't, I didn't know, insulation, meaning how much sun hits, not insulation, insulation, which is awesome.
+
+[58:08] Uh, but uh, the mullet roll that they were testing uh, that had uh, like a plastic covering like greenhouse, that let the uh, sun hit it, but had screens all around it, so air could
+
+[58:17] walk through, 150 Fahrenheit, that stuff got up to. hot enough to cook your huevos. Uh, but, uh, anyway, so go read that paper and that should give you some good uh, suggestions. Now, before they rip my microphone away from me, kick me off the air. Since Harold McGee is here, I want to talk about claustridium
+
+[58:34] perfringians and Rachel Dutton and these papers with salt risen bread that I promised I would talk about before. So you want to give us a little clue in there? Why don't you get us started? Because that was a few weeks ago, and that's not in the front of my head. So here's what happened. A number of years ago, on the radio show, someone asked me about salt risen bread, and I'd never done it before. So I made some as a test. And salt risen bread is an interesting, interesting because it's bacterially raised
+
+[59:04] product, and in fact, it's raised with an anaerobic bacteria, claustridium perfringens, which is a pathogen. Right? And in fact, certain strains of it do really nasty things like cause gas gangrene, which was a big problem in
+
+[59:18] the World War one. I guess probably even after, but that's when it 1st became a big deal, right? Yeah. So, anyway, so I made it and the bread had a very distinctive taste to it that I
+
+[59:31] remembered. Went to Africa. and tasted a cassava, like a dumpling that was made from cassava, cassava, as you may or may not know, is redded, so it's soaked for a long period and allowed to, and that's to get rid of
+
+[59:46] toxins in it, right? But it also goes through some sort of fermentation and picks up characteristic flavor. And when I tasted this, I said, oh, that tastes like salt, risen bread. I wonder whether it's custardium, uh, culsidrium,
+
+[59:58] custardium perfangium, same thing. And so Harold and I were hanging out, what was that, the World Science Universe or whatever it's called? right. World World Science Festival. Festival. Yeah, festival. And met up with Rachel Dutton, who is a microbiologist at
+
+[1:00:12] Harvard, studying various fermentation things. What's her actual field? What does she do for a living besides help chefs with that things? Well, she has a five-year postdoctoral fellowship, essentially, to kind of open up this whole subject to academic study, which it really hasn't been open to before.
+
+[1:00:29] Nice. I like that. Who's paying for that? Uh, I forget who the fellowship is from. Yeah. Because the problem is, is that usually work only gets done in food when there's money behind it, which is why most food science sucks so
+
+[1:00:43] hard. Right, yes. Yeah. So, so, well, the avenue she's taking is to, uh, uh, study cheeses in particular, but other fermented foods as model systems for understanding, um, microbial ecosystems, because these things generally cheeses, for example, you know, each cheese has a different set of microbes that ripens
+
+[1:01:05] it, and it tends to be 4 or 5 and it's relatively stable, and so understanding how all that works, uh, she feels will help us understand microbial life
+
+[1:01:16] in general. And that's the proposal that got funded. That good sale. I like that. Strong. Uh, strong. So anyway, so she found an article showing that in fact, Kassava Redding does indeed involve a clustridium, not
+
+[1:01:33] perfringens, but one that produces butyric acid. I mean, I can't pronounce butyrians, whatever it is. Oh, right. Yeah, butura... something or other. Anyway, it's there. So it turns out that, you know, this is, in fact, like half of how I ever accomplish anything is I taste something different. I put it away in my memory bank and then like years later, like something comes up. Is that how you work as well here? Yeah. That's right. Um, and then Harold, because then I said, well, I wonder whether or not the clustrudium in salt risen bread is, in fact, not for
+
+[1:02:05] French. I wonder whether it's this other one as well. And Harold found, and emailed to me, possibly the best article I've ever read in my life.
+
+[1:02:13] And I don't have it here, unfortunately, when it didn't get pasted into my thing, but it is from 1923. And you wanted, like, this, isn't that one of the coolest articles you ever read? It is, it is. They made salt risen bread from a traditional starter standpoint. And then they also made salt risen bread from a culture they had taken off of an injured gas gangrene patient in World War
+
+[1:02:40] one. So like some poor, some poor fella who, you know, in the trench got hit with something, developed gas gangrene, which they isolated that
+
+[1:02:49] strain, and he baked bread with it. And then ate it, presumably, because he said that, you know, he described the crumb texture
+
+[1:02:56] and, oh, it's good, you know, kind of, I think he ate it. And then, then, then, took the bread and recultured the bacteria from the bread to prove that the spores had not, because it remember folks, of course, stadium was spore forming, and was, in fact, able to culture it. And injected
+
+[1:03:13] into guinea pigs and noticed that the salt risen bread clustridium was active, but not as virulent as the one that was developed from the gas gangrene
+
+[1:03:22] patient. So it is, it's fantastic stuff and then specifically said it wasn't this other one because it had a different kind of fermentation. Fantastic paper. Yeah, yeah. something you could never do today, right? No, walk up and just inject that into guinea pigs and eat, eat, like bake bread with uh,
+
+[1:03:39] baked bread with gas gang green stuff? No. No, that's pretty cool, right? It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, good paper. And anyway, so but then later work, later work, including someone who has a, she has a salt risen
+
+[1:03:53] bread blog, Susan Brown, they did some paper where there's been never been a case. They don't really, I think, in the recent research, prove that it can't cause disease. They just show there has never been a case of disease from clustradium
+
+[1:04:06] prefringe insault rhythm bread. But what do you think about, are they, would you have concerns making that in your kitchen? No, no, I've done it a couple of times and now I'm going to do it again because you've, you know, raised this whole
+
+[1:04:16] thing for me again, but it is fascinating for exactly that reason.
+
+[1:04:21] You take, uh, foodstuffs. I mean, milk and cornmeal and things like that. And kind of intentionally let it rot, right, for a day, and then make bread with that. And you do end up with this really interesting, some people in my own family found it off-putting, but I found
+
+[1:04:42] it really interesting flavor. Yeah, I like it. And it rises. It's, um, yeah. Oh, Redding is very interesting. So, Redding, you do it for cassava. By the way, Reading, literally, you just take the stuff and you throw it in a big vat of water and you let it sit for a couple of days.
+
+[1:04:56] And in West Africa, it doesn't take very long for it to do its thing because it's hot as hell. But, you know, Harold, for now, for several years, been telling you about Reddit Amarant stocks. Yeah, yeah, which is how you make stinky tofu in China. You you let vegetable kind of waste vegetable materials. Amaranth leaves are delicious, but the stalks are so tough that they're inedible. You throw them in water and just water, no salt, so you're not doing
+
+[1:05:25] a lactic acid fermentation, and other things take over and you end up with something that's really stinky.
+
+[1:05:30] Uh, and then you can either serve that or you can put tofu in that same vat of stuff for a few days until it soaks up those flavors and that's how you get sticky
+
+[1:05:42] tofu. As a microbiology, that been studied yet? Not to my knowledge, not in, you know, English accessible materials. Well, more work to do. Harold, thanks so much for coming on the air. We love having you. Anytime you're in New York, please come by and see us. Cooking issues. Oh, wait. By the way, thank you for the bacon, Matt, and the bacon Band-Aids, whoever you are. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:06:09] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:06:39] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Cooking issues! Go!
+
+[0:57] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues, this is Gabe Arnold, your host of cookies, just called you from the coast, Florida, where I'm down here in Florida for my Uncle Luke's 100th birthday party. How you guys all doing over there? Who I got in the studio with me today? Peter and Anastasia. Hey, Stas, how you doing? Okay, how are you? All right, what you doing? Uh, went to the beach. Yeah? Which beach? Westport yesterday. I mean, Sunday. Westport, Connecticut? Yeah. Westport, Connecticut? People actually go to Westport, Connecticut for vacation? It was just a day trip on Sunday. Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, I've been down here, uh, waiting for my
+
+[1:47] onkaloop to term 100, which we did today, right after the radio show. I'm going over there for the actual party. Uh, Peterson. And uh, What did you say? Peter's here. up, Dave? Hey, Peter, how you doing? I'm right, man. Yeah? How much do you hear the weedwhacker going on in the background? zero. Oh, nice. The crazy burnouts that run this joint that I'm at in Tacomas, uh, chance to get the internet working, but they do have a weed whacker, a nice gas powered weed whack. So, uh, Peter, why don't we talk about the state of the Mosad Kickstarter before we get into the question. So those of you that don't know and I'll listen to this. Moped, the museum also didn't drink, has a Kickstarter up now called boom, where we're trying to get our puffing gun. Puffing gun is the old way they used to make puff cereals by heating, uh, blames, uh, up to, uh, well, not tremendous, but high pressures and temperatures, about 180
+
+[2:37] psi, then releasing that pressure suddenly and having all the moisture inside. instantly evaporate and bang up the up the grains very uniformly, but apparently it works on things other than grains that we're going to try out
+
+[2:47] things like and chips, things like uh peppercorns. Um, anyway, we have a kickstarter going to try and raise the
+
+[2:55] fund in a crowd sort of manner to, uh, build out
+
+[2:59] an actual exhibit that we can travel around with. Uh the Kickstarter now. We need about 80 grand to do it, and right now we're about 34 grand. So what I need everyone to do. It's not just, because I know a lot of our listeners have already donated, but I need uh, people to go and find their friends and relatives and other people uh, like mine individuals to come on the kicker and back
+
+[3:22] it, and it's not just to give away your money and you get nothing. We're talking awesome t-shirts, awesome tote bags, uh parties. I mean, if you have a lot of cash jangling around in your pocket. Uh, we'll make a custom cereal for you. But the idea here is that, um, we
+
+[3:39] wanted crowd sources to show that we have a broad level of sports. So it's very important that you go and you find people to go and back us if they just want a t-shirt or anything else, but, uh, that's my feeling about it.
+
+[3:52] We have about 10 days left on the Kickstarter. We need to gear into high gear now after the holidays are over. Peter, what are your thoughts on it? By the way, Peter Kim is the, uh, executive director of the museum of food and drink, uh,
+
+[4:04] the, the leader of the project, I guess. Peter, go ahead. Yeah, so 1st of all, if you want to check out our Kickstarter, you can go to boom.mofad.org, that's
+
+[4:13] BOOM.mofad, m-O-F-A-D.org. Uh, yeah, I think Dave really, you did a great job encapsulating it. I mean, we're really excited about this Kickstarter. It, not just about kickstarting one exhibit, but it's actually about kickstarting the whole museum. You know, the plan for MoFAD right now is to challenge the traditional museum model and actually create a mobile pop-up
+
+[4:35] museum. And this will be our 1st exhibit. And so, you know, as Dave said, what we're trying to do is drum up a lot of public
+
+[4:42] support, and I think this will open up a lot of doors for us and help us get, you know, propel us towards our ultimate goal of opening up a brick and mortar museum filled with exhibits like this.
+
+[4:51] So we really, really need your help. I mean, this is like a, it's hard to overstate this, but it's a labor of love. We have a lot of volunteers working on this. I was working until like 3 AM last night, woke up at 5 this morning, got right back up to work on it. We're pushing hard on this because we believe in this. We really think it's the time is right to create a food museum that, you know, encourages people, inspires people to think a lot about, you know, the choices that they make and how food connects to the world
+
+[5:22] around us. Right, let me stress most museums. But most museums start, right? They start with one of 2 things. either a large collection or a very rich person, right? Very few museums are trying to start the way we're trying to start, which is as an idea, uh, you know, and then getting the funding
+
+[5:41] from uh, a broad range of support that wasn't already present. So that's why it's very important that everyone go out and find their, find their buddies.
+
+[5:53] And by the way, just because you don't live in New York City, don't think we aren't going to bring the puffing gun to a neighborhood near you at some point. The idea is, uh, after we get it funded and we test out, uh,
+
+[6:03] the, the gun in New York to do a traveling roadshow to, uh, to other areas of the country. Uh, we probably can't take internationally at this point, but uh, we are, you know, taking it to other parts of the country, true or false, Peter. Absolutely true. And I wouldn't actually rule out international just yet. But, you know, after the puffing gun, we have just, you know, you know how Dave's brain works. We've got about a million.5 ideas for the next pop-up exhibits. And after we create a few of these, you know, we're going to be able to take those wherever we can drive them. And that's that's really exciting that we're not going to have to just be stuck in one place. Yeah, and you should go and check out our video anyway. We have an incredible cavalcade of, uh, awesome smart and famous people, uh, filling out for us on the, uh, on the video. So go check it out. Um, anyway, we'll probably harpen that a couple more times. Yeah, so, uh, boom.mofad.org, B-O-M.mofad, M-O-Fad.org. Let me hit a few of the questions we have in here. One, hey, cookie issues crew. I'm trying to help my pops impart Thai basil into his cooking. Fresh and finishing applications aren't doing the trick for him. I've read that you can freeze Thai basil and break it up before laying it under a protein that you are cooking. He also wanted to explore getting a mortar and pestle to release the oils or infuse cooking oil with it. Can you speak to the scientific aspect of working with more delicate herbs from maximum flavor? Thanks so much. Billy Rose Patterson, the manager of Alamo, Draft House Cinema, and Yonkers. I've been to Yonkers in a long time. Drive through Yonkers because it's on the way to my mom's house and goes up north of the city, but haven't stopped by the Yonkers in a long time. Peter, you ever hang out in Yonkers? I've never been, always been fascinated by the name, though. Well, Yonkers, you know, Yonkers, aside from being kind of the 1st city on the, on the, you know, on the left-hand side is to travel north, uh, up, up there, uh, and the
+
+[7:49] childhood normal, uh, one of my sculpture mentors, John Kessler. Uh, you know, we always heard like, you know, Yanshu's raceway. That's right. I think the monster Trunks, Trunks could go. So like we, when I was growing up listening to monster, monster, monster truck, those guys were all in Yonkers, nobody ever took me to go ski. sad, right? sad. Have you ever seen a demolition derby, Dave? I have not been to a demolition derby, but I've always wanted to go to a demolition derby and I've also always wanted to go to a figurate racing competition. You know, figure 8 racing? Yeah, where they like, they, they race into figure 8 and they smash in the middle. amazing stuff. Great. I mean, crazy. I can't believe they did that. whatever, that's, that's now we're, you know, they do that now. they have figure 8 racing with school buses. were you aware of this? Oh my god. Yes, it's sick, dude. It's like decommissioned school buses and they probably fill the sides of it with concrete and stuff so they can keep going for a long time and then the school buses are going as fast as they can around this tiny figure
+
+[8:41] 8 track without flipping over and then occasionally smashing into each other. I mean, I can't think of much cooler than that, except for maybe Mofad's puffing done. Nice, sweet boom. All right. So the issue with Thai basil. and I think you're hitting the nail on the head. Thai Basil is an extremely fragile herb. Now, Thai basil, for those of you that don't use it, is, uh, it's akin to, uh, you know, kind of the globe, Italian basil. It's more common here in the US, but it has, um,
+
+[9:09] has, it's, I, I like it quite a lot. It's not really used for the same applications. It has a bit of an anis note, but if you're not a friend of anis flavored things. Don't let that put you off. It's not like overpowering or like a pastise kind of thing, but it has a definite anise flavored note. Uh, and it's what we use at the bar for our Thai basil daiquiries. I like it a lot. I think it's very good, by the way, in drink applications, but the problem with Thai basil, uh, even as opposed to regular globe basil, which is the
+
+[9:39] Italian one that we know are more used to, uh, is extremely fragile. It goes, it goes off very, very quickly. And by that. I mean, it turns black and they, enzymes in it are very, uh, very fast, almost as fast as, as they are in, in mint and turning the leaves kind of black. And so it's difficult to do things with them, uh, and have them stay fresh for as long, uh, as you would with, uh,
+
+[10:01] with, um, something like even with regular basil, which turns black very quickly as well. So, they, you know, the problem is, is that anything is gonna ability it, for instance, freezing it, if you freeze Thai basil, when it's fall, as soon as it's fall, it'll turn black, because the freezing is going to rupture the
+
+[10:15] shells, in the uh, rupture some of the shells and ice crystals. And then when it thaws out, polyphenal oxidase, uh, enzymes in it will instantly go to work and turn the sucker swampy and black. So if you were going to do some, like, 11 thing you can do. is to, um, you can, you know, I've never dried Thai basil. So I'm kind of talking out of the, out of the wrong side of my body at this point, but uh, I'm sure you could dry it in the same way that they dry herbs, perhaps in
+
+[10:42] the microwave. I never tried it. Or, and it's not so good. If you were going to freeze it, you could blanch them. The problem is if you blanch them, which kills the enzymes, you definitely change the flavor and you lose a lot of that freshness. If you freeze them very quickly, and then never let them thaw again, and then blend them
+
+[10:58] into something that doesn't have a lot of oxygen, you might be able to get around, uh, to get around the problem
+
+[11:03] of it browning. But it really is, uh, just a kind of a delicate, um, a delicate herb that kind of needs a little bit of care to
+
+[11:12] work now. You can cook with it. It's fine. If you want that fresh, I mean, it's great. I shouldn't say fine, it's great. I, I, besides, you ever cook with it, or Peter, you ever cook with Thai basil? No. All the time. I love it. Yeah, right. I mean, you can, you can cook with it, like you can cook with any basil, but if you want that fresh flavor, it's very hard to do anything too.
+
+[11:30] That, why we go through all the trouble of freezing with liquid nitrogen, and, and, you know, blending it with alcohol, which kills the, kills the polyphenol oxidase.
+
+[11:38] Now, uh, like I say, if you freeze it, then if you're going to, um, if you're going to, uh, blend it into something like sauce and water pests or pests on oil, you might want to sprinkle a little ascorbic acid on it before you do that to try and inhibit the browning that's going to happen almost instantly as it falls out, uh, or you, you might try, uh, muddling it with a little bit of super
+
+[11:57] high proof ethanol to keep it green, uh, before you uh, incorporate the oil and whatnot. But just remember, if it freezes and then thaws, as soon as it thaws out, it's going to turn black, unless you prevent it by blanching, which kills the, not kills the fresh flavor, it alters it, or um, or hit it with some sort of antioxidant, or something that uh, inactivates the enzymes, like high
+
+[12:19] prucuscanol, right there. That makes sense guys? Yep. All right, cool. Dave Nastasia, Joe Jack at all, which I guess includes Peter today. I purchased a small deep fryer late last year and regrettably haven't used it that much. That is regrettable to have a deep fat fryer, not use it, although I will say that small deep fryers are nowhere near as awesome. I mean, like they're not even in the same league of awesome as, uh, as commercial deep fat
+
+[12:44] fryers. However, the summer after I graduated from college. I did only 3 things. I watched daytime TV, including Regis and Kelly all the way through up to General Hospital soap operas. I watched the whole, the whole thing, uh, and, uh, worked on my 76 Bonneville, which required a lot of bondo work, and spray fitting
+
+[13:02] in gold and whatnot. And I, uh, deep fried, uh, French fries and uh, habanero chili rienos in
+
+[13:10] my uh, little deep, deep fryer fried Eddie. So, they do work. Anyway, I purchased a small deep fire light last year. We haven't used it that much. 4 months ago, I left the oil in it last time I used it after skating out the solids. You got to be careful, you want to cover it, so, you know, light doesn't get to it, and um, the problem, one of the problems with small
+
+[13:28] fryers and storing oil in them for long periods of time, is that they have a poorer surface area to volume ratio, and so it's the surface area of oxygen, uh, transfer to
+
+[13:38] volume that's kind of, uh, determine how fast uh, the oil oxidizism goes rancid on you. So they're not really ideal in that sense because that was fairly large surface area. Anyway. Uh, okay, so after this community, 3 months ago, I spooned in some solidified bacon fat,
+
+[13:52] making it was a clever way to store it, uh, and I would deep fry something and get a great smoky bacon flavor in the next week or so.
+
+[13:58] Three months later, the bacon fat and oil are still in the deep fryer. Question, is it okay to fry chicken with this oil bacon fat combo for the 4th of July or not? Well, I'm a little late to help you on that. But anyway, I understand possible grand acidity of bacon bits from bacon grease could create a flavor issue, but if I bring it up to 350, are there any potential health issues, we're trying some fried bread, uh, to check for
+
+[14:16] acidity. Uh, thanks, Tommy Bishop, YSL VA. Uh, I don't, uh, Westville, VA. I don't think it's, uh, I, I can't think of any major health problems, but the issue with bacon Greece in general. I mean, I save it, but it goes off pretty quickly because remember, there's a lot of salt in uh
+
+[14:32] bacon, and the salt is, you know, it's really going to um, increase the rate, especially because bacon grease is usually heated to a very high temperature when you're cooking the
+
+[14:41] bacon, so you're starting to break down the fats there. You have salt in it, which is starting to break down the fat. And so in general, bacon grease isn't your most stable of fats. Uh, that said, you know, that's not going to kill you, they eat it. It's just a question of is it still going to taste good, right? What do you think, guys? I think that's, uh. Anyone, anyone, any thoughts and opinions? Okay. So, uh, that person's probably already done this or hasn't done
+
+[15:09] it, so. I guess we could just ask the person who asked the question because they probably tried it. Well, but again, you know, Tommy is pointing out my favorite test for frying oils is putting a cube of bread into them, frying
+
+[15:25] them, and then tasting the bread to see whether or not it has a, you know, whether it tastes like crap, because bread's very neutral, red absorbs a lot of oil, and then you can get a real feel for kind of what's going on with
+
+[15:37] the, uh, with the bread. So that's a good way of doing it. Uh, but yeah, it's not. I mean, it's not going to kill you. I mean, there are probably people who say that they, they, you know, the free fatty acids aren't good for you and all the other stuff, but I don't know that I'm a real believer and I haven't seen any data that says that, you know, you're going to substantially shorten your lifespan by
+
+[15:54] uh having a little bit of uh bacon grease. It gone a little bit over the hill. You know? Hey Dave, what's the what's the lifespan of the oil in your massive fryer? Very long. So, if you, so, like, oil, there's a couple of things, like, so I have a £35 deep fryer that takes about 6 gallons of oil, uh, about 5.5 , 6 gallons of oil, and uh, it's stored
+
+[16:16] very, in a very tall format. Uh, and additionally, you know, because deep fryers are tall and have a fairly small surface area for how deep they are. And the other thing about uh, and so that right there for storage is uh kind of ideal. The other great thing about, um, commercial deep fryers that use tubes, called tube fryers, is that, uh, the oil at the bottom stays relatively cool, and uh, also particles that come
+
+[16:42] off of your food and you're frying sink to the bottom into relatively cooler oil, instead of in traditional stovetop frying, where the particles hit the bottom of the pan, which is the hottest part of the
+
+[16:52] pan. In addition, the surface area of heating at tube fryer is so high that, uh, it doesn't overheat the oil too much because, um, it has such a large surface area for transfer. So it keeps the oil at a much more stable temperature, and stability of temperature is much better for uh, for oil stability over time. You don't overheat it to get to the temperature you're going to cook, and therefore that greatly enhances the uh, the length of time the oil lasts. It has a smaller surface area on top, so that greatly increases the length of time that it will last. And uh, the burnt particles are kept at the bottom while you're fine, which greatly increases. So all in all, uh, just much, much, much, much, much, much better. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, okay. So, uh, hey, Dave, Nastasia, at all from Timothy. Uh, I came across this video of a guy making crepes in
+
+[17:46] Kowloon Wall City. I think it's pronounced Calum. It's in Hong Kong. Any idea what's going on? It's YouTube video. Now, I had no idea what Cal's in World City is. Have you guys heard of this before? I looked it up. You guys heard of this? No, no. So Calhoun Wall City, when, um, when the, uh, the British, uh, I don't really even know how
+
+[18:05] they uh, got Hong Kong in the 1st place through some form of coercion or whatnot, but when they gained control of Hong Kong, uh, in the early, uh, in the early 1800s or in the early mid 1800s, uh, China maintained control of certain areas of Hong Kong, including uh, parts of uh,
+
+[18:22] Towhoun, where they had a fort, so they could see what the Brits were going to, were going to do. Uh, in the late 1800s when the Brits, uh, I guess, decided to, uh, alter the deal, as Starth Vader would say. Uh, they, uh, they took over control of Calhoun, uh, the walled city of the fort, and then didn't do much with it, and it stayed relatively
+
+[18:45] lawless. It also stayed relatively unpopulated until after World War
+
+[18:48] II, uh, and uh, the fall of uh, mainland China. It also had a big influx during the Japanese occupation in World War II. And then after World War II, after the, you know, the, uh, communist takeover of mainland China, it just got swamps of people and still maintain no laws. So until the, and then it just got kind of crazier and crazier till at one point in this little 6 acre place, 30,000 people were
+
+[19:12] living, with no law, and literally no law, they accept the triads, which, you know, the, the,
+
+[19:19] the kind of their mafia over there. And so, uh, it was just insane. If you see pictures of it, it's like no light made it down into the bottom of it because people would just build kind of illegal walkways. People would bring in illegal electricity. It was so crazy. It was like free for all like Mad Max kind of thing. What do you say? Or like 5 points. Yeah, right. kind of like five, kind of like 5 points. And much like 5 points, which was incredibly vilified in the press at the time. Uh, the vast majority of people who uh, 5 points was the big gang area in uh, downtown New York, uh, in the uh, 1800s, much like that, uh, the majority of people who
+
+[19:58] live there were just living kind of normal lives. And not, you know, and just trying to, to, you know, make a living and do whatever they needed to do.
+
+[20:05] Um, so, anyways, the, um, I need to move again because now there is a lease blower. Uh, so anyways, what, what happened uh, is that they kicked everyone out. Uh, and then they tore the whole thing down. The same thing you said to the 5 points actually. So it's almost an exact analog to 5 points. But there's a, a German documentary of it that was done prior to when they tore it down in the 90s and they evicted everyone, I guess, in the late 80s. And in that video, uh, you can see people just going about their daily business, like making noodles and
+
+[20:40] making the, what isn't really crepes, which is what's point out in the video. But uh, spring roll wrappers. And spring roll wrappers have a very interesting manufactured technique because what you do, instead of making a standard crepe dough. So in a standard crate, though, you do a very high hydration dough. Uh, like one to one hydration of a liquid to flour. You let it rest and hydrate and let all the air bubbles come out, and then you pour it on a very hot griddle, uh, with oil. you put oil down the griddle. You pour down a very hot riddle, and you use a little kind of, what looks like a spatula rate. I forget what the term in French is. It's like rap play or something like that. Peter will help me out because his French is much better than mine. Uh, and you, you swirl it around into a crepe. You let the bottom cook and you flip it. Spring roll, by contrast, is a much less hydrated dough. It's, I mean, I don't really know what they use, but it looks like maybe 75% hydration or maybe a little higher and sticks, sticks to your
+
+[21:39] hand, and you need it to build up the gluten, use a high gluten flour, you need it to build up the gluten, and then you let it
+
+[21:45] rest for an hour or so before you use it to let it hydrate. And then you get a fairly low temperature griddle, right? And I don't think you want to oil it. I'm not sure. don't think you want to oil it. And you grab the dough in your hand, and you have this lump of sticky dough in your hand, and you mash it onto the griddle, and you wipe it around in like
+
+[22:03] a, wax on, wax off movements for those of you that have seen karate kid, uh, and then you pull the dough off, and just a thin layer sticks on your
+
+[22:11] griddle, uh, and then after a couple moments, it dries out, because it's very thin, and after it dries out, it self releases from the griddle in the same way that, uh, in the same way that rice, uh, will release off the
+
+[22:24] sides of a pan if you let it dry overnight. But you don't want to turn brown. You're not browning it, right? So it's very low temperature, probably somewhere in the 200th Fahrenheit in that range, and he's making spring roll
+
+[22:35] wrap after spring roll wrap. But it's a pretty cool technique. Um, I don't think I've tried it. I can't remember whether I've ever tried it. If I have tried it, it would have been decades ago, but it is a cool technique. You ever tried that either, you guys? No. Nope. You like yourself spring roll? Yeah. Loving my spring rolls. Yeah, everyone likes spring roll, right? I like a big roll is wrapped in lettuce. The combo is good for me. Uh, that's more of a lettuce roll, isn't it? Well, it's a role within a roll. Oh, you mean you like an actual spring roll with the wrapper and then wrap again in lettuce? Yeah. Is that because of the whole, like, you know, Korean thing? You have to wrap everything in lettuce, you're not happy? I can pretty much take anything wrap it in lettuce and love it. But I really like I really like the contrast of the crispy spring roll and then with the fresh lettuce.
+
+[23:23] It makes me happy. No, no, you would prefer, but, oh, wait, were you like a fried spring roll or you like them like still kind of, you like them fried, like egg roll style, fried hard? Wrapped in lettuce? or you like them sauce, wrapped in lettuce? In that case, fried. Fried and wrapped in lettuce. You should do a, uh, you should fry it, you should fry it, then wrap it, in
+
+[23:43] an unfried one, and then wrap it in lettuce. See how many layers you can go. By the way, this might be a good point to bring this up. Uh, I don't know if we brought it up before. I'll see whether Nastasia and uh Peter and uh the guys in the booth agree with me. I hate rap. A man. I hate raps, for as much as I hate like, uh, spring roll, as much as I love
+
+[24:05] tortillas of almost any variety, although I do prefer corn from most applications, man, wraps suck. They really are bad. Everyone needs to walk around, and then every once in a while, like, think about the fact that raps are so popular here in the US, and they're really just, they're
+
+[24:22] just viciously bad. They're horribly, horribly bad. I mean, if you think about this. Uh, You're taking an undercooked flour tortilla, which if you were going to do any reasonable kind of cooking, you would reheat on a griddle to kind of make it taste more cooked, right?
+
+[24:42] And then serve it right away in some sort of cooked thing. And instead, you're wrapping it with a bunch of other dense wet crap.
+
+[24:49] Right? And then wrapping it in such a way, almost invariably that you have too much, uh, kind of
+
+[24:56] floury mess on one section and not enough in another, and serving to someone as though something they should eat. Have we discussed this before, Nastasia on the air? I think so. And that way, well, it kind of bears repeating. Peter, we've never discussed it before. What do you think? Am I on space here with my with my rap hatred? No, my soul just crumbled away a little bit, just imagining biting into one of those cold, mealy, crumbly tortilla things, like it's, yeah. Yeah, so somewhere at some point, right? And I can't remember when the rap thing happened, but I remember before there were raps, right? So like, you know, when I was a little boy, we didn't get wraps. That didn't happen, right? That was not, that was not on the race. So some point between the late 70s and the mid 90s. Some person who hates food, some person who absolutely detests all that is good in life, came up with this kind of horrible, rancid
+
+[25:54] idea, has perpetrated it on 100s of 1000000s of us, because we've all been served one of these nonsense
+
+[25:59] wraps before. And I think, you know, right after you back the most add Kickstarter, go tell us for not to buy raps. You know what I'm saying? I will say this. You know, a lot of times, so back when I was working as an attorney, you know, we'd have these business meetings, right? And there'd be catered food. And I'll be honest, a lot of times I opted for the rap over the sandwich simply because I didn't want to make a mess and it was just easier to eat. I still didn't like it. I still prefer a sandwich. I don't necessarily think that this was a crime against humanity as you're suggesting, but, you know, it's, there is something to be said about how it keeps your hands clean. All right. Well, okay, so let's let's go on this for a second. That's true. However, here's here's the thing. Most a poorly made sandwich. Right, is still better than a well-made wrap, right? And but the problem is, is that it's very hard to actually construct a sandwich for best taste and also best eatability.
+
+[26:59] You know what I mean? So most people, they'll overstuff the hell out of their sandwich, and then it tastes good because the fillings almost always
+
+[27:07] taste good, but it's completely uneatable in a kind of a friendly, or not friendly, but the public or business environment because the stuff's
+
+[27:14] going to be falling all over your plate all the time. The flip side is people that manufacture sandwiches for either maximum eatability or their maximum crazy
+
+[27:22] hairbrained ideas of health, right? Like, those guys, when they, when they make the sandwich, it's like horribly
+
+[27:28] dry. And, like, a dry sandwich makes me almost as sad. Maybe in some situations more sad because it could be so much better with a simple addition of the condiment like mayonnaise or oil as a wrap. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think that comes out as a dry sandwich. How sad are these 2 things? A dry sandwich or an undersalted sandwich where they, like someone made the chicken salad, they didn't put enough salt in the chicken salad, and it's also a little too dry, and they pack it on that like horribly bad, badly made wheat bread that they think is good for
+
+[28:00] you, but it's not because it tastes bad. And there's like the bread to filling combo is just way off. I mean, I think the solution really for this is to have tea sandwiches at all business meetings.
+
+[28:10] I love tea sandwiches. tea sandwiches are good. That's a good business meeting compromise. But I think, you know, the other issue with bad sandwiches, you know, there's so much bad, like so much of the kind of things that are put out for people to eat are
+
+[28:24] horrible. I mean, I don't know what got me into this move, but here's another one for you. When you wrap a breadstick with uh, with ham, right? You don't realize that uh, especially the thin breadsticks, like their ability to stay crisp is extremely minimal because any amount of water at all,
+
+[28:42] uh, migrates out of that ham into that breadstick. And now you have like a mealy gooey breadstick, and then you have to try and extricate this ham from around
+
+[28:51] it, and it, it, it's another, people need to think about moisture migration and putting different products
+
+[28:58] together. They're going to sit around for a long time when they're worrying about catering things like business lunches. What are your thoughts on the breadsticks and ham? Just moisture migration ignorance. Yeah, agree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think I would describe that with myself. in this
+
+[29:17] episode because kind of like, I'm just throwing a bunch of hate downs for no reason. I mean, I agree with you in spirit, you know? I'm right there with you. Just perhaps the, uh, the, uh, magnitude is, uh, is you're further out there than me. Well, I also noticed that, uh, and what you're telling me is that at the business meeting, you're too much of a sissy to take the sandwich that you
+
+[29:39] like and instead taking the rep. Oh, the hates being directed this way now. Yeah. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, if you ever come work, anyone who's listening, if you ever come work with us, you got to realize there's going to be a certain amount of hate down getting thrown around at all
+
+[29:54] times. We just can't, we can't, we can't help a little bit of the friendly hate down, uh, here, uh,
+
+[29:59] uh, either at MoFAD, uh, or booker into actual cooking issues. Anyway. Uh, we got a, did you stick a, a commercial break? Sure. Okay. Here's a big coming back. PH.
+
+[30:29] This one, it's called Fish Is, Fish Is Vodka. By the meatballers, on cooking issues.
+
+[31:04] This is Chris Young, co author of Modernist Cuisine. Together with photographer Ryan Matthew Smith and Chef Grant Crilley, we've created something exciting and new at chefsteps.com. Each day in our kitchen at Seattle's Pike Place Market. We're working on new recipes, as well as updating classic ones that we love. And we're always looking for new techniques that make the impossible possible.
+
+[31:31] At chefsteps.com, we publish it all online with detailed step-by-step demonstrations, as well as explanations of the science that answers the why behind the how in the kitchen.
+
+[31:43] And through our forum, you can engage with our team as well as a friendly community of curious cooks from around the world. If you're interested in becoming a better cook. If you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold in cooking issues, then we think there's a lot you'll like. And the best part, chefsteps.com is entirely free to learn. And welcome back to the issues. Here's today with Peter, Kim. Adam Mofad, Nastasia, and the engineering crew. Uh, call on your questions, she's awesome time, call on your questions, 718-497-2128, 718-497-2128.
+
+[32:24] Uh, so we have this one in uh, comment, really, from uh, Andrea Peroti, from the uh, UK, and this one, uh, Peter, you want to want to listen to it? has to do with MoFAD. I'm a long time reader of the blog and listener of the show. My girlfriend and I have followed the recent MoFAD development and are very excited about this project, especially the puffing gun exhibit. I'm a nutrition science student currently working at Kellogg's as a junior nutritionist in our UK team. I'm sure you guys won't need it, but if you'd, uh, if you'd like any information or any help of any time, I'd be happy to contribute any way I can. I'm not a huge manufacturing expert, but I work closely with the R&D team, and I'd be happy to let any give you any information, should you need it. So I guess, you know, who knows, who knows what we need, right? Peter? Oh yeah, that would be fantastic. Fantastic. So yeah, you should definitely contact us at info at mofed.org and we'll definitely get in touch with you. Here's the best part. Best of luck and obtaining the full amount for the puffing gun. We recently made a small donation, but are spreading the word to all of our family and friends. So Andre's doing exactly the right thing, which is spreading the word to all the family and
+
+[33:23] friends. Steve, you have a color? Call her, you're on.
+
+[33:35] Hey, can you guys hear? I can't, I can't hear what's going on. Call her. Oh. Hi. Hello? Hi. Call her. Hi. Howdy duty. your question? Hi, sorry, I didn't think you could hear me. Um, I'm calling about uh, one time listener, love the show. Um, calling about thickening yogurt. I'm wondering, I want to like take yogurt and add fruit puree to it, but it lose a lot of its viscosity. and I'm wondering if I can use something like Agar or Carraginan to take it so that I can like form canals with spoons. Well, you can thicken yogurts with cancine and it's done all the time. The issue is, is that, uh, you know, carragina needs to be heated. Uh, you know, pretty hot almost all the way up to uh, the boil for it to really get, um, to get active. Now, what you can do is uh, heat, heat the carragin in, in, and I would use,
+
+[34:38] so kappa carragin is uh, stiff and brittle. Uh, and it doesn't reform after it's broken, whereas Iota carragin is much more kind of uh, stretchy, uh, and it also reforms gel. So a lot of times people will use a mix of kappa and uh iota for things like thickening yogurt. Uh, and you, you can use a very small amount, because carrogene is very synergistic with, um, uh, with uh, dairy systems. Um, and so, yeah, I think a lot of the times people would probably add the stuff before the
+
+[35:08] thickening because they can then heat it without heating the yogurt up to a certain high temperature. But what you could do is over, um, you know, heat heat the yogurt
+
+[35:17] slightly and then, oh, it'll kill the culture, though. And then over, uh, you know, overdose, dose, some actual straight milk, and then stir that in, let it gel, and then set up further. Alternatively, you know, you could take a live yogurt. Uh, make like a firmer iota and then, you know, stir it in, uh, just before it sets when it's
+
+[35:36] warm but not too hot and then let it set like that and then let it culture up a little
+
+[35:40] more, uh, and you should be able to get a, uh, a gel. The other thing, though, is if you really want to thicken it up, just hang it, you know, like, put, put it into like, uh, you know, uh, uh, an actual fine cheesecloth, not that wretched, they sell in the supermarket, and let moisture drip out of yogurt for a good long time, and uh, you'll, you'll drip out a bunch of the moisture, and it'll thicken up quite a bit, and then you won't have as much of a problem when you mix the fruit, fruit purees back into
+
+[36:05] it, because uh, it'll, it'll just be taking it back to where it once was. Right, right. Okay. Um, how much curry can do you typically use for, say, like X amount of... something like yogurt? You said you use small amounts, right? What did you say? You generally typically use like very little, right? Yeah. Well, so, I mean, uh, in a dairy systems, Caribbean is roughly uh, 5 times more powerful than it is in water based systems. There's a number that get a little dicey when you get down to those kind of very low percentages, but you can in general
+
+[36:39] use like on the order of uh 2 grams per kilo, something in that
+
+[36:45] range and get a pretty uh decent gel with with them.
+
+[36:49] Um, Piper, Christensen, uh, who works with us at Booker and Dax, uh, did a stint
+
+[36:55] at uh, working R and D at CP Kelco, who does a lot of the good tarraginas. So what we'll have him do. He's in Vietnam right now. But when he gets back from Vietnam. I'll just ask him for a good yogurt thickening recipe and have him tweet it out and I'll
+
+[37:09] refweet it for it on cooking issues tweet Twitter feed before next week's show. Awesome. That would be amazing. Thanks, love the show. Love everyone. Keep up the good work. Thanks so much. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, no worries. So, all right. Andrea made a comment back from the person who works
+
+[37:29] at Kellogg's in the UK, and this is the apropos part also for Peter. Uh, the nutrition show uh, the nutrition coverage on the show is limited but always very interesting and usually aligned with my personal opinions. There are not so many shows, programs or print media publications that really value evidence-based nutrition like you do. I really do enjoy listening. Well, I have a treat for you, so that you can talk about a little bit, which is the museum. We've mentioned this on the air. The museum is going to be uh, doing a series of food for us. Uh, I guess that's the plural forum, uh, where we
+
+[38:00] get, uh, uh, experts in different fields, uh, food related fields on opposite sides of, uh, different issues, including, uh, nutrition questions, things like the soda
+
+[38:12] band in New York, uh, and kind of what the evidence is on whether or not that's even a useful
+
+[38:18] thing or a good thing. Uh, things like, what other subjects we going to tackle, Peter. Looking at the marketing of snack foods. Also, GMO seeds. And basically, take any controversial food issue where you've got a lot of really strong opinions out there, you know, bringing all these people together for
+
+[38:39] a discussion and to allow people to see the different points of view and come
+
+[38:43] to their own conclusions. So, you know, what we hope is that, you know, this is going to be, uh, a, a bastion of no BS straight fooding. We're going to get people from different size of the debate, we're all smart, no idiots, uh, and get them together, moderate
+
+[39:03] them, and try to have some actual interesting food discussion. A lot of it's going to be centered around nutrition just because that's such an important topic today. There's just so much misinformation uh out there uh
+
+[39:15] because, you know, all the information that you get presented is presented by someone who has an axe to grind. Now you think so, Peter? Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I mean, we have, I have an axe to grind too, but my axe to grind is that everyone else has an axe to grind, but I guess that
+
+[39:30] is, that is its own axe, right? Also, even a Medax. Yeah, Medax. I'd say either an axe a grind or a commercial interest. Yeah, or some combination, some combination there of. Okay. Vivian Mac writes in. Question for the show. She writes it on Twitter, actually. Why do some uh, age uh, egg whites when they make that grow? What's the difference? Uh, what's affected age, egg whites on foam, uh, grainage and volume? Well, I'll look at an article called the 10 age, and 8 storage time for A, I'll be in filming by
+
+[40:01] Marianne Hammer. Dave, you have another problem? Oh, yeah? Okay, okay. Call her, you're on the air. Yeah, Dave. I'll be brief here since you're another time. Falafel. I'm having repeated falafel disasters. It either instantly burns or just completely disintegrates in the oil. Yes, that is true. There's nothing more depressing than, uh, there's nothing more depressing than making the falafel ball, and then sticking it into the oil, having it completely dissolved and then form a layer of burnt crap on the bottom of your fryer.
+
+[40:38] Check, check, check. Yes. Yeah, that's horrible. It happens to me all the time, and I didn't point research, a good recipe, and I
+
+[40:51] have a lot fulls, uh, down, but I'm hesitant to, uh, just like over the air, give a bunch of things, because I want to remember exactly, uh,
+
+[41:00] how down, them. I think one of my main problems was I, early on is I really like, uh, I really like, uh, tahini flavor a lot, and so I think I put a lot of it into the chickpea mix that I put in.
+
+[41:13] And so I think the oil, and plus I didn't add a lot of external binder to it, and they just blew apart. Um, then I moved to try and chill the batter 1st in the, you know, parfreeze a little bit so that
+
+[41:24] they'd hold well before the crust set up, and I went through a whole bunch of rigmaroles. I'm gonna try to figure out exactly what I did and if Natasha can write out, I'll uh try to talk about it for next week's uh program when I have
+
+[41:36] uh, little more time to gather my thoughts on it, but, but you are correct. There's nothing more depressing. Well, a few things more depressing than watching your falafel balls fall apart in the
+
+[41:46] fryer and think to the bottom. Yes, um, thank you very much. All right, so we'll deal with that guy next week. All right, so back to the importance of hen age and egg storage time. uh from 2000 and I was reading the abstract. The firm is in fraction of egg albumen had different foaming properties. Uh, so in, I'll give you the upshot. The thin, white, foams more, i.e. has more overrun, can take more energy into it. But the thick white produces a more stable foam, right? So you can't uh, that, that, you can't win. And so, the more you age things, the more the, uh, egg whites, uh, more, more of the thick white is converted into, uh, thin white, but
+
+[42:30] also, the, the foaming properties of it depends on the age of the hen when they handle
+
+[42:35] age the egg, and that's something you can't control anyway. So really, uh, there is no way, uh, there's no way to win. Uh, there's another article if you want, you can go look at, uh, that deals
+
+[42:45] with, uh, the problem of meringue specifically. It's called the effect of sugar, citric gas, and egg white types on the microstructural mechanical properties of meringues, which came out relatively recently, but, uh, I think all of this stuff is kind of
+
+[42:58] the point. The best thing I read about it, was uh, on a website called
+
+[43:03] macaron Mythbusters, uh, uh, on the blog, www.bravepart.com. Anyway, we're kind of talking about macaroons here. We're talking about the French meringue based cookies with the jelly in between, which I freaking love. you guys like those things? Uh, no, not really. What the hell? You don't like those either? What do you not like about those? Peter, you like those things, right? Sorry, man. You don't like food? Well, actually, I don't, it's been so long since I've had one, but I'm not, I don't have much of a sweet tooth. What's wrong with you people? don't you like it, Stas? Is it because it reminds you of how delicious a biscuit is? No, I, same as Peter. Like, I haven't had it in a long time, so it's not like I care that much about them. So maybe that's the thing. I just don't care. So it's not that you don't like them. you don't care about me. But if someone put in front of you, you're not like, no, thanks. No I'll eat it. You guys are freaking. I think they're delicious. anyway. Uh, so, uh, Brave Tart, and I don't know who it is, uh, uh, did a series of tests, and uh, here's what Braveheart writes, which I really
+
+[44:12] like, uh, every day I changed a single variable across multiple patches. The bridge where I was making them professionally uh for somebody, uh, you know, for, for several
+
+[44:21] months, was, uh, every day was pumping out these things, and so had a lot of opportunity to
+
+[44:26] test, and said, I changed people variable across multiple batches, generally 3, you know, to my results. I also tested variables by their absence. For example, I listen to Huey Lewis in the news every time I made that room. The macaron turned outside the list. Then I made a few batches without the power of love because these all, and then these also turned out beautifully. So I can at least conclude that human Lewis didn't play an essential role in the matter of making macaroni. I think that's kind of a great test. You know, maybe it was the human limits. And right, race part here is, a race card matter, here is, um, what they're, what, what, you know, what, basic targets, basically saying is, is that, uh, a lot of these things that people take for granted, or take as rules, making them, like, you have to, uh, age your egg whites 1st, or you have to, um, or you have to dry out the math, you pipe them before you cook them, aren't necessarily dried in stone, and Brave starts point, and I have to keep saying their name, because I don't know if it's a he or she, but, uh, Brave Tart's point is basically that, if you
+
+[45:21] have proper proper technique and you know what a proper meringue uh looks like and the proper egg white phone looks like, then you can get that egg
+
+[45:29] white so you can get a proper result. Right? Uh, it's for technique is good, whether you dry it uh, after you uh, after you pipe it or you don't, because that's basically controlling uh,
+
+[45:40] moisture. A lot of the techniques that are used are controlling the moisture content of the uh batter before it's piped. So drying controls the spread of the macaron and the and and the moisture content by letting some moisture flash off. Ditto with the aging the egg whites. And by the way, back to Vivian Max's question. Aging the egg whites can mean several things. It can mean using aged egg whites. i.e. uh, what, or aged eggs, that is, eggs that are older, and therefore also have a higher pH and more thin white, uh, and
+
+[46:09] also possibly more protein density because some uh, waters evaporated. It could also mean, uh, uh, cracking the eggs out in advance, uh, and then letting moisture flash off the top of the egg
+
+[46:21] white to also increase protein density. Either one of those things could be meant by aging. I'm not sure which one you mean, uh, or which one anyone knows when we're talking about it. But the, the big point here is that, uh, all of the variables about the age of the egg whites can just be swamped and drowned out if you just
+
+[46:38] perfect, uh, your actual techniques. So I would go read, uh, Brave Tarts macaroon section, uh, macaroon section, rather, uh, and see what they said. So, uh, very quick, because I know I am running out of time because I have to make it to my uncle Luke's 100th birthday. You don't want to be ready to 100th birthday party, am I right? Right. I mean, he's 100, so last time I saw Uncle Luke, he was 98, and he's, he's still clipping along, saw him yesterday, you know, just, just in case, but, uh,
+
+[47:05] but yeah, never been to 100th birthday, oldest relative I've ever had. Does you have anyone that's close to 100 family ever? No, not at all. Yeah, down here in Florida, living the kind of dehydrated Florida life, you know? Yeah. Uh, okay. So, Scott from Guelph. You know, we love Guelph, never been, but like I always say, awesome university
+
+[47:27] up there. Every science, rice in. Uh, it's an interesting link, uh, about the polymerization, uh, the polymerization of oils, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, is APA, 244, 0068, A1, uh, and says, Dave was
+
+[47:43] talking. Japanese being said, well, products, uh, I'd be relevant. Now we were talking before about this Japanese product. Some people wrote in about, uh, that you could uh, add to uh, oil in the pan,
+
+[47:55] solidifies it so you could throw it away as a block. It was kind of cool. But this is kind of a cool technique. Then we should talk about it more next week where they're actually using, um, not methyl cellulose, like we use in normal cooking, ethyl cellulose, uh, and the, the deal with ethyl
+
+[48:12] cellulose is opposed to ethyl cellulose. ethyl cellulose is not soluble in water. It's not a hydro, soluble in oil, but it's, it's, although it's not a hydrocolloid,
+
+[48:24] but it's not soluble in water, uh, it, it, it, is exactly analogous to hydrocolloid and water, but, so you disperse ethocellulosin oil, heat up as much higher
+
+[48:37] temperature, then you do uh, most water bases. So it, uh, it dissolves in cools and forms a gel where a liquid phase is actually liquid oil and not liquid water.
+
+[48:51] Uh, I'm fresh and they like them, but, uh, pretty cool, and they have a lot of, um, potential uses in
+
+[48:58] dehibit, uh, uh, replace uh, trans facts. Anyway okay. It's a question for before we got to go. Uh, Yo, Jack, got a question for the show and something for you to laugh at. from Dan Cisca. Uh, and, uh, 1st give you the one that they sent me the
+
+[49:14] last, uh, uh, uh, they, you know, he knows uh, that uh, we enjoy uh, funk and hip hop and all this kind of stuff. So, and I was not aware of this website, but sent us a link
+
+[49:23] to uh, it's called Gizugal, and basically they take, they take any, Google, but they have somehow used Google Translate, uh, uh, functionality, and they, they translate anything into, uh, kind of, like, you know, shape or
+
+[49:42] facial language. So they sent us all to uh, cooking issues, uh, heritage raising or cooking issues, uh, splash cage done in, uh, in shizzle language. And, uh, in an interesting, fun to do search, uh, as long as you're, you know, as long as you're not
+
+[50:00] offended by, uh, people stopping a lot of F bombs, it is, you know, In fact, these quick questions. He has 2 questions. I'm going to ask about this next week because I don't understand it. Questions are, number one, Western sauce, the VATF. I've never heard of Western sauce. You ever heard Western sauce, Gaws or Peter? No. I have no idea what that is I don't... North Carolina barbecue sauce. Okay. I'm going to see WTS. Western North Carolina barbecue sauce, no offense, Lexington, North Carolina, because I'll tell you something, the Eastern North Carolina barbecue sauce, which is very, very much pepper only, way to be. And, you know, I think now, anyone that lives, you know, kind of in the Peymont area of North Carolina, and likes to add a little bit of today's lunch, and that otherwise delicious pulled pork barbecue, uh, with, uh, with, kind of,
+
+[50:48] please, slush, but, uh, you know, there's kind of like, there's a right and the wrong there, and I believe Eastern North Carolina sauce is right. I think that's what they're referring to. Probably can get in trouble for that. I'm there. Oh, and by the way, you know how a couple weeks ago I came out against barbecue sauce because in general, I'm against it. You remember that stuff? Yeah. Do you know who Mr. Gabe Williams is? You're sort of fading out and then Oh, do you know who Dr. Gable Williams is? No. Ventra Cable Williams was the most famous animal trainer, like, that Ring's brothers ever had, and he's
+
+[51:23] been down there, and I had a chance to taste his steak sauce, and I
+
+[51:26] had to say it was pretty good. Check out Gunter Gable Williams steak sale. You take, uh, you take Scotch. You should not pay potential onions, and then you throw in a bunch of scotch, and then you throw in a bunch of Worcestershire sauce, and then, uh, and then you throw in a little bit, a little bit of brown sugar, and uh, a little bit of mustard, and a little bit of Worcestershire sauce, and
+
+[51:49] that, and I have to say, actually, like, it's pretty good. It's more of a jus. This is a beast, sweet barbecue sauce, and more of a... Anyway, um, all right, so it looks like uh, looks like it's all the good stuff we got. It does? Yep. All right. we're out. I'm gonna report on my uncle Luke's 100th birthday when I come like 350 issues. Remember the backsticks? Dave, one more plug. One more plug man. So, yeah, we'd really appreciate you guys support. Means a lot to us. really need your help. So, and we need to raise the money we need for the exhibit by July 20. If we don't get the support we need, this is really just not going to happen. So please get onto boom.mofed.org. Thank you. Do it. Do it.
+
+[52:41] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[52:51] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine. I'd like to invite you to check out chefsteps.com. It's a free website we've created as a place to learn new cooking techniques and collaborate with curious cooks from around the world. Sign up now at chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:57] Calling your questions, too. Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Audio. I host the cookies just coming to you live from New Orleans, Louisiana, but the rest of the cooking issues crew is coming to you live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, where they're sweating in their
+
+[1:15] chonies right now without air conditioning. How you guys doing? Fine. Yeah, yeah. Well, we have in the studio today. We actually have a full crew over there. We have, I think we have, do we have Jack Angelo in the engineering booth or, uh... No, just me today. He made you suck up the heat. Thanks, Joe. But in the actual little place where we do the show. We have nostache, the Hammer Lopez, as usual. We also have Peter, Kim from MoFad, to talk more MoFad, goodness with us, and Piper decided to go and take a hit with us today. How you doing, guys? Fine. Good. Yeah, yeah, good. All right. So listen, a note on uh, a note on uh,
+
+[1:54] MoFAD, the museum of uh, food and drink. This is the last cooking issue show before our Kickstarter ends. Kickstarter ends on this Saturday. And, uh, Right now, we're still pushing towards our goal. We super duper, need everyone's help on this. I mean, it's very critical that we uh, make and break through this goal to get the puffing gun in the museum kind of on track.
+
+[2:19] Do you want to say a few words here? Yeah, we've got 4 days. We need to raise over $14,000 of, you know, it's not just about launching this puffing gun exhibit, but it's really about generating momentum for the museum as a whole.
+
+[2:32] And, you know, we can't really get into the details here, but there's a lot more at stake than just this exhibit.
+
+[2:39] There are a lot of, let's just say, important people watching, and if we have a strong showing here, we show that there's broad support for a food museum here in New York, which I think there should be,
+
+[2:48] then a lot of great things are going to happen for the project. This is really going to help us rocket forward to opening up New York's 1st brick and mortar food
+
+[2:56] museum is something we really believe in. We need your help. Please get onto Kickstarter at boom.mofed.org right away. boom.mofed.org. We really need your help. Thanks, guys. Man, you've already backed it, right? You can always go in, manage your pledge. Kicking a few dollars more. It's not going to hurt. You don't have to only pledge whatever you pledge to get your t-shirt or whatever. Am I right, Peter? That's right And actually, real quick story. I was on the phone with my brother the other day and, uh, you know, lamenting to him how stressful this whole process is, um, and I was talking to my eight-year-old nephew,
+
+[3:30] uh, Oliver and Oliver, uh, basically was telling me how amazing the puffing gun looks and how he's so excited about seeing
+
+[3:37] it. And then he said, I'll try to do a little impression. Uncle Peter. Uncle Pierre, I looked in my piggy bank. I have $10. I want to donate $10 to the Move Fed Kickstarter campaign because I want to see a puffing gun. Wow. Are you going to are you guys out there going to disappoint that kid? My eight-year-old nephew. He wants to donate $10. I'm not taking the $10, but that is like, I mean, basically, I think he's, he just gave away his whole life savings right there to MoFed. And so if an eight-year-old can do that, you know, we've got awesome stuff, $30 gets you a great t-shirt, $50 gets you a tote, $300 bucks, and you can see Dave, Harold McGee, Wiley Dufray, a bunch of other
+
+[4:20] chefs, puffing whatever they want in the puffing gun, and we'll be doing some really interesting stuff there.
+
+[4:26] Yeah, no one should be disillusioned when they're eight. 99 is the year of disillusionment. There you go. You know what I mean? Yeah. All right, listen, I figured, let's see where we can sweeten this up a little bit. People have listened to the show for a while. Uh, may remember several years ago when I lost a bet, and the bet was, uh, the bet was to uh, whether or not someone could produce uh, a raw chocolate that I thought was even
+
+[4:53] marginally uh, halfway decent and worth eating as chocolate, right? And if I lost, uh, I would have to eat uh, raw vegan food for a week. And I did. And, you know, no offense to people who eat rough vegan every day, but it was horribly unpleasant and wreak havoc with my
+
+[5:11] GI track. Let's put it that way. So I was going to put this to you guys there in the studio. Can we think of an equally unpleasant thing that I can
+
+[5:20] do, and then let's say, okay, I bet that we don't get more than $10,000 more
+
+[5:25] than what we want. So in other words, that we won't make it tonight. If we make it to 90, I'll go through with whatever unpleasant thing that we think we should do. What do you think? Finish your book on time. Just too late. My book's already really busted. Busted. I can't finish something on time. It's already late. I mean, we can create a new deadline. Yeah, yeah, right. You can always create a new deadline. My question is something that the reader that the listeners care about, right? Like, is there anything unpleasant that I can eat some like horrible, stupid diet that I can undertake for a week or two? Well, here are things we know that Dave hates. What does Dave hate? Dave hates raps. Dave hates Nato. Dave hates cherries. Well, I don't hate them. I love them. I can't have them. Piper, you probably know better. What other stuff does Dave hate? You could do 40 hard boiled eggs, like cool hand, Luke. Well, that's more of a physical challenge. I gave that sort of thing up. I mean, that gave that sort of thing up when I was in college. I mean, I was that guy in college who, uh, I was that guy in college who, uh, would eat, you know, anything
+
+[6:26] for like, uh, like 2 bucks. I was like so cheap. I once ate a gallon of salsa for, I think, 3 bucks. I ate like a couple of those, uh, you know, like whole tea bags for like
+
+[6:38] a do- that was like, I was that guy. That was me in college for that guy. That was me. So a gallon of salsa for 3 bucks for 90,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm not that guy anymore. We said, once you have kids, my wife's like, really? You can't, you can't do things that dumb because it, uh, you know, it
+
+[6:57] makes it, you know, sends the wrong message to the kids. You know what I mean? What about the lemonade cleanse? What's the lemonade cleanse? It's like maple syrup and lemonade and cayenne pepper, and that's all you get. I mean, I could do that. That's just unpleasant, but it doesn't have me learn anything. It doesn't have any, like, is there anything that I've derided horribly? Let's think about it for a couple minutes. And, uh, by the way, Carter question is two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. I'm going to read something in from one of our listeners and supporter of MoFAD. By the way, since I don't know them personally. Do you think it's Gene Doe or John Doe? John Doe would be the better Twitter handle, right? John Doe? It is Zondo. And I've spoken with him extensively. This guy's been a superstar, really helping us with outreach. Yeah. So he wrote in and said, I've learned a lot from your cooking issue show over the several months listening to your podcast. I'm pretty close to being caught about all the back episodes. Thank you for freely sharing your in-depth knowledge as well as making the methods and techniques so accessible. Also, the most app Kickstarter is a food education game changer, and I wish you all the best of luck in getting it back. I'm doing what I can do to spread the word. Here have a couple of my thoughts on boom, which is the name of the Kickstarter, by the way. Uh, on Twitter uh, post requesting puffing ideas. I recall Sean Brock suggested, uh, I'm gonna... I pronounce it the way you hate pharaoh. Nastasia hates it when I say pharaoh instead of far up. Anyway, Faro, and at Marquez mentioned Storghum. Ideas are good, but what about encouraging grain farmers, chefs, et cetera, to donate interesting ingredients. an outreach program that would get more people excited about, boom, it would be analogous to the communal oven back in the day. I was wondering if you could possibly create your own grain in quotes to
+
+[8:32] puffs. I understand that puffing has to do with grain moisture content and the hull containing the grain. The moisture part is easy. Is there a food technology one could easily leverage to create a pseudohaul? Well, interestingly, here, that is not, that is how normal popcorn style stuff works, but the puffing gun doesn't require the hull.
+
+[8:49] The science behind the puffing gun and puffing in general. So when you're puffing popcorn, what happens is you have starch and moisture and you heat up the starch and moisture and the moisture is trapped not just because of the starch, but because of the skin, the hull around the outside of the popcorn. Until enough pressure can build up, then it ruptures that skin, and boom, expose into popcorn. In the puffing gun, you don't need that layer because you just seal it
+
+[9:14] tight and the whole thing goes under pressure. So there's no way for it to expand. There's no way for it to boil or expand with inside of the gun because pressure just simply mounts up. Then when you pull the lever, everything instantly puffs uniformly. So if you put popcorn in a puffing gun, it comes out as spheres. Peter's like totally jacked for that because he's been like dreaming of these popcorn spheres
+
+[9:34] since since we got the gun, we haven't fired popcorn in it yet. But that's also why you can put dough based things in. And that's how they used to make Cheerios. In fact, this gun was originally designed by Kelloggs to make Cheerios. So yes, you can make your own sort of mix of grains and other starches and puff them in that. No problem. Right, Peter? Yep, that's right Yeah, the color. Oh, all right. Before I take the color. John Doe finished out. Here's what he would like to buff. Azuki beans, black sesame, and rice. If it works, we could make a tasty moshi inspired marshmallow treat. Please tell your listeners to write back MoFats kicks outer, and so should they, right? That's a good idea. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, how's it going guys? Going all right. Quick one for you. So I've heard you're, uh, you got a certain affinity for game and I'm a dude from Minnesota. We kill a lot of deer up here, about like 11 a year, and in my experience, all of our cooking has been with uh, using beef
+
+[10:30] base recipes to uh, and applying them to venison, which the results, your mileage may vary. I was wondering if you had any suggestions as far as uh, federal ways to make use of uh, all that game meat and uh, like any thoughts you have. Well, you have a circulator? Oh, I do, yeah. Yeah. So how's this stuff been coming out? Uh, in other words, like when you do do the beef subs. I assuming you're doing them, you're doing them in a circulator. Are they still coming out? Um, how are they coming out? Like what, like tell me what, tell me how the, how the texture and the flavor of the stuff is coming out when it, when it works? Are you killing? Are these younger animals or older animals by and large? Hello? Hello? Call her? All right, I think we read it. Are we back? All right, I think we're gonna have to hang up on this car. What? What happened? Caller dropped out. Oh, man. Because I had a lot of interesting questions to ask, the questions I want to, is by and large, is he getting younger animals or older animals? Because one of the issues with treating game like beef is that the beef that we get is, I mean, no offense to beef, but relatively neutral
+
+[11:38] in flavor compared to, uh, you know, much older animals, just because
+
+[11:42] it's, it's younger. And so, game meets, the older they are, the kind of more flavorful, more different kind of flavors they're going to have. And if you're doing low temper, sous vide with them, which is a great
+
+[11:53] idea because you don't have to overcook it, and, you know, you can kind of, you know, cook it very gently without overcooking it. The problem is, is that some of these things can get kind of overwhelming when you cook them for a long
+
+[12:05] time, because some of those gamey flavors, uh, that come out of what fat there is, and other things in the animal tend to accentuate uh, over time as they sit in the bag. Uh, and also certain older meats aren't going to get tender no matter what you do, just because the suckers are tough. I mean, that's the problem we had when we cooked, uh, we cooked that bear, uh, and we cooked the lime, as opposed to the yak, which is freaking delicious. Stas, you remember the yak, right? Yeah. That was delicious. Um, So, you know, I don't know about any specific, uh, you know, to
+
+[12:37] focus specifically on deer, because I unfortunately don't get enough of it to cook myself. But when I get back to New York, I'm going to take a look. I'm going to take a look at, you know, I have a, um, after the hunt, which is John Foles's book on cooking, uh, Louisiana game that he shoots down
+
+[12:52] here, and I know he has a big section on deer. Somehow I'll check out to see kind of what he thinks about, um, uh, using deer to its best advantage and then
+
+[13:02] try try to kind of tech those ideas up. Piper, you guys have a lot of deer up in Vermont that you eat or no? Yeah. You ever look, you, what have you, because the low temp stuff I've done on deer, uh, you know, I've done more elk than I've done deer because people have brought me more elk than deer. I've done some deer. What kind of luck have you had with it on low temping and recipes for it? I've never done low temp with it, but sausage. works really well. Yeah, everything tastes good in sausage, man. Why haven't you low tempted yet because you haven't been back there during deer season or what? Yeah, I just haven't been back at there in a while. So you're going to rectify that this fall? Yes. I'll get my license. Yeah, all right. Hey, really? You invited me up. Can I come up? We'll go out together. Why not? All right, cool. All right. So then we'll we'll get back on that. Okay. You guys come up with any good, good, bad ideas for me. Look, the lemonade cleanse, I'll do it. It's fine. I mean, if we decide on that, maybe someone can call in with something horrific for me to do. You could eat in Brooklyn for a month. Oh my god. That's just like, the problem with that is I just want to see my kids. See, that's the thing. Like, I can't just move to Brooklyn for a month. You can bring them. And I'm not the one that hates Brooklyn. Nastasia that hates Brooklyn. Remember? Well, then she can eat in Brooklyn for a month. Well, she'll never do that. She would rather die. She would rather see all of us die. She would rather kill you than eat in Brooklyn every day for a month. Am I right, Stas? No. No, what? You wouldn't want to eat in Brooklyn, or you would do it? You would do it to save Piper's life? Sure. Wow. Nastasia, you are a good person. Uh, Rory Merns writes in. Pronounced like Burns with an M. Rory Burns from New Zealand. Hello to the entire cookie issues team and Indie Jesus. Would Indie Jesus listen to cooking issues? Would any form of Jesus ever have any sort of cooking issues? Well, Rory, I don't know if you're aware of this, but uh, back in the 90s, I think it was, uh, the group King Missile answered
+
+[14:52] this, uh, in a song they wrote called Jesus is Way Cool. And if you remember Jesus is way cool, he can bake a cake better than anyone. Remember that? You guys remember that song? No. You guys don't know anything about King Missile? Oh, the king missile, but... We heard that song. I know King Missile, but I don't know the song. They had that one... Detachable penis. Yeah, everyone listens to detachable penis and they don't listen to Jesus' way, cool. You can't listen to detachable penis without, you know, going further and
+
+[15:20] listening to the Jesus is way cool. It's all about how Jesus, like, you know, would be awesome, like to hang around with. You know what I mean? Because he's way cool. Anyway, uh, I assume that's what he was uh, referring to. Anyway, uh, he's traveling from New York, uh, to New York, from New Zealand around September, October this year, and I had a couple of questions. One, I had some questions a while back, we had a red pepper sauce that you and your listeners helped me out with. This is a product that is sold here commercially. New Zealand. So it's totally legit. I like to drop off a sample for the cooking issues team to taste and critique if they'd like. I'd love to hear your opinions on this stuff. Where would I be able to drop it off? Roberta, Booker and Dax, somewhere else? I just drop it at the bar, Booker and Dax, right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, make sure you put my name on it or those fools there will just eat it. They'll just eat it and be like, oh, we ate this hot sauce. Don't know why I had your name on it. Am I right? Yes. Pretty much. Yeah. Okay, two. Well, in New York, I was hoping, what? What? do you think? A bunch of tackles over there. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, they're like vultures, vultures and jackals. Any sort of scavenger, some fly, some crawl. Well, in New York, I was hoping to pick up a katsubushi Schafer shaver and hopefully some quality katsubushi. The stuff is not available this far down under. Can you tell me where I can go for this? I don't mind spending a bit if I know it will be quality and will last. Okay, so for those of you uh, who don't know uh, kind of what we're talking about here. Uh, Katsubushi is the, you know, the name of the shaved bonito flakes, bonito flakes, which aren't really bonito, their, uh,
+
+[16:42] yellow skipjack, their skipjack tuna. But, uh, so, you know, the, the, the flakes are the bonito flakes that you use to make dashi and innumerable other, uh, delicious things in Japanese
+
+[16:52] cuisine, uh, so, you, you know, you call that thing, uh, well, various incarnations. There are different words for it at every step in the process. Katsobushi. So the way it's made is they catch the fish. Uh, they, uh, cook the crap out of the fish. They, they, uh, the bones out of the fish, they dry the fish, they smoke the fish, they,
+
+[17:09] they let it rest, they smoke it, they let it rest, they smoke it, they spray some, uh, mold stuff on the outside for really high. They can sell it just right away then, but then that's the lower end stuff, and then the higher end stuff, they put a mold on, they age it, and really, really good stuff. You pick it up and you clink it together and it sounds like kind of like wood, like tink, tink, tink, amazing stuff. My wife bought me some, uh, from Japan when she went there maybe 12 years ago and it's the 1st time I had the actual thing in my hand and not just the
+
+[17:34] flakes. Uh, thing was, I needed a shaver, much as you do now. The only place I know you can walk into New York in New York and buy a real. uh, it's called, I believe it's called um, a creaky. So it would be called like a Kazabushi, sorry, not Creek, Kazoori. Um, uh, Katsobushi, uh, Kazuri. And so the one that they have is at Corin. You should go to Corin anyway. It's a nice door down in Tribeca and it's like, you know, candy for, it's like an amazing place. You know, you guys have all been there, right? Yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts? It's awesome. Get you a nice shot. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's not, do you say it's a knife store? See, people who don't know Piper will be like, it's a nice store, meaning, ah, how good could it be? It a knife story. like, it's a knife store. How bad can it be? get your knife sharpened there by the dude who's by the stream. Yeah, no, no. Anyway, so go to go to Corin. Um, I don't know how the exchange rate is. I mean, Corin is, you know, it's more expensive than it was, you know, 5 years ago because, um, you know,
+
+[18:36] just our exchange rate is horrible, but I don't know what the exchange rate is right now. The prices there because they bring the stuff in from Japan are directly tied to whatever our exchange rate with Japan happens to be at that time. But they sell it. And I looked online before I came over here and it's about $86. Now, what it is, now, you can also go. By the way, they don't sell food. So you're out of luck actually buying that item. And the sad news is I have never seen anywhere in New York,
+
+[19:00] uh, good quality of the solid to purchase of uh, the actual Katsubushi thing. Now, there are chefs who say they can get it, but I'm not really hooked into the sushi suppliers, right? And none of the people that kind of were, you know, that I worked with when I was learning a lot about, um, cutting
+
+[19:19] techniques, and Ikujime techniques, or even when I was doing, you know, a lot of things with the Gohan Society. none of those people really shaved their own flakes at their restaurants that I know of. And so, and then when you ask them for sources, they were very secretive, I guess, because there's limited supply. So they never told me where to go get the good stuff. You can go to Sunrise Mart, which is kind of a local Japanese Mart. There was a couple of them in New York, and they, a couple of years ago, like 4 or 5 years ago, started carrying the actual solid ones, but they weren't the super highest quality
+
+[19:47] ones, like, you know, like we saw when we were in Tokyo, which were amazing. All right. Second thing is, there's extra, oh, by the way, the shaving block, they also at, at sunrise, sell a really crappy little uh, shaver made of plastic and metal, stay away
+
+[20:02] from. useless. don't get it. Now, if you go on the internet and you look at people shaving it. By the way, what this shaver looks like is it looks like you took a wooden block plane, flipped it upside
+
+[20:14] down and put it on a box, and you shave on top of the box, almost like a mandolin or a Ben Renner, right? Uh, only it is really sturdy and solid and beautiful because it's, you know, one of those Japanese things that, of course, they're going to make it sturdy and beautiful and
+
+[20:28] solid, and it has to shave this thing, which is incredibly hard. This woodlike, uh, piece of dried, smoked, fermented molded fish. Now, uh, I looked at some people who
+
+[20:39] were, uh, you know, doing their YouTube stuff, YouTuber in English, and all of them were doing horrible, horrible jobs. Uh, and and by the way, when I use mine, I do a horrible, horrible
+
+[20:52] job. The issues are that the actual moisture content of the
+
+[20:56] katsobushi is critical to getting the shaving right. Otherwise, you get little scumblings of nastiness or like kind of gummy peels. Needs to be just right. Also, the technique you use in shaving has to be just right. Um, Also, you know, if you're looking at a katsobushi, and you guys all use it. So you know what I'm talking about. If you look at Katsuobushi, or if you look at the bonito flakes, we'll call them, you'll notice that a lot of the ones that you
+
+[21:18] buy have kind of a darker stripe running through it. You guys notice that? Yeah. So that's the, that's the, um, that's the GI line. That's the bloodline that's in the fish. And so you can buy 2 types, well, many, but 2 main types of these bonito flakes other than the quality ratings. And that is, you can get them GIRE, which means there's a bloodline in it, or
+
+[21:40] Chianuki, meaning there's no bloodline in it. And one thing I've never been able to figure out, is whether or not they do some sort of procedure to the actual dried fish and pop out that
+
+[21:50] bloodline, or do they just shave it in a way that they're not shaving that part of it when they shave that other stuff and they charge
+
+[21:57] more? I have no idea because no one in English has mentioned this stuff. Now, the good news is, uh, once you once you get a hold of this stuff, you can learn how to do it, if you can watch a bunch of stuff, there's an amazing set of videos, but they're only in Japanese.
+
+[22:11] And I wish someone could translate some of the things, uh, and they're on, go to YouTube and search on
+
+[22:16] Fushi Taka, F-U-S-H-I-T-A-K-A. Uh, they have a 3 part series. You can see it. They're the ones that have dot MOV in the title. So even, you know, people like me who don't understand any sort of, uh, you know, Japanese characters at all. You can find these. And they're worth watching, even if you can't speak a lick of Japanese, because the visuals in it kind of show how it's done. Most interestingly, is no one in English that I can see publishes how to properly adjust this cutter once you get it.
+
+[22:44] You need a wooden or leather mallet. And what they do is they set the blade in, and then they whack on it with a mallet to get the adjustment just right. And in the video, they show you exactly how to do it, how to adjust it
+
+[22:56] right, and how to adjust it up or down if the shavings that are coming out of it aren't proper. So I highly recommend washing that. And they also meant they also show in visual pictures, thank God, that you want to store, uh,
+
+[23:09] that you want to store them at 50% humidity at about 20 degrees C or in a fridge that's
+
+[23:14] wrapped, uh, in plastic and then in a zippy. Now, another thing is they, I know that some people, Wiley told me, Dufrayne told me once that they, some people he'd seen who had them wrapped them in paper towels, I think moist paper towels and nuked them for a
+
+[23:28] 2nd and then in this video, I saw them and they had a problem heated over a flame. I don't know if there's a trick there or not. Maybe someone who speaks Japanese could watch these videos and kind of tell us what's going on, but there you have it. So I can give you some love on the actual shaver, but not on the high quality fish itself. We'll have to find someone else who can find us a good source of that. Maybe someone will write in. Okay, three. Well, in New York, where would I be able to pick up a dual probe thermometer gadget, like those on the chef steps store. You know the yellow looking things, replaceable probes that everyone seems to use for sous vide. Thanks for keeping up the good work. I'm looking forward to experiencing all the great food that America has to offer, including American country ham. something I never even heard of before listening to your show. Regards where emerge. Now, on the, on the probe, the only place I really go to buy kitchen equipment like
+
+[24:11] that in New York is JB Prince. Now, JB Prince, again, that's another place everyone should go. You guys have all been to JB Prince, right? We have love for J.B. Prince. J.B. Prince, um, they don't carry a dual probe thermometer, and the other thing about J.B. Prince is, you know,
+
+[24:28] like they get a rap from sometimes from people for being expensive, but the truth of the matter
+
+[24:32] is, they only carry kind of uh, high-end products. And so you can always get something cheaper. You're like, you're not going to be able to get something at JB Prince that's the same price as the one on the chef's step website. Um, but they do have a single probe, uh, thing. The other thing, when you're buying a thermocouple probe, a lot of people on like Amazon, for instance, will, will say that they have a hypodermic probe that works for sous vide, and whoever wrote that must have never cooked a damn thing in their entire freaking lives, because they, they give you a probe that's way too wide, and that when you puncture the
+
+[25:06] bag doesn't reseal properly. Piper, you've seen that before, right? Where someone says this is a hyperdermic probe and it's more like a hammer. We used to put a little piece of rubber over the hole. Yeah, well, you have to put rubber over the hole anyway, no matter what kind of probe you use, but the ones
+
+[25:20] that, like, that you had at WD were, you know, submillimeter probes, they were thin and extremely fragile, by the
+
+[25:26] way. So you never want to use it to check deep fryer oil because it can melt out the
+
+[25:30] thermocouple connections, the actual place where it's bonded together and the thing is ruined. And those things cost well over, those cost like a 100 bucks or over. Uh, like almost anywhere you go. There are things called hypodermic probes that are only a little bit thinner than, uh, than, you know, like a standard instant read, and that, you know,
+
+[25:50] would, would cause way too big, big of a hole. They're like well over twice as big as the actual hyperdermic probes. So I recommend going to J.B. Pranson, looking at the hyperdermic probe they have. But a secret trick, if no one ships the product you want in New Zealand,
+
+[26:03] is, uh, you can use your New Zealand uh, Amazon account, I think, to order on US Amazon and have the stuff prime shipped
+
+[26:10] to your hotel. And I've done that when I do events, even within the United States. I've had stuff prime shipped to the hotel where I'm going to stay because you know in advance where you're going to
+
+[26:18] be, and you can ship anything you want from the U.S. there like that and hotels will usually hold it, which is a good technique. But you should definitely go by JB Prince, and you should definitely go by Corin. And if you want to see a really good bookstore, you should go by kitchen arts and letters, right? Anywhere else good, that I should think about it. Guys? Yeah, they don't care. They're too hot. They can't even think straight over there. Okay. Joshua writes in. I have ropey yogurt. Nastachi, is there anything more disgusting in your mind than ropey yogurt? Nope. That's a new one. Actually, Piper, you have to buy this. There's a yogurt in a minute called Caspian sea yogurt, uh, Matsonia, Matsuni, depending on how you pronounce it, that is meant to be ropey, and we can get the culture and make it, and then just make
+
+[27:01] nastasia look at ropey yogurt all day long. Won't that be fun? I like different textures. I know you do. That's like the McGee thing. McGee thing, now, this goes back to like something, you know, McGee did a long time ago when we started doing the McGee cooking
+
+[27:13] class. One of the things he said was, uh, very early, he's interested in talking about is, well, bad textures are only bad because we assume they're bad.
+
+[27:22] What if you assume that that texture is good and then accentuated? And so that's when he really started pushing this idea of stretchy ice cream with
+
+[27:31] celeb dunderma, right? And, you know, kind of, you know, created a whole thing around select becoming popular. He also said, well, what if you really wanted ice cream to have giant crystals in it? Why does ice cream have to be smooth? And he, you know, showed the, uh, this French ice cream called like pin, pin, pin needle ice
+
+[27:49] cream that, I have to say, I'm with him in theory, but I didn't like the pin needle ice cream very much.
+
+[27:54] You guys remember that one? Oh really? You don't remember it, or you didn't like it? I don't remember it. Ah, man, it says, like, in one ear or not the other on people. Ah, whatever. So the whole point is, is that if you push a texture a certain way on purpose, it can be
+
+[28:07] nice, even though it's not what you're expecting. So there's this rope. there's this yogurt that's ropey, that's meant to be ropey. Uh, and and the other interesting thing about it is that it uses a metaphysic, uh, sorry, metal, mesophilic culture, meaning that
+
+[28:20] the culture uh, does it low temperature. So you don't need a yogurt maker to do it. You can culture it at room temperatures and it gets this weird ropey yogurt. can buy cultures for it online. But anyway, back to the question. Uh, that Josh had, Joshua had. I've been making yogurt recently, and I've had several batches, which turn out a bit ropey slash, it's not like, they taste fine, but the texture is not what I would like. My typical procedure is to take milk with a bit of powdered milk added, up to 180 degrees Fahrenheit, sales all the stuffed itinerary, cool to 110 degrees Fahrenheit, and add one tablespoon of starter yogurt per quart, and incubate at 110 degrees Fahrenheit for 6 to 8 hours.
+
+[28:57] Any idea what causes this rope like texture? Well, I've never had it happen to me before, but according to the, by the way, ropey texture,
+
+[29:05] well, I'll read you what. According to the sensory evaluation of dairy products, edited by Stephanie Clark, Michael
+
+[29:11] Costello, and Floyd W. Bodyfeld. How awesome is that guy's name? Floyd Bodyfeld and Mary Antrik, uh, who's very well known. On page 208, it says there are 5 major causes for ropey yogurt. Improper gums, meaning improper thickening devices that you're added, but you're not adding a thickener, so that's not your problem. Microbial contamination, uh, which is probably what's going
+
+[29:36] on, uh, yogurt culture is containing polysaccharide making bacteria. By the way, all these things add the same thing. improper setting temperatures and too much sugar. Now too much sugar probably is not what you're doing. All of the rest of the other ones basically add up to this. There's some hydrocholoid being formed in, you know, polysaccharide being formed in your yogurt that's causing the
+
+[29:57] ropey like texture, right? And either you added that polysaccharide because you're using a thickener or gum, in which case you probably misadded some pectin or something like
+
+[30:06] that, that's causing a ropiness in it. Have you ever had a pectango ropey and a yogurt application, Piper? No. What about Carragan and Go Ropey? I never had a carrot game and go ropey. No, Xanthon goes ropey. Yeah, Xanthicos will be, but pectins, when they go bad, and certain acidic environments can go
+
+[30:23] ropey if they're not fully set, but you've never had it happen in yogurt. No, I never encountered it in yogurt. Okay. Uh, so all of these things uh, basically point to the fact that there's a poly saccharide happening. Now, the question is, is it contamination, like a contaminant bacteria or whatever that's floating into your yogurt and causing the ropiness, or is it the actual yogurt culture that you're using that's
+
+[30:48] doing it? Now, it turns out that, you know, yogurt most typically is a combination of
+
+[30:53] a, um, I can't pronounce it. So, like, I'm going to say it, it's going to be wrong, because I've only ever read it. I've never pronounced it, but it's a lactobacillus, Del Brookie. I think it's pronounced, Bulgaricus, right? That's the one thing that does it. And then the other, um, uh, the other one is uh, streptococtus, uh, thermophyllis. These are the 2 that are used in normal kind of higher temperature yogurt. like the one that you're doing. Now, the lacto basilic, the lacto basilis can,
+
+[31:21] like, that strain can be either be a kind that produces extracellular ropey
+
+[31:26] polysaccharides or one that produces smaller unit polysaccharides that don't form a ropey texture. Surprisingly, you actually want a bit of that ropiness, but you don't want so much of the ropiness that it becomes ropey. So, uh, the trick there is, um, you're
+
+[31:43] probably uh, maybe uh, doing it at a temperature that's favoring the uh, the ropiness or you're letting it go too long before you chill it down to fridge temperature to kind of stop that acceleration and you're favoring the balance of the
+
+[31:57] ropey uh, ones over the other ones. So you could just try switching your starter culture. Uh, you could try making sure like covering it, make sure you're not contaminated, uh, or you could try, uh, maybe shifting your temperature up a degree or 2 and then chilling it faster when you're done.
+
+[32:10] I don't know if any of those are going to work, but take a look into that. What do you guys think about that? Anything? anything? He could try switching the milk source too. You got a problem with milk source? Well, I mean, it could be contamination that is existing in the milk before he starts. Well, heats it up to 180. Most everything is gonna, most everything it's gonna produce a polysac or like that's gonna croak out before 180. Just thinking about eliminating potential sources of contamination first. True, true. True. Got to eliminate contamination, always. Okay. Um, Now, 2nd question. I'm also interested in making a lean bread, meaning I guess, I guess by lean bread, meaning only yeast, water, flour, salt. Um, like a French bull with about 50% of the flour as milled brewer's malt, both base malt and specialty kiln malt in order to pair with beers of
+
+[33:05] similar grain bill. What I need to kill any enzymes in the mall to make this work. Are there any different concerns with working with barley flowers? Any help is much appreciated. Uh, okay, well, so this is, this is interesting because, um, Because there's people out there who cook with nothing but sprouted grains, right?
+
+[33:25] And so presumably these have a lot of diastatic activity from the enzymes that they're converted when you sprout it. Uh, you know, there's companies that produce 100% sprouted things. Uh, but then on the other hand, when you read recommendations for, um, for baking, if you're actually using diastatic malt powder, right, then they
+
+[33:44] uh, advise against not adding too much because then it's going to convert too much of the starch to
+
+[33:49] sugar, and you'll get kind of gummy results in your bread. So I don't know where the balance lies, because some people are using 100% sprouted grains. And then some people are cautioning against using more than a small amount of, uh, of, um, you know, um,
+
+[34:04] diastact malt powder. I will tell you this, from experience, barley loaves in general are dense little suckers. Uh, you know, they're, they're dense, like 100% barley loaves are some dense, and especially the barley that you're using in brewing hasn't been
+
+[34:19] pearls, got the husks still on it, and that's going to be like the, like the, the,
+
+[34:23] the, part of the brand there is going to be like a poparama on your, on your gas cells in your bread. And so like if you're doing whole grain kind of unpurled
+
+[34:33] uh, barley. I'm assuming that you're going to be in the area of some dents. Uh, and so you're gonna want to soak the hell out of them. Uh, maybe soak them overnight and then grind them that way instead of, instead of, or maybe
+
+[34:46] pregrinding them like you would for mashing, then uh, let them soak in some water and then grinding them further so that the, so that the husks
+
+[34:53] have, uh, you know, enough time to hydrate properly. Um, So I, you know, I, I, I'm kind of at a loss here. I've never done it. Uh, but I'm assuming it'll work. Any of you guys have any thoughts? I mean, Peter Reinhardt has a lot on sprouted, uh, sprouted wheat flour. Um, but I don't have a lot, you know, the, I don't have a lot on this. What do you guys have? Is it gonna increase your yeast activity significantly during the, uh, the rising? Hugely. I mean, that's why you add diastatic model powder in the 1st place, is to convert, in a long fermentation time, you know, situation, like in a sourdough or something, it's going to be retarded in the fridge. You want to have a, you know, a continual supply of yeast for, I mean, sugar for the
+
+[35:35] yeast to feed on while they're doing their stuff. And so adding the, you know, adding the diastatic malt, uh, will continuously break down like some of the starch as a food for the yeast, you just don't want to overdo it. But then on the other hand, you have people baking bread is 100% with this stuff. So I'm going to need some help from some some people out there. I don't know whether it's just a difference because there's so much more higher enzymatic activity
+
+[35:57] in diasthetic malt powder versus like your average sprouted grain, but, you know, if you want the flavor, what I would do is I would kill off a section of the stuff and then have the, like, a section of your, of your, you know, heat it, kill off a section of the
+
+[36:11] end, uh, enzymatic activity and then grind up some and leave it with the enzymatic activity. Um, you know, naturally flour, when you have it, some of the stuff was sprouted because it's very rare for you to have, you know, completely
+
+[36:22] uh, pure flour. When they're measuring the strength of flour, they use something called the falling
+
+[36:27] number where they take up, make a warm slurry of flour and they drop a rod through it and determine how fast it goes down. And what that's a measure of is how much residual antimatic activity there is in the flower, and
+
+[36:37] therefore how much viscosity is broken down by the amylase is working on the flowers as they're there, but it's not a number that most of us have in it. I wish I had more information on this, but, um, go take a look at, um, go take a look at anything that
+
+[36:51] Peter uh, Reinhardt has written. He has written a lot of excellent books on bread and he's become over the past couple of years, kind of a proponent of using sprouted grain flowers. So he might have more information. And uh, there's a good section on the technical uh, uh, aspects of flour on bread, a baker's book of techniques and recipes by Jeffrey
+
+[37:09] Hamillman, and a lot of that one's available in Amazon search inside, so you can go to that.
+
+[37:14] Uh, lastly, uh, Adam Milgram writes in on food safety. Hey, Nastasia, Dave and the team. I was wondering if you could help me work out, if there's a way to tell definitively, if something lurking in the back of my fridge is okay to
+
+[37:26] eat, or to do something to make it safe. 2 recent examples. I had some chicken stock in there for 2 plus weeks, and it looked and smelled fine, but the prevailing wisdom on the internet is that it only lasts for 3 to 5 days. 3 or 5 days seems kind of short, but 2 weeks plus, man, okay. The other was stewed fruit, again, smelled fine, and no signs of mold or anything, but I have no idea how long it's been hanging around maybe a month. Is there a process you can do to render anything safe? EG, bring it to X temperature for Y minutes. So all you need to worry about is taste, or are there other nasties that I need to worry about? Finally, is there any way to test things that you can't easily heat, e.g. mayo, cheese, hummus, etc. FYI. My wife is pregnant. So food safety is becoming an increasingly important issue recently. Thank you for your help and your awesome podcast. Adam. Now listen, Adam, when your wife is pregnant, don't fool around, forget the stewed fruit. Just pitch all that crap. Go crazy. Go ape in your kitchen. You know what I mean? It's like, here's the thing. Like, most likely nothing is going to ever happen to you. However, like now is not the time where you want an incautious food mistake, you know, cause a problem when your wife is pregnant. You guys backing me up on this? I love how close to the edge this dude lives. Yeah, right? I mean, like, he's like, hey, I got a pregnant wife. I got this like 3 week old chicken stock. Yeah. Get the new chicken stock. I'm just saying, like, I went kind of over the top because, you know, like, the consequences of making a mistake at that point are, like, I bleached
+
+[38:55] it. I bleached the hell out of everything whenever I was cooking. One good thing by the way, I would just say this, pitch, and I've said this before on the show many times, if you don't already own a circulator, when, uh, when you or your, or your
+
+[39:06] wife uh, are, or, you know, close family member are pregnant, is the best time to get a circulator, if you don't already have it, because then you can still have your rare steaks, and you can still have your uh, runny poached
+
+[39:19] eggs, even when you're pregnant, because you can cook them to 100% food safe. Just a little pitch for getting a circulator, right? Anyway. I mean, I used to do that whenever, I didn't have a circulator. I think I had a circulator when my 2nd son was born, so I made that stuff for my wife, but I made that stuff, you know,
+
+[39:33] for anyway, I make that stuff for pregnant people because that's awesome. It's an awesome little trick to help pregnant people keep a little bit of food normalcy in their life. Okay, uh, now back to your question in hand. Here's the issue. Um, most bacteria uh, don't like to uh, grow in the refrigerator. And in fact, like that temperature zone for the refrigerator is chosen, such that, uh, you know, things don't grow in it or they don't grow in it very rapidly. Now, there are bacteria that do grow in the fridge, uh, that are known to grow in the fridge. Listeria is one of them. And listeria is one of the ones that you really, really, really, really, really don't want to expose your life to. when she's pregnant. Now, the lucky thing about Lesteria is that if you take something out of your fridge that's in there, right? And Tadlisteria growing on it, then you can kill it, wipe it out by just heating the crap out of it, right?
+
+[40:25] Because listeria doesn't produce any, uh, any, anything that can survive heating. It doesn't produce a toxin, uh, that, you know, that that, you know, that stays in the food after it's been heated. So all you need to do is heat it sufficiently to destroy the listeria and then that food is fine. The problem is going to be with things that, there's,
+
+[40:45] so, there's certain, uh, bacteria that produce anterotoxins, things that you take into your body that, uh, that are an actual chemical that causes food poisoning that aren't just, uh, you know, the effect of having,
+
+[40:57] uh, uh, you know, the actual uh, bacteria inside of you. And some of those are destroyed by heat, and some aren't, right? And the, the, the further complication is, is that there are certain strains of some of these
+
+[41:11] bacteria that normally don't grow in the fridge, but, uh, that there are certain strains that will grow, albeit very slowly in a
+
+[41:19] fridge. And so if you push something for a long time, right, you know, you can get into a situation where these things can grow to levels that are problematic for you.
+
+[41:29] Now, um, the general term for bacteria that grow in the fridge at low temperatures is psychrophilic. I don't know why they call it psychophilic, not cryophilic, or something like that, but it's called psychophilic, because I guess that's the Greek for cold, or something like that. Uh, and psychophilic bacteria are the ones that ruin your milk, right? Even though it's in the fridge, the milk goes bad. Those are sacrifice. Those are spoilage bacteria. They're not going to hurt you. The dangerous ones, though, are a subsection of the psychrophilic bacteria that are called psychotrophic. And the thing with those is, is that they are actually mesophilic bacteria. Ones that grow in kind of normal temperature ranges, that can also retain some of
+
+[42:08] their, uh, uh, their nasty growing habits in the fridge. And those guys, there are strains of those from your common ones that we always get, for instance, um, uh, there's a, uh, uh, there's a paper you should take a look at
+
+[42:23] called the incidence of foodborne pathogens in domesticated refrigerators, uh, domestic, uh, not domesticated. Thatd be crazy. Like you have a wild refrigerator and a domesticated refrigerator, what am I a dunce? Anyway, domestic refrigerators. By V. Jackson, 2007. Here's what it said. The interior services of household refrigerators are at risk of becoming contaminated with
+
+[42:41] foodborne pathogens, increasing the risk of cross-contamination to other food items, including higher to
+
+[42:45] higher risk, ready to eat foods. Um, okay, so they, they went and they looked at 342 domestic refrigerators,
+
+[42:53] and uh, here's what they had to say. Campphalobactors, salmonella, and asheria coli, uh, 0157 H7, were not recovered from any refrigerators. But Staphylococcus Aureus, which produces a, by the way, a non-heat labile, um, uh, anterotoxin,
+
+[43:11] was, uh, recovered from 6.4% of the refrigerators. The stereo monosetagenes, uh, and uh, regular kind of E. coli from one. of refrigerators. Uh, Yosenia, uh, and Terracolic, uh, and, I can't pronounce it, Yosenia,
+
+[43:26] right, from 0.6% of the, uh, refrigerators. And as a result, and as recovered species can survive and grow into refrigerations or conditions of mild temperature abuse, such pathogens may transfer
+
+[43:37] to and develop to clinically significant numbers in food and domestic fridges. So, they can grow a little bit. So I wouldn't, but again, these are like ones that are sitting there and they can form kind of biofilms and get together with, you know, the
+
+[43:50] normal, uh, pseudomonas, which are like, you know, the ones that ruin your milk. Uh, and so I would just be wary of, uh, you know, most, these things aren't going to kill you, but you don't want to give them to your, to your wife, you know? Uh, in addition, I did some more research and some of the, like if you have like temperature abused rice, you can get, uh, be serious, bacillus, serious,
+
+[44:08] because of my favorite words for a pathogen. Uh, and that apparently some strains of it can grow at low temperature. So you really just want to, I wouldn't mess around. What do you guys think? Don't mess around, right? Get a chest freezer. Get a chest freezer, freeze the hell out of everything. But cooking the snot out of everything will get rid of anything that will actually kill you. I don't believe the Interotoxins do life-threatening stuff, but you don't want to, but don't take my word for it. Also, everyone hesitates to make kind of like pronouncements on things like that where, you know, safety is a giant issue. Oh, okay, now back to, before we leave, because we're about to leave here, cutting it short so that these guys don't sweat themselves to death. What is it that I'm going to do, like, what, like, we got to decide this right now. Like if we make, if we make 90,000. I guess I guess I could do the lemonade cleanse, but that's just, that's just an absurdity. That's just a physical challenge. I don't have to learn any new cooking techniques or do anything kind of interesting. It's not like going raw vegan. I mean, that was kind of the be all end all, huh? I mean I could do that again. There's got to be some fad diets, right? Like Paleo, you know, I... You been looking online? I don't know man. You tell me, brother. There's um, there's also stuff like the baby food diet. What the hell is that? I guess you replace 2 meals a date with jars of baby food. Um, replaced. That's just absurd. That's not like that's not like a challenge. It's just ridiculous. It's just like, you know, can I eat something that tastes bad? But it's also, I mean, you're doing some investigation into a diet that actually has some traction with some people in the
+
+[45:38] US. Should we do Paleo? Is Paleo difficult to stick to, though, or is it easy to stick to? Uh, hyper. Do you know what's in the paleod? It's like mostly raw meat, I think. All right, here's the day. All right. If we hit 90,000, I'm gonna do paleo for a week. If we hit 100,000, I'm going to do paleo for a week and then lemonade cleanse for a week. If we do $110,000, I'm going to do raw vegan again for a week, paleo for a week and lemonade cleanse for a week. You got that, guys? Does that sound fair? Yeah, you'll be at your ideal weight in no time. So the question is, you have to do it in order. Like, the worst order would be to do lemonade cleanse, then raw vegan. No, the worst would be worst would be raw vegan, then paleo, then lemonade cleanse, right? That would just be like my body be like, what? What? But here's the thing for those of you that don't know me, or this is the 1st time you're tuning in, whatever. I never, never, never well trying to bet. Let me tell you something. I take bets very seriously. If I say something like this, I'm not gonna I'm not that guy who's gonna sneak in some real people food in the middle of my, like, raw vegan week or in the middle of my Paleo week, right? Like that's not, that's not my style. I'm going to take it. I'm going to go ape on it. I'm gonna report it back on cooking issues. So tell everyone that you want me to suffer for maximum 3 weeks straight on this. And let's get some money and let's get this thing kickstarted. lets get our stuff going. It's important for the museum, which hopefully is going to be important to all of us in the years rolling forward. Thanks for stopping by guys. and cooking issues.
+
+[47:17] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[47:46] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and
+
+[0:07] international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marl, your host of cookies. He's coming to you live from Bubba, Bushwick. Yes, we're blah blah back. Hey, Stas, how you doing? Yeah? Good to have us all here. At the air conditioning, they must have fixed it, huh? Yeah for you. Oh, nice, just for me. So I was like, for me, they just let me sweat my Tokka sauce. Hey, hey, and the engineering guys. We're all here today. How you guys doing? We're good. speaking for everybody. We're good Oh, nice. I like to speak for everyone over there. listen. So, since we last spoke on the air. MoFed made its goal on the Kickstarter. Yeah, in fact, we made it through it. And if you go to the Kickstarter page, you can see what we did and our numbers were actually slightly better than that because a couple of people donated from
+
+[1:17] foundations, you know, personal foundations that can only give checks. So I think it's there too. I'm super excited. And what that means is that in late August, uh,
+
+[1:27] we are actually gonna wheel this sucker out and uh, gonna blow some stuff up on the streets, you know, in front of the
+
+[1:33] kids. Kids love the blowing up stuff, right? And we're going to have, what is the puffing party? Do you remember Stas? August 13th. Yeah, and there's, I believe that there's still space available. I don't know how we're going to sell it. Go to mofad.org. That's mofad.org for more information, but it should be fun. We got a whole bunch of Andy Ricker's gonna be there. A lot of good people. Why are they coming? Uh, yeah. I think so. Anyway, a lot of good people are coming. I want to, if I start mentioning people then that when you mention me,
+
+[1:58] me, me, me, so I'm not going to mention anyone, right? Okay, corner question two, 718-497-2128. 784972128. By the way, we made good enough numbers on it that I have to do that lemonade cleanse. Now, yeah, anyone, what's the exact deal on the lemonade clan? It's 2 tablespoons, fresh squeezed lemon juice, yeah. 2 tablespoons of maple syrup. one-enth teaspoon cayenne pepper and 10 ounces filtered water. You have to drink it 6 or more servings daily. The only other options are a salt water flush of 2 teaspoons salt mixed in a quart of water in the morning, and herbal laxative tea at
+
+[2:31] night if needed. Where do you flush that? Is that go in the in the front end or in the back end, the salt one? After this, you should slowly ease back into eating solid
+
+[2:41] food, starting with items such as vegetable soup, followed by fruits and vegetables. Oh my gracious. How long do they say to do it? 4 to 14 days Yeah, so I'm right in the sweet spot there. Seven days in the sweet spot. That's gonna suck. So, uh, Stas and I have to figure out uh, kind of a week where I don't have to do any cocktail development and where I have no
+
+[2:59] demos. I think it's next week because everybody at MoFED starting, there's next week, and you don't have anything next week. I have no demos, no nothing. So I'll do all my cocktail development and all that this week. Make sure I don't have any dinner engagements to go to. You still have to do the radio show though. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'll be in the middle of a, of a, maybe I'll start Monday. You're starting Paleo next week. No, no. I can't start Paleo in a week because I have to do a lot of research. Back to this. I'm taking Paleo much more seriously than most idiots are going to take Paleo. So like, I already dusted off my old book on Flint mapping, which is the technique of making stone tools. And I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of paleo you want to go. It's kind of absurd to just say something is Paleo because Paleolithic people ate a wide variety of things depending on where they lived, what the climate was, et cetera. So, for instance, if you're going to take Neanderthal culture, Neanderthal culture, primarily meat eating culture, although they did have a wide range of plants that they used, I was reading all the recent literature on studies of the dental calculus and Neanderthals, plus isotopic studies of their bone structure to figure out the relative kind of different things that they ate.
+
+[4:02] Also, huge chunks of Neanderthal, ate that meat kind of raw, which is straight up nasty. Like, imagine giant chunks of kind of raw, like deer, not like thin carpaccia stuff. Anyway, so I might choose a culture to emulate like there's the Ertaburla culture, which is like Swedish culture that was one of the last, you know, pre-agricultural communities in Europe.
+
+[4:26] They had a fairly high fish-based diet, and their tools look relatively easy to manufacture. Anyway, I dusted off the flint napping, flint mapping. I got to learn how to I'm going to learn how to make my own tools. I'm meant to do it with Dax a while ago, but it just looks too damn complicated. Now I guess I have a reason to do it. So I have to do a bunch of research before I can do the actual paleo one. We're going to have to, same with the raw food. Remember I did raw food? Uh, for, like, like very short, almost had to do the raw food again. I'm glad I didn't have that one added to it. So I'm going to do the lemonade cleanse 1st because I don't have to do any research for that one, right? So more anyone has any suggestions on the Paleo. Uh, I kind of want to make my own fire as well as my own tools, but my wife said that uh, I couldn't do that, so I don't know
+
+[5:09] whether, I'm either going to have to convince her in slow drips and drafts to let me do it or not. Um, but anyway. So, uh, more more word on exactly kind of which Paleolithic, uh, uh,
+
+[5:19] luckily these, these, uh, Ertobola guys, a lot looked up the list of plant stuff that's been found in their kitchen midden sites. They ate a lot of shellfish, easy for me to get, but also a lot of plants that I can wild forage in the
+
+[5:30] lower East Side. Like, they ate a variant of Lamb's quarters, which I can easily get in the lower east side as a non-domesticated product. Well, we'll see. figure out exactly what the structure is. So yeah, so I can't do Paleo next week. That's the, that's the, the previous was the long explanation of why I can't do Paleo next
+
+[5:48] week, because I want to do it right. If I do it right, it's useful information for us to have for the museum anyway. So there you go. Okay. So real quick from the station too. We've got our huge fundraiser on August 11th, so I hope that the cooking issues fans in New York can make it. But for those that can't, and I know this is a very nationwide show, we're offering a really, really cool
+
+[6:06] raffle. $10 tickets and you can win a dream foodie trip to Seattle. All expenses paid from Tom Douglas, friend of the
+
+[6:15] station, who's got some great restaurants out there. So visit our website or HRN, Hawaii, bbq.eventbright.com, and get some raffle tickets. You're all over the place. Hawaii barbecue and trip to Seattle. Yeah, well you know. It's the Hawaii. It's like the West. It's like on the way, kind of. I guess it's on the way. Can you go direct? Can you go direct? if they want to? Probably. Probably. Anyway. All right, question two. 784972128 that's 784972128 Aaron Morin. It looks like it's pronounced Morant, but they said Morant from Edmonton Alberta, writes in, Dear Zappo's lover and rap hater. So I would be rap hater, and Stas would be Zappo's lover. Although, I have to say, for the record, like, I tease her about Zappos, but she is a firmly committed to the Payless
+
+[7:00] shoe corporation. She purchases all of her shoes from the pit. You know why? She loves that uncured glue smell that they have inside of the
+
+[7:08] pay list. I mean, like, anytime you walk into, you could blindfold someone and and, like, throw them in the middle of a pay list store and they'd be like, because, you know, part of the part of the thing, you know, part of the way you pay less is they don't wait for the glue to dry before they ship the shoes out.
+
+[7:24] You know what I'm saying? And style just grooves on that, you know? She doesn't, she doesn't, you know, she doesn't like the other toxic kind of female things like nail polish and all that stuff. I never smell that stuff in the office, but payless, boom. Okay. Anyway, I'd love to hear Dave talk about micron sizes and how they affect texture on the tongue. I seem to remember hearing that we can detect as little as 50 microns,
+
+[7:45] uh, but that could be way off. What's the difference between a 400 micron super bag and a 101? Why wouldn't you just use a 100 bag for everything? What cheese straining usually at as far as microns are concerned? Thanks in advance, Erin, Moran. Okay. First of all, so Micron is a unit of measure. A micron is 1000th of a millimeter, also called a
+
+[8:09] micrometer, you know, anyway. So microns are typically how you measure things like very small sieves, you know, sieves,
+
+[8:17] sieves. What do you like, sieve or sieve? Sive? Sive? Yeah, okay. Uh, and uh, also like particle size and things like ice cream or chocolate. Now, I have always kind of used as my benchmark for ultimate smoothness on the
+
+[8:32] tongue. This size range that's used in chocolate manufacturer. And chocolate manufacturer, you typically want to get below 20 microns, right? So 21,000ths of a millimeter is about the ultimate large size particle that you want in your chocolate bar before your chocolate bar starts having
+
+[8:52] textural problems on the tongue, right? The stuff's being kind of ultra smooth. And so that's kind of the, the number I always use for kind of below which your tongue can't taste anything
+
+[9:01] anymore. Now, In ice cream, a lot of people point to larger numbers, like 40 microns, as being the maximum ice crystal size that they want in a smooth textured ice cream.
+
+[9:12] I haven't done a lot of studying on that because I've always just accepted that the 20 micron as being the number. Now, Vitaprep, which is the blender that we use, can get particle size is down between 20 and 40 microns. So in the smooth-ish range, but not in the, like, eh, I doubt if you can actually get the 20, but it's a, it's above 20, but it's quite small. I doubt it can get it can't get below 20 to get into the much, much smoother range of stuff. So for that, you need, for that, you need, like a high sheer, super high sheer mixer. But the other thing about it, uh, with a vita prep, is you still need to use a sieve or like a super bag, as you say, because not all of the
+
+[9:52] particles uh, get, you know, blended down to the same thing, especially fibers tend to orient as they
+
+[9:57] go and so you have longer and larger particles that you can taste on the tongue. Now. So clearly, if 40 microns is the cutoff for ice
+
+[10:05] crystals, and your smallest super bag is 100 microns, you're not going to get all of the particles out of something that's finally blended with
+
+[10:14] 100 microns super bag. The other problem is, is that when you put a slurry or a slop or something into a filter, it tends to clog up the filter. And that is kind of one of the main problems in
+
+[10:27] filtration, just for your edification as well, just so you can get an idea of micron size. Uh, coffee filters in general are about 20 microns, the opening and they let through particles, uh, you know, are in the roughly 10 to 15 uh, micron range. So that's kind of what coffee is. So you're talking about chocolate, 20 microns, ice cream crystals, 40 microns, coffee filter, 20 microns, and
+
+[10:51] super bag, like the finest one at 100. Now. Just because it's 100 microns, which is large relative to some of these things, doesn't mean it can't strain out a lot of finer
+
+[11:01] things, because in general, when you're cooking something, you, uh, things tend to aggregate, particles tend to aggregate together, and also larger particles tend to start clogging up the holes, and when that happens, finer particles get filtered out by the larger
+
+[11:14] things. It's called forming a filter bed. So you want to use, in general, the coarsest thing that makes your product as smooth as you want it.
+
+[11:25] Does that make sense to us, right? And so one of the reasons to use multiple filters in a situation, right? If you were to try and shove a liquid through a coffee filter, which is at 20 microns, right? And it's all full of gloppy stuff. Let me just tell you, good luck because you're going to be there all freaking day, right? Trying to get that stuff out of there. So one valid way to do it would be to take a, and by the way, one of the advantages of
+
+[11:50] super bags is that you, the super bags are kind of shaped like pots and they can withstand heat. So you just stick the super bag into the pot, cook the stuff in without ever agitating
+
+[12:00] it. So you're not knocking little particles all around your product, and then you can just lift the whole sucker out and not have a problem. Now, why you might want to use multiple ones is you would put the coarse one inside of the fine one, right? And then as you lifted it, right? Larger particles will be held by by the faster draining course guy and then smaller particles will be held up in the finer guy and you would be able to filter stuff much more quickly. So often when I'm filtering something. I'll take 2 different levels of filtration and stack them, course first, then fine, because it just rapidly increases the rate at which you can filter things. And that's a huge deal when you're doing large quantities of product to take a long time to filter. Um, Does this make any sense, though? Yes. Yeah. Anyway, like, actually, it's interesting. I just wrote the section of the cocktail book on clarification, and I went through filtration, which I really hate. hate filtering things. Um, I also tend, and, you know, I've never actually used, since this little, you know, whatever disclaimer. I've never used the actual expensive super bags. I always use paint straining bags, which are also micron rated because as anyone that's met me
+
+[13:06] nose. I'm a cheap bastard, right? That's very true. Super cheap. Well, gosh, no one's cheaper than Nastasia. That's not true. You are. I am not cheaper than you. You are so much cheaper than that. When was the last time I returned a piece of clothing? Yeah, that's not that's not cheap if it's something else. I know what I'm talking about. All right, right. Fair enough. Okay. Matthew writes in regarding pork rinds. Hate, Nastasia, and crew. I had to drink at Booker and Dax for the 1st time recently, tried the hatchback and it was killer, strong and delicious. I wouldn't be mad if I had a stockpile of those and the Bible Manhattans up in my refrigerator. And then here's the question. Well, thank you. I was wondering if it is possible to make a puffed chicharone from bacon skin. My company goes through boatloads of slab bacon every week, and besides making stock with the skin, I'd be thrilled to find another use, thanks, Matthew. I don't see why you can't do it. I mean, what I would do is cut off the skins, right? The only issue you're going to have is if you have a cure that has a lot of sugar in it, sugar is the enemy of pork rinds. And many, many times I've made pork limes. A couple of times I've tried to add sugar to the boil water when you when you make it, and it's just a free nightmare. It's just a it's just a real giant nightmare. So if you want to make kind of American snack food style pork rinds, here's what you're going to want to do, cut
+
+[14:22] the, you know, take the bacon skins off, you're going to want to boil them in water. I don't know how much salt you're going to have to add. Depends on the residual salt level of your bacon, but you want, you know, enough salt in there so that when you puff them, you don't have to add a lot of extra salt and the flavor's already in the
+
+[14:37] skin. You might want to add a couple cubes of bacon or whatever to keep the smoky
+
+[14:41] flavor or else keep the water level down so you're not diluting the smoke that's in the skins too much. You want to cook them for a long time. Uh, like 45 minutes or something like that. Simmer them, tell you, because the goal here is to convert all of the
+
+[14:57] collagen, or roughly all of the collagen, to gelatin. Now, here comes the part that I hate doing. You got to gently drain them off because right now, because they're hot gelatin with a little bit of other stuff mixed in. In fact, they're extremely fragile at this point. So you want to let drain them off and then put them on cooling racks and cool them down till they are fridge temperature. Let them cool. They will reset and become a lot less fragile. Now, the super unpleasant part, you flip them fat side up and you scrape down the excess fat on the backside of the
+
+[15:32] pork of the pork skin. Now, if you don't scrape the less fat you scrape off, the denser your chicharron will be. And the more you scrape off down to the skin, don't scrape the skin, but the fat layer. The more you scrape off, the puffier and more like snack bag pork lines your pork rinds are
+
+[15:51] going to be. After you do that, after you scrape it down. Now you want to chop them into the size. everyone makes them a little bit larger. They don't realize quite how much they're going to puff when they puff up. Uh, so, you know, make a couple different sizes. The 1st time you do it so you can kind of see what's going to go on. Now you're going to want to dehydrate them. The real trick here is not to overdehydrate. You want to dehydrate them till they're down to like a shrinky dink. Or like pasta and no more. So what you do is you throw them in a dehydrator. I throw them in, usually I start them kind of high, like at 135 degrees Fahrenheit, run the dehydrator for a
+
+[16:24] while, and I look at it. When it starts losing the white rawhide look and starts, starts going translucent, I usually turn the temperature down, and then, um, I never let them run when I'm gone from the kitchen, I'd rather just do the initial dehydration and kind of turn it off overnight or turn it down to like a 100 or 90 overnight or something like that and just let it run with the fan on it and not extra heating and it should carry it the rest of the
+
+[16:48] way. Do a test fry. And once you do a test fry on one or two. If it, if when you fry it, it doesn't puff at all and just browns without puffing. What's happened is, is you've overdehydrated it and you need to get some moisture back into it, which is very difficult. If you, if it puffs somewhat, but the inside has a hard kernel in it, then it's not dehydrated enough
+
+[17:10] yet and you have to do more. So you gotta, you gotta, you know, just run that test. Once you do it once or twice, you'll get the exact feel of what the pork rind should feel like when they're done. Uh, and then you just store them in a core container airtight and they're good for a long time until they until they go rancid. They last for a long, they last for a long, long, long time. But, uh, what I would do is do it once or twice yourself and then get someone else to do it because, uh, it sucks. Yeah? Remember how like our, I mean, maybe it's better with bacon. But you remember how like we would all stink stars like like pork skin? like a freaking glue factory? It's nasty. Anyway, let's take a commercial break coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[17:56] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[18:18] fete accompli for us to support heritage radio network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com.
+
+[18:41] Yo, Jack, did he say idiot career? Um, yes, you did. This is Joe, but he, yeah, I think he's got a little self-deprecating streak in there, right? Yeah, newfound respect. I love someone who calls their actually quite influential. I mean, the man has a hugely influential, uh, has had a hugely huge influence on the cheese on the cheese movement here in the
+
+[19:03] US. I mean, giant influence. Yeah, I mean, I personally would not say it's an idiot career, but, you know, I'm not him. I mean, I'm kind of glad he had that career. I mean, people nowadays, because like, you know, like, you know, it's not easy. But you can go out and get, you know, decent cheese in many, many places across the country now. Forget that when he 1st wrote his cheese primer, you know,
+
+[19:24] Fairway, there was a number of places you could buy high quality cheese in New York, but even a lot of the places that had large selections weren't keeping the stuff as well as they were keeping it at Fairway.
+
+[19:35] They weren't providing, uh, a product kind of as same quality level, a fairway was providing. This is like decades ago. And so he, you know, he wrote the cheese primer was kind of a game changer, big deal. anyway. My feeling. Brandon Hodgins writes in about Bratwurst. You like some bratwurst rice, says? Yeah, Bratworth's good stuff. When you were at, where did you go when you went to Germany? You went to Germany? You got a lot of worst? God, I love German divorced. Something about German voice. They can get the, you know, the skins on them, they pop when you bite into them and then that explosion of juice and fat from a delicious worst. Oh my god. So good. Anyone that hates on kind of Teutonic cuisine, German cuisine, like, okay, if you're not a sausage lover, if you don't like cartofu
+
+[20:19] poofers or like potato pancakes or you don't like it, but stuff is straight up delicious. I'm sorry. Sorry. Uh, okay. Hello, cooking issues team. I had a few brats questions. How many brats per zippy? In other words, if you're going to cook Bratwurst, low temperature, and you're going to pre-cook them in a Ziploc bag, which is something I very highly recommend,
+
+[20:39] right, how many can you fit in? Well, I guess it depends on exactly what size the broads are, but I would
+
+[20:44] guess, it also depends on how you're going to serve. If you plan on doing mass service out, then I usually put like, uh, and I want to say 5 probably. I use gallon size bags, like 5 or six. I'm trying to imagine how many brats would fit. You can only fit one in a direction. You know what I'm saying, stars? Like, you can't fit two. So you probably 5 or 6 maybe, then a little bit of oil or fat, and then do the water seal on the
+
+[21:09] brats, cook them off at like 60 I usually do, 60 Celsius, which is like 140 Fahrenheit, which is still like, you know, pinkish and a little underdone. But remember, you're going to grill them off when you're done. You know what I'm saying? Um, So I would say about that. And how long can I hold them in a bath before the texture goes off long time on
+
+[21:28] bratwurst. You can hold those suckers a long time. I mean, I've never held them longer than a whole service, which is like, you know, 6 hours or something like that. But I'm, but they, at the end, they were just as good as they were at the beginning. So, in other words, for those of you that don't know, when you're doing low temperature cooking and you're holding meat for a long time, it doesn't overcook, in a traditional sense, it doesn't get tough or dry. What happens is the texture gets a little bit mushy. Uh, and I haven't had that happen in like the length of a service when I'm cooking something like
+
+[21:57] uh, like rots, you know? And they also initially think about brats, they cook through rather quickly because they're not that thick. you know what I'm saying? So, it's a fantastic thing to do, just get a grill, like a 1000000000 freaking degrees. And then, uh, and then have your your broads and zippies and and and go. Okay. But I will also say this. If you want to do more traditional, or in other words, if you don't want to use zippies for whatever reason, you can actually cook brats off in a circulator in an open bath style, but even if you're
+
+[22:26] going to do beer brats, right? What I recommend doing is a pre-make kind of a beer stock out of it. So just get some, like, sacrifice a couple of the brat words, brat words, break them up and cook them off in the beer so that the beer soaks up brat flavor.
+
+[22:41] And then eventually the broth gets to the point where it's not adding or subtracting bratness from the bratwurst because I remember
+
+[22:51] once, uh, I forget who it was. Do you remember, really with me at the time styles, when I had to do the hot dog water thing for some magazine? What magazine was that? Some magazine was like, hey, is the hot dog water in a New York City dirty dog? Is that safe? Is it safe? So I went and and, you know, we gave the guy like 2 bucks or something like that and I was like, I don't want a hot
+
+[23:09] dog. Just give me a cup of hot dog water, please. And the guy was like, 2 bucks is 2 bucks. So he hands us a cup of hot dog water. First thing we did is shoved a thermometer and had to determine that in fact, it is at a safe holding temperature, right? And then I drank it to see kind of what I thought the flavor stuff was, you know,
+
+[23:25] the flavor profile was going to change with the hot dog based on holding it in the water. And the good news from a flavor standpoint is that because the guy was cooking hot dogs all day, the broth tasted more like a hot dog than a straight hot dog did. It was crazy. It was like, it was like the liquid essence of hot dog, much better than when the interns made that hot dog vodka, which sucked. Okay. But the, um, So anyway, so that's another thing you can circulate, just put like a wrap some cheesecloth around your circulator in case something breaks, you
+
+[23:50] know, want to get it sucked in and circulate, uh, circulate beer or, you know, broad stock, and then you can keep it in that. And the good news with that is you don't need to bust open these bags all the time. And you can just take, you know, load brats in one side, load them out the other. And that's the way I would do it if you're going to do, let's say, 400. You know what I mean, in a day or something like that. Because then you just have your trough running. You load in the front, just keep pushing FIFO. By the time you pull the ones out of the front, the ones in the back are cooked out and you're good to go. Yeah? Makes sense? Okay. What is my favorite sauerkraut? Well, I mean, my favorite purchased sauerkraut is that you can get in any kind of
+
+[24:29] supermarket lining supermarket. In like Whole Foods is bubbies. I think bubbies is delicious sauerkraut. You guys like bubbies out there? Yeah, I'm getting some nods, getting some nods. Bubby is delicious sauerkraut. The pickle guys, there's a couple, I live in the little East side of New York. So there's a bunch of, you know, there's a couple pickles places, and the pickle guys, which are on Essex Street and just south of Grand, also have a delicious sauerkraut, which they sell by the
+
+[24:56] court. I love that stuff. Sauerkraut, also extremely easy to make yourself. Anyone who's ever tasted an actual straight fermented, non-pasteurized, i.e. never
+
+[25:07] heated with no preservatives added sauerkraut, hasn't tasted sauerkraut the way I like it.
+
+[25:15] Now, I like traditional, like, kind of like chicrout where they cook the stuff off with pork and all that crap, but just like a super fresh, and this is the one raw food thing that I was actually happy to eat when I was on my raw food diet was like pounds and pounds of uh, kind of unpasteurized,
+
+[25:29] uncooked uh, new crowd they call it. pretty fresh. You't need to soak it before night because it doesn't have a lot of salt in it. It has enough salt to, you know, make it sourpraut, but anyway, so look for bubbies. And if you taste bubbies, you know what I like. And then, you know, find other ones or make ones, uh, like yourself. You know what strange sounds? I actually like, you know, I've made red cabbage sauerkraut and white cabbage sauerkraut. I think I prefer the white. Do you prefer white cabbage to red cabbage? I do. I think it tastes better. That's my feeling Anyway, okay. Tom Fisher writes in regarding ice cream. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe. First, congratulations on funding the MoFad Kickstarter. Can't wait to get my puff pack this fall. Me neither. Jen's like my wife, she kicked in money aside from me. She's like, I won my t-shirt and toe bag. Stas is just going to Stas is going to like just stockpile those things like a chipmunk. It's kind of like stuff them in her cheeks like a chipmunk. Oh, speaking of Booker's hamster died. Yeah, I know. Yeah, sad, right? Yep, kids 1st pet, dead. Okay. And how do I get to do that? It's nothing to do with cooking. Okay, I'm a big fan of ice creams and I've been making much more since I've got my centrifusion can make much fresher tasting juices for ice cream without chunks of fruit.
+
+[26:41] Does anyone really like chunky ice cream stars, do you? No. You know what's disappointing is like, do you, like, here's the thing, like, I want to like things that have, like, chunks of fruit in, but texturally they're irritating. You know what I mean? Those chunks, because they're always kind of stringy. And then that little gummy things separates off from the fruit where the fruit and the ice cream mix. And nastache is making her chunky ice cream face very closely related to her vegan
+
+[27:03] face. extremely closely related. Only a real Kanye Shanty of Stas's nasty faces can tell the difference between the chunky ice cream face and the vegan face.
+
+[27:13] Anyway, I'm curious about flavoring ice cream with fruit juices. I assume the citrus ice creams won't work due to high acid content. Is there a way around this? Is there any technical reason there aren't more diversity in ice cream flavors? I never see watermelon, pomegranate, grape, apple cherry, blackberry, or blueberry ice creams. Is this just for historical cultural reasons, or is there any reason these fruits won't work? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Well, I mean, so if you want to look, don't look to ice
+
+[27:39] cream, right, for what you're talking about, look to sherbet. You like sherbet, Staz? Yeah, it's good, right? And I think one of the reasons is a lot of the flavors that you're talking about, if you're
+
+[27:49] going to make a highly flavored item, you're going to have to add so much of that juice, that there's not enough room left in the liquid base of your ice cream to make it ice cream
+
+[28:01] anymore. Right? So, I mean, you know, if a traditional ice cream texture, you know,
+
+[28:06] is for me, uh, you know, half, you know, like 500 mils milk, 500 mils cream,
+
+[28:12] uh, 10 egg yolks, and 170 grams of sugar plus flavor, right? So if you were, how are you going to do that, when you're adding a lot of fruit juice to it, unless you're using concentrates. And if you're using concentrates, you can get away with it. And I've done that quite a bit, like you can, I mean, okay, whatever. I know this is going to sound like, you know, real kind of lowbrow. But if you go buy Welch's, uh, grape concentrate in the store, it's extremely high bricks, like 66, you
+
+[28:38] can, you can formulate a fairly good straight ice cream out of that, uh,
+
+[28:42] by uh, upping the cream content, has a little bit lower milk solids, but whatever. So, but traditionally, the milk-based product that you make, um, with high fruit contents are sherbets and they have all of those different flavors in them and they have milk. The trick is adding your acidic products right right before you
+
+[28:59] freeze, because what you don't want to have happen, is you don't want the milk might curdle, whatever, but you don't want it to curdle and form large particles in it before you churn it,
+
+[29:12] right? The other alternative. Uh, you could do, which tastes delicious, but please don't freaking call it ice cream is like a FroYo thing where the whole thing's already set. Don't you hate it when people tried it? like, they're like, this stuff tastes like ice cream. No, it doesn't. It tastes like frozen yogurt, which is delicious, but it's not ice cream. You freaking hate that style? No tangents. I like ice cream. I like FroYo, though. Do you like Froyo? Yes, I do. Okay. So anyway, so yes, you can acidify it, and there's plenty of recipes out there for things like lemon ice cream.
+
+[29:40] The reason is lemon. You can add in small enough quantities if you add zest and or, you know, extract and
+
+[29:47] juice. It'll sucker a kernel, but you can, you can add enough of it to not throw off your ice cream balance and still get the flavor.
+
+[29:56] So look at sherbet recipes for these kinds of things. think you're going to find what you want. They typically, because they have less fat in them and lower milk solids content, lower solids content in general compared to ice
+
+[30:04] cream. They tend to have a higher sugar content in them than most ice creams. Another thing you can formulate that's really, really, really freaking good is
+
+[30:12] uh, coconut milk uh, based uh, sorbets with uh, with fruit juices. And I do that all the time, like, you know, get a can of coconut cream, actually. And, for instance, passionfruit juice, bang, ice, you know, sorbet. Good. So anyway, so I would do that. If you want, if you're worried about it, you can also stabilize your ice cream. stabilize your base. So make your base, your milk-based base, milk or cream-based base. By the way, most people make sherbets with milk, just because I think it's cheaper and it's supposed to be kind of a lighter product, but you could just make it with cream instead of with milk.
+
+[30:48] And so basically cream and fruit juice and sugar and get it done. So I was like, I don't care about ice cream. Anyway, so give that a try and tell me, tell me kind of what happens, right? Yeah. Okay. Now, we got a call in from Schinderhannes, one of our earliest readers on the cooking issues blog. Did he expect us to answer this on the air, or is this just in general? I don't think he listens to the show. I think he's just a blog reader. Anyway, this goes out to Schinderhannes. He says, hey, Nastasia, you are the only person whose email address I have found from the orbit of Dave Arnold.
+
+[31:21] Like that? Okay. I posted a comment on the Bangkok daiquiri post and cooking issues, but I fear it might be overlooked since the blog is hibernating a
+
+[31:28] bit. I know, I know. Here's a wild idea of mine. Have you ever tried de-gassing your spirits? before we get into this, Bangkok daiquiri is the kind of the 1st thing I put on the menu at Booker
+
+[31:41] and Dax. They use a technique called nitro modeling and nitro modeling is where you take an herb
+
+[31:47] in case of the Bangkok daiquiri, it's Thai basil, which I love, you add liquid nitrogen to
+
+[31:52] it, and you crush it to a fine powder, and then you add liquor to it. And the reason you do that is because what you want to do is get all the alcohol into the
+
+[32:02] leaf before it thaws out. If you don't, the polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the leaf will instantly turn the tie basil kind of a black color. It'll taste oxidized and crappy and swampy. And the same thing happens with a lot of other, you know, leaves, like mints, other kinds of bit, any kind of herb like that that blackens when you crush it. You know, instead of muddling it, we nitro muddle it. Nital muddling also makes a particle size extremely small, which means that you get a very, very fast infusion of flavor and you get these
+
+[32:33] brilliant, brilliant colors out of nitro muddling. So if you do purple basil, you get these incredibly purple drinks. Thai basil is like a bright, bright green. And so it's a really good technique for that. Now, uh, one of the things is, is if you take spirits, right, regular spirits, and you just blend them in a blender with uh, basil, you can get a similar result, but there's a lot of oxygen that's whipped into it before the alcohol
+
+[32:59] can uh, before the alcohol can take uh, nuke the polyphenyl oxidase enzymes. And so it's a slightly more oxidized flavor than you would get if you make it with nitro model. Anyway, so that's the background on what we're talking about with Bangkok backwards. Okay. Schinderhannes writes. Have you ever tried de-gassing your spirits? All common solvents contain dissolved oxygen. In many sensitive chemical reactions. It is a major problem. Schinderhannes is a chemist, by the way. Uh, okay. What you need to do is de-gas the solvents. The simplest way to do this is to bubble Argon gas through it for like 10 minutes with a thin tube or syringe needle. It rips out all the other gases and saturates the liquid with inert argon. If you want to speed it up, you can do it in a sonicator, which is an ultrasonic bath, cleaner. Okay. This eliminates some molecular oxygen that many enzymes need to do their dirty work. Okay. Also, argon is a lot heavier than air, so a layer of argon is formed in the bottle of degas solvent that nicely protects it. After pouring some liquor, simply exchange the air in the bottle with new argon, the remaining stuff in the bottle stays de-gassed. This might further improve the quality of sensitive cocktails. You might even want to fill the headspace of sensitive cocktails in high glasses with argon. Unfortunately, I do not have time to try this. Maybe it is a bummer and schnapps without oxygen, tastes awfully lame. That's a good point. How much oxygen does it affect the flavor? But maybe it is the next big thing, and you will find bottles of argon can be bought for tig welding or for scuba diving. is real cheap. We'll be in every pub, starting with Booker and Dax in no time. Thanks a bunch. Schinderhannes. Okay. I have not tried that. I mean, there's um, There's a, there's a, that new product that uses Argon to purge the headspaces of
+
+[34:37] uh, wine bottles so that they don't go bad. I've tried that. I've tried nitrogen bubbling as a distillation technique because
+
+[34:45] if you bubble long enough, the gas out. You keep making a new headspace above it and so you can strip flavor. My only thing is, I'd be wonder, I wonder, like, uh, how much flavor stripping you get out of the product through the initial 10 minutes of
+
+[35:00] the public. I would think not much because in my, in my testing, when I was trying to see whether I could do flavor distillation with nitrogen as opposed to using, um,
+
+[35:10] normal, like rotary evaporation, it was very, very inefficient from a time standpoint to get the stuff.
+
+[35:16] So I would assume that you wouldn't lose that much through the initial bubbling. I don't know. It would be interesting because then what you could do is like, uh, you could actually do probably a long-term infusion of something like, uh,
+
+[35:27] herbs. I don't know. I have to test it. What you think, Stas? Yep. She's like, I don't care. I don't care. All right. All right. So, uh, that has a good, a good call in from uh, Schinderhannes. And I'm looking, Stas is tapping on her arm. Again, Stas, people out there don't give rats behind about what we have to
+
+[35:51] do today. Your time is valuable. I wish I wish I wish other people thought my time was valuable. You give a lot to your listeners Yeah, they have to. Yeah, right, right, yeah, whatever. Okay, listen. So, uh, maybe next week I'm going to be on the lemonade cleanse. So maybe next week, I'm going to sound like a lunatic when I'm talking because I'll be high on maple syrup and
+
+[36:09] lemons. You're not doing anything, right? You don't play those kind of games. What's Peter going to be doing? special K, I think? Which not the drug, not ketamine. It's, uh... Replaced 2 meals with special cake. That's a wussy. anyone can do that. Stas and I were looking at each other. were like, I could just eat one meal a day. We basically eat. Yeah, well, it's crazy. Whatever. And what is Emma doing? A cowboy died, I don't know. all beans? I'm not sure don't know. Whatever. Anyway. So I'll do the lemonade cleanse 1st because that's the easiest one for me to just wrap my
+
+[36:40] mind around. In fact, I already have everything in the house to do it. You know? Are you allowed to do anything fun with it? Can I carbonate it? No, no, nothing. Okay, can I drink water? I don't think so. Holy crap, I can't drink water. I can only drink this crap. read you the rules. You do salt water. Oh, great, thanks. Can I add salt to the lemon maple syrup crap? No. Hey, you know what? As much as you relish me messing myself up, you have to deal with me all next week. Oh, I am not looking forward to it. All right. Well, anyway, well, back to you next week. Probably with a wild eyed, crazy lemonade fuel, Dave, on cooking issues.
+
+[37:27] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[37:55] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York
+
+[0:04] City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit Fairwaymarket.com, you are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues, Dave, are on your host of Bridges coming to you live from Roberto's Pizzeria. on the Heritage River Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How you doing, Stas and I? Good. Yeah. Yeah. You're doing better than I. How you doing? Great. Yeah, uh, you know, we made the uh, we made the Kickstarter uh, goal. Plus, we made an additional $20,000 plus over the Kickstarter goal, which means that I have to do the lemonade
+
+[0:57] diet and then at some point in the future, do the do the paleo diet. So what you're hearing is me uncorking my court container of crappy lemonade. By the way, I heard I missed some calls because I was a little late, kind of as usual. So I'll call you a question with two, 718-4972128 that's 718-4972128. Uh, have Eddie here, uh, filming these proceedings for posterity, so maybe your call will be filmed, although you will
+
+[1:24] not, because you will be at home. How you doing, Eddie? Me too. doing well. We got Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Good, and you were pretty energetic for being on that lemonade cleanse. Well, let me get intro. I mean, let me tell you something about the lemonade. So for those of you that thankfully don't know what this is. The master cleanse was devised by a nut, a nut job. named Stanley Stanley, I think, Burrows, sometime in the 40s and was republicized in the 70s of the last century.
+
+[1:52] And, uh, yeah, I went I went ahead and read, here's the premise. You don't want to eat anything. You want to cleanse your body? His 1st premise is that all ills are due to this thing he calls
+
+[2:03] a toxemia, which is a buildup of toxins in the body, right? So in fact, he doesn't believe that there are such things as dangerous germs or viruses or microbes. Take that AIDS. you know, take that cholera, anything, right? The guy doesn't believe in this. He believes that all kind of bad things that happen to us are caused by a
+
+[2:21] buildup of toxins that we take in into our bodies, which is on its face absurd. And then he, uh, furthermore, says that really what you need to do is clean out these things. And so he has devised a cleanse that he thinks will clean you out and get rid of all the toxic stuff and
+
+[2:39] fix literally whatever ails you. He believes that this will fix whatever ails you. So it's, it's um, uh, for every 60 ounces of water, uh, purified or spring, you know,
+
+[2:50] water. You need 3 quarters of a cup of organic, fresh, fresh. Of course, I mean, I believe in this part. Lemon, or actually lime juice, does. You know you could use lime juice? No, you could do lime juice, possible. Because, as he says, lemons have more vitamins in them than any other fruit known to man, which is a lie. And then maple syrup, or organic, preferably grade beef. 3 quarters of the cup, because it also apparently has all sorts of terrific stuff in it. And lastly, but not leastly, some ground up cayenne pepper because I think he believes that, you know, if it's hot going, it's going to come hot coming out, clean you out. You know what I'm saying? He doesn't believe you need any protein in your diet because he literally believes that like leguminous
+
+[3:41] trees, we have nitrogen fixing bacteria in us that allow us to obtain nitrogen out of the
+
+[3:46] air and then synthesize all the necessary proteins out of it. So he believes that you can go on this lemonade cleanse for uh, for 40 days if you want to. By the way, Stas, I tried my for salt water purge this morning. How was it? horrible. It tastes horrible. It's horrible. Anyway, and these nutjobs also believe you should not use iodized salt because they believe that somehow it stops it from cleansing you out. Believe me, if you pound a liter of, you know, seawater style salty water, you'll get cleaned out mighty, mighty quick. But, one last thing yesterday, I did have a nightmarish headache because I am a coffee drinker. So caffeine, if you withdraw from caffeine, you get a nightmarish headache. And so I guess this is part of the quote unquote toxins leaving my body. But the problem is, is that the whole, the whole concept behind this diet is that somehow that you have an adversarial relationship to the food you eat
+
+[4:38] and to the life you live and to everything about who you are as a person. And it is true that if I don't have coffee for a day or 2 afterwards, I will have headache until my body clears itself of its desire to have caffeine.
+
+[4:50] But this is not a monkey I want to get off my back. I can't wait to get back on caffeine, not because I need it, because I like coffee. And because decaffeinated coffee. Sorry, everyone out there. This doesn't taste the same. It's not the same. I'm side by side in coffees where people are like, hey man, you can't tell the difference. I can. I can, believe me, because I'm not drinking like milked out like milk extravaganzas, right? I drink like short, straight espresso shots. That's what I drink and I drink it because I like it. So I will go back to drinking it as soon as it's humanly possible. Also, have it, Styles, you remember, you know what it's like when you eat too much candy? It's like so much candy and how you have like that sugar high. That's what it feels like to be on this master cleanse because it literally is just,
+
+[5:38] is just, uh, you're on a sugar high the entire time. It's because you're eating nothing but sugar in the form of maple syrup. frigging nuts. Anyway, let me what are you reading, by the way, Stas? Nothing. Nothing. I'm listening to you. just staring at the page. But what's the book? Sex, drugs, and rock and roll. By Judy who's Judy McGuire. Oh, Junior Maguire. She's a co-host of the Mike and Judy show. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's great. We love her. Good. It's cool book. Yeah. Well, this is just, I just mentioned that because it's on videotape here, and I want you guys to know what nostalgia is actually doing. I've heard all this class. I like what you're doing. I like what you're doing. I like what, you know, what you actually do. No you didn't because I hadn't done the salt stuff yet. And I hadn't reported any of it back. You haven't heard any of it, actually. I hadn't read the Burrows. No, I hadn't read it yet. No, no, I just want people to know out there. Now record it on videotape. Exactly what goes on in the cooking use program. Okay, Adam called on a follow-up from last week. Just want to thank you to take time for answering my question on last week's podcast. You'd be pleased to, this is the person who, um, who was asking whether they could save this stuff at the back of their fridge because the wife is pregnant
+
+[6:42] now. Remember? Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer my question on last week's podcast. You'll be pleased to know I threw out the stock and stewed fruit, although I'm still surprised there isn't a more scientific way to determine the food safety
+
+[6:52] refrigerated items. Thanks again for the program. I've learned a lot. Cheers, Adam. Ryan Berkeley writes in about hams. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and I'm going to add Joe and Eddie. I impulsively ordered a whole country ham several months ago from Finchfield Farms
+
+[7:05] in Kentucky's. Actually, scratch that, I actually ordered 2 country hams due to an accidental click. You know, you shouldn't be able to do that. You shouldn't be, yeah, like, is it because I think that happens to us at Booker and Dax because our internet is so slow that you hit click a couple of times. You ever double bought something? No. Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed. Anyway. But don't worry. Anyway, the problem is I don't have a meat slicer, and it seems a little silly to order one just to eat these hams and cutting them
+
+[7:26] with a chef's knife has been a nightmare even after I do a bit of amateur sharpening. What's the best way to cut up this ham other than buying a meat slicer? Should I get a longer knife? How about some kind of holder apparatus for the ham or maybe just take my 7 inch chef's knife in for a proper sharpening? Thanks for any guidance. Ryan from Berkeley, California. Well, 1st of all, congratulations on the purchase of a good hand. Finchfield makes an excellent ham. I visited their plant once. They are, they do like a semi-ambient cure where it's ambient, you know, in other words, not temperature
+
+[7:54] controlled during the 1st portion of it. They, they used to anyway. I't know if they still do this, but they really only cure one time a year and then they run out. Good product all around a good. Also, memory serves a non-smoke, not a smoked ham. Uh, and I'm trying to remember. I think believe they also do bag cures. So the hams are wrapped in bags as they're being cured for a portion of time. Anyways, good hams. Seven inch chef's knife is not the tool to attack this with. First of all, go out and get a longer chef's knife for this sort of deal anyway,
+
+[8:24] but what you're going to want to do is get a thin blade slicer. I don't do not. I do not recommend any meat slicer on, I've ever used other than a professional meat slicer. The little ones that they sell their their crap. I mean, pardon me if anyone out there sells them for a living, but they're crap. They don't work. You know what I mean? At least the ones that I've used. They just don't work. What you're going to want to, like, look, a professional meat slicer is super, super baller.
+
+[8:51] It's awesome, right? But they're very big. You have to clean them and it's not so easy. And sometimes newer ones are easier to clean the Hobart model 3000 slicers, easy to clean, but it's very expensive. So, uh, here's what you should probably do. Traditional old school, now, in America, we've come to eat our hands like this, cut cross crossways, right? The way you normally would get prosciutto, if you go to a deli, cut crossways. And this produces a cross section of what's going on in the muscle and it's very tender and comes apart. But European advocates have European ham folk have long advocated for slicing the long way. So you get a little piece of a bunch of different muscles and you can get these long strips. They are a lot chewier. But I had an expert make me some the other day and it was quite good. But got to remember, European hams are not cured in the same way that ours are in the way that they're hung.
+
+[9:50] So they don't have the same necessarily slicing characteristics because they're not the same shape. Finchville and other hams are hung with the point with the with the hawk and down so that the cushion, that big part of the meat kind of gets full and fills up because it's more normal for it to be served American style that way.
+
+[10:06] What I recommend you do is, um, debone the ham or cut the cushion off the top of the ham and then use the separate piece, use the pieces on the bottom for different, and then once you have it as a more manageable piece, trim away a portion of the skin, make sure it's very cold when you slice it, and then you can slice off thin, thin slices with a, uh, like a long, flat slicing knife, which are, they're flat, they're easy, like one that's meant for slicing knife, but
+
+[10:34] that, like any long slicing knife. But you're going to want significantly longer because you want long draws on it. You don't want to do a lot of sawing on it. So you're gonna want to get one that's long, like 14 inches or more. I haven't measured one recently, but long. And if you're going to attack something with a chef's knife, you're going to want, I mean, with a ham, it doesn't really matter. You don't need a long chef's knife because there's no place you can really get into it with it, but go ahead and next,
+
+[10:59] you know, super gift giving holiday, like invest in a suite. You know, they used to say in all the Mac cooking magazines, you know, you know, an 8 an 8 inch knife is good enough, whatever. Let me tell you something. Once you get yourself a good 10 inch chef's knife, good quality
+
+[11:14] one, right? That feels good in your hand. And I don't care whether you prefer Japanese, Western, Japanese, or Western style knives. Uh, like my, one of my favorite, believe it or not, is a, is an old French style sabotier, like really old carbon. But once you start like using a 10 inch knife, such a joy, right? Oh, for sure. Yeah, 10 inch knife. Got to love a tennis knife. Go for ten-ish. Anyway, I hope that helps. And by the way, just keep eating the ham a little bit every day. That's what I do. Like, ham, like, little scraps and stuff, like, ham and eggs, like, no one's ever made a better combination than country ham and eggs. I don't think. I don't think so. Anyway. Peter writes in another follow-up. I'm the fellow from Minnesota that dropped the call dropped the call on you 2 weeks ago. Sorry about that. The answer to your follow question. I remember he was asking about different ways to treat deer meat because he got a lot of deer meat in Minnesota, which is a problem I wish I had here in New York.
+
+[12:07] To answer your follow question, we get a range of deer throughout the season. So you'll get anything from fawns to old does. When you put them in the bag, the gaming flavor has been a bit intense, and as such, I've been using pretty strong sauces to counter them. think juniper berries with current preserves. Do you have any other strong flavor combinations that could hold up to the gamey power of an old dough? Well, it's an interesting question. I mean, usually, uh, when you're talking about gamey flavor, uh, people recommend like the pre-soak in some sort of an acidic, uh,
+
+[12:31] married, but I haven't been able to elucidate the chemistry of it, uh, of why, I mean, I don't
+
+[12:36] know, I don't know that it's a similar chemistry to what happens with, uh, for instance, fish, uh, when you add vinegar on
+
+[12:42] the minute, kind of uh, deactivating some of the nasty smells that are
+
+[12:46] there. I don't really know. But it's universal. I wasn't, I read, I went back and reread after the hunt, which is John's
+
+[12:51] Folsest book on Louisiana game cookery, and didn't find any sort of stuff. I mean, a lot of what I read about the taste of gaminess and deer has to do with, Well, there's natural gaminess because deer has a flavors. Thank God, it's delicious. But there's also kind of an off flavor that can have it based on slaughtering and kill steps. And I read a number of scholarly papers that were not very helpful because all they basically said was stuff that you already knew, which is you need to chill the sucker down very quickly and that a lot of bad deer flavor comes from the fact that the deer hangs out in the back of a pickup truck too long before it can get cooled down.
+
+[13:23] But the other interesting thing they said was that in general, people prefer, check this out. So between does and bucks, right? People prefer does and does are slightly more tender, at least in the studies that I've read. There's one contradictory study out of Poland, but most of the ones said that. And even furthermore, they have a different, um, kind of a flavor breakdown, but I
+
+[13:46] can't, I, I don't know whether it's due to diet. They study didn't go that far. But interestingly, although younger does were preferred to older does. older does are preferred to younger bucks, even though the younger bucks are probably more tender. People just preferred the dome. Strange, right? What happened? Oh, we'll get back to some more deer stuff in a minute. Color, you're on the air. Hello, hi, this is Stephen Benzinger from Indianapolis. are you guys today? Doing all right. Indianapolis? It's uh, it's pretty good. The weather's actually nice out here for once. Um, so uh, question for you. I am uh, cooking for somebody who is neutropenic at this point. Uh, and I was curious. You know, is the neutropenic diet, something that's... Now, hook me up. Give us a neutropenic. Okay, so when you take chemotherapy, uh, if you have like
+
+[14:35] a leukemia or something, it wipes out your, uh, essentially wipes out your bone marrow, so you cannot produce white blood cells, you have no, no real immune system. So, uh, food safety at this point is extremely extremely important. Yes. Um, and so, uh, I was curious on your opinion about, uh, 1st of all, uh, some safe practices, like maybe boiling pork containers before making soups
+
+[14:58] or, or whatever, uh, that I could do in this situation, uh, also, I was curious
+
+[15:03] about, uh, yogurt. And, uh, because it has a lot of bacterial cultures. Uh, but they're good bacteria and everything I read says don't give neutropenic yogurt, but because of competitive growth, I would assume that there was no uh, pathogens in there, but I'm not sure. This is an interesting question. Okay, so let me just say at the get go, not having studied the problem. I like I'm going to hesitate to make any actual pronouncement here. So the only dietary restriction is absolutely nothing that would compromise the immune system. There's no dietary restrictions from a food standpoint. Right. Okay. Right. So it's kind of just like a very hyper version of what you would do with a pregnant person, right? Exactly, yeah. I was listening to a few of your podcasts and everything that I heard about pregnant people. I was applying to the situation, kind of, but I'm still. Right. I mean, if you want to serve somebody like super safe, just as
+
+[15:58] a note, I'll say the same thing I say when I talk about, um, um, cooking for pregnant people. As immersion circulator is a fantastic investment, for, I don't know if you already have one, but an immersion circulator is a fantastic investment for, for
+
+[16:11] this, for this sort of diet because, now, I don't go pushing the, don't go pushing the edges. Do you know what I'm saying, but like. Right, don't try the 54 degree stuff, maybe, or... Okay. Right, exactly. So don't push, don't push the envelope. But, you know, all of a sudden for this person, you can cook, uh, you know, a bunch of stuff that is, uh, you know,
+
+[16:35] amazing that they can't otherwise have because they have to cook the crap out of it. So, I mean, I would definitely focus on things like 62
+
+[16:44] degree, eggs, applications like that. You know, you're going to be more careful than the otherwise, other people would be about making sure there's no cross-contamination, stuff like this.
+
+[16:55] But you have the ability then to serve this person, foods that they couldn't ordinarily get when they were when they were out. Now, with yogurt, I mean, my initial inclination is that you're
+
+[17:09] right. There's competitive bacteria in yogurt that are going to prevent most
+
+[17:15] pathogenic you know, pathogens from growing in it. But if the, if the, here's the issue. A lot of doctors out there will just say, no, you can't have it. Why? Because they haven't done the research. And so rather than tell you, no, you can't have it, because I haven't done the research, I would say that if someone has said you can't use it, I would go and see why they said you can't use it, right? I mean, I'm all for making an informed decision on this, but I don't know all the factors. So it could be that some doctor out there who has a lot of knowledge, and maybe even some clinical experience, has seen problems with yogurt and patients who are on chemotherapy, right? And so, and I don't know that. But I've seen it go the other way too, where doctors have made knee jerk responses to questions about foods just because they don't have a lot of food information.
+
+[18:04] They're not cooks. They're not, they don't study this thing. They don't really know much about food. And so I can't make a statement about it one way or the other, except for figure out what the source is and then make a judgment. I mean, I have no problem overruling a doctor who just speaks from a knee jerk perspective. You know. But on the other hand, I've had it go the other way where people are like, no,
+
+[18:26] I've, you know, I've seen actually clinical problems because of X, Y, or Z.
+
+[18:30] Now, when it comes to boiling core containers. Core containers can very easily stand up to boiling liquids. So that's not going to, in fact, you know, it can't, actually, interestingly, is the lids. The lids are made from a different material than the core container themselves. The core containers of polyproplane, it can easily stand up to boiling water. In fact, I don't believe they'll melt down even in a pressure cooker, although I think you're getting close. I have to look it up. Whereas the lids are made of polyethylene, which melt at a much lower temperature, which is why when you nuke stuff in cork containers, the lids expand and blow up and the containers are fine.
+
+[19:04] So you're going to have a difficult time sterilizing lids, of core containers with boiling water. I would just use a sanitizing solution, if you're worried about it. If your soups are extremely hot, they should self, uh, self, uh, obliterate whatever. Yeah, right. But it's a very good idea. Uh, to keep a uh, sanitizing solution bucket around the kitchen and just be ultra aware during this time of cross-contamination and making sure that things aren't dripping on each other, making sure things are
+
+[19:34] um, sanitized properly. I mean, if you can, you know, if you can, I mean, I don't know what you make,
+
+[19:40] but, you know, presumably, you know, because you're worried about it, you're going to do a good job, assuming that you're being vigilant. you know what I mean? Right, right. Definitely. And um, do you give time for like uh, one or 2 more questions? Sure, excuse me. Okay, uh, 1st one, the, the, I'm actually building the, um, uh, I'm uh, I'm uh, about to be a med student, so I'm not going to have a lot of money. So especially building the immersion circulator from the uh, Seattle food geek website. Um, and I was wondering if you thought that that one was a good model besides the fact that if you
+
+[20:12] turn it on outside of the water, it overheats and blows up. essentially, but. Yeah Well, you can fix that, you know, by just strapping an
+
+[20:20] over-temp, um, an over-temp thermometer to the heating element. Which one is that? Is that the one that's built in the acrylic case? Yes, it is, yeah. We're trying to figure out a different thing for the acrylic because I don't have a lot of time to build it and people that are building it for me or not as familiar with how to heat the acrylic to bend it and I've never done it either. So, you know, just in case we're trying to figure out a better box for it than the acrylic. But um... What's the total cost of it when you're done? Uh, 70 bucks? 80 bucks? That's pretty cheap. Uh, that's pretty cheap. I mean, uh, uh, I've never used I've never used it. I've used only commercial circulators and ones I've built myself. I'll say that the ones I built myself. Uh, you know, like the 1st one I built was with, you know, coffee, you know, immersion coffee
+
+[21:11] heaters, and they leak electricity. And so I got shocked whenever my hand went into the bath, but, you know,
+
+[21:16] the temperature equipment, temperature monitor equipment now being what it is. I mean, you're going to be able to get the accuracy with a home. So you're not from a safety standpoint, you're not going to have a problem. It's just a question of whether or not you like the usability of it compared to a, you know, compared to a standard one. But look, if it's the only thing you can afford to get, it's 80 bucks, do it. You know, do it. And, uh, and, uh, you know, the, I've seen a couple where people have found like kind of prefab boxes that were used for other things that kind of work. You know what I mean? Just drill a few extra holes in them or something like that. Yeah, when you're drilling acrylic, you got to be careful drilling acrylic. When you're drilling acrylic, it has a tendency to shatter because acrylic is very shatter prone as opposed to other things like
+
+[21:59] Lex hand. Also, you can't wash acrylic with alcohol because it crazes and goes nuts.
+
+[22:05] When you're drilling with acrylic, you're going to want to get a special drill bit that has a different point. It's much more pointy, and you're going to want to make sure that you have the acrylic backed up with a piece of wood or something else so that
+
+[22:16] there's, it doesn't flex a lot as the drill bit goes through. And it's going to prevent shattering because it's really irritating. And once you shatter a piece of acrylic, you're going to keep propagating that crack, especially if it's at a stress point. Okay. Would it help to keep the acrylic before joining? No, no, no. In fact, no. In fact, the problem is it heats and gums and then your drill bit catches and then it cracks. I would just, I mean, if you can, I would put it even in water on top of a block of wood and go through it. Acrylic, I'm just, I'm telling you, is acrylic, like acrylic drills beautifully when you do it right, but then, you know, when you stop paying attention is when you, you know, drill a hole through it and
+
+[22:53] you shoot a crack across it. You know what I mean? Okay. Okay. And I have one more quick question. I'm sorry to take up so much of your time. Uh, but, uh, I was curious about, uh, if you, so, I have another friend that's going gluten-free, and I'm giving them suggestions for thickeners, like zanpen gums, and
+
+[23:08] agra agra and things like that to replace, uh, you know, starches that are, um, that are, you know, that have gluten
+
+[23:15] in them, like we, we, flowers and things, uh, but I was curious if, uh, what was the source? You were talking about one time, but there was a source from national starch or something like that was, that was just, like 100%, uh, um, amylopectin or something like that. That
+
+[23:30] was... I mean, I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but the National Starch Corporation, other than having an awesome name, National Starch,
+
+[23:39] was they have a lot of different starches that are specifically geared towards certain
+
+[23:46] things, and they are very aware of gluten because it's a huge business. So they have a, you know, they have a lot of knowledge about it. And a lot of their databases are online. So depending on your particular application, I'm sure, you know, they, if they don't have a starch that'll fit what you need, then probably nobody has a starch that will fit what you need.
+
+[24:04] I mean, they they are, I mean, they come by their name honestly, National Starch. Awesome. Thank you very much, David. App appreciate it. All right, have a good one. You have another car. Oh you too. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, uh, Jarvis. I was calling from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hey, what's up, Milwaukee? No, I've never been to Milwaukee. been near Milwaukee. We've never been to it. Yeah, come down. Yeah? I mean, like, I mean, I drink the beer. I own the tools, but other than that, yeah. Uh, I had a question uh, regarding uh, sausages. Um, our owner has a farm that has uh, Megalitza pigs, and uh, we're trying, I'm trying to make Italian sausages out of it. But what's happening is, uh, the sausages themselves are coming out really
+
+[24:49] fatty, um, because of the fat content. I mean, I'm still, I'm using uh Michael Ruleman's uh charcuterie uh
+
+[24:56] book uh for the Italian sausage recipe. Um, but uh, what happens is after I taste it, um, I hang them to dry. Uh, I do prick them, um, and then when I, I need to render it in the hotel pan 1st to get the, uh, to get the initial fat off, but when I put it on the grill,
+
+[25:14] um, there's still more fat to come off, um, and then also, uh, the casing splits as well. So I was wondering the question about the, the, the actual sausage and then the casing as well as how do I make a hard, nice sturdy, crispy, uh, casing, um, on the
+
+[25:33] grill. Well, you know, I actually, the casing problem is when I wish I had studied more. I was just talking about this with Nastasia, how the Germans make the greatest sausage casings, right? Yeah, that snap of a good sausage casing when you bite into it and the meat just explodes. awesome. But okay, so we'll get back to that in a sec. 1st of all, what's the diet? are they being fed kind of a standard grain diet? Are they being, what are these pigs being fed? What's the characteristic of the fat? Is it a hard fat or is it really soft fat before you process it? Well, it, uh, it is kind of, it, it, it kind of melts in my hand if we, if you don't work fast in a room temperature kitchen. Right. Uh, so it is kind of, it's kind of softer. It's not that soft though. That makes sense. Yeah, it does. So, I mean, for sausage production, a lot of times, you're going to want a little bit of a firmer fat just because, well, it depends also. Everything look, everything depends. When you're having, like when people are making salumi, which like dried stuff, they want that, like the nice stuff that really stands up
+
+[26:38] to the, you know, so they, they, you know, they prize. So that's why things like the Bayota fed, um, like with this really soft, uh, fat, uh,
+
+[26:49] Ibiricos, they make awesome hams, but harder to make straight dried sauce. It's awesome. I love their dried sauce. Please don't call me and say that they don't make a good. I'm not saying that. But like the texture of the fats, a little bit more difficult. I think, you know, one thing is, are you really chilling the heck out of the meat before you grind it? Uh, I guess, I guess not. I mean, I put it in the cooler until I need it. Uh, it is cold. It's definitely not, not warm or, uh, you know,
+
+[27:18] my, my hand is definitely not as warm as, I mean, it's, it's cold. Yeah, but it's not like, you know, it's not like deep shield, um, where the surface is starting to seal up a little bit, but I mean, I guess I could leave it in there a little bit longer. I could put it in the freezer for a for a 2nd just to kind of give it a deep chill but not freeze it. Yeah, yeah, you know, so when I'm making sausage, especially if I use a softer fat or like if I'm using a non-pig
+
+[27:43] fat, like duck fat or something like that, you need, you need to get it really, really cold. Otherwise, um, and, and, you know, as I believe it might even say in the charcuterie book, uh, you know, it's hard to tell when you're making a
+
+[27:58] sausage what's happened to the fat during the grinding process. You can only really tell once it cooks and you start bleeding out a lot of the fat that otherwise stay in. So what I would do is, um, I would, I usually pre-slice
+
+[28:11] the, the meat into the strips that I'm going to feed into the grinder. Then I lay them out on sheet trays. And then I throw the sheet trays in the freezer and I wait until they get basically
+
+[28:21] pliable but hard, right? Almost par frozen. And then, and then I feed them in. And if it takes me too long, I'll even have a couple of ice chips to, I know you don't want to add water, but I'm saying, just keep that sucker cold. Also, if you're using one of the big meat grinders, I would I would throw all the parts in ice water before you grind. Like pull your meat grinder apart, throw it nice water, get that whole sucker cold before you grind. So then, you know, flick all the extra water off, put it together, take your par frozen meat, grind it in. And my guess is that's going to take care of 90% of your problems. That's my guess. Now, on the casings breaking apart, are they breaking when they're, are they breaking on the drying step or when you grill them? When we when I grill them? Yeah. I mean, if a sausage isn't like full, like, typically I will pre-cook a sausage before I, uh, before I hit it on a
+
+[29:16] grill, just because you're going to get much less splitting. I mean, the best way you could do it in a combi, you could do it in, um, you could do it. I was using the, sorry, I was using the circulator. Yeah, perfect. 60 degrees for an hour. That's great. So you did it like that, pulled it out, and they were still breaking apart on you on the grill? Uh-huh, correct. Huh. Uh, I don't know. Maybe it's just maybe with the, I don't know, I have to think about that. Usually, well usually that's a recipe for keeping it together. It's like too much air in there, maybe? when the stuffing process? He said he said he pricked them, though, and got the air out. It's either air or maybe the fat bubbling out, maybe moisture content, but you said you dried off the stuff. I don't I don't see why I don't see why unless they're mechanically damaged. Like, obviously everybody knows if you try to cook a sausage from raw on the grill, you're going to break the skin.
+
+[30:05] everybody knows this. But if you pre-cooked like that, and they're not broken when they come out of the circulator, right? No. Maybe try a little less drying time before you grill them off. I don't know. I don't know. I have to think about it. Maybe someone else who has some experience in this can troubleshoot that, but I think I've solved your fat bleeding problem. I think you just Yeah, that would help a lot. Yeah, everyone, everyone tends to underestimate how cold they want their meat to be, and the answer is very, very cold. But even when I paddle, uh, you know, the recipe calls for you to paddle the, uh, the
+
+[30:43] vinegar, um, into the, uh, into the grind after you grind it, uh, that's
+
+[30:48] gonna bring the temperature down a bit, but I should also put the bowl and the paddle into the freezer as well. Yeah, everything should be, everything should be like just cold. And in fact, the most, like, so, like, there's 2, so when you're grind, when you're grinding sausage is like the 1st time when, like, everything can go to hell in a
+
+[31:06] ham basket in this situation, right? And also, I mean, I find that like pre-cutting the meat into strips like that and setting them out, like gives me another opportunity to make sure I'm not putting crap. I dont want my sausage, but like pieces of grizzle or whatever, because I don't like to put that in, even though I know you can, whatever. I don't like to do it. And then, uh, the 2nd time you can mess stuff up is either on the primary bind when you're mixing it together if you really want to bind the sausage a
+
+[31:30] lot or if you're doing, um, if you're doing uh, an emulsification step for an emulsified sausage. And both of those it heats the enemy. I guarantee you that's what's happening. But I'm pretty sure that what's happening to you is happening at the grinding stage. All right? Good luck with this. Let us know what happens. Alrighty. Hey, Dave. Yes. So we've got another caller, but really quick, I want to shout out somebody who became a member, a listener of cooking issues. Irene Lee, and she had a really nice message. I thought I'd pass along. She said, I thought you guys might be entertained to hear that we usually listen to cooking issues while we're on our way to and from
+
+[32:04] Restaurant Depot, which I assume you're familiar with. The place is a real bummer. No one knows how to park. No one can face all their barcodes the same way, and a lot of the food is scary, like really freaky and weird, but it's part of our reality because it's our best option for dry goods,
+
+[32:18] paper and cleaning supplies. Is she from Boston? that Irene from Boston that we have a question in from later? I believe so. Yeah, it is. She is from Boston, yeah. Nice. All right. So thanks to Irene for becoming a member. And then real quick, like listeners of cooking issues who can't make our big fundraiser, August 11th, which is going to be
+
+[32:34] awesome and we'll all be there. You can get $10 raffle tickets, which is for a dream trip to
+
+[32:39] Seattle. All expenses paid, flight, hotel, 3 meals of your choice at Tom Douglas restaurants. So that's from Chef Tom Douglas out there in Seattle. So it's HRN, Hawaiian, BBQ.eventbright.com for raffle tickets. Nice. Yeah. And we have a call. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Andrew from Chicago. How's going? All right, all right. How you doing? My question. The guy who's having the problem with the sausage, you think there's any issues overstuffing and just putting too much pressure on the casing? It could be. I hadn't I hadn't thought of that. It's yeah, it's definitely a possibility. I mean, you're from Chicago, you're not from Butcher Packer, are you? I buy from Butcher Packer, but not from them, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just maybe thinking, like, someone else, the same guy who was asking about deer before is stocking out his butcher supply
+
+[33:30] stuff, because he's going to, they're going to be butchering more deer this year. And I was thinking, he's like, do you have any recommendations for other stuff I need for sausage stuffers and stuff, but I've only ever really used the... I only ever used like the 5 and I guess the £10 guys, the crank guys, so I don't really know anything about bigger ones than that. Do you have any experience with that? Not a bigger one. I just needed a big, bigger one, but, uh, those, those Craig suffers, you know, even if they're kind of,
+
+[33:58] they seem to work great. You know, I've had, I've had a lot of success. Yeah, me too. I've used the expensive ones and I've used the cheap ones from grizzly and the cheap ones from grizzly seem to work. Yeah, they work fine. You know what I don't like are the ones that look like the ones that look like weird horns. Yeah, never use those. Yeah, no. I mean, me neither, but I just don't like them. I saw I've seen them. And so I guess I'm also, well, you know, while we're talking, I'm answering part of Peter's question. But yeah, I don't like those suckers. But so, and another thing, I think that most people, when you're going to set up a big butchery thing, get a bandsaw. I don't see that on the list of stuff. Get a bandsaw. Everyone loves a bandsaw, right? Extremely dangerous in the kitchen because people don't think about how dangerous they
+
+[34:43] are and it will cut your finger off as fast as it will cut off a, you know, a rib. But if you are accustomed to woodshops and you know how, you know, danger works, then I think a bandsaw is a
+
+[34:55] good thing to get for your butcher setup. You know how danger works. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, swear to God, if you're going to slice up a bunch of hams, like, especially country hams, bandsaw. Anyway, so what was your, do you have a question or you just talking sausage with me? Wait, hold on a sec. You're cutting out a little bit. hold on a sec. Start again. Yeah, I, uh, I wrote in. I'm the guy who goes to Alabama sometimes to go fishing. I did the Ec Jimmy on the bluefish. Oh, beautiful. years ago. Nice. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't get any bluefish is here. It's kind of a crappy fishing year, but I did get a like a £35 big drum redfish, which was great. And, um, it's, uh, it's a little tough. You know, the bigger they get, obviously the tougher they get. And so I was thinking about doing it low temp for tenderization, uh, doing kind of a test with 4 chunks over a 5 hour period, you know, tested at one, two, 3, and 4 hours. Does that seem like good? have you ever had an experience with uh big tough fish tenderizing them? Yeah, well, low tub cooking. Well, okay, so I mean, the problem with fish and low temp cooking is that usually, for most fish, uh, you cook them for a long time, but they don't get better, they just get kind of mushy, so they don't
+
+[36:05] get, yeah they don't get tenderer. In other words, like the hardness is still there, but it's just also mushy. There are a couple fish that can stand long cooking times, like stripers. I know stripers can take long cooking times in circulators and they're one of the few fish. I think tastes okay at higher temperatures, like 57 Celsius, which is like 135. So like, you know, like that's the kind of fish that usually I'll cook a long time. It's also luckily the fish that I usually get in larger sizes, like 36, 40 inch stripers. And I cook them whole and you need to cook them a long time because they're tough. you know, sorry, no, you need to cook them a long time because they're large. Yeah, right. Because they're large. They also tend to get tough when they're big, but it's good because you're not overcooking
+
+[36:50] them. So if you're cutting something into fillets, I don't think there's any reason to cook it for a long time. When you cook it through it and you should be done. Now, prove me wrong. Like, please, you know, cook cook it, but I find that most fish when cooked for a long time tends to degrade.
+
+[37:06] rather rapidly. Like, I don't really like salmon. It's cooked more than like 20 minutes or so. Uh, you know, even, you know, in a cirque, if I'm doing like a higher thing, like if I'm doing like 50, 50 uh, in change for like a cold poached thing, you know what I mean? Where I'm going to cool it back down, so I'm going to cook it through. I still don't, you know, like it cooked too long. No. Unless you go all the way the other side, you can. I'm thinking maybe, you know, maybe it's more along the lines of the stripe. I'm thinking it's definitely more along the lines of the striker than it would be of a salmon. Right. Yeah, I'll give it a shot and let you know. I'll tell you, a Striper can take 2.5 hours while you're waiting for the center to cook through
+
+[37:47] because like the larger ones that I cook take 2.5 , 3 hours to cook through at 57 and they
+
+[37:54] don't they don't turn to crap. They're fine. So if you need to cook it that long. Yeah, yeah. So, and, you know, also I fry the outside. But, like, if, you know, if, you know, they can take it. it will work. All right, cool. I'll give a shot. Thanks very much. Thank you. Take care. I love those experiments you did with thank you, Jimmy, last year. They were awesome. Okay. So I think do we answer like Peter's question on the, on the, well, before we
+
+[38:19] go back, like if you're from Minnesota and you're interested in hunting, you got to get the
+
+[38:26] bull moose cookbook, which was a cookbook by Christian Herder back in way back in the day, he owned an outdoor shop and he had a couple of
+
+[38:34] cookbooks, they are wildly inaccurate. He was like crazy, probably a misogynist. I don't know. I know he had some very unchoice things to say about Hollywood starlets in his book, but his book is the craziest cookbook, one of the craziest cookbooks I've ever read. Complete nut bag. Uh, and like interspersed with like how to, uh, how to, uh, you know, get a tortoise to stick
+
+[38:58] its, uh, head out when you cut its head off answers, of course, to shove your finger and it's behind. But it's an interesting book to read. If you are a hunter and from Minnesota, because it's part of your Minnesota hunting heritage. Okay. So, on to Lucas, who now lives in Nairobi. Hey, longtime listener for Australia, who's living in Nairobi at the moment. St lived in Nairobi for a while, right? Yeah. How long were you there? How long ago? Yeah? Yeah, never been to Kenya. What? Right before you. Yeah, never been to Kenya. So, and okay. This brings up my 1st question. When I got over here, a few people told me it's much harder to bake at altitude. Is this true? Can you describe why altitude might cause difficulty in getting breads and or cakes to rise? I've had little trouble. Bread comes out, different to at home, but I put that down to different quality ingredients. The flour, the star is not the same. So for me, yeast frozen items are fine, and I haven't tried chemical rising agents yet. Okay, look, as far as I can tell, Nairobi is at 17, 195 meters, which is 5,889 feet. At that altitude. Water will boil at 937 Celsius or 200.7 Fahrenheit. Now, listen, that is true. And so things that are boiled tend to cook longer, but that's not the biggest deal. The fact of the matter is that also water is going to evaporate at a much more ferocious rate. So, uh, things just operate in in different ways. Uh, I would go to the um, Colorado State.edu. They have a whole thing on altitude baking and what to do with it. And King Arthur Flower actually has an interesting thing because they're a flower company. But the upshot is that gas bubbles are going to expand more quickly. So you generally use less leavening agent, as you go up higher. Also, because things evaporate faster, right in the oven, they will, because the oven is the temperature of the oven is, and the humidity is lower. So the water inside is going to evaporate faster. As that happens, it's going to create more steam much more quickly, right? So, things tend to rise more and pop more. It's also harder to get things to boil, et cetera. So, according to Colorado State, high altitude has its most pronounced effect on the rising time of
+
+[41:09] bread, at high altitudes, the rising period is shortened since the development of a good flavor and bread partially depends on the length of the rising period.
+
+[41:15] It is well maintained that period. Punching down the dough twice gives the time for the flavor to develop or perhaps just use less freaking yeast, right? In addition, flowers tend to be drier and thus absorb more liquid in high dry climates. Therefore, less flour may be needed to make the dough a proper consistency, right? Just makes sense. Secondly, I've really liked darker sugar and pretty much everything, if you're going to add sweetness, why not add flavor at the same time? Uh, says Lucas. And I think so as well. I like some dark sugar. Not always, sometimes. If you're adding a darker sugar in place of more refined sugar, for example, find muscovado in place of castor, are the sweetest levels the same or is more refined sugar sweeter per volume? Um, keep up the uh, keep up the good work. Enjoy the show. Cheers, Lucas. All right, well, volume is a... So, okay, so on a weight basis, brown sugars are technically a little bit less sweet than sugar because they have non-sucrose stuff in
+
+[42:08] them like ash and other things that are making them brown. Now, the most hardcore brown sugar, you can get in the Codex alimenters where you looked up with is still 88% straight sugar, right?
+
+[42:20] That's, like, including the water that's in it and the most molasses, most dark brown, and that's high. That's higher than any of the actual stats I've read on brands that I could find. So you're looking at something that's roughly the same sweetness as sugar on a weight basis. Now, volume basis has a lot to do with density. Now, the brown sugar that you buy, you know, domino, brand, brown sugar that we buy here in the States is about the same
+
+[42:42] uh, one-to-one sweetness, uh, as regular, refined, uh, granulated sugar on a volumetric basis, but it just packed brown sugar.
+
+[42:54] But it just happens to be that way. If you were to have a sugar of a different density, it would be wildly different. That's why I always recommend going on a weight basis with sugar, right? Wait basis. So the answer is yes and no. Okay. Irene wrote in, same Irene, I think, Jack, right? From the, uh, Mei Mei, the Mei Street Kitchen. There's, in fact, a meme restaurant outside of my house, and it's called the new meme kitchen, and I'm assuming, Irene, that yours is of much higher quality than the one outside my house. Dear Cookie Issues Crew, greeting from Irene, writing new from Boston. I run a fruit truck called May Street Kitchen with my brother, Andy, Sister Margaret, and the partner, Max. We do a bunch, we do a bunch of local sourcing whole pigs and the like, and we're opening our restaurant later this summer and hope you can come visit us one day. Our staff loves the show and the blog, so thanks for being cool and teaching us lots of cool stuff. Also, congrats on the Kickstarter. We're eagerly awaiting our puff pack and are super happy for you guys. So good supporter, right? Strong. I'll be in Boston actually in early September for a little bit. I might have my dog with me, though, so I don't know if you have outdoor seating. My question today is about MSG. We don't use it in our food or at home, but we don't mind eating it. It drives us nuts when people complain about it like nastasia, for instance. The number one complainer is our mom who claims she gets headaches and can taste it in the cheap Chinese food we occasionally eat.
+
+[44:10] She is both a doctor and of Chinese descent, so you can imagine that it is a tricky topic around the house. We've considered just sneaking it into her food and then surprise attacking her with the truth, but I still live in her house, so that seems inadvisable. Do you know of any particularly legit or academic scientific work on the MSG myth that we can share with her? She's read a few pop sci articles and the stuff in Huff Poe and Salon, and they didn't really do it for her. Any help was much appreciated. All the best. Irene and Mei May Street Kitchen. PS. Sometimes when we're having a bad day. We re-listen to your rant about wraps. Thanks for that. That was a good rant, actually. Okay, here's what you want, Irene. First of all, look up the article, the Chinese restaurant syndrome, an anecdote revisited in 1986 Food and Chemical Toxicology, where it describes the history of Chinese
+
+[44:56] restaurant syndrome. In brief, in 1968, Dr. Robert Homan Kwok, we counted a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine, his experience of a strange syndrome, whenever he ate in a Chinese restaurant. He reported his experience one of numbness beginning at the back of the neck, radiating to the arms and back and accompanied by weakness and palpitations. He suggested that the cause might be some component of the cooking wine, the high salt content of the
+
+[45:17] northern Chinese food, or the monosodium glutamate that was used. This letter triggered a deluge of similar anecdotes and focused attention on MSG as the causative agent. However, back then it wasn't MSG. It was called Chinese Restaurant Syndrome. And in fact, I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with the fact that people who were eating stuff that wasn't
+
+[45:36] used, they weren't used to, or if, for instance, they go to a Chinese restaurant and pound all of the stuff without having any rice. It's not salted. They're pounding a boatload of sodium, just my ¢2 But here's another interesting thing from that paper. When the study population was screened to identify those who claim to have heard of
+
+[45:53] Chinese restaurant syndrome and believe that they knew what it was, it was found that those subjects had a rate of reporting CRS type symptoms that was 10 times greater than the general population, and an equally greater rate of reporting
+
+[46:06] nonspecific syndrome is presumably from this group of dyspeptic individuals that the majority of Chinese restaurant syndrome anecdotes arise.
+
+[46:14] So, uh, the nice way of saying in your in your head. Now I'm not insulting your mom. I'm not insulting your mom here. Don't take it that way. A lot of papers later that were really, there's been a lot of papers. The papers that have found that there is a problem, uh, have a couple with, with, uh,
+
+[46:30] monosolum glutamate have a couple of issues. A lot of them are that they don't successfully mask the taste of MSG and the studies that they do. The best paper I know from an earlier date that kind of disproves really kind of strong kaboom that there's no problem
+
+[46:45] that proves that there's no problem on it. So glutamate is from Dr. Terasov in 1993. Modasodium, el glutamate, a double blind study and review, which is like baller. They put the Montessellium glutamate into gel caps, blew the gel caps off, did a double blind controlled placebo thing, and showed, in fact, that there's nothing wrong with MSG. There's someone who wrote a criticism of their, uh, of that article, and then he came out, he or she, I don't actually, maybe it's a she, I don't know, Dr. Tarasov came out and with a, with a, with a rejoinder to that called another case of glutamania, uh,
+
+[47:18] and also in 1993. And I will just read it very quickly because it is intensely awesome because it's one of the, and I said it before the last time I went off an MSG. like you see the scientists like totally dropping the glove and just being like, listen, you D-bags. Here's what here's what it is. And give this one to your mom, have her read it. I'll just look up, look up another case of glutamania by Dr.
+
+[47:40] Tarasov, T-A-R-A-S-O-F-F. I think it was 93, although it might have been a year later or so. Okay, another case of glutamania, and this is from the article. MSG is an amino acid found in all foods and sometimes termed free glutamate or glutamate. All organs in the human body contain MSG as it is found in the bloodstream. Boom. But the boom is mine. By far, the highest levels are found in parts of the brain. The brain is protected from the bloodstream by the blood brain barrier, which is largely impervious to incoming MSG. The brain synthesizes its own glutamate from glucose. This is an excitatory neurotransmitter, namely, you need glutamate to think, a fact which is worthwhile pondering. Boom. also mine. The brain eliminates its used glutamic acid by conversion to
+
+[48:28] glutamine, which can cross the blood brain barrier. That is, the brain is a net exporter of MSG. The notions of exogenous and endogenous MSG are only relevant around the blood brain
+
+[48:38] barrier outside their biologically equivalent. The turnover of MSG in the body is approximately 5 to 10 grand per hour, since it is readily transaminated to alpha ketoglutarate, which is used in the
+
+[48:50] creb cycle for conversion to energy in several organs. Zoie. When plasma levels are increased by huge doses of MSG, in the absence of food, they return to basil levels in less than 2 hours. Unrealistically large doses can elicit mild transient sensations such as lightheadedness, stiffness, tightness, weakness of the limbs, and warmth, and burning of the skin
+
+[49:07] face or scalp in some subjects. It should be emphasized if such effects are caused by very fast consumption in several
+
+[49:14] minutes. In the absence of food and do not reflect a realistic eating situation. The world health organization lift its numerical limits on the use of MSG in 1987. And more recently, the American Medical Association did not support labeling requirements for food containing
+
+[49:28] free glutamine. MSG, here's it, boom, boom, boom. MSG is ubiquitous in vegetable and meats as it is in the human body. To comprehend the issues, it is easiest to start by considering some foods which do not contain MSG, pure salt and white sugar. The crystal and MSG that is added to foods is made by a fermentation process which produces the identical optical isomer found in quote unquote natural foods. Chemically, it is the monohydrate of the sodium salt of R2 amino
+
+[49:54] Pentani. I can't pronounce it. pen, pen, e, dioic acid. The concentration in tomatoes can be as high as .34%. Foods containing fermented, autoized, or hydrolized proteins contain much higher concentrations of amino acids. These include Parmesan cheese at equivalent of one. 5% MSG, soy sauce, and an equivalent of one. 3% MSG. So, boomity, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I hope that helps with your mom. You think that's going to help, Eddie? Yeah, it's pretty pretty hardcore stuff. Okay. Do we have we have time for a couple, a little bit? Wait, one. One? Jack, can we stay on for a couple minutes? Or Joe? No one's there, so we can do whatever we want. Bang. Alex writing about pressure cookers. My wife recently gave me a pressure cooker which I've been delightedly using to make delicious recipes. Actually, she claims to have been unduly influenced by our unborn child on the grounds that she would never deliberately give me more kitchen stuff. I've been thrilled with the results so far, but the cooker was, as we shall say, a thrifty
+
+[50:51] purchase, and I am somewhat dubious that it performs as well as a more robust model like the coon recon. Specifically, I wonder whether it gets up to the full 15 PSI call for by the recipes. Is there any way for me to tell what kind of pressure it gets up to and how to modify these recipes to compensate for this? Thanks, and keep up the good work. Alex. Alright, Alex, you know. I feel you, man. You got the present from the wife. So you can't ditch it and get the get the higher quality one. It's all right. Listen. Unfortunately, there's no way easy. I don't know what brand you have if, you know, but you can do things like go on cooking issues on our pressure cooker
+
+[51:27] tests and we do eggs at different temperatures for different lengths of time and you can kind of gauge by the browning that you get, whether or not you're at a full 15 PSI or you could borrow someone's pressure cooker and cook like two, either 2 eggs in them, hard-boiled eggs in them for like an hour and check the pressure
+
+[51:43] differences or sweeten condensed milk, you can see whether or not they turn brown. Like, they'll say the leche at the same
+
+[51:49] rate, but unless you want to tap into that sucker, I don't know how you're going to be able to test the pressure. One thing I'll say, most pressure cookers that aren't the coon recon, they need to be venting actively for them to be at
+
+[52:00] pressure. So it's not just that little yellow button popping up that indicates pressure, it's actual venting of steam that indicates pressure. But, uh, yeah, I know it's tough. It's tough. You got the present. you't say, I love it, honey, but I wish I had the coon recon. It doesn't work. You know what I mean? It doesn't work. Uh, okay. James writes quickly about stretchy ice cream. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, and the booth crew. I like that booth crew, like that booth crew. We are the booth crew. You know, that song. All right. I've tried making Dave stretchy potato ice cream. When it works, it hits it out of the park. The stretchiness adds to the sensation of creaminess without becoming too sweet. However, anytime I vary the recipe or even occasionally when I follow the cooking issues, blog recipe, it fails to gain stretch. Have you done any more tests with this? They haven't made it into the blog. Cheers, James. Well, I've tested it and I've, no, I haven't. I've tested it and had it not work when I've used other than Idaho, you know, other than like Russet Burbank style potatoes. I've had it fail with mealy, like kind of potatoes from
+
+[52:55] Colombia, these potato creollos. So I think, uh, you know, I've had it fail when, uh, I let it store too long or when the potatoes have been sitting around too long, when the starch retrograde is too much. So I have had it fail, but I haven't done any more research, but, you know, but let me know exactly what happened because maybe we can work this in it. Maybe I can find someone who's, I don't know, who will work on the problem. Also, a good stretchy ice cream is Guar and Lo, and um, Guar and uh, flavor flavor friguar and uh, gelan. That makes a nice stretchy ice cream, but it doesn't have the potato, which I like. I like the potato. I should do more work on it. I'll tell you I'll tell you this. I wasn't able to make it with straight starch. I'll ask Piper. Piper will think about this crap a lot, right? That's the kind of thing Piper's going to sit around instead of doing the work that we're supposed to do, he'll do that kind of stuff, right? Okay. Lastly, we're going to make it all the way through. Johnny writes in about eggs and Easy Whipper. Dave, Nastasi. Joe and Jack, longtime listener. First time question asker. I love the show, blog, and bar. Thanks. And look forward to each new episode. You guys do a tremendous job. Keep up the amazing work. I'm an avid home cook and no matter how many eggs I eat, and I eat a lot, me too. Eggs are good. I can't seem to keep bits of shell consistently out of my eggs when I'm cracking them. Any tips on avoiding this? I've gotten better at fishing them out with a shell. It's like a magnet, but would like to get good at cracking them without so much carnage. Also, I know it's been covered over and over, but can you recommend a particular ISI whipper for rapid infusion for a home cook? All right, on eggs. You know what? I really don't know. I haven't studied this very much. I will say that Jacques Pepin, the famous French chef that, you know, we know, hung out with. We, you know, I call him Jackie Peps. I don't know why sometimes. Jackie Peeves. So he always used to say that you want to crack your shells on a flat surface and not on
+
+[54:34] the not on the edge of your bowl. if you want to avoid shells. I also notice that, obviously, my shell problem is worse when I'm not paying it. When I'm literally like bull cracking one-handed and like breaking them open, that's when I do it. I think a lot has to do, frankly, with the eggs
+
+[54:49] themselves. Some eggs seem to seem to shell out and throw bits of shell a lot more than other ones do. But I don't know. I mean, what do you think? I try the old table crack instead of the bull crack. table crack, you push it to like a china cap as well after you crack. I mean, if you're doing like a scramble, but if you're doing a sunny side up, you're kind of screwed. Yeah, you kind of shafted. Yeah. Yeah, it's problematic. I mean, honestly, like the lower quality, crappy eggs have that problem and the really high quality, thick egg problems have that for different reasons. One, because the shell just disintegrates in your hand and like falls into the other, and the other one, because the shell is so damn strong that sometimes a bit of the membrane, it can come off and go in. I wish I had a good answer on that. But I do have a good one on the ISI for you. So the ISI people themselves, or EC, actually, we've been dealing with, who make the whipped cream containers. They kind of think that you want to use a half a leader whipper. And for home use, a half liter is probably good enough. For a bar, I use a liter. The problem is, if you're going to make a lot of whipped cream, kind of a liter is nice to have. If you're doing infusion, rapid infusion recipes, you might have to use 2 chargers instead of one when you're doing
+
+[55:54] in a liter versus a half liter if you're not changing the recipe to get the pressure up there, but I really don't think that's
+
+[56:00] that big of a deal. The trick, you might have to change a recipe written for a half liter, but you can definitely
+
+[56:04] work it. And if you're at home, the cost of throwing in an extra charger every once in a while isn't big compared to the cost of being not as versatile if you need that one liter to do something,
+
+[56:14] right? So, I mean, if you're in a restaurant and you're doing it every day and you're banging out for service, those chargers add up quick. But, Lee. But if you are doing it at home, it's not such a big deal. So if I only could have one, I would probably have a one liter guy. Now, listen, I didn't mention this. Came up with a new technique the other day for the ISI Whipper. So, in a nutshell, rapid infusion, rapid infusion works this way. You put product in a liquid in an ISI at room temperature. You force the nitrous oxide and the nitrous oxide under pressure, forces the liquid into the product. You shake it around. The pressure also increases the rate at which things come out of the food and
+
+[56:53] into the porous object into your liquids. You then vent it violently after a couple of minutes and stuff boils out and brings the flavor with it. That's how rapid infusion works. Rapid nitrous infusion in anisi, okay? Problem is, you can't use an EC or couldn't use an EC to get the flavors into a product. So, for instance, like the cucumber martinis that I made, like, you know, a 1000000000 years ago, like, you know, when I was 1st starting out in this thing, where I used a vacuum machine to suck the air out of the
+
+[57:18] cucumber and then having it underneath gin and and and gin and vermouth and a little bit of simple. And then when you let the air back in, boom, the air slams the gin into the
+
+[57:29] cucumber, making an awesome looking transparent kind of cucumber martini. That doesn't work in an ISI because the stuff boiling back out of the cucumber makes it look not right and it doesn't have as much of an infusion. So you can't do nice flash pickling in the ISI and have those beautiful results. I figured out a way to do it. Here's what you do. Here's the new technique. I don't know what I'm going to call it, like EC flash pickling or something like that. What you do is, you put the cucumber and the gin, vermouth, a little bit of simple salt, in a
+
+[58:00] sandwich size ziploc bag, right? I cut them into planks, right? Then you roll, I roll 3 of those sandwich ziploc bags with the, with the alcohol in them. And I don't need much. So for 200 grams of planks or for 150 or 180 grams of cucumber planks, I use about 200 and change
+
+[58:18] mills of this mixture, right? In the Ziploc bags, you do it just like low temperature ziplocs. You put your finger in it, you dip it under the water to get the air out. So it's only cucumbers and gin mixture in the
+
+[58:29] Ziploc bag. Roll it up, stick it into your ISI, fill it up to the fill line with water, close it, put a charger on it, agitate it,
+
+[58:38] you know, a little bit, just a little bit. You don't need to do it a lot. And then let it sit for 2 minutes like that. Now slow. Now, what's happening is, is that you've used the pressure from the from the nitrous or carbon dioxide. doesn't matter in this case, to force the liquid that's in the bag into the pores of the cucumber, right? They're still a little bit, little gas bubbles because they're crushed in there. So you're going to lose some of the infusion when you vent, but not as much as you would if you were actually injecting nitrous into the cucumbers themselves. You then want to slowly vent the thing up to atmosphere after about 2 minutes. Now, if you were going to, don't remove it. Although if you did, you'd look at it, you'd see there's still air bubbles coming out of the cucumber just because the cucumber doesn't know what the hell's happened.
+
+[59:18] So for the next 5 minutes or so, you're going to see little tiny air bubbles coming up out of the cucumber into the gin liquid. So you're going to let it sit in the in the in the whipper for 5 minutes. Then add one more charger, let it sit for another 2 minutes, vent very slowly. And when you take the stuff out, boom, flash pickled in an AC and an AC whipper, cooking issues. Yeah.
+
+[59:47] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[59:56] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:15] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by TechServe, New York's original, and still the best, Apple Computer, iPod, and iPhone
+
+[0:05] store and repair shop. For more information, visit techserve.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Damon, your host of Cookies. She's coming live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from Roughly 12, to roughly 1245. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia to Hammer Lopez, and who do we have in the studio today? We got Jack and Joe in the booth right. How you guys doing? We're doing great Yeah, how you doing, Stas? Good. Great. Calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. and I'm back on food, people. Yeah, yeah. The lemonade died is over, and God, that sucks. Man, it's just the worst. It's freaking terrible. Like, so my wife, I complain about it last week, so I'm only gonna complain a little bit about it this week, right? But my wife was like, you know, she was surprised, you know, because here's the thing. Like, Nastasia, you don't probably don't know me, right? But, uh, one of the things Nastasia hates about me is that, uh, she says I'm kind of like an animal. I'm kind of a machine because I really just don't, I don't care kind of like, I don't know, things don't phase
+
+[1:25] me, like pain, punishment, things, right? Yeah, hunger. Yeah, hunger. So getting through it wasn't like uh, like uh, difficult from a willpower standpoint. It just sucked. and what sucked about it was, there was no point in it at all. You didn't learn anything about? You don't look different either. No, no, no, no, no, people were like, did you lose weight? I don't know, I didn't weigh myself beforehand. Why? Because this, like, it has no meaning. And all I realize is that you can, in fact, walk around with a sugar high for
+
+[1:53] 7 consecutive days without falling over. I think we should just do a new diet styles. Stars will do this one. How about stars? You want to go on the Sour Patch Kids diet? No. All you eat is just sour patch kids and wine. Not at the same time. No, no, no. Like breakfast is sour patch kids, lunchy, champagne, dinner, sour patch kids. No. You could do it for 2 days. Yeah, probably 2 days. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Maybe in the winter. Yeah, because, like, minus the wine, like, that's people are like, can you give up wine for seven? Yeah, of course. You know, like your body is just this like physical thing that's there. You know what I mean? Like who cares whether you're, you know, right? Anyway, whatever. It was an irritant and I'm glad it's over. So you learn nothing about yourself. Uh, no. No, no. I learned that, I mean, I, I, I really don't like the idea of detoxing. I think it really doesn't make sense. I mean, it is true. You get rid of caffeine, as I said last week. You know, and yeah, you know, your body is mildly dependent on caffeine, if you consume it, the
+
+[2:55] quantities. And by the way, 1st thing I did when I woke up on, by the way, I broke my lemonade fast with falafel. I made falafel because a couple people had asked about it on the show and I hadn't made it in a long time. So I made falafel, kind of a combination between Joe Nathan's recipe, you know, the famous writer on
+
+[3:12] Jewish and Jewish American cooking, in general, I guess. And, uh, this lady called, uh, the Shixa Shixa kitchen. Anyway, who's a convert to Judaism, actually. And, you know, no one's a better zealot than a convert to anything. So looked at her recipe and looked at John Nason's recipe, made some good falafels. Fried them all up in the fryer. Did you talk on the show last week about how people should just get sick and throw up? Did we talk about that? I think so. Well, so the theory is this. Like, so here's my feeling, right? If what you really want to do is purge your body of everything, right? Like the best for me was the time I had that horrible gastrointestinal disease,
+
+[3:52] right? And I lost a ton of weight there because your body is like working
+
+[3:57] overtime to try and fight this horrible disease that you have, and you're flushing your system of everything, and you can't take anything in, but your body doesn't go into horror shutdown mode because your brain is telling you not to eat or drink anything because it just shoots right out of you.
+
+[4:11] So your metabolism stays fast and you're not taking any calories. That's the genius thing. You know, that's what we need to do. That relates to my other business idea enough. Someone out there, please feel this. Here's the idea. Ready for this? We're going to get samples of contaminated water from around the world, right?
+
+[4:26] And we're going to ship them to people who live in places that don't have any sort of parasites in their water. And then you're going to drink that water, like maybe like two, 3 weeks. By the way, I'm not serious. This is satire. Like 2 or 3 weeks before you go on a vacation, right?
+
+[4:41] To that country, right? And then you have all of your horrible gastrointestinal problems at
+
+[4:46] home in the comfort of your own home, you know, on the comfort of your own toilet, right? You know, I know some people that you know stars that could have used the comfort of their own toilet when they had some horrible GI problems on a trip last year.
+
+[4:57] And they, uh, think about it. And then um, I mean, like, look, nothing's worse than going to an unfamiliar country where you don't speak the language and needing a toilet within 10 seconds, right?
+
+[5:09] Yeah. I mean, that's rough even here in the States or wherever you live. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter where you live. Like, you know your own toilet. You know what I mean? Anyway, my point is, is that this would be a decent business. You know, but still as all kidding aside, people used to take tapeworm pills. Really? Yeah. What years? A long time ago. Really dumb, really, really stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid stuff. But, and then another thing, another $1000000 business for you. ready for this one? There's this product. You didn't give the name of that business. Well, so like it was actually, I was speaking to someone who was from India when I came up with the idea because they were
+
+[5:42] saying, you don't want to go to Delhi and get this. Here's what you get when you drink the water there. They call it, uh, and this is from a native, so please don't don't write into me. But deli belly, which is a sweet name. So that was going to be the name of the business, deli belly. It sounds so friendly, doesn't it? Sounds awesome. Anyways, so I was speaking to a doctor over the weekend and we have another $1000000 idea. Check this out. How much do you think, like, you know, some sort of rich Manhattan folk person would pay for this? Here's what we do. We give you, you come into the clinic. It's a one day super detox, right? You come into the clinic, you drink this thing called a Faso soda. Faso soda is like heavily phosphate salt laden soda. You have to chug it, and literally, it rolls through you like a freaking steam train and sprays out the other end, lickety split, cleans you out, one
+
+[6:26] shot. You do that. We also flush you from the other side just for good measure. Zen, get, here's the good part, Stas, total dialysis. Right on the spot. Bam. Bam. Oh my god. Detox. Oh my god. They would pay whatever. Yeah, whatever. $10,000. whatever. Show up, detox in a day. You know, we'll do your nails the same time. You know what I mean? Little manicure. You can get that Chinese lady we used to do their hair. Oh, dude, you're giving away the secret. Then say where? You know, only the smart people know that they should go to the, like any place that has a Chinatown. If you go to the Chinese hair salons, this is a new, this is in the States. I't know what it's like around the world because I don't I don't get my haircut around the world. But the best head massages in the world for almost nothing. Yeah, right, Stas? Eight dollars. Yeah, don't don't give away. don't give away all our secrets Well, only give away the cooking secrets. All right, now, 2 actual cooking questions. First of all, before we get to cooking questions. I would like to say we have this in from Aaron Will, very, and we love this guy. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm just going to read his note, right? To Nastasia et Ali, which I like. I like, I know some people named Delhi. Anyway, I want to say congratulations to every, this is, by the way, about the Kickstarter, the puffing gun. Oh, we should talk about the puffing gun later if we have time about what we puffed. Yeah, that was awesome by the way. Oh my god, you, like, 1st of all, like, those things exploding. How, how like loud and impressive is that explosion stuff? You know what? Give me a minute and I have a video on my phone. I'll patch it through to the board. Oh, come through on radio. All right, sweet. Alright, cool. Okay. So this is about the puffing on thing. I would like to say congratulations to everyone who is involved in the project on reaching the goal. Thank you very kindly for the invitation to the MoFad Puff Party. See, because Aaron Will is a backer of our Kickstarter. It makes me incredibly proud to be a part of something I so strongly believe in. I truly believe in the long-term applications and massive positive ramifications that such an entity can and most likely will create. In all honesty, I am a poor yet passionate cook out here in Oregon,
+
+[8:25] but only because the momentary circumstances allowed for the expenditure, I was able to donate my entire paycheck this last month to the
+
+[8:33] MOFAD Kickstarter. You hear that, people? Entire paycheck. As such, along with scheduling and staffing issues, I have no feasible way to monetarily
+
+[8:41] fund a trip to join the festivities, to follow this month on the 13th because we're having a big puffing party on the 13th of August. I would, however, hate to see my invitation ticket and spot on the fire marshal's max person limit list to the event to go to waste. If there is any possible way to auction off or resell my ticket to again benefit the
+
+[8:58] MoFAD so that someone else could enjoy the experience. I would greatly appreciate it. Again, I truly regret I cannot join the amazing group of like-minded persons that is sure to converge for the event. I hope to hear from you soon, and that you all have an amazing time at the event, Aaron Will, from Scratch Restaurant in Lake Oswego, Oregon. By the way, everyone go out and patronize the scratch restaurant out there in Lake Oswego, Oregon. And also, he says, P.S. If Dave and everyone wants to come out to the pair repository, still the invitation stands. I'd love to go, but it's right around now. I got we have so much stuff going on this fall. It's like the worst fall ever in terms of stuff. Um, but maybe if I finish my book while the pairs are still on the vine, I can go. Stas has this look on her face like, I want to stab you right out. look. But anyway, Aaron, listen. Thanks. This is, uh, it was, um, we're very touched over here. Yes, well, we should have someone get his ticket. Yeah, well, and we'll think of something nice to do for you as opposed to a ticket. Okay. Well, we got a caller, but maybe before we take the caller, we'll play this little clip of the puffing gun. We'll see how it sounds. Fire. Fire. I guess it's better when you're looking at the video. Yeah, probably. Caller is on the line. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey man, how you doing? This is Christian from Detroit. How are you, Dave? Hey, you doing all right? So got a question for you. I know you like to cook some weird things and whatnot. Um, was trying to uh, make some mayonnaise this weekend with turkey eggs and made mayonnaise
+
+[10:36] that 100 times and never had a problem. I was curious if different game eggs start to make creating mayonnaise difficult or different. Huh. That's interesting. So you say you have done turkey eggs without a problem? No, I've never done turkey eggs before. I've done, you know, regular eggs and made mayonnaise of the 100 times, but I'm wondering if like wild game eggs or something like
+
+[11:00] that, has a like different protein comp, uh, makeup or something like
+
+[11:05] that, that would. Yeah, I mean, that's a cool question. I've never had a turkey egg. Do you actually have a stock of turkey eggs there? I have a stock of turkeys, which then produce the turkey eggs, so it's a good relationship. How do they taste as opposed to a chicken egg or duck egg or something? They're super custardy. So you know how a duck egg gets a little rich. This is like kind of custardy with, and it's a little bit thicker as you kind of would expect from like a bigger bird. It's, uh, but it's super delicious, especially on top of like pasta and whatnot. Huh. And so, and do they, have you put them in a circulator? Do they cook it roughly the same temperatures? I haven't put them in a circulator, so I couldn't tell you that one. I would love to know that. Well, the short answer is, I don't know. But I mean, with regard to mayonnaise, but I do know that the different birds do have different protein fractions in their eggs and that they respond differently to certain
+
+[11:59] treatments. For instance, you know, one of the things that I have experimented with different egg varieties is treating them with lie.
+
+[12:09] Harold McGee and I used to do an alkaline egg where you soak it in a lye and salt solution and then you cook it. And then even after you cook it, the egg remains translucent, right? And so, and then, and then McGee and Nils and I used to, used to substitute that out, uh, and, you know,
+
+[12:24] Lute Fisk is the lie, is the lie, uh, cured fish. So what we would do is use the egg as a lute fisk thing and then just serve an actual smoke trout next to it along with some salt. It was good. But the um, but the point is, is that the uh, duck eggs, chicken eggs, and quail eggs all responded differently to the
+
+[12:42] treatment because the protein uh, makeup is slightly different. So duck eggs responded really well to that treatment. Uh, you know, uh, and so did quail, but uh, chicken eggs were much more difficult to get to work with that because the proteins tended to fall apart more when they were treated with the
+
+[12:59] lie. So they didn't gel up as nicely. So I know from that experience, that, yes, the protein fractions are slightly different. Now, you know, mayonnaise is mostly concerned with the emulsification properties of the yolk, and I would assume that, uh, you know, because the yoke has so much more emulsification power in it than is necessary to make any sort of reasonable quantity of mayonnaise
+
+[13:27] that, unless there's some real unforeseen thing in a turkey egg that I can't, you know, fathom that, uh, there's no reason why it wouldn't
+
+[13:35] function, um, the same way in something like a mayonnaise. Does that make sense? Yeah. So maybe I just stink. Well, I mean, like, I have to, uh, yeah, I have to keep playing with it, but it was really weird. I mean, no matter how much, you know, like the little bit of acid or the little bit of water. I just, I couldn't get it to come together. I'll have to, you couldn't get it to start the emulsion. No. Yeah, I mean, I've never researched the turkey. That's a really interesting question. I'm trying to think of like what it could be that would not allow it to happen, but like, you know, I can't. So in other words, like you sit there, you make it with a chicken egg, no problem. And then you make it with a turkey egg and it's big problems. Yeah, it's it's super weird. And then, you know, like I've tried everything, like I let it sit in the fridge, let everything separate, pulled the yolks back out, tried to slowly add it back in, tried the cold method, tried room temp method, could not get it to come
+
+[14:34] together. So I'll have to keep playing with it and see. Maybe there's something in it that's, that's, maybe there's something I've, I have no, I have no clue, but maybe someone out there knows, you know? Maybe I'll send you some turkey eggs and then we'll have to. Oh, that would be awesome. We'll play with that. That would be awesome. Also, like, uh, I wonder whether, have you tried, um, so one way to find out whether there's something in the turkey egg that's shafting you is to do like
+
+[14:58] one-to-one turkey egg with chicken egg and see whether or not you can make that
+
+[15:02] work, right? I mean, maybe there's some sort of crazy inhibitor. But again, like I just feel that like something just weird might be, something weird might be going on, you know? Yeah, I agree. I mean, it seemed weird to me. I couldn't imagine that the emulsification would be that weird, but
+
+[15:18] I, or that different rather, but yeah, it was, it was pretty strange. Huh, yeah, well, that's very interesting. I would encourage you to keep us posted because I want to hear how this works out or get us some turkey
+
+[15:29] eggs and we'll mess around. We will make mayonnaise out of them. Yes. and you can you can put them in the suit and see, see how they do. Oh, yeah, I do, yeah, I want to extend you to them. See, what you need to do is you need to do, like, you do the range. So it's gonna set somewhere. I mean, obviously, you know, if you cook with a circulator, you know, a chicken egg set between 60, so they runny of 62 and they're set at 64 Celsius. And so like, you know, I usually just run like that range to see whether like how things are relative to relative to the chicken, which is, you know, of course,
+
+[15:59] standard standard egg. Right. standard egg. Yeah. Cool. All right, awesome. Cool. So I look forward to the turkey and we'll post back. Yeah, sounds good. Thanks, man. Thank you. All right. So, what were we talking about beforehand? We were talking about... Puffing gun. We have a number, something else. Something else we were talking about? I can't remember. Okay, uh, Ryan writes in, uh, at cooking issues. How does the pressure pickle technique burst the vacuules make sense with the chamber, but I'm a little confused with this. Referring to the pressure, uh, rapid pressure pickling technique I put up on the cooking issues blog
+
+[16:35] uh, the other week? And I think I described it last week on the air, right? How that works, like you, so the idea is, is that normally when you're infusing a liquid into a solid, use a vacuum machine, you suck the air out, using the vacuum machine, you have it in a liquid, air comes back in,
+
+[16:51] air smashes the liquid into where the air pockets used to be in the thing and you infuse it. So the problem with doing that in ISI is that when you release the pressure, all of the stuff that you infuse in boils back out again and you get almost like a net 0 in terms of
+
+[17:05] infusion. It doesn't look infused away an awesome, like, you know, vacuum infused thing looks. So I solve that by putting the um, products in Ziploc bags inside the ISI so that the soluble gas, CO2 or N2O doesn't get into the
+
+[17:20] uh, product and therefore won't boil out as violently. So the question here is, how does that burst the actual air holes? I don't think, in other words, like, I think what, what, here's what I think is happening in, in this technique. In a vacuum, when you're using a vacuum machine to inject a liquid into an air hole. What you're doing is you're removing almost all of the partial pressure of air on the inside of the air holes
+
+[17:45] in the pores on the inside of your liquid inside your salad. When the air comes back in, you have a maximum external pressure is 60 of
+
+[17:54] a six, sorry, 15, roughly PSI pounds per square inch, forcing the liquid into those things. In an ISI, you're talking about 60 or more pounds per square inch, at least 60, 70, depending on how much you
+
+[18:08] put in, pounds per square inch, pushing on it. And that is enough to crush air bubbles down to almost nothing. So you force the liquid into it, right? Now you're not forcing anything solid, like soluble gases in there. You're just making those air bubbles tiny and forcing liquid in. When you release it, right, those bubbles expand and leave your product, let's
+
+[18:31] say cucumber, right? And take with it some of the liquid. But they also, as they're leaving, they keep on then leaking out because you've made pathways for the liquid to get to them during the compression
+
+[18:41] phase. The 2nd time you hit it, right? This is why you pause for 5 minutes. The 2nd time you hit it with a charger, you reinject that liquid into those gaps, right? And the 2nd time you release it, very little gets sprayed back out. And so you have fundamentally an infused product. That's why you need to hit it twice with that. I hope that makes sense. That makes sense? Yeah, cool. All right. Let me see. Well, you have a bunch of, you want to hit all the circulator crap now? Scale circulator, John. you want to take a break? Talk about what you what you emailed Barack Obama. What? Oh, you know, do you guys look? I look, look, this is great. Dave answers no emails. If you send me an email, I'm not going to answer it. Do have I answered an email for you ever, Jack? We've never had one email interaction. Yeah, no, no. And I've known you for how many years? Like 3 or 4 years. Yeah, yeah. No emails. No, no. I hate email as a thing. But, but, but, uh, the, the, uh, Obama machine emails me like 3 times a
+
+[19:40] day. The form that, like the, but they changed the names to each person. So it'll say, hi, Dave. Yeah, where'd this come up? What many think it is? I was looking for his. Oh, you were looking for the questions anyway? Yeah, so like anyway, so like he's like, I only respond to Barack and Michelle Obama's emails. And I never get responses, but Beyonce, well, Beyonce was on behalf of Barack Obama. I was like Beyonce, you never write anymore. So anyway, yesterday or 2 days ago was Barack's birthday. Right, yeah, happy birthday. So what did you say? I was like, what did I say? I was like, happy, happy birthday, brother. Next time we go out the beers are on me. No response. No response. Anyway, I am like, I personally am like, I'm not a fan of the fake personal. You know what I mean? And he asked for money a couple weeks ago and you told him, I have this mopad thing that I have to give. Yeah, the fake personal emails are hilarious. It's like, I love it when an ATM machine thanks me as though it's not a machine. Yeah, ridiculous. No one made me think of that. All right. It looks like a really quick break. All right, come back with cooking issues.
+
+[21:08] This special program is brought to you by Tech Serve, New York's premier authorized Apple reseller and service provider, serving creative professionals at all
+
+[21:17] levels from individual customers to Fortune 100 companies. TechServ has built a solid reputation in their expertise in technology, sales, and service.
+
+[21:27] Visit them on the web at techserve.com or in New York City at 119 West 23rd Street. Learn more about their in-store classes and incredible insider program. Make stuff happen. Tech Serve. We back? We're back We're back. Bob and Portland rides in regarding the egg, the egg cracking thing we had last group. By the way, you know, like someone like walked up to be a pastry chef, that's what everyone has an egg cracking thing. So, uh, Bob writes, hey, Dave, Nastasia and friends. What's up, friends? Hey, here's my nearly foolproof egg cracking tip. I hold the egg in the palm of one hand and begin wrapping it with the knuckle of the other hand, like I'm knocking on the door, gently at 1st and gradually increasing until the egg cracks. And then insert my thumbs and spread the shell apart. No egg white on the side of the bowl or the countertop, Bob in Portland. And, uh, you know, it's made, you know, the pastry chef was saying, you know, you get the,
+
+[22:22] the, the tap very gently on the table at the, at the, at the widest part of the
+
+[22:27] egg and put your finger in, open it. let me tell you something. I am a freaking gorilla monster in the
+
+[22:35] kitchen. Like, if I spent more, and these people, like, just to give you an idea, like, of kind
+
+[22:40] of like my way I am in that thing, like, uh, I just, I like to do everything extremely quickly, right? Stars are shaking your head. Like, I can't, like, I can't, like, I should spend each time and give every egg the respect it deserves as I crack
+
+[22:56] it. But like, you know, I just crack the hell out of those eggs really quickly. You know what I mean? The only time I really pay any attention is when I'm separating eggs out. And even then, I don't pay that much attention. And so, for instance, when I'm when I'm separating eggs out, because I'm gonna like make like a zabayon or I'm gonna make like a meringue or something like this, right? I never crack the damn yolks. You know what I mean? Like when I throw them into the pot, sometimes I crack them. but I don't really care. You know what I mean? I never crack eggs when I egg yolks when I'm making fried eggs, right? Do you have that problem? And I'm a freaking gorilla. You know what I mean? Like, I'm the worst person in the world. And so she was this pastry chef saying that, like, that's typical for someone who, like, hangs out with savory people all the time that, you know, like, you know,
+
+[23:40] just crack the crap out of stuff and put it, put it through a strainer to make sure that there's no pieces of shells in. She was like, you're a bad person. Who was that? I forget who one. but it's true though. Bad person. Bad person. At least with regard to that. Okay, now we got a whole bunch of stuff. We're having some sort of like circulator extravaganza, all sorts of stuff coming in on circulators, right? Because we had a circulated question last week on the Seattle food gig thing, right? So first, before. Before we do circulators, Dave? you coming to the party on Sunday? Sunday. Yeah. don't know. Am I come? don't know. Actually I think I'm away this Sunday. But should we announce the party? Are there still tickets? There's still tickets. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. That's what I was looking. Yeah, it's not it's not monster trucks, though, right? do we have? There will be there will be monster trucks. Holy crap, monster trucks? I'm confirming right now. Oh my god. Are we gonna do this thing at Yonkers Raceway? Where are we going to do this? That's basically where the party is yet. No, it's in the back garden of Roberta. It will be awesome. Whole hog roast cocktails, et cetera, et cetera. So if you email us now and you confirm that you found out about the party by listening to this show, I'll give you a special discount code. Just ask for me. Yeah, what kind of discount they're going to get? Uh, you know, it's flexible. Flexible discount. Oh, I like the flex discount. Yeah. So info atheritageradionetwork.org. And if you're not in New York, get a raffle ticket, win a trip to Seattle. By the way, I don't know whether you guys know this, which I'm sure you do. Like, this radio station here, this is a 501 C3 kind of an operation, and, you know, Jack, Joe, Eddie.
+
+[25:10] These guys all need the, you know, Aaron, who comes on every once in a while. These guys all need to like eat. They need to purchase food. You know what I mean? Like the, we need to, we need to keep this place on the air. So it helps to uh, it helps to uh, go to these events. And guess what? It's a win-win because you're going to have a good time and we get to keep providing programming. Am I right about this? Yeah, we can get coffee in the morning. It really helps. Yeah, please these guys need their coffee in the morning. I think I've got Piper on the line. Ooh, Piper. So, Piper, let me hello, Piper. Hey, Dave. So, uh, Alvin Schultz, uh, who uh, did uh, some time at Booker and
+
+[25:43] Dax the Bar, uh, hanging out, figuring out the stuff, uh, and also a longtime listener here. Had a question for you, looking for food recommendations. You went to like Ho Chi Minh, right? That's what I was telling you. Oh, you didn't? Where did you go? Yeah, you only went. So never mind. So you don't have any recommendations for Alvin, huh? Well, well, where did you go good in Hulu? In case he makes it over? By the way, street food, honestly. You know what? You know where he is? He's in, he's in Phuket, and I want everyone, like when I was, when I was in Stas, this exact same thing. You know how we pronounced it when we were adolescence, right? Anyway. So wait, so what do you have there? Street food. He didn't go to any restaurants? No. He said he was mostly in his hotel room. What? Yeah, because it was too hot to go outside. How hot was it? Is it true, Piper, that you spent all of your time in your hotel room and only went out after dark to get street food? No, I spent from noon till like 2 in the hotel room. There's too hot. Man. Stas is shaking her head and making the Piper your busted face, which is another face that none of you will ever get to see. All right. Well, I apologize for making you call in when you have no useful recommendations for
+
+[26:55] Alvin. Sorry about that. That's my favorite call in the history of the show. All right. Sorry, Piper. You know what? I love Piper, because you can call Piper up and, like, say something like that. like, you know, I don't know, do that. And he's fine. Keep inside, he's crying. Oh, Piper, good man. Piper's a good man. Okay. Alvin also writes in, do you have any info on the history of
+
+[27:23] Petuga style mescals? Uh, no, but except for the fact that, you know, I've always told the same story that, uh, that they put basically in the distillation flask so that kind of, uh, it
+
+[27:35] reflux uh, distills on a piece of meat. So different places would use different kinds of meat. So pachuga obviously used the chicken breast, but other people threw other kinds of meat into the kind of vapor chamber above where the mezcal was
+
+[27:49] distilling and that's where that comes from, but as to why you would do that, only God knows. I don't know this story. But, you know, I know some people from Del Mague and some other, like, you know, Ryan Fitzgerald and all these guys. I can next time I speak to them, Alvin, I'll get some history on that stuff for
+
+[28:05] you. All right? And Alvin's last question. What does Rotovap collection flask? What does Rotovap collection flask boil late in the run how to fix? What does that mean, Stas? You figure out what that means. Oh, why does it? No, no. What what collects? Alvin, I got to say, I don't exist. What? It's like a riddle. It is a riddle. It's a complete riddle. Hey, by the way, one last non-cooking related thing. So I have I need the next drink that I come up with the bar that we don't have a name for. You ready for this one? So Tristan Willie is, you know, one of the bar manager at Booker
+
+[28:42] Index, and his last name is Willie, right? So here's my favorite tongue twister. I'm going to name the next drink this, ready? Willie's real rear wheel. Say that. Willy's a real rear wheel. Wow. You can't say it's impossible. So I'm going to have that be the name of the drink. No, no, I saw it. tongue twisters because, you know, I have kids. And so we're doing tongue twisters. I looked it up. Willie's real rear wheel. And so I'm going to write that, just as the drink name, and it doesn't look imposing. Write it. It looks completely harmless. can't be said. And so, like, customers are going to be, like, really... See, when
+
+[29:17] they were on their 3rd job. Willie's... name it. So that's my next plan. Okay, back to cooking related questions. So, uh, circulators. Okay, Matt writes in. Hey, Nastasian Crew. working on a new product that will hopefully make soothie cooking not just cheaper, but also better than current immersion circulator technology. Ooh, coming on, coming on strong against the, uh, against our boy P Preston and our boy, uh, WePop SoupyPot. a.k.a. supapi pot from Nomiku. Okay. My question for you guys is what would you like to see improved about current immersion circulators? Are there any pain points or missing features you can think of? Also, where can I send a demo unit once I get one, as I'd love to get your feedback? Well, the address for Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation. If anyone ever wants to send us free stuff, uh, is 54 Eldridge Street storefront. Yes. One, New York, New York, one, 002. So anyway. So, I don't know, like, that's a good question. Like, what's a hassle about circulators? I mean, there's a lot that's kind of a hassle about them. But there's a lot that's great about them as well. I mean, probably the power, be nicer to have more power sometimes. I don't know. I mean, I'm so used to them, so used to it. Cleaning them could be a little easier, right, Stas? I hate cleaning them out. You hate, well, Stas never cleans it out. She doesn't give her rat's ass. You have one at home. easy to clean. What? The new one is easier to clean the old one. What the plastic one? Yeah, because it's got less parts, but it's more It's harder to clean in some ways because there's just more parts that you can't see whether they're dirty because they're inside the
+
+[30:51] machine, as opposed to stainless, which got filthy. But anyway, it's a good question. I don't know. I'd like to hear from people out there, what they don't like about their circulators and what they think need to be changed. Regarding also circulators, we had a Seattle food geek data circulator build. So Chris Hale wrote in regarding Seattle food geek circulator build. By the way, for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, very quickly, the circulator is a thing that allows you to keep water and sometimes other liquids at very constant
+
+[31:16] temperatures absolutely necessary to do low temperature cooking, which is the greatest innovation in cooking in the last 200 years, in my opinion.
+
+[31:23] Seattle food geek circulator build. I followed that build and shopping list and had good results, but bending acrylic sucks because we were talking about the box enclosure last week for the circulators. Drilling is frustrating and cutting it is impossible. Then it is hard to clean, not very durable, and looks like crap after a few months. If you don't have a laser CNC machine handy and nobody does, but Seattle food geek, don't use acrylic. I busted up my acrylic box last week and installed the whole thing in a black ABS. ABS is the kind of plastic that people use, but you know, remember ABS can't get too too hot. ABS Project Box from RadioShack. For this project, I recommend at least 4 inches tall by 8 inches deep. I put mine in a 6 by 4 by 3 and I spent most of the week in rewiring it because the space was too cramped. Then there was one time I plugged it in and welded my AC supply line to the relay, but I'm sure you're smart enough to keep the metal backing of the relay away from the power connections.
+
+[32:11] By the way, one note on this. I noticed a lot of these DIY things use relays. I hate, I hate mechanical relays for this application. Spend the extra 3 bucks and get everyone listen to me, spend the extra 3 bucks and get a solid state relay. I hate that click, click, click, click that relays make, and I also hate the fact that they have mechanical things in them that can fail because of arcing when things go bad.
+
+[32:35] So just get yourself a solid state relay. They have an infinite lifetime basically compared to a solid state relay. They're never going to go south on you unless you fry them out. And they don't go click. Hate the click. All right, so back back to Chris's point here. But I'm sure you're smart enough to keep the metal backing of the relay away from the power connections. Anyway, once you drill a hole in ABS, you can use a file or hacksaw blade to make the hole, whatever shape and size you need, it won't crack and it's easy to
+
+[33:03] clean with some property sized grummets, the holes for the power cord and circulator pump will be vapor tight. It's a good word, vapor tight. That be a good band, right? Vapor tight. Which was never possible with the acrylic rig. As for the clamp to hold it on the edge of your pan. Acrylic is unsuitable for that too. That true. will crack. Try a piece of sheet metal or half of a sturdy plastic box held to the project box with
+
+[33:22] screws and attach a couple of spring clamps. There's so much faster than some screws. Thumb screws, even if they aren't as versatile. As far as what kind of container you can use them on. Good luck and happy circulating from Chris Hale. And also, uh, Cryptamp writes in. For your question last week, I use an aluminum bar bent with hands over steel railing, not acrylic, uh, for uh, mounting the, uh, heater on. In fact, he has no housing at all, so he put the electronics for it on the on the outside, just attached by wires over on the other side, I think. I will say cryotamp, or cryptamp, that your situation not exactly OSHA friendly because it looks like I could get zapped pretty good if I didn't pay attention, but I'm sure it will work.
+
+[34:00] And when I made my own circulators and didn't care about getting zapped. I did get zapped all the time. I say, look, Piper, Piper giving us crap for calling him out. He hasn't mailed the torch yet. I don't know, you know, not the torch. Yeah, okay, whatever. Okay, uh, we have in from uh, Joe Blow. Joe Blow says, people say cooking squid or octopus either needs to be cooked for very long or very quickly.
+
+[34:27] Nothing in between. Why? What's the science behind this? And I got to say, it's another one of those things that I just, you know, it's just you take it for granted, you know, you don't know. And here's the other thing. I read a bunch of scientific papers on Squid and octopus, and most of the work on that stuff was done in the 80s, and, you know, around
+
+[34:51] then in the mid 80s, and the people who were doing it had the typical problem of a lot of scientists when they're doing these kinds of papers, they
+
+[34:57] just, they didn't cook it properly. So there's no, no one, no one did the right experiment from a science paper
+
+[35:04] standpoint saying, like, what exactly is going on in the muscles between a short cook, uh, the medium and the long cook, the toughness in between. However, you can kind of deduce based on what's going on that, what's happening. So the interesting thing is squid and octopus muscle is very different from vertebrate muscles, right? So, 1st of all, there's the protein compositions are different. So there's much more myofibrillar protein. In other words, the actual muscle fiber protein in squid muscle, as opposed to the sarcoplasmic proteins, which are the ones kind of surrounding
+
+[35:46] and in the cells that aren't the myofibrile proteins. So those are the ones that actually cause the contraction. This is because squids have some strong contraction in that sucker so they can go, right? So they have more of those myofibrillar proteins that are going to cause toughness when they denature. Also, they have they have fibers running in 2 different directions around, right? So they can squeeze, and then also radially, so they can bend and do all sorts of stuff. So they got this this kind of two-direction muscle fiber action going on. Also, the proteins are a little more soluble than they are. So they tend to swell up and bind together and shrink like a
+
+[36:22] mother much more than, uh, like, uh, vertebrate proteins do or even, you know, fish. Yeah, well, they're vertebrates, duh. So the, so here's what happens. My feeling is that, um, If you before you totally denature those things and they shrink up, which happens somewhere between 50 and 60 Celsius, uh, before that
+
+[36:42] happens or it happens really quickly, you're going to have a tender product that you can get on the rare low side.
+
+[36:47] Then as soon as you shrink those suckers, they're going to be hard, like, like rubbery like rocks, until you cook the ever-loving snot out of them and break those stuff. They also have a fairly high portion of connective tissue in them too. Remember that giant octopus we cooked? That was awesome, right? Yeah, so like one of the, I said this like a 1000000 times, but like, you know, we got a giant octopus
+
+[37:08] tentacle. Every octopus tentacle, by the way, tastes a little different because some are more dominant than others. And the octopus tentacle tastes different from the tip to the to where it attaches to the animal. The tip is a little more, I think, kind of like a little more gummy, a little more like, you know, and I like this stuff kind of in the middle, actually. But anyway. So, that is what I think is going on. Some other interesting things about squid and octopus, there's have a high level of protein breaking
+
+[37:36] down, protein enzymes in them. And so I would think that prolonged heating, I haven't tested this, but I would think that prolonged heating in the 60 degree range, before you ramp it up, would also make it very tender. But here's another interesting paper for you. At least interesting to me. How gross is this? You ready for this, Daz? And I'll tell you why it's interesting. Tenerization of squid, uh, low-ligo, uh, vulgaris, which is
+
+[38:00] low-ligos are, uh, they're a genus of squid, uh, that are mainly kind of uh, they live near the bottom of the ocean, right? low logos. And, uh, Ilex, uh, Coindeti,
+
+[38:12] the Ilex ones are the are the more fast swimming kind of ocean east quids. Um, with Bromelane, which is a uh, you know, protein tenderizer, right? And you ready for this one? Bovine, spleen, lysosomal, enriched extract. How'd you like to sprinkle that all over your squid, gross? Gross. But here's the really interesting thing that I had never thought of before. And, um, something maybe for you guys to think about is usually when you're thinking about what's happening with protein extracts, uh, what
+
+[38:42] you're, what you're thinking about is, um, that things get mushy, right?
+
+[38:48] Because you're breaking down the structure of the proteins. And for something like meat, when you break it down, that's good because it tenderizes, but usually in fish, it makes it mushy. But things don't necessarily break down in kind of a very uniform way. So both of those things, the bovine, spleen, lysosome extract, and the, uh, and the
+
+[39:10] Bromlane are protease enzymes. But the Bromlane, and you can look at that in this paper. very interesting. The Brommelane, when you treat it with it, makes the squid mushy, and people don't like it. It's more tender, whereas the, the lithosome, this the spleen, the bovine spleen extract, tenderizes it in such a way that it just reduces the sheer force the same in all of the parameters of the tasting of the squid.
+
+[39:33] So, it reduces springiness by the same amount that it reduces hardness all the way around. It just makes it more tender, but still keeps the same textural properties of squid. So it looks like there's a whole world out there of protein breaking down of protein, you know, protonace enzymes out there that we could use to make things more tender without making them mushy, which is something
+
+[39:53] I'd never thought of before. Another interesting thing about endogenous meaning inside of the tissue already, squid enzymes, is that they are active at alkaline pHs. So soaking acidity you'd think would make the stuff harder, and there are some research that says that it does. And another thing is is that treating squid with phosphate salts as a brine beforehand and salt in general, but phosphate salt, which I think they don't give a reason for it, but I think it's because it makes it more basic, more
+
+[40:19] alkaline, will help the enzymes more rapidly break down the protein. So phosphate treatments of squid that take it into the slightly alkaline, like 7.4 range instead of like the slightly acidic
+
+[40:32] range, maybe help the squid get a little softer. Uh, and wait a minute, time for one, time for one more thing? Yeah. Gun. I thought you were gonna talk about. Oh, one more thing before. You can get that thing today now. What thing? Oh, yeah, stars, I'm going to pound some lunch. They're going to have a giant calzone for lunch. I'm just going to eat this whole calzone just by myself. I read this crazy paper on... you ever notice how people, when they write papers on frying things. They always want to reduce the oil in things. It all everyone ever cares about when they write papers on frying. They want to reduce the oil. So check this out. So when you're making industrially when you're making fried things for freezing. What you do is, is you make your product, you throw in a bunch of gums and all this stuff. And then you pre-fry your product, right? And then after you pre-fry it to set the batter, then you freeze it. And then when you refry it, you cook the batter all the way through it, right? Makes sense? Okay. So, um, So it's a well-known fact that if you add methyl cellulose to batters, you decrease the oil absorption of the batters, because methyl cellulose and, you know,
+
+[41:34] hydroxy propyl methyl cells, they have the interesting property that when they gel when they heat up, okay? So what's happening is in water, hot water, it forms a gel. And this is why it's used in pie filling so that the pie filling doesn't boil out of crust. It's used in barbecue sauces to increase adhesion when they're on the grill and being heated. It's used to make those noodles that set when you spray them into soups
+
+[41:57] and kind of modern cooking. And, you know, dumplings that don't bump, you know, all those kinds of things,
+
+[42:04] methyl sales. So well-known fact that if you put it into batters, it decreases oil absorption. These guys dope the hell out of it. They've patented this, believe this or not, in 2000, I did know if you could patent stuff like this in 2002. What they do is they make a really loose batter thing and then they boil their freaking chicken nuggets, like dumplings with methocellulose in it,
+
+[42:24] then give you this kind of boiled nugget, which you then fry later. Doesn't that sound weird? Gross, huh? I kind of want to try it to see what happens. These kind of boiled methocell battered dumplings and then fried. But I don't really see the advantage because I don't really believe that I want to decrease the amount of oil that's in
+
+[42:39] my fried foods. Do you mean like, you've had my fried foods? Do you feel that you need to reduce the amount of oil in it? No. No. See, I see, like, oil is organoletically delicious. And so like the trick is you don't want your socks stuff to be greasy, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily want to reduce the oil that's on the inside of it. Lunacy. Lunacy. All right, so the gun. So, uh, it's puffing gun, you know, uh, as I've said many times, I'll say one more time. What it is, is, is it's a chamber that you fill with kind of whatever you want.
+
+[43:12] And then you, it has the stuff that you fill it with has a water content somewhere between 12 and 16%
+
+[43:18] water. You seal it type, you heat it with about 200,000 BTUs of gas
+
+[43:24] flame. You spin it so that it doesn't scorch anywhere, and it heats up to like 370 degrees Fahrenheit and like 150 to 180 psi. And then you hit you hit the sucker with a giant stick, the door flies open, the stuff explodes and puffs because the water that's inside instantly turns to a steam paper. Well, so we were testing it because we had a bunch of people suggesting what we should
+
+[43:46] test, and things that you would expect to work well, like rice did work well, although I couldn't taste it when we were making them last
+
+[43:53] week. I tasted them. this week, and they were kind of soft, right? I think we need to do some post-dehydration where they soft when we were puffing them. Yeah. So we just needed to do some post-dehydration before we serve them. They have a little bit of crunch to them. Yeah, but if you're going to storm for any length of time, they need to be. Yeah. Okay. So we did sushi rice, delicious. I'm told, actually, I tasted it. tastes good but the texture wasn't right when I had it. Red basmati rice puff very well. Popcorn is amazing because they puff into balls, which is pretty cool. Buckwheat was could be good. wasn't good when we did it, but could theoretically be good, right? Lentils. Okay, so then we tried, so all the stuff that should have worked, worked. Now, we have not had any luck with, with, I'm sorry, folks. We have not had any luck with our weird alternative stuff yet, right? So 1st thing we do. We were like, how about some red lentils? Red lentils? Red lentils, right? Because computers like, I love red lentils. I love them So like, you know, he doesn't talk like that. Mike kind of does. But anyway, so then like we load the sucker up with red lentils. And we heat it up and I'm standing up there and I hit it and we're up at like 160 PSI. Instantly, the entire
+
+[45:00] heritage heritage foods USA warehouse is filled with lentil dust. The entire place is coated with burnt red lentil dust. The entire place smells like burnt red lentil dust. My, like my clothes were covered in in red lentil dust, everything was just red lentil dust. And I was like, I thought it was just a little bit. And I'm like, where is it? Every single lentil had been vaporized. Is that true, Stas? That's crazy. I don't know how you did it that day on your cleanse, everyone eating, puffing things. Yeah, yeah, I know. Like, it's time to eat lunch, guys. Yeah, yeah, I know. yeah everyone's like stuffing their face. I'm sitting there working, like not eating anything, working like a demon. 60 degrees, I play the gun. Yeah, on top of this like flaming gun. I'm sweating. I'm sweating, not eating anything, and then I can't get other people to like work because they're shoving sandwiches in their face.
+
+[45:48] lunchtime, Dave. I'm like, well, you know, it goes back to what stars always says. I'm an animal. machine, machine. Mule, pack mule, machine, idiot. Anyway. So, uh, then, so we had this problem with, uh, we originally planned on the puffing gun to have glass around it, right? And then on our 1st Kickstarter test when we exploded our plexi, we're like, maybe we should switch Lex in. You know, maybe not a good idea to throw shards of glass into into people's eyes during that thing. So then we put Lexan up and we realized that it steams up almost instantly and you can't see through it. So then we're like, okay, so we're going to test a screen, right? So we go to Home Depot, and we put like literally like a window screen up, and then after we put up the window screen, we decide to test chickpeas and soybeans, right?
+
+[46:33] Let me tell you something. Not only did that, that not work, but the chickpeas and soybeans blasted through the netting and like hit
+
+[46:42] us, made holes through the netting and hit us like, like, like buckshot, like BBs, right? So anyway. So we have no luck with chickpeas. We have no luck with soybeans, although I feel that we could get it right. We did pasta. When pasta comes out of the puffing gun as opposed to pasta that you, you know, puff using the traditional chef's technique of puffing pasta. When you puff it in the gun, it looks, like, describe this, Daz. like gnarled. Some sort of like weird asteroid, like gnarled, craziness, deformed thing. It's like, it's like, imagine it's puffing like in like a 300 mile an hour wind.
+
+[47:16] You know why? Because it's puffing in a 300 mile an hour wind. You know what I mean? It's like this pasta. like, you know, what do you even shape were those? Those like penne or something? Uh, Shisili, I think. We did a couple. We had one with their lines in it, though. Yeah, we did it if we see it. But imagine like that's puffing and flying out of the gun at a zillion miles an
+
+[47:34] hour, and it just has this warped freakish look to it. It was weird. What do you think of that stuff? Good taste? Or the look of it. The look was weird. Yeah, weird. Some people liked it because it looks like pasta chicharro. What is that it looks like when his hands will eventually freeze up? I want to do chicken skins and things like that. Anyway, so we will let you know as we test it out. It's not next week. the puff party, right? Tuesday. Next Tuesday is a puff party. So I'll report back from the morning of the puff party next week. Cooking issues.
+
+[48:12] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:35] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marley. What? Your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aber's Pizzeria. Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hows everyone doing? See what happens and you missed 2 weeks. Can't even do the intro. I didn't miss them this one week. Oh, yeah. Well, but, you know, of course, you're going to trip up on the word host. I scared, literally, like, these guys, like, at the, there's a table, and sits right by the radio window, and they're like, what the, what the, they're gone. Cone to questions 2, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. And I haven't said this in a while, but true. Remember, you can call us with pretty much any question, right, guys? I mean, doesn't have to be technical. I mean, usually is, but Nastasia, speaking of technical right now. This is like a very meta nastasia moment, she's reading, as we see, she noticed because she looks at things, believe it or not. The, uh, they have a book that was shipped into us, not us, but the radio, the radio station called The Vegan Stoner Cookbook. So Nastasia is going to have a definition of the vegan stoner, which is one who satisfies the munchies with resourceful, creative, instinctive cooking without using animal products. Wait, say that again? One who satisfies the munchies with resourceful, creative, instinctive cooking without using animal products. Are you are you, can you do instinctive things when you're stoned out of your mind? Or is it front of me? Like, look, look, I'm not not a stoner, but most of my friends who, like, who hit up quite a lot. They don't necessarily make their best cooking decisions when they're stoned out of their mind.
+
+[2:11] Just saying. And all their fruits and vegetables are have a stoner face going on in this? Well, you know, look, hopefully pretty soon. I mean, look, I have some friends who are kind of very deep into, um, cooking and making liquor products
+
+[2:29] with, uh, with cannabis, and, um, you know, maybe soon it'll be legal for me to work on those things as well, but, uh, I mean, I've
+
+[2:38] never really tried that stuff out. You, uh, she's looking at these vegetables. Like, the vegetables in the book are quite, they're, they, they look. It's not Nastasia's vegan face. Ill tell you that. These guys are, that's a much different vegan face. They're much different vegan face. their eyes are all at half mast. It's pretty, yeah. I predict at least 3 write-ins or call-ins related to this subject now. We'll see. Well, why don't you call out the authors of the book here who we don't know these good call coming in right now. hold on. Hello, caller, you're on the air. This is John Doe calling in. Hey, let's talk with me today. How you doing? It me. Dave. What's up? Hey, what's up? Nothing. Yeah, yeah, we're on here. By the way, John Doe, big help at the puff party event that we had last
+
+[3:24] Tuesday. I thought, well, big success. didn't you think so? Yeah, it looks awesome. It was really cool to be able to puff the stuff I brought as well and everything all about the puffing gun and the moisture tester and all that
+
+[3:37] stuff. It was a blast. Your mix of, uh, it was tough. Uh, what was the, what was the thing? was Tef, Tapioca. What was the third? Millet. Millet, man, that was the, I think the best puff we had of the evening. That stuff was delicious. Although later, by the way, for those Jonah we're talking about, we're talking about an explosive puffing gun that the Museum of Food and Drink has is their 1st kind of temporary exhibit.
+
+[4:00] And when we, so, so, uh, you know, John Doe, uh, came and uh, puffed a bunch of stuff with us, including that mix I just told you about, and it was the
+
+[4:11] best, by far far and away the best. So then when we did the Saturday public event, we got some tapioca pearls and puffed them just on their
+
+[4:19] own and they turned into giant, like, like, cumulus cloud, styro balls. It was the weirdest thing ever. It was not as good, the tapioca when we did it without the full mix of stuff. Really interesting. Yeah that's awesome. So, um, kind of wanted to call the follow-up and uh, um, give you guys a shout out, especially uh, Piper and
+
+[4:40] Nastasha for showing me such hospitality, and also uh, headed over to uh, BDX and got some ride drinks from
+
+[4:47] Nick, and uh, he uh, cooked me up some uh, pretty amazing stuff. Nice. Nice. But I also had some questions. Uh, kind of wanted to follow up on uh, suggestions for puffing. Um, we had talked. Piper and I kind of uh, concocted some possibility of uh, throwing some cocoa natives in with, um, some
+
+[5:06] rice, uh, to be able to make, you know, cocoa puffs, uh, auto cocoa puffs.
+
+[5:12] I was just wondering what your your thoughts on our um, on that. Well, I mean, my feeling is, like, when we put things in that are weird, like, for instance, the last puff of the day that we did on Saturday, we threw
+
+[5:23] in, uh, almonds and, um, and, uh, what? Lobster shells? No, that was on party. And then sunflower seeds and a bunch of stuff. Didn't puff. I don't know that Coco. I'd have to look up Coco Niz. My strong feeling is something that high in oil will tend to melt out. I mean, I know maybe not, though, in the present, in the lack of water. I mean, we'll try it someday, but as you say, we'll try it in an absence
+
+[5:49] of, um, I mean, sorry, in with a multitude of other stuff so that it's the minor constituent. This way, if it goes horribly wrong, the horrible wrongness can be absorbed
+
+[6:00] by the rest of the batch and not all over the inside of the gun.
+
+[6:04] Like we notice that when we make mistakes, the mistakes tend to melt themselves onto the inside of the
+
+[6:09] gun and then require, require kind of a bit of a hardcore cleaning. That happened in one of our tapioca batch is actually, we had to run a clean mid-event on Saturday because the tapioca completely melted itself to the inside and when it's melted and open, it carborizes very quickly, but doesn't solidify fast enough to flake it
+
+[6:29] off. And so you get this kind of sludge in the gun, which, but, but, but, more and again, I couldn't find our, our green
+
+[6:37] coffee, because I know I want to puff green coffee as well. But a lot of it has to do with the starch content. I don't know if you know, but Sweet Maria's has a pretty cool site. It pretty much, you know, breaks everything down. It's it's a ridiculous information gathering site for anybody who wants to roast
+
+[6:54] coffee. Yeah, I used to buy my green beans from them. But back when I used to roast, I used to roast my own all the time,
+
+[7:00] I was, you know, for years, that was my ritual. I used to buy beans from them. Yeah. Okay, cool. I just had a side question on a project I'm working on. I'm trying to make fish sauce, bacon, and, you know, basically I've been, um, you know, doing the standard, uh, dry chair plus adding a little bit of fish sauce. I can't seem to get enough fish sauce bump into it. I mean, I can kind of feel that there's extra mommy, but I want to really juice it up and I was thinking about doing, um, you know,
+
+[7:29] basically, uh, boiling off the liquid and creating, you know, uh, creating a fish
+
+[7:34] salt to do the curing process and add the nitrates afterwards. Right. And I'm wondering if I'm going to lose anything in terms of flavor when I do that. And
+
+[7:43] obviously, I don't have a rotary evaporator, but, um, It's wondering what you had in terms of thoughts on that. Yeah, you're going to lose a lot. I mean, look, you're gonna lose a lot anyway on the cookoff of the bacon, right? But, I mean, so much of, uh, so much of fish sauce. I mean, look, fish sauce is a couple of different things. It's salty, right? It's high in umami because of protein and lipid breakdown product. Well, not umami not because of lipid, but protein breakdown products, but it also got lipid breakdown products in there, right? And so, but it has a huge volatile component as well. So my feeling is you'll be able to get, you know, a lot of the more stable stuff in there, but you're
+
+[8:26] going to lose a lot of the volatile characteristics
+
+[8:30] of it. I don't know what the salt content of
+
+[8:34] a standard fish sauce is, but they're widely variant, depending on brand. I remember that from my research years ago. Um, But, um, you don't want to just, you don't want the high liquids content. Is that the problem? I mean, I like the fact that when you dry chair, it stays flat and you don't lose a lot of liquid. I mean, I realize that I could do an injection method, uh, like they do in industry. So I could try that too, right? Well, I mean, what you could do is you could dry it, right? And then you could just have, you could, sorry, you're right, inject it, wet, but then just go through a little bit of
+
+[9:08] a relatively high, um, a relatively high, uh,
+
+[9:14] humidity dry down period in the fridge before you smoke it out. You know what I'm saying? Okay, yeah. Flash off some of the extra moisture that you put into it by injecting, but my feeling
+
+[9:27] is is that if you really want that flavor of fish sauce, which, you know, every, you know, some
+
+[9:34] people, they don't like the smell of it, but they're just mistaken. You know, the stuff is delicious. If you want that, then, you know, I would go with, uh, I would use very little else, uh, because my guess, I mean, it depends on the fish sauce you use, but it's probably pretty close to what you need,
+
+[9:50] right? I mean, is it? I got to remember the percentages of it. But then, and then just let a little bit of the moisture flash off under controlled conditions of
+
+[10:01] temperature for a while prior to Smokedown. Okay, sounds good. So just as a closeout, I was wondering if you had a chance to try the
+
+[10:09] IPA, I dropped off at BDX. I haven't. I going there. going there tonight. I'm going to hopefully get a hold of it tonight and we'll give you a shout out next week. Awesome. Well, that's it. Well, let me know if it's good or bad. We thought it came out pretty good. All right. Well, what was your, what was your initial gravity on that? All right, cheers. Wait, wait, what was the OG on the IPA? What was the, what was the OG? What was the specific gravity on the wart? Do you remember? We didn't really go through that whole process. We were kind of drinking and smoking things in terms of meat. So we were just kind of doing a quick brew, so we didn't pay attention too much to that stuff. Smoking meat, not smoking what the vegan stoner to smoking, presumably. Exactly. All right. All right. Well, we'll let you know what happens. All right, cheers. Cheers. Thanks for calling. Okay. Oh, by the way, back to the vegan stoner thing. Did you see the did you were you watching the CNN Sanjay Gupta's weed thing? Have you seen that? Oh yeah, I saw that. I thought I was really interested by that. Why did you give a synopsis? We did not watch it. Well, the synopsis is that, uh, you know, remember when, um, remember when Peter Tosh said legalized marijuana in
+
+[11:22] a Jamaica, remember this? A has a song. several songs actually on the subject, but, you know, it goes through the medicinal, the medicinal benefits of marijuana. it turns out that it's probably true. You know? Anyway, uh, so, uh, Landon Young writes uh, writes in on the Twitter. He's at food geeky. Cooking issues, planning a vitamin X versus the competition blend off. What task would show off slash reveal the blender's strengths and weaknesses? I like that it's vitamix versus everybody else. Now, listen, listen, here's the deal. There's a couple of things that are hard to judge and that, you know, I remember, I think it was, I forget who it was. It was either consumer reports or what's the one
+
+[12:06] that from Boston, the magazine from Boston. I was an initial subscriber, Cooks Illustrated. I did a, did a, I was, I was one of the, I was the charters. I had the charter issues of that. Yeah, it's good. you know, anyways, wrong. But the, uh, the point is, is that people often do the wrong things with blenders and don't really show off
+
+[12:25] why uh, Vita Prep is such a piece of butt kicking machinery, right? Now, for instance, most of the time when people review it, they're like, does it make a smoothie as fast
+
+[12:37] as some of the other blenders? Is it smoothie? Nobody cares in a kitchen, a professional kitchen. Nobody cares about a smoothie, right? Well, is it what? All right, we'll get back to the blenders in a second. Color, you're on the air. Hi, Dave and everyone else. Um, I just wanted to call in and ask um, a little more information about Ika Gime. Oh, nice. Which I understand a little bit about. I know it's a process of, you know, killing fish and inserting rods into their spinal cord to prevent or, I guess,
+
+[13:11] um, kind of delay rigor mortis. But what is the real reason people do it? Um, I guess I've heard like firm or flesh, but like, what are the upsides and downsides? And why not more people do? Okay, that excellent questions. By the way, you want to, you want to call out your name or no? Oh, hi, I'm Kate. Hey, Kate. So the 1st of all, Ikigime in general is the whole battery of Japanese fish killing techniques. Okay? And then the specific technique of destroying the spinal cord
+
+[13:46] is they've told me is called Shinkenuki, which means like no spine, I think, right? And it involves running a wire up the spinal cord. So all the Japanese fish killing techniques are designed. Whether or not you believe they work or not, are designed to increase the quality of
+
+[14:06] the of the fish flesh. I've noticed it most, most pronounced in, um, in the firmness in the texture of the fish, although there are some taste differences we've noticed as well.
+
+[14:20] And, uh, also the, you know, we have found that it's more, it's makes more of a difference in raw prepped as opposed to cooked prep, although some people disagree with me. But so that's what it is. But the idea is this. in a nutshell is that the standard Western style killing technique of just whacking
+
+[14:41] it something over the head or bleeding it out while it's alive or letting it suffocate to death in a well of a boat,
+
+[14:47] it puts a lot of stress on the fish as it's dying. And the stress from the fish dying, whether it's, you know, because of hypoxia, because it doesn't have enough oxygen or whether it's, you know, blunt trauma and bleed out all this stuff, or, you know,
+
+[15:03] just, you know, whatever's pumping through the fish's system as it's as it's in its fight or flight mode.
+
+[15:08] All of those things have deleterious qualities on the quality of the flesh from an eating standpoint. Now, the Ikigime, especially the spinal cord destruction, right? So Ikigime starts with severing the brain's connection to the rest of the of the fish, right? So you're shutting off all of the, you're shutting off all of the transmissions from the brain to the muscles of the fish.
+
+[15:32] And presumably, therefore, shutting off the ability of the dying fish brain to make changes to its body
+
+[15:40] chemistry. Now, they, so the way that I was taught originally was just to sever the spinal
+
+[15:46] core. But on larger fish, I really think it's a better idea to, and they make these special curved knives, that you actually take out the brain of the fish prior to severing the spinal cord,
+
+[15:56] right? Now, when you sever the spinal cord, The spinal cord severing it both at the tail and at the front is also a bleeding technique because, you know, the belief in
+
+[16:06] Japan, and I think, you know, pretty much borne out that you want to get most of the blood out. And by severing the arteries near the head and at the tail, you get a fairly efficient pump out of blood into water.
+
+[16:19] So that's why you'll see in these techniques, the fish will be cut and then bled in water
+
+[16:23] off and to get most of the salt water usually, isotonic, hopefully, to the fish's blood system, pump out the blood to get a
+
+[16:30] well bled fish. Okay? Now. So then the real question is, and it seems fairly easy to understand that you're going to influence the quality of the fish flesh by quickly killing the brain or severing the spinal
+
+[16:43] cord. The interesting question is this extra step of shoving a wire up the spinal cord. Well, what the hell can that accomplish, right? Well, turns out that the spinal cord continues to send electrical impulses to the muscles,
+
+[16:59] even in the absence of, you know, central nervous system control from the brain. So what happens is, is that if you don't destroy the spinal cord, especially in very, uh, kind of long swimming, like pelagic style fish, like tuna, striped bass, these kinds of things, um, the spinal cord will continue to send messages to the muscle to contract, and
+
+[17:24] therefore the muscles will, uh, the muscles will use more ATP, which is the energy store of the muscle,
+
+[17:32] uh, then they will if you destroy the spinal cord. And the faster the ATP is used up, the faster the fish goes into rigor
+
+[17:39] mortis, and usually the harder the fish goes into rigor mortis. And fish flash is so delicate that hard rigor can actually do damage, such that when it comes out of rigor mortis, that fish
+
+[17:49] is, it starts having gaping in the, in the, in the flesh, that the flesh is softer, not as firm as it would be, had you delayed rigor mortis.
+
+[17:59] And so that's kind of the, those are the overarching reasons for the techniques. Okay. Um, and I guess, is it primarily, um, I mean, the texture, but also like, is it so people can keep the fish longer or something? Like, can
+
+[18:15] that, I don't? I mean, so so what we used to call Western style fish killing when we did it was, you know, it does deteriorate more quickly, but the interesting thing about
+
+[18:28] Ikigime. Look, fish actually isn't best the 2nd you catch it, regardless of what, you know, anyone's
+
+[18:34] going to tell you. Very few preparations taste good with. I mean, there's whole nations of people with 1000000000s of people that will disagree with me on this. But, you know, most of us in either Japanese style preparation, most Japanese style preparations or in a
+
+[18:49] Western style preparation, prefer a fish that's come out of rigor mortis. right? And everybody knows you have to either, you have to either eat the fish before it goes into rigor, which means instantaneously after death, you have to cook
+
+[19:00] it, or you have to wait for it to go through rigor. And even if you do it before rigor sets in, Uh, you know, it's still going to be a lot firmer and almost crunchy for a lot of preparations. And you can use that to your advantage. But, um, you really kind of want the fish to come out of rigor. So it's true that when you have something that has had the spinal cord destroyed, it takes longer for it to come out of
+
+[19:22] rigor. So its optimum eating point usually happens after the optimum eating point of a standard
+
+[19:28] Western style kill fish. But, uh, that fish at its best is usually for the ones where it responds well to this technique, uh, is usually at its, its
+
+[19:40] best is usually much better than the Western style variant, and the Western style variant will get softer and mushier, much faster than the, um, than the spinal cord, uh, a bladed one will.
+
+[19:50] And as to your other question, I didn't answer, which is why don't more people do it? Well, part of it is education. And part of it is high cost. Um, you know, and the other thing is, is that, you know, if you, if you take a fish and you, um, and you pull it on a boat, it's had a huge fight,
+
+[20:08] right? It's already gone through a lot of the problems that are going to cause it to, you know,
+
+[20:13] it's exhausted most of its ATP. It's, uh, you know, it's it's gone through a lot already. And so the benefits might be marginal at that point. You know, when you're when they're killing a very high value fish, like tuna, especially in farm situations, they will, uh, electro
+
+[20:30] stun so the fish doesn't know anything that's happening, pull it up on deck, and and put the spinal cord, uh, do the spinal cord
+
+[20:35] ablation because they know that the market value of the fish is so high. Uh, you know, there's also experiments in, um, there's experiments in uh, Australia, New
+
+[20:45] Zealand with not experiments. commercial where in New Zealand, you're allowed to use fish anesthetic acquiesce, which is based on clove oil, isousinal, and they use that to anesthetize the fish prior to bleed out because they've seen that a less afraid or less, you know, whatever you want to call, you know, what's going on in the fish's brain prior to
+
+[21:05] slaughter is if there's less of that going on that the quality is better. And so those guys, it's not approved or at least wasn't last time I looked here in the US, strangely, but it's an ongoing area of
+
+[21:17] research and most of it's driven by economics. Cool. Um, Is, yeah, I guess, I guess that explains it. I just heard the term recently and looked it up and thought I should call an S. Yeah, well, please, you know, I love it. I haven't had a, I haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of experimenting with it recently. My hope was always that the more we bring attention to it as a technique, the more,
+
+[21:42] you know, fish sellers will start to, you know, to demand this
+
+[21:46] process boat side and then demand a premium price for it. And then if people start calling it out, then you'll see more of it in the marketplace, especially for things
+
+[21:54] that we intend to eat as sushi grade. And so it's, you know, the idea isn't
+
+[21:59] that that most of us are ever going to practice it or that restaurant wise, you should practice it because by the time a live fish makes it to a restaurant, it's been pretty
+
+[22:07] abused usually. You know what I mean? Um, The idea is, is to have people um, accept the,
+
+[22:15] the, the benefits of the practice and pay more, pay more for it, and then it'll happen more, I think. Cool. All right. Well thank you. Thank you. Thanks for calling in. All right, so back to the Vita Prep. How about a quick break? Oh, all right. We'll take a quick break. before the quick break. Wait, we got a shout out Chris Hubing, who became a member, listener of cooking issues. Thanks for the support. you. you. Well, coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[23:27] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[23:43] restateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. Jack, is that your magical Zamfir stuff in the background? Oh yeah. Willy, willy, I like that. like, you know, space, it's like the space center. It's like music NASA would play. Yeah, planetarium music, basically, yeah. Yeah, like that. All right, good. For vegan stoners. Vegan stoners, planetarium, ICC music. Exactly. I would love to see Dorothy stoned out of her mind. Oh wow. Debbie. Oh, did I say that on air? Anyway. All right. Apparently we have a color, color. on the air. Yeah, hi, this is Patrick calling from Orient, New York. Where's Orient, New York? I've been I think I've been there. Where is he? It's at the very, very tip of the North Fork of Long Island. No, I haven't right on there. I'm thinking of Maine. Norient, Maine, I've been to. Go ahead. So I have a question about canning or really preserving fish and oil in jars. I've sort of, I've been trying it without fully curing a fish, just salting it lightly overnight in
+
+[24:56] the refrigerator, then barely cooking it in water, and then covering it in oil. And this way, I know it's not fully cured. It's not really safe to have a room temperature, but it seems to last like a week or 2 in the fridge without any ill
+
+[25:09] effects. And it tastes really, really good, even if you just use a neutral cooking oil. The question I have is, now I have access to a huge amount of bluefish out here that I sort of would like to make a lot of this before the season ends, and I'm wondering if it's suicidal to, to use this method, you know, without, without doing the full, you know, boil for 3 hours, pressure
+
+[25:32] tan, et cetera. That's sort of the traditional, uh, fish preservation technique. Right. That's a very interesting question. And, you know, I can't make any offhand. I'll say this. If you if you add nitrites to it, right? I don't know if you want to, but, you know, look, everyone knows what we're talking about here. We're worried about botulism, right? Uh, and and other kind of, there are some other, especially in fish, actually,
+
+[26:00] some some, uh, some cold tolerant, um, sport forming
+
+[26:05] pathogens. I pretty sure. I got her, it's been a while since I've looked up this this process. But fish keeping is a whole science and of itself. And people, definitely, remember, preserve things for long periods, think locks in a
+
+[26:19] fridge, in a fridge environment that haven't been cooked to hell. right? But I believe you're going to want to add, there's a couple things you need to know. You need to know what the moisture content of it is, and you need to know how much salt you're going to add, and then you're going to want to add, I would guess, for safety sakes, some nitrites to it. And if you, um, not 8s, ites. But if and if you if you get the right combination of that. I'm sure this is look upable on the web, then as long as you aren't going to store it at room temperature, if you're going to keep it refrigerated, you could probably make a safe product that's fairly close to what you're doing.
+
+[26:58] It's not going to be shelf stable. It's not canned, but you could probably make something that will inhibit the growth of
+
+[27:05] the kind of really nasty stuff in the fridge. But I'm hesitant to give you any actual numerical recommendations over the air without doing a lot of
+
+[27:17] research first. This is, I was, I was looking up traditional recipes and these sort of, you know, they have you cooked the hell out of the fish for like, you know, for a long
+
+[27:26] period and then Canada. So I guess, you know, that, that will destroy the texture of the fish. I mean, I'm not, I don't have access to a can or where I am in the 1st place. But it seems like the best flavor on the small scale experience experiments I've done
+
+[27:39] has been on stuff that's not, it doesn't feel fully cheered once it's, once it's out, you know, out of
+
+[27:46] salt. It's sort of, it has, it has the texture, slight texture, still fresh fish. So, it seems to be that, that's what I'm sort of worried about, is that the best flavor is not something that's gonna be saved,
+
+[27:57] the cure level, with the amount of salt, and, and like you said, adding, adding, adding
+
+[28:02] nitride to it as well. Right. Well, remember, the cooking itself isn't isn't obliterating the really dangerous stuff. It's obliterating the normal stuff. It's the canning that obliterates the normal stuff. And the reason that you probably have to cook the crap out of it 1st is because you're probably getting rid of water at that point.
+
+[28:19] You're lowering the water activity through a cooking. I mean, think about how confit works, you know? You do a long cook on it, and the meat is salty and dry. You know what I mean? In a good way. I mean, I happen to love confit. But, but, you know, your, your, like, the cook step isn't just a cook step. also a water control measure. Although, you could do a straight pressure can of the fish without the initial cook step after the curing and get a higher mush, but it's still going to
+
+[28:47] be, you're going to be cooking the hell out. It's gonna be different from what you want. I would. I mean, the other thought I had, is this something that, once you cover it in oil and let it, you know, I don't know, it's the flavor has pretty much been the same over, you know, one day versus 14 days in the
+
+[29:04] fridge, so it seems to not really age that much after the cure in the cooking. This is something that you could actually put in the freezer covered in oil and safely. Yeah, well, if you can come out intact. Uh, intact-ish. You know, like you're better off probably do it. Yeah, I mean, like doing it after the freezing it after the full step. botulism shouldn't grow in the freezer. You know what I mean? It should not grow in the freezer. Because I'm just, I'm willing to take the, you know, the experimental loss of, you know, a couple giant bluefish, you know, in
+
+[29:45] the greater interest of flavor here because they're just, they're so cheap here. They're like $2 a pound for Really? $8 I mean, an £8 fish, so. I really love bluefish. Just grilled anything. I really love bluefish. Bluefish really delicious. Uh, yeah, freezing. Nothing should grow. again, double check everything. Nothing of import should grow in in the freezer. Remember that I've never actually put a liquid oil pack in the freezer
+
+[30:13] before. Most times when you age oil canned fish, they're aging for years. You know what I mean? So like, you know, a lot of those changes, especially in the canned, you know, hermetically canned stuff, you're talking about years of
+
+[30:26] changes, not, you know, days, weeks. Uh, you know, and and confit, when you age it even, it's like, you know, like a month or more, when you
+
+[30:34] age like a duck confit, which I love that aged duck comfit flavor. But, um, I, yeah, I feel fairly comfortable that if you freeze it, you're going to be in a safe zone, but I've never, I've never frozen a packed product in a liquid fat
+
+[30:50] before. I've only frozen them in a solid pack. Remember when you freeze, freezing actually can accelerate, uh, uh, rancidity of of things, uh, because uh, the water fraction that's there is more
+
+[31:02] concentrated, and so you can have things go rancid, uh, pretty hardcore in the in the freezer, uh, if there's any oxygen. So you're going to want to really pack that stuff without any air at all. I mean, obviously it's covered in oil, so it's going to be less of a problem, but you want to get all the air out of the bag. Yeah. And you think just something like canola oil would freeze it. I mean, I've frozen, you know, like, like you said, solid fat pretty well, but I just never, you know,
+
+[31:28] never really comes up of, of, of freezing, freezing liquid fat. I mean, most of your liquid fats have been winterized, so they're not going to freeze at all. Do you know what I mean? in the in the freezer. I mean, they, I would guess that canola is completely winterized and won't go solid, although I've never put it in the
+
+[31:44] freezer. I mean, olive oil gets sludgy, right? Uh, and and also tastes good, but the, uh, costs more. But the, yeah, canola, my guess is that canola will stay. I don't remember what temperature canola starts getting sludgy because it's been a long time since
+
+[32:04] I've like, you know, tried to, I've done cold oil curification of Agar with something like grape seed, but you know, so it's been a long time since I've tested the limits of sludginess of those oils, but they're all winterized, so they shouldn't probably get too solid in the freezer.
+
+[32:17] But it's still, it's just the temperature and not the consistency that matters from the food safety standpoint. Yes, that is my guess. That is my that is my educated guess. Yes. That is the temperature. I have all this I have this duck fat out there, too. Maybe I could put the position there. uh, you know, combination of, of, of species experiment. I don't know, I like that. Remember, like there's that famous the famous Chinese dish called Happy Family where it's like all different kinds of animals put together. No, that Nova's Ark with the translation, right? All right. I'm going to start this experiment. I'll report back. Yeah please do. Let's know how it goes. you so much. All right, thank you. Okay, then bye-bye. Orient, New York. you ever been there, Stas? You been after the tip. Yeah, no, not there, though. Have you? No. All right, listen, I'm going to get through this Vita prep thing now. All right? Now, we were talking about Vita Preps versus other blenders. There's 2 things. There's one, there's ultimate blending ability, right? And other blenders, the blend tech, for instance, have, you know, very good blending capabilities. And there's another one I saw that's a lot cheaper than a VitaPrep that actually has, I think, is blade interchangeable with the
+
+[33:25] VitaPrep called the Omniblender. Also has a 3 horsepower motor. Omni blender. Anyway, it has 3 horsepower motor and like a really kind of like a good looking blade, actually. In fact, it looks like the blade might be superior to vitapreps. I'm not sure. But, uh, and it's a lot cheaper, but when you look at the controls for it, you realize that one of the reasons that cooks love Vitapreps is not based on, you know, uh, making fruit smoothies.
+
+[33:50] It's the control mechanisms of vitapreps are amazing. Two paddle switches and a knob, very intuitive, very good for cooks. So any, um, any rating of professional quality blenders has to take into account what it's like to use them when you're cooking,
+
+[34:08] uh, you know, especially when you're cooking heavy duty in a kitchen over long periods and you need it to have a good
+
+[34:13] touch, a good feel. And I think one of the reasons other than blending ability that, uh, we all love the Vitaprep so much is the way that it becomes an extension of your hands. Uh, the thing we hate about it is that if you lose the plunger, which cooks invariably lose the freaking plunger, you have to beat on it to get it to blend properly, although they have new, they have a new pitcher that apparently is much better in that regard closer to what the uh,
+
+[34:37] blend tech pitcher is like. Here are some things to test out. Can you blend a pound of bacon into a tomato sauce and have it be silky smooth? Right? That's a good test. Um, other things like that. I mean, what's interesting about the Vita Prep isn't that you can make a smoothie with it. What's interesting about it is that you no longer need to use a tammy when you're making
+
+[34:59] sauces because the vita prep can make things that smooth. So those are the things that you want to test. And then if you absolutely need to, you can see whether or not it makes a decent margarita, right? Yeah, although I do like myself a frozen margarita. Me too. stuff tastes good. You know what? The thing is, people like, some stuff that you grew up with. Yeah, it's day class A, stuff delicious. Delicious. You know, it's like, I'm sick of people hating on things that are common if they taste good. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm sick with that. Anyway, uh, Aaron Moran from Edmonton, Canada. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, by the way, calls in about cooling. Hey, all, just had a quick question about super cooling with a circulator. I soon remember Dave briefly touching on the topic using the circulator to speed along the chilling process post-cooking. This got me thinking, can I drop my water bath below freezing without destroying my wonderful circulator. I've noticed it goes below freezing, but I'm too scared to drop it down out of fear of destroying my baby. I think of putting unopened bottles of water in the bath for an hour or so. Should I put some ice or salt in there as well? I have an old school polycience, 7306 model. That's this old stainless bottom one, the old one. That's Das's favorite. She had her happy face on there. Could I do it with other models? Should I protect the bottles so they're not being knocked around in the icy bath? Thanks in advance. Aaron Moran from Edmonton, Alberta. PS, can you answer this on the next show? Because I'm waiting to do this technique on a dinner party on Saturday. Okay, look it. Lookity, look. I use this technique all the time with my circulator. That circulator, if my memory serves me, can go down to about -20 Celsius. That's the lowest I've ever taken. I don't know if it goes below that. I meant to test it in the newer plastic one before I came in, but I forgot. I forgot to test it, whether or not that thing can be set below zero, but yeah, so here's what you do. And I do this all the time at events where I want to chill down large batches of
+
+[36:46] cocktails. is one of my favorite cocktail chilling techniques for events because it's fairly accurate. You get a big tray. Uh, you fill it with vodka, uh, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, vodka, and then you throw dry ice into it. And then you set the circulator in on high circulation and you set it to whatever you want your cocktail temperature to be, right? And then you just let it run and what happens is as the, as the dry ice chills it below your set point, the heater will come
+
+[37:18] on and will heat your, the vodka back up to the temperature you want it to be. And then as you notice that the dry ice is almost gone, you break off a couple more chips of dry ice and you throw it
+
+[37:29] in and you can keep a very accurate temperature on drinks for
+
+[37:33] hours. And this is my favorite way to do carbonated batch or to
+
+[37:37] hold like large batch cocktails for long periods of time. And I've done it many, many, many, many times and I've never hurt the circulator not once. You could probably also do it with salt water, be aware that you might eventually pit or corrode the 316
+
+[37:51] stainless, that is on it with large amounts of salt. Uh, but saltwater bass can be controlled just on a uh, on assault ice basis. Um, so, you know, you might not need the circulator. You might need the circulator, but you might not need the heating effect. I typically use dry ice. That's the way I do it. Okay. Uh, John Riper writes in about peaches. That's apropos, right? The name riper peach is good, right? Yeah. Deer cooking issues piece, Pacific Northwest food guru, by the way, you like tongue twisters? No, go ahead, do it. Willies. You did it last time, actually. What? I did? said it, yeah. yeah. Anyway, I can't touch with her. Pacific Northwest food guru. John Rowley has always preached that getting great peaches. This is John's giving us all preached great peach. It's a tongue twisting question we got here. As always preached, getting great peaches means never having to say they've been refrigerated, but I've never heard why chilling picked
+
+[38:49] peaches, screws up their final ripening process. Can you explain it? Also, I've heard different opinions about whether the sugar content in peaches goes up after they've been picked. What's the truth? John Riper in Seattle? Uh, I don't really know much about John Rowley, except I went to his website there, and he advocates using crappy white bread with tomato sandwiches so that the bread doesn't get in the
+
+[39:09] way. And I wholeheartedly agree. I think you should use crappy white bread for like really good BLTs. You? I freaking love BLTs, man. BLT is so delicious. And you got Martin's white bread is good, yeah. The potato bread? Yeah, I mean, that's like kind of the well, okay, okay. What we mean is soft and gets out of the way fast. Yes. And so Martin's is kind of the epitome of that style soft and gets away, gets out
+
+[39:30] of any, whatever, okay? Okay, here it is. So, um, There is
+
+[39:39] an interesting thing about this, and I read, and so I read a bunch of things. Oh, by the way, shout out to At Quantastic on the Twitter, AJ at Quantastic, who Twitter
+
+[39:50] tweeted, tweeted me, tweeted to me. What do you say? Oh, yeah, she's Stas. That's a curse. family program. A while back that he had some peaches that had what looked like some
+
+[40:00] botritis on them, the noble rot, and that they were amazingly delicious. I guess after some of the moisture had evaporated out after the patrol. Anyway, he's he really liked them. And I found out that in fact, betritis on peaches is an issue and they treat with fungicides. I like that word, fungicide. You like that word, fast? Because you hate, well, you hate, yeah, man, fungi, fungi sad. Anyway. So, uh, uh, some articles you might want to look at about this whole thing is interactions among cooling, fungicide, and
+
+[40:27] post harvest ripening temperature on Peaches, 1999, and the influence of cooling and temperature maintenance on the quality of California grown stone fruit, FG
+
+[40:35] Missile Mitchell, 1986. So, here's the deal. There's a whole series of things in peaches called chilling injuries. And what happens, peaches are typically, if you want to ripen a peach, you want a peach to ripen at roughly 20 degrees Celsius, right? And peaches will ripen after they've picked. I'm assuming that they don't ripen the same way, uh, when they're picked as they would if you let them sit on the tree. But the fact of the matter is, if you let them completely ripen until they soft on the tree, they can't be shipped at all. like one of the most fragile things that exist, right? So, um, So you can't, you can't do it. So you can't commercially do that. I mean, if you have your own tree, you can do it but you can't commercially do it. So, the fruits, once they're picked, they want to be ripened at 20 degrees C. What's going to happen is you're going to get probably an increase in bricks, an increase in total dissolved solids, and you get breakdown of the pectins because the fruit softens, and furthermore, there's probably a reduction in total acidity,
+
+[41:29] right? And the creation of volatile flavor compounds for the ripening that you wouldn't get if you didn't let it
+
+[41:34] ripe between. Anyway, problem is, peaches are picked usually at like higher than 20 degrees Celsius because they're being picked out in the middle of an orchard in California when it's piss hot in the summertime, right?
+
+[41:45] Piss hot. And so what you need to do is chill, they commercially, what they do is they try to chill the peaches down very quickly when they get out of the orchard.
+
+[41:55] Now, the, and they need to do that because when they're warm and they're being handled and packed, they're much more apt to be bruised, destroyed, and the rot and fungus that come in out of the
+
+[42:05] orchards and the different organisms, right, work very rapidly at those high temperatures.
+
+[42:10] So they try to get the temperatures down as quickly as possible. And then if they're going to employ a fungicide or something else, they put it on when they're cooling it, then after they've packed it and they're in a stable place where they've been packed, then prior to
+
+[42:22] sale, they ripen them out at the higher temperatures, right? Let them go through their, let them go through their business. Problem is, is that peaches, when they're held at refrigeration temperature from like 4 degrees Celsius to like 10 degrees
+
+[42:35] Celsius, in that range, when they're held there for a long period of time, they have what's called a chill
+
+[42:41] injury, such that they never ripen properly. And I tried to look through what causes this and it's relatively unclear to me what the actual cause is, but it monkey wrench
+
+[42:50] is, the ripening process, so that it never happens even after the fruit's been warmed up. Now, temporary chilling doesn't seem to have this effect so that storage in the refrigerator for like a day or
+
+[43:03] two, once you let it come back up, it might throw off the ripening, it might mess it up, but it's not going to prevent ripening from happening.
+
+[43:09] Now, all right, let me finish this and we'll take the color. So the, uh, but the, the, interestingly, if you take the peaches all the way down to zero, but don't let them freeze in that very narrow window, like 0 to 2 degrees Celsius, they don't necessarily get those chill injuries.
+
+[43:25] And also, if you take your peaches and they do what's called intermittent warming, so they have them in cold storage, and every couple of days, they bring the ramp the temperature up
+
+[43:34] to like, you know, to higher ripening temperature and then cool it back down again. If you do that you can also stop what's called the chill injury. But it's a specific, it's a known thing with peaches, and they get what's called a woolly defect where there's almost no flavor. They don't soften right and they taste kind of woolly and mealy. You like peaches that are willy and mealy? It's the worst, right? Is there anything worse? This is why I always get nectarines instead of peaches because, yeah, because the peaches we get here in New York, they suck. They suck. And when you touch it and it's kind of soft and then you're like, this is gonna be good, but it's... It never is. For some reason, they do a much better job getting nectarines to us here in the market. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hi Dave, this is Steven from Indianapolis again. I called him about 2 weeks ago for the neutropedic question. Oh, yeah. So what was the upshot? What happened? So, um, it ends up at the hospital is extremely strict rules, and no matter what I give her, I have to microwave it beforehand anyways. So, uh, which I think is kind of crap, but uh, I mean, that's the way it goes. I got the yogurt dancer, though. Oh, what was it? Oh, so, so, uh, a pathogen, uh,
+
+[44:38] so a pathogen or a bacteria in your gut is different than a bacteria in your blood. And if, uh, since we have a a line of defense in our blood, which is our neutral build, uh, that, that, uh, that bacteria, uh, will be, you know,
+
+[44:52] will the, the immune response will take care of it, which she can't do. So, I mean, it got back to you is not necessarily okay to have in your blood. So if it can get into your blood. So that's the reason I got. I also had another doctor tell me that they would give their patients yogurt if they could, uh, if the hospital would allow it. So, I mean, it's still kind of a, it seems like a gray area, but,
+
+[45:12] but, uh, that's, that's an answer that I received. So what I, what I'm feeling from, what I'm feeling from what you're saying is, is that hospital policy is super
+
+[45:21] draconian, to make sure nothing happens, but the doctor says it, yeah. The only problem with this, I think, as we discussed last time, is that it turns out that patient outcome is better if they like the food that they're eating. Yeah, definitely. My, my mom, uh, for instance, my, well, my mom is a person that's in the
+
+[45:38] hospital, and she, she just, like, she won't eat the hospital, so it's crap. So we, we end up cooking our soups and stuff that are, that hold up well with the microwaving
+
+[45:46] and and she eats that, uh, eats that well. Right. And by the way, what you're pointing out is something that I think cooks, a lot of institutional cooks and even cooks in general, and you've hit the nail on the head with this, is that if you have a set of parameters that are unvarying, right?
+
+[46:02] I have to cook the crap out of this, then only choose foods that survive that well.
+
+[46:08] Don't try to make things that can't have the crap cooked out of them and still taste good. Like, like, for instance, like, I don't know whether you guys can deal with salt. I don't know what the salt issues are with the diet, but like comfit would be great. Okay, yeah, definitely, because you can meet the hell out of that and it's fine. Yeah, you can beat it. That's all, I can say that on there. No, it's fine. That's good. But yeah, you could just, you could cook the ever-loving. Yeah, you can cook, you can. it's meant to be cooked that way. So people often make the mistake of trying to cook things that can't be, um,
+
+[46:37] cooked given a certain set of parameters and doing it well and and then serving that. Why? Why? There are plenty of things out there that taste good when they've when they've been cooked to death, you know? Right. Well, and it seems like a lot of the parameters that are laid out by the
+
+[46:53] hospital for the average, uh, so for the average family, that, you know, they, they don't have a, like a family member that's super into the science behind
+
+[47:01] cooking. So, like, shellfish is one of the things that they can't have, and I believe that that's because of, uh, what you discussed a while ago in tarot toxins, that could be present in, in, uh, seafood that's not treated well.
+
+[47:13] or something like that. So, so they, they pretty much just, uh, assume that, that the, that the patients aren't going to prepare it as well as they should, is what I'm assuming. And so yeah, you're right. They're, they're very hypersensitive. Right. But I mean, you know, but that's the thing. So that's when you have to put on kind of an engineer's mindset. You know, I got plenty of engineers in my family, so it's easy for me to do. You put on the engineer's mindset, you're like, well, let's not think about, you know, we have a set of givens.
+
+[47:38] What are the set of givens? Now, what's the best we can do within that set of givens, you know, rather than wishing that you could make something that you can't make within your set of
+
+[47:48] givens? You know what I'm saying? And I think, and it's real, it's actually very good practice for cooking in general because, um, every, every moment in your life, I guess no matter what you're doing, but I think mainly about the kitchen, you always have a, you know, a set of limitations that you have to deal
+
+[48:06] with and your ability to do the best possible job with the limitations you
+
+[48:10] have, determine how good you are as a cook. You know what I mean? Definitely. I completely agree. I know you don't have a lot of time, so do you mind if I ask you the question real quick? Sure. But I came on the air to ask you another question. Uh, so, so I, I was curious about the transglutaminates and the, uh, and the noodles that Wiley Dufrain makes. Uh, you said that he, he does like trans, transically intimidating gelatin noodles. Yep. Uh, I noticed what I was looking through uh, the types of translucent I used to get because I know you do like Tiva RM most of the time. Uh, which is the K team, I believe, right? Yep. Okay. One of them has gelatin in it. And I was curious if it did not cross link or did not solidify because the concentration of gelatin was so low that they're not actually interacting
+
+[48:57] that well. Well, there's 2 at least last time I checked. There were 2 different transplantaminates is meat glue, by the way, for those that don't know what we're talking about. It's what, you know, bonds proteins together covalently, actually. There's 2 different, and the enzyme is transgutaminates, and typically there's a helper protein in it that is used kind of to bridge the gaps between what would otherwise be 2 pieces of meat that
+
+[49:20] on a molecular level are fairly far apart. Okay. So, uh, in the one that's most commonly used by chefs is called Activa, RM, and it's transglutaminates mixed with caseine, milk protein. There are 2 or were, at least, last time I checked, 2 different transcutaminases that had gelatin as a component. There was GB, which stands for greatest bond, and that's been around for a long time. And a lot of the reason that, you know, Nils and I never recommended using that one is because it
+
+[49:47] kind of sets up tacky pretty quickly and it's hard to reposition. So and we didn't necessarily need that huge bond strength that comes from the GB. Because it does cross-link. The other one that we used. And so I don't know anyone that keeps GB around. The other one is called GS and GS is one that has gelatin in it that also has phosphates in it that's designed to sit on the counter as a slurry because the enzyme doesn't work until it's been painted on the
+
+[50:13] meat because the phosphates in it keep it too alkaline for the enzymes to work properly. So yeah, they will cross link. But what you want, I don't know what the specific gelatin characteristics are, the ones that are in GB and GS. Wiley's recipe. He says you can use RM, but I'm almost 100% sure that he uses Activa TI, which is just
+
+[50:35] Activa and Maltodextrin with no helper protein in it. And the reason why is we've had failure of his recipe when we use RM because you actually don't want the gelatin
+
+[50:49] bond into anything but itself. Okay? So if there's caseine protein, if there's caseine in there, or other proteins that the stuff's bonding to when you're making these, uh, these kind of
+
+[50:59] vegetable based gelatin noodles, uh, we ended up not getting the awesome gelatin cross-linking because a lot of the gelatin was cross-linking to other things.
+
+[51:08] At least that's our theory. So we always had much better results with that his gelatin recipe when
+
+[51:14] you use TI. So what he would do is he would hydrate the he would make this puree, very low moisture content purees. He would then hydrate, you know, regular gelatin. I don't know what he used, like Knox or equivalent. Nox is fairly high bloom strength. And then, uh, make the slurry, let that cool down a little bit, add the TI to that, and then mix the whole thing together, spread
+
+[51:36] it, and let it set. And that's, you know, really what he's looking for is the cross-linking of gelatin there. Am I answering the question or no? No, you're completely answering the question. One more part to it. you're running out of time, but, uh, do, do, has you ever done time-based studies of, uh, like, have you ever done time-based, uh, uh, during
+
+[51:53] determination reactions with, with, uh, gelatin to see like the relative rates of cross-linkage to see like if it, the melting point just, uh, increases over time
+
+[52:02] or, or is that? I'm sure it does because ultimate strength increases over time. So you get like 75% of your bond strength in the 1st 4 hours. However, you get a lot more, if you let it sit overnight. And so, I'm pretty sure Wiley does as much as
+
+[52:21] possible, right? Yeah, right. And it's the same with a lot of hydrocolloids, actually gel strength changes, and it's not the same, but in hydrocolloids as well, gel strength changes over time, which is why they, you know, they make
+
+[52:32] the pimento strips in the center of olives are made from alginate. And they age those for a day because their gel strength changes
+
+[52:41] dramatically and whether or not they're going to snap changes dramatically after they've been aged for a day.
+
+[52:46] So a lot of these prelimmerization reactions have the majority of the thing happens fairly quickly, but then there are continued changes for a long period of time afterwards.
+
+[52:57] Okay, um, and and just just, uh, one more question. Is there any way that, like, maybe next time or whatever, you could talk about, like, good articles and stuff to talk
+
+[53:06] about, uh, like, food memorization reactions and relative, like, what I'm curious about is hydration rates to see, uh, how the gel is affected by different hydration, uh, hydration, you know? On gelatin in particular? Uh, I'm I'm actually interested in hydrocollards in general. Yeah, I'll come up with some good references, and some that are like partially, and
+
+[53:26] we'll give them a shout out or I'll tweet them out during the week or something like that. We'll give them a shout out next week. If you can remember to send in the question about it, um, to like the email, then it'll, it'll help us not forget. Perfect. I'll do that Thanks a lot. Cool, thank you. Jason Bazant writes in, pronounces you would Van Zantz, I guess Bazant. Bezant pronounces you would Van Zant. I like that. Now I'm thinking of the EastFreet band. Okay, Jason Bazant writes in about high notes and cooking potatoes. I'm your biggest fan. I think I can make a good case for this assertion. More later. For now. I've heard you talk about the high notes and bass notes, et cetera, when talking about flavor and various preparations. I love this analogy as I'm a musician, but I'm yet to fully appreciate what this means when it comes to putting a dish together. Are you able to outline the origins of this type of thinking? I imagine it's ultimately a matter of balancing across the whole spectrum, acid,
+
+[54:11] bitters, sweet, sour, etc. It sounds like it's more applicable to beverages than, say, dishes, but I'm not sure. I'm a savory guy when it comes to cooking. Can you talk about this, please? And second, I'll just mention both things and then we'll go into them this way that I have to answer them both, right? My wife cubed a bunch of potatoes and cooked it in the microwave with water until
+
+[54:28] tender and then let it completely cool much to my chagrin prior to mashing. Her idea was to make mash for our 18 month old son. Now, I know how to make a mashed potato. Face punchably, so I guess he's punching himself in the face as his wife is doing this. I feel for you, brother. I noticed her mashing the cold potato with a fork into a total gloop, hoping for a good result. I pointed out to her some starch basics. Bad idea, your note, not mine, but it also, obviously, it's a bad idea. When someone is doing something horrible in the kitchen. Like, unless you are literally their boss, it's like really a bad idea, tell them what they're doing is horrifying. You know what I'm saying? Because, but you can't hide it. You can't hide it. The look on your face of horror cannot be hid. And then they ask. The worst is when you buy the food and take it to somebody's house. And they ruin your food. You know, here's the worst because you hate it. You know how to do it. And then they look at you and they can tell that you want to kill. you don't want to kill your web. You know what I'm saying? They can tell that you're upset. You know what I mean? And then they ask you, what's wrong? And you can't lie and say nothing's wrong because you're looking at them and like everything that you feel as a person says that what they're doing is horribly destructive to the quality of the
+
+[55:36] food that otherwise was cared for quite well until it reached their hands and was destroyed,
+
+[55:40] right? But it turns out that when you do that to your spouse, bad things happen. I know this is why my wife won't cook with me ever. She says I'm an a-hole in the in the kitchen, that her words. Anyway. So I pointed out there were some starch basics and she threw up her hands and said, you fix it then and promptly went to bed.
+
+[55:56] All I wanted to do was throw it out. But then I thought, I'll ask Dave. Obviously, this glooped out mash deserves to be thrown away, but can you think of any reasonable culinary application for such a ridiculous preparation? All right, we'll go in reverse. By the way, can I go a little bit late today, guys? All right, I got to wrap this up. Okay. Unfortunately. Okay. So the so we're going in reverse. So the potatoes, as mashed potatoes, are pretty much ruined, right? They're done. But you can mix them into things like croquettes. If you're frying things out, or we were just talking about it. Martin's potato bread, potato bread is a good use for old mashed potatoes, right stuff? Yeah, I wouldn't do gnocchi. Gnocchi, I would want it fresh. wouldn't you want it fresh from gnocchi? But potato bread you could probably get away with. But here's another interesting point that you might want to think about. Nils Norin. Uh, you know, uh, you worked with for years at the French culinary, who's a monster cook. He used to make a mashed potato, like a glue on
+
+[56:52] purpose. And it's part of this whole thing that McGee talks about. I talk about, Nils talks about, if you push something that is a defect so far in the defect direction, sometimes it comes around to being good
+
+[57:03] again, so he would overcook potatoes. Then add extra liquid to them, if you can imagine this, then blend them in a Vita prep to shatter all the starch granules and turn it into kind of a pasty glue and then flavor it.
+
+[57:16] And the idea was to accentuate that potato puree with that kind of interesting kind of gluey texture, not try to have it be mashed potatoes at all. And I got to say it's pretty good. Now your starch is probably retrograded somewhat, especially if it's old, so it's not going to maybe work the same way, but you could try just pushing the glue all the way, reheat the hell out of it, add extra liquid, turn it into a glue, or use it in
+
+[57:38] the, use it, use it that other way. Now, as to the high notes. Um, I'm getting I'm getting the high sign. Listen, listen, I'm going to answer this 1st thing on the next, on the next program. I'm also going to answer Jacob's question about bird grinders and coffee. I'm going to answer David's question about muffin style mixing, and I'm going to talk to Dandy about recreating recipes from the Applebee's
+
+[58:04] appetizer menu. Anyway, next time on cooking issues.
+
+[58:15] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes stored by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and sons, third-generation curemasters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams,
+
+[0:08] bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey farms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies. She's coming to your live from the British Pizzeria in the back of the book. Yeah, in Bushway, Brooklyn. Brooklyn. How you doing, Stas? Join us usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Got a full crew today. We got Pedro here is new filming the program today. Is Jack still over there? did he hightail it out? No, I'm here. Hi, Jack, Joe, saw Eddie in the back full crew, right? Full crew. Full crew. Call any questions, two, 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Cooking questions, non-cooking questions, whatever. You have a lot of questions. Yeah, I do. But before I do that, we have a theory in from at Leapers 500 on Twitter. A theory about Nastasia's Hate of Everything. Wow. Yeah, right? And and by the way, I just have to warn you, uh, leapers, I can't believe he's the 500th leaper. Is that possible? Anyway, I just have to warn you that you are about to start some sort of evil feud with Nastasia, not necessarily something you want to do, but the theory
+
+[1:35] is, she hates everything because secretly she wants the wonder of her universal hatred to keep people asking her what she
+
+[1:42] likes. Nah I think he's given that way too much thought That's weird. Wow. Wow. So Nastasia hated that. All right, very good, very good. All right. I'm on last week's questions first, right? Well, you got a special greeting too. should probably do that. Oh, that's right. That's right. Hold on. let's do that right after you coming. want to do it at the top? Yeah. All right, hold on a second. We don't know, we don't know what, which one though, right? No we don't. All right. A very special happy birthday to John Rapper out in Seattle. Happy birthday, brother. Thanks for listening to the show and contributing so many interesting questions, right? Yeah, we got a chance to meet him and his wife when they came up. You were in Senegal, but they were lovely and brought us all some nice little
+
+[2:37] gifts. I like this. Gifts are good. I'd say there are our favorite listeners. Yeah, really? For me, speak for myself. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, it's like I try not to play favorites with our loyal, loyal listeners. Okay, we have some questions from last week are going to hit. Jacob wrote in about Berg Rogers. Hey, hope you're still the manda for this onto the rest of the crew. I don't know who you've mailed it to. Was that Jack? Maybe. I'm looking for a good bird grinder at home, but we're talking about coffee, people. I make mostly pour over. Pourover is a horrible. They need to think like, I guess drip's also a bad word, but pour over sounds like com over, doesn't it, Stas? Like pour over coffee, comb over coffee. Anyway. but I make mainly pour over and espresso. I was looking at the Breville, BCG, 800 XL smart grinder. What is your take? I'm hoping to find something that makes effing good coffee. It's all bleeped out because he says, I know you're a family trying to make this a family show from Jacob. Okay. Okay, so look, just so you guys know my take on this. So everyone, not everyone, a lot of people, they spend a lot of money on their espresso machine, right? mean, it's just something people do. They spend a lot of money on their espresso machine. And they always, then don't, well, not always. Often, don't spend enough money on the grinder. And it turns out that the grinder, in terms of the quality of your coffee, is almost an equal partner to your espresso machine. So if you don't get an espresso machine. I mean, a grinder rather that's up to snuff for your espresso machine, then, hey, what's the point? You know what I'm saying? Now, back when I bought my grinder, which was many, many, many,
+
+[4:11] many moons ago, I got the Rancilio Rocky, which at the time was the best option for, you know, semi-serious home
+
+[4:22] folks cost $350 and my wife made something akin to Nastasia's vegan face when she found out that I had purchased
+
+[4:30] it because it seemed like a lot at the time. That does a good job. It's a flat grinder, right? It's okay. And now, 12 years later, I think 12, maybe a couple more years later that I've had it, you know, it needs new set of burrs
+
+[4:45] now, probably, or needs sharpening. But a couple years after I got mine, everyone said, you know what, the one to get is the
+
+[4:54] Mazer mini, right? Now, the Mazra mini is functionally in a professional espresso grinder. You could find it, you know, if it's small for a professional setup, but it functions in the same fashion as a full-size professional espresso grinder.
+
+[5:07] It's 575 bucks, all right? Now, it's really freaking expensive. It's 575 bucks, but the great thing about the Mazar mini for espresso is that it's got a very fine grind adjustment.
+
+[5:19] It's got nice conical burs that are fairly large, aren't going to warm up your coffee. fairly repeatable. And that is kind of the standard by which all home possible grinders for espresso are rated. Now, I'm not such a big. I don't really think too much about grind quality for pour over, but in essence, the problem you're going to have is that you're going to be doing a lot of adjusting between pour over and
+
+[5:44] not pour over. I mean, I leave mine tuned close to what I want for espresso and my
+
+[5:50] rocky and then I never touch it. And then well, it's not true. Like whenever I'm doing a shot, I'll adjust it up or down based on how the shots are pouring today, which is, I believe, a
+
+[5:59] lot, not just to do with the beans, but also the relative humidity. anyway. But, you know, it kind of wants to stay close to being dialed in, I don't like to move it around a lot. Now, you might want to consider getting an inexpensive grinder for your pullover and a really expensive one or if you can afford it, a more expensive one for
+
+[6:18] your, um, for your espresso. I've also heard good things about the Los San Marco lower end professional one. I had one that was out of whack that I picked up used. I never got to work right, so I don't really want to talk about it because I don't really want to talk about it. Now, as to the one you're asking me about, the Breville BCG 800 XL smart grinder. I've never used it ever. I went and looked at it. It's a lot cheaper than the Rocky, which is the one that I have, or it's 150 bucks cheaper. It's 199 bucks apparently. I looked at a coffee geek, which, although they haven't had a lot of recent postings, as far as I can tell, was the website that I used to go to all the time when I was in the
+
+[6:57] coffee purchasing and coffee thinking mode, more of a coffee thinking and purchasing mode. And their gripe about it is that it's, well, they say it's a good grinder, but they say that the adjustment on it for the grind adjustment is not fine enough to really perfectly dial in an espresso
+
+[7:14] shot. That's the gripe. And I heard that gripe from a couple of people who seemed relatively knowledgeable about what was going on. Not that it's a bad quality grinder, but just that the grind adjustment wasn't fine enough. And I don't know if that's something that can be hacked or tweaked, but if so in other words, consistent, which is important, but not adjustable enough.
+
+[7:32] So that's, that's, that's what it is. What do you think? Good. Enough. Yeah, okay. I never tell whether I can, whether I've said enough or too little or too much. Okay. David writes in about the muffin style. I like that. That should be a new dance. You gonna make that dance up stuff? Muffin style? No? Ragamuffin, you're not going to do some sort of muffin dance? No? All right. Uh, hey, cooking issues. In the muffin method, sugar is treated as a wet ingredient. I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves are readily in water. You want to grab that before the muffin question? I want you people to think about muffins and I'm going to take this collar. Color, you're on the air. Hi. Um, my name is Latima. I was just, I recently started eating only egg whites because I heard it was healthier. Is that true? I don't believe so. Who told you that? I've read it That there is more cholesterol and fat in the yolk. That's true. More protein in the white. That's true. But do you have high cholesterol? I don't think so, no? But I don't want to have high cholesterol either. Yeah. Well, you know, so look, you make you make your own cholesterol. Here's it. Egg yolks are one of nature's miracles. They're amazing. Like they taste delicious. I think you have to agree that when you eat only the egg white, that it does not taste anywhere near as delicious as when the egg yolk is in
+
+[8:56] it. And I also don't think that the products that you make with it are going to be as satisfying, meaning you're probably going to have to eat more of it. Now, I can see, you know, if you have, um, if you
+
+[9:09] need for some reason, just a whole boatload of, uh, protein for some reason that I can't understand, then, yeah, I guess you could go with egg whites, but the fact of the matter
+
+[9:19] is, there's not that many calories in a whole egg. So it depends on how much, I mean, and there is there is quite a bit of, uh, you know, fats, cholesterol, phospholipids, things like that. But, you know, a lot of that, I think is good stuff. I mean, it's supposed to be nourishing. It grows a chicken, you know, so I think that you're much better off if you're really worried about the caloric intake, just eating slightly
+
+[9:41] less and enjoying the taste of real whole eggs in an omelette or scrambled
+
+[9:46] formatter, anything like that. I mean, there's plenty of places where I use egg whites, like when I make age food cakes, which I think are delicious, although
+
+[9:53] stars disagree, some meat doesn't like age food cake. But, um, you see, but do you disagree with me or no? I think yoles are really good, but, um, the protein and egg is like supernatural protein or
+
+[10:08] something, and like the protein that you get in meat or fish or whatever else isn't as good, the quality of the protein isn't as good as the protein and the egg.
+
+[10:20] Right, I mean, I have to, I have, it's been a long time since I've looked up theoretical, um, completeness of proteins across the board, but I mean, egg, egg is, you know, nature's miracle kind of food. You could grow a whole chicken from it. I'm not a firm believer in. I mean, like I said, there are proteins that are deficient. So for instance, you know, if you eat only, uh, you know, certain grains, the proteins in them can be
+
+[10:44] deficient, they need to be made up in other ways because they don't contain, um, the right balance of amino acids. But I don't know that the quality of protein from an egg is going to be fundamentally different in terms of what your body does with it from one in meat. It is a, you know, a very high source of protein. But like I said, most of us have most of us get much more protein than we need in this country,
+
+[11:08] right? So you have no need for an extremely concentrated protein source unless you're a bodybuilder,
+
+[11:13] which I don't know, maybe you're a bodybuilder. Uh, but, you know, the, the, my firm belief is that you
+
+[11:21] should uh, eat the, eat foods in the way that make them taste good, that that's going to make you
+
+[11:27] sated faster. You're not going to necessarily eat as much or be driven to eat as much if you just focus on trying to make products that, you know, that
+
+[11:37] taste good. And egg is a nutritional marvel, you know, yolk or not. I mean, think about it, from a cooking standpoint, the yolks are a miracle because they have all sorts of emulsification
+
+[11:48] properties, aside from the fact that they're delicious. Um, so I would, I would say that unless you have a specific need to get rid of uh, the egg yolks that you should keep on using
+
+[12:03] them because they're delicious. So what am I losing by not eating the yolk? In terms of taste? And terms of nutritional values. I'd have to look it up. I mean, there's, I'd have to look up what's, what's in it, like what, uh, I'm sure that there's some sort of, uh, like awesome list of, you know, vitamins and minerals and whatnot that are in the
+
+[12:25] yolk. I don't I don't normally keep that stuff like rolling in the front of my head because I'm much more concerned with the yolk as a functional unit in cooking. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But, you know, my my feeling is that, you know, uh, the chicken doesn't grow from the white alone. The chicken grows from the egg yolk and egg white. I mean, the egg white is also a miracle because it's got like interesting antibacterial properties. It's one of the only, um, it's one of the only things that we eat that, uh, comes naturally alkaline, you know, basic in nature as opposed to acidic, uh,
+
+[13:01] so it's got, it's got some really interesting properties. Um, but, you know, I would never, you know, I would never break them. I would never eat an egg white only omelette, for instance. Never. Understood. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. So what were you talking about? We were talking about muffins. muffins. Muffins. In the muffin method. sugar is treated as a wet ingredient. I understand that this is possible because the sugar dissolves readily in water, but what's the actual benefit of doing
+
+[13:33] that? Would there be any difference in the final product if I treated my sugar as a dry ingredient instead of a wet ingredient? Thanks from David. That's interesting. I mean, um, I, I, I don't, I don't know. I mean, it's, one of the reasons, as you say, to put it in there, is that it dissolves readily, whereas all of the things that are in the dry ingredient list aren't really soluble in the liquid, but I don't really know if there would be any difference in the final product if you do one way or the
+
+[14:06] other. I doubt that you would hinder the hydration of your product too much. Perhaps if you used, perhaps the sugar wouldn't dissolve as readily, if there was other things competing and swelling with water, and so you actually want the sugar dissolved more. But I think it might be 601, half a dozen to the other. You know, I've never, I've never really thought about it. I would try it. I would make 2 batches of muffins and see whether they come out any differently. I mean, the that that method doesn't use any, for instance, whipping power of granulated
+
+[14:40] sugar. It's not like creaming or any of these other things where you're using the power of the
+
+[14:44] sugar as an actual aerating agent. So I don't really think it would make that much of a difference. But I could be wrong. Maybe the sugar won't dissolve if you do it that way because it doesn't have enough setting time for dissolve
+
+[14:54] out, and your flour won't hydrate the same way, and the whole thing will be a big massive crud with little sugar specs in it. Maybe. don't know. What do you think, Stas? You ever messed with the way you don't make muffins, do you? You're a muffin hater. You like muffins. No, I just don't bake. You don't have time to bake. Don't have time to bake. Your whole life, you've never had time to bake. used to. All right, so... Hey, it's my anniversary with you. Really? Yeah. What was that little secret? You don't care. I didn't say that. Yeah, you did. You said, you don't care. I saw you yesterday. And it's 4 years. Oh, 4 years? All right. So just so you know, she says that working with a cooking guy has stopped her from having the time to
+
+[15:35] bake. Right? Is that what you're fundamentally saying? Who is the one at work who will never step into the kitchen and actually do cooking work with us?
+
+[15:44] Whenever I cook anything for lunch, you're like, what is that? She's talking about the last year where she brings in leftovers and like heats it up. I'm talking about like all the years at the French culinary where we're like, oh my god, we have all this stuff to do in the kitchen. She's like, nope. Nope. And now she's saying that she doesn't have time to cook now that she works at home. Oh, I see. I see. All right. Dandy calls in from St. Louis regarding Applebee's, or as he puts it, Crapplebee's. You like that? Oh, that's what I used to call it. Yeah? I think a lot of people used to go. I mean, it's kind of a sad. It's kind of like, I won't get into it, but like, can you believe that they named a chain restaurant Fud Ruckers? I mean, it's kind of, it's a strange one. Anyway, Dave Hammer at all. I been asked to recreate an appetizer sampler platter. That's a tongue twister. Appetizer sampler platter based on the menu at Applebee's. The party hosts always think the food sounds good, but when it stinks, as it always does, they say they've been
+
+[16:37] crapple bead. Listen, this is not my opinions, by the way. This is Dan D from St. Louis, Missouri, talking here. Not my opinion. I have not ever been to an Applebee's, so I can't Never? Never. Wow. Yeah. After looking at the menu, and they have proposed, they gave a link to it, you can just go to applebee's.com if you're interested in looking at their appetizer menu. I decided to make wonton tacos with a Dobo style chicken. Uh, presumably not like Filipino, whatever. Uh, fried fish, uh, fried fresh mozzarella, and pretzels with beer cheese dip. That would be good. Pretzels with beer cheese dip. I mean, I don't really, do you like soft pretzel stars? Yeah? I like soft pretzels. I do, although I'm more of a hard pretzel aficionado, but I do like a good soft pretzel. I bought some sodium citrate from modernistpantry.com and use this recipe, HTTP, www,
+
+[17:29] chow.com recipes, blah, blah, blah, perfectly melting cheese. It's on chow. Setting aside the combination of cups, grams, and ounces in the recipe. It was far too thick for pourable cheese sauce. Should I just decrease the amount of cheese slash increase the liquid, or the amount of sodium citrate? Also, any suggestions for frying fresh mozzarella? My thought was to do a standard double dip kind of fry and test the mozzarella at room temp versus straight out of the fridge, but I wonder if I'm overlooking something. Love the show and I hate raps as well, Dandy. Well, uh, much as I don't know if I can cosign on
+
+[18:00] uh, the, um, on the recreation of the Applebee's menu. The, what I would say on the sodium citrate on the cheese thing is, is you have to
+
+[18:08] assess, the sodium citrate is going to increase the meltability and the
+
+[18:14] flowability and the, and the granularity of it. So it's a melting salt that's going to allow the casing to become smooth. So if your product is smooth, right? But just too thick, then I would add a liquid. If it's smooth as silk, but just too, but, but, um, sorry. If it's smooth as silk but too thick, add liquid. If it's clumpy or has some problem with texture other than actual viscosity, then you're having a problem with your emulsifying
+
+[18:47] salt. That makes sense, does? Yeah. Now, on the mozzarella. Whenever I make mozzarella, I do flour coat 1st in case to pick up any extra moisture, double dip, and then I fry it extremely
+
+[18:59] cold so that I get a crust forming before the cheese starts melting out.
+
+[19:04] I have never tried any sort of much higher tech thing like dusting it in methocell or anything like that. But, you know, you lose, what, like one in 10 mozzarella steaks, one in 15 mozzarella steaks when you fry them out. Another interesting thing you can fry is they make a, if you want to go a little off menu there
+
+[19:22] is, um, in South America, Well, in, in, what is it, Middle East, I guess? They make something called hallumi, which is a grillable cheese, hallumi good cheese, I think it says on the package. And in, uh, in Latin America, they make something called queso para Frier that you can fry. And that stuff, you can literally deep fry that sucker without a coating on
+
+[19:43] it. It doesn't melt out. And it's delicious, except when it cools down, it gets squeaky like you're chewing on Styrofoam. You got to eat that sucker hot out of the fryer or hot off the grill. But I highly recommend trying queso queso potter fierre or halloumi. It's really good with a little oil drizzle over the top, salt, pepper, grilled or fried. But back on your mozzarella, just coat that sucker like a demon, have it be cold. fry it till it's crisp. Uh, and then if you need to, uh, you know, you can throw it in an oven to melt out the inside, a little more of the problem. The most frying setups is that they batter
+
+[20:15] the the mozzarella around, you want to be really gentle with it and not do a lot of manipulation because if you break the crust at any point, you're going to get a leaker and then you're toasted.
+
+[20:24] Right stuff? Don't you hate baking mozzarella sticks? Do you like mozzarella sticks? Marinara sauce? Do you like fried kamari? What was the way that idiot pronounced calamari that time? You don't want anyway? Yeah, that's anyway, there you go. Connor Kerrigan writes in cooking issues. Have you ever made stock from freeze dried protein, a la David Chang's Mind of a Chef. Can I easily find freeze dried products? Yes, you can find freeze dried products, but no, I have never made stock from freeze dried stuff. I looked a little bit into it. I haven't spoken to Dave about this personally. I mean, I would I don't know the advantage of a freeze dried stock product except for the relative speed of
+
+[21:04] extraction. In other words, I don't know what would go on in the freeze drying of it that would actually increase
+
+[21:08] the ultimate total flavor extraction you could get from it. So I need to talk to him and see, see what it is. But no, I've never tried it. That was an easy one to answer, right? Answer is no, boom. Okay. Wait, should we take what time is it? You want to take a break? Let's go to our 1st commercial break. Cooking issues.
+
+[22:16] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hands are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[22:42] pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. We have a caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? All right. This is Christian from Michigan. Got a question for you. Two. Well, actually, 2 questions seemingly unrelated. Have you ever used the AeroPress as a means of being a clarifier? So, uh, how you use the um, cheese cloth? Could you use an arrow press to do the clarification? Okay, so, uh, what we're talking about, AeroPress is the relatively inexpensive coffee maker that uses a moderate amount of
+
+[23:30] pressure. It looks like a giant modified syringe, um, accurate so far. And so when you're saying, when you're saying clarification, I generally don't do, uh, I don't clarify via filtration, I use
+
+[23:42] cheesecloth for only for, um, holding back solids in something, let's say, like an Agar raft or in a gelatin raft.
+
+[23:54] And most of that when you're doing it, you're not, it's not that the pressure that's holding you back, it's the ultimate kind of leak rate you can get out of the
+
+[24:04] raft, and when you increase the pressure too much, You actually can start forcing product through your filter medium. What I actually use in those situations to increase the pressure just the right amount without causing
+
+[24:17] problems, squeeze through or clogging, is I use a salad spinner. So I'll put stuff in like a, in like a super bag or in like a, like a linen napkin, and I'll tie the neck off, like a sack, throw it in a salad spinner, and just spin it a bunch. And that and that one... And then I'll free up the mesh by picking it up and just rubbing gently the cloth together against yourself to free the pores out and then spinning it again. And you very rarely get any
+
+[24:43] Agar bleed through when you do that. Oh, okay. That's a much easier idea. I don't drink coffee, so I don't have an arrow press. Ah, there you go. Well, save your, save yourself the purchase. Although they do work well. I used to bring all sorts of complicated stuff, but now when I travel, I usually bring the
+
+[24:59] arrow press with me just because it's easy to carry. Cool. So the 2nd question is, have you ever done a DIY project for making
+
+[25:07] a, like a deep freeze unit? Like, how deep freeze? Like, so taking like a commercial blower unit and making your own kind
+
+[25:19] of, uh, I'm just looking to do like a rapid freeze unit without spending like 4 grand on a, on a true
+
+[25:25] commercial uh, freezer unit to get meat down the temperature quickly.
+
+[25:31] I hear my thoughts on that. So you're talking about prepared meats or pre- or pre-cooking or post-cooking? Uh pre-cooking. In bags? So yep. Okay. I would definitely do this. to answer your question first. I have not I've often thought about installing just like fan units inside my normal freezer to try and increase the rate of freezing a little bit because the air
+
+[25:57] is stagnant in there and the freeze rates are abysmal. The problem is, as opposed to a commercial blast freezer. I mean, you wouldn't want a fan going in there all the time because it's going to accelerate the drying effects that you're going to have in there, right? But, um, Commercial blast freezer not only
+
+[26:12] has like a large amount of air circulation, large amount, but it also has
+
+[26:16] a, uh, a huge cooling, uh, you know, a huge cooling output to match it.
+
+[26:22] So, you know, your freezer is not freezing at its fastest possible rate because it doesn't have air circulation or very much air circulation, but there is
+
+[26:34] a still a maximum rate at which your freezer can freeze because of the actual amount of cooling power that's being applied to the freezing box.
+
+[26:42] And so that's the part that's kind of hard to get around, is the fact that it's only ever going to put a certain number of watts of cooling per hour into your product.
+
+[26:51] You know what I'm saying? Or pull out of it. What I would do is put your product in zippies, ice and salt is very fast and
+
+[27:01] can freeze down to, you know, minus, I forget what it is off the top of my head, but
+
+[27:06] something like -17 or something like that. You know, it can freeze ice cream rock solid. And so you can do a very rapid, uh, freezing in a concentrated saltwater
+
+[27:18] brine and then, and you could possibly even store that brine in your freezer. Like, if you had a freezer, you were going to dedicate to this, you could possibly store a saturated salt brine in the freezer, tune the freezer, so it just wants to stay where it is.
+
+[27:32] And then you're storing a boatload of energy in the partially crystallized ice and then the
+
+[27:37] salt water brine. And that sucker would freeze your stuff very very quickly. Yeah, so then that, so then that saltwater brine would bring down the ambient temperature in the freezer compartment as well
+
+[27:49] then too. Well, so what you would do is, is you would use the, you would use the freezer over time to slowly add the energy, right, to make your, to make your brine,
+
+[28:01] and then it would not fully freeze until it got, well, you'd have to do some calculations on your
+
+[28:08] tectic freezing point to get it to work just right. But what you really want to do is store a bunch of ice at a temperature below freezing, have the freezer slowly input that energy over time, such that when you throw your meat in bags into the brine, it can very
+
+[28:22] rapidly cool it, right? And then you have the rest of the time to keep storing that energy again. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense? Yeah, that's pretty cool. Sweet. Well thanks for your help as usual. All right. Well, good luck and let us know what happens. Sounds good. Have a good one. All right. All right. Colin writes in about Popsicles in Britain. He says the Brits. I haven't heard from Colin in a while. The Brits invented a curious concoction called the Jelly Baby's wobbly lolly, another tongue twister. Jelly, jelly baby's wobbly lolly. And by the way, he adds, it's a popsicle or ice lolly. They call him ice lollies, I guess, in UK. That's an absurd word. Ice lolly. Would you ever say ice lolly, Pedro? I'd say ice lolly. Ice lolly. Maybe in reference to like music video or something. Music? Oh, yeah. Well there you go. It's an ice lolly that gets floppy when it melts thanks to Guar and Xanthan, although I have to
+
+[29:19] say in advance, reading the rest is, I don't think it's, well, we'll talk about it. You can look at it on this YouTube thing, which is going to be incomprehensible to you, but we'll get it out there on the web somehow. You can imagine that there are many more, and if you look at it, it's a little kid with, like, what amounts to some sort of fudgical thing that wobbles
+
+[29:39] around, like, uh, like, uh, what are those things called that you make out of Jell-O, the Knox blocks? They call them jigglers, right? So it's kind of like a mix between a fugs, fudgicle and a jiggler, and he's sitting there wobbling it back and forth. But Colin, of course, points out what is probably obvious to you. You can imagine there are many more semi-obcene videos featuring young women eating these pops. Uh, I will leave it at that. Here are the ingredients for lime flavor in honor of the limies that created them. Water, sugar, fruit juice, concentrate, 25%. strawberry and lime. Stabilizers, Xanthan gum, guargum, hydrolyzed pea protein, and salt, natural flavoring, acidity regulator, citric acid, and color, spinach extract, chlorospry chlorophyll.
+
+[30:22] Stas put the vegan face on for that one. Does the hydrolyzed protein player roll in the wobble? I seen it used as a protein supplement or to boost flavor via glutamic acid, but does it have a texture modifying properties as well? If you were to take a stab at a recipe to recreate these popsicles? What gum concentrations would you start with? Finally, have you made any other curiously textured frozen treats besides your world-famous potato
+
+[30:42] mock selepton derma? May the wobble be with you, Colin? First of all, yeah, the other one I've done also a sell-up rip-off is a mixture of guar and gelan, low asyl gelan, that that sucker also has a snap to it. I really like, and that one you can light on fire, which is awesome, and it doesn't melt because you make a fluid gel from the
+
+[31:03] geland and so it doesn't melt down. And that, tons of chefs have made gel and fluid gel ice creams. It's like, you know, man, man, I'm going to make a fluid gel ice cream. Man, man, it's like let it on fire. Mac. But when you add the guar, that's when you get the weird textural properties,
+
+[31:17] Guar and Jelen, which I still have only studied in frozen form. I don't really know why it works. We did it by accident. It happens. Anyway. What's going on here is it's not actually the Xanthan Guar that's causing that. Xanthan LBG, which is a close relative of Guar, will form a weird gel, but as far as I know, Xanthan Guar does not have that same synergism. What you're looking at here is actually, I believe, a synergism between Guargum and the hydrolyzed pea protein, hydrolyzed pea protein is a protein that's used because it has relatively neutral flavor, it's relatively
+
+[31:52] inexpensive and can be subbed in for things that might otherwise have like kind of a nasty flavor or people might not want for like soy protein or other protein
+
+[32:01] isolates or like milk protein or dairy protein isolates. So, uh, turns out, I looked up on the inner webs. And there is a, uh, uh, someone named Tamara, uh, Ronadhira had in uh, year 2000, her master's thesis in uh, Manitoba was enhanced gelation of field
+
+[32:20] p proteins through formation of multi-component systems using various polysaccharides. And guess which one had the most wobbly, it's
+
+[32:28] pea protein and ding, ding, ding, guar. So it's the guar and the pea protein together that are doing what we need to do in this situation. I don't, the Xanthan's probably just there, um, I guess to add some more body. I don't know whether it's there from a stabilizing standpoint because I couldn't find really fast what the free staw characteristics were of this. But, and also the one thing I don't know is how melting your mouth these systems are. But what you're looking at there is a pea protein guar thing, which I believe has to be heated for it to work before it's frozen, but I don't
+
+[33:00] know because I couldn't find out. But these these pops, I'm surprised they weren't advertised as protein pops because most of the p protein things that I've looked at were in the high range, like 10%
+
+[33:12] or a little more protein. Uh, so anyway, if anyone else has any information on these pea protein popsicles, pea protein popsicles.
+
+[33:19] We have alliteration all day today. You know what I'm saying? Give us a holler. Okay. Patrick Ciccone writes in on... Hey, you're Italian. you pronounce that Ciccone, right? Okay. Hey look, I got something right. On muscles and mollusks. Deer cooking issues, gangs. Thanks for your answer about preserving bluefish last week. I'll report back the results. It got me to rereading the fish chapter in Harold McGee, always a good idea, by the way, to reread any chapter in one of Harold McGee's books. I'm going to see him soon. We're doing the Harvard lecture together. And a little bit of secret. It's not a secret. You know, I think all of you know who have been following the MOFAD and the puffing gun that we like, the puffing gun. Well, we, at Booker and Dax, equipment corporation, have purchased our own mini puffing guns so that we can do, we can now do commercial puffing
+
+[34:05] experiments. Although the Chinese one complete, you know, it's whatever. It just comes completely unsafe. There are no, when I say unsafe, there are no safeties in it. So like our puffing gun, even though it was designed in the museum's puffing gun, even though it was designed in the 40s,
+
+[34:21] 39 actually, and made, you know, in the 50s, still has like all kinds of safety valves on it. so that you don't die. This sucker comes and it comes at styles, what that box look like? It was like all beaten to hell, right? Like the stuff falling out, literally stuff falling out of it, like all
+
+[34:36] crazy, and they just expect you to like want this thing together and put it up to 180
+
+[34:41] PSI and then hit it with a big old stick with no protections at all and no safety.
+
+[34:45] So we haven't fired it yet because we're busy constructing big, massive safety cages and like blow off valves and stuff like that. I don't even know why I was sick of it. Oh, because I'm hoping to take that to Harvard so that McGee and I can fire that for the Harvard class at the beginning of
+
+[34:58] the school year. Any, we'll let you know. Okay. Um, that's just because he said McGee. See what happens? See what kind of tangents I go on. I noticed that in the shellfish section, McGee says it's possible to cook the catch muscles of shellfish, i.e. those knobby muscles left on the shell of a clam or
+
+[35:15] oyster and not typically eaten since they are so tough. This is on page 224 of the 2004 edition in the
+
+[35:21] subsession, Tender Quick, tough catch. So I could not, I'll tell you what it says there. also paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me. I could not find any references to cooking the catch muscles anywhere else besides McGee. I was wondering if cooking via prolonged low temperature method might transform them into something delicious. I know you always warn against fish turning into mush with this method, but
+
+[35:41] it, but this muscle seems unlike anything else in the fish world, at least in terms of toughness. I'm always disappointed when I throw away what looks like a tiny scallop attached to the
+
+[35:49] shell and I'm now imagining this muscle transformed into something with real flavor and
+
+[35:53] texture, a scallop with the flavor of a clam, for example. Also, congrats to the MoFad Puffer launch. I'm sorry I missed the gun. I don't know if the museum is looking for a brick and mortar space anytime soon, but I have some ideas, so we should have Peter contact him. Anyway. So, I reread it. And in fact, it's quite interesting. So whenever you take, let's say, muscle or anything apart, there's always that little tough part attached to the shell. You know what we're talking about? or when you shuck a clam, so is that right? And so the adductor muscle, which is the main muscle in bivalves, i.e. 2 valves,
+
+[36:26] i.e. 2 shells. The main muscle, the adductor, is broken up into a couple of different types. One is meant for quick closing, right? And that's the one that we normally eat. Scallops are really good at that because they flap their shells open and shoot themselves across the bottom of the ocean.
+
+[36:42] So they have big, fast, you know, adductor muscles. And then a portion of the adductor muscle is designed to do what's called catch. And what that is, is like when you walk up to a clam and you're like, oh, yo, clam. And you try to open it, and it goes, whoa, and closes, and then you can't pry that sucker open, and even though it's been sitting there for like
+
+[37:00] hours or days, you can't pry it open, that is because of the specialized muscles that are called catch muscles.
+
+[37:06] And they're extremely interesting and they're tough. Uh, and so McGee does, in fact, say that you can, uh, uh, through long and slow cooking tenderize it. And I haven't tested this and I couldn't find a lot of reference to it over the web, but it's worth trying, but I did do some more research on that.
+
+[37:23] And it turns out that there's a lot of scientific study on catch muscles in bivalves, mollusks, and other arthropods because they
+
+[37:35] are able to maintain their rigidity, their contraction, even though they don't use a lot of energy for a long, long time. And so it turns out that there is a giant protein. So we have giant proteins in our muscles. They're called Titan type, but with an eye, not T-I-T-A-N, T-I-T-I-N, Titan, that is forms kind of
+
+[37:56] a part of the elasticity of our muscle, and it's actually the largest protein known. And there's a there's a related protein in uh, mollusks called um, called Twitchin, believe it or not. And that protein, the state of that protein allows the muscle to lock shut without expending any extra energy over very, very long periods of time. And it's unique kind of it's from invertebrate muscles. And it was just figured out in 1997. In fact, if you go on Wikipedia and you look up Myasin. It still, it still says that, that these muscles have their catch response based on, um, on
+
+[38:35] paramycin, which is an invertebrate only, uh, mycin type, with not true. It's just twitching stuff. The article you might want to read. I don't know if I have a link to it on my page to tell you on my paper here to tell you about, but go Google
+
+[38:47] it because here's what's interesting. I can't figure out any references to how to disable that just by
+
+[38:53] cooking because it's not a standard kind of collagen breakdown problem. But I gotta look at it. So it's very interesting, and when I see McGee, I'm going to ask him more about it. And sorry I didn't have a full answer, right? Anyway, I was like, I don't really care. I don't care. Alex writes in. Oh, by the way, I have a couple of questions on inductions. I'm going to combine them, all right? C wrote in about induction and Alex wrote in about induction. Um, I'll do I'll do C's first. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. Great show. After I discovered modest cuisine at home. I found your show, I've been blasting through the archives. Been a home brewer for about 5 years, and chemistry of beer got me very interested in food. I converted my brew system, DIY style to all electric a couple years ago and have not looked back. I you know, I stopped brewing 8 years ago. Last time I brewed was just before Dax was born. Anyway, my 2nd son. To all electrical beers, haven't looked back. After learning about low temp cooking and sous vide in modernist cuisine, I built my 1st immersion circulator with spare parts I had laying around the brew house. It worked great, but I wanted something insulated with a cover that was a little larger. Um, I built my 2nd immersion circulator for an arts fest party at Penn State, and
+
+[40:04] the Lions. I knew I'd never been there. I've always wanted to go to their dairy program over there. Here's really good. You ever been to Penn State? That's where my grandfather went. Yeah. Uh, where I uh, I retrofitted one of those igloo max cold 150 quart coolers with a 5,500 watt water heater element and a Ranko temp controller and backpack £30 of ribs. Each rack individually, of course, and cooked them at 143 Fahrenheit for 48 hours, then
+
+[40:26] finished them on a really hot Weber charcoal grill with woodchips. They were delicious, and I did indeed look like a rock star. I recently tossed out the fry daddy I bought in college. Good move. Friday, good starter, not a good, I mean, look, I'm not knowing, no insult to a fried daddy corporation, not enough power in a fried daddy, an inappily name. It should be called like, you know, Fried Jr. or like Fried Baby, Fried Baby. It should be called fried baby. It very small. In no way the daddy of deep fryers. I recently tossed out my fried daddy that I bought in college. I'm intrigued by your French fry process, my French fry process is a pain in the butt. It like involves like enzymatic treatment, then blanching, then some drying, depending on what the size of the fry is, then freezing, then twice frying.
+
+[41:07] Anyway. Um, I'm intrigued by your French fry process and want to also become the monk of the fry or whatever you call it. You've touched on induction cooktops in a couple of episodes. I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now. All right, so wait, I'm being told that I'm going to take a caller and then come back and answer this question about induction. Sure. Do you say there's color? Color, you're on the air. Hey, David, it's Brian in San Francisco. How you doing? Doing well. Good. Good, good. Um, question. So over the weekend, I tried to make some, um, banana pudding.
+
+[41:44] The flavors were delicious, but I, you know, the recipe I used called for some
+
+[41:49] cornstarch. So it ended up tasting a little bit, I guess, gritty. Um, and all the, the, the recipes I've seen for, you know, vanilla pudding or butterscotch pudding or banana, uh, a lot of them seem to call
+
+[42:04] for, um, some kind of, uh, of starch mixed in. Um, so, you know, I made a, a slurry before I, I, I mixed it
+
+[42:11] in and um, there were no lumps, but it didn't have the kind of same smoothness that, I really
+
+[42:20] wanted. And one thing that I saw was that after you kind of finish it after it sets, if you continue to stir it too much, then that might, uh, cause
+
+[42:33] some, some grittiness. So I'm wondering, a, should I continue using, um, for my puddings of starch, uh,
+
+[42:40] like, like corn starch or, or tapioca starch or something? Um, or what's uh, what's a better method? Huh. Well, you know, I don't do a lot of, um, I don't do a lot of puddings, but all the ones that I have done are with the
+
+[42:57] cornstarch. I gonna tell you what I'm gonna do, Stas. See, if you can get Piper to call in, because he's worked on all those pudding stuff. What? Oh, Piper's not around. I'll tell you what. I'll research. I'll research some putting stuff for you and we'll get back to you next week. Can you tweet it into me so I can drop it into my inbox for next week? I'll tweet it into reminding you about the puddings. All right, because I don't feel that I don't feel comfortable enough to answer you on puddings right off the top of my head. I'm going to look up some data on grittiness in it, but all the ones I've made,
+
+[43:28] typically I do. I do the old-fashioned cornstarchy ones. So I'll look into, also, tweet me the recipe that you used if you have it so we can troubleshoot that. I'll read it to you. Piper's my pudding man. Thanks so much. No problem. We'll get to it next week. Thanks so much. Okay, back to induction. I have a gas range for my normal cooking. I was wondering what you thought about the standalone induction cooktops available now. The infomercial new wave one can be had for $50. Have you seen this infomercial? New wave is an oven that they make some sort of what I think, I could tell from their advertising, is a kind of a home impingement oven, like a fast air impingement oven, but they also make something called a PIC precision induction
+
+[44:10] cooktop. But, you know, I'm dubious of any of the of the infomercial stuff. Unless it's a Billy Mays product. God bless Billy. May he rest in peace, right? You know I love Billy Mays. his voice. I would buy anything. It's like, you know, it's like Billy Mays. I would buy from him. I'd buy, you know, pretty much whatever Snoop Dogg tries to sell except for those awful liquor beverages that he repped. Okay. The new infomercial new wave one can be had for like $50. Since you can supposedly control the temperature rather accurately with these things, could it supplant a dedicated fryer for the home kitchen? No, is it powerful enough to keep a decent volume of oil at 375 or is it just another piece of TV infomercial junk? I don't know. I don't never used it. I don't know whether it's high quality. It does appear to have a bunch of nice functionality, but any attempt to use. Well, we'll get into this. Okay. Alternatively, can you recommend a model that you think would work for this application? Forgive me if you've already answered this question. Thanks. Keep up the good work and I'll be visiting both reverters and Booker and Dax the next time I'm in the city. And another question on induction in from Alex. Great show. Thanks for doing it. I was looking into getting started in induction cooking, but there seems to be a fair amount of incomplete or misinformation out there on the
+
+[45:19] internets. I even noticed that ModernistCuisine.com recommends a Max Burton model, but has a picture of a Mr. Induction at the top of the page. I am confused. What kind of power size features will I want? As long as you're throwing out recommendations. Is there any brand of pots and pans you particularly like on induction burners and burners? Is that the right word? Cooktops? They don't know. Oh, by the way, in England, going back to the ice lolly folks, they call them hobs, but I don't know anyone in the U.S. that calls their burner a
+
+[45:44] hob. Do you? Would you like to be, would does that sound gross to you, Hobb? Yeah. Yeah, Stas doesn't like Hobb. I would just keep calling it a burner, but if you're from the UK, you can call it an induction hub. Like Thomas Hobbs? Well, no, no, one B. HOB, like corn on the hob. Corn on the hob. Yeah. Like throw the corn on the cob in the pan. on the hob. Yeah, yeah, like that. Uh, okay. I will save my questions about the differences between a CVAP and a combi oven for another day. Thanks, Alex. because we will run out of time before I can get to that. Uh, although I can, hey, we will. anyway, whatever. Okay, so look. On all of your induction questions. First, uh, Max Burton, interesting thing about the Max Burton. There is a, I own one. I haven't started using it yet. All of those kind of small induction things are my guess relatively the same, meaning they all have relatively the same power output. I think they're roughly 1500 watts, 15 to 1800
+
+[46:41] watts, but you can't use a straight wattage output. And the reason that's why they are is because in the US, everything is designed to be run comfortably off of a 15
+
+[46:51] amp 120 volt wall socket. And so most companies are very loath to, on a consistent basis, pull more than about 1500 watts out of the wall. A little more. Uh, you know, anything more than that, and you're going to get into a commercial unit that uses 220
+
+[47:10] volts. And then you can start putting bigger wires in, you're going to have a much thicker cord, and then you can start pulling more wattage out. So if you were going to get an induction range in your house to supplant having a regular gas or
+
+[47:21] electric range, that's going to have a much bigger set of wires going to it. You can get a lot more power to it. Now, you cannot equate. You cannot equate the wattage directly to the wattage of an electric
+
+[47:33] heater because it is boatloads more efficient, just tons more efficient. Um, and so it's very hard and you can't really equate it to gas because it's a lot more efficient than gas.
+
+[47:44] Now, a very, very high output, uh, sorry, a very, very high output commercial gas burner will boil faster than one of these Mr. Burton
+
+[47:54] things. But the average, even semi-pro home gas burner will not boil water as quickly as a decent home induction
+
+[48:05] unit. And that's really the method. that's really what you want to test. How fast is it going to put heat into my product? The other great thing about induction, I've said this many times that I love, is that it's not going to heat up your whole kitchen because it's only heating the pan.
+
+[48:18] That said, you need to have pans that work well with the induction. And most pans, you can tell whether they've worked well with induction. You know 12nd when you put it down or not, whether it's going to work, but you know, a lot of new modern pans can work with induction, but you should check to make sure.
+
+[48:32] I don't have any particular one that I love or don't love, but I will tell you this. The thing that sucks about cooking with induction is that whenever you put a pan down on an induction burner. The induction burner sits there and tries to figure out what's being put on it. And so at 1st it makes this weird noise while it's trying to cycle through figuring out what the exact kind of frequency wants to hit your
+
+[48:55] pan with to get the maximum, you know, heating out of it. And by the way, for those of you that are looking up heating, induction heating in general can be done on any metal,
+
+[49:05] right? Because you're dealing with what's called I squared R loss, which is literally just like the power of resistance or heating it, but with an induction
+
+[49:12] cooking, cooking. You're not just doing that. You're using what's called the historesis loss of ferromagnetic materials to increase the effect of the induction thing going.
+
+[49:23] So that's why it's really only pans that are special for induction that will work. Whereas if you look up induction furnaces, you can easily do things like melt aluminum with them.
+
+[49:32] So that's the that's the dealio. But the special effect of induction only works up till what's called the
+
+[49:38] curry point of the metal. And that's why, for instance, I can't make or have not been able to make an induction version of my red hot poker
+
+[49:44] yet because the induction heating elements that you get will not heat things up to those levels.
+
+[49:49] Just a little aside in case anyone gives a crap. Now, back to induction heating. So the irritating thing about induction is, is it's constantly scanning for a pan. And if it doesn't find the pan, it goes ape on you. And so instead of just keeping the power there, it cycles off and on and gives you little weird error messages. So whenever you lift the pan to do a saute, it makes a little weird noises and it's irritating to get used to. You notice that stuff? You've never lifted the pan while you were cooking on it. You cook on induction every day. Oh, that thing, yeah. Yeah, I don't like it. It also doesn't have very good feedback, but it's fantastic, especially in pastry
+
+[50:24] cations, and they're getting, they're getting better and better. As for your Max Burton. The interesting thing about the Max Burton one is if you find these people on the webs called
+
+[50:31] open schemes.com. They have ripped apart, hacked, and described the circuit of that particular Max Burton
+
+[50:38] model, and it is particularly easy to tweak. Now don't, because it's dangerous. I don't want to hear that you electrocuted yourself because Dave Arnold told you to tweak it. I want you to go read open schemes website and blame them if you electrocute yourself. But I will say that they give detailed explanations of how to dork with that circuit. And so I have plenty of projects out there where I really want to mess with induction. And so if I'm going to do that, I'm going to do it with that Max Burton one. But you have to get a very specific Max Burton one. Okay, back to the question of frying on an induction. Here's the issue. Temperature control is not the name of the game in frying. It is temperature recovery. So what you need is not something that is going to, um, you know, keep a very accurate behind temperature, but one that as soon as the temperature
+
+[51:24] drops, just hits the oil with full force power until it gets back up and even maybe slightly above where you want to
+
+[51:32] go. That's the hallmark of a good fryer. And that's why PID control is not a good way to control the fryer. Now, maybe these folks have figured out some awesome way to, um,
+
+[51:43] to, like, program a fry cycle into their thing whereby it knows it's a fryer. So it goes into bang, bang, i.e. off on control like a fryer does, and just hits the oil like a ton of bricks with full power as soon as it drops below their temperature. But I don't know. You know, they're not, they can't possibly be doing the job that I want because they're measuring it through the pan, through the
+
+[52:03] oil, instead of measuring the oil, which is what I want you to do. They're measuring the temperature of the pan through the top of the heating element, which is not very fast. So they're not going to get very fast response time. So I'm guessing that they're not going to be super aggressive with the oil, which is what you want. The other problem with cooking on a stovetop. And I've said this and I'll keep saying it. Stovetop frying is never, ever going to be as good as commercial
+
+[52:30] tube, like a tube fryer frying because you don't have a cold zone.
+
+[52:35] Whenever you are heating from the bottom, particles are falling off of your
+
+[52:39] food, sinking to the bottom of the pan and scorching at the bottom and ruining the
+
+[52:43] oil. And also when you're heating from the bottom, you don't have a ton of surface area in contact with the oil. And so you have a lot of local overheating of the oil and it's problematic. You really want, if you really want to do frying right. You want to get yourself a tube fryer. And I've been and what happens there, the tubes have a huge surface area. And also there's what's called a cold zone underneath it. And I've been so that your particles fall through the hot zone into the cold zone and don't scorch out.
+
+[53:08] And I've been, no one makes a small one or a home one. don't really know why I don't know why. Anyway. Uh, hope that answers your question. We, I looks like, are we out of time or we're good? We have 2 minutes. All right. Alex writes in deer cookie issues team. Thanks for your help on the pressure cooker question. I sent a couple weeks ago. I recently came across an article online that suggested dry salting poultry instead of brining it. Obviously, you would lose the benefit of drawing more water into the meat, but really, isn't it kind of equivalent to watering down your
+
+[53:33] meat is dry salting, an alternative. If so, how much salt should be used for giving weight of meat, poultry, and fish? Any ideas about how long it would take would also be much appreciated. Thanks, Alex. All right, look, I like, look, here's the deal. If you're going to brine your meat, the reason to brine your meat is because you're going to take the meat above the temperature, which is going to start losing moisture, right? That's why we do it. One. Two to get salt into the meat. Now, if you're not gonna overcook the meat, you don't necessarily need to add a lot of water to it. However, you will be drawing water out of it by salting it because if you're doing a dry salting, you will pull liquid out and then the liquid will fall down, right? Whereas if you brought away from your product, unless it's brine, you know, bat bagged in there. If you're brining it, it will take up a little bit of extra water, but usually if you're going to overcook your product, you're going to lose too much water anyway, that's one of the reasons you
+
+[54:20] brined because the stuff wasn't moist enough when you came when you were done with it. So you needed it to pick up that extra moisture. Now, if you're not going to overcook it, then sure, you're salting it just for flavor. But, uh, I don't have a problem. When I do a light brine, first, it's a light brine for flavor. you're brining a fish, you're also brining a fish because, okay, brining for flavor, there's brining for, uh, and brining for
+
+[54:43] flavor you can do by salting on the outside. The problem with salting on the outside is it tends to be relatively concentrated on the outside. So unless you wipe it off and then let it equilibrate for a long time, you're going to get an overly salty outside and undersalt it inside, whereas a brine lets you be a little more gentle in your salt contact, just saying. And if you've ever tasted your brine that you've thrown your chicken into or your turkey afterwards. You know what it tastes like? Like salt water with a little bit of blood in it. You're not like sucking a lot of flavor out of your product. So your only real gripe is the water that you're putting into it, right? So sure, if you're flavoring, if you're brining for flavor, sure, dry salt it a little bit, and
+
+[55:17] then, you know, wipe it off, let it equilibrate for a little while, so it's not too salty on the
+
+[55:21] outside, and maybe you're going to be in luck, right? Or maybe not. Maybe it may be too salty on the outside. If you're brining because you're worried you're going to overcook it, then you want to add the extra moisture to
+
+[55:30] it, as well as get the salt in there because the salted proteins hold on to moisture better than the unsalted ones do. Okay? So there, it's, I mean, whatever. If you're going to overcook it, you want to add the moisture, period. The 3rd reason to brine something out on something like fish is because if you cook fish that hasn't been brined, especially with low temperature, you get too much of that white protein crap bubbling out of the fish and it spoils the appearance of the surface and a light brining will take care of that for you and stop that from
+
+[55:58] happening, and sure, you can do that by just salting the outside. If you're doing it just for flavor, I don't really have any ratios. I just go like this. You'd be, if you were looking at me, you'd be seeing my hand sprinkling salt over. I sprinkle a good coating of salt all around it and then let it sit, but I've never really measured it. Used to us? Anyway, I hope that helps. See you next week. Cooking issues.
+
+[56:25] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and
+
+[0:07] international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:17] Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. We're back from a 2 week hiatus. It's really unfortunate height. We didn't really mean to have it that way, right? I was in Austria one day. Harvard. And then Harvard and Austria, I couldn't, uh, I couldn't call in because we were actually shooting, uh, whatever the thing I was, I was in Austria for EC, the people that make the whipped cream makers. I was doing some rapid infusion stuff over there. And the whole crew was over in Harvard last week. We'll talk about that in a minute. Today, join as usual. Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah. Just have, you know, Joe's holding down the fort in the booth over there. How you doing, Joe? 's Jack? It's a little lonely. Yeah, I know. Where's Jack? It's Jack no love for us today, huh? Yeah, I guess not. He's just gone missing. I haven't seen him all day. Is he out, like, apple picking or something, at least very autumn? It's Apple picking weather right now. I don't know if the apples are ready yet, but it's Apple picking weather. Speaking of, I hear this year is going to be a good harvest for apples. So look for look for me to start screaming about how much I love certain apple varieties they come in. Ash meets kernel. My favorite. Remember the Ashme's kernel drink? So good. If I can get a good supply of Ashmead's kernel from, uh, I'll tell you what. After I locate my supply of Ashmeath's kernel and buy everything I'll need, I'll tell everyone else where they can go get the Ashmeath
+
+[1:43] kernel, because, you know, we're allowed to hold a little bit back for ourselves, am I right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Joe, what are you been up to? anything good? No, I've, uh, you know, I'm kind of like a very summer person, so
+
+[1:54] I've kind of just like mourning the loss of my favorite season. Oh, really? Yeah, but I guess it will be nice to like go apple picking and stuff. Oh yeah, that would be great. Yeah, plus I hate the sun. Ooh, I hate it. Oh, it's my enemy. Without it, I kind of like turn into a raisin, which would you think would be the opposite. Yeah, yeah. I just go from pasty to lobster and back and back and forth. It's my 2 speeds, pasty and lobster. So, uh, coat of questions two, 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. Oh, by the way, Star, do you want to tell them what happened in the Harvard? No, you. What? You have a good spin on it. I do? All right. So what happens what happens? So, like, every year for the past, I think, 3 years been going up to Harvard. They have this, like, what's it, what do you even call it, science and cooking, something like this? Yeah. Science. Yeah, science cooking. And do the 1st lecture with Harold McGee and kind of kick off this kind of science, you know, science cooking, you know, thing of a jig because they figure, you know, most of the chefs are going to bring
+
+[2:51] in are going to do actual chef demonstrations and they get, you know, Harold and I doing some demo and some yapping to kind of kick it off and to start with the science aspect
+
+[2:59] of it, right? Right. Okay. So this year, Harold's like, hey, Dave, why don't you, he doesn't tell me this. He's like, hey, Dave, why don't you bring the puffin gun up and we'll, you know, we'll use the puffin gun. I was like, well, you know, Harold, the puffing gun is 32 pounds. What are you talking about what happened in the car first? Well, okay, well, okay. So some torches got packed. What would it tell this? People don't want to know this. So, we're packing the car. First of all, 1st things first. bought a miniature puffing gun, which I think I might have talked about on the show. I'm not sure. We bought the same one that was used on the Mythbusters program. You can get it from Chinese popcorncanon.com, I believe, is what's called Chinese popcorn.com. I don't recommend you purchase this item unless you are well versed in adding safety gear because it comes with no safeties at all. as we become parents. So, Piper and I, from, you know, Booker and Dax, we built a huge safety cage for it, so it's safe.
+
+[3:47] We added some over-pressure release valve so that we couldn't get it wouldn't explode. And if it did, nothing bad would happen, et cetera, et cetera. Lay out all the safety nonsense. And then we load this thing, which is only a couple 100 pounds, really, into my Subaru route back. We drive it up to Harvard, but as we load this stuff in, we put a bunch of torches in, and we forgot to switch the torches into the full off position safety note for you guys. So all of a sudden, we're about to pull out of the parking lot. We hear, And we were like, what the? I'm like, stop, stop. We start smelling the propane because the torches were on, right? Yeah. So, and you know, Piper and Nastasia are like, you know, this is, this is just bodating ill for the whole trip, is what's happening now. So Piper opens the, opens the, you know, the, the case where we had packed the torches and jokes, which makes me believe he did this on purpose. He's like, he doesn't talk like that either. What if I flash off this propane right now? Wouldn't that be funny? And then he clicks the button and flashes the propane off. Piper doesn't have much of arm hair anymore. Right? Well, stars, you enjoyed the ride. You were right next to it, right? Yeah, awesome. Sweet, right? So anyway, so I'm like, well, we've had our blooper moment, right? So we go up to Harvard, you know, hot and heavy with
+
+[5:01] this, well, not, well, whatever. With this puffing gun, we unload it. We set it up in this in this now, for those of you who have never been to up to Harvard, they had this thing called the science center where everyone does the big science demonstrations, right? And we load it in there and it's a public lecture, so it's, you know, it's not students necessarily. It's anyone from the community around Cambridge, Boston can come see it. I think it's free, right? It's free. So they show up. It's, you know, pretty full, pretty packed, you know, house and, uh, We had fired the gun twice to test it beforehand to make sure that we had all this
+
+[5:32] stuff down. So we go to fire it, and the freaking sealant around the inside of the puffing gun gave
+
+[5:38] way, and the puffing gun started to unspin, which means, now here's the thing. a puffing gun relies on the fact that you're volatilizing
+
+[5:45] the, uh, some of the moisture that's inherent inside of grain. So we start with rice, let's say, around 17% moisture. Uh, 15. I forget, the one we have is fairly high moisture, 17%. We're using Ishiki, I think. You start with a relatively high moisture rice. You put it into the puffing gun. A small portion of that moisture is volatilized and used to pressurize the puffing gun. And the rest of the moisture that's in the rice is used to gelatinize the starch at very high temperatures,
+
+[6:12] right? And then to flash off when you open the gun, expand and puff it. So the moisture has 22 rolls there. If there's even a small leak in a puffing gun, a small leak,
+
+[6:24] you, uh, like when you volatilize the liquid, it leaves, and then you keep sucking moisture out, and then eventually you don't have enough moisture left to puff or to build pressure, and so you just scorch your product into like
+
+[6:34] tittle scorch pellets. So I notice that the pressure thing is fluctuating. I'm like, oh no, there's a little leak. I look over, I see the ceiling. Piper and I can see that it's unspinning. So in kind of a last minute attempt to get it to work, I jacked the heat a little bit for a minute, realized I wasn't going to get the pressure up, but here's the problem. You have to vent it anyway because the pressure's going to keep going up and you don't want the safety to go off, right? Right. So we knocked the thing open. It flies out. We spray scorched, uh, we, you know,
+
+[7:02] nastasia and I actually sewed a beautiful, we have this thing. If you look at the YouTube videos of these things and action in, um, in China, everyone fires into what we lovingly call the filthy sock. There's like a filthy sock on the ground that they fire this stuff into that they then, you know, anyway. So Nastasia and I made our own filthy sock. I think the filthy socket is quite nice. Yeah. I broke my sewing machine on it, and Nastasia broke her sewing machine on. So it's a 2 sewing machine, filthy sock problem. So anyways, so we and we fire all these like burnt rice pellets into the filthy sock and I think it's
+
+[7:31] over, right? Only we set off the damned fire alarms, and the entire building had to be evacuated, and there was a bunch of like science, science people in lab
+
+[7:40] coats, like sitting there moping, not being able to do their experiments on the side, on the sidewalk. So all in all, a frigging nightmare, right? My favorite was, is that, uh, that it got picked up in in eater, and then
+
+[7:55] the comment was, someone someone put a comment, you didn't miss much. There's a reason this guy's never had a chef's job. Right? Oh, this sweet comment. You like that? Oh, haters. Anyway, so that's what we've been doing for the past week. I'm gonna take some questions. They're already telling what number they're calling to. I did. I don't. 718-472-128. 7184972 and 28. Let get some questions because we have a bunch. Gloria Goodwin writes Glory Goodwin. Now I'm going to mispronounce your name, Gloria. What do you think? Rahija? Reheja? Yeah. What do you think? Rahija? Rahija? Rahija. Sorry, I just butchered your name. You know, listen, people, people who've written in more than once know that I'm going to butcher your name, right? So you might as well just give me a little pronunciation guide so that I don't butcher your name, which makes you feel bad and makes me feel stupid. It's a lose lose situation, right? I hate butchering people's names. Um, Speaking of butchering names, uh, uh, Riper, John Riper, who, who, by the way, told me how to pronounce his name,
+
+[8:52] Edwards is not Ripper, it's not repair, whatever, it's Riper. Thanks for the peaches, buddy. Peaches were delicious. I ate some peaches. Quite tasty. Although I have to say, listen, here's my feeling on peaches. Sorry, Glair, I'm going to get to this thing a second. The peaches. I am Moustache and I only really agree on one thing in life. right? And that is that the best peach is actually a nectarine, right? That's the kind of the only fundamental thing that we agree on in terms of food. You like nectarines better, yes? Yes, I do. Okay. But that's because we get, in general, kind of crappy peaches here in New York. You probably got better ones when you were growing up in SoCal. But anyway. So, uh, but as peaches go, right? So there are people who are adherent. So John sent us some of these donut style white peaches and then some regular yellow, you know, I don't know the
+
+[9:43] variety actually. Did he incense a variety, right? don't know. anyway. No, there are lots of varieties. He sent me the breakdown. Oh, but I didn't receive it. So I was just eating blind. Awesome, great. I love that. Anyway, so like the white donut, white peaches in general are so floral, but they lack the acid backbone.
+
+[9:59] Does anyone know of a peach variety that has that floral
+
+[10:03] characteristic that has the acid backbone to kind of back it up so that it has that kind of awesome peach
+
+[10:09] flavor. I've never had what you... I don't like white peaches very much. Because it's too floral? Yeah. Do you also not like, you know, remember how there's like some dessert varieties of apple that are extremely floral and that
+
+[10:21] we, we were having in our, in our tastings. I can't remember which one comes to mind, but, you know, some of the parmains, stuff like this. You didn't like those either, right? Yeah, because you like more of an acid acid kind of, yeah. Yeah, Nastachio likes, you know, likes her mouth to be smacked around a little bit by acid by acid. I don't want to hear anything, people. Okay. Gloria Goodwin. Uh, Rahija on tequila. Hello. In December of 2011, I made several bottles of this fabulous tequila sauce, and it's from a Savora recipe for tequila hot sauce that was posted in 2011. I gave away several bottles as gifts and kept one for myself. I used about half of mine, mainly on fish, and it's wonderful. I believe it's from Hill Country, the recipe. I think, I got to go look it up. Anyway, and it's wonderful. I then forgot about it and it got pushed to the back of a cupboard. Do you think that it's still okay to use after all this time, or would there be any risks? The Chili's have lost all of their color now, and the Patron silver is quite dark, but I would think that the alcohol would prevent bacterial growth.
+
+[11:17] I just wanted to make sure before I use it. Thanks, Gloria Goodman, Rahedra, professor of anthropology, which is an awesome job. Anthropology, cool subject. At the University of Minnesota. Okay, you were in good shape here. This is totally safe. Now, the question is, um, what's going to happen to the uh, taste of it after all this time? And I don't know, right? Because the taste is not going to be 100% stable, but, you know, everything's pretty much at this point what we call reached equilibrium. So it's not that the, uh, it's not that, um, you know, it's, it's probably all, all the same, right? So some of the color was leap, they didn't leap out all of their color. They leached out probably to the degree. They're probably equal in color with the Patron bottle. know what I'm trying to say, stars, right? I don't know, fumbling over, but you know what I'm trying to say. The really only safety risks you have with this sort of thing aren't with liquor, like tequila, are with oils, right? So if you were packing on oil thing like this, then it would be, you know, fairly unsafe. I mean, if you were going to do a pepper in an oil situation, you'd have to guarantee the microbial safety of the pepper before you put it into the oil,
+
+[12:15] right? either by increasing the salt content or increasing the acid content or fermentation or whatever, in that
+
+[12:21] situation, you have to be worried about safety. And if you did do something like that for the oil, then the problem would be that you were, um, you'd be adding things that would cause the oil to break down faster. salt, sass, things like this. Which is why for oils, you usually want to add dry items or you just don't store them that
+
+[12:39] long or you remove the high liquid items. Here, the high liquid item is very quickly being, the liquid is being very quickly replaced by tequila. And even if you were to add a preposterous amount of chili to the tequila, you're never going to reduce the alcohol content lower than, I mean, even if you used over half pepper, right, to tequila, you're still only going to probably drop the proof down to, you know, a little above 20,
+
+[13:04] 20% rather. And at 20% you're still golden. you know, so there's no safety. There's no safety issues at all. Like whether or not it still tastes exactly the way you want, different question, but use it
+
+[13:14] away. And, um, you should make a note of how things taste. And this is actually something that we do all the time when we make liquors, and it's a good practice. Whenever you're making liquors or infusions is to not use the last little bit and save it for a long, long time and kind of see how the flavor drifts over
+
+[13:30] time because it can be very interesting instructive. Yes? Yes. Yes. Although, did I ever tell a story about the radish liquor? So, um, you know, I do lots of liquor infusions is one thing I do. And I don't know, like five, 6 years ago, I made a, I forget whether it was Western Radish or daikon. It was daicon, but it was like pinkish. It was pinkish, so it must have been regular. Anyway, I made a radish infusion into, I think it was
+
+[13:55] gin and it tasted fantastic, right? Smelled like farts, like straight up farts. So I was like, okay, I'm going to stick this bottle on the shelf and I'm going to taste it, you know, once a month for the next
+
+[14:10] couple. And I tasted it. I didn't taste it every month after the 1st couple of months. I let it go, but over the course of like 3 or 4 years, I've waited for the fart to go away. Fart never went away. We didn't take that with us when we moved out of the... no. Because it turns out fart in a radish liquor. Pointment. Pointment. Okay. So I got 2 questions on fermentation today. I going to hit them both kind of at the same time. You know, we should get Dan Felder from the Momafuku lab, because he's like a fermentation nut. The guy spends all of his time thinking about fermentation, right? Maybe if people want it, you tweet us in, maybe we'll try to get him to come in here and we'll have like a specific fermentation related. I think he charges now, though. What the hell kind of thing is that to say charges? Charges for what? Charges for his, like, time. Dave, do you know about this show on heritage? That's called Famen about it. It's a nice fermentation show and probably my favorite pun of all time. Yeah, has Dan Felder been on that one? No, but I will recommend. Yeah, all right, I could have him here. I know, Dan. And I believe that my help over the years with centrifusion things will probably get me a freebie of him coming on the cooking issues radio program styles.
+
+[15:22] See, this is a little insight into, see, that thing where she says, I think he charges. That's just her being mean. That's that's just the Stasia trying to be a vicious person. It's a little insight for you people into what I live with every day. Okay. Timothy writes in about tomatoes. Thanks for explaining what was going on in that Kowloon walled city spring roll wrapper video. We talked about this. I know, a couple months ago, probably, this amazing city that had no rules. It was like all built up like in this weird kind of really crazy style, like really, you know,
+
+[15:55] it's like a steampunk dream nightmare, kind of. Anyway, no rules. I like, do you like that? Would you like a no rule place? No. No? No? Okay. I found the recipe for those on Joe Pastry in his
+
+[16:07] article, Chinese Spring Rollskin recipe from 2012, and I'm going to give it a shot sometime soon. A more pressing matter. I just started my 2nd batch of, hey, pronounce this Italian head. I'll have to pronounce it. And then she's just going to laugh at me because my computer went crazy. Conserve a crudo di pamidoro. Yeah? Yeah. See, I learned this when I was in Austria. I took German in college, right? And when I went to Austria, they were like, hey, your accent, my German is horrible. They're like, your accent is so good. It's because Arnold Schwarzenegger comes from, comes from Austria. And so whenever I speak German, I just think about watching Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. So instead of like, you know, so instead of saying like Ausketseichnit, like an American, I'm like, Ausketseichnit, like this. And they're like, ah, your pronunciation is perfect. And then I was like, this is hilarious. It's like, I've never been to Austria before. I was like, this is great. So when I do Italian, I just think about Cesare. Just think about Cesare, and then I'm Cesare, our good friend, good friend of ours, Cesare Casella. Uh, amazing, amazing cook, nice host too, right? good peoples. Okay. I may have made 2nd batch of this stuff, which I won't repronounce following the instruction in Sandor
+
+[17:17] Kats's that he printed in the art of fermentation, which I reread, almost covered a cover last night. Good book. You read that yet? Do you like fermentation? No, no, I was kidding. You don't like the, you like the products, but you don't like the idea. Yeah? Okay. I follow the recipe to the letter. last year, adding 20% salt by weight, which was unsurprisingly extremely salty. What role does the salt prey and preservation? Now, remember, 20%. It's not a typo. I looked up the, I looked up the technique in the book. And so this is like not a typo that Timothy is sending us. This is actually what they had, 20%. The recipe says the finished paste was originally kept indefinitely at room temperature, a level of preservation. don't need. The fridge seems like an obvious place for it. I found a post from the Nordic food lab where they used 8% salt for the similar recipe, the same recipe. In fact, they also got the recipe from the art of fermentation, where they used 8% salt, but I'm curious if I can go even lower. The limit for how much salt I could use of the original batch was how salty I wanted my dish to be, and I'd love to get away from that. i.e. to use more of it. Keep up the great work, Timothy. Okay, yeah. That is a fantastically high salt rate. And the way that this product is made. It's kind of strange, is you pulp tomatoes, and you throw them in a bucket. And then you let them with nothing, nothing. And you let them ferment and bubble and let white mold grow on the top. Stas, I saw a picture of it with the white mold bubble bubbling on top. She's making her kind of, it's like similar to a vegan face. And you, uh, and you scoop the mold up off the top when you're done after it's fermenting, uh, and you pass
+
+[18:50] the, the liquid solids, uh, through, uh, like a, you know, the equivalent of, you want to get the solids out, right?
+
+[18:57] The liquid, he doesn't, I don't really mention how to use, but the Nordic food lab people, they like it, right? So then you have the liquid, which apparently is very fruity and awesome smelling, according to the Nordic food labs, you know, description of it.
+
+[19:09] And then you have this solid paste. You then need salt into that paste until it becomes like a dough. And then that dough is like sticks around indefinitely, right? So that's the basic thing. But 20% salt, you are basically turning it into a tomato paste salt situation.
+
+[19:25] You are using it as salt. And yes, it will keep probably forever at that salt level. But you're right that you're only going to be able to use a small amount of it. So you're never going to be able to blast a tomato flavor out because you're adding such a small amount. Um, what, you know, now the Nordic food labs, 8% salt is going to be fine. I'm sure you could do 4% salt even and be okay because remember the water activity and that's already fairly low. You've gotten rid of most of the liquid. So you're dealing with almost, uh, it's already been, um, not dehydrated, but forcibly had water
+
+[19:59] removed from it. So it has lower water content. You're needing salt into it more, and you're packing it down. So I would bet you could get away with four, uh, or, you know, possibly even a little bit less, but the, remember, the thing is by adding salt, any further, like
+
+[20:12] the, the level of salt that you add is going to change the, uh,
+
+[20:16] what, what bacteria and what other floor are going to grow on it, right? So the different salt levels shift, the speed at which fermentation takes place. Any further fermentation past the salt list in the giant bucket fermentation and also shift the balance of what's going to be growing on it.
+
+[20:32] In a related question, Marty and Eagle Rock about pickled peppers, pickled peppers. Peter and Piper. Yeah, so, you know, anyway. You know, my son, that's not a hard tongue twister to say. Say it for me. Peter Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers. Yeah. How many how many how many pickled peppers did Peter Pepper pick? I don't know. A peck. You just told me a peck. You picked a peck. A peck is a half bushel, people. It's a volumetric measurement. Get with your like fruit measurements here. A peck is a half bushel. Okay. Dear Dave, Nastachi, Jack, and Joe. Although Jack doesn't care enough about you, Marty, from Eagle Rock to show up and listen to your question. I'm just messing around. I'm making a lacto fermented pepper sauce using Thai bird chilies, and recipes on the web suggest everything from 2.5% to 10% salt by weight.
+
+[21:21] I went with 4% as that's the concentration I use for pickle brine, so to 3 kilograms of chili. I added 120 grams of salt as well as a liter of 4% brine. But I got to thinking that because the chilies don't have much water weight in them, that this match is mash is way more salty than my pickle brine, so I'm afraid I might have screwed myself. I love that when people say stuff like that. I say that all the time. because it's true most of the time. I have screwed myself. So my questions are, what is the optimal salinity for lacto fermentation? How can you best measure, given it, the various vegetables have their differing water contents, and how long would you age this stuff? The McElhenny company ages their stuff for 3 years? But I know the fermentation will be over in a couple of weeks. Well, that's Marty and Eagle Rock. Well, remember, there's done and then there's done, right? So things that are fundamentally done in a short amount of time, still have aging effects that take place over longer periods of time. And the McEllhenneys parent, I've never been to Avery Island, where they make Tabasco. But apparently the whole place reeks of freaking Tabasco. ever been down there? No. My wife went. Uh, and because, you know, she grew up uh, part of her life in Louisiana, she go there. But like, it's so weird. Like, the McElhenny is like, it's weird. I'll go someday. Anyway, um, so it's, there is no such thing as the one optimum, uh, salinity, right? Different products have different optimal salinas. I did look up this, though. Unless the Thai bird chilies have fundamentally a lot less water than something like a bell pepper, I looked on cowpeppers.com, and cowpeppers.com, which is kind of a good website, cowpepper, cowpepper.com, uh cowpepper.com, and
+
+[22:55] another, uh, uh, article I love, say that the solids content of pepper is pretty low. So for 32 tons of uh, 32.7 tons of jalapeno only contain 2.6 tons of dry matter, which means that the balance, it's well over 90%
+
+[23:15] uh, water. Now, now you could be having a lot of stems because they're Thai bird chilies. It depends whether you stemmed them or not. The stems are obviously going to have lower water content, but you're probably dealing with something
+
+[23:27] that has a fairly high water content. So I wouldn't worry about it from that point. However, um, you know, you, a lot of people will use a 4 or 5% brine, without adding the extra salt to make up for it, and then what they're actually shooting for is like a 2.5%
+
+[23:42] brine once everything's done. So it's, you know, it's very confusing. Most recipes just give a brine strength and they don't do the calculations to figure out what the actual finished salinity is going to be after everything is, you know, done out. Now, I do know that people pickling bell peppers prefer a higher, if they're whole, if they're not going to be chopped up. I think they prefer a higher initial salt, um, uh, level to kill or to prevent um, endogenous. In other words, like occurring on the pepper already, strains that they don't want from proliferating before the fermentation really
+
+[24:17] starts. But you can get rid of that by just a quick blanch, right? And then going with a lower salt situation. But the Thai chilies aren't that big anyway. So I'm thinking you would probably wouldn't need, um, super high salt concentration. With the exception, if you don't break the skins at all, it's going to be hard for it to penetrate the skins because the skin's on those things, it can be kind of a pain in the butt, sometimes a yes or no.
+
+[24:36] So, uh, my, I guess the long and short of it is, yeah, you, you didn't necessarily screw yourself, it's not absurdly high because those are so freaking hot that how much can you really eat anyway? You know, in order to, like, you're not going to be adding that much salt because how many Thai bird chilies can you sit there and just pound? I mean, I used to train myself to eat habaneros just to be a jerk until my wife could no longer kiss me when she came home from work because my lips would burn her mouth,
+
+[25:00] right? So it's not like I'm saying that I can't take hot foods, although I haven't been trained
+
+[25:04] in, it's been several decades since I really trained myself hardcore. Well, almost 2 decades. Um, but, uh, point being is, is that even in my prime, it's like you can eat, uh, you can eat Thai bird, you know, the, the type,
+
+[25:17] but, you know, you're not going to eat so much that you're going to be like, man, that's salty. I can't have any more. I can't stand it because of the salt. You know what I mean? As opposed to the capsicum. But anyway, I did also look up some other stuff and more to your question, what is the optimum range? And all the papers I looked at said there is no optimum range. It depends on what you want. So I looked up an article you can get on the internet from Geneva, from Geneva's agricultural extension, which I love. I love, they've done so many awesome things. Like, someday, maybe we'll do, well, I
+
+[25:46] won't because we won't do it, but like a whole show on the history of the Gene of Agricultural extension and what they've done for agriculture in the great state of New York, but a guy named Carl S. Peterson in 1959 wrote an article aptly
+
+[25:58] titled Sauerkraut. And in sauerkraut, you know, they they wanted to get very, very small, uh, like low, low salt concentration. So they were, they were dealing with between, uh, one. 5 or, you know, it's not really supposed to have one. 5 . Like the FDA in 1916 when they came out. They wanted sauerkraut to be between 2% and 3% NACL, right? That was their rule between 2 and three. Although, um, they studied in here ones that were lower and ones that were higher. The problem with low salt. If you go too low, there's a couple things that are wrong with too low. When you go too low, things tend to grow that can make vegetables mushy. And so if you look at it, um, you want a certain level of salt that makes things mushy, uh, that to prevent things from getting mushy, and you can also add things like calcium or, you know, divalient, uh,
+
+[26:51] divalient, uh, catayas to help that as well, or use salt that is high in calcium
+
+[26:56] magnesium, impurities. But you want to add a certain level of salt so that, you know, they don't go mushy on things like
+
+[27:03] sauerkraut, but not so much salt that it's too salty to eat. Another article, um, called kinetic growth parameters are different, uh,
+
+[27:12] amylolytic and non-amylolytic, lactobacillist strains under various salt and pH conditions by MS Rao, said that uh, 4%'s a good number, all around
+
+[27:21] number. But that's but sauerkraut, that would be way too high. a 4% sauerkraut. People be like, that's not sauerkraut. What are you, crazy? What are you, nuts? Interesting fact. When you're mixing sourkraut in the old days, there was a phenomenon where they would take the kraut, salt it, and throw it into giant vats. And when they threw it into giant vats, somehow the actual compression of the cabbage hitting inside of the vat as it's packing in, would cause there to be a low salt concentration in the middle and a high salt concentration on the outside.
+
+[27:50] So in the low salt concentrations where there wasn't enough salt. Uh, you would get mushy sauerkraut. And when the salt concentration was too high, The growth of the lactobacillus strains that they have in sauerkraut, which I forget what they are. Some kind of stock thing, I think. They don't grow fast enough to outcompete or to cause
+
+[28:13] this yeast, this yeast that makes pink sauerkraut, right? The yeast from growing. It doesn't spoil it, but you'll get this situation in these giant vats, like several tons of sauerkraut, where the center of it's going to be
+
+[28:23] mushy, and the outside's going to be pink, but the overall salt level was, right? You red pink kraut? No. By mistake. I mean, I mean, people make red crowd on purpose. Anyway. So what do you think? Answer the question? Yes. Okay. And, you know, go read, you know, Sandor Katz's book. I love it. He's like, he's very much in the realm of, eh, don't worry about it. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of worked. Just taste it and see how it's going, it's going to work. The odds are, you know, if as long as you are better than, you know,
+
+[28:51] uh, 2% salt, uh, you know, you're gonna be, it's gonna be gravy. It's just a question of then what, organaleptically, what's going to happen and increase in the salt, slows your fermentation and shifts the different species that are going to be growing on it. Okay. Paul Yee writes in. I hope this is the correct email. It is. I have a lot of leftover food grade lie, sodium hydroxide beads from making pretzels. And I was wondering if I could use these beets somehow to make ramen noodles. I've previously made alkali noodles using the recipe from lucky peach and was thinking that I could substitute the baked soda, i.e. sodium carbonate, baked sodium
+
+[29:25] bicarbonate with sodium hydroxide beads. I would normally just test it for myself, but a lot of sources I have read online say that it is dangerous to consume sodium hydroxide. So I wanted to get a professional opinion. Thanks, love the show, Paul Yee. Well, I have a checkered path with the lie. Here's what I'm going to say, I'm assuming you've already done this. Label the hell out of that container. label the top of the container, label the side of the container, and draw skull and crossbones all over the container. Um, you know, I don't know whether I haven't told this in a long time, but there was a situation once where I was moving stuff out of
+
+[30:00] the lab at the French culinary when we were moving from the FCI to our new place and someone said, hey, what's this? and showed me a
+
+[30:08] cork container, right? And I was like, I don't know. And I dipped my finger in it to taste it, put it on my tongue, which I'll never do again, and it was
+
+[30:16] lie because it was the one container stuff we keep around in the kitchen that is horrifically dangerous, and it melted a huge hole in my
+
+[30:22] tongue, eventually grew back. Um, so be careful with it, but used. I mean, you ate it when it's in pretzels and small amounts of lye are, in fact, fine to use. You just have to get the pH right. I didn't have time to look up the numbers to substitute, uh, the,
+
+[30:37] um, you know, how much, how many grams of, uh, of, uh, lie to add to get the same pH as you did with uh, sodium
+
+[30:44] carbonate. I will say this. Um, they both have the same cat iron, sodium, so you're not dealing with switching a cat iron out. So it's not, it's probably, the, what I'm saying here is probably going to work, right? Um, that, you know, most of the effects, uh, I think in, um, most of the effects in noodles from using can sway and other basic things are, I believe, strictly ph dependent. It's not, and plus, I got to remember, look up exactly what's in Conseway, which bases are used, but if you're using, um, a sodium-based thing for a cat in anyway, you're not going to have any
+
+[31:20] divalent, uh, cadion, for instance, calcium effects, like you would. Like, it's important, it's not important, but there are different effects when you use calcium based bases like calcium hydroxide, you know, you know,
+
+[31:34] lock pickling lime, when you're doing things like nixtimilization, because the calcium has some effect on certain structures, depending on what you're doing.
+
+[31:42] But, um, But in this case, I think you're going to be fine. It's just a question of making sure that you don't make it way too alkaline. I've, you know, you consume sodium hydro. I mean, you put it in pretzels, it's going to be fine. Just don't use too much and look up how to substitute to get the proper pH. If I'd had time, I would have looked it up for you, but I didn't get a chance. You want to take a break? Sure. And we're going to go to our 1st commercial break. We be right back with cooking juice.
+
+[32:10] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[32:32] fete accompli for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com.
+
+[32:55] And, welcome back to Cooking Issue Joe. you got any radiocentric things to talk about? Any drives, any anything? Are we out of the fundraising season? What's going on here? I think fundraising season is over, but just be on the lookout for some new pieces that we're going to be putting out, putting out like 3 to 5 minute segments, best
+
+[33:16] ofs coming up soon. So, you know, check out the homepage, HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Now, you want to tell our listeners who, uh, that about the whole new, the whole new homepage, as Jack described this already? I don't know if Jack has described it. But it will be unveiled shortly, and you're going to see this whole new format with different radio spots about, you know, health, pleasure. So it's going to be a little bit more newsy, but still with all the programs that you love. Sweet. All right. Nick writes in, hey, Dave, Nastashi, Jack, and Joe. Nick from Soul Korea, again. When Dave touched on tofu in the past, he's talked about how there's good, flavorful tofu, and then there's the bland, watery kind you come across in supermarkets. It's mainly, I think, because they keep, they, A, they probably don't do a good job making it, and B, they just soak the hell out of it in water. I mean, that's the, for me, the main trick is, is that, uh, when I'm making, well, let me finish the question. I don't believe Dave mentioned how to go about making the good tofu. So how do you make good tofu and what are the primary differences? What are some helpful references, being on the web or in print that you can recommend? And also, do you know of any places one would go for some good tofu experience? Um, Well, I don't, I mean, if you're in Korea, I'm sure you can get some amazing tofu. I really love kind of like, you know, Korean kind of cloud tofu soup. So there's a place here in New York that does it that I like,
+
+[34:38] but, you know, you know, you're in kind of the motherland of that, of that kind of a situation. And that's really the only tofu restaurant I go to here in New York.
+
+[34:47] Do you go to, do you ever go to a tofu restaurant? Um, I see, I'm trying to remember. I had good home tofu, homemade tofu in restaurants, but I'm trying to remember, remember where. I mean, to me, the main the main thing is when you make it yourself, A, you get to choose what texture you want. But B, I never, ever put it in water, right? So after it, you know, after you do the Kurds, and you ladle them and you do whatever level of pressing or not pressing depending on how soft you want
+
+[35:12] it. Uh, that's it for me, right? So it still has some of the weight in there, which I like. Uh, and it hasn't like all the, the, you know, the flavors of soy, which I actually happen to like, haven't been leached out by having it in big buckets of water for a long time.
+
+[35:27] Um, I, you know, so to me, like that's the main, that's the main difference. So, you know, the reference that I always give, it's kind of outdated.
+
+[35:37] There's a book I want to get that I don't have, uh, called Asian tofu, discover the best, uh, make your own and cook it at home, uh, by Andrea Nwynn. I don't have this book. It gets good ratings on Amazon, and it's definitely one of the books on my list of things to get. But, you know, when I 1st started making tofu, I don't know, like, you know, 17 years ago or something like
+
+[35:58] this. Uh, was that far? Maybe 17 years of it? Maybe not. Maybe 15, 15 years maybe. Uh, and the book that I used was um, kind of the only book at the time in English called The Book of Tofu, by uh, William uh,
+
+[36:14] Shirtlift and Akiko, uh, Ayagi, I think is how you pronounce her name.
+
+[36:18] And then, but here's, like, now, this might be have been superseded, but at the time, and I've talked about, you know, these guys before, uh, you know, their goal, and they have, I think what's called the Lasoy Institute or something like this in California, and they're still going strong, even though I think they wrote the book in like
+
+[36:34] 1980 something. is uh, their goal is uh, to save the world through better protein consumption. And, you know, soy, they wrote a book, you know, famous book on soy, a famous book on
+
+[36:46] miso, and I believe they have a couple other famous ones. Now here's the thing. You need to go buy their book because it's not that expensive and you need to own it. But there's a bunch of different versions of it on the web to buy. I'm not sure if it's still in print or not. You want to make sure you don't get the mass market paperbacks because the mass market paperback is the recipes are hacked up in a weird way that makes it impossible. You want to get the larger format paperback is good, and the hardcover, including the hardcover one where they bound the
+
+[37:18] book of Miso and the book of Tofu together, is fine. The smaller mass market one, at least the edition that I own, and I've owned like 4 copies of this book. I gave one to Nastasia. You ever use that book? The tofu book. I gave it to you. Remember? I hand it to you? Anyway, it got lost. It's gone. Somebody else named Nastasia. Okay. You didn't, I swear. There would be no reason to give it to me. You did not. Well who else would have asked for it? Mindy? don't know. Uh, and then, uh, you know, I own a couple, whatever. sure you get the right one. Um, you know, the other thing is, is that, you know, I don't really follow his, his, tofu works like this. You make you get your soybeans, you soak them, you got to soak them for the right amount of time. Then you blend them with different amounts of hot water. You change the temperature, depending on how you want to do it. You blend the hell out of it, right? And then that's determining how thick your soy milk is. Change the thickness. Soy milk, you know, depending on what you want. I don't remember my specific specs, but I use fundamentally the exact water specs that are in the tofu
+
+[38:17] book in shirtless tofu book. Then you boil it for a certain amount of time. Now, remember, this is the messy part because it will boil over and cause problems because you have to inactivate certain anti-nutrients in the soy. You then take it and you stir in a coagulant. Right now, traditional Japanese coagulant would be Nigari, which is the salts left over from a bittern is another word for it. salts left over from the production of sea salt. So sea salt primarily sodium chloride. And then the bittern, the Nigari left over, primarily magnesium,
+
+[38:51] calamos, other salts. And those are the ones that you use for tofu. Now, I, you know, at the time didn't have an a supply of this crap. So I just went to the Dwayne Reed, which is our local pharmacy here, although Stas, you hate Dwayne Reed, you hate CBS. I love CBS. You hate Rite Aid. I hate all the rest. I love CBS. Okay. You go and you buy Epsom salts, right? And Epsom salt says, what is that? That might be magnesium chloride. I got to look it up. But you don't want to use too much epsom salsa or it'll make the tofu run through you, if you know what I mean. Boop, boop, boop, because it's laxative, you know what I'm saying? But, uh, I small amount of Epsom salt is stirred in, um,
+
+[39:28] the, the cat ions in the Epsom salt, uh, cause the tofu to coagulate
+
+[39:33] break. You carefully move it around to get the, to get the curds to coagulate without beating it up too much, and then you ladle the curds out extremely gently into a container and you either press it down with weights if you want it firm or not. Let it, uh, and that's that's it. So, uh, you know, you can use gypsum, which is, I believe, calcium sulfate, but I got to look it
+
+[39:51] up because I can look it up beforehand. Uh, you, you can use a gypsum, which is Chinese, uh, kind of traditional. You can use Nigari, which is kind of Japanese traditional. He claims you can use sea water, although I've never had luck doing it. And I know you can use Epsom salts because that's the one I use most often, but very simple to do and definitely
+
+[40:09] worthwhile. Um, just don't soak the hell out of it in water, which is how you ruin that stuff. Um, what do you think? Good. Um, I
+
+[40:20] want some of that tofu soup now. Stuff is so good. It's like never been pressed. It's just like the clouds of tofu. cracked it. ladled out and put in a soup. I don't know what it's called in Korean now. I'll figure it out. I'll ask I'll ask someone. Who knows? Okay, uh, Matt writes in. Hey guys, I need to make a no sugar added sorbet. For instance, I'd like to make a sour lemon sorbet. How would I go about that? Some online research turned up some vague ideas like using gelatin, alcohol,
+
+[40:49] guar gum, and some other things to stop it from freezing salad, but I hadn't found anything concrete, any ideas. Okay. Yeah. So all of those things, yeah, none of those things are going to do exactly what you want sugar to do. So the question, Matt, is, do you want to have no sugar for a flavor point or is it because there is a dietary restriction involved? See, alcohol is going to lower the freezing point of
+
+[41:18] your of your product straight up. It will. But if you've ever tried to freeze high alcohol stuff. It doesn't, um, it doesn't modify the texture in the same way that uh, sugar does. So the product, like, is gonna, it's not gonna have the same texture as if it was done with sugar. Now, if you used alcohol and then maybe added some, something like a stabilizer and make a gummy, like a gelatin or a guire, then maybe you can get it approximating what a, you know, a real, real sorbet is going to be, but it's never going to be quite the sink of sugar, you know,
+
+[41:51] um, has very good texturizing properties. Now, what you can do, if you want it to be very,
+
+[41:59] like, fairly unsweet, is to use a much lower uh, sweetening power sugar. Okay? Now, I haven't actually had I haven't used that much. Paul Lebrandt, I don't know if you still use it, used to use a product called light test. I don't even know if it's still available, but it's a sugar that has absolute, it's a sugar substitute. I forget how they make it. has absolutely no sweetness. It's dead unsweet. But you can get glucose syrups that are fairly low in sweetness. Um, very, very low sweetness that have a high solids content and have good water binding capacity, which is what you want here. You want to jack the solids. You want to bind some of the water and you want to decrease the freezing point of the liquid. So if you, if you were to use like some alcohol, maybe, maybe add some
+
+[42:46] Jellon, but then use, uh, you know, like a very, uh, low, uh, DE, uh, that's dexterous equivalent, like uh, like 42 or lower glucose syrup, which has fairly low
+
+[42:57] D. That's not sweet. You can get a very unsweet thing. It's no one would recognize it as being sweet, like a sweet, um, dessert thing, but you can, um, you know, you can
+
+[43:12] not not have the problems of having a bad texture. So, you know, Nils used to do at Akavit, a goat cheese, uh, ice cream that was, I believe he used like a 42 DE or glucose
+
+[43:25] syrup and in conjunction with a locust bean gum. And then like those 2 things together could get the texture that you want, even though the sugar level is somewhat reduced, and that thing was not sweet at all. It tasted like, uh, like goat cheese. You know what I'm saying? So I think you want to go something like that, but you're going to need to jack the salad, especially on a sorbet where you don't have like milk proteins and things like that to round it up.
+
+[43:49] What do you think, good answer? She's like, yeah, whatever, whatever. Don't care. Hey, were there any questions I missed from last time? got them all? Yeah, it was only six. Really? All right. Remember you commented? I was like, because it's Labor Day. Yeah, yeah. All right. Christian from Michigan writes in. I have a couple questions for you this week. I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me. You use low temperature cooking and sous vide as very different descriptions of cooking methods, and I'm curious as to how you make the distinction. Is it strictly the under vacuum constitutes sous vide while everything else is low temp? Yes. I mean, look, so very simply, sous vide means in a vacuum. So sous vide techniques include cooking techniques. They include preservation techniques. They include, um, you know, infusion techniques, texture modification techniques, anything that involves a vacuum,
+
+[44:42] uh, sous vide. Well, we not 100%. We really mean in vacuum bags or using the vacuum machines. like vacuum distillation. They don't really consider a sous vide technique, but it means under a vacuum. Low temperature, right? Is anytime you're controlling the temperature that you're cooking with. Um, you know, so accurately that you're that the cooking medium, whether it be oil or water or moist
+
+[45:04] air, is very close to the temperature you want to cook too. So low temperature requires very accurate temperature control and an environment like oil, water,
+
+[45:15] or, you know, 100% humidity, uh, air that can accurately transmit, um, a temperature, right? So dry air doesn't work because you can't control the temperature of the products you're cooking because with dry
+
+[45:27] air you get evaporative cooling, right? You can't control it, so you can't do low temperature cooking that way. Low temperature cooking is about temperature control. Whereas in vacuum, you know, in sous vide cooking, you could use wildly unregulated heat source,
+
+[45:39] right? You could use boiling water, which is actually is regulated, but it's very high, or any temperature in between. You don't need to cook it to the temperature you want to cook your product too. So they're very, very different. Now, vacuum bagging, sous vide, is very useful technique for doing low temperature cooking, but many things that you cook low
+
+[45:56] temperature, you don't cook in a vacuum bag. Eggs, for instance, are not cooked in a vacuum bag. You can do old style confit in a combi oven, low
+
+[46:06] temp, and not, although I prefer comfy traditional temperatures without a vacuum bag. And the reason to separate the 2 is not just because they are different
+
+[46:16] is, because there are, especially in professional, um, professional arenas, there are, um, uh, rules that pertain to using modified atmosphere
+
+[46:27] packaging, because when you when you move oxygen, you uh, increase the risk for growing um, uh, anaerobics, uh, spore forming bacteria like botulism, and that, and prevent uh, spoilage bacteria from letting you know things have gone south.
+
+[46:41] So in a professional environment, there's all kinds of rules when you're using modified atmosphere packaging and
+
+[46:46] SUV'd that don't attain when you're using low temperature cooking. So I like to maintain a bright line just because, you know, in the years that I was training chefs to use this thing, it was very important that they make that distinction because it could be a big problem when
+
+[47:00] a health inspector comes in and they don't know how to accurately talk about the difference between modified atmosphere, which has the
+
+[47:06] extra theoretically the extra risks of having no oxygen versus low temperature, which doesn't necessarily have those risks.
+
+[47:14] So, you know, that's very important. And the other thing is, is that they're just freaking different. Like, you should think of the, you know, you should think of the vacuum process as being the vacuum process and all the things that attain to the vacuum process and you should think of the cooking process as the cooking process and all the things that attain from cooking.
+
+[47:31] They're just not the same, you know? Um... 2nd question. When we were talk about creating fat powders, we generally talk about liquid oils or at least rendered fats.
+
+[47:42] Aside from using avocado oil. Is there enough fat or a method of manipulation in an avocado to turn it into the powder from the fruit itself? Avocado oil lacks a lot of the richness and fruit flavor that I'm looking to achieve. Yes, it does. Thanks for giving me my nerd fix on my long commute to and from work. I often taking notes illegally on my phone while driving. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. Well, the real gems of information pop up, long live nerds, Christian from Michigan. P.S. I can relate to your travel stories with regards to knives and electronics. I've given a few workshops on Arduino in Canada, and always end up at customs fighting deportation as I explain away microcontroller boards, wires, and exacto knives while covered in tattoos and looking scruffy, fun times. Yeah, I've had some airport situations. Okay, avocados. When you're making powders from fats. You can use solid fats, solid fats, or liquid fats, right? You're using what's called tapioca, uh, a specific type of tapioca
+
+[48:35] malto decks when called Ensorbit, uh, Ensorbit, uh, with M or, and, my brain just fried. But, and Sorbit is made by the National Starch Corporation, and specifically, it is a bulking agent. very, very low bulk density, right? Now, all starches. I think, if I think about this, but starches have a helix form, and the outside of the starch is
+
+[48:55] hydrophilic, and the inside of the starch helix is lipophilic, likes fats, which means that fats can insert themselves on the inside of this helix, right?
+
+[49:07] So what happens is you take this thing that has an extremely low bulk density, the fat gets stored on the inside of the of these
+
+[49:15] helices for the ends orbit. And because there's no water in the system, it maintains some of its higher bulk
+
+[49:22] density, and you can make powders out of fats. That's how Ensorbit works. As soon as you add water to endsorbit. So if I hand you a pound of En's orbit, right? It's like a giant cube because it weighs almost nothing. So when you, um, and and even when you add oil, you reduce it, it's, uh, you increase its bulk density dramatically. You know, decreases in size dramatically, they absorb it. The minute you add any liquid to endsorbit at all, it starts like watering out, right? I mean, you see, it's like the whole point of it is that when you make these oil powders, you put it in your mouth, the
+
+[49:56] ansorbit goes away and you're left with the oil, right? So the question is how much water is there in avocado? And I think there's a substantial amount of water
+
+[50:06] in an avocado, substantial amount of oil, but also substantial amount of water. And so my feeling is that the water content of the avocado is going to be too high
+
+[50:15] to, uh, is going to be too high to make a powder with ansorbit unless you use a boat ton of it. Um, But your results may may vary. You got to find out. We'll find out, you know, someone will write and be like, I make avocado powder
+
+[50:32] within a little bit all the time. What are you talking about? Uh, but it, I would be, I would be careful. I would think that there's much too much water in an avocado get to happen. Speaking of modernist techniques, I forgot back on tofu. Back when I was experimenting with tofu, it was prior to this explosion, it took place like 4 or 5 years ago where people started making tofu out of everything.
+
+[50:52] I tested years ago trying to make peanut tofu, which was okay,
+
+[50:56] uh, kind of soft, uh, different kind different kinds of tofu, but I believe in modernist cuisine. There's a bunch of interesting different kinds of tofu like other legume curds. So go look at that for tofu information, for non-standard tofu information. Um, what do you think? They answer the fat powder thing? All right. Ooh, let's see. Okay, I got checking people, make sure I'm not going to miss any of your questions because I think I can actually get them all today. Yes. All right, we got one last question coming in from... James on from
+
+[51:33] Bitterroot, Montana, on Sturgeon. And I'm liking this one. Ready for this? Sturgeon, by the way. Stars, you're the half of you that is Russell, Ukrainian, enjoys sturgeon. Yeah. And like Stas, we have a personal story about this one that actually not really because we never did anything with it. Anyway, Dave and Crew, big fan of the show. We got a sturgeon in yesterday. When I was butchering it, I was looking at the spine and noticed how soft the tissue was inside. I cut off 2 chunks, split one open lengthwise and left the other one whole. Salt, oil, and in a 450 degree oven. they went for 10 minutes. When they came out, the one that had been split resembled a lobster tail bursting with soft white bait. like that one. You like that? Sound? Bursting with soft white meat. The texture was soft as a pillow and absolutely delicious. I'm writing to ask if there are any health risks involved that you can think of for clients.
+
+[52:22] I feel fine, but was thinking of anything long term. You can never really consume all that much of it. The yield was poor. Also, any ideas for other applications or experiments you could think of that would be fun to try with this ingredient. James Rowdy from Bitter Root, Montana. This is a great question. First of all, I had no idea. Okay, so Sturgeon, uh, paddlefish and a group of other uh, fish that are out there are kind of like living dinosaurs. There's an old, old style fish. And in fact, they're, uh, you know, one of the few, few things, if you out there that don't have a normal spinal cord, like most fish have, they have what's called a noto cord, right?
+
+[53:02] Because they're super primitive. Some people who fish for certain of these things and I think I'll also like cola cancer stuff. I don't know if you can fish for those, call them dino fish. So I had no inclination that there might be a possible problem with spinal cord. And in fact, not only that in in Russia,
+
+[53:22] there's a welt where, you know, they get the sturgeon from the Caspian to make caviar.
+
+[53:28] There's a well-known delicacy, uh, called uh, Vesiga that is the dried, um, spinal cord of sturgeon, right?
+
+[53:38] Or spot, it's not a spinal cord. Excuse me, noto chord, right? They dried notochord of the sturgeon. So I read about this, I believe, in the Time Life books. I think I read about them in the Russian one, this delicacy. I want to try it. And Nastasia and I in vain tried to locate some. We bought some sturgeon in hopes that we could get some spine out of it and they'd already removed it so we couldn't get anything out of it. But this is it was a huge delicacy. It was, it was, uh, what they would do is squeeze all of the fluffy stuff out of the middle that you're talking
+
+[54:06] about, and then they would dry it, and then they would chop it up, re- salt, dry it up, reconstitute it and use it in fancy soups. And the one piece of information that's all over the internet about it now that wasn't when we researched it before, was that it was part of the last meal served on the Titanic. One of the soups, one of the last meals in 1st class, had this ingredient in it. If you want to read a little bit about it. You can go to the animal food resource. This is a Google book. The animal food resources of different nations with mentions of some of the special dainties of various people derived from the
+
+[54:37] animal kingdom by Peter Lund Simmons from the 1880s, and it's available on the Google books. And at 1st I thought it was a really charming book because it also has a better description of the rice bird, the
+
+[54:48] bobolink and how it was used in the U.S. and it's similarity to Ordolon. Best description I've read of it so far, including the market assistant, which is another great book I read from the
+
+[54:56] 1800s or the Carolina Rice Kitchen translation by Hess, or not translation, but, you know, reprint. Anyway, my point is, interesting book. Intel, like, intel, the 1st chapter is on cannibalism and they're busting, he's busting out so much hardcore racism. I know it's the 1800s and everything, but just makes it so hard. So it starts with saying that luckily for
+
+[55:19] us, and when he says us, of course, he means, you know, white European stock. Luckily for us, cannibals don't find the flesh of whites tasty. And I'm not, I can't even bring myself to say, like,
+
+[55:32] who, who are esteemed as being the tasty ones, but it's just, it's just, uh, it's horrible. Anyway, uh, but uh, good, good description of things uh, uh, like the, the Vasiga. Now, so yes, sturgeon, uh, noto chord is, and by the way, Stas, we never got to see it because, but now there's videos of it on YouTube, people pulling it out. Yeah, and it's like as big around as like, what shape, what am I making here? Maybe it's like half inch across or something like this? Like a jump rope. People use it like a jump rope. It's long. And here's how you get it out. Here's how you get the cord out. So, oh, oh, oh. So the question is, why would you think that this is bad? But then you go online and everyone says that there's all these kind of like tales of how it's toxic, how if you cut it, it'll ruin the meat and all this other stuff, I found a very old, and I forgot to put the link on, a very
+
+[56:24] old, uh, uh, article from um, a university on closely related fish, the paddle fish and cleaning it. The issue is this. In sturgeon meat and in paddlefish meat, you want the white part of the meat and the blood, anything that has blood on it, anything that is connected with the kind of the yellowish stuff around the spine or the blood that's close to the skin
+
+[56:45] surface. Anything that's not that white meat is detested by the fisherman that get it because they say it tastes incredibly fishy and that no one will like it.
+
+[56:54] So there's every attempt is made to bleed out a sturgeon or a paddlefish as soon as it's humanly possible and to get as much of the blood out. And the old school people. Don't say that the stuff is toxic. What they say is, is that you remove the spinal cord to allow the fish to bleed more effectively and to get more of the blood to drain
+
+[57:13] out. And here's how you do it. You take the tail and you cut around the tail, right? So you cut around the tail without cutting through this noto cord, which is like this hard rope, right? Cut almost all the way around it through it. Then some people disagree on whether or not you also need to make a
+
+[57:28] mark to cut at the head, to sever it up the top. People disagree on this. Here's the part the style is going to like. You grab the whole fish, which are huge, costurgeons are big, and you grab the tail and you go crack, crack. You turn it like 90 degrees each way and you crack the connections. And then you use the tail as a handle, and you pull on it, and you can see the noto cord ripping out of the back of the fish, and it comes out like this weird like piece of intestine with little like... But it comes out white. So it doesn't have the blood in it. Although I saw a guy do it on a paddle fish and it was a bloody mess. But you pull it out, right? And that was done to increase the speed at which you get the blood out. The modern sturgeon filleting technique that I saw, um, from these guys in Oregon, they're super
+
+[58:13] fast and they they don't deal with the spinal cord at all. In fact, this one guy doesn't even end up gutting it. He just cuts the filets off without ever gutting it and then just throws the whole head and the tail in. But he's missing out on taking this spinal cord. Now, again, I don't know about the goop in the in the middle, and there are some people who are using extracts of sturgeon notochord for medical purposes, but I didn't get a chance to wade through the patents on
+
+[58:38] that. But spinal cord is used in the past as a very high end food stuff. And everything I can read says that the removal of the spinal cord was just a technique to make sure that you get the blood
+
+[58:49] out, to increase the quality of the meat because nobody likes fishy tasting sturgeon. And I encourage everyone to go look at the crazy videos of people pulling that. Now, listen, I don't want to hear anything. There are varieties of sturgeon out there. that can be responsibly farmed, that are controlled by fisheries. So I'm not advocating taking, you know, a beautiful, amazing fish that's close to extinction and overfishing anymore. I'm not. But go look at some of these crazy videos of people pulling the noto chords out of paddlefish and sturgeons. It's bananas. Anyway, cooking issues.
+
+[59:25] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[59:37] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[59:56] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, you choose coming to your lives from Roberta's Pizzeria in the back of, no, well, we're in the back of
+
+[0:39] Roberta's. We in Bushwick. kind of the back of Bushwick, too, though, right? Pretty much. Kind of like the butt end of... Like the back of Williamsburg and the front of Bushwick. Oh, really? You think this is the front end of Bushwick? I think people who actually live in Bushwick might disagree. don't know. I live here. Yeah, you live in industrial Bushwick or you live in Bushwick? I live in Bushwick Bushwick, like by the park. Yeah, but, I mean, this is like East Industrial Williamsburg Park. Stuff. Yeah. Well, Bushwick sounds a little more catchy than that, right? Bushwick. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey, guys. How's the wine? It's good. You want to tell us what you've given us a drink? I wish I could. Wow. Yeah. Well, it's some form of oxidized wine that nastasia. By the way, here's something for all you people that she actually enjoys. She likes various varieties of oxidized wine products. Hey, look at that. I didn't even know. Like, are you a big sherry fan? Not really. I think it has something to do with the color. I like the orange color. I like the weird taste. That sounds like you. All right. So, uh, listen, this is actually a real coincidence. I don't want people to think that I'm chilling out for sponsors here because I had no idea underground meats was, is this the 1st time they're sponsoring us? Uh, 1st or second? I think maybe once or twice before, but he was here recently. Cool, dude. Nice. Well, anyway, turns out the guys from underground meets in Madtown, as I guess they like to call it, the cheese head, cheese
+
+[2:06] head folks. Uh, you know, have you ever met, you ever hung out with people from Madison? Wisconsin? I mean, just Johnny Hunter from Underground Meats. Here's the thing about Madison, Wisconsin. I think I went once when I was a little kid because I used to go to Oshkosh for the fly-in, you know, with the EAA flying. But people from Madison freaking love it. Like everyone that went to school up there, everyone, they just, they freaking love it. You ever meet someone from Madison who's like, yeah, man. Madison. Everybody I know from Madison is obsessed with a card game called Sheep's Head. Like Sheepshead Bay, but not, but not Sheepshead Bay. It a card game. And whenever Madison people get together, they play sheep's head. What's it based on? Is it a trick-based game? No, I can't even really describe it because I always lose because I don't know how to play because I'm not from Madison. Does it involve cheese or beer? Well I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, so back to what we were talking about. Turns out, the underground meets, by the way, which is part of a larger thing of
+
+[3:04] Majig called the underground food collective that's going on there in Madison, right?
+
+[3:08] They have a Kickstarter, and I read about it. It's actually quite an interesting Kickstarter. So, uh, just to talk about here. First, you want to search on go to Kickstarter.com or anywhere, I guess, to Google. And search for underground, underground meets and then Kickstarter, and you'll get it right away. And it's very interesting. Here's the thing. They have a, um, they have a, uh, the right to sell their cured meat and charcuterie on a state level, right? They have Wisconsin state approval, but they want to get USDA approval so that they can sell across state
+
+[3:42] lines, so they can approve to sell across state lines. In order to do that, you need to have what's called validated asset plants. Now, for you guys, it don't know what a Hasset plan is. Hasup stands for hazard analysis, critical control points. And it's the fundamental core. Oh, by the way, calling your question is two, 718-4972128, that's 784972128 back to Hassim. So has it, is it's the core of food safety in the United States and actually in other countries as well. And it was originally designed for the space
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+[4:12] program. At least this is my interpretation of it. You know, the space program, they, when they were doing that, they realized that, you know, if an astronaut got food poisoned in space, it could
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+[4:23] be, it could have some serious, serious, serious consequences. So, you know, you don't want the astronauts to get the runs in space because how you going to hold that stuff in? Just kidding. That's really why. They just don't want them to be sick in space. So they wanted to have a 0 tolerance policy on foodborne illness in space. And so they applied a lot of the same verification and checking
+
+[4:43] techniques to the food that was going into the space program, as was going into the individual components, the switches, the wires, you know, the materials that were in the spacecraft themselves.
+
+[4:53] So large companies figured out a way to, in essence, as best you can, guarantee food safety. So big, big companies were involved in this program, ones like Pillsbury. It just became the over overarching way that we do food safety in the U.S. And what it stands for is hazard analysis. You 1st have to analyze the hazards. And a hazard can be anything from maybe some person was picking fruit in a field
+
+[5:18] somewhere and their ring fell off. And their ring fell off into, uh, this has happened to me. Not while I was picking fruit, but while I was washing dishes. Ring falls off, and then it ends up in the basket of fruit and
+
+[5:29] thing, and then it ends up in your equipment, and then somehow ends up in your food, and then you chew on the ring, and, you know, lo and behold, you crack your tooth. Well, that's a hazard, right? So you've analyzed that hazard. Uh, and those hazards can be anything from things like actual foreign object, damage, stuff like that, foreign objects, to uh, adult, like deliberate
+
+[5:48] adulteration by things like terrorists, which is why a lot of the has also got a big boost in terms of uh, traceability uh, after 9-11. Uh, to destroying uh, pathogens, to ensuring the cold train, all of these things are analyzing where there can be possible hazards within uh,
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+[6:05] the, the, the food chain all the way from the, where the wrong reading was produced until the consumer puts it in their mouth. Uh, right? Okay. Now, the, the, that's only the 1st part. You have to analyze the hazards, hazard analysis. Now you have it's called critical control point. And you say, okay, I know there's a hazard. You know, person might drop their ring into the basket of fruit that they're picking.
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+[6:26] Now you have to have a control point. Well, so how am I going to control to make sure that the ring doesn't make it into the apple pie. Well, let's say I put a metal detector at the front of the
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+[6:38] factory, when the apples come in, all the apples go through a metal detector, and if there's any metal, we make sure we take it out. That's a control point. Now, I guess they wanted a catchy thing, so they called it Hassop, because there's actually a 3rd and very important part to Hassop, and that's verification. You have to have log books and you have to be able to verify that you've checked and verify that your control points are adequately monitoring your products to ensure that they're safe.
+
+[6:59] Hazard analysis, critical control point and verification, right? Has it. Now, uh, you know, it's, these are things that are done. For instance, modified asset plans, simple asset plans, are put in place all the
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+[7:10] time, and restaurants, for instance, here in New York, for sous vide cooking, but also, it's used in a much more kind of screwed down, tightened down, button down
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+[7:20] way industry by everyone who's a commercial food producer. Now, the issue, if you're going to get a USDA approval to do something like charcuterie, is you need what's called a validated
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+[7:28] asset plan, right? And what a validated asset plan is not only that you shown in theory that you have analyzed all the hazards and that you have chosen the correct critical control points and that you are verifying
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+[7:42] properly. You have to then prove it with an outside 3rd party source. And that costs money. Now, let me just show you something. There's an article, Jonathan Hunter from the Underground Food Collective, did an interview on food safetynews.com about this Kickstarter they're doing. What these guys are trying to do is they're trying to raise 40 grand, right? They raise the 40 grand. They can hire the outside sources to do the microbiology and do all the things to prove that the techniques that they're writing down for curing
+
+[8:10] meats do, in fact, kill pathogens, right? They're going to, presumably, they're going to measure the salt content, the pH. I don't know if they're going to measure water activity or what. But they're going to verify that the techniques and tools that they use to verify safety for the salumi products that they're
+
+[8:24] making. They're going to verify that those things are in fact safe. And then they have to, you pay someone to verify that for them. So here's a comment by someone named JT on the
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+[8:32] internet on the article on food safety diet. And I'm mentioning this because it's like classic people who make comments on the
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+[8:39] internet, presumably in their pajamas late at night. Well, they're sipping on their last glass of wine before they hit the bed or while they're watching Cherry Springer. They think that they can make a comment that is useful. So here's what JT said. And I'm only saying this because I want people to know kind of where this kind of comic goes wrong so you don't think the same way. Because what these guys are doing, they're asking for 40 grand. They're going to have their own validated asset plan. But then, I forgot to mention this. I should have said this right at the outset. What they're going to do is take this asset plan and then publish it so that anyone who uses the same procedures and same
+
+[9:09] equipment can then use that same asset plan without having to shell out 40 grand.
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+[9:14] They're trying to make an open source kind of validated asset plan. That's the concept. Okay, look. So JT writes in incorrectly. If you understand, this is about like, why, like, I'll paraphrase JT. What do you need? What do you need 40 grand for, it has to plan to hire someone else to do, it has to plan for. That's how I imagine JT talks. Because he says, if you understand your processes and how to make them safe and clean, then you should really be able to develop your own
+
+[9:36] Hasset plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist.
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+[9:40] See, already like a lack of understanding. Yeah, you can have a template for a theoretical haset plan, but you need a verified haset plan for specific procedures, especially something like
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+[9:49] salumi where you're dealing with multifactorial barriers to killing bacteria and pathogens, like water activity, salt content,
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+[9:57] pH, all intertwined, and time, whatever. Anyway. So, uh, you should really be able to develop your own haset plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist. If you need to hire a 3rd party to develop your has to play, I forget that you need to, because you need to prove it. Not only do you need to provide the actual scientific, you can go, anyone who cares to, can go on the FSIS, which is whatever it is, food safety, inspection, services, whatever, website, and read what's required to get a validated
+
+[10:22] haset plan because it's right there on the thing. Uh, and, uh, I know, the URL is too long to read, but they, they have it there. At 1st you have to get your own scientific bolstering facts,
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+[10:34] right? From actual scientific literature. And if that doesn't exist, which thankfully it does in this case, but if that doesn't exist, you have to provide it. And then you have to do that and in practice prove that your type specific techniques work. Anyway, so if you need to hire a 3rd party developer has a plan, then you probably should not be in the business you're in because that means you are highly ignorant about how to safely produce your products or
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+[10:54] JT. You were highly ignorant about regulation. Uh, so please go check out uh, their Kickstarter. And remember, if you enjoy the ability for small producers who cannot afford to have a validated
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+[11:07] Hasset plan. If you would enjoy to have more of those people around in our country making delicious products or at least making products that they believe in. If you support people doing what they believe in, then you should go take a look at this Kickstarter. What do you think, Sam? Yeah. Okay. Was he talking about that on the on the on the program yet? Yeah, we did. We did a short piece with him that I think will debut soon on the whole issue, breaking down Hasop and everything. Yeah, I mean, well, I hope what I just said, put a jige, what he
+
+[11:36] said, me, because I kind of just said it off the top of my head. But remember, you only got 22 days to donate to that Kickstarter, and they send you salami if you do. Anyways. Okay. Got some questions in. Now, Steven, Steven Benzger wrote in earlier and he says that, hey, I asked you, called last week about transbutamination, hydrocoloid polymerization, resources to post, but I can't remember for the life of me what I said I was going to post.
+
+[12:00] Can anyone remember what the heck I said I was going to post? Someone, like, Stephen, tweet into me and tell me exactly what I said I was going to post, and I'll make sure that I do it, because you got to remember, like, my
+
+[12:09] mind totally, like, goes blank Fritz's and runs away with me. listen to the show. I don't think there's any college. You sure it wasn't from too much? It was many weeks ago if this because this email was lost. So it was many weeks ago. There were no calls last week. No, Justino. All right. Anyway, so Stephen was also curious about some foods that he can circulate and refrigerate for long periods of
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+[12:30] time. Being a medical student, uh, he says, I like to cook on week, hope to cook on weekends and reheat them before or at school. Thanks. Okay, well, there are a lot of products that you, in fact, like one of the main benefits of, uh, now, let's go sous vide in particular, of sous vide
+
+[12:47] cooking is you can pre-circulate a lot of your stuff and then just re-therm it. You know, remember, you can't, it's another one of the bizarre things. You can't say reheat because reheat is a technical term. You can say it at home. It doesn't matter. But like in like in professionally, if you say reheat, you have to reheat it to a pathogen killing
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+[13:03] temperature. Whereas if you've pasteurized your product and kept it, you know, properly cold during the thing, then you only have to re-thermalize it, which means you can heat up to any temperature you want. Okay, so most things are possible to do this way. The only thing that you can't really do, are things that you can't pasteurize. If you're going to, if you're going to heat something in a bag, right? And in this, when you're doing this, you're going to keep something for a long time. It's advisable to actually vacuum bag it because when you do things like zippies, there's some oxygen on the
+
+[13:35] inside and if you're doing foods that have or that are prone to oxidation, like meats, especially meats tend to oxidize on reheating, it's called warmed over
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+[13:43] flavor. If you have a problem, you know, products like that, it behooves you to get rid of the oxygen in there so that you don't have those sorts of issues on retherm, that you don't have kind of
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+[13:51] oxidize off labors. Not dangers, just off flavors. So, you probably want to invest in a vacuum bag in a situation like that. And you want to make sure if you're going to keep stuff for a long time that you pasteurize the products that you put in, right? Because if you don't pasteurize them, if you're just heating them to a point where,
+
+[14:08] uh, you know, maybe you like the way they taste, but you've left bacteria, you could be put in a situation where you actually have incubated a certain portion of the
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+[14:15] bacteria and cause it to be less safe. possible. I mean, not likely but possible. So you want to choose things that you can pasteurize. What does that mean? Don't do fish. Most fish can't be adequately pasteurized in a vacuum bag because you're going to have to cook it for too high or for too long to get
+
+[14:31] good pasteurization such that you can safely cool it and then rethermit again later. Almost anything, if you pasteurize it properly, can be kept in your fridge for a week and then eaten later with no ill effects. Now, commercially, there is data that some people have gotten things to grow
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+[14:49] in vacuum bags, uh, you know, at temperatures, um, between 38 Fahrenheit and 40 Fahrenheit in that range. And so we actually have to keep, uh, you know, if you're going to store stuff for a week commercially, at least in New York, I don't
+
+[15:05] know federally yet, because it's been a while since I've read this stuff, you actually have to keep your products below 40
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+[15:10] degrees. I mean, it's been a while, but I think the number is somewhere like 38 or maybe even 34. I gotta look it up. If you want to keep it for a full week. Otherwise, you have a shorter window to keep it. However, uh, in the reality, if you do uh, adequate pasteurization and you cool the stuff down uh, rapidly enough, you know, you're not going to get, um, you're not going to get in, in,
+
+[15:32] in most real world situations, any sort of bacterial growth on the inside of that bag within that one week, you know, within the, within the Monday to Friday
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+[15:39] window, if you're cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and you're going to eat it before a Monday or a
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+[15:44] Friday. Just make sure that you adequately pasteurize everything. That's all. I says. Yeah. She said that just so that I'll be quiet and move on to Sunday. I know, Sty. you so well. She's like, you just be quiet about the safety stuff. I was like, Staz doesn't care. Stas. Oh, you care about safety somewhat. I do. I do. Not my safety. No, no, no. All right. And with that, why don't we take our 1st commercial break coming back with cooking issues?
+
+[16:22] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about
+
+[16:40] animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of
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+[16:47] salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And welcome back. What's up? Oh, I thought they were gonna do another commercial. Nope, they're not. It's just us. Nice, right? Okay. Although we don't mind the commercials. We like commercials. kind of, right? Okay. Lucas writes in who we met. Pretty sure it's the same Lucas that we met at the, uh, at the, well, I 1st met him at the Kickstarter launch party and then at the, um, at the puffing gun party that we had, which was a good
+
+[17:46] party. Yeah. Good part. Good party. Okay. I believe I believe this is the same Lucas. Oh, I'm not sure. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack and Joe. I went to El Kalarkanroka, by the way, you know, was named, was it last year or a couple years ago, like the best restaurant in the world? Like, you know, it's the it's the Roka family. I've never, I've never. What? Who said it was? It one of those Peliguinas. know, I hate... First of all, like, we say this again. I'll say this again, although, you know, if you've met me, you've heard me say this many times. The idea of the best restaurants, the most ridiculous thing in the world. I mean, actually, that's not true. There are more ridiculous things. Like, you know, I don't know, like the Syrian government didn't do that chemical attack. That's more ridiculous. But, like, like, like, like, like best restaurant is just a silly concept because what does that mean?
+
+[18:32] Do you want to go out to, uh, you know, a 3 Michelin star meal every night? No, no. Hell no, right? So, like, it's like the best restaurant on any particular night. I mean, I don't know. It's like, but that said, it's one of the restaurants in the world, one of the, you know, I would
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+[18:49] say top 3 restaurants in the world that I want to go to that I haven't been to. Hey guys, Piper's on the line. Oh, Piper? All right. Well, let me make them hold. Boom. Boom. Oh, yeah. All right, now we'll take Piper now. We'll come back to Elkalar, Ken Rogan, man. I just wanted to be. Hey, Piper. Hey, Dave. How you doing? Pretty good. So we had a question a couple weeks ago, and I promised that I would get you on the line to talk about
+
+[19:18] it, and it has to do with puddings. And I know that you're a pudding head. And so, uh, you, you know, by the way, Piper works with us at uh, Booker and Dax Equipment Corporation and uh, worked for a while, um, doing research, food research, technical stuff for CP Coco, the manufacturers of such fine products as
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+[19:38] Gelan. and uh, a lot of the high grade pectins that you buy. And they also make, what else do they make? Like clear locust bean, what do they make? clear locust bean gum? Oh, video, carrot unions, and gum. Yeah. And, uh, they have locust bean gum. Yeah Well, they need the clear locust bean gum so they can make their fake gelatin stuff with carragina because everyone, if you want to do a
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+[20:00] vegetarian fake gelatin. Like one of the classic ones is a mixture of kappa car, uh, carriage. Well, mostly kappa carragene and locust bean gum to kind of soften to soften the texture of a little bit so it's not so brittle. But if you want to replace gelatin, it has to be fairly clear, so regular locust bean gum, which is cloudy, doesn't make a good gelatin replacer. So CP cocoa has to make this expensive clear locust bean gum. Would you say it's accurate? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, um, anyhoo, so, uh, I forget who it was, but uh, gentleman called in a couple
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+[20:30] weeks ago and said he was having problems with the texture of his puddings and he was doing kind of classic
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+[20:35] cornstarch based puddings. And I knew that you would be making the Piper version of the nastasia vegan face for not using some sort of better putting technology. So what, and I said, I would find out what Piper's favorite putting technology is. So go. Well, I mean, it really depends on what he has at hand to, like, just had cornstarch, you know. What I like to do is, uh, an iota, heavy,
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+[21:02] uh, a karaoke and blend. Sorry, Iota kappa and locust being planned. So like, Depending on firmness, like .3 iota .one kappa and then .5 locusting
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+[21:18] gum, just for some reason. Hold on a sec. So you say point what on the iota? I like to do about .3? Right. Now, now, have you had any experience with the readily available, uh, carragin and blends? Because some people don't really understand in general, is that hydrocolloids, like carraginans are carraginans are gotten from seaweeds, and all of the carraginas are from the similar varieties of seaweeds, but there's no such thing as pure kappa or pure iota, or pure lambda carragin. And carraginans, because of the result of kind of, you know, refining and purifying a natural seaweed product, are all kind of shotgun mixtures, and each manufacturer standardized as a particular carragin and blend for a particular application.
+
+[22:01] So one iota is not the same as another iota, one kappa is not the same as another kappa, right? They may have a different blend of kerogenians. They might have hydrocolides come in differing polymerization lengths, how long
+
+[22:14] they, how long the actual polysaccharides are that are in them, and so they have different ranges. But have you found that like the various iodas that are available for people to purchase are roughly similar in their action here or do you have a particular brand that you like to use that is available to humans?
+
+[22:29] The texture is, is, is pretty, pretty close to the,
+
+[22:37] to the most pure, um, blends that I can
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+[22:41] using from CT Calco. Okay. So you use their iota and their kappa. And you, well, you say it works fine. They're iota in their kappa. All right. And yeah, and taro works good too. Tara spices, iota, and kappa work fine. Okay. So give those give those percentages one more time? Uh, well, this is for like uh, creme brulee. Right. It's, uh, .3% yota,
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+[23:05] .one% tappa, and then .05 focusing gum. Okay. Now, uh, folks, just so you know, locust bean gum has to be heated above what, about, well, all of those things have to be heated above like 75 C or something like that, right?
+
+[23:20] Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't mind taking it to liking D. Yeah. But then, so if you're going to add something that would otherwise not work well at those temperatures, proteins, eggs, stuff like that, you would prehydrate that
+
+[23:31] stuff and then temper it back in, right? Because logust bean gum is never going to set and the carraginans aren't going to set until it gets down into the probably like the 130s Fahrenheit,
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+[23:41] 120s Fahrenheit, right? Yeah, and then, I mean, if you've got cornstarch, you can also, I mean, you can put that
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+[23:47] in and that could, that would sort of stop in the, the gel up a little bit, it would interrupt the structure. Well, that's also why, you know, Wiley's cornstarch is his egg yolks to stop them from setting in his
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+[24:00] hollandaise sauce. I believe that's what he does. Well, he probably uses something more sophisticated, but that'll also stop, that'll also buffer the proteins a bit if you add them to the proteins first, right? Yeah, I mean, it'll, yeah, it'll do a couple of things. I mean, it'll, it'll also stop up some of your, it's not amazingly well. But what I like to do is do about 10% or maybe like 12% sugar, drive land on my hydrocollars at that. Um, dispersed in 5050 cream and milk. And then, uh, beat that to, you know, roughly 85 and then put it in the blender and add, uh, what, like, 2 egg yolks per, 250 milliliters of, of liquid, and then I add that at about, like, as it's cooling down, it helps, uh, it just helps
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+[24:57] spew things up, and then I just pour it into a, setting pan. All right. So now to translate some of the things that Piper just said, he dry blends the hydrocolloids with sugar. Why? Because the main problem with using hydrocollage. There's 2 things you need to do with hydrocollid. hydrocolytes swell and clumps. So if you want them to work you have to prevent that. So dry blending with sugar helps to physically separate the particles of the hydrocolloid so that they can be dispersed,
+
+[25:19] right? After he disperses them, he hydrates them by heating, right? And then hydrates them in the closest thing to pure water he has in this case, which is milk and
+
+[25:30] where else he's going to do. And then afterwards, as it's cooling in the blender under high shear, adds things like egg yolks and then allows the product to set. Now, if you break down what he's using for the actual hydrocolloid base here, he's using iota carraginen. Iota
+
+[25:46] carragin, and by the way, Carraginen, one of the main things about carraginen, that's awesome, is it has a synergistic effect with milk, meaning it takes a very, very small amount of carraginen to set milk.
+
+[25:59] And the advantage of that is that the smaller amount of hydrocollard you use to create a gel, the less masking you have a flavor. Well, it's cheaper also, but you know, for most people at home, that's not really a concern because the amounts you're using are so small. But also, there's a lot less flavor masking if you're using much smaller amounts of hydrocoloids. So Iota, Kerragen, is a kind of rubbery, uh, if you use a lot of it, kind of rubbery, uh, and kind of bouncy textured stuff. But, you know, kind of, you know, blowing, blowing, blowing, blowing kind of texture, it has an interesting properties. Unlike most other hydrocoloids, it will reform a gel after it has been sheared, which is interesting, right? But it's the soft one. Kappa is brittle, more like Agar. It snaps when you break it in half. So he's doing a mix between Iota and kappa to get the kind of texture he wants. And then he's adding locust bean gum. The locust bean gum is going to do 2 things. It's going to soften the kappa a bit, right? And it's also going to stabilize any of the water that's not locked into the
+
+[27:06] Carraginan gel matrix and prevent that water from weeping out. That's when you're saying cineresis. So when you have locust bean gum that you're adding, locust bean gum is preventing the weeping or the
+
+[27:17] cinoresis that you often get in gel systems or even in regular pudding systems, if you consider them a gel system. And in fact, that is why you have in most ice creams, 2 stabilizers. It's not that they want to jack everything up, but they have one that's doing a mild gelling, right, to prevent crystallization,
+
+[27:35] something like kerraginen. And then you have something to prevent what's called way off or cinoresis, even at low temperature of liquids out of the matrix of the ice cream.
+
+[27:45] And that is something like a locust bean gum or a guar. Yes or no? Yeah, all right. And also, it says that people use, uh, non-baker's percentages, because it would, it would throw off the recipe. You say it again? They shouldn't do the baker's percentages, it's like absolute percentages. You're talking about, like, when you say, well, so, Piper, when Piper, because he worked for CP Coco writes a recipe and he says a percent, he means
+
+[28:15] that, uh, there is, um, there is one gram of hydrocoloid in 99 grams of
+
+[28:22] water and that's one%. Yeah, but you're talking less than a percent on everything. It's going to be minimal for this. Well, I mean, it's going to be minimal plus you've got 10 to 12%. sugar, you know, it makes a, it makes a difference. With the sugar, it does, not with the hydrocolid, though. But the sugar is, as a percentage of the whole, your whole, your liquid portion is smaller. I don't know. I'm sorry. But okay, so what you're saying is, what you're saying is they should figure out what their total weight of their batch is and then do your hydrocoloids based on that.
+
+[28:54] Yeah. Because you haven't calculated a liquid a liquid basis only. Yeah. Now, we should calculate a liquid basis on it because no one does that, you know? No one. I mean, whenever I write a hydrocolid recipe, I always try to write the numbers based on percent of water and then try to ignore the sugar stuff, but it's a
+
+[29:17] really, it's a complicated thing. It's a problem. The fact of the matter is, if you find a recipe that you like, that works, as long as you are consistent in applying that recipe, you're going to be okay.
+
+[29:27] Piper's method, which is the actual method you use in the, in the actual, in, in business, in the industry commercially, is better because if you think about the hydrocolloid to liquid base as being, or the
+
+[29:38] hydrocolly, it's a total base and how the sugar interacts with it. going to make it easier for you to make a 2nd and 3rd recipe that don't contain
+
+[29:44] sugar, right? That's the, that's what you're saying, but it makes it more difficult for someone at home to, uh, to figure
+
+[29:52] out, uh, uh, the recipe in general. Would you say that's accurate, Piper or no? That's true. It also makes it easier for scaling. What, you're testing? Your technique? Yeah, my technique. I mean, that's, that must be a reason why everyone does it in the real world, but chefs just don't like it. They don't do it, you know? anyway. All right, pipes. Thanks for calling in. see you in a little bit. Yep. All right. So back to Lucas's problem. I went to El Kalar, Canroka a couple of months ago and really enjoyed it. The problem is that this place is in Spain and not exactly a budget meal. That's true. I hear it's quite expensive. Anyway. One of the most impressive things I had there was an oyster with a venison mayo.
+
+[30:34] It was an intense, an oyster with venison mail. It was an intense experience. I'm trying to reproduce it, but I have no idea how to infuse so much flavor into the mail. I can make a quite a strong stock with a pressure cooking using multiple extraction. Typically, once you make mayo, you do not add much of any additional liquid. What happens is either I end up with not a very flavorful product or I break the mayo. Do you think that they somehow infuse the oil directly or do they make some ultra flavorful stock? I'm trying with duck rather than venison as I don't have venison, but I guess this is not an issue regards Lucas. Okay. Okay, there's, there's, I have some guesses as how you do it. There's there's a couple of ways you can do this. One, you could, uh, the simplest way, uh, the kind of the most bonehead simple way is
+
+[31:18] to um, make a fluid gel, like a geland-based fluid gel out of the stock. I know stock already has gelatin in it, but you make a fluid gel, right? And then you can mix the fluid gel into the mayonnaise without breaking the
+
+[31:32] mayonnaise because you're not actually adding a liquid to it. You're adding a 2nd solid that has the same consistency as the mayonnaise itself. So it shouldn't dork with the emulsion too much, right? So you're going to have a mayonnaise, and then you're going to fold into the mayonnaise, something with the exact same texture as the mayonnaise, but just
+
+[31:49] a fluid gel. Okay? Now, that's one. Now, the more high tech way to do it. Okay. And if you were going to do the fluid gel, and you're going to do a mayonnaise, I'd say with Jelen, let's see, you could do an agar fluid gel. Agar fluid gel will be easier to achieve in terms of stuff you could go out and buy at a store. If you're going to do an Agar fluid gel, it would probably be on the order of 0.9% Agar. Oh, oh, but Agar and gelatin can cause problems sometimes. Mm, I have to look at it. Jeland should work. But the real baller way to do it would be to take your venison stock,
+
+[32:25] right? And then get an enzyme. And Stas, we got to find a source of this enzyme. one of my favorite enzymes of all time to use. It's called correlace. So correlates is an enzyme that breaks down gelatin. Now the problem with, like, using, let's say, a meat tenderizer, like, uh,
+
+[32:40] papayin or one of these other things that you can buy, uh, meat tenderizer, enzymes, breakdown proteins, but they can often break down the proteins
+
+[32:50] into uh, bitter polypeptides, okay? And also, I've tested it. They're not as effective as you would like in totally breaking all the gelatin down, you know, as you
+
+[33:01] want for the application I'm about to tell you. This enzyme correlates, which breaks down gelatin, specifically or specifically chosen, because when it breaks down gelatin, it does it in a way that does not create any off flavors at all.
+
+[33:15] It creates only completely soluble, non-viscous and tasteless polypeptides, right? So, and this stuff is a miracle. You could take colds, well, cold. If it's cold, it takes a little longer for it to work, but you could take jellied stock, drip a couple of drops and of correlates into
+
+[33:32] it, and it completely melts the stock down nothing. So it has no more body in it, right? Once you destroy the gelatin, you can take that stock, you could take 2 liters of stock and reduce it down to 100 milliliters.
+
+[33:49] And then, and it still will not set. It becomes, you have to worry about not scorching because it has an incredibly high solid level just from the, uh, you know, from the, from the, the solids in it. But not gelatin. And so it allows you to get ridiculous reductions on that
+
+[34:04] stuff, and then you can incorporate that as a liquid base into mayonnaise without having interfering effects from setting gelatin or any of these other problems or having to add too
+
+[34:15] much, it's going to break it. And that's the way, you know, when I, when I had, when I, back when I had correlates, when I had some of it, that's the way we would do like super strong beef flavored
+
+[34:24] drinks. We would make, we would break the, uh, or like very, very concentrated, very concentrated cold
+
+[34:31] consommes that were liquid by breaking the gelatin and then hyper reducing it. And then that, you know, you could then probably get a lot of flavor into a mayonnaise without having to resort to something like a fluid gel. But if you want to go out and do it tonight, I would go out and make a gel and fluid gel with your venison stock, you know, 1st reduce it, make a gel and fluid gel, blend it, and then, um, and then fold it
+
+[34:55] in, that should, that should work. What you think, so? Good job. Again, she's like, I don't care. If he asks me, just tell him to stop talking. Hey Dave. Yep. We've had a lot of people kind of tweeting and writing us about 3D printers and asking us to cover that. What do you know about 3D printers and food? Us meaning us or us meaning the greater us? The greater us, the station. Uh, well, that's an interesting question. Um, so, the 3D printing of food is something, you know, we were, uh, you know, a number of years ago, we were, you know, dealing with uh, Cornell with the Fab at home, which is
+
+[35:29] uh, basically extrud an extruder, right? They were on the Rachel Ray program, and we had to run over some syringes because there's some interest that didn't come through. We still had some syringes left over, so we brought them over. But and Piper and Nastasia wanted to get into the studio audience. Did anyone that day win a cruise? We never saw the show. She didn't even look to see whether or not you didn't win a cruise. So you're upset about a cruise that you may or may not have won. What? don't want to know I don't want to know. No. You don't want to, wait, you don't want to know. Because I would have fought harder. You take the... okay, here's a question. before we get into the printing. So like the question, if you could take a genetic test to know whether or not you're more likely to get a specific disease or not, right? When you take it, answer yes, because then you can prevent or do something. So you want to know like the your possible future genetically, but you don't want to know whether or not the cruise was an actual
+
+[36:18] issue. I would have fought harder. Like I paid for this genetic testing. I paid, you know, like I'm doing everything I can. I didn't do everything I could for the Rachel ratio, possible cruise. So I don't want to know if I go to one. Because you don't want to know that like possible personal weakness caused you to
+
+[36:32] not get a cruise. Right. Fair. Fair. Uh, so, uh, back to 3D printing. So we were getting this 3D printer to work with. And, you know, the goal, people have this thing in their
+
+[36:45] heads. And there was a New York Times article on it very recently on printing 3D food. And the goal out there is that somehow, you know, you're going to print your table, and then you're going to print your your plate, and then you're going to print your food, and then you're just going to sit down and someone's going to email you this awesome
+
+[37:01] recipe, and it's going to print out, like, along with everything. And I've never been a fan of this idea, ever. I've always thought it was kind of, you know, not, um, not what I think cooking is about and not what I think food is about. I think the idea of 3D printing architectural units is very interesting because it allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise do.
+
+[37:25] The idea of 3D, and we use 3D printers when we're designing equipment at Booker and Dax equipment Corporation. We use 3D printers and we use 3D printing sources to do rapid prototypes. But food isn't about prototyping or about, you know, short runs of
+
+[37:41] something like a facade for an architectural building that you can then create a concrete with a 3D printer in a way you couldn't otherwise do. Food is about the day in, day out, creation is something that, um, that you want to eat. And in general, like the 3D food technology that's out there right now is all about extruding paste and then setting that paste into something else.
+
+[38:01] And there's only so, you know, so far you can go with the extrusion of different types of paste.
+
+[38:07] I mean, it's hard to get all the different textures you want, hard to get all the different flavors you want. I mean, it's not, I mean, if someday they could, you know, scan a steak and then reproduce it
+
+[38:18] exactly, then, I don't know, maybe. But it's just not what I think about when I think of food. I like to think about my food being produced. I like to think about it growing or being raised. I like to think about how it's harvested, how it's treated, and none of these
+
+[38:31] things, as yet, are reducible to pushing a button and printing it out, and like not even close. I'm not saying that that won't happen someday, but it's not even in the realm. It's not even in the, it's not even in the sphere of what's going on right now, literally what's going on right
+
+[38:47] now is paste is being extruded out of tubes into shapes. So it's it's it's like, hey, look, the applications, the brain dead, what you need applications, do you want your scallop paste to look like Mickey Mouse or a space
+
+[39:02] shuttle or do you want like, you know, your boyfriend's head, you know, in hot dog
+
+[39:07] meat? If you want your boyfriend's head in hot dog meat either to chop it to pieces with a samurai sword or to, you know, lovingly munch on it, then 3D
+
+[39:15] printing fantastic? You know what I mean? Because it is great at reconstructing your boyfriend's head out of hot dog meat. Fantastic at it. There's no better way because unless you're going to hire an artist to make a sculpture or unless you're going to mold your boyfriend's head and then jam hot dog meat into it to make a
+
+[39:33] boyfriend hot dog head, you know? And by the way, you know, that's assuming that you can stand a skinless wiener because, you know, I prefer Frankfurter with a real skin on it. You know what I'm saying? St is making some weird faces now. But the, uh, because her mind works in in gross ways. Boyfriend, hot dog headface. Yeah, new one, right? Yeah, exactly. Oh, wienerface. Oh, jeez. Uh, so the, uh, by the way, like that... I wish you could put this out there for everyone to know because I'm so sick of you getting these questions about 3D printing, like we're going to eat some phenomenal food out of a 3D print. Which we're not. It's paste. It's paste. It's paste. Wow, I love Nastasia finally coming out. That's like the 1st time in 3 years, I think. We've been doing this, you know, for 4 years, I think now. Yeah, yeah. And nobody has said that it's paced. Yeah. Yeah. Paste. And so, like, here's the thing. Here's the thing, right? So we did come up with one thing we liked, which was, you know, what is a novel thing you can do with a 3D
+
+[40:35] printer, uh, with paste that is hard to otherwise do. And it was this idea that, uh, you know, uh, um, Lifton came up
+
+[40:44] with, with a stochastic printing where it's basically, you, you, you hold the toothpaste tubes, not toothpaste tube, but you hold the syringe up high, and you let it form a squiggle, almost like velcro, and you get these kind of masa squiggles that, you know, are, you know, that have, they're good because you could fry
+
+[40:59] them, and the texture is different from what would ordinarily get with masa,
+
+[41:03] right? And so I always said that from very get go. I was like, I don't really want to use it unless there's some sort of new texture we can produce, our new flavor we can produce. But, uh, another interesting fact. Someone tweeted in maybe a couple weeks ago about this. You ever heard of this? You heard of this Beyond Eggs thing? No? So there's this product out there and it was funded in part by gates. It's some kind of Silicon Valley thing where it's a completely non-egg egg. It's all plant-based, and it fooled Bill Gates into, like, oh, it's, well, it's just as good as a real egg because it fooled Bill Gates. Now, I need to try this myself. Please, someone from California, if you can find a Whole Foods saying, we love at Booker and Dax to have a sample of Beyond Eggs, to see whether or not it's just that Bill Gates has horrible taste buds for eggs or whether or not they were just overcooked or whatever, but apparently Styles, you can make scrambled eggs out of
+
+[41:56] these. It tastes like the real legit deal. Since when's Bill Gates like the standard by which we judge these things. crazy. Well, because he's got the money to back it up. I guess that's why. Oh, color, you're on the air. Yeah, hi, I have a sort of a two-part question about live poultry. live poultry markets. Um, I recently bought a chicken at a live poultry market. It was a label root chicken, so I think it was, by the standards, it's supposed to be somewhat older than the normal commercial breed.
+
+[42:27] And I was just curious if there's just a different approach to dealing with live bulgy. I tell you what I did with it. It was just a standard chicken roasting tech, technique. But I, after buying it, I salted it, and then I read on, on the turkey
+
+[42:42] post, on cooking issues of the rigor mortise. So I think I let it sit for about 24 hours in the fridge after it had been fairly heavily
+
+[42:50] salted, and then I used the low temperature roasting at about 150
+
+[42:56] for about, you know, 2.5 hours to bring it up to about 135 and then finished it in a hot oven after resting, crisp it up.
+
+[43:05] I think the texture was actually a lot chewier than I expected. And I didn't know if this was, was related to the age of the chicken or cooking techniques with something that's been that recently
+
+[43:16] killed or if you have any thoughts here on the approach. Well, old, old chick, old chickens. I mean, if it actually is old, like old chickens are, they taste better, but they are never going to be as tender as a young chicken, you know, never.
+
+[43:33] And, you know, so that's like, you know, when you go to, you know, other countries that, you know, as their standard chicken and things like stews and
+
+[43:41] whatnot have older, uh, older birds, they're just not tender. And you just have to like kind of get past the American ideal that chicken is supposed to be tender.
+
+[43:52] Now that said, uh, when you, now we've, when you cooked it, did you grab the legs and move them around, had
+
+[44:00] they, had they loosened up, had they limbered? You know, I cut off the legs right when I got it home. So, um, but just, I mean, the defeat. Sorry. They didn't feel, but the legs, they didn't feel any, any, any different than I, I'm used to, and most of the poultry I buy is in, in Chinatown markets
+
+[44:18] that, presumably is, you know, somewhat more recently killed than stuff you have in the supermarket, but I'm not,
+
+[44:24] I'm not, you know, it didn't feel any different to me in that respect. Right. I mean, I've purchased, uh, I've purchased poultry at the live market and then let it rest overnight and had it be tough as nails,
+
+[44:38] right? On things like duck, but I think a lot was the, you know, also the breed of duck that I was getting. Um, and, you know, my, the main reason I go to live poultry now isn't for chickens, because I'll just get that, there are, you know, suppliers that I like and
+
+[44:54] trust that have good chickens, but I'll go for the turkeys. Um, especially before I had the good contacts here at heritage
+
+[45:01] foods, I would go for the turkeys. to get them and I would let them rest a couple of days, probably. Although, you know, supposedly overnight. But like, you know, I think it's probably a combination. I think maybe you could have gone a little bit longer. I also don't know, and this is an interesting question. I don't know the effects of salting during
+
+[45:22] rigor as opposed to salting after rigor. I don't know, I have no idea. Like, literally, I literally, I have no concept. But this place has a buy 10 chickens get one free. So it sort of encourages you to do these sort of side by side experiments. The 2nd question is just related to the killing method. I was just, was also reading about the Ikigime. I was just wondering, has anyone done this sort of, uh, um, flesh comparison with different chicken killing methods? I, I'm, I, I should, I should, should back up to say too. I am just looking at a Wikipedia entry for Mike, the headless chicken, and
+
+[45:59] it was this chicken that in the 40s uh, was decapitated, but somehow survived for years. So it was reminding me of reading about Ikajime and wondering if, you know, there's, there's, there's a comparative, uh, study of, of, of killing methods on, on poultry. There's not to my knowledge, I'm familiar with Mike the Headless Chicken, which interesting story. The guy chopped the head. Well, thought he chopped the head off of the chicken, let it run
+
+[46:26] around, like a chicken with its head cut off, and then came back and the sucker was still moving like a long time later, and then it turns out that he had left a certain portion of the brain stem in, and he would feed Mike by shoving, uh,
+
+[46:40] shoving uh, grain into its, you know, into its like open throat hole. And the sucker lived for a while, Mike the Hill is chicken. So that base, you know, what started as an incompetent slaughter made this farmer like a good chunk of change. You can go, but you know what's disappointing about Mike the Headless Chicken, is that there's no really, really good photos of Mike the Headless Chicken, right? You notice that? It's like there's some, there's nothing like no close-ups of where the head used to, whatever. Yeah, it's hard to tell from the photo where how exactly it was decapitated. Yeah, I think the guy hit it at an angle because like you could see it's like a little bit higher up in the back and like that's what allowed the portion of the brain stem that controls kind of the heart regulation and
+
+[47:19] peristalsis in the system to keep going. But back to the actual question. I don't think that the studies have been done on that. It's been a long time since I've read up on poultry slaughter. Most of the data out there on most animals shows that, um, uh, pre-slaughter stress is bad for meat quality, but I've read more stuff on, you know, obviously
+
+[47:42] in in pork. It's a huge issue with pig slaughter and cows. And I've obviously done a lot of work with fish on that, but the specific reasons why fish taste sport is has better texture as a result of the specialized killing techniques is because hard
+
+[48:01] rigor in a fish leads to mushy fillets into bad texture, especially for, you know, sushi sashimi applications. So I don't know, uh, you know, whether I don't know what the effects are of, for instance, preserving the ATP reserves of chicken
+
+[48:20] muscle. Now, you know, aside from that, you know, there's probably all sorts of, you know,
+
+[48:26] awful things that get injected into a chicken system, if it's freaked out right before it
+
+[48:31] gets slaughtered, right? So there's certain things going on. And, you know, for a number of years, I have had in my head, um, different tests to be able to do on this, but it gets it gets dicey. When you're doing slaughter tests on fish, people don't seem to mind. As soon as you move to, you know, hire creatures like bird, well, what perceived higher creatures like
+
+[48:55] birds, or even, you know, God forbid, into the range of mammals that are eating for food. People, people, um, People look at any sort of, uh, experiments like that as being somehow like
+
+[49:08] horrible, when in fact you're just trying to make it more humane. You're just trying to do better. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think I think the, the certified humane stuff that they, they sell
+
+[49:18] in in supermarkets, they used, they, they knocked them out first. I didn't have time to look it up extensively, but you know, that would definitely be different from a live poultry market where I think they're, they're bleeding it out through the, through the neck, which, you know, not chopping
+
+[49:32] its head off. Well, I mean, every every time I've been to the live poultry market. What they do is they take, especially big birds, they tie them by the feet and let them hang upside down alive,
+
+[49:41] flapping, freaked out to figure out how much they weigh. Then they take the bird, you know, put it down, chop its head off and go. I mean, that's pretty much that's, you know, that's how, and I think that's pretty much, you know, the d-rigur method of doing it. Like, uh, and so, yeah, they're not doing any. I mean, at least the places I've been. you know, I didn't see any electro stunning equipment. put it that way. Um, you know, whereas I think it probably commercially electro stunning is
+
+[50:08] the is the way to go on uh, on, on chicken slaughter. Did you see any electro stunning where you were? I don't think that they do that at the at the live poultry joints. You know, this place, I think it was, I got the head on too. So it was Chinese style, but I think they do all, they, much of their business is halal, so I don't know the details of halal slaughter, but it seemed to be that that, that a lot of their meat was default halal, unless, you know, you had some special method, just because so much of their customer base
+
+[50:34] was where, were, were people seeking halal meat. So that would, and I think that's that, that, that is bleeding, bleeding it out to the neck. So, which sounds especially cruel. I think about it. Well, yeah, so if Halal, I mean, I've never done as much as I should research on Halal techniques, but my memory serves, kosher slaughter techniques would dictate that the animal is conscious, right? to prove that it's all intact and everything, and then humanely slaughtered with a quick slice to the throat, which would mean that there is no stunning
+
+[51:04] involved, because that would compromise the animal prior to the slaughter. So, my guess would be that, yeah, there's no form of stunning involved there. Yeah, and then finally, I was just, with, with Chinese fish, let me see, fresh killed chicken, and I think some Korean restaurants are, you know, they're advertising this too. Do you think that that is, is, is pre-rigger flesh that they can actually, because, uh, apparently the place that I went to, which is in Bensonhurst, supplies one of the places in Midtown, but I was just thinking that, you know, the,
+
+[51:37] it, it sets within, it's within several hours, right? So you, you, you, that texture, actually a chicken and rigor, or is it pre-rigger, or do you have any idea? No, I mean, that would be super interesting, right? Just get the get the chicken, rush home and cook it right away. Uh, you know, get, you know, the, the interesting one would be to go in the morning, get a chicken. right? Put it in your fridge, uh, go in the evening, get the chicken, rush home,
+
+[52:05] you know, and then do one maybe the day before, 2 days before, and then like cook them all 3 at the same
+
+[52:10] time, side by side in the same oven and test them out. That be fascinating. Yeah, yeah. I might try that because now I'm curious, especially with salting as well, because there's, there's, there's some way, I feel like the texture might change pretty radically by, you know, different, different times and different uh, salting just in that, you know,
+
+[52:27] 2012 to, you know, 48 hours if you, if you, you did 12 hour intervals. Yeah, well, if you do it, please, you know, write right into us or, you know, uh, let us know what's going on because this is the kind of information that uh, we crave. Okay, yeah, I'll certainly do it. I'll let you know. Thanks very much. All right, thank you. Peter Cook wrote in at cooking issues. What are your favorite uses for fish sauce and are there any good substitutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring? I like fish sauce in almost everything. Sty? you a fish sauce fan? Yeah, I love myself some fish sauce. So, I mean, let's say you have some, it's just delicious. I mean, soups, delicious with fish sauce. Um, I don't mean, I, you know, it's one of those things that I would add to many things. Like let's say someone doesn't eat meat, but they eat fish, right? Fish sauce. I put fish sauce and everything. I also like anchovies a lot. I will throw anchovies into almost almost anything. I really like salty fish flavored things. So it's like hard for me to say. You know, it's hard for me to say what my favorite is because I just like them so much. Now, what I would recommend you do with fish sauce is there's no such thing as
+
+[53:38] one as one fish sauce. Like my favorite brand that you can get kind of around is Tipuros. I like that one a lot. I think that one's Thailand. But, um, go out and source yourself some like really interesting fish sauces, uh, like, um, Ishiri from, uh, Japan. Um, it's not really fish sauce, but go get some colatura anyway from Italy. That's good. You like that stuff? Like the anchovy juice. Yeah, it's good. So, I don't know. Now, any good sociutes for alcohol when deglazing and or flavoring. Now, nothing adds alcohol flavor quite like alcohol does, but for deglazing, really, you don't have to use alcohol, in fact, a lot of
+
+[54:16] times, the only real thing you need to have for a deglazing liquid is that it can't have so many solids in it that it scorches on the
+
+[54:24] pan. You're using it to break the solids off the pan and then reduce. So anything that's flavorful that's not going to scorch during the time that you're deglazing, you can
+
+[54:34] use it. And often you're deglazing with, you know, with water or, you know, if you're making, you know, gravy or something, something else. But the reason you add the alcohol, 1st when you deglaze, is so that you have more opportunity to cook the alcohol out before you add the bulk of your liquid.
+
+[54:49] I mean, I think that's the reason why people add alcohol 1st and I think glazing, not because it needs to be alcoholic. In other words, I don't think they're using the properties of the alcohol to dissolve the stuff on the bottom of the
+
+[54:58] pan, if that makes sense. Does that make sense, Dennis? Okay. Uh, this is a great name because I can't pronounce it. It's G with O, with an O, umlaut, R-A-N. So I'm going to call it Gurin. Eldon, Gurin. What do you think? Gurin. I going to go with Gurin. Cooking issues. I often use canola oil for frying, good or bad? Many people use a lot of olive oil. Isn't that a bad choice for hot applications? All right. Uh, current, here's the deal. Olive oil is not bad for hot applications. However, you aren't getting any awesome taste benefit if you heat the olive oil too much. We talked about this a while, I think, maybe like a year ago or 6 months ago, where we did a bunch. Someone called in and we talked to McGee about it. We did some side-by-side taste tests of eggs cooked in in olive oil. And Mark Ladner was here that day. Yeah. And we were tasting eggs. Remember? We tasting eggs. And it turns out that it's fine. Cooking with olive oil is fine, but, you know, all the awesome fruity notes and kind of the varietal characteristics and all the things you love about the taste of olive oil are wiped out by the cooking.
+
+[55:58] It's not bad from a technical standpoint. Now, um... Anyway. So that's that. Now the other problem is, is that a lot of olive oils will degrade quickly if you're frying. And so they're not a good choice for frying long term, or if you're frying a lot of stuff, or if you're going to have a lot of particles sitting around in it, because depending on which kind you get and what's going on. The smoke point can lower faster than some other whales. All right? Now, as were the canola oil is good or bad, I used to hate canola oil, hated it, hated it, really hated
+
+[56:28] it. Like in the 90s, like I hated it so much because the stuff that you would buy that was cheap just hadn't been properly deodorized. And so it tasted wretched, awful. But the canola oils that I've tried recently, and it took me many years to, after I had done some initial frying tests with canola oil in the 90s. It took me many, many years. I took the early 90s too. like 92, you know, 92, 93. It took me many years to go try canola oil. In fact, for, you know, a decade or so, I was like, hell with canola oil, crap on it. don't care. It could be the healthiest thing on earth. It could save my life. I'm not going to use it for frying. And then I tried it again. You know, sometime in the 2000s and I think they fixed that problem. The average deodorization of the canola oil is fine. Now, canola oil, canola is not a plant. Canola is a contraction, I think, of Canada and oil because it was originally developed up there from a variety of rape
+
+[57:21] seed. Talk about a crap name for a product. Rape seed is from the mustard family. And so they developed a variety of rape seed that had, was particularly low in, uh, I don't even know how to pronounce it, but
+
+[57:33] like, rustic or, but the, the, the stuff that, that, that they, the, unsaturated fatty acid that's
+
+[57:40] in, uh, mustard oil, which, if you have it in large quantities, some people say it's bad for you, which is why you can't get the real deal mustard oil here in the
+
+[57:47] US easily, unless it's labeled not for consumption, even though the studies are crap.
+
+[57:52] So anyway, so people are worried about that, but the canola oil that's out there has very low, less than 2% of that fatty acid in
+
+[57:57] it. And so there's nothing out there that shows that that is a health problem. There's some studies I couldn't read them because my internet was crapping out on me that the, uh, that, that certain transpoofas, that's an awesome transpoofa,
+
+[58:10] polyunsaturated, fatty asses, transpoofas are formed during the deodorization process. That I can't attest to because unfortunately I couldn't get to the data with my internet this morning.
+
+[58:20] But I don't have anything out there that says that um, that I believe that I trust that says that the stuff is uh, bad for you uh, in any sense. And I know a lot of people say it's good for you. I don't believe that either, but I can say that I no longer believe that it tastes like
+
+[58:37] crap and it's probably good for frying because I believe the smoke point is fairly high. On the way out, because they're going to kick me out of here. I forgot last week to give a shout out to Mei May in Boston, Mei May food truck, and I guess I don't know whether the kitchen, the non-food truck thing is open yet, but they came to the talk that we
+
+[58:54] gave. You know, the whole crew came to the talk that we gave with McGee. And then, you know, I want to spend some time with them afterwards talking to them. And, you know, I set off the freaking fire
+
+[59:04] alarm. And so we got cleared out of the building and you guys gave me a set of
+
+[59:09] pastries. You said, this is the best pastry in all of all of Boston, and it got lost in the shuffle. So I didn't eat the pastry. It's horrible, but I did get from those guys, 2 bottles of liquor from Boston, and I really appreciate bringing kind of Boston, you know, Boston local products for me to taste when I'm in Boston or
+
+[59:28] in Cambridge in this case. Although you didn't bring any of your own stuff. So next time I go up there, I want to try your own stuff, but they did bring 2 things. Grand 10, which is in Boston, distilling, Grand 10 distilling, Angelica liqueur, which is like an Angelica liqueur made in Boston, which we enjoyed. We might work that into a cocktail. you like, did you try that one to us? Yeah, it's good. And and this is what I'm going to go out on. Bully Boy Rum, which is Boston Rum. And for those of you that don't know, Boston,
+
+[59:55] Medford, actually, specifically, you know, if you're into the whole Medford thing, known back in the day, pre-prohibition for being a center of rum
+
+[1:00:03] distillation since before the American Revolution. In fact, Paul Revere famously, as he's riding down the, uh, you know, trying to warn, you know, I guess that the British were coming, although that's a bunch of hokum, there's actually, you know, Revere,
+
+[1:00:17] like got his horse taken from him, like, you know, like when he was in, I think Lexington, got his horse taken from
+
+[1:00:22] them, and ended up sitting the rest of the night out, and it was another dude that uh, that didn't get caught, you know, that escaped with his horse. They kept on riding out. The real freaking hero of the day. Paul Revere, you know, got caught, and yet they write the poem about Paul Revere because I can't even remember the other guy's name, but apparently, you know, not so good for poetry. So Revere gets all the props, right? But anyway, so on the way out to get captured by the British and not really
+
+[1:00:47] warn very many people because he got captured, you know, fairly early on in the thing. He, uh, so I'm going to get some crap about that. I know I am. He takes famously takes a swill of Medford rum, which was supposedly pretty good. And, um, and you read about this in Wayne Curtis's book on rum. Uh, and they reenact that to this day, people will ride fake ride past there and they'll take a swig of rum, but no longer from Medford. And I'm hoping that the Medford Ride people are now using the Bully Boy rum. We enjoy it. Now, one last thing about Medford and Boston and Rum, the Boston
+
+[1:01:17] rum was produced from Molasses, because guess what they can't grow in Boston. You guessed it. Sugar cane. They can't grow it. So they would take the molasses and they would ship it up there. And so there were lots of stockpiles of molasses in Boston prior to prohibition. And just prior to prohibition, one of my favorite history, crazy facts happened. The great molasses flood in the north end of Boston in 1919 just prior to prohibition, even though it wasn't actually for rum that it was, it was for industrial alcohol. So in 1919, a giant tank. Like, imagine, you know, those giant tanks of fuel that you see in Elizabeth, New Jersey, as you're driving down the turnpike, those big kind of fuel tank stars, you know what I'm talking
+
+[1:01:55] about? Imagine it filled with molasses. All of a sudden, these people on the street and there's like an elevated train. theres horses, there's all this, 1919. They hear ping, ping, ping, boop, and all of a sudden, a 15 foot high wall of molasses running 35 mile an hour, right?
+
+[1:02:11] exerting a pressure, according to one thing I read, of 2 tons per square foot, right? And just smacks into you. It knocked down like railroad cars, like horses just got in molasses and like a bunch of people died. A bunch of horses died and a bunch of people died. Uh, and can you imagine anything worse? You're drowning in molasses. You get SmackDown tackled by molasses and then you drown in molasses in Boston. And the story was that for decades, even into the
+
+[1:02:39] 70s, when I was a kid, which was when I 1st read about it in Smithsonian magazine, I can remember to this day, reading about it because one of my great aunts from Medford, you know,
+
+[1:02:46] my stepfather had these like 3 maiden aunts who never got married and they were born. Anyway. So I was like, they remembered it. They remembered it. And into the 70s, the streets of Boston, when it got hot out, still smelled like molasses in the area where the flood
+
+[1:03:01] was, cooking issues.
+
+[1:03:10] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio...
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by mood magazine, a new international quarterly publication about music and food. For more information, visit moodmusicfood.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues this day, Marm. Your host of cooking is just coming to you live on Tuesday, every Tuesday at 12. Well, no, we weren't here last week because we were embarrassing ourselves at Star Chefs.
+
+[0:40] Boom. Anyway, today we're here at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, with Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, and as usual, Stas Hammer Lopez here in the studio. How you guys doing? Good. I just told Nastasia I ran into Indie Jesus in the street. What did you say? say, hey, Indy, Jesus. I didn't call him that. I said, hey Dante. Oh, no. You didn't like have a glass of water and try to turn it into wine, anything awesome like that? Next time. next time. He's not here anymore, though. He left? He's gone. Let's get you on his craft. All right, all right. So listen, today, we have a very special, are they both going to be on or just one? Oh, sweet. Sweet. We have, uh, we have the, the, you know,
+
+[1:22] I, what do you call it? The, the, the unique group ideas in food. Akikamazala and Alex Talbot, you know, the kind of like the, how do you call them, the OG
+
+[1:35] new tech food folk on the, on the, on the line on the internet, and they're, they're today have released a new book called Maximum Flavor, Maximum. Recipes that will change the way you cook. Uh, and if you go and order that thing right now, Today's the 1st day, you can have a shiny, fresh copy on your doorstep tomorrow, or if you still live in a place where there are real bookstores, you could probably go buy
+
+[2:00] it right now. Welcome, guys. What going on? What's going with you? Yeah, it's good to chat. Yeah, so why don't you guys, uh, you know, oh, by the way, you can call in your questions too, uh, the ideas in food crew or us if you have any questions, you know, for, for us schlumpy folks over here. Uh, 2718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Before we start with some of the questions. I'm going to, actually, one of them references you, so I'll hit you with that later. But, um, why don't you tell us a little bit about the book? I mean, one thing I noticed when I looked at this book, as opposed to the 1st book, is this is a full color extravaganza of a book. Novel idea, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So why don't you talk about talk about it for a minute? Oh, okay. We decided that we needed to have photographs in this book because every time anyone
+
+[2:47] opened the other book. They looked at us and went, where are the pictures? Yeah. People are safe. People are so visual, the weasels, the weasels. Well, what's really interesting, you know, from, uh, I guess from an outside perspective is that for, um, you know, for many years, your blog was known for, you know,
+
+[3:05] having being very photo heavy, having a lot of photos. I guess it probably just was a surprise to people to see something come out that wasn't that way.
+
+[3:11] Do you know what I'm saying? Certainly I mean, the 1st book, the 1st book is really a handbook for the kitchen. Um, and without pictures, people are, you know, we're looking for, you know, what's it supposed to look like? Am I on the right path? Uh, and I think that's probably the big, the biggest hiccup we came across with ideas and food,
+
+[3:32] uh, the book. Uh, so this one we we wanted to uh, face that front on and and photograph the bejesus out of it. And there was supposed to be only 75 pictures in
+
+[3:41] it and I think we have probably double that. Yeah, it really helps tell the story. And it's like, you know, it's all all big color splashy stuff. I leaf through it. It looks great. I didn't get a chance to read it because I saw you right before my ill-fated Star
+
+[3:55] Chefs demonstration, which is where we, you know, where the cooking issues crew was last
+
+[4:00] week, instead of doing our real job of being here on the radio, we were at Star Chefs, having things not go our way. Uh, but, uh, you know, uh, that aside, I got to flip through it. It looks great. I can't wait to get hold of a copy, but it's true. I looked at it this morning on Amazon. And are you guys pro-amazon or anti-amazon? Do not want to come out for or against on the, you know, in public. Yeah, well, no, we, we used to live in Colorado in the mountains in the middle of nowhere, and we could not have gotten any books there if it were not for Amazon.
+
+[4:33] So while we are pro indie bookstores, we are also pro Amazon. sometimes you just can't get things any other way. All right, and then you want to give a pitch for, like, if they already own the 1st book, like, you know, why should they go get this? It's all new, all different, correct? All new, all different. totally at all. You know, the 1st book, as we said, was one that it is, is the housing wise. It is the, it is, you know, the, the, the, the reference material that you'll need and then recipes that support it. Whereas this is recipes that you really want to eat. There's a lot of information jammed into each one. And then, it's erupt things to, uh, to really then extrapolate from. So, you know, it's great jumping off and then it's also just a great eating point. And for people, you know, who aren't necessarily super tech or equipment savvy, although I guess, you know, a lot of people who listen here are,
+
+[5:28] like there's still going to be a lot in for them, correct? There's fun. In fact. The whole point of this. As we talk over each other. The whole point of this book is we had a lot of fun with it and the science is still there, but it's almost hidden. So it's kind of scattered through the recipes and it's in the head notes and it's layered more into stories as opposed to the 1st book where the science was kind of front and center, and the recipes were behind that, where we were more
+
+[5:52] about like, really, really delicious food and then explaining how we did it. Sweet. Well, secondly. I can't wait to get a copy of it. I'm sure it's going to do well. Why don't we answer some questions for the folks. We get writing questions beforehand. I have a little bit of an advantage over you guys that I got the questions this morning. So, you know, I had a chance to look at it, but, you know, with that said, we'll all go for it here, okay? So, uh, Aaron will writes in. He said, recently we've been making shrimp stock at our restaurant, scratch. And we've noticed that. Unfortunately, when we let the stock come to a full boil, a stable form of foam would form, and it would boil over vigorously. This obviously has never happened to a fish poultry or land mammal stock that
+
+[6:32] I have ever made before. And this leads me to hypothesize that there is some sort of stabilizer in the shrimp meat or shells that would cause this foam to
+
+[6:39] form. If there is, could there be a way to use this in an advantageous manner to suit the needs of somebody or some entity? Also, I never got to thank you for giving us a shout out on the show a while back. Can't wait to get some Mofag gear and represent Aaron Will. Well, I mean, I'll just put my ¢2 in really quickly. One thing I need to know beforehand on the foaming. I mean, as you guys, as anyone knows, if you cook whole crustaceans, especially things like lobsters, they foam like demons. And I... Yeah, right. Yeah, come. I mean, it's my presumption, right? So I would assume that you wouldn't get that much foaming for if you were buying headless shrimp. Do you know what I mean? But if you were buying whole body shrimp, I would assume that you could get some decent foaming out of it, because there's lots of, um, I'm reminded of a very old, uh, like, uh, dual language Chinese American cookbook that I
+
+[7:28] have that one of the recipes uh, calls for, like, foaming egg whites by hand and then putting it in front of the cooked crab on the plate, and it's, and it's called for crab spittle effect,
+
+[7:40] an English translation, crab spittle effect. And so, you know, it's, right? I mean, it's well known that there's all kinds of protonaceous crap that, you know, sea creatures produce, especially crustaceans. In fact, when you have, you know, animals that produce waste, nitrogenous products constantly in aquarium tanks, you have protein skimmers to remove them because otherwise, and the way that they work is by foaming the protein stuff that's there.
+
+[8:04] So my guess is, is that there's some sort of protein crap there that comes out. The only other guess I have is that some of that, you know, that shrimp shells are made of a product called chitin, which is one of the most common biopolymers in the world.
+
+[8:17] And it's, um, it's a nitrogen containing, um, kind
+
+[8:21] of polysaccharide like saying, uh, that, you know, I use the broken down form of it called
+
+[8:27] kitasan for, um, for clarification and other things, but that stuff
+
+[8:31] foams. So maybe you're getting some of that too. You guys ever had any issue with this stock or anything to say on crustacean stocks? Uh, I mean, whole shrimp shells, stock, certainly foam, same with lobster, but we do everything now in the pressure
+
+[8:47] cooker. So, for the most part, we're not getting any of that boil. Uh, and and we're doing it, you know, again, real fast to concentrate the flavor. And again, the fresh cooker keeps the foam, I would say, at bay. Right. I mean, you know, the thing also, as opposed to shrimp. Let's just, I mean, it's not on the, not on topic, really, but shrimp as opposed to lobsters. So I think, you know, one of the common problems with a, I mean, shrimp shell, there's like, look, an American, like a shrimp shell that we get from a farmed shrimp, like, even if you cook the hell out of it, like, there's only so much crap that's there, right? If you're just using the shell and not the head and all that stuff. In terms of, I mean, it's so paper thin usually, and there's not much. I don't really find a lot of problems, not foaming problems, taste problems, but I do find,
+
+[9:31] I'm curious about pressure cooking since I haven't pressure cooked this one. If you were to pressure cook like a hard shell lobster, you know how when you overcook a lobster stock to make a bisque, it
+
+[9:41] gets, the only thing, I don't really know what it is because I've never analyzed it, but what I consider to be kind of like a
+
+[9:45] shell taste, almost like a calcium-y taste to it. You ever notice that? It's funny you mention that. We haven't gotten it that way because all we use is the heads. any of the other shell. So we just take the insides. Oh, yeah, there you go. Because when you when you make when you're doing like, you know, an oil infusion or if you're making a stock like from straight shells on lobster, like it's like good,
+
+[10:08] good, up, you roast them, right? And then you cook them up to a and then when you over extract them, you're like, this crap's done. You know what I mean? It's like... Yeah, it tastes like shells. Well, I mean, if you're making a shell oil, it's great, but if you're making lobster oil, you probably just want to use the, you know, the
+
+[10:24] head part. Yeah, yeah. So back to your question, Aaron. They're well known that there are proteins in there. Try the pressure cooker. Do you guys believe my story that your pressure cooker should invent or no? I still believe it. Very, very wholeheartedly. You don't want to vent. Why would you vent it? No, no, I mean, in other words, like, I believe that the pressure cookers that constantly vent to regulate their pressure, produce a lower quality stock than ones like the
+
+[10:48] coon recon that don't, even though I just had terrible experience with a coon recon exploding in my kitchen. It was frigging nightmare. Really? You haven't explode? Well, here's what happens. There's a, you know how like, you know how I'm lazy? Yeah, you know me. I lazy. So, like, you know, the gas gets deteriorate over time, because they're silicon, they deteriorate. And so, you know, it's my personal pressure cooker. I brought into work because I needed to do something. And, you know, every day, I'm like, oh, I'll replace the gaskets, I'll replace it. you know, next time I'll replace it next time, next time. And there's a little, there's a little secondary pressure relief on the top of the pen next to the valve. And the silicone there wasn't stealing properly. So it was always spitting out a little steam. So Piper, who works with me, is like, hey, David, steaming. Don, you say the ruins the flavor of this stuff? all right. So I go over there to start fiddling with it, right? And then, and then I'm trying to set the damn thing. So I think maybe there's like some grit in it or something. So I'm trying to set it. I take a butter knife, the back end of a butter knife, and I go, pap,
+
+[11:49] pap, pap on the top of the thing to seal it, and I blew it through the lid of the of the thing. Now this sucker was full, 3 quarters full of rendering, like, full chicken with the fat in it and
+
+[11:59] everything, stock at 15 psi. Like, I'm talking, like, like, 5 liters of chicken, 6 liters of chicken stock at 15 psi, and I all of a
+
+[12:10] sudden I punch a quarter inch hole through it, and it was like old faithful.
+
+[12:14] It was like a freaking geyser. It flies up, hits the ceiling, chicken fat, like everywhere,
+
+[12:20] and, you know, Piper runs up. He's gonna put a towel over him like Piper, man. That's like, you know, that's like whatever. urinating in the ocean to raise the tide. like you're we're done here. And like, so we just have to sit there for a minute watching the damn pressure cooker vent chicken fat and chicken stock all
+
+[12:35] over the entire lab coated with a fine mist of chicken products.
+
+[12:40] My dog loved it. The dog thought it was fantastic. I have since replaced the gaskets. So anyway, okay. Uh, next... So it wasn't the pressure because it failed. was more of a user error. Yeah, I'd have to go say, I'd have to go user error with that. Uh yeah. I mean, 1st of all, like, you know, just note to Bene out there, you know, regularly replace the rubber parts in your in your pressure cooker because they do lose their ability to seal over
+
+[13:09] time. This is, you know, this is not the 1st time I've had issues like this. You know, the main gasket around the rim. I'm always late in replacing that one. And modern pressure cookers have a safety override where if you look at the lid of a modern pressure cooker, there
+
+[13:24] are gaps cut into it. And the reason those are there is so that if you build up too much pressure, it will literally extrude the main ceiling gas get out of these
+
+[13:34] holes and then vent out of the thing. But if you don't replace your gasket, they just extrude under normal 15 PSI pressures. You know, as Bell Ray is back, you know, at Star Chefs, when he was doing that stuff, I've vented twice in one day, coffee, pressure cooking, coffee, rye beans, rye berries, all over his chef
+
+[13:53] whites twice because I didn't replace the freaking gasket. Yeah, a little too much information for the folks out there. All right, next question. Johnny writes in about fermentation and about beans. And I don't really have an answer for the bean, so I'm hoping you will. He goes, thanks for the egg advice, a few shows back. Cracking them on a flat surface. Jacques Papin style has reduced the amount of shell in my scrambled eggs. I now have some questions about lacto fermenting vegetables and fruit. lately I been getting some really kick-ass results. Well,
+
+[14:23] kick butt will say kick butt results with simple countertop, countertop ferments. I did some experimenting and found that even crappy, low quality flavorless tomatoes, both canned and fresh, become delicious with some bubbling on the
+
+[14:34] counter, fermenting bubbling. Also, pureed chilies with a bit of salt left of ferment, turn into dynamite hot sauce. That's true. And my underwhelming sauerkraut taste, delicious, fried up with some potatoes. Although there's no reason for sauerkraut to be underwhelming. sauerkraut's inherently delicious. anyway. Question, is there an inherently safe slash putrefaction preventing minimum salt
+
+[14:53] prevent percentage for lacto fermenting fruit and vegetables, assuming a normal in quotes water content in the amount of fruit or veg?
+
+[15:01] I've been eyeballing the salt and nothing, you know, instead of measuring, presumably. I been eyeballing the salt and nothing's turned out inedible, but I would like to be more consistent so I can get repeatable results.
+
+[15:10] I've also tried fermenting fresh corn and it ends up really sour. This is a known fact, by the way, sour. Anyway, not so sure what ingredients or dishes. It'd be good with or attitude. Any ideas? Do you have any favorite lacto ferments? Well, sauerkraut, actually, literally is mine, but boring as that is. Can you use them like stocks? Can you use them like stock or does the acidity totally change? How do you think about using them as an ingredient? All right, so, um, I'm going to, I mean, it's long. complicated, but I'm going to let you weigh in. The corn, by the way, I, you know, right now, when anyone asks me a fermentation question, I literally just pick up my
+
+[15:44] copy of the art of fermentation by Sandor Cats and just see what, because the research in that is so thorough that, you know, I just, there's no reason to reinvent the wheels sometimes. I just
+
+[15:55] go, because I'm sure he's researched it. And in fact, he found, I don't know her personally, but April McGregor has a website called Farmer's Daughter, and she doesn't sell those on the website, but she sells fermented
+
+[16:08] corn in her stand in North Carolina, and she's like, yeah, they get really sour.
+
+[16:13] Presumably you're using sweet corn. Sweet corn has a lot of sugar. It will ferment very quickly and make very sour results. But as for salt, you know, and I'm going to let you guys weigh in here because people ask me this all the
+
+[16:25] time and I always say the same thing. You can do ferments without salt. The problem is they're not they're not going to be consistent and the short answer is... Well, yeah, I mean, look, like, you know, McGee was telling me that there's these crazy amaranth ferments in China that smell
+
+[16:42] like the worst smell in the world, where people, you know, eat it without dying. You know? My feeling is, is that, you know, if it gets sour, you're probably safe. And if it doesn't get sour, you're probably not going to want to eat it because some crazy stuff's going to be growing in there. Um, you know, you guys, any, any, any thoughts there? On this on the salt free sermon? Yeah, go ahead. So, so, I mean, I'll kick in on. I mean, you don't need salt and again, that's referencing 11 sand or cats as well. But the salt, the salt is certainly the, the flavoring agent. So we wanted there to help peak everything. Fermentation certainly, we found fermented foods just taste better. You're developing flavors and the ingredients are broken down to release more aromatics. So, you know, anything fermented is good for the most part. Anything rancid, that's a whole other story. Um, adult levels? It ranges. I mean, what is it? I think we've seen as low as one. but we usually have our salt brines. And at way-based brines or something like that, roughly around what, 5%, I think. Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty, that's pretty standard. Like, you know, uh, not, not, but, you know, all these things are crazy. It's like some people they they write in and they take into account their theoretical water base for their veg and some
+
+[18:03] don't. The fact of the matter is, is I think only if you are going to do the same thing a lot, right? Like let's say you were going to make uh, 55 gallons of uh, sour pickles, right? Well, then it behooves you. I'm just going to do that at home. Right, right, exactly. But I'm saying, but if you're going to do it, then it behooves you to get the stuff right. You know what I mean? And get something to measure salinity and figure out exactly what's going on and measure the water where you
+
+[18:27] can. But in, you know, in reality, at home, I think, you know, eyeballing it in general is okay.
+
+[18:34] You know what I mean? I mean, like anyone that's listening to this show, unless you have a very, unless you have a specific dietary restriction, right, knows that I believe that salt is
+
+[18:45] not, is not harmful to people that it's not harmful to, right? So you should probably put the salt level, where it tastes good to you. Like, that's my feeling. What do you guys think about this? I would agree with that. I think that it depends on how long you want to keep your pickles too. If you're going to eat them in, you know, relatively quickly, then you don't have to worry as much about the bacteria levels. And I also think that with pickle making, it's usually pretty obvious when things have gone wrong. And I think actually Sandor says that in his 1st book that, you know, if it smells bad, if it looks bad, don't eat it, start over again.
+
+[19:18] But, you know, pickles are, it's, it's, it's clear when things have gone awry, things start growing and things get soft and
+
+[19:26] mushy and as long as your texture's good and your flavor's good, you're, you're good to go. Mm, soft and lushy. All right. His his 2nd question is... that was our biggest problem for the longest. As long as you're underneath the brine. Well, that's why, like, you know, that's why the, like, the easiest way to do it if you don't,
+
+[19:44] if, you know, is to just back the crap down and then put it inside of a 2nd
+
+[19:47] a backbag in case it blows and tie the 2nd bag down. You know what I mean? It's like, boom, sucker's insto submerged. Uh, you know, that's, you know, it's like such an easy way to get, if you have a vac machine. It's such an easy way to get high quality. I've never tried it just in zipping without a VAC, but I'm sure it would work. But the zip bags will blow once it starts fermenting is the only problem. You know, a good vacuum, actually, interestingly, a not so good vacuum bag that has slight gas permit, you know,
+
+[20:16] um, it can diffuse a slight amount of gas through it. They don't below. I've never really had one. I've had them turn into really tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight pillows, but I've never had one explode on me. And the good news about that too is you get that nice little kind of petillon from the CO2 that can't leave. You ever do that? Do you like doing it in backpags? We actually don't. You don't let... jars, weights, boom, done. You don't like the vet? I know, I don't like the bubbles. Oh, I love the bubbles. You know, I like anything carbonated. If you know me, I like... any damn thing. Carbonate any damn thing. especially kimchi. I love kimchi with some carbonation in it. You have to like kimchi. You hate that? I love that. I hate that. I chop it all up so the bubbles dissipate. Really? So you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like putting throwing a vacuum down on it to pull any CO2 out of it right before service. You're like, pull the CO2N. All you have to do is slice it up because, you know, once you slice it up, it evaporates
+
+[21:16] naturally, but... So yeah, no, I'm not a fan. Wow. interesting point of difference. And this just goes to show, this is why it's good to make your own crap because then, you know, if you like
+
+[21:26] it to bubbles, you can make it to bubbles. you don't, you don't. But if you do make them, you can always get rid of them. That's true. That true. So Johnny's 2nd question. Sometimes I cook dried beans, and despite an overnight soak and long, all capital, so it must be very long cook time, several hours, I cannot get them to finish cooking with a soft interior.
+
+[21:44] Now here's the kicker. I don't add salt or acid. Just cooking them at a boil and then add a simmer in water. I got them from a popular green market vendor that seems like they have a high turnover, so it's not like a five-year-old bean. Could the beans be so old that they just won't cook all the way through or am I just doing it wrong? I don't have a pressure cooker and would that solve it? That's an interesting question. I don't know what would cause them to stay hard if you're not adding any acid to it. Yeah, that's weird. No, I mean, all we need is C week. Combo. Yeah. You put a piece of combo in your beans. It helps tenderize, yeah. Yeah? What's the ag? There's, no, I don't have it in front of me, but there's actually an enzyme in the kombu that softens the skin of the beans and helps them absorb water
+
+[22:27] more, more easily. So you put it in during the soak. You can put it in during the soap soak and leave it in during the cooking time or if you have like grease soap cuisines or you can always just put it in during the cooking time. Like, you know, a 2 inch square for every cup of dried beans. Exactly in the book. Yeah, nice. Go buy the book, buy the book. But, you know, my only question, you know, um, the one thing I don't know where Johnny lives or what his water quality is like. I mean, most typically. that could have something to do with it. Right. Oh, yeah. If he lives in Plano, Texas, he's toast. Why? What's the pH of water in Plano? No, the calcium in the water down there. Oh, they have a lot of. Yeah, super hard water, if you have calcium, will strengthen the pectin, and you're done. You're done You're done. That's got to be it. It's got to be the water he's using. It's always the water. Yeah. So, you know, that's right. Yeah. Super hard water. We were doing a demonstration down there a number of years ago. And we were making a pectin bath and didn't account for the calcium in the water because we didn't know about it. The stuff instantly gelled. And it wasn't even sequestrable. You couldn't even hit it with shimmp? No, I, we did afterwards, but at 1st we didn't even, didn't even, didn't cross our mind
+
+[23:35] to sequester the, and then... Yeah. And then we... Johnny, I'm going to go ahead here and say that we've discovered your problem. You have hard water and you're going to want to use a water softener or get like a gallon jug of spring
+
+[23:51] water or something like that. You think we got it? Or or a sodium hexometophosphate. Yes, that would be another solution is to sequester your bean water, although I've
+
+[24:02] never, that's interesting. It might be the 1st time any human being has ever said I'm going to sequester my bean water. I have not done that yet, but I might have to try that now. What, to go next time you're in Plano, you're going to go get some water and add some shrimp to it to cook beans. All right. All right, sweet. Should we take a commercial break and then come back? We're going to come back right back with ideas and food, cooking issues.
+
+[24:29] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit
+
+[24:46] heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[25:22] What's mood? Mood is a quarterly magazine about music and food. For its creators, not many things can beat a good record and a delicious meal. Maybe a well written story or a gorgeous photo. Well, that's all in mood. The magazine looks at music and food in a cohesive and unique
+
+[25:43] way, with a keen eye to design and high quality writing. Its contributors are located around the globe, and the stories span accordingly. Check it out today at moodmusicfood.com. That's moodmusicfood.com. And welcome back. So what is moot? Just kidding. I'm just messing with you, Jack. Anyway, uh, so, uh, we're back with ideas and food. You still have time to call any questions. 2718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. So the folks at Meme Street Kitchen, uh, who we met when we uh, or whom we met, we went up to Harvard, uh, wrote in a question. I think they must have sent it before, but I just got it. They said, hello from the crew at Main Street Kitchen. We are so amped up from watching Dave, burn up a bunch of rice at the Harvard lecture. I, when I last time I puffed in a lecture. I shouldn't do this lecture wise anymore. We, uh, for those, you know, we, we had an issue and we cleared out a science building at Harvard,
+
+[26:40] uh, but it did make a big explosion, which was, which was nice. Anyway, we are so amped up from watching Dave burn up a bunch of rice at the Harvard lecture that we had to write and say how much we love you
+
+[26:49] guys. It was very pleasant. The bar, the podcast, the blog, everything. was so fun to see you in action in person, especially Nastasia sitting in the corner like a boss. And honestly, we couldn't think of a better end of the night than watching Dave set off the fire alarm
+
+[27:00] in a cloud of black brown smoke and subsequently getting Harold McGee to sign our books while sitting on the lawn like a friendly and wise
+
+[27:06] woodland creature. Seriously, we think of burnt rice and it's great. I've never heard of McGee described as a woodland creature before. Woodling creature. I don't have to talk to him about that. So they have a question from 2 of their cooks, Emily and Caden, and the question is, it started when we
+
+[27:25] try to figure out if the, and this is one where they reference you guys specifically. So I'm going to let you guys just take this sucker and run. You ready? Because they're referencing something that one of your techniques. Okay. Emily Emily and Caden's question. It all started when we tried to figure out if the air in a fridge is wet or dry, and if a thing placed in that fridge will dry out or absorb moisture. We had a peanut brittle on the menu at the time and we were trying to decide whether we should keep it in the fridge to avoid it melting, it gets hot on a food truck in
+
+[27:51] August, or leave it out to avoid it absorbing moisture and becoming horribly disgusting and gummy.
+
+[27:55] We noted that if you're drying out the skin of something that you want to crisp, you can put it in the fridge, like Dave Chang does, in
+
+[28:01] the Momo fried chicken recipe, or Heston does, in his home cooked version of triple cooked chips, it's
+
+[28:06] French fries for real people. I'm kidding, British people, you know, whatever, we call them French fries. Other things that you put in the fridge, so they absorb moisture. Other things you put in the fridge, so they absorb moisture, like on the ideas in food blog, Aki and
+
+[28:19] Alex rehydrate, dehydrated beets by putting them in the fridge. What gives? So now we're thinking about the relative humidity versus absolute humidity. I don't know what those things mean, but my staff does. And whether we should be thinking of the fridge as an open system or a closed system. I don't even know what our question is anymore, but maybe you can just... Maybe you can just wax poetic about humidity and refrigerators and Lil like for as long as you deem appropriate, all the best, and thanks again for coming to Boston, Irene and Max, and Caden and Emily and
+
+[28:47] Alex, Kalen and Olivia and Peter. Okay. So why don't you guys talk about that for a minute? Alright. Okay. So the, the, the, the, the... So we, we, we, we, we pressure cooked the beets till they're, they're cooked the bejesus. then we dehydrate them until they concentrate and develop a nice dark skin. Then we take them while they're still warm. We actually, there's a missing point there. We put them into zip top bags. Well, the warm ceiling in the zip top bags and then throw them in the fridge. So they steam in the bag in the in the environment. So, there's where you're moisture. So you're just reequilibrating, really. You're just re-equilibating. Exactly. Yeah. So one of the issues with all, with all food cookery that involves surface
+
+[29:33] phenomenon. So that's frying, uh, panning, grilling, uh, par dehydrating,
+
+[29:42] anything is that uh, you develop uh, a situation where the inside, typically, the inside of the food has a much higher moisture content than the outside of the food,
+
+[29:53] right? And so sometimes, and you know, I don't really, you know, the inside out of your technique, you know,
+
+[29:59] you tell me about, tell me about, but the, sometimes you can form a skin, that skin
+
+[30:03] is, can be then permanent because the cells have collapsed, but you can get moisture back so that they can equilibrate so that the texture changes back to something that you like just by letting the moisture come in from the
+
+[30:13] outside. Correct or no? Bingo. Yeah. The, uh, typically, and this can be a very good thing for this kind of a technique. Very bad thing with fried chicken. Horrible with fried chicken. But, you know, a lot of what cooking is,
+
+[30:28] especially, if you want things to last for a while after they're cooked, is moisture control and moisture migration from the center of a product to the outside of a
+
+[30:38] product, and much time is thought about that, especially on the pro level, this is why people add so much to their tempura. This is why tempura is actually not a good product. This is why it actually is bad. Like, tempura. I've had like some of the supposedly best tempura chefs in the world make tempura and I've eaten
+
+[30:55] it and it was, it wasn't bad. I mean, it wasn't bad, and that's that's very, that's hyperbolic, but it's not as awesome as it could be because it's, it's, um, the, the,
+
+[31:05] the, the moisture balance is shafted. I mean, if you eat it directly as it comes out, you know, yeah, it's good, but I don't know. I don't think I ever prefer it and it can't last the way that it's made. What do you guys think on tempura? Well, but they like to soak it in sauce. So it's sort of the combination of the crunchy and also the soggy. Yeah. It's not really only about the crisp. It wasn't a question about peanut brittle? Oh, no, so what they're saying is, is that they have a situation where, where, uh, look, where they put stuff in the fridge and they're having, uh, they want to know whether the, the, the environment in a fridge is adding
+
+[31:39] is, is adding moisture to or moving moisture from things. So you put it in a Ziploc bag. So it's moisture neutral, but it adds moisture to the skin by re-equilibrating. In general, fridges are a, um, a de- what? Yeah. Yeah, freezers dehydrate, right? And fridges, you get a lot of recondensation of crap on them. You know, I, because the thing is, like, I think if you, it depends on the fan speed, like, in, in,
+
+[32:04] in some of the pro fridges I've used that have a fan speed that's too high on the circulation, you can get a real
+
+[32:10] pellicle on the outside. I think a lot, I think a lot depends on a lot. You know what I mean? Well, it depends on the ingredient too, I think, because if you're, you know, if you put chicken thighs on a rack, they're going to dry out a little bit. The surface is going to dry out, no matter the fridge, but if you throw peanut brittle in the fridge, the sugar's going to absorb all the moisture in the air. Right. Well, you know, that's even like in the sealed, this is why, like, you're never supposed to store coffee and and chocolate and what this in the fridge, several reasons, but to me, the reason isn't necessarily that the sucker's going to get moist while it's in the fridge, it's that as soon as you pull it out, you're going to get condensation from the air and you're
+
+[32:46] toasted unless you live in Arizona. You know what I mean? So, yes. What? No, that makes that makes all the sense in the world. No, no, but again, you know, you know, peanut brittle. Yeah. I would, I would use desiccant in a, in, in a closed container at, you know, room temperature, right? in the in the truck. No, 100%. Yeah, desk against the way to go or vac sealed. You know what I mean? Vac sealed in a hard container or, you know, vac sealed in a in mason jars if you don't have access to a hard container that can hold a vacuum. Hey, here's another one for you on refrigerators and moisture content. If some, some, uh, of the hardcore, in fact, I think all the hardcore Japanese sushi chefs, I only
+
+[33:26] talked to one of them, you know, when he was years ago when he came to the SCI, uh, those guys all have commercial refrigerators and then they've never plugged them in, not one time. They just throw giant block of ice into the bottom of the fridge and then keep their fish in
+
+[33:43] there because they want to maintain the temperature, but they don't want the air circulation to mess with the water content at the surface.
+
+[33:49] Presumably, I guess they don't want it to, I would say, in a case of fish, with very high moisture product, you know, they want to drown. And by the way, you know, now that we're talking about it, you're talking about peanut brittle, which has a moisture content below probably
+
+[34:02] 6%, right? Like once it's cooked up, when you say it's like below 6 and a fish, which has a content probably above 80 or around 80. You know what I mean? 75, 80. So, you know, if the fridge is anywhere in between those things, it's gonna shaft both of them. That is true, but peanut butter, brittle crusted fish is tasty. Yeah? I've never tried it. For real? No, we did it years ago. You made like a peanut brittle and put it on hamachi and then baked it in place. Sponge peanut brittle. And does it does it form like a little snappy, like, you know, like crocante thing on the outside? Yeah, not quite as croconti as you'd want, but you'd get that the nice texture, the peanut brittle, the
+
+[34:43] 2nd you know, the caramelized the 2nd time. You get the nice toasty nuts and then we smoke peanut brittle. So anything smoke tastes better. Smoked peanuts are in fact delicious. And while we're on the subject of peanuts, I just want to give a shout out to the Virginia peanut. Virginia Peanut, and you know, I don't get anything from the Virginia Peanut people. But if you've never, Virginia Peanut, by the way, it's a variety. It's a type of peanut. And there's people from, you know, North Carolina and South Carolina will tell you that the Virginia peanuts that are grown there are just as good, if not better, than the ones grown in Virginia. However, it is called a Virginia peanut. That all I'm going to say about that. But Virginia Peanuts, you guys play with Virginia Peanuts at all? No, we have not that I know of. You need to go buy yourself a high quality batch of Virginia peanuts because once you have a Virginia peanut, you're like, I can't believe I've been eating this other Drek, no offense planters, I can't believe I've been eating this other Drek for so long, Virginia peanut is just a superior
+
+[35:40] product, taste, texture. You know how like a really good Frankfurter has that snap when you bite into it and you're like, damn, that's what a good Frankfurter tastes like. You know what I'm saying? As soon as you bite into one of these giant Virginia peanuts, a good one that's properly roasted and everything,
+
+[35:54] it's like pop. It snaps. It's so awesome. Virginia peanuts. Smoke those up. Yeah, get some Virginia peanuts. I got an easy one here for you. Uh, Mike, uh, Shezheski. By the way, Mike, thank you for phonetically writing out your name. At 1st I thought it was like some strange name that I can, he's, oh, he's helping me with the phonetics because he writes,
+
+[36:11] cha-chev ski. Mike Chevsky writes in about ham hocks. Hello, everyone. Question about cooking ham hocks. I usually braise in a typical mirepoise slash water stuff. Uh, my ham hock so that the meat gets tender enough that I can pick it off the bone and shred it. However, I find that much of the smoky, salty pork flavor is too often leached into the breezing liquid. Do you have a recommended cooking method, which will render the meat tender, but not rob it of its characteristic, smoke and flavor? Thanks, Mike Stichesski. Yes, put that sucker in a bag and cook it. Um, You know, you might want to add a little bit of liquid because it takes an unbelievably long time to render out collagen if there's not a little bit of excess
+
+[36:54] moisture in with the product. But it does not take much. Pressure steam it, actually. So it'll be the fastest way. Oh yeah, that's true. So they put it, uh, the Hawks can do, you know, a bowl inside your brush
+
+[37:09] cooker, and then, and do it, then do it that way, you'll have them in 45 minutes, you'll have perfectly broken down, tear the Jesus out of them, and you go from
+
+[37:17] there. But they'd be salty. I mean, they will be salty. Yeah, but if you're going to shred it and use it as an ingredient, it doesn't matter. You know what I'm saying? Do you remember when they used to sell, hunt? I'm dating myself here, but they used to sell those plastic dogs full of seasonings and you would like stick your pork chops and some liquid in them and tie the bag shut and bake them
+
+[37:36] in there. Is that like, is that like shake and bake? Is like some sort of shake and bake variant? The same time, a shake and bake, but it wasn't because it was sort of like this brace and the bag would puff up in the oven and it would just... That sounds fun. Well, you know, when I when I was a kid, you know how like every 20 years or so there's a renaissance of paper bag
+
+[37:55] cooking? Yeah, and I have paperback cookbooks that date back to like the teens. Um, you know, Alexis Sawyer, the famous uh, English uh, chef, well, French English chef who wrote the gastronomic regenerator in the 1800s and was kind of like, you know, extremely
+
+[38:11] well-known MFK Fisher loved his stuff. His grandson, I think it's in the teens, wrote a book on paper bag cooking that I own. So that comes back. So the only bag stuff I used to do is we used to do I used to do paper bag chicken like once a week, like that was my jam. When I was a kid in the 70s. Like, that was like, you know, once a week, like, I would handle dinner and I would bust out the paper bag chicken, you know, complete with, you know, all the 70s crap you
+
+[38:34] had. I would rub it with the butter like you're supposed to, and put the, you know, crappy, you know, curry powder from
+
+[38:40] the from the Grand Union on top of it, and shove that sucker in a paper bag and go, you know? That was my stuff back then. and brownies. No one messes with my brownies man. Those are the things I cooked when I was a kid. When are you going to make brownies? Well, here's the problem. Now that I'm older and I think more about it, it's like, you know, what kind of brownie do you want? Do you want the dense brownie? Are you dense or a fluff? Right. Dense, chewy. I like chewy. Okay, are you a cocoa powder or a chocolate brownie? I'm a mix. I used to hate cocoa powder. I was a full chocolate brownie because that was my great grandma, my grandma's recipe was a chocolate brownie. And then I like cocoa. Yeah, right. I learned later about the cocoa brownie. I don't like 100% cocoa brownie because the texture is always weird to me on 100% cocoa brownie. I guess I could just add more fat, whatever. I don't know. So now I do a mix. anyway. So you like the robo inclusion, actually, into the brownie. You like what? A rolo inclusion. Rollo, the rollo, the brownies before you bake them. I have not heard the word or thought about rollos in decades. Rollos. Do they still make rollers? They sure do. We do damage rollers in this house. All right, listen, listen. Stas is a candy aficionado. What are your thoughts on rollos? Yeah? Pro? You're pro rolo? Oh my god, ideas in food have found something that Nastasia enjoys, the Rolo. I might have to go out. Okay, do you like the do you like frozen candy? Remember the Charleston chew that you used to freeze those suckers? shatter it. Have you powdered Charleston Chew with nitrogen? No. Wouldn't that be awesome? I would be good. Well, now I'm thinking about rollos. Would roll those be good frozen? Yeah, they are good. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, well, you know, that's why that's why you can go to the dentist and get new ones. That's what Stas does all the time. She like put put for dentist through kids through college every day. The dentist can have a new kid every day and put it through college the way it does, gives the person money. Anyway. So, we have another question. By the way, thanks for that pressure cooker tip. don't know why the hell I didn't think of that. We were just talking about pressure cookers and everything. I didn't think of pressure cooker. This is why it's useful to have guests on the program. You know what I'm saying? I can write nothing. What? Anyway. So we have another question in. Nick, who's writing in from Seoul Korea, has a couple of questions, a couple of statements, and then a question about Halumi. I actually like Halumi, but, you know, in my neighborhood. Well, we'll talk about a second. Okay, thanks for addressing my tofu questions a couple of weeks ago. The tofu soup, which you suddenly developed a hankering for, is
+
+[41:08] Sundubu G Guy. I cannot pronounce any words in any language, except for German, which
+
+[41:14] actually only Austrian German. Did I tell this story on the air? I went to Austria a little while ago. And I told I said the story on the air race? Anyway, yeah, so I can do Austrian accents because I listen to too many Arnold Schwarzenegger movies growing up. Anyway, uh, Dubu is a Korean iteration for what is known in the West as tofu, and uh,
+
+[41:32] J guys, umami rich soup, often made with feisty elements and served in boiling clay pots.
+
+[41:37] By the way, I love myself. The clay pots aren't my favorite. I love the Tolso, the stone bowls. I have 9 of them. I have 9 of them at my house. And they, like, if it wasn't for liability issues, every Applebee's or TGI Fridays in the US would be serving everything in these hot stone bowls because hot stone bowl, plus a little bit of oil, some rice, anything you have in your
+
+[41:59] fridge and an egg on top is delicious. Delicious. Um, I'm surprised that those things aren't. So is there a brand of hot stone balls that you like? Um, well, there, no, I've never had a, never seen a brand on them. I just, you know, I go... Yeah, it's going to... Yeah, you go in there and you buy them. There's there's there's 3 fundamental sizes and I have like some of each, like the big one
+
+[42:22] and, you know, I've only ever had one fail on me and it didn't 100% fail, but it's developed cracks.
+
+[42:27] I can still use it if I have to. But they develop an amazing kind of patina over time. Um, I, you know, my standard procedure, they're made of a rock, they may or may not contain this business, uh, that they call, I, I think like, serpentine or something like this. And, you know, you put it on your burner and literally I put it right on my burner and I just shoot it with an IR until it hits
+
+[42:50] 600, 615 Fahrenheit. Then I kill all the burners and just ladle a little oil into them, smack the rice in, and done. I mean, literally, like, if someone's, if like a bunch of people are coming over and, you know, I just need something to be good now. I do the quick cook on my rice cooker, 20 minutes out, while that's cooking, I blast out, like, you know, whatever I have in my fridge. I'll cut it up, make some sort of quick sauce, bang done. Like, everyone should own a set of the hot stone bowls, uh, in my opinion. Anyway, okay, so back to the question. Oh, but that technique with the burning rice doesn't work as well in the clay pots because the clay pots can't hold nearly as much energy as those stone bowls can.
+
+[43:29] Okay. You don't get the crust. No, no, not with rice. I mean, look, they're great. I like I have a couple of the clay pots too, but I thought I could get them because they're like a 3rd of the price or less of the stone.
+
+[43:40] And I thought that like I could get away doing, you know, the rice trick in the clay pot and it just wasn't the same.
+
+[43:46] So then I was like, well, I'll take the green pots, but then my guests can have the crunchy rice. I was like, you know, creep on it. I will just go buy more stone bowls. So that's what I've done. Okay. So then he adds, I've just landed Andrea and Wynn's book. Do you have that book on tofu? Is that good? Yes, that's a good book. Okay. And the book of tofu, the short leaf one, the famous short leaf one is en route. Once I get my basic tofu skill, tofu making skills down, I hope to experiment with mixing in some non-traditional flavors into the soy milk as well as working and some textural surprises. I also look forward to making tofu skins, which I've done. That is great. I, you know, I really, the amazing thing about making, um, you know, tofu skins, Yuba,
+
+[44:21] is the difference in the 1st couple skins and tasting them as they go down. I've never had to do it kind of on mask. I've never done it for an event. I just do it for myself at home, but like tasting the difference in the sheets as they come off. isn't that kind of like a fun, fun, awesome thing to do. You guys like that, right? That's awesome, no? I mean, there's no... We've messed with milkskins. don't sit around and make tofu skin. No? Stuff's good. Well, we haven't yet. Yeah, you should. You should do it. We will be shortly, apparently. You should do it. Like the 1st couple that come off are like a much darker color and they have a completely different flavor because of the 1st
+
+[44:59] stuff. I guess it settles up to the top and then they change as they as they go down and, you know, just like, you know, warm with some, you know, some sort of salty crap put over the top of them. They delicious. Okay, anyway. I also forward to making tofu skins, cut the way handmade soba, slice. They make wonderful gluten-free noodles. I thought about that. And I've never seen one chunk of tofu that's not stored in water here in Korea. I think every commercial, everywhere, every country people store it commercially in water. I just happen to like to not do that. I happen to make it right before I'm going to eat it, and then I just eat it without ever bleaching all of the stuff out with water. My guess here is folks like their tofu mild and subtle. I have another question for you today. That was just a statement. I have another question for you today. Can you explain the science behind grilling cheeses such as halloumi or finish and it's going to kill me? Lai Pai Justo? Uh, which I don't, I'm not familiar with that. I'm familiar with Halumi. And oh, you might not be familiar with this because if you don't live in an area that has lots of Latin markets. queso queso para Frier is a version of queso Blanco, which is firmer even in queso Blanco, and you can deep fry that sucker without a crust. It's even more kind of resilient than Halumi is. But anyway, what keeps them from melting with heated or would it be possible to achieve this non-melting property with other cheeses? Thanks, Nick. Um, So the main, the main thing about Halumi is that uh, they cook the ever-loving crap out of, uh, out of Halumi. And so a lot of the water is out of it when it's done, and then they salt the hell out of it. So I think that's the main function of the stabilization of Halumi, which I happen, you know, I like I like it a lot. But 1st they they do, um, after they make uh, the curve, the initial curve. So Halumi, I believe, is rented. That what I could get off of the internet. It's rented. And then they cut the curd into small pieces, like, you know, very fairly small pieces. And then they cook it, um, to like, uh, 90,
+
+[46:54] like in the 90s Celsius, and then uh, dump way on top. They heat the weight to pull the proteins out so they can make some ricotta-like thing. And then they heat it in this and press the crap out of it, like press the ever-loving crap out of it, heat it, and then put the blocks in salted
+
+[47:10] whey. So like all of those things are like hyperstabilizing the cheese and giving it that kind of rubbery texture. Whereas queso blanco, um, is acid coagulated, but then also acid coagulated very hot and then salted while it's hot, which means that it's going to be giving up a lot of its moisture.
+
+[47:26] And I think that that's basically all there is to it. I don't think there's any way to make an actual cheese unmeltable unless you've cooked the curds before you pressed it out. You guys ever made a cheese, okay, you could make a, you could do it with gels. Mozzarella noodles. Uh, right. You're using a, but you're, you're, what you did it with regular mozzarella? Why don't you describe the process? Yeah, so we puree mozzarella with a little bit of ricotta. And we had Activa. originally we started with YG, which gives it a nice cheesy note to it. again, that's the addition of the yeast extract to the YG. You can actually use TI. Uh, and then we, we spread it thin on acetate sheets, let it sit overnight, and then you can cut the noodles, and then you can boil them, uh, and you got these beautiful, again, you cut, you cut them like tag of the tails. We make mozzarella taglia tail. So it's just as stable as, uh, as like the gelatin, uh, the gelatin noodles are, the ones that are
+
+[48:20] uh, set with gelatin and, uh, TI? I would think so. Yeah. Again, you just, you've got the, they're, they're, they're, they're awesome. We got a nice little alente bite to them, but it tastes just like mozzarella. Uh, and then we did it with, we did it with feta too. and it made feta cubes. We made, you know, and and we're able to, you know, saute, you know, big chunks of feta, deep fry,
+
+[48:40] you know, deep fry them, stuff like that. So what they're talking about is an enzyme, transglutaminates, and translutaminates has the property that it covalently binds proteins together.
+
+[48:50] In this case, primarily. I'm assuming you're using whole milk ricotta, not the actual other stuff. So there's a lot of caseine present. And the caseine, in fact, caseine, the protein, caseine, from milk, is the protein that's added to
+
+[49:04] most the activa that is most used in the biz is Activa RM, which is just a combination of Activa, the or of
+
+[49:14] transplutamination, the enzyme, and of caseine, milk protein. So it's just caseine on casing action. It should, you said it does work with RM, right? It works only not as much. And we use YG. Right. It was the time for Roger applications, and then we, in a pinch, we did TI. TI works as well because again, we're pureing it in. So you don't need a protein bridge, like you'd have in RM or even in the YG. I'm super surprised that the RM doesn't work because it's just more casing. I wonder why No, but it doesn't work as well because there's half as much transcotaminating the guy. YG has a high level. T. Okay, so here's the deal. TI is, and I don't know if they still have a kosher app on it, because remember, you can't have a kosher RN because it's milk. And so they assume that it's milk protein. So they're assuming you're binding meat with it and you can't bind meat with milk. That would be a kosher no-no. But they made TI, which is just transcotaminates and maltodextrin. TI has a higher enzymatic activity per gram than RM does. But I did not know that YG also has a higher enzymatic activity. Yeah, it's it's a 100 parts per 1000000 as opposed to 50.
+
+[50:20] for the for the RM. And you don't want to double up on the RM because you start getting off blah blah or something or just then you... No, again, I don't think it even crossed our mind, really, is what it was. I mean, we still, we, so we stumbled across RM and we started, it started years
+
+[50:36] ago, if we wanted to make flowerless ricotta, duty, or gnocchi. Uh, and and we, we were, we're working with that and we, you know, called the folks at Achimoto and chatting with them and say, we're doing this. We're going to try it with RM and they're like, well, we've got this new product out there called YG. was designed for dairy applications, blah, blah, blah. I'm not very patient. So, they were going to send us to YG, but I already had some RM. So we started playing with it, and the RM sets up nicely, but the YG sets up a little bit more firmly, uh, and it has a, has
+
+[51:07] a, uh, a more, uh, a fuller flavor, and that full flavor is actually coming from the yeast
+
+[51:12] extract. That's also part of the YG formulation that was designed for the dairy applications. Cool. By the way, back to I don't recommend using RM, which is a caseine protein helper on gelatin. I find it doesn't set as well when you're doing the gelatin noodle trick with the
+
+[51:28] RM, presumably because you really just want to link gelatin to gelatin and not gelatin to caseine. I don't know if you guys have also had that experience. We have actually not gone deep into the gelatin noodle thing because I don't know why. I think we just, what we saw, it was done? It was 2 other hours. Right. So not Harold McGee. We have a question in for hard water, but William McGee at Los Neco writes and is listening and says, I live in Plano. Texas. Are there any, are there any times cooking or using hard water as beneficial? Sure, making making alkaline noodles? It can be helpful, right? Yeah, is there anything else? Cooking, cooking, cooking broccoli so it doesn't get mushy? I mean, like... What else? Yeah, I don't know much. I got nothing. Yeah. I mean, but unless you're just encapsulating things and you're just dropping things right into it. Right. I mean, most hard water is probably fairly basic, right? So it may be good for, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I know it's alkaline and hard water that was the original well water used to make the noodles that were then substituted later for
+
+[52:40] console. But I don't really know the pH of the water in Plano. I don't know. So it might not even be helpful for the noodles, because the noodles isn't a calcium thing. The noodles is really a pH thing. So probably just stopping broccoli from getting mushy or something like that, right? Anyway. Um, Oh, Aaron Will wrote in, saying whole shrimp was used. We have induction only, so not a huge problem. Just curious. I'll push for a pressure cooker for many reasons, especially after, you know, hearing the other tips about ham hocks and whatnot. Uh, I got uh, nostalgia giving the snacks, max, max, smack up. Here's, I got some questions I know that these guys are going to want, answered. Chris McDaniel writes in. Any ideas for making caviar in quotes, i.e. that, I guess the fake caviar with oakre seeds. You guys ever done anything with okre seeds? I guess maybe making them using the mucilage format? Interesting. Yeah I have not. We've never done it. I mean, I would imagine that you would soak it. The way you, I mean, I wonder if you can take dried okra seeds and soak them, the way you soak like basil seeds or something like that. Oh, and get them to puff up, get them to hydrate and puff up like that? Get them to hydrate and give them a different flavor and kind of, you know, or like mustard seeds. You make a, but I think you'd probably have to start with dried seats to start, you know, because how are you going
+
+[53:55] to? That's interesting. We'll have play with that. Yeah, yeah, we'll give it a. The okra seeds, they, they, uh, I mean, we've played around. I mean, if you look at them years ago, we kind of kind of oak her up and looked at it and looks just like caviar. So you can kind of cook a stew of fresh ochre seeds. They get a little slimy and stuff like that. Again, it's just the, what kind of flavor do you want? Any way to kill the slime? I exclusively eat okra, either fried whole or pickled. I never use it as a thickener. I'm not a big slime master. That's big on the sand. I could have saw when I saw you were in that t-shirt. The slimemaster? Well, a different kind of slime. Xanthan. I like, you know, yeah, hand me some Xanthan. snot up any any sauce you got, I'll turn it to snot 2 seconds with Xanthen. my speciality. Oh my goodness. Jonathan Panterman writes in, can you suggest a good stirred cocktail using blueberry for a large group, perhaps mostly advanced prep? Any tips? welcome. Stir cocktail? Almost always, you're going to want to clarify them. So hopefully you have an ability to clarify blueberry juice,
+
+[54:53] blueberries are usually fairly low on bricks and acids. So you're going to need to do probably a pre-chill on it unless you dope it with so much sugar that you can use it as a simple syrup, but then you're not
+
+[55:03] going to have as much blueberry flavor in the finished product. We used to do one with Mezcal, lemon, and I think it was lemon, Mezcal, lemon, and blueberry. and a couple other things called malinche that was good. But you guys ever done a stir with blueberry? No, we've done No, we've had muddled, muddled with blueberry, which is, you know, like a blueberry mash, so we've already been marinated up. Yeah. Another problem you're going to have with blueberries is, I hope you're not trying to get that dark blue color because sucker's going to turn purple as soon as you go
+
+[55:34] acid, and you're going to go acid because the blueberries already contain their own acid. But, you know, I would try. I mean, that's what we used to do a lighter mezcal mixed with tequila, blueberry, a little bit of sugar to augment because the bricks isn't so high on that.
+
+[55:49] And that's, it stirs very well, but it requires you to have a centrifuge. Otherwise, you could crush muddle strain. Um, But, you know, in a third cocktail, The big thing is you don't want it to be a soupy mess. You want it to be nice and clear. Okay. Also, uh, Christian Spinella wrote in, have you guys been following, uh, you know, they're going to rip rip me off the air in a minute, but you know, you guys are familiar with
+
+[56:15] the uh, with the controversy over uh, Carragin and uh, acid, right? You guys been, I get bothered about this quite a bit. You know, so for those of you listening out there, there was some research, uh, and it's, it's been around a long time that you don't want to, uh, use
+
+[56:31] Carraginans in high acid systems that are heated, uh, for a long time.
+
+[56:36] And the reason being that the kerogenans can be degraded and that degraded kerogenan may be may cause may have some carcinogenic potential over time and may be an irritant stomach.
+
+[56:47] It called degraded care gain. There a more technical term, but I don't forget it. And then there's this group called cornucopia something that's been putting out all of these scientific papers. I have a link to it, which you can, you know, look on the tweets and tweet it to me, uh, that, you know, there's a new kind of pushout against
+
+[57:05] Carragin and that you shouldn't use Carragin. And let me just say this. The work that was being put out there is kind of the worst kind of scientific bunk. I haven't had the time to figure out whether or not their actual points are right
+
+[57:19] or wrong, but the method of presentation is leads me to believe that the stuff is wrong. They, for instance, use as scientific evidence that someone said, I stopped eating care,
+
+[57:31] Regina, and then I stopped having the defauding problems. You know, things like that. You know, so kind of like post hoc, ergopropter hoc arguments for the efficacy of removing
+
+[57:40] carraginum from your diet. And they focus almost exclusively on the research of a certain Dr. Tobacman who has had an axe to grind on
+
+[57:51] Carraginen for a long, long, long, long time. And I think, you know, one of the things is that science is really, really, like real science, not like, you know, like, you know, you know, what we, you know,
+
+[58:01] what we, the people who are talking here, we use the results of science and, you know, we're voracious. I'm talking for you now. Sorry, voracious like consumers of this sort of thing. But actual science is a lot different. And, you know, it's extremely hard work and it's a lot of boring, boring, boring, boring, keeping track of notes and
+
+[58:21] really putting in the time to get your results right. And the key thing to being a really good scientist is to not start with
+
+[58:29] the feeling that your conclusions, what your hypothesis is correct. You really have to test your hypothesis. And all of the work that Dr. Tobachman has done that I've seen has led me to believe that she is completely colored by her, her, her, her, her mind is completely colored by her preconceived
+
+[58:48] notions, that Kerogenan is this, you know, evil thing. And let us not forget that most of the carragina we eat, we eat an extremely small quantities. In fact, that is the reason Carragin is used in dairy applications, just because it can be used in extremely small quantities.
+
+[59:03] Have you guys been following this sort of thing or heard any like recent anti-karagan and rumblings? And by the way, it could be the worst thing in the world. I just, I haven't had a chance to back it up. I just can say that the writing about it is poorly done and is done in a junk science way. Why don't you, why don't you guys have the last word on Carraginen? And before you do it, I'm going to thank you for coming. I really enjoyed having you. I hope you have you again. I know the book is going to do extremely well. Go out and buy it, everyone. Now. Your last words on Kerogenan. Last words on Kerogen, and before I give that tomorrow, we will actually be in New York City at the 92nd Street Y at 7 o'clock with a cooking demo. So, and book signing. So if people want to join us, they can come see us in person. Where do they get tickets? Tickets are on the YMTA's website, 92nd Street, why? All right, so go to the go to 92nd Street, wide. Shell out, shell out. What does it cost for them to go see it? 25 bucks. I think it's $25. 25 times. it costs to go to a movie in popcorn now, please. Go to the 92nd Street freaking Y, you know, and go see these guys tomorrow. Okay, now, Kyragina. Carraginan. We just started seeing the rumblings of it. The funny thing is, is kerogen and an acid really, they don't get along at all. So, I guess that's my, my, my biggest question there is, is, is, why, why are they
+
+[1:00:16] mixing it? They aren't very often together. Right. But yeah, but well, the point the point is the only time it could ever really be an issue, if you, you know, if the, if the degraded
+
+[1:00:25] carraginan argument is right, is if you tried to make a high asset system with a boatload of
+
+[1:00:29] carragin, and the only way to do that would be to overload it with carragin, and so the carragin doesn't get obliterated by the acid, which you would never. You're eating way too much carragin in anyway. Right, which you would never do. Which you would never do. Right. You know, and there are other argument is that, you know, that the kerragin can get degraded in your stomach to become degraded
+
+[1:00:49] kerraginen is bunk because there's, you know, a very limited transit time and and,
+
+[1:00:55] and you need a certain amount of heat in order for the degradation to take place. You're not getting acid hydrolysis of carrogene and at body temperature, but in the transit time that it's in your
+
+[1:01:05] stomach. But, you know, that's, that, that don't, that's just me reading the scientific literature. Don't take it to mean anything. You know what I mean? So when you dive deep into this one, please let us know what the answer is. All right, cool. Cool. All right, thanks so much. been a good time. cooking issues. been a pleasure. Thank you. All righty. talk to you soon. All right, cool, bye-bye. Bye.
+
+[1:01:35] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:01:43] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:18] Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Brutus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. As always, Nastasia to Hammer Lopez, joining me in the studio. How you doing? And Jack and Joe and the engineering, Booth, how are you guys doing? We're doing well Yeah? Nice. So listen, how many, how much longer do we have to go on the, uh, on the Kickstarter
+
+[0:53] there, on the Hasset Kickstarter, the underground, uh, Collectives, uh... right back to you. Yeah, let's figure that out because remember, what they're trying to do here with is Kickstarter and is to create a HASIP plan. Now, not a haset plan for restaurants, although you could use it at a restaurant, but not just for restaurants, which is a much simpler thing, but a verified haset, um, verified haset plan for doing cured meats, and verified means that the protocol has been tested and verified by an independent lab and accepted such that anyone could use this haset plan for, um, uh, rating themselves to do, uh, you know, USDA
+
+[1:34] approved, uh, curing of meats. And it's very expensive process, normally, 10s of 1000s of dollars. And what they're doing is they're going to pay for theirs, but then make it available for everyone to use on, you know, everyone to
+
+[1:47] use, and therefore kind of an open source has a plan, which is a fantastical, it's a good idea. So either Jack or Joe is going to get back to us with how they're doing. What do you got? It's passed. successfully raised its goal 3 months ago. Three days ago. Sorry. Three days. How much longer do you still have to give them money? 0 seconds. Oh, man. Yeah, 3 days ago is an, uh, so they raised just, just shy of 50,000 uh, for their $40,000 goal. So congratulations. All right. congratulations to them, and I'm sorry we didn't get to pump it once more, but I'm glad they made
+
+[2:18] it. Yeah? Yeah. I missed it. I was kind of contributing. I missed it. crap All right, we have some questions in. Call your questions, two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Had a good time last week with the ideas in food, people, huh? Yeah, they were good. Yeah. What are we doing today? Why don't we tell them what our day is like today? What are we gonna do? Pizza. Yeah, we're going to have a pizza. I'm thinking we're going to get the Roberta's greens related pizza, right? But I really meant more in terms of the Martha Stewart event. bar meeting. Okay, yes, we're having a bar meeting. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's what I think people. It's called American made. It honors American made products. Yeah? it's kind of cool. It's in Grand Central. So we're doing a cocktail. as usual. And we're using a particular apple called a Wickson. It's called a Wickson crab apple, even though I don't believe it's actually a crab apple. I believe it's a regular domestic apple. I'll have to look that up. Maybe you guys looked that up for me. Wickson, Apple. But it's very small, which is why it's called a crab. I believe it's originally from California, hence American made, not just grown in America, but a real American apple, except for... Yeah, but which is unusual, actually. Most of the Apple varieties that, you know, the old or it's not that old that this one, but a lot of the famous Apple varieties are, you know, you know, all, you know, apologies to folks from Washington and the Pacific
+
+[3:37] Northwest who think they grow, you know, all the great apples, but most of the great Apple varieties come from the
+
+[3:42] east coast and the north. And uh, but Wickson is a fantastic little apple because it has a very, very high sugar content and a very, very
+
+[3:51] high, um, acid content. What that means, it's extremely friendly for cocktails. So, you know, much so you can use, like much less of it, have a much higher flavor profile. Another Apple that does that that's not American is the Ashmeads kernel, which I hope to get very soon. You're going to get some from John Riper. Yeah? Ashmeet's Colonel from Out West? Whoa. I've never had an Ashmeet's Colonel from Out West. I had them from England. I've had them from New York. I've had them from New Hampshire, but I've never had them from, uh, all right, so we'll try a
+
+[4:19] Western Ashmeats kernel. Ashmeet's Colonel was discovered sometime in the 1st decade of the 1700s in England.
+
+[4:25] Also, a very high sugar and acid at Apple, and just really just a real, both the Wickson, Wickson also has, not just high ass and sugar, but a very nice flavor, kind of spicy. It makes a light light, light, light pink juice. That's really pretty. Ashmeath's kernel makes a yellow juice because it's not a red fleshed apple, a red skinned apple, and just a fantastic juice. So we'll use that in a little bit. But the drink we're making with wixen today is we're taking, well, today we're using michters, and we're making a similar drink tomorrow with maker's mark, but whiskey. Is the Mickter's the rye or the bourbon that we're using? Bourbon. So bourbon in both cases. And where the problem with mixing a fantastic apple, like Wixon. Wicks and Crabapple. The problem with mixing it with straight whiskey. And then also the problem that if you're going to carbonate it, which we are. The problem is that the oak, all of the oak extractives in the whiskey, really dried, roughshod over the top of the Apple variety, and it don't
+
+[5:20] marry well, and it just becomes a big, confusing mess, or
+
+[5:25] cordle you, as my son Booker puts it. He calls any kind of mess, accordle you, after the, I don't know, I don't want to get into it. anyway. So the, uh, so what we do is we have to strip out some of that. Oh, and we put it through a process we call de tanning. And the way we do it, is we add various charged, um, charged uh, ingredients to the uh, to
+
+[5:46] the, to the thing that agglomerate some of that oak and then we filter it out. The easiest one and the one we're doing for this is we take kitasan. Uh, kitasan is, uh, now my brain's erased. Kitusan is positively charged, I think, hydrocoloid, uh, derived from, usually from shrimp shells, although within the next couple of years, we'll have fungally available
+
+[6:03] kitusans. I always forget which one's positive, which one negative is my brain's gone. Anyway, so we add we add some of that to the bourbon. We shake it up. sit around a while. Now here's the trick. We want to suck out the kitasan and also suck out the tannins and the oak extractives that are bound to the
+
+[6:23] kitasan. So I don't want to add something that is that dissolves. I want to add instead something that just swells a little bit, but has a high surface area. So I add high acyl gel in, that's calcol gel F, which is a hydrocoloid that is oppositely charged from kitasan, but won't dissolve in the
+
+[6:42] liquor, and you just add it and shake it and it turns milky, and you keep shaking it and you shake it over the course of a couple of hours, 3 or 4 times. And when that stuff settles out, you don't even need a centrifuge. You just pour the stuff off and you have whiskey that has been had some of the kind of harshness of it removed. And I have more aggressive techniques that use gelatin but they're extremely aggressive. Like it comes out, you know, you know, too neutral for my taste. We then take that, we mix it with Wickson, a little bit of water, carbonate it, and why not, right? Yeah? It's good, right? It's a good product. Anyway, that's what we're making today for, it's not called Taste of Martha. What's it called? American made. American made? Yeah, Taste of Martha. How many drinks we making for that thing? 8 bottles worth of Victor's bourbon, so... Yeah, this is... Yeah, what is this? This is the opening party. What's the opening party for the? some sort of festival or awards or some crap, right? Do we see awards party? Do we know anyone that's winning awards? No, we don't. It's all like little, small, mom and pop vendors. We don't know any of those. I feel like we should know all of this. I saw a quilt maker when I was up there. I don't know. don't anything about quilts. you know anything about quilts? My mom quilts. I hate it. Strong. Okay. Got one in from Zach in Pittsburgh. Hey, Zach. Howians do it? How are you? I like that. How you doing? What's the deal with canned black olives? Why are they terrible? How come we live in a time when every grocery store has an olive bar with decent oil and
+
+[8:07] salt cured olives? Many restaurants continue to put these black balls of disgusting on their salads? I like how it's black, just a black ball of disgusting. It's not even an olive, not a black ball of disgusting olives, a black ball of disgusting. Zach, you're forgetting the sliced disks of disgusting. that go on top of the nachos. How do we defeat the canned black olive menace? Thanks, Zach, in Pittsburgh. So 1st of all, I've never, I literally have never spoken to Nastasia about, uh, Nastasia,
+
+[8:38] about uh, this olive uh, style, and since she is from California, land of the California uh,
+
+[8:43] style, olives. So what are your thoughts on canned black California? I really don't like them, but I had them on pizza on Saturdays? so I can eat them? You can eat them, but you... Have you always not liked them? Yeah? You like olives. So you're not one of these people that just doesn't like olives. Yes. Yeah. Right. Well, for those of you, like them? Uh, okay. Okay, listen, don't anyone get angry at me. They, they, they're, they're bad product, right? They're not a good product, okay? let's just put it that way I don't mind them. You know what I mean? It's like, here's my feeling. And Zach, stick with me here. Don't like switch off the radio and run screaming. If you think about them as if they were an olive, then they're horrible. You know what I mean? It's a horrible thing. You know what I mean? If all you're thinking about it is kind of like a squidgy, somewhat
+
+[9:37] oily, black texture blobule, right? then I'd say it's better than a lot of the, uh, you know, hydrocolloid tricks that people pull, and it's just, it's just like a little textural thing. It has like a slight flavor. Um, and so I find them theoretically offensive, right? And I, in most applications, I would rather have real olive, you know, but I don't, I don't think that
+
+[10:05] they're, I don't think that, Well, maybe they are an abomination that should be erased, but I don't mind them somehow. You know what I'm saying? What are they are they olives? Yeah, okay, so let's talk about how they're made. In fact, you can look up. Uh, there's a UC Davis put out... I love UC Davis. I freaking love UC Davis. They put out a technical bulletin called Olives,
+
+[10:28] safe methods for home pickling that you can get a PDF of. There's also an online PDF available called California Alice Processing the Crop that goes through the technical literature on how to make California style black owles. But should you be a moron enough to want to make California style black olives with the olives that come off of your tree in your
+
+[10:47] backyard? You see Davis tells you how to do it, which I freaking love, right? They also tell you how to make real olives. So they deal with all olives when they come off the tree. Uh, is they're very high in a substance, and I can't pronounce it. Everyone who listens knows that I can't pronounce it a damn thing, is oleuropean, which is extremely bitter compound that's in olives that is water soluble.
+
+[11:11] So the trick of all curing techniques, right, is to leach out or get rid of a certain quality of that,
+
+[11:19] all European, right, to make the olives palatable. So in a salt cured olive, traditional old school salt cured olive, you just
+
+[11:27] take and pack the olives and salt, moisture leeches out as a result. The moisture carries with it, a large amount of the old European, and it drips down in the thing, and then, boop. And you have to wait a long time, right? Oil cured, uh, salt cured olives. Then you can rinse off the salt and pack them in oil, whatever you want. Uh, Brian curried olives, right? Typically, what you do even before you add the brine, you'll crack the olive so that, you know, because the skin is not so easy to penetrate. And then, uh, you'll put it in a water solution and the water will leach out the old European. So what they'll do is they'll change the water like once a day for, you know, depending on how much bitterness you want to extract, you want to leave some of it in, the more you
+
+[12:04] extract, kind of not only bitterness, but other flavors are gone. So you lose more flavor as you go, right? Then after you're done with that, you then can put it in a brine solution, a salt
+
+[12:14] solution, and do a straight fermentation of it, make kind of a delicious fermented olive, or if you're
+
+[12:20] puny, or if you like this, you can just add a vinegar solution to it, and that will prevent further
+
+[12:25] fermentation and you have more of a pickled olive, right? So those are kind of the things. Now, all of these things take time. And what do the California olive producers not want? To take time? They don't want to take time. So they have this genius, well, genius. This technology called lie processing. So they're using lie. It's another use of lie in the kitchen. So lie, uh, the, you know, the basic solution lie breaks down, uh,
+
+[12:49] the all European and makes it easy to extract. So once the lie gets in there, it wipes it out in a couple of days. They can go through the entire procedure, right? Instead of weeks. They can do the entire procedure from, you know, harvest
+
+[13:02] to, uh, in a can in like, in like 10 days, like 7 to 10 days, right? And here's here's how it works. First of all, uh, so they they don't have enough production facilities to um, to do olives, to do all the olives at harvest time. In fact, it doesn't make economic sense. They want to do harvesting throughout the year. So California olives, what happens is they're picked, and they're put in vats, but they're not even put in salt, brine vats anymore. They used to put them in salt brine vats to keep them static so that nothing happened to them. They didn't want them to ferment or change because it's not what they're looking for. They're not looking for fermenting and change. They're looking for a bland neutral California black olive. So what they do, and by the way, they're not picked black. They're picked at what's called the green ripe stage, which is ripe, but it's green. It hasn't turned black yet, even though olives will turn black on the tree. Black is purple. From anthosine, it's actually our good buddy, anthosine, or what's doing that. So anyhoo, so they're green and they're stored in this salt brown. People were like, well, look, you know, people are getting mad at us because we're dumping all this salt into the earth, right? It's bad. So they now literally just store it in giant vats, tons, like 20 ton
+
+[14:06] vats of a mix of lactic acid, acetic acid, which is vinegar, and
+
+[14:12] benzoate and sorbet to keep any sort of yeast or bacteria from
+
+[14:16] growing it. So it's in a preservative brine. Not even a brine, a preservative acid bath. And they can stay there for like a frigging year for long time. Although apparently, according to the processing the crop PDF, premium quality California olives are usually processed before July.
+
+[14:33] Now, remember, that's freaking July. So they're sitting in a static bath since, I don't know, when are they harvest? like November or whatever, around then, right? Okay. So you get them out of this brine thing, right? And then they put them, they used to do it as a processing. Now they just have kind of like automatic tanks that can do it, big automatic tanks that can do it. So you dump it a tank and you flush it with lie, right? Now, here's the trick. You need to give it like a bunch of different lie bass. You drain off the lie and you add more lie. Drain off the lie and add more lie. And in between, during that process, you're bubbling air through it, right? And it's the air added to the olives, along with the lie breaks stuff down, right? And makes more of the polyphynolic compounds in the olives available to kind of
+
+[15:16] agglomerate, and you add air, and the oxygen helps them oxidize, and that's what makes the black color. the olive is the air. So if you were to do a lie treatment with no air, right? Then you would not have a black olive. And in fact, the UC Davis document when you're making, if you should ever want to go home and make the California black olives yourself, what you do is you put the
+
+[15:33] lie in it and then you drain it and let it be exposed to air for a while, then add more
+
+[15:37] lie. B, b, b, b, b, b, b, b, b. So you keep lying it, and you cut them open and you look, and as soon as the lie hits the pit, you've
+
+[15:43] leached out enough of the oleuropine. It's much faster than it is. much faster than any of the other techniques, but it
+
+[15:48] also gets rid of almost all of the oleiropine. I mean it has almost no bitterness left. And as a side benefit, leeches out almost all the characteristic flavors of the olives. So you have tasteless paddle left, right now? Now it goes through a rinsing procedure to get rid of the, uh, to get rid of the lie. And they have accelerated mixing systems with air that blasts the stuff out. Now you got rid of the lie with water. They dump all that crap. Then, uh, they do a light brine solution, and they have to brine it. They have to get the brine solution, you know, up in increments. Otherwise. The olive will shrivel, and then they can that sucker at a high, high, high pressure. Oh, before canning, they add a little bit of, I forget what it is, but it's some sort of iron compound. And the iron compound is there to fix the black color so the black color doesn't fade or change over time.
+
+[16:34] So, uh, on the internet, they will falsely say that that, that, that the, uh, this ferric thing is added, so
+
+[16:42] that to make the black color, because they're not turning black naturally. That's not true. It's really just a preservative. Not that that's better, but I prefer accuracy to inaccurate statements. And so there you have your uh, California uh, black ripe olives. Nice. Nice. Let's go to a commercial break.
+
+[17:18] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, Tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back. How you doing? Good. Oh, I like I like that. It's like, it's like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you the lead in again. Be, be, be, be, be. Like, that actually was renamed Fishes Fishes vodka, right? the real name of the song. Well, yeah, I mean, it's very closely related to the vicious vicious vodka, the Amos Milburn cut, which we, you know, which we used to use. We got a caller, Dave. Got a collar? All right, caller. Call her on the air. Hello. Hi, Dave. Howdy. I have a question for you about natural pickles. Okay. I've done naturally fermented cucumbers with great success, but I just bought a bunch of uh,
+
+[18:57] bunch of different vegetables at the farmer's market and I want to naturally ferment them all. I was wondering if, uh, if you have any pointers for other kinds of vegetables, uh, what are good vegetables, what vegetables I shouldn't
+
+[19:11] do, is cooking vegetables going to screw up the process, can I do any fruits? Just anything you can uh, advise. Do you own the Sander Cats book, by the way? I've heard of it but I don't have it. Yeah, you should you should get it. It's worth the money on this stuff and I'll tell you why. Uh, he is gone through a, and even if you don't necessarily agree with uh, everything he says. He has gone through and tested a huge variety of
+
+[19:40] specific fruits and vegetables under specific curing regimens, right? Now, so I highly recommend that you go and even actually, you know, if you want to cheat, if you do the Amazon look inside. You can look inside and like find like various tips on various different things. The thing about cooking, um, vegetables or fruits beforehand, for instance, putting cucumbers in a hot bath, right? It, like a lot of what that's doing is trying to kill enzymes and bacteria in the, or D nature enzymes and kill
+
+[20:14] bacteria, in the product that might soften the vegetable before the pickling process is
+
+[20:20] complete or during the pickling process, right? So in cucumbers, you know, that's one of the reasons, you know, that they'll do a quick boil on them to do on the outside. And a lot of vegetables the same way. But like if you're doing something and you want it to stay extremely extremely crunchy, like raw crunchy, on something that's hard. Like, let's say a carrot, you don't want to do it so long that you have a problem. I don't really know if there's an advantage at all, frankly, to boiling a carrot before you pickle
+
+[20:47] it because I haven't tried. You know what I'm saying? But this is the kind of thing that sand or cats would probably be great on for, for, for looking up. The other thing, uh, when, you know, if you're dealing with something
+
+[20:58] has a tendency to soften, right? Then you can add some sort of positive, uh, you know,
+
+[21:07] uh, positively charged ion to it, like uh, calcium or something like this. And that's going to strengthen the pectin in the cell walls and, you know, let you have a crunchier product over time.
+
+[21:19] Um, like what vegetables do you have? I have carrots, Brussels sprouts, beets, onions, and
+
+[21:30] broccoli. Yeah, I mean, all that stuff should pickle should pickle well. I've never I've only ever done vinegar pickling onions, though. I dont know what I've traditionally pickled on. I'm sure it'd be delicious, but all of these things are, you know, well, actually, you know, you have onions inside of kimchi, which I've done a 1000000 times. But like, but these, um, These are all things that I, like, highly recommend that you,
+
+[21:52] you just go get his book or do the Amazon look inside because I don't know specific
+
+[21:59] recommendations, and there might be a particular trick for a particular vegetable that I would
+
+[22:05] miss, and why, why miss it when you can just look it up on his thing? Does that make sense or no? Yes. Uh, you mentioned calcium. What kind of calcium would you recommend? That's a good question. So, you know, calcium chloride tastes horrific, but you could use it
+
+[22:21] in small quantities. In fact, they add calcium chloride to canned tomatoes. That's why canned tomatoes don't break down when you cook them the same way that tomatoes break down when you cook them. And they're added usually at a low enough dosage rate that you, you know, you don't taste it with the rest of the stuff. Although, you know, I have a mental block about adding something that you know tastes horrific, but, you know, you could add a little bit of calcium chloride, or you could do a dip in pickling
+
+[22:55] lime, or add a small amount of pickling lime water, which is calcium hydroxide to it. That'll increase the calcium and make things more crunchy. That also has a flavor, but you know, you want to add kind of minute quantities. So it's calcium hydroxide, calcium chloride. And that's why it's called, by the way, pickling lime. You know, this, it's the same thing that's used in, um, in
+
+[23:15] Nixtamalization, um, which is known as kal when you're in Mexico, but it's all, it's all the same stuff or Thai red line paste, all the same product. It's calcium hydroxide, which is basic and very, very, very weakly soluble. So you could do a soak in in a pickling lime solution and then do pickling and that should firm it. Um, anything like that, calcium lactate, uh, calcium
+
+[23:36] lactate, glucinate is the least flavorful of the, or least disgusting of the calcium, but also the, um, also the, uh, hardest to dissolve and the most expensive carrots actually have a high amount of calcium.
+
+[23:48] The modernest cuisine guys told me once that the inside of a carrot, the little pithy part in the middle, extremely high in calcium. So, I mean, I don't know if any of this stuff's going to be necessary and something like a carrot, but might be helpful in broccoli, for instance. Okay. Yeah? But yeah, but tweet us in at at cooking issues and let us know how this stuff works out and whether you've figured out any good tips or
+
+[24:12] tricks because I like to hear these things. I will. thank you very much Cool, thank you. Okay. So we have a question in from Joshua. He goes, Deer, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe and me, Dave. Nice. Nice to be included. Should we answer the question in that order? Well, you can. If you know the answer. It starts with Dave. Oh, it did start with David. No, but here's the thing. We should answer in that order. If any of you guys know the answer to this. I don't know. give you some sort of prize. jump in. Yeah? I was recently at Booker and Dax during my 1st trip to New York. It was nothing short of incredible. Welcome to New York. come back again We like we like tourists to come to New York. That's how we make our money in New York. What do you think this is? What about your tourist lane? Well, back in the day, here's the thing. I used to live in Times Square, right outside Times Square in the garment district, Stas, you live really close to it now, right? And this is not, I don't think this is my idea. I think this goes back to an old, like New York Times magazine thing from decades ago. But the concept is that you have a tourist
+
+[25:10] lane where you're allowed to kind of stop, pivot. Yeah, take pictures, do whatever it is that you do when, you know, you're in the city for the 1st time, and then a kind of a commuter's walking lane, where if
+
+[25:24] you if you slow down it all, or if you swerve or move in any way other than to get out of the... then yeah, then you get shouldered instantly. like viciously shouldered and you're not upset about it because, babe, it's my bad. I was in the commuting lane and I got viciously shouldered. You know, kind of like bikers do on the Brooklyn Bridge. Brooklyn Bridge. Anyone's a biker out there and you bike on the Brooklyn Bridge. You a freak show. You just like confrontation and you just, you just hate mellow times because that's what it would be like. It would be like that. If you put a tour, if you put a commuter walking lane into Times Square, you know, you would have the same situation with angry people you have on the Brooklyn
+
+[26:03] Bridge. Uh, and by the way, another, maybe it wasn't the tourist lane that was the idea, but in the New York Times, they just, they basically said that we should have these zones where
+
+[26:11] uh, people who live in Manhattan aren't allowed to go. And Times Square would be one of them. And we're just not allowed in there because we just get angry and that's our freaking problem. Like, that is not built for us. That's not for us. is in Times Square, though. Yeah but they're not for us. You know what I'm saying? It's like a Manhattan person is not allowed to get angry at tourists in Times
+
+[26:33] Square. That's unreasonable. Like it is there for them. You are just a chump who, like, happened to plan his commute through the, like, one of the
+
+[26:41] busiest, tourist places in the world. You're bad. Your fault. Anyway, um, that had nothing to do with cooking. Here we go. I was recently at Booker and Dax, my 1st trip to New York. It was nothing short of incredible. The ham and pork buns were both outstanding, but the drinks were out of this world. Well, thank you, Joshua. I appreciate it. I would consider buying a centrifuge just to make the gin and juice again. You can make it without a centrifuge using Agar clarification. Anyway, while there, I tried some orange juice with a lime juice acid profile.
+
+[27:09] I have done a literature search and can't find any standard acid amounts
+
+[27:12] in citrus varieties except for citric acid, any help or a recipe would be great. Also, I used to live in England, and I love the English style bacon rashers that are in full English breakfast. Do you know what cut specifically is used and where I might source it? The only butchers near me just repackage what they are sent, therefore no custom cuts. And if there is anything special about the cure. Thank you for all your help, Joshua. Okay. Um, well, so, Jack and Joe, you want to try and hit that guy? Ah, I got nothing, Joe. I'm going to take a stab at the bacon one and just say it's a thickness thing. It's just pork belly. Okay, well, I have to admit, Stas, you got anything on this? I have to admit, I was locked in so much on the 1st part of your question, and I forgot to even look into the 2nd part of your question, which is horrible. However, I will say this. Um, and, you know, I, I, you know, I like that stuff. Bacon, uh, only in the US, uh, does bacon really mean, um, just the belly cut of the of the pig. And in fact, you used to, in England, have a whole, the whole side of the pig, the flitch would be done, cured in the, in the manner of bacon. And I presume that they do pump styles, but also dry styles. And like one of the famous when you look up is Wiltshire cut or Wiltshire style baking, because that's one of the famous cures. I have the actual old, old techniques in a book by a guy named Nichols called Bacons and Ham. And I did a short review of Bacons and Ham on cooking issues at books from 1917. It has a picture of the author, Nichols, dressed as a flitch
+
+[28:48] of, I love the word flitch of bacon, as a flitch of Wiltshire bacon, and it's got a fold out pig with all the parts in it. And if you remind me, if you send in a tweet next week, I will specifically look up how to do the
+
+[29:01] Wiltshire style or maybe Jack and Joe can look it up. Like that's the classic English bacon style, the wheelchair stuff. Oh, that's an amazing book. It's on the book. Part of it's on the blog. The last time I checked, which was 3 years ago, Google hadn't uploaded it, but maybe you guys can see if
+
+[29:17] they have uploaded bacons and hams because it's one of the all-time great books. The guy has a real sense of humor about bacon. You know what I mean? And he was a producer, and it's just an awesome, awesome guy. Anyways, so as to your 1st question. Um, so you say you can only find citric acid. And the reason is, is that most fruit juices are, uh, most fruit juices are specified in terms of the titratable
+
+[29:39] acidity as expressed as grams of citric acid per 100 milliliters of product.
+
+[29:45] That's how it's done, right? And so it's expressed as an acidity percentage of citric acid. And luckily, or not luckily, you know, coincidentally, the majority of acid in orange juice
+
+[29:59] is, in fact, citric acid. And it's usually somewhere in the range of 0.8 to like
+
+[30:07] one% in that range, 0.8 to one% acid for a standard acidic orange juice that you have lying around.
+
+[30:14] So I use 0.8. Now, what that means is that there are um, 8 grams of citric acid in a liter of, um, in a liter of orange juice, or there are 0.8 grams or close to a gram of citric acid in
+
+[30:32] 100 milliliters or, uh, of, um, of orange juice. Now lime juice, right? Lime juice and lemon juice are both roughly 6% acidity. So 6%, like, so there would be a lot more, right? And so lemon juice is almost entirely citric acid. So if you wanted orange juice with the same acidity as lemon
+
+[30:59] juice and the same acid profile as lemon juice, you would add roughly 5 grams of citric acid to
+
+[31:07] 100 milliliters of orange juice. And you'd have roughly lemon juice. If you wanted to do lime juice, lime juice has a different acid profile, it is
+
+[31:18] roughly, it's also roughly 6%, but it's 2 parts of citric to one part
+
+[31:23] Malik. So to make lime juice, acid out of water, you would take 4 grams of malic acid, sorry, 4 grams of citric
+
+[31:31] acid and 2 grams of malic acid, and also a pinch of succinic acid, which is the real thing that makes it taste like quality lime juice,
+
+[31:38] but you know, that's just a secret between all of us. Anyway, sustainic acid very difficult to get. The other 2 you can just get at a homebrew shops or wine supplies. So you add that and you get it. So when you're trying to take orange juice up to lime juice, acidity, assume that your 100 milliliters of orange juice already has in it, one gram of citric
+
+[31:58] acid. So you need to add another 3 grams of citric acid, hmm? Is that right? Three, four. Yeah. Add 3 grams of citric acid more, and then 2 grams of malloc. Let it dissolve, and whammo. You have orange juice with the acid profile of lime. Yeah? Yeah. And you needn't worry, by the way, and I'll go more into this if you buy, you know, in a year's time when my cocktail book comes out, if you buy, I'll go into excruciating detail about why it's useless to use pH meters to measure the acidity of
+
+[32:33] juices and that really the measurement that you want to use. The only thing that's important is the titratable acidity as expressed in grams of citric acid per 100 mils. And even though different assets have different levels of acidity, that really is, you know, to a 1st order of magnitude, all you need to know, because your mouth doesn't taste pH. Your mouth tastes how many acid molecules are present. Now the different acids do have different profiles. So lemon juice, which is primarily citric, has a very fast citric attack and then decay, whereas malic acid has a
+
+[33:06] longer, a longer resonant time on your tongue. And so malic acid tends to uh, tends to last for a longer amount of time, but has less of a punch, less of an attack. So they are slightly different, but there you have it. What do you think? Good, good. Anyway. Do we take another break or no? We've got another question here. What do you got? Some of your general rules of thumb for keeping leftovers and then subsequently reheating them. Well, it depends on the leftover, really. I mean, so like with meats, uh, with meats, you want to make sure that you don't let oxygen hit them so you don't get the warmed over flavor when you reheat them, right? Because it's an oxidative thing. So if you have a meat with fat on it, the fat's exposed to air, you then reheat it. You can get oxidative damage to the oils, and
+
+[33:47] you get these kind of cardboardy off flavors, and it's known as warmed over flavor, and that's considered bad. So you want to store that stuff without without heat. But, you know, if you have a, you know, look, in the future, maybe everyone will have a circulator just like sitting around kind of running so they
+
+[34:01] can they can reheat stuff. In general, I think an unfortunate thing that happens is we tend to,
+
+[34:08] well, at home, I tend to store everything in quart containers, right? So you'll make a stew, you'll make a soup, you make whatever, you'll pack it into a court container, and you'll put it in your
+
+[34:16] fridge or, I don't know, if you don't have core containers to pack it into it. And those are relatively difficult to reheat because they're they're thick. So let's say you were to make a stew or some sort of whatever, you know, whatever you
+
+[34:27] want and pack it in, and then you try to reheat that, well, it doesn't really work. And then you break it out, you put it in a pan and the stuff in the bottom of the pan starts to scorch, right? You've had this happen, right, Stas? And it's irritating. And the only alternatives are to like sit there and nuke it a 1000000000 times and stir it while you nuke it to try, which is irritating, right? Here's a better solution, I think, is to put your stuff in ziploc bags and then flatten them when you seal them. Now the entire package, the entire Ziploc package is only, you know,
+
+[34:56] uh, you know, like a set, a couple centimeters thick, maybe. And then you can heat up some water to a simmer, turn it off, throw your packages in. You dont want to boil zip block bags because they can hit the sides of pans and break, and they reheat very quickly and very evenly. If you have a rice cooker that is induction, fired with induction, right? And it's a grain product that you're trying to reheat. Throwing a couple tablespoons of water into the bottom of your rice cooker and then just dumping the product in and breaking it up and hitting the reheat cook cycle is a
+
+[35:24] fantastic mellow way to reheat stuff. That'll work. I mean, should you have to reheat rice? That's the best way, even though, I mean, the best way is to make fried rice. Fried rice delicious. Do you like fried rice? Yeah, 0 man, good. Really? You like fried rice? We need a sound effect for when Nastasi likes something. Yeah, fried rice is straight up delicious. I mean, I don't know. how you could not like it. It's delicious Anyways, do you like the egg mixed in or the chunks of egg? Really? I kind of like both, so I mix some in, and then I cut up, I make some like, you know, some omelette style stuff and throw the chunks in as well. Yeah. Anyhoo. So, but if you want to reheat it, normal style, rice, I use the zoji Rushi, which is awesome piece of equipment, induction fuzzy,
+
+[36:03] neuro-fuzzy rice cooker, 18 cup, and I tell you what, you look at the price tag, and you're like, 250 bucks for a rice
+
+[36:08] cooker, I use that sucker so freaking much. It is such a freaking machine. It does such a great job on rice. But anyway, also that can reheat things like lentils or drier things like beans that are more difficult to reheat. I mean, things that are liquidy beans, you don't really need it. Although I guess it could. I've never used it for that, but it's really gentle and because it's induction heated and has a fairly accurate thermal control. It doesn't ever scorch, never, ever, never scorch. Never, never scorch. The other alternative is to spread things very thick and then hit them with super high heat and crust them up. Like, do you like, do you like the reheat pasta by like frying the bottom of it to get a real nice crust on it or not? Depends. The problem is if you've overcooked the pasta at all, it mushes and then turns to crap. Gotta hate that. I hate that. Do you hate that? I hate that. What do you think, Jack? These good suggestions or no? This is great. All right. Do we need any morally? We need more reheat, reheat techniques. think that's good for now. Alright. We also wanted to know what your tailgate would look like as it's kind of tailgate season right now. Oh man. He doesn't like football or fantasy. I don't like fantasy. No offense. Like, in general... like fantasies in general? Like in general, in general, I'm like, that's just a fantasy. No, that's not true. Like, I have an imagination. I'm not a... I don't I don't dislike fantasy football. I feel that, you know, stars bringing up personal stuff here. I just feel that we have enough work to do at Booker and
+
+[37:34] Dax equipment company trying to get some of our projects off the ground that we don't need to fill the time with fantasy football. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I want everyone to see. I want everyone to hear Nastasia Lopez saying she does not do fantasy football at work. That was you and Piper sitting together with some sort of stats
+
+[37:52] up, discussing the relative merits of the Manning Brothers, and discussing your fantasy football picks as though it was some sort of urgent problem that needed to be
+
+[38:01] addressed. It was happening that it was Thursday. It's like Thursday is the day you need to be ready. Wait, which is it? The Thursdays of day need to be ready and it's really urgent and a big deal or that you don't do it at work. Oh my god. Fantasy freaking football. Fantasy. I'm like, I'm like, we have real life projects that are going sour and you're working on fantasy football. Uh, so my tailgate, if I was gonna do it. I mean, I would bring a bunch of my sears all so I can finish some stuff off. Are you allowed to run your car during the tailgate or is that considered like really bad news? Bad news, right? That's ruin the environment. bad form, yeah. Yeah. what do you what do people do? Bring a bunch of batteries to run their circulators? I think they found it off a generator. They run it off a generator? I mean, look, I would probably do like some serious brats and burgers with either like a grill or searsal or both. And I would just crank out some super high quality products like that. I would take, I would make a bunch of carbonated cocktails, and then I'd get a bunch of, you know, probably bottles, or do people prefer cans at these things. I don't think you can bring glass in. So cans. So we would do probably some bottle cocktails for me, you know, in plastic bottles, right? Uh, you know, carbonated because, yeah, although how many people are at tailgates are not driving? Oh, I think they're all driving. Well, hell, I'm not going to start in that crap. Well, I think there's some that don't drive. they just come with the crew. All right. Well, for the people that can't drink. Here's something. If you want beer and you can't drink. I do this hops tincture right now that you can add the seltzer water and it gives kind of a beery feeling to it, but it's a much higher quality product than like, I just feel bad buying
+
+[39:38] O'Dools. It just seems weird, right? But anyway, I would probably do a salt, uh, salt and ice chilled, uh, beer section where I get it really accurate. I get it just down to the freezing point of the beer. Yes, there. You know what I mean? Just right. Super cool. to our tailgate on December 8th. Yeah, it probably won't happen. But listen, it's like the, uh, wow. So the trick is, American, like, I don't want to hear anything from a beer aficionados saying,
+
+[40:04] beers isn't supposed to be cold. American beer is supposed to be cold. It has no flavor, so it's supposed to be really, has flavor, but it's supposed to be cold, right? Ice cold. Ice freaking cold. And actually, ice is only about zero. You want that thing slightly more than ice cold. So a little salt and ice in there. So that's how I would probably rock out the tailgate. What do you think? That sounds good. Yeah, people will come to that, right? Burgers. Brats. Brats. Brats. If you might hate fantasy football, like Nastasia hates vegans. Uh, no, because I don't have anything against it when it doesn't intrude on work.
+
+[40:40] I mean, it's not like vegans like knock on my window and say, hey, can you stop working so that we can talk about vegetables. It doesn't happen. Uh, you know? All right. We gotta call her. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, David, Hayden from Richmond. Hey, how you doing? Good, man. I had a question about cooking meat from frozen. Okay. Um, I wanted to know what hap- what's happening when you're cooking meat from frozen, and is it ever, um, uh, negative quality thing, like if you were cooking a
+
+[41:10] braised, for instance, like pork cheeks or maybe a pig's head phrase? Would that be a good thing or like acceptable or would you get a really mushy product? All right, well, I've never done it side by side. I have cooked from frozen on, you know, on
+
+[41:26] occasions, on several more than several occasions. Uh, I have never done. I've never done a side-by-side. Now, there are people, of course, who always sear frozen. like they they freeze the product and then sear it. Uh, and there's some people like the modernist cuisine uh, recommendations where they just parfreeze the outside with liquid
+
+[41:46] nitro or not parfreeze, but only on the surface with liquid nitrogen, then do their sear. And the theory there being that you're not going to overcook the interior, the meat, right? Right. You know, the results are actually slightly different. In fact, ideas in food now has a big frozen sear thing that they do, and I don't know if they cook direct from frozen or not. I think they do. But I, I, you know, there might, I repeat,
+
+[42:09] might be a difference in, um, what happens when you're cooking on a, on a slow
+
+[42:15] cook, going. You're talking in a bag slow, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Because you can't really do it traditionally at traditional temperatures because you'll overcook before you
+
+[42:25] thaw. You know what I'm saying? So you can't do it that way. Right. But if you're doing, we're talking low temp, good. So we're talking low temp. Uh, the only difference I can see is that in a standard piece of meat, a large Porsche, a standard unfrozen piece of meat that you're cooking low temperature, a large portion of the meat is in the range, uh, in kind of the middle temperature range between 40, uh, cells,
+
+[42:49] 40 uh, Fahrenheit, you know, uh, fridge temperature, and uh, cooking temperature, let's just say, 55 Celsius for the steak that I do, right? There's a good, uh, uh, there's a good amount of meat in that range. And in that range when the meat is in there, different things can happen. Enzymes can help break down tissues and different reactions can take place. You won't have those reactions take place in a piece of meat that's going directly in the bathroom freezing because there'll be a fairly fine line between the
+
+[43:19] cook temperature place and the place where it's, you know, 0 and very, not
+
+[43:24] 0, but, you know, 0 Celsius and very few of those reactions are taking place. So my feeling is, but the real thing is, I don't really know how much of a difference that'll make. My guess is not that much. And if the product, if the product's already already thawed anyway, now look, if you thaw a product out. So I always tell people, they say, like, you know, how's my meat going to be that's been frozen? I say, well, when you thought it, look at how much drip is coming
+
+[43:46] out and a meat that's been stored poorly or for too long with a lot of temperature cycling is going to have a huge amount of drip loss out of their meat, right? But frankly, you know, if you're doing a braise, you're going to be cooking at high enough temperatures that you'd get an equivalent amount of drip loss out of the fresh thing anyway because you'd be squeezing that crap out when you're when you're
+
+[44:06] cooking it. You know, it's only in kind of steak scenarios where you get very little drip out of the cook because your
+
+[44:15] temperatures are so low that I think it's going to make a big deal about the drip loss on thawing inside the
+
+[44:21] bag. Uh, you know, I think it's probably going to be minimal in a braise. It's my feeling. Now, my only the only caveat with braises in general is that you want to hyper reduce any stock or any flavors or any sauces that go in the bag with the
+
+[44:37] braves because otherwise it's going to taste poached when it comes out instead of braised. Not bad, just poached. Okay, and what about traditional? If you were going to do a traditional braise with one of the, with, you know, like a tougher cut. Not in a bag from frozen. Yeah, I don't know. I'd be more loath to do it and that, but the question is, is how long, how long is the window of awesomeness on the cook, right?
+
+[45:04] That's the 1st thing you have to ask. And then how thick are the pieces and how fast will they thaw out in the simmering
+
+[45:11] water? That's the 2nd, you know, in the in the bubbling water. That's the 2nd piece of the puzzle. So if the window of awesomeness, Uh, let's say you're doing like, you know, you're getting a pork shoulder and you, uh, you're making, you know, I don't know, chili or something like this and you're braising it out. Uh, you know, I wouldn't do a whole pork shoulder that way.
+
+[45:31] Thats crazy. Now, if you, if the pieces had already been cut down, you know, such
+
+[45:36] that, you know, they're only, you know, you know, centimeter, 2 centimeters thick, like I normally do when I'm going to pressure cook, and then, you know, you sear them off to get a little crust to have a phone to reduce anyway, right?
+
+[45:47] That's pre-thawing them a little bit, and then you throw them in. Well, we all know that, you know, you have quite a bit of time from the time it 1st becomes tender
+
+[45:56] until the time it's crap for that to be done and they'll probably thaw out pretty quickly. So probably not a big deal. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think a lot depends, uh, and you just have to kind of judge in your mind uh, how long it's going to take the thaw out and how big of a window you have. Okay, cool. that's really helpful All righty. Good luck with it. Let's know how everything works out. Absolutely. Thanks, Dave. Love the show. All right, thanks. Okay, so we have 2 more quick ones. try to try to get in. We have from Parker Cook, who is at gun pistol man. I wonder whether he knows Byron Ferguson. Yeah. not Byron Ferguson. Who was the other? Bob Munden, the fastest he just died like a couple years ago, the fastest draw, like in the world,
+
+[46:39] got freaking incredible. died of a heart attack in his car. when he was driving. rough. You wouldn't think that like the fastest draw like to ever have lived. Like the world's fastest gun, just in a car, heart attack. You know what I mean? Sucks, right? Yeah. Me, I don't know. I don't know, that has nothing to do with anything. Okay. He says at cookie issues. What are your guys' guilty pleasures? I love making homemade sous vide burgers, but on occasion, love a burger from McDonald's. What do you think? What do you got? Give me some good buttons. I think economy candy. Candy. Just total binge. Oh, nostalgia is a candy feed. But she's also, she also like has some weird hates. Like you hate, like, what flavor of gummy bear do you hate? What color, I should say? All except white. You only love white? I can eat red and green. But you buy saxism just for the whites? Yeah, paper gives me all the whites. Wait, so I've seen you, you and Piper plow through sacks and gummy bears. I know. And it's only for the whites. Sometimes the reds. And beans. And greens. Strange. Uh, so, what's yours? Mine? Uh, well, 1st of all, I, you know, for for many, many years, I had uh, not been to McDonald's, like 2 decades
+
+[47:53] almost. Uh, decade and a half. And then, uh, I swear to God, once I have kids and I bought a car and you're rocketing down I95 or trying to, you're actually stopped in bumper to
+
+[48:05] bumper traffic on I 95, like one of the worst roads. It wasn't like that, you know, 20 years ago when I used to drive it every day. Now it's like just freaking the worst traffic mess in the world. So you're there and your kids are freaking hungry and you don't want to get off and find something real. And so the McDonald's is there. So I have to admit, I've gone to it a couple times recently. And you know what I've always loved at McDonald's is the fake milkshakes. Those fake shakes are freaking delicious. I always feel bad after I drink them, like they make me feel kind of wrong. Not guilty, wrong. Uh, but I love them. I love the texture. They're so I don't even know how they make those damn things. They're made with milk. I know they're actually milk, but for my whole life I've called them fake shakes. Vanilla, not the chocolate chocolate week, vanilla good. And, you know, or vanilla in, the vanilla in fake shake from McDonald's. You like those things? I haven't happened in a very long time. What about you guys? You guys in the booth like the McDonald's fake shake? I like the McDonald's milkshake, but I heard a rumor, and this actually might be something to look into for next week, that the McFlurry at McDonald's is completely
+
+[49:06] vegan if you get it with Oreos, because there's no real milk in it. I do not know that. I will look it up. It's a rumor I've heard. don't know. completely false. Yeah, I mean, I will look it up. You know, I know for a fact that the fake shake has milk in it because they used to put the real symbol on it. The milk symbol, the real symbol, but I don't know about this. McFlurry. Isn't Flurry owned by the, so doesn't someone else own Flurry? Well, no, there's the blizzard, which is Dairy Queen. Oh, no, Dairy Queen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, blizzard, Dairy Queen. Okay, so listen. So here's the real trick. Parker. Like, I don't believe in feeling guilty about what you meet. And this is, I think, the primary, this is the primary thing. I don't allow anyone to say the word, to use the word junk food in my house. And the reason is, I think that thinking about food as something you
+
+[49:58] do to make yourself guilty or not guilty, or as a reward for being able to do something that you perceive as
+
+[50:06] bad, is fundamentally unhealthy way that we look at eating here in this
+
+[50:11] country. I think that, you know, there is food that I don't allow my kids to eat all the
+
+[50:16] time, there's foods that I don't buy because they're low quality, like lunchables. I don't know. I don't know who the hell does the marketing on lunchables, right? But my kids ask for lunchables all the time. Booker, my my oldest son, you know, he has he has some some specific issues, but we're going through the supermarket. He's like, daddy, why won't you buy the lunchables? Is it because they're low quality? I'm like... He does the same thing, like, with, like, they have low, they have some low quality meats at my local kind of, you know, supermarket. And so like, why don't you buy the beef here, daddy? Is it because it's low quality? I'm like, shh. So I think that there's foods that are kind of low quality. They still have nutrients and they still be eaten. And I don't buy those, but I don't believe in any category of food being junk, just ones that you should probably eat more
+
+[51:01] of and ones you should eat less of. But I think, you know, we as a nation would do better to think
+
+[51:07] about, um, to not think of food that way, right? What do you think, Steph? I mean, I feel bad when I eat a ton of candy. Yeah, because you're eating a ton of candy. You know what I mean? That's like, you know what? When I went to Austin after I did my, uh, after I did my vegan
+
+[51:24] purge and I ate nothing but, uh, uh, you know, barbecued beef brisket
+
+[51:30] and like pounds of it, like, you know, for 24 hours straight. I felt bad. Not because my body had just come off of a vegan Persian. I was polluting it with meat, right? But because I ate too much freaking meat. I just ate huge piles of greasy, peppery, barbecued, delicious meat, but you know what I mean? your body's not set up for that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, the binging thing and the worry about things. So my kids sit around worrying all the time about when they can get the stuff that's perceived as junk food. crap on it. I just don't use the term. You know what I mean? Like Twinkie is not a well-made product. I love them. Twinkies are good. Maybe that's one, but I like it twinky. Well, more accurate. what products are poorly made and I still like them? I like Twinkies, even though they're poorly made. And as an adult, I can taste that they're bad, poorly made, and I still like them, you know? Uh, maybe the same, like I can deal with those black olives. They're poorly made, but I still like them. There's plenty of products that are crap that I actually enjoy, you know? I feel that way
+
+[52:29] about, like, processed cheese queso dip. That stuff is awesome. queso is freaking awesome. Anyone that doesn't like queso has issues. That's stuff straight up delicious on a chip. Come on. That stuff's delicious. I like, do you make your own? Do you buy rotel? Oh, you can fake it with the jalapeno slices chopped up and just chopping it on tomatoes, but rotel is the way to go. Okay. Uh, on the way out, uh, Christian Spinello from at Eat the Pig. We received your copy that you gave us of The Curious Cook from Harold McGee. Thank you so much. We're gonna have him sign it when he comes in. He's gonna be in pretty soon. of the week, I think. And then maybe we should use it. Anyway, because I have a copy at home. This is our lab copy now, but maybe we can get him to sign it and maybe use it for fundraising, right? Yeah. What do you think? Because everyone out there should go get a copy of The Curious Cook, his 2nd book, and the one that's unfortunately out of print, and I beat into his head every time I see him, that he should put some of it available
+
+[53:27] online, because it really gives an insight into the mind of McGee.
+
+[53:31] And Christian also asked, Dave, a while back, you mentioned olive oil from Italy that you liked, and it was a good deal. Galufo, I believe, with 2 L's and 2 S. Can you get it online? I believe you can buy, it's not sold under his name, but it's in DiPolo's,
+
+[53:44] DiPolo's, Apollo's is a cheese shop here in Manhattan. If you should come to Manhattan, please go to DiPolo's and they will sell some of their delicious olive oils online. I happen to like a lot of olive oils from Sicily, specifically from Trapani, pronounced
+
+[53:57] Trapani, Trapani, Trapani. And they have good salt around there, but they also have really good oils. I specifically like uh, certain, uh, you know, olive varieties of, like,
+
+[54:07] nocholard, and, you know, things like that. Would you like do you like Sicilian olive oil or do you like other kind of olive oil? Whatever. So my point is, is that it depends year to year how the harvest is. So you really want to go to a supplier that has olive oils and
+
+[54:19] we'll let you taste them. May I recommend Apollos? cooking issues.
+
+[54:29] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access. Regional access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the
+
+[0:07] Northeast. For more information, visit regionalaccess.net. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, you just come to you live for a birth pizzeria in the back of Roberta Pizzeria. I said, we're birds, all right. But for Brooklyn. Here, as usual. Witness Dash of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Taz? Yeah, we got Jack in the engineering booth that we got a new person in the engineering booth, never worked a show before, correct? No, Dedrick, 1st time. Hey, Dedrick, how you doing? How's it going? Yeah? Longtime listener, 1st time engineer. Nice. Sweet. So we're gonna have to get some questions and call out the Dedrick. Yeah, and we've got we've got a Piper on the line. Oh, Piper's called in. Yeah, all right. So while we'll handle 1st of all, call your questions two. 718-4972128. 718-4972128. Uh, but Piper's on the line because, uh, you know, a listener friend of ours, John Riper, not not Ripper, not repair, like the chef,
+
+[1:20] Riper, as in the fruits we're about to talk about, shipped us a bunch of fall apples from the
+
+[1:25] Washington, and Piper has hesitation. Piper, how you doing? Pretty good. Pretty good. Just pretty good. Yeah, yeah. No real good. Yeah. Well, Piper's getting ready, actually, for a, we're doing a tasting of all the Booker and Dax products today at the labs. Is that true or false? True. And we have a, we have a big, uh, what's it called? bar meeting today, yeah? Yeah. I'm not doing any of that right now. Wow. Wow. Anger on the air. I like that. I like that. Sweet anger on the air. So anyway, what? Just salty. Yeah, salty. Yeah, salty man. Yeah. Okay. You know, he came over on the family Piper Piper's family came over on the Mayflower, and they still haven't kind of washed the salt out of themselves. It's only been like 400 years or something like this, you know, since they came over. you know, right? Yeah, almost 400 years. No? Yeah, it's coming up big anniversary. Yes, he's like, the family going to get together in Vermont and celebrate the, uh, celebrate the subjugation of our great nation. We're going to go to the White House, I think. Yeah, yeah. Well, for those of you who don't know, Piper is named after an old relative of his, whose only job, only job was to keep the lighthouse running, right? Got drunk. Right? I'm not saying anything about Piper. editorializing, I think on your part. Well, if we know he didn't flip the light on. So either he's completely incompetent or a drunkard or both. How do you not flick the light on? How do you not light a lighthouse? It's your only job. Your only thing you need to do? your whole life, flick the light switch, or, you know, light it, whatever they did back in the day, they had probably a big for no lens, whatever. I'm not going to get into it. Anyway, this is the relative that Piper's family chose to name him
+
+[3:03] after if this gives you any indication of the family. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. my conference level. All right. So, uh, so anyhow, uh, we have like a whole bunch of uh, apples that uh, Johnson and it was something like 15 uh, different apples, something like this. Some of them are my favorites, like Ash meets Colonel, everyone knows that that's one of my, well, no. If you've heard me yell about apples before, Ash means kernel, one of my favorite apples. But some varieties that we hadn't tried before. But one thing I will say, John, John did an excellent job. Now, everybody knows that apples, uh, they bruise and when they bruise, uh, the polyphenol oxidase enzymes inside the apples cause uh, the apples to turn brown and oxidize and it's no bread, no one likes a bruised apple, right,
+
+[3:45] Styles? Even, well, of course, you would not like a bruised apple, but maybe perversely you would because you'd like something that's kind of blemished, but you hate blemishes. Anyway, it's too hard to figure out style sometimes. But, uh, the point is, so wrap them very carefully individually in bubble wrap, overwrap
+
+[4:00] them and label them, which is awesome, except, uh, I think what happened
+
+[4:03] is, is that the bubble wrap was very effective at keeping the ethylene from the
+
+[4:09] apples inside, uh, you know, in close contact with the apples. And so I think we got some accelerated ripening on the apples in the
+
+[4:16] box in transit. And what that means, if you ever picked a bunch of apples before, you'll notice that as apples are, you know, as apples are getting more and more ripe and tending towards override, that all of a sudden, the apples will start feeling greasy. And I think it's because of maybe an increase in wax production, but all these kind of, when you pick them up, they had the kind of feel, the feel of an apple that was a little bit overripe, and some of the texture had gone from not being, um, as crisp,
+
+[4:44] as I know some of the apple varieties is, and it's a lot of the apples have developed some of the kind of floral notes, that an apple picks up in the later stages of ripening. Now, Piper and Nastasia are both, um, are both, uh, what would you say? kind of, you know, got me a little angry, right? Not angry, but disappointed, more disappointed than angry because they are 2 of the classic Americans who only like crunchy freaking apples.
+
+[5:10] This is true or false? True. Yeah. Yeah. So you only like crunchy apples, even though, like, why should every apple have to be crunchy? Like, like our reaction against non-crunchy apples is because most of the non-crunchy apples that we get in the supermarket
+
+[5:26] are, in fact, bad quality apples. They're apples that are meant to be crunchy, that are stored too long and they're mealy, or we're used to mealy tasteless apples like red delicious, which are horrible. They, you know, 99% of the red delicious trees should be pulped instantly and turned into paper or burnt for smoking, pork or something useful like
+
+[5:45] this instead of producing the wretched quality fake apples, not fake, but the crap apples. Oh, crap apples. That's a good one, right? Instead of crab apples, I will use that one. Uh, but the, um, Anyhoo, the point is, is that there is uh, something that is not a mealy disgusting apple and is not a crunchy
+
+[6:03] apple, and uh, the term is crumbly. And in fact, one of the ones that John sent was Cox Orange Pippin, and, you know, which is the classic, you know, UK dessert variety apple, and it is supposed to have kind of a bit of a crumbly texture in its later stage ripening, which I thought was quite nice, but I couldn't get these 2
+
+[6:21] Jokomos here to, you know, to think outside of the, of, you know, whatever box they grew up eating apples. I'll tell you what the sad, sad effect of that is. If you go to a farmer's market in the US and you buy one, if you go to a farmer's market here in New York, okay? Nowadays, you can find anytime during Apple season, which lasts from roughly July until October, you know, November,
+
+[6:44] right, when they get, and even later for the keeping apples. You can find 20 varieties easily, right? The problem is most of the growers who bring the apples will always pick them
+
+[6:54] under ripe because they want them to be crunchy because they know that even theoretically food educated people like Nastasia and Piper are only going to like those apples if they're freaking crunchy. And the fact is, if you pick an underripe apple, to me, often it's worse than an overripe apple because the flavors haven't developed yet. So a lot of times you give varieties and you're like, man, that tastes thin and acidic and kind of like just a bad version of a Granny Smith, which is a one
+
+[7:18] note kind of pure apple, you know, thin acid flavor apple. And the fact of the matter is, is that is that growers are just picking the suckers under right because Americans can't taste around a non-crunchy apple. Okay. I'm done talking about that. But some of the Piper's got the notes, which is why I have him on the line. I didn't we didn't call him in just so I could berate him about his Apple taste, right? Yeah, that's the added benefit. That's a side benefit that you get. So, uh, so the ones we got were like uh, ambrosia, our lay, Swiss gourmet, what did we say about the Swiss gourmet? I don't remember what we thought because I hadn't had that one before. Let's see. The, uh, Which one?
+
+[7:56] Arlay. Arlay. He has to sit through handwritten notes. So while he's doing that, I'll talk about one of the ones that, uh, I thought was good, but that, uh, you know, that these guys had some issues
+
+[8:07] with, and that is the, uh, the Rubenet, right? That's the one that I liked, that, that, you know, that according to the documents that we got from John is the greatest Apple ever produced. Is that is that true or false? Is that the one? Yeah. Is that the one or not? Uh, I believe... No, no, no. A nova? He said it was the best apple ever. That's the one he was. liked it, but you didn't like it, right? No. Yeah. He said it was the best chasing apple in the world. I mean, I guess I couldn't get over the... the texture.
+
+[8:40] No, but you also thought the interesting thing about it was it was an extremely high acid, high flavor apple with some spiciness in it,
+
+[8:49] right? Yeah, I think they had kind of a funkiness at the end that I didn't like. Right. But I'm wondering whether that was a function of the fact that it had been around for a little while or whether or not, like that's part of it, but I think that that stuff would be good juice. By the way, here's another thing that's great about cocktails for apples, is if you're using an apple for cocktails, then, um, If you're using an apple for cocktails, texture doesn't matter anymore.
+
+[9:14] All you have to care about is the acid, acid sugar balance, and, uh, beyond that, kind of whether there's any interesting spicy notes or other flavor notes, uh, in the apples. So I thought that Rubenet, I would definitely want to get a bunch more Rubenet. Did juice the ones we had yet or we haven't had a chance yet to juice the... I'll do some. Yeah, well, juice the 3 that are left and check it out. In the concord grapes. Oh, wow. Stas is giving you some extra stuff to do. worry about it. don't have enough to do. Okay, so anyway, anything else you want to say from the apple tasting there or do you like, no? No? You're good. Um, let's see. I mean, Artlet was a is a big hit. I think overall, like, the profile acid and sweetness is really good. Is that one of the ones that's a good keeper, therefore, it stays crunchy for a long time and that's why you liked it? The one we had wasn't so crunchy. No? Um, the Mutsu, I think, too sweet. Yeah, that's like a Japanese style. The one we had was very high sweetness, almost like a, like a Fuji with like a low back, like not much of an acid backbone. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Well, anyway, thanks so much, John, for all those apples. Super interesting, and we'll, I guess we'll talk more about them as the time goes. I definitely want to get hold of some of those Reuben S to juice them out, right? All right, thanks pipes. All right, Tom Fisher writes in. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. I just made 3 gallons of aged egg. Joe didn't want to show up today. He didn't like us. Yeah. Anyway. I just made 3 gallons of aged eggnog, but the following recipe per gallon. 12 egg yolks, 2 cups sugar, one half gallon, whole milk, one
+
+[10:49] cup, heavy cream, one cup bourbon, one cup, cognac, and one cup. Dark rum. I should, like, right? You gotta read it like that kind of stuff, no? Anyway, the mix seems very thin. Will this thicken over time or is there a problem with the proportions? If it will not thicken on its own, what would be the best way to fix it? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Well, that sucker should uh, that should uh, thicken over time. I've never actually made eggnog because truth be told, I don't really like eggnog. Styles. You like it? All right. Well, why don't we, we'll make a batch at the lab and then, uh, you know, I'll taste a little bit of it and you and Piper compound it as per usual, just like pounding eggnog.
+
+[11:23] Yeah, I'm not a big fan of most kind of milky drinks. So I've never worked on it. However, I know for a fact, I was consulted a couple of years ago, someone was doing an article on the safety considerations when you're aging
+
+[11:38] eggnog. Um, and this is right around the time that Rockefeller, so, so one of the questions people have isn't necessarily about thickening. It's about safety because you're storing raw eggs. You don't cook this stuff. So you're storing raw eggs in the fridge for a long time. Uh, and in fact, the interesting thing, um, that this article that I don't even know if I was quoting it, but I was used as background on, that I was talking to this person at the Rockefeller University, which is well known, you know, uh, place here that does a lot of uh,
+
+[12:05] interesting uh, you know, bio and and uh, microbiology work, uh, in their lab, every year they make uh, aged eggnog, right?
+
+[12:13] So they make it at Thanksgiving time and they drink it at Christmas and no one had ever bothered to test to ensure whether or not it's safe.
+
+[12:19] So they actually took a batch of eggnog, spiked it with salmonella and then incubated it in the fridge as you would normal eggnog and tested it to make sure that the salmonella was going to be dead and sure
+
+[12:30] shoot and the salmonella is dead. But you don't want to eat it. You don't want to drink it right away because in fact, the salmonella is not killed immediately by
+
+[12:37] the uh, by the alcohol in it, but over time, in the fridge, this becomes safer and safer because
+
+[12:44] uh, I think most of the recipes that for the eggnog, They come in when you're aging it at like roughly 20% or a little higher than 20% alcohol. And at those levels, you're stable from a bunch of things, right? Acetobactor is not really going to grow up there and turn your stuff to vinegar. You're not gonna get, um, a lot of fermentative action or from yeast at that high alcohol
+
+[13:05] level. And you're not going to get any bacterial growth at that level. In fact, you'll eventually be killing bacteria, which is why the longer that stuff sits the safer it is. Now there's still the possibility of a mold growing on top. So you just want to make sure that, you know, that doesn't happen. At least I'm pretty sure there's a possibility of mold growing on top. But I'm not sure, actually, but that's what I think. Now, the other side of it is, is that you have in that mix a bunch of different proteins, right? So you have, I forget, did he use whole eggs or just yolks. Let me see. Um, use just yolks. I think some recipes might call for a whole egg, but I'm not sure. Anyway, but you have proteins in the yolk. You have protein in the milk and protein in the cream. All of these proteins are destabilized to a greater or lesser extent by the alcohol that's in there. And so over time, are more likely to agglomerate with each other and thicken the beverage than they would in a normal
+
+[14:02] aqueous solution, right? So over time, over slow time, at fridge temperatures, you should notice a thickening of the product. Now, I don't know whether there'll be ancillary thinning if you store it for, you know, like 2 years or something like this. I don't know, but from everything I've read, you know, you will get a thickening that happens over the 1st
+
+[14:21] 3 weeks, let's say. Now, simultaneously with that, the products themselves are changing because they're not static, primarily probably due to enzymatic reactions, and just
+
+[14:30] a different compounds in there, combining with each other, and altering their own flavors and knocking each other out. Yeah? So stuff should thicken. If it doesn't thicken, give us a holler back and I'll tell you how to fake thicken it with something like, uh, you know, a small amount of
+
+[14:44] carrogenin or Xanthan or some stuff, but you don't want to goop it up if you don't have to, right? You don't want to goop it up. Do you like do you like commercial eggnog? See, this is what I love. Here's the thing, right? It's like, here, we had this talk last week, right, about the Twinkies. It's like if you grow up liking some crap. And then it doesn't matter whether it's high quality or not, right? Because that's what you grew up eating. Is that how you feel about soda too, maybe? Soda? Okay, so I'm a little weird. I grew up drinking diet soda. There was always diet soda in my house. I can't drink regular soda. It's like it's like drinking candy for me, but I can pound diet soda because there's like no
+
+[15:22] no syrup. And I like, I don't, I haven't drunk it in a long time, so now it tastes chemically to me. So it's not it's not as awesome as it used to be. You know what I mean? Whereas I used to pound, pound, pound it. You know what I mean? Like back in the, back in the saccharin days, I was pounding it, you know, like, uh, I went through saccharin, and then
+
+[15:41] nutrisweet. Uh, I don't, you know, I never got used to the Splendor Crap. And I won't drink Stevia. That stuff's wretched. I mean, nowadays, you know, ever since college, when I went to college, Okay, look, people who live in the East Coast, Seltzer is freaking cheap, right? Like, since since I've been a little kid, it's like 2 bottles for a dollar, vintage sells her, 2 bottles for a dollar. Not on the west. It's not big on the west coast. I don't think Seltzer's big on the west coast. I think it's an East Coast thing. Like out in the west coast, they drink sparkly waters. But here in New York, we drink seltzer water, you know? And you get on the airplane and you're like, I want seltzer and they're like,
+
+[16:15] club soda? You know, you're like, no, I want like ripping New York, seltzer water. It's not just New York. You know what I mean? Uh, and uh, that stuff is cheap as hell. So when I went to college, because I'm a cheap skinflint, some, you know, what, right? And so I was like, I'm going to train myself to like Celtzer. I hated seltzer when I was a little kid. I only liked soda and crystal light. Uh, and if you, uh, because I believe in me. And the, uh, the, what I did is I just sat there and for like a week straight, Drake only sells her, and then now, ever since then, I couldn't, couldn't get enough. And then when I went to Frieden college, which is why I trained myself. Not only did they have soda and seltzer on taps, so I didn't need to train myself for the dining hall. Not only that. But if you go to the freaking, because I never shopped at convenience stores before, because I lived in the suburbs and we shopped at a supermarket, right? So I go there and I find out that in convenience store, they rip you off equally for all kinds of soda, whether or not they put flavorings in it or not. And then when I'm showing up in a store and I have 2 bottles, right? One that contains just sparkling water. And the other one, which contains sparkling water, flavor, color, and
+
+[17:24] aspartame. I'm like, well, I'll be goddamned if I'm going to pay Canada dry the same amount of money for putting less crap in the bottle.
+
+[17:31] And so even though I liked it less, I would buy the soda. That is how freaking cheap and demented I am. Now, you should take a commercial break. Sure. All right, commercial break coming back with cooking issues. Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access. Regional Access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the Northeast. This community oriented company was built on a vision of providing ecologically responsible and
+
+[17:59] ethically produced food to area consumers. During a typical week at the regional access warehouse, they help move thousands of pounds of natural and grass fed meat, gallons of farm fresh dairy, and tons of organic and specialty foods from producer to market. Having been in the distribution business for almost 25 years, regional
+
+[18:17] access is experience and knowledge make them uniquely equipped to build out their region's food web.
+
+[18:22] Up in the Finger Lakes, regional access will continue to champion the region's bounty and work toward a sustainable food system for the entire Northeast. For more information, visit regionalaccess.net.
+
+[18:42] And we're back. All right, so call on your questions 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Got some hot sauce in from New Zealand. Do you remember, like, I don't know, it was a while ago. We had some questions in from New Zealand about hot sauces that had to preserve them. Well, it turns out that Rory M, the person who was making the sauce, having the questions, from New Zealand, a place that I would love to go, ever since when I was a, you know, watching
+
+[19:11] Xena Warrior Prince, is a great program. Were you more of a fan of Hercules or Xena Warrior Princess? I didn't watch either. Really? Why? Because people liked it. Was it on cable, I think? It's not on cable. It was like channels, well, this is channel 11, I thought, yeah. Yeah, out here it's 11. Yeah. PIX or whatever. Crap channel. Are you on crack? Listen, like, you know, like Xena Warrior Princess and Hercules. What was the crap channel, Dave? You should be called the WB. Didn't he speak all something else? Yeah. WB. I can't believe that you're calling Zena and Hercules crap. That was that was like... That was groundbreaking TV back then. Zena. Zena was like, you know, one of those early, like, you know, Wonder Woman
+
+[19:49] was, she was kind of like demure, like, you know, super heroin. Zena, like, was like kicking ass and taking names all the time, all the time.
+
+[19:58] You have no appreciation for that? I do, but... I don't care about that. I liked the idea of it more than the actual thing. Oh, man. You guys, very depressing, depressing. Okay. Anyhoo, Rory dropped off some hot sauce and we're going to taste it here on the air. It's called 90 Mile Mile Capsicum Sauce from due north, although due north, it's interesting. he's actually due south. He's in New Zealand and the brand here is due north. Is it due north or duo north? Can't read very well. Anyways, so the taste of it, it is mild. very peppery, and it reminds me kind of of a liquid form of, I mean, and I hope this is kind of what you're shooting, liquid form of, you know, peppadoo peppers, the ones that come from South Africa, they bring them in, they sell them in,
+
+[20:43] in kind of high-end grocery stores. the sweet red peppers that are served in brine. You really don't know what they're talking about. I mean, if I saw it. if you saw it. Oh my god. Okay. So we'll taste that in a minute. Meanwhile, here's the question. As promised to sample the sauce, you and your listeners helped out with all the way from New Zealand. A question for the show. Well, here in New York, I bought one of those flexi mesh bread molds with the aim of cutting it in half. So it'll fit in a home oven. However, the salesman at J.B. Prince. I wonder who it was. And he was Tim? He's not really on the floor that much, said that this would expose the fiberglass, which would then burn. How can I get around this? Is there any way to seal off the fibers once cut? Happy to try anything? Keep up the awesome work and excuse the, yeah, he says, excuse the ghetto note. I was told that you have to say budget now. Oh. Is that true? don't know. Anyway. We've been on the road for 5 weeks now. Regards Rory M. All right, Rory, listen. Fiberglass will not burn. Fiberglass will not burn, fiberglass won't burn because it's glass. However, there might be some problem of fraying at the edges, and it is true that on the edges I've seen because you've seen silpat stars at the at the back
+
+[21:50] at the school that are cut, and they always start getting really brittle and fraying around where they're cut. So there might be something else going on there, but fiberglass itself is glass and hence won't burn. Um, If you want to seal it because you don't want little fibers pulling out and getting brittle and fracturing and breaking apart on you, which I have seen
+
+[22:07] happen. Um, it might be possible to, uh, get some adhesion of silicone on silicone and to actually just paint some silicone on it. The problem is you have to make sure that you get food grade silicones there are. And I don't know if all silicones are compatible with each other. You know what I mean, Stas? And then also you have to be sure that it is indeed silicone, which I think they are. I'm pretty sure the one you're talking about are the ones that JB Prince are the thin brown ones you can kind of see the mesh inside of. Um, but anyway, uh, it might be possible. I don't know, there's Teflon tapes that can handle very high heats, but I, and they're meant for things like vacuum machines on the seal rod, and you might be able to take Teflon tape and put it over the thing, but I'd have to double check to see how high the adhesive temperature can take in those things, because that's going to be your
+
+[22:58] main, your main problem is going to be, uh, the adhesive tape on the, on those Teflon tapes going bad. But I can give a check and then, uh, give a shout out on the Twitter later because
+
+[23:07] they just go to McMaster and look up the, uh, the temperature range on the adheses. Yes, Stas? Make a master. McMaster. We got some spoons coming in in a minute, Rory, and we'll taste your sauce live on the air. Okay. I have a Twitter question if I can just fast track that through. Go ahead. From Mark Hayes and it says gluten-free ramen, alkaline rice noodles,
+
+[23:27] possible, looking for answers. The way you say that reminds me of this. I don't know if I talked about this on the air. I was in Italy many years ago and they had a McDonald's thing. It was a McDonald's ad, and then in Italian underneath, it said, Mick Resisti? Can you resist it? McResisti? Anyway, they stuck in my head for like forever. So, you know, here's the deal. with the ramen noodles, what you're doing is you're trying to strengthen the gluten proteins, right? And so since there aren't those things in there, I don't think you're going to get the firming
+
+[24:08] effect because the firming effect from the alkaline stuff isn't due to a starch bolstering aspect. It's due to a protein bolstering aspect because gluten, the gluten network gets stronger as things become more alkaline. You know, to a point. Now, that said, I believe someone else asked about, you
+
+[24:28] should text, Piper, you know, Piper, who is like our resident gluten-free expert because he himself is gluten-free and is good at researching things. Whoa, wow. I'm going to have to tell him about that bus throw you just did there. But, you know, because he is like that. You'd think he would work on it, but I'm like, Piper, have you thought of anything good with that? He's like, no, it's all garbage. And then, but you know who, uh, you know who, thanks. You know who is not gluten-free, but thinks about this a lot is Mark Ladner from Del Posto.
+
+[24:58] We could ask him see if he's come up with anything, but he doesn't deal with ramen style stuff, right? I mean, specifically, like, it's the budget. I'll think about it. I'll see if anyone has done any research to us. Can you send me like an email to do some research today and then I'll email it back to you and next week we can talk about it. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Uh, right, hey. Josh from San Francisco writes in, hi, Dave, Nastasi, Jack, and Joe recently set up my own home carbonation rig with a £5 CO2 tank.
+
+[25:27] After drinking gallons of soda water, I'd like to try my hand at carbonated cocktails. What are your recommendations for carbonated cocktails to make it home without a centrifuge? I know you mentioned on the last show that you can make your gin and juice recipe using only
+
+[25:39] agar clarification, and I'd like to give that a try. Is clarification absolutely necessary for these recipes? Any other good ones I can try, clarified or not? Thanks and love the show, Josh, from San Francisco. Well, lookie. If you're going to put juice into a carbonated cocktail, and you want to get the kind of levels of carbonation that, you know, that I like, then you're going to need to clarify because otherwise you're going to get just loads and loads of foaming. If you don't want to clarify it and you want to, if you really don't want to clarify, a simple agar clarification is not that difficult. It takes only like a half an hour, Stas hates it. Right? She won't do it. It's one of the things that she refuses to do. You know, that list grows every day. Every day, the list of stuff that Nastasia will refuse. I was emailing you about the gluten-free. I was like, you hate clarifying Agar clarification. I hate agar clarification. will not do that. Yeah, but like I'm saying that list keeps growing. You're like, I've done it? I don't need to do it ever again. I've done it a lot. Remember all that? She hates the, like one time we had, we, so one time we had a problem, right? And we were doing an event for, I don't know, many 100s of people. And we did free staw and something messed up. Like some, somebody messed something up with the freestyle and the freestyle was broken. So then we had to all set it and we needed it within like 2 hours. That was a rancid, rancid day. remember that? We got it done. We got it done. It was just a damn nightmare. Anyhoo. So, look, I mean, you can start out with carbonated cocktails just doing like simple things that aren't clarified. If you like whiskey soda, you can make whiskey soda. I don't happen to like whiskey soda very much, but you can make whiskey sodas. That is not a problem. Just make sure you chill everything. You can then move to what I call fluffing existing cocktails, so just taking tonic and gin, chilling the hell out of them, and then carbonating that. Uh, 42 PSI, if it's roughly -7 or 8 uh, Celsius. But, you know, like, that's the 1st step without having to clarify, then add stuff like lime juice at the end.
+
+[27:39] So if you're gonna do a clarified drink, and and even if you're gonna make your own tonic and or make your own mixers, if you're only adding a small amount of unclarified juice, let's say you're adding a half ounce of lime juice at the end, then just carbonate almost everything and then put the lime juice in at the end, and that's
+
+[27:56] going to be least damaging to your carbonation levels. Alternately, if you have to add something that you know is going to foam, only put a small amount of product in your bottles and carbonate it
+
+[28:06] like, like, instead of 3 times, which was normally what I do with carbonation 3 times. Do it like five, six, seven, 8 times, and really blast all the air off the little nucleation sites that you have inside of the lime juice or whatever juice you're
+
+[28:20] using. You're never going to get as low a foam amount as you would in, and
+
+[28:24] therefore you're never going to get as high a carbonation amount as you would if you, um, clarified it, but, uh, the more you get rid, because
+
+[28:32] there's, there's surface active compounds in the lime juice that cause it to foam no matter what. you will reduce somewhat the amount of foaming you'll get and you'll get a better result with
+
+[28:41] unclarified juice. If you just carbonate many, many times. do you think? Yeah. She's like, but I don't care. I don't care. Phil from Bristol, UK, by the way, I have another question. We got to get to Phil's question before the end. wait, yeah, right? My Phil, right? You're Phil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Phil, but not your Phil, different Phil. Phil from Bristol writes in. Hello to Dave, Nastasia, and the gang. A year or so ago, I had a kick a kick. I can say kick ass, can I? Because it's a movie. Did you like that movie? I had never seen it. You gave me all the synopsis I needed. Yeah. I didn't see the second one. I had a kick-ass piece of eggplant dengaku. In Barcelona, of all places. The miso topping. It, you know, it's the grilled grilled X, Y, or Z with the miso stuff, then Gaku. The miso topping itself was great, but what was truly draw dropping was the
+
+[29:31] eggplant. The center was creamy, but structurally intact. The skin retained its blue black color. I've been trying to recreate this. So far, the closest I've come is by steaming the eggplant and a pressure cooker initially. This reproduces the cream texture and the absence of physical agitation goes some way to maintaining the structure. The absence of cooking in oil also improves, in my opinion, eggplantiness of the eggplant, off
+
+[29:52] topic this pressure steamed pre-cook is also great for fish fragrant eggplant. recipe for which you can get in fuchsia Dunlop's book. I forget which one it's in. I don't think it's land of plenty. I think it's every grain of rice or whatever, the new. Anyway, the fish fragrant eggplant. However, hitting the sweet spot between perfectly cooked and overdone is difficult, because of course, you're in fresh cooker. And the skin still gets that tired. Okay, tired, dull, brown look. That a good one. a good way to describe. I like anyone like trying to describe a tired. Tired, dull brown. Look, can you offer any advice? I know who looked tired. Who? Meredith Viera last night at that award show. What award show? At autism speaks. Oh, she was there? Yeah. Yeah. Tired. Tired. Wow. It's rough. Why are you hating on Meredith Fiera all of a sudden, hating on Meredith Fiera? It brought to mind her face. What the hell? Jack, you getting this? Are you there? Listen to just like, just like hate down, like woman on woman hate down for no reason. woman, I could tell you somebody else looked the tire that was a man. I'll think about it All right, you think about that and try to try to be, you know, equal opportunity with your tired, you know? You know what I used to call, you know, I used to call people who like look tired. I call them Merle, like Merle Haggard, because haggard means haggard, but Merle is also haggard looking. You know I love Merl Haggard. Do I want to hear anything? I love Merle Haggard. Okay. Okay. Off topic, this pressure steam precook, also great for fish fragrant eggplant, which contains no fish, by the way. It's just like in the sauce that you might also cook fish in. Fish fragrant. Anyway, however, hitting the sweet spot between perfectly cooked and overdone is difficult and the skin gets that tired, dull brown look that Meredith Era might
+
+[31:28] enjoy, according to Nastasia. Well, I'm just repeating what she said. I think it's a horrible thing to say and kind of, you know, inappropriate. Okay. so much so that I had to repeat it. Can you offer any advice? Would using pepton methylesterays or something similar be a way of cooking the eggplant without breaking it down? Would an alkaline solution applied to the skin mean that the anthocyanins maintained
+
+[31:48] their would maintain their blueness? And do you have any more advice or getting more eggplantiness out of the eggplant? Thanks for all the great advice down the years and best wishes. Phil from Bristol. Okay, well listen. We handle sign ins, go brown. It sounds like a, like a, like a, like a PSA, they read it, with
+
+[32:04] anthocide, and it's go brown. Uh, when anthrasinis go brown, that's not usually a pH shift problem, right? PH shift problems with anthocyanins are blue to red. So in an alkaline situation, the at the sign, is it going to be more blue? And in acidic situations,
+
+[32:20] and the sign is going to be more red. Uh, and in fact, what you were writing back, and, you know, the Japanese prep, the Denkaku made me think
+
+[32:27] about, in Japan, they have, and I think, I don't know, because they didn't let me see it, but they, the Sukimono, these pickles, they had these, Do you remember these? Did you have them when we were there? or was it after you, when we weren't together? They had those bright blue pickled eggplants at the breakfast. Yeah, they were bright blue. And McGee does. I asked McGee. was like, what the hell, McGee? How did they do this? But I think I was looking up the pH of rice bran pickles, which is, I think, how those are done. And they're only mildly, they're only mildly acidic. Like they're fairly close to neutral, so the emphasyan is going to maintain their blueness. So these pickles are bright blue. I think McGee said that he thinks that they just add food color into it. They just cheat. But, uh, those things are amazing, and it might be true that fermentation in that case is also helping to preserve some of the eggplant color with the
+
+[33:10] anthoscience. Okay. Back to where we're back to what we're supposed to be talking about, which is the color. When stuff goes brown, it's usually a result of 2 things. Either you've cooked it to the point where it's brown, made it crispy, browned it, right? Or you have some sort of enzymatic issue. And, uh, eggplant contains a whole bunch of, and we talked about it earlier in the show with apples, polyphenol oxidase
+
+[33:32] enzymes. And that's why you get a lot of browning and eggplant. Typically, what I do when I pre-treat an eggplant, and when I do when I treat an eggplant, I'm going to fry it or do anything to it, is I'll throw
+
+[33:45] it, and I like eggplants dense because usually I'm doing Italian style prep where I'm going to bread them and fry them because if you don't like eggplant
+
+[33:52] parm, there's something wrong with you, right? That's delicious, right? Eggplant Parm. I make a good egg plant. Eggnog and eggplant parm for things Nastasia likes. Hey, listen, let me say gun cooking issues. Like, like, like, you want, like, you want, like, like, through the hoop, like down to your arm, slam dunk kind of a situation, like elbow slam with
+
+[34:10] stars, any, any hearty Italian fair. What do you think I was gonna say? Sour bench. Oh, yeah, but only certain colors. But I mean, like any hardy Italian fare that's properly done, as long as you cook it right. Nastasia has no patience for undercooked or overcooked pastas or results. I like undercooked pasta. but not zotto. You don't like undercooked risotto. Undercooked risotto is an abomination. You like undercooked pasta? You like the pearl in the center? You're a gross human. I thought we had this discussion. Are you serious? That's the way Mark cooks his pasta. No, I've been to his restaurant many times. He undercooks it a lot more for me and I love. Where's the line between Dente and undercooked for you, Dave? If there's a freaking starch pearl in the center of it, and it looks like the starch is still crystallized, and it hasn't absorbed any water yet. I'm just going to have, you know what? I'm going to give you... give you a feedback and a bag of raw pasta. Let's have him make what I like and let's see what you think if it's if it's okay. We can do an on-air pasta tasting, right? He hates undercooked risotto, right? Ready. If you undercook risotto, you should die. gross. That's strong. Well, I mean, we're all going to die. But, I mean, is when you when you die, you'll be held to task for it if there is an after. You know what I mean? They'll be like, you undercooked risotto. That'll be like one of the things in the list. You know what I mean? You stole that Twinkie, you undercooked risotto. Anyhoo, so what were you talking about? I don't remember. What the hell were you talking about? Okay, Plan Parm. eggplant. So anyway, so if you're like, I think the main problem is, is that you need to cook the eggplant in an absence of oxygen and relatively quickly in order to preserve the
+
+[35:49] color. This is my guess. I wasn't able to find any actual scientific literature on it, but that is my guess. So, uh, you know, your pressure steaming. Uh, probably the issue is, is that oxygen is getting to it as it's being as, as the pressure, as the steam is coming up. Uh, oxygen's getting to it before this stuff. I mean, you might want to try doing a pre-plunge in boiling water before the thing is
+
+[36:11] cooked just to set the anthisyanins at the skin and destroy the polyphenol oxidase enzymes. The problem there is when you cut it, if you haven't inactivated the enzymes all the way through, my guess is that
+
+[36:21] you, uh, you'd still have the issues because the enzymes, if any of the enzymes that aren't inactivated, get to the skin,
+
+[36:28] that stuff will happen. I think, I have to do some tests. But anyways, what I was getting to is if you have a vacuum machine and you
+
+[36:35] put and you, right before you're going to do it, you just slice the eggplant, let's say, into kind of large pieces, night knock grilling pieces, throw them in a vacuum
+
+[36:42] bag. Add some ascorbic acid to it, not a lot. You don't want it tart, but just to get rid of some to, you know, have its antioxidant power be high before it in, suck a vacuum on it. The flesh will condense and go bright green as it condenses and the skin will maintain its color. And then if you blanch off in the bag, you should be able to maintain a perfect color on the
+
+[37:02] eggplant. Then you can cut it out of the bag and do any finished cooking you do. You will affirm the inside because you're going to get rid of all of the air that's on the inside. You will have, if you salted it right when you threw it in the bag. You'll also have gotten some of the liquid out that makes it soggy. And lastly, but not leastly, because it's condensed, it will be more eggplanty. What do you think? Yeah? Is that an answer? They'll do that today. Yeah? eggplant farm. It's a lot of work. Our vacuum machine works, right? Oh, you mean just vac it and then take it home and fry it off or whatever? Why, do you have to cook dinner for someone? No. Me. Well, good news about eggplant parm. sucker keeps. Oh, let's try before we get kicked off the air today because we have to leave it strict one o'clock. Why don't we taste the 90 mile mile capsicum sauce from due north in New Zealand? There we go. There, take. I remember, it's on a sweeter side. not like a hot, it's not like a hot pepper sauce. It's not a sweet set. It's good. It's good, right? It's like an intense pepper flavor, but like some sweetness. really good. I like it. Rory, I think that you make a good product. That's a hat trick of things Nastasia likes too. Yeah, you want to Hey, Jack, you want to come in here and try it? Have you tried Peppadoo peppers before? There's a definite note of that kind of peppadoo kind of flavor. Let me try some. Yeah, there's a... I don't know a ton. I don't know what the sugar ratio. It's a sweet sweet pepper sauce. But it's got like a mild heat at the end. Get to the what? Next question. Stats, keeping me on task, on task. All right. Wait, wait. Oh my gosh, some of the questions are gone. Oh, here they are. Okay. Um, the evening bruise. What do you think, Jack? Yeah? Yeah, nice. All right. The evening bruise writes in and says, how do you make your hop tincture and how do you use it? So, uh, we made the hot tincture, and all we do is we take a very high, um, uh,
+
+[38:51] hops with very high alpha acids, meaning very bitter. roughly 13%. It's called Simcoe. I also happen to like the aroma of it. We take 15 grams of that, half ounce. And we put it into, shoot, I think it's 250 mils of vodka, 40% vodka. I put throw that in an ISI whipper, put 2 chargers on that. So it's high pressure, shake the hell out of it, and just let it sit for a half an hour, vent it off, and then pour it out.
+
+[39:18] Now, here's what's interesting about it, is that I was extremely nervous about this
+
+[39:23] thing because it's so so hoppy about it getting skunked. But the fact of the matter is it doesn't get skunked. Like, I haven't had it skunk out. I'm going to run one more test on it because I have another one to see whether the flavor
+
+[39:36] is changed if I actually heat it in the ISI for a little bit.
+
+[39:40] Maybe I can, uh, do some more like isomerization of the uh, of the humulons in there and then maybe it would skunk out later. I don't know. I'm gonna run some more tests. But I also, you know, I like it in drinks and seltzer, it's good. I like it. It's good. It's good product, right? Okay. Now, Jason Molinaria cured me puts in a comment about the refrigerator and humidity that we had before,
+
+[40:02] and he says, at cooking issues, fridges run about 30% relative humidity at 38 degrees Fahrenheit, which means it can hydrate or slash
+
+[40:10] dehydrate, depending on the item, as we had suspected on the air. You can drive pancetta in the fridge, but it will ruin Brit Hole, right? Yeah. I was like, don't care. Uh, M. Nielsen writes in, uh, uh, he is at OS
+
+[40:26] web guy at OS web guy. At Cooking Issues. I notice you keep mentioning Sandra Cat's art of fermentation. Do you have any other required readings, thinking of gifts. I said I would think about it and get back to it. But here's the here's the issue. Uh, like a lot of the books that I keep going back to aren't necessarily recipe
+
+[40:44] books. It's just books that I've fallen in love with for one reason or another. I think that for gifts, a really amazing gift, if someone has the bookshelf space for it, is to go on eBay or ABE books, because it's hard to buy them. They're expensive when you buy them as a complete set. There's, I think, 20 and change volumes, but the entire time life, uh, the time life, foods of the
+
+[41:05] World Series from the late 60s to early 70s is still one of the great achievements of, uh, kind of, you know, back in the day,
+
+[41:16] time life had all these libraries. You're like, Library of the Wild West. Library of the Air War in Europe, library, blah, blah. You know what I mean? But this is really, really amazingly well done. And I make it a habit, kind of a dumb habit. People are like, what the hell are you talking about? Anytime I meet someone from a country, uh, that, uh, where that's published, I'm one of those books, I'm like, hey, you see any uh,
+
+[41:38] timelife uh, foods of the world about your uh, by your homeland there? Yeah? You like it? And they're always like, yeah, you know what I mean? They always like it, which is a really good sign. It's got a lot of documentation, amazing pictures. They hired amazing writers. It's not a recipe book. Like the recipes are actually in a whole separate series of volumes that you have to get, little spiral bound
+
+[41:56] guys, but just really fantastic cultural document. And I go back to that all the time. Another wacky one. that's perverse is, uh, 0 my god, the name of it just went out of my head. I always just call it Peloprat. It's the art of modern French cooking or modern, whatever. Pella Pratt is what everyone calls it. And there's a bunch of different editions. The edition that's from, uh, I think like the late 70s or early 80s has like the most over the top weird color photographs in it of like just demented preparations.
+
+[42:24] Love that sucker. I go back and look at that all the time with the pictures. And on that same note, because they came out by the same American or English publisher,
+
+[42:31] is, um, Oh my gosh, what's it, the hex it called? My brain's got erased, is the international buffet book. It's the same thing. but it's like, it's like all of the, all of the highly touched food that no one likes anymore, like lobsters that are split open on the back, sliced, gelled with aspic, and like layered all over the lobster, but like, just, like, you
+
+[42:51] know the 1000000000s of tiny hands have touched tiny. I't know why they're tiny. Have touched like the lobster everywhere and like aspects and gels everywhere. I love looking at that just for like straight up crazy, crazy talk, right? Um, I mean, obviously, on the newer side, for what, you know, I do for a living, modernist, the modernist cuisine book, you kind of have to go get that,
+
+[43:10] right? I mean, if you don't have it already and if you have a lot of money. Um, let me think. I'll think I'll think of some, I'll think of some more of it. Like, these are the ones that, like, whenever I want inspiration, I go and look at those time life books because I can basically, you know, cherry pick from around the world just by going to
+
+[43:25] it. Then when I have like, you know, a specific question on specific problem, like tofu, I haven't gotten the new one yet, so I go to shirt leaf,
+
+[43:33] uh, fermentation, I go hit cats. Uh, oh, dub, McGee's book. I'm assuming anyone that listens to this already has on food and cooking, right? You got to have that. That's like the prime reference for most of the things that I do for hydrocoloids. If you're, you know, a friend is a science-y or nerd like that you want to get for a handbook of hydrocoloids is
+
+[43:51] pricey and they have a newer edition of it. So I think it might be up to date. It wasn't up to date for a while, but I think they might have a new edition that's up to date. I'll try to think of some more. Maybe we'll give a couple book recommendations each time. That'd be fun, Stas. But yeah, you want to give like a mini like book, like just book review thing, kind of like not review, but like books that are good to get. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We'll do that. Anyway, hopefully that gets you started. Fills question. What? No, I was a feels question because we're going to get kicked off the air pretty soon. So why don't you why don't you give Phil's question for me since then? First question is, what can you substitute for tilapia? Because all other fish is so expensive? Mm, yeah. Uh, well, uh, you could just substitute dirt. Or you can substitute, I mean, tilapia. Okay, look. Uh, everybody knows that everybody hates tilapia. Does anyone like tilapia? don't think so. No, right. Nobody likes it, right? Yeah. Jack, you like it? Nope. It's bad, right? It's bad fish It's bad fish. Here's the thing. You know how there's the, you know how there's like the, this one you got from Taiwan. Remember that label I sent you? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, it's just it's garbage. Here the deal. You know the old phrase they are, you are what you eat. And in some ways, that's true. Like, take the pig, for instance, right? So depending on what a pig eats, right? The fatty acid component of the of the fat in a pig will change based on what it eats. So if it eats, you know, a lot of nuts, it'll have an oily fat base in its meat and the fat structure will change. If it eats a lot of, you know, grain of corn, it's going to have a firmer fat, right? Uh, because in essence, uh, in a way, uh, it is what it eats. However, right? The pig is kind of is a gift from the heavens in that it takes garbage,
+
+[45:41] right? And doesn't like make itself into garbage. It's not a pig is not a walking piece of garbage. A pig transforms uh, garbage into amazing, delicious food, right? It's kind of like it is an, it is like the, uh, it's like an alchemist. It touches lead and turns it to gold. It touches apples that are full of worms and have fallen on the ground and are useless and turns them into delicious pig flesh, right? It takes the whey slop that's left over from making
+
+[46:14] Parmesan cheese and turns it into prosciutto de parma, right? It takes whatever crap you have lying around and turns it into pig meat. And I don't see how anyone can argue with that, right? That's straight up delicious. Now take the tilapia on the other hand. The tilapia is the living, breathing, swimming embodiment of filth and garbage. It lives in filth and garbage and is filth and garbage. There is a uh, a compound called Giasmin, which tastes like dirt, and is produced by the bacteria that live in the filthy, filthy, fresh, crappy pools where they grow this monstrosity of a fish.
+
+[46:59] The very best thing you can say about a tilapia is that it has no no flavor at all. You're like, you're like, man, that was a good tilapia. I couldn't taste it at all. Right? The other thing you can do. Uh, with tilapia. With anything, it's kind of contaminated with jasmin, like for instance, certain catfish, is if you acidify the hell out of it, right? Then that kind of takes away some of that diasmin flavor. Geozmin, whatever you pronounce it, takes it away, right? Somewhat. Uh, you know, masks it actually chemically uh, removes the smell of that stuff. Uh, so people were like, your tilapia is great in the fish taco, are you sure it wasn't all the freaking toppings that you put on the taco and you could have put
+
+[47:40] anything like a human finger in the taco and you would have thought it was good? You know what I mean? Had nothing to do with the tilapia itself. It has to do with all the crazy topics. And this isn't even an argument I have all the time. This is why people who make meat analogs that are poorer quality. people are working on a high-end meat analogs. not ranking on them. But, you know, one of the arguments of people who make meat analogs is, well, people can't taste and meat anyway, right? So what they're shooting for is exactly the kind of person who is okay with the tilapia, because they don't really care about the flavor of the product itself, because they're just
+
+[48:15] going to sauce the they're going to overcook the hell out of it anyway. So inequality that's going to be there is going to be destroyed. And then they're going to sauce the bejesus out of it so that it doesn't really matter what the substrate tastes like. So yeah, it might as well be texturized vegetable protein underneath it. Now, it is now, I've never had texturized vegetable protein with the exact texture of a fish, but
+
+[48:32] at least texturized vegetable protein doesn't taste like dirt. Uh, another thing you could do is Jasmin is a, uh, or Jasmin, how
+
+[48:40] you pronounce it is, uh, is a, uh, a component in beats. So if you want, you could just grind up some beet puree. Don't peel it, though, because you want to get most of that dirty stuff in, right? Puree that sum gun. You can cook it, puree it, dehydrate it to a powder, and then just encrust the tilapia in more dirt beady flavor, right? Right? Yeah, tilapia. You know, here's the thing. You know what tilapia is going to be good for? Like, here's a good thing. Tilapia, like the fact that it can grow in filth and garbage, it makes it really great for these like aquaponic culture things where the plants have their roots and then
+
+[49:17] they in the thing and they just feed garbage to tilapia. tilapia eats the garbage, produces tilapia, i.e. garbage, and then poops, and the
+
+[49:26] poop is eaten by bacteria, which then make the nitrogen from the tilapia poop into stuff that the plants can eat,
+
+[49:33] right? And then the plants grow, and then they have like a greenhouse over it, and they heat the whole sucker with compost so that you can live in Wisconsin somewhere and produce like,
+
+[49:42] like zillions of pounds of poor quality food in, uh, but, you know, wherever. It's nutrition wise, it's not poor quality. just tastes in like a box without a lot of inputs. And that's very interesting. So it seems to me that tilapio will rule the world when we're colonizing
+
+[49:56] space and we're all living in kind of micro gravity, like centripetal gravity,
+
+[50:02] uh, uh, space stations that are spinning to keep the water on the outside of the space stations so that the
+
+[50:07] tilapia can be spinning around. And they need these kind of self, like made systems. Like, you know, when you go to the museum, natural history, and they have those giant glass spheres that have like 3 brine shrimp in it and like the little
+
+[50:18] plant and they just, it's a constant cycle. So when we're living like that, then tilapia is the way to go. Otherwise, substitute dirt fill. Cooking issues.
+
+[50:33] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and
+
+[0:06] turkeys, for more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Is, she's coming to live from the Burnus Pizza Inn, Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12. roughly 1245 or one, something like that. Hey, Stas, how you doing? Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. Joined, as usual, with Nostasia the Hammer Lopez and the guys in the engineering booth. How you guys doing over there? Just Jack today. Just Jack? Old school. Old school. You know, you know, no offense to anyone else, but, you know. Feels good to have the Jess Jack. Thanks, guys. Yeah, Jack Jack's the man. Jack Insley, a.k.a. the man. You got anything good going on the heritage radio networks that we need to know about? Your website launch. Yeah, when is that going to happen? When did it go up? We had a little soft launch happen last week and it's up now. We also have our own kind of like storefront in the iTunes store now. So you can see Heritage Radio Network has its own kind of channel. And right now on the front page, they're featuring our Alice Waters evolutionaries. Kind of Alice's life story, is on the front page of the iTunes podcast store. Oh nice. That's fun. Let me ask you a question. Do we sell anything other than us? Nope. All right. That's why you should donate Yes, yes. All right, well, that's good news. I gonna go check that out. Did you already tell these guys, like a little blurb on what they're going to get out of the new website, what it's going to do that they couldn't get before from the
+
+[1:51] heritage radio. The new website features an entire kind of new department of in-house produced content. So we've got 6 sort of categories, pleasure health news, opinion, business science and technology, and we're both from the programs weekly, and then just from scratch in the office putting together
+
+[2:09] in-house content. So kind of transitioning to more news, more reporting, stuff like that. It's really good stuff. All right, then. Well, uh, this case and questions. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. And just so you guys know, I can't personally check my tweets during the show because I'm talking during the show. So if you have questions you want to tweet in, if you don't want to call in, tweet it to
+
+[2:35] at Heritage Radio Network, is that right, Jack? It's at Heritage underscore radio. Shows what the hell I know. You know what? How is it that I know nothing? How long did it take me, Jack, to memorize our telephone number? Yeah, it's still a process. Took like a year and a half for me to memorize our telephone number. whatever. So Devin Stone tweeted in at Cooking Issues. Trader Joe's sells most of their protein in vacuum bags, some clear, some black. Are they low temperature safe? Devon, I wasn't able to find anything off the bat on the composition of the Trader Joe's
+
+[3:03] bags, and I dreaded, but I will do during the next week, fighting my way up the corporate ladder to find a human being who knows what the hell's going on, but everyone knows what a pain in the butt it is to deal with corporations like that, right, Stas?
+
+[3:16] But I will tell you something about Trader Joe's. you know, Styles, what are your feelings on Trader Joe's? They're okay. Well, what do you really think? don't like their Hawaiian shirts. You don't like their Hawaiian shirts? Yeah. Well, you know, I always kind of like, I was fine with Trader Joe's. I have no problem with Trader Joe's. until I found this out. You ready for this? Are you familiar with the Bread and Life? Bread and Life is like, they provide food for people that don't have it and they take donations. They're in Brooklyn, actually. Yeah, yeah, you know, Brad. Yeah, good friends at station. Well, Jack, you might be interested to know this, and I'm not telling anyone to change their buying behavior based on this, but a lot of the big food purveyors
+
+[3:50] around like Whole Foods and whatnot, right? They will give their, uh, like the day before their stuff is going to expire. They'll take it off the shelves, and they'll give it to organizations like bread and life, who will instantly cook with it so that they can get it out before the expiry date, right?
+
+[4:05] And then they're not throwing away or wasting all this food, right? That makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah, Trader Joe's doesn't, because they think it's too much of a hassle. They specifically destroy the food, throw it out in dumpsters instead of giving it to bread and life because they think it's going to be too much of a hassle. So that I know, yeah, so I know some of the higher ups at bread and life, uh, you know, have stopped buying at Trader Joe's. And, uh, you know, my wife encourages me to stop buying at Trader Joe's. I haven't done enough research yet, but I mean, I'm hoping this is just, that's just like some sort of like corporate, like, brain, whatever you want to call
+
+[4:37] it on the air and that they maybe could change their policies. But if anyone who's listening knows anyone at Trader Joe's and wants to, I don't know, comment on that or have maybe figure out a way to change their policies. Because
+
+[4:49] literally the bread and life people were told, it's just too much of a headache for us to give all this free food that we're going to throw away to all the people who need it.
+
+[4:55] That sucks, right, Jack? See, now with their in-house kind of production, I'm thinking we're going to have to call Trader Joe's and get a comment, follow up on this.
+
+[5:03] Yeah, because that's crap, right? We'll report back to you. is crap. That is crap. That is what we hear at the Harris Radio Network like to refer to as a load of crap. With a caller on the line. Oh, okay. Call her. on the air. Hey, this is John Doe. Hey, how you doing? I was going to call out one of your tweets there that you, let me let me find it here. There it is. Finally made fish sauce cured bacon. Freaking delicious. I saw the picture. So tell us about it. So, um, basically, uh, Piper gave me the, um, base
+
+[5:34] brine, and, uh, I just replaced the, the salt with fish sauce, and it was actually around, um, 8%, so then, um, I just boosted it a bit to get to the 12.5 and then just added brown
+
+[5:48] sugar, and water, uh, to the appropriate percentages to, to get the, the brine.
+
+[5:54] Then, uh, left it in the fridge. Uh, probably a little bit longer than I should have, so it was slightly over salted, but I compensated by doing just like, uh, a couple stages of, uh,
+
+[6:07] dilution, uh, and just water. Um, that's actually one of the questions I call, I, I've been calling you about, but, uh, so, so then, uh, you know, tried it for a few days to build a
+
+[6:19] telico and then just smoked it, um, for a couple hours with, uh, mesquite and it came out really awesome. Um, but the funny story is, um, when I had 1st cured it, when I had
+
+[6:30] discove, when I had discovered that it was way too salty, I pretty much
+
+[6:35] stunk out the whole house. Oh, yeah. People were pretty upset with me, but that was, that was funny.
+
+[6:41] It was still very good, but it was just really powerful and, and, um, somewhat inconsumable, but, I mean, you could put in stuff, but then, I just did the dilution, and that ended up working
+
+[6:53] out, so, actually, my question is, um, is there some way to come up with, like, um, a concentration such that you take care of, you know, the botulism, all the, all the, you know, all the bad things that come along with it, without having to figure out the exact time,
+
+[7:11] like, basically leave it In there, indefinitely, uh, without having to worry too much about, you know, being
+
+[7:17] under oversaulted. Is there some sort of cross, um, basically a crossing between optimal flavor
+
+[7:24] and um, and handling all the, the microbes that you don't want in there. Well, sure. I mean, you, I mean, the, the, things like botulism you're going to take care of with uh, nitrice. Did you add nitrites to it? Yes I did. Yeah, okay. So I mean, like, and the nitrite concentrations are small enough. You know, you don't have to use, uh, where you're using what we're using a prague powder or we're using like a salt with nitrites in it. I was using um, what's uh, what's referred to as pink salt? I think it was called colon nitrates in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in order, you don't need to add enough, like that stuff's not going to radically increase the saltiness of your
+
+[8:00] of your product because you're not going to be adding that much relative to the quantity of what would normally be regular white salt to it,
+
+[8:06] right? Okay. So, you know, it's the pink salt that's going to take care of the beasties that you're really worried about. Like, you know, the ones that are that will grow perhaps if you were going to cold smoke or hold it, right? So you're, you know, so that's going to take care of that stuff. And you said you added extra salt to the fish sauce, right? Yeah, it was an 8%, so I brought it up to 12.5 , which is, I believe, to be
+
+[8:28] the, uh, the basic, uh, brine for a bacon. Yeah, well I mean, you can do various different brine concentrations. I'd have to look up exactly kind of what the minimums are, but you're not holding it for a long time. You know what I mean? So, I mean, if the nitrite levels are high enough to inhibit things like botulism and to get a good pink cure, which I saw the
+
+[8:48] picture. sucker's pink, right? So, yeah. So, I mean, that's going to take care of a lot of a lot of those problems. Another thing, you're saying that it was unbearable, the salt or the aroma? Have you tried? Did you try pre-cooking the fish sauce a little bit to blast off some of the volatiles? Uh, well, what I had done was, I just, yeah, so what I had done it was I, I took it, you know, once it came out of the brine, I just took it out immediately to cook it just to taste how, how much fall penetration was in it, so I think I had some excess. It was still pretty wet. Right. So, that, that's why a lot of, you know, it, it was pretty stinky, so. No, I mean, did you, did you cook the, did you like boil the fish sauce a little bit before you use it as a brine? Oh no, I didn't. I just did it straight. Right. That might mellow it a little bit, um, in terms of how it smells after it comes out. I have never done any side by side, but it's always been my mental perception when
+
+[9:42] I that heated fish sauce tastes very different or smells very different from unheated fish
+
+[9:48] sauce, but that could just be because once it fills up the kitchen and it's combining with the ingredients that it just smells totally different once it's
+
+[9:55] combined. don't know. But, you know, it's always been my feeling that like something's volatilizing off of the fish sauce that kind of rounds it out and makes
+
+[10:03] it, um, less offensive to the people around who might not love fish sauce as much as we do.
+
+[10:08] That's a fair point. I would consider that. Yeah, I mean, it might be hard to love fish sauce as much as I do. I mean, you know, and be, you know, from the east coast of America, because that stuff is just straight up delicious. What brand of fish sauce did you use? Um, I forget what brand it was, but I, I found a, I found a brand
+
+[10:28] that um, didn't have any of the, uh, uh, the fake hydrogenated vegetable proteins. Yeah, I can, I can follow you. I can uh shoot you a picture of it. I forget exactly which brand it was. I think it was the one with the baby on the front. Oh, yeah, I forget the name of that one. I've done a I did once like years ago, like 4 years ago or something. I did a side by side of a lot of the ones that were available in kind of the local markets around
+
+[10:52] lower Manhattan where I live. And, uh, I mean, as anyone who knows, listen to me, there's a lot of Japanese fish sauce out there that I love, and there's one that's not really available here that's made with, uh, Ishiri, and there's a bunch of different Ishiris, uh,
+
+[11:06] and one of them is called, uh, one of them's from Squid, solely from Squid Guts. And that sucker is amazing because it's extremely meaty. And that's the one that I think tastes as close to Sally Granger, who's
+
+[11:18] the, she's the fish, the Garum, Roman fish sauce expert, and she's done a lot of recreations of recipes in large
+
+[11:24] tanks as part of her PhD thesis. on fish sauce, and she's done a lot of work with Apicius, and she and her husband did a translation slash adaptation of Apicius for, you know, I don't know, maybe seven, 8 years ago, that is, I think, the best one that's available in terms of historical accuracy of
+
+[11:40] cooking, because it starts from the, it starts from the premise that they actually met what they said when they were writing as opposed to
+
+[11:47] somebody earlier, like the Dover publication, who's, I forget who's the translator on that, just, you know, kind of plays fast and loose with it. assuming that we moderns know better about cooking than they did back then when it's always better to assume that someone who's writing about something is writing about
+
+[12:00] it. Well, you know, uh, but, uh, anyhow, so I tasted her fish sauce, uh, number of years ago that was, uh, the
+
+[12:07] garam sosyaram, which was made from uh, mackerel guts in her case and aged for, I think, 2 or 3 years. And that was very close to this one Japanese Ishiri, and the difference between it and normal fish sauce is it had much more of a kind of canned meat, hammy,
+
+[12:22] bacon-y flavor than your standard fish sauces. But of the standard fish sauces. I mean, the ones that a lot of people like, like, for instance, like the 3 crabs or whatever it is, is like super doped
+
+[12:33] with, with, you know, isolates, protein isolates. Um, uh, the one that my favorite uh, is uh, Tiperos, which isn't the one with the baby on the front, but that of the commercial easy ones to get. I like that one. I believe Tiperos is out of Thailand, but I'm not sure. I never, you know, every, every, everyone from, uh, you know, from that area of the world argues about who's got the best fish sauce, you know,
+
+[12:55] that, what are you going to do? So, yeah, so I wouldn't, I mean, like, we, I can look it up, but I wouldn't worry about, like, uh, it being unsafe with having just the 8% on a, on a, on a brine like
+
+[13:06] that. And then, you know, then you'll get, you know, relatively more fish sauce flavor versus salt
+
+[13:12] flavoring, which might be good. And try, I would just do a side by side where you just boil a small sample of fish sauce and then taste it versus the raw just side by side after they cool to see what happens.
+
+[13:22] Okay. Just one more quick question on the, you know how I did that ice cream cone with the microwave cake? Yes, also on my tweet, in case you guys ever follow my tweets. Um, so the, um, one question I had was we were trying to just, uh, draw patterns on a plate or be able to build, you know, little structures to be able to put other dessert things next to it.
+
+[13:45] Um, and I was wondering if some sort of hydrocolid or some sort of thicker that could add to it, that would still allow the, the, uh, the
+
+[13:54] boxing effect of microwaving, um, but hold more structure. Is there a, is there a lot of dairy in the cake? Um, no, it's actually just, um, I think it ends up being half a stick of butter, 4 tablespoons of butter. Um, it's mostly uh, it's mostly egg and then um, uh, egg white powder. If you prehydrate methyl cellulose, uh, from the either A or SG series, a fairly viscous one, if you prehydrate that in water to a fairly high degree, so it's kind of pasty, and then fold that into the mix, that will, um, that will gelatinize after,
+
+[14:34] so what you need to pre-foam that, right? So you pre-foam that, uh, and then if you have egg white or
+
+[14:41] xanthan or something in there that's holding the structure. See, the issue with these with these things is that with cakes, there is you need to have structure beforehand, right? And that's what holds the bubbles as they grow. And then you need to have structure, you need to have structure afterwards, which is the starch that sets.
+
+[14:59] So, you know, years and years ago, I was working with Johnny
+
+[15:03] Ezzini, and one of the things we did for a demonstration we were working on was a no
+
+[15:08] protein, um, you know, cake, uh, like Asian boot cake style, but without that kind of bite of egg protein. And we worked it out with methyl cellulose. And we would foam with an ISI cancer, EC canister into molds. We would foam a cake batter mix that had, as a portion of it, hydrated metal cellulose, the issue, and it
+
+[15:27] worked because the metal cellulose, it was already foamed. The metal cellulose would gel as it heated, it gelled, it held the structure in the same way that a protein will hold the structure in a cake. And then after it was cooked, the starch took over. Problem is is that it has bad interactions with dairy. Uh, you know, like methal cellulose doesn't necessarily um, react well or work well in uh, high dairy applications. Okay. I'll give it a go and let you know how it works out. Cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much. All right. Talk you soon. We got a tweet pink salt for bacon? Yeah, you don't use pink salt for bacon? That was a question mark? That was question mark, yeah. Yeah. No? I mean to someone, like, like, I, okay, look, if you go to, if you go to what's it called? If you, you know, pink salt, by the way, for those, you don't know, what they do is, is they mix, there's 2 different kinds of pink salt, ones that have nitrites in them, which are the ones that we normally
+
+[16:18] use, and ones that have nitrates. You only want to use nitrates for long cured things like country hams and
+
+[16:24] whatnot because nitrates break down over time into nitrites. And so in short cured thing like bacon, you're only supposed to use nitrites. And nitrites, I mean, look, this is all the top of my head. So it could be that like a huge portion of my brain was erased somehow and that like my data is totally wrong, which
+
+[16:42] say if someone please tweet and tell me. But, uh, you know, when people, like, for instance, let's say you go to Whole Foods and you buy what's called uncured bacon, they should put giant ass quotes, giant quotes, I mean, around that because what happens is, is they
+
+[16:53] use, uh, food stuffs like celery that are very, very high in
+
+[16:57] nitrites, and then they just, uh, purify, I guess, remove the flavor and, you know, greatly purify, uh, concentrate the amount of
+
+[17:05] nitrites, you know, that are in the celery itself, right? Such that that is strong enough to cure the bacon. Bacon that is actually uncured looks like roast pork, right? And tastes like salted roast pork, which is not bad. A bacon. You know what I mean? And I'm pretty sure that they add the pink color to the salts just so that you don't accidentally use it as salt. And I'm virtually certain. I would say 99.99% certain that, uh, and I always forget they're called prague powders or insecure powders. I never remember whether it's number one or number two. I just can't remember because I choose not to. They uh, they color it uh, pink. Now, if you get nitrites in the form of tender quick. Morton's tender quick. That is NACL, regular salt, mixed with sodium nitrite in a dosage that's meant to be used straight, and that sucker is not pink. So if you're using tender quick or what's called, you know, that kind of a curing salt on a bacon, then, uh, which is, you know, it can be recommended because there's no possibility really of error with
+
+[18:06] it. But anyway, so someone tweet on it and tell me that, you know, my brain was erased because there's always a good chance. All righty. Should we take a break? Keep going? All right, Stas says, keep going, so I'll keep going. Christian Spinello at Eat the Pig. tweeted in. Listen to a backshow where you talked about octopus and was curious if there is an anesthesis step. Step. And anesthesia step. Why is that so hard? you try it. Anesthesia step. Yeah, I don't know, Stas is good at that stuff because, yeah, anyway. Or Ikuji makes that for them. Piper, by the way. get Piper drunk. Not difficult. Says that says that tongue twisters are like he hates tongue twisters. He won't say it. are the poor man's pun. But to me, they're unrelated. Like the tongue twister is unrelated to a pun. Who the hell knows what he was talking about, right? He was in the car, so I wasn't drunk. Well, well, who knows? Love you, Piper. I'm sure he's listening and now I'm going to have to put up with that all day. He's never listens except for today's gonna listen just so that he can hear that and then give me give me crap. for being the bad person that I am, right? Give you pink salt. Give me, oh. Wow. Okay. So that is a very interesting question. Christian. And one that I can't believe that we haven't thought about before. And part of the issue is that I've never purchased a live
+
+[19:33] octopus at a market. Have either of you guys ever had that live tiny octopus on a chopstick? really, I don't really want. not that I wouldn't eat it. someone handed it to me. It's not in my thing. You know what I mean? That, uh, the reason why, uh, it's super interesting is that, you know, as I said, you know, many times, cephalopods, um, you know,
+
+[19:53] octopus, uh, and some squid in particular, but really octopus are kind of the geniuses of the invertebrate world.
+
+[19:59] They're extremely smart, but they, they're very bizarre in that they, their brains don't function the same way ours do. They are not put together the same way. Now, they're, uh, neuron, you know, the neuron transmission works the same way because, you know, nerves had already developed by that time.
+
+[20:14] And so they function in similar pathways, but their nervous system, and their way of cognition, however you want to put it, right? And I think that the, you know, I think we're all past this idea that, um, animals are somehow just machines that can be, uh, you know, that, you know, have no sort
+
+[20:32] of uh, inner, inner, inner life or workings at all. I think we're, you know, we're kind of past that as a society. don't you think so? I mean, very few people think that anymore. I think, you know, there's a bunch of hardcore scientists who kind of believe that, but it's almost the equivalent of solipsism on an individual basis to believe that we are the only animals that have some sort of inner
+
+[20:53] life. It doesn't really make any sense. But, you know, the question is, you know, does a clam really think about a lot? Is there an inner life to a clam? I don't think so. But the closely related octopus, I mean, it can do some pretty complicated and amazing
+
+[21:06] things, and can learn some pretty complicated and amazing things. So I think it would be a little disingenuous to think that an octopus doesn't have some sort of inner life going on, whether or not
+
+[21:15] they're they're aware of their own existence or not, whether, you know, that's unclear. But it is very interesting to think about what anesthesia and particular what Ikigime
+
+[21:25] might do to them. Now, Ikujime is a, you know, a set of Japanese fish filling techniques. But in the larger sense, you know, we're not referring to any particular traditional or even newer Japanese killing
+
+[21:37] technique. when we're talking about this subject. We're talking about the, um, purposeful, quick killing of an animal, in this case, fish, because he
+
+[21:45] continued means, you know, fish killing. In a way that increases their quality. And typically when you think about fish and I don't want to get stuck into arguments of, you know, what
+
+[21:56] is the fish actually feeling? The question is, is do things that seem like less stressful ways of killing the animal, right, from just from an anthropomorphic
+
+[22:05] thing. Let's not even talk about being rigorous. Do things that seem like they would make sense to reduce the stress of slaughter, like anesthesia, like taking the brain out right away. muscle stress in a sense, like destroying the spinal cord so that there's no more impulses coming from the spinal cord to the muscles to use up the ATP to cause rigor, which is why you want to destroy the spinal cord and some strong swimming
+
+[22:27] fish, like bass and tuna. So the question is, is things like that that make sense from a human perspective as reducing stress. Do they have an effect in the taste? Now, you don't even have to think about what's going on in the inner mind
+
+[22:40] or the fish because you have a much more verifiable
+
+[22:45] result. Things that look like they cause less stress cause the animal to taste better when you eat it. So there is there is an effect. So it's like humane, whatever that means, killing techniques somehow align in this case, and hopefully in as many cases as we can see, align with best practices from a food preparation standpoint.
+
+[23:06] Now, in an octopus, I came across a site, I'm looking forward here. www Nietzsche Nietzsche rayfresh.co.jp. And they do octopus and they say some interesting stuff. They say they're octop they're octopi, but they say octopuses when they when they translated, are caught one at a time using pot traps. It said that only strong, healthy octopuses enter the pot
+
+[23:31] traps, while the shallow waters are still abundantly full with prey. This enables us to capture strong, firm limbed octopuses of the highest quality. Unlike the trawling method, this harvest method does not disturb the harvesting waters, and it also prevents over harvesting making it much better for the environment and for resource conservation. That's really interesting, just on a loan on that standpoint, because the idea that you want to catch a
+
+[23:53] good, strong octopus, and they, those are the ones that go into pot traps, it kind of makes sense because, you know, they like to hide,
+
+[24:00] right? So, I mean, I don't really know what an octopus pot trap looks like, but they might go in there thinking they're hiding and they get trapped, right? Whereas it's a well-known fact that as soon as a male octopus, uh, donates its sperm or everyone call it to the female octopus, that it goes, like it's called senility, it goes insane, senescence, it goes crazy and just starts wandering around on the bottom of the ocean floor so that it can get picked apart by whatever
+
+[24:23] uh, prey you want. So then you're getting kind of crappy. Yeah, or and on the flip side, as soon as the female lays its eggs, it stops eating and sits in the
+
+[24:33] cave, like blowing water over the eggs to keep things from growing on it and guarding them against, you know, predators.
+
+[24:40] And then as soon as the, uh, the baby's hatch, she wanders out to get picked apart,
+
+[24:44] eaten, and died into nescence. So, yeah, so you want a nice, good tasting octopus that hasn't gone into sedescence already. You got to get one that still has its self-preservation instincts intact. Um, so, uh, Stas is looking something up she can talk about in a minute because I don't have time to look at the picture right now. Uh, but she's going to, what do you got a picture of this? It's a picture of a Japanese octopus pot trap with a calm happy octopus. And it does look a lot like a cave, an octopus might go, and it makes sense. And it literally says calm, happy octopus. And the name of the trap is taco isubo. Taco isubo. Anyway, so I thought that was really interesting. And then here's the other thing that they say is they say then that they practice Ikigime on it to kill it very quickly. Now, there's a, there's an article there uh, that's available in September. It's available September 2013, and the Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology, called
+
+[25:37] the Identification and Management of Pain, Suffering, and Distress Encephalopods, including anesthesia,
+
+[25:42] analgesia, Gesia, and humane killing. Uh, and it's by Paul uh, Andrews at all. And, yes, this fairly recent article. And it's extremely interesting. So they, for those of you that are interested. And it is an interesting subject, and we don't have time to go into it now, but they go over, uh, all of the markers that human beings would look in a in a supposedly non-anthropomorphic way, although it doesn't make sense to think of it, really, in an unanamorphic
+
+[26:11] way, of how you would judge whether or not something is experiencing pain to the degree that uh, that animal should be protected in a research environment. And then it goes on to figure to try and figure out whether or not we can prevent those sorts of pain. And pain, remember, is different from no seception. is getting complicated for a radio show, but no seception is the idea that there is a noxious
+
+[26:35] stimulus and animals go away from it. So you take a cockroach and you put fire next to the cockroach, cockroach moves away from the fire. Are they experiencing pain? I don't know. Or are they just responding to the heat in the way that a sensor, you know, a smoke detector sensor responds to
+
+[26:52] smoke, right? So a response to what human would consider a noxious stimulus is no seception. Pain is a consciousness state that has to do with whether or not the animal understands that something is going on and feels some sort of
+
+[27:05] distress relative to that. So they go through a bunch of arguments about what that would mean. And then they go into what is now the important part for us, which
+
+[27:14] is, well, what regulates that? So the 2 main, uh, 2 of the anesthetics that they use, one of which is clove oil, which is the one that we use when we wear anesthetizing fish, and there's a lot of data on using clove oil, uh, and it's derivatives,
+
+[27:28] using all my sousional, to, um, to anesthetize fish, right? And I've done it many times. I've anesthetized lobsters, which are entirely different set of, you know, animals, crustacean,
+
+[27:37] with Usinol. And I believe that there is an observable difference, and therefore, I don't have to worry about whether or not we're actually what's going on in the mind of a lobster because I feel that they taste different if they're anesthetized beforehand. And if they're killed quickly. Um, So the question is, does it work in cephalopods? Answer, yes, it appears to work encephalopods. But here's the interesting part. Magnesium chloride, which is a widely available salt. You can get it at the Dwayne Reed. Remember we got the magnesium chloride of the drain weed. Magnesium chloride added to the water that invertebrates like mollusc and clams are living
+
+[28:12] in, causes them to lose their muscle, it's a muscle relaxant, right? And so if you add the right amount of magnesium chloride to the solution, and
+
+[28:22] here I have the numbers, it's approximately 0.5% weight magnesium chloride
+
+[28:28] and volume, along with one% ethanol. It will cause their muscles to completely relax. Now, what you don't know here, right? What you can't know is whether or not that is actually shutting their brain down or whether it's just shutting down the ability of their muscles to
+
+[28:40] work. But large amounts of magnesium chloride, stop down, stop respiration and cause the animal to die. So a humane killing technique, uh, Ikigime style might be to put a small amount of clove oil, along with a small amount of ethanol, magnesium chloride, slow their muscles down, and to put them into a state of anesthesia, right?
+
+[29:00] And then to add more magnesium and chloride to stop their respiration and then, you know, do whatever, cut your brain out. The other, you know, and there's the other problem with octopi is that they don't have a central brain, they have a large kind of brain near the eye, so there's midline dissection where you take out the entire eye area and get rid of the brain section, but they have a bunch of
+
+[29:18] other quote unquote brain sections, unlike us, right? But that's one of the humane, or complete decapitation of the octopus, immediate decapitation octopus, another good
+
+[29:26] Ikigime way. Are there brains in other parts of the body or it's all ahead? No, I think it's like a separate, and like most of the neurons in an octopus are in there, not most, but I haven't done the research in a long time, but a huge amount of the, of the, the neurons in the octopus are
+
+[29:39] in, in the tentacles because like the, for instance, it's very complicated. But the point is, is that nobody really understands what it means to knock out the consciousness of an
+
+[29:49] octopus because nobody understands what octopus consciousness is. And one of the fascinating things about researching cephalopods is that their entire method of perception of the world is different than ours. So
+
+[29:59] that like appropriate deception, like how you know where your body is in space, works entirely differently encephalopods than it does in mammals.
+
+[30:07] And so it's kind of hard to evaluate what's going on. But it's an extremely interesting subject. And anyone out there who has access to live octopi, I'd be curious to run some tests on taste. You know what I'm saying? Because that's the only thing I know I can test is how that sucker tastes on my, how that smart, awesome thing tastes once it gets in my mouth. anyway. Take a break. Oh, take a break. Come back with cooking issues.
+
+[30:40] Every August, for the past 10 years, Heritage Foods USA has had the great honor of announcing the arrival of a new generation of
+
+[30:54] Good Shepherd Ranch Heritage Turkeys, and a new chapter in the history of an endangered species. You have to eat them to save them. While many farmers now use the term, Frank Reese and his team raised the truest example of the original heritage turkey. According to the USDA, they remain the only farm allowed to use the name heritage on their label. We hope you reserve your healthy, naturally mating,
+
+[31:19] flying, standard bronze, bourbon red, White Holland, slate, black or Narragansett, Turkey today. Let's do it again and support the brightest hope for the turkey. We guarantee these are the best tasting turkeys ever, or your money back. Prices start at $75. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. We've had some of those heritage turkeys. They were straight up delicious. I did, I think I did a bionic turkey on heritage thing once. That was, I think, maybe the best one we ever did. We did a bionic heritage turkey. Yeah. sucker was awesome. You know, the bionic turkey is where we rip out the skeleton, replace it with a skeleton, an aluminum tube skeleton with holes cut in it so that we can pump heat oil through, cook it from the inside
+
+[32:04] out so it cooks quickly, and then flash fried afterwards to get a crispy skin, which is delicious. Should we do that again? If we tell, if we tell, rather, Patrick, that we're going to do some sort of fancy thing, you think you'll hook us up, hook us up with a heritage turkey? Probably make that happen. Sweet. We had a question come in, too, about alternate proteins, like in the form of bugs, and if you think bugs will find their way on menus soon. Well, I mean, bugs have found their way on menus. You know, already. I mean, you know, everyone, you know, in, you know, Mexico, you got those fried grasshoppers, which I just don't think tastes good. That's the thing. I mean, they're crunchy, but a lot of things are crunchy. You know what I'm saying? You've had those, right, Stas? don't think so. And I don't like them. Then there's the ant eggs, you know, Eskimo lab, which I haven't had, but I think those are extremely, you know, high priced. There's witchery grubs. Uh, you know, some grubs are apparently delicious tasting. I mean, there's no there's no reason not to eat them. you know, other than the gross factor. Um, and that they're fairly small, right? So, I don't know. I don't think there's any, any reason why they shouldn't, I mean, like, obviously there's a grossness factor that a lot of people have to get over, but, you know, then, you know who is big into eating bugs is
+
+[33:14] Dana Goodyear. Did she write about that in her new, eating, eating bugs? And then what's it called? The, um, what's it called? Natural History Museum had that big bug eating thing a couple of years back. You know who else? I bet you Paul Adams from Popular Science, has eaten himself a lot of bugs. But you bet you that guy's eating himself a lot of bugs. We had this in on the Twitter. Dan D, at Eat the Fat, at cooking issues. Trader Joe's in STL, which is St. Louis, we think, donate, right? St. Louis, uh, donates a lot of food to our local at campus kitchens. Maybe it's just a in-store decision. Well, it's good to know that it's not Trader Joe's nationwide, and it just means, hey, New York Trader Joe's, step on up and give some food to bread and life.
+
+[34:01] What? There's a lot of meat container Joe's here. Yeah, but I'm sure they're probably all, like, run, like, logo. Hey, Jack, you want to say something nice about the bread and life? friends of our station, all the good work they do. Well, yeah, they work with Heritage Foods also. We give them a lot of hams, I believe, and then come Thanksgiving, we work with them as well. They've also, they were one of the sponsors of the Bushwick block party. So they're like always around here. Anthony Butler's a great guy. I don't know if you met him. Yeah, no, yeah, I have. I know some, you know, my wife's done some architecture work for them, and so has, you know, another couple of friends of mine. They just happen to be really kind of good people, you know? Yeah exactly. So, you know, Trader Joe's, just, you know, give them the stuff that you're about to throw away. Why throw it away? Why have it go to waste? There's plenty of people. There's plenty of people here in New York that could use the food. Am I right Jack? absolutely. Okay. Here's a question out to you guys. Tom Fisher, you asked us about the eggnog. Did work? Did it thicken? It's been like a week or two, right? Since we answered that question, the eggnog should be thick now. Let us know. Tweet on in. Oh, dang, yeah. Well, before Thanksgiving, we have to set our eggnog. Piper's going to do something crazy with it though, right? He can't help it. Let's do it. Correct. So you and I are going to do it. We won't tell them till afterwards. You can do his own, you can do it side by side. Oh geez. He does love the side by side. Another follow-up. Drew Drew Bushorn wrote in on Tempe. He had tweeted in and asked this about whether or not you could use microbial transglutaminase,
+
+[35:24] which, by the way, transgutaminase is what we call meat glue, and it's the enzyme that bonds proteins together. It binds a, um, glutamine residue to, which is
+
+[35:33] amino acid to a lycine residue, uh, and a COVID. such a gross word. Why would I say residue when I'm talking about food? Residue. Glycine? I mean, uh, lysine residue. Anyway, the sort of it. So it bonds these things together and it comes from microbes, it's called microbial
+
+[35:49] transquitaminates and it usually has various helper proteins. The question is, could you glue tempe together with it? And apparently the answer, and you could see it because he responded to the Twitter. Yes, it does. It glues it together and he says, what did he say here? Thanks for putting together a good program, long live the Hammer, fan of the Hammer. There's got to be one fan of the Hammer. Oh, shit. I know you do. Oh, come on, please. Everyone loves the hammer. Can we, please? Uh, a few days back, I tweeted Dave about using his favorite enzyme, uh, transplantaminates to make steam tempest solid enough to char uh, to charburger style, since I know he's not a big veggie, but he might be amused by the results. I thought I'd report back. The upper half, uh, he shows the part that's not uh,
+
+[36:30] TG, and it's just all broken apart and the bottom patty with a one% by mass transputaminates, which is a good number for something like that. It tasted pretty, it worked well and tasted pretty good with lettuce and mayo. Well, everything tastes good with lettuce mayo, right? lettuce and mayo tastes good. And add a good tomato and you got let, you got all, you're almost all the way to a bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich. In fact, even if you're a vegetarian, I hate to say this because bacon lettuce and bacon list tomato, and we're talking with Mark Ladner about this over the
+
+[36:56] weekend because we did an event at the discovery center at the Thanksgiving
+
+[36:59] farm, which we can talk about later. Center Discovery, yeah. Discovery Center, something else. That's like a science museum or something, San Franciscovery. You know me. Anyway, so the point is, is that like that's kind of one of the great sandwiches. Mark thinks that the reason it's such a great sandwich is you can have it at any time of day and but and I'm
+
+[37:15] get like, I'm going to get a lot of flack about this, but it's not as good a sandwich, but almost a good as good a sandwich as just, with just
+
+[37:22] toasted, crappy white bread, mayo, an excellent tomato and lettuce.
+
+[37:27] I mean, right? Something bacon for the mayo, are you saying? No, you need mayo no matter what, Jack. Don't try to make a BLT without mayo. Do you eat BLTs without Mayo Jack? Is this a problem we're going to have? No, no, no. All right. All right. Um, I was about to, I was about to go up. You can feel he's fooling into... Dave owns, like, you know, like the gloves come off in the hockey. Boom on the ice. Anyway. Okay. So that was it. Just a good follow-up. Thanks. And we like to hear follow-ups like that, right? We enjoy that stuff. Okay, we had a question in last week, but we forget who it came in from, right? I think it was a caller, asking about gluten-free ramen. And they specifically they wanted to know whether or not you could add consway, which is the kind of alkaline salts that are used to firm up alkaline
+
+[38:15] noodles, of which ramen is one of those. So you add, uh, to flour, you add, uh, conway. It raises the pH, makes it more alkaline, and raising the pH strengthens the gluten in it, and causes the noodles to have more bite, more snap, more, more like, this made them firmer, right? Which is one of the reasons why people do alkaline noodles. The other one is there's a specific alkaline taste that you like if you're accustomed to that. Um, and we're accustomed to that, uh, in certain things, it's slightly different alkaline taste, but for instance, in pretzels have an alkaline taste to them because they're boiled in alkaline water before they're, um, or dipped in alkaline bath before debate, which is why they have that awesome color and that specific pretzel taste.
+
+[38:52] Um, back to this. So the other thing that the alkaline stuff does in wheat flour is it turns it yellow, which is why you have those kind of bright yellow alkaline noodles, right? Now, with ramen, uh, I think most of the time ramen is made in an alkaline noodle, semi-alkaline noodle process, not a high, high, uh, level of alkaline noodles from the data that I could get from, you know, the
+
+[39:14] the internet's on the actual industrial production of ramen. So, but the classic ramen production is you make the noodle, probably with alkaline, uh, with uh, out of wheat flour, sometimes with the addition of potato starch or other very fast hydrating starches to allow the rehydration to take uh, place much faster in the
+
+[39:33] cup. when you add the boiling, you know, water to it when you're making the ramen. You know, I haven't made ramen in so many years from the bags. When was the last time you had one of those things? Three years. Oh, no, you mean like that? Yeah, like, you know, like the one that you actually buy the package, you break it open with
+
+[39:49] a little flavor pack. 20? Dang. I used to eat the hell out of those. Those are good and cheap. Anyway, so what happens is you make the noodles. They are steamed. this is kind of cool. They have a conveyor belt and the conveyor belt runs at 2 different speeds, right? So a faster running conveyor belt loads onto a slower running conveyor belt, and that's how they get the wave in it. Yeah, by the differential conveyor belt, it's fed onto, and then they get the wave in it. When it's on, after it goes on the slower conveyor belt that causes the wave, it goes through a steam tunnel. The steam tunnel cooks the starch out, right? It then goes, it's then cut. sometimes fold it. Well, then they put on another conveyor belt that stretches it out a little bit to separate the noodles after they've done that. This is all pretty cool, right? And then that's after the steam thing. And then it goes, it gets cut and sometimes fold it into the full block, if you're going to put it into a block form for like in packaging and plastic, then goes into a fryer.
+
+[40:43] It fries to dehydrate it. It's a fast dehydration step. It also, as opposed to regular dehydration, opens the pores in the noodles because it's boiling the water out. And that's why ramen rehydrates so quickly because it's got all these open pore structures from the frying. And that's also why you can eat ramen without cooking it and it's got kind of a good crunchy texture because it's slightly, it's slightly, it's more porous than dried pasta. That's why it tastes better raw, rawish, uh, than, uh, pasta. It's then further dehydrated, a little more and packaged. That's how the ramen works. So then, uh, the question is, uh, so clearly adding consway to uh,
+
+[41:23] gluten-free uh, um, ramen isn't going to add the functional benefits of texture that you would get
+
+[41:28] in, um, in wheat flour. However, there is a new article out, I think it's brand new. I think it's like not even out until 2014. I think it's one of those ones that's in pre-press right now. Uh, in the uh, journal food chemistry called Quality improvement of rice noodle restructured with rice
+
+[41:45] protein, isolate, and transmutaminates by Yang Kim at all. And it's specifically looking at increasing the toothiness of rice noodles using
+
+[41:53] transglutaminates, and they talk specifically, I think, about ramen and how ramen might work.
+
+[41:58] Okay. And so what's interesting, if you look this paper up, is they have photos of scanning electron
+
+[42:06] microscopy photos of what, you know, just plain rice looks like as a
+
+[42:11] noodle, and like everyone knows has ever just made a rice noodle. It's like a bunch of BBs. It doesn't hold together well. There is no structure. There's no protein network, uh, like there would be in something that has gluten, which is
+
+[42:21] why when you're making uh, gluten-free things with rice, what you do is you cook off some of the rice 1st and
+
+[42:27] then and then add that cooked rice back to your raw rice flour because otherwise it has no structure,
+
+[42:33] right? So they have that. Then they have that just with transgutaminates added, and it doesn't
+
+[42:38] do that much joining back together because rice is fairly low in proteins that can be bound together by
+
+[42:45] transgotaminates. What they did, and then they said that, look, one way to get around this is to add soy proteins and all these other things, but these guys did a study where they added rice protein back to
+
+[42:54] it and trans contamination. You can see it, and the one on the, the one that it has the added rice protein added back to it, as well as
+
+[43:01] trans contaminates added to bind it together, looks a lot more like a traditional dough structure than that.
+
+[43:07] So maybe that's a way to increase in a gluten-free application, the
+
+[43:10] twosomeness of it. And you could probably also, if you can't get rice protein. You could probably do a little bit of cooked rice, soy protein, unless you're against
+
+[43:19] it that's hydrated, along with the rice, with transgutaminates, and get more of a firm kind of snappy texture out of it. But go take a look at that article. Because, you know, it seems fairly interesting. The one, the issue, only issue I have is that, uh, you know, as, as I've said there were
+
+[43:35] arguments and I haven't had the time to do the research to really suss it out about whether or not adding transgutaminates to things that
+
+[43:41] contain, uh, trace amounts of gluten, whether it makes that, uh, whether it makes the gluten fraction more reactive or less
+
+[43:48] reactive, uh, for people who suffer from celiac. And I've heard kind of arguments on both sides. However, I will say that this article is specifically addressing the issue of
+
+[43:58] celiac. And so, you know, they're looking to make a gluten-free rice only product that has good eating
+
+[44:06] qualities and they are interested in the ramen issues. So it's something to look at. And, you know, it's current right now. It's 2 translutalities questions. I don't understand it tomorrow. Yeah? All right, cool. Oh, yeah, right. Next, we have it from, uh, you think it's pronounced Philippe? I think so. Philippe. Philippe Lament. It's kind of awesome. have a last name lament. I think it's a good name altogether Philippe Lament. I bet you, like, I bet you, like, super happy though. If you have a if you have a name like Lament, you can't, you can't like, you can't be melancholy. You know what I mean? Because, you know, but at least if it was Piper, you'd be like, I'm not living up to my name. I won't, I won't. Anyway. Hello, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. It's Philippe Lament writing. Love your show. I have a question about soft serve, ice cream. Some of my good friends acquired a soft serve machine amazingly, and I told them I'd be glad to make a ton of ice cream base for them for a party.
+
+[44:57] Now I know how to make ice cream that is churned regularly, but soft serve is different. More overrun, right? What do I do to make a baller, soft serve base? Okay, this is a great question. Here's the deal. So I once was the proud owner of a soft serve ice cream machine. Also, kind of strangely, I was walking down the street one day. This is, you know, I don't know, 15, 12, 15 years ago. I was walking down the street, in the garment district where I used to live, and just literally someone had thrown out on the side of the street, a giant,
+
+[45:30] like, you know, 2 flavors and a twist, tailor, soft serve ice cream machine on wheels. And I was like, look, someone threw on an ice cream machine. And my wife's like, so what? I'm like, so what? It's coming back to our house. And it weighs like, because you know, whatever. So the sucker weighs £900 and it's on these crappy little casters. I know it weighs 900 pounds because I looked up the cut sheet later on the sucker. And so anyway, it was only, you know, those crappy little casters that machines are on that aren't really meant to. And if you've been to the garment district, the only roads that are worse are the ones in lower Manhattan down where we are now, but like the garment district has these
+
+[46:03] like all bent, all the roads are messed up from heavy trucks, ears, just rolling over them all the time, right? So I'm rolling this thing back a couple blocks of my, uh, you know, my loft, where I lived at the time, and we roll it in, and, you know, I spend the next day and a half blowing all the roaches out of it,
+
+[46:19] and, like, you know, completely nuking it such that there was nothing left alive in it, you know, making sure that I wasn't bringing a family of rats with me or anything like
+
+[46:25] this. Disassemble the machine, put it back together. Unfortunately, the, uh, unfortunately, the one of the compressors was shot. In fact, 2 of the compressors were shot. So instead of 2 flavors and a twist, I had kind of one flavor where the cylinder compressor worked, and the actual refrigeration compressor
+
+[46:42] thing that keeps the base going didn't work at all. So I had to like pack that with ice to get it to work. And this was the 1st time I'd ever made a huge quantity of ice cream base. And so what I'll say is this, when you're making, then this applies to anything. If you have low temperature, you're going to want to go ahead and because you're going to make gallons. If you have a nice soft serve ice cream machine. Like, I remember I was like, crap, I can't even fire this sucker up reasonably unless I'm making like 4 gallons. So I tried to make a 4 gallon or 5 gallon batch of ice cream base in my turkey frying
+
+[47:14] pot, right? Now, if you've never done this before. It is very difficult to get an even temp and stupidly, because I'm a jerk. I tried to make, I tried to make the whole batch at once, just by whisking really hard. And the bottom of it, obviously, I got a little overheated. I didn't move it fast. And so all of a sudden I see bloop. I see all of these. I see the coagulated, overcooked egg float to the top. I'm like, no.
+
+[47:40] So I tried filtering it out, right? Also, if you've met me, you know that I was very late and like I needed the ice cream on the table, right? Because I had it was family dinner. I need to have this stuff out. You know, Styles is shaking her head. She knows how I am. So I was like, oh, no, I didn't have the time to cool it down just by putting it in the case. So 1st of all, I filtered it out. sucker tastes like scrambled eggs. This was way prior to Heston Blumenthal making scrambled egg ice cream famous. I could have been like, well, I'm just doing Hestin Blumenthal's recipe. I'm just I'm just trying out this. Yeah, what do you mean? I meant to do this. This is what Heston does all the time. You know, listen, if you're not looking for scrambled egg ice cream, scrambled ice, egg ice cream. No good. And I haven't had Hestins. I sure it's delicious. I dont want to talk about that. So anyway, I need the coolest bass down super quick, right? That I had made and I had messed up part of it by curdling part of it. It was at the last minute to. It's always at the last minute that you ruin the bass, which is why it's so horrible. I thankfully hadn't burnt it because that would be the real Joker move, whatever. So it's all strained out, and I have it in a bus tub because I had lost the original thing in the bottom of the soft serve machine, and I threw dry ice into it, to try and cool it down faster, and of course, it tasted lightly carbonated when it came out of the soft
+
+[48:41] serve because the soft serve hadn't frozen out all the water in it. And so I had this kind of carbonated scrambled egg ice cream. It was the worst ice cream I have ever made in my entire life. I then threw an ice cream party afterwards and quite smartly at the time, although it's a cop out, and we'll talk about ways not to cop out. Uh, I drove up to the Bronx to the Mr. Softy uh, warehouse where
+
+[49:05] they actual trucks for Mr. Softy go, and I said, look, I'm not, look, I'm not trying to horn in on Mr. Softy's business.
+
+[49:12] I have this ice cream machine. My wife's going to make me throw it away in about a week and a half . I'm going to have a big party. I'll pay whatever you want. Just let me buy like 5 gallons of Mr. Softy mix. And they did. They let me buy. It wasn't that much. I mean, the guy, I was not used to it to like, like a normal non-Mr. Softy guy showing up at the window where the Mr. Softy truck show up to buy their stuff and like kind of making this plea.
+
+[49:34] And I guess he obviously looked at me and was like, this person is not a professional person in any sort of way. And so he sold me this stuff. party was insane. Party was nuts. We went through so much soft serve ice cream on that. But that said, I'm sure you want to make it the right way. The 1st thing to do, if you've never made huge batches before, is make them in smaller batches so that you don't do the stupid stuff that I did. Second, I mean, if you have an immersion circulator, I would just make it an immersion circulator in, um, kind of 2 liter, 2 liters at a time and just build it up 2, 3, to 4 liters at a time in bags and build up that way because you're much less likely
+
+[50:07] to, uh, have a problem. It'll take you a little bit longer, but it's easier to chill and easier to keep done. And that said, if you want to know about the actual formulation of soft serve. The problem overrun in a soft serve ice cream machine isn't achieved the same way that you achieve overrun in regular ice cream with
+
+[50:22] the with the churning thing. The way that soft serve literally injects air into the freezing cylinder at the same time that it injects the mixture in. So you change the overrun based on the orifice. If you look in a soft serve machine. There is a pump, the pump draws the base out of the, of the, at least the one I had out of the bottom of the unit, and injects it into the
+
+[50:43] chamber through what looks like, you know, a MIG welding tip, a little orifice, and you change that orifice size to change the overrun.
+
+[50:51] And so unscrupulous, people who are making sauce serve, what they'll do is they'll put an orifice in there that increases the overrun to like 100% or more so that you're getting more than, you know, more air than you are ice cream based in
+
+[51:03] a finished product. You know, conversely, you can do like a super premium one by reducing the overrun by changing the orifice in it, which is what companies like Carvel do.
+
+[51:12] So Carvel, you know, used to, and, you know, it's not super premium anymore by, you know, modern standards, but, you know, back in the 70s, they had a very low overrun ice cream that was still
+
+[51:20] soft serve. That, why Carvel cakes once they're hardened or dense as hell because it's actually a very dense ice cream, which is why I like
+
+[51:27] Carvel. And I, you know, whatever their flavoring is. I got, you know, I learned to love it when I was a kid, so I have no idea whether it's actually good or not. Um, right? Well, you didn't grow up with Carvel. Do you like it? It's okay. Yeah, but you didn't grow up with it. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's like it's like black and white cookies. If you didn't grow up with a black and white cookie, you don't love a black and white cookie. Jack, you grew up with black and white. We had this conversation last week. Yeah, black and white. Yeah. Okay. So, anyway, so the point is the overrun is controlled by the overrun is controlled by the orifice. So you can go buy a new orifice and they're fairly inexpensive. So whatever make you have, you can easily go buy the orifice to produce the overrun you want. The trick with soft serve machines. is that you have to adjust, you have to remember that they're going to be served warmer than a slightly warmer than a hard ice cream. So sugar levels need to be a little bit different. And what you need to guard against is over whipping because this thing sits there churning the entire time, even when you're not drawing. Uh, at least I believe that they always turn even when they're not drawing. So there's the issue that something might be in the cylinder much longer than it would be in a normal machine. And so you need to add emulsifiers to it to prevent over whipping in the cylinder as it goes. Now, a good place to go for this kind of information, if you just Google soft serve Guelph, G-U-E-L-P-H, which is where the university is that does a lot of the good dairy science stuff that's available on the web, and Goff, G-O-F-F, which is the professor's
+
+[52:51] name, There's a huge PDF that you can look at on the internet that deals very specifically with all of the different all the different things that go into soft serve, including the fact that you want a higher milk fats, you know,
+
+[53:07] sorry, non-milk fat solids, milk fats, non-solid. in, uh, in ice cream, um, because you're not going to have lactose crystallization problems over
+
+[53:16] time and it increases the body of it. They talk about the fat content, and they actually give some proportions that you might want to use. And then you're just going to go out and get some good emulsifiers. I'm sure egg yolks are good enough to emulsify them to prevent the overturning, and they talk about fat contents and everything. So just go onto that. And they actually talk about changing the wetness or dryness perception of the ice cream based on whether you add certain salt. And this is something I never thought about before that. I'm going to do more research for the next time we do ice cream work, adding sodium
+
+[53:43] citrate or different calcium to either make it wetter or drier, the ice cream. I had no idea. So that's something to look into. You gotta love Guelph. You gotta love Guelph. All right. So that's it. And shout out to John Riper, who says, Stas, sorry to hear the apples didn't arrive in the best of shape, but glad you could still go to tasting with
+
+[54:00] them. Hey John, the chocolates were delicious. He sent us chocolates. Well, I see. And I, you know, look, and then I was told that I was throwing John under the bus saying that, you know, that they didn't
+
+[54:09] get, It, not that they didn't come in the best of shape. you know, you want to know exactly what our tasting stuff is. And I, I, for one, really appreciated it, and I thank you, John. Cooking issues.
+
+[54:30] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:56] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking. It's just coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio
+
+[1:12] Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 here, as usual, with the Hammer. How you doing? Good. And Jack in the booth. How you doing? It's just, it's just, it's the old school crew today. It's just the stars and the jack and the and the me. Nice, right? Styles likes it that way. No offense to Joe. She just feels like she likes it, like old school. Now, Stas, you have a problem with you. Oh man. Yeah. You just started it. And interesting, we brought back the song by Joel Gargano, because Joel has a question in today. sensed it. You sensed that you felt it. Did stars tip you off? No, she didn't. Really? All right. Well, before I go in, call in your questions. 2718-497, 2128. That's 718-497-2128. Jack has some good news. Jack, you have good news? Oh, right. Yeah, good news. I'm... See, I wouldn't share this kind of personal information on the show, but Nastasia is so happy that I'm leaving
+
+[2:08] Brooklyn. I'm moving to New York City. Now, I like, well, here's here's the thing that might interest, it will always actually interest people who are from New York. Those other people just, you know, bear with us for a second. So a quirk of New Yorkers is that when you live
+
+[2:26] in when you live outside of New York City and you ask someone from Brooklyn, you know, are you from New York City, they'll say yes, but when you're inside the city, the city is really just
+
+[2:35] Manhattan. Styles, back me up on this, right? Yeah. And so even even Jack, longtime Brooklyn pusher, you know, not in the, you know, not in that sense, but, you know,
+
+[2:45] like a booster. That's what I meant. Brooklyn booster. moving to Manhattan now admits he's moving to the city. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the reason, Jack? Um, an opportunity has come up. Yeah, yeah. Leave it there. So you're no longer going to live in Bushwick? I mean, you know, I'll be here a lot, but my home will be the city. That was my 1st home anyway when I moved to the city and went to NYU, so. Yeah. Nice. Well, welcome back. Welcome back to our side of the river jacket. This is stuff that only makes sense to, like, to New Yorkers, though, right, stuff? People, you know, you know what pisses people off who don't, you know, don't live in New York when you go to their city, and then they say, uh, you know, when you're going back, you're going
+
+[3:29] to go, I'm going back to the city, and then you give the date that you're going back to New York, and you're like, what do you mean, the city? Like, it's a city. Like, I also live in a city and you're like, no, no, no. I in LA now. going back to the city next week. You know what I mean? People hate that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. My wife used to hate that. In fact, she mentioned that to me when we were going out like 20 years ago. I'm like, what are you talking about? And it turns out it's true. I paid attention. People do get upset. Anyway, back to Joel's question. Hey, crew, 1st off, I finally met Harold McGee at the Harvard lecturer in September that you guys did. I didn't see him there. Did you see him? No, I didn't. Maybe he was there for a separate lecture. I think I creeped him out. Remember I was that guy you read 2 live on the air. This is what Joel said to McGee. I can imagine McGee standing there and Joel Walker be like, hey, remember when you read that stuff on the
+
+[4:15] air? and he's like, uh, he's like, uh, oh, yeah, and I wrote that song about you too. I did get a sweet picture with Harold, though, after you smoked out the lecture. No, I guess it was the one we were at. I didn't see him. Anyway. I'm sure, like, McGee always just stands there and listens. He probably didn't like, wasn't, wasn't creeped out. Carol doesn't get creeped out by that kind of stuff. No. has a strong, whatever it's called. All right. Here are the questions. How is vinegar powder made? And if I were to make my own, what would be the best approach without the flavor becoming muted by ridiculous amounts of
+
+[4:45] anzorbit? Is a tray of vinegar and a dehydrator? The answer. Okay, so I'll hit that one first. He has 2 questions. No, no, wave vinegar powder is commercially made is through spray drying. So in spray drying, what you would do is you would mix. See, the problem with vinegar is vinegar is one of the very few, you know, acids that we eat that is volatile. That's why you can smell it so much. You know, when you put your head over a thing of vinegar. It smells like vinegar, whereas you, you know, put your head over a thing of lime juice and you're like, smells like lime juice, but it doesn't smell like acid. You know what I mean? And when you boil vinegar, you get that like aroma above it. like, whoa, you know what I'm talking about, but you don't get it with something like lime or lemon or anything like that. It's because those acids, you know, boil at a high enough temperature that they're fundamentally non-volatile, whereas acetic acid isn't. So, anyway, so you spray dry acetic acid vinegar by mixing it with a carrier, usually maltadextrin, and then spraying it into a chamber, very, you know,
+
+[5:42] very, the higher the better, at a high temperature, and as it goes down, the mist goes down in the chamber,
+
+[5:47] it dries out and turns into a powder. We remember we saw we went to David Michael, the flavor house, and we saw their spray dryer units. Pretty cool. anyway. So that's how they make the powdered vinegar. Now, powdered vinegar, and you can go on, you know, modernist pantry or the sanctuary or anywhere, terrace spice, uh, Kalustians, if you're here in the city, and buy various different flavors of vinegar powder. The problem is that, like I say, vinegar itself is non-volatile. I mean, sorry. Exact opposite. Vinegar is volatile. So the acetic acid is. So you have to, it's not very acidic. So you need to then dope the vinegar. vinegar powder will have the flavor of whatever vinegar was there, malt, vinegar or, you know, anything like that, but it's not actually very tart. So you'll need to augment it with another acid to really get the tartness of the vinegar bag. Now, I think you could probably freeze dry vinegar as well. And I don't know whether the acidity is maintained through the freeze drying process because I don't know the, I don't know how acetic acid works with sublimation and freeze drying is a sublimation procedure.
+
+[6:49] Um, The other thing, and I looked up and people have done
+
+[6:53] it, is you can mix, um, you can make a sauce with vinegar in it and then dehydrate the entire sauce, right? Because then there's enough structure of other stuff in the sauce that you can dehydrate. And I saw on the internet that somebody did that with like their their favorite buffalo wing sauce. They poured the buffalo wing sauce and the dehydrator dehydrated for 2 days and then powdered it. I mean, I've never done it, but you could you could do that, but don't use Enzor, but remember, Enzorbit is going to be an expensive carrier to use for this kind of
+
+[7:23] thing. And Zorbit is a particular type of tapioca maltodextrin that is, um, made specifically to have very, very, uh, very low
+
+[7:33] density and it's used as a bulking agent and it also is used to make powdered oils. And the reason it works is because they starch helix, right? The inside of the starch helix is relatively hydrophobic, and so fats and oils can go inside of that
+
+[7:50] helix without gumming up the outside of it. So it remains bulky and powdery, but the oil is somehow stored on the
+
+[7:57] inside. As soon as you add water, it breaks down and turns to, you know, it turns, you know, it debulks and turns like
+
+[8:04] into into nothing, which is how the absorbit powdered oil trick works. So you can't, you can't do it with uh, insorbit, or at least it's not, uh, you know, you get a cheaper form of maltodextrin to use as a bulking agent if you're
+
+[8:17] going to do the dehydration on it. But anyway, I hope that helps. Second question, uh, Joel had was, um, uh, it's always been the kitchen rule to let
+
+[8:26] Cambros' stocks cool with the lid off. The school of thought on this is twofold. It will cool faster because there is less insulation, and also the condensation built up on the lid, if left on could promote bacterial growth. I hate cooling stocks with no lids because it increases the potential for items to be dropped in them during the cooling process.
+
+[8:42] Not a question about cooling techniques, but I want to know if there's any danger in slapping a lid on hot
+
+[8:46] stock and cooling it in an ice bath, the room temp, and then putting it in the walk-in. Well, okay. I mean, look, is there any danger? So. If the product is way above the temperature that of bacteria, right? And I don't think you're going to have a problem with the lid. I mean, in terms of bacterial contamination, if you slapped it on it when it was really hot
+
+[9:08] and, you know, the vapors coming up would be hot, it would hit it and everything would be
+
+[9:13] okay. And, you know, presumably that's not the real problem. The real problem is, is that it takes forever in a day to cool, uh, to cool stock with a lid on because, um, a huge amount of heat is lost through evaporative cooling.
+
+[9:28] So, you know, if you were to put a lid on top of stock when it's cooling, it would super drastically increase the amount of time it takes the stock to get down to room temperature. Because,
+
+[9:44] um, you know, the, the, I mean, evaporative cooling is such a large percentage of how, how the stuff gets away. When you think about it, like radiation, very low, in conduction to the air, very
+
+[9:55] low, in terms of ways to get rid of heat, conduction even to ice
+
+[9:59] water through a Cambro is not super great because the Cambro is not so great at heat transfer, right? Um, you know, a metal metal container uh, in ice is good. Um, but that, as long as there's hot vapor coming off, you're, you know, very drastically cooling is setting up a temperature gradient, setting up
+
+[10:18] convection so long as the stock is a thin thing and really increasing the rate, it which cools. So I really think it's all about rate of cooling there. Now, if you could guarantee a rate of cooling that's fast enough, then a totally sealed system would be fine, I would guess. Yeah? Oh, just as a note, it really is evaporative cooling. I poured Piper and I ran some tests today. We did a quart container of product, which is not the same as camera. much smaller. We did a quart container of water with and without a lid, drastically different cooling rates. And then also I poured like a teaspoon, a little bit of oil on top of another, a 3rd one, and it's the same as putting a lid on it, drastically damp the rate because you can't get evaporation off
+
+[10:58] the top, but there's oil on top. I wonder whether that's why the guys in, uh, so you know, in, um, you know, in Tibet, they put, uh, like a melted yak butter on top of tea. I wonder, so a lot of it is because speaking to this guy, I think I mentioned this in a show previously is that I had a little, like an actual Sherpa as a driver, like his last name was
+
+[11:18] Sherpa, and he was from Nepal. I think I talked about it. yeah. But and he was saying that the interesting thing about the food there is that if it doesn't have a lot of fat in it, people
+
+[11:27] are like, what's wrong with you? I need the fat to survive. you know what I mean? Because they need to burn a lot of calories, I guess, when they're up that high. But I wonder whether also you get like wicked evaporative cooling up there because of the low pressures. And I'm wondering whether or not the butter is an insulation effect as
+
+[11:40] well to keep the tea hot or longer. You're like, man, I don't care. I'm talking to your brother-in-law. Yeah, you're talking to my brother-in-law? Yeah. Right now while we're doing the radiation. All right, okay. Got this in, a note from John Riper, friend of the show. Nastasia, another great show last week. Day's quick riff on BLTs reminded me of an easy way to make them better. Hey, listen, John, don't get me started. BLT, you can make one different. I don't know if you're going to make it better. That's a tough way to open it. Yeah. I mean, look, in other words, like, you can make a different sandwich. It's like here's what I have to say. Like, you know, you make a lot of bitters, like for cocktails, and it's like, I can make a different, I can make a bitterers that I like a lot, but I'm not going to make a better Angostura because how can you be better at being Angostura than Angostura
+
+[12:26] is? You know what I'm saying? Waiting to see what he's got. Yeah, okay, here we go. Junk white bread is, of course, the way to go. Yeah. Back in the days when it helped to build strong bodies 12 ways, we'd
+
+[12:38] take, that's what they used to say, about the junk white bread. We take Wonder Bread, I guess, right? We'd take 2 pieces, slather on. Is Wonder Bread back yet, by the way? Twinkies are back. Really? We did a little news piece on it. Thank God, Nate, because I told you, because the deal is. So you like Wonder Bread then. That's not that I like it. has nothing to do with whether you like it or not. It's Wonder Bread. It like it needs to exist. You know what I'm saying? Like when a French person comes to the United States and you want to, and you want to like show them like what it meant to be a kid growing up, you get Welch's grape jelly, peanut butter of your choice, mine would be probably
+
+[13:14] skiffy, skippy, because although my mom was quite choosy. She did not choose JIF. Chunky though, right? Really? I like either. But it's an interesting choice. You only a chunky man? only chunky. See, here's my feeling. Like, I like chunky, but I think if you want to go full American on someone, you got to give them, I think you got to start with the creamy and move into the chunk. I don't know. don't know. And it has to be Welch's grape jelly. Yeah, right? And so you get the wonder bread, the Welsh is grape jelly, and the peanut butter, and then you hand it to them, and what you have to say is, and you got to remember, French people don't like Concorde grapes, and they don't like peanut
+
+[13:49] butter. They're they're freaks about it. They don't like either one of those things. They like good bread. And they love good bread. They hate Wonder Bread. And so, and so you hand them the, the, the, the, the sandwich, right? Which is like, that's like, how many of those did you pound when you're growing up? Stas, how about you? A lot. Yeah. Like, and you can't, like, kids these days, that's not America anymore because a lot of the schools, you can't bring peanut butter to anymore. But that was, that's the sandwich. And, and you hand it to them. And what you say to them is, hey, look, I don't expect you to like this, but if you don't, you can't wrap your mind around this sandwich, then you can't wrap your mind around America, period.
+
+[14:24] And then you just walk away. You know what I mean? And then they eat it and they're like, this is dead abilities. That's not a French accent. That's not even French. ZC is a, ZC is horrible. There you go. That's a little better. Okay. So anyway, so back to back to John. Okay. So back in the days when it helped build strong bodies 12 ways. We take 2 pieces of bread. Wonder. Slather on some mayo and a couple of tomato slices, add bacon, and then instead of lettuce,
+
+[14:47] see, here's it, instead of lettuce, we cook a sunny side up egg in the rendered bacon fat and slide it onto the bacon and tomatoes, when you want a sandwich, it's greater than some of the
+
+[14:55] of its parts, this is it. Now, I agree that that might be a good sandwich, maybe even a great sandwich. I don't know that it's going to be, you know, I think I should have a different sandwich, Jack, what do you think? Yeah, that's much more like a bacon egg and cheese variation. Ooh, I like bacon egg. The words bacon, egg, and cheese are like some of the greatest words in the world. Bacon, egg and cheese. So it's like a bacon egg and cheese with tomato. On Wonder Bread. On Wonder Bread. Do you like a, speaking of wonder bread. Do you like a grilled cheese sandwich with a tomato on it? Yeah, actually, that's always what I get. Now? I do, yeah. I like it. Styles probably hates that. I don't like it so much. Really? Because why? Because it's wet. Just don't like it. But I mean, is it the wetness? Like, I'm trying to analyze. I don't like the taste of a tomato on grilled cheese. Even like a dried tomato? Right. Don't like it. Tom Fisher writes in, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe. Sorry for not updating you last week on the eggnog. Uh, you know, so we had a question a couple weeks ago about a traditional eggnog that's made and then
+
+[15:53] let to sit for, you know, several weeks. We got to make that soon stuff. I know. Yeah. Piper made that weird tahi one. That's terrible. Pipe. Yeah, I love Piper, who works with us, you know, but, uh, he puts freaking tiki bitters and
+
+[16:05] everything, and he wants to tiki fly everything. He made this eggnog. He's like, this is really good, right? And Stas and I are both like, no, it's garbage. It's garbage, right? It's garbage. What do you remember what was in it? No. And you know, look. But it was on Pebbleite. It's very terrible. Oh, it looked terrible. Oh my god, so bad. Piper's come up with some really good ideas recently though. Piper did a, I don't know if we talked about it. We did it at the event we did at the Center for Discovery. Sour cream simple syrup, right? Which is, like, it's, that's Piper's, like, genius invention of the, of the recently. Concord grape and vodka. That's a good drink. It's good. We're going to make that one for Absolute for
+
+[16:47] Perno Ricardo in a couple of days. That's a good drink. It was a good drink. But the tiki eggnog, not so much. Although, interestingly, I did enlist Piper's help to answer this question. So let's get to it. As you recall, I made a large batch of age, aged eggnog, but was concerned, as it appeared to be very thin, about the consistency of whole
+
+[17:03] milk. The recipe calls for it to be aged for a minimum of 21 days. Now on day 12, the eggnog is thickened slightly to the consistency of heavy cream. I'll check in again next week to let you know how it's going, but just for the sake of discussion. If it did not thicken on its own, what would I do? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Uh, okay. So, so I talked to Piper, as you may know, Piper, who works with us and who makes terrible tiki flavored eggnog. I worked for CP Kelco, which is the Carragin Masters for a while. And so, um, and right off the bat, you're going to, you know that that
+
+[17:37] Carragan is going to be the way to go to really fix a milk system up very well because
+
+[17:41] Carragan has synergistic effects with milk, so you don't have to use very much of it. Now, There are, so I wouldn't use things like Xanthan, even though Xanthan's really easy, it's going to snot it up real
+
+[17:52] quick. And eggnog's already got textural issues for me. And if you want something creamy and smooth, you don't want any of the, you don't want any kind of snot rocket feel to it, right?
+
+[18:01] Staz, no snot rocket. hate the snot rocket. So, uh, you're going to want uh, Carragin. Now, there's 3 different fundament, well, there's more, but like the 3 carraginans you're most likely to come in contact with are kappa
+
+[18:12] carraginan, iota carraginan, and lambda carraginan. And actually in cooking, you're most often just going to come up with kappa and iota. Kappa makes hard brittle gels. You're not going to want that in this. Iota makes softer gels and is used in things like yogurts to get because it also the gel resets. Now, you're not looking to gel. You're looking to thicken. And the prime thickening carrogen, and the one that's used in chocolate milk, for instance, lambda carrogen, and or maybe small amounts, small, small, small amounts of, tiny amounts of iota. Now, Piper told me about the stuff that he used to use when he was working for CP
+
+[18:49] Coco, and he stole, I maybe bought some, I don't know, stole some. called GenuVisco. They have such crappy names, right? Who wants to put something called Genu Visco into their product? Anyway. Genu Visco. CSM2, C like cold, S like soluble, M like milk. So it's cold soluble in milk, so it doesn't need to be heated. And the good news there is you can add it after you've made your product because it doesn't need to be heated. So GenuVisco, CSM 2. And you're going to want to use that in the ratio of between 0.one and 0.25%. So anywhere between one gram per liter and 2.5 grams per liter. Now, the problem is, is that CP Coco has set up a, um, a thing with La Sanctuary in California. So La Sanctuire is a distributor of CP Coco products. Piper checked, and they don't have the GenuVisco CSM 2 on their website. Maybe they can get it for you. The closest thing that they have is Jenny Visco J-DS, which you use in even lower quantities, 0.02. So two tenths of a grand per liter. And the problem with that, aside from the usage, is it's mainly Iota, and I think you might have, I don't think that's cold soluble in milk. So you can probably call CP Coco and get them to send you some as a sample or pester
+
+[20:09] the sanctuary and maybe they'll get it for you, but that's how I would go. Should we take our 1st commercial break? We'll come right back after this commercial break with cooking issues.
+
+[20:43] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, they also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tam works, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder, and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. And we're back. Call your questions 2 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Speaking of underground meets, had a question in from Brandon Hopkins saying, hello,
+
+[21:46] hammer and the nails. I'm the nails, I guess. Yeah, near the hammer. That means you're going to hit me over the head. like you don't. Yeah, call it quick if you want to grab that first. Oh yeah? All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi, David, this is Johnny Clark on Memphis, Tennessee. How you doing? All right, how you doing? I'm doing good. Great. Uh, I had a question about uh, preserving little. And using Morton's kosher salt with that. All right. I know, what I found was, there's like a 3% uh,
+
+[22:17] sodium pair of cyanide, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um, and 97% starting Colorado, of course, um, and when you, the sodium pair of, cyanide, hit,
+
+[22:33] is, uh, makes an acid, it forms, uh, toxic gas. Well, where like as far as I know, Morton's kosher salt is 100% sodium chloride,
+
+[22:46] where's that other thing coming from? It's anti-kiking. Let me, let me, let me do a quick, uh, it would definitely be much less than that amount, but let
+
+[22:57] me, let me just check up. In the kosher salt, they add an anti-caking. And Morton's kosher salt, but have anti-cooking agent. I mean, look it up here for you real quick. Um. I also have another question about um, something, but go ahead. No, yeah, yeah, look, uh, ask me another question and I'm, uh, because normally, like, I would think that they would use, I mean, I've never heard of using, uh, sodium ferracyanide as a, as a, it lists that on the package. No, I had the, uh, search through the, um, more
+
+[23:38] than the MSDF and it would not, it, I found it after a long search.
+
+[23:46] But it contains 3%, which, uh, I don't know which makes
+
+[23:52] it affects gluten tolerance, so I don't know about that either. No, it would have to be much like if they were to put something like that in, it would have to be much, much, much lower than that. Um, but I'm gonna look. I'm definitely going to look that up. In fact, the reason that I'm pausing as I say this is I am in the process of trying to look it up as we speak. Uh, but anyway. Um, what's your, what's your 2nd question while we're, while we're, while we're looking it up? I'm trying to package, uh, anaerobically some, um, cured meats, and, you know, they have to be
+
+[24:37] sliced, then, and I've done it, just, uh, in the vacuum machine, and they lose
+
+[24:45] color after being sliced. Anything that could help them maintain color? So you're doing a normal... Right, and you're doing a normal cure with uh, with uh, nitrites, vacuum packing it, and then slicing it. It's, uh, it is cured. I mean, it is Brian. I'm sorry. And um, then it is. Uh, smoked. And to internal of about 145 150. And then, then it's packaged. After it cools. Right. So, I mean, color fade is a well-known problem in cured meats. Um, Because of light. And I years ago had done some research on how to ameliorate color fading of cured meats. Um, I mean, obviously the, the main thing to do is not to expose them to light. Any nitrite cured meat is going to uh, gray out on you if you, if you expose it to like. That's why, you know, when you go to the store and you see the old bacon, it's all gray. You know what I mean? Because you lose the color in light. But, um, I'm going to have to, uh, it's been many, many years since I've read the papers on, um, any attempts to make the pigmentation in
+
+[26:16] cured meat light fast. I mean, if you store it in darkness, it shouldn't fade on you at all. But I don't know of a way off the top my head to preserve the color if you're going to have it be exposed to light in a retail environment. Now, I'm sure there is, because I remember reading about years ago. This is a big problem that meat producers have, right? And so I'm sure it's been solved, but I'm going to have to, um, I'm going to have to put that one on the, uh, I'm going to have to put that one on the, on the, on the side, do some more research for you
+
+[26:50] and, uh, and talk about it maybe next week when we come back. Stas, you will send an email to yourself for next week for you're done. All right. So I'll do some research because it's something that I read about years ago, but I just don't have it on the tip of my
+
+[27:01] head, tip of my head. doesn't make any sense. Anyway. But, like, I'm interested. I was able to find that it is used as an anti-caking it, but the, uh, it's going to have to be
+
+[27:13] the back to the sign, I think. It's going to have to be at a super low level. And I also see that it's added in... What do you mean super low? I mean, I'm going to have to look up. I'm going to have to look it up. Um, E535, sodium ferrocyanide. I don't know how much is in there, but my mom studies it with 3%. Maybe maybe it's 3% of the anti-caking agent, but it can't be
+
+[27:42] 3%. Yeah. So then the question is, what percentage of the salt is anti-caking
+
+[27:48] agent? You see what I'm saying? Yeah, as I understood, it was it was 97 and three. Yeah, no, it can't possibly, like, 3% of sodium ferro cyanide, which is prussic, like, I think it's basically the same as prussic
+
+[28:06] acid, would be, it would be death to us. Um, has to be, I mean, when it interacts with the
+
+[28:14] acid. Yeah, it's gonna, I mean, like, it's gonna have to be a much, much lower percent. Um, But I'll look it up. I'll look it up and I'll tweet that one out and then I'll also talk about it next week when I come back. Okay, can I send you email of any things I find? Yeah, sure. Yeah, the best way for me to see it. send an email to the regular radio, email, or just tweet, tweet me at at cooking
+
+[28:42] issues, and then I can, I'm much faster because I see my tweets pretty much every day.
+
+[28:46] Okay. And the email... Which one what do we use now, Stas? We use, uh, what, uh, Lopez.nastasiagmail.com? lopez.nastasia gmail.com. Yeah, shoot it my way and I'll definitely take a look at it because I'm interested to know how much cyanide they're allowed to put into our
+
+[29:06] salt. All right. Thanks, baby, have a good day. Now you too. All right, back to Brandon Hawkins. He writes, Hammer and the Nails. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for a really good salami maker. Thank you, Brandon from Phoenix, Arizona. Now, the question is, what do you mean by good salami maker? Now, do you mean like the people that make salami, like a producer of salami? In which case, I've never had the, you know, Jack, have you ever had anything from the underground meats collected? Yeah, it's very good. Hey, thanks for sharing it, brother. Thanks. We'll get you some more. Yeah, yeah. I've never tasted it. I'm sure it's good I'd like to try it. I'd like to try their award-winning goat salami. Would you like to try their award link? Yeah, I would like that, but no, nothing for us. Anyway. All right. I mean, I like here in New York. I like the Salamaria Bielace guys. I think they're really good And, I mean, I think they're excellent, in fact. And, um, I love their products. And they were some of the, like, early, they were really early in the wave of people in America trying to make actual high quality salumi.
+
+[30:09] So a lot of people who, you know, in the past decade or so
+
+[30:13] have, um, started making, um, so let me owe a lot to them because a lot of people learned, uh, and a lot of people who, like a lot of people who have taught other people, have learned from them. And so, you know, they're they're one of the, you know, I think one of the people who deserve a lot of credit for what's going on in the, in the
+
+[30:29] U.S. today. I mean, another early, an early salami thing, although I haven't had his products was Bertoli, cooking by hand, which is a book we talked about before, had a really interesting section on salami in it.
+
+[30:41] I think that's, you know, that cookbook, I don't know if people read that. Did people still read that cookbook? Does Mark like that book? I don't know. I don't know. I thought it was at the time it was a classic. I haven't read it in a while. Um, uh, the, uh, Chris, Chris Costantino, our friend, uh,
+
+[30:55] Bocolone makes a good product out of uh, San Francisco, Armandido Batali, Mario's dad. You've had his stuff, right? Stars? Really? He has a salumi place in what's it called? What's that place called? Seattle. And, you know, good products. I had some of his stuff. It's a lot of good, but if that's not what you mean, maybe you mean equipment to make salami, in which case, for a curing box, I mean, the cheap way to go, you go
+
+[31:18] to like Auburn instruments, or anyone get like a PID control for your, and they have a humidity controller for your, for your fridge, or maybe you
+
+[31:25] mean the sausage stuffer. Sausage stuffer. I really don't think there's any need to spend like a boatload of money on a sausage stuffer. I've used the really expensive ones that are like 100s and 100s of dollars for the £5 press, and then I've
+
+[31:38] used the, you know, $89 one from Northern Tool or Grizzly or whoever happens to be selling them like to hunters. And the build quality is maybe a little better on the ones that are really expensive, but they stuff sausages just the same, you
+
+[31:54] know? And so like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, unless you're a pro and you're doing it every day. I mean, it's a little bit harder to sanitize, uh, the crappy hunters ones because the welds aren't as good and so it's a little bit more difficult to sanitize, but otherwise I would just stick with the $89 sausage
+
+[32:09] stuffer. What do you think, does? Sounds good. Answer the question. All right. All right. Okay. So, uh, interesting thing in from Michael Napkin. And this fits in. This is like this like 3 things kind of fit into this farm to toilet kind of movement that we're, you know, dealing with
+
+[32:27] the, uh, or if you have a composting toilet, I guess, toilet to farm to toilet,
+
+[32:31] right? That was what we're going to have. like Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drake was joking that we're going to do the farm to toilet show.
+
+[32:39] We're not. We're not going to do that. And then I was joking with Jack that we need to start the farm bed, farm to toilet movement. But anyway, I think it started. The farm and toilet movement? When this morning? Just now, yeah. Yeah, just now. farm to toilet. Okay, but Michael Nackin writes in, our good friend. And Nastasia bought like 8 copies of his book. I did. Like, you bought it for all your friends? And family, yeah. Nice. Uh, he wrote in and he said, uh, what, you know, what do you, what do you make of this? And it was this. Go on amazon.com and look up by Bernard Jensen, tissue
+
+[33:15] cleaning, like tissue, not like blow your nose tissue, but like your bodily tissue. Stas hates the word tissue as it pertains to bodily parts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tissue cleansing through bowel management. Yeah, that's Stas is making the bowel face. Tissue cleansing through bowel management. Uh, and you got to go. And, you know, and Michael's, basically, it's like, like, holy crap, take a look at this. You got to look at the cover. The cover of this, uh, is, uh, it's like a yin yang thing, right? One half's in color, and one half's in black and white, and the center of the yin yang goes through the backside of like what looks to be a 10-year-old naked boy's butt with like an image of the colon, like you might have inside,
+
+[34:05] like, like right there at the center of the yin yang thing. And on the left side, the black and white side. It's all industrial pollution and like airplanes and power plants and factories. And on the right side in color is like all apple trees and sunlight and
+
+[34:19] Boyd's and all sorts of nice stuff, right? And so right off the bat, just like you look at this picture and you're like, this guy's going to be a nut job. And so the awesome thing about it is you can look at a lot of it in the Amazon look inside thing. And so, here's a choice, a choice tidbit, and I appreciate, you know, Michael bringing this to my attention, because this shows, like, here's the thing, right? It's like, it's like any one of a number of, like, the master cleanse idiot that we spoke about before, that there's all these people who follow these cleansing regiments, and they're written by lunatics who have this idea that one single problem
+
+[34:54] is or one single issue is the reason and a solution to all of our problems. And it's part of this really, really pernicious magic bullet thinking, this, this, like this, this idea, which really, really honestly dates back, you know, 100s of years, but in the US, most prevalent sense, uh, you know, gram and uh, and kind of like this, uh, and then later the, the sanitarium, the, and the, uh, the sanitarium movement and the, um, like the water cure movement and the, uh, prohibition movement, all the temperance movement, all of these kind of
+
+[35:29] things stem from this font of evil pernicious thinking that is modern humans have degenerated,
+
+[35:39] right? And we've lost kind of touch with ourselves and our bodies, right? And so we need to get back to that by purging and cleansing ourselves of all these toxins and problems,
+
+[35:51] right? And today that manifests itself in juice cleanses and other sort of BS detoxifying crap, right? That you hear all about you. Back in the day, it manifest itself with eugenics and mass genocide. You know what I mean? But it's like, it's all like the same problems that there's a degeneration of, by the way, people are going to say I'm being hyperbolic, but it really comes from the
+
+[36:17] same. And if you read, if you go back and you read, uh, where like a lot of these like super crazy things come from. They spring from an idea that human beings have degenerated and that there is this higher earlier self. And it's also, unfortunately, mixed in, if you look at the history of it, mixed in with good tinges of
+
+[36:37] misogyny. There's usually a good dose of anti-Semitism thrown in there. Like, there's all sorts because, you know, back in the, uh, 1800s and early 1900s prior to the, prior to Nazis when a lot of the, like,
+
+[36:51] classic in quote, like, well-known literature onto generation was being written that has to go. And in fact, there's a guy, Nordau, is the classic author of the book, Degeneration, which is kind of like the cornerstone of semi-modern, uh, pseudo-scientific thinking on the generation of human beings, literally says things like, uh, literally says things like, uh,
+
+[37:12] impressionist painters, just because that's the era he was writing in. impressionist painters. The reason they paint the way they do is that their eyes have degenerated, and they can't see the world, like you and I can see it. Like, really, like stupidity on that level. Remember, this is the same time people were going around measuring people's skulls to try and prove that the
+
+[37:31] Northern European was vastly superior based on the geometry of their skull,
+
+[37:37] right? And their brain heavy, like all of these sorts of things. And you could tell what a criminal was like by the bumps on their phrenology. you know, all of these are part and parcel of this idea that there was this this great old thing that we've degenerated to. And they, like this current feeling of that right now that manifests itself in detoxing, right, has its roots in this same sort of demented thinking,
+
+[38:03] right? And people just don't connect the dots of where their ideas come from.
+
+[38:07] So here's a quote from, uh, and he's not talking about, you know, eugenics here, although Kellogg, who was one of these
+
+[38:14] guys, you know, the serial guy Kellogg was a believer in eugenics, as were a lot of these, uh, uh, early, like a lot of these early people, crazy.
+
+[38:21] Anyway, here's the quote that I love. The bowel wise person is a blessing and source of inspiration to family and associates.
+
+[38:29] His cheerful disposition comes from having a vital, toxin free
+
+[38:33] body, made possible by the efficient, regular and cleansing action of a loved and well cared for bowel.
+
+[38:40] Every person who desires the higher things in life, must be aware of proper bowel management, what it is, how it works, and what is
+
+[38:48] required, in so doing, you will discover many secrets of life.
+
+[38:52] That's a great quote. Yeah, yeah. So if you just get your pooper in order, like, you know, all that cancer problem you have,
+
+[39:00] gone. Anyway, thanks, Michael, for that little bit of craziness. I appreciate it. I encourage all of you to go look at that crazy cover that person has. But on the subject of poop. Got 2 good poop stories. One, Nils Norin got back from Bali recently and went to a
+
+[39:15] Kopi-Lulock farm, and I hadn't realized. So Kopie Luak is the coffee that comes up from Indonesia, and what they do is, is these civets, right? Which are these, they're called civic cats, but they're not cats, and it's Piper reminded me this morning. They're weasels. They're weasels. They're weasels, Piper, like Piper is a hater of many animal varieties, hates beavers. They're on, in quotes, the list, right? Hates weasels of any variety. Anyway, hates rodents too, as we know. We were threatening to put a woodchuck in a car with him. Remember that? Anyways, do not threaten or do not even joke with Piper about putting a woodchuck or any form of rodent in a car that he happens to be in.
+
+[39:53] he's no sense of humor about it, that guy. Anyways, so I didn't realize that Kopi, so what happens is these civets, they eat the, uh, they eat the ripest choices coffee, uh, cherries, right? And then the bean, they digest the outer hull, and they poop out the bean, and then you harvest the pooped out
+
+[40:13] beans, and one, they only eat the ripe ones, which is good because that means, you know, you're only getting the ripest berries. And two, their digestive system is supposed to do something cool to the to the coffee. And there's been studies on it that show that, in fact, it is altered in certain ways by going through the digestive system. Anyways, so they have farms now in Bali, and the one I think that Nils went to is Bali Polina, and Nils brought back some Kopi Luak for us to
+
+[40:42] roast because it's a green coffee, not roasted, which is amazing. But he brought me back the special one that they don't sell. They had one lying around. This one, Stas. You saw it, right? You haven't seen it yet? I have a picture. I tweet it out. It's still in log form. Now, I don't know about anyone else listening to this program, but my hat's off to the
+
+[41:02] civet for being able to like create a full on log after eating all of that coffee. These little suckers are eating just coffee, straight coffee, and like pooping out what looks like, um, like popcorn ball logs of like coffee beans cemented together with very little else.
+
+[41:22] And you know that if you and I were to eat that much coffee, like we would be set on spray, like indefinitely, there wouldn't be any any log action. So anyway, I'll tweet the picture of that out and then I have to figure out. I don't have that much of it. And so I have to figure out what the best washing and roasting thing is, but
+
+[41:39] we'll run through it. Maybe we'll put some stuff out, but I'd never seen it in log forms. That's the 2nd poop story. And for the 3rd poop story in our farm to toilet edition of cooking issues. Uh, yesterday, uh, Nastasia and Piper, at the lab, were making
+
+[41:54] lunch, and I wasn't really paying much attention to what they were making from lunch, and, uh, as they're eating, as they're halfway through their lunch, I walk over and I notice that they both have giant plates
+
+[42:05] of, uh, of greens and freaking Jerusalem artichokes,
+
+[42:11] sunchokes. And I'm like, Holy crap. Are you guys for real? And they're like, what? What? I was like, you really never read the curious cook, have you? They're like, well, you know, parts, I was like, you haven't read The Curious Cook, have you? And they're like, no, even though literally, we have a copy of it in the office waiting for Harold McGee to come back and sign because we're going
+
+[42:32] to, we're going to auction that off at one of the museum things, right? So, uh, as McGee points out in The Curious Cook, which is a book you should all go get, uh, Sunchokes are the fartiest vegetable in the
+
+[42:49] freaking world. They're like the fartiest vegetable. They are, so they store their carbohydrates in the form of inulin, which is, I believe, a complex chain of fructose, but your body can't digest this stuff,
+
+[43:03] all right? And it contains a bootload of it. It's like almost, I think, like, it can be as much as like 40% undigestible inulin in these frigging things, right? And so when you pound it. So if you have a couple of pieces of Jerusalem artichoke in a salad, all right, that's not that much like indigestible stuff. These guys were eating. split a pound. Yeah, you you split, you ate a half a pound a piece of completely insoluble freaking inulin
+
+[43:33] fiber, like the fart machines. 5 o'clock, we were like, I don't feel so good. And then we were running outside and like, you know, doing our business. And then an hour later we were like, eff it. We're just gonna do it in front of each other. Just gonna roll with it. Yeah, and I, hey, people, I was the beneficiary of all this, but as it says, in the introduction to chapter 5 of The Curious Cook, which I'll read from,
+
+[44:00] taking the wind out of the sunroute, it is strange that among North America's meager handful of contributions to the modern table, 2 of them should prove to be of such
+
+[44:09] mixed mixed blessings. One is the persimmons, whose delights and shortcomings are described in chapter 9. you have to go buy the book. You get it on book finder. McGee, republish this sucker. anyway. The other is the so-called Jerusalem artichoke. Actually, the snappily crisp tuber of a sunflower. This vegetable does develop a mild flavor reminiscent of artichokes when it's cooked. After centuries of neglect. It's showing up again in the markets and being grown or growing itself in home gardens. Unfortunately, the Jerusalem artichoke surpasses even dry beans in its power to cause flatulence. Not all cookbooks point this out, and those that do offer few preventative tips. I've tracked down a couple of simple procedures that tone down the Jerusalem artichoke significantly. I also found that the usual explanation for the vegetable's peculiar name was demolished decades ago. There's long been a plausible alternative, and the time has come to dust it off. Well, I won't spoil because you should go read what you should go read this section. So I won't spoil about all the history that McGee goes into, but he says
+
+[45:06] that, and it's interesting because did you know this, Jack? I don't know if you knew this. A well-known fact, though, if you know, McGee, McGee's career as a food writer started with the
+
+[45:17] farting bean problem. Did you know that? I did know that because we did an evolutionaries life story on him, and that's that's pretty much how it opened. Yeah, all right. Fascinating. So McGee is a, you know, he's he was at Caltech, and then he went to Yale for graduate in literature, I guess. And he's looking to write something. He's right. And someone asks them about, like, why do beans make you fart? And so he researches that. And that was the genesis of on food and cooking was that. And then, uh, and then later, in Curious Cook, he tackled the even fartier problem of Jerusalem Artichokes. And if Nastasia and Piper had only read that section, they probably would
+
+[45:57] have, A, not eaten quite as much of it. And B, they would have followed McGee's suggestions to slice it thinly and boil
+
+[46:04] it. For the better we found out with each other because I told Piper, you can never make that for a girl for dinner and expect her to stay over. What if he had done that? I know. So it's good that it happened. Holy crap. And I asked him whether it was a painful sort of farty and he said it was a painful soda farty. Because it blows you up like a balloon. Anyhoo, so slice it thin, and boil it for like 15 minutes, McGee says, that reduces it, or McGee says, cook it for a very long time, like 24 hours in a very low
+
+[46:31] oven. It turns black and sweet because the indulin's broken down into fructose and then it's digestible. I sent McGee a text. earlier today. I haven't heard back yet whether or not he's ever tested doing the Jerusalem artichoke in a circulator, but I haven't heard back. So we'll see. Farm to toilet edition of cooking issues. Hey, before the show's up too, we were wondering at the station, if you had to make a cocktail for Thanksgiving dinner, what would you go with?
+
+[46:59] Me? You. Endastasia, for that matter. Well, what point of the evening am I having it? This would be like the pre-dinner cocktail. carbonated. Ah, carbonate cocktail. Pre-dinner? I like something with bubbles. Like, uh, I mean, I don't want something really heavy that's gonna drag me down. I like starting with a carbonated beverage. What about you, Stas? What would you mean, she's like champagne. The best cocktail in the world. Champagne. Uh, but you're thinking about like seasonal stuff. Piper's got that red hot poker squash drink, but I wouldn't do that before the Thanksgiving meal. Uh, yeah. I mean, I'd probably go. I'm trying to think of Sonya would be seasonal at that time. I don't know. We can think about it for next week. We have 2 weeks of Thanksgiving? All right. Oh, and by the way, speaking of, you still have time to order your heritage turkey from
+
+[47:49] Heritage Meats. our, our, what are they, what are, what's our relationship to them? I mean, obviously Patrick Martin's. Our founders. Our founders. So, but the meat company is our founders? Heritage Foods USA founded the radio station. Yeah. So our founding fathers. There you go. All right. But I have something on cocktails. I can get to it in a minute, but first, I got something in from Robert, I
+
+[48:13] lax, Esquire, about the, about the Mr. Softy thing we were talking about last week. Dear Dave, Nastasia and Gang. A sincere thank you for the fantastic show, which has introduced me to many great new techniques and has improved my cooking skills and enjoyment immeasurably. That's nice. Now, this guy knows what he's talking about, because here's what he says. As a former good humor man. He was a driver of a good humor truck, which is awesome. As a former, good humor man, and now an amateur ice cream maker, and enthusiastic ice cream eater, I share your interest in Mr. Softy, which I consider to be a fantastic
+
+[48:45] product, although it is inexpensive, and without pretense, it tastes delicious, and I prefer it to many of the more artisanal soft serve offerings now
+
+[48:52] available. When I drove a good humor truck 25 years ago while I was in college, the sound of the Mr. Softy truck meant I would have to find another neighborhood to pedal my wares that day. Good humors offerings are simply no competition for the Mr. Softy. Boom. That's strong. The guy's like, I was selling the good humor. And when the Mr. Softy truck came, mah. But here's the problem. I have noticed that the problem of Mr. Softy product variability. Oh, anyway, as you noted last week, Mr. Softy machines allow for variable overrun and provide a way for unscrupulous Mr. Softy
+
+[49:26] drivers to sometimes provide more air than ice cream. Through some investigation, he's a lawyer. So he was like investigating this stuff, which I love. He a fraud lawyer, which is amazing. I love this crap. I discovered that the actual problem of Mr. Softy variability has a different explanation, uh, and it kind of more sinister. So he's going around and he was noticing that some ones were really crappy and it wasn't just that it was lighter, but that the texture was wrong, right? It was a bad texture thing. So he looks up that, that he looks up that, that Mr. Softie's telephone number, right? And he beats his weight and as he notes, right? When I remember I told you I went to their to their warehouse, their supply depot, and they're not used to human beings at all. Like, it's just not what they do. And somehow, like, at the time, I was, I don't know, I guess in my late 20s or something, at the time, they were like, ah, the and they just let me buy the Mr. Softy mix. Uh, so he similarly like somehow like waited his uh, way through it and got to the president of Mr. Softy, right? And um, the guy knew about it. Like, so, and like, he made it through, I guess, because he was like, listen, I, you know, I grew up eating my whole life. I love Mr. Softy. I even used to be your competitor and I quit because your product is so much better than what I was selling. you know, so he gets through the president and and Mr. Softy knows what the problem is. and here it is, ready? The president, Mr. Softy, explained to me that the trucks are owned by franchisees, many of whom hire drivers to run them.
+
+[50:51] The franchisees keep track of the cash receipts they expect to receive from those
+
+[50:56] drivers by reference to the amount of Mr. Softy mix that is used. A given amount of mix makes an expected number of servings and an expected range of cash receipts. The problem, he explained, is that some drivers try to hide cash from their bosses by stretching the
+
+[51:11] Mr. Softy mix, by cutting it with plain milk, and then pocket the extra cash. The weasels. The result is a substandard product for the consumer, less cash for the
+
+[51:22] franchisee and less royalty for Mr. Softy. He didn't elaborate, but he told me that they were taking measures to tackle this problem. Anyway, I thought you would find this interesting. I do, Robert. It's extremely interesting. I detest food fraud in any form, whether it's by messing with the
+
+[51:36] over. X factory. I'd rather than mess with the overrun because at least then I got a light product and I know that the guy shafted me. If they add milk, then you think, as you did, that Mr. Softty's quality is just going downhill. It's a huge problem. You know what I mean? And like, it's like, it's so old school. It's so old school fraud. It's like, you know, watering vodka or, or, you know, you know, adult running milk back in the old days. That's like, that really pisses me off. That pisses me the hell off. Uh, I don't know how they're going to fix that, but they should, you know, I guess they have to change how they're
+
+[52:09] struggling, whatever. Anyway. He also says, it would be great if you could send a shout out to my good friend and your former caller,
+
+[52:14] Steve from Moscow, who turned me on to the show, and which gives us weekly reason to keep in touch and discuss the wisdom we learn from each podcast.
+
+[52:21] Thanks and best regards, Rob. Well, thank you, and on the way out, I will notice this a couple weeks ago, we were talking about eggplants and how they are kept super blue in Japanese pickles.
+
+[52:33] And I got a note in from Jen's Genten, who says that they're blue because literally in Japan, they put iron eggplants, eggplants, little eggplant figures, figures,
+
+[52:45] little eggplants made of iron into the pickling medium when they do it, and that's what causes them to stay blue.
+
+[52:52] Thanks, Jen, Gens, rather. Iron eggplants, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Brooklyn Slate Company, a manufacturer of slate cheeseboards, coasters, and other fine items. For more information, visit brooklynslate.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from a birth pizzeria every Tuesday on Heritage Radio Network from Tuesday from Tuesday. Well, it's Tuesday. From roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Uh, we were joined in the studio by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, but she had to take an urgent business telephone call.
+
+[0:46] She is out. I don't know where she is right now, but we do have in the studio with today Piper, Piper, Piper, Christiansen, right? Yep. Yeah. Uh, and we are joined in the studio, but maybe maybe Stas left because Joe is in the uh, engineering booth today, not Jack. There's this, you know, new beef that style started last week with between, you know,
+
+[1:06] her stuff. I heard about this beef. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize, but you know, it's okay. We'll have like a east-west coast rap battle thing go on or something like that. Something, yeah, something like that. But yeah, you know, so anyways, don't have Jack. We do have a newcomer in the engineering booth. Evan, how you doing, Evan? Great, how are you? doing all right? Like, so this is the 1st time cooking issue show, right? All right, calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 with any of your cooking related questions. We'll be here to answer your questions for the next 45 minutes or so. Okay. This in from Tony Harriet, from the mixing bar in Brazil,
+
+[1:49] you know, dealt with him over the years. I've never been to his bar because I've never been to Brazil. I'd like to go to Brazil. You been? We should do that. Yeah, but I mean, like they have like the great, like some of the greatest fruit. in the world in Brazil. I have, you know, I have whole textbooks on the crazy different fruits of Brazil. In fact, I believe it's called, it's not called Crazy Fruits of Brazil, but it's called Fruits of Brazil, and it's got a kind of a weird, I really love it because it's got a weird kind of like light blue cover and all the pictures of the fruit are on this like weird grid system that's like light blue and like they're all crazy colors and some things they look like
+
+[2:23] fruits. I mean, like, honestly, they're like, it's, you know, like, if you were going to come up with, like, an alien movie. You would look for the fruits in this fruits of Brazil book. And then the thing I really like about the book. Love it about it. I mean, is that it's very hard to get, actually. You can get it at the Fruit and Spice Park and their gift shop in South Dade. And there's a couple of Hawaiian fruit tree suppliers that sell it. But the, and it wasn't on the Amazon when I checked. strange. Anyways, what's awesome is, is that it has a section in the back called exotic fruits, and you know what's in there, Piper? Stripper fruits? No, uh, the apple. Oh. Because in Brazil, that crap's exotic. They're like an apple? Wow. Apple. I think what they mean by exotic is not from Brazil. Right. Although now I have a scripper fruit, when you were a kid, well, you were younger, a lot younger, confused by the fact that Striper, which sounds like
+
+[3:17] stripper, is a Christian band? I don't know the band. No, no, no. too young. Joe, you with me on this? You know the history of rock anyway? Not the history of Christian rock, I don't think. I'm pretty sure Stripe is a Christian heavy metal band. Now, someone will look it up for me. Okay, this end from Tony. Hello? Heritage Radio Network and Cooking Issues team. Hope all is well. I had a couple of questions for Dave about non-alcoholic cocktails for the next show. Piper, you can chime in here too. Dave, what is your opinion about the importance of non-alcoholic drinks on bar menus. In your view, what makes a great alcohol free drink and what just doesn't work? Can you give a few examples of interesting drinks? It works for you in the past at events or at booker index, either high or low tech. And what are a few solutions that you try to use to mimic slash substitute for the taste or flavor,
+
+[4:02] a kick of booze and a non-alcoholic drink? Here's an example from Darcy O'Neill. So Darcy O'Neill is the author of the book, Fix the Pumps, and it's kind of the, you know, I would say, you know, one of the leaders in
+
+[4:13] a kind of soda, soda, jerk, soda, pump, uh, what's it called, um, resurgence in the past couple of years, and he's a chemist by trade.
+
+[4:22] He has an excellent blog called The Art of the Drink, which you should look up. And, uh, Fix the Pumps is kind of like the classic small work. I mean, small, in other words, not long. Uh, on, not small in terms of small importance, because I think it was extremely influential. Uh, on, um, kind of reviving old soda fountain stuff. And so consequently, you know, he spends a lot of time because, you know, the soda fountain movement went hand in
+
+[4:46] hand kind of with the temperance movement, people wanting to go out and do things and kind of have fun, you know, in an era where they weren't legally allowed to go pound boots. And so, you know, the golden age of the soda fountain is kind of the golden age of the
+
+[5:00] non-alcoholic, uh, mock tail kind of a situation, right? So anyway, so I highly recommend that you go buy, fix the pumps if you haven't already purchased it. Um, And he has an interesting post at this point too. All you need to look up is cognac oil. And what it is, is, is the steam distilled, like, wine leaves, I guess, from the fermentation that they do. And so, and Darcy says that it's kind of like a really
+
+[5:22] good thing to add to non-alcoholic cocktails to give some, or not mocktails or whatever. It's really kind of a bad name, mocktail. I always hated saying, I don't like saying mocktail. I don't like, I don't like the term. I don't like that you're being mocked for not having alcohol. It also implies that it's kind of an or sad drink. Yeah, yeah. It implies its own BS nature. It's bad. It's like it's like not a good term. someone needs to come out. I mean, the 1st person I'm sure who said mocktail was like, mocktail, I'm so smart, like a Piper, who's the king of puns, by the way, I don't know if he's going to bust any of
+
+[5:52] these puns out during the show, but, you know, Piper, kind of king of puns, uh, you know, that's, you know, that's that's beneath you, right? Yeah, that's a little pedestrian. Yeah, mocktail. But I'm guarantee the 1st person who thought of it thought they were a freaking genius, and now it is de facto, the term for a non-alcoholic cocktail, because non-alcoholic cocktail sounds dumb too. Yeah. All right, but still cocktails. Yeah, yeah, nap. Well, are they? I mean, shrimp cocktails. Oh, good point. The shrimp cocktail. haven't thought of a shrimp cocktail. By the way, no offense to the shrimp cocktail. The shrimp cocktail holds a certain kind of, you know, feeling, but the crappy, crappy, you know, pre-packed shrimp cocktail, like
+
+[6:37] horseradish ketchup mix, like a crappy shrimp plastered into a parfait glass is weak. Like, I would much prefer to have a very, you know, nicely made cocktail sauce, and then dip a well cooked chilled shrimp into
+
+[6:51] it rather than have it all kind of pre-glommed into a into a crappy glass. Am I wrong? No, I agree. Yeah. All right. So, again, shrimp cocktail maybe doesn't deserve the title either. And just letting the shrimp defrost on the plate. The cooked trim? Oh you hate that? What about when you bite into it and you have that little bit of graininess because it wasn't fully thawed? What about the one where they thought too much water and it inflates with fresh water and it starts dripping everywhere? Leaves everywhere? Is that your favorite? I like it with eggnog, I guess. Piper, referencing the fact that Nastasia and I did not like his eggnog. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, Nastasia, back, back in the studio, but still, but dealing with whatever the aftershocks were of the telephone calls she had to deal with. Uh, here, there's a mic over on that side. How you doing, Seth? Right. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Everything okay? Yes, relatively? Yes. Yeah, nice, sweet. I liking everything. Okay. So here is Darcy's recipe for aromatic cognac syrup. 5 ounces of de-alcoholized. It's a weird word, right? The alcoholized, the alcoholized white wine. I like to pronounce the extra H. I don't know why. When it's wine, white wine. I like to add the, I don't know why. Because I'm stupid. I think that's why. 4 tablespoons of wine jelly. 4 tablespoons, sugar, 7 drops, cognac oil, which you can get on the Amazon, by the way. I don't know the quality or not. 3 drops of chamomile essential oil, 3 drops of green peppercorn essential
+
+[8:22] oil and 2 teaspoons glycerine for texture. So Darcy and his poster, he talks about cognac ale, and I recommend looking into it. is, you know, it's all about trying to mimic the mouth feel, uh, the aromas that make you think that there's alcohol in there, and then, uh, some of the biting bracing nature. I haven't gone that far into it. I mean, Nastasia will remember, we did a, we used to, we were doing a school project with Nils
+
+[8:42] Norin years ago. We got to start that up again. I'm not going to do that in my cocktail book, but Stas, Stas thinks that when I mean, start something up that I mean like today. This is a people out there. This is the classic stuff that, this is the reason why I yell at Nastasia on air sometimes, and it makes me look like a bad guy, because she'll sit here and make
+
+[9:01] a face like I'm like a taskmaster ogre saying that we should maybe at some point revisit starting an incredibly fun project.
+
+[9:09] So yeah, so that makes me the jerk. Anyway, uh, so the, yeah, big jerk. Now, yeah, fun. Big jerk. Anyway, so school project. And we had some, the idea of the school project is, is that, you know, we take pictures of people doing a Scandinavian
+
+[9:24] ritual, the skull, where they do a cheers, uh, with uh, Akavite, or any schnapps, any, really. They do the shot, and you look in someone's eyes, you take the drink, and then you look back. And so we did these triptych pictures and it was fun. It was a fun project. But we had some people we wanted to scold who didn't drink alcohol. And so then one of our problems was, well, how do we mimic that? And our mimicked ones were kind of bad. We wanted him to taste like Akavit. So it was caraway infusions. Uh, and then to make that, like, kind of look, ah, doing a shot of Akavite. We added menthol to it. Like menthol crystals. Remember a couple years ago when everyone was putting menthol crystals in everyone? Everything? We were some of those people's menthol everywhere. Man, the people who took that shot. They made that kind of menthol face. You know, that... Menthol phase. I don't know. I didn't like it. But so when we're designing, in fact, we don't have, Piper and I have done some non-alcoholic drinks that we want to put on
+
+[10:21] the menu. There's a couple of things that you need for a non-alcoholic drink. It can't be as sweet as soda. If it's as sweet as a soda. People tend to feel that they're getting a soda. Sodas are generally in the range of about 10% sugar by weight, around 10 bricks, somewhere between 9.5 and 12, right? 12 like a toothache, but if there's a lot of bitterness and flavors going on, it can be that high. So what you need to sometimes do is tone back the sweetness, because most cocktails, like they are, in fact, less sweet than
+
+[10:53] that if they're carbonated. Now a non-carbonated cocktail can be that sweet, but it's counteracted by the fact that there's alcohol in it, which is
+
+[10:59] going to cut from the sensation of the sweetness. Um, So the issue is, is you want to do things on the dry side. That's why tonic water is so fantastic because the quinine and tonic water cuts the sweetness perception, tonic water is typically a little less sweet than
+
+[11:13] it's on the less sweet side of mixers anyway, rocking around 9.5% sugar by weight. 9.5 bricks for all you techno freaks out there. So I think adding bitterness back. The other thing is if you can make something incredibly fresh, even if it would kind of be conceived
+
+[11:31] as a soda, if it doesn't feel like a soda because it's entirely new and different from anything anyone's had
+
+[11:37] before and you can dial back the sweetness a little bit, I'll give you an example. Piper and I clarify some watermelon juice a while back and we made a very kind of light and then we added lime to
+
+[11:49] it. And with the peel in it, the peel adds kind of the essential oils of a fresh peel, which takes it less out of the soda
+
+[11:54] realm and into kind of the cocktail room and did a carbonated watermelon soda that would have been good as
+
+[11:59] a as a non-alcoholic drink. I make a strawberry soda with freshly clarified strawberry juice that
+
+[12:06] has huge punchy flavors, but it's not overly sweet. No one would confuse that for a, you know, commercially made soda. And so they would appreciate that the care and time had been made in, you know, put into it for, um, for it to be kind of registered as
+
+[12:19] some, it's like a, uh, worthy of the same feelings as an alcoholic drink. The other thing is, if you can tolerate small amounts of alcohol, like, if you're doing it just because you don't want to drink and drive, then, you know, you can add all kinds of bitters, uh, which have alcohol in it, uh, to, like, we make a hop spitters, a
+
+[12:38] hops tincture, actually, that you can add that adds, like, the real feeling that you're having kind of a beery thing to it without having a beer. If you are, if you, if you don't want anything at all alcoholic that makes it a little more difficult, then you can only do things like bittering agents and spices and not actual bitters and tinctures that are made with ethanol,
+
+[12:55] but I mean, it's only if you're being very strict because the actual amount of alcohol you're consumed is less than you would consume from eating, for instance, anything that it
+
+[13:01] fermented. Um, What do you think? Anything else, Piper, that I'm missing here? Well, I don't really drink soda, but I like sandbitter. So would there be a way to, like, make the bitterness syrup? Yeah, well, that's the thing. I mean, so like, you know, like, uh, so it's the bitter base of Campari, uh, with, uh,
+
+[13:20] it's the bittering agent. You know, what you do is, is if you have the sweetness there and you add bitter to
+
+[13:24] it, and all of a sudden it becomes more adult, and, you know, it's bitter lemon's a good one. kind of like a, you know, it's kind of like tonic, but with more oils dispersed in it, so it's cloudy, but it's got bitterness and it's more grown up. It feels slightly less sweet. It would be more grown up. Uh, so anything like that, like a sand bitters or, you know, make, would be uh, kind of a good, I
+
+[13:46] think a good choice, yeah. Also, if you just want a light more lightly alcoholic drink then, go carbonate yourself some comparian soda because that is delicious. All right. Next question. Oh, by the way, if you're looking for cooling things other than menthol, we haven't done a lot of experiments, but you're going to
+
+[14:03] want with, if you actually want to simulate alcohol, you're going to need to stimulate the trigeminal senses kind of, and I am not a fan of Szechuan buttons or things like that to do it, but there are
+
+[14:12] like sugar alcohols that can be somewhat cooling on the palette that you might want to use. And things like cubebs have a cooling effect. There's also, like, you know, certain herbs, like tarragon, can have kind of trigaminal sense, kind of, but you want to mess with that stuff back there to give people the sense that there's something's going, going on.
+
+[14:29] Yeah. Okay. Um, Eddie Shepard writes in. He has a new vegetarian book that he on the iTunes. And do you have the title of it to us? I have the title of it. I don't have the title of it. Oh, here it is. It is a new digital cookbook on the iTunes called Vibrant Vegetarian. So I'll check that out. I haven't had a chance to read it yet. See what's going on. Vibrant, a vegetarian. I'm a fan of alliteration. Piper, do you like Literation? Yeah, love it. Yeah. Everyone likes alliteration. you know that in the old days, uh, you know, before, um, you know, English was polluted by the Norman Conquest in 1066, uh, you know, English poetry, old English poetry, was a strictly alliterative and
+
+[15:11] non-riming, uh, you know, thing based on kind of a very complex structure of meter and alliteration, like old school
+
+[15:19] Beowulf is, it's, it's completely unintelligible, but it makes you pine for the days when alliteration was kind of the way to go.
+
+[15:26] And we still have that sense of alliteration in our language. That's why rap in English sounds so awesome. You know, especially American English with all kind of our flat, our flat pronunciation of everything. It's why rap is so amazing here in America. And when you ship it, I mean, no offense to MC Solar, but I mean, you know, French, no offense to French rap. But, you know, you're not, you know, anyone with me here? I agree. Yeah, all right. What about you, Joe? You with me on this? Can't say I really listen to much French rap, but yeah. Maybe you can make me a mixtape or something. Uh, yeah, look, look, like, you know, MC Solar, Galactica, it's
+
+[16:06] all good, but whatever. not as cool. It's not that it's not as cool. It's like alliteration. It's like it's like Beowulf sounds so awesome. What, we got, Dana, you got to die. You know, it's like... Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, anyway. Okay. I think that's the 1st line available. I can't remember, it's been it's been 25 years. Okay. I don't know what the hell else. How did I get on that? Oh, vibe or vegetarian. Oh, here we go. The question I wanted to ask is about dry ice. I use dry ice for a number of culinary applications for fast freezing, carrying aroma, et cetera. I also don't currently have access to liquid nitrogen. Pity, pity. Pity. But in the UK, it's not all that easy to get hold of dry ice. It isn't widely available, so generally you have to order it in reasonably large amounts, at least 10 kilograms at a time that's £22 for
+
+[16:54] you, US folks out there, which is inconvenient and quite expensive.
+
+[16:58] Get this, Piper, 80 bucks for 10 kilograms. 80 bucks. 80 pounds or 80 bucks? He says bucks. I'm sure I'm sure if he's in the UK, he has a little key set for a pound, so he could do it. We must have done the conversion for us Yeah, nice. Thanks. Nice. Especially if you are cooking for small numbers of people at a time. I wondered if you had any experience with producing your own dry ice for culinary uses. I've seen online that some equipment is available for making dry ice. These basically seem to be simple things which attach to CO2 tanks. Do you think these might be a good route for making small amounts of dry ice around a kilogram at a time in a more affordable and convenient way? Also, do you think something like these bits of equipment could be made at home rather than bought? I know Dave is both very handy with this kind of DIY stuff and also self-proclaimed cheapskate. So I'm hoping he'll have some tips on this. All the best, Eddie Shepard. Okay, so what you're looking for here, yes, I have. Yes, I have done this. You're looking for something that works on something called the
+
+[17:55] Jewel Thompson Effect. And the Jewel Thompson effect, fundamentally, is that most gases will most real gases, when they expand, you know,
+
+[18:05] rapidly and don't give off, don't have the time to give off heat to the environment, will chill.
+
+[18:11] And in fact, um, so much so that you can convert uh, CO2 at room temperature to uh, dry ice. Because remember, dry ice doesn't want to exist as a liquid in atmospheric temperatures,
+
+[18:25] uh, atmospheric pressures, rather. It doesn't want to exist as a liquid. Okay. So, uh, here's how here's how it works. Now, there are plenty of people on the internet who say that you can make dry ice by taking a CO2 fire extinguisher and putting a bag over it and then squeezing the trigger for a while and then chilling the stuff
+
+[18:41] off and you probably can make some dry ice this way. However, this is extremely inefficient process, right? So that what the items are, what you need, 1st of all, is a siphon tank. So in the US are sold as £50 CO2 cylinders with a siphon. And what that means is, there's a tube extending from the top of the tank all the way down to the
+
+[19:03] bottom so that the pressure on the top from the gas is forcing the liquid through the tube and you're actually spraying, until it
+
+[19:10] depressurizes, you're spraying liquor up liquor. Liquid, CO2 out of the out of the tank. So that's the 1st thing you need is a siphon tank. siphon tanks are also good. If you're going to fill a lot of your own CO2 tanks, you know, it's good to have a siphon tank because it's easier to fill out of a siphon tank, trust me. The other thing you're going to want to do, well, then the commercial ones, you screw a brass valve on it that can handle the high
+
+[19:34] pressures, right? And then that brass valve is designed to more efficiently expand the CO2 and convert the maximum possible amount of it into dry ice.
+
+[19:45] There's then a sack attached to that, which allows the extra gas to shoot out, and then collects the dry ice as a snow in that sack.
+
+[19:53] Now there's various, you know, and that's the cheapest one. That's like 100 bucks, that one. And then there's various kind of levels above that that, and you can make it yourself from the valve once you own the valve, and you possibly can make the valve yourself, but I don't know. I don't want to. I haven't done it, so I don't want to get into it. But then they, they kind of route it through a wooden box or a plastic box, and then the, the dry ice impacts into the box and compresses itself into a brick, and then you can make a brick that way. And I'm sure that once you have the Jewel Thompson valve scenario thing that you could modify it from a sack collector because the snow is kind of a pain in the butt. It goes away quickly to a brick maker. Now, here's the downside. This is an inherently inefficient procedure. So, uh, 1st of all, you know, if you look frigimat from Bellart in the U.S. makes uh, these makers and they caution you that it's, you're really only converting the liquid. Once you're out of liquid, you're not really converting that much more into dry
+
+[20:46] ice and the amount of liquid in your tank is not the same as the weight.
+
+[20:51] So at atmospheric, a normal cylinder at, you know, at regular room temperature, only like two-thirds of that or a little more, 70% of that is probably liquid and the rest is a form of compressed gas on top.
+
+[21:04] So already out of a £50 cylinder, your yield is down to you know, 70% of that. Now, taken to that, that on your usage base, usage basis, the best you're ever going to get is about 45, 46% of the weight of the CO2 that you spray out of it as dry ice.
+
+[21:22] So that's, of that 70, less than 50% of it's going to turn into dry ice,
+
+[21:27] right? The other thing is sucker's loud. Let me put this, let me say this again. Sucker is not quiet. You know what I mean? Because you're opening a tank and spraying it out as fast as you can. It's loud. I mean, you've done that before, Piper. It loud. Yeah, it's loud. irritating. You don't want to do it at a bar. No. Or in your living room at night. No, it feels dangerous. Yeah, it's no, it's not the fun. Anyway, I mean, it is fun, but it's not fun for other people who don't think that kind of thing is fun. And certain ones are much less efficient than others. So the thing is, you got to figure out how much is it going to cost? Usually on a £50 cylinder, you don't buy, you rent it. And so you have a rental fee on the cylinder, and then let's say it's a £50 cylinder. Let's say that 70, let's say you get a 3rd of 70 is like what's 70 divided by 3 Piper. It's like 20 like 25%. Let's say you get 25%. So a quarter of 50, you got to get like 12, 12,
+
+[22:22] 12.5 pounds of dry ice out of a £50 cylinder. So then the question is how much are you paying for the cylinder? If you're paying, the good news about the cylinder is, is that you could keep it there for 8 years, not 8 years because you need to rehydrate test. But you could keep it there forever and then make the dry ice when you need it and there's no sublimation of the dry ice when, you know, you make it when you need it.
+
+[22:42] So there's no loss that way, but you have to figure out like what your overall cost would be to buy more than you need, have it sublimate, use it, and then have it go away versus, you know, you know you're going to get £12 of
+
+[22:54] CO2 out of this tank. And I mean, dry ice out of this tank, and then is it cost effective? And I just don't know. I haven't done the math in a while, but I remember when I broke my dry ice maker. I'm buy another one if that's any indication. But, you know, of course, I had liquid nitrogen, so there's not as much need. Here's another thing. If you have a walk-in free fridge, uh, you should, before you make the dry ice, the colder your cylinder
+
+[23:20] is the higher the yield, you're going to get out of it because the more uh, of the product will be liquid. Yeah. You have a color. Oh, color, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. Dan, Seattle. 2 questions. Well, actually, one's a comment. You were talking about fish sauce last weekend? Yep. Have you ever had the red boat fish sauce that became available from Vietnam in like the last 18 months or so?
+
+[23:42] Yeah, like it a lot. Okay, because you didn't mention it on the show, and I mean, I think it's much better than anything else out there deserved one. Yeah, no, no, here's the problem. And thank you for calling and imagine. The reason is, is because the taste test that I had done was before that stuff was available. And then so when I thought taste test, I just went back into my mind of the old taste test and it wasn't in that lineup because it wasn't available yet, but yeah, that stuff's excellent. I was just curious about that. And then, um, my actual question, I made the full modernist, uh, chicken stock a week or 3
+
+[24:14] ago. And it came out fantastic, but it took me a 100 years to actually fry all the ground chicken for the amount of stock I was making.
+
+[24:22] Because I actually deep fried it, which is, my interpretation, what the recipe says to do. Yeah, that's a, I forget who originally, I mean, I remember Wiley told me about that, and that was a protocol based on some, it's like a 10 year, 12 year old protocol from someone out of Europe grinding and deep frying, but I forget who originally came up with
+
+[24:40] the, I forget who originally came up with the idea, but yeah, okay, go ahead. Okay, so came out fantastic, but on a home stove, and I've got a pretty good home stove, the time to actually deep fry, several pounds of ground chicken. I mean, it went on forever. If, if I put the ground chick, if I spread it flat on a sheet pan in the oven, can I get somewhat close to the same effect, and how much oil and time, and uh, your 1st guess at time
+
+[25:06] and tamp? Yeah, well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't spread it flat so much. I think like the whole, the benefit of the deep fry on the grind is that you're getting maximum surface area of stuff that's
+
+[25:16] browned. And so I would kind of leave it as fluffy as you can. Uh, and then I would put them on uh, on like as many pans as you can fit in your oven and just pan them in. Uh, and I would do like whatever, you know, you don't want, the trick is you don't want to scorch it. So I would probably do somewhere in the range of 375, 400 Fahrenheit. Sorry, Europe, I tear in my oven in Fahrenheit. Uh, but like, uh, somewhere in that range and let the let the stuff roast off like you would a normal bone. I don't think it's going to require that much higher. Although you probably could go higher because it's so small that, I mean, the grind, but I would still stick in that range just because I don't think it's going to be necessarily beneficial to crank it to 500 or
+
+[25:57] 550 and there's no reason to go lower. So I would be somewhere in that 375 to 425 range. If you have a convection, that'll help blow some of the moisture off and get it browning faster. Um, but I would definitely leave it kind of fluffed up because the whole concept of that recipe is
+
+[26:13] to uh, is to get browning on the maximum possible surface area of, uh, of product. I will give that a shot on my next go. Thank you very much. And do me a favor, tweet me in at cooking issues and tell me how it worked. I will, I will. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Hey, hey, you guys want to go to our 1st commercial break? We're going to come back from the 1st commercial break. Call the questions too. 718-4972128 Cooking issues.
+
+[26:51] Like what you hear so far? Support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[27:34] Brooklyn Slate Company is a collaborative effort from Brooklyn Graphic Designer Sean Tice and Parsons Graduate Student Christy
+
+[27:57] Hideka. After visiting Christie's family slate quarry in upstate New York in the spring of 2009, the 2 grabbed a few pieces for use as all-purpose boards back home in
+
+[28:06] Brooklyn. They found a number of purposes for the slate and began gifting pieces to friends.
+
+[28:11] The response was so overwhelmingly positive that the 2 struck out to produce a line of slate products. They now make regular trips to the family quarry in upstate New York to handpick their favorite pieces of black and red slate. Some of this latest source from the quarry graveyard, a collection of odd shaped pieces that were ultimately destined to be ground for use as
+
+[28:32] road cover or baseball diamonds. They then transport the pieces to their studio in Red Hook, Brooklyn, where they do additional cutting and clean the stone to be food slate. Every single piece of packaging that comes with their products from the envelope to the
+
+[28:45] burlap bag can be repurposed for other uses. The end result is a product completely unique in cut, shape, color, and overall presentation. For more information, and to order. brooklynslate.com. Now through December, enjoy 10% off your purchase at BrooklynSlate.com with discount code heritage. And we're back. I like the Brooklyn Slate People. We actually accidentally shafted them. They donated a bunch of stuff to the museum a couple of years ago, and then we had to tell them that, you know, we didn't have our 501 C3 status in order. So we love them and thank them and are sorry about that, right? I think we told them they're invited to any event that they want to. Yeah. They're good people. They make they make they make good, good. I like slate. Slate is a good product. Yeah. I mean, of course, Piper thinks so. from Vermont. Vermont. It's the New Hampshire next door. I don't know whether you guys know this. People who people who like, you know, aren't from the northeast of the of the United States might not know that you'd think that Vermont, New Hampshire, which are basically identical
+
+[29:48] structures like flipped and then stuck next to each other. Like they look identical to each other, just kind of flipped end for end and glued together, that these guys, they don't like each other so much. It's kind of like, it's kind of like they don't like each other. We're from different parts of Pangea. It's not the same place at all. I mean, like physically, they look the same, just flipped, right? I mean, Vermont looks like an upside down New Hampshire. Yeah. Or vice versa. Right. Yeah, and they're both literally right next to each other. Right, like a doppelganger. Yeah, but New Hampshire has no laws. Seabelt laws. They have no seatbelt. don't have to have insurance in Hampshire. you know that? I didn't know I don't live free or die, right? Yeah, live free or die. Turns out that whether or not you live free, you eventually will die. But anyway, interesting. Michael Nakkin writes in, he was enjoying the farm to toilet discussion we had last week.
+
+[30:37] He goes, Dave, love the tissue cleansing through bowel management rant. You exceeded my fondest expectations. Well, well, thank you. Nastasia and Piper. This is regarding their overindulgence in Jerusalem artichokes last week. which, you know, if Casey, you know, of course, you know, if you didn't hear last week, Jerusalem artichokes contain a very, very large quantity of a
+
+[31:00] non-digestible polysacchari called inulin. And when you eat a large quantity of inulin, you have painful, bloating, tooting phenomenon going on for a good long time. And I was laughing because had they just read
+
+[31:16] the curious cook, they would have known this beforehand and both Piper and Nastasia for lunch decided to just inulin themselves like straight up the wazoo.
+
+[31:24] anyway. So, uh, Michael writes in, uh, Natasha and Piper, may I suggest you read undaunted courage? If I'm remembering it right, Lewis and Clark had to over Winton, over Winton, over Winter, with
+
+[31:36] Mandan Indians for 2 years in a row in the frigid Minnesota Winters. They were stuck inside the teepees for months at a time, and guess what the main source of food was? Yep, Jerusalem artichokes. Can you imagine the aroma? Compared to that, the 2 of you are probably like a field of daisies. So you can tell Dave to quit his whining. Michael Nakkin. Nice. Nice. a good guy. Yeah, yeah, that's a good guy. Good guy. Strong. Another thing, before we go any further. Uh, we are going to announce that Booker and Dax is going to have the Kickstarter launch for the Sears
+
+[32:10] all. Sears all on Black Friday. That's right. For those of you that aren't from the United States, Black Friday is the day after Thanksgiving when everybody is supposed to go out and consume like wild people here in the U.S. for the Christmas season. And we have decided to put our Kickstarter on air for this year is all on Black Friday. You guys want to talk about this a little bit? Yeah, well, we're launching it actually in midnight on Thanksgiving. Well, it's not Thanksgiving anymore if it's midnight. Piper's the guy that came in. Maybe this is a Vermont thing. He's like, so midnight. Is that is that AM or PM? Like, it's the next frigging day. It's the next frigging day. mom listens to the show. I'm sure your mom knows that it's the next day. I'm just breaking on you Anyway, whenever I say anything, typer's like my mom listens to the show. That's what he always says, what? It's still going to feel like Thanksgiving at midnight on... Oh, I agree. I agree. You know, as far as the human body is concerned, it's not the next day till you wake up. That's why if you pull an all nighter, like your calendar gets messed. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, from a feeling standpoint, you're right. Regardless, we're launching it on midnight on Black Friday. Yeah. So the, so anyway, and we're going to have it up. We haven't decided yet whether we're going to run it to Jan one or whether we're going to kill it on the 26th of December. Have we decided? 24th. midnight on Christmas. Why would you do that? I know. You mentioned it. No, I said we should have it run through. Okay. Anyway, it'll be on Kickstarter. So here's what here's the story with it. So, you know, for those of you that, you know, I don't know, I don't know, uh, here's the problem. When you're at home, often you don't have access to very, very high intensity heat
+
+[33:53] source to do things like finished low temperature meats, there aren't anything like that. So normally a lot, what a lot of people do, which I think is a horrible idea is they use a torch. And when you use a torch, you create all sorts of off-flavors in the food that we call it, we call it torch taste. Torch taste. And it smells like products of combustion. And indeed, you know, Ariel, UC Davis, did some GC mass spec for us and show
+
+[34:17] that in fact, you are creating kind of secondary compounds from the super high intensity high heat flame from a
+
+[34:23] torch that cause these kind of off flavors. So, we developed and have a patent pending on this little device that turns
+
+[34:30] the heat from a torch into a 3 inch, uh, like infrared, uh, radiant, uh, not infrared broiler kind of, uh, that you can hold in your hand. And so it makes kind of very quick work of that. It's also, you know, reheat pizzas, whatever, do whatever you want. You know, Piper likes to grill cheese with it. I like to finish steaks. It does great work on scallops. It's the only way I would ever cook foie gras ever again. I would never cook foie gras any other way ever. It's actually a higher heat intensity than a salamander. More similar to a deck broiler. But anyway, so we're going to launch this guy. And I also like it because, like, let's say in a restaurant, it's not really for, like, very, like, heavy duty use in a restaurant because it's small and you have to hold it while you're working. We, you know, years, we have a patent on the technology. So, like, we could build a huge one that would be like the world's most insane, you know, grill if we wanted to, but that's down the line. Anyway. But in a restaurant, like if something comes out and it's not totally finished, right, you could finish it, like, you know, spot finish things. Or if you're around Gon
+
+[35:30] Marger, and you have like one particular thing you want to do, you don't want to like be near a hotline, you can finish something right there. Or if you're doing catering events or, you know, you're out at a picnic and you want to, you know, just have something you can carry around and just put like a nice flame on
+
+[35:42] kind of smaller things. It's kind of a good tool for that, right? Yeah, you agree? Um, you know, and I like it better for things. I don't like, like, it's 1st of all, it's more powerful than a heat, like, it literally plugs on a torch.
+
+[35:54] So it's converting a torch to this other thing, and you can take it off and use your torch. It's normal, or you can put this on and use it like a seersol. Um, I like it better than it's more powerful than something like a heat gun. Torch you don't want to use because it makes bad taste. Heat gun would be okay, but heat gun is much more kind of focused and smaller, and it's not as powerful. And the big thing I don't like about the he gun is got a cord on it. I hate having to have cords on stuff when I'm using it in a kitchen. It's really irritating. Anyway, so we're going to kickstart that thing. And have we agreed on the, on the kind of what we think it's, we should not talk about price or anything like that, right? Not yet, not until... Still hammering it. Because the deal is, is that we need pretty good insurance for this. So we have the insurance and we're going to have to go, um, get it manufactured right now. Piper and I go down into the basement of Booker and Dax lab and weld all these suckers by hand. And we don't intend to do that. No, we want to have the best product made that we can, so we're still working on figuring that out,
+
+[36:51] but... Yeah, so anyway, so we hope you all come by it. And this you won't have to tweet me anymore and ask me when we're finally going to Kickstarter because we're going to do it. You can see it on Al Jazeera America. I don't even, was it on that? Was it actually on? Yeah. Did it look okay? you see that? I haven't seen it yet. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Oh, hey, we started a Twitter for the Booker and Dax lab. Oh, yeah, what is it? At Booker and Dax Lab. We'll be posting some photos of the Sears all and the stuff we do there. antics. Follow, follow, follow, follow the, follow the Epokerindax Lab. Follow us. Yeah. What were you saying? going on? Hey, so, Dave, I have a question in that's basically, what does the trans fat ban mean for the mass marketers of things like sweets and candy and
+
+[37:36] everything that has lots of transfats in them? It'll probably just make it a little more expensive. You can remove trans fats. Like there's, you know, like you can go into the store right now and buy trans fat free Crisco. Uh, it's just uh, probably going to be a uh, cost increase. I mean, I would say that's about it. There's no, in other words, the transness of the fat doesn't change the functionality of the fat. The transness of the, so, the deal is, is that, um, when you, um, you know, when you remake and break double bonds, you can do it in a way where, uh, where they, they, depending on cis and trans has to do with what side of uh, of a, you know, a double bond they, the substituted chains are on, cis, meaning it's on the same
+
+[38:22] side and trans, meaning it's on the opposite side. Uh, and so, um, the cissness or transness doesn't affect really things like the
+
+[38:31] temperature at which the fat melts or anything like that, uh, it affects more
+
+[38:35] the, um, affects more how your body reacts to it. And so the, it's in the manufacturing of fats that they produce,
+
+[38:44] um, you know, of uh, things like Crisco and other shortings that they produce these trans fats. So all you have to do is then get rid of the trans fats or do another process to summarize them to trans. And so all I can foresee really is a price, uh, maybe a
+
+[39:01] pricing increment and not a functionality increment. If that makes sense. Yeah, makes a little bit sense. Okay. Got a question in from, we talked enough about the Sears author. good. What about what's it called? Booker and Dax Lab? At Booker and Dax Lab? At Booker and Dax Lab? Who runs that? You run that, Piper? Stas? co-run it? The Hammer and Piper. So if you need, if you don't want to, if, like, you know, Mustache's Twitter handle is Hammer at Hammer BDX. I dont think she ever looks at it. I do. Yeah. Every day. yeah. And Piper, I think, has Piper BDX or something, I guess, right? Yeah, not getting a lot of action these days. No? Nice. All right. Anyway, follow those guys and for all the what's a who's. anyway. Alex writes in. Hello, Dave Hammer and the revolving cast of others, Jack, or whomever else there may be there at this day. Oh, what's up, whomever? Oh hello. Yeah. Excellent show. efforts are greatly appreciated. I have convinced my wife that a kitchen update is a good idea. strong. I am stealthily trying to put some more precise slash modern tools into the plan. We have a 6 burner gas range and I want to expand my options. My wife is reluctant to give up the storage or the counter space, but she is open to a flat top, perhaps even a 24 inch
+
+[40:13] acu steam griddle if I can find one in good shape. Uh, Akistin griddle for those of you that don't as a, is like a sandwich layer, stainless steel griddle that has water on the inside, and it has an extremely fast recovery rate.
+
+[40:23] Everyone that has it in a short order situation, loves it because the recovery rate is almost instant, and everybody respects them and thinks they're great. The only downside of them is that they can fail because they're a pressure vessel and need repair and repair on an
+
+[40:37] accurate team is expensive. So if you talk to people who don't make, you know, people, other griddle suppliers and you're like, what about AccuStam? They're like, 0 it's great. The only thing that we can say is that it might break and then you're at SOL. Anyway, that's just my my two, my ¢2, but they are good products. Uh, well, they look fun, uh, and then release my uh, inner short order cook, that's the AccuStream. I don't know how much use of it get in a world where a fry pan or 2 will usually do. You know what? Another good thing to get, any sort of like the problem with most griddles is they don't have a super, not really high heat enough and they don't heat up quickly enough. In my house, I have an actual gas fire, the electric ones are garbage. A gas fired, uh, crampuz, crate maker, which is, how wide is this, 18 inches my hands? 24. Yeah, it's somewhere between 18, 24 inches. Uh, cast iron top heats up to, if I needed to, to 615 can throttle down to, um, you know, down to uh, low enough temperature to do pancakes that are even lower. and it's super fast and it's fairly
+
+[41:36] compact and it's on the counter. gas fired. This thing is awesome. They're hard to find here in the US, but next time you're in France, they're not that expensive in France, and you can't get them here in the US. They just cost twice as much as they should. anyway. I do not know how much I would get to use a griddle where a fried pan or
+
+[41:50] 2 would usually do. Instead, I want to push. I tell you what's good on that crate maker is razor clamps. Oh, razor clams, plancha style. Instead, I want to push for a 20 to £35 tube deep fryer. I've been okay with frying on the range top, though the small batches and consistently adjusting the temperature, recover them, and then not overheat them can be a pain. So a better solution is sought. I have heard you mentioned it to become a master of the fry. You need a real fryer, Drew. True. My wife's concern is the safety, maintenance slash cleaning requirements, and how big it should be to be useful. Assuming I use a quality fry oil, and you should get commercial fry oil, by the way, commercial. What kind of life can I expect out of the oil? How often is it filtered replaced? How should it be stored? Besides a type K fire extinguisher? Are there any other safety precautions you recommend, any features I should seek? Any other advice on whether or not a fryer is a good idea? Thank you, keep up with good work. Well, look, from a cooking standpoint, there's no question that a deep fryer is a good idea. It's unquestionable. From a cooking standpoint. Let me put it this way. There is no question. Oil lasts in a home environment for a tremendously long time. If you, you know, you fit filter it regularly. I just keep it in the fryer and cover it completely so that it's not exposed to air or light so that you're not getting light-based oxidation or a lot of
+
+[43:04] oxygen, oxidation in the top of it. And it lasts for a long, long time. And you can just test it in between fries with
+
+[43:11] a, with like a piece of bread to taste to see whether the oil is starting to get that cardboardy, rancid taste, but because you're using a tube fryer and all the stuff sinks to the bottom, it's going to last a long time, getting, you know, a stainless steel
+
+[43:21] pot and you're good. Like the iron ones aren't as good for keeping. Anyway, here's the thing. Your wife is 100% right. These are completely not necessarily safe in a home environment. They're not rated for a home environment. And let me put it this way. This might avoid your homeowner's insurance. If you have a fire based on having a deep fat fryer in your house, commercial deep fat fryer in your house, your homeowner's insurance might be void. Let me say that again. Your homeowners insurance might be void. Also, if you're not set up to battle a fire from a fryer or you don't know how to use a
+
+[43:53] fryer or you're going to freak out if there's a fire, this is a dangerous proposition. I will point you at these YouTube things. Look up mythbusters, water on oil, fire, right? And they have awesome slow-mo images of them dupping a cup of oil into an oil fire and showing what
+
+[44:11] happens. This is, by the way, why you don't ever have a deep fryer next to a stove because you might spill oil into
+
+[44:16] something, and then what happens is, is that the water instantly vaporizes. And if oil is, let's say when you're using a fryer, you should never leave it. ever. You should never leave it unintended because you can see if it's starting to go over hot on you. If it goes over hot, in order it's a thermostat breaks and it goes into runaway, thermal runaway. Once the oil auto ignites, and then if something like water hits it after it's auto ignited, then you're
+
+[44:40] misting, the water hitting it will cause tiny oil droplets to be, you know, sprayed into the atmosphere like a, like a, like an
+
+[44:48] aerosol. That aerosol will ignite into a fireball, right? Here's the other problem about fire extinguishing an oil fire. If you fire extinguish an oil fire on, if you have oil that just spills out of the fryer and hits a heating element and ignites, sure, then you
+
+[45:03] can, you can hit it with a, with a type K fire extinguisher. And it's not gonna be a big problem. If you have thermal runaway, and your entire batch, £30 of oil is at auto ignition temperature, and you spray it, what you're doing is you're spraying oil, with the, with the, with the extinguisher, you're spraying oil at its auto ignition temperature all over your kitchen, where it will then, again, ignite as soon as you release the uh, fire extinguisher, unless you have enough fire extinguishing power to uh,
+
+[45:31] like kill it completely and cool it down, which is why they have ansel systems. And in an ansel system, the group that they spray out of your ansel
+
+[45:38] system, especially saponifies the fat so that it doesn't reignite after it stops and it puts a suppression blanket on top of your fryer for like 20 seconds.
+
+[45:48] Please look up Pyrochem Kitchen night 2 fire test demonstration, and for an extremely boring,
+
+[45:55] uh, and they're boring, but you go through them. And Ansel R dash 102 suppression system versus dry chemical extinguisher on YouTube, especially that 2nd one.
+
+[46:04] Ansel R 102 suppression system versus dry chem extinguisher. And you can, it's really boring. Go to the interesting parts. You can see a firefighter spraying a dry chemical extinguisher on
+
+[46:14] on a thermal runaway, auto ignition, oil temperature fire from a fryer and the disasters results contained. Also, for a good laugh, look up William Shatner turkey fry because William Shatner has a save. He like, I love fried turkey. It's a taste. my taste. love it. I fried turkeys, but then he has like the safety thing where they show like an entire like garage melting down from someone putting
+
+[46:34] a poorly thawed and or too much oil in it. So check that stuff out. But anyway, yes, from a cooking standpoint, they're the best. Maybe, fair? Fair, fair. Okay. Oh, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Nathan from Richmond. Hey, how you doing? Good, man. I've been reading this book called Pulinary Reactions by Simon Clewensfield. Have you read it before? Uh, don't have, do you have that Piper? No. Nope, go ahead. Okay. So he's talking about turkey and he wants to cook his turkey at a relatively low temperature, um, 96
+
+[47:09] C for a long time in the oven. Right. But initially, he rinses the bird with hydrogen peroxide, and I'd never heard of anyone doing
+
+[47:19] this. I wondered. Why does he bleach the turkey? Because he says he's going to cook it at a low count, so he wants to completely remove the chance of
+
+[47:29] any, like, uh, bacterial growth. Especially botulism, since the hydrogen peroxide will break down into oxygen and help help keep botulism from growing. All right, Piper, like, all right, like, tweet me the tweet me the name of the book and the protocol. I'm going to look that sucker up and we'll talk about it. We still have time before Thanksgiving next week, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'll look that up. Hydrogen peroxide on the bird. You heard of that, Piper? Is it a is it a base? Hyperoxide? I'd say it's an oxidizer. It just kills things. It's a... It doesn't work based on acidity. It works based on like literally like ripping things apart. Haven't you ever poured hydrogen peroxide on your on a cut, Piper? They don't have that up in Vermont? Spit. Oh, nice, nice. Yeah, so I'll look that up and we'll try to see if we can figure out what's going on. I mean, I would I would prefer to use kind of a slightly nitrated salt and get that cured taste rather than use
+
+[48:24] a hydrated peroxide. But I don't know. go buy some hydrogen peroxide. We dump it on. I dont know if I have time because we're working on the Kickstarter, but I'll definitely at least research it. Piper will have me research it and we'll get back to you next week. Okay, okay, thanks, babe. All right, thank you. All right. Alex and Toronto writes in. Dear cooking issues team. Any recipes involving powder gelatin consistently ask their 1st be hydrated, then heated up 2 questions.
+
+[48:47] As long as there's enough water, won't the gelatin hydrate as it heats up anyway? And two, to what temperature must one heat the mixture in order to melt the said gelatin? Thanks and keep up the good work. Alex in Toronto. Actually, they don't tell you to add to the cold water to hydrate it. They're putting you into swell it so that it can disperse easily before you hydrate it. What they're worried about is that you add the gelatin powder to a hot liquid and it forms clumps that then take a lot longer to dissolve. The reason that doesn't happen in Jell-O powder is because there's so much
+
+[49:15] sugar separating the gelatin that it easily disperses in hot water,
+
+[49:21] okay? But the blooming, as it's called, is not a hydration. Any hydrocolloid that you use. Gelatin, even though it's a protein, is classified as a hydrocolloid, is usually a two-step process. Disperse, which is what you're doing with the blooming process, getting them swollen, but yet not glued together, and then hydration by heating. And gelatin hydrates, what, like 140, something like that? Fahrenheit? Somewhere like that? It's pretty low. Something like that. I just do it by I. I've never actually measured it. It probably depends on the gelat. I just do it by eye. Anyway, that's your answer. Uh, Patrick uh, Patrick writes in on ham. Dear cooking issues gang. I thinking of trying to cure ham in a location upstate New York, who's low and sometimes high temperatures, dipped below the freezing point for one quarter to
+
+[50:01] one 3rd of the year. This excludes a completely ambient curing and aging process, but I'm thinking of providing just enough heat to keep the temperature above freezing to do a
+
+[50:08] semi-ambient ham and then let it age for a long time, at least over 2 summers where the temperatures are still relatively mild. I don't have a desire to produce a facsimile of another place as hand, but instead want to do something that stands on its own. Do you think in general, this is an okay idea, or is it simply not a good idea to do
+
+[50:24] a semi-ambient ham, most likely unsmoked, outside of the traditional handbelt climate zone you described before? Completely ambient seems out of the question. Also, are there any detailed references in English, you would suggest for ham curing. I have a copy of Fidel Tolder's dry cured meat on the way, and Paul Bertoli's cooking by hand has a really good description of his own prosciutto method. Not looking to replicate other processes, but make a country hand that tastes like its own unique climate and geography. All the best, Patrick. Okay, listen, look this up. Dry curing Virginia style ham, Virginia cooperative extension by Norman Marriott. It's about Virginia Hamm, but it talks about the general procedure, how to pick out a hand properly for curing. Uh, although, you know, I don't necessarily agree with all of his trimming procedures, but it goes into salt
+
+[51:02] levels uh, and things like this. And he actually is an advocate of the bag style here, and it's probably good for curing small amounts of ham rather than the box cure where you're layering lots of
+
+[51:12] hams on top of each other. The bag cure, you add the specific amount of salt you need to the particular ham, wrap it, and then, you know, you overhaul it a couple of times, but it's, you know, easier to
+
+[51:21] get to get right. I think that you have a good idea. I don't think it's going to be a problem. As long as you keep it from freezing, if you have it in a semi-controlled
+
+[51:30] place. And you got to remember, a lot of the smoked hams that, you know, we have, you know, over time, come from more northerly places where freezing is a possibility. And so things were hung near fires to keep them from freezing, among other things. And so I think that should that should work great. And I'm looking, you know, I love to try an upstate New York style ham, semi-ambient. Semi-ambian ham. Yeah, but remember, your your aging temperatures. Like the reason that the country hams, my feeling is tastes the way they do. Southern country hams is the very high humidity, uh, high uh, temperatures that they experience in the summertime. And most of your aging. Most of the kind of funkiness from aging is going to happen during the summer times. Okay, last week we had in a caller asking about sodium ferrocyanide in salt. And Ellie Papineau wrote in with the actual sheet from Morton saying that there can indeed be
+
+[52:23] there. But it's not going to hurt you. First of all, sodium ferrac cyanide. It's not 2%. 20 milligrams per kilo of salt. It's the maximum allowable amount in, uh, in European standards anyway, which is like
+
+[52:37] .00 I have to do the math, but it's like .002% of sodium ferrocyanide. And sodium, uh, ferocyanide. Ferrocyanide is a is a bunch of cyanides glued around an iron atom, and the iron bond so well with the cyanide. It takes an acid stronger than stomach acid to release hydrogen cyanide gas. And so sodium ferrocyanide is relatively non toxic. You'd need to consume a whole bunch of it for it to hurt you, and there is not, and it's, you know, and there's not that much of it in there anyway, but
+
+[53:11] indeed it is there. So it's, remember, it's not 2%. It's 20 milligrams per kilo, which is very, very, very low. Um, Chris, uh, Chris Kohler writes in, uh, but it's pronounced, it's written like collar, like holler, like Chris
+
+[53:25] Kala, but it's, but it's color. Anyway. Two questions pertaining to bread and proofing dough. I've been making Levan style bread for about 6 months now and continually amazed with how long it lasts, last being quantified in days without drying out, molding or showing significant drops in quality.
+
+[53:39] My 1st assumption was that this bread is 77% hydrated and that's playing a role
+
+[53:44] lasting longer. I recently did a side-by-side, a 77% Levain bread, and
+
+[53:49] 70 separate hydrated, no need bread with commercial yeast and a traditional needed bread at 77% hydration with commercial yeast. All 3 breads were made in a standard country style loaf. The bread made with the Levan was a clear winner and lasted a week with a slow decline in quality. The needed bread lasted for 4 days, and a no knee bread was shot after two. Any thoughts on what's going on? And as a follow-up, I recently got a wood fired oven. I'm trying to convert a mini fridge into a proofing chamber. So I can hold pizza dough at 65 Fahrenheit for extended periods of time.
+
+[54:15] I can't imagine this being too difficult, but the scope of my scientific knowledge is in the world of medicine, not engineering. Thus, I'm often intimidated by the smallest electrical project, save for the help, Chris Kohler. Uh, so, uh, as far as uh, the 1st thing, yes, the sourdough technique, especially on whole grain breads, like Lemans, uh,
+
+[54:34] has a, um, a radical uh, effect in a positive way on the staling properties
+
+[54:40] of, um, of those. I point you to this article in food microbiology from 2007 called The Impact of Sourdough on the Texture of Bread. And there's a couple things going on. The acidity from a sourdough starting is directly causing some of the anti-staling things by how it affects the way enzymes are breaking down starches during the fermentation
+
+[55:05] process, and also probably due to their effect on the gluten in general, which they say can affect staling, although I'm not exactly sure
+
+[55:12] how I'd have to go reread the whole article. The other thing is, is that the lactic acid bacteria that are growing in a sourdough starter, make their own extracellar,
+
+[55:20] a cellular polysaccharides, which can lead towards, uh, can lead towards anti-staling effects, and also break down other things like proteins and other things that are more present in
+
+[55:29] uh, whole grain breads. And so a sourdough plus a whole grain bread is probably vastly superior from a staling technology, but just go read the impact of sourdough
+
+[55:38] on the texture of bread. I went to go look for my copy of the breadbuilders, which I think also, even though it might be out of date,
+
+[55:45] it's a very good book on that style of bread, but it's already been packed because I'm moving very soon. Anyway, I hope that helps. John writes in, and I guess this will have to be our last one, right? we're getting kicked off the air in a second. John writes in. Hey, Dave, Nastasia and the crew. I had a question about Ginko, specifically the evil female tree. For a while, my wife and I have had a ginkgo on our block and did collect the seeds for a brief moment to dry out the seeds for a Chinese dish we wanted to try.
+
+[56:10] But unfortunately, soon after the process of separating the softer flesh of the seed from the
+
+[56:14] inner seed, we found during the process that the fruits contain, I can't pronounce it. I can't pronounce anything. Yushu all, the stuff from, from, uh, from, uh, Poison Ivy. Uh, your show. I can't pronounce it. Anyway. contains that, which made for very unpleasant few days following. That tree is long gone, but I do see a lot of the trees dropping their stink seeds around New York City
+
+[56:36] now and was wondering if I was brave or crazy enough to brave the stench and collect them
+
+[56:42] again. Is there a way to neutralize the, you know, the dermatologically impaired product, which I will not try to pronounce again, before trying to get the seeds to avoid getting
+
+[56:50] poisoned oak side effects again. While the fresh seeds were good, I am not sure the risk or effort involved is better than the ones you pick up
+
+[56:56] into Chinatown. Aside from knowing their origin and processing and processing them yourself compared to the industrial variety. Thanks. Hope all is well, John. Okay, look. So, in fact, look, Yurushirol, however you pronounce it, is
+
+[57:08] actually that technical thing is only from that family, the Anacardis, Anna card,
+
+[57:14] DC, which is like mangoes and poison ivy and whatever. I looked this up. I didn't know that this was in Ginko. And again, my book on Poison Ivy problems, which I have a
+
+[57:25] couple actually, but they're already, because I'm fascinated with trees and stuff now, have been packed away already for the moose. I couldn't go look that up. But it turns out the ginkko has a related compound in it that can cause dermatitis, but doesn't necessarily cause it for everyone.
+
+[57:41] So in other words, some people who are, because I'm highly allergic to poison ivy, but I've smashed ginko seeds this year, in fact, and haven't gotten any
+
+[57:48] problems. Here's the other problem, something you mentioned. First of all, ginkos are unrelated to any other living extant tree. They are they are kind of they're alone in their group. They're usually classified with the conifers, but they're kind of like living fossil, and they're only really wild in China, but they were brought over and extensively cultivated in other places, including here in New York City.
+
+[58:07] It's an interesting tree. It's trees are either male or female, unlike many trees which have male and female parts on the same tree. There's only male trees and female trees and the female trees produce stinky, stinky, stinky,
+
+[58:20] stinky ginko nuts, which is why most people who cultivate them only cultivate the males.
+
+[58:24] But you can here in New York City, I can verify this from my own personal experience, find, in fact, there's one right outside of
+
+[58:29] MoFat offices. There's a female tree that was dropping its nuts. and you pick it up, and it's not really, it's a, you know, it's a CEA who, but you break it and you smell
+
+[58:39] homeless, and you can't wash the homeless smell after it because of the intense concentration of butyric acid on it.
+
+[58:44] Now, I did not know that it also contained an irritant, but in fact, it does. And so I will, did I write it down? There's a, I will try to look more into whether or not there's any way to actually stop yourself other than gloves.
+
+[58:58] I mean, gloves, right? Gloves. But I don't think of any, I haven't found anything that specifically inactivates it. I was reading an article on the preventing of occupationally related contact dermatitis, but and that came up when I searched for
+
+[59:13] ginko, but I wasn't able to find the specific ginko reference that kind of kind of had to work around it. But man, if you can brave that stench, 1st of all, the fact that you put that stuff on your hands with the smell, because it's so hard to wash out of your hands, I was sitting there
+
+[59:26] watching for like so long, do you get to stink out? There are things called barrier creams that are given to forest rangers and people who trek out that are supposed to stop poison ivy from penetrating the
+
+[59:37] skin, and maybe that would work here. But, man, I mean, I would collect and then, you know, maybe they use some sort of fermentation to get the pulp off instead of pulping it by hand. I will look it up. I will look it up and tell you, John, because I'm kind of curious about it. Oh, it's too late in the season for us to collect it. Can you imagine if I brought all this ginko nuts back to the lab and it was stinking up that lab with butyric acid, like smelling like vomit, vomit, vomit,
+
+[1:00:01] vomit? can't imagine what that would be like. I think I think there's other stinky stuff in there because it smells worse than just vomit. It's like vomit plus not washed. It's like unwashed vomit. like, it's like, it's like you didn't wash for a week. You spent your 1st 20 bucks on the cheapest liquor you could get, drank
+
+[1:00:16] it, and then puked it on yourself, and then just fell asleep dozing in the hot sun. That's what it smells like to me. Anyway, we'll look it up and we'll get back to you. cooking issues.
+
+[1:00:32] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley
+
+[0:03] winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live, Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Join as usual in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez, how you doing? Good. That pizza is called the Slammer. Really? The Hammer and the Slammer. So what's on this pizza from a bird? By the way, today we have to go shoot at food and wine. Maybe we'll talk about it later. And so we have to take our launch during our commercial breaks today. Boo-hoo. So what's on this pizza this slammer? It's collard greens and prosciutto, I think. Yeah? I don't know. I don't know. Joe, what do we got on this pizza here? don't think he knows. I don't know. I'm not a restaurant. I'm not actually working in the restaurant. I just bring the pizza. Yeah, but you know, I don't know. It's my fault. I should read it more closely. All I saw was greens on top. See, Roberta, they had these pizzas with greens on them, and Stas and I love the pizzas with greens on them. And then whenever we want one, they're like, nah, not today. No greens today. I love greens on pizza, by the way. I like them when they're when they're cooked down, as these appear to be, and I like them when they're not cooked down. Yeah, I like them. both ways. Yeah. It's a good product. greens on a pizza. Didn't mean to put you on the spot there. Joe, how you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks. A little red in the face now. As you said, you don't work in the restaurant. It's not your job, you know? I just thought maybe you had had it and you would, you know, taking note of... I'm going to start up my own pizza blog for all the cooking issues, listeners, about all the Roberta's pizzas.
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+[1:59] Maybe someday. Oh, I just stuck the headphone cord and the pizza is such a party foul. So while we're on the topic here, Nastasia, you said to bring it up. Oh, okay, all right, we can do it. Yeah, so Nastasia and I have a an ongoing kind of feud battle. accurate. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, one of many. one of many. one we're willing to share. And so, you know, some of you may know, I have 2 kids and a wife, right? And so, you know, I've kind of been through this whole scenario in New York, by the way. And not so easy being a mom in New York, if you want to like go outside, you know,
+
+[2:39] it's, you can't like lock yourself away in your, uh, in your tiny apartment all day, go freaking bananas. And so I am not in the least bothered by any sort of public display of feeding your babies if you get my drift.
+
+[2:52] Breastfeeding. Yes, breastfeeding the babies. And Stas here is bothered by you. want to talk about that? Well, it's just that Roberta's especially is a breeding ground for these women who take their entire breast out and don't cover it up. Just don't look at it. Just don't look. It's so easy. It's not the look at people. like, why don't you just cover it with like a nice, they make stuff like that. You could get a nice scarf. Like, you know, like, why do you need to show it? I just don't think that there's not, it's not about you. You see, you're looking at it like it's about you. No. If you're eating in a restaurant and a woman has her breasts out. It's it's always at Roberta's. It's, you have pizza in front of you, you have cheeses. you have, you know, what the heck does the pizza and the cheese have to do with it. Oh my goodness. And then there's the lady next to you. with her breast out. Joe, you want to weigh in on his face? Joe, what do you think? Um, I see it from I see it from both ways. My thought is that, yeah, you can just avert your eyes, but as soon as you started going about the
+
+[3:57] cheese. I don't know. That was a little much for me. Well, that's because she's got a demented mind. Like she makes connections that don't exist. I want writers or callers or listeners or whatever to weigh in on it. Hey, you know what I want? I want mothers to be able to go out and eat whenever they go. I think they should do it when you know, obviously they have to do it when they're baby's hungry, but like cover it up in a public place. That is painful if you do not feed... I'm not telling them not to. cover it up. Cover it up. All right, whatever. I, you know, I just, I just don't, I don't see why it's. Would you like to, let's say that a man had to do it with a different appendage? That is crazy. That is too crazy. crazy, crazy, crazy statement. Whoa. I cannot believe that you have said this on the air. Now, I want you people out there. This is a little taste of what it's like. A little bit of a taste. Somebody had to say it. Nobody had to say that. Nobody had to say that. Call in. Call in your responses to Nastasia or any other questions, cooking or otherwise too. 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Longtime listener and supporter of Mofad, by the way. Lucas wrote in, uh, and says that, um, a longtime listener of the show. You know, he was a, he's now a finance guy, but he used to be involved in super low temperature physics, which is kind of interesting.
+
+[5:18] I think he was saying he was dealing with, what do they call it? Like, um, Einstein, kind, what is it? Uh, kind of condensate. Super, super hyper, low temperature physics. Anyways, so he has a deal for us. He says he shot a doe yesterday, you know, the doe a deer, female deer. I shot a doe yesterday. He was hunting with a friend. He has half the meat, and you'll be happy to donate some of this in the name of the progress of science in terms of us
+
+[5:43] cooking. Uh, uh, game meets low temperature. And I hope it's, you know, some point I hope to go hunting too. But yes, please, please send us some. He says, unfortunately, the condition to the deal with his friend were that all the awful from the 1st deer goes to his dogs, which is so weird. Your dog doesn't give a crap. Oh, my dog really only likes the deer that I hunt. My dog will eat any damn thing. You know what he likes the best now? Dehydrates. What? Oh shit. Again, again, with the nudging. Dehydrated lamb lung is seems his current favorite thing. can't get enough dehydrated and bread. Anyway, unfortunately, the conditions of the deal are all the awful from the 1st year goes to his dogs, but I have all the other cuts. Now, because I'm stupid, I butchered this myself, and since this is my 1st deer, it looks a little better than the 1st sushi I made, but, you know, it's kind of beat up. But certainly edible. Let me know if you guys are interested. Regards Lucas. Yes, we're interested. Would you like that? You like deer, right? don't think I've ever had it. Come on, really? We'll cook the hell out of that Lucas. Santa stuff. Well, is it frozen? Yeah. Like, we're pretty much like in a K-hole right now. Like, uh, at home, you know, well, we'll get into this later, but like, you know, I haven't been able to test any recipes. Um, um, you know, uh, Chris Kohler sent us
+
+[6:57] the, uh, the tofu book by uh, by Nguyen. Thanks so much. super excited. I was reading through it and then I realized, hey, you know what? I want to make tofu right now, but guess what? I have no kitchen. I literally, I'm moving. Yeah, yeah, I mean, not permanently, but like, it's because my wife heard my rant about friars last week. No, I'm kidding. She doesn't listen to the show. Uh, but the uh, more on that later. But the, no, what happened was, uh, we're moving across the street and the people who are buying my new apartment, they don't want my, you know, commercial fryer, my
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+[7:27] commercial, my commercial range and all that stuff. So I had to rip it out of the wall. Good people. Well, I don't want to call out who it is. You know, yeah, they are relatives of mine. That's not the point. They don't want the, they don't want it. And so I had to rip it out with my bare hands. So now I'm back down to dorm room skills. I got a toaster oven, but I also have a searsaw. Oh yeah. So can I see her only something? Can I see her most things? What can I see her? Everything. No, Stas, you gotta get into them. I know. You got to get to the like, you know what? Christmas beer. She's already in the freaky Christmas spirit. not even Thanksgiving experience. And she's cracking out the Michael Bublé. Like, it's like the end of the world is coming with the Bublé. Bubles. Now, yeah, okay, whatever. I encourage you because whatever, but, like, I'm saying, like, you know, like, we're doing something exciting and you can't be like, whatever. whatever, whatever, whatever. Whatever. Again, now people, now you know. Now you know. Now, now you know. Okay. John Stewart wrote in. Uh, 2 cooking issues uh, about a serious Eats uh, and I couldn't figure out when the Sirius Eats uh, post was, but it was a, it was a Kenji Alt uh, post. Uh, and he says, um, question one. what it is, is this, I forget what they called it. They called it something. What do they call it? like a Turk nut, what do they call it? Like a Turk, Turk chedda or something like that. Yeah. It's a it's a rolled Turk. It's basically a rolled turkey. Turkey breast rolled with a skin. I can't, I didn't see the original recipe to see whether he had meat gluted or not, but, you know, I've been cooking rolled up poultry for since, you know, since I was a
+
+[9:05] wee baby. Actually, you know what? Like, even before I had meat glue, Jacques Pepin back in the day used to do ballotines of chicken that were stuffed with kind of like a dried fruit
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+[9:15] stuffing. And I used to make those things constantly, like in my 20s. Like, that was my go-to. I used to love making that. This is slightly different. I think this meat glued. But Nils, you know, Nils Norin, formerly the FCI, good, you know, good friend of mine. He, back when he was at Akavit, would turn any meat into a tube. Any meat. You hand him a meat, he turned it into a tube. He would take, you know, lobsters, turn them into tubes, salmon, tubes, chicken, tube, tube,
+
+[9:44] beef, tube. And so like, and the reason is that it nils like the tube so much is that it cooks very evenly across it.
+
+[9:52] And so, you know, Nils had a very good meat gluing and rolling
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+[9:56] technique, and it was actually his formation of tubes that caused him to be kind of like
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+[10:01] one of the top two. They went back and forth, Wiley and nils on who was using the most meat glue in New York City way back in the day. Anyhoo. So, you know, after I started cooking with nose a lot, I, too, I, too, took up the, the, the tubes of meat uh, as a, as a thing. And so we used to turn, you know, just tubes constantly. Anyhoo. So, that's what we're talking about. So Kenji does a spiced on the inside, rolled up turkey breast with the skin around it that you low temp
+
+[10:28] cook, and then deep fry, which is kind of a classical low temp classic mold. It's the low temp way to cook a bird like that in a simple fashion as opposed to the skeletonized turkey nonsense that we do every once in a while. I can't do that this year. I don't have a kitchen. Crazy sucks. We can't do that at the lab. We're not really set up for that at the lab. No. No. So I was like, please don't do it at the lab. The last time, I think I told I told this story of it, the last time I did a major poultry project at the lab. Actually, we did one yesterday. But the time before that, I blew up a pressure cooker and sprayed... Not the way you think. No, no, no. Well, I exploded the safety valve and it's it was old faithful of chicken grease everywhere. I can picture that as I can smell it and picture it right now. Anyway, so the questions. The recipe calls, this is Kenji's recipe calls for 60 degrees Celsius, for 4 to 5 hours, and then a deep fry. For most tender cuts like chicken breasts and tenderloins. I think you, you meaning me, recommend keeping the time shorter to prevent mushing its thoughts on
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+[11:28] this, and what would you use for the time temperature on a turkey breast? I'll just go through all the questions 1st and I'll answer them, you know, in whatever order my tangents allowed me to. Question two. The recipe calls for slashing the inside of the meat, rubbing with spices, then rolling it and binding it with twine. Would this be a good application for meat glue transplutaminates to bind it together better? If so, how would you otherwise change the technique? Still rub it, still rubbing his vices? Then does with TG enroll, or with the spices interfere, and or just be weird embedded in the meat. And question three, if using transportaminates, which one would you use? I see RM, GS, TI, and YG. 0 my. I like that. Uh, a good rhyme there, uh, available. Uh, from John Stewart. Okay, so, uh, or is he, didn't he call himself the other John Stewart once? the other Johns. Well, you know, since I don't know, again, like I said, since I don't know, the John Stewart that you're referencing is whatever, whatever. you are John Stewart John. Anyway, yeah, I would use Meek Glue on this. I mean, obviously you don't have to use meat glue. Um, but then if you don't use Miklu, you don't have to tie it, right? I mean, there you go. And then you can just roll it in, make sure you get a, you know, a polyethylene only plastic wrap, if you're going to use, if you're going to make the rolls with plastic wrap, and they're still on the cooking issues blog
+
+[12:39] in the low temperature section, there's a whole pictorial blah, blah, who's it on how to roll? I think I do a chicken there and also a salmon. Show how to roll it. Make sure that you use a non-PVC one and smell the, smell your plastic wrap to make sure it doesn't smell all stanky and nasty, but the technique is all there
+
+[12:57] and it's, you know, fairly simple to do. I would put the meat glue. I don't know if it really matters as long as you're not coating it with so much spices that the meat can't touch meat. I don't think it's going to really matter. You can use RM. RM is what I usually use. It's a powder and you sprinkle it on, because, I don't know, nils would always say he hated the ones that were made into paste because he didn't want to add a lot of water to the inside.
+
+[13:21] But if you have a lot of spices, you can use the GS, which is a slurry and you paint it on, and you could paint it on, but don't paint too
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+[13:29] much, I mean, that's probably the one I add a lot of moisture, and then sprinkle the spices into the slurry, and then roll it up, and you'll
+
+[13:34] be good to go. Uh, and with something like this, you could actually, uh, you wouldn't even actually have to wait for it to set. Normally you would wait for something to set, but as long as you're not cooking too high, 4 hours or so or overnight. As long as you're cooking down here in the 60 degree Celsius range, you could very easily just heat set it, put it in the bath, and as it cooks through, it will set. It won't be as strong as it would be if you let it set in the fridge overnight, but it'll be strong enough for the application that you have
+
+[14:01] here, and then you won't have any twine marks around it, right? So that takes care of questions 2 and three, right? Now ask the question one. All right, look, I'm sure Kenji has access to all the same programs and databases
+
+[14:13] that, you know, that I have. Uh, and so his 4 to 5 cooking uh, 4 to 5 hour cooking time at 60 degrees is probably based on what looked to
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+[14:24] be uh, roughly 4 inch uh, diameter cylinder, right? And so, the issue is, is that he's trying to get up to the actual temperature is 60 in the center of a 4 inch diameter
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+[14:38] tube, and that does take 4 to 5 hours. However, right? If you look at his recipe, so I'll say, I'll give you the recipe here for those of you that are interested, you can just look it up. I mean, you know, series heats. right there. But preheat sous vide water bath to 140 Fahrenheit, that's 60 for you folks who cook in Celsius
+
+[14:54] land. Add a turkey and cook for 4 to 5 hours, remove and run under a cool running water, transfer to an ice bath to chill for 5 minutes. That's, again, old standard technique we used to do to not overcook the meat. Remove from a bag and add any congealed juices to the gravy, rigs carefully and
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+[15:09] thoroughly pat dry with paper towels, trim ends for a more cylindrical shape, if desired, although I would trim after you fry after you
+
+[15:15] fry it, unless there's a lot of skin on the outside. Heat oil to 400 degrees. It's hot. In a large walker, Dutch oven did not feel more than one third of the way in order to allow for bubbling a displacement. He's overheating the oil here because he's going to get large temperature drops, he puts it in. Um, carefully slide the turkey into the oil using spatula and tongs. It will not be fully submerged, cover and cook, shaking the pan occasionally until the sputtering dies a bit. I would just ladle over the top or roll it in the thing instead of having to, like, I mean, I don't know, whatever, but this is just, these are just semantics, you know, choice of cook. Anyway, about 2 minutes, adjust a flame, but consistent 350, and then using a large metal ladle, spoon the hot oil. There you go, over the exposed portions of the rose continuously until the bottom half is cooked in crisp, about 5 minutes, carefully flip and cook on the 2nd side basting the whole time. So I guess he's covering it to get the temperature of the oil up faster by not having as much steam escape. That must be what he's doing here. But you're looking at a total cook time of 7 minutes at 350 degrees.
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+[16:09] And that is going to push the internal temperature of that. It's going to make a nice crispy skin, but it's going to push the interior temperature of the bird up considerably, which is why he's only cooking to 140
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+[16:22] degrees. Now, 140 degrees is too dang. I looked at the pictures. It cooked properly, but 140 degrees, 60 degrees Celsius. It's 2 dang low for 99% of the people who are going to eat turkey breast. It's still gonna have some of that weird translucency kind of hue to it and you wouldn't want to eat that, would you? No much. No. Like the minimum you want to cook a turkey breast too in the real world and real life is about 63 degrees or even some people prefer 64. Dark meats, you're looking at like 65s. It's the lowest, really, 66. Some people prefer. If you do low temperature cooking and you're careful and you've brined it, you can cook the white meat up that high, but, you know, whatever. These are the general numbers of what you want to cook turkey too. Now, in my opinion, uh, turkey meat that is cooked for longer than about 2 hours, low temperature, uh, it's not that it goes
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+[17:14] bad, it's that it gets what I, the texture is not as good if you taste it side by side with meat that was cooked to the same temperature
+
+[17:21] at a shorter period of time. When you bite into it, it has a little bit of stringiness, mushiness, it releases its water in a way
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+[17:28] that I don't find as pleasant as I find ones that haven't been cooked for as long. Now, some people like that texture because we've done a bunch of side by side taste tests back when I was, you know, teaching low temperature cooking back at the FCI. But it's just not. It's just not what I like. What I would do. And if you were to get one of these things like sous vide dash or, you know,
+
+[17:49] polycience, sous vide dashboard, whatever it's called now, one of these programs that allows you to check it. If you were to just increase the temperature of the cooking water by a mere 3 degrees, you would chop the time down to around under 3 hours.
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+[18:03] If you were to then reduce the cylinder size from 4 inches to 3 inches,
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+[18:06] you chop it down to like 2 and 2 in a fraction. hours to get it cooked up to this temperature in the center, right? And that, it seems to me, is a good way to do it. What I would do is do that and then ramp down the cooking temperature aggressively, uh, or put it in nice water a little bit longer so that you're not going to get an overcook when you put it into the
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+[18:27] fryer because it's going to be easier to drop that temperature a couple of degrees uh, than it is to raise it without overcooking. Does that make sense to us? Because anyway, so that's what I would do. I would cook it to a higher temperature and then drop it harder. And then fry it without overcooking it. And I think that's going to be better. especially you want to make it for a quick crust development. So I wouldn't actually cool it in the bag or in the, um, I mean, I wouldn't cool it in ice water in the bag. What I would do is cool it down to, I would drop the temperature aggressively to like 50 or 52, pull it out hot and let the steam flash off of the, uh, the,
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+[19:02] the moisture flash off of the, uh, the bird, maybe even hit it with a, with a fan or a hair dryer to put a pellicle on the outside. Do not use a used hair dryer on food, by the way, because you'll notice that it throws little pieces of burnt hair. What happens when people are blow drying their hair, is hair particles get sucked into the
+
+[19:21] intake, and then some of them make it in, and then they get kind of slightly incinerated, and then when
+
+[19:26] you when you fire it again, occasionally it will fire out these little bits of half burnt hair particle crap.
+
+[19:31] That's how women get split in. What? over blue drying the hair. I hate blow dryers. In terms of, like, they should just call them like, you know, kind of food dryers. They're awesome at that. like French fries and everything, but like people try to put a blow dryer on my head. I'm like, what the hell are you doing? My hair will dry. My hair will dry. Like, I'm not going to get a cold going outside. Like, do not blow dry my hair. Do you use blow dryer? Nope. That's one of the reasons I like you stuff. No offense to all you blow dry people out there. They smell bad. They smell like burned harem. I guess for that reason. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you're with me, right? Blow dryer, no good, right? No way. No, good good on food, though. They're good for that. Good to know. But don't use a used one. Anyway, so that's what I had something else to add to this, but I forget what it is. Who knows? I'll think of it at some point. You want to go to a break? All right, we'll go to a commercial break, come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[20:53] This is Chris Howell from Kane Vineyard and Winering, calling in from Spring Mountain, above the Napa Valley. Thank you for listening to this show. In our industrial world of highly processed food and wine, we support the values of
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+[21:08] Heritage Radio network. All of us that came encourage you to seek out individuality and beauty in everything you eat and drink.
+
+[21:16] To learn more about us go to cane 5.com.
+
+[21:45] And we're back. Call any questions 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. You want to know I'm one of the reasons why I'm a bad person? Everyone else loves it. I hate Napa. I hate it Napa Napa Valley. Oh, is it away? Yeah. Yeah, I hate it. I mean look, I like the people. I like the wineries. I like wine, but just that beating freaking sun. You know what I mean? What do you hate about it? You just don't like? I like it. Styles went to school at Stanford, so, you know, so she's probably exposed to it more than I am. Yeah, I don't like their, they're really like clean, clean vineyards, you know, like very lines. I don't know how to explain. I like the wine, though. like the wine. I don't know. It's also like so expensive over there, right? What the hell are we talking? We live in New York. Anyway, now I'm going to get someone to be like, you hate Napa. hate you. You know, what are you gonna do? I gotta be honest sometimes. You know what I'm saying? Got to be honest sometimes. At Clefts Road in. On the Twitter said, cooking issues, any advice or techniques for roasting raw peanuts to then be milled into peanut butter and what temperatures? Well, okay. So the thing about peanuts. The thing about peanuts. This is another one of those, one of those, uh, Deez nuts questions. I love, like, anytime, like, I wish every wheat word has some sort of like nut related question, right? nets, these nets. Okay. And you know what? Like, that's probably the best, one of the best songs. That's not, there's so many good songs on that album, but Stas, you're not a big fan of that whole genre. Even though you're from that area. Is that why you don't like it? No, I just don't like it. Just don't like it. Not my kind of music. None of those? No Dre, no Snoop, no, nothing. But you're also not an East Coast rap person either. don't like rap. Wow. Wow. I don't how the heck we hang out. Okay. So, the issue with making peanut butter is you're going to want a fairly high oil nut, right? So that leaves out the absolute royalty of peanuts. God's peanut, which is the Virginia peanut, which is a variety. And I've said this before on the show. If you have not gone out and purchased high quality, roasted, salted, please get the salted. Please, for God's sakes, get salted, salted. Don't get any flavors on it though. These guys who make these Virginia peanuts, a lot of them, they make all these ones with flavors because they think that you need to flavor it, but Virginia peanut. The texture of a Virginia peanut in the size and the way it explodes in your mouth when you bite it does not require any sort of crazy flavoring. It requires simply salt and your mouth to eat
+
+[24:22] and a fist to shovel them into your face because that's what you're
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+[24:26] going to want to do with them. But Virginia peanut, uh, even though it is the best possible peanut that I've ever had. Like by far, like so far and away above any other, uh, variety, it's a variety, they can be grown elsewhere other than uh, Virginia, but they're just called Virginia Peanuts and, you know, that's where I get where I get most of them. I don't know where most of them are grown, but just, I mean, blows the rest, they cost more, and they're worth it. here's what's going to happen. You're gonna go on the, I hope, you're gonna go on the internet. I have, but like, but some people they don't know. They don't know. Go on the internets. You're going to look at it, and you're going to say, why the hell does this peanut cost so much, and then you're going to get it, and you're going to
+
+[25:01] say this. Oh, that's gonna be it, right? That's what I did. Oh, okay. So anyway, so don't get those for peanut butter because that's a waste anyway of the amazing texture. And the Virginia peanut, I think, doesn't have as kind of a high oil content. If you're going to want something higher, like a Spanish peanut or something like that in oil. I would recommend roasting. If you're going to make peanut butter, you can put the salt in later, so it's not a problem. Um, but everyone seems to say to roast it at 350 Fahrenheit, which, oh, man, I should have converted that to Celsius because
+
+[25:32] at Clefts is in Japan, I think. Anyway. Um, for like 15 or 20 minutes, um, as opposed to in the shell, the, you know, the peanut board and all that recommends going for 30
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+[25:42] to 35 minutes at that same temperature, 350. However, they don't tell you the real secret of roasting a peanut
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+[25:49] in shell. This doesn't apply at class for peanut butter. Oh, and by the way, if you have a peanut that doesn't have as much oil. It's a simple matter when you're grinding nut butters to add a little bit of oil to it. And we used to do it all the time when we were doing it. For instance, we would get California almonds, no fence because I've had some good ones. Wyath, you know, from labor, his his grandpa's an almond farmer and he got some really good nuts, good nuts. But the thing is, that majority of the California almonds that you get are some variety that has a very low oil content because I guess
+
+[26:20] I think that's what Americans want. Like as opposed to Marconas, where you can see the freaking, like, oil on them. So delicious. But they, so those nuts, the, you know, the average, those nuts, the, uh, the average California almond
+
+[26:33] there, uh, is almost worthless to make uh, butter's out of because it has so low oil unless you add back a
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+[26:39] lot. Even pecans, which are fairly high oil, we would have to add some oil. Remember that? when we were making all that stuff, we'd have to add some back to it. We would save a little bit of the last batch and make it kind of like trying to get a perpetual motion nut machine out of it. And we used to pre-grind it and then put it in a Santa to get a really, which is, you know, a Melangere kind of
+
+[26:56] take, oh, you know, Italy, Italy, you know, like a doll, Italy thing. Anyway, from India. And we used to get really good, really, really good textured nut
+
+[27:06] butters, and we would spin them in the centrifuge and get even better, awesome textured nut butters. We used to roast them all beforehand. But anyway, so but none of that is going to help you if you want to put, like, do you like eating peanuts in the shell? I don't like nuts so much. don't like peanuts. Freaking God. What about you guys in the engineering booth over there? Are you a fan of the shell, the in shell peanut? Oh definitely. Yeah, baseball style, you know, out there shelling in the freaking nutshells are everywhere. I like anything where you're supposed to make a mess and there's chaff everywhere, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't like when people eat the peanuts on the subway like that, though. No, no, they should be shot in the face. Yeah, right. I don't mean a lot of violent things. I shouldn't say that. That's a turn of phrase I use not on the air typically. But what I mean is, is they're bad people. No, not bad. They're rude. not thoughtful people. I take that back. But I said, that's not right. Anyway, but my point is, is that you should not. don't like people eating any freaking thing on the subway at all. No. I don't want to see people. I mean, look, if you need to take a sip of water, no problem, but I don't want, like, I don't know, I don't want. I got a baby that needs to breastfeed. You know what, Stas? You're such a free. See what I'm saying, people? Anyways, my point is I don't like, I don't like to, I don't like, you know what I really hate? I hate the, I hate like the, like the takeout food container open in the subway and the entire subway smells like takeout. the egg rolls next to me yesterday. So gross. Yeah, it's always like the high like vinegar sauces and stuff. You can smell the fried goods. You can smell all over the thing or like subway sandwiches. I see that a lot. They're freaking messy. They're messy people anyways. Just don't do it, right, Joe? Just don't do it. No way. How do we even go? Oh, wait, wait, 5 minutes. Yeah, wait. when you're when you're outside or sitting at a picnic bench outside? Like, like, the, the, the peanuts in the shell? Anyway, the worst, though, is when someone hands you one and they're not salted. Don't you hate that? I hate that. One salt on those suckers. Yeah, definitely. So here's how you do it. If you want to salt the nuts before you roast them. The simple kind of boneheaded way without technology is to just soak it in a salt brine for a long time,
+
+[29:15] then, you know, rinse them off a little bit and roast them, right? That'll work. Oh, sorry. Dehydrate first, below roasting temperature because if you don't get the moisture back out before you roast it, you're not going to be able to get all the moisture out before it gets too brown,
+
+[29:27] right? So you need to take them back down to a normal kind of ambient moisture content at a
+
+[29:31] low non-roasting temperature. Either in a dehydrator or on a super low oven with the lid, lid, with the door open with a, with a towel, you know how you do if you don't have a dehydrator, and let them really dry out before you roast it proper at like
+
+[29:45] 350. But the baller, really bitty, biddily, biddily baller way to do it, is to throw the peanuts and a brine and whatever other flavors you want into your vacuum machine and do rapid infusion into the
+
+[29:57] peanuts and you can infuse them almost instantly. So you don't have to wait for the stuff to soak through like you would with a normal
+
+[30:03] bride that we have to wait hours for the for the brine to make it through. So then you could do, you could make your brine, uh, suck a huge vacuum, uh, let the air back in,
+
+[30:11] boosh, the brine will be pushed into the peanut, dehydrate, uh, you know, in a low
+
+[30:15] oven until you break one open field, make sure it's dehydrated, and then roast it off, and you're good. Oh, we have a collar, collar, you're on the air. Mr. Dave Arnold. Howdy. Jeremy Bullfrog, how are you, sir? Hey. Doing well. How's how's it down in Miami land? Uh, it's a bombing 81 degrees? Nice, nice. What's up? Uh, just called the chat. When can I get my hands on one of those sears all, sir? Well, so we are still making them by hand in the basement of the lab at 54
+
+[30:51] Eldridge. So right now. teeny little elves with glasses and tweezers are assembling them as we speak. I like to think of Piper as an elf with glasses and tweezers. But yeah, so literally that's what we're that's what we're doing. So right now we're, we, right now we only have a couple, we only have a couple that we're using for shooting because we're doing the, we're finishing the Kickstarter shoot on
+
+[31:14] Thursday, and it's going to go up on, uh, on Black Friday, Black Friday. But Miss your Bullfrog, you are definitely on the list. You are on... So what you're saying is I have to send Santa Claus a letter and proclaim my love for all things that heat stuff up very
+
+[31:31] hot. Yes, yes, yes, that's true. No, and also like, well, here's a good question. So, technically, in a food truck, you're allowed to have the handheld propane tanks technically. Are you asking me or are you telling me? Because I sure as hell don't know. I was asking. Yeah, I was asking. you know, I don't know. But the, yeah, so when are we looking at delivery on this thing? April. We're going to try to get April? Yeah, so we're the Kickstarter will be over right around the Christmas time and then we're looking for hopefully and really that soon, huh? Wow, we're going to be busy. But the ones that we make now, you know, the proto ones are literally, they're all welded by hand in the
+
+[32:10] basement, and so they're, what's the, what's the PC term now budget, their budget. Um, not the materials, just, you know, the workmanship. Uh, and then, but we're going to get them actually made, you know, for real in, um, we don't know where. We have a couple factories we're looking at, but we're gonna get them made for beers. So what you're saying is for real, for meal, they're being made in China in some basement by teeny little Chinese elk.
+
+[32:34] Uh, yeah, could possibly be made uh, in India by small Indian elves as well. It's not sure because both China, I mean, India for many years was kind of the stainless, the issue is, is that, you know,
+
+[32:47] I, we can get fairly competitive price on like the high, the high tech stuff, like the, like the insulation and the, and the, um, and the mesh that we use, but, um, stainless fabrication is just, you're completely priced out of existence in, uh, in the
+
+[33:04] US for this kind of a thing. And so we're, you know, that's the kind of stuff that traditionally you would get a
+
+[33:10] lot, and like a lot of barware is made in India, but over the past decade or so, China has really kind of rocketed forward to
+
+[33:18] challenge, and I think they've superseded India in terms of their stainless manufacturing, at least in terms of what's imported into the
+
+[33:23] US and the cookware department. So it's, it's a question of which, which one, um, you're gonna go to, but it's just phenomenally, you know, the tooling
+
+[33:32] costs and everything are phenomenally expensive. And since we don't know that we can make enough of them to afford the initial kill on the initial cost on the tooling for
+
+[33:42] a US operation on that, we just don't know if we can do it. We looking to hopefully assemble here, though. It's just going to go bonkers. I mean, you're going to put that thing up and it's just going to exceed anything that I think you ever could have imagined, you know? Well, from your lipstick, God's ears, brother, from your lips to God's ears. But don't worry, if you want look, look, you know, Jeremiah, old friend
+
+[34:01] of uh, like old friend of the blog, back in the blog days, uh, you know, at the French culinary institute. So, you know, I believe I I believe I sculled with with you guys up in the lab at one point. You did. And also, if you remember, you were the one that made us test out whether or not agave syrup was
+
+[34:19] indeed did indeed make a difference in margaritas. Yeah, I certainly just wanted to drink margaritas that day. I was a little hung over and I was like, let me just throw this out there. Well, I'll be drinking margaritas. It's going to just, you know, it's going to turn this class up a notch. Yeah, it's true. Did I ever tell you that I found out that I figured out the science behind why they're so different? Um, I believe we were having cocktails uh, during ICC, and um,
+
+[34:46] you, you did, um, you did lay that theory on, and uh, I'm
+
+[34:51] going to touch it out of my own. I'm a big margarita fan. Yeah, well, I'll do I'll do my own research and we'll compare notes. All right. I'll tell you what I think, just for the benefit of the folks out there. The agave is extremely high in fructose. And fructose is interesting as opposed to sucrose in that its sweetness hits you right
+
+[35:10] away and then leaves very quickly. Uh, so, um, what if you use agave, uh, you're using something that's very high in fructose. So when you drink the margarita, you get a real hit of sweet right away, but it doesn't linger, whereas the lime lingers. So you're not left with a cloying sweetness. You left with this kind of lingering lime flavor in the margarita. There's still some backbone of sucrose there from the quantro, but like the initial kapau hit of the sugar that you've added is in a fructose form, which seems what we thought seemed to work well in the margaritas back in the day. my theory. welcome to it. All right. All right. Well, you're on the list. We'll be telling you when you get an order in. Can you just put an order in for a margarita pizza and after the show, just eat that for me. So I feel like I'm part of the crew. Well, I'll tell you what, we're going to do a food and wine shoot, but next week, I will, I will, you will be an official in absentia crew member here and we will order a margarita
+
+[36:10] pizza. I pound it for you. All right, brother. Hammer. Bye. Take care, guys. Thank you. All right, cool. Talk to you soon. All right, now, what are we talking about? I don't know, who the hell knows what I'm talking about? Alex wrote in. last week about Friars, and I gave a long spiel about how, you know, they might void the
+
+[36:30] the insurance in your house and that they they could have safety issues and go, and apparently, uh, I mean,
+
+[36:37] I frankly, I don't frighten myself. You convinced yourself, yeah. Yeah, I'd already purchased my new deep fryer for my, you know, my house, but look, it's kind of like who I am. It's like, you know, like that's, you know, whatever. Anyway, so here's what he wrote back. Hello, Dave. So last week you answered my email about fryers and my wife skipped past your comment that a fryer is a good idea for cooking. Shouldn't skip that part. You know what I mean? And leaped on the burning down the house prospects. Valid point. Your wife has valid point. So a large deep fryer in the home no longer appears to be a viable option. As I've never seen a countertop deep fryer with recovery times useful for frying, it looks like I'm back to
+
+[37:11] stock pots in Dutch ovens. While the thermal mass of cast iron is appealing. I've seen some sources online that iron will react with the oil, degrading the quality or imparting off flavors. Is there any truth to this? Yes. Also, what is the chemistry beyond oxidation going on in the fry oil that makes it
+
+[37:25] break down and turn? Alex. Okay, look. Before I, before I get into it, let me, uh, let me just say, uh, I looked
+
+[37:36] around and there is, I forget whether or not you said you lived in an apartment or you live in a house, right?
+
+[37:41] Because one of the things I've always maintained is that if you live in a house with an outdoor space,
+
+[37:45] like that's where you should put your fryer, right? And there's a company from Homer, Louisiana, these guys are crazy. They're crazy. They're called RNV, RNV, like RV, like recreational vehicle, but not recreational vehicle, like R and
+
+[37:59] Ampersand, V, works in Homer, Louisiana. Their website is Cajunfryer.com. So you already know it's going to be good. The website, website, like Cajun Fryer. How could that be bad? And, uh, these guys sell, it's intended for home, right? Which means it's not going to avoid your homeowner's warranty because it's intended for home, a real honest to God, uh, outdoor, so it's got a cover on it, a propane fired tube,
+
+[38:27] uh, a deep fryer with a cold zone. It's freaking nuts. It' awesome. It's not even that expensive compared to other commercial stuff and it's meant for home. So you're good to go. You just have to fire it up, not inside. It's not meant to go inside. These guys also have some insane griddles. They also make a crazy pressure smoker that looks like a giant autoclave and uses like burbling percolated water. I don't think the pressure's that high. I couldn't figure out from their documentation because they don't tell you how high the pressure is. how high it is, and I could have calculated if I knew exactly the height of the water that they're pushing through to generate the pressure, but I couldn't say,
+
+[39:00] whatever, I couldn't do it. But those guys are genuine nut jobs making those fryers. And so I would go to them. Another thing I should tell you is that, um, I also forget whether or not you said that you're good with building things or
+
+[39:14] not. Do you remember? I remember stuff. I don't remember Um, what you can do is, um, what you can do is build your own fryer, and I've done this. So what you, here's some here's some basic, basic math for you. My fryer, uh, or the one I just threw it out, but the fryer that I had in the fryer that I'm going to get, um, has approximately 90,000 BTUs for about um, 5 gallons of oil, about
+
+[39:42] 35, £40 of oil. And what that means is you're looking at around 18,000 BTUs per
+
+[39:50] gallon and that equals about 5.2 kilowatts. That is a freaking lot. Out of a, and, you know, as you rightly say, home fryers, they don't have really the ability to heed that much because you're looking at roughly 1500 watts max,
+
+[40:04] one. 5 kilowatts. If you have a 220 circuit, then you can, you could probably boost that to about 3 kilowatts. Now you're getting close to the amount of power you need to heat a full gallon of oil. So here's what you could do if you're handy. You could buy a temperature controller, buy two, right? You want, uh, you don't need PID. don't want PID. You want what's called a bang bang controller. Something it turns the heater on and then turns the heater off when you're done. Okay? Strap, uh, one of the uh, strap a control, uh, bulb or
+
+[40:35] a, uh, uh, uh, so we're, thermocouple directly to a heating um. Oh, go on uh mcmaster.com, get the longest, you're gonna need 220 for this, not 110, 220. Get the longest bendable immersion heater that you can get at the highest power that your 220 circuit can deliver,
+
+[40:53] right? Now, you want to bend, you got to get a pot, you want a pot that's tall, fairly
+
+[40:58] tall, uh, for its uh, for its size, right? And then you're going to put a grate, a rack in it. You're gonna want to bend like special legs for the rack so that the rack sits fairly high in the pot,
+
+[41:10] right? Below that's going to be your cold zone, right? And then, you know, a couple inches. Give yourself. Then you're going to rest the tube heater. The longest one you can do. You bend it into something that fits into the pan. The reason why you want it long is you want the longest, the biggest surface area possible. If you really have skills, you could put fins on it, but don't worry about it. Bend it up, out, you have a thermocouple that measures the oil temperature and then a safety one strapped onto it to shut the thing off. Make sure it's bang, bang. As soon as the oil temperature drops, you want it to go on full force. You don't want any PID action because it's going to slow down your recovery rate. Then you can do things like measure before you start frying with it. How, you got to be careful. If you're worried about electrocuting yourself, don't do this. I mean, this is not safe. This is just something you can do at home. Anyways. Uh, I've done it before and you can make a relatively decent uh, deep fryer, if you, with a cold zone, if you have, uh, if you're handy, if you're not worried about things, and, well, of course you are, though, because if your wife doesn't want you to deep fryer, she probably also doesn't want you
+
+[42:10] to, to be bending tubular immersion heaters and, uh, and hooking them up on your stuff, but whatever. a good project. Stas is shaking your head and saying that I'm a jerk. Okay, uh, back onto uh, the pots. If you have dings in the enamel, you're going to have some iron, iron is reactive. It's not nearly as bad as copper, copper is like the ultimate enemy. I mean, if you think about it, what happens, old commercial deep fryers were regular steel and not stainless, and you would get a layer of polymerized oil on the steel that would just never go away, and then that
+
+[42:41] would, um, that would kind of protect it from further degradation. But in general, you're going to want to go stainless. Enamel should work fine. You don't really care about how much heat is going to build up because you're using the thermal mass of the oil. You're not really storing so much energy in the cast iron. So I wouldn't worry about that too much. So I would also recommend going online. It's a little bit outdated, and getting a PDF copy of the Egan Press, which is put out by the American
+
+[43:06] Association of serial chemists, fats and oils books, it's extremely readable, and they have a whole section on deep frying. So, uh, you know, basically from them, what's going on is uh, hydrolysis in the fat oil, so water is coming out of the fat oil and the water, especially those high temperatures, is uh, is causing breakdown, of the fat into free fatty acids, uh, you know, which are, you know, then cause oil
+
+[43:31] breakdown. And so, you know, hydrolysis from water is one of your enemies. Oxidation is one of your enemies and this stuff's accelerated at
+
+[43:40] higher, all the stuff's accelerated at higher temperature. Polymerization of the oil molecules is another enemy. And then also as you fry more, especially at higher temperatures on a pan, you're going to have food particles falling
+
+[43:52] in a pot rather. You can have food particles falling to the bottom. Since you are supplying the heat from the bottom. The hottest part of the oil is exactly where you don't want it to be, where all the settled crap is. And so typically what happens is, is you'll get very fast oil breakdown. You also, because you don't have a high enough power to recover fast enough, your oil, you're going to be constantly overheating
+
+[44:15] it, and even minimal overheating of oil is incredibly bad for the life and the taste of the oil that you're using for frying.
+
+[44:25] So, you know, that's just kind of a general range of kind of what's going on and how you're getting
+
+[44:29] shafted. Uh, like I said, best meeting you started again. Stas, please. Like I said, the best way around, uh, you know, the best way to help yourself, even in a home frying situation, is to go to a commercial supplier, go to someone who supplies restaurants and get commercial grade frying oil where they've added,
+
+[44:51] uh, they've added antioxidants to it. They've removed the fatty acid components that are the most likely to degrade
+
+[44:59] quickly, and they also, um, they sometimes add anti-foaming agents, which also prevent the oil from breaking down. And so that professional fry oil is so much better than
+
+[45:11] the, than the stuff you can get at the supermarket that uh, that, that Stas and I have considered actually just buying a bunch of it and selling it to people like, like we know what we're doing because it's so much better. You have to buy it in 5 gallon increments. So if you're using it, you know, relatively quickly, store it away from light,
+
+[45:28] uh, it shouldn't be a problem. They come in plastic cube, they come in like square cardboard. Everyone's seen these on the street. When you pass a, like a, like a fry joint, you know, like or, you know, whatever, place that uses a lot of fryers. You see them on the on the curb there. cardboard cubes with the plastic cube tainer in the middle of them. And that stuff's just fantastic. So if you get a hold of that, your fry game's gonna go up immensely right away. What do you think's does? I was like, I don't care. don't care. Two more babies. She just said, oh, I'll start thinking about the breastfeeding. And people, I want you to know, this lady has a scarf over the baby's face. So Nastasia needs to step back. But the, uh,
+
+[46:12] so today, by the way, I'll just say this as we're going out. Today we're going to go to the food and wine and we're doing a Thanksgiving shoot with the Sears all, right? We're going to do some sort of fancy tech. I guess we're not supposed to spoil it, right? But it's a similar technique to the one that I did back in the day for the
+
+[46:27] hamburger with the exploding ketchup in the middle. Remember that with the shot where it's like... for eater way back in the day. But I'll give a little bit of a secret. What we did is we made Parker House rules that are filled with stuffing. So it's just a thin layer of Parker House roll with stuffing on the inside. Those are pretty good, right size? Yeah, they were good. And remember, oh, did we get another Thanksgiving question? Oh, I looked up the turkey. The one that Piper gave you last night. Yeah. So we had a question last week about using hydrogen peroxide, H202 to disinfect
+
+[46:58] the turkey that was being cooked at low temperature from it was based on a blog post by Simon Quellan Field. And I looked it up and the guy coats his entire turkey with bacon, by the way. Entire freaking turkey is like a, is like, you know, like a pie is like a lattice. This is like a lattice of bacon. Uh, and it's extremely low temp. He put in the H202. I was not able to find any references to whether or not that would affect the flavor of the meat in
+
+[47:23] any way. It's used in water, uh, and presumably it'll all, you know, it'll react and you won't get it, but I don't know whether
+
+[47:29] they, like the extreme oxidation reactions are going to do anything to the flavor of the skin or anything.
+
+[47:34] I wasn't able to find any references. And since I don't have a kitchen, I wasn't able to just soak a piece of chicken or something in
+
+[47:40] H202 and then cook it off and see whether there's any residual effects. But rest assured, we will try this at some point. I feel like we got one more question and stuff. So we have we have a couple seconds. Wait, we have one in from at Raider Nicole. was the one. Cooking issues. How do you prevent warmed over flavors and reheated chicken? Uh, and it just says marinade, baked or pan fried as questions. What you do is store the product away from oxygen. It's oxidation. It's oxidative rancidity that's causing the warmed over flavors. So you can reheat gently in zippies, ziplocs that you have gotten all the oxygen out of. and then just hit it with high heat to crisp off or do whatever you want. But the enemy there is storing it, allowing it to cool and rest in contact with oxygen in the air. And remember to get your Thanksgiving questions in because next week is last cooking issues before
+
+[48:40] Thanksgiving, cooking issues.
+
+[48:48] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[49:00] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all-natural,
+
+[0:06] grass fed and grass finished beef. For more information, visithurstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Aron, your host of cooking, because she's coming to you live. For my birthday, three in, Bushwreck, Brooklyn. Happy Thanksgiving episode. Joining the studio today with this Dasha, the Hammer Lopez, and Piper from Booker and Dax Lab. How you guys doing? Good. Yeah, we got Joe over the Engineering Booth. Joe. How you doing? I'm doing well What are you going to do for the Thanksgiving? Oh, I'm just going to go back to Baltimore to visit the family. Nice, quiet Thanksgiving. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited though. That's your excited voice? I'm excited, though. Yeah, just like that Yeah, yeah. All right. Nice, nice. And Piper, you're doing what? are you doing? You're gonna go to Vermont? Vermont. Yeah. I've heard that they have no internet and telephone in Vermont. Is that true? No. No paved roads either. No, no? No? No? You got to go to New Hampshire for paved roads? Oh. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, for those of you that, you know, haven't tuned in before. And Piper's on, you know, they got a kind of a hate hate thing going on between Vermont and New Hampshire. What the only thing that they can agree on there? Maine? Yeah, and and what about Maine? It's a dark wilderness. I actually like Maine quite a lot. I enjoy the main. But I don't come from up there, so I don't have to worry about it. Stas, what are you gonna do? Parents are here. Oh wow. What does leave it at that? parents are here. They rented a house where? Near New Haven. And who's going to make the turkey? Mother. And how is your mom's turkey? I'm not going to talk about it every year. not going to talk about it. great. What? What's it the lie? Everyone knows, everyone knows that it's a little dry. Yes. A little dry. That's my next band, man. A little dry. Call any questions? 2718-4972128. That 7184972128. I am actually going to a potluck family Thanksgiving thing. So I have no idea what the food will be like at all. But I do know one thing. I am driving there and driving home again from it, which means I will not be having any wine at Thanksgiving. sucks. That's the best part. What are you bringing as part of your potluck? I have no freaking idea. I have no idea. I've just been like, like, people. I have, like, Thanksgiving, as it should be for a food person, is one of my all-time favorite holidays. I love myself from Thanksgiving, and this year I have not had any time to devote to it at all. But what I do have is one of Patrick Martin's heritage birds that I'm
+
+[2:58] going to cook as soon as I get home. So hopefully maybe before next time I can talk about the home. I have a big believer if you go to somebody else's house for Thanksgiving, and you don't necessarily get the turkey you want. That's all about the fellowship, but you should still try to bust out one good turkey a year just as a proof of, you know, proof of
+
+[3:15] skiz ills. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, right? Uh, the 3 of us, we didn't talk about it, right? We didn't talk about the photo shoot we did at Food and Wine, did we? Yeah, we did we did the little turkey with the gravy packet on the inside where we took the gravy packet, made the gravy packet, with gelatin. Well, extra gelatin, the, and then uh, and calcium, uh, cut it, and set it, cut it into blocks, uh, threw it into algerinate, put a heatproof, uh, like thin layer around it, and then did the very finely pounded, uh, white meat, turkey, uh, right around the mid meat
+
+[3:50] glue, right around the uh, gravy packet. Then we did the dark meat turkey. Then we did the skin. We did the cookoff. We, then we dried off the skin, we hit it with the sears all. Sears all, Sears all, Sears all. And then we, uh, oh, this is the fun part. Stas made Parker house roll, dough, and I made my mom's stuffing, and we packed the stuffing, and we put the Parker house roll around it, and then we cooked the stuff off. It tastes pretty good. I mean, Piper couldn't tell because he's not allowed to, you know. Yeah, I could eat the crannies. Oh, Piper made crannies, which register trademark. Pat and Penny. Not really, not really Pat and Penny. Not really a trademark either. But, uh, that's really simple stuff. That's stuff. That stuff was simply. Just mixed, we made the cranberry sauce, strained out the salads and mixed it with mayonnaise, right? No. What? No. What do you do? I strained out the solids from the cranberry sauce, and when it was not set, but still a little bit
+
+[4:45] warm, but put the yolk in there. Oh, you made it from, you made scratch, scratch. You didn't mix mayonnaise, you made it old school. Is it because I yelled at you that the guy that Bao made it the chocolate mayonnaise back in the day and made you feel bad about it? I mean, you said that as sort of a precedent. Yeah. Nah, I thought Piper took it an easy way out, but it turns out. Piper, Piper did me proud and did not take the easy layout. and it was delicious. was good. Yeah it was really good. I'm going to do it for my family, I think. Yeah? Why don't you can you fit the recipe into Twitter? Can you get it that short? I did the whole thing for steak once in Twitter. I was like, nah. Look at now. You could do like 2 tweets. No, I bet Piper can't do it in one tweet. That what I'm saying. You know the Piper can do it in one tweet? We're struggling with tweets right now. What if I just wrote it down and then took a photo of it? That's a weak tweet. That's weak tweet. Weak tweet. The whole point of the tweet is to try to get within a medium, which is the
+
+[5:40] character. Well, no, he's going to try to... Piper's going to send out this damn recipe one way or other. And in order to get it, I'm not going to put it on the cooking issues tweeting feed. You're going to have to go follow Booker and Dax's lab, which is where the Searsol thing is going to be going up in 2 days.
+
+[5:59] Well, 2 days in like 5 hours, 2 days in like 8 hours, whatever it is. Midnight, midnight. Two days and 12 hours. Thursday, Friday. Thursday, Friday, Black Friday. So you want to talk about what's going on with that? I mean, uh, if you're following us on Twitter, you already know that we've got a lot of uh, big names using the series all loving the series all. And we're going to launch it. The videos coming together, the pages coming together. It looks great. I'm excited. Yeah. You want to tell them about our sushi chef friend? Uh, Desuke Nakazawa? Yeah. The famous four. He worked at Zero. He was the guy who made the omelet. By the way, Stas and I have eaten at Giro. The omelet, the tomago there is, in fact, different from any other one and delicious. Remember it was kind of fluffy and like almost like a cake. Remember that thing? That was actually one of my favorite things about Jiro was the tomago. Delicious. And now the, the, the developer, I guess, the master of my favorite
+
+[6:54] tomago now uses the steer cell. He's got a restaurant somewhere in the West Village, huh? Yeah, I hear it's hard to get into though, right? Hard to find. It's on commerce. Oh my god. Look, look, people, see, here's the problem. Like, people are telling inside jokes on the radio. They were in a taxicab with a famous chef who is known for having a bit of a
+
+[7:16] temper and a taxi driver was unable to find, uh, a
+
+[7:20] knocks out sushi restaurant. And so there was hilarity ensued, right? And by hilarity, I mean anger. And fear. But, uh, he loves uh, Nakazawa, loves the, the Searzole uh, doesn't, but any taste on the salmon skin that he crisps up with it? It was awesome. Well, maybe someday we can go eat some. See how they see how that works out for us. I love to. All right. Hey, real quick, before we move on. I just want for our 1st time listeners, I want to jump in and say, okay, so what is the
+
+[7:49] sears all? Why do we want it? et cetera. I love the idea that we might have a 1st time listener. I feel like we had like, we had a certain peak and then we just, yeah, and then we just lose them all. somebody wandered in here. Yeah, right. Yeah. what is this? So, it's a good point. Good point, Jalen, thanks so much. The Searzole is an attachment that fits on a torch. So for years, right, if you're doing low temperature, sous vide cooking, especially at home, the way I used it, honestly, the way I used to finish a steak or anything, fish,
+
+[8:19] poultry, anything that I would do sous vide, deep fry. Only way, deep fry, deep fry, right? And that's crispy and delicious. Love the deep fryer. Uh, problem is, not everyone has a commercial deep fryer in their house. I mean, I guess because of, like what I said before, a couple episodes ago about insurance reasons and whatnot. Some people don't like the idea of frying things, finished frying things for CVD. They wrong. delicious, but, you know, whatever. Um, and most people don't have power output enough to heat up a pan sufficiently.
+
+[8:52] So, really, charcoal grill is a good option, but, you know, a lot of people can't do a charcoal grill right
+
+[8:59] away or they don't have one or they're in an apartment or something like this. So a lot of people turn to the blowtorch. The problem with a blowtorch is, it creates what we call a torch taste on the meat, which would be a very, very
+
+[9:12] characteristic, torchy fuel taste that, you know, our friend Ariel, UC Davis, did some work for us. Thank, you know, thank you, where she showed that in fact, it's not the fuel itself. It's causing it, but the intense heat of the flame is creating combustion
+
+[9:27] flavors on the meat itself. So we have this item called the sears all, which plugs onto a torch. We recommend the Burnsomatic TS 8000 TS 8000 because it's 12,000 BTUs. It plugs on this thing and it turns it into a mini handheld IR broiler, basically. What do you think? Yeah, it's about right. Yeah? Yeah? I know what I'm talking about? Okay. Now, for some questions. Rory Rory Mir's right, Santa about Jews. Hey, to the cooking issues team. My wife just bought a juicer, not the auger type, but the type of the fine spinning blade. My question is, how can I preserve the juice for longer than a few hours? I've tried searching the Google, but I get a lot of mumbo jumbo about how you shouldn't try to preserve it because of its magical
+
+[10:04] life giving nutritional properties. are so fleeting. However, I only drink the juice because it tastes good. Is that not reason enough? So what are my options to get it to last, say, one week? I have a scorebic acid on hand, although I have no idea what sort of percentages to use it in, and I also have a sous vide and no qualms about heating the fruit
+
+[10:19] juice, heating the fruit prior to juicing, or in fact, the resulting juice. I'm keen to make bulk, lots of tasty fruit, apple, orange, and or veggie juice, whatever's cheap at the market on the weekend
+
+[10:29] to last the week. Love the show as always. Keep it up, regards Rory Mearns. Okay, oh, and then PS. I am going to read the PS4 and answer the question because I love it. PS on Deez nuts. He goes, we happen to be listening to the episode with the rant about Virginia Peanuts while driving through Virginia on our U.S. road trip holiday. I want to take a U.S. Road trip holiday with my kids, but my kids would never be into it. Like, I want to do all that crap, maybe in a year. Maybe in a year. Did you guys do that in your kids? On the road trip around that country? I've done it recently, but not as a kid. Not as a kid. Oh, I'll get into it later 5 times. Like, all I'm saying is that I used to do it, and I appreciate that I did it now, but it's boring as hell to sit in the back of the car and watch a bunch of stuff go
+
+[11:07] by. So, like, when we drive with the kids, the kids, like, they have their faces buried in iPhones and
+
+[11:11] iPads and, like, my wife and I are like, what the hell? Look around at the scenery. Look at this, look. And then they don't really care. And then like, I remember back, I'm like, yep, Jen, that's my wife. I was like, yo, Jen, I mean, I remember not giving a crap when I was a kid, right? But you guys don't have this experience to share with me because you didn't do that. No. Joe, did you do that stuff? I think he's away. Um, you know, not really like cross country road trips, but you know, we drove a couple hours here and there. And were you bored as crap in the back? Oh, it depends. I also got car sick, so that's kind of my main memory. feeling nauseous. Sweet. Yeah, sweet. Driving and puking. That was that great southern rock band. Remember that driving and puking? Yeah. Or was it driving and crying? I think it was driving and crying. Should have been driving and puking. Good band. Okay, we happen to be listening to the episode with the rant about Virginia Peanuts while driving through Virginia on our U.S. road trip holiday. My wife said, yeah, right. How good can the peanuts really be? I don't know that your wife speaks that way, but that's just my voice when I imitate people. And exact, it's exactly what my reaction was. Within 10 minutes of that, we stopped at some tired looking roadside shop and picked up a can of the goods. Wow, we were both blown away. They were so insanely good. And just as you described with an unfamiliar but satisfying snap to them. Virginia Peanuts. nuts. Okay, now back to your question. So, um, just one note on juices, you mentioned orange, and
+
+[12:32] obviously orange, you're going to juice it in a different way. Be careful when you are juicing oranges, because some oranges, specifically some navels, some tan, well, it's not an orange, but some tangerines, other
+
+[12:47] will, the juice will bitter over time. So, uh, just, you know, just test a couple and it's variety dependent. you know, you just test it. And if after a couple of hours, it hasn't gone bitter. You're probably okay. But it's just something to note on some citrus fruits that some will undergo post post-juice bittering. some tangerines. I don't know whether climate times do. I think some climate times do. A lot of navals do. Anyway, just need to be aware of. Ascorbic acid is going to be your lifesaver on a lot of these things. I wouldn't do a pre, I wouldn't do a pre, uh,
+
+[13:26] juicing, uh, heat step on it because I don't, you know, you're not going to get uh, mold growth that quickly on your juice in the fridge or in the freezer as long as it's not moldy to begin with. You wash, you know, you wash it thoroughly. If you want to do a sanitized step, if you have a non-flavor of, like, one of those fruit sandy fruit. What are those things called? You ever seen those things? those fruit sandy. I never use them. We've never seen them. They have them. They're like solutions you can dip like salad and stuff into if you're pregnant and then it doesn't like, but I've never used it. Some people even use like a wheat chlorine, dip it in and then let it air out. I've never done it. I never done it. Anyways. But you can do it. And and juice it. Uh, then, uh, I usually way overdose on ascorbic acid,
+
+[14:07] like way overdose on ascorbic acid, like to the tune of about a teaspoon per liter, right? Would you say it's about what we do, pipes? Yeah, it's a lot. It doesn't add too much flavor. It doesn't have too much flavor, but it, you know, it does juice you up on vitamin C, so you can, you know, pee yellow and maybe live forever.
+
+[14:22] Although Linus Pollen did not live forever. Last polling was the famous two-time Nobel Loriate scientist who, well, the 2nd one he won was a peace prize, but he thought you could greatly increase longevity and reduce disease by just
+
+[14:35] megadosing on vitamin C. You know what happened to him? He peed out a bunch of vitamin C and then died? That's pretty accurate. Although he did live to a ripe old age. and was, you know, one of the smartest scientists of the 20th century. Anyway, so there you go, last pawn. So anyways, so I usually add about a teaspoon per liter and stir it
+
+[14:54] in. And if you want to keep it for a long time, I would say cold, back, bag it, and then freeze it. When you when you do it, the best way to freeze it is to backbag the juice and then lay it on a sheet tray and freeze it flat in a
+
+[15:08] sheet. And that way they stack very well in your freezer. And also when it comes time to thaw them, you're only thawing through, you know, like, I don't know, like, three eighths of an inch to let, you know, three eighths of an inch roughly is what we usually do them
+
+[15:22] at, three eighths of an inch of stuff, you have to thaw out in running water in order to get the juice usable again.
+
+[15:28] So that's why I recommend, and juice lasts a good week in the fridge depends on the
+
+[15:34] juice too. I mean, like grapefruit juice. Eh, what do you think? Weak piper? Nah. Orange juice, couple days. Freeze it. Freezing. Yeah, freeze it. Flat in VAX. Yeah, you're good. Apple juice would last a good week. Oh yeah. It's not, I don't think you're gonna get mold. Piper would add, what would you add to as a preservative if you really want to keep that sucker? Sodium benzoate. Testing sorbet? Small amounts. Super micro, like, uh, 100? Yeah, we only need a small bit because you're really only preventing the slightest. Look, you're not trying to keep this sucker, you know, yeast proof in a shelf stable application over like a zillion years. You're talking about keeping a sucker in the fridge for a week. So the amount of stabilization you know, you need is minimal. I wouldn't, I mean, if you were doing it for a week, I wouldn't put anything in. But if you were going to have it on the shelf, I mean, you want to prevent against microbial growth. Yeah, but you remember, there's also they're not carbonating it. So like when you're doing benzoit and a soda application, which is Web Piper's done most of the research on, you know, the
+
+[16:38] carbon dioxide is also a huge inhibitor. Right. And so is actually the, the, uh, acorbic acid. is a huge inhibitor too. It's really going to protect it. Yeah, but it doesn't last, but it'll last a week. Ascorbic acid doesn't last over time. It gets it gets used and then it's over. But I also agree that I think, you know, you're right on point. I only drink the juice because it tastes good. That is reason enough. I don't believe in any magical, life-giving, nutritional properties. Although I was teaching a bunch of kids at Dax's 3rd grade
+
+[17:07] class. And this one kid he asked me. Do they make any machines that use juice as a fuel? I was like, you are a machine that uses juice as a fuel, my friend. Third graders are awesome. Anyway, I was explaining steam engines. I love it when they learn about food. Yeah, young. Yeah, young. juice. Okay. Uh, next, was that, was that an okay answer, Stas? Yeah. She's like, I really, I don't care. don't care. Matt from Chicago writes in also about nuts. Not of not these, but just it's nuts. Hello, Dave, and all the people who can, unlike Dave occasion, would be absent without thereby causing the whole show to skip a week. Ouch. Wow. Oh, stars, have you ever missed one? Have we? Have you ever missed one? No. I think I feel like I've done it once without you I think I don't know. We'll have to look it up. Okay. You mentioned on this week's episode a desire for a nut question every week. You're probably being facetious, but nevertheless, I'm here to do my part. I like not questions, right, pipes? And we got another one after this, too. awesome. Two more nut questions if we get to them. Awesome. Anyway, I seen, remember, in one of your early episodes, a brief reference to a book which covered methods for making not merely actual tofu, but very
+
+[18:14] tofu like products from things other than soy, such as nuts. Speaking of someone who's allergic to soy and all emanations thereof, but nevertheless, interested in experimenting with tofu-esque ingredients in the kitchen, I've searched through the archives,
+
+[18:25] it's been unable to identify which episode this was, let alone which book, so I'll just come out and ask.
+
+[18:30] Um, What information sources would you recommend for someone in my situation? Am I merely hallucinating this discussion from the show's past? Is there any consumer intelligent home cook oriented literature which provide a useful guide to the production of fofu? I like fofu as a term. Matt from Chicago-ish? PS, I feel sorry for whatever poor diluted, misguided persons wanted to remove your pro gear from your old apartment kitchen. I, for one, would happily pay a premium for such a kitchen. Stas was like, you preaching to convert it over here. Okay. So the, uh, so here's the thing, Matt. I did talk about that. And my thought was that it's in modernist cuisine, in the, you know, the massive tone that is modernist cuisine. Here's the problem. As I spoke last week. I moved apartments, and all of my books are still in boxes, so I didn't get a chance to go to the book and search it, but my recollection is that modernist cuisine has a section not merely on reforming
+
+[19:25] tofu, tofu with transplutaminates, but also on making alternative tofus from other legumes and other things like that.
+
+[19:33] Now, it's extremely obvious that you can get
+
+[19:37] tofu like textures from almost anything you want, any nut milk you want by setting it with the appropriate agents. Um, but I assume that's not what you're talking about. I assume you're talking about making an actual tofu like product that uses a coagulation as the technique. Now, I myself have experimented with peanuts, and the result was delicious, but the texture was crap.
+
+[20:04] It was worthless, useless. I tried it only one time and also clogged. It wouldn't coagulate hard enough, so it clogged my draining, you know, my draining towels. Um, so, and also my Nuin tofu book also packs. All my tofu references are packed. Actually, I found shirt leaf, but he doesn't believe in any of that stuff anyway. So next week, hopefully I have the books unpacked and I can address it again with the tofu, but my guess
+
+[20:30] is, is that if you took a protein, like something like peanuts and tried to make a peanut food and you added transplutaminates, when I was doing my experiments was well before I had started working with transplutaminates, this is like 2000, this is like
+
+[20:41] 2000, you know, when I was doing this stuff. And like, you know, 12, 13 years ago or something. So I need to revisit it maybe with transgutaminates. I'm sure you could get peanuts to set harder with if you use TG. What do you think, pipes? Yeah, I've gotten milk to set with it. in the centrifuge. I'm assuming, I don't know, Matt, whether you have a synergies or not, but we'll... Well, I'm sorry. Piper's like, just put it in your centifuch. What are you, jerk? What are you? Man, Piper. Piper. Okay. Take a break. Really? All right. We'll come back from the break with more cooking issues.
+
+[22:14] Like what you hear so far, support the network and become a member. Membership helps us bring you the best food radio in the world and gives you access to 1000s of dollars in discounts at the sustainably minded businesses that support us. To become a member, visit heritageradionetwork.org today.
+
+[22:45] First, transgrass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hearst, Ranch, Grass Fed, B, free range, sustainably produced,
+
+[23:00] humane. Hearst, Ranch, Grass Fed, Beef, the authentic flavor of the American West. Hell yes. Cooking issues. Love that song. Love that song. Earth, brunch, red, red beef. Love that stuff. We need to get, you know what? The people you don't know this guy yet. Maybe you've heard nostalgia speak about it, but Phil Bravo, friend of ours, kind of a friend of the show, not really a friend of the show. Friend of the Nastasias. Uh, the person that uh, that nostalgia, yeah, currently an enemy of the show, uh, Nastasia and Piper, uh, fed Jerusalem artichokes
+
+[23:39] too to mess with his insides. He has possibly one of the great radio voices of all
+
+[23:45] times. And he was supposed to come in to the show today and read the questions for Thanksgiving. His voice, when he wanted to be, is a dead ringer for a thorough Ravencroft, who you might know as the voice of Tony the Tiger. In fact, yesterday, Phil did it there great, which was I almost fell over. And I've heard that he does, you know, like a life-changing Mr. Grinch rendition. By the way, I don't want anyone calling in and saying that the Grinch is Boris Karlov. Look, the voice of the Grinch is Boris Karlov, right? Right? But Thurl Ravencroft is the song, right? And that's why it sounds different. That's why the song sounds different from the voice. Well, the song isn't 2nd person and the Grinch is typically in 1st person. Oh, with the analysis, correct. From creative writing major, Piper Christiansten. Anyway, so like, I can't wait for the extremely short Christmas season this year so that I can hear Phil Bravo do his rendition
+
+[24:44] of, you're a foul one, Mr. Grinch. Uh, but, uh, I would, the reason I brought that up is because I would love to hear Phil's rendition of her French grass red beef. The authentic taste of the American West, right? isn't that what it is? I believe it's the authentic taste of the American West. Is that true? As authentic as it gets. Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Oh, speaking of which, another one of our sponsors, the I have a from Underground Meats, I have something in. This is from Brandon Hopkins in Phoenix, Arizona. Hey, all. Thanks for the salami recommendations a few weeks ago. I ordered the Tuscan salami, supersata, I would cause, you know what? I from here, so I'm called Superstar. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right? How do you pronounce it, Stas? How is the actual Italian thing? Supersata. So prasata. Oh, super sad. All right. Pinocchio, right? Is that right? Fennel sausages, which salami. And the Spanish chorizo from underground meets underground meats. Underground meats. Everyone that tried them thought they were delicious. The Spanish chorizo was particularly tasty, which I served with Manchego and quince paste on some toasted baguettes. You were all right, Piper, until he busted out the baguettes. You were all good until he busted out there. You like membryo? Yeah, nice. Why you point the mic towards your face when you talk? Because he's shoving his face with food. That's all right. Don't worry about it. Anyway, I like membryo as well. Quits paste on some toasted baguettes. All the sausages were far superior to anything I have had in
+
+[26:09] the store. I thought you'd be happy to know how awesome the show's sponsor is not only was all their sausage delicious, but their delivery was very fast. I would recommend any sausage fans give underground meats a try. Thanks for the suggestion. Brandon Hawkins. That's good testimonial, right? Yeah, good people, good people there. Anyway, uh, and while we're on the subject of Meats, Lucas, friend of the show, writes
+
+[26:33] in, and friend of Mofad came to the Mofad party. He's going to give us the deer meat. He also had a comment on the on the breastfeeding. We have 2 comments on the breastfeeding thing. And surprisingly, most people, look, before we get into this, like, I'm not saying that someone should, like, shove their
+
+[26:50] shove the stuff in your face necessarily. I'm just saying, you know, don't don't be hating. Don't be hating, right? That's my point. No? No. All right, whatever. All right. So Lucas wants to give us some of his deer meat, which we desperately want. We're going to, like, 54 Eldridge is our lab, by the way, on Eldridge Street, between Canal and Hester. Like, we're not available, though, until after Thanksgiving. we'll have to get the deer made at some point after Thanksgiving. But he writes, uh, for the record, I think women should be able to breastfeed however they want, albeit the usage of the scarf should be a matter of good
+
+[27:24] taste rather than of policy, right? I think that's the point. It's not making a policy, but it is, I guess, good taste, right? I think we can agree. I saw a lady in a business meeting, though. bare breastfeeding. Are you observing this? At Roberta's, yes. So then Lucas adds, however, as you sit in the center of hipsteropolis, which is a good word. I don't think you can demand too much good taste. Oh, that's true. And while we're on it, we had another comment in on that, might as well go to that. Dr. Bob writes in. Hi, Nastasia, for some of us, the female body is the pinnacle of creation and should be treated with the utmost respect. When I examine abreast in an emergency department exam room, it's done only with a female staffer in attendance. When it's not being examined, the breast is kept respectfully tucked away in the exam gown, even though the patient is in a private room. I realize cultural norms vary around the world, but in a New York
+
+[28:15] restaurant, with a wide variety of public in attendance, I agree that the respectful thing, particularly for the woman in question, is to keep the breast covered, the awe and mystery of the female form is worthy of preservation, Dr. Bob.
+
+[28:26] Thanks, Dr. Bob. Well, as I love the way you said that, says. It's awkward. Well, you're the one who brought it up. You can't you can't bring something like that up and then... appreciate it. It's still awkward. All right. Awkward, right? That's like, same. Alex from Santa Barbara writes saying, hello, Dave and Nastasia, I guess Piper, even though, you know, Alex didn't include you. Nobody knew it didn't applied. The implied Piper? that's the next thing, the implied Piper. I will skip the fryer talk because we would talk about fryers and ask about Thanksgiving. I've been working on a pecan pie. Pecan or pecan. Pecan? Are you pecan or pecan? Pecan. Pecan? But I think everyone down there goes pecan, right? Pecan. What about Baltimore? You're on the dividing line between the north and the south. What do you say? I say pecan. Yeah. PPAN sounds like toucan. Ooh, toucan Sam. You know what really ticks me off? They have a new Fruit Loops thing that has this like weird center goop in it. I haven't tried it. My kid's been pest screaming, but it hasn't gone on sale yet, so I have, we're talking about fruit loops, is what we're talking about, Piper. I don't eat cereal. I come from Vermont. So the, uh, like, they have this new fruit loops and the, the old advertisement for Fruit Loops was, follow your nose. It always knows. And like the toucan Sam goes around. But this new one, they're using freaking metal detectors to find the
+
+[29:40] fruit loops, toucan Sam is there where there's 2 canned minions, and a freaking metal detector. Why do you need a metal detector to find fruit loops? Follow your nose, Sam. It always knows. Gosh. What's with the fruit? in the center. I don't know, man. don't know. I don't know man. They're finding the treasure chest. I don't know what the hell's going on with it. First of all, it's a fruit loop, not a fruit pillow. And 2nd of all, the freaking toucan with his giant nose and all the
+
+[30:08] color stripes is supposed to be able to smell any dang fruit loop product from a mile away.
+
+[30:13] And the fact that maybe he's so old, his nose is shot. He has to use a metal detector to find it. Get your advertising straight. That irritated the heck out of me. And then, even worse, my kids saw that and then they still wanted it because they didn't realize what a slap in the face it was, the 2 cans
+
+[30:29] everywhere that they had to use some sort of electronic gimmickery to find the fruit loops jerks. Okay. Uh, I will skip the fire talking back to Alex. And that's about Thanksgiving. I been working on a pecan pie inspired dessert for Thanksgiving, kind of like a peanut butter cup, but with pecans. The flavors are great. Once sugar oil and molasses are added, but the texture is off. I can't get the crumbly, moist, dense texture that the mad scientists at Reese's pull off. Any ideas? Listen, Alex from Santa Barbara. So the, the, the trick with when you're trying to imitate somebody else's texture, the best thing to do is to figure out kind of how
+
+[31:07] they, how they make it, right? Now, I know I've mentioned on the, uh, on the show before that one of the key notes in a real Reese's peanut butter cup
+
+[31:15] is, um, is rancidity, is, you know, oxidative rancidity of the, uh, peanut butter. And I believe I mentioned, I know I mentioned at some point, I don't know how long ago, that I spoke to someone from a company that does oxygen scavenging packaging that prevents rancidity in packaged goods, and they did a test run of Reese's
+
+[31:35] Peanut Butter cups with the oxygen scavengers in them, and nobody liked them because they missed the taste of rancidity,
+
+[31:41] right? So anyway, so you might want to let the pecans go rancid before you make it. If you really want it. If you really want to hit that re-season note right on the button. But what I recommend you do is go look up a copycat recipe for Reese's. Now, Nastasia looked up. There's a well-known copycat recipe dude named Todd Wilbur. He has YouTube videos, I think, and he has a show and he has a couple books on copycat recipes. He tackled Reese's. And what he uses his trick, supposedly, is to use reduced fat peanut butter and powdered sugar.
+
+[32:17] So he, like, he's using fundamentally reduced fat peanut butter and powdered sugar. Now, luckily for you, the pecans that you get in general,
+
+[32:25] uh, have, uh, my guess is from having ground a lot of pecan butter over the years.
+
+[32:31] Remember, Stas, we used to have to grind pecan butter constantly. Styles has got that, that, thank Christ, that part of my life is over smile on her face, right? Yeah, we hated that. I hated doing that. We had to do it all the time. We used to just do pecans constantly. Pecan oil, pecan butter, pecan soups, all in centrifuges, pecans, pecans, pecans. Now, stars are going to be reliving that nightmare with hickory nuts. When are we going to get those things in? Super soon. Okay. So they, uh, and and we're going to test butternuts too. I don't know what the guy from Home Depot. We found a guy in Home Depot, literally, were in the plant section. Nastasia's in the plant section because like, I'm going to go get some bubbs for my house. I'm like, what the? And then she's there and she's like, come here, come here. And, like, this guy is over in the corner talking about, I got all these hickory nuts in my, in my
+
+[33:15] yacht, and, uh, I hear that some people on the internet, they like these things. So I collected them and I'm thinking out of selling them, but I don't really know how. And I was like, we can buy them. We can buy all of the hickory nuts. Right? Is that what you said? P productive, yeah. Yeah, well you wouldn't talk. But you forced him to. But you both overheard him, heard him, I guess. That's when we were picking up our freeze dryer from ideas and food, ideas and food. We have a free drive from that. We've had a chance to fire it up yet. I've been working on the, uh, working on the Sears all. so I haven't had a chance to fire up the freeze dryer. After Thanksgiving, we'll fire up the free dryer and give you guys reports. Hey Dave, I got to jump in here for a second. So, a listener, just sent in to info at heritageradionetwork.org, a picture of
+
+[33:55] crusty owes from the Simpsons that comes with a free jagged metal
+
+[34:00] crustio inside and saying that maybe 2K and Sam is looking for crustio's. Maybe. I mean, that's why he because he can't he needs the metal, he needs the metal detector to find the jaggedy metal one. Yeah exactly. And I was just impressed at the speed, I wish that came in. I guess it's live radio, right? Again, yeah, we're live. We're live. When I say coming to you live, I'm not messing around. No way. No, we're actually here. Real human beings coming to you live. Okay, so his secret is to use the reduced fat peanut butter. My guess from grinding a lot of pecans over the years is that, because we would typically to get a good oil yield out of the pecans, we would add some oil back to it.
+
+[34:36] Remember that status because they would, um, they're not as dry as almonds, but they're more dry than probably peanuts, definitely peanut butter that has oil added to
+
+[34:45] it. So, if you grind straight pecans or I guess maybe you're using pecan butter. And then you got to get your molasses and whatever else you do to the texture of a powdered sugar. I mean, that's gonna be the issue. They don't make a, uh, how would you do that? Just use brown sugar and powder it, right? So you don't have the extra moisture content? Just powderized brown sugar in a robo coup with some other dry stuff. Freeze and powder it? Like, how are you going to powder brown sugar? Oh, get the get the free running, get the free running brown? Order and pest. What's gonna, no, it's gonna gum up. Get the free running brown, maybe? Oh, Demerhara. Yeah. And then powderizing in a blender. And then maybe add some cornstarch to it because that cornstarch to tender powdered sugar might be helping out a little bit. You don't know what the ratio of cornstarch in powder sugar is, do you? No, it's not huge, though. No, it's like a couple percent, right? Yeah. So the cornstarch is probably helping with the texture a little bit, right? Because it's, you know, making giving it that pasty, right? And then uh, powderize the uh, brown sugar substitute, uh, and then just make sure the fat content of your pecans aren't too high, and that should be getting the texture you want. And if you want, check out Todd Wilbur's, whatever, his website.
+
+[35:56] But it looks like you're going to reduce the oil and uh, eh, what do you think? Tell me where that works. I'm interested to hear the result because until I found hickory nuts, my feeling was pecans were
+
+[36:07] God's nut, but now I think hickory nuts are God's nut, right? God nut. Okay. Philippe Lament writes in about possibly, possibly poisoned bread. Hello, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Joe and Man Piper. This is what I meant writing in. Thanks for the advice on the soft serve machine. I recently went on vacation and ate at a spectacular restaurant called Amas in Copenhagen. I never been. I was in Copenhagen for like 13 minutes, and I took a train to Sweden, got the hell out. Never been to any of those restaurants. Masters in Copenhagen, yeah? Yeah, to Copenhagen. Yeah. Anyway. Uh, there we were served a bread made with 13rd fermented cooked potato.
+
+[36:47] We were told, I like the word potato, potato. We were told that the potatoes were cooked, mashed, and put in cryovac bags, and fermented in a warm room. The bread was amazing, but wouldn't this anaerobic and warm environment create a poison. What's up? Thank you. Well, yes, it most likely could. So this is very similar to salt rising bread. sometimes made with a potato starter. There's a lot of anaerobic fermentation of potatoes in Andean
+
+[37:18] cooking where, you know, where the potato comes from. Some of the, their freeze dried chunio potatoes are kept in water and fermented, and there's also something called
+
+[37:26] tokash or togash, which is like literally you bury the potatoes in water for, you know, I don't know, like months and then you dig it up and then, I think they say that they use running water, so it takes the bacteria away, but you and I both know that that's not the case.
+
+[37:38] So, uh, so yeah, so what's going to grow in there? So the 2 main things that you're going to get growing. And in fact, salt rising bread, the actual rising is not done by
+
+[37:50] yeast, it's done by your good buddy, claustradium perfringes. And that is not good. You do not want to get a perfinogens infection, especially if you're like, you know, a soldier in battle because that causes gas gangrene, which is bad, bad. And it also creates an interotoxin, which, you know, can, you know, get you sick. So, all in all, bad. The, uh, but the good news is, is that when you cook bread, you're cooking it up to
+
+[38:20] uh, the boiling point of water typically to 12 or higher, right? Because it's getting at least at least a 180 Fahrenheit, usually up higher up closer to the boiling point. And well before that happens, the toxins from the bacteria themselves are killed. The spores can't germinate because the moisture activity of the bread is not high enough when it's
+
+[38:43] done. And the, uh, because you might not be killing the spores. Remember, because that takes a much higher temperature than that for a long period of time, uh, because clustrating perfigions is a sport forming bacteria. But the toxins are neutralized, the vegetative cells are killed, and the spores cannot germinate in the environment of the cooked bread. So salt risen, salt rising bread safe. Also interesting. I read some papers on the line, on the internets, that say that, well, the other problem, and this, you can get this from a poorly stored baked potato, botulism, right? Botulism can grow. And there's been cases of poorly stored, you know, people eating baked
+
+[39:18] potatoes that have botulism and can cause problems. So, uh, the good news is that if you're specifically growing clustridium, clustridium perfringians will uh, outcompete the botulism. And there's been studies showing that botulism, clustradium, uh, you know, the
+
+[39:34] botulism uh, clustradium will not grow in the presence of a thriving uh, perfringian
+
+[39:39] colony. So that will take care of that. And the other good news is, let's say you should grow a boatload of botulism. The toxin, the botulin, botulism toxin is also heat labor and will be destroyed by the cooking. So in general, the, uh, you know, the, it seems that you're not gonna die from, uh, eating, um, the properly made, uh, stuff. And my experience from making salt rising bread and from
+
+[40:02] having, um, clustridium, uh, fermented, uh, what was it, cassava in, uh, in Senegal, was that, um, it has a very characteristic smell to it. And so you kind of know whether or not it's got the right bacterial mix in there when
+
+[40:18] you're when you're eating it, when you're making it rather. And so hopefully that stuff should guarantee that you're not going to
+
+[40:25] die and apparently you did not because you wrote us a question, right? What do you think? Yeah, yeah. Solved. Good. But, you know, again, you know, with all of the BS, you know,
+
+[40:36] I am not a, I am not a food safety, blah, blah, blah. Like, don't don't do this at home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Um, we had a question in from uh, Joe Blow. Joe Blow 667, Joe Blow 67. I can believe there's only 67. He must have been an early Joe Blow. Because like that's like one of the 1st ones you're going to check, right? I'm sure it's like up to like Joe Blow, 800,925,326. Anyway, any ideas for what you can do with peanut shells? Seems like a giant ways to eat the internet and throw the rest out. Well, you should just throw it on the floor. Yeah, like a Western bar. Yeah, yeah, right? Because like that like totally adds to the uh, to the what's it called, right? Ambiance? Yeah, ambiance. Ambience of the bar. No, but you know, take this seriously. Like, they don't taste good, right? But I don't know, okay, so you guys are like a little bit younger than I am. So when I say peanut, you say, like, name a person. Name a person who's worked with peanuts. I'm gonna see if they was only when I was a kid that they were teaching this stuff. People to feed elephants? Now, George Washington Carver, man. When I was a kid, when I was a kid, if you said, if you said the word carver or George Washington carver, you're peanut, peanut, you know what I mean? Have you said peanuts, you're like, true Russian Carver, 1000000000 ways to use a peanut. You know what I mean? So George Washington Carver was like, at least in the 70s, we were like, like,
+
+[41:57] like, taught constantly about, there was this guy who his life's work was he's going to figure out how
+
+[42:04] to, like, squeeze every last piece of uh, utility out of the freaking peanut. Turns out, the guy also worked on sweet potatoes and a bunch of other stuff. He was the he was the head of the agricultural department at the Tuskegee Institute for many
+
+[42:20] years starting at the beginning of the 1900s all the way through, I think, until, I think until his death. Uh, and uh, he he did write a book that you can get online uh, portions of it at least
+
+[42:31] called uh, how to grow the peanut and 105 ways of preparing it for human consumption. And this is not about the holes, but you should go check it, check it out. He also, he did a lot of patent work on like different ways to use peanuts, like making textiles out of
+
+[42:47] peanuts, and that's where the hull comes in, making like ointments out of peanuts, medicines out of peanuts, oils out of peanuts. Like, like, you know, like people say George Welsh, you cover, invade the peanut butter. That's a load of crap. That is not the case. Although he might have done a lot to popularize peanut butter here in the US of A. And again, the French hate peanut butter. Maybe it's because they have something against George Washington Carver. Weasels. But, uh, very interesting story. You should go read about George Washington Carver. Born a slave, uh, became, uh, you know, uh, an eminent, um, scientist. anyway. So the one that I like of his is, and then I'll answer your question. The one here's the weird ones. Number 43 in the peanut uses is peanut and cheese roast. Ravus? Yeah, yeah. I want someone to make this. Like maybe Piper Sunday after the KStar is done, you can make this, right? One cup grated cheese. No freaking specification of what kind of cheese. Now this is like 1910 or whatever. So, you know, whatever. Maybe let to figure out kind of what kind of cheese they would have had, like just lying around. Okay, you will use cheddar and tell us, okay, one cup breadcrumbs, you have to substitute gluten-free breadcrumbs, right? So you got your one cup grated cheese, your one cup of bread crumbs, your teaspoon of chopped onion, your one cup of finely ground peanuts, tablespoon butter, juice of half of a
+
+[44:02] lemon. This is a weird recipe, right? Salt to taste. Cook the onion in the butter and a little water until it's tender. That's random right there. Like adding water to sweat the onion out before the butt, that's random stiff stuff right there. random. Mix the other ingredients and moisten with water, more water. Using the water in which the onion has been cooked, pour into a shallow baking dish and brown in the oven. That is a weird, weird recipe. Sounds like a dip. No, he says it's a roast. I mean, he says it sets into a block. He doesn't say whether to serve it hot or serve it cold. I mean, that's crazy recipe. He says cook onion in butter and water. So why add the butter then and why not just add the butter later? And then mix breadcrumbs, peanuts, lemon, and cheese together with the water, and onion stuff, and bake it. That's weird. Yeah, strange. But you know what? You know, George Washington. I'm going to try it. I'm gonna give George Washington Carver a try. But to answer your question, the only thing I can think of that's useful from a food perspective is you can make charcoal from peanuts.
+
+[45:12] So shells. So you take the peanut shells, pack them into a chimney starter, light them
+
+[45:17] up, and then to make charcoal you have to cut off the entire oxygen supply. Once the stuff starts burning, you cut off the oxygen supply. They should go to charcoal. Most people, when they're actually using it for fuel, then compress them into briquettes and you can look up online how to do this. I wonder whether there's a use for the really fine charcoal, maybe has a really quick way to start charcoal, right? I mean, it's going to burn really quickly or burn really hot or maybe throw it on top of charcoal to give an extra burst of heat. I don't know. But it's the only thing I can think of from a food perspective. fuel for a smoker, maybe? Just not charcoal, but like regular shells. I don't know. what their smoke tastes like. No, no, no, but that's a good point, Piper. I like the way you think. I like the way you think. There's a lot of people who are considering using it in places that don't have a lot of wood and
+
+[46:00] that, you know, can't afford other things. You know what I mean? Although it's an awful lot of peanuts. To be cooking from the hulls. But anyway, so maybe someone will give it a try and test it out. Okay. Tristan Catcher writes in, making a Chev sorbet, cream cheese, and Chev, and syrup, churning it as normal. It's freezing smooth when it's fresh, but overnight it goes solid. How should I stabilize? I don't think you're adding enough sugar. You need to increase the sugar level on it. What I would do, if you don't want it to be sweet, is to use a low sugar, sweetener, like glucose syrup, which has a DE of like, what, it's
+
+[46:35] like 40, 40,
+
+[46:39] 40 something, like low DE, low DE glucose syrup, which is going to have a very low sweetness level. There are even less sweet things out there, but that are going to give you the bodying effect you need and the softening effect you need. If it's an actual stabilization problem. I like LBG locust bean gum for that kind of an application, so you just cook the whole thing out with the add the LBG coal disperse into, uh, into, uh, hopefully
+
+[47:02] water or whatever, and then and then cook it, cook it out above about 85, bring it back down. If you add eggs, I guess you didn't, and then it's a sorbet. So anyway, so then and then that should stabilize it and prevent any stabilization problems you have from a texture, but solidity is almost always
+
+[47:16] a sugar balanced problem. Would you agree on it? If you don't want to add more sugar. Another thing you can do, some people do, they add alcohol to soften it, I don't actually like to do that because
+
+[47:26] the, the, um, it melts weirdly when you add a lot of alcohol to
+
+[47:32] the sorbet, like it's like holding together and then all of a sudden it's not holding together anymore. It doesn't have the same meltdown that you get from kind of the sugar inhibition melting. At least that's been my experience in life. What about you, pipes? You feel it the same way or no? Uh, I haven't had too many uh, alcohol. We have color? No, we have color? Sorbets. Color, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, I was going to JD. Hey, what's going all right? up? Hey, I'm doing all right. I just have some questions in terms of, um, I'm actually, uh, helping the, uh, Main Street kitchen folks. They recently open their restaurant. Oh, yeah, how's it, how's it doing? I like those people. How it going? Yeah, it's doing pretty well. I'm actually trying to help him with some uh a circulator issue they have in terms of um being able to do some 64 degree fee eggs in 60
+
+[48:18] minutes. Uh, and I was wondering, uh, in terms of uh, capacity of being able to,
+
+[48:23] say, run one circulator, and um, I'm wondering how many eggs you could run to be able to meet that 60 minute limit if we do the preheat. You're doing a 64? Yeah. Okay. I mean, the good news on 64 is it's a lot easier to hit 64 than it is to hit
+
+[48:42] 63, right? So the 2 E, the 2 E, like the easiest one is 62, because you don't need to ever get the center up to 62. 64, you need to get it at 64, but if it goes a little bit over, like
+
+[48:56] 210s, 310s is not a big deal. But why do you only have one hour to do it? Um, in terms of just being able to understand the uh, the turn time and and be able to prep for service and that's typically what they're used
+
+[49:13] to. So, I guess, um, the better question would be, you know, trying to maximize the amount of eggs for one circulator, uh, in a certain
+
+[49:23] duration. Yeah, I mean, I guess that. Yeah, go ahead. So I guess that's kind of, basically, I want to be able to maximize, you know, 3 foot of eggs in a set amount of time. Right. So, so what I had noticed is that, you know, they were doing, they were trying to do
+
+[49:40] 60 minute eggs, and they were doing, um, and they were telling me that it was, it was taking a little bit longer than they expected, and basically what I determined is that, uh, they weren't preheating
+
+[49:51] in the water, uh, higher than, than, so what would happen is that they'd have to wait, um, for 60 eggs, they had to wait 20 minutes for recovery to get back to 64.
+
+[50:00] Yeah, and 64, you need to be at 64 to get a 64. So, I mean, a trick that, you know, uh, that a lot of people do is, uh, especially if you're doing something like a
+
+[50:12] creme anglaise, it's really high temperature for a circulator, like, you know, 80, 82. Uh, they, they, they'll set it to 85. Drop the stuff in and within a couple of seconds, it drops down. So you can, like, overheat the water, you have to figure out kind of, you have to do a lot of, you have to do
+
+[50:32] some, some checking, some math. I mean, it doesn't take that long to overcook the white on the inside. So it's can be a little problematic, you know, ramping the temperature high enough to really get back fast enough.
+
+[50:42] Another thing you can do is, 1st of all, when you're cooking eggs to a specific temperature like 64. Uh, it's, again, that's harder than 62 but easier than 63 in terms of difficulty, not in terms of the texture.
+
+[50:56] You have to make sure that the eggs aren't piled such that the eggs in the very center aren't getting proper water circulation around
+
+[51:04] them, or it's just not going to be cooked right. So one of the things that's going to limit the amount of eggs that you can cook is how many layers you can
+
+[51:13] fit where you get water circulation between all the layers of eggs. Like, that's critical, right? to get water circulation between all the layers of eggs, if you want them all to cook at the same rate. The 2nd thing you can do, and this is, I've done this before, is you just keep a pot of boiling water near the eggs, and then you just add boiling water by the, you know, by
+
+[51:35] the, you know, like, you know, panful, and tell, because that will level out right away, and you can get a sense for kind of how long it takes you to get back
+
+[51:45] up and you can bail water out. And then if you go over, you can throw a couple of ice cubes in. And you should be able to stabilize the temperature within like three,
+
+[51:53] 4 minutes. You know what I mean? If you have boiling water, you should be able to get a fairly stable temperature within three, four minutes. Now, as to how many I've ever done at once with one circulator. Usually what I'll, what I'll do is, I mean, I've, I've done 62s in very non-ideal circumstances where I've done like a 100, you know, or more in one
+
+[52:13] shot. It's not ideal, but with 62, you can get away with it. With 64. I don't know if you could really get away with that. I mean, I would probably say maybe, maybe, let's see, a flat is what, 36 in a flat? Is that right? No, 20 what's in a flat? Six by six, 36, one, two, three flat. Yeah, you could probably do 3 flats. Probably. But, you know, the, the, um, the other thing you can really do, and it makes, could make your life a lot easier is to, uh, just, you know, run a cycle and then chill them down, run a cycle, chill them down, and then just
+
+[52:51] retherm them all at service temps, retherm them at like 50, 55, 50, 56. and then you can just keep them around. There's no need to cook them all at once. If you if you actually have the time, you can cook them beforehand and then therm them up for service.
+
+[53:07] And they only need like 30, 35, 40 minutes at 55 to
+
+[53:12] retherm enough for service, and then they can hold at a temperature that low at like 55, 56, even up to
+
+[53:19] 57, really, they can hold for, you know, hours and hours and hours and
+
+[53:24] hours. They're not going to, they're not going to change their texture at that temperature. You know what I mean? And that might be a good solution for them. Okay. Um, so I had kind of a follow question because in terms of the circulation. I was thinking about building, uh, say, a custom basket to be able to get the circulation you need, you know,
+
+[53:43] basically, like wire snacks, and I was wondering, um, you know, how effective do you think that would be, as well as, um, what do I need to keep in mind, um, in terms of, you know, keeping it, um, food safe and
+
+[53:56] not, You know, if I wanted to get materials, you know, what would you suggest that would best suit that? Well, I mean, you're going to make it out of what, at a metal, out of stainless? Yeah, I was thinking stainless. Um, you know, I'm not sure I was gonna maybe try to, you know, maybe throw some fire baskets in, something of that nature and stack some,
+
+[54:14] um, you know, wire racks in between somehow. fryer baskets rust like a demon. Uh, in my, in, in my, uh, experience. They're not as stainless as you would like them to be. I think a lot of them are actually just chromed over. You know what I mean? And so, like, they they tend to rust. And even most cooking grates that are supposedly stainless, like they rust out in the cirque over a long period of time. But, you know, uh, you know, they might last uh, a while. If I was gonna do full custom job, I would do, I would do stainless or, I mean, I would do stainless. The other alternative would be acrylic or polycarb because you're not cooking at that high a temperature and you're not using alcohol. I mean, if you're not, if you're not a believer in polycarb, because you're worried
+
+[55:03] about, um, things leeching out, if someone cooks, if someone cleans it with detergents and starts breaking down the polycarbonate, you could go with acrylic,
+
+[55:10] acrylic's easy because you can laser cut acrylic. So if you can build something that way, but it's going to be heavier and more fragile. I mean, stainless is kind of ideal, like wirework stainless, but then you have to find someone who could do the wirework stainless for you. You could make something with fryer baskets, but when people load eggs into fryer baskets, they tend to glom together in the
+
+[55:26] middle, and then the ones in the middle are going to have problems. What no one's really built that would be super sweet is something that mimics a flat of eggs, but it's just made out of like empty wire and then holds the eggs and then has a way to stack the next flat on top of it so that
+
+[55:40] the every egg is in its own little cage. That would be freaking genius. Like, I would buy that. Like if you made that, I would buy that. In fact, I should make that if you don't make it. you're not going to make it, I'll make that. I won't because I don't have time, but I'm saying like I would buy that. Wouldn't you buy that, Piper? Yeah, we'll get some coat hangers and rubber bands. Oh, geez. Oh my god. No, but like, but the thing is, like, you want to fit it into, like, you don't want to be using a full-size Lexand for that. You want to fit it in the half size Lexan, right? Because, you know, anytime you cook enough eggs where you need a full-size Lexan, your recovery time is going to be ridiculous. So I would build something to maximize the tall half, the half Lex hands is what I would go for. Yeah, is Teflon something that you can use or no? Teflon? Good luck. Teflon is, 1st of all, extremely expensive. Uh, you know, it's kind of flexible. It's impossible to join. So you have to do everything with screw fasteners and like, I've never machined Teflon, but I don't know how easy it is to machine. It's really expensive, man. Really? Yeah, I wouldn't play the Teflon game. Okay. And then in terms of, uh, just a quick final one, um, in terms of watching circulation, I I post to you about putting glitter in the in the water and you said that was the pain in the ass to clean, is it doable? Yeah. You have other suggestions to be able to watch situation and make sure that it's working properly. I mean, like, you could just throw one or 2 floaty craps into it and just watch them go around.
+
+[57:10] You know what I mean? Like, and because you, that always happens anyway. In fact, like, I'm always like, what the hell found in my, in the, in this bath, and then you have to like kind of scoop it out, and you can get a good feeling for, for what's going on. But literally like one or 2 little thingamajigs in there is enough to see kind of how the flow works. You can dump. I mean, look, Piper, what would you want to dump in if you were going to dump something that you had to recover later? It's got to be big enough so it's not going to get sucked into your circulator. Or small enough that it can get sucked through without a problem. I'll never forget the time that I didn't cheesecloth my circulator and I did, like, I threw the woodchips in to do the woodchip circulator to get the flavor of the woods. Oh my goodness. Oh my god, it's such a nightmare. Oh, such a free nightmare. But the oil was good. I mean, that's a good technique. Circulating, uh, charred, uh, charred wood chips in oil for an oil poach. I mean, it's good technique. But, yeah, but it's, but it was a pain to clean out, let me tell you. Okay, well, that answers all my questions. Thanks for everything and keep up the good work. Thanks, thanks. Happy Thanksgiving. All right, we, uh, actually, we have to, we have to go out now, but, uh, Elliot Elliot Papineau wrote in, uh, on the Twitter. Can you debunk some stock mythology because in New York Times just did something on turkey stock. I don't have time to go into all of it now because they're going to kick us off. Maybe we'll do some of it on the Twitter later on, but turkey stock is, is that the only Thanksgiving question we've had? Anyway, should you cook? We'll just handle this one. Should you cook your stock covered or uncovered? And I'm going to go ahead and say that the only reason to cook a stock uncovered is so that you don't have the problem of it going to a rolling boil without you noticing it,
+
+[58:54] right? Otherwise, you would want to keep it covered because that's going to keep the aromatics in more. Piper, agree or disagree. Yeah. So like once you get the thing set and you can ensure that you're not going to get a rolling boil in it, there's no
+
+[59:07] dang point. Well, the other thing is, like, a lot of people, when we're, when you, when you, let's say you were at the French Culinary Institute, which you were, Piper, right? So when they taught you how to make stocks in the French culinary Institute, what do they do that I hate? Well, I mean, they made an enormous amount at a time. Yeah. And they, and they, the bones, the bones and meat to water ratio is, in my opinion,
+
+[59:29] weigh the hell off, right? They made a weak stock. I don't think I can come out on the radio and say that. No, no, I don't mean it in a bad way. would then reduce it later. Yeah, they would always make a higher water volume and then reduce it later. Yeah, I'm much more from the James Peterson school. Great. People still read that stuff? He's a great cookbook writer. From his school, which is, you know, don't overwater it to begin with to minimize the amount of reduction you have to do later. And that's the kind of the school of thought I'm in. So if you're starting with a high water content and you're doing a stock where you're cooking it for a long time, and
+
+[1:00:03] frankly, I don't think turkey stock needs to be cooked that long, like you do like the old ones that just don't. I think a lot of people spend way too much time cooking their poultry stocks. Um, you should really use a pressure cooker anyway. So I think they overwater it and then let it reduce some as it's cooking in the pop. I think that's useless, unnecessary. Just add the amount of water that you want and then cover it and sure it doesn't go to a boiling boil. And the reason you don't want to roll and boil is you don't want to emulsify the oils into it as it's going and cause it to get cloudier, which doesn't make a damn bit
+
+[1:00:30] of difference if you're going to make a gravy out of it, frankly. Right? Well, they also let it rip overnight, too. So they, yeah, so they want, Yeah, which you're not going to do at home. Whatever. I think you can cover it. That's my feeling Cover it. Then reduce it later if you want to. Yeah, David. Happy Thanksgiving. Cooking your shoes.
+
+[1:00:55] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Underground Meats, an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information, visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Birth P3 and Brooke Wis... Bookwick. I wish it was bookwick. That would be awesome. Imagine this is just all bookstores out here. Yeah. But it would all be hipster books. Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245,
+
+[0:50] joined as usual. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, no Piper today. Piper is working on the Sears all project, which is fully funded.
+
+[0:59] Joined also, although, listen, people, I gotta be honest with you. Like, that's the, that's the goal we set, but, uh, Stas, tell him, tell him the sad
+
+[1:08] truth. If we only make our goal, what happens? We barely break even. Not even though. It's not about breaking even though. about getting Sears alls to people. But, uh, we got some exciting news, uh, on the Sears. talk a little bit later about some things that we're going to add to stretch
+
+[1:23] goals, maybe later today, some ideas that we're working on for it, in case you people care. And for those of you that don't know about the Searzole, the Searzole is now definitely going to happen because our Kickstarter was fun, go on Kickstarter and look at it if you haven't
+
+[1:33] already. It's an attachment that turns an ordinary torch into a powerful handheld broiler that can finish all kinds of low temperature.
+
+[1:42] In fact, I would go so far as to say that, especially if you're at home and you don't own a deck boiler. If you own a circulator, you should probably own a seers all, right? Yeah. Joined in the studio with Jack and Joe today. How you guys doing? We're good. We got Evan here too. New engineer. Hey, Evan, how you doing? How you enjoying this show? It's fantastic. I haven't really said anything else. It's nice though. nice. See, he's like, stop, you know, like if Nastasia was an engineer. She'd be like, man, I don't really know. I'm not paying attention. I don't care. That's what she would say, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. I guess that's why she doesn't have that job, though. Well, he's in the honeymoon period, so. Oh great. Okay, uh, a little update. Quick from Tom Fisher's the ongoing saga of Tom Fisher's eggnog, it's been aging. By the way, stars, our eggnog's been aging, right? Yeah, we tried it yesterday. Hey, thanks for letting me have taste. But listen, In fact, I was. You could have given me a taste when we were loading out. anyway. Uh, the, uh, I'm also, I probably ruined the eggnogs. I said I was going to bring in nutmeg and I didn't. Okay. Yeah? Why are you not a huge fan of like that? No, we can do it later. Yeah, but do you like a lot of nutmeg or no? Yeah I So how was how was your stuff? It was good. Just a little skim coat. was good. No, was yours better or Piper's better? We threw his out. Oh, boom. As soon as Piper is like away working. You like talk about his eggnog, like it's garbage. No, he said, we had to clean out the fridge yesterday. And I said, what about this? And he said, it's garbage about his own egg, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we can't talk crap about Piper on the show because as he says, my mom listens to this show, which I don't think she does. They don't have internet TV yet. He's just trying to make us feel bad. It's like classic like salty sailor Piper talk there, right? Yeah. Yeah, makes no sense. You know what I mean? Yes? It might be a good show on Heritage Radio, Salty Sailor Piper talk. Yeah, except for the fact is, is like he would just stare the microphone down. Like you have to talk into it, Piper, because the people on the other side can't see you just
+
+[3:41] staring, glaring at the microphone. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Anyways. So, anyway, so back to Tom Fishers. For those of you that didn't hear the other episode. You want to talk about the MoFad event first? Well, let me finish the Tom Fisher thing. I can't believe, like, I'm actually trying to be on task for
+
+[3:57] once, and you're, like, trying to throw me tangents. Learn Hans. We do that in a sec. Oh, and by the way, we have in the now, see, now in my brain, it's on a tangent. Thanks. We have some actual underground meets in the studio with us today that Stas and I are going to start tasting during the break and then continue tasting after the break and talk about it. very excited about that. Anyway, back to Tom Fisher's eggnog. those of you that don't remember. Thomas was making an aged eggnog, and we talked about the safety of it, and then whether or not it would thicken up. In fact, it has thickened. An update on the aged eggnog from a few weeks back, as the recipe indicated is thickened and turned from an off-white to a slightly beige color. Was yours also beige? You know, Booker, my son, has to wear a uniform to school every day, like, and it's this year it's maroon and khakis. And if you don't wear a uniform, you get detention, right? Which frightens him because he, like, he takes a bus home and he's worried he's going to miss the bus and he's like extremely nervous about this sort of thing. Uh, anyhow, so he calls khakis kahakis.
+
+[4:57] He's like, are these kahakis? I don't want detention. I'm like, yes, yes, booker, those are kahakis. Anyway, so slightly beige color. However, milk fat is separated from the eggnog and floated to the surface. It looks an axe and tastes very much like the thickened cheese-like milk fat that rises to the top of unhomogenized milk. Should I strain it off and move on, or is there something nasty going on here? There are no odd smells or taste. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving, Tom Fisher. Tom, dude, don't strain that sucker off. Whisk that fat back in, baby. You want the fat in the egg. like, did you get a crap on top? No. Well, if you had, when you whisked it back in. Yeah, you missed the you missed the important 3rd choice there, Tom, stir that stuff back in. Uh, you know, it's interesting. I don't know why it destabilized and whatever. Just start it back in. I sure it's delicious. I did have an okay thing. Is this our 1st one thing since Thanksgiving? Wow, it seems like so long ago. How was your Thanksgiving stuff? Good, it was good. I saw you posted like the entire family, searing on the stairs. I loved it. Yeah? Yeah they really loved it. Yeah, I liked it. There was a picture that Nastasia sent me of her mom using the series all, and then the caption, which not shareable in public of what she was shouting while she was
+
+[6:05] using unrelated to series all, by the way. Like, completely like, like a diatribe, completely unrelated to the actual scene. No, it was because my dad was like, you need to hold it close. You need to hold it close. And then she was like, She like went off? I love it. can you can you share any of it with us? No. No, you know what she did her famous FU speech. You know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree on this one. And one thing I've learned that Piper, somehow, is not for years working with you, is like when you're using the series,
+
+[6:32] all, like trying to give you pointers. I'm like, Piper, are you a dunce? Like, you don't you don't tell Nastasia how to use the sears all while she's using it, right? That's a non-start. It's a non-starting, non-starting thing. By the way, do we have Pierre on the phone yet? We do? Oh, awesome. So, uh, let's get Pier on the phone. We're joined via phone today. good friend of ours, Pierre Cham, who is a chef here in New
+
+[6:57] York, and also, you know, from originally from Senegal, has what I think is the only, at least the only, you know, one that I know of that's, you know, good Senegalese cookbook in English on the market here in the US.
+
+[7:15] It's an excellent book. It's also beautiful. The pictures are beautiful. And having gone to center. He's the chef who sponsored the trip that we went over to Senegal, which was a fantastic trip. Um, and anyway, Pierre, uh, glad to have you on the show. How you doing? Hey, babe, I'm well. Yeah, good, good. By the way, you know, I was reading, I had a, the reason I called you today is we had a question regarding TB Jen coming in. And so I figured, which, by the way, for those of you that don't know, like, it's kind of the national dish of Senegal, wouldn't you say, Pierre?
+
+[7:47] It is the national dish. You want to describe it really quickly for the folks? Uh, is the wall of wood that translates simply
+
+[7:56] right and fish, but it's a little more complex than that. It's um, I would say, it's kind of a version of a paella, you know, if you go to the north of
+
+[8:07] Senegal. That's where you see some of the seafood involved with it, but the simple
+
+[8:11] tube is really a fish, firm, white flesh
+
+[8:16] fish, could be a group, uh, could be a snapper. Sometimes bluefish, you know, it depends, and it's stuffed with parsley mixture. The fish and stuff is the firstly mixed, and it's cooked in a broth, that has tomatoes, and all the vegetables that are cooked, that comes with cheese, which must be root vegetables,
+
+[8:35] tasava, yucca, sweet potatoes, cabbage, and um,
+
+[8:39] okra, and then the, that same broth, we cook rice in it. So the rice is cooked in that slow red tomato broth and it comes with the rice comes out right red. That's why I was making the connection with fire. So um, that's basically what it is. You have a rice, red rice, the fish that's stuffed with probably a puffy mixture, and the broth that has a cooked, all the root vegetables and the fish, and it finishes with
+
+[9:10] a, it's such a tamarine actually. So it has a, uh, uh, uh, sweet and sour end to the to the whole, to the whole dish. Right, but they also, like, the characteristic. Like when you go to Senegal, right? what's amazing is the different kinds of fermented products. Right. The gadge, without the gadge, you don't have yourself to the gen, right? No, no, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. You're getting deep there, but you're right. The gadget is a big component of the jibijon. When you cook that broth. You add the gadget to it, and um, and the, the gadget in the, in the, in
+
+[9:52] the tomato broth that I mentioned, and uh, the yet as well, another uh, fermented conch. The gadget is a semantic fish, and the yet is a semantic conch. And both of these add that to money flavor to the
+
+[10:05] chicken, and that's very, very important. You just put a small portion of the dead because it's very, very important and very, very strong. So that's, that's what
+
+[10:14] makes that, uh, fomantic flavor to the chicken. Right, it's potent and strong. And for people who aren't used to it, it's, you know, they're like a little freaked out by the aroma, but the stuff is straight up delicious. The yet, especially, I mean, the gadge, you, I guess you can eat the chunks straight a lot, but
+
+[10:30] yet, I can eat that after it's been like braised. I can just eat it a lot of it. It's good. I love it. It's, you know, it's not quite a taste for some people, but I mean, you and I, we, we really are adventurous, and I love the gadget, the yet, you know, it's, it's hard that chewiness, but it's also tormented,
+
+[10:48] so it, it breaks quite easy. If it's cooked for a long time, it, it, it breaks and diges very easily. It's delicious. I love it. I mean, another, before we get to the actual question, since, you know, we have you on the phone, we don't get to have you on the phone very often. There's a lot of spices over there that I think have, uh, so, I mean, obviously, uh, you know, yet
+
+[11:07] engage are not uh, vegetarian, but there's a lot of fermented products in uh, in Senegalese food that are really, really, really good for vegetarian
+
+[11:20] cooking that have not become popular with chefs over here. And I think the one that strikes pops right into my head right away is Netudu. Yes, absolutely. Neta 2 is actually it's a locust, uh, from a tree, right? It's not a look at an animal. it's like a leg room pod from a tree, yeah. Exactly. A leg room from a tree that's allowed to throw men. Uh, we call it neteu, but the fruit itself is called nere. And after the fermentation process, that becomes made too. And uh, and also it's a, it's, it's an amazing flavor. It's very popular throughout West Africa. Not only in Senegal, but you see it in, in, in Mali, in Guinea, even in Nigeria, and that's
+
+[12:03] uh, you know, it comes with different names, but that's the same exact uh, uh, legume, and it's good for vegetarian. There's no, no, no, no animal in it. Yeah, and I mean, in rice dishes, in broths. It can all of a sudden, you know how like a lot of times vegetarian rice dish. It sometimes difficult to get the kind of power, flavor, and umami you want, nectitude, bang. Delicious, right? It's amazing. You know, even, you know, the, uh, one way to pretend that I particularly like is in the south of synagogue in Kazamas, which next time we definitely have to make it to that part of Senegal. next time you go to synagogue. But you know how they cook it? They cook the rice, you know, just the simple rice, rice, let's say, and at the end of the cooking process, when the water has evaporated, you open your path, you cover the cover of the rice, and you, you dig a hole in the middle of the rice, and that's needed to, which you have mixed with onion to make it, uh, you know, a grated onion to make it into a bowl, a liquid, uh, uh,
+
+[13:06] a thick paste. And that thick is just buried in inside the right and you just close it back and you allow it to sit there for like 10 minutes. No fire. Just tell me the right steaming, with that native to that native to ball. Do you picture the what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah. Very, very simple, but... Does it perfume the whole thing? Does it perfume the whole thing? Yeah, it perfumes the whole thing. It's the, and the native to board itself has that, uh, very, very flavorful
+
+[13:39] rice slush, so many. It's just an amazing, it's really difficult to describe, you have to take it very, it's delicious. Could you do it in a rice cooker? Oh, yes, absolutely. You can do it in the right cooker. Again, once the water has evaporated, you just dig a hole in the right, in the middle of the right, and you put that bowl of meta 2 that you mix with, with onion, just simply knit it to an, onion, you can add some chili pepper to bring some
+
+[14:04] heat with, but you make a small bowl, you know, the size of a, that kind of, half of
+
+[14:08] a fish, and you put it in the middle of the right, and, and you close it back. Do you use the powdered net to the seeds or the whole pods? The powder knitted too is fine. The whole part is fine, but the powdered native, which is easier to have here in New York, you know, in the African market. And that's all you use. The pardon, that's why you add the onions, because the onions bring that,
+
+[14:29] the, the, the, the, the juice of the onion would make it into a paste, into, you know, and
+
+[14:33] the, and the paste. You can for shape it into a bowl and that little bowl is what you what you put into the rice. Right. And for people who go out and I hope they do go to, you know, find local African markets and buy the netitude. Do not judge, do not judge what's going to happen to the food you cook based on the initial dry smell of the net to do. It's totally different once it's cooked. Completely, completely. Yeah, that would, that would not, I mean, don't smell it, I guess. That would turn you off. you know, it's very strong, like I say, it's very, very important. But David, you tasted it and you know the difference. It's a, it's a drastic difference. It brings so much flavor to you. any dish, any dish, vegetarian dishes, you'd feel like, you know, you, you haven't had anything vegetarian before because it's
+
+[15:22] freaking vegetarian, but it's so much, so much flavor again, so much tape. Another thing over there that I thought was really interesting was that you, I don't even know the name of it, but these fermented onion balls, these
+
+[15:33] dried, fermented onion balls, that are like, they look like kind of crushed. They look like just chopped up onions and balls and fermented. We bought them in a market. Yeah, and they, you know what, they, that's the one, they add submitted to it. The fermented. Are we talking about the ones, it's already shaped, right? In a bolo? Yeah, it's already shaped in a ball and dried. So it's very similar to what you're saying, just a dried version of it. Exactly. Yep, yep, yep, exactly. Those are delicious. It's great. It's delicious. Yes. I'm glad you remember those. They're amazing. They're really amazing. I didn't know they had the net 2 in it already. Yeah, that stuff is great. It's amazing. Another spice that you don't get over here very often that's more specialized for the
+
+[16:15] Cafe Tuba, although I'm thinking I'm trying to get that on the menu at Booker and Dax at the bar is the,
+
+[16:21] and here's another thing, like, wool-off words are impossible for English, you know, American English people to pronounce.
+
+[16:27] I literally sat there for about 10 minutes with the seller. this, trying to pronounce the spice. And I would think I was saying exactly what he was saying, but I wasn't Jer. I can't pronounce it. So like, jit. How do you say it in real life? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and no, they're like, John? He's like, no, no, no. John. Yeah, yeah, I can't get it. It's impossible to get. It's funny. Yeah, you should, you should, I, I can definitely taste your
+
+[16:58] cupcare as a book and that's with, with, with that spices, yeah. I, I, I, I, remember, I knew that she came to the festival with us. Yeah, we were talking about a needle low, by the way, folks. Really amazing chef here in New York. Go ahead. Yeah, she had a special vagina at her restaurant for quite some time. It was very popular. She made a salad with it with beet and goat cheese. Very, very creative, and cocoa, cocoa powder too. I was amazed by the flavor. Well, the interesting thing about it is it's got a lot of notes of, it's got some peppery notes, but it also has some more resony notes and it's almost some, like, a kind of, almost, I don't know, cardamomine notes and resony notes,
+
+[17:38] but it's not at all, like, and people confuse it. It's not at all like what we call Bolognese long peppers. It's totally different. totally different flavor. Um, and I read in English that uh, the translation into English is, get this one, Pierre, grains of Selim, but I don't know if that's true or
+
+[17:59] false because... Oh, you know what? That's the 1st time I heard about it, I neither, actually, she mentioned that when she was trying to translate it on her menu. She did say Venos, but I didn't know that, you know, I really didn't know, and just, I didn't know that's why it was called in English. But you know, maybe. It's called that in English maybe, but no one uses it in English speaking country. So there's no point. I think it's much better to try and use the Woloff word. The problem is none of us can pronounce it properly. Uh, but, you know, they they use it there in, in the, in the cafe tuba, which is a great, you know, a great and very distinctive kind of
+
+[18:33] Senegalese, uh, drink, uh, the Morids, uh, you know, this Sufi brotherhood, which by the way, they're extremely, uh, they, they're like, why
+
+[18:43] you want to talk about the, man, it's not really food, but give me, give me a couple words on the Morids. Oh, me? Oh, you're talking about the movie, the movie that, like, uh, Sushi Brotherhood, like you say, Seneganese Muslims, uh, mostly from 2 families, and they also feel, um, you don't really have the traditional, sweetly soon in Senegal, and that's also one of the reasons why the, the country is very tolerant, because, uh, you know, they, they transcend the, the strictly Orthodox uh, part of Islam, as you, you probably
+
+[19:17] not when you were in Senegal, you know, it's pretty, you know, it doesn't strike to you, strike you as like this strict Muslim country. It's a, it's a 90% Muslim country, but most of them, uh,
+
+[19:29] Sufi, you know, so they, they are very tolerant of other religions, you know, uh, you know, it's equal to, uh, uh, a lake country, it's not an Islamic country,
+
+[19:38] so, so you can, you have your drinks, you can have your, you know, the, the brows are open. You know, uh, to make a long story short, the movie, uh,
+
+[19:48] following, uh, uh, uh, a man called Amadubamba, who, who came to Senegal during the colonial time, and he had a Pacific type of resistance, could be compared to,
+
+[20:00] uh, to Gandhi, in India, for instance. And uh, and uh, they, they, they, they're growing. They're becoming, they probably are right now the, the largest Sufi group in the country, they're very powerful. They self-reliable, they, they, they very entrepreneurial, you know, you see a lot of movies traveling the world, you see, many of the people you see, the Senegalese, you see selling in the streets of New York City or Hong Kong or Paris, uh, mostly Murray, and they, they, you know, they, they,
+
+[20:30] uh, that's uh, like I said, entrepreneurial group, and this coffee that we're talking about the drink that we're talking about, is called
+
+[20:37] Cafe Tuba, and Tuba is the name of the, the holy city of the movie. You know, that's a city that's a couple of hours from Daka. The Maurits believe that tuba is, is going to tuba is as good as going to, to the, to Mecca. you know, the more we go to tuba. They don't go to Meca and Pedrimage, for instance. Um, so basically that's uh, you know, in 2 minutes, that's what
+
+[21:01] to move. And our question, by the way, to get back to the question, if someone answered the reason that we're on the
+
+[21:07] phone together, they're going to be talking about rice. Now, yeah, as we said, Tibagen is rice and fish, rice incredibly important to it. Usually it typically would have been made back in the day with broken rice, right? To thicken it up, you know? Oh, it is still made with broken rice. But you can make it with, with, you know, with regular jasmine, right? So that's not you, right? But he said, like, uh, the, the, the 2 chair, we journey with broken rights, yes. Right. So that's going to release some of the starch in while it's cooking, which is going to be important for the thing that's coming up. But before I get into the question, um, so for those of you that don't know kind of Senegalese geography at all, the
+
+[21:45] Cosimans is in the south, right? And, uh, and, you know, what Pierre was saying, the kind of the heart of
+
+[21:51] Tibigen is in San Luis, which is in the very north on the river, right? Yes, correct. So, uh, or not in the, or it's, well, it's in the northern part anyway, right? San Luis North. Yeah, yeah, you need the by the river, you're right, you're right about that. So, um, So the point is, is that in Kazimans, what a lot of people don't think about is that the original rice of Kazimans is not Asian rice. The original rice of cosmonts is a globarima rice, which was actually domesticated in Africa.
+
+[22:27] And I think probably in Senegal and Gambia, right? I mean that's originally where it comes from. Now, those rice have been even locally, except for in small areas, completely replaced, unfortunately, with Asian rice, correct or not correct?
+
+[22:44] That's correct, yeah. Now, would Tibo Jen originally been made with the Glaborima or
+
+[22:49] would, or is that, in other words, do they, would they also have had the Glaborima up in San Luis or would it always there have been made with the Asian
+
+[22:57] rice? No, no, no. It was always the glabarina until anti-colonial time until we started to import rice that originally came from the other part of the French colonial empire, like the whole Vietnam
+
+[23:10] region, and now our right is unfortunately imported. I think, unfortunately, because people prefer to import rights rather than using the local. And
+
+[23:18] it's been for, it bought it from, from Indonesia and, you know, Southeast Asia.
+
+[23:23] But, uh, originally, no, the rights came from, from Kazamas, from the, the same region, because it wasn't only Kazamas and Gambia, but, you know, you had the
+
+[23:31] Glagarima, is also in Guinea, in Sierra Leone, in, in Liberia. It was the African rice, you know, and that rice is as ancient as, as far
+
+[23:41] as, uh, you know, um, anthropologist or concern, as I mentioned, as the Asian
+
+[23:45] rights. So, you know, so we have 2 families, 2 major families of
+
+[23:50] rights, the African, right? And the Southeast Asian, right? Right. That came about same time. You know, I don't remember, because we didn't, like, we didn't get to go to Cosmons when I went there, but I don't know that we even had Glabarima when we were over there, did we? I, I thought we probably didn't know. We didn't have glabrima because again, like I said, the whole northern part of Senegal is, is, is, is, is eating imported rice. Remember, one of the reasons why we, we, we had this event is to, we just promote local cuisine and to, and to, to, to showcase what we really
+
+[24:26] have, and and, and, and to change the, the, the, the, the people way of thinking that when it comes from
+
+[24:32] elsewhere, it's better than what we have. at home and that's unfortunately the case in in in many of the cities in Africa, you know, we import a lot of our food and and, and the local goods are eaten by the, in the country, by, by the, you know, the rural area, but in the urban areas, people think it's best to, or to import, food from, from, from elsewhere, and uh, and the, the Asian rice, is, is very, very popular in the northern part of Senegal, in Seneg, in St. Louis, in Dhaka. and
+
+[25:04] it's going competing with the, the tradition of the glabarina, the glabarima is still being grown in a very artisanal way, so it's not industrial. It just comes a few months out of the year, like a couple months when the harvest comes, and then, you know, it's finished. But it's, it's, uh, you know, it's changing gradually, now it's people, uh, people are realizing that not only, you know, is
+
+[25:28] healthier, right? But it has another flavor that we, unfortunately, you didn't get to experience when we were there. I'm trying to find a way to bring some blabber here in New York and we will definitely have a there to be. Yeah sure. You know, get New Yorkers like me to pay a premium for it, and then maybe it'll get more respected where it comes from, except for then you might have
+
+[25:50] the whatever, when I was over there, everyone was talking about the quinoa problem. You make something that's popular and then all of a sudden the people who make it and rely on it can no longer afford it. So it's very hard to win. You know what I mean? It's hard to win, but you know, that's a good problem to have, hopefully, the quinoa experience will help us deal with, you know, with that problem before it occurs.
+
+[26:11] But it's really something we need to, to, to, to work on because that would be so unfortunate to, to have, you know, cities like
+
+[26:20] this disappear. Because of, you know, competition. They, they great disease. All right, so listen, we have a caller who's, we're going to, we're going to take them together, Pierre, whoever the
+
+[26:30] color's going to ask, but then after that, before we go to break, we're going to get to the question, which is about the crispy rice at the bottom of the tibu
+
+[26:36] Jen. someone wants to know how to make it. And so I figure the best way is to get a official Senegalese cook on
+
+[26:44] the on the right. caller, you're on the air. Hey? Yeah, I have a couple questions on low time cooking. Oh, sure. Specifically, I have a few friends that are pregnant, and I'm wondering about
+
+[26:57] trade-offs and cooking to pasteurize or being safe when cooking for people that are pregnant,
+
+[27:03] and, you know, balancing for like fish, beef and chicken, against, you know, texture and quality. Yeah. Um, and then also wondering about, you know, storage guidelines for, uh, low time cooking, so without a vacuum. Right. So when I'm cooking for uh, pregnant people with a circulator, which I have a lot, um, when you're cooking eggs for Benedicts, just cook them at 62 for a full hour and they're good.
+
+[27:29] You're safe. When you're doing any other meat cuts, I go to pasteurization temperatures.
+
+[27:36] So like for 55 degree steak, you're going to want to let it go for probably, I mean, it's overkill, but once the core reaches the
+
+[27:47] temperature like 120 minutes or something like that, that's actually overkill, but I like to overkill when I'm dealing with
+
+[27:52] this because you don't want it to be your fault. So it's gonna take, you sear the, you sear the outside. Uh, you know, you, and then you cook it. Um, it'll, you know, a normal size rib steak will probably start its, uh, kill, uh, kill stuff within, uh, at the center will start killing within, probably, you know, 40 minutes or
+
+[28:11] so, and then, uh, after it reaches that killing stage, you hold it for the
+
+[28:16] 120. For this kind of a thing, I really recommend getting one of the iPhone or iPad apps like
+
+[28:22] sous vide dashboard or, you know, the poly-science one because they're good at just figuring out exactly based on the thickness, like how long it's going to take to get to a temperature. When it comes to fish, fish is kind of a pain in the butt. It's impossible to pasteurize most fishes and still have them taste good. Fishes, fish. Uh, and uh, so uh, ones that can tolerate it are the firm flesh whitefish. So stripers are good. Um, because you can cook a striper, you know, at 55, 56, 57. It may be firmer than you normally like to cook it, but it's still, it hasn't gone dry, and the meteor white fish like that are better when they're overcooked as opposed to,
+
+[28:59] uh, you know, overcooked, uh, you know, tuna is wretched, over, you know, overcooked salmon even at those temperatures is pretty wretched. But a striper can kind of put up with that sort of thing. So those things can be, um, those things can be done. The, if you don't have a vacuum, the question, you know, you putting it in a Ziploc, you know, it's hard for me to give actual guidelines for storage times, I'm always like when I'm cooking for someone, I'm kind of like just hyper about
+
+[29:28] it, when I'm cooking for pregnant or someone who's, you know, hospitalized or sick. So I tend not to store things for a long time unless I have to because I'm the only person that can cook for them and I only see them once a week and you should be okay for that, especially if they're doing a
+
+[29:41] retherm and if they do a retherm, they can do like a temporary retherm in like a really hot bath before they bring it up slowly
+
+[29:48] the temperature and you should be all right. Is that uh, answer the questions? Yeah, thank you. And I'm in 1st years all. And what? Oh, really cool. awesome. Oh, sweet, sweet. Well, enjoy it, enjoy it. We're gonna we'll talk more about it either later or next week about kind of some new uses we found
+
+[30:06] and where we are in the in the thing, but thanks so much for backing us. Have a good one. All right, thanks. All right, Pierre, here we are back on the, back on the rice in the Tiba Jen. Okay, so this word, which is wall off, which I will not attempt to pronounce, X-O-O, and then end with the Enya on it. do you say that? crispy rice at the bottom. Oh, you got you have to come from the from the back of your throat. Oh, no. It's close to the Spanish hotter, you know? Yeah. Oh, man, that's impossible. It's impossible gear. So to backtrack in case, you know, you're just joining in. So TV Jen, you take your rice, I mean, you take your fish, you slice it, you stuff it with like a herb mixture, you cook it a little bit with oil and onions,
+
+[30:58] then you make a broth, and then you put the rice in, you cook with tomato, you cook it with the
+
+[31:02] broth and the root vegetables. The rice soaks up the liquid, but in the bottom of the pot, you get this crispy, say that again. Oh, yeah. And for many people, this is their favorite part, yes? Oh, yes, it's a must, you know, perfect cube again. You have to have that golden crust, golden brown crust. From the bottom of the butt when you cook the cubion, it comes on the side. And uh, and that's, that's
+
+[31:30] right. It really is a great way to, to enjoy your, with and it adds texture to it. It has that crispy texture to the, to the, to the moist rice and I love it. I really love it. So much flavor. So give me the secrets. Is it the pot, the heat, the combination of the heat in the pot? Is it the oil that goes in the bottom? I mean, I'm sure the oil has something to do with it. But just tell us like the secrets to get a good one. Absolutely. Or, or, and the part, you know, when you, when you cook it, you start, when you start the chicken, then you start with the oil and the
+
+[32:02] tomatoes, right? You cook the oil and the tomatoes, allow it to cook slowly until the tomatoes are cooked. You know, you can use tomato and tomato paste, actually. And you allow it to cook slowly, slowly, until the tomato goes from red to, like, mini dark, red, almost black, but you don't want to burn it. You don't want to burn it, but as you cook it, if you see that it's starting to burn, add water a little bit at a
+
+[32:30] time, like a tablespoon to 2 tablespoons at a time. But slowly, you know, that's before you add your water, that's where to cook the rice and the vegetables and everything else. You have to cook only oil and tomato. Am I making sense here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So once you cook it to that point where the tomatoes are cooked and the sugar is released because you should
+
+[32:51] be releasing sugar, you realize there's a caramelization that's happening. That's why the tomatoes going from red to almost black, but not black. You don't want it to be burnt again. But that sugar is going to, a sugar combination of the sugar and the oil are going to be the, the, the, the, the, agent that will crystal
+
+[33:13] rice. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's, like a lot of cultures have this love of the crispy bottom of the, of the thing in Iranian cooking, you have that, you know, you know, they have the crispy stuff at the, at the bottom. Uh, you know, I think they they use binders like egg and yogurt in theirs, right? They cook it and then they do the egg and the yogurt. I forget it. It's been a long time since I've looked up the recipes for that stuff. And then also in South, South, you know, cooking of South Carolina on the old style, which probably is all from
+
+[33:42] West Africa anyway. Uh, you know, they have these crispy, uh, crispy casserole rice dishes. The difference is Tibu Jen is not turned out like a, like a, like a casserole dish. It's like, it's, it's scooped out of the pot and then the crust is served separately, right? It's presented on a platter. Yeah. It is for separate me, exactly. So separately. Or if you eat around in a ball, like we'd eat traditionally. It serves on the corner of the ball, you know, it comes on a platter, but, you know, they put it on the corner to to the people who will be eating the
+
+[34:14] crust because not everyone eats the crust. You know, we try to like, take it for, you know, the mature people. You don't give it to the kids, you give it to all the kids. So it's just the whole, the whole cultural thing behind, behind, you know, who's allowed to have part of that
+
+[34:27] club. Another interesting thing about the crust I'm wondering is that, you know, one of the strange things about, uh, about, uh, Senegal is cooking right now that, uh, you know, I just heard from, you know, listening to the, we went to a seminar about it, uh, is that people are using more and more oil, not for the taste, but just as a sign of being able to use more oil in
+
+[34:50] it. And do you think that's affecting the way that the crust is being formed in general
+
+[34:53] in the average tibu jan are affecting cooking in general in Senegal and the way things taste now versus the way they would have tasted, you know, 80, 100 years ago?
+
+[35:00] It is affecting. It is, it's affecting the way people Yeah, the way people are eating. For some reason, it is seen as a sign of, of wealth, you know? If the more oil you use, the more uh affluent you are. Uh that's something that came up. I believe, also again, in colonial time, then gradually, when peanut oil arrives, you know, peanut oil, at 1st was palm oil, for, you know, traditional palm food, or it was our, our, our oil of choice, and uh, and peanut oil became
+
+[35:35] something, uh, pretty, pretty popular with this year, you know, the French factories game, and they made peanut oil and peanut oil, so one of those, uh, you know, crops that were, uh, people don't
+
+[35:48] realize what peanut was, was imported to Senegal. It was not a traditional Senegalist from. You know, it came from the Americas, as a matter of fact. We had, we had something similar to peanut ground nuts, you know, but it wasn't, it wasn't as, uh, it wasn't used the way, you know, toilet
+
+[36:05] used right now. So anyway, it became a sign of affluent because again, you know, we wanted to be like the colonials, so, you know, uh, the colonials use that oil we use, the more we use, the more upluent we are, and
+
+[36:17] it came, it came into our, our recipes too, and now you see people using more peanut oil into their rice, and uh, it came, it also, it also brought some, some, some
+
+[36:30] diseases. Unfortunately, some diseases got imported with it. You see, um, diabetes, for instance, which wasn't part of our, you know, of the illnesses that
+
+[36:39] exist in Senegal. It's something that's very popular now because of that change of diet. You know, and the excess of sodium, all those things, uh, uh, uh, uh, affecting the, the, the, the, the, the population, uh,
+
+[36:54] the, unfortunately due to the change of diet again. But, um, to get back to your question with the oil, the crust and the oil, that's really,
+
+[37:04] the oil is very important to it, but it doesn't have to be in
+
+[37:08] excess. You know, it's important to have the 1st steps when you prepare that right. The oil and the tomato, studying the cooking process, has enough oil, but it shouldn't be uh, you know, more than uh, a couple tablespoons of, or, you know, for uh, a nice pot of rice, and you cook it slowly, again, cook it slowly, before you add once the tomatoes are cooked
+
+[37:33] nicely, caramelized, then you add your water, allow the water to boil, and then you add rice, and you cook, and you close the
+
+[37:40] right at that stage, and you just, Close it and lower the the the heat. You know, to a simmer, just like you would cook regular, right? And you forget about it now. Do not touch that part until all the water, all the juice that tomato broth has evaporated. Once it has evaporated. Still allow it to sit for a moment, and then you fluff your right, you redistribute the tomato, you have
+
+[38:07] your bright red, right, and you realize at the bottom of that butt, that crust, that coin that we're talking about, has formed, you know, so you pull out the right, and with the spool, so, uh, you know, you just take out the crust, you know, with, you know, it takes some, somewhere else strength to
+
+[38:25] eat, but you pull out the crust with, and just, Just rake the bottom of that part, and that's how you get the crust, you know, just allow it to cook slowly. First of all, just again, let the tomato cook and caramelize before you
+
+[38:39] otherwise, and then do not touch it. Do not stir it. Let the cross form in the bottom. Very, very, very, very simple process actually. All right, well, beautiful, Pierre. Pierre's book, which has a recipe for Tibajen is Yole, right? Yolele still available right now on Amazon. It's got, it's the only one available, right? The only one in English available, yes. And yeah. As a matter of fact, there's another book coming up next 4 to be working on it. It's still a, uh, the working title, Senegal from the source to the table. You'll hear about it. All right, well, come on the show and we'll push it. Absolutely, will. All right, thanks, Pierre. Thanks for talking, uh, talking cross, hone, hone. I can't pronounce it. Oh, no. on you. All right, we're going to take a commercial break and we'll be right back. Thanks, beer. Thanks, babe.
+
+[39:49] Underground Meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare. While underground meats uses European traditions, They also use ingredients from the upper Midwest to try to create new types of salamis, experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The salamis are made using heritage breeds, mostly red wattles, tamworts, Berkshires, and mule foots. Try their award-winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products visit shop.undergroundfoodcollective.org or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin.
+
+[40:49] And we're back. Welcome to cooking issues or welcome back to cooking issues. So, we're tasting the underground meats, and let me get this straight. The ones that they sent us are all, they're all goat, you said? Pretty sure it's all goat slami, right? Salumi. Goat loomy? And so we're tasting. What are we tasting here, Stas? That one is Pinocchio. You just had pepper. You things are good. These things are good. Now, for those of you that don't know, Underground Meats recently had a Kickstarter of their own. and they have successfully funded it, and they are now going to work on a Hasset plan so that they can get Hasset
+
+[41:32] certification. They can do challenge studies they get, and then everyone can use it. So look for these guys to help anyone listening, uh, to create
+
+[41:41] a, a hasset plan is going to allow them to, um, make their own salumi business without having to go through all the expense, which
+
+[41:50] one is this one? That one is goat salami, just goat salami. And then this one is Socion Sec. That goat salami is good business. What do you think? I haven't had any yet. She had to take out her gum. It's really good. Really good stuff. Alright. So, um, I mean, the obvious thing tasting it. I'm not gonna, like, torture you guys was sitting here eating. I'll wait until we're off mic toward interesting here eating delicious salami. You gave the web address, undergroundmeats.com. www.undergroundmeats.com. Is that good? Yeah. So anyway, so the point is that you taste it. It's, um, you know, most of them anyway, the ones that are tender are, um, low acid product, which means a lot of times when you're having a salumi, someone produces. They just try to, they jack the acidity right away to kill off anything that's in it and also kind of covers up faults in the meat and
+
+[42:54] faults in the curing, but from a very high acid kind of slime. You've had that happen before stuff, right? When you eat someone's slime plate, it's just super high acid. Lactic acid is. And these, you know, at least a lot of them from the ones I've tasted so far don't taste like super high acid. They're really taking a lot of care in
+
+[43:10] it. And you can tell that they really care about what they're doing. It's delicious product. Stas is no longer going to be listening because she's just pounding. No, you haven't had all of them. All right, all right. All right. Okay. Uh, oh, we should talk about, uh, we should talk We have only a couple minutes left, I guess. We should talk about the MoFat event. So MoFed, the museum of food and drink, uh, is doing its, so we have the puffing gun, which is kind of going underground right now. We're rejiguring it again to be able to take it to schools, hopefully after the winter break. They call it winter break now. winter break. Oh, by the way, if you're out there, uh, we don't actually have a way to send you a, uh, do you
+
+[43:49] know what I was realizing this on the Sears all, uh, on the thing that we're doing that, um, we said we were going to send people cards for
+
+[43:56] Christmas. We don't have their email addresses. They don't Kickstarter doesn't give you the email addresses until the Kickstarter is over. So I don't know how the heck we're going to do that. We got to figure that out. Because I was going to say we could send you, you know, you still have a couple days left to purchase a future
+
+[44:08] Searzol as a Hanukkah present for somebody. So if you want to, But we can't say, we can't send you a card saying, blah, blah, we can put one up that people can print out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Well, this is a holiday card. Well, if someone buys it for Hanukkah, it's not a holiday card. a freaking Hanukkah card. If someone buys it for Christmas, it's a if someone has a generic holiday, then we will send them a generic holiday card. No? Sure. No? Anyway. I mean, if you can be specific, be specific. If you cannot be specific, be generic. No? Is that is that a bad? No, well, we can do that. Okay. Uh, so, uh, we have uh, we have a question. Oh, museum, museum of food and drink on Thursday, we have our 1st ever forum that we're running. I'm going to be the moderator. So, uh, you know, Peter Kim, the director of the museum there, specifically tells me that I'm not supposed to interject any actual personal opinions into this, which is going to be, it's going to be very
+
+[45:03] difficult. Not used to not interjecting personal opinions. But, uh, the whole point is, is that we are, um, we're trying to have a debates about food where we actually get both sides of the argument in and not just freak show hacks, but, uh, you know, uh, paper tigers and whatnot to fight each other, but
+
+[45:21] real as smart, uh, smart and as good a people as we can get from either side of a debate to come together in a moderated discussion, uh, in front of people that we're going to record and then, um, later make available to everyone who can't be there. And the 1st one that we're going to tackle is the soda band. Do you have the information for that stuff? Yeah, I do. So it's this Thursday. December 5th at 6.30 p.m. at the Cuney School of Public Health. It's free online. If you go to roundtable.mofad.org. And it's hosted by Dave, and there's, um, Joel Berg from the NYC
+
+[45:55] Coalition against Hunger, Nicholas Freudenberg from the NYC Food Policy Center, some guy named Park Wild from Tufts University.
+
+[46:03] Well, I mean, Justin Wilson for the Center for Consumer Freedom and Lisa Young from NYU. So it should be a spirited debate and, you know, some guy, some guy, some
+
+[46:19] place, toughs. guy. He doesn't say his position? Yeah, all right, all right. Anyway, so that should be fun and we'll report back and tell you how to tune in to listen to the thing. Yeah, I'm gonna be there. Sweet. So you excited, Joe? I am. I'm really excited Should I, should I get all frothy at the mouth and like, uh, like we have to, I've never moderated. I have to choose a moderation style. Do I want to be like the total like mellow moderator? Do I go like Tim Lusser? Yeah, I think you can be mellow in this situation. But I mean, what do you do? Tim Russert style? Remember Tim Russert? Be like Charlie Rose. Yeah, that'd be good. What about what about Piers Morgan? No, he gets involved. Yeah, but like, that's the thing, like, that's, that's about his least involved, like, again, it's probably kind of like a Piers Morgan kind of a situation. I would like to see you really try to not, like, people won't know either. You know what? Stestas doesn't care about the actual equality of the event. She only wants to see me squirm and not interject my opinion. That's the only thing she really cares about. know your opinion. I think you should show up in like an umpire. Baseball umpire uniform. Take that route. I thought you were going to say a yellow Unitard. Well, that would also be interesting. I don't dress in Unitards anymore. Okay. So we have that going on. And then we have take a question in because I don't want to run out of time before we do it. Here's the question. From Zach in Pittsburgh. I know you love stock. Please help me out. Some places say you use roasted bones for a tasty stock. Other places say use raw ingredients for a tasty stock. Obviously, they both can't be done at the same time, or can they? What's your take on the issue? Have a good one, Zach, from Pittsburgh. Well, okay, look. To me, they're just, they're totally different, right? So if you a roasted meat. I mean, white, if you're making a white stock, you want to have, I mean, you need like maybe some bones in there for collagen, but you need some more meat to kind of bolster it. And by the way, on a non-roasted bone thing. I consider, if you cook a chicken, let's say, or whatever, and you take the carcass from that cooked chicken and you throw that into a pot. That might as well be a white a white stock, as far as I'm concerned, non-roasted, because you're not having any kind of brown
+
+[48:31] on it. Now, in general. I don't know that I agree with this. I mean, they taste very different, but people tend to say that, uh, well, look, it's obvious the brown ones, the roasted ones have that brown roasted flavor to it. So you have that you know, that flavor. If that's the flavor you're looking for, then you need to roast the
+
+[48:50] bones, period. Now, if what you want is just clean meat flavor and you don't want all those browning things, then you can go for
+
+[48:58] a, uh, for a white stock. I will say this. Most of the meat that we buy before it's cooked is pretty flavorless. And the reason it's flavorless is because it's usually, well, it's not cooked. and it's also very kind of young. If you want to do a white stock, let's say, a white broth of chicken, you're going to want to get an old hen, a stewing hen because that sucker, even if you don't roast it, is going to have a delicious flavor. If I had a really delicious hen that, you know, was old, had been laying eggs its whole life and then stopped, you know, laying
+
+[49:30] eggs so they popped it and then, you know, you have that thing to cook. That guy, I probably wouldn't roast it because I would rather have the pure flavor of the chicken coming through.
+
+[49:40] If you're having a broiler chicken that's only a couple of weeks old and you have a bunch of carcasses of it, right? Because you've used the meat for some other purpose because the meat's very tender because it's really too
+
+[49:51] young and hasn't developed a lot of flavor. Well, then I would roast the hell out of those things because the fact of the matter is, there's not much flavor going on in there. If you have, you know, you know, most veal, we're roasting off all the veal stuff because veal really hasn't, I mean, I love veal, but veal really hasn't developed that much flavor yet. So you roast it, you get a lot kind of more flavor. If you have something that you don't necessarily, if you're making a stock like pork, pork, you better cook that sucker. Like a raw pork stock smells kind of like raw. Do you like raw, smell of raw, raw pork stock? I don't even... Well, really porky, but not necessarily in the way that, like... Yeah. You know how there's like good porky and there's bad porky? And it never used to bother me except for when we went through it. Remember we went through that period where we were boiling all those pork skins for making chicharrons and like always smell for days with the boiling pigskins. So anything that reminds me of boiling pigskins. Like anything that reminds me of like, kind of also like, I love tripe, but
+
+[50:50] tripe before you prepare, like anything that kind of, how they kind of have that bleachy, weird thing from when they prepare, like, I love tripe, though. But anyway, my point is, is that like usually for a pork stuff, I'm gonna roast it off. Chicken, like young chickens roasted off. Old animals that have a lot of flavor. They can get away with being more purely the meat flavor. Now, yeah, you can always have the best of or the worst, depending on how you look at it, of both worlds. If you have, if you have a, like a really meaty, uh, meat, you can, you can kind of mix and match or you can get something in between. You can get the cleanliness of a white, uh, a white stock and on roasted
+
+[51:25] stock, and then also, uh, get some of the brown stuff, just mix the 2 together.
+
+[51:30] In general, if it is a bolstering effect you want,
+
+[51:34] uh, then I would use uh, roasted. If it's a kind of meaty palette that you want to draw over and you don't want the extra notes of the roast,
+
+[51:43] well then hell, don't roast it. Uh, that's uh, that's your choice. Um, so anyway, I think you can do both. especially here's one for you. If you want to do Remy. So what you do is you do an initial roasted stock in a pressure cooker quick and then do, not a Remy, sorry, a 2nd stock, then you could redo the stock with fresh
+
+[52:04] meat, like you would for a classic kind of consomme thing, only with more meat than you would for a classic consomme, and then get the freshness of that meat out of it. That might be a good way to get the boast of both best of both worlds. All right, listen, they're going to kick me off the air, but on my way out, We got some good stuff coming up on the steers off, you tuning into the Kickstarter. We're going to put some stretch goals in. I think we're going to give some extra screens as a stretch goal. Maybe we're talking about trying to include one of the clamps. We going to see if we can make it work. We're going to be talking about for all you Iwatani lovers out there, which is a type of torch, whether or not we're going to be able to support the Iwatani in time for the Kickstarter to be over. Maybe some European torches. One more thing. I need your help. Tweet me in. I'm looking for a source for anyone who's from South America. Kamu Kamu, which is a delicious fruit that unfortunately also has a lot of antioxidant
+
+[52:49] power, so everyone sells it as powdered kamu Kamu, which is gross. I need kamu kamu puree here in the US. If anyone has a source. Let me know at cooking issues. Kamukama puree has to be red, has to be delicious, has to be puree cooking issues.
+
+[53:10] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:43] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Regional Access. Regional Access is a regional distributor committed to creating sustainable economies throughout the
+
+[0:07] Northeast. For more information, visit regionalaccess.net. On behalf of our family of hosts, staff, and the 1000000s of listeners who have tuned in since 2009, we want to wish you happy
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+[0:18] holidays and ask for your support as we launch our daily in-house news coverage. Please consider making us a part of your end of year giving in 2013. Your membership donation is tax deductible, and the best way to show you believe in our
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+[0:32] work and the importance of a free, food focused media resource. Consider donating today at heritageradionetwork.org by clicking the donate button. Thanks for your support and enjoy the show.
+
+[0:50] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming new live from Reverse Pizzeria in the back of... Well, no, I reverse P3. in the back of Roberta's. In Bushwick, Brooklyn, on a very snowy, snowy day here in New York joined with Joe in the booth. Hey, Joe, how you doing? I'm doing okay. How it going, Dave? I'm doing all right. Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, not here yet because, well, Joe, is there a polite way of saying what the name of that website is where you can check on the
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+[1:16] L train? Um, is the Ltrain Eft.com? Oh, there you go. is theLtrainf.com. If you go to that website, you will find that, yes, in fact, it is, which is the train she takes. For those of you that have never been to the New York area and taken our lovely subways, The F-Train travels between kind of the hipster portions of Brooklyn and 14th Street in
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+[1:36] Manhattan. And that's what, uh, it's often effed. Right, Joe? It is pretty often eft. Highly trafficked, but there's only one line, so it gets pretty effed. It gets effed up in the in the in the snow. Although why would it get messed up in the snow? It all underground. the hell? Yeah, it's underground until you get to like East New York, so... Oh, that's where it got messed up? I can only assume. Hey, look, I took an above ground train to get here and ain't no problems on the J line. The J is the most reliable train in New York apparently. Wow. Joe, you're just fond of knowledge. MTA knowledge. They, uh, if they want to start putting me on the payroll, you know. You should get together with my son, Booker. He, you know, he's a similar font of knowledge on MT, although very opinionated. Man, Kitty hates that. great. He hates the... I don't know why he hates a day. He takes particular dislikes to certain trains based on the actual motors, the actual
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+[2:27] manufacturer of the motors used to propel them. He can tell by the sound of a subway car. He like, that's Austin propulsion in that. He's like, I don't like that one so much. And he's like, that's it, you know? And it's like a sign of the cross. It's over. It's done. So while we're waiting for Nastasia to show up and see how her day has been going, we got some folks here, we're doing a, a, well, why don't you, why don't you go, go around the room
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+[2:50] here and we'll, we'll, ever introduce ourselves, tell them what we're doing today. Hi everybody. I'm Lara, and I have an app called Days, which allows you to share
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+[3:00] a day's worth of photos and gifts at a time. a visual diary. Not dazed, like, dazed and confused, like, days, like, days of our lives. Like days of the week, days of our lives. Yeah. So this is a project called Days in the Life, in which I follow around and photograph a creative visionary like yourself, Dave, for a day of their life, just a normal Tuesday, and then we share that out with
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+[3:23] everyone. You'll be able to see a day in Dave's life. Nice. Yeah. Becky, wanna introduce yourself here? I'm Rebecca. I work with Dave and Anasasia over at Momofuku and Booker and Dox. So just hanging out for the day. Nice. You can't come in. Hey, Stas. L Trade messed up, huh? No, ACD messed up. Really? Yeah. That's weird. All right, so Nastasia's here. and we're ready to begin. Call your questions two. 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 for all your cooking or non-related cooking questions. And we're next Tuesday is what? Hey, Stas, you can climb over me. Christmas Eve, right? Ooh, are we in town? I'm not. Are you? Well, I mean, in other words, they quit... In all fairness, I told her to do it. So the question is, is this our last show before Christmas? So we're not going to do the Christmas Eve show? Yes, you wanna do it by yourself? Wow. I don't think you can, Dave. Oh, we're shut down? We're shut down. All right, pulling the plug. This is the Christmas Eve show. This is the Christmas. Alright, it's Christmas show. All right. So, uh, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. And that means this is our last opportunity on the cooking issue show to plug the seers all. Searzol. Go to Kickstarter.com. Search Searzol, and for $65, you too can be one of the 1st people to own this magnificent handheld broiler that we're making, right?
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+[4:42] How's it going? We're going to setting out the holiday cards, right? And what's it going to say? Sears and greetings. That's how Piper is. For those of you that tune in before, you know that Piper, Christington, king of puns, has done the holiday card verbiage, not the art, but the verbiage, and it's
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+[4:59] Searson's greetings. And we're mailing those out when today? Tomorrow? Tomorrow morning yeah. No, sweet. All right. So, to some questions. From Brad Spawn. We got in on the Twitter. Recommendations for a 1st low temperature book, books that have some veg recipes, especially are
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+[5:15] appreciated for ours is a mixed household. It's tough. I mean, um, there's really only pub- in published
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+[5:23] bookland that's, you know, dedicated, there's a, I mean, the only one I can really think of is the under pressure, the, um, the one that was put out by Keller and Roman, and there's
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+[5:32] some good veg recipes in there, but, you know, modernist cuisine. I'm sure they're at home, one has some, but that's kind of a more of a hefty tome. Look, the recipes are going to be fine in the under pressure thing. I disagree with some of their points specifically with some of their safety standpoints, but there's a lot of stuff online as
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+[5:51] well, and it's just ever increasing the amount of amount of stuff. You guys seen any newer, low temperature. By the way, the reason that everyone, Rebecca was like, I don't have to introduce myself. everyone who's in the studio, boom, like you're here, I'm going to call you out. Say, do you guys, do you guys know any, like, good, we haven't done, like, this Lucky Peach done anything on that? It's just as it comes, right? Most of the stuff that, you know, I work with, it's kind of as it comes, not specifically, um, you know, low temp or not. I'm trying to think of another one. There's, I mean, 1st book. So I'm assuming you don't want to spend like $158. Like, you know, the one Roka one is still a classic, which came out although Bruno Gouseau, the kind of grandfather of
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+[6:25] low one of the grandfathers of low temp cooking, detests that book because he says the temperatures are too low. In fact, he says that it's a book that attempts to poison people. It's a great chef's book. But I would get the under pressure. Um, you know, I have, dude, the ideas in book have a lot of low temp in it? don't know. I don't know. You know what? And go to chefsteps.com where they can put a lot of content online. It's not in the form of a cookbook, but they have a lot of content online for you to check out. That's put out by our good friends like Michael Mackin, Chris Young and who else is on that one? Grant, right? Anyway. Um, and obviously chefs who use a lot of low temperature work like grant and stuff. I'm, you know, sure have a lot of stuff in there, books on it. Anyway, sorry, I could not be of more help. Is that not very? I feel like I wasn't very helpful. Yeah, like Styles, like, I don't care. I don't give a rat's ass interesting. Okay. Also, we got in. Uh, do you remember those, uh, you remember those, um, uh, those uh, cocktail university things we did? Those videos we did. So, uh, delete uh, Leap Row, uh, Leapers 500 wrote in and says the saxophone during the cocktail university segment sounds like Michelle Pfeiffer and Sean Connery stopped off for a drink in the Russia
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+[7:30] house. Be like, I mean, like, that's good, I guess, right? I mean, like, I wouldn't mind if Sean Connery and Michelle Pfeiffer came and stopped by. would make them a drink. That's great I wanna be there. Yeah, I like those guys. I mean, I don't really I don't know them. I like the theory of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've never met. I mean, like Sean Connery kind of like... Can we find that? Can you find that, Joe? The saxophone and the whatever one? I'll do a little searching around. Joe, speaking of, I didn't bring it up before because, you know, I was waiting for Stas, I was a little pre, you know, preoccupied, but what's up with Jack and the porn music, you're trying to get people to donate money for the holiday seasons to the Heritage Radio Network
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+[8:06] using, fundamentally, porn music. Well, sometimes you have to appeal to not people's, like, hearts and minds, but to, you know, their senses
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+[8:13] in other ways, if you really want them to give you what they want, right? Yeah, but I mean, like, it's marketing. I mean, like, yeah, okay. So, like, it's known things, like, we're going to, like, use, uh, we're going to use 70s style porn music. No, I think it's just that's Jack's personal taste. There was really no marketing scheme here. But I will pass the review along to Jack. I'm not saying in a negative way, by the way. Can we play it again real quick? because Stas didn't get to hear it. Can we play the? Okay, yeah, let me boot that up. Yeah, let's basically, it'll just come on in a minute here. Well, he's going on behalf of our family of hosts, staff, and the 1000000s of listeners who have tuned in since 2009. It's got a little bit more of a hip hop vibe. No, wait, it gets more porn as we launch our daily in-house news coverage. Please consider making us a part of your end of year. It sounds like the intro to a very wide film. Maybe that's what I was thinking. Not like an actual very white song, but like an intro to a very white song. Yeah, it's going to go into slow your roll after that or something like that. We should play that. Yeah, Jack should have recorded that with all of his vocals pitched down, so he sounds like Barry White. Oh my god. Holy crap, can we do that? Then we would have had the money rolling it. Oh my god. Well, if Phil Bravo, if he would ever come in here and do it, like he could do the Barry White voice. A little goofier than Barry White. Yeah, very white, rest in peace with your magnificent voice. Okay. So, you know, did a presentation at the Food and Wine thing for all of Annex publishing. We'll talk about it a little bit, right? Because it's kind of interesting. So, uh, for those of you that, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I've heard me spiel about this before, uh, I
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+[9:50] spent a lot of time thinking about um, cocktails that other people don't spend a lot of time necessarily thinking about or didn't gin and tonic. Apparently everyone's thinking about gin and tonics quite a lot now. Like it's a huge, huge thing, but I've been working fairly consistently on the gin and tonic for, you know, almost a decade now.
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+[10:04] And actually, it figures in the, like the last chapter of the cocktail book is all just gin and tonic and kind of, you know, like full riff on the gin and tonic.
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+[10:12] And what's that? That's actual people. That's actual children laughing. I thought that was like some sort of special effect that they were playing. Anyway. So, uh, the concept is. So what do you do after you do the normal gin and tonic? And my new idea, and this is what we were presenting at food and wine, is to make a gin and
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+[10:28] tonic that doesn't have tonic in it, right? It just hits the same flavor nodes as a gin and tonic. So, and in fact, we made one that doesn't even have gin in it, but it tastes kind of like a gin and tonic with a little bit of
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+[10:39] a more of a holiday note, a little peppery note. Stas hates it because she hates junipery flavors, and then this has a definite junipery flavor in it. So, what are the notes we have to hit? You have to get the resiny pine from the juniper and the gin, plus, you know, some other botanicals that are in it. You need acidity, you need bitterness, right? I add a little salt. And so, and you need sugar, right, for the time. So we have almost all that. In one ingredient, Shazam, which is the 5 flavor berry. Oh, they also make Omeiji tea out of it in Korea. So it's Korean, Chinese, and also to a certain extent, Russian, where they call it Limonique, Limonique, or something like that. Say with a crazy accent. Come on, Stas. Well, you never hook me up with the accent. I can't do it. What do you mean? I've heard you do it a 1000000 times. stars is half Russian. I have never done that. Oh, yeah? How does your mom how does your mom call? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. All right, so you're lying to me. Wait, here's what sucks. Thank God. Oh, yeah. Hey, I'm Dave Arnold. You are Dave Arnold, aren't you? I am Dave Arnold from Booker and Dax. All right. But like, I feel like if I'd known they were going to play that, I wouldn't have gone to such like a high pitched squeal going in, I would have started, you know, you know,
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+[11:51] it started a little lower. They're like, hi, I'm DeVar. Yeah. Okay. So we use this Cassandra Berry, which you have to order it. I've order it online. We got it on Amazon and it's kind of fresher if you, like, the local spice shop seller. really desiccated. hard to get good flavor out of it, but it has all of those notes. It is itself sour, and they call it 5 flavor berry because it has, you know, it's a little bit salty, it's pungent, it's, uh, it's aromatic. I mean, it's got it's got all of those flavors in it. So what we did is we, it's the easiest drink in the world to make. We blended a small amount of schazandroberry with vodka because it brings its own gin flavors to it. Then to augment the acidity and tone down the kind of juniper notes on it. We also made some straight in water. And then combine those 2 to produce this,
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+[12:38] Cassandra. So we didn't add any acid. We didn't add any gin. We didn't add any quinine for bitterness. It was all right there in, you know, in that one thing. We did have to add a little sugar and then we carbonated. It also a cool kind of pink color. You like a color anyway, right? Yeah, it's a good color. I mean, if you liked gin, you think you would have liked it? Yeah. Yeah, it's like gin. The only thing it's not in a normal gin and tonic that is here is it's a little more
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+[12:59] Christmassy because it's got a little more of a pine note to it, even though it's not a pine tree. It's not a conifer at all. Cassandra. although it is very early, it's from a basil angiosperm line. It's closer to the whatever. Anyway. But it, yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. So anyway, Kazandra, that's what we were doing this week, right? Is that pretty much all we did is interesting. other than work on the seer soul, seer soul, seer soul? Yeah I think so. Yeah. All right. It wasn't making a Santa. Oh, Jesus. So Stas and Piper have a side business going on with vomiting wine zombies,
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+[13:31] right? Did you buy wine zombie.com yet? It's taken. wine company? called Wine Zombie? Did you buy pukingsanta.com? So the wine zombie sits there and vomits. And for 2 years is all Stas and Piper. literally, like, you think they're sitting around thinking about cooking problems? No, it's like every day. zombie, zombie, zombie. like, I know that, like, you know how, like, like, like, in some people's head, like, there's like a, like, one, when I, one of the 1st car, the 1st car I ever bought was a, was a 76 Pontiac Bonneville, right? And a James Brown tape got stuck in the tape deck because it's back in the tape deck days, you know, in the 90s, and it was just James Brown all the time. So whenever I was driving, all I would listen to was James Brown constantly. And I feel that you and Piper, your mind is like that, but instead of James Brown, it's wine zombie. You're like, wine zombie. Why? What the people want. The people are you and Piper. I want one too. Thank you. Oh, geez. Oh my god. So the wine zombie is a zombie mask with a pump in it that pukes wine on a, you know, continually, continuously, pukes
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+[14:34] wine like a fountain. And she's sitting there like, you know, puking. And so then this year, for they're like, you know, the problem is the wine zombies really only, it's a Halloween thing.
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+[14:45] How do we stretch this? How do we stretch the wine zombie? How do we do it? How do we make some more money off this off this the best idea we ever had, the wine zombie? And here's how. You buy a 5 foot. By the way, 5 foot sandas are creepy. Let's tell you something, 5 foot Santa is creepy. You buy a 5 foot Santa. what is it? puppet? What is that thing? It's like a... It's a cinematronic. Oh, so strong. Cinematronic. Oh, so strong. Oh my god. Did you make that over to say that in the box? Oh my God, such strength, such strength of punning. So you buy this thing. And then you stick the same pump that you have in the wine zombie into the Santa, and you have Santa puking, and then you get your friend Phil Bravo to be like, oh, man. with a little with a little voice box that's in Santa, right? The problem is, is that they're not really willing to take it far enough. So Santa is standing upright and the pump, he dribbles like wine all over his beard, which is freaking gross. No one wants to. And so instead of, and I want your 2 feedback on this. Instead of doing like the right thing, the honorable thing, and make Santa bend over while he's puking so that the poor guy cannot spill his stuff all over his beard.
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+[15:51] And by the way, puke on beard is nasty. I don't want to, no one wants to drink that stuff. They're having it come out of his pipe. And it's like, if it comes out of his pipe. First of all, I don't really know that it's ethical to have a smoking Santa anymore. like at all. Like, but, like, secondly, like, you know, if you're, if, if it's coming out of his pipe, it's not puke, nobody pukes out of their
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+[16:10] pipe, nobody pukes out of their pipe. And they're like, and they're like, what, and they're like, what about Popeye? like, when's the last time you saw Popeye puke at all? I already gave the party that we're giving it to the circumference of Santa, so he
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+[16:22] can't. No, you bend his legs back. No, it like... That's like a sound. No one's gonna understand the puking, they're gonna be like, oh, Santa is Santa fountain. It's not like a projectile situation, though. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My point is, is it, no, look, look, if you just had a Santa with the pipe. Yeah, you're a liar, liar. Water. Yeah, they have their own whatever. Mean water-based. You mean non-alcoholic. Or water. Alcoholic. Or water. Can you drink the fake vomit? Yeah, it's all food grade. So you could just put like a bunch of glasses near there. That's the way that they did it with the wine zombie. Yeah, that's the way they do it with the wine zombie. Like, imagine a chocolate fountain, but instead of puking zombie, or in this case, Santa. But I'm saying you just bend his butt back, tilt him forward, so he pukes down into the bowl, so there's no beard hit. Because if you see a pipe, if you see liquid coming out of your pipe, your 1st thought isn't puke, but then you have Phil Bravo's voice making puking
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+[17:17] noises, and anybody that's ever puked knows that the pipe is popping out of the mouth. No, not even Popeye is keeping the pipe in his mouth as he's puking.
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+[17:26] How do you clench your teeth around a pipe and keep the pipe in your mouth while you're blowing trunks out? I think you should have done some research during Santa Con. You could have really like found some good models. Oh, hell yeah. off of. Yeah, yeah. You know what? And this is a thing. I mean, no offense to the Santacon people, but, you know, I have 2 kids and like one of them is still a believer. You know what I mean? And it's not cool to have Santa puking on the ground I have Piper send a video of what it looks like. It's not even a pipe. It's not even a what is it? I'll send the video. We'll watch it at lunch. All right, all right. So anyway, you can call in or tweet in with your thoughts on puking Santa. But Phil's Bravo, Phil Bravo's voice is quite good. Maybe, can you just, can you call in and do the voice? Yeah, let's see if you can. SK calling, do the voice. All right, cool. Now, we have an actual normal question in, from M. Deer cooking issues. I am a lover of most all foods. I am a size 12 plus model. So eating is really a part of my job. Because of health reasons, I've really had to cut out a ton of foods. I get really bad heartburn, which has been tearing up the lining of my esophagus. I need to basically cut out all spicy citric, high fat, and carbonated food and beverages out of my diet. Rough. That's rough, right? So she says the worst things are any kind of pepper, which I recently just grown to love using,
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+[18:42] chocolate, that sucks to give that up. Citric fruits are basically any fruits other than apples. Although, why not apples? Apples can be highly acidic. But we'll get into this in a minute. Acidic vegetables such as tomatoes, onions, et cetera. High fat meats. I've been eating a lot of wild salmon, although wild salmon, very high in fat. It's interesting. I've done some research and chicken breasts. Why, why, why, why, why, Sam, that's why people like salmon. Salmon in general is a high fat fish. You can get leaner cuts of salmon, but usually the more money you spend on salmon, the higher the fat content is. That's why people like the, like a lot of the coal water salmons that are caught in the, you know, in the rivers up there in Alaska and Canada and all that because they're fairly high
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+[19:16] fat. And in fact, like, you can literally just look at the price range of salmons, wildcot salmons, and they correlate with either with marketing, like copper, whatever, but a lot of times
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+[19:28] they'll correlate with fat content. Anyways, um, and, you know, look at smoked salmon. That some fatty stuff. And I'm saying it's in a great way. It's a good way. you know, good product. I like fat a lot. Anyway, uh, spices like curry or anything that is intense in flavor. I now eat a lot of easy to process grains like couscous and quinoa and brown rice. Quinoa, like, I still can't wrap my head around the word quinoa. anyone else have a problem with that? That's impossible to spell. Yeah, right? Virtually impossible. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right? It's not just me. If you go on YouTube, they do these pronunciation videos and they do one for
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+[20:02] quinoa, and they call it Kenokanoa, which is... I like that. I'll tell you, if you called it Canokanoa, like, that's like, that sounds like some sort of like awesome Samoan thing. Canoka noa. Canoka noa. Or like, or like Manalao, macadamia, manala, macadamia, nut. I love that. I mean, that's I don't really know what the accent is over there. But, like, but, like, Monala, it's like an awesome word. So coconut, cooking. I say it again? Coconut. That's so much better than Kokomo. Remember that crappy beach boy song? It'd be a lot harder to pronounce, but it was Canokanoa within the Kokomo song. Yeah. No, no, no. Right? Styles once hung out with the Beach Boys lawyers at, yeah, she was
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+[20:40] at, she was at Nathan Mirvold's lab for the modernist, because one of the
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+[20:44] monitor's cuisine dinners with Mark Ladner, and they were sitting next to the lawyer for the Beach Boys. Apparently, like, they aren't, like, happy go lucky fellows. Oh, we were also sitting next to the more interesting Google founder. Cheated on his wife with a small Asian woman who worked with him. I feel that this is not maybe safe for, well, safe. the opinions of Nastasia Artastasia is alone and do not represent cooking issues or the heritage radio network. Uh, the, uh, so, but you said he was also wearing the glasses. for the 1st time, yeah. It was early. It was like a couple years ago before anyone else had the glasses. was a prototype. And what was your thoughts on the glasses? stupid. That's why we call her the hammer. That's why we call her the hammer. So he was like, well, better or worse than a segue? Oh, way better. better, yeah. I don't know. love a good segue. I've never been on one, but I'm... Do you like seeing the tours, the Segway tours? People with hold like the head segue goes like this and all the other segue stuff. Yeah, I get irritated when I see people wearing Google glasses, but not when I see people on a segue. Have you ever seen you ever seen someone double up? I feel like that would be the perfect combination. I feel like they do that. at the Google office. Yeah, they Google up and segue up. Yeah. You know, at the Google Office, I did a demo at Google and they have these kind of awesome Google colored bikes, and the idea is that no one's going to steal the Google colored bike. I was like, I want a Google color bike. And like they, like, you can just bike around all over the campus there. The Google campus is in, I've never been to the one here in New York, but the one in California is freaking amazing. It's like, it's like, it's like pre-bust awesome, like volleyball chords and like food and everything. I've been to the one here Google's one of them investors. We love you, Google. Yeah? How's the campus here? It's good. So I think you should really go there. Some of like some of the best features, I think, are the food programs that they have there. Like they have like five. what They want any demos. Yeah, I mean, they have like 5 what is it called? the, like, food carts and like, trucks inside. They're parked inside of Google. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I have a friend who works there and I'm trying to get invited to lunch. I've eaten at the Google one and I spoke to their head chef and they haven't had a very interesting program. It's pretty cool. I mean, they should have interesting stuff. They got more money than God. Okay. Anyway, back to M's question. I now eat a lot of easy. Okay. Like couscous and quinoa and brown rice. I loved using Near East boxes. For those of you that don't know, Near East is a brand of, uh, like boxed, um, Middle East,
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+[23:12] Green, like couscous, book brown rice, little
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+[23:18] flavor, flavor packets. And, uh, I loved using them, but they have a lot of garlic and citric acid and fats. Now, M, we looked at some of the labels for the for that. And then, and we didn't have, we
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+[23:32] got to call her, but let me, let me finish at least the question before I go to the answer. Is it Phil? I'm not sure. Let's find out if it's Phil. Okay. Now, I looked at the labels for these, and they don't, like, they didn't seem that high in, uh, the ones I looked at
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+[23:44] didn't aren't high in citric gas. You got to remember, also, and we'll get we'll get into PH in a minute. I'm also looking for an alternative cooking fat as opposed to olive oil, and we're all like, do you not like olive oil? If you don't like olive oil, if you don't want the flavor, I mean, just go with something that has a high smoke point, like, you know,
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+[24:00] um, like rape seed or, you know, or canola, uh, or something like that. Although I at home almost, I got to be honest, I exclusively use olive oil. I use olive oil and then I have, like, real, honest to God, fry fat for my deep fried fryer. But I don't stock a lot of different oils except for flavoring oils. You can keep a lot of different flavor when I was around. What are you used to cook with, does? All the way up. Exclusively? Or better. But, uh, but uh. Uh, I, uh, uh, I want to buy it. Can we get the website, polyunsaturated a-hole? I want that. anyway. I'm also looking for, okay. I eat a lot of different beans because they're good for my heartburn, but I don't want to translate this all into gas, which I've never had a problem with before. So I'm looking for an alternative uh, for a non-meat uh, protein uh, that has a uh, low
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+[24:49] pH, presumably you mean low low acid, so high pH. Now let me tell you something. Also, if you increase the gas you have, I was doing some research on GERD, gastroosophgeal reflux
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+[24:58] disease, and apparently downstream gas can actually cause a your esophagus to open up a little bit, so you definitely don't want to add gassiness to the
+
+[25:08] problem because it might potentially increase your symptoms. Anyway, my questions are, what kind of mild spices are there to flavor rice grains, chicken and fish? I use dill a lot and turmeric and cumin. You know, dill is delicious. Nils Noran, you know, my Swedish chef friend. He loves the dill because he's Swedish, and if you don't love dill, they put you on the top of the mountain, let you freeze to death. Wiley Dufrayne hates the dill. Did you know that? No. That's a little secret that I probably shouldn't have told you. Wiley DuFrane. not like Dill. You heard it here first, unless you are Wiley. Also, okay. Alternative cooking fats, the alternative cooking fats without being processed, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And good marinades for meat, and M hates soy sauce. How do you hate on soy sauce? How do you hate on soy sauce? What about miso? We were having this conversation before. If you hate soy sauce, does that mean you necessarily hate miso? No, because I don't care for soy sauce particularly as a marinade. It works for me, but like, I don't use it when I eat sushi even. And I like miso. Right. So miso makes an excellent marinade and curing device, right? Miso and some other liquids, preferably probably for you not too acidic liquids. And, um, and, you know, some sugar, maybe
+
+[26:16] then there to like counter the saltiness of it. But miso might be a good thing. We'll get into this in a second. I'm going to go through your question and then I'll answer it after the call. I like to keep natural organic. I know that low fat dye is going to make me lose weight, but I need to retain my curves by eating good amount of mild food. I feel like I just haven't been eating enough because I don't know how to, uh, what to do to make it taste good, uh, or eating and effing up my diet by getting too much fat on the plate because fat can increase the symptoms
+
+[26:41] of uh, uh, gird, gastro-esophageal reflux. Help, M. All right, so we're going to get to the answers. And I love that someone's like, I can't eat enough anymore because they can't eat the foods that I want. This is like an interesting question. We never had a question like this before, but right now, call her, you're on the air. Boom. Hi Dave. This is Benzinger from Indianapolis. How you doing? Doing okay. How about yourself? All right. Uh, I just got back on a, uh, from a 3 month trip to the country of Lebanon. Oh, nice. And, um, I ran into something that I was curious about. They store this stuff in the fridge. You know how like garlic oil is not good because of botulism. They have a spread called tomb, which is the Arabic word for garlic. And it's literally raw garlic, oil, salt, pepper, and lemon juice. Why is that safe? Is it because of solids content or is it because of something else that I'm not sure of? Because they store it in the fridge for like weeks, 2 weeks. Is it a puree? It is. Okay, so, and how much salt and how much lemon juice? Uh, salt to flavor, lemon juice to turn it white. It's a, it's a, it's a yellowish color. You add this, you add the lemon juice and it turns it a nice white color. Right, so both both the flavor. But both the acidity and the salt are going to inhibit the botulism, right? So, I mean, the issue with garlic oil, specifically, is, and is it heated or not heated? It's not heated. Right. So when you garlic grows in the ground. So, you know, botulism is ubiquitous and, uh, meaning it's everywhere, and it gets on the garlic and you can't kill botulism by normal heating. So, you know, the idea that you that you put garlic into oil, like a whole clove or something, then maybe even heat the oil, killing all the other competitive bacteria that are on the garlic,
+
+[28:28] uh, like lactic acid bacteria, things like this, uh, and but not killing the spores for things like botulism. And then you have it sealed from the air by the oil, but locally, the garlic still has a fairly high water activity because the garlic cloves are
+
+[28:42] entire or the pieces of garlic are entire. And so you can have botulism growth on the actual garlic. Like that's the issue, right? So, uh, if you were to, um, add, if you were to make a puree with acidity and with salt, assuming the levels were high enough, you
+
+[29:00] would, um, be, um, inhibiting the growth of botulism. Secondly, if you're not heating it, there are probably other bacteria, like lactic acid bacteria that are good competitors against things like botulism, causing, did it
+
+[29:15] taste, did you notice any kind of lactic flavor? Was there any fermentation going on in it? I didn't notice any. No, it's because usually they make it fresh, but if there's any extra leftover, they put it in the fridge. Right. And so botulism is going to grow very slowly in the fridge anyway. And if there are other bacteria present that haven't been killed by a pasteurization step, then they probably provide good competition for the for the botulism so that it doesn't
+
+[29:38] grow, plus the salt and the fact that it and the lemon juice and the fact that it's been pureed so that the acidity and the salt are in, you know, close contact with all the water bearing parts of the
+
+[29:49] stuff, because they're not going to be in the oil because they don't like to live with the oil. So all of the lemon juice and all of the salt are going to be chilling out with the garlic, which is the water phase stuff anyway. And so you probably get the maximum preservation from all 3 of those things making it, you know, not making it not kill you. Right, okay. Now, I don't know what the exact levels are to have it not kill you, but like all of those things are very helpful. If you were going to make it at home, you could probably put pink salt
+
+[30:14] in, if you really want to make sure botulism is not going to grow. Okay, would that effect the flavor quite a bit though? You think so? No, I mean, the flavor from curing on pink salt is more a reaction, I think, with the meat. I don't think it's gonna, uh, I don't think it'll affect it, but like, you, I mean,
+
+[30:32] it's, it's, I'm always a little loath to give out recommendations that are safety recommendations without like actually researching
+
+[30:39] the documents on it to make sure that I have the levels right, but, um, you also got to remember, botulism grows really, really slowly in
+
+[30:46] the, in the fridge. And is it, is it, is it like put on bread raw or is it, or is it used in cooking? It's put on bread raw. I mean, it's a really good product. I'll mix it into salad dressings and things like that if I have extra. But, uh, usually what they do is they just put it on with, like, pickles and tomatoes and show up, uh, and and have sandwiches with it. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, I mean, that's also the reason oil and garlic is so bad and normally is because typically people won't use it quickly because it's not like a spread, you know what I mean?
+
+[31:20] So it'll be sitting on the shelf for a long time. Right. That's good. Yeah. So how long does it typically take for garlic oils to become dangerous? I don't know. I don't trust, like, there's some research out there, and if you talk to the food safety experts, there, they lead you to believe that the growth of
+
+[31:36] botos can be much faster than you think. So, uh, if something is inherently unsafe, it's like I'll just use it fresh or
+
+[31:43] or not, you know what I mean? Because who wants to mess around with that? I mean, the good thing about botulism, if there is a good thing about botulism, is that, you know, is that you can destroy it with heat. So if you're using something that is possibly contaminated with botulism, but you heat it thoroughly. The toxin, um, from botulism is, um, is heat labile. So it will break down. But, you know, because typically the way people die is they'll eat a bunch of home canned mushrooms, which are low acid food.
+
+[32:11] You know what I mean? You know, they're not getting it from tomatoes or, you know, things like this that have a high acidity.
+
+[32:16] So the acidity and the salt are really helping you out here. Okay, thanks a lot, dude. All right, good luck with the tomb. Alright, thank you. All right. So back to this. M, look good news for you. Good news for you on the carbonated beverage front. I looked up an article called the effects of carbonated and or caffeinated beverages on acid and non-acid reflux and symptomatic perception among different phenotypes of GERD by Jose Remy's, uh, troche
+
+[32:41] and uh, Amira A. Azamar, uh, Jacome, from, what is this from? 2012, from Gastroenterology, volume 142, issue 5, May 2012. So here's a here's an interesting thing. Uh, caffeine does, in fact, increase the amount of time that your esophagus spends at a
+
+[33:01] pH below four, so it does increase the damage that's going to happen to your esophagus based on that.
+
+[33:06] But carbonation, although it does increase your burping. And so you think that it's actually going to cause an increase in acid in your esophagus, their research indicates that in fact, it has no effect. So unless you know that you are specifically have a problem with it. Uh, and there's all different kinds of uh, of GERD, but uh, carbonation, you might not have to give it up, which I would be very thankful to not have to give up carbonation. And remember, like, yes, it does form an acid. CO2 is forms carbonic acid, but it's not very, very acidic, right? Uh, then another thing on, um, another, it's interesting articles I was looking up. The effects of dietary fat and calorie density on esophageal acid exposure and reflux symptoms from 2006. What's interesting is, uh, and you might not know this, uh, but when they're doing the research on it, um, it shows that increasing the fat content increases the symptoms that you feel, right?
+
+[34:05] But they did not the actual damage. The actual, it's actual chloric density that is determining like how much the actual pH of your of your esophagus is going to go down. Whereas your your mental symptomatic perception of it is going to increase with fat, which I thought was really interesting. Of course, unfortunately, fat and calorie density go kind of hand in hand. I also looked up the issue with the
+
+[34:34] captation. I assume you meant spicy peppers, not black pepper, although I don't know. And yeah, that looks like that's going to be a problem. I was hoping that I could get some data for you that shows that maybe you have a way out that you
+
+[34:46] could eat some of these foods, but other than carbonation. I't really have any good news there for you. Um, on the, so let's go backwards on your questions. On the marinades for meats. I would try miso. Um, it's it's gonna be good. The problem here really fundamentally is, is that most marinades, it depends on why you marinating a meat. If you're marinating meat for flavor, then... Okay, give me one more second. If you're marinating feet for flavor, That's one thing, but acids and marinades are actually there to break down proteins, things like
+
+[35:16] buttermilk. And so that, you're not going to get that kind of tenderizing effect. But what I would suggest, if you want to just marinate for flavor, then you could do things like misos, like
+
+[35:26] salts, uh, that don't have so much of a tenderization effect, but just go get yourself
+
+[35:30] uh, an immersion circulator so you can do low temperature cooking. If you do low temperature cooking on that stuff, you can get the textures that you like, um, or that you, you know, feel are enhanced by marinades without having to actually fundamentally alter the muscle structure of the meats that you're
+
+[35:43] cooking. All right, hold a second. And then we'll get back to, we'll get back to some alternate stuff in your other questions in a minute, but call her, you're on the air. Hi, this is Patrick calling from Brooklyn. Hey, Patrick, how you doing? Good, good. I have a question, a sort of another sort of food safety question that, um, I cook about 8 lobsters, uh, steep parsing them in September, uh, froze everything, I've eaten everything, including the stock, but what I, I, I took out the tamale from the 8 lobsters, mixed it, whipped it with butter, and then froze it, and it's, but it's pretty amazing sweet stuff, sort of tastes like monkfish
+
+[36:23] liver or, Uh, sea urchin, you know, together with the butter. It's been so good that I've been, uh, waiting to use it for the right, right occasion, and I'm starting to be, I'm paranoid that keeping something like a, uh, car cooked lobster liver. Mixed with butter in the freezer may not be safe over the long term. No, it's in the freezer. It's safe. The question is, what's the quality going to be like? And so when you have water in contact. Remember, butter already, butter keeps well in the freezer, butter's water content is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20, but they're kind of like kind of locked
+
+[36:59] in in my cells there. So, but when you have a, you know, a fat and a, um, and a product there, especially one that contains its own enzymes and whatnot, assuming you haven't wiped them all out, is
+
+[37:13] that, uh, you could get rancidity. So rancidity is not going to hurt anybody, but it might be a quality issue. And a lot of, a lot of like how rancid it's going to go depends on, um, depends on, and that's why a lot of times things like frozen cured pork becomes an issue because there's salt in it already, right?
+
+[37:33] But and you're freezing it and you expect it to stay good, but in fact, the quality goes down, right?
+
+[37:39] Because unless you're freezing at extremely low temperatures, what ends up happening
+
+[37:43] is, is that all of the water soluble stuff becomes concentrated in a very concentrated water phase and the unfrozen part of your
+
+[37:49] food and enzymatic reactions and rancidity and all those kinds of things still going on. None of these are safety issues. Okay? So, yeah, just flavor. So what I would do is I would, I would, like, uh, I would unwrap a, a, you know, before you have the big party where you're going to bust out the awesomeness, right? Do you, you have a, how do you, how do you pack this stuff in zips in fact? What do you have? I have it in a crop that's in, then, it's in a, uh, a
+
+[38:14] ziploc that I basically took all the water, the, the air out of with the,
+
+[38:18] uh, with the, with the meth dunking method. So it's basically here. There's very little contact with air. That's very good, right? So you have a very good chance that it's still good, right? Because air is your mortal enemy with these sorts of things for a variety of reasons. You want contact in the bag to prevent freezer burn. Not that it's as huge an issue with you because you're going to probably break it all down anyway. But what I would do is I would crack the, I would take out the zippy. I would I would just crack a piece off of the edge of it. And the worst of it's going to be where the air interface is on the zippy anyway. So like the rest of the quality is going to be higher than that. If you chip off a little piece of it and taste it, you know, you know, in
+
+[38:57] like the week before you're going to use it, you know, and then keep the other stuff frozen solid, then you should get a good indicator of the quality.
+
+[39:05] You don't want to bring it up and down a bunch of times because that's going to ruin the quality, the more you freeze off free saw, but
+
+[39:10] that, you know, as long as you just pull it out, crack off a little piece with, like, you know, a knife, you know, just don't cut yourself. And, uh, uh, you should be able to get a firm indicator of quality. But from a safety point, I would not worry. Okay, great. Well, I mean, this is a pretty awesome ingredient. I'm just, I've been, I've been waiting, waiting for the right chance to use. And how long has it been since summer? So it's been like 5 months, 6 months? It's been, over Labor Day, I took 8 lobsters on the plane. I actually use your the clove oil method too. Oh, yeah, nice. It worked well for you? Yeah, work pretty well. I think the concentration was, it would, I want to try it again, you know, because it was, it was, it was a preliminary method, but it definitely seemed to, um, affect a lobster's flavor in a positive way, and
+
+[39:55] I, I sort of, I have this grand vision of going back up the main, returning with more, trying again, and, and crazy. I, maybe a pot, possible idea of making fish sauce with, with, with lobster,
+
+[40:07] lobster, uh, carcasses, because I haven't seen that time before. The interesting thing about, um, I have a new, I have a new technique for lobster that I use. Yeah, the lobster, the reason lobster tastes good in Maine is because, well, if you talk to a main person, it's because they have hard bottom, whereas like Cape
+
+[40:26] Lobsters, like there's a mud bottom, and so like, you know, the lobster, the lobster folks from Maine are like, I
+
+[40:31] would never eat one of those mud bugs from the Cape. And then you're like, oh, come on, man. Honestly, they do have some good tasting lobsters in Maine, but lobsters start deterior deteriorating the minute they're pulled out, right? So and like, so when they're sitting in tanks for a long time, they deteriorate. why, like, you know, if you if you get the guy from the lobster boat, that's why the lobster, plus also, obviously, depending on the time of year, whether you like a shedder or what, depending on how long ago the lobster molted, that can also
+
+[40:55] obvious, it's an obvious effector of quality, but they, you know, you want the lobster to be as fresh as possible. This was why they probably tasted good. You flew them back and cooked them right away. But that wasn't a total aside, you know, because I go on tangents. But the, I have a new lobster technique. Uh, from maybe like a year ago or something that I do. If you don't want to do clove oil, you could try this one out. Um, what I do is I uh, I spike the, I put the lobster in a, in
+
+[41:21] a uh, baking tray, right? Uh, with glass baking. I don't have to use glass, but I use it because it's non-reactive, a glass baking tray with like a little like wood block under its carapace. And then I cut through the carapace, like destroying all of
+
+[41:35] the, you know, most of the ganglia that are around there. basically just bisect the head, right? So now you've wiped out the head and then I break it apart. And then I take the shells, and I make the shells into a lobster stock, and then I add the meat from the lobster
+
+[41:57] stock, and then poach it off that way, so you don't lose any of the flavor, and I've been getting good results with it. Anyway, there's a different thing to try sometime if you want. Yeah, I'll be sure to try it. I'll let you know how the lobster tamale butter taste. Yeah, so yeah, send that send send us a link to the Twitter account. So at cooking issue. So you know how it tastes. Okay, great. Thanks so much, Dave. All right, cool. Thank you. Call her, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Hi, it's Brian. How are you guys? Hey, doing all right. How you doing? I'm all right. Doing okay in the snow? Yeah, yeah. So, um, I got, all this conversation about botulism has made me paranoid about this, um, pressed eggplant pickle, um, that I, that I made, um, uh, a couple months ago when the weather was, was nice and we had lots of
+
+[42:45] eggplants. So what I did is, I pressed, I, I sliced the eggplants in, and then I salted it, and then, um,
+
+[42:53] basically I, I, I, I drained it, and then I added a bunch of vinegar to
+
+[42:59] it. I mean, this is a traditional sort of Italian recipe, and then you take, and then you put
+
+[43:04] some, uh, some olive oil and some garlic and some pepper over it, and then you, uh, and then
+
+[43:11] you, you cover it. Um, and I've also seen it done with mushrooms as well. Um, so basically there's not much, there's not really any water, uh, or very little water in there. Should I be worried about botulism? I mean, I put them in cans, but I haven't done a heat pack. I didn't do a heat pack process because it was a cold process. Right. Well, I mean, I have a jar of those eggplants in my fridge right now. They're delicious. You know, I mean, I have a commercial variety, but they're Italian. they're delicious, but, um, they're acidic, you know, uh, so like, I mean, the main, the main thing there is, you know, your, your, your 2 main saviors there
+
+[43:49] are they're salty and they're acidic. And so that's what's making them safe. I mean, the, the, the real problem is like uh, in mushrooms where people don't add acidity and they do it, you know, low acid or they don't add enough acid
+
+[44:04] or enough acid and salt. Uh, and then they get rid of um, competitive uh, bacteria. Did you do a cooked step at all? Did I do a what step? Did you cook it at all or no? There was no cooking. Right. So again, like, you know, as I said before, that's probably actually helping you because if there was, if you didn't add enough salt to prevent any sort of growth or enough acid to really prevent growth, then probably you would get lactic acid bacteria growing in
+
+[44:28] there and it would function more like a traditional pickle. Remember, when you're pickling vegetables in water, they're essentially in anaerobic, like sauerkraut and kimchi are essentially anaerobic
+
+[44:39] activities, and things like botulism are being prevented by combinations of competition from lactic acid bacteria because they haven't been
+
+[44:49] destroyed, and through salt and through the acidity, either added acidity in your
+
+[44:56] case from vinegar or the acidity that's produced by lactic acid bacteria. And you know, I don't want to really go on the record saying what's safe and what's not because, you know, like, I
+
+[45:05] can't. But the fact of the matter is, is that a lot of your problems are going to happen if you destroy the competitive bacteria through heat processing, because the heat
+
+[45:13] processing, typically that you're going to do, unless you're doing retort canning, is not enough to kill the spores and things like
+
+[45:18] botulism. You know what I'm saying? I hear that, but even even with this one, um, because it's covered with olive oil, does that make it more prone to, um,
+
+[45:28] uh, to, you know, nasty bacteria? Well, the olive oil covering it like instantly now you're in an anaerobic, uh, you're in an anaerobic uh, environment without, right? But the question is, what's going to grow in that anaerobic environment? So you're, you know, there are nasty things that grow in anaerobic environment,
+
+[45:49] perfringians, uh, you know, botulism, you know, some spore forming nasties like that. There's microaerobic things that can grow in those environments like listeria. And so then the question is, but there's also good things that grow in that environment, like lactic acid bacteria, which is
+
+[46:04] all you know, all the great lactic pickles in the world are based on. So then the question is how do you favor the growth of lactic acid bacteria and disfavor the growth of the other nasty ones and salt, right? acidity and not killing the, because unfortunately, it's fairly easy to kill the good ones because they don't form, they're not spore forming.
+
+[46:26] Lactic acid bacteria, you wipe them out and they're wiped out. So if you're not wiping them out to begin with. They're still there. And even just like having, even if you cook something, if you expose it to oxygen and then put it to the air and put it back in, there's more lactic acid bacteria hitting it because again, they're ubiquitous, but it's, it's this kind of pasteurization in place in oil phase with low acid and low salt. They're really favoring nasty things like botulism,
+
+[46:52] um, fringes, all these other things. So, you know, I don't want to say 100% because I don't know how much salt and how much vinegar there, but if
+
+[46:59] it tastes acidic and salty, you know, and you've gotten rid of some of the water through
+
+[47:04] pressing, and, you know, uh, you know, it seems like fairly, I mean, especially if you're following a traditional procedure, it seems like you're probably pretty safe.
+
+[47:15] A lot of times the safety issues happen when you take a traditional preservation method, let's
+
+[47:19] say confit. And you, you know, I'm making quote marks in the air, modernize it, right? And so typically what modernizing it means is like on a
+
+[47:29] comfit, is cooking it less, meaning you have a higher water activity, because you're not cooking a lot of the water out, or be reducing the
+
+[47:36] salt or reducing the cure time on it. And so like, or taking the herbs away because the herbs also have some bacteriostatic effects that are in comfy. So by removing all these hurdles, you can take what is traditionally a safe product and
+
+[47:48] make it an unsafe product. So, but if you're following a traditional method, you're not trying to go hyper low salt and you're not trying to do a bunch of other things like
+
+[47:55] that. Um, you know, there are, there are safety, there are safety methods built into centuries old techniques because when they did it other
+
+[48:07] ways they would die. Yeah, this is a, this is an old school method, and um, but if, if the can had some, um, some gas coming
+
+[48:16] out, does the botulism release gas? Oh, hell yeah. Not always. That's the thing. some forms of botulism are going to release gas. So that's why you're always told not to open, not to eat cans that produce gas. Some, but that, but gas is not a guarantee of
+
+[48:33] no botulism. I mean, I mean, sorry, lack of gas is not a guarantee of no botulism because there are botulism strains that will not make gas. But if there's gas, also lactic acid bacteria can make gas. So, uh, you know, it's, um, like Surstraming,
+
+[48:50] the, the crazy Swedish fish that, like, you know, you're not allowed to bring on airplanes, although I did. Uh, like, you know, that stuff, the cans are bulging and when you put the can opener into it, the can like explodes with with some foul smelling gunk. So there's other things that make gas other than botulism. But, uh, you know, that's why, but, you know, if, if a can bloats and you don't know why you pitch it because cans are supposed to be sterilized. So if you're going to can some to commercially sterilize. So if you can something, you're expecting a no bloat situation. You know what I'm saying? Right, right. Okay. So like a pickle, like when you pack a pickle, right? Let's say you make a pickle. And you pack a pickle. even like a lactic pickle, and then you're going to can it after it's done, right? So there, what you're doing is you're killing the lactic acid bacteria. So there should be no more bloat. And then even if you if you get bloat on that, the assumption is it's something nasty that you didn't kill like botulism and it's no good. You see what I'm saying? See the difference? I got it. Another pickle related question. So it, I've, I've read that you can use way to kickstart, uh, uh, uh,
+
+[49:53] a pickle, um, and kind of keep it, keep it going, going that way. Um, but that seems to
+
+[50:00] be kind of counterintuitive because that is, it sounds like a different process, which would create an environment that wouldn't be friendly for lactic acid bacteria.
+
+[50:08] Well, uh, I mean, like, remember, like, cheese is grown, I mean, cheese, like, cheese is fundamentally, like, a lot of the ripening in cheese is, uh,
+
+[50:18] our lactic acid bacteria and other things. I mean, it depends on what kind of cheese you're making, but no, the way is a good substrate to grow bacteria. Yeah. Oh, okay. So I can use my uh, from my yoga away from my yogurt, uh, as
+
+[50:35] a, as a kind of Kickstarter for my pickle and. Oh yeah, it's full of lactic acid bacteria already. You know what I mean? Especially if it's way from yogurt, you know, and you haven't heated it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's already precultured. I don't know whether or not the particular strains that you have are necessarily the ones you want in
+
+[50:51] pickles, but yeah, you've already got a, you already got a raging lactic acid colony there. So already you've kickstarted it and you have you have the inhibition of uh, negative uh, bacteria like, uh, like, uh, botulism
+
+[51:04] or or, or pfringians. Would it be possible to pickle uh, with using whey, uh, as a, as a starter, and so you don't have to add salt or I don't have to add as much salt? I don't know. I don't want to I'm not gonna, I don't, I can't, yeah. I don't want to go. I want to cosign on that. Although there's a lot of people that do very low salt fermentations, but, you know, I've never done a lot of research on
+
+[51:29] on their actual, like, absolute safety. Okay, great. Thanks for all the help. I think I'll be eating the eggplant pitbull. I'll let you know if I'm still around. Yeah, if your vision goes double, go to the hospital. That's blurred vision is one of the problems with botulism. I'm just kidding. But I'm not. I'm kidding but I'm not. All right. have a good one All right. So let me rip through the rest of M's questions because I got a couple of questions I got to go to and they're going to pull me off the air pretty soon, I think. Okay. So on the meat, look, do you not like soy? Soy? I just, you know, who sent this the tofu book, Adrian wins tofu book? I just finished reading it, and now, at Stas is, now she's, she's, she's going to make the face because I'm going to go on a tofu cake in the new year because it's been many years since I've made tofu regularly, and I realized how much I love fresh tofu, and M, if you like to cook, fresh tofu, making your own tofu, I've never found a tofu supplier here in
+
+[52:22] the, they're here, but I've never looked them up that, that I really, really love. I love tofu that you make, like, that you make. It's awesome. Like, go ahead and make that, and you can put a whole bunch of things other than soy, which you hate on tofu, and fresh tofu is
+
+[52:37] amazing, and it's also not high in acids, and it doesn't cause the bloat out that you, you know, that you would get from the other
+
+[52:43] things. It's fun to make. Then you can go, you can morph from that. Make, you know what I used to make. I've only made it a couple times a years ago, but I loved it. was Yuba. You ever made Fresh Yuba? Anyone here? Yuba, Fresh Yuba, you know, which is the tofu skins is not the same thing as the dried stuff. It's just not the same stuff. The stuff that's never been that you just make fresh and you eat fresh is just phenomenal
+
+[53:05] products. So I would go to that or, you know, try something like Tempeh or something like that. Uh, or if you want like hard protein. Like, I'm not a such of a satan guy, but you guys like satan? No. I'm not such a satan fellow, but you could try it out. give those give those a shot. And also, I wouldn't worry about the amount of garlic unless it's actually bothering you or the acidity of those
+
+[53:27] pilaf products. They're probably just adding a small amount for flavor. And, uh, you know, I wouldn't worry so much uh, uh, about that. And if I have some time I'll go back and we'll talk about some more spices. You guys got any good spices? I like the ones that you were mentioning. I like turmeric. I like cumin a lot. I use a lot of cumin. I put it like boatloads of cumin in my guacamole, although apparently I'm told I'm not. In fact, Stas and Piper made a chili and it didn't have cumin in it. I'm like, well, then it ain't chili. It's not chili. It's some sort of Vermont meat stew. You liked it, right? Yeah. So I was like, I don't want to hear about the chili. All right, let me catch some other questions real quick before they rip me off here. Let's start with Sam, Sam writes in, hey, Dave, what are your thoughts on storing chicken eggs at room temperature? Does the type, grocery store, eggs, farmers market eggs, blah, blah, blah, just falling out of the chicken? Oh, falling out of the chicken? don't like that. I thought you like that? thought's that? Bloop. Stas hates that image is going to be in her head now. And our previous storage conditions matter. I have no problem storing eggs in the fridge. I just think they look badass in a tray on the counter. Sam. Okay, listen, Sam, the issue with storing exit room temperature is not one of safety. It's one of quality. And it depends on how long you're going to store them. If you're only going to have them for a couple of days, then it's not going to make that big of a difference. You're going to want to look up the haw unit. The haul unit is a measurement of how high the egg yolk sits up on the egg white, and it's a determinant of the quality of thick white versus thin white. And what happens at higher temperatures like storage temperatures out on the counter is that the thick white breaks down. And you also have a lot more transpiration at the higher temperatures and loss of moisture through
+
+[55:01] the egg. So you're going to get more weight loss at room temperature, through the pores in the eggshell. And you're also going to get more degradation of the thick white into thin white when it's sitting at room temperature. So if you're going to use them right away, no, it doesn't matter. If you're not going to use them right away, then please keep them in the fridge because you're just going to be losing more and more of your thick white. That makes sense? Yeah. And they, I read an article called comparing comparative proteomic analysis of egg white proteins under various storage
+
+[55:30] temperatures. And what they think that's going on is that you're getting an acceleration of the breakdown of Oval Bumen at higher
+
+[55:38] temperatures possibly due to enzymatic reactions. Okay. Got a question on someone who just got their Nomiku, but I don't have the name of who asked it, which is unfortunate. Dear Dave, Nastasia, and Crew. I recently reviewed, I received my brand new Nomiku Circulator, which is made by WePop, WePop, SwippyPop. Bam. And I'm extremely happy with a few things I've cooked in it, 63 degree egg, 55 degree script
+
+[56:00] steak, and 60 degree sausages. Those are all good, although cook the rib. I like the rib much better than the strip, but that's just me. For Christmas. This is very important. we had to get to this question. For Christmas, I've ordered a 2 rib aged prime rib for my small family, and of course, I'm planning to circulate it. I've heard Dave talk about this dish a few times, but I could not piece together all the advice from different shows. So I'd be very grateful if he could give a best practices for low temperature prime rib. I'm planning to do 55 for about 4 hours with the meat sliced into 2 steaks. I think this is enough to pasteurize it for my pregnant wife and two-year-old son. Uh, you're correct. It is. But advice on other time temperature combos is welcome. The issues I'd most like advice on are bone on or bone off, and best uses for those
+
+[56:39] bones, if they're not circulated with the meat, seasoning before circulating or just after, and whether to add any fats, aromatics in the bag, whether to chill before
+
+[56:48] searing, or just hold the cooking temperature, or drop it a bit lower, and best methods for searing. My 1st low temperature steak was pre-imposed searinus skillet, but I had some trouble with the excess surface moisture in the postsear. Besides skillet searing. The other options would be a domestic broiler or a cheap propane torch. I've kicked for the seers all, but it can't come soon enough. Are there any other pitfalls tricks you care to mention? Thanks a lot for the great information for entertainment, by the way, your previous advice to limit the oxidation of vermouth by decanting into smaller bottles worked very well. Glad to hear it. And it gave me the excuse to keep a supply of 200 milliliter cava bottles at home for when the fancy strikes. Uh, best and then we don't have your name, which sucks. But you sent it to us. So here's the deal. So on a dry age prime rib. Smell the bone. Usually when you're dry aging a piece of meat, a lot of the kind of dry age smell is on
+
+[57:38] the on the like silver skin and like stuff right around that bone. If you cook in a bag with the bone, sometimes that flavor can permeate all of the
+
+[57:46] meat and some people like that and some people hate that. So if you are a huge flavor, a fan, rather, of the, of the dry age funk that comes from a long age thing, just smell that bone and realize that that smell is going to be throughout the piece of meat if you cook that
+
+[58:01] way. If you don't want it that hardcore. And if your wife is pregnant, let me just tell you, having gone through cooking for
+
+[58:07] pregnant wife twice, same wife, 2 different pregnancies, uh, you, uh, certain smells like that can really be triggers, uh, for uh, people who are pregnant. And so you might not want to have, of making them not want to eat it. You know what I'm saying? So, if I were you and I was cooking for my wife when she was pregnant, I would cut the bone off before I
+
+[58:29] cooked it. Now, what to do with that bone? Chop that bone up, roast it off, make any sort of gravy, render the fat out of it, do whatever you can, and make a Yorkshire pudding to go with your prime rib that can be done at the same time that
+
+[58:41] thing is done because Yorkshire pudding is one of God's gifts of food. You just want to render out enough flavor and cracklings and fat so that when you whip up the Yorkshire pudding, make sure and pour it into the
+
+[58:50] hot, you know, into the roasting pan that you get that awesome beef flavor. And typically that's what I'll do. When I make a prime rib, I'll trim it all out for, I leave fat on because I like fat, but I'll trim off, you know, some of the fat and the
+
+[59:03] bones, and I'll roast them off, and I can have a Yorkshire pudding ready as soon as the steak is ready instead of waiting for 20 minutes while the rib is resting during normal cook to make your Yorkshire
+
+[59:10] pudding. So I got you covered on that bone. That's definitely what you should do Now, what you really need to also be careful of is you don't want to low temp cook the rib entire and then serve it that way because with prime
+
+[59:21] rib, you want a little bit of the overcooked parts around the edges, right? So if you're going to serve it as a standing rib, which you're not. Then what I what I do is, I would cook the cook it low temp, and then roast it in a high oven after, you let the temperature come all, you know, way down, and then you roast it in a hot oven to get that kind of prime rib
+
+[59:40] feel. If you're going to stake it, then I would sear it. I would stake it before you cook it, right? This way, you're going to have some searing around the edges. It's not just one big field of same colored meat. I would stake it before you sear it. Before you circulate it. Then I would do your pre-sear just like you did, bag it. I would cook it at that 55 for, like you say, like 4 hours is good. It'll be nice and tender. Then I would drop it to 50 for about a half hour. Uh, you know, an ice cube drop it. Just throw, set your circuit 50, throw ice cubes in. The temperature will drop down to 50, hold it there for a half hour. You're not limiting the safety because you're going to eat it right away. Then I would sear it in a super hot. I would get like cast iron thing screaming hot. Don't use a torch on it. Cast iron pants, screaming hot. Open your windows, turn on the hoods. It's going to make an immense amount of smoke. It's going to be a nightmare. Then after they're screaming hot, put, you know, enough oil to make sure that you hit all the sides of the
+
+[1:00:35] steaks. I would do 2 pots, 2 pans at once, and then do like a minute and a
+
+[1:00:40] half , 2 minutes on each side to sear it off and serve it with the Yorkshire pudding, and I think you're going to be happy with that. Yeah? Yep. Yeah. All right. Good luck with that. Let us know how it goes. Now, do we have time? We have time for one more quick one or no? We need to do some promo stuff. But so I got, I got, okay, well, David Gabua wrote in about foie gras and cooking an Arzac egg. All right. Our callers should only ask one question. That's the problem. What? Wow, we're here. All right. Why don't you do the promo stuff? and if they rip us off the air, they rip us off the air. And then I'll talk about, at the end, we'll... right, Rebecca, go ahead. What are we talking about? Oh, the Reddit tonight. You guys are Dave's doing Reddit AMA. I'm doing an ask me anything, right? That why it's AM. I don't really understand how it works, but apparently I'm going to be at a computer terminal between 6 and 8 p.m. tonight. 6.30 and 8 p.m. tonight, answering any questions. And they showed me an example and some nuclear scientist was like there, like some sort of like, you know, anti- or I guess he's anti-nuclear proliferation, something like that. And, uh, and someone asked them how to cook lamb, low temp. holy crap, I hope, 1st of all, he was totally wrong, by the way. Do not put garlic powder on your low temp lamb. This has been circulating that you should put garlic powder in the bag for right reasons. don't do it But, uh, because it tastes kind of burnt and I don't like it. But then I was like, I hope no one asked me questions about nuclear proliferation because that's not my speciality. And it says, ask me anything. But Rebecca said, don't worry, it's not answer anything. It's ask me anything. I can be like, yo, I don't know anything about it. I don't know squat about that. I don't know anything about. I mean, I do know something about that. It's true. It's true. You don't know the answer to it, you can say you don't know the answer. you know, that's the smartest thing you could ever say. Like, my favorite thing to say, I don't know the answer. I don't know. what other promotional stuff do we got to do? I think that's it. All right, okay. So, like, until they, they're going to turn me off the air when I do it, but I'm going to read David's question on
+
+[1:02:29] Foi. First of all, and Arzac egg. I going to do the RZA gig first. First of all, I'm a series all Kickstarter, Kickstarter supporter, so I'll be looking forward to having my very own seers all in June. Also, the wife and I had a great time at Booker and Dax in June. We chatted with you very briefly about the centrifuge. I just bought off of eBay, finished our libations and headed off to WD 50 for dinner. Good choices, Booker and D WD 50, like both of those places. We really need to make it back to NYC soon and see what new stuff you guys are cooking up there. We've got a big dinner coming up and we want to wow the 3 couples. My wife and I are inviting. I have 2 separate questions related to this, but if you only have time for one, then the 1st one is more important. I'm serving seared foie gras, but I don't have a sears all yet, I'm sorry for you, because sears all is the best way to do this. So how should I cook and sear it? I'm getting a dozen 2.5 ounce prepackaged slices of flaw and don't want to render too much fat out from each slice. Also, these guys are sensitive so I can't serve it rare. It really needs to be pasteurized. With this in mind, I was going to cook the slices, sous vide at 131 for 20 to 30 minutes, and then steer one side only. I know that each step I would lose precious flaw fat. Well, bagging the floss slices with some fat, either clarify butter or pre-rendering the floss safe from previous applications, reduce the amount of fat. each slice loses in the water bath. For steering, how about pan searing with generous amount of fat already in the pan? Maybe a full on shallow fryer, even deep fry, since my oven broiler really sucks. And my toast torch mostly sucks. The only other option is to throw them onto a gridiron to get my charcoal, weber blazing hot. not afraid to do this, even in the winter, but it will not be fun. All right, here's some answers on this. I'd be very careful. The extra fat is not going to help you. And if you're rendering 20, 30 minutes at 131 F is not actually enough to pasteurize it. So the question when I say sensitive is, are they sensitive to the fact that it hasn't been cooked or are they sensitive in the sense that they might have an
+
+[1:04:15] immune compromised immune system, right? If it's just that they're sensitive about whether or not it's cooked or not. If you're doing a torchon traditionally, you just do a rapid, like 92nd dip in like simmering water. And I think you're probably going to get less fat loss that way than trying to pasteurize it at like a higher temp for a longer period of time.
+
+[1:04:34] I think you're going to get a better texture. Then you can cool it down again in the bag. And then, um, and then from there, I would do, I would just do like a screaming hot on a dry pan. You're going to do much better because you're going to get a faster crust. You gonna get less bleed out from the edges. Remember, if you put it in deep fat, you're heating the edges too, so you're going to get more bleed out all over all over everything. I would put it in a dry pan. I've always been taught to put it in a dry pan. I would get it hot and put it in a dry pan if the hottest thing you own is your
+
+[1:05:02] Weber. You could put your pan on the Weber and get it to go, but didn't do a quick sear off like that. Just be careful with it. Also, uh, since you got a dozen 2.5 uh, prepackaged slices, what I would do, and I did this when I was testing out, I had to do the 1st time I cooked it with the sears all
+
+[1:05:17] even, I did this a test. I got like an extra slice and I just tested that sucker first. I would take your pre-packed slices, they come in backpags, so they'll probably not cook backpags. And then I would just do like uh, like a 30 or 30 or 42nd dunk in uh, in simmering water, put it directly in ice water after that to stop to cook out on it. Then after it's cold, I would cut it open. I would hit the one side and then put it on a serving tray in like
+
+[1:05:43] a in like a warm place so that the center of it can warm up the temperature. I would try it with one. And then if you can get it done with one, then you're going to get it to work with all of them. But let me know how it works out. Okay, two. And then this is the last one I can do, but since it's for a Christmas holiday, since it's for a holiday dinner styles, I have to do it. I'm doing my own version of an Arzac egg. So, uh, Arzac, you know, their uh, famous uh, father, uh, daughter, chef team, the Arzacs in Spain, uh, and they do this egg where what they do is, is they, uh, they
+
+[1:06:10] put, uh, uh, they put uh, plastic wrap into a ramekin, and then they put like nice flavored fats, like duck fat. It was actually in one of the early lucky peaches in the ramen thing. Uh, and uh, in the ramen episode of the, they call them episodes, issues of the uh, of uh, Lucky Peach. And they use, I think, duck fat, olive oil, and, I think, truffle oil in it. And then, but they, so they paint the plastic wrap with this and add a little oil. They crack the egg in, but they also can put in salt, pepper and spices, which is why it's, I guess, an interesting technique as opposed to, let's say, just cooking low temp in shell, which is what I normally do for poaching in shell.
+
+[1:06:40] And then you tie string around the plastic wrap to, in case the egg, and then you can poach the egg at traditional temperatures in water, but it's never touched the
+
+[1:06:50] water, and it's already pre-kind of oiled and spiced. So it's an interesting technique, uh, uh, Arzac A. Anyway, so just so you people, if you want to know what RZAC egg is, that was explanation. So here's the question. As far as I can tell, no one else has tried what I'm about to tell you, and this might be my very 1st culinary invention, I think, instead of using cling film for the Arzac egg, you put the egg into a spherical ice mold, and you can see these on
+
+[1:07:14] Amazon.com, close up the mold and then inject additional egg white through the hatch on the top with a syringe until the mold is completely filled.
+
+[1:07:21] Uh, then uh, sous vide at 190 F. Then with question mark, I've tried doing this for different time intervals. It can't seem to get the egg whites to set properly, so the egg hold the shape and doesn't fall apart. And the yolk is somewhat runny. Do you have any thoughts on strategies I can pursue to make this work? Thanks for any advice you can give. David Gabwop. Okay, here's what I would do. One, make sure you're oiling the inside of your stuff so you get good release. Injecting it might be breaking up the structure of the egg white. Like, remember in the original Arzac egg. They're not breaking up the structure of the egg white. They're leaving it entire, which is why I kind of poach it together that way. Uh, so, uh, you know, I would try to see whether you can get away with not doing that, add a fat to
+
+[1:07:58] it instead of adding extra egg white and do it in a way that doesn't disrupt the egg white. The other thing I'd be careful of is that I looked up the website that you sent me and they say that it's top rack dishwasher safe, meaning maybe not bottom rack. Find out what kind of plastic that sucker is. Uh, because something like polyethylene is not going to be able to hold up that well. It's totally food safe, but it's not going to be able to hold up that well at simmering temperatures. If it's probably propylene, you're probably going to be okay. So just make sure that the temperature is going to be all right. And then I wouldn't even try. I wouldn't even use a circle on that, I would just simmer it the way the RZA guys do because you're
+
+[1:08:31] gonna want a very fast, rapid set of the egg white proteins in order to get a nice surface and to get it to release properly from the mold.
+
+[1:08:38] And with that, they're going to kick me off the air. Happy holidays, cooking issues.
+
+[1:08:51] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Thank, thank.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects,
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+[0:04] discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our
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+[0:20] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. Today's program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage using 100%
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+[0:38] pasture raised, certified humane Berkshire cuts. For more information, visit
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+[0:42] edwardsvam.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:01] Hello, Happy New Year and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. You just coming to you live, my brother's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one, right? One o'clock. On the Tuesdays, join as usual. With Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, I do. Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. We got Jack. Oh, sorry. Oh, we do have we have no Jack. Jack hates us. We have Joe in the booth today. I got you confused because you have a new haircut, Joe. Yeah, actually, I've been called Jack several times now because I have short hair. Really? Yeah, a couple times. You know, I shouldn't say this, but since Jack's not here and I know I know he's not listening to the program, because he's totally sick of us, every time Nastasia sees someone with
+
+[1:43] the roughly jack facial hair and like that kind of like, he has like a... Yeah, like a beanie ski cap kind of a thing with
+
+[1:51] Jake. Whenever she sees that look, which is becoming ever more common. He's like, yo, is that Jack? I'm like, I'm like, you're so you're so racist against and he's a Manhattan guy now. So you can't be, you can't call him the Brooklyn, the kind of the Brooklyn cool hipster look anymore because like he's now from
+
+[2:08] Manhattan. And since I feel like he's like, you know, like Jack is the model for all that look, like, you know, once he switches to Manhattan,
+
+[2:17] like it's over. Now it's Manhattan look. Yeah, soon, everyone in Manhattan is going to be dressing like Jack. Scraggly little beard and everything. Whoa, scraggly. No, I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way. It really works for him. It really does. Yeah. All right. So, call into questions two, 718-4972-1289-718-4972128. No, Joe, come on, man. I'm gonna get fired. Jack's listening. That's my, that's actually your next band. Like when you do a side project, you should be called scraggly in a good way. Maybe that's the album. Jack's listening. The album's scragging. It's actually here, right? Like, Jack's not listening. Yeah, exactly. I'm hoping Jack calls in from the office. This would just be great. Wow. So what happened? We haven't been back in a long time because we hit on Christmas and then we hit on the New Year's. So what's been going on, Stas? How is that worry in California? California for Christmas, Connecticut for New Year's. Yeah, how was that? It was okay. Yeah. It's okay. How was yours? Good. You know, I made, oh, we haven't spoken. Have you spoken to people since this year's whole thing is done or no? Uh, no, no. No, yeah, well, our series all thing is over. For those of you that, I don't know, don't, you know, 1st time listening to something. We made a product called the Sears All, and Nastasia hates this. I'm going to make her do it. Estas, do you? Does it sear? Does it sear only some things? Most things? Everything? All? Sears all? Sears all. Anyway, so we had a Kickstarter for this, and we sold like something on the order of like 2800 of them. Uh, and it was actually uh, the 8th, we looked this up yesterday, the 8th largest food Kickstarter of all times.
+
+[3:55] Food Kickstarter. Jack would have been hit the applause button. Yeah, yeah. All right, all right. Damn, no game, no game. And, uh, yeah, so we did we did well. And, you know, I'm especially proud of what we raise considering that the individual donations, it only costs like $65 to do it.
+
+[4:15] So, for those of you that missed it, Nastasia has set up an online shop where you can buy it. So, shop starter, some, I guess. We'll announce it in a couple days. All right, whatever. So it didn't happen. I would just made that crap. It's ready to go. Yeah, all right, whatever. So anyway, so here's the thing. So I did the prime rib for the for the Christmas. My mom, right? I've said this before. I love my mom. Mom's a great cook. My mom is the reason why, you know, I cook. Duh. everyone's mom is the reason why they exist. She's also the reason kind of, you know, why I think I like to cook so much. But her kitchen is extremely poorly outfitted. Like, so, I mean, and this is going to sound like I'm a complete, like, jackwad. She has no low temperature cooking, which is not part of the poor outfitting. Stas is giving me the your jerk look. Uh, but, like, she shouldn't have a low temperature thing. So anyway, so I brought my low temperature rig, which is a half-leck sand. I brought, oh, by the way, we got the Nomiku in on the break. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet. Anyway, so we got the low temperature rig. I cooked some deer the other day, low temperature. I don't have a New Year's resolution and not be on tangent. We'll talk about deer in a minute. Anyway, so I, uh, so I did the the prime rib. My mom bought the entire freaking prime rib, which was so big. It wouldn't fit in a half Lexan. So I had to, and, you know, the butcher did that thing where they cut the bones off, then they rolled the individual prime. They rolled a prime rib and then re-tie it to the bones. know what I'm talking about? Whatever. Old school technique. So, uh, anyhoo, I pulled, I I took, I disassembled the butcher's work, cut the bone into 3 plates, cut 2 of the rib sections off of the prime rib, bagged them separately, bagged the whole thing, and one of those, you know those ziplocs that are intended for, not food gray, please, no calls
+
+[5:56] on this. You know, the ones that are meant to like roll up comforters and stuff for like camping. That's the only thing she had big enough to hold this giant prime rib. And I wanted to present it basically hole. So I did the whole sucker at 55 for like 5 hours,
+
+[6:10] 5 or 6 hours, then dropped it, then cooled it off, cooled it off, then threw it in a 500 degree oven to overcook the outside a little bit and give it
+
+[6:18] that, and then finished off with dual sears all. The stars, I put that, I put that picture off. You you... It'll be up on the site where you can buy sears all. The dual sears all, like, got to go, you know, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, big, big dumb. Oh, I also did some low temperature deer. Not the one Lucas said because that one is at the at the headquarters there. But, uh... Do you know what cut he gave us? Do you remember? I think. So I, yeah, I did loin, which is tough, but I did it low temp, worked, worked great. So like these 2 friends of Dax's girlfriend were, you know, were over. He's eight. Anyway, so they were over and the cousins. So this 12-year-old, it's her and her sister they're eating. And we thought that dad had shot the deer. They brought it from Illinois. They're from southern Illinois, like near the border down there. And, uh, so like halfway through the meal, like, so, you know, uh, so who shot this deer? She's like, I did. I was like, whoa! Like, this, like, like, 13 year old, like, you know, girl shot this deer. I was like, that's awesome. I was like, how, you know, what size was it? 6 pointer. I was like, whoa. I love that. Love that. Anyway, we ought to get on some questions. We never going to finish this stuff in time. Although I have to say, I don't know what made me think of this because Stas, you were over yesterday because it was cold and you didn't want to open the gate to the lab by yourself.
+
+[7:38] So you're over at my house because I live near where I work. Thank God. I hate commutes. I hate them. Anyway. Me too. Yeah, the commute. Well, hey look, your choice. Nastasi used to live down near where we worked. And she was like, I hate it down here. I'm moving back to Hell's Kitchen. So 2 words, your choice. Your choice. Your choice. Anyhoo, so I moved apartments, and I'm going to talk later about it because someone asked about a kitchen. But I moved and I used to have black floors and I have black lab, dog. So I didn't think the dog shed so much. I'm moving to a place with gray floors. I was like, oh my god, we're dark shit so much. And so I bought a robotic vacuum cleaner. And the Roomba, the new one, which is pretty sweet. And like, here's the thing, right? Everyone's like, oh, maybe that's ridiculous, whatever. I love this damn thing. I love this robotic faction. It's a little loud. No, it's much less loud than a normal vacuum for you. And you have to run it longer. Well, but yeah, but you can program it to run when you're not there. Anyhoo, it runs around the house and it plugs itself back in when it's done and so it gets rid of all the dog hair and I love it. And I was thinking, you know what? What reminded me of it. And the reason I'm bringing it up today is that, you know how we always get these questions about,
+
+[8:41] and whatever, because we do, we do technology and food, right? What about 3D printing food? What's the future of food? Future this, future of that, right? You know what I'm saying? Right? Stas is like, hey, future this. Come on. That stars is doing the point, the jersey point. But the, uh, oh, so she said, um, you know, it's like, everyone always asks these questions and, you know, what they fundamentally don't get is even though we use a lot of new techniques and technologies, like, you know, we like cooking,
+
+[9:10] right? You know, we like human beings that make food that they think is delicious, that they are proud to serve to either their
+
+[9:19] customers, or their guests, or they're proud to make that they've created something. It's a product that comes from themselves. And that's, you know, why good cooks like to cook, right? I mean, that's that's really the impetus is that you can make something that's high quality. You get to do it every day. You can constantly hone your skills and it gives a little bit of yourself to someone else, right? Isn't that why we like to do it? So obviously, you don't want a robot making your freaking food. Like, whatever, fast food. Yes, yes, whatever, fine industrial food. Yes, great. Yes we all love Twinkies. But, like, what I'm saying, you don't want a robot making your food on a daily basis. I was thinking, but, like, the vacuum robot is perfect, and here's the crux of it. And this is why I don't want my food 3D printed regularly. I mean, there are applications, right? But the vacuum cleaner is a good idea. No one says this. That thing does vacuuming just like my mom used to do. I can only find someone that can vacuum in the same way that my mom used to vacuum.
+
+[10:17] Then life would be great. You know what I'm saying? It's a frequent vacuum. Nobody cares. They just wanted to run. They wanted to get underneath the damn, you know what I mean? Anyways, not a clapping day. Yeah, not for our stellar Kickstarter. Christian from Denmark writes in on vacuum reduction. Hello, Nastasia. Hope this is the right place to send questions for cooking issues. It was, because here it is. If so, tell the whole crew from yet another fan from Denmark, we are another friend from Denmark. We are Legion by Danish standards anyway. You've never been to Denmark. I was supposed to go to Denmark to Odens, like home of the home of the
+
+[10:55] marzipan, which, by the way, marzipan, delicious. Delicious. Do you like Marzipan? I don't really like it. Why? I don't like almond paste. Color. What? All right, we'll get back to this question today. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, my name is Johnny. from Madison. How you doing? Wisconsin? Yeah, what about Madison is there? Cold there. Oh, yeah, how cold is it right now? It's only like 14 below right now. It was 23 yesterday though. See, here's what I love, right? Like here in New York, we're like griping about this, like, you know, whatever it is, like 5 Fahrenheit or whatever, and you guys would be laughing at us like fake
+
+[11:28] northern people as like a real northern person. If you weren't getting slammed so hard right now yourself, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I definitely, uh, there's not much else to concentrate on. Do you have good winter gear? I was once in Sweden, and although I was wrecked, I was above the Arctic Circle. The dog sled lady who was running the musher, she said, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad coats. I was like, hmm, very Zen. I do, I think there is, like, once you've lived there for a while, there's definitely that opinion. Like, you just, like, don't complain, just get a better setup. Yeah, nice. All right. So what are you cooking today up there? Well, I, I, you, you actually interacted on Twitter because I sent you a picture to the broken centrifuge. Oh, that's you. holy crap. How much did, so for those of you that obviously, like, I had this Twitter account at cooking issues, if you want to go to it, and I got a question in, like, you know, like, well, not really a question, more of just like a photo. I bought a centrifuge, and the buckets broke, and the inside of the thing got host. I wanted to know what the damage was. So give us a little bit of background on what's going on here. So, um, there was a 2nd photo that I sent you. had the, the, the, the inside of the centrifuge, but uh, yeah, so basically,
+
+[12:41] got a centrifuge through the university. pretty cheap. Uh, kind of checked out. It was a Beckman one, a little bit older, and it had a glass. Had a glass cover, which was awesome because you could see inside. Also terrifying. But, uh, anyway, so, I, uh, I got, actually, I ordered a new rotor, uh, that I, that I was
+
+[13:07] using the, the old buckets. Right. And, uh, the, the bucket broke and
+
+[13:12] it flew into the, I mean, stopped the centrifuge right away. I bet. I've never, were you in the room when it happened? I wasn't, but there was someone else in there and he said it scared the living crap out of him. I bet like how loud was it? Did they say? Yeah, they said the dishwasher was like 30 feet
+
+[13:33] away and he said he felt a move. Wow. And it moved, it moved 3 feet. Wow. Wow. And it was it was doing about 4000 RPM,
+
+[13:44] so. Yeah, so okay, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, little background. So we're dealing with, we're dealing with benchtop,
+
+[13:51] desktop centerfuge, I think like some, that with the Beckman Coulter with the, with the Plexi top is somewhere in the, somewhere in the 3 liter range, right? It holds roughly 3 liters. Yep, 3 liters. Swinging bucket centrifuge. And I've never dealt with a rotor failure, uh, or even really seen pictures of rotor failures on the swinging buckets, but my point of contention has always been that these units, even when they fail, are much safer than the larger, faster
+
+[14:18] ones, because the G forces involved are comparatively low. So it's this very interesting for me to hear. Now, the buckets that, actually, interestingly, your buckets were not aluminum, right? Doesn't the Beckman Coulter has stainless steel press buckets or no? Yeah, these ones were staining still. I actually have aluminum as well. Right. So, I mean, aluminum buckets. Aluminum when you're in, so a centrifuge, again, for those of you, they spin and they separate things based on density. However, usually the, in a swinging bucket rotor, the buckets, they swing and they're buckets, hence swinging bucket rotor. And this is what we use mostly in the kitchen because they have a much larger capacity for their
+
+[14:54] size than what's called a fixed angle rotor, which normally uses tubes or bottles. And, um, the problem is most buckets are made out of
+
+[15:02] aluminum, and aluminum, uh, tends to fatigue over time with flex, and so you get
+
+[15:08] cracks, and then they can catastrophically fail. And when they do, so think of this. If you have a swinging bucket rotor, each rotor has its own, each bucket has its own weight plus an extra, you know, 750 grams of product in it, that's 750
+
+[15:23] grams, if you're doing 4000 Gs, it has the equivalent weight of like 3000 kilos or something like this.
+
+[15:31] So it's it's no jokes. So when that thing flies off, it's it's really no joke. Very surprised that the Beckman Coulter's stainless steel buckets broke because they don't typically show fatigue
+
+[15:43] failures the way aluminum does. What was the failure mode of the bucket, do you know? I, uh, I can't, it's like 78,000. I, I'd have to look at it, but I, I remember just taking a peek at it. No, but what, what, how did the bucket actually break? Like, what part of it broke? Oh, at the top, right? I mean exactly where you would think it is. It's kind of like at the point where you latch it onto the rotor. Right. So yeah, so in a normal, in a normal aluminum bucket, it's, it's probably machine, right? And then there's these 2 like big things where these pins, these fat pins from the rotor fit
+
+[16:19] in and the buckets slip onto them. And in the stainless one, it looks like it's made out of sheet metal, right? I've never used the stainless ones. I'm frankly, is it possible that those the stainless ones are meant to only work with inserts and that they kind of flexed in under the force and popped
+
+[16:35] out? I mean, that can be the only thing I could think of. Did it actually tear at the pin or did it flex and pop out at the pin? I have no idea. It's probably too many, yeah. Yeah, literally, like, it broke off. I'll send you another photo. Yeah, get a close-up. I'd like to see a close-up of where you think the failure started, so I can figure. anyway, so onto your question. Enough of peppering you with questions. What's your question? Well, okay, so I had a bunch of questions. I mean, we started using it and it's been pretty useful and I figured out quite a bit. But yeah, I was, one of the questions was, you know, what we talked about right now is like, do different
+
+[17:10] buckets need to use the inserts, you know? So, maybe we don't know. Yeah, I mean, I've never used this. The one of the reasons I stayed away from the Beckman Coulters specifically is that the insides of their buckets are square.
+
+[17:25] Right? No, these are round. Are they round insides? Okay, so some of them have the square buckets and I don't like square, I don't like square buckets without inserts. The reason being that if you were to, if you were to take a attack, a strobe tack, which you can buy, I've done it with mine, which is a terrible idea, and you, but you put
+
+[17:45] a, uh, because I don't have a glass top on mine. Uh, and you, um, put a, in fact, I think someone,
+
+[17:52] but Coulter, Beckman Coulter, somewhat and makes one that's meant to do this, and you just fire a strobe tack at it. You can get it to fire correctly either by tuning it by hand with a strobe tack or by putting a little reflective piece of tape on to trigger the tack.
+
+[18:06] And, um, with an external signal. You can freeze it. When you freeze it, you'll see that as the thing is spinning, the liquids inside are rotating and scouring on the inside of the bucket.
+
+[18:17] So my feeling has always been that in a square bucket where you have those side seams, that as it slows down, rather than settling any like kind of less well formed parts of the puck at the bottom of the of the
+
+[18:30] thing are going to are going to get refluffed up to the top. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've always thought round bottoms were good. But anyway, so go ahead. Yeah. Um, but mostly what I, questions were, is just about using clarifying components, like,
+
+[18:44] obviously the pecking X is pretty useful, but do you find that if stuff fits for a day, that it
+
+[18:49] goes cloudy again or stuff like that? I saw like I did banana juice and onion juice in it. They both got cloudy. Right. So here's what happens. So you use the pet and X, and typically, especially on onion juice, I've noticed this, you like, we'll do like a double spin on it, because it doesn't knock out. The Pecknex doesn't get rid, and I don't even know, frankly, whether it's all pectin or there's other kind of suspended hydrocoloids there. But what you'll do is you'll do an initial clarification run and the sucker will look clear. The same thing happens, by the way, when you do quick Agar clarification and things like this. So it looks pretty clear, and then you let it sit in the fridge, and then all of a sudden it kind of gets these wispy
+
+[19:28] things, and sometimes it even goes full cloudy, or sometimes you get a precipitator settled out. And what's happening is, is that over time, uh, you know, the, these things that are, are soluble are in
+
+[19:39] solution, and therefore not making it cloudy, will agglomerate together, uh, coalesce and then become large enough to partially drop out a solution and make it cloudy
+
+[19:49] again. So the solution there is just to, uh, or the answer, I should say, is to, uh, re-spin. And we do I do that a lot. And what I don't know, because I've never done a lot of testing on it because I just haven't had the time to really sit out and do it,
+
+[20:06] is it's like, okay, if you do the onion juice and you just let it sit for 2 days before you do your 1st spin, would you still need to do a 2nd spin?
+
+[20:13] I don't know. You know, I don't know whether or not like removing all of that massive stuff is what allows these other things to that, or that other pectants, whatever, to,
+
+[20:22] uh, agglomerate together or whether or not you would get a better or a simpler result, if you just let it sit for a couple days before you spun it out. I don't know. But it's a fairly common phenomenon to get some flock out and have to do a respin. Okay, so if I resend it, I'm not going to see the cloudy again. No, you're done. Yeah. And so I noticed that you do it for about 15 minutes normally on a lot of stuff. Is, is there a benefit to do it longer or shorter or? Well, I mean, the longer you go. So again, when you turn on, if you were to, if you were to get a strobe tack, which I would, if I were you, by the way, if I'm talking about
+
+[20:55] guys is a, it's a strobe light that's, that you can adjust how the rate of
+
+[21:00] firing and it allows you to freeze things like centrifuge buckets, like visually freeze
+
+[21:04] them so you can see what's going on. And if you were to, if you fire up the centrifuge and you look at it with a strobe, you, uh, what you see is, is that the juice clarifies very, very quickly. And then, um, once it's settling out. Now, there are some things that take a long time to clarify out and you have to spin for a long, long time. But in general, most of the products that we use are clarifying relatively quickly. But what you need to do is run it long enough to compress the puck so that it doesn't resuspend as it starts coming
+
+[21:37] back as the speed starts slowing back down. So, you know, a lot of times I'm doing, um, you know, for events, we're doing a lot of product, and so I try to get my spin times down as as low as possible without compromising quality. And so usually 15 is good enough. And so I don't try to go longer. Sometimes if I'm really in a bind, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll cut it to 10, anything below 10 and I have a lot of times I'll have a lot of resuspension problems. I mean, some things are easier than others. Bananas drop like a rock. You know what I mean? Like once you hit them with Pectinex, banana pulp just like slams to the bottom of your of your thing and it's, you know, not a
+
+[22:13] problem, whereas other things, you know, they take a little more spinning. Like tomato usually throws a flock. And, you know, if you want to also reduce your problems with that deeration before you spin, makes it settle a lot faster because you don't have as many problems with air bubbles having to pop before it goes down.
+
+[22:26] Surprising fact, you know, 4000 G is not enough to pop kind of the micro air bubbles. And that's why a lot of times you'll get, especially on something like tomatoes where you're blending it in a blender and it traps so much pulp,
+
+[22:38] you'll get a mat on the top. And I don't think that mat is caused by things that are inherently less dense, like oil. I'm pretty sure that that mat is just a trapped air mat. Do you cook the bananas 1st or do you have to do? No cook. No cook, but you have to make sure to use ripe bananas because raw bananas contain starch and the starch will not settle out on a centrifuge to get in our centrifuges anyway. Like to get it to settle out, you need to, you know, you just wait a long, long time, the starch will eventually settle out, or you
+
+[23:08] could probably eat the starch with enamelase. But the issue is, I'm not sure whether the amylate starch can withstand the alcohol environment that we do in a typical kind of
+
+[23:17] banana hostino situation. You know what I mean? Yeah, we, uh, I pressure cooked them 1st with some baking soda and like caramelized them and it turned out really good.
+
+[23:27] I was that was my favorite. Nice, nice. Um, and then just, I, I, I, I picked up 2 centrifuges. Because, you might contact the university had it. But the other one is uh pretty is not as quite as fast as about 2000 Gs. Right. Is there much I can do with that or? You're gonna have to probably, is it fixed angle or swinging bucket? Ah, a big angle. Okay, so the good news for you is that fixed angle, fixed angle rotors tend to get a better level of clarification at lower
+
+[24:01] G forces than a swinging bucket does. So you can get good results with a fixed angle running at 2000 Gs. You kind of probably have to spin a little longer and obviously, you know, you probably don't have the same capacity in it. But if you look at a fixed angle rotor. Fixed angle rotor is holding the tubes at a relatively steep angle.
+
+[24:23] And what that means is, is that the average particle that you need to clarify out of solution needs to only travel a very short distance before it hits the side of the
+
+[24:33] tube. And then it's scoured down towards the bottom where it pellets and forms a puck, but they have very strong pelleting capabilities, which means that you can do the kind of work that we're doing at relatively lower speeds and still get good results.
+
+[24:48] So I'd say it should work for a lot of the recipes, not all of them. Um, and then I know to use the wine clarifying. Um, chemicals as well? Is that helpful or is it, I mean, obviously helpful, but how helpful? Oh incredibly helpful. Like, so, you know, when I'm doing lime juice or grapefruit juice. I usually use it on citrus products, um, you know, it, uh,
+
+[25:14] this stuff almost auto clarifies. If you let lime juice sit around and you do the kiesel saw and kaeda sand, which are the 2 wine finding agents I use in conjunction with SPL, it'll settle just like apple
+
+[25:26] juice will. And the only reason I centrifuge it is to increase my yield. I mean, I'd probably only get a without a centrifuge, only, and someone asked me this question later, and I'm going to get to it, hopefully, but you only get a yield of about 50%. Whereas, you know, with a centrifuge, I get something like 98% yield off of lime juice. Very good. All right. Well, I think the thing I'm glad that it broke in some ways because now I know like a worst case scenario.
+
+[25:51] That is the worst. You have experienced the worst case scenario. It's all uphill from here, my friend. But great. All right. thanks so much. All right, thank you. Stay warm. All right. So back to Christian Hall from Denmark. Thanks so much for your hugely inspirational radio show and blog. very nice. We like to hear comments, right, stars. I have university background and philosophy and literature. Well, I have philosophy. You have literature. Yeah. Me, aren't we fiction? Because I'm a jerk. I miss fiction. I'm gonna start reading it again. Yeah? You know, my wife, who is editing, edited my, uh, you know, well, I have an editor, Maria
+
+[26:27] Guaracelli, but who, like, my wife is, like, you know, red, and is the reason why I'm considered a writer because my wife reads all this stuff. She goes, Dave, you need to read fiction so that you're writing this and stuff. Yeah, that's what she said. My wife's so hardcore. Anyway, philosophy of literature, learning about an analytical approach to cooking that's at the center of the modernist movement, viewing a dish as a series of problems to be understood and solved, was what convinced me there might be a point
+
+[26:50] of putting my 30-year-old self through cooking school, and today, 4 years later, I'm running my own catering company. We've got versions of your gel and ice cream on the menu at least once a week and are running our centrifuge based on your recommendations every day. Nice. I like that. And you know, oh, like I said before, I've never been to Denmark someday. Actually, it's not true. I flew into Denmark to go to Sweden, but it doesn't count. It's like saying I was in blah, blah. I was in the airport. No, you weren't there. All right. Here are my questions. For a while now, I've been experimenting with vacuum reductions using the aspirator slash during hot plate
+
+[27:20] method outline and modernist cuisine, but I'm finding that running the aspirator is too much of a hassle for us to really start making proper use of it.
+
+[27:26] Could I switch to a diaphragm pump instead? And if so, what would some of the advantages disadvantages be? I've also been toying with the idea of adding a cold finger? Cold finger? I love that word cold finger, don't you? Cold finger. Cold finger, condenser, and receiving flask in between the boiling flask and the pump to try out distillations.
+
+[27:44] Would this work even remotely well, or should I just hold off until we can afford a proper
+
+[27:48] roto app, a.k.a. rotary evaporator? Keep up the great work. Looking forward to getting my Sears all. Thanks, Christian Hall. Okay. So for those of you that have no idea what we're just talking about, here's the thing. So when you want to do reductions of things, let's just say port wine, because everyone wants to reduce port wine, right? Don't you like a port wine reduction? Yeah, yeah, shut. Uh, she, uh, so the problem doing normal reductions is obviously they happen at high temperature. So by putting something under a vacuum, like in a rotary evaporator, a vacuum still, you can do reductions at low
+
+[28:22] temperatures. So you get very, very fresh punchy flavors that haven't been altered by high, high heat. Now, the average bartender. So in a rotary evaporator, that's one of the things you can do. So the average bartender cares mostly about the distillate, right? And so this aspirator thing that we're talking about, which I'll explain in a 2nd, doesn't really help with that. But the average cook cares mostly about the reductions. What's in the reduction flask. And so for that is the aspirator. So Chris Young and Nathan Mirvold, you know, and Maxine, when they were writing the monitors cuisine, one of the things they said, hey, look, it's not just for rich people, is they bought an aspirator. An aspirator is uses a kind of like a Ventura effect. You blow water. It doesn't have to be water. actually, it could be anything else, but they use water out of a faucet. Uh, as it goes through, uh, that entrains air and blasts it down and it creates a vacuum. And this is how, you know, in high school, you used to make a, well, at least me, I did, because I didn't do it in college. you know, this is how you'd make a vacuum in the lab, you'd have these water aspirators and you'd run, they'd run water into the sink. And now that, and they'd work. Now the advantage of this kind of a punt. And so then what he did is he hooked this up to an Erland Meyer flask, which is a square, you know, flat bottomed flask, uh, with a neck, the neck went to the aspirator pump. Uh, and then, uh, you know, you have your product in there, you have a stir plate to keep it stirred, so it doesn't bubble over, and you heat it a little
+
+[29:41] bit because if you don't heat it at all, it'll just get colder and colder as stuff evaporates, it's
+
+[29:46] evaporated cooling. So you have to heat it even if you're doing room temperature distillation, and you suck the vacuum, and there you go. You get your reductions at low temperature. Now, theoretically, this is gonna work. However, aspirators, have 2 fundamental problems. 1st problem. They don't suck a very good vacuum, period, because the amount of vacuum you can suck is dependent upon the vapor pressure of
+
+[30:07] water at whatever temperature you're using. So, uh, if you're heating your product up, right, uh, you know, up to a reasonable level, then you have a good deal of difference between the boiling point of your product and the current vapor pressure of water at your cold water
+
+[30:22] tip. One of the ways to solve that is to recirculate the water in the aspirator and put ice into it. This lowers the vapor pressure of the water and allows you to get higher vacuums. The other disadvantage of aspirators is they have abysmal, abysmal pump rates. So you can, you know, pump very little actual volume of
+
+[30:41] air, regardless of how good your, um, your, you know,
+
+[30:46] the the ultimate vacuum you can attain is. Now, one way to get around this is to gang multiple aspirators together, like, and, you know,
+
+[30:51] I've said this many times, but, you know, you know, I don't know, 10 years ago when I was 1st looking
+
+[30:55] into or whatever, 8 years, whatever it is, looking into doing vacuum distillation, I turn to whoever, you know, the people who, uh, you know, need vacuum distillation and can't go to normal channels and don't have money, meth
+
+[31:08] producers. And so meth producers online, they used to, I don't know, where they still haven't had a bunch of websites on how to basically, you know, set up meth labs at home. And one of the things they're concerned with is vacuum, vacuum distillation. And so they would take what's called a float. They would go to Home Depot, they would buy a flowjet garden pump, which is like, you know, like to pump water and they would pump it through multiple ganged aspirators hooked up to PVC piping.
+
+[31:32] And I tried it, and it I wasn't making meth, was not making meth. Uh, and uh, but they, you know, it worked okay, but still, it chokes up. It's not the best thing for it for doing a vacuum reduction. So I really, you know, if you're going to be doing a lot of it, I think you can play around with the aspirator, but Matt. Now, if you're going to switch to a diaphragm pump, diaphragm, so the 2 main pumps, once you throw the aspirator out, the 2 main pumps that you're going to be dealing with are either a rotary
+
+[31:59] vein pump oil pump. And the only really affordable ones you can get are the styles for refrigeration. So, Robin Air, uh, you know, yellow jacket, um, things like this, JB. These are refrigeration pumps, and they make a boatload of them because every refrigeration tech in the
+
+[32:14] country, probably in the world. I sure it's done the same way everywhere. They take this refrigeration pumps and they pump the old refrigerant out of your of your
+
+[32:23] refrigerator and they have to suck like an amazing vacuum to completely dry down and get all the contaminants out of your refrigeration system before they recharge it.
+
+[32:30] So there's a lot of them out there and they're relatively inexpensive. And they have a relatively high pump rate and they have a relatively good ultimate vacuum down in the, you know, like, you know,
+
+[32:42] couple of millibars you can get down to, which is pretty damn good. more than you need. They also have a fairly decent toleration of entrained moisture. Now, your problem. Now, if you go to diaphragm pumps, they don't get nearly as good a vacuum. They're a lot more expensive, but they don't volatilize or put oil or smells into your kitchen and they're a lot cleaner
+
+[33:09] than, and they're a lot quieter than the rotary vein pumps. So that's the kind of the trade-offs. Neither one of them is designed to handle large quantities of vapor. That's the only advantage of the aspirator is that the aspirator can handle as much vapor as it can pump
+
+[33:26] out. It can handle because it's not getting contaminated by the vapor. It's just shooting the vapor out into whatever your your, you know, whatever the trough is that you're putting it into. So in order to use either a diaphragm pump or a rotary vein pump, you will need a cold trap of some sort. So in order to do this at all, this is a long answer to your question, you're going to need the
+
+[33:47] cold finger to condense your product back because the secret of distillation, which is what you're doing, whether or not you think of it as reduction or not, what you're actually doing in a closed system, which is what you're going to need to do to get your vacuum to not choke on you, is to do actual distillation, and you need to supply as much cooling
+
+[34:05] power, to recondense your vapor as you supplied to, um, to boil it off in the 1st place. And there are pumps, you know, like BOC Edwards makes a dry vein pump that I'm here can handle large amounts of vapor, but you're talking like three, four, three,
+
+[34:21] 4000, you know, bucks. Uh, So is it worth trying to do distillations that way before you get a roto app? Let me put it this way. Uh, I did it. I got products I thought tasted good, but all it did was wet my appetite to buy a
+
+[34:38] Rotav app, which I eventually did. And so I think it's kind of, uh, uh, you know, it's worth doing as a
+
+[34:46] gateway, and as soon as you start playing around with it, you're going to say to yourself, damn, I need to go
+
+[34:50] by myself a roto app, and you probably will. Let me know. Anyway, what do you think, Stas? Is that a reasonable answer? that answer the question? Yeah. All right, let's go to a commercial break on cooking issues.
+
+[37:20] I've been watching, watching.
+
+[37:33] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory
+
+[37:44] smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[37:58] Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a
+
+[38:03] delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Wow. Wow. The harmonica with the ham. new, right? The harmonica music behind the ham. It's a match made in heaven. Yeah, I think we've been using that one a little bit, but maybe it's a new mix.
+
+[38:24] Jack had to make a new ad, so maybe the harmonica stands out a little bit more. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm just not, you know, I had never associated Sam Edwards's hams with Harmonica, but I guess now
+
+[38:35] I will. Yeah, all right. Well, yeah, we like we like their we like their product. Maybe they make an excellent product. But you have to eat it to enjoy it. Am I right? Oh, hey, call her. We have a color, color you're on the air. Hey, Dave, Sasha, Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Um, I have a question about Koji, and um, I bought some of the cold mountain coaching, and I used it to um, make my own, uh, Shio
+
+[39:02] Koji, and to make Amazaki successfully, and um, now I want to experiment and get into making some miso and and and some other
+
+[39:11] things. But instead of, you know, buying the tubs of the, of the cold mountain or one from online, what I want to do is make my own, um, uh, you know, coji
+
+[39:21] sports. So if I let the rice, um, go to
+
+[39:25] Spore. I was reading that there might be some risk of creating
+
+[39:30] some, um, some toxins, if it goes too far. So, I'm wondering if you have any advice on, on, on doing this at home, and uh, how to, how to get a good results. So, then I can culture all kinds of things that aren't, aren't, uh, aren't just rife.
+
+[39:45] Right. Okay, so 1st of all, how was the Yamazaki? was it good? Oh, it was delicious. Really sweet. take it, but it actually makes a great ice cream. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's already thick and and, and, uh, just just blended up and, uh, in the blender and stick it in the freezer. It's got great texture. That's a really amazing idea. I don't know why I never thought of that. a good idea. I might try that I should do it, yeah. We should. It's a good idea. So not today. Although you can just walk outside with it right now. Just like turn on the blender and make it. Just kidding. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, Koji, is fundamentally, you have an aspergillis, I forget which
+
+[40:27] aspergillis. an aspergillis mold that's grown on things like rice. And you use that to, instead of a malting thing as a base to break down carbohydrates for then further fermentation,
+
+[40:39] right? And so you start with a Koji base for things like sake for Amazake for or for things like misos or other fermented things like
+
+[40:51] this. And it's, uh, the problem being, and this is, you know, the question here is there are
+
+[40:56] aspergillous strains that are that do produce toxins. I, unfortunately, you know, the real guys to ask on this are the Mamafuku,
+
+[41:07] the Mamafuku lab guys, because they, you know, they're the ones doing all of their own kind of misos, and they do all their own Koji work and all their own sporulation. If you were to take a something that you had that was already
+
+[41:21] inoculated and then just keep that one and keep reinoculating based on that, I would think your odds of contamination
+
+[41:27] with something that's nasty is pretty low. But I don't have enough experience for me to, um, go out on on a limb. And so, you know, like having me say something, I would just be respouting stuff from Shirt
+
+[41:43] Leafs, Miso book, and from Sandra Katz's fermentation book. So I, you know, I hesitate to give you my own kind of advice on it, you
+
+[41:51] know? Okay, um, all right. Uh, I guess I'll I'll have a. I'll send an email to the Mofuku lab guys and um, if I get a response. Yeah, like right over there. I, you know, I, I, I can ask. you know, when I see him, you know, fundamentally, you just want to know like how to, how to tell something bad has happened. Well, I want to make my own, you know, what they call coaching kin, right? Right. Which is the, it's the spores themselves. So then you can sprinkle that stuff on, on pretty much anything and then, you know, go to town and experiment. Um, you can order some spores online, but then you know, you have a finite amount. Right? Or you can take, or I can buy, you know, like the cold mountain, um, Koji, which is already rice, grow it, and then harvest
+
+[42:38] off the, um, some of the, uh, some of the spores from, from that. Uh, you know, so that's, that's really, That's really the question. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that they do it. So you so in other words, you want something that you can like do once, then save as a drive form for a long time and then do again and like be guaranteed of good
+
+[42:58] results. Exactly. Yeah. I'll look into it. And, and, and I'll, uh, because your feeling is if you just save
+
+[43:05] some, and just kind of dehy it, grind it up, and then powder that back in that you won't necessarily have the efficacy that you need. That's, that's the, that, that's the worry or, you know, or will that work, I guess, is the question. I mean, I think that probably will be propagated. I mean, I probably, yeah, all right. Look, this is something I should know and I'm embarrassed for not knowing off the top of my head. So I'll look into it. And Stas, write an email to yourself so that we have it for next week. And next week, I'll get the answer for you because if I don't, I'm not able to answer it. I'll just ask the Momo lab guys myself and we'll we'll get to the bottom of it for you for next week. Thank you kindly. All righty. Talk to you soon. All right. Stay warm. All right, bye. All right. So, uh, Joe from Chicago writes in about kitchen design. Hey, Dave, I'm cooking Ich's crew. I currently live in downtown Chicago. Also cold there. That has some cold over there. I currently live in downtown Chicago and have plans to move out of the city in the next year or
+
+[44:03] two. In the meantime, I've been obsessing over designing the perfect kitchen. And given your recent move, I figured I'd ask you the following questions. What's most important to you when establishing yourself in a new kitchen space in terms of organization, placement of appliances, maximizing efficiency,
+
+[44:19] et cetera. I would love to hear a rant on your approach to kitchen design, and how will your approach change if you weren't crammed into a tiny NYC space. All right, well, as to the 2nd section of that, how would my approach change, if I wasn't crammed into a tiny space, I would definitely, I would just have more freaking equipment.
+
+[44:35] It's not even just the space. It's also my power limitations. I live in an apartment and, you know, I have relatively unlimited supplies of gas, but I have very limited supplies of electricity.
+
+[44:47] Which means that, you know, my ovens have to fire on gas. I could only have a single group espresso machine, wow, pity me, mom. Douche. Uh, but the uh, I'm a douche. Big dish, big dish. So, you know, so for me in an apartment, space management is a key issue, power management, also an issue. Ventilation also an issue. Very hard to get good ventilation in a, uh, you know, in a New York City apartment because it's hard to compromise window space and you're not allowed to punch a whole lot of holes in your wall. Even regular home ventilation that most people get just
+
+[45:23] sucks. It's just so bad. I mean, the thing that I would do, the 1st thing that I would invest in when you invest in a new kitchen is invest in proper ventilation and makeup air so that you can run your kitchen without smoking it.
+
+[45:38] And when I say run it, I mean, beat it hard. You want to fire up all your burners. You want to be cooking something at a 1000000000 degrees in your oven if you want
+
+[45:46] to, and, you know, grilling something, and you don't want to have the rest of your family run in there and be like, the house is full of smoke. It's full of smoke. It hurts my eyes. You know what I mean? This is not what you want to have happen. You want to be able to beat on your kitchen and have the smoke go away. And I've said this for a long time. I think in kitchens, like, I hope that in the next 10 years, one of the things people focus on more is air quality in
+
+[46:11] the, in the kitchen in terms of ventilation is being a major problem to be dealt with in the average home kitchen.
+
+[46:17] And I don't really know whether it's just because people don't cook enough at home
+
+[46:21] anymore or what. But people aren't concerned enough about ventilation, except for when you're about to
+
+[46:26] cook. And then everyone's concerned about, are you going to set out the smoke detectors? Are you going to shut off the smoke detectors? And so people actually cook in a crappy fashion at home because they haven't bothered. There are people that are out there who have like $5,6000 stoves, right? And they won't use them to their maximum capability because they're worried about setting off the freaking smoke detectors in their house because they haven't invested in proper ventilation to use their cooking equipment properly.
+
+[46:54] right? Now, 2nd rant about cooking equipment is that I use exclusively professional ranges at
+
+[47:03] home, even though I'm not supposed to. And I'll tell you why. Home ranges don't have the power. They, I looked at them, like the, the average like professional style, and you can see my hands making those dumb quote things, but like professional style home
+
+[47:17] ranges. They cost a lot of money and the burners just don't have the oomph. They're just not powerful enough to do what I want them to do. Um, you know, so, you know, I prefer, and I don't always use it, but I prefer to have a burner in the, you know, I don't need it like
+
+[47:37] mega. I don't need a 35 KBTU burner, but I like to have a burner that can, if you want to pump up
+
+[47:44] to like in the, and I know when I say this many times, measuring something based on BTUs alone is dumb because it's a measure of how much energy it uses, not a measure of how much energy it puts into the
+
+[47:53] pan. A good induction unit can beat a, you know, a 30,000 BTU burner any day. But that said, I'm mainly a gas person for the reasons I said earlier. And 30,000 in that range is where I kind of need to be to really get the power I
+
+[48:08] want. But you want to choose a burner that throttles down appropriately and that has a flame pattern that can accommodate both large pans and small pans without
+
+[48:18] too much difficulty. All right? If you're going to invest, I would invest also in, if you can get an electric oven, preferably convection, I would do that. I mean, so the ultimate in terms of, unless you're going to go full inductioning and go really nice and get used to it, which I've never done. You know, you're going to want gas range and electric of it with good ventilation, right?
+
+[48:38] Back in the day, when I had space, when I lived in a loft and power, you know, was like 3 phase power because it was a sweatshop that used to be before I moved in there, I had a, I had a
+
+[48:48] blodget commercial convection of it, and that thing was a cookie machine. That thing I could blast out cookies and, you know, non-heearth bread, bread styles,
+
+[48:58] like, like nobody's business, 6 pan, uh, a 6 pan commercial, uh, convection oven, like the baking
+
+[49:04] things, they're monsters. I definitely recommend one of those. Now, in terms of, I would get a commercial espresso machine, but that's me and a seltzer rig, which you asked about,
+
+[49:13] and I'll talk about in a minute, I mean, that's kind of, you know, just stuff that I that I would want, like, once you have an espresso machine that's plumbed, you're never going to want to go back to something that's not
+
+[49:20] plumbed. Another thing, foot pedals. Put foot pedals on your sink. Let me just say this again. Put foot petals on your sink. People don't really know how to install them, so you're going to have to learn to either get a plumber who's willing to work with you or learn to do a little bit of the plumbing yourself.
+
+[49:34] TNS Brass sells a couple of ones that can have. I don't want only foot pedals. I want foot pedals and wrist action handles as well. Here's something that I want you to consider. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the kitchen? Let me repeat this. Why would you ever want to touch the handle of a faucet when your hands are dirty in the
+
+[49:56] kitchen when you could just use a foot pedal? My rice does? Yeah, yeah. She said, I don't care. But foot pedals, everyone it's ever used in is like, everyone who's like, I talk to them out, they're like, that's ridiculous. Why do you need the foot pedals? And then, uh, when you, when they actually use it to like, why, why does everyone not have the foot pedals? Everyone loves the foot pedals. The only problem with the foot pedals is cleaning around them can be a difficulty. They make ones that are mounted high so you can clean under them easier, but I didn't have the capability to put that in. Another thing, unusual, but I think it's a nice thing to have, is if you can afford a
+
+[50:25] 6 a standard kick is like 3.5 inches, like a 2 by 4 outside for things. If you can afford 6 inches and lift everything off the ground. Really nice to clean under. By the way, the Roomba can get underneath a 6 inch thing. So it cleans underneath all of my all of my stuff, which is
+
+[50:40] nice in the kitchen to be able to clean all the way underneath everything. Another thing in the kitchen you're going to want to look out for is your movement. I unfortunately now have to be in a galley kitchen. Oh, and light. tons of light. If you can, uh, I used to, in my old place, my kitchen was, uh, you know, not was almost a part of my living room. And I had, I put strong lights with barn doors on them so that I could shield the light from going into the living room and spilling
+
+[51:05] over. But a kitchen without light. It's just, it's just stupid. It's just dumb, right? In organization on it. I mean, the way I had it before, my old place, I liked a lot better because it wasn't linear right now. Like I said, I'm in a galley. So right now my oven is next to my sink. If you can arrange it so that 2 people can fit. If you can have like a good 4 feet, you know, clear space, have the long sink. I have a long sink with cutting boards that mount in my sink, so I can go directly into disposal with cuttings, which makes it nice for like, you know, speed. But then you can, you can cut and prep and wash and then turn around and be at your stove. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Now, another thing on organization that I would say, here's my cardinal rule, and it got messed up over time. Uh, but now that I'm back in a new place, I'm able to like exert more control over it. Only, ever stack, like on, like, never stack, like on, dislike things. What do I mean by this? I detest nesting bowls where you have a little bowl in a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly larger bowl, in a slightly, and they're all made of heavy glass. And so I want that one in the middle. And I got to like get it and then I got to root around or you have baking pants. It's ridiculous. You don't need that many sizes of bowl. You really only need. I have, I mean, look, in my head. One, two, three. I have 4 size of stainless steel bowl. I have the thin, crappy ones that aren't presentation bowls, and I can stack 10 of them, and that only takes up like an extra inch and a half of room because they stack so closely together.
+
+[52:35] I have a tiny one I use for tiny mise en plus and for things like olive pits. I have a slightly larger one, a little bit larger one, and a big one that I use for salad prep and things like this. And, and, and anytime someone puts one inside of the other, it's the wrong size, I lose my, I lose my freaking mind. You know what I mean? I have 2 different sizes of Pyrex measuring cups that I use, and they're stacked only like on like. I have Bay
+
+[53:00] Marie's. I have 2 sizes, they stack, like on like, and here's another one for you when you're designing. consider putting in a speed rack. You know, a, you know, a tray, sheet tray pan, right? Because what do you, whenever you Why is it that when you make, I don't know what you celebrate, but why is it that when you make Christmas cookies or whatever, why is it your kitchen gets so hosed?
+
+[53:19] It's because, or when you're making pizzas? It's because you have no place to put the freaking things when they're done or when they're coming
+
+[53:26] out or why is it that everything gets so ruined? because you have no place in your kitchen to put all this stuff as you're
+
+[53:32] cooking. A speed rack is like, it lets you, uh, you know, store a sheet trays either has or falls. Um,
+
+[53:39] in in like a tall thing with food on them. So then you can have, I did, you know, a couple days ago, I made Christmas cookies late because I didn't get to make my mom's, but they're my mom's. my great great grandma's bonbon cookies that I like. So I made them after Christmas and I just put them in my speed rap, blah, blah, blah, and I was able to put, you know, 8 dozen cookies into the speed
+
+[53:57] rack and I had to go. So those are, what do you think? So good recommendations? Now, you add one more question, and it's regarding self, sir. You want to do a seltzer rig and you link to something called soda, soda, soda, soda, dispenserdepot.com. Um, as a turnkey thing. The system they have looks like it will work. I recommend, the only valve I recommend currently are CM Becker valves for soda, most
+
+[54:24] valves, I don't like, even the style that look like the emulate the old bashion blessing styles. Most people don't make a decent one. Go to fox equipment, FOXX equipment, and look up there, number one, two, C 03 dash 208 Ibis, one Faucet Tower. That's the one I have, and it is the balls. I love that thing. It really makes very high quality. It dispenses high quality seltzer. And it's got a really nice compensator mechanism, so you can adjust the flow rate, and I lose very, very few bubbles off of it. I use a McCann carbonator that I put through a cold plate. I use a minuteowok, ice machine. I have their business, their business luncheon room one that you can shut off the thing when you want and makes really nice ice cubes. I drill holes in the side, put a cold plate in, goes through the McCann carbonator, which I run at
+
+[55:10] 100 psi with a £20 CO2 tank. I can post pictures later. But anyway, so that's what I use. Kenneth, are we going to get kicked off the air? Oh my gosh. That's been a couple weeks since we've been on. All right, hold on a second. So next week, I have to talk about Chip and his egg machine. I have a question from Dave Kleiman regarding gummy bears. I have a question on cooking spiny lobsters from Josh and Antigua versus our lobsters, which, you know, I haven't
+
+[55:39] actually, I could talk a lot about cooking lobsters by having cooked a lot of spiny lobster. Matt and Akron asked me about lime juice and how to clarify it without a centrifuge. I have answers, but I won't be able to get it to it. Today, Matt McCar, your free saw question on gelatin I will get to. Uh, and John on a sand bitter and spice question. Maybe I'll answer some of these on Twitter if I can do it shortly or maybe we'll get to them next time. But Kenneth Ingberg will leave on this. Longtime listener and also supporter of the museum, says this. Uh, I was just thinking about the seers all and came up with this question. Is there any danger associated with the angle of the canister? That is, there's gas phase in the upper portion of the canister and liquid phase in the bottom. When you tip the canister, the liquid could be delivered to the head rather than the gas. Does this pose a safety issue? Winter backpackers and cold garage tinkerers deal with this issue because propane and butane are not very good in cold weather. I think it's because there's not enough gas phase pressure in cold water. true. That why you have to change the orifice size if you know you're going to be working in the cold. So the strategy is to sometimes tip the canister and deliver liquid phase. Sometimes this is an effective strategy, and sometimes you see a warning that this can be very dangerous. Sometimes you see people complaining that torch flame goes out. I saw in one place that the Burns a Matic talks about needing to use a pressure regulated canister if you're going to turn it upside down. The literature for the TS 8000 says during use, hold hand torches upright to prevent flare ups or flashes. So I'm asking about how this might be, how this issue might affect the sears all. Clearly, it burns the magic torches, do not regularly explode under common issues. However, the very high temperature in size, the searsal head could pose a special danger. I think I remember Dave saying he recommends using the TS 8000 head, but what if you don't use it and just find that whatever your handy neighbor has in his garage? And this being a consumer product, your average user is not going to dependably take any special precautions. Best wishes to Dave, the crew, and you, Nastasia, for Happy New Year, Ken. All right. So the issue here is delivering liquid out of the thing, and some torches, the Birds of Matt actually has some precautions to prevent you from dispensing liquid out of it, which
+
+[57:36] is one of the reasons I like the 4000 and the 8000. If you turn them all the way upside down, yeah, they don't they don't work as well, but they're meant to work fairly well as a multiple position torch, even if they're not recommended. It would tani, one of the reasons that the iritani is such a pain in the butt is they go through very great, uh, pains to, and that's why if you look in a
+
+[57:55] newatani torch, they have a thin tube running through that all the butane runs through to pre-volatilize and it warms it before it gets to where the, uh, orifice is, so that it's always going to
+
+[58:04] be, uh, a gas when it comes out, no matter what orientation you hold the torch. Now, the issue is not so much one of safety. When it flames out, it's going to flame out. But that's why the reason why that, if you look at one of the seersolves. The reason why it's angled, why it looks like, you know, an old, like, 60s car front is because we noticed that in our 1st production, in our 1st prototypes, they had a flat face, when you turn the torch, the torches we were
+
+[58:30] using all the way, so that the face was parallel to meat or, you know, parallel to a table surface, that you would start, uh, you would start having problems with liquid delivery, especially
+
+[58:41] when, uh, not a safety problem, but a problem with the actual flame. And you would get this whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, noise and you would get a fluttering. And this is especially exacerbated by the fact that you get a lot of, um,
+
+[58:52] air, uh, and hot vapor coming back up off of the torch head directly back up in line with the torch. And that's why we angled this searsal head, such that the torch would always be slightly inclined, even when the
+
+[59:04] searsal itself was perpendicular, sorry, parallel to your work
+
+[59:10] surface. So that's why we did that. It's not prime, it's irritating, like those flame mounts and stuff are irritating, but I don't think they particularly pose a safety issue.
+
+[59:19] Now, torches that don't have this kind of nice dispensing feature. They're not really going to be high enough power anyway to do what you want with a serial. I really highly recommend. Uh, and I think for the most part, anyone that's buying one kind of, uh, and we'll go into page. eventually we want to make our own torch or like link it with a torch sale, but, you know, we couldn't really for the 1st one around. But, um, and if I was going to do one, I would definitely make it possible to fire it in any direction, uh, possible. But anyway, that's that's my answer on that. So that is something we think about quite a bit. And that's why the front head of the sears all is angled. And we'll get those next questions. I'll either answer some of them on Twitter or we'll get them on next week on cooking issues, cooking your juice.
+
+[1:00:06] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:00:15] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:34] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects,
+
+[0:04] discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our
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+[0:15] showrooms, where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
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+[0:20] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. Today's program has been brought to you by Hearst Ranch, the nation's largest single source supplier of free range, all natural,
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+[0:36] grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. For more information, visit Hearstranch.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:44] Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:56] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cookies is just coming to you live from Opera's Pizzeria, Bushwick, Brooklyn, on
+
+[1:05] Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from 12 to around one or so, here in the studio, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good, how are you? I'm doing all right. I'm multi-computer today. I've got my iPad and my iPhone in one hand and my computer in the other because
+
+[1:20] it's a little bit of a research cordle you this morning, which cordle you is my
+
+[1:25] son Booker's term for anything that's a cluster beef. He calls it a cordle you named after the, I don't think it's after the famous surveyor or
+
+[1:34] the politician who was related to the surveyor, but I think it's after the actual stop on the subway. But it's one of those few words that Stas and I, you, you know, I both use Cordleview to mean... Yeah, to me in cluster, you know what? And nobody ever... No one ever questions it. So it must be one of those like, it's not that it's not a monopoeia. That's not exactly right, but... I think it's like a vocab word, they think they didn't study for a test. They're like, oh, what's something I don't know. Right, but it's so accurately describes, you know, like complete cluster
+
+[2:03] beep that, you know, that it's like, oh, Corley. And so, you know what I mean? Because it sounds like it's all tied up and messed up. You know what I mean? We're trying to spread it. Cortell U. Cordel you. We want people to use it, so use it. Use it, use it. Use it and, you know, when you do, think of Booker. His birthday today. Did I say that? Dax, Dax, and birthday, Dax and Booker's birthday today, Booker and Dax, 3 years separated, same birthday because I'm just that efficient. No, it's a, or I should say my wife, I guess, is that efficient. She's like, we're having babies exactly one day. And that's it. No, but yeah, both born same day, 3 years apart. Fun. fun times. And like they get in arguments about like, I'm going to have the birthday party separate this year. Am I not? What are they doing? Well, it turns out they were not going to have their birthday parties together, but now they are again. But I used to have, I used to every year. I don't have my my amazing pizza oven, although I could probably still, you know, fix my new oven in time to do pizza, but for every year it's been make your own pizzas,
+
+[3:07] but, you know, I've had the 850 degree Fahrenheit pizza oven. There's still a couple days left I can modify, you know, but they're like, I want, I want crappy commercial, when
+
+[3:18] I say my kids like crappy commercial pizza. I'm not referring to like other fine pizza makers, like, for instance, the folks at Roberta's who make a delicious fine pizza that I would be proud to have at a birthday party that my kids were, were. I mean, they like the lowest of the low. I'm not going to call any particular people out as making a low quality pizza. But whatever. It's depressing. They're like, I prefer low quality pizza. But how do they have that low quality pizza? They've got, first, I don't know how to, they got, we live near, uh, we live near a major national chain of
+
+[3:50] low quality pizza purveyors, and, uh, I don't know. They somehow they saw it and they got hooked up. Who knows how the hell kids get hooked into things. You know what I mean? But now they would actually prefer it. And I mean, I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm not saying I make the best pizza in the world, but, uh, it's a whole hell of a lot better than uh, this crap that they request, you know, it's got
+
+[4:09] that, this commercial pizza, the crust is always terrible. Sauce is always waste sweet. At least you go now says they have better ingredients. Well, now you're giving a chance. You're giving a little hook into what they, like, if their ingredients are better, that begs the question, better than what? What was it? Yeah, what was it before? Like, if this is your better ingredient? Like, if this is like, this is like, you know, this is your, you know, the top of your line there, you know,
+
+[4:33] like, what do you do? like, you know, whatever, I'm not even going to get into it. Call your questions, 2718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. joined in the engineering booth. We have both of you guys over there now? We have Jack and Evan. We have Jack and Evan, yeah. Hi, hey, guys. Happy New Year, Dave. Happy New Year. Yeah. Well, I forget, we called you out about New Year's last time on the last show, right? I forget what Stas said something kind of. Well, you know, Nastasia now, whenever she sees someone in Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. Now you live in Manhattan. How you liking the Manhattan? It's awesome Everyone who lives in Brooklyn is like, I love it here in Brooklyn until they moved to Manhattan. like, oh, yeah. Where are you exactly? Not exactly. I'm not giving the exact address here, but like right on 1st
+
+[5:15] Street, actually 2nd Street, 1st half. No, so you're right, right, still near the near the L. Can't give up on the L, right? I'm close enough, right? No, because that'd be the 14th. You walk up to 14th. I mean, I walked there from 29th, whatever today. Not that anybody cares. Okay, we got some questions in from last week that I didn't get a chance to take care of, so let's take care of some of them first. John writes in, hey, Dave, Hammer and Crew. Uh, slowly but surely making my way through the back episodes, which uh, make the subway rides go by pretty quickly, although I do get strange looks when I burst out laughing from something you said,
+
+[5:47] uh, well, you know, I appreciate that. Hopefully it was actually intended to be funny and not like the semi-serious things I occasionally say, just became a heritage radio donor to keep the great
+
+[5:58] program coming. Yay. Thank you. I have 2 quick questions. In a previous podcast, you ended the show talking about Sandbitter and alluded to a recipe to reproduce it, but of course ran out of time. Would love to know your thoughts on how to reproduce that. Well, of course, uh, you know, the cooking issues crew loves anything,
+
+[6:16] compari, uh, or apparol related, and sand bitter is the uh, small, I think it's made by Pelleguino, right? Sand bitter? I'm not sure. Yeah, I think so. sounds right. Yeah, but it's red, like Campari. It has the same basic kind of flavor complex. I know it's not the same. Please don't send any nasty things in, but it's got the same thing. So the question is then, how to make that flavor yourself. And so, you know, I didn't have an actual recipe recipe, just an idea for it, but we tested out
+
+[6:47] some ideas yesterday. So Campari, and therefore also sand bitter. The bitterness is mainly from wormwood, right? I mean, the worm, the, like if you, if you were to just taste a straight decoction of wormwood,
+
+[7:02] uh, you would notice that the, um, that the bitterness of it, that particular bitterness note is the bitterness note from the end of uh, Campari,
+
+[7:10] right? So, so there you have it. There's also, I think, some gentian in it, which is another bittering agent. And of course, the citrus peels. Now, I believe Campari and Sam bitter use a, um, use a, uh, like a bitter orange peel, like a
+
+[7:28] kinoto or something like that. which I didn't have available to me when I was testing. Now, of course, there's also all sorts of other flavors that they layer on top as top notes, but the bass notes are the citrus, uh, peels,
+
+[7:39] the, uh, wormwood, and possibly, I think, gentian, we added it to the recipe we tested.
+
+[7:45] So now without alcohol, how do you do it? The best way is a heat steep. Now, I could get into more kind of technical stuff, trying out the ISI infusions and whatnot, but I figure for
+
+[7:54] a 1st guest, let's try to do just a straight old-fashioned heated tease, right? And you can heat it fairly. Maybe you're going to affect the aromatics somewhat as opposed to a long steep, but doing it in water. I figured it would be a good 1st approximation. So, uh, we did 5 grams of each of those 3 uh, each of those 4 flavors, grapefruit peel, orange peel, sweet oranges from uh, the
+
+[8:15] US that we didn't have the good, uh, you know, stuff. We got at the, what's called the dual specialty shop, which is similar to a Kalustians here in New York.
+
+[8:22] Uh, wormwood, F, and Gensen, all at 5 grams per 200 mils. We nuke them in the microwave so it wouldn't get too much boil off and then let them steep under mild agitation for 5 minutes. And then we made mixtures of those together. And we used 100 mils of the grapefruit, 100 mils of the orange, 15
+
+[8:42] mills of the wormwood decoction, 5 mils of the gentian. To that we added 20 grams of sugar to take it to about a 10.5
+
+[8:51] bricks, solution, and a pinch of salt to round it out. Chilled it and carbonated it. Now it's it's a, it's a gold in a brown. It's a red golden a brown. What commercial used to they used to say golden brown all the time. But it's in my head since I was a little kid, like I can't say golden brown. I have to say a golden a brown. But the, um, someone will remind me what commercial that was. But so that tasted pretty much like sand bitter. Now, what you, like Campari, uh, Campari, when they make it, comes out light brown. Uh, so, you know, they color it with color. They used to use Coach Neal, like squished up bug stuff, but they don't use the squished up bug stuff anymore. So, uh, then we tried, though, interestingly, I need, I felt that it needed more uh, grapefruit than that and more and more orange than that. So we tried just doing a straight bass of 220 grams water, 20 grams sugar. Uh, point uh, one. one, 25 grams of gension,
+
+[9:51] 0.375 grams of wormwood, uh, 3.75 grams of orange, and 5 grams of grapefruit peel, uh, for, you know, 5 minutes deep on
+
+[9:59] a heat tea. And it was good, but it didn't taste quite as much like sand bitter as the other one. We, that needed, uh, it was maybe a little too much grapefruit and, and then needed a little more wormwood than that, but just so you know, uh, that's what we tried out. And so, John, you can give that a test for your sand bitter alternative. And of course, like I say, you can add the top notes and stuff, but that's pretty much the base. I think even stars, had she been there because she was not there when we tested it, she was at the Stanford, what is it called? Stanford Alumni, New York Network board. Say that again. Sanford Women Network, New York board meeting. Young. Young. No, not young, not young. Not young. Well, they think they're old, but... Well, and so they had a, what do they call it? board meeting. But it was like also a mixer, right? Yeah, a mixer with icebreaker. Icebreaker. That's what they call it. icebreaker. And what did they serve for their icebreaker? ice water. Whoa! Whoa! Stas. Yeah. It's rough. Just does. If you're going to be on the board and you're going to have something, you're going to have an icebreaker, you know, ice water does not an icebreaker make. You got to take that thing over. You got to you just got to take that thing over. All right. 2nd question, John, in regards to spice storage for home use, what is your current system? I have been using 4 or 6 ounce round paint or cream jars, jars,
+
+[11:29] jars from pearl paint and storing them in a drawer, which serves a dual purpose of keeping out light and away from heat. However, I'm running out of drawer space and now looking for more options. Hope all is well. John. So, the problem with spice storage is, I mean, a lot of times it's good to keep it away from light. Some spices are light sensitive. For me, the big problem is you need to see what's where spices are. Like, I have a bunch of stuff and then you end up not using the spices you have because you don't know where they
+
+[11:57] are. My old kitchen, which I just left, I had a bunch of, um, knife magnets that I mounted under my cabinet in a strip, like I had like 6 feet
+
+[12:07] of or 5 feet of knife magnets. And then I bought jars with metal tops and just smacked them up so you can have a line of spices. I haven't done that in my new kitchen yet. We're still figuring out exactly how right now I'm not so happy with my spice storage. I have a very narrow shelved pantry on one side with 4 inch shelves that go all the way up and it's nowhere near a window, so I don't worry about
+
+[12:30] light, and I'm going to have spices there, but the problem is it's not dense enough. The shelves are bottle height right now and need to make them shorter so I can go. But I usually put them into small, small containers, as small as they will
+
+[12:41] go, unless it's something that I use a lot of at a time, like coriander, because I do a lot of infusions with
+
+[12:46] coriander, and those things I keep in quart containers. Um, but I don't have as good a solution as I had in my old kitchen yet with the
+
+[12:52] knife, knife, uh, You know what I'm talking about with the magnetic knife things, right? They make fantastic spice storage things. People used to come and be like, where'd you get that? I like, it's a knife rack, you jerk, you jerk. I didn't say that because why would I say that? They're not jerks just because they didn't know how I did it, right? Matt Mikari wrote in because I don't think I answered this about gelatin, did I? think you did. Did I? You can get over good. If I answered it, we'll figure out over the break whether I answered it about freestyle and gelatin. And if I did, then, you know, whatever. Matt Nakron wrote in about clarifying lime juice. I watched a couple of videos on the web where you talk about clarifying lime juice. You mentioned that Pexanx ultra SPL. Doesn't work because the pH is too low. My question is, could you raise the pH enough for it to work without significantly impacting the flavor? Maybe using sodium citrate or something like that? Is that a dumb idea? I'd like to, there are no dumb ideas, just dumb people. Uh, I'd like to be able to clarify lime juice without a centrifuge and I'm not very good at massaging the bag. Well, not very many people. Matt, are very good at massaging the bag. A good way actually around massaging the bag. If you don't mind doing the agar, but don't aren't good at getting a good yield out of it is use a salad spinner. And that's what I teach a lot of people to do is, is, you have to make sure that whatever your draining cloth is, that you tie off at the top into like a Santa's Christmas sack or use like a, well, that's
+
+[14:14] gross. Or like a nut milk bag or something like that and tie it off. Like, that nastasia gets an image, the nut milk bag. Nut milk bag. Tied off at the top, throw it into a salad spinner, and give it a good spin. And that's a good way to ensure that you don't over squeeze a bag when you're trying to do
+
+[14:32] quick Agar clarification. Now, if you, uh, I wouldn't try raising the, uh, the pH uh, on it, I don't don't think you're going to have satisfactory results, if you don't mind losing a lot of
+
+[14:44] product. It also depends on how clear you need it. If you just need it to be clear, because you're carbonating and you don't need to be crystal clear, here's how it works. So my normal centerfuge technique is I add Pectinex Ultra SPL, even though it doesn't work 100%, it does help in clarifying lime juice, which is, you know, very acidic. I add pectinex ultra SPL and, um, kiesel sol, right? So Kesel is a wine finding agent, and they call it D ones. Part of a two-part system, right? So you add the SPL and the kesel saw together. You can get it any homebrew shop. queso salt and kaida sand together. So I add, um, 2 grams per liter. You don't want to add more and you don't want to add less. When you're working with charge things like that, if you're way over, way under, you can, you can reduce the efficacy or even like make it anti-effective. You can stabilize things if you add too much. So you want to add 2 grams per liter of that. You want to stir it thoroughly, wait 15 minutes, and then you want to add
+
+[15:42] 2 grams of kitasan, which is from shrimp shells. It's a polysaccharide, a solution to that same thing and stir it. Now, if you let that settle, that will clarify. It will settle out. It will still be slightly cloudy, slightly cloudy. If you then add and you let it sit for an hour or 2, it will settle out and be slightly cloudy. If you add, after another 15 minutes, uh, after you add the kaida sand, another 2 grams per mil of kiesel soul, stir it, and let it sit for an hour or 2, the stuff on the top will be crystal clear, right?
+
+[16:18] But the problem is your yield will be very low. It will not settle nearly as much as the uh, one that you only did the kesel salt and kaeda sand to, but the stuff that's at the very top would be crystal clear. Expect yields on the order of 30%, though, of crystal clear stuff. And you can just pour it off the top, make sure you do it in a round container. So if you just want to test that, it's very easy to test and maybe just the, uh, the, the, you know, um, not perfect clarification of
+
+[16:47] kesosal and kaeda sand, which gets very good yields on the order of like 60 to 75%, maybe that's clear enough for
+
+[16:53] you, but give it a shot. Let me know how it goes. Um, Okay, uh, Josh from uh, Coolidge Antigua wrote in. Uh, what a Guan. That's what you said for like what's going on. I was wondering what, what? No, it means Antigua, man. I was wondering if you can explain any differences in low temperature cooking between North Atlantic lobster and spiny rock lobster. Also, would you explain the butter poaching that I did, how do you kill the lobster? And finally, what's up with using dry lupini beans? They take forever to get the alkaloid taste out. How do you cook them? I don't have an answer on the Lupini beans yet. I got to work on that. Also, I might add, I don't have a firm answer we had before on the question about making your own
+
+[17:35] Koji from what's it called? homemade, you know, from wild products instead of using somebody else's starter. I was supposed to get in touch with the guys at Momafuku Labs who do this all the time, but we kept crossing paths.
+
+[17:49] I haven't got in touch with them. And I haven't able to find anything definitive other than people who didn't seem like they
+
+[17:54] could make authoritative statements, making authoritative statements online. So I'm going to hold off on that, apologize on the coji thing, and we'll get back to the Lupiti beans. Now, on the lobster. I'm going to be also unhelpful. I don't, you know, here up in, in the, in these uh, northern areas, though, we only get live, um, you know, you know, Canadian, main lobster, you know,
+
+[18:15] Hamara, you know, the American style, uh, lobster. We don't get any of the spiny or rock lobster types live typically to cook with up here. Uh, that's a long way of saying, I don't have a lot of experience, um, cooking them. I will say this. Uh, because, you know, I've had, I've cooked them not live and I find most of the time, and I've also cooked, uh, you know, regular, you know, American style lobsters, not live. And I've never really liked cooking with frozen lobster. used to us. You ever had a good frozen lobster that you liked? No. In fact, in fact, I did a, I remember once I did a, uh, uh, um, a class at the French culinary and I was doing lobster, low temp lobster, and they, you know, I could only get the frozen for some reason because I had to teach it that
+
+[19:03] day and I've never had a worse, low temperature product in my life than
+
+[19:08] the than the frozen lobster. So anything I've done with the with the rock lobster slash spiny lobster is not, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it's not, you know, not necessarily applicable. Now, I will also say this about regular lobster, is that I tend to not like the low temperature. I tend to not like low temperature cooking on on lobster in general. I used to try to do it at like 60 degrees Celsius. You want to keep lobster cooking times. And this is going to be true, by the way, even though you know, the lobster, like the, like the, the northern lobster, like the, you know, the clawed lobster and the
+
+[19:42] non-cloded spiny lobster, they're not actually that closely related. Did you know that? They're not really that closely related. I mean, they're both crustaceans, but they're fairly separate. Like, the spiny lobsters are the ones that you see on the internet that they march in long
+
+[19:56] lines and it, whereas, like, like the American lobsters, much like Nastasia and myself, like to keep themselves. Don't like to really congregate with others of their type. Uh, So yeah, so they're they're not like hyper closely related, but uh, all crustaceans share certain
+
+[20:13] cooking, uh, axioms that need to be, um, axioms that needs to
+
+[20:18] be, um, need to be looked at. So, for instance, the exception of shrimp, which I think actually freezes pretty well, although sweet shrimp, fresh sweet shrimp is pretty damn good, right? You ever had those? The live shift they're cooked right away. Mostly they eat them raw. They's why I made it, they're good. But the, you know, the lobsters, any of those things, I wouldn't, like I say, eat frozen, but if you cook them for too long,
+
+[20:41] even especially at low temperature, but if you cook them too long in general, they get incredibly mushy and unpalatable.
+
+[20:48] So when you're doing any sort of low temperature work with these creatures, you're
+
+[20:51] going to want to, um, you're going to want to keep the cooking time under uh, 15 uh, minutes, I'd say 15, 20 minutes. So when I do large, large lobsters, and I've cooked lobsters up to about £25, like, you know, northern lobsters. What I'll do is I'll do a steam. I used to do a pressure steam kill, then would cut it for a couple of minutes, cut it open, and then cook all the parts separately, keeping cutting it and keeping each cooking time underneath that kind of like, you know, 10, 15 minute time window for creating
+
+[21:21] mushiness. Now, what I do now, my typical technique now is, uh, because the studies I've shown,
+
+[21:27] now there's people that are interested in crustaceans and whether or not crustaceans feel
+
+[21:32] pain in the sense of pain as opposed to just no seception. No seception is things that no seception means that when there is something that we would consider a noxious stimulus, let's say, heat
+
+[21:44] or, or, you know, someone punching you in the face, you avoid it, right? That's no seception. The ability to avoid what is what we would concern, see as noxious or dangerous or harmful stimuli, right? No seception. This is different from pain. So pain is a mental state, relating to your feelings, right? So you can feel pain. So, so, for instance, I can create a robot with, um, you know, sensors that can avoid heat, and that is kind of a noisceptive sensor system, but
+
+[22:22] the robot doesn't feel pain. So the question is, do uh, crustaceans feel pain, right? And, um, Or is there avoidance of noxious things, just, uh, no, no seception. there's a lot of heavy duty work being done by people on either side of
+
+[22:38] this, saying that, yes, they can, no, they can't. And a lot of it's based on whether the research is being done is based on whether hermit crabs,
+
+[22:44] um, you know, can make choices about what shells they go into depending on what level of pain they have to end or what level of noxious stimuli, whatever. It's complicated. But the fact of the matter is, whether they feel pain or not when you boil it, this is a long way of getting to it. Every crustacean that I've cooked live and tested, if you administer anesthesia to
+
+[23:05] it before you kill it, it tastes better, right? And so then the thing is whether or not they feel pain, if you remove their ability to sense noxious stimuli before you kill
+
+[23:14] them, they taste better. And so, and similarly, if you kill them quickly, by knifing them through now, they don't have a centralized brain like we do, they have a series of ganglion that go around. But if you sever the, uh, you know, both the, the ganglia in the top and the, and the esophageal ganglion underneath, you sever those with a knife, um, they also taste better than, if you don't, the problem is, is that,
+
+[23:37] as you know, um, crustaceans don't have, and I've tested with crabs on the
+
+[23:43] anesthesia, I've tested crabs, I've tested, uh, you know, lobsters a bunch of times. Um, several varieties of crab. The, um, the problem is, is that the, the, the, the blood system of the animal and the, and a lot
+
+[23:56] some of the flavor is contained in an open circulatory system, it's called the hemolith, hemolith,
+
+[24:01] whatever, whatever it is, hemolymph, I can never pronounce it. I never like, eh, I'm terrible. You know how bad I am pronouncing that kind of crap. especially if it's not right in front of me. Anyways, and so you don't want to lose that flavor. So what I do typically, it nowadays is I cut through the ganglion over a closed thing, save those
+
+[24:19] juices. Then I uh, take out the meat, uh, as much as I can without mangling it. And I take the shell that you can remove, remove the gills because they're nasty, remove anything that I think is going to be nasty, cook down the
+
+[24:30] shells, uh, uh, with um, uh, oil butter.
+
+[24:35] And then I combine that with the juices, put them in ziploc bags, and do a quick poach out in high temperature because I actually prefer high temperature cooking, like, you know, simmer like 80
+
+[24:45] for crustaceans for under 10 minutes because I have the pieces cut small enough for it to do it.
+
+[24:51] And I'm sure that will work on a rock or spiny, spiny as well as it will work on a regular lobster. That was a long way answering that, huh? What was that gross thing that we have on the sushi at Jiro? That was like a shrimp. Okay, so not to call out Jiro, who dreams of sushi all the time. Uh, but yeah, so he did Squilla, uh, like, you know, manta shrimp, you know, manta shrimp. And man, that was that was some mushy business, right? I'm, you know, I look, I have to be honest, like those things don't taste very good. Uh, you know, cook like that. The thing was a mush bag. That was like the worst. I mean, I think manta strip is difficult anyway to cook. But you know, what's interesting is that, uh, the rock lobster, much more closely related to a manta shrimp than it is to a lobster. My memory serves because it's like things go into I have to go look at. There's like where the crustacean kind of families break down, but I believe that slipper lobsters and
+
+[25:49] manta shrimp are more closely related to spineys than our, you know, northern robsters are. Uh, okay. Um, what break? Yeah. 1230. All right. commercial break. will be right back with cookie issues.
+
+[26:55] Today's...
+
+[27:03] First, ranch, grass fed beef. Pasture raised on 150,000 acres in central California. Hearst Ranch Grassfit, B, free range, sustainably produced, humane. First ranch grass fed beef, the authentic flavor of the American West.
+
+[27:32] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, there's really nothing like hearing you scream through the glass when that commercial
+
+[27:41] plays. One day I'm going to send Brian Kenny, who is our awesome pal over at Hearst Ranch, a video of that. I'd appreciate it. I don't even know you guys don't even take the, uh, when, like the host reaction to the Hearst Ranch grass. I have to start doing that. Yeah, do it. Yeah, I mean, that's a good tune. It's a tune, yeah. I mean, you actually you actually saw it live. You, one of the few people that got to see that song, you know, perform live. Yeah, well, you got to go live with the Hearst Ranch grass fed beef. That's right You know? I remember Joel Gargano, I think, did a cover of that song for us once. Yeah? Screaming metal cover. yeah that was nice. Do we have do we have that? I have to look for it. Maybe you play it on the on the outside. who played on the out. Yeah. So Dave Klein wrote in last week. I don't think I answered this about gummy bears. did I? No. Um, yes, a follow-up question. Because remember I did the kitchen talk about like kitchen design. I talked about the foot pedals. So he has this new faucet that he wants to, um, put foot pedals on. The brand of foot pedals I use. I use TNS brass, but Chicago Faucet also makes several brands. The problem with faucets, if you want to adapt them, you have to choose a faucet where the mixing valve, the mixing
+
+[28:56] valves are separate from the actual spout. So if you can, if you can get to where the spout is, like, so, like, I also have TNS
+
+[29:05] is my faucets, and I chose, uh, from them a, uh, specifically a faucet where, uh, the, the mixing valve got put into a
+
+[29:15] T into the, underneath the deck of my sink. And so what you do there is you just add um, because it had a sprayer, right? So here's a here's a here's a way to look at it. So most sprayers that you have attached to, you know, non-commercial, not TNS, like a spray valve one. But sprayers, um, have a diverter valve in them such that when you open the sprayer, then all of a sudden the sprayer is connected to,
+
+[29:39] uh, you know, it, it stops the flow to the, to the spout. The one that I have, doesn't work that way. It's got a manual off and on for the sprayer. So I could tee in underneath at the spout and supply water where they meant to push water out to the sprayer. So I put an extra tea underneath my deck and attached my, um, my foot pedals and I use a hot and cold foot pedal that the mixing's done there. So there's only one output for my foot pedals and plumbed it directly into the spout via the extra tea I added. So that's how that's how I did it. But every faucet is different. You need some way to get to the, um, to the spout of your faucet that doesn't, um, that, you know, before you have to
+
+[30:23] open or, you know, in other words, it's independent of the actual mixing valve that you have on top of your deck with the
+
+[30:28] floss. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Kind of? Okay. And he also wrote in last week. I want to make gummy bears with only centrifuge fruit juices and gelatins. Can I do it with no sugar? How? Yeah, sure. It's reduced the hell out of the fruit juices until the bricks is where you need it to be so that you don't need to add
+
+[30:48] any any extra sugars. Um, you have to, so typically, I was looking up some commercial gelatin stuff. I forget where I got it from. But you're looking at for a commercial recipe, 7 to 8 kilograms of 250 bloom gelatin, which
+
+[31:05] is, I think, roughly where Knox is in that area, dissolved in 14 to 16 liters of water with 37 kilograms of sucrose and 45 kilograms of glucose, plus acid,
+
+[31:19] sugar, and flavor. So you're looking, like, now, it's very important there, especially if you choose fruit juices that you don't have one that has too much invert in it, right?
+
+[31:28] So there's juices that have a high sucrose percentage and there's juices that have already broken down into invert, which would mean that it's fructose and glucose instead of
+
+[31:39] sucrose. Now that you want some inversion, you want some, you know, glucose and fructose in there, because it's going to help with modifying the texture and
+
+[31:50] preventing, you know, crystallization, but if you have too much of that and not enough sucrose in the mix, then you're going to get a kind of
+
+[31:57] weeping, it's going to be sticky and tacky. So these guys for their recipe use 45 grams of glucose syrup, which isn't really glucose. I don't know how much sugar there is and 37 of, so let's say that's, I don't know how much percentage that's actually glucose and how much of it is something else. But you're looking at least in the realm, at least in the realm of a liquid that is... I'm going to want to say like, 66 or something like that. I have to look up what kind of bricks of liquid you would need to get it to work, but I think it's somewhere in that
+
+[32:30] area, like 66 bricks, which means you're going to need to do a lot of reduction. Not do some more calculations. Maybe someone else is who listens as a commercial candy, you know, blah, blah, blah. And we'll figure it out. Now it's pretty easy to do a reduction of a fruit juice down to those levels. Uh, but, um, if you don't want to alter the flavor at those levels, you're going to need to do it under a vacuum. And I've done it. I've taken strawberry under vacuum down to, I think, almost 70 bricks. And it was delicious, but, you know, you need a rotavap for it, which is a pain in the butt, right? Yep. Yeah? Uh, okay. And did anyone figure out whether I answered that free saw question? I think I think you did. I see gelatin in the write-up. Yeah. Well, if I did not, then... Yeah, call us out, you know, call us for the, you know, call us out for the jerks that we
+
+[33:22] are. Uh, right? We are jerks. Yeah, known fact. Hey, Dave, what do you think of the someone wrote us in about canned soups sucking? Yeah, give me the let me know. What was the exact, what was the exact thing about it. What is what does this mean? Why does it need so much salt? Why does it taste worse than soup served? In other ways, containers or bags? What makes canned soup worse? don't know. I've never done a lot of side by size. Do you find canned soups to be bad? I really use canned soup. I like them if I need them if I'm sick or whatever. If you need them, if you're sick. if you don't want to cook your own soup. Right, it takes a long time. I think, look, I think, frankly, the reason why people add salt to soups is not preservative. There's no need to add salt to a canned soup. Excuse me, canned soup to preserve it because they can that sucker. Maybe also, I don't think they need to go under. I mean, a lot of problems with soups in general, and I've never done a bag soup tasting,
+
+[34:18] but, um, you know, they have to cook the, they have to cook the snot out of them. You know what I mean? And so certain things are not going to be. I mean, certain things are delicious pressure cooked, in which case they'd probably be even better under those high temperature regimes, but certain
+
+[34:31] ones aren't, but the salt is not there as a preservative in a canned soup. The salt's there because people like salt in their soup. Like stars, can you imagine tomato soup without salt? How gross would tomato soup be without salt? Really gross. Right? Are you imagining tomato, tomato soup with a grilled cheese sandwich? And then and then you're like, 0 my god, it's gonna be awesome. And then there's no salt. That hurts, right? It hurts. I guess part of the question here, Dave, was wondering if like bags are going to be the new way to serve soup if like, you know, Campbell's might shift to bags instead of cans, if that would make any difference. Well, I don't know. I mean, like, for instance, like, it could be, in other words, the question here is,
+
+[35:11] is the canon parting a flavor? and when people say that things taste tinned, What does that mean, right? So, like, what is that actually causing the flavor? how like everyone always says, once you open, you can. You can't store. you can't store the stuff in the can anymore. It's going to taste canned. You ever heard that? No. You never heard that? I've heard that Yeah, you've heard that. And, like, maybe it's true, maybe it's not. The can doesn't Remember, the cans that we buy are coated with crap on the inside of it. It's not typically supposed to be in most of these things touching the can. It's touching this weird film that I don't really remember what it's made out of on the inside of the can. Ah, look, I can look into it. If I can remember to look into it. Someone sends me a text. I can look into whether anyone's done an actual hardcore study on taste of
+
+[35:55] cans versus not. If it's if there is a soup that doesn't respond well to being cooked at extremely high temperatures,
+
+[36:04] right? Because it's going to degrade the vegetables or whatever other thing is a problem with
+
+[36:08] it, it's going to thing. Then you could put it in a bag and you could do, um, you could do pasteurization using high hydrostatic pressure. So if there is a soup that doesn't want to go through the processing that goes through canning to
+
+[36:21] get, if it's an actual processing problem versus the can itself, then there's
+
+[36:25] the possibility of using a bag to do something like high hydrostatic pressure as a pasteurization technique that might have some sort of benefit.
+
+[36:32] But again, I don't know because it's off the top of my head. Do you think soda tastes different in cans? I do, but I don't know if that's mental or not. Most people who have cans of things for sodas and beers think that
+
+[36:44] the stuff tastes better in a can. Yeah, same. That's how I feel usually. I think like a 20 ounce, you know, bottle of Coke versus a can of Coke that can always taste better to me. don't know why. I know why, because bottles, like plastic bottles suck for oxygen permeability, I mean,
+
+[37:00] carbon dioxide permeability. So they, you know, like the, the, a 20 ounce bottle, if you were to walk into a Coke plant or Pepsi. I'm not saying Coke. You know what I mean? Although coke. If you were to walk into one of the, no offense. I like Pepsi. I only drink. Okay, when I drink, when I drink sodas, I drink diet sodas. And I think even the people from Pepsi would have to admit that diet Coke is a better diet soda than diet Pepsi. Right? And you don't drink diet so you don't know. I don't know, whatever. I mean, maybe they probably would not. Oh my god, it probably does piss someone off. Anyway, Stas prefers Pepsi. There you have it. And I don't drink sugar full sodas much, so I don't know. Anyway, if you were to taste one right off the line, right? Dr. Pepper we both enjoy Dr. Pepper. Yeah. If you were to get one right off the line, they would taste probably
+
+[37:50] identical, Jack. But if you let it sit for any length of time, the bottle's going to start losing carbonation much faster than the can. Can's also easier to chill down than a bottle, so often you'll get underchilled, uh,
+
+[38:02] you get underchilled sodas in bottles. And the same holds true for beers. Also, cans are 100% light tight. And so, you know, if you were to have someone that were to choose a bottle that wasn't good at
+
+[38:16] non-skunking and then they were to use, um, real hops instead of those weird extracts that don't skunk, then, um, you know, you have those issues as well. So can light type can, gas tight, can, easy to chill. And plus when you're done with a can, you can crush it and hurl it. You know, if you if you grew up doing that sort of thing. Maybe I did. I didn't. Uh, right? What do you think? Yeah? Um, okay. Uh, we have a question in. Hello, Dave, Jack, Nastasia, and company. I have some questions for you. I think this is from Mark, but he's got an interesting name, spelling of the name, right? Mark with the C and the K. Is that, yeah, anyway. I have some questions for you. I'm listening to your backlog, but I'm living in Italy and calling is a bit difficult. Can you guys call in on Skype or I don't know what Viber is. Must be Italian. Italian Skype. So Jack, can people call in via Skype? You know, we never take calls via Skype because they usually sound horrible, but in this case, maybe next
+
+[39:21] week we'll try to get one of these computers to, I'll have to look into that. Scubbing it up. Oh, yeah. We got to get that Friday night. But maybe, uh, the, now the song's going through my head. I not going to be able to think. But the, um, yeah, I mean, like we have we have a good number of international, uh, folk. Maybe we could set up a Skype thing for them, no? Yeah, we'll look into that. It always sounds bad, even if you just do voice only Skype and not the, not the video. might help. We could always do the phone Skype too. Yeah, because I think... I think it's the video Skype is the one that always hangs up, right? Yeah. And I mean, hangs up like, eh, I mean, hangs up like... Yeah, yeah, okay. It's bad. Anyway. So it's a possibility. Okay. So I wondered about the following. When you cut up an onion in a kitchen machine, which I think means for us like a robo coup or a cuisinard or something like this, but I'm going to start calling it a kitchen machine. That could be anything. No, I like, no, but that's the thing. what I love. Like any sort of thing that holds things, I'm like, ah, it's a bucket. You know what I mean? Like, ah, get the bucket. you know what I mean? But now I'm going to call everything the kitchen machine. I freaking love that. Like that, like if I got nothing else out of today's show, I got kitchen machine. So, uh, anyways, uh, whenever you cut up an onion in a kitchen machine, it starts to taste weird. I'd say oxidized. Is that what happens? If you make a sauce with those onions or meat patties with it, you will still taste it. I don't mind shopping by hand, but machines can be handy when stressed for time. Staying with aliums. also have an idea that lots of garlic has an off taste. I once read it was a fungal infection. Anything that you can do about it. I grew my own garlic. I never had any problems. Maybe that's because it was gone in no time. Um, okay. Uh, so here's another question, but I'm going to get these these first. So the 2nd question with the fungal infection. I haven't been able to find anything yet on that, but I didn't get a chance to go look at
+
+[41:09] my, uh, uh, you know, Alium's book by Eric Block, which is kind of the book on that. So if there was an off taste due to fungal stuff, then there would be that. Garlic ages drastically and changes in flavor over time as it's held. And as you know, because you grow your own garlic, you got to cure the garlic for it to be
+
+[41:28] optimum, but then I think past that curing point, it can change over time. And God knows how long the garlic in a regular supermarket's been sitting there and just desiccating and turning to garbage.
+
+[41:39] garbage. You don't like most of the garlic you get in the supermarketo, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that could be it too. I'll do some researching on fungal infections and garlic. That sounds gross, right? Yeah, Stas just hates a fungus. Not even looking, but I just saw the face she made. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If you know Nastasia at all and, you know, plant fungus and you like, yeah, like if you show her a leaf that has those weird things coming up out of it, like a fungus gets on the leaf and you get those weird leaf things that pop up those
+
+[42:08] bumps. chills right now. What was the word? Spores, right? Spore. Spore. Yeah, yeah, she hates she hates a spoor. Spoor. You know what, she hates even more than spoor. Sporulate. But, uh, process of making sports, sporulation. Okay, the... Yeah. Oh, but regards the onion. So onions in any alium, actually. Now they all have different, you know, whether you're using an onion, leek, garlic, or, you know, elephant garlic, any one of these things, they all have sulfur compounds in them that start out being relatively, you know, odorless and tasteless, but then when they are crushed, react when the cells are crushed, react with enzymes to create the classic kind of pungent, allium, garlic, onion flavors that we
+
+[42:58] know, and most of us, you know, if you have a soul, love. I, you know, there's all these people, I don't like onions, and then they're
+
+[43:06] like, literally, I was like, literally everything I've ever cooked for you and your whole freaking life has onions in it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't cook without onions. I mean, you can. Janus don't believe in using onions because they inflame the passions. So they use they use acafetid instead, which is fundamentally a substitute for the alium that apparently doesn't inflame the passions the way an onion. you ever feel inflamed by an onion by a cooked onion? Yeah, me neither. But, you know, but that's because we're so saturated with inflamed passions in our culture, you know, on every billboard. There's inflamed passions. And so, you know, onion is like, you know, peeing in the ocean to raise the tide compared to the inflamed passions we get here, we hear, you know, imagine if like, if that was your main problem in life is like the fact that the onions were getting you all hot and bothered.
+
+[43:48] That'd be kind of cool. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. Anywho. I don't know where I don't know what I got into that. But anyway, so like, pretty much, I mean, my wife doesn't like, and she gets so, like, thankfully, she doesn't listen. She won't get mad at me. She doesn't like raw onions. Me neither. Really? Yeah, they give me nightmares. Nightmares? You mean once you eat them, you have nightmares? Or thinking about eating them gizzy members. Once eaten. have nightmares. once eaten, then nightmares. So they inflame your fashions. Stas is a genus. She's gonna put a thing over her face so she hasn't eaten any bugs and sweep the ground before her, man. This is a whole new there's a conversion for stars. amazing. Anyway, so both Nastasia and my wife, not huge fans of raw onions, but burgers and raw onions. No? I like the idea a lot. I do, but I just it doesn't agree with me. What about when we slice them really thin and flash pickle them with vinegar? Yeah, like that. Okay, so okay. then I don't have to go crazy because I think it's just like the intense, like, to me, the bracing nature of a raw onion on like a burger or on a bagel, like with locks and
+
+[44:56] tomato. Like, it's that bracing thing that cuts through the fattiness of the rest of it.
+
+[45:00] Like a raw onion, cuts through a fatty flavor like nobody's business. You know what I mean? Anyway, so we're off topic. So when you, when you, when you crush, uh, them, they taste fundamentally different because more of the cells are ruptured and more of those reactions take
+
+[45:17] place. Now, uh, if you look, Harold McGee, friend of the shoe, and friend of ours, not just a show, I mean, like, you know, he's a legit friend, he's a good man, uh, he did a curious cook back when he was writing
+
+[45:29] that that thing for the, uh, not the book, but when he was writing the New York Times, um, uh, column called Curious Cook. He did one on this subject. And in fact, it's a review as well of Eric Block's book, Allium. So if you can go online, you can read the whole thing online and explains it. Remember when Harold McGee almost slipped on a banana peel? Whoa, so we were at Harvard one day and we're walking down the thing. And, you know, Harold McGee, if you never met Harold. He's like, you know, he's like pretty tall guy, right? He's like thin. He's like super dignified looking, right? But Harold's a dignified looking dude. You know what I'm saying? He usually has on like some form of like, you know, jacket. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he's like, looks like he looks like you would think Harold McGee would look like a dignified, like, nice guy. You know what I'm saying? And so we're walking in the Harvard Square. and swear to swear to God, he stepped on and did
+
+[46:20] the, did the leg in the air. The McGee's a runner, by the way. So he has good balance and like, you know, he's like, you know, very fit because
+
+[46:26] he's a, he runs like quite a bit. So but the leg actually went up, but he caught himself. He didn't go down, look down, swear to God it was a banana peel. He, like, McGee almost went down on the ground, like, McGilla gorilla style on a freaking banana
+
+[46:41] peel, and we were, both stars and I were like, oh, my God, did Harold McGee almost get taken out by, like, the oldest food joke cartoon trick in the
+
+[46:52] book. is nuts, right? I don't know, maybe what made you think of that? He said El McGee. I said Harold McGee, so you thought of banana peels? No I remember that. That is what reminds me of him, McGee. The banana. Wow, wow. Yeah. That's not most people's association. Anywho. So you can go read that and Stas hates anyhoo, so that's why I'm going to use it every 5 seconds now. Oh, it doesn't seem. So, uh, also, more reactions, secondary reactions take place. So if you crush something before you cook it, the longer it sits, the more it's
+
+[47:22] going to build up those kinds of harsher flavors that you are responding to when you cut it
+
+[47:28] in the kitchen machine. So, you're causing a lot of reactions to take place quickly because it's mashing the heck out of them. And secondly, they're probably sitting around because you're doing a lot of prep steps in larger cooking if you're going to use the kitchen machine. And so if you don't want those flavors, you're going to want to slice with a very fine knife, do as little damage as possible. And a lot of the people, I think like Cook's Illustrated. I don't know whether it was back in the days, Kenji was working for them or not, but it sounds like a Kenji thing. Kenji Lopez. Uh, you know, if you do the test of slicing an onion across ways versus a pole to pole. And whenever I say, oh, pull to pole. Now I have that you can dance song going through my head. Oh geez. But, you know, you rupture less tissue that way. And so you get less of those aromas. So you could do that test. But yeah, it's really, it's unavoidable. You could pre uh, blanch them before you put them in. and you'll get less of that of those reactions happening. So you could try that if you really still want to do that. Or, uh, if you course chop them before you, um, before you go hardcore and then dip those things briefly in boiling water
+
+[48:28] or simmering water into a soak and then chop them up, you'll blunt some of the, uh, some of it because you'll leave, leave some of it out. If you, I mean, interestingly, on garlic, if you cook garlic, not a pressure cooker, pressure cooker wipes out the ability to create these flavors later,
+
+[48:45] I've run this test, or can if you cook it for a long period of time. But if you just boil garlic enough to, um, enough to prevent the enzymes from working to destroy the enzymes and then crush that garlic, it won't get that crushed garlic
+
+[48:59] flavor. If, on the other hand, you then mix in a small amount of fresh garlic to that garlic
+
+[49:03] puree. The enzymes in the fresh garlic are enough to convert the chemicals in the cooked garlic
+
+[49:10] puree and the whole thing will go stank on you. But it doesn't happen if you pressure cook it. Anyway, this is semi-interesting for me. All right, so, I mean, it's interesting for me, but probably not for so many other folks. Anyway, last but not least. Mark wants to know, in a restaurant, I was served a lot of guinea fowl the other day, and it tasted reheated. I recall, if I recall correctly, you once talked about a special type of oxidation. How does one present this taste, vacuum and reheat, or I'll say it vacuum and reheating water bath, right? that's my question question. Uh, does it matter if you store the bird uh, cooked but unvacked in the fridge first? I know the restaurant has one of those steamer combi ovens. I tend to find that those can give a rather stale, dirty oven taste of food, which brings me to the question, can one clean those ovens well enough to prevent the taste from getting in on the
+
+[49:59] food? Thanks, be well, grazzi mark. Uh, so, uh, because he's Italian, so he says grazzi. It sounds like, Dave, don't ever speak a time. All right, so you say Grazzi. No. No, I'm bad at speaking. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, it's so weak. everyone's weird. I lost it. I lost my Italian. The same way you lost your Spanish? Yeah, it's going that way. The only the only half Mexican Los Angeles girl I've ever met who can't speak a lick of Spanish.
+
+[50:25] No, I can. You're getting it back? As you lose your Italian, you're getting your Spanish back? Well, you should talk to my kids. I tell you, my kids speak Spanish. No they're really good. No, man, they have they're really good. You know, they won't speak Spanish to me. I tell you, they will not will never speak Spanish to me. I'm like, why don't you help me learn Spanish? You should listen to this radio station in New York. They speak kind of Spanish, kind of English off and on the whole station. It'll help you learn. I thought about it in the cab the other day. Really? I only really know kitchen words. Do they teach? Do they speak in kitchen? Did they speak, they speak the news in English, Spanish in a really colloquial way? Would I be able to get some? Yeah, yeah. I think you should. I'll have to buy radio then. Uh, I only listen to internet radio and I only listen to the heritage radio. It just messed up. You're not kidding. I'm not kidding. I'm not. Wait, so what were you talking about before that? Oh, so the warmed over flavor. So on the combi ovens, cleaning the combi ovens. If you reheat in a combi oven, something that has been cooked already that has fat in it like birds, you are very likely to get that warmed over taste, which is an oxidation phenomenon.
+
+[51:31] I believe I haven't had time to look into it again, but I believe that storing it in an
+
+[51:37] oxygen free environment is a good idea even before you reheat it, but definitely when you're reheating it, you want to keep oxygen away from
+
+[51:45] it. I would assume that, uh, you know, keeping oxygen away from it, even when you're storing it, is also going to be an excellent idea. But I can't remember off the top of my head whether the warmed over
+
+[51:57] flavor is directly from oxygen during the reheat or whether it's a conversion oxidation that takes place based on kind of precursors or oxygen that was already in it.
+
+[52:07] In other words, if you were to store something open in a fridge and then vac it down and reheat it, would that prevent the warmed over flavor as effectively as vacuing it immediately and then storing it in the
+
+[52:18] fridge? I tend to think not because there's going to be a lot of oxidation, rancidity development in the fridge anyway. So anyway, so I would tend to think that's what's, that's what's going on. I haven't had guinea fal in a long time. Do you like any foul? I haven't had it. They eat a lot in Italy, didn't you? No? You can buy them at the at the local Pollo Vivo shops up, you know, up
+
+[52:38] in... Pigeon in Italy? No, no, they're bigger. No. Derek, were you with us when we went to the live poultry place years ago? And it's like the ones that are still being run, they're fundamentally run for halal reasons. But like, they always happen to be in predominantly Spanish neighborhoods in New York. And so we brought someone in there to, like, we brought Fabulous with us, and he kept on trying to speak to the guy in Spanish. The guy's like, I don't speak Spanish. Remember that? Were you there for that? No, I wasn't there. did he speak? But Fabulous kept on trying to speak to him in Spanish. He speaks English. Like, anyway, whatever. Uh, hello. I had a question for the radio show. This is from Peter Dale. Online, you can purchase Japanese tabletop grill, and it's my understanding that they're generally used indoors with a special type of expensive charcoal that burns clean.
+
+[53:25] That charcoal, by the way, is binchoton, and it is extremely expensive. Um, understandably, they all come with disclosure, saying they're not to be used inside. And I'm trying to figure out how much of that is justifiable fear of being sued versus actual health and safety risk. Is there an overwhelming risk of covering monoxide being generated by using it, say, on a windowsill or in front of a windowsill with a box
+
+[53:47] fan, Peter Dale? Okay, so here's the deal. Burning coal, burning anything inside, really, generates carbon monoxide. I don't know specifically whether or not the binch of tan is supposed to burn cleaner. However, clean is a relative thing. You know, carbon monoxide is odorless. Carbon monoxide is colorless and carbon monoxide isn't smoky looking or smelling. That's why it's so deadly. My general feeling is I am not, most people I know are incredibly worried about carbon monoxide, but I mean, I live in, you know, if, for instance,
+
+[54:27] like, here's how you're going to die from carbon monoxide. If you fall asleep in your garage with the door shut in your car on, right? Because you're generating carbon monoxide and there's no way for the air to get in. If you, in fact, there has been, there's the famous case of someone using charcoal grills
+
+[54:44] to, um, kill themselves was the lead singer of Boston. Yeah. Last time. you're right on that one. Boston. He used a bunch of, but I don't know whether it was... How does that go there, name? Boston. It sounds like you always got to go to Boston. But the, but I don't remember whether or not there was other things or whether it was the actual monoxide that did it, but he did something like... No, he had 2 different,
+
+[55:07] like, he had a backup plan, too. Yeah, but he had like 3 different charcoal burners, I think, going in his bedroom and he locked. We had it. Well, anyway, in a closed thing and he plugged up the, the, the, what's, what am I, what's the, under the door? Yeah, under the door. Yeah. He plugged that up and he closed all the windows. The reason he wanted to commit suicide. It's not that kind of show. I'm just saying, Boston is one of David, my favorite bands. One of many. I like them. Yeah, but this kind of sourdough. Whatever, whatever. This is not the kind of... I know. What? You brought up the suits. I brought it up because I'm trying to say that charcoal can be dangerous, but if you're in a sealed freaking room, like, you know, and you light 3 charcoal things, this is like a little charcoal thing
+
+[55:54] of a jig, you know what I mean? He's going to put it near a windowsill, and I'm going to say you're fine. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm going to say. Go ahead and say you're fine with it. But, you know. whatever. Yeah, whatever. Besides, do you mostly like classic rock? Yeah. Well, it's not just classic rock. Boston, dude. Sorry, generalizing there. And you know, when you look at the old album covers from Boston, This is the thing I always thought, like Delp, who's the singer, right? Like, I always thought he was really short because the album covers, but it's really just everyone else in Boston is, like, super
+
+[56:36] tall. Or as they'd say, wicked tall. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I don't want to get sued here, man. That's true. Man, especially with the subject that we were talking about. I hear that they're not necessarily, they weren't like the friendliest of folk. You know, their geniuses, whatever. believe it at that. Okay. So on the way out. I recently discovered the show last year and have become devoted listener from over here in tropical Glasgow, Scotland. I love Glasgow. You've never been to Scotland. The Glaswegians are an interesting group. Glaswegians. They are. They're an interesting group of folk. And by the way, it's this Luke from Glasgow. I myself am also a fan of the Buckfist wine. So next time you're coming to New York, bring some buck with you and we'll go, we'll get, that's the kind of glass, that's Glasgow crump juice, even though it's not made in Glasgow. It's like, it's like the it's like the Thunderbird of Glasgow. And so like everyone says that like Glaswegians like pound, uh, like this buck fist and then they go ape. That was a 69 Cobra Grow, with my good friend, Tony C, and I think it was David Brune, the Scotch expert who brought some buckfist, and we rotovapped it, and we made like a buckfist syrup, and then we had like an Oda Buckfist V, which
+
+[57:56] was whatever. Come on. Anyway. okay whatever. So anyway, I cook a lot with miso, but I've read conflicting information online about the right temperature to cook it. I've read that you shouldn't let the miso get above 60 degrees Celsius, but this is rarely
+
+[58:11] mentioned, so I'm wondering if there's any scientific basis for it. Um, I don't, I was not able to find any scientific basis for it. 60. I mean, I've done a lot of work, not in miso, uh, but, you know,
+
+[58:23] so like, let's let's just backtrack here. Some people online with the miso cooking. They worried about destroying the probiotics, right? And so they don't want you to heat it too high because you're destroying the probiotics. Me, I don't so much care about that. And I, like, on more, on many, many, many occasions have heated me so well above that temperature, both in soup applications. Because who the hell serves a soup at 60 C size? You're gonna bring, by the time you bring, by the time you bring it to the table, it's weak. You know what I'm saying? Jack, do you want a soup that's below 60 degrees Celsius? Definitely not. Hell no. Hell no. Uh, so anyway, that's that's my feeling. People like stir me so away at the end. Now, I like miso straight out of the box. In fact, like this morning, I had some cheddar cheat. I'm a dumbass. It's so salty. But I whip I put Akamiso just directly on cheddar cheese and eat it. isn't that weird? It's weird, right? Anyway, I use miso a lot, but I have no qualms about boiling it. It changes the flavor, but I don't think it destroys it or it doesn't turn it into poison. So if you like the flavor of it when it goes above that temperature, and I haven't read anything or found anything that there's a direct,
+
+[59:28] like once you reach over 60 degrees, a certain, uh, certain, uh, flavor compound is destroyed, or another thing has been generated that is an off flavor, but I'm
+
+[59:37] going to keep my eye out for it. But I will say this. On 60 degrees, the one thing where 60 degrees is a relevant number is on combo. So if you're looking at making kombu, which is a seaweed, not the miso part of it, but kombudashi, when you do the kombu, the temperature of steeping is important
+
+[59:55] for the flavor, and we go back on the cooking issues, I think you can still get it on the line. Uh, we did a bunch of temperature tests, 60, 70, uh, and then up near the
+
+[1:00:04] boil. And I forget whether we like 60 or 70 best, but it's in that range of 60 or 70, and that we verify by
+
+[1:00:10] side by side taste test. Now we could do, I don't really, I'm not really set up for it right now, but someday if I can, I can try to do the side by side of taking miso, backbagging it, and then putting it under 3 different temperature regimes
+
+[1:00:21] in a backbag and seeing whether or not they're altered or how they taste. That'd actually be an interesting test for maybe someone out there in cooking issues, listening land can run that test for me and figure out what they
+
+[1:00:32] say. Most miso we get is crap anyway. But I'm assuming that you're getting high quality miso. Because your 2nd question is, do you have any tips for making udon noodles? I've just started making my own and they're coming out beige rather than translucent white. I've been making them with a white bread flour for the high gluten content and some tapioca starch for dusting. Any tips for making killer noodles would be much appreciated. Thanks to the whole crew for a great show on heritage and the amazing blog podcast. One quick note, final note. I was watching Diana Kennedy's presentation at the Mad Conference, which is that Denmark thing. last year and she talked about the problem of waste plastic from vacuum ceiling for sous vide cooking.
+
+[1:01:08] Is it impossible or just inconvenient to create reusable vacuum bags? Uh, well, let's go backwards, right? Well, go to the Udon first. So my preliminary not being, I've done a lot more work with Soba than I have with Udon, and so I don't have a lot of firsthand knowledge on Udon, but I did some preliminary research on the technical literature of
+
+[1:01:29] Udon, and higher protein flowers in Udon correlate with darker color.
+
+[1:01:37] So I'm trying to figure out whether there is some work around. And of course, Udan's not supposed to be as hard and snappy as some of the other things, but I'm going to try to see, and I started reading a document called Japanese
+
+[1:01:48] noodle makers preferences for flower types. But I didn't get a chance to finish it before it goes on. So hopefully I can get some more information, go back on that. But on the, on the back bags, it is not really feasible to do a washout on
+
+[1:02:03] the, on the back bags. I mean, it is. I mean, I have done it, but it sucks. and you always get cross-contamination and it gets wrinkly. You know what I'm saying? And then it's hard to seal right. And also every time you seal the bag, you lose like that ceiling area. And then the next time you put it on, you have to put a couple inches over the seal
+
+[1:02:20] bar and you keep going, keep going, keep going. And so the bags get used up over time. What I think is feasible and will happen someday is they will develop a biodegradable bag that can be,
+
+[1:02:32] in fact, they have biodegradable bags that are sealable now. It's just they're not really used for cooking. I think it's like the whole system was built around this non-biodegradable thing. And I know, I feel, I feel her pain, uh, But I don't really think about it with sous vide bags. I think the primary problem 1st is shopping bags, but like I hate plastic shopping bags now. I said ever since I went and took that trip to Senegal and I saw like all these beautiful landscape totally marred by plastic trash bags. I've been trying to kick the plastic trash bag habit, um, entirely. With sous vide. I think there's the real possibility for biodegradable bags. It's just that technology needs to be upped a little better. There's some issues with some of the bags out there now. Like, for instance, like a lot of times if you ask for a completely biodegradable packaging on bags,
+
+[1:03:19] um, they have problems with the resins that they can form them fine, but then they don't necessarily
+
+[1:03:24] um, adapt well to further forming later on down the road because of moisture absorption and other problems like
+
+[1:03:30] that. They might not also be good for industry because they're not going to be as shelf stable over a long period of time in a food application. But that wouldn't be a big deal for a cook. So I just don't know whether there's a big enough market for someone to have developed it yet, but maybe there is. The other thing you could do is you could do a completely like dishwasher and people have these silicones. You've seen these, people have now silicone bags that, um, you can reseal and you can use them
+
+[1:03:53] in storage and you can wash them out a bunch of times. The issue there is that the vacuum machines that are currently on the market, the
+
+[1:03:59] chamber vacs in particular, aren't designed to work with those, but they definitely could be. In a current chamber vacuum machine, what happens is you suck the air out of the chamber. Then when the vacuum cycle is over, a rubber bar pushes up into a heat ceiling
+
+[1:04:14] bar and the heat ceiling bar turns on the electricity and seals the bag, then the air is let
+
+[1:04:18] back in. But just as easily, you could have it, instead of pushing up into a heat seal bar, you could have it push up into a
+
+[1:04:27] ziploc, uh, Johnson's family company. You could have it push up into a ziploc closure and have that pressure bar
+
+[1:04:33] closes, close it like a zippy without using a heat seal, and then you could presumably use
+
+[1:04:39] a like a silicone bag like that over and over again, but you'd have to have the equipment designed around
+
+[1:04:44] it and that just hasn't happened yet. So I think the future for the ability to do low temperature cooking in a sealed and
+
+[1:04:50] bag-like environment in a way that's more sustainable is could be
+
+[1:04:55] bright. I don't know whether anyone's working on the problem yet. But my ¢2 Oh, I already talked about Udon. And that's a wrap. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:05:09] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects,
+
+[0:04] discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our
+
+[0:15] showrooms, where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
+
+[0:20] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:57] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. What? Cooking issues. I've been choosing my voice today. Maybe it's because my voice buds are frozen. We have voice buds? Voice box, frozen. It is snowing like a demon out, but I'm still coming to you live a little late because the subway was shafting me. I usually I'm late and it's my own fault, right, Stas? Yep. Because I'm disorganizing a bad person all around. Today I'm actually going to blame the weather. Although I noticed that Jack made it here on time, as did Nastasia, so maybe, and they're both coming from Manhattan. That's right, now I come from Manhattan. In fact, farther away. were you guys on the L train today? Yes. No. Well, yes, Beth Tell. F-Tell. F-Tell. Ada, L. Ada, L. yeah I was just on whatever. People don't care. Call any questions live two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Um, so we haven't actually have an event tonight, right, Stas? I think it's going to go on? Really? Yeah. talk to her. And she's like, we're going to do it? Oh, yeah. She's excited about a hot drink, everything. We don't have a hot drink. I told her we were working to work on one, so... Yeah, like, so we're doing this event tonight at a place called Feel NYC. And, you know, one of the partners, fuel food. Yeah. But what's funny is, is that our friend, who's, you know, one of the partners there, Galen Quinn, who runs the Bogota Food and Wine Festival, or Wine and Food Festival, I can never keep it straight. She, uh, she's from Columbia. She calls it Phil food, like Phil, like our friend Phil Bravo. And she can't, like, literally cannot hear the difference between the words fill and feel. So we were busting, we were busting our chops yesterday on the feel feel phenomenon. phenomenon, film, phenomenon. Anyway, but so I can't believe we're going to do an event with cocktails with people like arriving as it's like dumping buckets of snow on
+
+[2:44] us. But, hey, that's life. That how it's cut. We agree to do it. So we do what? We do it. We do it. All right. So we got some questions in on knives. Deer cooking issues team. I have a simple. have a simple knife question. Although it's not so simple as it turns out, most things are not so simple, right? On a whim, I recently bought a 10 inch knife blank, the listing claimed it was a 100-year-old
+
+[3:08] sabatier blank. You know, Sabatier is like the French, like the French knives. You familiar with those? Sabatier blank, you know, French, the French knife pattern, the like the old Sabatier pattern is different from the kind of standard German chef's knives that we all kind of grew up with. Like, you know, in the US, you know, if you, you know, if you're my age,
+
+[3:30] um, you know, when you were younger, no one really had the Japanese or the Japanese Western stuff. They weren't very popular, I don't think, until probably the 90s, you know,
+
+[3:41] like, you know, some somewhere in the late 90s, somewhere around there with the US people. So, you know, in the in the early 90s and the late 80s and early 90s, everyone wanted their their Hankles and their
+
+[3:52] Vostovs, right? And if you were going to get, you know, a Japanese chess knife to do Western style work, most likely you'd
+
+[4:00] get, um, like a Mac. You know what I mean? The Macs that you would get, like we're semi in, you know, kind of the newer style Japanese western pattern, but more, you know, akin to
+
+[4:11] Japanese takes on Western knives. These are the ones I was kind of grew up being exposed to. But, you know, most of us, uh, or most people I knew didn't really have a set of uh, French pattern knives. And the French pattern, the knife actual, the handle style and
+
+[4:27] the shape of the knife, a little bit different from the German style, actually quite like it. So I so I, in fact, my favorite knife that I have. That's a Western knife is because I have my favorite Japanese knives, but my favorite Western knife is, in fact, a 10 inch sabache knife, old, really freaking old carbon
+
+[4:47] steel that I found at a flea market for 2
+
+[4:52] bucks. And it was, you know, it was rusty, but not like too rusty on the blade section, so it didn't have, didn't have any real wasting or loss of metal in the actual edge.
+
+[5:02] There was some pitting in the belly of the blade itself, but nothing on the edge. and so I was able to take it. and that thing, that thing's a demon, except for people keep picking it up, using it without my
+
+[5:12] permission and then leaving it wet, which really makes me want to,
+
+[5:16] if people do not, 1st of all, don't use other people's knives, right? Like, unless you ask, don't use somebody else's knife. Yeah, straight up. Like, remember at the SCI, I had a set of Japanese knives, also carbon steel, so they rusted, and some, and I had a new Suba, which is, you know, the vegetable carving knife. It's got a very, like, flat blade. It's meant for like turning daikons and stuff into those sheets. And, you know, I bought it at a time when the yen was not quite as good as it is against a dollar now. So it wasn't ridiculously expensive. But still, I think it set me back like a 100 and something bucks, and now it's like a 150 or a $185 knife or something like that. And some jack wad picked it up, thought it was, I guess, I don't know what the hell they thought it was, a cleaver, and they hit it into bones and took giant scallop marks out of
+
+[6:08] it and made it entirely useless and then left it wet. So I came back to my knife kit. They were kind enough to put it away, but they put it away and left it ruined, completely ruined. I've never been so angry about something that's happened in a kitchen to my equipment ever. And I was like, why would anyone ever pick up somebody else's knife? But so this is the problem about having nice stuff in a communal environment. And, you know, my home now, because, you know, people come through, it amounts in some ways to a communal environment. So anyway, it's hard to keep sometimes carbon knife in good shape, which
+
+[6:36] is, you know, why you should, you know, be protective. This making sense? It's not really the question, but you ever have a carbon knife? The advantages of the carbon steel knives. Are they ridiculously easy to sharpen? They take, you know, they they don't, uh, they're a pain in terms of, you know, uh, taking care of them. Like whenever I use mine, I wipe it down after use and I put a thin coat of oil on it, you know, at the end of the night. I wipe it after each use, and then at the end of the night, I put a thin coat of oil on and put away, and it's been fine for years, but it's just a little more use, but it takes an edge
+
+[7:08] extremely well. I don't think the edge lasts longer than. I mean, the new, the new steals, the edge, the new steals that they have are crazy, you know, uh, and so, you know, I'm sure from an actual performance standpoint, but the fact that it takes an edge so easy, so easily means that you, you know, you can, a couple swipes on my, on my, uh, on my
+
+[7:26] stone and the sucker is, you know, like a, like a, like a slicing
+
+[7:30] machine. That's my favorite thing to slice steaks with steaks. Anyway, uh, okay. So, uh, I bought a 10 inch knife blank, and the listing claimed it was a 100-year-old Sabatier blank, recently discovered in a
+
+[7:42] warehouse, squarehouse in how do you think you pronounced, uh, like, I should know, because it's French, right? But, uh, TA, union TA, pronounced, written in English, Thiers. But I think it's probably TA. How is it spelled? Fears. Like F-E-A-R-S? No, like T-H-I. I would guess it's like TA or something like that. T.A. I don't know. But you never know with them, right? They could be like, douche, you're supposed to pronounce the RS on that one. You're like, of course, they don't understand douche. That's my favorite thing about French people is that they don't understand the douche insult. They're like, shawo, shawo sack? I'm not going into German. Anyway, I have problems. I've got the pronunciation. What is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was pretty close. And made from virgin steel not used today. With this story, I couldn't pass it up, but I've been having trouble finding someone willing to transform the blank into a functioning knife.
+
+[8:33] I was rebuffed. I like that. Buff's a good word. I was rebuffed by one custom Brooklyn knife maker, and he could not point me to any other knife makers who would be willing to do the job, and he suggested that this require heat rather than just sharpening as well. Uh, I really have a good 8 inch chef's knife at home that I keep sharp with a DMT system. Those are the diamond, uh, anyway. I like them, DMT. But system. So this is not an especially urgent task. However, just holding the blank makes my current knife feel like safety scissors against
+
+[9:03] Excalibur. So who and where do I go to turn this blank into a real knife, preferably here in New York, but maybe this task is not as simple as I had originally
+
+[9:12] thought. Uh, and then uh, is from Patrick. And, um, he did, he put in the description from uh, from the eBay. And by the way, for those of you interested in this problem, the person who he bought it from, if you if you look Sabatier blank, there are some eBay auctions currently from the same guy still up, you can still go
+
+[9:31] buy one of these if this is something that interests you. Yeah, it's not as simple as you thought. If you, if you go look, if you guys look it up and you go on eBay and see what you, what we have
+
+[9:42] here is you have a, a blank just after the forging step, right? So it's a whole, you know, blank with the metal entire, but it, it,
+
+[9:51] uh, it looks like it's only gone through the 1st step. So what happens after you forge it is you have to do something called annealing. And the annealing is to make it soft to work and get rid of some of the stresses. So you're going to anneal it, and annealing it, you're going to take it up to a fairly high temperature like somewhere like 1450 or so Fahrenheit, and you're going to hold it there for a while, and you're going to cool it very, very, very slowly. And what that's going to do is it's going to bring the metal into a very soft state that's easily worked. And I think it also gets rid of some of the stress. And that is so that you can do the kind of the grinding and to get it down to almost finished, except for the actual edge itself, you want to get it
+
+[10:30] down because if you look at the picture that you have of the blank, it has like a lot of forging marks in it that you can still see in
+
+[10:37] the picture. After you do that, right? Now you have to harden the guy. So you have to, you're gonna, you're gonna anneal it, then you're gonna do, uh, kind of whatever, uh, work you're gonna do on it, then you might do something called, uh, normalization, which is another thing similar to annealing, but not quite as, uh, not quite as slow a cooling. The reason you cool it slowly is when you heat the steel up to a high temperature, uh, you, um, change the state of the metal. It goes from being, you know, a mix of whatever it happens to
+
+[11:10] be in whatever state it is, partially probably hardened from working, partially
+
+[11:14] not in kind of an ostentitic state, which is a non-magnetic state. And then if you cool it very slowly, it forms into,
+
+[11:22] you know, a very soft structure, whereas if you cool it very quickly, you know, a portion of it, hopefully a large portion of it turns to Martin site, which is a lot harder, which
+
+[11:29] is what, you know, hardened steel. So, so anyhoo, so you want to cool it, not as slowly as it kneeling, but relatively slowly, to kind of, you know, produce a finer grain structure and get rid of any kind of imperfections in it that might cause problems with
+
+[11:43] the with the hardening which you're about to do. Now I don't know whether that steps fully necessary or not, but a lot of people seem to recommend it. Then you're going to uh, heat it up again to that same high temperature and then quench it like a mother in oil very quickly so that
+
+[11:58] uh, the metal does not have the time to uh, to go into its softer state instead frozen in the harder Martin City state, right? Does that make sense? Then it's really shattering, like it's going to be shatter brittle like glass. So then you need to take it and heat it up again to a tempering stage, which is
+
+[12:14] a lower temperature. That, you know, is much easier to accomplish because the other temperatures are like 1450, that kind of
+
+[12:19] thing. You need a real, like a kind of a forge or a kiln to do that, right? The other one is a little bit lower, is a tempering thing. That can be done kind of more reasonable step. So you do that to kind of make it not as brittle. You temper it maybe once, maybe twice, depending on who you listen to. And there you have your blade. After you temper it, then you have to put scales on it, right? You know, wooden parts, right? You don't have to use wood, you could use whatever you want. Like a lot of people use, uh, uh, like phenolic compounds, bone, or whatever you want, and rivet it down, sand down the, uh, sand down the, uh, handle so it's nice, and then put your final uh, polish and your edge
+
+[12:57] on it. So in other words, to put it in, you know, to put it this way, it's a lot of freaking work. And to have someone do a one-off custom job on something like this is going to cost a lot of money, like much more than just going and buying a high quality old
+
+[13:13] sabatier chefs knife. At least I would charge a lot, you know, if I was going to do something like that. And that's probably one of the reasons why the custom knife maker that you that you dealt with was like, why would I do that? I'm a custom knife make. I want to make my own knives. I don't want to do that to this other knife. Now, they're probably being a little bit of a jerk about it because everyone's, everyone who does something like that for a living. like including myself, like when someone's like wants someone comes to me and wants me to make somebody else's cocktail. I'm like, why would I do that? That's ridiculous. You know what I mean? So everyone who does this stuff for a living, like they're kind of jerks, but, and they're kind of not understanding towards someone who's not directing on the inside of their business, but that's just the nature of someone who cares about what they do.
+
+[13:49] I mean, the problem is it's going to be hard to find someone who cares about what they do, who is willing to do it for a reasonable
+
+[13:54] price, and who doesn't care about the whole process in general. Does that make sense to us? So anyway, so I think you've bitten off quite a bit, but I think it's a really interesting project. If you go on kitchen knife forums. There's a guy there named Devin Thomas, who's a very famous maker. I've never touched one of his knives, but they're, you know, a chef's knife from Devin Thomas is upwards of like 1500 bucks, if you can get it because they're made one off their custom. And he's a maker of crazy, crazy pattern Damascus style steels that he makes himself, both stainless and carbon Damascus steels. And he wrote in that he bought one, like 20 years ago from the same guy and made a knife with it. And this is what he says to do. Should you find someone who's willing to do it? Um, he says, uh, a Neil, at 1454, uh, one hour, drop the temperature to 1275 for 4
+
+[14:43] hours, and then cool in the furnace, uh, to harden it, soak uh, at roughly uh, 1500 degrees Fahrenheit for uh, 10 minutes, and then quench in oil, and then temper immediately for one hour uh, between 350 and 400
+
+[14:58] degrees uh, Fahrenheit, uh, one or 2 times. One time for more toughness. Sorry, 11, 2 times for more toughness and one hour for more wear resistance, i.e. longer keeping edge.
+
+[15:09] But that is not something that the average person, I
+
+[15:13] think, could do. Although I have to say, I love the oldest Sabate Nas. I love them. Anyway, does that make sense? Devin Thomas. You should go take a look at his knives, by the way. I mean, I looked, you can't even, you can't buy them. It's crazy. Like, I think maybe Matt from, uh, Chef Matt from, uh, uh, Sambar might have one because he's kind of a knife nut. Anyway. All right. Should we take a should take a quick break? Let's take a quick break. more cooking issues.
+
+[16:05] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods, USA.com.
+
+[16:33] And we're back. So that's interesting. We're being hosted by the parent company today, huh? Oh, yeah. They, uh, they got some pretty good pork over there. Yeah, I didn't know we were the largest distributor of heritage pigs and turkeys. Heritage breed, yeah. But are we are not the distributor of the largest breeds of pigs and
+
+[16:52] turkeys as far as I know. No, no. The opposite. Yeah, the turkey, the turkeys are delicious. Anyone who's had one knows this, but they're not like the jacked
+
+[17:04] up like, you know, super like gym going birds that... athletic birds. They fly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, I forget how much they weigh. How much did they weigh at Thanksgiving time? You remember? They were like, they were like on the, more like on the £15 side, right? Yeah, that's more common. Yeah, not on like the £25 like monster turkey. 18, 19 is as big as you're getting with those guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should figure out like how to get the, like, I'm sure they could grow some sort of like a giant mega heritage breed turkey if they wanted
+
+[17:36] to. Wow, only you could find out. We can do it. Of course, the heritage breed pigs will grow bigger. You know, if you let them live longer. You know, the advantage of letting the pigs live longer. Well, it depends on what you want, right? I mean, like we slaughter our animals so young, typically here in the US. which is one of the reasons if you go back and you read, uh, dry cured meat products by Fidel Toldra, which, by the way, I don't recommend. It's not a very scintillating read. I mean, it's good from an informational standpoint. I'm sure it's horribly out of date and Fidel Toldra has written other books since this one, which is written, I think, in the late 90s. I own it. like technical book. Boring. I mean, it's not boring. It's boring. I mean, like stars, you would find it intensely boring, but it has information in it that I'm glad I have in my head now. One of those pieces of information is that the muscular
+
+[18:21] enzyme makeup of an animal is dependent on its age. And that for dry cured, long age, dry cured meat products, the enzyme
+
+[18:31] balance or the enzyme makeup, rather in older hogs, is more conducive to creating a higher
+
+[18:39] quality, long age product. In addition, the meat from older hogs or older animals in general tastes incredibly different. Now, Jeffrey Steingarten, who, by the way, like, wants to get in touch with us, but then he didn't call us back. I've talked to Jeffrey in a long time, but Jeffrey, so here's 2 different styles,
+
+[18:55] right, of thought. So you got your Harold McGee and your Jeffrey Steingarten, both of whom went to Spain
+
+[19:00] to taste very old meats. So there's a bunch of restaurants in Spain that specialize in, you know,
+
+[19:08] you know, cooking older animals, like seven-year-old cows, things like this. you know, older, things that we don't get here in the US, I think, and I think even older, you know, mutton, very age
+
+[19:16] mutton, things like this. So, McGee, this like Stas knows, McGee is like just explaining like kind of how awesome it is and like maybe I can, you know, how can I get it, blah, blah,
+
+[19:27] blah. And Steiger is just rubbing in my face that he got to have this awesome stuff that I can't have. You know what I'm saying? Steingard loves it, she loves. It's like Steingarten, you know, was invited to one of the Ordolon dinners that they had, uh,
+
+[19:39] maybe, maybe they did, maybe they didn't have it at, uh, I think at Le Circa, and also maybe once at Danielle, back in like the 90s, and rubs in my face all the
+
+[19:47] time that he's had the Ordolon. like, how was he? He's like, delicious. Because he doesn't care that I can't have it. You know what I mean? I shouldn't say he doesn't care. He revels in the fact that I want it and I can't have it, I think. Which is not to say he's mean. He just likes a good, he likes a good nose rub. You know what I mean? Anyway, I owe him a call. Anywho. Okay. What was it talking about? Oh, Fidel Toldra. So the age of the animal, also not only from the enzyme standpoint, but the actual flavor of the muscle is going to be
+
+[20:13] different. I don't have any personal experience on that. Uh, but all the data shows uh, that release the data from the late 90s shows that, um, older pigs equal better pigs from a ham standpoint. I'm talking about curing hands, long, long-term age products. I don't know, whatever. That's neither here nor there. Okay. Hi, Dave, is it from Sam? Hi, Dave, can you talk a little bit about your philosophy of dishes and flatware? I don't think you've ever talked in depth about the subject on the air. Sam. Well, that's interesting. You know, most chefs who, um, cook food for a living, they care
+
+[20:50] extremely uh, deeply about their, both the, the plates. I think mostly about the plates, right? Uh, not, not to play it, plates, all service wear. And then probably, uh, after that about the, um, about the flatware. And I think that there's kind of, you know, at home,
+
+[21:11] it's a lot, it's a lot different. If you're going to go professional, right, especially in like a super high-end restaurant, a low-end restaurant, you just need something that's going to show off
+
+[21:20] the show off the food well, right? So you go with something simple, but a lot of high-end restaurants, like, you know,
+
+[21:25] what, like Mark has how many different kinds of things at Del Posto. Yeah, but you know, the thing is, like, the cost investment, because at a high-end restaurant, the service, the plates that you have need to
+
+[21:36] be of the quality that you're like, you're not like, man, this is thick and
+
+[21:42] crappy. I could have this in my own house and it's not a big, you know what I mean? Like it needs to have a certain level of kind of quality and panache, but it needs to be tough enough to not get totally banged
+
+[21:52] up or else the costs are going to go through the roof because each one of these plates caught. You remember he was saying how much some of those plates cost? Like those ones we shattered at our event? We shattered at the MoFat event a couple years ago, we shattered probably how many? Like 15 or 20 and they're probably like $75 plates or something like that. plates. Anyway. So, you know, if you're going to have something for a long time, you have it, but then you, you know, bringing a new plate in, you have to think
+
+[22:16] about how many different dishes am I going to get out of this plate, right? So like I've been to restaurants and I won't name any names, but they're like, I really like this weird plate,
+
+[22:25] right? And then because they invested in this weird plate, I get this plate 3 or 4 times during the meal on a large course
+
+[22:30] out meal on a tasting plate, you know, on a tasting menu, and you're like, enough with the crazy plate. You know what I mean? Enough. You know what I'm saying, status? Have you ever had that happen? Where, like, someone like, they buy that, like, I don't know, it's shaped like a wave or like some sort of a crazy oval and then they bust it out like 3 and 4 times because they kind of need to. No, I haven't had that. Yeah. I mean, the flip side of this is if you have a tasting, look, so you can either go on a tasting. Some people do the almost entirely one plate, right? And then the plate's blank canvas. And then you have to choose a plate that you like that fits your style, typically white, thin, beautiful,
+
+[23:05] right? And then you're going to need another one that is slightly dished. Like maybe you get a charger that's slightly dished. That way, if you serve something, it's not a full on soup, but it's brothy and you don't want with a wide lip, that something can go into it. Right? Then you need some form of soup. Usually, you know, I would go for a wide soup, because you go wide soup, you can do a lot more than you can do thin. It's more elegant to have like a wide soup than a thin soup, right? When you say Stas? And then, if you want a salt and pepper it, that's when you pull out the, like the cheap dish. That's where you go to Chinatown, you go, and you buy, like, you know, the less expensive stuff in the pretty colors, like the ceramics that don't cost an arm and a leg, and you can kind of buy on a lark and switch out for a plating thing here or
+
+[23:46] there, or switch up if you have something weird into sake cups and other things that are, you know, that are
+
+[23:52] less, you know, less expensive. So, I mean, if you had to, and even at home, I would say, and this is what I've done, is you invest in, you invest in a good, uh, very kind of neutral, but, you know, beautiful, like, basic set that allows you to do chargers, that allows you to do normal plate stuff, smaller stuff, like bread and butters, you know, B&B plates, and, uh, you know, maybe like, uh, you know, a,
+
+[24:17] a more wide flat soup, and then, uh, a regular soup bowl, and then just buy a bunch of weird, weird stuff that you do for
+
+[24:22] one offs, like for events and parties and stuff. What do you think? You agree with that? On the, I mean, like, you know, the exact opposite extreme of this is Grand Acre. at a lineea. you've ever eaten in Italy. You ever read there? I've eaten there a couple times and it's like all customized hyper stuff. Uh, you know, hyper customized different things, but, you know, I think that's very difficult for the average person to, A, pay for and
+
+[24:44] B to support in their in their kind of restaurant. I mean, like he has dishes. He has dishes that are built for dishes, if that makes sense. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Dishes built for dishes for specific dishes. Pieces of ceramic things to eat dishes off. You know what I'm saying? Flatware. You know, I love, uh, I love flatware. Uh, but I don't, I, you know, I don't think about having like lots of tons of different kinds of flatware. I'm not a giant fan. I am. When I go to the old school, like, French place. Do you like going to old school French restaurants? I love it. You know, if there was a time when I, you know, I don't know, I went to a bunch of in a row and I was like, but then, and I, you know, I kind of lost the kind of love for it, but then, you know, I remember once, uh, years and years ago, I hadn't been to an old school French restaurant a long time, and I went to Danielle, uh, and I had the, like the whole, the full on old school, Danielle French, like nothing new, like nothing that had been kind of invented as a technique, you know, after
+
+[25:42] Escolfier. Like they just busted out all, except for, it was not when you can sell was the pastry chef at the time, so there was some newer stuff there. But I mean, like, really old school French stuff. And I was like this is awesome. You know what I mean? This is like super awesome. And then they bring out the fish fork. Do you like the fish fork with the little notch in it? So for that kind of stuff, I like that. And normally, I'm like, you know, I just want some normal, like good quality flatware. I don't like a lot of weird handles. I hate the weird handle. I hate anything that feels weird in my hand. I want the I want the fork and the knife to be like a sensual extension of my body and I don't want any sort of
+
+[26:18] weirdness there. What about you, Stas? I like you fancy. Flatware. No, but do you like weird handle? Oh, yeah. Really? I hate a weird handle. I hate a thin handle doing a thing. Well, if you're doing a thing. Wait, what kind of a thing? Like French thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, like, you know, a high quality hand, like, you don't want, you ever have one of those things where someone makes like a handle and it's like a wire
+
+[26:40] almost, and it's like this weird created handle and you're like, when you're holding it, it doesn't feel substantial. No. So my wife designed flatware for a while. And uh, this, one of these like salt, you know how there's like every, every business has these salty old guys. He was like, we got the prototypes back and Jen was looking at him and the guy was like, hey, yeah, uh, those are nice, but then they're going to sell. And Jem was like, why not? He's like, they're just not heavy enough. It doesn't even, he's like, literally, he's like, it doesn't matter what it looks like. Put the sucker on a scale, and if the knife and fork don't weigh X amount, they will not sell. Like, so, you know, she just beefed it up a little bit so that the weight was right. But if you hold something thin or light in your hands, you're like, this is not a
+
+[27:21] satisfying implement. So, you know, I think, and ever since then, I was like, you know, damn, this crusty old dude's right. And, you know, I feel for heft in my hand. So I like a good heft in my flatwear. Now, drinkware, it, like, you know, also at the bar, if you've ever been to Booker and Dax, we don't really stock lots of like loony, loony toony glassware, you
+
+[27:48] know? I'm a kind of a believer in getting a relatively small number of glasses
+
+[27:54] and, you know, just going that way. you know, but it bars a little bit different. So you could invest in a boatload of different weird things, but in general, all of the drinks are designed around certain volumes anyway. And so unless you bring in a whole new category of drinks. Like when we brought in the red hot poker drinks, while we're like, okay, now we need a coffee cup. We don't stock like 5 different coffee cups for each different kind
+
+[28:16] of drink. You know what I mean? Each different red hot poker drink. Or, you know, most shaken drinks fit in either a koop glass or the two-thirds koop glass. And so that's all we have. You know, and it hasn't really served a purpose for us to have a zillion. In fact, we don't even have highball glasses because we don't do that kind of drink. I kept I keep on telling the bartenders, though, I'll buy the highball glasses if they can make a drink
+
+[28:40] that's that forces me to buy them. You like highballs? Me too. What do you think of, like, the cocktail and a mason jar thing? What do I think of the cocktail and a mason jar thing? Look, I'm going to piss some people off. Mason jars. are not particularly pleasant to drink out of because the lip of them is
+
+[28:59] really, really thick. And the only really reason to have a thick rimmed glass is like a coffee mug or something like that that you kind of want your lips to be around and you want the mass of
+
+[29:08] the of the glass to provide some sort of either cooling and or warming property to it. In general, I favor glasses with thin rims. So, you know, coops have thin rims. Um, you know, old-fashioned glasses have thin rims. And in fact, the thinner the rim, the more I enjoy drinking out of it, as long as the glass itself has enough weight. So I like, you know, like on an old-fashioned, I think it's nice to have, uh, you know, not a preposterously thick bottom, but a fairly thick,
+
+[29:37] bottom and a fairly thin lip. So mason jars have screw lids on the top, and so are always beefy. And they also, I think, tend to kind of obscure kind of the cocktail on the inside. Now, for a theme event, I think they're fine. Or like, you know, for like, uh, if you're going to have a lot of ice in it, in a drink, I think it's kind of okay, as long as you pre-chill it. But I never, I never reach for them. That makes sense. What do you think, Stas? I agree What do you think, Jack? You disagree with me? I can't stand them actually. Wow. I mean, like, if it's a cold lemonade with a lot of ice and a straw maybe, I guess, but I agree with you. It's not a pleasant thing to drink out of. Yeah, you're putting this in a tough spot. They use those here at Roberta's? I wasn't going to make mention of that. Yeah. See, I thought you were just trying to get me in trouble. I wasn't going to mention that. But, I mean, you know, think of like a pint glass versus a mason jar for a beer. I'd rather have a pint every time, yeah. I actually, I like pint glasses. That's like the thickest rim that I like drinking something out of is a pint glass. And I like them because they're sturdy. And when you put a pint glass down, you're not like, I'm afraid I'm
+
+[30:45] going to break this sucker, you know what I'm saying? But you're also not like, why am I, why am I, you know, drinking out
+
+[30:52] of, uh, out of an iPad? You know what I mean? Like, you know, Mason jar is like so thick. It's like the thickness of a freaking iPad. That wasn't meant to be a dig at any one place. I mean, you know, a lot of places do that. I know, you know, and then like the worst of all, I'm really going to get in trouble. Look, here's the thing, like, any one of you out here out there, if you use it, I'm sure you can do something to pull it off, right?
+
+[31:15] I mean, like anything can be pulled off. Like stuff that normally I would hate. How many times does have you heard me say, man, I thought I was going to hate that crap, but it was good. A lot, right? Because I'm opinionated guy and I go, but like, have you seen these people who like put mason jars on stems? Oh man, yeah, I've seen that. Why the hell would you do that? Why would you do that? Here's another thing. Like, let's say you had a drink that you were somehow, I don't know, gonna package and sell to somebody. Then maybe it'd be fun to have a jelly jar or like a, or a mason jar because you could actually like, it would look like a canned thing that you could
+
+[31:48] buy and you could buy it in a store. That might be fun. You know what I mean? I don't know, whatever. You're getting me in trouble, Jack. Jesus. Jesus. All right. Dear Dave at all. I was intrigued by your recipe for pressure cooked eggs, which I found on the cooking issues blog, but I've had some trouble actually making it. When I squeeze the egg whites out in into the ramekin. Some of the yolks float up to the top instead of a neatly divided muffin as you seem to get. I get a spongy mass with pockets of egg white in it. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? Also, should I be putting in some water at the bottom of the pressure cooker or not? Thanks, and keep it the good work. Good work, Alex. Okay, Alex, when I press, there's a couple different pressure cooking tricks I do with eggs. The ones where they turn brown, where it's like a humin egg,
+
+[32:37] which you should all, by the way, anyone who's listening to this, they own on food and cooking, right? Pretty much. Anyone, right? If not, if you don't, I'm not calling you out. You shouldn't like feel embarrassed. You should just go on to your local bookstore or if you don't go to your local bookstore, go to
+
+[32:53] Amazon and purchase Harold McGee's book on food and cooking, right? Yeah. Uh, and uh, in that book, uh, he describes uh, something called a humming
+
+[33:02] egg, and a humming egg, uh, is an egg. So like, you know, I've described this on the show a couple times, but I'll do it again. Let's say you can't, let's say that you observe kosher laws. You're not allowed to cook on the Sabbath, so you have a large oven in a village environment, let's say, and the oven has retained
+
+[33:21] heat. So you put all of your stuff in there the night before, including eggs into the stew, and it cooks for, you know, for a long, long period of time at a relatively, you know, decent temperature and as it cools off the coast. Now, those eggs, so-called how many eggs, they turn brown, not simply from absorbing flavors, but
+
+[33:41] because egg whites are alkaline. And the more alkaline, you make something, the lower temperature you need for myard reactions to take place. So even at the, you know, at boiling water temperatures, you can get my yard reactions in an egg
+
+[33:58] white, if you cook it for a long time. What's a long time? 12, you know, 18, 24, 48 hours. So I've cooked eggs at, you know, at simmer and boiling temperatures for that length of time, and indeed, they do turn brown. And not only do they turn brown, they get interesting kind of brown flavors,
+
+[34:16] biscuity notes and stuff like that. So, you know, back when Nils and I were at the French culinary, you know, one of the things we said, well, why don't we accelerate this with a pressure cooker and
+
+[34:24] you cook the eggs and you put them in a pressure cooker and they come out within an
+
+[34:29] hour. They're like a nut brown, and the egg yolks smell like kind of chicken livers, and the whites are brown. You got to be, uh, but, but, here's the trick. And I think here's the here's the thing. When I do that kind of an egg, I do not crack them before I cook them. I cook them in the shell. Not only do I cook them in the shell, but I cook them at a simmer for a
+
+[34:51] good six, 7 minutes before I put the pressure lid on and take the pressure up to full pressure.
+
+[34:59] And the reason is, is that I want that, if I do it the other way, I get too many ruptured eggs, right? So you want them to set before you, before you take the pressure way up. Now, the other thing is, is that if one of these eggs, the shell does break, it
+
+[35:14] leaches the brown color and the flavor out of the egg into the water because those Mayard products are water soluble. And so you want to make sure you keep the shell on when you do that. You cook it for about 45 I mean, sorry, yeah, 45 minutes to an hour at 2nd ring, which is 15 PSI, and then you let it cool slowly. Don't uncap it all of a sudden because then the eggs will blow up on the inside, right? So you let it cool down, you open it, and then you have your, your ham and eggs, and they're great. Now, the other kinds of eggs that I do when I'm doing in the pressure cooker, I separate them before I do them, right? So I do, um, I can do egg yolks in
+
+[35:55] the, in the, in the pressure cooker and I can do egg whites in the pressure cooker. But I never cook them at the same time together. I separate them. Now, the yolks. I was trying. I can never get the yolks by themselves in the pressure cooker to taste the way that they do in a
+
+[36:11] Hamin pressure cooked egg. They never get that chicken giblet flavor, but the trick that I do have with it when I made those muffin things is that by adding a small amount of baking powder, which
+
+[36:21] is, again, a mistake. I wanted to add soda to it because I wanted to make it more alkaline so that it would have some of those same flavors that it gets when it cooks in the egg itself. But the person I told to go run the test for me, put in powder instead. And the actual yoke turns into that muffin thing, which isn't one of the things they did on the blog. And then I later found out. and that's in modernist cuisine as well. I later found out that you don't even need the pressure cooker. You can just mix egg yolks, sugar for flavor, and baking powder, and then steam it in a regular oven, and it turns into a bun. And the amount of baking powder you add changes the texture from something that's very kind of dense and
+
+[36:56] cakey to something that's very kind of hamburger bunny. And, um, they're, they're good. Like they, you need to get it just right. Like, I like it when there's a little bit of soy and a little bit of sugar in it. But some people really like them and some people really don't like them, those things. And then the whites, Will Brown, you know, you make the brown, but I've never, as far as I know, I got to go back and look at the cooking issues blog, but I don't think I ever cooked them
+
+[37:18] together, and there's no way I could ever get a yolk to float in the middle of it. That just wouldn't work, right? Right. Right. Okay. Does that answer that question? Pressure cooked eggs. We haven't done that in a while, have we? Not that I remember. No. I was like, but by the other hand, I wouldn't remember because I don't care. You know as well as I do. No, but I, no, the thing, I mean, I think I've done it at home a couple times, but we've never done it for, never done
+
+[37:43] it. I haven't done an event in a long time. People haven't asked us to do a lot of cooking events for you, but people I mainly ask for cocktail events now. Didn't we do a cooking event recently or we did a cooking demo recently? With the series all, now that series all is coming out, hopefully people are going to ask for more cooking demos again. What do you like better? cooking demos or the cocktail demos? cocktail demos. Why? Because they're easier? Wow. All right. That's honest anyway. I miss doing the cooking demos. You know what I mean? Gotta keep your chops are hectic. Well, because in cooking demos, I'm usually doing like 18 different recipes and pissing everybody off, adding things at the end with cocktails. a certain amount of work you can add, right? Wow. And that was, I can't believe it. We just got through. We got through all the questions. Well, actually, we got a question in on Twitter. fan of Albert, not Fat Albert, which is one of my kids' favorite shows. Do you like Fat Albert? Really? I can't imagine you watching Fat Albert. Not anymore. But when you were a kid, you did? Who's your favorite character? don't remember. You don't remember the characters? Do you like Mush Mouth? Yeah. Yeah. Mubbish Maboth. Yeah, he was good, right? Yeah. Anyway, the movie, I like some of the actors in the movie, terrible. You seen it? I'm sure, no. Terrible. Terrible. Anyway. So a fan of Albert. not Fat Albert, wanted to know why there's not a problem when you freeze
+
+[38:59] French fries before you cooked them because he's saying, doesn't, when you freeze them, wouldn't you get a lot of retrogradation in the
+
+[39:06] French fry, and that would ruin it, right? Uh, and then say, well, maybe, um, increased water loss for increased crunchiness is why it's why it's good. Well, let me just put some stuff out on the table here, frustrating things. So, 1st of all, Star retrogradation is what happens. So when you cook a starch out, right? It loses its crystalline form and turns into what they call an amorphous form, right? And then, and that's a cooked starch product. Bread, pasta, whatever, right? Right? And that's how it goes from being a crystallizing to a not crystallizing, loses this crystal structure. Retrogradation is what happens when over time, the starch recrystallizes. And that's one of the and also at the same time, gives up water. So recrystallizes and gives up water. And that is the primary mechanism for bread going
+
+[39:57] stale, right? And for all kind of starch things, staling, things going stale that way, like potatoes going stale, starch retrogradation. You hate that, right? Yeah. So, um, starch retrogradation is actually halted by not halted, but drastically slowed by freezing. However, so you're not retrograding when you're at a tremendous rate when you're in the freezer. Here's the trick. As you starch retrogradation is fastest, right? at refrigerator temperatures. That's why if anyone ever puts bread in the fridge. You should... I mean, I wouldn't smack them hard. Don't hurt them, but make them understand that, you know, that bread in the fridge is a horrible idea. Do you ever put bread in the fridge, does? Are you just saying that because you don't want me to get angry? No, I have friends that do it, though. What do you do to them? Nothing. Nothing? They do a lot of things bad, but I don't Like what? Give me some more. They don't take the bones out of fish. They shop for food at Walmart, all kinds of stuff. Wow. You need some new friends. Man, I like most of your friends, but like, why don't you yell at them? for other reasons because I don't like being that person that brings their job into their friendship.
+
+[41:08] It's not job that's like life. They would tell me about like classical music or fashion or all the things that they do. We just leave it up. We leave our music. I don't know. I don't know. at least you have some people comment on this. Like, if someone does something that is like a straight up destructor of quality that's easily
+
+[41:24] solved. Like if someone, if someone throws tomatoes in the fridge, right? Fresh tomatoes in the fridge, you're not like, hey, it doesn't really, you wouldn't, here's
+
+[41:33] how, if they're cooking now, or if they've already brought you the tomato that they've refrigerated, there's not much you can
+
+[41:38] say, because you don't want to insult them, right? But if, like, you see the tomato in the fridge and they're not going to cook it that night anyway. You take it and be like, you know what? You're, you know, you spend good money on this tomato and you're kind of like hosing it by putting it in the fridge. Just thought you might want to know. You know what I mean? No, you wouldn't do that? I wouldn't do it. But you're making them better. You're not hurting their feelings. You're not being a jackass. Jack, what do you think about this? Is it okay? He left. Is it okay to help someone out? It's not okay to help someone out. You're like, hey, your bread will keep longer if you take it out of the fridge. I had that happen last night. The girl brought the bread out of the fridge. Oh, Jesus, how bad was it? She toasted it. Well, that's the good news. So if you have bread that's staled, you can toast it. And as it warms, that it will get better again, but then as soon as it's cold, it's death.
+
+[42:27] It's a nightmare. It's only good then for breadcrumbs or for rusks. Do you like the word rusk? I'm surprised. I like the very Rusk too. Anyway, so um, Star Trek for gradation happens most rapidly uh, at fridge temperatures and slightly below fridge temperatures, but uh, not at freezer temperatures, right? So freeze freezer temperature is going to be somewhere around -20 Celsius, around -4 Fahrenheit. At those places, it's pretty slowed. But the freezing rate is incredibly important. So if it takes you a 1000000000 years to freeze something, right? Then, then you get a lot of retrogradation during the freezing process. You also get a lot of retrogradation during the thawing process, which is
+
+[43:11] why, if you're going to make French fries that are frozen, right, you want to freeze them relatively quickly,
+
+[43:16] right? And by not super quickly, if you freeze liquid nitrogen quickly, you're not going to get the dehydration phenomena. So one of the reasons, and this, you allude to this in your question, that French fries, when they're frozen, are crunchy, is because freezing is a cellular can be looked at as a cellular dehydration
+
+[43:31] process, because the ice crystals aren't forming on the inside, typically, of the cells of the plants or meats that you're
+
+[43:39] freezing. The water is extracted from the cells and frozen extracellularly. vast majority of it, unless you freeze with liquid nitrogen super quickly, and you can
+
+[43:45] get like, you know, a very quick nucleation of crystals inside the cell. That typically doesn't happen. So, um, what happening is, is that the water is getting squeezed
+
+[43:55] out, and then when you fry it, right, that water is more easily uh, liberated from the
+
+[44:00] French fry, hence crunchier fry. However, you're also getting rid of a lot so you can get a kind of what we call a hollow inside. Do you like the Halloween? You don't like french fries, whatever. I'm not going to talk to you, but like a hollow inside or a hollow core, which I don't really like.
+
+[44:13] I don't really like hollow core fries. I like I like the my goal is to have the inside of the fry be like a mashed potato and the outside of the fry be
+
+[44:20] crunchy but not hard. That's what I'm looking for. So, um, freezing a fry has similar effects to drying the fry before you do your initial, uh, so you blanch in boiling water or
+
+[44:33] simmering water, you know, boiling water, salted, and then you typically dry it and then 1st fry 2nd fry.
+
+[44:39] Freezing has a similar effect to drying. However, the uh, freezing uh, does uh, kind of some more all the way through the fry instead of like drying, which is more of a surface phenomenon.
+
+[44:50] That makes sense? Anyways, point being that if you are going to, some, I'm, no, I'm jumping all over the map here, but from a bread standpoint, the general rule of thumb is that every freeze cycle and thaw cycle that you put it through is equal
+
+[45:07] to, assuming you do it relatively quickly, and bread freezes relatively quickly because there's not that much water in it, right? So it does freeze relatively quickly. It just doesn't have that high the thermal mass, right? French fries have a higher thermal mass because they have more residual water in them before the 2nd fry. Make sense? Anyways. So, uh, the rule of thumb that I've read is that every free sauce cycle that you put it through is like an entire day of staling. So if you're gonna freeze bread, freeze it right now. Like, as soon as you say, as soon as you bring the bread home and you're like, damn, I'm not
+
+[45:38] going to use this thing in time, freeze it right now because the freeze thaw cycle just by itself is like eating it the next
+
+[45:44] day, right? Does that make sense? So, uh, and this is why, and you're losing on both sides on both the thawing side and the freezing side. You're losing as the bread is spending time in that hyper
+
+[45:55] retrogradation retrograding stage of just below fridge temp to just above fringe temp. The rule of thumb that I read is about -8 to about +8
+
+[46:05] Fahrenheit Celsius in that region, right? So, uh, you want to minimize the amount of time that your uh, products stay in that zone, which is why the cardinal rule with
+
+[46:16] French fries done this way is fry from frozen, right? fry those suckers from frozen and don't go through repeated free saw cycles. If you go through repeated freestaw cycles, you're an enemy of quality. And that's all we got this week. If you live here in New York, stay safe. Don't slip on the way home, cooking issues.
+
+[46:45] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit wholefoodsmarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you late, but live on, what is it? Tuesday? I can't read Tuesday. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, calling your questions two. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Got Joe running the show in the engineering booth today. How you doing? I'm doing great. How's it going, Dave? Yeah, all right. All right. Got Stas the Hammer Lopez, as usual, trying to find some extra questions on the Twitter. Actually using her phone and computer for radio related things today. Is that true? As opposed to business related, yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm looking on your Twitter? Well, we're trying to find. I think it was, you know, our friend and also museum supporter. I always pronounce it gene, though. It's John Doe, like John Doe, but gene, like dough and dough, like bread. Anyway, I think he would, I think he made the egg thing for the circulator because someone said wanted me to comment on it. But we got to find it. I got to find the pictures that were sent. It's Shondo's thing. Anyway, so before you do that stuff, when we talk about some of the fun things we did last week, we
+
+[1:38] did on Friday, we did an event. Turns out that was a fundraiser for the drawing center, right? Yeah. And it was Fran, Adria from El Bully, the bully, was having a show of his sketchbooks and we had to make cocktails for it. But apparently we'll talk about that in a minute because we have a caller collar, you're on the air. Hi, this is Kellen from Sweden. Wow. I am calling because I've been making tofu. And after making tofu for a while, I wanted to make some soy milk, but it tastes awful. It tastes really beanie and gross. Right. Have you had soy milk that you like before by itself? Yeah, definitely. I'm a vegan, so I eat a lot of sod milk and a lot of it is shit, but some of it's all right. So your question then, presumably, is how to get rid of the beaniness. correct. Well, are you making a thin, like how many, uh, sorry to go, uh, American units on you, but like
+
+[2:36] roughly like how many, um, cups of, uh, soy or how
+
+[2:41] many, uh, what's your ratio of water to soybean? Oh, I think it's about one to like five, like
+
+[2:50] one cup of beans to 5 cups of water or something like that? One cup dry to five? Uh, soaked. Soaked? Okay. So, it's kind of medium, right? It's not too thick. It's not too thin. I'm wondering, I'm wondering whether or not you should maybe go thinner to get rid of, and you're cooking the heck out of it, right? You're straining it and then cooking the heck out of it, yeah? Correct. I even tried like shocking it. That was a suggestion someone's had on the internet, was to shock the beans and then cook them after that, but it didn't seem to make a
+
+[3:19] difference. What do you mean, shock, like shock, like after you, uh, they wanted,
+
+[3:24] they, they were supposedly, supposedly the beanie taste is in the skins somewhere, so you were supposed to, uh, shock them in boiling
+
+[3:31] water and then, uh, cook them again after that, which didn't really make any sense to me, but I gave it a try anyway.
+
+[3:36] And it didn't work. No. And you're not using the soaking water, right? No, correct. Yeah. Uh, shoot. And they're soaked all the way through presumably. Yeah. I wonder, so the theory on the internet is that the beanie taste is water
+
+[3:54] soluble and can be removed from the hull area. Yeah, I read something about people actually showing Swabians mechanically somehow, but that's not really possible at home. Yeah, no. I mean, like, obviously, when you're doing it, you know, the outsides will slip off from time to time, but it's not something that you could do in any sort of repeatable way. It's interesting because I only ever make tofu. I've never tried to make just a milk for the milkstake. I mean, I've made Yuba and I've made, you know, various kinds of tofu, but I've
+
+[4:27] never tried to focus on just the milk by itself. I'm wondering, you know how like, um, one of the interesting things about, um, Soy is that, you know, everyone says that, you know, it's hard to oversoak it.
+
+[4:41] And then some people say, well, you can oversoak it, but nobody really says what oversoaking means. My theory is, is that if you've ever let the soybean soak for a long time, that they start to ferment and it's kind of the ferment that they're not liking and not any actual sort of over soaking of the bean. I'm wondering if there is something water soluble that's extractable from in a beanie way, whether or not multiple
+
+[5:04] soaks, uh, where the change of water might help. Uh, or, or, um, see, I don't think you'd be wise to do like a pre-boil of it before you grind because I don't know
+
+[5:15] that that'll probably affect yield, wouldn't you think so? I have no clue. Yeah. This is something I'm sure that people have worried about quite extensively because people who buy the stuff commercially probably don't want the beanie taste. And I know that other, um, you know, other foods that have bad beanie taste to them, like guar, for instance, um, you know, commercially, they extract the beanie taste from them, charge a premium, but because they don't want
+
+[5:42] the the beanie, the beanie taste. So I'm going to have to do some research because I've never tried to reduce the beaniness of soy, but it's a huge problem because
+
+[5:52] remember people dope all kinds of products with soy all the time and the main gripe that
+
+[5:58] they you have with it is the beanie flavor. For instance, and... Yeah, even yeah, go ahead. Even the best ones are kind of beanie. Yeah. Well, and so, like, for instance, you know, when you try to, like, one of the reasons to use soy in in snack foods is to increase kind of crunchiness without having to dope with gluten,
+
+[6:15] right? Or to add the protein fraction and things of that. But beating this is a constant problem. And the bean is the higher temperature that you put something to, the more prevalent that beanie flavor is. You know what I mean? Like, really, like, in terms of, uh, in terms of like high, high, high pressure and temperature uh, snack foods, for instance. So, um, So this is something that people worry about quite a bit, but I haven't tried to address it, but I've, you know, I've had a bunch of tofu questions
+
+[6:42] recently, and I've started, you know, after a couple year hiatus, you know, making tofu on a regular basis again at home.
+
+[6:49] So, you know, over the next, you know, couple of weeks, I'm sure I'll be making a couple of batches of soy milk and I feel really dumb. I have not even tasted the soy milk. I just don't even taste it. I look at it to see what it's like, and then I hit it with the coagulant. So I'll look into it and I'll see if I can figure out anything and then, you know, I'll report back on the show. And if anyone out there listening has any ideas, please tweet it in and then we'll have some sort of Twitter exchange about it. Alrighty? Sorry, I couldn't be more direct help. No, that's great. Thank you. All right, cool. We'll work on that. That an interesting problem. you like tofu stars or is that one of the things you actually like it? Wow, surprisingly. Surprisingly, Stas comes out on the right side of the of the taste thing this time. Anyways. So, uh, before we go into the uh, questions that we have, um, We're going to have another caller. All right. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, love the show. I found podcast a little while ago. and I can't stop listening to it. Oh, thanks. I've got a question for you about scuby brisket. It's a 2nd cup brisket. Um, and, you know, the more research you do online, the fewer answers you
+
+[8:01] find and the more questions you have. So, um, what I wanted to do
+
+[8:06] is I've got this stovetop smoker. I wanted to throw it in there for about 15 minutes, get some smoke on it. Then, um, you know, vac it up and put it in
+
+[8:17] for, say, 72 hours, let it go. Right. My problem though is, um, you know, with
+
+[8:24] a 2nd cup recipe, a lot of college there. So, I'm concerned that if I do it at a low temperature, say 140,
+
+[8:32] uh, Fahrenheit, then I'm going to be, you know, it's not going to melt, I'm going to be left with all that collagen in
+
+[8:39] there. Right. So have you done a, you've done a lot of low, long-term, low temperature cooking already or no? I wouldn't say a lot. I got myself a nova sous vide cooker a couple months ago. Right. And I should say I love it. I haven't used that one. So you like it? Yeah I think it's great. Nice. All right. And it's cheap. 200 bucks. 200 bucks can't beat that. Yeah. Okay, but have you done a lot of long, long time low temp work? Like have you done, like, for instance, like short ribs or any of those things? I did. I did short ribs, they were fantastic. What time temperature did you use for the short ribs? The short ribs I did, I think, let's say, 137, I think I did. So that's like 58 Celsius or something like that? Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I actually did the 2 bags. I did one with nothing in it and one I poured some barbecue sauce in, and I actually preferred the one with the barbecue sauce. Yeah, you need to remember when you're doing long cooks like that, though, with sauce. barbecue sauce is quite thick as it is, but one of the mistakes people make when they're bagging this stuff is
+
+[9:43] they put a sauce in that has a too high of a water content. And then when the meat gives up its liquid as it cooks in the bag, as you notice, the other, you know, the other one gave up, you know, its
+
+[9:54] liquid. Like it ends up having so much liquid in the bag that it tastes more poached, you know, and so when we did a lot of short ribs with more of a French sauce on it at the French
+
+[10:02] culinary. Uh, you know, like the comparison we always made is it stops tasting like a braise and more like a pas
+
+[10:08] de feu. You know what I mean? So it's, yeah, that's something to look out for. But so you're cooking like 58 for about how long? I did almost 72 hours. Okay. So here's the, here's the, here's how it works with low temperature. And for brisket specifically, specifically for smoked and barbecue style briskets, you're
+
+[10:26] going to want to look at modernist cuisine and, you know, Chris Young because he's a bit of a barbecue fanatic. And so he spent a lot of time worrying about kind of smoking and temperatures, but in general, to answer your
+
+[10:39] question. Um, the collagen will never render out. The collagen will get soft and it will get everything will get moist, but neither the fat nor the collagen will render.
+
+[10:50] So, uh, if you look into like one of the benefits of a low temperature, um,
+
+[10:55] a low temperature, uh, meat cooked for a long term like this is that as opposed to a braise, uh, it has very high
+
+[11:04] slice ability, right? But very little collagen rendering. Now, the difference is in a traditional, like, Texas style barbecue, you know, where it's cooked for a long brisket where it's cooked for a long period of time, right? You do get some of that you get that some of that collaging rendering, but you also still have slicability, right? Because it's a different kind of cooking than a braise where everything gets busted up, right? In a low temperature cooking, The temperatures are never high enough for the collagen to melt out of its out of its location once it converts to gelatin. So you end up having very soft, and, you know, you still have an unctuous mouth feel, but it hasn't totally, you know, imbued the entire piece of meat with that melted collagen.
+
+[11:41] Now, the reason you don't need that when you're doing low temperature work is that you've never overcooked the protein to the point where it requires a lot of extra liquid
+
+[11:52] for it to be palatable again, right? So in a traditional long cook, you go from a period of kind of dry, tough meat, all of a sudden it gets good again, right? And, you know, it's one of those things you learn when you're doing long temperature, uh, you know, like traditional braises or or, or, you know, barbecue things like that. And low temperature cooking never works that way because the trick is, is that you never take that 1st step of overcooking the protein. And then you're just waiting for a long time for the college into breakdown into gelatin, but still it never renders out. The one thing that I will say that bothers people is the fat that never renders out. So, like, fat caps and stuff, I tend to trim more in, uh, when I'm doing low temp meets than I do, uh, when, um, you know, when I'm doing traditional, where I don't have to worry about
+
+[12:38] it, because it's going to render out and go into the sauce anyway. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. So the collagen isn't going to have a, like, I've never eaten, you know, unrendered colleges. Um, it's not going to have like a bad taste, their mouth feel. No, it's going to be great. No, the, the, like, the only thing it's not going to break down are, you know, our actual, you know, pieces of grizzle,
+
+[13:00] like, you know, elastic and that kind of stuff won't break down, but collagen will break down just
+
+[13:04] fine. It just won't melt out of its place. So you'll still see, you'll still see it, but it will be soft, you know? Um, one thing, here's another thing when you're taking into account, uh, how how things go, is that, uh, and I have a lot more experience with long cooks of short
+
+[13:22] ribs, because I have to, I used to have to do it incessantly when I was teaching, right? And so what you notice is, is that you choose your, you choose how you want the meat to be done, right? And then you have to choose the time based on the texture that you want. And so, um, what happens is, is that, um, because you're not overcooking it, uh, with temperature wise, it never is dry.
+
+[13:46] And so what happens is it just goes from being tough to progressively more tender and eventually to being mushy. Okay? And because the temperatures that you're cooking with are so low,
+
+[13:59] um, a couple of degrees makes a big difference in how long you need to cook something to get a
+
+[14:05] particular, um, texture. So for instance, if you cook a short rib, uh, at 57 degrees, uh, uh, sorry, 57 degrees Celsius, which is roughly 135 uh, degrees Fahrenheit, and you cook that for 24 hours, like pretty much on the on the nose,
+
+[14:24] the, that will have the texture of skirt steak. Okay? And I like that. People don't expect it in a short rib, so people usually don't prefer it. But I know a couple restaurants. I think Roberta's, I think, you know, Carlo used to use a similar number as that and sell it almost like it's a steak. It eats like a steak. Now, if you're doing that way, you don't want any salt or anything on it because it's going to affect the texture and make the texture more cured, right? If you cook that same one for 48 to 56 hours, then you start being in
+
+[14:54] the traditional softness of a short rib, right? And then if you cook that for 72 hours, in my, in my feeling, it's a little too soft. And what happens when fun something gets too
+
+[15:03] soft, in my, in my opinion, is when you bite in it, the fibers break up too easily and give up their juice kind of too easily.
+
+[15:10] It loses too much of its structure. Now, if you were to do Michelle Richard and, and, uh, uh, and uh, Bruno
+
+[15:18] Gouseau, when they were doing some of their, like, early kind of, you know, virtuoso, this is what low temperature stuff can do, they were doing short ribs down
+
+[15:25] at, like, 54.4 degrees Celsius, right? Which is, you know, rare, rare. And there, they needed they needed a full 72 just to get it to normal short rib range,
+
+[15:37] right? Now if you go all the way up to 60. And I think, and we've done a lot of tests of, you know, 57 is kind of an interesting, which is
+
+[15:44] 135. is interesting in that kind of meat because people aren't used to having it that rare. It's like in a meat rare state. Uh, but, uh, it's still, you know, not so rare that people are like, some old timers, if you give them rare, uh, a rare brisket, like
+
+[15:59] that or a rare short rib, they don't understand it. They're like, what are you doing to me? Are you poisoning me? What going on? You know what I mean? But I think most people end up preferring closer to 60, which is 140, which is, you know, the kind of the other numbers that you've been dealing with. So I think that's a good like 140. And I think at at 140, you probably don't need to go more than like 48. So I would test one at like 48 hours, and I think a prelim smoke isn't going to hurt anything from a taste standpoint, but I, you know, I wouldn't necessarily expect the awesome smoke ring that you would get out of a traditional thing, although you can have it happen
+
+[16:35] with, I used to get it by accident sometimes when I, you know, used curing salts and for like exactly the wrong amount of
+
+[16:42] time, I would get it just right, but I've never been the master of the, of the smoke ring. But Chris Young has detailed this stuff extensively. And I'm sure if you go to chefsteps.com, chefsteps.com. I'm sure that they will, you know, have, like, if they don't have a specific protocol for you,
+
+[17:01] they'll they'll provide one. Right. Yeah, I love Chef Step. And you actually touched on one follow-up item I wanted to ask about, which
+
+[17:07] was, uh, salting before putting it in. Right. Um, I had read somewhere, someone suggested salting, uh, put some salt and cracked, uh, pepper on it for, I put
+
+[17:19] in the fridge for about 2 hours and then get started. Um, I've read your rundown on sulping steaks before cooking
+
+[17:26] sous vide. Right. Um, but I wasn't sure how that would apply to say, uh, a brisket. Well, it all depends on what you want. So you just have to, you have to pay attention. So if you, like, the results are pretty clear that if you salt meat before you cook
+
+[17:42] it. And this actually ties into a question I have to answer later today about kosher meats. If you salt meat for... Oh, yeah? All right. Well, so there's a, you know, so like, you know, you'll hopefully hear later on. I have a question on, uh, you know, this, the person says, I think that kosher meats, uh, beef specifically, you know, uh, isn't as
+
+[18:05] good or I hear it's not as good. He can't tell because he only eats kosher, so he can't do side-wise, right? That's funny, same with me. Yeah, so, uh, well, well, I might as well, I'll get into it now and I'll address anything I miss later. So, um, the issue is if you saw it beforehand, it changes the texture of the meat.
+
+[18:23] So traditional, you know, steak texture is looser than, I don't know, any better way to say it, but it's looser than not necessarily more tender, just looser than meat that's been salted,
+
+[18:37] right? And, you know, if you, and you could tell the difference even between something that is salted, you know, and meant to be
+
+[18:44] sitting around for a while versus something that's even fresh salted when you're doing koshering on it,
+
+[18:49] right? Now, I've read, and that's just, and this is why, you know, for, you know, even, you know, folks that were non, you know, kosher, right? Uh, back in the day, but you know, before, you know, we all forget, everyone brines now, but I'm pretty sure that, you know, the people who were the, the, the folks that made brining what it is today in the community in, in, um, poultry
+
+[19:10] is uh, Cooks Illustrated. So whether you love them or whether you hate them, I mean, I know that's how I got into
+
+[19:15] brining. And I think most of us, you know, you know, decades ago, that's how they got into brining in the early days of Cooks
+
+[19:21] Illustrated in the 90s, early 90s, right? And, you know, one of the observations everyone used to make was that, hey, look
+
+[19:28] it, uh, kosher, uh, kosher chicken is typically better than, um, better than a regular chicken when you're cooking it, you know, in a traditional
+
+[19:38] fashion. And the reason is, is because it's been salted, right? I mean, that, I mean, that's the, that is the reason. And so, you know, I think a lot of the, a lot of the reason, except for a lot of times
+
+[19:50] there's smaller producers and you can get a higher quality out of it, a lot of the reason to specifically look for a kosher
+
+[19:54] bird, once you start brining, you know, is not there. Now, meat, beef is not the, it's not the same. So beef because you're not cooking into those higher temperatures. You don't really necessarily need the protection that the salting gives you from drying out
+
+[20:11] the meat when you're cooking it. Because, you know, fundamentally, the reason to brine, uh, uh, poultry, when you're doing it is one for flavor,
+
+[20:19] right? I mean, if it's not for, if it's not to get rid of the, right, for you, one of the primary reasons is to get rid of the blood so that you can, you know, comply with the kosher laws. But, you know, the other reasons are to season the meat and to have the
+
+[20:32] salt, alter the confirmation to the protein such that they hold onto their water, better and respond better to overcooking without drying out. Now, in a steak that's going to be cooked rare, that's not an issue because
+
+[20:45] you're cooking it rare, you're not going to overcook the meat. And so you don't want the salt in there because the altered
+
+[20:55] proteins aren't don't taste the same. They don't have the same texture as an unsalted piece of rare steak does. They're not bad. They're just different. So, you know, one of the things that I was wondering is, is that I know it's allowed. I went on kind of the, you know, the hardest core group that I could find was, you know, the
+
+[21:17] Shabbat Lobovichers. And I looked at their koshering thing and apparently you can get, um, you know, properly slaughtered meat that has not yet been salted and salted yourself at home.
+
+[21:29] And if you look at the numbers, right? So to properly kosher, a steak, you're going to need to soak it for, I think it's like a half hour. I have the numbers in the iPad, but, you know, it's gone to sleep right now. It's like half hour or an hour or something like that in water. And that's going to be fine. That's not going to do too much damage to it. It'll take on some water, but that's not a big deal from a textual standpoint, right? And then you rinse off anything, you know, any clots or anything that are on the outside. And now you salt it for a half hour. right? Uh, and and that's salting for a half hour, and then you're required, uh, you know, a triple rinse after that. My feeling is, if you have a good, thick steak, and you do that, that, and you cook it right away, that the meat is going to have a very similar texture to an unkosured piece of
+
+[22:21] meat from a protein standpoint texture. So if you know, if you can get away with that, if you could swing that to do this, then I would do a
+
+[22:29] side by side on that versus one that had the salting done at the butcher shop. Because from my reading, apparently both are allowed, and that will allow you to have kind of a side by side on what the, you know, what the difference would be between something
+
+[22:42] that been salted a long time before and something that hadn't. Now, the other thing is, depends on how thorough their rinsing of the salt off is as well,
+
+[22:48] you know, or how thick the piece of meat is. I mean, I don't know what the laws are on how thick a piece of meat you're allowed to kosher that way with a simple half hour salting. But I know this. If you salt a steak and you cook it in a bath for an
+
+[23:05] hour, it still tastes like a normal steak. If you salt it and you cook it for an hour and a
+
+[23:11] half , you know, it still tastes like a normal steak. Two hours, 3 hours, then you start having more of the texture of a cured
+
+[23:19] steak even when it's rare. Now, luckily for you, on a brisket, you know, you're cooking it above that rare temperature
+
+[23:26] anyway, and so you're not going to have those same issues. Does that make sense? Yeah, so you're saying that it shouldn't really matter. Not at those temperatures. My feeling is, is that once you're above, like 135 or thereabouts, like the difference between the salted and the unsalted is not going to make that much, not going to make as much of a
+
+[23:51] difference. And if I'm starting with a kosher piece of meat anyway than there isn't really any sense to salting at home again. Well, I don't know. I mean, the question is like, you know, if you cook it and I mean, again, I don't know how much of the salt is in it and then stays in it after the triple
+
+[24:08] rinse, because remember, you're triple rinsing it after you salt it. It's to get the surface salt off, but I don't know how much is still in the
+
+[24:14] meat because it's only been sitting a half hour. So a lot's going to depend on how thick the meat is. Uh, you know, uh, assaulting beforehand might still make a big difference because you remember when
+
+[24:24] you're when you're salting a steak. to sear it. Typically, you're putting a boat ton of salt on it. You know what I mean? You grind a lot of pepper on it and you put a good salting on the outside. And now that sucker's sitting in a bag at high temperature for a long time. And so you're getting a lot more salt penetration than you would out of, let's
+
+[24:44] say, a, you know, out of a piece of meat that's being kosher for the minimum half an hour salt time on each side. Does that make sense? So it might still be an issue. I've never done a side by side, for instance, on going to a
+
+[24:56] coach or butcher shop and ordering 2 different thicknesses of the same cut that have both been salted after
+
+[25:04] their cut to see whether or not there's a big difference in texture between those low temperature cooked.
+
+[25:08] That'd be an interesting test to run, you know? I just don't know. Right. Um, All right. Well, um, I'll put in a plug, if you want to find some kosher meat, my
+
+[25:21] buddy, uh, runs this company, grow and behold, in Brooklyn, uh, where you can get some good kosher meat. It's called grow and behold. Yeah. All right. Well, check it out. They do a good job? Yeah I think so. All right. And just before I go, maybe if you have any modernist Super Bowl ideas for next week. Ooh, that's more of a star thing. I was going to ask her what she's doing for the Super Bowl. You gonna see us awesome stuff? Are you having the party at your house or someone else's house? Oh, Phil's house. Nastasia's friends hate food. Is that true or false? It's true. They love food. just don't care. Phil Phil Bravo, who I'm allowed to make fun of because he was supposed to come on the show and like do some announcing for us and never did. Like, uh, you know, he's his his like signature dish is bone
+
+[26:03] in overcooked tilapia. So, like, I doubt they're going to have any modernist stuff at the nostalgia stuff for, you know, for Super Bowl. I don't even know if, I mean, I'm sure I'll have it on because I have a TV this year for the 1st time in a long time. But, you know, like if I was going to do, uh, I mean, my, here's the other issue. My wife doesn't really like wings. I know this sounds bad, but my wife doesn't like wings because she doesn't like the bones. I like nachos a lot. Maybe I'll make maybe I'll make a boatload of nachos, in which case I'll just be using the sears all to do a, to do a, you know, a cheese toast on that. I got to think about it. We didn't really do any good, a good job of thinking of Super Bowl stuff for the program, Dibby Styles. Because you're the only one that cares, but you don't care about coming up with stuff for the show. I did the tailgate. Oh, yeah, stars, stars, well, what did you do with the tailgate? We use it for everything. We grilled sausages. We boiled beans by holding it under the pot. We made s'mores. You did the broad stuff, right? Yeah, so they did the sausage. They did like the classic, like the 140 cookoff of the sausage, and then sear off with the with the
+
+[27:04] sears all. By the way, like, it's not necessarily like, it's not really modernist, but the pre-cook of a sausage in, you know, whatever kind of sausage you want, your case beef, obviously, or lamb, lamb sauce is delicious.
+
+[27:16] You know, pre-cooking it at 60, 140, and then doing like a flash finish on the outside. It's such a technically superior way to cook a sausage. that it surprises me that you would ever cook a sausage a different way unless, you know, you need to cook one right
+
+[27:33] now and you didn't want to bust out a circuit. If you had a circulator, I wouldn't see any reason to cook a sausage any different way. You can bring it up to temp at 60? doesn't matter how long. I let it ride for a while. I usually put it. I usually put the, the, the sausages in uh, ziplocs
+
+[27:49] with uh, with a little bit of uh, oil and uh, I let them ride for uh, a while, a couple hours usually at
+
+[27:57] 60. And here's the reason is that in a sausage, you're using the grinder to break up typically tough pieces of
+
+[28:06] meat and the tenderization is a mechanical one, right? Grinding. And then you have fat to lubricate the meat because you're going to overcook the meat, right? So you know you're going to overcook the meat and you know that it's tough. So you have a lot of fat and you grind the hell out of it, you put it into a casing sausage. Now, if you, uh, if you say, okay, look, I'm going to go low tip, so I'm not going to overcook the meat, right? That's one benefit right there, but also, remember, each individual grain in the sausage is still from a tougher piece of meat,
+
+[28:36] right? So if you cook it for longer than you normally would, it's going to tenderize. Now you don't need to cook it for, you know, you know, a zillion years. But, you know, I let them just sit there at, at, you know, 140 at 60 for a long time until they're ready to go. And then I let them cool down a little bit and then I do a quick sear off and people love those sausages. They really do. Cool. Got to give it a try. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't done any low temperature wings because that would be a home thing and like I said, my wife doesn't love it. But like, I guarantee you could do a low, like here, like a low temperature wing. here's the problem with a low temperature wing, I got to say, is that when you, um, when you're doing, um, bone and chicken, low temp, uh, you tend to never lose, uh,
+
+[29:20] uh, uh, that little bit of a, uh, there's a little bit of a bloodline on
+
+[29:24] the uh, on the bone that's very hard to get rid of. So you get this persistent pinking. And if you do it in a vacuum bag, it gets even worse because sucking the vacuum on the chicken bones, pull some of the
+
+[29:36] the pink stuff from the interior of the bone almost, at least that's what I think, to the outside of the meat. And it just, those colors never go away when you're doing low temperature cooking.
+
+[29:45] And that's why, like, pretty much 100% of the chicken that I do low temperature, I bone it out
+
+[29:51] first. And so it's not really good for for wings, you know? I actually, David Supreme Blog has a recipe for low temperature chicken wings that I
+
+[30:02] tried and I was not terribly impressed. Yeah, do you remember what their specs were? I don't. This was a few months ago. Yeah, I mean, like, I do low temperature chicken all the time, and I think a lot of the problem with low temperature chicken. Well, here's what I do. I typically cook the, I cook the dark meat, boned out. I salt it, and then I cook it in, uh, in salted milk for about 45 minutes at uh, 66 uh, or 665, depending on how I
+
+[30:32] feel, and I cook the breast meat at around 64.5 to 65 for the same amount of time. And then I pull it out of the bag, flash it, flash it dry by letting it air out when it's
+
+[30:45] hot. Then I do my breading and I fry them. And the advantage of doing low temperature stuff that way at like a party, let's say, for instance, with Super Bowls, if you have other fried stuff, like rings or fries, that you can fry everything at the same high
+
+[31:01] temperature because you don't need to worry about cooking the chicken. It's already cooked, whereas if you're doing like a large fried item like a fried chicken, you would normally have to drastically reduce the temperature of the fry
+
+[31:12] oil or you would never get it cooked all the way through before you burnt the outside. So the pre-cook on that, I do more from a, um, more from a workflow, um, benefit because if you want to do it without doing the traditional
+
+[31:26] pre, you know, step, you have to do tenders. That why chicken tenders are such a good idea from a workflow standpoint. Uh, not the, and also it's using that crappy piece of meat, but you know what I'm saying? It's like making it small enough so it can cook all the way through. Whereas if you have it pre-cooked, you don't need to worry about it. Right. All right, very cool. Thank you. All right. Well, have a good Super Bowl. Thank you All right, bye. And so just a shout out to the question who, the person who wrote in the original question, Judah
+
+[31:53] Malka wrote in and said, we answered it mostly. My question for you today is regarding kosher meat, which you may or may not have experience working with. I've heard numerous times from people who've tried both at the quality of kosher steaks. They have eaten at kosher restaurants is significantly worse than what is offered at your average non-kosher steakhouse. The discrepancy is blamed on the koshering process that meat goes through post-slaughter. Being that I can't do a side by side, uh, because I only eat kosher. I wonder if you explained from a theoretical standpoint why this may be the case. I think it has more to do with the actual quality of the meat that's being served rather than the
+
+[32:22] koshering process, but I could very well be wrong. My understanding is that meat is labeled kosher, does not have to have the USDA grading as being prime or choice. For my own kosher shopping experiences, I find it very difficult to find the same consistently good looking cuts, similar to what I
+
+[32:36] noticed even in your average grocery butcher's case. And I wonder if this is where the difference lies. Um, so anyway, uh, I don't know. So that could also be an issue that you don't have access to the high, I have a really kind of weird, you want to hear a weird one? We have 9 minutes. 9 minutes. You want to hear a weird one? So, okay, so a family member of mine. Uh, you know, or it used to be a butcher. And they were butchers for generations, right? About the kosher? No, about the... So by the way, you don't know what story I'm going to tell. So hush it. So anyway, so he was a butcher in Boston for many years and their specialty was lamb. And one of the things that they used to do, uh, was they
+
+[33:15] would, um, they would supply the kosher market, right? Because there weren't that many people who were doing their own landslaughtering because they would go, you know, up north of Boston and get their own
+
+[33:26] lambs and then they would, you know, they would do the slaughtering. And they would hire, they'd have, you know, they'd have the, you know, the rabbi there who would do the inspection on the carcasses to make sure that they,
+
+[33:37] you know, were kosher, that there was no blemishes, there's no problems. Now, here's the problem. They paid the rabbi a specific amount of money to
+
+[33:48] check the lamb. Now, the rabbi got paid whether or not the animal passed or not, right? So whether or not they got the kosher stamp on the sucker, they had to pay whatever the whatever the inspection charge was. So here's how they used to get around it. There's like, you know, like old school, like Boston thievery kind of stuff. They would they looked for a long time on what the rabbi would do. And one of the things he would do is he would stick his hand inside of the lamb and check to make sure that the lining, the
+
+[34:19] plura, where the lungs were, was not attached. It was free all the way around. And that was, you know, the main check they would do to make sure that the animal wasn't sick or had a problem. So what these guys used to do is they would shove a knife into a small
+
+[34:34] incision like up north of where the rabbi would check and they would shove their fingers in and separate the plura from
+
+[34:43] the, from the, you know, the thing. So it looked clean. And then when they made that, when, you know, when the rabbi came to make the check and check, then he would give it a kosher, whether it was kosher or not. Can you believe that? It's a crazy story. Here's another thing. I didn't realize is that you can kosher something with fire as well by broiling it. And in fact, according to, uh, you know, the LeBoviture site I went on, that's really the only way to do liver because you can't apparently salt the blood out of
+
+[35:09] liver. But I had no idea that, like, real kosher, like, chicken livers had been broiled till they were half done before they were then cooked again.
+
+[35:17] Did you know that? I did not know that. Did not know. Anyway, that was from Judah Malka. And so hopefully that answered that question. Okay. Joshua writes in about, oh, before we get to that question, we got a thing in from Aaron about pedal
+
+[35:34] valves, and he said, your listeners might like to look up pedalvalve.com. And because as everyone who has heard me say it knows, I love foot pedals on a sink, but it's kind of difficult to hook up
+
+[35:46] pedals the way I have them. So Aaron points this to pedalvalve.com, which, uh, you know, has residential foot pedals that you can install into, they
+
+[35:54] say, into any regular sink. Here's the issue, though. I looked at that website and that'll work. But for what they want to do, you could get almost any mixing pedal valve, for instance, TNS
+
+[36:05] brass, and hook it up the way that they want to, although they might they give you the adapters and whatnot. The issue on that website, is that those foot pedals, you are required to keep your sink in the on position at all times in order to have the foot pedal operate.
+
+[36:22] And I don't know whether you can operate them independently. I have to read more, right? Whereas mine, the handles, the wrist handles are completely independent of the foot. So if you want to operate my sink like a normal sink with handles, you can, if you want to operate it with foot pedals, you can, or any combination thereof, you
+
+[36:39] can have the hot water on with the wrist handle, and then I
+
+[36:43] could hit the cold water with the foot pedal to moderate the temperature. I can do anything I want. So that's the real trick that I don't think that the pedal
+
+[36:50] valve, guys, are addressing because they're not looking to integrate into a particular faucet. They're looking to integrate into most of the single mixing to faucets. Anyway, my thoughts on that. Joshua Wright saying about nitro stout and bottles. Dave, Nasasha, Jack, and Joe. Not Jack. He doesn't like us. No, anyway. I've been playing around with beer gas, which is a nitrogen and CO2 blend to carbonate different beverages in order to get the creamy carbonated
+
+[37:19] mouth feel of a nitro stout. I started with clarified fruit juices and got nothing. I had a various amounts of gelatin to fruit juice because head retention in beers is protein related and got about 60 seconds of that
+
+[37:30] mouth feel I wanted before it disappeared. So what is responsible for the properties that nitro stout has, and how can I alter other beverages to have that same a creamy carbonated mouth feel for as long as possible?
+
+[37:40] I was just in New York on business and made a beeline for Sambar and Booker and Dax. Booker and Dax always managed. He has to hit it out of the park. So thank you. I also love the apothecary type glass bottles you use. I would love to find similar. Where could I get them? Thanks for the great show and for helping my culinary education, Joshua. Okay, 1st of all, in our bottles. The small ones, you, you know, I looked around. You can get them online. bestbottles.com has some, their fancier, and they're like $6 apiece. I looked on wwww.saveoncrafts.com, and they do like weddings and stuff, and they had them on like 8 ounce corktop, clear glass apothecary bottles, like a 12 count case for not that much for like 18
+
+[38:20] bucks. That's the way I go. The larger ones we use are actually Espalon, tequila Espalon bottles, uh, that they look just like those apothecary bottles, but larger
+
+[38:28] in 750 size. So we use those. Now, on the milk nitro stuff. Um, uh, here's the deal. Beer gas is nitrogen and carbon dioxide, as you say, and the point of beer gas is so that you can have a high pressure on the keg to drive the product through without having a lot of carbonation,
+
+[38:50] right? That's the idea on beer gas. You can have fairly low volumes of carbonation and a fairly high pushing pressure. So the nitrogen is there really to not dissolve into
+
+[39:00] your, um, not dissolve into your product that much. Now, on a widget, right, in a Guinness, for instance, like it's there to push through and to create small bubbles that lift up to the top and create that head, right?
+
+[39:13] They're releasing it, they're releasing it that way. Now, these nitro guys don't have a widget in there, right? It's left hand brewing company, the ones that are making this like the nitro stout. And uh, I can't get, I can't speak to what they do, but here's what I think. They said we considered putting a pat. literally, they said in 2010, I think, we considered putting a patent on the process, but didn't want our competitors to know how we do it.
+
+[39:37] And here's a little another little secret. Nitrogen is not very soluble in liquids. And that's really the point of why they're using it in beer gas to begin with. My feeling is they're not using nitrogen. My feeling is they're using nitrous oxide, which is what I use all the time to put creamy
+
+[39:55] mouthfeel into carbonated beverages and have been doing for a long, long, long time. And that's what, like, A&W, root beer, uh, did, and Sunkiss, they used to have, uh, um, creamy sodas that had nitrous in them. Nitrous oxide is completely soluble in gas, doesn't get in
+
+[40:11] liquid, doesn't give a prickly mouth feel, uh, and create and gives you that that exact thing. So what you can do as a 1st approximation, if you don't have, uh, if you don't have a source of nitrous, like I have it in the
+
+[40:24] bottles, and I have, you know, for years, I've had a mixing system where I can mix however much nitrous I want in with my carbon dioxide, is you can, uh, like kind of
+
+[40:33] pre-carbonate, uh, something, then put it into an ISI bottle, right?
+
+[40:39] Uh, and then hit it with some nitrous. And that'll put nitrous into it and it'll see whether or not that is kind of the thing that you're looking for. But since you can't make nitrogen dissolve effectively in a bottle without a mechanical widget in it. My guess is that, and again, I'd be happy to have someone tell me I'm completely wrong. But my guess is that those nitro guys are saying nitrogen, but using nitrous, which contains nitrogen, so it's not strictly speaking, a lie. But that is my, that is my feeling. What did you say before, Stas? What, 0 minutes now? Well, they're not going to let me answer any more questions? How many more do you have? I have a bunch. Here's the thing. I got a question in from Sam about parchment paper. I'll deal with that one. next week. I got another question from Josh in Antigua about quinoa and about Lupini beans. I did a lot of research actually on the Lupini beans and I got some information for you, Josh, but I guess we'll have to get to that next
+
+[41:33] week. And with that, that's the cooking issues.
+
+[41:44] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[41:54] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foods market.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more. Cooking your shoes.
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from my Burst Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one o'clock. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammerlopez. How you doing, Stuff? sick. Yeah. on the mend or not? You were really sick yesterday. Yeah. A little bit better? A little bit better. Yeah? Jack, you over there? I'm here. You wanted to, before we get going, Jack wanted us to plug some of the new stuff. For those of you, I don't know whether how people listen to this, whether they're listening to it on the
+
+[1:31] Heritage Radio Network, which we encourage, or whether you're getting this off the iTunes or
+
+[1:36] whatnot, but at the Heritage Radio Network, we have a fairly new format on our website that allows you to pull up kind of little blips and bleeps and blops of what we think are newsworthy things from our various
+
+[1:49] programs. Uh, organized by subject, along with some, you know, special presented and curated things by uh, Jack and the crew over there. So why don't you give people a little taste of what's going on over there? So what you want to do is just go visit the homepage every day and click one of the
+
+[2:06] pieces. Should we listen to it to a one minute or 2 minute piece of view here? I mean, they're about to listen to a whole, you know, I guess they're about to hear you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got someone that's not me that you can show them a little clip of? Oh, someone that's not you. Yeah, we'll get that after the break, maybe. lets kick into the show first. All right. do the show. Call in your questions. Two, 718-497-2128. That's 718497. A 21, a 28. By the way, last week, I was told that I never got to this story with where we were doing the thing with
+
+[2:34] Faran Adria. Oh, yeah. So he's doing this show at the drawing center and they were doing a fundraiser for the drawing center. And I think it was, you know, images, sketches of foods and ideas and plates and stuff from his notebooks,
+
+[2:48] right? And I didn't see it. Did you see it? Anyhow, Faran was there. I didn't really say I didn't say hello. Not because me, because he doesn't give a rat. Anyways, I didn't say hello, but it was like Thomas Keller. Daniel Balloot, Dan Barber, who else? I'm missing, I'm missing. Oh, Dominic Gansell? Yeah. Anyway. A whole, you know, oh, Mario Batali, our buddy. So that was, you know, a whole casting crew of folks there cooking this fundraising meal. $5000 a plate. $5000 a plate. And we made cocktails. So anyway, 2 of the cocktails that we put there, they're from my book, actually, my upcoming book, which I think, I think the title is set now. I think it's called Liquid Intelligence. Not my title idea, my publisher's idea. Yeah, tell me what you guys think. Although liquid intelligence is actually a technical term for kind, what I don't want to get into it. Anyway, so the, um, uh, anywho, so I do 2 this is where the story comes in. So we're sitting there. We're doing it was Piper's last day as well. Yeah, Piper... No, no longer with the company. Uh, we wish him wish him well. Yeah. So anyway, so it's our last event with Piper. We sitting there. Thomas Keller comes up. He's like, you know, we're we're plossing. We busy. You know what I mean? We're not really plastic, just, you know, prepping, whatever. And he goes, so you guys, is this going to be good? I was like, well, I don't know. I never know whether something's going to be good or not. You know, I hope I plan. I try to make everything as good as possible. He's like, well, you've done all these drinks before, right? He's like, well, you know, 2 of the ones are, you know, drinks off the bar menu. Uh, and 2 are, you know, ones that I've never served in publicly for.
+
+[4:28] He's like, well, that's really that's really stupid. That was your mistake. He's like, you know, never go to an event and do something that you haven't done a bunch of times before. I was like, damn, I just got called out as an idiot by Thomas Keller. So I was pretty psyched. I mean, like, you could do worse than getting called out as an idiot by Thomas Keller, am I right? You weren't even, like, Stas was too busy prepping, so she didn't even, I don't even think she was paying attention to that. Right? No? No? And then right after that, we did an event at our friend Galen Quinn, who's a person who shifts me to
+
+[5:00] Columbia every now and again, that the country, not the university, which by the way, as everyone knows, you spell Columbia with an O. It's not spelled like Columbia University or like Columbus, the guy. It's Colombia. For some reason Americans. Maybe is it New Yorkers or all Americans that can't get that right? don't know. have no idea. On the menu of Booker and Dax at one point, because we had a drink called the French Colombian. They put it up as like the French went to Columbia. University. Strange, right? Anyway, strange. I don't get it. Anyway, I don't know where. Oh yeah. So we were doing an event at, you know, that restaurant, feel food, right? Not Phil, Bravo, food, feel food. And Phil Bravo, by the way, who none of you have heard, but someday he
+
+[5:43] will he will regalius regale us with his mellifluous voice and his thorough Ravencroft impressions.
+
+[5:50] By the way, those who don't know throw Ravencroft. Throw Ravencroft, not only the song in the Grinch. Boris Karlov, the voice of the Grinch, but Thorold Ravencroft, the song. Also, the same guy who was did the Monster Mash voice and wait for it, Tony the Tiger. And Phil Bravo does an unbelievable Tony the Tiger. And, you know, he's just too much of a jerk to come on and do it for us because I want him to come on and do the, they're great, but the sad, they're great. Phil Bravo doing a sad Tony the Tiger, they're great is like, you know, life-changing experience. They're great. But he doesn't with, like, this, like, this super low. whatever. I don't know how the hell are they getting this? So we're doing that field food, right? Oh yeah, I remember. So they go to us, hey, look, we're getting these products in from South America, these fruit
+
+[6:36] purees, like we want you to use cashew fruit puree. Like, all right, I like cashew fruit puree. we made a drink with it. The problem with cashew fruit, puree, cashew fruit in general is it has what I always call kind of a phonology note to it, kind of like a plastic-y nose to
+
+[6:50] it. Tastes good, but we mixed it with gin. And then, uh, uh, and then we covered it up with this chuncho Amargo, which is a Peruvian bitters, right? And we like that drink. We thought it was good. And you even liked it, even though it had gin in it. Stas, I'm not going to call her out on this. In other words, oh, I am calling her out right now, is not a fan of gin, but I'm not gonna berate her for it. I'll call you out, but I won't be rate you, like other things, like biscuits, for Christ's sakes. But the, but then the other one, they're like, we want you to use one of our nut milks,
+
+[7:18] right? So, like, what they're not like nut milks like that we make, which are like straight ahead, like, you know, nut,
+
+[7:24] like milk. What was it, sunflower, seed, and hemp, like fresh cold pressed, like nut milk stuff with no stabilizers, by the way. So we made a drink with that with rum, what was it, rum, coconut water, and that nut milk. It was pretty good. And like some simple syrup and lemon juice, right? Lemon juice. So Stas and I are like, Stas and I are like, we're going to
+
+[7:48] take this gin instantly because it was done in a blender and it was like, all slushy is good. We're going to kick this thing instantly, and we're going to sell maybe 2 of these nut milk drinks, which is how it would happen if we did the event with our normal crew.
+
+[7:59] Those health food folks suck down that hemp milk like it was, I don't know. I don't know what. Stas has a hand milk face on. Pregnant lady. Wow. Well, that was you. I serve no pregnant lady. Styles was like, Styles were like, hey, look, it's... All right, whatever. said the alcohol. when I described the drink to her. Yeah? And she was an English speaker? Yeah. I said it very clear. Yeah. how did you describe the ingredient list? It's not safe. It's not safe for work. Oh, if you could only read Nastasia's lips right now, people. we would no longer have a show Uh, the, uh, okay, so uh, we have some questions in. Oh, by the way, we had a question, remember, last week, calling question on tofu, soy milk and beaniness. And I said I would research it and I did. And very interesting. I had a, we had a, um, a tweet in pointing out, now listen, a person's name is fun, and I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to get in trouble even saying this person's Twitter handled. I will say, because it's not technically a curse, but I want you to know, señor or señorita fun as the case might be. Uh, you're putting me in a bind. It's Inshallah 666. So this is theoretically, it could be an offensive Twitter handle, right? I don't know. like a mix of like of Inshallah, 666. You know, like God, you know, God willing. I'm going to do X, God willing. You know what I mean? Yeah. So anyway, Stas is not offended. Stas doesn't care. Stas doesn't care. She's like, you know, Stas is the queen of not giving a
+
+[9:36] rat. Like, she's like, what's like the queen incense insensitiva. That's her, like, completely. Yeah, she whatever. But I don't even don't even get me started, please. Don't get me started. Anyway, fun. Thank you for calling out the shirt leaf, as I've mentioned like a zillion times. I, you know, I have, you know, their tofu book that's, you know, the famous tofu
+
+[9:59] book. But they came out with a 2nd one called, um,
+
+[10:04] Oh man, what the hell is it called? It's called tofu and soy milk production, a technical guide. It's much harder to get. I don't have it, but they sent me information. And according to Shirt Leaf. Now this is like 1979, 1980, but I'm sure the research probably still stands. The beaniness is primarily caused by fat oxidation, right? Lip oxygen ace enzymes, I believe, right? And the answer to, there's several ways you can get around, so what happens is, is that
+
+[10:29] you take soybeans and they're fine. And then you blend them and all of a sudden oxygen and broken cell walls, broken cells, and, you know, the blending of the
+
+[10:40] bean, puts the enzyme, which formerly was not in contact with either oxygen, with neither oxygen, nor fat, gets put into contact with
+
+[10:49] oxygen and fat, and very quickly creates those beanie notes that you get in soy milk.
+
+[10:57] All right. So, now, someone said you can take the hulls off there. their parents took the holes off, and indeed, it seems likely from looking at the composition of, uh, so I mean, that that would actually help decrease
+
+[11:09] the, the flavor some, uh, the beanie flavor somewhat. Also using defatted soy meal, although that's just not the point. Like, if you're asking me how to make it, you're probably not going to be using defatted soy meal, right?
+
+[11:21] You probably want to use whole soybeans, which is what I want to use. So that's one option because if you remove the fat, there's no substrate for the
+
+[11:29] lipid oxidation enzymes to work on and therefore no beanie flavor, right? Third option is to keep the is to grind hot. So, uh, what shortly says in the book is that if
+
+[11:44] you, if you are grinding the soybeans and the temperature of the, of the water in the blender never goes below 80 degrees Celsius,
+
+[11:52] right? Then, and you maintain that 80 degrees for, I forget, it's like 5 to 10 minutes, then you will destroy denature,
+
+[12:00] the, uh, the lipid oxidation enzymes, but you, uh, with, and that's it. Boom, without affecting the, um, yield of the tofu or the flavor of the, or, you know, the, or the soy milk, you won't affect the yield or the texture of
+
+[12:15] it, whereas if you were to just cook the soybeans beforehand in simmering water 80
+
+[12:21] degrees long enough to deactivate the, um, enzymes before you blend them, it can adversely affect the texture of the soy
+
+[12:29] milk. It can make it gritty or chalky because you're um, swelling the, the cells and the compounds is not going to break up the same ways. If you grinded them before they had been cooked. This makes sense to us? Okay. So, what do you do? The trick is, is to use boiling water and in your blender and to not add any more soy to it than what would require to drop the temperature down below boil. So as long a bit below 80. So as long as you are adding small amounts, right? So normally when I'm making soy milk stars, I blend the soybeans at a relatively small amount of water in the blender, so I don't have to blend too many batches, and then I dump it into a relatively large amount of hot water,
+
+[13:08] right? And remember, the reaction takes very place very quickly. So you can't grind quickly and then dump into boiling water doesn't work. So it seems to me that the best way to do it. Now, the problem, though, is to take larger amounts of water, have 2 boiling pots of
+
+[13:23] water and do smaller batches with higher amounts of boiling water and then dump them into your into your boiling pot and keep the thing above 80 for the 10 minutes. The only downside here is, um, that it might be hard to get good particle size if there's too much water to soybean ratio because there's not as much solids for your blender blades to act on if it's too liquid of a slurry when you're
+
+[13:48] blending. You know what I'm saying, Stas? So it's going to take some experimentation. But I had some other ideas. I don't know whether I mentioned this on the air, but it's, I had a couple of tofu questions a couple months back. And then someone sent me
+
+[14:01] the uh, Andrea, uh, tofu book and I read that, I started making tofu again, which I hadn't done in a long time. And one of the things that she said that was really interesting was that I never thought about is that you could soak your soybeans and then you could save them for a couple of
+
+[14:15] days, like a week in the fridge, right? Without grinding them or anything. Because the real pain in the butt about, you know, soybeans,
+
+[14:22] uh, tofu is the soak time beforehand. So if you want to make tofu, you know, it's like an hour and a half commitment or something like that. Uh, you know, not working all the time. It's like an hour and a half, but you have to know like 8 to 10 hours in advance, right? And you can accelerate the soak time somewhat by using warm water, but whatever, there's a limit, you know? But then I was, I read this article that says, if you soak the soybeans and then freeze them, right, before you grind them with water, then you,
+
+[14:52] you can actually increase the firmness of the tofu and get a better, they, they say that in their texture test that people like it better. Now, it's denser, it's more uniform, it coagulates harder and faster with a slightly lower yield because it's got it's denser. Whether you like that more or less is up to you, right? But it's interesting that you can freeze it and get a different textural effect than if you hadn't. And the reason is, is that it changes the confirmations of the protein slightly. And they froze it in the article that I read. They froze it prior to grinding. So they soaked the beans and then froze the soaked beans and then just thawed the beans with the water in the blender and procedures normal. So, this won't solve your, if you're trying to make non-beanie tasting soy milk. won't solve your problem. In fact, it might exacerbate the problem. But it led me to think that what you could do is soak your beans, then backbag
+
+[15:41] them, and freeze them for a long period of time, and then just have frozen backbag soybean soaked, ready to go for soy milk, which might be awesome. It also might be possible, and I have to look up the numbers. I don't know, to inactivate these, uh, these enzymes, these, um, lipoxygen ace enzymes at lower temperatures for longer periods of
+
+[16:01] time in a vac bag, in cooking in a vac bag or even in the soak water. So let's say you had a circulator, maybe it's possible to cook it at a lower temperature, let's say, 60, 65 Celsius before the cell wall is getting too damaged, before
+
+[16:16] the beans are getting too damaged before you're doing too much to the beans. And then just do that for a long time, wipe out the enzymes, then maybe freeze and process
+
+[16:26] as normal. I'm going to test like when I have a spare minute, which won't be for a couple of weeks. I'll be testing these things in drips and drabs, and I'll get back to you as I test them because that kind of stuff's seems interesting anyway. Long winded answer to the soy problem. But whatever. I like soy. You know, there's a bunch of people on the interwebs who are anti-silly. Yeah, people are so nutty. There's an article that came out recently. I was trying to try to read a few guys for next week. If you guys can tweet into me what you think about it, there's a couple of new studies on sugar. More sugar is the devil kind of studies that are out, like, you know, like mark of the sugar is like the
+
+[17:03] mark of the beast, and like, you know, the commentators on the TV. I haven't read the article yet. I didn't get a chance to read it, but the commentators on the TV are just as rabid as they are normally like saying that, you know, trying to make some sort of differentiation between sugar and fruit and sugar and sugar.
+
+[17:18] Like, and, uh, you know, more more like magic bullet. We would all just be okay if we didn't have sugar. I want to read the actual article. And if anyone could see what they see what they think and tweet their feelings on
+
+[17:29] it into me to help guide me as I hopefully have time to investigate that for next week's show. Uh, okay. Oh, by the way, Stas, someone wrote in, uh, uh, Richard uh,
+
+[17:41] Kokovich wrote in regarding uh, you not talking to, uh, you know, telling your friends that they were sticking their tomatoes in the fridge and all this other
+
+[17:50] stuff. Talk to them this weekend about it. You did? And what happened? No, I said, isn't it funny how I don't tell you guys what to do with your food? And they said, yeah, because we all have really strong personalities. I wouldn't stand for it. And I was like, fruit. That's really weak. Hi, I have a really strong personality, so I'm going to ruin everything. I walk around with my underwear over my head and you won't tell me because my personality is so strong. I have a giant herb sticking out of my nose and you won't tell me because my personality is strong. That's weak. personality is strong. I let them all know. Uh, you should. Let them know that it is not a sign of strength to be an idiot with expensive food products and to treat them like crap for no freaking reason. group texting it anymore. Uh, and Richard agrees with me and he says, it's perfectly okay to call out enemies of quality. Recently did so to a friend over uh, because of oversteeping his French press coffee. Boom. What do you guys? I get killed for this all the time. I can't even open my mouth around my friends. Yeah, but you know what? You know what? Suck it. If someone like, if someone were to say to you, you know, if you were to do something like just like, it's not like, okay, look,
+
+[19:02] if someone is has some sort of horrible like thing that they can't help, right? Then don't bring it up. That's that's being a jackass, right? If someone, uh, you know, can't do any better because they're limited in some
+
+[19:19] way or they have bad knife skills. You don't walk up to someone who has bad knife skills, man, man, you suck with a knife. You know what I mean? Because that's just being a jerk. and they can't help it because they don't have practice, right? But obliterating an ingredient for no reason when it's just as easy to not obliterate. It takes no extra effort. In fact, it takes less effort to just leave the tomato on the freaking counter. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not the same thing. It's not the same. I won't throw the person under the bus, but I tried to tell somebody that there was cooking time on a box of
+
+[19:54] pasta and they called me, you know, pretentious or so, you know, what's that all about? Wait, you're pretentious to cook pasta? What? Yeah, they were like, oh, just cook it by feel. That doesn't matter. Well, I tend to disagree, but like this is a separate subject. I tend to disagree often with the cooking times on the boxes. Stas, of course, who likes to, you know, basically crunch on raw pasta,
+
+[20:14] like she's a rodent breaking into the box in the middle of the night. It also likes a less cooked. true. I like less cooked pasta. I don't know about the rodent. Yeah, well, she hates rodents. That's why I compared it to one. detests all rodents. true or false. Like, you don't even like to eat rabbit because you don't like rodens. But the fact of matter is, it's not pretentious to want your food cooked properly, Jack. It's just not. It's pretentious to tell someone that their food is bad because they didn't spend a lot on
+
+[20:40] it, right? That's pretentious. Like, or thinking that you automatically know better than somebody else because you think about it a lot, pretentious.
+
+[20:49] You know what I mean? whatever. You know, if someone said to me, you know what, Dave? No, you know what? I actually like the tomatoes in the fridge because I like to go to the farmer's market and spend $4 a pound on a
+
+[21:05] tomato and then convert it to texture to a bunch of mealy pulpy paste. I like it because I like that mealy pulpy paste texture. I'd be like, phew, all right, sweet. Just like my grandpa used to like be able to choose. If you handed him like a nice wine and like giant jug
+
+[21:20] wines blind, He would always pick out the jug wine. Not really, I don't think, because he liked it because I think he liked being a jerk and picking out the jug wine so he could distinguish them. So anyway, it's like if it's an actual personal preference. If somebody's cooking for you at their house, like, why are you going to bring it to what they're like, enjoy the party.
+
+[21:37] Enjoy talking to people about other stuff. Why are you going to go nitpick in their kitchen? Uh, excuse me, the presumption is not that you're sitting at a table, you walk into the
+
+[21:48] kitchen as though it's a restaurant kitchen, open their fridge and determine that they've stored their tomatoes in the fridge. It's you're cooking in the kitchen with them. And I believe when we had the original discussion. You just see it from afar. Like, you're like a tiny little apartment. How do you see into their fridge? sitting at the table and the fridge is right in front of
+
+[22:06] you that nobody has a really huge apartment like you, Dave. Oh, such a load of crap. I lived, I lived, by the way, people, people, people, people, people. I lived in an 800 square foot apartment with me, my wife, my
+
+[22:21] 2 kids, a dog, and 2 hamsters. We're talking like old school, like overcrowding situation and like 10 years of crap. Recently, I moved into what would be like still a small apartment anywhere else in the world, but a relatively large apartment for Manhattan. Yeah, but you still couldn't see into your fridge in the old apartment from the table. So I'm saying like apartments where the table is like... You can't ever see into the fridge when you're sitting at the table. Maybe there's one seat and you could see into it from the table where I was. I mean, where have I been? All my friend's apartment. The living room is the kitchen. Jack, Jack. Yeah. Jack. Let me ask you a question. Is your fridge oriented in such a way that when you go in, so if someone's sitting and actually having a leisurely conversation, see, this
+
+[23:06] is, this is classic nastasia just coming up with PS argument. I have that have refrigerators in the same room where the table is. Okay, I, I, I defy you to go into your fridge the next time you have people over. Get casually get something out of it, close it and then ask anyone at the table what was in your fridge. who hadn't helped you cook. They hadn't been there and said, hey, how much milk do I have in my fridge? Oh, wait, geez, I have no idea because I'm not looking in your fridge. I having a casual conversation with my friends, not about food or being nitpicking. Boom. Boom. Stas actually lives in her fridge, so she has got a little bit of a different kind of situation. Uh okay. Uh, Josh writes in from Antigua. You know, it's like, the point is also, and you try to make it, whenever we have an argument like this, you try to make it into me, you always bend it towards me doing something jerky.
+
+[24:05] If someone is cooking tomatoes for your meal and they've already ruined them, then yes, you don't say anything because you don't want to point out that they've ruined something that they're
+
+[24:13] going to serve you because hopefully they're proud and happy to serve you food. If the tomatoes are in the fridge and they're incidental and they're not being cooked. That is when it's okay to talk to them about it. You don't tell someone ever that something that they're serving you is bad or degraded or inferior in any way because that is
+
+[24:29] jerky. Okay. I'm over. You over what? Like, I'm not angry. Yeah, I'm angry because you're purposely trying to get me angry. No, I'm trying to make you angry. Yeah, people, you know. You can't have a conversation unless you win. No, I have, look, look, when I'm wrong, what do I say? Barely anything. Say I'm wrong. Okay. You're never wrong, though. I can't think of a time when you're wrong. Hey, you said it, not me. I said all the time. In fact, like my favorite times are when I'm dead wrong about cooking, recipes, anything, you know, why? Because being wrong is the only way you really learn. We learned here to keep those tomatoes out of the fridge. Just keep them out of the damn fridge. I mean, look. whatever, I don't know how you get into it. Look, a tomato that, like, certain tomatoes can withstand it much better than others. Those little grape tomatoes are fine. You know what I mean? Uh, but here's the other thing, Stas. Like, who has, like, a ton of extra room. If you actually cook, you don't have a lot of room in your fridge anyway, fridge is always full of stuff if you actually cook, like leftovers, ingredients, all this other stuff. So really anything you can leave out of your fridge is a bonus because fridge space is extremely limited. So's counter space, though. Well, but you're cooking. It's food, presumably. And once something's shoved into the fridge and you jam it in. You're much more likely to have it spoil and go bad because you don't even see it. I cook with things because I know that I own them. That's why I hate it when people come to my house and wrap stuff in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge because you might as well throw it away. If you wrap something in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge, throw that thing away. Because I don't know what's in there. I don't know what's in that aluminum foil. Do you think that the people who come over and they put the stuff away after dinner? You think they label that crap? No. You know what I mean? Do you use aluminum foil for wrapping? Yeah, but we usually know what's in there and we cook it in the next... I have like 4 people in my house and it's very hard to keep track of all the stuff that's in
+
+[26:25] there and like a lot of times I'm having seven, eight, 9 people over with like tons of dishes and they get put away. So in my house, if it goes in there with aluminum foil, it's done. You know, um, that's why like I, you know, I much prefer like, uh, quarts and pints because they're like, and the 8 ounces, like you keep them, they stack really easily for your
+
+[26:45] small. Apparently, you know, I no longer know what it's like to be in a small kitchen. But like, uh, but like they stack very well and they, uh, they take up less space in the fridge and they're completely reusable and microwavable, whether the lids
+
+[26:58] are not. Do you use those things in your house? They're good, right? Do you have all 3 sizes? No. Just quartz? Or just pints? Like, yeah, just quartz. Yeah, I have all three, but I was brought to my attention recently that
+
+[27:11] in, like, places like San Francisco, very few people use them because they perceive them as ungreen, I guess, because they're plastic. Do you think they perceive them as ungreen if they knew that they were used over and over and over and over again? don't know I mean, do you perceive them as ungreen? I never thought about it. What about you, Jack? You're a relatively green guy. What are your thoughts on the core container, sir? That's green enough for me. Yeah, I use them. Yeah, I love them. And like, but they, like, outside of New York, a lot of times you don't, or, you know, like San Francisco, I had a lot of problems, like people telling me that they wouldn't use
+
+[27:42] them. I mean, like, I use them, especially if I get, like, you know, some kind of soup delivered, maybe, like some Chinese soup and you use that same
+
+[27:49] court container and use it for other leftovers. Yeah, yeah. That's green. All the time. Yeah, well, but we buy them and, you know, like they get many, many, many uses unless they break or something bad happens to
+
+[28:00] them and they're polypropylene, they can be recycled, whatever. Uh, Josh writes in from Antigua. Thanks for your help with my previous question on lobster cookery. I was wondering if you learned anything new about dry lupini beans. I still have a bunch taking up room in my larder. And next to those beans are a few bags of quinoa. Do you like quinoa stars? You cook it? No? What about you, Jack? Well, you know, what I've been hearing is that there are some other better local grains we could be using than quinoa. Well, are you upset because the, the, like, there was the rush on the quinoa, and then the people who used to use it for sustenance couldn't afford it anymore? Right. Yeah. This is the problem always with things like this, is that it's like, you know, there's people with nothing. And then all of a sudden somebody wants it and then a couple of people get something who used to have nothing and then a bunch of people get shafted. Like, it's a lot of, like, like, no win situations. But let's presume that you can grow quinoa. you know, let's presume that like, you know, you're growing it in America or whatever. right? I mean, if you like the flavor of it. I like it, but I haven't cooked it that much. We puffed it in the puffing gun. I would imagine that Styles wouldn't like it that much because it's got that weird curlicue look on it. And the curly cue is not your style. You know, I mean, like, I know you well enough to know, even, because we never discussed it before, but that curly cue, and for me, it's reminiscent of a sprout curly
+
+[29:19] cue. It doesn't taste anything like a sprout, but visually it reminds me of sprouts. And as we all know, I hate sprouts. Uh, except, except cooked mung green sprouts. Okay, so the, um, Okay, unfortunately, uh, the quinoa hasn't been used because I find that no matter how much I rinse the grains, I always have several bites of cooked quinoa that contain grit.
+
+[29:39] I am new to cooking it. Is there something I can do to fix it? Okay, so on the quinoa first. It's interesting. I looked up, um, a bunch of references, because I've only cooked it a couple times, did not have that problem. But there are tons of references on online. tons of things. For instance, www.veggieboards.com. Help me cook quinoa without the crunchy bits, which is a very long thread and 210 about it. Um, and the solutions run the gamut from it being a brand by brand difference. Now, there definitely are some brands that appear to be much worse than others, but then some people said, you know, get the Rob's,
+
+[30:15] whatever it's Bob's Red Mill stuff, right? And then someone else is like, I've never had a grid in that one. Then someone else was like, no, I've had grit in that one back and forth. There's one person on one of these things who claimed that it's actually oxalate crystals because calcium oxalate, which is, you know, the same stuff that kidney stones made
+
+[30:34] of, accumulates in the leaves of quinoas. And someone said that it's that, but I wasn't able to actually verify that at all. Just someone made reference to it. Um, then another person said to not just rinse, but to do a wash with like a slurry, like you're rinsing rice, and then pour the quinoa, uh, you know, pour the stuff off the top, and
+
+[30:57] eventually after multiple rinsings, you will get, uh, you will enrich the quinoa layer at the top, uh, and
+
+[31:03] the, the bottom layer will contain all of the grit. Um, possible. I would try cooking for a very long, very long time in excess water and draining and seeing if the problem goes away because it might be possible that you're just not hydrating all of the things equally and you're having an actual piece of uncooked quinoa, which someone else suggested, but that's easy to test because if you just cook in excess water, then you're
+
+[31:28] gonna, you're gonna find out whether you were having a lack of hydration and you're getting crunchy, uncooked
+
+[31:32] quinoa, or whether or not you actually have excess grit. Um, so, anyhow, you know, and the problem with rinsing it out, obviously, is that the grains are so freaking small that it's hard to rinse out the grit because how you gonna, you
+
+[31:46] can't like have it just fall through, right? stuff. So this other person, uh, Geo
+
+[31:51] cook in one of the things, uh, he, he or she actually gold panned it because they're a gold panner. so they sat there and gold panned the quinoa so that all the grit would fall to the bottom. So I said, I couldn't be more help on that. But other Lupini beans. So Lupini beans contain toxins, bitter alkaloid toxins that you need to
+
+[32:10] leech out. And the fact of the matter is, is that they make ones that are sweet, that don't have the alkaloids, but apparently people who like the
+
+[32:18] Lupini beans. Do you like lupini beans? you ever eat those things? Well, they usually serve them like cold, like in a pickle or in vinegar, like on the table in oil. Anyway. So, so the steps. And I looked up a bunch of the things, you really don't want to take any shortcuts on it. And I tried desperately to look for shortcuts on it. And I haven't done it myself, but I plan on doing it because I want to try it.
+
+[32:39] is you soak the beans overnight in excess water, right? And so what you're doing here is partially hydrating the beans, just like you would soaking a bean for cooking. Then you dump that water and then you cook it in water, right? Uh, and they say uh, with salt. Now, the cooking here is softening the bean cooking it so that water can get in and out of it and leeching out some of the evil poisons. Then you keep, you drain them, put them back in water, and then change the water a bunch of times to slowly over the course of
+
+[33:17] days, and days, uh, could be like a week or more, uh, in water to leach out the alkaloids, and then you can literally just taste them, and when they're no longer bitter, when they're bitter to your preference,
+
+[33:30] then, uh, you pull them out and you, and you do whatever you want with them. But that's how you do them. I want to try it. I kind of want to try it. But that's how that's how that's how you do. But I, it's kind of unbelievable to me that they sell them, uh, and like no warning on them that you can't just cook this like a bean. But the good news is, is that the reason you don't have too much
+
+[33:49] Lupini bean poisoning is that apparently if you don't treat them right, they're horribly bitter. So it's not like you would be like, man, it's delicious. I'm going to eat a whole bunch of this and then die from the die from the poisoning. Although there have been cases of uh, people who uh, were hospitalized due to uh, lupini toxicity. Yeah? Yeah, okay. Hey, Dave, we had something really quick come in. about kind of, you know, apps and techie stuff for food. People at Tech Serve showed us. They got a chef stand for the iPad and this eye grill thing where like you can connect via Bluetooth and see what temperature something's cooking in from another room.
+
+[34:25] Do you have any other sort of like techie apps like that that
+
+[34:28] you like look like using in the kitchen? I use the internets. Yeah. No, I don't know. I't really. No, I mean, I use, I haven't used any, like, the digital thermometers. I occasionally use like the sous vide dash, the one the polyscience, and those guys did together with those, but no, I mean, I use I use like decent calculators, you know, like pretty decent calculators when I'm doing calculations for things.
+
+[34:52] And I have my own stuff that I've written when I, when I'm doing, uh, recipe development, but that's more on a computer, not on an iPad, but I'll think about it. No apps? No apps. Oh, look, I'll think about it. All right. I'll think about it. Hey, you want to go to a super quick break so we can do that thing before we have to go? let's do it. All right.
+
+[35:35] And we're back. I thought you were going to do the thing. Yeah, we're gonna play one right now. It's kind of cheeky. It's called Field of Compost Dreams. And it's a short little news report from Heritage Radio. Tabord Inn, Tabord Inn.com. heritageradionetwork.org. Business. 2013 was a pretty good year for recycling legislation in New York City. The New York City Council approved legislation, banning food service expanded poly streams, or EPS, or Styrofoam, and also approved a bill that would require large restaurants and food manufacturers to compost.
+
+[36:17] That's right, require large restaurants and food manufacturers in New York City to compost. Sound too good to be true? Well, that's pretty much the case. Our recycling expert and founder of plasticbaglaws.com, Jenny Romer explains the piece of legislation. Commercial composting legislation, requires that all large restaurants and food manufacturers compost and that doesn't take effect until the commissioner finds that there are enough facilities within 100 miles of New York City that will cost effectively take
+
+[36:52] composting. So what that means is the city will force these food establishments to compost, when they have somewhere to send the compost to,
+
+[37:01] make sense. It's a field of dreams type thing where if you build it, they will come. It's creating a market for compost because right now there are companies that make these kind of facilities that aren't
+
+[37:13] going to build them near New York City if there's no market for compost, but if there's a market developed, then they'll create them and then restaurants will have somewhere local or somewhat local within the region to
+
+[37:26] actually. Yeah, we'll cut off there. But that's that's the suggest of it. Yeah, and so you get like these like curated little thingamajigs, right? On various subjects. By the way, I don't know this. I'm testing, not the not the process, the word compost. Give me some thoughts. That's okay It's okay. Even though it's like says like compost. Yeah, all right. interesting. And so what was her plastic bag thing, by the way? Because as you know, I'm trying to kick the habit. Oh, are you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a whole nother piece we did. She runs plasticbaglaws.org pushing for plastic bags to be banned in New York City.
+
+[38:01] I think what's going to happen 1st would be like a ¢10 surcharge to the place, you know, using the plastic
+
+[38:07] bag. So I think that would actually get passed on to you. So if you buy something at a bodega, it would be ¢10 more. Always gets passed on to me. Right, yeah. But I mean, you know, who needs plastic bags? Well, I mean, I'm trying to kick it. So like, you know, like places that encourage you to have your own bags, right? It's easy to uh, not to not use them because they push it. Some places like they auto put them into bags like, you know, my local fine fare, um, supermarket. Um, But, you know, the other issue is on plastic in general for this kind of stuff, uh, Like, it's very difficult to put your house waste, like, I'm in an apartment, I have to use these small bags because things have to fit in my trash chute.
+
+[38:51] And what you look up is it's the supply of actual, for instance, completely compostable bags to use as trash bags at
+
+[39:01] home, minimal. You know what I mean? It's like the stuff that they're selling. And that's why I don't even know whether the poop bags I use for the dog, like
+
+[39:07] what, like how like real, because a lot of these guys, they, what they do is they make plastic that just breaks up into smaller pieces over
+
+[39:14] time. doesn't really go away. It just turns into like plastic dust, which isn't the same thing as actually going back to the earth. You know, is that, it's, it's a difficult problem because we haven't, like none of our systems are developed
+
+[39:27] to, um, to completely do away with, uh, with the bags. And sometimes, you know, especially when you're, you know, shopping large quantities. I don't carry those damn carts around me. I hate those freaking things. You know what I mean? Like, I'd much rather, and if you've ever seen me shop, I'll carry like 15 heavy bags home and look like I'm lumbering, like an elephant home rather than push one of those damn cards. Are you a cart lady? What about you, Jack? You cart man? No cart. you know, 15 bags. I actually like that, you know? How many can I carry? Right, but the issue there is sometimes you don't know how much you're going to shop for. So, like, I always say, my my actual shoulder bag is quite large. So, like, I can, and I can unflap one of the flaps and turn it into a massive tent to
+
+[40:11] tense stuff underneath it. But if all of a sudden you go over that, and the place doesn't carry paper that's decent, then you're in plastic land again.
+
+[40:19] Or if, um, you know, like, you know, Whole Foods, they'll put stuff in paper for you, but you better hope it doesn't rain on the
+
+[40:27] way home. Oh, that happened to me, yeah. Yeah, your host. Because what are you going to do when, because I walk home, right? Which is green, a walk or bike home, but then if something rips when you're on a walk, you're done. It's it. You know what I mean? Uh, so, of course, plastic rips often as well, but... So, Dave, I've got 2 callers. Let's take the 1st one first. Alrighty, call her. on the air. Hey, David, Nathan from Virginia. Hey, how you doing? Good. I had a question about articles, academic food articles. You mentioned them a lot and I was wondering if you could point us to a place to look them up. Okay, so here's the problem. Most of the, uh, scholarly articles online, uh,
+
+[41:09] are you have to have like a username and password, you have to be associated with the university. I may or may not poach somebody else's access to a university server to get on
+
+[41:24] it. A lot of what I use primarily I use the search engine called science direct, which is, um, um, a compilation of El Sevier, uh,
+
+[41:36] El Sevier journals. They have a lot of them, or I'll use some like Wiley, or I used to use Blackwell synergy a lot. And they're large aggregators of journal files. And then if you're in a university setting, you can also usually do cross-database searches for particular things. So it allows you to hone in very quickly on it. And then the really great thing about these sites, because they're built for researchers, is that you can cross ref, cross ref,
+
+[42:02] you know, you can look at their references and sometimes just link through directly. Sometimes if you have a really good public library, they'll have access to it in-house, but they won't let you do it at home because they're all paid service. So some of these things, for instance, in New York, I can get at the NYPL. near a public library. But, you know, some you can't. But what I recommend is finding a friend, acquaintance, or
+
+[42:26] a relative who is a professor at a major university, and
+
+[42:32] beg, borrow, and steal from them their online access codes to get into the
+
+[42:39] servers. And then you can get all this stuff. awesome. Okay, thanks. No, no problem. Hopefully I wasn't giving away to my my, uh, getting my, my connection in trouble. That's why I didn't mention who it is Caller number two. Caller, you're on the air. Uh, yes, I've been doing some sous vide, and I've gotten one inch pork chops, put them into a vacuum bag with prunes, uh, dried
+
+[43:03] prunes and dried apricots, 145 degrees for 6 hours. The prunes are wonderful. They're nice and soft and mushy. Apricots are not. Huh. Why is that? And they're both, they're both. How is the pork? Oh the pork's great. Oh good. Uh, huh. So the apricots, you're saying, got mushy and the prunes? No, the prunes got mushy, but the apricots are still, you know, very hard, like,
+
+[43:35] they're not tough, but, you know, it's not the same mushiness that uh, the prunes are. Right. What kind of apricots are you using? Just accurosity. Um, dried apricots? But like, like the smaller ones or like the big flat, like the Blenheims? Are the really sour ones or the not really sour ones? They're not really sour. I guess they're probably about an inch big. Yeah, I know the ones you're referring to. So my, you know, my only guess is that, um, I think the prunes probably have a higher moisture content to begin
+
+[44:08] with, and so they probably break up easier and faster. Uh, and if you were to do like a light pre-boil on the apricots, they might, they might
+
+[44:18] uh, come out, but I don't know. I'd have to run some tests. I don't think in other words, I don't think they're being treated to, um, I don't think they're being treated to strengthen the pectin any,
+
+[44:28] right? So you could pre-treat an apricot, such that the pectin would degrade much less over time. But at the temperatures that you're cooking, you're not really going to be degrading the pect in
+
+[44:41] any way. You're going to be dealing with the kind of natural mushiness. And plums, I think, inherently by higher sugar and probably going to be mushier and that apricots might benefit from some higher thermal
+
+[44:52] temperatures, like above 85 or so. That's really going to break down a Celsius. Going to break down, you know, the structure, the pectin structure, if that's what's holding it together. So you might try like a little pre-treatment on the apricot. Maybe not even in like maybe just a little bit of water in a separate bag, you know, just simmer it for like 15, 20 minutes, pull it
+
+[45:13] out, and then add them to your recipe and see whether that helps, although it's an extra step.
+
+[45:18] Yeah, your step. I've been sort of playing around with it. I've been soaking and I, you know, preheated some apricots, but I don't know what the sweet spot is. So I'm still trying to figure this out. And I thought I got it pre-done enough, but then my, my prunes were wonderful, but my apricots were not, and my son suggested I give you a
+
+[45:40] call, and, and he, he, he thought pectin, pectin breakdown. So that probably is it. Yeah, I mean, you could try to, the problem is, is that let's say you were to cut the, one of the things on the apricots, that the kind that you're getting are whole apricots, right? skin on both sides. So you might want to cut them in half such that you have access to the center more readily, so you're not trying to rehydrate only through the skin. Uh, the other, the other thing you might, uh, I mean, you could try like a pectin degrading enzyme in there, but I think it's just going to get mushy.
+
+[46:11] I don't think it's going to make the texture nice. I think it's just going to like kind of create a mushy layer around the outside. That's my guess. When you say you pre-treated the apricots, like what do you just like put them in like boiling water for like 5 minutes to let them soak up like in a teacup or something like that? Yeah, and that didn't help it. It helped a little bit, but not enough. So, and I'm trying, so I'm trying to determine what I really should be doing, what the sweet spot is. And they're not chopped. You leave them whole? Um, I cut them in half. Yeah, you already cut them in half. Jeez. All right. Well, you know what? Let's see whether anyone out there has any experience with this. And then, you know, if we hear anything back on Twitter, so someone sends to act cooking issues on Twitter, like their
+
+[46:54] experience. Because a lot of times I'll get people, they listen, they have a solution,
+
+[46:58] they'll, they'll, you know, tweet in, then I can talk about it on the next show. But off the top of my head, you're doing what I would do. I would pre-treat in hot water, uh, maybe even pre-cook in a bag, cut them in half. Those are all good, good steps. You know what you could do? that's not that hard, is put cut them in half, put them in the vac bag, right, that you're going to use for the pork with a little bit of liquid. Remember, it doesn't there's not going to break down that well without liquid to help break down the
+
+[47:29] pectin. It takes a much higher temperature to break down the structure of the apricot when it's
+
+[47:33] dry than when it's moist. So whatever liquid you're going to put in the bag, which shouldn't be too much, because it's going to taste poached, but put them in just with the apricots into the bag, and then immerse the bag in simmering waters. Make sure you don't melt it, right? You can do a light seal on it, whatever. And then just cut open that 1st seal after it cools down, just cut open that 1st seal and then put your pork and prunes directly into the bag with the
+
+[47:56] apricots. You don't have to futz around with a bunch of different bags, vac and reseal, and then cook that. Sounds good will try it. All right. And then, if you can, tweet to at cooking issues and tell me what the results were so I can figure out whether any of this stuff works. Okay, terrific. Will do. Thanks a lot. you. So Paul, quickly, Paul, Paul wrote in and said, hey, I was thinking about getting myself a 2nd copy of Harold McGee's, the curious cook, but saw
+
+[48:20] 2 different looking versions on Amazon, Amazon, UK, actually. Uh, see the screenshot below. Do you know if they're actually the same? And if they're different, which would you recommend? Thanks, Paul. I was going to get a Harold to come on, but he couldn't. in meetings all morning to say it, but one says the curious cook, taking the lid off kitchen facts and fallacies. Uh, and that one has a non-standard cover on it, and that one's from 1992. The original, the curious cook, more kitchen science and lure by Harold McGee, November 1990, is the only one I own. That's the original. The other one's probably a British kind of printing of it that was done a couple years after the original. I'm going to try to ask Harold exactly what the difference is between them. But I would go for the good old-fashioned, honest to good one, that's just the black cover with the yellow thing that says the curious cook, more kitchen and science lower. That's the one I would go with. Uh, they're going to they're going to cut us off. We got a second. We're cutting you off. All right. William McGee, not the other Diver McGee. I'm going to get your French fry stuff and Rodney, I'm going to get your coconut flour next time. Cooking issues.
+
+[49:31] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Joined in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good, Jack, the headphones are really loud. Well, maybe just yours. Maybe not. Actually, I'm not. I think mine are too, but normally I don't complain. I just, I just, I just suck it up. on the other hand. I wonder who was here before you. Someone who's decent? Is that better, guys? Yeah. So listen, Jack, you, well, you know, not from Brooklyn anymore, but you still, you know the Bushwick news, right? So I'm I just want to... Yeah, so here's the thing. I want you guys to know Heritage Heritage Meats, whose offices are right here in Bushwick over on Siegel
+
+[1:19] Street, not involved with the largest cockfighting ring in New York history that was just broken
+
+[1:25] up. What was it yesterday, the day before you read what this does? They, uh, the biggest cockwriting thing. What do you know about it, Jack? I mean, I used to live near some of those places, so I'd seal the live poultry markets kind of walk by, but I didn't realize those live poultry markets were also, you know, underground
+
+[1:40] cockfighting rings. Yeah, yeah. And they busted a farm in upstate. And you know, that was that was a component of the farm bill that passed, actually, included some
+
+[1:51] some language and legislation on being tougher on animal fighting
+
+[1:56] circuits. So maybe that has something to do with that. Really? I did not know that. Do we have any good references for people to go to on our website for our feelings as
+
+[2:07] a network on the farm bill and what's going on? Absolutely. Yeah. Tomorrow, on our front page, we're going to run a piece that has opinions from Marion Nessel, Michelle Nishan,
+
+[2:17] the folks over at just food and a few others. So we kind of sourced a whole bunch of opinions and broke down the farm bill. So check the homepage tomorrow. That would be Wednesday. February 12th. Nice. Good leading, am I right? All right? Yeah, nice. Nice, strong. Okay, uh, so we had a question in on the Twitter from uh, Matt
+
+[2:37] Schuster saying, uh, at cooking issues. Hey, Dave, any suggestions for a food dehydrator with a timer for a small
+
+[2:44] 50 seat restaurant, I want to demoist things. Well, okay, I don't really have any, like, the one I use, I use almost exclusively is the Excalibur,
+
+[2:54] which, you know, most restaurant folks that I know also use the Excalibur. But the question is, how much stuff are you going to
+
+[3:05] dehydrate and on what kind of a consistent basis? Now, the Excalibur doesn't have a timer on it. But like I say, I haven't used ones with a timer. My main experience comes from either using the Excalibur or the crappy round ones. Now, the Excalibur just beats the pants off of the crappy round ones. And the reason is, because it can hold a lot more than the crappy round ones can. And because the way the airflow works in it, it's not coming up through the center, it's kind of passed along all the racks from the back. It's a lot more even rack to rack. But, and the Excalibur is good because it's relatively small for the amount of stuff it can dehydrate.
+
+[3:42] So, you know, you can dehydrate, you know, in the small excalibber, which is when I have, you can dehydrate like £2 of pasta, right?
+
+[3:50] in one go, uh, or you know, things like that. Now, back, the kind of kings and queens of dehydration that I have met are the folks at pure, uh, at pure food, uh, and wine, Sarma
+
+[4:04] Melongaius's joint. And back in the day, they used to run, did you visit that kitchen with these stars? They ran the entire kitchen was, it was like a library of
+
+[4:15] Excalibur, like Excalibur, stocked on Excalibur, like whole walls of Excalibur. And I was joking with her when I visited years ago that it was the hottest kitchen I had ever been in in my life, even though it was like raw cooking and they didn't have anything because of all those freaking dehydrators running all the time.
+
+[4:31] Excalibur, I believe, I haven't had time to check it because I just got the tweet in, but Excalibur makes a much larger version now.
+
+[4:40] And I know some people that have used the Cabela's. the Cabella's dehydrator, you know, Cabella's the folks that, you know, they sell outdoor gear, although I
+
+[4:48] hear I've never been to a Cabella store. I hear that they used to be like the life-changing sports store, but now Stas has a new one that we need to go to. What's it called? Big bass fishing or something. you say it's like in the most amazing story you've ever been in, right? The one in Foxborough. Where's Foxborough? In the stadium. Gillette stadium. Which state? Massachusetts. Massachusetts, yeah. And you said it was like the greatest story you've ever visited in your life, right? It is. It had like, what it had that you could get mauled by a bear or something if you wanted or something? They had shooting, fishing. They had shooting in the store. But one of those, like, where you hit the target with the, with the, not the crappy ones from the, from the carnival where they shoot all in different directions and you can't actually knock the star out. No, this was, yeah, really cool. I took Booker and Dax last summer to one of those things and they had to try. they wanted to try and shoot that pellet. You know, those horrible pellet guns at the carney things. And like there's one little bit of star left and they don't get the prize. kids, that's how it works. You're not supposed to win. This is like learn, like, kids don't learn. I still have a twins that I want to do those kinds of things. Did you used to play carnival games as a kid? Because your parents didn't let you because you just, like, even back then you're like, I hate the carnival games. I don't know. just never did. No? So anyway, so ask yourself why you need a timer on your dehydrator. Here's what I typically do when I'm dehydrating. And I'm sorry that my, my, uh, recommendations can't, I don't have any personal use of large ones. You know what I always want to do for really large stuff. Now, 50, 60 seats. you're only doing a couple garnishes, Excalibur is great. And then even up to the point of buying 2 Excaliburs, I would do it that way, and here's why. You can have 2 different Excaliburs set to 2 different drying
+
+[6:28] regimens, uh, and you don't then need to, um, the brain just turned off. isn't that crazy? That happens sometimes, huh? Brain off. You don't need to worry about whether or not 2 things are different. You can have 2 things that want to go at different temperatures going at the same time if you just have 2 Excalibers. Um, I've always wanted someone to do large scale stuff, and I believe the
+
+[6:49] guys, uh, at, uh, Pure Food, did this also feel food, uh, you know, Gaelen and Fernando's place down, uh, that we did that event
+
+[6:55] that they had, uh, they have like a bunch of dehydrators. I think they had the larger Excaliburs, right? Did you notice back in the kitchen? So the, what I would do is get a couple of those. When you're using a dehydrator, I don't know that a timer, strictly speaking, so necessary. What I tend to do is I start my dehydrators fairly high because there's a huge temperature gradient that
+
+[7:19] forms as you, because as you're evaporating liquid off of your foods at the get go and they're still fairly high water,
+
+[7:24] you get a lot of evaporative cooling around the surface of your product. And so to speed dehydration, I always start the dehydrator at a higher temperature.
+
+[7:34] And then I turn it down. So a lot of times when I'm doing puff snacks, the main problem is you don't want to overdehydrate because then you don't have enough moisture left in the stuff to puff properly.
+
+[7:44] So what I'll do is, is I'll jack it to like 135,
+
+[7:50] uh, which I don't know what that is in Celsius, but like 135 Fahrenheit, uh, for a couple of hours, and then I'll just turn it down to low, down to like a 100 or something like this, uh, and then let it ride overnight. Now, when the fans are going, it's not going to pick up a lot of moisture unless it's extremely humid in your kitchen, and it'll slowly equilibrate and come down. And then in the morning, if it's still a little bit too soft, it won't be too dry at this point, but if it's still a little bit too soft, then I can jack the temperature for another hour or
+
+[8:17] so, but I just leave them running on low overnight is typically what I do. But you have to really low so you don't overdry your products. If you wanted a project, The Excalibur is a fairly good case, except the plastic on it tends to break is the only issue in it. You could put a PID on it. I've never done it, but you could get a, you could get some way of measuring humidity at those low temperatures and kind of measure the humidity in the box or maybe
+
+[8:40] even, if possible. You could just do it on li and then drive it with a with a PID controller so that it would ramp itself down. I haven't done it. Uh, but it's technically feasible and I'd say you could probably do it for under 200 bucks, uh, even with the weird stuff you'd be measuring. Trivially, less if you just want to put it on a timer and ramp silk, you can go to Uber instruments or anything like that and buy a controller that you could put on a timer and ramp soak the
+
+[9:06] temperature. if you didn't care about external measurements. And that would be a trivial problem, that would cost you, like on the order of like 45 bucks to do. And, you know, if you've never done one before, it would take you probably a couple hours to figure it out. But I always wanted to do that with a bread with a breadproof or. We were going to do that. Remember years ago we were going to do that. We never did it. We were going to convert a giant breadproofer into a dehydrator. I think someone probably does that commercially because it's a good idea and it makes sense. anyway. So much for dehydrators. I was doing a bunch of, what was I doing on my dehydrator? pasta recently I was doing. Hey, we got a caller. Color. on the air. Hi, Dave. Natasha, Jack, everyone. it's Brian. How you doing? doing well, yourself? Good. Um, so 2 things. One is, I have a question about bread, but, uh, 1st is that, uh, never
+
+[9:52] heard heard the final answer about making my own coach you from the, uh, the other week. I know, dude, I have not gotten a hold of Ryan yet, is the reason why you haven't gotten the information yet. I need to get a hold of those guys. I've like, they've been kind, they haven't been MIA. I've been MIA, which is why you don't have the final answer yet. So we'll start with the other one and I still owe you that answer. Well thank you very much. I'll hold on for that. Um, but this one has to do with, with, with bread baking at home. So um, I don't have a deck oven. Uh, here, you know, so, um, I have no possibility of, um, you know, injecting steam
+
+[10:28] into into, into my oven, you know, through the oven itself. And so my question is, you know, I've been doing a little bit of reading, and I'm looking at the, a couple different books, and one is, uh, the Tartine bread book, which says, um, uh, they, they use a, um, a combo cooker,
+
+[10:46] uh, It's kind of like a Dutch oven, basically, um, in which the kind of the smaller part, um,
+
+[10:52] they, they kind of bake essentially on the lid. Um, so it's basically like a Dutch oven, um, as a way of kind of capturing the steam, and then the other one... You mean, like, like, Lahey style? Like Lazy style. Exactly. All right. So, uh, except that if you use what's called a combo cooker, it makes it easier to, to, to not burn yourself.
+
+[11:12] Um, And then the other other thing, and they're made by Loach, by the way. And then the other thing I'm looking at is the Bushon Bakery, um, uh, a cookbook from, um, Thomas Keller, and Sebastian Ruxell, and they're saying basically, um, take a ridiculous amount of, um, river stones and
+
+[11:33] chain, and and put it in, in the, in the bottom of the, of the oven as a way of, of catching all the heat, and then take a super soaker, and inject a huge amount of water into the
+
+[11:45] oven, so it all kind of, uh, turns to, turns to steam. And I'm kind of wondering what's the best way to get steam into the oven, which of these 2 methods would be
+
+[11:55] most, most effective for bread baking. Okay, now your oven is underfired gas oven? Yeah, okay. It's a standard standard home, got seven. Right, but the heat comes from then from below. Correct. Yeah, because you can't pull that, like if you have like an electric oven with upper elements and stuff like that. You can't pull that lower chain. The reason that the chains and whatnot on the bottom of the oven is because that's where the heat is most intense. So that's like an old school, uh, you know, bread baker's way to kind of, um, you know, do, you know,
+
+[12:26] clutch, uh, having, you know, real steam injection. And it works the way that it obviously sounds, it's going to work by, um,
+
+[12:34] literally, you, you put a bunch of, you know, stuff in the bottom with thermal mass, let it heat up,
+
+[12:41] right? And then, and they used, look, stones, I'd be a little bit wary of because everyone says like Riverstones aren't
+
+[12:49] going to break. I've put stones that I thought were pretty smooth in fires and had them blow up before. Now the oven's probably maybe not be violent enough to blow a stone apart, but I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Uh, you know, I've I've put many stones on fires before for various reasons and had them
+
+[13:08] explode, kind of spectacularly explode. Now, it's inside of an oven, but you wouldn't want to be lowering your oven and putting your face in there when you're loading
+
+[13:18] something to, you know, just to have something explode on you. You know what I mean? Um, so I don't know. I think that's the super soaker, where you can do it from a distance. Yeah. Oh, yeah, good idea. Super soaker. I forgot super. when you said super soaker, you know, I was in my head, I was thinking spray bottle because that's what I'm used to. Uh, so it's super soaker. interesting. My kids would love it if I had to bring a super soaker home to cook with. absolutely love it. Um, but the, um, so, I mean, that works, right? Um, the, you know, I've never done a lot of the, like, Lahey style. By the way, that thing you call a combo cookers, that like their camp oven? Is that the Loge camp oven? Like their old school Dutch camp oven? Google Google combo cooker. And so basically it's, um, it's got
+
+[14:02] a, like what the lid would have a handle and I think you can cook on it separately. It's kind of like the lid would be the skillet and then you put the, the pop kind of right over it
+
+[14:12] is, is the, is the technique. Um, in, in, in this case. Oh, inverted. Inverted. yeah. you're not having to like try to jam the your dough into a hot Dutch oven. Yeah, I think that's like the old camp cookers that you could flip the lids on and do stuff like that. They're pretty cool. Do you like it? I don't have one. I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should get one or if, um,
+
+[14:36] you know, I should go with the, with the, the Bushan method. Well, do you like the Lahey? Do you like that Lahey style? Like the no need, kind of very loose, like uh, large internal or regular bubble stuff cooked in a Dutch oven? Do you like it? Um, I've, I've tried it in a, in a Dutch oven at a friend's house and the
+
+[14:57] dough, and it tasted fine, but the problem is, is you got to shape it into a bowl. Right? So you can't have other shapes of bread. Well, I mean, that dough is so loose anyway that you're going to have, it's going to be problematic, I think, to do. I mean, at least the recipes of it I've tried is very loose. I would try that... But it doesn't matter what, you know, what the, what the dough is necessarily. I guess my question has to do with the method. Right. And, and I guess the other problem with that is that, you know, does it, in addition to what it does in terms of capturing steam, how does it change the temperature? of the bread, because then you have this kind of radiating heat source, around, around the bread, in addition to the oven. Right. Well, I mean, I think of it mainly, I haven't thought about the 2nd aspect of it. I've really spent most of my kind of the mental energy on thinking about those things about the actual ability of
+
+[15:50] the closed but still vented container to deliver steam to the crust over the initial portion of the bacon before the initial dehydration hits it, right?
+
+[15:58] Right. And look, it's effective. Look, I tend to, you know, you know, when I was doing it. I use I didn't use Riverstones. I had a lot of masonry at the bottom of my oven, and I would throw water on it, uh, to cause kind of, you know, violent steam eruptions whenever, you know,
+
+[16:17] when when I loaded and when I when I didn't. And I always had good luck with doing it that way. I never did the chains because I had a lot of masonry. The reason why a lot of people don't recommend, and this is, you know, the flip side, putting a lot of masonry,
+
+[16:31] you know, or stones or chains or stuff in chains aren't going to affect the thermal massy oven as much because metal heats up fairly quickly. Uh, but, you know, in my, the, the 1st one I did, which had a boatload of fire break in it, it would
+
+[16:46] take uh, like an hour and a half to heat up all the way. You know what I mean? And, you know, I solved that in the last oven. I haven't modified my current. Well, I did a little bit, but I haven't fully modified my current oven. In my last modified oven, I did that. I put secondary heating elements into my oven. And the secondary heating elements allowed me to heat up a
+
+[17:09] massive masonry fairly, fairly quickly. Uh, which now I'm, you know, I'm using less masonry as well, more nimbly with, with the heating elements in it. Um, So, you know, if you could get away, if you like the results by doing the kind of
+
+[17:25] chain uh, and steam method, the thing I like about that is, it leaves you a lot more open with loading your oven and futching around because you're not worried about having to fit inside of some sort of Dutch oven or skillet
+
+[17:40] thing. You can just have your stone, or if you're a steel person, if
+
+[17:43] you, you know, buy the modernist cooking story and switch to steel instead of stone for your bottom,
+
+[17:51] it gives you much more ability to load things in different ways.
+
+[17:55] Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just, uh, it enables you to make different ships. I can make my guts and and things that doesn't have to be round and fit into the, into the Dutch, Dutch oven. But as far as steam injection, you're not sure which is going to be most effective. No. kind of stimulating that. Okay. No, but, you know, look, I've had some people say to me, hey, you know, the steam dissipates very quickly when you just put steam in the, you know, the other thing people used to do is they load ice cubes
+
+[18:22] in uh, on sheet trays right on the bottom of the hot oven and then they would vaporize fairly quickly because a lot of people complain that
+
+[18:30] the, a toss of water on, the steam dissipates so quickly that you're not getting the full effect that you would want.
+
+[18:35] That's the argument for the Dutch oven being the better technology because it's going to contain more steam around the bread longer than throwing the thing in. And that's why some people used to do, like, kind of ice cubes on the bottom instead of, um, instead of water because it was guaranteeing like a longer delivery
+
+[18:51] of, uh, moisture to the product. I don't necessarily know, I believe that. I'll tell you what I'm actually going to do. Uh, but I don't know how how, you know, much you're allowed to modify your oven. I'm, I'm planning on getting, um, like, uh, uh,
+
+[19:08] there's a, most ovens on the side where the control stuff is have a place uh, where you can drill a small hole, and I'm, I was going to drill a small hole into it, and then uh, have a copper tube feeding up out of it with uh, uh, like a bottle that you could set like an IV drip and just have it drip uh, water in and
+
+[19:27] I could change whatever rate you want and actually add water to the oven with the door closed.
+
+[19:31] And that's what I'm going to do. Uh, you know, fairly soon. Like that, my, just handed my, my book manuscript. And again, the copywritten. So I have a little more time. So hopefully I'm going to do that in the next couple of weeks. The other thing, have you bought for loading? Have you bought a super peel yet? No, I haven't. You've seen it though? I've seen it. It's like, uh, you kind of pull it and then the canvas kind of rolls down. Yeah, it's freaking awesome. I haven't got a chance to use it that much, but it's freaking awesome. I bought it for my for my kid's birthday party when I was going to do a bunch of pizza and Dagnabbit. It's like, I used to, you ever do that kind of baking bread and that kind of stuff? I like detest loading stuff off and on peels. So much so that when I used to do pizza, I would make the pizzas on parchment paper and then cut the parchment paper out and then just load all of my racks with pizza loaded on parchment and then
+
+[20:26] cook them on the parchment paper because it's so easy to load parchment off and on. But the super peel. I like it so far. Check it out. I mean, it sounds like it's probably really good for really flack does. Oh, yeah. I mean, because you're not touching. You're not moving around. If you look, if you've done it, done any breadloading on peels before. But the pros, that always make it look easy, but I don't bake bread that often, you know? And I hate having to shake it and then I hate over, over, you know, overflowering or over whatever you add, whatever you're, you know, proprieties are. On the bottom. I hate that. And then you get that little extra crap of like, you know, either floury or like burn on the butt. I hate it. You know what I mean? I hate it. And I hate the thought of it sticking. I hate sitting down there and and scudgying around with it near my oven. I hate it. I hate it all. But the super peel, uh, you know, that's a pretty cool little uh, piece of uh, kit, get her on Amazon now, by the way. Look into it. What do you think about those baking steels that modernist cuisine recommends? You think that just getting the river rocks and the, and the chain is, is just as good. Well, the, the, the river rocks in the chain is not to bake right on top of. That's for literally just for the steam aspect of it. Right? So it's not meant to replace, uh, it's not meant to replace the way in which uh, heat energy is delivered to the bottom of the crust uh, on, you know, on initial bake in um, in breads. And so the old school way of doing it, which was based literally on trying to convert your oven into, you know, an old masonry oven, you know, so if you go and you read like the breadbuilders by, um, oh my gosh,
+
+[22:03] who's by, uh, Dove and Wings, God, I think, I forget the names of the authors, but the breadbuilders, which was one of the 1st, you know, you know, decades ago, whatever, a couple decades ago, like one of the 1st kind of really cool,
+
+[22:12] like here's how to build a bread oven book for folks like us. And, you know, it's like mimicking a bread oven inside, and that's the baking stone, right? Now, the thing about a stone is, is that they store heat for a long time, but they're very slow kind of at
+
+[22:28] releasing it. It's kind of retained heat kind of technology. Whereas the guys at modernist cuisine, and I've spoken at length with Chris Young about this, who's now running chef steps, and I, you know, I think this was, you know, in
+
+[22:37] part like his doing, uh, well, at least at least 13rd in part, right? Because he was, you know, the 2nd author on that book, is you don't need to store up the energy for a long time. You just need to deliver it fairly quickly at the beginning. And so you need a thick enough piece of metal such that it can store enough heat to deliver that heat wall up to your crust. And that is the idea of the steel as opposed to the stone, right? And clearly it's more versatile, but I just haven't really had an opportunity to use it because by the time that had come
+
+[23:08] out, I'd already invested in a bunch of stone and I cooked a bunch of them, but I have one now. I haven't really used it yet. I going to see whether or not I like it when I fire up my oven next time, but, you know, they
+
+[23:18] they did a lot of testing and they have a lot of testimonials around it, and people are now selling those, uh, those metal uh, things at the, at the houseware store. So, you know, clearly, clearly it must have some efficacy. Yeah, um, sounds like it, but I'm wondering if it's too much for, it sounds good for pizza where you want, want it quick
+
+[23:40] and, and, and ban to, to, to deliver all that heat, but I'm wondering if for bread, it might be too much, and it would, uh,
+
+[23:47] would, which are the bottom, do you think? I don't know. You know, I don't think it'll char the bottom because it's never going to reheat up over the top of your initial of your oven temperature. So, you know, if you're, if you have, you know, depending on how you cook, how you bake, you know, if you,
+
+[24:01] uh, you know, if you use a ramping temperature. So if you're one of those people that starts a little bit higher and then ramps down a little bit,
+
+[24:08] the stone will never I mean, the metal will never heat above your oven temperature. Do you know what I'm saying? What it will do is deliver that initial oven temperature for
+
+[24:19] longer to the bottom of your crust than any other technique will.
+
+[24:25] A stone will deliver a more, will deliver heat for longer, but once it's depleted, will not heat back up to oven temperatures as quickly or at
+
+[24:36] all. You know what I mean? Right, right. Okay, this has been really, really helpful. Um, I'll, I'll let you know what I end up going, going with and and see what happens. All right, cool. Let us know. All right. Thanks. Have a good week. bye Are you too. Bye. Thomas Voe wrote in at Cooking Issues. Clarifying with Agar. Agar, my favorite clarification seaweed. You ever notice Agar is like the one thing where like we say Agar, but like a lot of people technically say Agar, Agar, like they say it twice. The hydrocolloid's so nice. They named it twice. Agar, Agar. Stas hates working with Agar, don't you? I do. I do. Remember that time we had to do all that grapefruit and we did a freestyle on it and then it didn't work? And so then we had to do, we had to, we had to do like quick
+
+[25:20] Agar on like gallons and gallons and gallons and gallons of grapefruit. And then we were spinning that sucker in the centrifuge and trying to pour it off. And then we kept on having to re-spin it to get yield because our yield wasn't good
+
+[25:31] enough and we needed to get that crap out and we had that event. Yeah. And you remember, what do you say to me? I'm never doing this again. I believe that's what starts. It's like 3 years ago. Yeah, you're like, I'm never doing this again. Yeah. You're like, as for clarification, Dave. Not me. I won't do it. You don't mind SPL, though. You would do Justino. Yeah, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Okay. Clarifying with Agar, juice has a funny medicinal taste, post-clarify. Is this normal from Agar, any brand name recommendations? Thanks. Well, I only use telephone brand Agar. Actually, that's true. I do only use telephone brand Agar. But that's because you can buy telephone brand Agar from grocery
+
+[26:13] stores, like Asian grocery stores. Now I have that. Oh my gosh, I have that Spotify, the news thing going on my head, Asian grocery store. Anyways, the, uh, but the thing is, uh, you know, you can use any
+
+[26:24] Agar, as long as you get used to it, I wouldn't use the prehydrated ones or the ones that don't require boiling because although I haven't used them, I know friends of mine who've had bad luck with them.
+
+[26:33] The, I've never had an off taste for Agar, to be honest. What I would do is taste your, literally taste the agar powder and see whether or not you're getting any sort of off taste. What I think is happening is this. The taste of juices changes sometimes quite
+
+[26:51] radically when you clarify them. So what's most likely happening, because you don't specify what kind of juice that you're using, is that there are some flavor, that this medicinal flavor was present already in the juice, but was being masked by another flavor that was removed by clearly a better flavor,
+
+[27:14] that was removed by the agar. So just to give you an idea, when you agar clarify orange juice, the remaining orange juice, tastes, the clarified stuff tastes like
+
+[27:25] Sunny D, right? So if you like Sunny D, then I guess that's good, but, you know, most people want orange juice to taste like orange juice and not like, I actually haven't
+
+[27:34] decided, I think it tastes more like Sunny D than like Tang. Have you tasted his dust? Did you drink tang growing up? No. What about Sunny D? Do you like Sunny D? Because you grew up with it. Yeah. So anyways, so that's my feeling. So when you clarify, grapefruit juice with Agar. Um, it appears to get much sweeter. It's not actually getting sweeter. It's just an orringian and some of the bitter components have been stripped from it by the agar. So my guess is that it's not the brand of Agar you're using. It's the fact that there's flavors getting stripped out of it. But I could be wrong. Taste, taste the agar. I'm a big believer in tasting a lot of these things at least once to see kind of what's going on. And some hydrocoloids definitely do add a flavor to it. But think about it. When you're clarifying with Agar, you're adding 2 grams per liter. That's two tenths of one% of Agar. Uh, and you could add, you know,
+
+[28:27] 2 grams of straight acid, for instance, wouldn't change, uh, wouldn't make a liter of product that acidic.
+
+[28:37] You know what I mean? Lime juice for reference is around 6% acidity. And this is too tenths of one% or 10 times 30 times less acid that's in lime juice.
+
+[28:47] It's the equivalent of putting one ounce of lime juice into a liter of liquid. anyway. So I doubt that, and that's a very strong asset. So I'm doubting that you're getting the flavor transfer off it, but I could be wrong. Things like methocell. You stand tend to start tasting once the percentages get, you know, up into the one% range, things like this, you know, eight tenths of a percent or one%, things like
+
+[29:11] guar, which can have a very beanie taste. If you don't get the good one, Uh, fracking guar. Uh, it, you know, that can have a beanie taste that you can taste when you get over about half a percent,
+
+[29:22] but, um, not Agar. haven't had a problem with it. Oh, unless you're using those weird, like, unpurified, like,
+
+[29:29] Agar flakelets, which might have, God knows what kind of, like, seaweed residue left in them. just make sure you're buying the powder, the powder. Uh, white powder. Should we take a break? We'll take a break, come back back with cooking issues.
+
+[30:34] Heritage Foods USA is proud to announce our Heritage Rare Breed Chicken Rotation. We've partnered with Frank Reese, the country's preeminent poultry farmer, to create an alternative market for non-industry bred chicken and show our customers what real chicken tastes like. Frank's chickens look and taste different from commodity poultry. They have not been genetically manipulated or pumped with antibiotics to increase their growth rate. Frank breeds and hatches his own birds so he can guarantee the finest animal welfare from start to
+
+[31:09] finish. Every 3 months, Heritage Foods USA will offer a new, rare breed of chicken on our
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+[31:15] website, and at the Heritage Meat Shop. Our inaugural variety is the Colombian Wyandot. These birds are good for frying and are sought after for their fine texture, taste, and
+
+[31:27] healthy, liquid, fine yellow fat. Heritage Foods USA is the only place you can taste these special heritage birds. Order today at heritagefoodsusa.com. Fine yellow fat. Back with cooking issues. one excited you, huh? Yeah. Well, good. Anytime you got banjo music, banjo music's the best. I thought it was the chickens that excited. Well, it's chickens plus banjos. How do you beat chickens plus banjos, especially coming off of a cockfighting bust? Impossible. Hey, Dave, by the way, we were at the Eat Drink Bloody Mary competition again this year. Oh yeah? And I enjoyed the Booker Index kind of, was it, pineapple curry? This is a wacky Bloody Mary you guys had there. Did you like it? I liked it. Our bartender, our bartender, Austin, that that was his creation. The only thing I helped them with is they were having some problem in the mid-palates. I had him put a little tomato paste in to round out the mid palate. But, yeah, it did not win. I heard it did not win. Who won? Uh, the, the judge's choice went to Dover, and then the people's choice went to extra fancy, which was like, it's funny, the people's choice went to the the most classic kind of standard Bloody Mary. And I was like, of course, of course. Where does the line sit, you know, like when does what you're making cease to be a Bloody Mary? Or for that matter, any classic cocktail, right? Look, like, like, the thing is, is anything that you do, if you're going to do classic, you know, you're going to, you're going to do
+
+[32:52] classic. when people want the crap that they're that they're used to. That's why like every year, like last year, you know, we did the, we did the tomato soup with the, with this grilled cheese sandwich, um,
+
+[33:03] for, for the Bloody Mary. And people in general want, you know, they want what they want,
+
+[33:10] but they, what they, what they're used to. It's kind of sad, but like unless they're specifically going someplace to have it reinvented, people in general just kind of
+
+[33:18] want the one that won, the judge's choice, was it wildly different? It was pretty different. What was it? It had some kind of weird spices in it. I don't there were a lot to taste. I remember it being one of the funkier ones though. But I mean, it's like, is it even a Bloody Mary anymore at that point, you know? Well, I mean, these contests, right? Like, here's the thing. Look, let's say you were gonna make a contest. People in general, they like a good store. This is contest now. They like a good story and you have to reinvent it. Otherwise, what's the point? Like, it's not about, let's get let's get 5 people in the room will all make the same daiquiri
+
+[33:56] specs, and you'll see who makes the best daiquiri. You know what I mean? Bloody Mary is a good one for people because everyone has their own. It's kind of like barbecue sauce. Everyone has like, they're like, well, my barbecue sauce, exactly how much brown sugar and
+
+[34:09] and, you know, other stuff and do I put in, you know, whatever, molasses, whatever, vinegar. It's like because they're all roughly same, but people are like, you know, violently proud of their particular mix of the same ingredients that the next fella
+
+[34:24] uses. Or they're like, I add this one special ingredient that makes mine radically
+
+[34:28] different. It's not really radically different. They're all fairly similar. You know what I mean? And so when in contests like that, there's kind of different ways you can
+
+[34:36] go in a Bloody Mary contest, there's the radical difference idea and then there's, you know, where you take, hey, I'm doing a spicy tomato-based
+
+[34:43] cocktail. Now, where can I go with that? that totally different, you know? Or you could say, I'm going to go, you know, with a very similar concept, but then I'm going to add like my special pickle to it. I'm making little quotes fingers. And that's another way to, you know, that's another way to kind of handle these contests. In general, someone who does something that has a flavor profile fairly similar
+
+[35:05] to what people are used to tends to win. Uh, you know, if you have like a little bit of, like, you know,
+
+[35:14] flare added to it, like, great. But, um, at least that's been my been my experience. Yeah, funny to see, like, I don't like Bloody Mary. So all the ones that I was voting for were the ones that didn't taste like Bloody Mary's. Wow. You don't like Bloody Mary's? are you having as a Bloody Mary? I don't know. It's like a meal. Like to me. Like a meal. Yeah. Besides, you like bloody Mary's? Not really. Right? For real? Is it because you don't like, what don't you like about them? It's like a meal. Just heavy. Yeah. I mean, I hate most kind of gloopy, uh, gloopy drinks, but that's the one that gets a pass for me. I don't like, I'm part of this new thing that we're all starting where you don't have to eat them at night. I don't think you necessarily need to have the, the, the, I mean, sorry, in the morning. I think you can have one at night, even though we started the bar with uh, with a drink called um, Lady of the Night, which was a Bloody Mary that was clarified so that you could drink it at
+
+[36:15] night. I think you could drink it during the day. Let's not forget, someone asked me this the other day. And, you know, I remember when I was a kid, you weren't supposed to have gin and tonics in the
+
+[36:24] wintertime. It was summertime only. It was the equivalent of where, which is the, which is the uh, holiday that ends the uh, summer stars. Is it labor? Labor Day? You know how you're not supposed to wear white after Labor Day? Anyone remember this? Yeah. Yeah. So it was the same way with gin and tonics. You weren't supposed to order gin and tonic after Labor Day either. It's kind of when you can wear white is when you can also order gin and tonic, right? I mean, I never wear white, but the, the, that's the point. But that taboo is gone. I mean, no one has a stigma now walking into a bar and ordering a gin and tonic any time of year. People don't even think of it as a seasonal drink anymore. And so I think the Bloody Mary might be going that way where it's not only seen as, you know, kind of
+
+[37:05] a morning thing. I mean, think when you think about it, people can order a corpse survivor whenever they want. A corpse survivor is meant to be a little hair of the dog that bit you for like heavily alcohol infused people in the morning.
+
+[37:16] Anyway. Wait, Jack, we got a caller? Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's me, Don Lee. Hey, Don Lee. I'm calling in to remind you that you are bar backing for us on Sunday at a
+
+[37:28] MoFed fundraiser at the Golden Cadillac. That is true. That is true. From what time? 5 p.m. to. 5 p.m. until 7 p.m. We going to do $8 cocktails, courtesy of Perno Ricard, and all proceeds will be going to the Museum of Food and
+
+[37:43] Drink. Are we getting, uh, are we getting Missy Elliott to recut, uh, get your freak on with get your drink on for that or is that later? I think that's going to be the next fundraiser. next fundraiser? Get your peek on. Get your drink on. That'd be great though, right? Yeah, this time you get to come harass me and John Deragon bartending together for the 1st time in 3 years, and he's going to make some Malibu drinks. I'm going to make some cluid drinks and we're going to, you know, we're going to apply molecules to make a bad cocktails taste good. Oh sweet, sweet. Well, you know, I hate molecules. I don't like them because I don't like matter. I don't like existence. So I detest all forms of molecules. But what was the last time, what was it 3 years ago? What did you guys do 3 years ago? We were at a PDP. We opened PDT together. That was only 3 years ago? That was, well, we opened PDP 5 years ago. That was only 5 years ago? Yeah. Can you believe that? That was only 5 years ago. It seems like 8 lifetimes ago. Yep. So yeah, Don Lee and John Daragon were the opening team at PDT and brought you such drinks as the Bentons, what was it,
+
+[38:41] Bentons? What do you call that drink? Benton's old fashioned. Yeah, with the with the fat washed, uh, the fat washed, uh, With the fat washed bourbon. Benton's bacon into 4 roses yellow label. And for the record, you're allowed to totally do bacon infuse whatever you want. I'm not going to give you shit about that. No, but I'm not, I will never do it. I won't, like you guys own that. It's like, in fact, in the cocktail book, like the, the Maria made me put a fat washed, uh, that's my editor. made me put a fat wash drink in. And so I did a take on, Do you remember, you know, Tona Palomino, who was a WD 50 is now doing bar in Chicago? He had a drink on the menu at WD called Old School back in like
+
+[39:19] 07. And old school was fat washed, what's it called? What's that stuff called? Peanut butter. But it was, uh, he did it enfourage style. He would like spread a thin layer of peanut butter on the bottom of a hotel pan and then pour the stuff on top and then they would let it sit in the fridge forever because he was going to carbonate it so he couldn't he couldn't mix it in because because peanut butter has a lot of stuff that dissolves into liquid and
+
+[39:44] doesn't doesn't cap out the way bacon does, right? And so, uh, yeah, so he did that and then he would mix in uh, Welch's grape jelly and then carbonate it, which is awesome, right? So I did I did a take on that one because I figured, you know, PB and J. And so many other people have ripped on the, on the bacon thing that like, you know, I could, I couldn't add like another,
+
+[40:04] there was, there was no places left on the page to tear. I couldn't rip on it anymore. You know what I mean? Uh, so anyway, but yeah, so for those of you, uh, you know, you should come and the reteemed original PDT team,
+
+[40:17] OGPDT, right? Don Lee, for those of you that, uh, don't keep track of Don Lee's career, as I'm sure most of you do, uh, is now uh, doing the bar
+
+[40:27] program, was, is it cocktail kingdom, uh, but is now doing the bar program. Is that temporary or is that permanent? It's permanent. And so I'm still a cocktail kingdom and then I'm also doing Golden Cadillac. No, I mean Golden Cadillac. permanent bar program or that's temporary? Permanent bar program. Okay. So Donnelly is now running the bar program at Golden Cadillac, which is a fine bar on 1st and 1st here
+
+[40:45] in, it's the easiest address to remember in the world. 1st and first. I couldn't remember what the street was. First and first, Golden Cadillac, and you got the awesome menus with
+
+[40:55] like the really poorly done 70s style cutouts of the drinks on the back. I like that. We're trying to keep it classy. It's totally, totally classy. You can go there and get an overproof daiquiri with telling the garnish down. A disco ball. the disco daiquiri. Yeah, I have I have a couple of those. They're a little, you shouldn't. can you, like, in the future, there, I think they're key rings, right? Can you get them instead with, um, with like those, uh, those cheap earrings settings on them so
+
+[41:21] that, so that the people can wear them as earrings on the way out? Well, we're going to get the new, instead of being the regular key ring. We're getting the key ring that's more like a carabiner, so they'll just clip on the side, so you can clip it onto whatever you want. Oh, nice. All right. I'll have to come back and get some more get some more stuff. So come to the Golden Cadillac on 1st and 1st on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, where I will be plying my
+
+[41:42] bar back skills between 5 and 7 p.m. for the museum of food and drink,
+
+[41:47] bar backing for the great John Daragon and Don Lee. Right? Sounds great. All right, dude. All right, brother. Anything else or just doing some business? Uh, I got I got one other thing to chime in on last week's uh, podcast or a show that you guys did. Uh, since you give away all your great secrets. I'll give you one of my secrets. For the person who wanted to know how to get to the different science resources and on the
+
+[42:10] internets that are behind a paywall. Oh, yeah, okay, good. Yeah, okay, good. So if you are part of a major city library system like the New York public library or, you know, Los Angeles Public Library, any of these big city ones, they usually have a sharing system with
+
+[42:23] the university library. So you can usually request a book from a university library and they'll just send it to your local library so you can borrow it for some fixed amount of time. However, if there is a reference book that the library that at the university does not lend out, they will give you a one
+
+[42:38] time, one day pass to go into the university library to see the reference book. So most science, um, journals are considered a reference book, and so they're not lent out. But if you look up on any university library system, you know, let's say NYU or Columbia, for example, here in New York City, through the New York
+
+[42:57] public library system, they will carry all the journals, probably not even physical form, probably in digital
+
+[43:02] form. But if you get the one time pass, once you're in the library, now you're behind the paywall, now you can do whatever you want, you know, what I do is just go in for a day, scrape every article I can, follow all the links, all the different
+
+[43:14] references, and then I'll just read them in my spare time later. Strong advice from Don Lee. Also, by the way, Don and, well, even John and his current life are kind of, like, computer data nerds. Am I right about this? Former life. pulling me back in. Pulling you back in. But that's why that's why you should, well, I'm, I'm, I'm giving that as reason why they should know the tip. And by the way, Don Lee, a tip from Don Lee is a
+
+[43:41] guarantee, because the man always, like, whenever there's a question and, like, you need some sort of hookup, you just ask
+
+[43:49] Don, because he's already figured the hookup. Am I right? You know, I'm prepared for the zombie apocalypse. Yeah, dude, this is one of the things that you guys have to know about Don Lee. If I could give you one piece of advice on this podcast, is make friends with Don Lee, seriously. All right, Don, I'll see you on Sunday, brother. See you soon All right. Okay, so we had a question in from Paris, France. Two or 3 weeks ago, you had 2 separate questions on one, vegetable can soup that has to be heated for a lot of pasteurization, which affects the flavor, and two, how beer and soda cans are better at keeping the carbonation than plastic bottles
+
+[44:21] are. But doesn't soda canning require both cold temperatures to preserve carbonations and the same level of hygiene pasteurization as
+
+[44:28] soup. I didn't do answer this question already? Okay. In that case, would it be possible to can vegetable soup at a low enough temperature so that we don't kill the flavors and respect appropriate food safety procedures? Do I miss some fundamental differences into 2 type of processes, best and keep up the good works, Stan B? Yeah, yes, very, very different. Here's the deal. So, um, when you are, when you have
+
+[44:52] a, a beer, uh, and soda, right, and a can, there, anytime you have, uh, soda, uh, the carbonation in the soda is acting to do the vast majority of the work when it comes to, um, when it comes to killing off bacteria, because carbon dioxide is extremely
+
+[45:16] bacteriostatic, right? So, in addition to that, a lot of times old school sodas that can't be pasteurized at all,
+
+[45:23] have, bends a little bit of sodium benzoate added to it, sometimes potassium
+
+[45:29] sorbet, and they're added as preservatives primarily not to stop dangerous things from growing because ain't nothing dangerous going to grow inside of
+
+[45:36] that because of the carbon dioxide. But to prevent yeast from growing and converting the sugar to alcohol and causing the flavors of the thing to go off, right? That's the primary function. And that's why you pasteurize products, like sodas and whatnot. But you don't have to do a sterilization on
+
+[45:55] soda, or on a beer, the same way you would have to, so you don't have to go to the same high pressures or
+
+[46:02] temperatures, which are related to pressure. You don't have to go to the same high temperatures on a beer because it's enough to kill the yeast,
+
+[46:10] right? Because you're not really worried about the bacteria, but to kill the yeast and any vegetative stuff because no spores are going to generate inside of the product. Now, spools, the spools. But on the other hand, if you have soup, right, you need to heat it to a high enough temperature, canning temperatures so that you can get everything in there dead because you're going to keep it
+
+[46:33] at on shelf temperature for God knows how long and you can't have nasty anaerobic things growing inside of there, like botulism, which could cause the cans to blow up and whatnot and kill you. You know, the can blow it up. That's what I'm worried about first. The camp blowing up. No, kill you. Uh, so in general, so does our acidic, which is going to prevent things like that from happening
+
+[46:53] and um, fill with carbon dioxide, which definitely is going to prevent things like that happening. So they're fundamentally, um, they're fundamentally uh, different for pasteurization problem from uh, the soup. Yeah? Yeah. All right. I was like, I got some more questions in on of the Twitter. Where is it? Where is it? Oh, so this from EC North America. By the way, they now go just by EC, not EC or ISI. They just launched the rapid infusion kit that, uh, they say, they say new EC rapid infusion kit just launched, inspired by the creator, brainchild of rapid infusion at cooking issues, and they
+
+[47:34] send a Twitter feed out of it. Let's see what it looks like. You want to see what it looks like? I was like, nah, nah, don't really care. Nah. No. inspired. Oh, my gosh. you're gonna take the look of it. take a look at stats. You can't see it on the line, but we can post a picture of it. Does the little rubber thing freak you out a little bit? Yeah. I mean, you know, I love the I love the EC, but it's looking a little bit like a sex toy there. Jack, you got to look that up and throw that up on our thing. Last week, we had a question and for some reason, I can't find my old questions. But we had a question on parchment paper and talking about parchment paper and kind of what it is and what's the difference between all the different kinds of parchment paper.
+
+[48:11] So I'll talk a little bit about that now. The thing about parchment papers is a lot of people, and no one probably who no one will know. Remember that? That was a no one will know that's a psychic friends network, but who did that? That was Jay Moore who did the Psychic Friends Network, pretending to be Christopher Walken. And Travis, my brother-in-law is shooting the, the, you know, the cocktail book. He, uh, he started saying that to me over and over again. So now, like, whenever anyone says that, we, we, I love, like, how many times in my life, do we imitate the fake imitation of somebody else, right? So I'm not even doing Christopher Walken. I'm doing Jay Moore doing Christopher Walken. Christopher Walken. Todd Bridges can be at your house, in your driveway, no one will know. Uh, the theory of that was that a bunch of whack jobs. Todd Ridges actually was a nice guy. I met him. Remember we did that show that time? They were having me doing about safety or something like this and low temp, meat glue and safety. Remember when that big thing was going around and everyone was worried about it? And we did some show. Fox or something like this and Todd Bridges was on. Sweet dude. Sweet dude. Todd Bridges, Willis, by the way, for those of you that don't remember the good, the different strokes. You watch different strokes? No. Really? Not at all? Nope. What about you, Jack? Sorry, no, I don't. What the hell? Like, like, I feel like, you guys had entirely different childhoods from the than the one I had. Anyway. So, uh, partially. So a lot of people mistake, uh, wax paper for parchment. You guys don't make that mistake. You would never make that mistake, right? If I ask you for parchment paper, you'd never show up with wax paper, right? Because coated with what? Wax, wax. Parsion paper is meant to cook with wax paper is great. I love wax paper. I can't tell you how many people confuse wax paper and parchment, which is ridiculous. The other one, you know what people do? People are like, tonic water doesn't have any sugar in it because it's like salsa, right? Wrong. tonic water has as much sugar in it as a regular soda does as much. around 10% sugar. You ever make that mistakes out? You never made that mistake. Jack, would you ever make that mistake? No. No. They're like, I'm not going to say it. they said, I don't want to deal with it. So, most parsion paper that you buy nowadays, and by that, I mean, I buy Reynolds brand, typically, is coated with silicone. And that's really where a lot of the non-stickness of it comes from. Now, what I don't know about parchment paper. I wasn't able to do anything kind of big on it is that I would use parchment paper on my pizzas all the time. The only issue is, is that my pizza oven would get well above the decomposition temperatures of
+
+[50:45] silicone. And so I'm wondering whether or not it was actually kind of a bad idea to put the
+
+[50:50] partial paper into a place where it's going to get, you know, fundamentally incinerated. It used to be if I didn't cut. I would have to cut the partial paper all around the pizza dough and load it in because the stuff around the sides would catch on
+
+[51:01] fire otherwise. You know, the stuff right underneath the pizza had the pizza protected, so it's not going to get
+
+[51:05] burnt and it separates great. But the separate separates great. What about I? I'm speaking, it separates well. But the, it's great. Uh, but the uh, uh, so it's the silicone, the silicone impregnated silicone that has at
+
+[51:17] work. All the parsing papers that I use have that silicone. There's a new partion paper out there that has aluminum bonded to one side of it. So it's aluminum foil on one side and parsion on the other, and it's sold as baking pan liners, and theoretical advantage of it is it lays a lot flatter than parsion paper does. But I can't really tell you whether, whether, you know, how awesome it is. I used it and all I noted was that it was a lot more expensive than the other stuff. But in general, I'm a big fan of parchment paper, and I hope that helps a little a bit. Okay, I found my other questions from last week. William McGee wrote in. I't answer about French fry cutters, did I? William McGee wrote in and said, do you have any recommendations for French fry cutters for home use? I've seen models both horizontal and vertical. Also, on the Kickstarter for this year is all. You had a recipe book available to higher level backers. Will you have this recipe book available separately at a later date for purchase? Thanks, William McGee, Stas, will we? Yes. You've made that up? Yes. Yes. Okay. So French fry cutters. I here's the deal. Avoid any plastic French fry cutter. Just avoid them, because why? They're going to break. They are useless, right? Uh, the French fry cutter that I use. Uh, looks horror looks is the one that's kind of vertically mounted. I use it horizontally unmounted because I haven't had a place to mount my French fry cutter in years. Um, But I like that, I like that style, the vertical mounted style with
+
+[52:48] the with the thing in the front that looks like, uh, what does it look like? It hard to describe. It's got like a swoopy handle. You've seen my French recorder, right? It's got a swoopy handle, and it's made, that's made of cast metal, and then the whole thing's bolted together with, I think, 38 inch screws, and holds the cutting plate in the front, and there's like a
+
+[53:04] V-shaped, like kind of sliding chute, and then a plunger on
+
+[53:10] it. The plunger actually engages the blades, right? And you need to replace the blades every once in a while because they get they get dull. But I use that thing and I can slam through... Now,
+
+[53:22] see, I can slam through £10 of potatoes with it in like 2.5 , 3 minutes,
+
+[53:28] like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Now the best, the best, is to have it mounted on a wall, right? Here's what you do. You have it mounted on a wall, and then you have your peeled potatoes in one container, like a hotel pan full of
+
+[53:42] water, and then you have a hotel pan of water directly underneath the French fry cutter. And this is why the wall mounted one is great. You have it directly underneath it, and then you load the potatoes and you cut them directly into the water. bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, and it stops you from getting a lot of discoloration, right? In between the cutting time, or if you're going to do a soap before you cook them, between the cutting time, and
+
+[54:03] the and doing the initial water blanch, assuming you do a water blanch, I'm assuming you do. Uh, you know, also, as they make different size cutters, but I've never used a shoestring one. I use 38s or slightly larger half inch cutting rings for mine. I have 2 plates for mine. Anyways, so cutting into water like that is fantastic and it's so neat. It means there's so little mess, right? So typical my whole French fry production. for the cutting standpoint is, put them in the sink, fill the sink with water, throw the potatoes in, stir them around with my hands, knock off all of the loose dirt, you know, roll them around in there, pull, pull the, pull the plug, get a hotel pan, peel, you know, peel over a
+
+[54:44] bowl with some, with some running water, rinse it off, throw them into water. Now they're peeled and you've made sure you've gotten all of the, the reason to peel your fries, by the way, 2 reasons. I know it's nutritionally a bad idea to peel fries. Do you peel your stuff before you make fries? You don't like fries. forget you. Do you like baked potatoes? Anyway. So I like the taste of the skin. right? But when you're doing French fries. The skin kind of never gets as crunchy as the rest of the stuff. I mean, I like I like them jacketed fries, but I like potato skins that have been cooked super crunchy. The other problem is, is that potatoes, I don't know what the potatoes you guys get, but potatoes I get potatoes. The potatoes that I get always have some, like some bad spots underneath, you can't see. And commercially, what they do is they spray potatoes with high pressure water and it eats away all the soft parts. But I hate getting those. So when you peel them, you can see them. Jack, what's your feeling? skin on or skin off the skin on. Ah, man. Jesus. Uh, but why? Because you like the taste of the skins. You know they're not as crunchy. You realize they're not as crunchy. And that's okay. okay with it. Yeah, I like the taste. Yeah? Prove me wrong. The taste, the taste. No, I understand why you did it. By the way, I'm doing today's show in chaps, chaps, chaps. I'm wearing cow chaps. I'm going to steal these suckers, Jack. Yeah, I think you should. Yeah. So anyway, so you take the potatoes and you now you have them in water in a hotel pan and they're not turning to crap. They're not turning anything because they're in water and it's getting the last, it's getting the starch off the outside and it's getting the last of the dirt off thing to the bottom. Then your next hotel pan, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, cut them right into it and you get going that way. Otherwise, it gets messy and things get everywhere and it's a pain in the butt. That the best way to do it. So I would go with the one that's meant to be mounted vertically. If you cannot mount it for some reason, like you don't have the space, I still use that style, but you have to develop a certain, uh, there's a certain skill to using that thing, uh, when it's not
+
+[56:38] mounted because it's a pain in the butt. It involves like holding the handle and then holding the base in such a way that you don't grip yourself and jerking forward and back at the same time and pounding the potatoes out.
+
+[56:48] And I've gotten so used to it that it doesn't really slow me down to not have it mounted, but, you know, I'm hoping to mount it in my
+
+[56:54] new, my new joint. I haven't mounted it yet. It's still in the drawer, but I love it. I love cutting french fries and I love french fries. You know what's nice? Of all the things, biscuits and whatnot, French fries might be the weirdest thing that you don't like, you know? I already answered Paul's question on which curious cook one to buy, right? Yep. All right. See that right? Well, actually I'm about to get kicked off the... Hey, before we close the show, I want to put an open call out for another theme song. I think it's that time. All right. It's been a while. Did I answer last week, Rodney's question on coconut flour or not? don't think so. I have time or not? Not really. Oh man. Unless you can go to it in 2 minutes. All right, I'm going to do in 2 minutes. Rodney, Rodney, here we go. This is Rodney from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. In a low-car period of my life. I purchased a bunch of coconut flour. It's not really flour, and I'm glad you're done with your low carb period. I've been trying for a while to make crepes with it, but I have not succeeded so far. Crape batter with 50% wheat flour and 50% coconut flour works, but anything over that fails. The coconut flour simply can't hold together, and I'm unable to even flip it without tearing the crepe. I'd like to make crapes with just a coconut flour. The composition of the coconut flour is as follows. then you give me the moisture 3.6, as 3.one, fat 10.9 protein, 12.one, and then balance carbs. So it contains almost no gluten, almost no starch, plus it absorbs very large amounts of water. My theory is that the carbohydrated protein network cannot be formed because there's 2 little starch and no gluten at all. I'm tribe adding, pure gluten, Xanthan gum, and more eggs, not all at the same time, but to no avail. Do you have any theories? Thanks a lot. Yeah, coconut flour doesn't work the same way a normal coconut flour does. coconut does. I would if you want to cook with coconut flowers. There's a bunch of books available specifically for coconut flour. I dont own them, but you can check out cooking with coconut flour, a delicious low-carb gluten-free alternative to wheat, a paperback by Bruce Fife that you can get on the Amazon. And he's like the, he's the head of like the coconut institute and he does everything with coconut. But I looked up a bunch of, and you look on Rob's, Bob's Red Mill? What it called? You know what I'm talking about? Bob's Red Mill. He has a bunch of coconut flour recipes, and a video on coconut flour recipe, but having looked up a bunch of them on the thing. stuff just doesn't hold together. So they recommend normally only subbing in about 20% to a normal recipe. If you want to go ahead and use only coconut flour. What they're fundamentally doing is making things that are eggs. It's just eggs. It's like set egg loaves, and the coconut flour is just there to make it not taste like eggs, and to give it the feeling that it's made like a normal baked good. So if you want to do crepes, or crepe style thing, what I would do is this. I would whip up egg whites into a meringue, fold the coconut flour into
+
+[59:24] it, and then if you, or and then if you need to, or maybe do this. If you wanted a little bit denser, I would mix the egg yolks in with the coconut flour, whip the egg whites to soft peaks, stir them in quickly, and then pour them out, and bake them like that, and see if it
+
+[59:38] works, because everything that I've read relies on ridiculous amounts of
+
+[59:42] eggs. Cooking issues.
+
+[59:50] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and
+
+[0:07] international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Ishes coming to you live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, and Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly one o'clock.
+
+[0:43] Stas, how you doing? Good. And I forgot to say that I was joined by you because I just said hello instead. You like that better? Don't care. Don't care? No. We didn't get any new submissions for songs, Jack. Yeah, no. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth, both, by the way, accomplish musicians. Whoa, wow, wow. There it is. The call's been open. So, I mean, let's put it at the top of the show here. Maybe maybe people pay attention more. We need a new theme song. Listen, we like we got. We want to keep all the theme songs, but we want some more. Yeah, I mean, so what were you what were you thinking? I was thinking maybe like, so we have like cocktail jazz, like that, you know, the vicious, vicious vodka kind of redo, right? The fish is fish is vodka. That's, you know, from the cocktail jazz kind of, you know, theory of operation,
+
+[1:27] like Amos Millburn, that kind of stuff. And then, you know, we have a kind of a hardcore version, right? Right? Yep. So, so what do we, what do we make? We don't have country. We don't have a twangy country theme. We could use that. We could use maybe like a hip hop beat theme. Oh, hell yeah. Right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, hell yes. Oh, yeah. But it had to be good hip hop. I know. Either good hip hop or like dumb in a really good way. Right. Like, uh, Lonely Island, good dumb. You know what I mean? Or, like, or, like, actually good. Or actually good. Which is so hard and so hard to get hip hop that's like mostly pops in between. You know what I mean? tough. What about like a club, a club theme song? You mean like, uh, like, like what era? Like house? Like 80s house? Yeah? Or like 90s, like 90s asses stuff like James Brown is dead. Like who's that? That was LA style. Remember LA style? James Brown is dead. We could do something like that. But the problem with them is that they came out with that song when James Brown's still alive. What we really need is like a Hall and Oates type theme. Oh, Hustino, that would be amazing. I, you know, Stas, at any given moment, Stas and I might just break into a
+
+[2:40] hollow note song at any given, any given second, it might happen. You know what I mean? Maybe instead of playing break songs, you guys can just sing Hall and Oates songs on the break. All right, that's not allowed, right? Well, I don't know. It's also a little known fact that I kind of, uh, I have singing Tourette's in that I, uh, kind of involuntarily insert curse words into the middle of songs as I
+
+[3:02] sing them. Mostly the C word. No, I never use that. In songs? I use the F-bombing songs. You're almost just cursed. It was close. Anyway, it's a bad habit. I'm trying to break it. But, you know, that's what it is. But if someone's going to do country, like, uh, I mean, personally, Stas doesn't like country, you know why? Jack and Joe know why? Why? Because she doesn't like stories. No, I swear to God. am I lying about that? only since I started working with you. Because you talk, like, you'll play, he'll play a country song? The same country song over and over, and he'll be like, can you believe that he left his wife or his dog? And I mean, why would he do that? Same, same breakdown. He analyzes these songs, same songs. Oh, 1st of all, like, is that not true? I think some of these songs merit attention. They merit deep reading. Merit attention. What? That's not true. That's not true. hope someone's writing a story theme song for us right now. I hope so too. Look, and you know what? You know, Stas didn't grow up watching TV, so like, you know, we're, oh, yeah? How do you not like a story song? If you grew up watching Gilligan's Island. about the story. Gilligan's Island. analyze it. This is not country. Yes, because it's like the same analyzation. every... Analy, it's not even a word. Not even a word. Analysis every single time. even a word. How can I trust anything you say if you bust out non-words on me? You know? But, like, certain injustices, Jack and Joe, like, they they hit me, so I have to mention them every time. So not country but TV theme songs. You're familiar with the Gilligan's Island theme song? Oh, of course. Yeah. You familiar with the 1st season of Gilligan's Island? I'm probably. I used to watch a lot of reruns as a child of Gilligan's Island. Gilligan was like one of my best friends growing up. I watch that stuff constantly. Yeah, I bought a Gilligan hat because I liked him so much. Nice. Nice. Nice. But anyway, so the 1st season was in black and white, right? And this song, which we all know, you know, at the end, the millionaire and his wife, the movie star, the professor and Mary Ann, you know, here on Gilligan's Isle, right? right? We all know this. The original season it was, was Gilligan, the Skipper 2, the millionaire, and his wife, the movie star, and the rest.
+
+[5:30] And the rest, the rest. There's only 2 of them. Two people. Yeah, the time it takes you to say, Professor
+
+[5:38] and Mary Anne, you could have just said, you know, in the rest, it's like the same thing. They changed it, but I mean, I don't know, it just seems like crappy. Everyone knows Marianne's a hot one. Why didn't she get on it? You know what I mean? Anyways, I like story songs. I like to think about the stories and songs and why people made particular choices, you know, I like Merle Haggard. I mean, how do we get on this? It's all because of the theme song. All right, okay. So, uh, call it your questions too, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128 ps. Someone, I'm not going to go into the full rant because, because I, you know what? my veins will burst burst. I was up, uh, last night, uh, quite late writing. So, uh, Mike, uh, uh, uh,
+
+[6:22] uh, uh, Mike, you got a name? I can't, you know I can't pronounce names, Mike. Mike, F. Strati Adis. That's kind of a nice name. Estratiatis. I hope I got that right. It says, hey, Dave, I was wondering about MSG. Is it safe? What's with all the gloomy posts about it? Mike, Mike, how you do this to me? Go you make me. and listen to old shows. No, stars, that's an absurd. That's absurd. Heritage website and look for MSG specific
+
+[6:49] shows. And then when you hear you rant. okay. going to go into the full rant, Mike. Let me just say, tell you this. I'll give you a couple brief bullet points to use against people who talk about MSG. Most arguments against MSG, either rely on a number of really turd basket studies about the actual purported effects on people. And then there's a lot of hoo-ha, hokum, bad science,
+
+[7:18] about, um, excitatory, uh, neurotoxins.
+
+[7:22] Because if you, it turns out if you inject a lot, you know, MSG into your brain, it's not a good idea. Don't inject anything in your brain, by the way. But, you know, there's a bunch of research that neonatal primates can get brain damage if you give them large amounts of MSG, um, you know, without anything else, and it's because, uh, you know, um, it can cross the blood brain barrier in primates, but not
+
+[7:45] in, in, in humans. In fact, your body produces MSG, your body produces MSG, uh, not MSG, but it's because not monosodium, but it produces, um, uh, it produces glatamic
+
+[7:57] acid in your, in your head, it's used as a, as a, um, neurotransmitter. It's then converted to glutamine and transported back across your blood brain barrier to be
+
+[8:05] extreted. So you're a net producer of it. There's no credible, decent evidence that it's bad for you. You don't consume enough of it for it to cause your blood levels to spike in any way unless you would eat it pure and a large amount of it. And the only decent studies done are double blind control studies where the actual MSG was administered in gel
+
+[8:27] caps that couldn't possibly be detected by taste. And all of those show that there's no problem. And yet, despite all this, Nastasia continues to believe that she has some sort of reaction to it. Sure or false does. Nope, I just don't eat it anymore. What kind of a, what kind of a horse crap is that? Trying to get out of saying here. I just don't need it. I eat it in your snacks. We don't use MSG in the snacks for consumption. We use it in our tests. You only use it in tests. Jesus. No brains. No brains. Stas, no brains. Now, we use it like I use MSG. Piper, when he was with us, brought a lot of MSG. we did it to test snacks because what you do is when you're testing snacks out, you want to test how much kind of umami punch you need to add to the snacks in order to get kind of the flavor level where you want.
+
+[9:19] And then the, the part part is, is that to sell snacks to people, because people are irrational about this, you have to have them be MSG free.
+
+[9:28] So then you have to go back and you have to punch that umami the same amount without using MSG. So typically if you don't want it to taste like, um, uh, kombu or dashi, you, uh, you add things like uh, yeast extracts or, you know, other broken down uh, protein uh, products.
+
+[9:45] Anyways. So there you have it, Mike. My non-rant version of MSG, but I'm sure that Jack can find when I went off on it before. Oh, yeah, that was like the unplugged. Well, I mean, because I was so loud you had to... Yeah, last time you were really getting in. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, so you can't you can't do the same thing. This is what I want to go off on. Someone has to explain this to me. Are you guys shoppers at Subway? The store that sells submarine sandwiches with that bread with that. That's really bad. Yeah, do you go? My kids. I haven't been in years. I told you my kids love it, right? Because they get to customize their sandwich. told you that. Did they tell you their new their new craziness, the new thing? Oh, sriracha? Oh, they have sriracha? No I didn't know that. I mean, everyone's got sriracha. You know, there's a sriracha. a Sriracha documentary, but I haven't seen it yet because you have to buy it. So I have to buy it and look, it's like a half inch documentary in Sriracha, and they interview the guy and he's like, everybody loves my product. I can't help it. If people stop loving my product, maybe I'll stop making it, but everybody loves it. But he doesn't have that accent. Great story. Yeah, it's a good story, right? And one of the PAs gets his eye sprayed with Sriracha in the outtakes, which is hilarious. But anyway, no, not a sriracha. So here's what happens. I guarantee it, because I know how ideation stuff happens in these corporations, because, you know, we've done it a couple of times for people. they're like, listen, guys, this is like, this is the subway, the boardroom or whatever. sitting around the ideation room. They're like, hey, hey guys, listen. We want to sell pizza, but really, we're a sandwich company, right? So we don't really have the, you know, we don't really have the wherewithal to sell pizza to people, right? Because we're a sandwich shop, yeah? So we have to like show, we have to demonstrate something's wrong with a regular pizza or some point of difference so that people will buy our subway style pizzas instead of a real pizza
+
+[11:27] they could get across the street, right? Right? Okay, so, guys, come on. What's wrong with pizzas? Wait, what do you got? Hey, Larry, what do you got? Uh, I don't know, man. too greasy. Yeah, it's a good one. too greasy, too greasy. Hey, Harv, Harv, what do you got? Pizza's a 23 dimensional boss. They're 23 dimensional. That's it. We're going to make a flat pizza. So swear to swear to God, Subway has a new product called flat pizza because they perceived that the problem with pizzas is that they're
+
+[11:57] two, three-dimensional and need to be flattened out. What kind of dope were those dudes smoking when they came up with that idea? Who thinks that a problem with pizza is that it's too freaking flat? And by the way, the image that they have on their freaking advertisements is like a deep dish freaking thing. It's the least flat pizza. You know, they have no mechanism to actually make a flat pizza. They can't make like a cracker crust. They can't do... Fire baked style. What does that even mean? What does that mean? It has no meaning for me. Flat pizza and it doesn't trip off the tongue. It's the worst word for a product, and people, they're 1000000s of dollars involved in this decision. Like, like, many dozens, 100s of people had
+
+[12:45] to, had, like, what kind of ogre runs that company such that no one underneath was like, boss, this idea sucks the royal root.
+
+[12:55] This makes no freaking sense, boss. No one checked them on that. It's Elios, though, basically. I don't even know what it, what's an Elias? You don't know what that is, the frozen flat pizzas. But what do you mean flat? Pizzas are by their nature flat. There's like, it was like, I'm not like, oh, oh, you know what? I'm so sick of these kind of like three-dimensional globe shaped puzzle pizzas that I've been getting recently at the local pizzeria. The thing about flat pizza is that it's the same amount of syllables as flat pizza. It doesn't save you any time. The name. It's bad Yeah, but you know what? They like, hey, boss, we can't trademark flat pizza because it's just the word
+
+[13:33] flat, and the word pizza, and everybody already knows pizza is flat. Well, we can trademark flat pizza. This is genius. The more I think about it. But you know what? How does it do people make 1000000s of dollars doing this? Like, how is this? How is this like, how is this possible? I don't I don't understand it. Someone explained to me an actual valid marketing scheme behind this. Like, I, like, as, uh, was it, what, Barnum said that no one, uh, no one, uh, lost money, uh, underestimating the stupidity of the American
+
+[14:04] public. Is that was that Barnum? I don't agree with that. I agree that we're a good natured people and that we can be reasoned
+
+[14:10] with to prove him wrong. Don't buy a flat pizza. Maybe it tastes delicious. In which case, I don't know, but Jack doesn't think because Jack doesn't like their products, so he doesn't think it tastes delicious. I like their cookies. Oh, you like their cookies? Why the cookies? don't know. You have the option to get like chips or a cookie with your sandwich and I've enjoyed those cookies. Yeah. They're kind of like uh, kind of gooey. Yeah. Yeah. You never had you never had a subway cookies? You ever had a subway sandwich? Yeah? Yeah. I had one literally the other day because my kids were like, we're going to go to Subway, dad. Oh, great. Okay, uh, Timothy Helmuth, uh, writes in, uh, regarding apricots. Hello, Dave Nastasia at all. I've enjoying a lot of delicious sun-dried apricots lately. The really sour ones, so presumably the Blenheims, right? Because those are the ones you get that are sour. Uh, and got to thinking they'd make a great flavor for a soda. They probably would. Any tips on how to extract the flavor of the apricots ideally without using alcohol. I hope to share the finished product with some teetotalers. I'd love to hear your thoughts practical or otherwise, thanks, Timothy. Okay, listen. Uh, So the main question, obviously, is do you have a centerfuge, right? So let's just assume you don't have a centrifuge. You're going to want to go to modernist pantry.com. ModernistPantry.com and get yourself some Pectanex Ultra SPL if you don't already have it. And because what we're going to do is we're going to break down the pectin in the apricot. If you don't, it's going to be like a nightmare. Also, apricots take a long time to rehydrate. I think you remember there was a caller who called in before because they were doing prunes and apricots in a bag and the apricots wouldn't hydrate
+
+[15:48] and the prunes would, takes a while. And my experience has been making alcoholic products with apricots in a centrifuge that I literally have to blend it, spin it, and then blend it again to get like the full flavor of the apricot
+
+[16:02] out just because it's so resistant sometimes to rehydration. So what I would do is I would mix uh, the apricots like um, like uh, maybe start with like 4 to one in water. So, like 100 to 400. You might have to go a little more. You might have to go 100 apricots, 500 water. Get warm water, right? It can even be, it can be make it warm. Take that back. Make it warm. Uh, you know, like body temper thereabouts. Add some enzyme, add like more than I would normally add. Add like 4 grams per liter of Pecninex ultra SPL and blend the hell out of it. So what you're doing here is that the Pectinex is going to start breaking down the internal, uh, you know,
+
+[16:43] the, the, the, the actual structure of the apricot and allow you to extract more of the flavor. It's also going to break down some of the soluble peck. I want to cook it beforehand because then it makes it more resistant, my feeling is, I don't have improved it, but I think it makes it more resistant to the
+
+[16:55] Pectinex. So you're going to be breaking down the products. Then you're going to want to strain that, right, through like a fine strainer. Don't go, Sheen, don't go, what's the word I'm looking for you? Coffee filter on it yet because it's just going to be frustrating. Then reblend the pulp that's left with Pectanex again. and some more water and let it sit for a while to really break down, blend it again, let it break down, strain it out, then put that sucker through a coffee
+
+[17:25] filter, and it should, uh, you should be able to get a product that's clear enough to make a soda out of. If not, you could probably let it settle overnight. Once you've added the
+
+[17:36] pectinex and strain it out, you should be able to let it settle overnight and then rack the stuff off the top. But, I mean, I know I've done it with centrifuges, and it's delicious, but it's just your yields aren't very high on those apricots, uh, unless you do, unless you do that 2nd rewetting, which, which, I call
+
+[17:54] remillage after the French stock technique of rewetting the
+
+[17:59] bones. Yeah? rewriting the bones. Should we take a break? Take a commercial break. Come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[18:17] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[18:38] fete accomplete for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairway Market.com.
+
+[18:55] Hey, guys. We on? Yeah. Hey guys, what's Steve Jenkins? He sounds like some voiceover actor. That's because he was a voiceover actor. Come on. I'm serious. For real. For real. He spent some time doing voiceover work. Maybe, I don't know. I'll have to look up his like his credits. Maybe you heard him somewhere. Or maybe it's just like that voice is like, you know, the man's got a golden voice. Does he do a cheese show for you guys? We profiled him on evolutionaries, which is that really awesome thing we do where we do like radio documentaries on people's lives and tell their stories. He was episode number one. So I recommend that. There's a lot of his voice, and he says some pretty cool stuff talking about like, you know, he used to import illegal cheeses, and the people didn't know any better at the airports because they couldn't read French, and it was all like
+
+[19:39] raw illegal cheeses. I remember that time. And in fact, he used to get really, really angry, whenever someone in the media would point out that New York City, I mean, like virulently
+
+[19:52] angry, when people in the media would point out that cheesemongers in New York were bringing in illegal
+
+[19:59] cheeses because he didn't want the tap to stop flowing. You know what I mean? So he was nervous about it and he was like, can't can't you just shut up and like let me bring in the cheese, you know what I'm saying? That was in the old days. So he doesn't do that anymore. He's too big. been too outed or what? can't speak to that. Ah, I don't know. Yeah. But apparently everything was fake back before him. Even when they were selling things, they called Canne Bear or whatever, it wasn't actually that. Right. Well, you know, look, that, that, I mean, it's hard for, it's hard for people to remember unless they, unless they, you know, think back to it. So I 1st started shopping for with, you know, at Fairway for his chief stuff in, I don't know, I don't know, like the early 90s or
+
+[20:40] mid, mid 90s, I guess, when they moved the fairway, when they 1st created the uptown fairway over in Harlem, where my studio was at the
+
+[20:47] time. And yeah, it was like a revelation. Because, you know, you've been shopping at places that you thought, like, had decent cheeses for years, like
+
+[20:54] Zabars and, um, you know, those kind of joints, and then, uh, they, they really, they really upped the game. You know, it's like people, uh, again, people forget. It was kind of, um, a groundbreaking place to to buy cheese. I didn't live down near, you know, the downtown cheese shop. So my expo, my early exposure to that, that kind of level of cheese stuff was uptown at
+
+[21:14] the, uh, at the fairway. So, yeah, kudos. But he's not like, the voice is not quite, it's not Casey Casem. It's a mix. Like where is it? It's like in the voiceover world. I got to figure out where it is. anyway. Uh, and you're going to look up his uh, his credits. Yeah, I'll see if I can find, I can dig it. We'll see All right. Paul writes in regarding Benzowet. So we're on preservatives and other stuff today, right? Sodium benzoid. It's a good word, isn't it? I would like to hear Alec Baldwin say Benzwood. I bet he'd be awesome at it. Hi, all. I've just been listening to episode 149. Yes, I'm a few weeks behind. You were answering a question about stabilizing fruit juices. And I think I understood that Piper uses benzowate. I think that Piper uses benzoate to prevent microbial growth. I don't recommend doing this because a few years ago. It was shown that benzowit can convert to benzene over time, benzene nasty, by the way, in case you guys don't remember your chemistry. Uh, convert to benzene over time, especially in acidic environments, and especially in the presence of vitamin C. I think Piper was aware of that. I don't know how much bends would he use in his whatever. I know this because I was working at the time at a company that produces food
+
+[22:24] supplements, including a berry extract. And due to regulatory changes, we had to change the preservative that we were using. I was researching alternatives and came across this issue. If my memory serves me correctly, I'm sure it does. The major soft drink manufacturers removed Benzowit from their products when this problem was identified. I did some accelerated tests, incubating at warm temperatures, and found that
+
+[22:44] benzi did in fact form when we added benzowit to the product, the berry product they were making. In the end, we chose sorbet, which chose sorbet, which also avoided the problem that a small proportion of people can taste
+
+[22:58] benzewit. I recommend that benz would not be used in fruit juice applications, or if it is used, that you send samples away for testing, so you can determine if
+
+[23:06] benzene does form over the duration that you keep your products, keep up the great work. Paul, thanks. I love that kind of follow-up. So that's good information. People can take, you know, that's good stuff. Um, We got a Sam right saying, hey, Stas. He says, hey, Nastasia, because that's what you should say. Thanks for answering my questions on the radio show. I now have request. Dave is an undoubted ninja of kitchen ergonomics. I don't know about that, and layout. Could you see if he will post an in-depth photo tour of his home kitchen? Thanks, Sam. Not quite done yet, Sam. When I actually get my uh, when I get my oven customized, maybe, when I get my oven customized. You like my new kitchen better? Yeah, really clean. Yeah, but it's like it's galley. But all my equipment's new. That's why you like it. Yeah. Won't be new for long. Sure I'll ruin it. All right, so Sam, once I get it done, I'll do that. We're getting I'm still changing it. Not quite. It's not quite photo ready yet. Brian writes in from San Diego about Koji, which has been the topic that I've been
+
+[24:10] remiss in getting the information on. had a lot about. Today cooking issues crew. Longtime listener. I don't have a question, but was listening to your show and also wondering about how to make Aspergillis. I can never pronounce it, like Orizi, you know, the rice, the rice base one, the one that they use for Koji. Aspergillis Sports to make Koji. Uh, in case the moment... Whoa, really? I can't say mumbofuku now. In case the Mamafuku people don't get back to you, Dave, I found a couple of resources on the web, which you may or may not already know about, it seems publicly available information on this topic is scarce.
+
+[24:38] Uh, one is, uh, um, uh, tailor-made, uh, ak.org, uh, growing Koji for homebrewing sake. And the other one is, of course, well-known, the Nordicfoodlab.org, their blog, and their thing, Koji History and Process. The Nordic Food Lab, for all you don't know, is a great resource, like, you know, they they do a great job. They document everything they do and they're very open source about information. They don't hide information and they do a lot of work with Koji and they publish it. So I actually went to the tab you sent me and it's it's good. And of course, Shirtleaf, who, you know, as we, anyone who's heard me
+
+[25:15] say knows that I learned, you know, most of what I know about tofu from Shirtleaf, even though
+
+[25:19] he, you know, basically called me a jerk for asking whether I could use Edamame to make
+
+[25:24] tofu. He was like, why would you do that? you're evil. He thinks I'm an evil. Well, in the one phone conversation he had with me, he basically he intimated that he wouldn't want to have dinner with me and that he thought it was a bad
+
+[25:35] human being. I mean, he didn't come out and say it like that, but that's just a vibe I got over the phone. You know what I mean? He's like, why is this Eastern son of a, whatever? He doesn't, he doesn't talk that way. He like all peace and love and whatever. Uh, but anyway, uh, his website, www.soyinfocenter.com, uh, books forward slash 154,
+
+[25:56] History of Koji, um, is there. But I looked up an interesting article. Because the issue is this. Look, everyone knows you can make Koji, you can buy the, you can buy the, you know, the, you know, the
+
+[26:07] Koji candy seeds for it and do it. The question we had a while back was, how do you know if it's safe? And the problem is, is that some strains of Aspergillis, right? um, like flavas and whatnot, can produce uh, Aphletoxin, and Aphletoxin, you know, for those of you that, you know, pay attention to sort of thing you want to stay away from because even minute quantities. It's one of those no known safe kind of exposure things because minute quantities can be like viciously carcinogenic.
+
+[26:35] And so this is why we screen things like peanuts, which can grow alpha toxin
+
+[26:39] for, um, you know, for the growth of it and whatnot. So the question is, why, uh, don't people get poisoned all the time from um, things that are done made with Koji because they're all done with different uh, aspergillis strains. And how is it that you can select for the safe ones uh,
+
+[26:58] in, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, either home, wild or pre, you know, industrial setting, how do you choose to, and make sure that you only get the ones that don't
+
+[27:10] produce afletoxin. So there's a, and a lot of people have taken, done studies and shown that the, um, that
+
+[27:19] Aphletoxin, uh, is not present in products commercially that are produced with uh, Koji molds,
+
+[27:26] right? So, you know, soys and misos and things like that. And a couple of ones have shown that at miso, miso itself is not hospitable for the production of alpha toxin, but it's
+
+[27:36] aged for a long time. So the question you want to know is, how can I guarantee that the mold that I'm growing right now on my
+
+[27:43] coji is safe to use right now, not necessarily in an age product, not necessarily in a secondary product, but how do I guarantee that it's safe in all points of its existence?
+
+[27:53] That's an interesting problem. And as of 2001, which is the last article that I have on it, they hadn't really 100% solved it, but the most interesting article I saw on it was called
+
+[28:04] Affletoxin genes, and the Affletoxinogenic potential. That's a good word, right? I can't I could try that twice. Aphletoxin, whatever, of Koji molds, um, by, um, Oh my god, I can't read my writing on what the person's name was, it broke. It was the last name, BR. Oh, no. Vanderbroke, Vanderbroke, P. Vanderbroke, uh 2001. And it was interesting. So what they said was, is, look, they analyzed a bunch of strains of Aspergillis that they found in various products that
+
+[28:41] have been produced, some kind of artisanal wild fermentation
+
+[28:44] types and some commercial types. They found in that, in that, they found some strains of normal aspergillis
+
+[28:53] oaks. I can't pronounce that. I don't know why it's got a mental block on. I can't do it. that actually had the genes encoded in them to some of the genes encoded in them to produce
+
+[29:03] appletoxin, but did not, in fact, produce appletoxin, which is difficult if you want to make a rapid assay to make sure that there's no appletoxin in it, right? Uh, They also found, um, certain uh,
+
+[29:14] Aspergilis Flavis, uh, uh, molds in there that were afhletoxin producing strains, but they didn't find any afhletoxin.
+
+[29:22] Now, the Nordic food lab has a couple of points on this where they say, look at, uh, you know,
+
+[29:28] the, the, um, Aphletoxin, when it's produced, those strains that produce that tend to inhibit yeast
+
+[29:35] growth. And so people that are doing things like brewing sake, where you have a lot of alcohol involved,
+
+[29:41] the only aspergillis strains that don't produce athletoxin are selected out. So that's how the safety goes. But we're not talking about that because we're not talking about maintaining a culture for, you know, generations. We're talking about a wild thing and how to prove it safe. So here's what's interesting. These guys said, look, we, we, we made a bunch of Koji, and uh, it didn't produce uh, athletoxin, right? So they said, okay, I'm going to take a strain of aspergillis that's known to produce athletoxin. Like one that we bought specifically to produce Aphletoxin. And they, because their thing was, well, maybe this, because like Koji fermentation is solid state fermentation under very particular circumstances for fairly short periods of time.
+
+[30:23] So they said, okay, look it, we're going to put the, uh, we're going to put this known athletoxin generator into a typical Koji production. And lo and behold, it produced like 0 almost, like hypertrace amounts of appletoxin. they're like, hey, that's pretty safe. So they're like, well, maybe it's something about the, the actual substrate that they're, we're growing it on that's stopping at producer. Instead of running it for 24 hours, they ran it for like a week or something like this. And after a week of incubation or a week and a half , then there were measurable and meaningful amounts of appletoxin present. So their conclusion, which I think interesting, is that these strains that can produce athletoxin take longer to start producing the athletoxin in the solid state fermentation that we do in Koji,
+
+[31:09] take longer to produce the athletoxin, then typically they would have to produce it when you're making the Koji. So if you're going to use a while fermentation of Koji, then I wouldn't let that aspect of the fermentation go on longer than, you know, like, you know, the day or so it takes to do it.
+
+[31:26] Uh, and I would read that article because it made for interesting reading, but that's the closest I could get for an answer on how can you
+
+[31:32] guarantee without having, uh, you know, a microbiology lab present, how can you guarantee the safety of any given
+
+[31:39] wild uh, coji that you're making? Do you think that's a good final answer on that? think that's great. You know, whatever. Uh, you know what, you know, you know, you know what? that you need that feedback. You know what, you guys, you know what, you guys don't get? you don't get the look on Stas's face. It's like, it's like, someday I'll be able to describe it. She's like, yeah, great. I know you need the feedback. Yeah, all right. Kyle Kleberg. I like that name, Kleberg. Kleberg, because I like Stanfriedberg. you ever heard of Stanfriedberg? No comedian. From the 50s? He was an advertising guy, like kind of, I guess, pre- maybe pre-madmen. Yeah, pre-Madman era advertising guy who he did a bunch of radio shows. Anyway, for those of you who are history of advertising buffs and like
+
+[32:25] 50s comedians, Stanfriedberg's the man. Anyway, Kyle Kleberg says, hey there, I've got a question for the cooking issues. Our restaurant recently acquired 100 pounds, £100 of
+
+[32:36] high quality spot prawns, and it just owes spot prawns. Do you like spot prawn? you ever have that? It's West Coast, but it's northern. You never hang out up there, right? Like BC and all that stuff. They're supposedly good. you know, we don't get them here. You know, like, at least I don't get him here. Of high quality spot prawns. And as it just so happens about two-thirds of them were carrying eggs. Well, discussing a plan, my chef, in his infinite wisdom, took a ninth pan full of
+
+[33:00] row and toss it into the Vitaprep with a healthy dose of neutral oil to make shrimp oil.
+
+[33:06] As you can imagine. We ended up with about 6 cups of shrimp aioli, yes, because it has eggs. They will emulsify the hell out of stuff. Anyways. So I came to you guys with questions hoping you can help me write this. First, would the eggs of prawns be called row or coral? and secondly, is there a way to purposely break this emotion? break this
+
+[33:28] emotion. And I have a song going to take these broken wings and learn to fly again. Yeah, then? Learn to live so free. Yeah, what is that? That's the that's the song. Blackbird? No. Is that? Learn to fucking learn a list of free, really? I think so. No, no, it's different. It's different. Jack will know. Jack or Joe will know. Anyway. And second, is there a way to purposely break this emulsion and turn it back to an oil of some sort while maintaining the flavor of the raw
+
+[33:53] eggs? If this is a lost cause, I still think I still have some reserve to make the compound butter, which I hope will be a better plan. However, if I've learned a thing from listening to cooking issues, if the things are not always as simple as they seem. Thanks, Kyle Kleberg, uh, the polloose in, uh, what's ID, I wonder? Washington, I understand. Maybe Idaho? Really? Like on the border? Really? I don't know. Okay, so listen, 1st of all, when you say carrying eggs, I'm presuming
+
+[34:21] you meaning on the outside on their swimmerettes. So here's a deal. So Decapod, you know, crustaceans, the way that they, the way that they do their, the way that they do their business, 1st of all, interesting spot prawns, that if you want a little thing about spot
+
+[34:35] prawns, and I got some of this information from it, www.organicocean.com. It's brought, and I can't remember because it's been a long, long time since I've done my, I went through a kick where I read a lot of lobster biology stuff because I was thinking about writing an article for the New York
+
+[34:49] Times and they wanted me to prove that whether or not lobsters could feel
+
+[34:54] pain. I was like, I can't I can't do that. It's not possible. anyway. So I can't remember where the lobsters do this, but spa prawns are cool because they're big and delicious. apparently. But they uh, they change sex. Then they become females, then they do their eggs, and then when they're changing their sex, they're called trannies. How awesome is that? That's what it says according to the website. Anyway, um, so anyway, in Decapod crustaceans, when the females are going to lay the eggs. Typically when you have a lobster and you have what's called the coral. Do you like that? The red stuff when it's cooked out. Yeah. Yeah, when you have the coral, as opposed to the tamale, which is like kind of the gut. You like the tamale? but you like the coral. Okay. Good to know. So, I don't really, okay. I'll lay it out on you. I am not a huge fan of the tamale. Like I can eat a little bit of it, but I don't want to pound that stuff. You know what I mean? You know? No. Anyways, so the coral is the eggs on the inside of the lobster, right? No one, at least not on this coast, eats the, and when
+
+[35:55] I, when you say that the shrimps are carrying eggs, I think you mean on the outside of the shrimp, right? So what happens is, is the lobster, or in this case, the shrimp passes the egg from the inside of its body to the outside, and as it gets passed to the outside, that's when it gets
+
+[36:10] fertilized, and then it glues it to the underside of its body. So when you get a lobster out, a female lobster out of the out of the water, you look at the bottom up. you know, lobsters stay females. They stay freaking females. don't do this weird tranny stuff. Anyways, what am I thinking? So like you turn it over and they're called buried, right? They're not like buried like in the ground, like not like gravod lobster, but like buried like not berry farm. And because they put the eggs all on the underside of their body. Now, lobster folk, when they get buried lobsters are supposed to throw them back, like notch the tail and throw them back because they know that's a producing female,
+
+[36:47] right? And you want to leave the producing females in the water so that they make more lobsters because that's your bread and butter, right? You know? So you never get buried, you get females, but you never get ones that are
+
+[37:00] buried because they throw them back. So, um, so anyways, so I would, I would not call it coral because
+
+[37:07] as far as I know, coral is only when it's on the inside of the animal, since these have made it to the outside and are fertilized, right? Presumably, I don't know whether the fertilization makes them change flavor or texture or what. I have no idea because, you know, I don't have any experience with it. But interesting, these guys at Organic Ocean said. Don't, uh, they said, some spot prawns are brought in from the United States, where they are caught sooner, smaller, and often buried, i.e. before
+
+[37:38] spawning and with eggs attached. One Asian grocer is selling live British Columbia spot prawns, which would have to
+
+[37:45] have been to the United States. The BC season opens later when the prawns have grown to full size and are about to die naturally. So buyer, beware. So organic ocean believes that you, uh, that, you know, they, I guess they lay eggs and then and then, uh, and then they croak. Right? Because it says, uh, they say that a wild BC spot prawns are hermaphroditic, born as males. The female sex organs on their tails become more pronounced at about 2 years of age, at which point they refer to as transitioning prawns or trannies. With the final 2 years of their four-year lifespan sent as females. So they do their spawning and then they're ready to die, so you should take it afterwards. So that's just on whether to call it coral or whether they call it, um, row, I would call it row or eggs. Now, on the breaking of it, You have very few people who want to break this kind of egg
+
+[38:34] emulsion and I wasn't able to find anything offhand that would break
+
+[38:40] it. The only easy thing that I thought you could, you could do 2 things. One, you can add so much oil to it that it, um, that it breaks, right? Because that's one way to break a mayonnaise is to is to stop adding water and to just add enough oil like, you know, 95% so that you actually start breaking the emulsion and you get oil coalescence.
+
+[39:02] That should work, but the problem with that is, is you will be adding so much oil to it that you probably won't have the flavor transfer. The other thing, and you might have already tried this. Um, is you might, because you said, I don't know whether I read it, but, you know, you intimated that you didn't want to heat it because you didn't want to change the flavor, right? Didn't he say that? Did you say that? Yeah. I would freeze it. I would freeze it and then thought and then freeze it and then thought and then freeze it and you thought. And each time you freeze thought, you should be destabilizing that emulsion. And hopefully after one or 2 free thaw cycles, because you haven't added any stabilizers other than the stabilizers naturally present in the prawn eggs,
+
+[39:45] hopefully, it'll break. And then you'll be able to get, you know, and if you have a centrifuge, obviously, I would free saw and then try this interfuse. But that, that should work. And, you know, I would stop it from, I would not let it get exposed to oxygen while you're doing all that freestyling. Uh, but, you know, so like put it in a backbag or in a zippy, and then freeze thought a couple times, see where that works. But if you try it, please, uh, send me the answer because I want to know whether whether it worked, right? Okay, Kurt writes in. Hello, everybody. I've just recently become head bartender of a restaurant in Cambridge, Massachusetts, right next to the MIT campus. The building complex that we are in host a Cambridge Science Festival every year. I bet that's a pretty good science festival. Yeah, yeah. And has asked if we would like to be a part of it. I've been using a handful of modern techniques behind the bar, Pectin X slash Agar clarification, carbonation, EC infusions, and the like.
+
+[40:40] I added the at the lake. wasn't in there. So the chef decided I'd be the best candidate for the job. I made an off the cuff comment about how cool it would be to have a rotovap and centrifuge to play around with for this presentation. And a day later, I got an email asking exactly what I needed for equipment.
+
+[40:58] These guys have a lot of lab connections. I've attached the email I've received with some questions about equipment. Also, I'll be giving a presentation to 75 to 100 people, which I've not done before, and was wondering if you might have any general advice on giving demos to an audience like
+
+[41:13] that. I clearly plan on ignoring that Gemma advice that Thomas Keller gave you last week, where he called me an idiot. Thanks, Kurt. Okay. Uh, and uh, the attached questions are uh, regarding the Centerfusion Roto app. I have a few ideas on who to ask, but a few questions for you. What size centrifuge? Do you need tubes? What size roto app? I assume you need a vacuum for the roto app, and what about the cleanliness of a roto app? Um, Typically the flash you used or cleaning a glass cleaner and autoclay, but is this okay for food, especially if they previously been used with dangerous chemicals,
+
+[41:45] um, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so look it. So a lot depends. Let's start with the centrifuge. Let's start with a presentation, right? When you're going to do a technique. When you're going to do a demo for a lot of people with modern techniques. People like to see rotovaps run, right, Stas? Weve done that a bunch of times. Yeah, they like to see it run. Here's the issue. If you aren't really good at running a roto app, it's going to take you a while to set the sucker up, and it's going to take
+
+[42:14] you, when you 1st setting up a roto app, assuming you haven't played with one before, and you put food products in, it's going to boil over.
+
+[42:21] I'm just telling you that right now. It's going to boil over. And that's a nightmare. And let me tell you from experience. You don't want to boil over in front of a big audience because it makes you feel really stupid, right? Right? The other thing that happens is when you're talking during a demo, here's what people don't like. They don't like to sit and have you sit there and stare at the machine for like half an hour
+
+[42:41] well as distilling, right? So you're going to have to bring someone with you that after you, you know, wave your hands over
+
+[42:47] it and do the magical touches on it and everything like that and get the sucker running, right? And during that time when you get the sucker running, you can't be talking or doing anything because you're going to have to making sure the sucker doesn't boil over on you. And unless, you know, unless you don't want to do a good job. Like, there's always that, right? But you don't want to sit there staring at it. So someone's got to run it. The other problem with the roto app is, is that roto apps take a long time to produce appreciable amounts of product. So what I would do is choose a product in a Roto app that you can make that you can give relatively small tastes
+
+[43:17] of, like really small, like less, like quarter ounce, like little skim shot coach, like really strong flavored stuff that you can give small amounts of.
+
+[43:25] I would stay away and you're going to want to make them beforehand. So even though things like fresh herbs are the best things to do in Rotovat, where one of the best things to do in Rotovat. You don't want to do that because then you can't make that sucker the night before. It brings me to my next point. Never demonstrate a roto app that you haven't fired up before and run for at least a couple of hours.
+
+[43:45] You're going to need this Roto app well in advance so that you can A, make the product that you're going to hand out at the event. And B, get the hang of using it, right? You're also going to need a vacuum pump, obviously. You're gonna want as good a vacuum pump as you want. The chem folks don't need a particularly good vacuum pump because they're not worried about getting good recovery of flavor,
+
+[44:05] right? Ideally, what you would like to have is a bunch of liquid nitrogen and a cold finger, right? Because, chem, they're like, well, just chill it with tap water. Just chill it with tap water. Nah, that's crap. crap flavor. That's not, that's not right. You can't just chill your condenser with tap water and expect to get a decent flavor out of it because
+
+[44:26] then, 1st of all, you're going to need to run your bath at 60 degrees Celsius,
+
+[44:30] right? 140. So like, why bother? Then you're dealing with you're dealing with 60. Then you're dealing with 40 and change as the temperature of your of the actual product in there that's being distilled and you're dealing with 20 degrees, give or
+
+[44:44] take is the temperature, the tap water that you're running off of circulating through your condenser. And you have a very small temperature difference between your product, like, and
+
+[44:54] your, uh, and and your, uh, what's it called? your chiller. I like to have like very large temperature differences, right? And I like to keep my stuff as cold as possible. So like when I'm running a condenser or regular condenser, I run it. of doing alcohol, which is illegal, but hey, at like -20 degrees Celsius, um, and you need a chiller for that. And that, and then when you, when you bring a chiller into the, into the fact, you can run a
+
+[45:17] roto vap with a water bath and a vacuum pump off of a single socket. You can't reliably run a roto vap with a chiller off of one socket. I've seen them blow in demos all the time, all the time. Here's another thing. People are going to, so, so I, if you can get the liquid nitrogen, get it. If not, get a chiller or find something that you can do hotter and it's not going to hurt it like chocolate, you know, like
+
+[45:41] cocoa nibs or something like that, but they boil over. Another thing. Get the biggest freaking distillation flash that you can get, right? Now, everyone's always going to be like, here's a liter flask. And they're going to give you one with a tiny little free game. what's the thing I'm looking, so I'm holding up tiny. what's this word status? Neck, neck, tiny neck. Uh, and and the problem is, it's hard to load stuff in and out of it, and they tend to boil over more violently with the thing when they boil over.
+
+[46:08] So you want a big as flask as possible. Never fill it more than a quarter full, especially when you're learning. Otherwise you're going to have boilover problems, right? Get the biggest around. It's called vapor duct, which is how they, the actual vapor gets transferred into the condenser area. The biggest one, you can. They, tem folks always mess up. They always give you the small thing. Why? Because they're very rarely doing rotary evaporation and quantity. They doing it for more like for analysis. And so it's not, they don't, they don't deal usually in, in like kind of those large style quantities that we're dealing with. So those are some of the recommendations. They also, like, there's inherent problems with most rotive apps and that the stuff that's being distilled down, isn't getting chilled properly, so you're going to want to chill the receiver so that you don't redistill off of it too many times. Um, on centrifuges. You know, if they're going to let you use one, yeah, get new buckets. I mean, I almost exclusively use 3 liter benchtop centrifuges, swinging bucket centrifuges, and they're great for cocktails. Great, along with Pectinex. But, you know, if they have a 500 mil fixed liter rotor, the, the, you know, it has, you know, those, the tubes in
+
+[47:16] it, and the handle, you know, you just do a couple more spins in those, they usually do higher G's anyway, and some of those things, you know, I wouldn't use it for everyday restaurant service, but for a demo, you can get a couple extra spins out of it.
+
+[47:27] I once in Columbia did a demo for a 100 more than a 100 people using that tiny $200
+
+[47:33] centrifuge we got on Amazon. I just had to sit there for 4 hours spinning, you know, tiny tube after tiny tubes. So you can get any of that, you know, that you that you need. Oh, so the size on the road about the size itself of the road of app is not so important. You want a 3 liter flask and probably like a one liter receiver. Uh, if you can get a, uh, um, an LN, um, a
+
+[47:56] cold finger condenser for it. do that on the cleaning, I'd be a little careful. I don't know what kind of chem, presumably the people who have it know what kind of chemicals have been put into it. If you can get new glassware, get new glassware, uh, there can be some persistent nasties that get into, uh, into stuff, especially,
+
+[48:14] uh, anyway. But, I mean, they try to make them nice because they're glass and they're, you know, non-absorptive things like Teflon and whatnot, but, you know, be
+
+[48:23] cautious. The other thing is, is try to get, um, certain brands of rotary evaporator are horrible. Uh, you know, I use uh, Bukey, hideoff is good. You want to get glassware that's coated in plastic. It's called plast glass. And when you look at it, you can see that it's got a coating on it because it's a little bit wavy.
+
+[48:40] And if it doesn't have that, you need to wear safety goggles at all times because if it's really clear looking glass, it means it hasn't been coded and those could implode at any minute and send shards of glass flying around into
+
+[48:54] your eyes, which doesn't make a very good demo. Turns out it makes for a bad demo. But wherever you're doing technology, be sure to have your products done
+
+[49:04] beforehand because I've had anything and everything go wrong on stage,
+
+[49:09] right? And so luckily, because everybody knows that I'm kind of discombobulated and disorganized anyway, I can just kind of smile and shake my
+
+[49:19] head and it all seems to go away, at least most of the time, right, Stas? But that only works if you have the product beforehand to make sure that no one's leaving
+
+[49:30] empty-handed. I'm also, whenever anyone's demonstrating new techniques, and for any of you out there, and hopefully you all do, you know, use some of these new
+
+[49:40] techniques. When you go demonstrate them, I really believe that you should hand out
+
+[49:47] tastes of things whenever possible from what you're doing. And the reason is it's really easy to get a piece of fancy equipment and put it up on stage and have people be like, wow, that's really, that's
+
+[49:59] cool, that's awesome. But what the real challenge is is showing people that they're not just like weird science tricks or
+
+[50:07] gimmicks that they actually can produce delicious products. And so, you know, it's I've always been a fan of handing people things to taste at the demos to prove that what you're showing them on stage isn't just some BS that you're doing for a
+
+[50:21] gimmick. And that's that, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surreyfarms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushway, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Cooking yourself.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from around 12 to around one o'clock. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, a little bit late to the studio today, a victim, I think, of the New York City subway system, but call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. And, uh, don't worry, Nastasia should be here shortly. Have some questions already in, so let me just take care of some of
+
+[1:15] those. Um, The other John Stewart writes in. Dave Nastasia at all. Regarding Steve Jenkins from Fairway. And who does he sound like? Those you might remember that last week, the program was brought to you by Fairway? Who's the program brought to who's doing it today? It's uh, S. Wallace Edwards and son. Oh, yeah, yeah. S. Wallace Edwards, home of one of my favorite American country hands. Now, you know, Sam Edwards, who is, I don't know, like 1000000000th
+
+[1:42] generation ham curing guy. He, uh, you know, he, he and I have this one
+
+[1:48] disagreement, and every time I mention him on the air, and every time I see him in person, I say this. He markets his, one of his excellent, um, you know, uh, at least one year old age kind of, you know, not semi-ambient cured uh, hands, meaning that uh, the
+
+[2:02] refrigerated um, during the curing, the actual curing process so that they don't spoil, but then are allowed to age ambiently, you know, for upwards of a month. Uh, which I think are, you know, delicious. Uh, and he makes them actually with heritage uh, foods, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Heritage breed pork. And they're delicious, but he markets those as Suriano, Surrey being the county in Virginia, where they are, you know, you know, kind of classic, you know, one of the classic places for American country hands. By the way, all American country hams, almost all American country hams are fundamentally derived from the culture of Thai water, Virginia, because it started
+
+[2:40] there, and then, you know, remember, like, everything over, everything from there over, like, through Kentucky was Virginia back in the day. And most of these, you know, a lot of these families have curing routes that date back
+
+[2:51] to, um, at or prior to the American revolution. So, I mean, it's there's a long history of it there. I't know where that can start with. So anyway, so he's calling it Surreyano as like Serrano and Surrey because, you know, well over a decade
+
+[3:06] ago, gosh, it's got to be well over a decade ago. You know, uh, you know, he decided that uh, the kind of hams that
+
+[3:13] he was producing in America, uh, were not receiving their just due and thought they were most like uh, some of the
+
+[3:22] mountain hams. Serrano just means mountain ham, you know, in Spain. And so kind of, you know, was kind of joining the idea of this American ham with kind of this quality of mountain ham that
+
+[3:32] he had had in Spain. And, uh, you know, my feeling has always been, uh, American ham is American ham, sell it as American
+
+[3:40] ham, and Sam Edwards, uh, you know, as much as I love and respect, uh, his
+
+[3:45] products, and, you know, is a good guy. Just call it American. What do you think? Anyone? Anyone? No, no, no one cares. Only me. But anyways, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about, what were we talking about? We were talking about, oh, Steve Jenkins last week from Fairway, who was our sponsor last week. And we'd had a little discussion about, like, what voiceover actor he sounded like, and so the other John Stewart writes in, regarding Steve Jenkins from Fairway, and who does he sound
+
+[4:12] like? To me, he sounds like Alec Baldwin, who does lots of voiceover work, which is
+
+[4:17] weird, because you mentioned Alec Baldwin only minutes later, and it didn't make, and I didn't make the connection. So perhaps you disagree, I threw audio of the 2 into this link, pretty similar, but perhaps not who Dave was thinking of. And then there's a lake, which maybe we can play later, which playing, you know, Steve Jenkins side by side with Alec Baldwin, or maybe we can just call that up somehow. And you know what? John, you're dead on, man. That's exactly what it is. It's Alec Baldwin, but it's kind of one of those things. Voiceovers freak me out a little bit. Like, you know, I was watching this stuff and, you know, commercials come on because I have a TV now and the kids watch it. I watch it. Come on, please. But the, um, commercials come on. Oh, my God, is that Magnum PI? Is Tom Selleck doing voiceover work? I mean, it's not like there's, you know, and Morgan Freeman, by the way, I don't know if any of you guys watch the Olympics. Morgan Freeman, literally, like, I think he was like sitting around on call waiting for people to win medals because he would congratulate them on the medal that they won like 10 seconds
+
+[5:10] after, or did he record every permutation of every American winning every medal?
+
+[5:15] He's like, congratulations on your bronze. you know, just, anyway, whatever. voiceovers. amazing. So John, you're totally right. Alec Baldwin is the call, Alec Baldwin, of course, whose voice is amazing. But John also has a question. I've been bagging all of my low temp food using your Ziploc method for years. The food saver vacuum never looked like it had much advantage over the Ziploc technique and doesn't really seem to pull a hard vacuum. Therefore, it never seemed useful for bagging where you want to use a vacuum to pull your marinade into a product, for example. But I just ran across the ThriftyVac, which you can see on the YouTube. It's a thrifty VAC, I think, one word in VAC is VAC. Thriftiest, though, thrifty, as in someone who is thrifty. And it's cheap. It's on the amazon.com, and you can look, it's like 22 bucks. Fundamentally, well, I'll finish the question. And it looks like this might be able to pull a harder vacuum, then he's saying, I guess, presumably, than a food saver. Do you think this looks useful as a poor person's vacuum
+
+[6:14] chamber, or is it not likely to pull a hard enough vacuum to be any better than the Ziploc method, thanks to the other John Stewart? Yeah, okay. So I took a look at this device. And for those of you out there who, you know, haven't seen it or, you know, aren't on the internets right now, although how you listen to
+
+[6:29] us if you're not on the internets, um, the, what it is, is, is it's a one-way valve and a little kind of like a, like a boxy piece of plastic and a one-way valve that you put onto a large bag, you know, ziploc or other,
+
+[6:43] uh, and it punctures the bag, and then it comes with a little, little, uh, you know, Like a sucking device, almost like a larger version of a vacuum van pulling thing. And you stick a ziploc inside of the other bag that's almost seals. So it's the same as the as the technique, the water technique, by the way, which is what I use at home, because I don't have a vacuum machine at home, is I see almost entirely seal a
+
+[7:08] vacuum Ziploc bag. Ziploc. By the way, when you buy a Ziploc bag. First of all, like, blad bags work, I'll admit, but like, I always buy brand name bags because off brands suck. Never get the ones that have 2 layers of plastic, get the single layer, get also the freezer
+
+[7:23] ones because they're much better gas barriers than the regular ones, and never get the ones with the slidy doodles. I do not trust the ceiling capability of the sliding doodles. Get the ones that have the old school, just zipper, you know, just not zipper, but like just, you know, the seal without the slide doodle, right? So you seal it almost all the way up. Uh, and then you just leave the very corner unsealed. You put your finger in it, lift it by that corner. It now forms a diamond, and you immerse it under the water. As you immerse underwater slowly, you kind of, you know, force the air out from around
+
+[7:53] it, and and presumably your product is surrounded by some form of liquid on the inside of the bag, oil, sauce, whatever.
+
+[7:59] And, uh, and the error once excluded, never comes back in because the water, the pressure of the water excludes
+
+[8:05] it and then add right as the tip of the bag goes underneath, you seal it with your, with
+
+[8:09] your, uh, you pinch it sealed and it's done. And this is the way I do almost everything, it makes a fantastic seal. It doesn't create a vacuum, but it does exclude air, which is 99% of what we want to
+
+[8:20] do when we're doing low temperature cooking unless you're doing a vacuum effect. Okay. So what this thing does is it allows you to put a ziploc inside of another bag with a
+
+[8:30] one-way valve. Uh, but in other in other ways, it's similar. You leave a little corner of the ziploc unpressed, you pull the vacuum, you push the seal shut while it's inside of another
+
+[8:39] bag, and then you pull it out and it's sealed. It's not really that kind of a vacuum pump that they're using, that piston vacuum pump is never going to pull
+
+[8:47] a decent vacuum. Anyway, so we have a caller. I'm gonna get the collar and then I come back and talk more about the this vacuum machine and kind of what I think it's good for and what it doesn't do. Anyway, color, you're on the air. Hello, this is Martin from Vienna calling. Oh, hey, how you doing? I'm fine, thank you. How are you? Doing well. I love you. I've only been to your town for a couple of days, but it seemed very nice when I was there. Yeah, it is. Have you been to a Bristol stand? Did you did the famous cheese sausage? No, no. The only, so I was there literally. I was there for EC, the company. I was doing work with them with rapid infusion, and I was only there for, I was only there for like literally like a day and a half , not even 2 full days. The only thing I got to do. We went to we had a, we had a, you know, schnitzel at the, what's the name of the place that's, it's a couple blocks from
+
+[9:42] the, It a couple blocks from the opera house. It's like famous for its schnitzel. What the heck's the name of it? Like O Faire something. There is Fiegel Miller, where you get the huge ones. I don't think it was that. Or the other one is the Placuta. I have to remember. But it was good, you know, with the lemon wedge and everything. I enjoyed the Viennese potato salad. I did get to visit the market, that long outdoor market that you guys have. What that called? Yeah, national. Yeah, national. That was really cool. And like there's a lot of people there selling, uh, because I only wanted Austrian products because why would I buy a different product when I'm in Austria, right?
+
+[10:18] So I went through there searching various different kinds of cured meats and
+
+[10:23] uh, cheeses and and different products and thought it was uh, it was really nice. But no, I did not get to have the cheese sausage next time. Well, no, I did get to have. No, I didn't. No, we had a sausage. No, I did because when I showed up at lunch for the 1st day, I showed up and like had to go right to work from the airplane and they were like, what do you want for lunch?
+
+[10:42] I was like, worst. And so they brought a bunch of one. I think one of them was cheese. It was good, but I can't recall the name because they just put it in front of me. They didn't tell me what I was eating. But there was one with cheese in it. What's the name of it? What's the name of it? Oh, yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What does Kriner mean? Well, uh, Kreiner, uh, it means it means the sausage coming from Krein, which is uh, in Slovenia called
+
+[11:07] Kranskagora. So that's where the original sausage is coming from. And then the Austrian added the cheese to it. And uh, made it a cheese kind of, so cheese kind of cheese sausage. Well, if my memory serves me, that was it was a good call adding the adding the quesa. Yeah. Okay, so what's your question? Yeah, yeah, it was. But I have a, I have a question about uh, uh, hydrocolor is about
+
+[11:33] celotine, actually. Uh, because I'm trying to do uh, kind of uh, uh, vodka panna cotta. Right. And, uh, I have problems to get it like stiff freely. So, and I know, of course, that that, uh, adding alcohol to gelatin, uh, decreases the, the stability of the
+
+[11:53] shell you have in the end, but, uh, I just, when I, when I, when I get it lower, uh, and the, the gelatin sets really nicely, uh, you cannot taste the vodka anymore.
+
+[12:07] So, and my one, uh, my question is about how, uh, high can I get that, uh, still, if you have like a ratio that, uh, I can still have
+
+[12:17] a set gelatin with, uh, with vodka? Well, most, um, most sources that you
+
+[12:26] read, usually for, uh, and and it's not really based in any sort of reality, right? They put, they put the upper, it's based on kind of rules of thumb. They basically upper limit for most alcohol sensitive
+
+[12:39] hydrocoloids, and most of them are because, remember, it's not water, right? And the hydrocollies require water to do their work. They usually place the upper limit for normal function somewhere in the range of 20%. somewhere in that range. So in general, when you're using... Okay, that would be like the pure, pure alcohol uh, range or the vodka, like 20% uh, pure, pure. But that's, that's like the upper limit. But like the more alcohol that you add to any system, right, the
+
+[13:11] more, uh, it depends on the hydrocolloid too, the more hydrocolloid that you're, you're going to have to add to get the, the
+
+[13:16] same, um, result. So, like, give me your give me your recipe. How much vodka is in there. as a percentage of the tools? Uh, there was about like, uh, I I took uh, 22 parts cream and one point uh, part uh, vodka. So, so, 13rd was vodka, which would be like 16 a bit less, though, almost something like 20%, uh, uh, alcohol, I guess, in the end. So, that should be fine.
+
+[13:45] Maybe... Cream isn't all water either, right? So you got, you got cream, which is not all water, although it's not, it's the, it shouldn't affect it the same way. But, um, what and and what percentage more than the normal gelatin did you use? I just like, I use the kind of sheets that I would normally use, like, uh, uh, I don't know, 6
+
+[14:15] feet on, on, on half a liter. So, I mean, I would just, I mean, if you haven't tried up, like, and it was too, it was too soft, right? Or did it not set it all? Yeah. Was it, was it? It was too stop because my, my, my idea is that in the end
+
+[14:30] I, I put a liquid shell of uh, of coffee in it. So basically it's a reconstruction of a, of a white Russian, uh, and, uh, whenever I try to get
+
+[14:40] uh, the, the liquid shell in it, uh, eventually it would break uh, because it's just not brittle enough, uh, so that, or not, not, not stiff enough. Right, a couple of things you can do. You can up the gelatin concentration, right? I mean, that's the 1st obvious thing to up the gelatin concentration. by like, I wouldn't, you know, don't do anything drastic, like double it because you don't have that much alcohol in it. So I would up it, I would up it like, um, I would up it like, maybe 25% or something like this and see whether or not that adds enough. Were you close to getting it? Was it close to the right texture or not? No, it I mean, it's not bad. It is, it is, it is like a set shell, but it's, it's just, it's, it's not easy to handle
+
+[15:28] in, in, like when I try to put in the, the liquid shell itself. So, uh, I just, it, it would eventually, it would, I, I have like a failure of almost 50% of pieces when I cut
+
+[15:40] in in cubes that would fall apart. So, and that, uh, just, it's just not stiff enough,
+
+[15:47] maybe, maybe just to raise, uh, the, the cello thing would, would help or. Gelatin's good that way in that erasing it doesn't, so like a lot of other hydrocolloids, when you raise their percentages, you get a lot of nasty kind of textual effects and you get a lot of nasty kind of taste effects when you up
+
+[16:05] them, to the point where you get their, like, the functionality, right? Whereas gelatin is pretty friendly that way. I mean, if it, I mean, once you start getting very high percentages on any hydrocolloid, you get a lot of flavor masking because, you know, a lot of the water, which is delivering the, like, you know, some of
+
+[16:22] the you know, the water-based section of the flavor component. It's locked up in, uh, in a hydrocolloid matrix. And so you tend to get very poor flavor released. And the reason why gelatin is so good. And why it's using these is not just because its texture is awesome, but because it tends to melt melt at mouth temperature
+
+[16:40] and you know, and thereby, you know, release and almost get like a, you know, 100% flavor release. The only other ones that have kind of such excellent flavor release are ones that are used in kind of very, in very low, um, quantities, like
+
+[16:54] gelan, right? But if you were going to switch to a different gelling medium for this, like Jeland, the problem you're going to run into, is you have to,
+
+[17:01] you have to ensure that, um, you know, you're going to have to, you're going to have to heat it to a high temperature and then get your alcohol in before it gets down at set temperature,
+
+[17:12] right? Because it gel ends like a snapset. But the other problem is, is that really high temperatures that you need to hydrate, things like gel in, you can't get alcohol that high. Now you can get around it. I've made alcohol, fluid gels all the time with both Agar and with, and, you know, an Agar might be another thing too, because you can make Agar, you can make Agar, um, a lot softer if you put uh, locust bean gum in it or some, a modifier like that, and you can, you can get, um, you know, or
+
+[17:36] kappa, kappa caragin and LBG is the classic one that people use to do gelatin analogs, and you might be able to harden that one up more and have, you know, uh,
+
+[17:45] and, you know, you'll definitely know faster because it sets a lot faster than gelatin does.
+
+[17:49] And I've done plenty of agar gels at 20% alcohol,
+
+[17:55] plenty, because I used to do, you know, as for demos. I used to do, um, I used to do like fluid, like alcoholic fluid gels, you know, all the time that were, you know, right around 20%. So I know that, I know that that system works well, but I think the gelatin will probably work well for
+
+[18:12] you if you just up the percentage slightly. And, well, slightly 20, 20, try 20% and see whether or not you get, because what you really want is you want it to be just at the failure point, right? You want it to hold itself. You want to be able to handle it, move it around and plate it. But you don't really want any more than that, right? And then that's what gelatin's so good at. It's its seeming delicacy, uh, when it's, you know, you know, there. But the, you know, but then you, you run into the other issues if it's breaking and and then if your kitchen's hot or whatnot, I don't know how well a control you have over the temperature in the kitchen, but, you know, when gelatin gets close to being too soft and then it gets warm. It's like, you know, you're done. You're done. You know, you're never going to be able to handle the product. But I think you should be able to do it by just by increasing at those levels. If you were saying that you were going to do straight vodka. I'm saying, well, that's, you know, problematic, but, you know, I've done plenty of, uh, you know, up to 15% alcohol with gelatin just by upping the
+
+[19:07] gelatin. Even ones that have to withstand fairly, uh, you know, rigorous, you know, conditions like, uh, I've done carbonated alcohol, uh, regular gelatin gels up at those percentages, uh, at least
+
+[19:20] 14 because I've done, you know, pretty high, high, uh, alcohol wines that way. But by jacking the gelatin somewhat. Yeah. By the way, when I, when I would like put the cream, the, uh, with Chelatin and, and, and floats and everything, like, still warm into a ISI, uh, and then sprite, like, to make like whipped cream,
+
+[19:43] with the Chelatin hold the shape, or, or would it? Yeah. Well, so I mean, gelatin, by the way, also, like with cream, if you get well, like anything over about 20%, the
+
+[19:55] cream's going to start being in danger of breaking, like that's kind of like the magic place of cream, cream liquors without any sort of added protecting things in it. You could protect the cream, obviously, uh, you know, with various agents to stop it from breaking, but, uh, including gelatin, that's what the
+
+[20:11] comique thing is made out of. But anyway, yeah, gelatin can be used as the foaming agent in ISI with that. However, like if you wanted to hold, if you want to do, like, if you want to make this recipe in an ISI and have it hold indefinitely, really dense, dense, dense, dense texture, what percentage cream is it to the
+
+[20:31] fluid gel? I mean, to the gel? Is it, you'd say, the third? The, uh, full, uh, what percentage cream? Is it 30 cent?
+
+[20:41] To the what, you mean? Yeah, no, it's like, it's like 3 parts, 3 parts, uh, 2 parts vodka makes one part cream. Yep. Yeah. No, two-part cream and one part, what's going. Oh, yeah, okay, no problem. So what I would do is I would lower, I would lower the, this should be fine. Like you're down, you're down more like, you know, 15% or something like this. You should be okay just by opening the tip, but try this, right? Take your, take the, the vodka. Do, uh, make a, I think it should work at around 11%. Take let. I'll just give you some random numbers to try. Take 500 mils of water. Uh, uh, yeah, do 500 mils of water, and then, um, uh,
+
+[21:24] 10, 10 grams of don't, you don't have to make the full recipe. I just giving you numbers that are easy to remember. 500 grams of water, 10, 10 grams of agar, cold, obviously, hydrate the, the agar, you know, whisk it in cold, bring it up to heat, simmer it for 2 minutes, temper in 500 mils of
+
+[21:40] vodka. right? Let it set into a one% gel. It should be fairly firm, even at that, even at that 20%. It's not, you can try it at a slightly higher agar percentage, right? Now blend it in a blender. So now you have a vodka fluid gel. Now it's only 50% vodka, right? But instead of doing 2 cream, one, lean, make it a little leaner and do one to one cream with that vodka stuff in an ISI, and as long as the fluid gel worked, which I'd have to test it to make sure that exactly
+
+[22:11] a 20 that the agar works, that is going to be dense, dense, dense. So a lot of times what I'm trying to do very dense ISDI foams, I do fluid gel reinforced cream bases and they
+
+[22:22] work, they work really, really well. And in fact, you can do things that would normally curdle cream, like you can do lemon
+
+[22:29] juice, and eventually it'll curdle, but because a lot of the lemon juice is locked up inside of a fluid gel, it doesn't break the cream right
+
+[22:35] away and the stuff that's foamed out lasts like a long, long, long time. The one thing I will say is that when you're putting a fluid gel into an ISI, you
+
+[22:45] remember it's a fluid gel. So when you, when you point the ISI down, it doesn't naturally run down to the bottom of the ISI and dispense, you have, every time you dispense it, you have to put your finger over the, uh, over the dispensing,
+
+[22:58] um, uh, tip and and flick the canister down so that you're sure that you have all the fluid gel packed against the head so that we need dispense
+
+[23:05] it. It's actually there. But it's a fantastic way to do reinforced creams. And I like I do reinforce creams with like very high acid fruits all the time that way. And I'm pretty sure it would work with an alcohol fluid gel as well. Okay, thank you very much. No problem. By the way, I won, I won, uh, ISI, uh, um, siphon by mentioning you. Um, because they had, they had like this, this, uh, thing before Christmas, they would give out like free, uh,
+
+[23:37] uh, siphons. Just you have to write them why you want to use it. And I mentioned uh, because I like the ignore, uh, Dave Arnold's uh, quick infusion
+
+[23:46] trick, and I would like to use it, and that's how I want my eyesight. Oh, beautiful. I just had another idea, by the way. You might be able to hydrate the agar in, uh, in like milk or cream, uh, and then uh, put the vodka into
+
+[24:03] it, and dope it, and that way you wouldn't have to have all that water, but you'd have to play around with it to make sure it would work. But I think that might also be a solution. It'll stop you from having to add the extra water. But give it a shot. Try it. Okay. Yep. Thank you very much. All right, have fun with the whipper. Thank you. I will. All right, bye-bye. Okay, now back to Ustas, Stas is like... Oh, yeah, we went, we'll come back with cooking issues and Nastasia Lopez.
+
+[25:27] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams our aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of
+
+[25:57] brochure pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. Wow. Jack, Jack, here, Anastasia is here. It's like crazy. Show can start now. Oh, man, you guys, you freaking guys. Although, uh, you missed. I went on a thing about the whole Soriano thing and how I feel about it, but now I can talk about the fact that I'm guessing, and I've never had this conversation, so I'm just guessing, Nastasia, do you hate the harmonica? I don't. Really? I would think you hate it because you hate things that tell stories and it's like an inherently storytelling kind of an instrument. Like, you know, kind of... It speaks from the soul. You're like, yeah, now I hate it. No, I hate it though. Yeah, yeah. So how you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? And Jack? doing well. Yeah. So Jack, you had a question you were going to ask us, right? Yeah, we won. We wanted to know your kind of thoughts on some of these new apps coming out that are catered
+
+[26:53] towards restaurant eaters. Like, for instance, there's one called No Wait, right? And you can you can get on a restaurant, waiting line at home with the app. Well, I mean, I love that. Yeah. Except for, you know, my, my, my, the problem, I don't know how it works because I've never used it as a, as a user, and I would like that. Imagine if you could just not admit, so I live like 2 blocks from or 3 blocks from Mission Chinese, right? Uh, which is Danny Bowen's restaurant. And, uh, you know, they don't take the reservations, uh, and the way it's like a 1000000000 years, but, you know, it would be no problem for me to just sit at home, you know, uh, you know, the wife and I drinking ourselves silly, and then waiting for, you know, them to say, you've got 10 minutes to hightail it over
+
+[27:36] here, and I could hightail it over there. And yes, that would be a fantastic boon to someone like, like me. I don't know how they operated as a, you know, as an operator. You know, I know at the bar that a lot of times when people are on a list, they don't necessarily come back, you know, and so
+
+[27:50] it's, um, do they have some mechanism to ensure that you're going to come back? We're interviewing them later today so we'll find out. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, it's the kind of thing that obviously is a boon to the consumer. Uh, the question is, how hard is it going to hose, um, how hard is it going to hose the restaurants that use it? Do they have some anti-hosing mechanism in the application? I think all apps need an anti-hosing mechanism. Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, so, I mean, just to let you know, you know, we we have a lot of situations at the bar where, you know, we we, people come in, we're like, okay, we're full because we, you know, we only have seeds for like 32 or whatever. Uh, and uh, we say, okay, uh, you know, party of, you know, 5 or whatever it is, you know, we'll text you when, um, it's free, then we text them. We put a reserve sign on the seat. Now we have 5 seats empty, and it's not, it's not just that there's 5 seats empty that we're not turning money around on, although that
+
+[28:46] doesn't hurt me deeply. The real problem is, is then people come in and they see the empty seats and they get pissed off that they can't get seated.
+
+[28:53] You know what I mean? So it's it's tricky. It's a kind of a fine dance on how to do it. Bigger places, it's easier to deal with because they have more turnover. But I wonder how it works in smaller places. Like when you only have like 30 seats. You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's hard to ride that line properly. You know what I mean? Yep, totally But I'm interested to hear what they say. I'm interested to hear what the anti-hosing mechanism is. Yeah, right? What do you got going today, Stas? anything good? No? Absolutely. No? Absolutely not. Nope. Nothing? You know what came in yesterday? What do you mean? We got the Sears all t-shirts in yesterday. Yes, it was great. They look, although stars couldn't, didn't get a chance to see them. She had to go run an errand before they showed up. Like, the extra large is extra large.
+
+[29:37] I'm glad because I'm nervous. We have most of our t-shirt buyers are extra larges. You could sail a tugboat into the shirt that I picked up. Do we have XXLs or are they just XLs? No, just XLs. Man, Dax, you know, so Booker and Dax named after my
+
+[29:53] kids' booker and Dax. Dax, a small one who only wears Luchar Mats, although he forgot it this morning on the Walking the Dog. I think because I kicked him out of bed because my wife was gone, so both kids had to come out with me to walk the dog this morning. And, uh, forgot his luchador mask for the 1st, it's the 1st time I've seen him outside of the house without a luchador mask on in months, like months.
+
+[30:14] weird, huh? I wonder whether maybe he's giving up the Luchador phase. I hope not because I haven't, you know, he hasn't had his mask yet. his custom mask. How do we get into this? What were you talking about? Oh, sure. So he was like, I don't want a series all shirt. I was like, Dax, I guarantee you we didn't order any kid sizes. I right? There's only smalls. I mean, the price would have been a lot higher if we had kid sizes, so just thinking about the company. What? Stas always tries to make it seem like I'm being an ogre for no reason. First of all, people, people, people. I was never once consulted on this. And I would have said, you know, yeah, no, we're not going to order kid sizes because it's fundamentally not that I want kids to play with. Small is not like Dax is like, he's nine. He's not like he's not like a teenager, right? Booker could wear a small. No, Dax wants to wear it around. Dax wants to wear it like in the street. Now you're saying that the ones we bought are going to shrink? No, like, there's a way to shrink shirts on purpose, right? I don't know, I don't do that kind of thing. I don't try to buy normal shirts and then shrink them down to clubware because I don't go to clubs. Um, okay. No offense, no problem clubs. So back to John Stewart's, the other John Stewarts question. So for those of you that don't remember, because it seemed like it was a long time ago, the issue is, is will this new thing, this Thrifty Vac, work, to pull a real vacuum on
+
+[31:35] something as opposed to just using a Ziploc. My feeling is that it's not going to suck any more hardcore of a vacuum than a vacuum than can
+
+[31:44] suck, and that it's not, it's probably useful if you want to, without having a big water bucket around to put things in a
+
+[31:51] ziploc. But I don't think it's going to achieve much more than you can do just water dunking in a Ziploc. Um, so there you have it. But it's cheap. And so if you want to do a lot of dry bagging work of stuff in Ziploc bags, you know, maybe it would be useful, but most of the people, I looked on
+
+[32:07] Amazon. It's got a lot of very positive reviews. But if you actually burrow into the reviews on Amazon, almost everyone who was familiar with
+
+[32:16] the water dunk method of ziplocing was like, I don't really understand the advantages over a water dunk method on ziplocing. So I don't think it's gonna, it's not going to be there. It's not gonna be, you know, an alternative for kind of vacuum infusion, I don't think. And by the way, they, uh, you know, a couple of the, the, one of the people who did a review of it on YouTube that you sent us a link to said that, um, you know, that it's kind of turns it into a chamber vacuum machine. And it does not turn
+
+[32:42] it into a chamber vacuum machine because the minute you displace the air out of the bag, air from the outside pushes on top of the bag. In fact, that's kind of the MO. using the bag to push on the bag, and that's how it's working. Chamber vacuum machine works entirely differently in that it just removes the air and there's no physical
+
+[32:59] compression on the item until the air is allowed back in, right? And so that's kind of like that is the, that, that is how chamber works. This works much more in the fashion that a food saver works, except for instead of using a food saver bag, they enclose this thing in an outside bag. Now, what I do think it would be really good at probably is if you wanted to make castings, like if you wanted to do, not castings, I don't know what my brain is shot
+
+[33:23] today. If you want to do like fiberglass work and you want to do or pre-prag work with
+
+[33:27] like fibers and stuff, you could, you know, because one of the problems of doing, let's say you wanted to make something out of
+
+[33:33] fiberglass and resin, right? And you want to put it over a mold, well, the question is, how do you get it to stick nicely to the mold? And, you know, a good way to do it is using kind of a backbag system where you put the entire, you put the impregnated resonant impregnated fiberglass, carbon fiber, Kevlar, whatever the hell you're using, over your mold, you put it into a vacuum machine, suck it, suck it. I think this might be a good way to do that. But that doesn't come up very often in the kitchen, does it? I mean, I used to, remember, remember the, remember the Mokumagani thing I did back in the day with the, I used vacuum bag molding for that.
+
+[34:08] Um, but, um, that was where, you know, we took different colors of fish, layered them up with uh, translutaminates, uh, and then par froze them on a
+
+[34:16] mold, uh, in like a wavy shape and then sliced it on, uh, on the, um, Hobart model. what is it, 3000 or 2000. Uh, meat slicer so that it looked like wood grained fish. That was a fun trick. I haven't done that in a while. You know why? Because they gave me that freaking meat slicer and I let stupidly left it at the FCI because I felt it had been there so long that they kind of
+
+[34:36] like of stupid. I should have taken that second with me. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay, like that would work. Anyway, uh, so, can we have something we're going to talk about, says? We had something we're going to talk about. I forget. Anyway. Joshua writes in from Switzerland regarding ice cream. Hi, Dave Anastasia. Greetings from Switzerland. I'm a big fan of your show, and Stas is a big fan of Switzerland, as it turns out, right? Oops, true. She loves it a Swiss. She loves it a Swiss. Um, but he doesn't say which Switzerland he's from. like Switzerland. I only like the Italian parts, so... Really? Like, how how like cleanly divided are the different parts of Switzerland? They all hang out in like the big cities they all hang out, right? So you get everyone in the big cities, right? Times don't really, they don't move from here, yeah. Oh, the German French do. Move everywhere. They move everywhere. So like Geneva, there's no Italian people in Geneva? Not a lot. Not that I saw. none Not one. Not one Italian speaking. They're like they're Italians. They don't leave their mother's house. Wow. Wow. All right. We'll talk about that later. Greens for Switzerland. I a big fan of your show. Lately, I've been obsessed with ice cream. I own an ice cream maker, which is able to cool to -35 Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit. I didn't do the calculation, but just for your edification, the one I always remember, -20 Celsius is -4 Fahrenheit. So you're well into the minus range. Well, well into the minus range, probably around -20 Fahrenheit, something pretty hardcore.
+
+[36:09] A couple of days ago, I made a whiskey ice cream on a recipe by Heston Blumenthal,
+
+[36:16] which by the way, I looked up the Blumenthal recipe. So that what's about to happen isn't a, like whatever is about to happen, the results that Joshua had that he's not going to be happy
+
+[36:25] with. He's going to describe him in, aren't due to a high alcohol content in the whiskey ice cream because what I saw on the internet of Heston Blumenthal, he burns the whiskey 1st to get rid of a lot of the alcohol. So we're not dealing with the softness based on a high alcohol content. Let's just get that up. I don't want anyone thinking that while I'm reading this question because that's not what's going on, right? Were you thinking that, Stas? All right. I love the ice cream maker. Okay. on a recipe with Heston Blumenthal and sage ice cream with egg, sugar, and milk custard. I let the ice cream maker precool to approximately -25 Celsius and then pour the ice cream base and let it churn. And here's the thing. Here's what you stick in your head. I let it churn for approximately 30 minutes. After that, I store the ice cream overnight in a freezer. A taste test, the next morning left me unsatisfied. The ice cream was tasty, but it seemed that 2 large ice crystals had formed because it had an unpleasant
+
+[37:17] mouth feel and didn't feel smooth. Therefore, my questions. How does the churning time influence the development of ice crystals? Is there a minimum time which you would suggest? Do you see any flaws in my ice cream making and can you recommend any good literature on ice cream making and theoretical base?
+
+[37:33] I've read the chapter on ice cream in the book, The Kitchen as laboratory, but need more. Thank you in advance for your help, Joshua. By the way, the word laboratory brings up. I have, so Travis Hugget, who did the photography on my cocktail book, and I, we were in the subway the other day. And when I say the other day, I
+
+[37:49] mean, yesterday. And we had, like, seriously, the idea that could make us, like, like, the new, like, Anne Getty slash, uh, uh, what's his
+
+[37:57] name, Wegman, the Weimeroner thing. But since we're never going to do it. I'm going to give this idea out there to somebody, now, you're going to think this is really stupid, but the more you think about it, right? The more you think about it, the better it gets ready. This could be the hottest wall and desk calendar.
+
+[38:16] of 2015. Labs in labs. We're talking Labrador Retrievers, in laboratory situations, with lab coats
+
+[38:27] on, labs, in labs. Now you're like, that's dumb, right? But look at this. I think it's dumb, even though I came up with the idea. And yet, if I saw that thing on Amazon for 15 bucks, I would own it right now.
+
+[38:40] I would buy. I would pre-order that sucker right the hell now. Labs in labs. Come on, somebody do it. Here is what I want. Travis and I, we need some cut. That's all. Like, all I want, like maybe even a mention, a cut, you know, when they come with the barrels of money and drop them off at your house for having done this labs
+
+[38:57] and lab calendar, like when you're swimming through money, just remember that as you're bailing the boat out so that you don't drown in your own money, just put one of those buckets of money, you know, our way.
+
+[39:07] That's all I'm saying, right? That's all that's all I need. Labs and labs. Uh, so, uh, here's the deal. ice cream, the longer, okay, ice crystals, the faster you freeze something, the smaller the ice crystals are, right?
+
+[39:23] And the reason is because with rapid freezing, you get many nucleation sites, right? So ice crystals don't ice crystals prefer to form on other ice crystals. In other words, ice crystals prefer to grow rather than to form entirely new ice crystals, right? It's more energetically favored. So the slower something freezes. The larger the ice crystals are. The more rapidly something freezes, the more different nucleation sites you
+
+[39:49] get, and the smaller the ice crystals are because they don't have time to grow into larger ice crystals.
+
+[39:55] So there's a direct relationship between the size of the ice crystals that are formed in
+
+[40:00] a freezing process and the rate of freezing. Now, there are other factors as well. Uh, you know, uh, the composition of it, but, but, for a given ice cream composition, the crystal size is directly related to uh, the freeze time.
+
+[40:15] Now here's another thing. Typically, when you're freezing the ice cream. Remember, you're never freezing ice cream until it's a total solid. A good amount of the product of the ice cream is still in a liquid state, right? And how much of it is liquid is dependent on what the freezing point of the ice cream
+
+[40:34] is, and that's dependent on things like the sugar content. Uh, and, you know, the fat, things like this. Well, not really the fact content, but the sugar content, right? So, you know, you're looking at there's a lot of liquid water in there. So when you draw out of a machine, you've been churning for 30 minutes, you draw out of the machine, there's still a lot of liquid in
+
+[40:51] it, you already have kind of large seed crystals in there because of the
+
+[40:55] long freezing time, 30 minutes. You then put it in the freezer to harden overnight and what happens? Those crystals get bigger and bigger overnight as it gets colder and colder. So let's say you have a draw temperature. So forget what the freezing temperature of the, of the, uh, forget what the, the minimum possible condenser temperature is in your ice cream
+
+[41:12] maker, right? Forget it, because that's not what's important. What's important is what the temperature, how fast it can put the energy into
+
+[41:20] the ice cream, right? So a commercial ice cream machine, even if it's only,
+
+[41:25] uh, you know, if it's running at a higher temperature than yours, has enough, has enough ability to chill, enough chilling power that it can freeze the ice cream to its draw temperature of somewhere around, I don't know, 20 Fahrenheit, let's say, 18, what is it, between 15 and
+
+[41:41] 20? I forget exactly. Fahrenheit, the draw temperature. It can do that in 10 minutes or less, right? So the LB 100, which a lot of people use the tailors, depending on the batch size that you put in, you can get down to like a 7 minute batch time, right? Anything below like a 7 to 10 minute freeze time, the
+
+[41:58] the fact that your crystals are smaller doesn't make a damn bit of difference because you can't taste ice crystals that like your tongue can't distinguish the texture of ice crystals that are
+
+[42:07] any smaller than that. So while some people say the texture of liquid nitrogen ice cream is superior to the texture of ice cream that's frozen in a regular
+
+[42:13] machine because it theoretically has smaller, you know, crystals. That's horse hockey because your tongue can't distinguish anything. But you can very easily tell the difference between an ice cream that took 30 minutes to
+
+[42:24] freeze and an ice cream that only took 7 or 8 minutes to freeze. Now, the flip side is, is if you were to take, um, so, so, so what to do. Um, you know, one thing is, is look at the power requirements on the, on the back of your
+
+[42:40] machine, and you can kind of get an idea of how much, and you can't really, because things get much less efficient as they get colder in terms of how
+
+[42:47] much they can effectively apply to the ice cream when you're, when you're making it. But almost all machines are underpowered to actually freeze
+
+[42:54] the stuff in a relatively quick fashion. One thing you can do. Obviously start with extremely cold mix. Second thing you can do is use less mix. Now, the problem with using less mix is that a lot of machines, if you underfill the machine, it has too much overrun, i.e. too much air gets whipped into
+
+[43:12] it. So this is something you're going to have to address or worry about. The 3rd thing is, is if you are going to have a freeze time of, let's say, 20 to 30 minutes, then I would recommend only doing it right before you're about to serve it and not try to harden
+
+[43:29] it. Since, since machines that have like a 20 to 30 minute freeze time, the texture of the ice cream is usually pretty good right out of the machine, but once hardened, then it all starts going to hell in a
+
+[43:40] handbasket pretty quickly. Um, I don't know, does that seem to answer that part of that question? As regards references, the best online reference, and it really gets you a long way before you buy any books,
+
+[43:54] is, um, go to, uh, Google this, dairy education series at the university, and I can never know how it's actually pronounced
+
+[44:01] this town, uh, Guelph. You think it's Gel for Guelph, Gelph, Gelph. Yeah, Canadian. Who knows? But the professor who wrote that is H. Douglas Goff. And it's a fantastic resource and I use it as my quick and ready resource and have for years.
+
+[44:16] And fantastic website with a lot of information. Now, as for books, the classic, the
+
+[44:24] ice cream book is called, you know, makes sense. ice cream. That's what it's called. And it came out in the 60s. It was released by a company called AVI Press. AVI Press in the 60s and 70s put out kind of the best food technology book series.
+
+[44:42] It was so awesome. I used to go to the New York Public Library and read them constantly and I would literally 0 Xerox them. You know, this is like, you know, 20 years ago. go Xerox them. So I could have them because I couldn't afford them. Now, they've been superseded somewhat, and AVI is no longer out of business. But they, that book was called Ice Cream by Arbuckle. And our buckle was it. Like, the in like, everyone was like, Arbuckle ice cream. In fact, they didn't even call it ice cream anymore. They just called it Arbuckle. And everyone knew that they were talking about the ice cream book. No relation to Fatty Arbuckle, the silent film star who may or may not have been wrongly accused of doing that, whatever. I don't want to get into it. But the Arbuckle ice cream. So, uh, you familiar with Fatty Arbuckle and Silentone Star stuff? Yeah, you think he did it? Really? you think he did it? I need to reread it. I don't remember what I said, what I thought. My last impression was I think he was falsely. This is so off topic. All right, right, right, right, right. So, uh, so here's what happened. When it got bought, they did a redo of it,
+
+[45:42] right, with a new author, Robert T. Marshall and WS Arbuckle,
+
+[45:46] right? That's the 5th edition from 2000, right? Now already they've changed the authorship on it. And then in 2003, they took they took Arbuckle off the book entirely, and then it was Robert Marshall, Douglas Goff, right? You know, good guy, and Richard Hartel is not at Guelph like golf. He's at Madtown. the ice cream scientist at University of Wisconsin Madison. Anyways, so then Arbuckle came off. I got really pissed. I don't really like it when something's like a standard like that, and then they rewrite it, and then they just like, they take the original author off. They should have called it Arbuckles ice cream with the new authors on it, right? Uh, and uh, and then now they released it uh, in 2013. They just released it as ice cream by H. Douglas Goff and
+
+[46:32] Richard Hartell. So whatever. I don't appreciate the loss of the lineage of like such a well-known book, but there you have it. That's the ice cream book to get. The other one is called by C. Clark. Science of Ice Cream. And it's 2004 from the Royal Society of Chemistry. Little bits of it is available on Google Books and on Amazon. And so I looked through it, and it also looks pretty good. Cover, there's 2 covers I saw. Cover looked like crap. It was like scooped out, colored lard. Like why do people do that when they're shooting ice cream? Just shoot real ice cream and shoot it fast, you know? Do you like lard looking ice cream for fake? You hate that, right? Like, I know it, like, you know, you're selling your science of ice cream, and then you have the other one was just a series of tubes. It's a series of tubes. I didn't really, I didn't get that, but I like the tube cover better. Anyway, but that's another alternative. All right. So that's good on that on that. Yeah, 4 minutes. 4 minutes. Oh, my God. Well, listen. So Sam wrote in about homemade pasta sheets for
+
+[47:27] lasagna, and I have my thoughts on it, but I'm going to try to wait. We were going to try to get Mark Ladner on because, you know, he
+
+[47:35] makes, they make the pasta for that 1000000000 layer lasagna, right? It's not a 1000000000 layers. How many layers is it? 100 hundred? So I wanted to get kind of his feelings on it. especially on like whole egg versus egg yolk and various things in
+
+[47:48] pasta and also his feelings on gluten-free pasta and bite and stuff like that because he knows a lot. So maybe we can get them next week. So, Sam, I'm going to put off your question on that till next week. And let's go up to, and I, you know, by the way, I'm sorry, Twitter, folks,
+
+[48:04] I wasn't looking to get a chance to any Twitter questions, but I'm going to tabulate them all. I'll try to answer some of them on Twitter and then ones I can't answer on Twitter. I'll postpone until next week. Jeff Mays writes in. Just curious if you or Dave were ever able to figure out how best to cook candle nuts so that they're safe to eat. I have a pressure cooker and a circulator and not sure if there's a foolproof way to par cook so I can keep them in the house without having to worry about them being poisonous. I called in a while ago about the question, but I haven't heard the answer yet. Okay. I've only been able to find the stupid stuff on not stupid, whatever. But the stuff on Wikipedia that say that it contains saponin and 4 ball. And everyone just quotes that as a block text out of that. But I haven't found the references on relative heat stability just that they're just that it's inactivated by cooking, not necessarily in a pressure cooker. Typically these guys are roasting it. So, uh, you brought it back to my attention. I haven't answered it and I'm going to come back and do some more research on it. But you have a 2nd question, which I can hit a little harder. For low temperature fried chicken. If you pre-cook at 64 degrees white meat at for 45 minutes, the chicken chill, then refrigerate. What is the best fry temperature to ensure that I don't overcook the chicken, but still get a delicious crispy crust. I brine using the ad hoc, you know, to Keller's book recipe, then low temp cooked, chill, then refrigerate, then
+
+[49:15] remove, and fry, and using flour, buttermilk, uh, uh, I'm using a flour, buttermilk, flour, procedure for frying, which is what I use, but, you know, put egg in the buttermilk. Anyway, when I last did this at 365, uh, 360 degrees in grapeseed oil, that's Fahrenheit, uh, the white meat was not as juicy as when I didn't pre-cook low temp and did all the frying at
+
+[49:32] 325. Or is there a different temp I should use for low temperature? I really want to do the chicken quickly so that I can have it fresh out of the fryer for guests shortly after they arrive and don't have to spend a dinner party in front of a fry station. Thanks again for the show every week. Jeff Mays. Okay, here's a couple of questions for you. A couple of issues. So, um, typically, uh, what may be going on is that you're cooking it brined, uh, and then allowing it
+
+[49:56] to uh, to refrigerate and sit. I'm wondering if it's firming up a little bit, the way that most salted meats really firm up when they're being cooked, and whether or
+
+[50:06] not when you say it's not as juicy, is it, there's a couple of things it could be. Is it that it's not as juicy, but it's still clearly not overcooked? Does it taste firmer, i.e. more cured? In which case, if you're going to pre-cook it a long time before, maybe omit the brining or do a lighter brine so it doesn't taste as firm or cured,
+
+[50:27] that's, I'm not sure, I'd have to test it. I don't have this problem. I'll tell you why. I don't refrigerate my chicken. When I'm doing low temp chicken. I do it fairly soon before the meat is going to be served. I remove it from the ziplocs, uh, where it's brine. I cook it in the brine, frankly. And then I pull it out and I pull it out hot. And the reason I pull it out hot is so that the skin flashes off and gets tacky so that I get good adhesion of my batter,
+
+[50:55] right? Now, I know there's a whole pies and thighs, Roberta's theory of, you know, not drying the chicken at all before you batter it, but whatever. I don't do that. And so, and then I fry it in the limit of food safety time. So I never chill it down and I never and I fried at 360, right? So, you know, that's kind of how I do it. And what my feeling is, is that you're probably, uh, you're probably getting a, a, a lack of the feeling you getting out of a fresh cooked chicken because it was cooked,
+
+[51:31] brined, and cooked, uh, and allowed to sit in the salt, uh, you know, in
+
+[51:35] some salt for so long, it's pulling on that kind of texture, but I'm not sure. I'm going to have to, maybe I could put a call into a couple of people and see what I'm working on. Or maybe do a side-by-side test. But I would try to do it fresh. Uh, i.e. you could still do it so your dinner guests don't get hosed, right? You could do it a couple hours before they show up. But try doing it kind of out of me nude because 360 is what you should do. I wouldn't do it from cold though, by the way. That might be another problem you're having. You might be trying to warm up the center of the chicken by doing a 360 degree cook. If you try to do that, you're going to overcook the hell out of the outside of the chicken and you'll also burn the crust. The optimum thing is to have the chicken be, you know, somewhere, you know, like above room temperature, at
+
+[52:16] or above room temperature, so that when you fry it, you're literally just focused on the crust and everything else is secondary. Here's something you might want to do to try that as a problem is pull your stuff. If you're going to leave it in the bag and refrigerate it. Try this. Pull it out of the fridge, if it's not the salt problem, pull it out of the fridge, and circuit
+
+[52:36] for, like, no, 25 minutes at, like, uh, 50 Celsius, and then, uh, pull it out hot, uh, let it flash off for a little
+
+[52:47] bit, or even 55 Celsius. let it heat up, flash it off for a couple of minutes, then bread it, then fry
+
+[52:53] it, and see whether that solves your problem. Maybe you're just going from too cold and spending too long in the fryer. Anyway, those are my thoughts. We got Peter Cam who shows up late or as last week, never. Whoa. From the, actually, what's interesting is he actually was here in Roberta's. But he was at the bar. But that makes sense. That makes sense. Peter Kim, what do you got for us? president? what are you, president, director? Emperor of the Museum of Galactic Emperor of the Museum of Food and Drink? Exactly. Nice. All right, what do you got for us? Well, I just wanted to give a shout out to the Golden Cadillac, to Don Lee, the Asian man with the best hair in New York City. Well, and, you know, there's a t-shirt of all the various incarnations of Don Lee's hair, and I think his hair deserves the actual legal technical term of incarnation.
+
+[53:38] I believe it has agency. Absolutely, absolutely. has a soul. Yeah. And I've got the calendar of his hair. And also to cocktail superstar John
+
+[53:46] Deragon, the 2 of them put together a great event for MoFAD a couple weeks ago at Golden Cadillac. And yeah, good turnout. Dave, you were there in a mask and a cape shooting. Yeah, syringes of Jell-O shots into people's mouths. Don Lee's jello shots, by the way. They were Don Lee's yellow shots. I take no credit. I take no blame. I was merely the bar back, the server. The waitron. Yeah, Patrick was there too, Patrick Martin's, and... was his quote? Give me Patrick Martin's quote. As he self-injected himself with, with, uh, piña colada. What was the quote? Give it to me. I blocked it from my drive. Oh, come on, don't. Dave, I don't remember anything. No, he's like calling him out. He's not calling him out. was awesome. not calling him out. Hey, how about those flat pizzas that they've got at Subway? Don't get me started. Don't get me started. Don't get me started. We don't have time to get me started. I have a question about MSG though. Oh, geez. you know, Peter, Peter. So why don't you, instead, why don't you spend the, the, you know, the few minutes we have left, and that reminded me, now I have called the personality going through my head. But for those of you that remember living color, you know, cult personality song. Do you remember that? Good song. Anyway, so what do we got going to the museum soon? Well, actually, so on the Golden Cadillac thing, we're going to make that monthly thing. And so keep an eye out for that. And then we've got a debate coming up on GMOs on, I think, Sunday, April
+
+[55:03] 27th at the food book fair. And we've got a big MoFed fundraiser coming up in May, and the Stasi and I are playing it together. is going to be amazing. Got some great chefs lined up for that. May 7 is our tentative date, but we'll be sending out, say the date as soon as we get the details. Are we doing any particular aspect of GMOs are we going to tackle? Man, I mean, I think one of the 1st questions is just going to be about defining GMOs and what those are and how they differ from conventionally grown
+
+[55:29] crops, if at all. Why is that really contentious? The actual definition? Yeah, it is. The definition is contentious. All right. Well, I will, am I going to moderate this one? Uh, yeah, I will have you moderate it. Why is the definition? Oh, I mean, how you define it legally in terms of, hey, Stas, Stas is worried because she's got something else to do. No, it's true. It's fine. I won't discuss what it is. But the point is, is that the, the, the, I guess the definition of what you actually count as a GMO modified food is quite important as it relates to whether or not you could sell it in Whole Foods in 5 years when they come
+
+[56:03] in, right? that what you mean? No one really, no one really argues about what, what the process of using genetic modification is. It's just whether or not a particular food stuff is labeled as GMO free or not, right? That's what's contentious. That's true. Yeah, and also for regulation purposes, too. Right, sure. Sure, sure. All right. So, yes, a giant thanks to the Golden Cadillac. John Daragon, Don League, Greg Baum, all those guys. They did a real solid service with that. And maybe we should have, you know, occasionally we should have you come in and just give us a MoFat update. Yeah, sure. Yeah? You like that? All right. I'll stand you up. Yeah, nice. All right. Well, that was it. Cooking issues. Labs and labs.
+
+[56:49] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[57:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, two! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the
+
+[1:08] Harris Radio Network. Joined as usual, witness Dasha. Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? I've got Evan in the control booth today, right? How you doing, Evan? Good, how are you? You ever, you don't talk much on the air. No, I'm been a quiet guy. Yeah, quiet guy. So are we saying, Stas, when I rudely interrupted you, as is my want? Nothing. Yeah? Anything good going on? No, I was, I was just... Looking up the A class of recipe that I asked you to look up
+
+[1:32] the, uh, oh, and you're looking through. We got the shows you that have never written a book before, which was me
+
+[1:38] until like a month ago. The publisher comes out with this thing called A Blood. A book layout and design thing. So we're just looking, it just came in the blads for the new cocktail book coming out in November,
+
+[1:51] November, November. You know who else's books are coming out in November. And for those of you that don't, like, it takes forever to get a book out because they, like, even though it's already done, they, they go through a bunch of revisions and copy
+
+[2:04] editing, and then they send it overseas to get printed, and then it has to get shipped back, and they need to have it in the country for a little while before they ship it out,
+
+[2:11] ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. So when you're going through a kind of traditional publishing route. It sure does take a long time. Doesn't that seem like it takes longer than you think of what's does? Yeah definitely. Especially because it's like it's done now. We're done with it. We're done. And then now we like, we just wanted, wanted to come out. But we have some good friends with books coming out in November. I can't remember all of them, like a bunch of good ones, like Brooks. His book is coming out in October, November, the same
+
+[2:33] publisher. That hit pressure cooking book coming out, a bunch of good stuff coming out. Anyways, anything good happen the past couple days? Anything horrible? No? No? No, that's good. Nothing good, nothing horrible. I got this one off of the Twitter sent in. It's not a question. It's more just a, hey, check this out. Uh, from uh, at Jim Guarneri writes to us. Uh, and I haven't told you about this yet, Styles, because I want to get your direct reaction. So, uh, it's it's from, uh, I don't know whether it's live science or live science. the name of the website, and the reporter is Charles Choi, and writes about this. Baby poop bacteria help make healthy sausages and the tag, the tag, the title line of the article. Pooperoni. It's pooperoni. Because what they're doing is some scientist in England were trying to get the most kind of probiotic. So, you know, when you ferment sausages, right? One of the things you're looking for, well, the primary thing you're looking for is a drop in
+
+[3:28] pH so that you can inhibit unhealthy things from growing in it by having
+
+[3:32] the pH low enough that they won't grow. So typically you get lactic acid bacteria, and they also produce that awesome kind of lactic acid
+
+[3:41] flavor, and then the question as a sausage maker is, where do you fall? Do you like more acidic sausage? A lot of Americans tend to do kind of hardcore, like really hard pH dropped fermented stuff. I think because they like the tang and also because, you know, it definitely helps enhance food safety, whereas, you know, I know a lot of people who also like a really kind of mild, less tangy sausage, but they have to play more with, you know, making sure that they're on the safe side.
+
+[4:05] What do you like better? tangy or not tangy on a fermented sausage? Um, I don't think I care. I like most salsa. You like them both? I don't like it when it gets so, so tangy that the meat kind of gets granular and breaks up weird. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, sometimes I like it. There's some like citrus, some citrus dried sausages with like that have like noticeable acid flavor to them other than just
+
+[4:23] lactic, and those I kind of like, even though they're crumbly. whatever. that's not what I'm talking about here. So the point is that these researchers in the UK, I think it's UK, say, well, listen,
+
+[4:34] who's growing black, they don't talk like that there. They're like, listen, we's growing bacteria and sody sausages anyway. So what if we doped it with some probiotic stuff so that we could say that it helps your intestines? You know, helps you poop her out while you're doing it, right? And so they figured who's got a lot of those, you know, probiotic stuff without a lot of pathogens, babies. And so they, uh, they, I guess, like took a bunch of baby diapers. And cultured stuff out and found some bacteria from the baby diapers that they thought were good and they started inoculating it
+
+[5:00] into making the, uh, pooperoni. What your thoughts? No, I'm just reading this. I mean, what do you, well, you know, now that you, like, 1st blush, would you, you wouldn't have a problem with
+
+[5:09] pooperoni? I mean it's been cultured so many times. Yeah, I'd be fine. Yeah, I mean, San Francisco sourdough, like, you know, one of the one of the main, um, uh, back when they did testing, which is decades ago, uh, they tested for strains of uh, bacteria in
+
+[5:22] the uh, in the sourdough starters. And one of them was, you know, its main substrate is the gums of people with periodontal disease.
+
+[5:29] Yes, I have a problem with that. That's even grosser, right? You'd rather you'd rather pooperoni than the periodontal disease, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah, why? I don't know, like, why is it like that? Oh, uh, well, I mean, look, it's so far removed anyway, and like, you know, the, like the most shocking, the most kind of disturbing passage in modernist cuisine for those of you that have
+
+[5:50] it, is the one where they describe the, the experiment done in the submarine, where
+
+[5:56] they take all the sailors in the submarine, and they give them a, a check in the, you know, a butt, a butt check. They say that on error, they check their butts, and they put a phosphorescent powder in on their behinds,
+
+[6:12] right? And didn't tell them about it. And then a day later, they took a black light and walked around the sub, a submarine, whole freaking submarine lit up
+
+[6:22] like, like a freaking club with a black light, like showing the phosphorescent
+
+[6:26] dust all over the room. used to eating that? I'm saying you are so thoroughly coated with like all kind of like nastiness. People touching their face, people touching their mouth, people touching their butt, people touching the ground, and then wiping it all over every
+
+[6:40] surface, and then you touch that surface. I mean, my thing is, like, look, I got mental issues, like, not just cooking issues, people. I have some mental issues on, like, for instance, public restrooms, like, I can't use it, but I know that it's irrational. I know that my fear and disgust of public restrooms and of touching faucets and
+
+[6:57] knobs in public restrooms and areas like that. I know that it's illogical because I know that that stuff is everywhere, but I just can't kick it, you know? I don't know. What about you? You don't like a public restroom either. Nobody likes a public question. If you like a, I mean, like, I don't know, someone can call him. They're like, oh, by the way, if you do have a question related to cooking, call it in
+
+[7:17] two, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Oh, so the tagline is, the baby poop helps actually make the sausage more healthy, more healthy. It also reminds me of the interesting case. Remember that article that McGee sent us about the salt risen bread and the clustradium
+
+[7:32] perfringians and the guys in right after World War one? They had saved some culture from a soldier who had died from gas gangrene, this like
+
+[7:39] custradium that like, you know, like ate this guy's leg and like blew it up with gas and stuff like
+
+[7:42] that and they made bread with it. And they ate it. And they didn't die, apparently. Well, I mean, they're dead now. Now they're dead. At class, Riot wrote in last week, 9 time for the last thing. He says, at cooking issues, if you could read a list of microplane uses that you could think of in the style of John
+
+[8:00] Macheta, that would be great. You remember him? I can't I can't do it. I mean, look, if I had a script and I memorized it. Maybe I could talk as fast as he can, but he's the guy in the FedEx commercial who's like, you know, got
+
+[8:10] it good, got a good deal, deal. Remember this? No, you're too young. Like for any of you that were alive in the 80s. And remember these FedEx commercials. He was like a super fast talking guy on a telephone who would just nonstop like stream of craziness. They're awesome commercials. I just watched them this morning on the YouTube to get a refresher on it and they're still good. I like a commercial. It's still good. No? You know, can't. No, yeah, I'm... All right, so here are some, here are some uses, at class, and these aren't my own uses. These are just, you know, obvious uses for microplane. So by the way, when you buy a microplane before I get into it. You know, there's various different sizes of uh, they're not just physical sizes of the microplane unit itself, but actual uh, differences in the way that the cutting teeth are arranged. They have ribbon slicers. They have coarse slicer, you know, coarse graters, they have fine graters, they have ultrafine for spices and stuff like that. I tend to use mainly just the normal fine one, which I use for zest in that. But I mean, obviously there's a lot more uses if you're getting some of the coarser ones. If you want to great things like apples and carrots. I don't do that much. You use a lot of microplane? Really? Like, you're against it? It just doesn't come out. No, I actually use it for Parmesan cheese. But that's about it. That's it. Okay. So, file, like, most of these things under, under, I didn't come up with any, like, killer ones that I hadn't already known about. I'm sorry about that at class. But anyway, uh, should I, if someone's at clash, I just call them clefts. Yeah. Yeah, class. Yeah, all right. So obviously spices, right? So you got your your nutmeg, your cinnamon, your balonies, long pepper, your grains of salim, or as they say
+
+[9:41] in a wool of jerk. what are hard spices you got? Probably a lot of hearts, but any hard spice that's big enough to hold in your hand, you could do, right? Me, pretty much. I wonder where the cola nuts would be good. I don't really like cola nuts, but I bet you could grate them. Anyways, uh, obviously any hard product, uh, fatty hard product like chocolate or hard cheese, duh, zest, uh, any any kind of zest. I mean, duh, horseradish, if you want a real fluffy horserash, although I wouldn't do it with
+
+[10:05] wasabi because I don't think it can grate it fine enough. However, if you have another mortar and pestle thing, but you don't have like the, like the good old shark skin thing to grade into a fine paste
+
+[10:15] wasabi, a good approximation is to take the wasabi, grade at 1st in a microplane, and then grind it in a regular mortar and pestle, because it breaks down the fibers to the extent that you can get a good paste grind
+
+[10:26] afterwards. Most people don't think about this, but very, very, very few grinding technologies or blending technologies are good at reducing something from a very large particle size to a very small particle size,
+
+[10:39] a whole range of particle size. So sometimes a dual, a dual action thing like that is necessary. Now, the shark skins guys are good because they fundamentally abrade it like sandpaper, but make it easy enough to get the stuff out after it's done. So it's ideal for that. But if you don't have that, you could probably do a pretty good job by microplaning 1st and then mortar and
+
+[10:57] pestling it with a standard Western style mortar and pestle. I wouldn't mean like at home, I don't really use standard mortar and pestles. I have a mochahede I use for things like guacamole and garlic and stuff like that, but it'd be too coarse. I lose so much wasabi and the price would make me so angry. But anyway, horseradish. Other hard stuff like coconuts, but not if you need too much. Can you imagine having to grate all that, all that stuff on the chin, chin, chin? They have the rotary one, but I don't have it. I don't use it. Anyway, also, nut nuts, like larger nuts, if you want like a little bit of grated walnut, grated olvin, things like this. Obviously, things like ginger, fantastic, be with first. Uh, and anything related to ginger, any rhizome related to ginger. So you got your turmeric, you got your galongo, which, you know, people don't use enough fresh galongo. They really don't. Turmeric, we just did a bunch of demos with it. I can understand why you wouldn't want to use fresh turmeric because it stains the hell out of everything. Although I used some, it didn't have as much, you know what I didn't realize is people? turmeric. The amount of flavor seems kind of directly related to the color intensity.
+
+[11:51] So we had a batch that had a very low color intensity, and it had much less flavor per gram than the ones with the higher color intensity. I hadn't realized that. Maybe someone else has some experience for this, and they can tell me. A lot of people do garlic. I don't. You ever garlic? You ever garlic microplane? I've never done it. I mean, I'm sure it would work. But, yeah, I know what I secretly. I hate shopping garlic. I do too. I hate it. I hate it so much. I like handing it off with somebody. I hate it. you know what I hate? I hate that. I hate that weird sugary sticky paper sticks to you and the paper sticks to the knife after you smash it. I just don't like it. I don't like smashing it. I don't like, I just don't like dealing with it. I really don't. I mean, I love the flavor of it, but, you know, maybe I'll try to think. Okay. I've never tried katsobushi, but I'm sure it would work. You know, obviously not for what you normally use it for in Dashi, but if you wanted
+
+[12:40] to like grate a little bit of Kaso Bushi over the top of something, I'm sure that'd be great. Thats dry bonito for you other folks out there. I have tried it with dried Chinese scallops and it's fantastic for that. a finishing thing. I've tried it with botarga, which is great because botarga is so freaking expensive that you want something really accurate, like a
+
+[12:56] microplane that you can make like a fine grating of the botographer over the over there. You like patoga? I do. Both like the mullet and the tuney, like in both. I don't know the difference. Right? Right, mullet and tuna are the two, right? That they do? I know it's mullet, and I think the other one is two. I think it is. I don't buy it anymore, but the price, look, when I was like 15, 16 years ago, I could go to the international grocery on 40th Street, buy it for, like, I don't know, I could buy like a whole row sack. It can't be tuna because it's so small. But I buy like a whole rose sack for like, uh, I want to say like 20 bucks or something like that. You know what I mean? And it's like so expensive now. It's just so damned expensive. It's like a 100, it's like over $100 a pound that stuff. It's crazy. I like it though. Uh, so then you got uh, some cool thing, cool things like a code, they open, they open. They had that frozen foie gras where they froze the lobe and then they microplane the frozen foie gras over the top of stuff. That's a good use. You got your Faran, Adria, did his cauliflower couscous with a microplane where he grates just the tips of the florets off and they look like couscous.
+
+[13:59] People seem to enjoy that. I never done it. Wiley used to microplane. He used to take gelan and set it like gelan, you know, the hydrocolate. He would gel at really high percentages, like 3%, which by the way, if you're not a hydrocoloid head, freaking unheard of, like
+
+[14:13] dance, dance. Dance, dance. But he used to then grate it like Batarga. He would like make different flavors of this, like, I don't know if he still does it, but it's a technique he used for quite a while. Also, frozen meats or fish. If you want like a little bit of that flavor over, you want to incorporate it in, you can just grate with a microplane. And America's test kitchen recommends using it to get the burn off of cookies, if you burn a little bit of the cookies to grate it off. And, you know, you could try that on. I guess you could try it on like bread and toast. Don't you hate it when you get a little bit of the. I just use this sharp. I just like flat scrape blade my knife across the top of toast when it gets burnt. You ever do that? You try to save it and then you give yourself that piece. You give everyone else the good piece and you get yours looks all stupid and scraped with the little chatter marks because you chatter when you scrape the thing across it and you feel like a
+
+[14:56] D bag for wasting the bread, but you didn't buy enough extra, so you can't just like throw it away or feed it to the dog or something. happens all the time, right? hate that. And as usual, the microplane can be used for its intended purpose, woodworking.
+
+[15:08] And just a great growth stars out. Microplanes, they sell them for personal use, and by that it means shaving the dead skin off the bottom of your feet. There's a guy at 54 Eldridge, which is where our lab is, and we call the man coconut
+
+[15:22] feet because he sits outside with a freaking paring knife and carves the calluses off of his
+
+[15:28] feet and it looks like shavings of coconut on the side of the street, right? We never learned his actual name. We just call him coconut foot, right? And the wind picks up. Oh, Jesus. Now you're killing me. Now you're killing me. Let's see. Okay. Travis Hawkins wrote in on the Twitter. Love the crap you give, Nastasia for her friends, tomatoes in the fridge. Yeah, nice, right? Nice. massage is like, great, here comes more punishment. No, no, no punishment for you. Could you do a show on other common kitchen? I thought you said kitchen football? I thought you said refrigerator faux pas. Yeah, we could probably do a whole show on kitchen faux pas, but I was just thinking you made refrigerator. Don't put, like, don't go to get mozzarella. I'll just do some refrigerator stuff for you. Don't go to, uh, don't go to the, you know, buy your fresh mozzarella and then put it in the fridge unless you really are an enemy of quality. Like, do you don't put fresh mozz oil in the fridge? you? No, because you're going to eat it that day anyway. I mean, and you can leave it out the whole damn day. It's going to change a little bit, but the texture is better. I'd rather have it take on a little bit of a tang, then have it get its texture ruined by being in the fridge. Now, theoretically, if you let that giant ball of mozzarella temper out all the way through to room temperature, it
+
+[16:36] will, they say get back to where it was, but I don't believe it. I've done side by side taste tests, and the refrigerator just ruins it. So don't put that there. Actually, um, if you, okay, now here's where Nastasia's like, daddy, daddy, mom, man, if you happen to have a, a wine cooler or a place of that temperature, I store usually all of my cheese that way instead of storing it in the
+
+[16:57] fridge because it's much faster, and I hate it when someone takes a nice piece of cheese, and they leave it in the fridge, and they forget to pull it out, you know you're going to forget to pull it out. Like, if you're me, like, I'll pull that crap out hours beforehand. like, like, at lunchtime. If I know I have nice cheese and it's been in the fridge. I'm like, I'm going to pull that sucker out like around lunchtime so that like right before dinner and when we want to eat the. Are you before cheese before dinner cheese or after dinner cheese? Really? I, when I'm out, when I, like when I'm home, I like dinner, I did cheese beforehand. When I'm out, I really like a cheese plate at the end of the meal. And
+
+[17:28] also, I obviously like Stilton at the end of meal because that's when I want my port. I want my port at the end of the meal and port and still. Hey, look, I know it's tripe, but that is one of the that is one of the few straight up delicious food pairings in the world where food wine pairings. Like most food and wine pairings, people are like, no, that one is really actually good. Do you like Port and Stood? It's good. Walnuts? Port Stilton? Okay. Uh, so cheese. Avocados do not store them in the fridge until they're ripe. Once they're ripe, you may store them in the fridge, but do not put a freaking baseball hard avocado in the fridge. Nastache has a California girl can appreciate this. Well, you probably like swimming in avocados. Yeah, we had a huge tree. Yeah. You know, like, so you never had the situation happen like you do here where you're like, I need one tonight and they're all hard. And they're all, well, I don't buy, I don't shop in those fancy $5 avocado neighborhoods. Like, down by you? You got to go to styles, farmers. No, no, even those like you, they can be when they're out of season. Yeah, well, like, luckily, I live in a neighborhood that plows through avocados like the end of the world is coming, so there's a huge amount of competition for the consumers, avocado dollars in my neighborhood. And so I never pay more than, like, at tops,
+
+[18:39] like at the worst of times, 250 for the Haas, you know, and sometimes much, much less, like ¢99 Anyway, whatever. Yeah, California people are like laughing. Like, they're free for me. I live in California or in Florida. You know what I mean? Whatever. You know, we have our advantages out here. Hey, you moved out here. You feel more like a New Yorker? Yeah, I know, I know. Right now, I don't know what our advantage is. Well, we don't have weather advantages. I mean, like, you know, just whatever. I've never I mean, I have lived in California, but I was too young to remember it. Coffee. Do not store coffee in the fridge. I don't mean the beverage. I mean, you know, the product. You're going to get condensation as it comes in and out of the fridge, or the freezer, and the water is going to do you damage. Don't do that. Do not, do not store bread in the fridge. holy crap. How many times have you seen people do this? Why would you put bread in the fridge? It's like, it's, it's, refrigeration is the,
+
+[19:32] like, retrogradation of starch is vastly, vastly sped up by
+
+[19:37] refrigeration. And I've said it before on the show a couple of times. So general rule of thumb is that freezing of bread, right? is, uh, you need to do it rapidly because just the just the amount of time that it stays in the unfrozen zone before it freezes in that horrible
+
+[19:53] retrogradation, uh, like heavy zone right around refrigeration temperatures. The amount of time it spends there just as it's freezing and thawing out again is equivalent to roughly a full days of
+
+[20:04] staling, sitting on your counter. So do not store breads unless they're so jacked with like, you know, emulsifiers and anti-staling agents like wonder bread that it doesn't really freaking matter. That doesn't really matter. I mean, that's more of like a miracle of chemistry than bread, right? Uh, Potatoes, do not store potatoes in the fridge unless you don't mind the fact that they're going to increase their sugar content.
+
+[20:25] And so then if you're going to fry them or something like that, they'll get overly brown. If you don't care about that, do whatever you like. It's a waste of freaking space to store, you know, I don't know. I don't know which of you people out there have so much freaking space that you can just throw £5 bags of potatoes into your fridge without breaking a sweat, but if you're that person and you're not
+
+[20:41] going to fry them and you're not worried about the extra sugar content and you're an enemy of quality, go ahead and do it. Many herbs should not be stored in the refrigerator if you're
+
+[20:49] going to do long-term storage. I do this because, I don't know, because I'm a jerk, but you know, you get the herbs, you bring them home, you put them in a plastic bag, you throw them in the thing, and
+
+[20:57] 2 days later, what happens? They get that weird glossy, gross look. They smell like a swamp and you've got tissue damage where they get all waterlogged. You know what I'm talking about, stars, right? Better to do what Nastasia does at 54 Eldridge, which is she puts a glass of water and she sticks the herb into it and it sits there for, you know, a bazillion years. Now, she has the unfortunate habit of then never using the freaking herb and... Yeah, well, kudos to that. That's actually a good instinct. Uh, onion. I don't like storing onions in the in the fridge. I'm just worried it's going to transfer. I don't know, I just don't do it. I don't know that it's actually bad, although some people say it is. never had a nightmare happen and people have stored onions in my fridge, but I don't do it. Um, here's a reverse foat paw. stuff you should store in your fridge, but maybe don't. Apples, store your apples in the fridge. As soon as you get apples, home, store them in the fridge. If you pick apples, store them in the fridge. Apples, when they're at room temperature, they're respiring. Do I hate that word? I kind of like it respire. They're, uh, and what's happening is, is they're um, losing malic acid. right? Uh, and uh, and changing and ripening on the thing. So, like, if you, if you want to, you know, have it go, if you want to lose your texture, if you want it to go overripe on you, if you want to lose the acid and
+
+[22:16] very few cooks want to lose acid in an apple, then by all means,
+
+[22:21] uh, you know, don't put it in the fridge. But if you want it, if you want to keep those flavors, it's like we had those ash leaves, kernels in, those really expensive apples, and they got left out of the
+
+[22:29] walk in because someone's like, oh, you don't need to refrigerate those apples because they're not going to go bad. And in fact, we took, you know, a lot of money in a very fancy
+
+[22:37] apple and in short order, we erased a lot of its awesome characteristics because it went from being kind of at
+
+[22:43] peak with its good acid content to being lower in acid than I liked and a little overripe. And as you know, like apples when they get overripe, they get a little bit floral, they end up
+
+[22:53] tasting, not necessarily in a good way, but more like a Fuji. You know how Fujis have that kind of floral sugary taste. They tend to go in that kind of direction. And of course they get mealier, which doesn't matter to me because I'm going to juice the hell out of them anyway, but it's amazing to me how otherwise trained food professionals can't taste around the texture of an apple.
+
+[23:10] It's inherently bad. Citrus. Citrus, you can keep it outside of the fridge, but the quality of it stays better if it's in the fridge. Now, if you have cases of lime sitting around, it's not reasonable to put them in the fridge, fine. But if you have a very expensive, uh, you know, setsuma or something like this and you want to maintain its quality, uh, I would keep it in the fridge just to maintain its quality. Grapefruit, especially I think she needs to be refrigerated to maintain its quality, otherwise the flavor starts to go. At least I've read about it. I don't have as much, and sweet corn, especially older styles, sweet corns that aren't like have like all the super sweet jeans in them, the colder they are, the better they'll keep their sweetness. The best thing to do is not store the suckers at all. to buy those suckers and cook them right away. That's the best thing, right? So I was like, I don't care. Okay. right. Should we take a break? Yeah. Let's go to commercial break. Come right back with the cooking issues.
+
+[24:07] Wide Oak Pastors is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat
+
+[24:20] abattoir, or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir,
+
+[24:26] a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods, to deliver our high quality meat and poultry, all the way to Princeton, New
+
+[24:35] Jersey. One family, one farm, 5 generations, 145 years, a full circle return to sustainable
+
+[24:43] land stewardship, a humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oakpastures.com. Oh, yeah, I love the way it says abattoir. Abattoir. Speaking of abattoir, the, what do you like? Do you like slaughterhouse better or you like abattoir? Slaughterhouse. Really? I love these. one of the things I like about style. She's like, give me the blunt stuff. blunt. You know what I mean? Like, much better to go blunt. And speaking of blunt, there was on Sunday, a, I don't
+
+[25:24] know, it's a piece, what is it? not an opinion piece, it's just an article in the New York Times, about a slaughterhouse in San
+
+[25:33] Francisco, and her 1st name just went out of my head. Nyman, one of the owners of Nyman Ranch. Christoph? No, no, no. This is like a blog. No, no, anyway, I'll figure it out. Anyway, she wrote an article on it because the slaughterhouse that they use was affected and there was a recall on all the meat that was slaughtered in 2013 at this slaughterhouse in the Bay Area.
+
+[25:56] And because there was some, there was some unsound cows that had been slaughtered in that place. And so the USD response was to initiate a facility wide recall. Even though, right, that the cows that Nyman
+
+[26:12] Ranch had slaughtered there, are, you know, were totally fine and were under a lot of scrutiny. And she was saying how ineffective our legislation is at dealing with situations like this. So I'm not going to get into the details of it, but I encourage you to go to the New York Times. I think it was on Sunday and look it up and check out kind of what's going on with regulations and the way that it's harming
+
+[26:37] small scale producers who are trying to do the right thing by producing humane, sustainable meat. Color, you're on the air. Yeah, Dave, Dan, Seattle. Couple of questions. Both related to ramen. First of all, are you familiar with Yuzu Kashu, the Japanese citrus pepper paste? Yes, I mean, I don't use it much myself, but yeah, I'm familiar with it. Okay. I've just, I've gone crazy for the stuff and I'm using a ton of it. And I mostly use it. I mostly sous vide pork with it,
+
+[27:12] which if you have never tried that, I recommend it. But the stuff is crushingly expensive in the quantities that I'm using it in. And when you cook the heck out of it for 24, 36 hours, I'm thinking that some subtly gets lost anyway. Do you off the top of your head have an idea about how to go about faking this from orange juice rind and whatever? Well, that's the thing. Yuzu has a very particular flavor and it, you know, uh, it has to do with, uh, the, you know, not just the fruit itself, but the oils that are in the rind,
+
+[27:44] right? So there are other citruses that are available and on the west coast. I mean, there are people who produce Yuzu commercially, and it would probably be, I mean, it's still fantastically expensive. At the last time we bought some, I forget what it was some unconscionable amount of money, like a couple dollars per fruit or something like that.
+
+[28:04] But, um, it's definitely that would be a cheaper way, but I, I've never found, I found other citrus, like weird citrus. Gene Lester is a, you know, a collector of citrus in California and
+
+[28:17] Watsonville. And, you know, Nastasia and Harold McGee and I went over to his ranch and we tasted a bunch of stuff and they, um, he had some citrus that
+
+[28:25] like, that like was, he had Yuzu, which was delicious. He had bergamot, which was great, but he also had like weird citrus that I've never had
+
+[28:32] before that had some of these like strange oils in them that would make a good substitute, but I can't think of anything offhand. I am sure, though, that this is one of those things that hopefully one of our listeners will tweet on in
+
+[28:46] something, some recommendation that they have to to get it done. Um, But, you know, it might be cheaper. Like, how much do they charge for it? It's 2 or $3 an ounce in the in the 3 ounce things that they'll sell little jars that they'll sell it to you in? And it's a blend of yuzu, Tokurashi, and then I'm salt. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you could fake it. You know what? We'll figure out how to fake. I'm sure if you can find a supply of the Yuzu. It might actually be cheaper just to make it, you know? because they're definitely upselling you on it. You know where they make it? Do they make it stateside or are they shipping in? I believe the stuff I'm buying is from Japan. I mean, you can't find an English letter on the box, aren't we? Yeah, so you're, you mean, look, you're just getting ruined by like everything there. Like the cost of producing Yuzu over there, like how crappy our dollar is versus the yen in terms of buying power over there and the shipping. You're just getting it every which way on that. So if you could find like a California producer of Yuzu, uh, you know, I'm sure that there's someone that that ships the fruit up there, you could probably adjust the flavor to however you want. You know what I mean? And you could probably come in way under the line on that. I just never done it. So I, you know, I hesitate to give you any recommendations right off the bat. You know what I mean? So, but you think it would be a lot, if I can figure out where to buy an entire case of Yuzu, it would, you think it would be quite a bit cheaper? Oh, a case of Yuzu is going to set you back. One time, I forget some Japanese chef was doing Star Chefs, and Nils and I, he ordered 2 uses, he ordered, he ordered 2 yuzu, and they gave him 2 cases instead, and Nils and I just took that thing, and we made clarified,
+
+[30:25] like, fresh clarified yuzu, and did carbonated cocktails with it. But, I mean, I'm pretty sure we blasted through a couple $100 a Yuzu in that on that day. I mean, you're going to you're still probably going to be buying them by the by the piece. I don't know they, I don't know you're going to want to invest in a caseload yet, but, you know, like, look, out here, you can buy, uh, Yuzu buy the piece for a couple bucks apiece at, um, at some of the
+
+[30:49] Japanese uh, markets. The Japanese markets will have, you know, even ones that just do prepared foods that
+
+[30:54] serve that sell any kind of Japanese products for cooking away. Usually you'll have one or 2 sitting around. Maybe if you're lucky, some Sudachi to mess around with, which are also expensive and delicious. All right, thank you very much. That's certainly enough to start on on that one. Related question. I'm trying to figure out fresh ramen noodles. Um, and I've got a couple of decent recipes for, I mean, the actual, you know, how much, uh,
+
+[31:22] how much flour, how much lime water, how much gluten, got a yada? Right. But I've got a brand new meat grinder that comes with the larger whole disk is about the right size. Do you have an opinion whether the pressure is to push dough through that would just blow the thing apart? Yeah, I am I am very skeptical that that will work just because I've never seen anyone do pasta in the
+
+[31:53] meat grinder, and I know that the pasta extruder attachment for the KitchenAids doesn't really do much of anything at all.
+
+[32:01] I've had that unfortunate experience, yes. Yeah, I know, it's no, it's no good. I mean, every, you know, everyone wishes we had the, you know, what the ideas
+
+[32:10] and food guys have, which is that Arco Bellino or similar extruder. Um, what's the hydration on the ramen noodle recipe that you have? I would have to look it up, but it's fairly high. I mean, there's quite a bit of water in it. Yeah, and my, my, my brain is erased now. Is it, is it steam or boiled before fry or fry and then steam? I always forget, and then dry. I think it's I think it's quick steamer or boil, then fry, then dry, I think. My brain is totally erased on this though. Well, the recipe I have, which is actually off an excellent blog called Tessa's Japanese kitchen or something close to
+
+[32:50] that. Right. Um, She makes the noodles fresh and just boils, but I mean, I mean, I don't think that is itself a mild
+
+[32:58] simplification of the full deal. Yeah, you need a fry step. Well, I guess maybe not. Like, if you're going to make it fresh, What am I talking about? Like, I guess not. Like, but you know, the commercial one, they're, like, the ramen noodle that, you know, we grow up with, they're fried to expel the water and get a little grease in so that they absorb a lot of the water from whatever they're placed in.
+
+[33:16] You know what I mean? So they have a fry step involved with it. But, you know, perhaps, you know, this is something I would, I would defer to someone with actual, uh, cultural experience as opposed to, you know, just, you know, an American's experience of what ramen is
+
+[33:31] like. Um, So I don't know, maybe that's the case. Maybe a fry step is not required. But I know commercially that's what's done. I'm just not sure how much that's preservation and whatnot. But, um, all right, so, but, regardless, the meat grinder thing is unlikely to work. Hey, look, I don't think you're going to ruin the meat grinder. I just think it's not going to work. Okay, so you think it would just not make noodles. Yeah, well, what are you attaching the meat grinder to? What kind is it, is it standalone with a big, powerful motor? Yeah, it's a standalone half. Okay, I've, I had one KitchenAid. Tack on meat grinder, it lasted like 4 or 5 years. It was great. I mean, it wasn't great, but it was perfectly adequate. It finally died. I literally wore the bearings out of the bushings out in it. Yeah, well, when I, but, oh, calm down again. But then the new one, um, cracked in a month. They changed it cheap into something. So I bought a Cabella's half horsepower. And, um, I
+
+[34:33] mean, if it bogs down. I mean here's my here's my thing. If the motor starts bogging down and heating up, then obviously I'd hold back on it. But I think you're going to be all right. You know, it's all right to test it. I't think you're going to shatter it. as long as the gear's in it. assuming it's geared down, which it has to be. Otherwise, it would go crazy. Assuming the gears are of some sort of metal, and you don't crush it hard fast. You know what I mean? Like you, you kind of sneak up on it a little bit. I think you're going to be all right. I mean, most of the time when, you know, gears breaking mechanisms like that, it's because of a hard stop, you know? All right, so you don't. It's not likely, but you don't think it will result in metal parts flying across the road. I do not think it will. I mean, I won't hold you to that. All right, very, and you're gonna obviously want to, um, you're gonna need some method to space it that allows you to remove the, uh, the cutting blade. From the inside of the grinder. Yeah, I mean, I, I can surely find something to stick, I mean. Yeah, or double, you could double plate it. No, because it'll rotate. I think I can just use stainless steel washers. Yeah, all right. Yeah. you know, you don't want the blade in there because obviously that's going to be hacking the stuff right when you want it to be whole.
+
+[35:51] thank you very much All righty. good luck with it Alrighty. We have a question in from Lucas. Lucas. We still need to cook his meat. Yes, we need to cook his meat. Yeah. We most certainly need. We should do that soon. We just got a lot of stuff off our plate. We can do that soon. As soon as we as soon as we get the prototype approved for the seers all, it's going to be a load off my mind. I can start thinking about cooking again. You know what I mean? doing some real cooking. Hi, Natasha, Dave, Jack, Joe, and Evan now. As you know, I love the show, a longtime listener. I heard about Dave's restaurant quality espresso machine he bought from a from an Italian mobster while fighting rat infestation. True story, but what I don't think I mentioned is that the guy that I paid to take
+
+[36:34] at home in my car was a guy who had just gotten out of Rikers for dealing crack and was setting up a food truck
+
+[36:42] downtown. And I accidentally, he was like a weird guy. refused to refer to me as anything but white boy. And like the, and I don't know, I paid him 20 bucks to take it home because when you buy stuff at an auction, it's as
+
+[36:54] his wear is, right? You don't get to choose, you know, you got to get that thing out of there right now. And I accidentally left the pump. you know, the actual, like, you know, the, um, it's a rotary vein pump that they use in espresso machines, real ones. And I left it in his freaking car. So I had to go out there to his house, which was craziness, craziness to get it. But, you know, he actually, he's a nice guy. I mean, look, I mean, other than the, other than the doing time for dealing crack. He seemed like a, and calling me white boy incessantly. Did you have to call him and say this is white boy? I left my. I literally did. Like, I forget, like, why I even had the guy's number or was able to find
+
+[37:32] him. Like, because he, I don't know, he was like, you know, look up my food truck or whatever, like this, but, like, I was like, hey,
+
+[37:38] remember white boy with the espresso machine? I was like, which is it's a, yeah, it's uncomfortable thing to have to refer to yourself as in the therapy,
+
+[37:48] whatever anyway. Okay, well, fighting rat infestation. I recently bought a house outside of the village and suddenly found myself in need of
+
+[37:56] making coffee. I drink exclusively espresso and wanted to follow in day steps and buy something used, possibly cheap. The question I have is most of the machines I saw are advertising 450 watts of power consumption. I assume this is during the heating process, not once it's just kept on standing alone. Basically, how much power does this thing need on a regular basis? And did you change the water tank to a smaller one? Do you keep it on all the time? Can you use it to can you use it to modify it, to operate it without access to water, you know, fresh water on
+
+[38:28] tap? I would love to have it in the living or dining room rather than the kitchen. The 2nd completely unrelated question I want is to work on my Indian cooking. Where do you buy good quality spices in the city? I know of le what in Midtown, but this is already mixed spices and part of the fun of Indian cooking is mixing them
+
+[38:44] yourself, kind of regards Lucas. Let's go in reverse over here. So for spices, I don't really have a source of like the super highest quality stuff. You know, I end up buying most of my spices at dual specialty shop on 1st Avenue
+
+[38:57] and like around 6 or something like that or 7th. and Kalustians. And then there's another couple of spice shops that are right around Kalustians, you know, in the 20s on Lex. But, uh, You know, I love those stores and I, you know, I'm not saying anything negative about them, but sometimes they, you know, this stuff's been sitting around a
+
+[39:14] lot and, you know, Piper and I used to joke around that everything has like the Kalustians smell, which is not, oh,
+
+[39:19] it's not an insult. It's just like they got a lot of spices hanging around there and not all the product moves all the time. But if you're buying whole products there, a lot of times you can get really, you know,
+
+[39:27] high quality stuff. And for instance, I know dual specialty sometimes has the acid fetida, the
+
+[39:33] hang, in kind of these block chunks and I find, and you might, hey, microplane. There's another microplane thing, acifeta, the chunks of Hing, uh, when it's in that chunk form, even though I think they still have it mixed with
+
+[39:44] fenigreek and all that crap. It's just much less accurate and better in that format. Now, on the coffee machines. Here is here is the thing. Uh, it uses a boatload of power. There, there, all of those, so you're looking at a 2 group or 3 group machine. You can get a single group espresso machine. Now, the newer ones are, you know, they're fantastically expensive, like the La Mart Soco single groups. The single group espresso machines, by and large, you can run those things off of 120
+
+[40:14] volts single phase, and they're going to pull somewhere in the area of 1500 watts or something like that, right? So doable off of a normal plug. They think they want you to use a 20 amp plug off of 120, but it's not 100% necessary. Once you're in a 2 group or situation, or more, you're going to need, you're going to need 240. And I think maybe even some of the bigger ones might need 208, but I'm not sure. The one that I had, which is a dual group Ranchillio, required, you know, 220 slash, whatever, 240, regular, you know, regular power, not 3 phase or anything like this.
+
+[40:47] Now, the, the thing is, you have to, the advantage of these large machines is that they have a much more stable temperature profile in the
+
+[41:00] shot than a smaller machine. And the reason is that the way a traditional heat exchanger, commercial espresso machine, the way it regulates itself is by having a very, very large thermal mass.
+
+[41:14] And so they dump a lot of heat into it and they radiate a lot of heat out of it. And so and that's the way the way it does it. And the bigger the ship, like the less it steers around with little changes, like pulling a shot here or there. So in an old style espresso machine, in other words, old style, meaning like a heat exchange, espresso machine, and not like some PID, dual boiler, blah, blah,
+
+[41:37] blah, blah. Although I have to say, I've had shots out of some of those and I still think that I like the bigger machines end up being better. But if you were to taste the same barista, the same make of machine, the same everything, except for the barista was pulling one shot out of a single
+
+[41:54] group and one shot out of a 2 group. Odds are the shot out of the 2 group is going to be more consistent and better. That's just the way it is. I don't think you get that much of an advantage if you're really only pulling one shot at a time out of a 3 group or more. I think that once you get up to a 2 group espresso machine, the stability, the temperature stability is just a lot better now, but it does throw a lot of heat out. In my experience from a 2 group from the 80s, which is what I was using, uh, I had around a 15 minute heat up time.
+
+[42:25] Now everyone's going to disagree and says that it takes longer for it to get stable and all this, but whatever. Give yourself a half hour, put it on a timer, have it set to turn on a half hour before you get up in the
+
+[42:34] morning and have it go on. And if you, you know, you shoot hot water through it, you can heat the heads up, you know, relatively quickly, you don't have to sit there and wait for everything to stabilize because you
+
+[42:43] can pump water through it. Now, I'm about to discourage you from having it in your living room and here's
+
+[42:49] why. It's messy. So you need a knock box and you have those grinds everywhere. You're gonna want a source of water to wipe down the grinds and to get all that stuff out and to rinse out the, uh, to rinse out
+
+[43:02] your, your, um, the porta filter, uh, and all this other stuff. So, you know, unless you can run a small amount of water near the machine,
+
+[43:11] like I, I always want it near the sink so I can, you know, rinse the parts when they're done. I can scrub underneath with a scotch bright when it's done. It's just much more convenient to have it in a kitchen setting. And having that sucker plumbed into the water supply through a filter is
+
+[43:27] life-changingly awesome. Now, you can get around that, you can take, and you could install fundamentally what's like a water cooler with a gravity feed into a pump, you know, or from a corny keg into the rotary vein pump that those machines use, and you can run it off a gravity feed with filtered water in, you know, in a living room, but then you have to figure out a way to get rid of the wastewater as
+
+[43:49] well, because every time you pull a shot, when the, uh, when the three-way, the solenoid kicks in, you're shooting a little bit of water
+
+[43:55] out, every time you clean it, you're shooting water out. When you're putting the blind in to clean it, do all that stuff, you're shooting water out. So it tends to dump a bunch of water, and you need someplace for that to go. And so you either have some sort of a, like an improvised larger drip tray, or you have it plumbed into, so wherever your dishwasher goes in, I have a separate takeoff where my dishwasher goes in.
+
+[44:16] I have a condensate pump that sits on the floor of my kitchen underneath the sink. The espresso machine gravity feeds into the condensate pump, and then the
+
+[44:24] conitate pump pops it through a check valve so I don't get backsplashing into the drain line right next to where my washing machine drains into the tap.
+
+[44:32] And that's how I do it. That's what I'd recommend. I don't know technically because it's been a long time, so I couldn't, I now have one that runs on 120 because I don't have, you know, I don't have 220 in
+
+[44:42] my in my apartment. So I couldn't throw an ammeter across my old guy, but they do suck power at the get go. I don't know what their steady state usages, but once they're heated up, they don't use as much, you can, you can feel when it clicks in and
+
+[44:56] when it doesn't, you can see there's a pressure stat and the way that the espresso, those espresso machines work is, is that they, they come on
+
+[45:02] when uh, the pressure stat shows that the boiler pressure is drop below a certain specified pressure. Anyways, so good luck with that. Is that right? Yeah, they have like five. What time is it? 49. 49. I got like 6 minutes. So I got, I got, I got 10, but you're going to give me 5 because you know I'm going to go for 10 anyway. 55 afterwards? No, Jeebus. All right, so I'm going to have to go fast. Hi. Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and Joe. I asked the questions a couple weeks back about the off taste in Agar. I went back to telephone brand. Flavor gone. Good. Using the same juice. I was using uh, uh, molecule, the brand. He, he wrote our molecule, but literally the brand is molecule R. Get it? Molecular, mullet mop, brand before because they sold in bulk. I tasted the agar alone and it's nasty stuff. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Actually, the same brand my mom used when I was a kid. Go figure. Hey, telephone, generation to generation, telephone's the best. Call up your friends. Use a telephone. You know what? Like, I don't even like, do you like, do you like that package? Like, I'm so used to that package. Everyone likes it. Oh, I love it. I like telephone. I just like the, I like, you know, it's more expensive, I guess, than buying it in bulk, but
+
+[46:16] whatever. telephone. Anyways, I have a few questions about pectinex and adding body to low alcohol drinks. As a brewer. I've been using a generic powdered pectic enzyme from the homebrew store. Is there any benefit to using Pectinex Ultra SPL or are all Pectinaces created equal? No, they are not. Uh, Thomas. This is Thomas from San Francisco. They are not created equal. So, The one you're using in brewing is probably optimized fine for whatever it's
+
+[46:45] for there. But the the, the enzyme that I use, the ultra SPL, is very broad-based. It's not a single enzyme, in other words. What they are is they're a group of enzymes that are produced by a particular strain of, I believe, aspergillis that the good folks at Novozyme have isolated, that produces a rather
+
+[47:06] nonspecific broad range, pectinase and hemicellulase and some, not much, cellulase activity. So it's much more of a like an enzymatic baseball bat to use the SPL. So when I called up Nova Zymes years ago when I was trying to figure out kind of what enzymes to use, because we've been using something called Pectinex Smash, XXL, which is optimized for Apple industry to increase the yield out of Apple
+
+[47:34] pomice when they're pressing to get juice. Uh, and optimized for that. And she literally, she said to me, look, you know, if you're only going to use one enzyme, just use the
+
+[47:44] SPL. That does everything that anything else is going to do. It's just like, it just, it just takes care of it all. It's not optimized for any one industry. And so perhaps it's possibly more expensive on a per liter basis, but you're not using that much of it. non-industrial, and it works on everything. So they use that in like olives to increase yield out of olives. They use that in, you could use it in apples. I use in apples all the time. It's just really broad range stuff. And so, no, they're not all, same with amylaces. Like a lot of people, uh, you know, use amylase to break things down, uh, and they're not all the same either. Uh, you know, just talk to the folks who convert uh, potatoes into into vodka without doing, you know, using any sort of mash and stuff. It's all just with the right choice of enzymes to get, you know, as complete conversion as humanly possible. Okay. Secondly, do you have any recommendations for ways to add body to low alcohol by volume drinks, i.e. back sweetening citers,
+
+[48:40] et cetera. I'm looking for something with high body effects, but low sweetening. So far, I've been using beet sugar with good results, but wanted to see if you had any thoughts on the subject. Thanks for all the work you do, Thomas, from San Francisco. Okay, so the, uh, the issue here is that, um, the issue is that if you're adding sugar, you can use sugar, but it's going to make it sweeter, you want it less
+
+[49:00] sweet. Also, if you're going to store something for a long time that has live yeast it, obviously the sugar is going to ferment. And so, you know, a lot of times people want to add for bodying for sweetness now, for sweetness in body. They add a non-fermentable sugar like Zylatol. Too much xylotol, and it runs through you like, well, like crap through a tingos or it's crap through a goose. That's what Patton said, right? We're gonna run through them like crap through a goose. isn't that what he said? Something like that. Anyways. And oh, crap does run through geese. Man, I hate geese. Anyway, they're good. But the um, point is that uh, you want it non-sweet. So what you're going to want to do, I think, is find something like glucose syrup. Now, glucose syrup is actually, it has some glucose in it, which is sweet, but it's also got a lot of dextrins in it, things like, you know,
+
+[49:44] like higher order polysaccharides that are roughly tasteless, but add a lot of body. And as a side benefit, they're not very fermentable. So a lot of times when I want to make something very dense, like a
+
+[49:54] liquid very dense without using, without making it sweet, I'll put in glucose syrup. Uh, and you look, you want like a very low DE, the dextrose equivalent on the glucose syrup, because that means that, you know, very little of it's been converted all the way to glucose, and you have a lot of,
+
+[50:09] uh, you know, larger chain polysaccharides that are going to add a lot of body, but aren't going to add any sweetness at all.
+
+[50:15] Glucose syrup is, you know, very dully sweet, very, very dully sweet. And you can buy it at, you know, pastry supply houses.
+
+[50:21] Okay, uh, now, uh, Tony, you asked me a question about soda and cocktails. I don't know if I'm going to have time to get to it. Uh, so I'm going to get you next time, uh, and I'll get you some more information about value. Tony from Brazil, our friend from Brazil, wrote in to ask about carbonated cocktails on tap, and it's going to take me too long to go into the rant on carbonated cocktails to deal with here.
+
+[50:42] Moustache is like shuddering just thinking about it. So put it on next week's topic and we'll talk about it. But Sam, I've missed you 2 weeks in a
+
+[50:52] row, and I thought I was going to be able to get Mark Ladner on to discuss it, but I couldn't make it work. So I'm going to just read your question. give you some brief thoughts right now. What's the best approach for homemade pasta sheets in lasagna bolognese? How do you like that? Bolognese. Say it with me, sis. Come on. All right. Marcello Hazan has you pre-blanch and rinse the pasta beforehand to combat. Sogginess. Is this necessary? Compared to classic pasta dough recipe of one-ish cups of flour for about one egg. How do other pasta does compare, like Keller's 12 egg yolk pasta, or I've read 7, or gluten dough pasta found in modern cuisine at home? Thanks, Sam. Here's the deal. Yeah, you want to pre-cook that to form the structure. I should say I've never done it without cooking it, but I've always cooked lasagna before I've, you know, fresh lasagna before I've put it into, into, because you want the protein to set and you want to have it bind and coagulate so that it doesn't get all,
+
+[51:46] all, I'm trying to think of a non, uh, a word I can use with that. non-cursing word. Anyway, shit yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you want it to be, okay. okay. So, but I don't know that for a fact. That's a question, like, maybe Stas can just ask Mark and report back next week. But the thing on egg yolks versus eggs, I did a lot of research on this one, and there's some interesting articles on it. So if you look on the internet, most people will tell you that aside from the flavor and the color that
+
+[52:12] you that you get in egg yolk. So a lot of people say that if you do eight, I've always, by the way, this is just, you know, for me, just so you know where I'm coming from. I was always a whole egg guy. I never, I never did egg yolks, uh, and I never did egg whites. I always use hold eggs, always. And I would typically use one egg for every cup of flour, and then I would add enough water to get the hydration where I wanted. That's just what I've always done, you know, since since I've started, you know, making pasta in my 20s. So the uh, but it's a very interesting thing. Now, if you look on the internet, a lot of people who are, you know, cooking, you know, practically
+
+[52:46] cooking will tell you that the, um, the egg yolk one is harder, right? And like, you know, harder to need and chewier and stuff like this. But I think they're making a fundamental uh mental error and that is this. Egg yolk is, has much less water in it than an egg white does. Like the water content of an egg yolk is only like somewhere close
+
+[53:09] to, you know, the solids are high. The solids are in the 50% range, when you include the fats and proteins and everything like that, there's not nearly as much water in an egg yolk as there is in an egg white.
+
+[53:20] So in a study of, um, in a study that you can go
+
+[53:26] read, I'm trying to get it to you before, uh, they rip the microphone off of me. If you go to, uh, modeling a fresh egg pasta characteristics for egg content and albumen to yolk ratio by, uh, Christina, alampreci, uh, from this was in the Journal of Food Engineering in
+
+[53:46] 2009, and another good, uh, uh, getting the name of it for you. Uh, for cooking of it is the influence of hydrothermal treatment on realological and cooking characteristics of fresh egg pasta by
+
+[54:00] a uh, nuviari. But if you go to that 1st egg one, They say that actually, if you adjust for the amount of water that's in the egg product that you're doing, that adding egg increases the structure of the
+
+[54:14] dove, something like fresh pasta because you're increasing the protein content. And in fact, the protein content, the most important one of them is from the white, is the ovalbumen. And that's what's forming the structure that's causing it to be firmer and have that firmer feeling of an egg pasta. Now, the homemade rather egg pasta, right? So if you account for the water, the more egg yolk that you add,
+
+[54:36] right? The less firm it is, and the less firm it is when it's cooked, the softer it
+
+[54:43] is and the radically higher the fat content is. My feeling is, is that, is that people who say it's harder are making a lower hydration dough than they would normally make by using egg yolks and taking advantage of the plasticizing effect and the lubricating effect of the fat
+
+[54:58] in the egg yolk and it's allowing them to make what they can, uh, uh, a more workable dough that is firmer because it's going to have a fundamentally lower moisture content. And that's my feeling, but I'm going to try to do a little more research on it and get back to
+
+[55:10] it on next week or maybe if we can get Mark. And on the way out, we had a final call in, we actually someone sent us this on the Twitter beforehand,
+
+[55:20] but Don't tell them why, just tell them to call it. All right. Oh, yeah. I'm not going to tell you, but I'm not going to tell you why to do this, all right? But Damon Cisco wants you to call. Where's the numbers, Daz? Do you have it on the thing? The number got erased off my phone. Oh, no. I have it. hold on. All right. St is going to tell you to dial this number. It's not, it's not unpleasant. It's not it's not pornographic. charge you any money. It doesn't cost any money. Nastasia is about to read you a telephone number. And when she reads it, I want you to write this number down and then I want you to call it. 719-266-2837. One more time. 719-266-2837. Have a good week, cooking issues.
+
+[56:06] Cooking your shoes. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[56:18] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey farms.com. I'm Mike Helimanco from Food Talk. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Ages. This is Dave Arn, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from the Heritage Radio Network on Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday from roughly 12,
+
+[0:41] the roughly 1245, a little bit late today, kind of as normal. Join in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Good. And what do we got there in the engineering? We got Jack. And Evan. Hey, Evan. Yeah, I rushed in so quickly because I was late that a lot of, you know what? The weather must be changing because I saw a lot of signs of illicit love on the
+
+[1:02] streets walking over here in Bushwick. Really? Do you miss? Do you miss the overnight detritus on the streets of Bushwick now that you've moved to Manhattan? You're moving back to Bushwick? No, bedsty. Oh, I noticed that you didn't change your your Twitter, whatever in the hell it's called, whatever in the hell. It still says Bushwick. It still says Bushwick. It's up slow. But wait, what's illicit love in the streets? Oh, well, I'm just assuming that if you have to throw your Spence away on the streets that you're not, you know, you're not doing anything. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Gross. Yeah, real gross. Gross. Anything good going on? Nastasia? Nope. Anything bad going on? Yeah, nice, no? Nothing to report here. Okay, uh, call into questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Johnny Kirk wrote in. Hey, Dave, you called, I guess last week, Jack, and we just missed him. Sorry, just missed the opportunity to call into cooking issues today. My question is about curing bellies for bacon. What is your take on vacuum packaging pork bellies in a dry cure situation? Should I pull a full vacuum on a multivac style chamber machine? Do anaerobic conditions speed the osmosis and denaturation process? What are the pros and cons? And he gives you his cure mix here is uh, £2 of uh, kosher salt, uh, 16 ounces for that. So I guess £2 kosher salt, £one of brown
+
+[2:28] sugar, and 2 ounces of sodium nitrite is his cure mix.
+
+[2:33] Thanks for any advice. Okay. So look, uh, the article that I, you know,
+
+[2:40] there's, there's a couple of articles to look at, okay? One, there's an interesting series of articles on Spanish. I, you know, I, I, Iberico style and other Spanish cured hams, uh, written by, uh, Barat spanning, uh, last name Barat. I know if it's a man or woman, spanning from roughly 2002 to fairly
+
+[3:00] recently, like 2010, 2011, on a technique, where they directly thaw frozen ham.
+
+[3:08] So a lot of these guys buy frozen product. I guess not for the really expensive stuff, but, you know, there's obviously an economic advantage to buying a frozen product, for instance, you can do it any time of year, independent of
+
+[3:20] slaughter. You can get equal weights of hams together, especially if
+
+[3:24] you're like a lower quantity producer. You can store them until you have a batch of similar
+
+[3:29] properties to cure together, et cetera, et cetera. And so there's a lot of testing of thawing in a brine as opposed to thawing in a
+
+[3:37] fridge and then brining. And, you know, the results, as usual, you know, kind of mix, but they also test vacuum pulsing. But the one I think you should look at. The article, I think you should look at, is called development of a modified dry curing process for
+
+[3:51] beef by haze, and this is sometime in the early 2000s. I think it's like 2014, 2005, something like that. I don't have the year written down. But what Hayes tested, Hayes at all, tested was taking a beef lean beef mussels to do dry cures on. This is another European study. And I think it's UK. And they tested normal dry curing. So salt. They tested salt in a vacuum bag. They tested salt. They tested salt in a vacuum tumble operation and they tested, I shouldn't say vacuum bag. It's not vacuum bag. Vacuum tumble and tumble only. Now, the interesting thing is, is that all of the papers on this
+
+[4:35] subject, cite a bunch of literature saying that vacuum, the application of
+
+[4:41] vacuum or what they call pulse vacuum increases the rate of cure penetration or increases the speed. There's a couple things to look at. There's speed, there's also evenness, right? of cure throughout the thing. So these, and also they test things like tenderness, drip loss, all this stuff. anyway. So, uh, bunch of studies on this. However, these folks are focused primarily on pulse vacuum. What that means is what they're, they're, the, what they expect to be the, uh, reason that things happen is that when you apply a vacuum, the meat expands for a variety of reasons, the moisture inside, uh, starts to vaporize and pushes it apart, and also any air trapped on the inside of the meat, we'll start expanding and push apart, uh, any veins, uh, or
+
+[5:27] any, any vessels, I should say, or any air gaps. Now, anyone that's used a vacuum machine knows that if you vacuum meat that's warm, it blows up just like a marshmallow does. I've seen you know, fish rip themselves apart. I've seen steaks like inflate to, you know, 50% of their of their size, right? So then the theory being now, that when you apply a vacuum like that and the meat expands to whatever degree it does or the air inside expands to whatever degree it does, the
+
+[5:52] insides of the meat are somehow more available to the outside. When the air comes back in and the pressure is reapplied, that the whatever is outside, right, the exogenous stuff gets injected in.
+
+[6:04] Now, these guys, uh, who are in the beef one are testing a dry cure, so not a brine. And I don't know whether or not their results, they showed not that great a result
+
+[6:14] for, in terms of increase in amount of salt reaching the interior, and, you know, by, you know, by association, also nitrites, because they're also very diffusible things. Um, trites, not traits. And the, um, so they showed not that big of a difference or not not a lot of benefit to doing what they call vacuum pulse alone.
+
+[6:36] However, they're using a dry, a dry thing. And my feeling is, is that maybe, you know, maybe, in other words, maybe in a wet, wet cure application, it has more of a, more of an advantage. They showed that tumbling increases any sort of tumbling, tumbling, and vacuum tumbling, increase substantially the rates of
+
+[6:57] penetration and, you know, the evenness of the cure and whatnot. Now, my feeling is, is that what they're saying, their proposed mechanism for why the vacuum works, right?
+
+[7:06] And the reason, by the way, the things, as I said, things expand A because they're probably, if the meat's not fully chilled, there's going to be moisture vaporization because when you apply vacuum to something, it decreases the boiling temperature, you get a lot of
+
+[7:17] vaporization. You know, you can boil water at room temperature in a vacuum. Anyone that has a vacuum machine knows this. Anyone that doesn't is always shocked and you're like, well, do you mean boil water? Well, you know, you reduce the pressure. As you reduce the pressure, it's easier for water molecules to flash off to vaporize. And so they do, and so it boils at a lower temperature and that can cause the expansion of the meat. Anyways. If the actual thing that's going on is that the real benefit of the penetration is only at the moment that the vacuum presses
+
+[7:42] the stuff into it, then a vacuum pulse on a dry cured product is not going to have too much of an effect until a localized brine layer exists on the
+
+[7:52] surface of the meat. Now this is just speculation on my part. But my feeling is, is that, A, uh, like, intel that liquid kind of forms in the dry care scenario, you're not going to get that much of a benefit from
+
+[8:03] the uh, vacuum. But, you know, I myself actually have noticed like quite a benefit in wet and semi-wet things, right? But as the article points out, most of the benefits, they're not done by scientific studies, they're done empirically, and that's kind of a way of saying that cooks and, you know,
+
+[8:20] R&D folks at plants know how much vacuum to apply, and the fact that it increases, you know, the rate of curing from an empirical standpoint instead of from studies.
+
+[8:29] They just know because they know. So my feeling is maybe once it becomes a liquid, that, you know, that it's going to help a lot more. And another thing, it's interesting that I hadn't thought about in the past is this. Um, If it's the pulse that's important, most of the procedures that I saw that these folks were using were
+
+[8:47] single pulsed things. In other words, their only pulsing the vacuum one time. They're they're sucking a vacuum and just by the way, the protocols that they're sucking is a 90% vacuum. They're moving. And I don't know whether or not that's for, they think that's a better vacuum to suck versus what we normally suck in
+
+[9:03] a chamber vacuum, which is much higher. You know, 98, 99, 99. In other words, so, and, you know, by the way, just so you know, like, like an old timer, seller of vacuum tumblers, I spoke to years ago, like seven, 8 years ago, you know, I told them kind of the vacuums that we were applying in, you know, in
+
+[9:22] kitchens, and he's like, no, no, no, no. He's like, you need to apply much less vacuum. He said, again, probably not backed up with science from the empirical
+
+[9:31] thing that if you suck too strong a vacuum, that in his words, the
+
+[9:36] pullas close back up again. At the time, I was like, I don't really understand what the hell. I really don't understand what the how you're saying. But, um, and to this day, I still really understand what the hell they saying, but it made sense to him. And what he's really trying to say is, regardless of any studies, he finds that vacuum tumbling works best
+
+[9:55] at, um, not intense vacuum levels. like in on the order of 90% of the air being removed, right? So 10% residual. And that is, in fact, what the studies all run at, a single pulse where they maintain 90% vacuum, so 10% air
+
+[10:13] remaining. They maintain that for a period of time and then release back to atmosphere. But if it's the pulsing that does it, Why just do it once? When we're doing vacuum infusion of fruits, right? We put it in a bag and then we suck a vacuum on it. Bam, we infuse it. Then we suck it, we leave in the bag because you don't want to volatilize a lot of aroma off, please, people. Don't ruin your whatever. anyway. So then you apply another vacuum to the bag, right? And as you do that, the bag expands. Why? Because I told you that water vapor is going to be formed as the pressure reduces water vapor forms, the bag inflates again, then you can let the air back in. Bam, you can do it again and again and again. So why pulse just once? Stas, why just pulse this once? She's like, not only do I not know, I really don't care. I really just don't give a crap. Anyway, but the, um, so that's my feeling. So maybe maybe a multiple pulse situation, but go take a look at that article and I'm still going to do a little more research to see whether I can figure out whether or not there is a benefit or a lot of articles on the pulse vacuum for dry versus pulse
+
+[11:19] vacuum for wet. But you specifically care about dry. So it's interesting, you know, for that standpoint. But I didn't get a chance, unfortunately, to go back and read the references. If you go to that paper that I mentioned, which is development of modified dry
+
+[11:33] caring process, for beef by Hayes, you can see that they have a bunch of references for people that do think that vacuuming helps quite a bit. And so you can check those out. I didn't have a, I didn't have time. But I'll read you a little chunk of this article just so you have a flavor for the kind of crap I read for you people. The salt content table one, between the core and outer regions differed with a P of less than 0.001 for all
+
+[11:58] treatments, with the exception of the tumble only treatment, which had similar salt content in the outer
+
+[12:03] and core regions. This result indicated that for the tumble only treatment, there was a more even distribution of cure ingredients in the meat. Comparing core regions only, the salt content for vacuum tumble and tumble only treatments were found to be different to the control. Vacuum tumble and tumble only treatments had highest all content for the core region of 3.3 and 3.one% compared to 2.one% for the control. This result indicated the potential of vacuum tumbling and tumbling only treatments, and accelerating the curing process, i.e. rate of diffusion, of curing ingredients to the core of the muscle. So the, oh, here you go. Vacuum is known to increase core absorption. Here's a paper you can look up. Solomon at all from 1980, as well as extraction of salt soluble proteins, Sharma, Kumar, Nana, and Kumar, 2
+
+[12:41] Kumar in one paper, 2002. This is interesting, you know, in my in Dax's class, right? He's in 3rd grade now. Uh, I like Kumar and Kumar. That is my next band. Kumar and Kumar, 2002. So, uh, he has two, two, Sophia, uh, Lees in his class. And check this out. You ready for this? They go by. I'm not kidding here. Sophia Lee one and Sophia Lee two. Who the hell wants to be Sophia Lee number two? Like player 2 all the time. It's not like they switch up. It's not like they're like, this week, I'm Sophia Lee one, and this time I'm Sophia Lee too. And here's what you want to know, more messed up stuff? You ready for this? They're not the only 2 Sophia's in the class. There's a Sofia. There's another Sophia, in the class, so they can't even just go by Sophia
+
+[13:28] one, and Sophia 2, because there's a Sophia 3, if you just use the 1st
+
+[13:33] name. I forget what the 3rd Sophia's last name is. But that's a boatload of Sofia's and one... I mean, it's not like it's not like Dax is in a class of 300 kids and there's like, you know, 3 Sofias and 2 of them miraculously. By the way, unrelated happen to be Sophia Lee. Uh, you know, at least unrelated far back as Adam, uh, and Eve, Eve, more importantly, I guess. Well, who knows me? Well, whatever. You know, Mike, you get my point. Not closely related. So what the hell? Did you know Sophia was such a popular name right now? Or whatever it is, 9 years ago? They was such a popular... I don't think I've ever noticed Sophia. Have we? No? Maybe I have. don't know So anyway, where did that come from? Kumar, Kumar? God only knows what the hell's wrong with my brain. So, uh, anyway, so the vacuum tumbling, by the way, if you want to know the, uh, what's going on there, the theory is, is that the beating the crap out of the meat, uh,
+
+[14:23] Well, not only speeds the penetration of the cure to the core, but actually,
+
+[14:29] um, like ridgies around and creates more extractable protein, and that's part of what's going on there, so it also affects texture. So anyway, mildly interesting for people that find that sort of thing, interesting, I guess. At Clefts wrote in, which I guess hopefully everyone is listening because that's the kind of crap we talk about all the time. Yeah. stuff's like, I know. At Clefts Road in, at Cliffney issues. What is the useful range in microliters for micropipets when doing cocktail work? I know you've mentioned it before, but I can't find it. Okay, so there's, there's a bunch of different, so, Micropi Pet. As I've said a 1000000000 times here. Uh, you know, in cocktail work, it's one of the few times when weighing by volume is what we do, uh, as opposed to by weight, I mean, kitchens almost always run on weight,
+
+[15:12] weight, weight basis, you know, if you're normal, uh, they run on weight basis measurements, but
+
+[15:17] in, um, you know, typically only water is the thing that translates easily back and forth between weight and
+
+[15:22] volume. But in cocktail work, we almost exclusively work on a volume
+
+[15:27] basis for number of reasons. One, because the most important thing in a cocktail, is where the where the wash line hits, where the actual drink hits in the side of the glass. You know, I did a, I judged a contest once and the, the bartender who was doing the contest. And it was just somewhere else, not in the US. And the bartender had radically different wash lines. So the 2 drinks, the guy poured were totally different in the glass. like one was higher and one was lower. And I was like, holy crap, the wash lines aren't the same, and the guy sitting next to
+
+[15:56] me, who was also from, you know, not from here was like, so what? You believe that? I remember you telling me this a couple times. Yeah, because I still can't believe it. What would you feel like if you got the short glass and and, uh, and, you know, your, your, whoever you were out with drinking with got the tall glass? Yeah, especially if it was champagne, am I right? If you got the short glass of champagne, and that happened to me the other day. I got the short glass of champagne, I was like, what the what? Especially when you pay by the glass, you don't want the short. How much do you hate it when you're paying by the glass and you get the short glass? You're like, oh, God. And then you feel obliged to order another one just so you catch up because you know you're splitting the check. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, I don't know what the hell got me on that. So the wash lines are different. So that's why like a lot of things we do, we do by volume. Also, it gets complicated with weights because the densities of our stuff is, you know, very
+
+[16:44] different and really what we care about is volume. Also, it's, you know, inconvenient. If you need to measure small volumes to do it by weight because you typically lose a lot. So what a micropipe pet does is it allows you to very accurately, very
+
+[16:58] quickly and very repeatably measure out small volumes of liquids.
+
+[17:03] So where does this come up? One, it comes up in recipe development, especially when you're working with things that are small in quantity, so bidders, tinctures, salt solutions,
+
+[17:14] sometimes acids, depending on what you do. But whenever you're doing centrifugation, and you're using wine finding agents
+
+[17:22] to clarif- to be clarification aids, which is what, you know, we do. We typically use Pectonex ultra SPL, which is almost completely dose and sensitive. You can just splash it in by eye. It doesn't matter, as long as you don't add so much that it affects the flavor, the concentration or anything like this. It's really fairly dose insensitive. It's hard to OD on SPL unless you go crazy. SPL is the enzyme that I use to break down the cell walls of fruits and vegetables and olives and whatever.
+
+[17:47] Um, So, uh, so, so, sell everything. breaks down, pecked in, breaks down hemicellulose breaks down. I don't know. It has some cellulase activity as well, not a lot. Doesn't do liignin, you know, anyway, whatever. So the, um, so, you know, that one I don't necessarily need the micropipet for, although some people use it. What I use it for, uh, every day is, um, keselsaw and
+
+[18:09] kitasan, because wine finding agents that work on, um, electrostatic charge is their basis for function, right? They're causing the flocking, the agglomeration of opposite charged things, right? Those, if you overdose or underdose, man, it's useless. You just ruined everything. So you really want to get an accurate repeatable dose and you're dealing with quantities like 2 grams, 2
+
+[18:30] milliliters, rather, per liter of product. And so you need something that can measure in that range. Now, there are different kinds of micropipets and pipets with various degrees of difficulty of use. The ones I use are auto pipe headers that are adjustable. So you can, sometimes you get them in their just a single range. And so you boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. can only do one thing. The adjustable ones and the ones I use are by psyologic, psyologics, I believe, is the name, are pretty awesome. And you buy them in a range of things. So the one that I use, and they're specified in micro leaders, right? The one I use is 1000 microliters, which is one milliliter, all the way up to 5000 microliters, which is 5 milliliters.
+
+[19:14] Now, I found that I very rarely need less than that. Less than one mil per pop. it's extremely accurate there. However, it says explicitly in the instructions to never turn the adjustment knob. And I think I paid under $100 for the one I have, or around there. Never turn the adjustment knob past what they want because it's going to ruin the calibration and also it gets less accurate because the way it works is there's a piston that's very finely graduated and you push down until you feel the 1st
+
+[19:44] stop, that pushes the piston down a measurable amount and the amount that it's pushed down is dependent upon how you set it. There's a twist where it goes, click, click, click, click, click, and you set in exactly how much you want. And it's got one of those old
+
+[19:54] school like speedometer, click, click, click things, which is pretty awesome or like a tally counter. You push down until you feel the 1st you stick it into the liquid, you release on the knob. It sucks up what you want. You put it into the vessel, you're going to push into, you go push down to the
+
+[20:09] detent position, and then boom, past it, and it has an overtravel that pushes out the extra so you don't have anything left, and that's how it gets very high accuracy.
+
+[20:17] Anyways, they specifically say, do not turn the sucker below one milliliter or over 5 milliliters. Now, I've never turned it over. I've never turned it over five. I have. Well, I shouldn't say I did. A bartender once cranked this sucker down to half a milliliter, and I was like, yeah, you've ruined it. And they didn't. I tested it. I turned it back up to where it was supposed to be, up to like 2 mils, and it was accurate, but, bup, bup, bup, bup, and now it goes down to, bup, bup, bup. Now it goes down to half a milliliter. So it works. But that's the size I recommend. And if you need a different one, if you're doing very highly accurate work, you can also get one that
+
+[20:49] does like, I think, 200 microliters to a 1000 and that'll get almost everything you need. I very rarely used the 2nd digit. I really care about milliliters and decimal milliliters. And so, you know, the last the last digit. You know, I'm basically ignoring it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because mine reads the a single digit for the 1000s and then of microliters,
+
+[21:17] then, um, a 10s digit for 10ths, uh, of, well, for 100s rather. And then another digit for tents. It doesn't read the 3rd digit. At least I don't think it does. I can't in my head it doesn't. And I don't really care if it does anyway. Right? You want to take a break? Take a break, come right back with cooking issues. Third birds doing fake, tussle, fake.
+
+[21:38] This one's a song by my friend, Herbert Spillington.
+
+[22:29] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hands are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and
+
+[22:40] hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of
+
+[22:54] brochure pork. Optimum amounts of pure white, fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty.
+
+[23:02] For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. And oh, welcome back. To the cooking issues. So, uh, we had a note in from, uh, and this makes sense. Let me see here. At a squiddy.com and the name of it is acephalopod. But you know, Cephalopods, for those of you that, you know, aren't hip to your nomenclature. Cephalopods, which means foothead, are the kind of most advanced mollusks in the world. So we got your, you got your squid. You got your, you know, squids are awesome, right? You got your your octopus, octopus, my personal favorites, by the way. The giant Pacific octopus, baller. Love the giant Pacific octopus. I've said many times, I will say it again. the, the, well, okay, you got your, you got your chambered nautilus, you got your cuttlefish master of camouflage. They're all really good at camouflage. They're like endlessly fascinating, and for the most part delicious creatures. I've never had a nautilus. I don't really know what the hell it tastes like or anything. And they're kind of the most, you know, the nautilus in the most primitive kind because they still have their shell and they sit there like, you know, you like nautiluses? like kind of floating around in that weird shell that's upside them. But, um, yeah, the trick is, is that, uh, so
+
+[24:20] cephalopods extraordinarily smart, but in a way that, uh, is very hard for us to get a grip on because, uh, their sort of, um, brain power developed entirely differently from, you know, it's entirely different from looking at the way our brain works, for instance, versus the way uh, a dog's brain
+
+[24:42] works because we're, you know, infinitely closer related, right? You got to remember that, you know, uh, you know, we split off from uh, mollusks, uh, you know, back before the spinal cord was invented. You know what I'm saying? And so, uh, you know, we're talking about these guys evolved from the same kind of crew that are like clams and things like this,
+
+[25:02] right? So it's, uh, you know, i.e. like almost all of them are big, big,
+
+[25:08] dumb. You know what I mean? Like, I think very few of us have a problem thinking mechanistically about clams and muscles. Whereas you should have a problem thinking mechanistically about the kind of brain
+
+[25:21] functioning of or the neural functioning, whatever you want to call it, of the octopus.
+
+[25:28] Anyway, and as I said, a zillion times before, I will say again, this time I'll actually get to it before I go off on a tangent. The problem with them is they don't live very long at all. As a group, cephalopods are short-lived creatures. So even, you know, arctoothus, or have you pronounced it, the giant squid that they've recently captured on camera, you know, you're
+
+[25:51] talking, and you're talking something that is freaking big, a freaking big squid, is only living for, you know,
+
+[25:57] a couple years, like five, 6 years. You know what I mean? Like a giant Pacific octopus, I think it gets like 3 to 5 years, you know, out of its life. And then, because as soon as like the woman, or whatever, you know, the female, as soon as she lays her eggs and they hatch, she goes senile and dies, and then doesn't eat, by the way, the entire time that she's fanning her eggs
+
+[26:17] there. And then the male, as soon as it does, it's business with the with the ladies, just starts wandering around on the floor of the ocean until it gets eaten apart, goes, goes, uh,
+
+[26:28] it goes phenile. So it's, they're interesting. So in other words, like the only thing stopping them from either killing us and taking over the world or else, us, you know, using them
+
+[26:38] as, uh, as, you know, butlers in little aquariums that can like wheel around with joysticks is the fact that they
+
+[26:45] don't they don't live very long. So, uh, you know, clearly, uh, at Squiddy, a cephalopod has an interest in this, because of the Twitter name, but
+
+[26:52] he says, uh, or she, I don't know, because we don't know whether, uh, whether anyway. We do have a caller. I just want to let the caller know. Yeah, we should finish this. All right, we'll get there. there right there. Okay. So he writes, lobsters feel pain or something. There's a Washington Post article out that just came out about
+
+[27:09] it, and it details a lot of the research that's being done that I've mentioned a lot of times on pain and no seception. What the difference between pain and no seception is? In other words, how can you measure that an animal feels pain versus just response to noxious stimulus, noxious stimuli? And a lot of the work was done in hermit crabs and decapod crustaceans, which were completely unrelated to cephalopods, but the research is being extended into
+
+[27:30] cephalopods, and it's an interesting thing to look at. So go take a look at that, thanks to Esquidity for that. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, I've got a question. Hi to everybody. I'm just a new listener, but I've got a question. I found some old corny kegs that a farmer had that were like 20 years old.
+
+[27:47] And some of them had, one of them was like 3 quarters full of Mountain Dew. And
+
+[27:52] it still held pressure and everything. And I mean, I had to blow the pressure off. And so I tasted it, and it tasted like Mountain Dew, and I was, you know, wild hair, try to make just a little bit of wine out of this, out of this old
+
+[28:04] Mountain Dew, right? So, um, but, but my yeast guy. So I was wondering if you knew of any way to remove sodium benzowate from a
+
+[28:12] solution. Yeah, so that's your problem right there, is that there is, yeah, no, I don't know of any way to unpoison the Mountain
+
+[28:22] Dew. Uh, I mean, specifically, that's what they were worried about. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, that's specifically they they had a sugary product and they knew yeast was going to grow in
+
+[28:33] it. And so they put, you know, some preservative, probably that
+
+[28:37] time benzoid into it. So I don't know of any way to thwart that. I can try to look it up, but I don't know. I did look it up and I saw that HCL will, but then that'll just make it inedible again, right? I mean, hydrochloric acid? Well, uh, wow, that's how much did they say to add? Well, they didn't. didn't. That was kind of the problem. They said, you know, you can you can precipitate it out with with HCL. It should turn to what, assault, I guess, because it's already assault. So you would get, so I, I just don't know, I don't know that process. I just didn't know if maybe you, you would ever come across something like that. So you're putting in HCL, so presumably you're getting NACL, and
+
+[29:19] then, uh, and then whatever hydrogen benzoid is, right? I don't even know what that is. They saying it turns into a gas and floats off? Are they saying it? What are they? I have no, I have, I have no clue because it was just on a couple homebrew websites and they were like, you know, how do I get rid of sodium binsweights
+
+[29:36] and the guy just said HCL. And, you know, nothing else. So I just... Yeah, I don't even know what Benzowit is. You know what I mean? I don't know I don't know the structure of it. So, and on the website, they said that it precipitates out, huh? My guess is that it's that the bends of it is something fairly large compared to normal
+
+[29:57] things. You know what I'm saying? Right. But clearly it's soluble, you know. Right. Right. Yeah, I just, you know, it was just, just one of those question. I got the kegs last fall and I just, I worked with it a little bit with these little one gallon batches and it just never, nothing ever took off with it. So I knew what it was. It just was trying to see if I could get around that. Well, look, if it's HCL, right? If HCL, there's 2 things that could be going on, right? It's an asset attack or it's some sort of, like, you say, some sort of precipitation is going on. You're somehow causing, you know, something bends away to precipitate out, although I don't really, I don't really, I don't know the chemistry of it, right? If it's an asset attack, and you're just, and you're just, you know, destroying the sucker with acid, then you can just dope back NAOH, and, you know, it'll have a saltier version
+
+[30:46] of, and I've done that with, uh, I've done that with, um, stocks before. Now, I had problems because I made soap, you know what I mean? Uh, with the fats that were in the stocks, but, you know, you're not getting any problems with
+
+[30:59] uh, with excess uh, HCL on board, you know, if you have the ability to to do that. But if it's a precipitation thing, I don't know. someone has to know, or I can, you know, I have, um, have a bunch of old soda references from uh,
+
+[31:15] the, the 70s and um, 70s and 80s from the old AVI tech series, maybe they mentioned something about
+
+[31:22] it and I can, I can try to do something. It's an interesting problem. It's an interesting problem. to try to get rid of the the bends of it. Yeah, and you know, I'm not even, I don't even know that Mountain Dew wine would be that good. It was just a kind of a curious type thing, you know. How's it taste? The mountain dew tastes fine. It just, you know, it just never started, never started working. Had it changed at all? Not really. I mean, I couldn't tell that it changed at all. And the guy put it in there in like 1994 is when he got those kegs. I know, it blew my mind that they were still even holding pressure that the, that, that the O-rings hadn't gone. Yeah, well, they're pretty good. like, you know, like, uh, they're pretty good. I would bet that I would bet that you should change those O rings. Oh, sure. No, no, no. that's already been done. But yeah, I just kept some of the stuff back. You know, I just, I just, I just siphoned it out and kept some of it out. you know. Those corny cakes are great. You know what I mean? They're awesome. I bought 10 of them and I mean, they're they're just super. Do you how long ago did you buy them? Last fall, um, like October? Yeah, you know, like it's like been a couple of years now, but like, you know, five, eight, well, tell me how, 10 years ago when I was buying a lot of
+
+[32:29] them. They were free. You know what I mean? During the changeover from pre-mix. And I think a lot depends on what part of the country you're in because, uh, you know, the the
+
+[32:37] premix postmix happened at different times, depending on, you know, obviously if your local water is really bad, you tended to stay with uh,
+
+[32:45] premix a lot of the time. But, um, or not bad, but not, you know, not tasting good, you know? So, uh, they're much more expensive than they than they used to be. crazy. Well, I heard something, this is just a little aside that India still uses the corny kegs a whole lot, and that the demand over there was pulling, was put the price up. Oh, really? Well, 1st of all, you know, all the home brewers are buying them. A lot of the cocktail folks are doing kegging or buying them, and I guess, you know, they're being shipped over. But it got so bad that I think that they're making them again. So in other words, like the ones that a lot of the ones that people are buying now aren't actually surplus, you know? They're new. Yeah, they're new. Yeah, you can still buy the new ones. I mean, they're they're a whole lot higher, you know. I think I paid like 20 bucks apiece for these things and, you know, I bought everyone that I could. Oh, yeah. And it used to be, you know, I shop for a lot of my soda gear at Mark Power in Guntersville,
+
+[33:38] Alabama, and they used to have them like almost for nothing just for the price of, and they would recondition them. I don't even know how the heck that they were able to sell them, but they stopped selling them a number of years ago,
+
+[33:47] but yeah, they're awesome. I've never played around. A lot of chefs nowadays are buying, I think, the smaller ones. They're really expensive. The 3 gallon guys because they're doing smaller batches and stuff, but yeah. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask. Was the color changed at all on the Mountain Dew? Well, it changed a little bit, but not really. I mean, you know, not as much as you would think. And there's actually 2 kegs that I didn't clean yet, and they're about half full, but I don't know what they're full of. One says one has a tag for Pepsi. and it's pre-mixed, which I didn't understand. I didn't understand why they would have kegged a pre-mix, you know, and shipped it all over the place. You know, just 5 gallons worth of with worth of Pepsi. Well, I mean, they prob- I mean, why they shipped it to you that way instead of venting it? Well, no, no, well, why it didn't come as, as, as concentrate and then mixed into the water, but your, your comment earlier makes more sense that the water probably is not great and and they
+
+[34:38] wanted to control the water. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that, I mean, I've never, you know, I never actually worked commercially with pre-mix, but I think that a lot of the houses would show up with the kegs and swap them out.
+
+[34:49] I don't know how much mixing was done in-house, or you know what I'm saying? I think people would bring the 5 gallon charge stuff and then, uh, uh, and then put it down. I had one more question for you about the Mountain Dew, but it's since left my head. Anyway, well, I'll try and look up for that. If I can find anything, I'll I'll talk about getting rid of Benzwit and making Mountain Dew wine. That's a hilarious idea. I have to say. Just a wild, you know, just came to me, you know, but yeah, I appreciate you answering my question. I love the show. I'm just trying to work through the backlog. So great. Well, thanks for calling in. Talk to you soon. Thanks much. a good day. You too. was awesome. Yeah, right? Mountain Dew wine. As like, well, you know, I know what I meant to say. Like, what's interesting is sugar sodas are fairly stable, but you guys ever, Styles doesn't ever drink diet
+
+[35:36] soda, so she doesn't know, but if you have diet soda, the aspartame can break down into salts and it loses its
+
+[35:43] sweetness. So if you've ever had even canned soda that's stored at extremely high temperatures like, you know, in a laundry room, uh, for a long time, like it can taste weird and salty. So like if you made the wine, it would be very, it would be weird because it would be, all the sugar would be gone. an interesting idea. Speaking of soda. Tony Heron from Brazil Road. real quick, though, just to finish up the cephalopod stuff. on the cephalopodpage.org. You can buy an like a crazy amount of cephalopods as a hobbyist. I mean, like, you mean, like different, like octopus varieties and stuff. They're rather difficult to keep, I think. It's crazy. This list is insane. Some of them say like deadly, not recommended, but apparently you can still buy it. Well, one of the deadliest creatures on a weight basis is the Blu-rayed octopus. Uh, yeah, you know, and they're really pretty. I mean, like, they're freaking amazing. Like, you know, they like they change colors. I mean they're awesome. That's the one here. It says one of the most dangerous creatures on earth. Yeah, man. You know? Because like, uh, but very rare to get, uh, to get stuck by, you know, or, you know, hit with one of those. they, 1st of all, they flash, they flash at you when they're pissed. You know what I mean? So it's not like, it's not like you're shaking hands with a blue ring octopus and it, anyway, all of a sudden it zaps you. But, you know, I've read a bunch of books on cephalopod behavior because I said, like, I like
+
+[37:08] them, and all the researchers, all the octopus researchers, um, will say that they definitely have a, like, a sense when you're dealing with
+
+[37:18] them that they're dealing with an intelligence, right? That the cephalopod, when it looks at you, is actually looking at
+
+[37:25] you and not just, you know, some sort of like dumb gaze. And they can perform amazing tasks. uh, like, you know, solving uh, solving puzzles, doing things, get reaching out of the tank, leave, you know, to get things, uh, undoing jars, to get inside of them, things like this. But what's strange is the stuff that they can't do. This is what, like when you, when you research them, it's, uh, it's amazing, because they have such intensibilities in some, in some ways, like they're, they're,
+
+[37:52] like a lot, a lot of their neurons have to do with the coloring and texture of their skin. Their skin is much more highly tweaked than ours is much more. But they don't have certain things that we would think are completely normal, like the ability to know exactly where their tentacle is in space because I guess
+
+[38:11] they don't have a structure like we have internal structure. And so they don't have the same appropriate reception kind of things that we do. So things that we take for granted, they have very difficult abilities with, things that we would never think that they could do, they can do with
+
+[38:25] these. So it's, they're, yeah, they're fascinating. Love myself some Steph Lapod. All right. So Tony Herrion wrote in from Brazil. Hello, cooking issues and the HRN team. By the way, this fits in nicely with the Mountain Dew because it's a question about soda and pre-mix specifically. Hope everyone is doing well. I've got a question for Dave concerning 2 very beloved subjects of ours, soda and cocktails. I'm designing a cocktails on tap system and was wondering about the tap
+
+[38:48] valves. Dave has mentioned a couple of times about the Ibis Tower slash Becker, which is CM Becker, a corporation valve. He uses for his soda system. That is true. They get it from fox equipment here in the U.S. That is what I was aiming for to dispense the drinks, at least until I looked up the price tag for that tower, almost $400 for the 2
+
+[39:07] Faucet Tower, and $350 for the single on Fox, 2 X's, like Red Fox. Remember Red Fox? San Francis son? One of the great theme songs of all time. All right, all right. Fox, I'm being told that I can't talk about how awesome the Sanford and Sun theme song is, even though that is an amazing theme song. foxequipment 2x.com. Wow. They wow is about the price. In fact, my biggest surprise was how much you guys love your soda even more than I do. Or was it eBay Kung Fu? Your no duct tape New Year's resolution from a while back must be tremendously effective. Jokes aside, in my case, throwing 95% import tax and shipping to Brazil. You know that? like people in Brazil and they order stuff from here have to pay like double. Like the tax is like some intense, intense stuff. I don't know how they're allowed to get away with that because we don't tax the crap out of Brazilian stuff when it comes here, do we? I don't know. don't know about it. I could almost buy 2200 liters of outstanding bottled sparkling water around here. Instead, I was recommended the per lick 545 PC flow control faucet for much less to help control foaming.
+
+[40:08] And you link a homebrew thing here, right? I assume from pictures and schematics that the compensator mechanism is pretty different from the two. Do you believe that the perlick will fit well for cocktails dispense from a corny keg system? Could the ibis really do that much different for this application? And what alternatives could you recommend? My main concerns, as they should be, are excessive filming and loss of carbonation. I appreciate your insights. Keep up the good work. Tony, Harrion. Okay, here's the deal. The Ibis Tower, with the Becker premix on, it is expensive because they're taking a premix valve, a nice one, and they're retrofitting it onto a beer tower, and they're charging you an exorbitant rate, and it looks really nice.
+
+[40:46] So you're paying for a lot of chrome. You're paying for the fact that nobody uses these damn things anymore. By the way, the tower is nice because it's got a chilling line as well to chill the tower. Uh, because it's, you know, similar to like a cobra head, but it's called ibis because it's thinner than the cobra head. Anyways, it's expensive because of all the chrome and because nobody wants it, right? The problem with soda is. Uh, everybody knows that the, um, that the soda guns, the ones that they use in uh, post-mix suck. We all know they suck, right? The Wonder Bar and all their variants. We all know that they totally rob you of carbonation that in general, they're not clean enough and they make horrible tastings. Everybody knows this, right? But whenever anyone tries to go back to a single valve dispensing, because that's the way to do it. They always go to the beer style valves, like the one that you recommend. And the problem is this. Beer is put through a much lower pressure than any of the stuff we're dealing with because it has a lower alcohol content than cocktails
+
+[41:44] do, and it also has less carbonation than either soda does or that cocktails do.
+
+[41:49] So you're never going to get good results out of a beer system with, well, you're never going to get very highly carbonated results without foaming out of a beer system.
+
+[41:59] The only choice you have is to get a soda, a pre-mixed soda thing, because they are designed to compensate much larger pressure differences than you can
+
+[42:08] get, uh, than are, it can be compensated through a beer style valve. The good news for you is you don't have to buy the expensive stuff if you don't need the tower. You can go to C. M. Becker. That's Charles Mary Becker is the corporation. And by the way, the people who pick up the phone there don't know a freaking thing about
+
+[42:25] it, because they happen to make these things, they don't care about it, because it's not really good business anymore, but you can go on their website and look up pre-mixed valves. And the standard wall mount valves that can be mounted on a piece of stainless steel, right? With a, with, and they just have a hose attachment on the back and you take it down to like a quarter or a 3/8 hose and put it through your cold plate. those things will work just as well as the fancy one that I have. They just don't look nice coming out of a deck mounted sink deck mounted application. For my home application. I required that, A, it looked nice because my wife's an architect. B, I'm not using duct tape anymore, remember? And, uh, see, I need, I couldn't wall mount like I had before, I needed to deck mount it. And so to have all of that, I needed to go with that expensive system. If you can wall mount, you can get them much less expensive on the order of, I think they're like 30 bucks maybe for one of these
+
+[43:15] pre-mix valves and just mount it into the wall and you can get two, three, 4 of them and line them up and they were great. The other thing that you need to realize with cocktails, cocktails foam a lot more, a lot more than soda
+
+[43:28] does, a lot more. And it's because alcohol has a lower surface tension than water does. And also it has a higher viscosity. So you're dealing with a higher viscosity, the whole bubbles and a lower surface tension, which increases the rate of bubble formation in the
+
+[43:44] liquid, and what you have there for is a nightmare. Also, you have typically for a given level of carbonation, a feeling in your mouth, more
+
+[43:51] CO2, in alcoholic products, and cocktails are more alcoholic than beer, and then a lot of wines, and so therefore you have excess filming as well. Couple that with the fact that you can never get stuff that cold with a cold plate because you're only going down to ice temperatures, and I'm typically serving a good five, 6 degrees below that when I'm serving cocktails,
+
+[44:08] problem problems. But to get around it, you want a very long flow so that as something comes out of your keg system, it has a long time to calm down before it comes through the compensator
+
+[44:16] and out of the tap, right? And you're not getting as much pressure because you get a pressure, bigger pressure drop along a long line. But also you're going to want to run through 2 channels of your cold plate, not one, 2 channels of your cold
+
+[44:29] plate, so that it has a longer time that can get colder. And it's a lot colder, good 5 degrees colder typically. If you run through 2 versus through one. Running through more than 2 doesn't really give you an advantage. Another thing you might want to take a look at, if you're only running cocktail through
+
+[44:42] it, and not regular liquids, is using, uh, and it's got to ruin anything but stainless, uh, it'll ruin the aluminum that most cold plates is made out of eventually, but you could look at using a salt solution, eutectic solution, usually potassium chloride, something like this, depending on the alcohol content you're running
+
+[44:58] through, you might be able to get hyper cold stuff. If you calculate it wrong, you'll freeze your line solid. And, you know, it won't burst the, at least it has never, when I've made mistakes, burst my cold plate, but it does suck.
+
+[45:10] And then you have to fill out the cold plate to get it to work. So anyways, uh, uh, because we have we have to get off, right? Well, anyway, so hopefully that gave you some information. Next week. I was going to get to Kenji had written on the Twitter about shrimp and baking soda. Maybe we'll have time to talk about that next week. One more question. Oh yeah, what's that? Because me and Nastasia were talking about this before the show. We were admiring some of the thinly sliced potato chips on
+
+[45:34] somebody's plate that was eating at Roberta's and we're wondering what your preferences are on potato chips. I like thicker. Like, my, my thing, there you go. My favorite... She said Dave's not going to like those. I know. Look, I appreciate any well-made product. So like a thin potato chip that's nicely made. I enjoy, but just for comparison, my favorite potato chips that I've ever had,
+
+[45:56] ever are the, like, the actual original Maui ones that you, they've never shipped off the island that, like, when people go to Hawaii and they bring them back in bags. Now, granted, I 1st had these like 20 years ago, so I don't know whether or not I would still think they're the best things on
+
+[46:09] earth, but my memory of those thick, like, you know, Maui kettle, you know, kettle cooked, thick potato chips was that they were kind of God's gift to potato chip world, at least at that time of what things I've had.
+
+[46:21] I prefer a thick normal to a ridgy's, although I like the fact that
+
+[46:26] a poorly done ridgy is better than a poorly done thin chip. You agree with me on this one? I'll agree with you. Yeah. I think a thin chip is hard to do. So a really good thin chip is probably a thing of beauty. Oh, and by the way, next week, I hope to have time to discuss Travis Hawkins from last week's actual
+
+[46:43] question, which is pet peeves and faux pas in the kitchen. So tweet on in to at cooking issues or to the heritage radio network for next week's show, your favorite kitchen faux pas, and we will talk to them, for instance, using someone's knife without permission.
+
+[46:56] And we will talk about them on next week's cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey farms.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you late. Late in Bushwick, Brooklyn, but still live on the Heritage Radio network. Every Tuesday around noon, around noon, right? Somewhere around there. We got, uh, we got... What if primetime TV was like at noonish? At noonish? Well, there's a reason that we are never nominated for Beard Awards. Maybe it's because maybe it's that, yeah. Maybe it's my tardiness. I don't know. Nastasia's usually here on time. Jack, you're usually here on time. Just me. It's just me. Just me, you know? J-train sucks. Well, J Train sucks. And what, you know, look, not that there's an excuse, but I'm trying to get as much kind of work on thinking about the questions and whatnot
+
+[1:16] beforehand as I can get in, uh, you know, beforehand. So I'm pushing it always to the last second. So then if there's any problem with the train at all. dupe super late like I am today. But we're going to be joined on the phone, correct? Oh, yeah, we are. With, yeah, Chris Young of Chef Steps. He was going to be here in person, but due to a scheduling cordial you. Remember, listeners of this show will know that my son Booker, take took the word Cordelu, which is a station here on our fine subway system, and repurpose the word to mean cluster,
+
+[1:46] beep, beep. And it suits that purpose quite well, I think, Stas, right? Chris, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you doing this morning, Dave? Doing all right? And I'm kind of lucky. You know, another reason I'm late. I spent myself time armoring this morning. I'm glad you're not in the studio because I heard today is national smack
+
+[2:03] of cooking the groin with a spoon day. That's an official holiday or just one you made up? Well, I did just make it up, but I imagine that it could be like an official day. It's a back of the spoon, people. Not the front. Don't be animals about it. Oh, it's yeah, it's an old honored tradition of cooks walking around with a cooking spoon, not one that you're cooking with, and you smack another cook in the with the back of the spoon in the groin. Not hard, people. I find it actually incredibly unpleasant. And yet it happens all the time. You know? Chris, back me up on this. I'm I'm actually completely befuddled. What kitchens have you been hanging on? Oh, you, you liars. Liars. You can get fired for that. Well, I told you, I don't practice it. don't practice that. And, you know, it's not, no, it's not really, it's, I mean, why? Because it's a salt? Yeah, and sexual harassment. Uh, oh, it's usually, it's yeah, it's not, I don't know. Yeah. As I said, this is why I spent extra time armoring because I find it unpleasant. I don't like being capped in the groin. I really want to see a video of a day in the life of Dave Arnold. I think that would be very popular. Oh, I don't know. There is one online. can't remember who. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, if most of if most anyone saw what Stas and I did most days, they'd be like, oh, my life
+
+[3:31] isn't so bad. All right. Excuse me. Call your questions for Chris Young in two. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. But Chris, before we get too serious. Actually, you want to do some serious technical crap first? Because I had a bunch of people, um, you know, tweet in their kitchen peeves this morning, and I might have some more in, uh, during the break. I don't know. We'll go over those. Maybe we should have some questions first, some stuff that I think you might be especially good at. Um, we had a question in, uh, from... Here we go. Will Freeman. And if you if you haven't researched this, just tell me. at Rebelcat underscore one. Uh, I want to make a creamer for hot and cold beverages based on oil emulsified with egg and no dairy, how to prevent it breaking.
+
+[4:22] And I don't know what they mean by breaking like, keeping it liquid and stopping it from breaking there, or they mean feathering, you know, what the creamer's feather when they go out into, uh, into coffees and
+
+[4:33] whatnot. I will say before I turn you loose on this, Chris, I mean, you might not have anything to say about it. I don't know, is that it seems to me from like just very preliminary research that the secret actually lies into something that I know you, Chris, work on quite a bit, which is, which is salts, like citrates and phosphate, which, because typically these creamers are doped with
+
+[4:54] caseine. to add the, and so presumably because they have the casing in them, they need the emulsifying salts or whatever you want to call the melting salts, whatever, citrates,
+
+[5:05] polyphosphates, whatever, to keep them from feathering out when they go into suits. But if it's going to be literally no dairy. In other words, no casing, then we need to figure out some other kind of creamy looking bulking agent to put into it, to give it that, uh, you know, that that milkiness, along with maybe some additional stabilizers other than the less thin and the, and the, uh, and the
+
+[5:26] other uh, phosphilipid crabs that are in the, the egg yolk. Any thoughts? Yeah, so, you know, obviously caseine would be the go to emulsi. I mean, what you really need here is a good emulsifier system. Uh, you know, cream and milk is a bunch of of, of butter fat droplets coated in in caseine proteins, which do a pretty nice job
+
+[5:44] of, uh, of keeping that emulsion suspended. So I'm guessing when he's talking about breaking, We're really talking about preventing phase separation from occurring. Remember though, he's not, he doesn't want any dairy in it at all. So we need another substitute for... So if we so, you know, if you can't use casing. Um, uh, you know, my instinct would be to go to a combinate, you're going to need some emulsifiers and you're going to need a homogenizer to, to do this. And, and what I would be looking for are, I'd probably go to like
+
+[6:15] sucrosesters. Um, I think those will do a pretty, in my experience, those will do a pretty good job of coating most plant oils. And so the way I would do it is I'd disperse, um, some sucrosestors, uh, which I think the
+
+[6:29] elbuli makes a textural line, those are probably readily available. sucro. Yeah. And so that's probably a blend of different ones. Which is a dumbass name for sucralesters, by the way. I'm going to make no comment about El Bowie's naming scheme on a radio show, but... I love him. I love that. I'm just saying that's a dumb name. especially in English. It sounds like too many other things. Look, my big complaint with any of those products is they don't tell you what exactly is in them, but, you know, so... Not that they're bad products, people. We're not saying anything about the products or the people. I just don't like the name. So I would start off by taking your, your, your, your oil, whatever you're going to use, and I would emulsify, I would disperse some, something like a
+
+[7:12] sucrosestor in that. And then I would, under really high shear, or if you have a homogenizer, that would be great. I emulsify that into your liquid to form an emulsion. And I would, I don't think less thin or glyce or some of the other ones would work terribly well. But when I've done, I've done some constructed creams, if we go back to
+
+[7:33] the work we did at modernist cuisine. Uh, uh, stuff that didn't get published, there was a lot of good work with sucroesters for constructed cream. So I think that'd be a pretty productive direction to go. If you can use casing, I, your life will be much easier because getting sodium caseinate is much easier than sort of tracking down sucroesters.
+
+[7:52] Right. And so just to kind of, just to kind of parse out what's going on here for people that, you know, don't play this kind of game
+
+[7:58] regularly. If you go and just research patent literature on creamers, you'll see
+
+[8:04] that in fact, they do have mono and diglycerides in them as one of the main things that's added, how, along with less,
+
+[8:10] then, however, they have also casing in their formulation and mono and diglycerides, muey, muey, muey, cheaper than sucroester. And so, you know, sucrosestors are not by any stretch, the cheapest of ingredients to
+
+[8:28] use. And that's why, in general, in food industry, they're only used in situations where they're really necessary, not necessarily
+
+[8:34] in, in, in every situation where they might kick some serious, uh, but correct me if I'm wrong on that, Chris. Yeah, no, sucroesters are high end and fairly expensive, but they work really well. So, um, I can probably be a little more specific here. since I'm actually pulling up some of, I see, I was sensible. put my laptop in front of me. Um, and I would be saying, you're looking for something like a sucroester with a, what's called an HLB value of around 10 and you're probably looking at about 0.5% by weight. Um, But if you don't have that, something like uh, a blend of monoglycerides and less within, maybe like
+
+[9:12] 0.2 and 0.2% of both of those blended into your oil. That'll do a pretty good job of stabilizing the mixture. Right, but remember, everyone, we have a caller we're going to get to. When we get back, maybe a short word, because we got a lot to get to on what HLB is the balance.
+
+[9:27] And also on the fact that, you know, not all less things made the same. Right now, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Dave and Gang and Chris. I didn't know Chris would be on the show today and it's a really good surprise. I just had a few questions. I hope to bust out. My 1st question is about ultrasonic bass. I just recently picked up a Branson 5510 and it is a dirty, dirty used ultrasonic bass. And I know that Chris doesn't work with cavitation and french fries and stuff and I wanted to kind of get up to that and I was wondering what I would need to maybe clean it,
+
+[9:59] maybe neutralize some of the nasties. I love that meal. Sonic Bath is dirty. That's the most hilarious thing ever. Yeah, yeah, Dusty. I picked it up from a shop from a specialist who makes dry diaphragm pumps and he just is a really small niche in California here just doing that. So, uh, yes, it's super used and dirty. So I was wondering if, um, what else? Before I turn you guys loose, let our listeners know, ultrasonic bath, use for cleaning
+
+[10:25] things and for other operations that you guys are going to talk about in a minute. The smaller ones that you can buy inexpensively are jewelry cleaners, typically they're sold at, you know, to home folks. Branson is a manufacturer of ones that are in industry and life
+
+[10:40] sciences, and they also build much larger, more powerful ultrasounds for welding. Tell them how many liters this one holds, so we have an idea what size. This one's like 2.5 gallons, so it's actually kind of big, bigger than the ones that
+
+[10:52] I've seen before, but still kind of small, I guess. All right, go. Okay, so, you know, so this came from somebody just
+
+[10:58] doing like, uh, um, probably metal cleaning or some sort of parts, you're not going to have to worry about like getting the Geiger counter out and making sure this, this wasn't used for some sort of nefarious radioactive purpose. Oh, okay. Yeah, that, that, that's good news. Um, usually what I would do for cleaning this is probably start out, uh, if you can get
+
+[11:19] some some lye, uh, essentially a drain cleaner, I would disperse some of that in water and start off with an alkaline wash, which will help, uh, which will
+
+[11:27] help uh, get some of the, what I'm guessing are sort of metal filings and fines off it.
+
+[11:33] And then I would drain that out, switch over to uh, an acid, something like muriatic acid, which you can get at Home Depot would be a good
+
+[11:40] choice. And then after that, just wash really well with a detergent. And by the way, lie, if there is some sort of biological contaminant in there,
+
+[11:50] lie will eat it. Yep. Awesome. And so you can, you can, you can get both of those at at Home Depot and so you just want to start off with a, with a good alkaline wash,
+
+[11:59] then, then drain it out, neutralize it with some, uh, or just, just wash it with some water, then go to an acid wash and after
+
+[12:05] that, just detergent. Be careful when you make lie solutions. Yeah. Yeah, if you want to do this one, Dave? No, no, you go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead. Really important order of addition, really, really important. Do not dump your water onto a giant pile of lie. Yeah, it gets very hot. Also, lie, like, label the hell out of it. I've gotten really badly damaged by unlabeled lie. And, um, you know, I like having Lyra. If you can, get some food grade and, you know, do some of the amazing work that you can do with
+
+[12:39] lie in the kitchen as well. One thing I'll add, just in case, because I like to kill everything. I finish everything off with a good bleach rinse. Let it sit and then blast out. You're going to have a little more. Is this one of the ones with the metal outside or the molded plastic outside? It's like the molded. It looks like polypropylene, uh, cooler kind of material or something. Yeah, that can be a good bleach wash on that. Yeah, okay. Also, like, if there's weird and crusty stuff. At least mine can be completely disassembled, including removing the seal that seals between the plastic and the stainless
+
+[13:12] steel, uh, thing that's uh, holding it together. You just want to be careful to not dump a bunch of, at least the one I have has the
+
+[13:19] transducers bonded to the inside of a stainless steel tank on the inside that sends sealed to the underside of the plastic
+
+[13:26] lip, and all of that can be gotten into. If there's anything really nasty, but I'd avoid doing
+
+[13:32] that, unless you really like doing that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for that question. Hopefully I can blow through just another one real quickly. Another thing I'll be cleaning in my ultrasonic bath will be glassware. And for the
+
+[13:46] roto app, I was recently able to piece together in the last couple months. It's great for that by the way. Yeah, and I was going to ask, so what detergent? Um, do you, do you buy those detergents that they use, uh, with the uh, ultrasonic bathroom? Do you, do you just do like hot water and cavitate it for like, you know, 20, 30 minutes?
+
+[14:03] If you can get some phosphate solutions into the water with a little a little bit of detergent, uh, you will get very clean glassware, you know, uh, one of the, one of the unfortunate things or fortunate depending on how environmentally conscious you are, is we removed phosphates from from dishwasher detergent, uh, a couple of years back,
+
+[14:22] and, uh, unfortunately, phosphates are really good at, uh, sort of removing hard water stains and letting the glassware drain and
+
+[14:30] dry, very, very clear. So literally some tripolyphosphate, maybe like half a percent dissolved in water, is going to do wonders for cleaning your glassware. Alkenox still has it, doesn't it? Probably, yeah, there's almost certainly commercial, commercial ones are going to have it. Actually, espresso cleaner, essentially, will have a good mixture of citric acid and phosphates. So those would be good choices. But if you just go get like a consumer dishwashing detergent, it's gone. awesome. Thank you. Also, I recently read head to tail, um, the article of head to tail distillation by Dave, and um, I was really intrigued of how he was able to set up his manifold system, um, and how he had a coil condenser. My question is real quick, is it, is it necessary for me um, to get a coil condenser for that setup with
+
+[15:14] a peristoltic pump? What do you have now? Do you have a coal thinker? I mean do you have a cold finger condenser? I went with the cold finger because it was a little cheaper and a little easier with dry ice. Um, and I've noticed that the distill it does kind of freeze a little bit, um, initially. And I think that's what the problem was, right? Is that it wouldn't drip drip down at like at a good rate. I started off life with a coil condenser and then moved to a cold finger condenser, not for reasons of economy, but for reasons that I couldn't distill alcohol in a commercial
+
+[15:47] environment without endangering, you know, my partner's liquor license, which is kind of not right. And I wanted a way to do it legally. And to effectively distill some of the flavors that we want in water and not have them get totally, you know, just ripped out with the
+
+[16:04] vacuum, even before you can taste it the 1st time, you need to have an extremely high temperature delta between the distillation temperature and the condensing temperature.
+
+[16:12] And so I moved to the cold fingers so that I could do that. Dry ice is really dry ice is so powerful that one of the problems that you're going to note when you're using dry ice in a cold finger condenser
+
+[16:23] is... Yeah, and you're going to, like, the actual vacuum, the vacuum takeoff area tends to get clogged with ice crystals more than when you use, let's say, liquid
+
+[16:36] nitrogen. So I found that actually distillation using dry ice as the cooling source is vastly cheaper and more efficient than using liquid nitrogen because liquid nitrogen is relatively has relatively low amount of chilling power compared to dry ice on a pound per pound basis.
+
+[16:52] But, um, I find that it's vastly
+
+[16:56] easier uh, to use because once your uh, vacuum, um, once you're vacuum column freezes, once you no longer can suck a vacuum because of ice crystal occlusion in the lines, you're done.
+
+[17:07] And so I found that happened a lot. So you need to be really careful when you're starting a distillation with dry ice that before you add dry ice to your condenser, that you suck a partial vacuum on the cold finger. And you do that so that you don't have a lot of moisture from the atmosphere condensing up near the
+
+[17:28] top of the condenser, which is where the vacuum takeoff port is, which gets clogged very easily. So you want to suck a partial vacuum, not enough to do any major distillation, right? Then you want to add your dry ice and your alcohol, let it cool down. Then you want to start your your actual hardcore primary distillation, and you need to be sure that you don't boil over because if you boil over and you have to break your system to clean it before you continue your distillation, then all hell breaks loose, especially with
+
+[17:55] the with the dry ice, takes forever to warm the condenser back up and it's a huge pain in the butt. You can get around that by using a bump flask. Now, none of this is, none of this has answered your actual, or fritted. I actually think fritted is better than a bump flask, but very few people use the fritted inserts between
+
+[18:10] the, in the, in the what's called, in the vapor duct. Can you can you use a bump trap on your, uh, the beaker flask that you have? Because I actually picked up that same beaker flask, but the whole thing seems super long rotating and it's wobbling a little bit. Yeah, the bigger flask has issues. You have to be extremely careful with the bleaker beaker flask. They're prone to failure. So what we're talking about here, folks, is there's a beaker flask allows you to open and close a beaker so that you can literally put your fist inside of where the product
+
+[18:38] is, and it's fantastic if you're going to dry something out and makes it a lot easier to clean. The issues with the beaker flask are that they are relatively slow to ramp up and down temperature wise because the glass is
+
+[18:49] thicker, and the seal where the beaker itself is tends to get wonky with time. So you want to make sure you want to run a really good vacuum test dry before you do anything to make sure that you can get the sucker down to the vacuum levels you need.
+
+[19:02] But just to answer your, and yes, you can use a bump flask with that, it'll all hold itself together, but it becomes more precarious if some knucklehead
+
+[19:11] walks and hits it with their hand. You know what I mean? which it happens, believe me. But what you, um, your, to your 1st question, you can do some fractionation, um, when you have a system like that, but a large amount of stuff is frozen onto the side of your
+
+[19:28] condenser, and so you can't really do accurate fractionation
+
+[19:32] with, uh, that kind of a setup. What you can do. It's a huge pain in the ass, but you can use a eutectic salt
+
+[19:40] mixture and you can you can hit a temperature somewhere closer to like -20
+
+[19:47] C, something there. And there you can do some really hardcore good fractionation, but it's just a lot more difficult to maintain temperatures,
+
+[19:55] especially because the actual volume of that condenser is quite low. So you'd be better off, maintaining something. You can buy a, and you have to run a condenser colder for a given level of separation because its surface area is not as great as a coil, all right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can buy slash jerry rig, something that allows you to just pump cold stuff into your cold finger and siphon it out.
+
+[20:19] So you can sit there and just with a thermometer or a circulator, keep an alcohol bath or a glycol bath at like -20 and then use a pump siphon system to constantly refresh the cold finger.
+
+[20:32] And you can do that for like 30 bucks, especially if you already have
+
+[20:36] a circulator. Wow, that's good news. That is great, that's great. Uh, then my, sorry, my next question is the, the, the, condensation, is that on the outside of the condenser?
+
+[20:46] Because, remember, it's important for it to be 2 thirds up the way the condenser, and I can't really see it on the cold finger. Are you looking for the condensation on the outside of the condenser, I think? Yeah, well, you look for both. It depends on what you're doing in a, in a, in a cold finger, uh, most of the time when you're doing distillation. It's much easier to see a water vapor line than an alcohol vapor line, but you're looking for a condensation on the glass itself on the outside. And in a coil condenser, you're looking for the drip lines where the drips are starting on the coil coming down. And you can kind of see where the melt zones are in
+
+[21:20] a cold finger condenser to find out if you're melting very high up, it means you're losing temperature and
+
+[21:27] your condensation line is too high. You'll just get a feel for it over time. Another really good way. This is why dry ice is problematic because it tends to freeze everything up and make things difficult to see. But, uh, if you just put the, like the 2 the back of your fingers against or the back of your hand against the, um, uh, against the outside glass and feel up and down, you can get a feel for where the line is by temp.
+
+[21:51] Yeah. It's a condenser itself gets too hot. I've noticed, it seems like it's redistilling near the vapor duct, and a little puddle is forming. I don't think I'm bumping. I might be bumping a little bit, but I think it, is that possible for if like the outside of the condenser feels too warm, then you'll
+
+[22:06] get, um, um, that problem. Well, you should melt off the tip. The tip of the cold finger on the inside should be liquid at all times when you're
+
+[22:15] distilling. Oh okay. Um, and to do that, would you have to use like 200 truth alcohol by chance? No, water. The fact of the matter is, is that you're, you're, it takes so much energy, so much energy to recondense
+
+[22:28] steam that almost no, there's no coolant that is powerful enough at full distillation rates to keep solid ice at the tip of a
+
+[22:37] coal finger that I've used. Oh, I see. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, thanks so much. Sorry for hogging up the time. I really love chef steps and you're doing some great work, Chris. Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you guys so much. Fantastic. Thank you. All right, so back really quickly before we take a break, which we should do. Uh, let's just give them a quick thing on uh, hydrophobic, uh, lipophobic, uh, or, balance, and uh, the difference in less,
+
+[23:04] less, less the thins go. The simple ideas, hydrophobic lipophilic bands, is just a measurement of how much more a particular mulsifier prefers to be in what we'll call the oil phase versus the water phase or the aqueous phase.
+
+[23:17] And depending on what you're trying to emulsify you, often
+
+[23:21] wanted a mole fire to be more in oil or more in water. And there are 2 forms of lesser than, you know, usually de-oiled and oiled lesser than, and they have very, very different hydrophobic lipophilic balances. Um, trying to remember the numbers off my head. You might, you seem to, you seem to retain numbers much better than I do. No, because I tend not to, I mean, like, I tend not to use them so much, so I never really grained them into my head, but any supplier of repute will tell you the number. Yeah, and and what within it, if you start really calling around, you'll find out that they can be custom tailored a lot.
+
+[23:56] In fact, I believe there's a whole thread on HLB values
+
+[24:00] and less than on the chef steps forum. Um, which is a much better and more reliable source of information than my brain off the top of my head. The main thing to know is that not all less of things are created equal, and assuming that you can substitute them from one recipe to another, isn't necessarily going to work if you don't really have a good idea of what the HLB value was of the particular lesson than being used.
+
+[24:23] And that goes for any of these kind of ingredients that are, I don't know,
+
+[24:28] there's not really a good word for these ingredients. I'm going to call them highly tweaked ingredients. Sure, technical ingredients. Yeah, technical. good one. technical ingredients. Any one of these technical ingredients tends to be highly tweaked
+
+[24:39] out, and one, just because they share the same name as another doesn't mean they perform in the same way as another.
+
+[24:46] And the analogy I always used to use is that, yeah, pretty much like flowers will all kind of work the same when you're thickening a
+
+[24:53] sauce because you're using really blunt, blunt instrument type of functionality when you're doing
+
+[24:58] that. But most of the work that we're doing with these technical ingredients, much more like scalpel work. And for that, you really need to know exactly what is going on. Sure. And I suppose I should actually be a little more useful as I think about this. So I sort of skipped over this, but, you know, the HLB range runs from 0 to 18. And if you're doing a water dispersed into oil emulsion, you're generally going to be looking for an emuls- emulsifier with an HLB value of something like 4 to maybe 5 or
+
+[25:24] 6. And if you're trying to do an oil and water emulsion, you really want something that's more like 8 to 18. And so less of ends, uh, your, your, your oiled less of ends tend to have an HLB value. I think it's like 9 is a pretty common one. And that makes it a pretty good for oil and water emulsion, but not very good for a water and oil
+
+[25:43] emulsion. If you were to use a de oil lesser, then you'd probably find one with an HLB of five. Yeah, I mean, that's what's interesting about less of things and why they really don't work one to the other to substitute back and forth because they straddle the line and they could be on either side of that line, which
+
+[25:59] is. And, you know, it's like, it's like for those of you that care about this stuff, it's like low acyl and high acyl geland. They both gel-and, but they couldn't have radical, they couldn't have more different textures. I mean, you could not have 2 more different textures than high acyl and loisel gelin. Anyway, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll be right back with Chris Young from Shut ups.
+
+[26:45] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany
+
+[27:00] color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of
+
+[27:12] brochure port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit www.surifarms.com. Oh, yeah. Back with cooking issues, and Chris Young. Chris, we got another caller with a question. Call her. You're on the air. Guys, this is Judah from Maryland. How are you? Doing all right. Hi, Judah. So I actually have a very quick and probably simple question about pressure cooker
+
+[27:40] mechanics. Uh, and and I didn't realize Chris was going to be on the show today, but it's about one of the recipes from uh, Myers cuisine at home. The, uh, so I will say that uh, my, I was not involved in the recipe development for modern cuisine at home, I'd left to start chef steps by then, but go on. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I'm sure you could probably help anyways. Um, so, a big crowd favorite is the uh, the buffalo wings, the uh, chicken wings with the buffalo oil. or the buffalo sauce. I'm sorry. And, um, in that recipe. So there's 2 variations. Either you could do it in a pressure cooker, you know, in tanning jars, or they say you could just simmer
+
+[28:17] it all the ingredients on a stove. in oil for about half an hour. So the differential is, they, they say, uh, full pressure, uh, at 10 minutes for 10 minutes, uh, in the, in the
+
+[28:29] jars, or on the still top, you know, for a half hour. So, it just got me wondering, like, you're cooking the oil on the spill. I'm sure that the temperature is probably close to around 250 at low, you
+
+[28:42] know, low heat on the stove. So what's going on inside the fresh cooker that's actually shortening would be shortening. Oh, Chris, I know you're itching to answer this one. I can feel you over the phone. Oh, I'm going to try not to crawl out of my skin. Um, so, so there's, there's a few things. The 1st thing to realize is it really doesn't matter very much what your oil temperature is on the stove. Presuming you're at reasonable atmospheric pressure around sea level. your food's filled with a bunch of water, those chicken wings. And so it can't be hotter than 212 degrees Fahrenheit, 100 degrees
+
+[29:14] Celsius, at normal atmospheric pressure because until all the water is gone, you're stuck at the boiling point. The hotter the oil, the faster the water will be evaporated from the food, but that's all that changes. The core temperature doesn't get any hotter. Pressure cookers allow you to raise the boiling point of the water, which means you can actually get the core temperature, the food
+
+[29:33] higher, because as you raise the pressure, boiling point goes up just like as you decrease pressure, boiling point goes down. And so the basic rule of thumb I tend to carry around is you're trying to convert collagen into tender gelatin. And... Let me just correct you real quick. So this is for the, for the um, the spiced oil that goes into the the buffalo sauce, not for the actual wings. Oh, not for the actual, not for the actual thing. Okay, so if there's any liquid in the products at all, the only way to alter the temperature on the inside of that product to accelerate any processes is by applying pressure.
+
+[30:07] Right. So it's a lot of onion and a lot of garlic. So I'm sure there's a reasonable amount of water in those. Wait, do they change the amount of onion and garlic based on which technique you use? No, no, no. They just changed the time. Whoa. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I've tried it both ways. I mean, it's it's a similar product both times, but would you suggest like bumping up the onion when you're doing the pressure cooker? That, I mean, like, the problem with bulking onion is you bulk. The problem with bulking onion in a pressure cooked recipe, which I do on a regular basis, is that you're adding a lot of extra water to it because you're not getting rid of the water in a pressure cooking situation, but pressure cooking,
+
+[30:49] radically lessens the characteristic flavors of onion and leaves more of a kind of standard
+
+[30:57] sweet root vegetable flavor to them. Is that your experience as well, Chris? Yeah, that tends to be that's a pretty good description of it. Yeah, which I like for some things. Like I make a pizza sauce that's half garlic, half oil, and I do it by pressure cooking. Um, you know, um, And I, you know, but I found that, for instance, I, you know, I, I, I like combinations of pressure cooked onions, for
+
+[31:21] bulk and regular cooked onions, when I actually want onion flavors, like, for instance, onion soup. Um, Well, there's there's going to be another difference you have going on here. So, uh, I don't think there's a terribly simple explanation. I think, uh, so now that I understand the question. You're sort of, it'd be nice that there was a simple answer. I think one of the factors that's going on is inside a pressure cooker, you're in a semi-sealed environment. That means some of your volatiles are not being vented as rapidly as they would be on a
+
+[31:53] stovetop, and you're going to tend to retain more of those in the oil than you would in a stovetop. So that would be certainly one of the reasons I think you get to a similar product faster. Dave, you have any, you're the distillation expert. I felt I was like I was listening to Walter White a few minutes ago. Yeah, well, I should end so well as Walter White, just kidding. I just saw the last one, whatever. I want to ruin that for anyone. But, um, the, uh, yeah, and I mean, look, for years, I've also worried about pressure cookers that vent,
+
+[32:25] presumably there's no real reason other than, uh, volatiles could be why, uh, the venting's an issue, which is why I thought, you know, your original idea, Chris, of putting things in jars was kind of a genius
+
+[32:35] idea. aside from the preservation standpoint. Yeah, so and and so, you know, there's no question you're retaining more volatiles when you open the pressure cooker, I imagine you
+
+[32:45] got to really a really potent sulfurous aroma. Well, no, that stuff is really destroyed in pressure cooking. And I emailed Block, the guy who wrote the Garlic and
+
+[32:55] Allium's book, and he, you know, about this and about like what's kind of going on, and there is some research on it, but he referred me to someone who could actually do the, the, the,
+
+[33:05] chemical analysis of it, but they wanted to do it for money, and I didn't really have the money. They were going to do it on a per sample basis because in normal cooking, right? You inactivate the, uh, the enzymatic pathway to convert, um, you know, the non-pungent precursors to the pungent, uh, you
+
+[33:23] know, Yeah, sure. Uh, and I forget which it is, Allison, Allen, whatever it is. You know what I mean? Uh, uh, and they're all they're different for the different alliums. But if you do a normal cook on something, and then blend in uncooked allium. Those enzymes will still act on the precursors that are still there and create pungency. Whereas in pressure cooked products. That's not the case. In pressure cooked product, addition of fresh enzyme doesn't convert all
+
+[33:51] of this stuff to the pungent. So there's something, and sulfur chemistry is incredibly complicated anyway. And so there's something going on there that I think is only, uh, empirically understood, let's say, that means like cooks know it, but there, but I don't know that anyone knows exactly what's getting busted into
+
+[34:08] what in a pressure cooker with, um, with onions and garlic and leeks. I just know that it's it's complicated and that the that the rate and nature of the change is not necessarily linear with time. So I know if I want to completely obliterate those things, I push them for 20 minutes. So maybe 10 minutes is the upper limit where you can retain some of the original character of
+
+[34:27] the, of the, of the alliums. you know, you know? No, it's it's actually an interesting question. The way that recipe would have been developed, literally, was just very empirical, try
+
+[34:38] things and see what sort of gives a close approximation. Okay, sorry, we don't have a better answer. All right. Well, it's mainly just about the cooking times, but yeah, it was interesting to hear about onions as well. All right, thanks, guys. Thanks a lot. All right, Chris, I got another one for you. J.E. Con writes in on the Twitter. I want to give my hot sauce, a real fermented sauce, by the way, not just a pepper puree, some heft. Should I use modified starch or Xanthan and why? Or something else. I added. Or something else, Dave added. It depends on how much have to. If it's just a little bit more body, it's hard to beat Xanthon for convenience. Um, I'm generally not a big fan of a lot of modified starches. They tend to really sort of dull and round out the flair flavor. My personal preference would be go to a gel-and-based fluid gel because you can really change the body to and dial it into whatever you want without making it sort of gloopy or slimy or
+
+[35:36] or cloying, which tends to be a problem with xanthen or and starch. You agree with that, Dave? You've done a lot of this. Yeah, yeah. The only issue you got to remember with Jell-An, you'll probably have to make
+
+[35:47] the, like, a stiff Jell-An fluid gel, like water. I've had difficulty getting geland to set in extremely high, uh, like ionic situations like kimchi, for instance. I tried a bunch of different kimchis and I couldn't get it to set right. Have you been able to do it with Agar, which usually is a little more tolerant. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. I was I was developing it for a gelan recipe, which is why I kept on trying it with gelan. So I never tried it with Agar. Probably Agar would be a lot more tolerant. I don't know about the long-term stability of an Agar fluid gel versus Jeland, though. I would guess that Jeland would be more stable in the long run. Jell would be better, and I suspect you could, I mean, you're right, especially when you have lots of salts around
+
+[36:32] things you get complicated, but usually not something that you can't solve with a little bit of sodium
+
+[36:36] hexametaphosphate. Yeah, yeah. All right, that would be my voice, my choice, but if you just need a little bit more body,
+
+[36:43] Xanthon. easy. All right. I'm gonna, here's what we're going to have to do because we're going to run out of time. I'm going to rip through this next question. And then we're going, should we do the pet peeves first? Pet peas first? I like pet peeves. All right, pet peace. I asked last week, someone asked us last week about pet peas, right? And oh, before that, I want to give a shout out. Aaron Morgan wrote in about last week. what's going on to get We had a caller in last week who had a bunch of Mountain Dew that was like 20 years old, wanted to make it in a Mountain Dew wine, needed to get rid of the
+
+[37:10] Benzowait, and was told to add HCL to it to get rid of it, but I didn't know what the reaction was. And Aaron Morgan wrote in on the Twitter. HCL plus sodium benzoate equals NACL plus benzoic acid, which is a solid room temperature. can be filtered out on filter paper. Thanks, Aaron, for that. And then we had a question, what are some good kitchen peeves? And so these are the ones we wrote that were written in this morning and before, and we'll just go over and Chris, see what we think here. Joshua Galliano. The cooking kid writes in towels on shoulders of cooks, not courtesy wiping bottles after use, especially of honey or molasses. What do you think? Uh, misuse of kitchen side towels just completely drives me nuts. They're filthy. They should be banned from the kitchen. Yeah, well, well, so David Shopic wrote in, why all the hate for the towels? And then Joshua wrote back, if the towel's dirty, a guest can see it instantly. If they're plating food, filth from the towel, from the towel can get in the food. accurate Uh, Brandon, uh, um, Balsley wrote in. I think my biggest one is when cooks try to show other cooks who has a bigger peep in very passive aggressive ways. What do you think about that? Those don't tend to be the kinds of kitchens I do well in. Yeah, yeah. And he also added, I'll hire someone with clean fingernails and no resume before someone with dirty ones that has done a season at
+
+[38:24] El Bully, the bully. Yeah, what do you think? Agree? Always. Also added. does not appreciate people drinking out of delis. I think he means what I call quartz. calling people you work with closely chef and wearing aprons to the washroom. Never wear freaking aprons to the washroom, but I have to say that I, even at
+
+[38:43] home, sometimes I drink out of quartz, but I don't know, what are your thoughts on the hating of drinking out of quartz? I'll use whatever vessel suits the purpose. So deli cups are fine by me. I mean, what I always heard was the reason to drink out of core containers is that you could tell the DOH when they showed up that
+
+[39:00] that was a cooking ingredient and that they weren't drinking anything. Oh that's interesting. No, I've never heard that one before. I mean, that's what I was always told is that, you know, if you have a cup on the counter, you're obviously drinking in the
+
+[39:11] kitchen. If you have something that's there that's in something that is a cooking storage vessel, then perhaps you are not drinking it.
+
+[39:19] Uh, that I'll buy that. that's plausible Deborah Reed wrote in. Seeing cook in whites on public transit, public transit. Oh my goodness, don't ever do that. I hate seeing people outside of the kitchen wearing their cooking stuff. It's the same as seeing somebody on the streets in scrubs from a hospital. Like, what are you doing? The whole point. I was just going to say this. I drive past the University of Washington hospital every day on my way to chef's
+
+[39:45] steps and chef's steps, chef whites are bad enough, but to see people like going to work in their scrubs outside is just like
+
+[39:52] mind boggling. Now, yeah, these are professional uniforms of cleanliness. To have them outside where it's known filthy. I don't even care whether it's real filth or not. This is a game of perception, people. Perception, which is why you also shouldn't be smoking outside in
+
+[40:09] your in your uniform or any of that stuff. In my, in my opinion, my opinion. Uh, John Rivett writes in, not covering a pot of sauce. It is clearly spattering all over the stove and then leaving the mess. That sucks. Right? No, no, you're going to become a hated person if you do that. No, yeah, to completely hate it. Well, so some of these are like pro kitchen and summer home kitchen. I think that applies to anything, right? Yeah, I just think clean up as you go and don't leave a mess for somebody else. That's just that's just good etiquette. You know, you weren't raised by a pack of wolves, people. Well, maybe we don't know. Brian Garrick writes in one following recipes blindly without any thought unless your chef tells you to. And read it through, people. Read it through people and think before cooking. Two pre-ground pepper. You know what? I had to use pre-ground pepper in a demo once because I needed pepper and it's the only thing they had and someone
+
+[40:56] saw there was pre-ground pepper and called me freaking out on it. I'm still embarrassed this day because I detest pre-ground pepper. Well, so when I was at the Fat Duck, we had to, right before service because Heston wanted, wanted ground pepper of different sizes. It all had to be ground fresh. This was on my station, and I had to fill ramekins with fine sifted medium coarse, all had to be ground fashion. They had to be changed every hour, you know, throughout service. What a complete nightmare, but it makes a massive difference. Old pepper just tastes old. Yeah, old Pepper is my next band. Matt Wood right in. Tongs or any other dirty utensil hanging off apron strings a la Wyatt Earp? I think that fits in a lot with the side towels, right? What is it, a utility belt? Oh, I like that idea, though. Oh my god. Have you ever seen anyone in the real life wearing that butcher belt with the knife holders in it? I have actually in Portland, but then it's Portland, right? I'm not going to touch that one. Seattle versus Portland. Hashtag, whatever you call that crap. Omead Tavali writes in, anyone who steps into the kitchen wearing cologne or perfume and going for a smoke break in apron whites. We already hit that, that, but yeah, don't like, how are you supposed to smell food? If you yourself smell like flowers and like whatever else, musk. Just think about some sort. It's basically just chemical weapon assault by your colleagues. Yeah, I hate it. And I don't even, I like salmon and bacon, but I don't really like handling it that much in cooking. I don't like the active cooking with it because I know that it's going to be hard to get that off my hands, and I'm going to think that everything else has that scent in it for a couple of hours, no matter how much I scrub. Yeah. Well, worry about, I don't, I don't get perfume in the kitchen. Stas hates that super big, right, Stas? Yes. Scott Malloy writes in, leaving labels on deli containers. That sucks. Cook's afraid to wash their own dishes and people who go down because
+
+[42:48] they're afraid to ask for help going down, by the way, meaning you're in the weeds. You're cooking a lot, and your station crashes because you were afraid to ask for help because you were just too damn proud or too damn afraid. What do you think about that? Why would you do that to everyone? You know, this is this is always been a big mantra. You know, cooking at a professional level is all about teamwork. So, you know, either somebody on the team or they have no business being in that kitchen. Right, because it like, if you're proud, and you let yourself crash, because you're too proud to ask for help. It shafts every single person. It only takes one person to mess up the whole meal, which is one of the weird things about cooking. Uh, Henry Prontnicky writes in, uh, how about those that make the rules and are supposed to enforce them being the 1st to break
+
+[43:28] them? Ooh. Nobody likes that. Ian Bowden wrote in. Whistling drives me nuts. It's just, it's as distracting as hell and there's an old French superstition about it as well. A long time ago, my mentor would smack me in the back of the head for whistling or anything, for that matter. What do you think about the whistling? So my co-founder, Grant Curley, is a world-class whistler. So we've become quite taken with that, actually. So it's more like a soundtrack. It's just, it's sort of just cadence for the day. We need to get Ian and Grant in a room and have this like, we need to have this out. This needs to be had out. As long as we broadcast that, I'm on board. Sure. Sarah, Sarah Balzac, right, saying, when someone tastes your food and tells you it should be something other than what you made it that would change it entirely,
+
+[44:10] like, why don't you make your hard candy more chewy, or you should make the medium well steak more well
+
+[44:14] done. You hate that stuff? I hate that. I hate that stuff. It's like, yeah, that's bad. I mean, like that's obviously bad. Uh, Shuna Leiden wrote in. Disorganized chefs, cavalier cooks, smoking outside in whites. Aprons in the toilet. Ooh. I hate that. CVP without Prepless and not labeling. It's a good list. Pro Kitchen list, right? Jeremiah Bullfrog wrote in wet salt. I also hate the wet salt, which is why I use saline solution at the bar. And ideas in food chimed in, also, dirty salt in response. What are your thoughts on the salt getting wet and dirty there? Um, I'm actually sort of wondering what they mean by dirty salt, like, you know, filthy salt from just
+
+[44:52] handling that. I think like schmutz, you know how like, you know, you were, you were, you were sprinkling on meat and then flipping the meat and that little particle of meat on your finger got in the salt and is sitting there in the kosher
+
+[45:00] salt. Look, this is easy. dirty as dirty. Yeah, yeah. And bad. It's bad. John Daragon wrote in, not having cold food on cold plates, hot food on hot plates, unlabeled food containers in the fridge, and not turning pot handles sideways so that you bump into them when you walk
+
+[45:15] past, and people who store knives in drawers with other things. Hate? Duh. Yeah, all right, okay. Landon McDowell right saying cold ketchup. Yeah, why put your ears wasting fridge base with your cold ketchup? Ketchup don't go bad. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I don't like cold maple syrup either, although I understand the merit of keeping it in the fridge to stop mold growth, although mine never grows mold because I use it that fast. Yeah, that's why we have microwaves so we can warm it up. Right. But yeah, exactly. Elliot Papineau wrote in. I do not like the crust between the handle and blade of a spatula. I don't like dirty faucet knives, which is why I use foot pedals. And I don't like containers that are put away that are not fully dry. I'll add to that. I don't like it when people use containers without smelling them 1st or any vessel you put food in. Smell it first. I hate that when people don't do that. You know how much good food and liquor is ruined by not sniffing the freaking container before you use it. Jack the horse, brushing crumbs on the floor and not replacing that damn thing you emptied. What do you think? Obviously, you hate that. Yeah, yeah, that's just being an ass. Yeah. Be Ross right in. Any stainless steel on cutting boards. It freaks me out thanks to at Chef Keller and my friends at my stage at per se. What's the thing with stainless on cutting boards? You know about that one? No, I've never heard that. That's a thing. All right, B. Ross, send me more information. I must know what this is all about And kitchen, not having kitchen labels. Label everything, use just enough tape and not too much pound tape abuse. Pat Sherin wrote in. Pots on cutting boards. Hates that. Cooks who are late. Barely, barely on time, an unorganized dish area, and a non-condensed cooler. I didn't get the peregrination in here, unfortunately. non-condensed cooler. Also no notes in their notebooks. Hates that. Pat Schere, good man out in Chicago. Well, so I got one there. He had the pots on the cutting board. You know what I see a lot, especially home cooks, grocery bags on the
+
+[47:10] cutting board. That's filthy. Yeah, you put them in the, you put them in your car, you drive them around, then you come home, put them right on the cutting board. Yeah. Well, and the pots also, like, leave visible, visible filth. visible filth and, you know, and they burn them. People people yeah, you know what they used to do at the SCI? They used to stick because their students didn't use the flat tops that often. They would stick plastic bottles of ingredients, sometimes oil on flat
+
+[47:33] tops on flat tops. What is that, an IQ test? Flat tops. Hey, while I was working there, it happened more than 3 times. Caught fire more than twice. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and uh, Brandon uh, ballsley wrote in one more time. I'm guilty of at least 3 of these things that have been mentioned at all times. We're going to have to head out. Thanks so much for, uh, Chris, uh, at cookie, uh, at cookie
+
+[48:03] issues, at chef steps. We love you to come back whenever to be on the show. Can I give a can I give a quick plug, Dave? Yeah, but before you do, I want people to know that Howard, I need
+
+[48:12] everyone. Howard is traveling, who write wrote in, is traveling to Europe in about a month, Western Europe, and he wants to take in the
+
+[48:22] sight sound and the food. He's having a hard time deciding where he's going. So he wants everyone, you know, you know, listeners here to tell him where to go for the best culinary pilgrimages, pilgrimages,
+
+[48:33] epigurean experiences, must try dishes, or equipment shops in Western Europe. So that's broad, but let's get that information in. Jeff Stenjem. I going to answer your question on plastic wrap on Twitter. I got an answer for you. And if not, I'll answer it again next week when we come back. So go, do your plug. Okay, check out chefsteps.com. We've got a new course that we created. It's basically what every 1st year line cook should know and every home enthusiast should know about cooking tender cuts of meat and seafood, steak to salmon, how to cook meats like a pro. Sweet. Go check it out. Chris Young, thank you. Thank you Dave. All right, this has been cooking issues. Cooking his shoes. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:14] Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:53] Killing your questions, too! Cooking issues! Hello, and welcome to Cooking HD. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Burns Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How do you do, Stas? Good. At Jack in the engineering booth, Jack. And special guest today, my son, Booker,
+
+[1:22] Booker. How you doing? I'm doing great How do you do? I'm doing all right. Yeah, Booker's here at the show today. I took him out of school because we had to go look at another school. one of those parenting things. Did you enjoy the new school you were looking at? Yes. Yeah. You got anything else to say to the radio folk out there? They were very nice to me. They were? Are you looking forward to the pizza that we're going to have after the radio show? Yes. Oh, good. All right. Nice. It's extremely polite booker. This is like a whole new booker. You know, maybe, maybe, you know, a couple years you can have your own radio show. You seem so nice on the on the radio. Very cool. hope so. Good mic technique, too. Nice. Nice. Right? Right? Very pro. better than us. All right. So, I just have to make note that today is the 1st time in a very long time that Dave beat Nastasia to the studio. Yeah, that's true. Well, I would have been here even earlier, but apparently there's so many hipsters in this neighborhood now that it's actually difficult to
+
+[2:17] park. What? don't drive, though. Uh, yeah, they do. They drive their parents' cars with the with the dancing bears on the back when they when they drive in from Westchester to hang out with their hipster buddies that got that cool apartment in
+
+[2:30] Bushwick. Haven't you met those people? Yes, you have. Yes, I have. And I may or may not drive my grandma's car. What kind of sweet ride does your grandma have? It's a 95 Nissan centra. It's a beater. Nah, I like a beater. Okay, so let me get to some of the questions. I'm having some technical difficulties. So Booker's going to be, the only reason he's here is because I promised that he could use my computer throughout the entirety of the episode.
+
+[3:02] So the part of Nastasia will be played today by my son, Booker, who will be on the computer the entire time. But I'm not able to get... All right, he's putting on his computer headphones, but Booker, I'm actually going to have you use the iPad instead, all right? to plug in plug into that. I'm going to have to use my computer. All right. See? Alright. All right, nice. So so malleable. I love it. All right. Uh, yes, booker. doing a radio show here. We're leaving out what about one? Uh, yeah, right about one. Yeah. Okay. Senheiser? That's at the headphone stand them? Uh, Booker is enjoying the uh, the products here. Okay, now listen, last week when I when I ran out of time with Chris Young. fun, right? Yeah. That was kind of fun. It would have been even more fun if he were live in the studio, but he had to hang out in Providence, a place that Nastasia was actually supposed to be at the same time. And for some reason, even though I didn't know how I was preventing her from doing it, was lording it over my head. Did they have a good event there or no? Yeah, you had a great time. Yeah? You know, I've never been to that's Johnson and Wales up there, right? I've never been. Apparently they have like an intensely good cooking library. Did you know that? Yeah they do. Wow. I'm surprised. Nice. Surprised they care. I'm surprised you care. Surprised and my heart's a little gladder. Yeah. Okay, but I promise that I'll go over some of the cooking peas that I miss. Kitchen peeves that I missed getting to on last week's show. Hopefully I don't repeat any, but a bunch came in while I was on the, uh, while we were on the air and for some reason we're not technically sophisticated enough to be able to get stuff live. You know what I mean? We're no lair or low paid or anything like that. We can't. Yeah. All right. Josh Swanson wrote it. He's got a couple. using lids with holes in them to, quote, cover a product. Yeah, that sucks, right? Here's the thing, though. There's different kinds of the, like the, like the holes issue. Like, there's like giant holes. That's clearly problematic. Then there's like the moron that punches a hole in the lid. But then, right? There's the, I'm reusing the deli container that they punctured with like a penpoint so that the sucker doesn't blow up from the
+
+[5:08] steam. But those suck when you're trying to transport stuff. How many times have we had core containers go crap on us. And that's why even Nastasia, who generally doesn't care about such things. wraps the hell out of core containers with plastic wrap afterwards if we're going to transport them for
+
+[5:23] long distance, and hence has saved many a bag, even though we're morons for carrying core containers in our bags, but we do it
+
+[5:30] anyway because why? Because, well, actually, we haven't done it this year. This is our non-duct tape year. Remember? Yeah. You know what else I hate, though? Here another pet peeve. Crappy core containers. You ever like, like, you're like, meh, how much worse can the bad core container be? And the guy buys a whole bunch of bad core containers and they show up and the lids crack instantly and you're like,
+
+[5:50] oh, oh. and then court container after quart container cracks and spills the stuff all over everything.
+
+[5:57] It's like the worst. Remember, we bought a bad batch once. But it wasn't like we were being cheap. They just sent us the bad freaking batch. And a good core container is a joy in a pleasure. And you can reuse it again and again. Uh, you know, as long as you clean the onions out of it. And, you know, they're awesome. You know, I don't, you know, and I had said this before on the show. I don't think they're any less green than anything else because literally I'll use core containers for years, right? Unless they crack on 1st use, and then they're the worst things in the world. Josh also wrote in, oh, by the way, it turns out your laptop doesn't work like an iPad. you're trying to scroll my, scroll my laptop screen. Using the last of an item and then not adding it to a list of stuff to order. Now, this is one that sucks at home and at work. How many times it happened, someone uses the last of a staple, you assume you have it, no one's like, oh,
+
+[6:49] yeah, I use the last of the rice. Oh, how do you, it's not, how do you use the last rice? And not, another way, pisses me off major in like professional scenario is,
+
+[7:01] hey, look, we have a menu item, right? We have a menu item. We make it all the damn time, right? We're always making the menu item, right? You know that it requires this this product. I'll make it up, malic acid that you know is 2 days away. Malic acid also, less forever, is not expensive, and doesn't take up that much space. Why would you ever run out? Why would you ever run out? Like, you're down to £one? Order two? You're not going to take the stuff off and we're always going to be using the malic acid. Why would you ever run out? Should you ever run out, Stas? We ran out a lot. Yeah, well, but not without me getting quite angry about it,
+
+[7:41] right? Anyway, okay. Third, Josh writes in, Josh does not enjoy the bag inside of a secondary bag. But the question is why here because it's lazy. Sometimes I will put a bag in a bag when the bag sucks, but I want to maintain the label on the other bag temporarily. That's more of a home kitchen thing. That's not a pro thing. And a pro thing, you definitely don't want bags inside of bag. You definitely don't want this one where you have a bag inside of a bag, and then you pull out the crappy bag, and then that crappy bag is leaking, and then as you pull the crappy bag out of the outer bag, it sprays all over the
+
+[8:14] place because you can't get the stuff out of the bag on the inside without spilling stuff. Sucks, right? Sucks. Uh, Jimmy Crib, uh, whose uh, Twitter handle is at Val Kilmerson. is good. Are you a Val Kilmer? Kilmer fan? Don't really have an opinion? In one way or the other? You didn't like Top secret? didn't see it. All right. Win the front of house, ask for a towel and takes two. So what do you think, Stas? Do you think that the front of house, back of house hatred is like mellowing over time or about the same? You think it's going to change ever or no? I don't know. You're like, man, that I don't care about. Okay, our ostler and Kay Zucker from at Gypsy Kitchen wrote in, cell phones in the kitchen. Yeah, that kind of blows. Changing the oven temp when other things are still baking. Who does that? Anyone who does that should get like, I don't know, some sort of non-lethal, but like, uh, instant and uh, memorable punishment. Like, why would you do that? Why would you ever do that? Why would you, anyway? And improper rapping. Now here's the thing. Improper wrapping. So like at the French Culinary Institute, they're big advocates of like the major heavy-duty hotel rap over,
+
+[9:23] undersiways, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And this is very good in situations where you know that 18 people are going to touch a product, it's going into a shared refrigerator, it's going to get jostled and moved, and what you need it to be is completely bulletproof,
+
+[9:41] right? But then you have the people who hotel rap in any circumstance. And so dump 18 layers of plastic, for instance, on something when you're about to do a
+
+[9:50] demo. And what you really want to do is be able to get into the product without looking like a fool and
+
+[9:55] like and like unwrapping it like it's a freaking Christmas present. So I think proper wrapping is a matter of context, but improper wrapping always irritating. Right? Uh, Don Lee wrote in improper shoes showing up in slippers, sandals, or heels. And if you do that, I'm gonna send you home. Yeah, it's true, especially when we work with liquid nitrogen. You know what? It's like, uh, I had a guy once who, you know, his one of his things and like he had to stop himself from do it constantly is literally pouring boiling hot sauces on people when they wore open toed shoes.
+
+[10:29] He's like, he's like, oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had real shoes on. I'm sorry that your foot is scalded and burnt off. But you really have no business like wearing open toed anything in a kitchen. You know? True. Or things that are slippery. You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, if you bust your head, like that sucks for everyone, not just for you. Like you made a bad decision and wore bad shoes, but now you've slipped and broken your head. You've probably ruined some decent food. Probably, you definitely are shutting down that kitchen for a while while they scrape you off the ground and like figure out what's going on. There might be a lawsuit. everybody feels bad. you know, bad shoes, bad idea. Uh, which is not to me, I'm not feeling for the person that gets hurt. I'm just saying they shouldn't do that. to make everyone's life easier. Jay Schroeder wrote in, that guy who says hot behind every time he's moving around, and I
+
+[11:26] guess, presumably, even though the stuff's not hot. Keep crying, wolf, buddy. that's what Jay says. And like, that's why Stas and I are always joking lukewarm behind. Like, you know, tepid behind, behind, little bit, like, you know, like, I don't know, like bathwater temp behind. You know what I mean? Because most of the time people screaming behind. I'm all for letting people know behind, but there is a certain level of screamage that, I mean, look, on the other hand, it's a total safety thing. So like at some, if you don't scream behind, you know, then, you know, you get your
+
+[11:56] behind handed to you. But, you know, it doesn't need to be that, yeah, you don't need to overplay the hot. like the same things, like how many of you guys actually enjoy it when the, uh, when the waitron tells you that, uh, the plate is extremely hot, especially if you're a cook, you're like, that plate's not freaking hot. It's not freaking hot. It's like warm, maybe. When was the last time you had a plate that really actually hurt your hands, does. Like, I serve Korean stone bowls, Tolstoys. They come after the table at 615 degrees Fahrenheit. Plate hot. Your plate hot, but I think that's why a lot of people don't use those things because otherwise, if it wasn't for the fact that customers would burn their hands off all the time, there would be Korean stone bowls, the
+
+[12:37] Tolstads in every Applebee's in America. Why? Because all you need to do is pour a little bit of oil in the bottom, add rice, any other crap, any other
+
+[12:46] crap, some sauce, an egg on top. Delicious. But, you know what I mean? It's the easiest. Like, you could do an Applebee's. Tulsa, Applebee's, except for the fact that you'd be burning too many people and then you get in trouble. All right. A couple more of the peeves. Uh, bup, bup, bup, bup. Sam Bresla, the bacon life. wrote in, oversized knives on the line, and punching holes through the crystal wrap rather than removing all of it.
+
+[13:13] In other words, like punching a hole through the top and then trying to take the stuff out because you didn't want to undo the hotel wrap that someone did when they were
+
+[13:19] overeager and wrap the ever loving crap out of something. It's true. Although, what's an oversized knife on the line? That the question. Like, I literally, like, anything over 10? Do you consider 10 too much? I love a tenant chess knife. I just like the way they feel, right? And I can deal with an eight, but I don't want anything smaller than an 8 when I'm doing chopping. Do you mean like if someone's like busting out like a super long, like a like a tuna knife? Like, what are we talking about? Like what's too long? What do you think's too long for a knife? At what point do you think it's more of a, you know, a judge of your of your nether regions as some sort of a stand-in? I have no idea. I don't know. an interesting question. Buck Carter writes in, not checking fridges and your section properly. First order comes and you're back to the fridge to get something. So not getting all your mees out and having to travel back and forth to the fridge all the time. That's just weak thinking. It's weak thinking. Uh, Adam Shiro writes in, total lack of comprehending anything about surface area, presumably, yeah, I hate that too, but like that's like a real meta kitchen pee,
+
+[14:18] if you know what I mean? But yeah, not understanding how food cooking works. And two, burnt black smoking oil that tastes and smells like gasoline. Usually, to me, it like smells of like rotting fish and rancid nasty.
+
+[14:32] I hate that too. I freaking hate a bad oil smell. You hate a bad oil smell. In fact, I remember when we used to teach the sous vide low temp course, we would do a fry off on a bunch of
+
+[14:42] stuff and a bunch of times the oil went over temp. And now the combination of short ribs and over temp oil, I can just thinking about it makes me a little nauseated a little bit.
+
+[14:55] You know what I mean? I can, I can, anyone ever else have that? They have like specific things because I was also food poisoned when I did that class. I was really sick. remember that? And so I had to come in and teach the class, even though I was food poisoned and like, you know, couldn't even like really concentrate or C straight. And so like that assault of that smell on my system while I was already completely damaged has impregnated it in my head and ruined me on that. I can't tolerate it anymore. weird, right? It's weird how your body works that way. Uh, okay. And Jimmy Crib, again, back with when servers say, it's so hot, it's so hot back here, after only 30 seconds near the
+
+[15:34] line, he's like, you're making the tips, that's just weak. That's just weak that you get so if you can't stay. Jimmy is saying if you can't stay in the heat, you might as well want to get out of the kitchen. Uh, and last but not least, he writes in, filling court containers or Lexans to the brim. Oh, I hate that because when you open the core container, the stuff pours all out. You can't help it. Like unless unless you really have the fortitude to be like, ah, crap, and put the core container inside of a Cambro to open it so that you catch the spillage,
+
+[16:01] it's just dumb. That's just dumb. I hate that. Uh, and portioning out proteins before they're cool. Man, presumably me cutting it so that they dry out and turn nasty. Also, I'll leave one. When people when the people slice for portions before they go out, weigh the hell too early, like for,
+
+[16:18] like if you're going to send out like sliced meats or like a duck breast and you, and you, and then they crisp it off and they do a great job, they put it out to
+
+[16:25] rest and then they slice it like, like 5 minutes, 10 minutes before that sucker's going to go out to the customer and it looks all old and
+
+[16:31] nasty. I don't think people do that more than a day. I used to see that all the time in the final exams for the students, but if you did that for more than a day at a restaurant, you'd be like beaten senseless, which you can't do at the
+
+[16:41] FCI. The SCI weren't allowed to beat students Census, as it turns out. Because it's a strange thing. They were customers as well as as like workers. So it's like weird thing. That's actually the hardest thing Stas had to wrap her head around. I was like, you know, you're not allowed to go ape tasticle on these people's does because they're also your customer. She's like, I don't get it. I don't get. internet here. Wait, hold on. I'll do that on the break. Yeah, we'll get you internet on the brake books. Okay, here's some peas that I have. Wrapping. I think I said some of these on the order. wrapping things in aluminum foil that aren't labeled and putting them in a fridge. I can do a bunch of home ones because we got mainly pro stuff. I hate that. And once you wrap something in aluminum foil and put it in my fridge, you might as well have thrown that sucker in the freaking garbage, especially if you wrapped
+
+[17:22] it and you're only at my house for an hour and you wrap it and you put it or whatever, 3 hours, 4 hours eating. You put it in the fridge and then I don't know what it is and it's garbage. I'm getting hot Booker, you should take off your coat. Wasn't that one of the pet peeves right there? Yeah, well, yeah, he's in the kitchen here for like 30 minutes. Oh, my God. My own son. Putting kitchen equipment away when you don't know where it goes so that the guy who lives in the
+
+[17:50] kitchen, it works in the kitchen all the time, can't find it, and has to spend half an hour finding the peeler. This is why I have 4 freaking identical coon recon Y peelers in my kitchen so that 3 separate people can shaft me and put the freaking peeler away in a place that I don't know where it
+
+[18:08] is and I still have one left and yet still, time and again, I occasionally will have to spend 15 minutes looking for a peeler. I hate this. The problem because your maid keeps hiding them. I don't have a maid or whatever you call her. I don't have a maid. Stas is like classic on like not caring about people at all. She doesn't care about. Oh, they're made, whatever. Uh, using my knives without asking or anyone's knives. I would never walk into somebody's kitchen and, like, you know, pick up their, like, chef's knife and just start using it without asking whether that's the knife I should use. And very similar thing, cutting on top of
+
+[18:42] surfaces without asking whether it's okay to cut on top of the surface. How many times has this happened to you stars? People just come and they take your knife and then they start chopping on top of something they should be chopping on top of. No, it doesn't happen. Why? Because you killed him first? I thought you said you had bad friends. Oh, I think Stazza said, no, I don't care. I don't know to every single one of these. Not smelling boards or containers for things like onions. Pros who come to your house and knees out all of your stuff when you only need a little bit for a recipe. Like, I need some potatoes, and so they peel and cut every potato you have in the house, the entire £5
+
+[19:16] sack. That ever happen to you? What do you do for a living? Not sitting down when I tell you to sit down at the table for
+
+[19:25] eating? I hate that, right? And not having the table set when I've told you half an hour in advance that the
+
+[19:31] dinner's going to be ready in a half an hour. I hate that. That never happens to you. No, they get things done for as bad as they are, they get things done. Your friends do? Nice. Messing with food in a pan for no freaking reason. This stuff's just sitting there. It's sauteing or it's crisping up on the bottom or it's rendering it's fat. It's mining its own business. Don't dork with the food. I hate that. Do you not care about that one either? Does that one bother you? Only Claire does that. does it bother you? I told her. Yeah, see, you do tell her. All right, nice. Uh, here's when Stas is going to be mad at before. Worrying about your personal comfort while you're cooking. It's too late. Your cooking. Now the only thing that matters is the food. If you cared about your personal comfort, the time to care about it was before you started cooking. But Stas hates that about me because I never take my personal comfort into consideration in any circumstance whatsoever. I don't get that one though. Like, oh, I'm going to go change or, oh, I need to pee. No, no. You should have peed beforehand. Like the clothes that you are now cooking with, you're now finishing. It's not time to go worry about other crap, your own comfort, or something that you forgot to do during the day. Now comes the time of the day where we care about the food, and the food is the only thing that matters. Like, oh, my hand's a little burnt. Okay, if it's majorly burnt, that's one thing. If it's a little bit burnt, you suck it up and you care for it after the food comes out. That's it. It's like when you're there, when you're cooking, you are not a person with your own thoughts and desires. What you are is a machine to make the best possible food that you can make. That's it. Everything else is BS in my in my opinion. All right, so that's good for the peas. Jeff, right? Yeah. Anything else? you have any peas that you hate? You just don't want to call them out? No, I don't. Not nice. All right. Well, I'll take one more. Jeff is not a pee. Jeff Stanjem told me how to pronounce it, by the way. Apparently pronouncing it incorrectly, but it's as close as an American's going to be able to get Jeff's engine. writes in. Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe, and hello, Chris, although I'm sorry we missed Chris. We talked about it a little bit because it's Chris's recipe, but we mentioned it last week. and I'll give you the shout out for Booker as well. Hey, Dave, I contacted you about 18 inch non-PVC plastic wrap on
+
+[21:36] Twitter the other day. So plastic wrap, for those of you that know, typically home plastic wraps now are made of polyethylene, which is generally considered food safe, doesn't have
+
+[21:45] plasticizers in it. It can still have solvents in it that haven't flashed off if it's done poorly, but
+
+[21:51] the, it's generally considered fairly inert, whereas the other, although it's poor gas barrier. Uh, the other one uh, that's in common use is PVC, uh, better gas barrier, actually, uh, however, has the possible nasty effect
+
+[22:06] of uh, having uh, estrogenic or some compounds in it that you don't want. Nasties, right? And there's a lot of research out there and a lot of back and forth, but I in general tend to avoid
+
+[22:16] PVC for food contact. I've been making, this is back to the question. I've been making Chef Step's version of a chicken roulade with meat glue
+
+[22:25] translutaminates, which is a great technique. You know, I've been plastic wrapping. You know, Nils 1st showed me how to do Nils Norin, showed me how to do the plastic wrap tubes because back at Akavit, you know, years and years ago, he would shape every meat into
+
+[22:39] it too. We used to joke with nils that like, you know, in nils's world, if nils were God, all animals would just grow in the shape of a tube so that they could be cooked evenly and portioned evenly and served out.
+
+[22:52] Like he would have, in his mind, fish swim through the oceans as perfect tubes and shrimp, you know, flap around as perfect
+
+[22:59] tubes. cows are perfect tubes, small perfect tubes. Anyway. And he's very good at making perfect tubes with plastic wrap. Chicken roulade with meat glue. I wanted to try it with larger cuts of meat, making the 12 inch wrap that I use a challenge to tie off. You suggested trying a supermarket. Unfortunately, supermarket brands, stop making wider wrap, which is the source of my problem. I've looked at every restaurant supply store and food wholesale market in Seattle, and I searched online and cannot find any 18 inch wrap without PVC that doesn't sound worthless.
+
+[23:33] I've read Chris's plastic safety article at the modernist site and chef's
+
+[23:37] steps and made me rethink my use of PVC and the possible estrogenic effects. For myself, I don't really care. Sounds like he just does. But I have a daughter that visits in the summer and we like to experiment. I also regularly cook for people with children. I was researching and found an article that interviewed Harold McGee, and he mentioned cryovac bags. He said that because the layer in contact with the food is polyethylene, it lowered his concern about the PVC and outer layers. Real cryo backbags are multi-layered, and yeah, usually have some sort of polyethylene or similar inner layer on the inner side.
+
+[24:06] Since it looks like I'm stuck with PVC. I was wondering if wrapping a layer of 12 inch polyethylene around the
+
+[24:12] meat and then using the PVC to form and tighten the package would effectively prevent plasticizers from migrating to the roulette. It tough to say. It depends on how porous they are and things in plastics tend to migrate back and forth with each other. And, uh, yeah, depending on how they're made, and, you know, and also, especially these things are typically more lipophilic, the answer to that question is I don't know. Um, Although it depends also on how long the contact's going to be. Presumably it's not going to be that long the contact. I have been able to find data on this, but don't have access to journals. I was not able to find data on that either. What do you think about this idea, the dual use? If you don't have a clue? Do you have any suggestions about where I could go next? research? Should everyone that uses this technique, uh, uh, uh, ask people like polycience to carry wider, safe plastic wrap with their bags? I want to thank all of you, cooking issues, Harris, radio, and chef test for everything that you do. Getting entertained by Dave and the Hammer every week, makes learning a joy, and Chris's site is a daily part of my life. Looking forward to the arrival of my Sears all. Thanks again, Jess and Jim. Okay, so listen. Here's the here's the secret. You don't need to have the length of plastic wrap.
+
+[25:21] Okay, so I want you all to picture what's going on in your head here. You're taking a work surface. I like going directly on the stainless. Don't do it on a cutting board. The reason why is the cutting board. will slip around as you work, even if you have, you know, the wet paper towel under
+
+[25:36] the, uh, under the thing. Use directly your work surface. Get a, like a damp towel and put a line of moisture,
+
+[25:43] right? On the, on your work surface and then spread out a piece of plastic wrap. The moisture's at the top, and then you can pull a little bit on the plastic wrap to get a
+
+[25:52] nice taut flat sheet of plastic wrap on your work surface.
+
+[25:56] Now, the width, as you're looking at the width, right? which is what Jeff's talking about here. It needs to be wide enough, such that your entire roulade or tube, whatever you're going to make into a tube. The entire thing fits with you have enough place to hold on the end and wrap back and forth like a rolling pin, pull it, you know, to form the
+
+[26:16] tube. So it forms a tube much like a sausage tube, right? It needs to be wide enough for that to happen. But here's what I think that you're missing, Jeff, that that's going to help you out, is that you can use, see, what you're using is you're using the width of the plastic wrap, right, as
+
+[26:32] the, as the width of the roulade, and then cutting the plastic wrap such that, you know, you're, you're, you're doing the length front to back. No, no, no, no, no. When you do very large roulades or even normal sized ones if you only have small plastic wrap. What you do is, is you have the width of the plastic wrap line up front to back and you just tear off larger pieces, right? And so you're doing it 90 degrees to the way that you're doing it. Now you can make the roulette as long as you want. And it turns out that if you layer the plastic wrap, right, one, and then you leave an inch and a half, excuse me, an inch and a half or 2 inches of overlap between the 1st piece and the next piece that you layer over it, right, that you're not going to get leakage, especially because you're going to be
+
+[27:19] pulled, you're rolling it into a tube and you're going to put multiple layers on anyway.
+
+[27:23] So what I would recommend is doing it that way. Uh, cutting, going the wide way, making it as wide as you want, putting one layer, start always as far away from you as possible, make it taut, put the next one on, overlap, like two, maybe even 3 inches, and pull it down, and then you should be able
+
+[27:40] to uh, do your roulade that way. It'll roll up, it'll roll up nicely, and when you put the 2nd layer on, because I always recommend doing 2 layers, when you
+
+[27:49] pull wrap it tight once, fold the pigtails under, and then wrap again, you will not get leakage through that, through that section.
+
+[27:58] So that's how I recommend, and you can take any size plastic wrap you have within reason and do any size roulette within within reason. I mean, we used to do very big ones for demonstrations at the FCI and that's how we do it. So hopefully that helps. Let's take our 1st commercial break. Before we go to a break, Dave? I just got a message from a listener named Wyatt who says with no, nothing else. I would buy a shirt that says enemy of quality with Dave's face on it. FYI. Yeah? Yeah. So just something to think about. All right. All right. Nice. All right, cool. We'll be right back. Since 2001, Heritage Foods USA has sold pasture raised antibiotic free heritage meets to restaurants and homes around the country.
+
+[28:43] Our farmers raise their animals with care using traditional methods, guaranteed to produce the very best tasting meat. Our pork breeds include Berkshire, Red Wattle, Durok, Gloucester Oldspot, Large Black, and Tamworth, and our beef comes from Piedmontese, Angus, Akiushi, Belgian
+
+[29:02] blue, Highland, Cemental, and belted Galloway cattle. We also carry a rotation of 24 rare breeds of heritage chicken, seasonal specialties like lamb, goat, geese,
+
+[29:14] and of course, heritage turkeys. Visit us online at www.heritagefoodsusa.com or give us a call at 718-3890985 to place your order today. And we're back. And we are, so who's, who's, who brought us a show today? Heritage Foods, USA, Heritage Foods USA.com. Yeah? You have anything nice? You like those guys? Yeah, they're good people. Yeah, I hear they've got some good stuff. All right, so Jack, you want to talk hot sauce? Yeah, I do. We're participating in a hot sauce expo with our pal, Jimmy Carbone, and I had a few listeners kind of wondering what your thoughts on the extreme hot sauce people, you know. Do you like really, really hot, hot sauce? Is that ridiculous to you? Where do you stand? So here's the thing. There are there are, it depends on how hot is hot, right? So let's just, before we get into sauces. Let's talk peppers, right? habaneros are delicious, for instance, right? And, you know, when I was, you know, a 20 year old, the habanero was the hottest pepper that you could get, they were still relatively difficult to source in regular
+
+[30:25] supermarkets. At the time, you had to go to a specialty place and they were hot, but everybody realized that habaneros had a reason for existence,
+
+[30:34] right? They tasted really good. They had this kind of amazing, like floral, uh, fruity aroma that, you know, other, most other peppers didn't have, and kind of a real, a nice character to the spiciness. And so there were some extreme hot sauces that had habanero as the base, and they tasted really good because they tasted like habanero, but you had to use them sparingly because they were very
+
+[30:58] hot. Now, let's let's ramp up to current hot peppers, hot, hot peppers. Nagajolokia, the ghost pepper. You know what? That thing tastes like nothing. It doesn't taste interesting. It not interesting. It's just damagingly hot. Uh, and so, you know, prior to that, back when I was, uh, you know, when I, I think I've mentioned this on the show before, when I was, uh, when I got out of college, I didn't really have a decent job, I was, you know, uh, waiting to
+
+[31:24] start up work as a paralegal, and my, my wife had a really good job working for Caesar Pelles, you know, a very famous architect, especially at the time, uh, in New
+
+[31:32] Haven. And so I sat around with a fried daddy training myself to eat hot peppers by frying deep frying habanero chili rienos and just eating them one after the other until I was completely inured to capsation,
+
+[31:44] right? So I said to myself, okay, I can take this. And so what's the next step? At the time, the next step after, um, this is before super, like, in Day's insanity sauce and stuff was out, at least before I knew about it. And, um, Although there was, at the time, like, the whole hot and salsa thing was taking off kind of great guns. This is in 9092, 93 around that time. And, uh, you know, I kind of realized there was a market for just, you know, who
+
+[32:14] could, who can, you know, what's a polite way of saying this? It's like, you know, just kind of like proving your manhood by by eating hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter things, right? And then subsequently proving that, you know, women can eat as hot of a thing as
+
+[32:28] a D-bag guy can eat and things just got hotter and hotter and hotter. And I was caught up in that. I guess because I was young and dumb. And so I sourced a bunch of the oleo resin, which is the stuff that you use to just add pure heat. The stuff that comes with, like, legit warning labels of bad things happening to you if you eat it. I sourced it from industrial supply, you know, way back in the day. And I realized this stuff just doesn't have any good taste. And so then a lot of the hyper hot sauces that have come out, uh, to me, taste of that oleo resin, which is fundamentally pure spice and the dregs of what maybe at one time was a decent chili, but is now just
+
+[33:06] uh, just about spice. And so there's very little flavor in those things. And, you know, I'm not trained anymore. So like I don't like things as super hot, although I can still take it better than most people
+
+[33:17] can. Um, so my, my, my point is if it helps the flavor, then I'm all, all for it, you know? And if it's just done as a stunt. I think it's kind of a crappy idea. I think it's especially a bad idea to put intensely hot things
+
+[33:34] all over like otherwise nuanced foods because you're just going to ride over the top. I don't care how good you are. Even at the height of my training with eating hot stuff, I would have to have admitted that, you know, it's going to be very difficult to tell, you know,
+
+[33:49] I mean, you could tell texture is fine, but like the actual kind of, um, you know, base note flavors and stuff is just so much going on in your mouth that it
+
+[33:58] just, it's hard to tell what the hell's going on. It's, you know, there's a fine line to it, but there's definitely a place where I think even the biggest
+
+[34:04] spice of file will realize that the line's been crossed. And, you know, that's why, you know, at the bar, we've had a bunch of spicy
+
+[34:12] drinks, and, you know, my point is, yeah, I can take it, and I like the spice even, but are we still balanced? Are we still in the business of doing something that's balanced or not? Is this making sense, Jack, or no? Sorry I was distracted, Dave. Yeah, all right, great. You asked me the question. I dont even know whether I answered it right. All right, whatever. We had a guest come in. Yeah. All right. Well anyway, so my point is, my point is, you know, I'm fine with the super hot
+
+[34:35] sauces. I used to like the ones that have a lot of flavor. In fact, the most interesting one we had was called, it wasn't spicy at all. It was a pepper sauce made by Dune North in New Zealand. It was sent to us by a listener and was a completely non-spicy pepper sauce that had such a rich pepper flavor.
+
+[34:53] I love that. You know what I mean? I love it. Luckily, they sent me 2 bottles. And so we lost one because I think we lost at Roberta's. We brought it to the table and we're eating it and then it got bust away or something. We lost it, but, you know, I was able to keep the other one. So someday they will ship it to the US event. All right. Jack's like, I don't know, I don't care. Uh, did we talk last week about vacuum marinating in a, in a, in a, in a ISI whipper? Not that I can recall. All right. Well, clearly it's not vacuum marinating, but Brendan Lee wrote in and said, can you talk about vacuum marination of meat in a siphon?
+
+[35:30] Well, okay, so look. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, in vacuum marination, what you're doing is pulling a vacuum on a piece of meat
+
+[35:39] in thereby. We have talked about this over the past couple of weeks of trying to accelerate the rate at which
+
+[35:44] cure brine goes in. This actually dovetails with something that was written in by Harry that we're going to deal with in a minute. He says, hey, Dave, have you seen physicist Greg Blonder,
+
+[35:58] B-L-O-N-D-E-R's website, which is www.genuineideas.com. Have you seen his website where he plays around with cooking? You might be interested in this investigation he did about die. So if you go to, if you look up Die, you know, Greg Blonder and like Food Die, I'd seen some of his research, but this article is really awesome. It talks about rate of diffusion of different molecules into different meats at different rates and how they work. So it'd be interesting to combine that with vacuum stuff because I don't think he did that yet, but it's fantastic read. I recommend everyone who hears this goes to check out that
+
+[36:36] page because it's really, I think it's really good work. Uh, but... So when you're doing vacuum marination, that's one thing in the ISI bottle and a siphon, you're doing the opposite. You're trying to use pressure to force, um, to force under pressure liquid into meats. And in fact, I thought of the reason I thought of rapid infusion at all was a guy named Mr.
+
+[37:03] Fizz was using his carbonation system to pressure inject marinades into meats. So it definitely works. I would recommend doing a double a double pressure. So, I don't know whether I did publish it, actually, or I should say, Paul published it on cooking issues. You can do infusion in an ISI, just like you can in a vacuum where you pressurize the stuff in under pressure. The question is, you want to release it slowly. Here's why. When you pressurize, when you pressurize a product into a piece of meat, let's say, you're also injecting in air, you're compressing any air that's in there, you're compressing it down very
+
+[37:42] small. When you release the pressure, the air will re-expand again. It will tend to leave and will also tend to generate pores within it that allow further penetration on the next
+
+[37:53] go around, but you definitely want to put 2 different pressure cycles on it. But it definitely works. And if you look at Mr. Phiz's old stuff back in the day, you can see him. It's really gross, actually, because he's doing in a plastic bottle and you can see chicken getting injected with brine under pressure, but I definitely recommend 2 pressure
+
+[38:11] pushes, not one. And you can also do it if you if you happen to have a, uh, if you happen to have like a corny keg and and, uh, like a larger system, you can, you can do it in a corny keg as well. I have not done um, I have not done it with CO2, which is what you would probably use in a larger corny keg because you probably don't have a nitrous tank like I do, but I've had people try it and tell me that when they cook the meat afterwards, presuming that you cook it properly,
+
+[38:37] well, I say properly, I mean, you know, all the way through to a warm temperature, that there will be no more residual CO2 taste, but I cannot vouch for this because I have not tried it.
+
+[38:48] But you should be able to do like, you know, a whole suckling pig that way in
+
+[38:51] a, in a, well, no. I mean, you have to be able to fit it through the lid of the corny cake, but as long as you put it in the corny cake. There's other things, by the way, you can get what's called a pressure pot. If you don't want a corny keg, uh, that they use for spray painting, and that you could fit like a whole uh, turkey into. You can get them at like, uh, what's that, what's that tool store? Harbor freight. You can get it like harbor freight. Just be careful because the insides of them aren't necessarily food grades, so you're
+
+[39:16] going to want to put stuff in a plastic bag and I bought one once that smelled like petroleum for forever and I wasn't able to get the petroleum smell out. I wasn't using it for food, so please, I don't want to hear it. Yeah, all right. Okay. Howard, what? OGS what? So bad? Right. Uh, Howard wrote in. Let me see if I get it. Oh, no, Harry, I got Harry. Harry was chatting with the pastry chef I work with and we had a quick question. We've been doing an aerated chocolate, a tempered chocolate, I aside, into a container, and then placed in a vacuum
+
+[39:45] machine as a Mingel D's. Mean LDs. You like that French word? Do you like little petty 4 things, little small things? I like, I don't do crap. And we're curious if there's any way to dispense some of the chocolate into the container, then layer a denser thing, perhaps a praline paste, and then more of the
+
+[40:01] chocolate with the idea that when the mixture goes into the vacuum, the denser material will fill all the holes that are created in the aerated
+
+[40:07] chocolate. Thanks, Harry. Now listen, uh, I don't think so. I'm just going to go ahead and say I don't think so. Now, I'm always wrong, but my feeling is this. When you're aerating chocolate. The, what's happening is, is that there are already, remember I said before, there's minute air air bubbles in pockets, inside of your product, right? Especially when you ISI it. It's not really air. There is some air, but it's nitrous oxide and small stuff. When you're putting it in the vacuum machine. What's happening is you are inflating that. You're inflating that and then setting it. But, uh, there's not a migration of that air out or that nitrous out. If there was, you would lose the structure because the chocolate can't hold its own structure that way until after it's set into a solid.
+
+[40:53] And so my feeling is you're going to have a closed cell phone. And in a closed cell phone where there's no actual continuous path between the different pockets, the different, you know, whatever you want to call them, air cells,
+
+[41:07] nitrous cells. There's no way to infuse stuff into them. Now, what would be possible to do is to, um, is to make a, uh, some sort of like BD
+
+[41:20] sauce and then, uh, like emulsify or mix that in and then do it that way, even maybe with a possible, also, uh, secondary aeration.
+
+[41:32] So it was a little less hard than it would otherwise be. But I don't see any way to do it directly the way you're saying. You can get it to layer, but you wouldn't be able to get those holes filled with something else. But as I say, I have been wrong many, many, many times. So it might be a situation where you could aerate the block. Cut the block open, and then there might be some open passageways through it, and then you could post infuse a product into it once it's solid.
+
+[41:57] Uh, but, you know, then you're going to have, uh, you're going to have other difficulties. But I think it's going to be a very difficult, very difficult proposition. Um, Okay. So Howard wrote in last week and I did not get any tweets in on this. And, you know, Stas didn't give me any good ideas of where you should go in Europe, even though she does
+
+[42:17] nothing, but wishes she could go back to Switzerland. But he wrote in last week. Big fan, longtime listener. I'm playing my 1st trip to Europe with my brother in about a month, now a little less than a month. While I'm there, I want to take insight sound, and most importantly, the food, I'll be sticking to Western Europe for this trip, but I'm having a hard time deciding where to go. I was hoping I could pick your brain and the brains of the folks at the heritage radio network for ideas on culinary pilgrimages, pilgrimages. Epicurean experiences and must try dishes or go to equipment shops. Keep up the amazing work. Howard. All right, look. Howard, here's the thing. No one's writing in on this, even though I asked him to. It's all right, it's all right, it's all right. But here's how I go about this sort of thing. If I haven't been to a place before, right? Uh, I will sometimes ask people, you know, like where, you know, where we should go. So, like, for instance, if you're going to London, you need to go to Neil's Yard Dairy and have the cheese, right?
+
+[43:06] Uh, should go to my friend Tony's bar. You should go to, I mean, if you have the time, obviously, you should go to the fact. All these things. Like there's, you know, there's there's great restaurants. I could give you a list of great restaurants. If you're going to be anywhere near Kent, you should go to Faversham and go to the farm. If you're going to go to Paris, you know, and you want to go to a good shop. I, you know, I can't even pronounce it, but there's that awesome old shop. It's called like the, the, Gilaran or something like that. It's amazing. 200 year old shop filled with a bunch of curmudgeons that you need to go to or like Bertolomet, which is, I think, on the Rudigrenouille, which
+
+[43:37] is like, you know, my favorite cheese shop, and you got to go to the Madlane. You know, you got to go get macarons up in, like, you know, near the Rue Med Lane. You got to go to Fushon. you gotta do all that stuff. But, you know, if you're, you know, what you should do, what I highly recommend, anytime I'm going someplace, what I do 1st is I go
+
+[43:54] and, believe it or not, Wikipedia and I just go ballistic on reading whatever the local crap is that they have that no one else has. One, right? So, and by the way, every place that I've ever been in Europe has really interesting things to
+
+[44:08] eat and interesting things to see from a food standpoint. And any place you go, you should always find out when and where the best markets are, where hardcore people shop. Right? And you need to go there early enough in the day so that you get an idea of what's going on. And then you should ask them for only products that are from around that region or that are
+
+[44:27] peculiar peculiar or typical to that region. So that's the 1st thing, whenever I'm going to another place, I make sure that whoever is hosting me or
+
+[44:35] wherever I'm going or whatever I'm doing, I have time to visit local markets and see what's going on.
+
+[44:40] That's where I learn that the most. I also like to go to a local supermarket to figure out what like the average person is shopping in a supermarket, figure that out, although that's maybe not exactly what you're talking about. Uh, and then, uh, I just do a lot of research searching and finding out what the local, uh,
+
+[44:56] local, fabulous dishes are, or at least the ones that are only uh, available there and not available uh, anywhere else. And that's really, and I just do like a boat ton of reading beforehand. Um, but I, you know, always make sure that I get, I hit those. I hit those things. At this point in my life, I have so much kitchen crap that I rarely go to... I rarely buy hard goods anymore. I'm mainly interested in foods that I can't bring home and can't have otherwise. And if you got the money for it and the time, you know, I recommend like once in a vacation, going to like a really like butt kicking, like
+
+[45:34] a 3 star, you know what I mean? I would only do it like once or so, I think otherwise you get kind of palate fatigue, try to figure it out. Uh, you know, which one you want to go to, but it's always a good experience to do. Yeah? Helpful advice? No. Yeah, whatever. Just I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't care. You get to go to Europe soon. I am going. I'm going to, actually, I'm bringing Booker does not want to go to Paris. He will not go, he will not. Hey, Booker. Yes. Do you want, do you, why do you not want to go to Paris with me? Because I hate leaving the country. All right. Hates leaving the country. Nice. All right. Why? Okay, Booker, why do you hate leaving the country? Because I really love home. And I'm worried that if we get caught. In a foreign country, we would get lost. Just like in Japan, once you got lost. But am I back? Yes. When did you get lost? I didn't get lost. It's in his mind that he thinks I got lost. I never got we never... Nastasia was with me in Japan. We didn't get lost. Anyway, he doesn't want to go. And you know what I said to him? I said, Booker, someday you're going to regret not going. And what did you say? I'll never regret. I hate leaving USA and I will never leave my home. Wow. Real patriot like his father. Well, no, I like traveling places. Anyways, Dax is going to go to Paris with us. And so I'm going to take him, hopefully, although it's not my favorite time of year for cheese in France. Like, like, uh, the Vashran Mondor that we get at Bartolomeo. of my favorite things on earth. Anyway, okay. Steve Crandall writes saying, hello, love your show. It's very informative, entertaining. I would like to know how you make your pizza sauce and what cheeses do you use on your pizza? What can I do to my blodget 981 oven to make it reach very high temperatures like you did your home oven? Uh, Although, remember, my oven at home was a garland. My new one is a wolf, which is the same thing as a Vulcan. I listened to an earlier episode where someone was having trouble with lumpy shrinking dough. When I have dough like that, I put it back in the fridge for another day or 2 and then it's very easy to work with. Also, this is a separate question. If I brine my chicken wings, will that make their uncooked shelf life longer? If so, how long would you hold them before cooking? All right, I'll answer that one first. Uh, you'll probably, uh, that was from Pat in Old Forge. Wait, that was from Pat. It says from Pat, but then up top it says that it's from Steve Crandall, which one is it? Scramble. All right. Well, I'm sorry, one of you. shafting one of you. Anyway, uh, so you're gonna, yeah. Yeah, you're going to get some extension in shelf life whenever you salt something out or at least you will slow the microbial growth, but a lot depends on exactly what brine strength you're talking about.
+
+[48:03] And, uh, in general, I wouldn't use that as a as like a hold safe technology, you know? Although I've had fermented chicken and spare ribs that were held for a long time because they had to ferment. Andy, you know, used to do those. They are delicious. Andy Ricker does that fermented spare rib thing, which I think is really awesome. Anyway, so back to your other question. Blodget 981 oven, for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, is a deck oven, a commercial deck oven. The one that I saw online is gas fired. And it only goes up to 500 degrees, which is not very good. Now, here's what here's what I'm going to tell you. Anything you do to this oven could potentially render what? That was Pat. right. Pat, I don't know what was Steve then? I miss his question? You must, you must be up. Whatever. above the page? I don't know. Sorry, Pat, this is your question. So here you are. So anything you do, could potentially be unsafe, uh, could and will cause the outside of the oven to get much hotter than a normal commercial oven normally gets because they don't have as good
+
+[49:06] insulation. You might cause other ancillary bad things to happen. I'm just letting you know. Now, there are 2 things. What I did in my oven was my original oven was I used the existing gas delivery system, right? And in the old garlands, when you crank the thermometer up the thermostat all the way, it actually goes into runaway mode, meaning that it's no longer thermostatically
+
+[49:29] controlled. And when it's in runaway mode and not thermostatically controlled anymore. The maximum temperature that oven can get to on its own is roughly
+
+[49:37] 560, 570 degrees Fahrenheit. Now, so what can you do? Well, you can add more power. Duh. So I put, uh, I put in, uh, 2 electrical heating elements to boost the power and that's what allowed me to get up to, uh, 850 or change degrees because I added extra electrical heating
+
+[49:57] elements. Now you have to be very careful. You have to get what's called oven wire, actually even heavier duty wire than oven wire, where the insulation can withstand those kinds of temperatures. You want to put them through ceramic grommets on the way through the oven so that when they go out and you want to put extra installation there so that you don't
+
+[50:12] zorch or zap yourself, right? Now, in your deck oven, that's probably going to be more difficult. What I would do for you is I looked it up and it actually has just a plain thermostat in it. So the 2 things you can do is increase the BTUs of that unit, right, by adjusting the actual burner elements that are in it. And two, replace the thermostat. I looked up, and in fact, you can just go buy a stock thermostat for that blodget. the FDTH thermostat. They will take it up to 650 degrees Fahrenheit. Now, on my oven, right, where I can put, in fact, have already my new oven, my wolf slash Vulcan, where
+
+[50:49] commercial again, where I put the 2 heating elements in. The problem is, is that that thermostat's not in runaway. So another thing you can do is you can put the, you can leave your old thermostat in. I'm not recommending you do this, please don't do this. I'm not recommending you do this. It's physically possible to put a T in. Never bypass the safety valve, the Bezo, never bypass the Bezo safety valve. But you can safely, if you are trained in doing gas piping, bypass the
+
+[51:15] thermostat so that you can put the entire oven into runaway without replacing it. Then once the oven's in runaway, then you need a thermocouple to measure how hot it's getting
+
+[51:24] in runaway. If when you put the thing in, by the way, runaway just means full on gas. If when the thing's in runaway, it's getting hot enough for you, then you're done. If not, then you can think about augmenting the burner, putting a secondary,
+
+[51:37] uh, maybe electrical unit in the top to boost the power a little bit, and it doesn't take much. It doesn't take much. But those are things that I would look at. There's also a steam injection kit for that, which would be pretty cool. I think blodgets are good. I used to have a blodget electric convection oven, and I had to get rid of it because I don't have the power anymore, but I love that damn thing. Oh, we're out out of time. Our next guest be there. Unfortunately. All right, so listen, I asked on the Twitter today for
+
+[52:03] for people to send me bad Yelp reviews, reviews of Yelp that were like crappy, apparently I'm not going to have time to go into my rant slash musings on Yelp, the good, the bad, and the
+
+[52:16] ugly, and the stupidity of some people that yelp out at you.
+
+[52:20] So we'll have to do the Yelp next week, cooking issues.
+
+[52:30] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage radionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[52:57] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the international culinary center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and
+
+[0:08] bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting. For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from
+
+[0:22] Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Cooking issues.
+
+[1:00] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwork, Brooklyn. Right? I think so. Go any questions to you, 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Little bit of a sad note on the program today. Joe, from the engineering booth has left us, has left us, but we have Evan in the booth today, am I right? That we do? Yeah, there, good. So, uh, yeah, so what we seen, uh, well, hearing more of uh, 11, I guess as time goes on. We know what Joe's moved on to? More band stuff. Big ups. Nice. Awesome. So, you know, as you may or may not know. Joe is the front man in a band. the band name again? Big ups. Oh, big ups. I thought you were giving him big ups. They're like, big ups for Joe moving on into thing. No, the band's name is big ups, and we can give Joe big ups. I'm sure he has something on the iTunes. He does? Yeah, yeah. and follow him on the on the Twitter. We wish him well. We like we like ourselves from Joe. Yeah, right? Nice. All right. Stas, how you doing? You were in the week in the California, yeah? Yep. She went to California and her hair went more California while she was gone. She's lost some of her. It only takes one week, apparently, for Nastasia Lopez to lose her New York Edge and to turn back into a California person. You don't think so? You've already gotten most of your New York anger back, you know? Yeah, yeah. morning I did. Yeah. So you guys can't see this there at home, but I brought, and this has been in my fridge now for about 2 months. I have a, what can only be described as a lady lemon. You want to describe this thing, Nastasia? It looks like a labia. Wow, that was more graphic than I expected. And I, uh, what are we going to name this thing? Lululemon. It's the most graphic lemon I've ever seen in my entire life. I don't know. Maybe if people ask us, we could make a tweet out. again, it's getting a little it's getting a little old. It's got a little some blemishes. It didn't have this little herpe thing before, but, um, yeah, if anyone is interested in seeing Lululemon here, we
+
+[3:14] can uh, we can definitely tweet that out. I hear we have a call, call, or you are on the air. Hey how's it going? Going all right. What is your question? Okay, sorry. There's a little bit of a delay on my end. Yeah, we're still here. Yeah, question is that I have both my mother and sister claim that they have intolerance to MSG, and I had read Nathan Mirabel's book, and I'd always heard you speak on the
+
+[3:44] topic, and I don't know what, um, what experiment I should do to basically demonstrate that they don't have an intolerance to it. Well, okay, so, here's what you, depends on, are they game for a good test or no? Pardon me? Are they are they are they like good sports or no? Uh, yeah, they'd be open to it. Alright. Here's what you do. Go out to a supermarket, you know, like, you know, a GNC or someplace that sells
+
+[4:16] vitamins, Whole Foods sell these things, right? And or Amazon and buy empty gel caps or vegetarian gel caps if they don't eat the meat.
+
+[4:25] Uh, and then, um, get a predetermined amount of MSG, choose something reasonable. You know what I mean? Something that you might add to a recipe, then bulk it up to, you know, whatever it takes to fill the gel cap, then fill the other gel cap,
+
+[4:42] right? With the equivalent amount of sodium. and then other the same inert filler that you do. I have to do my math, but I think MSG has, I think, roughly half the sodium by weight. I got to look it up. It's something like that. as salt, right? So that way you're accounting for any actual difference in sodium intake that they're getting from the MSG in the pill that's
+
+[5:04] going to affect them. Then once you have the pills, you want to, you want to keep them separate, obviously, the ones that don't have MSD from the ones that do, you want to take like an air, like a, like a light mist of air or, you know,
+
+[5:17] something, you know, like one of those keyboard dusters, and you're going to want to blow any excess powder. You want to be sure to try to get any powder off of the outside of the capsules, you can, then blow it a little bit with one of those dusters to get to get rid of them. The pills need to look identical, right? And then what you do is you, um, feed them to them in random orders that only you can tell what's going on,
+
+[5:41] right? And you take, better yet, even is to, is to put them in pouches that are numbered, have a 3rd party
+
+[5:47] hand it to them so that there's, that, who doesn't know what's in each one. So there's absolutely no way that there can be any sort of visual cues as to what they're going. If they swallow these pills without breaking them, there is absolutely no way for them to taste the characteristic notes that are in MSG,
+
+[6:02] right? Then, if they have a reaction to, uh, if they have, and you have to run this trial many times, right? So it's like a coin flip. It's possible to flip a coin five, 6 times and get the right answer 5 times in a row. So if you do this over the course and, you know, you can do it either with meals or empty whatever, but you're going to want to do it the same way each time, right? And then if you do this course of study over a long enough period of time, you will notice that if there is a reaction, it is random and not correlated to whether or not there's MSG in the gel cap or not.
+
+[6:34] Almost all the studies that showed an actual effect with MSG. Um, showed uh, an effect when the MSG was added to things like uh, orange flavored beverages because whoever set up the experiments at the time thought that they would be able to mask the flavor of the MSG with
+
+[6:51] a with a very, you know, high flavored, I guess, tang equivalent or something like this.
+
+[6:55] You can't do that because remember MSG is not just a flavor, but like salt, it's a flavor potentiator.
+
+[7:02] So you can tell kind of, in other words, like sub-threshold, before you can say there's MSD in there, you can taste it, something's different, something that's going on. So you're gonna, you know, you want to make sure that they can't taste it at all. And I don't have it in my head, but the study that was the kind of gold standard study for
+
+[7:17] this showing that that, you know, that the reactivity to MSG was a load of nonsense. That's how they did it. They did it with gel caps. And so, you know, that's that's definitely what I would recommend. Now, just on the actual science of it, you know, aside from running an actual test, um,
+
+[7:33] all of this, like there's, there's several different arguments against MSG. One of them is that it has to do with something called excitotoxicity. So they're saying it's like it's like a neurotransmitter that can cause toxicity in the brain. This is a load. is a load of crap because you, I mean, just frankly, because the MSG that you take in doesn't cross a blood brain barrier at all.
+
+[7:56] In fact, your brain synthesizes its own MSG, uh, and then, uh, not
+
+[8:01] MSG, uh, glutamic acid, then converts it to glutamine to export back, back across a blood, uh, blood brain barrier. And so remember, it, like, glutamic acid is an entirely, you know, normally naturally occurring, in fact, necessary to life, without, you know, glutamic acid. You are hosed and your brain won't work properly. Aside from the fact that, you know, it's in, you know, protein in general, without it, you know, your
+
+[8:25] brain doesn't work right. So, to say that, you know, it is true that in certain situations, an excess level of it in your brain is indicative of things going wrong, but it has nothing to do with the stuff that you're taking
+
+[8:37] in, the studies that show damage from actually consuming large amounts of free glutanic acid were done on neonatal monkeys that whose blood brain barrier hadn't been set up properly or on rodents who don't work the same way that we do regarding this.
+
+[8:52] Now, another thing to note is that a lot of the studies where people say they've had reactions, they're taking just straight MSG without a lot of
+
+[8:59] food. Turns out that if you were to take a bunch of MSG and not, you know,
+
+[9:05] don't do this, but a bunch, yeah, you can spike your, the levels of, uh, you know, glutamic acid in your blood. Sure. You know what I mean? However, those spikes do not happen when MSG is consumed even in fairly decent quantities with food. So, you know, pretty much all of the things that, um, our, our, you know, possibly could be wrong with it are just a load of malarkey, and, you know, it turns out that if you look, there's a very good paper, and I don't have it at the tip of my tongue, but it's fairly easy to search for. There's a good, and I think it was put out in the 80s or 90s, history of the entire MSG kind of phenomenon and how it kind of started as a lark about like what's going wrong with these people who were eating in Chinese restaurants in, you know, you know, a long time
+
+[9:48] ago and then and then trying to hone in on what the component is, you know,
+
+[9:52] MSG. Whereas for me, my assumption is, and people have done studies on, because, you know, one of the things that, you know, people like me who's always said that MSG is fine. We said, no, it's really like anyone that has a reaction is probably the sodium, the same way that if you eat a boatload of,
+
+[10:06] you know, cheese and red wine, the next day you have a headache or, you know, you can, you know, because you've consumed like 8 tons of salt and
+
+[10:13] alcohol, so you're dehydrated. And so, uh, you know, that what I always say is that a lot of people, they order a bunch of incredibly, uh, you know, spiced and salty kind
+
+[10:23] of uh, Chinese food entrees and they don't eat any rice, which would be the equivalent of walking into a McDonald's and just pounding the bottle of ketchup and not eating the
+
+[10:31] hamburger. You know what I'm saying? And so it's not really a valid comparison. And plus a lot of people, if they think, I mean, I'm actually reading a bunch of interesting books now on the effect of the mind, not only on how you feel, how you feel from a kind of
+
+[10:47] mental, like emotional physical state, but actually like how your body responds. And so what people think about MSG can have radically important effects on how their body reacts to
+
+[10:59] things that contain it, especially if they can taste it, which is why going back to the gel
+
+[11:04] cap. So if you want to look at kind of differential ways that body absorbs nutrients or reacts or metabolism slows up
+
+[11:12] or speeds down, you can look at the work of Mattis, MAT, MATTES out of Purdue, and then he links to a bunch of the
+
+[11:21] old, like the classic studies of like Swedish women versus Thai women and how their bodies differentially absorb food that they like or don't like.
+
+[11:28] So there's a lot of interesting work like that out there, but it all adds up to don't worry about the MSG. Oh, thanks very much. Hey, no problem. Hope that helps. And tweet, tweet on into at cooking issues and let me know if you were able to convince them because I like to
+
+[11:41] hear. I like to hear both sides. I like to hear whether or not they were convinced of whether they remained unconvinced. Yeah, as soon as I formed the test and set it all out, I'll definitely tweet that. Super, thanks a lot. Thank you much. So should we tweet out the Lululemon or no? Are we allowed to call it Lululemon? I don't think so. No? Because we're gonna get, we'll get, that guy, that guy is already getting sued himself. He has more to worry about than whether we're calling and stuff, Lululemon, right? What did he do that was so terrible again? See-through yoga pants accidentally. How do you accidentally make a pair of see-through pants? It doesn't seem like you could do that by accident. Do you like, do you like the phrase on accident as opposed to the standard by accident? Yeah, yeah. All right, now, Evan, I got a question for you. We got a we got a response in, remember someone asked about what to do when they're in
+
+[12:34] Europe and we got this amazing answer in from Stan
+
+[12:40] B. But it's like so long that I don't know that I can read it. Can we put it up on the like with the podcast on if I give you the text or the response and I can just read clips from it? Yeah, I think we could do that. All right. So this is like, and in fact, I'm going to be in Paris for a couple days. I'm going to hit up some of this stuff too. Um, so I'll read some of it, right? In fact, I'll start with the end because I think Stan knew that I might not have time to read the whole thing. So he said at the end, if you do not read the whole thing on the show,
+
+[13:10] say, he knew. He knew. I'd appreciate a plug for Nicholas Bernardi. He is truly good and deserves recognition. So right there, we're going to say, you know, do that. But in the parts that I do read, here's what I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear your complaints about my French pronunciation, right? Because it's known that I suck. And it's also known that one of the reasons why I sucked at French in high school was because of the pronunciation and
+
+[13:36] how I'm just bad at it. Anyway, okay. Here are a few pointers for Paris and France, regardless of cost, however. So I hope, I don't know, regardless of cost, but yeah, so he starts right out with Taivon, right? Taivon and Leserre, both 2 Michelin stars, and they serve top notch 21st century classic French cuisine. if you want to understand what French food is supposed to be about. Taagon has one of the most extraordinary wine sellers in France. Claire Heizler at Lesser got elected pastry chef of the year by her peers in 2012. Uh, go check out the roast chicken at La Mille Louis, uh, the bistro faire of Le Comptoire, uh, how to pronounce this
+
+[14:10] stuff, Le Comptoire de Rélay, uh, and the egg mayonnaise of La Voltaire, the roasted duck of La Tour d'Argent. actually want to have that. You know, that's the that's the pressed duck. Thats the famous pressed duck. they number it. I have no idea whether it tastes good or not, but they give you like a little certificate with a number like you ate
+
+[14:25] press, duck, bubble butt. You know how they make the press duck? Yeah, we did it together. I can't remember whether you were with us when we did that. Yeah, but I would like to have the official I wonder how far in advance you have to sign up for that. We should do it now. Do you think Dax would like that? Dax is going to Paris with me. Dax will probably like that. The squishing of the bones and like the stuff coming out. Yeah, check it out. I'm sure it's going to be extremely expensive. Anyway, uh, most dishes, uh, oh, but apparently also La Tour d'Ajan has one of the best uh, views of Paris. Most dishes at Le Basque, lots of by the glass wines, at
+
+[14:54] Timon, et cetera, et cetera. And then he's calling out Lyon to go to Boccuza's restaurant. And I'm going to put most of this stuff on just because it's like, you know, Donnier, go to
+
+[15:03] Gagnier, in Paris. I'm going to go to the one he actually wants me to get out. He also says that quite a few Japanese chefs have opened excellent French based Japanese, influenced restaurants in Paris. Passage 53, Kai Hiramatsu, Stella Marie, a few others. Uh, and then there's a huge long list of awesome uh, suites uh, recommendations. So apparently Stan's real heart here is in the suites. And I'll add the one thing you wanted me to say. I'll shamelessly plug a recommendation for a personal favorite. Do book a pastry class at Nicholas Bernardez. Bernardet is a mayor over here de France, a former teacher at the Cordon Bleu, and his Saturday afternoon classes are the best value for money pastry teachings I could find. They tell me they speak English, e.g. they have foreign students doing internships and they all manage by speaking English. Not sure how it worked for a class though. They are super nice, so just ask. Classes at Ninochasu are more expensive, not as good humored, not taught by an MLF, but have the brand
+
+[15:55] name and English can be guaranteed. Um, right? And for shopping. Uh, there's a uh, a bookstore in Paris called uh, Libre Gourmand, which I don't know about, but I wonder whether they have English books. My French sucks so hard. Um, G, the 2 will stock almost all the ingredients you could think of. And Israel next to the Paris town hall is a bizarre of exotic food products. I recommend, I recommended Bartolomeo as a cheese shop. He recommends Marie Catrum, which I've actually been to, which is an amazing place. Uh, and then et cetera, et cetera. So we're going to put that entire recommendation list on L website, right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I'm still thinking about the Lady Lemon. Uh, Dave Hammer and Jack. No Jack today, though. So I'm going to say Dave Hammer and Evan, because Jack, Jack is like so sad maybe from Jolie and he just won't stop by the studio. don't know. Love your show, learn so much, and I'm almost caught up after tearing through the archives in the past few months. I have a preserving question. I'm trying to replicate this Bulgarian pumpkin preserve that I had once when visiting friends in the Peace Corps in Bulgaria. This woman made a preserve that kept the shape that the slices of pumpkin
+
+[16:58] have, but were soft and getting when you bite into them. They were preserved in sugar syrup. When I asked her how she did this, she said she had cured them in line, pickling lime. At the time, I had no idea what she meant by this, but from listening to your show, I've gathered that she used pickling lime or some variation of that product. I bought some pickling lime on Amazon and attempted it. The flavor was good, but the texture of mine was too crunchy. I soaked the pumpkin overnight in a fairly concentrated solution of lime. Two questions. One, if I shorten the soak time and dilute the solution. Do you think it will get me closer to the desired texture? And two, how long will this last? Even though I'm storing it in the fridge, I'm worried about being hazardous because of the low pH? I'm assuming you mean the high pH? I mean, it's not acid enough is what I'm assuming you're saying. My last batch seems to last for over a month without problems, but am I playing with fire? Would adding citric acid to it changed the flavor too much? Thanks and keep up the good work. Joe ankleich. Now, um, so a couple of things here. On the line, what you want to do, 1st of all, for those of you that don't know, or, you know, I don't know,
+
+[17:58] pickling lime, is calcium hydroxide, and you can't really use like a lower, you know, lower concentration of it, because pickling lime, calcium hydroxide is not very soluble in water at all.
+
+[18:12] In fact, when you buy a lime paste, a Thai style, you buy this like lime paste, you just add it to water, you shake it, and you let all
+
+[18:19] the stuff settle out, and what you're left with is a saturated lime solution, which is typically what you use.
+
+[18:24] Now, when you are doing pickles, here's what's happening. So, when you're doing, um, nixtimalization with this stuff, you're not only using, you're using the calcium, you're using the fact that it's basic,
+
+[18:37] right? That it's alkaline, has a high pH, uh, and that's helping uh, to mess with the,
+
+[18:43] uh, this, the, you know, the outside of the corn and allowing it to grind easier and a lot of other awesome
+
+[18:49] effects. Just, you know, go on the blog, it's still there and look up mixtamilization. When you're using it for firming things, you're not really using the
+
+[18:57] basicity so much. I mean, you are in one sense because if you're going to cook something, like if you're going to cook the pumpkin after you've done
+
+[19:05] it. The, uh, the basic, uh, the alkaline uh, will will help it to stay, uh, uh, that's the exact opposite, I guess. That's exact opposite. Erase the last, just ignore the last couple of sentences, I said. But what you're looking for when you're cooking for firming things is the is you're looking for the calcium, right? So when you the calcium in the calcium hydroxide will help cross-link the pectins and create a firmer thing. And so that's how, you know, that's how like a lot of the chefs do these kind of what they say, ossified vegetables, or, you know, we used to do all the time at the French culinary bananas that were soaked in pickling lime and calcium
+
+[19:47] hydroxide, and they stay firm. And so you can do bananas and you can sit there and you can cook them and they don't break. You could like, you could brutalize them and they don't break as opposed to normal bananas when you, you know, making the foster or
+
+[19:59] something, they fall apart. Now here's the issue. This is pickling limes, you know, classically used in Western preps for pickles and things like cucumbers, uh, because it firms up the cucumbers and, uh, you know, you should still also, by the way, when you're doing, uh, you know, cucumbers cut off the blossom
+
+[20:13] and in case there's, you know, the enzymes in there can cause softening. But anyway. So, uh, pickling lime uh, causes uh, the the calciumator causes it to firm up. Now, you can use other things like you can use, you can use calcium chloride and stuff like that as well, but pickling lime classic.
+
+[20:29] Now, what you want to do, though, is soak it in water. Anytime you do a pickle, uh, and you firm the pickle with uh, lime. You 1st soak it in the lime solution. And I don't think you need to soak it as long as you're soaking it, frankly. You have to soak it in water because you want to remove all the excess
+
+[20:47] calcium hydroxide from the thing. You don't want to stay in there for a number of reasons. One, it's going to keep getting harder. The texture's going to change. It going to get weird. I've had that happen. I soak cucumbers in it overnight once, cut cucumbers in it overnight. They were gross, gross. Also, because it's alkaline, you're going to be shifting. If you're making a pickle with vinegar, you can possibly shift the pH into a region that's unsafe. Um, and, you know, because it's neutralizing some of the effect of the acidity, right? So what they do, typically, is they'll soak the pickles in pure, they'll rinse them, then they'll soak them in pure water for a couple of hours, and then they'll do that
+
+[21:23] soak like once, twice, 3 times sometimes to make sure that they've leached out all the excess calcium. And then you can go by, uh, go do your normal pickle recipe and you will have, um, you will have, you know, kept that, um, you will have kept it, uh, you know,
+
+[21:40] firm without going too firm and being on it. Another thing people do is they do sometimes a light heat process on it to kill bacteria into denature enzymes that might cause softening.
+
+[21:51] And the pickle people, like, you know, recommend something in the range of 180 Fahrenheit. I don't know that's for cucumbers. Uh, I don't know, uh, and they keep it there for about like uh, like, 30 minutes something. I don't know what that's going to do on pumpkin, whether pumpkin can withstand those kind of
+
+[22:07] temperature because that's very close to the temperatures where the pectin starts breaking
+
+[22:11] down up at like 185, something like that. But maybe a little lime in combination with that will work for you now that as to the other side, what's going to grow in it? Uh, you know, I need to see the recipe. I, you know, I would be slightly nervous about, um, about keeping the stuff in there without it having, uh, like some acidity, uh, to keep it low enough
+
+[22:35] for, for botulism to, to not grow, because there's, there's 2 things you got to worry about, right? It's like, is botulism going to grow in the actual liquid of the pickling thing. Now, for instance, like if you have a very high sugar content, the water activity is going to be extremely low, if the water activity is extremely low, then no
+
+[22:52] botulism can grow is not a problem. If somehow the pumpkin has enough syrup suffused into it, such that its water activity is low enough, then no botros will grow in it. However, there are many situations where the pickling liquid itself does not support the growth of
+
+[23:07] pathogens like botulism, but the inside of the product does. So there was a case where someone made eggs, pickled eggs in 1997, I think, I looked it up on the CDC website, and they did pickled eggs, and the solution itself, didn't support the growth of botulism,
+
+[23:27] but, I mean, I don't think it did, but the inside of the egg yolk was not at a point where it was preventing botulism growth. And they had done the classic thing where you prick it with a toothpick to get the stuff to go in, but they hadn't gotten enough penetration of the
+
+[23:42] vinegar, apparently, where it wasn't strong enough, typical beet, pickled egg. And there was a boatload of botulism, toxin on the inside of the egg yolk, and it didn't kill the guy, though. Anyway, so if you want, send us the actual recipe and I could try to see whether it's safe or I could pass it off to a food safety expert and see whether they know where the actual recipe that you have is
+
+[24:01] safe. We see the procedures, but that's how you use the pickling line. What do you think? Good? Yeah, true. Also, do you really want citric acid as the flavor? I mean, it depends on the pickle. Like most pick, I don't think of most pickles as having kind of a citric flavor.
+
+[24:15] I associate them either with lactic flavor on a natural fermentation, like
+
+[24:18] lactic acid bacteria, or with a vinegar. I haven't had any pickles that are done solely with uh, citric acid. I guess like preserved lemons, I guess you can kind of think of as a fermentation is done in a salt solution, which citric acid is the preventative. I don't know, interesting. Um, Hey, Bushwick Crew. I have a cocktail issue that I was hoping you could help me with. This is from Brandon Johnson and Charlotte, North Carolina. What is the general shelf life of clarified lime juice? I'm trying to pre-batch gin and tonics for my wedding in corny kegs, and I'm wondering how long in advance I can make it without compromising the quality.
+
+[24:53] Well, ascorbic acid helped me. I was also considering rapid infusing the gin with lime zest to replace the clarified juice, but that doesn't seem ideal. Any other tips or warnings on pre-batch kegging, gin and tonics would be much appreciated. Brandon Johnson, Charlotte, North Carolina. All right, listen. Listen, listen. Uh, lime juice doesn't last. Lime juice, it does not last. It lasts not at all. Like one day. Uh, what, let me, let me give you, 1st of all, congratulations on the wedding. And as a married man myself. Let me say this. Your spouse to be is not going to be overly psyched if you're clarifying a bunch of lime juice the day before your wedding,
+
+[25:33] right? Because honestly, you could probably use yesterday's Clary Lime today, right? But like, they're not going to be happy. I know this because the day before my wedding. I was welding the cake stand that we use for the cake the day before the wedding and like I was all covered in filth and this is not, this is not ideal. You know what I mean? Uh, another way to go, and now it's start testing now. I don't know how long you have is, you know, lime juice goes through kind
+
+[26:00] of, instead of doing a straight old school gin and tonic with fresh lime flavor, you might want to consider doing kind of a cordial. And I think Tony Caneliaro in his book has his line cordial recipe. And so if you want it, then it's going to be like a much better version of like Rose's lime juice. But that stuff has already gone through an aging procedure. And so it is what it is. It's not the taste of fresh lime, but it is a good taste of lime, right? And you might find that you like it. And there's also, um, some tonic recipes out there, most notably the, um, the kind of, uh, you know, Morgenthaler
+
+[26:34] style Portland style, uh, tonics, uh, that have a kind of a cordially flavor in them if you if you follow their syrup recipes. And you go that way. I would not recommend, however, using, uh, unless you have like a good centrifuge thing, using the bark, because that is gonna foam. Uh, when I made uh, when I made uh, quinine syrup using actual
+
+[26:55] quinchona bar, uh, they, there was a lot more bubble holding capacity and a simple syrup than there was when I used quinine sulfate USP as
+
+[27:03] the uh, base for the tonic, right? And if you're going to keg these things and pump them out, you're going to have some serious, serious foaming problems, right? And I think I said this before, it's like, you know, like most times when people are kegging, kegging cocktails and putting them out, they lose a bunch of carbonation for
+
+[27:21] a variety of reasons. But before I get on that, let's finish off on the, I'll get on that in a sec. Before we do that, let's get back on the line for a second. So it seems to me, here are your choices. One, you use something that you have someone else clarify the lime juice for
+
+[27:34] you the day of like a buddy, right? Then you have the cocktail on the keg, and it has everything but the lime juice, and then someone just pours a little bit of clarified lime juice in at the very end.
+
+[27:46] This is how we do it at the bar, by the way. We don't do it in kegs, obviously, we do it in bottles, but that's how the bar handles it. So the gin and tonic, without the lime, lasts almost indefinitely, right? If it's kept properly. It's carbonated, and nothing in it breaks down. The sugar is fine. The, you know, quinine's fine, the gin is fine, the water's fine, and
+
+[28:04] just rides. Um, then, um, you just add a little clarity at the end. And if you have someone that's willing to make it for you like the day of, then, you know, that's good and it doesn't take that much lime, especially if you're on the drier side,
+
+[28:16] right? Um, but then you have to trust your catering people to like pour it in properly, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[28:22] But it's one way to go. Another way to go is to do the cordial thing, like I said, like construct a tonic recipe that has more of a lime cordial flavor, instead of a fresh lime flavor, and then just put a wedge of lime with the actual drink, such that people can squeeze fresh lime into the cordial
+
+[28:39] flavor and get that brightness that you get from fresh lime. That's a very good solution. By the way, the lime thing, you know how like limes, like, you know how like limes are ridiculously expensive now. Hopefully your wedding is after May. I'm being told that the lime market's gonna kind of untighten a little bit after May when the next kind of crop comes in. You know, line, I was reading that line, a tractor trailer of limes is now over $100,000 like in Mexico, worth over $100,000 in Mexico. So that's why like lime trucks or, you know, people are like, you know, have armed escorts with their lime trucks
+
+[29:09] now. Freaky. Anyway, and the lines were getting now just so crappy, so crappy. So crappy. Anyway, um, where was I? So yeah, so hopefully you're getting married after the lime crunch is over. So then those are the 1st 2 choices. The last choice, and now I know you're not going to like this probably, but hear me out, is to make lime acid, right? And lime acid. So lime juice is roughly, this gives you just a, like a, you know, rough gauge. Lime juice is roughly 6% acidity. Of that 6% acidity. It is roughly 4%, so 4 grams out of every 100 grams of it are citric
+
+[29:52] acid and 2 grams of it are malic acid, right? Citric and malic. Like, that's it. Now that makes kind of a lime soda acidity. It's nice, and you, and some people don't add the malic, but they're kind of
+
+[30:05] doofwods because the thing about malic acid, aside from the fact that it tastes different with citric acid, and if you don't have the malic, it doesn't taste like lime. Is it malic acid has a different attack and decay profile from citric acid? So the acidity from citric acid is present very quickly and fades fairly quickly. And the acidity from malic acid hits a little bit later and lingers longer. So to really get anything like the taste of lime, a profile of lime
+
+[30:29] and an acid, you need that blend, 2 part citric to one part. Malik, 6% solution pours just like lime juice. It's a little more acidic, but it's in that range. It pours similar to lime juice. Now, if you really want this sucker to taste authentic without actually having any lime in it. You need to buy. And it's not expensive, but, you know, a lifetime supply doesn't cost that much because you only need a tiny, tiny
+
+[30:50] bit is succinic acid. Uh, SU, CC. I can't spell out loud, succinic acid, and succinic acid tasted on its own tastes like you like bit into your tongue, bloody, nasty, bitter, metallic, horrible. But a couple of grains. It's a tiny bit, like just minute minute amount of succinic acid into this acid blend. And I've done these taste tests time and time again, minute amounts of
+
+[31:15] that added to it will increase the authenticity of a straight acid blend in terms of its lime
+
+[31:21] flavor, like inordinately. And again, those acids, which except for the succinic acid, which you have to source at a chemical supply house, like spectrum, make sure you get USP, which is, you know, the grade that is, you know, the pharmaceutical grade stuff.
+
+[31:33] Um, you know, with the exception of that, you can get the rest of stuff at a homebrew shop. And then that, again, can be supplemented with a lime wedge, and it'll last forever. Ascorbic acid is not going to help. I think you asked about this. I have to remember back. It's not going to help keep the lime juice from lasting for longer. So I either say, have a buddy make it go fresh. Go cordial with a lime wedge, as a garnish, or do the acids and let it ride. When you're going to keg, however, here's the key with kegging. Um, Cocktails foam a lot more than beer and a lot more than soda. Why? First of all, alcohol, alcoholic products foam a lot more than non-alcoholic products do because alcohol lowers the surface tension and increases the viscosity of the liquids, which causes boatloads of
+
+[32:19] foaming. What you want to do. So that's a problem. And gin and tonics are typically higher in alcohol and have more carbonation in them than something like a beer. So a beer, right? So like a setup that will cause, you know, a minor amount of foaming on a beer will cause a huge amount of foaming on a cocktail because the cocktail has more CO2 in
+
+[32:40] it and a cocktail has more alcohol in it.
+
+[32:44] So you're shafted 2 times right there. Uh, so foaming is really going to be an issue. You going to need to get your cocktail as cold as is humanly possible. Right? And you're going to want to make sure that it's completely and utterly clear that there's nothing in it that's going to cause any sort of foaming at all, which is why I don't recommend
+
+[33:02] using, uh, like actual Kinchona bark in this situation because I think it's going to cause a lot of foaming on you. When you are dispensing out of the corny keg, I'm assuming you have a cold plate
+
+[33:12] and ice, you're going to want to go through 2 separate circuits of the cold plate. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, cold plate is a length of stainless steel tube that is cast into a block of aluminum that's kept in ice.
+
+[33:24] And that's how things are chilled down at bars. You go from a, like a room temperature, uh, like just sticking the keg in ice water is not going to be good enough. But you stick the keg in, you know, you pass it through this aluminum tube. and you can get it down. The problem is cold plate circuits aren't long enough to get the product as cold. They don't have as big a Delta C temperature drop as you want. So you, what you want to do, delve tea rather. What you want to do is put it through 2 circuits. That also gives you more room because remember, cocktails are going to be at a higher pressure than beer is because they have more CO2 in them,
+
+[33:57] right? And so because of that, they need a longer space with more drag to slow down as they come out so that you're not spraying out of the end of your gun. So 2 circuits, it's going to give you a longer line, which is going to give you colder, and it's also going to give you kind of less foaming on the outside. You also need to get something better than a picnic tap. You need to get a pre-mix valve, which is ideal or the what's called a beer gun valve from CM Becker that's just called a squeeze valve. Those are obtainable, not as good as an actual pre-mix valve. But those 2 things together will help. And if you salt your ice, you want to measure the temperature, don't get it so cold that you freeze out the stuff, but you can get it like below 0 by salting your ice and measuring the temperature at the cold plate and getting it
+
+[34:40] right. But make sure you get a buddy to do that because do not be measuring the temperature of your cold plate on your
+
+[34:46] wedding. Should we take a break? Sure. Let's take a commercial break right back with... It's not really a commercial break though.
+
+[35:43] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the
+
+[35:47] HeritageRadioNetwork.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restorate
+
+[35:57] terms, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay, and David Chang among their honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. And oh, welcome back. Okay, so we have a question in. You scroll down to it. Uh, deer cooking issues posse. Just got back from Tokyo and had some great food. I want go back to Tokyo. Don't you? Sure. You sure? Where would you, what, if you were going to go back to one of the places we had gone to, where have we been? Um, I guess the only one I've been to with you is Tokyo. No, we went to London. We went to... I paid for London. Did not? We went on that event. Remember? Oh, the other one, yeah. Um, So I guess it's just London or Tokyo. Or like, you know, a lot of place New Orleans. Speaking of which, going up to Williams to do a talk tomorrow, right? Yes, doing a talk tomorrow and on Thursday, uh, talking to the cooking and science class up there. I'm trying to figure out what we're going to do, but if you happen to be in the area of the Williams College, we will be there talking, doing stuff, cooking stuff, doing things, cooking
+
+[37:15] issues. Just got back from Tokyo, had some great food. Went to the Skegee fish market on the day they were closed. Oh, that sucks, huh? Takuji was, uh, look, Matt. even because Matt Ronan. I hate to. I hate to do this to you, but man, Tsukiji is awesome. Awesome. Mark Ladner was having a good time with CKG, too. A lot of Styrofoam though. Amazing amount of Styrofoam. Even you like, you enjoyed Tskegee, right, son? Yeah. Crazy fish. Amazing market. just amazing. When does Kichi fish market on the day they were closed? Also went to an Edo-style sushi bar that has been in business for 147 years and is still in the same family, effing amazing. Anyway, I love me some ramen and have made several attempts to make it from scratch. I am... I am unable to get the great texture you get with the real stuff. And I wonder if you had any suggestions of good ramen cookbooks and or websites. When I searched the webs, I found a bunch of books about uses for instant ramen, but I'm looking for the real deal. I have Chang's book, and while this broth is great, it's noodles leave something to be desired, no disrespect to the man. I would also like to explore more styles of broth, Tokyo, Hokkaido. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matt. Okay. Matt, 1st of all, I don't know why I didn't do this. I went on the internet. I didn't go get my book to see what noodle recipes in the book, but they've done a lot of work since the
+
+[38:32] book on console, right? So the trick with with those kind of ramen noodles, which, you know, the good ones are a subset of alkaline
+
+[38:43] noodles, is consway. Conseway is, you know, the alkaline, the alkaline salt mix that you can get, or you could use other alkaline things as well to get the same kind of effect. So, you know, McGee wrote an article in the New York Times, uh, back when he was still doing the curious cook column, you know, a couple years back on taking baking soda, which is not strong
+
+[39:04] enough that sodium bicarbonate, which is not strong enough to really make a kind of good, uh, alkaline kind of conseway thing. And so some of the recipes on the lines use the baking soda, which is kind of, you know, not useful. Or they make like an egg pasta, which is also not the same. Uh, and uh, he takes and makes uh, uh, bakes the bicarbonate in an oven. He has specs for it. I forget what they are, thereby turning it into sodium carbonate, which is a relatively much more basic and can be used to make a
+
+[39:35] console, or to use make an apple and noodle. So now, what happens when you're adding the base to the noodle,
+
+[39:43] you know, the Auckland substance to the to the flour, is that it's going to turn yellow and the turning yellow isn't kind of what you care about, although, you know, for people that eat
+
+[39:54] yellow, alkaline noodles. And then that's what they're called, Y and yellow alcohol noodles, and there's a bunch of papers on the internet's about it, you know, in scholarly literature. The yellow is an indication of quality, but the yellow isn't really what's the most important thing.
+
+[40:08] The most important thing about it is the textual changes because switching the pH of the dough radically affects the way the gluten works in it.
+
+[40:19] right? So by shifting the pH into the more alkaline range. You're making the gluten much more elastic. And that's really what you're looking for in the ramen, right? You need to keep that gluten nice and elastic and bouncy because you're going to be serving the noodle in a hot broth and so it can get overcooked almost instantly, right? I mean, that's what everyone says. You have to slurp up those noodles as fast as you can, because otherwise the
+
+[40:45] noodle's going to go mushy on you, and you want it bouncy and springy. So the conway is going to be the thing. So I don't know if that's the problem you were having is, you know, the lack of the conway. Things like egg aren't going to help you out without as much. I think you have to use the alkaline noodle. Any good, uh, like Chinese grocery will
+
+[41:02] have, uh, conseway. It's labeled a bunch of different things, but you can see it. It's, you know, it's got the, it comes as a water already made. Uh, and, you know, uh, I think Kenji Lopez post a, because, you know, he doesn't post a recipe because he says that all of his ramen attempts have sucked, making ramen
+
+[41:17] noodles. Like he goes a lot into the broths and stuff, but he says that the noodles that he's made, he doesn't like them.
+
+[41:23] Anyway, I don't have any good information because I've never made the ramen style ones myself on the actual technique of making the noodles. So it's not like other noodles styles that I've worked on, like, you know, the pulled noodles that you, that, you know, or the silva cutting, which I have worked on. I could talk more about. So I don't really know much about the physical production of the noodles, but in my kind of wrong opinion, I mean, I think the
+
+[41:52] recipe, the recipe is going to be much more important. Let's like, for instance, I'm sober, right? Like good cutting is amazing, but the actual hard part isn't, I mean, the cutting is hard to get it right and to make it
+
+[42:03] nice, but really the important part of getting sober right is getting the moisture, getting the dough texture right by manipulating the
+
+[42:11] dough, such that the moisture and the texture come together at the same time to create that kind of perfect.
+
+[42:17] Soba dough. So then even if you're a complete dillweed, and your knife skills suck and your noodles are ugly and they don't aren't the right shape, they will still be delicious because you've gotten the dough right.
+
+[42:31] So the actual fabrication of it isn't necessarily as important as getting the texture of the
+
+[42:36] dough right. But since I haven't made a lot of ramen myself, I can't really help you there, just other than to say, that you're going to want to go into, uh,
+
+[42:43] conway, into yellow alkaline noodles, and you can look that up, and I'm sure you'll be able to find lots of recipes that, uh, tell you how to use it. I will say this other thing. Everyone hates on the fried noodles, but I like I'm not saying they're the same. They're not authentic, whatever, but I actually happen to like noodles that have
+
+[42:59] been like defriedrated or whatever they call it. Do you like those things? Styles, you know the noodles, like instant noodles. You like them or no? I think I like them. I mean, they're not the same. I'm not saying that they're they're as good or anything like that, but I think they have their place and everyone hates on them all the
+
+[43:13] time all the time. I'm gonna work on... I don't have any time right now, but when I get a minute's time. I'm going to work on some high-end, like, fried dehydrated noodles, like not like BS, like, fried dehydrated noodles that you get in the ramen packets,
+
+[43:28] but, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on, I guarantee you there's a really good application for it. I'll be back on that at some point. Uh, okay. Um, I would also like to explore. Oh, also, I would also like to explore more styles of broth, Tokyo Hokkaido. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Kenji Lopez on the Sirius Eats has like 18 or 19 posts on different ramen styles and like a very lengthy kind of pork, you know, uh, uh, one, you know, from the south, uh,
+
+[44:02] listening and also some links to some other websites that are specifically about ramen and different styles. So rather than kind of list that stuff out now, I would just go to the serious eats and look up Kenji's posts on ramen. Because the other good thing about the post that Kenji's doing on the on the thing is that, um, you know, kind of he kind of lays out what all his assumptions are and kind of what he likes and what he doesn't
+
+[44:24] like. And so, you know, you can kind of tell whether, you know, whether or not you agree or disagree, which is always a good thing to do in recipes. If people let you know ahead of time, kind of what your predilections are,
+
+[44:35] like I tell you what I think a good French fry is, then you know which one of my instructions are good or bad based on what I'm aiming at,
+
+[44:41] right? Because there's no, there's no perfect ramen. There's no perfect anything. There is what I am shooting for or what you want to have and then how good are you at achieving that goal, right? That's really all there is. anyway. Hopefully, that helps. So a little while ago. Uh, a couple weeks ago, I asked for people to write in uh, their worst kind of
+
+[45:04] Yelp, uh, their Yelp situations. And I got a lot of people who were hating on the, on the, on the Yelp. Um, but here's what, here's how it happened. I was looking up a restaurant that, you know, some friends of mine had. And this is the, this is the thing that pissed me off. And here's the particular thing that pisses me off. By the way, I think Yelp is extremely useful, right? I think like, don't worry, South is where I'm going to go. I'm going to talk like 2 minutes on it. So like, like, I think Yelp is extremely, uh, kind of useful, uh, for certain things and
+
+[45:38] helpful, and, you know, uh, but here's the kind of thing that that, that I wish that there was some sort of like, uh, something for people that owned restaurants where they could go
+
+[45:48] and and bitch out specific Yelp users. Listen to this Yelp review from February of this year. of a restaurant. The burger was phenomenal. Right? But the ambiance and the staff are just too hipster for my flavor.
+
+[46:05] Get this. Staff was friendly and was willing to go above and beyond to accommodate my friend's kosher dietary limitations. I will give this place another try for the bar scene and will definitely come back for the burger and possibly try some of the other dishes. All right. So burger phenomenal. Staff was friendly and willing to go above and beyond to accommodate the friend's dietary imitations. But 2 hipster. So I forget, it was either 2 like 2 or 3 stars. It's ridiculous. This is what is wrong with the world. Like some moron can go and admit that this restaurant
+
+[46:41] was like bending over backwards to help them out and then they knock them on something like
+
+[46:45] that. Um, So, again, a lot of people, like, like I said, straight up hating on the Yelp. In fact, there's someone sent me a website that was like, what was it? It's called spelled out fuyelper.tumblr.com. I don't think they update that anymore. Uh, but a bunch of people sent me in really, really crappy,
+
+[47:08] uh, really, really crappy Yelp reviews. But I think, you know, people who are in the business. Like, we need to get over the complete hatred of the
+
+[47:16] Yelp because it, you know, it's important for the customers to have some sort of venue to go do this
+
+[47:23] thing, there's got to be some better way for us to not let
+
+[47:27] it, like, because, you know, you read a bad Yelp about your place and it kind of rips your heart out. I think people don't really understand the Yelp these Yelpers who are kind of sitting around in their chonies and typing things. I don't really think that they understand that they are, uh, like kind of hurting real people. First of all, that they're actually like hurting businesses and that they're hurting real live people. So I'm going to think more on this and see whether I can come up with an actual decent thesis on the Yelp that
+
+[47:53] makes any sense. But I welcome more kind of feedback on the Twitter on Yelp, and we'll talk more about it next week on cooking issues.
+
+[48:06] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[48:17] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:36] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hello, do it yourself, or? Ever thought about gardening? If you can build that window box? You can build a raised vent in your backyard. Bonnie, veggie and herb plants in raised beds make a fast weekend project with a big payback.
+
+[0:15] Fresh, grow 'em yourself tomatoes and peppers, kale, basil, and thyme, and so much more. Bonny plants are healthy and strong, and help jumpstart your garden. So get growing. Plans and how tos at bonnyplants.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:46] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Daveon. Your host of cooking issues coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined, as usual, by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Yeah. Got Jack in the booth today. Good old-fashioned, good old-fashioned cooking issues. Last week my tires blew out in my car. For real? Yeah, that's actually why I wasn't here. For real, your tire is blue. For real? Like while you were driving? Yeah, it was kind of flat, 2 of them, and I was like, let me drive to the gas station and fill them up, and then, you know... Was it like, was it like, koplow, or was
+
+[1:25] it like... Yeah. Were you able to keep control of the car? Yeah, I made it into a repair shop and got it replaced. Yeah, I had a little bit of a car corporal you today. My old school, like you don't think of this happening anymore with your car, but battery dead. Battery dead. Is that why you're late? dead. Yeah. I was going to work on the puffing gun, which we'll talk about in a minute, but the battery was completely Muerto.
+
+[1:49] And so I haven't had to have a jump since I was
+
+[1:53] in like high school, you know? Uh, but yeah, it works. turns out I still know how to jump start a car. Also joined in the studio today. Emma Boast. Emma Boast from the museum. Have a food and drink. Hey, what's what's your title there at the museum? I am the program director, so I work with Peter, who's the executive director of
+
+[2:13] MoFed and a whole slew of amazing volunteers. Yeah? Nice. So Emma's here today. Actually, I forced her to come on because I'm a little bit late
+
+[2:24] because what we're doing this morning, as some of you might know, last summer, we got a kick, we
+
+[2:31] had did a Kickstarter and we paid for this puffing gun. Now, puffing gun is an explosive puffing device that was used to make breakfast cereals, one of the
+
+[2:42] big, I like to call it the big 3 of the initial breakfast cereals, right?
+
+[2:46] So your initial big 3 were your flaking rollers, right? Three, right? No, two? Well, I guess you had your your crumbled, your granula kind of granola-esque cereals. Right, that's the... That's the or cereal. Right? Ore cereal. And by the way, remember, started by kind of religious health zealots. That's a fair term. Zealots? Yeah. So it meant to kind of taste bad and be dry and just kind of, you know, one of the original cereals names was
+
+[3:18] Pablum, Pablum. I've got a call. Oh, color. Well, we'll get back to the puffing in a minute. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, David and Crew. How y'all doing? All right. Very well. Cool. 2 part questions. Um, one of them was, I had recently seen a video that Jose Andres had done, and he had made a mimosa with Clementine air, he said, and he did it
+
+[3:42] with um, soy lectin. Yeah, he loves that stuff. Yeah, and uh, I tried to do it at home, and I just modified it by doing it with blood orange. Right. But since we didn't have any fresh blood oranges, I used, uh, just regular, um, like it was, it was already pastures. I got it from Whole Foods, but it was blood orange juice, and for some reason, I just couldn't make, uh, the air to someone that he does, it
+
+[4:07] ended up being real goopy. Yeah. What was he? What was he using? Well, give me his whole technique, because I haven't seen a video. Yeah, it was, uh, he was making cava, and then he used fresh
+
+[4:17] squeezed, uh, clementine juice, and I don't know. That's why, because one of the effects that mine didn't work at all. Yeah, I mean, what was it? What was the procedure? Sorry, he was making mimosas. No, what was the procedure with the soy lesson? So he used the immersion, not the emerging circuit. Stega stick blender? Yes, the stick blender. Right. And, uh, he just put like about a spoonful or so
+
+[4:40] of uh, soy like inside of the uh, Clementine juice and just made like an air, like an air out of the
+
+[4:47] Clementine juice. Okay, so put that on top. And what is, and he was using presumably the powdered stuff, right? Because there's also the granular stuff and there's the powder stuff. powder stuff much better. Hopefully you had the powder stuff. Uh, okay, so you can add almost any kind of, uh, kind of, uh, you know, he had a no extra whipping agent, right? Just the, uh, he had a just the soy lesson for the for the bubbling effect, right? No whipping agent. All right. Yeah, yeah, just that. And you've had luck using this stick blender technique in the past or do you need some pointers on the stick blender technique in general? I mean, probably I need techniques altogether because I definitely just tried it bad.
+
+[5:27] Like, I just tried to attempt it on a brunch and it was, it was not a failure just off of booking. It didn't look as hard. as it wasn't clearly it was. Right, okay, so... There's a trick. I don't know if there's the type of soy licks in that I got. Maybe it wasn't the same quality, I don't know, but... It's possible. I'm not a huge fan. I'm not, I've never like been like a soy, uh, less thin guy, but what you should do is practice on something that foams
+
+[5:52] naturally. Like, so I'm wondering if you've used this kind of technique in the past, like carrot juice is a natural
+
+[5:57] foamer. You don't need to do anything to it at all. Just use carrot juice, you know, juice carrots and do it. But the trick with uh, with any of those kind of, uh, foam ups, uh, with a stick blender, is you want to uh, have
+
+[6:10] not like, you, you, you, you know, a small quantity in the bottom of a container, stick the stick blender in it, and then you go on a, and here's the key that I don't know whether they tell you about in the video or not, but you need to turn the entire thing at an angle such that a portion of the stick blender's blades come out of the liquid on every revolution. And then when you're
+
+[6:33] holding at that angle, you turn it on high, and as it flips up and out of the thing. It's gonna be whipping air and creating a froth that will rise above the surface.
+
+[6:42] So that's why when they're doing that technique, you'll see them all the time, and it's not just because they want to look jaunty. They need to have that that container. I usually do it in quartz or whatever on an angle. Usually pretty steep, like 45 or better so that the blades can whip in and out. But you did that or no? No, definitely didn't do that. I just tell it directly in there. almost like a reverse blender as it usually is, you know, so I definitely didn't get any air into it. Right. So the trick with any of those foam things is he's adding a little bit of the soil less than to stabilize the bubbles a little bit. You're praying that there's a kind of enough solids in the in the in the juice to kind of hold those bubbles once they're formed with with that. And then you just tilt it at an angle, you give it a try. Carot juice is a good one to do it with, tills it in an angle, and voo, voo, voo, and you hold
+
+[7:34] it, and it'll, it'll make like a froth on the top, and then you pull out the stick blender, and I'm sure you saw this part on the thing, is he, then they take a spoon usually, and they harvest the stuff off the top of the liquid, and then you can do that a
+
+[7:45] bunch because there's extra stuff in there before it's really depleted of the surface act, the stuff needed to make a foam. So they'll sit there and they'll just re-hit it almost to order and then harvest each time it'll settle down after a while and then you can just hit it again. But if you look if you look at the video, I'm pretty sure you'll see him holding that thing at an
+
+[8:03] angle. Okay. Yeah, I'll definitely check that out. I'm kind of surprised, though, that they didn't, uh, I'm kind of surprised didn't, uh, uh, mention that because it's kind of key aspect of the technique.
+
+[8:16] The, you know, other things you might want to try. Um, is, uh, it depends if, like, so those kinds of foams are usually extremely airy,
+
+[8:26] like extremely airy, right? If you want something a little bit, uh, denser, um, methocell F50, uh, is really cool. That makes more of like a shaving cream or a Guinnessy kind of head, and you're going to want to use like 0.8%, so like 8 grams per liter, and then you blend that in in like
+
+[8:46] in a blender to hydrate it. Let it hydrate for a long time. Sometimes it takes a while to hydrate. And then you can whip that thing in a kitchen aid, and it foams up. Now you need to have enough solids to get it to work right. So if you don't, you can add some, um, Maltodextrine. Uh, you know, not like a crazy one, like Anzorbit, just something like a bulking agent or uh, or a whipping agent like that. You can get the, like an orange juice to, to come up into like, almost like a shaving cream, but it'll be a little bit denser than, but much more persistent than the one that you
+
+[9:16] were, um, dealing with with there. You know, like a good one for that would be actually, do they make purees of that? They do make purees of that, but I don't know how dense they are. You need a little bit of pect and a little bit of structure in with the methocell to get it to work. Hope so, well. And then, I mean, that's great. I will definitely try that for next time. And the other one that I had, the other question was, I'm trying to make a healthier, I guess, ice cream for my parents, they,
+
+[9:43] everyone has a sweet tooth, obviously, and uh, the one that I was trying to make was out of a coconut milk, instead. And the issue that I had is everything flavor wires comes out comes out good, but when I put inside the fridge, it gets really hard. And I'm trying to see whatever commercial techniques because any regular uh, ice cream you put inside there will stay, uh, still airy and
+
+[10:07] fluffy, and I don't know if it's a combination of gums that are shifted in there. Or what, I mean, it's just token of water substituting. I'm sorry, coconut milk, substituting traditional milk or whipping milk. Right. But so by substituting for both the cream and the milk, right? Right. So a couple of things, probably your fat concentration is probably a little low. Uh, and, um, but, you know, you can, obviously, sorbets work, right? So the other thing is probably your sugar level might be a little bit low. Is it is it a lot less sweet than typical ice cream? Uh, I would say per quart, uh, I put about a cup, typically of a
+
+[10:47] sweetening, sugar. I have to do some math here. So, like, I can't think of that in terms of, see, quart a cup, a cup weighs roughly 8 ounces and so a quart is for,
+
+[11:00] so for... Sorry, I did some stuff in my head, right? So you're saying you're putting in 8 ounces of, uh, sugar into, um, 32 ounces of product that gives you a total weight of
+
+[11:16] 40 and eight. Yeah, so it's like 16 so that should be sweet enough, right? Right? It tastes sweet enough then, right? Yeah. Huh. Because usually like overly solid things are due and like textural problems like that are due
+
+[11:32] to, um, lack of sugar, uh, or, you know, especially if it's good when it's
+
+[11:39] soft, it means it's free. you say it's good when it's soft, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely taste wives before I make it hard. tastes great. Yeah, in other words, when you initially churn it before you, before it turns hard, that it, it tastes fine when it's, before it's been aged, right? Exactly, yes. Yeah. Okay. So, typically, overly hard on storage is going to be, uh, just, uh, it's
+
+[12:03] getting too solid and you control the solids by controlling the meltdown rate and you control the meltdown rate by how much sugar is in it. So, I mean, um, I guess it's hard for me to do the numbers on the fly, uh, I
+
+[12:17] got to, I have to go back and remember exactly what my target bricks for is for a sorbet.
+
+[12:21] You want to treat it like a sorbet, basically. even though it has the addition of it, because it's easier to calculate. That's how I calculate. I do my all my sorbets with coconut milk. Um, but, uh, I usually they're fairly sweet, right? So I tend to use coconut cream because it's got sugar in
+
+[12:38] it and it's so easy for me. Like, I can just buy like a package of puree, and then like a package of coconut. I mean, a can of coconut cream. I know this sounds like real, like, I'm not working, but, you know, but it's easy for me because I do it at home for the kids and mix them together and it works fantastically well.
+
+[12:56] Um, I think I just have to recalculate. Do the recalculation on the sugar, uh, and go uh, look up because I don't have it off the top of my
+
+[13:05] head, like the uh, Target bricks for like a sorbet. ignore the fat content of the ignore the fat content of the coconut milk to start with because it's not going to hurt. It's not going to hurt you in terms of your calculations, and figure out a target bricks for it, and then see whether or not you're going a little bit too low on the sugar. Because did it taste kind of less sweet than normal, good, but less sweet than normal? No, I mean, taste like everything was good. It's usually more so, like you said, just in the agent, it gets too hard inside the fridge, and I can put a commercial ice cream in there, and it will
+
+[13:40] still, this off, but. I mean, you could add some whipping agents to it to try and uh, increase the, uh, increase the air. Um, commercial coconut milk already has some, uh, usually has
+
+[13:54] some some product in it to stop it from breaking because regular coconut milk will break when you heat it and canned stuff usually typically doesn't.
+
+[14:01] I dont know if you're making it yourself or not. Um, but if you're using cans, that typically will have some stuff in it. But you could add, um, some sort of a uh, thickener, like a locust bean
+
+[14:13] or or, or a flavor free iguar to it and see whether that uh, helps you, helps you out a little bit. But if the sucker tastes good, um, uh, when it's soft, it's probably not an overrun problem.
+
+[14:27] So like if it's overly dense when it gets hard and and, but it doesn't temper out nicely either. Like it doesn't, when you pull it out of the freezer for a little while, does it scoop nicely eventually and get back to good
+
+[14:36] texture or does it just turn like a rock and stays a rock until it's melted? No, I mean, it eventually goes back to a nice, that's true. It's definitely stupid, again. Right, so it could be density. It could be density, in which case you might want to up the solid. So it's coconut milk and what? Coconut milk. I definitely put the coconut cream in too, like you're saying, and I do use the can. And then, um, every once in a while, I'll throw some liquor in
+
+[15:02] there as well, depending on what plate I'm doing. Right, that'll make it softer. But I wonder whether you need a higher solids content, whether it's not, it's just not churning enough. You know what I'm saying? Like, you might want to... Sometimes I'll put in like, I'll put in coconut
+
+[15:16] nut, so hopefully make like, uh, so it's definitely next to like a syrup instead of actual
+
+[15:21] sugar. I don't know if that could be a problem perhaps. No, I mean, like, if you added too much sugar, it would get too soft, right? and it wouldn't freeze properly. It wouldn't get too hard. So if this stuff does come back to being kind of in good temper again and it's sweet enough, then it could be that you're just not getting enough overrun. And so you need to add some, um, something that's going to increase the, um, the actual overrun, the whipping ability of it, in which case that would be more
+
+[15:48] solids probably. Um, and then maybe something uh, that aerates it more. You know what? Like if anyone's listening that has a good kind of a breakdown on this. Because usually when I'm doing coconut milk, it's not straight coconut milk, it's coconut
+
+[16:03] milk and a fruit puree, and the pectins that are in the fruit purees are helping me with
+
+[16:10] solids, with body. I think maybe that's what, you know, what's going on. If you see whether or not you have the same problem when you do, um, when you do like, um, a flavor that has more solids. Like I've done really good coconut milk, sorbet style stuff is with
+
+[16:27] chocolate, like chocolate, coconut milk, sorbet is fantastic. So you take like coconut milk, uh, and or
+
+[16:35] cream, and, uh, you know, melt chocolate into it, and I usually also add uh, cocoa powder because I want really dense kind of chocolate flavor.
+
+[16:43] And that texture comes out pretty, pretty nicely. So you might want to, um, see whether or not it's just a solid dish, whether you just don't have enough actual solids in it. For sure. Excellent. I'll definitely try that. But again, this is off top of my head. So hopefully I'm not off base and be like, that guy does not know what the hell he's talking about. No, not at all. I mean, as a matter of fact, I was just going to say that I've listened
+
+[17:08] to as many of your previous podcasts that you've done, I've become enthralled
+
+[17:13] and your biggest fan. That's why I've watched you all of the talk. And, uh, I can't wait for your, your cocktail book come out and then your seeers all. Wow. Donated a few times over, waiting for the new one to come out. Cool. Well, appreciate it. Well, it's uh, we're uh, we're actually talking to our suppliers right now, uh, Styles, right? We're looking, we're looking. we're hopefully going to be on time. We might be a couple weeks late, right? Right. A couple. I hope not. We're gonna we're gonna update more as we go. But I'll tell you something. I won't be talking out of my behind in the cocktail book. That thing has been thoroughly vetted thoroughly vetted. In fact, like, you know what, one of the weird things that we had, uh, uh, recipe change on was, um, with the
+
+[17:55] Campari and soda. Like, so we have on the bar now, we have a recipe that's the Booker and Dax take on
+
+[18:00] Campari and soda. And, um, You know, the benefit is you can carbonate the whole thing. So although, you know, nastasia here likes any comparian. soda variant, right? No matter regardless of like how well or poorly it is carbonated. Uh, you know, booker index, we like to carbonate everything, right? And uh, we're also kind of people rib us because uh, our drinks tend to be, like, everyone claims that our drinks are high in alcohol, even though they're the same amount of alcohol that you
+
+[18:28] have in any, in any beverage. So we do the uh, Camparian soda, and we use uh, champagne acid. So champagne acid is a mixture of lactic acid and um, tartaric. And the reason is, is because although the grapes have a balance of tartaric and malic acid, most champagnes, one of the notable exceptions is
+
+[18:46] Krug. Did you, are you, you like Kruegiver? Yeah, so you notice how Krug Stas is shaking your head? She's so happy thinking about champagne that she can't like words can't even come to her mouth. But she, uh, uh, Krug has a kind of an apple note on it when
+
+[19:00] you, kind of like a green fresh apple note on it, and that's because of the malic acid because Krug does not go through malilactic fermentation. Whereas um, most champagnes do. And when they go through malalactic fermentation, the acids turn from malac to lactic. And so the champagne acid we use is a blend of lactic and tartaric. But the weird here's where it gets weird. So we add that instead of a squeeze of lime, we add that to, and we did
+
+[19:26] this, by the way, before the lime craziness, where the lime prices are so high now. Uh, but, um, we do it so that the, the Kampari, uh, and soda alike drinks more like a wine and less like a cocktail. Uh, Crazy thing is, turns out that if you bottle the stuff, add the acid, carbonate it and let it sit overnight, that the bitterness, the inherent bitterness of the campari is
+
+[19:50] amplified like greatly. So it tastes delicious when you make it, and then the next day, it's kind of unpalatably bitter. And it's not unpalatably bitter in that it's like so bitter. like it's like the bitterness lingers. It just lingers. And we did a test. We did a test, but with adding it before, you know, we ran a test and putting Aperol in, because Aperol is, you know, less bitter. And Aperol also gets, you know, Aperol for those of you that don't drink Aperol. Aperol is like Campari, slightly sweeter, slightly less alcoholic cousin. And, um, we did it with, uh, Aprol, Aprol also got bitter. So it now, and we don't know why. I have no idea why, but we tested it without the acid in it and it was fine. It was stable. So something about storing diluted Campari or Aperol in the presence. And I don't know whether it's any acid because we didn't test it with, um, you know, Malik or like a lime acid blend. We tested it just with lactic and tartaric, the champagne acid, but something about it causes the liquor to change
+
+[20:51] overnight. It's very odd. I have no idea why. I just know it empirically to be the case. Um, so that's a recipe that was in the book that now I'm going to have to add a little footnote because once we had tested it for stability in the bar,
+
+[21:05] we noticed this phenomena that we completely didn't um, anticipate because the acid itself,
+
+[21:11] unlike uh, lime juice or lemon juice, which is known to go bad over time, you
+
+[21:16] know? It's not the acids that go bad and it's not the product, it's the actual juice that goes bad. So I had not expected that in a, uh, in a capari situation. Uh, so should we take our 1st commercial break? Come back some cooking issues. Yes. Let's do it. It is my third.
+
+[21:52] Hello, do it yourself, sir. Ever thought about gardening? If you can build that window box, you can build a raised band in your backyard, Bonnie, veggie and herb plants in raised beds make a fast weekend project with a big payback.
+
+[22:10] Fresh, grow them yourself, tomatoes, and peppers, kale, basil, and thyme, and so much more. Body plants are healthy and strong, and help jumpstart your garden. So get growing. Plans and how-tos at bonnyplants.com. Are we back? We're back. And we're back with cooking issues. I never can I never can tell. Like, sometimes, like, it ends abruptly. Sometimes, we, you know, kind of, keep you on your toes. I know it. I know it. Even though we're sitting on our duffs here. You mentioned the lime shortage thing before. It's crazy. I was reading all these articles. People like, yeah, I'm just going to sub-lemons. I mean, that's crazy, you know? Yeah that won't work. That won't work. So, you know, just, you know, well, I mean, if you don't care, if you're an enemy of quality, you know, then it
+
+[22:54] won't it won't matter, then, you know, it's fine. You can do whatever you want. You could substitute, you know, I don't know, swill. It doesn't matter, but if you want it, the stuff that, like, lemons and limes don't taste any, they don't taste the same. They don't function the same way. And strangely, you can tell more once a drink is made that you, like, some people make the mistake of tasting just lime juice and just lemon juice and thinking, like,
+
+[23:17] it's, you know, it's like, because it's something that's that acidic, like those, the differences between the 2 are only going to come out more as when they're used in a drink. We ran a test. So both lime juice and so much more than Jack was hoping for. Uh, we ran a test with uh, lemon juice and uh, lemon juice and lime juice are roughly 6% acidity. Uh, lemon juice, the, the acid uh, predominantly, just forget the vitamin C, because the corbic acid doesn't really affect the flavor of it that much, uh,
+
+[23:47] is, is uh, citric. That's the bulk of the acid in a lemon. And in a lime, it's instead of 6% citric, it's more
+
+[23:55] like and give or take, right? It's like 4% citric and 2% Malik. And it's that citric malic blend that creates the natural acidity of, um, lime. Now, the, the trick is, you know, we wanted to do, we wanted to fake, uh,
+
+[24:12] we want, we tried to do a fake thing where we took lemon and then doped it with malic acid and water so that it was still 6%, uh, but it had the correct blend.
+
+[24:21] And it wasn't quite, uh, right. Part of the thing when you're shake, most of the time when you're using a citrus like a lemon or a lime, you're shaking a cocktail. when you're shaking a cocktail. It's not just the acidity you need. You actually need the, the, the, the surface active properties of the, of the juice itself, the, the pecked ins, whatever else is in
+
+[24:40] it, that cause uh, um, that shaking cocktails to hold air better, right? and become you know, kind of better shaken cocktails. So I don't know whether it just tasted not as good or whether or not, you know, we
+
+[24:52] could just tell because it didn't have that kind of peel note that's in lime juice. Of course, that I could have faked it by adding a little bit of succinic acid, which is the secret ingredient in lime acid. Uh, and also hard to source. But we weren't able to get a good thing, even when we were specifically trying to do a subout. So during the shortage, we have, we have less lime juice shaking cocktails and more of our lemon juice shaking cocktails on the menu. We're luckily, we are not, you know, forced to use one or the other. But, you know, the thing about it is, Jack, is that even though limes are ridiculously expensive now, like a factor of
+
+[25:26] four, I think, I forget what the recent numbers are. It's crazy like that. Yeah, it's, well, and your, so you, you pay by the case, which is a certain case count, but the, the amount of juice that's in the ones we're getting now is nothing. So it's like, you know, we're in that time of year anyway where when you juice the lime, like 2 drops of juice come out of the lime. And so they're expensive and useless. So the actual price difference isn't even enough of a factor to factor in how bad they are.
+
+[25:52] Um, But still, relative to expensive liquor, it's still, you know, and relative to the use rate, you know, you can kind of, you can kind of
+
+[26:03] afford it. Although the issue is just, you know, we don't want to order too much because we throw it away at the end of the night. So it gets expensive if you make a lot extra and then you have to throw it away at the end of the night or we don't we don't actually throw it away. We give it to the kitchen because the kitchen can use it in cooking applications that, you know, we can't use it for in drinks anymore. But yeah, it's pain in the butt. Hopefully, I'm told that all of that nonsense will be over in May. at the end, well, at the end of May. Yeah. There'll be another crop coming in. Because this one is shafted by a number of things. So everyone says it's the cartels. I like to say it's the cartels, but, you know, they had a spot of weather, as we say. Not the cartels. come on All right, well, I mean, like, I want it to be the cartels. Right? That's what we all want. A better story. Yeah, you know. It's like, but if it was the cartels, right, avocados come from a similar area, don't they? Like avocado prices haven't spiked as much as limes. Of course, you don't need armed guards for, I mean,
+
+[27:02] like for your lime trucks now require armed guards. I think the last time I read an article, and it's good, again, I'm talking out of my behind, so I could be wrong, but what I, you know, the article I read was that a tractor
+
+[27:14] trailer, limes, had, like, you know, a value of street value of over $100,000 now. So it's like, you know, no, it's a lot of freaking lives. But you got to remember, like, you know, I'm used to limes being like, you know, seven, eight, for a dollar, you know, at the Essex Street market, where I buy limes and cheap avocados, and
+
+[27:31] Ann's delicious, but not inexpensive cheese, that would be Ann Saxby. Uh, but, um, isn't that weird, that market, they have like, like,
+
+[27:41] like people who are selling the cheapest possible avocados in bulk and then like
+
+[27:47] Ann Saxelby, it's a strange market setup, right? a cool market. Yeah, it's wonderful. Unfortunately, it's only going to be more of the latter going forward, I think. More of which one? Which one's the ladder? of the delicious but not inexpensive items. I don't know. I think that they're obliged to keep the avocado vendors there. I mean, there's like 5 or six. I mean, the reason is there's 5 or 6 people that sell very similar styles of produce
+
+[28:11] there, and so they're beaten, their prices get beaten down pretty, pretty hardcore. Anytime someone who's there has something that isn't duplicated 3 and 4 times, the price tends to rise a little bit. But I don't know. Jack, you used to work there every once in a while, right? At the market? No, but I mean, the heritage meat shops there, so I've spent some time there. I just saw you when you hung out at the, you could used to hang out occasionally at the heritage meat shop in the market. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's great spot. Yeah, someday someone will tell, so heritage meat, there you, well, won't get, won't get in. won't talk. If you're in New York, go to Gas Street Market and get a heritage pork chop and some sacks, it'll be cheese. How about that? There you go. And you can eat. I've never eaten at shop since eaten there? Oh, I haven't, but he's apparently a crazy guy. Yeah, man, again, we're just a little like inside, inside ball for New Yorkers, but there's a lunatic there,
+
+[28:59] shops. That's his 2nd location, right? You ever eaten there, Emma? No, I haven't. He's like an old school lunatic. He's like the soup Nazi for breakfast. Is that accurate? I mean, we had the menu in our office for a while, just as a kind of piece on its own on the wall to look at occasionally. He has a book. Right? He won't serve you if he doesn't like you, right? So I've heard. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to. I don't wanna have to be judged. I just want to eat breakfast and then go in peace. What about you, stars? do you think? you like being judged when you're having breakfast? You just want to eat? Do you like judging while you eat breakfast? Stars, do you like judging why you eat breakfast? I don't usually eat breakfast out. I don't eat breakfast actually. Really? Really? Most most important meal of the day. Which brings us back to Siri. Yes, which brings us back to cereal. But she does judge when she we both judge when we eat. Like, we're both pretty rough. Like we're both pretty mean. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Especially to women, you're really rough. How am I rough to women? That's a lie. First of all, I'm way rougher on men than on women. Emma, back me up on this. You hung out with me before. I'm not sure I've had enough meals with you. Certainly I've eaten here. What women am I rough on? Besides you. Like, any woman that he sees online, like, instant, like, anything, like a Twitter follower or, like, anything that you see on your computer that's a woman you're like, look at her. She's busted Are you kidding me? That is not true at all. That is a straight... First of all, not only is that, like, I am actually offended. That is a freaking lie. That's a freaking lie. What I show you is when people on Twitter follow me who aren't real, who clearly are not real people, who are out there trolling to get men to look at at
+
+[30:49] them to like trade some sort of pictures. It's the fake people that I point out. I don't point out any real people. People that I think are fake people. You know what I'm talking about. Jack, you know what I'm talking about on the Twitter, right? too, unfortunately. Yeah, I look at them like, that, that's not real. You know what I mean? Like they, you know, and then they're like, you know, email me for the picture. I not gonna email you for pictures. What do I need with your picture for? I don't need picture. Well, we've got a call. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, um, So since you're Wolfad person is here. I was gonna ask you, is there any update on the boom cereal? Are you guys gonna be able to make that? Oh, on the actual serial? All right, Emma, why don't you say what we're up to? What a segue. So indeed, yeah. We were actually just at the machine today and it was kind of in hibernation over the winter and need a little bit of care after the long rough winter that we had in New York. But the gun is in beautiful working order and we've been puffing a lot of rice and kind of trying to perfect the recipe on that front. I think we may also be testing out some various wheat varieties.
+
+[31:57] We had stayed away from wheat and gluten containing grains initially, but I think there might be a possibility to try those out actually after all. Sorry to everyone who is celiac, but there's just too many possibilities out there. So, I think we should be able to get those bags of puffs to
+
+[32:15] everyone. Probably by the end of the summer. I know it's a year later, but there was just a lot of downtime when we couldn't use the gun over the winter. Oh, that's that's fine. That's going to be very exciting. All right. And we're going to fire the gun at... What did you say? I got a question for you. A few weeks back, uh, you were talking about the merits of vitamixes, and you mentioned something about blending a pound of bacon into pasta sauce or tomato
+
+[32:45] sauce or something. Oh yeah. Is there a recipe behind that? No, it's just what happened. And luckily, my wife does not listen to this show because she hates when I tell this story. Um, but the, um, I hate it when people pick things out of food, I hate it. You know what I mean? Like, unless you're actually allergic to it. Like, I detest when things get picked out of things. I don't like when sandwiches get picked apart, like when someone gets a sandwich and they rip it open and they take all the guts
+
+[33:15] out. My kids do it all the time. It's like a constant source of irritation to me, but I, it just gets to me. So I used to make sauces, right? And then with bacon, right? And then at the end of the night, there'd be a little pile of bacon in
+
+[33:30] the, in the bottom of the bowl, because the bacon had been, you know, picked around or whatever, and it's not because
+
+[33:36] my, my wife is not one of these people, by the way, who is, you know, afraid of eating
+
+[33:42] fat. You know, in fact, one of the reasons I knew that she was the woman for me was because we once went to a Popeyes fried
+
+[33:48] chicken and she wasn't paying attention to what was going on. She took a whole bucket down by herself. I mean, this lady knows how to eat. So it's not that, but it was just something about it. And I was just like, uh. And so then I got the Vita Prep, and instead of having the bacon maintained and so it was a visible thing, I was like, to hell with it. After, you know, normally I would cook out the bacon, remove the bacon, sweat out
+
+[34:10] the, uh, whatever alliums I'm using and the bacon fat, add the, add the tomato, whatever else, cook down, blend,
+
+[34:19] uh, add bacon back at the end for crunch and texture. And, um, and then, you know, one day I was like to hell with it. And I just blended it into the sauce and it was so smooth, so
+
+[34:28] smooth. And so there's no way possibly to pull the bacon out anymore. And I was like, when? Yeah. Well, I've, I've noticed that I have that problem when I'm making, like, pasta sauces with bacon that I can't incorporate the bacon. It tends to stir out. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. ends up at the bottom of the bowl when you're tossing. It ends up at the bottom of the bowl when you're tossing is what you're saying, we were separating out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, the bacon is a fun part. I don't know how much we would lose in texture, but doing it that way, but, uh,
+
+[35:04] I, I'm gonna give it a try anyway. Yeah, here's what you should do. Blend blend it in for flavor, and then maybe save some, and then sprinkle over top, uh, like at service. Yeah, like garnish bacon, but then most of the bacon will be emulsified bacon. Yeah, that's the way to go. Oh, this is gonna be awesome. All right, thank you very much. All right, tweet, tweet on in. tell me how it tastes. Cool. Cool. thanks a lot All right, so going back to the gun for a minute. and then I got a question on the thing I have to hit before we go, but okay, so we're we're at the gun
+
+[35:38] today and it's gonna be, it's actually gonna be at our benefit, right? So you want to talk about the benefit for a second? May 7, right? It's going to be here in New York at an awesome place called the Foundry, which is in Long Island City.
+
+[35:50] And one great perk of this venue that we found, it's an industrial area, so we can drive up the puffing gun, unlike, you know, some sort of gala hall in Manhattan where, you know, space is limited. So we're going to pull up the puffing gun and hopefully do a couple of preview shots for people. So that's why we were there today. The benefit is going to be a huge, huge affair. I mean, we've got 8 of these amazing chefs lined up, each of whom is tackling a different museum themed
+
+[36:19] course. So, for example, I was recently emailing back and forth a little bit with Amanda Cohen of dirt candy, a vegetable centric restaurant in the East Village. And her theme is Korea before the chili, i.e. uh,
+
+[36:34] pre-Colombian, Korean cuisine. And for that matter, you can do that with a number of South Asian or Southeast Asian cuisines that rely heavily on Chili's. So, I think she said she's making a few different kinds of kimchi that are chili-free kimchi. The old white ones? Yes. I think so. Nice. Yeah, sounds good. What else we got? Why don't you tell them why don't you tell them who's and you can still buy tickets if you've got the cash. Uh, you just go to mofad.com or.org, right? Yeah, benefit.mofad.org is the place for tickets. So, uh, we've got individual tickets and then also if you got a group of buddies or colleagues. You can buy a table. So why don't you run through the chefs in what they're doing. So we've also got Franklin Becker of the Little Beat, who has what Massaswat brought to Thanksgiving. Now this is a bit controversial because the idea of a 1st Thanksgiving is pretty contentious historically. I think most food historians would say. There probably was no 1st Thanksgiving in the way that we have idealized it here in the
+
+[37:34] US. That being said, there is a primary source, uh, one or 2 letters that mention that this Wantanag chief
+
+[37:42] Massasua brought 5 deer to a gathering with colonists in Plymouth.
+
+[37:48] Deer tastes good. Denison, in May, maybe is a little dicey. I think the approach with this course is probably going to be something
+
+[37:55] more long lines of foraged food, since it's spring, and would be in keeping with the Native American cuisine theme. What else we got? Let's see. Oh, Wiley Dufrane, WD50. Longtime supporter of MoFAD is tackling the 4 humors. So the sort of extremely outdated notion that human physiology is based on these 4
+
+[38:19] substances, with black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood, I believe, are they? That's not true. Not true when it was debunked, but it was quite a while ago. So he's going to be kind of exploring this theme of food as medicine, the intersection between food and health through this
+
+[38:37] theme. I'm not exactly sure what his, what his, uh... It was an incredibly influential view in medieval cookery.
+
+[38:46] And so, uh, you know, a lot of medieval cookery was based around, um, you know, the idea
+
+[38:51] was, is you wanted to center yourself not to not too phlegmatic, uh, or moist and, you know, cold, not too hot, not too dry.
+
+[38:59] So you had your phlegmatic, and you're cold, you're hot, and you're dry, and you got to
+
+[39:03] get, and as represented by the different actual bodily humors to biles and whatnot. But it's a very interesting and demented, every food has its own sort of rating, and every cooking method had its own sort of rating. So roasting would be hot and dry. You know, and there's all different. And so like kind of balancing all that, um, interesting idea. Who else we got? Let's see. Also, I'm really excited about this one personally. Dominique Anzel of Cronet fame, although I'm sure he hates to be cast in that light, is taking on food on the battlefield.
+
+[39:36] And apparently he used to actually, for a short time, was a cook for the French military. And so he's got some actual hands-on experience doing this kind of food. And I think he's he's going to be doing a pastry course, as far as I know. Um, and I think the presentation will be will be very interesting there. I don't want to give away the secret entirely. We got, uh, we got, uh, Brooks Headley's doing, um, Food of Future Past, right? Yes, so a more conceptual theme. I haven't checked in with him. So again, not sure what that course is like in terms of its development. Michael Anthony got TV dinners. Yes. Another one where the presentation is going to be critical. And the idea there is we'll do a short video pitch on
+
+[40:19] MOFAD, since we're going to be announcing some big plans for the coming years, along with Michael Anthony's TV dinner. Nice, which is hilarious. That's everyone, right? No, we've also got Nils Noren? Oh, Nils, Nils, oh my God, the best. cuisine. Rastafarian, ital cuisine. Oh, I love Nils. Nils is a huge reggae fan. Who else we got? Let's see. And... Yeah, that's it? Sweet. Oh, and then on the I'm gonna hit this question real quick. Also, we've got Shangre of Momofuku Cove. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, whenever you're listening, things out of order, it's better listening to order. What his topic? He's got Pennsylvania Dutch food. He actually hails from Pennsylvania. Yeah, from Lancaster County, right? Right, right. So this will be hitting close to home for him in some way. Sweet. All right. And that's everyone, right? You got one now? All right, nice. All right. If we have a 2nd on the way out, I'm going to do a pitch for the round table too, Mofad round table. But, uh, we got a question in from Alex in Santa Barbara. Um, Hello, Dave, Nasasha, Jack, and maybe. He gave you a maybe, Jack. Maybe, wow. Wow. And everyone else is there today. Once again, thanks to the programs. Greatly appreciated. The question's a bit long, so please feel free to edit for your show. I believe we all do uneconomical things in or for the kitchen.
+
+[41:34] For example, last summer, I grew $25 tomatoes because I only managed to grow 4 of them. So spent $100 total, got 4 tomatoes, 25 bucks. The year before I was giving them away and figured I could repeat my success, but it didn't work out. I would have been much better off buying farmer's market tomatoes for 10 bucks and saving 90 bucks. The only reason I tried to grow them was because of tomatoes the year before were very good and very plentiful. This came up because my friend was just getting into home brewing. I immediately thought back to my tomatoes and figured he was about to spend a lot of money, time and effort to produce a product far inferior to what he could purchase easily. I understand the journey is part of the fun, but sometimes the cost isn't worth it. I do not brew my own soy sauce, roast my own coffee beans, smoke my own bacon, or keep a sourdough starter. The time energy and cost are not worth it compared to what is readily available. On the other hand, I never order something at a restaurant that I can pull off almost as well, if not far better at home. A New York strip steak is a great example. Instead, I try to order something which takes much more time and energy at home. Additionally, I never purchased a half court container of diced onions or jar of crushed garlic. That crushed garlic is gross. Uh, no fence, uh, to people who make it. I cannot believe those products sell well enough for the stores to stock them. I refuse to believe I'm alone and thinking this way. Like I said above, I can understand the journey and the experience is part of the fun. That said, what do you think are the uneconomical efforts put forth at home? More importantly? What are the products that should never be purchased because the cost quality effort are such that making them at home is the, uh,
+
+[43:00] is the, uh, uh, should never be purchased because, uh, because the cost quality effort are such that making them at home, uh,
+
+[43:06] is a bad idea. I went ahead of my brain. Hopefully the spirit of the question came through this email. Some of the things off the top of my head, peanut butter, right? He only buys it and he has friends that. I buy peanut butter because commercial peanut butter is delicious and you don't have a mill. I guarantee you don't have a mill that can produce peanut butter with the same texture as the stuff that you ever had any
+
+[43:29] natural, like home ground peanut butter you thought was really good. I know people who like that kind of texture. I'm not one of them. I like good old-fashioned, emulsified, sweetened US peanut butter. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That stuff's good. Uh, hot sauce. I always buy it. I think, here's the thing. I going to answer in general and then I'm going to go over some of these things. So, for instance, learning how to do everything, like being a brewer for a while, if not for your whole
+
+[43:54] life. If you like brewing, you should keep doing it because it's rewarding if you do it, right? It is a pain in the butt to do all grain, grain brewing. But I think doing anything once or twice is worthwhile if you want to know how things
+
+[44:06] work, even if you're not going to make the kind of best product. The only thing that I haven't done, really, in this list. I mean, I haven't done soy sauce, but, uh, wines because I, like, you don't have really control over the raw ingredients to even get kind of usually a reasonable expectation of the highest quality
+
+[44:23] on wines, one reason I haven't hit it yet, because I don't have a lock on the really high quality inputs, but like beer, you can get extremely high quality
+
+[44:30] inputs and you can make good beer. So do I brew beer anymore? No, after my 2nd son was born. I don't do anymore because it was a huge mess, but I did it for a while. Same with roasting coffee. I used to roast all my own coffee beans and I think it's really good. Other people can do as good a job or a better job than I can do. But I enjoyed learning about it, and I feel like I know much more about coffee for having done it. Uh, ditto sourdough starters. I, you know, I'd no longer maintain one, but I maintain one for a long time, and I think it was worthwhile, uh, to kind of feel what it's like to have
+
+[45:04] something, um, on a continuous basis you have to take care of in your kitchen that made delicious bread. So I think that there's, it's often worthwhile to go through the effort to do it, but not necessarily worth the effort to maintain it for your whole life. Does that make sense? Makes sense? All right, let's go over these one by one. Styles like, I don't care. Tofu. You said you liked yours homemade, but I read up on the process and now testing out everything the local Japanese market has to offer because I can't see myself going through all that effort. Here's another thing. Tofu is only hard the 1st 4 times you make it. As soon as your kitchen is streamlined and you have all this stuff ready and you've gone through the procedure, so you're not wondering what's going on, it's actually not that difficult to make, uh, to make tofu. Uh, you just have to remember to soak the stuff uh, beforehand is the only is the only big whoopie crap. So a lot of these things that are difficult are only difficult because we don't do them often. Uh cheese. I always buy, but I'm starting to think I should try my hand at my own ricotta at the very least with McGee's booking hand. What about you, Emma? You make your own cheese? No, actually, I think I've only done, you know, simple kind of fresh cheeses, paneer, things of that sort. Yeah, and I'm not very good at it. What about you, guys? You ever make your own mozzarella or anything? See, I think there's a huge art to making something like a mozzarella ricotta, I could try. But like real whey ricotta or like the whole milk ricotta one makes. don't know. don't know about that Puff pastry dough. I buy the frozen sheets. I've made it in the past and cannot tell the difference, which might say more about my pastry skills than it does about the quality of the frozen sheets. I make my own puff paste, but I like making it. enjoy the process of making it. Yeah, I like lemonated dose. They're time consuming, but they don't actually take a lot of effort. You just need to be able to take it out of the freezer, you know, over the course of a
+
+[46:35] day, 10 times. Yeah, I would say mine's probably worse than the stuff you can buy, but I enjoy making it. What about you? You ever do laminated doughs like that? No, not your jammy. Are you much of a baker or more of a cook? You don't like to bake much, right? Even cookies? No. No? Especially cookies. Uh, cake mix. This one's a tough call because the box is so very easy, but I like to think from scratch cakes are better. I don't like cake mixes. I never use cake mixes. I think it's an insult because it's literally like the stuff that they put in that box you can just buy and measure out. Same with pancake mix. I don't get it. I don't like that hyper uniform texture that they provide. I never, I never use them ever. Yeah, well, and particularly when you read about the history of the development of cake mixes and how they initially had made
+
+[47:16] them, so it was really almost just add water and then found that through kind of consumer research, Housewives were didn't really enjoy the process of making these cakes. There was too little to do. So they reformulated them. So you had to add egg and add a little bit of, you know, put in a tiny bit of effort. Yeah, so what the hell? It's like I also, I don't use Bisquick, no fence to Bisquick. I't use self-rising flour because I know how baking powder works, you know? Uh, tortillas. I buy them, have made them both corn and flour, but the local shop makes a fine product. I think it's very, look, it's a huge pain in the ass to make tortillas, but I still think I'd rather have, I use the
+
+[47:56] store bought ones like in a pinch, like for a normal weekday meal, and heat them up. If I don't have time. It's been a while since I've done the full next stabilization, I think it's definitely a worthwhile road to go down, but it's a pain, but like if I if I'm really in a hurry, Maseka is not that much slower, so you buy Maseka to do the tortillas. Dried pasta. I've made my own pasta, but fresh is definitely different than dried, not necessarily better, depending on the shape for things like spaghetti, the dried is preferred. Yeah, dried pasta is delicious. I like dried pasta. I like making fresh pasta, but to make fresh pasta, Well, you need to. I mean, you know, efficiently, to have it not be a pain in the butt. You need to have your kitchen set up to do it. So I used to always have my pasta, my rollers clamped onto my work surface and everything was there. And by the time water was boiling, I could almost have fresh pasta done because I didn't do what you were supposed to do.
+
+[48:46] I didn't give it the rest periods you're supposed to give it and all this and still tasted good, you know,
+
+[48:50] and so I used I used to make fresh pasta two, 3 times a week. My kitchen's not really set up for it right now. And then finally, mayonnaise, this one's a tough call. I'm going to make a dressing such as rancho blue cheese. Oh my god, Dexel's very interesting. Then I will put forth the effort, but for sandwiches and the like, I go with the jar, though lately I've been enjoying the Hamptons food alternative. I think you get the idea. I'm looking forward to your information on the things I could buy, but shouldn't. I have to come back next week with other ideas. I'll think about this, but I'll tell you this. I like mayonnaise in a jar. I like jarred mayonnaise. I enjoy commercial mayonnaise. I think that stuff is delicious. Now, I still know how to make mayonnaise and I make mayonnaise from time to time. But I like mayonnaise in a jar. Jack, you? Actually, mayonnaise is one of the few things I don't like, so... Yeah. weird, right? It is weird. Yeah. I mean if it's on something, I'll take it, but I'm never like, I don't know. Never reaching for the mayo. what's your mayo thoughts? I like it. But do you like it from majority, like fresh? Anyway, yeah. I mean, pretty different things, I think, but I mean, I'm pretty partial to QP myself,
+
+[49:52] but... Oh, QP is delicious. They, yeah, yeah, they, yeah, you get that in the, in the Asian marks, QB in the little thing. Well, I wish Stas Internet's such a high note with anyway. I wish we were still allowed to use commercial music, then we could leave on any way you want it. That's the way, you know, the journey song. You like that one or is that one of the ones you don't like? I like it. Yeah. All right. So anyway, we'll come back with more things that you should or should not make it home next week. on cooking issues.
+
+[50:21] This is Chris. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:50] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:16] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Marnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live from Roberta's Pictory
+
+[0:26] and Bruce Work, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday on the Harris radio network from, eh, well, a little late today. To, uh, we have to, we have to end on time today, Stas. 1155. I'll tell you what happened to me. It's my fault, obviously, but for those of you that live in New York City and take the subways and don't have your
+
+[0:41] metro card automatically renewed for you. Here's what happens when you go to the machine. you put the card, you put your card in the 1st it says, what do you want to do? Duh, I want a metro card, right? Right? Stas, you're with me on this. And then it says, okay, you know, what do you want to do? I want to refill this card. you can't just put the card in. You know what I mean? So you put the card in eventually after like 18 key presses. And it's like, well, what do you want to do to this card? I want to put money on it. I want to go in the freaking subway. You know what I mean? ask you a 1000000000 questions. And it's like, you sure? Are you sure? You sure you want to go on the subway? And then, like, you have to enter a 1000000000 times? You know how I'd never read the credit card on the 1st swipe? So Stas and I, our classic joke is, is that the person programming, it should
+
+[1:22] have just put a thing as, have you missed your train yet? Have you missed your train yet? How about now? Now? Now have you missed it? So then finally it spits the damn thing out and I see the, uh, there's one specific subway that will get me here on time and I saw, I saw it go, bing bong, as I ran up the stairs because I ran up the backside, you
+
+[1:38] know how they closed the front and then the back and then I got bing bonged. Anyway, my fault, but... The best is when the machine's like, we only accept nickels today.
+
+[1:46] Yeah. Like, I just don't, I don't get this crap at all. Like it doesn't take a rocket scientist. You see, everyone, no offense if the person who programs these machines happens to like hear this at some point, but look, here's a guess. If dude or a lady, I guess, a person, dude, he's kind of gender neutral for me, right? shoves a metro card into the machine. Odds are they want to do something to it, right? You don't have to wait to ask them. Like, if they try to shove a Metro card in, just accept it. Just accept it. And then be, oh, oh, wait a minute. This metro card is a metro card that has money on it. So he must want to add some freaking money to this damn thing. You know what I mean? I'm not making a joke, but you have the only subway station that's upstairs both ways. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I live at Yeah, I live in an awesome environment where it's like the old uphill in the snow both ways. It's true. Yeah. Yeah, Stas loves it because she has to go there because it's also the subway stop for Booker and Dax. No I go to Grand. You go to Essex? No, I mean, when we leave the radio station. Let me go from here. The radio station. Jack, how you doing? I'm good. Yeah? What happened at Williams College? I heard something went down. Uh, well, maybe we could talk about that later. Should we save that for after the break? I mean, all right. So I went to go. Are you talking about like the thing that made Nastasia actually happy for once in the past five years? Nastasia's been happy exactly 2 times in the entire 5 years or three, 4 years that we've been working together. What? was the 1st time? When you got us booked on Jimmy Fallon the 1st time, you were genuinely happy. And, um, I'm talking about not, well, this, I guess, counts for happy for someone else's pain. I seen her happy for other people's pain on more than one occasions. And this one. So this is entirely my fault. I go to Williams and I actually really like Williams a lot. So we're going to Williams. I'd never been to Williams College before, and the interesting thing about Jack, you ever go to Williams College? You ever hang out there? You ever go? He's not there. It's a college, not a university, right? And so the cool thing about it is that the students who are there,
+
+[3:51] the undergrads get to do a lot of stuff that, you know, if you go to university, like I'm sure it's Stanford, right? Same thing. You go to Stanford, the professors care most about the graduate students, right? It just the way it works at a university. I mean, they care about you when you're in the class, obviously. But, you know, the graduate students are more important than the undergrads from this point of view of the professors
+
+[4:10] at the time. But if you go to a college, there are no graduate students. So the professors care about the undergrads. Those undergrads got to do some pretty cool stuff. Anyways, so I did a, we did a lecture there and a sociology thing. So here's a story that Nastasia, I guess, primed Jack to have me tell. And that is, I'm driving for like 3 hours. And I don't know what the
+
+[4:29] hell. I, you know, we... We're with Peter Kim from the Museum of Food Trick. By the way, are there still tickets available for the event? No, not that event. The one this weekend. Yeah, both Okay, so, uh, it's the New York, uh, it's the New York Food Book Festival or whatever it's called, Festival of Food Books, Book and
+
+[4:45] Food Festival. Food book fair. They have it. This weekend in Brooklyn, yeah? At the White Hotel. At the White Hotel, yeah? I'll be there recording the MoFad panel. Oh, there you go. And the MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink is having the 2nd of its round table panels. you know what time it is yet? Since you're recording... do know. It's at the noontime. And the subject is genetically modified organisms and their place and food. For those of you that don't know, do we charge for this thing, Jack? Or no. don't know. I don't know. No, I don't, Mofads might be a little bit. Just go on.org. Muffet.org. And anyway, we're doing these series of round tables and I'm moderating, but not giving any opinions, which is so hard for me, so hard for me. Uh, uh, we did the last one on the soda band, and this one is on, um, gen- like generally on genetically modified uh, organisms in the uh, food
+
+[5:37] chain, and I am so sorry that I cannot throw my ¢2 in. The difficult thing, surprisingly, is it was more difficult for us to get, we thought it was going to be extremely easy for us to
+
+[5:47] get kind of anti-GMO people on. We have only really one kind of hardcore anti-GMO person.
+
+[5:54] And then, you know, kind of like a couple 2 that are vehemently pro and one that's just kind of more in the neutral zone. But we're hoping to get, uh, we have some questions in from, you know, outside folk that are, you know, that are very
+
+[6:07] antic, because the whole idea is we want to have in these round tables. A reasoned debate on both sides, not just, you know, show one side or the other. Do people at this radio station, are they anti-genetically modified organism, Jack, in general? I mean, generally I'd say so, but we're trying to keep more of an open mind around it because it's not
+
+[6:26] so, you know, black and white. Back to the Williams story. Well, hold a second. It's not it's not just it's not black and white. It's like, I don't even think that they that the argument is framed properly. Right. I don't think people know what they're supporting or against. For instance, like here's something that people don't think they're they're focusing specifically on like
+
+[6:45] transgenic, like additions of genes from different specie or even different, you know,
+
+[6:52] whole categories of thing into something for a specific trait. So, for instance, the ability to um, the ability to resist roundup, right? So you have roundup ready things, right? Which is a nervous side, or the ability to create its own pest resistance without the need for pesticides, which seems to me to be kind of an inherent good, right?
+
+[7:13] Um, whatever. Or increased yield or theoretically, you could increase the nutritional value of things like the, uh, you know, golden rice. It has a higher beta carotene level. There's wide variety of things for doing this. But it seems to me that there's a bunch of different arguments for the harm of
+
+[7:28] it, and other than the moral arguments, like the actual safety, there's also economic arguments, right? I'm not going to get into those, but if your argument is against the safety of it, right? There are things that we do to plants that are much more dangerous from a standpoint
+
+[7:43] of creating possible allergens, right, in the food system. So, um, you know, force mutation through the application of ionizing radiation, right? Which is like, you know, has been since the atomic age, has been, you know, a method for inducing rapid, uh, change in things like corn, for instance, right? You radiate a boatload of seeds. Some of them have mutations, some of them are useful, or very few of them are useful. The rest get thrown away, and you can get new things this way. Much higher potential, according to the studies I've read for possible new allergens and weird crap happening with that sort of mutation, than when you're taking a targeted gene that you know what it does already and injecting it
+
+[8:25] in. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, but like that requires no labeling. No one's saying that we should go label those kinds of seeds. There's no, it's not even on the table. It's not even considered in the genetically modified, you know, in the rubric of genetically modified organisms. So, it just seems to me that, like, to frame all of GMO as kind of one thing under one
+
+[8:44] tenth that's done for one reason with one set of goods and one set of harms is kind of silly. No? Jack, you with me on this? Anyways. I like how you're like squeezing in all your opinions because you can't give them as you're moderating the panel. You like that? Yeah. You like that? All right, so back to Williams. So I'm at the Williams College. And I don't know why Nastasia was, because Nastasia enjoys the embarrassment. once she brings it up, I have to say it. So I go into my room. I forget my luggage is. My luggage is filled with crap for demos. like CO2 and... your clothing. No, my clothing was in my shoulder bag. You said you, well, whatever. Anyway, my clothing was in my shoulder bag. Uh, and uh, because who cares about my clothing? I shoved that in my shoulder bag and the important stuff, the demo goes in my in my in my luggage. So I'm wheeling the luggage, and we didn't do it old school Piper, where we had an open can of propane in it that was left on and nearly burned his hair off.
+
+[9:32] Remember that? That was awesome. It wasn't really awesome. So so anyway, so he has my luggage because I don't know, for some, I always carry everything. I always carry everything. Stasma, right? I carry every freaking thing. So, like Peter, for some reason, thinks he's going to help me out. So he starts wheeling my luggage, so I forget I have it. because my clothes aren't in it. You know what I mean? And I'm not carrying it. So it doesn't exist, right? So I go to my room. I've been driving for like 3.5 hours. We're about to leave. So I go, and I forget to shut my door behind me. It's a giant room, by the way. William said it's in these giant rooms. And I forget to shut the door behind me. I don't know, I assume it auto closed or something and I go into the bathroom and I don't shut that door either because I'm alone in my room. And then Peter and Stas come to bring my luggage, which they didn't need to bring to me because I was going to take it to the demo
+
+[10:18] anyway because all the stuff in the demo is in it. And then I see them out and they're like, Dave, what's up? I'm like, oh my god, I realized the door's though, because they're calling in. I'm like, leave the luggage and shut the door. And then, so Peter starts wheeling the luggage in. He starts wheeling it into the well, into the, into the, there's a, there's a hallway, a foyer, right? And I can see that the kind of movement in the mirror and I'm like, ah, nah. I'm like, so I say, I say close it, meaning the door because clearly the luggage is already inside because I can see the movement of the hand, but here's what Peter
+
+[10:50] hears. closer. Closer? Why would I say closer? That's crazy. So, so he starts going, all right. So I see him like moving closer with the luggage and I'm like, get out, get out. What is wrong with you? Shut the door. Although I had some expletives that were like mixed in. But I guess from their standpoint, they're like, why is this guy leaving the door open and maybe something's wrong with him? Maybe he's dead. I don't know. Maybe he went back inside or whatever, and they hear, leave the luggage and close the door. closer. Anyways, so, and that, that little, just to give you an idea of nastasia, that
+
+[11:27] little, uh, because you don't understand, Dave's biggest fear in life is either being naked or being on the toilet and having anyone hear him or see
+
+[11:35] him. Yeah, or I don't like, I don't like, 1st of all, I like, I only like my restroom in my house, which right now is buried in the very back corner of the
+
+[11:44] house and like, you know, my wife and I, we have our own. I don't know, the kids share it nothing. It's like, you know, it's like my little castle area. I don't want to be bothered, irritated, spoken to. Then you close your hotel room door. Well, look, I made one error and then completely compounded out of all reason. Nuts. Call into questions too, 7184972128. That's 784972128. Nice segue. You like that? Uh, yeah. So anyways, so you can go on the line and go and see the
+
+[12:14] GMO thingamajig at the book festival and I recommend checking out because you know what I like me some books about? Likely some food book style. You like some food books? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What, do you like, do you like Grupo Pizza? It's totally mean. You don't know? I don't know what it is. It's that super thin cracker crust pizza. Oh, no, I like deep dish. What the what? I really love dish. Deep dish. Where did this come from? I just love Chicago style pizza. When was it? I had it in San Francisco last year. So have you been to Chicago and had it? Uh-huh. When were you Chicago? Years, like 10 years ago. How is it that we've like been together this long? I have no idea that you like this kind of pizza. Which, by the way, in Chicago, when you go there and you're like, yo, gay, I want to try some of this
+
+[12:59] Chicago. They're like, nah. They're like, nah, you don't really want to do that. Really? I don't know. They're like ashamed of it there. Like the people I've spoken to there, the locals, they're like ashamed. I guess because they think, look, 1st of all, like when I was a kid, people used to say, oh, New York
+
+[13:14] pizza, oh, New York style pizza. You have New York style pizza. Pizza in New York until about 10 years ago sucked. It sucked hard. It was bad. You know what I mean? There was like 4 or 5 places that made really, really good versions of like old school American New York
+
+[13:28] pizza that I liked, you know what I mean? Like, I like, you know, I like Grimaldi's, I like Lombardi's, I like all that stuff. You know, uh, I guess Arturos. I forgetting a bunch of people, I'm sure. But like, you know, like us actually kicking any sort of butt in the pizza world really is only the past 10 years, you
+
+[13:44] know? But I've never heard someone say that, you know, they're like, you know what I really like? None of this crap. I really, you know, you know, DOP and, you know, none of that crap that I like deep dish. You know, if I had to get like a non-restaurant or artisanal pizza or whatever, I'd probably go to a pizzeria Uno, too. Yeah. I've never, you know, I've never been to pizzeria. Is that similar to a pizza hut style? No, it's like, it's, you know, their whole thing is like Chicago style deep dish. But I guess it's a level above the pizza huts of the world. Well, I mean, I would guess. I mean, I mean, like, yeah, yeah, no offense to Pizza Hut. No offense. Offense, it's terrible. Or a fence. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, someone sent me, you know, because everyone here who's heard the past couple of episodes knows what I feel about Subway and their new flatiza crap. Someone sent me that there's a new chain that's going to come out with a pizza cake. It's like 8 layers of pizza. It looks like deep dish. But it's like deep... I mean, like, 1st of all, people listen, people, people, people. Deep dish pizza works for one reason only. It's not like a crust. It's bread. It's freaking bread, right? Right? And when you make a deep dish pizza, and I know this because even though I'm not a consumer of deep dish pizza, I did deliver Domino's
+
+[14:59] Pizza for a whole summer. in the summer. Yeah, yeah. I drove my mom's car with empty plates on it. So, you know, I was 60 miles an hour all the time. This was back when they used to actually still guarantee the delivery times and like they would tell the drivers, listen, don't speed. Don't break any traffic regulations, but on the other hand, get the freaking pizza there on time. Get it there on time. And they would give you like 3 pizzas to do in one run. I was never late. This is I mean, like, you know, this is why they should not let teenagers drive. Anyways, uh, so you pre-bake those suckers and that's how you get them to work by pre-baking the deep dish thing and then adding the stuff so you get a layer of baked bread so you don't have that nasty, soggy nonsense in the, uh, where the topping, you know, meets
+
+[15:40] the, meets the pizza. Now, because otherwise it would be a nightmare. Imagine. Imagine, Stas, that you have like sauce against a thick thing that wasn't pre-baked at all. That's a nightmare, right? So do you like the grease spray that they put on the bottom of those pins to get the deep dish stuff, do they do that in Chicago? They have like the layer of grease. Is it baked in a pan? Yeah, but I really don't remember eating. Yeah. Anyhoo, uh, so the point is that if you're doing it in a big cake format. How the hell are you going to get to cook right? unless you cook them all individually, like flash cook them, then layer them and then recook them at the
+
+[16:13] end. But even like an old school, like an Italian, like a pasticio, like a pasticio, a
+
+[16:18] lepre, something like a rabbit pie with like the raised sides on it and stuff, like in Bujali's old book, like, I don't think that has lots
+
+[16:25] of, you know, dough layers in the middle of it, does it? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's a nightmare of an idea. But we'll see. I mean, I'm willing to try a thin slice. First of all, who wants pizza in that format? Who wants to eat pizza with a fork except Bill de Blasio? Yeah. You know? All right. Um, okay. So, uh, also I was researching somebody's uh, question. What do we, did I miss something? I miss it? Oh, yes. MoFAD? is having its 2nd blowout benefit on Wednesdays, the
+
+[16:57] seventh, which is a Wednesday. Yeah. May 7th, and we have an incredible series of chefs coming in and there are still tickets available. Go to MoFed.org. because they have a link directly off the thing now, right? Yeah. It's expensive. You guys wish you had gone to the original one that Nastasia and I threw and stupidly only charged $250
+
+[17:20] for it, which was crazy. Like, you could not buy that meal anywhere near $250. That was nuts. Like the value on that was crazy. We're the dumbest 2 people that are at least that are sitting in this radio station right now. Oh, by the way, speaking of dumb, did you notice that now that the weather's nice, Roberta's finally put up a freaking aunting outside? Oh, I was like, wait, what the hell? Does that make any goddamn sense? had to happen sometime. It's the one day you don't need a freaking awning is right now. There it is. There it is. It's not an awning. like a it's a winter door. It's like a winter vestibule thing. Yeah, not at all. It's like a winter vestibule. It may rain a lot. Yeah, but there's the inside thing. It's just a nightmare. And you know what? They put the thing up, but don't they still have the ratty curtain or do they get rid of the ratty curtain? There's a ratty curtain. So, like, the thing about Roberta's is, right, is that everything is kind of like, and I say this with
+
+[18:11] love. complete love, Jack. Right? No, but I'm saying, so you know, I want you to vouch for this. Everything's put together with kind of like with duct tape, spit and bubble gum. Yes. Yeah. And they're kind of like, hey, we want a dining room. I'll just get some tinker toys and glue the crap together and we'll have a dining room and somehow it works for them and it's great, right? So, like a typical Roberta style, when you walk in to prevent the wind from like killing everyone at the front, they have a ratty curtain, which, you know, it was nice probably when it started, but it turned ratty and they kept it and that was kind of the
+
+[18:41] charm. And so they kept the ratty curtain and added the vestibule. What's up with that? Any thoughts, Jack? All I can say is when it's busy here at night, that the spillover. Maybe it'll help the waiting people waiting. Who the hell wants to wait in a vestibule? I hate waiting in a vestibule. A warm summer night? You want to be in a vestibule? Yeah, cramped in a vestibule with a bunch of hipsters. Nice for winter. By the way, my booker and Dax were like, dad, what's a hippie? Oh. Did you see there was a Jesus contest on Sunday? No. Well, we're running a little far afield here. Okay. So I was researching a question that I'm going to read you in a second. Should we ever get the questions here on the show? And I came across this paper, which I will just read you the abstract
+
+[19:23] of, because if you're like me, you read a lot of abstracts of articles, and I like abstracts of review articles, but somehow this one captured my attention, so I'm
+
+[19:32] going to read it to you. Applications and function of food grade phosphates by Lucina Lampila, the Department of Food Science in the Louisiana Sea Grid
+
+[19:40] College Program, LSU Act Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. LSU, that's for Pat. Yeah? Go, Pat. That's not Pat the Patriots. That's Pat Nastasia's friend. Food grade phosphates are used in the production of foods to function as buffers, sequestrance,
+
+[19:57] acidulants, bases, flavors, cryoprotectants, gel accelerants, dispersants, nutrients, precipitants, and as free flow,
+
+[20:04] anti-caking, or ion exchange agents. The actions of phosphates affect the chemical leavening of cakes, cookies, pancakes, muffins, and donuts. The even melt of processed cheese, the structure of a frankfurter, the bind and hydration of delicatessen meats, the fluidity of evaporated milk, the distinctive flavor of cola beverages, the free flow of spice blends, the mineral content of isotonic beverages, and the
+
+[20:27] light color of par fried potato strips. Hell, yeah. That is an article I want to read about me, some phosphates. That's selling the phosphates. am I right, Jack? Yeah, sounds pretty good. Hell yeah. I'm like, phosphates. What? And they use phosphates to make them more acidic to make them more basic. It's like phosphates and everything. And this article starts from like mining rocks out of the ground to like all of those kind of things. So if you like a review article like I like a review article, go check out
+
+[20:54] Lucino Lampila's applications and functions of food grade phosphates. available at any, you know, major, uh, academic library near you. You know, this could be like a regular segment on the show, you review a paper like that, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that was a pretty good review right there. Yeah, well, check this one out. This one, the paper's not so interesting, but this has to have lost something in translation. So if I were to ask you, what a spent chicken is, Stas and Jack, what do you think a spent chicken is?
+
+[21:26] The remains of I don't know. Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought it was like they had a bunch of like, you know, like partially defatted fatty meat product or like mechanically deboned. Like that's what I thought they meant spent chicken was. No, no, a spent chicken is a chicken that's been laying eggs for, like, you know, its entire, like, laying lifetime. However many months, they allow it before it stops laying eggs effectively. That's what they mean as a spent chicken. So they're tougher, right? And like they're really good for things like soups and stews, but I guess these guys are trying to find, uh, you know, other uses for it. So here's this article. I was going to read the title for you and tell you what they did. It's by Anchor Das and Dilip Ronjon at all, Dilip Ronjon Nath at all. And it's studies on certain quality attributes of meat pickle prepared from spent chicken. Wow. You know what they do? They pressure cook and then they pressure cook in vinegar and deep fry with spices, chicken until it has so little moisture and like so high acidity
+
+[22:25] they can just sit out on a shelf for 90 days without anything happening to it. But like, when was the last time you hankered for a spent chicken pickle? And in the article they call them spent chicken pickle, which is, I think, a really good band name. What do you think, Jack? You can start a band called Spent Chicken Pickle. I have to talk to Joe about that. Yeah, speaking of which, what was that music we had at the beginning? Oh, it was a band called Snowmine. Yeah, it's a strange combination of weepy and optimistic at the same time. Can I disclose something funny on the air very quickly? The bassist in that band? The drummer, rather, was my my butt, my orientation palette, NYU. And he was dating at the time a girl named Stephanie Germanado, who was one of our classmates. Yeah, exactly. She went on to be Lady Gaga. Oh really? Her name is Germanado? Germanada. Stephanie Germanada. Yeah, so any skinny on that? I mean, I didn't like her band in college. Jack's like, well, you know, I heard her band in college. I wasn't a fan. I wasn't. I wasn't. I just wasn't a fan. just didn't, you know, thought it was derivative work. Oh, musicians. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, at all. Thank you for your assistance with my last question on sous vide fried chicken. I haven't tried it since then, but your description of the problem with my process seems spot on. And this is the question, by the way, that I was researching and found phosphates and all sorts of other things. I did fried chicken for Easter. You ever told you about that lady in the Rite Aid, right? No, maybe. I'm at the Rite Aid, like, you know, in
+
+[23:50] February, and like they had Easter crap out. She's like, Easter, ain't even Valentine's over yet. Not Valentine's Day, Valentine, like it's a time of day. Valentine. Ain't even Valentine's over yet. Anyway, I did fried chicken foisto. So whenever I say Easter now, I have to say foista, uh, and attempted to deep fry some bread and butter pickle chips to snack on.
+
+[24:10] Bread and butter, pickle chips. You like the bread and butter pickle? I know. Really? Do you like any pickles? Yeah, I like really hard ones. You don't like sweet pickles. Yeah. But not bread and buttered chips. No, no, no. Do you like, so what type of sweet pickle do you like? The thin, small, crunchy suckers? Small crunchy. What are your thoughts on the bread and butter pickle jack? Sorry, I got detracted. Bread and butter pickle? Like them? Hate them? Yeah, I like them. Yeah. Relish? You like relish? Nope. No? No? Really? What about tartar sauce? No. What? Really? What do you put on your on your fried, uh, on your, like, you know, New England style fried seafood place? I don't get that. You don't like fried seafood platters? Let me tell you something, people. If you go to like the average, you know, clam shack on in the ocean, like... I like lamb jacks. I like the food. Okay, but if you go to them, right, with the exception of like real East Coast lobster roll, which is decent, right? If you're given a choice, they always have some crap called like the
+
+[25:10] admiral platter or something like this, you know what I mean? Always get it fried. The broiled is a huge mistake. Huge. You don't like fried clams? Even with bellies on, the fresh ones? I don't like I don't like seafood. What like seafood? I mean, I like I don't like fried seafood or cooked seafood. I like a lobster roll. I don't like lobster. See, fried seafood for me, I'd rather do like lemon on it than tartar sauce. Really? Yeah, isn't that weird? Like just lemon? Yeah. Do you like mayonnaise on your french fries? Nope. Well, you don't like French fries, freak show. Okay. I used a flour buttermilk flour process, which is similar to the one I use for chicken, and found that the flour generally rubs off quite a bit from the pickles after the buttermilk dip, leaving them partially unbreaded.
+
+[26:03] Still delicious, but I think they'd be better with evenly adhered breading. Do you have a sure fire way to get good, even breading adhesion for fried pickles? Thank you for your help and I can't wait for my Sears all, Jeff Mays, Los Angeles, California, one of yours does. Los Angeles. So, um, here's the uh, here's the deal. So I cheat. So the old school, like low tech, the problem you're having is the high moisture content is creating like a lack of adhesion of the batter.
+
+[26:33] So you're getting some slough off probably right at the beginning. I don't know whether you padded the pickle trips really, really dry before you
+
+[26:40] started, before you did your 1st pre-dust, but I'll typically do that to
+
+[26:45] draw, because I've done a bunch of, I used to do a lot of fried pickles, you know, and I would dry them off a little bit.
+
+[26:53] If that's not enough, you might even want to try letting them sit on a rack for a little
+
+[26:56] while just to flash off some of their extra moisture because what you're most likely dealing with here is a moisture control problem. Now, because, you know, all I've ever learned about batter adhesion tells me that you want the surface to be, you know, tacky and dry when you start.
+
+[27:11] Now, of course, you know, going against that is the style that they do
+
+[27:14] here and the pot pies and thigh style of fried chicken where they literally take it out of the brine and throw it right into the flour. But, you know, I've never, I've never tested. Everything I've learned is said that in high moisture situations, there's adhesion problems and also problems when you're frying of what's called
+
+[27:28] blow off, where chunks of the batter will pop off during the cooking or slough off or not adhere properly to the food.
+
+[27:34] Okay. So if it's not adhering beforehand, there are a couple things you can do. You can add special. I'll do this, but you can add specialty starches to the mix. So, uh, like a batter bind or uh, there's another one that's uh, used that's actually not sold by a modern's pantry, not made by national stars, just made by the other corporation. its name slips my mind right now. But you can add that will, um, and they're usually, I think they use some form of oxidize starch because they're, uh, I think they're pre- I think they're pre-done oxidized starches are usually what they're using in the battery adhesion ones. But I don't really remember why. I just remember their oxidized starches. And those will increase adhesion dramatically. And so, you know, I was looking last night at some, at some microscope, uh, microscopy and also just cross-sectional uh, things of different uh, pre-dust containing either nothing control
+
+[28:30] flour as a pre-dust, uh, containing, um, uh, methylcellulose, uh, and containing um, oxidized starch. And the oxide starch, sure enough, were likes, wheat. They were awesome. in terms of adhesion. So you can try adding a modified product like that to it. Or you can do the really old-fashioned way. If you don't mind having a heavy batter coding on it, a lot of times for difficult things like okra, which tends to slip off a
+
+[28:55] lot, like okra, even though it's got hair on the, like fried okra does. I haven't had it, they don't think. Oh my god. Jack, what about fried okra? One of the few things I don't love, metal eat it. It a little slimy. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I not talking okra chopped up in a gumball. I'm talking fried whole okra pods. You had it? Not fried. I've had whole okra pods, but not fried. All right, listen. Slimy. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. When you're when you're like, okay, you need to come over. We need to make you some fried whole okra because they're not, they're only slimy when the stuff on the inside kind of escapes.
+
+[29:32] When it stays on the inside of its own pod, right, when you're frying it, it, I mean, it still is what it is, but it doesn't have the feeling of
+
+[29:41] sliminess, because the outside is like super crunchy, the fried, the fried okra on the
+
+[29:46] outside, and you want to, you want like a thick, crunchy breading layer on this. The outside and the inside is like melting and soft, but does not come off as slimy at all. And they're great. The trick with it is, is, again, do not cut them at all. Leave them whole and make sure when you're shopping for okra pods in the store, assuming that you don't have your own okra
+
+[30:08] plants. You want to, a lot of times, especially where I live, they prepackage the okra in like little styro packs, you want to feel the
+
+[30:17] okra pods because they start, at a certain point, the okra pods start getting woody on the outside, and then you can feel them. You can feel the ones that are tender and the ones that are less tender. And just stay away from the ones that are less tender because you're not going to be cooking them a long time, like in a gumbo or soup. You just going to be frying them really quickly, so you want them to cook really quickly. So make sure you're starting with tender okra pods, bread those things and fry them. And that is some delicious stuff. And I've never had, even I've had people who hate okra, and I've never had someone come back and say, you know what? Like, uh, crap on that, that's not delicious, because that stuff's inherently delicious. But back to what I was saying, surprisingly, you would think that okra would have good adhesion, but it doesn't because it doesn't pick up
+
+[30:58] pre-dust swell. Like the flour pre-dust that you put in a typical, I mean, everything depends on what kind of batter technology you're using. So there's people who do pre-dust and then in a liquid flour batter. I don't do that. I do pre-dust, into liquid, then into a solid again. typically what I do. But if you're, the predust does not adhere at all to okra. So what you do is you do a pre-dust, a marginal amount sticks, then you do your wet, then you do your
+
+[31:23] solid, and it picks up some, but still isn't coated. And then you do a quick rewet and then a crick quick solid again, at which point you have a nice, thick, thick batter coating. And if you don't mind having that thick of a coating, the double do on it always makes it stick to any damn thing. never going to get it. And that's what I do on, especially on products that have a high rate of meltouts, like mozzarella sticks. Do you like fried mozzarella sticks at least? Jesus. Jack, fried mozzarella sticks. Yes. Okay. Come on. What the hell is wrong with these people? Not you, Jack. just saved yourself with that one. Fried mozzarella sticks. Do you like, do you like grilling cheese, like queso para frier or halumi? Grilled? You had it? Really? I don't think I've had it. No, I know I've had it. don't have an opinion. You know, like grilled cheese, like grilled cheese delicious hot and it turns squeaky when it gets cold. I hate squeaky cheese. Yes, yes, yes. Well, that's why you got to eat it when it's hot. That why you eat it when it's hot. Eat it well, it's hot. Eat it well it's hot. So the, um, Anyhoo, so, uh, I would, I would use that. I would do that. So if you don't want to do the double dip, which is inherently going to get it, then the, the, you know, the next thing to do, uh, in terms of ease is a partial uh, pat down of them beforehand and
+
+[32:34] dehide, not your pet. Pat down and partial dehydration. Uh, not, not so that they lose their crunchiness, just so that they're a little bit, you know, dry, a little bit pellical formed on the outside. And then the next step up from that in technological difficulty is to add some modified starch to the
+
+[32:50] pre-dust or to use a modified starch, just the pre-dust. And one of those things should help you out. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Does that make sense? Yep. I love frying. Do you know that I have to I had to decommission my fryer. Did I tell you that? Did I say that in the air? Well, it wasn't a leak. Did I tell us on the air? Did I talk about this? I have to get around it. I have to get around. You only have, yeah, today is a short one. I don't, yeah, my God. Okay. Uh, question. I don't have who the question is from. I hate that Okay, hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack at all. I'm a big fan of the show. Finally caught up with all the back episodes a few weeks ago. Question number one. My wife and one of my daughters have a gluten intolerance after much gluten free. Baking experimentation. My wife has found the most success using recipes for baking mixes from the gluten-free on a shoestring
+
+[33:42] blog, HTTP, gluten-free on a shoestring.com, all-purpose gluten-free flour recipes forward slash. One of the keys for a palatable texture in baked goods is using these baked
+
+[33:54] good using these mixes is a super fine brown rice
+
+[33:58] flour and a super fine white rice flour. Buying the super fine version of either day's flowers is rather expensive. The best super fine rice we have found are from authentic foods. com. But a regular rice flour results in a gritty product. Yeah, regular rice flour kind of sucks. We have tried using both our crappy blender and our food processor to grind a regular version of these rice flowers to a finer consistency, but are not happy with the results. A vitamix is already at the top of my kitchen wish list is that going to be the best tool to use with some kind of mill be
+
+[34:30] better. That's Chip Smith. What's Chip Smith? the name of the man. Oh, hey, Chip Smith. I was like, I was like, I was like, that sounds awesome. Shout out, Jackson. Shout out to John Riper. Oh, yeah. Just because. Do you want to do it? Like, you want me to answer this question? You want to do the quick commercial so that we get our get our busyals paid? And then all right, let's do it. Why don't passes is the only phone in the United States that has its own USDA
+
+[34:56] inspected, red meat abattoir, or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir,
+
+[35:03] a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oakpastages.com. And we're back. Hey, Jack, I had a question for you. Do you know of any farm that has its own USDA inspected, a red meat abattoir? Yeah, they also happen to have one of the best voiceover talents in the game working there. No, like that guy owns that. He owns it. owns it. Will Harris. We have our own red meat abattoir. That guy is like, I would buy I would buy red meat from that man. Yeah, right? It's available in Whole Foods. They're the only 5 plus star rated poultry at Whole Foods. They don't have it at my Whole Foods. What whole foods do they have it at? I'll have to get back to you on that, but check. Because my son, Booker, the older one is obsessed with animal welfare ratings. That's awesome He's upset. So he's like, he, like, the whole, here's the mistake the Whole Foods made, right? So those of you that don't shop at Whole Foods. If you go to the Whole Foods, in their meat counters and in the cases on the side, not on processed goods, usually like salumi, like
+
+[36:24] liquertia and all that stuff that they carry, which one, we won't talk about that. But the on all of their kind of fresh meat goods, they put animal welfare ratings on it. The problem is this. They start at one, and then go to 5 plus with one being the lowest grade that Whole Foods accepts, but it's still, you know, from an animal welfare standpoint, better than nothing.
+
+[36:45] You know what I'm saying? So they, what, they made them, like the tactical error, I think,
+
+[36:49] is, and a lot of the stuff they have is ones, a lot of it. You know what I mean? Like the majority is ones. And, like, don't you think they should have, like, made it from like a one to like seven? Yeah, and then not, and then not bought one and 2 and being like, Whole Foods only buys three, four, five, 6, and
+
+[37:07] 7. yo. You know what I'm saying? Three will be the new one. Well, they work with it. We've done some cool coverage on this, actually. And they work with the producers to kind of get them from one to 5 plus. So it's like by bringing them on board, they're like, okay, you're good enough. You're a one, we can sell you and we're going to help you get to a 5 plus. Right. I mean, because, yeah, there's like, you know, there's different reasons to get into different aspects of, um, of, um, you know, sustainable and or small farming, right?
+
+[37:34] And one is that one is that you just don't like the way animals are treated in large farms,
+
+[37:40] right? Right? They don't like the way they're treated. don't like the way they're slaughtered. Regardless of taste, whether it tastes better or not, regardless of, uh, you know, whatever, you're willing to pay more to have an animal that has been kind of treated well.
+
+[37:54] And, uh, yeah, 5 plus is the highest, and I believe that means that not only is
+
+[37:59] it like animal centered, pasture center, but it lives its whole life on the one farm, right? And it's never taken off. And that's why they're probably the only people can do it because they never have to ship their animals off site. Right? He's like, I don't care anymore. No, sorry, somebody walked in. Oh, yeah. I think that's why, though. Anyway, all right, they're going to kick us off. Let me answer this question soon. Vitamix, I don't like grinding flour in a Vitamix. I'll tell you why. It's a huge mess and it like throws particles up in the inside and then when you open the thing, you're inhaling rice flour particles. I've done it. Food processors don't work as you say. I do not recommend. I don't know if you asked it. The only mill I've ever owned it, uh, like grinding mill is, uh, the KitchenAid makes a, um, a grain mill that you can attach to, um, to a
+
+[38:48] KitchenAid, and it grinds things, but I can't, I'd love to recommend
+
+[38:53] it. And I really want it to be awesome, but it's not. Like, it's just not. It's not, doesn't produce a very, very fine flour. It's extremely slow. It tends to heat things up. Um, and I have, I myself have never used a mill that I, uh, liked, especially if you're going to be grinding large quantities, uh, of something. I've also tried using coffee mills to do grinding with not too much success so far. I tried using, you know, those hand cranked, um, what's the Japanese name? I forget. Anyway, the one that we all have to do manual grinding. I tried to grind a bunch of bean flour in that. And that was a ruddy mess too. So, um, I'm sorry to say that, uh, you know, there are ones out there and I'm, but I hesitate to recommend any of them because I haven't used them. Go look for a high quality grain mill. I would say don't get the KitchenAid grain mill for this application. KitchenAid grain mill works great for, and of course, you don't care because you're doing gluten-free stuff, but like when I was doing all grain brewing to break
+
+[39:55] up, uh, to break up barley, it's great for coarser things, it's great. But like if you're doing, especially if you're going to do a lot of grains other than rice, anything that has a high oil content, the KitchenAid's going to seize up on you.
+
+[40:06] So I'll try to look in more and get more recommendations for you for the next time around. If anyone please wants to send me some, um, grain mill recommendations into at cooking issues on the Twitter. I will gladly pass them on. Not next week's show because next week I will be in, I will be flying to
+
+[40:26] France. I am going to visit the Carthusian monks who make one of my favorite beverages,
+
+[40:30] the Chartreuse. You're not going to be here next week? No, I'm going to be in France. But I'm not, but I'm not going to be, usually when I'm in, when I'm in another country. I can call in and say something, but the, I'll be on a plane. And I think I'll be on a plane. I have to look up where I am because unfortunately, my travel both times is on a Tuesday. So if I can do it next week, I will call in because I don't want to miss 2 weeks. You know what I'm saying? Um, but I had one more thing on grain before. Oh, for inexpensive supply of very fine grain rice flour, go to Asian markets. Don't go to your standard, you know, uh, you know, Western supermarket. You can get really, really inexpensive, extremely fine-grained rice flowers at Asian supermarkets. So if you live anywhere near one. Um, you can go get it and you can get, I mean, obviously they sell what's called glutenous rice flour. It doesn't really have gluten in it because it's rice flour, and they sell various grades and types of rice flowers, along with many other
+
+[41:27] gluten-free, like strange flowers, like yam flowers and whatnot. And they're dirt cheap. They're on the level of price of AP flour. But I do think that, you know, you should look into getting a mill of your own. I just don't happen to have a decent recipe. So, uh, I will answer your next question, uh, the next time we are on, and it's an interesting one, Styles, I want you to think about this. I'll read the question, but then since we don't have the time, I will not answer it. I'm a big fan of pasta Putinesca, you like that? Even though it has a name that you don't like or do you? But you don't like the name. No, you don't like the name. Nastas doesn't like names like that. I usually make more than what I will eat at one meal because I like having it the next day as cold pasta. You like cold pasta? at all? What about like American pasta salad? Even though it's got mayonnaise on it? All right. Jack, you don't like the pasta salad because it's got the mayonnaise. mayonnaise, right? I do like cold pasta, though. What about like, what about, how do you guys feel about like cold sesame noodles? Those things are delicious. Oh yeah, delicious. Stas? No, no. She's like, no, no. She like, she's it's not the vegan face. It's like the head pressed as far back into her neck as possible, head rapidly shaking back and forth. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Something I've noticed about eating it the next day when it is cold or at room temperature, I need to add salt. What's the deal? Is the colder temperature changing how I perceive the flavor's that much? Thanks. Well, that is an interesting, and I think more complicated than you would think, um, question. So we'll get to it next time, but the hints are that your perception of all flavors, most
+
+[42:58] flavors change with temperature, how they relate to each other change with temperature, but also the food itself might be changing due to absorption of absorption of
+
+[43:08] salt into the pasta over the course of the night. So we'll talk about these various effects the next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes stored by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. I'm Grace Bonnie of After the Jump, and you're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] And we're back. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave All, your host of Cookies is coming to the live, but not from Roberta's, Jack. Jackie, there? I'm here. Jack is in Roberta's pizzeria hanging out at the radio station. Unfortunately, I have to call in, but I didn't want to miss again. Nastash is also calling in. Hey, stars. Hey how are you? All right, where are you? You're in Midtown somewhere over there in the kitchen. The lair of... The Nastasia tried moving downtown, and she couldn't handle the downtown air and she can't basically survive anywhere other than in Hell's Kitchen. pretty much true to us. Very true. Yeah, yeah. How are you doing? How am I drinking you? Well, I'm not so eh, meh, meh. Nah, nah. I'll be all right. Uh, but, uh, yeah, next time we'll do it in the, in the, in the radio, in the radio show. It's been a crazy couple of weeks. The 1st 2 weeks, I was like literally flying on Tuesday and Tuesday. And so, you know, we couldn't do the radio show. Uh, and then uh, the week after that, last week, I was uh, doing foie gras, which we can talk about, uh, I was shooting a foie gras thing for vice. We were talking about the, um, foie gras band in California that uh, was passed a long time ago, but just went into uh,
+
+[1:46] effect about a year and a half ago. And so they were doing a, uh, kind of a documentary on, uh, government intervention in food, in foodstuffs, uh, focus mainly on, well, focus 100% on the, on the foie gras thing. But I actually got to visit when I was in France. I ate a foie gras farm where they were doing the gavage on geese. Yeah? saw the force feeding. The lady would not attempt to force feed me. She would not asked. I specifically said, hey, can you stick that tube down my throat and do it? She's like, no, no, she wouldn't do it. Can you believe that stuff? You would have done it. You totally would have shoved that tube down my throat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but anyway, uh, anyone out there with a question? Call your questions 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128, which is exactly what I just did. I just called my question in 271. I can't remember. I can't remember the number. It's been so damn long since we've done it. But anyway, we could not miss another week. It's been too, too long. So let me get to some of the questions that we had written in for last week. Brandenburg wrote in on vacuum. Maybe later we could talk about foie gras. You want to talk about foie gras later on? Sure. Anything else? Anything else been happening? Anything good? Anything bad? Um, no, nothing, nothing we should talk about on the radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not meant to sound ominous people. No, it's, uh, Brandon Bird wrote in, not like Brandon Burn Arena. Brandon Bird, uh, wrote in uh, about vacuum, uh, vacuum machines, uh, searing, uh, and jack. You might want to take note. I'll tell you the last thing he wrote. He said, please ask Jack to play Seltzer by Bluto. It's one of my favorites. Someone who actually likes the seltzer song, Jack. Wow, you're going to have to give it to me. I don't have the master Bluto copy. No? Oh, yeah, that's right. You played it off my phone that time, right? Yeah, we gotta get that in the rotation. Yeah. Wow. The 1st real Pluto... First real Pluto super fan. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, you know, the whole series of that song is that, and I don't have that problem anymore
+
+[3:43] because this is why, like, the song is no longer current. I wrote those lyrics along with our band in like 19
+
+[3:50] 90 or something, uh, 90, uh, man, 90, no, like 91, 92, something like that. And so, uh, the deal was back then that, you know, you had to buy your seltzer in bottles and then you have the bottle that's left in the fridge. I don't know if he, look, I'm sure many, many people who listen here probably drink seltzer, right? I mean, that's probably fair that a lot of us drink bubbly water, because, you know, if you like me, you probably like bubbly water, except my mom doesn't. My mom doesn't like bubbly water. But anyways, point being that back in the day, for those of you that are old enough to not have a soda stream or carbonation unit, you had to buy bottles of seltzer. And the problem always was is that you had, and Jack, do you like seltzer? Of course. Yeah. Stas, I know you like seltzer. You buy it in what? How many liters bottle do you buy then? Liter. One liter. Why don't you buy a 2 liter bottle of seltzer? It goes pet. Yep. Yeah, because it goes freaking flat. Unless I know I'm going to make a lot of so much worse than flat soda. So you can buy a 2 liter bottle of soda and drink it over the course of like a day and a half or something like this and you're all right. But a seltzer, even though you drink vastly more seltzer, then you drink soda, you always buy it in one liter bottles, and that's because it
+
+[5:02] just tastes horrible when it goes when it goes flat. So the whole song is crafted around this idea. And I remember, like, I would buy cases of seltzer, and then someone would come over, and they're like, can I have some? I just want a little bit, and I would be always pissed because as soon as I cracked that bottle, that bottle's ruined. You know, it's over. You know what I mean? It's like, it's done. And so, uh, yeah, so that song was basically about that, the whole phenomenon of, of, uh,
+
+[5:24] cell sort of going to crap in your fridge. David, if this all goes well, can we host the Pluto reunion concert? I have to find all the... I mean, I know I know where I know where 2 out of the 3 other folks in Pluto are. Uh, one of them is still in New Haven. Uh, one of them is uh, a lawyer here and uh, I've got to find a 3rd person. He was a classics student at the time. And for all I know, he's a classics professor now, he can find him. Well, if the listener demand goes up enough, we might just have to make it happen. Yeah, yeah. Play Selfser Live. Be awesome. Um, uh, and that was, that was just our one food related song. Actually, we had another song with a slightly food related thing called a weekend at Count
+
+[6:08] Sporkula's, because sports are awesome, as everyone knows. Anyway, they're actually not awesome. Like you love, like sports are one of those things where everyone loves the idea of the sport, but the sport itself is always disappointing. You notice that? Yeah, yeah. Kind of like gin and tonics where like the idea is. So awesome, but most doesn't suck. Someone's gonna come up with a good sport someday. Anyways, um, back to uh, Brandenburg's question. Thanks so much for your hard work over the years on the show. I've been a reader of the blog for a while, but only recently took it upon myself to listen to the podcast. I had no idea what I've been missing because that's like I do. I had to listen to every damn podcast. Like it's even worse. she can't even, although she does try to zone out. It's like much more difficult when you're actually sitting next to me. Am I rights does? That's very true. Yeah. I managed to listen to your 1st 100 episodes over the past couple of months, which has some dedication right there. That is some dedication. Well, going on long walks with my dog and it's been tremendously rewarding and entertaining experience. I've learned more than I'd ever imagined from your show, so please keep up the good work. I've got a few questions for you guys. I recently acquired a chamber vacuum sealer, a VACMaster VP 112, which, by the way, is one of the machines like the lower cost machines. A lot of people ask me about. They have, I've, we've had stuff. How many people have asked me about that a lot, right? But I haven't used it, so I can't, you know, I can't, I can't comment. anyway. And the 1st thing I did was buy some fruit and some booze to experiment with vacuum infusion. Good, good man. I was extremely happy with the results, but was surprised by how much flavor from the fruit was transferred into the surplus liquor in the bag.
+
+[7:31] I've done rapid infusions in an easy canister, you know, the whipped cream canisters, but the results in
+
+[7:36] the chamber vac seem to work comparably well to the EC infusions, though I didn't do a controlled test. Have you done any experiments to see how these 2 techniques compared to each other in terms of flavor extraction? Do either offer advantages if the other lacks? Have you ever tried doing a pressure infusion in an ISI and then immediately transferring to a chamber of Act to get further extraction? All right, so let's handle that one first. So they are a little bit different. Uh, and, you know, come November time, when my book comes out, I've written like extremely long winded, uh, uh, you know, um, chapter on the difference between between the 2 of them, but you can get comparative comparable
+
+[8:13] results. In fact, I came up with the pressure infusion idea as a result of thinking about the mechanics of vacuum infusion. Here is the difference. When you're using a vacuum machine to infuse. You're putting a fruit or whatever into your booze, you're sucking a
+
+[8:30] vacuum, and the infusion hasn't started happening yet, right? What you're doing is sucking the air out of the fruit. So the fruit's got all these air holes in it, you suck the air out, right? But no infusion has happened. You might be now, at some point, you're boiling probably, unless it's really cold, you're boiling some liquid out from the fruit onto the surface.
+
+[8:47] So you're getting probably some transfer of literal fruit juice into the liquor at that
+
+[8:52] point, like right at the get go, right? But you're not infusing anything into the fruit yet. All of a sudden, you let the air back in and wham, the air pressure comes in, obviously, it hits liquid, liquid is incompressible, so the liquid gets forced into what used to be air holes in the fruit, and now you have liquid booze inside your fruit, right?
+
+[9:13] So now you have fruit that has some booze in it. Now, maybe some flavor in the liquor at this point, probably not that much. If you suck a 2nd vacuum, You reboil that liquid out of the fruit, and now you have both a fruit that's infused and a liquor that's infused, right? And yes, this is similar to what you get in, uh, in an easy, but the issue is, is that the pressure differential in a vacuum machine is only ever about £15 per square inch, whereas the pressure that you can use to force things in, and actually increase the rate of, uh, of diffusion and the rate of things moving around is much higher
+
+[9:49] in, in an easy bottle, right? And it, what I've noted is that the higher the pressure, when I increase the
+
+[9:57] pressure in an easy, the higher the pressure, the kind of more rapid the effects of infusion are.
+
+[10:01] So you're getting a more rapid effect. So, I would say that the EC is a lot more flexible because you have a wider pressure range you
+
+[10:09] could work on. And it's also easier to do longer term things in an AC because you can keep it under pressure for a long time. And also, you can, I would guess that you can do multiple easy things without losing as many volatiles as you would if you were sucking a constant vacuum on things, which can cause loss of
+
+[10:27] volatile through distillation. So, I think there's different, but they can be used, uh, they can be used similarly. Also, AC, you can do warm, whereas a vacuum, you can't. So you can speed infusions by doing things warm or even hot. And another thing that, I mean, the main disadvantage of the EC. Right? There's two. The 2 main disadvantages of the ECR. One, you're limited in volume. You can only do what your canister will hold, right? That's the main one. And the 2nd one, is you have to spend money every time you do the infusion, because you have to buy the cartridges. So those are the 2 main disadvantages. The main disadvantage. For instance, if you're getting a comparable result in your EC to your vacuum, I would say, and you want more infusion, I would
+
+[11:10] say add an extra cartridge. Bang, you're going to get more infusion. I normally do all of my infusions with 2 cartridges, all of them. Sometimes I do 3 but they don't let me say that. And then, uh, uh, you know, after that, I can also, instead of letting it
+
+[11:26] go one, two, 2 minutes. I can let it go three, four, 5 minutes and really ramp up the, the, uh, the infusion. The reason I don't is most of the time when I'm doing a rapid infusion, I'm doing it specifically for the effect that it has, which means that what the rapid infusion
+
+[11:42] does, as opposed to traditional infusion, is it, uh, it can pull out flavors, uh, in in different ways. It was hard to explain. So, for instance, in a hot pepper. Uh, you have the flavor of the pepper and then you have the heat from the pepper. In a long term infusion, you get a lot of the heat and the heat, a lot of times can drown out the flavor of the pepper, right? In a shorter infusion time, you get more kind of equal levels of heat and
+
+[12:08] pepper flavor, right? So now I can do one of 2 things with the rapid infusion now. I can either let the rapid infusion go longer, and then it's more like a traditional infusion, which means it's going to have more heat in it, right? as opposed to pepper flavor. So the heat will rise in relation to the pepper flavor, or I could just add a ridiculous amount of pepper and keep the time the same. And that's in general what I do. So when I'm trying to do rapid infusions, I'm usually trying to take advantage of some sort of
+
+[12:37] differential infusion that happens over short time scales. And so instead of increasing the time, I increase the amount of ingredient that I'm infusing. So when you're tasting 2 things, you shouldn't just taste for the strength of the overall infusion, right, which can depend on a number of variables, but you should taste on the balance of
+
+[12:56] the infusion as well. But vacuum and EC are doing somewhat similar if turned on their head kind of
+
+[13:03] thing. That makes that makes sense, does? Yeah, it does. All right. Now, I have another question on vacuum ceiling, garlic, and botulism. This is a good one because we've gotten this one a couple times too. I usually do low temp sous vide cooking for immediate service at home, but since I got a chamber
+
+[13:18] vac. I wanted to do cook chill freeze cooking for economy and deliciousness and time saving, my friend, time saving. When my chamber vac arrived, I stocked up on chicken breasts that were on
+
+[13:28] sale and cooked them at low temp at 62 for one hour with garlic, olive oil, and some
+
+[13:33] weights. That's herbs that I like to pronounce it oids. Uh, that's my standard technique for uh, cook serve low temp chicken. I let them rest for 20 minutes at room temp and submersion in cold tap water for 20 and then show them a nice water for 30 before moving to the freezer. Man, somebody's really like red up on their fogus. So that's the full gouseau chilling technique, by the way. So for those of you that aren't like a hip to cooling curves on low temp work. Uh, you know, you and I thought this was a load of horse crap. But, uh, you know, years ago when uh, Bruno Gousseau, who's uh, the, you know, the chief, one of the chief guys at uh, cuisine solutions
+
+[14:06] there and kind of the, you know, one of the uh, grandfathers of uh, low temp
+
+[14:11] cooking. You know, he told me that you don't want to chill meat incredibly quickly when it comes out of the bath, because you want it to reabsorb the liquids, uh, more,
+
+[14:19] that you want it to chill slowly because if it chills slowly, it reabsorbs more of the cooking liquids that it exudes as it, uh, as it, you know, as it cooks, it exudes
+
+[14:28] liquids, if it cools more slowly, then it will put it back in. So he has this ramped cooling thing and Mills and I were like, ah, it's crap. It's this crap. And then we ran the test and it turns out to work. But anyway, so you've been doing your homework on the cooling. But anyway, it was only a few days later that I realized that there's a botulism risk cooking with garlic
+
+[14:45] in a vacuum. I'm reasonably sure that these are safety, but appreciate any clarification you could offer on the relationship between botulism,
+
+[14:51] temperature, and vacuum level. Okay. Uh, I'm going to say this, before I get into a long winded explanation, uh, so that someone in my life lose track of what I'm saying, it's fine. It's just not a problem. The problem with botulism will not grow in the freezer. Botulism will not grow at 60 degrees uh Celsius, right? So when you're cooking, the problem with botulism is that botulism isn't, botulism isn't destroyed by either freezing or by
+
+[15:25] cooking at normal temperatures, right? So it, it, it, well, you know, you can kill the vegetable, uh,
+
+[15:33] be more clear. There's 2 things that happen. There's vegetative cells, active bacteria. And then the reason that brotchulism is such a tricky little weasel to work with is that it also forms spores. So whenever you start killing off botulism cells. botulus and bacteria rather. Whenever you start killing off botulus and bacteria. Some of them turn into spores. And those spores are extremely resistant to being destroyed by heat,
+
+[15:59] have to pressure cook to get rid of them. And that's why when you pressure cook something, all of a sudden it's shelf stable, right? Okay. So, and you're not going to do that. So the issue is, is that as long as you heat it, right? You're not causing anything dangerous because you're cooking and destroying vegetative cells. And as long as you uh, cool it and then keep it frozen, um, and you did
+
+[16:24] it a reasonable amount of time, there's no way for those spores to red germinate into vegetative cells, then go from that stage to reproducing and producing uh, toxin,
+
+[16:34] right? So long and short of it is, you're okay. The dangerous, the really dangerous thing, would be to cook garlic. And the reason why everyone picks on garlic is because people a lot of times will throw garlic into
+
+[16:49] oil. Garlic has a fairly high water activity, and it comes from the soil. So it's, you know, and botulism is ubiquitous means it's everywhere, but a lot of times in the soil, you throw it into oil, the oil environment seals it off from oxygen, you have botulism growing on the garlic, and, you know, you're done.
+
+[17:05] Well, you could be done. That's why that's why it's always garlic and botulism because it's common. You want to do it. It doesn't look dangerous, et cetera, et cetera. So as long as you're doing this, what you're saying, you're fine. Now, if you were to uh, store those suckers at room temperature, well, you could get hosed. You know what I mean? That's incredibly dangerous, but you can store, there's, there's nothing inherently dangerous about garlic in oil as long as you're keeping everything at safe, uh, holding
+
+[17:35] storage temperatures. Make sense stuff? Yep. Okay. Let me see. And final question. I know that you like to sear low temp meats in a scorching scary hot pan. I heard you mention the standard consumer range won't get quite hot enough to produce the level of sear that you prefer. true. Until my sears all, uh, tell my sears all arrives. I'm left searing a cast iron pan over either my gas range or my gas
+
+[17:59] grill at Weber Genesis E 330, which I haven't used that one. Today I tried searing ribeyes, which is always a good call. I love a rib eye. a good steak. Then I brush with clarified butter and a cast iron pan that I preheated on the grill for 20 minutes. My infrared gun style thermometer indicated the pan was 820 Fahrenheit when I put the steaks in. Immediately they smoked up like a bastard. It was intense. What lipid, if any, do you coat your meat steaks with before Siri, and you have a preferred temperature range that you aim for. Thanks for the show and best witches, Brandon Bird. Okay, yeah, it's kind of smoke like a bastard. This is why like I, you know, like my wife, uh, gets angry sometimes, like when,
+
+[18:34] I, I, I'm not even going to, again. At one time, I bought a, uh, I think I told us on a show once. I tell us one of the show once where she was like, yeah, you did. Yeah. I'll do it really quickly. It was her birthday and I wanted to make some really good steaks. So I bought a charcoal, uh, like a mini charcoal hibachi, which does. Did I ever end up giving that to you or is that one too burnt out? No, I think you... No, yeah, yeah, I have it. Yes, yeah. Or do I, maybe that's a different one. You've got the little Joe that we got for the school. We tried to do the same thing at the school. Remember? Right. And everyone was all pissy about the smoke. Because everyone gets so pissy about smoke. It's like everyone wants to be all like, you know, tough and like, as soon as there's a little bit of smoke, people get all whiny. You know what I mean? It's so ridiculous. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't think they're going to be started. I mean, look, I under, look, I'm a firm believer in like air quality in general, and, you know, some issues with, uh, I remember, I've talked about it a bunch of times, like that preliminary research years ago on, uh, cooking fumes, uh, from
+
+[19:32] walks and women in China and increase, uh, levels of cancer. But, um, whatever. I'm not talking about that. I don't know why everyone, as soon as there's any smoke, people are like, it's smoky. It's smoky in the kitchen. How many times have you ever got in your lifestyle? So many, but then the fire, the fire or whatever thing goes off, you know? Yeah, they're doing more chaos. She's like, why does everyone get so worried? And then once the fire thing goes off, People, like, crazy, set off the fire alarm. Oh, you set off the smoke a lot. And he says he can cook. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Well, it was so freaking irritating. I was like, this is why your food tastes bad because you're not willing to set off the damn smoke detector when you're
+
+[20:12] cooking something. You know what I mean? see, I would rather take the hit. and set off the smoke detector and have the steak taste good. Excuse me, that's where my priorities are, right? My priorities aren't with the, look, okay, okay, backpail a little bit. You can't piss off the people that are going to eat so much that they're not going to enjoy the food because then you're shooting yourself in the foot. It's all about the enjoyment of the food. But I just get so irritated that people can't, people can't just, I don't know, you know what I mean? It just, you know, it's a constant source of irritation. Jack, what do you think about this? I'm still tripped up on spores and that Nastasia didn't freak out when you said. Wait, what happened? Oh, spoon. Yeah, and Sasha hates a sport. Anyway, uh, so here's my thing. Yes, it's going to smoke like a bastard. That's just a fact of life. Uh, you can't really measure the surface of your pan and get an accurate
+
+[21:04] uh, temperature of what's going to happen because the temperature of the pan will probably drop fairly quickly once you put the meat on
+
+[21:09] it. As for, but it's good. good, it's good. I mean, mine usually are rocking somewhere around uh, 650 or higher. See, depends. Like cast iron at like 700 is thin. You're going to get more char out of like a giant stone rock at 800. I mean, it all depends on how fast it can, it can deliver this stuff. So cast iron. I don't know, that should be fine. In other words, like that temperature should be fine, but it's going to smoke, and you're going to need more oil than you think. What I typically do, I typically use olive oil, by the way. And what I will do is I'll put the pan on. I get it hot. I'll pour oil literally into the pan. It will immediately start smoking. Uh, and you just want to be careful because it might ignite here. Carefully, put the steak into the oil. The reason is the pre-cooked steak, it doesn't conform to the surface of a pan, like a raw one does. So if you just brush with oil, you're liable to have blonde spots, whereas if you had like a good, you know, 8th inch or something in the bottom of your pan, you'll hit all of the points and you'll brown all the way across the thing.
+
+[22:12] But just be aware, we'll catch on fire. There will be flame and there will be smoke. And you should just tell whoever's looking at you and calling you incompetent to shut the hell up and sit down and get ready to eat the steak.
+
+[22:22] That's just my feeling. You know what I mean? Yep. All right. take a quick break. Oh, you take a break? All right, we're going take a quick break. be right back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[22:39] So, you get... Why do passes is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir,
+
+[22:54] a slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir, a
+
+[22:59] slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality, meat and poultry, from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years, a full circle
+
+[23:14] return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, whiteoakpastages.com. Oh, yeah. Abattoir. The way that man says abattoir makes me want to go get something slaughtered. You know what I'm saying? Seriously, guy's awesome. A lot old-fashioned. Love that guy. All right. David Wright saying about P.I.D. controllers. So for those of you, I don't know, maybe this is the 1st time you've tuned in or whatever. PID is, uh, is the type of controller, stands for, I think, a proportional, uh, integrative and uh, derivative, I think, or something like this, uh, controller that's used to do all of the uh, immersion circulators, and because what they do is instead of the temperature, like, going
+
+[24:04] up and then uh, overshooting the mark, like a standard thermostat, and then going down and up,
+
+[24:08] but porpoising back and forth, they, like, ramp up and then they stay solid on on the, uh, they stay solid on the temperature that you want. That PID controller. And that's what we all use for our immersion circulators. Come, mistake people do is they think they want to add like a PID controller to things like a deep fryer, which you don't.
+
+[24:25] The reason is a deep fryer, you want to go as fast as possible. It's all about recovery time. PIDs aren't about recovery time. They're about accuracy. So always remember when you ask for PED, make sure that you actually want one that said, you often want one. Okay, uh, 2 Danish questions. And I always have this problem. You think Dana is a man or a woman? Ooh, man. Why? Oh, PID. I feel like it's mostly men's best, but you know what? Like, you're probably freaking right, but it just pisses me off so much. This goes back to that article that that lady wrote years ago. Were you working with me or Mindy, Mindy was working with me. Were you working with me when the times, right, in that article, saying about like technology in the kitchens, like about boys and their toys? I was like, it's ridiculous. It's so great. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, why is it, why is it that, why is it associated with men? It doesn't, you know, you know, uh, whatever. Uh, I want to build an electric kettle for brewing beer. a brew in a bag style, brew in a bag. I think brewing a bag came out after I had stopped my home brewing, but
+
+[25:27] fundamentally what you do is you put the, I guess you put the, you put your grains in a fat ass sack, as
+
+[25:33] Ludicrous would say, and then put it into the kettle that you're eventually going to use, and then you can pull it out instead of having to have multiple containers to do
+
+[25:40] it in. Yes, here it says, brewing bag eliminates the traditional 3 vessel system and uses the kettle as the mash ton and boil kettle.
+
+[25:46] Uh, you like ludicrous stars or no? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's pretty funny. I don't like, some of us does good. So, like, some of the stuff, I think, is really good. And then some of the stuff, when it's too, I don't know. don't know. don't know. I like it when he's got more of a sense of humor about himself. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm going to use an old keg as the kettle, and I'd like to use a 240 volt 5,500 watt heater element to heat up to 10 gallons of water. And by the way, Dana, I didn't have the time to do the calculations, but I'm sure you already had. There's plenty of Google calculators out there where you can calculate the, um,
+
+[26:19] the heating rate, Uh, you know, you assume a certain efficiency for the heater, but you can calculate the heating rate uh, for a particular volume of water with a particular watt edge of heater. So I'm presuming that you've already checked that, but that sounds good. Uh, I'd also like to use a PID controller so I can accurately hold the water at mash temp for 90 minutes, then raise it to mash out temps, mash
+
+[26:40] out, so when you're mashing, uh, when you make a beer, you take the grain, uh, the grain has, uh, been, uh,
+
+[26:47] the barley has been, uh, malted. The malting means that it started to germinate. The enzymes are there, therefore, to break the carbohydrate in the barley down to sugar, right?
+
+[26:56] And then, uh, so, you know, that's, that's how that works. But you have, what you have to do is eventually raise the temperature enough to kill the
+
+[27:05] enzymes and killing the enzymes off, it's called mashing out so that you don't necessarily
+
+[27:10] get, at least that's my memory. It's been a million year since I've had to do this stuff. So anyway, back to the question. See, then boiled in. That was a long way around my actual question, so I've been listening to Dave a bit too much. Yeah, so again, he's saying his question, we're presuming it's a he is so long that he's been listening to me because I do the same thing fair. I know there's a lot of info in the forms about electric brewing, but all the info seems to assume that the reader possesses some electrical
+
+[27:38] knowledge, of which I have little, not none, but little. So I assume it goes like this. Well, then he has a like a directional kind of diagram here, which I'm not going to go into. I just going to tell you the right way to do it. So a heating element, it involves a heating element. The PID controller, the solid state relay, and the plug into an outlet, right? Now, here's the issue. You're using a 240 volt thing. So you're going to want to be careful. 110 is not inherently safe, but it's more safe than 220 or
+
+[28:10] 240 or wherever you want to call it. So you just want to be a little bit careful when you're using voltages like that. Uh, especially because uh, you're going to be switching the, you're going to be switching
+
+[28:20] the, that kind of high voltage. So it's gonna be present near where you're working. Heaters are dumb elements, right? So all the heater wants to be have happen is to get plugged directly into a wall, right? And so what you want to think about it is, is that the PID controller and a solid state relay, all they are is a switch that is going between the
+
+[28:41] wall current and the heater. So here's how it works. First of all, make sure you have a PID controller that can run off the 240. Otherwise, if you need to, you can run off 2 circuits. You can run the PID off of a wall socket and you can run the heater off of a 240, but it's not necessary. Many PID controllers can handle the direct 220 slash 240. Most of them run at 2 at like 120 to 240 and between 50 and 60 cycles. So you could take it to Europe if you need to. Anyways, but just read the specs on it. So then you take an extension cord. Now, remember, this is not the advice of a trained electrician. Electrocute yourself at your own peril. This is just how it works. So then you take the, um, and depending on how you use it. So for instance, in a normal 110 line, you have a power, and then you have a return, and the power has got the full 110 on it, right? 125, whatever you want to call it, 120, wiggling up and down, AC, alternating current. And then the other line is basically dead. It's a return that you send the power back to ground onto the circuit thing. So you could touch on an AC, regular 110 AC line,
+
+[29:48] 120. You could touch the neutral and, you know, lick your, don't do this. Lick your finger, touch the neutral and touch something and you won't get shot, right? Now, standard household to 20, that's not the case. Both lines will be hot all the time, but they'll be going opposite of each other, right? So you have 110 on, or 120, let's say, on each line, but
+
+[30:11] you can remember AC is a wave that goes up and down. So they go opposite each other. So it goes all the way up to you get 120 plus 120 to 40. So there's no safe. There's no safe line, right? So you're going to have to do it a little bit differently than you would with a 110 line, but it's fundamentally the same. So you need to apply power to your PID controller. Then the PID controller has, uh, let's say, one, two, maybe this three, four, say, has
+
+[30:41] these. It has power, right? Which is going to be your AC power lines that you got to attach to it from the plug from the wall. It's then going to have a thermocouple input, right? Which has 2 connectors on it. Make sure you hook it up because especially if you're using a K-type thermocouple, it's very easy to reverse them. Um, because the, the red one, now I always get messed up. I have to remember it, the red one, which you think is positive is actually the negative, but I have to, I have to go and look at it again. I'm pretty sure that's true. Uh, and then you have, uh, usually a relay, well, usually there's a small solid state relay in the PID controller itself, but that relay is not intended to handle the power of switching something
+
+[31:22] big like a 5000 watt heater, right? So that's why you need, sometimes it just says it puts 5 volts out or whatever, which is fine, or 12 or whatever. fine. Uh, that's why you need the solid state relay. Now, the reason you want a solid state relay and not a regular relay is I hate that clicking, 1st of all, like they're, they're fairly cheap now. And the real relays, they sit there and they click. And also, uh, the real relay, especially a big power
+
+[31:49] relay like that, doesn't like to be turned off and on very rapidly, where the solid state relay, there's no actual moving
+
+[31:55] parts, it doesn't matter. It can turn off and on as much as it wants. So like your PID controller, if it's sitting there pulsing the heater off and on, it's not going to bother. not going to hear a click, it's not going to have a mechanical issues. That's why a solid state relay. So what you do is, is you have the power, the wall, power goes to your, uh, wallpower goes to your PID controller. Your thermocouple goes to your PID controller. One wire, the in and the out, go to the low voltage side of your solid state relay. And then on the other side of your solid state relay, you have, um, one side of power from the wall going to one side of the heater. And then on the other side of the heater coming out of it, you have it go to, one of the, the output of the solid state relay. And then the input of the high voltage side of the solid state relay then goes, uh, to, uh,
+
+[32:51] to the wall. Sminging sense to us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's happening is that you're putting power to the PID controller. The PID controller is sending a low voltage signal to the solid state relay. And the solid state relay is in effect like just flipping a switch that is opening and closing a circuit between one of the 2 wires in the high voltage circuit that is the heater.
+
+[33:17] See what I'm saying? Does that make more sense a little bit? It's very hard to explain on the radio. Very easy with a picture. Very hard to explain on the radio. It used to draw a picture and then tweet it or something. Yeah, I could do that. Are there any safety features you would want to add, since I have friends that would like me to build one for them? So I want to make sure it's completely safe, you know, as and not burn their houses down. Yeah, just make sure that you, uh, let me ask. I have to have an architect in the room with me. Do they have 240 volt GFI? Uh, which I would look. I would make sure that you have a GFI socket. I've never worked with 240 uh with PID. So, I mean, all my knowledge is on 120 and 120 I just make sure everything's in GFI. I put fuses and everything and just make sure you're totally safe. But I will, uh, I will, I will draw a picture and tweet it, Styles. You have a good, you have a good, uh, good idea there. Uh, any conclusion, uh, all year. Italian and Bob is a podcast. So it's good. Dana says it, give me a big idea on the podcast. I've listened to the entire back catalog twice. Keep them good working. Wow. I can imagine that. No I can't. What's up? But I can't imagine that. No, no me neither. Nick writes in about Doritos. Hey, Nastasia, Dave and Jack. I like making popcorn as a snack. That's a good statement right there, right? I mean, I like popcorn as a snack. You guys? It the best. Yeah, popcorn, good product. I like making popcorn at a snack. And lately I've been playing around with flavorings. I'm trying to recreate the flavor of zesty cheese Doritos available in Canada because they are delicious. This is also a good reason to do something. I've never had a zesty cheese Dorito. But, you know, because it's Canadian. Uh, you know, um, I got a picture of it here from Nick, and they have to write it in French as well. And zesty cheese and French sounds terrible. Fromage Mildon, like mordant. That doesn't sound delicious. Why are there so many flavors of Doritos now? Oh, that's an interesting question. So, like, um, one of the things, uh, one of the reasons why you have so many flavors, is any company that's looking, any company that has like a product, let's say Doritos, right?
+
+[35:29] And there's a bunch of other snacks out there that you can go for, right? How do they make sure that you buy Doritos? Well, they can put 8000000000 different flavors of Doritos in there so that just more of the stuff that you see is Dorito, right? And plus you already like Doritos. And so if you see some other snack that you don't know, and then Doritos, which you're apt to like anyway, you look
+
+[35:48] at and you're like, oh, Zefty cheese, that's in Dorito. I would try that. See what I mean? Mm. Yeah. And so, like, that's like over the past, you know, I don't know how many years, like, like, that's one of the big, that's why you see like 8000000000 different new Oreos out there too. is because, like, you know, they're, they're, they're leveraging on the Dorito name, creating all these line
+
+[36:06] extensions to just kind of, like, you know, increase the Dorito profile across the board. Doesn't mean that they don't love the original Dorito. You know what I mean? Yep. Anyway, uh, back to Nick's question. Um, I adapted the ingredient list to what I had available at home, mixed it in a spice grinder and got something that tasted pretty good, but not much like Doritos. I use nutritional yeast, cheap and provide a chees-ish, cheese-ish flavor, salt, onion powder, and garlic powder,
+
+[36:39] which by the way, I did set onion powder and garlic powder. I know that people like it. I hate it. Styles, what do you think about it? I don't make it at all. Jack, you really use onion powder, garlic powder. No, not a fan. I used to like garlic powder on pizza. I might have had this discussion on the radio before, but I don't mind it in like that, the kind of like burnt flavor that like garlic bagels have, but I don't even like garlic bagels, but I like that flavor in
+
+[37:00] an everything bagel. Like, that's the only time I like that flavor, it's presence in everything bagel. I used to put it on pizza, garlic powder when I was younger. Yeah, but like not like last week. We're talking like really years ago, right? A 1000000 years ago. before I knew anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much, how much would I, like, next week when we're back, when I, we're all together at the, at the show, should I bring a thing of garlic powder in and start sprinkling it over the pizza and see what they say,
+
+[37:25] Roberta's? I dare you. That would be sweet, right? Or what's worse, like garlic salt. I bring garlic salt. A big container of garlic salt, and it starts shaking that stuff on its name, be
+
+[37:36] like, what, what? Just put it on all the tables at Roberta's and see how the management responds. Holy shit. Just don't say anything about it. Just like as you walk past, just like put it down. When we get in trouble. a little bit. Yeah, minimal. Could we, it will. Is any Jesus still work there? No, no, he's gone. No, he can't straighten it out with us then. He could just his benevolence would fix everything. Anyways, use nutritional yeast, salt, onion powder, garlic powder. I only recently got some MSG and citric acid, which is one of the reasons also why the yeast stuff
+
+[38:10] isn't there because it's any sort of protein breakdown powder to get that kind of umami crab in there. And citric acid, and I'm curious to see how adding those will get me closer to the right flavor. Uh, and then he includes my issues. The spice mix is not here to the popcorn well if it is added after cooking. Yes, it is true. A lot of the spice mix just falls to the bottom of the bowl. When I'm only using finely ground salt, I add to the pot with the kernels, and it sticks great. If I do this with other spices, they just burn, yes, because spices burn water, salt doesn't. What can I do to get a nice coat of seasoning on the popcorn? I got an answer for you on that one, Nick. That is not a problem. And do you think it's realistic to get close to a commercial flavor without a bunch of industrial ingredients? And clothes, or you can make a good flavor. FYI, I pop my kernels in a pot with coconut oil on an electric range. He then sends me the Zefty cheese details. Here is the list of ingredients, corn maltodextrin, which is just a bulking age. So we're talking about the powder, how this is the seasoning ingredient list. So, uh, maltodextrin, whey powder, salt, MSG, onion powder, sugar, cheddar, uh, and Parmesan cheeses, corn syrup salads, natural artificial flavors, color, garlic powder, citric acid, sodium case nate, autolized yeast extract, dye sodium, uh,
+
+[39:20] icinus. can't pronounce it. I can't pronounce it. And uh, uh, dye sodium and guanalakes. So like the Autolize East extract, and the, uh, and all that other stuff, uh, is there so that they don't have to add as much MSG as, as they,
+
+[39:35] as they want to add. That stuff's creating that kind of stuff. The cheese flavors from the sodium case, Nate, the whey powder,
+
+[39:41] the Parmesan cheese and the cheddar. So you can just jack the actual cheese powders that you have in
+
+[39:47] it instead of doing that, probably to similar effect. The maltodextrin is in there to bulk up the spice powder so
+
+[39:54] that it's, you know, kind of bulk better. Um, and the onion, the sugar, uh, the corn syrup solids, maybe that's there for
+
+[40:03] water healing, but I don't think so. And that natural artificial flavors, which is where you can put the spices in, right? And the citric acid, that's all there for the flavors that you're looking for. So you could probably mix something like that. You just got to make sure you get the MSG right. The secret that you don't have is that what they do, and this is what's going to blow your mind. What they do is they mix that spice mix into an oil mixture and then spray that oil mixture onto the Doritos. And that's how you do it. And that's how you do it on popcorn too. So the reason that movie theater popcorn is so incredibly caloric,
+
+[40:35] right? is that you, um, is that they pop it, and then they spray or pump the butter mixture on top of
+
+[40:44] it that has that flavor, right? So they're adding a bunch of extra oil. And you're gonna have to do the same. You don't have to add that much oil. But what you do is you mix the spice into a slurry, right? So that it's like, you know, not a paste. It has to be runny enough to coat. Then you can stick the, uh, you can stick the popcorn, uh, want it to be
+
+[41:03] hot and you want the oil to be hot, but not burning like it's going to burn the spices. and then like swirl it over and then put it between 2 bowls and shake the hell out of it so that it coats all
+
+[41:11] around. Look and see if you have enough. You can add some more and do it. You can actually, if you have a tumbler, you can spray it in, uh, you can spray it in while it's
+
+[41:21] tumbling is the best way to do it, but very few people, uh, can do
+
+[41:24] that. Let me see what you said, how you pop it again. Um, you pop it on an electric range. Yeah, so if you have a whirly pop, you might be able to turn the popcorn machine off and spin it a little bit, but I don't know how
+
+[41:34] much, you're really going to need to get a lot of good agitation, but the secret is oil slurry. Yeah? What do you think sounds good? Good job. All right. Paul Yee writes in, hey, Dave and Nastasia, no love for Jack. I've been making my own almond nut milk for a few months and have recently noticed that the milk will separate a lot when I add kosher salt. Separate a little bit when I omit salt and stay together when I add Celtic gray salt. My suspicion is this is because the kosher salt is acidic, well, the gray salt is more basic. Do you have any guess why this might happen? Paul ye. I have a guess, but I don't have an answer. I was trying to do some research. I didn't have time to do the research on it, but I can try to look for it next time. I think the issue here is that you have, uh, the almond milk might
+
+[42:15] be, um, susceptible to certain, uh, to certain ions and not to others. So kosher salt is exclusively pretty much sodium chloride, NACL. Uh, whereas, uh, Celtic gray salt is probably has a lot more of the other impurities that are present in
+
+[42:35] seawater, like magnesium, uh, or calcium. And it's these kind of divalent, uh, these kind of divalent ions that can sometimes do things like
+
+[42:45] clot, tofu and other things like this. And so I don't know, because I haven't done a test to see whether almond milk is sensitive to uh,
+
+[42:55] divalent uh, positive ions, but that is my guess. But I was going to do some research on almond milk, but I didn't get a chance, but do some research on that poking around. pretty sure that's the, I'm pretty sure that's the answer, but I don't know. Pre sure, though. Uh, Steve from Miami writes in. Hey, Nastasia, Dave and Jack. I was wondering if Dave could dive into a few tortilla nixtamilization questions. For those of you who don't remember, nixtimization is the process by which you boil and soak grain, typically
+
+[43:22] corn, in an alkaline mixture, typically made of calcium hydroxide. Uh, and then uh, you let that soak for a while. It does a number of awesome things, like break down the C code, make it easier to grind, partially cook some of the starch out so that it forms a coherent dough and turns the outside
+
+[43:40] C code of the corn into like a hydrocolloid mass that helps to bind masse into the awesome stuff that we know as
+
+[43:47] tortillas. It's the reason why tortillas are tortillas and not just cornmeal pancakes. Um, So, uh, could you recommend a good source of corn readily available in the
+
+[43:57] US? I came across www.rovc.com. Stas, isn't that the one we used? Didn't we use Roevi? Stas. Uh-oh. You guys there? Uh, stars, stars lost the line. I guess so. Yeah, the phone got disconnected. Uh, I think Roe v is the one that we used, and then Roe v was recommended to us by the Torteria Nixtamal, which is the Torteria, the only one for a while that was doing it here in New York, was doing the, um, their own
+
+[44:33] Nixtamalization. So I think those are the guys that we use. The problem is, is that it costs almost as much to buy from to ship this £50 sack as it does to, you know, if you're only doing it a little
+
+[44:43] bit as it does to just, uh, the corn. In fact, the shipping was more than the corn. So I think, you know, any local, unless you're going to buy £50 sacks, in which case, yeah, go to
+
+[44:53] them. But, um, you know, I know that, um, uh, Danny, Danny Bowen said he was using Anson Mills, but that stuff super pricey. But if you're interested in kind of super pricey heirloom corns, that's another place you might want to go. And then, do you have any experience with the Nixtomatic grinder mill or any other equivalent to grind mill fresh next to mal and tomasa? No, I wish I did. That, the Nixtomatic is the one that the, um, Oh my god, then his name just went out of my head. The guy from the famous bean place in California. Anyways, uh, Rancho Rancho Gordo beans, he has one. He says they're awesome, and you can get them in Mexico, but as far as I know, they're not available here. It looked awesome. But no, I've only ever used the corona. I've used Matati Manos. That was a pain in the acid, not recommend doing that, which is the traditional way to do it. I've used a food processor. Again, not recommended. reason is, is that you have to add too much liquid to it to get it to grind properly that way. And I've used the corona hand mill, which is made in Colombia, but is used for this sort of stuff. And it works, but it is a pain, yes. Um, it's just really a pain to do. So, uh, but everyone who, I know that's using extematic says, it's awesome. And then, next question, how long would fresh massa last in the fridge, vacuum sealed or not? I think fresh masa, Oh, here's and then I'll rant round out of this stuff. Could you freeze fresh made tortillas without a huge loss on quality, or are there some best practices, the whole fresh tortillas? PS can't wait for this series all to arrive. Thank you and cheers. Steve. All right. I'll handle all those those last 2 questions at once. Here's the thing. Once you make a tour, once you make masa. I think the masa, I think it's better to hold masa than it is to hold tortillas. Once you take a tortilla and heat it, and then it kind of cools, and you, you know, you cook it, you do it to an initial cook. I don't think it's ever the same again, ever. I think it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when you go, and they make crepes, and then they reheat the
+
+[46:47] crepes, and they're not quite as good as when they made them fresh. I think it's much more so with a tortilla. I think a tortilla really wants to be eaten right after it's made. You know? Maybe reheat it a little bit, like it was made a couple of minutes ago or like, you know, an hour ago, but I think a tortilla is like on a downward spiral right after it's made.
+
+[47:03] Masa, on the other hand, I think, can hold a day in the fridge better than a tortilla can. So if you're going to hold one, I would hold masa. Um, So, I mean, that's just that's just my feeling. Here's my level. here's my level my quality levels. I would say I would take a, so Maseca is the, is the flour that you use when you're not making your own mase. It's like, you know, instant masa, basically. Uh, I would say the height of the tortilla is a nicely made fresh masa, uh, tortilla fresh. Then the next level down from that is masa that was made yesterday, made into a tort, and maybe even frozen. I dont know if masa will freeze. I never tried it. Masa was made into tortilla, masa was made yesterday, made into a tortilla today, fresh being. Then I would say the next down on the list, farther, much farther down the list would be Maseca Tortilla made today. Then after that would be, uh, yesterday's fresh masa tortilla, and then further down from that, uh, yesterday's
+
+[48:07] masseca tortilla. That's pretty much how it goes. That makes sense, Jack? Yeah. All right, Stodge, you're back. be nice. Oh, did you say something? I was looking at my email. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's like the real life. Yeah, I was asking you questions about where we got our corn from. That was literally when I pulled the phone away from my head and looked at the email that just came in. That's so funny. Yeah, it's hilarious. Anyway, do you remember, was it Roe V Seed? I think it was. Yeah, it was. Blue? Yeah, the blue stuff, yeah. Drew writes in. Great show. makes my commute every day. I recently got a couple of vacuum pumps and a Micro Centerfuge at a State University surplus sale. Both of the vacuum pumps came from the food science department. Uh, and would you say where? Just said State University. It doesn't say what state. Um, and is it precision scientific VAC tour, Direct Drive 100, uh, which you purchased for $40. I can't seem to find much about this mall at all. Well, I found a little bit of something, Drew. And that sucker, the only thing I was able to find on that model, is that it is, uh, I have a picture of some sort of
+
+[49:08] like 1970s looking woman holding it up in some sort of like super, It's really weird style. You would groove on this lady's outfit. like long johns with like a halter top lawn john over the long, long johns. I love long time. I know. You're like freaking long, John Silver. Just free in February, you need to buy Stas something for like a gift, long johns. Um, okay. Uh, and it looks to be a vacuum pump, uh, as you know, uh, that an oil vein guy. Oh, by the way, just so you guys know, the questions that we're going to be using, he bought another pump too. Would either of these pumps be worth trying to use for DIY, rotary evaporator, chamber
+
+[49:48] back, or the like? Uh, that guy looks, uh, good for, uh, that guy looks good for a Roto app, no problem. I don't know if it's going to be good for a chamber back, I don't think it'll evacuate fast enough, but he's got to make sure they're still in good working order because it's definitely strong enough. And the other pump you had was a Fisher Scientific Maxima, D8A, similarly a rotary vein, oil-based vacuum pump. Just make sure this, you know, that it works right. Both of those pumps work fine. The uh, Fisher scientific one only does 7 cubic feet per minute, which is similar to the refrigeration vacuum pumps that I buy on eBay when I'm doing my DIY stuff.
+
+[50:28] Uh, and you can do a chamber vacuum machine with them, but they're not as nearly as fast and as powerful as the big ones, but they will
+
+[50:36] work. But you just need to make sure that you keep them clean. But anyway, so yes, those would be useful for those things. Uh, remember Daniel at Harvard does? Mhm, yeah. He said that you, the one thing you don't want to do is run those things for a long, long time unless you have an oil filter on them because they, uh, they can, uh, heat up and uh, put out
+
+[50:56] silicone, uh, oil mist, which he says is not so good to breathe. I don't know if that's true or not, but I kind of tend to trust Daniel. Uh, Drew also writes, I've got an Eppendorf. I also got an Eppendorf, 5412, micro centrifuge, 5 bucks from the 1970s. No lid, but a child no lid. story of our life, right? But by the way, did our centrifuge ever get working or no? Um, I haven't, they use the one upstairs. I think the downstairs one is done. Yeah, it's not done. They just don't know how to fix one of the centrifuges at the bar is acting up, but we need to get that fixed. The one downstairs is better. Anyway, whatever. No lid, but a chunk of acrylic seems to be doing the trick. It works, but it looks like it only has 12 by one. millimeter, milliliter capacity, i.e. not very much. That's uh, what's 12 times one, 18 mils total. So is it worth using for culinary applications? In other words, should I invest a $10 for tubes or just put it up on eBay for sale? Thanks, Drew. Well, it's not really useful. No. Except if you want to experiment with it. You don't have another centrifuge lying around. If you were going to experiment with something like that. Would it be useful for is doing some, um, I forget the name of it. It's called like CentraVap or something like this. And what you do is you hook up one of your vacuum pumps to the chunk, you put a seal. I looked at this centrifuge online and it's small enough that I bet you it's crush proof under a vacuum. So if you just put a little seal on your chunk of acrylic and a vacuum tube to it, you could suck a vacuum. And the idea is, is that liquids in the tubes won't boil out of the
+
+[52:20] tubes because they're under centrifugal force, which will pop the bubbles as they're form and you're boiling. And so you can do relatively rapid uh, evaporation. And so you could probably uh, low, low temp evaporate uh, products in it pretty well. So you might want to try it for a central vap application. But for actual centrifuging, nah, sucker's too small to be useful. Uh, okay. And we got one last question. We got time styles or no? Yeah, we have a few minutes. Yeah, we got to wrap it up, guys. All right, there's a long question too. Chris, you have some question about, like, I'll have to get back to Chris's question next time. Uh, he had a question about um, making up, do you like Bakalao Stas? No, I just, I talked to Mark about it this morning. I said, that sounds gross. and he said, that sounds delicious. So, you don't, well, 1st of all, like, what? Well, back a lot of foam, uh, warm, the whole thing sounded gross to me. Well, do you like brandad? I don't even know what that is. Rondat is like bakala, and and potatoes, and like cream. It's like a French thing. It's delicious, brandant, but it's not somed usually. Chris had a question on bakala foam. He wants to do a bakala foam. We'll deal with it next time. But, uh, anything, anything else? anything else going on before we head out, guys? Uh no, but I'll call you after. All right. So, Chris, I'm sorry, I'll get to your question next time. I'm trying to stabilize your, your, uh, your kind of Brondad foam there. Good to be back. Be with you next week. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
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+[0:25] anytime anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a 1st
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+[0:31] stepfather. Talk space made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talk space works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 co-pay, no insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your 1st month with promo code space 80 when you go to
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+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. Today's show is brought to you by Seersucker Brooklyn. For more information. Visit seersucker, Brooklyn.com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:25] Cooking your shoes.
+
+[1:48] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issue. Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your hose of cooking. She's coming to the land from Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Finally, back in Bushwick. How you doing, Stas? Yeah, Stas back in the studio. It's been a full month since we've been live in the studio. Jack, how you doing over there? Yeah, I've been lonely. Let me tell you. Aw, now you're just making me feel good. You know, sad it was to do cooking issues just with you and Styles on the phone. Well, also, you know, what else I heard? we used up all of the all of the phone lines. someone tried to call in. I heard later, if someone tried to call in and they couldn't because of the whole, you know, we were just sucking up the
+
+[2:33] phone. Hogging up the phone bandwidth. Just sucking that crap up. All right. Well, listen. So we also have with us in the studio today, Moses, what's your last name, Moses? Moses what? Moses Jerrena. Here, I'll get yourself a mic, was it? So, no one gets to, no one gets to hang out here without me pestering them. So what is it what is it that you do here at the Heritage Radio? I just take care of the social media stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, see, like, what does that, what does that mean? Well, like live tweeting during the show, taking pictures, you know, general PR stuff. Well, and you're on the Heritage radio? Yeah. All right, so listen, let's say you have a job. I don't know, but you're listening to this on earphones or something. Why don't you, instead of live tweeting your questions in, you can tweet a question to Moses at
+
+[3:17] Heritage Radio. What's what's our full handle there? At Heders radio? Heritage underscore radio? At Heritage underscore radio. You tweet that in, and that's as good as calling, because, I don't know, maybe you can't call. Maybe you're somewhere where you can't call, but you want to tweet any question. You can live tweeting a question, and Moses will read it to me on the air, and then we'll go from there. Or you can call in your questions. 718-4972128. That 718-497-2128. Uh, so how you been, Stas? Good. Yeah? Anything good or bad happening? Nope. Nothing. Nope. Nothing. Alright. How about you? Yeah, what happened to you? Okay, so I've been gone for a number of reasons, but the reason we weren't in the studio last week is I was recovering from a
+
+[3:55] minor, minor bout of this surgery, it all happens to us as we get older. But the good thing about, well, the bad thing about it, recovering from this particular surgery is that, uh, I was kind of laid up for a number of days, and I couldn't really do anything, and I, you know, you know
+
+[4:11] how, like, your mind is kind of scrambled when you're recovering. So it's not like I could do real work. But what I could do is watch Netflix. And so, uh, what I ended up watching, Colombo, I watched like an insane amount of Colombo, and
+
+[4:22] there's, there's an insane amount of Colombo actually on, on Netflix for you to watch. Ths. you ever watch Columbo? No? No? It's in LA. Rockford Files? Do you watch any of the LA based? Do you care about anything? Like, what did you, what did you, What LA stars, by the way, from the LA area? So this is like not what LA-based TV shows did you watch, if any? Melrose place. I never watched that kind of crap. Columbo, Columbo is a, Jack, Columbo? No, sorry. Jesus. Moses? Wasn't that during like the 40s or something? The 40s? The 40s. Oh my 1st of all, okay, for those of you out there, it's a little bit slower than modern kind of mystery things because, you know, back then people
+
+[5:01] could, they had what, what do they call that thing? Attention span. People had attention spans back in the 70s. But Colombo is like the greatest character ever by one of my favorite actors of all time, Peter Falk, sadly dead.
+
+[5:15] But Peter Falk, Glass Eye. I love any actor with a glass eye. Stas, you know I love a glass eye. Love a glass eye. Any who, Peter Falk has a glass eye. And by the way, he used to, like, he was hilarious, but he got his glass eye when he was a kid. I think it was an accident, and one of the things he used to do was he would play baseball, and like, if he didn't like the call, he would literally pop his glass eye out and hand it to the
+
+[5:34] ump. How sweet is that? So sweet. Anyway, so Colombo, what's awesome about it is Colombo is like a study in 1970s kind of class
+
+[5:44] warfare. So Colombo is this detective who's like, he's wrong, he's rumpled. He's got the he's got the coat on, he drives a really crappy Peugeot that like no one else drives. It's like all beat up and mangled. and he never and he has a really crappy dog that won't do anything that he says. And so he has this kind of real rumpled mess thing going
+
+[6:02] on. And all of the murderers that Colombo deals with are kind of rich, either rich, really rich, really smart, really snooty, some combination of like upper
+
+[6:11] crust. and he sits there and kind of systematically takes them down with his like insane like logic. He's like the detective version of a Socrates, who's also an ugly man, by the way, Socrates, ugly man and kind of, you know, like kind of weird, weird. Anyway. So, Columbo, amazing show, amazing. But, uh, there's kind of, there's one that I really want to focus on the reason I'm bringing it up on cooking issues. Because otherwise, why would I be talking about Columbo, right? is in season seven, I made it all the way through 7 seasons. Season seven, which is the last one on Netflix, 1978, there's an episode called Murder
+
+[6:42] Under Glass. Now, if you're a cook, you got to watch Murder. Well, if you're a cook who cares about like old style, uh, old style cooking. You have to watch Murder under glass. Like, have we talked about who's killing the great chefs of Europe? All right, who's killing anyone, seeing who's killing the great chefs of Europe? Another great 70? That's a movie, a great movie from the 70s where the shtick is that this guy, I'm not going to ruin it for
+
+[7:08] you about why, but all of these, the great chefs of Europe, duh, are getting murdered, but here's the awesome part. They're getting murdered using the techniques that are used to make their signature dishes, right? So I'll give you, I'll give you one of the signature dishes, press duck. Leave it there. Press duck. I'll give you another one. ice cream bomb. Great, great, great. Anyway, but like, so that's one of my favorite movies for like seeing a particular style of food manufacturer that you don't necessarily get to see anymore because they're putting it in
+
+[7:40] movie format. Now, the common movies that we look at to see kind of crazy over the top food stuff would
+
+[7:46] be what, like LeGrand Bouffe, which has my man, Marcel Mastriani, where they all eating each other to
+
+[7:51] debt. They eat, they eat themselves to death. But it's not really, I mean, it's not so interesting from a gastronomic standpoint, like what they're what they're eating necessarily. The Bad Bats feast, obviously, classic cook thief wife lover, but I'm not so into seeing someone like, you know, the Peter Eaters, which is, I
+
+[8:04] guess, how you describe the end of that movie. You've seen Cook thief-wife lover, right? Do you like that movie? I don't remember it well. You don't remember? How can you not remember? You seen this thing, Moses? Jack? Sorry, man, we're striking out today. Hell. We don't have a lot of time. Oh, yeah. Oh, don't have a lot of, you didn't have a lot of time when you were, when you were 12 to watch a movie. I mean, what the hell are you talking about? I didn't have a lot of time the entire time I've been alive. to give that crap. I hate that crap. That's such New York crap. I don't have the time to go watch a movie. This movie's been out since before you were freaking boring stars. You had all of your freaking life to watch. I choose not to watch. All right, you choose not to watch it. Not that I don't have time. I choose not to watch it. That's much more reasonable anyway. The awesome thing about this Colombo. Oh, I watched Melrose place. I have the time for freaking Melrose place. Not time for freaking, you know, like, uh, like, uh, whatever, I'm not gonna get into it. But the, uh, Melrose Place, really time worthy pursuit right there. Anyways. If anybody wants to sponsor a viewing party, we can maybe facilitate this. I would love to do that. You know, like I was going to... I have to do this thing in Toronto Film Festival, uh, where the movie that, um, it's a food-based movie, and like all the good ones that like Willy Wonka, which is like one of my
+
+[9:16] all time, or Charlie Chuck. not the depth one, the other one, although I love depth. like the Gene Wilder, which you've seen that
+
+[9:22] one, right? Yeah, definitely, yeah. One of God's great movies. That's an amazing movie. life-changing movie. Chocolate, dwarves, amazing. Yeah, everything, everything you could want. It has. It has like kids turning into blueberries. it's classic, you know? Uh, it's got Gene. I know you love Gene Wilder stars. She's shaking her head up and down. She giving the happy styles face, which is rarely seen, but, gee, Wilder, I mean, come on now, G. Wilder? I mean, G Wilder. Anyway. So that was taken. I got stuck with Soylent Green, which I like Charlton Heston, right? But, I mean, I don't know, soil and green. you seen that movie? It's made of people. You familiar with the It's made of people line? You seen Saturday Night Live. No, yes, I, I, I, I'm familiar with that line. All right, yeah, it's made of, yes, because so the green, I don't know why I'm getting this, but so the green is like the idea
+
+[10:05] is, is that everyone's eating this food and it's made, it's made of people and so they're crushing people up in this kind of futuristic thing and then turning them into food to feed
+
+[10:11] other people. Hello, it's called perpetual motion machine that can't work. That can't work. It's like Ponzi, it's pyramid scheme. You can't crush people to feed people because, like, you know, all of, like, almost right away you would run out of people. Think of how much food you eat every day, you know what I mean? over the course of a year. I mean, like it's unsustainable, even a couple of years. What? said it wouldn't work wouldn't work. Not even for a couple of years, it wouldn't work. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, as a supplement maybe, right? I mean, as a don't waste, as, you know, as a, as a, you know, as a, don't waste the, the meat policy, maybe, but not as an actual, like, you know, regular staple component of your
+
+[10:45] diet. It doesn't make sense. It's like when you see gerbils and you have too many gerbils in a cage and they start eating each other, no one makes it out alive. It's not a situation where, you know, it's like, oh, you know, I'll eat,
+
+[10:55] you will, all 10 of us will eat one gerbil today and then tomorrow we'll quit. No, it doesn't work that way. Anyway. Back to Colombo. So in this murder under glass, the murderer is a restaurant critic in San
+
+[11:05] Francisco in LA, I guess, uh, in the, um, in the 70s, in the late 70s, 1978. And Columbo is like, uh, because he's solving the murder of one of the great chefs of
+
+[11:17] the of the community there, all the other chefs feed him amazing food. And the entire episode is one
+
+[11:24] amazing long kind of food porn from the 70s. And it's kind of food that you don't see. Uh, you know, nowadays for the for the most part. And, uh, what's really awesome about it was, is just like the breadth of crazy stuff. For instance, they had Fugu in it. Now, who was thinking of Fugu back? Fugu's the poison pufferfish from, you know, in Japanese food. And who the hell in the 70s in the US was thinking about Fulu? Puffovich? But not only did they talk about it. Not only did they have a pufferfish there, but they served a
+
+[11:54] full on Fugu course at this dinner that they had, and it was done right. I don't know if you guys ever seen a plate of Hugu? I've seen it on the Simpsons actually. And did they do it right? It's like they look like feathers almost. like the... So pufferfish is kind of stretchy, right? And so they slice it thin and it's almost like these kind of like feathered out. It's like on a, on like a large kind of circular plate and it's feathered out in almost like a, like a, like a dahlia kind of effect or like a peacock kind of effect where like the pieces are kind of overleafed on each other and feathered up.
+
+[12:24] And, damn it, they did it like dead on. They did it like dead. In fact, FUBU poison was the poison of choice in this Colombo episode. But then they had like this amazing looking panatone. They had like a bunch of foie gras stuff, which back in the 70s was rare in the US. Like, but then he goes to a dinner at a French restaurant and they bust out all of the sick,
+
+[12:46] like, present presentation stuff from, like, some of my favorite books. So, uh, and this is what kind of, they, for instance, like, they do a rock lobster that's been eviscerated, cooked, and then the meat layered in aspic and decorated all down the, down the back of it with the sick presentations, like salmon, uh, you know, and I speak with truffles,
+
+[13:03] like all, like all the old school, all the old school stuff. So you have to watch it just for that. But what it made me think of is old books. And have we done a lot of old book talking on here on some? Like what? What have we talked about? I don't know, you don't know, because you're reading another book right now, another old book right now, if we could talk about it, instead of paying attention. Even when Nastasia doesn't bring her computer. She cannot be bothered to pay attention to what's going on in the show. She's literally reading a book that I was reading on the subway on the way over here right now instead of paying attention to what's going on. Oh, all right. We'll get back to the old books on a minute call or you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? Doing all right. Very well. And my name is Antoine. in from Boca, John, Florida. Nice, Boca Raton. I'm, in fact, wearing Florida garb right now. I have on a linen Guaybera. Yeah. No way. Yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah. I got my I got my Spanish boss hog. my El Jefe Deserto outfit on. I have a Panama hat. I was walking over here with my linen Guayabara. I'm all set. What's up? Yeah, I was going to have actually to a previous episode you had done where you had mentioned you went to Boca. I just wanted to see if there's any places you ever recommended here. That's one question. The 2nd is, I was like making sushi at home, but I don't like purchasing like expensive sushi
+
+[14:14] grade tuna. And I was wondering what level of contamination do you think there
+
+[14:19] is, if I was to go to Whole Foods and just buy there, fish and make it with that. Well, I mean, I'm sure, like, if you see a piece of tuna that, I mean, look, let me put it this way. The sushi tuna, the tuna that is used, the high-end tuna that's used out there for sushi, it has as much or more mercury as anything else that you're going to get, right?
+
+[14:40] Because, um, they're all kind of unsustainably captured and,
+
+[14:45] um, you know, for the 1st question is, is like, we're talking like real tuna, like bluefin, the 1st question is whether or not you want to actually deal in the market with that because it's seriously, seriously, seriously overfished right
+
+[14:56] now. But in terms of the mercury, like the issue with any sort of top chain predator fish, like
+
+[15:02] a tuna, is that as long as they're eating stuff in the wild, they're bioaccumulators. So the bigger they are and the older they are, the more mercury they're going to have in them. And that's why if you see these kind of low mercury or mercury free tunas and cans, all they're really doing is they're getting younger tuna, they haven't had the time to bioaccumulate as much mercury. So there's that on the mercury contamination. Now, As far as bacterial contamination. Also, there shouldn't be too much of an issue with a whole muscle fish because bacteria is only going to get into the inside of a fish where it's been jabbed or
+
+[15:37] poked. So now you got 2 remaining questions. And that is the quality of the fish in general. And then the 2nd thing is the actual kind of taste quality. So what happens to fish as it gets too old is that it, um, you know, it starts oxidizing, it starts losing its textural properties. And that's where it's kind of, like, in terms of, uh, in terms of the muscle quality, uh, the actual taste, muscle quality
+
+[16:00] texture and the kind of oxidative stress that the muscle's gone through. That's where the really expensive tuna is going to start breaking free from the less expensive tuna, right? So like a really, really fancy piece of tuna, not only is it like a high, high quality muscle, but it's been treated right. For instance, like tuna that is destined to become sushi,
+
+[16:21] they usually they're in a farm, which is a misnomer. It's not really farms. What they do is they capture wild tuna and then they fatten them up in pens. But they what they do is they send divers out every day to dive around in the pools, at least they used
+
+[16:35] to. I haven't researched it in a couple of years. They send divers to swim around in the pools with harpoons all
+
+[16:40] day, every day so that these tuna get used to seeing these human divers like going around. And then, when it comes time to harvest one, actually, they use, yeah, they're electric stun harpoons. They would they would hit them with the thing, which gives them an electric jolt. The electric jolt is very finely tuned to not snap the spine because if it snaps the spine,
+
+[16:58] or, you know, it's too violent on the convulsions, you can get blood spots in the meat, and that kind of ruins that section of the meat in terms of its marketability. Then they bring the fish on board and they perform Ikujime, where they put the needle through the spine. They do the bleed out and they put the needle through the spine. So all of those effects tend to increase the muscle quality greatly, but they also tend to increase the price. So they're only going to do that kind of work on tuna that's destined for a high-end kind of a sushi operation. So right away, the texture of the flesh is going to be a lot better in that situation. Also, when you're dealing with tuna, especially the fattier portions, which are, you know, kind of, you know, like underneath and forward on the tuna. Like those pieces, you want to leave them whole as long as possible because anytime they're exposed to oxygen, they go under oxidative stress.
+
+[17:46] So if you have someone in Whole Foods who's planking the steaks out, like, you know, like, you know, the day before or something like that, then all of a sudden you get a lot more oxidation on that surface
+
+[17:54] or the fish and it's not, the oils aren't going to taste, it's good. Not as big of a deal in like the leaner cuts of tuna, but a much bigger deal in the fattier cuts of tuna. That make sense? Yeah for sure. Yeah. So you can definitely do it, but another thing to do is to just, you know, find whatever kind
+
+[18:09] of like local species, like so many species of fish are actually good for sashimi and for sushi, but they're just, you know, they're not
+
+[18:18] used so widely because maybe they're not available in Japan. You know what I mean? And so, like, they just maybe haven't been used to great effect yet because there's not a culture of it. So, you know, I don't know what what's coming in right now in uh, in Florida that's considered like, you know, uh, good and and sustainable, but I would find something that comes in off of, uh, you know, a day boat there that, you know, is kept like on ice the entire time and
+
+[18:46] then. Yeah, we typically get Grouper here. Like, that's a really good cut. I love I love Grouper, but if they start, they start. I love Grouper, but if they started getting grouper that they actually feel is like sustainable to harvest or no? Uh, well, I mean, like, they do all wild pot here, so no, it's not quite sustainable yet. But I mean, it is our precious catch that we get here often. And what was the other one? Um, no, no, that was the other one. I was just saying, I, I usually take on a, like, I, I'm usually more concerned about the contamination part, so, like, I'll often do, like, uh,
+
+[19:20] provy and ceviche, you know, and then put that inside of a roll instead, so that I coax it more than anything else. Right. I mean, look, you know, if you, if you, I would just find like a fish, like a fish monger that you, you trust, especially if you can see the whole fish. Look, if you can see the whole fish before they, before they uh, chop it up, I mean, like, you know, what they, what they always taught me, and I still believe it, is that, you know, you can, if you, if you can look at the gills and the eyes, then you can trust a fish.
+
+[19:51] You know what I'm saying? So if you, yeah, so it's like clear eyes and and bright gills. Once the gills start going, like that's when you know that you're, you know, you're not dealing with, you're dealing with something that's been sitting around a while. So, um, you know, although, I mean, that's generally what I look for. So if you if you have the ability to check out the gills and the and the eyes, you know, then, uh, you know, and obviously see whether or not you could tell also, like, I see a lot of fish that, uh, even though it's fresh, it got the hell beat out of it on the boat. You know what I mean? And so you can see that the body is like mangled and like, you can see like, like, damage from, like, literal impact damage on the sides of the fish. And, you know, that fish will be fresh, but it won't necessarily, the muscle in that area won't necessarily be as
+
+[20:38] good, and it's also indicative of other stress the fish probably went through during catch and slaughter that might lead to deterioration of qualities.
+
+[20:48] Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. So that's that was excellent. I also was wondering if you recommend any places to eat when you were in
+
+[20:56] Boca, the South Florida region. You know, uh, we didn't. I didn't really eat out much. I was, uh, last time I was there. I did a dinner with or like an event with Chef Jeremiah Bullfrog, who's awesome. So, you know, obviously I like I like him. Uh, but we, we spent most, I spent most of my time. just eating as much kind of rare fruit as is humanly possible.
+
+[21:18] And so, you know, down in South Dade, I was going to, um, I mean, the fruit and spice park, which I think is amazing. And then also trying to go to the Fairchild to eat as much of the mango stuff that they
+
+[21:29] had as they had possible. And, you know, I even went to, what's that place called Styles Roberts? Remember that fruit Stanley went to? Robert's fruit? I saw the other day in a photo. I can't remember. Yeah, which is like, it's really expensive, but they have like all the cool, all the cool kind of fruit down there. So like literally, I was just soaking in fruit and then like my actual meals, because my family went down with me is like, you know, my wife, like when I'm, especially when my kids are there, when they're there,
+
+[21:57] like, I don't really go out to any kind of fancy stuff, I go to what's easy for the kids and then spend most of my kind of research time on, uh, on like the rare fruits that you can't get.
+
+[22:06] You know what I mean? Totally. Well, with that being said, I've called in before twice, and you've always been very helpful and you've given me such great free knowledge. I'd love to return the favor. So, I mean, if there's something I have my family in Peru. I'd love to send you another something from there or from here, just give me the request. I love to send it. Nice. Well, I mean,
+
+[22:30] someday I'll someday I'll get to go to Peru. It's like, you know, one of the obviously great culinary, uh, It's like one of the great culinary stops in the world these days and, you know, it's just I haven't been able to go yet. Someday I'll go. I mean, apparently it's just, you know, everyone tells me that it's amazing and just getting better and better. I mean, if you listen. Well, as you go, I would love to recommend our my family just started one of the 1st craft breweries over there. Really? Well, shoot, shoot me over a tweet at cooking issues. And so, you know, so I have your handle and we'll we'll stay in touch on that. Please, like I said, I'd love to send you something, it's the least I can do for all the knowledge you've given me and everyone
+
+[23:07] else, and it's the least I could do from one food each to another. All right. Well, I appreciate it, brother. Thanks so much You guys have a great one. you. Oh, you too. Hey Jack, should we go to commercial break? That sounds like a great idea. All right, we'll be right back with more cooking issues.
+
+[23:36] We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member, Seersucker. Seersucker is a 40 seat neighborhood spot inspired by the food and hospitality of the South. Chef owner Robert Newton, who hails from Arkansas, has crafted a cuisine inspired equally by his childhood
+
+[23:50] favorites and the Carroll Street grain market across the street. He relies upon small local farms and indie purveyors for many of his ingredients, so the menu changes frequently based on what's available and in season. Sear Sucker's beer, wine, and spirits list is all American, with an emphasis on New York State. Learn more by visiting their website, seersuckerbrooklyn.com. To learn more about becoming a business member, email us info at
+
+[24:14] heritageradionetwork.org. Hey, see, Jack. Now, I thought, seersucker, I was going to like go buy some seersucker suits, and that's why I was even more grooving on the whole boss hog thing that I was
+
+[24:24] wearing like, you know, the Guayabara because I thought we were going to like all of a sudden were like all going to be dressed in seersucker suits. We could go to seersucker dressed in seersuckers. You want to? I think we should. I mean, my most of my serious I have 2 serious sucker jackets, both of which were ruined. So for those of you that go to Tales of the Cocktail, which is kind of the New Orleans, like, you know, booze soaked
+
+[24:45] debauch cocktail thing that, you know, we all have to go to every year if you're in the business.
+
+[24:50] Uh, like one of the things you're supposed to eventually do is wear a seersucker. It's happened to me twice that someone has poured a freaking, like, staining cocktail on me during that, during that event. So both my, both my, both my seersucker jackets are uh, they're kind of kind of ruined. Stas won't let me wear them. Was that the one stars where you said, I thought we agreed that you weren't gonna wear that anymore. Remember I had one jacket that had been too stained that I really loved? And you were like, I wore it to some chute and Stas is like, I thought we had agreed that you would not wear that anymore. All right. Actually, so I was going to get into some books. Oh, I do have one request, though. It's not Peruvian. If anyone out there, you guys familiar with the sweet gum tree, sweet gum, anyone? No one from New England over here. Jack, where'd you grow up again? Sweet gumtree, dude. Sweet, you know, sweet grunt tree? Okay, it's the one that it's the one that drops the little balls that look like they came from Minesweeper. I'm looking at this, yep. Yeah okay. It's got a leaf that looks a little bit like a maple, but not, and it drops a little minesweeper balls on the ground. There's a lot of those sometimes. Yeah. Well, the tree, the sweet gum tree. Dax loves sweet gum trees because he sucks on the on the leaves. it has a taste. It has a flavor. Would you like some flavor? Have a sweet gum leaf, and he starts eating them. He doesn't really talk like that because he's a little, so he, you know, his voice is a little more, but it's kind of like that. You've heard Dax. talks like that. Anyways. So the sweet gumtree, which everyone knows I can't pronounce things. So in, uh, it's a liquid liquid umbar, a styracaflua is the, uh, is the, uh, name of that thing. But you can harvest resin from the sweet gum tree that's supposed to be sweet and like good to kind of chew, but I don't have the ability to harvest any of it because I don't have land with my own trees that I can kind of, you kind of, you know, you cut away a section of the bark, you let it
+
+[26:35] drip and you harvest it and it dries out and think it turns into this kind of sweet thing. But if anyone who can hear the sound of my voice has access to some
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+[26:45] sweet gum resin, I will gladly buy some because I'm dying to try it. And it should have already happened by now, because I think they probably do it in May, uh, you know, March, April, May, who knows what the season that we've had now, but it should be similar season, I would guess, to win, um, to win Maple
+
+[27:04] flow is, although I don't know, because I've never made it, but, you know, or if you have access to it, you know, call me and like, you know, call in and tell me like how you make
+
+[27:12] it, because I just want more information. It's one of those like weird ingredients that I really just have a Jonesing to try, the same that
+
+[27:18] I did with hickory nuts, you know, a couple years ago, which I still love. Oh, hickory nuts. And, um, you know, and some other, like, you know, I've never had an actual American persimmon, you ever had one? The wild American persimmon. Anyone that has access. I would like some. I will pay for them. Another one is, I don't know if there are any, but I'd love to try like an actual American chestnut. Are you familiar with the chestnut, the destruction of the chestnut tree? Did you know that the chestnut American chestnut was favored over all other chestnuts in terms
+
+[27:46] of, in terms of its taste? And the wood, it was one of the most common forest trees in all
+
+[27:53] of, in all of the United States. And in the span of 30 years, both the chestnut and the elm, the American elm, which was the most common street tree in
+
+[28:05] the United States, were wiped out due to imported diseases from, you know,
+
+[28:09] from, across, you know, from either China or Europe or some combination of China and Europe. And so the American chestnut tree is wiped out. I mean, wiped because the fung, what the fungus would do is the fungus would attack the tree and then girdle it. So like the fungus would literally like go underneath the top bark layer around to where the growing and the fluid transportation was
+
+[28:28] in the xylum, grow all the way around it, plug the tree up so the tree couldn't get food
+
+[28:33] anymore, and then die out. Now, chestnut trees are interesting because they ground sprout a lot. So what you'd happen is that the main tree would die, then you'd get little trees that would come up, they would survive for 10, 15 years or something like this,
+
+[28:45] and then they would die. That would happen again and again and again. So there are American chestnut trees, but now they're kind of an understory trees. They're a real one, but I don't know if any of those produce nuts. If anyone has access to an American chestnut. I will gladly pay you for it. Also, butternuts, American, it's not the season. When it comes to be nut season, we'll talk more about the nuts. anyway, I don't know what I was talking about, but if you have the liquid M bar, if you have the sweet gum, please let me know. So before we talk about the books, which, because who knows whether I have time, you know how it gets does. You know how I get. Why don't we get to some of the questions? Chris wrote in. I tried fitting the Moses, we got anything on the Twitter yet? these people, these people. I tried fitting this query into a tweet, but could not provide enough info. So I called in, but it turns out you're on travel today, so I'll try an email. I'm hosting a Scandinavian dinner and trying to channel some inner red Zeppi. I do a 10% brine. This is the one I missed last week. Remember? I do a 10% brine 1st for texture and prevent protein ooze,
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+[29:42] rabbit, and birch bark seats. Uh, then uh, uh, boil to soften and kill the nasties in the birch bark, then sous vide to 50 C for 30 minutes. It makes a nice presentation when served on the unwrapped bark and adds a little earthy note. Um, and I'm guessing it's cod, uh, because he says he wants to double down on the cods. Anyways, um, I want to double down on the cod, so I want to create a buckalao cream. This is where we left off last week because turns out Stas, what is it that you hate? Everything? Warm fish foams? What about what about like a seafood, like canal of seafood moose? What? Seafood moose, like Canella seafood moose? like what could be more delicious? What about a seafood sausage? Holy crap. You mean, if I, if I took, yeah, I need it. No, I would eat it because I didn't want to hear it from you, but I wouldn't like it. You've had it before. I don't like it. Yeah, yeah. I don't like it Like a put on a taste moose. What does Mark say about you not liking poached fish moose? How is it that you don't like it? What does he does? seriously What is it you don't like about it? I don't like cooked fish very much. And I don't like it whipped and I don't like it hot. You don't like cooked fish very much. But you like cooked fish as an ingredient like anchovies. All right. Well, so salt cod, can you think of salt cod as more of an ingredient? Yeah, I guess. So have you had the fritters, the bacalaitos, fritters? It's like salt cod dumplings that are fried. It's good. Real good stuff delicious. So you might be willing to try that because the fish is more of an ingredient and less of a main thing. So you might also be okay then with like a brandad, where the salt cod is like mixed into, you're not like my son, booker,
+
+[31:27] you don't like mashed potatoes, are you? For real? Okay. So you might also be okay with like a brand dod where the salt cod is mixed into mashed potatoes, but it's not about being fish. It's about being like an ingredient. All right, so now we're getting a little more reasonable here. Now, a fish moose, you're feeling that it's going to be too much like a cooked fish. Yeah. But you've had it before. All right, so we'll, we'll, I'll leave it there. How the hell did it even come up? How does that come up that you don't like cooked fish? What about what about fish sticks? No. Wait, you don't like fish sticks? Did you ever like fish dish? Yeah as a kid. And then what made you stop? At what point? They're gross. They're they're not gross. You can make them gross. There can be gross fish sticks, but like fried, delicious fried battered fish done is like a revelation. It's one of God's great foodstuffs, battered fried fish. I mean, Moses, Jack? Yeah, we're just saying in here, there's not much better than like fried fish. pretty easy. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's damn simple. I'm not talking like, yeah, maybe you don't like fried tilapia because tilapia is garbage. It's swimming garbage, you know, or maybe, you know, you've had like a bad fried catfish that
+
+[32:37] tastes like dirt. I can't tell, but like a well done, like battered and fried. I don't know, pick your whitefish, like, you know, like, uh, like, you know, cod or place from his, no? No. Because you think it's de classé? No. But you used to like it when you were a kid. I just don't like fried fish. All right, okay. Back to the question. The show's over. Yeah, it's like, I'm too depressed to go on. I'm too depressed to continue the show. I mean, I don't even understand that. Like, how do you... Erica Wydes is in here and she doesn't really like any kind of product like that? But she even likes fried fish. Of course. I mean everybody. fish sticks too. Yeah, because all they are is a not quite as good version of a fried fish, right? So you can knock it on a quality basis, but not conceptually. Do you know what I'm saying? Look, what I don't understand is how do you grow up liking something and then all of a sudden not like it
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+[33:31] anymore? Like, did a fried fish beat the crap out of your boyfriend at prom? What the hell happened? You know what I mean? It's like, how do you stop liking fried fish? It's not that she's a vegetarian, my friends? Because that would, I could say, okay, she just gave up fish altogether. But this lady pounds sushi in Crudo, like, like she could take the whole freaking ocean down if she wanted to. So it's not a question of that. You know what I mean? don't get it. Back to the question. I want to double down on the cod. So create a bakalao cream, 250 mils of heavy cream, 250 grand salt cod, rehydrated, and chopped. 250 grams, russet, potatoes, cooked, blended vitamix, and strain well. You better strain well if you're going to put it through an EC because anything can clog an EC, even like
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+[34:13] little like, you know, too much vanilla seeds. You know, if you get it, clump can clog and easy. For service, I want hot whipped cream texture from this. So I strain into an EC and charge with N2O. I hold it a 50 degree Celsius or 70 no change in texture. It comes out well enough, an attractive film somewhere between shaving foam. I like that word, you like that word it says? Shaving film. Shaving foam. Shaving foam and whipped cream. It sounds like it when I put a bunch of H's in it, whipped, whipped cream, but rather quickly defates into an uninspiring blob. Stas hates blobs, right? What do you hate more, an uninspiring blob or a leaf fungus? Oh, God, you know. leaf fungus. If I dispense from the EC at cool room temperature, it holds its shape well. So the heat is causing the foam matrix to destabilize and collapse. Any suggestions how to stabilize this? I expect gelat will be too soft at 1570. How about Agar Agar? I've also got Xanthan, but that's the extent of any of my monitor's pantry. Thanks, Chris. Either one will work. If you're going to do the agar, what I recommend you do is you make a fluid gel of the agar just a little bit in water. Do a one% fluid gel in water, and dope that in. You're only going to need a little bit to stabilize what you're doing, most likely. Or if you want, you can make an agar fluid gel with the cream itself, but don't make it too stiff in that case. You want it like kind of a like a lighter fluid gel somewhere in the in the in the range of like uh, oh, like
+
+[35:33] uh, 7 tenths of a percent, 6 tenths of a percent, something like this. Yeah, not even. Maybe like, because it's already holding, right? So you only need a little bit of holding power. So I would say maybe like 5 grams per liter on the cream, 5 to 7 grams per liter. Try somewhere in there of agar agar. Xanthan will also do it. You can also do a light fluid gel on the Agar, and then add a little xanthan to it to firm it up. You just want to, here's the big issue. Whenever you're doing an ISI with a fluid gel. Remember that it will hold itself in the ISI. First of all, whenever you do fluid, I'll blend the crap out of it in the VitaPrep, because it needs to be smooth. Otherwise, it's not a fluid gel. just a bunch of little shards of crystals that don't look good. Also, put your finger over the uh, over the dispenser, on the EC whip every time you're going to dispense, flick down, and that'll make sure that all of the fluid gel gets slapped down to where the dispensing nozzle is so that you can dispense properly.
+
+[36:27] Otherwise, kind of no love. But either of those 2 things should work without too much
+
+[36:32] trouble because all you're looking to do is hot stabilize and Agar will hot stabilize easily up to 70 degrees
+
+[36:40] Celsius. I wouldn't go much higher because the agar is going to start to melt in around the 85 in the 80 range. But like if you literally are using a circulator to hold it at 70, it's going to be no problem so that
+
+[36:51] should work. Yeah. You like that, says? Yeah, good answer. She doesn't care. Alex in Toronto rides in. Dear Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. And now Moses. Uh, I stumbled across this video, uh, which there's a link, which you can't see because you're listening to this on the radio, but maybe we'll put it on the uh, we'll put it on the thing. I stumbled across. I'll say a video. How about that? I stumble across a video which describes making a rapid infusion sangria using a cheap, using the cheap vacuum wine savers. Trade name vacuum van. I would assume this will never suck a vacuum powerful enough to compare with the machines you are used to, but I was wondering if you could give me some sense of how this technique could be used by an extremely frugal home
+
+[37:30] cook. The video claims to create an infusion in about 5 minutes, similar to a 24 hour infusion at atmospheric pressure. If this is true, this would be only slightly slower than easy rapid infusion. Any insights, thoughts, or ideas. And here is the link, and this will be useless to you. HTTTP, HTTP, colon forward, forward, slash EDLP, U-L-B-M-U-J-W. Well, it turns out I watch this video and Stas, you will not believe who did the video. It's our boy, Clifford Endo Gulebert, who's awesome. I love that guy. He's like, he's like our, he's our giant pullout friend. And he works now for the Food Network. So if you look up Food Network, Food Network, like, you know, I don't know, vacuum van, Sangria, Clifford, you should be able to find this video. And Clifford actually was one of our interns back at the French culinary institute, and even though Stas was incredibly mean to him when he started to, I believe Stas's exact words when
+
+[38:33] when the, because like 3 or 4 people came that 1st day when he was there, right? And Cliff, like, loves to, and by the way, Cliff is mentioned in the cocktail book because the
+
+[38:42] cliff old fashioned is, you know, was his idea to use that coriander syrup to do the old fashioned. And so he's actually in the cocktail book because we have the cliff old fashion in the cocktail book. Anyway, Stas was like, Stas was like, just like my grandma. we're letting everybody in Literally, what you said. First of all, why are you calling about saying, you feel bad for Cliff or you feel bad for your grandma? Cliff. Whoa. So like still, still throwing some, still throwing some slut down on your grandma. No, no, no. She would like take people in and help, you know, help bore people and stuff. Oh, that wasn't the implication that you gave at the time. He gave the implication that like any guy shows up and it's community chess grandma. That's that's the way Cliff took it. That's why Cliff was like double horrified. Oh geez, no. The clip was like double horrified because his 1st time he's meeting you and it's like, I can't believe that this lady's dogging her grandma this way. And which I frankly couldn't believe either. And then at the same time, like being so mean to him before. And by the way, Cliff, extremely awesome guy, like, you know, artist and like, you
+
+[39:45] know. For the 1st like 3 months, we just had him move boxes. That is not the case. That is not the case anyways. So, yes, so the, uh, using the vacuum van as an infusion technique is a technique developed a long time ago at the French culinary,
+
+[40:00] and, but Clifford is using it to good effect to make a sangria, and he actually, I looked at the video, he's got
+
+[40:04] some, uh, elaborations on the technique that, uh, I don't know. I like his style because similar to, like, the way I was saying things, like, if you see, the average person, like, doesn't pay attention, right? Right? Obviously, like Stas is not paying attention right now. Like, literally right now, so I's not paying attention. That is the biggest crap. Oh, I hate that argument that people say they can multitask. You can't multitask. That's why, like, that's why last week on the radio is, like, say studies, you're like, oh, I don't know, I didn't hear you because I was trying to do an email. You know, you're not multitasking. You're null tasking. People who multitask actually null task. they're getting nothing done It's called 0 tasking. It's a new thing that I want people to be aware of in the world nowadays where people try to do so many damn things that they actually do nothing. Like the fact that people are buried in their freaking phones, which I hate. They're buried in their freaking phones. And when you're burying your phone, right? I guarantee you that the person that you're now texting, when you're with them, you're buried in your phone texting me. It makes no damn sense. No tasking. Do some damn work. This is why people get frustrated with me. They hate me because I don't ever answer emails. I don't return telephone calls or any of this stuff. And the reason is, is because when I'm with you, I'm with you. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, it's because I'm old. It's because I'm freaking old. Back to Clifford. So, uh, so he does a sangria where he puts the uh, the wine and some fruit juice and some sugar, back in the wine bottle, and
+
+[41:26] the, the trick, the whole trick when you're using the vacuum van uh, to infuse things is to chop things small enough so that they can fit into the wine bottle and so you can shake them back out
+
+[41:33] again. And then he then, what I like about it is he basically beats you over the head, which I think is wise, because as I said, people aren't paying attention. So he tells you to suck, suck some more, suck some more, sucks some more. And then, you know, you know, with a vacuum man. know what I'm talking about, Stas? Yeah, what am I talking about? Vacuum man, sucking the wine in. All right, man. So like a 2nd I have to test her like this, like a little child. Like, like my 10 year old. Uh, so you're sucking all sucks anymore. And then he says, and when you're done sucking, sucks some more, which I appreciate. This is good advice from Clifford. But then he has this technique where he says to lay it on its side to
+
+[42:06] infuse. Now what you're doing there, by the way, with the vacuum van, is you're just, uh, vacuum van is not very good at sucking a vacuum, like in terms of the actual absolute level of vacuum that it can suck, but the advantage that you have, if you suck for minutes at a
+
+[42:16] time on it, is that you're constantly drawing air out of the
+
+[42:20] fruit. In this case, he put apples into the sangria. constantly drawing air out the entire time you're doing it. And so even though you never get a very good vacuum, you're constantly removing
+
+[42:29] air from the bottle and therefore you're sucking more and more air out. This is what's allowing the infusion to happen is the fact that you let the air out. So then he rested on its side. And I don't really know why next time I talk to Clifford, I don't know why he tells you to rest a bottle on its side, that's kind of like the elaboration that I didn't, I hadn't thought about before. I don't really know why he did it. We used to agitate it shaking back and forth, but I don't know why he laid it outside. Anyways, I'm sure he's got a good reason. It has to, he tested it maybe, or it's better for surface area contact ratio, something like this. too many warning. All right. So then you pop, then you pop it, which he didn't show. When you pop it, that's when the actual sangria stuff is getting injected in. Uh, and then if you want, you can actually suck another round on it, but I guess the Food Network didn't want to do that because
+
+[43:09] there was too much instruction, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But anyway, yes, that is a technique we can use. No, it's not quite as good as a commercial vacuum machine, but it sure beats nothing. And it's not also quite the same as ISI, which you can use. In fact, we did a sangria Vita vacuum machine. We didn't, but Mara from Booker and Dax did it at the NRA, not the gun version, the National Restaurant Association
+
+[43:31] Show. But I'm sure at the, at the Rifle Association. They would also appreciate a vacuum infused sangria, right? Because what goes better with shooting guns and some sangria, right? I guess beer. I guess like your 1st choice is beer, but then in the summer, if you didn't want a beer, like if you'd already had a beer or you wanted something else and you were going to shoot guns, sangria might be a nice choice. Jack, what do you think about guns and sangria for it? I'm a huge sangria guy. Really? Or a gun guy. Yeah. You don't like... Well, after that shooting that happened this weekend. I don't really think we should talk about that. Stas, Jesus Christ. That's a whole nother show. It's a whole nother show. That's another show. Like the fact of the matter is, is that I'm not going to get into it now because now Stas is trying to make
+
+[44:09] feel bad. Uh, but we will talk about it uh, later. Like, the fact of the matter is, is that Target shooting is fun. No? I've just never done it. Yeah, it sounds fun. Yeah. never done it. I would want to if I had a chance. Yeah. But again, I hadn't even thought about that because I haven't been watching the news, so probably a bad time to talk
+
+[44:31] about it. Now, in the one minute I have left, the books that I was talking
+
+[44:36] about that the Colombo episode reminded me of were the modern French culinary art, which is a version of the
+
+[44:43] Pella Pratt book. Pella Pratt was one of the was one of the great cookbooks. He was the guy who started the Court and Blue Cooking School in the 1800s, and he wrote this book, which I think came out in the 20s or 30s at the end of his career, and it's kind of one of the key kind of cookbooks. It's awesome. In fact, Jacques Pepin listed that as one of his favorite possessions, was his Pella Pratt when he was an apprentice in his book, The Apprentice. It's an amazing cookbook, fantastic. And the best edition for English speakers that I've ever seen is the one that was put out in the 70s by Virtue and Co. And I bought it back in the day at the Strand. Strand, bookstore, you know, like 15, 20 years ago, wasn't air conditioned. And so you walked in there and everyone was viciously mean to you. And but there also wasn't a lot, like things were really cheap. They were like half price off the cover and there wasn't a lot of searching about and trying to figure out the true value of a book unless it was a real collector's book. So you could get things ridiculously cheap, ridiculously cheap. And so I was there looking for, uh, LaRusse Gestron on me, because one of my one of the cookbooks that everyone coveted back then, books that everyone coveted back then. So I would go to the strand and search out good editions of LaRusse because all the editions are different. And I bought, without really knowing, Peloprat,
+
+[45:49] and this this issue, this edition from Virtue, and it is freaking amazing. It's got all of those pictures in it. And all those pictures were shot in the 70s. So it's kind of this amazing window into this book that was written in the 30s, 20s and 30s with like all of the color pictures that you get from a book that was
+
+[46:04] printed in the 70s, but it hadn't been mangled very much because it was not, it hadn't bent to the will of like Nouvelle cuisine or any of the other stuff
+
+[46:10] that, you know, was had or was going on. So it's an amazing record of that time. I then saw there are other books, buffets and receptions, which is, oh my god, ridiculous. And some of the stuff in Columbo also in that is like, you have to see this book from the 70s. Uh, and then uh, the new international confectioner. These are the 3 kind of books from them, and they're still ridiculously cheap. I recommend going out and buying them. And then in advance of this, I went out and bought just this
+
+[46:37] morning because these books aren't, most of these books aren't collectible yet. So they're still extremely cheap. They're fat, fat, fat books. And if you love looking at old, like, awesome, like, like continental and French books, which you should, if you like anything that's kind of interesting, because they're just sick records. meat dishes meat dishes in the international cuisine. I just bought that for 2 bucks, cost me $11 to ship it from England, garnishing and decoration. I don't know if that one's as good, but I bought it, fish and shellfish, the complete book of meat. And the only one that so far is collectible. Herring's dictionary of classical and modern cookery, which you can still get cheaply, for Virtue and Go, this is cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[47:25] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This special program was brought to you by the dairy farm families of Wisconsin, the Wisconsin milk marketing board. Did you know that today Wisconsin produces more than 600 varieties,
+
+[0:10] types, and styles of American, international style, and original cheeses that win more awards than any other state or country?
+
+[0:18] To learn more, visit eatwisconsincheese.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:49] Every Tuesday from late, really late today, huh? Son of a gun. Well, supposed to be around 12 to about 1245. Speaking of, uh, 1250. I dont know. What time? 1250, Jack? Yep, 50. Well, we got 50-55. We got we got our boy, the fearless leader of our of our network, Patrick Martins, has a book coming out soon. And he's he's coming in to talk about it, man, around 1240 or so, right? Around 1240. So we'll round out the round out the program with a little bit of discussion of the
+
+[1:19] of Patrick's new book. So I'll do that later. Also, we're being we're being brought to us by Wisconsin cheese right now. Wisconsin milk marketing board, yeah. Wisconsin, but you know, like I was thinking about, if you were to actually count all the cheese heads as like a separate cheese
+
+[1:32] variety, You'd have 100s of 1000s of varieties of cheese in Wisconsin. You know what I'm saying? You know, sweet cheese heads. Everyone loves it. You know, I used to have a cheese head hat. I don't know what the hell happened to it. Remember that we used to have the cheese head hat at FCI? It was originally Jeremy's, who was from Wisconsin, Chef Jeremy, who then, like, kind of donated it to us, and then somehow, I think someone stole the cheese head hat. You can't keep one around. People love the cheese head hats so much, even though they're viciously uncomfortable because foam rubber hats are just like so uncomfortable. You ever wear a foam rubber hat for any length of time? You want to take that on as something you're going to do, like wear the foam rubber hat for a long time? Yeah. We shouldn't spend too much time on it, but I did learn recently that cheese head is a racial slur toward the Dutch. Ooh, well, they make some Dutch style. They make some Dutch style cheeses in Wisconsin. So maybe that's, I don't know. in Wisconsin. It's no parts racial slur. Who said it was a racial slur against the Dutch? The internet. The internet. And did was there any actual, like, angry Dutch person somewhere? I mean, I'm sure somewhere. Yeah. It's just, you know, there's like a database of racial slurs and it was listed. German soldiers used to call the Dutch cheese heads. is what they say. Well, in in in German? K's a cult? Oh, we got to call her. Yeah, all right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's David from California. How you doing? Yeah, good. I got a question about pressure cookers. Um, I'm up at altitude and, uh, I can't use, uh, I really can't use an electric pressure cooker, so, is there some way that, uh,
+
+[3:02] is there some way that I can, uh, get a setup without getting 2 DIY, uh, that I can, uh, I can sort of have a setup that I can walk away
+
+[3:13] from that I can, you know, set for, Um, uh, my, my, my pressure that I need and then walk away from it, uh, but have that extended uh, pressure that I need at my altitude. Right. So 1st thing you have to do. So, I mean, so obviously at altitude, you can use even like an electric pressure cooker to get to the temperatures that we can down here on
+
+[3:38] our, on our, you know, low altitude setting, right? The 1st thing you need to do is you need to calculate the uh, the pressure difference between where you are and uh, and sea level, right? I mean, what you need to, what you need to do is you need to figure out how many, how much excess PSI you need to get to that same temperature.
+
+[3:57] What? Three PSI. Three. So you need to pull about 18. You need to do about 18 PSI, relative PSI to be getting to my to my atmospheric levels down here where I am. Yeah, okay. Now, there's a couple of ways you can do this. All of them are obviously not recommended by the manufacturers, right? So on the electric pressure cookers, like, uh, the cuisinart, you can, they're not actually sensing, um, pressure. They're sensing temperature. So you can mess with it, right? I posted an article on that once. I don't necessarily recommend you go and do that because, you know, risk of danger, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I've seen that article and that's above my head anyway. So then the next 2 like depending on, I don't know of a good way to alter the Fagor
+
+[4:52] style pressure cookers that have the little twist knob on them. I don't have a good way to modify those, but if you use
+
+[4:59] old style jiggler weight pressure cooker, so Iwatani used to make them, American pressure canter still makes them, right? American pressure cancer is interesting. Like, the problem with it is it's aluminum, and so if you're going to do a lot of acidic work, some people don't don't like it, some people don't like cooking
+
+[5:13] in aluminum, and also, like, a lot of them are very big, but the American pressure cooker,
+
+[5:18] canter, corporation. They're the only people that have a gauge that I really trust, right? Now, they're an old jiggler style, which means that it's going to be venting, which is not ideal, right? Because, you know, if you've read my stuff on pressure cooking. I don't really like pressure cookers that vent, if you're going to do things like stock. That said, that said, what you can do on any sort of jiggler style is
+
+[5:38] just, um, what they're fundamentally doing is they have an orifice of known size. And then they put away a certain weight on it and by doing that, they know kind of at what pressure the steam is going to force the weight off the top and then have it sprayed down,
+
+[5:53] right? So what you can do is increase the weight. So if you're going to have like an American pressure can or situation, you can just, you know, add weights to their jiggler weight. And in fact, the American pressure canter is nice because the jiggler weight has like 3 different holes that you can
+
+[6:09] use, and they have 3 different weight settings, depending on kind of, you know, how hard it needs to push that to go up. So you take the highest one. And then you add enough weight. It has to be down low, so it's not off center or anything. And then you look at the gauge when it starts venting and you can set it to, since you only need 3 PSI over pressure, right, you can do that because none of the safeties on a pressure cooker are going to start engaging until well over 3 PSI over their
+
+[6:33] limits. All right? Now, you've talked about the the pressure sterilizer before, and I was looking at that, um, is it, have you ever tried to control that, uh,
+
+[6:47] with a, uh, an induction burner? Um, yes, but not, I didn't try very hard, right? So, yeah, you can, you can put a pressure cooker in, uh, in a, in a, in a temperature controlled oil bath on an induction burner and you can do it, right? So the question is, if your induction burner is good, is pretty good, right, then you, you know, let's say it
+
+[7:14] can with, you know, it can maintain, you know, plus or -4 or 5 degrees, then you could just use the sterilizer, uh, or even, uh, you know, like
+
+[7:24] a like a heavily modded, uh, regular one with a jiggler and just, uh, yeah, and have it just go to that temperature and you can verify that it's reaching the
+
+[7:32] temperature. by looking at the gauge. And I've had, I would say, moderate success. I was using it because I wanted very even heat transfer when I was doing custards on, I was trying to do pressure
+
+[7:43] cooked, uh, durian custard, and I was never able to succeed and remake the one batch that I made by accident one
+
+[7:49] day. still a lifelong disappointment for me. But, yeah, you can do it. But I think, you know, you're going to be easier, um,
+
+[7:58] like on a repeated basis, just being able to try and do it on a
+
+[8:03] stovetop, uh, by modifying that that jiggler weight. Now, if you if you're moving to something like a coon recon, right, in a coon recon,
+
+[8:11] the uh, the pressure is determined by the um, spring, there's a, there's a spring that, um, there's a spring that force it, that you push down, right? Uh, sorry, there's a spring that pushes the uh, the valve down, and as it, as the pressure increases, it pushes from the inside, against the spring, up, up, and you see 1st ring, and then you see 2nd ring, and then after the 2nd ring, you still have more pressure, and then after another, you know, amount of time,
+
+[8:41] then the coon recon starts to vent out through that valve, right? My guess is that that venting doesn't happen until around 3
+
+[8:50] PSI overpressure over the 15. So I'm guessing you could probably get 18 out of a coon recon before it starts venting, although I'm not sure. Now, here's where things get hinky, right? You could, you could put a stiffer spring into that coon recon thing or, and I'm not saying I recommend this, you could perhaps stretch that spring to give it a little bit of a permanent set, so it's a little bit
+
+[9:14] bigger so that you have to put more compression on it to get it to the right pressure levels, but unless you have some adequate way of measuring, let's
+
+[9:24] say, using an oil bath for measuring purposes beforehand, right? Then if you had an oil bath to measure beforehand, you could set it to a temperature that you knew was 18
+
+[9:32] PSI, which I forget, the number's going to be somewhere around 250 something Fahrenheit, right?
+
+[9:37] You could see where it hits. You could stretch the spring out a little bit, reassemble it, and then put it at 250 and see where it hits on the valve and figure out roughly how much you've adjusted the pressure that way.
+
+[9:50] Does that make sense? Yeah, okay. I mean, I don't not I can't recommend any of this crap. But if you have a good induction burner, I would set it to about, do you remember, do you happen to remember offhand what the temperature is for atmospheric for, sorry, for 15 PSI at
+
+[10:05] sea level? It's like 250 something, right? Yeah, it should be 250 pretty much on the dot, right? Yeah, somewhere around there. So I would, if you have something, like, let's say you even have a, uh, well,
+
+[10:16] you could, you could do with a circulator, actually, set it to, just don't do it in plastic, right? Set it to, uh, to don't, I mean, if you have an old metal circulator, I should say, uh, set it to 250 Fahrenheit and, uh, you know, put the thing in the oil bath and just wait a while and see, well, well, let me start this way. What kind of pressure cooker do you have? Uh, I have a Kung Ricott. Okay, good. So set it, set it, you know, in that bathroom. If you have an induction burner that can do a pretty accurate 250, set it, uh, with, you know, with like, you know, it's not a lot of water because you don't want it to take a long time to heat up, you know, like, you know, like, you know, a finger or so of water, wait for it to heat up and see where the where the pressure thing
+
+[10:52] hits. And if it hasn't made it to vent level yet, if it's just like, you know, it's over the 2nd ring, but not quite venting yet, then you can kind of figure out where you are, then obviously let it cool down and do your
+
+[11:04] modification. The good news is if you hose it, you can buy that spring and it's not that expensive. Like that spring, you can buy it from Coon Recon. I've had to buy parts from them. I forget whether you have to email them directly or not. But I know an interesting thing. You know, maybe we should ask someone like Coon Recon to make a special spring for people who cook at altitude. You know what I'm saying? Because for them, it would cost nothing. That would be that would be nice. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you'd be able to tweak it. But, um, why don't you give that a shot? And if you could call back with your results, I'd appreciate it because I'd like to know whether things like this work.
+
+[11:39] Yeah, I, I, I'd like my coonery con to work. I, you know, I'd be willing to get all American uh, sterilizer, uh, if I need to, but. They're a little harder to work with. I mean, honestly, I've only used the really, really giant one and I use it because it's really giant, but it's not nearly as, you know,
+
+[11:58] it's a lot more of a pain in the butt because it doesn't have any gaskets or gasket
+
+[12:02] list, which is good for some things, but not necessarily good for ease of just using a pressure cooker all the time because it's got these little
+
+[12:09] screw dads that you screw down. It looks like you're like a submarine bulkhead or something like this with these like screw dads that you have to screw all the way around. You have to make sure that they're ceiling, because if you don't, you know, do it like you do a tire lug nut. If you don't like go across in a star pattern, you can like torque the lid of it. And, you know, they are aluminum. I mean they're really good at what they're good at. And the gauges are really good, but I don't cook with mine. I use I use it for experiments. So if you can get your coon recon to do what you want it to do. I would get your coon recon to do it what you want. You might want to buy a spring 1st and then dork with that spring so that you're
+
+[12:42] not like high and dry in case you do something horrible. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's not an expense. And also, if I don't know, like, you know, I often disassemble my coon recon for cleaning, so it's pretty easy to get to the my memory is it's pretty easy to get to the spring. You just unscrew the, unscrew it from the bottom, hold onto the thing, unscrew it from the bottom. You should be able to pop the entire assembly out for cleaning. And there's just no way of taking a direct temperature measurement in the
+
+[13:10] Kung Rukong. There is, but requires drilling a hole through it. Okay. You know, the other or temporarily disabling one of one of its safeties. So, like, there's a there's a rubber safety plug in the side of a coon recon. a little blue silicone rubber plug. You need to replace it every once in a while anyway. Mine blew out. That's what I knocked knocked in at the lab like a year ago and like sprayed chicken grease all
+
+[13:33] the same. Remember that stuff? Remember it well, right? So if you get an extra one of those plugs? You can under, like, drill that plug, but under, like, only a little bit and then shove a thermocouple through that plug down into your product and do a direct measure of temperature.
+
+[13:47] But then you're going to want to throw that plug away and put a fresh plug in when you're done. I mean, that's a, I wouldn't run it all the time that way, but it's a temporary way to get it exactly where you want it.
+
+[13:56] And again, those plugs aren't that expensive. So if you get a rebuild kit from Coon Recon, they'll send you the, if you tell them what you need, they'll send you that plug. And again, I would drill out your old one because it's always nice to have a fresh plug. you know, they'll probably send you a new gasket at the same time. I forget exactly what I got, but I got a complete rebuild, including the stem assembly with a spring. I got the, uh, the plug and everything. Or you could just get a new plug and measure the temperature right before it starts to
+
+[14:23] vent so that you could, you know, do it without any spring modification at all.
+
+[14:27] You might be able to get the temperature you need with no modification, you know? Okay. But you see, you know what I'm saying? You understand what I'm saying about that plug, that little that little blue plug underneath the, if you pull up
+
+[14:37] the, uh, the coon recon come with a plate that fits over the top, little, like little rattling plate that's meant to deflect steam down should all crap, you know, go
+
+[14:45] wrong. I lost mine years ago, so I don't have one of those plates, but then, you know, on that little thing
+
+[14:50] on the inside is a blue, as a blue silicone plug that is removable from, it's removable by popping it out.
+
+[14:57] Okay. All righty. Let me know. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. So, okay. Alright, let me know how it goes. Okay, thanks, Dave. Appreciate it. All right, cool. Alexander? Oh, wait, we were talking about, says? Uh, nothing. We're talking about cheese heads, but... Oh, yeah. we're done. Anyway, my point is, my point is, is it like, I would like any Dutch person to call, to call in and say whether or not they're actually offended by, uh,
+
+[15:26] by. a challenge. That is a challenge. I want I want someone who's actually legitimately offended by this to call in because I don't think that such person
+
+[15:33] exists. We have a caller and he's in studio with a book. All right, hold on a sec. We have Patrick Martins in the studio. What? Hey, what's up? Nothing. And he's here hawking the Carnivores Manifesto, the new book by Patrick Martins, with Mike Edison, who, by the way, was the editor-in-chief, I believe, of
+
+[15:53] High Times. Yes, he was Yeah. And but then also did a bunch of, he'd done a bunch of other good books with, right? He wrote Joe Bastanich's restaurant man with him, which was a New York Times bestseller. Yeah. It was about the underbelly of the restaurant world and what it's like to open restaurants and it was a fun book for him to write. He also told me that Hugh Hefner hates women. Hugh Hefner hates women and he hates to Hefner. He's worked with all of them. Who's the guy from Hustler? I forget a lot of... He loves him. He loves all those guys, but he never liked you. Well, he said that, you know, for whatever else you think about Larry Flint, right? When there's many things you could think about Larry Flint, He said that Larry Flint legitimately, not when I say likes women. I mean, I don't I mean, I'm not going to try to portray Hustler as, you know, a paradigm
+
+[16:36] of, I mean, put it this way. Larry Flint enjoys the company of women. That's what I mean to say, not likes them in sort of a, you know, reasonable way. I see what you mean. Yeah. Well, yeah, he, uh, he's really been on that dark, dark underbelly of, uh, of life, of culture. And that's why I thought he was great guy to partner with for the book because I was not looking to do a traditional. Oh, this is sustainability, and these are labels that you need to be looking for at the supermarket.
+
+[17:01] They're basic truths out there. Uh, you know, gastronomy. Carlo Petrini always said gastronomy is not a strictly opinion thing. There are facts in gastronomy. Some things, you know, that's why 95% of all cheese people think
+
+[17:14] Parmigiano Regiano is the number one cheese in the world because there's certain agreement about that. Yeah, although, although, you know, that's something that's been cited so many damn times and I don't... I don't understand it. The best cheese for what? It's not the best cheese to like, to like, you know, put on a piece of bread when you're eating it. Right. I mean, Parmigiano is an amazing, amazing cheese. I love it. I, you know, but I hate all sorts of best, best this or that. Like if you were gonna... I mean, what's the best cheese to have with a glass of port? It's still, like, I think everyone agrees that. The best cheese they have with a glass of port, Stilton. Well, I do agree that certain best top things are bad, but like,
+
+[17:50] you know, I don't like top 10 lists where if you do top 10 restaurants in New York City, the top 10 should always, that should be the same list every year with rare exception that someone gets bumped on or comes on or
+
+[18:03] bumped off. And so I do know what you mean about picking the best, but I like to know what's the best terroir for wine in America. We should start ranking those things. Because if we're ever going to see ourselves, like France does them and Italy does them, we have to look at ourselves as a gastronomic mosaic around the USA and
+
+[18:22] recognize expertise where it exists. Georgia makes the best peaches, as does Western Michigan, as does Ohai. But New Jersey, that's not the best peach. And by the way, for all the talk about the best tomatoes coming from New Jersey, I don't know if they actually
+
+[18:37] taste it. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Now, you're telling me that you've had a better tomato than either the Aunt Ruby's German
+
+[18:47] green or the German or the German stripes from Stokes? Is there any tranes? Yeah. Well, that's a good question. I can say I crossed the line here, but I mean, I think that's better because it's local, although I do have a chapter in my book that
+
+[19:00] says eat the best, not the local. I mean, I think I agree with you, like, on one level, I agree with you in that, I think what Europe has done really well is, say, look, here is a product that has certain
+
+[19:13] characteristics, and let's let's, like, enumerate and preserve these quality characteristics, right? So, in other words, like prosciutto, you know, department, like, we can all agree what the best prosciutto de
+
+[19:26] parma is in stylistic terms, and let's protect that and like give it a label that makes sense,
+
+[19:32] right? It's not saying it's the best ham in the world. It's just saying, you know, Within Parma, there's a hierarchy. Or there is a particular style. It comes from here. We're the best at it. You can't make it. You know what I mean? Is that, I mean, I think that maybe we're agreeing. Yeah, maybe we do agree. I think we agree on most things. I agree. So, yeah, I think you'll agree when I wrote one chapter was called Alphabet Soup, and it was about your Museum of Food and Drink, and I, my last
+
+[19:57] line, our museum. Thanks for making me the vice president. I did say it's a giant leap for mankind, and it really is, because I was saying
+
+[20:06] the fundraiser the other day. You know, if you had said it was 1600 and 2 guys like you and me were sitting around. and be like, let's do a museum that involves animals and all that. Like, what should we do wild animals from Africa? And is that the future? Or do you think food museums is the future? Back then, almost everybody would have said food museums is the future. And yet, not only has it not been the future. There is not one food museum in the world. They can maintain itself, right? And there is a natural history museum in every major city in the world. So it's just funny, how it's 100% to zero. There is not one food museum that's like a real big picture food museum. It's a travesty. It is a, it's crazy. Who would have ever bet their money that there would not be one food museum. But that was just one chapter in the movie. So let's talk a little bit about the carnivores manifesto. Is it out right now? It comes out on June 10th, and unfortunately, you cannot buy it on Amazon because my publisher, Hatchet. Is that more with Bezos? Oh, you're the time ever. It's gonna be over soon. Oh, it was last time that you never know, but either way, you can buy it on Barnes and Nobles.com or most importantly, you could support your local bookseller. Or can you buy it from Harry's radio? Yes, it will have copies for Heritage Radio. Of course. Five from here. and then the radio station makes the, makes the, the profit. The profit, yes, that's true. That'll be a huge, huge financial. So let's but let's talk about this. I'm presuming that this Amazon thing's going to blow over because that's bad for both Amazon and the publisher. Well, Hatchet is put down the hatchet. They said we will not tolerate this type of price pressure anymore. And so they are, you know, this sounds like one that could last a little longer than last time. So you're telling me they're mad as hell and they're not going to take anymore? Yeah, they're just not going to take it. So let's look at one of the chapters. You mentioned it a little bit, but when you were writing the book, we were talking, and this is kind of the one that's going to generate the most heat for you
+
+[21:53] personally is a 3rd chapter to hell with local. Eat the best. And so, uh, it's my my invitation. Thank you. So, I mean, this is a really interesting thing because usually people, and this is something I
+
+[22:07] hate kind of about all commentary of all subjects everywhere. Uh, is uh, someone who thinks about you and thinks about uh, kind of heritage uh, foods in general is
+
+[22:20] gonna, they paint paint you with the same brush that they paint everyone, who is involved in the kind of, or was like the, for instance,
+
+[22:27] the one of the founders of Slow Food USA, which you were, right? Paint you all with the same brush. That is, you're all locivores. You all believe, you all have a unified, uh, you all have a unified view of what uh, good food is and what's important and, you know, what we should be doing, not the case.
+
+[22:42] I think the average person, like this person here that's drinking some sort of iced coffee outside the studio, if I were to ask them whether or not you or someone like you would be a, like a confirmed locivor, they would
+
+[22:54] say, yes, but in fact, no. Some food was never about eating local Carla Pacino founded soap food. If the best anchovies came from Sicily, and the best lentils came from Puey, France, and the best, you know, whatever. I mean, he would go anywhere around the world to get the best meal he could. And whereas he always wanted to reward local terroir and local gastronomy. In fact, he was probably the major reason that Barbaresco and Barolo's became so powerful in the mid 80s, early 80s, they were terrible wines, late 70s.
+
+[23:27] He was a big proponent. So you should always try to reward and improve your local terroir, but by saying that,
+
+[23:34] you know, no offense, New Jersey has the best tomatoes when perhaps another region, or let's say peaches, it's just not the case. You're actually propping up a 3rd rate product. You're hurting the farmer, you're hurting your own gastronomic
+
+[23:48] experience, and I just think it's important to be the best. And to recognize that each region of this country makes certain things. I mean, would you eat? I know pigs that wouldn't even hunt for local truffles in Oregon. You know, they would refuse to hunt for them because they're not very tasty. Listen, I'm not going to get in the in the in the throwdown on Oregon truffles. They're not the same, clearly. It doesn't mean that they're bad. There's not the same. But you shouldn't need a organ truffle and be like, this is a fantastic truffle. Shave these and use them like you would truffles because it's local. That's ridiculous. They have a long way to go, and maybe they shouldn't even be focusing on truffles. They should be focusing on other things that the climate is adapted for. You know, and I just think local is a distance. It's not, I guess, gastronomic term. Local is just a distance. Is there any moral problem to buying stuff at a distance if you can afford to pay for
+
+[24:40] it? You know, I mean, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I think, you know, money is a big thing. I have a thing, one of my chapters is 140 turkey. I was gonna ask you about that. To claim, you know, the $140 turkey. Well, let's say the $10 turkey, the $22 a pound turkey, it ate, genetically, it's been manipulated. And the most important chapter in this book is called Survival of the Faddist. These big corporations, they breed for genetic
+
+[25:11] misfits, if it leads to more profits. So they suffer on that level. They are so sick from their bad genetics. They're forced to grow so fast, so much faster than they can, that they need antibiotics, pumped into their feed just to survive. That's an unhealthy turkey. People shouldn't eat that. And whereas we're not perfect, and we know it's always a slow turning of the
+
+[25:35] wheel, and it's not an overnight thing, to tell a poor person that they should
+
+[25:39] eat, an unhealthy turkey, is classist and borders on racism even. I mean, it's a it's a classist thing. The poor person should be told the same thing that the rich person is told. You will be unhealthy if you eat that turkey. Now, everyone eats a BLT with bad bacon in it that comes from a
+
+[25:58] cural system. We're not a utopic book that, you know, we understand about reality, but the rich person should be told the same as the poor. You don't have a dual standard for what you tell them. And if that one, that turkey is a sick turkey and is unhealthy for you, that goes for rich and
+
+[26:14] poor. We might have to eat less meat in this country. That's an answer, but we certainly should never make a different argument. to someone because of how much money they have in their bank account. An unhealthy animal is an unhealthy animal. And this is the, okay, this is... It's a long and tough argument, which we should have against. come back on again to have an argument about this because it's hugely, and this is like one of the museum topics in general. It's hugely difficult. But on more personal level. I mean, I think right now, I mean, I think it's obvious that, you know, the average person, you know, where everyone in the family, if there's more than one adult in the family has to work, you know,
+
+[26:51] more than they would have, uh, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, for less money, and they want to put food on their table, there's a huge disincentive to
+
+[27:00] spend, um, culturally. just talking about meat. This is the carnivore. No, on meat. But like, you know, if you want to be, if you want to be, you know, a member of America, have your kids not think that they're living in privation, right, then, you know, the
+
+[27:14] the image of American cultures, that we have, you know, the meat on the table. You get the chicken when you want it, you can have the beef when you need it. I mean, this is like, this is still like the cultural, uh, you know, ideal of what it means to be a semi-prosperous American. So it's very difficult to tell someone that they shouldn't go buy a product that makes them and their family feel like they're doing well or doing okay.
+
+[27:37] You know what I mean? Well, I think it's more important the way you are inside the health of your body. I mean, Temple Grandon just came out with the statement that said 80% of all, between 20 and 80% of all chickens arrived to the slaughterhouse already injured because of how unhealthy their bodies are. Those very same companies dump a lot of the industrial waste from those farms into
+
+[28:00] rivers. So if a poor person eats that chicken, they are complicit in a crime, a crime that I commit to all the time, but they need to
+
+[28:08] know and everyone needs to kill that elitist argument because we should all strive for the good chicken. And to tell everybody, anybody that they shouldn't. Now I understand you should also strive for meat on your table to be part of the American thing, but we also can't
+
+[28:23] uh, unwittingly shield the robber barons from criticism, the Goldman saxes of the world and the produced. I mean, look, the problem is, is that I think nobody argues that there's a whole bunch of externalities that don't show up on the price tag at
+
+[28:37] Walmart. You know what I mean? to producing a chicken, let's say. Uh, there's a, but the, you know, the issue is, is that I think it's very hard to, it's very hard to get people to change, uh, if the price, if the price tag remains the way it is and the externalities to producing the crappy chicken or crappy turkey, uh,
+
+[28:55] don't, like, make their way down to the price tag. I think it's a hard problem to solve. Well, it is a hard problem. I mean, I personally think pasta is, and we said there's a chapter in there. These are all 52 page essays. So, you know, they're very short essays in the meatball shop. They do it. That dinner at the meatball shop competes with the dinner at McDonald's. If you order one of their value menus, you know, like 650, 595. Meatball shop. Also, what about pasta? with ragout on it. You're using small amount of meat. Yeah, no, it's yeah, definitely. That's the truth. That's where we have to get. In fact, I write in the vegetarians, you have blood on your hands chapter that this might be the greatest manifesto for vegetarianism ever written because of how critical we are of fast food.
+
+[29:39] Do you know Temple Grand works for McDonald's? I know. And in fact, I think that now, to be fair to Temple, McDonald's has co-opted temples, good work at the
+
+[29:51] Slaughterhouse. And by the way, all those animals are killed very well at McDonald's, but they co-op her good image to give the impression that everything they do is good.
+
+[30:01] When in reality, the her real effect is on those last few minutes of the animals. And that's hugely important. But the rest of the time they're deforesting. They're deforesting the Amazon, they do all these terrible things. Those animals are pushed to grow faster than they can than they should. And naturally. That's why they're cardiovascular. Skeletal respiratory systems cannot grow that fast. I've heard stats that a chicken at slaughterweight is the equivalent of a 349 human. When we start doing that to our livestock, and that's a lot of the percentage of the meat we eat in this country, 90%, 95%, something like that. That's a fact, and survival of the fattest, not the fittest, is a real issue that I think this book brings up, and I, in fact, learned it from Frank Reese, our poultry guy, who was doing this from an ethical perspective, and he's chosen to fight that fight by growing chickens that are not compromised genetically for
+
+[31:00] profit. There's a difference between genetic engineering and you know, what farmers do. Farmers' brew for certain things too, but they're looking for a balanced animal, one that could survive in nature and reproduce.
+
+[31:11] So this argues for that market. It also does not try to deny the fact that we eat 11000000000 livestock. We need 11000000000 livestock in this country. So we should start thinking about how those animals are raised. So, uh, to ask you one more quickie before we go. So, you know, one of the reasons that, uh, you know, that the meat that, you know, you sell at a heritage costs more
+
+[31:34] than, um, than, you know, crap crap meat. Not only, uh, is the, there's a scale on which it's done. Do you believe that 15, uh, 20 years from now, it will be cheaper? Yeah, not as cheap as, not as cheap as the crap meat, but do you think it will be cheaper per
+
+[31:53] pound because you'll be able to have better distribution routes, things like this, things that make that kind of thing more
+
+[32:00] economical? No. No, I don't think it will be. I think there might be some efficiencies that come up that bring the cost down, but I learned that from
+
+[32:08] Carlo Petrini. He says no, to raise 50 pigs, they grow slower. That's one. So that means they live longer. That's true. So you have to feed them more. And just so you know, a turkey is normally a very
+
+[32:20] discriminating, discriminating eater. So what do they do on the corporate farms? They cut off its beak, so it can't pick. So all it can do is use its beak as a shovel, and they keep the lights on on the indoors. It never sees the outdoors. They're all artificially inseminated. So no sex is ever happening on this farm. So they have turned their face in unelective surgery into disconfigured
+
+[32:45] shovel. so that it can shovel their antibiotic ridden. This is an animal so sick that they need medicine in their food just to survive their
+
+[32:52] life, and they arrive to the solder house injured. No, it will never be that cheap. That is too cheap. That is playing God that is pushing it like the Nazis did. That's a Nazi-like thing. And I hate to say that word, but it's true. going Hitler on. Well, I mean, Purdue and stuff like that, and they never say no antibiotics because they can't. Those animals would die in their little barns there before they got to wait. So you don't even think it will ever become cheaper. I'm not saying cheap ass. You don't even think it will be cheaper. No, cheaper. Yes, I said, some efficiencies would happen, and I hope that, you know, people get into this idea of buying whole lamb.
+
+[33:28] You know, you can't get the best lamb in this country and order it in pieces. You pretty much have to commit to a half lamb cut into pieces, but you commit to the lamb. So you know what I mean? Yes, it's still an uphill battle, otherwise I don't think it'll ever be as cheap. I do think it will be a little bit cheaper and you can save money by, I say, cooking pastas, buying whole animals. And by the way, I think corporate things. I mean, McDonald's, that's still a $67 meal. A pasta is a half that price. So I know that one's going out and one's eating home. But still, it's not absolutely. It also depends on where they, how much, you know, d-buy the good oil, do you buy the Parmigiano Reggiano price uppity up, uppity up, you know. No, I mean, I just saved for meat. So I understand now, if I was making the argument that food should be more expensive all around so that we don't do this and that, that would be a problem and I would be
+
+[34:20] wrong. But I think when it comes to meat, this country just has to eat a little bit less meat. But the way to do that is to embrace the fact that we eat a lot of meat, not to try
+
+[34:29] to 1st question that any sustainable meat conference, should we eat meat? We do. 11000000000 livestock. Come on, let's get with the program. I'm one example, but since heritage food started in 2004, I see dozens of butcher shops and other distribution systems, the answer is starting to push at the gates. And I'm going to, I sense that things will be
+
+[34:51] cheaper and uh, but never, never that cheap. Cheaper but never cheap. You'll never be cutting off the beaks of turkeys so that they get fat in a 3rd the time as they are intended in nature.
+
+[35:02] That's one of my things, sex cells. Another thing people forget. Sex, animals that have sex. Turkeys are only available for eating in November, ducks and geese. How come everyone in Charles Dickens book was always eating a duck and a goose in Christmas? Because that's when cycles of the earth, earth orbiting around the sun, that's when nature gives us those animals, but we artificially inseminate everybody. And that AI, artificial exemination is how they're able to control and grow these kind of freaks is because they find a chicken so disfigured, they pull his genetic, pull
+
+[35:33] him from the flock, not to remove him from the flock, but to artificially inseminate the next generation with his genetics.
+
+[35:39] Maybe that's how I was made. Probably. But you were genius. They picked the greatest genius and they bred him with another genius. So they're going to kick us off the air in a sec. We do have one caller that's been waiting. Okay, I'll take the caller, but Pat, Patrick, one of the things that you mentioned quickly is that each, like, this is a pow, pow, pow, pow, book, it's like
+
+[35:57] 2 page essay, so... Two page, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, which is Middleweight fight. which is very much like Patrick himself. Why don't you stay around here for, because we have a caller, we're going to take really quickly. Call her, you're on the air. Thanks, dude. Hey Dave. It's Brandon from Chicago. Hey, how you doing? No, thanks. I've got a question about sous vide, barbecue and cold smoking. Alrighty. Um, so I would like to make some smoked products, uh, and I don't have an actual smoker. I do have a smoker box that burns pellets, and it kicks it out pretty well. I'm pretty pleased with it. Uh, but I don't really have an environment where I can use that and also keep the heat below,
+
+[36:36] say 215 because I'm using my gas grill as sort of the, uh, you know, place where all the smoking happens. Wait, so you have a box that attaches to the grill, like a, like a, like whatever they are, Brunson or whatever,
+
+[36:48] they attach it to the side of the grill via, via like a port? No, it's a little tube. It's made by amazing products. I don't know if you've heard about them before, but you just, it's like a drilled out box basically. Um, that you, you put the pelt in and you just sit it under the grill brakes and uh, and just let it
+
+[37:07] go. Right. Um, so it does a pretty good job. So, uh, my dilemma is that I'm either left to sort of cold smoking at sort of ambient
+
+[37:17] temperatures or going above 200 degrees and getting, uh, you know, outside
+
+[37:23] of uh, sort of temperature range where I'd like to, you know, if I'm gonna smoke sous vide meats. So I was wondering if you were going to do some like sous vide, smoked pork belly or like a sous vide pork
+
+[37:35] shoulder. First, would you smoke it before you put it in the bag or afterwards? Uh, and then if you were gonna do it before, how do you deal with having raw meat sitting around, uh, for
+
+[37:48] hours, just, you know, kind of at, at ambient temperatures, doing cold smoking? How long is it, how long is your, how much smoke do you want to put on? How long do you need to have it in the cold smoker? And are these commodity meats or heritage meats? Like 4 to 6 hours maybe? I don't know. like a lot of smoke on it. Yeah, I mean, you could, like, what some people do is they'll, they'll, they'll put the meat on, like, uh, you know, like, or over a bed of,
+
+[38:12] like, uh, ice almost to keep it, like, even below ambient, like, they'll put, like, a, a rack over a sheet tray with ice and then let the smoke go around
+
+[38:18] it, and then, uh, you know, the ice isn't directly touching the food, but you can actually keep the temperatures down, like, to where it's, you know, fairly
+
+[38:25] safe. Um, that's one way to do it. Or, you know, but the thing is that if you're going to smoke cold, I would definitely do a nitrate or, you know, nitrite-based cure so that you would inhibit any possibility of botulism happening during a cold smoking procedure, anytime you're going to cold
+
+[38:43] smoke for any length of time, you want to ensure that you're not going to have botulism problems.
+
+[38:50] Now, if you're going to do sous vide afterwards, even if you had caused some, you know, some botulism growth on it, you're
+
+[38:56] gonna, you're gonna, you know, if you cook it properly, sous vide, you're going to destroy the toxins and destroy the vegetative cells, you obviously won't destroy the spores because you can't do that with
+
+[39:06] CV, but that, you know, that's 11 way around it. But if you actually want the full sous vide texture of it, then I would
+
+[39:13] do, I would do it before and cold. Now, if you, if you want to sous vide it all the way through and you can do a hot smoking fairly quickly, right, then you can, you'll overcook the outer sections of the meat, but you can get a good smoke on in a very, in a shorter amount of time, if you do, if you start, uh, if you do
+
+[39:30] a, like a sous vide, cool it all the way down, you can have it almost at, you know, fridge or below temps, pull it out, let it, you know, let it dry off in the fridge so that it gets a little bit of a pellicle in the fridge instead of the
+
+[39:39] smoker, right? And then throw it in your smoker cold. And then you can throw a hot smoke on it pretty quickly without overcooking through and then do the rest of the retherm
+
+[39:48] in, you know, in a lower temp environment and do it that way. So it's all a question of how long you need to smoke it and how cold you
+
+[39:55] can, you can keep it. But if you're going to do any appreciable cold smoking, I would definitely nitrate it or nitrate at first. nitrate it, right? Would you do that in a, so I usually bronze stuff before I do this? And I put in about a gram of uh, in secure number one per kilogram? Uh, do you think that'd be enough to, to, you know, kick out the, the botulism
+
+[40:19] in the nasties or should I up the, in the, Brian, should I up the percentage? Uh, the insecu- insecure one is the one that's, uh, it's not mixed. using the pink stuff, right? I forget what the, I forget what the, yeah, I forget what the ratios are, but like any one of the charcuterie books has like brine
+
+[40:34] levels and I would just use the same amount of insecure that you would use in like a bacon-based brine recipe.
+
+[40:40] Um, you know, unfortunately, like I do it so rarely that I don't have the numbers in my head, but like I would just consult any, you know, fundamental charcuterie
+
+[40:50] manual. Don't obviously consult the ones that are advocating nitrate nitrate free stuff because they're probably not then going to do something like a cold smoke on
+
+[40:59] it. But anyone that has, you know, a brine recipe with
+
+[41:03] Instacure should give you like a decent ratio. And I would just stick with that. I wouldn't, especially, you know, if you're doing it, um, you know, if you're doing it yourself, I wouldn't worry about
+
+[41:10] going like a little bit over, it's not gonna, not gonna kill you as much as botulism will. All right, well, thanks. I appreciate it. All right, thanks. Let us know, you know, tweet us or call us and let us know how it worked out for you. That's what I was going to say. All right, we'll do. I was going to answer just like you did. Really? All right, cool. All right, so listen, we're going to have to go now, but I will say what I didn't answer that I will answer. Rob Treypaz called about fiddlehead ferns and ostrich ferns, actually very interesting, like potential poisoning problems with ostrich ferns that are undercooked.
+
+[41:40] I done some research on it, and I'll get to you next time. Nigel Olsen, Nigel Olsen called in. gluten-free, gluten-free, like shoe pastry, and guess who we have on next week, Stas. Lena Klock. Yeah, who is the founder and the chief everything officer of Cup for Cup, the gluten-free flower that is that Thomas Keller is also selling
+
+[42:02] that their company is called Cup for Cup, and she will be on the show next week. No one will ever call her a clock. So I'll I will I will wait to answer your question until then. And Ken and Gramercy talked about chewy crust in his pizza. I have a lot of stuff to say about that, but I'm going to also try to get either maybe I'll try to get Jeff Steingarten to call in on that. What do you think? Because he's the master of the chewy crust. All right? So those are the questions that I didn't get to that I will get to next week. And Alexander Saunders on the way wants to know, what is a word meaning a soul wrenching need to sear something, but frustration at the inability to do so. Perhaps something German. Tweeting your results, cooking issues.
+
+[42:47] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local,
+
+[0:06] national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Ages. is Day Arnold, your host of cooking issues, coming to you pre-taped. Pre-taped, right? Styles are going to be pre-taped on the Heritage Rator Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you happen to have gotten our message that we're pre-taped today, you can still call in your
+
+[0:50] questions 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Today we have a very special guest in the studio. We have Lena Quak, who is the founder of Cup 4 Cup. Uh, gluten-free, like kind of like the best known, like, so for years. For those of you who have celiac or perhaps you are one of those people that, for some reason, I don't understand, just reduces your gluten intake, even though you have no problem with it. Um, you know, one of the issues has been that there's been no very good kind of
+
+[1:25] uh, straight replacement for wheat flour that works in, you know, a variety of different recipes. And one of the reasons is because weed flour is kind of a miracle. So, uh, you know, uh, Lena was at, uh, well, I let her tell the story. welcome to the show. Hi everyone. Hey, how you doing? And, of course, we got Stasia here, and we got we got Jack over in the booth, and we
+
+[1:48] have Lindsay actually, Lynn's publicist. So why don't you tell me a little story about how Cup for Cup came to exist? And correct me if I'm wrong, it's like the only decent one on the market, right? I don't know if I'd say that, but we definitely focus on quality control. All right. Give me a little bit of the story. So I actually interned at the French laundry right out of culinary school. And one of the things that I noticed was that the chefs work about 14 to 12 hours a
+
+[2:17] shift. And so these are really creative creative individuals and they had no time to experiment with all of their innovative thoughts. And so I wrote out a proposal at the end of my internship to create a position,
+
+[2:31] R&D chef at the French laundry. And the chef at the time, Corey Lee, he actually took this concept and took it to Thomas and I was accepted as the R&D chef. And from there, I did a lot of diet restrictions for diabetic dishes and then also gluten-free and
+
+[2:49] vegans and with a one dish that really resonated well with the chefs were the gluten-free bread.
+
+[2:55] And so from there, we started developing products because people were coming in and crying over pieces of bread because they haven't had it for 7 years. And with about a year and a half , we dove into this project and started developing a gluten-free flower line. Nice. So now I think something that people might not understand. I mean, probably listeners to this show understand, but like how much
+
+[3:18] care, you know, restaurants, you know, at this level take with people who have, everyone knows that chefs hate when people have restrictions, dietary restrictions.
+
+[3:27] Every chef hates it when someone has a dietary restriction, right? They hate it. They hate it, but you know, it's one of these things. There's a divide with chefs. I feel like they are the chefs who, you know, it is, it is their style and they're as artists, you know, they feel so passionate about what they serve.
+
+[3:42] They want to change anything because it is their piece of work. However, there are other group of chefs who understand also there's, it's an experience, you know, and everyone has a preference as an individual. So who are you to also tell an individual how to eat something. You know, and so there's 2 schools, I don't believe one or is better than the other. However, you know, for Thomas, It's really about how a guest takes in that
+
+[4:05] experience and he wants to make it everything. He doesn't want to dilute anything just because you may have a restriction. So he wants to elevate that whole experience for you. Right. I mean, I think one of the reasons why a lot of chefs hate people with, not hate
+
+[4:19] people is very, it's very badly played. One of the one of the reasons that they they get all hot and bothered when someone has a dietary restriction is, and this is what I think people don't understand is that they are worried. It's not as... I mean, sometimes it's just ego, but a lot of times I think the chef is worried that the person's gonna, it's the same as when someone asks for their steak well done. The chef just worries that this person is actually not going to have a good experience at the restaurant because now the chef has to cook something that the chef doesn't like or chef doesn't respect or chef doesn't know whether the quality is the
+
+[4:48] same, and they want the quality to be as good, no matter what they put out. They want to be proud of what they put out and they want all the customers to have, you know, the best possible experience. And I think it's the nervousness that they're not going to be able to do that in the face of certain dietary fictions that gets a lot
+
+[5:05] of a lot of chefs bent like a pretzel, but the, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that
+
+[5:10] the, and the more kind of high end, more expensive restaurants are, the more typically they'll bend over backwards to try to accommodate this stuff if they can.
+
+[5:17] Absolutely. And, you know, I think I completely understand how chefs take this as they want to guide someone's
+
+[5:24] experience to the level that they understand as experts, what's going to be the best way to present one dish. But at the same time, those people who have certain, you know, specific needs or, you know, they don't particularly like certain things, they're not
+
+[5:38] going to allow themselves experience that the way maybe a chef would like. And so rather than fighting that, I think it's just give people what they want. You know? They're coming in to have a certain level of expectation when they sit down. You know, they're paying for their meal and I really believe that, you know, you have to accommodate people as they come in because they are your guests, you
+
+[5:59] know. Now, when you're trying to develop something that is gluten-free flour that works for kind of any application,
+
+[6:09] right? I mean, there's a lot of issues with that because a lot of recipes, right? Use one aspect of wheat flour, and a lot of recipes, use different aspects of wheat flour, and very few, very few things, uh, you know, act
+
+[6:27] like like wheat flour in every kind of situation. So how did you, how did you go about taking up this kind of a, how did you approach this kind of a problem? God, I'm so glad you brought this up. I can give you a hug because it's so hard to really explain to people, you know, that flower is such a complex single ingredient. You know, if anything, because of my research development through this. I've had such a deeper appreciation for flower and it's performance. But yes, there are different types of wheat flour that people don't really always
+
+[6:56] consider. People always call in a butt cup for a cup. Can I make bread? And yes, you could formulate, you know, a recipe using that ingredient, but it's not going to perform the best.
+
+[7:06] Bread flour well because it has higher gluten content. And even all-purpose flour is different from bread flour. And so I think it's very hard for people to understand that there are different applications for just regular flour that, you know, with
+
+[7:22] Cup for Cup, what I really focused on was what were people missing the most from
+
+[7:26] baking, was cookies, quick breads, pies, biscuits. I felt like that was what the home cook was looking for. So I really needed to develop something that was more like pastry flour, if anything. However, able to perform in different recipes as a multipurpose. Right, because none of those applications rely heavily on gluten. In fact, a lot of those, a lot of those applications, people try to shunt out the gluten in, you know, in a lot of ways. So, you know, those are kind of good, good applications, but, um, even frying also, it works better
+
+[7:59] with uh, like tempura batters because there's no gluten that's going to cause it to be a soggy fry batter. Do you like tempura? I don't, me personally, I don't like to eat a lot of fried, but I definitely like
+
+[8:11] crispy. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think Tenpura. going to get yelled at by somebody, but like it's one of those things that I think that, you know, everyone thinks it's the most, like, like many,
+
+[8:22] like, very tweaked out Japanese techniques, people think that it's kind of the height of the
+
+[8:27] fry. And I just, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I mean, I think that I think that, you know, I've had some very good tempura chefs make stuff for me. And I'm like, yes, this is good. Do I think this is the height of fried? No. No, I like the shatter, like light fry. Sometimes I don't even like a batter, actually. I like it when it really is a very thin, shattered fry. If you're talking about specific frying methods. So tempura is not my favorite, because it might be a little thicker, but I've had a wonderful tempura before. Yeah, yeah, it's good, but then it's like also like you need to eat it instantaneously. They underfry it, so it's so freaking blonde and it's like, you know, it's whatever. I don't want to, don't give me a start. get me started. So the, uh, no, but the, so but like a lot of the applications that you say, and I think this is the way to hit things that people miss the most, because a lot of people, they're going to bring up bread, the most difficult. I mean, the most difficult. But even bread, you know, it's one of those things that, ah, it takes such technique and years of experience to make good bread, you
+
+[9:26] know? Um, and I, again, it's not something that we're not working on, it's going to be a lot more work than just pastry flour. Right. Now, aside from the gluten, the actual starches, like, in other words, wheat starch works differently from other kinds of
+
+[9:41] starches and for many reasons, right? One is because of the different kind of the actual texture of the flower when it's ground, the granule structure, right? And then there's how the how the actual structure it is. Now, the reason you can't, let's say, just do all rice flowers, because it acts totally differently, and it will be like a rice bun or a rice noodle, which is not what people are looking for, correct?
+
+[10:03] Completely different, you know, and I'll walk through their ingredients. So we have cornstarch, which really acts
+
+[10:09] as, uh, when you think about flour and its performance in a recipe. It's a filler, you know, it really is the body of, um, the body of the recipe in a baking
+
+[10:19] formula. And then you have rice flowers that is going to provide more of a textural difference because cornstarch is just too fluffy. And then the other ingredients are really for elasticity purposes. You know, how do you bind because that's what flour does as well. It binds and it will be able to, within the baking process, how steam and everything works hold its shape. And so that's really how the formula goes. So what are the other ones? You have cornstarch, you have rice. What else you got in here? We've got tapioca, potato starch, xanthum gum, and milk powder, which is another thing that is really important to point out.
+
+[10:52] It adds tenderness. A lot of other gluten-free flowers. They have eliminated dairy because they want to, it's a larger market when you do dairy-free, gluten-free, everything free, you know? But for us, when we decided this, if I took out the milk powder, it was going to be less performing flour. milk solids, right? So there's no lactose in it. No, there is. It's a skim milk powder, you know, and it's very crucial to the baking process. will create a tender crumb. No, milk proteins are awesome. Yeah they really are. But okay, so you have the potato, which swells fast, right? Yes. And then you had, what was the other one? tapioca. Tampio. is weird. You ever cook the straight tap yoga? That's a strange. It is, but it does give that showing, showing, showing. Yeah. That's no joke. No joke. I mean, have you ever had that Brazilian cheese bread? No, I've had Portuguese, like corn cheese bread, like broa? No, it's um, I'm blanking out what it's called, but uh, it's this, it's made with the cassava
+
+[11:54] root, so tapioca. Oh yeah, I've had that stuff. And it's delicious, but it's fried and it's all chewy inside. Yeah, no, it's just good. I used to have to, when I was doing work on puffed stuff, you know, years ago for the blog, I was doing a lot of tapioca
+
+[12:07] doughs, man, they're a pain. especially like they're just like really a pain. They're really pain because you also have to heat them up and then you're working with like galop and
+
+[12:15] then them. Well, so heating up, you bring a good point. So when you're doing, when you're doing a dough that doesn't have any gluten in it, I mean, one of the things that, you know, we always used to do is just pre-cook some of the
+
+[12:26] starch because, you know, when you're working without the gluten, things tend to be kind of like a sandy agglomeration of things, they don't tend to dough up on
+
+[12:34] you, they just don't. So, like, the question is, is do you have some pre-cooked in here as well without telling me, like, how it works or is it we able to do it without any pre-cooked stuff? No pre-cooked. Because one of the things that was difficult with this process because when we developed the French laundry, You know, French laundry really source from smaller, you know, farmers, um, just our resources are more, you know, local. And for us to go out to a market and provide nationally, we really
+
+[13:03] need to start digging into resources that we could find large volumes for.
+
+[13:10] And so pre- pre-cooked starches, we don't work with them. Yeah, because they're easier to work with, right? They are easier to work with, and they're a little more stable, however, the volume of it. It's just not there. Now, I see you have one here called Wholesome that says it's dairy free. is a dairy free product. What do you have in to make up for the dairy and net sucker? So the wholesome flour is actually our 1st response back to the public.
+
+[13:35] People are really looking for non-GMO. And what we found was it's really in the category, they're missing whole wheat flour. And so this is a solution for the whole wheat, flour, nutrient dense performing. So no milk powder, but what we did add was ground flax seeds. And so flax seeds, you know, with a little bit more fat. It adds a little texture and also creates that, I guess, textural difference in the quick breads and pastries. It does absorb a little bit more water like whole wheat flour does. So. Oh, flaxseed likes to absorb water. That's that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, flaxseed. I did a, well, man, I don't even want to get into flexing. I mean, presumably it's not like a lot, a lot of flax seed, right? No, but it definitely has its share. So it has equal parts of fiber as whole wheat, and then also has omega fatty
+
+[14:26] acids to contribute by the flax seeds and rice bran as well. Did you know that some people like soak and grind up flax seeds and eat that gummy pulpy stuff on purpose just like as is? Did you know that? So I was going through a week of like healthy after eating too much and I was going to grind up some. I was like, oh, I was just throwing flax seats into my smoothie. Don't ever do any more than 2 tablespoons. No, I mean, it's just freaking like it's a freaking gummy nightmare. I mean, it's a natural. Yes, yes, fiber, hydrocoloids. It's all great and stuff, which is, man, that is some, man. So, how many, how many, how many flowers do you have in the line now? You have... So we have the cup for cover original line. So it has a pancake waffle, pizza, chocolate brownie. And then our wholesome line, which is actually in stores now at
+
+[15:17] Waim Sonoma. It is we're going to look to extend it and release 2 other products behind it. Okay. Now, you just came last night from Del Posto, Mark Ladner is a big fan of being able to make all of his
+
+[15:31] pastas gluten-free, and he uses cup for cup. Which one does he use? The OG? Yes, the OG. Yeah, he uses the OG stuff. Now, he actually tasted you out last night on all the pastas, right? It was amazing. And I, you know, I had heard about Del Posto about a year and a half and just all of the oppressive receive with the gluten-free pastas. You know, I hadn't had a chance to meet Mark. And, you know, I ran into you guys last weekend. out of, you know, coincidence. Yeah, by the way, we judged a pint. I think we talked about. We judged a... We didn't talk about it. So Nastasia and I went out to UCLA and we were judging a not a pie eating contest, pie making contest. Pie making contest. Two people, I, we're not going to say, I'm not going to say anything positive or negative about the cause because, you know, just in
+
+[16:17] case, just in case. Well, but yeah, they're like, school, she does, like, school years over. These kids, they're like freshman sophomores. They're not listening to this stuff. They don't know. But like, uh, so we had to eat like something like 22 pies and, you know, 22 pies, you know, and, you know, thankfully,
+
+[16:31] like you can have gluten if, you know, you happen to have created that, like, the one kind of gluten-free, like, you know, replacement flour, but you actually can consume the gluten.
+
+[16:40] So we were eating these pies, and for some reason, we didn't, like, the, like, one of the best pie crust there. Like, I don't know, like, my face was buried in, I don't know what the hell happened, but, you know, you had advocated for this. Oh, I stuck up for them. I totally did and I got chewed out, but... It was totally, you were totally right. And then later you were like, I can't believe it. I was like what? What? And then this nastasia never is gonna freaking let me forget the fact that I let, 1st of all, here's what happened. Like, okay, okay, okay, okay. So they have this class. What's the name of the class at UCLA? remember? Ah, well, I know the event was the food and science, but I don't know what the name of the class was. Yeah, Professor Robot out there. Yeah, she has a class and she teaches it. And so, you know, one of the things she does is, you know, you're supposed to like learn
+
+[17:26] some science, like come up with an experiment and it's based around making apple pie, right? Which is great. It gets the kids, you know, really excited about making
+
+[17:34] pies. the 1st time diving into it. Yeah, but all of these freaking kids, like not enough salt in the crust. Oh my Jesus. Not enough salt in the crust. People, when you make pie, put salt in the freaking crust. I was like, how much unsalted like crust did you have to eat? Because I think like it's like, I think this is, I was yelling at someone else. Like all the chefs, we were talking about this before. All the chefs are like, me, me, use unsalted butter, right? Unsalted butter. But the problem is, is then like people who, like, maybe, like, they use a recipe that was written for salted butter. don't taste the crust or whatever. It doesn't have any salt in it. I really think someone has to publish an article about how chef's pinch technically is. I think about a tablespoon. If you think about it, And that's why people always, when they say a pinch, they take maybe half a teaspoon and they
+
+[18:20] throw it in. See, that's the thing. People just need to taste the sun, the thing, and see whether or not like it tastes good. People don't know. Here's another thing. Like, uh, you know, as any of you know, like the, I read that book recently, sugar salt fat. And I have some huge issues with that book. Huge issues with that book, written by Moss, right? Because one of the things is he's like, do you know that do you know that corporations try to make their food taste good? You know what I mean? like, what? What? And my point is, is that especially I think he falls flat in the anti-salt
+
+[18:51] stuff, because you cannot make decent baked goods or decent ice creams without
+
+[18:58] salt and like people don't know how much salt is in a decent dough.
+
+[19:04] Like when I was growing up, McGee told me there's a there's a famous bread book writer who used to cook at one of the schools and was one of the bakeries out in San Francisco. I forget his name. He came out with a book maybe 4 years ago. And he says that over the past maybe even 12 to 15 years, like salt levels have gone up in all of the artisan breads, at least in the west coast. Because I used to, you know, do like maybe like a percent and a
+
+[19:25] half. People are closer to 2% on bread. Really? Yeah, dryweight bases, dryweight, flower weight bases. You know, and so, you know, I'm still, you know, back at Weasley one. 5 . you don't need that much in a pie crust, but something, some salt. Well, you have to think about, you know, flavors is it's the same thing as composing music. If you were to only use one note, how flat would that be? But if you add different beats to it, it's really going to accentuate the sound of it and really focus. And then same thing with flavor. So I actually had a double post, so this great, um, it was a dried apricot sorbet, and he
+
+[20:00] had, he had dusted it with a little salt on top, and it just brightens everything. So you really need that offset flavor to really highlight the
+
+[20:08] dish. Yeah, like unless unless you have salt, sensitive hypertension, like salt,
+
+[20:13] your good buddy for flavor. You know what I mean? So anyway, so like they undersalted their crust. They undercook their crust in general, right? They did, but you know, I will have to say it was a really fair stab at everything. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so what happened is this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like, tell the grandma story. So like, I rooted for you guys. I just want to let you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's what happens. So this one, this one crew was working on cooking the apples, that was their shtick, the thickness of the apple slice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cooking with calipers was the name of their their their shtickamajig there, right? And so they're like, okay, so they they're like, well, our project wasn't about the crust. So for the crust, I just did grandma's crust. I called my grandma like a real ass. Is this a real live grandma or is this some sort of bull crap you're trying to tell me? He's like, no, this is a real life grandma. And I had the crust. I was like, damn, if that crust ain't good. Like, that's a crust I want to eat because they had, they had, like, they had coated the top right, it had the little bit of sugar, they had crusted, it was beautiful,
+
+[21:10] like, it was cooked all the way through. It was actually flaky. It was like... I think that was the only pie I gave a 5 out of 5 when on the chart that we had to sign
+
+[21:18] off. where you were like, would you give this to someone with no, like, questions to ask? I said the pie cross. Yes, you know. Yeah, those guys got hosed. got nothing. They got they got rippety-doo. they didn't even they got honorable nothing. They got hosed. Mainly because I was sitting there trying to sift through my freaking papers when it was going on and like we were confused over who, you know, which team
+
+[21:39] was I'm sorry, grandma's pie people cooking with calipers. My fault. My fault, my fault. All right. So let's go on to a quick question we had last week from a reader about gluten-free. Nigel Olsen wrote in, hey, Dave, and Nastasia because he didn't know you were going to be on. I love your show. I've been a listener since day one here in Napier, New Zealand, North Island,
+
+[21:58] East Coast, right by the Pacific Ocean. I've been an avid follower of your work. Um, you guys seem the logical people to ask. Could you help me come up with a gluten free issue? I guess, I mean, solution? Solution, right? That's solution. Yeah, solution. I plan on making profiteroles, cream pro, seclairs, that sort of
+
+[22:13] thing, for sale, our local farmer's market. I'd like to have a gluten-free option available, but I'm not sure what flour alternative would have the gluten-type strength to sustain the shoe pastries expansion during baking. Now, choux paste will be interesting because it's pre-cooked, right? And so you get to you get to mess around a lot more with stuff with the shoe pastry than you would otherwise, right? Are you in New Zealand? No, we're not. But you know what? What really works with the choux pastry is if you use a blend of different rice flowers. So you're going to have to use a blend of brown rice and also white glutinous rice to kind of get that sticky dough. I would say probably... Same thing, though, like cooked butter and then beat the egg. Blend in your rice flowers. I would probably test around 50% of both white and brown rice. And then, um, and use it as weight with a pâte a choux pastry recipe. That's what I would say. And it's going to be okay. It's not going to have that weird like look see-through rice thing. It will, but you know, I'm just thinking half the time I had without going into, you know, the formulation of cup for cup too heavily, if it is just for pastry flour, I have seen rice flour blends work
+
+[23:28] well, because you're able to cook it, and then it has enough of that starchy quality, it'll roll into a ball. And because there is enough steam, it will steam up and
+
+[23:40] you want that hollow center. So I would say rice flour would be the best bet for the easiest, you know, you don't have to try it out. Yeah, I'm sure the like people who write into this show, they don't want easy. If you're going to do difficult. Would your stuff work well on a shoot pastry application? Absolutely. Actually, if you look up cup for cup? Um, shoe pastry, people have done several different variations of recipes using this. Right. But your stuff not in New Zealand. No. Sorry. No. No. Well, anyhoo, so yes, it can be done. And what, and the, you know, one of the things that you, like, the benefits you have is, like, one of the more difficult things I'm told about working with, uh, you know, non-wheat flowers is
+
+[24:20] the, is the fact that the does don't cohere so well, but because you're going to cook the crap out of it beforehand, you win. Yeah, I think shoe pastry will be a, it's going to be an easier one to figure out with rice flowers, definitely.
+
+[24:32] What would you add to it to have it not be so ricy? That's the thing. Yeah, you're right. You know, I would definitely add a little bit of cornstarch to give it more of that filler, you know, but you're
+
+[24:44] going to need the most of it as the body is going to be the rice. Now, when people are doing the stuff at home, do they try to add stuff that's got like a little more of that nuttiness, right? what do they add? They add like buckwheat or something, but buckwheat doesn't act right, right? No, buckwheat doesn't act right. You know what I like to do a lot, too, is toast the flour. You really are able to taste that nutty flavor from it. Yeah. So dope in a little bit of the corn, but he's not going to need any of this other stuff like tapio. He's not going to need that stuff. No, just because you're going to cook the starches and it's going to be already such a hard, like, glob, you
+
+[25:18] know, you're going to, you're going to be able to get that without having to use tapioca, potato, anything else that's going to cause it to retract.
+
+[25:25] Right. potato is super swell. Now, the, the other thing is for the, for the rice flowers. You can just get brown rice flour. The so this is the difficult part. When it comes to gluten-free flowers or flowers in general, there are so many different variations of one type of brown rice, you know, you could get
+
+[25:46] pre-gelatinized, you can get certain different grains, you know? the starch structure, you know, from crop to crop, it will change, you know? And so you, that's what's going to be really difficult sourcing, you know? And, um, it's going to be, it's hard for me to say like one specific is going to be better than the other right now. Right. And also, like, you know, for instance, like not harping on them, but like Bob's Red Mills, uh, like, like
+
+[26:12] their, their rice flour, I think I've had a package of that once and it feels totally different from the stuff I buy, you know, in Chinatown, which is like a powder.
+
+[26:21] It's almost like rice. It's almost like starch. It's so powdery. Well, what I noticed is, so that was one of the flowers that we tested with, Cuffer Cup originally, and the Asian flowers, they go through a different process.
+
+[26:33] So they soak the grains and then they mill it. So that really produces, um, a definitely a different flower that has more moisture content and it performs completely differently from like American starches because we don't go through that
+
+[26:48] process here. Yeah, because also, like, I've had terrible luck with rice,
+
+[26:52] like, grinding your own rice, but, oh my god, it's horrible. Like, it's... Did you actually do it? I tried. Yeah, back when I, you know, back when I, you know, people, you know, whatever. I try anything once. But like grinding that stuff, it's just like it's like little pelletous nightmares. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't, it's not... I'm actually having any good luck milling my own wheat flour either. I mean, I have a I have a, you know, a grain mill, but it's, I don't really like it very much. And like the really coarse, the really coarse, uh, like whole wheat. It's like, it's like, just a killer. Yeah, you need that. I mean, you need that intense equipment to be able to support that grind. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I love whole wheat flour, but not the stuff that I make. No offense to me. No offense to me. Wait, so Jack is telling me we're already host. We're already hosed? Oh, man. All right. Well, listen. We were pre-taped this week. So I swear, Rob, next week, I will talk, do you like fiddleheads firms? Yes. Did you know this is very strange. So the fiddlehead fern that we eat is ostrich ferns, right? So we don't eat bracken. Although apparently in Asia, many people eat bracken and people have eaten bracken in
+
+[28:06] the US for millennia, you know, Native Americans have eaten bracket, different kind of firm. like, don't care. Uh, but like the, uh, but the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, Bracken has some well-known, um, has some well-known carcinogens in it, like the most well-known is, I can't pronounce it, but it's like
+
+[28:22] Taquila side from something like this, right? In fact, some people think that this may, like consumption, high consumption of Brackenfern might be the reason why there
+
+[28:32] is, everyone's looking to figure out why more people get esophageal and stomach cancer in Korea, let's say,
+
+[28:37] or, you know, places around there. And so a lot of, you know, some people have pegged it on like the inordinate amount of kimchi that's consumed. But then some people were like, hey, how about the bracken? Like we all know that Bracken, you know, has cancer causing agents in it. But I don't think it's that readily eaten that much in high volume where it
+
+[28:55] would affect it. don't know. Because I heard it was because, like, the stomach cancer, right, was a lot to do with alcohol consumption. You think? Yeah, because I think it's the population 80% aren't able to
+
+[29:06] consume, they don't have the enzyme to break down alcohol. And so they still consume it. And that's also contributing to the high rate. Right. So the pain, the pain about it is, right, that that, that there, you get 2 copies of the gene, right? So like most uh, Caucasian style folk like myself have 2 copies of the stuff that, you know, for the alcohol dehydrogenase, it can break down alcohol like nobody's business, right?
+
+[29:28] Then you have like a whole, uh, you know, a whole like Asian consort of people who have no copies. They're the ones that are going to go bright red when they're drinking, right? And then you have people who have one copy that don't go bright red. This is the research I read. They don't go bright red, so they consume alcohol, but they're more likely to get
+
+[29:47] damaged, like having cancer and stuff. So it's like that middle ground where you have one copy where it's like Dangerville. I wonder if it's the same, because also the Irish population also, because it's the dilation of your capillaries where that's why you're turning red. But I wonder if it affects different cultures as well. I don't know. I don't know, but I will try to research more of the bracken stuff, but the ostrich firm, strangely, just in the past 10 years, people have had these weird food poisonings happen from undercooked
+
+[30:17] fiddle heads, real ones, ostrich ferns, but nobody knows why. And so, uh, the good news, Rob, is, is that if you were going to get poisoned, it's not a cancer thing, you would have gotten poisoned within about 12 hours. But so you're good. But yeah, people do recommend that you cook your fiddle heads, like overcook them, in fact, like way overcook them. But I'm going to look into it more and I have a lot more information I can get to you next week on, and unfortunately, I thought we would have time to get to Canon Gramercy, because he had a chewy crust problem with his pizzas. And we could talk about that because I think, you know, one of the issues I think people, you know, you know,
+
+[30:54] like when I was growing up, everyone, all they worried about with flour was protein content, right? No one was worried about the way it was milled, the milling fractions of it, and like how the hydration is affected by how the flowers milled. But anyway, we're going to have to... So important for bread flour. But you know what's a quick solution? Go buy cup for cup pizza. Oh, boom. And with that, we'll have to leave it. cooking issues.
+
+[31:20] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[31:28] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] From simple to gourmet, nothing's fresher or tastier in recipes
+
+[0:04] than homegrown, fine ripened veggies and savory herbs. Do you grow your own? With bonny plants, a kitchen garden at your back door or in containers can produce an amazing harvest for cooking and for sharing.
+
+[0:17] Find how-tos, plans, and more at bonnyplants.com. Your recipes might not change, but your results sure will. Fresh, healthy, bonny veggies and herbs. Get growing. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org with 1000s more.
+
+[0:46] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. Ashley coming to you live from a Birth of 33 in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, Some of that, guess who we have in the engineering booth with us today, Stas? Joe. Joe. Joe, how you doing? I'm doing great So it's filling in for Jack today. Joe coming back for a guest slot in the engineering, but it turns
+
+[1:13] out we thought that he just hated us and that's why he left, but turns out maybe that's not the case. Yeah, I'm here to say I'm sorry. That's what I'm here for. Oh, nice. How's the, you know, Joe's Joe's front man for a band. The big ups. How big ups doing? Good, good. That was part of the reason why I was gone. I was on tour for a whole month in Europe and it was great,
+
+[1:31] but so now I'm now I'm here. tour's over and I'm back where I started. Hello, everyone. Where's the, where in Europe did you tour? It was UK for a week and then the Netherlands and Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Belgium, yeah, all over
+
+[1:48] the place. Oh, so a couple things. One, where the Dutchess tall is there, as everyone says they are? There were a few very tall, slender Dutch men that I met, yes. Yeah, nah, nah. That's what that's one of the things they're known for. That, the wooden shoes, the licorice. Yes. Actually, probably the best food also that I ate. Really? Yeah, surprisingly. They actually, most of the countries we went, they didn't really eat green things at all. So that was good to get some nice fresh vegetables. All right, now, when you played in Belgium, did you cover Bedlam in Belgium? No, unfortunately. Maybe next time. Yeah, next time. We're going back. Yeah, that's that, I think for all you ACDC fans, I believe Bedlam in Belgium might be, what is that?
+
+[2:32] Is that on flick of the switch? What that on? Anyway, it's not one of the better loved or better known ACDC songs, but I love any, like anything where, you know, ACDC is like crap on the cops in
+
+[2:44] Belgium, stopping me from playing a show. Yeah, they wrote a whole song about it. Yeah, yeah. Bedlam in Belgium, and they don't pronounce it Belgium. They were like, bed, lamb, and Belgium. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to play that for you since we don't play copywritten material anymore, but before you ACDC fans out there. You know, a lot of people give ACDC crap because, like, a lot of their music sounds the same. I mean, assuming, you know, all right, Bon Scott, the original singer died and then you got your, you know, your Brian Johnson afterwards, right? But aside from that, like, where it's like, well, all the music sounds the same, but then, you know, Angus, who's, you know, you know, uh, you know, their guitars
+
+[3:19] there and, you know, one of the guys has been there the whole time. He's like, well, if it sounded different, it wouldn't be an ACDC song, would it? You know what I mean? Yeah, what do you, what do you want from ACDC besides ACDC? Yeah, I don't want, I mean I don't need ACDC to do a Neil Young song or a Neil
+
+[3:34] Diamond song for that matter. Neither of those things needs to happen. ACDC can just be ACDC all the time. And I think that's, you know, that's kind of good enough, don't you think? I agree. Yeah. All right. So, uh, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Oh hey, I didn't say how it does yet. How you doing? What's going on? Nothing. That's a lie. I was just doing our expenses and I saw the smoke detector expense. Oh, yeah, we had to, in order to get insured as a company, even though it's just
+
+[4:05] Stas and I working there, and really no one cares if we go up and above the smoke or not, but in order for an insurance company
+
+[4:11] to, uh, to, you know, rate us. We had to put smoke detectors in our space, right? And unfortunately, fortunately, our ceilings are like, what, like 12 feet tall? We're tall, you know, typical New York, like, you know, tall storefront kind of a situation. And uh, so I was like, oh, this is going to end poorly. So I install one downstairs, it has like a 3 foot ceiling and then upstairs where you have the 12 foot ceiling, I put one
+
+[4:34] in. And like literally the very, I'm not 12 feet tall, by the way. a slant, tall, slender Dutchman. It's not how it works. But so, literally the very 1st thing we tried to cook, right? Like, I turned on the sear is all was like 10 seconds into putting a sear down on a steak. Weep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Thousand are like, yeah, yeah. Cooking detector, freaking cooking detector. So we smashed it off the ceiling in about 2 seconds. We put it back on. If an insurance company is listening, we put it back. Yeah, we did. ish, ish, ish. I'll tell you, what needs to happen is, there needs to be, we've had this discussion many times on the radio before, but I think one of the
+
+[5:14] main, one of the things, Okay, here's why a lot of people don't cook. right? especially apartments here in the city, right? One, uh, they, no, they're busy or they don't know how to cook, right? That's one. Two, they don't know how to shop in a way that makes it effective or easy to cook, right? I guess maybe that's changing with the whole, you know, online delivery stuff. Do you use that stuff? No. Just for parties? No, I don't. I'm gonna use it at all. I thought you used fresh direct. I don't use it. It's like an 8 hour window. I buy what I need. I'm very efficient when I shop time wise. Like, I know exactly where all the stuff is and all the markets that I buy. I know like how to, you know, fish and shopping. Anyway, so they don't know how to shop efficiently cook fishly. But also, there's no ventilation, really, in most, in most, uh, most apartments here, and even most
+
+[6:01] houses, ventilation is bad, and that leads to smoke, and that leads to the fact that smoke detectors go off, and people freak out about the smoke detectors. They freak out about it. Like that the smoke things are going to go off. They flip. There has to be some legal way that you can push
+
+[6:16] like a duration button, right? Like a button that says, for the next 2 hours, I'm going to be awake and cooking. So shut up. You know what I mean? And then it automatically goes back into like full vigilance mode, you know, so that when you're sleeping, you know, burn up in, you know, in your sleep. You know what I mean? It's got to be away. But I was talking about for new things, Mark's Kickstarter, which you could talk about in a minute. Maybe we can get them on next week. Anyway, call her. you on the air. Hey, Dave. Hey, I'm Natasha, everybody. Got a question. This is Drew from Virginia. Um, I got a question about, um, you talk about adding calcium to, uh, like pickles and different things you want to keep crisp. What kind of calcium are you adding? I mean, just calcium chloride or are there other types? Right, so calcium chloride, as you know, tastes bad, but it's the cheapest form of calcium, and also the most available form of calcium. So I think a lot depends on what you're going to do. So if you're going to do like a calcium, like a calcium treatment. You can do calcium chloride for soak it along with, let's say, an enzyme like novo shape, which is the
+
+[7:24] pectin methyl esterase, the strengthening enzyme. You could do a soak for, you know, like a day or 2 and then take it out of that, right? Or just add a small amount of chloride. If you want to add more, you can add the calcium lactate glucinate, but you're
+
+[7:38] going to run into solubility issues, but it has no taste, taste. Whoops. Well, I'll answer the question. he'll call back. So you want to switch to, I mean, most of the time industria they're using chloride. It's, you know, very small, it penetrates quickly like salt. You can leach it back out, which is what they do when they, you know, when
+
+[7:56] they're, when they're doing those things, they, they set things in a very high solution of calcium, where they strengthen things in a very high calcium chloride solution. And then they take it down to a much lower calcium solution for maintenance on things. So you can add a small amount of calcium that way in form of calcium chloride, but it does taste terrible. Um, You can also use pickling lime. The calcium and pickling lime is pickling is calcium hydroxide. Also, you want to do what they do with that one is they add a small amount of it. Uh, you know, well, actually you add excess because it's not very soluble. self-limiting. You soak the cucumbers in it for a while, and then you rinse it in, in, in, in fresh water, and then put it in fresh water, let it soak, then put it in fresh water, again, let it soak, and then put it again, probably in fresh water, and let it
+
+[8:42] soak, to get rid of the excess calcium, uh, and calcium hydroxide, because they turn really, if you just soak cucumbers in excess calcium
+
+[8:51] hydroxide solution, pickling lime solution for like a day or two. They're just, really gross, just really nasty. Remember, did you taste that that time we did that or did you refuse after the look on my face? Because the look on my face. See, I believe you should taste everything even if it's bad, just so you know how bad it is, but Stas doesn't play that game. She's like, nah, I don't care. Patrick don't care. I don't care. I don't need to know how bad it tastes. It tastes bad. So, uh, yeah, so anyway, so like, uh, in pickles, if you're going to use, um, they add, if you're going to cook something, you can add like a chloride, because then as you cook it, the, uh, the actual natural, um, enzymes, the, um, the, uh, pectin
+
+[9:28] methylestrase enzymes that are natural in the, in the fruit will activate along with the chloride as it warms up. So that's what they do in, I don't believe they add extra enzymes to tomatoes. I think they just peel them and then can them with a little bit of calcium chloride. that's why tomatoes are so firm and canned tomatoes. That why they don't break down the way. Who are we talking to, stuff? Someone who didn't like canned tomatoes because they didn't like the fact that they didn't break down. I don't know. It was someone. I forget who it was. It was someone who got all bent, all bent, bent. Anyways. Oh, you're back? Hey. So did you hear that? Were you able to hear what I was saying when we were talking or no? Well, I'm going to, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not listening to live. I'm going to catch up with his, on the, on the archive. Which is cool? Yeah, what I said was, you know, chloride, I'd use chloride if you're going to use like an enzyme, you know,
+
+[10:18] additive like a novo shape or something like that, or you could use pickling lime, calcium hydroxide, which you would soak
+
+[10:25] it for a while. I think it's there's a bunch of procedures on the web for it, and then you soak it for a little while on that, but then you soak it for a couple of fresh changes of water to leach out the
+
+[10:35] excess calcium, hydroxide, the excess calcium. The good thing about calcium hydroxide is that it's not very soluble. And so it releases calcium into the solution as it's being used by
+
+[10:49] the, as it's being used by the pickles. So it kind of like self regulates that
+
+[10:55] way. And then you just rinse out the rinse off the excess when you're done. So that's why I think, you know, pickling lime is fairly easy to work with. Um, but if you're going to switch to, uh, you know, a less crappy tasting
+
+[11:06] calcium, like lactate or lactate glucinate, you're obviously you're going to have to use more of it. All right? All right, I have one more question if you got time. Sure. Um, I've got some, uh, I rendered my own lard in the fall, and this, this year was kind of screwy, and I, and I've got some leaf lard that's in the freezer, and
+
+[11:24] it's not vacuum sealed. So I'm kind of wondering whether it might be rented or not. But I didn't know if the lard rendering process would, would
+
+[11:32] DNA would, would just remove the rancidity or was it just done? I mean, it's just over. Yeah, no, it's if it's rancid, uh, it's over. Unless, but well, listen, it's only going to go rancid where it's in contact with oxygen, right? So like, I don't know how you packed it down. How'd you pack it down? Well, I just put it in Ziploc bags and I just tried to squeeze as much air out as possible. And as I say, it's been there since probably middle of December, so it's been there
+
+[12:00] 1st probably 5 months. Yeah, in the freezer? Yeah, in the freezer, yeah. So, I mean, the good news is there's probably in the in the leaf lard, there's probably very little moisture. Uh, so, and and you got rid of most of the oxygen, so there's a good chance that, um, you know, that it's not ranch, but obviously,
+
+[12:18] you, you'll know when you open the package and it comes up to temp, whether or not it's, it's rancid. And if you're lucky, it's only, you know, going to be, uh, have, you know, it won't have traveled, you know, a long distance and what I would do is just trim
+
+[12:33] out. If you see that some of it's rancid or you smell that kind of, you know, because everyone, you know, if you cook with lard, you know what rancid lard smells like. If you if you have like some of it, I think you're going to probably be able to trim away. Because it was in a big frozen block and the air probably didn't get into, you know, you squished it down, the air is not going to get everywhere. You'll be able to trim out the places where the air got to it, and as long as it was fairly low moisture to begin with, and, you know, like there's not a lot
+
+[12:56] of like, you know, trimming stuff on it, right? Because it's leaf. It's not like, you know, it's not trimmings, right? So, uh, right? So it's meat free, right? Yeah, well, I mean, it was the full pieces and then I, and then I kind of cut them down. I was going to process it in the middle of, and Christmas got in the way and it just kind of, everything got put off. So I just put it in the freezer. So it is chopped up. So it, but, but you're pretty much saying that if it's rancid, I will know it when I smell it. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Yeah. And then you could trim on and like, if you're lucky, you can trim off the same way that, you know, I mean,
+
+[13:27] it's a, in a liquid, the whole thing's going to go rancid, you know, but in a solid like that, you have a good chance that, uh, you have a good chance that it didn't, you know, travel all the way through it so that you can probably do some localized
+
+[13:40] trimming. But you'll definitely know. You know, it's that cardboardy, have that cardboardy, rancid, you know, off spot. I don't know that I've ever smelled rancid, pork fat or, you know,
+
+[13:53] so I mean, I'm just not sure, but the way I'm hearing it is I'll know when I smell it. All right, so you know how like, okay, so you know how like when you like cook bacon fat, right? And then you pour the bacon fat off and then you keep saving it, but you don't use it fast and it sits and it takes on that smell that's not just an overheated
+
+[14:12] smell. that extra added smell, that like kind of off kind of cardboardy kind of smell. Like that's the rancidity in it. You know what I mean? And so if you, if you, you, you get that sort of, or like, you know how, you know, if you, uh, corn
+
+[14:26] oil is a real good one to tell rancidity on. You know how when you get like corn oil and you, uh, and you use it once and then you pour it back in the bottle and then it sits there and it's only half, you know, full and then you open it a couple months later and you
+
+[14:38] smell it, it's got that that smell, that kind of dusty cardboardy kind of thing.
+
+[14:43] Like, that's the rancidity on that. And so, uh, you know, you're not going to get, you know, even if there were a bunch of meat stuff in there when it's frozen, it's not
+
+[14:51] going to go bad on you. It's not going to go, you know, it's not going to be, and it's not going to get that funky. It's not going to get that funky age smell that you get off of like aged fat either. It's gonna, it's just gonna be, uh, you know, it's either gonna be fresh or it's gonna have that kind of rancid, uh, you know, kind of aroma and and taste. And, you know, what you could do also is just take a,
+
+[15:13] because it's going to be a lot easier to tell on a, uh, because a little bit of acidity is good on like cured meat, you know what I mean? Like we're used to it. So I would, I would, you know, trim off anything that obviously looks kind of
+
+[15:24] discolor or messed up and then cut off a small piece, render it out, and then the best
+
+[15:30] way I can tell for measuring oil is get a piece of not flavorful, like white
+
+[15:35] bread and soak up the oil with the white bread, liquid, you know, a little bit warm and taste it.
+
+[15:41] And if it tastes fresh, it's good to go. Okay, good. All right? Next bunch. All right, good luck with it. All right, thanks. Bye. Bye. So, Stas, Mark, Mark Ladner just came out with his kickstarter. Kickstarter. How's he doing so far? Good. Yeah? Yeah. he asking for? He's asking for 85 and he has 35. Yeah, what does he really want though? Uh, 85. Oh, come on. It's not a little lie to me. I think he wants I think 85 is fine. What he really wants is, you know, a lot. Yeah, here's the thing. People don't know about the Kickstarter, is like when people when we so when you do a Kickstarter, you know, as we know, because we did it, and by the way, not for nothing, we're getting close to getting the stuff shipped in, it's going to be, we're very close to getting the
+
+[16:24] seers alls on the water. We're going to give big updates on the seers when they actually are on the water. which should be very, very soon. But that's not what I was talking about. When you're doing a Kickstarter, you like the worst thing to happen is that you don't reach it. So you have to set your goals low enough so that you know you can reach it, right? And it's also, like, somehow, like, in terms of the mentality of it, people really like, uh, people really like it when you go way over. So you actually like, you know, we were trying to choose a number that we thought we could beat rather handily.
+
+[16:57] You know what I mean? But then it's like this weird thing where you want to choose number solo. People are like, oh, they got it already. I don't need to go on. It's like a really weird psychology with Kickstarter. You know what I mean? So you want to tell, do you want to have him on? How long is a Kickstarter? It's till July 4th or fourth? Does he want to come on and do we talk about it? Maybe. But you can see it at pastaflier.com. Pastaflyer.com. Pasta flyer. This is the most difficult Kickstarter I've ever seen. What do you mean difficult? Well, it's like, because it's a concept. Ours was really good because it was a thing. you know, like an actual product. And this is so what's it? It's like concept. Well, the concept is gluten-free, pasta, quick served. Like the like almost truck style, right? Well, yeah, almost truck style. But are they going to be standalone locations again? He will be someday, but he's gonna do pop-ups 1st in colleges around the northeast. So gluten-free pasta for college kids that is of high quality. Because his argument is that pasta, most pasta sucks, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And but it's like it has like some old grandma, right? Is it the grandma of those of those kids from UCLA that we insulted? I hope not. If that's the grandma? Will, Dave, I will, Dave. That's my mark, Will, Dave, up. I found the grandma of those pie kids that you insulted. Yeah, nah. That's not that grandma. Is it his grandma? No, I think he based it off Cesare's mother. So who is a grandma? Who is a grandma, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yes, America fair. fair, fair. My grandma? Not such a good pasta cooker. Okay. What? Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay, Rob, Treypaz wrote in about fiddleheads for finally getting to it, from Portland, not Portland over in Beardland, Portland,
+
+[18:44] Maine. Not that you can't grow a beard in Portland, Maine, but it's a different kind. probably it's more, although they're both kind of lumberjacky, right? Portland, Maine, and Portland, you know, in Oregon, both kind of lumberjacky. Oh, speaking of, before I get into this question, Rob, I'm getting to your question in a minute, but when I think of Portland, Oregon, I
+
+[19:03] think by the way, Jeffrey Morgenthaler, bar out there just came out with a cocktail book. You got to check it out. you know, Portland. But, you know, Andy Ricker of Pockpock, who, you know, was before he became also a New York guy, Portland guy, I was just thinking to him because I was thinking of Thailand. Uh, and it came to my attention last week. If you go to the Guardian in UK, Guardian.uk, they did some research. came to my last attention that the largest farmed shrimp producer in Thailand, who ships all over the world, including to U.S. at like Walmarts and Costco's and, you know, all the big box joints like
+
+[19:41] that and like, I think in the UK and like Tesco, all the big places in there, that they unbelievably use slave labor, literal slave
+
+[19:50] labor. Now, they don't directly hire them so that they, you know, they can't get necessarily caught. But here's how it works. And I was completely shocked. You can go watch an 18 minute video online. And I didn't even, you know, you think about a lot of stuff when you buy food, you think about sustainability, like some people think about, you know, um, you know,
+
+[20:08] like whether it's local or not, you know, I remember, uh, you know, Patrick came on saying, don't think about
+
+[20:13] local, local's not important. That's what Patrick Martin was saying the other day here, Martin's. But the, you know, people think about that. I think we think about the health, we think about economics. We tend not to think that our food is made by slaves. You know what I mean? We just tend not to think about it. You tend not to think that, hey, maybe my food's made by slaves. So what happens is, is, uh, like human uh, smugglers, traffickers. Uh, they go to Burma and they convince people that they're going to get a job in Thailand because the unemployment in Thailand's very low, right?
+
+[20:46] So, and, you know, in Burma, not so low. So they they go, they find people and they're like, hey, we're going to take you over to Thailand where you're going to get a good job, right? And they smuggle them into Thailand. And when they get to Thailand, instead of actually giving them a good job, they sell these people to
+
+[21:02] ship captains, boat captains, fishing boat captains. And what they said in The Guardian was it's like £400 or £450, you know, British pounds because British. So I think I think it was pounds, not dollars, but something like that. So a ship captain. This is these are real. This is real, literal, 1000s and 1000s of people are literally being purchased for like
+
+[21:23] £400 sterling, right? And then they're on these boats, and they theoretically have to work until it's paid back. But since they're not paid anything on the boat. They can't ever get it, they never gets paid back. And so they sit there and they are they are treated like slaves and that they are
+
+[21:39] beaten. And if they try to escape, They are beaten and sometimes shot, beat to death, worked, you know, every
+
+[21:46] day, 7 days, like, you know, sometimes up to, you know, 20 hours a day. If they, you know, it's horrible conditions. They're underfed because they, you know, they just work them until, until basically until they escape or they die. And they they catch trash fish on these boats. And the fish is then taken ashore and sold and converted to fish meal. And that fish meal is what's sold to the shrimp farms and fed to shrimp. So, you know, the entire industry, the shrimp farming industry is supported on the catch of these trash fish, and a lot of the boats that supply that are slave
+
+[22:27] labor, and the big, the big folks, the, you know, the big producer there. I think it's CP, I think I forget, is it doesn't really care one way or the other where the fish meal comes from.
+
+[22:39] So if it comes from, you know, the sweat of slaves, then so be it. So I encourage all of you to go online, the guardian.uk, and look at their expose on that. And I did some research. It's not anything completely new. In other words, it's not it's not horse crap. It's real. Like a couple other people have reported on the same thing. And I was just kind of shocked, you know? Kind of shocked, uh, that that kind of stuff still goes on. Anyway, Dave, we have a caller on the line right now. Okay. Put them on? Yeah, sure. Call her, you're on the air. Hi. Hey. Um, so hard to follow up on that conversation, but I have a more benign question about
+
+[23:19] uh, kitchen ventilation. as you mentioned earlier. I was wondering, I have about a 90 square foot apartment kitchen. It's separated from the rescue department, and there's a window in it. So the natural ventilation, as these things go, isn't awful, but
+
+[23:36] obviously, it exit air. It's still a problem. What is, is there a cheap solution just to just be getting a exhaust, you know, building an exhaust van and then opening the window to intake air when it's operational or is this sort of system? a lot more complicated than, you know, than just getting an exhaust fan. Okay, so I have some experience with this because in my new, in my old kitchen, I actually installed an illegal restaurant hood,
+
+[24:03] right? Uh, and and piped it directly out of my window. And that worked great because the, then in my current kitchen, I
+
+[24:12] have, uh, I have an extremely powerful window fan, extremely powerful, uh, like a huge blower that I have, uh, you know, attached with a register right at my window so that the window, in other words, it looks like a big block is coming out of the top of my
+
+[24:27] window and the window's always a little bit open because the fan is permanently installed there, right? But you can't see it because it looks like louvers. But it's, it's easily twice as powerful as my old, as my old fan. Um, and quiet because when you're when you're buying a fan for ventilation. The mistake people make is they get little fans and little fans have to spin very, very quickly to get the exhaust flow
+
+[24:50] out. And the faster that a fan spins, the more irritating and loud typically the motor is, right? So you want, if you can, to figure out a way to get a larger, like a larger fan with
+
+[25:03] a slower moving blades. And also, they, like every decent fan is rated on the decibel level. So like they can do a lot of stuff with the geometry of the blades to get fans that have a lot lower noise rating. And believe me, it's worth spending twice as much on a fan with a lower noise rating because you're going to be running it for hours and hours and trying to hold normal conversations in the
+
+[25:28] kitchen and, you know, like a bad fan is irritating, even like way outside of the kitchen. Then beyond that, you can insulate fans to try and get them. But that's a whole separate thing. So your question was specifically, can I just put a window fan in? Here's the issue. Where is your stove in relation to the window? Uh, still about uh, 6 feet, 6, 7 feet from the window. Right. So the issue is, is that in a, in a hood, you have a, it's a hood, over the stuff that's, that's creating the smoke, smoke tends to go up, right? And then because the suction is directly over that hood, it tends to gather, suck, and shoot it out the window. So you actually are only evacuating a fairly small amount of space,
+
+[26:09] right? So when you're trying to, when you're trying to do a whole room, even if it's contained, you now have to contend with the fact that
+
+[26:17] you have to evacuate that entire room. So the capacity, the airflow that you need to get is all of a sudden a lot bigger. So here's how you can help it, right? You can get a fan directly in a window, right? That's going to create some movement away. But the issue is, is that the smoke is going to go up, and then it's only going to evacuate at the rate that it can evacuate, and then it's going to roll over into the other areas of the
+
+[26:40] house, just because the fan in the window is not sufficient to create an actual movement of air across out of your window.
+
+[26:48] The other problem is that you're going to have is that houses have apartments have a natural kind of draw to them. So, for instance, you need to check to see whether it, like, an apartment can either
+
+[27:00] naturally, uh, you know, be kind of uh, be sucking air out of the hallway or pushing air into the hallway, depending on how the airflow in the building works. Also, you know, if you have cross ventilation, depending on the layout of your apartment, you could have cross ventilation that naturally wants to go one way or naturally wants to go the other way.
+
+[27:18] So you kind of need to figure out what wants to happen in your apartment naturally. But once you decide to install the window fan, then you need to get air moving out of that window, you need to figure out how to get the best breeze that's floating from the one side of your kitchen towards the window and out.
+
+[27:35] So one way you can do that is install a secondary fan, like a ceiling
+
+[27:40] fan pointed towards your vent fan, and that's going to help create movement, such that the entire massive error wants to move out of your window, or, you know, you might be lucky and have a natural draw out of your window, uh, your kitchen window anyway, in which case you go into
+
+[27:56] into a different room, like the bathroom, and open a bunch of windows, anything that's going to get good cross ventilation
+
+[28:02] out, and that's going to assist it out. But it's easy to tell, just make some smoke. Open that window, make some smoke and see where it goes, right? And then try to figure out a way to get it just moving out the window in an efficient
+
+[28:14] fashion because it's harder when you're just putting something in the window versus installing a fake hood.
+
+[28:19] Now you can install a fake hood. And the reason why it's illegal, though, is because, well, 1st of all, it's a big pain in the butt to do it, but it's illegal because, you know, in a hood, you get a lot of grease going into the hood and you can have a fire and they're worried about you ejecting a fire through a vent duct out
+
+[28:38] into, you know, and that's going to catch fire, go up and catch the apartment above you on fire. With a window fan, that's not an issue because there's not a ducting system that they have to worry
+
+[28:48] about. And so there's no rules when you have a window fan versus a hood. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought one other, one other thing to consider, and this, you know, in favor of the Windows fan, it might so drop. It's one of the apartment really well output gas stove. So, thinking of getting an induction, you know, one induction burner, at least, but that's portable enough that you could plate it closer to the window, if not next to the window, and how much water
+
+[29:15] passed to the exhaust. Does that make sense? Is that, you know, if you're a higher, higher, like, block, block, or steering on
+
+[29:23] that closer to the X? Do you have 220 in your apartment? No, there's primitive wiring, actually. There's only a couple outlets in the whole kitchen. Yeah. So, you know, even like a decent induction burner that runs off of a standard 120 circuit puts out, you know, enough power to be better than
+
+[29:41] most than a crappy home range, right? So yeah, you could win that way, having a burner under there. You know, but one thing you could do is, and you could even make it, you know, you know, non-permanent if you want, is just, uh, you know, put like a, you know, above your
+
+[29:59] window because you don't want to get rid of light for, you know, for God's sakes, but you could have like a,
+
+[30:03] like almost like a little hood thing over the window that's going to help suck up and out the window.
+
+[30:08] In other words, yes, cooking right under the window is going to be helpful. And then if you have that fan going there, like, uh, having like, like a bonnet over the top that captures the, the, the smoke as it goes up and helps funnel the air out the
+
+[30:20] window might also be helpful. You know, otherwise, otherwise, if it doesn't directly get sucked out by the fan, it'll hit your ceiling and then roll in both directions and then, you know, down and you're
+
+[30:28] going to lose some. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So you could try that and that'd be fairly, fairly easy. Um, you know, you're still gonna run into problems when you're using the oven as opposed to the, the, you know,
+
+[30:40] the, the range. I mean, and these fan, this sort of fan, you're looking at something that's an industrial, and not a consumer, you know, what's, what's the best, you know, place to look for something like this for
+
+[30:53] an apartment window? Well, also, a lot depends. I mean, if it's your only source of light in the kitchen, natural light, you have to always,
+
+[31:01] uh, you know, it's a, it's a, you don't want to take up too much of the window because then you've taken up a lot of the window, but then if you have to do a lot of rigmarole, like install the fan every time you want to use it,
+
+[31:13] well then you're never going to use it, right? So what I would say is that, you know, the best benefit ratio, benefit to losing window ratio might be,
+
+[31:23] um, I don't know how wide your window is, but a lot of times you can fit something like two, 8 inch fans in, and then you just want to get the quietest 8 inch fans that you can. And sometimes they even make ones that are like double fans, and you'll see them in a lot of restaurants will get them, and they kind of fake use them as ventilation, you know, like, you know, especially
+
+[31:43] like down in my neighborhood, like in Chinatown, they make fairly small ones. They're not quiet, but they're kind of industrial, they're on shock mount, so that they're not vibrating like lunatics, and they're just big enough that they're don't have that irritating jet jet engine noise that like the little hood fans
+
+[32:00] do. You know what I'm talking about? Like, they have, like, they look like almost, like, the, one of those things
+
+[32:05] called, those oscillating fans that you have on your desks, like, that size fan, but the, the 2 of them are mounted on, like, uh, on, like, a steel, on, like, a steel plate and you mount that steel plate in the top of your window and you kick those suckers
+
+[32:18] on and they move some air. That seems like the best. I've dealt with, you know, I've had like plastic versions of those that are pretty glimpy. just getting a higher output. And frankly, it's sort of like, there's not, it's only with like hearing and walking where the smoke is actually a huge problem, so I feel like it's, you know, it's not like there's, you know, a fire on the whole time
+
+[32:38] and just creating smoke constantly when cooking most things, so. But it's also that's good. Like, like in early, in like late spring, early summer, like when you just need to get some airflow in the house, you like open the, you know, it depends on your apartment, but you open the bathroom window and then you open this guy, turn this on, and whew, you suck the stuff
+
+[32:56] through, and you can get a good breeze through the house. You can build up an airflow if it's getting stagnant. So I use my hood for that sometimes too. Yeah, and there's a smoke detector outside the kitchen on the other side of the wall, but it seems to be
+
+[33:08] field enough that, you know, the smoke detector never goes off, even if the kitchen is, you know, completely full of smoke, even though the smoke
+
+[33:14] detector's working. So it seems to be a pretty, you know, it has good cross ventilation through the bathroom,
+
+[33:19] but it, you know, reasonably air tight, the rest of the apartment, they're just getting a model amount of exhaust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If that's the case, then, yeah, I mean, I would just, you want, um, for a
+
+[33:32] given, uh, number of CFMs, uh, the smaller the blades that you use to get that level of CFMs, the louder it's
+
+[33:40] going to be. So it's, but the bigger the blade that you use, the more window space you take up. And so that's that's kind of the bargain you're going to have to drive with yourself. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, this is super helpful. All right, all right. Good luck with this. And when you when you install it, give us a call back and let us know how it worked out. Okay, thanks. Okay, cool. Okay, Rob, I'm getting back to your question. So fiddleheads from Portland, Maine, right? And I'm not going to get lost in a tangent on Thailand and slave shrimp. You ever listen to a public enemy? No, you said you weren't going to get into it. Oh, yeah. They have a song about slave ships, and it's like, chick, chick, slave ships. And now all I can think of is slave shrimp. That song, the public enemy song is going in my head with, with, uh, slave shrimp. And then, you know, that song? Tangent. But you never listen to public games? Four weeks. Phil Lance, oh my God. Joe, you listen to Public Enemy? No, I do, but that's all I'm going to say. Thank you, Joe. Maybe later we can get into it. No, mole records. Okay I'm not gonna get into it. Great album, though. Okay, I was recently up in Portland, Maine, at one of my favorite restaurants and was presented with
+
+[34:51] lightly pickled fiddleheads as a garnish to my sandwichboard of charcuterie. It was awesome. I was always under the impression that fiddleheads were to be cooked for 10 minutes. There was no way this little violin was cooked for more than 2 minutes before being shocked. The fern was bright green, crisp, and appeared to be an ostrich fern, was definitely not a bracken. Is it safe to eat ostrich fill heads lightly blanched? Does pickling or pH play a roll? I would love to be able to eat ostrich fiddleheads blanched or is crisp refrigerator pickle where the fresh flavor and texture predominates? It seems the bracken fern gave the whole lot of fiddleheads and bad press resulting in overcooked ferns across the board, but there's little information that I could find on the
+
+[35:31] internet. PS can't wait for my pair of sears alls to arrive regards Rob Treypaz. Uh, who, by the way, Rob, always very good at providing the pronunciation for his name, which I
+
+[35:41] would not be able to pronounce otherwise. you know, I appreciate it because everyone knows that I cannot pronunciate pronunciate. Did I just say pronunciate? Okay. So the issue is this. A lot of ferns, when they're coming, when, you know, a lot of ferns, when they're growing, when the
+
+[35:57] Franz 1st come out of the ground in the springtime, they are curled up and they look like
+
+[36:01] fiddleheads. you like fiddlehead stars? Okay. So, uh, So one, like the most common fern in the U, in the US, and maybe, I don't know, around the world, I have no idea, is a Bracken fern, right? Brackenferns have been eaten for since forever. Like Native Americans eat it. you know, it's eaten a lot in Asia. It's eaten all over the world, bracken ferns, right? But Bracken ferns contain a poison and there's, you know, several of them. And the one that they, you know, is most prominent, is called Tequila side, right? And so then there's a huge question of, you know, and different bracken fern populations, and maybe even plant to plant within a given population, have wildly different amounts of these poisons in them. They are somewhat water soluble, so they leech out, they can actually leech into groundwater. It's well known that animals that feed on bracken ferns. Um, can have problems, you know, you know, pretty bad problems. Um, you know, blood, anemia problems, things like this. I believe it's also carcinogenic, although I'm not sure. So, but, you know, a lot of people eat it all the time. And so there's a lot of question as to whether or not that's a problem. Now, ostrich ferns are different from bracken. So the way you can tell an ostrich fern is a fiddlehead, is that there's
+
+[37:20] a U, there's a deep U shaped groove in an ostrich fern. So if you think about fiddlehead styles when you buy them in the store. Like if you imagine them in your head, the inside a curve of it has like a deep U channel in it, right? So you can obviously tell when you get an ostrich front because it's like that. Also, ostrich firm fiddleheads aren't hairy. And if you're picking them, there's like a little scaly thingamajig over the curly doodle part of the fiddlehead, right? So it's pretty easy to tell whether you have an ostrich, fern, or a bracken when you're getting it. Now, for many, many years, no one had problems with ostrich ferns. Uh, or at least not that anyone knew of. And then there was a case in, in, in, I think it was either upstate New York or in
+
+[38:04] Canada, where in 1994, of an actual poisoning incident that happened, food poisoning incident that happened with ostrich
+
+[38:12] ferns. So this is from the, I believe this is the CDC. Yeah, this is a CDC talking about this original 1994, which was the 1st time I was able to find any
+
+[38:24] records, and everyone points back to 1994. as the 1st time there's any problem with fiddleheads. and it goes like this. Fiddleheads, cruisers of the ostrich fern are a seasonal delicacy. We know this already. harvested commercially in the northeastern United States and coastal provinces in Canada. Although some common firms may be poisonous or carcinogenic, this species has been considered to be
+
+[38:43] non-toxic. However, in May 1994, outbreaks of food poisoning were associated with eating raw or lightly cooked fiddlehead ferns in New York and
+
+[38:51] western Canada. This report summarizes the investigation. So what happened is, in 1994, a restaurant in Steuben County, New York,
+
+[38:58] had an illness among 20 people who had eaten at the restaurant, and they determined that it was the people who had eaten these lightly cooked
+
+[39:07] fiddleheads. They were, I think, steamed for a couple of minutes or sauteed and then sent down. And the vast majority of people that ate these fiddleheads got sick. And no one who hadn't eaten the fiddleheads really at the restaurant got sick at all. So it was pretty clear that it was this. And it wasn't a bacterial problem, right? And it was very, uh, like the, the, there's the good news. The onset of the illness was fast, very fast. I think within a day. And also it only lasted for a day and and no nobody died, right? Uh, then the same thing happened uh, in Quebec in 1999 and in Anchorage, Alaska in
+
+[39:48] 2010, right? So what it appears, what everyone seems to say in the literature is there is some sort of, um, there is some sort of toxin that's being
+
+[39:58] produced, uh, by some some fiddleheads, some ostrich ferns, right? Not all, but they don't know what it is yet. They know that if you cook the hell out of the ostrich fern, that you're not going to have a problem. If you cook it for 10 minutes, they know you're not going to have a problem. They have no other way, since they don't know what it is in the ostrich fern that causes this thing, they don't know how to get rid of it, right?
+
+[40:25] Other than by cooking. They don't know how to test for it. They don't know any of this. All they know is, is that most of the time a raw ostrich fern is not going to hurt you. And then occasionally you'll get a batch of ostrich ferns that if you eat them
+
+[40:37] undercooked, lead to a short-lived but nasty case of gastroenteritis, but not, you know, cancer or, you know, some sort of like, you know,
+
+[40:47] uh, actual poisoning where, where, you know, you die or anything like that. So it looks like, you know, uh, you're kind of on your own there. Like if you want to eat them raw or lightly cooked or pickled, you probably won't have a problem, i.e. you didn't when you had it in Portland, Maine, but you just never know when you're going to get a batch that might cause this kind of an outbreak.
+
+[41:10] And they, like I say, it's not, as far as they know, it's not bacterial in nature. So you can't like, you know, use some other technique to get rid of bacteria.
+
+[41:19] Uh, so it's interesting problem. And if any of you, I looked at the most, that was the most current research I could find was from
+
+[41:25] 2010, and still nobody seems to know what the hell's going on with it. So there you have it. All right. So they're going to kick us off pretty soon, right? So do you have a, do you have your email? I had the question from, all right, let me get let me get this up. We had a question in from longtime, a listener. Ellie Nasser, right? And saying, hello, Dave and Crew? I was hoping you might be able to save me some bucks. I would be and I spoke to him on the Twitter a little bit about this, but I figured I'd read it on here. I would be eternally grateful to you in the cooking issues crew, my polycience immersion circulator, the creative series. which ones create a series, you remember? Is that the original one? Stopped heating the water. It's only about a year and a half old. It only has one year warranty, of course. And polycience wants 80, of course. It's like saying your mom would say, one year, of course. And probably science once, she hasn't talked like that. Polyscience wants $85 to look at it plus shipping. The circulator powers up, the pump works perfectly, and the icon for heating, which
+
+[42:21] look like wave, shows up as if it should be heat in the water, but the heater is definitely not actually coming on and heating the water.
+
+[42:27] Any ideas what I could look for to make it work, maybe a burnt fuse or something, or should I go ahead and ship it and eat the cost? Well, since he did that. what I said to him was let's open it, look at it, and see whether or not you see anything loose or broken. he opened it. And what he saw was that there is the wire or that connects to the heater element was kind of fried and gross looking. And so what I said to him, which is true, is that a lot of circulators, I haven't seen this problem on a modern circulator, like, you know, when I say modern, like, you know, less
+
+[42:55] than like eight, 9 years old, but a lot of the old circulators have a lot of mechanical connections in them between wires and things like heaters, right? Where the wire is crimped around the heater. Here's what happens in a high moisture environment. So if you store your circulator in a very moisture human environment, or if
+
+[43:12] you, if your kitchen is extremely humid or you run your circulators in a closet, even though there are fans that try to keep moisture and air outside of the inside of the circulator when it's running, you can get a high moisture environment on the inside of the circulator.
+
+[43:26] What happens then is that the metal contacts between, let's say, the heater and the and the heater wire, I've seen it happen in fuse
+
+[43:35] connectors where the fuses pop in because that's a physical connection. It's not soldered. Those things can corrode. When they corrode, they become a resistor, right? And what resistors do when electricity passes through them, is they heat up. And so what you can get is very, very, very hot locally hot spots and they can be hot enough some places to, I've had them melt fuses. I've had them burn through wires eventually, melt melt, you know, the insulation around it. And so what you need to do in a situation like that is, 1st of all, like, take stock of what happened and try to figure out, like, why, how it got so human on the inside of a circulator, but you have to cut off the section of the wire where it
+
+[44:15] is, uh, is is oxidized because that part's ruined. because it's hard to solder to it if it's completely ruined like that. Cut that part off, strip a new section, take the old end of the heater where it was all burnt and mangled, take a nail file, and
+
+[44:29] now cover everything else up because the last thing you want to do is get a metal filing dust in the inside of your
+
+[44:35] circulator. You need to completely cover everything so that filings cannot get into your circulator. And you want to take
+
+[44:40] a, like a nail file and file or sandpaper, the end of the heater so it's bright and clean, then you can get soldering iron and solder because that part of the heater doesn't get that hot. And you can solder onto
+
+[44:54] the spade terminal, which is on the end of the heater, you can solder the wire onto it and then wrap some electrical tape or a little heat shrink around it and put it down.
+
+[45:02] And once you solder it, it will not corrode because you've now made an actual connection, the air cannot get
+
+[45:08] into no matter what happens, and you're good to go. Um, so that is how I would solve uh, that problem. And on the way out. We had a question from at Clefs on the Twitter, and it was, let me find you, Clefs. Cooking issues. Have you tried pulling a vacuum on a vitamix? Well, it is blending. Is it worth it interested in reducing oxidation, oxidation, and cavitation? And also good because a lot of things that you blend, like hydrocoloids. This is why I originally did it. years ago, is that when you're blending a hydrocoloid, you whip air into it, and then you either have to suck a vacuum on it or do a lot of stuff to get rid of the air that you blended in, right?
+
+[45:45] So, yes, I've tried to suck a vacuum on a Vitaprep, and here's why it doesn't work, Cliff. The bearings in a Vita Prep are not completely airtight under pressure. They're airtight under normal circumstances, but when you suck a vacuum on it, which is roughly 15 PSI. You suck air and also like whatever nasty crap is in your bearing, up through the bottom of the bearing and into the unit. So it's not possible to suck a good vacuum on the VitaPrep. If you wanted to, you'd have to install a special sealed bearing on the
+
+[46:16] Vitaprep bottom or buy what's called a vacuum whip or vacuum mix. I forget vacuum, which is a dental tool that's used to mix and whip plaster for dental molds without introducing any air into
+
+[46:27] it. But unfortunately, they're small now, but it's maybe something we can work on. It's something I've always wanted. And that's it for this week. Cooking your shoes.
+
+[46:41] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foods market.com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
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+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Your Shoes coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn, in the back of Roberta's
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+[0:42] Pizzeria every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined again with Jack. How you doing, Jack? I'm great Yeah, you're back. Where were you? were you on the vacation? Where were we? I was on vacation. I was working. I was performing at Bonnaroo. Ah, performing, but like... The Heritage Radio or for your band? For my DJ performance collective. We are called full service. So there were 16 of us. Are you, in fact, a full service DJ collected? Let me ask you a question, Jack. Now, you know, just based on what you're what you play here, you don't like, you know, spin like wedding hits, right? That's not your gig. Yeah, okay. But let me ask you a question. Yeah, you can ham, sure. Let me ask you a question. This thing that people do now, nowadays at parties where they play like 30 seconds of a song that I really love, and then they throw it into some other song that I may or may not like, but then it's only ever like 30 seconds at a time of a song,
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+[1:35] what's with that? What is that? Well, I mean, I guess that's, you know, if you're looking for a professional DJ, right? Or if someone's making a career as a DJ, you have to do something that sets yourself apart from somebody that might just have
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+[1:48] Spotify because anybody with Spotify could just play a song that everybody knows. Yeah, but to keep up, no, to keep a room grooming, how many of these people, when they're switching this stuff up, keep people's asses pumping the entire time. They don't. They always flub it. It's always messed. guess it depends on where you are. And do I really want to hear 30 seconds of hypnotized or do I want Biggie Smalls to, like, you know, bash me all the way through on that thing? Fair point. Yeah. I mean, I still, you know, I just don't, I just don't get it. I just don't get it. Because if you, like, like, like old school DJs, right? They weave stuff in and out, but they're really just kind of, like, you lay down a long, a long, long, long track that you can just keep grooving to fundamentally all night,
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+[2:26] right? And then you can layer tunes in and out of that, but it's not like they're literally playing the tune for 30 seconds and then just doing the
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+[2:32] CrossFade, right? Which is what I feel people are doing now. Or lot of remixes and stuff. All right. So, I mean, I don't know. Do you think it's not weak? Tell me why it's not weak. Why it's not weak? Why would I just describe, like, 30 seconds of hypnotized and then crossfade into some other song? doesn't even necessarily have. The way you're describing that doesn't sound so good. You'd think that these DJs, when they're doing this, would notice everyone's leaving the dance floor. Well, that's your answer. If people are leaving the dance floor, then you're failing. Yeah. Another thing. Any of you getting married out there, enough with the brown-eyed girl. Seriously. Jack, can you dance to brown eyed girl at a wedding? I don't really dance at weddings though. There you go, DJ. What about you? What about you, Stas? I haven't been to a wedding in a while Yeah, but when you go out dancing, what do you like when they play like those like, those songs that are good songs, but they're, like, you want songs everyone's butt can gyrate to, right? And that's pretty much it. Good gyrating beat, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, enough water on the sidelines so people don't die. You can like finger snap to brown-eyed girl, I guess. Yeah, but everyone, look, unless you are freaking Fred Astaire. You're not going to stand around in front of, you know, your friend's family and God forbid someone that you're trying to get in bed with and snap your fingers.
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+[3:44] Probably. Yeah. All right. Listen, we have more time later on this, Jack. Do you have Chris on the phone? No, we can get him on the phone right now. I'll talk about the question a bit, and then while you're getting on the phone, we'll try to do this here. So I got a question. Actually, it was into the, uh, into the Twitter, uh, by, uh, Chuck Schneider asking, um, about a recipe that was published on chef steps for
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+[4:07] me qui, you know, partially cooked. You like that word? Don't like it says. You don't like it? ? What does it sound like to you? Anyway, well, I can't. Chris is not on the phone yet. I thought you were going to talk about it. Well, I mean, he has to hear the question, so I'm not going to, anyway. So it's about Miqui sandwiches, like, you know, partially cooked. And the question is, I've got Chris on the line. Hey, Chris, how you doing? I'm doing well. How are you, Dave? All right. So I got a question about one of your chef step recipes. And I'm presuming it's yours because when someone asked a question you commented. So I'm assuming that means it's probably your recipe. It's for the meat, yeah, the meat qui salmon. And the question was from Chuck Schneider. It was, dear folks. I love the flavor texture of this, meaning your recipe, but curious how
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+[4:51] it compares to both raw or traditional cooked product safety wise. Now, uh, just for, you know, uh, you want to, like, give me, give me like the 32nd, like,
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+[5:02] rundown, the difference between this low temperature salmon and the one that was, the ones that are popularized by like the Roka style cooking that was, uh, you know, came into Vogue, I don't know, around 2001, 2002, is that this one
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+[5:14] is uh, cooked, well, cooked in quotes. I'm making air quotes around the microphone and then refrigerated afterwards and actually kept, which is non, not the way
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+[5:24] that, uh, you know, the early low temp and sous vide jockeys were doing. So with that in mind, why don't you give us the like 32nd rundown of the recipe? Sure. Well, the important thing to recognize that it's not only cooked or far cooked, but it's also lightly cured with
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+[5:38] salt, and so you have 2 factors improving the safety. You've got a bit of salt, but in combination with the heating is more effective at providing a margin of safety
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+[5:49] than heat alone. And for various reasons, we actually tested this recipe with an independent food research laboratory where it was challenge tested for a 2 week
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+[6:00] period. And we actually showed that although the heating temperature alone wouldn't
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+[6:04] ensure adequate margins of safety, The combination of the salt and the heat together showed that the recipe was actually quite safe against the usual
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+[6:15] pathogens. And so we feel pretty confident in recommending it. It was only 40 degrees C though, right? 2nd rundown. Sorry? The cooking temperature was only 40 degrees C, right? That's right. 104. Yeah. So... Like, in fact, for many bacteria, that's, so people, let's just get this straight, straight off the top. Chris, but you know, for those of you that don't know, I don't know how the hell you would be listening to this if you don't know who Chris Young is, but Chris Young is one of the founders of Chef
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+[6:44] Steps. And if you haven't gone to that website yet, I recommend you go right away. Or I would wait 35 minutes and then go. The other, you know, also, you know, one of the authors of Modernist Cuisine, the greatest cookbook achievement of all times. And, uh, there's
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+[7:03] a bunch of things when you're when you're doing food safety, you know, Chris will chime in in a second. And there's a lot of interesting, interesting words about how the health departments across the country and nationally handle food safety in modernist
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+[7:15] cuisine if you haven't had a chance to read those sections yet. Um, I especially like the submarine thing. You like that? It's not really food safety, but that submarine thing changed my life. I will talk about it later because Chris is limited on time. Someone remind me to talk about the submarine thing if I haven't already. Is that everyone's favorite section of monitors cuisine or not, Chris? With the with the butt die. It's probably not. Maybe yours. Oh, no, it's definitely one of mine. I mean, like, I mean, that's like crazy. I have to get into it. I'm sorry. So the thing is, is, you know, how, how, how, how much are like germs, let's just call them on people really spread about, you
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+[7:53] know? And this doctor, the naval doctor on board a submarine, gave exams to the sailors and then said that he was testing their their
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+[8:02] nether regions there behind for something, and instead put a phosphorescent powder dye in their butts, and
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+[8:10] then, like a day later, walked around the submarine with a UV lamp, and the entire freaking sub lit up from the phosphorescent stuff. pretty much accurate. And I was like, the funny thing is, I don't think it's mentioned who that story came from, but the person, the sailor in question who told us that story was the
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+[8:29] the, the renowned Craig Vintner, uh, the decoder of the human genome during his time in the Navy. So he's actually the source of that. So, so presumably reputable. I think so. Nice. I like that. That's strong. Strong. So you heard it here first, folks. Okay. Back to what we're saying here. Here are some true statements. The, the, any food safety um, organization in the world? Their job isn't to figure out the minimum possible thing that's safe from a bacteria or whatever
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+[9:03] standpoint for a particular recipe. Their job is to provide bulletproof, uh, uh, you know,
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+[9:10] guidelines such that no one can mess things up and no one's going to get food poison. And such, all of the rules are always overkill 100% of the time. 100% of the time. Um, Now, the, uh, but here's the, here's the thing. There a little magical thing and the 2 magic words, because I was going to get in an argument with Chris about like, you know, the levels, blah, blah, blah. He said the 2 magic words, which were challenge study. Now, if you, what a challenge study is, is you, you, you actually usually incubate whatever you're going to cook with the pathogen of choice, and
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+[9:42] then, uh, you do your procedure to it, and then they test it, uh, with a certain number of uh, of iterations to prove that that the bacteria of interest doesn't grow. And if your procedure does that, then it's safe. accurate or no? Yep, yeah. And so that's that's exactly the approach we we took. We were working with a food retailer who was interested in this recipe, and so they funded this, and that recipe was actually put to the test,
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+[10:10] and, and certainly heating alone as a control would fail, and, and if your, if your salmon was unsafe, um, you would increase the risk slightly. Although in my opinion, you know, what we found from that is it's probably not any safer, even if you skipped the salty and
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+[10:25] stuff and eating and eating most sushi. But if you add the salt in combination with heating and you start out with a reasonable, you know, obviously you shouldn't have a horrible, nasty product, but if you start out with reasonably fresh salmon, you know, so that you get as a typically a reputable supermarketer or fishmonger, and the combination of the salt and the low heating, followed by the
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+[10:47] chilling in refrigeration, was adequate to provide an appropriate margin. Now, would you avoid pre butchered filets? Well, uh, in general, we prefer, you know, it's always the less processing your ingredients have had, generally speaking, the safer they're going to
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+[11:05] be, because there's less opportunity for surface contamination. So, it depends on how concerned you are. If you're very, very risk averse, um, then, you know, maybe
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+[11:14] that, you know, maybe you do want to basically have everything as pristine and handled as little as possible. But you know what? I eat salmon sushi in Seattle, and there was a study that said that one out of 4 pieces of salmon sushi have viable and a
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+[11:27] sacid worms. So, you know, we all do that pretty regularly. You know, most of the time, you know, we take some risk and it doesn't hurt us. Right, right. But, I mean, and these are really minor rips. Well, okay, so here's the here are the 2 bacteria. ask you about because I'm sure these are the ones that people, one of the, some of the concerned was botulism and listeria, right? So both of those were tested in the challenge. No, we didn't do that because we were going to have adequate refrigeration. And you were not going to have, so with botulism, you have to undergo spore outgrowth.
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+[12:01] And, and our process does not allow nearly enough time to basically trigger
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+[12:06] spore, uh, score germination and outgrowth. Well, but there's no botulism out. So you're saying that the soak and the pack time prior to cook isn't enough to cause any germination? No.
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+[12:18] I mean, the whole, the whole process is salt, salt, salt, the filets in a brine, you cook the,
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+[12:25] you vacuum, seal them, and cook them for an hour, and then they're rapidly brought down the refrigeration temperature. So you're only in the danger zone about 45 minutes to an hour, depending on the sizes of your piece of salmon, maybe an hour and 15 minutes, including the cool down time. That's just not a very long time for bacterial growth. Uh, now, obviously, if you load it up with, with, with, with viable uh, botulinum, um,
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+[12:50] bacteria, rather than the spores, or if you load it up with a little steria bacteria. But those are fairly, fairly rare and they shouldn't have grown too large numbers to begin with. So really what you're going to be concerned with are, are, are, is equal contamination in the form of colliforms and salmonella. And you generally want to look at salmonella because if you're killing the salmonella, It's a very, very good bet that you're killing the other, uh, other potential uh, illness causing bacteria. I mean, it would seem to me that like. Salmonella doesn't grow so well in the seem to me that salmonella doesn't grow so well in the fridge, but like your hope is that you're not going to get a listeria growth.
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+[13:24] Your hope is that you get rid of enough listeria or that you inhibit its growth with the salt combo enough that it doesn't grow in the
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+[13:31] fridge because that's the only one that... But the other reason is we're looking at refrigeration temperatures of 2 to 3 degrees Celsius. And so provided, you know, provided you respect that and you provided you only have a 2 week shelf life, um, listeria is a minor
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+[13:47] concern. I, you know, you can't say that this is going to be a product that's good for for a month or 6 weeks because now even refrigerator temperatures,
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+[13:55] wisteria would start to become a concern. So you always, you have to keep in mind, um, what time scale are you talking about too? If you're going to basically cook it and chill it down and serve it within one to 2 days. Right. This just isn't a very risky procedure. If on the other hand, you're a retailer and this might be in your supply chain for for a week, you really want to know you have you have a larger margin of safety during refrigerated storage.
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+[14:21] Okay, so also people should label their back. Everyone should label their bags, but I think people at home don't do it very much. Label your bags, and do you recommend an ice chill down or no? I mean, people at home do weird things with their fridge for starters, you know, just realize that, you know, any, almost anybody's home fridge that I've ever seen would be condemned by a health department.
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+[14:40] FairPoint, Dave. Yeah fair point. Uh, and then the other side of it is I read a really weird thing. Like something like 25% of the population changes the temperature of their refrigerator seasonally based on how warm or cold it is outside. Why would they do that? I have no idea. I, like, my brain melted a little bit when, when, when I read that finding for a large appliance manufacturer. And so, you know, this, this was a recipe that was, you know, meant for chefs and meant for enthusiastic home cooks who are going to be knowledgeable about food safety and be reasonable.
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+[15:15] And so as long as, you know, you use high quality ingredients as long as you do salting and cooking for for relatively short amounts of time, and then as long as you chill it down and keep it in a cold refrigerator, as long as you consume it within a week, this is a very, very safe rest.
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+[15:31] Okay, so here's what I'm going to say, because in case people don't look at the recipe right away. Your brine percent was 10%. So stuff's not going to be growing in that brine during the brine procedure and the brine procedure done cold, correct? Yes. Okay. Once you take it out, don't let it sit on the counter in the bag, do your cook step and rechill it. you know, lickety split so that you stay in the in the evil window as short as time as possible, correct? Yep. And label the bag and keep it in the coldest part of your fridge or, you know, if you can, maybe even on like an ice pack in the fridge.
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+[16:00] Good point or not good point. Yeah, exactly. And but challenge study done and proven,
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+[16:07] proven does not decrease the safety level of the fish that you started with appreciably. Proven that it had proven that it was adequately safe at 2 weeks. Right now, people, bear in mind that safety levels are done for a different thing.
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+[16:20] So there's, like, what we're talking about here is something that doesn't appreciably add to risks, as opposed to completely eliminating risks that are early. So don't dip your salmon in poop and do this recipe. You need a different recipe if you're going to dip your salmon and poop beforehand. I don't want to see that recipe. Hey, but that no, but all kidding aside. I mean, like a lot of the recipes out there, a lot of the the rules out there where they make you hammer everything are done with
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+[16:51] the with the fact in mind that you might be horribly contaminated with, you know, quite literally with poop.
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+[16:56] Yeah, and, and, you know, the funny thing is we worry about the risk of, say, a
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+[17:01] famine miqui or a rare, a piece of chicken that's still slightly pink, but the Indian
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+[17:06] is, we all eat salads with foraged ingredients, and, you know, we've all had grit in our salad. I mean, that's not just dirt. There's other things mixed in there. So one of the, one of the things is you really have to, you know, look at a recipe and say, well, what level of risk am I really taking from
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+[17:24] that and where we think, what we tend to think is risky as cooked? Uh is often not the riskiest thing we do. Yeah, yeah. Do you have to hightail or can I bring up another thing with you real quick? Yeah, I've got a few minutes. Go ahead. All right. So, I had another question in. This is from John Riper in Seattle, and he's actually got another question. I'll take later that Chris doesn't need to stay on for, but I saw also, I don't know who was over there is doing it, but I know you've done a lot of work with
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+[17:50] cheese, and he had a question about his cheese curds. He said the sources I've seen for cheese, you know, cheese curds and cheese, all use calcium chloride when they want to fortify the calcium levels of milk for firmer curds, presume. By the way, people, what happens is during the pasteurizing and storage process of milk that you buy in the store, you know,
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+[18:09] some of the calcium is rendered no longer available. You need the calcium there for the binding of the, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a
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+[18:16] divalent, uh, cadion, you need it there to bind the uh, curds together. If's not there, you won't get a firm curd. And so people add sometimes calcium if they're going to use store-bought milk, uh, to increase the firmness of their courage. And his question is, why aren't they using calcium lactate or calcium glucinate? Is there a good reason or is it just price? Almost certainly just price and that you're adding very small concentration so that you don't tend to notice the slight bitterness? Right. I mean, even I, who hate calcium chloride. I mean, the recipes I saw, they're using like a 100th of a percent, you know, something tiny. So no one's going to taste that. No, you know, and then, you know, that's, that's such a minor level of bitterness that, uh, um, you know, even super tasters who are people who are hypersensitive
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+[19:02] to, to bitter. I would be surprised if they're really picking up any substantial bitterness from that. And then the other thing, yeah, so that's my opinion. I think it's mostly just the price and convenience factor. Calcium lactate on a commercial scale, is just a lot more expensive than
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+[19:17] calcium, uh, chloride, and it's also less readily available. Right. So 0.01%. I mean, that's actually, that's got to be too low. a 10th of a gram in a liter. Right? Yeah, that's a 10 to a gram in a liter. Because you do have calcium already present. So the one of the things to recognize is you're really just fortifying. Yeah, I would, and I would say that that is almost an order of magnitude below the taste
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+[19:43] threshold. I would suspect that's pretty near or below. I haven't actually seen any studies on what the threshold is. I mean, I'm just saying bitterness. Imagine imagine dissolving a single gram of calcium chloride into a liter of water,
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+[19:58] right? And you're doing 10 times less than that. I'm guessing that it's not going to be that, uh, apparent. You're doing 10 times less than that. You're doing a gram into 10 liters of, 1st of all, not water of milk. And a lot of the way, which is going to have a lot of that stuff is going to be expelled as well. So you're not going to, I mean, the calcium is going to be bound up in the free calcium chloride. A lot of it will be expelled. I mean, non-tastable. And another reason to use it is that you can use a lot less than use of the other ones, and it is extremely soluble, so you don't have any issues where you might have, I don't know, some piece of grit left over that didn't get
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+[20:37] dissolved because you didn't agitate it enough and it got strained out or some sort of nightmare situation like that. So I would just stick with the calcium chloride. Uh, easier to, you know, easier to purchase, cheaper and definitely not going to taste it at that level. Right? Okay. Here's not a caller. Okay, cool, hold on once. Can we have them both on? Yeah. All right, call her, you're on the air. Maybe not. Hey. Hey, Dave. It's Colin down in DC. How you doing? Doing all right. How was it? Hi, Colin. Uh, I don't know if you know this, Colin, whether you're listening, but Chris Young's also on the air with us. So it sounds like, uh, the last guy was asking something about calcium, but I just had a, uh, was making some caramelized onions, and, you know, I've seen people, you know, uh, tend
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+[21:26] to give a result, and uh, time of all those folks are into using a little baking soda to kind of help it along, because the basicity of it, you know, speeds up
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+[21:36] to browning, but also, you know, the, I tried that and wasn't very impressed because, it does make it really mushy because it breaks down the pectin, right? But I guess helps helps. If you use calcium hydroxide, Would that give you the enhanced browning, but also keep the pectin firm? Well, you're not going to brown. Calcium hydroxide is not so soluble, so you don't want to use it as
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+[22:04] your Yeah, like you don't want to use it for that application. No. Yeah, okay. It also, that the problem is, it's, it's the, what, what speeds
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+[22:15] of browning is alkaline conditions, but alkaline conditions also
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+[22:18] speed the, the dissolving of the cell wall. So it really doesn't matter what salt you use to raise the pH, whether you use
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+[22:26] couch, whether you use baking soda or calcium hydroxide. But calcium. Calcium in the interesting thing about calcium hydroxide and have done tests on this, but not with browning because they were done aqueous. Yeah, I see. So using the calcium ions to try to cross-link the the cell, the pectin in the cell wall. Yeah, that works, but it won't work for your application because calcium hydroxide. What you would need to do is a pre-soak in a calcium bath, get the calcium into the vegetables, then lower the
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+[22:55] pH for the browning. You see what I'm saying? yeah yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay, so so so you basically do what uh what ticklers often do where they they infuse uh some calcium salts to keep to keep the pickles crunchier after after retorting? Sure, yeah. Or pressure canning. Right. So you can, for instance, you can do, you can do the calcium, uh, yeah,
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+[23:18] you know, you can do the calcium hydroxide in a boil, a little bit to do
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+[23:22] to, to prevent the browning of broccoli, let's say, and still keep it crunchy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've used it to a lot of other beneficial applications, it just seemed like a place where, you know, it has the, it
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+[23:39] had the hydroxide and it had the calcium all in one spot. Right, but if you're curious if it would, yeah, kill 2 bridges once. It would not it would not do the browning kind of stuff that you would get out of like the, uh, what was it you guys did in the modernist cuisine? Was that butternut squash that you added to the pressure cooker or was it? Uh, uh, the, the, the, we did it with carrots. We did it with butternut squash. We do it with bananas. We did it to just about anything we could we could catch. Yeah. But remember, they're pressure cooking. So they're going to make it soft. I don't know that even cross-linked pecked in. I mean, look, look at, look at, uh, canned tomatoes. They keep their structure and they've been canned. So it is possible to use calcium to cross-link depecting to keep it somewhat intact at retort temps.
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+[24:23] That's a good point, Dave. Yeah, 2 parts, 2 part process, or let's go back to the thing we were just talking about, Chris, the calcium, a little bit of calcium chloride, because I don't think it's going to take much. You know what I mean? Yeah, and you... Again, I think in with the complex sort
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+[24:40] of Myard flavors, I don't think bitterness. I mean, you have other things that are going to be slightly bitter too. So I think that'll just fit the flavor profile. So, yeah, maybe, maybe taking your onion slices and, and if you have a chamber sealer, just do a, do a vacuum infusion of, of, of, some calcium water. Hard water. Uh, and on one last note. Similarly, so, you know, calciums, your divalent ions will be, like, will cross-link some
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+[25:09] different, uh, different types of stuff we use. And have you seen that uh with Guargon much? Do you see much of a effect of calcium and other
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+[25:21] stuff in the viscosity? Well, I've never seen any. I've never seen any ion interactivity with glar. Have you, Chris? I mean, it's not No, and I haven't worked with Guar as much as I have locust bean gum, but. No, that's not, I'm just trying to think this too, and I don't, I wouldn't expect much. I mean, Locust being Don McGuire. I was kind of curious since, uh, you know, I do a lot of, like, energy research, and what, I was looking at, you know, uh, just water, water impacts of hydraulic facturing, and of
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+[25:54] course, you use tons of guargum there. And one of their problems in reusing the water is that, you know, you get an effect of all these geological salts, like calcium, flurides, and everything that's underground, causing stuff in their fluids to
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+[26:12] cross link and get sicker and get all this stuff. Well, don't they use... from kitchen suspect. Right. fracking fracking. isn't it borated? Don't they use boron? Yeah, boron as well. But, uh, you know, it seems like, like blondes or codium. Those those are things will add, but that's not present in a large amount in the geological
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+[26:37] formations. Whereas the calcium, there's tons of it. So that'll, you know, actually end up in, uh, you know, it can be like, uh, you know, 10%
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+[26:47] salinity just of calcium salt in some cases. Right. I mean, yeah, it's kind of curious. I won't say I'm ever... Calcium levels that high. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'll look it up. It's interesting to me. I don't know that much about fracking. I know that Guar is used because you can rapidly shift the viscosity. it. That's the gimmick. Right, right? I don't know how that happens, but I know that whenever you use Guar, Guar is a thickener, and we ignore calcium, and I use Guar in
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+[27:16] dairy and non-. Although you know, it's interesting. So, like, no, one of my old recipes was a Guar, Joan, Lo Asel,
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+[27:22] Joan mix, and there's definitely a synergy between Lo Asel, Jelan, and Guar that doesn't exist with locust being gum. I don't, but I was only doing that in a milk-based system and I never tried it in a non-dairy system. So maybe there is some sort of weak calcium reactivity that just I've never been aware of. I can look it up. It's not my memory. I'll go check the handbook of hydrocollage, the Nusovich classic, unless there's some newer book I need to look at, but I'll check it out. Okay, well, great. Thanks for shielding a bunch of stuff. All right, thank you. Fun keeping on. Cool. Thanks. Dave? Yeah, Chris. For having me on. I do need to run now. All right, cool. Thanks, Chris. And, you know, hopefully, this is good. is a good part about knowing people is that when someone asks a question that relates to them, we can just call them. Always appreciate it. Good talk to you. All right, thanks, Chris. And we'll take a break and come back with more cooking issues.
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+[28:22] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Seeing a need to help people sort through all the misinformation about healthy eating. Whole Foods Market added a 7th core value to promote the health of our stakeholders through healthy eating education. In our stores, we give you the tools you need for choosing the most nutritious foods and healthy
+
+[28:40] recipes, as well as offering classes with nutritionists and cooking coaches to help inspire good health and
+
+[28:45] wellbeing. Stop by your local store today and learn more about our health starts here program and wellness clubs or online at wholefoodsmarket.com slash help starts here.
+
+[29:02] And oh, welcome back to cooking issues. That was fun, right? having Chris on the phone? Yeah, yeah. Call her. By the way. Stas, what did you think of that? What? What Jack? What did you think of the phone, the phone and phone, 2 phoners at the same time? It's hard because they can't see each other. You know what I mean? I'm not answering that yet. Yeah, yeah, she's not answering that because she didn't even hear the question. No, no, no. People, people, she didn't even have her headphones on. Like that's how important her text session was that she didn't even have her headphones on. All right, let's I had a quick, like, fun little summer question for you. Roasting marshmallows. What's your technique? I use a searsal. Come on, though. I mean, yeah, come on. No campfire technique. Uh, well, look, here's my feeling on marshmallows. There are a couple schools of thought. I can think of three. There's the, I don't give a crap school of thought, right? In which case they just do it. And then there's on the either end, there's the lightly toasted puffed golden brown marshmallow lovers, right? And then there's the burnt crust, gooey inside, like, charcoal kind of lovers. Which one are you? I don't know. I'd say probably the first. But, you know, it's nice to kind of give it a quick zap in there and then you just kind of peel off that burn layer. then you can kind of go again, you know? Yeah, that's true. true. Stas, do you are you one of those freaks that doesn't like toasted marshmallows? I do. Okay, what do you, which kind do you like? We just did it on a campfire last week. And that's not what I'm asking. I said between the 2 things that you weren't listening to that I was talking about, which one do you prefer? Um, I don't know. Do you prefer it lightly toasted or do you prefer a chard? lightly toasted But both. I see people, do you see? Do you see what I'm dealing with? I don't want to say the wrong thing. There's no wrong, man. Because you're wrong. It's a choice. So the, uh, I think it's the difficulty with the lightly toasted one is that, um, a lot of times when you're doing it that way, you don't get like a gooey enough
+
+[31:04] inside. Now, some people might want the inside to be totally raw to have that kind of chew to it, but I think that often when people do that, they're going to under they're going to
+
+[31:12] underdo the inside. So to do that when really right, it takes more patience than most of us can muster because you have to hold it fairly high above the flame.
+
+[31:19] You have to rotate it constantly and make sure that you don't have any one section to, you know,
+
+[31:24] to burnt. Um, And just who has that kind of patience, especially if you're using a 4 inch stick that's a pain to turn
+
+[31:30] around. You know what I mean? I was cheating. I put a stick in the ground over the weekend and just kind of kept it sort of close to the fire and kept it there for like 15
+
+[31:38] minutes, so it really slowly cooked. And how was it? It was great. See, that's the thing. I think that's probably a good, that's a good technique. It just, who has that kind of, you know, that's that's more patience than I can live. I want a s'more or a toasted marshmallow. I want that sucker like now. Enter this series all. Enter the sears all, although you still have to be careful with the sears all because although it does it quickly and it's more even. You can still, you know, very quickly set the outside of a marshmallow on fire. Because, you know, the thing with the marshmallows, it's dry. There's not a lot of water there. So once it starts going brown, it can then go black and then ignite fairly quickly. So you have to, you know, you have to be you have to, you know, be gentle with it. So it's like it's either either you risk the burn or you take your time. Those are the 2 choices. I like them charcoal to be honest. Although I like a toasted one every now and again, but I don't know, I love that outside kind of charcoal overcooked action too. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So John Riper's other question, which I'll get before I get to the other question. By the way, should you have any questions in the next couple of demands, call them 2 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128. Oh yeah, Jack, your question. I think it's tough with 2 people on the phone because they can't see when the other one's going to talk. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Uh, Jack's, uh, John's uh, separate a 2nd question. What are your thoughts on equipment to create a cheese aging environment at home? Wine cooling unit seem to have good temperature control, but they don't control humidity or aim for a lower relative
+
+[33:04] humidity than or they aim for a lower relative humidity than cheese is need. Is DIY the only way to go, or is there a VISA, meaning spending money from your credit card? Alternative, John Riper in Seattle. Well, okay. Actually, you know what I've gotten a lot of questions on recently? Is this, uh, oh, Jesus, I can't remember the name. It called the steak locker. Have you been getting any questions about this recently? Have you been say, has Mark been asking about this? It's like a Kickstarter thing. It's available right now where it's it's kind of like a wine cooler, but it's it's tweaked out for dry aging steaks, so it's got humidity and temperature control for dry aging steaks and like, you know, light bulbs,
+
+[33:36] you can see what's on. You can put a salt slab in there, if that's your jammy. Anyways. So that's got temperature and humidity control. However, it's going to be putting it at a lower relative humidity than you want. So that's probably not going to work for you. Here's what you're going to want to do. You're going to want to go, uh, the only one I could that I know of offhand, and I've never used it, so I don't, um, I don't really know how awesome it is, but the only kind of semi off the
+
+[34:02] shelf. So it's not 100% DIY, but it's not 100%, you know, like plug and play.
+
+[34:07] Auburn instruments who, you know, is a leader in incredibly cheap temperature control stuff, has the TH210 temperature and community controller for curing
+
+[34:17] fridge and high relative humidity, right? So that's the key that it can do high relative humidity. And that's 190, 119 bucks from Auburn
+
+[34:26] instruments, and you just set your fridge on coldest, plug the fridge into the temperature plug on this
+
+[34:32] thing, and then whatever you're going to use to control the humidity. So, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily recommend like a pan with a small heater to increase the humidity in the fridge, or you could get a small humidifier that sits in the
+
+[34:43] fridge, uh, presuming that the fridge maintains a relative lower relative humidity than you need. And then you just plug those 2 things in, set it, and you can walk away and it should work. So you buy a fridge or, you know, a working fridge. One of these units for 119 bucks and some form of humidifier that you like and and plug it in and go. Yeah? Yeah, all right. Now, we had a question in that we missed before. Tom Fisher writes, where's he, where does he live anyway? Do you know? Do you remember? Shoot, I don't remember where he lives. See if we can find it. Dear Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. I have a logistics problem. I've fallen in love with hot lobster rolls. Hot lobster roll sounds like vaguely kind of vaguely kind of dirty, right? Hot lobster roll. Doesn't it sounds like some sort of like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I like him. I like they're delicious, but something sounds like hot and roll. hot and rolled together, I think, right? anyway. And I'd like to make them at home. The problem is the lobster meat. It seems way too expensive in both time and dollars to buy live
+
+[35:44] lobster, just to steam them to get the meat. Frozen lobster meat would work, but the affordable sources only have it in £2 packages. I need single serving sizes of 4 to 8 ounces and I don't want to resort to canned lobster, any ideas. Uh, okay. Well, I mean, look, in a lobster roll, it probably doesn't make much difference. The only frozen lobster experience I've ever had was with Whole Foods, one day I had to do a low temperature
+
+[36:11] demonstration, and I went to Whole Foods to buy lobster, not knowing that they somehow think that it's inhumane for you to kill a lobster at home, but it is humane to have some dude in a factory in
+
+[36:22] Canada kill the crap out of the lobster and then freeze it for you. Does that make any damn sense to you, stars? Makes no damn sense, right? Are Canadians inherently less cruel as people towards lobsters than Americans? Jack, do you have any thoughts on the relative cruelty of Canadian lobster killers and Americans? Even Stephen, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I would bet that in a commercial environment, like, I don't know, I bet it's even rougher. At home, you know, people are like, oh, sorry, buddy. you know, and they throw it into the pot. You know what I'm saying? It is true that commercially, they use high pressure when they're doing a steam. So it probably maybe kills them a little bit faster. I don't know. I've already done plenty of work on lobster killings. not going to talk about it now. I'm not going to get into it because I don't have time. But here's what I would say. If you can buy a £2 block of lobster meat that you like. By the way, also, if you train yourself in ripping a lobster apart, there's almost no time in breaking a lobster down. Like, I remember I was Bobby Flay opened this place called Bar American. I know if it's still open like a 1000000 years ago, right? I went to the opening party, and they had this giant lobster out there, and it was crowded, so crowded. And, you know, for anyone that's grown up on the cape or grown up around the cape or on the east coast and like eating a lot of lobster. I mean, we know how to break lobsters down fast. You know what I'm saying? Now it's true. If you want to get 100% yield out of a lobster. You gotta rip it open, like break open the bodies, get to get the meat out, but in a small lobster, that's not such a big thing anyway. And getting the meat out of the claws is a little bit of a little bit of hassle sometimes. But the guy goes, I say, you know, they didn't have enough horse dervis because they had more people than they thought, right? So they had that, you know how like when they're opening a restaurant, they have like the raw bar out that no one's really eating off of. It's just there for display. You know what I'm talking about, Stas? Youve seen that a 1000000 times, right? So they had this like big old lobster, like a 3 pounder or something, you know, medium size
+
+[38:06] for, you know, for people who get really big lobsters, but big for, you know, being served on a plate. And I say to the guy, uh, you know, one of the, I was like, hey, uh, Can I eat that? He goes, dude, if you can get the meat out, I was like, and literally, as soon as he said, if you can get the meat out, within, within maybe 10 seconds, I had to tail
+
+[38:25] meat completely out of the lobster and I was eating it. The guy had that, what the look on his face because anyone that's grown up eating lobster knows how to get the tail out of a lobster with no equipment and like almost instantly, you
+
+[38:37] know? You know how to do a rest, I know how to break a lobster. You go to Rhode Island enough. Anyways. My point being that you can get the majority of the lobster meat out in well under a minute.
+
+[38:49] Now, it's then it's minutes and minutes if you want to get the rest. The advantage then is if you want to make like a, like if you want to use the bodies and the insides to make some sort of a soup or stock, you
+
+[38:59] can, and then freeze that out. But if you don't want, if you want to buy the frozen meat, fine, let's talk about the frozen meat, which I can't vouch for the texture of it, but in a lobster
+
+[39:06] roll, it'll probably be okay. The texture of the stuff I got at Whole Foods, maybe if I had done a high temp traditional cook, it would have been okay, but low temp, it just fell apart on me. I couldn't get it to work right. Anyhoo, uh, I would go and purchase a uh, a meat or a brand, either a brand new stainless steel hacksaw or
+
+[39:24] a uh, meat, uh, you know, saw and uh, have it around anyway. going to be useful for hams and whatnot. And then you can just saw the uh, get really cold, get everything really cold and saw the £2 block of meat into portions and then uh, either uh,
+
+[39:41] ziploc, get rid of the air or better yet, vacuum pack the individual portions in the fridge. And then when it comes time to cook them, just throw the individual servings of meat
+
+[39:50] into, into, you know, water inside the bag, they'll thaw out fairly quickly, and then you can cook as
+
+[39:57] desired and make it a lobster roll. What do you think? Yeah, yeah. So I was like, sounds good. I eat, don't care. I eat, don't care. Okay, now we got some more questions. Um, it takes me longer to get in my iPad now. I had to change the new password because my kids figured it out. Don't you hate that? I mean, you don't hate that. You don't know what I'm talking about. But like the kids, they break into your iPad all the time. and play stupid games that rot their mind, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, um, okay. Wyatt Burns from Brooklyn, New York. Brooklyn writes in, hey, Jack, Dave, and Nastasia. I currently make seltzer in my apartment with the leaders soda bottle technique, so that's using a liter soda bottle, a
+
+[40:35] £25 or £10 CO2 tank and a carbonator cat. We go through it pretty quickly in the summer. So I'd like to upgrade to a carbonator system. I listen to the episode where you explain your home system and I would like to implement something similar, but I have a few questions. Okay. So we're talking about peoples is instead of having a system where you have to constantly make seltzer like a chump, so that would be either the bottle system or soda stream or similar, right? Which is like, well, well above the super chump, which is going to the store and buying seltzer, which is if you live in New York City and have our awesome tap water, you know, and you buy case after case of cell, sir, you're pretty much a
+
+[41:14] chump. am I right? Chump. Yeah, okay, okay. Um, You said you have a McCann carbonator, but which model would be appropriate for our
+
+[41:22] light non-industrial use? Would the big Mac be fine or overkill? Also, how loud are these things and do they run constantly or only when seltzer is being dispensed? Okay, so when you're buying a professional carbonator of people. What you have is you have a little rotary vein pump. It's the same pump that similar pump, same company, ProCon, that's used in commercial espresso machines, right? And uh, they, what, because what happens is, is the carbonator is a tank. fundamentally a tank. And the tank is hooked up to high pressure CO2. Now, remember, you're carbonating water in a carbonator at, like, 100 PSI. And the reason is, is that you're doing it at root with room temperature water. And so you need a much higher pressure than you would use if you were going to carbonate in a bottle, let's say, right? Okay. So, uh, so here you have. You have a high pressure tank and your water, even if you have a very high pressure water system, uh, which some people in the city do, depending on kind of how high their building is and where they are in the building, you're still not going to really top out much higher than like 60
+
+[42:24] psi. So what you need is you need a motor that can pump, rather, that can force under pressure the water through and into that
+
+[42:32] tank, and it sprays the water into the CO2 tank so that it carbonates
+
+[42:36] instantly. Then you have a hose that comes off and you dispense. You need a good dispenser for it. Really good dispenser. That people always chintz on the dispenser, and that's where they ruin their seltzer, the chumps. There's also a very, there's a special way to uh, to hook up a carbonator for the 1st time to get it to work. And if, you know, if anyone buys one and they want me to come on and tell them how to hook it up. I'll tell them how to hook it up on the air. It's not difficult, but it'll take a couple minutes longer than I have right now. Okay. So the choices you had. The motors are all the same, and you already have the tank. So the difference in carbonators is the size of the reservoir that the
+
+[43:08] Celtzer is in. And I would get the big Mac because it's going to turn on less. And, you know, that's what I used. I used to have a smaller one and it just turned on a lot more often. So I would just get the big Mac because if you're going to have a dinner party and someone's going to pull a pitcher of seltzer out of it, then you're going to wish you had the big Mac. Just saying, go for the Big Mac. Okay. Also, how loud are they and do they run constantly? They don't run constantly. They, what they, there's a little afloat, like in a toilet, but not with toilet
+
+[43:34] water. There is a float that judges, when the water is below a certain level. And when that happens, it kicks on. It fills it up, you know, to its final fill level and then turns off. So I'd say that, you know, it cycles on every gallon or so of seltzer that you pull. like something like 3 quarters or a gallon somewhere in that in that range. And how loud are they? How loud they are depends entirely on the rate of water flow into the carbonator. So you need to filter the water that goes into the carbon enter. Even New York City tap water, which is famously, you know, clean tasting and good. Um, a lot of times, some, there can be chlorine in if they, if they have an upstream problem with uh, something those chlorine into the water and that makes seltzer taste like poison. So you got to get rid of that. Also, your pipes, sometimes like throw sediment and other things into the water that can affect because even minor taste defects in tap
+
+[44:31] water get incredibly magnified by cells to the cells are making process. So you need a filter. The problem is, is that most filters, when you, when people, when they hook them up, they hook them up with a really crappy water supply line, such that they use some sort of 38s flex cable into the filter instead of like a half inch,
+
+[44:51] uh, you know, full water copper water supply line. And what happens there is that when the seltzer is trying to pump in, it chokes up. And when it chokes up, you get very small flow of water through your filter. So you actually want the coursest filter you can that has the, you know, the, uh, that provides
+
+[45:07] the taste that you want. So you don't want like a super heavy duty like removes cyst, removes lead. You just want an odor and taste and chlorine removing filter. All right. So it chokes up, and once it chokes up, it starts cavitating. When it cavitates, it gets really, really, really loud. And then when it comes, you'll know when it's time to change your filter, because all of a sudden your carbonator will get really, really loud. When you have a fresh filter, it's fairly quiet. If you keep it under the counter and keep the door closed in the cabinet that it's in. Another caveat. When you install a new system, there's flux and crap in the
+
+[45:39] uh, in your copper lines, uh, from the soldering and just residue and stuff, you want to put that stuff through a
+
+[45:46] filter. You don't want that getting into your carbonator because then the water's going to taste like poison for a while. And also your 1st filter is going to clog within like a week or less. And don't worry about it. Just the 2nd filter you're having there is going to last a lot longer. Anyway, there you go. Two, I don't have an ice maker and really don't want to use the traditional ice chest for the Coldplay. you're telling me, man. I did that for 10 years. I had an ice bucket with my cold plate in it and I had to fill it every day with ice, but you know, it's a hassle. It's a hassle. But I did it for 10 years. Are there any other techniques for chilling a water line that don't require ice? I'm considering modding a cheap mini freezer to directly chill a water bath that the cold plate is submerged in, but maybe I'm overthinking this. That won't work so well. Um, You need ice because what's happening is, is it's the actual melting of the ice that is, um, it's the melting of the ice that is providing the quick hit to make it cold.
+
+[46:35] And so you really need melting ice. You could theoretically, um, you know, use only carbonate cold water and keep the carbonator
+
+[46:44] in a mini fridge and the water in a mini fridge. And then as long as your draw wasn't too low. You could do it, but it's kind of a pain. I'd really, I would recommend, if you have the money, I can, I currently have an
+
+[46:56] undercounter Minitawok ice machine that is freaking amazing.
+
+[47:01] The cold plate fits right in the bottom of the ice maker, and now I have fresh ice for drinks for cocktails or whatever else. And it just, it automatically drains. That mini minute walk under counter ice machine is I have the boardroom model. It's really home friendly. I would look at it. Otherwise, I'll have to think more. If none of these work, you have to ask me again, I'll think more. And also in your rig, do you run the cold plate before or after the carbonator? I imagine I could get away with lower CO2 pressure if the water line is already cold going into the carbonator, correct? Not really, because it's not, it's not a system where it carbonates the water now, but you're not drinking that water for a long time.
+
+[47:35] So if you were to, if you were to keep the carbonator in the fridge, then yeah, you could have a cold plate and you could, uh, and you could use a lower pressure and push it through the cold plate 1st to chill it down, carbonate
+
+[47:45] it and put it in, but 99%, if you, I mean, most people can't store the carbonator in the
+
+[47:49] fridge because it's rather large. So what they do is, is they carbonate room temperature water, which is why you need to be
+
+[47:55] 100 PSI, and then they chill it through the cold plate and then dispense. But anyway, if you have any more questions, uh, Wyatt, uh, give, uh, you know, shout them back to me. he says, love the show, and shouts to Gunwash Jack. Shouts to gun wash. Wow, it's a 1st time on this show. Yeah? Yeah. All right. I got one more question that I have to get to today. Do I have a couple minutes, Jack, or no? A couple minutes? Sorry, not really. Oh my god, Jasper in Sweden, there's an auction that's going to end today. Like 3 minutes? Okay, go. Okay. Okay. I previously bought an old Bukey rotary evaporator, so I'm not going to have time to explain to everyone what a road evaporator. vacuum still. On an auction, included was the base system, and the condenser and all this, and the boiling flask and receiving flask and all that. Look up rotary evaporator on the cooking issues you want to know. Where I live, i.e. in Sweden. It's not that common to be able to get it cheap to be able to get cheap laboratory equipment on auctions, at least not what I have experienced. Moreover, Buke is a pretty expensive brand, and it's Swiss, that's why. And in hindsight, maybe I should have opted for a new complete IKA system
+
+[48:53] instead. Don't, they suck. Remember when we had to use that system and it sucked. It sucked. It sucked. It leaked. I hated it. Remember that? And a leaky road of app is bad flavor right there. anyway. However, now I have the R210 base. my questions are related to kidding the system to have it operational. At the same time, one of those rare lab auctions are now taking place in my neighborhood, which closed its door in a week on Wednesday, June 25th, Jack, which is why I had to get to it. So it would be great if you could answer my question before that. My 1st choice is regards to vacuum pumps. Would like to have a diaphragm one together with a vacuum controller, but the auctions do not have those. Instead, they have a couple of rotary vein pumps. Now all the ones that you mentioned are Edwards brand. Edwards are extremely, extremely high quality vacuum pumps. However, they are way overkill for the rotary evaporator application that you need. If you can get them cheaply, get them, they're awesome, but it's, again, way overkill. Are any of the, uh, especially the, like the E1, M18 and 28 because they handle vapor very well and they have a ballast in them. So then your question is are any of those rotary vein pumps a good choice in regards to your opinion? My main concerns is vapor and contamination. Should I buy a rotary vein pump and add some kind of inlet condenser or cold trap? You can, but that's a hassle. It's a real hassle. It'll be easier for you to find a diaphragm pump is going to do what you want. I use just a regular refrigerator pump, which is a couple $100, a refrigerator vacuum pump, but it's not ideal either. Do I need something extra apart from the gas ballast valve open? No, not really. You're going to have to close the gas valves out if you're doing really super low temperature stuff. Another important topic related to the vacuum pump is how important is the vacuum controller? They're pretty expensive and they do not have them at the auction. If you're not using a vacuum controller, how do you control the vacuum? You put a bleeder valve on the line so that you can control like a very, like
+
+[50:23] a multiturn needle valve to bleed air out on a tee in the in line with the vacuum line. That's how you do it, but it's a hassle because you have to control it. You have to sit there and constantly. And it's constantly pumping, which is also not ideal because you're, because you're constantly pumping, you're sucking flavor out of your system. So I don't, I mean, I've done it. That's how I used to do it, but I don't highly highly recommend it. You also mentioned a recirculating cooler that you use for your chiller. Here's the thing. That'll work, but if I looked at the specs on it, and at minus 10 C, which is what you're going to want to run at least, it only does 120 watts of cooling. The main mistake people make with condensers is they do not have enough power to condense all the stuff that they
+
+[51:01] can put that they can boil because the heater is at like a 1000 watts and your condenser now is only providing 120 watts of cooling. What that means is your condenser is going to warm up significantly until it gets up to about
+
+[51:13] 20 C. Um, So I can give you more input on that next week, uh, because those auctions are over. That my feedback on the auction items that you have. In other words, if you can get that pump cheap. I would get one of those pumps cheap, but it's not the same
+
+[51:26] thing, and I can also work more on a vacuum controller, but the circulator, it's convenient to have around, but don't expect it to do high volumes. You're only doing 120 watts at minus 10 C. So don't expect to do high volumes of rotary evaporator, work around it. And Jasper, I'll get to the rest of your questions next week after the auction is over. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[51:48] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[52:18] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques
+
+[0:06] and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:14] For more information, visit internationalculinarycenter.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:35] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to LA from the Britis Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:43] Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Join, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, Jack in the booth, but today, special guest, Mark
+
+[0:53] Ladner from Del Posto Restaurant in the studio today. How you doing, Mark? Pretty well, Dave. Listen, he's here actually to push his Kickstarter. However, since we have him trapped here, call in all of your Margot Adner related questions to 718-4972-128 that 718-497-2128. That's the last of my energy. I bites here today, gentle Peoples. Let me tell you something. It is out of hell out there right now. Although, Nastasia, I broke my usual rule of not biking the wrong way down the
+
+[1:21] street, just to avoid that one street with the cement. Because what always happens when I bike here is I bike down. I forget the name of it. It's like Johnson or White or something like that. There's a giant cement factory on it. And I inhale cement dust on the way here every day. I
+
+[1:36] come, and that's why I'm like, I'm in the 1st section. That's why I could do the intro because I went the wrong way down the street. Hey, Mark, how you doing? doing well, dude. So before we get into the general cooking issues related questions, why don't you tell us a little bit about your
+
+[1:52] Kickstarter? Well, um, yeah, so we have, I think, uh, this is 3 days left on our Kickstarter campaign. trying to raise some money to do a pop-up for a quick service gluten-free pasta bowl
+
+[2:06] concept, and we're hoping to visit some northeastern college campuses in the fall. Hopefully most of the month of October. And we're looking for some donations to get this truck so we can make some visits and get some people excited about
+
+[2:24] gluten-free pasta. Okay, a couple of things. Let's break this down a couple of things at a time, okay? Let's forget the gluten-free for one minute. Pasta bowl, right? Explain the idea, the genesis of the idea and why it's a necessary thing to have Italian style pasta done for lack of a better
+
+[2:41] word, ramen style. in our speed, ramen speed, not style taste-wise, ramen speed. Well, I mean, in my extensive experience traveling, the U.S. and a lot of Italy, I've never really found a precedent for quick service, Italian style, pasta, and I found that to
+
+[3:01] be frustrating and disappointing. When, for example, you and I, Dave, went to Tokyo and the hammer as well. Hammer was there too. We had a lot of examples of really great fast food that was ramen that was a nervishing meal as well as a quick
+
+[3:22] snack, and there's no precedent for that in America. Obviously, you've seen there has been quite a bit of momentum in the ramen
+
+[3:32] space as of late, with Momofuku, for example. But there is no sort of precedent for pasta done that way. And I don't really understand why. Is it more of a mental problem or a technical problem or both? No, it's mental. It's purely mental. I don't think there's any technical problems at all. Because you're dealing with fresh, fresh pasta. There's going to be fresh style pastas, not dried style pastas, right? Are you going to par cook? It dried pasta. Straight dried? It's made from fresh, but it's dry. But some others has to cook quickly, though, right? cooks quickly. Like how many so it's not like fully dried. It's not fully dried then. Or is it like air dried, but it's porous, so it picks up the water really quickly, not to give away too
+
+[4:11] much air dried. Okay, so it rehydrates like super fast. And explain to us the gluten-free. Um, well, this, uh, the gluten-free aspect, uh, started for 2 reasons. One, because we found, obviously, dealing with the entire restriction and preference in the restaurant that it was becoming an increasing trend. We're currently at probably around 30% of our guests prefer gluten-free. The gluten free lifestyle. Today, whether it will remain that way, is obviously in question. But we realized with so many people demanding gluten-free pasta that we would need to have 2 inventories, a gluten and an
+
+[4:54] gluten. If you're mixing the two, then you can't have a certified non-gluten, so you're not really doing much of a service to the gluten-free people. Plus you need different boiling water. Right, exactly. And some say different machines, depending upon whether you want to be certified or not. So we decided to focus all our energy on just making the absolute best gluten-free pasta, which I feel is as good as regular
+
+[5:15] gluten pasta at this point. Well, I know you're a big side by side tasting, uh, fellow, as am I, and you've done many side by side at
+
+[5:21] your restaurant del post. what are the results been? It's hard to say. I mean, it's non-gluten. It has a lot to do with the saucing, you know, if you have a delicious flavorful sauce, it's harder to taste the difference.
+
+[5:37] So I'm going primarily for texture. And you feel you get the I feel that I've been able to simulate an al dente texture, which is very unusual in gluten-free pasta because there's no gluten.
+
+[5:49] And currently you're using the cup for cup. I'm currently using cup for cup. fancy, fancy, fancy stuff. I like it a lot. But in volume, it's not, it's affordable in volume. Considering what you, considering the amount that goes per serving, you're saying it's reasonable. Absolutely. Now, uh, by the way, for those of you that don't see, here's the thing that maybe people don't know. Maybe they've never been to Del Posto. Maybe they don't realize kind of what, like a bonkers lunatic you are for pasta texture, but, you know, I mean, unlike Nastasia, who will eat, like, pasta freaking sludge soup, if it's handed to
+
+[6:22] her, cooked by students, she still will eat, like, a paste, a pureed, a ribolito of pasta, you might say,
+
+[6:32] that's just her style. I don't know. But, like, Mark... she prefers it done she prefers it done properly. She will eat slop. If you were to cook pasta to the point that I was going to dehydrate it and puff it. She would still eat it as a cooked pasta if I threw some crappy Marnara on it. That's just gross. It's wrong. It's just wrong. But I love it about her because it shows that she has some inherent, like, weird crap that you couldn't predict because she does appreciate, like, nicely cooked pasta. You, on the other hand, Mark, the test poorly cooked pasta. I do the test poorly cooked pasta. So one thing I can guarantee, uh, if you were to stop by, uh, this, uh,
+
+[7:13] this quick serve pasta concept is that you will uh, appreciate the texture that Mark is able to get. Now here's another thing. Who's this who's this nana chick? Who's that? I'm kidding. Like you say, it's non-style, right? What does that mean? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This means grandmother. It's our matriarchal avatar, if you will. And so apparently she knows how to make the pot. Do you like her style of pizza that they now sell in New York or not? And whose grandmother makes that kind of pizza anyways? I don't know. One other thing I just wanted to say really quickly, David, it's important to mention that I would probably consider myself to be a better pasta cooker than a pasta maker, and I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of the cooking aspect of
+
+[7:55] pasta. Yeah. That's how that texture is achieved. Are you a are you a believer in the undercook even more and then hot sauce, put it together, let it
+
+[8:06] soak? Isn't everyone who knows who? Yeah, but I don't use the water. I don't believe in that technique. you make the sauce a little thinner, right? Or what? Yeah, make the sauce center, but I don't use the pasta water because I oversalt my water. Why just use top water? Yeah, what's up over salt? right. Well, because you can't, you can't, once you reduce salty water, it becomes inedible. And then if you're combining it with other really salty things like rendered cured pork product or sheep's milk cheeses that are aged and things like that, it becomes compounded to the point where you
+
+[8:35] can't. I've never eat it. You know the uh, the commercial uh, pasta cookers that are like redone fryers with this
+
+[8:42] dark skimmer on the top? You use those things? How do you keep the salt level constant? You have to keep tasting it. It's really not a big deal, but yes, you have to keep tasting. All right. I've never really used one. They suck. Really? Is there a better system out there? There is not. Yeah, it's really, it's, it's really frustrating. They've been decreasing the quality of steel a little bit every year over the past 15 years to the point where if you get one to
+
+[9:08] last 3 months, a miracle. Really? It's that bad. Was it go at the well joints or where did it go? Does it just start throwing rust into the water or what? Yeah, it's the joints. They, they, they blow out. Or it's just, it's just really cheap fabricated steel. And also, um, they'll actually tell you that uh, they prefer that you don't use salt.
+
+[9:29] I want to just say that you prefer that you not cook pasta in the pasta cooker. That would be easier. You know what I think it is? A lot of times, anytime there is, one of the problems with stainless steel, 304 and 316, which I think they mainly make these things out of 304 and
+
+[9:42] 316, is that if there's any non-stainless stuff in it, it will migrate and shaft the stainless.
+
+[9:49] So if they use any non-stainless stuff in it at all, this is
+
+[9:54] like, if you look up for people, if you care about this stuff, like look up the dangers of using non-stainless screws in stainless fabrication when it's exposed to corrosive environments, and there is no other environment as corrosive
+
+[10:06] as, well, there are. But, I mean, no cooking environment, as gross to hot, salted water, you know? So I don't know whether it's maybe like even just cooks using non-stainless,
+
+[10:17] but like, you know how those fake stainless racks when you throw them in an emerging circulator? They rust out in like a day. Yeah, we've had, you know, $5000 machines that have pitted out in
+
+[10:27] in 3 days. I wonder whether it's the racking search they're shafting it. Like whether it's just poor quality. I mean, something in there is shafting it. Like if they use the real stuff, it should last longer than that. In the past, it has. They've just, they've just chose to use cheaper and cheaper steel. Right. But I wonder whether it's... I wonder if they cheaped out on one particular thing. It's ruining everything. Like maybe they're maybe they're saving because I'm having this problem manufacturing in China now. Maybe they're saving a nickel and costing you 5 grand. You know what I mean? No, no, no, it seems like it could be true. It's like for 5000 bucks, I'll give you this plastic cook, it's going to last for a month and a half . For $5002. It'll last for 3 years. You know what I'm saying? So one last thing, one last thing before we just start that dealing with regular questions. So, like, let's say I was to go on the website and donate some money.
+
+[11:14] What do I get? Well, you could get everything from, we've been working, Dave, on an instant possible because this pasta that we've created can actually be cooked in one
+
+[11:25] minute. So, as I know, you are a huge fan of microwave cooking. I also am a proponent of the magic of the microwave. people just haven't thought enough about it. So this pasta is actually cooked in a microwave. You mean the, like, I mean, the one that you're going to the instant one. Both. And you're gonna, and so if I pay, are you going to send me some of this stuff? Is that how? Okay, so listen here. It's only for 10 bucks, Steve. That's a freaking bargain. You should charge more. Or like let people buy. Here's the problem with Kickstarter. Can someone go buy a case of this crap and give you a 100 bucks instead? Absolutely not. Freaking Kickstarter. I know. If I'm going to cookstarter campaigns. Hey, hey, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, my point is, is that like, why don't they let you consider like a 10 box of this stuff like a different skew from like,
+
+[12:13] or, hey, hey, if it was a different flavor, you could do it? We're also selling a kilo bag. Sweet. of the instant stuff? On the, on the, on the, I'm not saying, but you know what I've always wanted to own? I've always wanted to own one of those things that can seal the top of a bowl or a cup with a little thing. Do you have that? Are you going to get the, or are you going to blow it? You know where to get one? I mean, I've gone to the packaging fairs. I don't know how much they cost, but wouldn't that be sick if you had the little, you could literally make the, my kids love hearty chicken. They don't like the actual Asian versions, but the really crappy, hearty chicken noodle one, because it doesn't have any vegetables, that's why. They love that that fake that fake soup stuff there. It's good stuff. They have new ones that are like perforated secondary skin lids, so you can like drain out the cooking water, which is pretty cool. So, is that your favorite new word, skin lid? Skin lid. She's got the look, she's got the lip. Best prize is having Marco cook at your house, I think. I will go cook at your house for a nominal fee. How much does that cost? How much stuff? Five grand? Five grand. And how many people you cook for? 12? 10 or 12. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Do the math. What is that? a lot. No, it's not that much. much is that? Well, it would be... Yeah, but we... roughly the cost of going to Del Posto. We bring all the food and some nice bottles of Chianti. It's like it's roughly the cost for you to go out to have a dinner at Del
+
+[13:36] Posto. And instead, Mark Ladder will come to your house, which is sure to impress your buddies. We would impress my buddies. And we could enjoy some gluten-free pasta or some gluten pasta. Yeah, so I can cook that too. Are you going to make any, will you make any of your, like, famous, like, billion layer lasagna, please? Sure, why not? Love that stuff. Is it billionaire lasagna working? Is it working in no gluten form very well? It does very well. Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. It's good on a stick too, Dave, which I figured you'd appreciate. You could probably eat it on your bike. Well, geez, if you're going to put on a stick, do you, well, you can chill it. Skewer it. Exactly. And then, but then the question is, can you make it such that you, we will stick together enough once it's rethurned? No. We got to coat it with something and then fry it. We prefer to serve it cold with hot sauce. Mm, cold with hot sauce. That sounds like some sort of like a revenge-based, like metaphor. Stas will figure that out. of being the queen of revenge. Yeah, sure I figured it out. All right. Okay, so let's look at some question. I've got a live call. Oh, live caller. live caller. on the air. Hello, hello, Dave. I have a question for you. I have recently bought some carbon steel pants. Okay. Uh, and I, I seasoned on what I thought was properly at the time, but I think I used a little bit too much oil. I was wondering if you knew a good way to kind of set them back to factory
+
+[14:56] without, and I prefer not to use anything like uh, electrolysis. Okay. So, uh, the way to tell if you have too much oil when you're seasoning it is you'll have A, you'll have drip marks on the inside, like little bumps and you'll have kind of a stickiness in the uh, in the bottom of the pan, right, Mark? Is that what you're noticing? How hot does your oven get? Do you have a self-clean? Do you have a self-cleans cycle in your oven? Uh, I, uh, I'm using these as in a professional setting, so... I mean, if you have someone with access to a self-cleaning oven, just remove any, any, any plastic handles and throw the pans in on self-clean, and it'll incinerate all of the stuff that's on
+
+[15:39] it, and then you're starting from scratch. I mean, you can do it. You can do it on your on like a commercial range top. The problem is, is it's really going to smoke out the kitchen and you have a real, like, unless you're really careful with it. You going to warp the bottom of your pan. Neither of which is things you want. You much prefer the even heat of an oven, but a standard commercial oven in
+
+[16:06] a runaway is only going to get up to about 550 and you need to get, you need to get over 6 and 6, I would say 656 and change to burn that stuff off.
+
+[16:14] If you have access to like a wood fired oven, you can do that or if you have access to like a real pizza, you know,
+
+[16:21] oven, that'll probably get hot enough to burn the sucker off. What do you think, Mark? Have you had access to a wood fire oven? Oh yeah, cool. fire the hell out of it. Like fire the ever loving hell out of it, then brush the stuff to the sides, throw the pan in, and
+
+[16:35] this, you know, stand back, let the smoke. it'll smoke off. Uh, it might take it a while. You can tell because it'll look like steel again. It'll never look fresh. It's going to look kind of black, but it won't have that coating on it, and then just, I would like, I would like, just give it a scotch Brady and then, and then re-season, but, you know, obviously be careful about not dripping too much oil in it next time. You know what I usually do? I usually put the oil. I put a little in the bottom. I run it around, and then I quickly just take a, uh, uh, like
+
+[17:04] a, the problem with paper towels, I use them, but is they can throw lint into it and leave little lintty jobbies into things, so you have to be kind of
+
+[17:11] careful. They make specific kind of, like, brushes and things like this if
+
+[17:15] you, like, the crate making people have, like, oiling pads that don't throw lint off, but then I just wipe it around the pan,
+
+[17:21] like, let it drip, wipe it off to get the excess out and then throw it in the oven. I do that like five, 6 times, and then it builds up enough of a coat so that you can build from there, you
+
+[17:30] know? You have a better thing other than paper towels, Mark, to use for that? I mean, I do, but it sucks. like, um, like kitchen side towels or white balls. I like white balls. which is a white ball? Is that the Japanese sport towel? What is that? Yeah, I can believe it is. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about, those Japanese sushi sports house? is so expensive, man. Yeah, they're good. Yeah, but like the only issue with paper, side towels and paper towels. Hey, you know, you could probably you'd ruin it. So the front of house is going to get pissed, but you could use a polishing cloth. they would hate you Those were great. Yeah, they would hate you though. But whatever. I mean, the thing is, if you throw it away, you can blame the front of house for having lost it, right? I'm kidding. dont do that to your front house. Anyway, all right, hold on, let's go on to a question. We have a question. Oh, is that good? Is that good? You happy with that? Let us know how it works. Perfect, thank you very much. All right, cool. Okay, Alex, in Toronto wrote in, and we'll take this question and then we'll go to a break. A few weeks ago, I sent in a question about Fond. I think you'll like this one, Mark. Not like fond, like fond of you, like fond in the bottom of a pan when you're making the meat. And one about an upcoming event you mentioned. I was wondering if you had chosen not to answer or maybe you got lost in the shuffle of the last few weeks. I totally understand if this sort of thing is limited interest, but if it did simply get
+
+[18:44] forgotten, here are the questions I sent before. Alex, we do not ignore our questions. If we missed it, it means we missed it. So please, anyone, if they send a question and we don't get to it, it means it got lost in the shuffle, like, maybe it got put on my iPad and
+
+[18:57] then, like, I didn't see it because I didn't boldface it or whatever, but, no, we don't we don't ever purposely, have we ever purposely ignored a question? No, no, no. We take anything. Wow. Just, like, remember, like, just like my grandma. That Stas is most famous, I think, saying back at the SCI about our intern, cliff, a go there. Now we're getting through now. Anyway, okay. Let's take the 2nd one first. Last week he started talking about an upcoming trip to Toronto. I'm a huge fan of cooking issues, and on the one occasion I was able to go, I love Booker and Dax. Will this Toronto event be something it is possible for a regular schlub like myself to get tickets
+
+[19:31] to best Alex. Uh, well, uh, being a schlub myself, I will be there. But what am I doing? I'm actually tending bar in which restaurant over there. You're going to look it up like I remember you're supposed to look it up. No, I didn't know. you want to know your flights. Why would the people on the air want to know about my flights? was a personal thing. No, it was not a personal thing. rate it. We'll look it up and we'll figure it out, but I believe that, you know, anyone in the restaurant that night can order the cocktails that I will theoretically be
+
+[19:59] making on the 10th. And then the other thing is there's a Toronto film festival and I'm going to be discussing the relative merits or demerits of Soylent
+
+[20:10] Green. And you guys have fire in the movie theater. Check this out people. Did I mention this on air already? Okay. So they want me to do a Sears all demonstration. In a movie theater. Let me repeat this. They want me to do a Searzal demonstration, involving torches and fire in a movie theater. Now, I like fire more than the next guy. In fact, yesterday my wife, Jen, was like, Dave, you're a freaking Pyro. Like, the theme that runs through your whole life is that you're a freaking pyro. From the time you're a kid. I said, whatever. building more rockets with Dax. I got like a, I got like a 5 foot rocket called G-Force that uses a G scale motor and like, you know, huge like crazy. Last time I made one. We had a problem with the ejection charge and a thing burrowed like a foot into the ground, would have gone through any car that hit crazy. Anyway, so she's like, you're a Pyro, you're imprinting the Pyro on the children, whatever. So I'm just saying, I like fire. Uh, uh, I'm a cook. I think most cooks like fire. Mark? Yeah, you love it, right? If you didn't like fire and you were a cook, that's kind of like a doctor who's afraid of blood. You know what I mean? I mean... Questionable character. Yeah, it's like, yeah, go into raw food then. You could be a raw food preparationist if you if you don't like the fire. Anywho, uh, I think it's unwise to do a fire demo. In a movie theater. It's like the classic you don't yell fire in a crowded theater. You know what the corollary to that is, math people? You don't make a fire in a crowded movie theater. You know? I'm gonna cry fire. I'm going to make the, I'm going to turn on the, this here's all. I'm going to go, fire. Just kidding. No, I mean, it's a ridiculous idea. You know what? Thank God it's not my movie theater. And you know what? Anyone in Canada listening, are your rules different in Canada? Are you allowed to light fires in movie theaters in Canada? Where I come from, movie theaters are made like a fabric and crap and like, you know, like it's easy to have people get jammed in the doors and trampled to death. So we tend not to light fires in movie theaters here in this country. You said the movie was soiling green, right? And that your demo is based off soil and green. Are you saying I'm supposed to cook people? Did you see that there's this? We talked about this already on air that there's a person marketing something called Soylent? Yeah, no, you were supposed to do something with it, remember? No, that was a different soil. So this soylent, like that one was the one that's supposed to, like that, like a television personality show remain nameless, said, will you do something with this product, soylent, which was meant to kind of simulate milt, as the guy said,
+
+[22:43] milt, for those of you that are up on your fish, fish bodily product terminology. I won't say the other. I won't say the human analogy on the air, but so I guess that would be made from proto people. But this Soylent is, how far can we stretch that? But this Soylent is literally, this person who's an engineering person says, don't you hate how you spend all this time wondering what you're going to eat and whether or not you're going to enjoy
+
+[23:10] it? Why not just take all the enjoyment out? Here's all of the nutrients you need that they currently know about mixed into a paste that you can squeeze into your mouth or drink. Takes 2 minutes and you can prepare a week's worth of meals and you could just drink it on the go. You don't no long have to worry about like whether you enjoy your life. More time for kickboxing and other crap that makes you not live any longer. You know what I mean? It's like, let's say you, look, when you're, look, I love kickboxing. I love kickboxing. I think it's really awesome. kickboxing. Because it was on the, it was on the damn, uh, like, video for it. Like, they show this person who's like, here's the thing about overly healthy people, right? Like, I think, like, crazy kung fu people that can do amazing stuff are freaking amazing. Like, I love that they exist. I love it that they exist. But like the idea that we all need to be like hypercut, hyper fit, like somehow that's part of what it means to be like an
+
+[23:59] active, active, healthy, like urban person in today's environment. I think it's just it's just gross. It's, it's, it's, it's like, instead of like your car. Expense of every other joy in life. Expensive every other joy in life and at considerable actual monetary expense. It's like, it's it's the current version of having a really sweet car. And I think in a way, it's just as gross as like, I think like being fit and healthy is awesome. I think like the hyper fit, healthy polish thing, it's just, it's another like modern craziness, no? Especially if it means that you're not, if you're, if you're eating this. Here's a note, here's how you can tell whether you fall on the right side of the wrong side of like health. If you're buying Soylent, you're on the wrong side. You know what I'm saying? like that's it. That the marker right there. If you if you are purchasing, uh, Soylent because you spend too much of your time, enjoying your life, and not enough
+
+[24:51] time, uh, uh, with more kickboxing. problems. Did you want to know your flights? No, I don't. I want to know. I mean eventually, but not right now. Okay, so the 2nd question Alex had was, uh, let's hang tight on the 2nd question. I have an enthusiastic caller on the line right now. All right, color, you were on the air. Hi, this is Matt from Milwaukee. I have a question about making an alcoholic splutch. Okay. So, we purchased, uh, our restaurant operates 4 nights a week and then on Fridays and
+
+[25:21] Saturdays, starting at 1130, we kind of switch it to an underground ramen shop, just flying ramen and beers and
+
+[25:28] stuff. We thought it'd be awesome to buy a slushy machine and make boozy slushies. And we were just wondering, is there any special formulation that we're going to have to do to make certain cocktails in the
+
+[25:44] slushy mode? I know Parsons, chicken and fish in Chicago. The Negroni slushies, and that was when we learned of that, we were like, oh, my bulb. Oh, nice, nice, uh, nice, uh, despicable me reference. I appreciate that. Uh, the, uh, so here's the trick. Negronis are, the reason why, 1st of all, as we all know, Negronis are delicious, and hugely popular in the food service sector for the past, um, you know, a long
+
+[26:10] time and recently have become kind of popular in, like, kind of general, general, uh, issue,
+
+[26:17] but one of the amazing things about Negroni, one of the reasons you see it in so many different guys is, is that that sucker is bulletproof. So it's it's good, uh, too cold. It's not really, the one thing it's not good. It's not really good too warm, but it's good too cold. It's good, uh, overdiluted, it's good, uh, carbonated. Very few drinks are as malleable as the Negroni is, which is why it lends itself to a lot of things. So it's not a surprise that someone made a good tasting Negroni in a
+
+[26:50] slushy format. It's a little trickier when you're dealing with with other products. We have to realize is that a slushy is in general going to be more diluted than a regular cocktail. So the 1st mistake people make with a slushy-based, um, with a slushy-based drink, is getting the alcohol level too high. You need to pull the alcohol level lower. Also, Negroni is interesting because it doesn't contain other than the acidity from the vermouth. There's not a lot of added acity, unless you're adding juices. And so you don't have to worry as much about the acid balance in a Negroni that's watered down as you do in
+
+[27:31] a, in a cocktail that contains acidity, for instance, a margarita. When you're gonna dilute and chill something more than normal. What you need to do is slightly reduce the acidity and slightly increase the
+
+[27:46] ratios, sugar. In general. So I'm not saying make it sweeter on a volume basis because you don't want to do that, but I'm saying you're going to want to decrease the acid to sugar ratio slightly.
+
+[27:58] Uh, and you'll notice this as you dilute uh, drinks down, drinks that, um, uh,
+
+[28:04] you'll, you'll note it. just notice this. That, that, that's the way your kind of palate works. For a general guideline, I would look up, uh, I have a published, uh, blender drink that works in a slushy machine that's done using a freezer in the New York Times magazine a couple months ago called the Italiana Stalliano, which is a take on a Harvey
+
+[28:24] Wallbanger. And that, that recipe is tweaked to work either in a fridge or in
+
+[28:31] a, uh, in a slushy machine. And if you follow those ratios of liquid to alcohol, you should be in the right range. And, you know, you know, if I had it with me, I don't have it with me. I have a bunch of recipes with those specs, and actually I have the percentages in my cocktail book, which is coming out in November. Uh, liquid intelligence from WW Norton. But so those have the specs, but I would start right around there. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Thanks. Thanks. We're always, it has like cute slots in it. So we're always going to have like a Wisconsin old-fashioned in one of them with the brandy. And then the other one, we actually want to have like stuff from around town and
+
+[29:11] cocktail guys from around town come by and do like whatever the hell they want for a week and just kind of have that as like a special
+
+[29:18] mark. Right. Well, one of the one of the things in my cocktail book that is kind of, you know, relatively new for cocktail books, as far as I can tell,
+
+[29:27] is, um, I have a chapter in it called cocktail calculus. And in cocktail calculus. What I've done is I've looked at, you know, the standard ingredients that we use in our battery cocktail. And I've knocked, I've, like, I've broken them down by percentage acidity and percentage sugar, and then looked at, like, alcohol, sugar, and dilution numbers for something
+
+[29:53] like, uh, I think like, uh, I forget what it was, like 50 or 60 kind of classic cocktails, and then all
+
+[29:59] of the recipes that I've ever created. And what I noticed stunningly is that the ranges for different styles of cocktail are fairly limited in terms of
+
+[30:09] their acid sugar ratios. And then in terms of how those acid sugar ratios mix with, um, mixed with ethanol levels for various styles of drinks. And so you can calculate all this stuff. So if you look up the numbers that are in that Italian
+
+[30:24] Estagliano, and you try to hit those numbers for sugar. And if you if you email me in a
+
+[30:29] question and I can get you the actual numbers, you're looking for a percentage ethanol, percentage sugar, percentage acid. I could talk about it next week. But that's ostensibly one of the interesting things about my cocktail book is this kind of new system where you're just looking at overall sugar acid and, um, ethanol percentages for different styles of drinks. But I have those numbers for blender drinks. And what I do for carbonated drinks at the bar is literally when I'm developing it, I just have those numbers and I just move the ingredients around until I hit the proper numbers and then it's a go from there.
+
+[30:57] Excellent. That's exactly what we're kind of looking for. Just to see if we could just formulate something like a sorbet, so if someone tells us like a day
+
+[31:06] out, like, hey, will this work in the machine, then we can, then we can do that, be ready for go time instead of wasting a bunch of hammer time without having a good product.
+
+[31:17] All right, well, I'll give you some of the numbers if you email any question, but you still have to go out and buy my book deal. Absolutely. You're going to have like 8 guys at this restaurant by your book. Cool, thanks. We're big we're big fans. I've been a listener since day one. Oh, I appreciate it. Like, you know, I I am, uh, I cannot believe the people listen to us for that long, but thank you so much. I appreciate it. Bye. still there? No, you gone? All right. All right. We're going to come to a break. Come back with more of cooking issues.
+
+[31:57] Hi, I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. This summer, Heritage Radio Network is turning 5 years old. Since our launch in 2009, we've continued to bring you food and culture
+
+[32:10] content like no one else, and we need, absolutely need your help. HeritageRadioNetwork.org is a passionate grassroots action-oriented nonprofit organization. That means we depend on the support from listeners like you to keep us alive. If you love what you hear on Heritage Radio Network, visit your website and become a member today. Thanks for listening, and thanks for your support.
+
+[33:02] The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network.org, the ICC with locations in New York and California, provide cutting edge education to future chefs,
+
+[33:20] restorateurs, and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Clay, and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy Can Hamilton from Chef Story. Check out our ICC website at internationalculinarycenter.com. And we're back. Welcome back to cooking issues. You still have time to call any questions. 2 more Gladner at 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. But before we get back to you, Alex's question about Fund. Uh, I'd like to give a big shout out thanks to John Reiper for his donation to Heritage Radio Network. Am I correct, Jack? Yeah. And you have some other fundraiser you wanted to talk about. Why don't you describe it? Well, it's our five. Did you know it's our five year anniversary this summer? I did not. Five years. Five, five, five, four. for what, four? Four? been a long... somewhere in that range. So what do we got for 5 years? So we're doing a summer fundraiser, and John Riper, thank you for donating, and we hope the other cooking issues listeners might consider supporting the network for all of the programming we offer for free, and we are
+
+[34:24] listeners supported, nonprofit organization. So any amount helps. It's heritageradionetwork.org, and you can click the donate button. Jack, let me ask you a question. So this programming on this show here. We provide this for how much do we charge for this? zero. Wait, but is it free for us to make this? Oh, it's not free for us to make? No, it's free for you to listen to. Wait, so there are costs that come along with running an internet radio station. So like all this stuff, this is not free yet. We do not charge for the product. Correct. So this is a bad a bad business model. Is it a kind miss business? Right. Yeah. So in other words, what you guys out there need to do is support our bad business model by giving poor Jack some money so that he can, by the way, Jack, the intro music today, was that, was that you with, like, the kind of almost
+
+[35:15] newsy, ding, ding, ding, in the back? Was that you? The only people who hear that are the ones tuning in live. That was before the actual show started, and those are friends of the network. Who also give us music for free? So, you know. Oh, by the way, Jack, the not you, Jack, Jack, the bar back at Booker and Dax, who's also in the NYU food program. You know what? You know what he saw the other day, talking about a friend of ours. He saw big ups in concert, Joe's band. He said, Joe, you know,
+
+[35:40] Joe also, you know, engineer here wasn't here. Those of you that listen back in the day, or when you were on the break, said he was an amazing
+
+[35:48] front man. It was an awesome show. He's unreal. He's really really good. Maybe we should all go see a big up show sometimes. You remember Carlos? Yeah. He's in big ups also. Yeah? Nice. Well, apparently big ups to big ups. But, like, I heard that Joe, like, strangles himself with the mic. He does, yeah, it's true. He like rips his face apart on stage. insane. He like stares at the ground sullenly for a minute, then wraps the mic cord around himself, chokes himself and then goes crazy or something like this? You would never guess if you met the guy. No, he seems like a nice fellow. insane on stage. He's not like alien Jorgensen. He doesn't cut himself, does he? No, it doesn't take it that far. Well, I hope not because Alien Jorgensen, I mean, God love him. I can't believe he's still alive. But not from cutting himself, but just all the freaking heroin, you know what I mean? So much heroin. I mean, I like old ministry. You like old ministry, Mark, and Japanese Styles? Yeah, right? Jesus built my hot rod, not the version on the album, which I think is not as good, but the version on the EP that had the giant motor on the front of
+
+[36:43] it was a song that's gotten me through many problems in my life. Many late nights. Jesus built my car. You know that song, Jack? I don't. Oh my goodness. He can't play it either because we need to get authorization. Do you think we can get Alien Jorgensen? You know who sings the lyrics on that is the guy from the
+
+[37:01] butthole surfers? Yeah. Anyways, that is a good song. And now it's going through my head, so I don't know if I'm going to be able to answer these questions. Yeah, I mean to talk about editable stuff. Yeah, it's fast. you know, our good friend's edible schoolyard before we go back into the question. And then we'll just go do questions like rapid fire on the way out. So, uh, you know, our good friends at the edible schoolyard, who, you know, they just they just help kids, like, you know, grow things and understand where their food comes from and make them appreciate things like, you know, fresh
+
+[37:28] vegetables. I mean, really terrible idea, right? It's terrible. Terrible. Terrible idea. Anyway, great. So they are having a fun raising event as well. And so Styles, why don't you talk about? It's to benefit there, a new school in Harlem, or a new edible schoolyard in Harlem,
+
+[37:46] and, uh, it'll, if you donate, you'll go toward vital infrastructure improvements.
+
+[37:51] So they have one where it's in Brooklyn, right? The current one? So they want to do one in Harlem and people, this is a good project to support. Where do they go? crowd rise.com. I think just look for edible schoolyard within it. Edible school year crowd rise. My son, actually, Booker is no longer going to be, his school's no longer going to be up in Harlem, but he's going downtown next year, but he's been going to school in Harlem for the past
+
+[38:16] six, 6 years or so. And like, you know, like a lot of the schools up there, they could use this sort of program. It'd be really helpful, useful, awesome, and worthwhile for your expert nickels. Now, you can't get Mark Ladner to come cook for you in that. But how do they get to before we don't forget. We didn't say where the Kickstarter is to find your thing. Go to wwwpastaflyer.com. pastaflyer.com. You also get to hear the voice of Phil Bravo, right? Phil Bravo. Phil Bravo. Yeah, but giant D-bag for not coming and announcing on our show. I mean, I'm just going to say huge debag. That's why we couldn't get a personal guard service or something. What is he such a D-bag? I don't know what the hell is. It doesn't work for free, Dave. Well, but it doesn't work at all. Hey, how many times has Phil mooched like liquor and or food off of some event that we've been a part of? Yeah, think of it. Don't have enough finger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no one has enough fingers. Even if you had a genetic anomaly and you were born with like quadruple fingers, you wouldn't have enough fingers and toes to make up
+
+[39:14] for the number of times, fill his mooched food and booze off of us. And like, you know, I'm just saying, all I wanted in return was a little bit of his sweet, sweet, thorough Ravencroft-esque voice doing his Tony the Tiger action.
+
+[39:27] You've not lived until you've heard Phil Bravo do a sad Tony the Tiger, saying they're great
+
+[39:32] in a really mopey voice. Yeah, I mean, you know, Mark, you have quite a sonorous resonant voice, but even you would have to admit, Phil Bravo has like the... And he's like a satin kerchief, that... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, back to Alex's question before I get kicked off the air. A few weeks ago, I sent her a question about Fond. I was wondering, let's get to the question. I make many recipes from Cooks Illustrated, which rely on searing meat to create a fond, which is then used as a base for a sauce or a gravy.
+
+[40:00] Do you like the word gravies does? Mezzo mezzo? Okay. What about, you know, Mark, I know that you're not from there, but like, you know, you hang out in Rhode Island, right? Are they like Boston where they call sauce, gravy when it's on macaroni, real times? Do they call it macaroni and gravy like they do in Boston? Sure. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in Boston, they get that weird. Where in New Haven, Dave? Do they do that? I didn't hang out with real like Italian Americans there. I used to go to a place actually called the Markagana Club, which was real, but I didn't talk to the cooks. It was all cops, nuns, dirty linoleum floor, and soap operas. And it was like, you had to have a key, and you went in and it was just like the weird, like, the weird, like, salad bar, and, you know, it's like the whole real deal. And, you know, but you know what they say about people from Marque. Better to have a death in the family than a Marca John at the door. You know what I'm saying? Yeah? Yeah, nice. Anyway, no offense to people from market. Anyway, so the, you know, tax collectors. Anyways, um, uh, I make many recipes from Cooks Illustrated, which rely on searing meat to create a fond, which is then
+
+[41:00] uses a bass for sauce or gravy. I was wondering if you could give me some tips about how to do this more effectively and efficiently. I sometimes have trouble getting a Fonda form at all, and often it takes a long time to form when I do succeed. It does take a long time. I mean that's the idea. I mean, there's no way, I mean, you can't not have it take a long time because the idea is to create those, those brown bits without burning it. I mean, there's no... You need some BTUs too. I mean, you can't do it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyway, let's hope. So, uh, when I do succeed, uh, much longer than the recipe descriptions would indicate. Maybe underpowered stove. Yeah. Yeah. Also, it seems that the delicious brown particles that are created end up suspended in the oil, much of
+
+[41:39] which must be discarded to avoid making the recipe greasy. I think a lot of people use too much oil when they're trying to do something like this anyway. I mean, like, think about it this way. Well we'll get into it. It seems to me that several other several factors affect this process, including the amount of oil in the pan. Yes, the temperature of the pan when the meat hits the metal, maybe more like the amount of heat you can deliver to it, really. You know what I mean? Um, uh, how high the element is turned and probably oh, element is turned. See, I'm thinking now that you have an electric range, which I've never had a good result
+
+[42:09] with an electric range, right? Have you marked? I mean, induction, yes, but like, like a regular, like, electric,
+
+[42:15] whenever anyone says the, uh, element is turned makes me think they have one of those old school electric ranges, which
+
+[42:23] of, they're like, they're bad. I mean, you can work with it. You who like those things? James Beard. weird, right? Also, James Beard did not like fresh sardines. liked canned sardines, which I also like, but they're not the same product. Why would you even compare them? They're not the same. Anyway. Probably the temperature and the dryness in the meat itself. What are the optimal conditions for creating a delicious my art tastic fond, and what is my best bet for doing so either quickly or efficiently in the home
+
+[42:50] kitchen? Okay, so, uh, here's the thing. What do you think? Mark, I think like a lot of people, they put, they're going to put too much oil in the pan, right? completely agree with that. Yeah. You want a little bit so that you get good contact, but you don't want some, think about it this way. No fun develops on the inside of your deep fry pan. And the reason is, is because the meat is not sticking to the side of your deep fryer. If the meat don't stick, then you must acquit or whatever. However, the OJ reference for it works. If the meat don't stick, there's no fond, which is why you can't create a good fondant and nonstick pan. Agree with me here, Mark? Yes, that's true. So a little bit of oil in there and you drop the meat in and and don't move it. Let it sit, develop the color. Stuff needs to stick to the pan. Stuff don't stick. Remember, the OJ, there's no font. You know what I'm saying? Uh, I think the other thing is, is that usually when I'm doing it, uh, I'm doing a bunch of meat in the
+
+[43:40] pan, and like, and in the same pan, and the 1st couple of pieces aren't ever as good as like the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, you know, when
+
+[43:49] you're when you're doing multi, let's say you're doing a braise and you're doing, the 1st couple are never going to be, uh, as, uh, as good. Um, I'm not, I mean, It needs to be hot enough to create, uh,
+
+[44:01] the, it needs to be hot enough to actually create the Mayard products that stick to the thing. So in that sense, if you overcrowd your pan and it never gets up to those temperatures, then you're just going to be, you know, steaming your meat and you're not going to get a good
+
+[44:12] fund, but, I mean, I'm also not one of these people who like puts like one little piece in and then because if you
+
+[44:18] underfill your pan, then you're going to burn the fond on the edges that have already been created.
+
+[44:23] So it's a, it's a, this is why, like, you need to start out hot once it's actually in searing mode. You can torque back on it a little bit. And if you overcrowd your pan, you're not going to create a fond at all. And if you undercrowd your pan, you're going to get burning of, especially around the edges of the pan. If your flame is, if you have a flame, if it's licking up or over on the sides. And burnt fond is nasty fond. am I right? is true. So I always do it in this order. I do meat first, then the onion. product, right? Do you always do the same way? Yeah, but like after the meat, right? Me first, and then you can increase the oil a little bit and do the onions. If what if you're doing a meat only, if you don't have that much oil, you're not going to get that problem with losing it
+
+[45:04] all the particles in the oil. And the 2nd thing is, is that don't scrape your pan, when you're doing this stuff, because you're trying to get the stuff to stick to the pan. So you shouldn't have too much stuff floating in the in the oil, right? Or no? Yeah, I think the main problem is using too much oil. The main purpose of the fat is just so that the meat doesn't stick. Yeah. Yeah. And I've never thought about, I've never thought about, I always saw it beforehand when I'm doing these because it's always in braces, but do you think that affects it at all, the salting? I mean, I think it would pull protein to the, it would pull protein to the surface and maybe get more proteinaceous stuff onto the pan, which is
+
+[45:43] going to make more fun, but I don't know for sure. Maybe someone out there knows. What about cold? Do you temper your meat or do you start it cold like right out of the refrigerator? I mean, it's interesting. I've never done a side by side, uh, but, um, I mean, you and I both know that usually what happens is, is you get the stuff out, you're doing your pre-prep
+
+[46:02] work and then you see her on it. So it's never fridge cold by the time it gets into the pan because I'm never that if I'm going to be searing it, unless I'm doing low temp work, which sometimes I am,
+
+[46:12] when I'm doing low temp work, then I'm very careful about keeping it cold while I'm doing my initial
+
+[46:16] sear, but if I'm doing a standard braise, I mean, that stuff warms
+
+[46:20] up. I dont even give a crap because I know I'm, in fact, you know, like I'm throwing them in and out of the same buckets where I'm like seared, you know, the seared versus
+
+[46:27] I'm seared stuff because it just doesn't freaking matter to me. Are you the same way or no? No, I keep it separate. You keep it totally separate. Even though you're going to braise the hell out of it? Compartmentalized, dude. I know. Well, you know what? the difference between like an actual pro and someone who came at being a semi-pro from the back end. You know what I mean? And this is why people yell at me. So I'm told that I have to get the hell off of the air. So I have some questions. I have one, some interesting stuff actually about soy, how to get a soy sauce flavor without
+
+[46:57] soy that I'm going to get to next week. Some low temperature bags and also, I have one. Maybe I can do I have like 30 seconds? Oh really? All right. So I'll also get to the care for nonstick pans, how to clean them out. Hint, Scotch Bright makes a non-scratch version that you can use in your Teflon in your non-stick pants. And about Teflon in general next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website, orders podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] The following program has been brought to you by rolling press, a family-run eco-friendly printing company. For more information, visit rollingpress.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is your guest radio announcer, Phil Bravo here, live from Roberta's Pizzeria, on the Heritage Radio Network, from Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling all your questions to 718-497-2128. And now Dave Arnold. Wow, yeah. Yeah, Phil. that's right Joined not only by the inimitable voice of Phil, his body, who cares? The brain, it doesn't matter. The voice, the voice of... of Phil Bravo. Exactly. What is that? A combination of humpback whale in Godzilla? What is that? It's an arrow. Never heard one of those? Phil's a huge gator fan. he has stock in an air horn company. I absolutely do. exclusively. Is that the brand of Air Horn to beat? No, the Fu Fu Zela. the thing from South Africa from the World Cup. Oh, that irritated the crap out of everyone? That's the one. Yeah, yeah. What kind of noise does that make? It's like more like a... kind of thing. Phil, by the way, teaches recorder to small children, and works at the at the Hall of Carnegie, right? Yeah, well, it's Carnegie though. Carnegie and uh. you know how Booker pronounces it, right? Carnegie. Carnegie. Carnegie, which I think is fitting for what the guy did. You know, he's a Robert Baron. So Carnegie. But then he gave it away. He invented philanthropy. Well, kind of. kind of. It's like, you know, we all like libraries and stuff, but I don't know that it's like, I don't know, it's okay
+
+[1:59] to like kill 10 people to give a third, you know, 11th person a book. Hey, you know, it's, you know, whatever we call that. Yeah, carnage. Uh, but the, uh, look, I love the Robert Baron era. I do. I love it. Also joined in the studio by Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Can you say the hammer and fill voice? Oh, I can do eight. Nastasio. The Hammer, Lopez. Oh, yeah. Jack in the engineering booth. Jack, you loving this announcement stuff? It is awesome. It's awesome. Phil, Phil. I'm not gonna make any insults about you personally. Your voice though, built for radio. It's true, yeah. I feel like I'm just here to like dance for you, Dave. Well, one last dance before we get into some questions. And obviously, I don't know if you know this, Phil, because Phil being a friend of Nastasia does not listen to this program ever. Sometimes. When we call him out, she fast forwards a part where we're calling him out and then, you know, we've said some choice things about Phil in the past. But as you know, when you're on the show, like you're expected to chime in at various points, you know, no
+
+[3:00] silent, even announcing bystanders. Uh, but before we uh, before we go any further, can I please have sad Tony the
+
+[3:09] Tiger? Oh no, see, this is the thing. You said sad, Tony the type. could do happy tone at the time. No, you'd had the best sad joke. You can do like a like... You could do like... like you did was an awesome one before. David Nastasia. They're great. I mean, you can do that. Do the, do the real jelly tiger. What do you have, like, what do you want? Like, do you enjoy frosted flakes? I do. Frosted flakes? They're great. See what I'm talking about? They're fine. You know what I mean? By the way, for those of you, and I'm not going to make him do this because he only does this, when he's way drunk at the Christmas time. But the voice of Tony the Tiger, the late great
+
+[3:51] Thorough Ravencroft, who was one of the lead kind of like novelty voices for Spike Jones, not the movie maker, the original musician, Spike Jones, right?
+
+[4:00] Who did, yeah. And, uh, also the voice, often miss, misrepresented the the Grinch, the real one, the cartoon one, not that BS Jim Carrey, you know,
+
+[4:10] nonsense. The voice was, of course, Boris Karlov of the Grinch. Everyone thinks Boris sang the song. Nope. That would be incorrect. That would be Thorough Ravencroft. He also had a band, but I forget the name of it. sure it was awesome. Wasn't he also the voice in Monster Mash? That I don't know. I think he was the, it happened in the lab late one night guy. would make some sense. Have you ever done that song in karaoke? I haven't yet, but now I know it's I'll add it to the list. October is not that far away, Phil. The band is the mellow men. mellow, mellow, man. Can you do me a favor, Jack, and check to see whether my man Thorle did the, it was working in the lab late one night when his eyes beheld a scary
+
+[4:48] sight. I will look that up. Yeah, nice. It doesn't seem like it. You don't think so? I'm searching. doesn't seem like it I mean, the thing is, it's not a question of whether or not, because he was a, he was a serious accession guy back then, so his voice was used in a bunch of stuff, like commercials. I mean, a lot of the guys in, you know, in that business back then. They were just like, yo, Thuro, we need someone with a low voice. Why don't you come and record something for me? You know what I mean? And that's, yeah, I'm trying to basically fill that role. So if anyone wants to call it... Phil Bravo, that role. And the other thing, you know, like people like some of the great music from the 70s, and I'm not just talking, or like 80s, I'm not talking like, you know, the different strokes theme, which is fine as far as it
+
+[5:28] goes. But I'm talking like Sanford and Son, that's musically great stuff. Fantastic. And, you know, it's just like a bunch of like session dudes just showed up into place when they're like, burn, burn, burn. You know what I mean? And then that's it. That stuff is awesome. Rockford files, intensely good tune. You know I mean? Session guys in the 70s laid down pretty much a ton of good music didn't get paid for. Yeah, we're in this in the 60s, you got your Mission Impossible. That's in five, isn't it? Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Yeah, awesome stuff. Although the new movie, they changed it to four. Yeah, because those D-bag remixing douches couldn't, sorry, family programs. By the way, it's a family program. They're like, no one no one can move the butts in in five. We got to put it in 44. We got to be in 4-4, so the buds can... Mission Impossible. Your butt's not supposed to move. You're supposed to be on the edge of your seat wondering whether these guys are going to get their faces blown off or ripped off as the case might be in Mission Impossible. Anyway, a lot of questions to get to. However, you can call into questions. 718-4972128. 718-497-2128, try to have a little bit of fill, but I can't go a little fill. I'm more like, 718, that's my normal radio voice. That was a good Dave impression. Yes, squeaky, squeaky, squeaky McGiggin. Okay. Got a call in from Philippe. Lately, I've been making fruit juice meringues in the style of L bully, which translates roughly too, the bully. I'm kidding, it doesn't. Uh, elbow is meat meat meringue. That would be kind of awesome. Stas had an, I for once wanted to be vegan face. That's the only time you've ever had to for once I wanted to be vegan face. But you would like a beef broth meringue, right? In a savory press? Like you have a savory presentation and like a little puff like F15. No, no, no. No? I mean, I've had Nori. You like Nori, right? Nori, right? I don't like the I don't like meringues. You don't like sugar meringues? I don't like the texture. I never liked your F50 things. But you don't like also regular egg meringues. No, not really. What about like, uh, meringue a soft meringue on a pie? No, don't like pies. What? You don't like pie? You don't like pie? I don't really like pie, though. You don't like freaking pie? I don't like hot fruit. Uh, lemon egg pie is served Haljack? Not hot. Not hot. Phil, what do they serve that? I'm looking for? I'm going to go for cold. I'm gonna go for cold. I'll say Frio. What about key lime pie? It's not hot fruit. What the hell? hot because when you're being hot. You don't need to heat a pie. You know I don't like puff pastry. is wrong with you? I'll eat it. I just don't like it. Chalk it up on the list of things. Like, the only thing that Nastasia really enjoys, human pain. And pasta. And pasta. Yeah, but how do you not like pie? How do you like pie? I'll eat it But like when you mentioned key lime pie, is it your key lime pie with either a meringue or a whip topping? That's correct. So although I can eat it, I like it straight. Not just I can eat it. I enjoy almost any form of key lime pie. I prefer not to have the fake green coloring in it. Oh, well, by the way, Phil, Florida. We're trying to get him here the day that Lenny was here because she hates all people from Florida, so we thought it might be awesome. Yeah, we wanted we wanted not to tell her you were from Florida to see if she hated you. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to be surprised. We're talking about Lenoqu from Cut for Cup. Oh, you shouldn't, if you're from Florida, she doesn't really hate Florida people. You still buy her products. I'll be actually in Key West in 2 weeks. Yeah? Yeah, living the dissolute lifestyle? Exactly. What's that one song? Largo. No, that's Key Largo. Montego, yeah. No, no. She's thinking of... No, no, she's thinking of we had it all just like Bogey and Bacal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, down where the trade winds blow. Sail away to Keeler, go. Killergo, yeah. Say like, okay, don't get it through my head. my god. Nastasia hung out with the son of that singer apparently does not like references to that song. No, gets angry. By the way, Bakal's still having it all, not dead yet, which is awesome. I saw her on the street, like, maybe she is now, but I saw her on the street, like, 2 years ago. Did say hi to her? Of course not. She saw the look on my face and started shuffling a little faster. Get the hell out of my way. You know what I mean? Lauren, awesome. Okay, wait a minute. We're back to the question here. But again, you know, why don't we get any callers in, say Nastasia, what the hell? How do you not like pie or biscuits or puff pastry? are scared of her. That's why Well, I guess with a nickname like the hammer. Right. You know. how can you not be scared? Um, okay. Um, in the style of the L Bullies beat meringue. I don't think I'd like beat meringues though. I think most beet juice products taste dirty to me. Like, like, jasmin, like dirt. I am using centrifuge strawberry juice. First of all, I would say when you're making a meringue, what you really want is the, see, because I'll finish the question first. I blend it with isomalt and albumen powders. That's egg white powder for all of you people who don't speak albumen and isomalt, which acts like sugar, but is not
+
+[10:28] as sweet. So it's a semi-sweet. But if you eat enough, it sure gives you the runs. Oh, because you can't digest it, but everyone's like, oh, I eat the ice
+
+[10:36] amount, and I poop my beans out, and you're full of crap. They ate a little bit of isomalt and they think they're going to poop their brains out. It's like the same thing with, I ate 2 alestro potato chips in my body was stripped of vitamin D and I was pooping all day. No, that's not how it works. You know what I mean? anyways. Having done these tests myself. Uh, now, uh, I let that hydrate overnight, which is a good idea. Egg white powder needs to rehydrate for a long time. A lot of times people have trouble. Whipping the egg white powder. They just haven't let it hydrate long enough. And then I whip it. Give you some whip. Whip. Come on, Stas. I know you like the eight. Whip, whip. Whipped it to stiff peaks. I pipe little kisses. Do you hate that even more? Kisses. Little kisses. Stas has her. I hate kisses face on. onto a dehydrate tray, dehydrate. Dehydrate horror tray, and dehydrate. They're crisp within 3 hours. you like the word crisp? Crisp. They're crisp within 3 hours and they're nice and airy. except as soon as I take them out, they go soft quickly. I realized this could be. Oh, family program. Family program. I realize this could be a humidity issue. Whenever anyone says humidity, I think of lethal weapon 3 where the guy goes diplomatic immunity and I say diplomatic humidity. And then like, I imagine myself getting shot. by that glover, right? No, that wasn't a Gibson that shot him? Was it Gibson that shot him? Someone will tell us. Um, I could realize this could be a humidity issue. I keep them in a deli container with a silica pack. What can I do to keep, what else can I do to keep them crisp? Well, you can just leave them in the dehydrator for as long as you want during service. So during service, what I would typically do is leave them in a dehydrator. But you're going to want to turn your dehydrator way down. Way down. So like if you're dehydrating, it lets, how do you say, way down, say, way down for me? way down Yeah, yeah. So, like, if you're normally rocking somewhere between 135 Fahrenheit to 125 Fahrenheit, in that
+
+[12:29] range, up to maybe 140, you're going to really blast them out if you let them go that long. But if you turn it down to like a hundred, 110, assuming your kitchen's not 110, you'll drive
+
+[12:38] off, you'll keep the stuff from sucking up too much extra humidity and you can just keep them for service in the D high. Barring that, what I used to do is get mason jars, and not the ones with the little crappy thin lids, the ones with the actual thick rubber seals, and I would put them in, I would put the products in mason
+
+[12:54] jars, in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum, and the lid gets sucked down when the air comes back in.
+
+[13:00] Just make sure that the air coming back in doesn't puff the lid off the top, which you'll see what I mean when you do it. And they stay forever in those mation jars and they don't require the silica packs. you just open them as you go if you're going to use a bunch for service, but if you need them to keep going during service, you can use the silica packs or the best way is to just have a dehydrator that you keep out there for service. Yeah? Yeah. Try the F50 instead of that meringue, try the F50. But I wouldn't centrifuge the... See, here's what's happening. You're using the egg white powder to add the protein that you, and the structure that you, you took out all the structure when you clarified the juice. Now it's just sugar with some flavor. And so you're adding the egg white powder, so it has the actual structure that an egg white foam would have because it literally is an egg white foam. And the sugar to add the bodying and the, you know, the kind of textural effects of the meringue. If you just, if you just keep it, uh, if you don't clarify the strawberries, you have all that pectin in there and that pectin can help provide structure for the
+
+[13:55] uh, meringue itself. And then you could just use something like F 50 and you wouldn't have to add any extra sugar if you wanted to keep them uh, like less sweet or do, do whatever you want. I just saying there's alternate ways to do. There's alternate ways to do everything. And then it's vegan, but not natural because metal cell ain't natural, baby. It doesn't come in the real life and the nature. Okay. Got a color. A color. You're on the air. Hi, this is Johnny from Memphis. How you doing? Doing all right. Um, I have a question about uh, circulators. After you cure an item, pork belly or whatever and you wash the salt off. Um, will it damage the circulator to, like, fill it up? um, with the cured item, with like cold water, 70 degrees or so, and put the circulator on like 90 Fahrenheit and let it rise up, uh, to 90 with
+
+[14:54] the, uh, 1st cured item in there. Wait, see, we're going to get this straight before we go on. You want to, you want to keep the item in water, not in a
+
+[15:03] bag and just have the actual thing circulating like kind of commando style in
+
+[15:07] the in the bath? Correct. Like instead of uh, rinsing the item. No, after transition after the cure. Instead of like running water over for a couple of atlas. You know, just bring it up to 90 degrees, change the water out, fill it up with cold water
+
+[15:25] again, maybe 2 or 3 times. Right. What's your what brand of circulator do you have? I, a polish fop? I believe it's a classic, just like the 1st one that came out. Metal? Yeah, no problem. Here's what you do. Uh, you're going to want to wrap the cage in uh, cheesecloth. so that, uh, things like, uh, you know, whatever you have in there, mustard seed or
+
+[15:49] whatever doesn't get sucked into the thing because that can be a pain in the butt. I've done it before. I've circulated woodchips, I've circulated lobster shells and butter. I circulated everything. The only thing you don't want to do is suck particulate matter in through the bottom of the
+
+[16:04] bell because it clogs up quickly. I mean, you'll know when it gets clogged. I've even done it with, you know, the new plastic guys. They're just a little bit harder to, you know, clean out. Um, but yeah, I would I would go ahead. The issue, like I say, is don't let stuff get into that bell because once
+
+[16:19] you once the stuff gets into the bell, then you need to disassemble the bell. If it stops, if you actually put enough particulates into the belt to stop the impeller from running, then you got to open up the belt, not the end of the
+
+[16:29] world, but, you know, you don't necessarily want it to happen. So I would just, you know, make sure that, uh, you know, that you normally, if I'm going to circulate spices in a bath like this, I stick the item in a cloth.
+
+[16:39] And you can actually do that in this case. You can just take the cured thing, wrap it in cheesecloth, tie it, and you'll still get good circulation
+
+[16:45] through, and you'll rinse you won't rinse off solids, but you'll rinse out soluble items. You know what I mean? Um, but the other alternatives to wrap the actual circulator itself so that nothing gets
+
+[16:55] stuck. Now, you don't want to wrap it such that you don't get good flow anymore. That's the that's the flip side of it. Right. All right. Thank you. No, also, remember, if you want everything to rinse evenly, make sure to keep all of the pieces of meat slightly separate so that water can get in between
+
+[17:11] them. As long as water can get even a little bit in between all of your stuff, everything's going to even out pretty well, but as soon as 2 blocks meet gets stuck next to each other, the parts that are stuck together might as well be the thickness of
+
+[17:22] both things put together. There's no there's no action happening on them. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. All right, very good. Good luck. Let us let us know how it works out. I appreciate it. Cool, thanks. All right. Um, basically, stars, what's this question here? What am I supposed to say? Don't worry about number one. So why'd you put it on the thing? Why'd you put what? I was gonna tell you. Okay. All right. but you didn't. All right. That's all right. We got this is from Brian Garrick. Do you remember where Brian lives? No. No, good job. All right. Do you know where I could find a 3 to 7? Sorry, it's not from Bryant. This is from our boy, B. Muncasey. But where does he live? They don't say. They used to, and then we Some do, some don't. Anyway, long time. When they put it on there I put it on there. Yeah, anyway, whatever. Do you know where we could find a 3 to 7 day vacation cooking school to learn modernist
+
+[18:13] techniques? Well, I mean, I used to teach those kind of classes. The FCI or the ICC now, the International Culinary Center. I still teach those classes. Do they still teach those? Does anyone know whether they still teach those classes? I don't know, Jack. Do you know? Because Dorothy was on. Yeah, I don't. I've kind of fallen out of that kind of, you know, the cooking school world, but I'm sure
+
+[18:32] chef steps probably does something. I don't know whether they do live classes, do we know? They probably do some sort of live classes or if they don't, they probably would set them up. But the ICC, I'm sure, still runs the low temperature cooking class that, you know, we used to teach. They may run still the hydrocollage class that we used to teach. I know they don't do the Harold McGee class that we used to teach because then he would call me and say that he was doing that class. And but the other the other alternative is, of course, see what they got on the chef steps, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, okay, and three, what would be appropriate streamlined scientific approach to figure out the best includes sous vide technique for bull
+
+[19:12] peanuts? Coming from Florida. Do you like bull peanuts? I love a boiled peanut. Yeah, I'm telling you. it's more Georgia. Yeah, but like, yeah, if you ever go to northern Florida, that's Georgia. Yeah, no, absolutely. Gainesville. Yeah, give me, give me some, give me some southern, give me bull peanut. No, like bull, bull, peanut. But yeah, it's not boiled peanuts. Bald. Bald peanut. I'm like, what the hell is, aren't all peanuts balled? I mean, they're kind of shaped up. balls sound boiled peanut, ball peanut. And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? The 1st time, by the way, that you've had a boiled peanut, if you're from the
+
+[19:42] north, like I am, you're like, this is gross. And then, you know what I mean? Do you like boiled pants? I've had one. Magic. Yeah. So, but, like, the 1st time you have it, you think it's gross, and it's part of the classic American, uh, it's not really
+
+[19:58] American. It's kind of worldwide problem of people have expectations and if something doesn't exactly meet their expectations. It's like, no, it's growth. You know what I mean? Because we're like, peanuts are supposed to be crunchy. You know what I mean? No, boiled peanut is not supposed to be crunchy. We forget that the peanut legume, peanut legume, and can be cooked as such. Boiled peanut tastes not like a peanut. So don't walk in. If they just called them boiled sack of goodness. You'd be like, oh, those are really good. Still sold by a guy out of a pickup truck on the side of the road, though. I think still has the same issue. Well, I mean, in other words, like your 2 choices down there are those sausages that are soaked in that red goop where the red goop's going
+
+[20:39] on, like half the way through it and the boiled peanut. I say the bull peanut's the safer route. Gonna go with you. Yeah, at least it's boiling. It's not in some that with like a bunch of weird floaties that who the hell knows what it is. like, I think that float is an onion piece. I'm not sure. And he's like, drag it out. I threw some bowled eggs in with the sausage fat. You're like, nah, nah, nah. What that called? God knows. God knows. Like, you know what I'm talking about, though, Phil. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. Anyhoo, the best scientific approach for a sous vide boiled peanut. Well, the 1st thing you got to do is you have to decide exactly what constitutes a good boiled peanut for you. First thing I would do is get a bunch of different kind of peanuts to do it on. And you're going to want to get like a good raw peanut variety. I mean, obviously I'm partial. Although who knows? Like, who knows whether Virginia's are the best for boiled peanuts? I don't know. I've done the extensive study because you don't need them to be crunchy because they're not going to be crunchy. But the Virginia peanuts are huge, and so they'll probably be good football peanuts, right? So their 1st thing is they're going to be going to get a good set of a good, a good supply of the peanuts. That's going to be your 1st thing. I mean, I'm sure like when you go to our Chinatown and you get the raw peanuts. They're still in shell, but they've been sitting there for like 8000000000 Jillian 1000000 years. Like, just like, you know, growing that sweet, sweet afletoxin. I'm sure that that's not going to make the best well of peanut, right? So then you figure out like, okay, okay, I got a good source of peanuts. well, what do I want? I have a blow of peanut. What is it about a regular boiled peanut? boiled. What is it about it that you didn't like? You know what I mean? And my guess. And, you know, I've done this a long time. I guess not boiled peanuts, but, I mean, cooking, low temp, is that the temperature control on the peanuts is not going to be that important.
+
+[22:20] So the advantages you're going to get out of going sous vide aren't going to be from a temperature standpoint. They're going to be from a flavor concentration standpoint because you're going to be cooking them in substantially less water. Uh, I don't think you're ever going to want to do an out of the shell boiled peanut because God didn't want boiled
+
+[22:37] peanuts to be eaten that way. God wanted you to shell the weird kind of papery, wet shell and then put them in that little bowl or throw them out the window of your car. Or just eat them. You eat the shell? eat the shell. Wow. Real southern. love that. where the salt is. Wow. All right. So anyways, my point being, figure out what it is you like about a boiled peanut, and then I wouldn't worry about temperature control. What I would do is figure on water level first. I would choose. I would choose without any spices at all, 3 different water to peanut ratios in a bag. I would do it at 3 different vacuum levels, one in a
+
+[23:15] ziploc bag, and then, oh, actually, you know what? No, don't do plain water. Do salt so you can figure out salt penetration on this. Get 2 tests out at once. Choose the same salt level on, uh, for your brine, do 3 different brine ratios on the peanut, and then 3 different vacuum levels on each brine ratio, start with
+
+[23:30] Ziploc bags, then a, you know, relatively full vacuum, like 99%, let's call it like 15 millibar, and then one where you suck the living crap out of
+
+[23:39] it and then inject as much in, almost like you were doing vacuum infusion. Cook those, um, those 9 bags in simmering water at the same time for the same amount of time. Pull them out in testament. See whether you can see any difference between them in terms of salt penetration in terms of peanut flavor. And from there on out, you're going to start honing in on which of the columns and rows, you know, vacuum level and brine level that you like the
+
+[24:03] most, and you can start honing in on kind of where you want it to be. Once you've done that, then if you want to add spices, you can add them at that point to see how much kind of penetration you get through the shell. Then? Yeah, fair. Take a break. Uh, I can't, I can't say if a guest announcer has to take us to break. And now we'll be taking a break. You're supposed to say rip out of cooking issues. Oh, sorry. We'll be right back with cooking issues.
+
+[24:49] Hi, everybody, I'm Phil Kalikio, the host of the business of the business here on the Heritage Radio Network, and this summer, we are turning five. The Heritage radio network is 5 years old. Since our launch in 2009, we've continued to bring you food and culture content like nobody else in this business, and we need, and when I say need, I
+
+[25:09] may need your help. HeritageRadioNetwork.org is a passionate grassroots action oriented nonprofit organization. And that means we depend upon the support of listeners like you to keep us alive. If you love what you hear on this radio station, the Heritage Radio Network, please visit our website and become a member today. Thanks for listening. Thanks for your support. You gotta be economically sustainable. Help us out. Thanks. Bye.
+
+[25:45] Today's program was brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run digital and offset print house that brings together eco-friendly methods, ethical
+
+[25:54] practices, and personalized service. Using environmentally responsible papers, non-toxic inks, and wind power. Rolling Press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and mindful sustainability.
+
+[26:05] Rolling press offers advice on reducing paper waste and energy consumption, helping you save money and minimize your carbon footprint. For more information visit rollingpress.com. Hi, I'm Reggie Watts, and you're listening to Heritage RadioNetwork.org. Welcome back to cooking issues with Dave Arnold and Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hey, Reggie Watts got nothing on you. I love him. I mean, he knows how to, I can't, you know, my favorite song I can't do on the air because this is a family program, but it's a sugar honey iced tea and then other kind of
+
+[26:36] stack. This has not been a family program thus far. It is a family pro. So Phil had Phil, of course, saves his best story for during the break. give a little 32nd shout out to your to your bull peanut friend. Oh, no. I just have a very good friend who had a, this is in
+
+[26:52] northern South Florida, kind of West Palm area, but would always drive home every day and there was both the boiled peanut person who was also doubled as the shrimp guy. And so he would have like shrimp just in the back of his pickup truck. And so it was always the internal debate of, is it okay? and bald peanuts. Yeah, but the shrimp also. The shrimp were on. I know, the shrimp were on ice. They were just raw shrimp that you were buying to like bring home. Like he was just like your shrimp monger. So, like, is it okay to buy shrimp from the back of a truck on a random road outside
+
+[27:18] of like Okechobee? I don't know But turns out. Oh it was great. Yeah. like after it was a long Facebook debate. And everyone, everyone was on both sides of the fence. So the New York version of that is we used to have a mini meat packing district up at like by 125th Street near where the fairway is now on the west side. And so when you used to come off the West Side Highway there, there would be dudes in white, they're talking like 70s, 80s, I think maybe as late as the 90s, but I don't remember it when I was actually up there in the 90s for grad school.
+
+[27:46] So it's like 70s, 80s kind of thing. Dudes would literally just be on the street. You'd pull off the Westside highway. And 125th Street. This we're talking about by the 24 hour McDonald's for any of you guys who know the neighborhood over there. And just standing out there with meat in their hands, like meat, like a steak, like a raw steak, like on 125th
+
+[28:05] Street, and you're like, I ain't gonna buy a steak. This is what Madonna was talking about when she said New York in the 80s. you know, had more danger. And, you know, it was the meat gong, meat guys at 125th. Well, the awesome thing is, is like, that's like the safest thing you could be doing is buying street stakes.
+
+[28:20] Uh, you know, at that at that time. I miss the street steak. You know, it's like, I don't, like, what I never knew was I never knew whether the guy was like, hey, yo, Eddie, go out and sell some of these steaks. They didn't pick up the order. They're going to go bad or whether it was, I'm stealing these steaks. I'm going to sell them because the boss is so drunk. He's not going to know this. fell off the back of the truck. Yeah, right. I used to have a guy that that kind of happened like with parts for sculptures that I was building. So I would go to this place and I won't I won't call out who it is. I'll go to this place and he used to basically, I'd be like, I need like, um, I need like some bearings and some
+
+[28:59] sprock, and I would get all this stuff and you'd be like, yeah, yeah, come back in like, uh, half hour, meet me outside,
+
+[29:05] but, you know, um, wing cash. And then, like, you were giving these great discounts on, like, bearings and stuff. That's that's the way New York used to run. We were so much more like, you know, not like now. Like a, you need bearings? I got a bearing guy. Yeah, I got a bearing guy. I got a guy that can fix that. But you know what? You're gonna want to bring some cash. You know what I mean? And we're not going to mention this. Anyways, so let's get some of the questions I missed from last week, yeah? I'm gonna rip them out. Pierre writes in, hey, Dave, Nastasia, and Crew, and if you knew you were going to be here, Philip, Pierre would have called you out as well. Thanks, PR. Thanks for all the great shows so far. I'm just about ready to take the plunge and buy an immersion circulator from my home kitchen. I don't even need to. to explain that anymore for our audience, right? You know, they cook things at a very accurate temperature, you know, most important, like, culinary advance in the past, you know, couple 100 years, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, one thing I haven't decided on yet is the packaging method.
+
+[30:00] After reading your sous vide primer, it seems the simplest way to get started would be with a Ziploc freezer bags. You are correct, sir. However, I am not sure how I feel about going through that much plastic in the long
+
+[30:12] run. Are there any decent reusable options out there? I've heard of people using mason jars for smaller items, but that hardly sounds practical for things like
+
+[30:21] steak unless you want them to be jar steaks. You know what I mean? I'd notice I didn't say Stas has the don't say tube steak look on her face. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you did have the look. I don't know whether that's what you were thinking. But that hardly sounds practical or desirable, not just practical, not desirable for things like steak. The only other option I've come across so far is the, and how do you pronounce that like you thing? the lick you, whatever. Silicon bag? Reviewers weren't too thrilled about the seal and the size, though. Any thoughts? Thanks, Pierre. Yeah, there are no good answers to your question yet. I mean, if you're gonna, there's no good answers to your question yet. I mean I think people are working on it. I know people are working on it, but no one's come up with it yet. I don't like the the re-sealable silicone. It's just gross. That's it's just gross. Like, having reused, like, uh, zippies before, which is what we call the ziplocs in the trapy column,
+
+[31:13] zippy, skill, get me zippy. Remember when you're buying the Ziploc bags. Do not buy, buy the freezer bags. The storage bags are weak in the technical sense of the term. They're weak. And not just in the, they are puny and don't do a good enough job. I mean, they are physically weaker than the freezer bags. Do not buy the ones that have the double layer of film, they suck. Also, do not buy the ones with the little uh, zippy doodle thing across the top, that little zippy doodle that that slot racing zippy doodle across the top. That's for people that, what, can't seal a bag like a human being and they don't hold a seal as well. So stay away from all of those things. Uh, and, you know, you could try those those resalable silicone jars, but they're also thicker. So it's going to take a little bit longer to get your heat transferred through them. Yada, yada. The people are working. Let me say people are working on it. Like in the next 6 years there will be, here's my prediction. My prediction is this. and maybe I can get filled to say it. In the next 6 years, there'll be a biodegradable suit. In the next 6 years, there will be a biodegradable sous vide bag. There you go. And so while we're waiting, if I were you, I would just stick with the
+
+[32:20] with the polyethylene, zippies, and don't worry, we will get around to saving the world in the next 6 years, right?
+
+[32:27] Yeah, all right. Uh, okay, let's get some more of these questions that I missed from before. We get some short ones, so I'll make it good. You know what sucks is when I missed the short ones because like I sit around yapping for everyone and then, you know, whatever. Hello, everyone. This is from Mildred Katie in Albany, New York. I like when people tell me where they're from, in a thing. You know, don't you like that, Phil? I know where people are from. I like that. If only Nastasio would put that in there for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless it's, unless it's Lena who doesn't want to know that you're from Florida. Although she loves people who like gluten-free products from Florida. Those are the those are the good kind of Floridians. They're the good ones. I've been enjoying the show. Mildred, actually. She didn't enjoy the show. She had a different question. Um, I think, right now I'm getting all confusicated. Okay, I'm a new listener, but I've been avidly progressing through the back catalog of my daily commute. I already love the show. I've been spreading the good word to other, so thank you for doing what you do. I love eggs. I didn't answer this question all right. day? Okay. I love eggs and eat them near every morning. Good call. The Incredible. Edible. There you go. I have a Volrath, steel coat, X3, 7 inch nonstick pan. They're starting to get a build-up of materials that don't seem to come off with dish soap. And, oh, this is not, this is not Mildred's question. Shock. This is Michael's question. I get all confused. You know why people, because I'm stupid. Susan Michael's question. With soap and hot water, do you know what I could use to get it nice and clean again and still retain its
+
+[33:54] non-stick properties? Or could you recommend a better nonstick pan? For eggs? So the question is like, I get 4 eggs. Do you even like nonstick pans? Michael. PS, I saw the patty melt video that I did recently and in all of the home kitchen. I don't have that kitchen anymore. Styles like my new kitchen better. And your 0 compromise approach. Styles definitely hates my 0 compromise approach. Okay, so the deal with nonstick pans is, um, they have a coating on
+
+[34:20] them, and what you don't want to do is scratch the coating, because that's kind of what you don't want to do. So, uh, I mean, quick and simple, like, just go buy scotch bright pads. Let the pan soak for a little. If you have deposits on it. Like certain things are going to stick to a nonstick pan. So, for instance, like, the one thing that I have that is completely nonstick, I don't, I have one regular nonstick pen. One. It was a scan pan. I've beaten the crap out of it and it's useless now. I use it only to cook things that I don't care about. Like, this is gonna sound bad, like bacon. I don't really care how bacon cooked because... I don't cook cook tilapia at all. I cook that using my garbage can. Like, that's the best way to cook tilapias with the garbage can. But the, you know, speaking of tilapia, I am going to be at Toronto tomorrow, doing the Toronto International Food and Film Festival or something like this, Tiff, not Tiff,
+
+[35:13] the graphics format, but Tiff, the Toronto International Food and Film. And so like, is this hilarious? So the person who set it up, they're like, they're going to ask you why you chose the movie. I didn't chose. chose the movie for me. Don't you remember? But no, anytime you do something, you have to pretend that you chose the movie. So the movie I'm doing is Soylent Green. And so what I was going to say is that tilapia is like, right. It's one of the soyans. You know how there's multiple soilins, there's like silent, red, soil and, you know, soil and, whatever, and silent green. So green, by the way. I don't want to spoil the movie for you. It's made of. It's the only one that's made of people, apparently. Well, who knows? You don't ever figure out what the other Soylans were made of. Tuesdays is Soil of Green Day, by the way, in the movie. Like you get the different soylence on different days. Anyways. It's like a 6 minute warning. Oh Jesus. So anyways, tilapia right up there. Right up there. Okay. So, uh, but the one thing that you do need to have non-steak is your waffle iron. So, like, I have a boatload of cast iron sizzles that I use, sizzles, like, you know, little sizzle pans that I've used for, you know, well over a decade, and right now, like, I use them exclusively for eggs.
+
+[36:19] But they've been, you know, I season them well the 1st time around and I use them constantly and I keep them in good shape.
+
+[36:25] And so, you know, they're amazing for eggs. Uh, But, you know, your waffle iron, uh, the amount of time it takes to get it properly seasoned so that a waffle actually releases from them is longer than I have
+
+[36:39] patients to do. And so I've tried using cast iron waffle irons and they suck. By the way, do you know that's why waffles have such a high fat content in the old recipes is they were built for old school cast iron waffle
+
+[36:51] irons, and so they need an abundance of oil to release
+
+[36:55] properly. A modern waffle recipe doesn't need nearly as much oil in it just for
+
+[37:00] organolectic properties to get it to work. And so you can, you know, that's one little known fact about waffle recipes. I don't cut the fat down because I don't care. But anyway, so like, but those, like, if you make the mistake of putting blueberries in,
+
+[37:13] I mean, not taste mistake, they're delicious, although taste kind of like waffles, right? Whoa. Put blueberries in your waffles, they will burn onto the nonstick, because the sugar will stick and burn onto the nonstick, and that is a business to get off of that thing. So I feel where you're coming from. So what you want to do is like soak it in water a little bit by the specific scotch bright pads that are made to be non-stick. I mean, sorry, to be non-scuffing, they make specific non-scratch scotch bright pads that are made for non-stick pans. Don't believe anything anyone says about, it's okay to use metal utensils. The particular one you have has steel particles mixed in with the
+
+[37:51] non stick coating and the idea of being that when you're scraping a spatula across it, it won't get damaged as much because the steel on steel will
+
+[37:58] resist. And so that's why they do that. They also have one that's one level above yours, where instead of steel particles that use slightly more expensive ceramic particles, and everyone now is moving away from Teflon. So that, uh, because, because apparently, it can release PFOA or
+
+[38:13] parafluoctanoic acid, and people are worried it's going to cause cancer. People are moving away voluntarily from using Teflon in their pants. Hook me up by 2015. They're supposed to have, people are supposed to voluntarily have taken it away. But anyway, uh, there you have it. Is that a good answer? Semi, good answer? Okay. Now on to Mildred's actual question. I have to do it quickly. I been enjoying the show, I'm working through the back episodes, because I've been enjoying it so much. I'm writing because I have a dilemma. I'm currently living with my 2 best friends, conveniently they're married to each other. He's half Korean and cooks like it, and she's allergic to soy sauce and other forms of soy. Uh, so. By the way, soy lent, supposed to be a mixture. I heard of soy and lentils. Soy lent. Uh, not soy that you eat in lententant. He has a Korean BBQ sauce marinade. That's 3 quarters soy sauce that we all miss him being able to make. So I'm looking for a soy sauce substitute that can be made in bulk. She doesn't like fish sauce, which is one of the more common Asian umami sources, sources after soy sauce. She barely tolerates Worcestershire sauce because she can tell it has anchovies in it. Yes, you can. One thing you could do is get Worcestershire sauce. Spin it in a centrifuge, and the anchovy drops to the bottom, but you need a centrifuge for that. Uh, we tried vegemite slash marmite, since it's another fermented grain condiment, but it's so thick, we've had problems thinning it enough for
+
+[39:27] the sauce because, uh, we lose the umami tone. Do you have any suggestions or did I already kill the other options? Thanks for your time and keep it awesome. Mildred Katie from Albany, New York. Okay, here's some quick things because Jack's gonna rip us off the air in a couple minutes. If you have money to spend. Coconut Aminos, which you can get in the Whole Foods are pretty good and they're like some sort of like fermented coconut product and they don't contain soy.
+
+[39:51] I believe Bragg's liquid aminos do contain soy, so you have to stay away from those. Another thing is make some of the old school fermented mushroom sauces. So if you go look up any of the old, like, like, ketchup, like, recipes, like from, uh, from, like, George Washington times, uh, you, they
+
+[40:12] have, like, mushroom ketchup recipes that, uh, you can look up and those, um, can be fermented and you can, and you can get them to, because mushrooms already have a lot of umami.
+
+[40:21] So then when they when they're cooked and then allowed to steep and do their own business, you know,
+
+[40:25] you can get that much out of it. Because you could also use them as a fermentation source to make your own Worcestershire sauce as opposed to an anchovy. fish, look, Worcestershire sauce is the modern equivalent of a fish sauce for British taste. They also have a really another one called the gentleman's relish, pipperums, whatever. It's like, it's like anchovies and butter and pepper mixed up in a little tin. Say gentleman's relish for me, please. It's a gentleman's relish. Oh, yeah. But I let my wife have it anyway. stuff's good. So try one of those things. And, you know, anything that has some form of substrate with proteins that breaks down over long fermentation period, you're going to be able to get those nice umami things, but think mushrooms,
+
+[41:05] think coconut aminos, uh, and, uh, you know, work with it, and those things are
+
+[41:09] good. Although, you know what? You got to get, is it, I forget, is it, is it the, it's the wife that doesn't like the, the,
+
+[41:15] the can't have the soy and doesn't like the fish, right? I think so yeah. I would just do like a little bit of fish sauce every day. and just work her up to that sucker because fish sauce is yo delicious. And you can also look for this Japanese fish sauce called Ishiri, the ones made
+
+[41:28] not don't tell her, made exclusively of squid guts. That stuff tastes like liquid meat. Oh, another thing people, sorry, not to blast your ears out. Another thing people do is they make soy substitutes by using concentrated
+
+[41:42] broth, like bouillon cube. It doesn't taste the same. But, you know, what they're really doing there is jacking the MSG. So it's like another thing you could do, just saying, is add something
+
+[41:52] like that has a little bit of that protein, amino action, and then a little bit of the MSG. But Nastasia is one of the people that thinks she's allergic to MSG. By the way, you know, I have the capsule. Remember when we Yeah, we got the cap, we got, let's write in if you give a crap about this, but they
+
+[42:07] have, we bought a gelatin capsule packer or vegetarian. You'll have to be gelton. Uh, for the event we did in uh, at UCLA. And we were thinking of actually doing a double blind radio, like male, uh, double blind
+
+[42:22] placebo, controlled uh, MSG study with our own pack gel caps, where like I would pack them with numbers on the packets. Stas would mail them out to people, and then we'd get reports back on the radio. And I know it's not scientific because I can't control whether you guys are liars or not, but I feel that our radio listeners are good people and they won't cheat,
+
+[42:39] right? And then we could have like, now, it's not legal also because I'm not allowed to do research, but if we're just having fun, then we're just having
+
+[42:46] fun. Do we have the insurance for this, Jack? Yeah, sure. Yeah, all right. So what I'm saying is, is like, if there's if there's interest in this, we could run a controlled thingamajing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't I have 3 minutes? No. I don't have 3 minutes. All right, so let me just go over the list of questions that I didn't answer and we'll have to answer next time. Oh, geebus. No, Jesus. This is already going to end the shows from now on. Simon, Simon, I swear on several stacks of Bibles. Your question on your question on carbonation will be the very Simon from the UK. I might be there in November for the book. I don't know. will be the very 1st question that I'm going to answer next time. Nastasia, hopefully will remember to tell me that. And we had 2 a couple questions we didn't get to today, one on Shadbury's. They had a question on mulberries. Listen, the trick with mulberries is, I'll say it really quickly. I'll do it more in depth next time. I'm going to get to the ice cream question that's also here that I didn't get to. But on mulberries. When you're looking for mulberries, The problem with mulberries is the black mulberry and the white mulberry hybridize very readily between each other. So a lot of the mulberries you see on the street here are combinations of the 2 different mulberry
+
+[43:55] varieties because they so readily hybridize, and the taste is radically different from tree to tree. Sometimes even within a tree itself, you'll get tasteless mulberries and mulberries that have a good acid balance. So what you need to do is wander around the city and Stas and I did this one year. We wander around the city, whenever you see a mulberry tree, taste one. If you like that mulberry tree, go back there next year, get everything you
+
+[44:14] can, and then go back next year, but you cannot judge a mulberry tree by the 1st even 5 trees that you taste.
+
+[44:20] And that is, Phil. Cooking issues with Dave Arnold. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey Farms.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Kurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to your land. Remember to Pizza Inn. Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, mostly every Tuesday we missed last Tuesday because I was teach vote from 12 to
+
+[0:49] 12 45-ish. Anyways, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So, Stas, while I'm calling up today's questions. Why don't you tell me what we did last week? We did a, you taught a class on carbonation with Shibas at the Nomad Hotel,
+
+[1:08] which is a nice place. Yeah, and Stas does what she does best in these situations, which is sit in the background and just shake her head disapprovingly the entire time. She's like, Listen, I've heard she doesn't talk because she's right next to me. You can hear it talk. Listen, I've seen to do this demo 8000 freaking times, and everything new you add is wrong, right? Is that pretty much what that's how you feel, right? No, it's the same anecdotes that you do. Like what? Oh, like just your trials with Carmen. Well, I have to tell them specifically. I know, but I just, like, on the radio, I try not to repeat. But like, if you have a specific thing to say that illustrates how not to carbonate,
+
+[1:49] then what's the matter? got a bug bite or something? Right now. Like, jumped out of this? What's up? Heritage radio network on show that I'm sitting on. don't believe you. It is true. Have any of you been to Nogalas, Mexico? Like, it's like we're a warehouse for Negal's Mexico blankets right now. like nostasia city. Negalis is, unfortunately, no fence,
+
+[2:10] no gals, but it's the only place in Mexico that I've ever been, and I'm trying to rectify that as soon as possible, go to what I would consider real Mexico.
+
+[2:17] It's like, what's fake, what's fake US? Like, if someone were to come to the U.S. and they're like, this is all they saw. You'd say, yeah, you haven't been to the US. What would that be? Newark, no offense to Newark. Like, what if you landed in, what if you flew into Newark airport? airport right? What if you flew in a Newark airport? No offense, Newark. You know, I used to live in Jersey, holding on, whatever. But what if you landed in Newark Airport? and we're like, okay, I'm here. It just got the closest hotel to Newark airport, and that's where you stayed the whole time. Sounds like a fun trip. think that Jack, tell Dave about what email you got today. Oh, yeah, I got a promotional email from like orbits or something. And it was like, hey, Jack, pack your bags. You're going to New York. Oh geez. Hey, here's an interesting fact, though it may or may not be true. about packing your bags. See, that is what we call bad cookie editing, bad kind of data sifting to try and give you a trip. All expenses paid on the L train, huh? Big whopping. $2.50. A little bit of a discount if you have the metro card. Anyways. So, uh, you familiar with the private browsing thing? I'm sure you are, stars, because your whole family's paranoid about being tracked. No, I don't. So on your Mac and other things, you can hit a button that basically says that your browser is no longer going to store cookies. And like, you know, 9 out of 10 people, they use it for the porn. So their porn can't be tracked. Right, Jack, you're familiar with this, right? Yeah, yes. Not the corn part, but... Oh, I mean, not necessarily. the incognito window. Yeah, so I don't know if this is true. I'd like to hear something from any SEO folks out there. But apparently, if you go to look up an airplane flight to
+
+[3:52] Mazadlan or Acapulco, something I was talking about, if you go look up a flight to there, and you're like, nah, I'm not gonna buy it right now. And you go back, like, 5 days later to look at it,
+
+[4:03] on, no, no, no, on your regular computer, the prices are higher. absolutely true. It's because they're tracking you and they know you want to go there. So if you log in with private browsers, browsers for money, browse what you want me to browse, then they
+
+[4:16] give you the old price again. That's crazy. disappointing about the world. That's so used car salesmen. No offense to people who sell used cars. many honest ones. But it's like, you know, why are you shafting me? Because, see, this is what everyone's like, I'm going to keep looking at the prices because they think that that's like a good thing to do. And they're looking at you looking at the prices. And hosing you as a result. So we got a cool auction here to help benefit Heritage Radio Network. This programming is free for you, but not free for us to produce. So we have a bid to win a day at the modernist cuisine cooking lab in Bellevue, Washington with Nathan Mirvold and the modernist cooking crew. One of the most visionary food technology and business leaders of our time. This is a once in a lifetime chance to experiment in the kitchen yourself with Nathan Mirvold and his team of chefs, chemists, physicists, and machinist. Peru's new cooking innovations. Ask all of your burning questions and questions about burning, and bring home a signed copy of the photography of modernist cuisine.
+
+[5:15] Place your bid on this package on charitybuzz.com now. Let's get to some of last week's questions. Brian Garrick wrote in about Shadbury's ice cream. Hello, cooking at your team. Hope you're staying cool and dry. I am not. I am a big pile of sweat, although those tone styles. I made it in, I mean, late as usual, but record time for me. I made it. You ready for this? Not door to door. Computer to radio. Computer to radio in 15 minutes from my house. You left at 1155. 53. Yeah, yeah. Like, I was like, like, how'd you do that? Uh, well, I've, I, I feel like I'm melting like the Wicked Witch of the West right now, but I just, I just like, I made sure that I was putting just as much power to the
+
+[5:55] upstroke, because I got straps on my, on my bike, uh, as I did into my downstroke, and it's like, I felt like people on the bridge were standing still because I was so anxious because of how late I
+
+[6:04] was. But, you know, I was I've been cooking all morning. I was cooking all morning and during the radio questions. Wow. So give me a give me a break. Give me a freaking break, made a lot of cocktails this morning. Not to drink, not to drink. I wasn't drinking. It'd be amazing to be here. Just completely wasted. No, but I made some of the cocktails from the book actually for this thing I have to do tonight. And did you ever have the vermouth in the freezer cocktails, the vermouth blender cocktails? So I'll give you the basic outline. You have to buy my book for the exact recipe. Oh, no, um, so you take, I've, it's called ebony and ivory. And I got I got a Dolan Blog for Mooth, which is, you know, the semi-sweet white. Dolan. And I mix that one with a little bit of vodka up to proof, water, and lime juice, pinch of salt, right? And you get the alcohol level, right, so that when you put it in, just like the Italian astagliana. When you put it in a Ziploc bag and throw it in the freezer, it turns into like a slushy drink in your freezer without you having to do anything.
+
+[6:55] And then the other one, that's, that would be the ivory. And the ebony is carpano, a little bit of vodka and water, pinch of salt. And you serve them. You mix it? No, no, no. You serve side by side in perfect harmony. Yeah, Paul and what's his name? What do you mean, what's his name? I can't remember. Stevie freaking wonder. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to get into it. Stevie Wonder, one of the Jack, one of the greatest modern musicians like that ever, right? I mean, Stevie? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know what people get all pissed because, uh, you know, kind of like the jungle fever and plus era of his life. But if anyone that I'd ever met had come up with any one album when he was in his prime, any one of those songs, like Boogie
+
+[7:40] on, reggae Woman, if you come up, if someone's like, you were one hit wonder, you're like, yeah, but it was, it was Boogie on reggae Woman. You be like, all right. You know what I mean? Because that's that's just so awesome. Anyway, Brian Garrick, Shadbury's. Uh, oh, yeah. God, I go on tan. Do we want to take a caller first before jumping in there? Sure, sure, okay. Callers on the line. Call her, you're on the air. Hi Dave. Thanks for taking my call. This is Gar in San Diego. Oh, nice. What up? Um, I was just, um, I was thinking the other day, I am a fan of cottage cheese. I like cottage cheese, and I also like goat cheese, and I looked to see if they make a goat cottage cheese, and I couldn't find anything. Um, have you ever heard of this or, is it even possible? And what are the differences between, I guess, goat milk and whatever they use in cottage cheese, I guess, cow, maybe
+
+[8:29] sheet milk? Huh. You know, I like, I mean, I eat a lot of cheese, but I'm not really an expert on the manufacturer of
+
+[8:37] cheese. Um, you know, my guess is that you could probably do a mixed milk one because there's a lot of mixed milk cheeses that
+
+[8:46] have, um, curds that work like, uh, curds that work somewhat like cow's milk. Uh, but, I mean, just my experience with fresh goat cheese is that it's got a very different kind of paste and that you have to age it for a long
+
+[9:05] time. But I could be totally wrong. You know what I mean? But I would guess that if you fortified it with cow milk, you could get it to work. This is something that, you know what we should, what we should do, honestly, Jack, are you listening to this? We should get Can you post a question into cutting the curd? Absolutely And then we'll we'll get their response and then we'll read it back on the on the air next week. That be awesome. You want to do that? You all right with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. I really appreciate it. I mean you're right. The only fresh goat cheese that I know of has a much more chalky texture. Not really cottage seedy, but... So what I mean, like, if you had, like, all the delicious mixed milk cheeses from Italy. Yeah. Yeah. So those mixed milk cheeses can have like textures that are in between any of those, you know? And I've had very aged goat cheeses that have only goat that have a fairly solid texture. But I've never had a fresh goat cheese that has a cottage cheesy like texture. And so I don't know whether it's possible. But what we'll do is I'll do a little bit of research. Well, Jack's gonna get a response this week. He's going to email it to me, and then once I get that, I'll do a little separate research on the technical literature that I steal access
+
+[10:16] to, and then we'll reconvene next week with the answer. Sound good? Yeah, right on. That be great. And if you have a quick 2nd. I have one more non-food related question. Uh-oh. what you got? What kind of bike do you ride? Okay, so I used, I ride, here's the thing. In New York City, you know, we have to have those giant kryptonite chain locks where your bike gets stolen. So the lock weighs roughly what my bike would weigh, right? Plus, you have to carry the keys and then you have to sit there and you have to string the chain through all of that stuff. So I made a decision a long time ago that I was not going to ever lock my bike ever. And so the answer, therefore, is that you need to get a folding bike. So I bought a folding bike called a down tube, which is really cheap because I'm a cheap bastard. Stats, right around. So cheap. I'm a cheap bat. So I bought this down to, but it got fairly good ratings. Uh, and, uh, I proceeded because I would throw it in my closet when I got home to, uh, completely destroy the derailer every day. So I was throwing my chain like, you know, 3 times a day and I got so irritated that, uh, you know, I was like, crap on this. I'm ripping all of the gears out and I'm going to make it into a single speed. But then I was like, you know what, the hell with it? Because it's going to be crazy anyway. I'm just going to go full stupid and I made it a fixed fixed gear folder on 20s. It's riding 20 inch wheels, which by the way, people don't look into the physics of it. In a New York City ride. If you're doing a lot of stop and starts, the 20s are as faster,
+
+[11:51] faster than unless you're going to buy really high end full-size jobs. Anyhoo. So I was like, ah, I'll turn into a fix because why not? Because I can I can do it. And then I kind of addicted to the fixing. But I leave the brakes on because I'm not one of those guys, right? The brakes. And, uh, and then uh, the problem with the down tube is, is that they, uh, you know, the steering is so high up on a panilever that because you're fixed, you start really, really, really hard. And so I snapped on going down to Williamsburg, I snapped the steering off and then had to negotiate going down the Williamsburg
+
+[12:22] Bridge with a snapped column there. And then I, so I was like, I got another one of that because it was under warranty, snapped it
+
+[12:31] again. So I was like, crap on this, and now I ride a Zooter Swift, which has a guaranteed for life
+
+[12:36] frame. I used to ride really thin. 12 is on the on the I ride regular light. They're custom wheels, but they're not real. They're like regular vello rims and then with I ride swabi, swabi, uh, uh, big apples just
+
+[12:49] because, uh, I used to ride thin and I was a little bit faster, but, you know, I've seen too many people wipe out on those thin
+
+[12:55] guys if any, if any crap gets on the road that I was like, the hell with this, especially with the, with the 20s. It's really easy to wipe out. So crap one, I got wider things. But it's still, and I have those, I have that weird butt friendly seat. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so that's what I, it's still, it's modified. It's modified beyond being fit, whatever, but yeah, that's what I read. Cool. Thanks very much. I figured you'd have a pretty interesting bike. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, if the bike, the bike snob would have a field day with my bike, I'm sure, but if any of you guys read, the bike's not,
+
+[13:25] but anyway. All right, thanks again for taking my call. Thanks. All right, so back to Brian and Shadberries and ice cream. Okay. I noticed that you tweeted a recipe for a drink special that contains Shadberries. It's fruit picking time around here and I've never had one. Where can I find them and how can I identify them? Also, there are tons of mulberries around New York that are ripe for picking. It's a little, the shadberries are gone now next year, though. I think they're the same as June berries, but I'm not sure if I think people might call service berries something else. Look, they're on a tree. I can recognize it when I see it, but it's hard to describe. Once you identify it, you're going to identify it forever. So they're purple. They're go red to dark purple when they're ripe berries. They're on a tree that bears alternate leaves, of course, you know, 9 tenths of
+
+[14:09] trees other than, you know, maples, ashes, and, um, you know, a couple others, uh, dogwoods, uh, are alternate. So, you know, that's not much of a help. If the finely serrated kind of elliptical is also not very much of a help. If you look at the berries, they look a little bit like a blueberry and they have that, I guess it's a calyx thing coming off of it. But if you just look up in a couple of books, Um, you can see the variants of it, and once you see it, you like, once you see it once, you like, you get it, and that's it. Uh, and there's a patch of them on Eldritch Street near the, uh, the short, like, housing buildings there, uh, in the, in the lower east side, if you want to see them, but the barriers are all gone on those anyway. And they have an astringent, uh, kind of acidic taste that I like because if you mash them and let them sit on the skins a while before you spin them off, they pull
+
+[14:53] up, uh, a little bit more tannin than, uh, like a blueberry, a little bit more musky, but not probably as tannic as cassis.
+
+[15:00] Oh, they're good. I like them. You've had them before, right, sis? Anyway. so mulberries. Any favorite spot to get some mulberries, any good techniques for picking them, they're so fragile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A technique is to get someone else to pick them for you or wear gloves, but don't, because that looks dumb. If you're walking around the city picking berries with gloves. What do you think about it? If you see a dude picking berries with gloves in the street, what do you say about it, guys? I don't know. What you feel? I mean, I don't know. We'd be like, what the hell is that guy doing? right? I don't know. Just get that. Well, it does stand the hell out of you. Also, I spotted a few peach trees and sour cherry trees. I can't have the sour cherries. I'm eager to pick them too. What the best way? I don't have a fruit picker, any way to make when it works. That's an interesting question. Probably for things like peaches. You could, you know, get like, they make fruit picking basket things, but then you'd have to fix it to the end of an extendable
+
+[15:48] poll. That I wouldn't mind looking like a lunatic around. Hey, what are you doing up there? Oh! I'm picking peaches. What's wrong with you? Uh, the mulberries, uh, a good place to pick them that's pleasant to go to is uh, uh, in the park that's off of 158th Street and Riverside Drive. You go over to the river on the west side and you walk up and there's a bunch of, they have a boat line. I was about to curse. They have a boatload of Juneberry stabberries there, but then they also have a bunch of mulberry trees up in that area, and there's a bunch just scattered around the city. There's some in the parks that are up Allen Street, or is that Christy? You know what I'm talking about? Christy. It's Christy Forsyth, right? And we found a good one near what restaurant we always used to go to where we found one where we used to eat with Maria. There was a really nice one. Oh, yeah. I can't remember. Anyway, my recommendation, like I said before, is to pick and I'm too stupid to do this, but you got to have a long view on this. So pick a couple of berries this year and then mark the tree, like take a picture and geotag it or whatever. Like, oh, this is the good one. And then you can go back and get it the next year because, uh, I mentioned this last week when I started talking about your question. that mulberry trees are extremely variable in fruit quality. Uh, so anyway, that's what that's what I would say. ice cream question. Jenny Bauer from Jenny Splendid Ice Creams uses a milk filtration technique. Uh, and then this is a paraphrasing of it. Start with raw, grass fed, grass pastured milk from the cows right at the dairy. Milk comes in and we separate it into a center in a centrifugion, into heavy cream and skim milk. As per usual, the cream goes into a tank. Uh, when I go to the dairy, that's the 1st place I go. I take a ladle insipid, foamy, like slightly whipped cream. Okay. The skim milk then goes through a nano-filtration system, which is, this is quoting, I think, Jenny
+
+[17:31] Bauer in food and wine. Food and wine did an article called Lessons from Jenny Brittenbauer, and this is a quota from that. And this is really cool where old technique makes modern. The filtration system runs the milk across a membrane, multiple times we remove about 60% of the water. Water's not good in ice cream because it makes it icy. Removing water also concentrates the proteins to give it more body and texture. We're working with 2 proteins, the caseine, and whey proteins, which gives great smoothness. So then we take the concentrated skim milk, containing proteins and
+
+[17:59] lactose and mix it back with the cream to give us a base of about 15% butter fat perfect for ice cream. It's still raw and not been cooked. So then we add sugar and batch pasteurize at 175 degrees. Ultra pasteurized milks are heated to 300 plus and they shoot them through a tiny pipe, which strips a lot of the flavor out. And, uh, anyway, batch pasteurization gives the milk a nice cooked custardy flavor, and bonds the water to the proteins,
+
+[18:20] butter fat and sugar. I don't know if I believe that. I don't know exactly what she means by it. Then we shoot it through homogenizer, while it's still hot. So the butterfat is melted and looser. We homogenize it to make the butter fat molecules. I think she means like, you know, the my cells, the same size as all the other ones. And if we didn't, all those big butterfat molecules would find each other and make butter. The homogenizer shoots it through, blah, blah, blah, blah, yakety, smackety. Yakety, yakety, yakety. Um, and then she she spins it and then they pack it all by hand 1000s a week. And she
+
+[18:49] says, there are machines for packing, but they require a much thinner ice cream, so it never freezes up the same way that
+
+[18:54] ours do. Okay, so now back to the question part of it. This is not the quote anymore. She recommends that at home, we should boil the milk for ice cream base for 4 minutes. The boiling is key. It evaporates excess water like our nanofiltration system. Like pasteurization, it bonds sugar and fat to the water, and it denatures the whey proteins to make them smooth. Then you add cream cheese to mimic the thickening of homogenization to bulk up the body. And then they, food and wine did an article where they tested it. Isn't it just easier to add? And then your question is, isn't it easier to add powdered milk to the base? What's in cream cheese, other than stabilizers, the powdered milk, doesn't it? Well, I mean, other than stabilizers, there's a boat ton of stabilizers and cream cheese. That why it's so smooth. If you've ever had non-stabilized cream cheese. It's really kind of greeny, which I actually like. The best uh, cream cheese that I've ever purchased is uh, bought at Russian Daughters, and it's completely non-stabilized cream cheese, so it only lasts a couple of days, and it's kind of grainy, but it has such
+
+[19:45] kind of an amazing technician. No offense to Philly. In fact, Booker, Stas, you appreciate this booker, hates the high quality cream
+
+[19:52] cheese, and he's like, I'd prefer Philadelphia brand cream cheese. And then so he makes me buy the most expensive salmons like in the world fundamentally at Russian Daughters and wants the, you know,
+
+[20:04] the, uh, the mass market cream cheese. That a nice way of saying it, right? Mass market. Hey, look, I eat Philly. Anyways. Isn't it easier to add powder milk to the base? Do you have any thoughts on the science behind what's going on here? Well, I mean, you know, what I typically do is
+
+[20:21] add, just add more cream to the milk to get the butterfat content up, and then, yes, I add powdered milk to the base. A lot of powdered milk doesn't taste very good, so I can see boiling down your milk to remove some of the
+
+[20:35] water, and then, but you're still adding less cream. Look, I would spend more time worrying about the quality of the cream that you use. Nine tenths of the cream that you buy in the supermarket is, um, you know, ultra pasturized because it's sitting around for a long time and they want it to last forever. So, like, if you're sourcing like a super nice cream that hasn't been completely whacked out of whack by the, uh, you know, by
+
+[20:57] the, by the homogenation by boiling it, I mean, I think it's a little interesting that she's into the raw thing. The other thing in a low temperature pasteurizing, but then you're boiling out your your milk to get, well, at least the skin portion of it to get, I mean, in other words,
+
+[21:10] and I don't know about this. I mean, but the thing is, I'm sure they test it, sure it's delicious, and the cream cheese is going to add some acidity to, which I don't know that you necessarily want. Like, when I'm doing it, I would add, I mean, remember also she's doing Philly style, so she's not adding any eggs to it. I almost always make egg style. When I make Philly style, I add stabilizers to it. Uh, like, I used to use flavor free guar. Uh, you could also use locust bean gum. Geland makes a super duper awesome stabilizer because it's like hyper creamy in small amounts, like a fluid gel. It's ridiculous. And then you can also light it on fire. Um, don't add Guar and Jelan because then it gets stretchy like selepton derma. So anyway, I add stabilizers. I just up my cream component, and if I want to bulk out the proteins more, I add powder, but it is true that some powders don't taste
+
+[21:58] good. Right? Is that a good answer? I've never had her ice cream, but all of the little doodads in the Yelp for, I think she's Ohio or something. All the little doodads are like awesome, best, awesome, best. don't know. We've got another color. Color, you were on the air. Hello, Dave. Um, so uh, my name is Anthony. I'm from DC. Um, I've been working on a fish sausage, uh, for the fish shop that I work for. Uh, we're looking to make a, basically a sausage with the texture and the snap of a hot dog, but emulsified, um, our 1st attempt, which is
+
+[22:36] a, uh, you know, traditional Mussolina was too soft. Yeah. So, we did a couple batches, um, and we're using the midst of, like, probably 50, 60% white fish, and then the red is
+
+[22:49] scallop and, uh, shrimp. Yep, um, puree and fruit processor. Uh, I've tried egg whites, uh, gelatin, um,
+
+[22:58] uh, milk powder and tapioca starch, like different variations of those, uh, tapioca starch, and I'm assuming the terrorist starch, anything else would be, it's very pasty and starchy
+
+[23:11] tasty. That was almost inedible. Um, and I wanted to get your thoughts on what you might use to give it a little bit more of
+
+[23:19] that uh, firmness, that kind of fight to it. All right, cool. You packing them into lamb casings. Um, right now, we've just been packing them. That's the plan. going to be land casings, but right now we've just been wrapping them plastic and poaching them off to try it out. You're obviously going to get more snap in the land casing, but you're not getting the texture you want out of it. You want more of the texture of a traditional, uh, emulsified sausage. And, you know, most seafood sausages have that very light kind of almost dumpling like texture to them. Stas, by the way. I't know if I mentioned this on error, whether this came up on error, did it? She hates seafood sausage. Can you believe it? Can you believe this lady? Anyways. So, uh, very simple thing for you. Now, here's the deal. You're going to be able to get anything in between where you are right now and
+
+[24:06] seremi, just by using meat glue. I mean, I wouldn't go all the way to serimi if I was you. But you know, you're going to be able to get anything in between. Now, meat blue is going to bind the proteins together. And I have myself
+
+[24:18] made like bound sausages. Uh, I think I've done it with, with seafood, but I've done, definitely done them before, where they're like ping pong balls. you can definitely go over. So you're never, ever going to want to go over one% of meat glue. Don't but don't even start near that high. And also, uh, the, how much the meat glue is going to make it into a ping pong ball is going to be dependent on how much salt is present and then how
+
+[24:47] much, uh, you know, how much food processing or grinding you get after you put the meat glue
+
+[24:52] in. And remember, you have to pump the sausages out
+
+[24:56] within, after you add the meat glue within about 5 to 10 minutes because it's going to start setting up. So I would start with somewhere like a quarter percent. And I would wait, I would take it to
+
+[25:07] taste it to get just where you want. And then I would, at the last minute, blitz in one quarter of one% of Activa RM, and then, which you can get at
+
+[25:17] modernestpantry.com. And then I would, you know, blend that in and then pipe it right away or just roll it in plastic for your
+
+[25:24] tests. And then, uh, you know, if you want to do it, you can, you can poach them off at 55 Celsius to do a quick set on them so that you don't have to wait forever in a
+
+[25:35] day, and then you can do your regular cookoff wherever you, you know, at whatever you
+
+[25:39] want, or you can let it sit in the fridge for 4 hours to overnight to, to set
+
+[25:43] up, and then you should be able to get a judge. Well, remember, though, if you're going to hold these things overnight. 70 to 80% of the texture will develop over that 4 hour period, but then it's
+
+[25:55] going to get a little springier overnight as it continues to bond if it's sitting in your fridge without getting touched. So our game plan is to pre-poach them. So we're using, um, we only sell, you know, fish that's been filleted for a couple of days, maybe. So we're using the straps, and the filets that we haven't sold, um, and they're still perfectly edible, but they don't look, you know, as fresh as
+
+[26:20] possible, so we're pre-proaching them, uh, so we can sell without, um, you know, without worrying about the customer taking them out the next day, and, you know,
+
+[26:31] just turned after a day or 2 rather than, you know, 4 days. Once you poach it, the enzyme's going to get deactivated, it's not going to get any stiffer. So if you're gonna, if you know you're going to poach them off, then I recommend, uh, I recommend like, like doing a, uh, an initial poach off. Like if you're going to do lamb casing size, an initial poach off at like 55 Celsius for like, for like 10 minutes,
+
+[26:58] and, you know, 10, 15 minutes, that should set it, and then you can put them in whatever temperature you want to cook them to, cook them, you know, whatever you're going to do
+
+[27:09] to, you know, do the bacteria, kill step, and then take them out and you're ready to rock and roll. And then the good thing about that is you can run through a couple of cycles with the Miklu to figure out how much you want to add. Gotcha. And I could probably also time it so that I get just the right amount of set on the meat glue to
+
+[27:27] texture that we want, correct? Wait, say that last part of that sentence again, the right amount of sentiment. Just time out when we poach them or when we do the 55 Celsius water
+
+[27:37] bath, to the tester that we want. So whether it's like 2 hours or 3 or 4 hours, we can almost find 2 minutes or
+
+[27:45] extra, correct? Yeah, yes, but the 55 sets it. Like, the enzyme is still working. So you don't have to wait even, like, you can wait like 15 minutes or 10 and set it at a 55 degree bath.
+
+[27:58] That's how Wiley used to make his shrimp noodles. Or I guess still does make it shrimp noodles. Uh, I mean, you could go a little lower, like 50, 52, 53. If you're going to cook it right away, you know, you could even do 50 and that'll set it right away, but I usually do 55 because it's a
+
+[28:14] nice safe number. Um, you know, you're not growing any bacteria in the bath itself. So I usually do 55. But then you don't you don't have to wait at all. So then is you make them, you stuff them, you poach them off, and then, you know,
+
+[28:26] you're good. And then I would just base the amount of Meekloo based on that. Gotcha. And I was, one other thought I had on it was that the protein, you know, the
+
+[28:37] protein, uh, percentage in fish is a lot lower than meat, words, um,
+
+[28:41] adding uh, a protein powder, like uh, soy protein, uh, isolated. Would that help maybe give a firmer texture as well or is that just going to be a waste of time? With the Miklu, I wouldn't. It already has casing in it, which is helper. And if you if you have customers that don't want the casing, you can get one without casing. And it, fish. Remember how soluble like fish, uh, Think of how sticky fish
+
+[29:08] gets. Because like a lot of the proteins are actually soluble. So once you add meat glue to it, sucker like, that's what, like the fact that the protein comes out is why we do a brine step before you're going to do low
+
+[29:21] temp. Otherwise you get that white album and bloom on the outside, which looks nasty. So I don't think you're going to have a problem with, uh, I don't think you're going to have a problem with the with the Miklu on its
+
+[29:32] own rather than having to add like a separate thing because that's just another thing. And then, you know, the meat glue is in such small percentage and that you, I don't even know. I mean, technically, I don't know what you're labeling, but I don't know. I think it's better than having to add like another thing, you know? Exactly. And I should add the meat glue and powder or should I make the paste with it and then add it to the mix. I would add it to the mix in powder form, unless you're having trouble, like unless it's such a big batch that you're worried it's not going to get in, in which case. But remember, when you're doing that, you're adding water. So as long as you're okay with that. you could do it that way. But also every just, the key thing, everything quick. Yes, okay. All righty? Thank you. Let us know how it works. Good luck with that. No problem. All right. quick break. All right. right back.
+
+[30:24] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano Hans, or aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoke to achieve a deep mahogany color.
+
+[30:37] The Edwards name is well known for its world class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor
+
+[30:45] profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a
+
+[30:54] delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Nice. We back? Sam wrote in about, uh, I wonder whether it's the same Sam. Interesting. I have another quick question for Dave, the old school poly-science blue and white circulator has 2 pump speeds, slow and fast. Does heating the water up in the fast pump speed, help the circulator heat up faster, Sam? Uh, no, here's the deal. The old circulators had a low and a high pump speed for this reason and this reason only. A lot of laboratory processes take place very close to ambient temperature. And on the high pump speed, you add a lot of friction to the
+
+[31:43] system, and so you can heat the water just because the pump speed is higher. This is according to Philip Preston. This is not, I don't want to, someone calling me back and saying, there's not enough friction. listen, I don't want to hear about it. Like, this is like from the mouth of the designer of the piece of equipment. Uh, and so the low pump speed is there just so that you're not dumping a lot of extra energy in in case you're doing ambient or
+
+[32:04] subambient cooling, like with an ice bath or something like this, right? Uh, so, uh, in a cooking uh, in a cooking scenario, you should always use high, always. unless you have something that's extremely fragile, that's getting knocked around, like, for instance, let's say you put eggs in the circulator and you didn't take the care to make sure that they're not rattling around, like, I'm not going to name names, but I saw a
+
+[32:24] four, like, a 3 Michelin star chef have, uh, in a demo. I think I told us before, but eggs is rattling around the freaking circulator bin. I was like, 0 my god, why do you hate eggs so much? Why are you doing a demo if you hate eggs? So in that case, maybe you can put it on low? But always keep it on high. Always keep it on high. Um, and I don't know because I don't know which sand you are, but there are another sand that rode in saying on food storage, can you ask Dave this question on the radio show, do you know any book or resource dedicated to optimal food storage?
+
+[32:52] For example, how best to store celery? Thanks, Sam. Uh, I don't, uh, except for Harold. I didn't have a chance to go peruse my copy, but Harold McGee's 3rd, well,
+
+[33:03] 4th, if you count the, if you count the 2nd edition of On Food and Cooking as a different book, which I think you
+
+[33:08] should. Like so many chapters are rewritten, so we'll call it his 4th book. Uh, the keys to good cooking. In that, he has a lot of tips for optimum storage of things. So, and that's like one of the, because that book, see, like what a lot of people don't get about, that book is meant to be like go to kitchen reference on stuff like
+
+[33:26] stores. So I need to go reread it, but I think that's got a lot of stuff like that and I would welcome anyone tweeting on in books they have on that on that subject. Uh, you know, because mostly I read kind of technical crap on this on this sort of thing. Uh, and Eric Michael Morris from Little Rock wrote in, uh, this question on sugar-free gelato. Uh, and uh, what I'm going to have to do is punt this to next week because I need some more information from you,
+
+[33:50] uh, Eric. Sorry, if this has been addressed before. I love the show, but haven't listened to them all, like, if you have problems. I'm the GM of a wood oven, southern Italian style pizza and salad place in Little Rock, Arkansas. We make our own gelato fresh daily. I was curious about making a sugar-free gelato slash sorbetto. What do you think of that word says? You like that word? Because you like anything Italian? Or Swiss? Except for the people. You don't like, I thought you love the people. I don't like the people. Where in Switzerland or Italy? You don't like northern Italians or southern Italians? I hate all Italians You heard it here first. What the hell? She likes the language, likes the culture, food, food. Landscape. Landscape. But the people, ah. Ah, wipe them off. Uh, she's just like, people, I just want you, like, I work with a ball of hate. Just a straight up ball of hate. I want to do, um, Jack, can you do like a ball of confusion
+
+[34:51] cover, like somehow referencing like ball of ball of hatred for a star or something? Yeah. I was curious about making a sugar-free gelato slash sorbeto. The owner was trying to explain inverted sugars and crap to me that is over my head. Any advice on making outstander sugar-free, gelato, thanks, Eric Michael Morris. Okay, here's here's the questions that I have for you, Eric. So, The question straight up off the bat is why do you want it to be sugar-free? In other words, are you trying to make it savory, or is it for a diabetic application, or is it just that you want to have no added sugar, but you're okay with the sugar in fruits, right? Because sugar is a, you know, the sugar is there as
+
+[35:32] a uh, as a texture agent, right? So, you can, and, you know, invert, so sugar, sucrose is a disaccharide. joined together, and it tends to crystallize. And of other things, an invert sugar tends to make things, it has a certain amount of freezing point depression to it, right? And if you were to break that same molecule sucrose into its 2 constituent parts, which
+
+[35:57] are glucose and fructose, all of a sudden it depresses the freezing point even more. So adding a certain amount like decreases the freezing point, more, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not the, that's not the, the, the point here. The point is, is that why do you want to do what you're doing? If you want it to taste the same as an ice cream or a gelato, unless you're going to add artificial sweeteners to it. Don't add Stevia. I hate Stevie Stas. Come on with me. You hate Stevia? Jack, you hate Stevia? Yeah, obviously. Yeah, I hate Stevia. I have no I have no problem with people who like it except for what that means is that you like something that tastes bad. I mean, it's possible that some people can't taste that awful poisonous metallic bitter taste at the end of Stevia. It's possible, but it's just wretched. Anyways. So the question is, do you want to add an artificial sweetener, in which case you need to bulk it up with a
+
+[36:43] sweetener, that is, if you're looking for calories. It's non-caloric and has the same sort of freezing point depression and texturizing
+
+[36:53] properties. Uh, in which case, I'd have to look up what I think the best kind of, uh, you know, but the other thing is when you move to high bulk, uh, uh, sugars like that, like isomalt, then you increase the
+
+[37:03] poopensity of the ice cream because you're not digesting the stuff. Anything you don't digest increases the potential of what you're working on, which is why everyone worries about isomalt, even though you really don't eat that much isomalt. You what I'm talking about, is that? Yep. Anywoo. Uh, if you're just looking to use like natural fruit juice, then get yourself a refractometer and boil your, you know, boil your fruit juice down until it's basically sugar and then
+
+[37:26] uh, add it back to it and measure the measure, you know, measure their fractometer, what your sugar level is, um, have
+
+[37:33] I hit any other ones? Anyway, write me back and tell me like exactly what you want this sucker to taste like versus what you're tasting like now and I can get you a better answer as to what you're doing. But the sugar is doing 3 things. It's providing a taste, which you may or may not want. Um, It's uh, depressing the freezing point, which you definitely want. Otherwise, it's hard like a rock, and even aside from that as texturizing properties to it. 3 things. Uh, and I'm sure many, many others. Four minute warning. Okay, um, okay. So is there anyone I promised I'd get to let me get back to the top of this? I going to get the bone marrow next week because I'm going to ask Nils about that because he's my Chris May writes in. I think you've touched on this topic before, but I'm interested in using my soon to arrive. Kickstarted, a nova water circulator to temper a ginger a decoctions. What do you think about decoction as a wound? Yeah. In a pot. I make ginger beer often and typically make my primary decoction by boiling blended ginger for the last 8 minutes of a 15 minute boil. Recently, I started supplementing cold pressed ginger juice and water in my batches after the initial boil. However, raw cold pressed ginger juice is way too astringent and aggressive. In my initial experiments, I found that even microwaving the ginger juice to as low as 120 Fahrenheit softens the jagged edges of the raw
+
+[38:46] ginger and makes it pop. But I would like precision control, the ginger decoction temperature for future recipes, keeping it as raw slash strong as possible. My question is this, is a water circulator, uh, like the you know of an acceptable preceding tool to heat the 2 to 4 cups of my ginger decoction? My primary concerns are cleaning the circulator adequately, and harming the circulator somehow. Here's what you do. Put it in a ziploc bag and then put the ziploc bag in the water. Bang, done, right? Boom, boom. Or yeah, just do that. And then if you want it to flash off, you can leave the ziploc bag open and clip it to the sides of your circulator. I've done that a 1000000 times. Boom, done. Hooked you up on that. Second question, can you describe the effects of heat on an aromatic such as ginger? I assume it's not denaturing the ginger, since there's no protein, there are proteins, but there are no proteins that are on
+
+[39:26] a retangling, but I'd love to get some kind of theoretical insight into the transformation from raw ginger to the warm, transcendent
+
+[39:31] melange, just a bit of heat provides. Many thanks and keep it up. Chris May. Okay. So, um, Ginger has a bunch of stuff going on. They're volatile aromatics. These things dissipate on heating even low heating, such that dried ginger, which is rarely heated above 40 degrees Celsius, often loses a huge percentage of its volatiles over time. So what you're doing when you do that is you're losing your citrus notes and things like this. Then the non-volatile side, which we'll call the pungent side, primarily in the raw ginger, you have these things called ginger rolls. And the ginger rolls are changed, even with mild heat over prolonged times, or with higher heats for longer times, into these things called
+
+[40:09] shogels and zinjerones. And those are less pungent. So like as you change, you change the flavor and the pungency. And there are some kinetics, you can look online. I've just downloaded a book called Spice Chemistry, and I'm going to read it a little bit more. But even low temperatures like you're describing, will, one, drive off the volatiles and radically change what's going on, and B, will, uh, wieldy nature, if you
+
+[40:33] hold, not denature, but will, will, uh, hydrolyze uh, ginger roll to its other components. Now, if you're at like ADC, like, you know, by the time you've gone for like 5 hours at ADC, you've already, you know, hydrolyzed like half of the ginger
+
+[40:46] all that's present. So, and also a lot depends on what variety you're starting with. You started with the Jamaican ginger, African ginger, Asian ginger, how old was it when it was picked, et cetera, et cetera, because the longer it grows underground, the more fibrous it gets, and kind of the harsher it
+
+[41:00] gets. anyway. Uh, so that was, uh, that was that. I'm about to get kicked off. So I'll just say that the other questions, I will answer next week. I had some questions on the Twitter about putting oysters. Remember the old oyster trick I used to do? Remind me to talk about that next week. And we'll come back next week with the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[41:49] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills.
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+[0:15] It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else, Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
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+[0:34] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey Farms.com. This is Mitchell Davis, host of Taste Matters. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:58] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking your shoes coming to you live, actually at 12 this time. 12 o'clock. I was here at 12 On Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling your questions live too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Join as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How are you? Good. Yeah? Yeah. Jack? I'm doing great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna, uh, well, it's planned. We gonna have a special guest caller. After the break. Nils Norris, formerly of the French Culinary Institute, now hitting up Marcus
+
+[1:38] Samuelson's Restaurant Group. And we'll ask him how many restaurants he's opened this week because like whenever you're like, all I'm, you know, I actually, well, we used to just do fake Austrian, so I can't really imitate the actual Nils accent, so I won't even try.
+
+[1:51] But anyhoo, he's like, every time you call him, he's like, yeah, I'm headed off to somewhere crazy to open like 13 restaurants.
+
+[1:58] I'll be back in like a month, right? I think that he and you were guests together the 1st time you came on heritage on Patrick's
+
+[2:08] show like years and years ago. That is entirely possible. Yeah. That is, that is. I mean, I'm not going to say, plus or minus whether that's the case, but he's going to come on, actually, to talk to us about bone marrow to answer Justin's pressing questions on bone
+
+[2:21] marrow, because you know what? I used to like, yeah, I'll talk about it a little bit now. You know, I've cooked plenty of bone marrow in my life, but it's always just been kind of homestyle in
+
+[2:30] Asabuco. You know, you like Osbuko, right? Finally something we like together. Jesus. You know, Asabuko when I was a kid was cheap. It wasn't expensive back in the day. So anyways, I used to cook it anyway, and then I'd take out the bone marrow and put it on my risotto. But, you know, that's about the extent. I've never cooked it restaurant style. So, you know, for service. Anyway, so no is going to come on because the man is cooked more bone marrow than I care to eat. Okay. So, let's answer some other questions. By the way, Dave, uh, Climb and had a question a long time ago, he is at, I am
+
+[3:05] fractal on the, uh, on the Twitter, and he says, uh, Deer at cooking issues, reminding, reminding you to talk about infusing clams slash oysters.
+
+[3:15] And then he says sous vide tricks, but I don't really know any sous vide flavor tricks. I know sous vide tricks for oyster. You know any sous vide tricks for rasers? No. I mean, I'm sure that like, uh, I believe the
+
+[3:25] Rocas have like a razor clam recipe, I think. I'm sure, but although you know what? Like, you know who's a really good low temperature recipe is the modernist cuisine recipe for
+
+[3:34] gooey duck. For those of you that have never had the gooey duck before. I mean, for those of you that don't know what Gooey Duck looks like. I feel like Stas will hate this. I mean, do you like Eli Duck Stas? I don't think I've ever I've had it at Mirbold's thing. It's spelled Geoduck for those either. So who the hell knows why it's pronounced gooey duck. And what's his name? Yule Gibbons in stalking the blue eyed scallop, which is classic of foraging, by the way. Uh, he, you know, he does stalk in the wild asparagus, stalk in a blue white scallop, a couple other books. Anyway, like he talks about going to get it like at the super low, low tide, like running out on the, on the Pacific coast and get, I don't know whether it's true or false, but he, you know, he has an article on it. Anywho, it is, um... Let's just say it's suggestive as
+
+[4:20] a as an animal. Am I right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, imagine you took, uh, like, a steamer's shells, inflated them huge,
+
+[4:31] and then spread them open, and then, and then went on the set of a porn movie with
+
+[4:36] it and used it. Used it as a, some sort of, anyway, it's, it's horrific
+
+[4:43] site and even more so when you prepare it because you have to peel the outer skin off, which is possibly the most suggestive thing I've ever done in a
+
+[4:51] kitchen. Like, hands down, you know, taking the skin off of a gooey duck outside is like banana
+
+[4:58] rams, but so then it's very tough that, you know, that siphon, we'll call it, is very tough. And so, you know, one of the things you can do is just slice it really, really thin on a bias and
+
+[5:10] sauce it and then eat it like that, it's got kind of a nice crunch to it. Uh, or, or, but Nathan and uh, Chris and, uh, you know, uh, Maxine, these guys in the modernist cuisine. I don't really know whose recipe it was. They put it in a CVAP and cooked it very quickly, very low, and it was the most tender gooey duck I've ever had in my life. It's delicious. You had it. You liked it, right? I've only had it like Crudo, I think. Yeah, Crudo, where it's kind of crunchy. It's nice. But anyways. So onto flavor infusion. So here's a... Wait, really quick. I just have to add this The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. There's school mascots, the Gooey Duck. You're lying to me. I'm not lying to you I'll show you. I'll show you over the break. Who the hell would do that? They call it Speedy the Gooey Duck. Well, I'm sorry that he's so speedy. Yeah, and say, yeah, speedy. That's what she said. Anyway, what college? Uh, it's it's a Evergreen State College. And they couldn't have chosen like something out of their like amazing temperate rainforest up there. They had to choose the gooey duck. There's a Gooey Duck fight song. I'm not kidding. There's a whole, yeah. How does the mascot look? Like a gooey duck. Well, what direction is the siphon pointed? Oh Jesus. God. Like, what, what kind of asexual dean and or president of the university allowed this to
+
+[6:30] happen, either that or what kind of just nutjob? If that's what the kids want, That's what the kids want. Gooey duck it is. You'll have to live with it, kids. I don't. I don't go to the football games. You know what I mean? Is that's got to be how it happened. Oh man, this can't be real. The fight song lyrics. I don't even know if I can... Alright, Jackie, give me some of your musician skills. Give me the fight song. sing it, but I'll say I can't even do... Do it. It's got to be family oriented. It's a college fight song. Go gooey ducks go through the mud in the sand. Let's go. Siphon high, squirt it out, swivel all about, let it all hang out. This is real. Oh, my Washington State. Oh my god. Oh my god. Sorry. That is horrific. It's bad. It's terrible. Oh my god. You you have defiled Washington. What is it? Washington? What is it? Washington State. Washington State. Evergreen State College. Evergreen State College. You have defiled a delicious animal with your innuendo. Anyways, so on to flavoring oysters. Actually, the, by the way, I'm just going to say this up front. This is news to Nastasia as well as myself because I just thought of it just now. Flavoring oysters using flavored seawater analogs was the very, very 1st post on
+
+[7:49] Cooking Issues.com. Uh, it was, uh, in fact, I came up with that trick, and then I'm like, we should have a blog to write this stuff down. So it's the very, very 1st post on the cooking issues. And you know what I realize, Stas, just now, and I'll talk about a 2nd thing, but it's like, um, I'm never going to have the time, again, in my life to write cooking issue style posts.
+
+[8:12] It's just not gonna happen. How many times have I said I want to try and do it? And I can't because all those posts are like 2 and 3000 words, right? And more sometimes 4 or 5000. And they're all like, you know, we had to do extensive research. Really, I was only capable of doing that when my job was to come up with that kind of stuff at the French
+
+[8:31] culinary institute. So, you know, nowadays, I don't really have the time to um, to devote to just writing that length of, even if I
+
+[8:41] were to come up with the idea, writing that length of dialogue on stuff. So I shouldn't pretend that I am. We should just close cooking issues like archive it, never pretend that it's going to go live again. It was what it was. And, you know, we have the content. It's there, the content will stay up. And then if ever, you know, I decide to have some sort of online presence other than the radio show and uh, and Twitter, then we'll do some, some new concept, some new, new
+
+[9:07] format because we won't be able to do the cooking issues and rather than change what that was, just kind of leave it as a document. What do you think? So, all right. RIP cooking issues blog. Well, Paul can, Paul can continue it. But I think like Paul Adams, by the way, who's they are a good friend who's the, I guess he's the head,
+
+[9:30] like, chief online editor, I don't know what his title is at popular science. He runs, he runs their web presence. fundamentally. And he's a really good guy. Maybe we'll do something someday, you know, with Paul, because he's a good guy. But I think we should change the format. You know? Something less, something more spontaneous, less, less. We tried that. didn't work. No, I mean, not as cooking issues. Just like, you know, just like a random thoughts thing that anyone that's working with us can put stuff up or something like this. Something I don't need to devote. I mean, whatever. Anyway, I think we should just have it be what it was and that's it. You know what I mean? Cooking issues lives on in the radio show, Jack. you know that? Yeah exactly. Okay, so back to oysters. It was the very 1st post on, oh, that used to be my iPad. It was the very 1st post on cooking issues. And the concept was this. I read somewhere that oysters don't, I was reading about the physiology of
+
+[10:22] oysters, because that's the kind of crap I do. And, you know, it came to my attention that oysters won't feed in a
+
+[10:29] refrigerator. It's just too cold. You need to be in a kind of a mid-range temperature for it to feed, but you also don't want it to feed over. I forget what the number is. I going to make it up, let's, somewhere in the 60s, 50s, 60s, because then you start having problems of growing vibriotox in it, right? So it's this middle line thing. And then I realized, well, look, look. If I can get oysters to feed at a temperature that's just above refrigeration temperature, I can maintain that temperature with either a
+
+[10:55] circular standing bath. It turns out you don't need a circulator, but you can maintain it, right? And I was like, well, what do they feed on? They feed on seawater. So I can get aquarium salt because at the time I had a saltwater aquarium, and I had a bunch of aquarium salt, and you could just mix up, you could take whatever you want, and the thing we settled on was carrots and cardamom, like carrot
+
+[11:15] juice and cardamom. And I, you have to put it through a very fine filter because if you clog, if you clog an oysters,
+
+[11:22] gills with particles. And it's a small particle size. I forget exactly what it is, but it's somewhere in the range of 10 microns, 10, 15 microns, something like
+
+[11:30] this. And a Vitaprep's not going to get anything below about 20 microns in that range.
+
+[11:35] I don't know what a champion sieves juicer plate is at, but anyway, I have a rotor state or homogenizer. So I use that to get the particle size down really low. You could probably just do a decent filter on it and get it through, then added aquarium salt to get it up to the base salinity that I wanted, and then you place the oysters in it, and you let them
+
+[11:52] feed for a couple of hours, and then you ice them down again. You don't want to, uh, keep them in the bath for too long because even it's possible, and I spoke to an oyster physiologist about
+
+[12:04] this. It's possible for the oyster to grow bacteria that are not harmful to it. So the oyster will still appear healthy, but could be harmful to you. For instance, you know, vibrio, but that's not going to grow in the conditions that
+
+[12:15] we have here. Anyways. So, uh, so we chose that and we did it also with clams. We did, what do we do, Stas, bacon, onion or something like that. We did like a bacon onion and clams. And once you practice, you practice a bunch. You can get to the point where like 75% of your oysters are eating the stuff.
+
+[12:32] And you want to spread them out in a layer and you don't want to disturb them because if you disturb them, they shut up
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+[12:36] like a clamor an oyster does. you know, that's what they're, that's what they do. And then what you do is you wash them off, right? And then you pack them on ice. And then when you shuck them, they're bright orange on the inside, which is awesome. And a couple other people have tried this. I don't know if anyone's ever done it for service in a restaurant, but it was like kind of my
+
+[12:52] 1st trick, not my 1st trick, cooking trick, obviously, but the 1st one we wrote up on the blog. So you can go look at it on the cooking issues, which is now archived. Yeah? So anything good happening this week, Stas? Um, are we doing anything huge? No. I feel like we did a bunch of stuff last week. Was I away last week? Did I go somewhere last week? No, we were here. We did some event. I know we did some event. I can't remember though. We, uh, we got some. I don't want to say this, but I feel like I have to where people are going to start getting pretzels. I think it was all about that. All seers all the time. Oh, no, because last week is the week I got back from Tales, right? I got back on this Sunday or this Saturday. And then last week, I feel like we had a big event. We always have like, it's not like whatever. We can't have a week without having a date. Yeah, he came back from tales. Yeah. Anyway, my point is, is that we got word from our factory that they will complete the
+
+[13:51] production. Now, I'm not guaranteeing this, this is what they say. complete production on. The 15th of August. of August, and we're shipping by air. So it's going to get here super fast. You had your book party last week. Oh, yes. Oh, that's true. My book, by the way, I've seen the color stuff. printed in China, and I should have advanced color copies in in like a month. It arrives in October and then sells in November. Should be fun, right? Well, not really. Nothing's fun. exciting. It's exciting. I'll give you exciting. I hear croissant being eaten. Jack is like, now you know what it's like, Styles, to have you see there. Guilty as croissanted. Like, so, Stas, what are your thoughts on croissant? I like chocolate filled croissants. That's it. You don't like a regular croissant? What? I don't know. What do you have against flaky? I like biscuits and all that. It's just... It's what? You might actually be the 1st person I've ever met that doesn't like a regular croissant. Chocolate filled. and PS. PS, nothing like a biscuit. If your croissant, if your croissant is like a biscuit. No, just like the white, flaky thing, you know? So how do you work with me if you don't like white flaky things? Boom. Burn. Burn. Okay.
+
+[15:13] So, we got some questions in from Sam, whose questions we ask answer some of last week. Can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed vegetables? What kind of sautéed vegetables do you like? Most. Most? Most? I was about to say. First tip, don't try to saute zucchini. Boom! Because that stuff sucks. If you want to, like, the best way to cook zucchini is to not cook it at all. Yeah, the yeah, that's that's my favorite cooking technique for zucchini. zucchini? I think if you hollow it out, keep it hollow it out and stuff it with ground beef, yeah. That's good. And then you roast it. Yeah. You don't sauté that sucker. You roast it. That sounds good. All right. Another way you can do it is if you, like, like, dehydrate that thing so that the water's out of it, like, cut it thin, par dehydrate that sucker. But then if you soak, if you saute it in too much oil, suck, it's going to absorb oil like a spizz nunge, and then it's going to suck. You know what I mean? So you have to like, uh, yeah, crush it. You know what? I'll talk sautéed because I know Nils is going to go crazy on sautéed vegetables. I'll save sautéed vegetables when we're talking to nils about the bone marrow because that'll be fun to engage him on some sautéed vegetable stuff. Also, people have different things like another one of the cooking issues posts like sauteing mushrooms, right? Everyone, like the old sort of, you know, I forget who it was, whether it was Robuchon or one of those guys, Gagnier, one of those dudes, one of those fancy, famous French dudes, was like, the ultimate would be to sauté a single mushroom at the time. Right? Because everyone's like, everyone was like, you know, look, if you saute the mushrooms, they're going to sweat and they're not going to get a nice crust. Bull crap. That's crap. What you want to do is you want to swamp those mushrooms when you're cooking
+
+[16:57] them so that they get rid of their water and they're boiling the water out, getting rid of the
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+[17:01] water and not absorbing oil. If you saute mushrooms wide open in a pan, they get rid of the water, sure, but then they're still relatively porous from the water expelling when they start drying out and they soak up a lot more oil.
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+[17:15] Not that soaking up oil is bad, but most people don't want like a greasy, a greasy mushroom sponge. Do you want a greasy mushroom sponge? No, you don't. So, uh, what you do, you know, there is you sauté them in a huge, you know, huge amounts, they boil off all the water, and then after they start getting down to the bottom, then they can really color up without getting rid of any water at
+
+[17:34] all and without absorbing that much oil because they've already densified, which is another trick.
+
+[17:38] Vegetables that are porous, that you don't want to absorb too much oil, right? You want to get them fairly pre-densified before you do your saute on them because otherwise, they're going to absorb oil as
+
+[17:49] you, as you saute them. But we'll talk to we'll talk more with nose as he comes in. Your 2nd question, though, is interesting because it's about something that Stas
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+[17:58] hates and then something that both Stas and I hate, and I hope all of you hate as well. Are beets not the tilapia of the vegetable world? Uh, what am I doing wrong or what's a good cooking method for for beats? And Stas, what are your thoughts on the beats? I don't like them. you know that. I do. Dave does not really like that. That's the only time I haven't seen you finish an entire. I'm not going to call out whose beats they were. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because that's not what's important here. I did have a I did have a say the way that they were served, though. It was like, pull it out of the ground. Right? Yeah. Wash it off. Yeah. oven for like 15 minutes. You know what I mean? And then like, and then like, quarters. Not a small beat. where they beats the size of like a supermarket radish? No. No. It was like a large, one of those large plastic baseballs. Like a wiffle ball. It was like in quarter wiffle balls. Quarter whiffle balls. No salt. No salt. No salt. And, uh, let me just say, there was not good. I've never seen you not finish it. I was like, man, well, here's the weird thing, because beats for me are like, beats for me. Like, I can deal with a crunchy beat and now Dante beat, but like soft on the outside and hard on the inside with that dirt flavor, which is what we're about to talk about, right?
+
+[19:25] So, the problem with beats have several problems. But the main problem is that dirt, that dirt, earth, dirt, earth flavor. Actually, I like beets. I like pickled beets. Oh, yeah. And I like a fully roasted beet. And, uh, I like, uh, like apples soaked in beet juice. You know, those red old steakhouse apples. Jack, you know, I'm talking about the old? yeah, good, right? Anyways, I like all that stuff. Um, prefer, you know, all the pastry chefs prefer cane sugar. Did you know that? They say that the beet sugar, whatever, however they produce it. I don't know whether it's true or false, but they say that it's not as good for candy making. Could be horse crap. Probably is. Anyway, but that's not what I'm talking about. So, uh, the thing in beats that is probably off-putting to you other than the fact that it stains your hands if you're using the red ones.
+
+[20:16] It's horrible stain in your hands, right? Yeah. Not as bad as turmeric. Which is, I made that last week at the house and I stained some stuff in my, you know, Jane was like, my wife was like, you weren't kidding. You stained our, you stained the cutting board. I was like, yes, I did. I was like, and whatever. And I did it at, did I talk about that already? I did a turmeric drink at the Montaleone, at the Tales of the Cocktail because all that room at the Montaleone was a rental. Do we talk about me almost getting arrested at Montaleone? No. Well, if we have time, we'll talk about me almost getting arrested at the Mona Leone. Okay, anyway, the chemical in-beats is J Osmin. It's the same chemical, which is apt why you say it, that grows in tilapia, or that's present in
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+[20:58] tilapia that makes it taste muddy and some catfish. However, in uh, when it comes in fish, it's the product of uh, bacteria that the, uh, it's a bacterial byproduct that they, that they eat produced by, uh, well, by bacteria, beets, it was not known until very recently whether or not beets produce their own Giasmin, or whether or not, uh, or is it
+
+[21:20] Giasmin or Giasmin? Who cares? You guys know I can't pronounce anything. I wasn't known until recently whether beats produce it on their own, or whether there's bacteria that grow around beats, say it's causing it to have that flavor, but Lou,
+
+[21:31] at all, in 2003, in the paper, biosynthetic origin of Jasmin and Red Beats, proved that
+
+[21:37] it is produced indogenously, meaning that the beats actually produce their own jasmin. And here is the 1st clue for you on how to make beats not suck so dang hard. The Giasmin concentration is 6 times higher in the peel than in the pulp.
+
+[21:53] So when you get rid of the skins, whether you well, if you're roasting, you're probably going to do it afterwards, right? But when you're getting rid of the skins, get rid of the skins. Don't just like take a little bit of layer off the outside, get rid of enough skin to get rid of most of the jasmine. Here's another thing. Do you think there's a reason why beets are often served in acidic sauces or in
+
+[22:13] acidic pickles or things like that? You ever think about that, Stas? The reason is, is because J Osman breaks down in the presence of acidity, which is why you add it to tilapia.
+
+[22:25] Well, it's just to add some flavor to that muddy piece of crap trash. But anyway, so Jasmin, if it's heated in acidity will break down. So acidity is going to help if you want to do like a post-finish with like a sauté in a in an acid kind of environment that should help. And also the acidity probably helps cover up the smell of that stanky earth thing. But the best beat I've ever had was made by
+
+[22:50] a friend of mine, Mike Sharon, who is a chef out in Chicago. And I don't know whether it was originally his idea or an ideas and food idea or whatever, but he
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+[22:58] par dehydrated the beats, then sauce them, and then roasted them. And it had a kind of a chewy meaty texture. And that was the best damn beat I've ever had in my life. That's the 1st time in my life. I like beats, fine, you know, when they're prepared properly, not like quarter
+
+[23:14] whiffle balls, you know, like flash, flash cooked quarter whiffle balls. But like, this was the 1st time where someone served me like a beat salad and I was like, holy crap, I could eat as much of this
+
+[23:26] beet salad as they have in the house. Still waiting for that moment for me. Yeah, but you know, like, like, you know, you have to have eaten with me, but like, I get in these modes
+
+[23:33] where, like, I go ape, ape listic on things, like, you know, I've been known to eat, like, I don't know,
+
+[23:40] like 20 grapefruit. You know what I mean? It's like if I'm like, man, this grapefruit is delicious. Like, I can just keep eating it. And I felt that way about this beef salad. anyway. And one more quick question he has. We're going to go to the... We have caller? Yes. All right, caller, you were on the air. Hello, Dave. are you? Doing well. How you doing? Doing all right. This is Steve from Indiana, and Indianapolis. And I had a few quick questions for you about technology. Uh, one being the Vacmaster VP 112, uh, do you think it's worthwhile to, to purchase that if I'm not going to be doing retexturizations and
+
+[24:15] things? I just want something that I can vacuum, uh, liquids with the meat or whatever in in sous vide cook at. How much does it cost? It was 509. I mean, it's a drive pump. Yeah. It just seems to me to be an in-between cost. You know what I mean? Like, I've never used it. Someday I'll get a hold of one and I'll use it. Herve that I, you know, who I used to work with at the French Culinary Institute. They sent the FCI one or the ICC, whatever they're called now. And, um, they sent him one and he seems to like it. I've never used it. I mean, by all accounts, it's better than the food saver, but it's just in that, for me, in that
+
+[24:52] uncomfortable in between price zone. You know what I'm saying? Like. Yeah, but isn't it comfortable price on, like, 2500 for, like, a decent uh, like something that can actually pull 99% plus vacuum? Nah, closer to 15. I think if you get the if you get the right deal. I haven't shopped one in a long time, but you can get one, I think, with a decent pump for closer to
+
+[25:11] 15. So in other words, it's like 99 bucks, 500 bucks or 1500 bucks. Like, those are your choices. And like, so for me, but maybe it's closer to two. I don't know. I have to look at, you know, it depends on what kind of deal you can get. And, you know, Philip Preston has a new one out, uh, new as of last year, but I still haven't tested it yet, um, that is not the mini pack that he also sells. I have a mini pack and I like it, the small mini pack. Um, but, you know, Philip Preston, uh, he released a, uh, I think a sub $1000 unit or one that's right around a 1000 bucks, but
+
+[25:46] I have never used it. I don't know. The question is, why do you want it? If it's just for cooking, right, most things can be done in zips. If it's for preservation, then sure, fine. They're, you know, they're going to be fine. Like, why is it you specifically want a vacuum? Well, okay. So, um, I got uh, one of the Sandsayer uh, emersion circulators. I used to work at a kitchen shop. Uh, and so I got a, I, I pretty much abused my discount there and got a bunch of kitchen gadgets.
+
+[26:16] Um, and now I'm going into medical school. So I really want something that I can have in the fridge. Uh just ready to go and drop into a bath. Additionally, um, my brother and my dad had some of the food that I had cooked, like I did
+
+[26:31] 48, or 48, 72 hour short ribs, spare ribs that I, you know, then grilled and things like that, and they were just fascinated by how convenient it was.
+
+[26:39] But when I went over to my dad's house, I got him one, uh, Sanser, he was, uh, cooking, uh, like each steak in like a cup and a half of oil. And so I really want to, like, I want to get him something that I
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+[26:53] could just give him the meat and have him drop it in and not waste, like, I think he went through
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+[27:00] a, a half liter of oil that day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, people tend to overestimate how much oil you need in a zippy by like a good amount. Like you need... Yeah. You only need enough to make up the bench. What are you saying? I told him about the wash. Well, I showed them water submersion technique and he still did the, like, massive amounts of oil, but go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm saying, like, you know, one thing to do is cut down, but in the end, those circumstances, I've heard that
+
+[27:25] that, that, that, that VP, whatever it is, works fine. Um, I've never had any personal experience with it. But I, you know, as a kind of a mid-range vacuum. I hear it's a lot better than the food saver. let's put it that way Okay. But I don't, like, I can't, you know, I won't recommend anything I haven't used personally. Do you know what I'm saying? But if I'm going to eventually upgrade to something that I can actually do retexturizations and things like that, infusions, whatever, I might as well just go all the way. Yeah, or you could get this one and then give it to your dad. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You know, cut your teeth on this one and then give it to your dad when, you know, or I mean, I don't know. I don't know what your budgets are, but, you know, what I find in life is that if I really want a piece of
+
+[28:10] equipment, and then I buy the lesser version of that piece of equipment, I'm never
+
+[28:14] happy, and I end up always, I always, always end up getting the good one in the end. And then the question is, will you be kicking yourself for having also purchased a lesser one? That's what you have to tell yourself. If you're anything like me, that's what will happen to you. That makes sense, yeah. Oh, okay, okay. you have a little bit more time. Sorry. Sure. Okay. I was looking into cryomilling techniques because my girlfriend's gluten free, you know, they're trying to figure out ways to do super fine flowers without spending an arm, you know, like, uh,
+
+[28:43] they costing an arm and alike. And so, uh, I don't in Indianapolis. It's very hard to source liquid nitrogen. Uh, I'm a chemist and I have access to doors and things like that. So that's fine, but sourcing the actual liquid nitrogen and not stealing it from
+
+[28:56] work is another, uh, is another, uh, situation. So, um, can I do the same thing with dry ice or am I going to run into a problem with the moisture content actually contained in dry ice? Well, I mean, the problem with dry ice as opposed to liquid nitrogen is that, you know, it's not very good at contact, uh, you know, because you can't just submerge something in dry ice. You know what I'm saying? So you can get the stuff cold by putting it in a box, but then you have the additional problem of you, you tend to get a lot of condensation unless the dry ice is,
+
+[29:29] unless, unless you're storing something in a box with desiccant and then throwing a chunk of dry ice in and then letting it chill all the way down and
+
+[29:36] then, and then milling it, you tend to get a lot of condensation from the air onto anything that's freezing that hard that's not
+
+[29:42] submerged. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, which is one of the reasons why I don't really like using dry ice, even for like distillation runs, because I tend to condense a lot of stuff out of the air, whereas liquid nitrogen ends up being pretty clean for me that
+
+[29:55] way, uh, because you can do total submersion. But my real question is, is, where are you trying to, like, why is it hard to source where you are? Because that's something of general interest to me, is ease or lack of ease of sourcing liquid nitrogen. You tried, the welding shops won't won't help you out. I actually, uh, don't know, I guess I don't know where to
+
+[30:15] start. Like, I looked online and I typed in, uh, liquid nitrogen Indianapolis, whatever. I mean, that's probably not a good way to do it. Yeah, no. And I was looking for, for food, great, dry
+
+[30:25] ice because, uh, actually at work, uh, when we, when I used dry ice on my cold finger, my wrote a app, uh, there's just a bunch of stuff left behind, so you definitely need, like, I mean, I think that, that dry ice is kind of an exception.
+
+[30:37] Uh, liquid nitrogen, I think, is pretty pure, uh, regardless from a welding shop, but I, I just,
+
+[30:43] um, yeah, I need to, I need to go and and investigate a little further, I think. Yeah, welding shop. welding shop. And by the way, like, so, you know, the classic dry ice, um, dry ice acetone bath for roto vaps, I don't particularly like them because, um, especially in the kind of work that I'm doing, there's a lot
+
+[31:07] of, uh, water phase in the, in the stuff that I'm distilling. And, um, the dry ice is so cold that unless I suck a partial vacuum before I chill down the cold finger, I get massive amounts of condensation in,
+
+[31:21] because the that the bukee cold finger is designed, the vacuum takeoff line is right next to the
+
+[31:26] condenser finger. And so it, unless you have a, unless, if you chill it before you suck a vacuum,
+
+[31:33] I get a lot of crystallization in the, into takeoff from my back line, and then I occlude my vacuum. And then once that happens, all hell breaks loose with your distillation, and it's very hard to get back on track without losing flavor. If you're doing it for food, not for lab work. You know what I mean? Right, right. And so liquid nitrogen, because it is actually somewhat less powerful, even though it's a lot colder than dry
+
+[31:57] ice. I find to be easier. And if I make a mistake, I can rectify it quickly and it's just not as messy. I've never, I've never liked working with dry ice in my roto app. very much. But yeah, so I would go to a welding shop and the secret is that, you know, at least around
+
+[32:15] here, the welding shops also sell to medical places. So they have, you know, theoretically, for instance, they have different grades of nitrous. So like my local welding shop sells nitrous to doctors. And a lot of it isn't really the purity of the supplied gas. It's the care with which they purge the tanks and make sure that the lines that they use for transfer aren't contaminated with things like oils or
+
+[32:38] other nasty things. Okay. So a lot of these guys will supply hospitals and clinics and things like this. And so, you know, I wouldn't worry. I wouldn't worry overly much and every single chef in New York City gets from one of 2 welding shops. McKinney or T.W. Smith, one of those 2 that I know of. Excellent. Oh, I'll check into it, and if I hear anything about where you can get good liquid action in Indianapolis, I'll, I'll tweet it to you or something so
+
+[33:06] that, so, so that people, other people who listen to you in Indianapolis can know. Cool. Um, and and the last thing is, you said that you were a homebrewer on point. Oh, a long time ago, yeah. Did you ever do water adjustments? Uh, what do you mean? So like you would start with RO water and then you would want to adjust based on... Oh, no, like burton salts and stuff like that? No, I mean, uh, like, uh, most of the stuff, most experiments that I was doing, uh, I was, you know, I kind of drew a base level of what I was
+
+[33:39] gonna, like, deal with. And so like I, um, my assumption was New York City tap water. And then, um, I was working mainly on, um, on, uh, mash temperatures, times, and, um,
+
+[33:52] and like, you know, the, the, the grain bill that went into it and, you know, messing with OG and yeast and things like that. I never, I never got to the point where I was messing with the, uh, with like the salts and the chemistry of the, of the water. I was just using filtered, you know, obviously dechlorinated, filtered New York City tap. But I never I never deionized it or removed. It's fair. Our water is very, very soft here. Um, so, you know, maybe it maybe it wasn't ideal. I don't know. But then, you know, that would have been something I probably would eventually have gotten into, but
+
+[34:23] I, you know, but when my 2nd son, Dax, was born, it was just like, you know, it was just too much to obliterate the house because I was doing all grain stuff and it really wipes an apartment
+
+[34:33] out. I was in a very small apartment at the time. Really makes a mess in the apartment. Well, and see, I have I have half a garage that I have for brewing equipment and it feels like the entire half a garage. So yeah, I completely understand. Okay, I was just curious, if you ever heard of anybody using modern assaults in it, like the calcium lactate and calcium
+
+[34:51] lactate glucinate instead of the calcium chloride that people are using, but... someone, uh, you know, call or tweet in and we'll, uh, we'll talk about it, even though it's a little outside of my depth. Excellent Sounds great. Thanks, Dave. All righty. Talk you soon. Bye bye. All right, let's go to our 1st commercial break back with Nils Norin.
+
+[36:17] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[36:41] pork. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Jack, that's like the music from like when, like, the couple in that like, in that like, kind of southern country show, like they're just about to get together. They're headed towards the barn with nothing kind of raunchy's happening yet. That's what that music is. The prelove music? Yeah. It's the country western TV, like movie pre-love music. Let me give you a shout out. That's a band called The Hollows. They're local. They're friends of the network. And all the music we play here is local and, you know, source from friends. So if you're a listener of the show and you have a band or music project, email us and submit your music. especially if you need some pre-love. Because that's going to seal the deal. If, look, if you have a barn within about like a 200 meter radius of you with like a
+
+[37:37] hay loft, like that's the music to crank. You know what I mean? It's gonna happen. That's the that's the reignition of being near a barn. Isn't it doesn't it hurt in hay, though? I don't know. I didn't want to get that, you know. I'm going to guess, yes. I mean, I'm sure there are different qualities of hay. Probably. But it's it's the proverbial role in the hay. That's where you're hiding away from the, the, the, the farmer. Definitely dad. Well, presumably, you know, back in the day, we're talking stereotypes. All right. So do we have do we have nils? Yeah we do. All right. Nils. Hey, how you doing? Going well. So this is Nils Norin. Uh, you know, to, uh, did, uh, some of my best work with Mils
+
+[38:28] Norn now, uh, running, uh, the, uh, Marcus Samuelson Restaurant Group. Is that your official title, running the Marcus Samuelsson restaurant group? What's your official title over there? Yeah, official title? VP of Restaurant Operations. Yeah. And so how many restaurants did you open this week? That was the question we had earlier. I don't, but this week, but uh, this month, but uh, three. For real? Yeah. How many different countries? Uh, two. Okay, well, no, actually, actually three. Bermuda, Sweden and Norway. So. Oh, which one weren't you counting before? Norway. Norway. Norway. Oh, Norway. But, you know, for those of you that, I don't know, you know, Nils is a Swede, so they have that
+
+[39:20] Swedish Norwegian stuff. Give me, give me, give me the Norwegian pronunciation of Mirvold. Uh, Mirvold? Yeah. Oh man. All right. So, no, I'm going to read this question and then we're going to talk about it. And then afterwards we'll talk a little bit about sautéed vegetables because I know you're very opinionated about the sautéed vegetables as well. Here's the question from Justin. I have a question about bone marrow specifically regarding preparation for service. I've just taken charge of the kitchen following the resignation of our executive
+
+[39:50] chef resignation, huh? Yeah, yeah, whatever. Nils, we know how that goes, right? Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the resignation of our executive chef and have been tasked with creating a bar menu. I want to include roasted marrow bones, but don't have a ton of experience with them, and neither do I. That's why we're calling nils. Now, Nils, your big prep used to serve a lot where you would like slow braise them out and then use the fat
+
+[40:13] and things, right? That was your favorite thing to do. Yeah. She is delicious. Yeah. I forget what you used to mix it in with when you were done. Oh, tons of things. Uh, I mean, boneberry, I mean, puree is delicious. Yeah, but yeah, it was, what was it? It wasn't the celery root, was it? What you used to add it to? No, is it sun choke? Sun choke and bone mural. Yeah. You know, this is hilarious. Nastasia and Piper back in Piper was working with us. They did a slow cook on sun chokes and ate all of the sun chokes, slow, quickly cooked. They only cooked it for like 15 minutes and they ate like half a pound each. How hilarious is their gastrointestinal distress. Yeah, that's not the great idea. Yes, and those would like render out the marrow. Now I remember it. He would submerge the sun chokes and cook them low and slow long time to turn the stuff into
+
+[41:04] Inulin so that it's not a huge fart bomb, but, you know, Stas never asked me before she cooked the stuff out, whatever. And then, Nils, I don't know if I told you this. But she then did the same thing on purpose and served it to a friend and his girlfriend at a
+
+[41:17] picnic and she and Piper did not eat it and just watched them eat all the sunchokes while they ate around them. They did a beef and sun choke, like cold picnic salad and did it to them and didn't warn them. I think that's kind of not cool. What do you think? So I guess too much friends anymore. No they are. Yeah, I mean, they're also kind of low quality people. So anyway. Okay. So, uh, uh, anyway, uh, so we're back to the bone marrow question. I follow the general rule of soaking the bone marrow in the bones in cold salt water with multiple water changes, but most
+
+[41:50] recipes. I've found, and do you agree with that? The multiple soak? Yeah, I mean, you just want to get the blood off, right? Because it's gross. That's why. Yeah. But, you know, like, how long do you have to do it to get them, like, really creamy? To get them to roast them? No, no, no, to get all the blood out. Like, how long do you usually let them? I mean, I don't know. A couple of hours usually is enough. Yeah. That's what I figure. But most recipes I found suggest roasting the bones for around 20 minutes at 450 in the Fahrenheit, which
+
+[42:21] is, what is that? That's like 220 or something like that. Yeah. However, I need a much quicker pickup. Is this something I can safely par cook with good results or do you know any techniques for a faster pickup? I'm planning on using 3 inch bones, split lengthwise, and I would like to be able to send them out under 10 minutes. I do have a circulator and I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my sears all, thanks for all you do. Keep it coming. I mean, I would probably pop them, separate them, use it. Are you a believer in like bones for plating versus the bones they come in or would you leave them in the bones? where you pop them out and then cook them separately and then lay them in the bones for service? No, I would keep him in the bones. Why add an extra step? You don't need to. That's true. That's true. So what would you do for the park hook? I was just thinking, because the bones, you can't really vac up that kind of a bone down because they're so porous, you know what I mean? Or would you just keep them in like a CVAP? What would you do for park cooking on that thing? So, if it would do that rooster, which I haven't seen that, I would keep them next to my fried chicken in the C-Lab, and
+
+[43:23] then, and I think they're going to be perfect. That's what, 140? And then put them in the salamander or your, your turbo, uh,
+
+[43:32] torch, uh, or if you do me a Ziploc bag, in, in the circulator, that probably works well too. And you just use them in some rendered, in some rendered, keep, keep the marrow and rendered marrow and just reuse it a bunch. Yeah, I mean, keep the put the whole bone, right? Right. Figure out what the right temperature is, which I'm not sure. But if you're going to do it next to the chicken. What do you keep your chicken at 60? Yeah, yeah. A little over. That's like, what does it keep us? Oh, you keep it at the cook temperature? Yeah, okay. So you hot hold it at the cook temperature. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, yeah, but that's going to be fine. It's not gonna, I don't think it's gonna break the structure down at those temperatures. I think you have to get it hotter to break the structure down, don't you? Yeah, I do Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to hold. I think it's going to be fine. And then like a quick flash off with the hottest thing that you own, and I think it's going to be good. It won't have the look of a roasted bone on the outside, though, just on the top where you sear it off. You think that's a problem or no? No, I don't, no, I mean, you could. I mean, no, I think it's fine if you do it on the top. What does it matter? What does the other gross thing do? Well, it smells good. Yeah, it also depends on how clean you've gotten the bone beforehand. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, you can do a worse job cleaning the bone if you're going to roast the hell out of
+
+[44:58] it, because no one minds a little piece of, like, like, skin or
+
+[45:01] a silver skin or meat stuck to a bone that's, if it's roasted to hell, but nobody wants, like, a
+
+[45:07] blonde looking piece of junk stuck to the outside of their bone. You know what I mean? No that's true. So you clean, you gotta clean it. Yeah, but it's between it, but your pickup is from this house. Oh, you're right. Two minutes and it's up. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, for something like that, like hopefully you have like a deck broiler or a Sally. I think a Sally is good because you're not worried about overcooking it so much. And so like even better than a searsal or something like that, I think is going to be... I mean, I don't think it's going to bleed out too much on a sally if you have it right in the sweet spot. Sears all work, obviously. But I don't think it's going to bleed out too much in a Sally. You know what I mean? No I don't think so. I think you'd be fine. And, uh, all right, so then, uh, and it probably a bone, I'm looking at my hands at the bone
+
+[45:50] with, I think it'll probably be ready to serve within, like, 40 minutes, 40 minutes. you think? Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you might as well put it in an hour before because nothing's going to
+
+[46:06] happen. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying like minimum 40 minutes, I would say. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Because, remember, it's only cooking through the one side because it's not going to heat up that fast through the bone, but I think once it's in there, it could stay in there like probably all of service. I mean, I've never done it, but I think I could probably stay in there all of service. I would bet it, Kevin. Yeah. The only thing I'd be worried about is if you cool it and reheat it, it might get like oxidized. I wouldn't necessarily do that unless it's in a bag enclosed. But, um, yeah, but whatever. I think it would work. Um, You know what I like on my bone marrow? I like parsley. on my bone marrow. You like chopped up parsley on your bone marrow? Nails. Parcel is delicious. And yeah, and I also like a little bit of lemon zest, but that's me. Okay. So then we had another question. Can you run through any tips for excellent sauteed vegetables? And our 1st tip was don't sauté zucchini. Yeah, because it's horrible. Yeah. I mean, the only way you're gonna do it, if you gorge them, right? Take some of the, the, uh, water out of it. Right. Then they can be okay. Yeah, yeah. But let me ask you this. If you could have a sauteed carrot or a sauteed, uh, or a sauteed piece of zucchini, would you ever choose a zucchini? Nope. No, you wouldn't. I mean, it's like straight up. You know, I think, look, I think by and large, you know, we already talked about, uh, you know, before you were
+
+[47:41] wrong, we talked about, you know, what we used to do with the with the mushrooms. Mushrooms are a special case because they're not a veg, they're not a vegetable, they're a fungus. They break down differently, so they maintain their structure even over a long cooking period, which is why you can cook them nicely in a
+
+[47:58] saute without them losing structure and you can get a nice crust on the outside and you can get the water balance right. Very difficult to do this with spongy vegetables in general, right? When you say so, Nils, like zucchini, eggplant. That's why carrots works great. Yeah, that's the king that doesn't. No, no. I mean, but like also like, I'm not a huge fan of like a sauteed eggplant. You? No, the only way I like my eggplant, if they're really cooked through. If they're not cooked soon, it tastes like a tea to me. I'm
+
+[48:33] not talking about hay before. That's not in a good way. Tastes like a what? Your phone fuzzed for a second. Yeah, but it's just it's like, hey, you still not cooked through. So again, if you want to gorge them. Yeah, or like we used to do in the vacuum or like people who microwave them, but the issue is, is the water con, see, zucchini and eggplant both suffer from the problem, like a
+
+[48:58] two-part problem. They're spongy, like right out of the gate, they're spongy. So they're going to absorb oil. And then most people, when they're sauteing, they're so worried about the temperature dropping too
+
+[49:08] low that they overheat the oil and the oil takes on those fishy burnt aromas, which I hate,
+
+[49:13] right? Like unless you're doing wok cooking and you like really do it right, like the overcooked oil on a
+
+[49:18] saute, I think, smells nasty. What do you think, Nose? Well, yeah, I think you know what I think. Yeah, right. I couldn't agree more. That's why we, you know, we didn't used to do a lot of zucchini or eggplants. Right, right. So it's spongy to get go. And then also, anything that's not sponge is water. So it's like, you can't win. You know what I mean? Like, they have very little structure. So, I mean, I think those things are much better. All those things are much better roasted, where you can sit there and let
+
+[49:48] the like vapor, although not zucchini, but eggplant, better, you know, let all the water get out of it or whatever. But those are my tips. Choose the right vegetables. Do you have any like big tips for like sautéing? I think like if you're sautéing a carrot, Just don't do don't do a bad job. You know, I think it's like the big tip. I always cheat. I always throw a little bit of water in, uh, I always cheat, throw the water in the pan, let
+
+[50:12] it let it flash off par cook and then sauté after the water evaporates, but is that considered
+
+[50:16] like a jerks technique? I mean, in a restaurant, you wouldn't do that, but I mean at home. No, I mean, you can. Or, you just sit in until you have the right color, then you finishing
+
+[50:28] up them in the oven. No, yeah, they could do that too. That's probably better because you're not absorbing any water. You probably keep them more dense. I mean, you know, you probably keep them more, you get, get a more dense flavor. Sauté them for color and then finish them in a not too hot oven, like 350 or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm just throw the pan in the oven, right? Just sauté it till you get the color you like throw the pan in the oven and walk away. Just beware that you might take a while for it to finish off in the oven. Yeah, it might, depending how big they are. It's going to be fine on that, though. You can't, then you can park with them and finishing off later. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. All right. So, uh, I think uh, Jack's gonna kick us off the off the radio pretty soon. I have a couple of questions. By the way, Eric Michael Morris wrote in last week about sugar-free gelato. didn't didn't clarify what he wants, so he can't answer that. And then the rest of the stuff we can get to next time. anything good going on, Nils, in the cooking world? Come up with any new flavors, new ideas you want to talk about on the radio show? Uh, Nothing that comes to mind, yes. I'm gonna have some soon, though. I'm actually working on some stuff, but it's too, too early. Yeah? Disclosed. All right. Well, why don't you come back in person sometime, hang out on the radio show. You ever, you ever uh, free on the Tuesdays around 12? Yeah, for sure. All right, cool. And Jack, by the way, tells me that we might be switching our times next season, wherever a season is. I have no idea what a season is. But, uh, we might be switching our times up a little bit, but nil, thanks for coming and answering all of our bone marrow questions. We'll see y'all next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] cure masters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit Surrey farms.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the food scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Age. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwick,
+
+[0:38] Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network with Nastasha, the Hammer, Lopez, and Jack Ainsley in the engineering booth. How you doing, guys? How'd you have that much breath in you after riding your bike here? I don't know. You know what? Well, before I get into the bike, calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. 7184972128. Now back to your question, Jack. You know, you know that everyone who bikes in this neighborhood. They know that there's a, like a block and a half from here is a giant cement factory. You know this, Jack, the giant cement. And something, I mean, I hate driving past it because whenever I drive past it,
+
+[1:13] like, even although I'm breathing through my nose, like, you know, I'm inhaling concrete dust and
+
+[1:17] always, like, I'm fine all the way here, up and down the bridge. I could get off and do the radio show at a minute's nose. bike past that concrete factory. And it's like all of a sudden my mouth is totally shafted. They're just spraying Portland cement dust into the atmosphere to ferocious rate. But I realized something else. You know, uh, you know, for those of you that are fans of Neil Diamond, you
+
+[1:36] know, the Brooklyn Rhodes song. We mentioned on the show before, Brooklyn Rhodes. Anyway, you know that you know this song, right? It does? Neil Diamond? I thought it was, yeah, okay. Jack, you're a Neil Diamond fan. Not a Neil Diamond. What the hell is wrong? Brooklyn Rhodes. Brooklyn Rhodes. You're thinking of, uh, uh, LA's fine some of the time. Yeah, no, this is Brooklyn Rhodes. an entirely different song, not as popular. But, uh, so I always thought it was laughable because we would write, but Stas won't ride her bike here anymore because she took a tumble on Bushwick Avenue once.
+
+[2:07] And Bushwick Avenue, and I've mentioned this before, is like kind of like a slalom course. But then like, it's like, like, seriously, it's like, it's the, it's totally like mogaled out. It potholed
+
+[2:18] out, mogaled out. And then there's giant blobs of concrete, just in the middle of the bike lane, right? And then like a month and a half ago, Jack, I don't know if you were biking around here. You bike, right? I have a car. Yeah, so do I, but I bike, whatever anyway. I have to move it every morning for alternate side parking anyway. No, I know. All right. So anyways, very green. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, is it a partial 0 emissions vehicle? Not at all. No, wait, have you heard of this partial 0 emissions vehicle? It's not 0 emissions. My Subaru is, it says P, let's see, partial P-Z-E-V. Partial 0 emissions vehicle. Hey, listen, people, every car is 0 emissions when you have it turned off. What the hell is a partial, is there partial zero? You know? I'm part, you know, does that make sense? Does that make any sense to you at all? No, no, no. Partial, partial my butt. Anyways, so about a month ago. Maybe you did notice this, even though you were on a car, maybe 2 months ago now. They totally repave the stretch of bushwick that's near us. It was like totally sweet. New black top. No potholes, no life ending potholes, no nothing. And I was like, man, all right, I'm going to stop making fun of Brooklyn Rhodes. And then, like, the next week, the big turds, like, like copper light dinosaur turd fossilized chunks of concrete on the thing, and I realized it was those damn cement trucks, had extra cement in those freaking
+
+[3:38] shoots. The freaking shoots are pointed to the freaking right, right? Uh, you know, so that they're not pointed into the center traffic, they're on the right, and they're blopping concrete right into the freaking bike lane. And that's why there's always blocks of concrete in the freaking bike lane around here. Someone needs to, someone needs to teach those weasels a lesson. You know what I'm saying? Jack doesn't care. He's driving next to it with his car, laughing at the people flying over their handlebars next to him. I didn't even door them and here they are over their handlebars. Wah wah. I've never adored anybody. It's never too late, Jack. It's never too late to door somewhere. I've thankfully never. Is that true? No, I did stop. I did pull an abrupt UE stop and the guy hit me, so that's adoring. I consider that adoring. I did adore this poor son of it. That was a long time ago, though. I was much younger, and I have been doored, so it's like, I guess I paid it forward. Uh, in a kind of reverse pay forward. Steal forward? What is it? I don't know. Good day, Nastasia, Dave, and Jack. Greetings from France. I hope you, me, that is, enjoyed my stay in Paris a few weeks back and you had the opportunity to visit a few of the places I had recommended in previous email. I didn't get a chance to go to too many food things because I was with Dax, who doesn't really care much, although he is now a crepe fan. Do you know that stuff? He loves crepes. I had that crepe maker for years. He never asked for crepes, and now he's like, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes, crepes. jelly. I couldn't get him interested in crepesole with, you know, the ham and the cheese in it. You like that crap, right? Especially you're a Gruyer fan, right? Because Nastasia is a fondue fondue fiend. She loves fondue. If, well, it's not going to happen, but like, that's like, if someone was going to ask the stars out on a date back in the day, and they're like, you know, I know it's cheesy and everything, but, you know,
+
+[5:13] would you want to go to a fondue restaurant? Should be like, finally, somebody's asking me to a fondue joint. many fondue places here. There used to be in the 70s when fondue was popular back, you know, wherever anyways. So that's another thing that style likes. You can put that on the list of 4 things. Styles likes fondue. Anyway, I went to Pierre May and I think a couple of the cheese joints, but I didn't get a chance to eat out at any fancy restaurants who mainly sat outside so that if there was any screaming and
+
+[5:40] wailing, we could just kind of car ourselves away. Tax is old. He doesn't scream and wail. But you know, kids, like, they're not like always restaurant friendly. Although Dax is, Dax is very good. Anyway. Um, back to the question. Imagine I want to add caramel flavor into a sweet recipe. I can imagine that. Can you imagine that? Jack, you have it imagined? Okay. Could I take the original amount of sugar in the recipe? Cook it to a caramel. Let it cool, reduce it to a powder, and then follow the recipe instructions. I am particularly interested in the effect on structure. For example, sugar gives cookies a nice snap and
+
+[6:15] provides structure to egg white, egg whites and meringues. Would pure caramel work the same? Also, it seems that caramel binds with water differently than sugar does. It becomes sticky after a while. When a cake or cookie becomes soggy. In general, would you recommend I cook all the sugar into a caramel or only part of it? And how do the many components of caramel compare to table sugar, i.e. sucrose for sweetness? The 1st try will be a simple caramel flavored meringue. I'll let you know if it works Okay, so here's the thing, right? When you're taking sugar, sucrose, which is, you know, one glucose and one fructose molecule bound
+
+[6:51] together, and you cook it on its own or with a little bit of water until the water evaporates, until it turns
+
+[6:57] brown and starts breaking down, you get a number of things that happen to it. Well, 1st is you're literally breaking the sugar apart and changing it into something else. So the darker your caramel is, the more sugar you have broken down. And, you know, I don't really understand what all those breakdown components are, but they're certainly not going to be
+
+[7:20] as sweet. So anytime that you caramelize sugar, you are reducing its overall sweetness. However, the other thing that you're doing when you're doing this is you are also hydrolyzing some of the sugar into fructose and glucose.
+
+[7:38] You're breaking that, you're breaking that bond, and you're turning it into monosaccharize. Now, the difference is between the invert, you're basically adding invert sugar to your recipe. So if you're taking what amounts to pure sucrose, which we know the properties of. You're converting a portion of it into invert sugar, fructose and glucose, and then you break further breaking down those inverted sugar portions into
+
+[8:00] non-sugar sugar breakdown products. Okay? Now, to the extent that you have residual invert sugar in your in your sugar batch, that stuff is much more hygroscopic. It's going to pull up water more. So it's going to have the same effect as adding corn syrup to something like a cookie or a cake,
+
+[8:19] i.e. it's going to increase its ability to pull water in. So you probably won't have as much snapped arrow. You need to use other things to control the water uptake. Now, the other thing I have to say is that if you look online at people that have made caramel powder in the typical way that they do it, is they'll just cook
+
+[8:41] sugar, and then they'll pour it into onto a sheet, you know, they'll cook it to a specific brown note. They'll pour it onto a sheet. Remember, the sugar will be sweetness will be reduced, and it will probably be more hygroscopic. And then they pulse it in a robo coup until it's a powder and then you have to use that right away or it starts sticking up. However, if you look at some of the comments on recipes like that on the on the interwebs. Because I haven't, I haven't really, I've never had an occasion to actually do this myself. But if you look at a lot of the comments, people are like, it tasted kind of good, but it didn't really add that caramel flavor that I
+
+[9:17] wanted to the recipes I was looking at. And then it dawned on me that, when you say, when one says caramel. And since you're in France, maybe you don't have this problem, but if in America, when you say caramel to someone, they don't really think caramelized
+
+[9:32] sugar, unless they're talking about something on top of a creme brulee. Typically, when an American says caramel, they mean caramel candy, which is kind of like
+
+[9:40] toffee like candy that we eat, like craft brand caramels. Do you like those stuff? Because they're delicious, right? Jack? fan of the caramels? am. You know what Stas and I actually both like? and we tried to imitate once and we miserable failure. Remember this? So, uh, Getz, it's pronounced Getz, but it's spelled Gertz, G-O-E, uh, T-Z, you know,
+
+[10:00] but it's pronounced Getz. I don't want to hear anyone tell me that I don't know how to pronounce OE or Ouma, because it's their name and they can pronounce how they want, and I happen to be pronouncing it correctly. So suck on that. Uh, but anyway, so Getz makes uh, like my all-time, all-time favorite candy. Like, I can eat so many of these things. And Stas, the miracle thing is that she also likes them, which is, you know, kind of
+
+[10:23] odd, for both of us to like the same thing. It's like, you know, I don't know. doesn't happen. Uh, so it's called, they're called caramel creams, and what they are, is they're like a caramel, they're a caramel outside
+
+[10:36] ring and a center like bull's eye of like this condensed milk sugar stuff. they're so good. They're so good, right, Jack? They're so freaking good And they're like the size of a little bit bigger than a quarter, but smaller than a half dollar and they're cut, you know, into pieces that are maybe, oh, I don't know, like a quarter inch steak or something like
+
+[10:57] that. God, I could eat a ton of those. They're so delicious. So Stas and I, we wanted to do it where we were going to replace the
+
+[11:03] bull's eye with coconut flavor because we thought that would be good. And we just, we sucked at it. It was great idea, though. It's good, right? That would be good. And we were going to totally redo it and then do a whole bunch of these, man, we just never did. Um, yeah, probably because we're lazy, lazy. Anyway. So if you're looking to mimic the flavor of caramel, like caramel, uh, and they use, for some reason, I believe they use wheat flour in their recipe, which is weird, but if they craft caramel, it's not caramelized sugar really that's doing that to you, what you're dealing with there is the browned milk proteins, because there is butter and
+
+[11:36] cream typically in, at least in a homemade kind of soft caramel. And the temperatures that you're taking those, um, those things to are more of a firm ball kind of a stage. So kind of low on the candy thermometer scale because they're supposed to be soft, right? And so the texture of them is coming a lot from the fat, and from the milk protein, and
+
+[11:58] the milk protein, you're getting almost like a dulce, dulce de leche, kind of a flavor, but mixed with
+
+[12:04] a high proportion of sugar into a stiffer thing. So that's where a lot of people, when a lot of people say caramel flavor, they're associating it more with a browned milk,
+
+[12:14] butter, and a small amount of sugar caramelization like you again in the Dulce de leche. And so if you're looking to imitate something like that, what you need to do is powderize caramel. And to do that,
+
+[12:27] you probably need to use something that it would absorb some of that butter fat so that you
+
+[12:31] can incorporate it as a solid powder. And for that, you could use something like Enzorbit brand, tapioca maltadextrin, but you wouldn't want to let this stuff get totally solidified until you're done.
+
+[12:42] I think there's some people online who have done it, hopefully with some success. So I would do it that way, but I would, I don't know, I would experiment. Another way is you could probably, um, I mean, it'd be difficult to get the milk. Do they, do they make a, don't make a browned milk powder that I know. Anyway, but I would try I would try doing that. So the question is, are you trying to get the flavor of caramelized sugar or are you trying to get the flavor of caramels? Uh, and your 2nd question was, uh... I got a caller here, if you want to... All right, call her, you're on the air. I'm doing all right. How you doing? Good. It's Antoine calling from Boca, Florida. Nice. How it going? How's it down there? Is it hot as hell? Always, man. Yeah. And humid? Always humid. I always align with you on how gross is in here, but... Well, luckily for you, it's pretty gross up here today too. It probably wasn't that bad, but the bike over in Brooklyn. Anyway, so go ahead. had a question. Yeah, um, basically, I've always wanted to get your idea and thoughts on um, just health and nutrition more than anything else. I like to eat, but I'm not so fond of working it off, or I want to know what sort of things you, uh, believe as far as like health claims as to whether to reduce, uh, any of the claims, whether it's producing complex
+
+[14:03] carbohydrates. Or sugars. Um, what things do you believe in as far as keeping a good balanced health? I mean, I like to eat a little bit of everything, you know, but some things obviously taste better than others. Right. Uh, I don't, but I don't believe in any, any really uh, health claims. I mean, um, to be honest, I sometimes believe that specific things uh, that have, you know, good studies in them actually cause
+
+[14:32] harm, you know, like I do kind of believe that if you consume large amounts of coffee grounds that you'll, you, it's possible that your cholesterol might spike because I believe they've done studies on that, you know, controlled kind of studies on
+
+[14:45] it. But most of the nutritional uh, guidelines are uh, problematic. I think people are getting better at it over the years, you know, you know, better now than they were, let's say, 10, 20 years ago, but if you were to go back and follow,
+
+[15:01] uh, strictly follow the kind of theoretical underpinnings of nutritional science from 15 years ago, you would be almost completely at odds with what
+
+[15:09] the, uh, with what people are saying uh, now. Other than the strict adherence, you know, to variety and moderation, which, you know, hasn't changed, right? Eating a reasonable amount of food in wide variety has not changed, you know, ever, really. Uh, and, and, but like all of the specific things, like it's, it's fat, fat is your enemy 20 years ago. Was fat was your enemy, right? And then it's, oh, you know, carbohydrates are your enemy, and you can eat as much fat in protein as you want, and then it shifts around. Well, now it's a specific kind of carbohydrate or now it's a specific kind of fat. And while, you know, for instance, it may be true, the trans fats specifically are bad. Most people now don't believe that um, fats are bad. Now, the problem here, so you need everyone on their sugar on their sugar cakes, and all of a sudden, the problem here is that it's very hard because if you just, you can't just throw away everything that people tell you, uh, from a nutrition
+
+[16:03] standpoint, because you're still falling back, I think, onto kind of a poisoned mindset for what, uh, you know,
+
+[16:09] proper uh, proper nutrition is, I think. And, you know, I actually wrote something, we didn't submit it yet because someone thought it was too preachy, but maybe we'll submit
+
+[16:16] it to Eater, where it's like, you know, I think the main point is that we have a poisoned relationship towards our food in general here in the
+
+[16:24] US. And I think it alters, um, it alters our consumption patterns. Our ideas towards food alter our consumption patterns. So instead of, instead of like over the course of, uh, you know, a month or a year or 2 years, kind of trying to reset like what we think
+
+[16:43] is uh, seating and good and delicious. So, you know, uh, we, we try to take moral attitudes towards our
+
+[16:51] food like, oh, this food is good, this food is bad. This food is junk, this food is healthy, and healthy food. We kind of crave to eat it for moral reasons, but in general, things that are cooked specifically to be healthy, tend to suck and not be a
+
+[17:03] sating, so we eat more of it, and then we cheat and we eat things that we think are junk because we crave them. And this whole sort of poisoned attitude towards food along with a healthy, healthy dose of kind of the magic bullet thinking that we get from,
+
+[17:14] um, you know, quack doctors like Dr. Oz who tell you that this or that raspberry ketone or this or that,
+
+[17:20] uh, you know, X, Y, or Z micronutrient from somewhere in South America is going to save us all from the fact that we haven't controlled or had good thoughts about our
+
+[17:30] diet in, you know, basically our whole lives. And so this kind of thinking of how we're going to get around the problems we have, I think, is a lot of the problem that we have. So, you know, in general, like, if you were to say, okay, I'm not going to limit what I'm going to eat and I'm going to go out and I'm going to eat whatever I want just because it tastes good.
+
+[17:48] The problem is, is that when you 1st start doing that, you're going to gravitate towards the stuff that you've been denying
+
+[17:53] yourself and you're going to overeat binge on it. And so, yeah, it's gonna be unhealthy after a while. So I don't know, the question, how do we, how do we get ourselves back on track where we can say, okay, I'm going to cook to make stuff taste
+
+[18:04] good and then I'm just not going to eat so freaking much of it, you know? And I think that's really kind of the way to go to it. I mean, to me, like the classic snack wells problem is, is that someone's like, well, I'm buying these snack wells and they're healthy, but, you know, I can't just eat one or 2 of them. And, you know,
+
+[18:20] because, A, I can't just eat one or 2 of them because I'm not sated and B, somehow I think they're healthier for me, so I can pound the hell out of them. You know what I mean? It's just a poison relationship. And so rather than think about the particular health or nutrient basis, especially the nutrient basis, I think, you know, we're
+
+[18:35] so, we have so much over nutrition, 9 tenths of us in this country, not 9 tenths, but
+
+[18:40] like those of us with money have so much of an over nutrition problem that, um, you know, that to worry about whether you're getting this much vitamin C or this
+
+[18:49] much, whatever, I mean, it really just doesn't come up. I mean, most of us aren't deficient in anything. I'm deficient in vitamin D because I avoid the sun as though I was a vampire. But, you know, I'm kind of odd that way. So it's, I don't know if this would make any sense, but, I mean, really what I think, you know, we should, now, I think it can be difficult.
+
+[19:07] So, for instance, if you go to a supermarket and you, and you happen to live in a supermarket that is in, and live near a supermarket that's in kind of a shitty area, it tends to be hard to shop because all the stuff that, you know, like when I, like, you know, when you go to like
+
+[19:20] a really good supermarket or a farmer's market, like you see things that, you know, the average, uh, the average health jack wad would say is
+
+[19:28] healthy, and you're like, damn, that looks delicious. That's a delicious looking tomato. That's a delicious looking X, Y, and Z. And that stuff just doesn't look so delicious or satisfying at a crappy supermarket. And so you tend to gravitate towards the stuff that's, you know, shelf stable and
+
+[19:41] bad quality. And so that you end up eating, you know, a lot of that. And I think that throws things off. So it's a complicated problem. And I guess my feelings on it are rather complicated. No, it was funny because uh, I used to work at a raw juice bar and um, right during that time that I was working there, I was listening to your whole segment on the uh, raw foods and
+
+[20:04] obviously, I, I enjoy cooked food. But, you know, I had to make a living. And as I did that, I started turning on them a little
+
+[20:13] bit. I was like, I'm listening to certain things. I was like, you guys are full of it a little bit. Plus, we also had 5 guys in front of those hooters and I started eating there more frequently for whatever reason. Well, yeah, I mean, that makes, look, I think that, that is a great point. I mean, I love this. Jack, we should put that on our, on our, on our, whatever you put things on. But the thing we put things on. Yeah, I don't even I don't know what it's called, you know, somewhere out there. But the, you know, I think it's really a good point. I think, and I wrote this in the in the thing that that, you know, that we may or may not publish, it's like a little 500 word essay. I'm like, look, don't eat. Don't, and I think I specifically said, don't go eat blended kale blueberries and Spiriolina. Don't drink that stuff because you think you drank too much last night. You know what I mean? Like drink it, drink it if you like it, right? Buy stuff that you like. And if you drank too much last night, don't drink as much tomorrow. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like, that's the better solution, you know, uh, Oh my god, I walked into a juice bar the other day with, you know, bartenders, by the way, I don't know if you know
+
+[21:19] this. bartenders love these raw juice bars because they're perpetually thinking that they're, which they are, damaging themselves with their lifestyle. I mean, let's be honest, a lot of these, a lot of these folks really, you know, they live kind of rough lives, you know? I mean, if you look at, you know, rock stars, which is a much rougher version. they don't age well You know what I'm saying? I mean, in all fairness, actually went from working as a bartender to the raw juice bar. Yeah, well, there you have it. So I go to with one of my bartenders to Liquiteria, which is a raw juice bar here. And this is not really apropos,
+
+[21:51] just I thought it was so hilarious. I walk in there and, uh, you know, I'm not going to buy, uh, I'm not going to buy like a blended. I like to eat fruit a lot. I could eat as much fruit as in a smoothie in fruit form because I'm a weird guy that way.
+
+[22:03] You've seen me eat like 3 quarts of blueberries in a row, right? in solid form, but I like blueberries a lot. But anyways, so I go in there and I'm like, uh, do you have any seltzer water? And the guy says, because you know, you know, my bartender friend was having some sort of liquid monstrosity. And I said, um, Seltzer. And he goes, no, have you tried coconut water? I was like, what I was like, is your coconut water carbonated? And he goes, no. And I'm like, what the hell? you know, have you tried, you know, have you tried getting, you know, I'd like some salsa water. Have you tried me punching you in the face? I mean, they're just totally unrelated. I mean, they both happen to be liquids, but, you know, beyond liquid form, I guess he thought I just wanted a non-flavored or light
+
+[22:45] liquid. like, no, I want a carbonated liquid without sugar in it. Thanks. But, uh, anyway. So, uh, I appreciate the feedback you gave me, and I'm glad I pegged you, uh, without knowing
+
+[22:56] so as a former bartender turned juice person, turned 5 guys customer. So I think you're, I think you're approaching. I think you're approaching some sort of balance. I think you're like, you know, you're going through the balance. you're going through, hopefully the sinusoidal waves that like mellow out and then you, you know, you get to a point where you just have like a steady, steady diet of delicious stuff in moderation.
+
+[23:19] Wow, call it the sine wave diet. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the, the, uh, the damped sine wave, right? It has to go down towards, it has to go down towards the flat value. Right, right. This is like a square wave. Yeah, you don't want to, you don't want, wait, no, you don't want to, you want to be sinisoidal, but you don't want it to, like, be amplified over time and spool off into, into, into trauma at the end, you know, uh, you know, then you end up being like a
+
+[23:41] fruitarian. you don't even, which is like, like, or Jane, or James. Has anyone ever met a Jane, a true Janist? Yeah, we had one on the radio station. He was in a band. He's in a band? How do you play an instrument that doesn't harm a bug? Yeah, I mean, like, I kind of have an appreciation for anyone who's like, I don't eat onions because they inflame the passions too much. What kind of music do you play if you're a Jane? Like, it's like world music, I think. But I can't, like, incite the passions anyway, right? It's all about like, ooh, like nothing, right? Did he have the he or she have the the bug mask on? No. So it's kind of like, I don't think it was, I don't think it was so extreme, but... Oh, so didn't sweep the ground ahead of him or her? Not quite. His name is Sonny Sonny Jane, actually. Yeah. Sonny Jane? From Red Barat, which is they call themselves party music. don't think Jane's party. If you can't eat an onion on a moral basis, I don't think you can party. But we'll look it up. I mean, I'm not an expert on Jane isn't by any stretch. But anyway, thank you so much for your call and keep calling back, especially if you say funny stuff about working at juice bars. Thanks, Dave. All right, bye. Jack, should we go to a commercial break? Yeah, I'm also vitamin D deficient, by the way. Oh yeah? Yeah, they had to give me like prescription, you know, extra strength pills. I called them sun pills. Recently? No, a few years ago. Really? Do you dip yourself in SBF 2 billion? No. See, I don't I don't either, but I like wear hats and like long sleeve. Yeah, me too. Yeah, Stas, you've seen pictures that like my wife has sent of me on the beach in long pants, long shirt, hat,
+
+[25:20] sunglasses. Yeah, that's me too. Yep, vampire coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[25:42] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano Hamzer aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world class, aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire
+
+[26:09] Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marbling contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit
+
+[26:18] edwardsvam.com. Man, I think we're all lucky there's not a barn nearby, because you know that's the, if there's a barn nearby with that music going, it's all over. Right? My jack, is that what we said? It's the it's the country music pre-leaven tune. There's like a shed in the back. I don't know. Now you're ruining it for us. Now we have to like, you know, everyone needs to chain ourselves down so that we don't all run in the back by the shed. It's not a real shed. Brooklyn shed. Yeah, yeah. It's not romantic. Well, it is for that. Is that is that puffy leg bird still there? haven't seen him in a while. There was a there was a hipster dove who lived at Roberta's and
+
+[26:59] then, and then we saw another dove there, pigeon really, not dove pigeon. I feel like the pigeon mysteriously disappeared right around the same time, indie Jesus. coincidence. Wow, you think it just flew off? I don't know. Like a white wing dove. A 2nd question on Italian meringue, as the macaron recipe I have calls for it. I'd rather not move around. I'd rather not move around the scesyrup. By the way, you know Italian meringue, right? You whip the egg whites, and then you cook the hell out of the syrup, you pour the syrup in super hot, and you whip it into the KitchenAid or whatever you happen to have when the syrup's hot.
+
+[27:31] I'd rather not move around the syrup when it's very hot. Close to 120 on the Celsius. Could I make the syrup 1st and then let it cool to a more reasonable 60 or 70 C before I pour it into the egg whites. I understand the syrup helps cook the whites, but I was never told the benefit of that. French meringues is made with all the ingredients at room temperature and Swiss meringues are heated to 50 or 60 C. Many thanks and keep up the good work, Stan B. Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. So there is a cooking, but obviously, you know, I don't know what the finished temperature is when it all balances out. The issue is, and I don't know. Again, I don't know because when I've done these recipes before. I've only ever just followed the recipes. But one thing that is true is if you're pouring sugar syrup that's at 120 C into egg whites, you're going to lose a lot more, you're going to lose a lot more moisture from like sudden evaporation into, as steam into the kitchen and away from your
+
+[28:26] meringues than you would if you, uh, if you didn't. So my guess is that, um, my guess is that if you let it cool, you'll have a higher liquid content in your
+
+[28:40] finished meringue, then you would, aside from any cooking, let's erase any cooking issues from
+
+[28:47] it, huh? Because theoretically, you're going to cook these meringue anyway. But my guess is that you'd be messing with the water balance. I don't know what the high temperature there is doing to the proteins more or less than
+
+[29:00] it would at a lower temperature. Let it even say 80 C or something like this, something that's well above the temperature that would set the egg whites. So I don't know, but it could be the water balance might be a problem. I'd appreciate anyone sending in a tweet or a comment who has more experience, you know, maybe our favorite, you know, macaron blogger, you know who you are,
+
+[29:21] could write in, and tell us what she thinks about it. Anyway, many things keep up the good work, Stan B. We have a question in from Jean-Pierre that I'm going to have to ask for some clarification for next time. My question is that we wrote a blog about tortillas, and I want to know why when I cook my white corn to make tortillas, they come out brown instead of white or
+
+[29:41] yellow, what am I doing wrong? I'm using field corn, it's not burnt just a brown natural color. That's very odd. You know, I don't know. Like, why would, so, because we got to make sure that you're, I mean, I need to see it. Like, I need to know exactly what your procedures are and what you're adding, Jean-Pierre, because I can't imagine why they would turn brown, brown. I mean, um, maybe, you know, some coloration on them, but I'm not familiar with any, um, corn, corn, uh, like pre-colors or color, uh, color precursors that are going to go brown, uh, under the
+
+[30:20] treatment, uh, under next normalization. But I could be wrong, and I've seen, and I've done white corn, and it comes out pretty white. I mean, maybe a little bit beige but not brown. So, you know, there must be something with the technique that you're doing. So just tell me, like, send me an email, uh, you know, for the question and I'll answer it next week with kind of exactly like step by step, what you're doing in the recipe so that I can help
+
+[30:45] uh, troubleshoot, like the more steps, the better because, you know, you'll maybe include the step where it's where I can figure out what's going
+
+[30:52] on. Okay. Hi, Dave and Nastasia and the gentleman or the gentleman in the booth. Hello. Hello. I'm wondering if you have any advice on diluting 35% cream with water to make something close to 3.25% milk. I tried it once using a blend tech HP3A. That's a blender. Uh, cream and water, and it didn't really taste like milk, and I think the fat did not emulsify. Do you have any advice? I want to do this because I'd rather carry a liter of cream home from a grocery store than 4 liters of milk. And if it works well, it would be potentially a bit cheaper too. Michael from Toronto. PS, thanks for hanging out at Dice, with the hangout at Dice Show, after Soylent Green. Did we talk about that? I did the, uh, remember that? I did the, it's made of people. Do you know there was someone in the audience who was there who claim to not know that Southern Green was made of people beforehand? It's people. That's really great. Did you watch the movie? You've seen it? Jack, you a fan of the Soiling Green? I haven't seen the movie, but I'm familiar with the story. It's not a bad movie, and it's it's Ever G. Robinson's last movie. And, you know, it's got the Charlton Heston in it. And regardless of what you think about prying guns out of his cold, dead, you know, fingers, he was a good actor. You know what I'm saying? Apparently he was kind of a sweet dude. I mean, not a jerk, that's what I hear. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I mean, like some people are complete jerks and you still like their stuff, right? Like Michael Stipe, jerk. Music good. You like REM? No. You don't like RAL? Why? What about you, Jack? I mean, they're good. You know, like, don't go back to Rockville. that's a good tune It's a little, it's like, it's like just before my time, you know? I remember losing my religion, liking that song. as a kid. Yeah, but I mean, like a lot of things are before your time. You still like it. Stas pretends to like the Beatles, even though she hates over half of their catalog. I would guess you hate the Beatles. Well, she hates all the songs you like. Oh, right. She's like, you know, if there's some sort of song that you like. or that anyone listens to on a regular basis at the Beatles. I think all their songs are great. I just think that a lot of them are radio played and they have so many great songs that the radio chooses the same ones over and over. So I don't feel like listening to those ones anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's fair. See, when I, you know, as I got older, like I had more tolerance for the songs that were overplayed on the radio as I was a kid.
+
+[33:16] Oh, yeah. Like I couldn't, when I was or like overplayed by like the kids in in the in the smoking section. Like, there was a, there was a chunk of time when I couldn't listen to Led Zeppelin because it's all that got played next to me. It was like Led Zeppelin. I'm like, I'm done. And then I was like, you know what? Led Zeppelin is, there's a reason why those kids were listening to it so much because it's great stuff. You know what I'm saying? You like Led Zeppelin, right? Finally, something. You don't like Led Zeppelin Jack? You know, I have a problem with the not crediting the source material. They took a lot of those songs from older blues musicians. Yeah, but, I mean, they're good. I like the record. They're okay musicians, but I mean, his voice. Okay. Bottom? Yeah, medium drummer. Yeah, plant, got some pipes, man. Nah. Uh, whereas do you like, uh, uh, what's his name? Steve Miller because he does credit people? Yeah. Yeah, do you do? Oh, what? No Steve Miller? Zeppelin over Miller. Is it Abracadabra that did it to you? Come on, dude. Steve Miller. Stas had this argument with Nastasia like a couple years ago. She's like, what kind of hits do Steve Miller had? I'm like, really? He had like, what, seven, eight? No, he had like 10 or 12 mega hits. No, I bet mega. Bet it's seven or eight. I like an eagle? Yeah, look up how many. You know, let let your spirit carry you to the list of songs that they have done. It's like, well, the reason I was saying that, uh, you know, for Jack's benefit is because he did not write big old jet airliner, but ended up in an era when people didn't give a lot of money back, even though I think the person who wrote it didn't really have access to his own publishing rights or something like this, ended up, uh, giving that guy a lot of
+
+[35:15] money and it was the reason that guy didn't die in poverty was because of Steve Miller's version of
+
+[35:19] big old jet airliner. Please don't carry me too far away. And, uh, well, I almost did that with a Casey Cason. Rest in peace, Casey Cason. You know, do you like Casey Case and Jen? Oh my god. Okay, I'm sorry we're going far afield cooking issues, people, but like back in the, in the, I think it was late 80s, early 90s, Casey
+
+[35:37] Casam had an outtake where he was doing an introduction to someone's dog that died, and the dog's name was, I forget what it was, something like fluffy or snuggles,
+
+[35:47] or snuggles. And, uh, he was introducing U2 and, like, to commemorate the fact that, uh, that this dog Snuggles had died and he was doing his typical
+
+[35:57] thing. And then he kind of flubbed the, uh, he flubbed the thing and he was like, and he starts cursing and screaming at
+
+[36:05] the engineer for having him like go do this downer, like, he's like, and his dog died, and then he starts, he has to talk about you too, and he's like, these guys are English, and who gives it? And he's like going
+
+[36:16] like off on it. And then so they have like, I forget what tune it was, like unforgettable fire or something like this. And Flatland, the, you know, kind of concept band, did a thing where they had somehow stolen those outtakes and just have Casey
+
+[36:28] Cason cursing and screaming about YouTube being English, which is hilarious.
+
+[36:32] And, uh, yeah. strong concept music. Anyway, back in the day. Okay. Hello everyone. It's Mildred from Albany, New York. still working through the backlog. I'm up to episode 137 right now, but I skipped ahead to get Dave's suggestion on soy sauce replacements. Thanks so much for the suggestions and forgetting my last name right. I haven't had a chance to try any of the suggestions yet, but mushroom ketchup was something I'd already wanted to
+
+[36:56] try due to my interest in historical food. I have 2 follow-up questions for Dave and any guest that you may have here. Like Moch, like most ketchup recipes, there is a reduced to one half or two thirds or more of the original volume step. Could I change that to 13rd or one quarter to keep the consistency more liquid and closer to soy sauce for the marinade we're trying to recreate? You mentioned that I could ferment two. Yeah, probably. But the thing is, if you don't reduce, the 2 things are happening when you reduce. One, you're getting rid of liquids. right? Duh. And so you're going to have a more concentrated flavor if you reduce more. Second, you are boiling off some volatile. So for instance, if there are volatiles in there that taste better after they've been boiled a while, they won't taste the same after they've been
+
+[37:42] reduced. Secondly, If you reduce enough until things start getting paste like or start losing a lot of their liquid nature, then you can start getting effects due to higher temperatures when you're working.
+
+[37:55] And so you can get more kind of roasty toasty flavors. Just got to make sure you don't scorch. So in those cases, you'd actually be better off reducing it to its original
+
+[38:03] volume, like they said, and then watering it back a little bit with water or with something else that has flavor in it to try and get that liquid back in. But you have to run a test on your particular recipe to see what tastes better. And it's easy to take a small amount of it. Um, and then when you're at the, you know, when you're at the point where you, you know, you've reduced
+
+[38:21] it how much you want to for the texture you have in the finish recipe, pull out a little bit, then continue to reduce the rest down to, um, to, you know, what the original recipe says to, right?
+
+[38:32] Then take a portion of that, dilute it back to the same texture as the one you pulled out earlier, taste
+
+[38:36] it, and see which one you like better, right? I mean, that's what I would do. Um, and you can, um, get a feel for whether or not the reduction is actually doing anything beneficial. It might do something non-beneficial. It might actually harm the flavor. Who knows? Uh, but give it a give it a try. And then two, you mentioned I could ferment the mushroom ketchup. I've never done fermenting like this, so what I introduce yeast or something else, and should I do this before the reduction
+
+[39:01] phase, what resources do you recommend? Mind you, I may not get a chance to do this step. soy allergic best friend won't let her husband or I make kimchi in the house. I'm not sure that this will be allowed either. That's why they make garages. Like, if you have a house, like, I don't, I don't have a house. I have an apartment. So, like, I don't really have any place that I can carry out crazy experiments.
+
+[39:20] In other words, I can't do anything that's going to smell bad because I would hear about it. And my dog would probably eat it. But, uh, actually, we could do it at the lab. Here, like, Styles, like, yeah, thanks. But, um, I don't know. frankly, how, you know, bad it would smell. If you have a vacuum machine, fermentation in vacuum bags is
+
+[39:41] always, um, is always an option. You have to make sure that your salt levels are high enough such that everything is safe. I wouldn't add yeast and you're not really going to probably be doing yeast fermentations with this. You're going to be doing mostly lactic acid fermentations, mostly anaerobic stuff. So, um, what I would do is 1st pick up a copy of Sandar Katz's book on fermentation because it's extremely uh, accessible and uh, that dude has fermented almost any damn thing that you can think
+
+[40:14] of. And if he hasn't fermented that thing that you can think of, he has found some crazy person somewhere in the world who has
+
+[40:22] fermented, said thing, and he has really awesome guidelines. And so he might have guidelines already for this there. I didn't get a chance to look at the book before I before I did, but I would definitely go there. If you have access to a vacuum bag. Uh, you could try uh, doing it under vacuum so that it doesn't smell. Another thing you can do, by the way, is if you don't have a vacuum machine, but you have a sealer, you can put it in a Ziploc bag, get rid of most of the air in the Ziploc bag, and
+
+[40:47] you know, following similar instructions to what I say in cooking issues for doing a steak in a Ziploc bag, and then put that inside of another bag that you seal, or
+
+[40:56] alternatively put it inside of a larger Ziploc bag. The reason for that 2nd thing, and then inside of the containers, should you have an explosion, due to gas, because there will be gas, most likely there will be gas produced by the fermentation. Um, when that happens, if a bag blows, man, right? But if it blows inside of another bag that's sealed, well, then it's still contained in that outer bag, right? Right. That's the last time we did sauerkraut at the lab, I did it in bags and you couldn't smell anything till I opened it. Now I stank up the place. Yeah, all right. Anyway. Thanks for your time and keep it delicious. Mildred. Okay. Um, all right. Well, last question. So we're getting close. Do we have any good things on Twitter? Yeah, but I don't know if we have time for them. Well, well, you can, you can mention them and then we'll, we can get it up till one o'clock today. All right, so let me answer the last one, a question here. Martin from Sweden here. Thanks for a fantastic show. I am a ballot biologist. Biologist. Biologist is gross, right? I'm a biologist, an engineer, who's gotten a lot of enjoyment in learning, listening to your musings on food and cooking. I'm also one of those annoying a-hole vegetarians. Wow, calling yourself an a-hole. I love vegetarians. I love them. I just don't happen to be one. Vegans? That's tough. You know what I'm saying? Like if you don't make milk and eggs. I still like you, but I find it harder to cook for you. You know what I mean? Looking to improve my cooking techniques. As you can imagine, I'm having a lot of fun with pressure cooking, hydrocaloids, and infusions. True. A lot of those things work great onto the vegetables. My question, though, is whether there is any value in applying low temperature cooking to mostly
+
+[42:30] plant-based ingredients. Are there any cool applications, or should I simply avoid wasting money on a temperature controlled water bath, thanks in advance, Martin? Okay, listen, 1st of all, Michael Natkin, if you're out there, let me see, dance. For those of you who listen to Princess Black album, or if not, Michael
+
+[42:48] Linak, and if you were there, please tweet on in some really good applications for circulators, and vegetables from, you know, from
+
+[42:57] the perspective, an actual, honest to God, vegetarian. I say from my standpoint, it is true that most of the time that I'm cooking veg, even if I'm using vacuum techniques, which I think are very good for vegetables, I tend to do them just in simmering water rather than, you know, ways to circulate
+
+[43:15] or bath on it because most vegetables when you're trying to cook them, You're cooking them above 85 Celsius anyway, because what you're trying to do is break down the pectin. And in order to break down the pectin structure and to get a vegetable to be soft, you have to get above 85. And there's not a lot of advantage to going much higher than 85. And once you cook something in a bag as opposed to in boiling water, you don't really get mushy vegetables like you do when you're boiling in water and you
+
+[43:46] overboil. So there's not a huge advantage to the control. When you're doing standard vegetables like that. There's a huge advantage to vacuum bagging, et cetera, et cetera, but not a huge advantage to temperature control. Now, that aside, there are some kind of special things that are done with vegetables that are
+
+[44:02] very useful to have temperature control on. So, uh, things like heat setting, uh, like
+
+[44:09] transgutaminate stuff on soy products, that's one. Uh, having uh, making kambudashi, like kambudashi, like the taste of kambudashi, is very dependent on the temperatures that are used when you're making
+
+[44:22] said dashi. And so when I make kambudashi, I use temperature control bath because I'm trying to hit around 70 degrees Celsius, when I'm using the
+
+[44:30] combo, I think higher than that, the taste is not as good and lower than that, the taste is not as good. So that's a good application for circulator with vegetables. Another is, um, another is certain things like carrots, can have like
+
+[44:44] a raw taste of a raw crunch of a carrot, but you can get sweetness intensification in a carrot by bagging it and cooking it below its softening temperature.
+
+[44:55] So like 70 C. Like overnight, you can get some interesting effects on vegetables like carrots that way. And I also believe that the effects of vacuum
+
+[45:04] and impregnation of flavors, that's gross. flavors into vegetables is accelerated under temperature and things
+
+[45:13] like that, and the useful thing to have a water bath is you can do it without cooking
+
+[45:17] them. You can cook it just below the softening temperature of the
+
+[45:21] vegetables, so you can cook it at like, you know, like I say, like 70 or something like this. Another thing you can do with fruits and vegetables. If you have controlled water bath is you can do enzyme related things. So you can do, um, you know, Steingarden's, uh, famous mashed potatoes that were then taken up by Joel Robuchon, by Wiley Dufray, and all these where he does an intermediate step, an intermediate cook step where he uh, strengthens the uh, granules by, um, uh, I believe it's a pectin methyl esterase thing, causing the, you know,
+
+[45:56] the Star... I believe that's what he's doing. I believe he that he's setting the structure of it more. I don't remember the exact chemistry of it, but he takes it to an intermediate step enzymatic step that sets the starch granules in place so that they don't break when you're doing it. And that's his famous kind of potato. And you can also do that in French fries. I don't particularly like it in French fries, but you can do it. And for that, he used to do it on the stovetop just trying to get very accurate temperature, but it's a lot easier if you have a circulator to do things like that. So there are special techniques. There are special techniques like that that, um, you know, are good for veg or for soy. And obviously, if you eat eggs, eggs alone are a reason enough to buy a
+
+[46:38] circulators. If you don't eat eggs, if, you know, that's a whole, a whole separate ball of wax. But just for egg cookery alone, I think a circulator is worth it. So, but hopefully Michael will write in and, you know, tweet in and tell us some other great applications that maybe are more widely applicable to the vegetarian
+
+[46:58] community. All right. In the 5 minutes we got left. Stas is going to go over some sweet tweets that we got in because I didn't get a chance to go over last week's tweets.
+
+[47:08] So what do we got? You have a ratio. We can. Who's it from? The Vendor Sigal. Did you go over this? Make air out of liquid by adding less gin powder. Oh, the ratio? Yeah. Jeez, I don't know. It's like under, I think it's under... I always tend to add kind of like under a percent. The trick with Lessethen is that usually you want to heat a little bit. You want to get the powdered less thin. Um, and the real trick with it. I don't ever do it. I haven't done it since I taught it. And so I forget the exact ratios I use, but they're widely findable in, like, just go to Martin Larisch's, uh, textures, uh,
+
+[47:43] thingamajig on the, on the, uh, Kaimos thing and look up any one of the number of the lesser thin, uh, foam things. The real trick to doing it isn't the percentage. The real trick is how you hold your stick blender. So you take your court container, you stick your stick blender in it, and the bell housing of the stick blender has to go above the level of the
+
+[48:02] liquid. So you have to tilt the quart container or tilt whatever cup you have it in, and then like at a 45 degree angle, or even a little more, and stick the blender in such that the blender, the blades are going out and going back into the liquid. And once you do that, you're frothing and whipping the air into it, and then you can blend it and pull back on it to get the foam, scoop that stuff off and go.
+
+[48:21] And you can keep doing that over the course of the evening as you're doing service. And that's the real trick to less it then. not the actual ratios. That's not the important thing. Okay, Roshan Gonzol Corale. says, Dave, do you have any suggestions on Blue Torch in UK for Sears Auburn dramatic not sold here? Unhappy face. Oh, the unhappy face. That's like every Stad's face is an unhappy face. So she's making your face for you. But, uh, we don't know for sure. I hope to go to England, maybe when the book comes out in November. We think that Rothenberger makes a torch. I forgot the name of it. We think that Rothenberger makes a torch that's a good substitute. Here's what you need in a torch to have it be good for a series all. A, it needs to have a high heat output. Uh, you know, no higher than the Burns Matic TS, uh,
+
+[49:14] 8000, but no lower than the TS 4000. So that's about, uh, somewhere between uh, anything between about seven. I forget what the 4000 is, but somewhere between like 7000 BTUs per hour and like 12,000 BTUs per hour in that range. It needs to have, uh, in the tip where the tip is, it needs to be the right diameter, which I don't have in my head, but it's not, you know,
+
+[49:35] it's, uh, somewhere near five eighths of an inch. And the important thing is that that tip has to have a little fins of metal on the inside, they create a twisting motion that mixes the
+
+[49:47] air so it's pre-mixed. And I think those are called vortex burners or something like this. Everyone has their own different thing they call that turbo, whatever. needs to have that. It also, uh, very key, needs to have a, uh, needs to be not pointed any uh, further than a, I forget whether it's 30 or 45 degrees, the Burns Matic is, because otherwise you're going to be off center when you have the torch on it, and it becomes an issue of falling over, and it becomes a safety hazard in terms of its
+
+[50:12] stability, if the torch head is pointed too far down. Next, it needs to have a trigger start on it so that when you press the trigger, not only does it ignite the
+
+[50:21] Piso, so that it knights the flame, but it also, when you release the trigger, the torch has to turn off. And that's one of the key reasons why we never bothered developing the itwatani to its final stage because you had to turn the gas on with one knob and then press the trigger to ignite it, but when you release the trigger, the torch stayed on, and we felt that that was not a good forest, here's all, that's just not safe for
+
+[50:41] Serial. Uh, and, uh, last but not least, the Piso element should be located uh, relatively far down the gas delivery tube so that it doesn't overheat.
+
+[50:54] That's another problem that Iwatani had is that the Pisos would burn out after a while because the way they're designed, there is some cherry red around the tip of the
+
+[51:02] torch tip, even in normal circumstances. And just a little bit hotter that it got when it was on a seersol was enough to ruin the Pisos after a couple of hours of firing. And so, you know, anyway, so those are the main things. From the way we look at it on the
+
+[51:17] interwebs, the Rothenberger, I think it's called Surefire 2 or something, as I forget, seems to
+
+[51:23] be seems to look like it would function with those things, but I can't recommend it until I actually use
+
+[51:27] one. But the next time I'm in the EU. I'm going to buy one and see whether it works. Uh, wait, because we have, uh, we're, well, anyways, we'll try to go over the uh, Jack. We done, right? We're done. We're done. All right. So that's it for cooking issues. We try to get more of the tweets and next time, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Cooking issues.
+
+[0:56] Call in your questions, too. Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Whoa, coming to you, funky. Coming to you, funky. What was that, Jack? That's funny. We should play that. What is that? It's like 2 seconds long. Oh, yeah. It says cheese. Oh, cheese, cooking issues. Is that like a new theme song for us? For cutting the curd. Let me hear that one more time, though. bring up the come on. Come on. Sounds like it could have been a Pluto song, maybe. Jeez. Yeah, that's old style Pluto stuff. Yeah, maybe. Sweet. Join as usual, Jack, and Nastasia the Hammer. However, do we still have a call around the air? Yeah, I do have a caller. Why don't we do a show with a collar? Yeah, when we do that and then we'll get back to our little niceties and pleasantries and what that. Call her, you are on the air. Hi, Dave, how are you? All right, how you doing? Good, thanks, Ray. I was wondering, um, how well something like a champion juicer would do for
+
+[2:00] making, uh, like pistachio paste and kind of nut butters and, uh, if it works for kind of making desserts 1st or something like that. Well, as it so happens, Nastasia and I have a lot of experience using the champion juicer for exactly that
+
+[2:17] task. So the 1st thing you did, do you own one already? Sorry? Do you already own a champion juicer? No, I'm thinking about getting one, and that would kind of be the, the, uh, kind of taking point that would make me go out and get one. Yeah, it works well. Here's the deal. It heats it up. So if you're one of these believers that everything has to say hyper cold as you're doing it, that ain't
+
+[2:40] going to happen because there's a lot of friction generated inside of the champion. But, uh, but it's not as how many, how many like, how many zillion pounds of nuts have we put through champion juicers before? So many. I think we had an event, right? For one? like a huge amount of people. We went through that that kick where I was doing all nut milks in the centrifuge and I was making nut butters and spinning and making nut oils. Remember that? And we were just making like, we would have to make like, like a gallon of, of, uh, of like, uh, uh, what was it,
+
+[3:10] cashew, no, pecan whale that we would go, then we would go through all those tins of pecans from uh, those nuts. Oh my god. The short story as it works. You might need to add, like, you might need to grind it a couple of times. What we used to do is we used to, we used to put it through the champion for the 1st
+
+[3:29] pass, and then we would put it into a, uh, into a stone grinder to get it down like hyperfine, like commercial peanut
+
+[3:35] butterfine. Um, but yeah, sucker works. It also grinds cocoa nibs quite well for the for the initial grind, you're going to need to put it into like a stone mill to get it down to actual chocolate grind stuff.
+
+[3:47] The one thing that you got to watch out for is after you grind the 2nd £5 in a row without
+
+[3:53] stopping. The, um, it heats up rather severely, and a champion juicer will heat itself up to the point where it melts the, uh, it melts the safety
+
+[4:07] interlocks and that the motor is hot enough to boil water. So, I mean, yeah, you should give at least the ones that I've used. So you should give it a rest before it asks for it because it's not going to ask for a rest. It's just going to keep on going until until, I don't know, until a fire starts. You ever have one of those things actually kick out on you? I don't know that it has a thermal styles. Remember that time that we put all the towels in the water and put it on the back and it was like a sauna because it was like boiling the water off of the towels? Another thing is, is that every professional chef who buys a champion juicer and there are many, instantly loses the blind plate. So the bottom of the champion juicer either has a mesh screen that you use for juices or a blind plate that you're supposed to use for things like frozen
+
+[4:46] bananas if you're a believer in that sort of thing or nuts. And so you don't want to, you don't want to lose that. But yeah, it works. Oh, I think we might have lost, and I heard a click clack. Anyways, he heard most of what was important anyway, right? He got it. He got it. He's got that. anyway. So now for the intro and pleasantry. So later than normal, had a flat tire today. Flat tire on the Williamsburg Bridge, which I love, going up, but
+
+[5:12] it was kind of a miracle, like that my bike wanted me to be late, but he didn't want me to be too
+
+[5:16] late, because I no longer carry with me, the stuff to fix flat tires. I should have started carrying that. The patch is so small. It's just, I don't know, somehow, like, I started swatching bags back and forth, and so then I, I just don't have the bike repair kit with me anymore, but I do have a pump on me, thank Christ.
+
+[5:29] Thank God. I mean, thank goodness. Bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep. So, I'm going up to Williamsburg, right? But still too late to turn back, because you know you can't get a taxi in my neighborhood, like anywhere near as noon. So I hear, You know that noise? And so I'm like, oh, crap. So I look down, sure enough, my front tire is going. And but some miracle, it stopped deflating before I was down on the
+
+[5:59] rim. So I was like, what am I gonna do? So I just pumped it up to like 2 thirds of its rated pressure and I slowly leaked all the way here. I made it all the way here with a slow leak. I even passed some dingleberry on a freaking, like mini moped thing. Styles wants to beat. So for those of you that live in New York City. Like there's these dudes riding around these. It's almost always dudes, right? It's only delivery people. Which are mostly. Mostly dudes, yeah. And they're on these damned electric bikes and it's like... They're not electric, though. There's just like an attachment, right? Well, they, they, like someone somewhere designed. They took a normal bike that a crappy normal bike and they bolted a battery pack and like a little motor to it. So yeah, they like their, they're designed to be that way. Okay. But every delivery, you've seen these jack, right? have, yeah. What are your thoughts on? I don't really I don't know. They're like cars. He's like, Jack's like, I only want. But no, we all know that Jack doesn't drive bikes because he drives cars. as we all know, they were mutually exclusive. Captain Sustainability, Jack Insley over there. That's me. By the way, when we come out of commercial break, we should hear the cheese song again. You like that, huh? Did you write the cheese song? I didn't, no. Who wrote the Chase song? I'll find out, but Diane Stemple is the host who brought us that song. I think it was a friend of hers. I do have a caller whenever... Oh yeah, call her. on the air. Hey, how's it going? Hey, Nastasia and Jack. Love you guys' music, the best always, man. Especially now that we have a cheese song. cheese. I didn't get to hear that one today, but... Anyways, it's Antoine from Boker, just calling back. Oh, hey, hang on. We were talking about, we were talking about health and bartending. Exactly. Yeah. and how they made it, related or mutual exclusive. Exactly. Yeah, I had a few questions this week. Um, one of them was your thoughts and comments about this uh, potential ban on raw milk cheeses. What do you mean? I mean, oh, are they trying to ban even older than 60 days? Yeah. Oh, that's... Yeah, I got it through the pipeline. My girlfriend works at Whole Foods for the specialty department, and they were saying recently that they want to ban all Rommel cheeses even over 60 days. Yeah, I saw some, like, uh, blips and bleeps about that a couple of months ago on one of the cheese blogs.
+
+[8:33] Like it was like pushed to my Twitter account. Somebody was like, oh, Mike Geez. And I haven't heard anything about it since. Jack, have you guys talked about this at all on any of the cheese programs that we have? I will shoot them a line and ask. I mean, what if anyone were to actually push something through like that? I mean, I think that's absolutely preposterous. I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's an absurdity. I mean, do you know what the proposed reason for it is? I mean, as far as I've heard, I mean, it's been a huge game of telephone for me because one person heard from another person, but as far as I know, they want to ban any cheeses that are raw milk
+
+[9:06] cheeses. So, your Gruyers, Robert Ford. Parmesan stuff. Parmesan Reggiano. Parmigiano Reggiano's name is raw milk, is it not? It is, right? Exactly, yeah. I mean, it's preposterous. I mean, the current regulation, I think, is even too obviously too stringent. Um, I did hear some rumblings about it, but I don't know. I mean, if someone's proposing it, it's an absolute absurdity. I mean, my feeling was from the get go. And you know, I spoke years ago to some food safety people about it. I mean, you got to remember, the way food safety, I don't know, I don't think this is a food safety concern. I mean, I don't know when the last time somebody got poisoned from Parmigiano Reggiano is. Oh wait, I know when it was. It was never because it's never happened. But the, um, the issue is, is that uh, food safety people, right laws, because, um, for instance, you're allowed to have sushi, even though it goes through procedures, you're allowed to have steak tartare or rare
+
+[10:02] steak, because the assumption is, is that when you order that, you know the risks that you're taking on. And the raw milk stuff with cheeses is because they, they, you know,
+
+[10:10] they, they figure that the average consumer wants everything to be as safe as like a
+
+[10:15] hyper pasteurized, like American cheese product is, right? And that, and that the customers don't know that they might be assuming a,
+
+[10:22] a, a risk of pathogens, that they don't, they're not aware of if they consume a raw milk cheese. It's young. That's their theory anyway. And so my feeling was, like, put a label on it. I'm allowed to smoke, you know, so like, why can't I have a raw milk, cheese, as long as it says on it, like,
+
+[10:38] like, raw milk may kill you, the same way that, like, you know, when you serve someone a raw egg at a restaurant, you say, this is a raw egg, this might kill you, and if that scares you, please order something else, you
+
+[10:48] know? Uh, I mean, I always thought that was a better kind of a, I mean, like, I think people would buy it more if it had a big parental advisory, do not eat, we'll kill you, label on it. I mean, think how much more of that they'd sell, you know? Like, you know? So, yeah, so I'll look into it because I remember I heard some rumblings and then
+
+[11:05] I totally felt. But Jack, are you going to write a note to yourself to follow up with this? I'm writing a note to myself to come up with a parental advisory food line, because I think that'll really work out. Good fruit cheese. This cheese may kill your children. I mean, it works for music, right? Yeah. I mean, like sells a lot of music, right? I mean, I mean, look. I mean, a lot of that early stuff would have sold without the label because it was like so, so over the top, you know, like NWA and stuff. I mean, that stuff was so over the top that, you know, it didn't really require a label for kids to know. Tipper Gore didn't need to come out and tell me that that stuff was kind of like a little bit over the
+
+[11:39] top. But, you know, some of this stuff, the milder stuff with the parental guidance. You know, you go through the store and you're like, which one of these things is going to piss my parents off the
+
+[11:48] most and you just search out for the labels? Could be the same thing with cheese, you know? Same thing with like the hot peppers. You heard about this Trinidad Scorpion pepper that's like one. 5 times hotter than the Nagridge Loki pepper. the point in that? Does anyone know what the point is? Are you a hot pepper eater? I love all anything that makes me hurt? I love the most. Have you tried the Trinidad Scorpion? No, no I haven't. Yeah, so like, there's a whole, like, you know what, you know what I'm talking about, though. It's like a vicious, evil looking little pepper. Paul Adams from Papa Science has some, but he had some dry, but like have you tried the ghost pepper? As far as I can discern, the ghost pepper has no good taste to it. It's not like a habanero. Well, if you use it like, like a little bit of it in a big pot of something. I think that's how it works best. Because I love Sri Lankan food and apparently they use ghost peppers. Yeah, but why not just use more of a pepper with more flavor? By the way, 2 dudes sitting at the table outside of the studio here pounding shots. Just like shots away, dude. Like, well, it's, you know, it's 5 p.m. somewhere. These guys are, you know, banging these things back like they're in Europe. It's like they got transported from Europe. Maybe they are. European. It is August. Yeah, and they probably like, we're being overrun with Europeans with excess money in their pockets. Please come here and burn your money in New York City and add to our tourism business. We need it. Am I right, Jack? Yes. Yeah. Any other things? Because I got to look that one up. Yeah, I also, I sent you a tweet last week that I have issues with drinking coffee. I love the taste of it, but I didn't know what it was. I isolated by having just caffeine by itself. Yeah, I told you that. I told you to have the no dos, right? Yeah, I can handle that, so I don't know. I can usually handle high acid things. I don't know what it is in coffee that might be getting at me. And you tried decaf coffee and decaf coffee does it to you as well, right? I haven't tried deep coffee because I never saw the point. Well, no, but you try it just as a test, the same way that there's not that much of a point in no dose, because, I mean, that gives me a spinning headache, but
+
+[13:43] like, here's what you do. You try the you try the decaffeinated coffee. So then, so if decaffeinated coffee is fine and caffeinated coffee is not, then it, you know, it could, it has to
+
+[13:53] be, It's not the caffeine because you've tested that. So it's something else that's washed away in the process. And so then you would have to test to see whether or not super critical CO2 decaffeinated coffee works, but the water decaffeinated coffee
+
+[14:04] doesn't, you have to do some tests. Now, if decaf, my suspicion is, is it decaf coffee, I'll do it to you the same way that caffeinated coffee will. You say it's a stomach ache, right? And this is regular, this is a regular coffee, not espresso, right? Uh, I've done both. Right. So when you say stomach ache, do you mean you need to go to the bathroom really quickly, like it gets your motor running or do you mean just like a stomach ache? No, no, no. I mean, it does both. The going to the bathroom is fine. That's a desired effect. That's why, yeah, that's one of the reasons why I drink the coffee in the morning. Yes but go ahead. But no, I get an actual like stomach aching afterwards. Usually 3 or 4 years afterwards. Three or four what? Like 3 to 4 hours afterwards. Okay, they said years, I was like, what? Uh, the, uh, I mean, that's that's a long memory. Like, I had a cup of coffee 3 years ago. And man, my stomach hurts now. That's some serious post-hoc ergo proper hawk right there. But the, uh, well, so the thing is, is there's a lot of stuff in coffee and maybe one of the, maybe it's not the actual
+
+[15:03] pH, maybe it's one of the, um, you know, maybe one of the particular organic acids in the
+
+[15:10] coffee like, like upsets you somehow. you know, could be something other than just, because your stomach's acid enough as it is, you know? So I don't know. I'll look into, um, I look into, um, Jack, write this down. Jack, can you keep a list and then send me like the day before? I can look up some of that. I'm actually going to do this. All right, cool. I'll try to look up because I have like a bunch of books on this subject on coffee about things in it that might cause stomach
+
+[15:37] aches. You know, I'll look up Andrea Illy's book, the espresso, the chemistry equality, and look up the list and see whether there's anything I can find and produce the scientific literature. But you've done the 1st step, which is, uh, you've tested, uh,
+
+[15:49] no dos. And I hate that stuff. Did you used to take the, did you ever take that stuff in college to us, the Nodos? I, you know, I... Is that like 5 hour energy shot, same kind of thing? Well, it gets around the middle, middle man. It's just straight caffeine at a pill. know what I mean? It's like, you know, it doesn't have any of this, like, fake, like, you know, oh, it's gonna blah, blah, blah. It's just like, here's caffeine to freaking like slam your system open. But I used to just pound, pound, pound, mountain dews. That's what I would do. Diet do. I would just pound, you know, diet mountain, because I used to pull all nighters like one, at least once a week. You know what I mean? At least because I didn't do any work until it was too late. You know what I mean? Uh, anyways, uh, so yeah, so I'm gonna try, I'll look into it and next week, uh, we'll try to get back. Jack's going to send me this stuff, but try that decaf thing and see whether or not that hooks you up, all right? Yeah, for sure. And then next week, I'm sorry, not next week. Next month. I'm gonna try to go to WD 50 because I just heard the recent bad news that they're closing,
+
+[16:44] so... So something ends, something new will begin. Although I don't think he's planned it yet exactly what he's going to do, but I mean, I wouldn't expect, I wouldn't expect him to be down to one restaurant for too long. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. But I'm definitely going to try to head there. I don't know how hard it is to get a reservation. I don't know. haven't looked but I bet hard. I'm going to go once again before it closes, but I bet you it ain't so easy. Yeah. I'm going to try to do that pretty hard and then I'm definitely going to check out the newest, coolest, grape bar, booker and bags. Yeah, sweet. Well, let us know. before you go and if I'm not around, hopefully I'm around. If not, tell us how it was. Sure will. Thank very much. All right, have a good one. Jack, you want to take our quick commercial and come back and blast through the rest of cooking issues? That sounds like a plan. All right, brother.
+
+[17:42] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come
+
+[17:57] from for centuries. And I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[18:03] fete accompli for us to support heritage radio network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com. Wow. You like that meditation music? Little cheese. See, I'm much more on the, give me another cheese song and contrastinction to Steve Jenkins's cheese song. Yeah, I hear you. Hey, Nastasia, this will bother you. You know the guy's name that made that song on the break? No. Jerome LOL. Like, like laughing out loud? Correct. Oh, you also got a gift. I did? Yeah, they've got a gift. Got a love gift. All right, well, look at it in a minute. Let me blast you some questions because we never got any questions. Stas is going to unpack this, which he didn't already do, so I don't know what it is. Oh, because you have so much problem opening my packages normally. Stas opens letters much like my, much like my son does by just like flapping it open to see whether money falls out. how she... You taught me that. Yeah, I learned it from watching you. Okay. Seriously, let's get some questions. So, uh, I had a question in that says, hello. I think Dave missed my question. Apparently, like I got it in this in a Twitter format. This is from Rodney Goodman, and he's like, he started, he's like, he started, like, off on a tangent and forgot my question. So we're not going to do any tangents. So don't talk to me about this this gift until I finish this. Anyway, the question we read last week was, is it possible to buy cream and then dump water into it to make milk at home so as to save on weight and stuff like
+
+[19:36] this. Answer, no, for 2 reasons. Here are the 2 reasons why. And also, did I answer the, I won't go off on this tangent, but did I answer the beer ice cream question a while ago or did I also tangent fly off on that? We'll do that real quick too. Okay, so here's why. So, uh, when you have yourself some uh, some whole milk. When I say whole milk, I don't mean whole milk like in a store. I mean, like, you get your milk out of a cow, right? What you have is, is you have a water phase with fat droplets in it, right? When you let it sit, the fat droplets rise to the top and you have your cream enrich stuff at the top and you have your milk at the bottom. However, The water phase is relatively similar throughout, right? You with me here, stars? Water phase relatively similar throughout? She's not paying attention. She's looking at the gift, which is good because she has to describe it to me in a minute. Uh, Sonyhoo, the here's what happens. When you're taking cream and then you water it down with water, you're watering it down with water and you're not watering it down with milk proteins and all of that other good stuff, whey proteins, all this other great nonsense, right? Uh, and everything else that's in the, in the water phase of the milk, like you could water, cream down with skim milk, but then that, that, that misses the point because you haven't gotten, I mean, then you have to still carry the, uh, the, the skim milk home with
+
+[20:54] you. So you're not saving anything. You could water it down with powdered skim milk, and that would save you some weight, but you're going to have that like off-flavor that comes from powdered skin milk. Powdered skin milk, believe it or not, tastes, even if you ever tasted it, tastes even worse. I thought you were the one that like, we didn't have a TV. We had to glue together 2 automobiles. What? No. Anyway, skin milk is powdered skin milk. is good as an ingredient in things like English muffins, but not so much to drink. Jack, you ever had the powdered skin milk? No way. It's nasty. Sounds horrible. Yeah, I mean, look, it's something you drink because you can't necessarily afford to have like real milk around or like, you know, before Parmalot came out and you have it in your cupboard for
+
+[21:33] 8000 years or whatever. Anyhoo, uh, so you could do something like that. But again, that stuff's nasty. Here's the 2nd reason why you shouldn't do it. 99.9% of the cream that you purchase in a supermarket has been ultra high temperature pasteurized. And the reason for this is, is cream doesn't sell nearly as quickly as milk cells and cream doesn't get used nearly as quickly as milk does even once it gets
+
+[21:55] home. And so they assume they, meaning the dairy weasels, assume that the cream is going to be on the shelf for a long, long
+
+[22:03] time, and so it has a much longer window of shelf life that's required for it. And so they pasteurize it to a much higher temperature for a higher time, so that they can assure that they kill enough of the stuff in there such that it lasts a lot longer, but that makes more of a cook taste. And if you can ever go find yourself. So, I mean, raw, forget it. But if you can ever go find yourself some regular pasteurized even cream as it posed and do a side by side of that with ultra high pasteurized cream. Like it is a world of freaking difference, like almost as much difference as there is between, let's say, regular milk and
+
+[22:37] Parmalot. Although, you know, a bunch of Europeans like that box milk. You ever hang out with the Swiss weasels that you hang out with? But they like it over there, right? Some people actually enjoy that crap. What's with the weasels today? I don't know. Weasels. They're like ferrets, you know, like, you know, remember Giuliani? We ever talk about that in the show, how Giuliani hated ferrets, and so he made them illegal because he's like, and then he got in arguments with people on his radio
+
+[22:57] show. I was like, you're, why do you hate the ferret lovers? You ever heard this? Like, like, do, yeah, do a search for the radio episode where Giuliani literally berates a constituent, by the way, a New York City resident who says, you know, why do you, what do you have against ferrets? Because Giuliani, towards the end of his career here,
+
+[23:15] like really kind of went off of his nut in terms of like arresting homeless people, doing all sorts. I mean, I was forward a lot of the quality of life stuff here, but like, then he's like, you know
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+[23:23] what, one of the big problems in New York is people keeping ferrets, ferrets. They should be illegal. And so he made it, he like made him push through like ferrets are illegal. He's like, sir, you raise weasels. They're weasels. And he starts screaming at this guy about how his ferrets are weasels. But like, why does Giuliani care whether some other dude has a weasel or a ferret?
+
+[23:40] It's weird. Anyway, cheese weasels, dairy weasels. So that was my answer on that. Now on the beer ice cream, because Jack, I didn't talk about the beer ice cream, right? Sorry no. Yeah, so somebody a couple weeks ago asked about making beer, ice cream, and I do have any thoughts on it. Yeah, I like beer and dairy things. Here's the daily deal. Beer doesn't have a lot of alcohol in it anyway, so you're probably going to be okay on the alcohol level, but beer has a lot of water in it. So if you want to get rid of some of the alcohol and you want to get rid, because, you know, alcohol will soften your recipe, you know, versus what it normally was. So if you want a little software, then leave the alcohol if you don't. But what you need to do is get rid of some of that water. So what you want, I would boil, I would boil the beer off a little bit. I would also make sure that you choose a fairly non-hoppy beer. And this is the same thing like when we do, um, when I do cocktails like the, with beer, most often I'm choosing very low hop beers, uh, so that they don't interfere too much with
+
+[24:37] uh, the flavors. So I would choose like a low hop, uh, low hop, like beer. Like, don't go get like dogfish heads like, you know, 120 minute IPA to do this stuff. Uh, you know, we do like, uh, like Abby's and and Caesons and stuff like this. Like, low, mellow stuff, and boil off some of the water, and then add enough milk powder to it, back to milk powder, add enough milk powder to it, or boil some
+
+[25:00] milk and add it to it such that your level of milk stays the same in your recipe. So typically I would add like liter cream or 500 mils cream, 500
+
+[25:09] mils milk, uh, 170 grams of sugar and uh, 10 egg yolks
+
+[25:14] and uh, salt, right? Plus flavoring. So, you know, if you wanted to take that entire half liter and have it be beer, that's a lot of
+
+[25:23] beer. But, you know, I would I would boil some of the water out of the beer, take it down and then milk powder it up to the same level as it would be if you used half a liter of milk, stir it into your cream,
+
+[25:33] pasteurize, and go. Yeah? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Uh, so, uh, what's the what's the presence now? This is from Dorothy from HealthGlenn.com. Oh, yeah, I remember she wrote a question in a while back. been a while, though. Nice. She was a farmer from Minnesota and she gave you some syrups. Oh nice. What do we got here? We got some razuberry tarragon shrub. And what else? Smoked cherry shrub stas. You have to drink this one. Unless it's cooked. Is it cooked? I'm sure it's cooked. Okay, I'll try it. I'll try it if I fall down. going to booker index tonight. Oh, tonight? All right. This isn't poison, so you can... Well, not poison for normal people, but as you know, I'm going to the cherries. But if it's cooked, it should be all right. Then we got some ginger lime cordial and what's the jelly? It's a lime and green tea marmalade. Marmalade. do you think about people who say marmalade? You like that or no? You ever watch Chee Chong movies? No. No? Jack, you ever watch Chee Chong movies? but I don't remember. Eggs and bacon marmalade. You ever see the one where they, they, whatever. No, you would think that people would still watch, you know, Cheech, very smart guy. You know, Chong sent to jail for no apparent reason because someone used his name to sell drug
+
+[26:43] paraphing. He had to go to jail for it. Ridiculous. which one I witness in this country. Okay. Some more questions. I know you guys like to focus on what makes food delicious, but my question is more at the opposite end of the spectrum. It's this. Why are the pizza crust from all the major pizza delivery chains so relentlessly disgusting? I know that sounds harsh, but if you know how to make pizza dough and have an even basic oven. It's actually kind of hard to make pizza disgusting. And yet, in my opinion, the big change managed to make a pizza that's mostly pretty inedible. Certainly to anyone that knows what pizza should taste like. Do the big chains face some special challenges in making our cooking pizza that are not
+
+[27:17] obvious. Thanks for your advice on this, Simon from Cambridge. Well, um, I worked at Domino's when I was in college, and everyone knows that Domino's Pizza is, as you say, relentlessly disgusting, except for, you know, and like, like, no offense to the Papa John's
+
+[27:34] Corporation. I love Papa John. No, I detest Papa John's. My kids love it. Like, my kids think that, well, Dax doesn't, but Booker thinks that Papa John's is like the highest quality pizza in the world.
+
+[27:43] In fact, he he likes it better than any other pizza that you can get. I don't know why. I don't know why. I think it's to make me angry, to make me like very, very angry. But I can tell you why Domino's Pizza was bad. Domino's pizza was bad. First of all, the sauce was bad because it contained a lot of sugar. It was low quality stuff and the ingredients were crappy and had been sliced up in a factory like 18 years before they were put on the pizza. Beside that, the crust, the way the crust was made in this, and I'm sure it's the same in all these chain situations
+
+[28:12] is the dough is not made in house. It's made somewhere else, uh, and then retarded and then um, put on pallets and left to proof. And so, even had they used a good dough. Um, they, you know, like trying to get it when it was at the autumn level of proof. like you just never, you never would. And then I'm pretty sure that they weren't using very good, uh, flour, right? And also, I just think they're cheap. I just think they're cheap. They don't want to like go through the time. I mean, you would think that they could go through the time to do like an actual long leavening process. Like, you know, when I make pizza dough. It's like a 24 hour kind of a thing, right? You know, at least 24 hours before start and I let it go a long time and make it. And then a lot of the people I know who make good pizza. This is the way they do the crust. But, uh, and you would think that Domino's knows 24 hours in advance, like how long it's going to take for them to, you know, how many pizzas they're going to make tomorrow, roughly.
+
+[29:06] And so that they could they could do a long rise, though, if they wanted to. I don't know. But the other thing is, is their ovens really do suck. Domino's, uh, Domino's uses a conveyor oven and their conveyor ovens don't run at an extremely, um, they don't run at a
+
+[29:22] temperature, conducive to making good pizza. And the way that the heat delivery in them is provided is not conducive to making a good pizza. And so consequently, they do not make a good pizza. And I think the average thing in most chains, uh, is, is that they like uh, kind of a breadier style and then I think that's also difficult to do. I actually misread your question this morning. I thought you say, why, frozen pizza is so crappy. So I was going to get into that, but maybe if someone else cares about frozen pizza being crap, we can get into that because I got to get some more questions before we get kicked off of the air. Am I right, Stus? By the way, did we hear anything from... Okay. So, um, here we go. We got a question or not a question so much as a as a statement based on last week. I asked for vegetarian uses for the emergency circulator. So Eddie Shepard, you know, who wrote the vegetarian cookbook and his, uh, his, uh, a vegetarian cookbook. Uh, it's uh, www.veggie chef.co.uk is his website. So he wrote in. Um, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Uh, Eddie Shepard writing from the UK. Enjoy the show, uh, and heard uh, Martin from Sweden's Question at the end of last week's episode regarding sous vide, low temperature vegetarian cooking. Um, I know you prompted the excellent Michael Natkin to write in, which will be great. I'm a big fan of his blog and chef steps, of course. As another vegetarian chef myself working a lot with sous vide. I thought I might be able to add some helpful suggestions as well. Firstly, the application of poached eggs and ice cream, et cetera, are, of course, well documented, fantastic vegetarian uses of sous vide, and for making lemon lime curd, or any other flavor curd you fancy. It's also very handy. Fancy sounds like a very English word, right? Fans, but cat fancy, even though that's not English. You like that magazine, cat fancy? Yeah, I knew you would. And Dave already went through a lot of the benefits of cooking a range of fruits and
+
+[31:03] vegetables sous vide for flavor precision texture, as well as the benefits of making dashi in the water of ass. What do you think about vegetables instead of vegetables? Why would you say? Vegetables. I don't know. Ellis like the word vegetable. What are you about you, Jack? Nah. Then I also use CV for a number of other applications covered below. Low temp halloumi. We talked about halloumi on the show before, right? Hanumi, the cheese from Cyprus that can be grilled. hallumi good cheese. They actually, literally, that was their advertisement. They're like, it's halloumi good cheese. I'm like, really? That's what you got, that's what you got. So, hulumi cheese, similar to queso, par Frier, similar to a bunch of things, it's a, it's a, it's a cheese that's
+
+[31:42] made, uh, without acidifying the curd. So it's a directly ren coagulated and apparently having the relatively neutral pH of a non-acid, uh, non-acidified cheese, uh,
+
+[31:54] prevents, uh, it from melting, uh, substantially. I know it does because I've used it, and then also they cook, they make like a ricotta style thing out of the way when they're done by acidifying it, and then they cook the cheese, curds, pressed cheese curds in the way, which solidifies them even more, and then you get your
+
+[32:11] hallumi cheese or your frying cheese, which you can slice, and then you can grill, and it doesn't melt, but then, and it gets, it's squeaky, but then when it cools off, it's nasty squeak.
+
+[32:19] Anyways, I like halloumi. I like all I like queso parfia. like all that stuff. Anyway, so, uh, Eddie Shepherd writes in, it says, halloumi cooked at 64 Celsius for one. 5 hours with butter, fresh mint and lemon zest is delicious and benefits from infused flavor as well as having a lovely sauce texture. I haven't been able to achieve by any other cooking method. It can also be pre-seier to get the lovely brown flavors. Um, And he also wrote uh, for transglutaminates use for uh, the vegetables. I use sous vide for some vegetarian applications or transcript camenades, including a pressed mushroom technique, which Michael and Chef Step took inspiration
+
+[32:53] from as well for their own technique for these like mushroom burgers and or like kind of mushroom
+
+[32:57] blocks instead of meat. And so I'll just tell you what they do. They, uh, he, Eddie slices and dehydrates the vegetable, which mushrooms, which is porous. And then, uh, makes a slurry of soy protein, isolate, uh, and, um,
+
+[33:11] flavor and then mixes in transgutaminates and presses it flat in a block and then, and then cooks it off later. lets it sit for 4 hours and books off later. Now, the interesting thing is, is that he uses an extraordinarily high percentage of
+
+[33:22] transcontaminating this 5%. So it's an typical typical meat style thing. It's like one%. Uh, and this is like five. So it must need a lot to bind it together to, you know, his satisfaction. Chef steps uses instead of soy protein, uses sodium caseinate, and then uses 33 and a
+
+[33:39] quarter percent transcontaminator thereabouts in their prep. They also use ground mushrooms instead of mushroom slices and make more of a burger. But those look good. They look good. And Eddie also says he uses sous vide making his halloumi at home because that's how you're not supposed to boil the way that you put it in,
+
+[33:57] supposed to keep it like, he keeps it 90 C, which is about right. I think it's 195 Fahrenheit is how much they cook it. So he says it takes a lot less diligence than the normal thing it doesn't get scorching. He also uses it for putting white chocolate in a vacuum bag and cooking it at 90 C for like 24 hours and it gets like a dulce de
+
+[34:15] leche brown. You know, you've seen those things, like the, like the white chocolate that I actually make taste good by cooking it for a long time. No, no, I hadn't seen it. Plus I don't want to talk about it. Um, anyway, um, oh, and also he says that uh, he ordered a TS 8000 Burns
+
+[34:29] mag TS 8000, which is the one we use on the Sears all in the UK through the eBay. Costs them $60 total, which is more or less what it would cost to get a Rothenberg. But the question is, and I'd love to hear back from you, Eddie, is, do the propane tanks in the UK fit, or do you have to make a special adapter? Anyway, I hope that's some help. And if you do get across to the U okay, when your book launches, try to get up north as well, there's lots of great food and cocktails happening in the
+
+[34:49] Manchester, and if you've not visited before, it's a great city. I have not. Have you, stars? No. Uh, okay. And so, uh, they're gonna kick, they're gonna kick us off. So I have like, well, no, I have like I have like 4 minutes, right? 4 minutes. I have like 4 minutes. And I just want to give a shout out to Co Miles for supporting the network. Oh, I love Com Miles. Yeah, he's the man. Com Miles is a good man. Thank you for supporting Coma. He supported us with the Marnes cuisine book, which I really enjoy. He's a great guy. And some interesting stories, which I will not share. But, well, he shared with me when he took the sous vide class. I think it was sous vide. Uh, some like some funky stories. Anyways, um, okay, so we're ripping through. This is Sam from Guysville. Where's Guysville? Anyway, for a chamber vacuum sealer, just getting water oil on the inside of a vacuum bag where the ceiling element presses affect its ceiling ability,
+
+[35:34] thanks, Sam, from Guysville. Yes and no. A small amount of liquid is not going to hurt too much because the temperature is such that it'll boil it off and then
+
+[35:42] seal fine. However, large amounts of liquid can cause problems. Also, if your liquid has any crap in it, like spices or whatnot, this can inhibit the seal because it's physically a particle and
+
+[35:52] it prevents the bags from touching it together. So I've had many things go wrong. Where am I from? Wrong. I've had many things go wrong when you have stuff like pepper or stuff get in spices. I've also had a problem with lots and lots of liquid there because I don't know why. I guess as it's boiling out, it creates little channels and stuff, but a small amount of liquid's not
+
+[36:10] going to be too much of a problem. So don't worry about it. Um, and then finally, although I think I know I missed one. I missed one. I'll tell you who I missed. I'll tell you who I missed because I'll get you next week. And we'll get to the Twitter questions next week. Next week, we're starting a section. What's it called, Jack? What, the section of things you haven't answered? No, the, well, we have that, but we're going to have no, and I'm going to be on time next week. Oh, yeah, next week because I'm not around the week after that. No, was it Nastasia reading the tweets? What you say I was going to? Oh, yeah, we got to I got to come up with a name for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a, we got a new, I'm not going to be able to answer Brandon Johnson's questions on carbonation, but I'll get that next
+
+[36:45] time, and we have another question on, on, um, well, I'll do the bag
+
+[36:51] in box, because I can do that in 2 minutes. So there's also a carbonation question, why it burns from Bushwick, Brooklyn, writes in about bag and box syrup. Hey, Dave, Jack and Nastasio. I was wondering if you've had experimented with making your own bag and box, soda concentrates for use in a commercial beverage system. I'm really interested in experimenting with a frozen carbonated beverage machine for
+
+[37:07] cocktails, and since these machines are under pressure, i.e. they don't have a hopper, you can pour a mix into. I think the only way to get my ingredients as I would be through the concentrate line. I've never used a bag in box system before to the syrup pumps, just pull the liquid out, or is there some sort of magic going on with the
+
+[37:20] bags? I could theoretically just cut off the BIB container and stick it into a container of my drink ingredients, what sort of ingredient ratios
+
+[37:26] would be looking forward to do a carved alcoholic slushy concentrate. Okay, that's a good question. Yeah, bag in box, they just have a, usually a pump, the pumps that are manufactured typically by sure flow here. They're run off of carbon dioxide, and they pull the liquid from the bag. You need to make sure you get rid of the air in the bag because that can mess with the bricks. And then they push it through an orifice. set for a certain pressure and that's how they meter out the syrup into a typical Wunderbar bargun. And then you adjust with a little screw exactly what the bricks is. So I'm assuming that there's a similar sort of mechanism going on in one of these machines, although I've never used it. Now, here's the here's the story. Here's what you need to look at. When you're looking to make a carbon, when you're looking to make an alcoholic slushy, right, the 1st thing you need to shoot for is the right alcohol level. The right alcohol level is between about 14 and 14.4% alcohol by volume.
+
+[38:12] Don't go any higher than that, or you're not going to get it very slushy, and if you go too much lower than that, it's going to get pretty hard in the machine, right? You're gonna look for roughly 8 bricks. So around 8% sugar. So do your calculations based on that. Now, to go any other way, you're going to have to cap, 8 brakes means 8% sugar by weight. So in a, you know, if you weigh uh, a liter uh, a
+
+[38:34] weigh a kilogram of uh, product, then, you know, roughly 8 uh, 80 grams
+
+[38:40] of it should be sugar. anyway. Um, Here's what, I'll give you, here's a, uh, typical. Typical soda, like is a roughly a 5 to one ratio. So 5 parts water, one part syrup, which is a total of 6 parts, okay? So 6 parts, let's say we're going to do 6 ounces out of 30 mil ounce because I use 30 mil metric ounces, right? That's 180 milliliters. I'm just doing this calculation for you. You gonna have to go back and do your own. So one ounce of that syrup, right? It's about 30 milliliters. And if you were going to use a simple syrup, like a bar syrup, which is about 50 bricks. That's one. 23 grams per milliliter, which is the density of a 50 brick syrup, one ounce of that's going to weigh 36.9 grams. Uh, and then, so, remember, it's 50 bricks, so half of that weight, half of that 36.9 grams is going to be sugar, that's
+
+[39:25] 18.5, uh, 45 grams. So soda made with a 50 with a 50 brick syrup, which is one to one simple syrup. will have a bricks of, and if parts, five parts soda, one part syrup. We'll have a brakes of 10.25 or slightly less sweet than the Coca-Cola, and use those rough things to make your own bricks
+
+[39:43] calculations, and we'll get back next week with cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
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+[0:25] anytime anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a 1st
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+[0:31] stepfather. Talk space made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talk space works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 co-pay, no insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your 1st month with promo code space 80 when you go to
+
+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. Cooking issues starts now. Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Kurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Burst Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every 12, 30, 12, what
+
+[1:43] are we? 1210? Lets say we start at 1210. I know, no. We have to say 12. Let's make it 12. All right. You know, listen, peoples. It is true that I leave my house late, but it's because I'm hard at work on the questions that you guys have submitted. But for some reason, I always seem to think that I can make it a little bit faster than I can. Today, I didn't stop, but my bike had the same problem. I took my tire off, my and my tube, no leaks. It's the Schrader valve. That's right, bike people. I'm an American. I use Schrader valves, not these Europretentious pressed as some guns that you guys, you bike enthusiasts favor. I was like, I don't know, I mean, I don't even know. You a bike rider. But you use... I don't bike the way you do. is that supposed to mean? Like, you go, like, car speed, like, anger, you know. Well, that's the reason I like biking. I like biking because you can, if you were to go all out on the street, like walking or running with like an angry look on your
+
+[2:44] face, like all your stuff on your back, in your work clothes, people would. They would think that you were, they would call the cops. They would think you were crazy. If you're in your work clothes. And you're going a 1000000000 miles an hour on a bicycle with all your stuff, people might think that you're a weirdo, but they're not going to call the cops and be like,
+
+[3:03] they're crazy bikers. But that's about it. I can deal with that. Can't do it in your car either. No, like bike is the only place that you can really get your kind of New York. There's too many damn people here rage out. You know, my wife, my wife was like, I was complaining to my wife. She like, Dave, you're, you know, you're becoming a crotchy old jerk in your, in your old age. Uh, because you know how they have the bike weekends in in Manhattan, where they like turn... Yeah, they turn like Lafayette and like stretches of like real streets into bike, bike, and like, what was that thing? Rollerblading? It's for summer streets, is it? Yeah, yeah. It's the worst time to bike. It is the absolute worst time to bike. It's like families riding like 4 abreast at like 2 miles an hour. And I'm like, brothers, sisters. I've got fantastically expensive tomatoes in my bag. I build a special support structure for my bag when I'm going to carry tomatoes and then I line said support because you don't want the bag crushing in on it, right? So I basically turn it into a hard box on my back that I then line
+
+[4:07] with, with tablecloths that are fluffed up. Then I lay the tomatoes carefully in. And then I stand on my bike the entire way home to provide the extra shock absorbing power of
+
+[4:18] my legs. And unlike my normal riding posture, which is kind of forward leaning angry, I'm riding fully erect, like some sort of a Dutch person.
+
+[4:28] And, uh, And I'm hindered by these people, like, all of a sudden, like making me, like, slam on the brakes. Like, I'm just trying to get my tomatoes home. I'm not having fun. This is not fun. I'm not out here. Like, you know what? It's like no one drives anymore. Just, hey, I'm going to take a leisurely drive out in the mountains. He's not here. You know what I mean? You're riding fully erect. You know, you know, listen, gooey duck face. Like, uh, you know, you love the innuendo on the show, but I mean, I'm just trying to, you know, you're making us all picture this. I'm just trying to get straight. whatever. Uh, calling your questions two. 718-4972128 That's 718-497-2128, so we can hear your cooking or other questions here live on the cooking issues radio program or
+
+[5:14] joined, as usual, with Jack in the engineering booth. You've already heard from Nastasia Hammer Lopez, but we've already got, we've also got Eliza, Eliza, right? Eliza from, by the way, Double Duty, lady, does Mofad work as well. You did one or 2 of the puffing guns, right? And you also did the, uh... You only did the round tables. You never came to the puffing gun. Maker fair. Yeah, the round tables, by the way, they're fun. You done all, we did 2 or three, three. did three, right? I did three. I did two. Did Tim? yeah Which ones? The 1st and the second. So that would be GMOs. GMOs and soda. Oh, soda. soda is a good one. So, you know, I really, whatever the last one was, I'm trying to remember what it was. It was good. Oh, big business. Big business and food. Business, food. Big business, spin and cheese. All right, so we got, you know, that'd be, that'd be better. Like, that's how you, like, as much as I listen to, like, all the old school rap stuff. Now how much I love it. Like, the older I get, I've had this discussion on the earth. Man, I won't go too deep into it, but pimping, being a pimp is disgusting. It's like freaking vile. It's like the worst thing you can do is to be a pimp. And yet, you know, how many years of, you know, you walk around and be like, big pimp, spin and cheese. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's ridiculous. Like women will walk around. Using the word pimp, like, it's okay. What do you think about this, Jack? not okay. Pimping, pimping not okay. Pimping not okay. Yeah, yeah. Pimping ain't easy? Like being hoard out, not easy. Yeah, really. Where did you get to that? What? Oh, because you said big business. And then I said big, big business spending cheese, like on BLADs up in NYC, which, you know, I don't think that's his finest
+
+[6:54] song, by the way. No. No. 99 problems. Also, questionable, but like amazing song. 99 problems, amazing song. Anyways. Stas is more up on the Beyonce breakup, the potential Beyonce breakup. You watch that stuff, Constantly Stas. The Beyonce breakup or your mom hasn't called you about that yet? Guys. All right, food, food, food. We're better than this. Better than better than Beyonce? I highly doubt it. Yes. What about early Beyonce? What about Destiny's Child Beyonce? I don't know about that. We have 9 questions. All right, jeez. 99 questions. Beyoncé one. Oh, boom. Boom. Dear Dave Anastasia. This is from Mark spelled CK. I like the CK. It's not like Mark with a C, not Mark with a K. You got both. You can afford both of those letters at the end of your name. Mark. Uh, like Merc index, right? isn't that how they spell it? Mark? Anyways. When I make sauces slash soups in a blender, and there are onions in there. I get a weird metallic slash. I'm using the slash, whatever. Metallic slash bitter taste. It's like the taste you get when you chop onions in a food processor. I forgot about it, but then I tasted the same thing in a restaurant. On the internets. I found that tomato seeds might be the problem. Can you tell me why that why that happens, and is there anything one can do about it? Kind regards, Mark. Well, in typical mental tangent form, this
+
+[8:16] should just show you, people. I want you guys to know this. that the tangents don't just happen when I'm here talking, the tangents happen when I'm literally reading your question because reading it aloud, I just
+
+[8:29] realize I, uh, um, didn't see the tomato seed. thing. I only saw the 1st portion of your question. And so that's all I can respond to because it is something that I know that chopping onions with, for instance, carbon steel blades. And we've talked about this on a show. I think it was a couple years ago, that when you when you chop onions with carbon, steel, knives, you get this kind of horrendous, metallic taste. And the reason is well-known fact, well-known, that, um, it's a well-known fact that, uh,
+
+[9:00] alliums, onion, uh, being an allium, uh, have lots of things that react with, uh, iron and other metallic, uh, they form complexes with iron and other metals. Which is why, and I think we talked about this. Remember they sell those deodorizers, some guns, those stainless steel hand deodorizer things. don't think they sell them anymore because I don't think they really work because those are made of stainless steel. Stainless steel not nearly as effective at complexing with allium compounds as good old-fashioned carbon steel because it's been passivated
+
+[9:31] with it, you know, an anticrosion layer on the front. But this is why I was saying that like, if you're trying to get onion smell off of your hands, things like steel wool, things that rust might be a
+
+[9:40] good, a good thing to try. Um, I think that's what I said. It's been a couple of years since we did. Anyways. Uh, so my assumption is, is that you're getting some sort of a uh, thing of a crap with the, um, with the carbon steel, uh, and by the way, you know, there are lots of
+
+[9:57] things. I don't know whether this is related to the flavor, but because alliums, onions, garlic, all these are extremely complex. Uh, and so, you know, one of the things that provides that kind of off color is a, um, a series of uh, of pigments called uh,
+
+[10:11] anthosanthins, not anthocyanins, anthosanthins. And they're also things that make potatoes turn dark when you cut them. You know, when you cut a potato, and you don't soak it in water because you're a low quality person, and you let it sit out there and it turns like pink and then
+
+[10:26] brown, and then that brown color doesn't go away when you cook it. So when anyone ever looks at your potato, they can be, oh, this person is a jerk. They don't care about the food. They serving me. They don't care about quality and they can't observe day-to-day things and they don't learn from existence. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's okay if I saw that at someone's house and be like, wow. So you've never cooked a potato before. You know what I mean? Like, because, like, it's obvious. Jack, you sliced a potato, am I right? I mean, yeah. Not well, but. Well, I mean, look, there's, it's one thing to have bad knife skills. This is entirely acceptable. It's another thing to not notice that potatoes turn into crap when you let them sit out. When they're cut. Whatever. Yeah, duh. Uh, sunny news. So, uh, tomato seeds, the only thing I could think of offhand, and this is probably wrong because I think of hand, maybe you could search. You want to search some tomato seas? Um, is that the uh, increased acidity is uh, causing more reaction with the uh, with the blades,
+
+[11:24] because uh, my feeling is, is that a lot of those blades are made out of like 304, which is, you know, slightly
+
+[11:30] rustible uh, I think they're not really made of really high quality. You'd think they'd be made of some sort of like wizard steel, but they're not. I think they're mainly made out of 316 and 304. But I don't know. look into it, Mark. Anyway, now we got a follow-up question. EMM wrote in a while back on making sugar-free ice cream. And what I said was, why do you want be sugar-free? Do you want it to taste sugar-free? or do you merely want it to be sugar-free? and for what reason do you want it to be sugar-free? Well, okay. So he or she wrote back because I can't remember and EMM is completely genderless, right? Unless it's Emma, which is not Emma. EMM. All capitals. Thanks for addressing my question on the air. The reason I asked is once or twice a week. I get requests for sugar-free desserts, mostly from diabetics styles. Can you do a Wilfred Brimley invitation? No. No? Will for Brimley, anyone, Jack? Will for Brimley? Nope. You know what I'm talking about, though. I don't. I'm Will for Brimley, and I got diabetes. He's the guy who he's like the spokesperson. Yeah, no, I know the commercial. Yeah, he's he's like the spokesperson for like taking care of your diabetes, but he doesn't pronounce it diabetes. He pronounced it diabetes. With the mustache. Yeah, with a giant mustache. Wilver Brimley and I've got diabetes, Bittes. And so, like, we used to walk around, like, we still do it. Booker and Daxon once in a while I just go, Bittis, Bittis, because like, I forget who it was. It wasn't Nick. It was someone I know. Oh, Leo Robachek from Nomad. We were hanging around at Nomad and EMP and, you know, fantastic bar man. Like, he got served a drink once. I had way too much sugar at Tales of the Cocktail, just tasting and
+
+[13:06] goes, diabetes. And that's all he said. That is diabetes. That's what he said, anyway. I'm not sure about, okay, wait. I know having a pan of sugar-free gelato would not sell much out of the display case, but we offer catering gallon sizes. I'd like to see someone tuck into a gallon sized container of gelato. rough, man. Think about that. A gallon. A gallon. That would be, that's not, that's not 4 pints. That's 4 freaking quarts. That's 8 pint containers of ice cream, folks. That is a boat ton of ice cream. Let me tell you something, people with diabetes ordering this catering size gallon of ice cream. You do not have the ability as an individual human being to consume a gallon of ice cream before it goes bad. you do, you got issues. If it's for a party? That's fine. I'm just saying it's a lot of ice cream. People, I think... What? So I could take down a half gallon. Before it goes bad? Yeah, that thing is fine. I think the maximum quantity of ice cream you should buy is probably a half gallon for home use in a normal situation because you want to store ice cream in your freezer as little as possible. Most home freezers, like they open and close a lot and they go through defrost cycles and all these kinds of
+
+[14:15] things so that they're not good for the long-term storage of ice cream. You know, plus people put things that aren't frozen in them, which drops the temperature of the freezer, and then you get recrystallization problems. And so, I mean, you can always get incredibly highly stabilized ice cream. Like, did you guys notice recently that Briars ice cream past like 5 years has started putting stabilizers in their ice cream? Because everyone realized that Briars was good if you live right near Philadelphia and you could get the
+
+[14:36] Briars, like, right when it was made? And then like, a week later, it sucked and once you opened it in your fridge, it turned into like Briars ice crystals instead of Briars ice cream. And so back when I was a kid, they used to have advertisements like little kids with lisps. I don't know why people think that like kids with lisps are like the, you know, the Cinequan non of purity in Americana, but they were like, this kid's reading off like nothing wrong with
+
+[14:58] lisps. I'm just saying, like, why it has to be. It always has to be. It came with a lisp. know what I mean? And, uh, and so he's reading off the ingredients, he can pronounce them, and then he's reading off the ingredients, another ice cream, and he's like,
+
+[15:07] kamik. I don't remember exactly, but it's like reading off like Carragin and Aguaro scrap and like Briars doesn't have any of this stuff. And secretly, they added all that crap to it because you know what? It makes the ice cream better. anyway, that's not what we're talking about. Okay, I'm not sure about diabetics and the sugar is naturally found in fruit. I did a quick search and red on the American diabetes association website that, yes, diabetics should eat fruit, but do not specify how much or what kinds are safe slash not safe. I guess I would like to accommodate these requests one day with an artificially sweetened vanilla flavor, not using our Madagascar vanilla
+
+[15:36] extract as sugar is an ingredient, or maybe chocolate. Some information. We use a Carpagani, LB202. I've never used that one. I used a smaller, the LB 100 batch freezer, pre-gel base, and stabilizers, whole milk,
+
+[15:48] sugar, and corn syrup, plus as many local fruits as we can get our hands on throughout the seasons.
+
+[15:52] Thanks again. Cheers, EMM. Okay, look it. First of all, uh, I think a lot depends on a lot depends on who you're dealing with, right? So, like, an actual, like, person who
+
+[16:08] is, like, diabetic who knows about, you know, what's going on is not gonna, if you eat fruit, PS, you're eating sugar. Duh, right? And fruits have all of the same sugars in them that we normally associate with sugary things. So they have fructose. They have glucose, and they also have sucrose in them, right? It's just the question of how much. So, like, someone who has, like, the trick with diabetes, and I don't really know that much because, you know, I don't have anyone in my family, it's diabetic, and I'm not diabetic. But as far as I can tell, the trick isn't eliminating all sugar, the trick is managing the amount of sugar you get so that you don't have a spike in your blood sugar level, which is
+
+[16:46] why people focus on the glycemic index of certain foods, including carbohydrates. What can spike your blood sugar levels of glucose quickly or what causes it to spike because that's what's going to cause problems for diabetics? That's it. Uh, so, so for instance, you could uh, up the fructose, which is sweeter than sucrose, right? And also had, not only is it sweeter than glucose, sucrose, rather, but it also has a lower glycemic index. So you can radically lower the glycemic index of something like an ice cream by sweetening it primarily with fructose as opposed to sucrose. Um, and we'll go into that in a second. But the point is that you can do that. Now the flip side of that is, is that you can't, no one writes,
+
+[17:32] like no one writes on on a, uh, on a label, right?
+
+[17:37] This food has a glycemic index of 23. You know what I mean? Like no one writes that on it. Instead, they just write sugar free or whatever. And so, and then like someone who actually cares about this stuff has to base their their information on whether something is sugar free. So you could have an ice cream that would be fine for someone who has diabetes to have a moderate amount
+
+[17:56] of, not a gallon. But, you know, a moderate amount of that is flavored with fructose, but then you couldn't write sugar-free on it. You could write sucrose free, right? That's kind of weasly, right? So then what people do, uh, other, when they don't do that is they'll add a texturizing agent and then they'll add some sort of fake
+
+[18:17] sugar, like Splenda. You know, it's like also you say you can't use the real vanilla because it's got sugar in it, even though you're using probably a fairly small amount of that vanilla, right?
+
+[18:26] And it contains, it's not, I would guess it's not the main amount of sugar that's in your
+
+[18:31] recipe. coming from the vanilla. I bet you don't have to alter the sugar balance of your recipe that much based on the vanilla you're using. I could be wrong because I don't know the vanilla that you're using. My point is that you run into a situation a lot where in order to do the right thing by a customer, you have to do the wrong thing by a customer. In order to try and help the customer by giving something that they can enjoy, you have to actually ruin it by turning it into
+
+[18:53] crap, by using ingredients that are bad, even though there could be some sort of middle base thing that they could, you know, have instead. So, uh, that said, what I recommend that you do, because remember, you're playing with a couple of variables
+
+[19:05] here. You're playing with the taste, which is the sugar, right? With sweetness, rather. You're dealing with the glycemic index, which is how much the product is going to spike blood sugar levels. And then, and by the way, you can add things that are not sugars, for instance,
+
+[19:20] sugar, alcohols, and other things like this that do have an effect on people's could possibly have an effect on people's glycemic index, although I don't think
+
+[19:27] much, actually. I think sugar alcohols have that much of an effect on a glycemic index. I not sure that they can make give you the runs, whatever. Anyways. And you're also working with the texture because sugars lower the freezing point depression of ice cream
+
+[19:39] base, and that's how they do things like that's one of the reasons why ice cream has the right textures. If you increase your sugar, then you decrease, you increase the softness of an ice cream at a particular dipping temperature.
+
+[19:52] And if you decrease the sugar, you make it consequently harder. So the ultimate website to go to on this is www.dairyscience.info, which is the University of Guelphs run by Professor Douglas Goff, his website on dairy
+
+[20:09] science. Specifically, I would look at 2 articles. One is called the science of gold in quotes, Goldilocks Ice Cream, and that's, I guess, you know, just right. You know what I mean? And they had they go into how to calculate freezing point depression, right? So then you're going to need to go and look on any a number of websites that'll give you glycemic indexes to things. But you want to shoot for a specific freezing point depression and then shoot for a specific glycemic index. And things you can use other than sugar to depress. So if you're using Splenda, and you're using maybe one of the sugar alcohols
+
+[20:42] that, and you can read up its specific freezing point depression ratio compared with sugar, right? So if you know that you want a sweetness relative to, let's
+
+[20:51] say, 14 to 15% by weight in a batch of sugar. That the sweetness of it you're shooting for. You're looking for a sweetness index similar to that, right? And then you're looking for, and then you rate that also as a freezing point of one, sugar, right? Then you're looking to find other ingredients that add up to that. And the instructions and equations are all on university of Guelph's website. So you can add alcohol, which lowers the freezing point, in addition to some sugar alcohols, and then an artificial sweetener, like splendor, should you have to do that, although I highly recommend fructose. Problem with fructose, by the way, people. Aside from the fact that it is an actual sugar, and that you would have to write it on the label as such, and that some people who are, you know, in advocacy for diabetics, don't advocate fructose because they believe it has other problems, even though they all recognize that it has a much lower glycemic
+
+[21:37] index, and therefore it's better from that standpoint. There's a bunch of studies and the research isn't exactly clear yet. I don't even know what I was saying. fructose, alcohol, a little bit of salt. So alcohol can be used to balance out the whatever freezing point depression you don't get when you're adding fructose you can get with alcohol. Anyhoo, that's my ¢18 on that. Good Goldilocks, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, nice. Good caller. Oh... Oh, color. yes, caller. on the air. Hello, Dave. Howdy. Hey, uh, Sean from Palo Alto. Oh, how you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. Um, I just had a question about I'm trying to make some Zabion and ISI, right? Um, and, uh, doesn't really work. And I was wondering if you had any pointers. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. So let me see whether I know what's happening. It looks foamy and then it breaks after like 3 minutes and turns into like a very liquidy soup in the bottom of your
+
+[22:32] bowl. Yeah correct. Yeah. You haven't heated it enough. So one of the things with Zabayon is, and I've never made it in the in the EC. I always do it on a stovetop, like old school, you know, like sugar, the egg yolks, white wine, whip it, you know,
+
+[22:46] cook it. Yeah, and so you're sitting there and you're whipping it with a whisk, right? And you think it's fluffy and you're incredibly worried that you're going to curdle it and you're going to make it taste bad because you're going
+
+[22:55] to overheat the egg yolks. And so you get, what happens is it starts building texture based on the aeration that you're giving it with the whisk, not based on the fact that you've cooked the egg yolk
+
+[23:07] enough. And then as soon as it cools down, it loses its structure and turns back into a liquid again, you've lost
+
+[23:13] the texture. The problem is you haven't heated it enough. So you can, you can heat it, creme anglaise style, and a zippy with a circulator. I'm assuming since you live in Palo Alto, you have 10 immersion circulators, are you one of those? I do have one. Yeah, all right. So, you know, like, unless what's the, there's East Palo Alto and Palo Alto, right, Stas? Yeah, I don't remember. You don't remember? Isn't East Palo? She went to Stanford. Yeah, she went to Stanford, but she, I guess, never left campus. no connection with that place anymore. That place anymore. Wow. Well, people who went to Stanford generally just forget about East Palo Alto anyway. Yeah, anyways. But so my my my impression of people who live in in the in the non-Eastern section of Palo Alto is that they all have kind of immersion circulators.
+
+[23:58] But anyways, the, you know, what, I mean, you know, whatever, it's a stereotyping people based on the tech industry, I guess. But, uh, so you could do the, do you do it in immersion circulator and what temperature do you use? So I did it at 65. Oh, yeah, way too low. Way too low. Way too low because when you add sugar to an egg yolk or liquids like wine or acids to an egg yolk or salt to an egg yolk.
+
+[24:23] You radically increase a temperature at which it starts thickening. So I don't have a particular temperature for zabayon, but just for an FYI, creme anglaise. Now, admittedly, there's a lot of liquid in a creme anglaise more so than in probably in a Sabaillon. So like my, my, and I've given it before, but my specific creme anglaise recipe, just as in FYI, is 500 milk, 500 cream, 10 extra large egg yolks, 170 grams
+
+[24:52] sugar plus flavoring, like vanilla and salt. So that cooks at 82 Celsius. for like, for like 15 minutes. So the, and and by the way, once you reach a temperature at which egg yolks are going to start to thicken, they tend to continue to thicken in custody and on
+
+[25:09] glazy and and zabayon style bases. They tend to continue to thicken over time, but beyond, they won't break as long as they don't go higher than whatever the full setting temperature of the protein is at that dilution and
+
+[25:21] that and that ion level. But they will take on eggy notes as they cook longer. So like a creme anglaise, it's cooked for 10, 15 minutes at 82 is great. One that's cooked for 20 starts having a little bit of an eggy aroma, especially when it's warm. So I would experiment with much higher temperatures, something like somewhere like, again, I don't know how much wine you're adding, but you could try 82 for 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes.
+
+[25:47] Remember, it's in a bag, make sure it's agitated so that it stirs itself. Uh, and then, um, see whether that is enough, or if it's too much, if it starts tasting curdled and you start getting little like curds in it, then you drop the temperature. Let me tell you one thing. This is a secret I learned from many years ago from one and
+
+[26:05] Rochus's book, sous vide, you know, the original one, the one from Spanish that was translated into English in like 2001 or whatever it is. When you pull the
+
+[26:15] anglaise mix from the circulator, it will look lumpy. Throw it onto a counter and smack it around with your hands so that it breaks it up and it will be smooth as
+
+[26:27] silk. No problems. The other thing is, is that you can, as long, if you have a vacuum machine, this is
+
+[26:32] actually, uh, really good. If you don't have a vacuum machine to it lightly, you can blend it such that you don't have to worry about the kalaza as well. Because otherwise you would normally have to strain the zavillon to get rid of any trace of Halaza before you served it. But if you if you quickly pulse it in a Vita Prep. You can, uh, or pulse an invider prep, just like I do with an anglaise base. As long as you don't overwhip it, you can break up the halazi and you don't need to strain it to get rid of any other particles. And I don't know how Palo Alto. You are, but that means you also have a vitaprep to go to circulator. Not that Palo, not that. Well, someday we'll all be that Palo Alto. But anyway, so but like a light blending can help get rid of that. The only issue is if you don't have a vacuum machine. A lot of excess air in the bag can lead to, I think, off flavors.
+
+[27:20] So, for instance, I, I, you know, most things I say are as good in a Ziploc as they are in a vacuum bag,
+
+[27:26] creme anglaise is not one of them. It's still good in a Ziploc. And if I had never had it in a, it's like side by side tasted, like an anglaise done in a, in a ziploc versus
+
+[27:33] on glazed done in a vacuum bag, I'd probably say that they're identical, but they're just not.
+
+[27:38] The one in the vacuum bag is a little bit better. And I think that's because there's no air involved in it. So if you, if you, you could, then not use a, you could put all the ingredients in a zippy, exclude the air without using a blender, like kind of smash it up on
+
+[27:51] the counter by hand, make sure it's fully mixed and distributed, maybe give the, the yolks like a little bit of a forking to break them all up before you add it, uh, and then you could strain it
+
+[28:00] afterwards, and that would probably be, uh, and or, you know, strain it and whip it, you know, afterwards to get the kind of texture that you want.
+
+[28:07] Anyway, some combination of those things should work, but I believe it's the temperature that was your problem. Okay. And then I could also probably serve that cold after assuming that works, like in the whipper. Do you see any problem with that? Oh, no. once you function, once you once you get the egg yolks to the right temperature, they're they're good. Then, you know, as long as they're not too thick, you should be able to put it out through
+
+[28:28] your uh, through your whipper. Like depends on how thick you've gone, but usually it stays into a light pourable consistency. And then the only trick is I usually, when I'm doing things that are thick, or if I'm doing fluid gels, I just put my finger over the tip of the whipper and snap it down towards the head before I dispense just to make sure that I'm not, you know, just blasting nitrous out without getting the product
+
+[28:50] out. You know what I mean? But she'll work. Yeah, definitely. She'll refine it. should hold a lot better. Oh yeah, definitely. Ain't no problem. Oh, also, wait, if you mix it if you mix the stuff beforehand, right, you should be able to pressurize it in the ISI and just cook it in the circulator at the
+
+[29:07] ISI, swirling it occasionally. Not going to guarantee it, but it should work. You mean pressurize the SSI then put it in the bath? Yeah. You don't have to pressurize it beforehand. You could probably do it unpressurized and pressurize it after you chill it, but it should work. In other words, you might be able to get around not having the bag by doing it
+
+[29:26] in ISI. It's a thug. I like that idea. Yeah. Give it a shot list. As long as you don't have a thermal whip. Now, let us know how it works out. Okay, cool. Yeah, well, thanks a lot. No problem. I have a 2nd call. All right, cool. Squeeze it before the break. Yeah, squeezy. Squeeze. Call her. on the air. Hey, Dave Arnold, this is Martine from Peoria, Illinois. Oh, how you doing? Uh, pretty good. So what I've been thinking about is I'm trying to find a way to infuse my basting butter.
+
+[29:55] Uh, what I wanted to see is, is there a possible temperature that I could keep butter in a circulator with aromatics without the butter separating,
+
+[30:06] to therefore potentially in the kitchen have a different basting butter for each
+
+[30:11] protein? Oh, yeah. Or would there not be flavor temperature? Would it break? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're going to break. So you want to, you want to do like a compound butter using a
+
+[30:25] circulator but never have it melt? To not separate milk solid. So when I'm basing with it, I can still keep the solids and I can still form the caramelized flavors later, but also to
+
+[30:37] not have the chunks of just making a straight up compound butter, which could potentially burn in the pan. Yeah. That's an interesting problem. Let me see. I just moved, so I haven't gotten a chance to experiment at all yet, but that's why I'm calling and asking. Yeah, that's a good problem. Let me think about this. You know what I would do? Uh, I would, I, and I see if this can be done. So. The question
+
+[31:07] is, can you refunctionalize the milk proteins? So, like, the interesting thing to do would be to clarify the butter, right? Save the milk solids, right? Measure how much water you've boiled off during the clarification process. Flavor the butter, flavor of the butter, the butter fat, strain it. and then somehow recreate the butter from that. So I don't know if that's possible. Here's how, here's a way there's possible. If you made your own butter, you could just save that, uh, no, it's not gonna have all of it because it's gonna be, I don't know whether that, whether, I mean, I'm sure it's possible. I've turned melted butter back into cream before using an ultrasonic homogenizer. So I know that I know it's possible to turn butter back to cream. Uh, has a little bit of an off flavor, but uh, not a lot. Hmm. And I don't know that I don't know that... I don't know, for instance, that keeping butter in a bag in a circulator, Okay, so here's another thing. You could put like a circulator in a walk. I used to do this with oysters. You put a circulator in a walk-in, you said it at 60. You know what I mean? Or 65. Something that's not quite hot enough to melt butter in the bag and maybe you get better penetration. Like maybe you keep enough, uh, uh, enough solidity so that the butter holds its shape and doesn't break, but that you get better penetration
+
+[32:40] of the flavors. That's another way to do it. Or like a wine cooler. You know, if you have a wine cooler or a wine fridge, is to vacuum bag it with the butter and a wine fridge,
+
+[32:50] uh, or like I say, in a circulator underwater at a fixed temperature in a walk-in, which works very well, I mean, it's kind of a little waste, but
+
+[32:57] it works very well. Just keep it below the temperature at which the butter is fully going to break and melt out. Uh, you know, like at a soft temperature range, like maybe in like, what do you think, 70, something like this? And Fahrenheit. And then, um, and then cold chill it to
+
+[33:13] resolidify it, you know, totally and then peel off the aromatics or scrape them off of the outside. It might be worth a shot. Yeah, well, I'm gonna work on it, and if I figure anything, I don't know, I'll send you a tweet or something. Yeah, please do. All right, thank you. good luck with it. And let's take a break and come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[33:38] Boido Pastors is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected Red Meat Abattoir, Oslaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected
+
+[33:56] poultry Abattoir, a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, White Oakpastures.com. You know, Jack, I've always so enamored of the way he says
+
+[34:31] abattoir, that like, I haven't listened to the rest of it, but he's like, from Miami. All right. That's like the end of the country going south, all the way to Princeton. Princeton. Hello? That's south of here. What are we, in the freaking Arctic? Like, he's like, New York? No crap on them. They don't deserve the products of my USDA inspected abattoir. It's a pretty good voice. Why don't passes? I mean, that's cool. That's good. I like I love the way like I would eat any kind of poultry that man sells based on the way he says poultry. Give me some poultry. When you can queue it up. I know it's like. Yeah, yeah. maybe we'll surprise you later. Yeah, just like poetry. poetry. love that. But now I feel insulted. He hates New Yorkers. He's like, Princeton? Okay. New York? crap on those people, right? Anyways, uh... Red meat, abattoir. Ah, it's so strong. It's so strong. Okay. Hey, and we had another butter. Well, let me do Michael Knack. Michael Nackin wrote in about the uh, the question of using, using the uh, the
+
+[35:33] Suz Veed and the circulator with, um, remember that guy that we uh, had in the
+
+[35:38] class and he would only pronounce it Suz Veed? And he was all he cared about was pickled onions, the onions, the onions. Remember this? Oh my god. Suz Vied. I swear to God. He's in a class with Mills and I for like 2 or 3 days straight. And like he hears us saying sous vide. Like, like, 200, 300 times a day. You know what I mean? The difference between sous vide and low temperature, sous vide, sous vide, vacuum, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, sous vide, up until the very end
+
+[36:05] of the class. Okay. Uh, this is for Michael Nakkin. Which is one of our favorite vegetarian cooks, when you say? You know, Eddie Shepard, Michael Nackin. Does anyone else write in with the vegetarian? They're the people that we know. Anyway, one in the UK, one in the US. And like very far separated, right? So you got your West Coast, Michael Nackin. He's west coast. not Boston, right? Isn't he over there in the Seattle area? Anyways, so it's like, you know, they're kind of antipodal vegetarian chef's name. Right? Okay. Just heard Eddie Shepherd's call. Here's an updated version of my note on sous vide and vegetables and circulators and vegetables. Um, Okay. Oh, by the way, he says, sorry I missed a question a couple of weeks ago about SUV vegetables. I got hooked on a 28 episode Yale lecture series about the Civil War. Oh, better now. Now you shafted me, Michael. Stas, like, always says that I'm going to, like, throw away all this food stuff and just go to do a
+
+[36:57] Civil War. Like, so, because, like, freaking David Wundridge made me read Shelby Foote's, you know, 8000000000 word, like, 3 volume thing on, uh, on the Civil War, which took, you know, forever, like, so many visits to the
+
+[37:09] hopper to read that Shelby Foot thing, so much hopper reading. And now you got me hooked on it. I'm assuming you're referring to Professor Blight's Civil War 28 lecture
+
+[37:17] series because I had to look it up when I saw this. And now I'm sure I'm going to go down to like a 28 lecture K-hole thanks to you and Stas is going to have to like going to torture me about Civil War forever. You know, we were going to buy a grist mill in Herndon, Virginia that was for sale that was like totally falling apart. It was so cheap because like my, my dream is to like, whenever like New York's getting me down, it's to like leave it all behind and just have my own water wheel and just like whenever anyone pisses me off, it's
+
+[37:43] just, the water wheel, you know what I mean? Like someone calls me with some irritating thing and she saw I got flick on the water to like open the raceway and grind some stuff. You know what I mean? Anyways, gristmills. They sold the gristmill. And then someone was selling a gristmill in Virginia. You're not on it because you don't really want it. Well, that's not the case. It's not the case. Stas looks at me the other day because we I sent the guy an email. him and a guy in Vermont. I said, have you sold your gristmills yet? And they said, yes, and Stas looks at me without missing a beat and goes, some other dude is living your life for you. It's not, it's not right. Anyways, uh, Okay, uh, back to Michael Nackin. I think that the list you made of vegetarian applications for SUV was pretty amazing, and I agree. Well thank you. I agree with you that eggs alone are a good enough reason to own a circulator. And by the way, have you seen a CV'd egg calculator that Doug Baldwin and I built on the
+
+[38:39] www. chefsfs.chefsteps.com. That's chefsf.com. Yes, I've seen it. Uh, it's good. I like it. Yeah. And I love what Eddie Shepard said too. Those mushroom burgers are baller. I can tell you from personal experience. I agree with you that in general, precise temperature control isn't that necessary with typical vegetables. And that bagging to retain or add flavor is the bigger advantage, although the kitchen team at Chef Steps has done some work that shows that 85 Celsius gives you better color than 95 Celsius for things like asparagus.
+
+[39:07] So there's some upside in there and not having to manage a stovetop
+
+[39:12] simmer, too, carefully that said, I don't bust out the circulator for veg on a daily basis. Actually, I'm more likely to use the microwave in many cases. But besides all the ideas you mentioned, some other vegetarian uses I enjoy is kanji. There's a kanji recipe. So he does the kanji in the bag. Also, by the way, beans. I never got it right, but beans in the bag. I don't know if I mentioned this, is similar to like, how do you say flask in Italian status? Have you forgotten your Italian already? It's something like, like, fiasco. something like beans a la fiasco, like Fagioli a la fiasco or something like that. I love it because it sounds like it's a fiasco. But that's where you put the beans and the oil and if you're a fiasco? Yeah. and like the Tennessee? Uh, and the rosemary and whatever in the in the bottle, you put it in the oven, you cook it, blah. Good. And you had to shake the beans out of the bottle. No one knows what I'm talking about here, seriously? Okay. And that would be a good application, but you got to get the, you got to get the water level right, and the water level for a bean depends a lot on how old the beans are and how dry they are and what kind of bean it is, which is why it's a difficult
+
+[40:10] recipe. But anyways, Michael's got a recipe for a kanji there. I love kanji, who doesn't love kanji. Do you like kanji stars? Oh. Surprise. Good. For a shiitake kanji and a challenge. on the herbivoracious site. And also where Michael wants to infuse a lot of flavor, as in his Sichuan cauliflower, also on herbivoracious.com from 2013, Sichuan
+
+[40:39] Spicy Cauliflower Recipe.HTML. Um, Anyway, there you go. Right? Okay. Now, let's get some questions. Andrew Hunter wrote in. I have a question for cooking issues about pigments. You like that word pigment? Not really. No? You don't hate it. Like you hate fungus. Or spore. Uh, I have a question about, I think pigment sounds gross. pigment. I like pigs. Anyway, in wine. For an event, I want to figure out a way to serve clear wine. Is there any way I could possibly remove pigments from wine without substantially altering the taste slash
+
+[41:14] mouthfeel? I don't know a ton about the relevant chemistry, but my preliminary research on the Wikipedia. It suggests a lot of, a lot of the same phenols, the color of the wine also provide wine like flavors.
+
+[41:24] So I'm pretty doubtful that this is feasible, but I figured I'd ask, failing that, is there a good way? I could fake it. Flavor isolates that aren't colored plus watered down neutral spirits. The quality of the final product doesn't have to be particularly great. If I essentially get 2 buck chucked that looks like water. By the way, you see the 2 buck Chuck article, there's an article on, I think it's on the Huffington
+
+[41:42] Post about like how nasty, I think it is, unlike how nasty 2 buck Chuck is in terms of like that there's like
+
+[41:47] mice that they just scrape up everything, including like mice and like rodents and rats and whatever and bugs and
+
+[41:53] spiders, and you just throw them all in the fermenting vats because that's how it's 2 bucks because they just like, you know, everything gets fermented.
+
+[41:59] And I was, and, and like they were like horrified by it. I'm like, yeah, that's how that that rolls. That's $2 wine. That's $2 wine. You've purchased wine that is $2. And there's no like transfer of bacteria or anything. You're fermenting it. You're something that do the hell out of it. And then they filter it. There's no hair or anything. It's like, it's, it's $2 wine. Anyway, uh, 2 buck chuck. If I essentially get 2 buck chuck, that looks like water. I can work with that. He also bought unusable land because the quality of the grapes isn't high, so he's just like
+
+[42:31] growing like super high yield land that just is like mega yield of grapes. The guy's name is, I think, Shaw. Forget it. And he just has like 8000000000 acres of this like incredibly high yield land that produces shitty grapes and also produces against rats and mice. It just scrapes them into a fermentation bucket and says, go. Ferment, 2 buck, 2 buck, miracle, and it's all vertically integrated, so he doesn't have to pay anyone. You know what I mean? And then I was like, you know what, though? Like, people Where is the land? Somewhere in California, somewhere in Cal- like somewhere in California. Uh, and it's uh, but it's, it's like people like have no problem drinking really crappy beer, but they're horrified at the practices of the 2 buck truck.
+
+[43:10] Whatever. Two book chook. Um, I can work with that. Just has to be drinkable and make people say that's wine. Uh, seems like a long shot, but I figured I'd ask. PS few years ago, I randomly walked into Booker and Dax looking for a quick cocktail with a friend. I'd never heard of the bar before and no idea what I was getting into. It was one of the best surprises I've ever had. Thanks so much for the great drinks. I particularly loved the Thai basil daiquiri. Well, thank you. Mr. Hunter. So here's what I have to say. Yeah, you're not going to be able to get an actual good flavor without stripping a lot of
+
+[43:41] the, you know, a lot of the characteristics for the wine. If you don't care that you are going to be ruining the wine. You can look into activated carbon. So, and listen, activated carbon is an incredibly complicated subject, right? So for a primer, like a fairly opinionated primer, but just for a quick primer on
+
+[44:00] how activated charcoals and carbons are made and what the differences between them are. Go to www.homedistiller.org, uh, and look for activated carbon for purification of alcohol by Gert Strand, uh, from
+
+[44:15] Malamo, Sweden, who does not want you to reproduce uh, his, uh, his, what do you think, Gert? his her work in any form. It's all copy, whatever. But it talks about it. Because, like, there's various ways you can make activated carbon. You can use heat. um, like, uh, this chemical process, their steam process, and they have different structures, and then depending on what the substrate was, coconut husks or whatever, they make it out
+
+[44:43] of the, the properties are very different. It all has to do with the surface area, the theoretical surface area of the carbon, how it's been ground or milled down, and whether it contains mainly
+
+[44:53] macropores, mesopores, or micropores, because what you're filtering out has to have a smaller size. Sorry, the pores have to be, you know, the same size or larger as the ones, but not too much as the stuff you're trying to filter out. So there's 1000000000s of different, not billions. There's many kinds of activated carbon for different things. I suggest going to nor it. Uh, that's, uh, I don't have the website here, but Norrit is a brand of activated, uh, charcoal. In fact, someone sent a tweet to me on this and there's them actually decolorizing wine. There's literally a photo on the internet or a video on the internet of Norrit, N-O-R-I-T, brand, one of the Norrit brands of activated carbon being stirred into wine and then filtered through coffee, regular filter paper
+
+[45:32] slash, you know, that's a coffee filter. Uh, fancy coffee filter, to pull out all of the uh, uh, carbon and stuff's
+
+[45:40] clear, went from red wine to white wine, no problem. It's completely non-toxic. It's going to strip a lot of aroma is the problem, but it will still probably taste like wine. So you see if you can get a sample. A lot of big companies will send out a sample or you could try other brands of activated carbon. He's got to try to find whatever is similar to that so that it has it or just experiment with it. Remember, this is also the way the color is removed from aged rum.
+
+[46:01] So most a lot of white rums are aged. Most white rums are not Ray and nephew, but like most white rums are aged and then stripped of color using a charcoal filtration technique. Now, if you want to go really baller on it, I'm not saying you do, but if you want to go really baller on it, what I would do is put the wine in a rotary evaporator, distill all the alcohol and volatiles off of it, save it, then decolorize the water base with an activated
+
+[46:23] charcoal because it's going to pull mainly color, but won't strip a lot of volatiles, then re-add them and dilute them back to proof. But that's a pain in that. If you're willing to use 2 buck chuck for this. I'm going to make a little leap and say that you don't need to go and use a roto app to do this kind of thing. What do you think, Stuff? Yeah, agree. Yeah. Okay, so try that. I wouldn't try using, like, if you if you shift the acidity of it, because they're at the sign and pigments. You can make it colorless by adding a bunch of sodium hydroxide to it, but in no
+
+[46:50] case, you drink that. Yeah. Okay. That time. Ah, my ah, geez, come on, really? Well, you know. Ah, man. All right. I'll give a little shout out to the things that I didn't talk about today. Ruben wrote in about Cherry Pit liqueur. And I'm glad I didn't have a chance to talk about this because I didn't find a satisfactory answer
+
+[47:11] yet. A lot of conflicting information about, uh, like how to figure out how much cyanide or cyanogenic compounds are going to be in a stone fruit
+
+[47:18] liqueur. Uh, although there's an awesome uh, web post. I forget who did it. It's called Yes or Noyo for using stone fruit liqueurs? Awesome. And then Brian wrote in about cultured butter and how to make a better cultured
+
+[47:32] butter, and I'm really sad because I did a lot of research on this. And it contains the word
+
+[47:37] Lucana stock, Meserantroides. And whenever anyone says, Lucana stock styles, what song do I think about? I said on the show, Lukonestock, it's Lukenbach, Texas. You know the song, Lukenbach, Texas? But it's Lucano stock. And so now, like, the entire time over, when I was biking, I was like, new kind
+
+[47:54] of stuck, Texas, you know that song? With Willie and Wheeling and the boys. You know this song? Waylon Jennings? Jesus, come on, people. get some culture So I'll get to that. Although next week we're not here. Next week I'm in California in the Redwoods. And I won't have cell service. I won't be able to call in. So we're going to be gone next week, but I'll get this when I come back. Chris, Chris Collar. It's collar, like holler, right? Wrote in about La Song Suchong, whether the smoke is carcinergenic. Maybe, but I wouldn't worry about it. And I'll research it. And also, I got, I had a blender question with blender stuff. Uh, I'm gonna, from Michael, uh, I'm going to get that next time. And tomatoes in the fridge, and we'll leave with this. tomatoes in the fridge and we'll come back in 2 weeks. The question was, from why Heston Blumenthal can put peeled tomatoes into ice water so they don't continue cooking after they've been
+
+[48:41] blanched, and it doesn't ruin the texture, whereas, as we all know, only enemies of quality put tomatoes in the fridge. And the reason is, the mealiness in tomatoes doesn't develop immediately just regarding being chilled the way that you can show some things and it destroys the texture immediately. Instead, it is storage at low temperatures that causes tomatoes to turn mealy. So as long as they're in and out of the ice water a relatively short amount of time, your tomatoes won't go mealy. And if you really want to get kung fu about it, think about this. Why can you story charity, why can cherry tomatoes and grape tomatoes be stored in the fridge successfully without them turning bad, and it's because they're mostly seed and gel? And the seed and gel portion does not turn mealy only the fleshy parts. So in tomatoes that have very small amounts of fleshiness to them, like cherry tomatoes, they can be stored fairly successfully in the fridge without them turning too crappy, but don't let anyone know that I said
+
+[49:30] that. Cooking issues.
+
+[49:38] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[49:46] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Whole Foodsmarket.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Kurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello, and we're back after a one week, week, hiatus on cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Bert's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Ooh, Brooklyn. Join as usual in the studio with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, sir? Good. And we have Jack in the engineering booth. And also for the 1st time in the junior booth, Wyatt, how you guys doing? We're great Yeah, so why, what is it that you, that you do here at the Heritage Radio Network? Washington Full Service radio on Thursday nights. Mm, nice. Sweet. Awesome. And by the way, Jack, did we ever get, did we ever get cutting the curd schedule to call in and have
+
+[1:10] it cutting the cooking issues? Yeah, hopefully he's gonna come on the 2nd half today. Oh, nice. All right. All right. So, uh, this last week I was gone because I was in uh, Nastasia's home state. Actually, my home state. But we moved out, you know, I moved out when I was at 3 and Nastasia had to stay in Covina long enough to see the filming of Good Burger before she came out to the sweet,
+
+[1:32] sweet, east coast. I had no idea that Goodburger was filmed in your hometown. Yeah. So for like years, did you walk around going, buggity, buggity, buggity,
+
+[1:41] boogity, boogity, boogity, or no? No, I think it was when I was in elementary school. It was filmed. It was like 96, right? 97? Yeah. Yeah. Classic, Sinbad. Do you remember? the movie at all? Sin Sinbad. Sinbad is in, I think it's a relatively late role for Sinbad, but he is the teacher who's a little bit
+
+[1:59] crazy who gets hit by, like, hit by the car by Dexter's car. And he's got these...
+
+[2:06] heat lapels and a sweet, sweet pro in that movie. My kids now are now obsessed with the burger. White points out George Clinton also in that movie. George Clinton was one of the dancing crazies in the in the institution. Yeah, you're like, holy crap, that's the actual, yeah. The movie has like lots of like little kind of classic nuggets in it, you
+
+[2:28] know? Uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Classic. Classic, uh, good, good burger style movie there. But the problem is I can't get my kids to stop imitating and repeating portions of it.
+
+[2:42] There's a good burger, like in Union Square or something, right? They're not related, are they? They're not related, they must be somehow related. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't even must have come first. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but the question is, is, like, you know, can you start a restaurant called Good Burger
+
+[2:59] and, like, not worry about infringing on Good Burger the movie? I mean, obviously it's helping you. If people assume that you have Ed's special secret sauce, you know, in your burger, then I assume you are ripping off some of the IP of the
+
+[3:12] movie, and, you know, you should kind of be punished for that. have to do some research on that. Yeah, yeah, someone check into this for us and tell us whether good burger in the restaurant. I mean, I mean, I don't know that I want to be associated with a restaurant where, you know, one of the employees takes a bath in the running strawberry milkshake
+
+[3:30] machine. And I also don't really get the wisdom of having strawberry be your only flavor of milkshake. I mean, for years, you know, Wendy had the, had the frosty and only one flavor, chocolate, and I'm always a vanilla shake kind of a guy, but you ever had the
+
+[3:46] frosty stars? No. Jack, Wyatt, ever had the Wendy's? I actually love Frosties. Yeah, here's the deal. Why the hell do they give you a straw with that thing at all? Oh I know. doesn't work. Never, never, never, never. I mean, yeah. Those of you that have seen me in like a full, like, spitting red-faced rant. No, that I have lungs. And like, I can suck strong enough to completely collapse the straws under the force
+
+[4:08] and vacuum from when I'm sucking on them. Even a perfectly round one that I haven't matched with any sort of pre-anger. I can just like take a perfectly round straw. Like, even if it had protective casing on it and suck that sucker flat in a frosty. And what this means to me is that the frosty should just be served in an open cup with a spoon. Yeah. You know? Anyways, but I'm told now that they have vanilla frosties. I mean, I don't know what that's all about. Like they have extra space in a Wendy's restaurant now or they have an extra flavor of frosty. I don't know. I don't know. But if you guys were going to pick one flavor of shake, would it be strawberry? I mean, not as your personal flavor, but as like you have to sell to customers. No. No. And this is why Mondo Burger almost took Good Burger out of business. I mean, because they just think about stuff like that. Whereas, you know, all those other guys have is Abe Vagoda. By the way, I would go to any restaurant. Is David Vagoda still alive? Oh, it's a good question. a look. I love me some Abe Vagoda. Even back then in the 90s. They were saying that he was about to die, which is kind of rough to say to your fry cook. But anyway, good good times. Do people in Covina talk like that, Stas? I don't know. I haven't seen the movie. Fast head. If goat is still alive. Sweet. He's 93. I love Ava. I love me some A Vagoda. You know who Ava God is, right, Stuff? Do you love A Vagoda? Ava Goda, one of the one of the people name checked in, I think, was it Hello Nasty that the BC's checked, Dave Vagoda? don't know. anyway. Love me some Avigoda. Okay, so, oh, but yeah, so where was I? I was in California and it turns out, I went to someplace in California that I visited when I was like a very, very small boy, the coastal
+
+[5:42] redwoods, which were sick, amazing. And by the way, that's where they filmed Return of the Jedi. Like the Ewok forest. So if you've never been to the coastal redwoods before, don't worry, the forest moon of whatever it is, what is it, Endor? Endor, Ewoks, anyone? Anyway, so if you look at Return of the Jedi, where they're flying through on the speeders and smashing into the trees and crap, like that's where they filmed it. And these trees are, I mean, my wife took all the good pictures because she's got the iPhone 5 and I'm on like a flat 4 with like a like a cracked out camera. But like, so I'll put some pictures up, but holy crap, there are some impressive sons of guns. I live in a 20 story building and these trees are almost twice as tall as my building. The tallest tree I saw was like top like 375 for the Redwoods. And it makes like these awesome Douglas firs that are only like 300 feet tall, look like puning tens. You know what I mean? Meanwhile, any tree here would look like a shrub compared to the ones you have
+
+[6:34] in there. I also visited the sequoias in Yosemite, Yosemite amazing, obviously, but what I didn't know is kind of how awesome the kind of Sierras are. I went to, and also we went to Lawson Volcanic Park, which is a national park in California that nobody knows about and nobody was
+
+[6:48] there. Like, nobody. Nobody. Like we like saw like maybe one car, 2 cars in the hour and a half drive, we were driving to get to where we were going in Lawson State Park. And when I told the person at Lassen, I was like, oh, you know, my friend, you know, McGee told me I should, you know, come and check this out. She was like, you didn't know about Lawson? I was like, no. She's like, it's a national park. I was like, but I don't live in California. She's like, it's a national park. We're national park. I was like, 0 my god, they have such a chip on their shoulder. If you go to Lassen, which is in like upper upper east of California. Do not mention that you're going to Yosemite because I went to Yosemite. The, uh, the lady at the, at the visitor center was like, I was like, yeah, yeah, we just got from
+
+[7:24] Lassen, Lassen. She's like, Lassen? I was like, it's a national park. She's like, nope, doesn't ring a bell. I'm like, it's in California. Nope. Like I said, like Lawson is like the forgotten state park. But it's pretty cool for those of you that are in that area. And I was just really, you know, surprised and amazed at the variation
+
+[7:42] in beauty in California, especially your coniferous forests. Anyways, so that's what I was doing. Oh, I cooked some good stuff on the camp, by the way. I cooked a crap ton of stuff with the sears all. Boat ton of stuff with the sears all. I made pizza with the sears all, because I was in one camp for 2 days, so I did a 24 hour rise on the dough and then flash it off with the sears all, and I had with me some schmoreza, some smoked schmoreza,
+
+[8:05] and you know, instead of mozzarella and some parmigiano and some tomato paste and anchovies, some oil, crushed it all up. And the next day, Stas, ultimate camp food, by the way. Uh, risotto a la, a la, uh, with porcini, with risotto alfungi. And so I had like the super expensive dried porcinis, which are like, you know, super expensive but super lightweight. Some Parmigano, which doesn't need to be refrigerated, obviously. I bought the, you'd be happy styles. The Italian Brodo cubes, like the little, like, you know, stock cubes that I normally won't use, but for camping are great.
+
+[8:35] And it just busted that crap out. Kids didn't like it because they don't really like mushroom risotto, but to hell with them. You know what I mean? I made them like leftover grilled cheese sandwiches. By the way, was on that did a picnic with the Sears all only, did grilled cheese sandwiches on the banks of the Smith River with a Sears all. Sweet. And now you know how on the 1st night when you go camping, you have ice, so you have that's when you have your steak or whatever. Yes, it is some sweet steaks. Sweet steaks. Sweet, sweet steaks. Anyway, okay. Two, uh, what did you do this last week? How are this? How are the series all doing? Are they in the air? Yeah. They are. They're in the air. All right. So that's that's the that's the current update there in the air from China on the way to the good old Etaz Unis here.
+
+[9:18] Anyway, let's get some questions. Uh, la, la, la, la, la. Nick Malin writes in, uh, and thank you, Nick, for providing the name Mal in. I like that M-A-L- I-N. He spells his name like Fallon, but writes it like, whatever. Uh, about green meat. Hey, Dave. Uh, uh, I'm writing on behalf of a chef steps forum question that has seemingly gone unanswered. After 72 hours in a circulated water bath at 54 degrees Celsius, in what is 54? I can never remember what 54 is. It's like 129, 130 or something like that, somewhere in there. Uh, the vacuum sealed short ribs were green on the outside. No smell, no funk, just the color was off. I did not add a salt or oil to the bag pre-cooking. I simply had dried off the shorties before bagging them. Then after I sealed them. I placed them in simmering water for a few seconds to rid any surface bacteria that can cause
+
+[10:13] funkiness with long cooking times, and that was it. I gave them a quick sear, which I will assume be doing with my sears all and enjoyed them. People in the format suggested air leakage or presalting effect, but like I said, I added nothing to the bag and there was no leak. So I would love to hear from you. Thanks. Nick. PS, thanks for hating wraps as much as I do. eat a damn sandwich, people. All right, this is an interesting question. And I will start by saying that I have some links to point to, but I don't have a definite answer, but I will say this. In the many, many years that I cooked boat tons of short ribs,
+
+[10:51] sons, sauce, and with sauce, sous vide, because that was one of the standard things that we would cook in the low temperature class. We would cook short ribs 8000000000 different ways and sear them off because it's kind of, A, it's one of the classic low temperature things and whatever.
+
+[11:05] Anyways. And also not just with short ribs, but with steaks and other whole pieces of meat, whole cut like this, is they often do take a greenish tinge, take on a greenish tinge on the very outside of the
+
+[11:20] meat that goes away when you sear it the 2nd time. And it looks really, really bad. In fact, you know, one of the arguments that I always would say to people, because, you know, it used to be a big argument. Do you see her before? Or do you see her after? And, you know, the answer I always have was, of course, both, but if you had to choose one, you choose
+
+[11:39] here after, because the surface of the meat not only doesn't look like it has a nice crust, but often looks discolored and messed up and it gets fixed by like a quick
+
+[11:48] sear, because as you say, like that coloration is not necessarily come along with any sort of
+
+[11:54] off-flavor or funky flavor. Now, when you cook something low temp for a long time, especially when you get as low as 54 in that range, you often have the problem of super funky blue cheese, nasty meat stank,
+
+[12:05] which comes from lactic acid bacteria in their relatives that are growing and often cause blow off in the bag if you get
+
+[12:12] floaters. But as you say, you might want to go more than a few seconds, but a dunk in simmering water does a lot to,
+
+[12:18] a, kickstart the temperature right at the surface of the meat and to stop any bacteria that are at the surface from kind of penetrating in.
+
+[12:25] Now, when you describe green, you also have to describe kind of what color of green you mean. Because there's also, and I don't think this is what you're talking about. There's the phenomenon of iridescence in cooked meats specifically cured cooked meats, but it could be in non-cured meats as well. And this is a physical structural phenomenon that you get, you often see it in deli meats. You seen that before stuff, right? Like, that's not something to kind of worry about, although some people don't like the look of it because they think it means it's spurled, but it's not
+
+[12:52] spurled. It's just iridescent meat. And there's a lot of literature actually on iridescent meat. But that's not what you're talking about. I'm assuming what you're talking about. It's not bright green, it's more of like an army blackish green. You've seen that before on the surface of the shortest, right? It looks disgusting. Yeah. And so then the question is, well, what causes that? Short answer, I don't know. But I did some initial research. There's uh, most of the greening in meats is, and I'll send you to a couple of articles that are available on meat
+
+[13:19] coloring in general. This one doesn't have so much about greening, but look it up. It's on Purdue.edu's site, they have a meat color PDF that is pretty good review on meat
+
+[13:33] color, and unlike the reviews that I've been using from like 4 years ago or whatever, which is
+
+[13:38] the last time I seriously investigated meat colors. This one's available free online. So if you go to uh, www.cfs.purdue.edu
+
+[13:46] and search for their a meatcolorpdf. you can take a look at that. Um, another good resource to look at is uh, look up uh, the meat industry services. Can you believe that's of corporation meat industry services? They have a, uh, thing called color defects in meat. and it's an update, and it's a good PDF, and you want to read about that, because I think typically, it looks like greening colors in meats are due usually to sulfur. And so self myoglobin. And either sulfur or hydrogen peroxide are the 2 kind of things, both of which
+
+[14:27] are usually present as the result of bacteria that are there on the meat. Now, uh, and some of the bacteria are things like uh,
+
+[14:40] Weisella, viridescens, which is, uh, you can look to, there's uh, an article called, uh, I guess it's
+
+[14:46] Weisella. Maybe it's vaisellum. Anyway, um, if it's German, it'll be Faisella viotessens in meat products, uh, a review by uh, Marta Discova, uh, which is out in 2012, which talks about it, which causes like kind of very vivid greens, um,
+
+[14:59] in in meats. Um, but, and there's also uh, a specific greening in meats that has a high pH. So I don't know if you had a particular piece of meat. For instance, meats that are high, have a high pH, i.e. are not acidic enough and cooked in that are stored in vacuum environments, having known situation where they can have greening take place on the surface, but it can also happen in other
+
+[15:25] environments, if bacteria are there, and apparently it doesn't take very much sulfur presence. They form like, I guess they form hydrogen sulfide or they break some sulfur off of sulfur containing amino acids in the proteins. That's where that's where the sulfur's coming from, from the from protein breakdown on the surface. Um, So, you know, and I don't think it's been studied that much in long,
+
+[15:46] long term, uh, low temperature cooking, but some of these bacteria, greening bacteria, if that's,
+
+[15:52] is what it is, uh, you know, take a long time to kill, uh, even at relatively elevated temperatures and actually can be strengthened by uh, an initial heat shock.
+
+[16:00] So it could be something there. I don't know, but I know that Siri makes it go away. Check out those articles and anyone who else who can get back to me and give me a better answer, please
+
+[16:09] do. call her. Call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, a huge, huge fan of the show. This is Ray. formerly DC now living in crown height. Oh, Crown Heights. I just had a comment. I enjoyed last week when you were talking about raw onions. I think an emailer called about getting a metallic taste. And I'm not sure if this is relevant to what they were doing. But I know Rick Bayless of Mexican cuisine fame, talks about rinsing the onions after he cuts them and serves them raw. And I've noticed a big difference in doing that. Well, I would presume that's true because, uh, you know, the, the, the kind of harshness in onions, okay, so look, right? So there's some, there's some chefs like, uh, like, you know, um, Michael Palambino, who's like, I remember, I saw him like, go ape, ape crap on someone because they cut their onions beforehand, right?
+
+[17:02] Because, you know, the longer an onion sits after it's cut, like the more this kind of problem happens. But the, you know, truth of the matter is, a lot of us have to cut onions beforehand for
+
+[17:10] me is or for whatever, or if you're going to serve it like in a salsa where it's going to be cut and served fresh and not cooked again. And um, You know, like, I think almost all of the stuff that's happening in an onion happens after the tissues are broken, right?
+
+[17:24] And so it's a reaction between what's going on in the broken tissues and juices, and in this case, carbon knives, carbon steel knives, or any sort of like non-passivated kind of steel
+
+[17:35] surface, or other metal ions, for that matter. And so, yeah, I would bet rinsing helps out because I think it probably gets rid of a lot of the free surface crap that's been kind of liberated, probably even like a light
+
+[17:45] soaked. I mean, the problem is onions are so porous that if you soak them too long, they'll just soak up, uh, they'll soak up, you know, water, which I don't think is what you want. But yeah, I would bet that works. I mean like... Yeah, I usually just give them a quick rinse and that seems to seems to do it, especially for salsa or anything. Yeah, anything wrong? Nice. Awesome. So, uh, love the show, and I like all the the side notes, and I don't know, uh, I think it's been on the internets for a little while, but the James Brown miso soup commercial. Pretty awesome. Think you might like it if you haven't seen it. Wait, James, like, so someone took which James Brown song did they take? Which one? I think this is the one you guys used to use on your commercial breaks a long time ago. I don't know which one is. They kind of remix it, and it's a Japanese commercial, and it's, it's bizarre, but it's highly entertaining. And it makes it sound like James Brown is a huge fan of miso soup. Not that he wasn't. have no idea. Oh no, it's him. It's it's him. Dave, I'm going to break the rules real quick and just run this. You do this. It's over. Oh, man.
+
+[18:51] How do they, I wonder what... It sounds like you're saying Wiz Khalifa. Yeah, maybe he is. I don't know How do you know he is? That
+
+[19:07] is awesome. Uh, yeah, that's uh, that's uh, sex machine. By the way, you know who was playing bass on that is Bootsie Collins. Bootsie Collins was a very young guy on the tour bus when James Brown was working on
+
+[19:20] that, and he ended up, that was kind of one of his, like, big, early bass gigs was a sex machine, which is maybe why it's got such a... I mean, look, all of James Brown's bases were awesome, but I mean, I have a special love in my heart for Bootsy. But that is a classic. I would love to, like, figure out, like, by listening, if I can figure out what clips of his voice they took to make him say miso soup.
+
+[19:39] And I like how it's not really, doesn't sound like it was really mixed by a native English
+
+[19:44] speaker because it's not exactly how I would have imagined James Brown screaming
+
+[19:48] miso, but it's perfect, though. I like it. It makes it even better. Jack, you already knew about this and you didn't tell me? I did not know about this. All right, well, you've just, I'm now going to probably waste several hours of
+
+[19:59] noastasia's life once we get back to the lab, like, playing that and then, and then figuring out in my head exactly where they chopped it up. So thank you. Thank you for throwing away several of mustaches. Precious. As she bows her head down. All right. Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. and keep going. Rock on, guys. Love it. All right, Jack, should we take a commercial break? Yeah, give me 12nd here. All right. Come right back with some cookie issues.
+
+[20:31] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a locavore? Our Northeast Regional Forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing
+
+[20:51] teams at the local store level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their
+
+[20:58] products sold at our stores, whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution
+
+[21:03] methods. She's helping some of the area's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods
+
+[21:08] Market stores. Today, New York, tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com.
+
+[21:20] And we are back. Let me get a couple of questions from... Oh, yeah, going with McGee and I are doing the Harvard lecture next week.
+
+[21:35] We're going to do the class lecture, which I normally, are you going up the stairs? think so. I'm doing the class lecture, which, you know, McGee and I have done for the past, what, like 3 years now, 4 years, 3 years? Like for the initial one, like, uh, and uh, this year we're not gonna blow anything up. Right? I'm not gonna going to cause the entire Harvard science center to be
+
+[21:58] evacuated. Remember the depressed looks on those like, on those undergrads, or grads, whatever they were in their lab jackets with like staring at the ground and
+
+[22:07] like, in the dark and cold when we evacuated them from that building? Yeah, good times. Not. And, uh, the, um, anyway, so I'm gonna do that, which is the normal class we're gonna do. I'm going to do some, hopefully some new demos, but I think it's just going to be rappity slap, you know, demos, which shouldn't cause too many problems like I normally do. Hopefully they're fun. We got a couple of demos that are really good for that kind of thing. Like, um, maybe I won't spoil it. If you think anyone's, no one's listening is no, he's going to be at the Harvard. I don't know. We'll talk about it afterwards. But I have a couple of demos that I really enjoy. Like, when you do demos, like the good, like the bad thing about doing demos over and over again is that Nastasia tells you that you say the same crap over and over
+
+[22:46] again. No, the same anecdotes. I don't, it's not true. It's not true. It depends. Like certain things like are, so here's what here's where I'm going with this. So like the deal is, is that, you know, you know, when you've been teaching a while, you come up with demos and you see kind of what really demonstrates
+
+[23:03] something, and so like a lot of the things that you think are going to demonstrate stuff, they don't really work, but then other ones that you don't know, they do, like the oil and
+
+[23:09] water. They did such a good demo, the oil and water, heated oil and water. Anyways, and so, uh, you know, like, the good news is you would teaching is you come up with these demos that, you know, you really, like, people really stick in people's heads. And if you do them for long enough or enough times, you really get to get a feel for what it is that sticks in people's heads about it so you can really kind of like, you know, jigger the pedagogy around that crap. Um, and so anyway, we're building a, we're building up a list of demos and we're going to bust some of them out at the, at the Harvard going to be good. be good. But then for the public lecture, McGee and I are going to do a lecture we've never done before. It's going to be, although you probably heard some of the same crap because it's the stuff I rant about all the time. So if you're in the, if you're in the Cambridge area, I think that one's on Monday, Monday evening, we're doing a public
+
+[23:57] lecture and the subject of the public lecture is going to be, what the hell's been going on the past kind of 20
+
+[24:02] years? Like what's really going on? You know what I mean? And so it's going to talk about how, um, you know, the use of science is not just related to kind of these new technical and modern cooking
+
+[24:11] things. It's going to be kind of how, you know, we don't think that what everyone's doing the same, kind of, you know, analyzing the difference between kind of like what Wiley does, what Grant does at a linear or what other huckster things are, like kind of where this movement is
+
+[24:25] gone, and kind of what it means and what people are actually trying to do when they do it, as well as talk about kind of what's different in food now in terms of who's going into
+
+[24:33] it, as was going into it before. So this kind of a discussion. And I'm sure I'll make some digs at my favorite targets, like Air VTs and whatnot. And I think we got to find. replay that video I did at Portland of the, remember the stuff that we, that video we made with Piper on like the crappiest cocktail of all time using all like the week, week, week, molecular gastronomy techniques that, that I have no problem labeling
+
+[24:54] as that because I think they're just PT Barnum huckster crap and just making. So I did a lecture at Portland Cocktail. was that, 2 years ago? year and a half? Two years. Two years. And we did a video that was like all of the crappiest things you could think of like to do to a cocktail, like just the worst, worst cocktail. And, uh, and so we went through this whole 2 minute video. I can't remember whether there was music or not. There might have been music. If not, I'll put music on it because it needs some sort of stupid demo music in it. And then, uh, and then at the end,
+
+[25:24] like, literally, we just flash up, this sucks, this sucks. remember that? This sucks. This is terrible. This is everything that's wrong with cooking and cocktails. This is the worst thing in the world. And literally after the demo, someone asked me for the recipe. It is the worst. Worst. One of the worst moments of my life. It's like, it's like I always tell people, um, and should any of you out there who can hear my voice have to do a
+
+[25:50] demonstration for a camera where someone has the ability to edit you afterwards. Never show them what not to do because you think you're helping. So like when someone's showing me in person, like I appreciate it when they specifically do something wrong and show me how to do it
+
+[26:08] wrong so that I know not to do it that way. So I show someone how to do it right or what I think is right. And then I show someone actually, I'll F it up, I'll make it wrong on purpose so that they can see it happening wrong. And then hopefully let them taste and see how screwed up it is when they do it wrong. Inevitably. Editors use the wrong thing and put it up without explanation in video clips. Inevitably, if she's inevitable. So if you are ever in a situation where someone can edit you and you're not in the editing
+
+[26:35] room, never demonstrate what not to do. You've seen how many times you've seen this, does it? a bunch. And then you're like, no one knows any way to shut up, Dave. That's what you say. You say, eh, I freak out about it and you're like, nobody gets a crap. Nobody knows. Anyway. Ruben wrote in about cherry pits. Deer shipping container occupants. I scored some delicious sour cherries this summer and have a couple of questions on putting them to use. One, I'm planning to make a sorbet with the cherries, puree, sweeten the 28 brakes, chill spin. Sounds good. Any thoughts on what sugar will ensure a good texture? I understand the mechanics of freezing point depression, and I normally experiment, but don't have enough fruit left. I've got dextrose fructose, liquid glucose, et cetera. I would just look, I would just look up like a recipe. I don't have kind of the ratios in my head. I would just, I forgot to look this aspect of it up. But, obviously, you can make something more sweet and make it softer or use invert and have it be
+
+[27:30] softer because of the increased freezing point depression. I would look up somebody else's recipe and see kind of what they add. I wouldn't add, I wouldn't add too much. I'm sorry, I forgot to look up the numbers now because that stuff that I wouldn't want to quote out of my head. I just don't do it enough. But two, here we go. Here's what I actually looked into for you. I have a lot of leftover pits. Any tips on working with them to safely make, how do you think you pronounce it? O, right? No I a pit. Noayo or ice cream. I'd like to extract the most flavor, but I have no idea how to dose them to avoid cyanide toxicity and can't find any seemingly reliable information. I've seen some comments that roasting the pits eliminates the wrist, but not much in the way of justification. Can't say how much I enjoy the show every week. Thank you all, Ruben. So what we're worried about here is that any of the stone fruit, uh, and it's really the kernel, you know, I mean, not
+
+[28:21] the, not the, not the, not the meat and not the, not the roughly crap. You know what I'm talking about? The roughly crap on the pit. You know what I mean? The kernel. So when you taste them, and this is like, uh, you know, any stone fruit, apple, you know, pips, um, all that stuff, uh,
+
+[28:40] what the problem with it is, is that it contains uh, amygdalin. Amygdalin, when you chew on it, enzymes can convert the amygdalin into sweet, sweet cyanide, which is poisonous, but also benzaldehyde, which is the aroma we get
+
+[28:55] from, from like, you know, that almond extract. Benzaldehyde, which is what we like in it, in an amaretto cookie or something like this. Now, if you're just throwing a couple of apricot kernels, which is typically what you buy here in
+
+[29:07] the States, into a batch of almond cookies, then, you know, it's not going to be a
+
+[29:12] problem. But when you're doing a boat ton of apricot pits, in fact, the Sinai level
+
+[29:18] can, or whatever, what are we using again? You were using cherries. You can get enough problematic crap. cyanide to cause problems. So man, and there is not a lot of information out there. So I will defer to, you know, chemistry, drink Meister, Darcy O'Neill. So if you're not familiar with Art of the Drink blog, you know, Darcy is a chemist and kind of drink person. He's the person who wrote Fix the Pumps, which is kind of the game changing book on bringing back the art of the soda
+
+[29:52] jerk. Uh, and um, And fix the pumps is uh, old slang, soda jerk slang for check out the stacked lady at the
+
+[30:01] uh, bar. fix the pumps. I think that's what it is. that's my memory So he, in August 31st, 2011, put a big post up on Cherry, specifically, I think, cherries, but any sort of stone
+
+[30:15] fruit, and cyanide in liquor specifically, and goes through the different steps you can
+
+[30:20] do, and there's a 2nd post on how to get rid of it. His take on it, because he did some calculations based on the number of milligrams per milliliter cyanide in standard pits that he was able to get off the
+
+[30:30] internet, and like the amount that's there. Yes, it is possible to, um, have a dangerous level and that he wouldn't necessarily keep it around and recommend consuming
+
+[30:39] it, even though people have done it for a long time. Here's what he said. Though in the 2nd part where he says how to mitigate the problems. One, if you leave this stuff a long time. So here's what he says, I'll just read his quote, because he talks about how to get rid of it via distillation, which is possible. He also, by the way, just says by, you know, oil of almonds, wheel, which bends aldehyde in it and just have it done with. But because he's thinking that someone is trying to make that flavor, not that someone has a product that they want to get the best use of, right?
+
+[31:05] I mean, I think the reason that you're not going and buying crap to make that flavor is because you have this
+
+[31:09] product, it has other flavors in it besides the benzaldehyde, and you want to use these things. So you know, whatever. So you can't just go buy the flavor and have done with it. But here's what it here's what it goes. Since distillation method isn't practical for the average person, here's another, though, much slower method, think months. Hydrogen cyanide can be hydrolyzed to formic acid and ammonia. Yes, formic acid, the same stuff that fire ants use to piss you off. Hydrolization is done in the presence of water. So if you just infuse apricot kernels in vodka, some of the hydrogen cyanide will decompose. But the process is very slow. Heat will help. It should also be noted that formic acid has a fruity mustard aroma. Sorry, so aging it for a long time. Okay, and this is still Darcy. Okay, I understand you're impatient, so here's one more method. A number of sources have indicated that roasting the kernels at 176 degrees Celsius for 10 to 15 minutes will drive off the hydrogen cyanide. This could work, but you have to make sure all the kernels are free from the shell and ground coarsely. I'd recommend adding enough water to make a wet mass and set aside for an hour or more to ensure that the amygdalin and beta
+
+[32:08] glucosidase, which is the enzymes that make the sweet smell, can react. Afterwards, spread the mixture on a baking sheet and heat until dry. There is no guarantee that this method will remove all of the cyanide, but it should remove some. Dry roasting is not effective since amygdala is stable at that temperature. Also, the boiling point of benzaldehyde, which is the aroma you want, is 178 degrees Celsius, which is just 2 degrees higher than the cooking temperature. So you will most likely drive off some of the flavor component you are trying to capture. So there you have, you know, what he says about it. I'll also add that you could probably heat it. The problem is, I don't know. It's an interesting thing. If I was doing it, I would just age it for like a year. Do it and age it for a year and kind of see what happens. You know, if you're Darcy, you're lucky enough to have the equipment. You could actually test whether or not you've gotten rid of it or not. You guys can't. Anyway, so I hope that answered some of your questions on that. All right, let me see where we are here. Stan B, right? wrote in, we talked about his caramel. So greeting from France. We talked about caramel what? 2 weeks ago, 3 years ago? Three or 4 weeks ago, I asked a question about replacing sugar in a recipe with caramel, i.e. the same amount of cooked to a
+
+[33:21] brownness, sugar. I tried to also make meringues with it and the result is interesting. Um, and I go through the recipe. I make a dry caramel, about 200 grams of table sugar, import it, well, hot on 100 grams of egg whites being whipped, almost the same as
+
+[33:36] Thai meringue. After shaping the meringue, I cook them for 2 hours at 120 C. Quite a bit of the liquid caramel turned solid. pouring it into the egg whites. It got a bit scary scary with caramel bits making strong clingety cling sounds from the electric whip. Maybe a better technique would be add a bit of water into the caramel turn into a syrup closer to an actual Thai meringue. That should lower the amount of recrystallization before the caramel gets mixed into the egg whites or other prep. The taste was good, not great, but good and close to expectations. But soon after baking and once cooled, the meringues had a very brittle texture with a bit of crunch before turning to powder. However, after 5 or 6 hours, the meringues turn very soft, almost marshmallow like, as you had mentioned on the show, the inverted
+
+[34:12] sugar, the inverted sugars and caramel do suck in moisture, I would advise to serve quickly or keep in your dehydrator. Um, So there you go. Update on whether or not what we say makes any sense. He also says, I appreciate your thoughts, that caramel taste can come from cooked milk salads. It might get some milk powder and toast and brown it or cooking in the oven, in butter, as per ideas in food blog posts from 2008 on that, and then see how it goes. Uh, and then as a side note, he gives us an article on uh, on, like the scientific article on pizza cheese. What are your needs in a pizza cheese? Do you like blistered bubbles on your pizza cheese is important to you? No. Apparently it's very important. If you look up, here is the recipe for perfectly brown pizza cheese as established by science. It's good interest. really interesting reading for those of you out there that are interested in why certain cheeses, you know, bubble and boiling, and I'll give you the short answer. It has to have some fat, but not that much and fairly high moisture as well as being elastic and cohesive, a.k.a. mozzarella. But, you know, you know, Stan's question was, could you use, like, a modernist cuisine style, emulsifying salt technique to make a cheese that acted like that that had a different flavor, and I think quite certainly the answer is yes. Just have to get the fat content, right? And in fact, they hinted this in the article, get the fat content right, increase the stretchiness of it by with proper emulsifying salts, but not enough to make it like melt out totally.
+
+[35:28] And then, uh, and then just make sure you have enough water most. It should work. Yes? Yes. So we have one caller that we can squeeze in before the show ends. All right, caller, but we have more than one that we can squeeze in. No, but I think we have time for one call. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Brian here in New York. How are you? Doing all right. What's up? Good. I just want to say thanks for all your information about ice cream recently, but I haven't had a chance to implement it. Um, uh, in part because um, I recently got an allergic reaction and had to go through battery of all kinds of allergy tests. Oh my god, did they do the, did they do the arm trick? come up with, is the possibility of something called, if you look it up, pancake syndrome, which is dust
+
+[36:12] mite, Dust mites getting into flowery, flowery, powdery substances, if, if, if it's got uh, heat or, or um, humidity. So, you know, here in the New York weather, that, that might be a cause. So now, uh, based on this, and the reason it's called pancake syndrome is those people who, you know, put some uh, pancake mix in the back of their covered in every, you know,
+
+[36:37] every 6 months, bring it out, can make pancakes, you know, sometimes come down with a allergic reaction in which they've digested dust mites, uh, unknowingly, and uh, therefore, um, come down with
+
+[36:50] the reaction. So, um, one of the things is, is, um, got rid of lots of my flowers, and now the recommendation from the doctor is to keep it all in the fridge or the freezer.
+
+[37:02] And so what I'm wondering is uh, with flowers and sort of powdery stuff. Is there any consequence to keeping these items in the in the
+
+[37:14] cold, in the fridge or the freezer? Okay, I got some answers for you on this. But here's here, let me ask you a couple questions first. The test that they did, were they, were they, uh, were they bioassays or do they do skin prick tests? I freaking hate skin prick tests. Let me tell you something. Like, I am like, you know, a pasty white, like northern European mutt, right? And so like for those of you that aren't pasty white, like, you know, pasty white people have very sensitive skin.
+
+[37:42] And so it looked like I was allergic to every dang thing on the skin test just because that
+
+[37:47] little, like, that little freaking thing that they scrape into your arm, like that gives me a freaking
+
+[37:52] reaction. You know what I mean? I hate that test. I think it's completely inaccurate and crappy. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not as tasty as you,
+
+[38:05] but uh, I definitely got some bumps and stuff from, from all that. But then they verified it with like an actual kind of like bioassay. Yeah, they drew some blood. So, yeah. That I believe. Like those things, I believe. But back when I developed my cherry allergy, they didn't really have all that crap yet. So, like, literally, they were like, oh, you're allergic to lobster. you're allergic to. I like, what? I'm allergic to getting jabbed in the freaking arm, lady. You know what I mean? Anyway, okay. And I love the story about the pancake things. pancake syndrome. Stas, do you ever got pancakes syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Look at a pancake syndrome. And my other question before I answer, your question is, is it that you're directly allergic to the
+
+[38:46] mites or is it the mites trigger a reaction that now you can have, even without the mites? that you're directly allergic to the mites? possibly. Yeah, it's the mice, you know, it's the, you know, if you, if you, it's one thing if, you know, you're breathing it and they, you know, might be, uh, might be, you know,
+
+[39:05] on your bed or something like that or around your house. But if they're getting into something that you eat, and then you're eating them, then it's
+
+[39:12] higher concentration, uh, and, and, and that's the, that's the problem. All right, so I lied. more questions. You know, it's smoking pot versus, you know, eating it. Oh, no, I thought you were going to say Bill Clinton in it, like, but they're not inhaling. But the, so here's my other, here's my, my other question, which just came into my head. What about cheese mites? or like the mites on meat, like, on, like, ham mites and stuff like that? Are those do those crossover? Is it only flower mites? I have no idea. I didn't even, I did, they, they told me dust mites, the, the, the allergist, but, you know, I don't know if they can test for all those kind of, uh, different, different variables.
+
+[39:53] You know, they can't test for everything. Right. How bad's the reaction? Is it hospital reaction? I mean, they said it was severe reaction. Yeah. So it's hospital. So, like, what I would do is, like the next time you go into, uh, talk to the allergist, I would stop by, you know, a cheese shop, like Murray's or something, and get or whatever, and
+
+[40:12] get, like, a, like, a really mighty cheese that has, you know, some rind on it. Don't eat it on your own. You know what I mean? But like when you're in a challenge test situation with your doctor. or unless they know. Like, you could do a search of literature and they say, no, cheese mites aren't a problem. But, you know, get some of that to, you know, just so that you can know for a fact whether that's
+
+[40:32] going to be a problem or not. Because I'm just curious. You know, I mean, this is probably a known thing, but I just wonder how kind of how specific it is to this specific kind of might. And also, you know, if you've ever stored, um, hams, uh, you know, dry aged hams, which we're doing ham tasting next week, um, the, uh, they also can have uh, mites and you'll see like a dusty powderiness that's underneath
+
+[40:53] the hams if you've been hanging them, depending on kind of what's around. You want to make sure that you're not allergic to that kind of stuff too. If you like, you know, long cured meat products or if you like like cheeses. Just something just something to check out. Um, because I've also found that, you know, a lot of times, you know, a doctor won't necessarily, like, think to tell you that. They might know it or they might not know it, but either way, I would check before you have to stab yourself in the NepiPen and go to the hospital just for eating something. You know what I mean? Yeah, I got to carry that heavy pen now. I know it sucks. And, you know, they expire every, whatever it is, and you have to get a new one. And you know what the thing is, though, dude. I don't know how bad off you are, but a lot of times I've had kind of mild reactions
+
+[41:31] start, and I always carry with me Benadryl. And so, uh, and, you know, I don't know if they still make it, but the last time I bought it,
+
+[41:38] they, uh, they used to make like Benadryl and like listerine strips. It gets into your system extremely quickly. Unfortunately, you can't do it if you have to drive home or whatever because it not, you know, it makes you super drowsy and knocks you out. And I also feel very strongly that Benadryl destroys my sense of taste for hours. So, you know, you don't want to have to take it. You know, it's, I don't take it lightly, but it's a lot, you know, because once you stab yourself at the EpiPen, you have to go to the hospital.
+
+[42:02] I mean, that's basically it. But if you, uh, you know, if you, if all you're doing is taking Benadryl and you self-monitor for a little while, as long as you're someone there with you, you know,
+
+[42:11] uh, I don't feel the need to, you know, go to the ER. Um, you know, because you can start. I don't know what you have. With me, my throat closes up and so you can kind of feel when the reaction is happening. Anyways, now to answer your question, do not store it in the
+
+[42:24] fridge, and the reason not, because you don't, that you don't want to store it in the fridge is there's a boatload of condensation that can happen, especially if the thing's... Yeah, freezer, yes. So that's the I was games. Don't store it in the fridge, store it in the freezer. So I buy quite often a couple of brands of chapati flour and other kind of like whole
+
+[42:43] grain soft Indian flowers because I like them in
+
+[42:48] pancakes, actually, and in biscuits because of the flavor that they have, but the brands that I buy almost always have larva in them that hatch. And so eventually they'll get buggy. And if you've seen like a flower that has that kind of stuff, it gets kind of little ropey threads in it. And then if you look closer, you can see kind of stuff that's there and then you have to sift everything. sucks. And so for years, like, and I don't do it with, you know, gold brand or anything like, you know, I use
+
+[43:15] heckers actually, but, you know, with those, because I've never had a problem with those, but I store all of those kinds of specialty flowers in the
+
+[43:23] freezer, always. And they're fine. They're fine. Uh, you know, I, I, what I do is I wrap them. I put them in zips and I get rid of all of the air in the zip so that there's not a lot of, you know, um, uh, you know,
+
+[43:36] when if moisture does get in the fridge, it doesn't condense in high school form on the flower. I've never had a problem with it clumping. I've never had any degradation of the quality. you know, it's it's been it's been fine. zippies, zippies work, not like mason jars that are that are fully sealed. Well, actually, in a mason jar, you have more air because you can't compress them down.
+
+[43:54] I usually keep them in their sack and then put the sack
+
+[43:59] in a zippy, roll the and then compress it down and then get rid of it because you actually can get more air out of it that
+
+[44:04] way. Do you know what I'm saying? Now, but here's here's the, uh, I had, I had a caveat. Oh, yeah. One caveat to remember is that like, I don't know what you're making with it, but it's going to throw off all of your temperatures. So, um, you know, if you're used to things hydrating in a specific amount of time or if you're doing, uh, you know, mixing of breads or anything like this, just be aware that you're, you know, it's not that it has that much thermal energy compared to the water that you're adding or milk or whatever, but if you have a recipe that's, uh,
+
+[44:37] where the temperature of the batter, uh, or whatever, or and yeast on a bread is, is, uh, is critical, that you might just need to adjust it a little bit or let the stuff that you're going to use come up to
+
+[44:48] temperature. But I haven't had any problems. And, but, you know, like I say, that stuff I mainly use for biscuits and pancakes, so. So I hope that helps. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm, I think I, I, I might need to get another freezer because uh, I don't, I don't have enough room for everything. They want to sneak in there. You know, I got to put my my mafa in there. I got to put my uh, I gotta put all my, my, my baking flowers. I got to put, uh, you know, all the different, you know, different stuff in there. Yeah, polenta. Well, I mean, the thing is, if you're going to use the stuff right away. If you're going to use this stuff. I mean, it depends on how long you're going to store the stuff too, right? Here's another thing that is true. Once you get, and I know this for a fact with hams, right? Once you get, like a mite, there. I mean, like for most of us, it's totally harmless and it's like they're just there. It's not because it's not like a hygiene thing, whatever. You know what I'm saying? It's just they're there. But once they're there, like, I know with him, like, you cannot have a hand for, like, it seems like 8000000000 years, and then all of a sudden you get another handman, all of a sudden they're back. So, I don't know whether you're going to have a problem where you need to kind of decontaminate your pantry somehow, and I don't really know how to do
+
+[46:00] that, um, to kill them all. But, I mean, it might be a situation where you only have to store your long held stuff. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? You also might be able to, if it's freezer space is an option, most of these things probably can't grow in a
+
+[46:16] hardcore vacuum atmosphere. So then if you want to go to a food saver situation, you might be able to vacuum pack your flowers,
+
+[46:26] uh, not in a bag because that'll compress the hell out of them and a lot of sifting work for you to do, but like in a hard container, like a vacuum
+
+[46:34] pack. might be able to uh, reduce their ability to uh, to reproduce. I don't know. I'm just, I'm just saying this is a possibility that I'm thinking off off the top of my head, and it might be easier for you to do dry storage of, you know, vacuumed containers. You just have to make sure that the vacuum is being maintained maintained over a long period of time. Or you could just take small samples and vacuum down hardened bags and then just deal with the sifting. Because I've done that before on certain things, but just be careful when you're vacuuming powders. If you use a strong vacuum to vacuum powders, you can, I don't know. like when you're dumping powders into bags, you can aspirate them. And if you're having a problem, if there's already some mites present, you don't want to be aspirating a lot of this stuff when you're baking or cooking. And that's another point I might want to make is that your allergist might not be a cook.
+
+[47:25] And so they might not think about the difference between cooking with something and consuming it. So you might want to be extra special careful when you're working with flowers not to not to cause a lot of, you know, aspirated particles. Like, we've all done it where we fire up the kitchen aid a little bit too fast and it goes whap, whap, whap, and throws a floof of flour up in the air. That might be a little more hardcore for you at this point than it would have been like a year ago. And so you might want to also take care when you're doing that, just to minimize your exposure. Yeah. That's, that's, that's great. That's great. Yeah, um, you know, uh, got to get that of the freezer, because, you know, I got my, I got to put the hydrocolloids in there, and I'm not sure, you know, what's going to grow in, in, in what, for sure, or, or, you know,
+
+[48:15] paprika and, you know, uh, you know, ground spices. I mean, I try to grind as much from fresh, but, uh, You know? Yeah, well, I don't know. Do they grow in that stuff? Well, again, you're going to have to experiment, but like, why don't you get back to us and let us know, let us know what happened, because I'm interested to hear what happens, especially
+
+[48:33] Ari, the cheese and stuff like that. All right? Yeah, sounds good. All righty. Good luck with it. All right, so Jack is ripped, going to rip me off the air in a second. So here are the questions I didn't get to, and I'll get to them. Adam Rogers, the author of proof, good book. wants to know, like how high I have to pour liquid nitrogen above your head to have it, you know, evaporate before it kills you. Maybe we'll get to that next time. Have a question about fennel from Michael wants to know if we can make it taste more. anyway, we'll deal with that next week. Uh, on uh, Keel Clayberg wrote in about custard. Uh, I have answers on that, but we'll have to wait for next week. And also, a request that we get one of the Momofuku, what's it called? Fermentation experts in on the show. We should do that sometime. All right? And a question which would have been perfect after this flower thing from Sam on the
+
+[49:24] Ottolie's step of bread baking by, you know, which is popularized by Raymond Calvell, famous bread guy. Again, we'll have to get to that next week. This has been crooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[49:45] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:04] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:28] Lady, me and baby, I was playing till they call the cops call us the California honey drop. A little young, a little old, with a little bit of soul, here's a little something you ain't heard before. We played on the street. We made a little coin, built a time machine and picked up Mr. Boyne. Everybody's having fun, and we only just a young. We gone, party till the morning gone. We gone party till the morning comes.
+
+[1:06] Today's episode of Cooking Issues has been brought to you by Wilma Jean Restaurant serving delicious fried chicken and other
+
+[1:12] southern comfort food classics, plus great burgers located at 345 Smith Street. For more information, visit Wilma Jean 345.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:42] Hello and welcome to Cooking Introduces Day, Arnold, your host of Cooking Your Shoes Day, coming to you live on Roberta's Pizzeria
+
+[1:47] in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday, from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, a little bit later, as latest we can push it. You see, we get kicked out of here because, you know, we got people coming in. They got to get ready for their program, all this other stuff. So we get Heidi hoed out. And, you know, sometime around 1250, somewhere in that, in that general region, calling your questions
+
+[2:04] two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah, I haven't seen a lot because I was in the Chicago. Yeah, nice. How you been? fine. Oh, that was not the, you didn't see it. You know how like when someone asks you something and you're about to say something and your lips close and your mouth
+
+[2:24] inflates like you're about to say something and then you're like. She's about to say not fine. Yeah, shake shake it off and then say fine. F word, yeah. Yeah, fine. That's what, that's what, yeah, just for you, if you can get that visual image. And Jack Insley, Insley, Insley in the booth. How you doing? I'm great. That was awesome. How did you like the hams? Oh, the hands are delicious. Yeah, we did it. The last time I saw you, yeah. tell everybody. It was Wednesday. It was the Wednesday. Uh, so, you know, last week we were at Harvard, uh, which is why we didn't do the show,
+
+[2:55] unfortunately, we wanted to, but the problem is it's scheduled for right before and uh, so I couldn't. Anyways, uh, so, uh, Sam Edwards, who, as well as Edwards and Sons, is uh, sometimes sponsor of our program, uh, and of the radio show, radio uh, network in
+
+[3:10] general, is a, is a, you know, a well-known uh, sponsor, uh, set up along with Patrick, uh, Martin, the, uh, a hand tasting, which is actually like a very expanded new version of, you know, something that I think he's done a couple of
+
+[3:25] times and I did once in 2004, showcasing American uh, country
+
+[3:29] hands tasted side by side with their European counterparts. I had a lot of interesting people. there. did we taste, Jack? like 14 or something? I think it was like 20. 20? It was a lot, it was a lot of. I made it to about 14 or 15. I ate I ate fistfuls of ham more than other people did because that's just how I rolled. But the next day, I was like, I was like, that's my, I need water. No, that night. That was like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, 0 my God. Oh my geez. And, uh, some interesting uh, Virginia apple cider from uh, it was good. But anyway, but so is there a write-up of this whole thing somewhere on the Heritage radio? question. I'll post it on Twitter, some information. I don't know Yeah, but go check it out just because, like, I could sit here and go, you know, blow by blow, but, you know, I think, Stas, you were there. What do you think? I thought it was good. I didn't sit. A woman of many words. It was good. Yeah, anyways. A lot of interesting hams, including one of the interesting developments over the past. Oh, eight, nine, 10 years is American hand producers using controlling the feed of the
+
+[4:35] animals. So we had some acorn fed, American, not acorn, peanut fed American hogs, and some other interesting stuff. So, it's a very interesting tasting. I have Michael Nakkin on the line too as well. Oh, yeah? All right. Hey, Michael, what's up? Hey, Dave. you hear me? Yeah, what's going on? Awesome, man. Hey, I called to give you a hard time. Okay. Okay, so, uh, you know the person who had the dust mite
+
+[5:02] allergy, and you were talking to him about how, uh, when you start to feel a reaction coming out, a lot of
+
+[5:07] times you'll just take some Benadryl and see what happens. At least for me, that's true. Yeah, yeah. So, I have some experience with this too much, in fact, because my wife has an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts and tree nuts, and
+
+[5:18] I've been to the ER with her probably 15 times in the past 10 years, because restaurants are really shitty about knowing what they have
+
+[5:25] nuts and unfortunately. Right. But, um, She's been this sort of the same as you. Like, she's been having these reactions since she was a little kid, and she's gotten pretty casual about them, and would often just take some Benadryl kind of way to see what happens, and, you know, maybe we'll go in, maybe we won't. And then just last year, there was a 13 year old girl at a camp, if
+
+[5:44] it was in New Jersey or something like that, who did exactly that. She'd been having reactions her whole life. She kind of knew how strong they were or weren't. I had a rice crispy bar that turned out to have peanuts in it. Took some Benadryl, thought she was fine, went to bed and never woke up. Oh my god. So it's, it really is tempting as it is to become casual about it. What can actually, like one reaction can just get out of control and you don't even know and it's not even necessarily dose specific or whatever. So, you really should just always use that appetite and go in, sucks. Yeah, it does. Yeah, that sucks. I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess that's true, and my reactions could get worse, and I guess I wouldn't know it either. I mean, I've never had, luckily for me, it's simply that my throat closes up. It's not that, um, it's not that I go into full body shut down, you know, or, uh, or, you know,
+
+[6:30] but yeah, no, that's excellent, excellent advice and very sobering. Any good news to give me, Michael? Good news? Shoot. Yeah, we're having all times of fun back here in Seattle. Come see us. Oh, next time, you know, I need some reason. Maybe the book tour will send me out that way. Who knows? That's right. Yeah, I ordered me a book and also Lorraine, the social media person here at Chest
+
+[6:52] Ups, just told me she ordered a book for our in-house library, so we are excited to see the cocktail book,
+
+[6:57] man. Oh nice. Hey, speaking of in-house library, did you hear that food arts closed? Sad. I said, you know, you know, for food arts magazine, which was kind of like, you know, it's actually my 1st what made you think of it was an in-house library this morning. When I heard they closed down, like they had a huge because they were sent every advanced cookbook, you know, advanced copies of cookbooks for reviews for the
+
+[7:18] past probably, yeah, for the past like 30 years. And I used to go into their conference room was the library where all their stuff was. And this morning, I had been thinking about how kind of sad it was because Michael Batterbury, you know, and Ariana, the 2 founders of it, they got me my 1st job in food.
+
+[7:34] And, um, and they've been very helpful for, you know, 1000000s of people, not many, but many
+
+[7:39] people like Patrick, for instance, and, uh, and I was just thinking this morning, I got up, I was like, I wonder what's happened to all those books. I hope they're donating them to some, you know, library or culinary school or something like
+
+[7:49] that because it's an amazing collection I had. yeah Maybe you better get over there. You could put a, you know, library wallet booker in Dax. Well, I would feel a little bit mercenary being like, oh, hey, and your books, you know what I mean? That's something that Nastasia would accuse me of doing, right? She like, Nastasia likes to think of me as this kind of just evil person. So she would, that's how she would hope that I would do. She like thinks of me that way, right? Stas? Well, you you distract them and nostalgia can make off of the books. from a dog. Wow, now Michael's calling you us guys. like the sneak thief. That's kind of right, though. I guess the more you know her anymore, she's a sneak people. Anyway, well, thanks for that word of caution because I definitely don't want to be responsible for someone not going into the hospital when they should.
+
+[8:30] And it is true that these things, your severity can change at any time, correct? Yeah, that seems to be the truth. said the truth. Yeah, someday the doctors will figure this out and we'll kick the whole dang thing. You know, they're doing a lot of really interesting work on it where they sensitize you with absolutely micro doses over a long period of
+
+[8:47] time and they can at least get you to the point where you don't die. Yeah, I mean, McGee's what keeps on saying he's going to work on that with because he's shellfish allergies and he's going to, he keeps on saying he's going to work on it. I mean, mine are so, you know, specific and mild that I don't think it's worth, you know, messing with. Um, but if I had something as pervasive and dangerous as a nut allergy, maybe I'd give it a
+
+[9:08] shot. know what I mean? Yeah, I suppose you don't really run into cherries randomly be in them things, huh? No, not so much. I mean, at certain times of year I do, and then if they're cooked, it's fine, unlike, you know, peanuts, which don't appear to be destroyed by the processing. No, at all. Yeah, like, I've had cooked cherries and not died, you know, so, so that's, uh, that's good. And again, like I say, for me, it's like, you know, it's fairly mild. It's just like the throat closing, which is only not mild because you can't breathe anymore and you need the oxygen, but it's not
+
+[9:35] the, you know what I'm saying? It's like you need the oxygen, but other than that, I'm fine. Yeah, to me, the throat clothing doesn't sound mild. I'd be upset with my throat was closed, but I hear you that you feel comfortable, so that's good. Yeah, well, people would think it's people think it's hilarious because I have like a sweet, sweet Donald Duck voice when it happens. I sound just like Donald Duck until just before it starts to fully close up. So it's an amusing way to go. For other people. Yeah, well, uh, let's uh, let's keep your around for a few more years. That's awesome. All right, thanks, brother. Thanks for calling in. All right, bye. Take care. Thanks. Hey Jack, do you have a reverb button over there? Yes. Sweet. Keep it on for a second. We're doing a new session called Cooking Issues Shout outs. Yes, that's it. That's all I need. We have some shout outs that we have to do, we got to use that more often. We got to do like a month. Can we announce like a monster truck rally? Yeah, you just give me the heads up. And we'll do the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday for all of those. Do they have those styles? Do they have Sunday, Sunday, Sunday in California? I don't remember when it's been too long. Well, you would remember. I would remember. Sunday. We gotta do it. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Yep, now you don't remember that? Jack, you remember that, right? of course. Yeah, okay. Anyway, that's when monster truck rallies always are. They on Sundays. Yeah, I've heard them. I don't think that they were in California. You know, there's 2 kinds of monster truck rallies. Well, there's probably a 1000000000 now, but when I was a kid, there's 2 kinds. I went to the wrong kind. Like there's the one with the monster trucks that drive over things and crush
+
+[11:04] things and that's what everyone wants to see, right? And then there's ones where they just pull crap. that's the one I went to. And then there's also the demolition derbies where a bunch of beat up, crappy cars just like crash into each other. Do you know I've never seen one and it's kind of like a dream? Really? I would love to see one. multiple as a kid. the best. I would love, love, love, love to see a demolition derby. I mean, they still do the same thing. I know I used to know about it. They fill the doors with concrete and whatnot. So sweet, so sweet. Anyway, okay. So our shout out, back to our shout outs. Our good buddy, Daniel Rosenberg, who, you know, I don't know his exact title over there. He's at the Harvard, and he's in, there's a building over there called the Science Center, which is kind of cool because they have all the sciences are in there, and they have a demonstration services thing, and Daniel's the guy there, you know, and so we're, we go there all the time, and he has control over all
+
+[11:57] the, wheat, wheat, sweet demos that all of the science classes have uh, at Harvard. There's like one or 2 like, you know, moron programs at Harvard that don't use the science
+
+[12:07] building, and I'm sure they feel incredibly weak and stupid because they don't have Daniel doing their sweet, sweet demos because he can set up, he can set up
+
+[12:14] anything. You're like, hey, I want to throw some sodium into some water and like, you know, have it explode. He's like, got you covered. Remember that when he did that for us? It was so sweet, so awesome. He was a little mad at us last year when we didn't give him the information for the demo we were going to
+
+[12:28] do and then set off the fire alarm and cleared out the building, but he's over it now.
+
+[12:31] He's not angry with us anymore about that, right, Stas? angry with you anymore. Anyway, so saw him last week at the, at the Harvard, and he wanted to give us a shout out because he's working with the, uh, with the Ignobel, you know, familiar with the Ignobel Prizes. It's like Nobel, but Ignoble. Yeah, yeah. The Ignobel Prize ceremony. He's involved with this year. It's kind of cool. Like they give, they give out awards to kind of non-consequential but cool science kind of things or, and like, so what you want to do is go see, and this
+
+[13:01] year it's food theme. get some food theme stuff. So he's doing some like crazy dumb s'more stuff on the on this promo video, which you should watch. And
+
+[13:09] you should watch the live webcast that they're going to have because I don't know the day. Jack, if you look up the date. Oh, all right. It's September 18th. There's a live webcast. It is the 24th 1st international Ignoble Prize ceremony. Every year, it's always the 1st, like, it's the 20, whatever, like 27th. Anyway, go look at it on improbable.com. Check out his 32nd promo for the Ignobel Prize ceremony and check it out. One of the things they have that you might find interesting. They have these things called 247 lectures where they get very eminent scientists. They come in and the thing is they have to explain in technical terms, explain, give a full technical explanation of their field in 24 seconds. Yeah. And then a 7 word summary of what they do that is understandable by any layperson, completely understandable by any layperson. So what this actually boils down to is people start trying to explain what's going
+
+[14:07] on. And in 27 seconds, they get to blow a very loud, like coach whistle in the ear of extremely eminent scientists. And then, but sometimes they come up with like really amazing definitions. Like, I forget what her name was, but some well-known biologist came up with like the most awesome definition of biology ever, and it goes like this. If it gets infected, it's biology. There it is, biology, 7 words. Sweet. Anyways, 2nd shout out. Greg Miller, I guess it's Mueller, right? Because it's MU, like Mueller, like with Umla, but I don't know if once you're in America, whether they just go with
+
+[14:40] Mueller. What do you think? Mullah. Anyway, wrote in. How about a shout out? We are doing an event in Lyon in January with Chef George Castaneda, and it's called the Catering Cup, International Catering Cup, another ICC, another freaking ICC, International Culinary Center, International Chef Conference, International Culinary Cup,
+
+[15:01] Catering Cup. Anyways, it's kind of cool. It's a competition, and this is the 1st year. It's every 2 years, I think, and this is the 1st year that the Americans are competing. In fact, so new that the weasels up at InternationalCateringCup.com didn't put the American team on their page yet, but we're
+
+[15:19] there, America. We're going. So you should check it out and support it cateringcup.com forward slash English. And the shtick is this. Each team must prepare the same dishes. This year, it's 100% duck pate en crout, an exotic fruit chutney, a whole stuffed, a whole trout stuffed with cod and scallops with a cold emulsion sauce. An item made from 3 types of pork. That's so much less specific than the other ones. Hey, I want you, I want a freaking, I want a trout stuffed with cod and scallops and then, you know, 3 kinds of pork. Like, what is that? It's nuts, French. And a dessert using dark chocolate tartlets, Victoria pineapple. What is it, Victoria pineapple? Don't know. Coconut and lime. So, uh, check out uh, cateringcup.com forward slash English. And if you happen to be, it's not slashing slash EN. And if you happen to be American, Vote for us. And you can't really vote. It's like one of those things where they where they test you on, like, 1st of all, taste, and 2nd of all, presentation. I don't know which ones first. Hopefully it's taste. And then like, you know, cleanliness and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know whether they judge you on your spiel or not. That's the way cocktail competitions are. They just judge you on spiels. Spiels. Speaking of cocktails. Just got back from the, from Chicago, like I said, was doing, um, Mod Max with Rick
+
+[16:36] Bayless to set up this thing called Mod Max, which is, I guess, modern Mexican, where they get some Mexicans. Some people, Americans doing Mexican stuff and then just some knuckleheads like me coming over there and working with Mexican ingredients and kind of talking about how these ingredients and their techniques have place in modern, you know, modern
+
+[16:51] kitchens. interesting. Not modern necessarily meaning kind of like what we do, but just kind of like contemporary. Uh, had uh, some really interesting stuff over there. was at Frontera, Top of the Bambo, and had delicious banana leaf ice cream, which is good.
+
+[17:04] It's like almost like it was delicious. Anyway, I don't know. Oh, and I also got to go to aviary, but I don't really have time to talk about going to
+
+[17:11] aviary, but had a lot of cocktails. I'm not able to finish them all because of just so many cocktails. And it's a sign, I think, of how adult I've become that did not even attempt to finish all the
+
+[17:20] cocktails. Well, that's Damon Bolte's like number one piece of advice when you go to a cocktail event. He said, never, ever finish a cocktail. Even Damon Boldy says that? Damon Bolty says that. So if he says it, you know. Yeah, I mean, those of you who don't personally know Damon
+
+[17:33] Bolte, let me just say the man knows how to squirrel away some liquor inside himself. So, right? Right? And he's one of those freaking, like, culinary twins here
+
+[17:44] in, uh, what does his brother do does? Rolling Stone? Or spin magazine? Writer? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, so he's at least at least only one half of the twins are in culinary stuff here, but there's like so many culinary twins, and then when you see like the
+
+[18:01] one, and you don't know what's the other here. I can think of like 4 or 5 sets of twins here in the New York area. It freaks me out. I mean, whatever. not his fault. Right? Anyway. Okay. Uh, Kyle Payton wrote in, says, can I get more information on the bottle style carbonation setup you have for
+
+[18:17] Home Seltzer? Oh, or not, I have, I have an actual inline carbonator. Well, Rudy Tooty for me. But, uh, if you want to do bottle style carbonation, which in the end is much more, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Much more economical than using a soda stream, right? I mean, it's a little more of a pain in the butt, but it's much more economical. What you need is you need a CO2 tank. Now it depends on how your counters are. Some people can fit a full £20 CO2 tank under their counter. If you can't, right? Like, I can't because mine goes underneath where my sink is, and so it just doesn't clear. But most of you can, if you have a full cabinet depth, you can fit it in. Remember to strap it down, you don't want to have it fall over it. Don't keep a lot of CO2 tanks because if one breaks, you don't want it to asyxiate you by opening the stuff up, but yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. Anyways, you can get a 20 pounder. You can get a uh, a 5 pounder, which is a lot smaller, but there's a little known uh, and little used uh, £10 unit. So what I recommend is going to Mark Powers, who they're in Guntersville, Alabama, and they can sell you. They have the best price on like the regulators, the hoses, and the fittings. So all you need is, and they'll sell you an empty tank and you get it refilled at a welding supply shop in your area. Um, And you can usually just drive, if you live in the suburbs, you can drive your, uh, in the trunk, drive
+
+[19:35] in and swap them out and it's relatively inexpensive. you know, everything depends on where you live, but a £20 CO2 tank can do like 400 gallons of
+
+[19:43] cell serving costs less than $20. Okay, to swap out. So you get your empty tank, you go on a high pressure regulator, one that because the lower pressure ones that are made for beer, don't go quite high enough, especially if you're going to use things like cocktails. You need to also buy, you don't need it, but I would highly recommend buying what's called a regulator
+
+[19:59] cage, and it's a metal thing that goes around your regulator so that the gauges don't get smashed.
+
+[20:03] You can buy very expensive gauges, uh, that kind of don't get smashed, but in general, there are 100s of dollars, whereas the regulator I buy is more like
+
+[20:11] $30. It's a tap right. And it's very cheap because it's made to, you know, be used by every person who has like a brew, you know, a beer
+
+[20:18] setup in their in their restaurant. So they sell 8 bajillion of them and they're consequently fairly cheap. They're not quite as accurate, maybe, but you probably don't care. What you do care is that they're not they're fairly fragile. So I would get those cages that you just bolt onto the back. I would also buy an extra plastic washer for the
+
+[20:36] high pressure CO2 washer and the reason the tank washer. And the reason is there's a little, um, there's usually a little rubber thing on a jiggy on the regulator that seals with the high pressure on the CO2, uh, tank, but sometimes this can degrade.
+
+[20:49] And if you have one of the plastic white things zip tied to your regulator at all times, then no matter what happens, you are able to seal your tank properly and you're good. So I'll get one of those. And then use a bunch of flex hose. I use one quarter beverage hose, which is it's like braided reinforced polyethylene hosing. That stuff never breaks. The stuff that people will sell that's more flexible. They consider better for carbonating because it's not as stiff. I've seen break a bunch of times. They unreinforced stuff, like the red specifically tubing that people sell. So I'd stay away from that. And there's a hose barb fitting that goes on and you want, there's a little flare, it's a flare fitting, a
+
+[21:26] flare, CO2 washer, and then I would take it directly to a barbed, uh, uh, gas fitting, which is
+
+[21:33] great, the gray fitting from a beverage uh, from a ball lock connector, the old stuff. And you can get this all from Mark Power, and you want some clamps that clamp down on it. You can use a little hand hose clamps that screw down, but I hate them. I hate them. I don't use them. I use what we're called odacre clamps, which are little little things that crimp down, have ears, and they never come off, and they don't cut my hands, and I don't hate
+
+[21:53] them, like I hate the other ones, but if you're only making one rig, just use the ones that I hate, they have a little screw, but man, I hate them.
+
+[21:59] And uh, after that, that's everything you need, except for the carbonator cap, which you can get on Amazon.com, it's called
+
+[22:04] Liquid Bread is the corporation that makes it, the carbonator cap, and some soda bottles, which you can save.
+
+[22:09] Make sure that the liquid is extremely cold. You can even throw a couple smash a couple small chunks of ice into the bottle when you're carbonating because carbonating raises the temperature of the stuff slightly. Make so it's ice cold. You can even have some ice in the bottle. fill it 2 thirds to 3 with water, 3 quarters of the way through. Fill, squeeze all the air out, screw the carbonator cap on, carbonated at like 35, depending on 40
+
+[22:31] PSI. Don't turn it upside down because there's no check valve in this system. You don't want water rolling in. Shake it, vent it once, shake it again, throw it in your fridge, and seltzer for days. What do you think? Okay. How about a quick break? Ooh, okay, quick break. coming back with quicking issues.
+
+[23:18] So today's episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by the restaurant Wilma Jean, serving delicious fried chicken and other southern food comfort classics, great burgers too. They're located at 345 Smith Street, and these are the people behind Seersucker and Nightingale 9. So again, that's Wilma Jean, Wilma Jean, 345.com. One more announcement. We've got a great event, the Silver Snail, 25 years of slow
+
+[23:59] food will be hosted by Slow Food USA Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizza. It's been 25 years since Carlo Petrini and a group of activists launched a peaceful revolution to defend regional traditions, good food, gastronomic
+
+[24:11] pleasure, and a slow pace of life. The slow food movement has since evolved into a comprehensive approach to food that recognizes the strong connections between
+
+[24:19] plate, planet, people, politics and culture. Today, this movement involves 1000s of projects and 1000000s of people in more than 160 countries worldwide. Join us for a dialogue between Slow Foods founder Carlo Petrini and Locavor activist Alice Waters as they reflect on the evolution of the food movement and all things slow.
+
+[24:39] That's Friday, October 3rd from 1130 to 230 p.m. at Roberta's. You know what's weak, Jack? You got all those peas, and then you had to throw in culture. You had all those freaking peas. Give me those, give me the peas again. Plate, planet, people, politics and culture. Yeah, to hell. Can you, like, there's no word for culture to start with a P? I mean, you should either change some of the other ones so you don't have all the peas. And then you're like, oh, sweet, this dude's only using peas. You know what I mean? And then it's like, I mean, I would even like, I would even just be like, and culture. People, politics, and Petrini. Oh, yeah, you got Petrini working with people, planets, people, planets, plates, politics, culture. Right? I mean, just do it. See what people say. I mean, like you need to see. It's like, I mean, you need to pee. The C just is not working for you, bro. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I could be wrong. I've got a caller on the line. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. How you doing? Good, how are you? All right. I have a question about the skiers all, and changing my shipping address, because I'm moving to a new address since I, since I funded on a Kickstarter. Okay, where are you in the US? Are you abroad? In the US. Okay. Amazon already has all of the addresses. We've shipped all the addresses like to Amazon. We might be able to still change it, though. Is that true? Yeah we can change it. Yeah, but Amazon already has all the addresses and all of the, all of the Sears all have been built. There might still be time if you email, uh, the cooking issues, uh, email like. I'll just email Sears all at bookerindex.com. If it goes to your old address, does that mean you're never going to see it or is this just more convenient? If it goes to the old address in the next 2 weeks, we're okay, if it goes after that, then I'll never see it. I want to email, email, sears all at bookerindax.com, and we'll push through email today and we'll push through the change with Amazon and we'll send confirmation now because we're
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+[26:42] going to send a confirmation email on shipping along with the address, right? Amazon does Amazon sends. Amazon's going to send you an email based, but not everyone's success there. Make sure you, we have the email with it so that we can add the email to the, um, not everyone gave us their, Is that true or is everyone have an email? Everyone has an email, says, put it there, and I can go out the hurry because they already have all of
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+[27:00] the, all the shipping information. Perfect. And Netflix and Dash A-N-D? Yeah, A-N-D-D-A-X. And, you know, and again, like there, I'm probably the, actually, Nastasia is probably the most frustrated. Yeah. Yeah, I'm 2nd most frustrated and then maybe Drew, our partner's 3rd most frustrated. Uh, uh, but the Sears alls have all been built. And I can't, I mean, I'm supposed to not really, but they're literally just waiting for a reapproved instruction sheet. Uh, so anyways, uh, they are, they're all built and rest assured, they are, in fact, I personally have seen a 1000 of them. There's a 1000 of them sitting in Booker and Dax lab right now. Anyways, you don't want me to talk about a status? Well, I'm sure all the New Yorkers will come tear down the walls if they know they're sitting in the lab. Well, don't do that. But anyway, so that's the story and it's still possible. And then after everyone gets there, everyone gets their fulfillment off of Kickstarter and ShopStarter because obviously they come first, then the remainder from this shipment are going to go on Amazon. But we're not going to put up the pre-order before we ship, right? We can't because it's media only gets pre-order status. We're not media. Okay, cool. Anyway, as soon as, as soon as Amazon then starts shipping them out to, uh, the fulfillment stuff, then I want to go on Amazon. Hey, hey, Dave, is the book going to be out at Star Shots, by the way? When is Star Chefs this year? When is Star Chefs? Book comes out like 1st week of November, like November 8th or November ninth. I think it's 1st week of November, like November 3rd. So if Starshift is after that, then the book will be out. But I don't know. Oh, it's like the week before. like the last week of October. Busted. I don't know. I'll see I'll see. They will exist in the in the country, but I don't know whether or not they're allowed to do. Maybe they are. I'll talk to the publishers. If their publishers are allowed to do it. you know. Yeah, because last year, uh, Alex Binaki had been took out a week early. Really? Well, I know that that might not have been with Norton. I know currently they're doing some work with Norton, which is my publisher, but I don't know whether that book was with Norton, but I'll talk to
+
+[29:12] them because that would be fun, right? Be fun. I'll pick one. I'll pick one up from the bar, will you? Yeah, yeah. All right. So we'll see. I'll see. I'll look into it. I'll definitely look into it. Okay, cool. All right, thanks. Thanks a lot. Uh, okay. Now, had a question in from Andrea. Hi there. Um, I'm from Germany. I listen to your show regularly. I have a question regarding baking without eggs. I am not a vegan, but I don't tolerate eggs, and all my attempts at baking cakes have been awful. Bunt and sponge cakes turn out extremely moist and heavy and not light and fluffy at all. This might be okay in a fudgy, a fudgy brownie-like cake, but
+
+[29:49] I am looking for a sponge slash stiffon cake. It's usually just made with eggs, flour, sugar, and baking powder, and all that can be used for layering cakes
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+[29:56] with, and all that can be used for layering cakes, whipping cream, or Swiss rolls, kind of, or angel food cake, but with the yolks also being used. I've tried various egg replacers, but they don't work well either. Do you have any idea and a good recipe for that? Thanks for your help. Andrea. Okay, well, I mean, there's a number of things that eggs do, right? Uh, so the yolks provide, so if you're looking for like the, the, the tenderness, like provision that you get out of things like yolks,
+
+[30:21] right? Then you can add, I guess you can just supplement the fat for the fat that's in the egg yolks, and you could probably add some emulsifiers, like soy lettuce and something like this, and probably get some of those effects. Um, but, um, the other thing that the eggs have in them is protein, which provides a structure for things like uh,
+
+[30:41] age food cakes and sponge cakes uh, as their setting. So it aerates, right? Because it can hold air, and then it sits there holding its structure until it's baked, at which point you form an actual
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+[30:51] interlocked cooked starch and protein network that holds the structure of the cake, you know, until you eat it,
+
+[30:57] right? So, the question is, how do you get around this? So some people try to make, if you look on the internet, which I'm not going to endorse
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+[31:05] any recipes because I've never made one, but if you look on the internet, some people used sweetened condensed milk in their
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+[31:10] flourless, I mean, sorry, flour, eggless, a sponge cake stuff, presumably because the super thick structure of that allows the batter to hold its leavening and structure better as it's
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+[31:22] baking. So there's what they're fundamentally doing, I would guess, is just increasing the viscosity of
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+[31:27] their of their batter. There might also be something because of the extra milk protein that's in it. don't know. They're also jacking the sugar in it, but whatever. I guess they're reducing the sugar for the rest of the stuff. presumably that's an increased viscosity effect. Maybe an effect from the protein in the milk. I don't know. If you're using an egg replacer, egg replacers, I think I have to look up specifically what kind of egg replacer you're using, there, by the way, is
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+[31:50] there are these folks in California who are working, and I think there's 2 separate companies, one of which already has one
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+[31:57] product, I think, in Whole Foods, but they're working on direct egg replacers that satisfy kind of all of the culinary functions of
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+[32:05] eggs. I, again, have never used it. I know Bill Gates is sponsoring one to the tune of 1000000s, 10000s of dollars. You have to wait for that guy to come out. But a lot of times what they're doing is, A, they're adding viscosity. Sometimes they're going to add protein, but probably not usually. And they're going to add some sort of holding capacity for structure with something like Xanthan, something that forms kind of a, um, something that can form kind of a little bit of a, uh, a gel, like a weak gel, uh, but it's not going to be like too crazy with
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+[32:33] uh, binding messing with water. So you can add these kinds of things like heavy xanthan, makes it snotty for an egg replacer. But as you say, you haven't had a lot of luck with that. I have used in the past, Johnny Azini and I, years ago, developed a, um, like
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+[32:46] a sponge cake, aglis, uh, actually like age food cake almost, but it ended up being more like a sponge cake that used a product called methyl cell, uh, methyl cell, which is
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+[32:55] a, uh, I think we were using. There's 2 different varieties. We were testing the SG, which is a super geling series, and the A series. I don't know if we published it. I have to look online for like, and he might have published it on his own later, but it was Methocell-based, kind of Aglis, angel food batter that we put through
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+[33:11] Anias, Thernisi, through a siphon, for aeration. And the main, the main thing, you know, shtick with that was, is that methacell, when you heat it, it sets. It's like one of the few hydrocolloids that as you heat it, it forms a gel, uh, because it actually loses its ability to
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+[33:25] be uh, to use its, loses its solubility and gels out as it's heated. So we would spray it out of an easy whipper or the batter. We'd spray it out into a pan. It would be pre-aerated. You throw it in an oven and the heat of the oven instead of expanding and popping, you know, the gel, which is what would normally happen in an oven. actually sets the gel. And so you would have these cakes that were set, and then as they cooked, the actual starch in there would be enough to hold this thing together. And then it would, and then it would be fine. The problem with it is, is that methacell responds poorly to milk. So you want to do a non, uh, non-milk-based uh, recipe if you're going to, if you're going to do that. Another thing you might want to do, and I've never tried it before, but you take the, whatever the water base of the eggs would be for whipping, right? And make a gel and fluid gel with it. The reason I use gel anis is it doesn't break so much. So you then use a gel and fluid gel, you blend it. So it's, I would do it relatively thick. And then that structure, if you whip it or, you know, you have some way to whip it or aerate it beforehand or even with that will hold its structure as it bakes and won't break. I haven't tried it again, but that's something you might want to try. Another thing is you could add extra thickening power to it in the form of other viscosity building
+
+[34:39] agents. You know, I don't I don't know exactly which one you want to use or what you have access to, but, you know, that's in general what people are trying to do. Sorry, I don't have anything more specific. What do you think says? Yeah, all right. Uh, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Um, Philip Wolf right in. He saw us at the lecture last week at the Harvard he wrote in, but he had actually interesting thing. One of the things we talked about was that McGee and I had, and Nils actually had done a course where we were cooking octopus after octopus, after octopus, and we were trying to disprove the fact that a cork
+
+[35:09] in an octopus makes a difference, but the fact of the matter is, is that if you use enough corks, we actually did repeatedly get a difference between cork and non-cork cooked octopus, and we didn't know
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+[35:18] why, and Philip had some interesting things where he had said that he had read something and done some tests where change in temperature during cooking also affects the texture of octopus.
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+[35:28] So it's something to look at. But he had some questions. Um, One, uh, what's the best thing you've ever put uh, putting into and gotten out of a roto app? I think the best thing I've ever done. Um, did you ever have the cheese course does? No. The best thing I've ever done isn't really a distillation, isn't really about like some fancy distillation, but the best thing was we took port, nice port, ruby, and distilled it into a port
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+[35:56] brandy, and then threw away the water, and then distilled it down to a port syrup that had never been heated.
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+[36:02] And pork syrup that's never been heated is ridiculous. Ridiculous. And down to the, like, like down to about 66 bricks, like maple syrup style, all done, you know, kind of room temperature. We then did the same thing to a Madeira, Malmsey Madeira. And that syrup, also stupid, stupid good. And then we did it to a bum de Venice, you know, dessert wine. Like amazing syrups and brandies all. And then took 3 small, chilled the brandies, did not, well, kind of room temp, little coal, like white
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+[36:33] went in, 3 brandies in small tasting cups, and then cheese courses. So we did with the um, with the uh, port.
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+[36:43] We did Stilton because duh. And then with the Stilton syrup. And I forget what we, what I paired. We did a garnish as well, but I forget what we did with the garnish on that one.
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+[36:52] And then we did cheddar, uh, like a really nice, like Montgomery, was at the time, Montgomery was the best cheddar you can get. I know if it still is, but it was Montgomery's cheddar, uh, with the uh, Momsey, uh, Madeira, and then
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+[37:04] that, and the, and the syrup. And that one we did with flash pickled, um, flash pickled onions, like red onions, which made cheddar and onions, duh, duh, right? Duh. And then, uh, we did, uh, the bum de Venice. I wish I could remember all the garnishes. One of the garnishes we did, and this might have been with the port, was we did, um, we did, uh, pressure cooked, uh, pressure
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+[37:29] cooked, uh, barley with uh, coffee. I think it was with that one, maybe. Anyway. And then with the Bum de Venice, we did a really delicious Pecorino, Toscano, and this here, but I forget what the
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+[37:42] garnish is. We'll have to look it up. That was good. That was the best thing I ever done on Rota app. And then, you know, other ones are just all kinds of random distillations that I like, ah, habanero, like doing habanero in the road of app was always good because it got rid of the spice and it was kind of a unique thing that you couldn't really do any other
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+[37:57] way. So I also like that. That was good. Um, Two, have you ever used liquid nitrogen, uh, liquid nitrogen gel technique to put shard, uh, shards of gels into a foie gras
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+[38:08] torton. If not, it's super cool, especially different herb gels, pretty cool, uh, with uh, and chemo too. So here's what we're talking about. At the lecture. I was talking about how I think Sam Mason is like an ice cream genius, because it's true. And Oddfellows, he kind of did this in Brooklyn. He did this technique where he took things like jellies and other things,
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+[38:25] froze them with liquid nitrogen and then shattered them and folded them into his ice creams as they were being made.
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+[38:30] So instead of having swirls of crap, you would have like discrete pockets of crap inside the ice cream, because then as it tempers out, right, of course, it turns to its normal jelly consistency, which is pretty cool. But apparently you can do it in other things as well. And when are you opening a Booker and Dax, Cambridge Outpost? Well, sadly, I don't know. I don't know if we're ever getting. Are we ever going to open another one, Stas? It would be great if we could have been there. I don't know. I like it, actually, in the Boston Cambridge area. You like it over there? Yeah? she's like, whatever, I don't care. I hate it everywhere. I'm an equal opportunity hater. Where do you not hate it? Where do you not hate it? Cambridge. Yeah, where do you not where do you not hate it? What's the name of a place you don't hate? I like a lot of places. Okay. That wasn't an answer, though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was not was not an answer. was not was not an answer. Uh, okay. And on similar vein, Adrian Blackpool wrote in, hey, Hammer, only writes to you. Don care about me. I didn't I didn't order the 1st generation of Searzal after the 1st round is there. Second one planned already. Yeah, we're just going to keep making them as long as people keep buying them. The problem is, if you're in the UK, which it says you are, We're only going to sell them in the future on Amazon.us. So you're going to have to figure out some way to get them to like drop ship it overseas because, right? Yeah. But yes, the answer is yes. And could you speak to my 2nd book? I don't even know what my 2nd book is going to be about, but, you know, my editor, Maria
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+[39:51] Guarnashelli, is anxious for us to figure out. When did I tell her I was going to figure that out? First week of October? You think that's going to happen? No, no, no, no, no. And is there anything else in the booker in Dax's pipeline? Answer, yes, but I don't want to talk about anything future until we get these seers alls out the door. I have nothing, nothing publicly is on my mind until the sears alls are out the door, right? Yeah. And finally, could you give any warning for UK dates, so I can plan sick leave, because I presume you're any dates you're going to
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+[40:17] be, or in London, because they're in Lancashire, UK. Yeah, I mean, I hope to come to London sometime for the for the book thing because we can write it off, right? And the last question, how do I clean A, a rotovap? Uh, I think I answered someone else on this or, I don't know, maybe you were writing in. Road evaporator for those of you that don't know is piece of equipment to do. It's a lab piece of equipment that does distillation under vacuum. So that allows you to do very gentle distillations. When you're cooking, it allows you to do distillations at very low temperature and without oxygen, which means that you can do very gentle, awesome things. However, they're expensive and so people buy them used. And if you buy them used, you have the problem that really, really disgusting things have gone through them. So the short answer is, is I can never guarantee that your road of app will be safe. However, you need to clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean,
+
+[41:02] clean, and clean some more. I would boil it a couple of times, all the glassware, I would put it through an ultrasonic
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+[41:08] bath if you have it. I would clean it with as many solvents as you can get, starting with the least like food grade and working towards like, you know, like pure
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+[41:16] ethanol, if you can. And then water. I would then do some distillation runs through it. But the whole thing, all the grease, everything off of it, do some whole, do some distillation runs with
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+[41:25] it, to further get into every nook and cranny that you might somehow have missed, um, and just clean, clean, clean, you know, like beyond the
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+[41:33] fact, beyond the point when there's no smell anymore. You just have no idea what they put through it. You know what I'm saying, stuff? You have no idea unless they tell you. Uh, okay. Um, We have Lucas wrote in. Lucas, love Lucas. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Wyatt, although Wyatt hasn't come back. doesn't like us. Oh, hey, why, you weren't here earlier? Nope. He was late. All right. Well, there you go. Hey, oh, Lucas gave you a shout out. So, howdy. My all-time favorite food is Bouillabais. Julia Child, that's an, I like Bully Base. you like it? What do you like better? Bouillabaisse, or you like San Francisco Cuppino style? I don't know. Ciopino, the Ciopino's got that spicy sausage and stuff. And they serve with the garlic bread next to it. I think I like ciapino better, although I like bully bass. Anyway, my all-time favorite food is bully base. Julia Child advocates making stock by simmering less expensive parts of fish, but never boiling it. This got me thinking of lobster stock, which when done in pressure cooker is unpalatable. Could these 2 things be related? And shall I make my fish stocks in a water bath well below 100 C? Okay. Uh, my answer to this. I think it's 2 separate things. The reason I don't think she wants you to boil the fish is because she doesn't want it to get like too clouded up with like
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+[42:43] weird like bull crap from the bones and less expensive parts. I think that's the thing against the boiling with the fish. Whereas lobster, if you do lobster stock, i.e. with the bone, with the shells, uh, in a pressure cooker, you just get too much of that calcium shell note out.
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+[42:59] I think anytime with lobster. I think a lot of people overcooked their lobster stuff, when they're using shells to get flavors out of, because there's a certain point at which you're not extracting flavor,
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+[43:07] just extracting that just shell note, and I hate that. So I think that that's what that is. I don't know that, um, I mean, I've never, have I ever tested doing, I don't think I've ever tested temperatures on fish stocks before in a circular. I mean, obviously I've done a lot of tests with kombu, but not with fish. There's probably a difference. Um, but I don't know. I don't know that give it a try. Let me know. I don't know, but I think that those 2 things are not necessarily related. Um, And what I do with the bullet bays anyways, I always, I always buy like usually whole fish, fillet them out and then use all this, all the, all the bones and crap for the stock. And then I usually do my... I don't usually do any of that stuff traditionally. What I'll do is I'll take, uh, for instance, like, uh, all my, I'll take 1st all of my, uh, I'll sweat the onions, then I'll do the wine, then I'll do all of my, uh, like, hard, like, clams and whatnot, steam them
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+[44:00] open, get the juices out, pull the shells out, and then shuck and and reserve because I don't really like throwing the shells in. Do you like throwing? don't like throwing the shells in, right? I reserve. And then I, and then I'll usually, um, I
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+[44:12] usually like quickly cook the filets and steam like over that and then remove and then throw the bones in, make the stock out of that reserve and then add all the meat together to last 2nd after I cook the veg out, but
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+[44:22] whatever. That's a little different. Each time I used to go to Booker and Dax, my girlfriend, I pointed at the doer in the front of the bar and tell her we need to buy one at home because I cannot keep one in my Manhattan apartment.
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+[44:32] No, tell her that we need to buy a home to have the liquid nitrogen. good reason to have liquid nitrogen because I can't have one in my Manhattan apartment. Now I have a home and a couple of questions. How large a doer should I get? I imagine using it daily for the 1st 2 months and then probably once or twice a week afterwards. If I can get a large one, how much will I lose to evaporation per week? Well, 1st of all, I mean, I know you, so like you're going to look up the safety stuff because he's like a, you know, low temperature physicist who was,
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+[44:54] you know, before he's doing what he does now. And so I looked up on Taylor Wharton, which manufacturers most of the doers, and a 180 liter doer loses about one.25% a day, which amounts to about 2.25
+
+[45:06] liters. Uh, then what they mean is one. of total capacity, not of the current capacity. because otherwise it would be like radioactive decay and it would never go dry, which is not the way it works.
+
+[45:17] 2.25 liters and 160 a liter doer loses one. 3% a day, which is roughly 2 liters. So you can see that they last, as we like to say, a good long time. And I looked up on the website. And by the way, don't believe any of these. When you get those 180s and 160s, you're in essence renting them for like $30 a month from
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+[45:36] the welding company that has them. If you buy, and the good thing is, is that when you get liquid nitrogen in that large quantity, it's relatively inexpensive.
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+[45:45] Anytime you own the doer and then have them refill it, usually they're
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+[45:49] going to charge you more. I know that's the case if they come out and do it. Now, maybe if you're out and you have a house, you can drive, obviously putting it in the trunk and not having it in the car with you, if you can drive there, you might be able to get a reasonable per liter price on a smaller doer, like a 50, a
+
+[46:02] 35 or something like this. And if you can get roughly similar prices, because we're only paying like a dollar a liter when you're getting like 180 or 200 liters or something like this. So if you can get a roughly equivalent price, so it's only costing you like 50 bucks to fill a 50 liter doer, they can also be relatively economic from a holding standpoint.
+
+[46:19] So they say, for instance, one of the companies I looked up has a what's called a static hold time of 125 liters, which is 0.4 liters a day, I think that's in general a lie. I think they radically underestimate how much you're going to lose out, especially losing out on
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+[46:31] pouring when you're pouring and all this other stuff. And the other thing to remember about a doer is that as soon as they age, they start losing
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+[46:38] more, and when they get damaged, it all, they start, and if you lose the vacuum, then you're
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+[46:42] done because it'll like lose its stuff in less than a day. So, you know, the good thing about not owning the doer, having the welding company
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+[46:50] own the doer is that then if it starts having a problem, it's their problem and not your problem. Uh, you also ask why are all diners horrible? I don't have time to answer that now. So we'll try to get to that. I remember that next week. They're not well, whatever. We'll talk about it. And then, lastly, a while back, you spoke about Colombo. Do you think he is actually married? He always talks about his wife, but she is never there. I think he is just making her up. I grew up beyond the Iron Curtain. I imagine because it's quite critical of American class society, we were allowed to watch it. It was by far my father's favorite show. Uh, usually follow with my parents arguing whether Columbia is actually married, Columbo is actually married or not. Look at this guy. There is no way he is married. By the way. And then he wanted to know if he could come to the ham tasting. didn't get this until now. I would have tried to sneak you in because I totally could have snuck you in maybe, but right, Jack, I could have snuck him in. Anyways. Um, so I like the fact that, like, this, like, this paranoid Iron Curtain, plus it's the only thing you could watch behind the Iron Curtain and somehow, see, Colombo, what's hilarious is that he is critical of class society, but to me, he's like quintessential America because he wins.
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+[47:47] You know what I mean? In the end. But as to whether or not he is married, please look up uh www.columbo dashslight.freeuk.com
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+[47:56] uh for a whole thing on uh Mrs. Columbo. Indeed, I think she does exist. And although I love the idea that there's a conspiracy that she hasn't exist, and she's just some sort of prop that he uses to kind of beat the criminals. There are a couple episodes, in particular, the one where he's on a cruise ship where Mrs. Colombo is seen by other characters in the thing. So they would have to be part of the larger conspiracy. Now, I know there are many places around the world that think Americans are capable of such kind of intense conspiracies, but I think it's only because they overestimate the general competence of people trying
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+[48:29] to, you know, do conspiracy. That's the problem. People, when people have conspiracy theories, right? The assumption is, is that somehow there are this number, large number of people out there who
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+[48:38] are a competent to make a conspiracy happen and B can then keep it secret, which is almost never the case. Because people are both talkative and incompetent in general. True. Anyway, you're like, oh, yeah. About that time. Oh, man. All right. So I have a lot of stuff that I missed. I'm going to list the stuff that I'm missing and then I will get to for the next time, all right? We're going to keep track of it too. And we're going to keep track of it. Thanks, Wyatt. But we're not what we're not taking. we're not anyway. So we had a question on regiving my thing for how to do sausages and an immersion blender from the Hashi food truck. will get to it. I don't think we got to Sam's auto life step or maybe we did last week. 2 weeks ago. I don't know. We got to figure it out. But most importantly, Christoph had a question on cooking bass. Not striped bass, but black bass, so we'll get to that next week. Alex wrote in and everyone wanted to hear about this, so it's a shame. Serious seats. our friend at Sirius Heats. Daniel Gritzer, is he still a food and wine too, right? Food and wine, but he wrote for serious seats, this article, about quality and tomatoes and refrigeration, which, you know, I got about 30
+
+[49:49] tweets, saying, what's up about this? And I have responses, but don't have the time to get into it now. Maybe we can even have Daniel on. You want to try to see if we can get them on? We'll get them on. Anyway, Daniel's a good man. And I agree with some of his points and disagree with others of them so we can we'll get him on and we'll talk about it. And Sam Geiger asked me about my ideal salad nichoise, and we'll get to that next week. If I didn't mention it, it means that somehow we don't know that we didn't answer your question, so send it back in. Oh, no, no. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening. Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills. It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else, Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible.
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+[0:00] Today's episode of Cooking Issues is brought to you by Wilma Jean, Delicious Fried
+
+[0:05] Chicken and other Southern Comfort Food Classics, Great Burgers 2, located at 345 Smith Street in Brooklyn, Wilma Jean 345 for more information.
+
+[0:15] Hi, this is Celia Kutcher, host of Animal Instinct. And you are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to your live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:46] Joined with usual Nastasia Hammer Lopez, fresh off another trip to the Harvard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. Yeah, no, I like it a lot. I also joined, well, 1st in engineering. Who do we got? You got Jack, as usual, Insley. We got a full crew back here today. Who do you got over there? We've got G, Paul, who's here, training to engineer and Wyatt Burns, who's been with us for the past few weeks. Wyatt, yeah, I'm familiar with the world. Who, for the 1st time, provided you with a list of unanswered questions. Isn't that groundbreaking? Sweet, but they, okay, listen, I don't want anyone to get ticked off here, but we have in-house, Daniel Gritzer, formerly of the Fantastic magazine, Food and Wine,
+
+[1:27] now, at Sirius Seats. Do you have a title over there or just like, you know, they're calling me culinary director. Wow, that's fucking that's a that's a high title. I didn't drop. I didn't actually drop an F bomb. Just careful. I said, for, for, was what I got to. Fantastic. Fantastic. That's it's a high title there. Yeah. So you running that thing? What does that mean? No, I'm not running things. I work with, you know, Jake Henji Lopez. Sure. He has his title is chief creative officer, right? He was. When I came on board, I think they finally decided to make things a little bit more official. So he's now managing culinary director. So he and I... we usually managing means they handle the ad side in magazine. No, like you can have like a managing editor. Doesn't managing editor handle the like the integration of ad side into edit? Well, yeah, okay. In print magazines, it's true. The managing editor does often straddle those lines a little bit. Here it just means... Yeah, they're just making up titles, aren't you? He's making making crap up. He, you know, he manages the culinary portion of the or the recipe portion, the cooking portion of the website. isn't he moving to like Botswana or something crazy? Where's he moving? If San Francisco is Botswana, yeah. I've never been to Botswana, so I can't say. have been to San Francisco. Yeah, no, he moved out he moved out to the West Coast. Yeah. Yeah. All right. like San Francisco. San Francisco is a good town, right? And it's a good place to visit the Redwoods, which are some of my favorite places in the world. That's true Yeah. Yeah. And, like, basically, all of this here in Nevada is crazy towns full of, like, crazy craziness and, like, wildfires and stuff. Really cool. I like that stuff. But that's not why we brought you here. 1st of all, why don't we tackle, we'll tackle tomatoes like midway through. You wanna get what? No, you have to say what slow food means to you. Oh yeah, there's a cool announcement here. So at Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Friday, we're having Alice Waters and Carlo Petrini here to celebrate 25 years of slow food.
+
+[3:25] It's pretty cool, right? Yeah, it's a long time. you know, right? Yeah, I mean, what do you think slow food's meant for food over 25 years? I mean, look, what year was it 25 years ago? Wow. What's that? Jeez. 86. No, no. We're a decade. 99, right? 1989, right? 1989, 89, 89. The year I graduated. 89, you're right. 89. Okay, so let's all look back to what food was like in 1989. I mean, let's look at like where the high-end, where like people who cared about ingredients and stuff, where where we were as a culture in 1989 versus where we are now. And I think what's what's interesting about it is,
+
+[4:13] is, uh, you know, even in the early 90s, like the concept of, um, kind of caring about where food came from was much more advanced than
+
+[4:21] Italy where slow food was born. much, much, much more. I mean, than it was here in the US at that time. But, you know, you look at the influence of groups like slow foods, America. Let's give a shout out to Patrick, who is, you know, Martin's one of the founders of that. Uh, you know. And I think it's done it's done a lot. It's hard to say, you know, they were there kind of at the beginning. So I think, you know, big player. What do you think, Daniel? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so many people who can be given credit for so much that's happened in the food world in the past 25 or 30
+
+[4:54] years from Alice Waters, who will be here. But the slow food movement, I think, if you look at, if you look at the state of the food world today and the things that people talk about and even the trends that some people now get annoyed with, um, in terms of them being marketing
+
+[5:11] lines. So, give me some annoying. Well, you know, everything's farm to table, and then people say, okay, well, everything's farm to table because everything comes from, you know, that kind of thing. Well, you know, like, you know, we extended that, right? It's farm to toilet now. Farm to toilet. Yeah. That's going to be the new back page of the National Glossy. Yeah, you know, remember, that's mine. Farm to toilet. Like other people, I've given it to other people, but farm to toilet. That's all me. And no, that actually fits in with like the great, you know, like American, like
+
+[5:38] American, uh, thinking about uh, diet and like the problems with American diet and food. Like one of the early people who was interested in that was, uh, the Reverend Sylvester Graham, like, you know, would not have actually enjoyed graham crackers, but was very interested in stopping us from masturbating and having excess
+
+[5:54] sex, and he thought he could do this by reducing our meat consumption to almost nil and having us eat only kind of whole, uh, you know, whole grain
+
+[6:03] breads like cooked without like external leavenings, uh, kind of like really what we would consider like poorly made products. And so like, you know, he thought that this would like de-inflame our passions, get rid of like the national problem at the
+
+[6:15] time, which was dyspepsia. So he, you know, his his conception. This is Jacksonian America now, is that dyspepsia is one of the great problems. It leads to things like adultery, masturbation, things like this, things that he sees
+
+[6:25] as actually kind of morally reprehensible. Remember that dieting in general and detoxing and I've written about this, although I've never published it. all tied in with body hate, and moralism about kind of what we what we do and what we eat and hatred of the body and of
+
+[6:42] a physical self. I'm talking to you detox people. And, um, and so, uh, you know, that he was very much interested in pooping. You know what I mean? And so like, like the early times, it was farm to toilet. So I think over the past, you know, 25 years with this farm to table stuff, we've really been ignoring the toilet part. It's, yeah, it is definitely the one part of the process that's generally ignored in the food
+
+[7:07] conversation. Only it's not, if you talk to someone and they go to a restaurant, how was it? It was good, but in the morning, oh. You know what I mean? So, I mean, people actually treat the farm to toilet movement. I think, though, that the toilet thing started in Italy too. Like, they talk about pooping and how it feels and what the food, like, it's part of everyday conversation. I agree with that, but you also don't hang out with Germans. Do Italians have the shelf in the toilet? Oh, the toilet shelf. The toilet shelf. It's for inspection. Is that what it's for? Oh, yeah. I have like to avoid backsplash. No, there's a famous book put out by a guy named Alan Dulles, Dundas, who's now dead, who did a study of, kind of, fecal expressions and fascination with toiletries in German, in German
+
+[7:55] folklore and in, you know, culture. It's a fascinating book, and it's called Life Is Like a Chicken Coop Ladder, which, you know, comes from an old German expression that I won't get into here.
+
+[8:06] But, um, yeah, it's good one. How do they inspect it once it's on the shelf? Well, that, you know, have you ever had like that style of toilet and you're like, who designed this freaking thing? It's it's like a skid machine. It's like a Skidmaster of 5000. Who designed this thing? And it's because some people like to inspect the business after it's done? It's just a terrible idea. Americans, we want the stuff to go away. There's actually another famous book. What's it called? Oh my goodness. It came out of, I think, out of Cornell. I forget the author's name. Rem Coolhouse, the famous architect, along with the graduate school of design, recently participated in the architectural Bianale for
+
+[8:42] the and one of the things they did is they had a bunch of small books, each on a room of the house, and the one that my wife bought me. Of course, was the bathroom because I have an intense fear of public restroom. I had to test them. I especially hate, listen, anyone out there who owns a restaurant or any sort of public place. Put a trash can near the door and make sure there are towels there, not just those hand
+
+[9:03] dryers because I'm going to use a towel to open the doorknob in your
+
+[9:08] door and I wish to throw that towel in a trash can because I have a mental problem that I can't touch the doorknob in a public restaurant. I'll be locked in that restroom until somebody else comes in if there's not a source of paper towels nearby or if I don't happen to have a receipt in my pocket, probably too much information. toilet paper, you can use toilet paper. Yeah, yeah, you can. like it'd have been a situation. situations. I just don't like it. Just put a towels and and a trash can by the door. you with me, Daniel on this? I'm with you. I think that they need to facilitate that for anyone who wants to use a paper towel to open the door. That's a common, common thing. Especially because I'm about to go cook your food. You know what I mean? Or I'm about to go, wouldn't you prefer that I didn't touch that doorknob? Wouldn't you prefer that? Yeah, you would. Uh, now, the, so anyway, Rim Kulow did this thing. And, you know, along with some other people. And, you know, their point is that Americans, they're focusing on, but Westerners in general, like we do
+
+[10:02] everything, uh, well, backass words. So we poop into water and wipe with dry things instead of pooping into a dry hole and wiping with wetness. And there's a fantastic book from the 70s that was redone, I think, or maybe it's late 60s and redone in the
+
+[10:18] 70s called, you know, the bathroom, and it's a complete ergonomic study of like how different cultures, like with angles, diagrams, pictures.
+
+[10:26] One of our good friends, all of our good friends in the food industry is using the squatty potty and loves it. You know that is? Really? Yeah. Like the kind they have in Japan? Well, because it's better for your, better for your muscle, put you in a squat position even when you're on a Western toilet. First of all, how 1st of all, who is it? can't. And his girlfriend made him throw it out because she was embarrassed by it. Why? Who cares? Wasn't it, like, hard plumbed into their cell? No, no, it's just like it's like a stool on either side of your thing of a jean. And your legs are like up your knees. It's a well-known fact to anyone that's been to my family's house that I'm a believer in the wet on wet, full waste of water because I have the Japanese toilet seat, which are, I think, the highest... They're the apogee of toilet
+
+[11:06] technology. I don't know why we've allowed ourselves to fall behind. I discussed this on the show many times. I wish I knew who was using his squat toilet because that's interesting information. And how do we get on? Oh, farm to toilet. Okay. Right, so the contribution of Carlo Petrini and Alice Waters. And Daniel, welcome to the Tangential Radio Hour, where we just go off on Tangents for no apparent reason. I just want to point out that I think that's the most Nastasia's ever chimed in. Oh, come on. No willingly. She loves some poop talk. He loves some poop talk. Yeah, come on. Like, because you know why? She okay. Mustachi's in the food business, right? So she actually, I'm going to give a little secret that you're not going to be mad about. You're not going to be mad about this. I'm not like, this is nothing you wouldn't be willing to stay on air. What do you not like when you go out after work? Oh, going out with food people who want to talk about food? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's, you know, now she gets to exercise the other subject. Poop. She doesn't care about religion or politics. So you got your poop and you got your reading. Right? And then there's, you know, other less polite things, but, you know, whatever. Uh, okay. So here's what I figure. Like, I think we should get, now, the reason we have Daniel here today is because as, uh, we've said many, I've said many times, is that tomatoes, refrigeration, with
+
+[12:20] a caption of, I think, like grape tomatoes and whatnot, which I don't really care about because I don't think it really degrades the taste of the seed section so much,
+
+[12:26] but, and there's very little pulp in one of those grape tomatoes. And so, like, I've always stored those in the fridge because why the hell not. But I've always said, storing tomatoes in the fridge, uh, enemy of quality,
+
+[12:38] and, uh, Daniel came out with a series of the articles on, uh, on
+
+[12:43] serious seats, basically telling me to, not me personally, but people like me to shove it. And but it's more nuanced than that. So we're going to get into the Great Tomato smackdown. We got to get some reverb on that next time. When we come back out of the, we come back out of it. You try it again. The great Tomato SmackDown. Tuesday. Anyway, maybe we'll do that after the 1st break. You know what I'm saying? And so I feel that like, you know, I read all your posts on it, so we'll get into a little bit now. And this is going to give you time during the 32nd commercial break to read all 6000 words or whatever it is of tomato technology that you have. What is it, like 5000 words? don't even know. Hey, look, you even look. Just see, this came out like a waterfall. I know. People kept asking for more. Niagara Falls. Well, yeah. telling me I was wrong. Yeah, well, look, look. They listen. There's 2 things. I would say this, as a spoiler, is that I, I, after reading it, I, you know, like some of
+
+[13:39] the stuff is very hard to dispute, and I think people that could just call people out is wrong, you need to learn this. This is the greatest thing you can learn in life, I think, is the best thing in the world that you can ever do is to be proven wrong, learn from
+
+[13:53] it, and grow. You know what I mean? It's like I've learned the best things when I was wrong, you know, especially because I've tried, you try to be right. You try to do as right as you can. And then when you're proven wrong, it means that you've grown. that's a win. But I think there's room for both of us at this tomato table because
+
+[14:10] you're people. Another thing I hate about people is they read something like, you wrote a lot of words, and they come back with one with one overarching statement that encapsulates everything. That's not the case. That's not the I mean, like, for instance, we have to talk about what types of tomatoes, how long, what you're doing, what your house is like, blah, blah,
+
+[14:29] blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, that's really the thing is there's so many variables. And really what, I mean, I started where you were. I was a don't put the tomatoes in the refrigerator guy. Because you're not an enemy of quality. I like quality. I like good tomatoes. And that's what I'd always been taught, and it seemed that that made sense to me, and it sort of fit with my anecdotal experience. But I'd never tested it. So, you know, we decided well, let's put it to the test. Let's see what actually happens. So all summer long I was buying tomatoes of different types and different quality levels and putting half in the fridge and half on the counter and just keeping track
+
+[15:09] of and then tasting them blind and keeping track of what the results were.
+
+[15:14] And it started to emerge that this thing wasn't really holding up in my tests as much as the rule to never refrigerate
+
+[15:22] tomatoes suggested it should have. And I couldn't ignore that. So, yeah, so then I wrote, wrote about it, and I think
+
+[15:30] there, a fair number of people simply didn't want to let go of the rule or consider the possibility that the rule may not hold as much as they think it does.
+
+[15:37] Right, people wake up, learn, and pay attention to what people are doing, especially if they're being rigorous about it. So, uh, I've had like so many people tweet at me about your articles and I've had people write in about
+
+[15:48] it. And so, by the way, we're going to get into it in depth after the 1st break. But calling your questions for Daniel regarding tomatoes or anything else. Two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 to talk to him live here in the cooking issues studios. Now, before we get into that, so where do you live? Now I live in Queens and Jackson Heights. Remember they bought a house? Yeah, yeah, but where's your farmer's market? Where are you buying your tomatoes? Oh, well, a lot of them I bought at the Jackson Heights Farmers Market, which is run by Green Market. Well, it's a lot of the same... Stokes is not there, but I did get I did get a big round of tomatoes from Stokes. Which ones? Uh, I got a flat of mixed heirlooms and I got a flat of their red,
+
+[16:34] uh, their like regular red tomatoes. The 2 tomatoes from Stokes, to me, are the only ones that I ever, The only tomatoes I buy other than just crap tomatoes. I can say those small yellow ones? No, I buy the German stripes, which are large, kind of modeled yellow and red. And the Aunt Ruby's German green, which are green, relatively large, and then get a pinkish red blush that goes around them. And I've been buying these, these exact 2 tomatoes from them for, you know, it's over, it's got to be, I don't know, like 10 years or something, like
+
+[17:09] nine, 10 years. So I wait for them every year. I know exactly what they look like when they're the way I want them to
+
+[17:15] be. And like how long it's going to take them to get them where I want them to be. You know what I mean? So, like, for me, it's like this, a lot of heirlooms, and we can get this in discussion later, aren't very good to begin with. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, so we'll talk about all this. And then we'll also talk about the implications for the, remember growing
+
+[17:34] up those, like, those rectangular plastic boxes. Oh, yeah, the clamshells of, yeah, with, well, the rectangular, like, mesh boxes long. They had four, 3 or 4 really kind of sallow looking tomatoes, and then they were overwrapped with plastic, and then they had like an image of like a nice tomato on the plastic wrap.
+
+[17:53] You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, that's what I grew up with as a tomato. Or, like, the diner tomato, which is that. You know, those things are the size of like, yeah, well, I don't know. You can't see my hands, like a handball. They're like small, crappy, medium small. Their size are like a little larger than a Campari tomato. Yeah, which I think are a fine supermarket tomato. tastes good. Yeah. Yeah. People hate on those things. They actually they taste good. And they're year round. They're not bad to eat. They're not all that bad. No, okay. So let's get to some questions, though. And Daniel, please feel free to chime in, have some, you know, technical technical cooking questions. I got to get to. Otherwise, I'll hear clamorings. So Jasper writes in from Sweden regarding rotovaps and vacuums. Now, if you might recall, Jasper's written in a couple times about rotavad problems. he's making building a road of app setup. For those of you that don't know what a rotor app is. Yeah, rotary evaporator is a vacuum still that allows you to
+
+[18:51] do, like, distillation of flavors at very low temperatures and under vacuum, which means there's no
+
+[18:57] oxidation and there's almost no heat damage to the flavors. Very pure flavors. And you can do it with a, you know, you can do it with a normal condenser,
+
+[19:05] it's a piece of laboratory equipment. If you buy them used, you have to be very careful to clean them, blah, blah, blah. I use them at Booker Index, the bar. I have to use a very much more complicated way of doing it because I can't distill
+
+[19:14] with alcohol, so in order to keep the flavors intact, I need to use liquid nitrogen and
+
+[19:18] special kind of condensers. So yada, yada. So, uh, that said, that is what a road app is. They ain't cheap if you, you know, they ain't cheap. I 1st saw one, uh, the 1st time I, wait, I, when I 1st started working at the French culinary, even when I was
+
+[19:33] part-time there, you know, we were researching all equipment, and I knew I wanted to do some, um, some vacuum distillation, so I built a really crappy one, you know, like out of parts that I found around, uh, found around, and it really kind of sucked, but it gave me like a taste for
+
+[19:46] it, and then I saw the Rokas do a, a demonstration at Madrid fusion where they did the oyster thing. It was the 1st time I ever seen the distilled dirt going in distilled dirt water that they put on oysters. Is there surf and turf? I was like, must get real one. Okay. So, uh, Jasper writes in. I've previously sent a question that is still unanswered. I apologize. Consequently, I would appreciate if Dave can have his expertise and opinions on this question, namely, in regards to selecting a vacuum pump for a
+
+[20:10] roto app. Uh, though I'm already in the process of buying one. So now, Jasper's looking at, okay, so you need a vacuum to run a vacuum still. This is obvious, right? That seems apparent. Right. Because when you lower the, when you lower the, the pressure, when you lower the, the pressure inside of a system, you decrease the temperature at which things boil, just like going up to the top of a mountain, you decrease the temperature at which things boil, things
+
+[20:32] boil a lower temperature, therefore you can shift the distillation point down to a lower temperature. That's the whole principle of what's going on here. Now, the deal is you need a vacuum pump thick in one, get to a low enough vacuum pressure that you can really reduce the boiling point, especially if you're going to do cooking with
+
+[20:47] it. You need very good vacuums because if you're going to try to make things like syrups and you don't want them to get too hot, they have a very high boiling point. Think of when you're boiling candy down, you're boiling down, the temperature goes up and up, you need a better and better vacuum to be able to maintain its low temperature, right? So the other thing you need is you need a vacuum that can, one, tolerate some moisture because you're
+
+[21:06] gonna mess up and you're gonna, you're gonna accidentally suck some moisture up into your vacuum pump, so it needs to tolerate some
+
+[21:12] moisture. And three, you need it to be powerful enough that it can suck the vacuum fast enough. So a lot of people make a mistake. They try to get either these little things called aspirators, which run off of
+
+[21:24] faucets, and they, um, they're kind of weak. They don't have, they don't, they're not strong enough. can't suck enough of a vacuum fast enough to really be useful for what we're doing. And then other people go the other way, they get a really vacuum that sucks a lot, but can't get to a low enough vacuum level. So like a vacuum cleaner or a hood has a huge amount of exhaust, you know, can exhaust a huge amount, but it can't do it to a very low vacuum. These are the problems. So, uh, Jasper is looking at buying either the uh, Buke V700 or V710 pump, which is their standard laboratory vacuum pump. I have the V700. It's nice. It can get down to around 10 millibar, so atmospheric pressure is about 16,
+
+[22:01] uh, 1600, you know, uh, you know, 1000, sorry, 1065 millibar. So it gets down pretty low. But it can't really get that all the time. It can really get to about 20, especially if your road of app is leaking and it's kind of a pain in the ass. Leaky wrote a vap, by the way, for those of you that don't know. Leaky Roto app. key cause of flavor loss and a distillation. Leaky wrote of that because your air is sucking in through the leak and stripping flavor up and out through your pump. In real life, when you're using a vacuum pump in a rotary evaporator distillation, your pump should run down to its
+
+[22:30] pressure and then never turn on again. That's the best of all possible worlds. And then you're losing no flavor. Think about it. You're evacuating it down to a certain level. You're supposed to boil everything off and then recondense it in the condenser. You're not supposed to have to suck a vacuum again. supposed to be like closed loop. b, b, b, b, b. doesn't work that way. So the pump always has to run a little bit, but it shouldn't ever run that much. But the more much more expensive pump, the pump I have is the one that, you know, he's saying the
+
+[22:55] 700, the cheaper one. Um, And do you know how to make this? By the way, I'm running the show for the 1st time off of my new iPhone 6 Plus. Fabling. Oh, check that out. But unlike the my iPad, it keeps turning off on me. Do you know how to go into settings and make this thing not automatically turn off? Because I keep looking down and then I have to use my finger to sign in. Oh, it's only finger sign in now? No, I still have password on it, but like, it's irritating. Every time I go to look at the question. I say something. I go down and I see my lock screen. It's no fun. So anyways, so the 710 is a much bigger pump, if you could afford it, I would go for it, if you could afford the, you know, footprint, I would go for it because it's going to be better for things like
+
+[23:34] syrups because it can get down to a much lower vacuum pressure. It has another level of pump on it. Both of the, and also, you know, there's a thing in vacuum pumps. Daniel, I'm sorry about that. you have to listen to vacuum pump technology, but there's, one of the problems when you're doing a vacuum is, is that you suck. How long is it gonna stay on now? Forever. Really? It says, woo. Uh, so there's a thing in a vacuum where if you get moisture inside of your vacuum system,
+
+[23:58] right? And you're not pumping a lot, you can't get down to a low level. So they have this thing called a gas ballast. That after you're vacuum system, let's a little bit of air in so the sucker can, look, look, look, look, a little pump all the time, draw dry air with it and expel out
+
+[24:10] your, your, your moisture. Get it? Okay. Okay, I think so. Yeah. So when you're running a gas palace to get the moisture out of your vacuum pump, the bigger vacuum pump can still reach a lower vacuum pressure,
+
+[24:21] right? It's just, put it this way. got more balls. Sounds good. Yeah. All right. So if you can afford it, take it. The other question is, you need a vacuum controller, and he wants to know whether he should get the
+
+[24:31] V 850, which is the one we have, which is basically just a standard vacuum controller, hits a set point, stops, or the
+
+[24:38] V 855, which is automatic distillation. Listen, I have no idea. I would always wanted to have the 855. And if you know someone at Bukey. Let me tell you, it's the same freaking unit. All they got to do is like flip some switches and like do a firmware update and they can convert. They won't. They won't do it. But it's just a software difference. It's the same piece of hardware. Isn't that isn't that just a kicker? It sounds like Apple. Yeah, right? They're just crippling products. They cripple. Why? Yeah, why? Still. Still no USB on this damn thing. You know what I'm saying? Call her on the line. Oh, color. you're on the air. Hi, Dave, how's it going? No, they're all right. up? Hey, I had a couple of equipment questions. I hope you could help me with. I'm curious in a cheap home ice cream maker. I think I've heard you say before you like the rock salt ones. So which one? The rock salt? Yep, yep. That's all nice. Yep. Is there any particular model you like or what should I look for? All right. So I'll tell you that this, the sad truth is I want to love the, whatever it's called, the white mountain, which is the kind of the white mountain. the name of it, right? I can't remember. Yeah, I saw I saw that on uh, I think shoved ups like Router or something. Yeah, it's good. I have one right? Uh, it's really good. It's expensive, right? But it's like, it's it's oldie timey, and the scrapers that it uses are wooden. Okay? Now, I had a thrift store, like I forget the name of it, like Revco or something like this, a thrift store motorized. I also, I was stupid. I thought my kids would want to get into ice cream making with me and crank that thing. And so I bought the hand crank one. Yeah, yeah. I bought the hand crank one, thinking that, oh, we would sit around the table and crank ice cream. Hell no. the table by yourself. Yeah. Hell no. Hell no. Yeah, I sit there by myself cranking on that thing. So, like, if I could go back, I would definitely get the motorized one because I have better things to do with my life than watch my kids watch me crank an ice cream machine.
+
+[26:30] But the, uh, so aside from that, though, uh, like the White Mountain is really good, but the old crappy, I think Revco, I don't
+
+[26:40] remember one that I had had uh, plastic, like scraper dashers on it that actually did, I think, a better job of getting the ice cream off the side of the freezing tin.
+
+[26:50] And so I think that, so one of the problems with rock salt and ice, ice cream freezers,
+
+[26:57] right, is you need to be able to effectively scrape the crystals off the side of the metal container or you get like
+
+[27:04] weird like chunky crystal problems in it. And that's why those companies who make those things don't recommend that you salt the hell out of your ice. They give you like a salt recommendation and they give you a freezing window that's actually a lot longer than I like. Now, with my old Revco, with the plastic scraper blades, until that sucker died, like I could churn out like easy, like 12, 15 minute batch times on that thing and still get good scrapage on the sides, whereas my feeling is with
+
+[27:33] the, with the scraper dasher things that they have on the white mountain, that if you were to push the times that fast by salting the hell out of it, that it would lose its scraping efficiency.
+
+[27:41] So I've never been, but again, like, you know, I haven't played with the White Mountain as much because, you know, years
+
+[27:48] ago, I would make ice cream like 2 times a week in my old Revco one. I paid, I think, 3 bucks for that ice cream maker on the thrift shop. I'm so sad when that thing died. And, um, and so I used to do it uh, all the time. I also bought the really big white mountains, so I don't know whether I would have had better results if I had used a smaller one. Uh, because when I go, I go big usually, uh, unless I'm buying something from a thrift shop. It's just, you know, it's in my nature. I can't help it. Um, so anyway, so that's that's my thoughts. Am I answering any sort of question or am I just saying things I can't tell? No, no, I think I think I'm helpful. I know what you're talking about with a scraper. My parents had an old kind of crappy one too, and uh, I know you're talking about with the chunky kind of crystal thing. Yeah, although I bet you could modify White Mountain. Yeah, that's because you retrofit. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about is I was reading some broad posts for a while ago about the, um, the little tiny centrifuge. Yep. Um, what do you think about that now that you had a chance to use it more? Can it do much and how does, how does the yield going to compare to, like, I love, uh, your guys, who's pino techniques have been doing a lot of
+
+[28:56] the trying, like, add our clarification? I wonder how is the yield gonna be? Can you use it for much more than clarification, kind of just what are your current thoughts on that machine now? Uh, well, it's not good for anything where you care about the solids because it's very hard. So most of the time when I work with solids in a centrifuge, you're actually dealing with kind of a stratification of layers and you're not going to want all of those layers. And so it's useful to have large buckets, so you could scrape the different layers off. So, like, let's say you're making like pecan, you know, you grind up pecans. You can get the oil layer, then you can get the fine nut layer, and then you can get the,
+
+[29:34] like the, like the, the outer, you know, skinny layer at the bottom, and it's very hard with a machine like this. 1st of all, it's not going to do enough separation so well, but it's very hard with a machine like this to do any real separation.
+
+[29:46] So it's really only useful for things where you want the liquid on top. And you have to spin it a lot. I did do a hostino once of, uh, for a large group of people and I was, uh, back when Tristan was a bar manager, Booker and Dax, and we were in a basement in
+
+[30:02] Bogota spinning for hours and hours and hours and hours. Oh, God. But if you want to do something like lime juice, where you only need like, uh, where you only need like, you know, a couple
+
+[30:17] ounces and you're good. you know, right? Yeah, yeah. We did it for Hurricane Sandy, too, remember, for the Today Show? Oh, really? Oh my god, that was a nightmare. Uh, yes, yes. I've never, like, I've never been so, like, visibly, like, just not in a good mood on
+
+[30:35] a TV appearance ever, right? Like visibly just like making Halloween drinks in a not good mood. But anyway, it's not that big of an investment. Um, so, you know, if you want to jump in and get it, you know, I'm sure, you know, sooner or later
+
+[30:52] there'll be a much better alternative, but, um, it's not a horrible thing to play around with for things like lime juice or small amounts of grapefruit juice and things like that.
+
+[31:00] Yeah, okay, great. Thanks, thanks so much. Really appreciate it. the inside. Hey, cool, no problem. Thanks for calling. Okay, new tagline. Am I answering questions or am I just saying things? It's hard to know. I don't know. I can't tell. So anyway, back to... Well, wait, let me finish Jasper's question first. I'm going to break. So, uh, look, the 855, the key thing with that is automatic distillation, uh, depends on how they run the
+
+[31:29] automatic. for those of you that don't, when you're doing a distillation, just like when you're making candy. I tell you, the boiling point goes up as you're boiling stuff off as there's less water in the product or less
+
+[31:36] alcohol, depending on what kind of distolation you're doing, especially when you're doing alcohol distolation, which is what you're going to be doing, let's be honest, is the boiling point is constantly changing.
+
+[31:45] And because the boiling point is constantly changing, you need to sit there and keep
+
+[31:49] and adjust constantly the boiling point of the, you know, the vacuum pressure that you're running the distillation at in order to keep a constant level of distillation. That's how you have to do it. Now, the 855 claims to have automatic distillation algorithms that make it so you can walk away from it. I've never used it. I don't know if I trust it to make the best possible flavor. Maybe it does. in which case it'll save you. I mean, like I have to sit in front of every liter of product I want. I or someone who is trained has to sit in front of the Roto app for an hour. Okay? So it's like, if you could just, you know, Ronco, you know, Ron
+
+[32:24] Popil had said it and forget it, you know, then maybe it would be worth almost untold amounts of money if you were
+
+[32:28] going to do this kind of thing a lot. One last thing you said you had, and this I'm going to get into just really quickly, Jack, before we go to the break, is you're using for your chiller. Remember, when you're doing distillation, what's the key, what's the key thing you have to remember, distillation, moonshiners? anyone? Anyone? Cutting off the tails? Well, in terms of taste, yes, but in terms of physics, in terms of physics, everything that you boil, you have to condense, right? You have to, in other words, you have to have as much chilling power as you have heating power or you'll saturate your condenser, right? So the way moonshiners do this is they always moonshine near a creek or a
+
+[33:03] well and they just put it through a boat ton of water, right? through long tubes and a lot of water, but they're not doing it at a very low temperature. In rotary evaporation, you're doing your, your, um, your chilling, you're condensing usually at a lower temperature, much lower than tap water. Chemists use tap water at 20 degrees Celsius because they're doing their distillations higher, like 60 degrees
+
+[33:22] Celsius, and they just dump, dump, dump, tap water through the condenser, but they're not getting a very large temperature delta between their distillation and their condensing, which means they're not getting a lot of fine resolution of
+
+[33:34] flavors. They're not doing it. They're losing a lot of stuff through their through their vacuum stack. Okay? So, you need a low temperature, but you need to have a low temperature and a lot of power. So your piece of equipment that you own, which is a Julabo FE 500 recirculating cooler, only has 120 watts of cooling power at -10 Celsius, right?
+
+[33:53] You're going to want to set it at -20 -23, start your distillation, and then it's
+
+[33:58] going to that temperature is going to creep up through your distillation run. So you're going to have to do smaller distillation runs so that your temperature doesn't get too high before you get too far in or you're not going to be able to maintain your chilling.
+
+[34:08] You need, if I was you, if it was going to spend money on something, I would spend it on more chilling power. All right, let's go to break.
+
+[34:32] Today's program has been brought to you by Wilma Jean, from the team behind Nightingale 9, Delicious Fried
+
+[34:43] Chicken and other Southern Comfort Food Classics, Awesome Burgers 2, located at 345 Smith Street in Brooklyn. That's Wilma Jean, Wilma Jean, 345.com.
+
+[35:07] And oh, welcome back. All right, listen. Stas is like, we're only gonna have time for the tomatoes. Jack, we're going to have to have some sort of a ketchup show at some point. Yeah, that sounds great. Like, because I have so many questions. A whole show dedicated to it? Just to catching up because I have like... Yeah, look, I got, I got, I got... Should we put the freeze on right now? The new question freeze? What I have like, I have to go. I have like, I have a bunch of questions from Lucas. I have Sam's like, oh, you know, autolized for bread. I have cooking black bass. I have salad and choise, I have salt and penetration. Oh, well, I have, I have brine penetration and I have salt, uh, like, uh, salting. I have eggless cooking. I have I have had to make a phone that doesn't break. None of these things seem that they need it right away. Liquid smoke, ISI versus soda stream. We're going to need to do, we're going to need to do a ketchup show. A special catchup show. Special catchup show. How we got sponsored by Heinz. Oh, that would be sick. You know, stars, as you remember, we learned on the show, does not care about what brand of ketchup cheese. Actually, no, that's not true. When I was away this past week. Are you using crappy ketchup? Someone gave like a Sir Kensington and I was like, and you were like, where's my freaking? Well, if you read Patrick's book, he, you know, he, he, uh, firm believer in the Heinz being better than all their ketchup. Yeah. You know something interesting about the Heinz Corporation? They figured out a process for making ketchup relatively early on that meant they didn't have to use benzoate,
+
+[36:41] sodium benzoate in their as a preservative in their stuff. So they were trying to push through a Benzewit a ban early, along with some governmental people so that they could squash everybody else who still had to use
+
+[36:54] Benzewit. That's some sweet business. They're like, this stuff that we figured out how not to use is dangerous. But then everyone else figured it out. So it wasn't so imperative that they put the band through. Hey, and we're back on tomatoes. Hey, hey. Yeah. You know what? You know, Ronald Reagan taught me as a child, ketchup, that's a straight up veggie. It's a straight up serving a veggie. Sure is. Anyone, anyone old enough to remember this? tomato ketchup was considered like in school lunches. They would talk about what slow foods and that kind of thinking is Don Alice Waters and whatnot. Like, you know, back then, tomatoes were a vegetable. think about that. Oh, yeah. I mean, not tomatoes. Ketchup was a vegetable. tomatoes are a fruit. My son is like, the vegetable, another fruit, but they are used as vegetable, main ketchup, vegetable, which is nuts. Okay, so, uh, Jack, when are we going to have this ketchup show? How about 2 weeks from now? I'm out next week, so maybe the following week. Maybe we come in early and do a double episode. You want to do that? Maybe you're not here next week. Yeah, we'll have somebody here. Liz will be here. Don Lee show next. We have a really interesting Don Lee. Next week, Don Lee and Paul Adams are going to come in, and we're going to eat Icelandic fermented shark on air. No way. The one come back to you. Yeah you can come back. kind of want to try that. Who do you not like at all, Jack? Because they should be running the station. Can't say on air. Well, we'll find out next week when we show up. Well, we got 10 minutes, so let's All right, so we we either do a double show next week. Well, because Jack's gone. We kind of need Jack. For the early one? If we do a double? Well, I'll tweet out what our answer is. But we'll do a show where there's no new questions where we just do catch up on these questions that we've missed. Not catch up, catch, catch up, catch up. to our questions. All right, so people, I have not missed your questions. I have them, but right now, we must talk tomatoes. And that's actually one of the questions. So why don't you talk about your studies here real quick. Okay, so it started out, let's see, over the summer, I was actually down in
+
+[38:54] Florida, and I knew I won a steak, visiting my mom. By definition, not a mistake. Um, and I knew I wanted to get started on these. the summertime. What the hell are you doing visiting Florida in the summer? unless you're going to a mango tasting. You know, there's a pool. All right. Um, so I didn't have access down there to really good, uh, you know, let's say farmer's market tomatoes. But I figured people buy a lot of tomatoes at the supermarket. So let me start this test with these. So that was the 1st round. What kind were they? They were, they were, it was, I got 3 kinds. I got a sort of your standard red sandwich tomato, um, plum tomatoes, and then some small, yeah, like cherry tomatoes, basically. And half in the fridge, half on the counter. I always brought the ones from the fringe back up to room temperature before tasting just so that tasters couldn't easily identify, which was which by
+
+[39:52] temperature. And, uh, the 1st day after the 1st overnight, um, the
+
+[40:00] the countertop tomatoes, the room temperature tomatoes were clearly better than the refrigerated
+
+[40:05] ones. And at that point, I was still expecting the refrigerated tomatoes to just be terrible across the
+
+[40:11] board because I was operating under the same assumption that everyone else has been.
+
+[40:15] Um, on the 2nd day with the, so the tomatoes that sat at, at the counter for 2 days at that and had been in the fridge for 2 days at that point, uh, things flipped. And suddenly the counter tomatoes tasted kind of dull, um,
+
+[40:33] and whereas the refrigerated tomatoes still maintained, um, a vibrancy, I would say.
+
+[40:40] same level of crappiness they had before. Yeah, I mean, exactly, yeah. The bar was low here. The bar was low. By the way, when you said suddenly the song suddenly Seymour came into my head, which is an amazing song. Suddenly seem awesome, Daniel. love it. It's right there. He's right there, witness. right there with me. Oh, yeah. All right, let's continue before we get kicked off the air. Not because not because of 70 Seymour, but because of our time. Yeah. So, right. Okay, so let's see, to make this quick. So that surprised me. And I started to wonder, well, okay, it looks like there's a point at which sitting out in warmer temperatures can actually be potentially more detrimental to the flavor of a tomato than a
+
+[41:20] refrigerator one. But, and I wrote a thing about that. But that left a lot of questions because these were your really generic, uh, big ag, tomatoes shipped from state to state, picked green, the whole thing. Sure, crap tanks. Crap tanks. So how does this does this really apply to better tomatoes? So for the rest of the summer, I was doing tests where I was buying tomatoes, pretty much at the rate that I could consume them and refrigerating half of each kind and putting the other half of the counter.
+
+[41:50] And it continued to bear out in my blind tastings, the findings. Now, my apartment is hot in the summer because I don't have air conditioning. Mistake. Yeah, I know. I pat myself on the back for it for environmental reasons, but it's actually really stupid. And so that's, I started to home in on this, on this theory that a lot of the studies that have been done, the ones that I found, I haven't done an exhaustive search of all of the literature on tomato storage, but what I did
+
+[42:24] find across the board, all the tomatoes that were tested were tested in cooler temperatures.
+
+[42:30] So room temperature was defined as being below 70 degrees Fahrenheit, and then compared to refrigeration temperatures. And I was finding that in my room temperature, which was well over 80 degrees
+
+[42:40] Fahrenheit. The ripe, the... So angry, sweating too, while he's sweating. Can't sleep, face against the pillow. Oh, man. Yeah. I've done all sorts of crazy things to deal with, deal with the,
+
+[42:57] the heat, my ponies, including sleeping on wet sheets. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, it continued to, it continued to look
+
+[43:09] like, at the very least in warm temperatures, once you have a nice ripe tomato, it actually seems to do better, more often than not in the
+
+[43:17] fridge than being left out, to kind of wilt in the heat. A lot of people were still not happy with those results. They wanted more quantitative data because this was mostly just qualitative, you know, I do blind tastings and say, well, I like this one because of X and that one because of
+
+[43:33] Y and sort of see where the, see where everything, uh, everything ended up. So then for the 3rd round, I did, uh, I tried to quantify it by
+
+[43:42] doing, uh, a pretty large blind tasting in my office. I had people rate the tomatoes on a scale of 0 to 10 on
+
+[43:51] criteria, like overall preference, texture, flavor, aroma. I had different tomatoes. I averaged them all out, to see, to see where things were. I also did many rounds of triangle tests because one of the things that I was finding was that in many
+
+[44:06] cases it was hard to actually even distinguish between the counter tomatoes and
+
+[44:09] the refrigerated tomatoes. triangle test for those of you that don't know, it's 2 things that are the same, one thing's different, and you see if they can pick out the different one. Right. Um, and I did an early round of triangle tests, uh, just sort of a test run with a
+
+[44:25] colleague and he was about 50%, uh, correct in identifying the counter tomatoes, um, which is better than what you'd expect, um, if he were guessing at random, uh, but
+
+[44:38] not great, not great success in differentiating. And then I did a full, a much bigger round with multiple
+
+[44:45] tasters, trial test. It was 24 rounds, I think. And in that case they got 9
+
+[44:52] out of the 24 rounds, correct, which puts it just about in the zone of guessing at
+
+[44:59] random. Did you correct for where in the tomato they were tasting? I tried to, you know, admit it, like my tests were not absolutely sound
+
+[45:08] and and, uh, you know, scientifically perfect in their, in how I designed them, but I did try to select cross sections that had similar representations of uh, seed quantity and uh, the
+
+[45:22] pulpy part. So I tried not to give someone a cross-section that was mostly pulp with one and mostly seed with another. Right. I mean, the one of the interesting things about tomatoes is that the flavor profile changes radically from the stem end to the
+
+[45:34] tip. Yes. Well, that's, I would say that you, that's, I was seeing much more variation within the batches, whether refrigerated or
+
+[45:45] countertop, than between refrigerated and countertop. Sure, like when I know when I'm serving tomatoes in the summer, I'll take the, I'll take off
+
+[45:53] the, the end right by the stem, taste it. If that one's flavorless, I'll take off a few more slices until I get to the flavor I
+
+[46:00] like and then I'll reserve those for another use and then put the awesome like other side up for a service. Exactly. Yeah, there's tremendous variation, even within one piece of fruit. And in fact, even in the, when I had my, the taster's blind tasting, the, the big batch of tomatoes and scoring them, I had scores for every single individual piece of fruit, and I was seeing huge spreads of scores, which is partly, there's the level of arbitrariness when somebody decides what's a 5 or what's a set, you know, people tend to be somewhat consistent within their own scoring numbers, but some people just tend to score low and
+
+[46:31] some tend to score high. But even with that, I could see variations were happening, even within a piece of fruit that suggests exactly what you're saying, which is you have tremendous variation within a piece of fruit, let alone. Yeah, I mean, I would say I saw much more variation from fruit to fruit and within a fruit than between refrigerated and countertop. And actually, the one thing I didn't mention is my latest, my last round of testing, it had actually gotten cool in New York City at
+
+[46:55] that point. And so those tomatoes were sitting out in average temperatures of about 65 to 70 degrees, which I had
+
+[47:01] never, my whole theory was, okay, well, if it's really warm, the refrigerator is arguably the better place to
+
+[47:08] go warm. fire faster. They're still, you know, quotes alive and they respire faster at higher temperatures. Exactly. Yeah, there's just accelerated aging is happening. And so you're going to have degradation. Once they've hit their sweet spot, they're just going downhill. So it's just a race to the bottom. What's amazing is that what I was finding was that even in the around 70 degrees, it was not as drastic. The countertop was did better, but it's still, I wasn't seeing this dramatic refrigerated tomatoes are absolutely
+
+[47:37] horrible and tomatoes stored at room temperature are great spread. This rule would... No, 5 with 100% humidity in your apartment. Oh, sweet. love that. Well, maybe he stored some with his wet sheets. But they, uh, had some in the shower. So after we... Some on the toilet shelf. Oh, yeah, sweet, sweet. On inside the toilet, in the water, on the shelf, for inspection. So, let me, let me, because after reading it, let me just give you my thoughts on reading it. And then you tell me what you think about my thoughts and then you're going to kick us off the air. Okay. So kind of like my initial hatred of the refrigerating tomatoes comes from, you know,
+
+[48:19] like childhood days of people would buy a tomato of crappy tomatoes. It's underripe anyway, has, you know, very little flavor to begin with. And then they would store it in the fridge for like a week and a half . And then, you know, after a week and a half they would slice it and it had just turned into a, now it's not as
+
+[48:37] long as it tasteless. It's also mealy and disgusting. So it's mainly this mealiness that happens after long refrigerated storage, this tissue damage that happens after long refrigerated storage to these
+
+[48:47] tomatoes that, you know, that that happens. You know what I mean? But so I think, you know, on reading it, I'm like, look it. So over a couple of days, you're not getting that kind of a damage to a tomato by storing it in
+
+[49:02] a fridge, probably, right? Exactly. And so what the fridge is doing is the fridge is saying, stop. Stop ripening, right? So if you get it to your perfect place, then maybe the fridge is a good place to put it as long as you let it warm thoroughly the hell up afterwards,
+
+[49:19] right? Right. And I think for things that don't get mealy, like grape tomatoes. I store them in the fridge for it doesn't matter. I mean, they lose quality, but they're not getting mealy on me. It's mainly mealiness that I hate. You know what I mean? And the, uh, and I think some tomato varieties like, uh, are more susceptible to that. More prone to that. Yeah, and I hate that. And the and the general quality level. I did see some millionists developing, you know, for some of the tests, like the
+
+[49:46] big, the big tasting I did in my office. I knew which was which. So I was able to just do my own tastes and I could see that for the tomatoes that I perceived to be lower quality to begin
+
+[49:58] with. The mealiness was more of a problem in the refrigerator. Tasters still had a harder time differentiating when they were blind. So I knew that I was I knew what to look for and I could I could see it to some degree. So, you know, at the end of the day, there's no argument that the refrigerator is a great place to put
+
+[50:17] tomatoes. By the way, also, in case anyone wonders if they haven't read this stuff yet. He was storing them right on the counter, i.e. stem side, downs, stem side down. It's the only way to store a tomato on your counter. Please don't store it the other way. Uh, especially with an expensive tomato. So, yeah, but here's my thing. And the other thing I took away from it is it, look, like I told you before, I buy these 2 tomatoes every year, the German stripes and the
+
+[50:44] Aunt Rubies. I know by color and feel exactly how I want them to be. So typically I'll buy them. I'll buy some that I'm going to eat today, and I'll buy some, I'm going to eat tomorrow, and then I'm going to buy some that I'm going to eat the day after that. And I leave them out on the counter and they come perfect exactly when I want them to, like an avocado does. Like, yeah, like you're buying just like avocados. buying some ready to eat, some that are have a day left in them and some that need a couple days. Right. And so I never put those suckers in the fridge because I need them to get to their perfect spot. Exactly. But if you have something that says perfect spot. I guess I might have to concede that it degrades less in the
+
+[51:27] fridge. Wow. That's what that's what I found. I mean, grades less. It's less of an encrapping meant than having it ripen past its perfect point. Interesting, interesting stuff. You know I hate to do this, Steve. Yes, we have to go. Thank you, Daniel. Maybe you can come back for some fermented shark. Can I really? Yeah. All right, fermented shark next week, plus maybe a ketchup episode, cooking your juice. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[52:19] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, 3rd generation
+
+[0:04] curemasters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit SurreyFarms.com. Hi, this is Celia Kutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio
+
+[0:18] Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria and Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly
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+[0:42] 12, I don't know, like 1245. Uh, well, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is uh, later than me today, which is unusual, unusual. She's on the L train. I'm sure you guys all know the fabulous website, is the
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+[0:55] L-Train effed, but, you know, spelled out, right? And apparently, if you go on that right now, it would probably say... They spell it LATE trade. Really? They spell it out. Yeah, L, I think it's just is the L train, you know, not French Connection UK,
+
+[1:11] but properly spelled. Anyways. But while we're waiting for nastasia, we have a new person in the engineering booth today. Liz, right? Yes. Hello. Hello, how you doing? How are you enjoying the engineering stuff while Jack's away? Oh, you know what they say? Well, the cat's way, the mice will play, right? I guess, I guess. I guess. And, uh, um, before we get tuned. We have 2 special guests with us today. We might actually, a 3rd person might be coming. Uh, we got Don Lee, the fabulous Don Lee of
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+[1:42] uh, what's the new bar called? Boilermaker. But you don't drop the shot glasses into the, you don't actually drop the boilermaker shot glass into the, into the pint glass. You can if you want. no right or wrong way to do it. You can just, you know, be in a shot next to each other. You can pour it in. You can drop the shot. But you don't encourage this, though. You know, we encourage fun. So if you're having fun, do what you want. Do you leave enough volume in the pint glass to do a drop a proper or do you have to take a sip first? You got to take a sip first. You don't want to stiff you if you want to, you know, a good beer. Actually, doing British style pores has to be exactly on the freaking line. Not an exact line, but you know, it should be to the top. British people. You know? Like, don't get me stuck. I love you. I love you, Brits, but you and your obsession over your pore lines and your beers is a little bananas because like the, the, the price, and we're also
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+[2:27] joined, by the way, Paul Adams, the, uh, head honcho
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+[2:31] of, uh, uh, popular sciences, uh, web presence, is that true? Was it your title, head honcho? Senior editor, is that the same thing? I prefer honcho. Okay, yeah, head honcho. And, and, and, uh, Stinky Fish enthusiast. Yes. Yes. Which we're going to get to in a minute. because it's it's it's stinky fish Tuesday on cooking issues. As you might know, we are actually going to get to my backlog of questions. We're going to record a special ketchup show, and maybe I can even do a ketchup tasting for that,
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+[3:00] for, you know, because Nastasia, who, for years, had said that the brand of ketchup that you use doesn't matter until, yeah, until recently she went away and someone gave her some off brand ketchup, but she's like, oh, I thought it didn't matter because I had just been eating, you know, eating
+
+[3:13] heights this whole time. So we could do a comparative ketchup tasty. Maybe some fancy ketchups. And some crappier supermarket ketchups. I mean, it's kind of like everything's rated against Heinz, wouldn't you say? Right, but are you going to do these Steingarten, you know, McDonald's French fries, the medium, or what are you going to do? Okay, look, I love Jeffrey. In fact, I saw him recently for the 1st time in a long time. For those of you that don't know, Jeffrey is like, in, you know, for me, one of the most influential food writers
+
+[3:35] ever ate, but I'm like, you know what? I can never get the name of this book, right? Because I confuse his book name with, I said this in the air before with Oliver Saxe's book name, so it's like the man who ate his wife with everything or something. mistook his wife or something that you. Yeah, exactly. Something like this. But it's actually the man who ate everything, is his 1st book. Um, and it was just, you know, I think it's one of the, it's like, of its style, like the seminal book. Anyway, amazing. Uh, amazing book. Anyways, he's dead wrong. McDonald's French fries suck. In fact, that style of French fries sucks. It's like right in between, like a shoestring fry, cook to the point where it's basically a potato chip. I mean, I can kind of appreciate this. Um, uh, even a soggy, crappy, thinner fry, but the fries that taste good for 13.5 seconds when they come out of the fryer and then turn to like
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+[4:24] a hollow pieces of cardboard, which is kind of like how McDonald's French fries work. They suck. hate them. So what would be your medium for testing different kinds of ketchup then? Okay, look. But what do you think about McDonald's fries? I mean, McDonald's fries and McDonald's fries. You're on a road trip? you know, it's something you can, you know, count on. I mean, look, I can get, 1st of all, on a road trip, they get cold so fast because you're driving and you can't just like pound them. You have to sit there and like, the person in the passenger seat is holding the fries over and you're missing and you're dipping.
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+[4:53] I would say you have to taste them straight and then taste them on, hmm. I don't know, nastachia. What is the, you're looking well today. I'm gonna go see platelet bread. Oh, she's dressed up to see Fleetwood Mac. Nastasia. One of the largest Fleetwood Mac fans hates Stevie Nicks. don't hate it. I prefer the other one. Can you make more crinkly noises? You pass the mic, please, because... Yeah. Yeah, we're doing an event for the low line tomorrow, and I, we need dry ice. There's a low line now. Well, yes. It's some abandoned, like, tunnel area in the lower east side, and they're having a fundraiser tomorrow, and we're one of the drink makers for it. And so I'm going to do, um, our version, Don has his own version of the, uh, Harvey Waldbanger. We're going to do our frozen version to the Italiano Esteliano, uh, name tip of the hat to Piper. That was one of his final puns for us before he moved on to, you know. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So we were about to eat some sneaky fish and I got sidetracked. We have a caller on the air and we were talking about boiler makers. Why don't I take the collar first? He's not sitting there all the whole time. Caller. you still there? Yeah. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing good. How are you? Doing well, doing well. What is your question? Um, okay, so I actually have asked this already on American
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+[6:11] Pest Kitchen radio, but um, Chris and Bridget were not able to speak questions. Oh, like you're cutting in and out a little bit. Try to try to rearrange your head in relation to the phone and start again. I couldn't hear that lesson. Um, I've actually already asked Chris and Bridget of America's Pest Kitchen about this question and they actually weren't able to answer it. So I'm hoping you could help me out. Oh, well, we got, we got 4 heads here, plus, plus Liz, a separate head in the engineering room. So maybe we got maybe we got your answer here. All right. Um, so, um, about 2 years ago, I was in a lab, um, for biology, and uh, one of the experiments is where we took salivary
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+[6:50] analyst, and um, tested its effect on a dish of agar jelly, and the idea is that the enzyme can actually break down the starch into sugars.
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+[6:59] And um, I was wondering if you can have that same effect with like an egg yolk on
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+[7:03] fruit because I know egg yolks contain amylase. So I'm wondering, can you buy like a really crappy piece of supermarket through
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+[7:09] the totally unripe and put the egg yolk on it and have it like magically
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+[7:14] ripen artificially? My understanding of it is that while there are some enzymes in egg yolk, and I guess those are the ones that make custards turn to
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+[7:24] crap if you don't cook them through enough, right? Um, it's my memory. It's been a long time. Yeah, that they're relatively low in activity compared to, um, compared to commercial
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+[7:37] preparations, or for instance, saliva, um, which is better off spitting on it.
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+[7:44] aside from the fact that you'd have egg yolk on it, but the more interesting thing that you bring up is that ripeness isn't just a function of sugar.
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+[7:53] So ripeness is oft times an increase in sugar, but concommittent with lots of other changes. For instance, sometimes a reduction in acid, sometimes acid is stable, depends. Like apples, the acid and apples will slowly decrease over time as it ripens. Um, they're all, you know, the, the creation of volatiles, especially kind of like higher uh, flowery nestry notes, things like
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+[8:16] this are created during the ripening uh, process. So it's not all starch to sugar conversion. However, liquor companies make a very good business out of taking things like potatoes and converting the starch in them into sugar without having to go through
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+[8:30] any, you know, time-consuming step like fermentation. So they just dump amylases into it. Remember, amylase is not a single type of enzyme. There's alpha amylases, and there's beta amylases, and there's different ones that are meant to operate at various different points. But if you have, like, for instance, a puree of unripe product. I would recommend at, and we just wanted to sugar it up. Lets say we're doing potatoes or something, right? If you have a lot of pectin, I would add a pectin, pectinase enzyme to thin it out so that your other enzymes can work more effectively. And then usually they do a two-step process, 2 different enzymes when they're doing conversions for
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+[9:06] thing, or more, like shotgun enzyme approaches. I call them when they're doing things like fermentation for potatoes. I forget the names of the enzymes that they use, but uh, uh, Novo signs makes a bunch of Guzmer as the place, but I don't think any, I've tried using just straight amylase from a brew shop, and I think
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+[9:22] they're, they're, I was very underwhelmed. Very underwhelmed by it. I also remember that for your amylases to work properly. They have to have access to the starch in the in granules. So unless you, like, let's say you take an underripe apple. So when you taste an underripe apple, one of the characteristic notes of an underripe apple, a starchy flavor, and you can
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+[9:45] see, almost feel it. When you cut it with a knife, you go shunk, and it cleaves, and it's starchy. The only starch is really, if you lick that apple, instead of eating it, you can actually get that kind of starchy taste from it, and
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+[9:55] the, that starch can be is available to be converted by anamelase. However, the starch intact starch is typically not. So you would need to functionalize the starch, a.k.a. cook it, and which is what they do when they're doing when they're mashing out or something like this. Usually you'll bring the ward up so that you can hydrate the starch and then it's more available. Back me up on this. Don Paul. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, so I would recommend you got to do all those, but chewing and spitting out is a time honored way of increasing the sugar content of
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+[10:28] uh, starchy products, although it's people find it gross. But if you're doing it for yourself or if you're doing... I don't really want to spit on my fruit, so I don't think I'm going to do that. We're gonna just spin on it. just gonna chew it and spit it out. And then ferment one. But even if you just keep it in your mouth, you keep chewing it. You feel it change over time on your tongue. I've never done it to a potato. I've definitely done it with rice. So, like, even just like the plainest of white rice is. you just, you know, keep it in your mouth, keep chewing on it. like, you know, 30 seconds to a minute, it'll become sweeter. Hey, Stas, you ever seen me choose for a full minute, Stas? I like full like millisecond, more like. I'm like, I'm like, I almost, I almost got kicked out of a Michelin starred restaurant in Spain because the guys couldn't come to the table fast enough to explain what the hell they were
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+[11:10] doing and it was already gone. And like the actual, the chef came out and was angry with me.
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+[11:14] I'm like, well, you know, don't talk so goddamn much. So, excuse me, don't talk so much. Family show. and let me have my food and need it, right? Or serve everyone else and then wait or like put a closure over mine or something, you know? Something. Because I eat very quickly. Hey, real quick, I know this is your ketchup show, but if you have time, I've got 2 more quick questions asked. All right, go quick. while Don is setting up our fish products. Okay. Um, so I've got 2 uh, all-plied Tefon pans, and the finish has been totally ruined on them from like use and abuse and scratching them on
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+[11:47] accident, stuff like that. Um, I don't want to ditch to really nice cans. I feel like the metal underneath is fine. So, um, I actually have access to a lot of like stainless working equipment, like polishing and
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+[12:00] stuff. Is there any way to Teslon finish off the pan and functionalize the pan into a standard stainless
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+[12:07] non regular sticking pan, like normal? Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, usually it's Teflon over aluminum, though. You sure it's the undersurface of it is stainless right below the Teflon? Usually it's like the old school like D3 pan, so I think it's a sandwich of stainless aluminum stainless. That's a good point. I didn't think about the fact that it might just be aluminum and then Teflon. Yeah, but Teflon, as abrasion resistant as it is, is no match for a very quickly spinning wire brush attached to a 4.5 inch angle grinder.
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+[12:41] But, uh, you know, then you're going to have to polish and and buff out and you want to make sure you get all the Teflon particles off because uh, it's going to be more apt to uh, you keeping those things straight done, which ones? You're more apt to, you know, have, you know, a little Teflon
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+[12:57] particles and people are more and more worried about like burned little Teflon particles every every 5 minutes. I see. I hear more people upset about, uh, PFO,
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+[13:07] what is it, PFOAs? perflurinated something or other. Anyway, okay, what's your next one? Um, what is the deal you on the spheres all? How can I get one? Are you going to offer them to go on Amazon? We are. There's not that many left. In fact, I'm glad you asked, this will be the update for the Sears offer right now. The international ones are... going out tomorrow. Tomorrow, they're shipping tomorrow, and all we're doing is waiting on the handoff from our importer into
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+[13:37] Amazon and then they'll ship out. So literally, in order to give something to Amazon, you need to have an appointment, believe it or
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+[13:44] not. And so they're making that appointment, but we hope it happens this week. As soon as I get confirmation that everyone from ShopStarter and Kickstarter has
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+[13:52] been, uh, had their product sent to them. I will then mail the residual sears alls in which there are going to be, how many styles, like 300? 350, probably? 300? I'll mail them to Amazon and they'll just go up on Amazon Prime ready to go. Awesome. Awesome. Good deal. Okay. If I move out, I'm probably going to have to, like, hack my own or something out of Boston Shaker or whatever, but, yeah, yeah. Obviously, I can't recommend infringing our patent or doing things that are unsafe,
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+[14:21] but, you know, but it is a fun project. fair enough. Alrighty. Thanks so much. All right, Don, back to you for a 2nd with the boiler maker. Yes sir. I forget we were talking about boilermakers. And the drop, and the drop, and the sip. Oh, and the freaking, yeah, the British with their pores. Here's the thing. The price is arbitrary. So why does the poor have to be exact? Same with the Germans, with the little wine glass with the line etch in it? You ever seen those? Well, so, you know, historically, there's the fact that it was something that was mandated so that you that it was trying to protect the customer. So the government would say that you have to have this line so people know that this is what it is. And in England, they take the weights and measures very seriously. So even jiggers, if you're producing a 25, 50 milliliter jigger, you can't, 1st of all, you can't make a 30, 60, has to be 25,
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+[15:10] 50 because that's what is recognized by the weights and measures. And then it has to be certified by them. So they just are obsessive about making sure that everything is right for the folks. And then after that, it's really just perception. At this point, people have an expectation of what it's going to be. And if you, you know, it's like even if you order a cocktail today, if you go to like a hotel and they give you an absurdly large V
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+[15:29] stem glass and they give you a martini to the top, like no one wants to drink that all the way to the bottom. It'll just be warm by the time it's the bottom. But if you give them the right amount of drink, you know, that, uh, in a large glass, people feel like they're, they've been gypped. familiar with this problem. That's why you use smaller glass. But the fact that matter is, it's all it's all perception and not actual kind of mandates in these weird... All right. Okay, at least after this, we got to we got to eat some we got to eat some fish. Call her, you're on the air. Okay, that's good afternoon. I really enjoy the show and also I'm really looking forward to your book coming out. Give me a copy of that. Pretty soon, pretty soon, very soon. Yeah, terrific. Oh, I had a couple of recipe questions. I hope you can help me with. Um, I've heard you talk about um, making onion ice cream. Sure. Um, and I was wondering um, how you did that. Uh, do you, do you caramelized onions? you pressure pecum or how do you how do you do that? Well, and you could, I guess, we never caramelized them first, I guess, or afterwards, but
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+[16:29] we pressure cooked them in milk and then blend it for like 20 minutes. Uh, and then uh, blend and then use strain, and then use that as the uh, milk base with the with the cream. So, um, and that works. If you want more of a, frankly, I would actually just, if you wanted to get more of a brown note, I would just add brown sugar rather than caramelized, because the only issue you might have is that you might develop some stable, Usually when I pressure cook, I pressure cooked uncooked onions, and I don't know whether you'll develop some more stable sulfree
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+[17:03] stuff, if you pre-sauté and kind of set the flavor of the onion before you pressure cook it. Usually I slice it into rings very quickly, throw it in milk and pressure cook it right away. So I don't let it sit around all the time and develop that kind of stale onion
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+[17:14] flavor or any of that kind of any of that kind of jazz. But yeah, it's a legit, it's a legit ice cream. I mean, it's on the savory side, but it's legitimately an ice cream. You guys have you guys ever been to the demos when we've done that? No, I've never tried your version of it, but have you ever tried it with the Maui onions? I've heard they're like much sweeter to begin with. Really? I still got pressure cooked those suckers. No, Stas, you've had the onion ice cream, right? Yeah. Did you like it? Wow. And then Vistasia likes it. You know that it has to be a legit product because she, there's nothing. Booker and Nastasia are the 2 people that love to hate the stuff that I do the most. And that's kind of why I like keeping them around. I mean, Booker, because he's my son, but Nastasia, because, you know, she's a
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+[17:49] good, she's a good... Yeah, what? It's a vital role. It is a vital role. The hater. Yes. Yeah. We got to write a Is there a song called The Hater? There's a Joker. Can we do a new version called The Hater and You're the Star? Sure. Sweet. All right, cool. All right, well, thanks. All right. On to finish. Yeah, oh, yeah. If you don't mind, I was also trying to make your 1st aid cocktail at home. Will that work with Agar clarification? No, I mean, look, you can clarify with Agar, but I found that drinks that are traditionally meant to be kind of
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+[18:22] hostinos or really thin when they're Agar, especially because remember you have to add water when you're doing an Agar base thing anyway. And so it just it never becomes kind of awesome. Here's what I recommend you do because 1st date lasts forever. So here's what you should do. You should get to dates. You should get whichever spirit you're going to make the 1st date into because we've made it with various different ones. Blend it, a high speed with SPL, and then just put it in a cabinet for like a month. And then rack it off. And, you know, you might not get like 100%, but you're going to get a lot of settling and you're going to get, excuse me, a significant amount of clear stuff on the top of it. Oh, not. No, that's what I would recommend. But it takes a while, but it's fine because 1st date doesn't go bad. It's the method known as God centrifuge. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess that's true. Yeah, thank you very much. Appreciate your help. All right, cool, thanks. Hey, Paul, you have these kind of contacts. Can we get into one of those NASA astronaut centerfuges and just hold the bottle of, it's only a couple G's, though. not enough to do much. I think they go up to 7 G's. Yeah. I don't mean, we're doing a couple 1000 G's, but I wonder whether you can visibly see settling in a bottle of Justino if you're holding it in your
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+[19:34] hand. Probably. in an astronaut centrifuge. In so far as you can see, anything at 7 G's. Well, because your eyes are peeled back. Yeah. Well, you know, Paul has been on the vomit comet. Did you know that? I think we might be on the vomit comet about 20 minutes here when we're eating the hot girl. So why don't we talk about the fish that we have first, but we have some non-stinky fish that was mailed to us by
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+[19:53] a longtime listener, John Riper, right? Yep. Thank you, John. So he, he fish, he fished these, right? I think he fished these. these fish these? All right. So where are they from? What river do you know? Yeah, I can tell you a second. All right. So for those of you that, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. what your background is because I'm not talking to you. You're listening to a podcast. But um, so salmon, right? Uh, there's a bunch of different variables with a salmon. We're not talking about the latter variables like harvesting or any of this other nonsense, but aside from your standard kind of
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+[20:26] farmed or wild, right? You have which run they're from. And then which species they're from. But the species obviously affects what species it is and the waters that come from are going to affect things like fat content based on how cold the waters are, et cetera, et
+
+[20:42] central. This is what he said. He has 2 different wild Pacific salmon. The Lewis and Clark Expedition A, a ton of salmon when they ventured out to my corner of the globe. Most of it was dried and they came to hate it, but Meriwether Lewis later wrote that the Fresh King salmon he ate here was the finest fish he ever tasted. I wouldn't argue with that, although some people think co-host salmon is just as good as Chinook. I'm sending you some of both, so you can compare for yourself. But I'm not sending them as fresh fish. I've smoked them instead, but they're not the hard, dry chunks that commercially smoked salmon tend to be. They are dried, cured, and cherry wood smoked, but both the curing and smoking are a lot lighter than you typically find. So these filets are still perishable, but they are a lot less delicate than raw fish. I'm not going to say I'm anti-coho, but, you know, I don't fly around in coho helicopters,
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+[21:25] right? Like it's Chinook, it's the freaking helicopter. true. I saw 2 Chinook helicopters out my window in Manhattan yesterday. Yeah. I don't know why there were military troop transport helicopters in Chelsea. Is it Fleet is it Fleet Week? No. No, well, you know, they're a lot of... Oh, damn, strength. Strength ball, strength. This is why, you know, Paul just can't be beep. All right, so let's taste this before we get to our crazy craziness. So okay, which one's which? So the one on the right is the co-ho. What's all taste this? Why are you sitting here not eating? You guys were making me angry. Um, I think salmon's a delicious product. Do you like salmon? Are you literally eating bubble gum right before you taste the salmon? No. Yes. Do a quick shot of Brenabin. I was like, why don't you just why don't you describe what we're going to be drinking here? We have some Icelandic synopsis here. It's like Aquavit from Iceland. Paul was kind enough to hook us up with the US importer of Brennan. Who contacted me on Twitter when he heard we were going to be eating fermented shark today? I'm by the way. By the way, John, who's a stickler for details, which I
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+[22:33] appreciate, took pictures of the actual fish they came from and took both filet pieces from the same section of fish and labeled them with marks. Yeah, which is strong. fantastic. It's fantastic, right? This is also really delicious fish. I think I prefer the one on the left, but I'm a fattier dude. Like, what do you what do you do? What do you do? What do you prefer? Which one's the one in the line? wasn't paying attention. The left was the chinook. There you go. It's called the King for a reason, people. I think the other one's also delicious But it's a different product. I mean, like, you know, I've come to expect delicious kind of, I mean,
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+[23:09] I've come to expect, like, fatty being positive, whereas now a lot of people like the leaner salmons because they still haven't gotten over this stupid hatred of
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+[23:18] fat. Let's save that for another show. Okay, so what, so we're drinking, uh, what's the, how do you say skull in, uh, in, uh, do they have a special pronunciation of skull there? Donovan? Blendo idea. So we're going to go Scandinavian style. You know, old Iceland, Icelandic, the most conservative Norse language, and therefore people in Iceland can actually read the sagas, because it's the closest language to
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+[23:41] old Norse. And so respecting that I will not clink classes. We will just look at each other in school properly. It's cool. It's cool. That's good. That's good. They don't pussy out. They don't pussy out on the caraway flavor. Caraway forward. Yeah, which I appreciate. I don't like sissy, sissy, Akavites with no, uh... Speaking of sissies. What are glass levels? Oh, I know. The bartender and the man of experimental eating prowess are the ones who haven't pounded
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+[24:13] their... Now, Don, Don just came back from Iceland and was not involved in any sort of eruption. Why don't you tell us what you brought back? Brought back some fermented shark. Well, so you and I did. We went on a trip to Sweden together and you made the poor decision to try to bring back
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+[24:30] sastrami in your luggage. Managed to bring it back. Yeah. So, Surstrami, why explain what Surstrami is? is intentionally miscanned. Is it herring? I believe. Yeah. So the you know how you're not supposed to eat a bulging can if you buy can fruit, it's a bulging can of fish that's gone bad. And it was quite horrendous. Paul joined us for tasting that. And I figured, you know, I'm at another Scandinavian place with something that's supposedly terrible. I figured I should share the terrible with you. So for those of you, we talked about it on the air and Paul blogged it, right? For popular signs. I did. There was a video of Dave and McGee enjoying it. Yeah, so it was, for those of you that, I don't know, just were born today, don't know Harold McGee. Harold McGee had possibly the greatest quote of all time as we were eating the
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+[25:19] surf drumming. So surf roaming, what they do is, is they don't add enough salt to it. So ferments in the can. And for some reason, it always ferments in a way that doesn't produce any sort of botulism, but it does make
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+[25:29] some for some stinky stuff. And when you open it, on a day when you see nothing, instantly everything's coated and flies. Everything's coded and flies, like your face, the surfstrum, everything, coded and flies, and the smell radiates out from, you know, far and
+
+[25:41] wide, and McGee, uh, who had had it maybe 2 or 3 times prior, was like, this one is missing
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+[25:49] uh, the vomit note. I miss the vomit note. And I was like, wow, Harold, that's strong, strength, strength. Remember that? That was crazy. And then Paul, Paul was the only guy standing next to McGee and just like pounding chunk after trunk. Like, I had like 3 or 4 because I wanted to see if I could acquire a taste over this, like, you know, small amount of time. But Paul, I don't even remember this, Stas. Yeah, took a cab. took a cab home with it. But then what happened, Paul? The window wouldn't go down. I took a cab home with the leftover sir struggling because we couldn't finish the can and I was in a cab with where the windows wouldn't
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+[26:24] open. What did the cabby say? He didn't say anything, but he looked very unhappy. I love that the cabby had seen so much worse that he doesn't mention sirstraming in the cab. Anyway, totally illegal to bring back. Is this stuff also illegal to bring back? Not to my knowledge. It's sold everywhere. I saw some vacuum pack, some, but they're all kind of frozen. There were no warnings in the airport like in Sweden where it said specifically not to put this in your in your luggage. Right. All right. Well, okay, so hackerl, as it's called. Icelandic delicacy, turns out that they have a boatload of these Greenland sharks off the coast of their waters, right? And they catch them from time to time, but the level of trimethalamian, I believe. I wasn't able to look up my scholarly stuff today, but TMA, I think it's TMA, trimithlamine. I don't think it's straight ammonia. is so high that the flesh is actually toxic to eat. Yes. And, uh, so... It's always fresh Greenland shark flesh. Oh, I like that. You know, but there's also a lot of squids that are high in, well, I guess that's more iodine, huh? Anyway, but like dogs apparently don't aren't offended by the
+
+[27:25] smell and they can get some sort of like TMA narcosis from eating too much of this. Yes. Red. Yeah, which is kind of awesome. Humans can be. Well, I believe they also have Brenabin with it. Oh, yeah, the dogs? Yeah. Well, the thing is like, we're still repulsed by the smell that we can't eat enough of it to actually have it be toxic. That's one of the few things that's, you know, kind of like that, you know, where... But we're going to try. Well, no, so then what they do is they bury it. They bury bury the sucker in the ground and some portion of, you know, I love how people figure things out. This is why people are so resourceful or dumb or both. A combination of resource dumb. So they bury the shark for however long. It freezes in thaws because, you know, because it does. They pull it out of the ground and someone's like, this stinks, but differently than before. Yes. I'm gonna eat this thing. And then they actually hang it up for a couple more weeks to dry it out. Yeah, they got to dry it out. Well, the guy like probably tasted a piece, didn't die. It's like, well, I'm going to hang it up for later and see what happened. This is how all this kind of crap happens. You know what I'm saying? Because you're starving and it's either eat your eat your dead brother or eat this rotting shark and you go for the rotting shark 1st and the brother's kind of like a 2nd call. I mean, that's usually how this thing works, right? Yeah, okay. The line between fermented and rotten is sort of a hazy one.
+
+[28:39] a matter of opinion. Yeah, that's true. I mean, like in a fine a plus and they're, you know, you know, we've kind of lost it, but like when you travel to other
+
+[28:48] places and you see cultures that still have a complete continuum from fresh to fermented in everything they eat, including grains
+
+[28:55] and and, you know, main starches and stuff. We very rarely eat, you know, anyway, whatever. So, uh, it's uh, hung up to dry. They smoke it as well. They smoke it, right? Isn't there fire in there? I don't think there's a smoking. Just a dry hanger from at least what Wikipedia tells me. So the guy didn't use his brother to smoke the fish instead of eating the brother, use it as a smoking fuel. Well, yeah, unfortunately, there aren't very many trees in Iceland. So apparently the primarily they use sheep dung. So there is, in fact, a sheepdung beer that you can get in Iceland. How was it? It was smoky. Don Lee, if you ever visit Don Lee as a very, very, you have to be a very special guest, but if you visit him at the cocktail kingdom, he will serve
+
+[29:38] you, uh, horse pizzle, uh, horse pizzle booze. Yeah, that was a courtesy of a tinho who brought it back from Vietnam for me. Sweet. The label was amazing. Yeah, it was a, we will, we've been conquering awards for the past 20 years and we will continue to conquer more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, any 24 hour hotline if you have any questions. Yeah, I mean, horse, you know, horse is, uh, you know, uh, you know,
+
+[30:01] a, uh, a well endowed creature. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, what's that called? What's that thing called? It's a it's a classic thing. I have flew out of my head right now where you think you become something by eating something of like that. Like ginseng looks like a dude with a thing, so you're going to become a dude with a thing if you eat it
+
+[30:18] or like, you know, what's that called? It's a, it's like, yeah. There's Daniel Gritzer. Oh, Daniel Gritzer has come back. Tim Justin. Why don't you cut him some wine you cut him some non-stink first? I could use some more too. We're going to need to... Yeah, I lost track of which salmon was which. Well, the one in the package, the Chinook, is the Chinook and the other one's a coach. No, I mean, I think he means on the plate. On the plate, you were eating. one was the one that was a little bit more briny. And I think the fatty might have been whether it was the top or the bottom. The belly side was a little bit fattier than the in the top. I think you're a little more briny. Okay. Daniel, you're just in time my brother. Pull up this weird white chair. You don't get a cushy seat because you're late. How about that? Okay. Daniel Gritzer from Sirius Eats. So we have now, uh, the, like, uh, brains
+
+[31:09] here, oh, by the way, uh, cocktail kingdom, popular science, serious eats, and then, like, the 2 Jokers from cooking issues, here to tail, we have a 5 heads, are clearly better
+
+[31:19] than uh, none for uh, tasting this uh, stuff. You want to taste of this stuff before we crack open the hot girl? Yeah, this looks like salmon, is that? Yeah. Looks are not deceiving. This is... So this is the Chinook. And this is the co-ho. Chinook and Koho. Wow, that looks tasty. Same same river, same smoking process. And take from the same piece. Take the same piece as you go down. like belly versus belly. So you have to test versus that piece. Oh, he needs a shot. All right. No, I still like, I mean, actually... Yes. I'm sorry, I'm eating on the air. Okay, here we go. Drum roll. Open the hack roll. Oh, it's a, I'm going to immortalize this. You want to open this right under Dave's name, so... It's already hot. Hector, ha girl. It's only 100 grams of net. We could pound this. Oh, oh, it gets got on me. Oh, jeez. I hate these plastic containers. That's nothing. That smells like, that's nothing. People out there, Gordon Ramsay, Gordon Ramsay, I'm calling you out. You are a sissy. Isn't this what he this is what he ate and he puked? You were pretty mild. You are a freaking sissy. Yeah, I figured, you know, if anyone can take it, it would be us. You know, the number of times we clean down stuff at the end of the night using just the Windex. It's like ammonia city. Yeah, it's just ammonia. It's not it's not death. Like, serstraming is the smell. You're smelling your own decay and rot. You're smelling like liquefied version of that dude on the subway who clears out the subway. You know what I'm talking about? You're, like this, this stuff that's kind of dripping like from him, like that is what you get from surfstorming with an additional
+
+[33:10] note, some other nastiness, plus ammonia, plus ammonia, right? This. This, This just smells like you spilled a little ammonia on your on your fish. You're passing around. our impressions. It's also supposed to have plenty of urea. Yeah, yeah, yes. Oh, okay, so let's, well, we can't do a break, we're about to taste it. We'll do a break in a minute. What we'll do is we'll do a tasting and then we'll go do a break and we'll come back. But I am... I'm telling you that anyone who's at the set, a bunch of people said this is the worst thing they've ever eaten, right? Anthony Bourdain said it was the worst thing he's had. Listen, I've met that guy. It didn't seem like a sis. Did his sister try it? Maybe that's who tried it. Anthony Bourdain or what is it called? Like Tony Reichl? What's his like mashup? Don knows. Yeah, it's Ruth Reichl Anthony Bourdain. I can't remember it's Twitter. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I'm not saying 1st of all, obviously men don't have a stronger constitution than women do, but I just like calling people sissies, right? That's okay. That's fair, right? Totally right, take a piece, everyone. And then we're going to sears all it to see what that does to the ammonia because ammonia is volatile. And then we also have some lemon here to see whether we can cut some of the stuff with the lemon, but I don't even think it's gonna need it. Oh, I mean, this... I ate stinkier stuff than this on a regular basis. Eat. That tastes good. That tastes good. It's kind of salty. Totally. Very chewy. Oh, you're all, you're all, you're all complete wusses. Good as good as stretching it. It's got a good, it tastes good. Yeah, it's got a good texture. It's got a little man wired the taste. Here, give me a give me a fork and let's put the sears all together. Here, hand me the sears all. We should take a break now. All right, well, let's take a break and we'll come back with some more hackerrel issues here on cooking issues.
+
+[35:20] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hams are aged to perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color.
+
+[35:32] The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. Hi, how are you? My name is Andrew W.K. They say when things are very delicious. It must be Heritage Radio. Wait, we have Andrew W.K. on as are one of our people saying stuff? For some reason, he really likes food. Come on, really? Or does that mean he's going to allow us to say he's going to allow us to play party hard? Oh my god. awesome. You know him, right? You know who he is. Yeah, awesome. I appreciate that. My son loves Dax. loves the show that he had on Cartoon Network called Destroy, Bill, Destroy, where like teams have like usually a parent versus like it's usually
+
+[36:32] like it can be jocks versus cheerleaders or parents versus sons or whatever, parents versus kids. And they they blow up a bunch of crap and then they recombine it and do challenges with the recombined stuff. But, like, everyone hated it because they're like, it's not a cartoon, and I can't wrap my head around cartoon
+
+[36:48] network doing something that's not. People are weird. People are weird. Okay, look, so I got some hot girl here and I got, what's this called? seers all, and here we go. I'm gonna try to... There's a technical difficulty. So it's toasting up nice. Alright. Shark is not a fatty fish. No, not at all. Well, that looks lovely. Well, taste it, didn't it? Whoa. You don't want the 1st bite? No, I mean, I look, you know, host, host. Host, host. Yeah, all right. So what do you think? Better or worse, same? Maybe better. Better? I like it better. You get a little more texture on water? Well, the, the, you know, like I say, ammonia is quite volatile. So I should be able to drive off at least a lot of the ammonia that's on the surface just
+
+[37:40] by drifting up a little bit. Just done the triangle. Well, just to give the listeners what I'm looking at here. It is slightly bubbling on the outside. So some of the oil has come to the surface, a little light charring on the sides. It looks delicious. So we'll give it a try. Yeah, no noticeable ammonia on the outside. It has the smell of cooked fish. It looks sort of like a chunk of pork belly from here. Yeah. Yeah, the ammonia is a little more tame. And you have, yeah, you don't have that also that sort of that cured. It's not quite a raw fish texture, but it's somewhere between raw cooked when you don't, when it wasn't sears
+
+[38:16] old and here it's got a full uncooked texture. And by the way, the sear is all living up to its name and searing all.
+
+[38:29] Stas, what do you think of the first case you had? Do you like it or no? No, I didn't like it. Did you hate it or just not like it? I just didn't like it. All right, so you try this one. Wait, no, and that Paul do it. Paul loves it. Paul and I have to use the floor glass because we're a little bit sick. Really? There's more forks? Yeah. No, you use my fork. This is my. Here, Paul, you talk while I see her. Ha Carl is chewy enough that you can't take a bite off a
+
+[38:59] piece. You have to put the whole piece in your mouth so I'm letting it cool a little bit. Now are both these identical ones? Smells toasted? Yes, they're both 2 containers. I want to take one home. Okay, Mr. Wrap it up. What? They're telling us to wrap it up. Oh, wait. All right, hold a sec. We got to cheer one more piece for Mistachio, one for meat. You want to sell what else we're eating here? Yeah, what's the bread, Don? You have some finished rice crisps and some just some German rye bread. I could find locally. You cut the lemon, see what the lemon does, and Paul, do we'll have to do simultaneous testing because they're cutting us off? And the ketchup show, when does the ketchup show starts? The ketchup show, we can we can pre-record on. Yeah, but when is it going to be? So people know when they expect it. Next week? Are we going to do it next week? Okay. So, uh, here, let me have one of those, uh, what are those, what are they, what are they call these? Oh, it's not like a specialized landing crisp. It's like the standard kind of rye crisp? It's a thin crisp from Finland. fins. The fins. All right, listen, this has been stinky fish. We're here to report from Sninky Fishland that, uh, it's, it's not that, it's not that stinky as advertising. Not as stinky as advertised. So if anyone there is from Iceland, if anyone can hear our voices and you're from Iceland, I'm calling you out.
+
+[40:12] Like, this stuff is completely tolerable. I don't know what the heck you guys are, you know, complaining about or thinking that you have some sort of like, you know, like a hardcore applause is as ammoniated as this if it's gone over the hill and I'll eat that anyway because I've already spent the
+
+[40:28] money, even though I know it's not supposed to necessarily be that way. And, uh, that's what I'm going to say about that. What's the, what country is it? Is it is it Greenland or Iceland that has the seal stuffed with puffins? I didn't see any steel, seal stuff with puffing. I saw seal and puffin. I did eat, I think, 12 animals in one day while driving around Iceland. I like that. How was the puffin? Puffin was had great puffin, it had terrible puffin. But Puffin was a lot better than whale. The smoked puffin was delicious. I wish they sold a puffin jerky. Thatd be great. Really? Yeah, I wish they did. Tell me, what's puffin taste like? It again, it was just like almost like a duck jerky. had that kind of that gaminess that duck has. Not quite like a like a white meat chicken, but it was it was delicious. You know, it tasted like puffin. It doesn't taste fishy. It did not taste fishy at all. What about the bad puffin? The bad puffin was just, it wasn't smoked long enough, so it was just kind of squishy in the center. didn't have that smoke flavor all the way through. It just looked like a bad smoking chicken. It is poorly prepared. It wasn't the puffin that was bad. It was to cook. I blame the chef. Yeah, as usual, it's usually, usually that's the, that's the way. Okay, so listen, thank you. Let's give it a shout out to John Raper. I was about to say that. You made me look like I was going to forget. Thanks to John Riper for the delicious Chinook and
+
+[41:46] co-host salmon. It delicious. We will eat more of that at the lunchtime here. Thanks to Don for bringing this hakrel to us and showing that it's not as difficult to consume as people make it out to
+
+[41:59] be. Although if you're from Iceland and you think that the Ecta brand is somehow less
+
+[42:04] hardcore than some brand that you have in, you know, buried in your in your backyard somewhere, then fine. We'll try your backyard very hot, girl, if you can get it to us. And I'm sure we'll get the same crew back to taste it. Thanks to Paul coming in, thanks to Daniel Gritzer, and this has been cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Fairway Market, like no other market, a New York
+
+[0:04] City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. I'm Erica Watt, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to the Ketchup edition of Cooking Issues coming to you, pre-taped. Actually, we're live right now, but we're not streaming live right now, Jack? I mean, yeah, like technically we're always live. I mean, we're not dead. Like we're here. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, but the thing is, like, that never mean, what does that even mean, then? What does live mean? Like, if we're not streaming live. right? You can't really say it's live because live implies that, you know, no
+
+[0:54] no opportunity for, I guess live implies no opportunity for editing. Right. Right? Although there's always an opportunity. Yeah, but yeah, there is always an opportunity for editing. Most importantly, self-editing. But the, yeah, I mean, I guess it's not like we have time to edit these things anyway, right, Jack? So, so as good as live, because we're not going to edit it. Anything we say is just going to show up on this ring. But don't don't bother picking up your telephones and calling because we're not at the studio right now. If you're listening to this, we're not here, right? I mean, maybe we are. And if you listen to this next Tuesday at, uh, If you really want to get into it, I'm sure that most of the time when people listen to cooking issues, we're not
+
+[1:31] here either. when they're podcasting us, you know? Right. Yeah, but hey, you know, but people do call in. It's like, it's like, you know, live-ish. Yeah. You know? Heritage radio network, live-ish. Yeah. Well, and like radio quotes. Right, right? I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. What do you think about this does? I don't know. I don't want to get into it. All right, so listen, we are, though. As usual, joined with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and Jack, back from where were you, Jack? was in Louisville, Kentucky. And how was that? It was awesome. Yeah, what were you doing? Cool town. I spoke on a panel called mastering the media. And did you, in fact, master the media? I was supposed to help others master the media. I told them that podcasts are the Wild West and they seem to like that. Yeah? Yeah. All right. And so, wow, so like, actual radio is like Eastern capitalist bankers and this is like... We're all in an episode of Hell on Wheels right now. Yep. Like, I definitely don't get to be Cullen Bohana, and somebody else, somebody else gets to be Cullen Bohana, not me. You watch that show, Styles? I like that show. You ever been to Louisville though? a cool town. a good town. Yeah, it really is. It's, you know, they got things that I like a lot. They got your whiskey. Whiskey is delicious. They have a lot of it. Oh, you know what else they have? You'll appreciate this. I went and visited the flavor man. They develop all the soda flavors. It's like a lab of flavor science lab. And is it actually one man? Well, the flavor man is one man. His name is Dave, but he's got a pretty big team working for him. Like, it's kind of a good title. Hi, I'm Dave. The flavor man. Yeah. It's a really cool place. show you photos after the show, though. Are the way you allowed to take photos? Yeah. Yeah, they've developed. I mean, they can like, some they can disclose and some they can't. They didn't grind up your camera. Do they tell you who, who you, like, they tell you who the clients are? They can't tell me all the clients. He's like, listen, I do all of the polar brands of soda. Hey, you know what, you know, really ticks me off, Jack, about sodas and Styles will back me up on this. Everyone drinks these, not everyone. A lot of people drink these like flavored seltzer waters. You know what I'm talking about, Jack? It started with that, you know, rancid lemon, fake lemon lime flavor that tastes like you drip to pledge into your water by accident, and then it was like raspberry and black cherry. Yeah, black cherry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the thing, right? I'm all for people drinking things that they like to drink. But the smaller bottlers. And now here's what really ticks, I think, Stasov, right? You hate this. Some of the, like, larger brand names, like Canada Dry, higher independent bottlers, right, to do
+
+[4:09] their their bottling. And these people run seltzer, God's
+
+[4:14] seltzer, unflavored seltzer water, right? soda water or, you know, sparkling water for those of you that have never been, you know, near New York or
+
+[4:23] whatever, because some people don't know what seltzer is. You know that? Weird. Um, They run it through the machines that have had these rancid flavors in
+
+[4:31] them and they poison. So like it's always raspberry with us, right? You crack it open and you get these like raspberry note off your cell, sir, and it ruins it. It makes it taste like it's like, 1st of all, it makes you think, oh, they're not clean. They're unclean people. And then it also, it's just no good, right? So that's what your thoughts on this? Have you noticed this, Jack? Yeah. What the heck is wrong with people? You know what? I've never had... Well, look, I don't buy seltzer outside anymore unless I have to because I, you know, I make my own, but have you ever had that problem with vintage? Vintage, no. No, no, actually, I haven't. Now, God bless a vintage seltzer corporation. What's your seltzer of choice if you have to buy it? Oh, I mean, I'm a New Yorker, so vintage. Okay. Because vintage was the always, it was always 2 bottles for a dollar, right? And any real seltzer drinker only buys one liter bottles because anything less is a waste because you're going to drink a full liter of
+
+[5:24] it and anything more is going to go flat. And if your friend comes over to try and drink some, and they drink out of the bottle, then you have to throw away 2 liters because I don't want the... Oh my god, you know how it is, or at a party, or they'll crack open a 2 liter at the end of the
+
+[5:37] night, and the court... Yeah. And then the whole thing sucks. It's like, it's, look, any real seltzer drinker will tell you, right? The 1st of all, you have to drink everything you buy within about a week because, you know, you
+
+[5:49] want, you want, 1st of all, you want to buy it at a place that has high turnover. So the place where there's dust on top of the bottles of vintage, just ignore it because plastic bottles don't hold CO2 that well and they don't last that long, right? So go to a, you know, a place that gets a good turnover vintage, buy, buy a case of one liters. Like, that's the way to do it, right, does? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I like how we're never going to catch up because we're not going to answer any questions. But one more thing. By the way, seers alls are shipping now. We got the notice, actually, 2 of them shipped on Tuesday when we did our non-ketchup show. Are we doing a show on Tuesday? We can talk about that then, right? Peter and Emma are going to. Yeah, they're going to come. But anyway, but they're shipping, but he, I, like, we've gotten a lot of flak on the Kickstarter over, over the how long it's taken us to get the product out, although,
+
+[6:36] although, we're 3 months, we're 3 months late. We're 3 months late, which in the Kickstarter terms is like not that big of a deal. And I guess people think because there's not a lot of moving parts, but there's not a lot that can go wrong, when you're trying to make something like this
+
+[6:47] here's all, but you're incorrect, you know? You know what happened today, Jack? Somebody said on a Kickstarter, they said, what did they say, Stars? What's going to happen next? The tape on the Amazon boxes won't hold. Oh, just lame trolling. Like, you know what? Put your pants on. Get out of your underwear. Get out of your parents' base. Get out of your parents' basement. Go to, you know, just go outside. You know, like, if you're like me and you burn, wear a hat, but get outside, walk around, you clearly have too much time to troll
+
+[7:19] me, and, you know, I wish everyone happy steering who ordered a seers all. And I hope, I like, really, all we really want is for people to enjoy the product. That's all we really want is that for people to have a good product, they can enjoy. We don't want it to get ruined, right, which was, you know, we just want people to, you know, we want
+
+[7:37] it to be good for people. Except that guy. No, I have another one. I hope that I hope that, you know, the tape does fall off. That's right. Our problem, though, then, after that. No, and once once Amazon, yeah, I guess, well, it's still, until it's in their hands, hopefully with, with, hopefully a tapeless box arrives mangled, but still with a pristine
+
+[7:58] steers all inside to this person's house. And you know what? I still hope they enjoy this yourself. I hope they enjoy it. Uh, searing good and good health. and with good food. Oh, oh, no. And then he or she, I don't really know. Appended worst Kickstarter ever. Which makes us worse than the people. He's a comic book guy then. Yeah, well, it makes us makes us worse than people who actually never delivered a product. You know, I was, I was compared uh, on Twitter. This is by someone who actually just wants a sears also, it's not bad. They were just getting the Samagia. They were getting Samajita, right? Bernie made off of cooking equipment too. Bernie Madoff. I mean, correct me, but more of a Ponzi scheme, right? So if it was a Bernie made off kind of a situation, 1st of all, right, I mean, like, we would have scammed for, like, something a lot bigger than, like, a
+
+[8:52] 65, 65, tears old. But it would work more like this. Listen. Listen, uh, You send me one screen, and then I'm going to get 2 people to send you screens, and we're just going to keep doing this forever, right? Two series all screens. That's how it would have worked. Thats if I was the Bernie Madoff of Sears all. It's a pyramid. It's a pyramid, sweet pyramids game. You know, pyramids games, like, it never, like, ceases to amaze me how much people continue to love a pyramid
+
+[9:23] scheme. You know there's a show? I dont know what network it's on. It's called American Greed. You heard about this? I think Stacy Keach is the what's it called? The narrator for it. Remember Stacy Keach? The actor? I don't. I think it's him. He's played detective. He played like Mike Hammer. You know, your namesake. And, um, And so he narrates this thing on American Greed. It's all about swindlers who have ripped people off with like things that are too good to be true, and it turns out they are too good to be true, and it's always like, it's always like someone in Hoboken or Spokane that's like lost their life
+
+[9:53] savings, and now like they have to work at a gas station, even though they're 85 and like, you know, you know,
+
+[9:59] incapacity. it's horrible stuff. But then the commercials in it are literally, like, the commercials that I saw were to invest in what are clearly schemes, like,
+
+[10:11] fairman schemes. Like this one lady comes on. She's like, she's like, hey, and like, I swear to God, I swear to God,
+
+[10:17] that what they were talking about on the show was this guy who said, listen, I'm going to guarantee you, you know, 12% a year off my real estate investments and was buying just bunk, like real estate that was
+
+[10:30] worthless, and then taking all the new subscriptions and just spending it and paying the dividends out to people.
+
+[10:35] Classic made-off style stuff, right? Needed to keep getting new people in because he wasn't making any money because he wasn't actually investing in anything worthwhile, right?
+
+[10:42] Literally during that segment, there was a lady in a commercial who was like, guaranteed returns on real estate investments, can't lose, you know,
+
+[10:52] just blah, blah, blah. I was like, holy crap. like the world is a weird place. Shame on you, CNBC. Oh, it is CNBC? CNBC. Shame on you. Shame on you. CNBC with your money reporting. Okay, some questions. Finally, people's questions. Oh my goodness. I just punched up the wrong thing. I punched up. Oh, stop playing stereo lab. I was like, my iPhone. We're going to get sued because we're not paying our BMI ASCAP stuff. It's okay if it's through an iPhone speaker through a microphone. I think then all all bets are off. Well, somehow, somehow, I looked up Dropbox to get my the cooking issue's up, but instead it picked up stereo lab, blips drips. So let me get the actual questions up here. Oh, maybe I should switch back to the iPad. I'm having some severe bad luck when I try to iPhone this thing, even with my new tablet. Fablet. Oh you're using that word? I know, it's terrible. Why is it fab? Phone tablet. Fab. But it sounds gross. It says gross. I don't like it. I only I only use it to be kind of like a jerk because it's terrible word. Okay. Brandon Bird. Uh, right? It's not Brendan Bern Arena. It's Brandon Bird. very close. I would love for him to go to a concert at, do they still call it the
+
+[12:11] Brenenburn Arena? Where did you see Fleetwood Mac? That was just softly... You saw Fleetwood Mac? awesome. She said they play for 4 freaking hours. Three. They played for 12 hours. They were they were their own opening band. Oh my god. And by the way, Stas, well known. Disliker of Stevie Nicks before, but now...
+
+[12:33] not disliked, just did not like her compared to Christine
+
+[12:38] McBee. Right. But now, you more respect. I have a lot of respect for her. Yeah, that boy. She's the best. Yeah, that voice is really good. Oh don't go that far. Still still a Christy McVeigh fan over here. Yeah, still like... But, you know, just now she has... Wow. Oh, Stevie Nicks? Yeah. Uh, you know who I saw like, uh, actually, I guess a little bit later era in, uh,
+
+[13:00] was uh, Ann Anne Wilson from Heart. Right? Anne Wilson, right? She kicked from serious behind. awesome. She just tore up the stage when I was at Tales of Cocktail. Yeah, just tore it up. Love to see that. Okay. Brandenburg from Chicago rights in. Hello, Hammer, David, Jack, or whoever's working the boot this time. By the way, I fired up a Searzal last week and what was his name? Elizabeth? Yeah. She was like, oh, my God, the boards are breaking and she just cut the, she's cut the, cut all the mics out. Oh, wow. Because she heard... Anyway. Don't worry, we got you. Nice 1st day on cooking issues for Liz. Yeah, and lots of shark meat. Oh, all this all this like fermented shark meat. Great. Yeah. A few questions for you. I recently used my pressure cooker to render some ground beef fat inside
+
+[13:46] mason jars, and I noticed a curious phenomenon. After cooking for 2 hours and cooling the jars down in room temperature, they still bubbled and beiled. bubble bin boil. Do you like the word boiled? Or does it sound too much like like spore moil? No, no, no. Boiled this point. Well, boiled. Somewhat vigorously, even after the jars were cool to the touch. What is up with that? Okay. So, uh, answer that first. So assuming you're doing the pressure cooking in the jars, a la modernist cuisine has a section on rendering out lard and the pressure cooker because the good news about rendering lard
+
+[14:20] and the pressure cooker is that, okay, okay, look. Let's go through it When you're rendering, not lard in this case, fat. you're rendering fat, you need to get the temperature above, you want to get the temperature above boiling because not all the fat's going to render out at 100. Anyway, so you, and you need to, uh, you need to heat the fat
+
+[14:40] up not just enough to melt the fat, but to break it loose from its, uh, the connective tissue where it is and render it out and you get the cracklings and you get the, well, it depends with pork, you get the
+
+[14:48] cracklings and you get the whatever else, right? With me stars, kind of. The good news about a pressure cooker is that you can't, you're not going to boil off all of the water that's in it. So you're going to get basically a constant 200 and
+
+[15:01] in Fahrenheit, constant, like 250 something degrees Fahrenheit, and tell you've actually steamed all of the water out. So it's a good way to regulate the temperature of the stuff that you're rendering so that it's not going to get any
+
+[15:13] burns in it. It not going to brown now. and beautiful and stuff like this, right? Still has a lot of the water in it, though. So you have to then separate the water out or like solidify it. So this is like the premise. Now, another thing that people do is they add baking soda to the fat when it's rendering supposedly makes it whiter in color. Baking soda is alkaline. So it's probably shifting, making sure that it's not too acidic, it's probably also reducing the, you know, the amount of free fatty
+
+[15:41] acids. I don't really know, but it's like a known thing to add some baking soda to it. Uh, and uh, and the monitors cuisine guys do exactly that. So here is what I think is happening. Baking soda starts to degrade at
+
+[15:57] temperatures, even without, so typically when you're using baking soda, right? You take baking soda and you add an acid to it, and then you get a reaction where you are forming a carbon
+
+[16:10] dioxide, right? And that's how the leavening works. However, baking soda, even not in the presence of an acid, will start to decompose and form carbon dioxide. And it'll do that at temperatures inside of a pressure cooker.
+
+[16:23] So my guess about what's happening. And I ask Chris Young about it too. Ask them about it. My guess is that when you're heating up the stuff in the jar, right? You're decomposing some of the, um, you're decomposing some of the baking soda, that's forming carbon dioxide. The carbon dioxide is then going into solution, and the water might also be an oil. I don't know about the solubility of CO2 into oil. I mean, I know N2O is very soluble in oil. That's why we use it in whipped cream. I presume CO2 is somewhat soluble in oil, but I really don't know. But there's also still water phase in there, remember? So what you're doing is, is you're putting a large amount of
+
+[16:57] CO2, or not a large amount, but an amount of CO2 into the liquid at a relatively high
+
+[17:05] pressure. And I'm presuming that when it cools off as the pressure decreases, the CO2 is bubbling
+
+[17:11] out or maybe it's still producing CO2. I don't know. To me, it's got to be a CO2 effect. I can't think of anything else, reason why. After it's cool to the touch, it would continue to bubble unless it's continued production of CO2. That's all I can think about. And then as the pressure reduces, more stuff will bubble out. But on the other hand as it cools, it becomes more soluble. So, who knows? It's a crapshoot. But it's the only thing I could think of, and Chris seemed like it seemed reasonable. But I don't know. an interesting phenomenon. Anyone else who knows, please write it and tell us. Oh, and here's some here's some stuff. This also, by the way, he is a fan of these flavors. Really? Of these seltzer flavors. Like you, I'm a big fan of bubbles. Hello, cell, sir, and quite enjoy mixing carbonated water from my soda stream with fresh citrus juice.
+
+[17:52] Do you like that word? Yeah. I also quite enjoy citrus flavored carbonated beverages from brands like... strong. That sound, man, yeah, like, can we can we just have that as like our, like, yeah, I got to get that on the sound effects board. Her flavored seltzer noise. Like Lacroix, Lacroix. How do you pronounce? How do you think that Americans pronounce this thing? La croix? I guess. The crocs. LaCroix. LaCroix, I guess? Americans? Yeah, LaCroix. Do you have any insight as to how beverages like that are produced? Is it simply a matter of dosing carbonated water with essential oils or is there something else involved? Okay. First of all, no, no, not essential oils. Essential. when you're using oils. Oils have to be suspended in emulsion. They're typically not clear. When you add them to, the classic one of this is citrus beverages like
+
+[18:44] Sunkist, which aren't clear, they're a little bit cloudy, and it's because they have emulsified oils in them. Those emulsified oils need to be stabilized. And so for short stabilization periods, you can, if you want to do this, you can do this. You can get essential oils and you can emulsify them with gum Arabic and very strong into kind of a water slash or alcohol slash oil emulsion with gum Arabic
+
+[19:08] water. I would do water and then add stabilize without coffee. need to put. anyway, boom. So you have this like central oil that's emulsified. It's going to be cloudy looking, like white, cloudy, like chalky water. That you can then add to soda and you can drink it like that. It's fine. And because the emulsion size is very, very small. So you're not going to get a lot of excess bubbling. It's not like adding like lemon juice to it or something like this. You're not going to get a huge amount of bubbling out. You're going to be okay because the particles are too really small to cause a lot of nucleation, presuming you do it right. Right? So you should be okay there. In the business, though. Uh, the gum Arabic isn't stable enough to have it uh, suspend for a long, long time. So what they do, what they used to do, is they would use brominated vegetable oil. And the bromine makes the oil. Remember, oil is lighter than water. So the bromine that they add to the essential oil makes the basic oil droplet
+
+[20:01] heavier because part of it is the essential oil and part of it is brominated vegetable oil. And that has a weight that's heavier than water. So when you add the oils together into the droplets. They get a relatively neutral buoyancy and they don't want to float out. And by adding brominated vegetable oils, you can get a citrus beverage that's
+
+[20:19] going to be stable through the next ice age, roughly. But, uh, you know, that order of magnitude, or, you know, till we have a nuclear war, whatever, whatever it is, nuclear war ice age, whichever comes first,
+
+[20:29] uh, whatever. However, people don't like brominated vegetable oil anymore because there might be some health
+
+[20:36] risks, et cetera, et cetera. And so people have moved away from it. And now, uh, like one of the replacements that they're using is uh, something called sucrose, uh,
+
+[20:45] acetoisobuterate, or S-A-I-B for not as crazy, which apparently is non-toxic, but I didn't really know relatively little about it because I don't do that. I don't really do that kind of stuff for living, right? So I was going to do that. But the way they make the clear beverages is they use extracts,
+
+[21:02] right? So the extracts are only stuff that are soluble in water and
+
+[21:07] alcohol usually. Some of them will cloud when they're dissolved, depending on how they do it, but usually they'll compound those flavors, such that they don't cloud up when they're diluted and they
+
+[21:18] work. So the flavors aren't going to be the same. That's why these things don't really taste like real... I mean, they're not really, like, you're losing whole parts of the, of the citrus when they're doing that, because they're adding only compounds that are, uh, that, you know, are going to be soluble in water and stay clear.
+
+[21:38] And they're specific people that make that. So you're going to buy, you're going to buy the extract that's right for that. And by the way, just because the flavor is natural. Do people know this in general, just because the flavor is natural, flavor, man, doesn't mean that it's the flavor that you are buying. Yeah, talked about this. Yeah. So usually if you say something has natural lemon flavor, right? And you don't want to say on it, although lemons, whatever, you don't want to say on it, natural lemon flavor with other added weirdness,
+
+[22:10] right? What you do is you say the lemon flavor, it has to have some component from a lemon in it,
+
+[22:16] right? And then warmth. Wump, which W-O-N-F, with other natural flavors. And all it means is, is they make purified chemical flavors from natural sources and then dope it back in. So there's really no, I mean, my estimation, no advantage, really. That's what, like natural flavor versus artificial flavor, uh, like unless someone literally is doping something with a poisonous
+
+[22:44] flavor, really means nothing to me. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't really care. Like, I care, does it taste the way I want it to taste? You know what I mean? That's all I'm saying. Yeah, he was saying nothing that's labeled cherry would ever have cherry in it. Benzaldehyde. Yeah, it depends on where they get it. If they get it from a natural source, then it's a natural flavor. You know what I'm saying? And then if there's like one molecule from a cherry somewhere in there, then you're good. You know, it's like, it's an absurd thing. It's an absurdity that, like, you know, we focus on, it's because, um, as soon as you have something with a
+
+[23:18] label and then there's a rule for that label, then companies will figure out how to work around that label to make the product, uh, in a way that's good for the company to make that product that fits the letter of
+
+[23:31] the of the law for the label. That's it, you know? Yeah, whatever. But anyway, I have no problem with flavors as long as they taste good. Do you like Apple Jack stars? The cereal? Yeah, love that. Right? But what do they not taste like? Yeah, that's why I like it, though. Yeah, well, there was, we've talked about this in the air before, I think, but there was a commercial a number of years
+
+[23:53] ago where these, uh, the kids were like, these don't taste like apples and then
+
+[23:59] stars was on saying, but I still love them, right? Yeah, that was in, what, 87? Something like that. don't know. Wait, you were on the commercial? No. no. It might as well have been done. be awesome. Might as well have it does. But like the, the thing is, the point is, of all this, is that people like
+
+[24:15] apple jacks because they taste like apple jacks, not because they taste like apples. And like whether the flavor is real or not, you know, artificial or natural, uh, you know, you, you know, is not an, if what you care about is not having stuff that's been dorked and mucked with, then real or natural is not the
+
+[24:33] label you should be looking for, right? Whatever. Uh, but Daz Clear doesn't care about that because she just wants her Apple Jacks tastes like Apple Jacks. Right? Anyways. Fruity rings. Stars, for a minute. if I can for a minute. The flavors of gummy bears that you like versus the flavors you don't like are which ones? I like the white ones. And that's it? I can deal with the red and the green, but the rest can go. Which of the ones you specifically don't like? Yellow and orange. Well, most people don't like yellow and orange of anything. Jack, what are your thoughts on this? Is that true? She's a believer that most people are not a fan of the yellow and why? The yellow you get too much of a lemon pledge flavor? I mean it depends. As a kid, when you got a bunch of yellow and oranges of anything, it was always the majority. Oh, yeah, I used to buy that. Red is what everyone wanted. Red ones, yeah. Yeah, I used to buy the, you know how Tic Tacs used to come in dual flavor packs, like they would mix. Maybe they still do. You know what I'm talking about? Two colors in one. I used to love the yellow orange pack. Of course. Oh, the orange Tic Tacs are good. I like those. Oh no. What about the tangerine lifesavers? No, I don't like orange flavored candies. Really? Do you like orange sherbet or sorbet? Yeah, I can, yeah. Do you like creamstickles? Because good. All right, because otherwise, we would have had a fist fight right here. I would have lost, but we would have had. No, you know, you have the same increase. I have the same increase, but like, I don't have like a high enough level of anger right now. You know, it's like, yeah. So I have a I have a simian crease. them what it means. What it means is that, you know how, what are those 2 lines? Anyone a palm reader here? No, no, clearly not. in your palm. Everyone has multiple lines in their palm. Yeah, and you usually have one that's like coming around your thumb and curving down and then you have one that curves up coming over from your pinky, right? I don't. I got one line that goes straight across. Oh, it's a semi-increase. So either I'm a monkey, hence to Simeon. And certain, you know, people with genetic dispositions towards mental retardation also have
+
+[26:31] it. But WePop, you know, who I now feel for deeply because he had his Kickstarter delays with
+
+[26:38] Nomiku from Thailand. And he's like, oh, in Thailand, that means that you're going to murder someone by
+
+[26:46] accident. I was like, what the hell? Who the hell has like this specific A, like, palm reading thing? based on? I think like after autopsy stuff. Probably they were like, oh, that man has it and that man has it. And then they all murdered somebody. Case closed by accident. Yeah. But it's by accident. By accident. Specifically by accident. Specifically, they did it, but they were doing it by accident, which seems... They had gotten a fistbite. Oh, well, he didn't say fistfight. just adding this now. just adding stuff. No, I'm saying that's probably what happened. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. All right, last question from Brandon Bird. Also, a couple weeks back, you answered a question about storing flowers and other powder storage products. In a freezer,
+
+[27:25] from someone who had an allergy concern. We have another question. That was who had the allergy, because it was a Sam? anyway, I'll look it up. You mentioned you regularly store high-end flowers in the freezer that you haven't noticed, any appreciable decline in quality. I'm wondering why that's so, considering that you have eyes against during baked starch products like bread in the freezer, because of the negative effects caused by starch retro gradiation,
+
+[27:43] best Brandenburg. First of all, freezing bread is okay, freezing it. The problem is refrigeration storage isn't bread. So, and the general rule of thumb in the literature, the industrial literature, I don't want to say scientific, it's more industrial literature, on bread
+
+[28:00] baking, and bread storage, is that a single freeze thaw cycle that you go
+
+[28:06] through. And by the way, you want to freeze it quickly and you want to thaw it quickly. But that single free thaw cycle is worth about a day's worth of storage in terms of staling at room temperature, which is why if you're
+
+[28:18] gonna, but once it's frozen, you don't lose anything. So if you're going to freeze bread, right? And you're freezing it today, right? Then it's like when you thought to eat it right away, it's like you're eating it tomorrow night,
+
+[28:31] right? But if you wait till tomorrow night to freeze it, it's like you're losing another day after that. Does that make sense to us? So it's the freezing itself isn't the problem. It's as it goes in and out of freezing. The real problem is refrigeration temperatures. Okay. The other thing is that the flowers don't fit those rules at all because starch retrogradation only applies to starches that have been cooked, right?
+
+[28:57] And, you know, hydrated with water. And then over time, those, um, the starch is like uh, recrystallize, right? And so then the water becomes a mound that goes stale. So starch retrogradation is only a problem in starches that have been cooked already and where you don't want to have them recrystallize. Yeah, makes sense. Okay. Uh, oh, and he also adds, uh, PS, going through your back episodes, I noticed that you solicited names for the product that became the
+
+[29:26] sears all. Being late to the game. I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring in hopes that you come out with a larger format, tabletop broiler in the future. My suggestion, the Hellbender. Hellbenders are monstrous amphibians, the largest salamanders native to North America. They look scary and have a sweet name. I know you like salamander puns. Piper really used to like the salamander puns. And Hellbender sounds much better than Sally Hander. Sorry, pipes, or Sally Maddock. No offense. He says no offense to Piper. Not me, don't worry. Looking for Piper, whatever. I don't know. If I see him, I'll ask him. I'm looking forward to getting my all searing eye sometimes soon. Cheers, Brandon Bird. Okay. Michael writes in. Hello, Dave, Anastasia, and all mother masters of sound. Ooh, I like how you like that, Jack? Master of sound. Mother, master of sound. Is that what you said? Yeah, I'm all mad. No, and all masters of sound. Okay, all there. I like master sound, though. I like mother master sound. That's my next band. Mother Masters of Sound. I like that. Sweet. Someone make that band. Like, just do some garage, what's it called, called, GarageBand on your new iPhones. Oh, wait, do you want to tell them about your new movie? Jesus here. No, I don't want to talk about that. We don't have a name for him yet. Although Daniel Gritzer, who is here on Tuesday, came up with a sweet name. What was it? Santa's little hipster? Oh, yeah. Santa's little hipster. You know who we're talking about, Jack? No, he's new. Oh, I know who you're talking about. The new indie Jesus. Yeah, yeah, but he's not he's not Jesus related, but he is he is Christmas related. He's Santa's little hipster is awesome. And I don't want anyone, he's not a dwarf. Don't come back and say that we're, he just looks like an elf with like hipster elf. There's a reason for this nickname, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it has nothing to do with his height, so don't write in and say that we're bad people. Okay. How much salt do you add to food when cooking? Not brining? Is it possible to calculate? Is it based at all on water content and food? Also, does perception of salt really change when it is added at different stages of cooking? Also, can one calculate how much of a spice or herbed add when cooking? And ratios of one spice to another overall are there universal constants? No. I don't think so. I mean, I always, there's certain recipes that you know what's going to happen, and so you add definite percentages. So breads. You typically add a percentage, and every baker knows what percentage they are going to add of salt, and you typically then you're salting on flour basis, not on flour and water basis, because after it's all said and done, when you bake, you really care about the quantity of salt in the final product, not in
+
+[31:54] the, not in the, in the dough, and usually your hydrations level out when you bake, right? I mean, just be honest. unless it's like something really, really dry. And so typically for a given recipe, uh, style, like a cookie or a bread, you'll use a particular percentage.
+
+[32:09] And I used to use, you know, McGee told me about this writer, bread writer in San Francisco, who's apparently well known, used to work, I think,
+
+[32:16] in Acme, and he, I forget his name. And, uh, you know, he wrote that in the old days, we would use like a percent, uh, a percent to a percent and a half assault, which is what I typically would have used in bread back in the day, bread and pizza dough, things like this.
+
+[32:30] He says modern people are pushing up like over 2% on salt, which seems high, but, you know,
+
+[32:37] anyway, but the point is, is that salt levels, I guess, have been rising up in a lot of these artisan breads over the past couple of decades, but yeah, so that has a definite percentage. And I think you can do the same thing. With other things,
+
+[32:49] she made a noise. Me too. With other things that are kind of uniform. So you know when rice comes in, like it doesn't have salt in it. And so you can calculate, I haven't done it, but you can calculate a percentage that you're going to add, uh, of salt to
+
+[33:03] a rice before you cook it. What I would do, if I did, I would take the rice that you make, I would take a batch, uh, make a batch, weigh it, and then you know exactly what the weight is
+
+[33:13] of, of, uh, particular rice after you cook it and then do a percentage basis on that, like a percent or so, probably a
+
+[33:19] percent percent too, whatever. But when you're dealing with things, Other things, especially things that have some their own inherent salt in them, you never know how much salt you're going to need to add because you don't know what the flavor of the original thing
+
+[33:32] was, and certain things require more salt than others based on the levels of other flavors that are present in them. You know, does that make sense to us? And as to whether you should add it before or after, I think a lot makes a difference. If you add salt to bread afterwards, then you're a then you're a nasty Tuscan person and we all know Tuscan bread is terrible. It just tastes awful because they don't put salt in it. So you have to clearly, with bread, add it, add it before, before you make it, when you're making the dough. It can also make a difference, for instance, in bread when you add it, because it also changes how fast the yeast
+
+[34:04] works. When you're soaking beans in salted water, the salt can change the rate of the absorption of the water into the beans.
+
+[34:11] So like in certain cases, it makes a functional difference when you add the salt. But in other cases, I think it almost always makes sense to add salt as you're cooking. Oh, another one, meat. If you add salt to meat before you cook it, if you add it a long time before you cook it, then it can change the texture of the meat, right? So that's why if I'm doing a long cook of something like a steak, and I want it to taste like a fresh, like a broiled steak, I won't add the salt if I'm going to cook it for a long time because I don't want the texture of the meat to taste more like a cured texture of meat, which it will at the
+
+[34:41] sauce there for a long time, well, especially when it's cooking for a long time. Okay. So there you have it on that. But other than that, or for instance, I'm sorry, if you're going to make a stock, you don't add the salt now, because you don't know what form you're going to use the stock, and you're going to reduce it, and then your salt level's all wrong. However, when you're using ingredients and you know that the ingredients that you're preparing it into its final state. Like, for instance, I'm making a sauce and this sauce is going to go on something else, right? I want the sauce to taste the right level of salt, so I'll salt the sauce while I make it. I also want the meat that I'm putting the sauce on to have the right level of salt, so I'll have the meat taste good if you were to taste it without the sauce. I think in general, if you follow the rule, have everything taste good on its own in terms of its salt level, when you combine them, they'll still taste good. I'm not such a fan of saying, I'm going to make one bland piece of crap, and then I'm going to put something really salty on top of it because then the 2 things are unbalanced on their
+
+[35:32] own. And what if someone takes a bite of one and not the other? Or what if you have a piece of potato that you didn't salt the
+
+[35:37] water? Because for some reason, you don't like to salt water. I don't know what's wrong with you. don't know why you didn't salt your potato water. But if you did that, right, and some guy got a big chunk of potato
+
+[35:44] with a little bit of salt on the outside, well, that potato's going to be bland because the interior of that potato is not going to have any freaking flavor, right? Whereas if Pearson has a small piece of potato, they're not going to have too much salt because they have relatively more sauce on it.
+
+[35:55] So in that situation, I would say, add the salt doll at once. You know what I mean? Okay. Would that make any sense? Yeah, all right. All right. Okay. What do you think, Jax? that okay? Yeah, think you got it. Oh, and same thing with spices. First of all, spices are even worse, like spices and herbs, because the relative pungency or power of the given spice or herb is wildly dependent on how old it is, where it was sourced, the variety it is,
+
+[36:21] et cetera, et cetera. So there's really no rules. That's why when people ask for recipes and you give them a recipe and like, you know, it's got like, I don't know, time in it. I don't know how much time you need to add. Why don't you just chop up the time. And then when it tastes right, you're done. You know what I mean? But you're not allowed to write a recipe that says, add the amount that makes it taste good. You know what I'm saying? People hate when you write recipes like that. But I'm, I'm, like, I'm famous for, uh, with, with lanterns. I was well known for always just saying, make it taste right sucker, right? Anyways. Okay. I just fast blasted you something. We had a question from Andre in Germany that has gone unanswered for a while. Just... You sure we didn't answer that one? Because I have that one here right here. Like, it's the next one on the thing, but we sure we didn't we didn't get to that one? Yeah, he sent me a few emails here this week, so... Andrea with eggs. Hi there. I have a question for Dave on cooking issues. I'm from Germany and listen to your show regularly. I have a question regarding baking without eggs. I am not a vegan, but don't tolerate eggs, and all my attempts at baking cakes have been awful. Bunt. I like that word bunt. Bunt and sponge cakes turned out extremely moist and heavy, not light and fluffy at all.
+
+[37:31] This might be okay in a fudgy brownie. and fudgy brownie like cakes, but I am looking for a sponge chiffon cake. I like, you don't like sponge, right? The word. No. No. Sponge chiffon cake that is usually just made with eggs, flowers, sugar, and baking powder. And that can be used for layering cakes with whipped cream as for Swiss rolls, kind of like an angel food cake, but with the yolks also being used. I've tried various egg replacers, but they don't work well either. Do you have any idea and a good recipe for that? Thanks for your help. Andrea. Okay. Well, uh, Okay. Uh, eggs are uh, a miracle, right? And so like they have various different functions and in different cakes, they they do various things. Obviously, they add a structure in the form of protein. Let me see whether I actually... They add structure in the form of protein, or in ancient food cakes, they add, um,
+
+[38:25] in ancient food cakes, they add, uh, actual foam, right? So you've whipped them into a foam and you beat it in. So there's usually not a single egg and also there are emulsifiers, right? Because when you're adding egg yolks or something, you and fat. You add fat and emulsifiers, which can also, you know, improve the texture of cakes. So I don't think you're going to find any one single egg replacer that's going to replace all of the,
+
+[38:48] um, you know, all of the different functions that eggs can perform even within a cake. That said, there are people working on this problem right now. Uh, notably Bill Gates as a big uh, investor in uh, a company that's doing, there's
+
+[39:01] two, I think, main fake egg companies and they're both in California, of course. And uh, one of them is uh, already come out with a non-eg mayonnaise, a mayonnaise, right? What's that, Jack, do you know what this is called? Maybe you could do a quick search for me. Uh, and there's another, um, company that's working on eggs that can literally uh, be scrambled and eaten as though they were an egg. So they're looking to get the color right, the texture, and I guess also somewhat the flavor.
+
+[39:28] Wait, so it's a non-eg product that can be scrambled? That's right Okay. And I've seen it. And here's the thing, right? Uh, uh, and I talked to Harold McGee about this, and I think Nathan Mirvold was actually uh, was pimped out for one of the, uh, one of the products where, like, they cooked it at his place and served it to someone
+
+[39:47] else, and that someone else who's by no means an egg expert was like, tastes like an egg to
+
+[39:51] me. Here's the thing. Like, when you're, when you're like, this is, like, a classic vegetarian argument against meat is that you can just make a meat replacer and that most people can't tell the difference.
+
+[40:03] Well, most people can't tell the difference between a piece of meat that's been cooked to death
+
+[40:10] and, uh, you know, a meat replacer that's been cooked to death because once it turns into a piece of shoe leather, who the hell cares whether it came from an animal or from a
+
+[40:18] vegetable? You know what I'm saying? There is no one on God's green earth that can take and make something yet that I'm like, that tastes exactly like a medium rare rib steak. You know what I mean? That has the same freaking texture as medium rare ribsteak. You ever had that happen to you, Jack? No, of course not. No, no. They're like, but like if you want to, you know, serve like good mushrooms or something. I don't know. They're delicious. They're delicious. But like the meat replacing people are like, when I make an overly spiced chili that would have had
+
+[40:46] overcooked, particleized, crappy hamburger meat in it, you can barely tell that you don't have the particleized, crappy hamburger meat. Well, that's not really a fair judge whether or not you're making a good meat replacer. Brooks's hamburgers are pretty good. They're not hamburgers. They good. They're a good patty product. They're a good patty product. I would eat it on a bun. In fact, have many times. By the way, how's this for a word? It's the vague. The vague? The 100% plant-based egg yolk replacement. Oh, vague with 2 E's. Yeah. A 2G's rather. Vague. Yeah. I don't know. I think with, you know, when you got Gates money behind you. You can't do better than vague. if that's the one. I think or maybe it's vague, vague. No, but it's like supposed to be like the incredible edible vague. Anyway. But the point is, is that I'm sure that you can make something that approximates a really poorly cooked, uh,
+
+[41:42] overcooked, scrambled egg, especially if you're going to dump a bunch of Tabasco sauce onto it and eat it with hash browns. Then, yeah, you probably could. But replacing an actual egg, whatever. What I'm not talking about. talking about cakes. So typically when you're doing a cake, it depends on what you want to replace, you need the leaven somewhat. So you're going to need some way to aerate it. You can typically, you could do that with commercial leaveners, but in order to get that, um, spongy chiffani like thing, uh, you might want to, um, uh, you're going to need to add some sort of
+
+[42:14] a protein to it. So, not protein, sorry. Although you could add some protein to it actually, as well. That'll mimic some of this stuff, but you're gonna want to add something that stabilizes the bubbles in it while it's forming because you're not
+
+[42:25] going to have the egg structure to hold it together while it's baking. So what typically what you'll do in an egg replacer is you'll add some form of thickener,
+
+[42:33] like some hydrocolid thickener, and xanthan gum, and xanthan gum will
+
+[42:38] hold the structure while you are while you're baking. But there are some alternatives that you could try. I'll give you some. So Johnny Azini and I, years ago. And I think he actually published this recipe, so you can go look for it somewhere. I think he published it. We're working. We wanted to do an angel food cake style thing that didn't have any egg whites in
+
+[42:59] it. And the reason is we didn't want to have that kind of protein feeling from the egg whites that you get from egg whites
+
+[43:04] and an egg flu cake. So we used ISI or EC whippers, you know, whipped cream whippers to produce the foam
+
+[43:13] texture, and we used methyl cellulose. So methyl cellulose, but not actually methyl cellose, methyl cell, which is a Dow brand of sometimes methyl cellulose, sometimes hydroxy
+
+[43:21] propomethyl cellos, blah, blah, blah. But they have the interesting property that they gel when you heat them, right? So we added, I believe it was methogel, uh, the SG, uh, I think it was
+
+[43:33] SGA7C. It's been a long time, but I think he published it. I can't remember exactly. It been a long time. But anyway, so you add this methocell 2 year batter. You put the batter in an anisi whipper, you charge it with a bunch of
+
+[43:45] antu-o. You foam it into the pan, and you throw it in the oven. The bubbles are formed already from the from the foaming in the in the
+
+[43:52] ECWhip, and then as it heats, it sets very quickly in into a gel. The gel holds the shape of the angel of the angel food cake like thing while it bakes. And then when it cools off, the starch holds it together. So you don't need the egg anymore. So that was the one way to do it. Another way you could probably do it. is by making a fluid gel, which I'm going to talk about a little bit later for a different question that comes in. You can make a fluid gel with, um, uh, you wouldn't want to use Agar because Agar will break in the oven at those temperatures, but you use low
+
+[44:21] asyl, geland, which is a hydrocoloid. You can make a light, you know, pretty, you can make a pretty thick fluid gel, actually, and use that for the water base of the
+
+[44:28] cake. You could even do it milk based if you wanted. Use that as the water base of the cake, and that will provide some structure such that after it aerates, the bubbles won't pop. But you might need to pre-aerate, or you could probably maybe get away with just the aeration from creaming. I don't know Depends on what kind of cake you're gonna make. you're going to make one with fat or if you're going to make one that needs to be aerated by whipped egg whites. If you're going to do something that needs something like whipped egg whites, you could use Versa Whip to whip together a liquid base and then set that with
+
+[44:56] Xanthan or some fluid gel so that it doesn't break. There's a bunch of different things you could go through or you could just try a commercial egg replacers. Does this make any sense? Anyway, if that's, if you need more information, uh, you know, give me, give me a holler. I don't have any recipes off the top of my head. But again, look, Johnny Azini might have published that recipe we did. It was years and years ago, like 6 years ago or something like that. Chris Shetton writes in on Brian Penetration. Howdy, Dave, the Hammer. Oh, he could Joe in the tools. Well, Joe, you know, Jack. Joe did come back that one week, though. Yeah, Joe is around sometimes. Yeah. He's pretty famous. Yeah, my man Joe. Yeah. We've been brining our chickens, if non-kosher, since the oldie Cooks Illustrated article popularized it. We also Brian Fish to prevent protein bleedout. Typically for chicken or pork, we do a 5% solution for 12 hours or so. Works fine, no problems there, and we like the results. We believe we understand the process. osmotic pressure, higher, lower salt concentrations, et cetera. But we've seen a number of brines that include non-water soluble flavorings. Thomas Keller's chicken brine, for example, has honey. Okay, that's water soluble. But also bay leaves, garlic, peppercorn, rosemary, lemon, onion times, parsley, et cetera. Since these herbs and spices are not water soluble. Can they actually penetrate the protein and flavor of the meat? Even if they can, can they penetrate more than the surface layer of the fresh, fresh flesh? Even if so, which earth spices would imbue more flavor more successfully? And what's the mechanism? Thanks for all the great info on cooking issues. Chris Shelton, Shenton, rather. Okay, here's the here's the thing. Well, like a lot of that stuff is water soluble, but the most larger molecules. Salt is a relatively small molecule. And also, the interesting thing about salt is that salt, as well as acids, radically
+
+[46:32] affect kind of how proteins in the muscles act. And so they can have a very big effect. And then the question is whether or not like they penetrate the surface or whether they don't. Most spices are really on the surface. Salt, there's some arguments on how much penetration you get on salt, but I'm going to refer all of you, rather than having a discussion of it myself. I'm going to refer to you to what a couple of years ago was not that widely read a blog as far as I can tell, but everyone should go take a look at it. It's a genuineideas.com. It's a guy. he's some sort of scientist. His last name is Blonder. Genuine ideas.com has done the best work on brining ever because he did a bunch, cooked a bunch of stuff, and here's what's cool. He cooked a bunch of stuff, and then after he cooked it and sliced it, soaked it in salt revealing dyes that could actually show the penetration of salt of an actual cooking, not marking penetration based on
+
+[47:28] dye penetration, but actual salt penetration on the cut surfaces of meat. So I just, rather than going into it, I recommend you all read that. And then if we want to have some discussion about his section on brining,
+
+[47:41] you know, then we can, but it's excellent. So go take a look at that. Matt Maroon writes in on foam. Hey, guys, I made an awesome hot toddy using mulled apple cider,
+
+[47:52] angostera, bitters, dark rum, uh, Angostera, yeah, dark rum, uh, fat wash with brown butter and maple syrup. I topped it with La Burnadan's caramel foam. By the way, when you say LeBronan, it means Michael Lisconas is formerly a Bernadette, a great, great well-known pastry chef. caramel foam, and then give me a link to the recipe, and the recipe is quarter cup sugar, tablespoon water, 2 large egg yolks, 3
+
+[48:18] quarters cup heavy cream, 3 tablespoons, uh, plus a teaspoon of whole milk, and a half sheet, uh,
+
+[48:26] half half of a 2 gram sheet of gelatin. So basically you're making a gelatin stabilized whipped cream in the ISI. It was done in ISI, foamed out. bop. Okay? Okay, that's how Lisconas did it. One person who drank it noted that if you drink too slowly, the foam melts and leaves an unappealing mess floating on the cider. You know what? It's like, you know, your friends can't just accept the freaking drink you gave them. They have to like complain about the unappealing mess and the service. It's typical, right? You know, it's like, it's like I was like, uh, okay, so like when the iPhone was coming out, right? Uh, the, like, they were having problems with the store because I happen to be up. I was working. Actually, interestingly, on Sears all stuff. I was working on stuff when they went on sale, 3 AM my time, right? So I go on and the Apple Store is not working. I'm like, these guys didn't get their store up on time. I was like, oh, yeah, people make mistakes. You know? Your friends should get, people make mistakes, you know? I'm so much more forgiving now. But like after I've had to do after I've had to go through it, I'm much more forgiving of when things go wrong, you know? So, you know, your friend used to give you a big bad break on that. But anyway, yes, we're going to solve your problem anyway. Uh, the foam melts. It leaves an unappealing mess floating on the cider. Is there anything I could do to slow that down, like methocellulose or something? The foam already has gelatin in it. Three of the 4 of us drank it too quickly to be an issue, but I thought there might
+
+[49:45] be nice to slow down the melting a little, if it were possible. So 3 of the 4 of you were reasonable. You just drank that sucker, right? I'm going to go back to what I said before. You're going to want to use some form of a fluid gel. So reinforced creams. So forget the gelatin. throw the gel bah, gone, right? Get rid of it. You're also about to go vegetarian. Well, yes, but not vegan because you have egg yolks in it if you want. Whatever you want. What you're going to do is you're going to take the water and the milk. Uh, and that might be enough actually. Now, you might need to take a portion of the cream as well. And you're going to set it in a one% as a one% agar gel. You're then going to blend that gel. Now you have to have enough of it. You have to make like 300 grams or more of this of this Agar gel. Uh, and then you get a, you could do like, you could do, uh, actually, you know what? one%'s kind of high. You could do one% and then just add enough cream back to it to get the texture what you want. So you're gonna make an Agar gel with this stuff. Then blend the hell out of it. Then, uh, you're going to mix it with the cream and the egg yolks, you're going to shake it, right? And then remember, this is a fluid gel, okay? So you're gonna need, and by the way, when you blend it, if it looks like little shards, then it's not blended
+
+[51:03] enough. It has to look creamy. So then you put it in the whipped cream container. You flick the whipped cream, put your finger over the tip. 1st time doesn't matter. Second, 3rd time it does. Flick down, right, to make sure that all the product is slammed against the head of it, then dispense.
+
+[51:17] And the Agar fluid gel will prevent meltout. I do this all the I do this all the time. Two minutes, but I'm not done with all the catch. I have a lot of questions this week for, yeah, so you can still... All right, Mildred writes in on ISI and Soda Street. And hello, everyone, at cooking issues. This is Mildred from Albany, New York with a completely different question that I'm going to try the 1st batch of mushroom ketchup that we talked about before this weekend.
+
+[51:39] I want to pick up an EC Whipper, so I can try rapid infusions, but my housemates are more interested in picking up a soda stream who just posted a big loss.
+
+[51:45] They're stock went way through the floor. hopefully they can pick themselves back up. Uh, as a trial. I know that CO2 isn't strong enough to do decent infusions, but are we doomed to multiple devices? Can one use a CO2 cart, which is one of the types of EC whippers for soda, and then an N2O cartridge for infusion or foam. If so, are there any specific accessories I can get to make it work, and what additional care and maintenance steps do I take to make sure I don't mess up with the whipper, thanks in
+
+[52:09] advance, and keep it tasty Mildred. Unfortunately, you will need multiple things. It's completely un, uh, you will spend
+
+[52:16] more, uh, if you make uh, any reasonable amount of seltzer. You will spend more trying to do seltzer in the in the whipper than you will just doing it in the soda screen. The soda stream is much more convenient for making things like seltzer, and then keep the whipper for whipped cream and infusions and stuff like that.
+
+[52:33] You won't regret having them. They're different, but you can't really get one to do the thing for the other. I thought you said I had 2 more minutes. We're done. You can do more ketchup on Tuesday show though. All right, listen, I have to talk about, I did all this research on Christoph and cooking bass. Still in your head. And I did all, you know, talk about liquid smoke. What else am I going to talk about? We're going to talk about the way we cook brats with the food truck. We're finally going to get to the auto live step with Calvell and bread, custards. Oh my god, fennel. Oh my god. All this stuff. All right. So we'll get to it. Next week, the almost catch up show. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[53:28] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:47] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the food scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwich, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org, for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Dishes, coming to your Live, from Apartis P3 and Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every
+
+[0:38] Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined not with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. She's not doing well today. So instead, not as a not as a consolation prize, but, you know, in your own rights and as awesome folks, we have
+
+[0:49] Peter Kim and Emma Bose from the Museum of Food and Drin. Yo, so, hey, by the way, I need to provide a visual for what we just saw when Dave does that intro thing. He has like sweat beating on his forehead. And you know that scene in Total Recall when Arnold Schwarzenegger goes out on Mars and his eyes start like bugging out. I was going to hope I got to be Quato. I'm just getting to be Arms Schwarzenegger with his eyes bugging him. mean, Quato is the guy to be. I like inburied in someone else's chest, I thought. No, no, no. This is more like your eyes are bugging out like Arnold Schwarzenegger in total recall, but that's the image that I saw when you were doing that opening thing. Do you know, I've used that reference, uh, like countless dozens of times teaching uh, sous vide and vacuum work, like the, whenever, like, I try to talk about what happens to a piece of meat, when you put it in a vacuum machine and it's warm, for instance, close to body temperature, even room temperature, I always try to bring up, uh, the total recall where Schwarzenegger's eyes are puffing
+
+[1:45] out. Do you remember the noises he was making? He's holding, remember, he's going back and forth. It's like halfway between a person and a pig and it sounds very unlike the Schwarzenegger that we all know and love. By the way, I had a weird Schwarzenegger dream. Like 2 nights ago, I was hanging out with him and I was totally surprised that he, in the dream. also uses all of his own catchphrases, like at random, just at random times, he would just say, get to the chopper, like randomly. So I bet you, like, I wonder in real life whether he does that or not. I think my favorite source of Schwarzenegger quotes is from kindergarten cop. Oh, not a tumor? Yeah, not a tumor of, I can't remember what else there is. Well, I mean, that's the best one, not a tumor. Who is your daddy? What does he do? That's not a good one. Who is Shit Daddy? What does he do? All right. Joined in the engineering booth by Jack Insley. Why, what's your last name? White Burns. White Burns. Like, whenever I hear Burns, I think Mr. Burns. You get that a lot? You don't look like him. I don't know why I would think of that Emma can do a great Mr. Burns impression, actually. I wouldn't say the whole impression, more just the kind of shudder. Oh, yeah. I see that. I see that. All right, so why don't we... I've got a caller right out the gate. All right, call her right out the gate. You on the air. Hey, what's up? How are you, Dave? Doing all right. Uh, I got a question about um, back though firm for salami curing. Sure. Um, I'm using, uh, I think FRMC. I started with Paul Scene's book. I think he recommends FRM 52. I don't recall off the top of my head, but basically, as you, I'm
+
+[3:24] sure already know, it calls for like a 12 or so hour incubation period. Uh, right now what I'm doing is I actually have a light bulb on a timer that I close in my oven door with all the salumis that goes on like X amount of minutes per
+
+[3:40] hour. I keep between 80 and 100. But my question is, um, is there any reason I can't, um, put it in a water bath sealed up to do that or does it need to kind of have that drying out as well? Well, it's not just drying out. Is that, uh, Huh. I never had anyone ask me that before. Uh, I mean, you're trying to, you want the
+
+[4:05] pH to drop. Now the lacto, the lactic acid bacteria or anaerobics, so you shouldn't need the oxygen. Maybe the thing is to stop the ox. Maybe the thing is to stop the exterior, uh, bacteria that are not, um, that are aerobic from, uh, growing during the initial period of drying out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I was worried about the moist environment inside the bag somehow being a safety issue, but I don't know
+
+[4:32] how it would be that much different than being inside the dry oven or hanging in
+
+[4:37] a warm box, like a proofing box or something. Well, I mean, remember, it's, it's more. It's, it's, inside the bag, it's not only, is it, uh, you know, not drying it out. Remember, your humidity, at the beginning of this stuff is super high anyway. You know what I'm saying? Like, so at the beginning, you know, uh, if especially if you're doing it like in a, in a converted fridge thing, your humidity is are, I mean, it's been, it's been years since I've looked up the numbers, but your humidity is are in the
+
+[5:05] 90s, uh, when you're doing your initial uh, fermentation. But if you put it in a bag, you've shifted it from the exterior
+
+[5:14] being, uh, an aerobic environment to an anaerobic environment. And I don't know, uh, I mean, you know, you might be putting yourself uh, at risk for various things that way. But, uh, I mean, I can suspend it over the water on Iraq. Oh, that and then cover it with a towel, right? I mean, that would definitely work, but you'd be putting yourself then in a 100% humidity environment. Now, whether or not that's a problem or not. I don't know. I mean, like, look, I'll tell you what. Peter, next week, we're going out to hang out in Madison. Are we going to meet with the curing folks in Madison when we're out there? The guys think so. Yeah, I'll ask him. How about I ask them when I see them? You know, maybe they have some experience. I mean, obviously, I've never heard of me, obviously, look, obviously there are some lactic acid things that take place entirely aerobically underwater. I eat almost every pickle and every sauerkraut. Why not do why not do it in a bag for sausages? I frankly don't, I don't know. What I'm doing is working, but I just figured it's as a matter of convenience and absolutely stable temperature for a very specific amount of time.
+
+[6:25] I just figure, you know, I just got the circular. I'm trying to use it for every thinking thing I can think of as you as you know how that goes. Yeah, I mean, look, if you bag it, you're definitely going to get blow off in that time because, uh, you know, and that's another
+
+[6:37] interesting uh, point is that, uh, but of course, you're putting, you're putting a, a culture in it. So I don't know. I mean, I've had very, very, very unpleasant fermentations take place in vacuum bags, uh, you know, uh, in the mid to in the low 50s Celsius overnight, like hyper
+
+[6:57] unpleasant, uh, smells, uh, in, in, uh, specifically in uh, pork. So, you know, we used to do whole pork shoulders and fat. And I remember because fat, fat, you know, is not, obviously, it's thicker than water, so it doesn't circulate as well. It's also not as good of a conductor, you know, it doesn't have as high a specific heat. So it doesn't you know, put as much energy out. So if you circulate fat, you have to be really super careful that you get really good circulation all the way around. And I had some stagnant points in my fat bath that I had these pork shoulders in. And not only that, the pork shoulders were touching each other in a couple places. And so it was total, not only a dead spot, but you had something that was roughly the size of a Chevy engine that, you know,
+
+[7:44] was trying to get warm. And then, you know, couple that with the fact that even when it was regulating temperature right, it was only a 57, which is just a
+
+[7:51] mere, like, 6 degrees above or 7 degrees above, like, kind of growth for this. And so I had a 10 degree temperature delta over the, over the, you know, the span of this
+
+[8:01] bath, and the next day it walked in, it was like someone had taken like a really bad blue cheese and just, you know, put it into a pressure washer and sprayed the whole room with it.
+
+[8:11] I mean, it stank to high heaven. And while I love the smell of blue cheese with the rare exception of some, of a, yeah, of a Chinese hand that I had
+
+[8:18] once, and the, uh, and I think the really good, like, uh, Colonel Newsom's ham, some blue cheese is not usually a note you're shooting for in meat.
+
+[8:25] And when it, when it, when it commingles with like that slight kind of putrescence that you get out of some fermentations,
+
+[8:31] like unless you're eating Scandinavian fish, and I'm talking to you, Sir Stroming, not to the hot girl, which we all
+
+[8:37] know did not smell that rotten from last week, I think you can, I mean, I know for a fact that unpleasant things happen in that. But if you're just using a starter culture, I don't know, I'd have to just talk to some people who have more than theoretical ideas about it. You know what I mean? Yeah, man, I'd love it if you get to the bottom of that for me. That would be awesome. Sure, no problem. And also, uh, that email about the, uh, turkey, uh, porschettas for me too. So I hope you guys get the chance to address that today. That would be sweet. Did that just come in because Nastasia, like I say, she's not, she's not here, so I didn't get, there's apparently I had 3 questions, but from this past couple of days, but I didn't get it. You want to just tell me the question now? Well, I was already told only one question, but call her. All right. I will tell you anyway. Kenji, you know, Kenji, he had an experiment he did where he did, and I did this with a chicken, not with a turkey, and I'll make it breed. Basically, break it down, grind the breast, pound them out, grind all the darkney into sausage, roll it up into a perfect torpedo, you know, with saran wrap, um, and
+
+[9:40] then, uh, wrap it in the skin. sous vide it, or whatever, and then um, and then deep fry the whole thing, and then serve slices of it, which sounds amazing. I used to do that like all day, every day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So my question is that since I'm gonna be serving it at a different home other than I'm preparing it in, is it gonna suck if I fry it at my house and then try to rewarm
+
+[10:08] it? I mean, I'm not too sure about the, the properties of skin that's been low temp and then fried if it's going to hold a crisp like
+
+[10:15] the, uh, like the Korean wings do. No, no, no, absolutely you will not. Okay, so it's going to suck. No, it's not going to suck. It's just not going to be like that. I mean, 1st of all, but usually when I do it, I couldn't remember exactly what you do. Usually I put the dark meat around the outside because it's the most, then you don't even need to brine the white. Usually, I mean, I do the opposite. Look, when you think about it, right, from a technical standpoint, you want the dark meat to cook to a higher temperature than the white meat, right?
+
+[10:42] I mean, it's just fact, by about 2 degrees. So usually what I'll do is I pound out the dark. I can't remember which way you said it, and then I'll put the white on the inside. Look, I used it as one of my, it's my standard demo. Mills and I used to do like a, what's it called? Turduck in this way. right? The way that you're describing it, just get on the outside. But one of my standard demos was to bone out a whole chicken, put the breast in the center, pound out the dark meat,
+
+[11:05] wrap it in the skin with meat glue, roll it into. And by the way, there's a skill and an art to doing torchons with plastic wrap. And, you know, I learned it from Nils Norin. And I'm not saying that, like, it's a good way to learn, but cooking issues in the low-tent primer cooking issues.com, which we're not updating anymore, but still exists, has a, like a,
+
+[11:24] like a good visual thing on how to wrap a nice, uh, stiff
+
+[11:27] torch, which, which should, uh, by the way, sink. That's how you know you've done it right. If the sucker floats the way up at the top. I'm going to have to check that out because mine are a little sketchy. I keep going back and forth between the freezer just to keep everything where it's supposed to be, you know? Yeah, if you use the, look, Nils Noran will make any, any, anything into it too, but I've seen him make the least tube like things into tubes.
+
+[11:48] And so, you know, I learned his technique and it's really good. And then Erve, also from the French culinary. His magical secret sauce was he would, um, after you put the normally what would be the last wrap of plastic around the
+
+[12:00] torchon, he would do one more thin layer of plastic and get this with a couple of butter knives rolled into
+
+[12:05] it, and the butter knives just sink the torch on straight to the bottom of the circulator, which is a sweet trick, right? Sweet trick. Now, but back to your other thing. Super crispy skin either happens from long frying, right? Oh, you know, like double frying, typically in the Korean thing. usually in the presence of extra starchy crap that can, because it's all the water management. Like crispy skin is all about managing the water, right? So in some of the, in like the, what I think is like the super awesome Korean drum stick technique, because really I could give
+
+[12:38] rats behind about the rest of the rest of it. Like, for me, like that, like, old style, like, whatever you want to call it, Kyoshan style, Banchan style, whatever you want to call it. you know, Peter, what do you like to call it? Which style do you, you don't care. He's what? Speak. Korean fried food. But the one the one that forms like a Morocco with the meat, like that's about like setting the skin at the right temperature, the meat kind of drifts away from the skin, which maintains
+
+[13:02] its thing, and then you have awesome water balance. So, and then they put it with that kind of sugary craft. It also helps it keep kind of crunchy because it's like it's basically like, you know, a candied shell of awesomeness. I think that stuff's fantastic. But in a low temperature environment where you meat glued the skin to it, and you're getting all of your texture off the final fry. It's never going to be that crispy unless you batter it and deep fry it. Now, if you batter it and deep fry it, then you might have some good luck, but you're
+
+[13:30] still, then you're relying on the fact that you have a thick crust to deal with the moisture management problem. Because when you're doing low temp, you're never overcooking the meat and because you're never overcooking the meat, you're always having something moist in contact with the skin and so it never lasts that long. However, like these torchons can be really good, even as a cold prep for a buffet. And the skin looks nice because you seared it once. And I did that once for, you know, my wife had to throw a baby shower for someone and I wasn't allowed to be there because I'm a dude and
+
+[13:55] apparently like some people, like they don't let dudes at their baby shower. I wouldn't complain. Have you ever been to a baby shower? not missing out. All right, good. Well, so anyway, so like she didn't want to do much cooking and I wasn't allowed to be there to finish stuff off. So I did a bunch of cold prep with chicken and turkey, which is fantastic because no one's used to having a cold prep that doesn't suck. Oh, you're right. I agree with that. Yeah, actually, one of the one way I do roast chicken at home is I sort of dry out the chicken over a few different days,
+
+[14:25] for over 3 days, so it gets this like mummy-like appearance. Yeah, actually. And then when it's super dry, it looks almost desiccated. Then I roast it and you get super crispy skin. And that's a good point. Like when I do low temperature on turkey for Thanksgiving, I'll do the low temperature and then I'll just leave it uncovered in the fridge for a while to flash off. And if you pull it out of the torch on when it's hot, you'll get more flash off on the skin and you're liable to get crispier skin
+
+[14:47] anyway, but I don't think you're ever going to make it to Korean fried chicken land with that. Well, no, I was just using that as an example, but I mean, I could always just low temp it and then refrigerate it and then finish it in like a 500 degree
+
+[15:00] oven, like right before. I mean, I'm sure I can get some oven space. They have like 3 ovens at the time. Oh, that's that's always a good call. That's always a good call because then you're doing what I always call low temperature cooking for insurance purposes, meaning the
+
+[15:11] suckers cook through, so you don't need to worry about it. It's going to get kind of mildly warm in the middle so nothing really matters. And then you cook it like you were going to normally cook it in somebody's crappy oven, but you no longer have to sweat it because the
+
+[15:21] inside's already cooked. I mean, that's genius move. That's like, then you, then you don't have to like ask them for anything fancy. You don't have to fry, you don't have to look like you're high maintenance. You just throw it in the oven and it comes out. They're like, why can't I cook like this? because, well, because you're not thinking straight. why you can't cook like this. And then I'll be the hero thing too. Exactly. Hero of Thanksgiving. What I like to hear. Dave, I love the fact that on the one hand, you are no longer a high maintenance guest. On the other hand, you're telling them the host of your host, they're not thinking straight, so... Yeah, well, no, it's only if they ask. It's only if they ask. of oil, everybody out of the kitchen. Yeah, you know what? The thing is also, like, if you're bringing something kind of like that major to the event,
+
+[15:59] like they're seating, like they're seeding anything to you. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're like, oh, make some sides, and then you're going to have like the big old turkey thing. It's like, look, you get to say basically whatever you want, but it still is mega cool to walk in there and not mess with the fact that they are still rushing around to get their mashed
+
+[16:15] potatoes done, walk into the kitchen for about 25 seconds, throw the thing in and come back like 35 minutes later and pull out something delicious. They're like, no, man. You don't even have to talk to him about it. You know what I mean? It's just like, you drop the mic. Did I tell you about that business idea I had? Check this out. I'm never going to do this. So someone do this. Here's what I want to do. Someone do this. I want to make disposable, like really like inexpensive, recyclable, maybe, disposable microphone things with just a simple accelerometer in
+
+[16:42] it. You just keep them in your pocket and they have a little speaker in them, right? And then when you do something, you just you pull it out of your pocket. No one knows it's there. You drop it and it goes, and you walk away from it. And you buy like a pack of 5 of these like drop the mics and then, you know, you just always have one with you for when it's time to drop the mic and walk away. I think I hear your new kickstarter, dude. I know, but someone, you know, look, it's like before, it's like, look, I've just handed someone like
+
+[17:09] a small, like a wheelbarrow full of money, just like send us something. That's all I'm saying. Here's the thing, Dave, in order to properly pitch the idea. You need to have the mic to drop at the end of your pitch. Well, that's what I'm saying. Someone has someone has the time to go make someone who has the time to go make the mic. You know what I'm saying? Like, they should just make it. And I'm just saying, send us something. That's all. You know, I'm a generous dude. I don't have time to, it's not, it's not in my, it's not in
+
+[17:35] my, uh, you know, the range of things that we work on, Booker and Dex. I can't really devote the time to it that it deserves, that it merits. Yeah. anyway, good luck with the turkey. Yo, thanks for your help guys. Alright, cool. I got another caller. He's occasionally waiting. Sweet caller. on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? Doing all right. What's up? Um, I work at a manufacturing company and recently they tasked me with
+
+[17:59] uh, designing like a full service kitchen for all the guys that work on our shop floor.
+
+[18:04] And, um, and the owner of the company, um, I presented my initial layout to him and he thought it was
+
+[18:10] great. I'm actually making use of some sous vide machines and stuff. And uh, but he wants me to uh, reuse some old equipment that we have lying around, which makes complete scent. Um, he's got like 2 or 33 com, uh, 3 compartment sinks that he wants to uh, use for sous vide. Um, I told them just to use polycarbonate bends because I know they're cheap and it's versatile. You can stow them and stuff. I was just curious, how would you like, how would you mount the controller to a 3 comp
+
+[18:39] sink and have like one per compartment? And plus you got like, like water baths that are sharing, you know, walls in the sink and stuff, like transmitting heat between different temperature baths? Um, like, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, his thought is that you can actually drain the sink when you're done with your sous vide. and you're not dumping out a big bin of water and all that. Sure. Well, I mean, like, okay, so, um, Gerard, uh, Philip Preston from Polyscience, built
+
+[19:07] one of, built something very much like that for uh, Gerard Bertillon from cuisine
+
+[19:11] solutions, and and he loves it, right? So, you know, it's obviously feasible. The thing is, you're going to be dealing typically with the sink. You're going to be dealing with a much larger water, um, water situation than you would be with
+
+[19:23] a, with a regular circulator, which tops out at around, so a regular 1000 watt heater
+
+[19:30] in a circulator tops out at around 28 liters worth of water.
+
+[19:34] So you need to measure kind of how much your your bigger sink is and kind of figure from there how much power you're going to need. Secondly, um, it a lot depends on how you're going to mount that heating head. So some people have done it, uh, where they mount, they like mount a standard circulator into a uh, into a sink. And if you're going to do that, what you have to be careful of is that you get full circulation from top to bottom,
+
+[19:59] right? So a lot of people just worry about, you know, is the pump above the water and is the heater above the water, but that
+
+[20:05] is, you know, because think about it this way. The pump typically circulates straight out and cold, colder water tends to sink. So if you have something that's circulating over at the top, you can have stagnation at the bottom and all the cooler water is floating to the
+
+[20:19] bottom, so you're never heating all the way down to the bottom of your tank, especially if you have product
+
+[20:23] in there. So typically, if you're going to have something, if you're going to do something like, let's say, weld, what kind of shop? Do you guys metal plastic? What do you mean? Yeah, we do, we do everything. We need metal, wood, plastic. I mean, like a ton of different things, so. So you're good to go. So what you, what I would do is like have, like weld like a bracket so that you could put the circulator pump in the sink if you need to.
+
+[20:42] This is the simplest way. You can go much more complicated and really internal so you can mount a controller in a circulator and you could like weld a pump into it so that you never have to have something on the outside.
+
+[20:52] It depends how much you want to put into it. But, um, you know, I have seen people weld brackets and then have the circulator fit in that
+
+[20:58] way if there's a problem, you're not ripping a controller that's built in out of the sink. It's less work you have to do. It's a little more not as built in, so it's a little bit bigger, the pain of the butt, but it's also easier to sanitize because you can remove all of the units. You don't have to worry about a flow through pump. Now, back to the sink itself. Usually, in a, depends on what kind of 3 compartments sink that you have, but most of the time it's not like an actual partition, in other words, just a piece of metal, typically, uh, you know, you'll have, is
+
+[21:24] it or is it like 3 uh, things that are sunk into it and you have like a good like half, 3 quarters of an inch uh, lip in between the
+
+[21:31] compartments? Uh, I don't think there's an air gap. I think it's just metal and then it's just a metal divider or something. I don't think it's actually like a like a U shape or anything. Right. Well, then you could always just make, if you want. Uh, like an insulated metal kind of saddle that you can mount the 2 circulators to, that'll slip over the
+
+[21:50] panel, and that'll provide enough insulation to stop too much cross-talk between the 2 and provide an easy way to drop 2 circulators into the sink without modifying the sink.
+
+[21:58] Do you understand what I'm saying? Like a, almost a... And that, you know, that's going to be maybe the easiest way because it doesn't require any kind of actual modification of
+
+[22:07] the sink unit itself. It can stay where it is and like everything else can be done in the shop. What I would recommend is putting some spray insulation on the inside under the other parts of this sink so that you're not losing too much through the bottom of the cabinet. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And then for evaporation, just do some custom lids with a cutout for the controller. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't use those ping pong balls. I think they're a pain in the butt. I've never met anyone who's been like, you know what? I'm really glad I used those ping-pong books. Uh, you know, I think like those, like, uh, I think were sold as a bill of goods to chefs, a sign that was good. I think it's really awesome when you're doing stuff that like is really nasty with really nasty volatiles, like if you're electroplating or
+
+[22:43] something. Fantastic, but for cooking, no. Like, uh, like a, you know, just like a modified, like Lexan, uh, lid. And, you know, depending on how fancy you want to go, uh, you can, you know, like, I've seen people make little, like, hinged portions of
+
+[22:56] it so you could go in and get portion by portion, uh, you know, like, the nice thing about
+
+[23:00] snakes is you can drain some water, and then you can just pitch ice into it and, and, uh, and drop the temp down or you can, uh, you know, what you should typically do
+
+[23:08] is, uh, is drain the water, let it sit for a couple minutes, add uh, regular room temperature, tap water to it, let it sit for a couple of minutes, and then ice it down.
+
+[23:16] You can do all of that under circulation, which makes it a lot more efficient. Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm actually really stoked about it. So that's really good, helpful information. I just found out too that we have like an animal supply of liquid nitrogen. So I'm going to check with our supplier, make sure it's food grid, and then go to town with that too. Yeah, you know, most of it, like most of the people who supply it supply it also to kind of medical places. So the product itself is all good. It's a question of the filling apparatus and the tank they put it into is usually what
+
+[23:47] the what the dealio is, but most of the time you're actually okay because it'd be harder for them to, you know, give you something that's ruined than not. In most cases, not always, always check with them. They don't usually call it food grade, they call it medical grade. Okay, all right, awesome. Thanks so much. Super. Let us know how it works. All right. So I have another call. All right, all right. We'll take the caller, you were on the air. Hi Dave, how's it going? Going all right. Hey, I'm looking to try and make the duck prosciutto
+
+[24:18] and Roman's book. And I think I called for, you know, hanging at somewhere between 50 and 60. Where the heck would you do that in New York apartment? The fridge is going to be way too cold. I feel like the rest of my apartments way too hot. Um, well, can I, can I try it either way or what, what would you suggest? Try it. What do you have access to? What do you have access to, equipment wise? Um, a circulator, um, uh, I think that's kind of the main thing, but yeah, just in terms of the hanging, I guess. Yeah, okay. Well, I don't actually, frankly, know how, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know how sensitive. uh, it's going to be to uh, the temperature, like, so, you know, a lot of times what'll happen when you're
+
+[25:07] doing, when you're hanging something is that, or when you're fermenting or curing or anything, anything you're doing, right? is that a number of things are going on, you're drying the product out. In some cases, there's bacterial fermentation going on, but there's also a lot of enzymatic activity that's going on. And in any of those situations, you're going to be affected by both the heat and the
+
+[25:26] humidity, and it can affect not only the length of time, but also the flavor that's going to come out of it, which is why American country
+
+[25:32] hams. We're talking about a lot of enzymatic activity in the meat, along with the drawing. The higher temperature products are going to have kind of a different, you know, more robust, kind of more American flavor. Now. So point is, you'll probably be able to get it done at a lower temperature, but it might not be the same.
+
+[25:48] Also, you won't, you know, what humidity does he recommend, you know? What humidity does he recommend? I forget. I don't remember, and I'm not sure if it's even noticed, be honest. Yeah. So, I mean, depending on how, you know, I mean, I feel you probably don't have the space to get a wine cooler and use it
+
+[26:09] for, uh, and use it for curing meats, although it works quite well. Like one of those little vino temp kind of things. Yeah, like, you know, one of the ones that, like, I have one that holds, I think, like, I don't know,
+
+[26:21] like 15, 16 bottles, and I use it, like, I use it. I never have that much. Actually, maybe it's 2 cases. don't know. I never have that much wine in my house because I don't collect like expensive wines, but I also use it to store my cheeses when they come in because I don't like to refrigerate my
+
+[26:35] cheeses, and I'll use it for meats that I'm, you know, holding. Um, and you so you could use something like that. You might be able to literally just, uh, like throw some ice in the bottom. How long do you have to do it? How long do you have to keep it? Uh, I think they say about a week or so? Maybe, maybe two. I mean, you could build something. Depends also on how handy you are. Like, you could build, easily build, like, with a penalty A, like a thermal electric, because you don't need to move that much energy out, right? So you could probably pretty easily build something that would hold the right temperature inside of like a
+
+[27:13] cooler or even something you made out of Styro. It's just a question of like where you would keep it. Like, would you, like, hide it in a closet somewhere? But it would be, you know, it wouldn't be that difficult for, it wouldn't be that difficult for you to to do. Uh, I'm trying to think of a way that doesn't shat. you could easily do it if you shaft your fridge but then you can't keep anything else. That's not really a valid solution. I wonder if there is any commercial enterprise that you could sort of tip
+
+[27:40] them, tip money their way to be able to use a little corner of their, like, walk in or something. The problem is, is when you can't put something that they don't. No, the laws are all nutty. Got a tweet in from Elliot Papineau says a dorm fridge with temp humidity control. might be a good way to go. Yeah, if you have the space for it, like, that's a great way to go. Elliot. like, you know, you get one of those little fridges. It's not going to hold that much. But then from Auber instruments.com, you can get really cheap kind of humidity and temperature control stuff and just kind of keep it, bup, bup,
+
+[28:08] bup. you'd be putting it in a cooling phase rather than the warming phase. So you wouldn't have a heater on it. You'd have a cooler on it. Then if you, you know, a really slick, like if you wanted to raise a temperature above ambient later, you could throw a heater into it as well, but like, yeah, that would, that, I mean, that would clearly work if you have the space for it. Like the thing is dedicating a closet to it. You know, it's not going to be going on that often. So you might be able to get away with it in a closet. The closet's not going to get too hot. I mean, I know that for a fact with the wine cooler because I've kept a wine cooler in a closet for, you know, over a decade and it worked
+
+[28:38] fine. Yeah, I mean, I think I think the question just comes down to how much am I going to be doing this? Am I going to get really into it where there's something that I'm going to, you know, constantly be doing and then it's like,
+
+[28:50] 0 yeah, just buy the fridge. That's no problem. But yeah, I mean, that's a good point that you can store cheeses and other stuff in it to, um, that might kind of make it worth the, the space. Also, falls coming on. So what I would do is do it like fairly close to a place. Maybe you can crack a win. If you're anything like most people in New York apartments, it gets hot as heck because they have those radiators and the radiators can't be
+
+[29:10] adjusted and so like you have to open your windows in the middle of the winter. Are you like that? That's exactly the problem. Yeah. So the good news about that is you can find a place in your place that's cold enough by putting it close enough to a window, like, you know, in a box with some screen over it, really cheaply, and figure out kind of whether you like it or not, or whether this is something you're going to do, and then before it gets like really hot again, then you can invest in a, in a, you know, in a more
+
+[29:37] permanent like dorm fridge rig. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so I think that's a good idea. Yeah, always good to test the waters, but or go the other way. The other way, the other way, and I've done this many times, is just jump right the heck in, spend all the cash, and you're like, well, I got to do it
+
+[29:51] now, because I devoted all this time and energy to it. I got to do it now. That's how I learned to play bass guitar. Like, you know. You know what I mean? I done spent the money. Of course, that was back when I couldn't afford to like lose that kind of money. So it was like, you know, you know, it's like. Yeah, that would be a sufficient gamble kind of thing. Yeah, you have to make a big enough investment in time and or and or money that it's it's a personal failure and embarrassment if you don't actually see it through, you know? So Dave's advice is to take a high interest loan or pawn off some very valuable,
+
+[30:22] you know, family duels and then take it up so that the stakes are so high that you must go through with it. Well, I mean, that's actually, interestingly, that Peter interpreted my advice that
+
+[30:33] way because that's exactly what he did with the Museum of Food and Drink, basically, is he took an extremely, like, huge gamble and, like, quit a fine lawyering job with, you know, kind of good benefits and salary to start the museum of food and drink with absolutely no
+
+[30:49] guarantees, which I forever appreciate. So he did exact, he actually did take my advice that way, and here's here's where he is today, right? True? Thanks so much. I appreciate it. All right, thank you. All right. Well, with that, before we go to break, why don't we discuss why Peter and Emma are here. So, Emma, you want to talk? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think given all the discussions of sausages and turkeys and
+
+[31:12] turduckens, this is actually a great segue to quickly plug our upcoming event this Thursday here in New York. MoFad Round Table, the future of meat. We're bringing together 4 panelists who represent a wide variety of views on meat eating and whether we should eat meat, how we should produce meat in the future. We've got a Peter singer. Or whether we should produce meat in the future. That too. We've got Peter Singer, the eminent philosopher and author of animal liberation, among many other publications. Another philosopher named Mark Budolfson, who is currently working on a volume on food
+
+[31:44] ethics, to be published by Oxford University Press, Isha Datar, who runs a nonprofit called New Harvest. They advocate for cultured meat and various varieties of so-called in vitro meat and think about sort of the possibilities of meat futures. And then finally, Heritage's own Patrick Martins, who recently published the Carnivores
+
+[32:05] Manifesto and also runs Heritage Foods USA, which is a purveyor of ethically and sustainably raised meats.
+
+[32:12] And don't forget there's some schmuck muttering the whole thing. Oh, yeah, this guy who's sitting right next to me, Dave will be there as well. So if you are in New York or the area, we would love it if you could come, tickets are at
+
+[32:22] meet.mofad.org. And again, it's this Thursday, the 16th. Meet like get together and meet like the stuff. Meet like the... Web Jackson. Yeah. M-E-A-T, that move at.org. Yeah, unfortunately, Peter is going to do the introduction, so I can't go, Peter, Peter,
+
+[32:41] Peter, singer. vegetarian philosopher, right? Because he's like, he's never probably introduced that way to his life. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's your job, man. Yeah. But Peter Singer. interesting. Yeah, he, against eating meat on the grounds that if you don't believe in
+
+[33:03] racism, then you also shouldn't believe in eating meat. I mean, it boils down to like, you can't distinguish between animal suffering. In other words, suffering is the thing. You can't distinguish between suffering of animals and of people in terms of value
+
+[33:20] judgments, and then says, well, back in the day, we used to make differences between different groups of
+
+[33:25] people, and we don't do that anymore. So blah, blah, blah. My being relatively, it's kind of a utilitarian plus bludgeoning you with your own sensibilities kind of argument about not eating meat, which is accurate or
+
+[33:36] inaccurate. I would say so. Interestingly, he doesn't argue that the suffering that animals and humans
+
+[33:42] experience doesn't necessarily the same, but he does argue for equal consideration of suffering for living beings.
+
+[33:49] So it's not that the pain that a human might experience, who knows that there's a future to be
+
+[33:55] lived, upon the knowledge that he or she might be killed is the same as the pain that an animal might experience, because perhaps the level of sentience differs there. But they're still, he argues, a fundamental interest in life that all living things share. Yeah, sure. And it, yeah, definitely not in not equating the two, right? The animal suffering and the human suffering, but denying us as
+
+[34:19] people the right to draw lines of distinction and treatment on when we recognize suffering
+
+[34:26] as occurring, right? And then, but, you know, then he's interesting. He's like, you know, and they're like clearly probably not a food dude. Just saying this because like in a couple of the references in the book. He, like, especially for something as, you know, not important as eating the animal, you can
+
+[34:41] kill it. You know what I mean? Like, he almost seems in some places. been years since I've read it, but, you know, some places are like, we're not talking like, you know, leather shoes, I can see even more than eating it.
+
+[34:50] I don't know what the guy sounds like. He probably doesn't sound like that. He's Australian, for one thing. Oh, jeez. I can't do an Australian accent. Well, I just do it the same way I do New York. anyway, it doesn't matter. But it should be an interesting Patrick on the panel. This will be great. Oh my god. Patrick's Patrick's going to be like, meat's so delicious. Like, so he's going to say the whole time. That's your Patrick and impression? No, Peter does the Patrick impression. Peter, get your Patrick. Peter, do your Patrick impression. Well, no, he's just saying, like, if you go over to the state check, You see the big line of people waiting for the hamburgers. You're not going to tell them to stop eating meat. It's not possible. That's pretty good. It wasn't bad. Yeah, Peter's got that. Let's take a break so we can squeeze in some more questions. All right. Well, come right back with more cooking issues.
+
+[35:56] White Oak Pastors is the only farm in the United States. It has its own USDA inspected Red Meat Abattoir,
+
+[36:14] Or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry Abattoir, a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high
+
+[36:23] quality, meat, and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145 years. A full circle return to sustainable land, stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. More information, please visit our website, whiteoakpastures.com. A scale of one to 10, Dave. How much do you love that commercial? 10. 10. And I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that dude not to use his abattoir. You know what I'm saying? I like to see that happen. I'd like to see Peter Singer come and tell that guy not to not to do his beef and poultry. Well, we're hoping some farmers will come to the debate, so. That guy's voice. I would buy, like, I told you, the only thing I don't like about that is why I only up to Princeton. What's what are we, dirt? What are we, dirt? Anyways. All right, we have a caller, caller. you on the air. Yeah, Dave, 2 or 3 weeks ago, you very briefly mentioned your recipe for
+
+[37:21] doing combo dashi in a circulator. Could you give me the actual recipe? Ooh, yeah. I mean, look, I would look at the, um, the key thing with combo, a couple of key things with combo. One is obviously the variety you get, because they are very, like, extremely widely in terms of not just the amount of umami they deliver, but the flavor they
+
+[37:41] deliver. Second thing is, um, the 2nd thing, I mean, obviously how it's how it's cut up, I did studies on that as well, but, uh, temperature and time. So, you have a circulator? Okay, so the best, I mean, the best results I got were in the
+
+[37:58] bag circulated. Although you could probably do it without the bag circulated. got to make sure that you don't get little pieces sucked up into the circulator. It was it was either 60 or 70 C. I'd have to go back and look at my, uh, at my numbers, but it was 60 or 70
+
+[38:13] C, I think, for, like in the area of an hour. I did longer, I did shorter, I did higher, I did lower, but to go back on cooking issues and just search for combo. Those were the numbers I got that, uh, and like it wasn't like by a little bit. It was by a lot. And we went through also all the different varieties that we could source here in New York, but my memory is too thin to give you the
+
+[38:36] exact, the exact stuff on it, but it was, we have I have like 2 or 3 posts on Kambudashi, all with numbers and photos so you can kind of see how it looks. And then obviously afterwards, I can... Can you use website you're talking about? Yeah, I'm cooking it. It's still up there. Like I say, we haven't like, it's all archives, so it's, you know, it's not a living document anymore, but it's still there.
+
+[38:58] if it's not there, I can go research it. Just give us, give me a tweet back and I'll go figure out the exact magic numbers again. All right. And then I think you just, so it depends on my 2nd question. What's, uh, what's your favorite, favorite place in the store is wildly expensive Asian ingredients and have some idea of getting what you're paying for? Ah, well, I mean, for for Japanese stuff, for food, I mean, I used to source, well, I was getting that stuff directly from kind of
+
+[39:25] true worlds, who was my seafood supplier. So now, you know, I don't have any more like a super fantastic Japanese source. I guess, you know, for foods. I tend to go to the same markets that we all kind of go to here in
+
+[39:41] New York. But, um, I don't know, you mean online or in in the city. I know that if you go out to, where do you go for stuff? Emma lived in Japan for how long? A couple of years. Yeah, so where you go? I've gone to Mitsua in New Jersey once or twice. And I mean, selection is great there. It feels very much like a grocery store in Japan. But often I don't make it out there. So I usually just go to sunrise in the East Village. Yeah, but you know, again, like what's weird about that. If you don't speak, like, they don't necessarily think that you really care. And so they're not really gonna like, like worry about whether you get the best, this or that. Like, I've never purchased a good, uh, uh, solid, you know, katsobushi here ever. You know what I mean? I've gotten some decent misos. I've gotten, I've never gotten a nato that I thought was worth spit here in, uh,
+
+[40:29] in, in New York as opposed to the one I had went over over in Tokyo. You have any good web sources, though? No, I actually don't really buy Japanese food online. I can look into it. I'm sure those... Now when you look into it, and then tweet, tweet, what you should do is follow also at MoFad, which is our Twitter account for the museum, and Emma will tweet out for you a good source
+
+[40:46] for that stuff. or we'll find someone who knows and we'll tweet it out, but please follow at Mofat so that you can see Emma's response, right? Yes, please. Yeah. All right. So we'll look into it for you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, so, uh, Peter, uh, Emma, why don't you plug what you came to plug before we get ripped off the Oh by the way, before you do, we did a catch up show last week on a Friday and it's now up, right, Jack? Sorry, yes, it is. And we might have to do another catch-up show. We might need another ketchup fill, which is fine. You know what, though? I would prefer to do ketchup shows on the questions that are written in and like always always handle
+
+[41:20] a live color because I like having live colors. Yeah, I would prefer to do a ketchup show with a ketchup sponsor. That's just me What, did you do we have a ketchup sponsor? We don't yet. Nothing has come through. Open call. You know, I just did a side by side of Hunts versus Heinz yesterday. Oh yeah? Yeah. What was the takeaway? Well, the Hunt's clearly the texture not as good as the Heintz. Have you had Sir Kensington's? with one of the founders of that company. So have you? Yes. How was it? Yeah, it's good. You know, I mean, I have to admit, I think, you know. Does he wear a monocle? Yes. Wait, guys, I just, I have to do this real quick. All right. You the lad. are we listening to? Yeah, it's a radio network, sir. Very good. I'm Sir Kensington and you're listening to the Heritage Radio Network. That's Total Monaco Man. That's Total Monocle right there. That's him, he was here. And did he wear a monocle? Of course. Sweet. I kind of like I kind of like it. Although it seems like, did you know Jack? Because I know these 2 know it, that in Spanish, the word for Worcestershire sauce is English sauce, what? Yeah, really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Inglesi. Yeah. I was like, what the hell is saucing glacier? They're like, oh, Worcestershire sauce. Well, and in front, the French sauce, so Español is just called that because there's a tomato in it, but there's some tomato in it. Like tomatoes come from Spain? For them, apparently at the time, yeah. But, you know, the thing is, uh, that, like, does Kensington's have, like,
+
+[42:48] a, a, a dose of Worcestershire-like flavors or anchovy in it? I can't remember. Because, you know, the characteristic note in Witcher sauce is anchovy. Yeah. Which is just delicious. It is amazing. You know what I do not like? Fake wish. Like, why? Like, the Worcestershire, or whatever they want to
+
+[43:05] call, the fake one that doesn't have the anchovy in it, like, has some of the notes of Worcestershire sauce, but ain't real deal homie stuff. You know what I'm saying? Isn't there like a tamarind, a strong tamarind note in Worcester too? I think so. Look, it's a really interestingly complex condiment to be a mainstay in the American
+
+[43:21] pantry, right? But yeah, but people give us a bad rap. You ever have the the gentleman's relish, the pepper. It's basically a compound butter of anchovies, black pepper, and butter. That's an English thing. People give the English a bad rap, but they look, they love their chutneys. I'm talking prior to like this whole like kind of, you know, revitalization of British food over the past, you know, 15, 20 years. I'm talking to like old school. Like even with all the crappy stuff. They still had the, the, the chutneys, the the sauces, the relishes. I mean, you know. Great sauces put on their crappy food. Wow. Well, that's what you were saying. No, that's what you're saying. I'm interpreting. No, see, this is the same thing that caused you to quit your job. Like, you take, like, 3 steps beyond like what I'm actually saying. So why don't you talk before they kick us off the air, which is going to be very soon. Why don't you tell us, like, what... Yeah, so for any listeners that are in the Midwest, I'm a Midwesterner myself, we're going to Madison, Wisconsin next week, and we've got we're doing a fundraiser for
+
+[44:16] MoFad out in Madison with 2 James Beard award-winning chefs and the underground food collective, and that's October 23rd. Dave will be making cocktails doing a demo. So if y'all are anywhere near Madison, Wisconsin. You should definitely get tickets. You can get them at Mofad fundraiser.eventbright.com. And you can also go on our Facebook. We put a post-up on that. So at the Mofad Facebook page. All right. And speaking of Wisconsin and brats, I'm going to do one quick one on the way out, and then we're going to have to catch the rest of the ones that I still owe you guys answers
+
+[44:47] on and either a catch-up, you probably will have to do a catch-up show, but this one goes out to the Hashi food truck at cooking issues. Remember an issue where you covered brats or sausages in an emersion circulator with beer? Can you share the tips again? Yes. So, uh, what you do is, uh, you can do it in beer, but remember, if you're going to do it in beer, the 1st couple of ones you're going to come out aren't going to taste as
+
+[45:06] brotty as the rest would, because you have to get the whole thing tasting like brats.
+
+[45:10] You know what I'm saying? So you want like maximum brat and minimum beer at least at the beginning. So you can get... I don't know if you know this. And at Clefts Road, and also about New York hot dog carts. I've drunk the hot dog water from a New York hot dog cart before, and the sucker tastes more like a hot dog than a hot dog does. And I'm pretty sure they reuse the water day and day out and don't worry, it's hot. It's not bad. It's kind of like, you know, they like the secret, uh, you know, Chinese stocks that are made for 100s of years because the flavor is like, you know, they keep on like reinforcing it with fresh
+
+[45:36] meat. I think that's one of the keys. And so, uh, you're not leaching any flavor out. So you have it in the circulator at like 140, right? So now you're not overcooking the stuff in the brats, you have it going there 140, pull it out, and put it over a flaming hot grill to put the crust over it, and it's never going to be
+
+[45:52] overcooked, delicious, and beer brats, and forever, and awesome. really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? We made it for you once at a museum event. Yeah. Yeah. That was some tasty stuff. Right. And we also had a question in. that I know I owe you. Don't worry, I know I owe you. I got to talk about fermentation in the bag, and maybe we'll talk about that more when we get more information on meat fermentation in the bag, which I've never done.
+
+[46:13] Next time on cooking issues. Thanks to listening to this program on heritageradio and network.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website, orders podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Raketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
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+[0:06] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is, with Raketin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[0:51] Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's R A-K-U-T-E-N. Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the
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+[1:03] quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
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+[1:09] For more information, visit whole foodsmarket.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live in Roberta's Pizzeria on Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick,
+
+[1:38] Brrr, Hookland, joined as usual, witness, Tasha, the Hammer Lopez. And we got Jack over there, the engineer booth, do we not? Yeah we do. Is Wyatt there? I thought I was a Wy. Why it's here. Good Wide, how you doing? How you guys doing? We're good. Yeah. So I have something for you, Anastasia. Wait, is this mine? Yeah. I signed it. on the blue page. I'm handing her, for those of you that can't see because this is the radio. Oh, that's so nice. I'm handing her her personal copy of Liquid Intelligence, the new book, which is not officially out, but we'll be out soon. We're going to do a signing tomorrow at or the after tomorrow in Madison, because we're going to Madison, Wisconsin. You want to talk about what we're doing over there? Uh, fundraiser for MoFad, and you're doing a lecture on food science. Doing electron food science. And we have another book signing at Star Chefs, which is next week. Can you believe it? Can you believe it? No, Starsh is here. She's messing with somebody else. You have to pay no attention to statia. Nostasia loves like the so inside joke. It's not funny for anyone else. It's not, but you don't have to comment on it. just for you. Yeah, oh, just for me. All right, so by the way, I don't know whether you guys know this, but I'm sure you do. Like, here at the radio show, Nastasia is the hammer, right? But her official, like, job description is she keeps the wheels on the bus at Booker and Dax. Now I was thinking about this, right? How is, because to me, that always implied that you were the bus driver, right? So then I was like, well, how is it? Well, well, yeah, but I just assumed you were also driving it, which I was always wondering, like, how is it that you end up underneath the bus so often? And I think it's because the bus, you know, is so rickety, the wheels are always falling off the dang
+
+[3:16] bus and you have to go underneath. You're under fixing it and then as soon as you get the wheel on. Yeah, the jackflies out. Yeah, or they're just like, oh, wheel seems to be working out, boom, boom, boom. Oh, what was that? I'm sure it's fine. Sure, it's fine. Right? Yeah. And I just thought about that. Like, you know, on the way over. I was like, that's how that's how this stuff happens. Yeah. All right, so listen, I'm going to tackle some of the questions from last week, and then we'll get some of the questions from this week. We didn't do liquid smoke, did we? I wasn't here earlier, love. I don't think we did liquid smoke. I don't think so either. Brian wrote in about liquid smoke. Hey, y'all, happy October, because he said happy October. I had to get it now before it's not October anymore. You know what I mean? Oh, by the way, next week, the book signing is during the radio show. So we either have to like, we either have to do a live from Star Chefs and then like, you know, pipe it in, like beforehand, maybe, or postpone. It up to you. We could probably get in there and do Starshifts if you want to do it from Starshift. Man, too bad we couldn't do the book signing here. at the radio show. You could, like, answer questions and sign books at the same time. Yeah, I mean, Star Chefs is like, it's with kitchen arts and letters, which, as everybody who's been there knows is like the most awesome food bookstore like ever. And every year they have a booth at Star Chefs. And so they do book signings there. So I'm going to do in there, but have you guys ever gone to Star Chefs? I've actually never been. No, but I mean, has the radio show been there? I mean, not our radio show, but... The radio hosts have yeah. Yeah, next week. It's the international chess conference, which is unfortunate that it's the same as ICC, which is international culinary
+
+[4:51] center. Always. Always some problem. Oh, it's some problem. Always got to be some problem. Brian writes. Thanks for all your tips on helping me prevent another allergic reaction. You sure we didn't do this? Anyway, shout out to Michael Nakkin for underscoring the severity of allergies. So far, so good for me. I'm keeping my flower in the freezer. But I have another question. I did this. Yeah, you did the good catch. About liquid smoke? Yep. Well, for those of you that didn't listen to last. give you the 52nd redux on liquid smoke. Liquid smoke is an actual honest to God product. It's been around a long time. There's a lot of places you can look up on how to make your own liquid smoke. The problem with liquid smoke that you buy in the store is most of it is just like kind of monotonic and not that good, but it is derived from real
+
+[5:35] smoke and they most of the time remove a lot of the carcinogenic stuff.
+
+[5:40] So, uh, are you sure? I'm right, because I remember that intro. Yeah, we think it's from like 3 weeks ago. Really? Yeah. Wow. Well, did I talk about, uh, Salady Schwoz? Yeah. But I discussed with my ideal salad, Schwaz? You know, the weird thing is, is like, so style. Do you like Saudi Schwadz? I want to do it. So when you think about it, like what do you think of most? What's the 1st thing you think of when you think of tuna, right? So, and if you go to the, you know, Wikipedia, which, you know, have they got their money yet? Are you allowed to go with them without them pitching money or is it still always like, give us money, give us money? think that's over. Okay. So if you go to the Wikipedia. It says that a salad dishoise is composed of tomatoes, tuna, hard-boiled eggs, nicheoise, duh, and anchovies, dressed with a vinaigrette, is served variously on a plate, platter, and a bowl with or without a bed of
+
+[6:31] lettuce. The tuna may be cooked or canned. And then a bunch of other stuff. salad may include raw red peppers. No. No, it may not. Raw red peppers? No. First of all, the beans in there? Where the beans? needs beans. Anyway, may include shallots and artichoke cards. But according to many sources, excludes cooked vegetables except for green beans and potatoes, which I think have to be there. The boiled potatoes and the green beans have to be there if it's not, like, what the hell? Like, 1st of all, you need the potato to go with the anchovy and the tuna and the horrible. anyway, whatever. It needs the potato and the green beans, all that other stuff, artichoke cards. Listen, I love artichoke cards, but don't be putting that artichoke cards in the initial sauce. But anyway, I figured, what the hell do I know? I just know what I like, right? I don't know, like, you know, like, it's an actual thing that you can go kind of try to figure out what it is.
+
+[7:18] So I went to Escoffier, right? Scoffier. and then, uh, Escoffier, interesting. I have all these pictures in my phone. I can get to him. I just literally like on the way over here took pictures of the recipes. So let's see what uh, what my man uh, Escoffier wrote. Now, Escoffier says, that it is equal quantities of string beans, potato dice, and something with
+
+[7:40] tomatoes. decorate. I can't see because it got cut off because I'm a jerk. Uh, others, uh, and quartered tomatoes, which and whatever. Decorate with capers, small pitted olives, small pitted dolls. What the hell kind of translation is small pitted olives. I mean, like we're such brutes that we can't like get the actual kind of olive. Like, 1st of all, like, this was translated in the 70s, I think. This is a really old copy I have. So that, like, you know, whatever. Like, you know, we were a different country back in the 70s. But if you, 1st of all, pitted olives. Have you ever had pitted olives in Anishwas? Have you ever had someone pit out the Neeshwazalas for you? Me neither. Do people, how do you, I wouldn't want to go... I feel that you would mutilate a new Schwaz olive by pitting it, right? Anyway, Pitt at all. 1st of all, back in the 70s, like you'd be like, we got the 2 kinds of olives. We got the green ones with the pimento and we got the black ones. Which one? If once you're going to say small. you might as well just call out the olive because back then it was the same amount of impossible. Same impossible anyway. Uh, and anchovy filets uh, seasoned with oil and vinegar. What's that recipe missing? Uh, fish? Tuna. There's no tuna in that, right? Also, I don't see the, was it hard-boiled egg in there? Don't see the hard boiled egg. Right? So I was like, 1st of all, I was like, this made me doubt everything else in this book. I was like, this book is a load of malarkey. Like you need, we need to throw this book away. I need to burn it and go buy a new copy of the scoffier, right? So then where did I go next? I went to Pella Pratt, which is one of my favorite old school books. And in Pella Pratt, you got string beans, potatoes, hard-boiled eggs, anchovy filets, green, pitted olives, green. I don't consider niche wise green, do you? I consider them like kind of grayish. kind of grayish, brownish. maybe a greenish grayish brownish. And vinaigrette dressing, right? Peel the potatoes cooked in their jackets, cut them into small dice. Okay, whatever. they're not doing the nice little footballs Do you like the footballs? Boiled footballs. you like the football shape? Like, I think at the FCI, they used to do the football shape. You know, they used to turn the potatoes. anyway, cut the beans in squares. I don't really know what that means. Cut a bean in a square. anyway. Cook them in salted boiling water, cool and drain, mixed vegetables, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? No freaking. Oh, wait. And then it said, if like, if liked, neat chunks of tunny fish preserved in oil.
+
+[10:04] So that's like, like that's like putting it as like a, what's it called? as, you know, a, uh, you know, maybe you can have it. maybe you can't. I then looked in Herring's dictionary of classical modern cookery, another old school one that has a lot of French stuff, and there as well, although they call it
+
+[10:18] nice salad. Like, why would you translate the town, the whatever? Um, that's like, that's like, uh, like Milanese translating it as Milan. Who the hell would do that? Uh, Anyway, it's like, uh, French beans, quarters of peeled tomatoes and fancy fancy shaped potatoes. So they have the turned potatoes, by the way. That's what fancy shaped potatoes means. You know what I'm talking about the footballs? No. I like football. You do like football. You like football? Well, you know, if you actually went through the SCI. Like you spend the 1st week just turning potatoes into like little footballs and they make you go home and
+
+[10:53] like like convert like £50 of potatoes into little footballs. I hope they still do that because that was the whole point of going to the schools making the footballs. Garnish with anchovy filets, olives, capers, and original French dressing, whatever the hell that means, right? That's some sort of OG French dressing, no tuna. And finally, I went to the source, uh, uh, LaRusse
+
+[11:11] Gastronameek, and, uh, there... They also have no freaking tuna, but they say sprinkle with chopped
+
+[11:20] Shervil and tarragon, which sounds nice. I like Sherville and tarragon together. So there you have it. Like all these old school stuff from the 60s, like some of it closely related to the fresh deck coming
+
+[11:28] out, with tuna at most, an optional thing. So I wonder at what point niche was became a tuna heavy thing. Or you prefer fresh tuna, like seared, or do you prefer the canned tuna? Either. I think I like the canned with hard boiled eggs. I think with hard boiled eggs, I like the can. Yeah, that's true with eggs, canned. And do you go for that fancy, the flot stuff, the Italian stuff? Yeah, that stuff's good. Do you spend the extra money on like Ventresca or do you not, not that kind of a spending time? You don't know where I'd get it. But, you know, like the one. Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff. But anyway, I also like it with fresh tuna, but apparently they're both bastardizations. Strange, huh? Weird, weird. Okay. Enough about niche wise. Let's see what else. Okay, Christopher Bass. Christoph wrote in. his name's not Bass, about Bass. And I don't think we talked about this. We've been cooking black bass, fresh from the lake for 2 hours at 128 Fahrenheit, which by the way, for you, Celsius folks out there. is 53.333. It turns out more tender, delicious. It turns out tender, delicious, and cooked to perfection. I did not realize that some fish benefit from longer cook times. Usually fish doesn't hold up well to long cook times, even at lower temperatures, I would add, especially at lower temperatures. Here are my questions. I'm not sure what to call this effect that happens there, tenerization or is it just not getting mushy for some reason. I mean, I think that's it. The problem is when you're cooking fish, Here's the thing that like, you know, when you cook meats, you're looking to make them more tender. Fish starts out tender and what you're looking to do is have it not go mushy and not go dry,
+
+[13:02] right? So fish, there's kind of 2 things that can happen to it. It can stay moist, but turn mushy. That stinks, or it can go dry. I hate dry fish. Stas. What do you think about like overcooked swordfish? Look, I know you're not supposed to, whatever. You're not supposed to have any more back when I was a kid, everything was swordfish steak, this swordfish steak, that. We didn't care if like, you know, giant worms came out. I didn't we didn't give a rat's ass. Everyone, rats patoot, rather. We didn't care. Everyone had this swordfish, but, you know, you would douse that sucker in oil and cook the hell out of it. Just cook the hell out of it. Like sometimes like in a freaking oven. Just cook the hell. Remember how they used to have all these recipes for fish that you would cook in an oven? just throw the fish in a freaking oven, uh, and, and, just like stringy, blah, like, like, hard, core, overcooked swordfish, so many memories.
+
+[13:52] And then and then they're like, well, if we're going to overcook it, why not overcook shark? Remember when everyone used to eat shark? Like back in like the 80s, like shark steaks, like overcooked freaking shark steaks. They were good because you salted the hell out of them. But they were otherwise, do you remember the, you were too young, but do you remember the 1980s pork chop? The thin, overcooked dry pork shop? My mom did those. At least call like the new white meat, right? Yeah, it was a new, it was a new white meat. The new crap meat. Like, everyone, like, always, like, overcooked swordfish over, whatever. I don't know how I got out of this. But so the point is, is that you're always in this race. When you're doing low temperature, you don't have to overcook it so that it gets dry, but the problem is it can get mushy and it can also get squeaky. So like overcooked swordfish is not only dry. I don't know what I'm talking about swordfish. I haven't even had a swordfish in like years. You're not supposed to eat anymore, right? I don't know. didn't know that. I know, Jack, is that on the do not eat list? I mean, I'll go check Monterey Bay and see what they say. I mean, I haven't eaten it in years, so I don't worry about it. I do avoid tuna when I'm out. I do avoid the bluefin, though I love it. Does everyone avoid the bluefin now when they go out? When you eat sushi, do you avoid a bluefin? Uh, do I have it, no? I mean, if someone orders it and it shows up, like I'll eat it, but I would never order it, even though I love it. Why can't you, shouldn't you eat it? Because it's going to be extinct. I mean, they're ruining. ruined. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know. But the whole, like, all the fish are going to get the Japanese... What?
+
+[15:20] The Kindai people? No, the radiation anyway. So, you know. Stas just saying, might as well eat it now because I think that's going a little bit overboard. I mean, like hopefully we'll get some sort of Godzilla tuna that will, you know, come on land and eat us
+
+[15:35] all, breathe fire, some sort of giant Godzilla tuna. It's kind of like weird. I hadn't thought about it, that the monster films like are predicated on like this excess radiation. like after. Yeah, well, it's all like these things come out of Japan, you know, after, you know, we drop the atomic bomb and
+
+[15:52] like kind of obsessed with radiation. Godzilla is a product of radiation. And so, you know, now they have actual other kind of sources of radiation over there. I wonder whether it's going to spur some sort of, you know, gamara of the sea. Swordfish is okay, by the way, unless you're getting long line caught imported swordfish. You don't want that. Yeah, or unless you overcook it, you definitely don't want to Definitely don't want that. Definitely, definitely don't want that. Anyway, so back to Christoph and his best. This is a lakefish. I don't even know what the heck we're talking about all these. Anyway. So, or is it just not getting mushy for some reason? So a lot, like, look, uh, I don't have a lot of experience
+
+[16:27] with uh, with uh, freshwater fish uh, sous vide, uh, with the exception of trout, uh, but, you know,
+
+[16:34] I know that certain fish get really crappy when they're cooked for a long time and certain don't.
+
+[16:40] And, uh, you know, you referenced, um, I think you referenced the blog
+
+[16:43] posts where I did the uh, stripers and stripers can stand for a long time. I think maybe because they're relatively firm, so they don't go mushy on you. Like they, they are relatively firm fish, which is why I think when they're overcooked, they're
+
+[16:55] like even stripers when they're, do you like, you like stripers, right, Stuff? But when they're overcooked, they're a little hard, right? That's why I think like it can stand up to it. It's got a little more structure to it because it's a strong freaking fish. You know what I mean? Uh, anyway, so, and I tried to look up for you because there's 2 things that go wrong. One, there's connective tissue that gets broken down over cooking, right? And two, there are enzymes in fish that break down the flesh, which is why some
+
+[17:21] things like shellfish, for instance, go super mushy when you cook a low temperature. So those are the 2 things that you're, uh, that you're looking at, but I wasn't able to find any actual, um,
+
+[17:31] any listing of fish. What you're looking for is, uh, the 2 proteases that are in it are,
+
+[17:38] uh, cat, uh, conceptions, which I can't pronouncing cow paint. I cannot pronounce it, but like, these are what's breaking down, the fish, and I couldn't find any listing of which ones have more enzymes in them and which ones don't. I think McGee might have just a ready reference of which ones get mushier in on food and cooking. I should have looked there, but stupidly, I did not. Anyway, um, So that's, uh, so that's, that's it. What do you think? Anything, right? It hard to know. You just have to know. So if you know that the black bass is can take a long time without going mushy, then that's good to know.
+
+[18:10] Just watch out for squeakiness. Man, I hate squeakiness. Um, Okay, now, uh, also, by the way, I was while I was researching that question, I found an interesting article that you guys might be interested in, um, called, see if I was stupid enough to, I was too stupid to write it down, but it's, uh, there's a table I found called slaughter conditions on the glycogen concentration, 3
+
+[18:35] minutes, uh, postmortem and chicken breast muscle, which is a fantastic looking article because they anesthet-
+
+[18:41] they did anesthetizing of the chicken, stunning of chicken, a struggling chicken, and it's adapted for an article I wasn't able to find by a person named
+
+[18:48] Defremrie in 1966. But it's the only reference I have to anesthetized slaughtering practices in a chicken. So if anyone can find that article is sent to me, I'd be super happy. I think I found that in uh, and maybe I found that in the biochemistry of foods, which is uh, the Shahid's 2013 version. Anyway, if you didn't explain Justina, it was just like, eh, I came with up with the name. Stas is reading the book Liquid Intelligence. Here's why. So the technique is called Hustino. where we blend. Uh, you know, we blend a product like most often like a fruit or sometimes a dried fruit, sometimes a vegetable, Nick Bennett does mushrooms, into a liquor with Pectinex,
+
+[19:23] ultra SPL. We spin it in a centrifusion. It goes clear again, and you get these like awesome liquor. So we call them Hustino. And I originally in the book wrote the whole story about how fabulous. And we were running around screaming Justino at the top of our lungs, which is actually just a bastardization of a chef we knew named Justin.
+
+[19:39] And so we just used to walk around the kitchen going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
+
+[19:44] oh, like this, like running around, this reporter calls and asks for, because we're stupid. And this reporter comes and says, what's the name of this drink? This banana drink that you did, you know, because we need to write about it. And we were like, banana, banana, banana. Ostino. Stino. And then like they printed it. And then that was it. It was called Justino, and it was too late to go back. But then when I wrote this story, Jen's like, this is the dumbest freaking story in the world. This is so freaking stupid. Like, you can't put this in the book because A, it, like, there's no context to it. Like the rest of the book isn't about you running around like an idiot. It's about you running around like trying to figure out how to make things better. And it's just, it's coming out of, out of nowhere. And so it's better just to be like, called Justino. I don't know why. I don't know why it's called Ustino. See? All right? Fair. guess. Fair. Uh, okay. Uh, we already did the uh, do we did the Hashi food truck one, right? With the sausage? Did we do it briefly last week? Hashi Food Truck Rowanas? Remember an issue where you covered brats or sausages, immersion with beer? Can you share tips again? We did that one, right? I wasn't here last week, Jack. I think we did that. You keep saying you're not here this week. How am I supposed to remember that? How am I supposed to remember that from 12nd to the next? Oh, yeah, you were, where were you hacking up lungs last week or something? You're like, you're like hacking your lungs up all over the floor. Nice. That stuff's going around. Sam wrote in. This one I know I haven't gotten to. Can you discuss the merits of an auto life step in breadmaking? I find it much easier to mix the salt in with the flour initially, uh, rather than mixing into the dough after an autolized step. Thanks, Sam. Okay, so, Autolizer, Autolizer, or however you're
+
+[21:26] pronounced, right? Is that is it French? Anyway, life's meaning breaking up. And so the original, this comes from a dude, dead dude, by the way, died in 2005 named Raymond
+
+[21:38] Calvel, who was kind of one of the best known kind of teachers and authors about bread in his
+
+[21:45] era. I mean, like everyone kind of read, uh, you know, his book. Um, and uh, I think, according to the, my reference, he was a professor of baking. That's pretty sweet. professor of baking. I kind of want to be a, not really. But I mean, it's a good title. Would you take that title? I mean, you don't even do you like to bake? No, I hate it. But you still would take it, right? Professor of baking. You could be like on the on the anti-side. You could be like, you could be like that divinity professor that's an atheist. Yeah, she'd be radical professor. Yeah, right, right. Like, she'd be the one that everyone kind of moved away from at the at the at the baking professor conferences. Anyways, yeah, you know that person. You've seen them. It's does. Um, So anyway, he taught Julia Child and Simone Beck. So there's a good pedigree, right? Anyway, dude came up with this idea of an auto life step. And so what he thought was happening. Oh, what is it? What are we talking about? Okay. So, uh, you mix together, uh, like the water and yeast and the flour, not the salt, and you do an initial mix, right? And you let it sit around before you need it, right? So you don't need it right away, right, with a K. need with a K. And, uh, so what he thought was happening there was that, um, And I forget, maybe it's done as a higher hydration. I can't remember whether it's done as a higher hydration because I actually, uh, let me see. Uh, well, we'll look at anyway. So, uh, What you're, he thinks is happening is that Amilase enzymes in the starch are breaking in the
+
+[23:14] flour, are breaking down some of the starch into sugars for food for the yeast, right? I think that's why it's called auto lease. The thing is, like performing, like, uh, lice means to break apart, right? So things are being broken down in it on its own. And then you need it and then you let it go. But, I mean, I think that's the origin of the term, but I don't think anybody
+
+[23:34] really does that anymore, right? I don't think that's the reason why people do that rest anymore. So it should probably come up with a different name. I think what's happening, what most people say they're doing when they do is they let it rest. And by the way, the reason you don't put the salt in and you let it rest without the salt is you're giving the yeast and the other stuff a chance to get started in a 0 salt environment because the salt is
+
+[23:57] a yeast inhibitor, right? Now, remember, this auto lice step is not being done on breads, typically they're, you know, like a lot of people now, when they're doing their breads, especially like higher hydration stuff, or doing some some version of lesser
+
+[24:10] no need, Lahey style, like with, uh, although remember Chesory said, that's my style. Remember that? Yeah. Anyway, no, you know, no need or less need, super long fermented breads. And for those, I mean, I think it's probably ideal to put the salt in at the beginning because you're trying to prevent the yeast from working right away. Anyhoo, whatever. So you are doing it without the salt, and these things are happening, and then, uh, and then you go, but the advantages, I think, are really beyond, uh, any sort of enzymatic action that's happening there. The advantages are, um, you have a period of hydration that's taking place without
+
+[24:46] uh, needing, right? There's also some jump starting of the yeast. But even if you were to add the salt and let it rest, right, what you're getting there is a period of hydration. And, you know, a lot of studies are that the gluten formation is really a function just of hydration, which is why you, if you're letting the dough sit for a long, long time,
+
+[25:03] like, like, like many, many, many hours, you don't need to need it or you need much less needing because the gluten
+
+[25:10] will, in fact, form without all of that beating about, right, just by sitting around, especially if the hydration's high enough. So this step is allowing you to get some hydration into it so that you don't need to do as much
+
+[25:20] needing. And the benefit of not having to do as much needing is things like less oxidation and other things. I think that's the reason people do it now. But I wish we had talked about it. Um, you know, like a month and a half ago when the question came in and when I was more freshly
+
+[25:36] uh, thinking about uh, what's going on. But anyway, that's my feeling on it. Um, you want to take a, can we take a super quick break or are we totally shafted? Were totally shafted, aren't we? We can take a super quick break. do a super quick break. See if I can do that real quick.
+
+[25:57] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a locovore? Our Northeast Regional Forger for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store
+
+[26:15] level. Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their
+
+[26:21] products sold at our stores, whether it's suggesting packaging designs, pricing, or distribution methods. She's helping some of the area's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods Market stores. Today, New York, tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. All right, here's a here's probably the last one we're going to have time for, right? We're going to have to do another freaking catchup. Like whether or not we do it at Star Chefs. I can give you till one p.m. on the dot and then the buzzer goes off. Like that? Yeah. Okay. Josh Watson wrote in at cooking issues. Could you please give a basic intro into vacuum bag, fermentation, pickling safety on this week's show, uh, carbonated, and
+
+[27:03] then uh, hashtag, um, carbonated kimchi. So, um, Good question. So the question, look, whenever you're doing something like sauerkraut or kimchi,
+
+[27:16] right? you're automatically in an anaerobic fermentation situation, right? So from a safety standpoint, you shouldn't be any different whether or not that anaerobic fermentation is happening in the bottom of your pickle jar or your sauerkraut jar or whatever your, you know, your kimchi
+
+[27:39] jar or whether or not it's happening inside of a vacuum
+
+[27:44] bag. So, Things like, uh, you know,
+
+[27:49] this most of the spore forming uh, bacteria, they're going to grow, uh, you know, in a in a bad kind of a
+
+[27:54] fermentation uh, situation. Um, are going to, like, they're not going to compete so well if you have a whole bunch of lactic acid bacteria growing in there at the same time because the pH is going to
+
+[28:08] drop, and the, um, and the salt level is going to, uh, you're adding salt typically.
+
+[28:14] I mean, I wouldn't necessarily do it with super low salt, just because, I don't know, I'm not comfortable with it. But, um, So you're putting salt in, and then, uh, your, your, the lactic acid
+
+[28:27] bacteria, making a lower pH, and this is what's preventing the nasty stuff from growing in there. So the 1st thing to kind of realize is that there's fundamentally not that much of a difference between doing it the old school way and doing it in a vacuum
+
+[28:43] bag. Now, when you're doing, um, one of the disadvantages of doing it the old school way is that most people, let's say you're salting
+
+[28:51] cabbage when you're salting cabbage. Uh, a lot of people add water because they don't have enough water from the cabbage itself to, you know, make a nice crowd or
+
+[29:00] whatever. Now, I know, I was talking to Lucas, actually, you know, a listener, uh, who, uh, friend of ours, and he, like, beats the crap out of the cabbage with the salt so that it starts leaking enough liquid so that it can immerse itself in liquid white away, so
+
+[29:16] it doesn't have to worry about it. But, you know, or like I know, like if you're making kimchi, you're rubbing the salt in and letting it sit for a while, it kind of pre-weeps and you have enough liquid to repack into it. So that's one way to get around it. But literally, You just throw the stuff in vacuum bags, and you suck a vacuum on it, and shaboom, 1st of all, you've injected, uh, the liquid and the salt into the, uh, into the product, which obviates the need to beat the crap out of
+
+[29:43] it, because you're crushing some of the, you know, you're getting the stuff into the, into the pores anyway as it is. And uh, the other cool thing is, is that they're super neat little tidy packages, right? You don't need to have that giant croc that you push down. You don't have to worry about the giant croc that you push down. And it's just really clean and neat. The problem with, um, the vacuum bags when you're doing it is that, um, they blow up. I mean, and they can explode. So what I always do is I bag in one, I throw it in
+
+[30:13] uh, to uh, another bag and I lightly bag that one. I don't like bother, you know, sucking a huge vacuum on it. And so that way, and it's a larger bag. That way, if the if the smaller bag on the inside inflates to the point where it blows up, it just blows up into your bag, not into, you know,
+
+[30:33] another thing. Now this, this is conducive to, um, if you need to do a bunch of portions and have them, uh, you know, like you want to
+
+[30:41] have like, you know, like a quart at a time that coming out. Not as conducive if you're doing like 55 gallon barrels because there it's much more efficient to just beat the stuff down, put it in a giant 55 gallon barrel and let it rock and roll. Even like a gallon, I would say, just do it in a normal way. But if you're doing like a, you know, ahead of cabbage or two, I would say a vacuum bag is a really, really good way to go and totally safe. And I've done it many, many times. Now, it will not allow the CO2 escape as much, so it will get lightly carbonated, and we spoke to Alex Naki from ideas and food. They detest it. I love it. Do you like a little carbonation in your in your pickles or in your in your kimchi? Do you like kimchi? I don't choose to eat it. With that side bread. Yeah. I like Jack. Jack's like, really? on. kimchi. I see a pizza with salad. Do you not like kimchi because everyone loves it? Or do you actually does not like it? I don't choose to eat it. I don't mind kimchi. just never order it. Yeah? All right. So, uh, I had something we had something else that we were doing like right now that I needed to talk that we needed to talk on air about. to apologize. That's it. Okay, so listen. Are they almost all done? How many? Yeah. We have 3 that are shipping. Seersols. Okay, we're talking about the se resolves on the way out. So 1st of all, you know, we would like to apologize for how long it took us to get this stuff out in general, uh, and like Stas and I are, we're talking about a
+
+[32:09] seersol, uh, which have shipped. Uh, I frankly am shocked at, I am like so shocked. Like, I am beyond shocked and angered at Amazon, how long it took them to fulfill the orders, how long they had those
+
+[32:25] sears alls in their warehouse and shipping it out. And what's really depressing is that no one believes us. You know what I mean? They like, it's Amazon. They should put the next day. And then, remember, like, so, like, we sent them to stuff, we had some errors in our addresses, so we gave them an updated address list for, and then Amazon decided last week to then suddenly start selling them live. live. Before all of our Kickstarter and shopstarter people had gotten their orders in. And then Stas, like, calls me, like, while I'm working on something,
+
+[32:56] it freaks out, and we, like, losing our minds, and then when we tell people this is this mistake, There's people who don't believe us. Like, why would we want to, Why would we want to not fulfill the
+
+[33:11] thing? And I say, so Stas very quickly called Amazon, had it pulled, had all of those orders canceled. The good news is as many as she could. Some had already been shipped out, but not a lot. The good news is, is that all, but you said three? Yeah three. All but three. Do we have the names of the people? Or do you not want to read them out? We don't want to read them out. All but 3 of you have gotten your Sears all notification. Most of you have it in the mail already. We've been checking. Oh, yeah. And the internationals, you know, obviously are going to take longer because of custom, so... Right, but they've all been shipped. The Internationals were shipped long ago. Yeah, but it's gonna... Yeah, it has to go through custom segment. But every, everything but these last 3 seriesols, these 3 lonely seriesols have been shipped out. So we're super excited. We're going to have the steak decorator coming in soon. I hope, the proto that we're going to approve. And if you haven't gotten yours or any confirmation. email, seerswell at bookerandax.com. Yeah, if you have, if you have not gotten an email saying you're going to receive your sears all, like, we think you have. That's not like 0 email at all, 0 from anything. UPS, UPS, Amazon, whatever, whatever. If you have heard nothing, email that address. Yeah, but I'm also super happy that people seem to be enjoying it to have it. So I'm very gratified. I love all the Twitter stuff that you guys are sending with the with the
+
+[34:33] seresols coming in. One thing I will say on the way out, people are like, there's some flame coming out of the
+
+[34:38] front. Is this normal? Hell yeah, right? Oh, yeah. Doesn't see her some. Sears all cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[34:59] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Wholefoodsmarket.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Looking shoes
+
+[0:56] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issue. Hello, and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from music. What was that music? It was awesome. Oh, that was the next song on the playlist. Oh, you know what that is.
+
+[1:18] Oh, cheese. Oh, cheese. Oh, yeah. All cheese all day here on the Heritage Radio Network with the cheese song. Hey, speaking of, you know, I met the guy who co-wrote George Clinton's new autobiography. Wouldn't that be sweet if we, like, what would it take to get George Clinton to show up at the Heritage Radio Network? Oh man. I don't know if I should say. I mean I don't know. I would pretty much do anything to get George Clinton here in the studio. We'll work on it. You know what I'm saying? I mean, can you think of anything? I mean, like, that would be like the most amazing coup ever, right, Stas? Yeah. But he would hate it because I would just sit there and like freak out the whole time and be like, I love you, I love you. You know what I mean? It'd be embarrassing. kind of bad when I meet people like that, actually. I should probably not meet them. Julian, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, you got Jack over there in the engineering
+
+[2:10] booth, and we were missed last week because I was at the Star Chiefs, so we didn't get a chance to send a special thanking shout out to Johnny and all the guys at the
+
+[2:20] underground food collective at University of Madison. We haven't been on the air since that, right? Seems like a 1000000000 years ago, doesn't it? Seems like a long, long time. Those guys are great. We had a fantastic time in Madison. You, do you like it? They got those 2 lakes. What are they called? Don't remember. They're named after the judge sisters, right? Like Winona and something like this? No, it's Mendota and Menona. I think are the 2 lakes. Really pretty up there. Nice place. People are nice. Okay. Milwaukee nice too. Milwaukee? Stas and I and Peter from the Museum of Food and Drink, we were all up there
+
+[2:50] doing a, you know, a Museum of Food and Drink thing. So Stas is like, I'm not driving. We drove from Chicago. Why? We'd fly into Milwaukee. only God knows. We drove from Chicago to University of Madison because, you know, I've missed demos
+
+[3:03] before where I have like 8000000000 connector flights and like the one that we could take. Like there was like, I don't know, some some ping-pong of flights that we needed to take, you know, via Omaha or some crap to make it to Madison.
+
+[3:14] And I was like, I'm gonna miss a demo. So, no. So we drove we flew to Chicago. And then we drove up. So I was like, I'm not driving through Milwaukee without having some
+
+[3:23] bratwurst. I'm not doing it. Isn't that pretty much what you said? pretty much just like that. So we found this crazy place. What was it called? The old German beer hall or something like that. It's modeled on the Hofboy house in Munich. And, um, Holy crap, what a great place, right? Usinger, sausage, whatever it is. And they had this game that we played that Stas, you like this game as much. It's called Hammer the Nail or something like this. I guess so. Like hit the nail. It's called like someone like hit the nail anyways. For 50 cents. First of all, you go in there and you, you, and, you know, the
+
+[3:57] waitress, who's very nice, didn't understand why I didn't understand this concept, but if you were to buy a
+
+[4:03] Bratwurst with one side, right? That's 6 bucks. Six dollars. Right? If you order a beer for $5, the brat verse comes free. With a side. Right. With a side. And so I said to the lady, I was like, is it the same brat versus inside or like some sort of factory seconds or some sort of miniature bratwurst that comes with the with the with the beer or soda? only root beer, not seltzer. How nuts is that? So the lady ended up giving me a root because I was driving, giving me a root beer that I gave to you or Peter, and then also a salsa for free. But she's like, no, it's the same exact... It's but it's cheaper than free. It's negative money. It's negative money. It made no damn sense to me, but she thought that I was crazy for not understanding it. But anyways, back to this hit the nail thing. So they have a giant stump. What do you think, Stas? Like 3 feet across, 3.5 feet maybe across, giant stump at like, you know, kind of like chest height, a little bit lower. Like, you know, we'll work surface height, like counter counter height, stump. Big stump. And you buy for ¢50, a cut nail, an old-fashioned, like, you know, triangular shaped cut nail. And then they have a steel hammer, like, you know, Thor style hammer chained to this freaking stump, and then you have to go around each taking a turn whacking at the nail, and whoever sinks it last, they,
+
+[5:22] uh, you know, they buy the next round. Well, or so, you know, so we told Peter, I don't know. he wasn't believing the story. I'm not saying that I'm not saying that he lost twice, Peter, to us. I'm not saying that. But he did. But the interesting thing about it is, is that, like, can you imagine this in New York? Like, how many times did we hit the nail wrong and it went flying across the room? It's like a bunch of eyeless people. But apparently, like, you know, those folks with their giant moss beers, they have Stein clubs where you can buy the Stein and have it sit in the club there. Sweet. Anyway, those guys can apparently hit that sucker in one whack. Anyway, Milwaukee. Hey, before we jump in, um, just wanted to maybe hear your thoughts on, um, you know, the guy from
+
+[6:04] Kartalk passed away this week, which I didn't know that. Yeah, like when? Um, yesterday. Oh, yeah, because I just heard him on Sunday or whatever. Or was Saturday, whatever, whenever it's on the NPR. Yeah, were you a fan? I mean, I you know, I'm, I mean, I really respect what they did. I wasn't like a long time listener, but you know, my stepfather was who can't, like, who can't, you know, barely, you know, work a mechanical pencil.
+
+[6:26] He used to like listening to it. I mean, like, uh, I definitely enjoy Dewey Cheatham and How, right? Which is like their, their, I guess, fictional, but maybe now real law firm, Dewey
+
+[6:37] Cheatham and how? Because, you know, they had a, you've listened to car talk before, right? You never listen to it once? Oh, God, they were on for like 25 years or something like that, weren't they? Wow. That's too bad It's funny, sometimes I call cooking issues like the car talk for food. I wish. I wish. Now we need to get like snappier, like, you know, things at the end and I don't know. We have to have our listeners only ask one question on the phone. Well, but the card talk guys, they talk to, they talk to like one person for like 8
+
+[7:06] years and then just, the thing is, is like, the thing about them is that they can do really well or, you know, did really well is like completely make fun of the
+
+[7:14] listener. Right? We don't do that. We don't make fun of our listeners the way they did, but it's good nature what they were doing, but they're basically called everyone incompetent who called in, right? I mean, pretty much that's what they did. You big fan, Jack? Yeah, I was a fan. I mean, absolutely. I mean, we do make fun of maybe like Roberta's staff members, though, right? Yeah. That's okay. Talking about Santa's Little Hipster. Indie cheese. Indie Jesus? Speaking of which, you know, we have a question in today, Jack, on maybe we can get it during the break on Roberta's pizza dough. And we need to find whoever, like, the current, like, not when I mean current, like, all time, but, like, the actual this
+
+[7:49] 2nd, like, resident expert on the pizza day. Oh yeah, we'll get somebody on the line. Yeah, because I want, like, I want to answer this question properly. I think I have the answer, but, you know, since I'm in Roberta's freaking pizzeria and the guy calls to ask me about, you know, Roberta's Pizza dough, it would be dumb for me to, you know, speculate, right? Yeah. I do have a caller on the line that's probably not going to ask about Roberta's pizza. You never know. You never, never know. Color, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? doing well. Hey, um, I have a question about making uh, homemade soda and actually bottling it in glass bottles with one of those wing style cappers. Sure. Um, and I want it to be shelf stable at room temp, preferably with no benzuay or any additives or anything. Not that I'm against using that. I just, it's kind of my shtick. I want it to just be water, flavorings, and fear too. So how do you recommend going about doing that? Is even practical without some crazy equipment? Yeah. Well, you're pretty much hosed. How many do you need to make? Uh, I would like to make a bunch, like for the holidays. Like how much is that? good size around, like probably upwards of a 100 bottles. Yeah, and how much, here's the thing, right? Um, you need to kill yeast on the inside of that thing. Right? And, uh, it's been a long time since I've researched it, but, you know, your 2 main problems, there are some, I think, there's nothing dangerous that will grow in it, but, uh, you know, there are, um, certain, um,
+
+[9:22] there are certain yeast that will grow in it and will ferment the sugar out or that
+
+[9:27] will there. I think there's also, I forget, it's been a long time since I've researched it, because I've had to research self-stability of sodas before. Um, you know, there's, uh, I think there's some bacteria, nothing dangerous, but stuff that's going to ruin the flavor of the soda and also make it not clear anymore,
+
+[9:41] uh, assuming that it's clear. So like all of these things are going to cause you problems, right? Um, So there's a couple ways around this. I don't remember what the percentage is, but you could probably hit it. I mean, well, of course, they're not sodas anymore. you can hit it with alcohol to stabilize it, but you need a relatively large amount of alcohol,
+
+[9:59] like, so it's nowhere near a soda anymore. You know what I mean? to try and stabilize it. Or you could attempt to pasteurize it. Now, I don't know what the
+
+[10:09] increase. So for instance, if you were to heat to pasteurize on the inside of a bottle,
+
+[10:14] uh, you're gonna get extremely high internal pressures on the inside of that bottle, like very high pressures on the inside of that
+
+[10:22] bottle. So, I mean, so one of the limitations when you're going to pasteurize a soda, is you'll notice that a lot of the, you'll notice if you go to
+
+[10:33] like a, let's say you go to a supermarket like Whole Foods, it only sells sodas that don't contain preservatives, right?
+
+[10:38] Okay. So you go to one of these places and you buy a soda there, you'll probably notice that most of those natural sodas are relatively
+
+[10:46] undercarbonated compared to, let's say, coke or 7 up, right? Sure. And, um, one of the reasons is, is because it's more difficult for them to, um,
+
+[10:58] pasteurize, the higher the level of CO2 that's in the bottle, the more difficult the pasteurization becomes.
+
+[11:04] So, you know, you could you could try. I mean, I don't know what temperatures you need to reach, but you could put the suckers inside of a pressure cooker and
+
+[11:13] like see if they blow. You know what I mean? Are you doing bottle conditioned or not bottle conditioned? What's that? Are you bottle conditioning it or are you force carbonating it? Uh, it would, it would be coming out of like a, uh, liquid bread setup, you know, 2 liter? I just be throwing it through a funnel and Buic old bottle. Right, so you don't need the yeast to be alive or anything like that. Okay. So, yeah, I mean... There are some other natural, it's been, again, it's been like over a year since I've had
+
+[11:43] the research. I don't remember, but there are other, like, natural slash preservatives that kind of dissipate inside the bottle over time.
+
+[11:50] You know what I was looking at actually recently, but I haven't, but it affects the flavor of it, is rowan berries, which are mountain ash. are used in liqueurs and they're astringent in red. They contain naturally sorbic acid, and sorbic acid is a preservator, a preservative with
+
+[12:12] anti-microbial, and I believe anti-yeast activity that you could just say that you made rowan berry flavor. And then if you, you know, and then I, I don't know whether there's enough levels in a standard decoction of the stuff to actually, um, prevent yeast growth, but I mean, it's at least it's from a fruit, but it contains the actual stuff that you used as a preservative just in natural
+
+[12:39] form so that you can just say I use rowan berry. I don't know if that's helpful. Right, yeah. I mean, well, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that if I sterilize all the equipment and
+
+[12:49] then purge the bottles with CO2, fill them really quickly and then cap them immediately, presumably there's really no oxygen in the
+
+[12:57] bottle? I mean, is is that correct? Um, is that a good way to handle it or just? Are you going to give people the liquid bread carbonator cap? No. Yeah. Because one way to do it is to, um,
+
+[13:10] you basically, you would fill the bottles hot so that they used to be dead. You'd heat the, you'd heat the, um, Yeah, I see. You heat the product, right? pasteurize it beforehand and then carbonate it once it's been pasteurized so that you don't have to worry about pressure problems.
+
+[13:27] And you could do that in a soda bottle. Now, presumably everything that's inside of the bottle is pasteurized, but, you know, no matter how hard you work,
+
+[13:36] there'll probably be some yeast. Will it last a lot longer? Yeah, probably. In other words, it'll probably make it state. The answer is it's probably going to be a lot more stable if you do it that way. If you put the stuff into the plastic bottles that you're going to carbonate with with liquid bread. You like totally, you know, you know, sterilize the, you know,
+
+[13:53] sanitized the bejesus out of the glass bottle, store them upside down, uh, and then, uh, you know, with a cap over them
+
+[13:59] or whatever, or upright set up with a cap over them, pasteurize the stuff in the plastic bottle, chill it, then carbonate it without opening it to the atmosphere and decant it in.
+
+[14:08] I mean, that's probably your best bet, but it's not a guarantee. You know what I'm saying? Okay, yeah, yeah. Does benzoate just remove that hassle? Yeah. Okay. All right. Fair enough. But a lot of people don't like it, but you're only using it in like a small amount. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks so much. All right, thank you. Good luck with it. All right. All right, thanks. Bye. All right. Uh, and speaking of uh, carbonate stuff. We got a couple carbonated questions. We might as well take them, right? Did we deal with the pear cider last time? Jim? Can't remember. It's been so long. Hey, Dave. I do have Anthony Falco, the head pizza guy from Roberta's on the line if you want to do that. Let's do that. Yeah. You there, Falco? Hey, yeah, how's it going? Hey, thanks for thanks for talking to us. I just got to scroll down in my questions and find the Roberta's related question. Kevin is using your recipe from the book here. And here's here's what Kevin says. I have a question on sourdough starter and pizza. I currently use Roberta sourdough starter pizza dough recipe from the book, presumably, with a kettle
+
+[15:11] pizza, wood charcoal burning pizza oven for those you don't know. It's like a ring that converts like a Weber style grill into like a, into a pizza oven. You can load in and out of without lifting the top. And I don't get the same oven spring with that as the crust, as I do with a regular
+
+[15:27] yeasto recipe. So he's saying that what he's getting is a fairly flat dense crust, and he says that he's feeding a sourdough starter only weekly with 45 grams of AP and 35 grams of
+
+[15:39] water. And both recipes are two-day cold ferments, and he brings them up before baking them, blah, blah, blah. My feeling is, is it's too acid, right? It's like he's allowing a starter to get 2 acid, so it's going slack because of too much acid. Because remember, is that you think that's it? Yeah, I mean, this, if you're feeding your, uh, sourdough starter weekly, it's not, it's not, um, gonna do anything. Um, he's going to need to. I mean, it's fine to speed your sourdough weekly. Uh to keep it alive. That's like uh life support. If you want it to be awake to, like, actually, you know, do the heavy lifting of the, of the living of your, of your bread, which it sounds like it's not doing, is he's going to need to feed
+
+[16:28] it, um, a couple days, twice a day, a couple days before. Um, he, he makes the pizza, and the way he'll know it's ready to go, it will be like bubbly and frothy and light.
+
+[16:45] You know, if it looks like just soupy wet flour, then, you know, it's, it's, somewhere dormant inside that mixture is, is the, the
+
+[16:57] ye, the combination of the yeast and the bacteria that he needs to, to leaven his dough.
+
+[17:02] But, unless it's actually, you know, there's a, the percentage of those
+
+[17:08] yeast, and bacteria that are awake and ready to fucking rock and roll are, excuse me,
+
+[17:14] sorry. Um, is is going to be really low. And so he needs to bring that percentage up by feeding them, you know, multiple waking them
+
+[17:23] up because if he's, I'm assuming he's, if he's feeding it weakly, he's keeping it in his refrigerator. That's what I, he doesn't say, but I assumed. And like, I'm super glad I'm talking to you because I didn't even think that the sucker wasn't rising at all.
+
+[17:34] Like it was like not active enough. I thought it was probably inactive because they were dying and his dough
+
+[17:40] was too acidic, so the gluten was not, you know, was not as extensible. It was losing some power out of that. You know how like when sourdough goes too sour, it like, you know, it can flatten out and the, but then the crust would also be too, would it be too white, right? It wouldn't look right if he was actually going to acidic on it. Yeah, I mean, there would just be a lot of things would be off. But to me, if it's, when he says this, and and lack of spring, I mean, I, you know, I'm assuming that he's cutting it open and there's no crumb, you know, when he says it's dense, but it's like, and the crumb would be the, those little holes
+
+[18:16] in the indication that like fermentation is happening. Yeah. I think it's exactly... What are your thoughts for someone like this who's not going to not, you know, pro baking, doing it, feeding it once a week, and keeping a relatively small amount?
+
+[18:28] What are your thoughts on keeping it at a higher hydration level so that it kind of wakes up faster? And then like doing like a... Yeah, his his, his, he's retarding his yeast. If he's putting in the refrigerator, he's retarding it. So, you know, if you, you're following our dough instructions, um, we are, are mixing, and resting and mixing, and then we're retarding the dough for, for a
+
+[18:53] long uh, fermentation overnight. Um, but if it's already retarded, then the whole thing is just gonna be too retarded. work Yeah. I know it's all bread baking terminology, but it just sounds funny when you say it that way. Yeah, um, so, you know, he's got, he's got to get it awake. So he's got to bring it out the room temperature, and it's really a visual thing, you know,
+
+[19:17] and, and, and, and you can smell it too. So it's a visual and olfactory uh indications are going to be there before you put your sourdough in. It should be like, literally like, you know, foaming, like, bubbling up and like, you know, you can see all the little holes in the
+
+[19:35] top. When you shake it, it's like light and and and like the consistency of foam. It's actually a foam that is what it is because it's a, you know, a liquid with a lot of, uh, you know, uh,
+
+[19:48] air caps in it. So it is a foam. And so, you know, if it's, if it's dense and and like a slurry of just flour and water. It's just not the beast and, you know, they're in there. It's just not awake. In my experience with the sourdough starter. If I wanted to use it after having it in the refrigerator for a week, I would give myself 2 days. I would bring it out like, you know, 3 days before I was going to start in the morning, and you know, I would feed it, and then, and at night, and leave it in a warm place, like, you know, preferably, 75 degrees, 75 to 80 degrees. And then, uh, and then that night, I would feed again, and the next day, I would
+
+[20:28] feed again, and then, uh, that, that last feeding that night before, I would expect to see some, some activity, and a lot
+
+[20:35] of like, boozy smell coming out of it by the end of the night. Right. No way to cheat it in one day though, huh? Back to life out of the fridge. No, I, I, you know, like, so, you know, you're,
+
+[20:50] like, when I use commercials, I'm crossing my fingers, you know, every time. It's like, you know, it's, you're dealing with these living creatures, you know, and you're trying to convince them to do something for you on a, you know, microbiological
+
+[21:02] scale. So, you know, it's, uh, sourdough is, is, you know, it's very
+
+[21:08] tricky, and, and, uh, you know, I tell people this, in, uh, in my pizza class, and like, just, you
+
+[21:14] gotta get, you gotta really become familiar with this process with just commercial yeast before you start playing with sourdoughs, and then once you start playing with sourdoughs, I mean, everyone's is going to be different,
+
+[21:25] so you really got to get to know yours. Um, Right. So, Yeah, I mean, that's, that would be, that would be my guess. I mean, if he has, uh, you know, if any of this is wrong, if I've just speculated way too much, then he should email me at
+
+[21:41] Anthony at roberta'spizza.com. I would love to continue to get him going on the right path. Well, we really appreciate it. And also, uh, did Millennium Falco Pizza made by you or name for you or both? Uh, it was, it was a, uh, invention of mine, uh, from the early days in the pizza kitchen, um, and it's an homage to my, uh, Sicilian, uh, great grandmother who used to make pizza from
+
+[22:08] scratch and she used to make it, similar to that, you know, but not in around, you know, kind of neo- neo-Neapolitan kind of way, but she used to do it in Japan, like a, like a thicker crust.
+
+[22:19] But it was like that. She put the bread crumbs and the onion, sauce and, you know, uh, see, that's, that's the way she would make, uh, pizza. So, it was kind of
+
+[22:30] homage to that. Nice. Listen, we really appreciate you coming on and straighten this out for Kevin. Hopefully he can get his stuff in order. Maybe he can come up with his schedule so that if he's going to do it every week, he could bring it out a couple days before, feed it up, use it, put it in the fridge, you know? not that much harder. No, absolutely not. I mean, he just needs to bring it out. that's just based on the information I have is bring it out a little early and just get it, get it woken up. You know, it's a little retarded, get it a little, you know, little more, a little more ready to rock. All right, well, thanks so much. Let's go to a break. We'll come back with more commercial, more commercial. More cooking issues, I wish. All right. Thank you. Hey, and also, if, you know, if listeners want to listen every Tuesday at 7 PM, Roberta's radio. They have their own show, Roberta's radio, and you can hear a lot more from Falco. And with that being said, we'll be right back.
+
+[23:34] Today's program has been brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Are you a locovore? Our Northeast Regional Forager for Whole Foods Market sure is. She spends her time traveling around the New York City metro area, sourcing the best new or interesting artisanal and handcrafted local products for our purchasing teams at the local store level.
+
+[23:56] Part of our commitment to our local suppliers includes assisting them with the process of getting their
+
+[24:00] products sold at our stores, whether it's suggesting packaging designs,
+
+[24:05] pricing, or distribution methods, she's helping some of the area's best new products reach savvy shoppers at Whole Foods
+
+[24:11] market stores. Today, New York, tomorrow, the world. For more information, visit wholefoodsmarket.com. Hey, my name is Sam KB. I just moved to New York, and you're listening to HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You recognize that voice? No, who is that? From Underground Meats. Oh, yes, Johnny? Sam. Sam. I wasn't listening. I did say my name is Sam. I wasn't listening. I was looking at those things. Oh, geez. Sorry, Sam. I wasn't listening. Now I know what it's like to be stars. Boom. Boom. Boom. Oh my god. Except you weren't shopping for shoes. I wasn't shopping shoes. I was looking at the next question. All right, go to Payless. That does not require online shopping. So John Stewart from Madison met us when we were out there and said that he thought that it was at times shocking how mean I
+
+[25:12] am too. Nastasia. But let me just say in my defense, you got to know her. I don't know if that's a defense. I'm just saying that like, you know, the people are only only hearing what they hear on the radio. Like, you know, like, you know, when it's like, you know, they can't see that she might be sitting there with like a
+
+[25:34] needle like poking me the entire time. You know what I mean? Not happening. Not a literal needle. Everyone, everyone's out. Uh, now Stas is giving me the head wag back and forth. Okay. Kevin Scott writes in about freeze dryers. Hey, have you guys played around with the harvest, right freeze dryer or heard from anyone who has? It looks like a reasonable alternative to lab freeze dryer, but it's difficult to tell how well the thing is built and how consistent it will be over time. Thanks, Kevin Scott. Now, uh, Kevin. So I, someone asked me once uh, before on the, uh, on Twitter, I think, actually, and I was a big Twitter, like, you know, back and forth about it, uh,
+
+[26:20] I, you know, I have not used it. I did look at their website. This was, what was that? It was like a year ago or something? It was like a year ago. I looked at their website. And the layout of the machine. It's fundamentally fairly similar to the old, uh, vertis, uh, freeze dryers with the with the door that opens up. you know, and the things that I was researching at the time where, you know, in any freeze dryer, like some of the important things you have to look for are
+
+[26:49] the how many leaders, the cold trap is, right? Because in order to freeze dry, you need to be able to remove the water from the product. And if you, if you can't thaw out your cold trap in the middle of your freeze drying run, it's
+
+[27:04] just you can't do it. So, you know, you're limited. The quantity of product that you can freeze dry is not just limited by the size of the chamber that you're freeze drying
+
+[27:13] in. It's also limited by the size of your cold trap. Uh, so that's one thing to look at. And another thing in terms of quality is the quality of the product is the temperature of the cold trap. And, you know, from everything I've read, colder is better. Now, the ideas in food guys, Alex and Aki, gave us a food, a freeze dryer, you know, before they moved,
+
+[27:36] but we haven't had time to play with it yet because there's a problem with the,
+
+[27:40] there's a problem with the vacuum gauge. So I need to get that working. So I don't have a lot of practical experience with it. But from what I can look from a purely specification level. The, uh, the, uh, harvest rite seems like uh, a good deal. And I, you know, because it's only, I think, like maybe 3 or 4 grand or something compared to like 20 for a
+
+[28:00] regular one. So if anyone has any experience with it, I appreciate a tweet in or a call in, uh, you know, to
+
+[28:07] let, uh, let them know what, uh, what's going on, right? Okay. Now, Jim wrote in a while ago. This is for one of the older shows that we're trying to catch up to. Tell us if we've done this already, had a bumper crop of pears this year, so I made a batch of
+
+[28:22] pear cider, wanted some sparkle in the bottle, so I added a little sugar to each, capped
+
+[28:26] it, and left it alone. One month later, I opened the 1st bottle and it sprayed everywhere. Spent an hour cleaning the kitchen. That's a lot of spray. I don't want pair. Hey, listen, you weren't making cherry, cherry wine, but that would have sucked, right? Maybe you did add cherries to the pair and it's bright. don't know. Well, probably not, right? Probably not. Okay. Clearly I added too much sugar. And now they're all too carbonated. Any way to get the rest of these bottles open without an explosion or are all 20 bottles lost. There is clearly yeast sediment at the bottom of each bottle that creates many nucleation sites for carbonation to explode. So I wonder if I should try disgorging it first, freeze a neck and cold salt water, et cetera, any advice greatly appreciated. And for what it's worth, what little was left did taste good. Peaceful thoughts, jam in Durham, North Carolina. Now, that's a good question. I've never done Disgorgement before, but I mean, it's been, people do it for 100s and 100s of years. So presumably you can, uh, you can do it. Um, you know, with the salt and ice bottles upside down. You have to wrap it. You gonna have to rack the settlement. You're going to have to keep the bottles pointed, you know, at that angle, and you can look at pictures of the way they do it in champagne for reference, and then just keep rotating them,
+
+[29:38] uh, you know, over the course of, I don't know, however long it takes to get the sediment down in the bottom of the bottle, and then do your freeze off and cap and blast it
+
+[29:47] out, um, and assuming that you have a long enough neck in it to hold all the sediment, you should
+
+[29:53] sediment. You should be able to do it. Um, you know, another way is you, the problem is you want to keep, you know, kind of oxygen away from another way to do it is to literally open these things inside of inside of a giant plastic bag inside of a bucket,
+
+[30:11] uh, and then, um, you know, cap it so that you're not so that, you know, the CO2 is going to come off. It's going to form a CO2 layer. And then let it settle over the course of a couple days in a plastic bucket or a
+
+[30:23] carboy, right? And then, um, rack the stuff off the top and then force carbonate it instead of
+
+[30:29] bottle instead of like, uh, instead of conditioning it, bottle conditioning it, force carbonate it back to level it was. And if you're lucky, you know, you're not going to have too much oxidation over that period. But that should also work if you don't want to go through the Disgorgement. And that's probably what I would do because I would be so angry and I would want to do it right away that the thought of sitting there and rotating them day after day would like drive me nuts. So I would probably just stick them inside of a plastic bag and go spray. Make sure your plastic bag doesn't smell bad. A lot of plastic bags have weird kind of, you ever smell inside of a plastic bag? Yeah. I mean, Stas and I do it because we're like, who are you to tell me not to put my face inside of a plastic bag, right? Really hard days, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. You know, her oven, very small. I don't even have an oven. Oh, come on, you don't have enough anymore? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How am I just figuring this out right now? Your most recent apartment has a door person, but not a... Microwave confection. How's that? Not good. I put a pumpkin in in the ceramic cracked. What do you mean? What ceramic? The whatever the microwave has as a base. Oh, the plate. plate, yeah. That's so weak Is it yours or is it the landlords? The owners. I need to get a new one. I need to ask for anyone. Look, are you even allowed to rent space in New York? It doesn't have like cooking appliances in it. Yeah that's weird. Yeah, yeah, you are. I've seen like just the hot plate in some apartments, you know? You mean like a dorm? No. Is there a space for an oven that's now filled with some other stuff? Dishwasher, which is crazy. Why do you need to wash dishes if you don't ever cook? I mean, I cook a lot. I found a way to get around the convection. What's that No, like smaller, smaller trees and stuff. Huh, huh. So this person was like a raw foodist? No, most apartments in the building have this thing. But yet they pay for a doorman. Yeah. That's very odd All right. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna just ignore it because my brain is fried. So a couple of weeks ago, we had a couple of people give advice on why they,
+
+[32:41] we had this issue where this, you know, I forget who it was, but they were rendering fat using kind of the modernist cuisine technique of putting the fat in a
+
+[32:49] jar and then rendering it in the pressure cooker with a little baking soda,
+
+[32:54] right? Remember that? And then I had a speculation and Chris Young said, yeah, he didn't know why. But then I had a couple other people write in. But I don't think we've ever figured it out yet. Eric, I didn't get, you know, his last name, a lot of interesting ideas and some links to some articles about, um, he was specifically focusing on
+
+[33:12] the, uh, how the change in temperature can change the, um, the solubility of gases over
+
+[33:20] time. But, uh, you know, and then uh, Dave Kleiman wrote in, says when he when he does confit in a
+
+[33:26] jar, then it bubbles for hours even after you take it out. So one of the, you know, the thing we're going to have to figure out, if we can't even figure
+
+[33:32] out, is, is the stuff actually cold when it's still bubbling or not, because that means something, you know, other than that. And the assumption is, is that it's sealed inside of the jar and it's bubbling inside of a sealed jar. those are the 2 assumptions. So I don't think we've gotten to the bottom of it yet. But, you know, if I ever have enough time on the radio, I could read Eric's entire response, but I can't because, you know, because Stas gives me the, the,
+
+[33:54] the finger wag. Do you know that? Stas, like you should just market your finger wag, you know? Anyway. Um, Andrea Peroti writes in regarding
+
+[34:05] uh, sous vide cooking and selepton derma. I just got my very 1st emersion circulator and a nova in the mail, and I'm excited, but I don't have a vacuum machine. That's fine. You don't need a vacuum machine to do most of this stuff. 90% of the stuff you do. I like to say, it's my favorite phrase. 90% of the stuff you can do with a circulator. You dont need a vacuum machine for. Can you please recommend some of your favorite must cook as soon as you get a circulator food? Foods. Thank you very much for the work and knowledge you share on the radio. I wish learning stuff could always be as fun as listening to cooking issues. That's very nice. Very nice. Stas is giving me, I doubt that face. I wish you guys, we need, like, you know what? Can you guys capture some of these faces and then we can just like flash them onto the internet. I'd be more interested to see like an artist interpretation, you know, someone that just listens to the show. Oh, yeah. They can draw some faces. I know. That's why it would be fun. Who knows what they'd make you look like. Oh my god. Anyways. Let me eggs, right? So specifically, like, you know, banging out like 162 degree eggs for like a party or a 63 degree
+
+[35:03] egg, Celsius, of course, is like the miracle, creamy egg that you can't otherwise do. And then steaks for parties, I think, is pretty, you know, a pretty good
+
+[35:11] one that, you know, I would do like a thick rib steak at like 55 Celsius. Cool it down to 50 and then, well, I would hit it with a C result. But, you know, you can finish it however you want on a super hot thing. What size do you have a circle? What are your favorite things to do in the circuit? I don't really use it. Hi, what's wrong with it? The hell's wrong with you? Brain damage. It's the new one and I just don't like it, you know? You wish you had gotten one of the old ones? All right. well we'll work on that. So, those, I mean, those are like right up there, then like reheating, like, or keeping mashed potatoes warm is a fantastic application of
+
+[35:49] it. all depends on what you like to cook. I mean, the 1st thing, you know, most people, the 1st thing out of the box that they do with it is proteins or eggs, I would say,
+
+[35:58] right? Some, something like that. Uh, and, uh, right. PS just came back from Turkey, managed to get my hands on a couple 100 grams of celeb, the one to make Don Derma, not the less than 10% celeb hot drink mix. I don't know. Yeah, that hot drink makes it, says it's celeb, no relation. Maybe it has some in it, but it just tastes like some sort of a grainy beverage. Does that sound gross? Grainy beverage. Grainy beverage. For those of you that don't know what we're talking about. Celeb is the orchid, the orchid bulb powder that is used to make the stretchy Turkish ice cream. Uh, and then he wants to know, would we like to play with it? Sure, I love playing with it. You know, the person who did the most work on celeb, so I 1st heard of a celeb from Harold McGee when he was doing work with us at the French
+
+[36:44] Culinary Institute on alternate ice cream textures. Celeb was one and the French pins and needles ice cream was another one. Uh, and uh, so he 1st talked about it and then Kent Kirschenbaum at the experimental cuisine collective at NYU did a lot of work on it uh, back in the day. So he's actually characterized a lot of the polymers that are in it. He a polymer chemist. So you might want to look up, he might have published something on it. I'm not sure, but, you know, he's always happy to talk celebs. So you can talk to him, but I love it because I haven't had it in a while. I actually just like, I like using it, right? So that he they substitute now, Conjak, which is, I think it's Conjak they use, which is, you know, another glucamanin. But anyways, yeah, I mean, I always love to love to play with some. Anyway, Stas is giving me the, the, the, the, stuff, people don't wear watches anymore. Why is that still a valid thing to do? Do you know what it means? I know, but like, what if you did that to a kid? Would they have any idea what that is? I don't think so. Right? They wouldn't know. It's weird but true. Yeah. J. Travis writes in, hey, guys, sorry this is a long one. I've tried my hand on doing a bird porchetta on in the on chicken with great
+
+[37:48] results and this year I am attempting to do a show stopping turkey version for Thanksgiving, inspired by Kenji
+
+[37:53] Lopez's, my version goes like this. Disassembled, and I haven't seen Kenji's post on this, but I have a lot of experience rolling birds, a lot of experience rolling birds. Disassembled bird, brine breast meat, grind dark meat into a loose sausage, roll the
+
+[38:07] breast around the ground sausage and fashion it into a roll with cling wrap, then into the freezer. Take it out, wrap it up in the skin. Uh... What? Tie off and seal into the bath at the dark meat temp, take out when done, refrigerator, because he's not using TG, right? Not using translutaminates. I always use TG in this. I would use TG, TG better. Takeout when done, refrigerate before opening, reserve pouch juices, and fry up to
+
+[38:32] crisp skin. It's amazing, but my question to these. When I get to my aunt's house for Thanksgiving, I cannot deep fry this thing in her bustling kitchen. How much am I going to sacrifice this great skin if I tent it and then gently reheat it with with roasting it at her house, would it benefit for me to drop the alkalinity in the cooking bag a little, maybe serve it chill with aioli greens instead, help J.
+
+[38:54] Travis. Well, 1st of all, you can't serve a Thanksgiving turkey cold. Sorry, you can't. You know what I mean? You're already pushing your luck by not serving it in whole bird format,
+
+[39:02] right, Stars? Yep. Right. Now, I have done, uh, tubed, uh, Thanksgiving roles with stuffing in them, and they're good. And by the way, this is a good way to get actual stuffing on the inside of the bird if you should like that, which I do. It tastes delicious, even if it's microbiologically unsafe, because you can roll hot stuffing in and then do a cook right. Not with this protocol. There's safe ways to do it. you know, and I've done it. I have time to get into it now. I think your main problem here, if you're going to do a roast off, is that you're going to overcook the breast meat. This is why there's the fundamental inversion in this technique that you see also
+
+[39:37] interduckens in any situation like this. Dark meat should go on the outside. So instead of sausaging it, right, I would pound out the dark meat into a thin
+
+[39:51] layer and then roll the breast meat on the inside of it. That way, even if you're brining it, right? You don't, if you're going to do a roast off step, which by the way, by the way, other than
+
+[40:03] frying roasting is going to give you, yeah, roasting is going to give you good, good skin. So, but you're going to need to roast it for a lot longer and you're going to overcook the breast meat. I mean, pretty much. That's it, right? Another thing you can do is you could wrap a layer of pork sausage around the outside and then the skin around it. But I would use TG. But I would swap it up and I would have the dark meat on the outside because it can withstand the roasting comparatively better than the
+
+[40:27] breast meat can. Does that make sense then? Yeah. And then what? We already have to end. Yep. It's not even 50 yet. Well, what time do we have to leave? What time what time do we have to leave? Jack. Five minutes. Five minutes. All right. I'm going to rip through them. Brett wrote in about MSG. Hey, Davis, Dasi Jack, and everyone else who's there today. I have a question regarding MSG, but not the typical one worrying about bogus health concerns. Rather, I'm curious how to make the best use of it. Do you have any general tips or guidelines when it comes to cooking with MSG? Is MSG a universal augmenter of flavor? Are there particular types of foods and dishes where it really shines and others where it should be left off? How should I go about balancing it with the salt being used to season the dish? I look forward to your insight Thanks, love the show. Brett from Portland, Oregon. Okay, I typically, the thing with MSG is, if you add too much MSG, it's the same kind of feeling you get as when you add too much like seaweed or dashi, everything to me, and I've said this before on the show, starts taking on kind of a dashi kind of a note, I've used it in cocktails before, but really only in savory cocktails, and I found that it adds, it adds a savoriness to certain cocktails that you're like, ah,
+
+[41:36] that's nah, it's not good, right? But we did, I did a bitter melon cocktail that wanted a savory note and the MSG was good in it. That's what we did that thing that somebody dubbed Doritos Bitters at the MoFat event like a year ago. So, and things like cocktails. I mean, I think it has relatively limited application for things that are savory in foods. I mean, you just have to be careful that you don't want it to become a prevalent flavor. If it becomes a prevalent flavor, then you're overdoing it. I tend not to use it in the kitchen, except for when I'm making things like snack foods, but because they really, really need it. They need to get punched up by a little MSG. Uh, I mean, naturally, you probably could reduce the salt level little when you add MSG, which is why everyone's rushing to add, like,
+
+[42:21] like, good label, MSG substitutes when they're making low salt things. But like I said, I once had an Alfredo that was low sodium, Alfredo and I had other, you know, MSG like things, not sodium versions of
+
+[42:33] it, obviously, because they're trying to reduce the sodium. And to me, it tasted Asian. It tasted like dashi. So I'd just be careful of it that way, but don't be afraid to use it. You know, I would add small amounts of it because you don't want it to become noticeable or overwhelming. Noticeable MSG, I think, is more offensive than noticeable salt, right? What do you think, Stas? Yeah. Stas still thinks she's allergic to MSG, you think? Are you over that now? I'm over it Good, thank God. Jacob Farkas writes in about Citron. My name is Jacob Farkas. I emailed you last year about a molecular gastronomy class. I was teaching at the school I work for. You know how I feel about the term. That's fine. We're not going to get into it because I know the time. I was hoping to have the students visit Dave, but you mentioned that his lab was not a place for high school students. Definitely not, right, stars? Or anyone, really at this point. In any event, I have a question about infusing vodka with Citron using the nitrogen cavitation method, although remember, it doesn't use nitrogen. It uses nitrous oxide, and the shifting solubility of nitrous oxide, which is relatively soluble gas at relatively lower pressure. So I really prefer if people call it nitrous rather than nitrogen cavitation, which is a different kind of lab technique for rupturing cells.
+
+[43:33] Anyways. And I, you know, I had someone that kind of misunderstood the technique and was actually trying to measure cell rupture as a function of effectiveness
+
+[43:41] and infusion. I'm like, it's not it's not the same. Anyway, nitrous. Uh, I have a one liter whipping siphon. I would like to make a half to one liter of infused vodka. Can I use the method and what ratio of citron to vodka? and for how long should I let it infuse? Well, I haven't actually done that infusion before. So I can't give you specifics, but if you have a standard recipe that you like. In general, when you're doing rapid infusion. What's happening is, um, you are trying to pull less of the kind of bitter and detergenty nodes out of
+
+[44:11] the, um, out of peel, specifically in citrus, uh, like less of those kind of notes out. And so what you're gonna do is add a lot more than you would normally, and then use the rapid infusion to pull a lot of the top notes out. So I would say that if you have a typical infusion, It going to last, you know, a week or 2 weeks, uh, in a bottle, I would do 50% more
+
+[44:35] of um, 50 to 100% more of the Citron. And then I would do a rapid infusion with 2 or 3 chargers and I would do it for like 4 or 5 minutes, see how it
+
+[44:49] is. And if it needs to go, if it's not strong enough yet, then I would do another 4 to 5 minutes. Now, if it's too strong, then you're going to want to do like one minute, 2 minutes. A lot of my recipes are one or 2 minutes, especially on things that are extremely bitter, like coffee or chocolate. But the, you know, the thing with citrus is you want to ride that edge of where it takes on that ugly detergenty note. Now, bear in mind, I am not a fan of such beverages as Limoncello, and also bear in mind that every commercially available citron flavored vodka you have is flavored with essences and not with straight peels, right?
+
+[45:23] Yeah. So give it a shot. So what I would do is make a small batch remembering that you can't scale up and down. So but you can, of course, add more. So you could do a test batch with a small amount and then add more to that batch and re-hit it again without, without stuff. But if you, you know, what I typically will do is I'll make a smaller test batch and then I'll scale it up once and that'll get me close enough to what I'm doing that I can make a recipe that I can make again and again and again. Uh, okay. Uh, Philippe Lament wrote in, uh, book is finally coming out. So stoked. I have a sticky question for you. I'm trying to make an alcoholic ice cream for a Paco jet. I want to retain the raw alcohol taste. I've been using cognac and Calvados. Do you have any suggestions on ratios or stabilizers I can use to have a nice consistency? All right, so you're going to have to make a fluid gel with something like a geland to pump up the consistency of it because you're not going to get it frozen hard enough.
+
+[46:10] Typically for ice creams, that have a good, that don't melt down very much when they're warm, i.e. are going to have, you know, properties that you like. I like to do a half a percent, one half of one percent. 5 grams into a liter of something like Kelka Gel F. And that is going, that'll stabilize it. Remember, don't heat it with your alcohol because you want the raw alcohol taste, make a separate fluid gel, and then mix your alcohol in. Hopefully that's going to work for you. John Cherney, uh, painted his, it has a searsol, and he says it looks great because he painted his propane bottle gold because he
+
+[46:40] hated, uh, the green on the, uh, series. He dislikes the camping green color. So he sent us his pimped out gold sezol, right? So us. Uh, and then uh, LA Nassar, by the way, who said, thank you, rhymes with NASCAR, right?
+
+[46:54] wants to know about carbonating Opelvine. So Apelvine is like the higher alcohol version of apple cider where you dope with sugar to get the alcohol content of it
+
+[47:02] higher. wants to know whether or not I've done it. I haven't, but what I would recommend, he was going to do priming sugar, right? And bottle condition it, Ellie, what I would do is just get the liquid bread set up or use a soda stream, carbonate a small amount of it on your own right
+
+[47:16] now. and then taste it and see whether you like it. If you do, then you could try the sugar stuff to carbonate it, or you could just force carbonate it and call it, call it a day. Ross. That's going to do it. Ross, I'm going to read your story about Aruba next time because it goes also with King Inbert, Ken's story about how there's not enough good information for safety on SUV, which is an important
+
+[47:41] thing. I can't rush through it, so we'll get it next time, along with Daniel's questions from San Jose about rose petals. And that was cooking issues.
+
+[47:55] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or S podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit to donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market like no other market. A New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraternetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:37] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you late. Late! On Roberta, at Roberta's Pizzeria there. Ready for your network? In Bushwick. Brooklyn, calling your questions too, 718-497. What's the 497?, 2128? You got it. 718-497-2128. Uh, we are so late, in fact, that I'm going to have to, uh, well,
+
+[0:59] while I'm calling up the stuff. We can have some of the niceties, but we have no time for the normal niceties. We can't be nice today. No niceties. But we do have a caller who's been patiently waiting. Oh, geez. Caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, it's Michael Napkins. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing fantastic. How are you? All right. I hear you running late today. Yes. Yes, I am. But I'm sure you know that well enough to call in late and only have to wait a couple of minutes. Right. I've got the whole schedule figured out. No problem. I just wanted to let you know, I just got this cocktail book. I don't know if you heard about it yet, called Liquid Intelligence. Oh, I have heard of that. I hear it's terrible. Yeah, I'm actually I'm learning a lot from this book. It's fantastic. Yeah, there are as I think you point out a couple of other people. There are a couple of typos in it that we're going to fix for the next printing. There's just so many... There's so many Yeah, there's so many data points in it that, um, you know, for those of you that are listening, uh, like one of the Manhattan recipes, I think, Michael, you might have pointed this out along
+
+[1:59] with a, along with a couple other people. Like, a one just got dropped. So it says a fat 3 quarters of vermouth instead of one and 3 quarters, right? Is that you that playing that out? Yeah. Yeah. I did notice that. But you know what? My book has a millionaires, and you wouldn't believe the errata section from ours cuisine. So, you know, don't go bad. Yeah. Also, we had a weird thing where the, the, when they did the layout on one of the charts, like a bunch of the acid percentages got switched into just weird numbers.
+
+[2:25] Don't worry, people. We'll get it all fixed. But despite all that, you know, forget little details, man. This is a great book. I'm really, really enjoyed it. learning so much about like the details of how things chill and different kinds of textures and the different aspect ratios and
+
+[2:38] everything. My, uh, I've always been a kind of a seat of the pants cocktail maker, and I can see this is going to up my game considerably. Nice. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to, just wanted to say that because, uh, yeah, I'm really looking forward to working my way through the whole thing. All right, sweet, and, uh, you know, one of the things in the book that, um, you know, addressing in
+
+[2:58] the in the future is that, uh, currently our lime, uh, clarification technique that I use, you know, you wouldn't use it at home. You wouldn't use it if you didn't have a centrifuge. Or if you had a really good centrifuge, like, you know, when I say good, I mean, you know, upwards of 40,000
+
+[3:14] G's or something like this. Um, you know, you could clarify lime juice without any of the clarification aids that I
+
+[3:20] use. But I think one of the things for research may maybe you can look into it. Uh, is uh, this uh, fungal kaida sand. The, because the one thing that we use, it's not vegetarian, is this
+
+[3:32] kaida sand, which is derived from shrimp cells. non-allergenic. I'm not worried about it from a seafood allergy standpoint. And it is spun out, so it's not in the product that people are consuming, but it is a processing aid that we're using that's of animal origin.
+
+[3:44] And I'd like to be able to get rid of it. So that's like one of the, that's, you know, because I think I might mention somewhere in, I can't remember because it's a long book, but, uh, and I've said it on the air many
+
+[3:53] times, is that I think it's entirely fair for, you know, a vegetarian to assume that they can not worry about the cocktail menu unless, you know, unless it obviously
+
+[4:04] stays something of animal origin, you know? Right, right, right. Although, isn't that the case with some wine finding agents, too? Oh, yeah, but the issue with wine finding agents, no one tells you what they're using. So, you know, Kaidasan is used as a wine finding agent. Right. And, you know, there's, I've always put this in the category of things, I'm not going to worry about too much, but you're right. I probably wouldn't use it myself. Right. Right. Right. That's the thing. So there's a, you know, it's like I've always said, like everyone's drawing a line, right? I mean, you pay taxes to people that eat meat all the time. We, you know, we pay tax. I'm sure like many of the people that, you know, we hire in the government are, you know, not just
+
+[4:39] meat eaters, but like actual bad people, like, you know, torturers, murderers of people, like, you know, mutilators of animals, all kinds of horrible stuff.
+
+[4:47] So it's like a question of like, well, yeah, it's a question of where's the line, you know what I mean? And, like, what, but, you know, it's, I think it's always good to push, uh, I think it's always good to push as far as you
+
+[4:58] can in, you know, in a direction. You always learn, more you push, the more you learn. That makes sense to me. So do you have any ideas of things that can be used instead? Okay, the sign for the line? Well, there is in the, in the, in the EU, there is a, um, a fungally derived
+
+[5:13] kitisan, and we got a sample of it at the bar, but it was one of those things where I didn't have time to run the test myself, and it fell through the
+
+[5:22] cracks, like no one was able to come up with a good protocol for it. It comes in powdered form. And you know, everyone was used to using the solution, the kite of sand solution. So, you know, and I don't know that it's, you know, fully available here in
+
+[5:34] the US, but there's no reason why Kaida San can't be fungally produced. And I think that, you know, with the increasing number of people that want, you know, full disclosure of the processing aids that are used in
+
+[5:47] things that you'll see more of a switch towards it. Because I think just in general, regardless of, you know, regardless of anything, people are like, ah, shrimp shells, you know what I mean? Right. Well, and that latest Lucky Peach pointed out, the shrimp industry is a royal mess, so you know, getting away from that would be good anyhow. Oh, were they talking about the slavery in Thailand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, you know, that 1st came to my attention. I don't know, a couple of months ago, and I was like, I can't believe it. I can't believe it, you know? It's disgusting. Yeah. Well, it just goes to show the more the more you investigate, the worst things are in general, right? This is true. sometimes you don't want to know. Is the clarified lime juice freeze well? No. What about an cryogenic freach? Oh, I've never tried. Like, uh, like actually, like, completely immobilize it, like subbutectic, uh, freezing. Yeah, yeah, we have a ridiculous freezer here. Why don't you try it and tell me? Okay. Yeah, we'll do it because we got the we got a big bad centrifuge in a nice freezer. So yeah, I'll give that a shot. I would freeze it as rapidly as possible so you don't have so you don't have increased concentration effects as it's freezing down. Right, right. If we put stuff flat in a bag and throw it in that freezer, man, it freezes very rapidly. Yeah, let me know. So what I typically do, or now, I've just started doing it with the leftover Clary lime because we have a lot of it, is I sugar it and heat it with a little lime peel and
+
+[7:15] turn, just turn it into a cordial. then it's delicious. Oh, that sounds good too. Yeah. And so it's, you know, it's a cordial that, like, is already clarified. And so you can use it in, you know, stirred drinks for a cordial flavor. And it's quite good because, you know, once you heat it and, you know, once you take old lime juice or sugar and you heat it, then it goes from being that awful old lime juice to being something different, you
+
+[7:37] know? Right, right, right. That makes sense. Sounds amazing. Well, listen, I want to take up your whole show, but great talking to you. Congrats on the book, man. Thanks a lot. next time you're out on this coast. Stop by and see us. I would never miss a chance. All right, bye. Alright, thanks. Bye bye. So we do have one more caller that was waiting. All right, all right, sweet sweet. Call her. are on the air. Hey, David, Stewart from Silver Spring, Maryland. How are you? Hey, doing all right. up? Well, 1st of all, I want to, you know, just echo the last caller. Focus fantastic. You know, went through it pretty quickly. Uh, just a wealth of information there, and it was just, I think one of the things that surprised me the most was just how well, you know, your
+
+[8:15] voice, which I know from, from the radio show came through just amazingly through the book. Like I was, I found myself bursting out laughing in distant sections. So it's just a... Hopefully it wasn't a serious section. Hopefully it wasn't like the section where you were laughing at how like poorly the recipe was going, but... Some of that, some of that. But one complaint that I do have is that you really did tease us with the red hot poker and then you're like, well, I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
+
+[8:39] Well, I mean, look, I mean, the issue with the, I mean, I,
+
+[8:45] I, you know, I can tell anyone how to make it. You know, I can, I could, I don't have it at my fingertips right now, but you know, I'm never going to sell them. So, you know, I have no problem telling people how they're made, except for it's, you know, inherently, you know, if you can weld, you know, and if you can, you know, purchase stuff with a credit card off McMaster Car, you can buy everything, everything that you need for it, you can buy on McMasterCar's website, uh, other than... Yeah, I just figured it
+
+[9:13] was, it was some crazy, uh, you know, legal liability to put those instructions in the book as well. Well, and, I mean, you know, there's it's already 100,000 words as it is. And like, you know, I, you know, I, I don't, what I do explain. I don't pull any punches on it. So, like, if I was going to go into like a full detail, there would be, you know, I'd have to tell you, like, you know, what to look out for when you're welding, like, you know, what wattages to look out for, like, you know, issues I have with different kind of cartridge heaters, um, because it's basically just a high temperature cartridge
+
+[9:43] heater. And I've tried, you know, many dozens of different wattages and
+
+[9:47] lengths and diameters. And I've come up with the one that, you know, can, uh, run, you know, without blowing itself out in the open air because every, every,
+
+[9:59] anytime you use a heater that's powerful enough uh, to burn itself out and try to control it, the control invariably fails with all the thermal cycling.
+
+[10:09] And when the control fails, it always over, it always fails in the direction of getting too hot and then the thing burns out, sometimes spectacularly. So, you know, yeah, so, you know, I can give all this stuff, but then also there's like, you know, there's the, you know, you
+
+[10:25] got to insulate it right when you're wrapping it, you got to weld it right, grind it down. I mean, it's not, none of it's rocket science, you know, like I, you know, back when. It's a lot more work than you kind of mentioned in the book, so we can we said that, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, again, if someone wants it, you know, like next week, if you, you know, put the question in or whatever, I can, I can give you the part numbers.
+
+[10:45] Uh, and in fact, I'm going to be I'm going to be making a batch, you know, someone stole our welder, and as soon as we get a welder back in,
+
+[10:54] in, uh, in the shop, I'm going to, I'm going to have to make a batch for this year's red hot pokers. Maybe I'll take some pictures of the process. So I have some actual questions though, just on a couple of things. Um, I was going to ask, uh, you know, similarly about the kitasan. I do keep kosher. So, you know, you mentioned the fungal in the book, but I heard your answers. It seems like there's really not a good alternative at this point. What I was just thinking right now is that I would reach out to maybe some kosher winemakers and see what they use for wine
+
+[11:20] planning agents. Yeah. Um, and, you know, come up with that. Um, the other thing for the uh, the clarified grapefruit juice. I bought a home carbonation rig, I'm going to be making the gin and juice this weekend. How long, I know you mentioned with the lime juice. It doesn't really keep very well. You find the same thing with the grapefice juice as well. No, I would just say like the maximum... Yeah, clarify grapefruit juice, it keeps fairly well. So, you know, I think, you know, a couple of days is not going to be a problem. Are you going to do agar or free thaw? Agger. Okay. I mean, but Agar, what I meant is quick, quick Agar or free saw? Well, which would you recommend? I could do either one If you're going to use it right away, you can do quick, but Nastasia hates doing the quick, right?
+
+[12:05] She hates it. It's like one of the things that she refuses to ever do again. Uh, you know, if you're practiced with quick, the good thing about quick, because it's quick. I typically reserve quick clarification for things like lime and lemon that can't sit
+
+[12:18] around or if I only need a small amount. Like if you only need like, you know, half a liter,
+
+[12:24] then, you know, quick is fine. And because if you lose 250 mils, it's not a big deal. If you're trying to make like 2 gallons of it, You know what I mean? Then quick Agar becomes a bit a little bit of a pain in the butt. And then I would move to freestyle. With freeze thaw, you're gonna have, you know, probably a higher yield, less overall work time, even though it takes longer to do.
+
+[12:44] Uh, and, um, there was another. Oh, yes, and the quick one will eventually, well, the next day, we'll throw a cloud off. So usually if you're going to do quick, do it the day you're going to use it. You know what I mean? You can you can resettle out the cloud, but you know, there will be some agar that's left in the uh, in the, in the liquid that'll then kind of stick together uh, overnight to form kind of cloudiness. So, you know, I would say that, but remember, the free saw takes a couple of days, so you have to start, you know, soon. Okay, yeah, no, because I was doing for dinner on Sunday. So actually, now it sounds like a free sauce, a better method. Um, if I can ask you one more question, it's, uh, um, the, you had a little sidebar in there about eutectic freezing, and tries, I might understand, you know,
+
+[13:32] the principal behind, I actually asked, uh, my brother, who's a chemical engineer and brother-in-law also, and uh, we weren't really sure what was going on there. don't know if you can take a minute to kind of expound on that. Sure. So, um, the, there's a concentration for, uh, you know, all salts in in water where, um,
+
+[13:53] they, there, it kind of thaws, like a, um, like a unitary substance, like water, right?
+
+[14:01] And so it's the point at which, uh, you know, the point at which that happens and the temperature at which that happens. So typically when you're using a eutectic freezing plate, they'll choose the temperature of the plate based on
+
+[14:12] the salts that they put into it, right? And then it freezes and thaws at that concentration. So if you have, if you have less salt, let's say, of whatever salt you're going to choose in your liquid,
+
+[14:26] what'll happen is you'll start crystallizing pure water out, right? You'll then kind of reach the eutectic solution and then it'll start freezing as a solid there. I think that's how it'll work. And then it'll thaw out. Whereas if you start with the percentage, uh, you know, with that kind
+
+[14:42] of, like, you know, magic percentage of, um, of salt in it, uh, it will stay liquid and then freeze at
+
+[14:50] its, at whatever its temper, eutectic, freezing temperature is and then freeze solid. And then as it thaws, it will do the same at the same temperature. So there won't be any temperature drift during the uh, during the freezing and thawing cycle. So it'll... Okay, so it's all about the uniformity of the solution kind of as it's freezing into one thing. Right. So what you don't want to have happen is you don't want to, uh, you don't want, so normally if you just use salt and ice, right, eventually as the
+
+[15:21] salt, as the, as it starts diluting down, the temperature's going to start rising, right? Or conversely, sometimes, you know, if the brine concentration increases because more salt dissolves into it, your temperature can drop. is that, like, you know, like, there's, like, it can go either way. So by using this kind of like, you know, these magic ratios, you can have it act like a pure substance,
+
+[15:43] uh, typically the the specific, uh, the uh, heat of fusion is not as great, I think. I'd have to look back. It's not as great as it would be in a pure water solution, but you still have that kind of constant temperature. And this is used commercially all the time for things like trucks where they'll throw like large plates into a huge, you know, walk in freezer for several days and then throw the plates into a truck or into like a, you know, an ice cream cooler case and then they'll go around and they can keep it, you know, at perfect dipping temperature or storage temperature, whatever they want.
+
+[16:14] I got you. I got you. Okay that makes a lot more sense. All right. All right. Thanks a lot, Dave. All right, thank you. Hey, Jack, I know we only have 5 minutes. You want, you want to do the, you want to, whoever's paid for this episode. You want them to put it up real quick? What's that Oh, we got, we can keep going. We'll put the ad in later. Oh, I like that. It's like to the live listeners to like, nah, whatever. We'll put it in later. We'll put it in later. Nice. By the way, Stas, you want to announce what's going to happen with Amazon later? No, I don't really want to. Okay, because someone called in Quinn Dupont. I was supposed to talk about searing techniques with the series on the radio show. So, uh, searing techniques with the Sears all. All right, I think, you know, in reading the reviews of people that are using it. I think the prime thing, if you think that it's too slow, right? You want to get the sears all much closer to the surface of what you're doing. Uh, the exceptions or thing, things that are dry, like breads go from, like, kind of, you know, uh, totally blonde and they can start burning very quickly because there's not a lot of liquids to moderate it. So those things you have to be a little more careful with. Uh, and so typically breads, I'll hold, waste, waste assist us. Was that, like, 2.5 inches, 3 inches? But about that far away, and I'll move it around. And you can actually, I mean, I shouldn't say this. You can actually like hold things and like manipulate. you know, it's very, you don't have to kind of worry about it. But things like, uh, cheese
+
+[17:40] also usually. Okay, I'll give you this because I'm gonna have to go to another question. Here's what I usually do. I get it down fairly close. I do tiny little circles and I wait for to start seeing sizzle or bubble or
+
+[17:52] movement. And then I'll move away from it and I'll start it in another zone. And by the time I started getting bubbling in a 2nd zone, I could start moving it back and forth like a welder, kind of creating a puddle, not like a puddle, but like kind of creating a zone of
+
+[18:08] searing, just like a welder can when you're moving a MIG welder or an arc welder back and forth by, you know, melting the rod in and forming a puddle.
+
+[18:15] And by doing that, you can keep a relatively large area in kind of fine searing fashion. So, uh, and it's a lot more effective than like hitting and stopping and, you know, moving, you know, moving too quickly, for instance. So the general rule of thumb is, is that for something the size of like a ribsteak, you're going to want to do about a minute,
+
+[18:35] minute, minute and a half per side. Cheese, typically, I'll go really close till it starts bubbling. I pull back a little bit, zip around, and let's say I'm doing like 5 burgers. I'll hit one really hard, go, hit the next one, and then like start moving around until I'm moving around and I'm constantly hitting each one for, you know, a couple of seconds until they're until they're all
+
+[18:55] cooked. You're going to get a better crust in terms of like tac, tac, tac, crust on
+
+[19:01] something by hitting it a couple times and letting it rest a little bit in between. So if you're doing like 3 or 4 steaks, it's a good idea to kind of not do one all the way to the
+
+[19:13] finish and then do the next one all the way to finish, but keep them all little, you know, you know, don't have them
+
+[19:18] to stop entirely, but hit and then come back to, you know, the same one at least twice.
+
+[19:23] I find that's the kind of going to give the best question. Yes? Yeah, all right. And I can give more, you know, more what's it called if anyone wants to know. Okay. Philippe Lament wrote in, your book is finally coming out, so stoked. Thank you. I have a sticky question for you. I trying to make an alcoholic ice cream for Paco Jet. I want to retain the raw alcohol taste. I been using cognac and calvados. Do you like Calvados or Calvados? How do you pronounce it? So I was like, I don't care. don't drink that stuff. Do you like that stuff? I don't think I ever had it. No? You know, the apple brandy? Oh, yeah. No, it's okay? Okay. Yeah. She's like, they don't make it in Italy or Switzerland, so I don't drink. I don't drink it. I don't drink it. Uh, so anyway, um, Do you have any suggestions on ratios or stabilizers I can use to have
+
+[20:08] a nice consistency? Thank you. Uh, okay, so what I would do is uh, I would do what I always do when I want something to not. I mean, obviously for those of you that like, I don't know, you're zoning out because I'm speaking too quickly or whatever, the problem here
+
+[20:20] is obviously you add too much liquor, you affect the texture. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. So, uh, you don't want to, like, one solution, which is the wrong solution, and you can't do it in
+
+[20:29] apocalypse anyway, so it doesn't matter. I guess you could. If to freeze it much colder than you normally would in apocalypse. But this is not going to work because when alcoholic stuff melts out, it typically melts out in a weird way. So, unlike typical sorbets, they have relatively nice melt profile over alcohol, sorbets, they just blast out on you. You know what I mean? You've seen that happen, right? It's not nice. So what I would do is cheat in the same way that I always cheat and I would make a gelan fluid gel with the alcohol. So I would make a portion of the sorbet base kind of normal and then create a gel and fluid
+
+[20:58] gel that, and you want, I would say, total sorbet. Total sorbet. I would go in the ratio of like no more than half a percent, and that will never melt. So you can spin it and it'll stay like the texture of, I mean, it won't melt. It will stay like the texture of just melted sorbet on the surface of the sorbet, but it'll hold its shape. So, in other words, like whatever it is, whatever your liquid base is, in it, don't
+
+[21:26] forget, forget the salads because my recipe doesn't work on that, but whatever the liquid base is, half a percent. Remember, you're going to have to boil that, and then you can temper stuff into it, let it chill
+
+[21:35] into, and then blend it into a fluid gel, and then spin it in the pocket jet, and that should work, and it'll be super creamy.
+
+[21:42] You might have to up your flavors a little bit because half a percent of Calco Joe LFF, which is low acyl gelan, is quite a lot and will mask the flavor somewhat, but it'll be smooth and creamy.
+
+[21:52] Right? Do you like things that are smooth and creamy? Yeah. But you don't like when people describe them as movie, baby. Come on, dude. All right, right, right, right. Uh, okay, got a story in from uh, Ross and Aruba. and I wanted us to read this on the air. And I might have to read it quickly because, you know, I'm late. Thanks for your help. I look forward to getting the 2 series off. I hope you better already have them. He does. All right, good. As a home cook, I've been coming, and by the way, I like home cook, cook, cook, a lot of honor in cooking, cook,
+
+[22:23] cook, cook, cook. As a home cook, I've become enthralled with sous vide cooking in a nova circulator, low temperature, I'm sure. I'm amazed with its ease and convenience. At last, chicken steaks and other meats cooked to desired level of doneness. Yes, that is a word, by the way, without fail. We've become so attached to sous vide cooking that we took the Anova circulator on a budget vacation to Aruba. bought a $5 plastic bucket at a local grocery store and we were cooking. We took zippies with us because we weren't sure about their availability. By the way, were they available? Could you get the ziplocs? Uh, and remember, people, don't buy the cheap ziplocs because remember, Styles, we have that problem with the cheap ziplocs. Do not buy it by the freezer ones, the freezer ones. We were doing an event the other day, and they were leaking and how put your angry face on. All right. Anyway, because we weren't sure about their availability. We had steaks that could compete, that could compete with those available at Aruba's high-end restaurants. Before we went to the beach or bar. We pop the meat in the bags, and they'd be ready when we got back to our apartment. More importantly, if we wanted to do some more snorkeling or have another drink, we could. We didn't have to rush back and tend to the cooking, which is a good point. If you're snorkeling. By the way, I don't know about the safety of snorkeling and drinking. I'm sure you were drinking responsibly while you're snorkeling. Uh, but yes, uh, definitely, you know, if you're under the water and that, you know, looking around at all the awesome sea life and you lose track of
+
+[23:42] time. A normal steak would be ruined, right? Right. Yeah. Anyway, we didn't have to rush back to tend to the cooking and the food stayed fine and didn't overcook in the circulator. Now we want to try the Sears all at home, not on vacation. Airline security folks may have qualms about such a device. Thank you for your help. Uh, regards, uh, Ross. Now, listen, Russ, I bring the Sears all with me all the time, all the time on the airport. And occasionally people are like, what is this? And I go, um, it is a cooking device. And they were like, oh. But I unscrew it from the torch, and I bring the torch separately, and they look at it a couple times, look at it. I also bring red hot pokers with me. I always bring those things. You can bring them in check luggage, obviously, but then they're going to search your luggage. But I bring them in my carry-on because I never bring check luggage to demos because I've had them not show up and then you don't have a demo. So I plan demos around being able to bring stuff in my carry-on. Uh, so you can do it. But good luck with the home use this ears. Let us know how it works. And then how many minutes we got, Jack? Under five. Under five. Okay. All right, let me, let me, let me hit this quick. Is next week Thanksgiving or the week after? A week after? Okay, so Antoine, I'm going to get your brine in question on birds because I'm assuming that's for that's for Thanksgiving. I'm going to get that next week as well as Lee Crawford's explanation of, by the way, wrote in about Julia Child and went back and watched her old black and white shows. That was from Gene. Oh, that was from Gene? G-E-A-N-N-E. How do you say that? G? G? G? G? Anyways, from Gene, not familiar. Anyway, I went back and watched that episode, which is one of the reasons I'm a little bit late without generation. holy crap. I, you know, you forget what a badass Julia child is. You know what I mean? You forget, and then you watch it. She might have been a little drunk. I'm not sure. I mean, I know that's like whatever, that's the stereo, you know, that's her, like, you know, that's her shtick. like she did that way before Hoda and Kathy Lee. you know what I'm saying? Uh, or, I don't know, maybe the same time as Dean Martin did the kind of like, you know, kind of a little bit tipsy thing. you know what I mean? Uh, but such just is such an intense badass. I'm going to go back and now you've ruined me. I have to go back and, and, you know, read all those. So we'll get that. I'm going to hit really quickly. Daniel from San Jose wrote him out at rose pedals. I've been making candy rose petals the classic way by coating the rose petals in a thin layer of egg white, dipping them in sugar, and then leaving them out to dry. My problem I was to be able to finally chop them for use in a plated dessert, but the egg white sugar always flakes apart from the dried rose petal when it's chopped.
+
+[26:13] Is there any way I can modify the prep so I can drop the candied rose petals without them flaking apart? Thanks. You know, I never tried it, but you know, the problem is you don't want to heat them. That's the issue. You know, Johnny Zini used to do a thing where he would dip them in simple syrup and lay them out on a paper towel to drive after he dusted them with sugar. But I think the key is maybe let them have, the egg white is going to be a problem because the proteins are gonna, are gonna, you know, kind of crunch up on you. But I think if you let them go demi sick, as they say, you know, like half dry and then chop them and then let them finish out
+
+[26:42] after after that, if you can stop them from, the problem is you, they're gonna gum up. So you're going to have to sit there and individually chop each rose petal like into a, you know, you can't even do a shift
+
+[26:52] not because you can't roll it. It'll stick, right? I don't know. It's problematic. But I don't know. I try to think of a surefire. Maybe try Johnny's way instead of with the egg white, maybe it'll work. Now. Um, as for other things, I'm not going to get to in time. Let me see. Uh, Uriel and your milk powder, he's talking about milk powder and my yard for browning and meats. I going to get that later. And also Alex's bear. We didn't like our bear, but I'm going to research more about bear. If you have a young bear, then it's you're going to be better off. Um, but I'll look more into Cooking Bear. The one time that we cooked bears. Did you even taste this sauce? Nice, don't think I tasted it better. It is terrible. Uh, but again, uh, young, young one is young bear is uh, good. Also, David, with your lemon sorbet question, I'll catch you next time because it is it's not a problem. I could do it. And I just have too many questions to answer, but I'm going to, I, I, I miss Ken, Ken
+
+[27:46] Ingberg's, uh, uh, what do you call it a diatribe? Yeah. All right. I think he would, I think he would fairly call it a diatribe. So I'll read that really quickly, and then we can discuss it later if people have more questions on it. Okay. Um, Dave and the Hammer by extension, if not conspiracy, have been champions of low temperature and sous vide cooking. When you started this campaign on the radio, This was still pretty exotic, requiring either relatively expensive equipment or internet hacks and only a small cadre of enthusiasts would employ. That has changed, not only because of the promotion of low temp and SUV by us and others, but because Sous
+
+[28:19] vide Supreme was successful in the mainstream, and the cost of an immersion circulators come way down. I backed the Nomiku, which works well. I assume, uh, this is harsh. I assume Bam's venture, Bam, is we pop soupy pot, uh, who, you know, one of the founders
+
+[28:32] of, uh, I assume Bam's Venture will not survive because since they have started, poly-science has come down in price and both the San
+
+[28:38] Serenay Nova are better rated and available for $200. By the way, there's a new Nomiku coming out, so, you know, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't, what's it called? I don't play favorites in the in the circulator market because I'm friends with a lot of these folks, but don't count anyone out yet. And then he goes, bad news for Bam, but great news for consumers. Ouch. An emergency circulator is now a little pricey for an impulse purchase, but clearly inexpensive enough to be a regular consumer product. But the information and education provided by cooking issues and the like are not as available as the products are. Take me as an example. I am not a typical consumer. I listen to cooking issues. I have books by McGee and Keller on my night table, on your night table. I'm going to tell Harold about that. And do plenty of research. Hell, I've even read a Hasset plan. Yet with all my attention, devotion, I understand the safety issues there. I understand the safety issues that are so widely mentioned very poorly. For various reasons, mostly in abundance of caution. I've almost invariably prepared low temperature meals by reaching pasteurization, and I use
+
+[29:31] the quick chill method for storing. But even I don't really understand this. If I am researching pasteurization temp and time. How could this be a big danger I keep hearing about? With conventional cooking, you leave food in pots while you eat. You leave it out on the counter to cool and you put it in the fridge all the while in the danger zone. If the contents of the low temp bag are pasteurized, why isn't that close to canning? It's not close to canning. It's not because you're not killing the sports. But anyway, why isn't that close to canning giving me a much wider margin of safety than ordinary prepared food?
+
+[29:56] It is, but, you know, I'm not going to have time to discuss it, but it is. Anyway, if the bag's contents are pasteurized, I would find it plausible to conclude that it'll be perfectly safe to throw it in the fridge without a quick chill ice bath. This was asked by someone on the air quite a while ago. Dave, in my opinion, did not catch the drift of the question and did not answer it. This came to heaven considering fish. Chef Steps promoted a combination salting in the danger zone and cooking for salmon that was declared safe. And Chris Young did a challenge test on it, which is how they figured out it was safe. Fine for that specific chef step preparation, but you see plenty of examples of cooking fish well below 130 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[30:29] Even the amusing hot water tap method. I don't want to cook all fish to pasteurization all the time. In fact, I never do. Me personally, Dave. And I want to experiment with textures and the like. How safe is that? What about killing fish parasites? Um, so, look it. And he says, it seems to me the availability of low temp equipment is far outpacing the consumer understanding capability. If there's really a serious danger associated with low temperature and SUV cooking, as I've heard repeatedly, then I would say there would be a whole lot of illness arising from this technique at home in the coming years, best regards
+
+[30:55] can. Look, this is complicated, and part of the fact is, is that we're never going to come out and tell, like, no one is going to come out and say with a relatively new thing, something that, you know, might get someone sick, even though we all know that people get sick from cooking all of the
+
+[31:10] time. So next time when I get back, I'm going to just have Stas and I maybe if she wants to. She won't. She doesn't want it. just have like a discussion. Maybe we can get someone on. I don't know. we can get someone on. and we'll just hash out the food safety stuff. My opinion as a cook versus someone who's more, you know, into food safety, their opinion as
+
+[31:29] a food safety expert, because we're coming from different points of view. We have different acceptable levels of risk. And the acceptable level of risk, typically in pasturization levels, is one of supermarket
+
+[31:39] morons walking home with a product in an abused situation, not as someone who's like cooking for their own use at
+
+[31:45] home, who has more control over their raw ingredients. So I think, like, there are different standards of risk, different standards of what we think the inputs into the cooking are, and those are leading to a lot of
+
+[31:55] confusion, but maybe we can get someone on next week and hash it out. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Nice. All right, we'll try and get them and that'll be next week on the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[32:14] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member. visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the
+
+[0:05] soil, and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. This is Mitchell Davis, host of TasteMatters. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:35] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live and relatively on time,
+
+[0:41] Reverse Pizzeria and the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. So proud of you, man. It's actually 12 on the dot when you walked in. Right? I mean, I know we're supposed to start at 12, which means, you know, I should be here like, you know, like 1155 and stuff, but come on. Baby steps, baby, baby steps. We just made the table who's sitting by the window. Get up and move. They weren't ready to leave. They heard the scream. They heard the scream and they're like, you know, I think they're practicing some sort of musical vibe out there anyway because I saw some air strummage. Well, there was some air strummage. And so maybe I was like harshing their mellow and they were talking about whatever kind of folk hipster rock they were working on over there.
+
+[1:14] Not that I'm against folk hipster rock. Wide, are you a fan of folk, folk hipster rock? Yeah. Yeah? See? Well, you know, gotta be around here. I said, totally. Yeah. No, it's good. I mean look, come on. It's a good genre. It's a good genre, but listen, we have Douglas Baldwin, mathematics professor and the man behind the sous vide kill curves in
+
+[1:32] modernist cuisine. It's going to call in, what do you say, around noon 15 says? You still have your coat on. I know it's freezing here. It's not, it's not, like, cold in the studio. aren't you going to start sweating? Maybe. Don't you sweat? Do you not sweat? Do you not have pullers? Dave, don't you remember the days where Stas had like 5 space heaters pointed at her in her seat in the studio? That's true But it's not like that here is it? Never warm enough. But, you know, I feel that, like, you know, we've we've overcome that and that it's, you know, fine in the studio here. There's not a problem. Anyways. All right, so listen, stay tuned for the, uh, I mean, other words, like, if you happen to be listening live, don't, you know, tune out and be like, nothing interesting is going to happen
+
+[2:09] in this because we're going to have, like, discussions of food safety. This is all relating, by the way, to King Ken. Why do I say king? Ken Ingbers, kind of, not question really, but kind of a statement that there's a lot of conflicting and not really kind of useful information out there about safety and low temperature cooking.
+
+[2:24] And, you know, I have my theories, but why don't we have a discussion with Douglas Ballin, right? Yep. Right. Okay. All right. I'll hit right in with some questions before that happens. Antoine wrote in a couple of weeks ago. Who knows? I can't keep track because we're so far behind on questions about brining. Hello, Nastasia, Dave, and Jack, and why I'm going to throw wide into that. I'm not going to throw them under the bus. throw them into the mix. Uh, it's Antoine from Boca Raton, Florida. Uh, craft beer bartender, turn cold press juice bartender. Remember that discussion? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cold pressure juice. All right. By the way, I've never used a Norwalk. I not going to get into it. Stop. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I went to Booker and Dax about a month ago and it blew my mind. Nice. I also managed to get a table at WD 50 while they was there that night and came up to our table and I was starstruck and incapable of speaking with him. Well, you know, if you have anything you want me to relate to him, you know, just tell me I'll relate next time I see him. Uh, just wanted to let you know, I greatly enjoy myself, and I was glad I got to go to both of those establishments. You know, WD is coming into its last month. I'm going on the 30th. Is that the last day? I'm going on the last day. Yeah. I don't know. when the last day... Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be a blast. Well, you know, the cool thing is that Wiley's book is going to be a WD 50 book. You know we have to eat tonight, right? Well, yeah, but, you know, most people here aren't going to really care where, like, we have to go to dinner
+
+[3:40] tonight means, okay, not Jermaine. Like, I apologize, people. You were not invited to the same party. We never go off on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's tangents, Nastasia. And then there's tangents that relate to things that other people can they can't relate to where we're going to go to dinner. That doesn't make any sense. Anyways. Uh, okay, my question is, I'm going to deep fry my Thanksgiving turkey. You ever see how the public service message is where people ignite their houses when they're deep frying the turkey? No. Yeah, so what happens is that you heat up a giant thing of oil, right? On this giant fryer, and then you stick something that has too much water into it. The water instantly boils, volatilizes a bunch of oil droplets, right? So you put your turkey with too much water on it in there. The oil has been overheated, instantly it goes and like water boils out, sprays a fine mist of oil droplets in the air that are very close to the ignition temperature of the oil, and then a flame looking up over the sides, ignites one or 2 of
+
+[4:36] those, and you have a giant turkey fireball, which, you know, not recommended procedure.
+
+[4:42] But Antoine's not going to do that. anyway. Uh, I want to brine, uh, my turkey with a beer brine beforehand. However, the recipe calls for submerging it in a brine bath. Instead, I wish to inject it, as I've been told it is a superior form of brining. My conundrum is that I don't know what ratio of salt I should include or how I should alter it. I have attached the recipe. I'm probably going to be doing an 11.5 to 13.5 kilogram turkey. And by the way, turkeys, being an American bird, should only be roasted in pounds, my friend. I'm just kidding. I just kidding. You know, you can do whatever you want. I normally think in kilograms too, but right, turkeys, turkeys are never
+
+[5:17] specking kilograms because they're not European, right? Right. Yeah. I don't know. do you think, Jack? I'm going to have to support you on that one. Yeah, yeah. No offense to the European listeners, or not European, worldwide listeners. No offense to everyone other than us. But with the same go for like a European animal, I guess,
+
+[5:35] or, you know? No, I'm just saying, it's like, it's like, we dress for the weather here in the US, even, even though I cook in Celsius, like with low temperature stuff, when I'm doing oven work or deep frying work, I cook in Fahrenheit and I dress based on
+
+[5:50] Fahrenheit. I don't like, hey, it's 20 Celsius outside. What does that mean? It means nothing. You know what I mean? It means nothing to me. Whereas, you know, give me the exact temperature in Fahrenheit. I'm like, oh I get it. I got it. You know what I mean? So, I don't know, it's just something when something is very American, like a turkey. I like, you know, I revert to my kind of old school brought up American ways. That's all. Fair. Yeah. Um, I would also like to hear your recommendations for any other Brian solutions you liked or thought were noteworthy. Happy Thanksgiving. Shalom, adios, and keep on rocking in the free world. Uh, okay, well, the, uh, unfortunately, I accidentally didn't paste and copy, paste the recipe in, but I'll tell you roughly how I do it. So when you're soaking a bird or if you're dry salting it, right? You typically make a concentrated salt solution, and some of it's absorbed in, and most of it's not, you throw the rest away. When you're doing a brine pump, right? And by the way, that's the only way the flavor of the things like beer is
+
+[6:47] going to really permeate, because otherwise it would just be on the surface of the bird anyway. Although, you know what, I had an interesting phenomenon. Later day I was roasting a chicken. You know how when you roast a chicken, you stuff the cavity with herbs and like maybe like a citrus, like a couple lemon wedges
+
+[6:59] of lime wedge and the whole damn thing, like taste of the herb and the lime wedge? Like, why is that? When you're brining with it, that's not the case. But when you cook it, somehow, you know what I'm talking about? And then my wife asked me, she's like, how does that work? I was like, you know what? I have no idea. I have no idea why that works. Weird, right? Anyway. So anyways, and again, I refer you for brining to the genuine ideas blog, which is done
+
+[7:25] by, what's his name, Greg Blonder, and he's done to the best of my sleuthing the kind of greatest body of work on the specifics of brine
+
+[7:34] penetration. Uh, it's kind of a gross word. Anyway, when you're injecting, it's a totally different game. When you're injecting what you do is this. You calculate what percentage salt you want in the finished thing. right? Then you calculate what percent. Well, first, actually, you calculate what percentage you're gonna pump to. So, like, for instance, like, you could pump anywhere between, like, you know, 5 and 15% of the weight of an item with
+
+[8:04] a brine, right? So you choose kind of what, how much like liquid you're going to jack into this sucker, right? And so a lot of people like Kenji Alt Lopez doesn't like Brian because he figures that you're injecting kind of non-flavorful things and blah, blah,
+
+[8:17] blah, and it's going to leak out anyway. But, you know, if you're going to inject a flavorful thing, there you go. So usually, um, you know, it doesn't make too much sense to pump
+
+[8:25] it over the increased water holding capacity of the thing anyway. So, you know, you're not pumping it because you want to sell a higher weight product, you're pumping for
+
+[8:33] flavors, so you might want to be on the lower end of the pumping spectrum somewhere like five, 8% of the weight, maybe 10 up, maybe up to
+
+[8:39] 10. wouldn't go over 10. Anyways. So then you calculate, like, what percentage of the animal bird, in this case, weight, you're going to inject into it. Then you calculate what you want, the finished saw content of the bird to be. So let's say you want uh, like a percent salt in the thing. Well, then you calculate the weight of the liquid you're going to inject into it plus the weight of the bird, subtract out some sort of like idea for the weight of the bones because you're not going to count that
+
+[9:07] stuff. Add that much salt to the weight of liquid that you're going to put in uh, and make that liquid, whatever you want. Uh, if you're going to add sugar or whatnot. inject it, try to inject it all around the bird to get it, you know, roughly everywhere, then let it sit for a while to
+
+[9:20] equilibrate, and there you have it, right? Uh, and so, you know, that's not going to be exact, but that's really how you figure it out. So you have to figure out how much salt you want in there. But, uh, I'm trying to think. I would guess it's somewhere. I wouldn't go over a percent. Right? Maybe like, I wouldn't go over a percent, maybe like a percent. I don't know. What do you think, Sal? 100%? I dont know, somewhere around it. But look up. Look around the internet for like kind of what percentage you want, but I think it's about right. Oh, and do a test beforehand. Like, whenever you're going to do something like this, go buy a fresh turkey breast, right?
+
+[9:55] And a leg. And then just follow what I've just said, inject them with the relative percentages, let them sit for, you know, overnight in zippies or, you know, for a couple of hours
+
+[10:04] and zippies in your fridge, cook them out and taste them. That's the best way. What do you think's that? That's what I would. That's literally what I would do. I think everyone makes a mistake. They don't do a test for us, especially when it's so easy. Thanksgiving bird very important. You don't want to have it like, you don't want to F it up. You know what I'm saying? By the way, you think it's okay to say F instead of the F word. But it's like an exact replacement. So you might as well be saying the F word now. I feel like the F word is not that bad. Hey, Dave, I do have Doug on the line. He's hanging out. All right, cool. Let's get him on the air. We start. talking about this stuff now. Still there, Doug? Hey, Dr. Baldwin, Dave Arnold here. How you doing? Hello. I was doing very well. Good. Good. Long time, no see. I think the last time I saw you is when Nils and I did that thing in Denver many, many moons ago. Yeah. That's been quite a few years. Yeah, fun. Yeah, yeah. So what do you have going on? Anything you want to pitch or plug before we get into the nitty-gritty here? Yeah, sure, on Black Friday, a new Sioux Weed course is coming out, Chef. That's what I worked with everyone on, so that's going to be exciting. Nice. Which one's black, the one right after Thanksgiving. See, I like you. You know why? Because, like, I'm dealing with people that are like, you don't want to hit the Black Friday. You want to hit the cyber Monday. Cyber Monday is a load of horse crap. It's just an opportunity for people to, look, 1st of all, Black Friday is just an opportunity for people to overspend for no apparent
+
+[11:26] reason just because, like, they feel that Christmas season is open and they can spend a lot of money now. But like, why do we need to add other, like, full of crap opportunities? Just stick with the original, stick with the Black Friday. You know, it's your nod to American consumerism and just let it go with that, you know? Makes sense to me, but. Yeah, me too. You know, I'm hoping another reason is that, you know, we have this next batch of sears all is coming in and we're hoping to get them in the stores by in stores in Amazon by Black Friday, but, you know, there's always a question
+
+[11:54] because, uh, you know, it might get held up at customs because we're riding right on that line, in which case we might have to wait
+
+[12:01] till cyber Monday. And if that happens, Nastasia and I will pretend that that was our intent. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah nice. And so why don't you describe the course really quickly? Oh, so it's, uh, they already came out with the sort of, uh, beginning course that covers. How would you do it without a circulator? And then the uh, new course beyond uh, the basics. Assumes you already have a water bath, do we stream a circulator, whatever, and then I cover, Oh, theory about how meat changes with temperature, how what part of the
+
+[12:37] body on the animal relates to how it cooks. I have, we have a really cool mat, that's, uh, logs, time and different temperatures and has, well, islands for tough cuts and tender cuts, things like this. uh, I think people really like it. And it has a nice food safety section, uh, as well. Nice. Well, I appreciate a nice food safety section. So, I'm gonna give you the quick background for those of you that, I don't know, like, haven't listened to this before, don't know the players involved. Uh, about 8000000000 years ago, which means I think like 2008 or 2007 or something like
+
+[13:14] this. Um, there were some questions posted on Egullet, uh, about, um, many questions about Suviet in general. And at that time, there was, you know, I think you, Douglas, were already working with it when you were a PhD student, right? or when you were post-docs, right. And you were working on it. And then on Eagle, there was Nathan M, who was kind of like in these, you know, reading the
+
+[13:40] Eagle of Post and posting to it. I mean, not the, the average person at that point didn't know that Nathan Muirvold was a guy who was interested in cooking and also was going to release
+
+[13:49] Monet Cuisine. was kind of unknown at that time. You know, he was known to people, but not kind of the way he is now, in the food world, that is. Um, So people start posting questions. And then somehow you 2 got together and he, I don't know, he somehow convinced you to actually do the math to figure this stuff out.
+
+[14:09] Is that is that about right? Because you're a mathematics professor, which people might also not know. Yeah, so I kept reading all these things about, you know,
+
+[14:18] different recipes and I thought that doesn't sound very safe, so I went ahead and did the calculations as deep. Well, how long would it take to pasteurize while it eats up, and well, I'm a researcher. So I just went research y all over sous vide cooking. Wrote up my web guide and then came out with my sous vide for the home
+
+[14:37] cookbook. Now I've joined chef steps. So it's a it's been an interesting trajectory. Nice. All right. Now, I know you and I personally have had this kind of argument before, and so we're going to have it now, not an argument, but discussion. Uh, and so what prompted this is that, um, one of our listeners, uh, for a long time, uh, Ken Ingber wrote in and said, hey, listen, there's a lot of conflicting stuff out
+
+[15:03] of the, you know, coming out there about what's safe and what isn't and is this
+
+[15:08] technique dangerous? Is it not? blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, now. And I think there is a lot of kind of horse crap around it. My opinion, why is because, um, people aren't actually like talking about the same things. You know what I mean? Like, people aren't actually like, they're talking, and I'll explain to the listener, and then you tell me whether you agree, and then we'll talk about, like, what we think about this. So, uh, there's 1st of all, there's safe and then there's safe. So, uh, you know, the, there's most cooking is relatively unsafe, like as a
+
+[15:47] process, unless it's very well controlled, right? There's lots of potentials for bad things to happen, for bad things to get on your
+
+[15:54] food and for them to get into your body and to cause illness. This is why people get food poisoning all the time, why they get sick. As a whole, right? Low temperature cooking, vastly because it's more controlled, vastly more safe than
+
+[16:11] uncontrolled home regular cooking. vastly. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah, I agree. Yeah, and without, without, much more predictable. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So someone, you know, does something wrong when they're cooking at home, then, you know, they're much more likely to make a mistake that's going to get them
+
+[16:32] sick, not by using like traditional cooking methods. Caveat here. Now, so when you're cooking in a restaurant, professionally, in fact, we also do unsafe things all the time, but there are food codes that try to prevent us from doing those unsafe things.
+
+[16:50] And if we are going to do those unsafe things and try to get us to tell our customers that we're doing something unsafe, like not cooking their hamburgers all the way.
+
+[16:58] Right? Which is why we are theoretically obligated to do things like put thermometers into the center of things to test whether or not the temperature has gotten up to a high enough point that bacteria are killed so
+
+[17:11] quickly that there's no question that this project is going to be safe. And in general, that's why quick serve and fast food restaurants hammer the hell out of your food. And in general, why their food can't possibly be as good as a restaurant where they take the care to try and do it right.
+
+[17:25] We agree so far. Okay. Now, the fact of the matter is that safety, when it comes to writing a Hasset plan and safety, when it comes to dealing with someone who might be immunocompromised or in a
+
+[17:40] hospital, or when you're dealing with packaged foods that have to go out to a consumer where you have no further control, have a much,
+
+[17:46] much higher standard of safety than stuff that you cook at home on a normal basis.
+
+[17:52] And they also, yeah, and you have more control over the inputs at home. it doesn't smell quite right. It's not quite as good because you're not writing a code that has to be followed by everyone. Here, I think, is the crux that we can talk about to really get into it. Nine tenths of the stuff that I make at home is not pasteurized, period. It's not. You know what I mean? I don't pasteurize fish. I don't pasteurize many meats, and I don't worry about it because, and we've had this discussion before. I'm dealing typically with whole muscle cuts, and I am, you know, fairly certain that they haven't been stabbed to death by someone who had a bunch of E. coli on a
+
+[18:31] knife, and I'm willing to take the risk. So, so why don't, with that kind of in mind, why don't you talk
+
+[18:37] about this to talk about the whole McGillis, since I've just been talking for such long, and we, you know, got, have, you're the guest, so you tell me what you think. Well, I think really the question is, safe for whom? If you are a healthy individual with a good immune system, uh, most foods have a low
+
+[18:56] enough, uh, pathogenic load, that you could eat them raw, and you wouldn't get sick. So, if you just do the minimal cooking where you cook it for a little bit until the
+
+[19:09] texture is right or you sear the outside quickly, is going to be safe to eat.
+
+[19:14] The real problem is for the people who are immune compromise. Uh, they require very few uh, pathogens to get sick. So, if you're immunocompetent, I absolutely agree. You don't need to pasteurize almost any of the food that you eat. What's much more important is not having cross contamination, uh, in your kitchen. I mean, that will cause many more problems, not pasteurizing your food. Right. Now, if you are one of these immune compromise people, and one study shows that 15 to 20% of the US and UK population is at higher risk of foodborne illness, then you do start to need a
+
+[20:01] pasteurized because even, uh, say, impact, chicken breast, 10% of them still would have enough passengers inside
+
+[20:12] them that someone who's immunocompromised would have to be pretty worried.
+
+[20:18] Right. Right. Do you think also, this whole thing is complicated by the fact that even, I'm guilty of this as well. People call in and they ask me a question, right? And I can't come out, and I'm going to have one later on the show, you know, if we have time. They come out, they're like, is this safe? Now, you know, what they should ask me is, would you cook, would you do this in service to your family? Because it's a different question. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, is this safe? I don't really know the context that you're going to do it. Uh, in. I don't know, you know, your personal history. I haven't delved into this specific science. We'll talk about this in a minute on every particular, uh, uh, you know, combination of cooking techniques that are possible. The only thing that I can really comment on, and maybe this is what I should start doing from now on is saying, would I serve this to my family or not? Uh, because I'll always, 100% of the time, like tell you that I can't guarantee that something is safe if I can't, you
+
+[21:20] know? Yeah, if you were trying to eliminate all risk, all your food would probably taste
+
+[21:27] horrible because you can't eliminate all their risk. I mean, there's risks from, oh, did you go through and check to make sure there's no rocks in your lentils? I mean, that's a big risk for someone hurting their teeth or, uh, how often have you been served food that's too hot that burns your mouth? I mean, that's another safety risk. So, there's always all kinds of different risks and trying to eliminate all of them. Uh, take for example, uh, shellfish. You never cook that to eliminate any viruses that are in it. You wouldn't cook shrimp at 90 degrees Celsius for, you know, 12 minutes to
+
+[22:06] eliminate, uh, viruses. Oh, hell no. You would instead make sure people wash their hands before they're going to work with the shellfish.
+
+[22:15] Right. Right. Which will eliminate much more of the risk. and produce something that still is edible. So I, I, I absolutely agree. I mean, it's all about, you have to balance your risk. And if you are really worried about things, like a lot of food safety experts won't eat sprouts. Because they taste bad. They can choose not to eat sprouts. Just because that's a higher risk. They also taste terrible. grow. Yeah. They taste awful. I didn't hear that too. Yeah. I wouldn't mind giving up sprouts myself. I don't think my life would be, you know, much worse. Yeah, especially like raw. I mean, they taste like they're poisoning you. Do you know? Right? Yeah. I mean, look, I don't want to hear it from some people. There are some decent sprouts out there. You know, like, uh, sauteed, uh, mung bean sprouts are good. you know what I mean? But like the average sprout. Yeah, it's good. The average sprout is an abomination. Horrible. Yeah. All right. I like your idea of what I serve this to my family, because that's a good rule of stuff. Right. Right. And then there's stuff that I haven't thought about enough. Uh, to know, like, but there's still, it goes down to the question, would I put this in front of my wife and kids, which I think is, like, says a lot about kind of where your gut is on something without, you know, coming out and saying this is safe so that should someone get sick, they come back and they're like, well, you could, you said it
+
+[23:43] was safe, you know, which is not, you know, not necessarily, uh, you know, a good idea. Well, let me take this a little further. You know, I've had this discussion before with, uh, you know, food safety experts. Um, you know, people, you know, part of the people who work on the codes for it. And, uh, you know, their point is that, um, The average person who doesn't cook for a living or isn't, you know, schooled doesn't necessarily know what risks they're taking on when
+
+[24:13] they're when they're eating something and that it's the goal of the food safety rules to make sure that there are no unknown risks that people are assuming,
+
+[24:23] right? So, you know, if you were to warn people and stuff that, you know, hey, listen, uh, you know, I'm cooking this fish
+
+[24:30] and uh, there might be increased histamine levels because of the way that I prepared it, low temperature. Are you cool with that? You know what I mean? Then they're cool with it, but they don't want a situation where someone's thrown into a situation without them
+
+[24:43] knowing. And so they write kind of draconian codes. Uh, you know, what do you, what do you think about that? What do you think about that problem? Well, yeah, I mean, in some sense, that's the, uh, like an idea of universal accessibility. If, uh, someone's immune compromise and goes into a restaurant and order something that doesn't say it's at high risk, you would hope that they would feel safe in doing
+
+[25:10] that. So, I can certainly see the perspective of airing on the side of
+
+[25:15] caution. So long as we can have that caveat of, Well, yes, this is of higher risk. Let's pretend that you understand what those risks are and have this delicious food. Right. So, you know, another listener wrote in once and asked about
+
+[25:36] the, um, chef steps, uh, procedure. I think it was chef steps, did it, procedure for, yeah, because I spoke to Chris, about fish, and the fish is not being cooked to a level that is,
+
+[25:47] you know, it's in any thermal death curve that's widely available, but it's a series of hurdles that make it safe.
+
+[25:54] And they did the challenge test to prove that it's safe. So clearly that's safe. But in general, you know, I mean, and that's
+
+[26:03] the that's the other thing. A lot of recipes, and this is Bruno Gousseau's, one of his main points, is that a lot of traditional recipes have a lot of hurdles in them that, you know, when you start removing some of the traditional aspects, like, for instance, the presalt on a confit or the herbs in a
+
+[26:17] confit, like, you, like, reduce some of the hurdles to bacterial growth, and then, um,
+
+[26:25] and then therefore, uh, make it make it more dangerous. But, you know, what about the fact that there are all these things that are safe, but we can't prove them because very few of us have the opportunity to do a challenge
+
+[26:36] test. Yeah, that's true. I mean, as you said, a lot of traditional techniques have additional hurdles, things that make it more difficult for the pathogens to multiply and
+
+[26:49] grow, and over time, often kill them. I mean, pickling and things like this where the acid slowly goes through the meat and then destroys the pathogens, uh, are much safer than you would be led to think from the current food code that just says, oh, you need to cook it to
+
+[27:07] this temperature for it to be safe. Now, how do we know which of these we can eliminate and which ones we need to eat? Well, the science hasn't really con enough to give us those answers yet. Are you using a blowtorch in the background? love that. I love that. No, I'm not. what the signal is. It sounded like a blowtorch, which I like. All right, so the, um, but do you think that there is any possibility in the future of, of
+
+[27:38] developing based on worst case scenarios, right? Saying, okay, we're going to take these, let's say, 5 proteins at their various respective fat
+
+[27:48] levels and actually create a calculator that says this much salt, this many
+
+[27:54] of, like, you know, this kind of, and then like have some sort of hurdles calculator. Is that even a possibility? And how much would it cost? Absolutely. It will take a little bit of funding of science, but that's certainly something even I would like to do in the coming decade or so is, uh, have much more advanced
+
+[28:14] calculators like the, uh, hey, calculators, some chef stepsite. I would love to make more calculators like that that get into things like, oh, uh, if you want to make a modern uh, version of a traditional recipe, what things do you really need to make it safe and delicious for our modern
+
+[28:33] palate? I think that's very doable and something that I want to do. But is that like a $200,000 problem, like a half a $1000000 problem or a $1000000 problem? I don't know. Depending on how cheaply undergraduates work. But that seems like something you could get funding for. See, the interesting thing that's going on now, right, is that there are people out there who are interested in data, hard data that has to do with
+
+[28:59] delicious instead of hard data that has to do with straight safety. And so it seems that like, you know, now there's more and more ability to get funding for, uh, for this kind of work, you know, whether it be on uh, Kickstarter, like the guys, the underground food collective, you know, they're working on their
+
+[29:18] own open source hassip or or something else. It seems like, you know, if we got everyone to chip in a couple of bucks, if we knew how much it was going to cost to do all the challenge studies and to, you know, make all the all the worst case,
+
+[29:32] um, you know, uh, curves for these things, it is a sign that, you know, people would be willing to pony up for without even having to go to, you know, the
+
+[29:40] feds for grant money, you know? Yeah, it would be nice. I mean, some other countries are a little more, uh, willing to do the, uh, experiments and, uh, be a little more flexible with traditional recipes. I was rather surprised when, uh, uh, New South Wales called me up and wanted my help in making
+
+[30:02] a, uh, guidelines for their restaurant, didn't me, for sous vide cooking. They were much more willing to, uh, come to the science instead of just sticking to the traditional, uh, equivalent of their food code. Right. I mean, you know, part of the problem with that here, here, especially in New
+
+[30:21] York is that once, once the government takes a stand on, it's very hard to back off. You know what I'm saying, especially when safety is involved. It's much easier to be reasonable if you haven't already taken a stance. Very true. And so, sad as that is, you know, that's why I think New York really got punished by being
+
+[30:42] the 1st jurisdiction to kind of enter the fray. You know, no one really thinks that that happened in a good way, but, you know, once you're out there, you're out
+
+[30:51] there, and that's it. Um, so, so anyway. And so, you know, there you have that. So, let me just, one other thing. Do you know of any curves? Because I couldn't find any death curves for parasites in fish other than freezing death
+
+[31:06] curves. I couldn't find any thermal death curves for worms and, you know, nematodes and all this other stuff in
+
+[31:13] fish. Are those things available? Have you seen them? Uh, none come to mind, but I do have 100s upon 100s of research articles.
+
+[31:23] It's hard to remember all of them. Right. I'll look into that and shoot you an email and you can mention it some other time. Yeah, I mean, because my. You know, my feeling is is that fish that you're going to eat raw, and this includes fish that you're going to low
+
+[31:37] temp, so that's fundamentally raw, if you're eating a variety of fish that is, that has a worm that might possibly, you know, be hosted in a human, you should freeze that sucker at the, you know, you should get it actually, you know, done by the process or frozen as if it was going to be served for sushi, and that's just a safe way to go.
+
+[31:57] You know, I mean. Oh, absolutely agree. And it's a much easier way of solving the problem. Sure, sure. But, like, for instance, like some stuff that's not necessarily prefrozen, but, you know, that you might want to cook not too hard,
+
+[32:13] cod, for instance, right? But do those worms, I can't remember, I think it's possible for them to be things in cod that can transmit, but anyway, so things like nobody likes it. Nobody likes to butcher a cod and see those worms come out. You ever done that stuff? It's gross. The little worms popping up out of the flood. It's disgusting. But, uh, you know, I mean, that, you know, that's one of the few things I can see where, you know, you're buying a fish that does not necessarily, you know, frozen for sushi because no one's eating that that
+
+[32:41] way, that you might cook a little under. But again, like that, but the reason that you, I don't think I could find the
+
+[32:49] curves is I don't think anyone's bothered to do the thermal death curves on those things, you know? Yeah, I think you're probably right on that. Because when you fry a cod, man, those things are dead. You know, when you batter and fry a cod, and, you know, and that's the way Gordon's was doing it back before the cod got to
+
+[33:04] high price and they had to buy other, you know, fish that they could batter and fry, almost any white fish
+
+[33:09] will taste good batter. No, I mean, if you've pasteurized it for any of the bacteria,
+
+[33:14] you've definitely killed all of the larger organisms. Yeah, all the worms. Yeah, the question I think that's why most people don't put money into it because almost all the money is going into uh, listeria, almanola, E. coli, death curves, and of
+
+[33:31] course things like uh, botulism scores. Right, things like that. So let's get into that. A few people test anything else. Right. I know, and there might be something else that's going to crop up and wipe us out. Who knows? But the, uh, let's talk about botules in front of the, because another thing with sous vide is everyone is worried, I think, kind of incorrectly about, uh, well, not incorrect to worry about, they should obviously worry about it, but incorrectly, uh, crazily worried about, um, the anaerobic
+
+[33:59] bacteria, like botulism, uh, and, and, and yes, it's true. You know, they grow in in these environments. And yes, it's true, you don't, um, you're, you know, you don't kill the
+
+[34:12] spores, and so it's very easy for them to kind of regenerate. But what's not true, I think, is like the kind of level of paranoia people have about
+
+[34:20] it because if, see, I think it becomes an issue when you're pushing the boundaries of what's good
+
+[34:25] practice. I think that if you treat the food that's in a bag, the way you would treat any other decent food product that you care
+
+[34:34] about, that you're not going to be in harm's way, you know, keep it refrigerated. Although, you know, they're having studies, and I'm sure you've read them, that people have gotten botulism spores to
+
+[34:44] generate and reproduce, you know, infridge when the temperature fluctuates even slightly above, you know, even at 40, but I haven't actually read the data myself.
+
+[34:54] But I'm really not worried about it. You? No, I like to compare it with canning. If you are going to be canning at home, then you need to worry a lot about botulism and
+
+[35:08] how stored and how it's processed. But if you're just making up uh vegetables for that dinner tonight, then you don't have to worry about botulism at
+
+[35:17] all. And I think it's the same way with 2 V cooking. If you're preparing it for night or tomorrow or even the next day. There just isn't any worry about or you shouldn't be worried about botulism. It's only if you want to use it for extended storage that you have to worry about it at all. And so long as you have a good cold refrigerator, which, if you're, you know, serving people in a restaurant
+
+[35:43] that, you know, a commercial setting, you're going to know what temperature a fridge is. It's the people at home who don't have a thermometer in their fridge. I think if they would just fit a thermometer in, say, oh yeah, we're hovering around, you know, 45 Fahrenheit, and yeah, maybe we need to not store this for so long. That would be good. Right. And 11 last thing before we, I think we need to do like a summary of like, you know, summary of this, so people, you know,
+
+[36:09] uh, one thing that that low temperature cooking does do is you do have the possibility, whereas you don't with many other cooking techniques, of actually rendering something absolutely safe for people to consume.
+
+[36:22] And I think that's another, that's another thing where, you know, this goes awry is that we give people data to pasteurize, you know, a rare
+
+[36:32] steak such that, you know, you could serve it at a hospital or you could serve it to someone who's, you know, you know, really whose immune system has been ravaged by
+
+[36:41] whatever, and it would be totally safe. And so when you give those numbers, it implies that anything less than that is not safe for the average person to consume, which is
+
+[36:52] not the case. It just goes to show that there's such an increased level of safety
+
+[36:57] that's possible with this technique. What do you think about that? No, I agree. It's a common misconception, but just because you can process a state, if you don't process the extreme doesn't mean it's unsafe,
+
+[37:09] if, uh, you know, logic A implies B, you need not be implies not a, not something else. So, uh, no, I think, uh, the point that you can make food much safer than with traditional methods and still
+
+[37:25] have say, uh, medium rare doneness. is a huge advantage. I think that's what you're trying to say. Yeah. So here's, so here's, I think that, like the, the, the summary, right? If you don't feel comfortable cooking it in a particular way, because you don't, then don't do it. one, right? Uh, then two, if someone has a, uh, recipe that has a series of very specific,
+
+[37:53] like hurdle type instructions, this level of acid, this level of time, this cooking thing, then
+
+[38:00] probably, and it's been tested, don't deviate from it because that's the only thing we can guarantee that's safe if safety is your primary concern,
+
+[38:09] right? absolutely. And and then beyond that, that, you know,
+
+[38:16] really, most of the time, we don't cook to pasteurize because we're not cooking to eliminate all of the risks that are involved because we're not dealing typically a lot of us with people that are apt to get sick from that sort of thing.
+
+[38:32] And secondly, even in those cases, it's a good idea to do general things like a kill step
+
+[38:39] on the surface of something where most of the contamination is going to take place, and that's going to kill most of the stuff that's going to go on. And that's really kind of the answer to it. And if you just do those 2 things, then cooking with these kinds of techniques,
+
+[38:54] presuming that you're not trying to store things for a long time or not trying to get away with things that you wouldn't otherwise do in your kitchen isn't really introducing a lot of excess risk. What do you do you agree or no? Absolutely agree on all of those points. Yes, you know, you guys, do you guys have like a manifesto of this up or something like
+
+[39:12] this? Someone needs to put something up because I don't really, I don't blog anymore, do much more internet stuff. Someone needs to just write like, hey, look, like, here's what's really going on. Do you think you guys could like put something up like that or no? Oh, probably. I mean, we certainly have some in our next class coming up. Uh, but maybe we can do up a good blog post and, uh, help explain this better for everyone. Yeah, well, you know, listen, I appreciate it. I think hopefully, you know, Ken's happy. Hopefully, you know, we cleared up a bunch of misconceptions. I think that, that, uh, people have, uh, especially when they hear people that sound like they're
+
+[39:48] disagreeing, but really aren't, you know, in terms of what's safe and what's not. Uh, and I hope everyone on Black Friday goes to
+
+[39:55] chef steps. What the name of the course? Uh, stupid cooking beyond the basics. Sous vide cooking beyond the basis. Beyond the basics with Douglas Baldwin. Let's take a quick commercial and come back. Thanks so much, Douglas.
+
+[40:31] This is Chris Howell from Kane Vineyard and Winery, calling in from Spring Mountain, above the Napa Valley. Thank you for listening to this show. In our industrial world, highly processed food and wine, we support the values of
+
+[40:50] Heritage radio network. All of us that gain encourage you to seek out individuality and beauty in everything you eat and drink.
+
+[40:58] To learn more about us, go to cane 5.com. All right, we're back. We have a color on the line in time for one question from that caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hello? Hello? It's JD. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing well. Nice. Nice. I want you to call in, uh, a question about, um, the
+
+[41:26] wet grinder. I sent you a tweet just to find out if you had any ideas in terms of low cost options and how well they work.
+
+[41:35] Well, what are you trying to make? So for those of you that don't know, grinding things is difficult, and most grinding machines don't, they have a very specific range of particle sizes that they're good at taking from one to the other.
+
+[41:51] So very few things are capable of taking whole items and then reducing them down to very, very, very tiny particles. Things are good in a range. One grinder that's relatively, well, not extremely old school, but and is capable over long periods of time, of fairly fine particle
+
+[42:08] sizes and also good distribution and mixing, is a wet grinder. And the kind of, it's, you know, the chocolate grinders are based on this, you know, agave grinders for production of tequila traditional ones
+
+[42:23] are, you know, or any agave spirit are like this. And also in India for grinding things like Italy and other kind of wet does. And they're called wet grinders. And it's fundamentally, a rock or 2 rocks that spin in over another flat rock.
+
+[42:42] And they just keep spinning, and as it spins, it grinds grinds and grinds and grinds. Now, the lucky thing is that it's a common enough home product, that in India, they make home appliances to do this. And those are the ones that most people are using, and I bought one years ago, the only one that was available at the time was the Santha, you know,
+
+[43:04] S-A-N-T-HA. Uh, it was, how much were the styles? like 300 bucks or something like that. And it's awesome. It broke because some knucklehead dropped it and shattered the rock. Remember that? Jerks. And so I no longer have one, but I think they're great at what they're great at. There's some other ones that I haven't tried. So the Santa has 2 kind of regular cylindrical stones. There's ones that have cone shaped stones that roll around. I've never used them. I liked the Santa. You know, its limitations are fundamentally its size, and the fact that if you don't have the right texture in the stuff that you're grinding,
+
+[43:42] it has a hard time processing it. So we would use it to make like stupid, smooth, nut, uh, nut
+
+[43:49] paste and, uh, like so much better than so much better than what people make when they made. They're like, yeah, they taste my nut butter. I'm like, eh. And then we used to like, right? Remember that? Like, stupid, smooth, but we would 1st put them through a champion, uh, or like do like a rough grind in a food processor, and then we would throw it in the Santa and have it go. But the trick is you have to get the liquid level right or it doesn't process right. So we would always dope back in, like, you know, no offense to California almonds, but they're low in oil. So we would add oil to something like that when we were processing of, you know, of something that had more oil in it. We processed better, do it that way. Same with chocolate. So we would use it to do like a simultaneous conch and grind
+
+[44:27] of, and, you know, and grinding of chocolate. But the issue there is you have to go for relatively long periods to get the texture right,
+
+[44:34] like on the order of 2 days. or something like this. Anyway, but am I answering the question or no? Yeah, because I was looking to do my own conscious as well as I wanted to do, um, kind of an experiment on, you know,
+
+[44:48] taking, uh, everything popping on bagels and making a butter out of that. Oh, yeah? Well, including the garlic and everything. Yeah, I don't know how well it'll liquefy. You might need to add some oil to it, and I would definitely recommend taking everything to a fine dust in a, in like, you know, a
+
+[45:08] vita prep or a food processor or something like this or, you know, sesame and all
+
+[45:13] that if you're going to grind them in poppies in some form of grinder 1st because you're not going to be able to put that stuff into a
+
+[45:19] santha and just walk away from it. It's not going to work. You know what I mean? It needs to, the Santa needs to start with something that's already some form of paste. And then once it's already some form of paste, it'll just keep on rocking. You know what I mean? Now I have that song going through my head. Oh my gosh. It was already in my head because I got referenced before, but now keep on rocking in the free world is not going to leave my head. Okay, go ahead. Um, that was pretty much it. Thanks for coming into Main Street Kitchen the other day. Oh yeah, delicious. Delicious. I had a good time. You guys, like, I, I, obviously, even though that was theoretically lunch, I obviously couldn't eat dinner that night, because we had so much, but it was all
+
+[45:58] delicious, and I encourage you all to visit, uh, May May kitchen. You guys still run the food truck as well, though, right? Yes, yep. We also have a food truck. Yeah. And they're in, so what do you call that neighborhood in Boston? Um, it's a South BU campus area. It's the same area stop off the green line. Nice. All right. So for those you that go to Boston regularly. Although, you know what? I wish I had taken public transportation. Your city is a nightmare to drive around. I know that everyone always tells you this, but it's crazy. It's a crazy city to drive in. Did you know that? Oh, wow. I think we lost 80, but yeah, we got to get to this last question before the show ends. All right, well, I'm going to bush through a bunch of stuff. I'm going to get to as much as you let me before you pull the plug. So, Austin writes in about fireball whiskey. Quick summary. Fireball whiskey has been recalled, Sun Fireball whiskey, has been recalled in Norway, Sweden, and Finland after the North American formula, which contains propylene glycol was shipped to Europe.
+
+[46:55] Europe has a ban on propylene glycol, and as a result, fireball whiskey creates 2 different formulas from North American Europe, one with PG, the other without. Brooklyn glycol is an ingredient that has a concentrated industrial level, at a concentrated industrial level, found things like
+
+[47:06] anti-freeze, on a pharmaceutical food grade level. It is used as liquid sweetener and things like soda, toothpaste, and tobacco. USDA is declared it safe at this less concentrated food grade level. And then the question is, well, why is it banned in the Europe and not in the US? And considering that it's used in things like e-cigarettes, toothpaste, makeup, and soda, is this recall, retrieving, receiving undue attention and scrutiny, or is this justified, and how pissed off should we
+
+[47:29] be that this ingredient is used in fireball? You should be more pissed off that you're drinking fireball. Yeah. I mean, the stuff is like rancid, like overly sweet, like fake, uh, cinnamon-based, uh, liquor, and it should be banned everywhere. That's the concern. That's the main concern. Yeah. You know, the stuff is like from a taste making standpoint poisonous. much more so than if you were to drink straight propylene glycol, right? And so that's that's my feeling. But inherent in the summary are a couple of things that aren't exactly true. So when people put this stuff on the, you know, on the internet and it runs rampant, like, and it's like, you know,
+
+[48:07] like people did this with Twinkies. This whole book about it. like, 0 my god, 0 my god. It's got anti-freeze in it, right? Well, no. Let me let me let me bang this out. Propylene glycol is used as an ingredient in food,
+
+[48:23] food application anti-freezes because it's non-toxic and it doesn't freeze. And it's also unlike things like ethanol, which is also used in food grade
+
+[48:33] anti-freeze formulations. Propylene glycol water solutions have a better heat transferring capability in cooling
+
+[48:41] systems, then does alcohol water solutions. And so they're just better, typically, uh, they're just better to use as antifreeze and things like ethanol and
+
+[48:51] water. And they're using food grade systems, unlike propylene glycol's cousin, ethylene glycol, which is what's most typically used in car antifreezes, because ethylene glycol is relatively
+
+[49:03] toxic compared to propylene glycol, which is not. Now, ethylene glycol. First of all, you should know that propylene glycol is not good to feed the cats. Now, ethylene glycol, kill cats. That's why like anti-freeze, that's why people who hate neighborhood cats like put out puddles of anti-freeze because the stuff is sweet and cats go and lap that stuff up and it wipes them
+
+[49:22] out. propylene glycol, also not good for cats because it messes with their red blood cells and can cause this thing called Heinz bodies, no relation to the ketchup, even though it's in the red blood cells, no relation to the ketchup, Heinz
+
+[49:35] bodies, and can be very bad for cats, but that appears to be something that is really typically only in cats.
+
+[49:41] Now, let's head to uh, and propylane glycol, by the way, other than the fact that it doesn't uh, freeze, uh, you know,
+
+[49:47] readily, and so it's used in anti-freeze things. It's used for a number of other properties. It's a very good solvent because it combined with polar and non-polar things. It's not really, I mean, it's slightly, I've tasted it. It's like, I don't really like it. It's like tight, it's like, you know, I wouldn't call it sweet. It's like marginally there, but it also like absorbs moisture out of the air. It has a lot of different purposes. Uh, anyways, uh, it is not banned in the EU, the EU has a very specific uh, quantity that they allow you to have. Now, this is might have been superseded, but I looked up the, you know, the circa 1996 EU
+
+[50:24] rules, and they said that the present 25 milligrams per kilogram body
+
+[50:29] weight daily allowance of drinking propylene glycol is based on the no adverse effect level in long-term rat studies, in which, however, the maximum tolerated dose has not been
+
+[50:40] reached. And furthermore, this is direct quotes from the EU documents. A safety factor of 100 was used to establish this AD1 on the basis of the metabolism of propylene glycol, its total toxicity profile, and the large human experience with oral and parental pharmaceutical preparations, no, pair, pair, and
+
+[51:03] terrell, much I don't even know that word, pharmaceutical preparations containing propylene glycol as a vehicle.
+
+[51:08] In other words, they base a level. They're like, well, we couldn't really kill rats with this stuff. And so we took these other things, and then we multiplied that by 100 and figured that was a safe amount, but they don't talk that way because it's European. We figured that was safe, you know? And so that's what they did, whereas in the US, pro point glycol has a GRAS,
+
+[51:25] general guarded as safe, rating, meaning it doesn't have the same limitations. Furthermore, the recipe for fireball did contain propylene glycol in Europe, but just not as much propylene glycol. And so they shipped a US formulation, which had a slightly higher amount. So I have a lot of more to get to, but we're not going to get to it because I'm being ripped off the air and this was cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[51:59] store by searching heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit to donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from
+
+[0:07] classic French techniques in culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management, from culinary technology to food writing, from cake making to wine tasting.
+
+[0:17] For more information, visit culinarycenter.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting Accurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:38] Hello and welcome to Cookie Intries. is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on Thanksgiving Day week on
+
+[0:46] Harry 3 Network in Bushwick. How you doing, Stas? Yeah? In the studio as usual. Nastasio the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack White in the booth over there. Who else we got in there, please? Vanessa, who's trailing us today, food study student. Hey, yeah, food studies where? NYU. NYU, huh? What style of food studies? What style of food are you studying? I'm actually also a dietetic internet best year university in Seattle. Ah, wow, so you like bicastal person there. Yes. Yeah. So, okay, so are you, you're then focusing on nutrition here in NYU or? Nutrition and food studies. So the connection between people, food, and the environment. Yeah, you're for that connection or against it? Definitely for it Oh, nice. All right, very good. All right. Well, welcome to the program. Styles, anything good going on? No, we should probably start. Yeah, well, first, tell me where you're going for the Thanksgiving. I going to Ohio. All right. Another discussion role. don't want to. No, all right, you don't have to. I, for the 1st time in my life, am having Thanksgiving at my house. You know? First time ever. First time ever. First time ever. I was like, you know crap on it. You guys come to our place for a change. So I'm gonna do... I mean, look, many years I've cooked the bird no matter where I was going. In fact, I think for the last, I don't know how many years in real, I've cooked the bird. By the way, Jack, what have you done? I'm going to be at my dad's house and for the 1st time I'm contributing sides, so that's nice. Besides, you're not going to, is there a heritage bird involved? There's not. No heritage bird. You know, sadly, I don't have one either because I didn't ask in time to get one. I'm sure now it's too late. Wyatt has one. I don't know he beat us. Why? You got yourself a heritage bird? Oh, yeah. How many pounds is that sucker? 20? Yeah? How hell are you gonna do it? What's that? Don't say cook it. are you gonna do to it? Yeah? Well, you know, well, no one asked any bird questions this year. There are some, Actually, we had a couple of weeks ago. You know, there's some various different ideas about you're going to brine and roast, right? That's fine. I just saw, what's his name? at Sirius Eats. Kenji. Alt Lopez. He said never, Brian. Yeah, I know you said that. Yeah why? Well, what's up with that? hey, look, anti-briners, and I count, you know, many friends among them. For instance, you know, Harold McGee's not big on all over Brian for certain of these things. Their theory is that the liquid that you're adding isn't necessarily helpful for the
+
+[3:08] flavor and also brining can be difficult, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Me, I, Brian. I do, but I tend to do kind of a, these days, I tend to actually do more of what Kenji says, which is just kind of rub salt into the parts that I want to get
+
+[3:21] salty and then kind of wait. Also, you got to remember it's much easier for me to brine a bird. Since usually I rip all the bones out of it anyway. And so it looks like a sack of skin, like a like a men in black, you know, Edgar suit slash, you know, sort
+
+[3:35] of like kind of sack of turkey. And then I reconstruct it when I'm going to cook it. So it looks like a whole bird, again. Um, I mean, it is a whole bird. don't cut the skin. I just rip all the bones out, like some sort of alien creature. So, uh, so it's, you know, I can do kind of things with it that you otherwise can. I'm thinking of injection brining this year, actually. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Itll be easy because I won't have to transport it 100 miles like I usually do. But your advice for the regular home cook who's not deep owning would be the brine. Or, you know, at least salt the salt to breast meat. Look, I would go for the injection brining, frankly, which is what I'm going to be doing this year. I don't think I'm going to do the full exoskeleton because I just am so swamped with work, you know? You know, it takes, you have to have the exoskeleton be part of your work or, I don't know, I don't know what, but I don't have time to do the exoskeleton this year. Although it is probably the best turkey I've ever made, and I've done it like 3 times, it's always the best, but no, I don't think I'll be doing exoskeleton this year.
+
+[4:30] Did you like the exoskeleton turkey? Yep. It was good, right? All right. Do you guys like turkey? I love turkey. I prefer turkey the next day. Styles. you a turkey fan? I like it the next day too. Sandwiches? What do you like on your sandwich? Um, they're like a mayonnaise green stuff. mixture with cranberry sauce. I don't know what kind of green. I don't remember. Stuff your mom makes? Green stuff? That sounds good. I am not a cranberry on my, on my, on my turkey thing. Mayonnaise, uh, mayonnaise, uh, tomato, lettuce, salt, pepper, and maybe some
+
+[5:05] mustard, and pretty much uh, that's it. Jack, your turkey sandwiches? Yeah, I'm all right on turkey. Well, cranberry or no? Oh, cranberry. cranberry, yeah. What? That's a yes from Wyatt, too. Yeah, what about the bicastal over there? Cranberry or no cranberry on the turkey sandwiches? Yes. I'm the only one who doesn't. I love cranberry. I have my cranberry next to it. Also, like, it's the stuffing is the big thing. I mean, really, the turkey is there so that you have a large cave to shut for stuffing, although you're not allowed to put stuffing in. I don't want to hear any crap about how I'm going to get someone some food poisoning. The way I cook the bird, you can, in fact, put the stuffing in because I pre-heat the, I pre-pasturize the stuffing in an immersion circulator before I stuff it in, at a temperature lower than it takes to set the egg whites and then stick it in for
+
+[5:48] the. So I don't want to hear anything about how I'm going to poison people because I'm not. All right, Jack, I don't want to hear anything. Got it. All right. Let's get some questions. Oh, by the way, should you have a Thanksgiving base question? Call your questions. 2 7184972128. 718-4972128. Uh, Alex Rodan, Deer, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and company. My wife recently returned from a visit with a college roommate with some frozen packages. Mark simply bear roast. I didn't do this one yet, did I? The bear currently occupies a prominent place on their wall, I guess, you know, the body of it, or the head of it. And I was hoping you could suggest some ideas for how to prepare the meat. Many of my fellow cooking issues fans probably remember your previous experiments with bear raccoon and beaver, but I was wondering what you would suggest I do with the meat in light of your experience. I have access to a circulator and a pressure cooker, but that's about it on the tech side. Please advise. Also, someday when you have some time, I have another question. Earliest summer, I attended an event in Toronto, where Dave spoke, I was, in fact, there, where I spoke after the screening of Soylent Green. At that event, somebody asked a question about GMO foods. One of the issues people often worry about when they worry about food. I gave an interesting and nuanced answer, and I've heard him similarly allay people's fears about industrial foods, food additives, and many of their other common food fears, as well as dietary
+
+[7:00] concerns like MSG and salt sodium. I also appreciated Patrick Martin's critique of blind enthusiasm for local foods. Dave, what issues should we worry about when we worry about food and food production. Biodiversity, the health of the ocean seems like an obvious and important one, but what other food issues should we actually be concerned about, Alex? Huh? Well, Alex, that 2nd one, like, I could go on for, like, 3 days and 3 nights. I probably shouldn't even. I mean I think there's plenty to worry about. Maybe that should be the subject of my next book. My next book's not going to be cocktails. Stas is waiting for me to actually choose a subject for my next book so she just won't have to hear me wonder aloud. in October. Yeah, but what are the odds? What are the odds? Like, probably lessons zero. Like, let's say I were to actually hand in a book in October, like what would you do? No, just the subject, let's do. No, the subject was last October. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The book is due in October. But if I actually handed in the book in October, would you would you jump off of a bridge or something? I don't know. I just know it never happened. It's just like, it's like saying what would happen if like this table or suddenly disappear without David Copperfield being
+
+[8:03] here? Okay. Well, about the bear. Here's the issue. The bear we had sucked. Remember that bear stars? Yeah, it was terrible. Tasted like, well, that was the one that tasted like iron nails, right? It wasn't as bad as the raccoon. Raccoon was the worst, the worst. But here's what I'm going to tell you. I have spoken to many hunters on this issue, and they swear on stacks of whatever book you choose
+
+[8:23] holy that, uh, that young bear is delicious, delicious, delicious stuff. I've never had it, so I don't know. I will say this, that different animal, this is like Rosemary's baby. Every pregnancy is different. Every animal that is kind of a wild animal is going to cook, I think, a little bit differently. It's going to taste a little bit different depending on how old it is, what it was
+
+[8:45] eating, you know, it's definitely going to affect the flavor of the meat and the fat that's in it. Uh, you know, what condition the animal was in when it died, how long the meat's been around, and then what kind of cut of meat you have. So certain cuts of meat, you know what's going to happen because you've cooked them a lot, like, you know, certain cuts of deer and whatnot elk, all this kind of stuff. But with something like a bear. you say it was frozen, right? I think you said it was frozen. It's been a while. I got to look back. Yeah, frozen. So 1st thing you have to do is when you're going to cook them, choose when you're going to cook and then kind of let it defrost and check your drip loss. That's always what you want to do when you have a frozen piece of something and you don't really know how good the freezer was it was in or how it was frozen. Let the sucker thaw out and see what kind of a drip loss you get out of it. If you get like, like a huge sack of like, you know, like pinkish liquid, then
+
+[9:39] it's it's been subjected to some some uh, mechanical damage in the freezer from freeze thaw cycles. And then that's going to limit what you can do in terms of whether it's going to make a delicious whole muscle cut of mean or not, right? That's your 1st thing to assess. Second, take a piece of the meat off of the outside, assuming it's not freezer burner anything. Take a piece of meat off the oz small, and then just cook it in a frying pan. and then assess the flavor of it and see where it is, right? After you do that, look at the piece all over, right? And then if you think that it could be a tender cut, right, then slice off a small piece of it, throw it in a
+
+[10:16] bag, and determine kind of where you want it. Do you want it to be like pork? Now, remember, bear, wild bear can have chicken nosis, so you don't want to eat it raw. You know, see whether you want to take it like on the steak side, like 57 or whether you want it a little
+
+[10:29] bit like more like on the pork side, like 60, 61, 62 Celsius. Let it cook for only like an hour or so. Then cut off a piece of it and taste it and see the texture. Now, if it's really tough and you feel that that toughness is from connective tissue,
+
+[10:43] then let it ride for a day and then taste it. If it's getting better, let it ride a 2nd day and then if it's good. And that's how I figure it out with a very small piece of meat, kind of what's going on, and you're not going to get a lot with flavor because with a small piece of meat, you're not going to be able to test. But then you'll be able to see what's kind of going on. And you should be able to accomplish this before the piece that you've
+
+[11:03] thawed that you want to cook it, its entirety goes bad. And that's really, if you have an unknown quantity, If you haven't cooked a lot of the animal before, that's really how I would proceed. Makes sense? Yep. Okay. Got a caller on line six. Line 6 caller. We actually have a line six. No. All right. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? That's good. Just a real quick question for you. I recently got some ultraspurse M, and I'm familiar with
+
+[11:29] ultraspurse 3, uh, that's what I've always been using, but I have a supplier in town here who could get me M for super cheap,
+
+[11:39] like I get way more of it. Is there any major differences or setbacks? as far as 3 and them go. Well, my understanding of them and bear in mind that I haven't used them a lot side by side, right? is both of them are spurses. So any spurse-based starch is pre-cooked and also agglomerated so that it's easy to mix
+
+[12:00] into it won't clump up when you try to mix it in, all right? So that's, so right there you know what kind of family it is. Now, I think that the difference between a 3 and the M. I think one of them is potato, and I think one of them is tapioca based, right? Or no, one of them's corn and one of them's tapioca. It's one of those things. Yeah, yeah. The, uh, the 3 is tapioca and the end. Okay, so when you're looking at tapioca starch versus, so the difference in functionality, I think you're mainly going to notice because one might have more or less thickening power than the other. And I can never remember which one thickens more torn or tapioca, right? But this is easy to look up. So the fundamental difference between the 2 of them is fundamentally going to be the difference between corn, starch and tapioca, starch. So I would guess that the tapioca one in higher concentrations is probably going to be more elastic. Also, a lot depends on, if you're going to do a lot of cook after you put disperse in, if you're going to do a lot of extra cooking, some starches. And again, I haven't looked at the table, so I can't remember which is which, but some starches will thin out faster if you cook them a long time, especially in the presence of acid. So I think the big differences you're going to notice is one might take a little more thickening, one more take a little more to thicken than the other. Could be substantial. I don't know. I have to look at the curves. And the other thing that to bear in mind is that one might be more process stable than another. But other than that, I think, you know, if you're just doing it to add a little bit of thickness to a sauce, I think you're going to be all right. Okay, so since you're saying that basically you can kind of compare it side by side with the tapioca and the corn, do you think that the corn one would have some leaping in it?
+
+[13:37] Ah, well, that's interesting. I mean, more than tapioca? I don't know. I mean, like, if you're having weeping with, I've never, I've never used tapioca in, uh, I mean, I don't stock it in my house, like cooking, like tapioca stars for cooking. So I haven't really have a lot of experience on whether you get less cinoresis with the tapioca then with not. Um, and you know what? I would look up and see, if you want to know about like weeping, I would look up which one they recommend for pie fillings. Because if, you know, like one of the good things for these things is you can you can mix it in with, uh, you know, with your fruit, you won't get any
+
+[14:14] clumping, and then when you cook it up, it'll thicken out on you, but you don't need to worry about functionalizing it and cooking it
+
+[14:19] out. Um, I don't know. I don't know whether I have less weeping. I'll try I could try to look it up. Uh, if you, if you, someone tweeted at me, was this you tweeted me a while ago, the difference, but I got to look up the curves and see whether or not one has less
+
+[14:33] in a recess than the other. But I think like a simple search on like ultra spurse, you know, M, and then Cinoresis are weeping, and they'll tell you which one's best at kind of holding it back. Okay, yeah, I'll do that for sure. Thanks a lot, Dave. All righty, have a good one. All right, let me see. Go back. My phone's back in that mode styles where it wants to turn off every 10 seconds. Okay. We have a question in from David. On lemon sorbet. With an neon in S David, right? I guess so. Not like, unless it's Italian, in which case it's David Day. Like Scabin. Scabiners could be a name. Ah, man, what a jerk I am. First of all, Dave, I would like to say that I just plowed through liquid intelligence, and it's brilliant. No, thanks. The only problem is that I told too many bartender friends about it, and they all suggested I give them a copy as a present. This Christmas, I'm gonna be bankrupt. Please bankrupt yourself by buying my book. I'm just kidding. That's not nice, right? No, I'm just kidding. You know, I'm kidding. Uh, okay. My question is about juicing lemons and lemon sorbet. I developed a recipe for lemon sorbet. I am pretty happy about. A microplane lemon zest and a simple syrup, which I assume is 50-50. There's a, yeah, it's 50 water and 50 various sugars and stabilizers. There's a complicated simple syrup. This is not actually simple syrup. What you call simple syrup is sucrose, glucose, syrup powder, dextrose, maltodextrin, inulin, to give stas, the toots. Inulins, what's in sweet, sweet, sunshake? Uh, Inulin, Xanthan, and Guargum. So that's kind of, you should call that complicated sugar. Where am I? good, right? I let it infuse at fridge tent for 24 hours, then filter, add freshly
+
+[16:07] squeezed and filtered lemon juice plus water, and churn in a batch freezer. I like that the, well, it makes sense because it's not for, it's not for cocktails, it's for sorbet. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? I like that the extra lemon flavor and slight bitter aftertaste. The zesky is, and I try to squeeze the lemons at the very last possible moment to reduce oxidation.
+
+[16:27] It served me well until a few days ago when I noticed that my lemons were noticeably funky. Like that's a, I just read George Clinton's memoir, so noticeably funky to me sounds like a compliment because I just, you know, went through 250 pages of like the funkiest man ever. How was it? George Clinton's memoir? Well, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, you know, it goes, like, like the 1st two-thirds of it are, well, like, you know, when it's going through all the stuff that's like super famous, you know, like, like, Funkadelic and Parliament, it's kind of awesome to kind of see what was going on where they're just like, well, we want to see if we could, like, do an album where we were high on acid or, you know, talking about like the weird, like, back and forth between the bands and how they're trying to keep everything together and how he started with doo-wop and ended up with kind of funk. And, and he's very, very frank about kind of the commercialism of it and trying to, like, hit, like, what people wanted at the same
+
+[17:14] time. trying to pl your own way. Really interesting. And then, you know, also interesting when it gets into stuff where I kind of lost track, like the, you know, post-atomic dog stuff. Um, but the last section is just a diatribe against the music, basically the way that music industry is like full of crooks and thieves and stuff like
+
+[17:31] that. And, you know, it ends with all the people in P-Funk, uh, in the P-Funk family that have died, you know, you know,
+
+[17:37] because, you know, they're getting old and plus they lived hard. Now you got Alice and Alice and my fantasies going through my head, it's all in plains in my head. Anyway, all right, gotta go back. Funky here, not a good thing. So we're not talking about good funk. Uh, blah, blah, blah, got to get back to the question. Noticeably funky. I always start by, remember, we're talking about sorbet hair stars. Uh, I always started by squeezing the zested lemons to avoid wasting um, um, then squeeze the fresh ones to reach the amount of juice I need. This time the juice from the naked lemons, i.e. the ones that are peeled, was terrible. Terrible, terrible. Depending on how hard I was pressing while juicing, I had various off flavors ranging from oversteeped chamomile tea. Do you like chamomile or chamomile? doesn't matter. You don't care? What about you, Jack? Are you a meal or a mile? I usually say chamomile. Meal? Yeah, I'm a meal man myself. I wonder whether that's a regional thing. Uh, tahita strawberry, uh, which would be good. rotten eggs, which is not good. The dependence on pressure seems to indicate that they were rotting or oxidizing from the outside
+
+[18:30] in. I ended up throwing it all away and juicing fresh ones. My questions are, were the lemons bad in the 1st place, or the 24 hours in the fridge with no peel on them, somehow ruin them. I have peeled and grated lemons in the fridge all the time, and I like to think that I would have noticed if it had happened before, but I can't be sure, can I? If leaving peeled lemons in the fridge is a bad idea. Is there a way to zest them in juice in the same day? Should I force infuse the syrup with nitrous to be able to finish the sorbet the same day? If I juice the lemons and backpack the juice, would it oxidize in 24
+
+[18:56] hours, can I freeze the juice if I plan on using it in sorbet, where I would refreeze it without heating any other thoughts or suggestions? Thanks and keep rocking David. Okay, here's a couple of things. If you're going to serve the sorbet right away, then, you know, by all
+
+[19:11] means, use like super fresh lemon juice, right? If it's going to sit for a couple of days anyway, then I think you might want to actually do the technique where you take the lemons from
+
+[19:20] fresh through evil back to a different but good again. And what I mean by that is, like, the same way you do with lime juice, where you do like a cordial, where you actually take the juice and cook it with the sugar and the
+
+[19:34] zest. So I know this sounds weird. You cook it, right? And then when you cook it, it goes through being that evil
+
+[19:41] detergent into something that still has some of those detergent notes, but it's good again because it's more of a
+
+[19:46] cordial. And cordials we like, even though they're not fresh lemons. But it's not going to have the fresh lemon flavor. If you want fresh lemons, you kind of have to do it the day of. I don't know that you're going to have that much luck. You can do it with the nitrous, but I think what you're going to want to do is just keep doing it the way you're doing with this proviso. Lemons are, so like a lot of times we'll get lemons and like, I know what a batch of lemon smells like when one or 2 of them is about to go bad, if they're not stored
+
+[20:10] in the walk-in, right? So, or in the fridge. So you might have had some lemons that were about to go off anyway. So if you were zesting them and you notice that they were noticeably soft, then I would just not, I would just either like juice that lemon right away or throw it away. Also, uh, like they're really kind of perishable once they're, um, once they're zested, right? Because they're now super porous. So if they're totally dry. Like if you let them dry out a little bit before you put them in the fridge, then they should be okay overnight, but if they're wet and
+
+[20:40] tacky, and then they're in a big box and they're kind of packed together and it takes a long time for them to kind of cool
+
+[20:45] down or if you're not cooling them at all, like I have seen ones get noticeably effed up and
+
+[20:50] funky, and it's usually from the outside. So what you do is you smell your lemons before you do it. I don't think that the inside of the lemon is rotting out. So I think you just got like a confluence of bad events and got unlucky. What do you think, Steph? Yeah, all right. She's like, she just stopped talking about it. Stop talking with that. Okay. Another color. We do? Probably in the second. All right. This is just a comment from something we talked about before about ramen noodles. This is from Michael Mother Masters of Sound ramen question. Michael Mothers, Masters of Sound. I like that. Hello, shipping container wizards. I agree that instant ramen is delicious. I really like the results from rehydrating instant ramen noodles, then pan frying it in oil with the contents of the seasoning pack. Optionally, a beaten egg can be poured in if you let the noodles set again into a disk rather than moving them around. Keep on moving on. Michael mother masters of sound. Right? like, why hate on the instant ramen noodles? They're, the feet of, yeah, mankind. Yeah, right. I love it. Since when are you on board? She just fucking messing with me. No, no, I think they are. Yeah, all right. I almost, I was so unused to Stas agreeing with me on anything. That, like, I almost, I almost lost a family show. Okay. Joe calls in. Hey, Dave, Hammer, and cooking... Oh, we got to call her. Call her. Line 7. Call her, you were on the air. Hey, is that me? Yeah. Cool. We actually we actually only have one line. We actually have one line, but we like to make it. have three. All right, all right. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, you're on the air. All right. Hey, how you doing, Dave? You guys are all great. I just want to tell you, I can hear an echo too. guess that's normal. Yeah. Um, so it was my 1st time calling in. Um, so my question is kind of cooking and related for Thanksgiving. Um, I've got some really cool, heavy gauge stainless steel drums, 55 gallon. looking to make a smoker out of them. I was thinking if I lined it with some kind of stone that might help with the heat capacity, anything I need to know about looking at what kind of stones to
+
+[22:50] use. Also, probably down the road at some point, I'll need to make a pizza oven out in the backyard. So what I need to know about stones is there, preference, heat capacity,
+
+[22:59] cook worthy. You know, can I use concrete pavers? Should I get clay? What are your thoughts? Don't use concrete pavers. is an excellent question. I actually am going to research this again in the next couple of months for the
+
+[23:11] spring because I'm going to be building a bread oven in the spring. I'm finally going to get a piece of dirt outside the city where I can do whatever in the hell I want. which is good. But the last time I researched in this in earnest, well, this is the 2nd part of your question was, unfortunately, like
+
+[23:26] 715 or sort of so years ago. And the book was by the 2 authors were last
+
+[23:33] name Wing, last name Scott, and it was called the Bread Builders something, right? And in that book is, and I'm sure it's outdated, but how outdated can a bread oven be, right? Stone bread oven. That book, and maybe Jack can look up the exact title of it while I'm here,
+
+[23:49] is fantastic, and it takes you kind of soup to nuts on like what to buy and how to build a stone bread oven or pizza oven. And it was, like I said, I'm sure there's like
+
+[24:03] newer references out there, but was kind of an awesome book and an eye opener for me in
+
+[24:07] general. And it also is fun because it highlights a bunch of people that have built them or
+
+[24:12] that are using them commercially. And so I think it's a good read. Again, I haven't read it in a long time and I'm sure it's outdated, but that was like the book back then.
+
+[24:21] So I would definitely take a look at it. is not too expensive. The breadbuilders. hearth loaves and masonry ovens. Yeah, is it still like liked on Amazon? Does it have positive stars on a check? Yeah, 4.5 . Yeah. All right. Well, I'm sure there's a newer book. Now, when it comes to lining a 55 gallon drum, that's something that I've done more recently,
+
+[24:38] well, not 55 gallon, but drum more recently. Here's what you got to look out for. One, I would burn the hell out of it beforehand to get rid of any paint or anything
+
+[24:46] on it. Is it naked? Oh, it's a stainless steel pharmaceutical food grade and it's clean and I had it cleaned before I took it, so it's good. Okay, cool. Now, there's a couple different things. If you don't want to go super permanent, you're going to want to always get kind of bricks that are meant to be heated, refractory style bricks,
+
+[25:04] right? And so for that, you're going to want fire bricks. Because they're super easy. You can score them and break them with a chisel when you want to put them
+
+[25:14] in and they're super cheap, right? And so you can do a layup with those things and then pack in between them with refractory cement and then, you know, you're kind of good to go. You can put a hole in the bottom of it for an air vent and put it
+
+[25:27] in and, you know, you're set. Whereas the last time I did it, I didn't have time to do anything. We were Nastasia and some of the, was it Cliff and Piper and I, we all, we built a tandor
+
+[25:38] in, at the SCI and we did it with, with, like a big flower pot.
+
+[25:43] And the problem with using something like that is they're going to shatter. Even if they can take the heat, they're gonna shatter eventually. So the fire bricks are going to give you a little bit of with like a layer of refractory cement is going to give you a little bit more leeway. Other ways you could go is you could build like a like pour a bottom, cast a bottom, drill a hole, right? make sure it's always refractory, like refractory cement. Pour it in. You don't really care if that cracks very much. And then you can build a form work, and you can even put some, you can put some, you know, wire
+
+[26:13] mesh, you know, on the inside to hold it, uh, and then pour almost like you're pouring form
+
+[26:18] work, concrete, uh, with a tube in it. I've done that as well, but I think you might want to just do something simpler like fire brakes to start to make sure that it's cooking the way you want because that, you could break down and reorganize if you didn't like it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I like that idea. That's good. Yeah, and then you can cast a lid if you want. You can just cast like a lid out of, or you could buy a, you know, a round, uh, a round pizza stone if you want, and, uh, you know, masonry drill through it to
+
+[26:47] make like a lift for it or something like this, and you could have a lid for it that way. Cool. All right. Thanks a lot. App appreciate it. and get that book. Another quick note for you guys just real quick. I heard, uh, on your last, uh, catch up, uh, episode. I've listened to all of your episodes and I've listened to this is my 2nd one live. So, just, you know, there's a lot of fans that don't talk to you live. I'm usually about a week or 2 behind for my commute's a lot shorter now. All right, good. I'm glad I'm glad you're listening live. Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention. You're going to want to test with the fire brakes on the, if you're going to use fire brakes or any sort of
+
+[27:19] insulation. You're gonna want a test to see how long it takes for the outside of the barrel to get too hot for you to be comfortable with and adjust like the thickness that you're
+
+[27:29] gonna want to go. So fire brick, you know, transmits heat at a certain kind of rate, and you might want to do like a, you know, sometimes you'll, like, on the sears all, we use a very, very light, light insulation all the way around it so that it doesn't transmit heat nearly. So the denser something
+
+[27:46] is, typically, for a given amount of heat conduction set of material has, typically the denser it is, the
+
+[27:53] stronger it'll be, but the faster it'll transmit the heat through. So you just want to make sure that you, that you're, you know, that you're, um, it's not transmitting so much heat to the outside that ends up being a problem. So you got to figure out whether you're talking about one layer, 2 layers, or maybe a
+
+[28:06] lighter refractory layer around the inside before you put the fire brick down. Okay, great. Hey thanks for the info too. All right. and happy Thanksgiving. Hey, you too. All right. Okay. Joe wrote in. He says, I make pretzels quite a bit, which is good because pretzels are delicious. I like pretzels quite a bit. They are like, you know, they're kind of like you can't be an Arnold without liking pretzels. It's kind of a thing. It's like Booker, you know, my older son came back. He like, dad, I don't like pretzels anymore. I was like, that's a lie. You're lying to me because we're like related. Like, you know, you look like me, like we have the same DNA. Therefore, you like pretzels. I was like, you know, you like pretzels. I like pretzels. My dad liked pretzels. My grandpa like pretzels. My great uncle Luke worked in a pretzel factory during the depression. They come from Pennsylvania. We eat pretzels. That's what we do. You're Arnold, you eat pretzels. Okay, uh, I make pretzels quite a bit, but I find that the pretzel salt will absorb into the bread over the course of the
+
+[29:05] day, leaving the bread with that uh, uh, leaving the bread without that pleasant salt crunch and considerably less attractive.
+
+[29:11] You're talking about soft pretzels here. By the way, I love New York City, right? I love it. We are kind of known for having our pretzels on the street. They universally suck. They are universally wretched. You know what I mean? Like the standard pretzel. Yeah, but if you're hungry in central cooks, you're like, oh, some mustard. Well, mustard, yes. But they're like, they're the gin and tonic of street foods because a street dog, whether it's filthy or not, is delicious.
+
+[29:39] It just is. You know what I mean? You know, whether the guy, whether he wiped his hands or washed himself before he served you the hot dog, the hot dog tastes good. Pretzels, one of 2 things happens. They're all, they, they, they packed them into those little boxes sometime in the morning, right? And they have no way to properly store a pretzel, the way that they do a hot dog. They store the hot dog in hot dog water. And the hot dog water. It keeps the hot dog at optimum temperature, optimum moisture, and optimum hot dog flavor, basically from now until the next ice age. They're good. The buns aren't hot and so they're fine. You know what I mean? Pretzels, they keep them hot, but they're either completely desiccated, in which
+
+[30:17] case, like, they're this awful in between thing. They're not a crunchy pretzel and they're not a soft pretzel. They're some sort of uh, uh, they just, they make me sad. Like, they make me just so sad that, uh, and you, you know, it's not even the 3 bucks. You know, they cost 3 bucks now some places. Yeah, if you go to a museum, anywhere near a museum, they're like 3 bucks now. Well, Madison Square Garden, they're probably like four. Yeah, yeah. well, my God. By the way, you know, I was at I was at Penn Station by Madison Square Garden yesterday, and this couple was like, you know, taking all these like tourist photos, I was like, you're standing in front of the ugliest building in all of Manhattan. You could have picked any building in Manhattan other than this one to do your tourist like antics. Like why the hell would it be that one? Which one? Right outside of Penn Station. By masses, you're like, oh, like across the street from the Kmart. They would have been better off shooting them in front of the Kmart than shooting in front of Penn Station. And there they are, like, and like the taxi guy and I were just laughing, like, what the hell is wrong with these people? Anyway, pretzels. I sure they're $4 there. I don't know. The other extreme is this thing that you describe, and it's also a problem with salt bagels, which is why I salt bagel. You can really only order the morning it's made. Take it home and eat it right away, is that if the bread still has any moisture left to it, it will get absorbed by the salt, the salt will weep
+
+[31:32] out, and you'll get that really ugly, wrinkled, like, remember the old guy from poltergeist? That sort of look on the outside of your pretzel, which is a nightmare. So now to the question. Uh, I'm using uh, Jeffrey uh, Halliman's recipe uh, with a coarse pretzel salt as applied to the bread uh, immediately after the lie dip, which is at a
+
+[31:50] 4%. Remember, you got to do alkaline with pretzels so to get that darkness. Otherwise, it just tastes like bagels, which is a mistake. Although, does anyone make a pretzel bagel? I'm sure they do. That'd be delicious. They make pretzel buns now, but a pretzel bagel. Take note, folks. Money dripping from dripping from the microphone. Uh, lie dip, which is a 4% concentration. Is there anything I can do to avoid this without impacting the taste, texture, look of it, or perhaps there would be a way to apply the salt right before service? I plan to make a batch early in the morning and serve for Thanksgiving dinner 8 to 12 hours later. Thanks, Joe. Okay, look, here's the deal. I went to a place, it was Washington, DC, where they have, like, the worst art for their food trucks, and they're all made by the same terrible person, and not a bad human, but
+
+[32:34] that artist, and they look terrible, and everyone there stores their pretzels saltless, and then wipes it with some sort of a mixture, and
+
+[32:42] then into the salt, and it was terrible. But that's what I would recommend doing anyway, even though it's horrible. Here's what I would do. If you don't mind kind of messing with the outside a little bit. I, what I would do is I would take the pretzels. And I do this when I do, uh, like, uh, Kumo and Vec, like, you know, the, uh,
+
+[32:59] the buffalo, like the beef on Vec, the, not with the caraway seeds and salt. What I would do is take the pretzels, make sure that they stay nice and
+
+[33:07] moist, don't let them dry out, right? And then, like a little more than even normal. Don't let them kind of flash off a little bit because you're going to heat them again. Then I know this is cheating. someone's going to get mad at me. I don't care really. I would do like an egg wash, like, uh, like, like, 50-50 egg white, uh, water, beat it up, then brush it on the pretzels at the last minute, put the salt back over top, just enough to wet the top.
+
+[33:29] Throw it back in the oven, fairly high heat for just a couple of minutes to flash off the moisture from the egg and to get it all
+
+[33:37] set. The pretzel, the salt will stick. I know this because I've done it before. It's going to work for you, and I think that's the best way to keep everything together. Yeah? Okay. Paul Peterson wrote in about Tempe. Do you like tempeh or tempeh? I say, Tim. Tempe. Tempe, Jack, A or E? Tempe is Arizona, I guess. I say Tempe and Allison's here and says the same. Tempe. Tempe. All right. Uh, Tempe. I had a few questions on vegetarian proteins, though I realize it's short notice for today's episode, but it's actually from 2 weeks ago, so it's no problem. No rush. I was curious if there's any advantage to sous vide for producing Satan. Typical stetan recipes involved mixing high gluten flour with water, flavor addives. We have to get all the starch out 1st anyway, whatever. And then either boiling for about an hour in water broth or roasting basting for the same amount of time. I'm wondering if the protein's set up at a lower temperature and a setan could then be bagged with some broth and cook with a circulator for longer times. I don't think there's going to be that much of an advantage really to using, um, a circulator? I don't mean, look, someone right in. I tried to look on herbivoracious and see whether he's done a lot of work with it. I don't know whether Eddie Shepard's done a lot of work with it. I don't see that the temperature control is going to be a big advantage here. However, vacuum bagging could be a big advantage because you can use smaller quantities of things to do boils and you can keep flavors, more concentrated. Also, you can lock volatiles in without boiling them off. So I could see a situation here where vacuum bagging would be a big advantage, but I don't know if you're
+
+[35:00] going to get a big advantage from actual temperature control. Yeah? Uh, but I don't know. And I'm willing to be told otherwise by someone who actually makes that a lot. Okay, next. I'm wanting to produce my own tempeh, but all the recipes I can find require adding a tempeh culture, but I never discuss how to reuse or grow one's own culture from
+
+[35:18] scratch or from a small amount of starter culture. Well, there are, there are some things on the web on how to use a small amount to do it. So I'm not going to get in that. start with the other one. Are there food safety issues? Issues. such that growing my own culture could potentially be dangerous, or is it just too much of a hassle and it's easier, quicker to continually buy used tempeh culture? Thanks, Paul Peterson. Okay. So, 1st thing you got to know is that, uh, so you've had Tempe, right? So Tempe, what it is, is you take the, what? What are you looking at? Are we getting kicked off? What? we got a couple minutes back. A minute, yeah. A minute? This is gonna take longer than a minute. A long minute. All right. Uh, so, uh, the, what's happening with Tempe is that you're getting growth in the, uh, in the beans that, and it's actually the mycelium growth that you're eating, and the, um, the organism that's responsible, uh, and I can never uh, pronounce anything, and all you all know this,
+
+[36:12] is uh, rhizopus, and I forget which rhizopus it is, but it's, uh, all these rhizopus, you know, species
+
+[36:20] of, uh, uh, of things that are that are growing. Now the question is, how do you get, from a wild starter, these things just growing?
+
+[36:29] And then the question is, because there are rhizopus strains that can make nasty, nasty things, right? Um, so what do you do? Well, it turns out that, and if you look up the book, the book that I would look up is from
+
+[36:42] microbiology, uh, is microbiology and technology of fermented foods, 2006,
+
+[36:48] uh, Robert Hudkins, I guess is the editor of it. And basically, asked whether or not wild fermentation is dangerous, given the fact that there are various
+
+[36:58] rhizopous strains that are that do make anterotoxins and things that are bad. This is the direct quote. As is the case with other mold fermented foods, e.g. soy sauce and miso. The wild or pure culture strains used for tempeh production do not produce mycotoxins. And so, uh, like, it's just, you know, shown here that, no, they just don't seem uh, to do it. And there's also, uh, there are new world strains of it, but the question is how do you get it? Well, it turns out that traditionally when people are making these things, they take hibiscus flowers. And specifically in Indonesia, this Indonesian hibiscus. And the leaves of the hibiscus have a preferential culture of these rhizopus
+
+[37:39] strains so that they literally wrap the leaves around the being let it grow that
+
+[37:46] way and that's how they get the culture. So if you have a hold of hibiscus leaves, maybe
+
+[37:51] a tropical US-based hibiscus leaves will give you the same sorts of results. You can try it, and apparently, it won't, according to this book, remember, not me saying it, I don't know, according to this book, when you're doing it, you know, according to the recipes, typically ones that don't kill
+
+[38:07] you are the things that grow. So if you can get something that looks like tempeh from wrapping it with a hibiscus leave, and you can find online, I would look up in that in that book, how to do
+
+[38:16] it. Um, you probably won't, uh, probably won't die. Right? Yeah? Although it sounds like it's going to be a lot easier just to make it. All right, listen, they're going to kick me off here. So I have more questions I got to get to. I got to get to Jasper and his clarification. I got to talk to Ken about Ken and his response to our safety thing. We got a bunch of other things, but we're going to have to get to him after Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy turkeys. Happy Thanksgiving. That was Nastasia cheering. Oh, and listen in. I think on Friday, we're going to be on all things considered, doing demonstrations. I don't think it's today. I think it's on Friday. You mention the radio show? I don't know what they're going to do. I don't know what. They're their own radio show. I think they're in the business of pumping us. think they like us. Anyway. All right. Well, check it out. Cooking issues.
+
+[39:10] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[39:25] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the
+
+[0:06] soil, and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Curd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you tonight. Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly, eh, 1245, 1250 on the Heritage Radio Network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer, Lopez, Jack in the Booth, and special guest star on today's show, Nick Wong. How you doing, Nick? You have to talk into the mic. He's just gonna sit there and he's gonna shake his head. So Nick's special mode of being guest is just going to be to lean back and go, you can't see it, but imagine someone looking back and closing their eyes almost,
+
+[1:06] almost, not 100% just back and forth now. No. No, no. Anyways, uh, so Nick was, uh, originally we met him at the French Culinary Institute. He was one of the tech interns, then go went to work at some. How long do you work at Sambar? The 1st time. Nick is killing me, brother. Two years. And then for some reason, he just, where, where do you go, then Gramercy or something like this? And then he went out, uh, where the hell did you go? Kris Constantino's place, uh, uh, Encanto. The no longer no longer extant Encanto. Chris has a new restaurant. And now, for some reason that escapes us, he's back at
+
+[1:47] Sambar. Right? Right, Stas? Listeners have no way of knowing if this guy's really in the studio. You could be making him up. It's like an imaginary friend, you know? You know what? going to have an imaginary lunch after this. have like imaginary pizza. And then he will then become my imaginary friend. The imaginary pioneer is not that good also. Oh, calling out their imaginary pie. What varieties of imaginary pie do they have here? There's there are a few. Yeah. Yeah, they have pecan pie? Or pecan? We already went through this on the air. Pecan or pecan? Oh, pecan. Because we're northerners. I think if you're from the south, isn't it pecan, if you're from the, no. Or is it the other way around? Pecan if you're from the north and Pecan if you're from the south. But we've had this discussion and I'll have it till the day I die. Goop or nuts? Goop or nuts? Jack, goop or nuts? don't even know what that question is. Hell, do you not eat pecan pie? Stas? Oh, goober. Oh nuts. Nuts? don't like it. Any variety of pecan pie? You don't like any variety of pecan pie? Is because you don't like pies, because you don't like crust, because you don't like biscuits, because you're bad? What about just the filling? Do you like pie filling? I don't like nuts a lot. So I don't like the nuts. Deez Nuts? There it is. Deez nuts. I have to get that. Do you know that there is a... Well, there is a company. First of all, our bar manager, D, is making a drink, I think, with nuts, and it's going to be called Deez Nuts, and there is a nut company, a legit nut company, out of Louisville, Kentucky, and I saw them on Twitter a couple weeks ago, and their their Twitter, their thing is, these
+
+[3:31] nuts, because it's, you know, D, and they sell nuts. Spelled D. Apostrophe S, nuts. So it's very similar except for the Z. Of course, you know, whole groups of people enjoy using a Z instead of an S. Jack. I would imagine you might occasionally. No, I'm not a Z guy. Come on, Jack. Back in the day. Yeah, sure. When you were downloading, when you were downloading programs, were they wares? Yeah. Wow, what a reference. Yeah. Wow. Try to keep current on stuff from like 10 years past. Like I'm very current on what was going on 10 years ago. So, this is our 1st time back from Thanksgiving. So Stas actually had a question. I don't know if I was supposed to say it's from her or not, but this is the 1st time the Sasha's ever written a question into this. This is big. Oh, well, maybe she wrote a big one. And just not told me? Maybe you just ignored her. Like, who Nick's talking? Oh, no, she totally busted him. So here's the 1st thing I know of, question from Nastasia. When your friend is overcooking a turkey at his house, his house,
+
+[4:38] remember? Can you tell him to take it out of the oven or give him any type of direction, especially if he thinks
+
+[4:45] the turkey needs another hour? This is an etiquette question. Well, it's an etiquette. We've answered etiquette questions before here on the radio, like regarding whether or not you're allowed to mess with people's tomatoes and then we got Daniel in as a result. So here's the thing. First of all, uh, it's a tough, it's a tough call. I think a lot depends on how much gravy they're making. How much gravy were they making? A lot. 33 boats worth. Okay, and were they giving you sharp knives? No. Well, were there mashed potatoes? Yeah. So you could conceivably take each piece of shoe leather. Slice it into tiny little niblets, surround the niblets with mashed potatoes, and then drench it in gravy, and choke down one slice in your out. And you don't have to deal with the leftovers because they're not in your kitchen, right? So it's not your sandwiches that he's ruining. So no, I don't think you can say anything to it. them. I think maybe you can be like, I think you're allowed one of these. Shoulders go up, head goes aside a little bit. Maybe maybe it's done. I think you're allowed one of those, you know? I think maybe you know. I think maybe it's done. Because, and then like, if you're a really good friend, you're allowed to say, listen, you know that little bit of the meat near the thigh that you're worried about is not
+
+[5:56] cooked? That's really not that big a deal. We can slice that off and just pan it later. Really, you don't want to overcook the whole breast and the thigh and the rest of the leg and stuff like that for the sake of that one little piece of meat down by the thigh,
+
+[6:07] that we all know, worst comes to worst, I just cut it off and throw it in the microwave for about a minute and a half
+
+[6:11] now that that little nugget of meat is done, right? No one ever gets down to that part of the turkey anyway, except for my house. Oh, yeah. But my point is that that you're allowed to say. Then if they're like, then you, all right. That's it. Another hour. And just, you know, although I heard you got busted because I asked you about this. I was like, well, the one good thing about a badly overcooked turkey is usually the skin's pretty good. Right, but I didn't get any skin. Do you know Johnny Hunter from the, yeah, the Underground Food and Meats Collective in Madison, Wisconsin. We visited a while ago. Great folks. He did the bionic turkey. Sweet. Bionic turkey lives on. Nick, if he was to ever speak, did that once with us, I think maybe twice. He did it with us twice or once. I don't think he did it. Just once. You didn't come to do it at my house with me? You were in San Francisco at the time. I think you brought it in to circulate FCI, but... No, anyway. So I've done a bio turkey, I think, 3 times now, but Johnny did it and I was awesome. So he posted on Twitter, so go look on Johnny Hunter's Twitter account for his
+
+[7:17] bionic turkey, or I retweeted it if you have my Twitter at cooking issues. I did not do the bionic turkey this year because I wanted to go super simple this year for me, super simple. So what I did was, I went to the Pollo Vivo place up 117th Street between like 1st and 2nd Avenue, picked out my live turkey. They didn't have the wild turkey of reasonable size this time. you know, the, you know, the Oajalote style. They only had the little ones. And I wasn't going to feed all those people with like a, like a £15 turkey live. That's like £12 turkey in real life. That's like, it's like me. I can eat that. Anyway. So I got the live turkey. Let it rest a day, right? I suggest people do this. the easy, the easy, the easy, complicated way. This is the easiest complicated turkey I've ever done. Then, you know how when you teach you to bone out birds, you bone out, like you cut down the breast and you bone out so that you then roll it back up, but usually you don't cut the, you don't cut down the back of the animal.
+
+[8:07] You know what I'm saying, Nick? Right. So anyway, so this one I boned out by cutting down the back of the turkey, ripped out the carcass, ripped out the thigh bones, left in the legs. Are you believing in taking out the wishbone before you bone out a bird or not? Jackie Peps, that's Jacques Pepin for all of you out there. Jackie Peps always takes the wishbone out of the bird before he does the, which I think makes sense if you're going to carve the breast off of it because then you don't lose that little bit like where your knife goes
+
+[8:32] around. Nils never used to take the bone out. I can't decide whether I like taking the bone out or not. Now it's just a habit. You take the bone out or not. Which one? So you lose that little negative meat? You can you can put the knife in the other set? Yeah. You kind of come at it with a knife in a different angle. My kids, for the 1st time this year, did the wishbone. Booker lost. Dax was super happy because Dax knows the grip up high and like yank hard trick and then snapped it off and left Booker with this little stub of wishbone. And Dax was like, yeah, like running around the house with the wishbone. I was like, you're not going to get, like, they both wish for crap. not gonna get. Neither of them are like, you know, I want like, you know, a candy bar or some crap that
+
+[9:08] like I might actually get them. I bet Booker wanted something you're going to get for him for Christmas. No, they both wanted like a $1000 a day or something like, you know, something stupid that you're not
+
+[9:17] going to get out of. People need to like, like, is it that I'm all for dreaming big, but don't dream stupid. know what I mean? What if you just wish to win the wishbone competition? For next time, you mean? Or like a retroactive wish. You're like, you won as you pull it, you've won. Exactly. See, that's why I like Nick. Yeah. Yeah, sweet. I love that. All right, done, done. I won, done. And granted. One, granted. Anyway, the simul win grant. I like that. So anyways, so I had the turkey, so now you have the bones. The great thing about boning out of turkey. I say this a 1000000000 times. one more time. You have the bones to make the stock. So you bone that sucker out, dry salt it, stick it in a Ziploc bag. Now the turkey fits in your fridge, no problem. No problem. In a ziploc with no bones, big turkey fits in the fridge, in the little Crisper drawer. Anyways, salted, sitting overnight, take the bones, roast them off, bought extra bones because that's how I am. May the stock in the pressure cooker, duh, coon recon, no venting. Uh, let it come down. Then, the next day, when I made the, I injected the stock into the, I salted, took some of the stock,
+
+[10:19] boil it down, salted it up, injected the stock into the, into the breast meat and the legs and stuff, not water stock, then with a meat injector, then made the stuffing plug, right?
+
+[10:30] The giant stuffing plug, carcass shaped stuffing plug, circulated that at like 80 Celsius to heat the whole stuffing plug up, like sterilize it, you know, pasteurize it pretty
+
+[10:39] quickly, and uh, and uh, heat it through, then use that as an inside heater,
+
+[10:43] drape the turkey around the stuffing plug, like based in, boat ton of butter on it, and then threw it in the oven, so it was cooking from both sides at
+
+[10:51] once using the stuffing plug is my heat reservoir. Mm, mm, mm. Turkey. One, it was like one. 2 hours done. And and other advantage is because the skin is wrapped around the
+
+[11:03] side, really you're cheating and you're putting the skin that is underneath, right on the bottom of the outside, all the skin crisp. Oh, skin crisp. And delicious. Yeah. Anyway. As opposed to Stas's turkey and Jack's turkey. Did you have, which, they sucked. Uh, Nick, uh, how is uh, actually, Jen liked this even better than bionic turkey. I don't know whether it's just because there wasn't the headache of me frying or what. Probably. Yeah. No, it's definitely the reason. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick, would you do a turkey? I did not do turkey. Would you do? I went over to Mindy's place for Thanksgiving dinner. Oh, Mindy, who ran the intern program for a long time. How is Mindy's turkey? Is good. Yeah? What did she do? Street regular roast. I didn't have to tell her that it was overcooking because she knows better. Right, then to that mean, because she did, but she did not overcook it? No. Turkey was good? Yes. Gravy? I made the gravy, so yes. Was that you roasting bones and salmon? a couple days before Thanksgiving. It smelled awesome like turkey stock and song. Probably because we're making boatloads of turkey gravy. strong. All right. So enough of Thanksgiving. I don't think I have any other Thanksgiving things to report. Anything else good or bad on Thanksgiving? Anything to report? Is that the end? Thanksgiving? We can't talk about Thanksgiving now until next year. We can talk about it, Jack. What do you want to talk about? You want to talk about Thanksgiving? No I got nothing. Thanksgiving Thursday. Yeah. So, uh, another thing I want to say, you guys seen the movie The Jerk? Yeah, you seen the jerk? So, Stas, for some reason, Nastasia, like, likes to claim that she's never seen any movie prior
+
+[12:48] to, like, 1995. She's like, that's old. Like, meanwhile, like, I've seen, like, you know, movies from the 20s, 30s teens. So like, especially any comedy movie in like the 70s or 80s, she's like,
+
+[12:59] no, what stripes? Who's Bill Murray? What? saddles and stripes. They're great movies and like... Oh, you haven't seen the jerk. I can't believe this One of my favorite movies is Young Frankenstein, and you know that. It's great movie. am really angry right now. You sound it. Because I feel like... You sound like Mike Dukakis. You sound like Mike Dukakis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, but you haven't seen the jerk? So you'll enjoy this, Stas. silent now, like Nick. Fake silent, imaginary silent. Yeah. Oh. Wow. Whoa, she just gave them, oh, harsh. Anyways. So in the jerk, and I'll tell you why I feel this way. Anastasial Enjoys, in the jerk, there's a famous section where Steve Martin is the lead character
+
+[13:45] and the jerk, and he's an idiot. He's not just a jerk. He an idiot, right? So at one point, he's working in a gas station and the phone book comes and he's like, the phone book, my
+
+[13:54] name and print, the phone book, finally, like, like, Grace, that's gonna happen to me. My name's in print. I'm in the phone book and the guy's like, what the hell? in the phone book. And then, like, literally the next scene is like a psycho sniper who opens the phone book at a random page and
+
+[14:07] goes, like, Nathan R. Johnson, typical bastard. And then like go dries out in a truck and tries to kill Steve Martin at the gas station with like a sniper rifle,
+
+[14:16] right? And so it's like, you know, classic like guy thinks he's getting somewhere, but really it's stupid because who cares about where they were in the phone book, but that random thing does happen to shaft him in life.
+
+[14:26] And so that's what I'm living right now with Amazon. So like, uh, what's happening with Amazon? So like, I'm like, oh, we're in Amazon. My name's in the phone book. And like, uh, because we have the series all supposedly on sale. Amazon hosed us, how hard it, by the way, Sears always on sale on Amazon, right? But they like, they, like, no one understands what the hell's going on. Wherever we have something going wrong with Amazon in this series all, like everyone is like, it can't be Amazon. Amazon is a well-run large company and it must be you guys who are inconfident and stupid. And like, no, you don't understand. People, right? Styles, people just don't get how crazy. Well, that's also true. But like, the fact that the matter is, is like, it's like, oh, my God. I can't even get into it. Then, so Amazon hoses this and they say they're not going to sell the series alls on Black Friday, even though we swore in a stack of Bibles that they were in stock, which they are. They're at Amazon's warehouse. Stas and I are up there at midnight, you know, Thanksgiving, like, well, she was, I don't know,
+
+[15:20] what, an hour earlier, some crap 11 because Ohio's on our time zone. Anyways. So she's like, she's there and like, we're like, and what? And, like, they wouldn't let us sell live. That was it. And like people started, some idiots like sent us in like, so what? They're asleep at the too much turkey. Meanwhile, Nastasia are up at, like, midnight, trying, like, they thought we fell asleep and we're sitting there like, what the hell? What the hell? And Amazon, even though all of their customer service is not in the United States of America. Maybe they have like 5 guys in Washington who are in the United States of America, right? But they have a boot ton of people who are customer service who have nothing to do with the United States of America, right? Yet those guys also get Thanksgiving off. What the hell is that about? No customer service on the Thanksgiving, trying to get the stuff selling. By that time it was Black Friday, though. which you would think Amazon would be on top of. Right? So, so they're like, well, you can't. And then, like, all of a sudden, Sears all gets flagged as a hazmat device, meaning that it's hazardous
+
+[16:14] material because in the, it uses the word torch, I guess, or gas or something in the
+
+[16:20] text. So the computer, because they have some sort of like dumb NSA algorithm, like searching it for like terror and hazmat crap. It's like, uh, yeah, this might be hazmat, so maybe we shouldn't sell this thing. So bang. And then it says, could take maybe 42 48 hours for us to look at it maybe longer. So we're like, what the what? remember this? So I get a guy on the phone at 8 when they opened up in the morning next morning. And he's like, yeah, you're pretty much shafted. He's like, you have one option. He's like, I was like, they're all in your warehouse. He's like, yeah, so here's what we're going to do. We're going to put it on sale on the Amazon website, but really you're selling it, not us. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, you're selling it, not us. I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, well it means that you have to ship it. I was like, yeah, but you have all of our seersols. And the guy's like, yeah, I know. So what then you'll have to do you'll then have to make your own separate order to ship out from our warehouse as your own self to these customers. So we're like, I was like, what? I was like, then if you're gonna if you're gonna accept an order. And then you're going to let me ship the order from your warehouse, why don't you just take the order and ship the
+
+[17:22] order? And they're like, no. No. And there is no, this is what people aren't going to believe. They're not going to believe this. There is no way on the computer to say,
+
+[17:33] hey, Amazon, this chunk of 300 orders that you got in, right? This chunk, right? Really, those are your orders. Can you just ship them out and track them? No. And when you when we use Amazon to ship? I'm sorry, this is boring people, but I just have to get off my chest. When you use Amazon to ship as like a, as we're a seller,
+
+[17:52] they don't guarantee they're going to ship it out in a reasonable amount of time, even when you pay expediting, which I did for all of the
+
+[17:59] series alls that got ordered. I pay the extra expediting. I totally hosed because I didn't want people to not have it prime speed, right? They don't guarantee that. However, the orders that they took in your name and gave to you, they expect to get out in a reasonable amount of time and you get
+
+[18:13] danged if you don't get them out. What? I hate them. And then in the middle of this, and this is where the jerk where they came to my mind in the phone book. They also ran out of stock on liquid intelligence for no reason, even though I called my publisher and it's been sitting in the warehouse waiting for their pickup for like a week and a half , they had copies of
+
+[18:31] liquid intelligence. Oh, did they not get an interview? Was that the thing? They didn't do the interview? They're a publisher. They should know how to get a book to the whatever anyway. So, yeah, for some reason, like, I got, I got, I got randomly selected in the phone book for, like, singling out by Amazon.com. I'm Bezos's random whipping boy of the day. enough of that. Uh, so anyways, um, We got some questions in other than Nastasia's turkey questions. So let's, you know, I'm going to do in reverse. Crap on that. I'm not going to do it yet last week's now because they're not on my phone now. I'm going to do this week's, and then I'm going to go back. You like the 1st question? All right, so I'll do it. So now you get to know what Nastasia likes because she apparently likes this question. From Jeff Moore in Jersey City. Let's here at Jersey. Anything for Jersey? No love for Jersey City. Jack, any love for Jersey City? Jesus. Wow. He's like, won't even pick up the mic for Jersey City. I think maybe he's in the bathroom. No, I'm here. Oh, there's no love for Jersey City. I'm gonna give some love out to Jersey City. What's all the hate on Jersey City? Wow, damn. Damn. All right. I've been enjoying the liquid intelligence book, but I was wondering, oh, this is why, Staj, you're such an evil person. This is gonna give an idea of how evil Nastasia is, people. She just loves to break them. Like, like, she loves to break them. If she had them, she would break her own because she loves to break them so much. Uh, I've been enjoying the liquid intelligence book, but I was wondering if there's a published
+
+[20:00] errata list, so I can mark up my book with any corrections which have accumulated so far. I haven't been able to find one at the publisher site or at cookingissues.com, nor have my attempts at Google Foo, found at Google Foo. That, you know, she used to work at, uh, at, uh, Sombar and a PDT. Karen Food is her name, not Google Food, but now Google Food is the name. Found it for me. Thanks. And keep doing what you do, Jeff Moore. All right, Stas, you evil person, you. Only likes it. You remember that song? Remember that group, garbage. Yeah. I'm only happy when it rains. Yeah, that is Nastasia. That is that is Nastasia. He's only happy when it's complicated, you know? Yeah, she feels so good, feels so bad. She's only happy when it rains. So what was the question again? Published erata. Okay, there is not. I am thinking of printing up a sheet, though, to carry around with me. Uh, and maybe give it the publisher. Um, So the basic, there's nothing, the only thing in there that I know of that actually would affect a recipe is in the Manhattans for
+
+[21:02] two, uh, the vermouth is written down as a fat 3 quarters of an ounce, and I think it's a fat one in 3 quarters, I
+
+[21:09] think, is the thing. I have to look at exactly what the thing is, but the middle liter number is right. So if you follow the milliliter number there, but go look at the Manhattans for two, and that number is wrong. The other main issue, the issues that I found is that in the classics cocktail section at the end with
+
+[21:27] it, where you have the chart of all the things, they, they, well, somehow they, the, the acid numbers got messed up in the befores, but not in the
+
+[21:36] after. So it's not going to affect the recipes, except for the vermouth listening in the in the double Manhattan experiments. I haven't seen any, uh, like erada that actually mess up the, um, mess up the recipes. I will say in the in the reprint, I'm probably going to lower the frozen daiquiris. I might, I'm going to lower the lime juice a little bit, little bits, little bits, in retrospect, I might lower it little bits. So there's nowhere he can go. I just gave it to him. If you're listening, I just gave him the answer. And then, like, in the next one, it's like, there's no printed sheet yet. Oh, you know what? I think you should call Nastasia. I'll give her your cell number over the next radio program and you can call her for the errata list. How about that? Does that sound, Nick, sound like a good idea? Yeah. I give you a hint. It's in California. So it's like, she still has like, like, she still has this 1st cell phone she got when she was like,
+
+[22:31] like, 12 from Covina, California, she still has the, the, the area code. My 1st cell phone was in New York City. So I still have like an honesty guy New York City cell phone and half since, you know what, Booker actually wants a 34, whatever it is, instead of he has a
+
+[22:43] 917, he has a 917. I have a 212. on your cell phone? How the hell did you do that? Someplace in Queens. Like, what do you mean? Like, you go there and you're like, yo, give me the 212. I was young. I don't know. They were just like, you want 2 and two? I was like, yeah, take it. Of course you do. You pretend to be Manhattan forever. right. Yeah. Anyways. Also, I've never been to Jersey City, really. Sure it's a great place. Have you been to the Hoboken? Not really. I don't spend much time Jersey. I was once, I had to go to Hoboken. Mozzarella is great there, by the way. Have we talked about on a show? Yeah, mozzarella there is great and worth going to. Read anything that Joshua Zirski wrote about mozzarella and to find suggestions there. But the only real time I've spent there other than that was back when I used to work at the lawyer's office, uh, this is how little work that we did, they, this is before Powerball
+
+[23:28] was in New York, they literally put me on a train to go buy the office's Powerball tickets in Hoboken. Keep in mind, I was their computer consultant. So I was like theoretically making a decent wage, you know, much more decent than I have made sense. And yet I, like, I was put on a, on a train over to Hoboken to buy lottery tickets.
+
+[23:49] We didn't win, which we didn't win. I don't know where that fact. Okay. Can we take our 602nd spot very quickly, so we have more time. All right. Okay, here we go.
+
+[24:04] It is so exciting to have this new medium. Posting after that jump has been a huge part of me transitioning from being a blogger to somebody who has sort of
+
+[24:15] real important conversations with people in real life. My show, I kind of describe it as an audio trade magazine. I learned a ton from the guests every week, whether it's at restaurants, bars. Oh, the hosted heritage all come from different perspectives. Everyone should be listening to this. If you're interested in conservation and practical approach to renewable food sources, you know, not this big industry. Whether it's history, laws, social policies of food. I think people now take food seriously, and hopefully what's on their plate will become something very special.
+
+[24:52] And I feel that podcasting has a future, giving people information in a format they can really use on the go. We need your support to keep these conversations going. To donate visit heritageradionetwork.org backslash donate. We need your support. Give us your support, right? Yeah that was it. Support that. You don't talk like that though. See it? Like, you can never judge what someone actually sounds like based on my invitation because that's
+
+[25:19] my, like, 80 year old lady from, like, the outer burrows. And your Jack Insley impression? Yeah, well, I don't know. I just like, no, it's like, I don't know. No, no. No, my normal jack impression is using my normal voice. I don't really have a U. I don't have like, you sound normal to me, so I don't have like a real impression for you, you know? Well, it's giving Tuesday. So if any cooking issues listeners want to donate, um, that would be awesome. Show your support if you like the show. Is tomorrow giving Wednesday? No, actually, Nick decided what tomorrow was. What's tomorrow He can't say. I can't say. Oh, can't say it on the radio. It's SE Wednesday. SA Wednesday? No, S.A. S. We can come up with another word, maybe. Dash
+
+[25:57] Y, Wednesday. I don't know. I don't even... You'll tell me afterwards. By the way, I know what I forgot to talk about, people. WD50 closed. I went on Sunday to the final, uh, the final meal and they had like a family meal party yesterday, they already taken down the neon
+
+[26:14] sign, and... Sad. But he's ending on a high, like, at 1st I was like, you know, because I, you know, I talked to some people about it. I was like, oh, well, he's ending on a really high note. no better reason to have to end a restaurant than they're going to knock the building down and they paid you, you know, money to get out. You know what I mean? They're like, they paid you a bunch of money to give up a successful business so they could knock the building down and build like an
+
+[26:34] ugly, stupid high-rise, right? It's about the best way to leave a restaurant. Uh, you know, and uh, but still, when you're there, and then you were like,
+
+[26:44] oh my god, it's a restaurant, like all these people now need to have fine new jobs. I spoke to a lot of people and like, you know, I think a lot of the folks there have, uh, you know, found other good places to go, but, you know, I hope they all have wish, wish everyone from WD, uh,
+
+[26:58] good future. Great restaurant, end of an era. Um, okay. Hello, Dave and Hammer, emailing you live from Putin's new Bazantia, Moscow, Russia. Do they have like, like, imagine like, uh, they should have announcing like that over there, do they? I'm not going to do it in my Russian accent though. I have an okay fake Russian accent. Anyway, congrats on the new well he's not the guy is writing's not Russian though. He's English. Anyway. 80s name. Congratulations on the book. As I read it, I can hear Dave's disembodied voice in my head, which worries this Englishman. Yeah, right. It worries Nick too. Nick's got like a like a Dave voice face, which is similar to Nastasia's vegan face on right now. You've reignited my need for a fuse, that centrifuge to those of you not in the know. On this post below, you mentioned that the size of the Xuan 3 liter rotor affects the G's pulled versus the lighter champion E- 34, so that 834, I thought it was an
+
+[27:51] E 33, maybe C 34 now, you know, things get better. So the, uh, the, the deal is both of them, uh, I think actually the
+
+[27:57] Juan Arjuan goes at around 4000 RPM and the little guy goes at like 3000 and change because it's run off of an induction motor and that's just the speed that it runs.
+
+[28:07] Um, So here's the deal. Like, uh, you can't, the rotor size does make it, let me finish your question. However, how can I or where can I look up and work out what a one. 2 liter 4000 RPM Juan benchtop Fuge does. Is there a simple equation between mass, RPM and time that I need to know? Well, mass doesn't matter. Massive matter. Mass irrelevant. The only things you need to know are the radius of your rotor and the speed at which the rotor goes in RPM. And yeah, you'd look up just look up on the Wikipedia RCF. that's R, like, Richard C, like, C, F, like, F, and it stands for
+
+[28:43] relatives, centrifugal force, and basically, you need to know the mean rotor, whatever they're going to take is the rotor diameter radius, depending you have to look at it, usually in millimeters, and then the speed in RPMs, and it'll calculate the relative centrifugal force for you.
+
+[28:57] And there's like JavaScript calculators all over everywhere because this is stuff that people have to do
+
+[29:01] every day. So then you just need to know the radius of your rotor, which is easily findable on any one of the websites and the thing. here's what I'm here to tell you. Well, for a given bucket, for a given rotor,
+
+[29:13] the speed of the centrifuge is super important because it's the number of
+
+[29:19] G's that are going to determine what the separating power of the centrifuge is. However, it's not the only number that's important. So, on a spinning bucket rotor, right, you need a relative, which is what we have with the, with the, with the
+
+[29:31] Jwan, with the big one that I use, you need a relatively high number of G's not to clarify, right? Uh, you need a relatively high number of G's to compact all of the crap into the bottom of the bucket and have it so that when the
+
+[29:46] center fuse uh, stops, it doesn't refloat up back into the stuff. That's what you need all the extra G's for over the 1st like, you know, that 2000, right? The extra 2000 G's that you need in that are really just to smash the pellet tough so that it doesn't resuspend when you spin down. And that's also why you need to spin it for like 10, 15 minutes and not for 5 minutes because the stuff is really clear inside of like 3 to 5 minutes, but it's just not densely packed in the bottom.
+
+[30:11] Now, like how well it packs is dependent upon a couple of things. One is the, the, you know, the speed of the centrifuge, the number, the amount of G forces it has, but also how far the pellets need
+
+[30:24] the particles need to travel through the liquid before they smash. And for a spinning bucket rotor, they need to travel a relatively long distance. And they're getting forced directly into a big flat plate, so they need a relatively large amount of force to smash them down into a
+
+[30:37] pellet into a puck. Uh, in a, in a fixed angle rotor where they, where the sides of the rotor are at an angle and the liquid hits them and then the,
+
+[30:46] uh, the particles hit the sides and then slide down, those things kind of grind the particles into a pellet
+
+[30:52] faster, and so they can work with uh, lower G's. So a fixed angle rotor is going to give you easier clarification at lower
+
+[31:01] G's in a swinging bucket, but the swinging bucket is typically going to have a higher capacity.
+
+[31:06] Does that make any sense? Yeah, hope that helps. iPhone thinks I want to take a picture instead of helping you guys with your questions. It's wrong. It's wrong. Um, okay. And okay, that's it for them. We're gonna go on to last week's questions. Uh, which I'm gonna uh, call up. You want to say anything, Nick, while I'm looking up last week's questions? The answer better be yes, or I'm going to do terrible things to your pizza. Just terrible things. Nothing. You're a bad person. You're never invited on the radio program again. Uh, never. Never. Uh, okay. So, uh, The last question we asked
+
+[31:45] was the pretzel one, right? Do we talked about Tempe last week? Or 2 weeks ago? Yeah, we did. All right. And we talked about, can, man, maybe we got, maybe we got everything. No, that's like, I know we missed a whole bunch. Oh, I know what happened. They never made it onto Dropbox. I had to send them into the into the email thing. Hmm. All right. All right, people, I apologize. And since Nick is such a low quality human being. You know what? Before we came on, when I came in late because of my bike, he thinks it's freaking hilarious, I'm going to hit him with, I'm going to hit him with a lead pipe as soon as this is over. But, uh, he was telling all kinds of stories back from the, uh, yeah. Yeah. All kind of stories about like, you know, uh, me hitting him with lead pipes, how much I could hit him, wish I could hit him with a lead pipe. All right. Here we go. Okay, so we got the lemon sorbet question. we got the ramen, we got the salt, we got the tempeh. We did not get to freezing, right? Did we? Did we talk about freezing? Depends on what it is now. The gin and juice with the freezing? No. Okay. Another Dave here from the UK. Love your show. Only stumbled across it a few months ago and wish I'd found it years ago. I've been working through the archives. and they make great listening whilst I'm pottering about in the kitchen pottering. I never heard that in a long time. What do you think, Stas? You pro? No. not pro pottery? No. Puttering. Puttering. Puttering. Well, no, maybe it's in the UK. I don't know Maybe you potter in the UK. I don't know. I don't spend much time over there. I've already heard a ton of useful information, but he spells the English ton. Are you for the English ton? 2 N's and an E? No. No? No. Of useful information for listening to you, which inspires me to try new things in the kitchen. I feel I've learned so much that I thought I'd better do the decent thing and help support the show. So I signed up and became a heritage radio network member the other way. Keep up the good work. Sweet. This is from Dave W. Um, I have a quick question. I bought your book and started off by making a gin and juice. I wrote a blog post about it. I saw that, actually. You say what you obviously saw as you made a comment on it. Thank you. So the Agar clarification process for the grapefruit is very straightforward and works very well, but it takes about 3 days. That's not really helpful if you suddenly have an urge for a spontaneous cocktail. I was wondering if I can make up a larger batch of clarified juice and freeze it in smaller portions enough for a couple of drinks. How well would it keep in the freezer? Would it lose anything over time? It's already been frozen once during the process. I figure it's worth trying. I just wondered if you had an opinion. Thanks, Dave W. Yeah, you could totally freeze it. So grapefruit juice freezes quite well. Clarify grapefruit juice freezes quite well. Clarified apple juice freezes quite well. Uh, clarified uh, lime and lemon juice? No, not so much. They still taste like poison. Not as much. You know, I did a study of pre-mixed drinks that were frozen for a long time versus kept
+
+[34:40] at room temperature. And the room temperature ones did taste more poisonous with the lemon and lime juice in
+
+[34:45] them, then the one in the freezer. But the one in the freezer still tasted poisonous to me. And you know what I'm saying when I'm saying poisonous, right? Like not actually like poison, but you know that like poisonous taste, that detergent, poisonous, like real lemon, like fake, like crap hole, like 70s supermarket
+
+[35:00] flavor, familiar with it. You might know it from such things as like the skinny, like margarita, that skinny, like, lady margarita, like her, that tastes like poison to me. You ever had one of those things? poisonous. It tastes poisonous, right? Why have you had one of those? You've done events where it's there and then they made, remember, we went to an event and they made your drink and they used like stuff like
+
+[35:22] that. Oh my god. No, remember, and we threw it away and we had to go get new. And I've had also, I was, I remember we were at one of these shows, I think it was called the fancy food show. I think it was that one in Javits, and this portion is like, I make, you know, frozen lime juice, concentrate lime
+
+[35:38] juice, and I was like, I hate it. He's like, no, ours is really good. I'm like, but buddy. I hate it. Like, like, he's like, no, try it. I'm like, okay. And the best I could give him was, it's not as terrible as the rest of the poisonous stuff that I'm used to tasting, which is
+
+[35:51] true, which is true. Actually, this is strange. You know how I think lemon chillo tastes poisonous. I actually had a really good lemon cello the other day. I'm going to be using a tails of cocktails at the bar. Do you like livincello? Depends if it's really good. Yeah, doesn't most of it taste like poison? Like detergent, like pledge. Knicks feel the same way? What about Jack? You live in cello guy? Yeah, it's either that pledgy taste or like too sweet. It's hard to find. I like it when it's got both the lemon pledge flavor and the too sweet. That's the best. That's the best. Anyways, I don't know what the hell I was talking about that. So yeah, those things taste like poison. So don't do that, but grapefruit juice, all that stuff is fine. What I would do is if you're going to freeze it. There's a couple ways to freeze it. Uh, ziploc bag, freezer ziploc bags. If you put like however much you want, and then lay them flat on, you know, lay them, like close them like you were going to bag a steak for low temp, put your finger in it, and then like let the air out slowly on a flat counter, pinch it at the
+
+[36:50] end so there's no air bubbles in it. And then just put them on a sheet tray in your freezer until they freeze in a flat configuration.
+
+[36:58] That's the best way. And then you can like stack a lot of them in the freezer. You don't have to worry about it. And they freeze relatively quickly, and because they're flat, they unfreeze relatively quickly, which is also good. And if you're in a good ziploc bag like that, you can throw it into a pan of water and just run warm water on it and thaw it out
+
+[37:14] without like overheating or anything super quickly. If you freeze it in core containers, it takes forever for them to thaw out and it's a huge pain in the butt. And plus also when you drop a quart, when you drop a frozen core container, it cracks. And there's always like, here's what always happens. You pull it out of the freezer, you drop it a little bit, or it cracks, or someone throws something into the freezer, and it cracks the core container. You pull the core container out. You don't know it's cracked until it starts thawing, and the stuff starts leaking out all over it. Here's the real problem with that. Not only that, but the stuff that thaws out 1st is all the sugar and flavor. And so all the sugar and flavor leach out and you're left with a crappy ice cube, and then you're still going to try and use it for a drink because it's all you've got and you feel bad because you wasted all this product. all his time on. So what I'm telling you is don't use the core container. Another alternative? If you know you're only going to make a really like couple, couple of drinks at a time. It's not as ideal from a storage standpoint, but you freeze this stuff down in ice cube trays. They're never going to get as firm as a real ice cube because of the sugar and whatnot. But then pop them, don't leave them in the ice cube trays. rookie move. Pop them out of the ice cube trays, put them in a ziploc container in the fridge, and then you can pull them out cube by cube. Just make sure you measure beforehand the volume of your ice cube trays so you know how much juice is in each cube. And you'll find that if you're decent at it like, you know, your cubes are going to be pretty accurate to within, like, you know, way less than a quarter of an ounce per cube. And so you'll be able to accurately judge how much juice you're going to add,
+
+[38:36] but by throwing certain number of cubes in. Then you can do stuff like the juice shape from the book anyway, whatever. What if he wants to use a liter container? Instead of a, because he's English? Hardy, hardy. Actually, in fact, you know, I found out that most people over the world don't have core containers. Like, like, even when I say most people all over the world, like San Francisco doesn't use core containers. They find them to be ungreen. That's a lie Oh, maybe in Encanto, they used them, but how many restaurants did you go to? Did you like your friends you went to and you're like, where's the core container? And they're like, what is that? Is it green and made of bamboo, right? Come on now. We worked a bunch of events and stars in San Francisco and we can never get freaking cork containers over there. I think they're green because you use them over and over and over again. I've had the same core containers for years. Do you find them to be bad for the environment? If you don't throw them away? Yeah, they're fine. They're fine, right? Yeah, all right. Anyways. Uh, liter containers. So they don't have a ton with a 2 ends and an E. So what about that? What size ziploc bags do they have over there? A 4 liter ziploc? Yeah, instead of a gallon? A liter a liter bag. Yeah, but what like a gallon bag is the one we use. the baller size. like what are those? 4 liters? A 2 liter bag, 4 liter bag? What do they have? We don't even have a 2 liter bag here. don't know. Okay. Uh, did we do the thing on clarification? No, I don't think so. Jasper called in about clarification I know you have a backlog already, which I heard in the last episode, had some questions in regards to
+
+[40:01] Liquid Intelligence book, which I've had for 3 weeks and in 3 weeks and enjoy, so now like 5 weeks.
+
+[40:05] But I will anyway push you some more questions into the FIFO list. I understand there's some known typos. All right, we took care of this one. going to get into that one again. Not going to get into that again. Not going to get into it. Not gonna happen. Oh, Stas, you're so you're so evil. You know, Stas won't read the book, which I don't blame her, by the way, because she has to work with me every day. But here's what she said. I don't even consider it a book. I actually used it on Sunday as a separator. A separator of what? Between 2 hot things to carry to somebody. Wow. Wow, yeah. She can't even look at it as a book. It's like an object. It does contain words. Like, she, like, will admit that, that, like, there are words. So, you know. My name's in the phone book. Uh, okay. My main question, which I guess you may be tired of, is on the topic of clarifying lime juice. I follow the steps in the book, but could not identify any noticeable differences between the steps that you're doing, I
+
+[41:05] guess. Apart from the last one after I ran the centrifuge. My question, by the way, so my line clarification, the way it works in the centrifuge is you juice the limes, you add
+
+[41:15] enzyme and you add something called kesel salt to it, which is suspended silicosol. You wait 15. And what that's doing is the, the, the, um, the enzyme is breaking down the pectin. pecnic, pectonized ultra SPL, but you can't use it by itself because the lime juice is to acidic. So at the same time, you add kesel saw, which is a charged silicas saw. It tracks the charge particles in it, which a lot of the turbid particles are. Most of them are, all of them are, attracts it to it. Nick was trying to say that I'm a turbid particle, which is true. attracts it to it. Then you add the, uh, then you wait 15 minutes for that reaction, then you add the
+
+[41:49] kiesel, uh, the kaeda sand, which is the opposite charge, and it bloms them together again, wait 15 minutes, add the kiesel cell again, reglom in Spanish. That's where it is. Anyway, after you add the Kiesel saw the 2nd time, so this is the last step. How long should you wait prior to running the fuse? 15 minutes in the previous steps? I'm adding that question. In the previous steps? Or can you go ahead and run the fuse immediately as implicitly implied in the book? You can pretty much run it immediately. Like, you know, I would wait a couple minutes, but you could pretty much run it right away. My centrifuge has cooling, what temperature do you recommend when spinning? Run it as cold as you can, but not without freezing it. Like I run it, run it like, running it like, you know, zero or like four. I think we keep ours at like 4 when the when the refrigerator's working, that is, we keep it at four. Should the final clarified juice, apart from being transparent, also be colorless? No. No, no, no. Clarified strawberry juice is bright red thank God. Imagine if I go strawberry. Remember, so like the Roka is, right? Like Juan Roka, Geordi Roka, those guys in Elkalar, Ken Roka, like they used to do clear desserts where they would actually rotovap things and make them colorless because they were doing distillation.
+
+[42:56] Distillation is the only real way, you know, other than like, you know, stripping color with charcoal to make something, because that's how they do it with rum, by the way, with, you know, they age
+
+[43:05] rum and then they strip the color out with charcoal. I don't care. Uh, the, uh, so, usually, like, that's the only way to get rid of color. So like, remember that clear is different from colorless. So like strawberry juice, if you can read a newspaper through it, it's clarified. Uh, but the newsprint's not necessarily good at me, it's not necessarily going to look white. You know what I mean? It's going to look like the color. So lime juice should be kind of like a very light green, very light green. Anyway, thanks for the program and support. Jasper from Sweden. Okay, and we have some more cocktail questions. First, well, what? Just so you know, we're running out of time. Okay, so we will get to the punch regency punch question on the next time. I have a whole bunch on regency punch. So whoever wrote in on Fat Washing and Regency Punch. I think it's BJD. We'll get to you next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[44:16] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c 3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Raketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
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+[0:06] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is, with Raketin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[0:24] Viator, verbohotels.com, IHG, and more. Save on cruises, vacation packages, and experiences as well. And don't worry, cash back can be earned on top of your credit card
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+[0:36] points, and with many loyalty programs, because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead. Take a trip, find that perfect hotel, book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain, wherever you want to go, go with
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+[0:51] Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's RAK-U-T-E-N. Today's program is brought to you by Brooklyn Slate Company, a manufacturer of
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+[1:03] Slate Cheeseboards, Coasters, and other fine items. For more information, visit BrooklynSlate.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in
+
+[1:35] Birchwick, Brooklyn. At Roberta's Pizzeria, joined as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Estas, A, and Jack in the engineering booth. We're just running with the old school crew right now. Old school. Old school crew. Streamlined. Yeah. Calling your questions to a 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Uh, and uh, Jack has told me to read this at the beginning because we have an auction that's gone live. Join me, Dave Arnold, and the Hammer, are my co-host, Nastasio Lopez, and the Heritage Radio Network, executive producer Jack
+
+[2:09] Insley, all 3 of us in the same place at the same time, join us in the studio as a special guest on an episode of cooking
+
+[2:16] issues. The weekly radio show on the latest innovative techniques, equipment, and ingredients in the food world, presumably they know what show it is because they were listening to it. Not, if you somehow tuned in here by mistake, I am truly sorry. I'm not going to read this about myself. You have to read this. I'm not going to read a crap about myself. That's crazy. I wanted to see what would happen. Yeah, I'm not going to read that, like, you know, all right, you read this crap, Jack. Well, it's basically, it's on CharityBuzz.com. If you search Heritage Radio Network, and as you may have gathered, you get a chance to sit in on the show, be a guest on the
+
+[2:49] show. We will take you to lunch here at Roberta's, the famous lunch that Dave always enjoys after his show. Now, listen, just so you guys know, the lunch that we normally get. Stas and I, when we're here, like, what we get is she gets a lemonade. I get a Dye Coke because I don't think they have seltzer. otherwise it'll get seltzer. Bape seltzer. They have seltzer? I like seltzer better. Anyway, like she gets a lemonade. I will now be getting a cell cert. We get a pizza and a salad. That's what happens. Right, but this lunch would be, you know. Yeah, this is like more of, this is more tricked out, right? Yeah, yeah. all the fireworks. Yeah, yeah. And if you are lucky, if you are lucky, maybe, maybe Santa's little hipster will be your
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+[3:28] waiter, but we can't guarantee that as part of that. Maybe Indy Jesus would be making a return surprise visit. don't know. Do you think we can get into the possibility? Stas sees him in Manhattan now all the time. Resurrection? Oh my god, indeed Jesus. You're going to get me in some big, big trouble. Uh, yeah. So anyway, and then, uh, well, we're gonna go, you might have to sit and listen to a bar meeting for a while, or else you can entertain yourselves for a couple of hours while I do real business, and then you can join us at 5 for a couple of drinks when Booker and Dax opens
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+[3:58] up and we'll hang out. I'm sure Nastasia will make fun of me and you get to see behind the scenes how she daily attempts to drive me
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+[4:05] bananamas. If you're lucky, Nastasio will make fun of you also. Well, it depends. Listen. Like, she's not kidding. You really have to kind of watch your step because she'll just, she'll just like razor blade you without even, not physical razor blade. she's not, you know, That won't happen. She's not physically violent person, right, Stas? Hey, she's giving me the mezzo meta hand. You know, she gave the Metsa Metsa hands. She's like, you know, would it be fair to say that to a random person you would not be violent? Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'll just leave it at that. Speaking of, I know that this is supposed to be a cooking related show, but I have to bring up a story of holiday cheer at the
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+[4:42] beginning. And I asked Nastasia's permission on this. So I'm not talking out of school here. Nastasia, I'm not going to say she stole her Christmas tree this year because that would be true, but like she like right on the border. You want to tell this stories, does? No, you do it. the quick way that you did at the bar. was good. Oh, okay. So for those of you that have never been to New York City, here's the way it works. People like from Canada or Minnesota, right? Who, I don't know what the hell they do the rest of the year. Do you have any idea? No. They they ran a flatbed truck. And they pilot full of trees from where the trees grow way up north. And then they're basically like circus carnies for Christmas trees. No offense if this is what you do for a living. And then they drive down and for the holiday season, they pretty much camp out in front
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+[5:27] of like some sort of hurricane fence or parking lot somewhere and they just have all their trees leaning against the fence, right? Because we can't just go to Home Depot or Lowe's or like standard Christmas tree operations here in New York, like nurseries and this kind of
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+[5:39] stuff, you can't do it, right? And there's a host of these guys that totally overcharge. So Stas goes to this guy in Hell's Kitchen, which is, you know, where she lives. And it's in a parking lot. She walks up, she goes, talks to the parking lot, and where the hell's the guy? Where the hell's the guy? I want to get a Christmas tree. Because listen, when you're going to buy a Christmas tree in New York, you're set up to buy a Christmas tree. You're not like, I could buy it now or I could buy it later. You're like, you're going to go out. You're going to buy the freaking tree. It's a huge hassle. You're either going to pay your someone or a friend or something. You got to cart a freaking tree home on your shoulders and you're going to lug it and stars now has an elevator, but she still has like those memories
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+[6:16] of like, and I do as well of trucking those trees up the stairs and down the stairs on the shoulder with people looking and laughing. This is what New York Christmas trees are like, happy freaking holidays. So you don't go out unless you're going to get the tree. So she's like, where's the freaking guy? And they get parking lot and it's like, hey, hey, I don't know. Just, you know, he's like, yeah, he's in a car over there or something. I don't know, just shake a tree will come. So Stas goes over. She starts, you know, she's not even probably looking at the tree. She's probably giving it like the, you know, her irritated bored face and just starts shaking this random tree. No guy. She looks over at the parking lot, tenant. Guy goes, meh, you know what I was saying? Meh. And so she starts shaking the tree even harder, like this, anchor shake. I dont know if you can feel it in my voice, the anger shake of the tree. Nothing. So then she picks the tree up and she starts doing the... where you like hammering the tree on the ground and kind of see how it shakes out. You know what I mean? Nothing, not a zip. So she's like, hey, hey, hey, oh, walks away with it. She's like, I'm gonna get 10 feet away. The guy's going to be like, come out of this car. Nothing. She's so like one block later, 2 blocks later, 3 blocks later, home, tree. Wow. Now they have a sign on those trees when I walked here that says, you're being watched. There's a camera, surveillance on you. Call this number if you want a treat. Oh come on. That is not, that is not. I gotta put this one on them, you know? Yeah. Well, yes and no. I mean, Stas did steal a Christmas. Right. But I had $42. Miracle on 41st Street. Hey, listen, listen, here's the thing, right? She like, she thinks that because she had the money in her pocket to pay that she didn't steal it. Yeah, I had every intention of being. You know? Yeah. But I was going there. You know what you should do? You should pin a 20 on one of the trees and walk away. Yeah, right. They could see that on the videotape. Yeah, it's on the video. It's a piece of crap. So you think the whole thing's like a big lie. There's no... And I must not have been the only one. That's full. Clearly, if the guy, 1st of all, now Nastasia to make herself feel better. Just give me some insight. Nastasia Makers, like, I think he stole those trees anyway. No, Mark said that. Oh, all right. Well, he's just trying to make you feel better. Because... Whoa. I have no problem, by the way, someone's stealing a stolen tree. That's fair. Right? Right? But, yeah, you have no evidence that that tree is stolen, just that the guy's an idiot. You have very, very strong evidence that the guy is either an idiot or he's unprepared. Here's the thing, right? Let's see. And there's no tree stump cutter area. No, no, no, weak, weak. No Baylor, no tree something. Here's the thing, right? Like, either you have to have like a bladder of steel to do this job or you have to have a helper that checks in on you once every two,
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+[9:06] 3 hours so you can go relieve yourself. You know, I don't care if you're cold if you're bored. This is your job. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, whatever. It's like the crossing guard has to stand in the street because if the kid gets run over when this person's not in the crossing lane,
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+[9:21] then, you know, it doesn't matter that you needed to pee. You know what I mean? You're guarding the trees. That's your job. That's your livelihood And considering how bad this, presumably, fellow, most of these people are dudes, although there are occasionally women tree sellers. I had one at Lowe's, so she was quite good. Uh, and uh, because I got mine at Lowe's and carry my heavy, heavy tree home on the
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+[9:39] subway like uh, Dingus. Anyway, the, um, because I'd own my car someone. My point being that it's kind of, you know, it couldn't have just been one tree because I don't think this guy has such an accurate
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+[9:50] inventory if he just leaves the stuff lying around 43rd Street. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, all right. Well, if you want to steal Christmas trees with Nastasia, head to charitybuzz.com and just, you know... Is that thing going to be over
+
+[10:02] until? her to steal a tree? I don't know. It's like next year, right? What, the auction? No, the getting of the pro. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, true. There'll be no more trees. We'll have to get something else. You know what, though? Shell give you tips. Tips and pointers from next year on how to steal various, various things, they're supposed to be symbols of giving and love and compassion. So there's 14 days on this. So listeners, you know, get in there. Yeah. All right. Now, before I start in, I'm going to do a couple of rants. I get very I read reviews of things. And not just my own book, by the way. Other people's books, other people's restaurants, and I get like virulently angry at people's reviews. So I'm going to read the 1st couple of the reviews I got, like, kind of takes me off a little bit. I got one review on Liquid Tone who said piss me off. and so I'm going to read it. Uh, but I'm 1st going to read a review of Death and Company's book because, like, we often get reviewed at the same time because they came out roughly similar times, and it turns out they're both about cocktails. So anyway, this is by Craig, who's not smart enough to have his own last name on Amazon. Uh, and he wrote this review of uh, of Death and Co's book. One star. First of all, idiot. Why would you get idiot? Why would you give Death and Co's book one star? idiot. And then here's what he wrote. I think this, I mean, this is Craig's voice now. He sounds a lot like me. I think it is important for everyone, considering purchasing this book, to understand that the authors completely omit vodka from the book. No drink recipes with vodka. It's like having the definitive book on fashion and omitting the color black. Oh, jerk. First of all, death and code never said, right? The authors never said, hey, you know what I'm going to give you? I'm going to give you the definitive all time book on cocktails. No, it's the definitive book on Death and Coast, cocktails, and death, what Death and Co thinks about cocktails. And guess what, buddy? They don't serve the vodka to think. And now if you had bought like, you know, like Mr. Boston's guide to like how to make every cocktail in the
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+[11:56] world and it wasn't like shellacked with vodka recipes, you'd have a point. But as is, no freaking point. What do you think about this, Jack? It's irritating, right? Person's an idiot. And yet you, like, you know, that that review has been sticking in my craw for a long time. And yet you don't have a way to erase it. Like this idiot is sitting there knocking on their on their totals. Like, thank God, it doesn't knock it a lot, but whatever, irritating. That's why you have to read the one star reviews. You have to read all of it, but like the thing is, is like, like, how is it, like, that they learn to type? How can they tie their shoes if they're that stupid? Now, here's one from my book, Liquid Intelligence, 3 stars, which is not horrible. I don't like it. I mean, I don't like it. It pisses me off, to be honest, but whatever. By Robert Boyle, not the famous dead scientist, right? Robert Boyle, here's what he wrote. I swear to God, this is what it said. A little too, 1st of all, 1st of all, 10 in two. A little to deep. Yeah, deep, not really a verb here. I think what they meant is too deep, as in T-O-O-D, whatever. A little to deep. Not many home mixologists will be buying liquid nitro for their
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+[13:10] guests, no apostrophe drinks. Now, here's my point. First of all, forget the grammar. don't care. You know what I mean? Don't care about that because if they'd said nice things, I would have forgiven their grammar. For all I know, even though his name sounds as English speaking as the day is long, the
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+[13:26] guys, you know, native language could be some like, you know, completely different language. I don't know. You know what I mean? So I don't judge people's, like, you know, writing skills on this. However, what they're saying is, is that I gave them too much freaking information in the book. I bend over backwards in the book telling everyone how they can do all of these techniques and ideas without the fancy
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+[13:44] equipment if they want to. And then I also tell them how to do the fancy stuff if they want to, and I'm getting hammered on it. To me, I was telling Stas before, it's the equivalent of saying, you know what? You know what? This encyclopedia Britannic kind of sucks. Why do they have this section on trigonometry? I'm never going to read it. They could have gotten rid of all those pages and these freaking encyclopedia would not have taken so much room on my shelf. Jerk. Anyway, whatever. That's my rant. We should just pick, like, not my book in general, but like other people, like, we should pick some bad reviews and like rank on the reviewers every once in a while because it just, it just bugs me that people can
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+[14:16] write. Here's the thing. Most people I think that write reviews like this. have probably never done a damn thing that they've put out there for other people to enjoy. This is why I have problems with, not problems with them, friends with a lot of critics, but the problem, my problem with criticism in general, uh, whether it's like Yelp or whatever is that most of the people who are making
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+[14:36] criticisms, and it can be valid or not, is just that they don't, they wouldn't do it if what they did for a living was try to put something out there for someone else to enjoy.
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+[14:47] You know what I mean? And then all of a sudden get smacked back on stuff like, like, you wouldn't take it so lightly. If you actually wrote books or had a bar or, you know, did anything like that, you would not write flip reviews of other people's
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+[15:06] work. You would take it seriously, wouldn't you, does? Yeah, whatever. Speaking of beautiful day here in New York, huh? Oh yeah. Yeah? You know what? It's raining. It's raining. It's not the rain. The rain's not so bad. It's the freaking wind, but guess what? Booker and Dax has a buyout, so it's a perfect night for a buyout because we're not going to have any foot traffic anyway. awesome. Awesome. Anyway, Jack, now that we've done the preliminaries. Oh, Stas, we have a contest. You want to announce that or no? You're not gonna announce that? Yeah, we're having people send in their cool series all tricks, techniques, practices, application videos. Send it to Searzol at bookerindex.com. We gonna choose 10, the 10 will all get a Burnsomatic TS, 8000, and then the winner will get a
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+[15:50] sears all signed by days. Blockside by Dave. The people who get the TSA 1000 also get another series all or just a tour? Okay, so, like, everyone who wins is going to get a TS 8000, and then one of them is going to get an additional sears all on top of the 8,000. You sounded really excited. I'm kidding. I can't wait to see your videos. Jack, did you believe her excitement? I did. bought it. Yeah? You bought it? I'm so excited. So we're looking for it. Look, here's the basic deal. We know what we use it for, but like every day, you know, I have like different things that I come up with it
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+[16:21] for, just because it's sitting there all the time in my house. I use it for different things. So we're looking for new things that we haven't thought of or tips and tricks that we can put videos up, and we're looking to steal your good ideas, and in return, we will give you a sweet new
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+[16:36] Burns Matic, TSA. And by the way, donated by Burns Matic. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're friendly with us. They're good people. Okay. Got some questions in. BJD wrote in a while ago and I didn't get this. First, while searching a cooking issue site for an email address, and I love that I missed this because now I get to smack it back on Stas.
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+[16:56] Stas used to have a little blog called, uh, well, little in the technical sense. about being little, 5 foot kitchen. long time ago,
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+[17:05] where she was like, you know, she had this like tiny, tiny, apparently 5 feet long kitchen where she would cook and she would like, you know, try to, you know, have like meals for like, I don't know, 20 people or something out of this
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+[17:17] five. That was the that was the the conceit of the blog. correct? Okay. First, while searching the cooking issue site for an email address, I stumbled across 5 foot kitchen and it appears now to be a porn site, not judging, but in case it's a
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+[17:30] mistake, I thought I'd let you know. a mistake. Awesome, wow. Wow. So it's not fivefootkitchen.wordpress.com? I don't know what it... I mean, it used to be. Oh, that's working. Oh, really? It got taken over, I guess, at the porn site, but it's not really an appropriate porn title. 5 foot. kitchen. I mean, like there's no, like, five, not a particularly porny number. Oh, no. Yeah, it makes sense. still there. All right. Well, it must have gotten temporarily taken over, but I like that idea. Now, onto the questions. Does proof affect the flavor extraction while fat washing? I believe PDT uses 4 roses yellow label. If I use bonded bourbon, isolating with higher proof than the 4 roses yellow, will I pull out more bacon flavor?
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+[18:17] Okay, that's an excellent question. I would say that proved most definitely affects the flavor you get with fat washing. Now, you got to remember, PDT is using Benton's bacon
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+[18:30] fat, and Benton's is the smokiest damn bacon in that I've ever had. It's, I mean, like, I can't say, you know, whether they are not smokier. It is by far, however, the smokiest bacon I've ever had. So they don't necessarily need to get the maximum amount of extraction out.
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+[18:48] So they're just picking a whiskey that they like. You know what I mean? And so I think in certain situations, like at the bar, for some reason, I don't know, God knows why. Uh, they they wanted to make uh, uh, a booker in Dax, Smirnoff ice, so they could ice some bartender at some event in some other city, right?
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+[19:06] But they want to do it, Booker and Dax style. So they said to me, hey, Dave, hey, Dave, we want to make a Smirnoff ice style thing. What are we gonna do? Now, the key thing with the Smirnoff ice, right? Is it? I mean, I think it's not clear, right? It's white. It's milky, yeah? And the way to do that is to put citrus oils in, but they didn't want to get citrus oils and buy
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+[19:22] it and do all that stuff. So what I told him to do was take super high proof. We use stuff called industry standard technical reserve, which is 955. Soak a bunch of citrus peels in it. That's going to extract the oil. Then you're going to make a water base that you're going to put some gum Arabic
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+[19:39] into. Then you're gonna add the 2 together. It's going to loosh out, and then when it looshes out, you're going to get a Smirnoff ice colored thing, which is what they did, and it worked. Now here's the thing, right? So for that, I needed very high proof. Why? Because I really wanted it to loose. So I was sucking a lot of stuff out, right? Now, let's say you weren't or you didn't want it to lose or you had a different set of criteria. Then, you know, that high proof would be a detriment because it would cause Lucian when you diluted your drink down. Um, so yeah, you probably extract more, but more isn't even the right way, probably
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+[20:12] different uh, different ratios of uh, flavors will come out and just different overall things. So I don't think there's a better or a worse. I think there's just kind of what you like. What do you think? Yeah, whatever. She doesn't care. Okay. Also, caller. Oh, okay, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? It's Anton from Boca Raton. Hey, how you doing? Hope you're not back on any juice cleanses for the holidays. You know I feel about that. Exactly, man. I didn't explode the turkey, so everything came out awry. We didn't die with the deep front of drinking. Nice. You still have a house or garage or wherever you did it. Nice. Everything's all intact, though. Sweet, sweet. My question is, I'm actually going to be opening up a restaurant zone, that's a very small cafe, about 1,300 feet. Um, my partners really want to hold off from putting in a, a hood system inside there. I mean, because
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+[21:07] of the expand from the amount of time that's going out. One of the solutions that I thought I could go around is perhaps offering the fear zone, because I want to, I still want to put something, some sort of cook on everything, without having the whole small place,
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+[21:21] my luck like that. I don't know if you had any other recommendations outside of that as well or what you thought. Well, I mean, look, the serial is not intended to be the primary heating device for a, you know, in a commercial
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+[21:35] application, just because, like, it's just going to take a long time to do a bunch of covers. If you're doing like... I did want to do. I was definitely going to do like a partial cook, like I was definitely going to do a sous vide. It was just to finish anything on it. Yeah, I mean, look, you could do like a finish or like, you know, you know, I've done I've done, so I just put a video up to show people kind of, you know, what it's like,
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+[21:56] but you're talking, so when I did the 4 steaks on the 2nd finish around, you're looking at like 5 minutes,
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+[22:02] but, excuse me, that's not 5 minutes that you get to like do other stuff. That's 5 minutes of you just searing steaks. So, I mean, I think it would be a little tough to do something like that. I mean, like, you know, one way to get around this also is like, you know, you could kind of
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+[22:19] go like induction portable and then do something that's not tech. I can't believe I'm recommended this, but not technically illegal, like in terms of, like, you need to have a hood if you have certain kind of cooking stuff, right? You just need to from a code standpoint. However, if you just have a non-hood, uh, ventilation in a window with a fan, you know, that's not technically, uh, you know, ventilation for what you're doing, but then if you had a small induction unit that you can move around, people might not gripe on you so
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+[22:48] hard, and then you could use that in conjunction with some spot work on a
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+[22:52] series all. There's also going to throw off smoke, though. You know what I mean? But, you know, you could do something like that, but I wouldn't want to rely on doing. I mean, look, if you were in a catering situation or like a one off thing or if you had like just a couple of things that you wanted to hit, but, you know, you're going to be talking that if you're just cranking covers out with that thing, you're going to have someone on it, you know, all the time.
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+[23:13] Now, you know, eventually I'd like to make one that's, you know, kind of holds itself there almost like a broiler that's bigger, in which case it'd be golden for that. But, you know, in this application, Um, is it multiple story building? Is it a multiple story building or a single story building? They should put the hood in. Yeah, I want them too, with the trying to crank everything out as quickly as possible and then
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+[23:39] also they're trying to do it with minimal cost as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the costs are to do like a, uh, you know, but a hood down there, but there's that outfit out of Georgia that sells really cheap hoods and like in, uh, up, you know, uh,
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+[23:54] uplast blowers. I just, I don't know what it would cost to actually get an install down there. But, you know, you're in a good situation because you have only one story. And, you know, can you fake around not having a hood? Sure, but then, you know, you're going to be limiting your menu quite a bit based on what you can do. Um, you know, I just, I don't, I don't like seeing anyone kind of go into a situation where, you know, they're
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+[24:18] setting themselves up for problems later on. You know what I mean? And that's that's pretty much what I see right now too. I'm trying to see what options I can go down. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I would do a lot of tests. Is it relatively open the place? I mean, are the, is it like, how open is the space? Um, the actual cooking is fairly closed off, but it's, it's probably going to be, and being around 500 square feet. Right, but I mean, can you open the cooking space to the outside? The problem is, is that in the summertime, you're going to need to AC that thing. Otherwise, like, you know, I mean, you know, you're in Florida, you can't mess around with that. You know what I'm saying? So it's not like you're going to be able to, you know, but you have, you have like, you have a what? You have like 4 or 5 months of decent weather in front of you before you get totally hosed on the heat, you know, and maybe they'll install a hood by
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+[25:05] then. But, you know, the question is, yeah, can you get around stuff? Sure, you know, you work around having minimal amounts of sear, you, uh, on things, you can spot, do things with a sears all, or, you know, you can get, um, there are these, uh, like cast iron griddles that you can heat up
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+[25:20] on that, you know, Kenji Alt Lopez has one on this. They're not available yet. You could heat on induction until it's ripping and then do stuff like that.
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+[25:28] So there are ways around this kind of a thing. Um, you know, you're going to have to like, you're going to have to add texture in other ways, like other crunchy stuff that you can add to it, you know, and then you can do a minimal amount of sear down on
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+[25:40] stuff or things like fish that are primarily on the, on the more, uh, you know, raw side where you're just hitting it with something for a little bit to like get it
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+[25:48] out. Uh, you know, shift your menu towards that kind of stuff until you can go serious
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+[25:53] on the, on the hot side, but you're not going to want to choke yourself out and put yourself in a situation where you can't crank the stuff out in a reasonable amount of
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+[26:00] time. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. It's just, yeah, it's a huge predicament that I've been thinking about for a while. Here's the here's the thing, right? Here's how I would approach it. I approach any situation. So, say, look it. Okay, you're going to have a sears all or two. You're going to have like some induction burners. I don't know, maybe you're going to have an electric oven, whatever. Look at what you have, right? what you're going to be able to get. And then just like forget, forget whatever it is that you think you want to make, right, beforehand. Just forget it because, you know, maybe it does, maybe that's not what this kitchen wants to make. But you have a certain battery of, you know, the cuisine there. And you have a certain refrigerator and freezer storage space, and you have a certain amount of ventilation. So now just like build, build a, use it as an exercise in menu design and just build the menu around
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+[26:56] your, your, your battery, you know, to cuisine. And that's it. And that way, you know, don't, you know, don't do like the big old hard seared X, Y, or Z because, you know, you're not going to be able to get rid of the smoke. But, like, you know, a little item here with a small amount of steer to give that brown flavor, and then maybe, you know, a bunch of other stuff that you can do on like a cold prep or, uh, you know, uh, you know, something that's like
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+[27:19] hot but not smoky, like on a stove, an induction on a pot or, you know, in
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+[27:23] a, in a warmer. So build what you do around what you have. And I think you're going to be like a lot happier than trying to crush something you want into a space that you can't
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+[27:34] produce it. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. For sure, for sure. Excellent. So when are you going to open up? It's gonna, it's actually gonna be, uh, it's still gonna be, uh, goose filed up for cocktails this time. Oh nice. All right. Well, good. So like, like, I mean, unfortunately, you know, as I, as we all know, if it's going to be mainly cocktail, what I, what I want to eat is fried food, but that you definitely need a hood for. Ain't no. I really want to put in a fry. That was the initial thing. I initially tried looking at the oilless fryers, but I don't know if that was possible or not. Yeah, you know, look, there are hoodless fryers and apparently they're pretty good because, you know, like they have them in Penn Station, right? like they can't like, but I think those things are pricey. In other words, by the time you get, and I don't know this, I'm just talking out of, out of, I'm not talking out of the proper hole when I'm saying this, but, you know, the, uh, my feeling is, is that if you're
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+[28:29] gonna invest in uh, a hoodless fryer system, then, you know, for, I mean,
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+[28:37] because you don't have a particularly difficult install job on a hood.
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+[28:40] So, you know, those are typically, I think, sold to people because it's going to cost a lot
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+[28:45] to do a hood. So you're looking at, you could have had like an $800 fryer and then like a $500 hood and like, you know, a $1000 blower install for an extra $1000 or you could buy a $4000 hoodless fryer and still
+
+[29:00] have, and still not have a hood. You know what I'm saying? Um, you know, another option. I don't know whether it's legal or not, but, you know, I don't know if you could fry outside, but, you know, then if it, you know, with
+
+[29:10] like a, with like a, what's it called, with like a, uh, cover or something. I don't know if it's legal or not, but it's, you know, you could do that. I mean, my next fryer is probably going to be, you know, outside, semi-covered, so I don't have to worry about ventilating it. Very good. Thank you once again, man. All right, let us know, let us know how it goes. Let us, you know, you know, take a picture of your menu and send it over to the cooking issues
+
+[29:32] Twitter so we can see what you came up with. Alrighty. And Jack, do you want to, should we take our 1st break? Let's do it All righty.
+
+[30:10] Today's program brought to you by Brooklyn Slate. We're so proud to count Brooklyn Slate as a business member of Heritage Radio Network. Brooklyn Slate Company as a collaborative effort from Brooklyn graphic designer Sean Tyson, Parsons graduate student Christy Hideka. After visiting Christie's family slate quarry in upstate New York in the spring of 2009, the 2 grabbed a few pieces to use as all-purpose boards back home in
+
+[30:33] Brooklyn and began gifting pieces to friends. The response was so overwhelmingly positive that the 2 struck out to produce a line of slate products. We encourage you to visit Brooklynslate.com to learn more. You can also get your own Brooklyn slate care package by becoming a super fan member of Heritage Radio Network. Visit us at heritageradionetwork.org slash donate for more. And we are back. By the way, those Brooklyn Slate people, good people. Great people, yeah. Yeah. You know, they they donated slates to our very 1st fundraiser Del Posto years ago, early supporters of MoFed. They're nice slates too. Yeah, very nice. I wonder, I wonder, like, are they like, I know what those slates look like, but I wonder whether they
+
+[31:20] do, like, slate for pool tables too. Not them, but the family. You know what I mean? Or whether they do slate for like more like shingles, like slate roofs and stuff like that. not sure. I don't know. Do you know stars that if you try to move a slate pool table, you'll totally ruin
+
+[31:34] it. Oh really? I did not know that either. I thought it was the kind of thing where you could just get a bunch of knuckleheads. Like buy the used pool table, pick the sucker up. you know, because, you know, I'll pick any. not that I'm weak. I'm physically weak, but I have so much internal kind of like deep seated simmering rage that I can pretty much lift
+
+[31:52] anything. You know what I mean? Even though I myself am physically weak. So I just thought I could get, you know, a couple people like that and like throw it in something and drive it around. But apparently just picking one up will totally hose it. Like the slate, like slates in like 3 pieces and it'll break and it'll never be the same again. So when a pool table is moved, it's completely disassembled and then reassembled, including the felt and
+
+[32:14] everything, or it's not really felt cloth. You know what I mean? You can move the Brooklyn slate pieces, though, pretty easily. Yeah, in contradistinction to pool tables. Brooklyn slate pieces are easy to move unless you're moving a couple 100 of them around to a
+
+[32:28] MoFed. I think remember that? We're like, 0 yeah, that's sleep. That box is heavy. Anyway. So back to some questions. The aviary did a cool Martinez variant about a year ago with a maraschino liqueur iceballs that gently melted. Gently melted. What song am I thinking of? Gently melted. Gently, silently, I'm thinking of silently sleep. That's like uh, Simon Garfunkel. Somehow gently melted makes me think of Simon Garfunkel. Which your pro, right? Surprisingly. You like the Garfunkel and the Simon. Me too. Altering the drink and adding to my overall enjoyment of the cocktail as it dried out.
+
+[33:10] Um, I wonder when you dried out. Melt it out probably. anyway. Any idea and how this might have been done and any way to replicate it without liquid nitrogen? Well, I happen to have gone to aviary and I'm pretty sure that they don't use liquid nitrogen for this trick. The way that you used to get kind of hollow spheres of stuff is you would take
+
+[33:28] water and you would put it, you would, well, you would blow up a balloon partially, and then you'd put water in it, and then you'd throw that balloon into LN or whatever, and you'd spin the balloon and you'd spit fast because it's going to shrink because
+
+[33:38] of the water. Although, maybe they just do it full. I don't know. Maybe they don't have air in it, in which case it won't shrink. smart. Meh, maybe. don't know. Anyway, probably. Anyway. So you spin it, right? And then you're getting a layer of ice all the way around the balloon and you know how long you're going to spin it, and you spin it, and you spin it, and you spin it. Uh, and then uh, what you do is you take the, pop the balloon off of it, and now you have a sphere of uh, ice and the inside still liquid.
+
+[34:02] Then what you do is you take an ice pick or whatever, and then you go, that was my noise, and then you
+
+[34:09] blick, blick, blick, blick, blick, blick, blick, you pour the water out of the inside. It says, well, my guitar gently leaves. Oh, that's it. That's it. While my guitar. Well, my guitar gently melts. Yeah, anyway, so you stick the, uh, stick the ice picking. Look, look, look it out. And now you can fill it with whatever you want. There are some caveats because it's going to melt the stuff out of the inside. So storage is an issue. I would do it you know, relatively quickly. They then refreeze a plug over the hole and do it. And pretty sure this is how they do it, right? But they don't do it with liquid nitrogen. Last time I was at aviary, they do it with polyscience, a circulating chiller that chills, liquid down. I don't I didn't see. notice what temperature they were running their circulator at. But that's what they do. What you could do at home is crush ice, very fine. And then add a not a little bit of salt, ate a lot of salt, like on the order of a quarter of the weight of the ice in salt, like salt, but you want
+
+[35:03] it also to be kind of liquidy, right? You don't want it to be chunky solids. That's why you want crushed ice, uh, water, and uh, well, but don't add water right away because, you know, you're going to get some meltdown and a boat ton of salt. You stir it up, and it's going to get preposterously cold, and then you could probably do the balloon with
+
+[35:19] water. Spin. It will freeze. It's gonna take you a little bit longer, but you'll be able to do it. If you immerse a balloon in it, spin it around so it stays nice and, you know, evenly whatever, and you should be able to do it that way. Third, every year I make several batches of regent's punch for my holiday party. I was thinking of adding a spherification technique, an attempt to add a festive flavor. I don't know. I wouldn't add a verification festive flavor. I go straight, but I'm still going to answer this question. I was thinking of something like slightly diluted Angostora syrup balls. Like people know I don't like the I don't like the little balls. You know, stars? I don't like the little balls. What technique would you suggest to minimize flavor thievery and maximize stability? First of all, regions punch. So, uh, this is, by the way, I'm giving you, um, David Wondridge's recipe for Regent's punch off of an esquire article. He wrote, thin cut the rinds of 4 lemons, one pint tea, 12 ounces super fine sugar, 6 ounces lemon juice, one. 5 cups, orange juice, uh, one cup pineapple juice, one pint brandy, one half pint, dark rum, 2 bottles of brute champagne. Stas is perked up,
+
+[36:27] boom, champagne. Uh, slices of orange and slices of pineapples. Put the lemon rinds into the tea while the latter is still hot, allowing them to steep together, add the sugar, set aside to
+
+[36:36] cool, when cooled, add the fruit juices and the liquor, liqueur, or
+
+[36:40] liquor, actually. Place in a punch bowl with one or 2 large chunks of ice, adding the champagne immediately before
+
+[36:46] serving garnish with orange and pineapple slices. Now, this is Dave Wondridge's note on the official recipe. If you were to cut the brandy in half. Lose the rumen pineapple juice and pitch in a bottle of Madeira, your fellow creatures would not turn up their snouts.
+
+[37:00] I think that's probably a good addition. Now, what you want to do here is you're trying to throw Angus Dura balls into this, right? So, If you want the angus syrup, it's a punch. First of all, it's a punch. We mention this, punch. So that means if you're going to do it traditional, it's going to sit around. It's going to sit, right? So now you have a couple of choices. If you do standard verification, the angostura balls are going to go solid, and that's going to suck. There's going to be little balls. They not going to have any flavor. you use algaen and go forward, right? Even if you were to, you could do, like, uh, gelan, very light. excuse me. I'm coughing like a lunatic today. It's the sweet weather we're having. You could do like a very light gelang gel and they would still have some flavor. It go a little bit larger. you could drop them, but again, and we're talking the light, like, you know, a quarter of a percent or less, of
+
+[37:48] uh, of low ace, of jellan, so you get that nice brittle and the flavor release, but they're going to melt their flavor out relatively quickly. By the way, if you're going to make the balls beforehand, you're going to want to store them in the
+
+[37:58] angle syrup themselves so that they don't leach flavor out. But you're going to be looking at that kind of a problem. It's still going to be solid. If you want it to stay liquid, right? Then you're going to have to do some form of reverse alginate, and to do reverse alginate, you're going to need to add, I
+
+[38:14] would presumably, you need to add calcium to the angostura, thicken it quite a bit, with sugar or whatever else, and then drop it into a relatively thin alginate bath, let it sit long enough, pull it out, and then put it through a calcium water bath to rinse off the rinse off and slash set the
+
+[38:30] algebra on the outside. You don't have to add calcium in the 1st bath, although I usually rinse off in water and then in calcium. But if the balls stick together, then your SOL. But this way these balls will last forever. If you store them in Angostora with a little bit of calcium in it, you can keep these things forever.
+
+[38:47] And they will stay liquid on the inside forever. But here is your problem. One of 2 things is going to happen, depending on the density you choose for it. They are either going to sink to the bottom of your bowl or they're going to float to the top of your bowl. Neither of which is necessarily what you want, right? So how are you going to remedy this? Well, you can't, unless you want to make a geland fluid gel out of the punch. And now you've gone beyond where I am going to even cosign even temporarily on this on this stuff because like by making a fluid gel out of the punch, the whole thing's going to shake like a bowl full of jelly like Santa's belly from that night before Christmas thing.
+
+[39:22] You used to read that when you were a kid? You like that pump? I used to have it memorized. I don have it anymore. I just remember their sashes. Remember he throws open the sash. Oh, yeah. Yeah, at the time, I didn't know what a sash was. That's why I stuck in my head. I would say it every year and I was like, I have no idea. But you know what? Too lazy to look it up. You know what I'm saying? It's like my son Dax. He's like, what does this mean? I'm like, go look it up. He's like, nope. anyway. Uh, PS, some friends of mine were traveling from our home in St. Louis to New York and visited Booker and Dax on my recommendation. They loved it. I don't usually recommend places. I have myself not visited, but I felt confident you would deliver. Thank you, BJD. Thank you. That's very nice. I appreciate that. Okay. Now, got some more, these are actually new questions. We got new questions in. How much time do I have? 10 minutes. Yeah, 10 minutes. Alex writes in. Hello, Jack, Anastasia, and Dave. Hey, yeah, right? Nice. Thank you for the show and everything else. I've listened to just about every back episode over the past 2 years and I've heard your comments about pressure cookers that don't leak any steam as being better, but I cannot recall ever hearing why. I have some guesses, but I would rather hear your reason. Um, And when he says, and if it's a slow
+
+[40:31] day and you have time for another question, we spoke about ultra spurse M versus three. I'm unfamiliar with them besides being pre-gelatinized starch, but how are they different from Wondra? And what am I missing out by not using them? Well, I'll get into that one next time. If Jack, if you can have someone remind me to get that question next week, I'll get that one next week. But as a result, the pressure cooker. The interesting answer is, I have no idea. I have no freaking idea why it makes a difference, whether the pressure cooker is emitting steam or not. And, you know, I just don't know. You know, because it's going to be like, well, it's, you know, the volatiles are coming out with a steam and that's what's ruining it, right? That's what you would think. No stars? Is that what you would think if you actually care to think about it? Yeah, right. Yeah, probably if I care to think about it. But, um, interestingly, uh, the pressure cookers that let off steam fared worse inside by side stock
+
+[41:25] tests. This is just stock, by the way. And by the way, I think I did veal and chicken. Um, they fared worse than an, like an open standard stock pot. Now, you know, that thing is open and the volatiles are leaving all of the time, right? So if it's the fact that it's volatiles leaving, then why should an open pot be better than a pressure cooker pot, unless it's a different kind of better, that, you know, like it
+
+[41:51] goes, loses so many volatiles that it comes back through, but that wasn't my impression.
+
+[41:55] So what happened was, is that for years, I'd been making stock in my pressure cooker, which is a coon recon, which doesn't, which has a spring and doesn't make steam. And I was like, this is a better way of making stock. And then, uh, you know, I went to go write the blog post about how years ago. Uh, you know, I went to go write, you know, my blog post about how awesome pressure cookers are and how they're so much better for
+
+[42:19] stocks, because the stocks are browner and faster, and they just taste inherently better because there's more extraction and more meaty flavor and more and more better, blah, blah, blah.
+
+[42:28] And I used the FCI's crappy pressure cookers. They're crappy $60 pressure cookers that were blowing steam off the entire time they were doing it. And this was, by the way, just a formality because in my head, I'd already, the pressure cooker was already better, blah, blah, blah. So I made a traditional stock, and I made the pressure cooker stock, and I tasted them side by side. I was like, what? What? What? The traditional one was better. Like by a good margin. The pressure cooker one was darker, but the, you know, traditional one had like a much better flavor. Everyone agreed. And it wasn't just because onion is really softened, for instance, in a pressure cooker or sweetness of carrots magnified. It just wasn't as good. And I was like, what? Like my entire world was like kind of like thrown upside down for a couple of
+
+[43:16] days. So I did it again. And again the traditional one. And then I was like, you know what? You know what? I'm bringing my pressure cooker into work. So I brought my pressure cooker into work, and then I did three. I did traditional. I did my pressure cooker that doesn't vent, and I did their crappy pressure cooker that vented. I'm not going to say it was a fagor, but it was. And then, uh, no offense to them, but it steams, whatever. Anyway, so like, I did the test. And then, uh, I was like, my pressure cooker easily
+
+[43:48] beat traditional and way, way, way, way beat the, um, the venting pressure cooker. And I ran the test a couple of times and we always got the same kind of results. And so, uh, and I also ran it in a different kind of ceiling pressure cooker, the American canner, which also seals, uh, because it's basically a bomb
+
+[44:10] with, you know, with a little overpressure valve on it. So whatever. So, you know, it's just something that, you know, I discovered
+
+[44:17] empirically, and I haven't ever really made a good reason for
+
+[44:24] it because I don't really know the answer. But, you know, that's the good thing about not having to know the why necessarily in the kitchen, just knowing the what, but you can't know the
+
+[44:37] what unless you do the kind of careful observation of what you're doing.
+
+[44:43] So I have no, I still have no clue. I'd like to hear someone tell me why. Um, I like to hear someone tell me why. But I think for other things, it doesn't make so much of a difference. Like, uh, you know, I haven't noticed a difference in eggs, pressure cooked eggs, for instance, between a venting and
+
+[45:00] a non-venting. Um, so I don't know. interesting question. I'd love to hear other people's ideas, but I never like to give explanations that I just don't have any idea. You know stuff? Yes. Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. So, uh, let me see. Now this, now Uriel wrote in, right, a couple of times. Oh, wait, we have Paul, Paul, because Uriel, listen, you wrote in about milk powder, and I don't have a good answer for you because I haven't had the chance to try to cook with the milk powder
+
+[45:32] yet. I'm going to try to do a test with the milk powder to see kind of what happens. So, you know, the question that he had was, um, there's a couple questions, but the important one is about, and I read it once on the air about Heston Blumenthal, and how he adds milk powder to chicken wings when he's roasting them off, and he's going to make a
+
+[45:52] stock. And, uh, Uriel's not able to get, because the reason being that you get kind of mired reactions, because, you know, milk has both milk powder has both
+
+[46:00] proteins and reducing sugars in them. And the browning in milk is really like a myard, like in, um, believe it is, like in Dulce de Leche and things like this. And so, um, you know, getting those extra kind of flavors by adding the, you know, milk powder to
+
+[46:14] the to the chicken wings, but, um, and Uriel wasn't making stock, but he said that this really doesn't have a kind of a good
+
+[46:20] result. But, uh, I, um, I don't, I don't really know the answer to like how to get it to use it for searing because
+
+[46:28] I have me for browning on something cooked, so I haven't tried. So I'd love to get other people's responses into this and I'm going to try to do it myself because I do have some milk powder lying around. Okay, so we're going to hold that one off again and hopefully someone can write in, you know, tweet me or whatever and give me some guidance or
+
+[46:44] advice and hopefully I have time to run some experiments myself. But we have Paul writing in. I guess it's gonna have to be the last question, huh? Yep. All right. Hi, Dave. I was wondering if you had any experience or advice using a coffee siphon
+
+[46:57] brewer. We're talking about a vacuum pot, and it drew a really nice picture. You like that picture sent us? By the way, you know, people, I appreciate I can't show them on the air, but I appreciate it in a nice little picture, you know? In fact, instead of reading it, I am looking at the nice little picture. He drew a Japanese style one, those really kind of expensive Japanese ones that you get with the little ball underneath
+
+[47:18] and the thingamajig. Anyway, I was wondering if you had any experience or advice using a coffee siphon brewer with hot cocktails. A bartender friend of mine was thinking of doing something with gin,
+
+[47:28] see attached sketch. Oh, there's a recipe there? I can't see that small. Stas, can you blow it up on your computer? See what the recipe is? A bartender a friend of mine was thinking of doing something with gin. See attached sketch. And while I have seen hot cocktails prepared this way at the aviary here in Chicago. I didn't know what considerations need to be made with ratios, et cetera. I'd also heard the method brings down the ABV. Is this considerably? Is this true and anything that could be done to counter that? Well, what was the recipe? Cinnamon, anise, allspice, clothes, orange peel, gin, gin cider. Gin cider? I mean, that's the arrow there. Oh, okay. So a couple of questions here. One, do you have to adjust ratios? absolutely. Two, do you lose ABV? Absolutely. Three, uh, what does the siphon do to it? And the answer to that is, I have no idea. I've never used this. I've never used a siphon for infusion for cocktails. I've had coffee with it, but I've never used it for kind of infusion because a bunch of people kind of had already done it. And, uh, and so like, you know, I, we don't do kind of table side infusions
+
+[48:37] at Booker and Dax. I don't have a lot of personal experience with it, but I do have a lot of experience balancing hot drinks. and getting rid of alcohol. And the truth of the matter is, is that losing alcohol is not a bad thing. When you have a hot drink, you need to have a like a much, much lower alcohol content in that drink than you would in any other kind of cocktail. You also need to serve in a wide, not like in a
+
+[49:00] bowl, because if it's in a huge bowl, then you have to put your face over it like you're a dog looking out of a bowl and you'll get overwhelmed by the fumes. But if you have a smaller glass, like a normal cocktail glass, when you bring
+
+[49:11] your add up to your nostrils, you'll get a focused hit of hot alcohol and
+
+[49:17] it'll, you know, even if the drink is balanced, you won't be able to drink it. So what we use is kind of, you know, TT slash coffee cups when we're doing it. So the vessel you drink out of is extremely important when you're doing a hot alcohol drink like this.
+
+[49:29] Also, bear in mind, when you're serving hot drinks to people, it's nice to give them a cup with a handle on it. There's a reason coffee cups have handles on them. And teacups have handles on them. Now, so getting rid of the some of the alcohol is not bad. In fact, when I do the red hot pokers, which we're going to fire up again in about a week or so at Booker and Dax, um, because we have our new welder coming in, uh, when
+
+[49:52] you, when I do hot drinks, I literally burn excess alcohol off because when you're, um, if
+
+[49:59] I want to include like a lot of a flavor of the base spirit, right? I need to include enough liquor for you to really taste the liquor, but that amount of
+
+[50:09] liquor if you didn't get rid of some of the alcohol would be too strong in the aroma of alcohol in a finished drink. So getting rid of ABV is actually your friend in this situation. Not your friend from a cost standpoint, but it's definitely your friend from a flavor standpoint. And as regards mixing. If you're going to add, was there any, was there any acid in that? I know I heard there was orange. Was there any acid at all on that? You want to really scale the acid back to very low. And then, um, you know, you're going to need to taste it hot because the, your perception of the sugar is going to change radically and your perception of the alcohol is going to change radically. So what I would do is I would make the drink and then just add in hot water until you get the kind of dilution you want in terms of the alcohol nose and the flavor of the
+
+[50:54] spirit. You'll get that, then back substitute in your other base flavors. By that, I mean your sweetness and any acid that you're going to do. Then, then worry about your botanicals and infusions because those things you're going to be able to nail pretty easily because they work just like
+
+[51:10] tea and tea is something you're used to. The parameters that you're going to have to work with that you're not used to working with are hot alcohol, hot
+
+[51:18] acid and hot sugar in terms of how they relate and balancing a cocktail. And there's a section called red hot poker drinks and liquid intelligence that you could probably do Amazon search inside without even buying the book and just check out and see kind of what the parameters are
+
+[51:31] there. Because I write down my alcohol levels, theoretical, you know, and whatnot and talk about this in kind of greater detail. And with that, we're out of here cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[51:51] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the
+
+[0:06] soil, and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and Rover's Pizzeria in Bushwick.
+
+[0:50] I'm usually with Nostasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Are we having a show next week? What day? What day is that? What month day is that? Um, I don't know, but I know we're not having a show. We're not doing this is our Christmas show? Sure. Why, because you're gone? what you're telling me? I think I think we're both gone. Jack, what? I'll be here, but I mean, you'll be here? Gee, should we do a hammerless show? Why are you still gonna be here, dude? I'm always here. Yeah, you know, but it's not it's not me, actually. My wife is an architect and, you know, she's like hyper hyper busy. don't think she's going to be able to leave until Christmas. Tell Christmas. God bless us, everyone. She's gonna be like, she'll be there all the earlier the next morning. It's like she's her own scrooge. She's her own Scrooge and her own Bob Cratches. So you're okay. don't know. I don't know what day it is. Well figure it out. Well, this may or may not then be our Christmas show.
+
+[1:50] We can still make it a Christmas show. This show? Yeah right now. Christmas slash hot. Oh yeah, no. the 24th. Oh, wait, the Tuesdays and 24th? Yeah. Come on. 23rd. Maybe maybe not. I don't know. We'll talk about it. tweet it out if we're going to do it. Yeah? Okay. I know one person who will not be here. Who? I don't know. I really don't I don't remember when I'm leaving. Where are you going? You going somewhere nice? No, I already told you. Yeah, but they don't know where you're going. Do you not want to talk about it? I'm just staying out here. Just staying here. So you're not going anywhere. you're going to Connecticut. Yeah, but I don't know what day I will also be in Connecticut people, but thankfully, we will not be together because we need our alone time. All right? All right? Yeah, tell me about it. So you want to talk about our 12 by the way, call your questions. 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Got Jack in the booth today. Who else we got over there? didn't look when I ran in. Wyatt's here. Hey, why, what's up? Uh, can I just jump right before the show starts? I hate to keep doing this, but it's the big fundraising drive. We're almost done end of the year. And this week, we have a generous donor who's going to match donations. So it's like double bucks. Double bucks? Who's the donor? Yeah, it's a fairway market, it's going to match donations. I heard that they were like no other market. that true? absolutely true. Yeah? That's true. like no other market? She's like, what do I know? don't live anywhere near a fairway. I mean in the Hell's Kitchen. I'll make it to the Upper West side. I might as well be in Venus. Right? Uh, but I had a question for, I don't forget whether it was for Jack or for Nastasia. Now I forget what the question was. Maybe I should just answer, like, you know, real people's questions. Oh, I know. before I do that. Stas, you want to, we're doing our 12 days of steering. You want to explain it 12 days? Well, yeah, we're calling it Sears and Greetings. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But, um, you send in your videos of you and and your sears all searing something, and we may post it online. And then the prizes, if you... You get a Burns Madic TS 8000 for 10 people, and then Grand Prize winner gets one of those with a signed stairs all by you. And we're figuring out a way to post it before the thing ends, right? There's there's one up right now. Yeah? Yeah, nice. will check it out. You can go to seersall.tumblr.com. dot net.splat.org dot. That me,
+
+[4:02] that, do you know I own? Nobody likes that, me. I don't know if you still own it. Oh, I didn't pay? Nobody likes me. you go. Okay, uh, these questions in. This is from BJD. May I have a rundown of the full goose for optimum cooling and storage of vacuum
+
+[4:21] bags, sous vide meats? By the way, Bruno Gousseau is like the, so, you know, Gousseau and Joelle,
+
+[4:28] no, sorry, no, sorry, not Joe Robuchon. Like Gousteau worked with Joel Robuchon for, um, uh, you know, to come up with the 1st kind
+
+[4:34] of, uh, kind of widespread application of sous vide at the SNCF, which is the railway in France. Anyway, so that's kind of how he got into like the low temperature sous vide on the
+
+[4:42] high end cuisine side of it, although it was for a mass market application of high end cuisine with the Joel Robuchon. But Bruno Guseau, uh, was kind of the, he's kind of the granddaddy of low temperature cooking, whereas if you actually talk about
+
+[4:54] CV, You're talking about George Praluse, the Choquiere, who did the, uh, the foie gras for the uh, Tragro brothers back in France. So it's like, you know, they they compete. They're both, you know, like, I don't really know, probably, I met him once or twice. I know Gouseau pretty well. And so like, you know, he, I think they kind of maybe, they give each other a good natured ribbing, but I think they actually, they might actually dislike each other. I don't know. What do you think? You know, anyway, they're both like, like, you know, hardcore like French dudes. I love I love Goose soda. He runs a, he runs a company or, you know, big part of a company called Cuisine Solutions, uh, which they work here in the US. Anyway, Guso. So Gousseau has this theory. I'll finish the question first. Okay. I've listened to the back catalog twice, but don't recall the exact process of the full Gousseau. My Anova circulator has shipped, and I'm particularly worried about the safety of my toddler and pregnant wife.
+
+[5:44] Uh, and then have you finished the low temp primer? No, and believe me, I'm not. I'm not going to do it. But I will answer any questions regarding it. You know, someday what I should do. You know what I should do, Stas? I should just do a, because I'm not gonna, I don't have the time to write now in this stuff. But what I could do someday, if people actually wanted it, is I could do like a low temp primer
+
+[6:06] podcast, where I literally just talk you through all of the aspects of low temperature cooking that there would be in a, you know, on the
+
+[6:17] primer, if I had time to write it. Um, and then we could, you know, update it as necessary, switching or out. But if there's any, if anyone wants the equivalent of like books on tape of
+
+[6:25] the, uh, the, what do they call those things now that they're not on tapes anymore? Audiobooks? Audiobooks? If anyone wants audiobooks. If anyone wants the equivalent of a, it would be more like this because I'll be off the top of my head and I'll be like, you know, going on tangents constantly, but I could do
+
+[6:39] a, hey, Hey, would you record it, Jack? Would we do it? Yeah, yeah. Maybe somebody could do a slideshow to it, you know? Yeah, somebody. Yeah, somebody with a YouTube video. YouTube. YouTube YouTube. Anyway, I got a caller on the line whenever you're ready. Oh, okay, okay. Let me, let me, sure. okay, listen. I'm gonna I'm gonna come back. I going to talk about the full Goosell. Let me just get this caller and then we'll come back. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's David from California. How you doing? Yeah good. Hey, uh, I wanted to get some strategies from you uh, on infusing French fries with flavor. Okay. What flavor? I've done the exact opposite recently, by the way. I finally made French fry liquor and it was delicious, but it went stale the same way. So like after it was stored for a while in the refrigerator, when it came out, it
+
+[7:27] like, you know that, you know that cold stored potato smell? after it's being cooked? Like, you know how, like, when you get the, the person's like, do you want to take the French fries home?
+
+[7:35] And you're like, I don't really want to, but I don't really want to have them have to distinguish between the leftovers, the rest of the leftovers
+
+[7:40] on the plate, and the French fries are on the plate, so they stick it all in that styro, and you're tired when you get home, because
+
+[7:45] whatever. So you throw it in the fridge and the next day you smell the french fries, we all know what I'm talking about here. That happened to the liquor. So I'm working on trying to get rid of that. But anyway, go ahead. So you want to, you want to do the opposite. You want to infuse some sort of liquid flavor into a French fry, right? Yeah, well, I make a baked potato stock that
+
+[8:01] I use with mashed potatoes, and I wanted to get something like that into a French fry. Give it that real roast potato taste. Okay, do you own a vacuum machine? No, just a food saver. See, the vacuum machine would have been easy, because I've done that, you know, a lot with different flavors, like most notably vinegar, which also does a lot to change the texture of the fry because
+
+[8:27] it delays the softening of the potatoes. So they're a little harder. But, And so if you had a vacuum machine, you would just cut the potatoes off, I would, and throw them directly into the stock, not into water, because they'll absorb a lot of water there, and that's like
+
+[8:44] stealing like some of your flavor, right? So, um, the one downside, of course, of this, you might want to, what I would, hmm. Okay, let's think about this because you don't want the stars. You want to do the wash of the stars. So what I would do, probably, is cut them, do a quick rinse in
+
+[9:01] water, uh, and then like salad, spin them dry to get them as dry as possible. that way you wash that initial layer of starch off the outside, and then and then I would stick them directly into the stock and let them and let them kind of soak. Now. That way you're also going to, you know, because they're underwater on our stock, you're not going to have the oxidation, you're going to be okay. Now, what I would do is then suck a vacuum on these things, like a pretty hard vacuum. Um, and that would kind of allow me to, um, that
+
+[9:32] would, that would instantly infuse the, uh, infuse the flavor into the French fries. Now, I would say that you could do an ISI variant, but think of how many ISI cartridges you have to go through to infuse a reasonable number of French
+
+[9:43] fries. too many. Um, So what I would do is probably get one of the, um, you know, your food saver bags, how you
+
+[9:52] can, you can get them on a roll so you can make your own length. Oh, yeah, I got that. Yeah, I would make a really long one and stick the potatoes in the bottom, and now the thing is, is that you're going to have to figure out, uh, you know, you're going to need some sort
+
+[10:07] of, um, anti-crush thing in there so that it doesn't think it's reached a vacuum before it has, because that's what typically happens in one of these, in one of these situations, is that
+
+[10:16] it's very hard to get a good vacuum on liquids in one of these bags. But I'm trying to think of what you could stick into it that would prevent it from kind of instantly
+
+[10:26] cell sealing as soon as the 1st little bit of liquid starts sucking up into those little straws. I don't know. You're going to have to play around with it. And then I would just cut it and suck it, cut it, and suck it, cut it, and suck it, cut it, and suck it, and keep on trying to get the flavor in, even though, you know, I've set up a 1000000 times that
+
+[10:43] the food saver's not really ideal for vacuum infusion. It's really kind of the only it's kind of the only thing you've got here. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I guess I could buy a machine then. Well, that's kind of pricey, unless you can return it. Or, you know what you could do is the cheapest weight if you want to do infusions. If you want to do a bunch of these things is to get a refrigeration vacuum machine,
+
+[11:05] a vacuum pump, like the equivalent of like a robin air, one of the kind of larger ones or, you know, there's a bunch of different companies that make them. And then you can just put a hose, you know, crush proof hose, you know, onto a piece of, you know, like Lexan or even acrylic, really, because you're not going to be doing alcohol in this
+
+[11:24] situation, and then seal it over around vein Marie with like a sheet of rubber, suck a hard vacuum on it. And that thing is as good as a, it works as well as a as a pro vacuum machine. I mean, the vacuum's pump's not as robust and it's not as fast, but it will suck a serious
+
+[11:40] vacuum and you can do it on, like, a 3 or 45 gallon bane Marie all at the same time, which
+
+[11:46] is pretty awesome. And then you're only looking at like, you know, you can get one of those on eBay for like 150 bucks, brand new. So the short answer is that vacuum infusion is the way to go with French fries. Yeah, because they're porous. And so then what you do, right, is the flavor gets in, right? And then you, of course, you know, you boil it in the stock, not in water when you're going to do your initial boil, and then as you dry, the moisture will evaporate out and they'll leave all that excess flavor
+
+[12:13] in. And so, yeah, you should get a good result. Maybe the other way to do it is, you know, completely desiccate the stock out and then make a spice powder out of
+
+[12:20] it, but that's a real pain in the butt. Yeah, that was the other strategy I thought might work, but I
+
+[12:27] didn't, I didn't know if you played around with that sort of stuff much. No, I haven't, but the trick is, remember, to boil it in the flavor that you wanted to taste
+
+[12:34] like, and also, and that might actually, frankly, why, you know, before you go off and get all crazy, since you're going to be cooking these
+
+[12:42] potatoes until they're kind of falling apart anyway, right? Because when you're making french fries, you do your initial, you do your initial blanch,
+
+[12:50] you're really looking to, you know, cook them until they're dead, you know, just, you don't want them to shatter apart because you want them to stay whole while you fry
+
+[13:00] them. But you don't want them al dente. You know what I mean? That, not how you're going to get the best texture out of it. And if you make a really rich stock. And boil the potatoes in a very rich stock. Maybe, you know, the French fries, maybe that's enough. Maybe you don't need to infuse it all. So what I would do is take a little bit of your stock and just cook a couple of
+
+[13:17] French fries in it, you know, and see whether or not you get a good enough result. And if you do there, then you're done, then you don't have to spend any money at all. Because potatoes are pretty dang porous. That's why when you boil them in salty, salty water, they get salty, salty, salty. But of course, salt, salt is a tiny molecule, so maybe the stock stuff doesn't make it through. I don't know, run a test. Okay, that's enough for me to rent it. All righty, good luck with it. Let us know how works. All right, thanks, Dave. App appreciate it. No problem. Okay, so we're back to the Guso. Now, remember, where are we last left off? Bruno Gusseau, like the, you know, the granddaddy of low temperature cooking, as opposed to Prolu, kind of granddaddy
+
+[13:55] of sous vide. So Guseau is working on this stuff. Now, learned many years ago, probably, you know, many, many, many years ago. like the 1st time that he did a presentation at WED 50. this is, I think this is before I was working at the French culinary. I don't know Gousseau, uh, did a presentation where, uh, you know, he basically said, hey, look, when you're cooking, um, a protein, uh,
+
+[14:17] most most proteins, I think he's talking about like muscle meats, more specifically, you know, kind of mammal muscle meats, and also birds, but not, I
+
+[14:25] don't, I don't know how he feels about fish. He probably says he specifically, like, you know, weird cuts like foie gras. you know, discuss. But anyways, in fact, says won't help, doesn't matter. But, uh, when you're cooking it, you bring it up at, uh, you ramp up the
+
+[14:38] temperature. And then the way he explains it to chefs is more of like this kind of holistic uh, business where he's like, and you want to ramp it down at the same
+
+[14:45] temperature as though that, as though that makes a difference to me as though I care about that. Really, the real argument, if you talk to him, you know, you just kind of accost him about it, is that the slower the ramp rate of
+
+[14:56] chilling when you're working, the more liquids are reabsorbed by the
+
+[15:03] meat as it cools. So there's an, in Gousseau's opinion, or Gousseau's research, he's seen that there is a kind of an optimal temperature of the meat for reabsorbing
+
+[15:15] any liquids that have been expelled during the cooking process. And that optimum temperature. is lower than the cook temperature but higher than a chill temperature. So if you rapidly, rapidly chill a piece of meat, then you're not giving that meat the opportunity to reabsorb some of the liquids that it
+
+[15:34] expelled and you'll have a less juicy piece of meat. That's the guso theory. And so what Goussot wants to do is have a more gradual cool down, but still get it cool within the time parameters of safety,
+
+[15:44] all right? Now, this is not going to make a difference for things like eggs for things like foie gras or anything like that. For those things, you can just chill them, you know, whatever you want. But we used to run tests where we would, and so here's what Gusto says. Gousseau says, just pull your product out of the bath and leave it on the table, depending on the
+
+[16:02] thickness. Let's say it's like, you know, an inch and a half , you know, an inch and a quarter rib steak or something like this. Leave it on the counter for, uh, you choose. It's like, depending on the thickness, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I think up to, I think he says you can go up to 20. I never do 20, but like that's what you can go up to. Leave it on the counter, right? And that's going to slowly let the temperature go down, right? Because the air is a very bad conductor of heat. Now I actually put it on racks so that it's getting air all around it, right? So that's the 1st section. Then the next step that you do is you put the meat, the bags into tap water. So tap water isn't refrigerator temperature. somewhere close to room temperature in the, you know, in
+
+[16:44] the, in the 20s somewhere, like 20, or like 65, you know, if you're in Fahrenheit land, and you want to put them in the tap water, and you can let it run slowly so it stays at that, and that's going to rapidly bring them down to room temperature, and that's the 2nd part of the
+
+[16:59] curve. And then the 3rd part of the curve is to throw them directly into ice water. And the ice water, you know, agitated ice water is going to rapidly, rapidly drop the suckers down to, you know,
+
+[17:13] safe fridge storage temperatures. Okay, now, that's how he does it. And it guarantees, you know, for reasonably, you know, sized cuts of meat. It guarantees that the inside core is going to get cold enough fast enough, but it does the initial ramp down in a way that allows it to chill.
+
+[17:30] So typically you do like 15, 15, 15, so 15 on the counter, 15 in tap water and 15 in ice water. Now, you know, could you do like 20 on the counter and then ice water? Probably, but anytime you ramp it, he's going to say you're going to increase the, uh, you're going to increase the amount of moisture that's reabsorbed. And we, I used to laugh at it, but then we ran tests and, you know, turns out like, you know, side by side. Most people pick full good so in terms of the taste. And that's why we call it focus. So, um, I know another way to do things is if you just throw it in the fridge, it's going to ramp down slowly because in a
+
+[18:07] fridge, you have very low, uh, you know, heat, you know, transfer because of the, it's just air. But there's a bunch of problems there. A, you're shafting everything else in your fridge because you put a hot load in your fridge, and B, there's no guarantee really that the stuff's going to get down to refrigerator temperature and a reasonable amount of time.
+
+[18:22] You know, this does not, especially if you're stacking bags on top of bags. So if you're really worried about safety, I wouldn't worry about doing the full gousseau in terms of like whether it's going to get safe in time, I think that's going to be a lot safer than it is just throwing the bags in the fridge and
+
+[18:35] having done with it. What do you think stuff? Good. Uh, okay. Now, he also, he also writes, um, thanks for answering my questions last week. I did not put any Angostura turdballs in my punch bowl. Remember we were talking about like, yeah, so he did not do any turdballs. And then he says, as my other question, I feel I wasn't clear enough on my aviary and maraschino ice
+
+[18:57] question. Remember, there was a maraschino liqueur ice question that we had. Um, I think Dave thought I meant the drink that comes in a hollow ice balloon. I did think that. Though a cool presentation, it wasn't what I was after. The Martinez I had came with pebble ice, which seemed to be made from maraschino liqueur. When this ice melt, it dries the drink out as it makes it taste drier. I guess from a masquino. Would Dave happen to know how they freeze the liqueur? And is that, in fact, what they're doing? Well, you can look, you can freeze. You can freeze any dang thing. It's just, uh, it's not going to, You know, it's going to melt unlike normal ice and it's going to be really cold. I haven't seen this presentation, so I don't know what they do. But, you know, obviously the more you water down a liquor or liqueur, the more you are, you know, the less you have to overcome the, you know, the
+
+[19:44] fact that it doesn't want to freeze. So, you know, you can use any combination of cryogens to chill, um, liqueur down to the point where it's frozen, you know, LN, it's possible to do
+
+[19:56] with dry ice, but it's real pain in the butt. Um, so could you do it? Yeah, you could do it. But, um, I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to see. Someone will have to email me a picture of the presentations. I have to see how it looks. If I saw how it looked, I could determine how they did it because I can see how kind of how the melting down worked. But I don't know specifically. Anyway, next question we have in from Chris at the UNC School of Medicine. Can I use dry ice to crudle a cryo model if I don't have access to liquid nitrogen? Well, if you are at the school of medicine, I would say go steal yourself some liquid nitrogen instead of trying to use some dry ice. Right? wouldn't you say? I mean, here's my problem with dry ice. First of all, I love having dry ice and I love putting dry ice into stainless steel containers because it makes this horrible death
+
+[20:46] squeal that drives Nastasia completely bonkers. Remember that that death squeal? So you stick the dry ice into the container? Like, like, like, sticking a, like, sticking a 1000 pigs. It's like that squeal of that horrible but with metallic. It's crazy. It's awful. Love it. Because I could barely hear it. You know what I mean? Like for me, it's like, you know, I mean, it's not like I would sign up to have someone play that at a
+
+[21:12] concert. You know what I mean? But, you know, like the high register stuff doesn't make me cringe anymore. Uh, you know, too damn old and I've abused my ears too much with, uh, with the, with the loud music. But um, anyways, so there's that. There's that awful noise. And then there's the, so, and then there's the fact that it's very difficult to, um, it's very difficult to freeze things with dry ice because dry ice is not a liquid.
+
+[21:37] So you don't get complete surrounding of your leaves, of your
+
+[21:42] leaves with cryogen, right? So here's how you can do it. If you really, in other words, I'm not necessarily, I'm not recommending it, is what I'm saying. But if you were gonna do it, here's how I would do it. If you absolutely had to do it. I would take dry ice. I would get nugget form because it breaks easier as opposed to the blocks, which are really hard. I would shove a nugget into the bottom of your of your tin, and I would smash the hell out of it to a powder with a, um, with a muddler. Then you're going to add spirit to that. Uh, and it has to be pretty high proof spirit, so it doesn't, um, in fact, you'd have to get like 95%. Like you need something that's not going to solidify with the dry ice. So you need like, you know, almost technically pure liquor there. Then, once that's at super cold freezing temp, then you could use the liquid alcohol as the cryogen. Then you could stick the herbs in. And then assuming you didn't have too much liquid in there. They'd probably be brittle enough to shatter, right? Uh, at which point you could go, you could go ahead. Another way you might be able to try it is to pellet ice straight. Now you could probably use 40%, you know, like regular like liquor, just turn it into a slushy. You could use a blender for this, right? Turn it into a slushy with the dry ice, right? So now it's really, really, really, really, really cold. Then you could immerse the herbs, and it wait a 2nd for them to freeze, and then blender muddle, and it'll probably be close, probably be better than room temp blender modeling, maybe not quite as good as
+
+[23:19] actual nitro muddling. Then you're going to have to add your other ingredients and warm it back up to room temp to shake.
+
+[23:27] Otherwise, you're going to get your dilutions all messed up. But these are all things you can try. But remember, blender, like room temperature blender modeling is not that bad. It's just not as good, but do it side by side and tell me what you think. Anyway, uh, two, any reason I could not or should not attempt to fat wash a bourbon with brown
+
+[23:43] butter? absolutely not. I've had delicious brown butter fat washed things. It takes a lot, though. It's lot, right? It takes a lot. And I think you're going to want contact with those milk solids, right? The kind of brown nutty milk solids. So, you know, I would brown it, and then I would put the entire thing, including the
+
+[24:03] solids together with it, and then, uh, and then we're like, didn't Piper used to make that all the time? Or just regular butter? I don't know. You can do it. I've done it. It works. Three. Can you talk more about milk washing, tea, vodka, and if it's possible to do in the home setting? Oh, sure. So milk washing is a technique I have in liquid intelligence, the art inside, the perfect cocktail. Although, you know, I hate that subtitle. I know they like it, but I don't like the subtitle. Should have had it. But you know how I am? There's what I care about, there's what I don't care about, or there's what I care about right now, and then there's what I end up caring about later. But, like, we all know that I don't believe anything is perfect. Right? And so, like, even though, like, you know, uh, that's like Cooks Illustrated, right? I mean, like, one of the gripes I have with Cooks Illustrated, although, like, back when it came out in 93, like, you know, I had all the original charter stuff, because I used was reading it back in, you know, back then, amazing kind of game changing magazine,
+
+[24:58] obviously, you know, but, like, the one gripe I always have with them is they were always like, the best, this, the blah, this. And what they really mean is a really well researched X, Y, or Z that tackles certain problems that we, which I really appreciate. I love that, but I just don't like calling it the best. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Uh, sure. I haven't talked about the milk washing yet, right? So I have to I have to talk to that after I talk about the caller, right? Yes. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, David, it's Andy from Chicago. How you doing? Doing all right. How you doing? I'm doing great Thanks. Kind of sticking to the cocktail scheme. We're hosting a little holiday party this weekend and I wanted to get some ideas from you maybe on a little cocktail holiday punch kind of thing.
+
+[25:39] I've got your book, haven't read it yet. I'm keeping it sorted away. I have in a closet, so my girlfriend doesn't see it, but uh, given it to her for Christmas. Oh, nice. I thought you meant because you didn't, you're like, I just don't want to make any of the recipes. That's what I think. Yeah, exactly. So I just haven't seen anything yet. But, um, I had one when I was in this great cocktail bar in Austin. had kind of like a flamed rosemary. I think it also has some gin and cherry, which would be good, but just kind of wanted to pick your brain about a good holiday party cocktail.
+
+[26:07] Okay, so but you're looking to do. You're looking to do like large format. I think so, just for the sake of ease of service, um, I would be willing to
+
+[26:16] do something, you know,
+
+[26:20] but I don't want to spend all my time behind the bar. I don't want to be able to buy and hang out myself a little bit. What do you what do you have for equipment? Uh, no, no liquid nitrogen, nothing like that. Pretty standard bar present, but a good a good variety. Do you have a circulator? I do, yes. All right. So this doesn't, okay, so 1st of all, like, I don't really, in the book, so you're not missing anything for this application. In the book, I don't have any really kind of large format drinks there.
+
+[26:49] Like, typically, like when I do large format, I'm doing more like figuring out how to do, like, pitcher at a time, stir drinks, which is like super easy, right? You just put your, you put the, the undiluted, um, mix in, in, uh, in soda bottles
+
+[27:07] in like, you know, one liter soda bottles and you squeeze all the air. lets say we're going to do Manhattans, right? You squeeze out all of the air. Uh, and then, uh, you know, close them off and then you throw them in your in your freezer, you know, like the day before, 2 days before, whatever, and then they just chill down and you just have to figure out the ratios beforehand. I'm pretty sure you can get it from the look inside on Amazon. Uh, and then uh, because the recipe is there. And then, uh, you just have a, like a big picture of ice water, and then you pull out your, you pull out your mixing picture at the last minute, and you're like, blam. And now you have like, you know, a liter and a half of Manhattan that someone could pour out instantly, right? So that's, you know, one way to do it where you're, you know, basically, you know, you're not spending any time mixing drinks, but you're busting stuff
+
+[27:53] out that's at a high caliber like a Manhattan, but I don't think that's what you're looking to do. I think you're looking to get a bold. anyone can serve themselves stuff. So I don't really have any large format recipes that I make mainly because I had a bunch of friends who
+
+[28:05] are doing it and so I didn't like, I don't know, I just didn't do it. I should have done it. So what I would do is read David Wonderridge's book on Punch to figure out kind of what flavor profiles you want to make. And then I would worry about the problem of chilling, which I could help you out with. So, one of the things that, um, you know, Nastasia and back when Piper used to work with us is they used to do this thing called
+
+[28:26] uh, the wine zombie and they also had like other different kinds of zombies and they had a Santa Claus
+
+[28:32] uh, that puked up uh, holiday uh, holiday beverage. So there's a, if you have a circulator, right? So what they would do is they would take a circulator and they would shove a pipe onto the outlet of the circulator and have it either coming out of a zombie's mouth, in which case it would be puking some sort of red cocktail or, you know, blood stuff, or they would stick it into,
+
+[28:54] uh, you know, have it coming out of Santa's mouth and then it would be like Santa puking up all the eggnog because he ate too many cookies,
+
+[29:00] right? I mean, this is the theory of operation. So you don't need to go through all of that of having like a Santa head. My accurate styles. Yeah. Puking Santa. And you actually recorded your friend, uh, Phil, uh, doing like kind of deep, like Grinch like Santa vomiting noises. I'm not recommending you do this for your holiday party, by the way. Anyways, but this is a technique we use all the time to keep things cold without diluting. So what you do is, is you take your circulator, you drop it into the bucket with a couple
+
+[29:27] chunks of dry ice, and then you set the circulator, at whatever temperature you want the cocktail to be, and it will just keep it at that temperature. It won't get too cold and it won't get too hot and you can just keep your punch at the accurate level that you want it to have.
+
+[29:41] Now, if you really want to go through it, you could have a bowl with a drain and you
+
+[29:45] can have it coming like a fountain so someone could put a cup under it and then they wouldn't necessarily see the dry ice or any of that, it wouldn't look all high tech or anything like this, right? So that's that's a technique you can do. Um, you know, or another good thing is if you want to do a hot beverage. Like if you want to do like a mulled wine, right? It's cold in Chicago, right? So circulator is great for a mulled wine. So, you know, you just do like a like a glug, right? So there you can take like, and it's great for parties. You take uh, uh, you take your red wine. I think we usually use like something that's pretty dry like a cab, uh, and you, you know, and port, right? So you're mixing port and something like a cab. And you throw all your spices in. If you wanted to taste Swedish, make sure that make sure that along with the allspice and cinnamon and clove, make sure and orange peels and all
+
+[30:30] that. Make sure you throw in a hefty dose of cardamom, right? Otherwise, you know, the hell's wrong with you. You know what I'm saying? So you cook that, you cook that stuff down. Uh, and then, you know, you boil it, and then you refortify it afterwards with, you know, it sit overnight. And then you refortify it with
+
+[30:45] Akavit or with, you know, vodka, if you're so inclined. And then you correct for salt and any kind of sugar balances that you want. And then that is great, you know, with a circulator just keeping it hot. Uh, and just, you know, keep keeps it going. And that's a that's another good one. Are any of these good suggestions? I can't tell. Yep, yep, sure. Any, uh, the, the sort of medium format was good. I thought earlier than I hadn't thought about. Yeah, yeah, medium format's great because then, you know, they'll stay actually pretty good, the
+
+[31:16] Manhattans will stay pretty good, especially it depends on how nice you want the service to be. You can you can make large format Manhattan's out of your freezer like that and then pour them into Stanley
+
+[31:26] Thermuses and they'll stay pretty close to service temperature. If you've pre-chilled
+
+[31:31] the Stanley, that is. You know what I mean? Like, they'll stay pretty close to service temperature for a long time. So if you have a couple of Stanley pitchers there, you can have like thermoses of Manhattan that stay at pretty much the correct Manhattan temperature for a good while.
+
+[31:44] Yep, yep. I didn't even mention that in the book, I should have, yeah. Another good one. Give you one last good one. Here's another good one. If you're going to do something like bottle drinks, right? So you can bottle a drink that's not necessarily a punch, right? And then, um, like, you know, cap it like you would a, and this is also means you don't have to have as much glassware if you're willing to let people drink it out of the bottle.
+
+[32:07] Depends on you, right? And then you have like individual cat bottles and you do salt and ice, right? Don't do too much or you'll freeze them, right? So you have to, like, you know, kind of measure it out or do a test beforehand, and then just throw all the bottles into the salted
+
+[32:21] ice like they were beer, and then people pull the cocktails, and then they're great. You know what I mean? That's cool Yeah. I feel a little too much for me what I'm looking forward to do by this Saturday, but I like that idea a lot. Cool. Cool. Well, you know, tweet on out. Let us know what happened. Let us know how worked out. Thanks, Buck. Appreciate it. I wish we were having a wish we were having a holiday party. We could. You are the boss. Yeah, nah, I kind of the boss. not really Heritage radio is having a holiday party. Oh, just rub it in. We're having our holiday party with Peter next Monday. Yeah, we were supposed to have a holiday party, right? Which is kind of partially Booker and Dax, partially museum of food and drink. And like 13rd of the party was like, I have a
+
+[33:03] meeting, crap on you. That's our life. That's our life. Can I promote the heritage one? It's tomorrow. actually. At a place called Tandem Bar in Bushwick, open to the public too. So if anybody wants to come meet the hosts. Tandem? Yeah, no it's free. Um, yeah, tandem. tandem bar. Like one in front of the other. Are there, in fact, 2 bars, one in front of the other? Okay. And did you notice how Stas immediately went to negative and it was assuming that you were charging people... No, I thought it was for the
+
+[33:31] funniest part of the fundraiser. No, this is the... Oh, man, that doesn't make a joke. fundraiser. Oh, what's up? We got a new punster. Got a new punster. That's good. Oh, by the yeah, okay. So it's in Bushwick, tandem bar. We'll be there from 6 p.m. until the very bitter end of the night. Yeah, we've got DJs and all kinds of stuff. So at what point does it shift like to 100% hipsters? That'd be like 10 PM. Okay, cool. So if you want the pre- Scheduled. Yeah, if you want to, if you want to do the, if you want to, like, you know, miss the hipster rush, come early, right? right. That's what you're saying. All right, heap stuff. Are you going to get your, uh, everyone who's listened to the past couple episodes knows that uh, there's a new per- There's always someone at Roberta's that, look, when we're doing this show, Basically we're in a shipping container that has been covered with wood to look like you're in a wood cabin on the inside of
+
+[34:23] it. Jack accurate or not. Accurate. Okay. Outside, corrugated metal shipping container. inside, you know, it looks like we could be at that USDA inspected
+
+[34:32] abattoir because it's like, you know, totally wood cabin on the inside. But there's a giant window that faces directly onto, I'm looking at Roberta's eaters now. Like right now there's, you know, there's this date going on. The guy's chewing his thumbnail and the lady's got her chin on, you know, on her, you know,
+
+[34:50] hand. So we're trying to figure out. I think it's going well, no? He's trying to look like he's paying attention to what she's saying. They know each other. Yeah. Anyways, this is what we like, so when we're doing the radio show, like, this is what's happening. So we obviously make comments about the people that we see, especially like, you know, return people, which are usually the Roberta staff, right? Hitler's little elf or whatever he's called. Well, that's kind of a rough. That's we call him Santa's hipster. Yeah, wow. Santa's little hipster. Yeah. Hitler's elf. crazy. What's wrong with you? Brain damage. This is why you probably guys get some knowledge from what we're dealing with here. Nastasia is a deeply damaged person. You just don't get to hear what Dave says off air. What? Uh-huh. Now, I said he might look like he's like, got some sort of like, whatever, whatever. He, whatever. I'm not even... He's got a multicolored beard. He does have a multicolored beard, but he looks he looks like he's out of the Rudolph, like the red-nosed reindeer set. He kind of looks like Hermi, but a little more Teutonic, which is where Stas is getting that from a lot more
+
+[35:54] Teutonic. And like because his beard is very, very neat, but it's dyed. Santa's little hipster. Anyway, do you know him, Jack? No. Okay. I mean, you know, I say hi every day, but I feel bad. We're talking about him like he's not even a human being. Here he is working. whatever. Uh, can you talk more about milk washing, tea vodka, if it's possible to do it in the home setting? Cheers, Chris. Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So if you go to the, it's totally easy to do at home. So let's let's go super home, right? Take your tea, put it into the vodka, let it deep for a long time till it's nice and dark, then add it to the milk, just like it has in the recipe.
+
+[36:29] And the milk is going to, um, bind with some of the polyphenols
+
+[36:33] and the tea and remove some of the astringency, right? Let it sit there for a minute. Then I add citric acid, right? 15% citric acid solution. But you can add. So I add about, uh, I think it's about 15, um, 15 milliliters of that to a liter, uh,
+
+[36:51] of uh, vodka or to 750, you know, whatever I'm doing about 15 mils. So you could get away then with instead of 15 mils of that, you could get away with an ounce, right, right out of a jigger of lemon juice. It won't be quite as much acid, but it'll be pretty close. Make sure you strain it beforehand. Really strain it. And then, so you stir, remember always to stir the vodka into the
+
+[37:13] milk. Otherwise, it'll curdle if you do it the way around. And then remember to wait a little bit, and then add the, um, add the lemon juice, stir
+
+[37:22] it. It should break. You'll see it curdle up, and then just cover it. Uh, and let it sit for like an hour, and, oh, remember, in the book, I show you to like take the spoon and slowly move the, this is a key step. I think people don't do, and it's not as important if you have a centrifuge, but if you don't, this is super key. Take a spoon after you've added after it started curdled and just kind of move, don't stir it like a
+
+[37:49] lunatic, just move the curds around. And what's happening is, is it you're sweeping the curds through the liquid, and the curds are agglomerating together and getting bigger and bigger, and you're kind of mopping up the case scene that's kind of left and hasn't agglomerated into big particles yet. So just kind of move it, wait a couple of minutes, move it around again,
+
+[38:07] saying, stir, move everything together slowly, and then do that for, you know, every couple of minutes for a little while, and then let's
+
+[38:13] sit, and you'll notice that you're going to start getting a lot of very clear liquid, and you're going to be getting curds. At that point, you can just strain it through a paper towel. I wouldn't strain it through, uh, I wouldn't strain it through a coffee filter at the 1st
+
+[38:27] go because it's just going to take for freaking ever. I would strain it through either very fine, uh, you know, uh, linen napkin or a, uh, a paper, a regular paper towel, uh, because they're a lot coarser. And then if you want to get it clear, you can go through a coffee filter, but you're not even going to lose that much. It works fine. It's a little more complicated than using a centrifuge, but not really. I actually did it the last demo I did live just to show people that it wasn't that hard. anyway. Okay, there you go. Um, Okay. Hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and the rest. How do you like that one? The rest. The rest. The rest. This is from Brandon Burton, Chicago. This year, I did an injection brine on our Thanksgiving turkey, and it turned out great. I know that some folks out there, E.G.J. Kenji Alt Lopez, Lopez Alt, our anti-Brine, because it just adds water. But I was intrigued by Dave's technique of injecting turkey stock rather than just salty water. My question is whether or not Dave uses a high gelatin, uh, pressure cooked stock or a lighter, more watery version. I keep lots of gelatinous stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting a bird with the equivalent of a salty turkey Jell-O. salty turkey jello. Or if you want to sell it, if you want to sell salty turkey Jell-O, call it aspic, although no American, but if you want to sell it in France, you're
+
+[39:45] gonna, you sell it as aspic, right? Because but in American, no one wants something that has the word ass and pick together that they're going to eat. You know what I mean? ass pick. It sounds nasty, then you also have to clarify it. Hmm, aspect. And also in France, I don't know that they'd be eating a turkey aspect. They're like, Dandon, I speak to Dandon. I don't think they would buy that. You know what I'm saying? Isn't Dan Don Turkey in French? I don't know, Turk French. No, no, someone will tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure I am. Anyway, um, I keep lots of gelatin stock on hand, but I'm curious if injecting the burger with the colonos, salty turkey
+
+[40:16] jello, would negatively impact the texture or brine absorption of the meat. Best, Brandenburg, Chicago. Well, I don't know. I did, I used a gelatinous, hardcore, uh, pressure cooked stock with like a boat ton of wings. The entire carcass of the of the bird, um, and I started with, did I start with chicken stock? I might have and I think I started with water. I start with water. But yeah, it was gelatinous. In other words, it's self-set. But I injected it. Um, I injected it at room temp, right? So I did it, or even a little warm. I did it right. Did I do it right before? I did it very soon before I did to cook, right? So I salted the meat, uh, beforehand, and then I didn't super salty, the,
+
+[41:05] um, the stock. I just salted it a little more than regular stock, which is completely unsalted, right? And so I injected it and then cooked it very, very soon thereafter. So I don't know if you did it like days before what would happen, but no one noticed any sort of Jelloness to
+
+[41:24] the to the meat, you know, and it tasted delicious. Everyone's, I mean, people, they liked that injected flavor better than they liked it when I did it all low temp, you know, with
+
+[41:37] the, uh, what do we call that one? What do we call the exoskeleton bird? Bionic turkey. Yeah, bio turkey. So anyway. So I don't know. I don't know technically, but I know my results were good. I did use a gelatinous stock. Oh, we've never taken a break, have we? No, we're reaching the end. You want to take a quick break or you want to blast through? We'll blast through. Blast through. Okay. Jeremy writes in, hi, my parents have sent us a giant rib roost for Christmas dinner, but I'm stressed about cooking such a big and expensive piece of
+
+[42:06] meat. I'm curious if it makes sense to cook it low temp. Uh, the center would be done perfectly, but how would the crust be with only a short blast in the
+
+[42:14] oven? I have a circulator, a seresol, and a normal residential oven. In short, how would you cook it? Thanks very much, Jeremy. All right, well, here's what I would do. Um, I would, I've told this story a bunch, but one time I did a low temp on a, on a rib roast, and
+
+[42:33] then, um, just did a quick finish off on the outside, and it was terrible because it's a huge, the huge interior of the meat is all the same doneness, and it turns out that you want, you like rib roast,
+
+[42:46] right sauce? And what's your favorite part? I don't know. You don't know, Jack, do you like rib roast? Sure. What's your favorite part? The favorite part would be, though. I know mine. You know, the outside part of it. So like, you know, the rib, there's the eye, and then there's that layer of like fatty, like layered,
+
+[43:01] like deckly stuff that goes around it. You know what I'm talking about? Can you picture a rib in your mind? There's the bone. Then there's the eye that's attached directly to the bone and then there's that thing that wraps around it. Right? That part, when it's overcooked and all crunchy on the outside and the fat's all crunchy. That's my favorite part of it. My favorite part. It properly cooked? No, it's overcooked. Is it my favorite part? Yeah. So, you know, you don't want at a rib roast. You kind of need that, but what you don't want is to lose the ends of the rib because they're overcooked, and you don't want the main eye to be overcooked. In fact, you don't want that eye to be overcooked at all. So here is what I would do. This is the technique I would use. I would um, and in fact, this is what I do do. I uh, usually cut the um, cut the roast off of the bone, right? Then I low temp the entire rib roast, and then I cook the bones down. Then I, uh, kind of, you don't have to remove the bone. I do just because it's, the last time I did it, I couldn't fit it all in. Then normally what I'll do is I'll take the low temp cooked rib
+
+[44:09] roast, and I'll tie it back to the bone, right, after it's cooled down. Now you have the center of the rib totally nicely done. And now I'm not talking a short blast in the oven. Just, you can turn the oven higher than you normally would, and then you throw the rib roast in there, tied back to the bone, and then you
+
+[44:27] get, so it's as protection. Then you get the roasted flavor of the of the rib bones, which all, you know, all bone gnars love, right? Are you a bone gnars does? No, jack bone gnar. Yes. Well, I mean, you know, if it's good stuff. Yeah. And also, if it's dry aged, you know, you don't want to necessarily, like, low temp it with the bone on because it's going to really infuse too much kind of dry-age flavor. Okay. So then you're looking at just doing, instead of cooking it for hours and hours, you're looking at like a 45
+
+[44:56] or, you know, minute or hour at a high temperature and yeah, you're overcooking the outside of the meat, but that's kind of what you want. And that's what I would do. And then I would pull it out and if you have any places that don't have a good looking crust on it when it's all said and done. Just hit it with a sears all, just to like crust it the outside and you're done. What do you think, stuff? That's how I would do it. In fact how I have done it. Um, okay. Uh, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Next question. Hammer and the nails. Not sure if this is still the right email to use, but I was listening to the recent episode on making stock in the venting slash
+
+[45:28] non venting pressure cookers versus a stock pot, where we had said that, uh, you know, I don't know why the venting pressure cookers. So, you know, the theory is, you know, in my experience, if you use a pressure cooker like
+
+[45:40] Coon Recon that doesn't vent, that it makes a superior stock to traditional stock in an open kettle.
+
+[45:46] Uh, and that if you use a venting pressure cooker, i.e. one that like sprays out uh, steam as it goes, that in fact it makes a stock that tastes inferior to even an open kettle and vastly inferior to the coon recon style.
+
+[45:59] Anyway. Um, I think the answer lies in the higher temperature and the venting pressure cooker, increasing the volatilization of aromatic chemicals preferably over the rest. In other words, like more than the, the, getting rid of the nice aromatics more than the other ones. Since by their nature, they tend to have a fairly low boiling points leading to the flavor venting off to the room. I'm also guessing if you captured the steam and condensed it out, you'd find a rather larger set of flavor causing aromatics, then you would get from the stock pot due to that effect. Anyway, love the show, hope you make it back out to Seattle sometime. Mike. I don't know. Don't know. I don't know. Someone will have to run the test and tell me. All right. Got 2 questions in from the Twitter that I said I would answer. Here we go. Uh, at said Walking Drunk wrote me and said, do you have a time temperature recommendation for low temperature lamb
+
+[46:44] hearts? I don't, but I'll tell you, you know, I don't cook enough mammal hearts, although I love, you know, I love a chicken heart, Stas. You like chicken hearts? Jack, chicken hearts? Yeah, actually, I tried them and they're really good. like on a skewer. Yeah, they are like, like, okay, so like, like, in terms of parts of a chicken, right? You got, in my, in my estimation, you got the skins and the hearts are right up there, and then you got like the meat afterwards. You know what I mean? First the dark meat, then the light meat. Light meat's like down, down. They got the chicken feet somewhere in there near the near the light meat. Anyway. Um, I love chicken hearts. But anyway, lamb hearts. Um, so here's the issue, right? Heart muscle is is chewy. right? And that's kind of what I like about chicken hearts because the size of them and duck hearts. The size of them is very nice. So when you eat one, you can get a kind of a crusty thing on the outside and it's chewy, and it's that chewiness, that very chewiness that I enjoy. Right? So, Question is, like, what are you trying to do? You're trying to make it unchewy or not? Because it's gonna be chewy if you low temp it. So your only choice then is to low temp it for so long that you're actually getting protein breakdown in in the muscle. So you're going to have to cook it for days, you know, days to get it to, and then it might not taste good anymore because it might not taste chewy.
+
+[48:15] From a temperature standpoint. I think you could cook it at whatever you would normally cook, you know, that stuff at. So like anywhere between 55 and 57, depending on how you want it to be. I would probably probably go somewhere like 55, 56 for that. But you're talking now, you're going to have to, I, what I do is I would take, I would take 3 bags, 4 bags, 5 bags, and I would
+
+[48:38] cook one for 24 hours. I would cook one for 48 hours, one for 72 hours, and then
+
+[48:45] one maybe even for whatever 4 days is in hours. And then, uh, pull them, uh, chill them, and then uh, deep fry them all because, or roast them because you still need a crust on the outside. You know what I'm saying? Jack, you want you want an uncrusted heart? No. No. But for testing, I wouldn't do that. For testing, I would just retherm them and taste the meat to see what the texture tastes like before you make them all taste good by
+
+[49:07] crusting them up. But I would, I would, I would test that uh, and see kind of uh, whether or not you get a good result. And if you do do that, I would definitely tweet in and tell me what happened so that I
+
+[49:19] can figure out whether or not it was, whether or not it was good or it was bad. I was gonna say, too, Duckheart may be one of the most delicious things I've ever had, too. Yeah, you like it, the duck card? Duck card is good. I think they're out of time, though. I got one more quick one. Blast through. All right. At Zang wrote in. Cooking issues. Any tips for keeping biffon crut from getting soggy bottom. Soggy bottoms. Gross word, right? Yep. Yeah. Vending doesn't seem to help venting the pastry. So we're talking about beef wrapped in a crust. Cooking issues. I also won't have a circulator with me to avoid moisture loss from the meat, and the duck cells, the duck cells, is, you know, the mixed kind of mushroom, cooked mushroom slash, you know, shallot or whatever, mixture cooked, chopped up that you put with these things or with, like, you know, with a beef Wellington or with, you know,
+
+[50:07] beefelcuta or something like this. The duck cells are cooked as dry as possible. All right, here are my recommendations for it. I really would if you could do a pre-cook on the meat so that you're not getting as much drip loss. Like that's really the only thing that's going to save you here is preventing the drip loss out of the
+
+[50:25] meat, which is causing the bottom of the crust to be soggy. So obviously if I had a circulator, I would uh, sear the hell out of the outside of the meat, I would then circulate it till it was done, cool it down, wrap it in puff pastry, and then stick that puff pastry in a really, really hot oven just
+
+[50:42] to, not really, really hot, but like, like hot enough to cook the puff pastry without really cooking the meat that much.
+
+[50:49] And that way you're going to get a nicely cooked pus pastry because even no matter what, even if you don't get a lot of moisture loss, you're going to get a little bit of gumminess around it.
+
+[50:55] Now, the duck cells is there to provide a barrier so that you don't have that much problem, right? And it's a thermal barrier. So like a lot of dried duck cells around is going to is going to help you. However, they're not that absorbent. So you're not, you're still, as the juices drip out of a raw piece of meat down into the into the bed of the puff
+
+[51:14] pastry. It's going to get soggy and no amount of vending's going to help that. I'm presuming you're saying soggy, you said soggy on the bottom. Yeah, soggy bottoms. Now this is not traditional and may not even taste good, but if you were to line the bottom underneath it with dry rusks,
+
+[51:31] do you like the word rusk? Sure. Rusks. Like some sort of like dried biscuit or bread. It could maybe act like a sponge and a thermal barrier, right? So you could get good cook off of your pastry, so it's not soggy, so it starts out life nicely. And then also that could absorb some of the, like, bloody juices as they come in. Maybe it's texturally good, maybe it's texturally bad, but that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head because that Twitter just came in. Let us know whether you like these ideas or what's going on. Do the 12 days of steering. Join Heritage Radio Network. If I don't talk to you, happy the holidays. cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[52:18] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit wholefoodsmarket.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking issues coming to you land. Bushwick, Brooklyn, and the Heritage Radio Network. Roberta's Pizzeria, Happy New Year. And we got, as usual, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. you doing? And just Jack in the booth today. Just Jack. Wow. I didn't mean it like that, Jack. I meant it like that. Josh Jack. Well,
+
+[0:55] happy New Year to everyone. And this is the 1st time we've been together. Actually, I haven't seen you, Nastasia, since I saw you briefly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, you know, not really. So we got to talk about Jack, let's start with you. What do you, what do you do for the food wise. for the uh, for all the various uh, holidays. Food wise. Well, let's see. I can't really say anything great about the holiday meals I had, but I did have an awesome meal at North
+
+[1:18] End Grill with my girlfriend and had some really delicious ramen. Went to hide Chen, the place by Toto. I was really good. Toto, the toilet manufacturer? Yeah. They make ramen now too. Nice. Pretty good. Toto does make fine toilets, so. different people. Yeah, different people Toto, the world's finest toilet seats, in my estimation. Study, right? That's good stuff. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Japanese toilets are by far and away the greatest toilets that I've ever used in my life, light years ahead of our American
+
+[1:49] toilets, and, you know, as a farm to toilet devotee, I think we often, in our cooking endeavors, don't pay enough attention to the toilet aspect of it. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, and I am, and I've said this, I think before on the air, you did. This was your response to the slow food event we had. Right, but I'm personally ashamed as an American that we don't have native toilet seat technology that anywhere approaches what they have in
+
+[2:17] Japan. It's just, it's just an embarrassment. Speaking of Japan, I have to say I got a bottle of the Yamazaki scotch. That is a delicious product. It's damn good, yeah. Delicious. Not much smoke, but I don't mind. was really good. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I love the Yamazaki. I love which one did you get? The 12. Yeah. The Habiki also do all those. you know that those guys bought Jim Beam? Isn't that weird? Yeah, weird, right? weird world is weird. What about you, Stas? how's your holiday food stuff? It's friends and families. They don't care about food. Nothing spectacular. Like, what do you have on the Christmas? Nastasia was in Connecticut for Christmas. What do you have? For Christmas? I don't know. It was that? Oh, no, it was steak. yeah Overcooked? Yeah Oh, have to shout out. no, no, no. actually okay. Yeah, yeah. Where's your shadow, J? Greenpoint Fish and Lobster. I forgot. I went and bought oysters and rainbow trout for my dad's Christmas Eve, and it was really good. Nice. How do you do the rainbow trout? Broiled. Yeah? Good? Yeah, it was good. Hard to mess up. good piece of fish. Jack was it dry? It wasn't. It wasn't that dry. Look, shroud is one of those things that, um, like, for instance, the taste of smoked trout, love, love, taste of
+
+[3:34] smoked trout. always too dry. Even with the oil that's in it, whatever. Let me handle it with Peter. Where at Russian place? Was that trap? Adam I don't know. I don't remember what it was. Was it dry? No, I don't think it was dry. Smoked trout is often dry, but you didn't smoke it. You just broiled it. I love trout. Trout's good. It's like one of the few kind of fresh watery kind of fishes that I enjoy. Jack, what's my least favorite freshwater fish? Oh, white onion? Yes, diamond, right? No, Tlap 1st of all, Tlapia, yeah. Yeah, 1st of all. But you don't even eat that, so you can't. It's not like, well, it's like, you know, it's the worst, as we all know. You know, I look forward. My New Year's resolution is to stop other people from eating tilapia. There's got to be some other, like, crap fish that they can grow in its own filth for almost nothing that tastes better, right?
+
+[4:23] There's gotta be something. Something. I know. Uh, okay, uh, what did I have? Well, I had I bought two. I bought an extremely large standing rib roast, and I did my normal, like, took it off the bone, low tempted, chilled it, and then did a roast off. And that was good, but then there was too many, like everyone in my family was sick. Like on both sides. everyone sick. So I cut it in half because there wasn't as many people eating it before I did the retherm on it. And then the 2nd half, I staked off into like, ooh, I don't
+
+[4:58] know, how big is this dust? Is that like an inch and a half, inch and a half, somewhere around there, an inch and a half, between an inch and a
+
+[5:03] half and 2 inches? I staked off the 2nd half of the of the rib rose? because I got the full, you know, rib, right? Uh, and actually, you know what? I have to say, no matter what, I like it better when it's staked off and seared each steak seared individually and then sliced the other way. I just think it's a lot better than eating the big slices of
+
+[5:23] prime rib. As much as I loved the 70s and 80s going to those crappy steakhouses and getting the big slice of prime
+
+[5:30] rib. It's just always a little too cold in the center by the time you get to it, there's too much of that stuff.
+
+[5:34] What are your thoughts on the steak or staked off or the whole prime rib? It's staked off, I think. Steak dog. Definitely. Yeah, except for for sandwiches. For sandwiches served cold, you want state, you want like the whole thing and then sliced very, very thinly, but you wouldn't really do that with a standing rib
+
+[5:52] roast because that's a freaking waste. You know what I'm saying? For a roast beef sandwich? Waste. I don't know. So anyway, but here's what one you'll like, Stas, because even though it's actually French, it's like close to Swiss. I guess maybe it could be Swiss too. You like raclette? So I did a, I did a cheat, cheating, and it's good sears all that, actually. I did a cheating, uh, Rocklette. So, you know how, like, Rocklette, you got, like, the, the, right? And then you got the boiled taters and whatever else you got, and then you melt the cheese on a broiler and then you scrape the crap off and then you put it on the stuff,
+
+[6:23] right? But do you really want the potatoes to be boiled? Or do you prefer if they're roasted? roasted, I guess. Yeah, right. So I took the, I did, what could I get a hold of? I got a hold of Yukons. Uh, you know, planked them out, then roasted those suckers in the oven, drained off all the extra oil because
+
+[6:40] Rucklett's got its own. And then and then so I then I put those out in the dish, graded the rucklet, and don't get angry, but I graded the rucklet, right? Shredded, rather. And then here's the thing. Instead of the corny shell, are you ready for it? ready for it? Cocktail onions. The vinegar cocktail onions, because onions and taters, good, but I wanted something crunchy and kind of vinegary to offset the fact that I was about to dump like a boatload of like super heavy, like, you know, full fat cheese on top of
+
+[7:03] that, some gun. So did the roasted taters, then the cocktail onions, rocklet, sears all. Bueno. La bueno. Muy bueno. could have done it in the oven if you didn't have a series all, but series all just toasted up the cheese, mess, and mess. I think that's bad. I don't think I did anything. Oh, New Year's, I did the Zampone. You know Zamponi from Modena, which is the whole pig's foot. Like, uh, you gouge out all the meat in the pig's foot, then you stuff it with the same sausage mix that you would have uh,
+
+[7:32] kotakino in, and then uh, did that with lentils. That was nice. And then on New Year's proper, right? I go, 1st of all, in the fine, I shop at the fine fair, which is my local kind of, I don't know, I'm not, I've been shopping there for a long time, so I'm not going to say anything negative about the fine fair
+
+[7:46] people. But it ain't no fairway and it ain't no, what is their motto again? like no other market? Anyway. It's like no other market. Like no other market. I tell you a story about, like, maybe 15 years ago when the
+
+[7:58] fairway 1st moved into West Harlem over there by the, uh, that's where my art studio used to be when I was in
+
+[8:04] school and more than 15 years ago, almost 18, 19 years. anyway. So I'm there. And there's this guy wandering around, literally wandering around,
+
+[8:14] Fairway going, not so special, not so special, like, like right on the border of homeless, that border, right between homeless and not homeless, not so special. That's my memory of the home. Like, at the time, like, that was kind of a game changing market. dude, what does it take? Like, what does it take for you to think a market is special? They have like an indoor, like, walk in meet? And it wasn't like the one, remember, like, we have some kind of rough indoor refrigerated meat markets here in New York, like
+
+[8:43] big Apple down by you. rough, right? Western beef has that, right? Anyway, it's kind of awesome. So saying not so special, weird. anyway, I don't know where I was going with that. Oh, yeah. So at my fine fair, I got the last bag of
+
+[8:56] black eyed peas in the whole place. The last, very last one to make what? you know what? Hopping John. You like Hoppingjohn? Oh my god, you take like your ham hocks or whatever, pork neck bones, whatever, smoked. Star strings. Yes, as Nastasia has the complete collection of Rudolph, the red-nosed reindeer. The Bumble. Well, you have to buy all four. So the 4 figurines are Santa Claus. Uh, Rudolph, and just not happy in my work, I guess. That's, well, you guys got to know the show anyway. And Hermi, Yukon, Cornelius. and Santa, who's the weakest because he's such a jerk in that. Yeah, until the end, right? And then he's okay. No, Rudolph. you know what I mean? At the end, he's like, fine, but like in the beginning, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, not really nice to the elves when they're singing to him. You know? And then needs work. I have to go. right? And then he leaves and then it's like, he's just a jerk the whole time until the very end. Anyway, but anyway, you buy all 4 figures and then you send away and you get the bumble, which is the abominable snowman. And Stas has the entire... Bumble was shipping and handling,
+
+[10:04] though, which is... Yeah, it's probably cost them 295 to make, so they're breaking even. Slick. Slick. Anyways. But we were talking, oh, hop and John. So Hop and John is a traditional New Year's Day thing and it's, you know, anyway, it's like ham hocks, I use pork neck bones,
+
+[10:21] whatever. Uh, and, you know, black-eyed peas, and you simmer that. I use I use both. I use peppers, I use red and green peppers, and you just simmer the heck out of that, and then
+
+[10:31] you eat, you know, onions, obviously. I add a little garlic. I dont know if you're supposed to. I had a little thyme. don't know if you're supposed to. Um, and, you know, simmer that until that's done. And the cornbread. And the collard greens. Delicious. Collard greens, money, Hop and John, I think also money or luck. and then the cornbread gold. New, right? That's why the day before with the Zampone, right? You're supposed to do the classic accompaniment for that in for the Italian would be lentils. Lentils also little coins. Money. Money. Money. I have a caller who's been patiently waiting. Well, what are you telling me? Call her, you're on the air. Hey, I have a question for you about the Spears all. Okay. I've been loving mine so far. I've taken it camping. I use it in my office, make like eggs and toast. Where do you live? A little bit of burnout on the screen. Okay, where do you where do you live, 1st of all? What's that? Where do you live? Jacksonville, Florida. Oh, nice. Okay. Um, and so I was wondering if it's possible to, I mean, I know it'll avoid me warranty or whatever, but if I switched the metal screens out for like
+
+[11:40] molybdenum mesh or something, if that will mitigate the, um, the bulging and burn out. Okay, on the rear screen? Uh, I don't know either or. Well, the front screen, if the rear screen doesn't have a problem, the front
+
+[11:55] screen's never going to have a problem. Okay. that's that's just like, that's like the truth. There's a, I forget why. There is a reason that we don't use, um, malydanum. I forget what it is, why we don't use it. Um, I researched a bunch of, I guess this is good a time to say as we're looking into the possibility of the metal you want to use in in to
+
+[12:24] plate. First of all, you don't want to make an entire screen out of one of the different
+
+[12:28] metals because most of them don't have the strength to stand up to stuff, you know, things the way
+
+[12:35] that, you know, like a Conthal or a 693 is going to. But, um, you know, what you're really looking to do is plate with a metal typically. And so what we're looking at is Palladium. Palladium is what you want to use. Uh, for its, um, it's high, high temperature and, um, food safe because, you know,
+
+[13:00] they they use like that series of metals in, um, in things like dental
+
+[13:05] work. So like you want something like that. And so we're looking into, um, we're looking into the possibility of
+
+[13:14] making, uh, palladium coated rear screens, uh, that would be just a straight swap out in the
+
+[13:21] seers all. So, you know, if you happen to know a metal, uh, plater, they could plate your rear screen in Palladium for you if you can't wait for us to do it.
+
+[13:31] And if the rear screen's coded in Palladium, that nothing else is ever going to happen to it. It won't cook any different, obviously. But, um, anyway, so that's kind of like long and short what we're looking, what we're looking at, um, doing is doing that. And then, you know, we anticipate that you would never have to replace the, um, the rears. And at fronts, you would only have to replace if you smash them into something or something like this. Now, uh, you know, if you were plating one or two, you know, you might as well just plate the front end
+
+[14:07] rear because why the heck not, it's going to cost. I doubt they're going to charge you any more for plating 2 screens than they do one because I'm sure most of the cost is going to be the setup time, but that's what I
+
+[14:16] would, that's what I would do. The crucial thing with the rear screens, or the front and the rear screens, is getting the spacing somewhat correct. So if you were to get a rear screen out
+
+[14:27] of, you know, some other mesh, but you didn't have the same kind of percentage of open area or you didn't have, you know, that fundamental kind
+
+[14:36] of relationship correct, then it would, um, it would cause problems. I wouldn't worry about the warranty too much. You know what I mean? Right, okay. Is it making any sense? I forget why off the top of my head why I ruled out malindinum. I mean, because I looked into all of those. I forget why. Um, but yeah, I mean, the one to go for is uh, Palladium. Okay, sweet, can you, can you just get solid poladium screen somewhere or do you have to get them plated? Only if you're constructed out of money. I don't think any, I don't I don't know of any. I don't know of anyone that makes Palladium wire. Uh, I'm, maybe somebody does, but, um, I don't know anyone that makes it, but the cost would be intense.
+
+[15:22] You know what I mean? Maybe, again, not for one screen. Like, if you can get someone to send you a sample, they may find, but like, there's no way that I could, like, there's no way that I could ever afford to make, like,
+
+[15:32] solid, the palladium screen, that one screen would cost more, probably, as much or more than the rest of the sears all combined. You know what I'm saying? Um, you know, as is 693 is kind of spendy. And then it's like 693 costs a lot more than Conthal does, which is the which is the metal that the most of the screens are made out of. Um, yeah, and I, you know, I looked into just the per pound cost on Palladium and it's just bananas. And then furthermore, you'd have to get it, probably have to get custom wire made and then a custom cloth woven out of it and then making the screens out of
+
+[16:09] it. So it's just really expensive. Whereas, like, plating, you're, you know, you're paying for the setup cost and then for the thickness of palladium that's coded onto your onto your screens, which is, you know, not that much. Okay. And Palladium is very, very, very corrosion resistant. And very high, very high temperature, and, you know, rated fairly easy, doesn't, you know, I've done scratch tests on it and all this other stuff, and it's, it's,
+
+[16:39] it's, it's pretty, it's pretty good. Again, it doesn't change the cooking of it at all. It's just gonna protect that rear screen from, um, having too much deformation. And if the rear screen gets deformed too much, that's when you start seeing problems with your front screen.
+
+[16:55] Okay, I got you. Cool. All right. That was, that's a perfect answer. Thank you. All right, thank you. All right. Wait, what were we talking about for? Guitar strings? Yeah, no, I think you were going into the questions. Oh, we were about to go into the questions? Oh, nice. All right, cool. Well, you know what? Today, it's not mainly questions. It's people giving us feedback on stuff that, you know, which I like. It's like New Year feedback, which I appreciate. Um, This inn from uh, James, uh, Nazarov. Um, I think. Hey, Dave, Nastasia. And wow, insert names here. Well, it's just Jack today. Just Jack. Uh, I just wanted to, uh, write a follow-up to my Twitter question last week on how to keep the bottom of a booth
+
+[17:43] encroot from getting soggy. Remember that? who's doing the beef tenderloin wrapped in the pastry and then cooking it because soggy bottoms, which is like soggy bottoms. Is that, was that the name of George Clooney's group in that, in that movie, whole brother where art thou? Soggy bottoms? I don't know. He doesn't strike me as a Cohen brothers kind of a... Jack doesn't strike me as a Cohen. more of a Corn Brothers character, unless of a Coen Brothers watcher. yeah No, I'm a huge Coen Brothers fan. Yeah? What were the name of those guys? Soggy Bottom boys? Soggy Bottom boys, yeah. That wasn't my favorite. I like that movie a lot, but it's not my favorite. You didn't like all the, like the, you didn't like the allegory aspect of it? I did. No, I really, they haven't done a film I don't like, but I really like a serious man. No one else loves that, but I like that. which one's that one Um, there weren't too many known actors. just kind of a, and there's no real plot. That's why people didn't like it. was it? It was probably like 4 years ago. Oh, yeah. See, that's I haven't like, you know, you got to go way further back from me to know I've seen them all. You know what I'm saying? Okay. The challenges posed were thus. There was a six hour drive ahead of us. I was unable to bring equipment, namely my circulator, and the tenderloin to be cooked was at the final destination already. This is an interesting problem. Although, you can always... Although maybe it's maybe they don't want, maybe like, maybe you're dealing with someone like my stepfather, Gerard, who's like,
+
+[19:02] ah, the Mishigosh, what the heck? You know what I mean? Stas knows these people. Hey, your family's like that, right? They give you problems. problems. I understand that. The home kitchen, I was to be using, had limited equipment and the absolute worst electric range
+
+[19:16] ever. And by worst, I mean, it's 40 years old, has hot spots all over the oven, and only 2 burners seem to be able to draw any power if the oven is on.
+
+[19:24] That does suck. That's crap. And I suppose they didn't have enough ventilation feeder to throw logs into the freaking oven and light them on fire. That would be sweet. Anyway, um, don't do that ever. Anyway, I have made the buffon crout for several Christmases running. Each being, each being progressively made from larger portions of Tenderloin. Last year was two thirds of the muscle, and this year was the whole dang thing. I added dang, dang was me. Despite using the same method, the larger the cut, it seemed the softer and wetter the bottom had become. That's because that's interesting. I wonder why. I wonder why. Um, Soft and wet at the bottom had become. I didn't want to go to the root of cheating. There's so many recipes for Wellington suggests and adding a layer of craves between the pastry and the other ingredients. Your suggestion of a layer of rusk didn't sound overly appealing either. I wanted to keep the flavor simple and knew the range I was to use would fight against me as much as possible. I took your advice and pre-cook the tenderloin entirely. With an uneven oven, a lack of circulator, or large pieces of cookware to brown on. I browned the tenderloin carefully under the broiler, then brought it up to 130 in the
+
+[20:26] core in a 300 degree oven, let it rest for 15 minutes, and then chilled it for 4 hours. All right, that's good. That's good pre-cook, right? Pre-cook. She done. The mushrooms and shallots are pureed raw, which is interesting, and cooked long and slow in butter. The rationale being that cooked dry as possible meant little moisture could escape and exacerbate the sogginess problem. I cooked under the brink of being dry and crumbly. My culinary school instructors would have a kitten over that. Despite not wanting to use rusk, I ran with your idea of an absorbent, this is an interesting idea here. You might like this because you like iTalent. Well you don't really like a town. It's northern Italian though. don't like them. be like the food. And the place. Yeah. Um, although nails would come back and say that this is actually a Swedish thing. Anyway, I blitzed some dried porcini mushrooms into powder. Right? When it came time to wrap the pastry around the tenderloin, I spread out the duxelles on the pastry, then lightly sprinkled the porcini powder on top of the duxelles,
+
+[21:21] layering, extra on the part of the pastry that would be the bottom. So it's using the using that as like the sponge, the porcini powders, but an interesting idea. The wrap tenderloin was decorated, heavily vented, egg wash and chill for 2 hours. The result turned out fabulous. It was baked at 450 for 10 minutes, and then turned down to 325 until the core was reheated up to 120. While the hotspots that led to some over browning, hotspots in the oven led to some over browning on the top. This I also believe caused the uneven leavening end or minor tearing or the pastry near the venting. The result was otherwise spot on. No juices escaped beyond the mushrooms and the pastry was crisp all the way around. Only some minor butter leakage was to be found, butter leakage. butter leakage. Stas is making her butter leakage face. On a sheet pen afterwards. The tenderloin was succulent and juicy and the duck cells were moistened by any escaping juices, thus leaving the pastry dry on the bottom.
+
+[22:08] Thanks again, James. See, I think the key there. Excellent work. uh excellent work. I think the key there is the pre-cook on it. You're getting rid of a lot of those juices that would be flowing out and getting into the
+
+[22:19] pastry. And it's not like it's on the initial cook is when you're losing most of those juices into their pastry anyway.
+
+[22:25] It's not like those juices are making the meat any juicier. They're just making your pastry soggier. So I think that's a good way to go. Uh, and then we got next question in, hello, uh, New York. I finally got an emergency. is a question, not a comment, I think. You want the comments 1st and the question, you don't care. Are you, yeah. Are you doing the joke one too? No. I'm offended that you don't think I read them and you're like... All right, so I got a question. Someone sent someone who... You saw it over the break too. I know. Someone, look, someone who is challenged in the arts of writing
+
+[22:57] emails, requesting things in English requested something from Booker and Dax, the bar. I'm not going to read it. What if they hear? And then like they hear that we're insulting what they wrote? But it was the craziest request for an email ever. Although a delicious sounding dinner, I might say. You don't think it'll be good? No. No? Nope. You don't want like a side of one in the, no? All right. It's not like, I'm gonna put it this way. It's not like the one that I tweeted out. It's not spaghetti and potatoes. Like the one that I got tweeted out, that my son was... Ow. A starch and a meat. Starch, meat. But that meat would never go with that starch. No, no. Whatever. Whatever. I can't tell you guys what we're talking about because I don't want to insult anyone, but whatever, crazy email. Crazy. Anyway. Okay, I finally got an emerging circulator. I'm now in my messing around stage, messing around stage. That sounds like a weird, like, kind of relationship time. by messing around stage. And then I'm messing around stage, I bought a sirloin tip and dice it into fairly large one.
+
+[24:08] 5 to 2 inch cubes. I cooked everything for about 8 hours and the meat became dot, dot, dot, dense. Dense. Not dry or tough, but certainly not melting your mouth tender. I'm wondering since sirloin is comparatively lean cut, would it ever become as tender as say, um, ribsteak or filet? Now, listen. Listen, filet is only tender because it's got no connective tissue in it, right? Fillet, if you cooked filet for a long. saying this right now, so everybody knows. If you cook filet for a long time, low temp, what happens is it turns to paste, turns to like
+
+[24:42] mush because it has no connective tissue to hold it together, and it has nothing to render out and get and get gelatinous, right? Um, To me, like, you know, the one that can tenderize a little bit is like a
+
+[24:54] ribsteak, you can tenderize by long cooking or anything else that has more connective tissue in
+
+[24:59] it where the underlying meat itself is still tender. So skirt steak, you can cook for, um, you know, like 24
+
+[25:07] hours and it'll just get more and more and more tender, right? What is it? What's the other one I'm looking? No, you want to cook skirt day for 24 hours. Like 8 hours. Oh, am I stupid? Stupid? What am I stupid? What I meant to say is you take like a short rib and you cook it for like 24 hours, it'll have the texture skirt steak, and if you cook it for another 24 hours after that, then it'll start having the texture
+
+[25:28] of steak. So it's all about the breakdown of, uh, connect the tissue there, but you would never typically want to do any longer cooking on like a
+
+[25:37] tenderloin. In fact, I never pasteurized tenderloins because I don't like to cook them longer than about 45 minutes to an
+
+[25:44] hour or something like that. Anyway. Um, okay. At the moment, I can't recall the mouthfeel of conventionally braised sirloin beef stew, vexing. Also, vexing. I like that. I like anything with an X in it. That's why Dax is named Dax. Three letters with an X. how he chose his name. Anyway. And we didn't want Rex, because Rex, my wife says, sounds like a dog, even though that's my great grandpa's name. Do you think it sounds like a dog? Yeah I guess so. What's the long of Rex? It's not. Oh. That's why I liked him because I didn't want something that was shorter for something else. And Rex was the only one I could think of that because it means king. It's short for nothing In what language? Rex Latin. Yeah. Anyway. Uh, I guess it does sound me. I guess the guys at Night at the Museum 3 thought it sounded like a dog, because that's what they named, uh, Tyrantosaurus Rex. Rex and death. What a jerk I am. What a moron. There's a name Rexford. Rexford? Yeah. Or Rexler? isn't that like a college? What's Rexford is a person's name? Seems like it. Yeah, can be a 1st name. Well, kudos to all you Rexford's out there. You don't sound, doesn't sound like a dog to me. I like the name. Anyways. This is why you should never tell other people the names that you're thinking of having for your kids. You ever notice? Like, if someone's pregnant that you know. Don't ask them what they're thinking of naming their kid. Because then if they tell you, you're gonna ruin it. Your face. Look at your face. Well, not just your face. Like, I'll make a wisecrack. I like literally ruin it. You know what I mean? And if once a kid is named and someone says something like wise crack about the name, then you just want to kill that person. You punch me in the face. You're like, wait, making fun of my kid's name, you should die, right? But before you've had the kid, it puts little seeds of doubt. They're like, I knew a guy named that once. Oh, I hated that freaking guy, right? And like, you know people that you hate. I know some names that you will never choose. should you have kids, right? So that you don't want anyone else giving you that information either. You know what I'm saying? Whatever. whatever. Okay. Okay, here we go. Also, since I was basically messing around, there are likely flaws in my method. Here is what, here's what was done to the sirloin, okay? This is Michael from Toronto saying this, by the way. I think, yes. Salted and seared the cubes. First of all, on a long cook, you're cooking for 8 hours. A lot of the density is gonna be due to the fact that you pre-salted the cubes. If you salt those, especially something that small. The salt's going to get good penetration as you're cooking. If you're salting those things out, they're going to become dense. There's just no way around it. All right? So that's your 1st thing you need to do is not solve those dang cues beforehand, solve them afterwards. Then allowed to cool slightly before bagging with lightly cooked, salted, and sliced onions, carrots, and leeks. Okay, now listen. When you're putting, um, cooked, like mirepoix, or when you're putting mirepoix or veg in, um, in the thing with it, you want to cook it all the way through till it's
+
+[28:35] done, because 2 reasons. One, you're going to leach water out of it when you cook, if you cook it high enough. And secondly, you're never going to get any more cooking, texture wise, on those vegetables until they hit about 82 to, you know, between 82 and 85 Celsius.
+
+[28:51] right? So they're never, like, I've put carrots in a bag as a demo when I was teaching back when I used to teach this
+
+[28:57] stuff. I put carrots in a bag and let them circulate for a week and at, like, you know, in the in the high 50s or low 60s Celsius. And they're just they're still crunchy when you take them out of the bag. So they're not going to cook anymore. So you want to take your veg in a meat in meat and bag situation. You want to take them all the way to done. before you put them in the bag. Okay. Um, then did the Zippy, Ziploc, 63 C, 63
+
+[29:26] C, for 5 hours. That's another like thing right there. I would not have gone for that high temp for 5 hours because what you're doing there is you're raising, you're basically cooking all of the protein
+
+[29:38] to 60 to 63. There's no point then in, because then for another one hour, you did 56 and then 58 for 2
+
+[29:48] hours, and then in prints, you write clearly messing around with temps. Once you've cooked at 63 for 5 hours, you're never going to undo what happened there at 63. So there's no point in going back low. If you want something that tastes like a traditional, you don't want it like rare. Uh, you know, 62, 60, somewhere in there, 60 to 62 is good. Um, you know, a lot of people like their kind of short ribby stuff somewhere between 57 and 60, um, and sometimes 62. Anything over that, it's really getting into the kind of, like, you say, denser, kind of chewier ranges. So on something like sirloin, I wouldn't go that high. I would stay somewhere in the area of like 57 highest I'd go is like 60. But on a sirloin. I mean, I'm short ribby kind of a thing. People sometimes like a little higher because they like to take like it to taste a little more traditional, but and also remember when you're doing low temp, even if you were to cook it for a long, long time, it's not going to shred out like a traditional braise wheel, it'll stay intact.
+
+[30:53] Anyways, and then postseer in butter. Will it ever be a tender stew? Well, I think you're looking, a couple of the problems you're looking at is the pre-salt on it. I would omit the salt until the end for that kind of cooking. I think 63 is a little bit too high. Um, and if the meat would be tender, as soon as it's cooked through, if the sirloin you have, it means
+
+[31:13] typical. I haven't done a lot of cooking with that particular cut. But if it's going to be tender right from the get go, then just keep it, I would keep it low, like in
+
+[31:23] the, in the high 50s for a long time. And then that will do any tenderization, but won't cause it to be dense, but it'll end up being more
+
+[31:31] like, it'll be good. That's what I would do. anyway. Also, thanks for your tips about carbonation. I put together a £5 rig at home now because of you, and I can fulfill my daily seltzer quota, life-changing. Uh, and a slightly related follow-up. I added roasted turnips to my stew, uh, as I was afraid they might somehow overpower the stew with their cruciferous, you know, cruciform vegetables, uh, notes,
+
+[31:55] i.e. 40 smells. Can we just say this? farty smells. Uh, so free for your smells. If left in a bag with everything else, is that even a possibility? I don't know. You know, I've never done, I've never done turnips in the bag. You ever done turnips in the bag anymore? No, style was like, no. Mark done turnips in the bag? No. Do you like mashed? Do you like turnips? Yeah. Yeah? I bet, you know, I bet Rutabagas would go farty in a bag. I don't think turnips are going to go. I don't think so You like haggis, neeps and tatties. I haven't had it yet. You haven't had agis? Oh my god, haggis are delicious. We should just do, you know what we should do? Like, if we ever get in a situation where we have time again and we can do normal, like, cooking stuff, like for a living. I don't really, I don't get to cook so much for a living anymore. It's like my cooking now is I'm back to being a basically a private cook. Um, because, you know, I'm focusing on bar and the booker and Dax and stuff like that. We should do like just like those like kind of weird presentations. Remember we did that haggis back at the SEI? don't think I was with you. You weren't? We did. I did a haggis. I did a high-end haggis. Good, good. And a high-end scrapple. I love all those things. Anyways. So the answer there is I don't know. Is that even a possibility? Also, our low temp mushroom's good. I cook those separately as well. Well, again, as I said before, mushrooms are not going to cook at those temperatures, but mushrooms that are infused in a bag for a long period of time with
+
+[33:15] flavors and then sautéed afterwards. Delicious. done that many, many times. Okay, you want to take our break check? Yeah, right? Take a break. You want to take a quick break? Nah, all right, cool. All right. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and White, but why I didn't want to come today? So he doesn't like us anymore. Is that true, Jack? He hates us now? No, he's home listening. Okay. I like that. That's from... A few weeks ago, I wrote in to ask your advice on cooking bear. I followed your suggestions, and I'm happy to report that bear is, in fact, delicious. Well, it got to be better than the one we had, right? Remember how awful that was? Tasted like you were chewing on a nail. Tasted like iron supplements. I hate iron supplements. I've never had to take iron supplements. But I think I told you, when Dax had to take him when he was a little baby, like I ate him to see what I was feeding him and they're terrible. You ever had to iron supplements? Terrible. Anyway. Uh, We had 2 pieces, one with some ribs still attached to
+
+[34:09] it and a fair bit of fat and one that was very lean, possibly a tenderloin or whatever the er sign equivalent is.
+
+[34:14] After various lengths in the circulator, simplest turned out to be best for the tenderloin, and since the other piece was much smaller, I decided to treat it the same way. I appreciated both pieces and popped them in a circulator for about 4 to 5 hours, let them cool down a bit and gave them the final sear and sliced them up. I made a jus out of the scraps and bones, seasoned with a little soy and fish sauce, uh, and thickened with uh, 0.25% xanthan gum. Delicious. The lean piece was meaty and tender, very slightly gamey in a good way. The other piece was a bit chewy, but still very tasty. I'm hoping to get my hands on some more next year so I can experiment further. If I can get some stewing meat out of it. I can live the dream and make beer braised bear or brown
+
+[34:50] butter basted bear. Good, right? The question is how old was the bear? That's what I was told. I was told that the bear that we ate was too old by a hunter who had experienced, I guess, young bear and old
+
+[35:01] bear and said that that my problem was that we had old bear. Um, okay. And he also wanted, this is Alex from Toronto. wants to know, uh, more about, like, you know, what I think's important to pay attention to doing the
+
+[35:15] food, in the food system. I don't have time to do that now. We got to do that some other time, some other time. Okay. Cooking issues team. I love the show. been listening for a long time, I learned a ton. Recently I've started carbonating drinks. And finally I have a question to send in. I've built a CO2. This is from John by the way. Recently, I started carbonate drinks. I have a question I want to send in. I built a CO2 sank setup for carbonating, but I'm getting disappointing results. Sad. I hate disappointing carbonation. Lord knows, I hate disappointing carbonation. I've been forced. I've been forced carbonating cold water, roughly 32 Fahrenheit at about 45 to 48 psi. And when I open the seal, it foams like crazy and goes flat within a minute or two. This occurs even if I let it settle for some time. I don't have a proper attachment like the liquid bread carbonator yet. I'm using a shrader valve. Shrader valves are like the valves on like bicycle tires and car tires, right? And there's a famous old website where a guy builds carbonator caps out of Schrader valves. It's like the 1st ever like carbonate in bottle site is out there since way before anyone was thinking about anything. I can't remember the guy's site right now, but it's old and venerable as websites go. Because of this, my technique is basically gas in, disconnect, shake about 20
+
+[36:22] seconds, and repeat until water stops absorbing CO2, about 5 cycles or so. Here is the mistake you were right off the bat. Here's a mistake you're making. You need to keep the pressure on that thing while you're shaking it. Five cycles of like hit and shake is never going to be enough and you're not venting out the the regular gas before you get rid of it. What you need I mean, what you need to do is you need to get rid of all of the air in there
+
+[36:48] first. You can either do that by doing a full carbonation session, opening it, letting it spray off, or you can do it by squeezing out the bottle first,
+
+[36:56] right? That is like, 1st off, you need to get rid of the air. I don't see in your, in your, um, in your list here where you're not uh, getting the, where you're getting the air out of it. Because if you don't have, if you don't get rid of the air that's in there beforehand, and carbonate with pure CO2 in the headspace, you're always going to get massive amounts of foaming when you open it because you're going to have small amounts of gas that are inside of the inside of there and they're going to inflate form nucleation sites for CO2 because it's basically unsoluble.
+
+[37:27] And bang, you're going to get, you're going to lose all your CO2 right from the get go. Also, 45 PSI, 45 to 48 is quite high for water. So you're going to get a lot of foam out. If your water is actually at around 32. You're gonna, uh, 40 is more than sufficient PSI. You're also going to want to maybe throw an ice cube chip or 2 in so that you're not warming up as you're shaking. Just a little bit, even though it adds nucleation sites, it tends to keep
+
+[37:54] it because as you carbonate, you're going to be increasing the temperature of the water because as CO2 dissolves in, the water gets warmed.
+
+[38:02] Um, So, like, I think that's your main, that's your main thing. With the Schrader, you know, I can't, obviously, I can't see your setup, but if you, you know, I'm picturing it. I have had situations where I had to shake while I use my hands to hold valves down in place and it's possible. It sucks but it's possible to do. So what I would do is make sure you get all of the air out beforehand. Keep it cold. Whether or not your water is filtered. shouldn't make that much of it. If you can't see anything in the water. It's probably good enough from a um, from a carbonation standpoint in terms of clarity. The one thing that is true is if it's very highly mineralized. You won't it won't taste as carbonated. Okay? But anyways, squeeze the air out first. 1st thing to do. Then if you can't squeeze the air out, then do a full carbonation run and vent it, let it foam up, and then carbonate it again. Also, when you're shaking, shake while you're applying gas, because it takes a good bit of shaking while under gas pressure, not just the pressure from the headspace, but the full pressure of the tank onto it to get a good carbonation
+
+[39:07] results, and that should work. Also, if you have time, could you describe your sink pedal setup? I know you used TNS brass, but I remember hearing on an older show that you had rigged it so you could continue to use the sync normally. Did you install a latch for this or something that could bypass the pedals entirely? Okay, now here's the problem. So foot pedals, everyone should have foot pedals in their sink. It's just the truth. Um, they're awesome because why would I want to touch a faucet when, you know, or need a hand to touch a faucet? Why would you do that? And you end up wasting less water if, like, when you're washing veg, if you just hit the pedal when you want to watch the veg. The great, right? The problem is, is that there are very few sinks that are designed to use the regular top
+
+[39:43] valves and also a foot pedal valve. So what you need to do is buy a sink, buy a faucet setup, where the input to the spout, right,
+
+[39:54] comes isn't integrated with the 2 the 2 mixing valves you have up top. There's plenty of setups like this. And then what you do is you just install a T valve in between the gooseneck. And um, the uh, 2 like hot and cold water mixing valves, right? And then you also have your foot valves, foot pedal valves, and you
+
+[40:17] why those things together and put them into the input, the tea input into
+
+[40:22] your um, into your main sink. And make sure you put check valves on everything so you don't have any backflow. The best way to do this is if you buy a faucet that has a
+
+[40:32] setup for a sprayer, right? It depends on how it's on how it's laid out, but the one that I have, which is also from TNS brass, I can undo where the sprayer is and interpose a
+
+[40:44] T, you know, a plumbing tea in between where the sprayer comes out and where the valve for that particular sprayer
+
+[40:52] is. So you have to make sure that you don't have some of the ones like, um, some of the sprayers, if you press the sprayer, it automatically uh, turns off the flow to the, um, to the, to the spout. You can't use that kind. But if you have one where you can run both at the same time, you interpose a T there, which is where I've done it, and then put the input directly into that, and you're good to go. Make sense? Okay. How we doing? That's the end. All right, next time we will talk about Bryce's results using novo shape in his steeped fruit. Uh, and uh, we'll talk more about seriously? Big shout out to Ko Miles for supporting us during the fundraising drive. I love Com Miles. Com Miles. Engineer down in Houston. He's the man. He is the man. Come Miles, here's to you. Happy New Year, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[41:50] store by searching Heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This piece was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons, Surrey Farms.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Raider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:22] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on Heritage Radio
+
+[0:30] Network at Roberta's Pizzeria, where in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Yeah? Yeah? You know, Stas has been busy these days working on marketing stuff for
+
+[0:45] this, this, this, this, sears all. How's it going there, Stas? Fine. Fine? It's doing all right actually, right? Yeah. Yeah. Should be getting another shipment in, hopefully, like March, right? Yeah, March. I hope so. And hopefully, no promises because I can't promise anything because I'm not building this stuff myself. Stas and I don't have the ability to build them ourselves, which is why we can't promise dates, but hopefully in that shipment will also
+
+[1:09] come, the steak decorators, people, for those of you that we owe steak decorators too, so I'm very excited about that, um, anyways, we also are joined with our master blaster of engineering, Jack Insley.
+
+[1:22] Hello. Oh nice. You see, when you're actually running it, you can put the reverb on whenever you want. How you doing, Jack? I'm feeling a little under the weather, but I'm all right. Yeah? Is that why you need the reverb? You need the reverb, you get yourself pumped up there? I can do a lot of things with my voice on here. Did you know that? No, let's see something. I can do this. What the? Wait, do that again. Oh, man. I got some tricks left. Wait, now, so like what's interesting about that one is it's not temporally shifted. It just pit shifted. So it's not like what they used to do in like Funkadelic where they actually would just speed the track up by like one or
+
+[1:59] two. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. Oh man. Can you can you go the other way? Can you go helium? I can do it. Well, I tie. Oh my god, you can be the Yonkers raceway guy now. That's true Oh my god. We're gonna need to, okay, we're not gonna do this to you people like live while you're listening, but we're gonna come up with a choreography of craziness that we're gonna, we're gonna start, uh, you know, cooking issues. We're gonna do, like, up and down, like, oh, my God, we can do all sorts of parliament arrangements. Oh, God. We have to come up with our own kind of Pfunk style mythology. Like, you know, Stas is like vegan-faced devoid of funk. Devoid of funk. Uh, so anyway, uh, all right. So this week, what do we have anything? We have anything special going on this week. It's mellow week. Nice. Although, I am going to be asking requests for people, because over the next couple of months before the spring, I am going to be finally,
+
+[2:57] finally after like 20 years, I'm finally going to be building an outdoor kitchen.
+
+[3:02] Yeah, right. So I need some, I need, well, 1st of all, there's going to be a deep fryer out there because I put my fryer where my mouth is. You know what I'm saying? I tell other people to put an outdoor fryer and I am going to put an outdoor fryer in. But I think that might be the only gas fired thing I have out there. I'm gonna maybe put a gas assist on the fire pit, but check out what I'm gonna do. I'm going to have a, I'm going to have a, a standard fire pit, right? But I also want integrated into this big thing, a tandor. You know, Lucas, long time listener, Lucas, a museum supporter, he's building a tandor right now, and a bread oven.
+
+[3:36] Maybe, as much as I rib them, maybe kebequois style bread oven. So bread oven, you know, masonry, retained heat, masonry oven, fire pit, tandor, and here's the last one.
+
+[3:48] This is the unusual one because everyone's like, everyone builds a tandor outside. I going to put a criticula in that son of a gun. So criticula is the Roman kind of cooking platform. So what it's weird. It outdoors. It looks like a fireplace, right? So it's like looks like a mantle, like a flat thing. And underneath it is an arch shaped thing that looks like a fireplace, right? Right? So it's like, it's like imagine like a little mini Arc de Triompe with like a flat tabletop onto, without all the, you know, the ornamentation and crap, right? But here's the weird Roman thing, is that they don't build a fire in the arch and
+
+[4:21] cooking the arch. They store wood in the arch and they build the fire directly on top of the table surface and they cook on this table surface. And, um, years ago, Johnny Azini and I did a, uh, um, like a video shoot where we were imitating Roman cooking and we built one, like a
+
+[4:39] criticula, and we were cooking on top of it. And I actually really liked it. It's kind of fun because, you know, like instead of like reaching into a fire pit or reaching into an oven. It's like the fire is literally right there and you can move around it in like all the way around it and you can like shift stuff around in kind of a cool way. So I kind of liked it. So I'm going to do that because you know what? Because I can. Because I freaking can. And another thing I'm doing, we talk about before I get to the questions. Oh, by the way, should you have questions? You can always call them in too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So, I like espresso. I love espresso, espresso. Do you like espresso styles or, but do you drink it straight? No, you drink like lattes or you drink like macchiato? What do you drink? drink from the Mr. Coffee? No, no, espresso. You said espresso. When you're going to have an espresso beverage. But do you like straight espresso? Okay. So anyway, I don't really like, it's not that I don't like it. I'm not I don't go out of my way for like super drip or like, you know,
+
+[5:42] pour overs or pour over sounds like home over to me. I know it's like super popular now. We had a good one at that Japanese style coffee place. Stas gave a because it just took forever. took for freaking ever, but I'm fine with that. You know, I enjoy all this stuff and I enjoy. But really, my heart's an espresso. But I haven't had a chance to update my espresso game in many, many years because I had a spending kibosh dropped on me, you know,
+
+[6:05] because I already had a fairly decent setup. So now I'm also, and you guys will regale you with the stories, when it happens, I'm updating my espresso rig. Now, the trick with espresso. The mistake that people make, right? Espresso, and I've said this a 1000000000 times, is all about control and
+
+[6:22] repeatability of fairly small range of variables, but it turns out it's more difficult than you'd think to control them all very well.
+
+[6:29] Um, So I updated my uh, my roasting setup, because you know how I roast coffee styles? You know, I'm trying to save money now. So I went back to roasting my own coffee. And I use what's called a whirly pop. So, you know, you know, the popcorn maker that you put on the stove and you twist it and it goes, and it pops and it's this aluminum whirlipop
+
+[6:48] thing? So a lot of people, I used to pop with air popcorn poppers. I had dedicated air roasters and I burnt out every single one that I ever had. Every single one I burnt out. The whirly pop. It don't ever burn out. It just doesn't burn out. You know what I mean? they've superseded that, you know, you know, with home roasters now. They have home roasters now that almost act like mini drum machines. awesome, but I can't afford them. Whirly pop is like 15 bucks. Right? But you know what I hate about the whirly pop? The whirly pop. You have to crank it all the time. So like, let's say all of a sudden, your nose starts to run. Can you go get a Kleenex? No, no, because you have to turn it all the time. Because if you don't turn it all the time. It's gonna burn. If something else happens, if the phone rings, can you answer the phone? No, no, you can't, because if you do, it'll burn. Can you make a cup of coffee while you're doing it? No. Like, can you take the last stuff that you had while you're roasting a new stuff and make, no, right? Which sucks. It's terrible. And and it's like 10 or 12 minutes of time when you can sit there and do nothing
+
+[7:47] else. And then another couple of minutes cooling it down afterwards, like putting the beans back and forth after you roast them. So, I took, you know, Stas and I have an ultimaker for Booker and Dax for prototyping. So I probably I went off the reservation. I mean, I didn't really use it for work in this application, but I printed out a little
+
+[8:02] housing, chopped off the end of the whirly pop thing, left a little bit of the handle that you crank on it. It chopped off enough so I could get a straight piece, you know, because the handle's bent, if you could picture it in your head, chopped it off. And then I put a little like 12 volt DC motor I got on Amazon for like 6 bucks and put it on there, printed
+
+[8:20] like a case that fit around and held it onto the handle so it wouldn't spin. Now that's suckers electric. Oh, yeah. So now like for like 8 bucks or something. I have an electric whirly pop, and now I can, you know, listen, never roast, never roast coffee on a stove and leave it unattended. I'm not saying you do that, but I can now blow my nose, make a cup of coffee, move around,
+
+[8:42] like get a drink of water while I'm doing it. It's just so much more civilized. I can't believe it took me years to do this, but it's all because, you know how,
+
+[8:49] you know how, you don't do anything for a long time you stay in stasis, right? And then all of a sudden, you get a kick in the butt and you just do everything all at once. Well, it's like that with the coffee. So because I'm getting this new place, I need a new coffee grinder, right? Now, the coffee grinder I have is called the Ranchillio Rocky, and it's like, at the time, it was, you know, I couldn't believe I was spending that kind of money on a
+
+[9:11] grinder. It was like 300 bucks or 3 some 50 or something. And it was the highest kind of level grinder that any home jockey was getting because this was like 12 years
+
+[9:18] ago, 10, 12 years ago, something like this. Uh, like 12 maybe. And, um, maybe more. Jeez. Hmm, I might have gotten it before Booker was born. I don't remember. Anyways, it was kind of like it, you know? But now people are getting much kind of higher level grinders, but no one
+
+[9:35] is, well, that's not true. There's plenty of rich people out there, but not very many people now are buying the highest level of
+
+[9:41] grinder, like the Titan series are called grinders, like the very large ones with the very large birds in them. And it turns out they make just, you know, everyone who uses them says they make superior espresso. They're huge and they're expensive, like 1000s of dollars, right? So am I going to buy that? No, I'm not going to buy that one. Am I crazy? But, you know, everyone spends all their money on the espresso machine, but not on the grinder, which is a huge, huge
+
+[10:08] error, because the world's greatest espresso machine with a crappy grinder, you're very limited in what you're
+
+[10:13] going to produce in terms of quality espresso. So it turns out that there is this lunatic company called
+
+[10:19] orphan espresso out of Idaho, right? And it's a husband wife team. I think their husband and wife. And they just make these crazy grinders that have really high quality
+
+[10:32] burr sets in hand grinders. So they make, unfortunately, it's always out of stock because they don't really give a crap. It's called the pharaohs, and I can't get one right now because they're out of stock, and what happens is, is that they get the parts in for like 40 or 50 of them.
+
+[10:47] They put it on and they sell out like, like this, and then when they're gone, it's like, and they never tell you it's going to happen. And people, I understand that because you know what? They probably hate doing customer service. I with them. You know what I'm saying? So I'm not blaming them. It's just, I wish I could get one, you know? So they have a grinder set. First of all, this grinder called the Pharaos, the orphan espresso Feros. It's only $245, which seems like, oh, that's a lot, but I can't buy just the burrs because I looked into DIYing one. I can't buy the burrs for less than like 150. So I don't know how they're building the whole grinder for $245 because they're building a
+
+[11:22] grinder that has the same bur set in it. It's called the coney as the name of the grinder, Mazricone. And it's like, uh, I think it's like a $4000 grinder or something like this. And for $245, you can get that same grind quality. It just put a little elbow grease into it. I got their next down in line one because that one's always in stock called the Lido 2, and I have to say, my espresso quality has jumped up. I might have to get one for my home rig. Anyway, later I'll talk about, because I'm finally going to pimp out the Ranchilio Sylvia, which is, you know, the kind of, it's kind of the 39 mark of espresso machines in that everybody, you know, everyone kind of tricks out the
+
+[11:59] Sylvia because it's really easy to trick out. So everyone's done PID, which is, you know, the temperature control loops. And people have done everything to it. So I'm never, I'm not going to be treading on any new water in it, but I'll go through the kind of modifications that I've done through
+
+[12:12] the Sylvia and I'll report back as it happens, but that's probably going to take a couple of months because I'm only going to be doing it in drips and drabs here and there.
+
+[12:17] Anyway, so that's my coffee report and my other report. We get onto some Quest Echiones. Yeah. Okay. Stephen Hoppy, he says last name pronounced hop E, if you care to know, which I do. I like that. Hoppy. But like, like, with a capital E, which I also like, like, because when it's, if it's
+
+[12:38] HOP dash E, that the capital E means it's pronounced E, like E-E, right? Hoppy anyway. Uh, from Chicago, uh, writes in about centrifuges. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and anyone else who might be present, no one only got the hardcores, hardcores. Uh, I'm hoping to purchase a centerfuge. that I hope to use in a bar. I'm in the process of developing and found what looks to be a decent one for sale at a good price. It's, for those of you that know, it's a made by Fisher and it's, you know, there's Fisher is really a
+
+[13:08] catalog. They don't really make anything. Um, I think that's my impression of them, but, um, it's about a 1000 bucks,
+
+[13:15] which for a 3 liter centrifuge is pretty good. Anyway, so here's the question. There are a couple of things about this model that give me pause. For one, as you can see, if you follow the link, you can't, because you're on the radio, and I'm not going to give you guys the link, because if I give you the link, then maybe someone else would buy it out from
+
+[13:29] underneath, Stephen, and that would not be fair. Would that be fair? Would not be fair. It only does 3000 times the force of gravity, and I know that you use a centrifuge that gets to 4000. On top of that, this model is not refrigerated. I think that the lower G force will just mean the product will take more time to form a puck, but I don't know how much longer and if this will be a problem. If purchased, this will be used in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Never been. ever been? I'd like to go. Would you like to go? Someone I know was just in Puerto Rico. Piper. I didn't know he was in Puerto Rico. When was he in Puerto Rico? When he worked with us. No, I mean, I know someone who just, like, literally just got back from Puerto Rico. Um, someone in Booker and Dex, maybe? Anyway. And I have a slight concern about the product heating up too much in Puerto
+
+[14:10] Rico. I get you. If it's going to take much longer for a puck formation in a hot, humid environment. Does this seem like too large a caveat to make the purchase? Thanks for the help and for everything else you do, listening to cooking issues has inspired and emboldened me to give up cabinetry and take on bar management. cabinet. I think cabinetry is a great profession. I mean, I'm not saying you should go back to it, but a lot of honor in doing good woodwork. You know what I mean? I like good woodwork. Cheers, Stephen from Chicago, although I guess in the future, shortly, you know, will be in San Juan. So here are my thoughts. So for those of you out there that don't have the link, this is a spinning bucket
+
+[14:46] centrifuge, remember, centrifuge is separating products based on density. It spins around really quickly, and the denser stuff goes to the outside of the spinning
+
+[14:56] rotor, and the lighter stuff gets pushed up to the inner side of the spinning rotor where the forces of gravity, well, the centripetal force is less, right? Now, here's what you need to know. First of all, on refrigeration. The spinning from the rotor does generate a significant amount of heat. So if you're going to be spinning, things get pretty warm. Now, that said, I know plenty of people like Wiley Dufrayne, his centrifuge is not refrigerated, and he's had good luck with it, but you do need to do a couple of things. You need to chill your buckets down beforehand. So sometimes I would put ice water in them when I used a non-refrigerator, centrifuge, um, and just get everything coal beforehand. You can store a little. don't ever put anything into the um, into the cabinet while it's spinning because it can get kicked up and
+
+[15:42] it's a nightmare. Don't ever do that. But you can put, um, you can put ice into
+
+[15:47] the uh, like bags of ice into the centrifuge cabinet while it's not spinning to get it nice and cold
+
+[15:53] beforehand, and that can help a little bit. So if you buckets start cold and your centerfuge starts cold, you might not need to do all of those things, you have a good chance of having the stuff not get too hot. But I'll just give you an idea when something spins for like 15 or 20 minutes without a refrigerator and it starts, everything starts out at room temperature, you can get, you know, up above slightly above body temp,
+
+[16:17] um, you know, up into like yeast proofing temperatures when you um, spin. So the temperature rise is appreciable and the longer it stays in, obviously, the higher the temperature is going to go. So that's, you know, what you're dealing with if you if you're talking about, um, uh, talking about not having a refrigerator. It's not insurmountable. It's not something that, you know, I would, if I could choose refrigeration. Would I have it? Yeah. You know, would I not buy a centrifuge because it didn't have a fridge? No, and the advantage of not having a fridge is the centrifuges with fridges are a lot heavier. They cost more, and they're a lot bigger. They take up a lot more space and they take more power. So these are, you know, 3 things that aren't necessary and they throw more heat off into your kitchen because remember, uh, any refrigerator in your kitchen's throwing off heat. That's how it's making things cold on the inside. Okay. So that's that. And if you're a real DIY mater, I'm not going to recommend that you modify center for what that
+
+[17:13] one, crazy? What am I? What am I crazy nuts? Dave said I could modify the centerfusion. It blew up and killed everyone in my restaurant, you know? See, now that I deal with these corporate weasels all the time. Like I have to think like a corporate weasel sometimes, which is kind of depressing. Stas is like, who are you? I don't even know you anymore. I can't believe you moderated. something you were going to say based on corporate weasel think. Yeah. Well, you know, we all get worse as we get older, I think. You know, we're not like fine wines as it happens. So the other question is about the G-forces involved. Okay, here's the thing. On a spinning bucket centrifuge, um, I find that you need a higher G-force than you do in a fixed angle rotor. So a fixed angle rotor is one where you have tubes or vials or whatever, and they're kept at a fixed angle, right? Duh, fixed angle rotor. And what happens is at that fixed angle, particles that are, um, that are
+
+[18:12] getting uh, spun out of uh, the solution there, not not in solution, but getting uh, desuspended, let's say, and turn into a puck. They hit that side wall of the fixed angle rotor, and then they scour themselves down that angle and compact into a nice
+
+[18:26] pellet. Right? So fixed angle rotors can form a nice pellet at fairly low G forces. Whereas a spinning butt, and there's typically less distance that the particles have to travel before they hit that
+
+[18:40] wall. So it spins out faster. Spinning bucket rotors, they can separate fairly quickly, but they don't compact as hard when they're hitting because
+
+[18:50] they're basically just settling onto a flat thing and then they have to push. There's no kind of scouring action down into it. So when a spinning bucket rotor slows down, which is when the problems happen, they tend to kick stuff back up into the
+
+[19:02] product and they tend to cloud. So back when, you know, when my centrifuges are running closer to 3000
+
+[19:09] Gs, like when the bearings are getting shot, things tend to be a little cloudier.
+
+[19:13] Is it still going to work? Yes, can you still carbonate with it? Yes. Does it make me super happy? Do I wake up with a big smile on my face thinking about a centrifuge that can only run a 3000 G's? No. You know what I mean? But that said, you know, it's definitely going to be worthwhile. Um, and certain things are going to clarify a 3000 G's, no problem. Like Banana Justino, which is a clarification monster. But other things that are on the verge of not clarifying or that have very fine sediment that tends to kick up, you might have some problems and spinning longer might solve them or it might not. But, you know, it seems like it's a fairly small centrifuge, it's, you know, might be worth the money if you can get it for
+
+[19:47] $1000. The ones that I used to get for really cheap, the
+
+[19:52] joans don't seem to be as available as they as they used to be. But here's the other thing I'm going to recommend. If you're going to buy a used centrifuge for a bar program, uh, don't count on it to survive. You must get a backup unit, okay? You must get a backup unit or you must train your bar staff to be able to do alternate techniques like
+
+[20:14] Agar clarification. But agar clarification is not going to work if you're doing things like Justino. So, you know, a new centrifuge, is it going to break? Probably not. It's 8 grand, right? That's just, that's just facts. But, uh, a use centrifuge. Don't think you can get away with a $1000 one use centrifuge because that sucker will break.
+
+[20:35] I'm telling you from experience it will break. And the odds that someone at the bar, if you're not there,
+
+[20:42] is able to fix it themselves is low for 2 reasons. Not that many people are trained in fixing centrifuges or have the kind of kind of mechanical, I'm just going to freaking do this thing and fix it. And even if they did, what are the odds that someone who's working for you feels comfortable ripping apart your
+
+[21:01] centrifuge because what if they mess it up? You know what I'm saying? So it's very hard to get someone at the bar to be able to do something like fix a centrifuge for you. So if you're not willing to fix it or you're not able to get there instantly to fix it, if it goes
+
+[21:14] down, or if you don't have some sort of, you know, way that you don't need those menu items on a regular basis, then get
+
+[21:19] a backup. Yeah? Did you fix it yesterday? Yes. See, I have to say. We had one that was broken yesterday. The brushes, it was the brushes that went bad, and I might need to replace it again, but I was able to get it to run, no problem.
+
+[21:31] Look, it's the kind of thing. It's like, you know, I know that Stas and I said that we weren't going to be, you know, you know, duct tape and bubble gum. I did the brushes last time. was like balancing on 2 things and you had it like it was underneath. It's still like that. Yeah. Well, this is like on, yeah, on a sheet tray. that didn't fit on. Right. Yeah, this one, it's like, I mean, look, if you guys knew
+
+[21:54] the kind of like real dumb way that we have to do things 9 times
+
+[21:59] out of times. The funniest thing ever happened, I forget who it was, somebody once like said that they accuse us of like having all this like awesome equipment and like
+
+[22:09] like cushy everything. And while that thing came in, I think I was literally lifting a centrifuge by
+
+[22:15] myself, like, up to a place over my head so I could go underneath it and work on the motor. Remember that day? Oh my god. anyway. You know, again, like, we're not as duct tape as we were before, though, right? Styles were getting a little better. Yeah, but whatever. It's like, it's like, uh, it's like Jack. You know how we've had this conversation a 1000000000 times, but it's always worth having again. You know how in a band you keep on saying that someday someone else is going to move your equipment for you? Yeah. Is that ever happen? Yes. Hey, you have other people moving your equipment now? No. I mean, not fully, but sometimes in some gigs, you know. Really? Yeah. Man, I was always, I was like, I'm going to get to the point in my life where someone's going to carry my base rig around. No, you won't. No, you won't. You know, and it's the same thing with our crap. Same thing with the cooking crap. You never get there. All right. Brian Haggerty writes in from Minneapolis. And by the way, he says at the end that we were wondering about it once that the abbreviation for Minneapolis, MPLS. Did you know that? Really? Yeah. Mipples. See, it doesn't make sense. I don't I don't get Minneapolis. NYC, you get. NYC, you get New York City, but many... Wait, MNPS? No, M-P-L-S. N-P-L-S. M like Minnesota or Minneapolis. P, like, political science, L, like, latrine, S, like, sandwich. Mipples. But, like, the thing is, is like, like, I don't know, like, MIPS
+
+[23:50] or MIPS. I't know, like mini nipples? There's no end. To me, Minneapolis is about the ends, right? Minneapolis. Min. This is just nipples. How about an MMP? MNP, or MNPS, Memphis, Memphis. I don't know. I don't know, dude. How about just Minneapolis? I'm looking at the word Minneapolis next to nipples, and I'm not... I'm not feeling it. You feeling it? No, it's just not, no. No, no. No, right? No, no, no, no, no. At 1st I thought it was like some sort of contraction of like Minneapolis, St. Paul, like a kind of twin city thing, but it's not. It's literally just Minneapolis. Crap on those St. Paul people. not even in there. You know what I mean? Whatever. nipples I kind of now I kind of like it. Now I have in my uh, in my head, um, you know, like at the beginning of a lot of rap songs, I'll be like, nipples, nipples, nipples,
+
+[24:45] nipples. You know what I mean? Like public enemy used to do that all, but they wouldn't say nipples. They'd be like, uh, uh, what's that song? Come, the drums. It's off, I'll look it up. anyway. But that's what I have it going through my head. I have someone like mipping, mipping, mip. Oh I know, it's that, never mind. not going to get into it. It's off of, uh, uh, 91, the, uh, the, what is it? The 91, the enemy Strikes Black or the Empire Strikes Black? Remember that album, Jack? Anyway, Brian Haggerty writes in, regarding Chia. I recently discovered your show and I'm loving it. I'm wondering if you had any. well thank you. I'm wondering if you had any thoughts about the usefulness of chia seeds. Can you do the Chia song for me? No. Come on. Jack, can you do the cheese song? Am I going to have to do it? I want to do it. have to do it. Okay, did you used to do those things when you were a kid? Yeah? You know what? most recently I had a new old stock. This is maybe 10 years ago. Mr. T Chi ahead. It's awesome. His mohawk is perfect because it's got the ridges in it to hold the chia seeds. Did you do chia pets when you were a kid, Jack? Why not? What hell's wrong with you? You don't like cheap pets? So, is he like a classic chia pet? Or do you like some weird chia pets? No, classic. I had the classic. Not like some sort of Homer Simpson growing hair thing. Classic. I imagine that seems like a very California thing. They have chia seeds in disgusting stuff now. like in juices. That's what we're about to talk about. Do you prefer basil seeds? I had my 1st one 2 days ago and I thought it was disgusting, the texture. Have you had it? It's like mucilage. Gross. In a beverage. People like it I thought it was going to be like, because it was raspberry flavor that it would be, I like raspberry seeds, you know, so I could like crunch. Yeah, the raspberry seeds, and we're about to talk about this, or very different from chia seeds. I know. didn't know that. Yeah, hugely different. Gross. Gross. Gross. What are your actual thoughts? Gross, gross. Are you going to have a new face just for chia seeds? Still sitting in my fridge. Still sitting in your fridge? You couldn't convince anyone to drink that? No. No. How, like, how Xanthan looking is it? Not very Xanthan looking, but the texture is very. Yeah, very Xantan. So we'll get into it. So anyway, I recently, uh, okay, blah, blah, blah. As you know, okay. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the usefulness of chia seeds, backing up so people know because obviously I went off on a tangent because I cannot help myself. As I'm sure you know, they absorb a ton of water and form a weird gel.
+
+[27:18] When you say that's accurate stuff, Weird gel. She's got her weird gel face on her chia gel face. Her trying to keep it down in her mind, face, on. Various vegan folks suggest, I like that various vegan folks. It's got a good ring to it. You have good alliterative pros, Brian. Various vegan folks suggest using a slurry of ground seeds, ground chia
+
+[27:42] seeds, and water, one tablespoon of ground seeds to 3 tablespoons water in place of an egg. Yeah? Okay. I have used chia seeds in turkey meatloaf to good effect. America's Test Kitchen has a turkey burger recipe that calls for gelatin to offset the dryness of the turkey.
+
+[28:00] Or you could just not overcook the freaking turkey America's Test Kitchen. This is why turkey burgers suck so hard. They always are over freaking cooked. Why do people do this? It's like salmon burgers. Like someone throws you a salmon burger and they overcook the piss out of it because if
+
+[28:15] they salmon burgers, Like, theoretically, a salmon burger is a good idea, right? Except for they always make it too far in advance. The sucker oxidize as you get that oxidized salmon flavor and it's overcooked into a dry puck and they do the same thing with the turkey burgers. And when they order the turkey burger out. I'm like, don't order the turkey burger. Don't do it. You know what I mean? Anyways. But you can make a good turkey burger without using chia seeds or gelatin.
+
+[28:44] If you just take care, whatever. not going to get into that. Were not talking about that right now. Okay. I have used back to the question. I have used chia seeds and turkey meatloaf to good effect. America's Test Kitchen has a turkey burger recipe that calls for gelatin to offset the dryness
+
+[28:58] of the turkey. So I figured I'd use chia slurry. How do you like that word? Chias leri. Instead of gelatin. I also mixed in ground dry chia seeds on the theory that as the meat cooked and released its juices,
+
+[29:12] those juices might be captured by the chia seeds and thus be retained in the loaf. I don't know if this mechanism, this mechanism functioned, but I do know the finished product was juicy and delicious. Awesome. Awesome. That's good. Uh, I used chia seeds in crepe batter in place of eggs to weird effect. The seeds thickened the batter like crazy, so I added a ton of water plus some oil to thin it down, and it cooked up strangely with lots of holes that developed as the water evaporated.
+
+[29:41] The taste was not bad, but it wasn't much like a crepe. Yeah. So, remember, you know, you don't want a lot of, like, you know, big, like,
+
+[29:48] injira style bubbles in a crepe, and, uh, this kind of xanthani effect is going to have a different water hole. So you should think of chia like a Xanthan because it forms a mucilaginous slime. And literally, like, technically, they're like, it forms a mucilaginous slime, much like
+
+[30:06] Xanthan does. So you're gonna get, you know how like, you remember when we used to foam Xanthan foams for demo styles, you get those big holes in them because of the way it holds. I don't know if it technically forms. Um, I don't know if the gel because of what I was reading, uh, has what's called a yield point, which I'll get to in a minute. But, um, so things like Xanthan have a yield point. So they actually act like a solid, you know, a gel up to a particular amount of force being applied, and then they shear thin rapidly. I know that Chia from the research I was doing is rapidly sheer thinning, but I don't know kind of how much of a yield point it has. Anyway, yield point is really good for things like eggs. So I'm imagining it does have a yield point because that's why Xanthan is so good at replacing eggs because it's not a protein, but it has a yield
+
+[30:49] point so it can hold things pretty well. Anyways. So the taste was not bad, but it wasn't much like a crepe. Anyway, modernist cuisine, modernist cooking uses all kinds of weird gelling agents, but I haven't seen very much about chia gel in the modernist cooking related stuff I've read so far. For instance, science fair, which is like Naveen and Kevin and those guys. No, the Harvard or ex-Harvard guys, because they're not at Harvard anymore, right? They're gone. They have a long list of hydrocolid and hydrocolid enablers, but chia seeds not on the list. I'm interested in your thoughts. Brian Haggerty. Okay, so, you know, look, the interesting thing is, oh, by the way, before I get started, just take a look at this. Um, document. It's open source so you can get it on the internet, the International Journal of Food
+
+[31:34] Science, volume, uh, 2014, uh, article 241, 053. It's called Chemical and Functional Properties of Chia Seed, Salvia Hispanica, Gum, by Myra, Ruby,
+
+[31:49] Segura Campos, at all. It's available online. It's a good read. And interestingly, you know, what they said that I found interesting is that it was used in Aztec ceremonies,
+
+[32:00] chia seeds for a long time. And their argument, I haven't researched the history of it enough, is that it's literally because it had religious significance, that when the conquistadors came in and wiped out all traces of religious
+
+[32:14] ceremony, that Chia was kind of expunged. And that's why it wasn't used very much in that kind of stuff for a long time, even though it remained a traditional food stuff. But that she accedes was an incredibly important food stuff. Like in the words of the article, less than corn, less important than corn, but more important than
+
+[32:33] amaranth. Interesting. So, all hydrocolloids, almost all hydrocolloids are natural things that are extracted either from, um, fermentation like xanthan or
+
+[32:47] gelan, so, you know, a bacteria or a fungus is making a slime and
+
+[32:51] uh, that slime is then, you know, purified and turned into a gum. Um, or from things like seeds. Um, so guar, seed, um, you know, locust bean, seed. So, you know, that's how we come up with hydrocolids. But the interesting thing is there are a lot of seeds out there that have hydrocolloid properties in them that have just never been really research from industrial
+
+[33:16] standpoints. Sometimes it's because there's not enough production out there, and sometimes it's just an oversight. And so this article is saying that they believe that chia seeds do have the ability to have some
+
+[33:26] commercialization, in terms of their use, because they can be grown in places where other things aren't necessarily going to grow very well,
+
+[33:33] and they have some interesting properties. So what are those properties? Chia seed forms a slimy gel at very low concentrations, as Nastasia knows from her raspberry drink. But also what's interesting about chia seeds is chia seeds were an important dietary
+
+[33:49] item because they're very high in oil. So it's a very, like they're 39% oil, very high oil percentage. And if you soak the chia seeds, or grind them and you get this mucilaginous sludge. This mucilaginous sludge is mainly formed by a polysaccharide, as all
+
+[34:05] hydrocolloids are, but it also has a large protein component in it, the way that gum Arabic does, and a very high oil component in it.
+
+[34:13] And that combination, that kind of triple threat of oil
+
+[34:18] and, you know, oil and polysaccharide and protein means that it not only can hold and absorb water, but it can hold and absorb oil, and they think because of the protein also can
+
+[34:30] emulsify. So you can use it as an emulsifier, hence it's a good, maybe good replacer for something like eggs. I haven't experimented with this. This is all just this article, but I'm pretty interesting interested in it. Unfortunately, to get the pure hydrocoloid, and by the way, the yield of this gum is fairly high,
+
+[34:48] like on the order of 10, 11% by weight of the chia seed, right? So like a good bit of it is functional. Then the rest of it you have to deal with is the seed and all that other stuff. Most of the, they think that most of these properties are concentrated in the outer coat, you know, near the edge of the seat. Anyways. Unfortunately, to produce it the way they produced it in the article, you have to soak the seeds, blend them, then, you know, then you have to like heat it at 50
+
+[35:12] C, and then you have to spin it at 10,000 times the force of gravity for like 3 or 4 hours to get
+
+[35:17] the, you know, separate the seeds out from the gum, and then you can dry it and have the gum.
+
+[35:22] So, you know, interesting, but I've never, I've never used it, but it is very interesting. Maybe, uh, because they suggest maybe making mayonnaises with it or anything that needs emulsifying or oil holding, but you don't want to
+
+[35:32] use, um, things like eggs. Anyway. Uh, so we got a quick uh, quick 2 questions in. Jared writes in about ISIs. With respect to flavor extraction into alcohol and oil. How do chamber vacuums and uh, EC uh, whippers, ISIEC, whippers differ. And if you can start with only one, which is preferred, or is there a better option than either of them, especially for long-term shelf life of the
+
+[35:59] flavor? This alcohol percentage or oil type matter, what else should be considered? Thanks very much. Okay. I'm not I'm not going to push my book except for I go into like excruciating detail in the book on this kind of
+
+[36:12] stuff. And so I'm like, I'm not going to be able to go as in depth here. I will say this. Yes, alcohol percentage matters. Uh, I mean, higher or lower alcohol isn't necessarily better or worse, but higher alcohol is going to extract things quicker, right? So it all depends on what kind of a flavor. It's like anything else. There's no better. There is no good guys. There is no bad guys. Just you and me, Stas, and we just disagree. You know what I mean? Yeah, that she likes that song. She's bop into that one. We all know that's a good tune. anyway. Oil type. I don't think it's going to matter as much except for, I guess, obviously if something's a solid fat or liquid fat. So maybe it does matter. I don't have as much experience with that. I usually use neutrals or oil whose flavor I particularly like, something like olive oil. With respect to vacuum machine versus EC. Um, the fundamental, the fundamental point is this. The EC is a lot more flexible. It has a lot more power to do infusions because the pressure differentials are a lot wider. Uh, and, you know, you can do things like heat it in the in the EC. You can, you know, put a much higher pressure differential. It's easier to deal with. That said, um, if you can deal with the lower pressure differentials that you're working on in a vacuum machine, which is only like 15 PSI, the advantage that a vacuum machine
+
+[37:29] has is you can do a huge quantity at once, like, you know, depends on the size of your vacuum machine, but I've
+
+[37:35] done, like, gallons at once, uh, that's, you know, 4 liters in units of 4 liters for eumetric
+
+[37:41] types. And, you know, so it can do that kind of a thing. And to be able to do that with pressure, you would move away from an EC and you would get a 5 gallon Cornelius
+
+[37:51] keg and you'd hook it up to a nitrous tank or in a pinch of CO2 tank if you had time to let it vent
+
+[37:57] off. And you could do it that way. But, um, if you could do it in an EC and you could afford the chargers, then I'd say it's a superior technique to using a vacuum.
+
+[38:08] But, and it's a lot easier to experiment with the EC, um, because the unit quantities are much smaller. So anyway, that's my feelings on it. But, you know, again, in the book, I wrote so many. I can't even, like, I can't even think about it anymore because of all the words I wrote in that freaking book.
+
+[38:25] Stas won't even look at the book. As you all know, she uses it as kind of a McDLT hot food separator. Like that's, she can't, doesn't want to open it. I think she might have it taped shut so that she never has to see anything on the inside of it. And but she says it's just thick enough to make sure that you never get the hot side mixing with the cold
+
+[38:43] side. So it's, you know, at least it's pretty flat, right? It doesn't bend too much. So, you know, I've done a good job right there. That's all I can hope for. Last in. Alvin Schultz, our good friend Alvin Schultz, writes in about eggnog. Hi Dave, Hammer, Jack, Indie Jesus, Santa's Hipster, and Friends. I've been inspired by Booker and Daxes, Nick Bennett, and haven't we all been inspired by Nick Bennett to make some aged eggnog for next year and years to come. Bennett just did a tasting recently of like three-year-old eggnog or something like this. I recently had a one-year-old eggnog from Hail Pale in PDX. It was delicious and I didn't die. Good news. I'm glad you're not dead, Oven. Dave, what's your thoughts on the safety of the 2 recipes listed below, particularly
+
+[39:22] are my final ABV calculations correct, and should the mix be sterile and safe to drink after a year,
+
+[39:27] plus if it's sealed in mason jars, not canned or cooked, and stored, and wrapped in foil at room temp. I wouldn't keep him in room temp. keep it in the fridge. I keep it in the fridge. Wouldn't you cut stars? Why do they have to be room temp, Alvin? I don't know about room temp. Because all those studies, I think, were in fridge. Although I have to ask Bennett how he stored it. I don't know. I didn't read that when I was reading it. And also, Alvin, your your ABVs didn't come in. Um, but Nick said he shook his a couple of times a month to keep it homogenized. I also plan on shaking it every so often. If it matters, I'll be using farm eggs unpasteurized. I don't think it matters. The whole point is, if it's safe, it's safe no matter what kind of an egg you used. The guys at Rockefeller University who famously did the study, I think, in 2008. I think it was 2008, of the eggnogs that they have been making for 65 years based on a recipe that was handed down to them from someone who was born in like 1890 and she got it from
+
+[40:14] her, like grandma or something like that. That recipe. Um, you know, that recipe they tested by inoculating the eggs and the whole batch with salmonella and seeing if it killed it.
+
+[40:25] So the whole point is, is that if it's safe, it's going to be safe no matter what kind of an egg you use. So anyway, if it matters, I'll be using farm eggs and high quality dairy products from a local creamery. I'm also at high risk. I'm not at high risk for illness, illness, and or pregnancy. And the 2 recipes of a mixing are Michael Rubens and George Washington's. Yeah, the George Washington. Washington's recipe emits number of eggs used, so I calculated what Roman's yolk ratio was and inserted into Washington's booze dairy mix. All right. So I couldn't look at your calculations. They't come through on the email album, but what I would look up is Dr. Rebecca Lancefield's eggnog recipe. That's the one that was tested by Rockefeller University. That recipe is a dozen eggs, whole eggs, not yolks, whole eggs. A quart of heavy cream, one quart light cream, one pint bourbon, one quart rum, nutmeg, and a half
+
+[41:11] pound to 3 quarter of a pound of sugar. So what you're looking at here, sugar is going to reduce the water activity and make it a little bit safer. And the eggs water activity is what it is. But in terms of the other things, you're looking at a quart of heavy cream and a quart of light cream, which has a lot of fat in it.
+
+[41:26] So there's actually like, you know, a good deal of not water in that too. But you're looking at, for that ratio, a pint of bourbon, and a quart of rum. Okay? So a quart and a half of liquid for that level. George Washington's recipe is one quart of cream, one quart of milk, but who the hell knows what that
+
+[41:42] means because that's like 1700s, who the hell knows? You know what I mean? It wasn't getting it from a store. One dozen tablespoons sugar, which is like, what is that? A dozen tablespoons. It's like not quite a cup. What is that? Well, it's 8 tablespoons in a stick of butter and that's a half cup, right? So not quite a cup. Anyway, one pint, here's where we get the important part. One part, one pint brandy, one half pint, rye whiskey, one half pint Jamaica rum. So now we're at pint, half pint, half pint, full pint, quart,
+
+[42:15] uh, and one quarter pint sherry. Then you mix that and you separate the yolks and the whites, which is interesting, and you beat in the yolks and then whip the egg whites up and fold them in.
+
+[42:25] So you're looking at Washington's recipe is a little less alcoholic than the other one. And he also only lets it sit for a couple of days tasting frequently. So, I mean, I don't know whether Washington's recipe, as written, is safe. It's clearly a little less alcoholic than Dr. Rebecca Lansfield's eggnog, which is guaranteed safe because they ran a challenge test on it. But it's not that much less alcoholic. So you might, yeah, I mean, might be safe. I don't know. Uh, and then Roman's, 12 egg yolks, 2 cups granulated sugar, a liter of bourbon, only 4 cups
+
+[42:56] milk, and one cup heavy cream, and +3 quarters a cup of cognac, and a half cup of Myers, dark
+
+[43:01] rum, and a pinch of salt. A, that sucks. higher in alcohol content than the other one. So I'm going to go ahead and say that Roman's recipe is 100% guarantee. Obviously, Lancefield's recipe is a guarantee because they tested that sucker and George Washington. I can't vouch for it, but probably if you let sit around long enough, it, you know, it's going to be safe, but I'm not going to guarantee
+
+[43:23] it. But good old George Washington. He didn't die Well, he did, but not on that. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[43:40] store by searching heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit to donate and become a member. Visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by White Oak Pastures, a 5 generation Georgia-based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit whiteoakpastures.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage radio network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria, where in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Hello. Hey. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. We got Jack, and I got, we got, why are the lights over there in the engineering booth? How you gentlefolk doing? I'm going to speak for both of us. We're great. You're like, I'm not going to let Wyatt talk because what if he's not doing well, then what? Then what? How about you, Stas? I'm okay. Yeah? You got good stuff going on? No. So I was like, the best I could hope for us and not have crap going on. Good stuff is like, you know, way too far. So apparently tomorrow, vice, the vice, the network slash. Never heard of it. Never, never heard of that. You've heard of Vice the actual, you know, like sin, right? Yeah, that I've heard of. And you've heard of the of the Black Crow song Virtue advice, right? Bad I've heard of, too? Yeah. They have this they have this network. It's based on that on that principle. And they have a show called The Munchies. And apparently they're gonna air the foie gras thing that I worked on with them a number of months ago based on the California ban on foie gras, but that's not what I wanted to talk about. What I want to talk about was I had to go do like some last minute voiceovers last week at their offices in Brooklyn. They're over in Williamsburg, Jack, by the way. Greenpoint, I think, no? Uh, no, I mean, it's still Williamsburg. It's like the border. Williams Point. Anyway. Yeah, I biked over there, and for the 1st time in like 5 years, my pant leg came
+
+[2:09] untucked from my sock without me knowing, and it just ripped the bottom half of my pants off. It was awesome. I looked like, uh, I don't know, I looked like that guy. I remember from the Grateful Dead concert. You probably looked like somebody who works at Vice. Well, there you go. They actually seem like very nice folks, but I was there in the, in the voiceover booth, and I, they had, you know, Snoop Dogg's reincarnation where he's, now he's Snoop Lion, and
+
+[2:30] he's like smokes a lot of pot in, uh, in Jamaica. Anyways. So they had a big poster for that. I was like, oh, you guys did that? like, yeah, Snoop Dogg did voiceovers in this room. I was like, what? I was doing some voiceovers in this. And I told them. I was like, the only reason that we started Booker and Dax the bar was in hopes of getting Snoop Dogg to come in and have some gin and juice and were unsuccessful. So maybe they're gonna, maybe they're gonna work on that. You think? That'd be awesome. Right? That's good. Also, I have to show, I'm just being a jerk, but Helen Hollyman runs Munchy. She's awesome. She used to have a show here called You Look Hungry. So. Did you in fact look hungry at that time? Um, I didn't. Maybe she did. No, I guess I did. I looked a little hungrier back then. Like now it's just, who cares anymore? No longer hungry. Uh, got another uh, interesting story. By the way, should you have questions, cooking related or otherwise, why don't you write the call them in too? 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128. 71 what? the new Brooklyn exchange, by the way? anyone know? It's not just 718 anymore, right? I think there's a 646. No, that's that's everywhere. Oh, there's a new Brooklyn? No, I'm asking because I have no idea. Like back in the day, right? You had your Manhattan, which was your 212. Which is, I have a 212 cell phone. Somehow. We know. Fancy man. And then you had 718 was everybody else. You know what I mean? And then, you know, 917 came. We had our cell phones, but now it's just, it's all over the freaking map. Even Jack, a Brooklyn resident can get a 2 on 2 on his cell phone. The hell is that all about? What joke? Yeah, yeah. numbers don't mean anything anymore, you know? It used to mean, like, you know, you could tell something about someone by the by their telephone number. Not anymore. Now it's wasted. So this morning, by the way, you were familiar with wasabi oil, Stas? No. Jack, wasabi oil? Like real wasabi? Well, it's not. No, that's the thing. It's like real wasabi in the way that truffle oil is real truffles. It's not, you know. So what it typically is, is, um, some form of neutral oil carrier
+
+[4:35] with, uh, mustard oil in it, the spicy stuff, not the unspicy stuff, and then a couple of other flavorings that are added to make it approximate wasabi,
+
+[4:43] right? And even though it's not real, I love it. I think it's good stuff. But, but, it's, were you there that time I had that like half hour or hour long argument with Dave Chang about wasabi mashed potatoes? Yeah, whatever. get into it. But the uh, he hates them. He thinks that you cannot make a good mashed potato with any flavoring of
+
+[5:03] wasabi in it. And I disagree. I think that a potato. I'm not saying that it's not like used or spent or that like, you know, I don't know, maybe Applebee's had it on their menu at some time or
+
+[5:14] whatever, or I'm not saying it's not like ridiculously cross-cultural in some sort of
+
+[5:18] way, but there's nothing wrong. Like, if you were to have, if someone, if you were having, like, mashed potatoes and somebody dropped a little wasabi in from the sushi that they were eating and you tasted it and they were really creamy mashed potatoes, you wouldn't be like, this sucks.
+
+[5:31] You know what I mean? But I couldn't get that, couldn't get the three. know, another thing, it's good. Miso cream miso soup. Also good. Is it traditional? No. Does it taste good? Yeah. Yeah, it tastes good. Anyway, well, I'm not gonna get into it. I happen to like wasabi oil for various applications. So I have some in my house. Now, wasabi oil is earth shatteringly, um, pungent in the way horseradish is, right, to your nose in your eyes, right? So Dax wakes up this morning. And he goes to the pantry and kids, right? He's 10. He just turned 10. Totally, they don't care where their body is. They knock stuff over. They used to it. They're like, it's an accident. I'm like, it's, I mean, it is an accident and the fact that you didn't intend to do it. But on the other hand, it's not an accident and that you didn't arrange your life such that you wouldn't happen. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's what I try to tell them all the time. You know, it's like, so anyways, so he reaches in, grabs something, pulls out, knocks over the freaking bottle of wasabi
+
+[6:28] oil. It does like a triple somersault, opens, and pours wasabi oil all over our Roomba, our robotic vacuum
+
+[6:38] system, all over the floor, all over Dax's hands. I'm like, oh my god. Genuine, except she hears me saying, 0 my god, because it's like the worst thing that could ever happen. And then all of a sudden, Dax. I think he touched his face with his hands and he starts going, my eyes. My eyes! We're running around, we're like flushing him, and I literally, in the pantry, which is
+
+[7:00] closed, couldn't stay in there for longer than 5 seconds at a time while we were cleaning up all this wasabi oil.
+
+[7:06] He's like, daddy, you should not have that stuff in the house. And I'm like, nah, you should not spill that stuff, Dax. kind of true. What do you mean? Or like up high or something, you know? Well, they can't, a pie, where they can't. Yeah, I guess, but you know, he climbs on top of chairs and whatever. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. anyway. nightmare. You got a caller? I do? I don't I call her? Color, you're on the air. Hi, can you hear me? Yeah sure. So I have a question about immersion circulators and
+
+[7:37] making stock last broth. I, I got a, uh, one of the, uh, the sand stairs stick for, for Christmas and I've been fooling around with it. And I was wondering if there's any, any, any reason that you
+
+[7:50] would want to cook in water to make a, cook, cook meat and make a broth and extract the liquid. I don't know if, you know, if it's, you know, gonna make a less flavored broth than you would if you just cook it at higher temperatures. But I sort of like the idea of, you know, of having the meat usable, having the broth flavored, and I guess, Indiana, I would like to see if there's any way to make a,
+
+[8:13] like a bolito meat, so perfectly cooked with all the meat together, but that's sort of a long term.
+
+[8:21] Right. I kind of understand what you mean. Here are the issues, right? So when you're doing a low temp work with a stock, you're never going to get the kind of gelatin extraction that you would
+
+[8:32] get, because the temperatures on our side, it's going to take, you know, forever and whatnot. But you are onto something, um, and I use this kind of technique a lot or used to, uh, for a number of reasons. Okay, so what are they? Typically, when you're when you're cooking a stock, you need relatively large quantity of whatever you're going to flavor the stock with to to make, um, and you you need a relatively large quantity of water,
+
+[9:02] right? And so this can be antithetical to the meat tasting good and to how you're going to make your stuff, or you just simply might not have enough of your product around. So the classic one that we always did back at the FCI was a squab. You know, you want to make a very strong tasting squab, like roast bones squab stock, but you, you know, you don't have that many squab bones. So what do you do? So what we would do then is take an already made stock, pack a not that much, you know, not that high amount of it
+
+[9:29] in into a bag and circulate it, and then you can extract that flavor out of the relatively small quantity of meat and bones that you have and get a really squabby kind of
+
+[9:38] the stock. That would be difficult to do in a pot just because you don't have that many of them around, right? So that's one kind of an application. But the other thing is, is that you have the ability to do full wet cooking, like, you know, like a poach, but in a much smaller amount of liquid. So if you start with a cooking liquid that is uh, equal
+
+[10:03] to uh, or higher in flavor than the meat that you're using, then you will not
+
+[10:10] leach, uh, you know, huge amounts of flavor out of your meat, you might transfer like they might equalize in flavor somehow, but you're not going to leach a huge amount of flavor
+
+[10:21] out. If you add a bunch of water to the, to the meat, then obviously you're going to be leaching some of the flavor out. But a lot of times that's okay, because we kind of like the flavor of like a mild poached thing where it's kind of in a stock, or if you're doing like a
+
+[10:35] pas de feu or something like this, you're used to having the meat itself not be as flavorful because it's been leached out somewhat by the stock, but you can create
+
+[10:42] a, you know, because you're not using as much water, you can have it more intensely flavored. However, you're not going to have that much reduction. So you have to take into account the fact that there's no reduction and decrease proportionately the amount of liquid that you're going to put in. The, um, other thing is, is that usually when you're in a bag at low temperature, uh, I mean, you can go very high temperature, you
+
+[11:04] could boil it, in which case that's not the case, but in lower temperature, uh, even though you're going to extract flavors out as you cook in
+
+[11:09] a broth, you're never going to get that shredded consistency that you would get from the higher
+
+[11:13] temperature just because that just doesn't happen. in the bag at those low temperatures. Now, you could just put the bag in and boil it, which is what we would do, not boil it, but simmer it, which is what we would do for
+
+[11:23] squab stocks because really we're trying to get maximum flavor extraction out. We're not trying to keep the meat of that stock at a, at a kind of a nice eating texture, right? Because it's hard to get it kind of both ways there. The other caveat, I would add, is any veg that you're going to put in, you got to pre-cook because unless you're going to do very high temps, like traditional temps, in which case it'll all taste traditional, but if you're not going to do traditional temps, you're not going to cook the veg at the same
+
+[11:50] temperature, you're going to cook the meat. Is this being helpful at all or no? Yeah, no, I think I think it's a matter of experimentation too. Because I, you know, I don't really have that much experience with the bad cooking period. Yeah. I think it's just figuring out what works and what doesn't. I mean, I think that I don't have a pressure cooker, but I've also been thinking that I should get one to combine the methods and make a really intense stock, and then combine it with meats cooked and bag, and then sort of combine them at the end, and maybe something, you know,
+
+[12:19] in, I, I imagine it could have, you know, more flavor, both elements than, than doing, uh, just boiling in, in the
+
+[12:26] liquid, that makes sense. Right, sure. Well, there's, I mean, well, okay, well, I'll break it down to you there in terms of kind of how to think when you're running your experiments. And once you start thinking in terms of what the bag does versus what your normal cooking does, it's, you know,
+
+[12:41] it's pretty, pretty simple. You got to break the bag down into 2 different components. You either, A, use the bag. Well, A, use the bag because you want to cook low temperature, right? In which case, now you're talking about temperature control phenomenon, right? And that's what you're aiming to work at. Or two, you're using the bag because you, um, don't want to have to use a lot of liquid and the bag is going to keep your liquid in contact with your product,
+
+[13:09] right? So those are the 2 kind of reasons you would choose it. The 3rd is you're not going to lose volatiles out of the bag, the way that you would lose when you're cooking, and that's good for certain kinds of flavors that tend to change a lot because they
+
+[13:22] volatilize as you cook. But you have to add to that the fact that there is no reduction in the bag. I mean, that's the primary, that's the primary thing that people fail to wrap their heads around, all other cooking techniques that aren't in the bag, even in some pressure cookers, although pressure, if you're used to pressure cookers, you'll notice that you get much less reduction in
+
+[13:43] the pressure, even a venting pressure cooker, non-venting pressure cooker is almost like a bag
+
+[13:47] and that you get almost no reduction, but that's very hard to kind of wrap your head around because when you're doing traditional cooking that's not sealed, right, you're used to at least getting, even if it doesn't look like it's reducing that
+
+[13:59] much. Remember as a meat cooks, it gives off juices. And as it gives off juices, those dilute the juices that are in
+
+[14:05] the bag or in the pressure cooker, which is why. Do you think, let's just say for an experiment. What's just fill a pot with water, have a, you know, a chicken in it? Okay, without the bag, is it, you're not gonna get enough gelatin extraction to make the, have the stock have a body, and you're also just cooking it too low of a temperature to get flavor into the water, as, you know, even removing it from
+
+[14:28] the, the bag of the equation entirely. Here, if there's any value in that at all. Oh, uh, yeah, I mean, look, a lot depends. If you, like, I used to do, before I had the, like, Jacques Pepin had a book that came out in the
+
+[14:42] 80s. It was kind of his 2 volume set of how to cook the color one, not the black and white
+
+[14:46] one. It was great. And he had a, uh, a recipe for chicken salad that, uh, that was Danny Kay's original recipe. Uh, you know, the composer and actor and uh, and uh, conductor. Actually, I don't know if he was a composer, a conductor and actor. And, uh, his old recipe for cooking the chicken was to load it into a pot, just barely cover it with water, bring it up to a simmer, then cover it and let it
+
+[15:12] ride the same way that, you know, a lot of people do with, uh, in fact, the way I do
+
+[15:16] it with boiled eggs, when you're doing a lot of hard-boiled eggs. You know, bring it up to a simmer and let it ride, because it's not going to overcook that much as it cools down, but you're in that window of cooking temperature long
+
+[15:24] enough. Yeah. And I used to do that all the time. And I would always, you know, even if I was going to take out the breast hack them up and pack them down, as long as your water to meat ratio is relatively
+
+[15:37] low. The broth tastes pretty dang good. It does not going to have the gelatin extraction. It's never going to have the body that a fully cooked stock was, but it tastes quite delicious. Yeah. And so I said, just to finish up, if you're doing it, going back to the bag with a minimum amount of liquid. Do you want the liquid? What do you want to do with seasoning beforehand? You want the liquid fully seasoned beforehand, and then
+
+[16:00] salt the meat, or is that, is it different with, with a lot of liquid versus a minimal amount of liquid, or is it, again, you have to experiment to figure out what tastes
+
+[16:09] right? I mean, you have to do some experimenting, but just know
+
+[16:15] that when you put raw meat into a bag with a liquid, the quantity of liquid is going to increase drastically when you
+
+[16:25] cook, right? And so in general, um, I kind of have to overreduce. It doesn't necessarily mean over spice, but that just means kind of over reduce, um, and in,
+
+[16:38] in general, like it's hard to say with a specific recipe you're going to use, in general, when you're putting something into a bag, vacuum sealing it in a bag, a rule of thumb
+
+[16:47] is, if the seasoning in question has an aroma, right, then you decrease
+
+[16:54] it, the amount that's going in. And if you have something that's no aroma, which really what we're talking about here is salt, right? Then you keep the level the same because the bag tends to intensify flavors
+
+[17:06] that are very high in aromatics. think rosemary, think sage. And also like those herbs can, if they're in direct contact with meat in a bag,
+
+[17:17] actually imprint themselves and make a little kind of like green spot and kind of like a weird funky flavor right at the point of
+
+[17:25] contact. If there's a hard vacuum sucked against an herb without any sort of liquid in there. So as a general rule of thumb. I would, uh, salt everything as per normal. If the meat has the right amount of salt on it, and even your hyper reduced stock has the right amount of salt in it as it's reduced, then when they all come together, they should be
+
+[17:46] okay. Um, And other things, you know, decrease in order. Like I don't decrease pepper on the outside of my steak when I'm going to put it in the bag, but I do decrease things like rosemary. You know? Well, I think I think this is super helpful. So I think at the at fewer variables before moving up to the Polito Misto, and there are going to be 10 variables. Yeah, well, again, it's like another thing is, remember, if you, what I typically what
+
+[18:13] I'll do when I'm doing work in the bag is there's certain things that I know I'm not going to eat that are only for like a stock, right?
+
+[18:22] And they're not going to be for the final service. And so those things I'll pressure cook and make a pre-pressure cooked stock that's like done. And then that one, you'll add, you'll reduce and add in as a base in your bag, and then you can get that nice kind of like poached flavor out with a much more intense flavor in the bag without overcooking the meat.
+
+[18:40] Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes perfect sense because that's it, you know, some of these, you know, something like turkey wings and deal
+
+[18:47] bones and stuff like that that you're not going to serve. Anyway as a meat. Yeah, roast them and pressure cook them. You know, hack them up, roast them, pressure cook them. Remember when you're pressure cooking. You have to, um, one of two, one of 2 problems will happen. You either need to add a lot more alliums, like things like onion or garlic,
+
+[19:08] because the flavors of those things are very highly muted. So you need to add a bunch of it. The flip side of that is all of a sudden your stock becomes a lot sweeter. You know what I mean? Or you can freshen it with a little bit of, um, like sauteed, whatever you like, you know, leeks, shallots, onions, whatever you
+
+[19:29] like. You know what I mean? But you can freshen it up after the pressure cook with that. Or, I mean, I've come to really like that kind of muted sweet flavor, but I
+
+[19:36] just like easily double or triple the amount of onion that I would add to a normal stock when I'm doing it, but it does come out a bit
+
+[19:42] sweeter, is the one caveat I'll have to give you. Okay. Well, it looks like I'll have to invest in the pressure cooker. Oh, definitely. Definitely. All right. This is super helpful. I'll you know how it goes. All right. thanks for calling in All right, so wait. You want to take a break and come back with some more cooking issues? All right, Jack. Hey, wait, Dave, how do you how do you pronounce pho? Oh, I'm terrible at that. I don't know that. Yeah, a good one there. I forget how you said it, but it was, I never heard it quite like that. Well, did that even mention Vietnamese? I thought so. I don't know. No, I was probably saying something else, man. Oh, no, pas a fut. French. Oh, my bad. We'll be right back.
+
+[20:38] Special break song today by a band called Mamarazzi. This is cooking issues on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[20:50] Why don't Passures is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir, or slaughterhouse, and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir,
+
+[21:04] a slaughterhouse. We partner with Whole Foods to deliver our high
+
+[21:08] quality, meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey. One family, one farm, five generations, 145
+
+[21:17] years, full circle return to sustainable land stewardship, humane animal stockmanship. For more information, please visit our website, whiteoakpastages.com. Okay, Jack. When did you change the background to that to like Porn Ribian music? Did that just for you today? Yeah? Nice. I like that. It's like, you know, he used to have like the, you know, does he know that
+
+[21:45] his like... Well, no, it's an ad. His ad is without music. So whatever the break song is, that's what we play underneath his ad. So, you know, it's you never know what you're going to get. Wow, yeah, I like that. Yeah. Spices it up, you know? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. By the way, we have a question that you're going to have to answer later that came in that, you know, hopefully, hopefully, we get to. Cool. Here's an update from Bryce J.D. on his Rumtoff. You remember we were talking about keeping fruits firm as they're soaking in liquor over many months.
+
+[22:19] So we have our several months later, um, update. I wanted to inform Dave of my results on dosing rum top with novo shape. Novo shape is the enzyme. It's a pectin methylestrace enzyme that helps fruits stay firm. Oh, man, anything with peck, then you really stay firm. Like you could use it with cucumbers, when you're doing pickles, but, you know, you could do things like soak it, uh, soak, uh, you need calcium with it, but you can soak,
+
+[22:45] uh, like raspberries with it and then boil the hell out of them and nothing happens to them. Anyway, the fruit firmed up nicely. I started my batch in June and added fruit and rum throughout the summer. I was unable to use the fruit, though, as it took on a nasty brown color. Look at it, Stas. Oh, yeah, she, I saw her, her lip just went, nasty brown color lip because in her mind, I think it's associated with fungus and
+
+[23:09] spools, and we all know how she feels about that. I strained out the solids and was left with a clear pinkish liqueur. The liqueur is quite nice, floral, fruity, and not overly sweet. I was wondering if they may know why the fruit turned brown. It would have been nice to have the fruit for a short bread or ice cream topping. You could have baked it into something, though. You could have blended that stuff up, right? Made some, right? Even if it's, I mean, we could have color up the color somehow. Right? I don't know. It's gone now. It's over now. fruit's gone now. It would have been nice to have had the fruit for a shortbread and ice cream topping. Also, was the liqueur clear because the novo shape allowed the fruit to maintain its structure and not transfer solids into the liqueur,
+
+[23:51] respectfully send for my iPhone, Bryce JD. Well, I guess that's probably a good point. I hadn't thought about that before, but that's probably true. It didn't break down, so the liquor remained clear, right? That makes sense. But as for the browning, uh, what you're dealing with here is a, um,
+
+[24:07] a kind of long, long-term browning effect, you need to add some antioxidants to that sucker, right?
+
+[24:14] So when you're doing it, you're going to either have to add, uh, some
+
+[24:17] esquerbic acid to it, right? Although, remember, that's going to lose its antioxid potential over time. But I prefer it. You know, like, I don't like the sodium metabisulfates and all those things, but you're
+
+[24:28] gonna need to add some form of uh, anti uh, oxidant to it. And that should inhibit the browning. Most likely, what you're looking at there is some form of oxidative browning that takes course over a long period of time, even under the influence of heavy alcohol, whether it's enzymatic in nature, even though that those enzymes are like mostly denatured or destroyed by the, um, by the
+
+[24:55] booze or whether you're dealing with the fact that, um, you know, the enzyme is just catalyzing some, uh, catalyzing something that would take place over
+
+[25:01] a long period of time anyway. So you just need to prevent the oxidation from happening anyway, you know how. High booze, one way. And, um, antioxidants another way. And so I would definitely add some antioxidants to it next time and see whether that helps. But anyone that has experience with that. I encourage them to write in. Let us know. Okay? All right. Um, Joshua writes in about equipment. Greetings from Switzerland. Yeah, Stas had her happy face on. She likes the Swiss. Well, she doesn't like the Swiss. She likes the country, Switzerland, and she appreciates their fondue and their cheese. It's a fondue thing. She loves fondue. St loves fondue. I was thinking of doing a fondue party next year for the kids. do you think? That's good. I think they like it. Yeah, I did. Chocolate, but I wanted to do also the boiling oil, old school, but
+
+[25:47] Jim was like, meh, boiling oil, kids? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Remember, my 10 year old just threw wasabi oil all over the house today. So, you know, that was a knockback in that in that direction. This year was sushi. That is an expensive party to throw. The sushi party. I bought the super fancy rice too, everything. And then full on. Yeah. And man, those kids don't know how to roll. It's pretty hard though. And then they want me to cut it right away. So, like, you know, I'm having to wipe my knife in between each cut because the grains are sticking to it.
+
+[26:17] And so the kids just start eating it like it's a freaking tube. Like, it's a fruit roll. In fact, he said, it's a burrito. And I told Dax, I was like, Dax. Who the hell taught you to make a burrito like this? It's like if you made a burrito in this fashion, I would be, I mean, I said that I
+
+[26:32] would, I would become violently angry. He didn't fold the edges in. I mean, it's not a burrito. It's like a taquito. It's been, and it's taquito, it's fried. You know what I mean? I'll say it's so, like, I was so pretzled by that whole thing. And then, like, you know, you have to dip your hand in the vinegar water, but they're dipping that hand in the vinegar water and then touching the Nori. I'm like, ah! You know what I mean? Like, it's like ruining the crunchiness on the Nori. And so why did I spend all the money on the good Nori? I'm getting the nicest, darkest, dentest, crunchiest Nori, flaming it with a sears, all the crisp it up. That's what happens when you throw a sushi party for kids. Well, they specifically asked for it. But I tell you what, Booker, I thought Jen likes a fine pair of sushi. Oh, God. Well, 1st of all, they're not talking about that on air. By the way, if any of you ever meet Dax. Don't mention that I talked about the wasabi oil because he's embarrassed by it, but Jen, my wife, Jen, and I, used to laugh at
+
+[27:25] Finefair is our local supermarket, and we're like, I was like, did I tell the, talk about
+
+[27:29] something there already? I probably shouldn't. going to get in trouble. Thanks, Stas, but now I have to tell people what it is. No, but if someone's gonna, who knows? You never know? anyway. So we're all like, hey, five fair sushi. Who's gonna eat five fish sushi? That's ridiculous. You know what I mean? And lo and behold, one day she wasn't thinking, she buys the freaking fine fair sushi. And wow. I had to go pick her up. She was like on the curb. She was on the curb, couldn't move anymore, and called me and I had to go get her because she just got debilitated by
+
+[28:00] the, by the sweet, sweet, sweet, fine fair sushi. Just don't order. don't order sushi from a, like, don't buy the, the sitting out sushi at the, at the supermarket. Don't do that. Jack, do you do that? But listen, my wife is like a very, not just educated, talented, but educated food wise. You know what I mean? So she knows it was crazy. So I don't want to hear anyone telling, I don't want to hear this story game back there that you brought this up on the air because it's not her proudest moment. It's right up there with me licking lie by mistake. Yeah, you remember that one. anyway. How the hell did we get on that? Oh, Switzerland. Sushi. Sushi. Sushi part? No, Switzerland, because next year I was saying we could do a fondue party. Because fondue is a good product, and the kids would enjoy that. It's not really make your own in the same way that pizza and sushi is, though. Maybe it is. whatever. Okay, my question, this is Joshua from Switzerland. My question relates to kitchen equipment. I'm a proud owner of an immersion circulator and an even prouder owner of a polycience 300 chamber vacuum sealer, which currently doesn't work, but that's another story.
+
+[29:04] Um, I would like to know what else I should get to experiment in my kitchen. I would like something that is versatile. I can't read what you actually wrote because it's a lot of little boxes and squared doodles. Like, you know how that happens sometimes? Like this. It's like all the boxes and doodles and squiggles, like Linus when he talks, like Linus from Peanuts. You know they're having a new peanuts movie coming out and they're changing whatever. withholding judgment. I would like to have something that is versatile on which I can use to experiment with various foodstuffs. My 1st thought was a centrifuge. Okay, so listen, if your 1st thought is a centrifuge, I'm going to assume that you have like, you know, a decent, well, I assume if you're Swiss, you have a coon recon pressure cooker,
+
+[29:45] right? Because don't they give it? Swiss German, though. And I'm sure this guy switches German. no Italian Swiss person. Well, I was saying, like, when you're born, maybe in Switzerland, they give you a coon recon pressure cooker, the same way that when you're born in Sweden, they give you a copy of the ABBA
+
+[29:59] album so that they can still be like a hugely selling album, right? Um, Anyway, um, my 1st
+
+[30:06] thought was a centrifuge, would you agree on that or would you look into something else? And if you agree on this interfuge, What do you think about the Beckman Coulter Allegra series? Thanks for your help. Cheers, Joshua. Well, I think a centerfuge is fantastic. I love it, but I mean, it all depends on how much cash you have. The Allegra costs. I mean, if you're going to spend 6000 bucks or €6000 on the next piece of kitchen equipment and you're not blinking when you do that, then I think centrifuge is a great thing to buy, right?
+
+[30:31] Um, because it's extremely versatile. You can do a lot of different things with it. I looked briefly at the Beckman Coulter, Allegra ones. They're spinning bucket rotors look like they only get up to about, there's a bunch of different series. you have to look at what you get. Their swinging bucket ones look like they can do 3 liters, but they look like they only get to roughly
+
+[30:51] 3700 Gs somewhere in there, which is like on the verge of what I think is kind of good for that price range.
+
+[30:57] Most of the people that I know who get new centrifuges for the restaurant or bar get headache, which is also available. I think it's German. And it's also available in Europe. Wiley DuFreyne uses a headache. Um, and uh, Tony Canayaro in uh, London uses a headache. I think you also might have one in Paris as Barbara. I'm not sure. So I would look at the headaches. They have pretty good numbers and they work well, but I looked at the Allegra. It should work. If you can get one, they don't swinging bucket, they'll do 4000 G's, then, you know, all the better. But, um, it's a good question. Like if you're going to spend 8 grand, there's a lot of stuff you could buy for 8 grand, right? Like a couple extra circulators, which I would definitely buy, or, um, what else? I mean, a Paco Jet. I would love to have ApocoJet. What did you buy 1st does? What do you think I would get first? Apoco jet or centrifuge? Centrifuge? Probably for me though, but I do a lot of bar work. I mean, I think a lot of chefs would prefer apoco. I mean, if you look around, more there's more paco jets than there are centrifuges around. Um, good coffee setup is another thing, but it's not necessarily versatile. You know what I mean? I mean, if you're going to do a lot of bar, if you're not going to do a lot of bar work. I don't know that you're going to spend like that much time with your centrifuge. It's a good question, though. Anyway. Derek writes in regarding ice. Hi, Dave, I follow the procedure for making clear ice in the freezer from Liquid Intelligence, that's the book by pouring hot water into a cooler. I left it outside. Uh, um, this is approximately, oh, outside, outside, 35 Fahrenheit. So you live in the northeast somewhere north somewhere. For a few hours to cool down, then put it in the freezer. The next morning, I opened it to add some stock cubes to an existing stash, and there were ice crystals all over the lid and walls of the freezer.
+
+[32:38] If I were to fasten a piece of plastic wrap over the cooler the next time, would that prevent crystal formation in my
+
+[32:43] freezer, or would it end, or would it mess up the ice block formation? Thanks, Derek. Well, it might mess up the ice block formation. What I would say is put the plastic wrap over it. That will definitely stop some of the, you know, steam and crap from coming up and then just remove it right as the ice is starting to
+
+[33:03] form. Uh, I would, don't leave it on. You're not, you definitely want to get rid of any insulating layer between the ice formation and
+
+[33:12] the ice formation front and the freezer as it's freezing, but I don't think it's going to hurt the ice block formation to have
+
+[33:19] plastic wrap over it in the initial couple of hours as it's cooling down. And that should greatly reduce the amount of crystallization you get all over the inside of your
+
+[33:28] freezer. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, what I typically do is I throw,
+
+[33:36] I use hot water, put it right in, throw ice cubes in, and get it down to basically below room temperature, and as the ice cubes are melting out, and I just don't stir it, and I put it in, which is another thing, but you have to have clear smaller ice
+
+[33:49] cubes sitting around for seeds, which is what I do. Not really seeds. Don't think of it of seeds, and not seeds. Take back that, take back the word and it's seeds. Okay. Look who's here. What? who's here? Who's here? Johnny. Johnny Azini? No, no. From Madison? Johnny Hunter? Really? Come on in. Nice. Hi. We are joined in the studio now unexpectedly. Johnny Hunter from the from the Underground Food Collective in Madison, Wisconsin. How you doing? doing pretty well. How are you? Sorry, I just heard recently that you did a pop-up in the Brooklyn. Yeah, we did 2 days at Fitzgeraldo, so how was it? was great. I have to say, we've done pop-ups in Manhattan, and the kitchen size is a little bit better in
+
+[34:36] Brooklyn, we found out. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I would say that that's true. The benefits were really nice. So yeah, it was super fun. Friend runs the restaurant, so we just, I was like, I had to come out here anyway, so we always try to like line it up between doing events and also other things we have to come out for.
+
+[34:53] So. So what did you, what did you make? anything? It was mostly an exploration of like fermented turnips. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's like, for us, winter is like Wisconsin, so much of our food, so I think it's our,
+
+[35:07] it's we really try to go big time with like fresh flavors with winter
+
+[35:12] vegetables. That was the whole thing. And then we had a bunch of beef that was, we called it old beef, so we aged it out for about 6 months. And then we just served that raw. What else do we do? By the way, how frozen up is MadTown right now? It's actually really nice. It's like 35. there was like 2 weeks there where it was like -20. But are people skating on the lakes yet or no? Yep. Yeah. That's the best part. If you can be active, your life is much better there. No, I mean, like, well, maybe it's probably not smart to visit in the wintertime for a non-person from there, right?
+
+[35:49] Uh, I think the 1st 2 weeks of January generally have these days that are just like people just don't know how to deal with it. It's like, you know, you get in and it's like really cold and there are things you really need to be recognizing of like, you know, layering and just like having hats and good gloves and
+
+[36:07] making sure that you're not, you know, you don't have your kids out in like the harsh elements, but the thing is, is like people are just really industrious about it. And like, it's just a reality. Yeah, man, wow. Yeah, you know, us us wussies here from New York, you know, we look down on the people from the south who can't handle the code, but we're like, you know, we're nothing. We're jackwads to you guys. I'm glad you're here, actually, because I have a coffee and a coffee. centerfuge, another centrifuge question, and I would like to talk about your story, your centrifuge story, if possible. Okay, so we got a question in last week from Steven Hoppy from Chicago. And he said that contact, he'd want to know whether or not he should buy the centrifuge. And I said, meh, meh. I think that's what I said, roughly. What was it because of the brand or because of whether or not he should get it? I couldn't see on the inside. There was a lot of like issues and it didn't get to a high enough. There's a lot of issues. Anyway, I contacted a seller and he said they don't have a rotor for the unit. Don't ever buy a used centrifuge without a rotor unless you have another one stay next to it with a rotor, right? That a parts fuge. You know? Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just explain our experience with Centerfugees because we have the University of Wisconsin there. Yeah. And so they, we get about we, I have like 15 now. You should go to business selling these suckers. And so it's been this thing where, you know, I've learned a lot about how to take
+
+[37:35] them apart and use them and stuff because it's just like, it's like, if something's not working, I was like, well, just grab it out of that one. We haven't even plugged them all in yet. So, you know, it's hard when I see people looking on eBay and asking a lot of questions, it's like, well, I got to go and inspect them and look at them and stuff. And so you do, you know, and I should say, I do like getting new rotors because we had that experience where the rotor broke.
+
+[37:57] That's what I wanted you to kind of talk about. Johnny's the only, like, cook I know of that's had a real freaking failure, like a real freaking rotor failure.
+
+[38:06] You wanna describe this? Yeah, so we have, what's the brand now? It's, uh, they had the square buckets. That, I can't remember, but it was, it's not the, the Julie or what? Not the Juan. Wasn't it like, didn't Beckman cool? Yep, Beckman. Um, so we, we had a Beckman and it had a glass top, which was awesome. Oh, yeah, I've used those before. awesome. Yeah, yeah. And we, you know, we went through and we, you know, visually inspected everything.
+
+[38:35] Um, but we didn't, there, there's a centerfuge company in town that will, you know, pressure test the steal and stuff like that. We didn't do everything. Yeah. So we did that. We do that now. Anyway, so we had a bucket, we had a bucket that, that broke because it had a hairline fracture that we didn't know about, and it threw the bucket into the wall of the centrifuge, which then moved the
+
+[38:59] centrifuge 3 feet. Um, and like shook the building, which is just like a concrete
+
+[39:07] floor and everyone was just like, someone was standing, you know, near it and it wouldn't, it wouldn't have hurt anyone bad. Not bad. I mean, like, you know, like, you know, broken leg maybe, but. It also happened like within the 1st week that we had
+
+[39:23] it and so like the centrifuge was definitely a scared thing around the
+
+[39:28] kitchen. So we've taken a lot more precautions now. I'm glad you soldiered on. He's like, it wouldn't have hurt any worse than stepping in a bear trap. That happens like every every other day anyway. But man, yeah, the building's not like some sort of puny flimsy building that you should be able to hear minor things
+
+[39:42] through. It's an old bus station. Yeah, well, here's the good news, though. The good news is, and I had been worried for a long time because it's the same class of centrifuge that, you know, a lot of us have, which is a
+
+[39:52] 3 liter benchtop fuge. Um, and they all roughly do about, they all, Molly hold roughly 3 liters, and they roughly do about 4000 Gs. And I had never seen one fail, so it'd always been my impression that no one would die. And then when Johnny was like, hey, it happened. I was like, hey, did anybody die? He's like, no, I'm like, sweet. You know what I mean? Yeah, it was that Mark the Spark was the person sitting next to it. Oh, classic. Classic. All right. So, uh, we had a, uh, this is more of a comment on last week. remember we were talking about my new coffee grinder thing that I was working on orphan espresso. Remember I was talking about those guys? You know those guys, orphan espresso? Do you know them personally? No, I just seen their products. Yeah, I really want one of the pharaohs, but the guy, they just don't care. They make them when they come in and they sell out in like 2 seconds. Yeah. Lido, too, you can get. But, um, anyway, so then, um, who was it, Joel Esposito, who has a really good grinder, wrote wrote in this comment, which I thought was interesting. Um, I am a coffee espresso, coffee slash espresso, uh,
+
+[40:59] enthusiast and just wanted to comment on the hand grinders mentioned in the last show. At the office, I grind my morning cup in a Mount Konig, EK 43 with 98 millimeter burrs, one
+
+[41:08] and three-quarter horsepower motor and photos attached. So that happens to be a very large, but a flat bird grinder. And it's super popular over the past couple of years, it was not designed necessarily to be a coffee grinder, but
+
+[41:22] since, I think about like 2013 or something. There's been like a cadre of people that have been using it for coffee. And, um, the interesting thing about it is, um, Um, you know, for those of you that don't know or think about grinders, right? So every grinder, a lot of people, like, they split it
+
+[41:40] into, well, is it flat or is it conical, but, you know, really even within those, within those categories, every grinder has its own kind of grind profile, right?
+
+[41:48] And so like the people who really care about this, what they do is, is they take the grinds out of a coffee grinder, they're any kind of grinder. then they plot particle size, uh, the frequency, the distribution of particle sizes. And for most as good espresso grinders, you get what's called a bimodal plot, where you get some, you know, a large peak that's centered in the kind of general range where you want your coffee particles to
+
+[42:12] be, and then you get another peak lower in what's called the fines, and you get these kind of fine particles. And, um, so there's a lot of debate is what the kind of ultimate, uh, grind profile is. But the truth also is, is that any grinder, the more you tune it down to be finer, right, the more bimodal the plot becomes because you get more fines out of something when
+
+[42:32] you when you tune it down. So then there's a lot of questions, then you can just go on the internet and look up particle distributions for different coffee, then you can see it. But this, uh, the EK 43 is renowned for making of like a good kind of grind ratio that can work with a lot of different kinds of
+
+[42:45] coffee, etc. more even, isn't it? That's what they say. Yeah, there's fewer particles. There are fewer finds. I think, I got to go back and look at the thing. But you got to remember also, I mean, think about what a fine is doing. So the fines are doing 2 separate things, right? A fine is A, then extract faster because it's fine, right? And B, in, um, things like, uh, espresso, uh, fines migrate to the bottom of the puck and like cause higher hydraulic pressures so that, you know, you need a, you would need a coarser overall thing to make up for the fact
+
+[43:18] you have these fines because the fines are packing in between and closing, or in a filter they can clog up filters, right? And so they can they can change your flow rate as well as infuse differently. So, I mean, there's multimodal what's going on, again, multimodal with what's going on with. Anyway. So that's just a little uh, little preamble to Joel's uh, comment here. So here's what he said, which I think is really interesting. Oh, let me get to it. Okay, at the office, I grind my morning cup in a Malconic EK 43. At home, I grind in a small Hario hand grinder, very small burrs. That's the little, which, by the way, I have it, but I just hate grinding it because it just takes so damn long. I know, this is how I time, like, heating up my water. He's like, I try to beat it with the grinder. Actually, I have a burgrinder now, but... And I sit there and like, you know how you get angry when you're turning that knob and
+
+[44:12] you push it too hard and the beans fly out of the hob. And then the knob comes off and then the threads get stripped. I'm familiar with all of those things. Yeah, it's nice. It works. Yeah, yeah. anyway. Uh, so they uh, the hand grinder, very small birds. The former is a beast powering through a cup's worth of coffee before I can hit the off button. must be nice. The particle size distribution is incredibly even. And the 1st cup I ground in it had practically no finds. I think he's talking about the Malconing again here. Okay? However, after breaking in the Malconi, I've noticed a market increase in fines production, which seems to not only create muddy flavors in the cup, but somehow simultaneously masks the wonderful volatiles that I paid
+
+[44:53] hard-earned money for in single origin coffees at the local indie shop. It's not a huge issue for single cup pourovers, but when you're brewing 2 to 4 cups, 6 ounces
+
+[45:02] each, the pesky fines impede the flow of water and slow the extraction rate. Makes sense, right? I've done side by sides, actually back to back, seeing as I can only prepare one cup at a time of the
+
+[45:14] Hario unsaved versus, oh, and then he didn't mention this, but he bought a Humble, which is a manufacturer, a 500 micron sieve. And so he's sitting there. Somehow this got confused in the in the in the email thing. But what he did was, is he took his heart, his hand grinder and put it through a sieve to get rid of the fines. There's a guy in Madison who does that. Professionally? Well, he like he works at shops and stuff and he'll like sieve the coffee. What a bitch, huh? Anyway. I mean, I love it. I appreciate it. Anyway, so, um, so he did, he did side by side of the Hario, unsaved versus passed through the 500 micron sieve to eliminate the fines, not only does the flow rate improve, which we would expect,
+
+[45:57] uh, but he gets the same quality that he gets out of the 98 millimeter, um, flat burrs on the um, Malconi. He says it's equal cup quality. That was like a $3000 grinder? Yeah, somewhere in there. So it's always... for like 100 bucks or like, I mean, the sieve would be like 15 bucks a create. Yeah, like 30 maybe? Yeah. Like if you buy it pre-made, it's like 30 bucks. Yeah. So this is what he's saying. Oh, by the way, he says he doesn't waste the fines. He simply adds up, and he said, actually, he says it's as good as the Malconi was before, like when it was brand new before it started creating the fines. So it goes back to where back to where it once belonged. So he said he doesn't waste the fines. I simply add them back to the rest of my coffee during the final phase of extraction or running through my Godgia classic, which surprisingly produced a drinkable shot of espresso. This method still is a wider range of particle sizes, but all that matters to me is the perceived end result. Knowing that I mail, because, remember, there's larger ones in there that you wouldn't get in the Malconic, like bigger ones. So therefore, he says, knowing that I may have failed to extract a few parts per 1000000 of solids from a couple of larger coffee chunks doesn't bother
+
+[46:57] me. The bottom line is the $35 Hario plus a sieve, produce a cup comparable to a 2K plus grinder. We used to use the Hario's to grind pepper for our salami company, and we would take drills, take the top
+
+[47:11] off and just like grind the pepper through it. It was great. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether I've seen a lot of drill mods. You know, as someone asked, my whirly pop for my roaster, I put a motor mod on that. I had someone asked me to post it. going to probably go to home barista and I'll post it on something like that because I have like a, you know, an STL
+
+[47:31] file type. But, uh, do a lot of people put drills onto the Arios or no? I'd never, I was just like grinding pepper one day. I have the Lido The Lido 2 grinds. I mean, it's a slower than, you know, my, you know,
+
+[47:46] ranchilio, but it's a lot faster than the Haria. Yeah. Yeah. We um, we also use the drill for cavatelli makers. Yeah? Oh, the book yeah. Yeah, you just put a drill on the back, just whip through it. Another note on the Hario, by the way, is that, uh, so there's a big, um, there's a big thing I'm
+
+[48:08] gonna do, right? And they're going to kick us off. a big thing I'm a do with whether or not your burr should be suspended on both sides, like anchored on both sides,
+
+[48:17] right? When you're doing a burn, a grinder. Uh, and so a lot of the people that have done kind of mods do one side mount only.
+
+[48:25] The guys that orphan espresso, um, they're a believer in firmly mounting the burrs, right? And, you know, that's, I guess, one of the reasons they say that they get like good distribution on their stuff. I think it moves. Moves up and down, but not left and right. Right? Oh, the Hario, you mean? Yeah, the Hario moves around. Yeah, if you mount it on the bottom, that would be great. Well, he sells, that's why the orphan espresso sells for 14 bucks, a plate that you can bolt into the bottom of your Hario that pins it on both
+
+[48:57] sides that you then adjust and tack it down for 14 bucks, and he's what he says in the in the thing, in his explanation of it, is that, well, if you do this, it will no longer be good for espresso, but it's good for coarser coffee.
+
+[49:11] I want to go back to the sieve. Why can't you just create a wider sieve to let the grinds go through that you want? And then a thinner one. And so then their middle packet, you get, you know, completely consistent. Okay, totally could. Yeah, I mean, it seems like you totally could, but you could choose exactly the range you want to pass. You get. I mean, if you're a real, like, nutweed about it, you could just have it, like, you could get small one and put it in one of those little, you know, those little, and
+
+[49:40] then, like, just grind into the, and just pull the middle guy out. Like put a little, you know. And then you can make like another extraction with the fines and the large and, you know, compare it. But I don't know. The people say that that some difference in grind size is good for flavor. It gets a little too flat at the same extraction. I don't know. Well, yeah, I mean, look, they're going to extract differently with brewing kinetics, right? It's all about the kinetics of it. It's going to change. But I guarantee you you could sell someone. If you had like mega course, and then like the fines, and then like the inbetweeners, you could definitely, like, especially if you did different brewing styles for each one of those 3 things, you could be like, well,
+
+[50:19] you should just do this as an attachment to the seers all. You say some of them. You got a minisimmer? I need to become an expert in kind of pourovers because I don't know, you know, I'm not. Well, we, but that would be, it would be interesting thing, right? Like, take the same exact bean, grind grind them at the same time, produce 3 entirely different cups of coffee with them. Yeah, with a you know, $40 hand grinder. Yeah, and a little... Well, you know, I modify modifying my Lido, too, which is your friend espresso, small hand grinder, to be stationary. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, so see, because I hate unscrewing the glass, because every time I unscrew the glass jar from it. So it's got a glass jar, just like a Hario does, but it's very easy to screw up your grind when you unscrew it. And I always break the jars. Really? I'm not going to use a jar anymore. Yes. when you get rid of it. It's all plastic now with a little cup. That's what I that's what I'm doing. Uh, okay. So, there, there's some, we're not gonna, we don't have time. I got some good comments back, especially with like a liquid intelligence, the
+
+[51:18] book with someone who's got a method to fake the Thai basil daiquiri if you don't have access to Thai basil, which is kind of cool. But we'll have to get to that. like, do they not have like an Asian grocery store? Yeah, they went to somebody's house or something like this. Yeah, okay. This has come up before for me before. Um, but, but actually, I want to mention these 2 Amazon, I have 2 favorite Amazon reviews that just came on.
+
+[51:39] I got a 3 star and a one star, right? Recently. The one star, I think, is... The 3 star, I think, is worse than the one star. They're they're both pretty bad. But why don't you... For the one star is a great book for a chemist. For the layman mixologist, it is too much useless information. But that's one star? That's one star. Well, well, well, well, it requires chem, a large degree. Which is not true, dude. Let me tell you what, one star is, I've given you incorrect information. This useless person could just open up to the one like
+
+[52:13] 4 page section where I just put like 50 classic cocktails in with like how to make them
+
+[52:19] and their specs and easy to look at format, rip it out and throw the rest of the book away and it's worth more than one freaking star. But also, why, why is that a criticism? Like, why would you buy this book? You know, if you want like just easy cocktails? Like, you know, like, it's like this book is for a specific audience, you know? If you were just to do, oh, here's 50 classics. Who cares? Yeah, that book's been rid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, that's it. That person, they need, they need to get crushed. You know what I mean? But here's the other one. The 3 star was, this was a gift. I think it was liked, but I can't read it since it was not for me. It was a gift. Three stars. If you can't rate it, you can't rate it. Don't rate it. So was the person giving it as a gift? Yeah. They gave it as a gift to someone else that they reviewed it negatively. They gave it 3 stars. I don't really know whether it was good or bad. I think the person I gave it to liked it, but I can't really rate it. So I'll just rate it in the middle because I don't know. It could be, you know, like... What does that have to do with it? A one star review should be that the the author is like either grossly inaccurate or if the book is horribly written or they suggest something
+
+[53:30] abhorrent, like chumming babies. You know what I mean? And like, anything else, you're just a jerk. You know what I mean? People, people. I flagged. We sold a lot of your books at our butcher shop because people just buy stuff during the holidays. Oh nice. So I was a little worried. People are just like, we're just going to buy what's every here. We have like 2 books there. And like, they're like, okay, well, let's be good. So a lot of people are like, hopefully there's a lot of people out there searching for their own home
+
+[53:55] centrifuge systems now. Well, remember, like in the book, I say, like, I don't expect you to buy any of this crap. You know what I mean? But I'll give you ways around it, but why not tell you how we do it? Why not tell you how we do it? All right, so we're not going to get to Alex and Toronto's question, nor are we going to get to
+
+[54:10] Louis Frederic Michel. Hope I got your name right. He said good luck with pronouncing that one. But the thing is, I would do an America style. It'd be like Louis Frederick Michaud. right? That how you do it in America. Michu probably is how it's supposed to be pronounced. But on the way out, Jack, you're going to have to chime in on this one. And Johnny, you chime into Dave, Nastasia, and Jack's favorite bands and Johnny's favorite bands. And PS, can we get Dade to do his Sir Mix-A-Lot style? I like big burrs and I cannot lie. And I won't. I won't. Why not? But you won't do that. Or you won't lie. Oh, well, those other brothers can't tonight. You've done it before. come on. I've never done big buts, have I? I love big birds. Really? Do it. Now, if I've already done it, we'll have to search the thing. So what do you got, Jack? What's your current favorite? What do you listen to? I answered him. This was my list. You can make fun of me if you'd like. So it was Radiohead, Bjork, Outcast, Apex Twin, The Flaming Lips. Oh yeah? That's my list. Well, Stas saw Bjork at a party. And you know what Stas' comment was? Dirty tennis shoes. Yeah. She said, the lady is so rich. What's she doing with dirty tennis shoes? I't like... D tennis shoes? I'm wearing the dirtiest tennis shoes right now. No, you're not New York. Yeah, you're not, it's true. You're I did get on the train today and I saw someone's white shoes and these are like 3 weeks old and they're white and now they're great. I was like, 0 my goodness. I like the phenomenon of people that wear only white and they get filthy, like filthy white. That's like Kareem Rashid, the famous designer's got the filthy white going, which is kind of sweet. At least it used to. Okay, what do you got, Johnny? What do you got for us? Sonic Youth. Yeah? Yeah. Like old school sonic. Old school sonic, youth. I like that. Nice. All right. Stas, what do you got? I don't know. Come on, his name's from crappy like. Or who do you hate the most? Who you love to hate? Yeah, Nastasia's hate list, thank you. No, when I was working out yesterday, I was listening to the Croce. Oh, Jim Croce? Dean, Dean, Dean. Like, Stas likes any anyone who crashes an airplane in the south, smashes. Is that true? No? Like that little girl in Kentucky or whatever? Oh, man, the one that crawled there? was crazy. We talked about it on the show for some reason. Anyway, what do I like? Stas does like the crochee. So for those of you that don't know, like Stas and I have a couple of like internal running jokes that we do that we don't do on the
+
+[56:21] air. So Jim Croce was well-known. One of his famous songs was yeah, operator, right? And then he's like talking to this operator, and he's like, like chewing this freaking operator's ear off. So Stas and I are joking about like, the hell is wrong with you? The operator doesn't give a crap. you know what I mean? And then like he at the end is like, you can keep the dime. Well, of course she freaking can. She's trying to, it's a phone company. Well, yeah, whatever. Right. not even hers. But the other one that we always do is the, what's that song called? I know it's, oh, I just had to say, I love you in a song, where it's like, calls up this lady. And he's like, I know it's kind of late. I hope I didn't wake him. he keeps on freaking talking and talking. It's like 3 AM in the freaking morning. He keeps on talking and talking. Stas and I are like, the phone rings at 3 a.m. and you're like, who died?
+
+[57:05] Who died? And he's like, I know it's kind of late. And you're like, what the hell? Anytime, like, he called us, he'd be like, eh, that would be all we got. Anyway, I'll talk about my favorite bands next time. I like so many different kinds of bands. Give them one. Yeah. Yeah. For country, I like Merle Haggard. perfect. All right? cooking issues.
+
+[57:35] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[57:45] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools.
+
+[0:08] Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Every Tuesday from about 12. Super late this time, 1215 to about, I don't know, when do they kick us off the air? 1245. But then, no, they really kick 1250. Stas, Mike's not on? Oh, it is. Oh, no. Oh, yeah, there you go. All right, nice. Joined as usual. Nastasia. Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, status? I see you've retired your Christmas hat, which I'm very sad about. Nastasia has perhaps the greatest Christmas hat of all times, all times. Like, it is like wearing a knit Christmas tree on her head.
+
+[1:13] pretty sick. don't think it's hipster, do you? You know, if nothing you wear could possibly be hipster because, you know, then it would be like matter anti-matter coming together and, you know, you would dissolve in a burst of energy and light, you
+
+[1:26] know? But this is quite a tall hat you got and it's kind of pretty... The one she has right now or the Christmas hat? I think the one now is potentially boring. I know, but it's warm. It's got a pretty sick pom-pom on top. It's like you've executed some sort of small fluffy animal and just directly put it on top of your hat. You know the thing about the pom-pom is it doesn't actually add any warmth to your hat. Yeah, I wonder what the history of it is. Oh, here stars coming down the street. I can tell by the pom-pom. Maybe. Maybe. In the booth, we have, what do we got over there? We got Jack and White over there in the engineering booth. We're here AY, do me a favor. Figure out who it was that wrote in about the Thai Basil, because I can't remember if I want to give them a shout out for their awesome idea. And joined in the studio with heritage radios. New intern for the next couple of months. What is it, Devlin? Declan. Declan. Declan. Nice. Hey, Declan, how you doing? pretty good. And tell you, why don't you tell people where you're from? I'm from Brooklyn. New York. I'm from Park Slope. Yeah, but what do you're here as part of something with your high school, right? Yeah, we, for the 2nd semester of our senior year, we do an internship instead of like regular classes. So I'm doing this. Yeah, nice. Nice. They didn't let me do that when I was in high school. No, that when I was in high school, you know what you did? You stayed in school. Although seniors were allowed to leave. I didn't have a car, so I didn't, because I wasn't that kid with a car, even though I did come from the land where, you know, everyone had Audis with dancing bears on the back.
+
+[2:51] Uh, you know, I was not one of those. I wish I was one of those kids. But anyway, so and so how do you get into this intern thing? What do you? A little bit of nepotism. My sister works for Roberta's, so she kind of got me the gig here. You're a senior in high school, right? Let me teach you something very freaking early in life. Nepotism is like, everyone's like, oh, yeah, I want to do it all on my own. I don't want any help. That's crap. Take whatever help you can get from whoever you can get from wherever you can get it. Every, almost everyone that you've heard stories of, you know, later in life, we're like, I started with nothing. And I built it all myself without help. It's all lies and crap. Like, if you look into what most people like do, they have some freaking help, you know? So don't worry about the nepotism. Do not be ashamed. Like, here's the thing. once you get a position of, I don't know, are you going to be a wealth and power, is that what you're shooting for in life? I don't know about that. No, whatever. lets say you were. Like once you're there, then you can say, okay, maybe I shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't dole out the nepotism to someone who is unworthy.
+
+[3:54] You know what I mean? Like, that's the responsibility. Once you have the crap to dole out. Then you have a responsibility. When you don't have anything, you have no responsibility not to accept the generosity of others. Just saying, what do you think, Stas? did it all myself. I did it all myself. I started from nothing. A lowly Stanford grad. Jack, what do you think? I agree. And I also just want to add that I'm doing a little research here. It seems like pom-poms are pretty much pointless and decorative. In some cultures and religions, they denote like the rank, you know, by color. So where do the black pom-pom rank? I don't know. She's been listening to the to the city as mine, just like, or not the city as mine. What's it? What's the one? All black, everything. Oh my god. My brain is erased. All my rap knowledge has been erased. Anyways, I have a question in from Matt in Chicago. Dear cooking issues, folk. I have a bit of a challenge for you. I'm writing on behalf of my daughter. She's doing her 5th grade science fair, and her project is about acids and bases. We have the assets down. She's dissolving an eggshell, a whole egg, and one container of vinegar, and setting the egg whites in another. Can you recommend some cool food-based experiments she can do with bases? I thought about pretzels or alkaline noodles, but didn't think either would be interactive enough. Also, she can't really cook anything on site, thoughts, Matt from Chicago. PS, she's a big fan of the show. I wish my kids were big fans of the show. Actually, I don't, because, like, sometimes I'll mention stuff, like, Dax is already mad at me because I mentioned, what was it? I mentioned something he did that. Oh, the burning eyes. Oh, my eyes. Yeah, yeah, what was that? The wasabi oil. Nah, sad. She's a big fan of the show and wants to come in, call in sometime. Unfortunately, she's in school when you guys are live. Maybe I'll have her whole class in one Tuesday. LOL. That'd be fun, actually. Where's the class, I wonder. 866-708. Where 708? We'll find out Um, I've done school presentations with liquid nitrogen. That stuff's fun. Like, I've done it to, like, Illinois. We have plenty of, what, Illinois? Maybe we will have something there. I don't know. Anyway, whatever. not what we're talking about. We're talking about acids and bases. Now, listen. You're doing eggs. Hey, Stas, I can hear you crinkling your mint, like from a mile of freaking way. You guys hear that online? This is what Stas thinks about. Mince, mince, mince. I was boundary in my pocket. Yeah, all right, all right. Well, we took a car ride. We were doing a demonstration with Mario Battali at his son's high school, in fact, where we demoed, among other things, liquid
+
+[6:22] nitrogen and Dragon's Beard, 2 kind of fun demos to do in front of people. And the limo driver, what was his name again? Like Arturo or something like this. He had like a bunch of mints. So Stas was like, he didn't ask me whether my seat was comfortable. So she takes some scoops. Scoops, all of the mints into her pockets, like... Atomic fireballs and mints. She, like, looked, she, like her pockets were like, all chipmunked out with this dude's mints just because, and the sad thing is, Jack, is that the dude did ask her how her seat
+
+[6:52] was. He totally did. Whatever. Okay. You are in luck, my friend, or I should say your daughter is in luck, because if you want to stick this entire thing with eggs. A really fantastic, uh, base demo is um, doing uh, lie soaked eggs. I hope you have a couple of days to do this. I believe that if cooking issues hasn't been entirely turned into one giant Cialis ad by now by the
+
+[7:16] freaking hackers, right? I believe I put the recipe up there because it's something we used to do with Harold McGee, where we would take eggs. Now, interestingly, one of the interesting things about it is that it works differently on quail eggs, chicken
+
+[7:30] eggs and duck eggs. I've never tried a, you know, a Rhea egg or an emu egg or an ostrich egg, but it works differently on the 3 normally available eggs that I can get.
+
+[7:39] And I forget the exact percentages, but it's high. It's somewhere in the, in the, you have to get some food grade lie. Uh, don't lick it, uh, and uh, or don't let anyone near it who doesn't know what's going on. And be careful when you're following the rules on, um, on live because it's very
+
+[7:56] exothermic and so you just have to, you know, follow the rules from mixing lie. But it's something high. It's in a couple of percent lie. There's a lot of lie. And salt, a lot of salt. I think it's like 5% salt. And you soak the eggs in it for I forget, but it's like a week or something like this. And what happens is, is then when you cook them, the base has denatured the proteins to the extent that, and you
+
+[8:19] could, you know, cook them, you know, just with regular boiling water, even you could bring a pot of hot water and cook them
+
+[8:23] all because it doesn't take a lot. It's denatured the proteins to the extent that they will still set, but they are completely translucent. You can like look through them. And there's pictures on the blog of this. And you can eat them. They're funky. They taste a bit like Lutt Fisk, you know, which is another good basic thing. It's a shame she can't cook on site because I think pretzels is actually a fantastic demo, just doing the
+
+[8:46] pretzels because you can do the boil in regular water and then the boil in basic water and you can see the huge difference in browning between
+
+[8:55] them. And when you taste one and then the other. You get a very, very clear sense of what the basicity does to the taste, right? I mean, if you taste a pretzel that's been boiled in regular water. like a, like a bagel in a pretzel shape. And if you do it, the other way, it's, well, it's pretzel. You know what I mean? So, I think it's interesting, but look into that egg thing. that was a cool demo, right? People like that demo because it's weird because you can see through the egg and you're already doing a lot of work with eggs here. So maybe it's a, you know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially if you can't cook. So most of the my art things are going to be out like my artists. I mean, the things with base that you have are, right? you have the alkaline noodles. You can show the stuff turning yellow. you know, if you get the right stuff. That's interesting. You have acceleration of Maillard, and you have, you have also like, increase in, um, uh, pectin breakdowns, right? So you could do like a mushy test by adding base to something like being adding too much base to something like beans and then shifting acidic and showing how they're cooking them side by side, but you can't really do cooking. Um, and then the other one is just, um, protein destruction. Or if you don't want to do straight food, you could do saponification, you could make soap, you know, but
+
+[10:06] again, that also is going to take some cooking. Anyway, hopefully some of these things are of interest to you. But remember, when you're playing around with hardcore bases, especially lie. Uh, you're gonna want to be super duper careful. You know what my favorite acid thing with food is, even though it's not food related. You ever you ever done sulfuric acid and sugar? Do they do that for you in science class? No. It's sweet. Like the sugar just gets completely turned to carbon, but it
+
+[10:32] happens so quickly. that it forms a column of carbon coming out of the, yeah. I've seen videos of that. really, really cool. Sweet. It's not food related in the sense that you can't eat it afterwards, but it does start with food. It starts with food. Um, yeah. And speaking of uh, speaking of fats and and uh, sponification, uh, Brian from uh, Mipples, that would be Minneapolis, Mipples, uh, writes in, does anyone in Minneapolis like take umbrage at
+
+[11:01] like people calling it Mipples? I mean, I guess they wouldn't. Yeah, they wouldn't write it that way if they didn't want us to call it Mipples, right? I guess not. Nipples. Okay. Proving that no good deed goes unpunished. I have a 2nd question for you. You responded very thoughtfully to my question about chia seeds a few weeks ago. Stas. Give me your chia seed face. Your chia seed drink face. Yeah. Ch Ch Chia. Anyway, I want to solidify canola oil for disposal after using it for deep frying. I'm a bad person. I do it in a Dutch oven on the stovetop, not a commercial fryer like Dave. By the way, my commercial fryer at home right now is not fired up
+
+[11:38] with my hood is currently not operating well enough to use my deep fryer, so I have been reduced to frying on the stove like a chump. But what that means is, is I'm frying, uh, I'm frying things that don't need, um, that are not going to abuse the oil too much and that don't need very stable uh, temperatures to work and it
+
+[11:56] don't, like, so French fries, you don't want the stuff to get too low or you get too much oil, oil absorption, right? Chicken, obviously, you want to do a good job of frying. But like the easiest things in the world to fry, potato chips and tortilla
+
+[12:08] chips, because you want those suckers. Hey, you know, anyone that disagrees with me, feel free to write in, but those suckers are saturated
+
+[12:15] with oil. They're just saturated. You know what I mean? And all you're really doing with, like really what you're doing with that is you're using the oil as a dehydration technique to boil the liquids out of your stuff.
+
+[12:25] So tortilla chips and potato chips, you can start from a cold pot of oil if you want, heat it up till it's boiling, let it boil until it suckers
+
+[12:34] crisp, and then just not brown it. So at home, when I'm using a crappy fryer for, you know, crappy Dutch oven for that, like, why don't use a Dutch oven? I actually use a pasta pot with a colander in it so I can pull and drain. And, you know, I just heat it till it goes, mellow, turn it off in between batches and it's good to go. I mean, I ain't frying chicken like that, though, because, I mean, I'm not that much of a chump. anyway. The only product that I can find that supposedly solidifies things like canola oil is a Japanese product called
+
+[13:00] Cantomeda Tempuru. By the way, remember we were given a package of that after the show. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. in a couple of weeks. hopefully I'll have a chance. busy, but hopefully I have a chance to play with it and see what's going on. And there's a post you can look to on Chopsticks and why. I've only found one online seller and it's crazy expensive. $89 for 50 packets. What is that per package size? Come on, Matt. Hey, you're in high school. Give me some math. 8950. Do it right now. Do it, do it, do it. 20 grams each. Uh, and that was on uh, Japan goods finder. You got it yet? 89 bucks, 50. Come on. Come on, come on. All right. Reports say that this powder is derived from seaweed. This makes me wonder, can something like carry Jean and solidify oil? I don't think so. Or something else available from modernist pantry, modernistpantry.com. Anyway, so then after this, he writes in, by the way, I answered my own question about the oil solidifiers when I found some at
+
+[13:47] a local Asian grocery store. It's hydroxystheric acid almost certainly with some bulking agent not listed in the ingredient list. I've attached pictures on the front and back of the package, and it looks like you heat the oil to
+
+[13:56] 80 C, then stir in this stuff, and then it thickens as it cools down to 40 C. I used 118 grand packet and about 2 quarts of oil and it got very thick but not quite solid. I guess I need to use more. I still have 2 questions about it. Still Brian from Mipples asking questions about solidifying oil. Any idea about the proper oil to acid ratio to get solidification? No. I can't read Japanese and neither can I. Um, but I could find someone that read Japanese. I have plenty of people that can read Japanese. I, you know, I should take the package to them and see. I'll do that. I'll try to, you know what, the thing is, if I throw the, if I throw it in my backpack, then I'll just have it there. And then when I meet, you know, one of my friends just speaks Japanese. I'll look at them and say, why do I need someone who speaks Japanese and be like, oh,
+
+[14:38] cat American important, and then I'll get this stuff out. anyway. Um, and then uh, finally, I found one chemical supplier that sells smallish quantities of hydroxysteric acid, TCI America, which sells 25
+
+[14:48] grand for 18 bucks. Uh, the product I got was um, uh, was 180 grams for 8 bucks. So it can't be pure hydroxysteric acid based on TCI's pricing. Well, there's his where this is where I disagree with you, my friend. I looked on TCI's website a couple of points before we go on the next thing. I looked at TCI's website and while they do, in fact, sell 25 grams for 18, you got, by the way, you got that 8950 thing? Come on, you're not even looking. I looking at you, you're not even doing the math in here. I can't man. Oh, man. Man. putting all this pressure on you. Oh, jeez. All right. So well, they do, in fact, sell 25 grams for 18 US dollars. They sell 500 grams for $39. It's $1.78. Yeah, stars. Yeah. Yeah, but resourcefulness. She didn't even bring her phone out for that. She did. She did. She has hid it from you. She's so used to hiding the phone for you. trying to make her look good. Yeah. So anyway, so but you can buy 500 grams off the same website for only $39, proving to you one thing that you should know in
+
+[15:48] advance. Any chemical site that will sell to you is going to rip you off major
+
+[15:52] time just for repackaging it. They're selling an order of magnitude more. In fact, an order of magnitude times 2 of the product for a mirror twice as much. So you're just paying for the small quantities there. Another thing I might add. I did a little poking around on this stuff, which I'm not going to attempt to say without looking at it. Hydroxysteric acid. And the thickening power of it depends a lot on what salt it
+
+[16:19] is, right? So remember, it's a fatty, it's an acid, right? And it's usually sold in a salt format. And the lithium salts of it, various lithium salts of it are what is used to make
+
+[16:31] lith grease. Like, you know, like very thick lithium grease. And so who knows whether or not like basically you're making lith grease in your in your house with this, in which case maybe the stuff would be a good lubricant. Don't know. Do I know? I don't know. But I could try to look more into it if I remember, although odds are I won't because odds are I'll forget. Odds are, I'll forget. But maybe one of you out there knows and you can tell me. Call her, you're on the air. Yeah, I had a question. What would be your death row meal, if you could only have one meal, either for you. Well, hopefully for you, Nastasia and Jack. What would be your last meal on Earth and how would you cook it? All right. Well, I'll go a little bit 1st before I say, like, I don't know that I'd be hungry. You know what I mean? I'd be so freaking anxious that I don't know that I'd be
+
+[17:18] that hungry. And here's another thing. Like, if I was in prison on death row, right? I've heard that they don't really like put the energy into it that you would want. You'd be like, you know, you'd be like, all right, I mean, like, you'd be tempted to bust out all the stuff that you never got to eat, right? Be like, uh, what I would like is I would like, um, I would like an Ordolon side by side with, uh, you know, a bubble link, which is like the rice bird, which is
+
+[17:45] traditional. It's illegal to take them now, but like I want one fatted as it flies down and eats the newly planted rice crop in South Carolina on its way down to South America. And I would like a similar passerine migratory bird from
+
+[17:58] China. Uh, you know, the uh, patty swallows that they have over there. I would like them all, roughly at similar points in their migration, similarly fattened, so I can do a side by side comparison on my way out.
+
+[18:08] Like that's what I would want. You know who would end up doing their work for that would be me. You'd be like, oh, man. You know, strangely, I think I said this on the air, but the bobble, like, after 1919, I
+
+[18:20] think was a migratory bird act, you're no longer allowed to shoot birds unless you're specifically allowed to shoot them, right? So they was protected, and it's been protected for a long time,
+
+[18:28] obviously, since 1919, but, you know, almost 100 years. But, uh, you know what kills them now? Like they get killed by the bushel. you know, but you know, by what? They're a ground nesting bird. They get killed by lawnmowers up in the northeast on golf courses because the bird's
+
+[18:42] like, what a great place for a nest. You know what I mean? Yeah, maybe maybe the question is not so much death row, but like if you had one meal, what would it, what would be your, if you could only have one more meal, what would be
+
+[18:56] that, you know, maybe minus the death part? Minus the death. Yeah, well, it would be a boring life afterwards with the no food. I think I would still do some sort of crazy comparison of stuff I couldn't otherwise do. I wouldn't necessarily go for the comfort food because there's no comfort to be had. You know, you're going to have... You're going to have... even if it's not, you're like, hey, well, it's the last meal you're going to have to say, oh, whoa, I want to learn something, you know? And that was Francois Mitteron's last meal, minus the bobble link, because, you know, he's such a freaking French chauvinist, Mitteron, that he was like, eh, I think it was Mitteron. He was just like, uh, it wasn't Degal. It was minor on. And he was, you know, he's like, I only want the French one. Anyway, but so Stas, what would you have? I think I would do caviar with sour cream and Pringles
+
+[19:37] and champagne. You like you like your caviar on a Pringle? Pound it out, Stas. Caviar and a freaking Pringle. I thought she'd be like blinis. No. And she's like, I want my caviar and Pringle. By the way, you know how we're like, we're discussing giving arms to Ukraine? This guy was this guy from the Ukraine? I loved it. Instead of saying night vision goggles on the news. Night Vision Googles, Night Vision Googles. I'm like, I want some Night Vision Google. That'd be sick. That's a sick internet search. Magvision, Google. Jack, what do you got? Mine's weird, but it would be like the best, best, best bread and butter. Yeah, that would be it. Bread and butter is some delicious. We got Peter Kim and Peter, what would your last meal be? I'll give you about 13 seconds to think about it because of money. Fried chicken? I'm done. What kind of fried chicken, dude? That's like saying, I would like to have, I don't know, food. Like, what kind of fried chicken? Like what style? Do you equate fried chicken with food? I'm saying there's a wide range of fried chickens, my man. So what style of fried chicken? Or would you like a panoply of styles of fried chicken? Look at me. What kind of thing? By the way, those of you that might not know. Kim isn't like Kim is a Korean name. Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink says he wants Korean fried chicken, but since he's pulling the race card on me, I'm going to make you say it with the accent... Could he
+
+[20:54] unput a chicken? There you go. Nice. Nice. Nice. Not really nice but there you have it. Anyway, caller, I hope that answered your question. Yeah, I'm just glad to hear like Natasha actually would like something and she gave such a good answer with Pringles and Caviar. No. No, that's classic Nastasia high and low for you. Like, that's classic stars. I did not even know the shit. Actually, I did know you were a fan of the Pringles, because they're basically a potato paste. It's a weird product of Pringle. But she has a big, she has that weird, like, like, smile plus revolt. You know when kids like get themselves into something they know they shouldn't do, but they love it? That's the look stars has on her face when she talks about Pringles. That's good stuff I would have expected Nastasia to do something more like, you know, a baked potato bar or like
+
+[21:37] twice. Have you ever seen her eat a potato? Have you ever seen her eat a baked potato? Yes. Really? Where? We had baked potatoes. That one time when we went to, where was it for the Pats game? Oh, yeah. I like a baked potato. Remember in this? you don't. But in the 70s, man, baked potatoes were like, boom, baked potatoes everywhere. Baked potatoes delicious. Hey, let's take that quick break now. Oh, quick break. coming back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[22:14] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[22:28] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further
+
+[22:36] resource, should you want to get some of the things. about molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show.
+
+[22:48] So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and
+
+[22:53] mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chef, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks.
+
+[23:02] Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place,
+
+[23:08] molecularecipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[23:15] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecularecipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley. And remember to tell them that you love them and that we sent you there, but that you hate the name because you should never call cooking molecular. Am I right? And, you know, listen, we've had this conversation before, so I'm not going to belabor the point or beat a horse that's already dead. But anyway, did we have that discussion about beating a dead horse? Really interesting, interesting idea. You're trying to get more work out of the horse anyway. Beating a dead horse. So anyway, you can still, I still hate it. Everyone knows I hate the word molecular, and I'm allowed to say I hate it, even though they're a sponsor. Anyway, Tyler writes in about high pressure cooking. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Joe. Wow, this is like pulling them all out, Eddie, Carlos, and Indie Jesus. You're missing. Yeah, you're missing some Wyatt, and you're also missing. you're also missing Satan's little helper. Our hipster, hipster, hipster, elf. That name really just keeps going south every time. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. But is he, anyway. He changed his look after Christmas, I noticed. He's not quite so elfin anymore. I've recently become interested in high-pressure cooking, i.e. above the standard 15 PSI of a pressure
+
+[24:31] cooker, and the my art and caramelization reactions that occur therein. I thought it would be interesting to see which compounds are created and if it would lead to a super flavorful product. I remember your post on the blog about Mayard pipe potatoes and was hoping you could expand on what you thought about this process. You seem to come to the conclusion that no matter what the treatment or substrate used, the product was disgusting. My question is, do you think that this process, by high pressure, um, produces uniquely different compounds, uh, of the 2 browning reactions due to the presence of water, or do you think that the acrid smell is based purely on the concentration of these
+
+[25:05] compounds? Also, I've been looking for information on this process and the literature and unable to find anything good. Can you recommend some articles into our books on the subject of high pressure cooking? Love the show, keep up the good work. Thanks, Tyler, from UC Davis. Class of 2016. Um, I don't have any scholarly articles on it. Um, you know, from what I do know, is that, you know, my art in particular is extremely complicated, and that the, uh, you know, the end products of uh, the Mayard reactions are like, you know, a shotgun spray of different, um, different
+
+[25:36] things, and that the, the flavor, an aroma of them is wildly dependent
+
+[25:41] on uh, the temperature, the pressure, uh, the, you know,
+
+[25:46] the precursors that are there, uh, and probably also, you know, what the moisture level is.
+
+[25:51] So basically everything that can, that can be a factor is, and that some of the things are delicious, like
+
+[25:58] bread and brown and delicious. And some of them are just awful crap. And I don't think that it's merely a concentration. I think it's probably different compounds being produced under
+
+[26:09] different conditions, but I don't have any scholarly articles to back that up. What I did was I took a pipe, and I put liquid and food, and I did some without extra liquid, just using their own moisture, and I did potatoes. I did a variety of meats. I did some other veg. I think I might have done beans or something like this. And I sealed them in a pipe, and then I threw the pipe into a deep fryer. Don't do this. Please don't do this. Uh, you know, especially uh, Matt from Chicago's daughter. Please don't do this And so the deep fryer is away for me to stably get the temperature up without overheating it,
+
+[26:51] right? Because if I, if I was trying to control the pressure some other, there's a very, you know, strict relationship between the internal pressure and the temperature on the outside, assuming that it's sealed.
+
+[27:00] So by throwing it in the deep fryer, I could get a very constant temperature and pressure on the inside. So I was pulling like 150 PSI or thereabouts at like 300 and change degrees, Fahrenheit, and then pull it out, and the potatoes were completely brown all the way through, and were the most putrid potatoes I've ever put in my mouth,
+
+[27:19] ditto with the meats, putrid, putrid, putrid. And someone said, well, maybe it's the, maybe you're getting some medals off the pipe. So I tried stainless. I tried copper. I tried aluminum, all putrid. I was never able to get any kind of good thing that didn't taste incredibly awful out of it. The only time I've done kind of ultra high pressure cooking. Uh, so, so then another, like another pressure thing, I've cooked in regular pressure cookers up to about 30 PSI by modifying
+
+[27:49] them. Don't do this. Please don't do this. And then testing, you know, the stock. And it turns out that 15 PSI tasted better than like 25 PSI did for
+
+[28:00] stock. So there's definitely a shift in the flavor of what's going on as the pressure increases or
+
+[28:06] decreases. And we noticed kind of a, you know, a spike in the
+
+[28:10] Hadonic curve for at least stock around 15 PSI
+
+[28:16] thereabouts and, you know, worse below and and not as good above either. Now that said, I have cooked some things at higher pressure. I did a thing called Desk Nachos for First Week Feast. And I very unsafely raised the pressure
+
+[28:33] inside. Did I do that with the seers all or a regular torch? I think I might have, but I might have a regular, whatever anyway, I think I might use a regular torch on it. I took an EC and then shoved a thermometer into it to
+
+[28:43] test and make sure I wasn't getting it too hot. And I did beans in there. And I think I was probably pulling something close to 3540 PSI or higher in it. And they tasted good. The beans tasted good. Anyways. So it's possible to do things at higher pressure, but, you know, I didn't do that in a controlled way, and I would never recommend somebody do what I did for those desk nachos. And the guy next to me, I think, wanted to kill us because of like the danger involved. But it's not going to blow. Those EC things are constructed. So, well, definitely don't do it with an off-market whipper. Anyways, so check it out. Uh, yeah, yeah. Alex writes in about one. Hello, Nastasi Jack, and Dave. You know, let's take this caller real quick. Oh, call her, you're on the air. Hi, actually, this is Alex who wrote in about London. You're totally different question. All right, what's up? First off, thank you so much for the show. I enjoyed immensely. Secondly, I get to go to New York for the 1st time in my life at the end of the month. And everybody that I ask about what to do in New York, where to go in New York, what the, you know, not necessarily the greatest hits album, but like
+
+[29:48] the good mixtape compilation. Um, they don't really get like food and drink and stuff like that. So besides Booker index. I want to end up at TGI Fridays in Times Square because my mother-in-law likes it a lot. Um, where? No, again, not the greatest hits, but once a good, well-rounded, like things I don't want to miss while I'm there, or that just kind of, you should get pizza, you should get a bagel, you should
+
+[30:11] get what? Right. Okay. So where, where, so where are you from? Santa Barbara. Okay. And is your mother-in-law coming with you? Not at all Okay. Okay, well, you're in luck that we have Peter Kim here today because Peter Kim, as you might know, is the director,
+
+[30:30] so what is, associate? What is it? President, head of the Museum of Food and Drink, Emperor? Galactic Emperor. And he's been actually spending a lot of time. So the thing is like, what do you want to do? So, you know, Peter could make up and has made up lists of, you know, really interesting trips into, for instance,
+
+[30:47] Queens to do some of like the kind of hardcore ethnic enclaves that we have here. that's super interesting. And, you know, he could run down, you know, a list of that stuff. But if, you know, or you could try kind of higher, higher end New York centric kind
+
+[31:02] of things for bagels. I mean, look, if you if I were to tell you one bagel place, then like all the other bagel people would shoot me in the face for picking that bagel place. Right. Well, I happen to, like, it's down in my neighborhood. They just changed hands recently, and their style, I noticed, changed a little bit the last time I was there, was Cosars. The cosars is right near me. I like cosars a lot. And right near Cosars actually are like the pickle guys. You can get the real kind of lower east side feeling, but hands down, like without, like without any sort
+
+[31:35] of, go to Russ and Daughters and and get their, um, try the Norwegian,
+
+[31:41] because let me tell you something. Like, if you go out and you get, um, smoked cured salmon, right? So Nova locks, or it's, you know, it's equivalent, and you get it pre-packed, and you've never had someone hand
+
+[31:53] slice like a super high quality version of it, then you haven't, you haven't had it. You know what I mean? And it's expensive, but by far and away, Russian Daughters has the best sliced salmon I've ever had in my
+
+[32:06] life and they slice it for you. In particular, I would try their, uh, if they have the Baltic, I would get the Baltic, but it's very rare to have it
+
+[32:13] there, and the Norwegian king is delicious, they're all delicious. They'll give you a little taste of each one. And their cream cheese, they're playing cream cheese is an unstabilized cream cheese. It's a little bit grainy, but I find it doesn't keep, so you're not going to take it home with you, but it's just, I think, incomparably delicious to any other cream cheese I've had.
+
+[32:31] I don't know who makes their bagels. They're okay. And they also have the older Union style bagels. But cosars bagels are good. With a bagel, you want to know, like, am I going for, like, do you like a doughier, like, S style that's kind of puffier and doughier? Do you like, like a harder style or like, you know, like a thinner, like a, like an H and H style? Uh, I used to, like, I used to live up near Columbia, you know, uptown, and they had both styles in kind of, um, you know, they had an absolute up
+
+[32:59] there, and they had, uh, Columbia bagels, which were kind of like diametrically opposed styles because, you know, the guys up at Absolute were, were from Esa. Um, they, you know, they had apprenticed it all at Esa. But you should have an S, but who else has the good bagels now, like Peter, who else is known for bagels? But, like, S style is a style of bagel. But yeah, there's that trendy spot on the lower East Side. What it called? black seed or something like that. I haven't been. I heard it. I mean, it's popular. Anyway, but you know what? if you want traditional Russian we're going to go to Russian Daughters. If you want like an old school, Italian store, uh, with super high quality stuff, go
+
+[33:34] to Apollos on grand, it's also, but, you know, budget time in either of these places, unless you go off, you know, off time, like go in the
+
+[33:41] mid-afternoon when there's not a lot of people. Otherwise, you're going to be there for like forever in a day. Um, you know, then if you want to see, I mean, the problem is there's like so many like places have cropped up,
+
+[33:50] but when I was a kid, like I used to love going to Dean and DeLuca's because you couldn't, you couldn't see it anywhere else, but now you can get this kind of market kind of more often in other
+
+[33:57] places. You know, uh, or like uptowns, you know, Zabar's used to be a mecca for, you know, in
+
+[34:03] the in the 80s for people going. you know, I haven't been in many years. Italy would be good on a quick trip, right? I can't stand the crowds. I'm sure it's like, the crowds make me want to make me want to stab myself like repeatedly. Well, Dave just generally wants to stab himself repeatedly so that doesn't mean much. Yeah. And then, you know, in the bars, like a bar crawl here, like you can do an intense bar crawl and I'm like, I'm not going to mention any because then I'll insult the rest,
+
+[34:28] but, uh, you know, uh, you know, but, you know, there's like so many, uh, famous bars, all actually, like you can even just stay in the neighborhood of Brooklyn Dex. you like, uh, McSor leaves. Oh, McSorley's, you can go to go to McSorley's. Go to McSorley's before the frat douches show up. So go like, am I allowed to say that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's not too offensive, right? not offensive. All right. You know, we have kids that listen to the showcase. right. So I apologize. Maybe we can bleep that on the thing going out. But anyway, so my point is, is that you want to go there early. And they have the greatest urinals ever. Like, so I detest public restrooms. I hate them with a passion, but they're actually okay. But you get the get the cheese plate, which is basically a sleeve of saltines, onions, the world's spiciest
+
+[35:20] mustard. Don't overdo it. I've actually burnt my tongue on their mustard by overconsuming. And I say, raw onions, cheddar, or their liverwurst sandwich, well-known. And like 2
+
+[35:28] pints. It used to be 2 pints, like 2 bucks or 250 back when I was in college, but it's probably like 350 now, and they're not real pints. They're short pints. But you see, I remember once I went in there in the in the early 90s or maybe like 1990. right after I turned 21 So 92 maybe. Anyway, and I said, I was like, what are you? I was like, what kind of beer do you have? And he goes, we have McSorley's and more McSorley's because that's all they have. dark and light. Yeah, dark and light. And they served all through prohibition and no one else, no one messed with them. So that's old school New York. Um, what else, Peter? do you got? I mean, in general, as Dave said, I think my favorite way to eat in the city is really visiting the ethnic
+
+[36:09] enclaves. And if there's one train line you had to pick, I'd say the 7 train out to Queens. It's pretty amazing what you can find on there. You can pretty much get off anywhere and you can have, you can find everything from, you know, Thailand,
+
+[36:20] uh, you know, food from Thai food, uh, Nepali, uh, you know, mainland China, uh, you know, they're like, I think the best Korean stuff is also out in Flushing. You can find incredible Colombian Peruvian, Venezuelan. It's all on this train, and it's kind of amazing. And, you know, if you look up, you can reach out to me, actually, if you want, but also, you know, if you look online, you know, there are a lot of people who've put together great, you know,
+
+[36:45] like tasting guys. Seats has got a few good. Yeah, seats of that's a good guy to look at, if you're interested in that. But that's just one slice of it. And I mean, I think that's one of the most incredible things about the city is that you can go and get off a train somewhere and it's just like, you know, you're in another country.
+
+[37:00] Like, you walk into markets and you don't recognize any of the products, you're going into these places. People don't necessarily speak English. And, uh, yeah, and, you know, it's sort of a hybrid cuisine that's been created in New York City. Right. And if you want to break the bank, you know, like pick one, like, pick one of the super high ends to go to because they're they're fun to do,
+
+[37:19] like kind of, you know, once, like, I don't know, go to, it depends on what style you want. Like, you know, you go to, you know, Mark's place, you know, Del Posto, if you want the high-end Italian or, you know, JG is a great place to
+
+[37:30] go. And then you have, like, you know, all the awesome. Oh, you go to Contra, which is a really interesting place. Fabulous, like, uh, and Jeremiah, like who I used to work with, that's their place. Or, like, you know, uh, Stupax, uh, Empeyon Casino,
+
+[37:43] Wiley has Alder, which you can't go to WD anymore, but you can go, uh, there. Those are all in kind of a concentrated neighborhood as well. But there's a bajillion, good places to go. There's also Olive Garden. Oh, yeah. those breadsticks and salad? Did you know that those breadsticks are unlimited? Yes. Without limit. I know. That's why you have to go. Yeah. But I have one of those here. There you go. It's not the same. It's not the same. Like Olive Garden in Times Square is incomparable. It's like the Chevy's Fresh Mex is so much more Chevy in Times Square. I'm kidding Don't ever eat. I'm kidding. Don't ever don't ever don't ever go. It's not don't ever go. I'm not saying that, but, you know, remember the freakingomics book basically saying it's impossible to get good food in those kind of locations because it's not possible.
+
+[38:32] It doesn't make economic sense for them to make good food in those in those locations. Um, I'll tell you something that's not so good is, and I'm embarrassed to say it, is that the standard New York City street pretzel is useless.
+
+[38:45] Yeah horrible. Yeah, agree. Like, the idea of it is fantastic. they can be delicious, but they're always just a horrifying mess. Oh, oh, I have to just put this in there because this is probably for me, one of my favorite ways to eat in New York is going to Coney Island. if you're coming in the summer and getting Nathan's dog and sitting on the beach and eating it. I'll tell you what, Coney Island is awesome in the crazy winter too, because there's no one there but the dude who has no teeth and the one dude dragging his limbs, you know what I mean? But yeah, that's true. But I mean, I think I think Coney Island is one of my favorite destinations in New York City. And you can hit some of the cool Russian neighborhoods outside of that where you can, you know... Does Uzbek Korean food? For real? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there were Koreans that were forcibly moved into Uzbekistan by Stalin. And I guess they're, they, they fused Korean cuisine with his Becky cuisine. And so there's a restaurant called at your mother-in-law's. And, uh, and it's at, uh, in Brighton Beach. So near Coney Island. You know that there's Italian slang word that translates to your mother-in-law's pillow that's the chestnut sold in the case with the
+
+[39:45] spikes. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, all right, they're going to kick us off here. Yeah, we have one more caller. Do you want to try to squeeze it in? It's up to you, brother. Yeah, we can do it. All right. Call her again. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, David, it's Andy from Chicago. How it going? Hey, all right, what's up? Not too much. One quick thing. M. Wells at the PS one in Long Island City is a great spot for New York dining. Real rich, heavy, good place for lunch or brunch, something like that. Nice. Good call. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I'm renovating my kitchen. I was thinking I was thinking about going with a foot pedal faucet, but I've started to see those sort of electronic touch ones. No, no, no, you know, where you just kind of bump them. What are your thoughts? How hard is it to retrofit? Do I need to plan for a foot pedal ahead of time? I would plan temperature control on both? I would plan. There's a couple different ways you can go with foot pedals. I've never gone with a full temperature control. I've just gone with a dual pedal situation. There are ones where you can set like a mixing valve and then use a single pedal to press
+
+[40:46] the mix out and that's probably what I would do in a bathroom. If I was going to put, which, by the way, I am, going to put foot pedals in the next bathroom that I
+
+[40:55] do. I'll probably just have a central mix and not even have the ability to turn it on with your hands because there's no reason to leave a bathroom faucet running. There's no freaking reason to leave a bath and faucet running. Unlike a kitchen where you might want to leave it running for like a pot or a pan or something like this. But in a kitchen, typically what you're going to want to do, I would stay away from the electronics, it's just something that can fail, and it's like, you know, you don't want
+
+[41:17] to, you ever been in an airport and you put your hand under the thing and you're like, go, go, go, go. You know what I'm saying? I hate that more than anything. I'm like, I just want water now. And then like, you know how you pull your hand out? And as soon as you put your hand out, the freaking thing comes on. How many times has this happened to you? Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I hate it. I mean, I'm not talking like a sensor one. There's one that kind of works like the old touchlamp, so you literally just tap the faucet with your forearm or wrist or something that's not
+
+[41:43] contaminated, it turns on. No touch, no touch. Here's what you're going to do. So what you want to do, are you going to go deck mounted or wall mounted on the faucet? Probably deck mounted. Deck mounted. Okay. If you don't mind stuff that looks a little bit commercial and I don't is
+
+[41:57] go. I mean, TNS brass, make some nice stuff, and I use, I use almost exclusively TNS brass when I buy just because I'm used to using it for a long time.
+
+[42:06] Um, and you want a, you, they sell some uh, faucets and you can look around, you can buy things that are individual. The key thing is that you need to have separate control over, you need to have a
+
+[42:20] T that goes into the central spout, right? So the main problem with retrofitting a foot pedal onto a faucet is that in general, it goes directly from the 2 hand valves right into the main spout. But there are some that don't. There are some that are just sold separately, right? So you buy the spout and then you buy the mixing valves separately. And in those situations, it's very simple to put a T, and then with check valves, you don't want any back, you know, flushing of stuff, you put the foot pedals on. Super simple. And that's what I did in my last place. I had a faucet and a spout separately and I just mounted the stuff all separately. The other alternative is, is that some systems that have sprayers attached to them, you can disassemble the sprayer before the little
+
+[43:08] flat valve that, um, well, actually, can you? Well, the one I have, you can run both the faucet and the sprayer at the same time. So you don't have to worry about whether or not it shuts off the stuff. And for that one, you just throw a t in between and put the, you know, put the input, the output of the of the foot pedals directly to it with speedy, you know, with with steel, you know, stainless steel braided flex lines and check
+
+[43:31] valves and you're good to go. And so it's all dependent upon buying the right stuff. But if you go through TNS brass, everything's modular with TNS brass. And I don't know whether it's still the case, but K-Tom, which is somewhere in the South, and they
+
+[43:43] go to Florida, usually has pretty good rates on TNS brass, and they'll
+
+[43:47] get, even if they don't carry it, they'll get it for you. It's a pain because you got to call them and get the right part numbers for it. But I used to buy all my TNS brass off of eBay because people were doing renovations and then they had extra faucets and then they're free, you know,
+
+[44:00] not free, but, you know, almost free. Yeah, cool. All right, I'll check it all out. App appreciate the advice. All right, thank you. All right, listen, I got a lot of questions I didn't get to, Jack, maybe we were going to have to do another catch up, right? Like Max from Sweden who wants to know about building his outdoor barbecue, but there's going to be a lot more on that as I build my own in the coming season.
+
+[44:18] And then the one thing I will do on the way out because it's time sensitive very quickly is, where are you? Ryan writes in, hey, I managed to score a sweet deal on a 10 kilogram leg of pork yesterday, bone in, skin
+
+[44:32] on, 20 bucks, and then realize I have no idea what to do with it. I'm assuming a brine of some sort is in order, followed by a trip to the oven or barbecue, but again, no idea. I'd appreciate any tips or advice. You can throw my way. Listen. Don't bother with anything complicated. If you don't have a lot of time. Like, I cook one of those in like, in like 13 freaking, like, well, not 13 seconds, but you just take off, take off the skin, chop it up,
+
+[44:52] like hack the meat up into, you know, relatively small pieces, break the bone at the knuckle point, throw it in, pressure cook that sucker, make pork chili, pull it
+
+[45:00] out. You can pull out the skins afterwards because they're all gelatinous, chop them up real fine, chop up the meat real fine, and make pork chili. Pork chili. What do you think? Pork chili? Yep. Yeah. Pork chili. Pork chili. What's your favorite bands too? Ah, next time. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[45:29] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a...
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecular recipes.com, the world's number one source for molecular gastronomy recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:07] ingredients, and tools. Hi, this is Celia Kutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more. Cooking is too...
+
+[0:52] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Entries. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking issues coming to you live. What is that? What is that? I like it, though. What is that? Ah. Ah, yay. Cheese, cheese. cheese. That's a nice cheese name. It's a good cheese song, right? Yeah, is that is that yours? Whose is that? No, it's this, we do cutting the curd and every once a month we do a book review with Diane Stemple, and that's her theme song that her friend made for
+
+[1:31] her. Yeah, let's hear a little bit more cheese. That was it, but we can we can start it from the beginning. Yeah, let's go from the beginning. Jeez. Jeez. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. It's very, like, it's very, like, early 80s, like, you know... Well, it's but like that early 80s, like the cheese is like never like on the same beat. It's never on the one. It's never, you know, it's just cheese. It's cheese. You know what I mean? Cheese. Jeez. Call your questions, 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128 coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizzeria in Brushwick. Brooklyn right? Joined as usual in the studio with the Stasi Hammer Lopez in the engineering booth with Jack Ainsley and Wide. How you guys doing? We are good Yeah, and we got we got a special guest in the uh, in the radio, uh, in the radio studio today and introduce your, Oh, getting a little buzz there on the phones, Jack. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what you do? Sure, I'm Corey from Little Bird Chocolates, and we make
+
+[2:39] fire bites, which are chocolate cupboard candied jalapenos. Nice. And they're a supporter of the museum. They gave, they had their stuff in the gift bag at our, what's it called? What's that thing called? Puffing gum? No, no, no. It wasn't a puffing gun. It was the it was our main event. It's the main benefit that we do every year. That thing's coming up when in May? Oh, no. What is it, May? don't know. I don't know. I think it's in May. I not sure though. You'll be hearing about it. Peter, Peter, I think he's coming. Today? Again, yes. Yeah. Well, Peter came from the Museum of Food and Drink will come on and we'll talk about that. So why don't you explain what you got here. Sure. So we have our most popular trade is a dark chocolate covered fire bikes, candied jalapeno covered in dark chocolate with just a touch of sea salt. We do them in dark chocolate, milk chocolate, white chocolate, and then we have
+
+[3:25] fire bark, where we take jalapenos, we grind them down, add it to the chocolate, with touches sea salt. So it's just a little consistency different and the heat hits you differently on that one. Yeah, let's go dark. I mean, let's break open the dark. Right, stars? Does the milk soften it a little bit or no, within the milk or no? You would think, but it actually, I think the most
+
+[3:48] popular or the spiciest is actually the white chocolate, which is sort of counterintuitive, you'd think it's just
+
+[3:55] sweet, and the cocoa butter sort of coats your tongue and doesn't let the heat go.
+
+[4:00] Right, that doesn't let the heat go. Write that down. That's a is that an album or a song? Doesn't let the heat go? Sounds like more of a song. Well, the last band name the stars and I had that we were going to, it's kicking in now. The last band name the Stas and I were going to do was secretly awesome. Remember that? What was the album we're going to have on that? Oh, um, Mother's 2nd. What? It was like Mother's 2nd family or something. A 2nd family. 2nd family. 2nd family. Second family by secretly awesome. That was our. yeah, yeah. That, you know, what was the band name? What was the song we just came up with, though? We just had a song name like 3 minutes ago. Oh my god, someday we'll write this down. I got a song name. What do you got? Call her on line one. Ooh. All right, let me try some white chocolate while I listen to the question from collar one. Call her, call her. on the air. Hey, how are you guys doing? It's Antoine from Bocler, Florida. How you doing? How's the weather down there in Florida? It's actually better than what you guys are right now. Well it wouldn't be hard. Yeah, at least we're not in Boston, huh? Boom, boom, Boston. Take that. Like, what are they, like, 18 feet of snow or some crazy thing over there? Crazy. All right. So what do you got for us? This is a few times where Bo is actually nice. We're showing you. Nice, nice. So what do you got for us? Yeah, I have 2 questions. My 1st one's a little simpler. I'm doing essential oils inside of water. I wanted to make a citrus water. The only problem is that the oil is always separate. And so I was gonna use either poly sorbet, to help find a way to emulsify it, but I have to be
+
+[5:29] water. Uh, or, uh, I was going to perhaps freeze it, and then have the oil separate the top. I just want to know if you had any recommendations for that one and add another question. Wait, what's the final application? What's going on? Uh, I just want to make um, carbonated uh, citrus water, essentially. Oh, yeah. with essential oils, but the essential oil always rises to the
+
+[5:58] top and separates. Yeah, so what you need is gum Arabic. Yeah. It doesn't have to be shelf stable, right? Just has to be stable for a little bit of time. Uh, you know, a few days or so. Hmm. Okay. So gum Arabic is what people typically use for this, when you're doing citrus oils, everyone used to use what's called
+
+[6:21] brominated vegetable oil. And what it is, is it's an oil that you mix with the, uh, with the, um, no one, people don't use it anymore, but
+
+[6:30] it's, you mix it with the citrus oils and it averages the density out because the brominated oil is heavier than water and the citrus oil is lighter than
+
+[6:38] water. And when you add them together, they try to get the density relatively similar to the finished beverage.
+
+[6:43] In this way, when you add like the their emulsifier, and the reason they use Arabic is because, A,
+
+[6:51] it, it, it, you know, is a decent emulsifier, it also doesn't increase the viscosity very much, and it also dilutes quite well, which means that it doesn't mess up carbonated beverages.
+
+[7:00] Um, so, you know, you would use like Arabic and a brominated vegetable, they have a, um, they have a replacement now for brominated vegetable oil because, uh, I don't know whether it's actually bad for you or
+
+[7:13] there's theoretically bad for you. I don't know. I don't know. Um, But by the way, I've just, like, rounded into a nice, like, the
+
+[7:20] comelo, like, constant heat in the back of my mouth due to the jalapeno. Anyway, so, um, so you could try in Arabic, like, uh, you know,
+
+[7:27] there, the problem with the stuff that I use typically for emulsifying is it has like a bodying agent in it, like
+
+[7:33] Xanthan, and that's going to be a nightmare when you carbonate, complete nightmare. So you could try Arabic. Um, I had just recently looked up um, what to use in place of uh, brominated vegetable oil, but I forget, I forget what it, what it was. But, you know, Arabic by itself should be able to keep it for at least a little while, and then you might have to, might have to shake it back together. But you might want to, might want to give that a, give that a shot. What did you do? What about the application of poly sorbet? Uh, like the regular, like, like 80 or 60? I don't really know, like, um, I've never really used that stuff in, uh, in a in a beverage application. I don't know. Like, what, what, what would be the, um, why would you use that instead of like an Arabic or something? I don't know. That's just initially what I was thinking. I just wanted to emulsify it. I didn't want to have any taste. Right, have you? Yeah, well, remember, like, you know, you want to get like a, you know, a fairly, you know, a
+
+[8:32] nice clean Arabic, not like, you know, the ones in rocks, get the powdered stuff that's meant for food grade. That stuff is good. But did you, did someone else like uh, somewhere publish a recipe using uh, one of the uh, poly
+
+[8:44] sorbets, like 60 or 80 in this kind of an application? Because I wouldn't like jump at something like that right away for this app. No, I, I, uh, I was just doing my own research and that was something that I kind of fell
+
+[8:56] on to. Yeah, I would check out Arabic, like Arabic is the classic, like, soda system. It's like really clean in terms of people that don't have bad feelings about it except for, you know, the possibility that if you're sourcing it improperly, you're supporting terror, but, you know,
+
+[9:10] as an actual product, they don't have bad feelings about it. And I think, I think the whole, I think the terror Arabic might be over. Like, I think the gum acacia, like, you know, source from murderers might be a thing of like more like 10 years
+
+[9:23] ago as opposed to now, although I'm saying that, and I don't know. But my feeling is that I haven't had anyone call me a supporter of murder recently for using
+
+[9:33] gum Arabic. But, you know, it probably merits more research. But I would look at that 1st and see what's happening. And then I would look up on the internet. brominated vegetable oil or BVOs. I would look up BVO replacements, and all the big folks like Pepsi and Coke, and those guys are shifting away from using BVOs, and classically, they would be found in things like in cloudy carbonated drinks.
+
+[10:03] So, Sunkist or Mountain Dew, you know, which is kind of, you know, when Moses came
+
+[10:10] down. One of the things that, you know, he brought was Mountain Dew. That stuff is, you know, we've had actually a lot of Mountain Dew questions on
+
+[10:16] this, on the air, like Mountain Dew. Do you like Mountain Dew Jack? Sorry, late to the mic here. You know, I did when I was like in junior high maybe. Junior high. Yeah, you were caffeine pushing early, my friend. Early, yeah. God, I don't think I've had a Mountain Dew in probably over a decade. I'm pretty sure that I would not have made it through college without Diet Mountain Dew. I case after case. Every spring, I used to drive from Connecticut to Sarasota, like and I wouldn't stop. So that's about 24 hours, you know, with a 20 year old drive. It's about 24 hours. And, uh, it was just, uh, like, you know, a bunch of boxes of pretzels, cases of diet
+
+[10:57] due, and easy cheese. And that's what got you down. And, and like you leveled yourself out. Strangely, prunes also in the car. Now you'd think that this would be a mistake. You'd think this would be a mistake, but with the sitting, with the sitting and all of the pretzels and easy cheese, you're so clogged up to even feel regular, the prunes actually help level you
+
+[11:16] out. It's kind of like, you know, a multi-system. So that would be the thing. We would just load the back of the car up with the diet cases of diet due, and that was it. Just go, go. You know what I mean? Yeah, good times. Good times. All right, what was your 2nd question? But I got to hurry because I got a 1000000000 questions from last week that they're going to kill me if I don't get to. Sure. No problem. So I have a friend that's really into the whole bone box right now. I'm not really into it all. The whole what? The phone broth? Oh, mean, okay. Go ahead. Um, and she just wants to make like a beef one and I'm, I'm kind of bored with it, but what I wanted to do was add a frost to it, so I could make it somewhat like a
+
+[11:56] cappuccino, so she has them in the morning. So the only stipulation is that it has to be beast gelatin,
+
+[12:03] and then I don't know what percentage of gelatin, fat, and liquid to put in there to make a sort of broth for the cappuccino on
+
+[12:12] that. Wait, so a cappuccino textured froth. Yes. Right, with like an emulsified, cloudy broth situation. Huh. So, hmm. Well, let me think here. So how would I do that? Huh. Thinking, I was thinking of perhaps making the broth independently and then getting an ISI, um, and filling it with some percentage of fat,
+
+[12:48] gelatin, and then maybe some of the stock, and then putting that froth on there. Yeah, I mean, that'll definitely, definitely work, or you could, you know, you could make a fluid gel out of the stock, uh, like, you know, and then, uh, just, you know, add
+
+[13:02] hot, some, uh, like emulsified fat and spray to spray the thing out and it'll stay forever, you know, basically. Uh, you know, if you do like a geland fluid gel, it'll just stay and stay and stay.
+
+[13:15] Uh, or you could, um, uh, whip it. But I'm trying to remember like what I would do to... I mean, you could, you don't have a, like a homogenizer. We can't make like a cream out of it. Um, yeah, I mean, like any, like any one of those tactics would work. I mean, I would just go. I'm sure like, I'm sure, you know, Kaimos has ripped somebody's recipe for like, uh, foam, you know, some sort of like beef, fat foam, uh, and
+
+[13:40] and then used it. Or, you know, you could just do, you could make a really hyper, if it has to be beef fat, that's one thing, but like the easiest thing would just be to go with butter fat, like use a
+
+[13:51] cream and then do reinforce a cream with a very, very concentrated beef stock. Um, super concentrated beef stock, reinforced cream. And if you get the temperature of that right. The problem is, is if you heat any of those things, you're going to break them down. So, I mean, I'm assuming if you want like a cold foam, if you want a hot foam, I would definitely move to something more that would
+
+[14:12] stabilize with something that's not going to melt out when it gets hot, right? So you're not going to do a hot foam with cream base, you're not going to do a hot foam with a beef fat
+
+[14:19] base, unless it's stabilized with something that's, you know, you're not going to use the beef fat as a
+
+[14:23] stabilizer is what I'm trying to say at a hot temperature. And you're talking hot, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think you're definitely going to want to go to something like a fluid gel or because you want something denser, right? You don't want it like that light, that light, airy, like, uh, that
+
+[14:39] light airy kind of, like, less thinny stuff, right? You want more of a hardcore. Yeah, I want like a frost pretty much, like something that will sit on it for a while and then, you know, perhaps dissipate in the way that a cappuccino eventually does.
+
+[14:52] Yeah. So you, you know, I would use, I would, I would use, you can add a lot of gelatin as a, as a bodying agent and
+
+[14:58] then like take a hardcore, uh, like fluid gel and put it in as a stabilizer, just get the flavor where you want
+
+[15:04] it. You could probably add the melted beef fat to it and whisk it together. It probably stay and then foam up. it'll probably last I would guess. But like having not actually done that application myself because, as you know, I've stayed away from foam toppings in general in my own practice, just, you know, other than when I teach hydrocolloid classes, but, you know, that was years ago because, uh, it's just, you know, I
+
+[15:26] stay, I stay away from it just because, um, you know, I've, I've had so many dealings with it. But that should work. Okay, cool. And about what percentage would you use to gel in? Oh, well, if you're going to use gelam. You might get a weird reaction. Actually, you know you won't. Gel and gelatin work great together. That's how Wiley's deep fried mayonnaise and works. I mean, you don't need a lot of, you know, you can get a really, really, it depends on how stiff you want your fluid gel and how much you're going to add
+
+[15:55] liquid back to it. So if you're going to add a lot of liquid back to it, so you need a relatively stiff fluid gel, then you're going to go high. And by high, I mean, like half a percent, which is really high. Um, You know, if it's going to be the whole thing is going to be a fluid gel on its own, then you could go down to like, you know, a quarter of a percent or something like this.
+
+[16:13] But, uh, you know, go start high, start like at uh, at like a half a percent or if you're going to add a lot of liquid to it, even higher, like, you know, eight tenths of a percent or something like that. And then when you dope it back, it'll be, um, also Agar will work nicely if it's not going to be too hot and then it's easier, but Agar might have some weird reactions with gel. Agar and gelatin, especially if the gelatin's really concentrated or breakdown, can have weird reactions where you get little like grittiness to it, which is unpleasant.
+
+[16:36] So then, you know, in that case, you want to use the gel M. Excellent. Thank you very much man. All right, good luck. Let us know how it works. All righty. So, Dave, I have one more caller that's been patiently waiting. Alright, alrighty. Here we go. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, hey, man, this is Scott from Florida. I had a question. I'm curious about your opinions on any of the circulators under the $400 range.
+
+[17:00] There's a ton of them out there now. Um, I just can't justify doing like the $800, you know, poly-science just because of, you know, $800. But, um, I, I'm not in the position to make my own, but there's a ton of
+
+[17:15] a model that are like under 400 bucks. I even looked at like the newer poly-science ones that they label for home use. The problem is that some of them are under like 750 watts. So I don't even think that would be worth considering. Do you have an opinion on any of those? Well, what are the wantages of that? I mean, most of the, I mean, the old school poly size, right? is a 1000 watts of heating. Uh, right? That's right. Yeah, 1000 watts of heating. And which ones are under 750 watts? I think they've got a new one now that they're marketing like for home people. It's like a funky yellow color. I think it's creative series or discovery. I have no idea. One of those two, but it was like 750 watts, and every one of their other ones was a 1000 watts, like the Nomico was, you know, a 1000, so was the
+
+[18:04] Anova, all that stuff for like home use, most of them were over a 1000 lots. So, well, well, you got to remember, there's there's 2 ratings you have to look at. There's how many watts is the is the full unit? In other words, how much is it going to suck out of your wall? And then what's the actual wattage of the heating element? And it's the watt edge of the heating element? Because they're all basically the same heating style of elements. So like you're not going to get one that's drastically more efficient than another, so you don't really have to worry about it. You can pretty much match watts with watts. It's not like trying to compare, you know, an induction stove to a, you know, a, a resistive element stove where it's a
+
+[18:39] range rather, where it's like, you know, you can't compare them. So, um, the, you know, a lower wattage unit is just going to start sucking wind when you start doing more products. So the question you have to ask yourself is if you know right now that you're never going to cook more than 30 eggs at a time, you know, then you can go with a lower
+
+[18:58] wattage. If you know that you're never going to, uh, you know, cook, uh, a full
+
+[19:05] Lexand's worth of stuff, yeah, maybe you can go with a lower wattage. I mean, for me, I, you know, I like having the full 1000 watts. In fact, like, you know, I often ask, I would often wish for more power because I usually push things to the edge of their envelope. Now, when it comes to, you know, spending the money, like the truth is, is that, you know, my, in a lot of ways, my favorite is still the old metal
+
+[19:33] one, just because they're like, so they're so tough. And then my 2nd favorite is probably the, you know, the $800 plastic
+
+[19:40] one, which has a lot of advantages like smaller in the bath space. I've used, um, I've used uh, 2 or 3 of the, um, of kind of
+
+[19:48] the the newer style of ones, including uh, polysciences. I've used the Nomiku. have used the sand sair, and I've used the a nova. Which one do you have, Peter? Which one do you have? Circulator? Yeah. Oh, it's the one that was on Kickstarter. It's like half the Kickstarter. Anyway. They've all been on, yeah, yeah. Useless information. Peter came from the museum, just showed up with some useless information. Anyway, so I've used them all. And the good news is, is that they all pretty much hold the temperature. So they're all a valid way to start using these techniques at home. You know, the, where you, um, where you lose in some of the things is kind of like the the fit and finish. So for $200, it's very hard to make something that's going to be as robust as an $800
+
+[20:35] one. You know what I mean? So it's just more apt to break apart. And some of the cheaper ones actually have like fairly nice interfaces, but sometimes they're a little more touchy or like parts will fall off of them while you're using them or they don't like pushing oil as opposed to water, you
+
+[20:51] know? So, but these are all specialist kind of things. And so I would think that, you know, I would, you know, I would look at the specs on the lower, uh,
+
+[20:57] lottage ones, I would get, like, a certain, an advantage. So a lower wattage one, if it's a smaller profile, actually might not be as much of a disadvantage because it takes up a lot less space in the container where you're circulating.
+
+[21:10] So a lot of people don't think about, um, the fact that a larger circulator that takes up more space in the pot needs a fundamentally larger vessel to cook
+
+[21:19] in, and so you need more power just to, because you're dealing with a larger bucket of
+
+[21:23] water. Whereas if you can get away with a smaller bucket of water because you have a smaller profile thing, then maybe you don't need as much power. So these are all kind of things to look at. But in terms of the actual like PID algorithm, there are slight differences between different people's PID algorithms, but they all freaking pretty much work.
+
+[21:42] You know what I'm saying?
+
+[21:46] Yeah, all right. Well, let us know getting some fuzz on here, but let us know which one you've chosen, whether you like that. I like hearing feedback from people, you know, don't you, right? Yeah, they're supposed to we're supposed to have a newer one for the Nomi Cruz. Wi-Fi, but I don't really care about that, but it was like over
+
+[22:02] 1200. You can for the eating element, so that was what I was looking at. All right, well, we're getting a lot. hard for me. I haven't seen the new Nomiku that is Wi-Fi, but like, you know, I'm considering, you know, turning my entire house to Wi-Fi so that when my router goes down, I can no longer turn on the lights. I'm actually petrified about this. You guys know about these light systems for your house? It's like you have these light systems, like Hugh, where you can like, I could like look at my house right now and be like, you know what? I want my dog to be bathed in a soothing purple light. And I could, like, make a soothing purple light, like, and look it on my phone and see whether my dog is on my phone. I see whether my dog's grooving. But what happens when you, when like you're, I have a problem with your router. Right? You gotta go manual, I guess, then. But, like, people are going switchless. Like they're not even having switch plates on the wall anymore. Because I had it in the last apartment I was in, but it's like if it wasn't working on the phone, you could just go turn it on. Well, so like some of the systems like are more just like augmented with phone and
+
+[23:01] Wi-Fi and some of them are literally intended for you to turn your switches on and off on a regular basis with your
+
+[23:07] phone because let's face it, like half the people you know are buried in their freaking phones all day
+
+[23:11] anyway, so they might as well control their bowel movements from their phones. You know what I mean? Because that's how unseparated they are from it. But, uh, But, you know, like what happens if that goes down? It's like, you know, that's like, uh, you know, the story, I like to say that, uh, you know, when they came, the cable guys came right before, um, what was
+
+[23:28] the hurricane that hosed at Sandy? When Sandy came through, like a week beforehand, they were like, we're giving you an internet phone. It's going to be better than your real honest to God wire phone. Nope. Because it's not redundant anymore. Like, you know, whatever. Whatever. I don't know. I'm considering buying these systems, but they just make me nervous because I'm an old geezer. What did you say? There's a new collar. I'll get, all right, all right. All right. Call her. on the air. Hey, I actually need to take the answer off the area because I'm, like, right in a meeting right now, actually, but I was wondering if you're familiar with the
+
+[24:03] Mod Bar Porter module. Um, it heats water to like a really specific temperature. Is it similar to, uh, is it similar to like the, the heating system like on a clover, but just more in a pour over situation? Yeah, it's got it's got a boiler, um, and it just pumps from the boiler. It gets the water to a super specific temperature and then pumps out. I was looking for an alternate method to do that, but like not an Insta hot because what I've read is that Insta hots generally
+
+[24:32] suck and they break in, they're awful. How many cups do you need to make it once and how much time are you willing to wait for the cup to happen? Um, well, I would like it to be on demand and an endless supply from a cold
+
+[24:44] uh, line. don't want it to come from a hotline. I mean, so most of the problems with, um, so it's, look, temperature control is very similar, no matter what style of coffee you're making. It's very similar problems, right? So, uh, I mean, the only problem that you that you don't have is the problem of pressure regulation. And, you know, the other the only problem that you do have that I wouldn't have is if you want some sort of agitation while you're
+
+[25:08] working. And if you want that to be, um, you know, or if you believe in like, you know, the super fancy swirl patterns and all this other stuff of how you add the liquids,
+
+[25:16] right? But in terms of, in terms of control of the water itself, right? So I'm not talking about the delivery, but in terms of just the temperature of the water, like that, you know, you could do for not very much. You want to build one yourself? You want to build one yourself? Yeah, yeah, I want to do a DIY kit. And actually, I'll also listen to a podcast because I have to go, but thanks for that. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I'll just I'll just talk for a minute as though you were still on the air. So the, um, like this kind of temperature control is is fairly, fairly simple. So I'll just talk about it from in terms of how you would go about controlling something where I can picture it in my head exactly, which is, you know, the
+
+[25:56] classic, uh, I know it's espresso, but the techniques are the same, right? is like the Silvia, right? So the Sylvia is the classic espresso machine that everybody mods out because, you know,
+
+[26:07] it's it's, you know, it doesn't have a lot of parts. It doesn't have really electronics so much. It's like all like wired. It's very easy to break into and mess around with. It's all open. There's lots of space on the inside. Um, you know, and it works relatively well. It's high quality, right? So, um, the 1st thing you do is you want to, you want to take whatever source of large amount of water that you have and you're going to want to temperature control that, right? Bang. So um, that is very easy. You're just going to get, uh, you're probably going to get a, an, now, I'm assuming you don't want to do anything fancy. You're not going to move to microprocessor control. If you're going to move to microprocessor control, it's a whole different thing, I might use a different set of systems to do
+
+[26:45] it, because depending on what microprocessor you use, you have to buy a lot of stuff if you want to, let's say, integrate thermocouples into
+
+[26:51] it, because they have to go through a thermocouple amplifier before they go into your microprocessor, right? As opposed to some other systems where, which are a lot easier. You can buy sensors fundamentally that just plug directly into many microprocessor systems so that you don't have to do a lot of
+
+[27:05] like interfacing or programming or anything like this. But, and there's 1000000000s of people online who have done coffee systems that are
+
+[27:13] microprocessor based. I'm just gonna assume that you're not microprocessor right now. So you're just going to get a very simple PID controller from, you know, depends on how much you want to spend, you know, how kind of like, you know, nice or fancy they are, but you can get one for like 30 bucks now.
+
+[27:27] Thermocouple, very cheap. And you're not dealing with high pressure, so it's not a problem. And you just want to control the temperature of the vessel where the water is stored, insulate the hell out of it,
+
+[27:39] have the heater at the bottom. It'll form a convective thing of a crap so that you're not going to have a problem with having too much of a temperature gradation throughout the thing so long as you're not radiating too much heat out of the top.
+
+[27:52] Now you're and you don't really need to get rid of a lot of heat to regulate your temperature because you're going to be pumping cold water into it when you're taking this stuff
+
+[28:00] out. Now here's the deal. The larger the volume of water that you keep warm. The longer it will take, the longer it will take to get it warm at the beginning, but the less temperature fluctuation you
+
+[28:12] have when you put water into it. Now you have 2 ways you can do this. You can take the hot water out, then pump water in,
+
+[28:20] right? And if you do it that way, then you have to wait each time you're
+
+[28:24] going to make the coffee for the temperature to get back to where it was, but you're not
+
+[28:28] going to have a temperature drop during the pump out. The other solution is to take and put a, to wrap a heater around a pipe or to get an internal, like, you can get what's called a cartridge heater that is,
+
+[28:41] like, they screws in like a pipe style or you can do it with a compression thing and actually put it in line with the liquid.
+
+[28:46] So you'd have, you'd have a tea, you'd have, you have like 2 teas, the water would go through the tea, pass over the cartridge heater
+
+[28:52] and in. Then you'd put a thermocouple on that, and you'd use bang bang, meaning on off. So what happens is you'd set it to whatever the temperature slightly above the temperature of what you want it to be is. And then it would just, you have a historesis in it, like a regular little thermostat. The idea here is you just want to get the water within about one or 2 degrees of
+
+[29:11] what you're going to want to use. And so if you wanted to do that and get a 0 temperature drop, in espresso, you're looking at pulling, you need roughly 600 watts of power
+
+[29:21] to, uh, because we're pulling like a couple of ounces in 30 seconds, let's say. And so like it's around 600 watts of power is what you need on the bang bang side of it to make sure that the water's not going to drop too much. Then the other thing is you might have to warm up your delivery mechanism. But usually these are done with very, very low wattage heaters. So in an espresso, you'd be heating the group, um, with
+
+[29:45] a with a very low wattage heater, like on the order less than a 100 watts, you know, and that, you know, you'd also probably do PID. I dont know what you would heat in your system, but you might have some sort of mechanism that you need to
+
+[29:56] heat and you're not going to want to design some complicated thermosiphon so that the boiler keeps it at exactly the temperature that you want.
+
+[30:01] You're not going to do that. So, um, yeah. I mean, and then you're going to need the solo noise. I can talk more about it next time if you want, but is this making sense? Is it making sense about what you need to do? And I'm assuming that if anyone's going to do this project that you know what PID means. All right. So let me rip through some of these questions, because I haven't gotten any questions. Do I need to take a
+
+[30:20] break, Jack? Today's break song is by Knife Show. Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[30:37] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking
+
+[30:48] about, molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[30:55] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place,
+
+[31:18] molecular recipes.com, and just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[31:25] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. There's another caller waiting, but you can answer another question before her if you want. No, no, phone lines are off. But you know what? If you call in, I think you get precedence now. I think so too. one question. I call our caller, you're on the air. Oh, hi. How you doing? So I'm calling because I'm on a low fodmap diet, which basically limits a lot of different sugars that humans don't digest that well.
+
+[32:02] In fact, there's some evidence that all these people are going crazy for gluten-free who think they do well on a gluten-free diet. It's not the protein that's bothering them in wheat. actually the carbohydrated. the sugar. So, I'm wondering, is there a way to get gluten, like pure gluten protein that I can add to breads and
+
+[32:23] things, because I have no problem with the protein. I just have a problem with the sugar. Yeah, 100%. Vital wheat gluten. But I mean, remember, so like I used to buy that all the time. So back, you know, I like what I would do is, is I would buy whatever kind of flowers I wanted, you know, in terms
+
+[32:38] of taste. And then I would just dope in gluten into it, uh,
+
+[32:44] to, uh, up the protein content to the point where I would get the, the elasticity and texture that I wanted. So I used to do that, you know, all the time, but it's been it's been a long time, but I, you know, since I've, I used to, I used to bake bread, you know,
+
+[32:58] every, every day basically. And so I had like a lot of this stuff lying around and I haven't for a long time. But yeah, I mean, I think most supermarkets might still carry it. cans of it on Amazon. The vital week. used to get it in a box. But yeah, you get the vital wheat gluten, and yeah, you can just go to town on that stuff. Now, remember, you don't want to overgluten your your stuff either, but yeah, it's yeah. And it works it works well. I've used it, used it many, many times. So if I do that and then I want to make an alkaline, like ramini noodle, it would work because the gluten would be there. Right. So yeah, you would increase the texture. You won't get the yellowness from the gluten because the yellowness comes from, um, colorless, uh, compounds in the flower itself
+
+[33:42] that, yeah, that are then, that, that, that when they go alkaline, then they develop their characteristic, uh, yellow colors. So some people... So chewy as possible. Chewy as possible. Yellow not so much. Well, in other words, like, it's gonna turn yellow if those things are there. And if it's not, then it's not, but chewy, chewy is definitely possible. Now I've never tried to get... I mean, I'm sure that it's not like 100% like one for one because like all systems are complicated. So I don't know that I don't know that if you were to, let's say, take cornstarch and gluten the hell out of it, whether it's going to have the right texture or not. I just don't know. Uh, because there's there's other things going on, like the, like the, the, the structure of the starch itself, yada, yada, yada. But the, but, but the, yes, but the point is you can give it a shot. But if you want it to go yellow. In fact, I had someone tweet me this the other day, like, uh, people add, um, vitamin B 12,
+
+[34:36] uh, B2, which rival flavin, uh, because, because I guess because it's yellow, but I don't know how much to add
+
+[34:41] or, or, or whether or not that's a, that's a good idea. But in reality, the yellow is more of a consumer marker, it's not an actual... I mean, it's not an actual quality indicator other than then, and then
+
+[34:55] the, then the flower, you know, um, one thing to note is that uh, on yellow alkaline noodles, there's 2 color components that are
+
+[35:04] there. And that is the, um, the yellowness and also what's called brightness. And brightness has to do.
+
+[35:12] There's browning that takes place, you know, kind of darkening that takes place. And it typically takes place in high protein flowers. So yellow alkaline noodles have some bite to them, but they're not necessarily done with super high gluten
+
+[35:25] flour. The best color yellow alkaline noodles that don't have the darkening are typically done with kind of a medium strength of flour. So I wouldn't go, I wouldn't go, you know, Magilla gorilla on the on the gluten. I would just get it to where it would be kind of like a, like a, in an AP range of proteins, not like on the heavy bread
+
+[35:43] side and but not down on the, on the pastry or cake side either. Okay, cool. I will definitely give it a try. And the sugars are all water soluble but not fat soluble. So one very quick follow-up question. What is the best way to infuse oils with mushrooms,
+
+[36:01] garlic, and onions because I can't have any of them and I love them. Oh, well, um, I mean, I would just, I would just do like, uh, you know,
+
+[36:13] a centrifuge. I would just, uh, I would just cut them really fine and just do like a old school. you like, you like heated alliums or raw alliums? I like both, but heated is fine. Yeah. So if you like it heated, I would just heat it with it and then strain it. You get a lot, a lot out of that, that flavor, like old school. Would you do it in a, would you do it in low temp water bath or would you just do it right on the, on
+
+[36:34] the uh, stove, like saute? I mean, it depends on what flavor profile you want. So like the chemistry of aliums is extremely complex, right? So the flavors are going to be different. Let's say you were to crush or grind the garlic first, right? And then put it. The trouble is, is that you're going to have trouble filtering it out. Like you're going to have to use, don't use a coffee filter is going to take you forever. But if you use like, uh, if you use like a, uh, like a paper towel or something, you could probably get most of it out
+
+[37:01] again, but crushing garlic or crushing onions and letting it sit for a minute before they get cooked out, it's going to give you a different flavor profile than if you slice them and do
+
+[37:10] it, uh, or, you know, anything else. Mushrooms. Mushrooms. I've never made a mushroom oil. Hmm. Because all I can buy is truffle oil and that's like, yeah, flavor wise. I'd rather have, you know, almost like a portabella. But I mean, can you can you take a dried mushroom, soak it and then throw the water away and have the mushroom? Does the stuff go away or is it too intact in there? Like, can you leach enough of it out? Still too intact because it's the sugars that are inherent to the mushroom. Rub in other words, you can't leach it out of the mushroom and then eat the mushroom. Maybe it would get enough of it out of it. I mean, I don't I don't know. don't know how much it's going to mess. like, have you mess up your system, but I'm wondering, like, so if you take something that's dried, that has a little bit of rupture or, you know, a little bit of disruption in it anyway, you do the soaking and you take the broth, which is what I use, you know, like all the
+
+[38:05] time. I mean, like it's give it to someone to make risotto, please don't throw it out, but then maybe the mushrooms that went afterwards when they're
+
+[38:11] done. Maybe they've leached enough of their stuff out that they're okay for you. I don't know. I would ask. I don't know if there's a way to test it. I mean, the worst that happens, I get a upset stomach. It's not like I'm going to get hives or go in anaphylactic or something. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good idea to try. Yeah, so then, yeah, you can have the the porcinis after they've rehydrated and then somebody else can have the, you know, you can make a
+
+[38:31] dive mushroom dashi with it or you can make a, you know, risotto, all of these things are delicious. Yeah, yeah. Sounds very cool. Thank you very much for the ideas. All right, thank you. And if anyone knows of making your own mushroom oil, tweet us in and let us know, let us know how it's done. I can't take it. He's gonna add the break. Okay, we're going to put that in later. Yeah. So we have like an 8 7 minute warning here. 7 minute seven. Wow, what a random warning, 7 minute warning. Jack's coming up with a new sport with a 7 minute warning. All right. Okay, we got 2 questions all about both on the same thing. So I'm going to do them both at once. At least I get 2 questions done. Ready? This is David from Pittsburgh wrote in, and also with a similar question, 80 from the UK. So we'll read them both and then answer them both, right? Okay. So we got Dave, I love the show. You guys should have a TV show. Yeah, right, right from, yeah, whatever. I don't, no one's, no one's going to give us a TV show, right? No one's gonna give us a TV show. Yeah, the interest, interest this. You know what? Whatever. time to talk about it. So much bad cooking TV out there. Probably true. There's a lot of TV. Most TV is bad. And period. Not just cooking TV. Most TV is bad. Most things are bad in the world. Most things in the world are low quality. You have a lot of questions. Okay, yeah. Okay. I am from Southwest Pennsylvania, and as you probably know, Scrappel is big in these parts. I do know that. I was wondering if you could talk about the high-end grapple you made reference to a couple episodes back. And also, if you could talk about the process of making different flavor dashis. I've been hearing a lot about bacon, Apple potato dashis to name a few. Thanks so much, Dave from Pittsburgh, and then 80 from the UK wrote in with a similar question. Just caught up with episode 194. Oh my god, what episode are we on now, Jack? have to check, man. Is this 200? No, no, no, no. It's close though. Okay. Can Dave please speak to and describe what his fancy version of Scrapple involved and also haggis? And when will the sears all with a new plate, with a new plated back screens be available? Thanks for the show and don't stop. Best 80 from the UK. Okay. 197, by the way. Ooh. All right, 80, Sears all should be in stock when? Next Monday. Next Monday, hopefully in stock, next Monday. And by the way, the steak decorators, they're shipping them in March. We're looking for a March ship date now because the manufacturer, I forced them to get certification of food grade for everything that they were doing in
+
+[40:47] the in the steak decorator and it took them a while to get their food grade certification in. So I apologize, but steak decorator shipping in mid-March, right, Stas? Okay. Now, let's and then I'll answer the non-scrapple slash haggis related question that David had, if you could talk about the process of making different flavored dashis. So typically when someone says X, Y, or Z, like Dashi, and it's not really really Dashi, right? The way we think about it here, you take your kombu, which is the kelp, the seaweed, giant kelp, and you heat it. I prefer to heat it, not at boiling. Like a lot of people will just bring it up to the simmer and then let it go, let's sit for a while, pull it out. I prefer to keep it around 70 Celsius. I had to have a whole bunch of kombu tests that Nastasia hated, taste. You hated those kambu tests because we were just tasting kambu dashi without any bonito in it at all, right? So she hated it. But anyway, we did extensive testing on this. You can go look on the old cooking issues, saying if it hasn't been entirely taken over by Cielis. Uh, you know, some sort of Seattle salesperson from uh, from the former Soviet Union. But the, um, uh, so you take the combo, you do whatever you're going to do with it. And then, and that pretty much is invariant. Everybody does the combo. Then the question is, what are you going to add to it? So typically, if you are making standard Dashi, you take the Katsu Abushi, which is the, you know, the pieces of the bonito that have been like kind of like cooked, molded, dried, smoke cooked, molded, dry smoke, and they turn into these like boards, these, not boards, but they look like wood, they look like
+
+[42:13] wood, and then you shave them into these delicious like bonito flakes, which, you know, are bonito flakes, and then you put them in and you still get, and it gets that awesome kind
+
+[42:23] of proteiny cook. It's like all of the, it's amazing. I, you know, I, I love this stuff. But if you don't eat that, then you, um, then you could use mushrooms,
+
+[42:33] we were talking about mushrooms before, that adds a lot because you're trying to add, you're trying to add, they had different parts to get the super umami out of it, right? Or, you know, Chang, Dave Chang, who started making bacon, what he called bacon dashi a long time
+
+[42:44] ago, is like, well, you know, these fish are going to be fished out soon. So what if we use kind of pork products? What if, and he actually made pork, like katsuobushi things that are cured in a very similar way, or you could just use bacon because what you're really looking for is something meaty, savory, you know, sometimes smoky, depending how you're feeling about it,
+
+[43:03] cured. Other, and then I've never, the Apple Dashi that I've seen is really just a Dashi that people have added Apple too. It's like, you know, dashi with apple in it. Um, not like Apple instead. I look for potato, and I think people probably just doing potato and dashi, although I did see somebody actually fermented a potato. Anytime you're going to make a dashi and you're starting with a combo thing, you want something else that has protein breakdown products in it, right? So think things like, uh, bonito flakes or like, uh, mushrooms or like, um, I guess even, you know,
+
+[43:36] anything that people say are like big umami bombs, probably even like uh, cheese rinds. Parmesan cheese rinds would be good. things like that. So it's just looking to get that savory thing in a quick way. So, you know, like a classic Japanese Dashi stock, all the work is done beforehand. Uh, and then the dashi happens in, like, in a couple of minutes, whereas in a Western stock, you know, they do fundamentally no work
+
+[43:57] beforehand, and then they spend hours on a stock, right? That's fundamentally a different way of looking at it. Now, to scrapple and haggis. and this is going to be our last thing because they're going to get rid of us. So, Scrapple is, for those of you that don't know is a cornmeal and
+
+[44:10] buckwheat. A lot of people omit the buckwheat, mush that is made by taking whatever crap you have when you butchered the animal.
+
+[44:18] So the pluck, which is like kind of the heart, the lungs, the liver, and then plus some bones and other odds and ends and like
+
+[44:25] scraps. And you boil that to make a very richly flavored stock that has
+
+[44:29] like usually if you add a lot of bony stuff, a lot of gelatin in it and whatnot. You pull all the meat out after it's soft and rendered and falling off the bone. You put all the meat, rip it off the bones, you put it through a grinder, and then you add, you add a mixture of cornmeal and
+
+[44:46] buck wheat to the stock, and you stir it like you're making a polenta cook it, throw the meat back into it,
+
+[44:52] right? Form it into blocks, right? And then you take those blocks, you chill them, you cut them into into slices, and then you fry them,
+
+[45:01] right? And so now depending on whether you are, you know, a city kid like me, you either have it in the morning with maple syrup on
+
+[45:08] it because I put maple syrup on every damn thing because that's who I am. But uh, or not. Like a lot of people are against the maple syrup, right? You what I'm saying? A lot people are against the maple syrup. I happen to like it, and I can do what I like. So now the question is, why don't people like this? Because people are stupid, right? So you have to move to a higher end version of it. You have to take away what people don't like about the Scrapple. And to make a higher end version, here's a couple. You can also make it taste more refined. So here are the things. People don't like liver in their scrapple, as it turns out. So what you want to do is like reduce the amount of liver that you have in it, sometimes down to none. And it might not be as official anymore, but you're going to get a lot more people pounding a lot more of it if it doesn't have a heavy liver flavor in the mush.
+
+[45:49] That's just one suggestion. Another thing is, um, quick, quick. Okay, the way I do it, like to make a higher, higher. Also, I'm going to get killed by people from Pennsylvania, but if you go to a straight
+
+[46:01] cornmeal and don't do the buckwheat, it won't taste traditional, but a lot more people who are used to loving Italian
+
+[46:07] food are going to like it more, right? It's going to taste more even like regular southern food because it's not going to have another intrusive
+
+[46:14] like kind of taste or texture to it. So go to straight corn meal to work people into it to go higher. Also, make a stock first, right? And then don't use that meat to add the meat to the thing. So add a flavorful meat, almost like whatever sausage base you want. Add that as your ground meat to the scrapple when it cooks out at the end, so it hasn't been cooked for a 1000000000 years like that. It's tenderized. and then make a stock and a pressure cooker beforehand with your scraps and bones so that you're separating the problem of the stock preparation from
+
+[46:41] the meat that's going into it. So that makes it just a much kind of more refined. You can adjust the flavors more. You can get a nice texture out of everything. It's not like a big mess and you can cut it. Oh, and then next time we'll talk about the haggis, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:07] ingredients, and tools. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:33] Network in Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual with Nastasia Hammer Lopez and Jack in the engineering booth today. How you doing, guys? Isn't it our 200th? No, not yet. No, because we skipped last week. This is like, what is this, 99 or 98? That was 98. No, it's either 198 or 199 today. Oh, 199. 199. 199 episodes. And we're on next week, right? Yeah, well, I mean you tell us. Oh, ha, ha, nanny, nanny, poo, poo. I forget what we were. Oh yeah, we had... What should we do for 200? I don't know. Like, as people like, by the way, should you have any questions? I have a lot. I have a huge backlog, people. I don't wanna hear it. We might have to do a catch up. before 200. Well, then that would technically be 200. I would upload it and it would be 200, you know? So you're saying we have to do ketchup after 200. Right. All right, listen. Will there be champagne next week? Yes. Oh, Stas is going to show up. I just confirmed. Stas, you know what Stas told me? Right before the show, Stas was like, you know what? I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm not gonna show up. And then she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Champagne. and listen. Here's the question. Are we actually talking champagne? Who do we have? Are you any bubbly? Really? No preference? Cava? was ready to take your preference. Whoa. No, just get it. I mean, it's 200. Well, that's true. It is 200. Stas, listen. So we can get Krug. Maybe for 200, million stars can host the show we've been wanting to host for 200
+
+[2:08] episodes. called issues. Yeah, just where we talk about our issues and solve your issues unrelated to cooking. Like my personal issues? Anybody, anybody's, yeah. Just issues in general? Just issues. That's a wide-ranging show. You could just take the 3 of our issues and fill a whole show. anyway, listen. So calling your questions two. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And I also want you guys to maybe come up with some sweet, sweet ideas for
+
+[2:31] the 200, right? Yeah, send us some email. I got some listener emails with some ideas, but keep them coming. Yeah? Yeah. All right. Very good. Okay. So some updates. Uh, we had uh, MRAC on the, he is at Test Tube Waltz. That's his or her. Actually, I don't know. M. M. Her? Her? Test Tube Waltz wrote in because someone had asked about how to suspend citrus
+
+[2:59] oils. Remember this question a couple weeks back? And so his her suggestion is uh, used uh, leveraged Esther of wood rosin is a new brominated vegetable oil. and not poly sorbet, but maybe, maybe, because you can have to be able to get the leverage ester of, uh, wood, uh, rosin,
+
+[3:16] try lessin. Um, and also, uh, cyclodextrine might work to carry citrus oil, and it's clear. The carrying capacity is lower, however. So there you go. That's a follow-up for I forget who it was that asked about that, but I love it when people follow up on the Twitter. I try to read it back. And then we had one. Someone tried to ask about mushroom oil. Remember that one? Someone's going to make mushroom oil because they couldn't have the mushrooms necessarily, I think, was what it was. And I forgot, I'm sorry, whoever tweeted this into me. I forgot to copy who it came from, but I think this was at Clefts, maybe. Maybe this was that Clef did this. To make mushroom oil, take neutral oil, dry mushrooms, and a 2 to one ratio, blend for about 8 minutes until very, or until very fine.
+
+[3:54] Cook at 80 degrees Celsius in 24 hours, for 24 hours in a water bath, strain it, or don't.
+
+[4:01] It's up to you. Strain adult. I don't know where I don't know where they come from. So that's how I assume they sound like. In my head, that's how everyone sounds like until I hear you. Pretty much right, right? Yeah, all right. Okay. Um, I feel like I need to answer Max uh, Max's questions about outdoor kitchens because, like, it's been like, I don't know, a month and a half or something. So I want to build an outdoor kitchen with a big barbecue, not the right time of year in our part of the
+
+[4:22] woods, by the way. Uh, so, like, I'm definitely gonna, but anyway, okay. I'd like to build an outdoor kitchen with a big barbecue, a smoker, and maybe a rotisserie. You like rotisseries does? You like rotisserie cooked things? What about you, Jack? Are you fan of the rotisserie? Oh, yeah. Why is, do you know why the rotisserie is good? No. Okay. I would assume because it's even? Well, it's it works in in... Okay, so McGee and I have this thing and it's like, you know, the kind of like the law of why the rotisserie works good. Well, good. It was good. So like the reason why is, um, it has a very high instantaneous heat input, but a very low average heat
+
+[4:58] input. So you develop that nice crust with a nice surface with a high instantaneous heat input, but because your average heat input is low, it acts almost like a low
+
+[5:07] temperature kind of a cooking situation. So it's a very old way to achieve kind of modern results if you want. See, see what I mean? See? I built a rotisserie once. I did too. How did you build your rotisserie? I built several. How do you build yours? Over spit with ropes and then I would turn it. Oh, you turned it by hit. the power? That was the power. Right. Well, you know, I did, we did this TV show thing once where I had to, we, they had to, they used an actual dog to power the spit because they used to have turnspit dogs that would run
+
+[5:33] a little hamster wheels. No, no, a Tudor, Tudor era. This was time machine. Time machine, chief. Yes. But also, like, I built a rotisserie once that fit into my salamander, but I had to pull out the dripping grease dripping
+
+[5:47] trade. Otherwise, the chickens wouldn't fit into it. I was like, you know, I don't want to just do Cornish hens, so I've got to do the chicken. So I had to drop it down and get rid of the grease tray. But the other best rotisserie I ever did. You know what the problem with rotisserie motors is? People. Rotisserie motors suck, and here's why. The average rotisserie motor you can get is really just a POS and here's why. They don't have 0 backlash gears. So what's happening is the rotisserie needs to spin slowly. Let's say it does, I don't know, three, 4 hour PMs, something like that, 4 PM, right? lets say it. around there. don't know. I got to look it up. But anyways, so you put the shaft on it and you've weighted your whatever,
+
+[6:22] hopefully so that it doesn't so that it's even and doesn't like, you know, move around on your skewer on your spit too much, right?
+
+[6:28] Now here's what happens. You never, ever, ever load it exactly right. There's always some sort of imbalance. So what happens is, is the motor goes, you've heard them, right? And then it gets to the point where that top load goes over and then it goes into free fall for, you know, a good, a
+
+[6:47] good, like, seven, 8 degrees. And it goes, ka chink. And then it goes, again, as it goes around and you can hear it. And so what's the problem with this? Well, one, one section of your thing isn't getting hit for the same amount of time as the rest, which is stupid.
+
+[7:00] But also, it puts like, not only did it start out in balance, but it puts a chink, chink,
+
+[7:06] chink load on it every freaking time it spins around. And so every freaking time it spins around, it has a little bit of force added to
+
+[7:13] it, and it gets more and more soft or cooked or, you know, hot, it has a tendency to spin out. So you get all these things where it runs all right for a while and then craps out on you unless you're used to it and do a really good
+
+[7:23] job or you have the side, you know, I'm talking about the side chinks that really sit in there and really crush that stuff. I hate that. I hate it. And so, you know, the 1st rotisserie I ever built. I used a 0 backlash, really expensive motor because I stole it. Like, we had like a pile of motors that the Columbia University had, and they didn't know what they didn't know because, like, they were shutting this department down, so there's a huge pile of motors there. So we used a sweet old Bodine motor with an awesome gear shaft, like a long thing. We cut a 55 gallon drum in half, incinerated all of the carcinogenic
+
+[7:52] paint off of it, so it was dry. cut a sheet of expanded metal in half, 4 by 8 sheet of expanded metal in half that we also stole, put it over the thing, welded some legs on
+
+[8:01] it, and put like a giant pig on this rotisserie. It was awesome. And you know what? That motor had no backlash. Anyway, so in terms of rotisseries. What I would suggest is either hire Anastasia to come and be the power for the rotisserie, but some of these things cook a long time. You know what I mean? Yeah, what about the, you ever do the vertical one? The one in the fireplace with the spinning thing where you use the just the, no, anyway. Hire Nastasia to come. And, you know, she gets her energy from... from spite and hate. So you'd have to like, you know, if you stand there, then I'm sure she'll have enough energy. And it was energy from happiness. Oh, but
+
+[8:39] get a 0 backlash motor when you're making a rotisserie. And the other thing is, if you're going to have a rotisserie there that's powered, you're going to need to obviously get electricity. Now, there's 2 kinds of kind of outdoor kitchens. Now, the question actually was, do I have any good literature and or blogs on the subject that I can recommend? Answer, no, because, you know, I haven't done, like the full research on it. I've been researching right now, just what's the best way to pour the concrete, for the slabs,
+
+[9:03] the refractory, bricks, and things like this? I've been looking at individual things. Because remember in my outdoor, so there's various kinds of outdoor kitchens. Outdoor kitchens are extremely popular now, so even like Quick Crete, the concrete people have a book that they put out that shows you, you know, how to lay it out and, you know, do the coursing and stuff to
+
+[9:21] build it. But most people fundamentally want just, you know, an outdoor kitchen, i.e. they want
+
+[9:27] their, uh, they want their fridge. They want, you know, a bunch of stuff, electric and gas at it. I'm going to have gas there as a gas assist for the fire pit, but I'm primarily building an outdoor wood fired kind of cooking station, uh, and not like, I mean, maybe
+
+[9:43] a traditional one, except for I am going to have gas to it to run the gas assist and to run the deep fryer, which is going to need to be
+
+[9:48] covered because my deep fryer is going to be outside in Connecticut. So I don't have anything right now, except for, like I said before, I'm going to build a criticula, which is the Roman style thing, like
+
+[9:58] a high heat surface, a bread oven, a tandor, and a fire pit. Maybe I'll build a rotisserie thing into it. And I will probably want a fridge, right? In a fryer? You want a fridge? Because why? Because you need a fridge. Because why not? And work surfaces. So as I do it, I will talk more about it on the show, but I don't have any specific references right now,
+
+[10:17] but you know, obviously I love telling people where I get ideas. So as I do it, I will come up with information. It's too cold. You're in Sweden for Christ's sakes, how are you building an outdoor kitchen in Sweden right now? Although I remember when I went to Stockholm, I think I talked about this on the show, like I went in January or February, January. And the people in Stockholm were so baller, because they're just, they're sitting outside in Stockholm in the
+
+[10:40] wintertime having drinks, and everyone just like has blankets on, like giant blankets, and they're standing under heat lamps outside, and they're like, what? What? What? Anyway, so Swedes, love them. Okay, um, Jasper, you also wrote a question from Sweden on uh, RotoVaps, but it's long and complicated. I get to it. to it later and it's about chilling. So did I answer that one already, actually? I don't know Jack will figure out whether I did. Stephanie wrote. I don't think so. All right. Stephanie wrote in from Sydney, Australia. you ever been in Australia? No, you know this. What about you, Jack? I have not, no. No. I want to go to Australia someday. I want to go to New Zealand someday in Australia. So far away, so far. I'm Stephanie from Sydney and I love listening to your podcast. I have a slow juicer that I use almost daily. Slow juicer sounds like a dance, doesn't it? Slow juice. Sure. Yeah. Over the last year, a white film has built up all over
+
+[11:35] all over the internal services, even though I wash it properly every time. I've been trying to look up what causes this and how to get rid of it. Most articles on the internet tell me it is caused by the oils and the fruit and the vegetables and to clean it with bicarbonate plus vinegar solution. So like, well, that's just making foaming, right? Bicarbonate may have aware. Uh, I've tried this and it works on the lighter bits of white film, white, right? White film. Uh, but some of the buildup, especially in the nooks and crannies. Ooh, nooks and crannies. Now I'm thinking of Thomas's English muffins. You like Thomas's English muffins? Who doesn't like them? You know how you kill a Thomas's English muffin? Slice that sucker in half with a knife so that you cut all the crannies. You got to fork split them. Yeah, it's gotta be a fork. Got to be fork split. How many times have you seen someone try to bust out a bunch of Thomas's English muffins and they cut it with a knife and they obliterate them. And ridiculous. You need a fork. Makes me so and my blood boils. People do that. Crazy. Okay. Uh, where was I? Nooks and crannies. Uh, they they crap. And the nooks and crannies are a lot more stubborn. They wouldn't be if Nastasia did it because they'd just be sliced flat. Anyway, um, Okay. It also takes a lot of bicarbon vinegar to get anywhere. Another website says to rub extra virgin olive oil on it, something about oil dissolving
+
+[12:54] in oil, like oil on oil action. You like that size? Okay. But this only works superficially. Once the plastic bits are clean and dry, the white film is still present. No one likes a white film. No one likes a white film. I'm wondering if you have any idea what causes this. And if you have any better way of getting rid of this stubborn juice or scum, thanks. Regards, Stephanie, go. So the truth of the matter is, is that I kind of just put up with things like, like, films, I probably shouldn't, right? But I did some look into it. And if they are, in fact, oil-based, I don't know this is going to work, and I couldn't find anyone that specifically recommended it, but one of the most stubborn things that I have to get off of anything
+
+[13:35] is like really baked in coffee oils. They're really a pain in the butt on the internals of like espresso machines and things like this. And UNX or like espresso machine or coffee machine, detergent is pretty hardcore. So assuming that your products are made of a plastic that can be boiled, then you can just boil those suckers in, um, in
+
+[13:59] earn X or whatever, like the local equivalent of espresso machine cleaning detergent
+
+[14:04] is. And that stuff is no joke. That, like, I put my, uh, you know, my brass into it that has like all like kind of crap on it from the inside of this espresso machine, like, you know, the, uh, where the group head
+
+[14:15] is, and boom, the chrome stuff comes out shining. Um, plastic things. I'd cook my I cook my my coffee brush brushes, which are, you know, pretty tough. I cook those in it and they come out sparkling. So that stuff's pretty good. Another thing is neutrafaster, the juicer, which is like kind of like one of the butt kicking juicers of all juicing
+
+[14:38] time. It's like, it's the one that looks like a spaceship on top of a pillar. They make a product for cleaning out the metal parts of their juicers in case they get filmed or slimed
+
+[14:47] out. It's proprietary, and it's called clean cut, but you can buy it from neutra faster, and that stuff might work. And then, as a last thing, in case it is some sort of build up, um, that is related to, uh, water maybe, maybe, I don't know, hard water or something. And even I've read some things that things that aren't having to do with this can be solved by using CLR, which is the calcium, lime, and rust deposit
+
+[15:10] remover, and like maybe there's something in there that's attacked by that. So give those 3 things a try and let me know what happens, right? Yeah. Alex writes in. I don't think we got, do we talk about Wondra? No. One draw. Hello, Nastasia, Jack, and Dave. Thanks for the show and everything else. I've listened to just about every back episode over the past 2 years, and I haven't heard you comment about pressure cookers that don't leak any steam as being better, but I cannot recall ever hearing why.
+
+[15:36] I have some guesses, but would rather hear your reason. And if it's a slow day and you have time for another question. Last week, you spoke to a caller about ultra spurse versus uh, M versus three. Al, remember, ultra spurse are the pre-agglomerated, um, pre-cooked starches that dissolve
+
+[15:54] anise, as opposed to, um, you know, the ones that are just pre-cooked, but then when you put them in, they can clump very quickly because they, they, you know, they form, they form balls because
+
+[16:03] they, they clump. That why you get a pre-glomerated. Anyway, I'm unfamiliar with them beyond being pre-gelatinized starch,
+
+[16:09] maize, and tapioca, respectively. How are they different than Wondra, which is the, you know, a wheat flour that you can buy, which we'll talk about. And what am I missing out by not using them? Thanks again, Alex. Okay. Um, 1st to the pressure cooker. I don't know why. I really don't. Like, um, it was one of those things that I never anticipated. Um, I never anticipated. what we did years and years ago. I was doing a test on pressure cooked stocks and I had assumed that pressure cooked stocks would beat traditional stocks like very easily because I had made pressure cooked stocks for years at home with my pressure cooker, which is a coon recon. And I, at school, they had these kind of these Fagor pressure cookers and the Fagor pressure cookers, they, the way they work
+
+[16:56] by, to regulate pressure is they vent a constant amount of steam to keep the internals of the thing at 15
+
+[17:01] psi. And what you do is, is you just throttle it down so it's only leaking a little bit of steam and then you know that it is running at pressure. That's how they regulate their pressure. Whereas Coon Recon has a spring in it, and what happens is you can look at it, and you can adjust the height of the spring, which says how much pressure it is.
+
+[17:18] So you just use your heat regulation to adjust how high the spring pressure is, but it doesn't until it gets old and the seals start getting weak, it doesn't leak any steam as it's cooking. So anyways, so I'm there making a pressure cooker a stock in the
+
+[17:30] Fagor, and I do this side by side and it comes out looking like I expected. Pressure cooker stocks come out browner than regular stocks. Um, so, you know, everything's as expected. We go do our blind taste test. Boom. The traditional stock, like everyone liked it better. Everyone liked it better. I liked it better. I was like, because you don't want that to happen. I mean, you do, but you don't. And then, uh, we did it again and traditional stocks win again. And remember, I had already started writing a blog post this, but I'm already like a 1000 words into the blog post. I don't want it to be for nothing and I got to publish this negative result. So I bring my pressure cooker from home. And I make stock and it wins easily over the traditional stock. And then we did all 3 side by side another couple of times. And so we just did it empirically. It just turned out that these pressure cookers that were venting a lot as they were cooking. We're not producing the same taste results as the ones that didn't. And I don't know why to this day. I've never had someone run GC Mass Spec on it to see whether we're losing a particular volatile. I have no, I have no speculation that makes any sense. I just know it from empirically and until someone comes back and shows me, you know, that why or what I was doing
+
+[18:41] wrong. I just stick with the coon recon that doesn't vent, or you can seal stock in jars or cans inside of a venting pressure cooker and get those same results.
+
+[18:50] Anyways. One draw. So, ultra spurse, all of those ultra spurse products are pure starches that are, you know, they're very highly kind of
+
+[18:59] refined starches that have very specific characteristics that are nice, but they're pure starches that are pre-cooked, then agglomerated so that they dissolve properly. Wondra, on the other hand, is flour that is precooked and agglomerated. So it's not wheat, wheat, starch, it's wheat flour, that is kind of instantized in the way that these other things are instantized.
+
+[19:23] So in a situation where you would want to bring, I think it's low protein flour. If you want to bring, uh, like the, all the characteristics of a low protein flour, including the protein into it, then you would use
+
+[19:34] a wandra. So like one drill, a lot of people use it. A lot of people use pre, you know, pre-aglomerate, pre-gelatinized starches in batters, for instance. I think because they can absorb and capture water very quickly. I don't know why. There's a bunch of studies on it, but I don't really remember the mechanisms of it. Anyways, so that's the difference and that's, you know, use one where you would want a pure starch and use the other where you would want all the characteristics of
+
+[19:58] a flower just in an instant format. Tom Fisher wrote in about lobster. I don't know whether answered this. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Wyatt, not here of today. He just got here later. Oh, hey, Wyatt, what's up, buddy? You got called out right in time. Perfect. I mean, this song right now. Yeah, talking with his mouth. Like a regular croissant or some sort of like nouveau croissant. Almond. Almond. What do you think about the almond croissant says? You like chocolate in your croissant. But you don't like a regular croissant, because you know what, Nastasia hates buttery, flaky, delicious things. you know this? Yes, yes. She hates it. hates biscuits. It hates. So there's a new thing that's out. I mean, we all know about Dominique Ansel's crow nut, right? Isn't there some sort of like new, like, croissanterie going on with some sort of one of the bigger, some sort of, like, croissanification or something? It's like they're, I don't know, they're turning a cow into a croissant or something like this? I don't know, like very finely layered, buttery, flaky cow, crispy. Anyway, someone else should come up with it. Like a pork rind croissant, you know? Pork, pork rind song. Well, the thing is, like, you'd have to make like micro layers of pork rind. Layer them, fry them up in butter, in claret, clary butter. Man, man? Try it. We'll try it sometime. You know, the problem is you'd have to get it like just right. Otherwise, the layers will fuse together. So when you're when you're making puff snacks, if you toss them in like a tiny bit of salt water right before you puff them, the
+
+[21:21] starches as they become molten will glue themselves together. That's like the principle of making those kind of rice cakes. And plus even without salt water. That was the, that's how you can do it in a microwave. You can make like rice cakes in a microwave that way. Please don't do it because don't do it, but you can. I've done it. But, you know, there's itinerant issues with it. But like, or in puffing guns, when it's still molten, if they're touching, they'll glue themselves
+
+[21:44] together. So we have to make the pork rind such that the sheets when they melt and expand, don't glue themselves together. You won't get all the layers like in the, what would you call that? You call it like a poissant, but that would be more of a fish. I don't know, we figure it out. Someone else. See Santa's little hipster today? No, what is he looking like? Yeah. Yeah? Nice. Anyway, Tom Fisher writes in. I took your advice from several weeks ago regarding steaming lobsters for lobster rolls. given that you can't really get a thermopen into the meat. Well, you can. You gotta boom, punch it through the carapace. Anyway, um, into the meat. How do you judge doneness? I got £3.5 lobsters and guest steaming time as the charts all stop at 3 pounds. Still, the range of cooking times is pretty wide. Best time. Okay, here's what you do. Par cook those sons of guns. Don't cook a lobster all the way through in its shell. Par cooked those things until they did. Uh, like, you know, a couple of minutes, then crack them open. break them apart, and then cook the different pieces of meat separately,
+
+[22:42] like in butter or in. I actually do it in their own juices. I save the juices when I break it, and I bag them and cook them in their own juices. I like to cook them at high temperature because I kind of like that firmer. I don't like soft, mushy lobster. Do you like soft mushy lobster sauce? You like firm? You don't even like lobster that much. But when you like it, when you had it. and lobster rolls Yeah, but you don't want it to be soft and mushy. You want it to have that traditional cooked texture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyways. So, and then it's much easier to judge doneness because you can just sit there and squeeze it with your fingers,
+
+[23:10] you pull the bag out, go, and you squeeze it with your fingers and you know the sucker's done. You know what I'm saying? Much easier, much, much easier than trying to time out because when you're cooking a lobster that large, uh, like, you know, and I've done like six, £7
+
+[23:22] normally, and then like, you know, 25, £30. When you're doing something like that, it's not the bigger the lobster, the more impossible it is
+
+[23:30] to, um, to cook the inside without absolutely hammering the outside. So you want to break the meat in the smaller chunks and then you can calculate it with, you know, CV dash or any of those other things. That's how I do it. Anyways. And it also makes your life a lot free and easier. It just does because you pull the lobsters out. You can do the Nils Norin. Nils Norin ties a string around their tail, and then, you know how lobsters have that, uh, they have that kind of pointy, like, like bow sprit thing that comes out of their face
+
+[23:58] right right in front of their eyes and like sticks out like a pointy, you know what I'm talking about? Jack, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. So what you do is it doesn't hurt them. So don't want any letters, please. But you, like, tie string around their tail, like right where the flare is at the smallest point where it, like, it flares. And then you go over their back and then around the pointy doodle and you tie it back to itself. So 1st of all, it gives you a little handle, which is nice to pick up the lobster so you don't burn yourself. Did you ever sous vide them? Yeah. What do you mean? But after you, no... No. No, it would take forever to kill them, it's freaking cruel. Don't do that. Anyway, so you take and you tie their nose to their and then and then their tail stays straight. So it's an alternative to the to the just shove skewers through its tail while it's alive or the knife kill and then skewer it and kill. So it keeps their tail straight, par cook them, throw them in ice water to stop the cooking. Then you break them, and then you can take the meat separately and cook each piece to its own perfection. Yes? Yes. But you got to make sure to cook it enough on the par cook, depending on the thickness, like a minute and a half , 2 minutes. Otherwise, the claw is a gooey mess and you can't get it out. Gooey mess. You know what I'm talking about? You know, I'm double. You never wrote that article. What article? On killing them softly. Well, maybe maybe that's what my next, maybe it'll be my next book. Who knows what my next book's gonna be about. I have a meeting with my publisher tomorrow to talk about my next book. I'll tell you what, people, it will not be about cocktails. David wrote in. take a quick break. Okay, quick break. Let's do it. We'll come back with some cooking issues.
+
+[25:55] Hey, what's up, guys? Its me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[26:10] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking
+
+[26:21] about. Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show.
+
+[26:30] So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chef, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place, molecularecipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[26:57] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. definitely right up your alley. So Jack, is that your that's your molecular music? Oh, yeah. I don't like it. Oh, you don't like any molecular stuff. Why do you not like what specifically? I don't know. It's like annoying. Hey, you should go there. you know what you should give them? You should give them the promo code. Everyone should go and buy stuff on it and say, Jackson,
+
+[27:40] say, Jackson, you say, change the name because we all hate molecular and they know it. They know it. But yeah, check them out. Tell him it was the song that really swung you in the direction of...
+
+[27:51] Bang, bink, bink, bink, bink, ding. That's like Jack Jack Molecular sent to you by Jack Jack Molecules. So, a couple of shout outs before we get back into the questions. I went to the um, pre-opening of uh, where Nick, Nick Bennett, our longest employed bar, our bar captain at Booker and Dax, left us to
+
+[28:13] go uh, help start uh, Porch light uh, with uh, Danny Meyer group. Yeah, it went last night. Looks awesome. Super congratulations out to Nick Bennett. So check it out. There's like an old warehouse building on 28th and 11th. They actually got hit with Sandy, got flooded out, and they rebuilt the inside. The concept of it is that it's kind of like when you go there, it's kind of like hanging out
+
+[28:37] in the porch, so you have drinks on the porch and you have some snacks. And they used all reclaimed wood from the obliterated basement on the inside.
+
+[28:44] That's cool. So check it out and congratulations to everyone involved with Porch Light, Porch Light, NYZ. Also, uh, little uh, self-plug here. So my son, Booker, goes to a school called the Quad Preparatory School, Manhattan, for check out this term. Ready for this? Twice exceptional. Twice exceptional. Why? Well, like, it's like, you know, give it and take it away. It's like smart kids who like are on the autistic spectrum. So it's like, hey, twice. It's not really twice because it's kind of like on either side, whatever, but he goes to the school and I really like it a lot, the school, and they're having a, um, they're having a gala event, but that's not why I'm telling you about it. There is a silent auction, and one of the things that we're auctioning off, and I'm going to make you come with me, Stas. Sorry. I didn't tell you this. Yep, I am sorry. You get to meet Nastasia too. she getting auctioned off? We're I'm auctioning a cocktail party. That's the only thing that people ever buy. bring him in on personal things too. You do all the time. Remember when I helped you move your freaking house in a freaking zip car? Yeah, but I win forever for that. Nastasio rented... Nastasio rented a tiny truck, by the way, and was like, oh, we're moving a couple
+
+[29:54] of things, and she's moving from like a 5th floor walk up to another 5th floor walk.
+
+[29:58] got a freaking zip car that was too small. such that we had to like, we had to bungee cord ourselves to the freaking bed of
+
+[30:06] it, along with her fake fireplace, whatever. I don't want to hear about it. Anyways. So, uh, it's a, it's a... Wait, why can the public bid on this if they don't go to... It's a silent
+
+[30:16] auction, because it's silent auction. They just go. don't have to go to the gauntlet a bit to bid on it. Anyone could bid on it. They don't have a part of the school. They just have to want us to go and they want to support this like small fledging school that's using very new techniques to try and help kids who are very smart, but can't be kind of dealt with in a
+
+[30:36] normal school setting to get their best potential. And they're trying to spin this off into other, you know, not just in, you know, with the small
+
+[30:44] school they have, but spin these techniques off. Anyways, so here's what you would get. So Nastasia and I show up and we make 3 cocktails for you for 3 hours. If you want snacks, you have to get the snacks. We're going to show up. We're gonna make some nice cocktails. You're going to handle ingredients and we're just going to show up. New York City, though. New York City, New York City. Listen to me. New York City. Connecticut. You can do Connecticut? All right, but we have to bring all the crap. Yeah, weekends we could drive all the crap out. All right. you know, if you're in the zone. Not Triborough. I mean, not tri-state. She's like, I won't go across the Tribor Bridge. Of course, no, we take 3rd Avenue in Willis. What are we? Paying money to get out of our own freaking city? No, for those of you that drive up 95. You know what I'm talking about. So the, the, anyway, so we're having a cocktail party, they're auctioning it off. You can bid on it if you like. And the website is HTTPS colon forward
+
+[31:35] forward. www.biddingaforgood.com
+
+[31:40] is a lot of stuff. Forward slash breakthroughs. Breakthroughs, plural, not just one breakthrough. Multiple breakthroughs. What's it called? Double the knowledge or whatever? What do you mean? You'll have twice exceptional cocktails. Whatever that means. Twice exceptional. Hey, we even give you a choice. Usually we do like a third. We do a shaken, and then, and then, you know, a lot of times a carbonated we do. Up to 30 people, right? Yeah, 30 people, 3 hours. We show up, you get to have seen Nastasia's vegan face. bring some vegan stuff to have her eat it. You can see the face, right? Come on. Depends on how much they bid. Right? Nastasia will bring or not her, her, you know, her, her A game, depending on how she feels in any particular situation. But you know what? If someone from the radio show bids on it, it means it's a real honest to God food person, and so we're going to have a good time. It's not just someone who happens to have a lot of money but doesn't care. I think people have a lot of money. or fine too. Yeah, but not if they don't. We've done events before where they just bought it because they got strong armed into buying it and we show up and it might as well just be someone pouring beer
+
+[32:46] and, you know, and handing out white wine. Two. Those aren't fun. I mean, I like beer and white wine like the next guy, but, you know, I don't, you know, I don't need to, you don't need Nastasia and I to come pour that stuff, but if the price is right, we will. Okay. David wrote in about coffee. Um, hey, Dave Nasashi Jack, how are you? I've just listened to the latest cast. I want a couple things about Dave's half mocking suggestion. Did you really call it a cast? Cast. cast is cast. Yes, we are the cast. Short for podcast? like that. Oh, oh, cast. No, yeah, you're right. meant podcast. By the way, we're going back to, remember when Johnny was on and we were talking about coffee and sieves? This is how far behind we are. That's what this is in reference to. All right? So, you know, Johnny from the, you know, the underground cuisine collective in Wisconsin was here and we were talking about using sieves
+
+[33:37] in fractions of coffee to get specific because we're talking about grinders and how, you know, the particle size distribution in a grinder is very important in the taste of coffee.
+
+[33:48] That's what we're talking about. I wanted to add a couple things about Dave's half mocking suggestion that Barista should stack 2 or 3 labs, sieves together to get a uniform profile for the ground coffee.
+
+[33:59] In the average or even fancy coffee shop. That's not practical, of course, but I know some people who compete in brewed coffee championships, actually do one better. Last year, I was at the World Brewers Cup. And I know that during their exhibition, one competitor described how they use four. They discard the top, middle, and bottom piles and only keep the ones between the 1st and the 2nd and 3rd and
+
+[34:20] 4th fractions. Other contestants pick the beans one by one before grinding them or created their own water by dissolving various minerals into DIonized water. Kevin, you use craft cocktails at home. Good book. check it out. The rationale behind the sieve stack. Now I'm thinking of Reggie Watts, a sieve stack, but it's, you know, you can't say it on the radio. was that by having 2 controlled ranges of particle sizes in a single extraction, They were able to better control flavor profile, acidity extraction, and so on. Also, Johnny Hunter was right when he said that 2 uniform particle size range makes for a comparatively less complex cup in the same way as brewing methods that keep relatively uniform brew temperature and or concentration due, e.g. reverse arrow press, French
+
+[35:01] press, or relatives. A great, not just good cup, is about carefully controlled over and under extraction. Oh, by the way, I have also put caustic soda on the tip of my tongue, gnomen omen, it seems. Cheers. David, yes, it's Italian, so you got it right last time, right? David in Italian or David? David? David, is that right at the time? So I got it right last time, so it's David was right. So sorry, I ruined it at the beginning, because it's Davide now. Anyways, good. You know, I love follow-ups like that. Don't you like when people send this follow-ups? So I was like, no, I really don't care. I don't care. Um, from a Mr. Gadwa, regarding the CVAP. didn't do this yet, right? I pinged Dave on Twitter a few weeks back about CVAPs. CVAP is, by the way, was the oven invented by Mr.
+
+[35:42] Winston to help the Colonel Sanders, who is a real human being, figure out how to keep Kentucky
+
+[35:48] fried chicken in good condition over the course of, you know, a long
+
+[35:54] time while it's sitting after it's fried, assuming that assuming they're not crushed in business and they have their frying like as fast as they can serve it, which is how you want.
+
+[36:01] That's how Popeyes does that stuff. They just start frying stuff all the freaking time. You ever notice that? Do you like Popeyes fried chicken? I haven't been in a long time. Do you enjoy it? I think I do Jack, do you enjoy Popeyes? I actually really like Popeyes, yeah. Popeye's a delicious fried chicken. I'm not trying to insult Kentucky fried chicken here. It's better. Okay. Wyatt? what are your thoughts? Both good. What's up, diplomat? Move to Washington. get your diplomat, get your diplomat on. Anyway, so it was invented for that, and the premise of it is, is that there's a heater in the air, and then there's a water, a Bain Marie water system, and that by adjusting the temperature that the
+
+[36:38] Bain Marie is being held at versus the air temperature, you can very accurately adjust the humidity inside the cavity and the temperature, and that the main problem in holding foods is that the humidity inside
+
+[36:49] there's not right. So you just, uh, the difference in temperature between these 2 things. And if you do it properly, you can hold almost anything. And I've had actually, um, hot tortilla chips held in it that stay crunchy. So, and I've had, you know, meat in it that's held for a long time. Ive had chicken that's held in it a long time. Technology does in fact work, but that's what a CVAP biz, that's how it works. But Winston, the guy, he's now like 90. I think he's finally stepping aside. He's like 95 or 96 or something like this. cantankerous dude, cantankerous dude. Anyway, anyway, it looks like, this is going back now to the question. It looks like Winston Industries sadly changed their minds on producing a home CVAP. So give me some UConn Cornelius. Ive changed my mind, does. No. She won't do it? Dax does it all the time. I changed my mind. Anyway, so I'm passing the message below along for the benefit of Dave and the cooking issues listeners. I've been using the Cuisinard steam oven. Well, this can turn out great results. It really makes me pine for a real CVAP or a Combi. The solution, of course, is for Dave to introduce the Booker and Dax 5000 home combi oven. No, no, not on the radar, right, Stas? Not on the radar. You can make a DIY CVAP, though. It's not that, it's actually not that hard. All you have to do is, um, you know, put an accurate control on your oven, which is a lot easier in electric oven, uh, and a, I put a water bath in the
+
+[38:15] bottom and control the difference between a thermocouple that's held in the oven and one that's held in the water bath.
+
+[38:20] I've done it as a test. You can do it. It takes some walking around and working with, but maybe someone out there. Look, all you guys out there. you know, one of you just build it. I told you how to build it, and then just put the protocol up on one of the internet things. There might already be a DIYCVAP thing out there. And if they're not going to make one for home, then they're not going to get too mad if you build
+
+[38:39] one. And the original patents for that thing have been gone a long time ago because they've been around for a bazillion years.
+
+[38:44] So, you know, go ahead and do it. You're not, you know, doing anything wrong or bad. Anyway, um, Anyway, okay. So, and by the way, he sends the, uh, he sends along a note from Winston Industry saying that we're not going to make one. So
+
+[38:58] there, there you have it. Anyways. Ellie writes in about fat and about ice. Dave, I understand that Suett is beef fat from around the kidney area of the beef, the beef. That is very tough to get a hold of here. I forget where she is. That is very tough to get a hold of here. Is there any reason regular beef fat cannot be used in its place, especially if it's rendered? Also, thanks for the clear ice technique and liquid intelligence, that alone, and how my old-fashions look using it are worth the price of the book. Is there any sort of, oh, this might be, uh, the Elliot that's the dude? This might be the other LE. Anyway. Also, thanks for the clear ice technique and liquid intelligence, that alone, and how my
+
+[39:38] old-fashions look, using it are worth the price of the book. Is there any sort of shelf life or freezer life, I guess, on the clear ice that I've
+
+[39:45] made, best LA? Okay. Well, yeah, so in your freezer, right? bad things can happen if things stick out. Like aromas can stick to the service of the ice. And also during like repeated freestyle cycles. You can get some crap on the outside of your ice. The good news is the core of your ice is okay. So if you pull the ice cubes out, let them temper up and then rinse them off a little bit, then they're good. They're good as new. And in fact, if you go to Japan, the assumption is that the ice that they
+
+[40:15] get because they're getting big block ice cut is filthy. And so like, I watched them rinse their ice cubes before they used them. And I was like, why are they doing this? And then I asked someone who, A, speaks English and B is very familiar with Japanese bar technique. He's like, oh, because the presumption is that the ice is dirty. And so they rinse it off. So, you know, I don't know how much you'd have to get rid of, but once it's
+
+[40:36] tempered, and you give it a quick rid, so you could probably do one test, but
+
+[40:40] just, if it's at home, just lick one of the cubes. And then if it has a flavor, that, 0 my god, Santa's little hipster is here and he's dressed in green tights and a green beard.
+
+[40:49] Woo, Christmas is over, buddy. Never. Christmas is never over. He keeps it in his heart, which I appreciate. Anyway, so you can go ahead and lick the ice cube if it's for your own consumption and then rinse it up. Okay, I have I have a, it's for his own consumption style. She's given me the gross face. Here's another thing. Like when I cook, and I actually tell my, I shouldn't say this, but so when you're cooking with extremely hot peppers. So we we're in situations where we take like habaneros and blend large quantities of habaneros, like a kilo of habaneros in a
+
+[41:23] vita prep, right? And then we run it through a roto app, and everything that it touches is poisonously hot, poisonously hot.
+
+[41:30] We've done it with Nagajolokias, even more poisonously hot, right? And so you have people rinse the stuff off and like clean it because some of
+
+[41:38] the stuff can't go through the dishwasher because you can't put it through the dishwasher. And so they're like, it's clean. And I'm like, oh, really? Oh, really? And then, you know what I do? Because here's what you got to remember, people. This sound what I'm about to tell you sounds gross. However, people drink with things all the time and put it to their mouth, eat things with forks, put them in their mouth, and then you clean them and wash them, right? So my test is see whether or not you've properly cleaned when I do something ridiculously hot. I lick it. I see whether it's still hot. If it's still hot, I know you didn't do a good job and you got to rewatch it. If it's not still hot, I just made it gross. Now you have to rewash it and make it clean because of the fact that I licked it, but at least I know
+
+[42:17] that next time you've washed it, it's going to come out being good, it's not going to affect the next product. So, you always have at least 2 washes. But at least this way you know. Anyways. Back to the fat. So the difference between the fat, different fats from different parts of the beef have
+
+[42:37] different fatty acid profiles. So that internal non-muscular fat that's on the inside around is extremely hard. Uh, and, uh, it's extremely high in the, um, in the fatty acids,
+
+[42:50] like, uh, uh, that are longer chained and are, um, just hard as hell. And so they, the actual characteristics of the, of beef suet, real suet, i.e. that you can grade it into things that has a very high melting point, that it makes a certain kind of
+
+[43:08] porosity and the puddings that, that, that's being used in, can't really be imitated by using other types
+
+[43:15] of, uh, beef fat. But it depends. I mean, if you're just using, if you're using it and, you know, you're going to render it anyway or, you know, do something else anyway, then it shouldn't matter. But if you need the particular textural characteristics of
+
+[43:29] suet, then you have to get the real thing. Sorry, right? anyway. I don't know. And I don't know what to say about that. Like the other stuff's just softer. What are you gonna do? Brand it. I'm actually like once I get through this, I'll be on this week's questions. No, so maybe we don't have to do a capture. Well, but I still have questions from this week. I haven't answered yet Anyway... All right, Brandon writes in. I recently got a big green egg. I missed some from Twitter from last week, which I got to find out. I recently got a big green egg, which I can use as a smoker. I'm hoping to be use it in combination with my circulator to get the best from both techniques. If you were to do something like this for, let's say, say, fibs or pork shoulder, uh, would you start in the smoker or in the circulator, uh, what temperature and time would you, um, recommend? Well, once you put the smoke on it, it smokes flavor is going to stay, whether it goes in the bag or not. It really, it all depends on like what's kind of the best, what your best workflow is. I mean, I would probably cirque the stuff out. I would probably circuit out. Uh, pull it out of the bags, let it dry off, uh, substantially before you smoke
+
+[44:37] it and and then smoke it for for flavor instead of for for doneness. And then you can pull it out kind of whenever it's done. That's just kind of what I would do. Do you say what he wanted to? Do you say what he wanted to do? Pork shoulder or ribs. Yeah, you know what? Because the fact of the matter is, yeah, I mean,
+
+[44:55] it also depends on whether when you're smoking, whether you care about getting,
+
+[44:59] you know, if you're doing traditional techniques, whether you care about that ring or anything like
+
+[45:03] that. Most of the reason why people don't like to pre-cook things before they're going into barbecue or smoking. I think are in general wrong, wrong headed because you don't need to add a lot of moisture. You're not removing a lot of flavor. I think it's, I don't know. I think it's kind of like a knuckleheadway to do it. So if you want to do a low temper, if you want the texture of low temperature cooked product, I would
+
+[45:24] probably, and you want it smoked in a traditional thing, I would probably cook it all the way out. Um, you know, like you would for low temp. So for ribs, um, you know, well, it depends. Like for, let's say you're doing a beef rib, like a short rib, you know, for you would do low temp, you would do like 57 because you don't want it too
+
+[45:43] rare. 57 for like, I don't know, a couple days, a little longer, cool it down, pull it out, unbag it, let it dry thoroughly, and then
+
+[45:53] because you don't want it too moist because that's gross, then throw it in and smoke it
+
+[45:56] until until it's ready. I would probably do it that way. Um, that's how probably how I do it. Or you could, if you just want the smoke flavor, but you don't want the texture or something that had just been pulled out of a smoker on the outside. Then you can smoke it beforehand. not going to kill you. not going to hurt it. Anyway. Uh, Quinn wrote in. This is a good one. We have time for this, Jack. Three minutes. Three minutes. All right, so I'm not gonna get to, um, shoot. I'm not gonna get to the Koji stuff, but we'll do Quinn. Quinn writes in. I've got a food safety question. You like food safety questions, Jack? Sure. Yeah, all right. I've got a food safety question. I often make stock in my pressure cooker, putting protein and bones and vegetables in for a few hours. I don't even do that. I have to do like an hour. I'd never do it longer than an hour. The pressure go good, 2nd ring, 15 PSI. Anyway, when I'm done, I strain the solids and let the stock cool. I am not a restaurant with an ice machine, so I can't really put the container on ice to cool rapidly. After a few hours at room temperature, The liquid is usually cool enough to stick in my fridge without messing anything up too badly. I know this time spent in the zone. that's the danger zone is suboptimal, but given that the product was pressure cooked, I feel like this is fine. So my question is, I've forgotten to put my stock in the fridge after a few hours. In fact, left it overnight at room temperature. I'm not sure about using it as is, but I'm wondering from a food safety perspective, it would be safe to use if I put the stock back in an empty pressure cooker for a few hours.
+
+[47:14] Uh, and I'm hesitant to throw out this beautiful stock, and I figured the chicken that went into the pot in the 1st place was teeming with baddies, which were eliminated by the pressure
+
+[47:22] cooker. So another trip to the pressure cooker should return to the product to a safe product. Thanks for the show, Quinn. Okay, look. Huge controversy on this with Michael Ruleman,
+
+[47:32] who on his blog, in I think 2011, um, said that he basically leaves his stock on the stove for like a week and then just reboils it before he's going to use it,
+
+[47:42] right? And McGee came in and wrote that, hey, this is unsafe, uh, because, um, you know, because things can grow in it. And if you don't, and McGee actually wrote about it in the New York Times in 2011. So McGee writes, I'll admit to violating the guidelines, the cooling
+
+[47:59] guidelines, in my own stock making, though, by a few hours, not days. When I cook a roast for dinner, I use leftover scraps and bones to get the start the
+
+[48:07] stock, simmer it while I cleaned up, take it off the pot and heat it right before I go to bed. At that point, it's too much trouble to cool it. So, uh, it won't warm up the, you know, everything else in the fridge. Instead, I cover the pot, leave it at room temperature, reheat it in the morning, about 8 hours later before straining, cooling, and refrigerating it, and my stock hasn't made me or my family ill either. And then the question is why is Ruleman survived? So he asked a food safety expert. why isn't Roman dead? And the food safety expert said, because Mr. Roman boils the stock before he serves it. Dr. Snyder was the guy who any active bacteria are killed by holding the stock for a minute or 2 above 150
+
+[48:41] degrees and botulos and toxin is inactivated by 10 minutes at the boil. But just quickly reheating a contaminating stock won't destroy the active bacteria
+
+[48:48] and toxins and you can make people sick. And his point is you can actually grow anaerobic bacteria in the bottom of an unstir stock pot. Anyways. So, uh, you have to kill the hell out of stuff, but like boil the hell out of
+
+[49:00] it if you want to want to do it, um, not do it that way. But here's the actual truth. You're not doing it any of this way. You're cooking it in a pressure cooker. Pressure cooker, if you're pressure cooking it for like, you know, 4050 minutes, uh, you're actually wiping out at that point the spores.
+
+[49:17] you've, in essence, candid. Here's what you need to do. Don't open the pressure cooker. Right? So if you're gonna go to bed or whatever, just don't open the pressure cooker. And if new bacteria can't get in, everything on the inside of that pressure cooker has been hammered. It is dead. So what you do is, is you take that pressure cooker. Let it let it cool down to, you know, 0 pressure. Then you can put it in cold water in your sink if you want to drop it even further and just let it cool down like that for a little while, then don't let it get too cold because then it kind of jelly up on you. But down when it's closer to room temperature, when you can put it right in the fridge, right? Open it up. Now it's contaminated because you've let stuff into it. Now you strain it, and then you can put it directly in the fridge without worrying. That's the way to do it with a pressure cooker. In general, at home if you don't have a lot of ice and you want to get within the window, just kind of like, it's 2 and 2 here because you're about to contaminate it more, but at the same time, you know, you kind of win in other
+
+[50:18] ways. What you want to do is get the biggest, widest thing that you have and pour your stock into a very thin layer and that thin layer is going to cool off a lot thicker than a
+
+[50:29] stop, sorry. It's got to cool off a lot faster than something thicker is. And so you can get stock cool very quickly if you pour it out into thin sheets and then do it. If you ever should need to cool something down really quickly. And then as an alternative, if it's out, you don't need to pressure cook it again for another hour, just bring that sucker back up to a boil, boil it for like 10, 15 minutes, then
+
+[50:52] strain it, cool it quickly, and get it in the fridge. I hope that helps. We'll try to finish the next ones on the 2nd on the 200 anniversary episode. Coding issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 c 3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:06] ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Fishes, fish, vodka. Oh, you did, yeah. Got me on this
+
+[0:37] corner, and I don't know where I'm at. Supposed to meet my baby I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. You're listening to Heritage radio network. This is Dave Arnold. Hello, you're listening to hello and welcome to a late... Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Your Shoes. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on Tuesday. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues 100th episode live on the Heritage Radio Network. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Andre hosted cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 on the Heritage
+
+[1:34] Radio Network. Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday. Lord, they're cooking issues on the Heritage Radio Network in the back of. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Call it live at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. It's Dave Arnold cooking issues coming to you live every Tuesday on the back of her board of 33 in Bushwick, Brooklyn, here with Nastasia the Hammer, Lopez, and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. How you guys doing today? Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. Whoa! Nice. Hello, hello, hello, hello, and welcome to cooking. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from
+
+[2:13] Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Wow. Wow. Wow.
+
+[2:24] Oh, man. That's strong sauce right there. That's good. Plus also, 200, 20, 200 shows. Yeah, I have to thank Declan Christenberry, the intern here who put that together. That was pretty sweet. I don't even need to say it this week. Is the 1st week I didn't never need to say it? I actually set it into the mic before I knew what was happening. Yeah, for listening, because you can't see it, but the song was playing and Dave thought his mic would come on at the time it usually does. started yelling and nothing happened. Yeah, I punched into it. I was like the, hello? Punching into it. Wow, well, so this is our 200th episode. Apparently, champagne's gonna arrive. see it coming. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. And as you know, the surest way. Most of you know the many things, the many, many, many things that Nastasia hates. Oh, just name it. You hate it. Biscuits. puppies. But the one thing Nastasi does love. Hey, we got pow pow here. I was like, have a seat. Oh, no problem. So the one thing that Nastasia actually does enjoy is champagne, I have to say. Is that true or false? Oh, no, she didn't bring the CFA? That's all right. Well, get some from the restaurant. Jackson, he'd get us some. Oh, yeah. All right. Here we go. All right. So also we have some, just if you're talking to me, I'll be getting champagne. Oh, yeah, well, how long is it going to take you? He's gone. He's already gone. And we have some delicious, uh, we have some delicious meals from the underground, uh, meats collective. What do we have here? Do we have, did they give us a list of what this is? Summer sausage. This one's a chorizo, and then the other one is the... this guy. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah, what cheese are they sent? Oh, and pickled beets, especially for you. with your love of Yasmin, right? Okay. So, uh, hello, paw pow, you got your mic here? You got your earphones on? How you doing? I'm good. are you? Doing all right. are you up to? I haven't seen you in a long time. It's been a while I live in Boston now. It's a good town. It's a good town. So, but it's like, it doesn't really exist anymore, right? It's just been blanketed under. It's like Atlantis. I was gone for most of February, so I missed all the snow. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, it's bananas there, right? It's so I was gone from most February and I heard about all the snow, but honestly, when I got back, it was
+
+[4:46] like... Oh, it's fine now? I mean, I gotta like the fact that, I mean, well, the guys up in Madison and like anyone we have that listens in
+
+[4:54] Minneapolis. Yeah, week and puny, but, you know, the mayor of Boston had to come out on the internet and say, you know, don't don't jump out of the windows.
+
+[5:04] Do you see it? Because people are just jumping out of their windows. Did you see the guy doing a free a freestyle swim in the snow? It's pretty awesome. He didn't get very far, though. All right, listen. This is the 200th episode. Call in live two. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497212. You are mutilating the summer sausage. This is not right. You have the wrong night. You're absolutely. Oh, nice. Nice. Nice. And we have the Pleasant Ridge Reserve cheese. Nice. We're having a pleasant little pleasant little 200th here. 200 is a freaking lot, Stas. Wait, tell everybody what you did last night. What did I do last? You watched The Bachelor for the first time. Okay, here's the deal. So I was I got caught in a snowstorm. Actually, I couldn't make it back. I was supposed to cook dinner for the, actually, the fellow that makes the seersals. like our factory contact in China on Sunday, and he Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. And he, I couldn't make it because we spent like 7 hours going, what was normally a 2 hour tour. Anyways, so we had to postpone until Monday. like, well, we can do it Monday, but I'm going to have to, like, turn on the
+
+[6:05] Bachelor. I was like what? He's like, 1st of all, we're like, listen, where you come from? Do you watch TV during dinner? Would you ever turn on the TV during unless it's Super Bowl? Super Bowl. Or the news. I guess my son watched the news. I don't know. But like we have someone coming from all the way from China to come over to the house for dinner there, right? You don't turn on the TV. So then I had to record it for her and then I had to watch it. Do you know that this show is wretched? It's a horrible show. I know, it's terrible. Jack, do you like the Bachelor? Thanks. Cheers. No, no, I don't like it. Yeah. Right. It's horrible show. I'm sure that people like it. Stas likes it for one. What is it that you like about? Thank you. Cheers. ers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers everybody. What is it that you like about that program? Oh, it's a train wreck. Yeah, but why do you? Because it's interesting. Like, there's plenty of train wrecks. Plenty of train wrecks. my own life. I don't need somebody else's train wreck. Thanks, Jack. Ooh, beautiful. What we drinking here? We are drinking we're drinking at Prosecco. You know this one? Papa? Yeah, sorry, we went Prosecco instead of champagne. Whatevs? It's got bubbles in it. Okay. So, Aaron Morgan wrote in at cooking issues. Can you discuss or chat issues on the show? Insoluble settling to the bottom of my otherwise delicious beverage. Well, You got a couple of problems here. You're, uh, you know, so what we're talking about here is not that, like, chew and nut variant, probably, but like the rice variant, or chata, the beverage. Well, I'm presuming that you have a decent blender. you can blend the hell out of you. You just need to strain that sucker better. Look, at the bar, you know, we had some people working on, um, Orchard, as, uh, of course, we cheat. We spent at the center for you. So you get all the particles out, but, you know, you probably don't have one. I'm just saying, probably not. So, like, most people, I think you just need to strain it through something a little bit finer, like a cheesecloth, and it should get rid of some of that stuff. And if you're talking about that's grit, if you're just trying to stop the settling out of starches,
+
+[7:56] well, then you're a little more SOL, you're going to have to stabilize it with a
+
+[8:00] stabilizer, because otherwise, I mean, that stuff will probably settle over time. Any uncooked starch will settle over
+
+[8:06] time. you just need to need to stabilize it. Anyway. Oh, it's David Dagen. Tasanari, I saw, he saw an article. It was hilarious. Do you remember back when I said that Dax spilled wasabi oil all over the kitchen and then got it in his eyes and was running around going, my eyes, my
+
+[8:24] eyes? Well, they have, uh, someone in Japan made a, uh,
+
+[8:29] a smoke detector that, I guess, I don't know whether it's for people who are deaf or whatever, that sprays you with wasabi oil so that you get up. Oh my god. And you're like, man, you're like, what the hell? Like, why would you do that to someone has a way to, I mean, like, wouldn't it, like, electroshock be better? At least that's over. I guess. Would you rather get zapped? No. You'd rather have wasabi oil sprayed in your eyes? No, if you're sleeping. If it gets in your eyes, then you like you feel it. I feel like you would wake up in a bad mood. You'd wake well, you'd wake up, you'd blink, and you'd run around screaming about, like, your eyes burning. I mean, the stuff's that's no low. sound like a good start to your day. I mean, I mean, like, look, admittedly your house is on fire. So you need to get out. But, like, how many, how many times, a brief poll? How many times have you guys had fire alarms,
+
+[9:18] fire like detectors go off in your house? How many times? A ton. ton, right? Jack? How many times? Not that many. Like more than one? Yes, more than one. Okay. And how many of those times was your house on fire and you needed to evacuate? zero. Okay. So that's how many times you would have been sprayed in the eyes with wasabi oil for no apparent freaking reason. Not a good idea. Um, and uh, regarding the uh, croissant variants we were talking about, I think, last week. Timothy Helmuth writes in. Would not a pork rind croissant be a chichurassant? What do you think? Chichurasson? Yeah, like it. Chichroissant? yeah. I told him that's impossible to say 5 times fast. It can't be done. All right, here's one for. yeah, come on. I mean, as a professional. So, uh, since go back here, we have a questionnaire. Hi, Dave, Jack, and Nastasia, what are your favorite farmers markets in New York City? I'm moving to New York City soon and would love to live in a neighborhood that has a good market within biking distance. Cheers, pier. Well, I mean, look, Union Square. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one that you can guarantee that you can get what you need. And if you can't, you can call the folks ahead of time and make sure that they bring the stuff that you need. It's there more days a week than any other. You know, but the good news is, is that Union Square is biking distance from pretty much anywhere
+
+[10:40] between, like, the 40s even where you are stars, right? All the way down to where I am. Like I have, like when it's tomato season, I live in the Lower East Side. So it's about, oh, I don't know, 40 minute walk from where I live and about like a 10 minute bike ride or something like that. So I have my bag, especially tricked out with a hard internal shell to store
+
+[11:01] tomatoes, and then I have like special like, like lofted blankets that I like interleave in the bag and then have it like... And then you ride a wreck, he said. A what? You ride a wreck. Oh, yeah, I ride like straight bolt erect like I'm from Holland. You know what I mean? Because I don't want those tomatoes to get damaged. So like I ride like a nut job to get to the place to get the tomatoes because I don't bike for fun
+
+[11:24] people. I'm getting somewhere. And then like, you know, but then on the way back, I am merely a machine that carries tomatoes to my house. And like any other thing that I do is incidental to that. So I have to breathe and my legs have to move. Otherwise, the tomatoes will be. why don't you grow tomatoes? I think I might. I have some property in Connecticut, but there's this most people's tomatoes. Look, I mean, I've eaten the Union Square green market, I've gotten a scads of tomatoes there, and there's really 2 tomatoes that I would be willing to go to extraordinary measures to get, and they're both by this one farmer who's got this great dirt in
+
+[11:59] old Japan, New Jersey, and there's hardly any farmers
+
+[12:02] there because the land's worth too much. And so, you know, they're like a holdout, but like no one else can really start a farm there. And so I like their Aunt Ruby's, uh, German greens and I like their, uh, their, you know, German stripes. And I mean, they have other good tomatoes and other people make good tomatoes, but like that's kind of
+
+[12:20] like that's the tomato. When I think I want a tomato right now. That's the one that I'm going for. You know what I mean? All others are 2nd and third. And hey, and I'm not one of these guys because that's stupid to say this is the best tomato. This is my favorite tomato on the earth that I've ever had. So someone could give me a tomato one day that, you know, hit me in the head with a baseball bat and be like,
+
+[12:38] well, you're an idiot. You've been thinking for the past, you know, however long you've been alive that you know what a tomato is, but in fact, it's this other thing, but it hasn't happened yet. But that said, Union Square is pretty easy shot via Subway. moving to Brooklyn. Does it say Brooklyn? Does it say Brooklyn? For some reason. All the subways are there. I think you have ACE and some numbers and the L. Yeah, but then a lot of neighborhoods have like one or 2 a week. Like Tompkins Square Park has like a fairly okay one, like a couple times a week. What about the one up by used to us? Hell's Kitchen. 43rd and 10. Yeah. But Union Square's the one. Jack, what about Brooklyn? Bring the Brooklyn home for us. Um, there's a, there's one in Greenpoint. the McCoric part. I have to find out the name. Is it good? Yeah, it's great. I used to go when I was hanging out in Greensburg. How many days how many days a week is that? I will get more information. McGorlick Park. that's it I hope this helps. But for those of you, like, for anyone that knows, like, Union Square is the Mac
+
+[13:38] daddy of the green markets. Um, and it runs on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays. That's the other good reason. It runs so many days a week. Now, not all of them are big, but like it runs all those days. Okay. Uh, two, Dear Dave and the cooking issues crew. I like this stuff. Now you're just crew. Crew. I was hoping you could go over how to season stainless steel and keep it clean. I always try to season my pans on the stove, but they inevitably end up with a yellow ring of sticky oil around the rim of the pan.
+
+[14:09] Have you encountered this problem? Oh, hell yeah. Of course. Have you kind of a problem? Also, how do restaurants keep their cookware so clean? A lot of freaking oboe grease. Like really hardcore dishwashers are scrubbing the hell out of stuff is how you, you know, if you're going to do
+
+[14:22] it, is how you do it. Um, I usually use steel wool on my pants to try and maintain them, but oftentimes it's just
+
+[14:28] futile as some black and brown spots seem to be burnt on so well that this doesn't help. Is this damaging to the pan? I seem to be able to handle cast iron seasoning cleaning, but stainless steel poses a much larger problem. Thanks so much. I think you've answered this question a long time ago, but I was hoping you could repeat it as I can't seem to find it. I'm working my way through the backlog. Oh my god, I can do that. Imagine working your way through this backlog. Backlog, I've only made it to about episode 160. Man, that's fortitude. Wow. So I hope nobody has asked you this question in the last 40 episodes or so. Love the show. Keep up the good work. Tyler Simons, UC Davis food signs. All right, Tyler, here's what I think. I just think you, like, it takes an unbelievable amount of like scraping with braces to get the, to get the stuff off. I mean, um, like a lot of times back when I was at school at the FCI, like once a week, they would take all the pans out and then spray them with a very highly
+
+[15:18] basic like oven cleaning solution and then like let it sit and then soak the stuff
+
+[15:23] off like they were doing oven cleaning. Now, do I recommend that you spray, like, I mean, I don't know, like maybe you have kids around the house, like maybe that stuff is obnoxious.
+
+[15:33] Mr. Muscle. Yeah. but do you use that stuff anymore? Uh, we do a little bit. Yeah, but it's like, you use it like at the end of the week to knock the stuff off, but like, a lot of times our pots,
+
+[15:43] like, they go in for a heavy soak, and then don't use the, don't use the cruddy, well, it's not cruddy for what it's good for, but don't use the thin or the Brillo style thin
+
+[15:52] guys. And the reason is they work really well when they're very, very fresh, but then you have to constantly pull and
+
+[15:56] retough them to get them. Otherwise they clog with the own grime that you're getting out and then you might as well be using something puny. I would get the, um, larger, uh, like the ones that look like they're made out of little razor blades, like choreboy
+
+[16:10] guys, and, uh, they come in copper if you're worried about scraping things, but don't, I just get the stainless ones. get the stainless ones. The other ones that kind of rust out. But those ones that feel kind of like a hairnet made of razor blades, like those guys, when you soak, you scrape the heck out of it and you have to go over it a bunch of
+
+[16:25] times and as a last resort, I would use a basic kind of thing that eats everything away, but that's, you know, that's kind of all there is. Another alternative. If you are gonna self-clean your oven, you can throw stainless steel, like a hardcore, good stainless steel riveted pan into your oven on self-clean and just, you know, because it's an even heat, so you're not going to warp it out. Although I've never done that because you know, I've never owned an oven with a self-clean. You ever own a number of stuff, man? I don't have an oven. Don't have an oven. I don't have a, no. In an oven? I don't have kitchen. No kitchen? Do you have like a hot plate? I have an induction burner that I don't use. I have a toaster oven that I use for frying. What? You have a toaster oven used for frying? Not at the appropriate use. This is a, how does it even work? You just stick the oil in the toaster oven in like a cup, wait for it to get really hot and then throw like 2
+
+[17:15] franchising. I usually do dumplings, frozen dumplings, oil, the
+
+[17:21] tray, and I just, pull my eyes and put it in there, and then I open the window in case it ignites, and my plan is to throw it out the window. Has it ever ignited? Not yet. It makes it's making sounds, though. I almost ignited. I almost caught my kitchen on fire today because, you know, I built the, I talked about it on the show. I built this coffee roaster and normally my coffee roaster, like, I can, I have to crank it. So I built a motor because, you know, I feel that I deserve to be able to walk away from my coffee roaster when it's roasting.
+
+[17:49] So I have a whirly pop popcorn maker and I put a motor on it. Turns out I don't deserve that because someone wrote equestrian in and they were going to get to later and I got so engrossed, like reading the article that they sent me that I totally forgot that I, and so
+
+[18:03] like, I'm like, that's weird. I can smell coffee and it smells really dark roasted and my hood's on. So something, and I walk in like the whole kitchen was like filled with smoke and they were all like little black kernels of nothingness.
+
+[18:14] Oh my god, it was awful. I had to literally, you know, once coffee gets to a certain temperature and it's roast, it just keeps on going, like the pyrolysis.
+
+[18:22] And so like it was just going and going, even when I turned it off, I had to put the doubts to pan and water, nightmare, nightmare, the
+
+[18:27] inside, total sludge. I haven't had coffee yet today. I'm in, like, I'm like... Champagne wishes. Yes. Well we're celebrating. I'll have coffee with lunch, you know? I like to invert things. I'm one of those guys. I'm not one of those guys we, I can't have my dessert until after I eat my meal.
+
+[18:45] you like that? Not at all. No? Play you, stars. I have to have dessert less. Uh, this is not the stars I know. I've seen you eat like £18 of candy as an appetizer. I'm eating an almond croissant and alternating sips of coffee in this Prosecco, so that's where I'm at right now. Jack, you are living the freaking dream, brother. Yeah. Hey, speaking of living the dream. I now have a pickup truck. How about that? Getting closer. getting closer and closer. More tomatoes in that truck. All right, tomatoes. I got to look. I got a labrador. I got some forest land. I got a pickup truck. I'm almost set. very close. Shotgun. Need a shotgun and a pontoon boat and then I'm good. Anyway, uh, seriously, like what else do you need? Nothing. I got an apartment in the city, a place out. I got everything. Everything you can ever want. I can think of things. Like what? can't talk about in the air. Yeah, right. No, no, I'm curious. I have to wait till the show's over and figure out what it is. Okay. Dave, I purchased a Sears all and use it at my home in LA works really well. Great product. Thank you. Question I have. I live and work in Tokyo and go home every few months. And I'm considering to purchase a 2nd seers all to keep at my apartment in Tokyo. I can get one and a Burns Mattic in the US and bring it back with me, but would prefer not to carry a propane tank in my luggage.
+
+[19:59] You should not do this. You should, I'm just go ahead on record and say you should not put propane tanks into your luggage.
+
+[20:06] Although I've said this on the air a bunch of times. Like, some of their rules are crazy, like that you can't bring the nitrous cartridges for whipped cream with you because every single seat
+
+[20:15] is, like, has 2 or 3 of those of the CO2 versions in the life vests that are underneath you. You know what I mean? So playing fill with compressed, you know, gas cartridge. The propane is different story, man. So yes, do not do that. So when I search around in Japan. They have a butane slash propane mixed fuel canister, um, sold by Coleman. Coleman's not really a manufacturer. Coleman, like they license out their tank stuff. So like here, I don't know whether I should get into snap, but Coleman here in the U.S. tanks are actually made by Worthington, the parent company of
+
+[20:46] birds, whatever. don't care. Anyway, doesn't matter. Nobody cares. So anyway, I see it as well as other Japanese camping brands such as Snow Peak, which are of high quality, but no propane only versions. These canisters are squat, so seem equally sturdy to the US ones. I also found an adapter that will connect the Burns mag to these Japanese canisters, so all good there. Please let me know your thoughts on the butane slash propane fuel, and whether that should be fine with the
+
+[21:12] seresole, or will it cause problems with it, easy with the mess screen. On a related note, I also have your liquid intelligence book. Very much enjoy both the well researched fax info, as well as your writing. Thanks. Stas hates it. Stas will not read it. Uh, yeah. I 1st come across your writing and cooking issues blogs. I figured your cocktail book would be great. Thanks and best regards. Leo Ishibashi, Tokyo, Japan, and La Canada, California. La Canada. Have you heard of La Canada? Oh, La Canada. Oh, la Canada. La Canada. What, Canada? What, Canada? Oh, man, a bunch of people in California are like crap on this dude. Bang. Just lay logged off the show. Look Canada. Done. Anyways, um, okay. Here's my thoughts. As many of you know who have ever like had a corporate thing or a company, I cannot, under any circumstances, recommend that you use an adapter to attach a torch to another
+
+[22:09] canister. I will say this on a strictly technical level. Because I can't, the reason I can't assess the safety. I can't assess anything. There's nothing I can't assess any of it. So I can't recommend that in fact, I have to strongly urge anyone to not do it, right? That's just like my obligation as someone who makes things that have fire involved. I have to tell you that. However, on a strictly technical basis, propane butane mixes should not hurt the screens in
+
+[22:37] the seresols. If it actually is propane and not like the map gas stuff, which is like a different mixture, but the
+
+[22:45] butane and propane shouldn't cause a problem to the screens. However, I can't assess the safety of the rig with the adapter and the extra height and or whether the
+
+[23:00] next, see, like the, like Worthington, uh, and Burns and Maddox specifically manufacture their torch,
+
+[23:07] like uh, tank combinations, such that if something dire happens to them, their failure mode is such that you don't blow up. And so I can't necessarily guarantee that that is the same when it's connected to a different
+
+[23:19] canister vine adapter. I mean, eyes can't guarantee it. So, you know, I always, you know, err on the side of going hyper safe, but from a strictly from a will of screens blowout, Probably not. Yeah, fair. Okay. Am I going to get in trouble for saying that? Am I right? Nope. I never know. Sometimes people are like, why do you say that, Dave? Anyway. Greetings from Madison. I'm sure you've heard about this by now, but just wanted to hear your reaction to this bit of news in the quotes, the news quotes. It's like your vegan face and news quotes. Oh, someone sent in a, have you seen this like cooking for vegans and other horrible people? This lady who has this like podcasting. But you should watch it because, you know, kind of... I won't cook for them, though. Well, I know, but she just cooks for them, but makes fun of them mercy the whole time. Anyways. Um, I'm sure you've heard about this bit of news. A study in nature, I try to get a hold of the article, guys, but like I couldn't because the person whose password I steal to get like access to real articles, I couldn't get in touch with
+
+[24:16] her for the article, but, yeah, well, I'm not going to call my mom out that I'm stealing her pet. Thank you. Stas, for calling my mom out on the air as allowing me to steal her password. She's like all nervous about it. She's like, don't tell anyone, they say, good job. We can believe. Yeah sure. A study of nature apparently has shown emulsifiers to be an issue in obesity and other health issues like chronic
+
+[24:40] colitis. Here's the link I haven't paid for it to read the full study. It looks like the researchers may have found some issues with carboxy methyl cellulose, CMC or like cellulose gum. And polysorbate, 80. Of course, Time magazine and others have picked up on this and are implicating any and all emulsifying ingredients, including
+
+[24:56] Kerry Gain and Xanthan, and other gums, et cetera. Pretty much my question is, is there any way of stopping science writers from being so bad at their jobs? Uh no. No, there's really not. And in fact, you know, I haven't had a, I haven't had a chance to read the full article yet. However, I read some of the rebuttals online to this article. So here's what happened. They, as normal, uh, they, the researchers, uh, and there's, you know, they seem to be very, you know, they're good research in nature, which is one of the best magazines like there is in terms of
+
+[25:29] peer reviewed science journals, but they started with the hypothesis that, um, that a lot of problems with, um, what they call metabolic syndrome in quotes, whatever the hell they mean by that, but like things leading to obesity and like, you know, problems
+
+[25:46] with, with metabolism down there have to do with a disruption of the ability of the mucus line, like the mucus lining, uh, you know, down there to prevent the, the bacteria, the naturally
+
+[25:59] occurring, and, you know, generally beneficial bacteria in your gut from being in direct contact with your, uh, with
+
+[26:05] your membranes, right? So what they did was, is they said, well, they posited that emulsifiers, maybe, because they are surface active and can act, you know, sometimes like detergents, but they have surface active properties, that somehow these are dorking with
+
+[26:20] the, uh, you know, the, the mucus, uh, you know, that's, you know, that's generally beneficial and healthy, and
+
+[26:27] therefore, uh, warping and or messing with uh, the microbiotic in your system, right? That's the theory. So what'd they do? They took some rats, a couple different kinds of rats, ones that were, um, uh, predisposed to having problems and ones that were normal with the koala types. And they fed them. And I think this is what I heard. One person, either water, as their, as
+
+[26:48] their, as their beverage of choice, or one% solutions of carboxing methyl cellulose and water, or one% solutions of polysorbate 80, and lo and behold, the ones that were fed large amounts of
+
+[26:58] polysorbate 80 and carboxing methyl cellulose, they had some problems, right? Uh, but I haven't got a chance to read the article, so I can't comment on it, but like all the things saying that emulsifiers might have caused the
+
+[27:10] problems. They tested 2 specific, as far as I can tell, they tested 2 specific ingredients, one of which
+
+[27:16] carboxing methyl cellulose is extraordinarily thick, depending which one they use, very highly viscous stuff at
+
+[27:22] one%. And so, like, part of the argument was that, um, part of the argument and one of the rebuttals was, look at, there was an increase
+
+[27:30] in, um, there's an increase in mucus destroying, uh, enzymes in the guts of these rats. And of course, there would be because you're drinking mucus. You know what I mean? Like carvoxine metal cellulos at one% unless they had a very thinned version. I mean, I have to read. don't know. In other words, I'm in the dark. What I'm not in the dark about saying is, is that it doesn't seem like this one study is, you know, says anything about emulsifiers in general. And it's one of these things where people are like, oh, well, carboxymental cellulose, which is
+
+[27:57] modified cellulose product, and poly sorbet 80, you know, which is another, you know, the synthesized thing. What about less thin? What about eggs? No one's like, well, eggs will wipe you out and give you all this stuff, right? I mean, no one's against those things as emulsifiers. We eat emulsifiers all the time. All the time from natural sources, and from, you know, added process sources. So there's a, I need to do a lot of research. There's a lot of hoo-ha around it, but, you know, uh, short answer, no, no way to stop people from writing bad stuff because it's very easy to say emulsifiers are
+
+[28:30] bad. Put something out, and especially when obesity is involved. Like whenever you have obesity involved or like bowel problems involved, people like are
+
+[28:39] been looking forever for, you know, why am I having this problem? Why are we having this problem? So if you could tack it on something, man. It's just going to blow up like wildfire? No, you can't stop it. Wish you could. Also, as Keith wrote that. Also, I made your hops tincture recipe, only cold infusion, since my whipper isn't rated for hot applications, and made grapefruit gin, hops, cocktails, done some hops, kombucha, and had
+
+[29:01] hops candy. Hops candy. Hmm. I think it'd be good. Pens. How much? Any other good culinary uses for hops you can think of? Hmm, I don't know. Hey, I actually have a color on the line. You want to hold that? Yeah, sure. Caller. Caller, you are on the air. Welcome to the 200th episode of cooking issues. Hey, congratulations. Thank you. Hey, this is Stephen Benzinger. I've called like 2 other times, but it's been a while. Um, but I had a quick question about, um, about a, like I'm a homebrewer. So, you were saying something about Hopkins, so, like, we have to say about that. Wait, but... You cut off for a second. Your home brewer, and I was talking about Hobson, then I missed a sentence. Oh, I was just saying, I mean, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about that. Um, I've had some options. They're pretty delicious. But, um, my question is, I'm actually, uh, like, I'm also a
+
+[29:57] meditative, and I'm actually trying to do 5 gallons, old press cops. Um, and I want to have it, um, with gear gas, uh, like, in an EO2, uh, but I want to try and make it, but it has, um,
+
+[30:12] like, essentially, but it doesn't have, uh, in it so that it's so bad. Uh, and I want to know what you, what you thought of that, how you would know about. You're cutting out a little bit, but let me see whether I can piece together what you're saying. You're gonna make a 5 gallon batch of cold uh cold brew coffee, right? Okay. And you want to put beer gas through it, but do you want it to be slightly carbonated or do you want to go with straight nitrogen? I think it's referred to straight nitrogen, but I'm interested to see both, to be clearly honest. I mean, the good news about carbon dioxide is that carbon
+
+[30:47] dioxide is going to provide a lot of the kind of bacteria static stuff. It won't wipe out yeast, obviously, but like it's gonna have some anti spoilage effects on it. Uh, but it's gonna taste carbonated then. There's no way around it, you know? Whereas, I don't think, for instance, like what would be delicious would be nitrous. And I'm not saying that since you're a med student, you can get a hold of nitrous, but I'm telling
+
+[31:12] you as a med student, you can get a hold of nitrous. Please don't abuse the nitrous. By the way, the vast majority of people, you can't really OD on nitrous. The way you kill yourself with nitrous is you put a mask on, and you pass out with the mask on your face, and then you don't have enough oxygen, and you asphyxiate yourself. That's how you die with it. So like, you know, like the, the, you know, the classic bag huffer is not going to take themselves out this
+
+[31:38] way. But, uh, nitrous. Nitrous is great for pushing things and for making things really creamy and bringing kind of body back to coffee beverages. I use it in coffee beverages all the time. And you can get small med tanks of it. And you, I know this from experience. You can attach them to corny kegs, and you can pump out with nitrous. Now, I don't know because I've never studied it because I never try to do it for long-term storage. I don't know if nitrous has any of the same kind of uh, bacteriostatic properties that, um, CO2 does. Now, another thing, which I think you alluded to, is that you could just add crap to it to kill stuff, right? Um, so most of the things that you add, that kill things, and, you know, they, uh, I'd have to go
+
+[32:26] look because uh, Piper was doing all the research on that on like the little bit of uh, Benzowit and the, um, but you can kind of taste that crap. You have to use a small one. agree. And actually, when I when I make beer, all you do is make sure that you have a completely sanitary practice, so you're reducing the number of bacteria that actually go into the end
+
+[32:44] product. So what I was thinking, I don't know if poppy and the affinity, if it would actually
+
+[32:50] expect, do you, uh, bacteria acidic, but I'm not, I'm not 100% sure. Well, I know that, look, I mean, clearly, if you've ever,
+
+[32:58] if presumably, you, as a med student, have experienced a cup of coffee that's been on a desk for 2 weeks.
+
+[33:06] So you know that you know that things can grow on top of coffee. But in general, there are molds. So it's like the molds in the yeast, things I think you're going to have to worry about. So you just have to make sure that whatever environment you have is not conducive to those things growing. And so I don't, like, I don't know if, like, a, you know, a nitrous environment or a pure nitrogen environment. The other thing is like, would it hurt it? Like if you if you kegged it, right, you can kill that stuff at a fairly low temperature, but is that going to kill your flavor to heat it up to the temperature where you pasteurize out and kill your
+
+[33:39] yeast and molds and stuff? Because that's what's gonna get you. You know what I mean? Right. And I was wondering, refrigeration temperatures, if I would even have an issue with that, because, yeah, I've definitely seen stuff grow on coffee, but with the acidity and with the low temperature and things like that, I was curious
+
+[33:54] if I would be able to get away with it. I don't see the reason why I'm not adding milk because I know that I'm going to have bacterial issues with that. Well, if you're going to keep it in the fridge, I mean, I would love to have someone who has more experience
+
+[34:06] with like long storage of, of, uh, cold brew, but I think you're probably going to be okay. I mean, how fast can you drink 5 gallons of coffee? Well, I have a lot of med students that come over and study with me, so probably pretty quick. Yeah. I would say you're fine. What do you guys think? Okay. I mean, I don't know. Tal and error. Trial and error. Well, I mean, in other words, like, you know, I don't know what's going to grow. I think in general, something like that, I'm fairly confident in saying that it will become unpleasant before it will kill you.
+
+[34:36] And so, uh, you know, I mean, yeah. And so, again, I would love for someone to correct me and point out where I'm wrong because I don't want to steer someone in safety advice in the wrong direction, but I wouldn't worry about it, but I would try to get a hold of some nitrous to push that stuff
+
+[34:52] through. I think you will be pleased. Okay, I'll give that a shot, and I think actually, uh, nitrid. Well, well, it's considered anaerobic, right? So, uh, any Arabic bacteria. Is it? I don't know how available the oxygen is and I don't think it's very available. I mean, because it only becomes available like in cars when you're combusting it. You know, I don't think it's generally oxidizing. You know, I've stored stuff with nitrous for a long time and I don't get oxidation in fatty things, for instance, in whipped cream canisters in my fridge for a long time. They don't, you know, get those kind of oxidized flavors. Remember, though, when you're doing, when you're doing the nitrous, what I would do is attach it to
+
+[35:35] the wrong side, attach it to the liquid draw, just for... Yeah. And then pull pull the Sicorny kegs for those you that haven't had one before, have a pull ring safety vent on the top. You have to make sure it recedes. Otherwise, there can be kind of touchy, especially on old used ones, but just, you know, vent
+
+[35:58] it and then bubble through the bottom, so you're forcing and bubbling all of this, you know, stuff out of the coffee into the atmosphere, then let it go, then do your
+
+[36:07] hardshake to nitrous carbonate, and then it should push fine. you can push it whatever pressure you want. Okay, excellent. And, and, um, uh, one more one more comment. The only, with the nitrous, the only thing I, you said that you were available the oxygen was? I'm just curious if there are any bacteria outside that can actually metabolize. I don't think so. Nitrous? I don't think so. I've never heard of anything I mean, look, CO2, not only is the oxygen not like, you know,
+
+[36:35] going to get, it just, it also like it itself, its presence is, is, you know, harmful to many beasties. You know what I mean? So, whereas I don't know about nitrous. I mean, it's not going to support aerobic growth. I'm fairly confident in saying that. I mean, I'm 100% common saying that, but I don't know that it has any beneficial destructive properties to
+
+[36:58] things, the way CO2 does. Right, CO2's bacteria is idol and nitrous might not be. Okay, excellent. Would you like me to post any pictures, uh, on, like, the tweet them out to you or anything? Yeah, tweet them on over. I love that stuff. love seeing things. Sweet. All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you. All right. Oh, taking a course break? Coming right back with cooking and juice. Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack. as in Jack from Cooking Issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking. on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[37:38] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further
+
+[37:46] resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking about. Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[37:56] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chef, scientists, and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place,
+
+[38:18] molecular.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[38:26] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely right up your alley. That's the Jackie Molecules. Jackie music right there. Jackie, do like Jackie Molecule says. Go to molecular recipes.com. Jackie molecules. You're going to start a band. You going to be the front man? going to be Jackie molecules? Definitely. In the molecular band. Great name. Yeah, and Jackie Molecule. All right. So, finishing out the thing about hops, Keith was saying that he couldn't do the hot hops, tincture with the, so what I do in my hops, tincture as I do, a hot one 1st to extract the
+
+[39:11] bitterness, right? And then I do a cold one that gets more of the aroma. So I get kind of like the similar, you know, similar to, you know, similar to like how you make beer, if you're going to, you know, um, ad hops afterwards. So, um, good news for you is that all of the ISI whippers, assuming you have
+
+[39:28] one of the professional ones and not the white ones, the ones that are
+
+[39:32] stainless, um, they're all fine with heat. The ones that are insulated, they say it are for hot foods. It's not that they're stronger, it's just they're insulated so that they keep temperature longer. In fact, they're a detriment to you when you're trying to do hot work because the heat doesn't transfer from the simmering pan as quickly as it would with
+
+[39:53] the, um, uh, you know, as it would in a regular one. So assuming you have an actual AC branded unit and not an off brand unit, you can go hot. So just don't worry about it. I mean, like, I saw, when I was in Austria, I saw the tests on their, on their units, when they actually hook them up to like, like, large amounts of pressure and blow them
+
+[40:14] out, and there's like a, the bottom indense 1st and then, then all sorts of untoward things happen to it before it ruptures. So there's a lot of safety involved in it, regardless of what you may have seen when I put a blowtorch on one when I was doing that nachos
+
+[40:28] thing, which I don't recommend. Remember that? Remember how angry that guy was? I wasn't there. You didn't go to that ship? you and Rebecca? You didn't go? Anyway, so like, you know, I kept on saying that I might blow up the guy next to me and he was not happy. He was not, because the guy was just trying to write something about hip hop. He was trying to write about hip hop or sneakers at complex. First he feeds that complex. And so the guys, like, literally, like, I guess, because they, what are they? They have hip hop, they have sneakers, what else they do? Hey, Jackie molecules. What do those guys do besides like hip hop and sneakers? and 1st we feast, you know? That's about it. No, I don't know. It's a website and yeah, that you pretty much nailed it. Yeah, you know what? Like, I was trying to explain it, Dax, like, old, old hip hop from when I was a kid. and like versus like the stuff that started coming out, like, um, in the late, late 80s and early 90s. I was like, it was so much more innocent. It was just like, you know, my sneakers, my sneakers, my sneakers, my sneakers. And he was like, and so now he thinks that's like an actual rap song. I was like, no, it's just like, you know, my sneakers in my tracksuit. Like, that's what was important back in the day, you know? I'm teaching a wine class at the end of this month, and it's called maps on wraps on maps, and it's taking the idea of the concept of terroir, and how
+
+[41:37] can how is a wine supposed to express where it comes from, and using hip hop as the
+
+[41:42] analogy, because we know where all of these hip hop artists are from, because they announce it over and over and over in their music. So I'm taking that format, taking it apart and teaching it as a way to introduce the idea of terroir.
+
+[41:53] So where are you going to teach this? Uh, so a friend of mine and I are putting together a wine festival in Boston called BTG by the glass and it's uh, taking place in Kenmore Square in Island Creek
+
+[42:05] oyster bar and then actually at the restaurant that I am at right now, which is Rabelle in Brooklyn. So, yeah. It's a weekend of fun, forward thinking seminars, followed off by a sherry salon, and the next day we're doing like a
+
+[42:19] Smalley SmackDown brunch, a rebellion. And yeah, for those of you who have not, uh, hung out with Somaliers. Don't start. And then like, this don't start. awful bunch. Well, it's not that awful. It's just like, if you can't listen, you got to roll hard when you roll with
+
+[42:36] Somalias, they're crazy. Like, there's no, like, bartenders think that they're a hard drinking crew,
+
+[42:43] Somaliers are like bananas. Am I right? Probably. Yeah, there's nutty. Hey, Dave, so I have April on the line that wants to say hello real quick and then a question after that on another line. Cool, howdy. Hey, Dave. How you doing? I'm calling from Charleston, West Virginia. I'm doing great. and I hear you're celebrating your 200th anniversary, our episode
+
+[43:03] anniversary. It's awesome. Yeah, thanks. Just calling for congratulations or do you have a question for us? That is primarily the same. Giving a little shout out to you. That's nice. I appreciate it. Thanks, April. What's it, what's it good? What's it like down there now? Do you have snow down there now or are you good? Has she gone already? What's it like down there now? It didn't have a snow belt going off through there? I don't know. We have another call. My grandma was waiting, Virginia. What? Uh, caller. on the air. Hey, congratulations, Dave. Again, um, this question's more so about uh, creativity and uh, when you're, you know, I have liquid intelligence. It's a, it's excellent and I love it. And uh, when you're looking at, you know, solving problems when you're looking at, you know, coming up with the ideas. How does that start? You know, like when you're saying, do you start with the alcohol? Do you start with the problem or do you work backwards or, you know, how do you approach creativity in general? Well, I think it's a good question. Any any and all of that stuff. So, um, you know, like a lot of things come up because someone will say, hey, you're doing an event with X,
+
+[44:12] Y, or Z product. I'm like, really? Okay. And then you have to figure out something that you like with it. Or it can start with, um, it can start with, uh, you know, I have a particular thing. Like, I don't think gin and tonics are as good as they could be. And then you start working on that. Or it could be, um, a lot of times, you know, when
+
+[44:31] you're working, you notice, um, little differences that happen when you change a
+
+[44:36] recipe and then you exploit that and push that in a direction. And then sometimes it's like, I'm walking down the aisle in a, in a store, and I'm like, I have no idea what this tastes like. I'm going to buy it and then I'm going to figure out like what this can do that
+
+[44:49] I find interesting or other things or like problems like, um, I don't like a lot
+
+[44:55] of, uh, a lot of tea drinks because of the extringency in the back. So how can I mitigate that using knowledge that I already have? So it's kind of, it's everything. The important thing is to kind of always approach, approach things, um, like in a problem solving
+
+[45:10] manner, very rarely. Are you able to wake up and say, I need to come up with some new crap today, and then you can come up with that new crap. It's more, it's more like, um, someone will present something to
+
+[45:22] you. And once you go down the step of kind of analyzing what you have and where you need to
+
+[45:27] go, That's when you kind of figure out new ways to get there. Or if someone shows you something, if you have enough experience. So with, um, with, um, rapid infusion with the, uh, with the EC, with the
+
+[45:40] nitrous. That was because, that's a great technique. Oh, thanks. Well, somebody, you know, somebody sent me a video where he was using carbon dioxide in a soda bottle to inject marinade under pressure into
+
+[45:54] chicken strips. The guy's name was Mr. Phiz, I believe, on YouTube. And, um, you know, but looking at it, you know, in my mind, I saw the exact kind of an
+
+[46:08] exact, um, you know, analog to what happens in vacuum infusion. And so, uh, you know, for me, it was like, oh, because I was just, I was looking at that, trying to figure out exactly what's happening and then you can cross. So it's about, it's just about, um, paying attention, keeping track and like following things in an analytical way. It's very, very, very rare that you're just like, I'm going to come up with some new crap. What is it? In fact, I've tried to do that all the time. It doesn't work. I'm like I need a new technique. I ask people, I'm like, give me some problems. I'll fix them. Well, as a chef, you know, I, uh, I go through and, you know, you look at things from the past, you look at, you know, you try to think of future
+
+[46:46] things, and, uh, you know, I'm trying to think, you know, systematically put together, uh, thoughts on creativity and thoughts on where ideas come
+
+[46:54] from. For me, it's kind of a, it's always a process of everything that, you know, you see tastes here, but I just didn't know if you had a method or
+
+[47:01] technique, or, you know, it's like, uh, I've been to, uh, Booker and Dax and enjoyed cocktails there, and some of the things are just mind
+
+[47:08] bending and awesome. So just want to say thanks a lot and congratulations. Oh, thank you. And you know what? You know, it's a good movie to watch. I mean, no one can accomplish it because me, he's like the best at this kind of stuff, but in terms of organized creativity. Remember that a bully movie that we watched? I can't imagine wanting to watch that movie if you were not a cook. But if you were a cook, like watching the way that those guys just kind
+
+[47:32] of, like, very methodically tackle being the most creative cooks,
+
+[47:37] like, I thought was really interesting. I like left and I was like, I'm a schlub. You know what I mean? Like, remember that? I left. I was like, Stas, man, wishlubs. You know what I mean? And then, but I think it's good to watch. Just, um, you know, we can't, you know, obviously, you know, very few people can
+
+[47:53] attain like, uh, because the structure in the organization that he has around, um, kind of codifying and and, and being able to capitalize on the creativity of the people around him.
+
+[48:04] That's also super important. That's, I think, one of the reasons that Wiley was so successful is so successful, rather, what he does is that, you know, he'll break a, you know, he'll break a stick over your head if you don't record what you
+
+[48:18] do because then you can't repeat it. It's wasted. You know, it's wasted work. So... So I have one more caller and we are wrapping up. So let's... Oh, Jebus. All right. Color, you're on the air. Hi, thank you. Take my call, Dave. Cratulations. Thank you. Um, I had uh, was curious about using math gas with the Sears all. And like, uh, what's the, uh, I haven't really, I was looking online. I didn't really see much about that. Well, a couple things with map gas. So map gas are actually map Pro. Uh, has a couple of problems. One, the tanks are the wrong size. So for safety reasons, I can't recommend that you use map gas. I actually got a combo with the TSA 1000 that had a 16.9 map gas tank, which is why I'm asking.
+
+[49:05] Whoa really? So it's a fat map gas? Those guys are worthy and holding out on us. How long ago do you buy? It's from the Home Depot. Yeah, how long ago did you buy the seers all? Oh, I got it from a pre-order. Your screen will undoubtedly burn out. That Sears all is not designed to have map gas, and that
+
+[49:27] extra, like, couple 100 degrees that can hit that screen will burn out that that rear screen. We are working, uh, like, look, we're not approved on, uh, map gas. We're working on a rear screen that will withstand
+
+[49:43] it, uh, that will withstand map gas. Um, and we theoretically, Styles, am I right? We might sell the map gas rear screens. Yeah. And, you know, once we feel comfortable with the unit handling map gas, then we would have to also sell a foot to allow you, because most people, I think, only have access to
+
+[50:03] like the skinny map gas, we would have to sell a foot to make it. So I feel that it's safe to use it. Yeah, well, I use it with the propane and it's amazing. An amazing device. Well, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. All right. and I guess Jack's saying we're wrapping up. I'm going to have a... I'm going to have a bite of Johnny Summer sausage. Johnny Hunter's summer sausage. you like this? You having this home summer hush? And thanks for joining us. 200 episodes of cooking issues. Thanks, Pop Pow. Bye. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[50:49] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients, and tools.
+
+[0:08] Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:26] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, you're host of cooking issues and coming to your live from a British Pizzeria and Bushwick. Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly really late this time, though. Roughly 12, roughly, yay. 1245, 1250, 1255 depends on, you know, whether someone's coming in to record after us. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez, and Jack Ainsley in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Good. Good. I'm all alone back here Is that why you didn't have the time to put the Jackie molecules on? Or is that going to go on during the... We'll do that on the break. Jackie Molecules. Call your questions too, cooking. Not maybe not cooking. anything, right? Anyway, we'll take them all. We'll take any questions. I mean, look, there's some questions that will probably refuse to answer, but test us out. Call in 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Do you guys remember that like for the 1st year, I could not remember the number. Yes, I was just thinking that in my head. Yeah. And you guys would have to, literally, like, I couldn't remember the number, and they, uh, Jack and or Nastasia would have to write the number on a piece of paper. Yeah, and hold it in front of my face. I had like a mental block on the telephone number crazy. Maybe, you know, it's like, well, I don't know if I'm sticking around. I'm not gonna commit this number to memory. Yeah, you think that's what it was? I think so. Wow. You haven't committed my number to memory. That's because it's typed into my phone. Like, I know how to... What? I know yours, though. Oh, Mimi. Well, you're better than me, me, me. Dave, how many numbers do you have memorized? Yeah. I have like the my, like the number I grew up with in junior high, high school in college. My, my, uh, yeah, my, my mom's house number. It's still the house. Say same house. Yeah. And the 1st telephone number I had in New York City, I remember. 212-666 typo. Awesome, right? Two, two, 6, 6, 6, typo. I remember I remember numbers that existed prior to like when your phone stored all the numbers. You know what I mean? So, like, I remember very early cell phone numbers. Like my cell phone number, uh, I've been around a long time, my wife's cell phone number and her sister's cell phone number has been around forever. So I remember those. My dad's house. Yeah, that's it. It's pretty much it. I don't know my own house number. I don't know any of that stuff. I have to ask Booker what my house number is. But I do know the number of the Heritage radio network's call in line. And that is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So you get any good cooking things happen to you this past week? No. Nothing? No? You didn't cook anything? You haven't cooked? Yeah, every night, but nothing worth talking about. Wow. That's kind of depressing. No, I mean, you know, I make food. Last night I made eggplant for, I'm like, it's nothing. eggplant parm is not is not nothing. Did you make it from scratch? So you, well, how do you prepare the eggplant? do you do? Oh, just salt it so it sweats. How long? Not long because it's usually late. Do you press on it? No. You don't press on it? No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know why? Okay, look. The salting right starts drawing the liquid out, right? But you still have a really spongy, like a spongy thing going on with the eggplant. So when you squish the hell out of it, Well, the salting also helps you squish a little, but when you squish it, you're getting rid of some of the porocity, it's going to lead to the increased oil absorption. I don't put oil in the pan. What the what? Whoa, whoa, you what? I just heat the pan and then put the eggplant in there and like try it. Is it breaded? No. So this is not what I would consider eggplant. No, no, it wasn't breaded. didn't have time That's why I said nothing interesting food wise. This is more like an eggplant casserole. As you say, eggplant parm. holy crap, she's got a... no, no. Got to press the eggplant, got to bread the eggplant, got to fry the eggplant. Nope, but it was the bachelor finale last night. No, how'd that go? Did he choose the lady you wanted? Yeah. You watched The Bachelor, huh? Yeah. Yeah. It's like Christmas. It's like it brings people together. Please do not compare the bachelor in Christmas. Please do not compare. You didn't want you didn't feel compelled once you saw it last week. I felt compelled to never see it again. I felt compelled to never see it again. Wait, did you watch The Bachelor 2? I don't know how it happened was last week. Did we talk about this on the radio? All right. So we had the maker of the sears all and the soon-to-be mailed steak decorator and then the next 2 products actually, which you'll hear about in the next couple of months from Booker and Dax. You know, our manufacturer. I had him over at my house and we made him use the Sears all on a prototype steak decorator, by the way, because this guy didn't understand why he was making this product. We ever mention this on the air? Charles, the name of the guy is the project manager at the manufacturer we use was like, I don't really, I don't get it. I know why you want it useless, useless. I don't know. Who wants this? Anyways, so like we got him over and we made him cook a cook a steak, but Nastasia was like, well, I'm not coming over unless I can watch
+
+[5:18] The Bachelor. And I told her, you don't turn on the TV when someone's over at your house for dinner. This is like, I'm a human being 101. You know what I mean? This is like, I haven't grown up in a cave. I wasn't raised by TV owning wolves. I know how to behave around other human beings, right? So I was like, look, I am a believer in technique. She is not a believer in technology. Nastasia does not have any form. Nastasia only receives television that is broadcast to her through the air.
+
+[5:49] She will not accept any other form. She won't get it over the internet. She has internet. She has it, but she won't get TV via the internet. She, like, won't spend the $30 and no extra money ever on a Roku stick or on an Amazon
+
+[6:04] Fire. I don't know why. She's a Luddite. The same reason why she only listens to music that's picked by people that she doesn't know on the radio rather than, yeah,
+
+[6:15] she like Jack, you, your music professional, right? Yeah, right? If you made a playlist she wouldn't want to hear it. Any jerk.com who happens to, like, be, you know, get a get a DJ slot on any random, like, you know, radio station along some highway and some crap hole, right?
+
+[6:33] That person's opinion on what should play next on the radio? Valid? Yeah, valid. Anyways, so. That person also probably a computer at this point. Yeah, yes, yes. So anyway, the point being that I said, okay, look it. I have the ability to record this onto a computer and you can watch it at later at a later point. So I recorded The Bachelor for her to watch, but it was at my house, so she had to watch it at my
+
+[6:57] house. And so then I had to see it. But you had a book and you couldn't not watch it. That's not true. I couldn't pay attention. It was hard to pay attention. It's like... Because you're sitting there, like, making all kind of comments about people. I don't care about. These people are like compellingly stupid. I don't really see the difference between this. I mean, it's you're basically kind of making fun of humanity with this. Right. Which I don't know, it's kind of a base, it's base. I don't know. enough for it. Not for it. I get it. I don't really care what you watch. I mean, like, watch what you like. You know what I mean? I don't care. Not my thing, though. But how do we get on this? Cooking. Oh, yeah. So the bachelor was on last night so you couldn't make it. You know what? There's an interesting no fry recipe from the, you know, the new hip pressure. I know if it's out yet. Hip pressure cooker book. I don't know if it's out yet, but anyway, there's an interesting kind of pressure cooked eggplant Parmi style thing. Maybe I'll look up the recipe. If it's out, I can share it. and then we'll talk about that. You try that next time. Do you own a pressure cooker? What the hell is wrong with you? You know what, people? Listen. Like, we're doing this here. This is a 201st episode, right? How many times I talk about, like, saving time, efficiency, throughput with something like a pressure cooker. Nastasia is sitting next to me every single time. Have you missed one? One. I think one. There was one show you weren't here for. She called in for it. Now, I think there's one that she missed. There's one. totally missed. Yeah, one. Yeah. And, uh, no pressure cooker. Why? don't know. I don't know. Why are you so resistant? I'm not resistant. I just have limited space and that's a big... No, throw away another crappy pot you have, and use the pressure cooker instead. I use my pressure cooker about half the time as a regular pot. You know, and usually if you get a decent one. Look, we've pushed Coon Recon enough. by the way, in my life. You know how I've pushed Coon Recon so much. You know how much we've gotten from? Well there's Swiss, right? Oh, what's up, busting on this list? What's up, busting on the Swiss? Anyways, I think Nastasia should get a free coon recon. pressure cooker. That's all I'm saying. But, you know, the amount of crap that, I mean, I don't I own one already. I don't need it. You know what I mean? But whatever. Uh, so eggplant Parm, that's what you did. You know what? I think, let's listen. And I made s'mores with a seuzel. Oh, how was it? I didn't eat any. I gave it to my sister. Such a weirdo. such a weirdo. is wrong with you? didn't feel like it. It's like the roast Nastasia show. Well, it's I just, you know what? After all these years, I still just don't understand. using the thing that we built. Yes. good enough. that's true. Okay, listen, here, I think like everyone, a lot of people, you know, you get busy, you don't cook. I think you should take the time to try and make one interesting thing a week. I cook every night. Then why don't you try to make one of those things be new and outside of your comfort
+
+[9:55] zone and then we can talk about it. That's that's your cooking issue. did you make? I have to go back and mental. Oh, so this Sunday, what did I do this Sunday? I mean, again, nothing like, like, I did like, you like salt and pepper shrimp? I made salt and pepper shrimp. You know, where you, you know, the trick is to selling pepper shrimp? It's like the double fry. You deep fry. Right? Quickly, don't overcook the shrimp. Uh, and uh, with a with a little bit of a batter on it, right? And, you know, you could do the rice flour, cornflour, whatever. Light, right? Then, then you add the pepper, the hot pepper, and more salt, and then you stir fry it real quick, right before you serve
+
+[10:36] it, along with like the, you know, I also put in like chilies and scallions, stuff, stir fry real quick. And that's what makes it so crunchy, you just eat the shells. You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, everyone's like, well, if the shark and pepper is on the outside of shrimp, Dan, what's the point? Because it's not on the inside of the shrimp, and the only flavor I get out of it is the stuff from if I like suck on the heads or if I get the stuff on my fingers while I'm peeling the shells, which is gross.
+
+[11:01] If you're telling me that the flavor transfer you're getting is solely because you're licking your fingers after you peel
+
+[11:06] the shrimp. You've just told me it's gross. Is that gross? Yeah. My point being that, like, if you fry it right like that, you should be able to eat the shell. Which I do. I consume more than my fear of chitin. And I made my mom's escrow dish, which is like a go to on Sundays when I'm super busy. I like it. You like escrowing beans? Beans, meat, escrow, and biscuits, which I know you hate. Yeah. Anyway. So that's that's our New Year's that's our New Year's resolution late. Come in, you know. Well, no, 201 is like a new. It's our new. Oh, yes. Our 3rd century of cooking issues. Nice, I like it. Yeah, nice. Cooking report. cooking report. All right, let's get to some of the quick, what about you, Jackie? anything interesting? I made, uh, there was like a beat facility with some trumpet mushrooms. Wait, the pasta was colored with beets? Yes. So it had no flavor. Not any discernible flavor, no. Here's a little secret. Yeah, here's a little secret. Colored pastas, they don't taste any different. My friend just got a veggetti. That is the grossest word you've ever said. ever. Do you know what it is? Yes. What you describe to our... like a spiralizer for, for, veg. I want to be mostly only squash, though. Like, you can't really... Well, I mean, like squash, including, like, zucchinis. Yeah. Yeah. And you make like veggie pastas and stuff like that. Yeah, pastas. Uh, what kind of non-English speaker was like, veggetti? That's a good name. Vegetty. Jack, would you ever like knowingly eat something that came out of a veggetti? I'm not gonna answer that question. I'm not gonna answer that question. Oh, God, the getting. Moving on. Yeah. But anyways, answer the question, Jack. Well, look, look, what about Daikon? Daicon would be good in that thing, but not cook. But the stupid thing is it's supposed to be like healthy for you, but all the recipes
+
+[13:02] say, like, use the veggie and then fry the noodles and then, you know. Well, I hate any, I hate anything who's funny. No, but it's stupid. Yeah. Wow, the jetty. You just threw me for a loop. You threw me for a loop. I'll tell you what I don't like. Here's what I, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You know spaghetti squash? Spaghetti squash? In the 70s, right, when I 1st became aware of spaghetti
+
+[13:26] squash, because that's when I 1st became aware of anything, because that's, you know, I was born in 71. So, uh, what they would, people would do, and by people, I mean, my mom, who's a great cook, great cook, and
+
+[13:37] actually, I just went to her like, uh, I went to her, anyway, her, she just got honored recently because she started the pediatric
+
+[13:43] card transplant program at Columbia University. By the way, I did not realize this. Did the 1st pediatric cardiac transplant successful anywhere? Yeah. She did that? Yeah, she's a cardiologist. Look, here's the thing. Everyone, look, if for any surgeons that might be listening, you're not going to take an insult. everyone's like, oh, it's a surgeon, it's a surgeon. listen, the surgeon comes in, they cut the heart out. They put the new heart in. They sew it back together and then they're done. Like they care beforehand and afterwards, right? Is it going to be whether or not this person lives for a long time or doesn't? You know what I'm saying? Whatever. She's a cardiologist. Surgeon's a surgeon, cardiologist, a cardiologist. How many times I've had to go through that. Anyway, uh, my point is, uh, spaghetti squash. So my mom used to make the spaghetti squash, but the problem is spaghetti squash can be delicious if you steam the sucker, right, or whatever,
+
+[14:30] roast, whatever. Shred it into its little noodle litz, whatever you call those things. And then like butter, like lots of butter and other stuff, maybe some crunchy stuff in. You know what it's not good as? It's not freaking spaghetti. You don't put a can of or a jar of pasta sauce into the spaghetti squash. This is why they shouldn't have called it this. You know what I mean? Spaghetti squash carbonara. It's gross It's gross. It doesn't taste like spaghetti. And we should go back to, like, to go back to, what Jack was saying earlier. One of the few things I learned about making pasta. I mean, I may have made a lot, lot, lot of it, but you know, never I became very good at it, was that you could add anything to it to add color and it doesn't change the flavor.
+
+[15:14] So, you know, originally I would care what I added to it. And then eventually I'm like, ketchup, whatever. I want it to be red. I'm going to dump a bunch of ketchup in because it doesn't matter. Like, the vast majority of the ingredient is the flour, and you're not going to get any flavor out of it. all left in. A gray sauce? Yeah. You know, what does taste is like using
+
+[15:34] an alternate flour. Duh. Like, uh, you know, like the whole wheat ones or the far 0 ones or stuff like this. There's one that's made out of garbanzo beans now and it sounds gross. You have a vegan look on your face. pitched it to me because they were on a Shark Tank or something. They pitched you personally? Yeah, because they came to a pasta flyer when I was working there. Wait, so the dudes who were on Shark Tank the Show. Yeah, no, no, no. The guys who created this Garbanzu bean. Oh, we're going to go on Shark Tank. They were on Shark Tank. They got chosen and they won money from Dragon, whatever. So they pitched it to me and they were like, I was like, what's it taste like? And they're like, do you like hummus? And I was like, no. It would like completely like derail. Sometimes I really appreciate you. Who doesn't like hummus? No, I do. I just didn't want to eat into the. Oh, it's even stronger. What do you think about that, Jack? That's great. I have a caller. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Joel Esposito. How you doing? I'm doing good. Hey, I have a quick question. I want to build a precision boiler for making
+
+[16:42] coffee, and I started looking at like PIDs and heating elements and all that. Um, and my plan was to hook up like a, like a swivel valve to the bottom of an insulated stainless tank, eat the
+
+[16:52] water and then just dispense it straight over the coffee. But I started pricing it out. By swivel, you mean ball valve? Like a ball valve? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. Um, I started pressing out all the different components that I'll need, and it almost made more sense just to go ahead and get a circulator like an Anova. And um, I emailed their technical support and they said that you technically could do that, but they don't officially
+
+[17:16] tension it, you know? Um, so. Wait, what don't they effectually sanction? What don't they sanction? Oh, drinking the water that circulated through the Anova, they don't officially sanction. Ah, gotcha. I mean, they said that they said it'd be a problem from a standpoint
+
+[17:31] of if your tank gets dirty or the circulator gets dirty, you know, clean it, but they didn't specifically say don't do it because the water isn't good to drink. Um, and to my understanding, all the parts that are on, that are submerged in the water are like food grade and metal and except the bottom, uh, the cap for the, um, pump is
+
+[17:50] plastic. Probably not a big deal because you're dealing with, you know, everything below 205 degrees. So, um, I was just wondering what the deal is there, if that's something that's like even reasonable or... I'll give you 2 deals.
+
+[18:03] Here's 2 deals. One. As the manufacturer of equipment that people use to cook things and having spoken to many people, they will never tell you it's okay because they have
+
+[18:17] to, you have to spend, whether or not an item, an item can be pure as the driven snow, but
+
+[18:23] you, in order to get it so they can legally tell you it's okay. They have to pay some some Jokomo, a lot of money to look at it and certify that it's okay, even if they, even if every material that's put into
+
+[18:37] it is known to be food grade, right? They have to, like, pay a lot of extra money and then keep the certs up to be able to say that it can be in direct food contact.
+
+[18:47] So that's why none of these folks are ever going to tell you that you can do that. unless unless for some, unless there's a big market for it. If there's a big market for it in a commercial situation where they need direct food contact,
+
+[18:59] then they'll pay the extra money. But unless they have to for a very small thing, they're never going to tell you it's okay, right? Now, since I don't manufacture that product, if they say that the stuff
+
+[19:10] that it's in contact with the, with, with the water is food grade, then you're okay. Your obvious points are, one, you know, you have to sanitation becomes a big deal because if it's not meant to be food contact, it might have nooks and crannies where bacteria are going to grow, but that said, you're going to be circulating
+
+[19:28] at a temperature's just going to wipe out any vegetative
+
+[19:31] bacteria. Obviously, you're not in like sterilization spore stuff, but you could always, in between things, bleach it if you want, right? So I would say you're okay now. 2nd point is that uh, I mean, I've used circulators to uh, do uh, tea seminars where people want a very accurate tea temperatures. One of the problems with circulators is in general, it's not
+
+[19:55] going to, it depends on, do you want to do this every day of your life or you just testing? If you're just testing, then, yeah, get a circulator and like, you know, just get a container and like put like a little valve in the bottom and take out of
+
+[20:06] it. Make sure, you know, insulate the container, whatever, insulate the thing you're putting it into so you don't lose a lot of effects. But on a day by day basis. Do you want this sucker hanging around in your kitchen with a circulator in a bane with a valve over a thing with the stuff? You know what I'm saying? So, like a lot of, uh, the other thing is, is if you just want to see whether, if you just want to see whether or not you like the results,
+
+[20:28] then yeah, whop it up out of a circulator and then figure out how to make it all fandancy so that you,
+
+[20:33] uh, you know, so that you get the results you want. Like right now, right? You know, I want to see whether or not the, I know it's espresso is not what you're working on, but I want to see whether this Ranchillio that I was, you know, that I had would, you know, PID'd Ranchillio would be kind of where I wanted. So it's kind of opened up all over my kitchen and it takes a boatload of time to make coffee because it's a nightmare to work with. I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth it for me to fix it 100% and then put it back together in a way that makes my work streamlined. Does that make sense? Yeah totally. Yeah. So I wouldn't worry about too much about the, uh, the food greatness. I don't know what kind of plastic that they use, but, um, what do they use? You know what they use? Do you know what it is? Is it ABS? It's probably ABS. The the construction is completely polycarbonate and metal,
+
+[21:21] but, um, what I'm thinking is, is it's an impeller pump, and I just needed to, to basically even out the ambient water temperature in the
+
+[21:28] tank, so I could just take the cap off, because I don't need directional flow. Right. Right. Yeah, anyway, look, if you're really super dupe worried about it. I mean, like the really baller, the really baller move, here's the really baller move for you. The really baller move would be to also submerse the, um, wait, are you doing what style of coffee you're doing? Is this, are you doing it like stirred and then drained? Are you doing pour over? Are you doing French press? What are you doing? Uh, Ken X and Harry O V 60, so basically just pour over. Okay. Because if you were going to do a French press thing, the awesome thing would be to also put the cylinder in the bath that's being circulated so that the temperature, although, you know, look, as people have written in,
+
+[22:11] like, who knows? Maybe a decreasing temperature during the steep time is what you want. Maybe what you want is a temperature gradient, in which case you need to figure it out a way to continuously change the temperature during the extraction time.
+
+[22:22] You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's that's another thing I was thinking about, is hooking up like a manifold beneath, and then having like stations where the water is
+
+[22:30] heated to another specific temperature, so I can do an extraction that ranges from, you know, 195 to
+
+[22:35] 205 and have basically a manifold with 3 different valves on the bottom and they're all heated in different temperatures. Right. Right. Huh. Let me think. I think the easiest way to probably do it. I think most people who do coffee, they want to... See, they want to start high and go low. They want to start high and go low, right? You want to lessen the temperature over the course of the extraction. Is that true? Um, actually, I'm not, I'm not up on that right now. I need to research that. Yeah. If you want to... If you want to lower the extraction temperature over time, then what you want to do is dump the liquid through
+
+[23:17] a block that is hotter than the water. And then the water as it passes through over the course of the um, over the liquid passing through it, the liquid will cool it because the block won't be able to heat it
+
+[23:33] uh, at the same rate for uh, a long enough period of time, right? So what you'll get is you'll get a gradient that goes,
+
+[23:42] initially it'll start at the block temperature, and then if you if you time it right, you know, and if you get all the thermal masses of everything right, it'll end at the temperature of the liquid.
+
+[23:52] And that can be changed, obviously, also by changing the flow rates and, you know, various other things, like whether you add extra heat to the block during the period of time when you're doing it, doing the
+
+[24:01] reverse, I suppose you could also do the reverse where the block is colder than the
+
+[24:06] liquid and then the liquid comes out, then the temperature will rise. But anyway, all these things would have to be tested by testing it. You'd have to, you'd have to do it. You know what I mean? But all of that's easier than actively changing the temperature of the bath over time, which would be much more complicated.
+
+[24:26] And in fact, if you look at most coffin machines, Um, they're, they're kind of like the good designs are the ones where, uh, you know, it's not necessarily that the temperature is 100% stable, but the gradient during the shot is favorable. Again, my brain only thinks espresso, so I have to apologize for that. And I said, I said, I have to apologize. My brain only thinks in espresso, but think about it this way. In a classic French press shot, French press cup of coffee, right? There's a large temperature gradient between the beginning and the end and that's a decreasing. That's a decreasing for you. So if you like that flavor. Whereas I think a clover, which I don't have any experience with running one, I think a clover can maintain the shot temperature. So I've never done like a side by side press versus clover shot without kind of getting rid of the other intervening variables. It's all interesting. And it's a question of what tastes best, what you like. But anyway, hopefully this is somewhat helpful. I said, hopefully this is somewhat helpful. I'm sorry I couldn't hear you. I said, I hope the information helps out a little bit. If you can't hear, if you can't hear Well, you have to go back and listen to it on the iTunes. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, I mean, it's basically just my way of sidestepping buying a $3,500
+
+[25:37] uh, Marco or um, the Uber boiler or whatever. So um, yeah, I'm just trying to find a way to hack my way around that. All right. Well, tweet it on into cooking issues at cooking issues. Tell me how it works out for you. Awesome. Will do. Thanks a lot. All right, Jack, you want to take our break? Yeah, let's do that. Jackie molecules.
+
+[26:07] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[26:24] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the
+
+[26:35] things he's talking about molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[26:42] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place, molecular recipes.com, and just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout.
+
+[27:15] That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out. molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. Good news. got Johnny on. You got Johnny? Yeah I'm here. Hey, what's up, brother? Oh, is that your is that your Johnny Hunter music? Let me hear some Johnny Hunter music. Wow. Wow, I didn't know that was your jammy, Johnny. Yeah, we got Johnny from the Underground Meats Collective Underground Food Collective in Madison, Wisconsin. First of all, how's it going over there in Madison? I hear a lot of a lot of protests going on right now or what's what's the what's the feeling like over there? Yeah, it's pretty intense. Um, yeah, just uh, unarmed. Uh, African-American kid was shot last weekend and uh, the city is kind of grappling with it and asking a lot of really good
+
+[28:13] questions, so, um, the protests have been really good. I mean, it's like really engaging and a lot of people participating. Yeah, well. Anyway, it's yeah, awful. So, uh, we had a question in on smoking, uh, meats, and, um, I thought I'd ask you because I didn't want to answer the question based on my solely theoretical knowledge, uh, because, you know, I don't have a lot
+
+[28:41] of uh, expertise in what this person asks. So I figured I'd call you. Jason wrote in. Hey, cooking issues team, I have a question on cold smoking and smoke absorption. As I understand, smoke absorption is affected by the relative humidity of the environment and the moisture of the product being smoked. What about temperature? How does environmental and product temperature affect smoke absorption? I'm thinking coal smoking in this case. So if I cold smoke at 75 Fahrenheit, will I get more or less or the same smoke flavor as if I smoke at 40 degrees Fahrenheit? Inquiring minds wish to know Jason. And I figured I'd ask you, since you probably tested this stuff. Yeah, let me, uh, hold on. Let me ask our head smoker right now. I'm gonna... All right, so you... You find him and I'll just talk about some random stuff about smoking while you get back. All right. Old smoking, absorption, difference. So, uh, that said, like, smoking incredibly complicated. I haven't really, I haven't really studied it in depth in a long time, even from a theoretical basis. But I did learn some interesting techniques. What? We should thank him. Oh yeah, we should Oh, wait. Okay, well, he's back. Charlie, I'm going to let Charlie answer this question. First of all, thank you for the meats for the 200th episode, by the way. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. All right, so who do we have on the line? Hello? Hello. Hello. Hey, this is Charlie. How you doing? So the question was, in cold smoking, like, what's the difference in terms of smoke flavor, more or less smoking at 40 Fahrenheit versus 75 Fahrenheit?
+
+[30:15] 75 degrees Fahrenheit? There's not going to be that much difference between 40 and 75. The only real difference with smoke doesn't penetrate once meat gets above about 130 to 140. It stops penetrating at that point. So, okay, so you're saying that like, you're going to get, so you're, so you're, whatever you're doing for, I think 40 degrees, 75 degrees, I don't think that's
+
+[30:42] going to make much of a difference. It only it's always going to affect it once it gets above like that 130 threshold.
+
+[30:48] Right. Do you think there's going to be a big difference because the humidity in the box is going to change a lot, if they don't have good control over the humidity in the box, because it's going to be like a different relative
+
+[30:58] humidity, when it's that cold, when it's like fridge tent versus when it's at like room temp, or is it not, is it really just going to be like 6 and one
+
+[31:05] half a dozen to the other? You know, I don't really think there's much of a difference. Some people really think that there's a huge difference, but I don't think there's much of a difference if, if you're, humidity
+
+[31:17] is, is relatively the same. You know what I mean? Right. And so then, would your opinion be, keep it at like 40 just for safety reasons? Is it, are you better off just staying low then? Yeah, you know, you're always better off staying low. It depends on if you have any pink salt or any sodium nitrite in the, in whatever you're processing, whatever you're cold smoking. If you have, if you have that, then you're not worried about the botulism. I'm not worried about that temperature getting up there. Right. So you're here for a quality standpoint. If you don't have anything, if you don't have any nitrite or anything in there, then I would keep it at 40 or below if you can while you're cold smoking. But if you have, but if you have cure in there, then you're fine. And you should be able to smoke at 75 degrees and then cool afterwards. Sure. So you're saying it's not a quality issue, maybe a safety issue if there's not enough botulism inhibition due
+
+[32:07] to due to the cure you applied. That's, yeah, just going on what you're saying, what I know from what you're saying just now. Yeah, that's what I would think. Is there is there any difference, by the way? It's just a question I have not related, uh, to the, um, how uh, wet or dry. You want the surface of a product to be when you cold smoke versus when you hot smoke? I mean, you, anytime you're going to smoke, uh, you want to give that, give the, um, whatever
+
+[32:32] your, whatever you're smoking a day to hang, um, overnight in the cooler so that it develops
+
+[32:38] some, some tact to it. Right. But not totally. you don't want to, you don't want to form like a, like a, an impervious skin. You don't want to case harden it though, right? No, you don't want to case harden it, obviously. Yeah, you don't want it to be completely dried out, but you do want to have, uh, a decent dry surface. If it's, if it's wet, it, you know, the smoke tends to, it can get kind of like an acrid taste to
+
+[32:59] it. Now, uh, there's a, there's something I read about, which, you know, you guys, like having access to all the science folks over there at the university, I just read about it, I didn't know about it, and they're going to cut me off the air soon, so I
+
+[33:11] wanted to see what you think about it, whether you, you can try this. Have you heard of electrostatic smoking? Um no, I guess not. I mean, I've seen some pretty bizarre smoke designs. I've seen like where it's like a friction smoke, but I don't know what that is. Yeah, friction smoking is cool. Okay, so like, I think it's pretty clear that the temperature of smoke generation, super important, right? we're not talking about that. This is check out what these guys do. This is like super speed, super speed smoking, what they do is, is they have a metal conveyor belt that the food travels on. right? And they travel it underneath a 40 kilovolt electrode, right? And they set up a giant electric field in between this electrode and the conveyor belt with the meat in between, and it
+
+[34:03] just, wham, like accelerates like the particles and the vapor stuff in the smoke onto the
+
+[34:09] meat, and then it rolls away. And so stuff is smoked in like 5 minutes. But here's the crazy part about it. According to the data I've been reading. Like it literally forms like a layer of smoke on the on the stuff that you can peel off until it goes through. like cooking and like tempering out procedure. And at that point, that like it soaks in and behaves like a normal piece of smoked meat. isn't that crazy? I guess I'm still concerned, like a conveyor belt? You said it wizzes the meat too. Well, yeah, so his conveyor belt is moving through, but it also provides like the other side, the electrode, the ground, and then they have smoke going through this chamber, and then they have a giant electrode that like electrostatically slams the smoke into the surface of the meat, like
+
+[34:55] embedding, embedding the, not just the particles, right? Because, you know, everyone who's like smokes knows it like there's there's particles which have like a certain, like, uh, you know, and the actual vapor, which is different, right? So there's the vapor and then there's the particles, which is why if you put smoke in a container, let the let the particles settle out and open it, it still smells like smoke because there's vapor and whatever anyway. But it accelerates not just the particles, it accelerates the vapor, like, with this huge, like, electrostatic
+
+[35:23] force, bang, right into the surface of the meat and is, like, insti smoke. isn't that nuts? So, but is it, so does it penetrate, though, further
+
+[35:32] than or is it just a base level like just the surface? Well, these guys aren't doing it in a coal smoke application. They're doing it, I think, in a hot, in a, like a pseudo hot smoke. So what they're doing is, is that after it goes through that on the conveyor, it goes through its cook process. And during the cook process, like all the stuff that's been embedded in the surface of the meat will distribute throughout the
+
+[35:54] meat the way that it would in a normal kind of a situation. Yeah. So, so, so it's sort of... Uh, no, that's interesting. So it puts like a heavy dose of it on the surface of the
+
+[36:06] meat and that is absorbed through just the regular cooking process. Right, but not, but not so not heavy in the same way that like applying a heavy smoke would make it acrid because it's a different. Anyway, check it out. See whether one of those lunatics at the university can rig one up for you. I'd love to hear someone who actually could play around with it. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Really interesting. Well, anyway, thanks so much. Thanks so much for the answer. They're going to rip me off the air in about in about 30 seconds. We love you guys at the underground food and meat collective over there. All our, you know, love out to Madison, what's going on right now. I got more questions I didn't answer. We'll get them next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts
+
+[36:54] in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:06] ingredients, and tools. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Wow. I went through the whole spiel. Oh. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, a glass of wine. So nice. Prosecco? Bubbling, Stas, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not with me in the studio today. She is actually in Long Island on the day that we have bubbly
+
+[0:57] here, Stas. Well, you can't believe it. You're missing the bubbly. I know. I asked for the bubbly for you. Oh, that's so sweet. That is I didn't pay for it. That is a true friend who, it's not the money. It's the fact that she wanted someone else to have it, even though she couldn't have it. That's the mark of a true Travis does. That is a true friend. All right, so I'm going to cheers the microphone here, right? That's the... sounds great. Yeah, right? Okay, now do it again. Clicking the microphone. Yeah, yeah. fancy. Congratulations. Did you tell anybody yet? No, no, just came on. By the way, this is cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria
+
+[1:39] in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. Roughly 1245 every Tuesday. a nice smooth intro. Yeah, well, I cut you off on the beginning because I was fumbling and getting the applause ready. Oh, nice. Nice. Well, you know, now that we've been nominated for, well, the radio show still has
+
+[1:55] yet someday, someday. But someday. someday. So my book, Liquid Intelligence, nominated for James Beard, Award, along with the Sherry
+
+[2:05] book and the Death and code book for, like, a beverage, uh, uh, writing, I guess, or beverage book. And I'm super happy. This is the 1st real award I've ever been nominated for, ever. Really? Isn't that weird? Not weird, but like, you know, ever. Look, when I was in school, I wasn't the kid that got awards. I was that kid who's like, you know, I didn't do poorly enough to get best improvement, you know,
+
+[2:28] because I always did well, but I didn't do well enough to get any of the awards. Like, you know, I definitely didn't get that best citizenship award. Did you get that crap stuff? Styles got best personality in Go figure, huh? Yeah, right? Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Me? You know what I was? I was that kid who, you know, on Valentine's Day when everyone buys the carnations for their buddies. You know, they buy like, you could buy... Oh, it's a white one. a friendship and a green one. I don't know what the green one is, whatever in the hell. And then the, you know, the red one is who I love you, all this other crap. Well, I was the one who got the secret admirer carnation at the end of the day because everyone had to get one. And so if nobody bought you one, they would just hand you one at the end of the day and be like,
+
+[3:11] it's a secret admirer. And it's like, listen, I'm not an idiot. You know what I mean? Like, I get it. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't need to walk around with a flower in my hand, you know what I mean? It's like if you're going to wallow and it just wallow in it. It builds character. It's good stuff, you know? So I feel like my whole mojo is ruined by this nomination thing now that I've been nominated for something, I can't have the kind of like the, the, why I'm mojo
+
+[3:34] anymore. You know what I mean? If you if you win, you should tell that story. I think a good story. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what. Uh, like, the thing is, is that, like, both the other books are fantastic, fantastic books. So whoever whoever wins, it's going to be, you know, it's it's good. I mean, obviously, I would, I would like to, I would like to win for the only thing that I've been nominated for. I mean, I would like to win, but, you know, I'm up against some stiff, some stiff competition there. Yeah, April 24th. So we'll see we'll see what happens. Yeah. So Stas, where are you today? Why don't you tell the people where you are? I'm going to Jackson Pollock's old house, um, to learn about what he used to make for dinner parties. Yeah, something like that. You mean the non-alcoholic stuff you used to make for the dinner party. Raging alcoholic Jackson Pollard. And mean, you said. Oh, just bad, bad guy. Like, from all accounts. I mean, look, I didn't meet the guy. The guy died, like, you know, way before I was born, but from all accounts, just a real jerk, just a real, there's a
+
+[4:36] movie, actually. I think Ed Harris plays him. I never saw the movie, but I don't I don't know how true to life it is. But did you... I mean, whatever, whatever. But like how's the how's the food looking so far? But we're not there yet. So I said, yeah, yeah, we're not there yet. But supposedly we were going to get to like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how it is Well, I know you're a hater of everything. So, like, there's nothing you hate more than a concept. I know, I know. I don't even know why I'm here. Well, it's fun. I mean, look, it's gonna be good. It's a shame that it's cold. Actually, so I can listen to that radio station. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. Nastasia has a, um, It's obsession. Yeah, yeah, obsession. There's this, there's this like, no offense to it. I mean, look, I'm talking, but there's this tiny radio station in Long Island. And what is it you like about this radio station styles? It's so local. It's just so incredibly, like, community oriented and I, and I, it's like listening to a police blotter. Yeah, remember that one time we were listening to it and it's like they were describing the stuff that the cops took out of the pocket of the kid that they, you know, pulled over at the mall or
+
+[5:45] whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy's ham and cheese sandwich. Yeah, all kinds. yeah Yeah, yeah. And he had a ham and cheese sandwich in his pocket. So weird. So weird. Oh, and you have a lot of ketchup questions. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. But I also, I can't leave without saying that when I spoke to Nastasia this morning after I heard about the nomination, she was like, you got nominated for best insulated food
+
+[6:10] separator, because that's all Nastasia uses the liquid intelligence for. Yours, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my book. Yeah. So she's, she assumes that the other two, the other 2 are actual books, though, Nastasia, that have words in
+
+[6:21] them that you can read. Whereas mine is simply something that keeps hot foods and cold foods separated. It's like, it's good. That's why I wrote so much. Yeah, it's perfect thickness. You know, if I had written anymore, it would have been too heavy. If I had written any less, it wouldn't have been as good an insulator, you know? Yeah, nice. Anyways, we might be joined later in the program by Peter Kim. Oh, yeah. So, do you guys like the more mellow intro? There's the more NPR style intro. It was very distinguished. Yeah? Yeah. I didn't hear the instrument. Well, you know, if we if we ever want to get nominated. We going to have to go more distinguished instead of like... Maybe that's what's scaring them away. You think? No. No. Ah, yeah. Anyway, culinary questions too. 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. I'm trying to, anyway. But Nastasia, you actually hate all of the... I shouldn't say that. But you don't like, you don't like kind of mellows, like, stayed folks, right? No, that's why I don't listen to NPR. I just don't like the mouth noises that you can hear when people talk like in a mellow way. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I love NPR actually. I know Yeah, whatever. Hey, Dave, we're gonna have somebody come in and film you. Is that cool? Really? Yeah. Okay. You like how we could just ask that on the show? Yeah. Great. Awesome. I mean, whatever. It is their camera. It's for our Kickstarter video. It's pretty exciting We have a new website coming. Well, why don't you say something about that before I get into the, but quickly, because I got to get, I got to get something. Well we started on time. haven't even started yet. The video will tell you everything. Well, that's it. Here's the teaser. We have a new website coming and a Kickstarter campaign to fund that website. What are you going to do with the website? It's a new website, a completely new platform. I mean, are you selling Viagra? What are you doing? Oh no. It's for radio. Yeah, yeah. I know, but like you said, like some, you don't want to, you don't want to give anything away. It's going to be in the Kickstarter video. That's right. Yep. All right, fair. Are you running the Kickstarter, Jack? Not just me, you know, the whole team here, yeah. Oh, yeah. Hey, do we have a firm ship date, by the way? Speaking of Kickstarter on the steak decorators? No, we don't have that date yet. But they're done, right? They're done. They should be shipped out this week and they should be here, you know, in the next couple weeks at most. All right, cool. All right. We give you more info when we get it. Yes. And pretty soon we can talk about our next products pretty soon within... Yeah, but I'm not going to bring it up yet until I have it firm when I'm going to do it. But like within within a month or so, we should be announcing our next stuff. Once we get the steak decorators out and everybody's tapping with us and we don't have the hounds at our heels. Okay. Let me get to some questions, which is what we're actually here for instead of just chit chatting. BJD wrote in and listen, I apologize. Obviously, this was a corned beef question for St. Patrick's Day, and obviously St. Patrick's Day is over. Let me just say that corned beef is not just for St Patrick's Day. Do you like corned beef stars? Yes, they do. I think it's good. Wow. Wow, unusual? Yeah. good stuff. But do you like it? Do you like any form of it? Are you a sandwich corned beef person or more like a hash person? Uh, sandwich form with mustard. Oh yeah, mustard. Oh my god, mustard. You know, I can still remember when I was a kid. Very young. you know, like, we did touristy stuff, you know, because, you know, I lived in Jersey and, you know, what did we know? No offense. No offense. Uh, but, uh, so I remember we went to Carnegie deli. is a 1000000000 years ago, this has got to be in like, you know, late 70s, early 80s or something. And I got the Broadway Danny Rose, which I believe is corned beef and
+
+[10:07] pastrami. Uh, and I asked for freaking mayonnaise and like the, even though I was a little kid, like the waiter almost punched me. It's crazy. You know what I mean? I mean I would never do that now. Never do that now. Mustard. Mustard. Are you more, wait, are you more of a pastrami person or corned beef person? I like corned beef better than pastrami. Jack? either way, but I'll go pastrami probably. Yeah, I think I go pastro. I like them both, but I would definitely, if, like, if, if you had to choose one thing to go with. I go with pastrami. You know what the worst thing in the world is? People who try to get the leanest pastrami possible. Just don't have the freaking pastrami. something else. Pastrami. I like love the fatty part of the pastrami with all the pepper and the mustard. Oh my god, rye bread. You like it on rye bread, stars? I don't like rye bread now. Okay. All right. Well, we'll have to discuss this. I'm not going to call you. I mean, I just did. I was going to say, I'm not going to call you out, but I just did. I just did. Okay. With the holidays upon us, St. Patrick's Day, which I missed, because I was flying back, people, from South by Southwest, where I was giving a talk with Peter
+
+[11:18] came and Emma boast about the Museum of Food and Drink. Maybe he'll talk about it when he gets here, maybe not. I was literally there. We also did a really fun event for the museum at a place called
+
+[11:29] Odd Duck in Austin. Fantastic Place. Everyone there was really, really nice food. Excellent, really awesome place. I recommend anyone in Austin. Go check it out. With a hug. Oh, by the way, oh, my God. I know I'm listen, I'm going to get to the questions, but I don't want to forget this because you know how I am. Johnny Hunter's birthday today. Hey. His birthday? Oh, nice. Johnny Hunter's birthday. I know how I know this. I just got a text. I thought it was from you, Stas. Someone sent me a text says it's Johnny Hunter's birthday. So there it is. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. And I believe, is he in the finalist list? I know he was nominated in the pre-nominations for the Beard Award. Is he in the finalist list? I hope so. I didn't see his name, but I didn't look that hard. Anyway, happy birthday. Finally, a question here. With the holidays upon us, I was wanting to hear Dave's suggestions on brining and circulating a brisket. I'm planning on going with the serious Eats recipe, but I'm always looking to improve. And then they link to Kenji's recipe for brisket
+
+[12:31] with, you know, whatever, brisket, you know. So anyway, so here's the recipe. It is brisket trimmed with salt. Now, listen, any cures it for 8 days. It's salt, spices, you know, sugar, you know, peppercorns, all this mustard seeds, coriander, blah, blah, blah,
+
+[12:49] allspice, clove, yada, yada, yada, right? Let's get to the nuts and bolts. First of all, uh, Kenji calls out, uh, and
+
+[12:58] so I'm just going to comment on this particular recipe uh, that you're that you're dealing with and and and deal with it. First of all, on the salt. In the in the recipe, uh, it calls for 1st it gives a um, a grams and then an ounces and then a cup measurement, and then it says
+
+[13:16] diamond crystal kosher salt. Now, I'm sure most of the listeners on this show will know that you cannot
+
+[13:23] measure, so I'm sure it's just like the way they have to do it for the website. You can't measure salt by volume. Specifically, kosher salt is a freaking nightmare to measure by volume because diamond kosher salt, which is, by the way, the choice of everyone everywhere who has any sense, really, for general salting, is compared to Morton's kosher salt or any
+
+[13:50] other, like, form of like regular, like iodized, like salt crystals is very fluffy, right? So, uh, if you were to use a, a cup
+
+[14:01] of uh, diamond crystal kosher salt is, I don't remember exactly, but it's something like the equivalent Morton's kosher salt is like only like
+
+[14:10] two-thirds of a cup. So it's wildly different. So you always want to weigh your, uh, you always want to weigh your salt. Now, the reason to use the reason everybody likes Diamond, who has used it. And I think it's available nationwide. I just have to search for it. The reason is, is because it's fluffy, it's easier to dose
+
+[14:30] out, because you can put a healthier sprinkle on, and because you can put a healthier sprinkle on because it's less dense, you know, you have more margin for error when you're sprinkling the stuff
+
+[14:39] in. It's easier to sift in your hand and dump on stuff, doesn't clump as much, blah, blah, blah. It's just superior shape, kosher salt for cooking, like, period. Like that's just all there is to it. So, um, if you're going to measure by volume, you must use diamond if you're going to follow his recipe. But, you know, like I said, I think most of the listeners of this show already know that. Then calls out for the cure, because remember, these are cured things, calls out for 10 grams of
+
+[15:09] salt, saltpeter or pink salt. Now, listen, saltpeter is like an old thing that people call out, don't use it.
+
+[15:19] Just forget it. There's no freaking reason to ever use saltpeters. Don't do it. What is that? What is salt Peter? A saltpeter is like a, I think it's pure sodium nitrate. I have to look it up. I'm not exactly sure. I think it's pure soda, so or something like that. Maybe Jack can look it up while I'm talking, but it's like an old thing that people used to get
+
+[15:39] it, druggists, you know, a druggist. I got it once when I was a kid because I was making Natron, which is the mummification salt when I was doing my mummification project in
+
+[15:48] elementary school and I had to like pack it into the thing. But the point is, is that you, is that you don't want to use it, right? Just don't, because it's incredibly easy to get nowadays curing salt,
+
+[16:01] right? But you can't just say pink salt. right? So what happens is, is that regular salt is regular salt. If you want to get that kind of cured taste in color in meats in a reasonable amount of time, You have to add nitrites or nitrates. So the trick is, is that there's 3 different ways that the average person can get these these things. One is that there's 2 kinds of kind of uh, insta cures, pink salt called prey powder, one and 2 or insecure one and 2 or pink salt, right? One is the one that you want to get. It's nit right, right? And then 2 is the one you don't want to use, and that's nitrate. And, uh, the difference is, is that nitrite is, uh, consider that like a short acting, um, kind of cure agent, whereas the nitrate is a more, is kind of a longer
+
+[16:48] acting because the nitrate has to get converted to nitrite before it can then do its, uh, its curing work.
+
+[16:53] Now, so what do you use the nitrate for? Well, you use it for country hams and things like that. Basically nothing else. Anything else you're going to do, you're going to use nitrite. Definitely any wet brining you're going to do. You going to use nitrite, which is insecure one or prey powder one. Make sure you get the right one. The other thing you could do instead is use a product that you can get in a lot of places called Tender Quick. And that is salt with the insecure already put in on a salt weight basis. So then if you use that, if you use tender quick. That's a Morton's product and it's not as dense. You definitely have to weigh it, but then you omit the pink salt altogether. Anyways. Kenji says to marinate it in a vacuum or in a ziploc, if you marinate it in a vacuum bag, you're going to get a faster penetration and if you marinate it in a
+
+[17:39] ziploc, he does it for 8 days, flipping it, that's all good. Then you, what you gotta, like the real baller ways. Like, if you want to do it quickly, is you could pressure marinate this thing, but you'd have to get like a pressure pot. They make stainless steel pressure pots for painting. Uh, or you, if you have a Cornelius keg, you,
+
+[17:56] like, uh, you can throw the brisket into the corny keg and then you pressurize it at, like, 80 PSI with
+
+[18:03] a, with a tank with, like, a CO2 tank. It's not going to hurt anything because you're going to get the CO2 out later or nitrous if you have it. like I have it. And then pressure marinate it and you can marinate it very, very quickly and then let it let it sit and it'll be a very equal cure then. You won't have to worry about salt equalization as much because it's going to penetrate very, very quickly. So that's something you can do if you really have a need to tech it up. If for some reason you don't want to wait around for 8 days or you just want to penetrate it and try something else, you can do that.
+
+[18:30] I don't think it's kind of necessary from a quality standpoint. But here is where it gets interesting. He has Kenji has 2 different cooking techniques. Both are, take it out of the cure, wash it off, right? And then one is a traditional way, where you put it, Oh my god, nice, you remember, you guys, you've all seen Raiders of Lost Dark a 1000000 times, right? Yes. Yeah. So now I have in my head, because Dax repeats it constantly, is when the guy is looking at the headpiece of raw, and he goes, this is the old way. Remember that? Remember, he's like, he's like, take back one kadan. Remember this? Anyone remembers this? Where's like, where they're like, like the, the awesome dude and indie with the bad dates and the monkey where he's like, the, like the Nazi has burnt only one side of the staff into his
+
+[19:18] hand, and so they make the, they make the, the staff 6 Kadan high, and then he has
+
+[19:23] floops it over. He's like, take back one Kadan to honor the Hebrew god whose Octus is. And then they all say, the staff is too long. They're digging in the wrong place You don't remember this? Whenever anyone says take one back. It's all I can think about. This is only going to make sense to people who are Raiders of Lost Dark Fanatics. Jack, do you remember any of this? Not that specifically. remember the movie. Come on, it's one of the great movies, please. Declan here remembers that part. Yeah, nice. Sweet. At least somebody's with me on this. Anyways, where was I? Oh, yeah. So the old way. So, put it in a pot of water with a little bit, you know, with like an inch of water over or something like
+
+[20:01] that, and then just, he puts it in the oven at 200 with a lid slightly ajar. So the real question is, how what temperature is that actually? He's cooking it for a long time, like 10 hours. So the presumption is that he's getting enough evaporation in there such that the temperature never gets above, probably, I don't know, 190, 180. I don't know. I'd have to measure it. don't know. He didn't give a measurement for the temperature that it is when it's in the oven. But when he does his uh, sous vide, his his his vacuum bag one, he cooks it at 180 Fahrenheit. Now that is traditional kind of temperatures. He also cooks it there for 10 hours, which I don't know. I don't know how long it takes to cook that out. But here is where you have a big change in texture, flavor and taste. When you're cooking the brisket in water, traditionally, right? You are giving it more of a poach, your leeching flavor out of the meat, right? And you're also giving it that kind of more poached texture, it's going to become more friable. It's gonna be, I don't know, it's going to be different, right? When you do it in the bag, it's going to be kind of more compact, more sliceable. Um, and it will have a more intense flavor. Now, here's the issue is that you're going to leach a lot less salt out when you cook it in the bag versus when you cook it
+
+[21:17] in, um, in water. You're also not going to have the cooking liquid left later to redo the veg and all their stuff
+
+[21:25] afterwards. So you have to come up with something else to do there. Now, another issue is, is that you have to choose what kind of texture you want. If you want a traditional texture on this thing, then you have to cook it high at
+
+[21:38] a high temperature. And that's how I do confit, even in the bag, frankly, when I'm doing duck, high, for about the same length of time as you would normally, because you're cooking it roughly at the same temperature that you would normally cook it. The other alternative you can do, and it makes an entirely different product, not better, not worse, different, is to go low in temperature, something like 57
+
+[21:57] degrees, uh, um, Celsius, 135 Fahrenheit, roughly. And then at that temperature, you're going to want to cook it for probably between 48 and 56 to 72 hours, somewhere in there, somewhere between 2 days and 3 days, probably in the 50s of
+
+[22:16] hours. You're going to want to cook it for that long, right? So you have 2 choices. And it's based on what kind of texture you're trying to achieve. Now, the other thing is they mentioned, he mentions, is the cool down? Now, here is the vital part of this procedure. When you're doing it traditionally, you just leave the, you put the lid on, you let it cool down, as it cools down, it reabsorbs
+
+[22:36] the, some of the juice from the boiling liquid, uh, that goes into it. And when you do the bag, you have to do the same thing. You have to let it reabsorb. Now, here's the trick. Do not simply throw the bag into ice water. You need to let it reabsorb the liquid. So what you want to want to do is take the bag out of the circulator, whatever else you're cooking it
+
+[22:58] in, leave it on the table for at least at least 20, 30 minutes. Now, if you've cooked it up at 180. Remember, also, there's no botulism in here because you've cured it with nitrates or
+
+[23:10] nitrates, rather. So you don't really have to worry that much about botulism. So I would, you know, not worry as much about how quickly you chill it
+
+[23:18] down if it's in a vacuum bag. I probably shouldn't say that, but me personally, I wouldn't worry about it as much. And I'd want to get a low ramp down in temperature. So at very very fastest, I would ever chill it is like 20 minutes on the tabletop, on
+
+[23:32] the on the countertop, in the air, and then 20 minutes in regular room temperature tap
+
+[23:39] water, and then in ice water. But I would actually push it even further. I would probably do like half hour, half hour, and then an ice water to bring it down, let it cool down, and then do your rether when you cook it out because you're going to get it. If you're going to get a much better product than if you just shock chill it. That's going to be the big, uh, that's going to be the big Magilla. Yeah? that make any sense? Yes. You're like, I don't care. I don't care. Uh, okay. So Elliot Papineau wrote in. Good old Elliot, longtime listener of the show. And he only addresses it to me, says because he knows that I'm the only one answering the questions, but
+
+[24:13] he does say hello, Stas, to you and to Jack. Hey, Elliot. He does say hello to us. He says hello to you, but he's not addressing the question to you. I know. I remember seeing that email in it. Yeah. Whoa, what do you mean? Give me some. Give me some insight into the noastos. You know, I was just like, I'm only addressing this to you, Dave, because you're the only one who answers the
+
+[24:32] question. But then he said, hello. What? Oh, oh, by the way, you'll like this. Peter just came into the studio, and of course, he's doing the awkward. I don't know how to sit down, Peter Peter Kent thing. Peter came from the museum of food and drink, folks. Yeah. Oh, please, thank you guys. Yeah, please. So, uh, wait. I don't know how to sit down. Well, that one time Dave made me give him a freaking lap dance just to get over to that seat. That was a
+
+[25:01] crossword. Family show. You weren't here at the beginning, but we're trying to be more professional now. Yeah. Okay. I'm gearing up for new spring growth. Ooh, how much do you hate that phrase, spring growth? Yeah. Even though you're a gardener. Now, gearing up for it. We still had a we had a frost this last week. Anyway. And I want to know the best vinegar and neutral alcohol to infuse with berries, wood, shoots, stems,
+
+[25:29] et cetera. I plan on service berry, spruce tips, could call cherry wood, sour cherries, which I wish I could do. Wild raspberry, strawberry, bean flour, I guess, for the color, I guess, ramps, which are your favorite. He calls you out on that, Hammer's Fave ramps, because Mustasi hates ramps. Because everybody else has ramps. Because everyone else loves them. almost, yeah, it's almost ramp season now, too. annoying. I like how you're angry at the plants for growing. You're like those damn ramps in their springness. Also, if you ever meet Nastasia. Never tell her that you are enjoying the weather or that you can because she hates people enjoying the weather, right? You hate it. True, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we've said this before, but she is like the singer from garbage. She is only happy when it rains. Anyway, so what do you suggest? I live in Illinois, Elliot Papineau. Well, that's a good question. Um, I mean, vinegar is so, I would just choose whatever vinegar you like, just be, you know, the flavor
+
+[26:33] of, the thing is how clean do you want it to be? Remember, and how vinegary do you want it to be? The acidity is going to get mellowed by the fact that you're adding fruit and fruit is roughly, I don't know, probably over 80% water in that
+
+[26:48] range. And so, you know, your acidity is gonna be very mellowed by the amount of fruit that's present in the vinegar. So if you want like hyperacid for the infusion, then you might want to go, remember that Swedish vinegar we used to
+
+[27:00] use, does? Yeah. It's like super high acid Swedish vinegar. I forget what it was, but it was nutty baggins. It was like 10% or something acid. And that was like hyper vinegar distilled. I actually am a fan of, I have to say, like, like, I like the cleanness of distilled vinegar for a lot of cooking, but then on the other hand, I love,
+
+[27:17] uh, you know, a delicious, uh, I love a delicious, uh, flavor vinegar as well, but on the alcohol, You definitely going to want to go, um, you're definitely going to want to go clean. Unless you have something specific. Now, here in the, in, in New York, we can get something called uh, Industry Standard Technical Reserve that's like 95, uh, five, but it smells and tastes a whole lot better than Everclear does. If you want to do some like super high stuff. But remember, you're going to be lowering the proof of the product by how you, you know, by the amount of fruit that's in it. But if you use a very high proof, very clean alcohol, you can add a lot of fruit to it and get very, very,
+
+[27:56] you know, strong extractions out of it. So, or, hey, you can just use like a regular, but remember, like if you have a kilo of liquor and a kilo of
+
+[28:09] fruit. You're going to end up with a proof eventually that is, you know, down
+
+[28:14] in like the mid 20s somewhere. So that's going to mean that the fruit's going to age more, and different things are going to happen. Now, I forget, Elliot, whether it was you or somebody else that tried the pectin methylesterase, which is the novo shape, which is the pectin strengthening
+
+[28:30] enzyme. But I would definitely, I think maybe it was you. But you definitely want to try that. This year, what I would do is take the fruit. I would add calcium. I would do an initial soak in water of the pectin methylesterase and calcium. And then I would add some extra for good measure to whatever you're
+
+[28:50] going to steep in there. I don't know whether it, because I haven't tested it. I don't know whether it is deactivated by alcohol or not. Uh, I suppose we could find out. I could ask someone, but I would definitely add some both before as a pre-soak, if you can vacuum it in or let it or ISI that the enzyme into it along with calcium, you're going to get
+
+[29:10] a with an ISI, because that's going to damage it from the pressure. But you're going to get a much firmer product and it stays firm over. Although, you know what? I had an old school back when I was allowed to have cherries. Uh, my, my stepfather's grandfather uh, put down some cherries in the
+
+[29:27] 1920s uh, and his secret was he would just snip the stems, but leave the stem on. It's old wise tale, I'm pretty sure. But I had one of those cherries that was put down in the 20s in the late
+
+[29:39] 80s and it was still good. Yeah, yeah, boozy. 2 left of that, by the way. There's 2 left of those cherries in the world. Anyway, does that make any sense, does? Any sense? Any sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't you have like something from him that you have to drink soon or something like
+
+[29:56] that? Well, he's like 95 years old. So there's those 2 or 3 cherries left. So like the idea was I wanted to get and I almost got the story done once. I just wanted, uh, him, right? And then my stepfather and then my brother, Ben, and we're going to make Manhattans and put those cherries in it and just have like, you know, almost, it's almost a 100
+
+[30:16] year. The cherry pretty soon will be a 100 years old. So I think it would be interesting that the last 3 of these things, and then you have a 95-year-old person. a, you know, 62 year old person and a 22 year old person, like 3 generations, like having a
+
+[30:29] Manhattan. I think would be a good story. Wouldn't you? It's a good human interest story. I'm human. I have interests, maybe. Anyway, you want to do our 1st break and come right back with some quick issues? Great timing. Boom.
+
+[30:52] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[31:09] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the
+
+[31:19] things he's talking about molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[31:27] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There is a community of over 400,000 chefs, scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place,
+
+[31:49] molecular recipes.com, and just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[31:56] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecularecipes.com. tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. And welcome back to cooking issues. This is the mellow cooking issues voice, trying to be more professional. Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues with Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. Welcome back, Peter. Yes, yes. We need a little smooth jazz, Dave. Oh my god, smooth jazz. Oh, smooth jazz. Yacht rock. Yeah. That's it. Hey, did you didn't play Jackie molecules, Jack? Of course we did. Oh my brain was just fuzzed out. Can I hear a little more Jackie molecules? Um, it ran, but I mean, molecular recipes.com for more. Yeah, got great stuff. But they don't play the music. I just want to hear that. Oh, the song. No, we played the commercial over the break song today. Stas just hated that song so much, you know, like we couldn't couldn't keep playing it. Who did your break song, by the way? Jack. No, no, no. that song is not for me. No, that was a listener. Yeah, that was that was no, that's a long time ago, but the Jack molecule song. This would be the Jackie Molecule song. molecular recipes.com. It was appropriately molecular. It's molecular. Emma would love this. Well, that's good. Stas hated it. Just a song. Yeah, you know, we love molecular recipes.com, which you guys should check out, but the
+
+[33:22] song... I actually prefer food that's not molecular myself. Yes, you prefer the anti-matter food. As they are well aware, I make fun of their name on a constant basis because I hate the term molecular cooking.
+
+[33:36] I've been painted with that tar brush many times. Um, Linus writes in about East. Now listen. You know how like ISI and EC, like for years there was confusion over whether it was ISI or EC and it was ISI here
+
+[33:51] and EC in Austria. You know who I'm talking about? whipped cream folk. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just going from now on, I'm just going to say EC, because that's what you're supposed to say now. So I'm not going to say I say I say anymore. Agreed. It's easy. Henceforth. Just easy. That's what it is. Yep. Okay. Now, EC makes a number of different whipped cream makers whipped. Now, they make a home jazz version, which is not stainless steel looking. It's like, it's, you know, metal, but it's like Teflon coated and it's not, it's got a plastic top instead of a metal top. Fine machine. I own that for many years. You know why? Hawaii? Because they are cheaper. Uh, so, you know, back in the day when all I used it for was whipped cream, that's what I owned. Do you own a whipper, by the way? No, not yet. Jump up. Okay. I'm just saying you're a chump. Yeah, that's fine. So the question is regarding whippers and different styles of whippers, because they have various different kinds, all right? That's a preface to this question from Linus. Okay? All right. Uh, love a show. Just had a couple of quick questions about EC whipping siphons. By the way, they've been called siphons since I believe they started getting called siphons in the US as a result of translations of Spanish stuff into the US. Technically, right, only the soda ones are siphons. And this is not blindness. This is not a reflection on you. Like everyone calls them siphons. They aren't siphons, unless they have the tube running from the top all the way down to the bottom, like a soda thing. It's the same way that if you order a CO2 tank and you want to get the dry ice out of it, you have to order what's called a siphon tank. It has a tube going on down to the bottom. Why? So you can siphon the liquid off of the bottom instead of getting the gas out of the top. So a real siphon, you don't have to turn upside down to get the whipped cream out
+
+[35:38] of, like you do, whipped cream maker. And by the way, any of you jerks who don't turn the, the, how many times does it
+
+[35:44] happen? Well, it doesn't happen because you don't own one, but like you pass the whipped cream thing around and someone like holds it freaking horizontally. And like discharges the gas without freaking discharging the whip cream. Horrible. Party foul. horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Anyway, um, so they're not really siphons. So I don't really care. I don't care about that as much as I care about like other semantic nonsense like sous vide versus low temperature or molecular versus, you know, cooking, you
+
+[36:15] know? Uh, but I'm just saying, like, they're whippers, really, not deciphons, right? Okay. All right, all right. Enough, enough said on that. I recently purchased a used EC Profy Whip on eBay I like purchasing things on eBay, right? Now, the proffy whip is, it's meant for whipped cream. It's not meant. They didn't intend you to use it for other wacky cooking operations, but more on that to follow. The unit looks to be in good condition, but there was a dark, greasy
+
+[36:45] film, is Nastasia back yet, by the way, her phone cutout. Yeah I'm here. How do you like that greasy? I don't I don't like the way you see that. I don't like the way he says a lot of things. Yeah, that's true. I like it. Yeah nice. There was a dark, greasy film on the inside of the head and all over the rubber gasket. Oof. Something akin to engine grease. I've managed to wash it off, though I need a replacement gasket, but I was wondering what the heck it is. And if I should be concerned. The body itself didn't seem affected. Any ideas as to what nefarious or benign purposes, the previous owner may have put this whipper to that might have caused this
+
+[37:24] odd. Ooh, ready for this, Stas? Sebaceous residue. Whoa. Man. I know we did just call that dude a sebaceous residue. Damn. Anyway. So, you know what? It's like when any like, remember, you're making whipped cream in this thing. And when cream festers and gets old and sinks onto the surfaces of things, it turns into
+
+[37:50] a brown, greasy, nasty, stanky, like, like old dairy, just, just nasty. And this is why I tell people, and I'll tell you again, do not store the whippers with the freaking
+
+[38:08] lid screwed down. It just turns into nasty. Nasty, because unless you get all the stuff off, it's going to get nastier and nastier and nastier. You need to unscrew it, pull the gasket out, rinse the gasket
+
+[38:21] off, right? And then, like, put it all together in a way that's not screwed together, and you'll prevent this nastiness from happening. I've had ones where not only have they gone greasy, but moldy,
+
+[38:30] moldy, greasy, nasty, nasty. Now, if you were to boil that gasket, I'm sure it would come back
+
+[38:38] to, you know, being not so smelly eventually. I mean, I don't know whether you've permanently altered it, but anyway, onto the next part of your... I think that's probably just cream is my point. Um, Secondly, I have read, uh, in the
+
+[38:53] chef steps forum. Chef Steps, by the way, nominated for like a bunch of everything, like nominated for like up down, left, right for like, I don't know, best people, best people award, something like that. Everywhere, yeah. Uh, I have read in the Chef Steps Forum, that the proffy whip can be fitted with a silicone gasket from the gourmet slash thermo whip to make it compatible for hot applications.
+
+[39:13] Do you think this is a good idea? And if so, how should the gasket be oriented inside the head as the gourmet series gasket has a protruding flap on it not found on the
+
+[39:22] Prophy series gasket? What's the purpose of this flange and how should it sit within the head so as to not cause any unforeseen problems? Thanks for an informative and entertaining show. Cheers, Linus. Okay, so 1st of all, I'm sure most of you who can't instantly picture the inside of a
+
+[39:35] whipper are lost. So I'm going to walk you through this. I'm going to walk you through. For those of you that don't have the whipper in your head. Whipper is like all the whippers that have the stainless steel, all the EC whippers that have
+
+[39:48] a stainless steel bottom. Frankly, you can use in a hot application. The guys at EC are extremely extremely anal about what you can use in a hot and a cooking application and what you
+
+[39:58] can't, and a lot of it has to do with very arcane possible issues where someone might get burnt or blah, blah, blah,
+
+[40:05] blah, blah. I'm here to tell you the unit's going to work. All right? That's just a straight up thing. I'm extremely confident. I visited their factory. I've seen the stuff that they go through. I've seen the materials they use and they are like crazy nuts on all that. So you're going to be you're going to be okay. So you have the stainless bottom, which doesn't care whether it's hot or not, right? Now you have the head. Now, on the head, the different units have different, um, they have different valve technologies, right? Which some the EC guys won't that you use in certain applications or others. But it's not really a safety issue from terms of hot and cold because they can both be dishwashed. So you're not going to get hosed that way, right? Now, on the inside of the head. There is a gasket. Now, the silicone gasket can do like, obviously, very high temps because it's silicone. And that one is the one that they recommend for the cooking uses and the high temperature stuff. And that little flap that comes off of it is literally just a pull tab to make it easier to go in there and pull the
+
+[41:03] gasket out. The other one, I don't really know the rubber composition of it, but it's going to be fine. I'm telling you this from experience because I've had it hot a 1000000000 times and I've never had a problem. Now, maybe someone can EC can call me and tell me that, like, you know, I'm endangering myself, but I doubt it. The other one is a different rubber composition, and instead of that pull tab, It's got an inner ring that the whole ring flaps out and you can loop your finger into it and pull it out. Either one fits because the heads, I'm here to tell you, fit on the same bottoms. Every one of the professional things is completely interchangeable. So you can take the head of a one liter whipper and put it on a half liter whipper. You can take the head of a half liter whipper and put it onto
+
+[41:47] a, um, put it onto a thermo whip, which is the one that's, by the way, the thermo whip
+
+[41:54] is, uh, is to keep things hot, not to actually heat them up. So if you're going to heat up the actual whipper, then you don't want to use the thermal whip. The thermal whip is just to keep hot things hot for a long period of time, like a thermos, right? All the parts are interchangeable, including the gasket. So if you want to get a new gasket and you want to get the silicone one, because that's recommended for the hotter stuff, then go ahead and get it because the machining on the inside of the head is all the same. The other thing, like I said, the valves can be slightly different, but the actual threads and the seating stuff for the gasket, you're
+
+[42:23] going to be okay. And I know this from experience. Yeah? Yeah, you ever that? Yeah, all right. Um, I was like, I don't care. I don't care. Kevin wrote in. I started to listen to the show a few months ago and keep coming back because it's super informative and pretty
+
+[42:40] hilarious. Well, thank you. I have more personal questions for I have a more personal question. By the way, every week, Stas. We say your questions, cooking or otherwise. So here you go. Otherwise, this is the 1st time Nastasia has been called out, right? Oh, right. this one. I have a more personal question for Nastasia. It seems like whenever anyone mentions that you went to Stanford, the university, not Stanford, the town, which you also like. I love Stanford, the town. You know that. Yeah, yeah. The stars has this love affair with the town of Stanford, Connecticut. Not the actual city center, which by the way, I don't like the architecture there. I'm just saying, no offense to the WWE or WWF, whatever it is,
+
+[43:21] like the wrestling federation has their stuff there. But you like the waterfront there in Stanford. I like those. I like the Japan. I like one specific structure in Japan, yeah. Yeah, okay. Uh, see, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about Stan Ford. Stan Ford. Okay. The, the college founded by, or with the money from uh, Leland Stanford uh, in California. You were born there. I was born there. I was born there. Uh, and that's basically it. Like, we hightailed it out of there when I was 3 and, you know, not going to say never looked back. Nice over there. anyway, whatever. Dave is a Californian really cracks me up. Yeah, right? The fact that I'm a born Californian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the opposite of everyone. I was born in California. I moved here. like a smoothie sipping alfalfa sprout sandwich. Never freaking say that I mean, alfalfa sprout, anything. They are the devil. I challenge you to find anyone on earth that actually likes the flavor of those rancid things. No one likes them. They eat them because they think that they're good. I like the flavor. You like alfalfa sprouts? Get out. Well, what do you mean you like it? Do you like poison? No, I think it just has a nice fresh taste to it. It's not fresh. It's the opposite of fresh. It tastes like poison. Peter, I'm with you. You think, wait, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who. Oh, Stasi just does the bullet. They taste dirty and raw. To you. To me, they taste fresh, clean. Fresh, clean. so clean. Yeah, definitely. I'm with you. with you on this, man. Yeah. I mean, that is like a central dish, but... I think they get stuck in your freaking teeth. They're like, they look nasty. They look like they look like steel wool or something bad has happened. I actually, yeah, no, that's no problem. I think I think they're the worst. Yeah. I don't find it to be offensive at all. tastes good to me. I like sprouts in general though. Some people find partially offensive. Well, parsley, I mean, I love parsley. But, like, sprouts, they're they're actually physically, like,
+
+[45:21] full normally full of bacteria because of the terrible conditions in which they're produced, and they taste of it. They taste like they were grown in like somebody's shoe. And they are almost invariably raw. So they, listen, I realize everybody likes pea shoots, for instance. And I don't like them very much because of that raw flavor. I wish they would just be cooked a little bit. Because I don't like that starchy rawness. So you have the leftover uncooked, you know, seed, right? which has been festering and gunk because they had to keep it moist for all that time in a warm environment. And then a little kind of poorly textured nonsense popping out of it. What's good about that? You know, it's just a really fresh. Well, you say fresh. For me, that's the way I would describe it. Like mung bean sprouts, I love mung bean sprouts. It's a big part of Korean cuisine too. That's the only good sprout. You just mentioned the only good sprout. There are other good sprouts. I like broccoli sprouts. I like alfalfa sprouts. No, see, alfalfa, no, alfalfa. I like radish sprouts. Terrible. I like cooked sprouts. Yeah, yeah. Washed, like very thoroughly washed cooked sprouts. Well, so here's the question. Is it just the idea of it festering or is it it's also just
+
+[46:32] a flavor, too, right? Maybe the idea doesn't depend. Okay. Okay, here's what I freaking hate. So it takes, like, they make what would otherwise be an okay sandwich, and then they put this mess of hairy, dirty tasting nonsense on top. And then you're like, ah, ah, and you can't even pick them all out because when you rip, take it off. Like some of it invariably is embedded and whatever else is in this thing. You can't get it out and like one of them reeks of the freaking sprout container that these nasty things were produced in.
+
+[47:03] Yeah, all right. Wow. Yeah, I know. Somebody like More than one. Every time it happens to me. You know who likes them? People who like raps. Yeah. I think they're hand in hand. Undercooked tortillas and freaking sprouts. I'm imagining a bully who wore like a varsity jacket, shove Dave against the lockers in high school and like made him force him to eat an alfalfa sprout rap. I mean, it's just horrible. like you just have to pretend that you're not alive for the couple minutes while you're eating it. It's like, it's not that bad. I mean, like, I can eat anything. You know what I mean? It's just, I would never ruin food with it. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, we're together on the rap thing, but sprouts, I like them. So how about Stanford? Dave is frozen right now. No, I thought you guys were gonna... No, no, no. No stuff. You're not getting deflected. back, I'm back. Okay. Nastasia, it seems like whenever anyone mentions he went to Stanford. You don't want to talk about it and refer to it as that place you went to college in quotes. As a current Stanford undergrad. I am curious. What was your experience at Stanford like? Also, how the heck did you start working for Dave? So, uh, best Kevin class of uh, 15. So graduating this year, this year. Wow, good, good from here. No, I didn't need it, and I'm not, and I'm not trying to be like, me, me, me, me, feel sorry for me when I talk about this, but I worked 40 hours a
+
+[48:33] week, and I took the full load while I was there, and I just didn't really have much of a Stanford experience, because I was more worried about paying the money. Uh, paying the commission off and I graduated in 3 years
+
+[48:47] just to get out of there, um, because I was sick of paying that money. And yeah, that's that's it. That's fair. a really fair answer. Yeah, you didn't, but the thing about it is, what you're saying is, is it has nothing to do with the college. It has to do with the fact that you don't feel like you got the standard college experience. Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah, right, right. All right. But you have nothing against it. I mean, it's a pretty, it's pretty campus, right? It's a pretty campus. Do you have Sputnik flying through your hair? What's going on here? Are you on a spaceship? No, no. It's a metal detector on the beach. Yeah, yeah. Oh, she's out on the beach? Did you find it like an old half dollar or something? Someone's gold ring that they lost in the surf? Was it mine? You know, I lost my I lost a gold ring in the surf one. I lost one of my wedding wings in the surf. Oh, yeah. And then you said all the women and for the rest of that trip kept checking you out. That no, that was a different trip. That was a different trip. I've lost my wedding ring. I've lost it off my finger twice. And once in a surf, and once, I swear to God, milking a cow. It was either when I was milking the cow or when I was doing the dishes. So I had this event I was doing in New Orleans and I was washing a lot of dishes and then I was also milking a cow and it's when I was milking
+
+[50:06] the after I milked the cow that I noticed because they were doing fresh syllabub, I noticed that my ring was gone. And the 3rd one that I lost, it got crimped around my finger and had to be cut off. Oh my good. So that's why now I have stainless steel wedding band and it's like, you know, never get crimped. So you're telling me somebody found a gold ring in their cereal bowl? All right, in the surf. You know, that's what Stas is doing right now. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Oh, wait. And the other half of that question is how did I meet you? We met through Chesre on a farm trip. Uh, and we were in the same car. Yeah, we were in the same car and that's when we bonded over. I think we just told the story on the air. We bonded over this crazy anti-Semite. Yeah. Yeah. He was like, I can find you anywhere. He's like, he was, did we tell the story anything, I remember? He says, he goes, he goes, you know what? People, they always make a mistake. I can always find him. You know what they don't give up? The car. They don't give up their car. They'll give up their wife. They give up their kids. They don't give up their cards, then I'll find them. Yeah. And then he's like, plus I hate Jews. And we're like, what the whoa! And we're in a car with this guy for hours. He's driving us and like, he wasn't that blatant about it, but almost, right, Stars? Sounds like the guy from Iglorious Bastards. I mean, it was like the most random thing in the world. I was like, I was like, what are you supposed to do? Like, you're trapped in a car with a fuck... I have one question. Sorry, I almost almost dropped that. You trapped in a car with like a vicious anti-Semite. What are you supposed to do? Yeah, you become friends with the person who's not an anti-semite. Yeah, and so that's why we're working together now. Yes. We literally, Bonnie, we're like, we were the only people in the car that we weren't afraid of. So essentially the bar got lowered low enough to allow for the possibility of friendship to develop between the
+
+[52:00] 2 of you. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like just somebody with like a mild, like a touch of racism. You guys wouldn't have like. We never would have worse together. No, no, exactly. could have just shrugged it off. exactly. But it was like, it was like that kind of like, like nuclear bomb blast of, holy crap, you know, he's saying this now. Yeah, kind of like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, you know, when someone says something, it's... One of those things. Wait, so, Dave, I had one question. Somebody doesn't believe that we saw John George working in a sailor suit. Who doesn't believe that? That's just truth. That the truth. Look, we did an event. I don't even remember what the event was for, but it was at... But do you have a photo? And I'm like, no, I don't take photos. Look, we're people. We're working. know what I mean? Nastasia made me dress in a shirt, like a light denim shirt, 8 times too small for me with
+
+[52:59] a fuzzy, like appliquade sheep on it. What? And a rainbow and a rainbow. Yeah. Which you own that shirt now. And Jean George and Greg Brainan were there for Jean George. They were doing a lobster roll and they were dressed in sailor's outfits, like straight up. And you know what? Big props, or big ups, as we might say, to JG for kicking enough behind that he can show up in a sailor's outfit. And why were you wearing what you were wearing? Because Nastasia made me. Why else am I doing anything? All right, let's get us some questions. I hate to do this, guys. It so much time. All right, I'll rip one minute. All right. Brett Humphrey's right in saying about centrifuges. I'm going to have to go back to jet wine speed. First, I wanted to thank you for the many years of enjoyment through the cooking issues blog. If it hadn't been for that blog, I never would have gone to the Fruit and Spice Park in Florida. Good times, right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah. Not of the way place, but great fun. I always recommend anyone's going to be in South Dade to go to the Fruit and Spice Park. Awesome. But try to get a special tour so you can actually taste the fruit. You know how tropical fruit people are. anyway. Or maybe you don't. I recently bought a copy of your book, Liquid Intelligence, and also spend an enjoyable evening at Booker and Dax. The book inspired me to buy a centrifuge and apparently I've picked up one similar to what you use at Juan 412. That is very similar to what I use. 3 that are benchtop fuse. Fuge. This was bought, used, and I understand all the risks and concerns associated with such a purchase. I'm working to get it up and running, but have a question. What do you use for centrifuge bottles? In your book, one picture shows them pouring directly into the bucket. I do not believe you would actually use the bucket directly. Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated again. Thank you for the interesting lessons throughout the years, regards Brett Humphreys. In fact, I do use the bucket directly for many years. I didn't. And then I was like, you know what? I'm just going to use the freaking bucket. You want to make sure that you don't put anything into the bucket that's going to hot. Look, the buckets are anodized aluminum. If the anodization, if the anodized coding is good, I don't think you're going to damage the aluminum much with the very short amount of time that
+
+[55:00] acids like juices are sitting in it. don't let stuff sit in the bucket for a long time, but there's no bottle that works really well. I used to make little vacuum. I used to take a sealer and bags and form little like kind of lunch bags that fit in it to get it out, but all the bottles suck because you have to unscrew them. They have a throat, et cetera, et cetera. So I spin directly in the buckets. Downside. You can't fill up too much. If you fill up too much, you can spill stuff as it spins up and spins down. You have to make sure the pins on the buckets are nice and smooth so you don't get any like flap around while it's going. But yes, I do spin directly in the buckets. Make sure you never use, put them in a dishwasher, put the turf. Anything would harm aluminum. you don't want to do. Listen, they're going to kick me off the air, but Brian, Brian Van Claverin, I have your question on ham for next week. I'll start off with it next week on how to keep a ham for a long time because what is what is the definition of forever? Two people in a Virginia ham? We're going to get going on it next week, how to keep your ham, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[56:14] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:06] ingredients, and tools. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for Thousand Sports.
+
+[0:28] All right, should I Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Dave. Happy birthday to you. Very nice. Very, very nice, very nice. All right, now, before we start, thank you. At what age do I get to say years young instead of years old? I don't know. When you're like 60? Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. 44 years young. All right, so here's the here's the here's the question. Should I should I do this NPR style or should I start this like regular cooking issue style? I think regular cooking issue style, we can take it from the top.
+
+[1:16] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking is just coming to you live on
+
+[1:20] Rebird's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined as usual with Nostasia, the Hammer, Lopez. Got you in the engineering booth. Call 100 questions, 27184. What is it? 718-4972128. That's 718-497-2128. You like that one better than the NPR style? I prefer the NPR style. Hello? Yeah, I do. I've heard feedback from listeners that like, it's in the lock. because they usually listen in the morning and so the yelling is like, but maybe it's like you could use it as like your... For me, it gets me ready for what's to come, you know? Hello, welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues, broadcasting live out of the studios in Roberta's Pizzawia, Bushwick Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio
+
+[2:06] Network every Tuesday, from roughly 12 to 1245. Call in your live questions 2718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. like that one. You like that one better? I don't know. I don't know. We can put it to a vote. Yeah. Write us in, guys. us know which one you want. Tweet, tweet at heritage. Heritage underscore radio. Yeah, that underscore is kind of a killer, huh? Gotta love the underscore. Is the other one owned by the, by the, like, uh, the foundation? Yeah, I don't think so. That is unrelated to you guys. I don't know who the regular heritage radio on Twitter is. Oh, it's a dead account, the other heritage radio. Well, the other heritage radio, the false heritage radio. The other at Heritage Radio Regular has one tweet, and it says, it's from 2009. It says, I am planning next week's syndicated old time radio show. No other tweets. That's, yeah. I was like, I'm not, we have no bottle opener here, and Jack
+
+[3:01] has it. I'm just going to use your table here. Old school, because I don't have like even like a knife with me, so I don't feel like a, as Nastasia would say, you're only half a
+
+[3:11] man because you don't have your knife with you. But, uh, you know, I'm of the, uh, so what'd you do for your birthday yesterday? I worked, fell asleep. I worked. I ate leftovers and I fell asleep. Like that? No, sad. I was going to go out to the bar and hang, but I, you know. It looked like people were there for you. No, they weren't, they were there for, they were eating dinner. It's not, it's good. Anyway. So the point that, yes, whatever. Like, you know, birthdays, when once you, you know, once you're, you know, my age, you know, birthday is fun. It's nice, you know, I cooked a big meal on Sunday because the birthday's on a Monday. Monday birthday is like, what are you going to do on a Monday birthday? everyone's got to work. You know what I'm saying? Anyways. But you got a tandor. Oh, yeah. So big news for, well, so next week is Easter. And so, uh, of course, what do you, when you're gonna cook Easter dinner, what do you do? You buy a tandor. So I drove to, uh, plus also, I've mentioned before, I'm going to do a big outdoor kitchen, but I've really been kind of researching kind of what I'm
+
+[4:09] going to do. I going to build a, an old school bread oven. I considered maybe buying a bread oven and then just putting it in, but I think I'm just going to actually build it from scratch. But the problem is, is that when you're pouring the concrete and doing all this, you have like days and days where it's going to take a long time. It's going to take probably the better part of this season for me to actually be able to build the bread oven if I'm only working, you know, on, you know, every other weekend or something to do it.
+
+[4:29] So it's going to take a while. So like, what can I do right now? I can just get a tandor. And you can buy for not that much? I mean, it's expensive, but not that much money, just a completely built-in tandor. They build the tandor liner, uh, you know, with the whatever hairy crap they put into the clay, the clay,
+
+[4:45] they, in deli, they put it inside of a stainless steel trash can fundamentally, and then they put refractory cement around
+
+[4:51] it. They give you some skewers, a little bread cushion. You Hanan works, right? With a bread cushion. So they give you a little bread cushion. And you're ready to go. So, you know, I'm going to be doing oh, I got to call Patrick Martins. Listen, peoples, if you need lamb for Easter, which I'm sure you do. There is still time to go to Heritage Meats and purchase some of their lambs. Are you familiar with the lamb and heritage meat, Jack? I know you... Yeah. Tunis lamb, if I'm not mistaken. Really? From Tunisia, I would guess. Both guys know from lamb. Anyway. So the point being, I'm going to try and I'm going to try
+
+[5:31] and like sneak some lamb from Patrick and I'm going to do, I'm going to do Mediterranean flavors,
+
+[5:36] tandoor cooking. What do you think? That's good. Do you like you like kebabs of lamb? Really? You've had them and don't like them? Yeah. Why? Why? What the hell? Although I had, uh, from a food truck last night. Is that, is that your new, that sounds, from a food truck sounds like a, like a novel, like your 1st novel from a food truck? What's that called? What's what called? You shave it off. Which version of it? Shawarma? Yeah, no, no. It was called something. Zero? Yeah. It was really good. Donor? No. Uh yeah. I don't know. So that's like pulped lamb and other stuff. Yeah, I just sound like the crusty lamb with all the spices on the outside. You know, you know Stas, you never cease in finding new ways to culinarily disappoint me. You don't like the crusty deliciousness on the outside of a lamb kebab? No, I don't. don't like some of those flavors. What is it, cumin? You don't like cumin? don't like cumin. You don't like chili? See, that's, remember when you yelled at me for not putting cumin in the chili and you were like, it's not chili? It's tomato stew. Right. That, yeah. Until you had the cumin. At which point, well, or be, you know, beef stew. beef stew. And a rather crappy beef stew at that until you add freaking
+
+[6:54] cumin. That is, uh, that is not cool stuff. Okay, so back to the, although now I can't get that out of my head. Oh, cheers. What about the, well, his glasses. What about the, um, what about the, like the Russian version of uh, of lamb kebabs? I haven't had that. Kursky Shasleik? the Russian? You would like that because it's not spiced. That's great, yeah. Well, that's what I'm going to make. It's not going to be there. Well, someday you will come up. Someday you will come up and we'll get the lamp anyway. we're going off topic. Has that ever happened before that we've gone off topic? Never. It's never happened Anyway, I'm very excited about the tandor. I have to, um, there's, you're one of the big things when you get a tandors. It's clay, right? So like people, 1st you have to pre-fire it. So I got to do the pre-firing with charcoal. And that stops it from cracking because remember when we made the fake tandor for Anthony Bourdain? Yes, I do. And we cracked it because we fired it real hard, real fast. We tried to do a pre-fire, but we did. We did that stuff back then and that was less hardcore than what? I mean, legally hardcore. What do you mean? The legality of what we did was not... Nobody cared. Anyway. So, yeah, so, you know, and we made that tandor and what, like, like a day, less than a day. We did the old school, like, 2 flower pot, tandor, and we drilled a hole in the bottom for the charcoal thing, put it in a trash can, surrounded with insulations. And the food was delicious. But anyway, but now a little more hardcores. I gotta do a pre-firing of it. And then the big bone of contention with the tandors is that you have to
+
+[8:24] season the inside of it, like with a mixture of like. he hasn't used it? Who? The guy. He sells them new. I went to his warehouse in New Jersey. You can go to this warehouse in New Jersey and the guy will just hand you a tandor. Well, it's like 350 pounds, but he'll hand it to you. He has actually a giant warehouse dude who looks like a giant warehouse
+
+[8:40] dude complete with the sweet warehouse dude beard. And he, like, picks up the thing and puts it in the back of your station wagon. Anyways. Uh, yeah. right out there in Jersey, like 20 minutes from New York. You can just go buy it. Pick it up. Thanks, yeah. So I hate to have to say this, but I have a caller on the line who's upset with the way you treated her
+
+[8:59] vagetti. Oh my goodness. Hi Dave. Oh my goodness. I am so embarrassed. That's the greatest. That's the greatest. thing that's ever happened to me. So, Dave, I was listening a couple weeks ago and I heard you were talking badly about the
+
+[9:27] Vegetti. Uh, just the name, the name. The name. But you don't trust the noodle, the product. No, you don't trust the product. You said that noodle, uh... You said that you didn't trust the product. We were talking about vegetable noodles. Well they're not a new frier. noodle. It's not, I think it could be an interesting... I think it could be an interesting, look, I mean, I think like shredded, like, daikon shreds and strips are delicious, right? Many shredded things are just... or like strips, noodle... Spiralize. Oh my gosh. You know what? All right, all right. And so you have a, you have a, you have a vested steak in the, in the
+
+[10:12] veggetti device or more just a love for it. I have a what? Are you like part of the Vegeti Corporation or do you just have just have? No, I just, I got one. because I'm, you know, trying to cut back on the car and it changed my life. I mean, you can, you can use it for everything. Like, um, the jetty carbonara, the jetty, and meatballs. I mean, it's like. Wait, did you say veggetti and meatballs? I mean, it's amazing. You can do veggetti fritters. Yeah. looks like he wants to kill himself. You ever done like sausage and veggie sausage in the gravy with the veggie? I'm not gonna, here's a, here's a okay. And what's your favorite things to veggetti eyes? Or spiralize, as you would say. What are your favorite things to spiralize in the veggetti? Well, I pretty much exclusively spiralized zucchini of the green and yellow variety. But doesn't that just turn around? I've never really done anything else. I don't, I think that, you know, it has to be um, a little bit soft. I think that like a potato or a carrot would be a little too much for the
+
+[11:25] spiralizer tea, you know. Now, how big is the opening to the? To the fagetti. How big is the opening to it? Like what size of a veg can you stick into that thing? I mean, like a zucchini size. You could do a cucumber. You could do like a cold cucumber salad. You could put a cucumber in the baghetti. Okay. All right, all right. All right, hold on. Well, here's my question, though. Dave, I'm going to send you one for your birthday. All right. Well, we'll play around with it. And why don't you experiment with it? And then, you know, I'll call back in and we can go from there. That's a fair deal. That's a fair deal. All right, will do. I haven't busted out a lot of, like, we haven't done a lot of side by side, so, like, you know, culinary tests in the past year or so because I've been, you know, focused more on bar and the cookbook and everything and the sears all.
+
+[12:19] But we will definitely reopen our testing our, the testing phase of our career with the veggetti. I look forward to it. Thanks, Claire. Oh, thank you. And I'll say that the sears all in Vegetti are a great match. We'll test it for you. When you send it, send your favorite things that you like to do. Thanks. Oh, my God. Okay. For those of you that don't know. Uh, that, well, I guess, you know, you know, if you listen to the previous conversation, you you know what the Vegetti does for a living. Oh, man. So we were talking about the Tandors. So whenever you're, when you, when you, when you fire Tandor for the 1st time, you, um,
+
+[13:03] you, you, you know, protect the, uh, the clay from later thermal shock, right? But then you have to put a seasoning on the inside. So I'm trying to figure out whose recipe for seasoning you need because people mix
+
+[13:13] like sugar and mustard oil and like eggs and spinach and they rub it all on the inside. The theory being that I guess it affects like the patina and whether or not the
+
+[13:22] nons will stick to it properly and then release properly when they're when they're cooked. But expect me to go on kind of a tandor frenzy for the next. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna probably do Mediterranean style lamb with spices that you might appreciate. Uh, for Easter, along with just non after non after non. You like non, right? Yeah, yeah. Everybody likes none. Anyone in the engineering booth, not like non? Do I have to get an argument over here? on. Garlic naan is my favorite. Yeah? You like the garlic naan? Yeah. I like plain. I don't know why. I like plain. What about you, Stas? I like playing. I like playing. Yeah, in general, you like, you know, plain. Oh, I have to recover from that. All right, so, um, last week we had, uh, we had a question we didn't get to from uh, Brian Van Claverin, uh, about
+
+[14:12] ham. Hey, Dave Hammer and the boost squad. Ooh, I like that. B squad. Yeah, me too. Yeah, Jackie molecules in the booth squad. Oh, man. Yeah, well, it's like it's almost like you become like the terror squad. Yeah. Man, terror squad. All right. I received my 1st country ham last week, a half of a Colonel Bill Newsom's country ham. Colonel Bill Newsom's out of, by the way, I believe it's Princeton, Kentucky. I think is where they're from, but there, uh, Nancy Mahaffey, uh, is the is the ham curing uh, master there, and she's been doing it for a long time. I think she took over the business. It's got to be like maybe 15, 20 years ago now, at least, I think. I don't know. It's been a long time. I haven't spoken to her in years, but, um, Her hams are done according to the recipe that they've had in the family since their family was in Virginia, you know, 100s of years
+
+[14:59] ago, and they do ambient curing. So ambient curing, meaning they really only cure one time of year when it starts getting cold out, and then they don't do a refrigerated cure process. They would have, they do it in the way that you would have done it before you had refrigeration. So she has, you know, every year she produces a different batch, some of which she saves for long enough to do 2 and
+
+[15:19] 3 year old age hands, although they all get bought up right now because she has, you know, pretty wide cult phony, following the thing I like about her hand. She also doesn't, for what it's worth, she does. I believe she's a non-nitrite, adding, uh, non-nitrate,
+
+[15:33] adding, uh, person, but I can't remember. But anyways, I think the interesting thing about her hams in particular, is that they, they, I've never been to her curing area, but apparently it's near a pretty swampy region and maybe that's why, but they,
+
+[15:50] like, at their best, her hams have a particular kind of funky, almost at the back of your mouth, blue
+
+[15:56] cheese kind of a note that I think are indicative of her best hands. And so whenever I taste one of her hams, I like taste to see whether it has that particular note to it, in which
+
+[16:05] case, then, you know, I'm like, oh, that's the real deal. Uh, and the only other hams I've had that have that blue cheese note are, is a ham that my wife smuggled back to me from China, which when we go visit production, we can, we're
+
+[16:17] going to go on a Hamathon in China. Can't wait. Cannot wait. Anyway, that was not... So I've got a few questions on storing it and slicing it. For storing, I just put it in a brown paper sack and fold up the end tightly inside my kitchen cabinet. Then I set the ham in a bag on a metal grate trivet. Online, it's mentioned to use cloth or wrap or to wrap it in paper. So I figured this is close, but I'm still on the lookout for a cotton bag or something. My house has a California cooler, which is a vented food storage box, which I could use for food storage as well. The conditions inside there for the next several months will probably be around 52 to 64 degrees and around 75% average humidity, maybe a bit higher, whereas the cabinet would be a tad warmer and
+
+[16:58] drier. Of course, I could always just use the fridge, but the other spaces are more plentiful. Of the options between us, a kitchen cabinet, a California cooler and a fridge, what would be ideal? And because I got half a hand, there's quite a bit of meat that's already exposed. Is it necessary to cover sliced areas with some sort of fat? I prefer not to use lard or shortening with hydrogenated oils if possible. Why though? I wonder why. Dunno. Why? Don't know. All right. So I was wondering if peanut oil or something might be a decent substitute. If not, I do have some leaf lard I can render down if I need to. I'm wondering what the best way to slice is. I've looked at instructions for slicing both country hams and Spanish hams. Most of what I've seen for country hams look like they instruct you to cut perpendicular like a spiral
+
+[17:40] cut, or at least closer to being perpendicular to the bone, which seems to be better for frying or
+
+[17:46] whatnot. I like whatnot's a good one, right? Whatnot. For the Spanish hams, the cuts seem to be closer to being parallel to the bone. If I'm primarily eating it uncooked with very thin slices. What is the best way to cut it? Thanks, Brian from San Francisco, California A. Okay, now, let's go, you want to go in reverse order? Let's go in reverse order. All right, 1st of all, how to cut a ham. Now, the age old, uh, this is like, this is the heart of the, and I've spent a lot of, uh,
+
+[18:12] time, figuring out whether you should cut a ham, uh, across the grain, the way that we traditionally eat all hams in
+
+[18:19] this country. And by that, I mean, even when they're eating crudo style. I'm talking prosciutto and even the average American slicing a Spanish ham is going to slice
+
+[18:27] it, um, across the grain. Now, my feeling, borne out by research that I've done now, like, did over 10 years ago, so I have, there's probably, I'm sure there's been a lot
+
+[18:38] of, uh, recent, got, much more recent scholarship on, on this, not that what I was doing was scholarship, but it was for the ham exhibit I did back in
+
+[18:46] 04. was that traditionally meets our, uh, hams like this were sliced. If they were going to be eaten in a crudo style, were sliced, the way a Spanish ham was, in that, in that, to this day, you know, the, uh, Italian folks who, you know, are more artisanal at it doing
+
+[19:05] it, will slice it, uh, the long way, that is, uh, horizontally, that
+
+[19:10] is, with, uh, you know, with the grain running along it in a long strip. This does several things. It produces a much chewier piece of meat,
+
+[19:21] uh, and it allows you to section the entire length of, uh, or not the entire length, but a larger length of the ham in in one in one slice. So, it gives you a chewier thing and more textual variation. And also, uh, let's be honest, most ham, a hand ham slicing isn't so
+
+[19:38] good, so it gets like thick and thin and thick and thin and thick and thin. Remember that time we were doing it and everyone was laughing at each other. Everyone was telling how everyone else was a crap hole. And then as soon as you said someone else was doing a good job, then they would break through and mess it up.
+
+[19:50] was at the farm. Yeah, it was fun. Anyways. So, uh, the point is, is that uh, the people who like that style, like that style. Now, the crosscut that we have now, really, I believe, didn't, it never came into vogue in terms of crudo ham serving, until the invention of the meat
+
+[20:08] slicer by a fellow named Van Berkel, who of the Berkel
+
+[20:13] meat slicer. So those, and those, the original ones were completely vertical, the ones that you see in the fancier shops with the vertical
+
+[20:20] blade. And actually, the original ones were amazingly frightening looking because it was literally a large spinning blade with no guards at
+
+[20:27] all. They're fantastically frightening. You ever seen the pictures of those stars? There's a picture of what looks like a, uh, you know, a 2015 Brooklynite, i.e. he's got like a huge hipster kind of mustache on him,
+
+[20:38] and standing in front of this machine with, oh my god, imagine if we got one of those old ones and like set it up and then like force hipsters to use
+
+[20:45] it. Their hands would get cut off like left and right. No blade guards on this thing. They don't use their hands to hold on to the bike fixes anyway, right? Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. The only time I've been heavily damaged in the kitchen was with a meat slicer. Well, I mean, other than being horribly burnt. But I mean, with a knife, and a lie. Yeah, but I mean, what I meant to say is the only time I've been really, really badly cut in a kitchen was
+
+[21:04] on the was on a meat slicer. And that was like a semi-modern one with a bunch of guards on it. Like, I'm holding my thumb even just thinking about feeding my thumb into the edge of that blade, which is, anyway,
+
+[21:14] um, I've thankfully never, you know, severed huge, you know, any, whatever. Um, yet yet. Wow. Uh, yeah, you don't want to know it, that's just it. Anyways, the point is that the advent of that slicing technology has kind of like led not only to the luncheon meat phenomenon that you
+
+[21:33] have. Remember Blimpy back in the day? Yeah. Fresh Lice, Blimpy. still exist? You still have Blimpy's? Anyways. Um, but led to this idea of cross-cut hams. And the ability to slice them very, very thin. And all Americans grew up who grew up eating Americans that grew up eating prosciutto and other crudo style hams grew up eating it this way. And I have to say I like it. I like cross-cut ham. Cross-cut ham is 5000 times like, I don't know, it's more supple. It hangs like a fabric in your hands. You can put up to your nose, sniff it in a way that you can't, I
+
+[22:11] think the long kind of stiffer strips. Um, and I like it. And it's and it's sections a different thing. Instead of sectioning along the length, it sections whatever particular muscle group you're on right now all the way through. So I like it. But that said, it's a matter of taste. I don't believe as other people believe that there's a right answer or wrong answer. I think it's what you want. If you want that more tender, thinner slice, go
+
+[22:34] cross-cut, if you want to sample all the different pieces and you like that textual variation, go horizontal.
+
+[22:41] But I will say it's incredibly difficult to try to make good cross-cut slices by hand. So if you don't have a meat slicer, I would I would slice it more traditionally, get like a long, thin, uh, or straight slicer and and learn to
+
+[22:53] a slice, uh, serrano style. Make sense? Okay. Now, as for what was the middle part of the question, the middle part of the question was, um, quite a bit of meat already exposed. So, the fact of the matter is, is that any meat that you leave exposed will, uh, you want to keep it in, you know, not too dry an environment or it's going to
+
+[23:13] overdry. It's going to dry out. But any piece of meat that you leave exposed will end up, depending on how long you store it, drying out to the same extent that a, um, that the
+
+[23:24] fit. So if you look at a ham, like a standard, like American country ham, there is a portion of the meat that's exposed, you know, where you severed the leg from the pig, right? The face of the of the ham there where you've severed. There's that exposed meat. And eventually any cut surface will approach the same level of desiccation as that face section of meat, which maybe you
+
+[23:45] like, maybe you don't. I would believe that any oil covering would help somewhat ameliorate that problem, you could probably even literally store it in oil. You know what I mean? With a complete cover of like in a gallon zippy with like oil around it to prevent. I don't know. I've never tried it, but I'm sure that would work. But that said, the old school folks, in fact, in mountain in Spanish mountain hams, and in Italian, actually, in Italian hams, right? They'll, uh, I forget, do you remember what they mix in with the with the lard? They mix some sort of flour with the lard, but I forget what it is and paste it over the face. That's why the face of a prosciutto is that kind of like whitish color when they're curing it. Um, and that prevents um, rapid moisture loss through the face. And so what that means is, is that, is that the meat will be relatively similar levels of dryness throughout
+
+[24:35] the muscle, whereas if you look at a crosscut of an American ham, you'll notice that the meat that's closer to the face, substantially darker, substantially drier, has a different texture and different taste therefore, than the main cushion of the meat, which is up and usually very,
+
+[24:50] very much softer. So anyway. And in the old days, yeah, you would rub lard and probably with some other mixture, some crap with it so that it doesn't drip out on you. I don't know. And that's what, I remember, I think it was Morris Burger from Burger's Smokehouse in Hollywood. I think I believe they're in Hollywood, uh, in the Ozarks, but the town is called. I think it's the town's called Hollywood, which would be pretty awesome. Anyway, he used to say that what they would do is they would go out. They would hang their hams on a wire because the rats in the barn, couldn't hold onto the wire, right? So they couldn't climb down a wire to get to the hams, and then they would slather lard. They would cut the piece off. They then they would slather it with lard and hang it hang it back up on the wire. and that's the way they would keep their hams out in the barn. When he was a kid. And then they would go scrape off, slice another frying slice
+
+[25:38] out and then put the, the, the lard back on and go and that's how they would keep it. So that should work fine. Now as to where you should keep your hands. I used to hang my hams. There's 2 there's 3 There are several enemies to hams. So the 1st enemy is over desiccation. I would guess probably in San Francisco, that's not going to be too much of a problem. The other 2 enemies are bugs, specifically
+
+[26:05] like things that bore into the meat, these like little
+
+[26:09] beetles. I hate them. I hate them. And you can see like you'll get like little bore holes in your hand where those freaking beetles get in. Now this is where screening is going to help you, right? And any sort of thing like that is going to help because once they hit, they'll hit all the hams that you have that have exposed meat,
+
+[26:26] right? So the bag should probably prevent this, like the cloth bag, it will probably prevent this. Some papers and sacks probably prevent this. So you won't have that problem. The other problem is freaking mites. Now, mites, they form like a dusty powder and you'll notice a dusty powder accumulating under your hams because these mites get
+
+[26:45] there. And I don't think any screen. I'm not sure, but I don't think any screen is going to prevent you from, once you have the mites on the ham, and for me it was, I brought a mighty ham in, mighty ham. I brought a mighty ham in, and then all the rest of my hams got contaminated with the mites. And I spoke to, um, I spoke to, uh, uh, Sam Edwards from
+
+[27:05] SLS Edwards's son, uh, a supporter of our network, by the way. And he was like, yeah, like unless you have treatments for it, like in your home, you don't typically treat for mites, unless you treat for it,
+
+[27:16] like once you get a mite in, once you get mites in there, you're done. You gonna have the mites. And nobody, the mites, they make that powdery stuff. I mean, I don't know that they hurt the hand, but it's kind of an irritant. So, storing it in the fridge. The problem with storing it in the fridge wrapped in paper is that you'll get some moisture coming up to the surface
+
+[27:34] there and I've gotten mold on the paper, which is not a big problem, but you have to kind of wash it off. So I would just kind of hang it out maybe in your California cooler. I think it should be good temperature fluctuation, not bad. It'll just keep aging. You just got to worry about over desiccation, uh, which you could probably fix using uh, some form of large spread over the face in a meat or some stuff like this. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. take a break. Yeah. Let's take a break. Come back with more cooking issues. Uh oh. What, we're not? We're not going to a commercial break? All right. Jacking molecules, not ready with his...
+
+[28:34] Hey, what's up, guys? It's me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler.
+
+[28:58] So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further resource, should you want to get some of the things he's talking
+
+[29:06] about, molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[29:13] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chef scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place, molecularecipes.com. And just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[29:42] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. And we're back. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You say invisible foods, Jackie Molecules? Can't say them. Can't see them. How do you know how to show this? No, you know like if you go to the website, you'll see. There's like invisible raviolis and stuff. Oh, see, see. You can, I guess it would be see-through. Yeah, I mean, like, I'll tell you what, if I could sell invisible food, I'd be a
+
+[30:20] rich, look at all the invisible food in front of you right now, Jack. Pay me. Transparent and see-through. I like that. I like transparency through. As you all know, anyone that's met me knows that I enjoy, I enjoy some clarified products. Yeah, some distilled products. Listen, go to the, go to their website, check it out and, you know, hopefully you're going to find something that you desperately need and order it to show
+
+[30:46] that that, you know, their sponsorship is worthwhile. Am I right, Jack? I'm eating invisible scallops right now, by the way. Oh my god, how do they taste? Really good. They're seared perfectly. Really? Yep. Yeah. Even the searing is invisible? Yep. Dang. Dang. You know, remember the 1st time someone I remember, uh, because, um, the Rokas, right? So the, you know, Geordi, the brother, Roka, who's the pastry chef, or I guess still is, at
+
+[31:12] L. Clark and Roka, um, he was using their Rotovap because they were kind of pioneers of Rotovap, and he was making all of these perfectly colorless, clear desserts, like with the flavor of X, Y, and Z,
+
+[31:25] like years ago. It was kind of a mind blowing, mind blowing experiment back in the day. Uh, way back in the day. Anyway, okay, questions. Uh, Eddie Nell writes in about Pepper. Hey, Dave and the crew. I'm in love with the oils produced via the chef step technique. So you look up on chef steps, time oil. It's basically they do, they vacuum bag, and then cook their thyme with the oil and other spices at
+
+[31:50] 55C for 3 hours. Uh, okay. So far we go through a ton of time in rosemary oil at my house. Now thinking about adapting that method for black pepper oil. Obviously, we'll need longer extract time and heat question and heat. But where would you start on a process for that? Thanks. Uh, Eddie? Okay. Well, that's a good question. I've never, I've never, since I haven't done it, right? I'm like, I'm not going to give any numbers here. What I'm going to say is I would, I would set up test batches, small test batches. So the 1st thing you're gonna, uh, want to do is I would test a range of, uh, the short answer is no, I don't have any recommendations. Here's a long answer. I would save a bunch of test batches with a different kind of grinds of the pepper. Different peppers, 1st of all. I mean, obviously, you know black pepper is not a kind of unitary thing. You can get like Malabar, you can get Telicherry. you can get, you know, a bunch of different kinds. And so even like a trip, if you live here in New York, you can just go to Kalustians, or even a dual specialty or any of these places, and you can buy 5 or 6 different kinds of pepper, and we used to do that. Remember we used to have those pepper tastings in China? Did you like that tasting? Yeah that was fun. We did it basically on butter with bread, right? Because the butter helped like spread it out. so we would just do butter bread and pepper. We'd smell it by itself. And in fact, there are stark and huge differences between the different kinds of peppers,
+
+[33:13] right? Right? Yeah, yeah. Even you agreed. Yes. Yeah. The lady who thinks it all ketchup tastes the same. Um, the... So back to this. So what I would do is I would 1st try to figure out which kind of pepper you want to
+
+[33:28] use. And then I would try whole, uh, cracked, uh, and fine. And then I would, because I've done pepper with liquor, right? In fact, I think I have one black pepper tincture in the book. And for that, I tested a variety of grinds, but I've never done it in a variety of peppers, but I've never done it in oils.
+
+[33:46] That's why it's, and then I would test a variety of temperatures. Uh, and then I would see, test those temperatures to see which temperature regime you like best in terms of balance. And then after you do, uh, and I would test like maybe 3 different temperatures, like low medium and high, and then, uh, and then in between those temperatures, I would test probably another
+
+[34:06] two, and then I would test duration of time. So you're going to have to run a bunch of tests, but in the end, you'll be able to get something that you really like and then you can tweet us back and tell us what you like. But I'll say another thing is that I am reminded years ago, Steingarten called me on the phone. And he said, Jeffrey Steingarten, you know, like one of my, you know, culinary writing idols.
+
+[34:27] Um, saw him recently, or talked to him recently. Anyways. Remember when he was on the show? Yep, that was fun. Yeah, you like him because he's mean to me. Yes I do. Yeah. Anyway. I wonder whether we come back on the show. Jack, should we get some Steingarten back on the show? Yeah, man, love Stein Garden. Yeah, all right. So, anyway, so he said to me, he says, you are an idiot. Uh, like everyone else, you add pepper at the beginning of cooking, whereas it's known via
+
+[34:56] studies that, uh, that, you know, basically the, the awesome aroma of pepper volatilizes, you know, within minutes after adding it and all you're left with is the bitter taste,
+
+[35:06] to which I replied, but Jeffrey, I like that bitter taste. You know what I mean? And so we got an argument, but what it leads to is this idea that you can have, just like hops, where you can add kind of a bittering hop and then an aroma hop, right?
+
+[35:19] You can add pepper at the beginning of a cook for its bitterness, and then at the end for aroma. So with your oil, and I do that actually with, um, when I'm doing uh, hop infusions, um, hop infusions into alcohol, I'll do some
+
+[35:32] heated and some cold, right? You might also experiment with pepper with oil, by the way, using an EC to try and get a higher pressure to pressurize the stuff into the pepper. But the point being is that you're going to get different results because pepper oil is extremely volatile. Here's another little wrinkle. I read a paper or tried to read a paper. I didn't really have time called thermal properties of black pepper and it's volatile oil.
+
+[35:51] Bye, type is too small here. Uh, Merladar, Megwal, uh, and TK, uh, Gaswami 2011. And I was hoping for some like hard and fast numbers, which they didn't give it, but
+
+[36:03] suffice it to say, the one number that did stick out in my head was that the volatile oils are solid below about 38 degrees Celsius. And in the introduction, they mentioned that the grinding, even kind of normal
+
+[36:17] grinding can heat pepper up substantially and change the composition of its volatile oils by volatilizing some of them.
+
+[36:22] So, and they say cryo grinding is one way you might get around it. So another interesting thing you might do to try to get an infusion of flavors that you would get in a whole peppercorn, but doing it more completely in a ground fashion would be to
+
+[36:34] cryogrind your pepper, keeping it below about 40 degrees, -40 degrees Celsius. -40 degrees, your average fridge does about -20. So we're talking about like storing it in dry ice for a while and grinding it or using LN to grind it, but that might give you a different result, which would be a whole interesting kind of thing. So some things you might want to think about is this kind of, um, you know, pre-pepper, post pepper, similar to kind of dry
+
+[36:54] hopping to try to get the, uh, the bitterness out of one and the aroma out of another. Another thing you might want to look at is maybe doing like a super chilled, like a cryo grind to see whether that gives you something different versus the normal just playing with temperatures and times. But hopefully this is some food for thought. yeah? Yeah? Yeah. Stats is like, yeah, okay, move on. Um, all right. Now, we have a question in from Brooke in Tribeca, and Brooke writes
+
+[37:19] it the official style with the capital T, the capital B, and the capital C. Do you ever do that? No, no. No? No? I guess if I lived there, maybe I would. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? What are your feelings on Tribeca? I really like it, do you? Uh, I mean, back in the day, Tribeca was like, you know, it was the shizzy, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, the artists, they couldn't afford to live in Soho. So they moved down to Tribeca. Now it's like super fancy. My wife used to live in. that where isn't that where the... and Beyonce. And that's the only reason you like that event, right? is you can look at on Beyonce's apartment and hopefully she came out once, right? And you were like, oh, Beyonce. Right? Who my brother calls Beyonce or used to. Anyways, love the show, new listener. Quick question about making fresh cheeses specifically ricotta. What are your thoughts on ricotta styles? Like it. Yeah? All right, fine. No problems here. Is there any advantage to using a circulator to make something like ricotta versus a
+
+[38:15] quick stovetop method? I recently used a ricotta recipe that call for cooking the entire milk cream acid mixture in a bag for one hour at 172 degrees
+
+[38:23] Fahrenheit? That's pretty damn specific. What's that in Celsius? Can you look it up for me, stars? That sounds like the kind of thing that someone came up with a Celsius recipe and then just hit convert. What is it? 172. It's I bet it's pretty close to an even 5 degrees somewhere in Celsius. Let's see what it is. We have 4 people. Stas's fingers are fast like lightning, but you know, the Google in here is not necessarily so fast. Um, well, she's finding that. I'll continue the question. But traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the
+
+[38:55] kurtle. Uh, well, you know what, the thing you didn't tell me, Brooke, is like, what would the result? 7 degrees? What? 77 something? Nah, that's not a good one. So no, that is a real number. 77 No one would. 77.77. Yeah, okay. But who would choose 77.77777. You said 172, right? Yeah, damn. All right. So they must have meant that. But you didn't tell me what the what the results were. So I don't know whether or not you enjoyed that 172. Anyway, whatever. Moving on. But traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the kurtle. While we're on the topic, what's better? Whole milk or milk with some heavy cream. And is there any difference in texture between lemon juice, distill vinegar, and white wine vinegar, or is that just a taste preference? Many thanks, and congrats on the nomination. Best Brooke from Tribeca. Yeah, the nomination for the beard. And 11 an IACP. Jane Griggson award. Yeah. Hey, yeah. Should I get another bottle of per second? No, I think we're all right. But yeah, I didn't even know I was up for award. And... You didn't even go. You weren't even invited to the event. I was not even, yeah, it's not that I didn't ghost us. I know. Not invited. Not invited. You know why? It's the equivalent of like the carnation thing. Like I wasn't up for any of the things that had been nominated, right? But, but like the judges have like special judge awards. They were like, meh. Maybe they should have won something. give it to them. You know what I mean? Let's not invite him Let's not invite him, though. We won't invite him. Last month, you weren't even nominated. Now you're a winner. I know, now, but that's what I'm saying. I've won. I've won something. So now my, you know, my losing streak is over. That means I have no more, my hair has been cut. like Samson. Because it wasn't a category. But no, actually. Excuse me, though. Were you up against anyone? It's an award. Come on. Not only is it an award. Not only is an award, but like, it's pretty badass. Jane Gregson was the, she's a, was a well-known, I believe she's British writer. She died, I think, in the 90s or something like this, and, you know, I guess her most famous book here in the States was charcuterie. And anyway, she is a fanta- was a fantastic writer, right? And so this, um, And very influential, in fact, and this, uh, this award, Jane Grixson Award, is for, you know, heavily kind of researched and thought out
+
+[41:08] in, like, deep, deep dives, basically. And I love deep dives. And I, you know, I love her writing, you know, and have for decades. So, you know, super duke honor to get the Jane Gregson Award, right? Yeah? Yeah? Anyway. So Stas just wants to do anything to make me feel like it wasn't a, it's a great award from the International Association of Coordinary Professionals. You get a thing on your book? Do I get a thing on my book? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. you know, I don't know. Not at liberty to say whether I get a sticker on my book or not. You know why they put stickers on books? So they sell more. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I don't know whether they work in Amazon. Like it used to be, you would go to a, you would go to a bookstore and you'd see it.
+
+[41:52] and you'd see a sticker and you'd be like, do I want to know what this idiot has to
+
+[41:56] say? or this idiot? Well, some other idiot gave this idiot an award, so they must know what's up. I feel like when the stickers were on the books of like the books in elementary school, it's the ones you wanted to
+
+[42:06] avoid because they were the long, laborious. The tough reads, yeah. What, like Caldicotts and those kind of awards? Yeah, you'd be like, oof. I'll tell you what, though, for a children's book author, especially, like, unless you win some of those big awards, I think it's hard to do numbers, because there's just so many kids books out there that, you know, you need some sort of, because parents, when they're buying kids books,
+
+[42:27] right, there's a big, well, am I buying something that's going to be good for my child's brain? I'll get the one with the with the free game award, you know, on. I think the same goes for cookbooks. You know, the cookbook has the sticker on it. Yeah, for sure. You know, the assumption is that there's some useful information in there that's going to help, because, you know, cooking a recipe out of a book is kind of a, it's kind of a, for people who don't cook necessarily every day is kind of a big whoop, you know what I mean?
+
+[42:51] Like they go through the big rigmarole of getting the ingredients and all this other stuff. It's kind of a big. you remember back when you used to be like that? I remember that. You know, my 1st cookbook that I cooked out of that I owned that was given to me? Uh, man, the title of it. The Julia Childs, not her 1st one, but the, what's it called? The Way to Cook. Yeah, I used to made so many recipes out of that damn thing. In fact, I still make some of those recipes out of that thing. Anyways, what were you talking about, though? Ricotta cheese. How the hell did we get on this guy? How the hell does this happen? So I'm not, oh, she, thank, it was a congratulations on the award. That's fine. Okay. on the nomination. So I have not made a boat ton of acid, curdled
+
+[43:32] cheese, be it, you know, ricotta or paneer or, you know, like a fresco or things like this, but I'm going to
+
+[43:39] go go ahead and say that, um, You know, Kenji, at Sirius E, a long time ago, did a bunch of tests on ricotta. And for him, he didn't see a kind of a huge difference in, uh, the, in the texture of the ricotta based on the temperature to which it's heated.
+
+[43:58] So he didn't see, uh, he didn't see it as being a big deal. And in fact, to prevent scorching, he even nuked, you know,
+
+[44:05] nuke the stuff and just made sure that it was in the temperature regime that he wanted before he
+
+[44:09] added the acid to it. I'm interested in the one that you have where the acid is pre-added and then raised to curdle it to see what that is. But my feeling is, is that while it's true, perhaps, that he didn't get that much of a difference in texture with a different temperatures, it's a known fact
+
+[44:26] that the rate of curdling is going to be different at different temperatures and also holding occurred at an elevated temperature in a liquid for a length of time will continue to exclude water from it, making
+
+[44:38] a kind of denser, harder curve. So my guess is that over very short periods of time, the temperature might not be that big of a deal, but that over longer periods of time, the temperature will become more and more of a big
+
+[44:53] deal. The other thing that's interesting. I'd like to find, if you could send me, uh, you know, or tweet me out like a link to the recipe that you followed, uh, in the circulator, uh, for it. One of the things that is really clear with any sort of gelling mechanism is that the final texture of the gel is very dependent on the conditions present at the time of
+
+[45:16] gelling. So, um, for instance, with alginets, if you use a soft calcium, right? Not only does it take longer to set, but the gel will be less firm because the actual agglomeration of the alginate to
+
+[45:32] itself, the binding of the alginate to itself. Not only is it slower, but it produces a different texture. But it also aging, it can increase the texture, but it's never, you know, it increase, make it harder, but it's never going
+
+[45:45] to be the same in a slow set situation versus a fast set.
+
+[45:49] So the amount of acid you add, the speed at which it curdles, and the
+
+[45:53] temperature which it curdles, it seems to me, are variables that you could probably dork with and get, um, get different results.
+
+[46:00] The same goes true for acid, the acid that you use. And again, I haven't done extensive testing, but, you know, according to, you know, what I've read. Uh, you know, lemon juice is going to taste like lemons. Buttermilk takes substantially more, so it's probably going to affect the texture and it's also going to affect the, um, It's going to affect the texture. It's also going to effect the flavor at those kinds of levels. But remember also is that different things with different assets, depending on the rate at which you add
+
+[46:28] them, are going to affect the rate of curdling as well. So the rate at which you add it is probably also going to have an effect, similarly, the draining time is going to, they
+
+[46:37] all, basically, they all have effects. In terms of whole milk versus whole milk and cream, obviously the more cream you have, the more fat you're going to have. So the more creamier it's going to taste, right? Um, The other things you might futz with is, uh, you might want to add some extra calcium to the mix and the form of like calcium
+
+[46:53] chloride if you want a harder carb. I dont know what you're trying to achieve. So please send me a link to the recipe that you did, because I'd love to actually try it out, because I'm going to do a bunch of side by side, especially because you know now that I have a
+
+[47:03] tandor that I'm going to go paneer crazy. Do you like paneer? You do? Really? Well, what the hell? Stas and I are going to be doing a pioneer for days. And that is the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[47:26] store by searching heritage radio network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit to donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:06] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Oh, yeah, it's middle, middle of the road. You kind of split the difference there. Yeah, what do you think? It's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Although most people like the loud, crazy one. Yeah, but a lot of people said they liked kind of like, you know, like mixing it up. I think middle of the road might be fine. You know, I think generally people like surprises. Oh, you know? Except me. hate surprises. No, it's not true. mean, I don't know. I mean, how was the last time you were truly surprised by something, Jack? That's a great question. I can't think of an answer off the top of my head. When you think about it, we'll get back to it later in the show. Meanwhile, call your questions in two. 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. Got, uh, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez next to me here with her Vegetti. Wow. Oh, God. So, Stas, open up your vagetti here on air. Let's hear it.
+
+[1:08] That's gonna hurt. Wow. This officially the last time I was surprised is right now. So Claire sent us this, bought us this Vegeti, which for those of you that haven't been following the Vegeti Chronicles. You tear that sucker open is a vegetable spiralizer. Now, it looks, like, um, kind of like an hourglass. It's got 2 sets of teeth, 2 sets of
+
+[1:42] veggetti teeth, and different, uh, one's fine and one's course, and it's got a little pusher so that you don't get your fingers sliced off in the
+
+[1:50] veggetti. Now, Stas, why don't you go ahead and shove a cucumber into your virgin. No, I'm going to use a zucchini? Start small. She's now twisting it like a pencil sharpener. Yeah. Yeah. That was sick. Good sound, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we are fully experts. Let me see. That sound experts for you, folks. Yeah, I mean, it tastes like, tastes like, but look, it's good. It doesn't get that. Well, Stas is trying to avoid the middle part, the seeds here. I mean, I could see these being used in a salad. I can see. Guys, it tastes just like spaghetti. It's amazing. It's like you use stotch. It's amazing. The cucumber is kind of cool. Let's try it. try it. All right, one second. Let me see. I bet you the texture. Oh, maybe we should have peeled it 1st there, Stas. Let me see here. All right, all right. Let's see. Ready here? This is this is sampling the cucumber Vegeti. I mean, look. It's not a bad product. All the shit. As it's not, that's not a bad product. As a topping or something? Nice. Yeah? I mean, I wouldn't cook that zucchini because it's going to turn into like a massive mess. Oh, she fries it. Which makes no sense because it's a sponge. salads, that's good. Yeah, for the cucumber bread, it's good, but look at the, it all gets compacted. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's a bunch of stuff compacted into Stas is veggetti here. She better get out. All right, so what? Gross. We don't have a carrot. No, I didn't know. Maybe they have a carrot in the kitchen they can bring to us later in the show and we can spiral. That would be good. Like for topping. Oh, it's traded carrot? Yeah, I mean, look, obviously, like, you know, I got Asian on the
+
+[3:43] mic, so I'm thinking Daikon. Yeah. Oh, color, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Natasha and Jack and everybody. Um, my name's Bradley. I'm from San Francisco and I had a couple questions for you. I found this podcast about 7 weeks ago. Um, and I'm unemployed, so I've listened to 104 episodes in the last 7 weeks. Oh my god, get a job, man. you don't want to listen to that much cooking issues. It's gonna rot your brain. Well, I'm helping a refurb, uh, uh, do a
+
+[4:14] some family handyman projects. So I'm listening to it while working, but, um, I, I, um, my family does this thing called Meat Fest every year for my mom and my uncle's
+
+[4:24] birthday. They were born on the same day and we get a whole ribeye and, you know, you grill it all up. And so my goal this year was to, um, build a dry curing chamber and, um, dry age, uh, a ribeye that I got, um, and I'd seen online that, um, like, I'd go pound salt that they put, they had suggested using a tray
+
+[4:48] of of rock salt, uh, of sea salt down below, um, as like a
+
+[4:54] desiccant, and I was wondering if as long as, um, my humidity and temperature are controlled, if that's helpful,
+
+[5:01] or if that, if that is just a, a kind
+
+[5:04] of, um, a bad way of keeping, uh, humidity, uh, relatively uh, the same throughout the process. Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, Yeah, as far as my understanding of it is, the salt is more
+
+[5:21] for, like you say, stability of the humidity, right? Because it's like the salt is going to, at saturation, is going to want to maintain a specific humidity. I had always read, so the 1st time I ever read this was, you know, decades ago in a now outdated book, what's it
+
+[5:39] called? sausage, the sausage make or something, was by Rytech Kutas, which was made. Oh, it's got the book's got to be from the 80s or something like that. But he was the 1st one I, you know, saw recommending the salt in the curing in the in the aging or curing chamber as a as a humidity modifier. But my memory serves me. He actually has huge amounts of salt and some water there so that, you know, you could evaporate water into it or absorb it as needed,
+
+[6:09] right? So it would only be a desiccant until it turns completely to liquid if you are in an extremely human environment. Otherwise, it could be, you know, used the other way. It just keeps something at the same relative humidity. I forget what it is because it's been a long time, but it's somewhere in the mid 70s, I think. Is that right? Have you looked it up recently? It's like 77% or something like this. Yeah, I saw like 80 to 85 is what I saw. So around there. Yeah, I mean, some people just believe in the mystical power of salt in the aging
+
+[6:38] room period. So David Burke, you know, when he years ago did his steakhouse in
+
+[6:44] Chicago, did an aging room and he literally tiled on the walls, giant blocks of salt, which were pretty impressive, I have to say. And I think he was serving stuff on that, you know, on that Himalayan salt block stuff. Yeah, and it was pretty impressive. I don't know if it made a bit of difference or not because, you know, obviously, you know, there was no side by sides, but, um,
+
+[7:06] it was impressive to look cool. So my setup is I've got a 4.4 cubic foot, Kenmore, um, mini fridge that I've, um, I'm rewiring to, um,
+
+[7:19] include a temperature controller, and, and I'm taking out the thermostat for the fridge and rewiring it to an Arduino, um, along with a fan and a humid fire.
+
+[7:31] But so if I have like that kind of setup and they're all, you
+
+[7:34] know, with, you know, maintaining within normal The salt is like a fun extra but not necessarily something that I need. Well, yeah, except for this. What? So what is the, if you're running the coils in the fridge,
+
+[7:51] right, that will automatically remove enough humidity to keep your humidity low enough, right?
+
+[7:57] Then if you have a humidifier to add back in, then you can achieve any humidity you want without the
+
+[8:02] salt. Right? Uh, I mean, a salt can maybe act as a buffer there, but it's not necessary. The, um, if you weren't running cooling coils that were going to automatically
+
+[8:15] dehumidify the, the, if you didn't have some way of removing humidity and adding humidity, then whether or not salt would be helpful would depend on what the ambient relative humidity of your area is,
+
+[8:29] right? I forgot where you said you were calling from. but it's San Francisco. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, you're pretty, I mean, like, you're just air is pretty nice there, right? Yeah, um, I mean, it's it's pretty pleasant. It's it's a little damp, um, just because of the fog, although, you know, it's been nice recently. I guess it depends on what block you're on, right? Everything's a microclimate in San Francisco. Exactly. Yeah, I moved from the, the, the foggy side of the city to the warm side of the city. Um, and it makes a huge difference of about 5 to 7 degrees depending on the day. That's so crazy to a New Yorker. You know what I mean? That whole concept is so crazy to a New Yorker. Anyway, um, so, so yeah, I would say that, you know, if, in the, in the fridge, you have the, like, uh,
+
+[9:17] it, will it dehumidify the fridge as it's working or is it some, is it totally sealed? Like, is it old style so you can see the coils or is it new style? So you can't see the coil? So I haven't taken it fully apart yet. It's about half taken apart, I'm like in the process of building this, and one of the reasons why I was asking was because, um, you know, if I have to put a pyrex
+
+[9:38] panful of salt at the bottom, that's gonna change the way I configure it. Um, but it, it, it doesn't really have. It's pretty, it's pretty sealed in there. Um, there isn't really. You know, there, there's, there's like, um, there's the, uh, there's the freezer component of the refrigerator that's got like 2 coils, but I was
+
+[9:59] going to try to take that out. Right. Well, except remember though, uh, these units usually have like the single compressor and they're running everything off of the one. So if you take the, you're not going to use the, you're not going to use the chilling of the fridge at all. No, no, I'm going to use the chilling of the fridge, but I was going to try to take the, like one of those like mini freezer components in there. Usually that mini freezer component is actually what provides the chilling for the entire fridge. And
+
+[10:26] it's just, yeah, and it's, I mean, if it's the one I'm thinking about. And then, um, what happens is, is they they concentrate and insulate the freezer area so that it stays frozen and then the rest of it kind of doesn't. And that's why stuff that's up near that freezer box, sometimes freezes over, like things like lettuce and ice. Because remember, they're making these things by the bazillion and they need them to be as cheap as possible. So they only have one refrigeration system in them, not two. And they're always, uh, you know, it's basically just like a, um, like a balancing act to get the temperature, right, um, throughout the box. So, um, you know, the, the, you could shield
+
+[11:07] off, like the coil there a little bit so that it's not really chilling too much, if you don't want to chill too much, but it's condensation onto those coils, and then the melt
+
+[11:17] off, and you got to drain the water out from those coils that's going to dehumidify that chamber for you.
+
+[11:23] Because if anytime you're freezing, anytime you freeze water out of the air onto a
+
+[11:27] coil and then, you know, put it through a saw, thaw cycle and drip out. how a dehumidifier works. You know, I mean, that's literally what they are. And so, um, you know, having that in some,
+
+[11:40] like in contact with the area in the box is going to definitely provide, uh, the dehumidification that you, that, you know,
+
+[11:49] therefore, that you could add the humidity back. Otherwise, um, I mean, otherwise, if, and if you can't use that to hit the numbers that you want, then the salt might be something that's useful for you.
+
+[12:01] Okay. Great. Well, that's really helpful. Um, and then I had another question. You had, um, an episode, I think it was like 96, you, uh, we're talking about a coffee cocktail called a Shake NATO. Um, and um, you, you said you were cold, you were cold brewing the coffee directly into the
+
+[12:23] liquor, and I was wondering if that was, uh, just grain spirits or what, or like, you know, uh, as close to that as you can get, um,
+
+[12:32] yeah. And I was wondering what what liquor you were doing the cold brew in, the extraction in the ISI. Um, it depends kind of on my mood. What I use most often is, uh, a dark rum, the one that I, and of those, the one I use most often
+
+[12:50] is, uh, called Ranzacapa, which, uh, it's called 23. It's not 23 years old. They use like a Solera system. So like, you know, one micro liter in a bottle is probably 23 years old, but
+
+[13:01] it's a good, nice, um, it's a good, nice dark rum. And I like it because it goes, it goes well with the clubs. But, you know, that said, I've done it into totally neutral as well. Depends on what you're shooting for. Like we're shooting for like a cocktail and the coffee flavor is extremely intense. So, you know, 2 ounces of, but I also wanted a little bit of that kind of rum sweetness on the nose. But if you don't want that, you could use, you know, you could use a neutral, a neutral spirit. But we were using regular 40 proof, um, 40 proof liquor. In fact, the recipe for the ISI, the one I always use is the one that's
+
+[13:39] in in the liquid intelligence. And if the book. And if you don't, you know, if you don't, I'm pretty sure you could do a look inside on Amazon and snag the recipe, um, for the, I think it's called
+
+[13:51] Café Zacapa is what I call it in the book. And it's just, but you could substitute any kind of liquor you want. The key there is that a coffee infuses so quickly into the alcohol that you just have to be pretty accurate with your grind, you know,
+
+[14:07] and pretty accurate with your timing. Otherwise, it can just go intensely bitter. Just intensely bitter, you know? And the whole idea of doing it that way is so that you don't need to add like a boat ton of sugar back to it to make
+
+[14:20] it, to make it, um, good. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, um, there's a, uh, race in San Francisco called beta breakers. Um, it's like uh, the most San Francisco San Francisco holidays. Everybody wakes up at, uh, you know, 7 AM and does and pre drinks for the race and then gets in costume and runs this race completely drunk and
+
+[14:42] it's, uh, a complete mess. Um, but I do a, a pre-breakfast. I was thinking about drinking or like making this as the cocktail. Last year we did a Kentucky breakfast. Is it going to be something that, you said being precise, is that going to be something that is too
+
+[14:59] difficult? You think is going to be too difficult to do, um, ala minute for a bunch of people? Um, you know, at at 7 in the morning kind of thing, or is that, is it going to be, um, would that be a good application of that? Yeah, I would make the coffee liquor the night before, let it sit. And then, you know, and it's, it's nope, I've done, well, just as we did that cigar event, how much of that stuff do we bust out? A lot, right? So it's no problem. You can bust out like a lot, lot of it. Um, it's, and it'll hold overnight, no problem. Um, and then just shake it, shake it in the morning. Uh, you know, and then you could do the either the milk, the version with milk or the version without milk, depending on, you know, kind of what you feel
+
+[15:41] like. But already, like, you know, man, running when you're drunk, that's painful. Why do people do that to themselves? Oh no, it's so much fun. So, like, what we do is, so, like, last year, I made strawberry
+
+[15:53] buck reed pancakes with bourbon, uh, whipped cream and had Kentucky breakfasts, and you're only going like 2 miles, and you
+
+[16:00] don't, like, actually run. You more like walk and drink more. It's like, it's like a, it's like a 2 mile. It's like a bar crawl, except there's no bars and you just bring all of your alcohol and everybody's drinking in public, and it's the one day of the year where the nudity ban is, like,
+
+[16:17] is, um, not in effect. So, you know, there's costumes and naked people and people thrown
+
+[16:23] up. And it's, it's, it's the most San Francisco of San Francisco events. This is like Santa Con? This is like this is like our version of Santa Con without frightening the children or maybe with frightening the children, but not frightening. Well, we do Sanacon. So like, you know, we we're on that bandwagon too. This is like our own special thing. Um, but, you know, you, it's, it's, it's just this massive. they shut down the streets and they like have like, you know, um,
+
+[16:47] it's, it's just massive. And I know you hate block parties and being outside, but, um,
+
+[16:52] it's, it's, it's really, you know, if, if you ever wanted, you know, people do all sorts of weird stuff and it's just kind of
+
+[17:01] insane. Um, collective insanity. A quarter of a 1000000 people show up every year to do this. That's a lot. That's quite a lot. Anyway, so listen, try that. Try that recipe out and tweet us at cooking issues. Let us know how it worked out and let us know how this your caring chamber worked out. Yeah I will. Thank you for letting me Bogart the show. All right. We got another call. Actually, a few more calls, yeah, so let's take the next one. All right, cool. Call her. on the air. Hey, I just wanted to give you a little bit of encouragement and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. You have to continue the intro with your show in the full New York WWE introductory
+
+[17:41] fashion because that was the 1st time I heard your show. In fact, I think I, I just happened to find your podcast and I, the 1st episode was one that, uh, Nastasia stole Christmas trees. Oh, yeah. But the intro, I'm sitting in my bed listening to the intro, I'm thinking, what in the
+
+[17:57] Sam, hell is this? And then, of course, it turns into a great show with Ranson Rave. So don't let anybody change your introduction because when I started listening to the backlogs, as soon as I told
+
+[18:09] them a backlog, it was like, hello, this is Dave, and this is like your NPR, and it was like, is this the same show? This is not right. There's so much more aggressive ideology here that I want to hear. So don't let anybody change that. Anyway, my question was, how do you uh, clean your um, cast iron, do you use soap is the uh, is the question? Yeah, I use soap. You know, I use regular kind of, you know, the dishwashing stuff like you have on
+
+[18:34] the, on the counter, not the, not the powdery stuff, obviously, but just like regular kind of hand dishwashing soap. I mean, I don't let it soak there forever, but I use, I just use scotch bright and that soap and then wash it, give it a rinse, and then I always, almost always, throw them back on the burner for like 15 seconds on high
+
+[18:56] heat just to heat it up, get all the water off the pan so that it's dry, so it's not like
+
+[19:01] sitting and do it. And I've never had a problem. You know, my, you know, ever. I mean, it's, I think it's the old, the old, uh, cleaners,
+
+[19:10] like alkali-based cleaners, uh, or alkaline cleaners can hose it because it can start breaking down the
+
+[19:16] surface. But that polymerized oil surface isn't, isn't, you know, dawn ain't cutting that grease. Do you know what I'm saying? Totally. Um, and, you know, I think aggressive scrubbing can probably
+
+[19:29] be uh, might be able to cause you a problem, but like the regular, like, uh, you know, I don't use steel wool on it, but I use
+
+[19:38] scotch brights and, you know, choreboys and stuff like that on them. And, um, because otherwise they get all gunked up, you know, and mine stay like pretty, pretty slick. And I've used it on. I have old, uh, polished pans, like an old, I have an old
+
+[19:54] Griswold that's polished and, um, you know, that I've had for, uh, probably, you know, 25
+
+[20:00] years and and it was probably 40 years old when I bought it. And I've never had a problem with that. And, um, And I have a bunch of lodge stuff that, you know, is newer, the kind of pebbles surface that's not polished.
+
+[20:14] And it's also fine that way. Of course, that, you know, that those newer pans take a lot longer to build up to a complete,
+
+[20:21] like, awesome nonstickness than the old school ones, but my seasoning never comes up.
+
+[20:26] In fact, they're the ones that pans I use most often. So I have, I scrub them all, all the time because I have um, I have like 6 of those uh, like fajita pans and they just like they, they stack so easy. And so I keep them right on a ledge above my burners and spam of am if they're easy to get to. So I use them a lot, but... But anyway... But, yeah, you know, if you're going to be an excitable New Yorker, and frustratedly excited when somebody tells you that they don't like biscuits, there's no way you can go back to the NPR
+
+[20:57] intro because eventually you're going to get all excited. So just stay with the excitement. Alright. Fair enough. What do you think, Jack? Sounds good. I got another call waiting. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for the call. What do you think, Stas? Stas are shaking her heads. Even though this is radio, not TV, she is merely shaking her head up and down, which is classic stars. But thank you for calling in and uh, no, and next time, we'll go back to cooking issues. Call her, you are on the air. Hey, how's it doing, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and the rest of the crew. Hope everyone's well. Yeah, doing well. We're enjoying the nice weather, but Nastasia hates nice weather. Do you know why Nastasia hates nice weather? This is nice weather. What do you mean? It's not raining. gloomy. But oh, you like gloomy. Nastasi hates nice weather because she doesn't like it when people enjoy going outside. I used my Twitter, and I was feeling great, and it was sunny out, and I said something on Twitter. I was like, I'm a change man in the sun, and then somebody tweeted at me and they were like, don't tell Stas that. Yeah. Because she hates when people enjoy the outside, especially hipsters. Anyway, sir, go ahead. Sorry. Oh. I'm also a vote for your enthusiastic opening, but that's a side note. Awesome. My question today is, if you're aware of any other modernist technique that you can make black garlic outside of the long and slow method.
+
+[22:16] Did you write in the black garlic question? Yeah, okay. Just how would you go making guitar
+
+[22:25] like if there's a quicker way of doing it? Because the world is so crazy. This happens so often. Like we have a question someone sent us on black garlic, uh, which is totally separate. So, and, you know, what's unfortunate? We have to get, I don't know if you can get Johnny Hunter on the, um, uh, on the phone, Jack, but he has, I was literally talking to black art. He was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and I was talking to him about black garlic, because they make it, and then he said, yeah, someone makes it in like, in like a couple of days, and I think they just do it by jacking the temperature hire. But I couldn't remember what the protocol was that the guy used.
+
+[23:02] So for those of you that don't know, uh, who were listening to the program. So black garlic is something and like, from all accounts that I can read, it was fairly recent in invention.
+
+[23:14] But the basic principle is you keep whole garlic cloves, whole garlic
+
+[23:22] heads, rather, you know, skins on and everything sealed in a container so that it doesn't, they don't dry out. And you let them go for at like 60 degrees Celsius, like 140 or thereabouts, you know, like within plus or
+
+[23:36] minus uh five, five, six, five, 10 degrees. And you keep it for like a month or a little longer. And people mistakenly call this fermentation stars, but it's not really fermentation because it's not, it's not a, it's not a bacterial or a fungal thing of
+
+[23:52] the crap. It's just, you know, it's it's this stuff's breaking down over time at this elevated temperature. And what you get is this kind of like awesome sweet black garlic that is awesome, but it's expensive. So a lot of people make it themselves. But, and, you know, the only way I've ever done it is in my Excalibur food dehydrator, but people do it in their rice cooker, for instance.
+
+[24:16] And in the rice cooker, rice cookers are a bit hotter. They're at 165 degrees Fahrenheit. And I've heard people say that 2 weeks in a rice cooker might be enough, you know, on the
+
+[24:25] keep warm function. But I forget what Johnny said. I don't know if we can get him or not, but if not, I can tweet him and have him tell me
+
+[24:34] what the other guys were using in Madison. They're upset today, by the way, losing Madison, the badgers. They lost. Oh, yeah. Yikes. Anyway, oh, badgers. Turns out it wasn't bad. Mushroom, mushroom. Anyway, was that actually done by someone in University of Madison? Anyway, I digress. The point is, is that, yes, there is a way to speed it up. I don't know the protocols, but it doesn't taste quite the same. It still tastes good, but it's not the same because anytime you're working with these reactions that take place over a long period of time that are very complex, whether they be mired or any other kind of reaction like
+
+[25:05] this, the flavor you get depends on every factor involved, including the rate at which it happens.
+
+[25:11] And so, um, speeding it up, you might get something that looks the same, but it probably, and according to
+
+[25:18] Johnny doesn't taste the same. doesn't taste bad, and it's not necessarily a question of better or worse. It's just it's going to be different. Does that make sense? Fair enough. Yeah. But if I can get him on the phone, I'll figure out what it is to speed up, because he said that these guys were getting it in like in a couple of days. Like, I think it was under a week, which would be awesome. I mean, it's not like a 10 minute thing. But, and you know what? I'm wondering, like, what else, like, what else have people experimented with? I know the Nordic food guys lab, the Nordic food lab folks, did onions and shallots the same way, and they said that those were good. You know, the thing is, is that alliums are so complicated that,
+
+[25:57] you know, a lot of interesting stuff goes on, but I have like a rice cooker that'll
+
+[26:01] stay, keep warm for like, you know, weeks and weeks. I should just keep random stuff in there and see what happens to it. I kept, I've only kept rice warm for 3 days. I was hoping I would get some sort of miracle rice after like 3 days of keep warm, but it
+
+[26:16] didn't, but maybe I should have left it for like 2 weeks. Like maybe I'll just like divide up my rice cooker. Like have some rice there, some onions, some garlic, and some other random stuff and just keep it
+
+[26:28] on, keep warm for like a month and see and like kind of note the changes that happen to a bunch of different food stuffs, you know what I mean?
+
+[26:34] Yeah, totally Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Anyway, I'll either tweet it on cooking issues or if Johnny gets back before the end of the show, I'll have
+
+[26:44] him figure, you know, tell us the fast way to do it, all right? Excellent. sounds good. Thanks a lot, man. All right, thanks for calling. Oh, okay, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? doing all right. God, I have to say I like the loud intro a lot more. Nice. Nice. So we know that our core folks, the folks that are willing to call in. They like the loud. That's who matters. Yeah, gotta play to the court, maybe. I got 2 totally unrelated questions for you, so start with the 1st one. I run a pop-up bar and I do a lot of home infusions and things like that.
+
+[27:19] And I've tried filtering with coffee filters, which are terrible, and Buchner funnels, which are a pain to use, and water filters, which I'm worried strip
+
+[27:28] flavors out do activated charcoal. They do. But I read all of Liquid Intelligence and read all of cooking issues
+
+[27:33] blog, and I'm interested in your clarification techniques, but I don't have a centrifuge. So I'm wondering if Aguar clarification works on infusions or just blended things like your strawberry
+
+[27:45] gin for the 1st question. Right. So, I have Agar clarified liquor, but I'm not super jazzed about it, to be honest, because it strips, it just strips a lot of flavor and, um,
+
+[28:04] and you end up having to add some, uh, water because you got to hydrate the agar in water and, um, because you, obviously, the temperatures, uh, you can't reach the hydration temperature of Agar in
+
+[28:18] straight boost. And so I've done it, but I just don't like it. You know what I mean? It's like Agar clarifying juices? Yeah. But like doing the agar clarified booze, I've never been super, I've never been super happy with it. I tried it once because I did uh, an event in um, in South America once and I couldn't get a centrifusion. I was trying to do, I forget what it was. It was something like it was something like strawberry and gin, but as a whole, you know what I mean? And I just I just wasn't happy with it. Um, I'm not saying that you couldn't find something you're happy with. And it will work, right? But it's just the flavor is not going to be that good. Now, you could, you could, you could maybe treat it as something that's pre-watered a little bit, right? But still, I think you're going to strip a lot of flavor out. So, like, in other words, if you were going to do like a carbonated drink where it didn't matter that it was going to come out more watery, then, sure, you could take an infusion, hydrate the agar in the water, uh, and then like temper it back in, trying to keep the alcohol percentage somewhere around 20, maybe, 20,
+
+[29:28] 30%, uh, well, I would say 20. And then, and then Agar, clarify, your yield might not be that high. Your proof will probably go up a little bit over your base level because the water's going to be preferentially held onto the
+
+[29:39] agar a bit, and it'll clarify, and it might taste good for something carbonated where you need like a lighter flavor
+
+[29:45] anyway. But I don't think it's going to work that well for, let's say, a stir drink. Do you think that, um, if a charcoal and a water filter would strip less flavor than
+
+[29:55] Izar or am I just, should I just plug down for a sensor shoot? Well, I mean, the
+
+[30:04] charcoal does clearly strip flavor. I mean, you know, you can taste it. It strips flavor. Even if you take something that's clear, for instance, so you know you're not removing particulate matter,
+
+[30:16] then and you taste it, you can taste a difference after it's gone through a charcoal filter,
+
+[30:21] like a Brita. In fact, we used to run, we used to run all of our Smirnoff through Britas to get rid of the, you know, any residual hospital nose on it before we were using it to do rotary evaporation back at
+
+[30:33] the back to school. And, uh, but I was too cheap to buy the actual Britta holder. So we used to take a torch and melt the bottom of core containers and then punch the filters through the bottom of core containers. That's how cheap we are. Someone was, someone was like, you guys have such great facilities. And literally, like, we're sitting there like melting the bottom of a cork container with a torch and punching a britter through because we're too cheap to buy the pitcher for it. But whatever. Um, I mean, look, centrifuges are great. And I think with within a year, I will say within a year, there will probably be centrifuge, there will probably be a centrifuge that normal people can afford to have around within about a year, I would say.
+
+[31:19] I mean, I'm not going to guarantee it, but I would say that, I mean, I would bet on it. If there's not, I'm in big trouble. Let me put it that way. So, you know, if you can hold out a bit longer, you know, maybe, maybe you should hold out a bit longer for the, for the centerfuge. Cool. All right, and I have another question about learning entirely different. One of your favorite subjects, country ham. Ah love it. So, uh, I was wondering, uh, if I want to serve it like a European dry cured ham, is it better to get one of the ones that have been aged for a year or
+
+[31:52] more or one of the ones that have been gone for like 4 to 6 months, okay? No, no, no, here's the problem. The 4 to 6 month ones are, some of them are like, they're not that they're low, low quality, right? But the way that they, they, the people who are good at it anyway, at doing faster hams. They, they basically, um, they put it through faster cycles of, of, uh, of kind of, uh, of, like it would go through
+
+[32:23] naturally, and then they, they keep it at exactly the humidity they need to, to get the, the thing as dry as
+
+[32:29] possible as fast as possible, right? So on 1st inspection, these hams can look like
+
+[32:35] a like a 12 month old ham, right? Right. Now, someone that's doing it. So, okay, let's just Back up a second. So if you were to take someone, let's say, like a Newsoms or an Edwards
+
+[32:49] or, uh, you know, Finchville or any one of these kind of like style bent and caliber of hams, like completely traditional style hams, right? And you were to open one of those guys up at seven, seven, 6 or 7 months, right? So this ham would be okay then for, like, traditional American cooking, but the inside of the kind of, like, cushion area of the meat, the meaty part, is going to be really tacky. You know what I mean? And it's going to be impossible to slice without gumming. Forget the fact that the flavor won't be fully developed yet. But in terms of slice ability, it's going to be pretty tacky in there. Um, So one of the hams that's been meant to be released after, you know, a fairly shorter amount of time might seem like it's lost all that
+
+[33:35] tack in there. However, I've noticed on slicing them, when you slice them and then let them sit, they can get kind of gummy tacky. They not going to have the same texture. And also, there's no, there's no way that you're going to get the same kind of, um,
+
+[33:50] flavor, uh, in a quick, in a quick, uh, thing as you will in a, in a, in a slow one because you'll have the drying, but you won't have the flavor development from protein breakdown and whatever else happens, you know, lip, you know, lip oxidation, whatever in the heck else happens in the ham as it's
+
+[34:08] aging. That stuff just takes time. And they're not accelerating the aging. They're just really accelerating the dehydration of it. You know what I'm saying? Uh, and so, you know, what, you know, what a country ham, uh, you know, really wants is to go through, you know, um, you know, a full, you know, a full cycle of at least a year, sometimes, you know, better, 2 summers,
+
+[34:32] like the, you know, at the, in the middle of that 2nd summer, man, when they're like 18 months, that's like sweet.
+
+[34:37] That a sweet spot. You know what I mean? Question, if I have one that's that old and that naturally dried out, does it need to be refrigerated once it's been cut? No. I mean, some people do. It depends on how you how you store it. I used, like I say, I used to store mine out in my, uh, you know, hanging. The problem is, is that you can get certain insects can attack it and you can get mites that hit the, you know, that
+
+[35:02] create a powdery residue around. That's why some of the old timers that used to spread lard on the on the cut surfaces. But, you know, the other thing is that sometimes, you know, when you bone it, there's like the, you know, you create a cavity there and like
+
+[35:16] molds can grow in there. Um, you know, of course, you can always trim away mold, mold, that mold on the outside. as long as you trim it away, you know, isn't going to kill you. You know, you just got to, you know, I say, you know, trim it away. The thing about storing it in the fridge is that you can store it in the fridge for even a relatively long period of time, but like I tend to some, like get like weird kind of like sticky nastiness on where the paper,
+
+[35:45] let's say you were to wrap it in wax paper and put it in your fridge. I'd get like some sort of weirdness on the surface of the meat right by the wax paper and sometimes you could pick up odors from your fridge and vice versa. Like, for instance, in the country ham fridge at some, you know, sambar. Like, they put the, for some reason, they put the milk for the coffee in the country ham
+
+[36:04] fridge, and that milk is like unusable. I don't know how those suckers are using it for coffee. They must love ham coffee. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, the other thing is I don't have that much space in my fridge anyway, so. Yeah so I wouldn't sweat it. I mean, like, you know, just, uh, you know, I wouldn't have it necessarily resting against anything, uh, because you can get
+
+[36:22] some like weird mole weird context. I mean, I keep the bugs away from it. Um, you know, and if you get if you happen to get mites, again, none of that stuff's going to kill you. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, just trim away anything you don't like and you're good to go. I mean, this stuff is, you know, this stuff survival food, man. Yeah, of course. And on final question. I know that Edwards uses, um, heritage breed pigs like Berkshire and whatnot. Are there any other producers using those kind of pigs? Um, I think, I think uh, Newsoms might have bought some stuff from uh, Patrick, and there's a, there's a, I just went out of my head, but there's a, there's a company that produces some really expensive and very delicious hams that are all kind of mast fed.
+
+[37:03] I saw them at star chefs, so you can look up the people who are, but the name of the company just went right out of my head as I went to go think about it.
+
+[37:12] But I think it's more and more going to happen because, I mean, that's really where that's really where the future of American kind of country ham excellence lies is in the feed and the
+
+[37:24] meat itself. Like, I've always said, the curing is there. It's just the, you know, they hadn't forgotten how to do that right. You know what I mean? It's just the quality of the meat that needed to be kind of brought up. I think we're getting there. Can I chime in here? Yeah. I'm Sam Edwards, and I listen to Heritage Radio Network. Oh nice. I just really wanted an excuse to do that. Nice. All right, nice. Sam Edwards actually one of the original sponsors of the radio network. Huge supporter. He has sponsored the show from time to time, but, you know, anyway, good man. Did that answer your question? Hello? All right, nice. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Thanks a lot. All right, cool. Thank you. Okay. So we're about to get kicked off, but let me just go through what? We're not going to get take a break. Jack's gonna fake insert a break, right, Jack? Actually, you know, I have another minute for another caller. I just the lines are off the hook today. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey, is that me? Yeah. Oh, hey, Dave, on the intro note. with whatever makes you happy. See, there's the 1st person that cared about, like, what we wanted. Stas doesn't care. Stas just made. is making her head at her migraine head. All right, I'll go with what's happy. Nice. Do you have a... Yep. But I do have a quick question for you. I made your tea time for Easter brunch. It was a great hit. Everybody loved it. Awesome drink, but there was so much good foaminess left in the bottom of the shaker. Is there a trick to getting that out? Oh, that's a good question. Well, so you got to know your, like, I don't know your shake technique, right? So when you shake, usually you shake and then uh, kind of like let it drain and then I'll do a, a snap, like, you know, I'll, like, uh, because I'm holding the, the, the shaker kind of pointed down with my, um, with my
+
+[39:20] pointer holding the, um, holding the strainer onto the thing, right? And then I'll give it a it a snap down and that'll get some last little, little bit, little bit out. Um, and plus I always reshape. Train it out? Sorry, I couldn't hear you. What did you say? Was that are you using a hawthorn to strain? Yeah. So here's the thing with a strainer, right? So the bad hawthorns. When I say bad, I mean the cheap, like the normal kind of hawthorns that you use, you have to
+
+[39:53] be really be careful. Otherwise, you get like too many of different larger and weird size ice crystals coming out.
+
+[40:01] I like a couple of ice crystals in a drink because like I like that little crunch. The problem is is that it's hard to control with those kind of older hawthorn strainers. That's why most of the, you know, a lot of the cocktail people for a long time who were anti-crystal because there's a huge anti-crystal on the top of the drink movement for years in the cocktail world.
+
+[40:20] And that's why those folks, you'd always see them straining through a
+
+[40:24] T strainer, right? So they would have a hawthorn, which why would you use a hawthorn if you were going to go through a tea strainer, right? Don't ask me because I don't know. Um, except for the fact that they rest more conveniently. They're easier to hold than a jewel strainer, I think, in a tin. Uh, and then they would strain through a, um, um, a tea strainer. Now, the problem with a T strainer. It's fine for a daiquiri. Um, but for a milk wash product, which tea time is milk washers, milk washing for those of you that, you know, I don't know,
+
+[40:51] go, go look it up in the, in the liquid intelligence, or it's been on the show before, I think, milk washing, there's a specific foam from the whey proteins
+
+[40:58] and milk washing, and that is destroyed by a tea
+
+[41:01] strainer. So, uh, so I never use a T strainer on that. And so that's why I use exclusively the cocktail
+
+[41:09] kingdom's like fine the fine wired hawthorn because it's like the best balance. It doesn't let through an inordinate amount of crystals. You don't have to worry about, you know, clamping the gate of your hawthorn down so hard to the shaker that, you know,
+
+[41:25] you're, you know, you're having like white knuckles by the end of the evening and, um, you know, and it doesn't hurt the foams. That's what I use for it. Yeah, that's what I used as well. And I guess it's just the uh, the snapping technique because after, after 2 or 3 of those on a Sunday afternoon. My technique kind of goes sideways. Well, they go down easy, right? But the, yeah, just give it a snap and that's going to get that other stuff out. I have had, um, bartenders who are used to the kind of older style, like, uh, you know, fat wire hawthorns. We call them or coarse hawthorns, I'll call them. Um, say that they, that, that they're not getting everything out of the shaker and that they're, you know, they kind of upset
+
+[42:03] them. But then if you if you just give it that last snap on the on the way out, I think you're going to get most of that stuff back out of there. All right. Well, thank you very much. That's a great drink for anybody who hasn't had it yet. No, well, thank you. Thank you. Good vote for the tea time. T time styles, we do a lot of events because people like them, right? Yeah you made that for one of our events. It was good. Oh nice. All right, so we're going to get ripped off and we didn't get to any of the written in questions, but I will just describe them. This time in a while, it's been all callers. which I like. like that. But okay, so we got we had a follow-up on the ricotta, which we'll talk about next week. We're back here next week, right? We're not anywhere styles, right? Okay. What? We may, our company wide meeting might run one of this. No, I'm not gonna I'm gonna come here. because it's more important. And we had a question on cooking squirrel from Sam Geiger, which is going to be interesting, because I've never cooked squirrel, but I will talk about what I think. And we had a question on black garlic and what and making a tea out of the black garlic skins and what and what thickens them. And real quick, whatever. We have a Kickstarter. for a new heritage radio website that will make, especially my life really a lot easier. I do all this like horrible HTML coding every day to get these shows up. It's completely unnecessary. All right, Jack, talk about the Kickstarter. Yeah, quick. So the code's expiring on our website. It's going to fall apart. soon. So we have a new website that's going to be built. It's going to be really, really awesome, interactive, modern, mobile friendly. So go to Kickstarter, search for Heritage Radio Network. Every dollar counts. Please, please, please do it for all of us. So many perks. I mean, at the highest levels you can get your own show on Heritage radio. At the lowest levels, I make you some ringtones. What does it cost to get your own show on the heritage radio network? I think a full season is a $5000 donation. That'd be like a 12 episode, you know, season. That's pretty cheap though. They get you doing the production and all this other stuff? Yeah. Your own radio show. So you like any any one of you out here with an axe to grind and $5000 burning a hole in the bottom of your pocket can come over here. It comes with free pizza at lunch. Did I mention this? Yeah we'll do that. Yeah. No travel or accommodations, though. And for a 1000 bucks, you can do one show. One episode. You can have an hour to see wherever you want. Whatever you want. Whatever you want. And they'll push it on the, they'll push it on the what you call there, on the website. You can push it on your, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, okay. That's great. And so, you know, we didn't get to talk about. next week. The Tandor. I've got a lot of tandor stuff. I've been going tandor crazy. Maybe I'll cook with Tandor this weekend too, and we'll, and we'll get back to the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[44:50] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's show was brought to you by molecularecipes.com, the world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques,
+
+[0:06] ingredients, and tools. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Hello and we're back with cooking issues live on the Heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here with this Dasio, Hammer, Lopez, and a new person joining us in the studio, Ben, who's trailing Jack for engineering here on the Heritage Rhea
+
+[0:41] Network. Ben, why don't you tell us a little bit something about yourself here? Just quit my job to work as a radio producer. Yeah, and I heard tell that prior to this, you were a corporate attorney. I was sadly. Yeah, what kind of any particular kind of corporate law, like chopping them up, gluing them back together. Picking up the bankruptcy pieces. Ooh, fun. Fun. Fun. We got Jack over there, and Jack has kindly given us a bottle of Prosecco to celebrate. Congratulations. Yay. Oh, yeah.
+
+[1:15] Yeah, uh, so, uh, last Friday, the James Beard Awards uh, uh, said that Liquid Intelligence was their favorite cocktail book of the year.
+
+[1:27] Nice. Or as I texted Nastasia, because it was her birthday, by the way. So she was off in Branford partying like a rock star, right? True or false. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, while she was parting like a rock star, I sent her a text saying that I had won best hot food cold separator, which is the only thing she uses liquid intelligence
+
+[1:44] for is separating the hot side in the cold. all she cares about. She's like, but is it going to keep... I don't want my lettuce to get wilted. By the way, for those of you that listen to me, like you can tell what Nastasia sounds like because you've heard her and that's my invitation of her. So you can see that my invitations of people bear no relationship to to kind of what's going on. Hey, Jack, are we going to saber this? don't even know if this Prosecco will saber. you want me to open it like a person? I think you can open it like a person maybe. You know, last time we sabered a bottle in the studio, it got all over the equipment and it was bad. Oh, Mimi, I'm a musician and I don't want my equipment ruined. Is that what I'm hearing from you? That was that was the voice I used. By the way, by the way, Jack. I noticed that even though today is sponsored by our
+
+[2:25] buddies, the, you know, molecular recipes, but you didn't play Jackie Molecules. Oh we'll get there. middle of the show. I just don't want to miss it. I want to miss the Jackie molecules. It's been 2 it's been 2 weeks. So what's been going on for these 2 weeks? Well, the 1st week, Heritage, this is, by the way, this is the sound of, this is the sound of Anastasia suddenly getting happy, ready? Uh, you want to pour that out, test? Somebody somewhere just got a real shock in their headphones. Oh, speaking of shock in the headphones, if you want to call in live, calling your questions, 2718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. So anyway, we've been gone these past 2 weeks. The 1st week, Heritage Radio was shut down. I don't really know why, but it was. And last week, I was in Mexico. Mexico, Mexico, for the 1st time ever because does anyone consider the border towns to actually be Mexico? No,
+
+[3:17] right? I mean, no offense to those of you that live in like Juarez and Nogales and
+
+[3:21] Tijuana, like no offense to you, but I mean, it's like, you know, Mexico City is pretty awesome. Styles, you've never been there, right? Even though you're half Mexican, you've never been to Mexico. I have been to Mexico. Where in Mexico? I've been to Cancun and TJ. TJ. I like that TJ. It's like it's a dude, TJ. Anyway, so what were your thoughts on Tijuana? I got to be better than yours. I was like five. It's got to be better than Nogales anyway. remember. Yeah? Anyway. Mexico City, amazing. In fact, the food, obviously, you know how everyone's like the food, the Mexican food here in New York blows, like the average Mexican food? I mean, I'm not talking about cosmet or any other stuff. But the average Mexican food here blows and they're like, oh, it's too much better in California. So much better in Mexico. I mean it makes sense, right? I mean it being Mexican food. Uh, so, you know, I guess I don't really have the time, so I'm going to run out before I get to all the questions to go through, but I did purchase, for those of you that, you know, are in the
+
+[4:15] way back machine on the cooking issues. You know, many, many years ago, I did a post on Nixtamilization, which is the process of taking corn, you know, soaking slash cooking it,
+
+[4:27] park cooking it, and lime water, calcium hydroxide, right? Lime Cal, they call it down there. And then soaking it and then grinding it to make
+
+[4:36] nixtamal, which is the base of masa. I mean, make masa, which is the base of, you know, corn tortillas, right? Right? And for those of you that pay attention, the hardest part about the whole nonsense is grinding the stuff because, oh, by the way, you know, the traditional grinding method
+
+[4:50] stars is, you know, the Matati mano, the big stone, and I bought a crappy one on 116th Street, and it was useless.
+
+[4:55] It was like a child's toy. It was so small. It was ridiculous, absurd. Like, I don't even, so I was gonna buy one there, but they're just so damn heavy, like a real one. Like the guy, this other guy who's going to sell me one, swear to God, it was like 10 bucks. Some of this, like really nice. I was like, where's the the mana? Where's the, you know, the, the actual like rolling pin style wooden thing? I mean, uh, you know, it looks like a rolling pin, but it's made of stone. And he goes, well, here's one, and he gives me like a small, and I was like, I was like, dude, dude, I know that I'm like, you know, white as the driven freak in snow, like super gringo, but for Christ's sakes, you know, that mono is not matched to that, you know,
+
+[5:30] matate, it's not going to work. It was like Stas. It was like a 6 inch mono and like this giant, and like,
+
+[5:36] because like you know that if it had fit, I would have just duct taped to my back and told the airline that it was
+
+[5:41] like a, it was like, I would have told the airline that it was like some sort of growth. I mean, I'm weak. They didn't have the right stuff. The guy didn't have the right stuff. I got to go to the right. I gotta go to the right neighborhood next time. Look, I was, by the way, I spent most of my time in
+
+[5:54] um, the Merced Market, which is like, you know, one of the main, main markets in Mexico City, with these, with this group of uh, women who were making, um, they weren't hand padding the tortillas, so they weren't like full Abuela, but they were like making
+
+[6:07] like, they were pressing out with a fresh masa. The squash blossom, quesadillas there are ridiculous. Like, we were all sitting around, like, a bunch of us were sitting around saying, how much would this cost in New York, right? So you go to the farmer's market, you buy a little plastic thing of the crap of squash blossoms. How much is that thing, Stas? You shot for that kind of crap? Seven? Yeah, right? Okay, so imagine this lady had what amounted to a, like, it was clear, so it wasn't gross, but a, like, large garbage
+
+[6:39] bag full of them, right? And remember, she bought it like 50 feet away because they're at a market, right? Rough chops, she has a giant comal. She just throws a giant, like, giant, like... Well, so here's what she does. She throws a giant giant pile of the stuff on the komal and just starts it going. She has like a spatula and like a thing of like fresh oil because, you know, they also her fryer next to it for doing like gorditas and
+
+[7:00] stuff looks like an upside down sombreros, so it's got a big flat rim and there's like a basin that
+
+[7:05] if imagine a walk with a giant wide brim on it. So, like, uh, like a gardening hat. you know what I mean? But upside down. And so that's what she was like frying. And so she had a thing of fresh oil there. So she just went, hip, hip, and like, like with the spatula, put a little bit of oil on the, uh, on the Florida Calabasa, a little salt, right? And then she and this other lady were like the mystical masters of shredding like Oaxacan string
+
+[7:27] cheese because they literally picked up a block of the cheese and just was like, and it was like these like threads of
+
+[7:33] cheese. So like they cooked it down. She made the, she She also was like super quick and consistent on making these very kind of long, very long, like foot long, uh,
+
+[7:43] like kind of narrow, um, uh, tortillas that she would like put on the
+
+[7:47] command. And then that's it. She would slap the cheese on the thing with the Florida Calabas, put the thing as salt, and that's it. And that's really all it needs. That's, I mean, like, but you're not used to having squash blossoms like this because you need to stretch them. So you stuff them with things or you, you know, you dip them in batter and you fry them like a pancake or, you know,
+
+[8:05] any one of these numbers, who the hell can afford that? What is their taste? Is it a zucchini taste? Like, what is it? So much, you know how I feel about zucchini. I know. But what, yeah, but like, how do you describe? I mean, it's kind of... I don't know, I can't really describe
+
+[8:19] it. Delicious. And 1st of all, it exudes juices, it's juiciness, but it's not watery, and it still maintains some of its crunch. I mean, that's what's so disgusting about zucchini, right? So it's like, you know, I don't know, it almost has like a, it's like a savory, it's not meaty because it's not that kind of chunk, but it feels substantial. considering we ate like 8 bazillion of these things. And plus, like, the cheese that they were putting on, it was like so much nicer than the crap that we get in the Super
+
+[8:43] Mercado, as they call them, at my local fine fair, which is not necessarily a good place to buy this sort of product. But anyway, here in New York, it would have been like, you know, a $20 freaking quesadilla. And that's the thing. You know what? It would be worth it, but no one would pay it because it's not high-end food. Like no one wants to pay that kind of money for something just because no one can afford to have the squash blossoms in it.
+
+[9:04] I hear there's some places here that have very cheap squash blossoms, but... I don't know. Maybe, okay, honestly, maybe each quesadilla had like one. 5 of those containers. So you're looking at like $7.5 worth of squash blossoms in each quesadilla. crazy though. That's the way you want to do it. And I said to the lady, well, through an intermediary, because I don't speak Spanish, I was like, I was like, hey, you know, do you, uh, you know, do you get these all years? It's a spring thing, because it was weird spring. She was like, oh, you're, I was like, oh, you bastards, you bastards. And another thing. Try this in New York. So, like, at a different market at the Mercado San Juan, where they have this, like, they have the place called Los
+
+[9:41] Coyotes. It sells all the weird meats and stuff. I had the, uh, Jack, you're not drinking your
+
+[9:45] prosecco. making me angry. Um, They had the uh, the ant eggs, the Eskimo, and like all the other weird stuff. So I bought some because I went there thinking that they were going to prepare them because I was led to believe that they had them prepared
+
+[10:00] in, you know, tacos and whatever. And no. So I had to buy them raw, but I'm not going to buy it, right? So then they're burning a hole in my refrigerator, like for a day. And as I'm leaving, I'm like, you know what? bet you those ladies will cook it for me. Oh wow. Yeah. So imagine doing that in New York. I walk up, they're like making this stuff. First of all, these for those of you that like, you know, are professionals out there, you would love these people. I walk up to them. They have nothing going. None of the equipment's on. They have none of their mees, nothing, nothing. Like 8 in the morning, right? When they open. So I'm like, how long should I come back? She's like, Kinsey Minutos. like, really? So 15 minutes, we go back and they're screaming. They already have stuff out of the out of the door. They already have people being served. There's a lot to be said for the Mexican street kitchen. Amazing, amazing, man. Anyway. So, uh, so I was like, you know, where is koschinar with my best, you know, kind of gringo accent. Yeah, she freaking cooked them for me. They were good. Look, I talked to Rick Bayless about it on Friday because he was at the Awards award ceremony because his podcast won. And, you know, he was like, look, you know, they're good. They're a little mealy like that. Like, if they've previously been frozen, like, next time I go, he says he has the source of like the
+
+[11:06] hyperfresh, like the hyper hyper real, the Verdad. You know what I'm saying? So like next time I go, we'll get it. She also made us like these awesome, because I bought at the market, like a whole boatload of wheat lo cohe, like nice wheat lo
+
+[11:17] cohe, and so she cooked that great, great place. Love Mexico. Oh, reason I brought it up, I bought, um, a nixtomatic grinder. The hard part about making masa is grinding it. And the corona hand grinder, which is the best thing I was able to get sucks. The last time I made, I threw it out. I went to make Masa the other day out of rye, which, by the way, like I say, it's stickier, if you read the post, it's sticky, the, I forget what the post is called on cooking issues, but apparently it's back. You can get it. It's not just... Oh, the forum is now Cielis. Oh okay. Anyway, so if you read it, uh, you know, you'll see that I make, I
+
+[11:52] nixtamalize rye, basically, and make, but rye is a lot stickier than corn is. And so I was trying to grind the rye in the corona. like, you know what? Boop, throw it away. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done with you. I'm done. And so then I bought the Knicks dematic, but I don't have a good supply of corn yet. So I'm getting the good supply of corn and I'll give you some updates on grinding masa with a
+
+[12:10] mixed dumatic and maybe some new stuff, but I will say this. The nixtomatic grinder also makes a ridiculously good nut butter style. If we had had that back in the at the SCI, our lives have been so much easier. Do you remember like all the times putting those nuts through the champion and then spinning them in the Vitapre? This stuff comes out like smooth as silk, like one shot. You know what I want to make that no one's made for me ever? I want to go to the store. I going to buy planters mixed nuts. You guys, planters mix nuts, fan band. You like the players mix nut? Yeah, I like some nuts. Yeah, yeah. But the mix nut is like you grow up, if you grew up eating nuts. If you weren't one of the, if you weren't allergic to it, right? Which when I was a kid, did you know anyone was allergic when you were kid stars and nuts? Nah, it's new. It's like past 15 years or something. When I was a kid, you know, in the 70s. Like every person. The idea that you would... Yeah, well, it's always, you know, but the idea that you would not be able to bring a peanut butter sandwich to school, people
+
+[12:58] be like, what? What? What? You know what I mean? It's like, you know, like, that's not, that's, it would be ridiculous in the 70s. Now it's common because, you know, the rise analogies. Anywho, here's what I want to do. I want to take just a straight up can of mixed nuts, straight up planners, pour it in this thing and make mixed nut butter. wouldn't that be good? Why has no one made the mix up better? Are they salty? Because it's really salty. Are you saying you don't like salty? No, like overly salty. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You eat the mixed nuts, do you not? Yeah. So I'm not, I mean, so you're saying you wouldn't like that level of salt as a nut butter? Jack weigh in. Yeah, I'm torn, but I feel where you're coming from, Stas. It might be a little too salty, but I'm down. I think it'd be a great idea. I love mixed up. It's a very easy thing to freaking test. All I need to do is on the way home, buy a can of mixed nuts and dump it. by the way, it's in the can. Remember the old official can? Yeah. Yeah. and dump it in and see what happens. And then I can report back. But let's say it is salty. I mean, okay, so you want like a cracker with less salt on it? By the way, do you like you like the salt teams with the crack with the salt, right? Otherwise, they're called saltines. kind of like flavor on it, you know, like that salt doesn't taste like real salt. What does it taste like? I don't know. tiny, tiny salt. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you talking about... okay, okay. There's 2 things we're looking at here, right? There's the planners mix nuts, which are the standard old school kind of processing versus the dry roast, which has the dry feeling
+
+[14:18] on the tunnel. We talking about the salt taste of the dry roast? I don't I don't have never had the dry roast. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, of course. I mean, I don't know the difference. I have to look it up. By the way, Secret Star is not a big fan of peanuts. Not peanuts now. She likes pecans. Pecans, almonds, yeah. You're an almond fan? What are you, from California? We're not supposed to be into almonds these days. Why, what's wrong with almonds? take all that water. Oh. Well, what about Marconam? It's from Spain. I mean they don't seem to have a water problem. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's it's, you know, I don't not familiar with their problems. You know what I mean? Like, I need to research their problems. But, uh, so a lot of uh, what's the, what, how many gallons of water does it take to make an almond? I don't know, but I think it's like, it's a lot. It's like a gallon per omen or something. Something insane. Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, is like, let's say you're in almond trees, right? Let's say, let's say you're a 60-year-old Californian almond
+
+[15:15] farmer and you have made the mistake of planning a low fat variety because that's what people like. My feeling about a lot of California almonds. They make some delicious. I, please don't, I don't want to hear about it. But my point is that I like to hire fat almond varieties, right? And it becomes especially apparent once you start grinding them, you can really see kind of, remember when we used to make almond oil and all that? We used to get the, those California almonds and we had to supplement the oil in them because they were such a pain in the butt anyways. But you have all these trees. We can do, let them die. I don't know, maybe. I don't know. Hard problem, right? Yeah, maybe just cut them in half. You know what? You know what? I have a connection through McGee to the
+
+[15:51] end, through labor, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, whose dad's an almond, an almond farmer. to the California nut board. Why don't we figure out what their response to this is? Why don't we figure out what the California, like, you know, not almond nutboard, because it's a big business. Let me see what they say about it. They got to have some sort of wrap on it, right? Yeah, I mean, I don't think any of the water restrictions apply to commercial farmers.
+
+[16:15] Not yet. Um, yeah. So I do have a caller. But I 1st want to make a pitch here. Do you know about our Kickstarter, Dave? I do. Didn't we mention it? We did. We're 14 days to go, though, and it's getting to... Did we win? Did we win? We have not won. We want to be winners. How much do we need to win? So we are $12,000 away from being winners. Out of how much? Out of 35. So we're, you know, about 65% of the way there. We've got 14 days to go. There are really, really awesome perks all the way up to having your own radio show. I mean, that's a really, really awesome perk. Has anyone bought? Yeah, we've had we've had a few, actually. So that's exciting. But check it out. It's on Kickstarter. If you search Heritage Radio Network. You can see the fun little video we made. The website actually will fall apart in the fall, like the coding language. It was built on Ruby on Rails, and all of the updates just are not compatible with our version, and it's falling apart. You know what you should do, Jack? You should you should you can create a web address that's like Kickstarter slash heritage radio. . Anyway, our point is this. If you enjoy having the cooking issues radio show and enjoy Jack being a pleasant part of what we're
+
+[17:33] doing, instead of hating all of you to death, what I would recommend is that you fund this Kickstarter, is that more or less
+
+[17:39] accurate Jack? pretty much it. Yeah, I mean, look. How many people do we need? Like, what's the average donation here? We would have to crunch some numbers. But I mean, yeah, every dollar counts, you know? How much did you know your own radio show? Your own radio show, I believe, is $5000 for your own season. A whole season? Oh my god, dude. It's good. You get for a 1000 bucks, you can record a podcast for 5,000, you get a whole season. Let me tell you something. Any of those any of you people out there with an axe to grind? This is your chance. Can we can we say what we're going to do? What are we going to do? For our listeners. Oh, yeah, for listeners of cooking issues. Stas and I have, okay, so you guys have heard of the vegan face, right, Jack? People have heard of the vegan face and stuff, this vegan face. We haven't talked about it in a while, but she has these facial expressions that you can't see on the radio that are just different ways that Nastasia has to express her distaste for things like vegans or
+
+[18:36] biscuits or spores, fungus. Like certain things like this that she hates. Me, for instance. So, uh, so what we're going to do is also, uh, and one of our favorite phrases, which we haven't used in a while, Jack,
+
+[18:53] is enemy of quality, right? Oh, yeah. So we're going to make enemy of quality t-shirts that have my character. the long sleeve shirt. but we're going to get a caricature of Nastasius vegan face. And my face, it's cooking issues, enemy, enemy of quality, available soon, right soon? I says? Color. You are on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? All right, what's up? Hey, put me down for 5 grand because of the Jetty podcast. Is that for real? Nice. Is that real? Is that real? No. No, okay. Thanks for your call. Bye. I was curious about a given tip for modeling carbonated cocktail. It seems kind of hard to keep high level of the carbonation. Um, it just, in general, if you have any kind of tips for that. Sure. What kind of cocktail do you want? kind of carbonated cocktail would you like to bottle? Um, I was trying to, with your, um, I'm sorry, with the campaign assets? Do not bottle it with the acid. It will get very, very bitter. Okay. Very bitter. Um, because, uh, I don't know why, but, but you can add the acid afterwards, uh, when you're pouring it, but any of the other carbonated ones, uh, if you use like a lime acid or something, I haven't tested other types of acid with
+
+[20:12] it. In other words, I didn't do a side by side of the, um, the, the,
+
+[20:16] the comparison soda very, basically with lime acid versus with the champagne acid that I use in there, which is a
+
+[20:22] tartaric, uh, uh, lactic blend. So I don't know whether it's a particular acid bottled with the campari that makes it go super bitter. Or whether it's any acid in general. And by the way, Aperol will also go bitter, the same way Campari does. However, it's less perceptible because Aperol is less overall bitter. So you might be able to get away with it with that brawl. That's just, that's just a beforehand before we start. Another thing you're going to want to note is that champagne acid. Um, I think it's because, uh, it's not quite as, I don't know why, but it tends to foam more. The things with champagne acid in them, which is, again, a 6% mixture that's half, 6% acid mixture, half of which is lactic, half of which is tartaric,
+
+[21:07] to mimic the same acidity as lime juice, or lemon. I don't know why, but it tends to foam more. So that's just a note of Ben for you when you're doing a bottled cocktail. Now, if you're going to bottle a carbonated cocktail, the 1st thing you need to do is get uh, glass bottles, you need to get uh, caps that seal well. You want to make sure that the insides of those bottles are super clean. So the way to... Oh my god, you've gone Darth Vader on it. So the way to test that is to pour liquid into the bottle, turn it upside down and see whether it cheats. If it sheets out, then you got clean. If you see little dots, then there are things that are stopping it from sheeting, it's
+
+[21:44] not, as the my chemistry teacher used to say, in high school, analytically clean, you're going to want to clean it out. Why? I mean, you don't have to. It's not like a safety thing, but any nucleation sites on the side of that bottle are going to cause a real pain when you're trying
+
+[21:57] to fill it. Now, another thing. Carbonated cocktails, they foam a lot more than sodas do. They foam a lot more than most other things do. So what I would recommend, what Nastasi and I have done, we've had to bottom in the past. You want to get the smallest amount of headspace possible because that's going to also ruin your carbonation because it's going to bleed out, right? So get your bottles cold, very cold, not cold enough to freeze any cocktail when it
+
+[22:25] hits because if anything freezes, that's nucleation sites, right? So you want to like quadruple carbonate your cocktails in your bottles like you do normally unless you have some better system. Then get your bottles cold, and then tilt it on its side, pour the stuff in, let it foam up, and then just keep pouring fresh cocktail in until there's no foam
+
+[22:45] anymore. Do this in a tray, then cap it at the last minute and let them settle, and then when you're done doing a batch, recarbonate the stuff that fell into the
+
+[22:54] tray. That's what we do and we have to do it. Like we had to, who would we do that for? Jimmy Fallon or something for someone else? Didn't Dave take a bottle of carbonated stuff on Jimmy Fallon or something? And we had to do it. And that's how we did it. We just kept on pouring it in, letting it foam out, and then cap it, and then recarb the stuff at the end. Man, it's a pain in the butt, though. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That's what I would do. In fact, that's what I have done. Yeah. Thank you very much All right, thank you. All right. So, I guess that's enough on the Mexico, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. By the way. I have a question and thankfully on the tandor, we haven't talked about the tandor at all, right? No, you talked a little about it. Yeah? For Easter, but had I already cooked with it yet? We've had a show after Easter? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I love the tandor. I loving it. So here's what people keep asking me. They keep asking me, Dave, I hear you love your tandor, but what do you think about the big green egg? And the fact that the matter is, the big green, you're familiar with the big green egg, man? It's like a ceramic grill, like eggs, well, hence big green egg, an egg shaped ceramic grill. The commado grill is the is the kind of generic term for this type of grill. And they're very well loved grills, but the fact of the matter is I don't own one. However, we might rectify that soon. I may or may not have a magazine that you may or may not have heard
+
+[24:13] of, you have heard of it. who's going to have me do a side by side, big green egg versus tandor
+
+[24:19] in a variety of things. wouldn't that be fun? Yeah. You come up to Connecticut and playground. What that stuff does? Yeah, nice, nice, nice. Tandor, amazing. Okay, but I have a question on the Tandora, which is where I get to it. Michael from Toronto writes in. I bought it's a multipart question, as usual. I bought a Palladium Sears all, and I've been using it for a couple of days with a TS 8000. And by the way, I'm not, I'm just going to go ahead and say you should only use a TS 8,000. Am I right stars? The 4000. I was doing a benefit for the edible schoolyards. And one of Tom Klikio's cooks was like, the seers all is not working, so I looked
+
+[24:49] at he used the 4000. I'm like, you're a professional brother. Use the 8000, 8000. If you're a professional, use the freak in 8,000. You know what I mean? Hell, anyways. Uh, I mean, it's like over twice the B to use, like well over twice. whatever. Anyway, I bought a Padiums here, so I've been using it for a couple of days with a TS 8000 from Burns
+
+[25:09] Medic. And I'm wondering about the gas valve on the torch. Do you find that your valve settings are application dependent or do you just run it wide open all the time? And if any of you have ever met me? The answer is, of course, wide open all the time. I mean, all the time. And the reason is, 1st of all, in the 8000, I used to think that the throttling was going to be a good thing. And you can throttle it somewhat. For those of you that don't know, the Burns
+
+[25:34] of Matic TS 8000 is a is like kind of a propane torch. That, um, it's a trigger start. So you're like... You know what I mean? It starts right away. And I use it. I use it pretty much every day, either with the seresol or as a lighter, right? So I use I use it to light my chimney starter, I use it to light wood. I use it to light my burners in the summer when I turn the pilots off. I use it, you know, all the time. Don't turn your piles off. It not supposed to be. Anyway, but whatever, when you do, like, that's what I do. You know, I don't sit there with like wadded up toilet paper or whatever and, you know, napkins and lighting my burners. So TSA 1000 fantastic. But it's got like a little knob on the back of it that can reduce the amount of gas that goes through it.
+
+[26:13] Now here's the problem. TS 8000 and the TS4000 and this entire style of torch that I use on the
+
+[26:19] seers all has a what's called like a vortex tip on it. So if you look at the tip of the torch, there's a piece of brass on the
+
+[26:26] end, and inside that brass are 4 twisted metal fins. And what those things do is they actually swirl and I guess possibly mix, but mainly swirl the gas as it comes out. And it creates a very violent, like, uh, you know, kind of characteristic kind of flame coming out of it that's not kind of not bushy, right? As opposed to, let's say, the itwatani, which has like a long flame, but more bushy, right? Because it doesn't have that kind of vortex tip on it. So the problem is, is when you throttle it down, the vortex doesn't work as well. Man, it's just straight up. It just doesn't have the velocity out of it. And so you're not getting as good a result on the sears all. So what happens is it'll work, but it'll tend to flame out more, not flame out, but if you turn a
+
+[27:09] sears all all the way upside down. Um, you'll start getting... like that kind of a thing and it's irritating. So I just leave it all wide open. And if I need to pull back slightly, I pull back slightly. makes sense to us. Second question. PX. S, do you wear nomex sleeves? Nomex. good use of Nomex. You know Nomex, you have the fire retardant material that 1st I 1st came to my attention when I was a small child because they used to use it in
+
+[27:33] like flight suits to stop people from lighting on fire. But it's like a standard kind of flameproofy kind of a thing. Do you wear nomex sleeves when you're using your tandor? Thanks, Michael from Toronto. I don't. The 1st time I used a tandor, I bought a set. Well, okay, so I was reminded by Nastasia that when we built a tandor for
+
+[27:49] the Anthony Bourdain shoot, we did, like, what is that, 4 years ago or whatever, that I insisted that we all use our bare hands to put
+
+[27:57] the bread in because what am I? What am I? Well, now you're weak. Well, no, so I'm back. back. So then, like the 1st time I fired at the tandor at home to make bread, I was like, I bought a set of those grill gloves, right?
+
+[28:11] which are these like giant grill gloves. and I was like, because I was going to do a lot of stuff in there. And then I got back and this stuff, he says, you're half a man. You're a strong man. You're made of paper. You weak. You're useless, right? basically what you said. Yeah. I mean, that's fair. And I was like, you know what, Stas? Fair. Fair. And so, uh, so last week I went back and made it God's way, which is just sticking your hand in the damn tandor and like smacking
+
+[28:33] the the bread onto the side of there. I'm getting really good at the non, by the way. I have very little very little fall offs. I can't wait to try to do non in the big green egg. You like naan, right? Is that your, is that, yeah, non, good bread, yeah? Yeah. Okay. Wait, so you're getting a big green egg? Well, I'm like, I'm not going to buy a big green egg, but if the big, if some, if a magazine wants to get one for me so that I can do an article on like tandor versus green
+
+[28:59] egg, I can get you one. What? can get you one. Well, the magazine's going to try it. they can't, you want why? You have it in? Well, yeah, I know someone who wants to get rid of theirs, like, why? What do they not like about it? Nobody uses it specifically someone. Who is? Tell me who. Oh man, you're leaving everyone hanging here. Why would they not use it? What are they? Well, 1st of all, let's go through this. They live in New York City? Yeah. Okay. So they have it on the roof? balcony Balcony. It's a low balcony. But they not use it because... Someone moved out and it's still in someone's apartment. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, do they know how much these things are worth? Does the person who's left with it now much is worth? Don't tell them. They're like a 1000 bucks. Yeah. I know. The small one's like a 1000 bucks. doesn't care about money. They get a they get a salary. What the hell, what? Anyway, like, what is it? Do they not like cooking in general? Uh, not with a big green egg. No, but in general, do they like cooking? I not sure. You're not sure. All right, well, listen, yes, we'll take we'll take their big green egg. and raise them a whatever. I don't know, we'll cook them something in it. Hey, Jack, is this a good time for our Jackie molecules commercial break? Oh, maybe, yeah. think it is. Let's do it. Let's do it.
+
+[30:22] Hey, what's up, guys? It me, Jack, as in Jack, from cooking issues, as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So, here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but
+
+[30:37] also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show, but should you need further
+
+[30:46] resource. Should you want to get some of the things he's talking about, molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this
+
+[30:55] modernist thing we love so much on the show. So, you know, explore the world of foams and spheres and invisible foods and mind-blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chef scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips, and tricks. Cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into, all in one place, molecular recipes.com, and just for being a listener of this show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular
+
+[31:25] kits just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out, molecular recipes.com, tons of really awesome stuff there. Definitely write up your alley. And we're back. And we're back. By the way, should you go to the molecular recipes.com if we recommend. Please enter the code. Let me tell you why. You got to let them know that the money that they put into the cooking issues program is doing something for them.
+
+[31:54] Am I right, Jack? That's how it works. So, like, you're like, man, I don't like good stuff, too. I mean, that's the real reason. No, my point is, though, is that you're like, maybe I don't need the discount. end the discount code. I'm not going to bother, right? But if you don't bother entering the discount code. And then they don't know that the reason that you went there is because you heard. Who knows where you came from? Who the hell knows? Who knows? Would you know, Ben? But who doesn't need a discount? Well, apparently the person who has the big green egg that we're going to get a hold of doesn't need a discount. They don't care about money. They don't care about food. They don't care about nothing. They got a balcony in New York and nothing to do with it. Don't want to cook on a big room. Hey, you know what? You know how many people would, like me? I mean, years I've wanted to be able to cook outside in New York. Years, years, and they have a balcony with a big green egg on it. don't want to use it. It's freaking unacceptable. It's not right. I don't care. It just means you're a bad person. It just means you're no good. You know what I mean? We got a good person on the line. All right, Jack, why you tell me who we got on the line? It's Darren from Meld. Darren from Mel. Listen, I haven't, I haven't spoken to you about it yet. You on the line right now? you with us? I am, yes. Nice. So for those of you that don't know, out here on the, on the, you know, whoever's listening to this. Meld is a current Kickstarter. How much longer do you have left on the Kickstarter? I've got about 9 or 10 days to go. And next Friday. Yeah. Wildly overfunded. Don't mean, but you should do it. The reason to do it is because you're going to be correct in line, you're going to be 1st in line if you're a Kickstarter backer, right? That's absolutely right Right. So one of the things, and having done a Kickstarter before, here's, look, here's the secret of Kickstarter,
+
+[33:35] right, is that you have to put the number low enough to, um, low enough
+
+[33:38] so that you think you can make it, right? But then people out there in Kickstarter land, they don't understand that what you really want is to wildly, wildly surpass your number.
+
+[33:48] And you already have on meld, which is great. But the point is, is that it's, as someone who's trying to start manufacturing something, it's vastly easier when you're dealing with larger numbers of
+
+[33:59] units. And so not only is it, uh, it's better for the end, it's better for the end user or the person who's buying a, I know the Kickstarter is not a pre-order, but let's be honest, it's pre-order, right? I mean, let's be honest. am I right? It's pre-order. Let's stop kidding ourselves. But it's vastly better to be dealing with manufacturers with larger numbers of units. You know what I mean? Then with smaller numbers of units. Agree or discipline? Absolutely. Because there's there's a certain fixed cost up front. It doesn't matter whether you end up making one part or you make 10,000 parts, that same fixed cost for the mold is, you know, fixed cost. Right. So let me, let me, let me introduce what the product is, and then we'll talk about something. You tell me if I'm wrong, right? So meld is kind of a 1st of its kind products. So the idea is, is that a lot of us have, well, vast majority of us have ranges, right? you know, like cooking ranges that operate with a knob on the front, right? And so they require you, the human, to adjust
+
+[35:04] the, uh, the knob, to determine what the, the heat level, the gas output most typically is going to be on said range,
+
+[35:11] right? Well, what if you were to put a motorized knob that was hooked up to some intelligent electronics on it and then had something else control it instead, hence melt.
+
+[35:22] Is am I right about this? Is this right? That's absolutely right. Because you're, you know, you read a lot of recipes and they'll say, put a pan on medium, right? And we've done the experiment, you put the exact same pan on medium on a, you know, 5 or 10 randomly selected ranges from you and your
+
+[35:40] friends, and you'll see differences of temperatures of 100, 150 degrees easily. Right. And here's another thing that you probably deal with as well. in my in my building, right? It's, actually, it's the fault of the person that installed installed my range because they didn't put in the regulator that I asked them to install after the
+
+[35:59] gas. So like, so I have fluctuating gas levels in my range. And so the actual flame I get out of any particular burner is dependent
+
+[36:09] upon whether someone else turns on another gas appliance or burner that's in close proximity.
+
+[36:13] I don't know if a lot of people have that problem or that's just because the Joker didn't install the regulator on
+
+[36:17] my stove is proper and I need to go do it. But presumably this would also uh, kind of uh, ease the uh, or uh, level out the vagaries of gas pressure as well. That's correct, yep. So one, so this is kind of like, you can go to the, the, the Kickstarter, and by the way,
+
+[36:34] what's, what's your theoretical delivery time after the end of the Kickstarter? Uh, October. And we, we deliberately sort of held off on the Kickstarter. We thought about doing it sort of late last year, but we waited until we've got, you know, real actual working
+
+[36:53] prototypes, and you can see them in, in some of the, the videos, but that are, you know, except for a few cases where we're still 3D
+
+[37:02] printing a few parts. Uh, these are the final products and we're cooking on them every day so that, you know,
+
+[37:09] we, we are confident we can deliver versus the sort of standard, you know, well, we've never done this
+
+[37:15] before and we think we can deliver and, you know, we'll tell you later if we're going to be late. I'm familiar with that process. Uh, uh, with the sears all. But, um, the, so let me ask you a couple questions that I, that I was wondering, 1st of all, I'm not saying anything. We would love sometime to beta test one. I'm just saying, we would love the beta test one. Um, but, uh, you know, we'll even I mean, I'll buy one. I would love the beta test one, though. Um, the, not that it's past beta, I guess it's too late to beta. But the, um, The thing I'm wondering specifically, how do you deal
+
+[37:47] with uh, things like uh, flame out. So a lot of a lot of burners when they get, you know, on the lower end of their spectrum, they can sometimes go out and not everyone has a burner with a kind of a flame sensor on it to determine kind of what's going
+
+[38:04] on. So how does the system deal with that sort of thing? it notice that there's no more heat input and it throttles it back to light or what happens? Yeah, so it's a, yeah, it's a great question and absolutely something we have to deal with. So what we do is we are, you know, obviously just to make the thing work, we're monitoring the level of
+
+[38:24] gas we think we're putting in and the sort of temperature response in
+
+[38:28] the in the pot at all times. And if we start seeing a scenario where uh, it's flamed out. What's typically going to happen is we're going to say, oh, well, you know, we're not getting the additional heat into the pot at the rate we expect it to
+
+[38:43] for for where the gas knob is. That's a problem. We're going to alert you on your app back on your phone. And then we're also going to just turn the gas completely off. So there are a number of kind of safety scenarios built into it where, you know, we think there's something wrong enough or potentially wrong enough going on that we're going to alert
+
+[39:07] you, and if you don't respond, we're actually just going to turn off the gas. Okay. So, but in other words, is it something that can be tuned to someone? So presumably when you get it, you tune it to your range, yeah? Right. So what you do is you put it on your range, you turn it, the app asks you to turn it to the off position, to the low position, to the high
+
+[39:29] position, so that it knows sort of the bounds of where it can turn. And then, uh, you know, from there, it's basically uh, self learning. So it'll, um, you know, it will adjust the, the gas flow to maintain temperature, whether you put, you know, a great big
+
+[39:48] pot. We've got actually a bunch of people interested in home brewing, which is an application we hadn't even really
+
+[39:54] considered, who've kind of come out of the woodwork and we actually made a video with a home brewer that'll come out in a week or
+
+[40:02] so. So, pretty, pretty interesting, or, you know, sometimes you got a small pot and need a lot less gas for the, for the same temperature level,
+
+[40:09] but that feedback loop will actually make those adjustments. Nice. Now, I had a couple other questions. Let me see what they are. Um, the, 1st of all, before we go any further, what's the, what's your, like, uh, in production MSRP versus, like, what you're
+
+[40:26] going to get on the Kickstarter? Uh, so kicks us, MSRP uh, right now is 149. We did Early Bird Kickstarter at 99. those sold out and we're doing 9 uh 129 now currently. So you're getting like, you're getting like $20 off, which is like something, what is that? That's like, what is that, like 15% off or something, the final? Yeah. Yeah. Now, is there anything prevent you from using it like a normal gas knob if you just want to just walk up and
+
+[40:57] use it? Nope, you can walk up and turn it anytime you want. And that was actually one of the engineering challenges was to get a motor and motor driver circuitry such that we could generate enough torque to turn the
+
+[41:14] knob even on kind of an old, crappy, sticky range. Um, but at the same time, you could still turn the knob and not do, you know,
+
+[41:22] backdrive the motor in a way that was going to damage it. So we went through a lot of different tests on that before we settled on the right sort of combination of motor, gear
+
+[41:33] train and driver to make that happen. Nice. Are you anticipating any aftermarket drop-in circulation devices for
+
+[41:40] pots or I don't remember. I don't think you had one on the Kickstarter, right? Uh, we don't. We've, uh, we've got a number of, I think, really interesting sort
+
+[41:51] of uh, directions to go with this and uh, you know, part of it's, part of how we'll choose kind of which one we do next is, is going to be based on
+
+[42:01] the, the feedback from this Kickstarter. So, um, certainly if that's, if, if that drop ins, uh, uh, circulation is, is something you want, you know, hit us up
+
+[42:12] and, uh, you know, will, will certainly respond to, to what we hear. Right. Have, uh, and so what kind of numbers have you been getting out of, let's say, like, uh, oh, I don't know, like a
+
+[42:24] 4 quart pot with, uh, you know, like 3 liters or something of water, something like this, what kind of stability are
+
+[42:30] you, are you getting in there temperature wise? Uh, basically one degree. Come on, really? Yep, it's cool. That's bananas. One selfie. You know, so it's not, it's not like, you know, you're getting a high-end poly-science
+
+[42:47] . one degree, you know, uh, you know, I love what Phil Preston does. We can't do that on a stovetop, but we can do about 11 degree Celsius. Let me ask this. What about stuff that scorches on the bottom, right? So the measurement of it, is there some sort of, is there some sort of way to measure that specifically worries about products that are going to scorch on the bottom? So there are, yeah, I mean, basically, um, you know, depending on, on, that's mostly a problem in really viscous fluids where you're not getting a lot of, uh, you know, a
+
+[43:23] lot of, uh, circulation just from the, um, you know, from the natural convection that's happening in the
+
+[43:29] pot. Um, in general, we haven't had a, you know, we haven't had a lot of problem with that, um, because we, I
+
+[43:38] think, tend to keep the flame a lot lower, and if you've got a decent quality, say, you know, even, you know,
+
+[43:44] aluminum, uh, pot that's gonna distribute the heat up the, the aluminum sides pretty well. It hasn't been a big issue for us. Um, that being said, you know, if you leave a pot of chili on for 10 hours, you know, and never stir it.
+
+[43:59] Uh, I'm not so sure we could, you know, make make a whole bunch of guarantees there. But then you should die anyway. Yeah. Yeah. You're ruining, you're an enemy of quality, as we said. You can go buy the, you know, if you're not stirring your chili for 10 hours, like, maybe you're sick. Maybe you've fallen and you can't get up, in which case, I forgive you and there's no reason they're saying should have bad shab in your chili. But if you forget that you put chili on for 10 hours, like you're an enemy of quality. Am I right? You're a bad person. I totally agree. Yeah. One last question. So, uh, and because I have to answer another couple questions before we go, but, uh, and 1st of all, super exciting. Like, 1st of it's kind product. Amazing, no one has done it before. I'm extremely excited for it to be on the market. And for those of you that remember, meld, like M-E-L-D, Kickstarter, go check it out. But, uh, so here's the here's the here's the thing. Are you going to put programming into it so that you can essentially turn it into a rice
+
+[44:55] cooker? The rice cooker application, like specifically doing rice, we've done a few
+
+[45:04] tests. I think by the time we release it, we'll have, we'll be, you know, we, we will
+
+[45:11] have, have pretty thoroughly tested that and and, and gotten the programming down. Because how sweet would that be? Everyone with one of these things, all of a sudden they can turn one of their burners into a rice cooker. It's just looking for the, you're just looking for the knee and the temperature rise, right? You put a certain gentle heat into it. You wait for the temperature rise to mean that the water's gone and you're done. Isn't that how rice cookers work or no? Yeah, yeah. So there's, that's, that's actually a specific example of a really interesting general case that we've seen in, in a variety of things we've, we've been cooking in in this, which is that, you know, when you're
+
+[45:49] cooking, uh, something that's, you know, liquid in anywhere at all near the boiling point,
+
+[45:54] the vast majority of the heat that, that you're putting in is being sucked out by water evaporating out the top, right?
+
+[46:02] And so, If you have sort of a low level algorithm, whose only job is to keep you at the same temperature you want to be
+
+[46:13] at. And that low level algorithm at some point starts saying, oh,
+
+[46:19] I can dial back the heat. I can dial back the heat. I can dial back the heat because I don't need that much heat to maintain the temperature anymore. What that's telling you is exactly what you just said. It's saying, hey, we're not getting all that evaporation, sucking all that, the energy out. Something interesting has just happened. And so being able to do recipes, you know, that that detect those kind of effects instead of just like put it on medium heat for 20 minutes,
+
+[46:48] right? That's, that's a game changer in terms of, of how you think about cooking and it's something that we think, you know, given that we can detect these kind of things and and have the feedback loops,
+
+[47:01] uh, that we can do some really interesting stuff. And so you think you'll be able to have those kind of applications almost at launch? Some of some of those applications almost at launch. Some of them, yeah. But listen, I'm super excited and congratulations on already having fun at the Kickstarter. Everyone should go on and order one now to secure your place in line because, you know, it sucks to have to be on the 2nd shipment of that thing that they sell on Amazon, then you're going to be, you know, 6 months in the
+
+[47:28] hole probably before the 2nd shipment comes in. Am I right? Yep, I think I think so. Yeah. But anyway, thanks so much for coming on. It's a super interesting product and I'm excited for it to be out in the world. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having us on and yeah, we're super excited. Always been a big fan of your show and thanks for having us on. Thanks. All right. pains me to do this, Dave. What, I don't have no more time at all? It's time. Zero? Yeah. All right, listen. I'm just going to tell the questions that I didn't get chance to answer, okay? Cool. Okay. So Trudy wrote in and, you know, catching up on our stuff. about hydrocolloids and about the bloodlines in fish. I have plenty of answers, including, well, whatever. We'll have to deal with it next time. I have I have all this stuff. Sam Geiger wrote in about Coldpack Squirrel, but I thought we already talked about Coldpack Squirrel. Jack, did we talk about Colpax squirrel? All right, we'll get back to it. Uh, and uh, lastly, but certainly, no, 22 other things we didn't get to. Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon, wrote in on Douglas
+
+[48:28] Fur, and making tea with Douglas Fur. just say this. If it's a springtime out there, Um, collect some of the fresh, uh, the fresh green, uh, uh, tips, if you can, and then do a side by side with those in the
+
+[48:40] old, older needles, but we'll talk more about Connor Fortin next week. And in fact, I'm going to make some tea with my hemlock because I have some Eastern hemlock, which you can do. And we have some interesting comments and on some higher end vejetties from Brandon Bird and some talking about oil dispensing stuff with Joel Esposito all for next time on cooking issues.
+
+[48:58] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts
+
+[49:10] in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues. Come to you live in the Heritage Radio Network and Reverse Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
+
+[0:43] Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is currently en route from Chicago at the James Beard Awards, but we are joined in studio today with Peter Kim, the
+
+[0:50] W president director. Galactic Emperor, may I told you? Lawyer Emeritus? You are actually the lawyer of Emeritus. I am the lawyer Meredith, yes. Yes, of the Museum of Food and Drinks. Basically, you were looking for a legal counsel to justify all of your nefarious actions. Not on the air, Peter. And Veronica, who's a new intern at the museum and hails originally, I guess, from Brazil, but is currently living
+
+[1:14] in Miami. Yes, sir. Yeah, it feels in here like Miami. It feels in this room like we're in Miami. Bringing some sunshine to New York. Yeah, more of the humidity. And the sulfur stink. That's the other thing people don't realize they've never been to Florida. The entire place smells of sulfurous groundwater. Or is that just me that believes that? Can't blame me for it, though. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't know. Maybe you did dope all of the entire ground with sulfurous minerals.
+
+[1:36] don't know. You know that smell, that Florida water smell when they water the lawns with that Florida water? Yeah. Do they have on that side the giant palmetto bugs? First of all, is everything just built and cleared palmetto like it is over in Sarasota or is it different? Well, I'm actually from North Miami. So I am pretty much in the clear of palmetto bags, thankfully. Oh, nice, yeah. They make our cockroaches look like... I know. Like, you know, like nothing like weaklings. Yeah. Yeah. Although we do have the giant water bugs here in New York that are on the lower floors of our buildings
+
+[2:06] only, and they don't congregate in huge packs. I call them travelers because they just kind of, you see when you kill it. You're not worried about infestation because it came somewhere from the pipes down from the depths where the alligators
+
+[2:15] grow. Also important. Speaking of water bugs, Dave's covered in water. All right, I biked here. And joined in the engineering booth with our old pal, Jack Insley. Hey guys. How you doing? pretty good. Good. So have we have a bunch of stuff to get to, so I'll just get to it. Although please do call your questions too. 718-497-2128. That 718-4972128. Sad news to report. Most of you who are plugged into the food internetosphere, probably already know, but Joshua Zerski died yesterday. They still haven't figured out kind of why he died, but he was found in his hotel room yesterday morning, he was in Chicago actually for
+
+[2:58] the Beard Awards. He's only 47, very sad, you know, very kind of larger than life figure. You know, I've worked with him a couple times over the years on things. So, you know. Yeah, much respect. Yeah, and he actually did a show here for a while back in 2009 and 10. I remember that. Yeah, the Mr. Cutlets show. Yeah, you know, I could tell some, I won't, maybe eventually, I could tell some crazy Josh stories. Like he's crazy, he was like a larger than life, a legit, kind of larger than life individual. Had a couple of, uh, uh, same early champions as I did, like Jeffrey Steingarten. Um, yeah, you know, it's just, uh, crazy. Well, well, it depends on how you define it. I get. He's here. he is like, you know, like his writing was over the top. He was over the top. Anyway, he's definitely going to be missing the food world. So it's a sorry announcement to have to make. So rather than go launching into my normal stuff, why don't you talk, we have a museum benefit coming up in
+
+[3:58] next week, actually. next Wednesday. So we've got the annual MoFad spring benefit dinner coming up and, well, I'm biased, but I think this is really the most exciting dining event in New York City.
+
+[4:10] We get, this is actually a concept that Dave put together. Um, and it's... With Nastasia, the Hammer
+
+[4:18] Lopez, and Patrick Martens, as Dave wipes the moisture off his face. But we get we get 8 of the best chefs in the country to come together and put together a meal, but it's not just any kind of
+
+[4:28] meal. We do museum themes like food of ancient Rome or space food or what else have we done, Dave? We did caveman food. Oh, it was good, Wiley? Yeah, Wiley did caveman food. Well, speaking of James Beard and winners, TV dinner. Yep, yep exactly. TV Dinner by Michael Anthony, who just won the James Beard Award for Outstanding Chef. We did ancient Rome with a whole ostrich by another Mark Wadner, just
+
+[4:50] best chef in New York City. And congrats, Mark. Uh, Tosi did uh, Chef Christina did uh, space food. She's just one for outstanding pastry chef. So we have a lot of big, a lot of big people. Well, this you want to give him a rundown who it is? Yeah, yeah. So this year we've got a great lineup. Don't mission here, I'll kill you. Yeah, yeah. We got Aaron Blue Dorn. from Cafe Balloon. We've got Elizabeth Faulkner. We've got Alex Guornischelli. She's gonna be doing what would Jesus eat, which I think is really one of the more exciting topics. We've got Mads Wrestling, one of them. No, we know what he drinks. You know he turns water into wine when the keg is kicked at the wedding. That we know. And then I can then turn wine into pee. That's my special one. Wow, we just got in trouble with a whole chunk of our listeners there. So there you go. Anyway, and then we have Mads Roughlon, one of the co-founders of Noma, and now he's at the helm of Acme. He doing weeds of New York. We've got Andy Ricker, your friend, my friend, uh, pock pock man, and he's doing rotten, rotten food. And then we've got... Remember, like, we're giving that because, like, I know for he likes doing things like fermented short ribs and stuff like this. So we gave him, and the concept here, I'll let you finish, so you don't forget anyone. Yeah, yeah. Marcus Samuelson, and then we've got... What's his theme again? What's his theme? Oh, yeah, he's doing, so around the turn of the 19th century, the Emperor Menelik, who's one of the most beloved emperors of Ethiopia, held all these giant public banquets for 10,000, over 10,000 people at a time, and so he's doing a meal that is an homage to that.
+
+[6:19] Okay. Then we have Bill Telepan. He's taking on the story of an ancient Sassenite dish called Sick Baj. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, but... It's old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That title is actually stolen from the language of food. which is a book out by Juroski, about the history of certain, like, a linguistic approach to, you know,
+
+[6:42] a linguist reads the menu kind of a thing. Yeah. And then and then we've got Bill Yosef, the former executive pastry chef at the White House, taking on the topic when the White House burned because in 1814, the British troops arrived at the White House, did burn it down, but they found, bizarrely enough, a meal laid out for them that was a meal that
+
+[7:00] the President Madison and Dolly Madison. The 1st lady had abandoned in their haste to leave. Of course, they saved the portrait of George Washington. And they say Americans aren't polite. We left dinner today. Exactly, exactly. So they ate it, they drank it, then they burned the house down. See, it's the Brits. the Brits who caused the problems. Exactly. I'll be in Britain, actually. Next week as well, right after they benefit. I fly out to London. I'm doing cocktail demos at center townhouse. Cheers. Again, now you got in trouble with the other half of it. Oh, yes, there we go. My goal is to alienate pretty much everybody, except you. And then, so anyway, so tickets, we just got a handful of tickets left. And, oh, yeah, booze by none other than some smuck
+
+[7:38] named Dave Arnold. Also maybe a James Beard Award winner. They will be James Beard Award winning author's cocktails. That's the most precise way to put it. Yeah, Prono cards giving us a liquor for that. We got Prono Ricard for liquor. We're going to have Jeffrey Porter, the wine director at Del Posto, is getting an incredible lineup of wine. We got sparkling wine, champagne. We've got, and then... Yeah, yeah, Nastasi will be there in the corner with a bottle of champagne. And then we'll have a selection of 6 wines available during the dinner. This is going to be essentially a pretty blowout affair at Carnegie Hall, top 2 floors, rooftop
+
+[8:16] terrace looking over the city. That's expensive. Yes, it is, it is expensive, but of course, it's to support the development of the Museum of Food and Drink, which is itself a worthy cause, but the 1st time we did this, we were incredibly stupid. We charged $250 and how much would you have to pay for that meal if you want to go get it? I mean, there's no price you could pay for it. So now we're charging something that's like, you know, we're charging museum style, like benefit prices now because we're older and wiser. But I'll tell you something. The great thing about all these, we'll give you the price in a minute before now how much would you pay? But the thing is, 3 low, low installments. Yeah, yeah. And we can do that frankly. We could do that, we could probably do that. The 3 no installments. Yeah, we could take the installment plan. Yeah, I'll take the installment. Anyway, but the point is, we hopefully, also,
+
+[8:59] you also get a little, like, you know, a spiel and taste about what we're going to be doing in the museum in the upcoming year, directly from Peter's
+
+[9:06] mouth. But the way we structure the, the reason we structure the benefit this way is 9 times out of 10, uh, 10 times out of 10 really, unless you only go to uh, 10 benefits a year and one of them's ours, the, uh, you know, they have a chef come
+
+[9:19] in and uh, the chefs are, you know, maybe they get a couple of chefs or maybe they have big tastings, but typically the chef is doing something that is some version of what you might be able to get at their restaurant. And we do exactly the opposite. It's actually a huge kind of challenge that our chefs take on. It's a huge commitment, which is why we're so grateful to all of the chefs that
+
+[9:38] have done it over the years and the ones that are doing it this year. In fact, I mean, look to see a bunch of them, we invite the chefs who have done it to come just as guests and expect to see some of those heavy hitters there at
+
+[9:47] the benefit as well. But you're going to get stuff that they don't cook otherwise. And so you can't really ever buy any of this stuff. You know, it's not something that they would ever do normally. So we're making them get out of their comfort zone. Yeah, so one night only. I mean, like, you know, like the giant ostrich that Mark did. Now how much would you pay? Yes, exactly. So tickets are $750 ahead. Ouch. And, uh, I'm kidding. Look, we're trying to build a museum here, okay? So 750 ahead. It is, you know, we do put a lot of love into it and tickets are available at benefit.mofed.org. I think we've only got like 10 or 11 tickets left. So definitely hop on and get it pronto if you want to go. But definitely the secret ingredient here isn't love, it's money. Yes, yes. Yes, the secret ingredient here is money. Yes, yes, yes exactly. Um, so, uh, yeah, benefit.mofi.org. Nice. All right. And Jack, is our Kickstarter still going? It is. We got 7 days left. All right, do your plug. get all the plugs out of the way for Custino's sake. Yeah, donate, donate, donate. 7 days left or this website explodes. Are you going to really just say, donate, donate, donate? Yeah. Donate. Donate, donate. Sunday. Yeah, like that. was just baiting you. All right, all right. Here we go. Anyway. Yeah. How close are we, Jack? We're about $7,000 away. So you made half the money from last week. Right. And we have 7 more days. People, please. People, please. People. Come on. Please. Do you want to be able to have a website so that, like, the stuff that you call in to 718-497-2128 actually gets put on a website that works and has new and interesting content? I don't know. Do you? Did you see Jack's puppy dog eyes right now? Jackie Molecules is crying some sweet, sweet H2O out of
+
+[11:36] his out of his tear ducks, right? And you're crying some sweet, sweet Aceua of your forehead. Dude, like, enough with the like, I biked here. Enough. Enough. All right. Today is Cinco de Mayo. and in honor, yesterday, for those of you that listen to this or like follow the tweet, when I was in Mexico a couple of weeks ago, I bought a
+
+[11:57] nixtomatic grinder, which allows me to make masa. Well, better than the corona, which I detest, and better than the
+
+[12:03] cuisinart, which I detest for this application, better than, actually, you made the ride next to mine with me. What a pain in the butt that was. pain in the bleep man. Yeah, that sucked. Tasted good. Yeah, outstanding. Yeah. Half of them went in the trash at the end of the day. People are the worst. You know something about people, people? they're the worst Not you, dear listener, but everybody else. That one next to you is not listening. He's the worst, right? Yeah, the worst. Or her. Maybe she's the worst. don't know. I don't know who's sitting next to you. Yeah. Anyways. So the issue here is that it's hard to get some really interesting corn. So I observed a lot of tortilla, not a lot, but as many as I could while I was working. Tortillas being made in Mexico, came up with my grinder, you know, totally, you know, somehow packed it into my bag and got it under the weight limit. You ever do that trick when you're putting your bag on the scale. And you lift a little bit with the other hand, like you hold it down, you lift a little bit. I do it on the edge or put my knee up against it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's up, Slickster? Same with me. Yeah. Because you know what? They don't know how much they don't weigh me. They don't know how much I weigh. They don't have a weight limit on me. What do they put a weight limit on my bag? they're jerks. I'm buying a grinder. You know what I mean? The other trick is, like, normally when I bring something that's a 1000000000 pounds, I'll just put it in
+
+[13:16] my, I've trained myself over the years to look like I'm carrying a normal weight backpack when I'm in fact
+
+[13:21] carrying, like, a backpack full of lead bricks. You know what I mean? And so if you can if you look like you're like, when you're going through the line, they're like, oh, no, man, we got to weigh that. But if you just look like you're carrying a bag. You can collapse as soon as you get through security. But like, that dude just has purple arms. That's purple. He's purple. You know? His face is white as the driven snow and his arms are purple. This is absolutely normal. Like, you know, you know, he had a body transplant from grimace or something. But, you know, that being as it may, the point is, is that I couldn't carry different countries have different rules about what's coached. So I probably could have gotten the grinder through American TSA, even though I couldn't get the powders through
+
+[14:03] it, because they're usually okay with electric motors, as long as it can't be interpreted as a weapon, but I've had electric motors be problems in Colombia, and no one could tell me with a straight kind of story what the Mexican rules were going to
+
+[14:14] be, so I didn't want a chance, so I had to check it. Anyways. Anyways. Anyways. Okay. So, uh, single to Mayo. I come back. I want to get the good corn. I was talking last week at the other beards, the one that was here with Rick Bayliss, and he's like, well, where should I get the, where should I get the good corn from? He's like, you idiot, go to go to Masienda. I was like, duh, because I know them. Why wasn't I thinking? So I went, in fact, yesterday, I did a fast next normalization people, so it's not the best. But expect more to come. I did met up with Jorge Gavaria from
+
+[14:45] Massienda, who gave me some of the most awesome kind of corns. I was tasting them dry, just really interesting corns. So the one I did yesterday was a white bolita from Micha Khan, which was just had an incredible kind of corn, kind of almost like a, almost like a movie theater of corn taste right out of the dry, uncooked. Yeah, so I
+
+[15:03] mixed my eyes yesterday. So now my game needs. I need to get my nixon my nixtomatic kind of tuned in more and needs to be broken in. I need another couple pounds of masa. And I need to get my tortilla press in order, man. I have that Victoria, the regular Victoria tortilla press, and it's just weak. Everyone says it's great, but I look at it and there's too much slop in the freaking hinge, right? So like, it pinches it in an angle. So the tortillas A, they're too thick on the one, even if I double flip them, I'd have to quadruple freaking flip them to get them the way I
+
+[15:31] want, and then I'm always overpressing the one side that's closest to the freaking handle. Why don't they just machine the thing with the right freaking thickness for what I want. So I'm going to have to build some spacers or else get a better press. Because the lady who like did the best that I saw in Mexico. I mean, I didn't see any of the sweet, sweet, old, you know, Abuelitas doing it with a... Yeah, that's wild. awesome. incredible. But, like, these guys weren't using the little Victoria, like, hand press that I was using, they were using 2 sheets of giant coal roll steel with a, with a, with a big pipe on
+
+[16:02] it, and they were just like, bat, bat, bat, and they were like totally even throughout. So I'm going to more on that later over the next couple weeks. talk about it when I get it. But in honor of the Cinco to my eye, I brought in some treats from Mexico for us. Yeah? So I have, I don't know if I talked about these before, but these are from Puebla. These are camotes. you know these? No. So apparently these nuns. I don't know, Santa Clara, Santa Clara, or something like this. These nuns use this, like, this, like, fancy sweet potato that grows around Puebla, and it's only made in Puebla. They call it commotes and they make these sweets with flavors in them. So why don't we like, they're different flavors. You can read semi-Spanish so you can tell me. And then Jack, you can have some of these. And then also I brought in my favorite Mexican confection, Mazapan. Oh, nice. Mazapan is like their take on marzipan, but it's actually made, it's just made with
+
+[16:51] peanuts and it has a texture of... This is what Halva wishes it would be. Sorry, all of the grease in the Middle East. This is what Halva wishes it could be for those of you that aren't allergic to the peanut.
+
+[17:01] You allergic to the peanut? Not allergic to the peanut. have some peanut. Jack, peanut, peanut product. Love it. Yeah, here, have one. Come take one. Cooking issues. Recording in a studio that may contain nuts. Okay. Now, let's get to some questions. You like that, right? You try that? You try it? You guys are so slow. I would have finished the whole box by now Thanks, Dave. I know, man. You do hungry, hungry hippos, but you know, I like to savor things. Oh, you know what? You jerk. It's called mindfulness, Dave. It's a new thing. Jerk. What flavor are you opening at? Well, we had to do the smarmy accent. Is that... Well, that's a smarty. That just my normal voice, man. Why? You know what I like about them? They dry out on the outside, but the inside has like a kind of an awesome kind of a texture. They're only made in Puebla, baby. Why don't we take a really quick break now? All right, we'll come right back with some actual questions on cooking issues.
+
+[19:16] We're back. And we don't have to do a commercial thing because we're brought to us by us. Yeah, how about that? Is that because nobody loves us enough to support us anymore, Jack? No they love us. We're just switching it up. Cooking is used. It supported by absolutely nobody. Oh, that's not true. so rough. Let me ask you a question, though. I was wondering the other day, who's the largest supplier of heritage
+
+[19:40] and rare breed meats? Um, I think it starts with uh, H? I don't know, I can't place it. can't place it. I can't. I'm taking my tongue, man. I can't I can't. I don't know. I don't know. I am Patrick Martin. All right, Peter, do your Patrick Martin's invitation. man, you can't have me do that. I can't do it. I don't what you're talking about. You're the one who has a good impression. You're a liar. foodsusa.com. That's heritage foodsusa.com. Oh, I see, because he's, because, because Patrick, you get mad. He's probably calling and saying, what are you doing? He's too busy selling, selling meat right now. selling heritage meats. Sam Geiger wrote in a while back with cold pack squirrel. That's right. Cold packed squirrel wants to know. Hey, can you discuss the best way to cook squirrel that have been cold
+
+[20:35] pack can. Thanks, Sam Geiger. Well, Sam. I hate to break this to you, buddy. It's cold pack can. sucker's already cooked. You don't need to cook it again, but I think I was reading actually a lot on Squirrel. The success of squirrel meat Canning. And I've never done it. I knew a guy in, I swear to God, I knew a guy in North Carolina who used to pay his landscaping crew in
+
+[20:56] Squirrel. You know what I'm saying? Because I've only had squirrel in mixed in with stews in North Carolina. So when you're making a squirrel that way, There's really no way for me to tell you I know what squirrel tastes like. It's like when someone gives you little tidbits of alligator that have been coated in like
+
+[21:12] a half inch of batter and fried within an inch of its life, right? Right? So, like, Veronica, what does that taste like? Tastes like fry. I right? Exactly, and it's pretty chewy. Yeah, I've had bigger pieces of alligator and it's kind of like, like, it needs to be really fresh. I had like previously frozen, refrozen, like kept in somebody's like swamp cooler alligator. And in big chunks, you don't want that. Is it like snake? For some reason, I imagine it being like snake. Uh, I've only had snake in small chunks with a taste like fry. I've never had like a whole grilled snake. I'm sure it's good. I love snake. Yeah, but it's going to be fresh, right? I'm sure it's a delicate meat that is abused too much by freezing and refreezing. That's the only large chunk alligators I've ever cooked tasted have been cooked that way. So I'm not, and similarly with squirrel. I'm going to go ahead and say that I've never, I've never had it in such a way that I know I could say this is what squirrel tastes like. My guess is it tastes like rabbit. I hear that how squirrel tastes is vitally dependent on how it was skinned, whether all the glands have been taken out of
+
+[22:09] the squirrel. Um, that said, I mean, I mean, I'm sure it's like, uh, I'm sure it's like rabbit. So if you'd use it anyway, you would use like a canned kind of a rabbit, any kind of a white meat. Strangely, all the cold pack canning, they can in, um, in kind of liquids, not in fat, because I think they're worried about the fat thing, because I think it would be good to have it like riette.
+
+[22:28] I would want, like, put some pork fat up in that piece and make it Riette style, right? wouldn't that be delicious? If anyone out there has made, Hey, Nastasio, the Hammer Lopez is here, move my bag, please. And my helmet, please. Um, I would love to have some squirrel riette. You know what I call that? Squirry yet. Oh, that's right. well I don't know. It's not a piper level pun, but it's okay. Welcome back to the land of New York. Well, you're wearing like something very tropical considering you're just in, you were in Chicago, not Hawaii. Do you think you were going to Hawaii? No, I, this is the show I bought the day when we were late after moving. Remember? No, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were in the process of moving Booker and Dax lab, by the way, up to Connecticut. So, do you have any, we talked about Mark. We talked about, who else did we mention? Christina Tosi. Right. Mike Anthony. Right. Anyone else we know? Winners, friends of the friends of the program? Oh, wait, wait. Wiley got inducted. Oh, yeah. He didn't win. It was a slam dunk. That's just like a lifetime achievement. Still, it's an accolade. Also, Alan Benton? But, I mean, it was like, best bacon is in America. Best bacon is an award? No, no. It was like in America's... It was, it would be salmon. Oh, yeah. it depends what you're using it for, right? Benton's bacon as a culinary bacon, but Sam Edwards is eating bacon. Okay fair enough. And he said, what were you saying? Ben was winning forced us? No, it was like the America, he knew he was winning too. It was like a Wiley kind of award. You know what? Whatever. The only time I ever won something like that, They didn't tell me ahead of time. You know what the worst part of this award was, this program? So in Mark's speech, he thanks sobriety at the end, right? hold on. And then all these other chefs were like, oh, man, I don't think I'm going to drink tonight, man. So I was like, I can't take a bottle of champagne and a straw now because... Well, it wasn't really a party atmosphere anyway with Josh and everything, right? Or was it? Not everyone knew. I've been to situations like that where people are trying to have a festive thing and something really awful has just happened and only some of the people
+
+[24:30] know and it's very tensional. We did have a moment of silence, though, for...
+
+[24:34] because they knew that ahead of... He's from Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, bad year for food all the way around. Shaw too, for me Gullet was this year, right? I don't know who that is Yeah. Well, good for paying attention to the world staff. He went on after Egola to be one of the founders of Quirky. Oh, the air conditioning company? They're not an air conditioning company. You know what I mean, yeah. Yes. Uh, okay. Next question in from Trudy. said, hey, Dave. Oh yeah, Nastasia. gave her a whole pack of that. I have a whole. She's like, I'm done with the sweet potatoes. done with it. Hiya, Dave, Nastasia, and Jack, and now also Peter and Veronica. This is Veronica, by the way, Nastasia. works with me. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I have a high look. This is a good word. I have a hydrocoloid conundrum. I like conundrums. They're good. I've been trying to invent slash create a frozen moose pudding concoction, frozen moose pudding concoction, right? Say that with your say that with your most snoot tootly... Your mouthful of Puebo, man. All right, all right. Puebla. I also need to put my monocle on to do that properly. You don't have your planner's peanut monocle at all times, do you? I usually pack it, but monocle packing. All right. Playing around with a combo of Agar, Xanthan, Poly Dextrose. Silium, which I've never used. I mean, I know what it is, and flax. Basically everything I have on hand. I haven't been, like, that's like a juice bar stuff, right? You're down at the sillian, right? You pay attention to what people do. No, I don't pay attention to it. You just you're the one that tells me all the juice checks. Yeah, I know all the, yeah, but I don't, I don't know. What about you? What are you, Veronica? you juice trend person? you a juice person? I'm a dessert person. Thank goodness. Dessert. Dessert. God bless dessert. You know that a lot of places now are toning down on desserts because their margins aren't as
+
+[26:22] high. Theyd rather flip the tables. Desserts have higher because the ingredients in desserts usually have. You read that article, there's a bunch of articles on this. I didn't, but that's just because I'm not their customer. If I was there, I would order enough desserts to make their margins pretty high. Yeah, well, no, but in other words, like, just like chocolate and cream and stuff. It's just expensive stuff. You know what I mean? A lot more expensive than mashed taters. You what I'm saying? Taters is cheap. I don't know what's prompted that right now. Well, I can walk into a, like, try to make like, uh, whatever. I'm just saying, like, you know, this is why this is why that's like one of the most ubiquitous sides is because it's free. Rice potatoes, beans, all, you know, fundamentally free. I haven't been having much luck, though, since it always comes out slimy. What's your, you hate things that are slimy stars, right? Okra. Oh my god, stars. Remember that okra that we wish? No, it wasn't okra, that slimy. Oh my god, the yam, that Japanese slime yam. What's called? Oh, Tororo. Isn't it start with an M? N? Sticky yam that's like grated, and then it's, yeah, it's... the whole one. It's called like nine. Oh my god. We had the most like HR unfriendly moment in the French culinary where someone had peeled the entire, it's like a 2 foot
+
+[27:38] long... Thallus. There you go. And you peel it and it just self-slimes, like it's made out of personal lubricant. Did you smash it? No, well, we tried holding it. You hit it to moustaches. She squeezed it and shot it across the room and it exploded against the wall. Everyone was like, oh, everyone was like, oh, like that. That's pretty much how it went. Yeah, see you guys next week on... Yeah. Anyway, haven't been having much lefto since it always comes out slimy. This is the problem with this show. This is why, like, we, like aren't nominated. Yeah, because like, I'd say the word slimy, and then for like 3 minutes, we're talking about yams. I got a mental issue. I'm trying to reduce the Xanthan as much as I can, since I think this might be the problem. Well, it is. Xanthe has some slimy. It's not really slimy, it's snotty. Like Xantan is like snot. And also, like, even in like relatively small concentrations. Remember, Xanthe is supposed to be using very small concentrations and relatively small concentrations. It has that, like, jiggly, that, jiggly, like, you know, where, like, you twist, like, a container of it, and the outside starts rotating, but the center stays still for a minute, and then it,
+
+[28:51] like, it, like, has that back motion, that, like, shoulder flick back motion to
+
+[28:55] it. Its milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. And it's not better than yours, which is weird. They come to the yard and they're still like, no, I'll keep, I'll keep the other milkshake that I already have. Anyways, I think the Xanta might be the problem, but I can normally reduce it so far before there's no more thickening effects. See, here's the thing. You shouldn't really use Xanthan as a thickener. You should use Xanthan as a stabilizer, right? Not an emulsifier, but a stabilizer. Well, I'll finish reading your thing before I get it because I had this terrible habit of just going off into tangents. I can't get rid of him. Sorry. This is why, you know, they had me write a book because there you're forced to follow some sort of linear thing. If you go to tangents, at least like there, you can put them in footnotes or something. You know what I mean? Whatever. I also have Agar. Ag god, Ag god. But I'm not sure how to throw that into the mix. I have yet to use any eggs, since I'm trying to keep it vegan, vegan face. What? Uh, stars, you just, you know, I was so happy you made it here, but then you disappointed me with the lack of vegan face. You know what I mean? I want to keep it vegan, if doable. I know this posed problem lacks specifics, but I just want to learn more about what gums will help and which won't, since I'm really fascinated by hydrocollage in general. I've also been wondering about Gorgum. Is this redundant if I already have Xanthan? No, it is not. Um, thing with Guar is, uh, so Guar is very closely related to locust bean gum, but, uh, Guar used to be cheaper. Now that fracking is there, it's not, but bad Guar has a very specific beanie taste, and it tastes like, uh, like, um, not, uh, black-eyed
+
+[30:32] pee flower. You ever had black eyed pe flour? Anyway, there are certain like African dumplings made with black IP flour. And, uh, so I used to have black eyed pee flour around. And it tastes like ground up dried black-eyed peas, right? Which is okay if that's what you want. But not if you don't. Has a distinctive flavor. Yeah, which is unpleasant in ice cream, let's say. So you have to get a higher, more purified form of guar called flavor free guar. And you can get that from a couple places. The one I use is from TIC gums, flavor-free guar, antiweight, 1000 or 4000 or something. It's been a long time since I've had to buy it because it lasts a long time. Uh, Conjak, I haven't used a lot of Conjak, a lot of people use it. I haven't used it a lot. which has got a small amount of, I have yet to test. Gelan. Methocellulose, CMC, gum Arabic, and locust being gum. Will any of these help? So these are like a long list of different hydrocollids. Each has their application here. Which would you prioritize in terms of usefulness in the kitchen? I can't afford all of them, and so I'm looking to equip myself with the best Swiss army knives. Okay. First hydrocolloid that I'd learned to use, 100% inside, outside, upside down is Agar. Why? Because it's super friendly. You can buy it anywhere. Um, and it can do a lot. And so for your situation, you could either do a light set, Agar, right? So you could whip it into a moose with a light set agar and then let it set, right? And it'll set, it'll gel in that moose form, use a small amount of
+
+[31:55] agar, and you can get a really nice texture, like 2%. Uh, sorry, uh, 2%, 2 grams in a, uh, 2 grams per liter of agar. We'll give you a nice, like very easy to break gel that'll just hold that gel there while it's been foamed up after it sets and it sets at a relatively
+
+[32:13] geland probably even better for that. And you could use roughly the same amount because Jalian sets faster than Agar does, but both of them will work. Agar, not free saw stable, which is good. Why? Because when it melts in your mouth, right? The structure of the agar will be obliterated because it's not free sauce stable. So that's good. But, um, then things like guar can stop, uh, when it's frozen, there's still liquids in there, uh, because you haven't fully frozen
+
+[32:39] it, because if you did, it would be hard like a rock, which is not. So things like guar will act as a kind of stabilizer to stop the liquids and solids from separating from themselves. Xanthan will act as also in a similar way to the light Agar would act as a kind of thin geling agent. Don't use enough Xanthan for it to actually be a thickener. Use it like very low percentages, like a quarter of a percent, like 2.5 grams per liter, something
+
+[33:04] like there, just to add a little bit of extra set, like a yield point to the
+
+[33:09] to the thing. What I recommend is this. Go on. I don't agree with everything he says, obviously, but go on Martin Larisch's website, which is Kymos. Download the latest version of his hydrocoloid thing, and then just flip through zillions of
+
+[33:21] his, of the recipes that he crabs from all over the internet and all people and kind of get a feel for what you like, try one or 2 of them, see what you think.
+
+[33:27] I definitely don't agree with all of the with all of it by any standard, but go check that out and obviously check out. There's huge custard and pudding sections in the modernist
+
+[33:38] cuisine and if you don't own it, you know, there are still some reasons for the local library. Did you know that? Yeah, you can, for instance, if you don't own modern cuisine. You can go there and look at it. Yeah, although... I've got a patient caller on the line. Patient caller. are on the air. coming from Los Angeles? Hey, I have a question about piña coladas. Oh, nice. Pi coladas. All right. What do you got? Uh-oh, do we, do we, yeah, how's everything? Coco Lopez, right? Yep. And if I don't want to use that. Let's say I want to like try and make my own at home or add something to like coconut
+
+[34:17] cream, um, I'm wondering what I could add. Like, should I just kind of add the chemicals on the back of the container or is there anything you'd
+
+[34:24] recommend? Yeah, so, by the way, for a while, we thought we'd start calling Nastasia Coco Lopez, but she didn't like it, so we stopped. But the... Yeah. So, okay, the 1st thing you need, obviously, is, um, you're
+
+[34:41] going to need like a very fatty, like a coconut milk product, very fatty, and you're also going to need, so you want it thick, a lot of sugar, and you're going to need a stabilizer. Now, coconut fats in drinks are have, for me, been notoriously difficult to stabilize fully. using like the normal stuff that I normally use, which would be like mixtures of gum Arabic and
+
+[35:07] Xanthan. I haven't looked at the back of a can of coconut cream in a long time, so I'm not sure. What do they use? Do you have one on you? Do you know what they use? So, there's, um, Coconut sugar, water, poly sorbet, 60 sorbet and mono, saturate, um, probably in glycol, alginate, mono, and diglyceride,
+
+[35:29] emulsifier, citric acid, water, gum, locustine gum. Bam. That is quite a list. Wow. Uh, that's hard. That's hardcore. Well, and the reason it's hardcore is because coconut fats are difficult to stabilize
+
+[35:45] in low, especially in low temperature drink applications. I don't think you need to go that hardcore because they don't need to stay emulsified that long. I would, so obviously they're adding an emulsifier. And also a several stabilizers, several emulsifiers and several stabilizers. You could try using what I use, which is just a mixture of gum Arabic and mostly gum Arabic, which you're using as an
+
+[36:11] emulsifier and Xanthan, but it's not going to stabilize fully. How long does it need to stay there? Just for like 20 minutes or like the time it takes. Yeah, I'm gonna have to... So of that list... Some of them need to be cooked and some of them don't, right? And so presumably, if you're going to go through all the trouble, you don't want to cook the hell out of it because you want to have a fresh kind of a flavor, right? Yeah, I would guess. So it's like, uh, huh. It's a tough problem. We had a coconut. I tell you what. At the bar, we finally came up with a recipe for a stabilized
+
+[36:51] coconut like orjot that we used, I'll figure out exactly the ratio as I use. Jack, can you remind me to talk about it on the next program, and I'll just give you the recipe next week on the air. Does that sound good? Yeah. You
+
+[37:06] still have them? Thank you Scott. Anyway. Thanks for that. All right, cool. So we'll get that recipe for you. I'll either tweet it on cooking issues or we'll put it out on the air next week. All righty? All right. Okay. So the other question we had from Trudy was regarding
+
+[37:24] fish bloodlines. I don't have a problem with the taste of the fish bloodline since I actually like the fishiness, but I was wondering what this part of the fish is actually composed of. Is it basically proteins and water? Um, that's what jellified pig's blood consists of when I used to eat at Chinese restaurants. Why do you no longer eat it? Why do you have a different Chinese restaurant? What are your thoughts on the pig blood, Pete? Pete? Peter. I like big blood. Yeah? You like it, a pig blood? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Stash? I don't have I've never had it. Also, a big fan of Boudon Doiro. Yeah, it's good stuff. Totally different though. Yeah, totally different. You know what? I like it when it's got enough. I don't like it when it's so freaking rich. I like it when it's got like enough stuff in it that's not like so rich. Like, when you're just eating, like, a block of just, like, with
+
+[38:11] the bound with the least amount of stuff blush, it's too much for me. Yeah, so actually there's, uh, I think it's Hungarian, they make the a version of the blood sausage with rice in it, right? It just helps to sort of cut it and make it nice rich. It's good. Yeah, it's outside. What about Miami? Got a lot of blood sausage down there in Miami? I don't know if we do, but I definitely haven't had it. can't speak for my people. Nah, in the North Miami. The North Miami, they don't have. She's from Miami, by the way. I have a friend from somewhere. Strong, strong words. That style is trying to be nice people. Oh, yeah. Miami, right? Okay. Is there anything in it that is bad for my dad who has heart health issues? Um, okay. Well, let me get to it. So what you should do is, I
+
+[38:58] will just read this to you. You can find it. It's called Fish and Seafood, Composition and Nutritional Aspects, uh, in the document Seafood Product Teachers Research Guide by Jacqueline Wheeler. It's available as a PDF on the University of Rhode Island's website. And by the way, what we're talking about, we're talking bloodline. I'm assuming we're talking the same thing. We're not actually talking about blood. So when you're talking about clearing the actual blood out of a fish, you're talking about, oh my god, by the way, don't let me forget, if I have time. Shad, Shad season. Does anyone out there, does anyone out there know how to bone a shad? There's an old there's an let me finish this. So remind me. You guys are... Peter, you're the worst. I love you in the way that you're the worst. Anyway, so I'm going to just read you this page, Trudy. Fish muscle, we're talking about the muscle that's along the outside of the fish, and that's basically kind of a fat storage mechanism for fish, especially ones that swim hard.
+
+[39:55] So white fish, fish that have less of that bloodline along the side of them tend to store almost all of their fat in their liver, whereas fish that have a
+
+[40:02] larger, what they call bloodline on the side tend to store a lot of stuff there. So it's different compositions, not actually blood. But so, and so here I will quote from, uh, I'll quote from section 7 A, Dark Muscle and white muscle. Fish muscle does not have a uniform color. This is my reading voice. Nice. Yeah. Some muscles are white. Well, others have a reddish or brown color. This dark color is usually observed just under the skin. The proportion of dark to white muscle differs continuously from head to tail. The portion also varies between species, increasing with the swimming activity of the fish and sometimes approaching 48% of the body weight. There are often differences in the chemical composition of dark and white muscles with respect to protein and lipid contents. The dark muscle has greater concentrations of hemoglobin and myoglobin than the white muscle. The presence of dark muscle is related to the activity of the fish. Those fish that swim continuously throughout their lives usually have a larger proportion of dark muscle than those who often rest on the sea bottom. It appears that white muscle controls short spurts and darting movements, while dark muscle is used for slow, continuous movement. When freezing fish, their dark muscle is sometimes removed in order to prolong the storage life of the fish. The dark muscle spoils faster because it contains hematin
+
+[41:17] compounds which can act as pro oxidants. It has been observed that dark muscle oxidizes 100 times faster than white muscle. Therefore, consumers should be careful not to store dark muscle fish for long periods, since adverse flavor changes may occur due to oxidation. This is how you put your kids to bed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's awesome. I didn't know that, man. interesting. Yeah, see, and sometimes, like, rather than just paraphrasing, better just to read the damn thing. Yeah, of course. I mean, that was just a, that was a really well written, tightly packed chunk of knowledge there. Right? And she finishes up on another note, I want to thank you for your podcast. It's officially my favorite thing to listen to right now. Man, it's gratifying, but also I'm horrified that like there's nothing better than us. Yeah, right? What a world we live in. Yeah, what a world, what a world. For those of you that watch Wizard of Oz a lot. is my favorite thing to listen to right now is going through a stressful time in life when I 1st discover you, so you really
+
+[42:12] helped me pull through it all. Well, thank you very much. Unfortunately, I only recently discovered you, so I'm still at the 2012 episodes and going through them chronologically. Wow. So hopefully my question isn't an old one you've already tackled and hopefully I'll catch the answer in time. Okay, so we got time, right? We got any time? Yep, 2 minutes. Go. I have more questions than I can get to. Let me see. I got I got 2 left. I'll hit some Vegetti. Okay. Did I answer enough real cooking questions? Can I hit some vagetta on the way out? Yeah, go for it. All right. So I'm going to get Joel, next time I'm going to get your oil question and oh,
+
+[42:50] Monty, Monty from Jacksonville, Oregon wrote in. He was asking about Douglas Fir tips. Remember, I told you whether you should use the new tips or the old things. And I said I was going to test hemlock over the weekend. I didn't have an opportunity to, but he tested it and he says, old, old, uh,
+
+[43:06] Doug fur needles, bitter, nasty brew, young ones, sweet, citrusy, uh, delicious brew.
+
+[43:13] So that was his, he answered his own question, so that gave me some, which is a shame because I have a bunch of research here to mention about it, but I
+
+[43:19] didn't. And we're going to get to Ellie on the next one on his
+
+[43:25] corn and oil cocktails. So we will just talk about some Brandon wrote in. Hey, Hammer, Dave, Jackie molecules at all. After following the Vegeti Chronicles of the past few weeks, I thought I'd send you my thoughts on spiralized vegetables, which is, by the way, the technical term. spiralized vegetables. Though I don't have a veggetti. Well, I should think not. You're a dude. I'm kidding. Going back to the double entendre. There's big there's big debates. among our listeners over when she realized, when she realized what was going on. And some people say never, some people say like 3 quarters of the way through. Some people say that she knew at the start. anyway. She didn't, didn't well learn. Though I don't have a veggetti, I do have the perderno spiralizer. And by the way, that's the one that's kind of the Japanese style one that looks like, uh, it's like on a slide and you can do that. I actually have one of those two, but I have it set up to do, um, sheets, like spiral sheets, and that's how I do potatoes for pizza. So potatoes for pizza. I don't want them in little strippy doodles. Like, I don't want them, you know, spiralized. I want like those thin, curly sheets, very thin, almost like potato chip thickness, thin potato, like lay style potato chip thickness, but like in long, long
+
+[44:40] spirals, and you just toss those salt, pepper, oil. And then those on a pizza cook up just the right amount. Do you like thick pizza? Do you like thick potato on a pizza or thin? I don't like potato. What? You don't like you don't like Sullivan streets, potato. Yeah, I don't get that one. Peter, what do you like? I like potato and pizza. But thick or thin? Oh, both ways, man. I'm not a huge fan of the mashed potato because it weighs it down too much. It's leaden. The thing I like about a thin potato is that it's like thin. It doesn't weigh down the crust. I mean, when I've made pizza at home, I don't do like potato tip thin, but I'll go on
+
+[45:18] like, uh, you know, He's holding his hands up. You're on radio. I know, I know. But I don't know, like, that's what, like a millimeter? Yeah, how do they do it in North Miami? How do you like your potato pizza in North Miami? Never had potato pizza. This is new to me. Yeah. Hey, Dave. All right, all right, all right. I mean, all right. Oh my god. So this is too long. All right, Bran, I'm gonna get back. We talk more about spiralized vegetables. will start with it next week. Cookie issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for a thousand...
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agents. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. You just coming to you live from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from about 12 to about
+
+[0:40] 1245. Joined as usual, Witness Dossier, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Yeah, got Jack in the engineering booth. Hello. I'm slow. Hey, what's up? And we have Michael and Andrea, who are here joining us in the studio today because what do you guys do? What was it? Michael, right? Andrea, right? I got this right here. If you hear it, you got it, you got to join in. So what did you guys tell us how you arrived here? We put in a bid for to come here and watch you guys at a rocking the boat, at a charity auction to help support rocking the boat, which is a Bronx
+
+[1:09] space organization where they teach inner city kids about sailing and boat building. help them build out their, you know, confidence and uh, team building skills. Where do you sail to? Well, they, from what I know, they say I'll just basically up there up. I'm trying to think what the waterway is that they're actually in up in the South Bronx, but I know they build the boats out of their boathouse and they launch their boats and sail in that in that bodily water out there, but the 2 of us are actually
+
+[1:33] sailors as well. We see a lot of another club out in New York City. Because I know there's a lot of crazy currents up by like Spite and Duable, right? Is that the old, like, legend up there at the tip of Manhattan that, you know, that guy tried to row across there and got stuck down in the current and eaten by a fish and he was
+
+[1:48] going to do it in spite of the devil? I mean, it's not exactly, you know, where the Hudson and the East River come
+
+[1:52] together if they're not exactly the most. Yeah, not the most friendly of places to be boating around for those who are just learning, right? Yeah, well, the interesting thing is they also have another fundraiser where they row around Manhattan in these old style whaling rowboats. So they have crews that decide to join up and there's 3
+
+[2:10] legs and for each leg you have to raise like X amount of money, but they're out there and they're just rowing constantly all day long. And it's a really good time and it's a really great organization. Yeah, you know, I've never been out on the other than on the freaking circle line. The last time I was in the circle line, the captain in quotes, the guy who was talking, was like unbelievably drunk and spewed nothing but lies and misinformation about New York City. But I need to go back out there because I hear you can get some unbelievable
+
+[2:36] stripers, right in the East River, that there's like a couple channels running up the East River where you can get some great, like great stripers, like right near Roosevelt's Island. It's possible? I know the guys I know that's that fish out of Staten Island, sheep said. They definitely love going fishing for stripers out in the waters there. I don't know about the East River, but maybe the old guys that are along the east river, but they're fishing pole. that's what they're looking for. Look, there's so many people here in freaking New York City. anyone who actually knows where there's going to be a big striper in the East River is not going to say a dang thing about it. No, no. I mean, come on. It's like mushroom hunting, right? It's like no one's going to tell you where the good mushrooms are. They tell you, hey, the good mushrooms are the top of the Empire State Building. because they don't want you to eat. There's 8000000 of us and there's only so many mushrooms. Anyways, same with stripers. Jack, I hear we got a call around the air. That's true Color, you are on the air. Hello, Dave. Nastasia, Jack, guest. It's, uh, Antoine from Boca Richland, Florida. Yeah. How you doing? Hopefully you're not back on juices and vegetables. I mean, I like to mix it up. This is just to hit the niche, the niche group of people, you know? So what's up? do you got for us today? Today's questions are, um, is there any benefit to ever using bleached
+
+[3:47] flour, and is there any disadvantages, milling your own? Huh. Well, uh, now look, so everyone that's ever done, I have not done the side by side myself, but for anyone that's ever, uh, done the side by side on cake flour versus not cake
+
+[4:05] flour, for cake applications, everyone always says the cake flour is better and cake flour, I mean, I guess there's brands that aren't, but the ones that we use, like
+
+[4:15] swans down and the other ones, what's the other one? Styles? you remember? You don't like cakes. to make them. She eats them. I want to hear anything. Uh, no one call and say she doesn't like cakes. I mean, she doesn't like many, like she doesn't like biscuits, but she likes cakes. She doesn't like to make it, right? Right. Yeah. They're all bleached. And so I don't know whether the, I don't know whether the bleaching per se does anything. I had once researched it. Um, but I don't kind of remember the bleaching. Remember also oxidizes, it changes the properties of it, but I'd have to go back and do, I'd have to go back and redo the research to figure out exactly kind of what I
+
+[4:52] thought. What are you thinking about? Uh, I mean, I just want to, I'm gonna, I'm thinking of going in the investment of buying a stone ground mill, and I just want to see if I can generally apply it to pretty much a little bit of everything I'm going to be doing.
+
+[5:07] I mean, even I, I, I don't know, but I mean, I imagine I could probably do, uh, cornflower on there to do tortillas,
+
+[5:15] imagining. No, no, no. No. no? No, no, no, no, look, what I want to, I want to get, look, there's a bunch of research on I recently did a bunch of research on grinding because I was, when I was going to Mexico, I was going to get the
+
+[5:28] Knicks domatic grinder for doing Masa. And uh, all of the kind of high-end uh, flour mills here, the stone ones. what are you looking at? You looking at like a red cell, or are you looking at like which company are you looking at? I don't remember the name of it. It's one that I've seen Dan Barber also uses this place that it's just, it's automatic. Yeah, and it's like around $400 or so. Yeah, I forget all the prices. There's a bunch of different ranges and uh, so none of those are designed to do wet milling of masa. So, just don't even, there's a one or 2 that will maybe sell you a stone that's designed to do masa, but you think you're much better off getting, if you're going to do masa, is getting like one that's made for it. You know what I mean? But they're supposedly fantastic at flour milling, and I didn't get a chance to read the kind of super technical stuff on it. But the, um, a lot of people are bent out of shape because most of the stones now are composite stones made from
+
+[6:28] aluminum oxide. And so like some people are anti-aluminum oxide because of the old, you know, kind of the old, now
+
+[6:35] discredited Alzheimer's theories about aluminum. So people got freaky deaky about having aluminum oxide grinding wheels. But that said, I think 99.9%. unless they're going and buying like French stone cutting it and like doing it. They're all composite stones that are being made by Abraises corporations. Now, you know, again, like it's been a while since I've researched it, but you know, look into that. But, uh, you know, the research that I saw shows that there's a kind of a different kind of a shearing effect that happens in some of these kind
+
+[7:07] of, um, old stone grinders, but I've never done a side by side with an equivalently
+
+[7:12] dressed, uh, stone grinder versus an, you know, equivalently sized uh, metal one. So I don't have any way of saying, but most of the jockeys who do it, they like their stone grinders.
+
+[7:24] The other thing is that now there's relatively inexpensive kind of, you know, like bursting grain, like micronizing grills that use like intermeshed teeth that can supposedly do a very good
+
+[7:37] job as well. But, I mean, and again, I haven't looked at the, at the, you know, micrographs, pictures of the flour milled in the different ways, but I assume they're probably different. Yeah, because I was thinking of whether I wanted to get the stone grown one or just the KitchenAid attachment. I don't like the kitchen aid. I mean, I love the KitchenAid, but I hate the, I hate the, it's going to be nothing but disappointment to you. Unless you're just making beer, in which case it does a fantastic job of like, you know, crushing up barley to make beer with. Like, making flour with the kitchen age. It just going to be a source of frustration. It heats the flour up like a monster. It clogs if you put anything oily into it. It doesn't have a very high throughput. It's loud. It's like, I, I, there's just, I bought it thinking it was going to change my life years and years ago and it just sits in my drawer making me angry. All right. Thanks for that. I mean, that hurts saving me some money. for sure. Yeah, I mean, look, maybe they've redesigned it. I don't know. And I don't no offense to the KitchenAid Corporation, because I'd love it if they gave us some free mixers, right? Stas? Couldn't you use a KitchenAid? Yeah, well, me, me, me. You could use another new ones, the big ones. You know what I really want from them? I want their I want the pasta, not the extruder, which doesn't work. I want the rollers because this way I don't have to bolt down the pasta roller, but they charge
+
+[8:50] like, it's over a 100 bucks for the roller, just for the roller. Does that seem to make any sense to you? Hunt over 100 bucks for the roller? Seems high. Anyways. Uh, I would wait and invest your money in a real standalone uh, grinder that's going to do uh, a good job for you. And I wouldn't believe a lot of the hype. It's hard to cut through the hype on the, on the grain mills because most of the, uh, a lot of the, I'm
+
+[9:15] not going to say most, a lot of the grain mills review sites are like doomsday preppers and or, um, like, you know, people with uh, dubious kind of health and diet beliefs.
+
+[9:26] And so, uh, it's hard to kind of sift fact from fantasy and some of the claims that are made
+
+[9:33] about them. So it, that's one of the reasons why it's difficult. So I would go mainly on build quality and what people say about the quality of the breads they can make with the flowers that they
+
+[9:43] do. And go back. You'll be able to grind corn fine, just not masa for tortillas. Gotcha. Otherwise, I'd have to go the hand route, I guess. Yeah, no. Now, listen. So like I was talking to Jorge Masienda, because I made another batch of tortillas actually over the weekend. This time I cooked them in the tandor, and my grinder, my next stomatic is wearing in. So it's actually producing every time I make Masa with it, it gets a little bit a little bit better. But what he was saying is, is that even if you have a substandard masa grinder, then if you go and manually work it on a matate afterwards, it can like bring it up to the level of excellent masa, even
+
+[10:22] though so you have to use kind of a two-step technique. He even said that maybe if you had a big moco jete that you could probably like work the
+
+[10:28] masa in a moco jete a little bit to get that kind of extra textural thing. He said he knows some people that have done that with good results. But I'm still working on getting my just my next pneumatic grinder, you know, producing exactly what I want. By the way, sorry, but I just don't want to leave without saying it, but like certain mills are known for doing better with certain products.
+
+[10:49] So certain mills are known for like, you know, having the stones glaze over, if you put certain grain products through them versus others. So I would like try to figure out what you want to do most and then find reviews from people who do that with it all day. Excellent. I didn't know if there was like one that was all purpose across the board that you could use for all of them. Again, it's been a while. I kind of want, uh, I think it's Red Cell as the company, but they're like kind of nut jobs, like, kind of like me, you can't get in touch with them. You know what I mean? And they make grinders whenever they feel like it and they ship it whenever they feel like it and they have like some hand crank ones and some, a lot of people want hand crank ones because they still want to be able to bake bread when the world is over,
+
+[11:29] right? So, uh, so like, you know, but presumingly, you know, uh, Florida's going to be a tough place to live if
+
+[11:36] the, if the world ends because, you know, like probably we'll be flooded there anyway. So you might want to say, I'm going to assume that I have electricity. It might be an assumption that you're going to make. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Very good. I also wonder, though, what are your feelings and thoughts on people starting to eat insects or that little
+
+[11:55] trend coming out? I think if you think they're delicious, you should eat whatever you want. I've never had an insect where I was like, damn, that was delicious. You know what I mean? It's like, grasshoppers are crunchy, uh, but they're not delicious. You know what I mean? And like the legs get kind of caught in your in your teeth. I had the ant eggs. Those are quite good. You know what I mean? In Mexico. I brought home some of the ants. I shouldn't say this because it's illegal, but I brought home some of the ant like bodies for Booker because and he liked them. But I think if something is delicious, then eat it, but, you know, and most things that aren't are like fads that end up going away anyway. It's like most people don't actually like absinthe, which is why, like, the trend went crazy for a while when people thought they were going to get all impressionistic, messed up, like,
+
+[12:41] to loosely trekked out on the green, you know, fairy or whatever. It's called. And then when they realize that, you know, it's mainly the alcohol that's messing you up. They're like, wow, I don't like absinthe. Why am I drinking it? You know, and then it and then the consumption level dropped down back to those people who like it, you know? Yeah. All right, very good. Thank you as always. Super beneficial information. I'll be talking to you later. Yeah, tweet on in and when you decide to buy a flower mill, let us know how it worked out. You get it, you got it, man. All right, cool. I got the police on the line about ant legs. Well, it was the, it was the, uh, you know, it was the back end of the ants.
+
+[13:17] and there were these six. I couldn't speak the Spanish. There are these fancy, I think they're Oaxacan ants, and I'll look it up. I'll look at it. look it up. I'll look it up. But, yeah, you're not supposed to bring ants back into the country. I said I brought candy back, which is kind of true. Snacks for the kids. They're dry. They're dead. They're not gonna, they're not gonna, like, you know, it's, like, I'm not gonna cause the next Asian longhorn beetle infestation. These suckers are dead as doornails, like dried, desiccated in a sack. You know what I mean? Uh, stars. You like the grasshoppers? haven't had them yet. No? What about you guys? You guys eating the grasshoppers? I've never had any of the bugs. No? I've eaten agave worm, but I don't remember it. It's like, I'm not like, not because I was too drunk, but I'm saying it doesn't have much of a flavor. You know what I mean? Like these things, it's an extra source of protein, right? Yeah, you're really supposed to chew. You're just supposed to swallow them once they go. Yeah, I think you're supposed to bite it in half to prove that you know that it's in your mouth rather than just letting it wash down, I think. I don't know. I haven't had one of those since I was in college. You know? I just know they're no good. Jack, what about you? You an insect eater? Yeah, I'm done with it. I mean, I've had like the cricket bars, like those protein bar kind of things. I even had cricket bitters in an event. Yeah, I had the bars once, but they're just flour. It like cricket flowers. Right, exactly. I don't think that they're, I mean, like, I wasn't like, you know what? When you're cooking something, like, you know what this needs? This needs a pinch of cricket flower. You know what I mean? does that come up? Not for me. I have another caller. Caller, you were on the air. Fantastic, Dave, big fan. So I have a constrained cooking challenge, which is going to be at a beach house and can't bring much lard with
+
+[15:04] me, apart from, you know, the few powdered collections I have, looking for something interesting to make, uh, for
+
+[15:10] crowd, uh, other than just, you know, the modernist cheese dip to show that I can do a better cheese dip than what comes in a jar. Right. Curious, if you have any fun thoughts, uh, apart, and I have got the frozen fruit from liquid intelligence, but uh, any other ideas? Hmm, that's a good one. To whip out it. Well, what are the parameters? Like what, 1st of all, do you have a particular course that you're doing or is
+
+[15:33] there... No, just one night, I've traditionally been, uh, you know, one of the better cooks in this social circle and like to have a lot of fun, uh, brought down circulators in the past, but, uh, and, you know, the sears all, but uh, can't do that this year. Um, but, uh, I was thinking of doing, you know, doing a jury rigged rotisserie over a beach
+
+[15:55] fire, um, but, you know, that's, that's fun, but, uh, Not particularly flashy. I was curious if you have any fun thoughts. Well, I usually, I usually, when I'm going to go to an event, I know I can't bring my equipment. I'll cheat and I'll cook everything ahead of time, bring it, and then just do the finishing there, right? So I'll do all my low temping back at the house, seal the stuff down in ice packs, bring it, throw it in the fridge, and then you look like, you look like some sort of like, like, you know,
+
+[16:26] genius because everyone else is working and doing all this stuff and you're like, don't worry, you know, I'm going to start cooking like about 30 minutes before, it depends also on like, what do you mean by
+
+[16:35] flashy? Flashy, you should bring some liquid nitrogen. Now, I know you said you can't, but like if you're liquid nitrogen at a beach party, you know, as long as you follow the safety regulations, that's like pretty much a
+
+[16:45] win. You know what I mean? Depending on how hot it is out there. Um, you know? So we could find a welding supply place nearby. And so, you know, it's a schlept down for a week on the beach, so I can't, uh, can't really pre-cook too much. Oh, yeah. Um, but, uh, I like to do funny welding supply place and just, uh, you know, renting endures. Yeah, here's something, don't do this, but I've always wanted to. Don't do this. Don't. I don't want to hear anyone saying that they've done this. But have you guys ever gone on the YouTube and looked at the videos of the engineering professor guy who starts his grills with liquid
+
+[17:23] oxygen? Anyone? Now have you guys seen this? That sounds awesome. Oh my god, you have to see the video. So what he did was he took this hibachi, like grill. Like, we know one of the round, flat ones, sticks it on the ground, puts a mound of coal, like the size of like a
+
+[17:39] whole, small, like Kingsford bag. Then he puts like a lit, like, I think it's like something like a lit stick or cigarette on top of it and then dumps liquid oxygen onto it and goes, whoosh. And the whole thing is like the entire grill is melted, and there's a small pile of perfectly ready coals left on the ground in like under 5 seconds.
+
+[18:02] Talk about flashy. You know what I mean? And like, that's someone where you're like, you know, right at the end, you're, you know, you're, you're, you know, cooking. That's like the good way to go. Well, speaking though, but I've been doing a lot of high heat work recently because I've been working a lot with the
+
+[18:17] tandor. And really, really good results with the tandor for kind of outdoor fast heat cooking.
+
+[18:25] It's hard to mimic in a regular grill because you can't get the heat from kind
+
+[18:30] of, um, uh, both sides at once. But what I what I'm learning on a tandor, when when you can't do the low temp stuff, is the wisdom of super
+
+[18:40] high but intermittent heat, right? So when you're cooking food in a tandor, uh, meats, you go in there for like three, 4
+
+[18:51] minutes, and it's like 800 degrees from all sides, and then you'll pull it out and you'll hang it and you'll let the meat cool off a little bit. And then you'll do that like two, 3 times, and it builds up the crust, right? the same way that a rotisserie might, but it doesn't overcook the inside. Of course, remember also with tandor, you're usually doing some sort of surface tenderization with yogurt or acid or beating the crap out of it, which is another
+
+[19:14] time on or tenderization technique. But I'm learning the wisdom of this kind of multiple cooking and hanging. So remember everything in a tandor happens on these kind of skewers. And so they'll go in, they'll come out, they'll hang, I'll cook other stuff that can sit around longer,
+
+[19:29] and then I'll put them back, but it requires like relatively high heat. So you can need a very big bed of coals like close to your grate. Cool. Is there anything you can do on an open fire on a beach that you can't do on a regular grill?
+
+[19:43] Well, clam, clam, clam bake, you're supposed to build the fire in the ground, then line it with... Now, that is super baller. Like, if, like, if you do an old school, do you guys do old school clam blakes? I'm talking to the guys in the studio. you guys done it? Oh, no. I grew up in New England, so it's sort of standard protocol. Fourth of July weekend. You do a clam bake. But here's the thing, everything's viciously overcooked, am I right? Yeah, but it's still flash. Yeah, it is flat, but like the idea that you bury everything. But how much seaweed do you have to put over the top to not have it be a problem with sand and crap getting in your
+
+[20:13] stuff? Or do they cheat? Have you ever seen someone do it old school? Seaweed and burlap. Seaweed and burlap? Yeah. And, and, what do you, you, corn, lobsters, clams. Like, how do you what do you put in yours? Yeah, sausage, corn, potatoes, clams, lobsters. I think that's it. And the lobsters aren't just like so way overdone. I'm sure the corn is delicious. I'm sure the corn, the potatoes and the sausages are good. And the rest is kind of there for show. But like burying something, yeah, burying something like that is pretty is pretty awesome, I would say. A lot of digging. And a long time. Well, and also how far up above the waterline. You don't put it in wet sand. It's got to be way up there and that stuff doesn't hold a, like you can't. You're above the tideline. Yeah, and how do you get the sand to go out of the way? The dump angle of sand is pretty low. lot of digging. A lot of digging. Get a backhoe. Oh my god. Backhoe, clam big. Oh my god. Imagine that. I want to do that. In Connecticut, I'm talking to someone, if we ever get something, we're going to do, we're going to dig huge pits in the ground to do big pit cook stuff. But anyway, pit cooking is good. If you can bring a thermometer, they can get down in the pit. you could probably measure it. You could probably even pull something when it's done, but usually they're done on retained. I think the problem with clam baked cooking is most people don't wait long enough to layer this stuff
+
+[21:28] in and they're dealing with too high or retained heat. If you were to judge it just right with a retained heat cooking by using the earth as your oven. I'm sure you could do it without overcooking because you'd put the stuff in kind of right at the point where it wasn't going to cook anymore. You just let it ride for a long time. So you throw your sausages in early, along with your corn and your potatoes. You'd wait, right? Then you'd kind of unearth, throw in your seafood on top. It would cook, the juices would go down into your potatoes and whatnot, and you'd be good to go. But I don't think anyone's written the definitive book on how to make a clam bake that doesn't overcook the food viciously.
+
+[22:00] This could be your next project. Yeah. Stas and Stas, it's putting her, don't do that kind of like, she's looking at something else, but if I actually said to her, I was gonna, that we were
+
+[22:09] going to spend the next 3 weeks working on clam bake, she would probably, you might like
+
+[22:13] it actually. More than what we're supposed to be doing. beach, yeah, not at your house. Well, you know, I hate beaches is the problem. But I don't hate them. I love looking at them from a deck. You know what I mean? I don't like the feeling of sand between my feet. I hate it. My booker loves to hug me when he's full of sand on the beach, which is a nightmare. And as I said many times on the air, I'm that guy at the beach with the long pants, the
+
+[22:38] big wide brimmed hat and the long shirt, that's me. If you ever see that guy, that's me. Yeah. Look at me. White. Anyway, hopefully that helps. Oh, yeah, did any of this information help? Are you still there? I'm still there? That was great. All right, cool. Let us know what happened. Let us know what you did. I love to hear this stuff. Tweeted on over. All right, I'll call in. All right, Jack, you want to take commercial break? sounds good. We'll come right back with more cooking issues.
+
+[23:16] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[23:37] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms. and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them, and heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal
+
+[24:00] producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[24:18] humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. Wait, Jack, I wasn't listening to the beginning. Is that Steve Jenkins? Steve Jenkins. And who do we figure out he sounds like? Like a mix between Alec Baldwin and someone else? He's got a little Baldwin in him. It's like Baldwin mixed with like, it's like Baldwin mixed with Costanza, right? Damn good voice, isn't it? Yeah, it's like a Costanza Baldwin. Yeah, that's Steve Jenkins is from Steve Jenkins from Fairway doing a heritage foods ad. So that's kind of confusing. So at the beginning of the outset, you say the heritage foods is the largest purveyor of turkeys and what was the other one? Turkeys and in the in the promo? But not goats. You guys aren't the largest heritage goat goat seller. Sorry, I have to check on that. Yeah, it's like, I was like, you know, I was like, sell some mean goat, though. Yeah. No goat left behind, right? I once delivered a whole goat in the back of my trunk to a customer.
+
+[25:28] was great. Yeah? How that, like, was it, uh, we won't say that you did that because I'm sure you didn't have a reefer truck. I had a dream once that we did that. Yeah. It was a cool dream. All the street meat guys were giving me a lot of funny looks. You know where I learned the term reefer truck from? Convoy song, convoy song, greatest song ever. Convoy. Stas. You don't even like convoy, right? You hate you hate songs that have stories in them. Styles hate story songs. She doesn't like the gambler. You have a lot of questions you need to answer. Oh, you see what I'm saying? She doesn't want to even deal with it. Before go on, so we're saying, uh, the question was in the in the studio here was, like, I didn't really talk about the the person called before, I was interested in rotisseries, and we didn't talk about the rotisserie. I was just thinking that a rotisserie at the beach might be kind of a pain to set up, if you don't, if you're not going to bring a circulator, what are the odds
+
+[26:16] you going to bring a rotisserie? And the point is you could crank it by hand, right? And Nastasia here said that you made a hand crank rotisserie once. What do you cook? Chicken. Chick. Well chicken doesn't take that long, right? How was it? No, it was like whole chickens, like 30 little chicken. Like a bunch? And who actually turned it? You turned it or you made Phil turn it? No, this is back in a better place with lots of boys. To turn it? Oh, wait, in Switzerland? you made your campers do it? Stas used to be a camp counselor in Switzerland. What? Okay, yeah, it was good chicken. Another thing you could do, if you don't want to turn it, is you could go the vertical vertical rotisserie where you hang it from a string and then you just like kick it every once in a while. Dont actually kick it with your feet, like poke it with a stick. But then it just automatically rotates and but it's vertical. You like the vertical rotisserie? No? But you've seen it like on streets. Like, that's how, like... Oh, you mean like, yeah. Yeah, it works. Right? You weren't with me in Mexico, right? Mexico, this one place that was making the, like, the really, like, the, the high-end Pasteur, the place that Jordana and Alex Dupac, who are, you know, writing a book on tacos or wrote a book on tacos,
+
+[27:18] actually not out yet. This is the place they said to go. It's like a gas station or a mechanic shop during the day and at night it's like an al pastor shop. Those guys, they had flames shooting out of their rotisserie hitting the meat. And by the way, the way they do the El Pestor there. It's not like some chummed up meat, like, you know, like a donor is. It's like flaps of meat that are stacked all around on the thing. And they had such a high heat coming out that they had a really good crispiness going on. But I realized they can only accomplish that because they make 8000000000 of these dang
+
+[27:49] things, so they can keep it on real high and they just keep going all the time and it's perfect. I was wondering whether he had like a Wawa pedal for the flame, which would be kind of awesome, right? Then you could like DY, you know, with the flame. That's what I kind of wanted to build. Anyway. All right. Sty says I should get to some of these questions. Yes? Yes. Okay. Um, this in from BJD. Please say hello to Jack, Jack. Hello. Hello. Hello. Um, wait. This is in the middle of the question. Somehow I missed half the question. It just says, it starts with also. The question starts with... Maybe that's how he started. That's how he started. Also. Usually not. Anyway. Also, the liquid that leeches from the meat I cook in my circulator, if I'm not using it to make a pan sauce, is it safe to pour over dog food for my dog,
+
+[28:37] well, let it cool first. But yes, of course. That's it how he started it. Yeah, also, by the way, my dog, super freaking picky, will not eat the dry food unless there's wet food
+
+[28:47] out now. I thought dogs were supposed to eat anything. That's what dogs do. eat any damn thing. Won't eat the dry food. Just managed to show how bad that dry food probably tastes. I've never tried it. Sure, it's terrible. Additionally, not related. If I'm doing chicken, low temperature for insurance. By the way, before frying, can I bag it with the buttermilk, brine? brine bagged or not, what time attempt should I go with for squeamish folk? Okay, so, um, here's the thing. Yes, you can bag a chicken with a buttermilk brine and cook it. Just realize this. If you leave it in contact with the buttermilk for a long time. It's gonna get soft. The whole portion. The whole point of buttermilk brine is to soften the meat fibers with the acidity. So I don't actually do buttermilk brines because I find that low temperature plus buttermilk makes the stuff too soft in my taste.
+
+[29:42] I've tried it And to me, it's like a little bit mushy. especially if you're vacuum bagging it and you're actually injecting the buttermilk into the fibers of the
+
+[29:51] chicken. It's much more effective at delivering that acid into the inner parts of the chicken
+
+[29:58] and just simple soaking alone. And so, you know, I just don't, it's not my thing. I do a milk brine, milk, salt,
+
+[30:07] water, and I don't know if it makes it any better. It's just for years, I've always done my brine as a straight milk, not as a buttermilk, and my batter is always buttermilk. I've always done it that way. Um, so anyway, so yes, you can do it. Um, but just expect it to be a little bit uh, mushy. What I, and by the way, for those of you that don't know, low temperature for insurance is where you take something like chicken and you cook it all the way through in a circulator, then you let it
+
+[30:31] cool, and then you fry it like it's normal or cook it like it's normal. And the reason to do this is because let's say you're making,
+
+[30:39] when you're making chicken, I used to have to put in the large pieces of chicken 1st at the fryer at a low temperature, raise the
+
+[30:46] temperature of the fryer, do the smaller pieces of chicken, then raise the temperature of the fryer
+
+[30:51] again and then do French fries, right? Or onion rings, right? But if you're doing low temperature for insurance, all of the meat's already cooked through all the
+
+[30:59] way. So you can just cook, you know, everything from the largest breast down to the French fries, all in the same temperature of oil. So it just makes it much more convenient because you can go back and forth between products without having
+
+[31:14] to like, you know, keep adjusting your fryer to different temperatures or adjusting your oil to different temperatures.
+
+[31:18] So it's a great technique for stuff like that. And you can just focus on getting the breading kind of the way you want it. Here are some tips. For leg meat. If you're going to bag it, I would bone all of the leg
+
+[31:31] meat, especially because you're going to get pink around the bone, that you're not going to be able to cook away and no one's going to like it. So I usually bone out meat if I'm going to bag it. If you're not gonna bag it, if you're just gonna ziploc it, then you don't necessarily need to bone it out. But I would go on the high side. So I would go like 60, like 6 Celsius, right? Something like there. Um, even though the meat is cooked, tasting and looking around like 64, 65, I would go 66, 67. It's not going to dry out because it's dark meat, right? And especially if it's brined, it's not going to dry out, and it's going to get some of that color gone. that's gonna freak people out. On the white meat. I go straight 64 If people are going to be a little bit squeamish, you could do a 65 but don't go above 65 on the white meat. So here's how I usually do it. I throw the dark meat in at the high temperature in a bag. I bag them separately. I throw the dark meat in at the high temperature. I let that go. I keep everything fairly small. I let that go for about 45 minutes. to an hour. The temperature soaks through, then I drop down to my white meat temperature. I throw the white meat in. I let it ride out for another 45 minutes or so. Depends on the thickness of your product and how keep them separated. pull it out. Then I unbag them immediately and let the, uh, let it drain while it's hot so that you get rid of the moisture that's on the surface of the chicken skin, then the chicken skin can get tacky,
+
+[33:02] uh, and then it holds onto your uh, breading better. So that's the way I do it. A lot of people who let it cool in the bag. or they let it sit in the bag and they pull it out when it's cooler. They find that using the pre-cook for insurance means that they have poor batter adhesion. And so I just say pull it out when it's hot and that'll solve the problem. Yeah? Okay. Um, what else we got here? Joel Esposito wrote in. this is like a long time ago that we've never gotten to this question. And now I've forgotten what I was going to say. So we're going to have to just wing it. going to wing it. I was thinking about oil dispensers recently, as I currently pour straight from the store bought containers, which inevitably ends up making an oily mess no matter what sort of anti-drip cap they put on the bottles. You should you should come to Roberta's, man. The oil dispensers here are like demons. Jack, have you noticed this? Yes. They're the worst. They're the worst. They, they, absolute worst. I mean, it's no offense to the product to make. I just hate their oil things. We've already had the discussion about their standard, uh, the standard red hot pepper shakers. Nastasi and I would both... if I could go back in time and meet one person. It would be the person that invented that and I would slap them in the face. You know what I mean? It works for like the grated Parmesan cheese, but... Yeah, but they don't serve that here because that's an enemy of quality. Right? Oh, it is, yes. Yeah, and they don't serve things here that are enemies of quality, except for, yes, except for that
+
+[34:22] freak. And I'm looking at someone doing it right now. Right now. There's this lady out here trying to get red pepper on her pizza. Unscrew the cap. They should just have a solid cap on it so that you have to unscrew it. Oh my god. Anyways. Okay. Uh, so I ventured on Amazon to browse the marketing of oil dispensing technology.
+
+[34:43] That's a good sentence. At first, I was looking for a machinist style oiler with a trigger and wide
+
+[34:48] base, as I felt this would be a good solution. After a brief search, I could neither turn up said product nor a real deal stainless steel machinist oiler. Yeah, they're all made with regular steel, I think. Although, you remember what I used to have that? Okay, so the one the one that Joel's talking about is the one with the trigger on it where it has the long goose thin
+
+[35:07] goose neck and you're like, right? You put it in. But the one that I actually like is the one that has the curved bottom, that goes, um, um, um. You know what I mean? You press on the bottom, and, like, it's like, it looks like a can. It looks like a, like a, like a, like a half dome can with a long spout coming out of the top and you just press the bottom and it makes that metal noise.
+
+[35:31] I used to love using that thing. I had no good reason to use it as a kid, so I had oil getting everywhere, but I used to just love pressing on that damn thing. You ever have one of those stuff? You know what I'm talking about though, right? Yeah. You probably seen them in like old cartoons from the 40s. Uh, okay. Then I thought about what the ultimate dispensing device would be and what sort of challenges would it need to overcome? These are the challenges in bullet point form. No drips down the side of the container. Thermally insulated. Now why does it need to be thermally insulated? Why? Because you're going to have it too close to your stove? Maybe just don't keep it too close to your stove, right? Although I do have that problem. Sometimes my oil jug, I have a 3 liter jug of olive oil that I keep, it can, that I keep next to my stove. Sometimes it gets a little warm, maybe thermal insulated. I don't know Completely opaque to avoid light-based oxidation. All right, I get that. Here's the problem, though. If it's completely opaque, you don't know how much is in there, unless you do it by weight. What? You could add like a glass window so you can see how much is left. Right, and then presume, because right, because not that much lights going through the glass. Or an oil dipper. A oil dipper, a dipstick. A dipstick. I just had to teach Dax what a dipstick was because we got this tractor over the weekend, like an old tractor from the
+
+[36:40] 70s, and I was like, this is a dipstick. It's not something you call your buddies. It's something that measures oil, uh, and showed them how to wipe it down and, you know, been a while because, you know,
+
+[36:50] in like a modern car. Like I have a Subaru. I haven't looked at the oil once. I don't even know if my Subaru has a dipstick. I have no idea. Uh, anyway, uh, devoid of oxygen to mitigate rancidity. That's a good call, right? And pressurized for spraying across pan or grill surfaces. Presumably, Joel doesn't like the, well, here's the thing. I think, okay, anyway, I'll finish reading and then we'll go into it. This sounds a lot like a thermal whip to me. Thermal Whip is the EC whipped cream maker, but the one that's insulated, right? They're fantastically expensive. They're used typically because you have something hot that you want to keep hot or cold that you want to keep cold, but you don't want to keep your whipper in the fridge or keep it in
+
+[37:31] a hot water bath. So you can either pre-chill or preheat the inside of it, fill it with hot or cold, and it'll stay hot or cold like a thermos for a long time, right? Yeah. But they're about twice the size of the equivalent EC would be if it wasn't a thermal. Uh, it sounds a lot like a thermal to me. utilizing non-fat soluble chargers, IECO2. CO2 is soluble in fat, not as much as N2O, but it is soluble in fat. With a
+
+[37:57] stubby, narrow piping or injection tip attached, you could charge it once and empty the headspace to provide a gas flush
+
+[38:02] effect and then charge again to pressurized. But what are you using? It's so expensive that you're this worried about it? like argon oil? What are you using some sort of like fancy like oil that's like only harvested from a yak, like one period of time during Tibet, like in Tibet, like
+
+[38:16] in the high regions or something? I mean, like, that's some fanciness you're going through for your oil? Anyway. I mean, I'm sure you have, I guess, look, there's olive oils out there that are fantastically expensive. That would be worth saving. Yeah. Okay, okay. It'll be especially baller to have an atomizer attachment to facilitate misting. I'm interested to hear Dave's thoughts on this. Any safety issues, oil, gas, mist, igniting, and a grilling application. Have I ever, have I ever sprayed Pam over a grill and had it ignite? yet. No, I haven't yet done it. Uh, low oxygen, nasties, and infused oil, uh, et cetera. Thanks. Okay. So I looked up the oilers that we were talking about the oil you're looking for, by the way, which are not made of stainless
+
+[39:01] steel, is the golden rod, the golden rod, pistol pump oiler, 6 inch
+
+[39:06] model 606. That's the one you're you're looking for. You ever see the movie Breaker Morant? No, good movie. And you guys see Breaker Morant? I don't think they watch it anymore. It was about this guy who got executed during the Boer War for anyway, whatever. Whenever anyone says 60 something. I think of that movie Breaker Morant, but no one's seen it anymore. Jack, you seen Breaker Morant? No I haven't. Everyone's terrible. You know what? Well, I was dealing with the bartenders and they hadn't seen things like Indiana Jones
+
+[39:31] and the Temple of Doom. They're like 25. What's Jack? Like 25. I've seen all the movies from the 40s Thank you. 29. Was I alive in the 40s? I've seen all those movies. I'm saying. You're a better person than everybody. I mean, me, me, me. cheese nostalgia tries to just make me feel bad. Anyways. It's a little taste, people, of what I have to deal with on a daily basis. Only goes one way. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But Joel, why do you hate on the Misto, the Misto? I have to admit, I hate, you guys familiar with the misto? know what I'm talking about? You buy it. It's like a little aerosol pump for oils. It doesn't do dripping. It only does the mist, right? I read a lot of, I had a bad luck with it because I got to be honest, I melted one. And then, and then gummed it up. But if you read about it, what they say is that if you store it under pressure, right? It's it's it follows some of your things. It's a pick, right? You could take Argon and, like, flush Argon thing. You'd have to rerig it to pump with something other than air. You'd have to pump it with argon or nitrogen or something like this. Nitrogen is really what you want to use, by the way. Not nitrous or CO2. You want to use nitrogen or argon. Oh my god, Stas, I know what you want to do. Here's what you do. What's that thing called that they had that we tasted at Del Posto? The wine thing that we tasted to post. What? Mosquito. called a mosquito? Anyway, so that's an Argon purge system. Now you don't want to have to keep wasting argon, right? So you like lightly pressurize something with it in like an opaque kind of bottle. And you could probably jerry rig it so that you could get oil out whenever you want it and just pressurize it every once in a while.
+
+[41:13] because the argon's expensive in that system, right? But that would work. Anyway, so the misto kind of works, but there's nothing, there's nothing out there. Well, anyway, try what you said. Tell me whether it's awesome and how many charges you go through, right? I mean, it seems like you know, it seems like you want to run the experiment anyway. So just tell us how it works, right, stars? That's what you say to everyone. Like, just do the experiment. Tell how it works. Now, finally, because we're coming in. I have one more I got to get before it. Okay. I didn't get the answer yet, by the way, Jack, from the bar on the stabilizing piña coladas. Anastasia, did you want to ask me about your kitchen before we go? No, go out to other people. They can ask you any time. Oh, see? That's true. No, that's true. I mean, I hope you do. Here's the thing. Okay, now. Okay, so Ellie wrote in a question, but is it Ely? Because they said it's pronounced capital E Lee. But is that E or E? E, E, E, E, E, E. Like the coffee people, but spelled like, anyway. So wrote in. Congrats again on the James Beard. Thank you Did I already do this? I didn't do the corn and oil, did I? Did I do this? We talked about it briefly. Speaking of cocktails, I made 2 corn and oil cocktails. Uh, black strap, uh, rum, falernum, uh, lime juice. I love those things. I measured everything both times. 2 ounces of rum. Uh, 3 quarters ounce, lime juice, 3 quarters ounce, falerinum, pinch salt. So I drank the 1st and about 30 minutes later, made the 2nd one and drank that one too. The 2nd one tasted much more tart than the first. The only difference I could think of is that the limes I used in the 2nd drink were fresher. The 1st limes were from an older purchase and slightly less juicy. Any evidence that choose from fresher limes is more tart than that from older
+
+[42:58] limes, or is this just a coincidence maybe? Best Ely. Huh. I don't know. I've never I've never I never noticed that. I mean, if I, in general, I have found that sometimes, uh, the juice from older, crappier limes is crappier, um, maybe it's because there's more, um, pith in
+
+[43:21] it. But also, you know how when you cut into a lime and it's kind of brown on the
+
+[43:26] inside, and like, you know what I'm talking about, Styles? kind of brown and crappy on the inside. I find that sometimes the juice from those limes doesn't taste as good. But I don't know how kind of crappy the lines. I don't know if it's tart or not or whether it's just kind of less overall everything. I don't know. But I should, we should run experiment. I mean, I'm sure the bar has limes that are sitting around for a long time. I have had people pick up off flavors, though, in poorly made lines. It could just be that you were one drink less sober. Right? Or slightly, slightly less measured, right? That's another possibility. Uh, and, um, anyway. He also says, I'll end by, um, oh, now this
+
+[44:10] is a separate question. I'm missing, I'm missing. I think something happened with my with my version where it got all chopped up. Anyway, I'm going to read now, uh, from another Vegetti, uh, another Vegetti, Colin, because we've had a, we should have a new thing called the Vegetti Chronicles. Spinoff show. Yeah, or the Vegetti monologues, where we talk about like all the people that writing questions and things about Vegetties. Hey, Hammer, Dave and Jackie Molecules. After following the Vegeti Chronicle Chronicles of the past few weeks, I thought I'd send you my thoughts on spiralized vegetables. So I don't have a veggetti. I do have a, we talked about some of this last week. We didn't get it to finish it, right? Jack, we didn't get to finish it, right? Okay. I do have a paderno spiralizer. Sounds like a coach, right? Wasn't that a coach? That's paterno. Not not Paderno. Paterno. Spiralizer, yes. Which, by the way, those wins were reinstated, right? It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like that person never shot him, right? It's all over. he didn't get shot. Like, he didn't, didn't pen. he was Penn State, right? Didn't they give those wins back? They like punished for a while and then they gave the wins back so it's like nothing happened. They got off scuffery, whatever. I'm not going to get I'm not going to get into sports ethics here because I don't know anything about it. I do have a poderno spiralizer, which seems like a more robust and flexible machine. It's also bulkier. I'm not going to start. But the larger size allows you to make ribbons and spirals out of larger, harder vegetables like beets or jicama, which are too girthy to stick in your
+
+[45:43] veggetti. I'm reading this directly, people. I am not, I'm not editorializing. Spiralized zucchini noodles are infinitely more satisfying than similar noodles cut on a mandolin. The texture is better, the shape is better, and they blow, they blow spaghetti squash out of the water, though they can get soggy or
+
+[46:02] greasy if you cook them for too long. A one minute sauté in a hot pan does the trick. Butternut squash noodles are also delicious when tossed with some brown butter and sage, as proof of concept. I attached a couple photos of spiralized dishes I've made. I don't have those photos. The 1st is zucchini noodles with shrimp and pistachio pesto recipe from modernist cuisine at home. Wait, they were actually spiralizing. They were using a vejetty and minus cuisine at home. I gotta go check it out. The 2nd is pot roast, served over a bed of potato, butternut squash,
+
+[46:31] turnip, and parslip noodles. Great results all around. I'm still trying to work out a good technique for making ultra crispy curly fries with
+
+[46:38] it. All in all, it's worthy of the 30 bucks if you have the space for it, especially if you're looking to avoid pasta, eat more
+
+[46:44] plants or just manipulate vegetables in a new and interesting way. Uh, and I'll end by suggesting anyone interested in these tools should check out the blog
+
+[46:52] inspiralized, inspiralized.com, which is the best online source for spiralizing techniques,
+
+[47:01] tips, and recipes. All the best, Brandenburg in Chicago. Uh, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. I don't know. Spiralized Inspiralized.com. Didn't Becker just write a cookbook on spiralized vegetables or using, he's into spiralizing. Franklin Becker. Yeah, I don't know. Look, I just can't I can't make myself get all jazzed. What about you guys? Spiralized. I think it's maybe me, though. I have the Vegetti at home, right? And so, I mean, maybe I should, do you think I should get? I have also, like I said before, I think I said this last week, I have this straight blade version of the Poderno spiralizer that I used to make those potatoes for pizzas. Remember, because we were talking about it and Jack said he doesn't have, someone in this studio said that they didn't have potatoes on their pizza. Oh, you weren't here, Styles. why you don't know. No, I was here. You came late. Yeah, it was Peter who said he didn't eat potatoes on his pizza and made us feel like jerks for not having had it. And then you said you didn't like it, but you took it back when I asked you about Sullivan's, which is delicious. Anyway. All right. I can't, I can't, I was going to say some other stuff, but I can't get past the Vegeti in my head. So we might have to wrap it up because it's actually we're going to end on time because we started on time. How do you like that? Well, maybe we'll start at Jack, what do you think about that? It's great. All right. Well, thanks you guys for coming in. Hopefully you had a good time in the studio today, and we'll see you guys next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[48:41] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member. visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Ages. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Users, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Bushwick, Brooklyn, at Roberta's Pizzeria, almost every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Not joined in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, no fault of her own. You don't have any weepy sad track on your thing, Jack? Let's see Wow. I got that. That's not like, oh, you're sad she's here. on her. It's really not her fault. No, like on the airline, maybe? On yeah, Turkish, yeah, on Turkish, yeah. She got delayed coming back from Istanbul. For some reason, her flight from Greece was connected through Istanbul. No one told those folks that that's the wrong way. That's the wrong way to get back to America to fly to Turkey by Greece. Uh, which is a shame because we, I wanted to, should I wait, Jack, for next time to talk about uh, grease trip? Yeah I think so. I actually made it to Turkey for a day because I was on the same flight, but yeah, but I came back a day early so that I could hang out in Istanbul for a day. Really cool food in Turkey. Really, did you know that Turkish cheese is really interesting, Jack? No, why? I don't I mean, I just hadn't expected it. They have this, um, I need to look up the translations because I, you know, I don't speak any, uh, you know, I don't speak anything other really than English
+
+[1:49] in a smattering of German, and, you know, enough French to get me by in the kitchen, but, uh, I guess the same
+
+[1:54] Spanish. Just enough to like, just kitchen. Anyway, the point is, they have this like crazy string cheese thing, but it tastes like beer
+
+[2:03] almost, like it's yellow. They have like a white string cheese. It tastes fairly neutral, and then they have a yellow string cheese. It tastes kind of like fermented, yeasty, beer kind of a situation. They have a sheep's milk cheese that's aged, you get ready for it. Aged in a goat skin. What? Yeah. They have a, I'll say it again. They have a sheep's milk cheese aged in a goat's skin. Good, very good. It has some like incredibly light, like buttery cheese. They have some really, really good cheeses. Also, had some really, do you know that they had some very good cured fish in Turkey? Did you know this? I did not know that either. We'll talk about it later. They have this... I forgot the name. Oh, La Cerda is the name of it. It's this Bonito that comes through the Bosporus that they catch. And then they salt, they like salt it and lightly brine and serve it raw. It's like the most velvet with onions. It's like the most velvety textured fish like ever. It's awesome. Anyway, so big surprise. I didn't even get to go to any. I was in Turkey. I had this selepton derma. you familiar with that Jack? They stretchy ice cream. Yeah. Well, that's the 1st time I've had it actually there, you know, proper, which is nice. Um, and, you know, you can bring it home. It's not quite the same. They're lying. They say that it's going to be the same. It's not quite the same when you bring it home. I think it needs to be manipulated a little bit. didn't have quite the bite because I paid some ungodly amount of money to, do you also know that you can bring dry ice on an airplane as long as nobody asks
+
+[3:24] you? Yeah, sure. You bring a lot of stuff as long as nobody asks you. Well, I mean, they sold it to me on the airplane. Oh, okay. And it's actually when I got home at JFK. is the 1st time I've ever been able to actually rationally talk somebody at customs out
+
+[3:40] of anything. They're like, well, you can't bring that in because it's, it's, you know, it's not cheese, so it's not fermented. and, you know, may contain eggs. And I said, well, you know, it's cooked. And he's, and the straight-faced guy looks at me. when I make ice cream at home, it's not cooked. Really, he said this to me. I was like, we're going to get this conversation. I said, okay. I said, well, I said, I said there's 2 basic kinds of ice cream that we eat here in America. You got your Philly style ice cream. which is does not have egg yolks, typically, and is not cooked. And I was like, this is probably what you making at home. This is a briar style of ice cream. I said, the other and more typical kind of ice cream is something familiar to more like a
+
+[4:17] Hagen Daz or a Ben and Jerry, which contains egg yolks, and it's, in fact, cooked and patrized before it's, before it's made. I said, this, I said, this particular ice cream that I'm bringing home from Turkey, not only was it sold at the airport for transport into into foreign countries,
+
+[4:30] but contains a powder from an orchid that must be cooked in order for it to work. So I can guarantee that this ice cream has been cooked up to temperatures that are
+
+[4:41] going to kill anything that's in it. You know what the guy said? Okay. Okay. Sure. Yeah, sure. All right. I mean you seem to know what's going on. That didn't save me the last time I tried to bring something through. Yeah, what was that? You got stopped last time. Well, that was different. So customs, right? Customs job, I mean, I guess they're supposed to ensure the safety. They have a couple things, right? They're supposed to ensure that you're not breaking the law. like you're not bringing in rhino horn or anything like that, right? They're also supposed to ensure that you're not going to bring any deadly new pathogens in.
+
+[5:10] Like, you're not going to bring the next, oh, I don't know, Asian longhorn beetle or something like this, right? Or chestnut blight or citrus greening. You're not going to bring in the neck. By the way, speaking of blight, you have been hearing about the bird flu? Oh, just a little bit. Tell me more. 40, 40000000 birds so far. slot killed here in the U.S. with the birth of price of eggs going through the roof. price of eggs, which, you know, no one ever talks about. Everyone says, you know, talk about the price of eggs, like that's like the, you know, the standard, like, what's the bull crap, the price of eggs? right? Price of eggs actually now an interesting subject. For the 1st time in who knows how long? Yeah. So, uh, usually this bird flu hasn't struck kind of commercial, uh, uh, you know, hatcheries, not hatcheries, what's the
+
+[5:58] word, like egg production things. Um, this time, yeah, 4000000 birds. I mean, we have a lot more than 40000000 birds, but the price of eggs has gone, gone, gone way up. Now, I was reading recently that they think they're going to get it under control by September, but that's
+
+[6:12] still, that's pretty far away, you know? Summer away. Yeah, although I was also reading, luckily, that this virus doesn't like it when it's hot out. much like me. It doesn't like it when it's hot out. And so the prevalence is probably going to go down over the summer. We'll see. And how did I get on that? Oh yeah, customs. So the other guy was when they I had all these powders that I had labeled, right? So, you know, I had citric acid powder, malic acid powder, all this stuff labeled. Guy comes up to me and says, uh, they didn't identify it, so they called
+
+[6:41] an explosive expert who has this like little doodad that can actually detect kind of what products you have with you, and it was able to pick up the malic acid and the citric acid, uh,
+
+[6:51] and, uh, I think one other. Tartaric acid. And it's like, yeah, that's exactly what he said. couldn't pick up. First of all, this guy is like super, super suspicious types. You ever meet these guys who like goes through their whole life super suspicious all the time. I understand it's their that's their job because they're trying to catch people who are doing bad things. You know what I mean? But, you know, in general, you know, who the hell wants to be like that? They walk through life treating everyone like they're a potential threat, realize it's his job. anyway. So he says to me, you know, acids, and then he couldn't identify 2 acids that I had, right? He couldn't identify lactic acid. I don't know why. And he couldn't identify Agar Agar powder, which is a seaweed powder. Obviously he can't identify it. It's a huge, like, you know, polymer, right? You know, sugar polymer, you know, a polysaccharide. Of course, you can identify. How the hell are you going to be able to identify that? So I said, I said, well, I said, okay, I don't understand this because half the stuff on my body you can't identify, but whatever. You know what I mean? Like, you can't identify a block of wood either, because it also can't identify cellulose, because it's a large chain powder. But okay. And it has something wood that you're letting bring through that you can't identify. But sure. And the other things that I label were the things I label. He goes, well. And he goes, well, you have to throw all of it out. I was like, all of it. But you were able to identify these things. He like, well, but I couldn't identify these, so I have to throw out everything that I couldn't identify. And the guy was just a freak, a freak. You know what I mean? It's like, how, because, because I was like, you know, look at, and he says, he looks at me straight faced, he says, acids can be used as oxidizers and explosive reactions. I was like, I can be used as an oxidizer in a freaking explosive reaction. Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, where on your little computer database did they say citric acid should be regulated because of its potential use in explosives? And if so, where's all the other stuff that I'm going to combine with the citric acid to make
+
+[8:37] into a bomb? But you can't even say those words in an airport. You know what I mean? Or you'll get you'll get instantly instantly annihilated. And the guy said to me, he goes, you have 2 choices. Surrender all of this or I'll just turn you over to the Port Authority police. I was like, turn me over to the Port Authority Police for what? For what did I do that I need to be turned over to the police? So, you know, typically you can't reason with, that's like the last time I tried to bring
+
+[8:57] Medler jelly in to from England. And the lady goes, um, you can't bring that meddler, Jellian. It's a liquid. I said, oh, it is, huh? And I unscrewed I unscrewed the lid of the meddler jelly and turned it upside down and held it there for like 30
+
+[9:11] seconds. Of course, nothing came out because in fact, it's a solid. And she's like, well, it can be melted into a liquid. And I pulled out a piece of plastic and I said, this can be melted into a liquid. Furthermore, I could be melted into a liquid. And she's like, and she's like, well, we have to let you on the airplane. We don't have to let the jelly on the airplane. I was like, you are bad human being. You're just a poor quality person. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know, because it doesn't make any sense. Like, I can't make solid things that can light on fire or explosives, but like somehow meddler, whatever. I dont even want to get into it. I already did. You did. I did. I didn't want to get into it but I did. The rules are so nutty bags. You know what I mean? It's like, whatever. I'm on pro safety. I don't want anyone to think that I'm anti-safety. You are pro safety. And pro safety. As much as, you know, I got, I got, hold on a second. I do with the mic for one second. We're filming in here and so they, you know, moving around in our spacious studios. I actually did get 2 really boneheaded because I wasn't being safe injuries this
+
+[10:10] weekend, 2 separate ones. Two separate Memorial Day, stupid dad injuries. I hit my foot with an ax. Oh man. Yeah. Which was entirely my fault. I hit a punky piece of wood and it glanced the wrong way and guess what I was wearing on my feet instead of safety boots. Freaking sneakers. Oh, this wasn't sandals. Well, thanks for that, Jack. But yes, so I wasn't I wasn't, uh, you know, yes, I wasn't beach bum stupid, but I was incredibly
+
+[10:38] stupid. And the other one, installing an umbrella. You know, I hate umbrellas, right? You know that, Jack? did not know that. I hate umbrellas. They're ridiculous. I get poked. They're all, like, umbrellas are like the prime example of I'm important crap on you. You know what I mean? It's like they're all about poking other people in the face or getting out of a subway and standing there at the entrance while someone else is trying to get out, fiddling around with your
+
+[11:01] umbrella, or trying to walk into an entryway and poking somebody in the eye or dripping on someone's head under an overhang. Yeah, they're crap. you know, just deal with it. Wear a hat like I do. Get a raincoat. You know what I mean? It's like very few... a poncho. a lot. Yeah, poncho. There are many other, you know what? You're just as important as I am kind of situations to handle the rain, right? Don't get me started on parasols. What happened with the umbrella this weekend? Oh, well, this, you know, is a deck umbrella, which formerly I was for because I hate the sun. But, you know, this one aspire, you know, tried to try to kill them. But my fault, they walk up. like the umbrella's not fitting into its pole properly. I'm like, okay, let me turn this to it, rotate. So I rotate it. Took a big chunk out of my pinky. My fault. My fault. Stupid. So, I guess the point saying is that, is that it's the things that you don't think,
+
+[11:51] like you're going out and you're splitting a little bit of wood. you don't think you're going to get damaged. Of course, when I was a kid, I was severely injured splitting wood. I don't know what the heck is wrong with me. I should be thinking about it. You know what I mean? Or, you know, installing an umbrella. It's not it's not when you're using a chainsaw or like using a deep fryer that you get hurt because you're on your
+
+[12:06] toes. It's when you're doing something stupid. That's when you get tagged. know what I mean, Jack? Oh boy. Anyways, this does not have anything to do with cooking issues, so I should probably get off. Alvin, Alvin Schultz. you know, Alvin Schultz. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, good friend of the show. wrote in with another thing to add to our Vegetty monologues. He says, this is his quote. At cooking issues. Are you tired of getting things jammed up in your vegetti? And he goes, try this from the trusted folks at KitchenAid. KitchenAid now sells a spiralizer attachment for your KitchenAid, uh, for your KitchenAid. taking off, huh? It's more of an open air spiralizer, Jack, so you can't get anything kind of jammed into it. You know what I'm saying? do. Yeah. Because who's not tired of getting things jammed up in their veggetties? Um, Joe Hanley wrote in, hey, Dave, what's the best way to defrost hard frozen backpack, steak, and chicken? Easy, water. And if you have a backpack, you probably also have a circulator. So the easiest way is to set your circulator at like 4 or 5 degrees
+
+[13:13] Celsius, and then just run it at 4 to 5 degrees Celsius, it'll keep heating the water and circulating it. That's the most gentle way. If you're going to cook it right away, you know, and you don't mind the fact that it's going to go into the, you know, danger zone for a little while, then you can jack it all the way to like 18 Celsius or something like
+
+[13:29] that, and it'll take it up, you know, even quicker. But yeah, a circulator in water is by far the best way to thaw a product that's been
+
+[13:36] backpacked. Like, ain't no question. You know what I mean, Jack? no question. You know what I'm saying? Can you think of a better way? Nope. No. You know what they used to sell for thawing things out? They used to sell large blocks of aluminum. You ever see those at the as seen on TV things? Actually, yes. Yeah, there are large blocks of aluminum with I think typically with fins on the other side, and it's a tip, but even that is not going to beat just, like, you know, sitting in a water bath, like circulating all the time. You know, just won't work. Just won't beat it. Anyways. Uh, okay. It's sad that Stas is not here, huh? We had to do it one other time. What was wrong with Stas the other time we couldn't do it. She was in California, maybe, on the phone? Oh yeah. She usually joins us by phone. Well, she can't because she's literally in transport. And that's like last week. I was spinning stuff in a centrifuge and couldn't do it. And someone's going to ask a question later. Hopefully I get to it about like centrifuge, so we'll get to that later if we're going. Simeon Priest wrote in and basically just said that they like the book and they like the show. Well, thanks. It's a very long. I don't like reading long, long praiseful things, so I'm not going to read it, but thanks. anyway. Uh, oh, and he says, uh, my wife and I will be traveling to NYC next week for a short vacation celebrating the end of the
+
+[14:46] semester, and we'll most definitely be making Booker and Dax, one of our must sees. Can wait to get that 1st liquid nitro chilled glass in front of me. Well, thanks, and, you know, hopefully we'll see you there. By the way, Jack, did you know this? Istanbul, formerly Istanbul, I guess, formerly Constantinople, right? Familiar with this, from the, they might be giant song. Did you know that, for those of you that aren't from New York City, we have kind of an irritating habit of wherever we are, New
+
+[15:14] Yorkers, and, you know, back me up anyone, New Yorkers, right? Yeah, New Yorkers. When you say that you're going back to New York, you don't say I'm going back to New York City. You just say, I'm going back to the city. It's super irritating for other people because you could be in a city as large as yours. You're like, you could be in Mexico City, which is like much bigger than New York. You know what I mean? And you could say, 0 yeah, I'm going back to the city like tomorrow. And you're like, what city? Which one? And you're like, what? The, the. And it's like super irritating New York habit. But strangely, I looked up that Istanbul or Istanbul is roughly translated as a
+
+[15:49] variant just meaning the city. So they're the same way we are. They're like, they're the same thing. What, arrogant? I wasn't going to put it that way. Say extreme love of their city. Or that, or that, or that. Extreme, extreme love of their, of their city. I have a caller on the line by the way. Oh, caller, you were on the air. Hi, Dave, this is Justin from California. How you doing? Good. How are you? All right. A little sweaty, biked over, but all right. Also, inhale something on the street. It never fails. It never fails that when I'm biking, as soon as I go a little bit over the limit of what I can do, where I
+
+[16:24] was breathing through my nose, I breathe once through my mouth and I suck some sort of particle into my lungs and spend the rest of the bike ride hacking and wheezing all the way
+
+[16:31] over. Invariably. Anyway, go ahead. All right. So my cooking question. is uh, but I just got a centrifuge, the CR 412 uh, eBay. Nice. How much did you pay if you don't mind me? I paid about 400? Good deal. Good deal. Nice. With buckets. Good deal. It's 100% Oregon. At least from what I can tell, it sun is up to 48, 4500 RPM and it's working. beautiful. Um, the thing that I'm doing right now is I'm trying to disinfect the unit and, um, I put it through, uh, concentrated chlorine bath. Then I pressure cooked it. And I noticed that there, uh, when I poured out the concentrated, a lot of red or a purplish, uh, color, uh, was pouring out of the bucket.
+
+[17:25] And it seems like, um, if I take like a paper towel and I rub it on the inside of the cups. Um, there's like a purple-ish film. It's almost like the color rouge. Hmm. Very CSI. Huh. Well, that has not happened to any mine. Now, let's just make sure we're talking about these are black anodized aluminum buckets, yeah? Yeah. Okay. So there's some sort of like something busted in them once, obviously, and all the buckets or just some of the buckets. All the buckets. Do you know who had it before you had it, what they were doing with it? No, I don't. I was actually gonna call them sometime soon. or at least try and get in touch with them. I bought it from a thrift store, so. A thrift store? What the heck kind of thrift stores do you have? That unbelievable. It was on eBay and then I offered the person cash. since they're local and they just happen to be from a thrift store. It's like, hey, I'm gonna pick up some old t-shirts, an army jacket, a belt, and a centrifuge. It's crazy. Thrift store. Uh, yeah, and there's no tags on it. Like from like who repaired it before or anything like that? No. I mean, it looks like it's in good condition. Yeah, that's super interesting. I don't know what the red is. Look, don't use anything highly abrasive on the inside, but get a Scotch bright, wear gloves. Scrub it and see whether you can get that stuff to stop coming off. You've killed. With the pressure cooking and the bleach. You've killed pretty much every bio agent that I can think of, uh, Well, bleach do preons. I don't know, and you're soaking it and scrubbing it, but I would make sure that you get all of that, all of the gunk out of it. Can you see the gunk when you're just looking at it? Yeah, it's a, it's like a, kind of like a powder, pottery. It's like really stuck on there, but it's kind of like a pottery, uh, sheen that you
+
+[19:21] see, if you put it up to the light. You can see like a purple haze. And purple haze, nice. strong. Uh, now I got that song going through my head. ruined me for the whole day. The, um, you know, some of the old Joans used to have, uh, uh, or they still
+
+[19:37] do, uh, plastic inserts that go into those buckets to hold test
+
+[19:42] tubes. And I wonder whether it's just like years of like that powdered of powdering those things up. Like, does it look like it could be plastic dust or it looks like a liquid, like it makes the whole liquid that
+
+[19:52] color. Uh... Not sure. If it could be dust. I don't know. I would just take a scotch bright, okay? And just like gently scotch bright it, see whether you can get that stuff off. Use a mild detergent, like one that's meant to go onto aluminum. I mean, I obviously don't dishwash these things because the dishwasher detergent will eat the
+
+[20:14] aluminum, the same way that they'll eat in aluminum pot. You don't want to weaken the surface. But see whether you can get that off and then, you know, a couple more good bleach soaks. The pressure cooking will kill anything bio with the exception of, like I say, preons. But scrubbing and uh, uh, scrubbing and um, uh, and maybe an extra bleef because the problem is also, you want to make sure that there wasn't anything hiding out underneath the gunk that the bleach couldn't get to the 1st time around.
+
+[20:43] So once it's clean, you want to go with one last kind of bleacherama. There wasn't this red gunk or purple gunk around the inside of the stainless containment vessel, was there? Yeah, okay. So if that's if that's clean, like, you know, 11 good, uh, couple good bleachings on that propped open and let dry should, uh, should get you going. But yeah, I would get the gunk off because who knows what it is, especially. It's less of a concern if you're going to spin in buckets, but I usually spin, I mean,
+
+[21:10] in, uh, sorry, in bottles in the buckets, but I usually spin directly in, um, the buckets, but you have to be super, super happy with the cleanliness of the
+
+[21:19] buckets if you're going to do that.
+
+[21:24] Yeah, but all in all, great find. Let's know what happened. Refrigeration still works. She said it was a CR, right? You said it was a refrigerated unit, right? You said CR? Yeah, is the fridge still work? Yes. Okay, here's let me, there's a couple pointers. anyone that has this, has this kind of centrifuge out there. Here's what typically goes wrong with it. It's going to stop spinning as quickly. It's because you probably need to replace the brushes. Make sure that you take like a non-gunking eraser or something and clean off the copper on the rotor on the on the on the motor before you put the brushes back in or you'll probably eat the brushes down again. You can get the brushes for a couple of bucks. Ozark biomedical stocks them, and you can get them also from, I think, Granger, if you happen to know the size. The other, um, maybe even McMaster. I'm not sure. I've had on those things, the brake units go on me and you can just clip them and not have the brake anymore, although it's nice having the brake. Sometimes the solenoids for the lids go wonky, but you can just take off the front, make sure you put it back on before you do it and fix that. And I've had the refrigeration go on me a couple of times. The actual controller for it, not the refrigerant, in which case you can put a separate controller on it or just put the refrigeration on manual. But they're good solid units should work for a good long time. Great. Great. Well, thank you. All right, thanks. Good luck with it. Hey, Jack, should we take a commercial break? Yeah, why don't I just read this text from Stas first? Just got out of airport. Hate everyone. That's like, like, except for the airport. That's every day. That's it, that's it. coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[23:05] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Market, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them, and
+
+[23:44] Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[23:53] system and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[24:02] chops, is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[24:07] humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. And we are back. You know what I didn't noticed before, Jack? Steve Jenkins calling off fairway a little bit. He's like, you're not going to find this at the fairway butcher counter. Whoa. Yeah, whoa. Whoa. Calling him out. Now that's what makes an ad effective, though. Yeah, when someone's like, hey, you know what? You know, like, you know, Fairway, like the place that I put on the cheese map. Remember them? They don't have this stuff. Shame on them. Big callout. Have you noticed that before? Yeah, I did. Powerful stuff. Heritage Foods USA, the only place to get it. Yeah. Wow. The only place. I like the way he says red wattle. The way he says Navajo. Navajo. I know, well, we talked about when I tested all of the, um, all the
+
+[25:04] lamb, not all of them, but I tested like 4 or 5 lamb breeds for the Easter. We talked about that, right? Yeah. Delicious. Oh yeah. Delicious. In the tandor, world's greatest cooking. Well, my favorite current cooking implement. I'm like, look, some point I'm going to have to do a big study on, on,
+
+[25:20] like different kind of cooking implements for, like, different, like, I'm going to have to do a lot of work. It's gonna take. Maybe I should write that in my next book. You know, I still haven't figured out what my next book's gonna be about, Jack. Really? Yeah, I got to figure out my next book. should crowdsource that. speaking of which, I have a caller on the line. Oh, really? Oh, call or you were on the air. Yes, I know you're great. great love of cured meat products, and I have, I wanted to hear your personal, just what your personal opinion would be,
+
+[25:45] such a convoluted argument between nitrates and
+
+[25:50] nitrate and whether or not we should eat them in our cured products because carcinogenic, what have you? Um, there's a ton of stuff out there that doesn't have that, but they have to up the celery,
+
+[26:01] whatever, to get it to those levels. Do you have any issues or seeing nitrates or nitrates or state? Oh, yeah, they're safe. I just want to hear your opinion. They're safe. Yeah, they're safe. Look, the fact of the matter is, is that all the stuff that's labeled uncured with big old quotes that you get at the Whole Foods, some of which I enjoy, like, like, uh, Nyman
+
+[26:19] Ranch bacon. I enjoy it. I purchase it. Mainly because, uh, you know, uh, I like the way that they, um, source the, and, you know, have the pigs, pigs
+
+[26:28] race. That's mainly why I buy it. I think that the, um, the nitrates,
+
+[26:33] uh, uh, and nitrates um, argument is complete bunk. First of all, if you're getting, if the bacon is pink, right? If it's pink and stays pink when you cooked it, i.e. i.e. if it is bacon, right, it has nitrites in it. So then the question is, where are you getting the nitrites from, right? Are you getting it from actually the sourcing nitrates or are you taking celery or some other green thing that is
+
+[27:02] like just soaking up a bunch of it from the ground and then concentrating it from that form to add it? Either way, same effect. Same, same product, really? same effect. It's just hocus pocus. It's more, it's more BS on the label of, on the level
+
+[27:18] of, uh, saying that a flavor is all natural just because they haven't synthetically created a new compound where there wasn't
+
+[27:25] another. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you're dealing with functional equivalents, both as far as the meat is concerned and as far as your body is concerned. And, you know, the nitrites are there to provide cured taste, cured color, and to prevent botulism, frankly,
+
+[27:46] you know, and, um, you know, so bacon is one thing because it's cooked at high levels. So the argument in bacon is one of against, you know, nitrosamines, right? whatever. I don't know what the current state of causing cancer with nitrosa means it is. I really don't. But, uh, like I said, if it's pink and if it's bacon, then it's got that stuff in it
+
+[28:07] anyway, and I don't care how it got in there. And furthermore, if you, I don't, I don't think that there's, you know, any research that I think is decent that shows that there's a high enough level of worry
+
+[28:16] in eating. Because frankly, you're not you're not your great grandpa or great great grandpa going off to the California gold rush in the
+
+[28:25] 1840s. And the only thing you can freaking survive on is dried cured meats because that's all you can carry in your backpack, right? I mean, I'm presuming that's not the light view lead, which means that, you know, the vast majority of your food intake is not
+
+[28:38] from cured meats. And so you're eating a relatively small, especially because as opposed to your great great grandpa, all this stuff is fairly highly titrated now. So they're not adding a boton extra of this stuff than they used to. In fact, we're using for everything except for country hams, you're using nitrites instead of nitrates. The nitrites dissipate even more quickly using in smaller amounts. So, really, your overall risk level, even if there is a risk, your overall risk level is relatively low, and I would
+
+[29:08] say, don't worry about it, especially if you're eating a lot of cured meats that don't require a lot of cooking, like or any
+
+[29:15] cooking, for that matter, like salumi or whatnot. But it's one of those things that I think is really overblown and the whole uncured pink stuff with the celery really just gets
+
+[29:24] me. It gets me ticked off because the problem with it, I think,
+
+[29:29] is that consumers believe that they're getting something that they're not. Consumers believe that they're somehow buying health and they're not. You know what I mean? They're just, they're just paying extra for someone to have to jump through a hoop to get a label that looks friendly for the exact same
+
+[29:42] result. You know what I mean? And that is irritant to me. Yeah, it's interesting for me as well. Yeah. I hope that helped. Oh, that was a fantastic summary. Yeah, my grandpa would be way more sodium than I do. Of course they do. Because he did all that stuff. Because they didn't have a fridge. You know what I mean? exactly. Or my great, my grandfather had, my great grandfather didn't have one. You know what I mean? So but it's like, I don't know. And, you know, luckily, I think we're coming off of these things go in waves. Like, like particular hatred for any, uh, any one of our normal food stuff comes in waves. And I think hopefully the anti-salt wave is crested and crashed and we're, you know, back into reality, although you never know. Big food companies still spend a lot of time and energy, um, trying to reduce, uh, reduced sodium for, for one
+
+[30:29] or some reasons valid, some reasons not not valid. But, um, Well, isn't it the same thing like with, with, you know, salt products, because they get all these, like, high pollutants, supposed to be better for you, salt products, and it's still, still the sodium compound, is the sodium
+
+[30:43] compound, minus whatever minerals or whatever else they want to treat it or harvest it with. Correct. Soodium comes out. That is correct. Now, there are, so the, so the things that they can do. So let's say there are people, right, who are sensitive to salt and should cut down their salt because they're prone to have blood pressure spikes as a result of salt intake,
+
+[31:06] right? People are right. Okay. And so what they can do, like milligram per
+
+[31:12] milligram, salt is going to affect your body the same way no matter how, no matter what. I don't care. You know what I mean? If it's harvested by Tibetan monks in, you know, in the Himalayas, whatever. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean? version of Tibetan Monk. Yeah, exactly. Well, exactly. You know, although Tibetans, interestingly, Buddhists still eat meat, right? Because you have to at those high altitudes, right? You need the fat. So these guys are still eating yak and whatnot, plus yak, whatever. But there's a whole separate discussion. What I'm saying is the salt is the salt. However, there are people that can engineer salt delivery systems and salt to make the equivalent amount of salt taste saltier to you
+
+[31:50] by altering the way, for instance, on a potato chip, which is a dry salt application. They can form salt into shapes like spheres that taste saltier for a given level of salt just
+
+[32:05] because, because a lot of the salt that you eat, you like you might not even ever taste. You know what I mean? It might just go into your body without it actually hitting your tongue in a way that you can taste it. So they can they can do things like that. They can add also other things to augment your perception of saltiness in the food
+
+[32:20] without there being salt in there. They can also add, so salt, aside from being salty. Clearly, increases your perception of other flavors. It's a flavor. It's not just its own taste, tasting on the tongue. It's an enhancer of other tastes and flavors. So they have other things that can do that that are not salt,
+
+[32:41] right? Um, you know, they can boost, for instance, um, savory umami and get some of the similar kind of like flavor enhancing techniques you can with salt. So there are things they can do. Um, to alter the salt in there that aren't kind of hokum. I think that, look, all, what's hilarious about this is, is that most people who are anti-salt
+
+[33:01] are anti- or anti-nitrites are somehow anti-processed, anti-processed foods, right? But what they don't understand is that the amount of processing that actually goes into creating products that are lower in
+
+[33:14] that, but are still package goods is higher than if they had just used the normal crap to begin with.
+
+[33:20] know what I mean? Yeah, to get the amount of celery you have to have to perform that same ability that a regular nitrite would
+
+[33:28] do would be, it's a lot. Yeah, I don't even know what the concentration levels are or how the exact kind of process is, but it's it's just one of those things that people, uh, they believe, you know, they, they just want, they want to believe something, and, you know,
+
+[33:41] yeah, whom, honestly, whatever you do next for a book would be a lot of fun to get some of those myths and write on
+
+[33:50] them, would be, I would enjoy reading. Well, there's a lot of books out now. They coming out now. It's a tough subject. In general, kind of like the psychology and the kind of science of what we eat in this realm
+
+[34:03] is, there's a lot of books being written from multiple sides. So like there's a book called the Dorito effect that just came out that has a, yeah, I mean, I have my issues with it. But yeah, I just, I just read it and, um, uh, you know, a couple of years ago there was a sugar fat salt, which I had a lot of problems with actually, because my,
+
+[34:22] my, I thought the basic tenet of that book was, they were like, food companies are trying to make their food as delicious as possible. Stop it. You know, which doesn't make sense to me. But the Dorito effect kind of picked up where that took off, right? And kind of the argument of that is showing, um, the argument of the book. It just came out, right, Jack? Yeah, did. Yeah. And the argument of that book is more that they're making stuff taste good, but that's messing with your biology because it doesn't have the nutrients that those tastes
+
+[34:51] would normally signify. Anyway, there's a lot of work on that side. The problem is a lot of the work that is kind of calling BS
+
+[35:00] on movements like the anti-salt movement or this or like the fake nitrites are written by people with a real axe to grind. And there's very, it's hard to kind of write something that hits in the middle road that doesn't piss everybody off. You know what I mean? Yeah, and they're always selling you the alternative when they grind the axe. Exactly. That's why they're grinding, yeah. Exactly. So, like, for instance, like, the genetic, the genetically modified, you know, the anti-GMO lobby. Let's just take that for for an example. Like, uh, now, look, from a scientific standpoint, uh, it's pretty damn clear that there
+
+[35:39] is that it's that there's no problems with it, right? And that in fact, people are pushing to regulate something that is much safer than other processes that they might wish to regulate first.
+
+[35:48] For instance, people are pushing for GMO labeling on GMO products,
+
+[35:52] but, and I'm not saying that, I don't want anyone to get mad at me, right? If you want, like, whatever you want, you want. This is fine. I'm just presenting kind of what I think, but there's the people who want GMO products labeled, maybe what they don't realize is that in a genetic modification,
+
+[36:09] you're putting a specific gene in to an organism, because you think that that gene will help do something, and it's a gene that has a known function in another organism, right? That's what we're talking about. Now, you know what doesn't ever need GM labeling or can be labeled as GMO free. Here's something that can be labeled GMO free. You take and you bombard seeds with high intensity radiation or mutagens, straight up mutagens. Now, I'm all for this too, by the way. I'm not against this. I'm just saying that the people who are anti-GMO, you'd think they'd be anti-this. You can bombard these things and cause spontaneous mutations that may do something you like. They may do something you hate. But here's one thing they are freaking unpredictable because they're spontaneous mutations due to mutagens and radiation. You grow these things and you get something that you like and you don't have to label it at all. You can label it organic and you can label it GMO free. Now, that makes no freaking sense. And it's not really what the the anti-GMO lobby wants. If you actually talk to the GMO anti-GMO lobby, which, you know, I have in various kind of in the MOFAD debates that we've done and over the years, what their argument actually really boils down to is their anti-big corporation.
+
+[37:23] But no one wants to ha- Yeah, no one wants to have that conversation, right? It's not really the genetic modification because if you're like, what about this genetically modified plant? They're like, well, that didn't work. Like, okay. Yeah, they're particularly against one large corporation, but that's part of the issue. Yeah, but you know, the thing is, is like, what we should do is we should just have the conversation about Monsanto
+
+[37:43] or, or, you know, whomever. There is a couple other ones, but we should just have that conversation. But for some reason, no one is willing to have very few people are willing to have, there
+
+[37:52] is, there are some, I forget the name of the author. I don't know why it went out of my head, but basically he wrote a book that said, you know what? The problem is, is that food is too important to have in the control of big corporations,
+
+[38:05] right? That's the tenet of the book. I was like, okay, finally, someone who's just being honest. This is that they're anti-big corporation controlling the food supply. But once someone makes that argument, well, then you can have a reasonable discussion about what the alternatives are. You're like, okay, are you really willing to abandon kind of like the system that we have now? what would the alternative be? That's a reasonable discussion versus the GMO, which does, it seems to me to be kind of a, uh, like you're trying to squat, Monsanto would still be in business if there was no genetic modification. Let's be clear on this. Monsanto would still be trying to run the seed trade in the
+
+[38:39] U.S. with or without genetic modification. Like we could talk about patent laws being problematic. There's all these things that can be talked about as being problematic, but very few people are having an honest discussion. And I don't know whether or not it's possible to write a book that deals with that or even partially deals with that without just falling into a flurry of crap from both sides to have access to grind, the
+
+[39:03] corporation, pro corporation side and the anti-corporation side. It's a kind of a weird space to be in. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's every documentary and blog post you read on the subject. It's just a torrent of crap, both sides. Right, right. So when you have a torrent of crap from both sides. Like, where's the market for the middle? And I don't know, because, you know, it takes a long time and a lot of energy to write a book. Well, there is no there is no market for the middle. That's not what sells. It's either the, you know, the cheaper where they're complaining about Gmail products to sell or the non-Gmail products that they can, you know, save
+
+[39:33] their, save their bodies like they would want to save their souls by ingesting holy foods. That's their mindset. Right. Any of the problem, the real problem is if you read, if you read books on either side, and even I'm saying the reasonable books on either
+
+[39:46] side. So, like, uh, take, uh, um, oh, I forget the one written by, uh, by the, uh, there's
+
+[39:53] written by a, a genetic, uh, uh, you know, a person who does genetic engineering and her husband who's a farmer, uh, organic farmer. interesting book, or Mendel in the kitchen, which is pro, uh, obviously pro, that was written by, uh, what's her name, Nita Federoff, you know, well-known, uh, uh, a GMO expert. Or if you read on the other side, any one of the number of books that everybody reads, you know, it's, you can see kernels of good arguments in both sides, not really so much on the hatred of GMO in
+
+[40:24] general. I really don't, I don't see the teeth in that, but, you know, but it's just, they always bring their BS baggage with them. You know what I mean? And that's the problem, but you're right. There's no market for the middle, at least not that I can see. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, I appreciate the lively lunchtime discussion. Oh, well thanks. Thanks for calling it. And I've got one more caller here. All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey Dave, good afternoon. I have a friend who really loves mimosas, and I was wondering if you had any kind of like interesting ideas for variations, like doing anything clarified or like
+
+[40:58] forced carbonating. Like, do you ever try to force carbon and white wine or kind of anything like that? Yes, okay. Uh, so you're crinkling you're crinkling up a little bit, but here's the problem with the mimosa. So your friend already likes mimosas, right? So here's the thing. You can't change the fact that they already like a mimosa. So a mimosa is lightly carbonated because the orange juice and it can't be carbonated that highly. right? Also, I mean, they're not making mimosas with actual champagne, right? Are they rich? Are these friends of yours rich? Not quite. Okay, so they're probably using cava Prosecco. I'm just guessing. Um, the easiest way to do this. Here's the other problem, though. Now, you can clarify, you can straight clarify orange juice, but if you straight clarify orange juice, Uh, it turns, uh, it tastes, and I always say this, even though I haven't had it in years, but it tastes like sunny D or tang. It no longer tastes like orange juice. It tastes like orange drink, right? Right, right. So what you're going to look for is more of an Orangina kind of carbonation level. And so with that, what I would do is I would just put your orange juice through the finest filter you can.
+
+[42:05] First of all, obviously, if you're going to fresh squeeze it, then put it through a fine
+
+[42:09] Shinois, and then if you can get it through a paper towel or something just to get rid of almost all the big particles, right? Chill it down hard, and then carbonate just the OJ,
+
+[42:21] and obviously if you're buying it, the supermarket, just buy a no pulp guy. Uh, and um, just carbonate it like, like 5 times. And what you're doing there is, so particles do 2 things. Particles in your in your juice are their own nucleation sites, right? Which is problematic. Also, the pectin in the OJ is, you know what? You probably could reduce the pectin by putting SPL and not clarifying it and still have the taste be right. Huh? That's an interesting idea. I've never tested that. Huh. Just thought of it. anyway. But so there's pectin in there, which is causing foamy, but also particles have air trapped on them. So you're not going to get away change the fact that the particles themselves are nucleation sites. But by carbonating like five, six, 7 times, you'll be blasting the air that's trapped on those particles off of
+
+[43:05] them and making it easier for you to get good carbonation. But then I would have a bottle of carbonated juice, and I would have your bottle of bubbly, separate, and I would pour them together. And this way, for those of you who don't want it to be emosified, it doesn't have to be mimosified, and you're not throwing away a bunch of bottles of bubbly at the end of the
+
+[43:24] day if you don't finish it all. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's cool. I'll give that a try. All right. And then some other things, if you can clarify, they are really good with champagne. In fact, I just did it in Greece and haven't done it in a long time, clarified strawberry juice and champagne. Then you carbonate the strawberry juice, clarify strawberry juice, tastes delicious, and carbonates well. You're probably going to have to add a little bit of extra sugar, depending on what time of the summer it is and what the bricks of your strawberries are when they come in.
+
+[43:50] Usually I like to take strawberry juice up to about 16 bricks somewhere around there.
+
+[43:56] And like sometimes they come in as low as like 12, but if you get them up like 16, 18, and then you do like
+
+[44:01] either a one to 3 or one to 4 with bubbly. It should be pretty good. awesome. Thanks so much. All right, give it a shot. Let us know how works. Thank you very much. All right, bye-bye. Okay. All right. Running out of time. Just a heads up. Just a heads up. Oh my god. Oh, geez, really? Yep. All right. So Uriel wrote about in about glycemic load. We going to have to get to that next week. Jim Guaniri wrote in about cocktails for a wedding for that he has to do for his sister. Now the question is, I don't have time to get into it now, Jim. Can it wait another week? Tweet us in, otherwise, I'll try to put some stuff over on Twitter. It doesn't like carbonating stuff. And also, I need, he kind of calls Nastasia out, so I need Nastasia here so I can call out, but let's make
+
+[44:46] sure, make sure we can go another week, have, you know, have him right in. Michael wrote this in. Hello, lovely people. I did some inside round in large ziploc freezer bags at 50 C, 56 Celsius, which is not that hot for 24 hours. The bags broke. Is that time temperature combo too much for ziplocs? Also, do you need a puffing gun to make puffed rice cakes, the white, light, airy, bland, dry, tasteless style of food item? Michael. Uh, one, um, they should not, that time temperature is not too much for the ziploc, not at all. Look, if they broke on the side seams. You have a faulty bag. If you, if make sure you're not using the one with a fake zipper pull thing. Make sure it's just a regular seal on top. The other one's always leaked, but if you had leakers in that or punctures, you got faulty ones, the ziploc freezers, which are the only ones that I
+
+[45:31] use should never fail like that. Shame on you, S.E. Johnson Wax, a family company. Um, who I think is a manufacturer. Russ Bryan wrote in, and he had some coffee roasting questions. And how do you get good coffee out of a popcorn popper? I'm not going to have the time to get into that, but go to sweetmarias.com, which is where I get my beans, and they have list after list of how to use a whirly pop, which is what I use. I assume you meant a whirly pop and not an air popper. Air poppers are totally different. But luckily, Sweet Maria's has good advice on both. They're going to give you much more detailed advice than I can give you. If you read that and you have more questions. Ask me specific questions on that and I'll get back to you. Franklin wrote in on puffing millet, I want to puff my own millet. Can I use a popcorn machine, assuming also you mean a whirly pop and not a an air popper because millet is too tiny to pop in
+
+[46:17] a, an air pop. just spray out all over your kitchen, be an embarrassment, like little babies all over the ground. Can I take it from dry? Can I do it without oil? Is there a machine that can purchase that it's not expensive that will do it perfect for me, frankly? Okay. Millet's a bunch of different there's a bunch of different kinds of millet, right? And I don't know whether millet will puff on its own. What you should do, just as a test, is take some of the millet you have,
+
+[46:39] don't try to do it dry right away, puff it in oil, like you would popcorn. You don't even need it. You can just do it in a pan with a lid on it and oil and see whether it pops.
+
+[46:48] If it pops, then you're good. If it doesn't pop, uh, then you can uh, cook it, uh, you know, cook it until
+
+[46:55] it lets soak it, then cook it, then dehydrate it slightly. If you dehydrate it too much, it won't pop. If you don't dehydrate enough, it'll pop. You just have to get a feel for it. Then you should be able to pop it either in hot air, microwave, or in
+
+[47:09] oil like popcorn, either way, but like, one of those should work. And get back to me and let me know if you need more information. Do I got another 30 seconds or so? Okay, Owen, wrote in. Huge fan without wasting any of your time. I'm curious before I buy. What are the advantages of a larger rotary evaporator, say 4 liters versus a smaller
+
+[47:27] one, say 2 liters. Also, what is an ideal centerfuse size to get for bartending applications is 750 milliliters? Okay. Oh, and I'm going to miss a question on Kaylee Bennett about Jell-O shots. I'll get that next time. Okay, Owen, here's here's what I'm going to say. Larger flask means you can put more in before it boils over. I would always get the 4 liter flask. Your biggest problem with a road of app is going to be the amount of product that you can put through it. That's going to be the biggest limitation when you have it. Now, every time you have to break open the machine to clean out the flask. You're looking at another 10 to 15 minutes of trying to get another product. So if you can get a 4 liter flask, you're going to be able to put a lot more into it than a 3 liter
+
+[48:04] flask and it's really going to increase your throughput. And in general, it's just the glass that you're changing out because the unit that can handle a 3 liter flask can also handle a 4 liter flask, right? Depending. It's not always the case, but especially if it's not that much more, the 4 liter flask is going to be a lot better. Also, get the largest neck on the flash that you can get and the vapor duct, the largest that you can get because it is a pain to clean that stuff out. On the centrifuge, 750 milliliters is marginal. If you're going to do bartending applications for large groups of people. It's fine if all you're ever going to do is lime juice and if you're only ever going to make like half a bottle of Hustino at a time. But for larger applications, you're going to want to get a 3 liter benchtop fuse with swinging buckets that can do
+
+[48:44] 4 the 4000 G's or so. Or if you can wait, I'm not saying that I'm working on something, but I might be working on
+
+[48:52] something, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c 3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] Heritage breed pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Atries. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:39] Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined again after her, you know, airplane nonsense last week, we have Anastasia Lopez, the
+
+[0:50] hammer back in the studio today. Hey, Stas. Hi. Hi. And special guest from you might know him from such things as running the website for popular science. Ball, Adam. What do you use? At, is that your Twitter? At po... No that's your... at popsi eats.com. I don't know because it's like I can recognize the picture. So I never have to like, yes. The cat. What? Isn't the cat knows? Is that your cat nose or someone else's cat nose? My cat knows. Yes, I tried using someone else's cat nose, but they gave me a cease and desist, so I had to use my own cat nose. I know that's... He's not lying. That's very Paul. By the way, for those of you that don't remember, Paul has been a guest on this show
+
+[1:36] before most recently for the hot girl tasting, right? Were you here for the hot roll tasting? Yes. Yes. And Paul and I both agree that, you were here for Hot Girl, right? What are you getting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that was the one that Don Lee, right? Yeah, yeah. The Rotten Shark. Yeah, wasn't that bad as the one that you loved in the park. This is Stronging. And we told the story about Sir Straming, for those of you that didn't hear that episode, is the it is the most hardcore thing I've ever eaten pretty much. pretty much. It turns out that when you eat Hawk Carl on the radio and then take the leftover Hawk Carl home and wait for 6 months and then reopen the canister, it gets stronger. So
+
+[2:14] Stronging strong? No, but it emptied a room. Well, and for those of you that don't remember, We talked about it, I think we originally had the tasting, and then also brought it up on a hawk girl tasting. Paul, you know, although he, you know, goes out to, I think the Catskills, right? Or something like this, you have a place in the Catskills or his family has a place somewhere outside of New York. They're using your family have a place? No, I wish. Well, anyway, he's a New York City, like born and bred kind of a guy. Upper West? Upper West. Upper West. I thought you used to. No, you have someone. I've rented places. that's what it is. renting. Anyways, brought the Sir Straming. Now, Sir Stramming, here's how you make Sir Stramming. You take yourself some herring, small ones. And you don't put enough salt on them to stop bacteria from growing. You stop some bacteria. Some, but you allow the salt loving bacteria. But then the fun thing is, you can it, right? Without pasteurizing it, right? So then the can inflates with noxious gases and you and you open it and it's rotten. I mean, it's quite literally rotten. Uh, you know, and, you know, I don't want to hear any cultural, like, oh, but it smells rotten. No, this stuff stinks. This stuff stinks. Anyway, Paul took it on a taxi ride home. Remember that? He took the leftover. We didn't even have like a vacuum sealer or even a cork container. He took an open can of sirstraming and its attendant, like, you know, uh, you know, retinue of flies with him in a cab. And the cab windows didn't open. And the cab windows didn't open. That's got to be the best cab ride ever. But it wasn't a cab to the Catskills. No, that was just about a mile. Now, yeah, but the question is, is, like, does someone try to get in right afterward? Did the cabby say anything? The cabbie did not say anything. But he kept looking at me. He probably thought it was just my personal smell. That would be pretty hardcore. If that was your personal smell. I mean, you're a corpse. Yes. And I was canned. Yeah, canned corpse. You know, my wife once met a guy and was like, this guy smells like he's rotting from the inside out. He died 2 days later. Look at Santa's little hipster today. Did you see him? Well, you know, look, you can't start making, like, Stas is not happy. By the way, who do we got over there in the engineering booth? We got Jack today. Howdy? Hey there. I was going to make a fake voice and say I was Santa's little hipster, but I didn't. Yeah, but you notice that Stas always has to have someone at Roberta's that she, that
+
+[4:48] she like, you know, grooves on there. I mean, Indy Jesus was awesome, aka Dante. Let me tell you something. Indie Jesus and Santa's little hipster, both really, really nice guys. I'm sure. I was gonna say that. Yeah, you know, Stas doesn't care about like someone as a person. That's not what she's about. That's true Appearances. That what's important. Appearances. So anyway, Paul was here because later on in the television program, we're going to be the tasty, they're dead. I don't want to hear any, like, entomologist, like rushing, you know, like, I'm going to destroy the ecosystem of New York City or anything like this. Some dead fancy ants from Mexico. I guess we'll do we'll do the ant tasting maybe after the commercial break, yeah? Sounds good. And we have some anti-gin and to get it. Get it, anti-gin, like antigin, but ant flavored gin. Oh no, I didn't get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's what it is. I was thinking like your aunt who drinks a lot of jam. Oh, well, yeah, no, when, uh, so, uh, Jonas from the
+
+[5:44] Norway Food Labs came and did the thing in Greece. And we'll talk about Greece maybe after the commercial break. We talk about the nerd tale. We gonna do that now? Nerds. All right, so, uh, I'm the only one that actually probably saw that. Can you do that again? Remember that show? Oh, yeah. Who was the what was the name of the guy who did that in Revenge of the Nerds? I remember not thinking that was funny because like that was my life. So whatever. Now look at now look at me. Nerd. Anyway, so we're shutting down the 54 Eldridge lab, and we have, and I've moved my lab to an undisclosed location in Connecticut. Um, bigger and better? Much bigger, better, man, it doesn't have air conditioning. It's a garage. Let's be honest about it. It's the garage. It's a garage. I notice you're selling an air conditioner in your nerd sale. Yeah. Well, Stas wants me to throw away everything and just buy new. I don't know where she thinks I'm getting the money from from the nerd sale. Yeah, no, she wants me to sell a microwave, which I'm not selling the microwave. She wants me to sell a microwave for like $5 to someone who's going to come pick it up on the street so that I could buy a new one for $80. No, I never said five dollars. So anyway, why don't you describe the nerd sales test? We're selling a bunch of really cool equipment. at the nerd sale at 54 Eldridge next Tuesday between 2 and 7
+
+[7:07] p.m. Cash and Carrie, cash only. We're not moving anything. That's about it. As they say in the auction business, as is where is. Yes. As is... where responsibility for what happens after it leaves. For instance, we have a, unless Peter, like, claims it beforehand. We have a the small Chinese puffing gun. It is inherently dangerous. It is being sold as an objet dart. It is not an object of art. Okay. Object. It's not. It is not a functional. I will never recommend that someone use it to puff grains. It is wholly and entirely unsafe. It is merely an object of admiration to have on
+
+[7:52] a little piece of serial history to have on your on your mantle. It is not to be used to puff Siri. Maybe more clear. Do not use it to puff cereal. Do not seal it and heat it, right? Is that pretty clear? It's very much like the ones that Chinese street puffers use. It is, in fact, that is not to be used. Yeah, it is not to be used. Right. Because I don't consider it safe, right? And this is not one of those nod, nod, nudge, nudge, wink, wink things. Like, I built an entire encasement unit so that I could use it, and it turned out to be very difficult to operate it in this encasement unit.
+
+[8:27] And I still felt nervous when I was using it. So I'm going to go ahead and say, don't use it. And the reason why I'm selling it, if I was comfortable using it, I would be using it all the
+
+[8:39] time. Yes, but because I am not comfortable using it, I am telling you not to
+
+[8:45] use it. Okay, so then we have a 3D printer. Oh, this 3D printer, its name is Bruce. State of the art. Its name is, it was like 6 years, 7 years ago. At least. It's a Z-Corp. Color-ish. printer. Yeah, the Z-Corp 450? Uh, yeah, but it's context brand. It's the one that was labeled as, um, anyway, it's never been, uh,
+
+[9:10] it never had, uh, fake stuff putting it. So, you know, it's never had, but Z-Corp, I don't think supports it directly anymore. It can be made to work. It's as is where it is. So you can see all this stuff at bookerandax.com slash nerd sale. We have a palette jack. We have a palette jack. We have a small set funnel. We have street razors. We have a Buchner funnel. Don't get the Buchner, but the subfunnel is useful. Yeah, I don't like Buuchners. But you can come by. People think they're useful. We have a small dishwasher, a life-size Santa. A life-size Santa, not just a life-size Santa, but a life-size Santa that was featured at a, that was designed by Nastasia and Piper to pump
+
+[9:54] out hot, uh, Christmas, uh, mulled wine, and it spews Christmas mulled wine out of its mouth into a bowl as though it's puking.
+
+[10:04] Now, you need to supply your own circulator to make it work, but it's still got the piping and the place in Santa's butt to load up
+
+[10:12] the mold wine, right? So you supply a circulator. Is the piping still there? Or no, like the flexible hose? I mean, it's easy to it's easy to re-rig it. But, you know, such famous people as Mario Batali have drunk, right? wasn't it? Was that a Del Posto or was that it was Lucky Peach? Lucky Pete. So like some, some, some Momafuku people and their like fancy folks all drank a holiday cheer out
+
+[10:38] of... from that was puking out of Santa's mouth. Does it come with the tape deck or is that gone? With the little gone. There used to be a voice recorder. and, you know, dirtbag friend of the show, Phil Bravo with the deep voice, had lots of pithy sayings that Santa would say about him puking up too
+
+[10:56] much, too much mole. too many cookies. And then he would be throwing up mulled wine. So that's in the sale. So if you go to the website, you can see photos and a list of things. Straight razors are sharp. Did I mention this? I don't know. Should we sell those? They're really sharp. I mean, they're straight razors. What are you using for in the lab? No, what happened is that, like, when we opened the lab, I took all of my tools out of my apartment, because it's unreasonable to have that many tools in my apartment, and I used to use straight razors. And then I picked that on my face. One of these used to be used on my face. The other ones I picked up at a, at a sale on the, on the, I think, I don't think they were my grandpa's. Otherwise, I wouldn't sell them. I think I picked them up at a sale. We have a carbonation rig that you built. No, no, no. We have an actual McCann carbonator. Carbonator, okay. Uh, which I think it might need one or 2 things tweaked on it, but it should it should work. We have a, yes, a roofing torch without the hose. We have a minute walk ice machine with a cold plate installed in it, by the way, so you can use it directly for cell serve. Now, there's a hole drilled in the side of it for the cold plate, which I consider a feature. Anytime I buy an ice machine. I immediately drill a hole in the side of the ice machine so that the cold plate will fit inside. If you buy this ice machine. Now I have one at home, which is why I didn't take it home. Uh, and mine has a hole drilled in the side of it. If you take this, I'll tell you this. I'll throw in the condensation pump. Boom. That's a steal. Boom. Minitawak. Manitta walk. under counter. ice. Nice. It's strong. It's very strong. It good. And an aluminum cold plate. Anyway, okay, enough on the nerd sale? Yeah, next Tuesday. There's a broken printer. There's a broken printer, lots of toner. There's a lots of toner and a broken printer that Nastasia melted one day because she was cold because it was a 1000000000 degrees below
+
+[12:48] zero. We had no heat, man. The thing is, is that Dave designed the layout of the lab. I did not, no, this is crap. Nastasia pushed the printer up against the heater and then flipped it on full blast. Whose desk was it under? Whose desk? On a desk. Okay. That's a layout. The layout. Give me that crap. I put it one place, you pushed it in. And melted it. whatever. It doesn't matter. It's melted. The end of the day, it's melting. It still works. It's an object dark. It's an update. Yeah, it's an object of Nastasia's distaste for electronic equipment. Uh, you know, and her ability to melt it. Anyways, enough on the on the nerds. Wait, we didn't tell them how to get to it, did we? No, no, Booker and Dax.com forward slash nerd sale one word. I'm putting an early bid on the broken printer. No bidding, all cash. Okay fine. voice come voice serve. Yeah, we're not holding items for anybody. Wow. Sucks. But how are people gonna, here's the problem. If's going to run like this, how do people know if they've missed it? Like, like, they could show up and someone already took the 3D printer. Well, that's what a yard sale is like. Let me tell you something. I'm gonna go ahead and recommend that if you buy the 3D printer, you might want to get the palette jack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what we got it for, right? Yeah, but somehow we didn't end up using it and we just threw the palette jacking to that room. We also had something else really had. Oh, did you, what's the story on the vac machine? Yes or no? I think, yes, I need to make sure. All right, we have a vacuum machine. Don't worry, Paul. The freeze dryer. We are still going to fix. That's up in Connecticut. You and I are going to fix it. Okay, good. All right. No, the vacuum machine is from Del Posto has sealed meats for the likes of Mark Ladner and Mario
+
+[14:26] Patale. Uh, but it currently has an issue. The vacuum pump has, I think, a seal in it that needs to be kind of fixed. And, you know what, Styles? I just never did it Anyway, enough on the nerd sale. So we have some questions in this one, I'm going to deal with last. Oh by the way, you can call in your questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, Kylie Bennett wrote in from um, Blackberry Farm. They sent us some stuff before. Nice people. Nice people. I'm interested in making Jell-O shots from scratch of the GNT,
+
+[15:00] Campari, et cetera variety. And I'd like to use bronze sheet gelatin. Is there a basic ratio you can provide or help otherwise? Uh, thanks, uh, kind of event. Okay. Are you a Jell-O shot aficionado, Paul? I don't think I've ever had one Come on, really? I've had Jell-O. And I've had shots. But you've never had a Jellified shot? Not really. No? All right. Well, here's the thing. If you're using leaf leaf gelatin, right? Uh, You're using bronze leaf gel. The interesting thing about leaf gelatin is that the weights of all the different grades of gelatin are different. Because the assumption is that a leaf should gel the same
+
+[15:41] amount, regardless of kind of what grade you use, but a leaf of bronze gelatin weighs a lot more than a leaf of like gold or platinum or silver gelatin.
+
+[15:50] Also, you can't go straight based on that, I mean, they're designed to kind of set the same, but I've only ever really
+
+[15:58] done, uh, gelled, uh, booze
+
+[16:02] style things. Like I used to, like years ago, we made I made a champagne jelly that I would carbonate in the bottle and super high PSI and then cut open after it chilled and they would have carbonation on the inside.
+
+[16:11] Yeah, it's kind of fun. But you have to choose kind of what texture you want. There is, in fact, and I forgot her name, but there's a literally a cookbook devoted to Jell-O shots, and I believe it has a
+
+[16:23] name like Jell-O shots or something like this. It came out in 2011, uh, and they, you know, they have, uh, and she has a website, the person who did
+
+[16:31] it, and they have a bunch of, uh, recipes there. Also, Kevin Lou from the Craft Cocktail book. He did a post on Sirius Eats about Jell-Oh. Unfortunately, he was using actual Jell-O. Knox, by the way, people knock, knocks because it's not some fancy sheet junk. It's actually an incredibly high, like strength quality gelatin. It's like it's like right in between kind of gold and platinum. It's like got a very, very high bloom strength, right? So it's actually... something like that. Yeah, 220s, I think. It in the 220s. But it, um, and here's something else I like a lot
+
+[17:06] about, uh, Knox, is that you can weigh it very easily so that, which is super easy to weigh because it's a powder. Whereas whenever you're using sheet gelatin. You have your best bet if you're going to use sheet gelatin. It's like, I guess why pros have not, not, don't have a lot of problem with it. You't need to weigh it because it's already there in sheet format. If your recipe calls for some integral number of sheets. But most of the time when I'm doing gelatin work. I don't know exactly how much liquid I'm going to have, uh, because, let's say, a, I'm trying to clarify strawberry juice back in the day back when I used to use gelatin to clarify.
+
+[17:40] And so I always hated having to snip pieces of the gelatin off to try to get it to work right. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's also a sense that sheet gelatin is more cool because pros use it, but in fact, sheet gelatin is made from powder. Is that true? Yes. Yeah, I don't particularly. I mean, I use I think sheet gelatin is sometimes easier to use because you can bloom
+
+[18:03] it, pick it up and throw it in, but powder gelatin is great for measuring. I mean, that's what I use. When I'm cooking, I use Knox brand powdered gelatin. I buy it in big cans and there you have it. But back when I was at the French culinary Institute, we stocked sheet gelatin and I used sheet gelatin and it was also good. But of course, we stocked the high end, the platinum. So it was very kind of close. Like the, the, um, the knocks and the platinum were pretty close weight for weight. so you could kind of substitute them back and forth because they had the same kind of a thing. So since you're using bronze. Uh, the, the Jell-O shot lady recommends uh, for a, a Jell-O shot that is firm enough to cut mold, stand on its own, and look crisp, i.e. of
+
+[18:47] very, kind of a hard jelly. She is a 2 packets of knocks, which is 14 grams of knocks to a 500 about ML recipe, 2 cups, right? total base, including the sugar, everything, right? 2 cups. Now, what does that translate in terms of sheet gelatin? Well, according to some people, like Monitor's pantry, they say about 3 sheets of gelatin equals a packet of knocks, but according to the Jell-O shot woman who tested it in Jell-O shot recipes, she used about
+
+[19:23] 3.5 . And that looks more accurate based on calculations I did, trying to do bloom strength and weight to Knox, kind of converting back and forth. I would say you're looking in the, you're looking in the 3.5 sheet per um, cup range.
+
+[19:38] Yeah. Does that sound good? Sounds right. Yeah. 3.5 sheets per cup in that area in that. Yeah. Range. 4 Jell-O shots. That's going to make a firm a jelly. All right. Yeah? Okay. Uh, and I forgot to set my phone to not turn off. Here we go. Okay, next question. Did I already answer last week, Jack, the Ziploc question? don't believe so. Okay. Hello, lovely people. I did some insight. I think I mentioned it. Michael had some problems with Ziploc's breaking. I think he just got a bad batch. Ziploc freezer bags. You ever had a problem with those breaking? Do you use those cook, Paul? I use them. Low temp? ever had a problem? Time and temperature. He's only cooking in the 50s of Celsius. And so it should last an infinite amount of time in the 50s of Celsius. You had a bad one. You had a bet. Off brand or Ziploc storage bags will fail at higher, low temperatures.
+
+[20:31] Yeah. Storage bags, I've had fail. Other brands I've had fail. Cisco, food safe, Cisco brand, like bags, fake ziplocs. I've had a, I had like 100% failure rate on those. They fail. Uh, but an actual ziploc, an actual branded ziploc freezer bag with the not with the fake slider on top, but a standard ziploc freezer bag. Very, very, very rarely fail very rarely. So, uh, you you got got a bad batch and you should go yell at somebody. But the 2nd question was, do you need a puffing gun to make puffed rice cakes? The white, light, airy, bland, tasteless style of food item. Well, you give such a such an enticing description of it, I can see why you want to make them, right? Um, The, when you're making those puffed rice cakes, they,
+
+[21:29] uh, they have a special machine for those things that decompresses inside of a
+
+[21:34] mold, and that's how they do it. However, you can look up on the internets. There are papers on how to do it in a microwave. What you do is, is you take cooked and then dehydrated starch. You then lightly missed it after it's, you have to cook it, overcook it, dehydrate it, right? Not totally, but to, I forget what the moisture content is, but you just end up knowing after a while. Actually, cooking issues, you can still look up the post. That one's not selling Cialis, I think, at this moment. So you can still look at them. Oh, really? side is totally clean. Oh, wow. It's no longer WordPress. Where am I going to buy my Cialis? I thought you stocked up. Oh yeah, yeah. So anyway, so you can go look at the puffing section, it'll tell you, it'll show you pictures and you can
+
+[22:16] get because, you know, even though I wrote it many years ago. It turns out puffing hasn't changed much. But if you take salted water and lightly, lightly missed the grains of dehydrated
+
+[22:28] grain and then toss them together and then put them inside of a mold and puff them in a microwave, you can get them to bond. This is a unknown thing. But your results may vary. Uh, Uriel wrote in on glycemic load. He goes, dear, Dave, Nastasi Jack, and anyone else that I may have forgotten unintentionally, like, for instance, you Paul. Yeah, you forgot Paul. You know? I have a question about glycemic indexes, retrograded starches and resistance starches. My wife is on a low glycemic index diet, and I am in charge of cooking. Illogi diet really isn't that bad with one notable exception, potatoes. Potatoes. Potatoes have a glycemic index of 80 to 100 depending on the method of preparation and a high glycemic load. This is very unfortunate because potatoes are delicious. Correct. are delicious. I find them to be delicious. I've read all sorts of conflicting information on the interweb saying that certain techniques can lower the GI of potatoes by converting the
+
+[23:24] Starstream resistance starches when you cool them and reheat them after cooking. Alternatively, some sites say that the glycemic load is lowered when serving potatoes with saturated fats, which makes no sense to me at all. I haven't been able to find an explanation of what's going on from a reputable source. Most sites that deal with nutrition read more like religion than science. I'm hoping that Dave might be able to explain what the deal is and whether I can make delicious stuff with potatoes without compromise my wife's diet. Thanks. Uriel, PS, does Nastasia like potatoes? Oh, nice. And when are you going to announce a new project slash Kickstarter, you tease something on the air, and then radio silence. I don't know, when does in August, right? It's not a Kickstarter. It's not, Stas is like, it will not be a Kickstarter, but we will announce the new thing. We have something we're going to announce before then, the cube. We've even talked about the cube, but that's not the next major project. I don't consider that next major project. And he's waiting for the enemy of quality t-shirt. I know. We're working on it. We're working on it. Okay. So here's the short answer. One, if, uh... You know the old, uh,
+
+[24:24] Joel Robuchon slash, uh, Wiley Dufrene, uh, Jeffrey Steingarten, Jeffrey
+
+[24:29] Steingarten brought it back, tech potato cooking technique? The super buttery one? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So that one, look, I would your, I don't know. This would have to be measured by a scientist, right? Uh, and they have techniques for measuring it, uh, but what they do is they take enzymes and they break it down and see how much darch remains after they break it
+
+[24:48] down. I think, I think the one that they use is called termamile from Novo Symes is the standard for like testing resistant starch. I could be wrong. Uh, so those potatoes are cooked to set the starch granules first,
+
+[25:03] right, which is going to make more of the stuff resistant to, uh, um, digestion. At a low temperature. They're set, I think, somewhere in the mid 60s of Celsius or something like this. Do you remember? I do not remember, but... Yeah. They are then cooked, right? And then mashed. Now then the starch grain, it'll form little beads. It's very kind of bead formatted. And then Robuchon then takes that and Wiley used to do this as well and fortifies it with obscene amounts of butter. Obscene, like 50% butter. And then it's chilled in a fridge to form to coagulate back to a solid mass. When that happens, you should get a lot of retrogradation over time. The advantage is here, is that then you just scoop it up and reheat it, and the stuff that has retrograded,
+
+[25:47] won't, won't, you know, re won't un retrograde in that. And so you should have more resistant starch, but I don't know what the actual answer is. The fat thing, um, you know, there was that article on rice. Remember that, Paul, didn't you send that to me? I haven't tried it. Did you try it? How did you test whether or not it made more resistant starch? I didn't. I tested whether it tasted okay when it was reheated. Oh, sure, did it? It did. Yeah. Well, so the deal with oil is that, remember, so when you're looking at resistance is
+
+[26:20] all, like, glycemic index is all about how quickly your body or how effectively your body can break down the starch in there, right?
+
+[26:27] So millopectin is easier to break down the namelos. So a star that has more mellopectin versus amylose. I don't know how it works in potatoes, do you? I don't. I know, but like, I'm sure it's fluffy versus waxy. It is going to be different, right? So you're going to want to select a potato that has less. I mean, we can look this up. I don't know. I forgot to look that up. But anyway, so Milo pectin is going to higher Milo pectin's going to increase your glycemic index. Also, how literally available it is to your digestive enzymes is going to affect the index. Also, things like fats in your body are gonna, like, slow down the rate at which you break things down and so can decrease the
+
+[27:02] index. All these things affect what's going on. Retrogradation affects what's going on. But what's going on with the rice when they were cooking it with the oil is Amylose forms a helix when it's right, a double helix when it's native. And oil can get into that and form a complex, which then they say is more resistant. Now, I don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what they wrote in the paper. But that's how tapioca, uh, Enzorbit brand tapioca maltodexter works, is that it's this short chain, fluffy, um, uh, you know, um, what I'm looking for,
+
+[27:37] Maltodextring, which is starch breakdown product that complexes with oil. So we know it happens, right? Right. Yeah. I don't know. The answer, short answer. don't know. Needs more testing. Needs more tests, but I don't have the facilities to test it, but it's possible. Like the stuff in the nutrition. This, I mean, like, the facts are the facts. Whether or not something is going to be more or less healthy is a different story. That I can't comment on, right? Right, yeah. It seems likely that fat promotes retrogradation or
+
+[28:06] prevents prevents the enzymatic breakdown of the starches if it's complex. But the thing with the rice is they're complexing it before it's cooked. Right? While it's cooked. While it's cooked. before it's, before it's de-nativized, I guess. I don't know. Another interesting question is, I wonder what happens with the oil in like in like an arborio when you're or not
+
+[28:27] in arborio, rather in a risotto when you do the pre-fry. Does that do anything? Who knows? Not me. Should we take our break? Sure. And we'll come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[28:51] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets. White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[29:14] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms. and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them, and heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal
+
+[29:37] producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[29:50] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural
+
+[29:58] instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. And we are back for the uh, ant tasting slash, grease talking slash whatever. We have a we have a caller. We went to break with the caller. I hope is still waiting patiently. All right. Caller, you were on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi, this is Claire. Hey, Claire. How are you? Hey, Claire. Good, how are you? All right. Dave, I wanted to tell you that at 2 o'clock PM today. Office wide salt team challenge is going down. So for those of you that don't know, the saltine challenge is, um, where you uh, see whether you can consume without any uh, form of
+
+[30:52] liquid, 6 uh, salted top. Not don't get the unsalted top, because that's for wussies, assaulting crackers in 60 seconds or less. And by consume, I mean, you have to get it down your throat. Yeah, and I know, so we did it last night. No one was able to do it. Do you know anyone that can do it? Uh, I only tried it once, and I could get within about 10 seconds of it, but I saw it done on the
+
+[31:17] internet. And, uh, it, that, you know, the successful people use a technique uh, called uh,
+
+[31:23] chunking uh, where you do multiple uh, multiple crackers at
+
+[31:28] once. And uh, the most favorable number seems to be three. I also noticed some of the successful people did some head tilting. The idea is they can store saliva in one section and masticate the dry thing. The trick is, is that your throat has a tough time getting something down if the bolus, which is a technical term that you're using for
+
+[31:47] the, for the, you know, food wad, is completely dry. So you need to somehow segregate a little bit of moisture in your mouth so that you can coat the outside and the inside can be dry as the Sahara
+
+[31:59] desert. But you have to coat the bowless somehow with enough moisture that you can jam it down your throat. So the best technique is to do 3 at a time. And some people do four, but then why? You have still have to do 2 more. Right. So 3 and three, I think, is the way. But I saw someone consume, I think, 12 in a minute. He did four, four, and four. Was he a big man? Now, this is the myth, size. Why are you falling into my myth of eating competitions? More serious, you know? It's all about saliva production. It's all about, and I would do a little bit of that. You can't see me, but I'm going with my mouth. I would do a little pre-formation there of the saliva. You know? The main issue with testing it actually is that the dry, salty crap really doesn't do your tongue too much good. Like, it kind of hurts a little bit. Yeah, you know? Have you did? experienced that last night. Yeah, Paul, are you experienced in this challenge? never done it. Is this one of these fads that's killing teens? Not yet. It became popular a number of years ago, and then I, like, so Dax, my, you know, younger son, read about it somewhere, and he was like, Salting Challenge,
+
+[33:07] dad, Salting Challenge. I think it was him. And so then they then they made me do it. Booker attempted it and failed. Nastasia attempted and failed. I attempted it and failed. Oh, no, Dax attempted and failed too. But I'm close. I mean, I could do it with practice. Right now, I feel like saliva's about to drip out of my mouth because my body is gearing up for the challenge. You can see it, right? frothing. I'm frothing like a, like a, like some sort of a, what's that, a rabid dog? I'm sure they can hear. Yeah, yeah. They can hear the frothiness in my voice. But yes. So that is my, I would go on the YouTube and look up some people who do it successfully and then mimic them. That's what I would do. That's a great suggestion. Listen, I have a quick question. Yeah, what's that? So when you have, you know, stocks and I always have these dinner parties and people always bring cheese, usually
+
+[33:56] if they bring, you know, everybody brings free and then we're stuck with 12 wheels of breed. But if they don't, they bring harder cheese. You know, we wrap it up in plastic at the end. How do you know when it's really, really gone bad, just aside from smelling it? Hard cheese is, they don't go bad, really. They just dry out and and their texture becomes unpleasant. The, um, like they'll crack, they'll lose moisture. Occasionally, if the humidity of your fridge is not good or if somebody, say Nastasia, gets some water on the outside of the cheese, when she's wrapping
+
+[34:30] it and then wraps it, you can get a mold, formation there, which, you know, might be a mold of questionable, I'm really salivating, like, because of my thinking
+
+[34:37] saltines. Um, you, uh, you, you know, you might have some questionable mold there, but that can probably be, uh, trimmed away. So a hard cheese. You're pretty much good until until it gets moldy, bad moldy. Uh, bree is gonna be okay until it smells like ammonia, and then it's gonna be, um, unpleasant. Uh, but the fun thing about the ammonia smell is that, is that you have to uh, wait a minute for it to warm up uh, for it uh,
+
+[35:07] to, what are you, what are your thoughts on the big wheel of Brie, Paul? Go on with this waiting a minute. But go on with this waiting a minute technique. Oh, haven't had this. Well, yeah. wait a minute to see whether the ammonia, because when it's cold, the ammonia will be suppressed. And so you have to wait a minute for the ammonia smell to kind of become present. So you could think something's okay because a small amount of ammonia is
+
+[35:33] not is like, you know, almost normal in some cheeses that have been aged a lot. And then, but it can become overpowering as it works. This is a mistake. So like if you go to a cheese shop and a lot of cheese shops because it's better for the cheese, store it kind of at wine cellar temperatures, you should taste cheeses at the
+
+[35:48] temperature, you're going to serve them. A lot of people, look, when I was growing up, you're, like, you know, I, my belief was that Jesus should be served at room temp, but then, like, there's a big kind of backlash against that and that, oh, Jesus should be served, you know, at different temperatures,
+
+[36:00] some more of closer to a cellar temperature. But, you know, I grew up liking my cheese is kind of stinky and on the warm side. But like an ammoniacal cheese, which is an awesome word. Uh, it, you know, the warmer it gets them more kind of stinky, you'll get. I guess you could heat it enough to drive the ammonia off. I don't know. Like in the oven? No, you have to make a soup out of it or something like this. I mean, breathe, you hate it. You know, it's over. But, you know, you could do one of those. you know, you guys weren't alive in the 70s. But, you know, back in the 70s, you bought a big wheel of tasteless brie, wrapped it in puff pastry, cooked the hell out of it, and then poured honey over the top of
+
+[36:44] it and serve it with crackers. Oh, that's a seller's family classic recipe from the south, Dave. I know all about that slithered almonds on top. Yeah, so from the south, do you also eat pimento cheese sandwiches? Oh, you bet. Yeah, nice. Love it. Cheese straws. But let me let me just put it this way. I don't know if you're aware of this fact, but Brie being a French thing, ain't got nothing to do with the South. You know, Bri, cook, breed. But the 70s, you know, and in the in the fact that the South probably has preserved good of good old-fashioned American 70s fair better than anyone else. Like, that's, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But actually, I actually have to say, I enjoy that crap. Really? Oh, me too. Yeah. Like the fact that the oil separates from the brie and the puff pastry is greasy and it's on that cracker. You know what we used to? On a car is cracker. Yeah, so sometime in like the very early 80s, roasted garlic became kind of
+
+[37:38] big, and then it was roasted garlic with that brie was like the thing to have.
+
+[37:42] So you would have the roasted garlic on the cracker with the baked brie, and that
+
+[37:47] was, that was the shizzy right there. That was what the... With the honey or no honey? Uh, the honey became optional at that point. think. true. Yeah. honey became optional at that point All right, send us photos from your challenge, Claire. Yeah, I will. I will. I've got my eye on one person who I think can do it. Look, I'm sure that some cooking issues listeners out there have more than tackled this problem because this is the kind of thing that our listeners probably are
+
+[38:12] excel at, right? All right. It's more... All right. Well, thanks for the help. All righty. good luck with it All right, bye. So we have Paul is here to taste some fancy ants and to taste some antigin. What do you want to do first? You want to taste the real ants or the anti gin? Antigen was, they take wood ants from Denmark, and they crush them up and distill them. That's how they make the anti-gin. Just so you know. And they add botanicals. Plus botanicals. Ants, and botanicals, antigen. Okay. let's have real ants first Okay, so eat the real ants. you go. I got 2 kinds of real ants. Do we able to find the labels on them? No, the labels have rubbed off. Nice. There are big ones and small ones. All right, the big ones, I believe, are the giant Oaxacan flying ants. And I believe the smaller ones might live in the agave somehow. Those, I believe, are the giant ants. I hope those are the giant ones. Yeah, those are the giant ones. Go to it, Paul. No, it's Paul. This is Paul. No, we all have to have the aunts, Dave. The hell, man. I paw first. It's got pretty much no flavor. Is it because they're old or you think they just have no flavor? Maybe old. There's no acidity to it? Not that one, maybe I'll try a 2nd one. Try a 2nd one. Now this is the package that was already opened, right? Right. These were purchased at the Mercado San Juan in Mexico City. That's got a little more. Acidity? Not acidity. A little like oxidized sherry raisin flavor. It's nice. Be really good with some brie on a cracker. Seriously. Try it there. Oh Jesus. These ants, by the way, are enormous. Yeah. Well, someone should take a picture of these things and tweet these suckers out. Do it, Paul. Yeah, Paul, people, people, man. So whatever. Stas, you gotta eat one too. Go do it. Do it. Oh they're fatty. Mine wasn't fatty. This was fatty. Oxidized fat. Um, yeah,
+
+[40:33] it tastes like cooked brie with...
+
+[40:38] What do you think, Stas? Tastes metallic. I think there's a little, I think it maybe, I think maybe they're a little old and I think the fat's getting oxidized. Could be. When did you get these? And were they freshly cooked? When I was in Mexico. That was 3 weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. All right, next. Maybe longer. Longer. Next are the small ants, which are the size of small raisins. And they're just the thorax of the ant, right? They aren't the tripark. I need some water because the problem is the outside, the kitanus exoskeleton is sticking to my teeth. And it also tastes bad. I like to take, you just don't like the taste because of what you sociate. I didn't get any battery in mind. all battery. I think there's poor quality control. I think the ants each taste different. That is entirely possible. These are very well sealed, so they're hopefully fresher. Yes. Well, he is getting that 2nd one open to me. Why don't we do the din? Well, we have to wait. Paul something... Yeah.
+
+[41:52] So is that a is that a have again or not a have again, Paul? I would have one or 2 more of those. All right. Small ants. Oh, these have the entire thing with legs and everything. I eat one of these. This is the entire ant. I can't do this. Paul has a face. Hmm, that's nice. Little fresh. Grassy, lemony. Yeah, that's what your ass tastes like. This is what you would expect if you're lying in a meadow and an ad crawls into your mouth. How often does this happen, people? Well, I grew up in Manhattan, so never. Central Park. What? That's a rat. All right, stars, eat one. Stars. These are better amps. Jack, come in here eat one. Yeah. That's nicer Jack, you gonna eat one of these? He's on the phone. I don't know that I would go out of my way to get these. Hey, Jack. All right, Jack. Here. Eat one of those suckers. Yeah. What do you think? I would eat one of the other ones. I'm waiting for like... What does it taste like? My friend. Eat one of the fatty ones while you're waiting. I need some water. Oh, no, right there. Oh, my God. Yeah, I need some water, that's for sure. Okay, let's wash this down with some anti-gin. Yeah, you want to probably want to get one of those plastic cups there? Yeah. It gets worse. Yeah. No, gets worse. No, no. No, no, it gets worse. But I hear, look, the ones that, um, the ones that
+
+[43:48] uh, Alex Atla has, I think, are like totally fresh, like still, because isn't formic acid gonna volatilize? or something. Isn't it volatile like acetic acid? It is. I don't know how long it would stick around. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I've learned much by eating these. Have you learned a lot by eating these? If I ever prepare ant snacks, I will season them with chili and lime. Yeah. Yeah, but it's supposed to have its own citrusiness from the itself. So like that's just cheating. I could prepare anything. I would just rather have Fritos. You know what I mean? Fritos are delicious in and of themselves. Add chili and lime and you've added more delicious stuff to a Frito. You know what I mean? Yeah, but Fritos aren't as freely available in Meadows. No, fair. I'm sorry. I'm going to wash this ant particles down. Now Paul is tasting the anti-gen. I think you need to empty all the vials in. Okay, well, while he's getting ready to taste that. Oh, you know what? Before you do anything, water on it brings brings the flavor out. I see what you mean. Maybe an ant soda. Yeah, now I'm getting more of the, uh, now I'm getting more of the citrus, more of the...
+
+[45:10] tonic and anti-gin. Yeah there you go. All right. Uh, well, okay, you ready to taste his tastes? For the record Styles did not try the other amp. Wait, which one, the fatty one? No, the little guy. Oh, the fatty one was better. Neither was good. The antigen is delicious. Yeah? Complex. Good antacidity. Yeah. So you can really taste the ant. I wouldn't name it as ant, but it is a unique flavor. The formic acid, I assume, esterizes rapidly and creates all these interesting complexities.
+
+[45:53] Yeah, well, I don't know how much of the Native ant flavor
+
+[45:58] is, uh, distillable. Yeah, one second. I'm tasting it. Man, it's good. It's made by a, I forget the name of the distiller in Cambridge in conjunction with the Nordic food lab. I think it's called Cambridge Distillers or something like that. Yeah, not our Cambridge, they're Cambridge. England. England the English Cambridge. Yeah, the one that's closer to Denmark. The one that came first. Although, you know, we don't like the minute. What do you think of that stuff? good. Yeah. All right. So safe styles pro anti-gin. Oh, man. We don't have that much time, right? All right. Well, listen. Jim Guineri called in and by the way, it's about center views and stuff. I'll get to that. Oh, no, this one I have to do. We have to do this. Paul, you're gonna try one on this because it might run out of time. There is a question on centrifuges in from Tom, which I'll get to next week. Um, and more San Francisco stuff that we'll get to next week. And a question on gimlets, basil gimlets from Jason that we'll have to get to next week. But Jim's been waiting. And by the way, pronounced Guarniri, which is
+
+[47:08] why, presumably, he also enjoys Guar the band. Are you a fan of Guar the band? I heard one of the guys died. Yeah, what's your favorite Guar song? Preschool prostitute? Hard to pick a favorite. Hard to put the odorous Eurungus died. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sad sad. sad day for sad day for theatrical hydrocolloid bands. Yeah, yeah. I told you, I heard people. I've never saw them in concert, but people would come back with blood under their contact lenses. Fake blood under their contact lenses. impressive. Yeah, very good, very good spray. Anyway. Dear Dave, Nastasi Jack, and Paul. I've been, I still have ant in my mouth. Yeah. The fatty, you get the fattiness now. like lick the roof of your mouth. You get that like slickness. Yes. It's like Crisco Slick. I have been asked by my sister to come up with a couple of interesting cocktails for her wedding. One of them will just be something interesting slash special that one wouldn't normally see at a wedding.
+
+[48:07] The other is specifically for the champagne toast. The groom cannot stand carbonation. Whoa. And he says, sorry, Nastasi, but really that's an insult to all of us. Can't stand carbonation. Find a new groom. The groom could pre-dose with acetozolamide. drug prescribed for altitude sickness that inhibits the sensation of
+
+[48:30] carbonation. This an excellent idea. We tested it, you and I. Does it mess up? I forget, it doesn't mess up your sense of flavor for other things, does it? No, not at all. Yeah, this perfect. Holy crap. We have just solved your problem. Give the groom this altitude sickness pill about a half an hour before the champagne toast, and they could just drink them some champagne, and everyone else will be happy, and he'll be like, why is this wine a little flat? I mean, flat, not carbonation wise, but why is it like lacking in some of the flavor that I associate with wine and why is it so acidic?
+
+[49:00] But, but, done and done. Tell your doctor you're going mountain climbing and you need a prescription for acetozolamide. I forget the trade name. Assuming, Paul, love you, man. That's why we need Paul here, like, all the time for this kind of stuff. Let's actually finish in case this is not something that they're willing to do. So the groom cannot stay in carbonation, so they would like a non-bubbly substitute for the toast. I was thinking of pre-batching both and possibly bottling one or both. I have 6 ounce champagne bottles and a capper. I have 2 questions. First, I have liquid intelligence, know about your liquid nitrogen method for clearing the headspace. Can this be done with a chip of dry ice instead? Probably you might get some residual carbonation. You still have to wait for it to stop, volatilize, and you pressurize the bottle, which might cause problems. I guess it might have the potential to carbonate, but if the bottle's pretty full, it seems like the volume of CO2 and the headspace wouldn't be enough for perceptible carbonation. It's possible, but be very careful not to blow the bottle up. Second, any suggestions for the 2 cocktails. The only guidance I've been given is that neither can be carbonated. They love bourbon and whiskey in general, and they really like herbal infused liquor,
+
+[50:07] Chartreuse, absinthe, Benedictine, and they prefer the toast drink to be lighter since it will be had by many who might not typically drink cocktail. Manhattan's. Duh. Just make Manhattans, right? Paul? That's not light. We gotta go. All right, we'll come back with more light cocktails. More suggestions and we'll talk about grease next week. All cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[50:39] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritage foodsusa.com. I'm Linda Pelaggio, host of a Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the British Pizzeria and Bushwick, Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network. As usual on Tuesdays from nah, nah, nah, around 12, somewhere in the 12 area. 12, 12, 10, 12, 12. Hey, look, it is my fault because, you know, obviously, people show up to work on time. However, in my defense, the J and M are skipping all of the stops that are related. I mean, Jack, no offense. It's one of the problems about being out here and theoretically well served Brooklyn. See, Manhattan is not theoretically well served by public transportation. We are actually well served by public transportation, at least south of 96. Rice does? Yeah. That's why she lives over in Hill's Kitchen. That's one place on Earth. does not hate, is Hell's Kitchen. It's true. She claims, I don't know if you know this, Jack. She claims that the actual son is nicer, like a mile and a half west on the west side of the
+
+[1:36] island. Oh, yeah, better coordinates, sure. What? It's a mile and a half away. It depends on how many tall buildings there are between you and everything else. Crazy people, crazy people. It's funny when they said there was that Manhattan henge where the sun was going to align with the buildings and it would set perfectly in between the grid. I was driving to Philly and all these people are in the middle of the street blocking traffic with their phones. It's completely overcast. Are you about to sing the Age of Aquarius? It sounded like you were sitting. Yeah, the intro to the age of Aquarius? Run the moon, right? How does it go? It's like something like that. It's in like a 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars. Something will happen across the planet. But I think love, I think, I think love rules the earth, which goes to show it never happened. Never going to happen. I think that show made me uncomfortable. Why are they running around naked? What that all about? It's not shocking. why I don't want, you know? Not necessary. Hey, I do want to jump right to our 1st call here with Lou from Beacon. Now, this is not a question. This is just a call. That's right. It's just a it's a guest. It's a guest. Lou from, well, but it's pronounced beacon, isn't it? Beacon, yes. Beacon, hi, David. It's actually Lou and Dean. We're both here. And you are a brother duo, correct? That's correct How's that working for you? Working with your brothers. It's gotten better and better over the years. I'm trying to imagine my 2 kids working together. and only if their job was to fight each other would be the only
+
+[3:00] way. I stopped growing and he didn't. So we stopped fighting a long time ago. Oh, nice, nice. All right, so listen, um, rather than me giving the, uh, so they've developed this new uh, brewing device, but rather than me give the spiel for your product, why don't you just roughly tell people who aren't familiar with
+
+[3:16] it kind of what you got going? Sure. So, uh, so Beacon, you know, we're, um, we've been focused on unlocking, you know,
+
+[3:24] higher quality, highest quality, made to order a craft beverage. We come from the coffee industry and the technology was originally born from coffee when Dean invented it. But the process uses vacuums to pull the air out of the granite material. And when the vacuums are released, the liquid goes back in size, called rain. It stands to reverse atmosphere confusion. And what we realize is that, um, is an open technology that, um, really optimizes
+
+[3:53] flavor extraction from coffees, teas, infused waters, cocktails, um, it allows beverages to be created that have never been able to be created before.
+
+[4:01] And so, um, the patents and the technology is, um, very broad reaching. We're focusing 1st in the restaurant arena, and interest of working with chefs, a mixologist, and baristas, to create great content for the platform, but ultimately, the idea is that this is an internet technology
+
+[4:18] that will bring into the home. So one day, all those recipes that exist out there can be replicated by any consumer. And now, it's not spelled like beacon that, why don't you spell it for people so that they can find it on the
+
+[4:32] internets. Sure. It's B-K-O-N. The website is Beacon Brew, B-K-O-N, B-R-E-W, and um, we just spelled it a little bit differently,
+
+[4:42] but um, it, it announced as in beacon, like a beacon of light. signal a, um, a, um, a pep finding, um... Right. Now, so the, the, the, one of the fundamental
+
+[4:56] things similar to like old school vacuum infusion where you're doing like pulse cycles of vacuum to 1st infuse liquid in and then draw it back back out again, presumably the patent has to do with
+
+[5:08] the combination of that with the heating element and the processor control of it. I would be explain, but we have a whole range of intellectual property, but, um,
+
+[5:17] It's the, the, process is, is, is quite simple, although it's a little bit more complicated than just pulling a vacuum. Specifically, it has to do with just the phases of the vacuum, the depth of the vacuum, the time that it's applied,
+
+[5:34] um, and or controlled, um, with the, uh, intervals in between where it goes back to normal atmosphere. So that's really the key of the technology is the by controlling the vacuum and the depth of each specific vacuum phase, it allows it to penetrate
+
+[5:53] a determine distance, essentially, into the cellular structure of the material. Let's say if we have 33 that are in sequence with a pause in between, it allows us to draw the gases out, the solvent goes in, then we
+
+[6:11] go with the next one, go a little bit further and keep going through the cellular structure, drawing the flavors actually out through the pores of the
+
+[6:19] material. The material itself is acting as a filter. Like, uh, water purify is, um, ed rock. Right. Right. So, and presumably you have different programs written for different kind of products and there's like a
+
+[6:36] lot where you have like a recipe system in it that there's more of user just types in what they want and then you pump it out the other
+
+[6:42] side. Yes, yes, it's, uh, the, the recipes are predetermined, predesigned by the content partners. Um, um, there's specific flights that we've designed that allow a, uh, a very turnkey application as far as finding the best recipes for a specific type of beverage.
+
+[7:05] We've done a lot of research to make it easier for people to use the tool the right way and to find the optimal setting.
+
+[7:12] Right. Now, are you able to pull the vacuum levels that you need with a, like a diaphragm or a wobble pump or do you have to have like a larger pump in there or what are you guys using? Uh, we're using a small diaphragm pump that's, uh, was designed for medical equipment. Right. Now, so presumably with a diaphragm pump, you're not taking to like as deep a vacuum level as you would with, let's say, like a rotary vein pump in a
+
+[7:39] commercial in a packer, but also you can't suck those kind of volumes anyway. I mean, those kind of vacuum levels anyway, because a lot of what you're doing is at temperature, so you're going to get boil off a lot before that. So it's a lot of the art of it figuring out how to get enough of a vacuum delta and still have the high temperature without a lot of boil off or what?
+
+[7:58] Absolutely. Absolutely. All that is based in the code of the recipe. There is certainly a relationship of the water temperature to the depth of the vacuum. Also taking the material and the solvent into account as well. Right. So, um, uh, we certainly don't want to go into a full-on boil uh, with by creating a very deep
+
+[8:22] vacuum as that will also reduce the temperature of the liquid if we're working with something hot.
+
+[8:28] We're working with that ambient beverage, we can go quite a bit
+
+[8:33] further. But there certainly is that relationship, what's optimal. One of the things, Dave, that makes us really unique and very much an internet of things play, from a model standpoint, is all of the, all the code that goes into controlling different parameters, the water temperatures, the whole times, the different vacuum pressures, different vacuum durations, and it differs between just 2 different
+
+[9:01] coffees or the same coffee, 2 different roast profiles. And, but the beautiful thing about it is because it's,
+
+[9:07] because it's, because it's code. Um, and based on, uh, you know, our 1st product line,
+
+[9:13] it was built, is built exclusively in commercial space by, um, by
+
+[9:16] Frankie. And because of the level of engineering that has gone into this. What's amazing about it is that when that beverage is recreated, it can be recreated. So going back to your question earlier about how there's other methods that have been around for a long time of using manual pumps and manual
+
+[9:35] methods or partial manual methods to pull vacuums on materials and
+
+[9:41] liquid. This is all about understanding how we control those parameters, how we put them into code, and ultimately how we allow them to be replicated. Um, um, based on all the factors that allow you to achieve a precise, um,
+
+[9:57] some beverage. In the same way that when you put a bottle of stone beer, you don't need to be in San Diego to drink
+
+[10:03] it to know exactly how good and how perfect it should taste. That's our goal of what we're trying to do when they made to order side. And presumably also, like, if some knucklehead hits a recipe that's a water base and they have an alcohol in there,
+
+[10:15] like you have to know when you're, like, it has to know from the pumping curve that stop. I'm boiling before I thought I was going to, things like this, right? I mean, presumably that has to get built into the kind of lease somewhere, right? Absolutely. I mean, it's keep in mind it's a semiautomatic piece of equipment. So there's obviously plenty of room for user error. There's obviously, there's certainly going to be visual cues. The more... Hello? Or you get used to seeing, and identifying very quickly, whether things are right or wrong. It's not to say that we can't actually mix hot water with an ethanol base and make a beverage because we can. Um, and we've done we've shown that with hot toddies, which is quite interesting. So, um, you know, there's, it's not just a single beverage in itself, but the system allows for a crossover.
+
+[11:06] So going from a T to a spirit, and then a T and a spirit combined it to the same recipe, it's quite, quite intriguing. If, for instance, we have a drink that, um, that we make using, um,
+
+[11:17] buffalo trace because it's, uh, a little bit sweeter, and we get this beautiful Madagascar vanilla bean, and this, um, both
+
+[11:23] Rishi tea, and as well as this, um, It's, uh, this beautiful black tea from Rishi tea. We put it in the porta filter with the bourbon. So that bourbon is, let's say, 75 degrees, and there's 6 ounces of it. And then we add 8 ounces of 200 degree water. So now we're somewhere between, let's say, 140 degrees, math is in a strong suit. Um, but we are able to extract within about 90 seconds, labors from that bourbon and tea. I'm sorry, the flavors from that tea and vanilla into the water and the bourbon is we have increased the temperature, but we now have the bourbon and they're acting as a solvent as well.
+
+[12:01] But to your point, the digital part is only one side. The other side is the arc. And that is the arc that occurs on the content partner side, whether it's a coffee roaster, a tea company, or a chef or a mixologist is creating a
+
+[12:17] recipe and has the knowledge and expertise of how to source and curate and prepare the ingredients.
+
+[12:23] And then the 2nd part is, um, understanding the parameters and having the right code, having the right recipes. So when you put the 2 together, the magic occurs. Now, I never knew. is it is it Frankie or Frankie? It depends where you are in the world. In America, we call it Frankie. Frankie, and in Europe, it's Frankie. It's F R A N K E. Um, one of the reasons we chose to work with them is, as you
+
+[12:50] realize this technology was going to be very broad reaching and had applications in, um, in home applications and vending and bottling way
+
+[12:58] down, you know, way down the road. We knew we needed to be, um, we needed to be flawless in the food server space where the content would be created. And as an example, when we looked at other boutique companies that were bringing technologies to market, a lot of them were building these technologies
+
+[13:12] in garages on their own, which really is very exciting. And definitely has an appeal to it, but there's obviously a lot of
+
+[13:21] cost and a lot of risks that go into it. We chose Pronky because they're a multi-billion dollar organization. And as an example, when McDonald's wanted to do Mick Cafe, and they said they needed 1000s and 1000s of locations activated in one year, and these machines can be down for more than 4 hours, and they need to be call centers and service networks set up to protect
+
+[13:41] us, and machines have it built to a certain spec. It was fronky that won that and executed on it. So our equipment is being built on the same, uh, the same caliber on the same platform. I mean, the interesting thing about that particular company is they're freaking huge, right? But in terms of the US, their penetration from, like, I don't know, in the QSR world, but in like the fine restaurant worlds, really only in the coffee sector. Like, but they have a huge business outside of that in Europe and all over the world.
+
+[14:11] I wonder why they never, like they sell autoclaves, they sell, you know, all sorts of stuff. I wonder why they don't have the penetration in the other segments here. It's an interesting thing. Ive always wondered about with those guys. Yeah, I can't speak to their business. But what I can say that, uh, you know, they definitely have the infrastructure, and, um, they've been incredible, they've been an amazing partner, and incredibly, um, um, I guess, uh, non-traditional in terms of um, stepping out of
+
+[14:39] their, their big infrastructure organizational um, uh, norms to be very innovative and adaptive with us as, as entrepreneurs. So, um, it's really sort of the best of both worlds and that, you know, where um, beacon gets to still be essentially involved in the innovation, um, and ideation and marketing standpoint, um, with them, but they bring, um, you know, decades and decades of
+
+[15:03] experience and, you know, unbelievable infrastructure that we could never, uh, um, practically, you know, uh, pragmatically raise the money
+
+[15:11] or or build. All right, so you don't have a unit yet that people can futz around with at home. Where can they go? Like, who's who's buying these things now? How much they cost? Sure. So this is a pure commercial unit. Um, the, uh, the, the market price that these should be, um, finding being sold for somewhere around the 14 K mark. Ouch. Ouch. Now, now, if you look at it from a commercial standpoint, you really only need to put, you know, you know, 20 teas through it a day to
+
+[15:41] break even within a matter of months. And we have customers who've gone from, as an example, on the tea side who had no tea beverage business, they were just dry tea sellers. Maybe they did maybe 10 hot teas a day because they weren't promoting it to putting this in and now having 70 hot teas a day. So it's going to be transformational. The other thing is, just to point out is that, because it's an open technology, it allows you to deliver that level of
+
+[16:06] quality across any beverage. And so it allows you to do things that you can never even do before. As an example, our infused water capabilities are unmatched and really, you know, they cannot be achieved by anything else. Um, our ability to do, make to order iced teas. We can brew loose leaf tea and concentrated over ice to make the fresher taste in iced tea in 90 seconds. To do that would take 8 minutes. So you wouldn't even be in the game anywhere else than doing it. So from a business standpoint, it's purely, it's a money maker. It's a commercial machine. It's that we're focused on. We've just started putting in market. We got our NSF certification late last fall. And there's numerous companies that have been purchasing them. There's dozens, um, well, over 50 that, uh, swim from
+
+[16:55] 1500, that have already been purchased, that are, uh, going into market. You can begin to see it at Whole Foods in Chicago. They're doing great things with it. She actually sent down Empire State South. We were going to be with him. Actually, this Sunday, Panther Coffee in Miami. They're rolling out multiple locations. We're going to be with them actually on Wednesday. Um, there's uh, Brennan Danes, uh, Philadelphia, really innovative. You have to watch them. They have uh, they've got some incredible investors and um, incredible model. What they're doing in sort of the health, best food, health QSR model is really disruptive. They're building an entire, they're using it for their keys and their, their infused waters. Um, Gabriel uh, Creuter, um, up in uh, um, in Midtown is opening up a new restaurant. He has one. It's uh... does your website have a list of places? Like it's like that, so like if someone lives, I don't know, if they live, I don't know, where do they live? Is Cleveland? They live in Cleveland. Like, can they go on your website and find someone like, you know, close to them that has one or no? Not yet, but what I can say is that there's, um, that, in addition to the
+
+[18:08] boutiques that it's very likely you're going to see some, some significant, um, multi-unit players in the craft beverage
+
+[18:16] space that, um, are going to make this more accessible on a nationwide level. So it's, right now, a lot of the, not a lot of the buy-in, as within any new product, is in this innovative, that
+
+[18:28] innovator demographic, which is actually represents about, about 2% of your market, the next stage is the early adopters. And that we're really sort of still in that innovator cusp early adopter phase of people who are using it, but the results have been,
+
+[18:42] you know, we're seeing increases of sales at 165% within established beverage categories
+
+[18:51] of people. Right. Now, one last question, but then we have to go to break. Are you worried at all? I guess not because you're working with Frankie, but are you worried about being clovered, where like some big person buys you and then crushes the technology into tiny pieces? No, and that's exactly why we partner with Frankie in that we're, you know, we're building this thing to bring it around the world. And most importantly, we're building this to populate the beacon, the craft cloud,
+
+[19:14] which, um, once that content is up there, it's going to allow us to answer your question from before, it's going to allow us to move very quickly into the home space because the content will exist. The home model is much simpler for us to build. And so, we already are adding content partners like RCP and counterculture coffee, and it just, it's like apps. And one says they're there, when home units come out, you're going to know exactly what you love, and you're going to pull those apps down. And someone can really pull recipes that you've created, Dave, and they can have their own cocktail or water, a coffee recipe, and they hit that button as long as they have the ingredients during the game.
+
+[19:46] I don't know if they want any recipes that we created, right? Anyway, gentlemen, thanks so much. Look at our beak, it's bkon.com, right? Beacon? Yes, you got it. Check it out, check it out. Really interesting new technology. Thanks for coming on the show. We'll be right back with a little more cooking issues.
+
+[20:21] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[20:48] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them, and
+
+[21:07] heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[21:15] system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[21:25] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[21:30] humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. You have to eat them to save them. Love that. You have to eat them to save them. Well, not that particular one because he's dead. You know what I mean? But, you know, in general, I get it. I get what you're saying. Welcome back to cooking issues. Stas, how you doing? Good. Yeah? Anything good happening today after the show? Oh, uh, Nern sale. You gonna say, say it? No, you say it. You got the you got the reverb on me, Jack? Oh yeah, here we go. That happens at 2.30? Oh, yeah, I thought you said two. Yeah, we'll be there at two. Yeah, around two, 230. You know, bring cash in a truck because I'm not touching it. I wore a light blue shirt today. I didn't wear my... I want to see this happen where you're... I wore... I mean, I take, you're saying I have to take the shirt off? Or we're just
+
+[22:37] going to be, we're going to be sipping old boo straight out of the bottle. Yeah, I have the waivers to sign, I have everything. Yeah, yeah. If you buy something that's dangerous, hey, it's on you. It's on you, baby. You know what I mean? Also, one more thing. I have a request. First of all, I missed this question. It's too late because I didn't know when the thing was, but Julian wrote in saying, I'm traveling
+
+[22:56] to San Francisco for the WWDC, which is, I think, the Apple developer thing. this year. And I'm lucky enough to have some free time, but I didn't realize before the conference and it just started. So he missed his free time. So tweet to him, a tweet to me for him, any suggestions you have for his remaining time in the San Francisco Bay Area of places to go. I need to go back there soon. I forget why, but I have to go back to San Francisco soon, and then I can have my own fresh recommendations. But I hope you're having a good time there, Julie. Why't you tweet us and tell us where you went, whether you enjoyed it? Ray says? Did you enjoy it? Did you have a good time? Okay, also, I have a request. This goes a request out. To anyone who listens to this show who lives in a mountainous region. I'm interested in Turkish coffee that is produced at altitude. And so if you live in kind of like your in your like 6000, uh, that's like around 2000 or 1800 meters or somewhere in there, like the boiling point of water should just about be at optimum coffee extraction
+
+[23:53] temperature. And I want to know whether your Turkish coffee is especially delicious. I don't know, you're natural libre fan styles. you've seen that movie? Today is especially delicious. I want to know whether it's any different from us, you know, chumps down here at sea level
+
+[24:08] producing, uh, producing coffee. So tweet me in. Let me know because I'm... You got to tell the Turkish coffee man story. Which one? I mean, the copper maker story. You didn't do it. Well, when I run my own test, I'll talk about the guy. Like, I look, I have a nice, look, for those of you that are actually Turks, you're
+
+[24:26] going to get mad if I call the Turkish coffee maker an e-brick because you use the term e-brick to mean something else. But here in the United States, when we refer to a Turkish coffee maker. We call it an e-brick. And the Greeks, who don't care about what anyone calls anything in Turkey. They call it a brickie, right? He's like a brickie. Mine's from Greece. It's very nice. Nastasia bought it for me, and it was very cheap because as we all know, the economy in Greece, not se bueno. But I'll tell a story later because I got to get some questions. But I'm very interested in Turkish coffee and I am very interested in rubbing it in the face of snobs who think that Turkish coffee is not a good product or can't be a good product because it doesn't fit their particular idea of what good coffee should
+
+[25:04] be. And, you know, anytime somebody does something as a cultural ritual for 100s and 100s of years. I'm just going to go ahead and say there's probably something to it, right, Styles? Probably something to it. Or people wouldn't keep freaking doing it. You know, like crappy percolators from the 50s. Like no one sits around doing those anymore. You know why? I do. You use a percolator? You use a freaking percolator, one that goes gabloop, gabloop,
+
+[25:29] gabloop, into the plastic top. You put it on your stove and it goes, bloop, bloop. Yeah. Yeah. It died. It died. Yeah, I mean, fine. You know what I mean? Or like mocha pot, like has its own kind of like advantages. You know what I mean? It has its own kind of its own kind of brew. But the fact of the matter is, is that these technologies have sustained themselves because they produce something that people freaking like. So why thumb your nose at the idea? Let's just figure out what all the parameters are in Turkish coffee. I'll let you know one thing about Turkish coffee, is that every single American I've seen do it does it wrong. They do it freaking wrong. For those of you that, for those of you that have no, I don't really have the time to go into it, but here it is. So like Turkish coffee, like extremely finely ground, almost like a powder, right? So whether you mix it into the water when it's already hot or not depends on where you make it, like whether you're doing it in Serbia and Turkey, Greece, whatever. But we're not even gonna get into that. So you put the powdered thing in. And then it comes up and forms a froth, which is called a boil, right? And in America, they always say you boil it 3 times, right? But if you look at Americans do it, they're such jokers, right? That what we do is we let it boil up and then we don't do anything, we let it settle back
+
+[26:37] down, and then we just boil that 3 times and pour it, and then you spoon the froth off the top.
+
+[26:41] No, you this it look. You don't have to go to Turkey, right, to know this. This is why YouTube was invented. Not really. But this is why I like the fact that YouTube was invented because I can go watch a video of like 12 different folks in Turkey making Turkish coffee and instantly realize that as soon as it froths up, 1st of all, they cook it in sand, right?
+
+[27:04] And that's why I haven't tested yet because I haven't gotten the sand. I didn't want to buy a £50 sack of it in Home Depot because, as Asassi likes to say, I'm not a real man. a straw man. Anyway. And I was like, I don't need It's not that I can't lift a £50 of sand stars. What the hell am I going to do with the other 48 freaking pounds? Throw it in trash? Anyways, I need a small amount of sand. So you put sand into like into a pan, put it over coals and it's very even. Anyway, so it boils up. It makes a froth. You then pour that froth out right now into the cup. Then you let it froth again, then you pour that froth out again. Then maybe if you want, you do it a 3rd time, and then you pour it out and you leave a lot of the grounds in the cup. That's the way to do it. And I've never seen an American do it that way. Maybe that's why snobby Americans thumb their noses at it because they just have no idea how to properly make it. Anyway, I'm going to go through the investigation. Why? Because I enjoy it. Now, if I can get to a question before they unplug my mic and kick me out
+
+[27:59] of here. Um, Tom wrote in. Tell me if I answer this question or not. For instance, like Jason wrote in about gimlets, and I think I answered it already. Jason, if I didn't answer your gimlet question, your basil gimlet question. write it back. Write me again and say, hey, jerk, you didn't answer it. You know what I mean? And I will. Uh, so, uh, Tom wrote in, uh, and he says hello to uh, Nastasia Jack and the rest of the crew, which is very nice. Finally up to date to the podcast. I've got 3 questions, order by priority. Uh, I've been using my sand center circulator and getting amazing results on fish and pork belly, but when I tried the 100 hour oxtail recipe of modernist
+
+[28:38] cuisine. Did I do this? Okay. I found off flavors and gas development, starting around 50 hours of circulation. The same thing happened with the modernist cuisine, 72 hours short ribs, 58 or 60 degrees Celsius recipe, which I luckily got out before they actually went off. I had the oxtail and ribs backpacked at my local butcher with a chamber vac sealer. Now I assume the reason has to do with bacteria not getting killed off, which may be due to slightly big water bath, but the short ribs were fixed in the center, and I
+
+[29:06] measured the temperature throughout the bath with a thermometer, indicating constant and correct
+
+[29:10] temperature every, everywhere, any ideas what went wrong. All right, yes, I have some ideas. I think what happened is, like, let's say you had a bunch of short ribs in a, you have to tell me, right? But let's say you had a bunch of short ribs in one package, right? So there's sauce and microbes and all sorts of like nastiness, right? Inside of the bag in the center of the bag, right? And I think what happens is it just took too long for the temperature, the
+
+[29:39] kill temperatures to make it to the inside of the bag, right? So if you were to take a block. as is my favorite example. I don't know why. But if you were to take a block of meat, whole meat that had never been pierced with a knife,
+
+[29:51] like, let's say don't cook, kill, and cook whales. But let's say you had a chunk of whale flesh, single chunk of whale flesh, because I can't think of any other animal big enough to do this, right? That is the size of like a Chevy small block engine, right? And you were to put that into a bag, one piece, right? And then you were to circulate it, right? Then it doesn't matter really how long it takes for the center of that whale chunk to get up to cooking temperature because the inside of the meat is fundamentally
+
+[30:17] sterile, unless it had an infection, or unless you stabbed it with a knife all the way through to the center. Now, as soon as you get in a situation where, because the whale meat is extremely, you know, it's very, it's very lean. It's a whale. You know what I mean? Well, they got a lot of blubber, but I think the meat itself, the muscles, I don't know how marbled it is. I've never seen it. I never cooked whale meat, obviously, because I'm not for killing whales, but as soon as you take big pieces of lard or blubber, and you start like penetrating the meat with and like putting stuff in the middle of it, or if you start hacking up that big piece of
+
+[30:49] meat and then laminating it together with sauce, or if you take a bunch of different ribs and short, you know, short ribs or whatever you're
+
+[30:56] using oxtail, and you pack them all into one bag, well now you have contamination in the middle of your bag. So if it takes 6 hours for the middle of the bag to get up to kill temperatures, you have plenty of time for bacteria
+
+[31:07] to start growing and puffing the bag out. Once the bag puffs out, then you can have a reduced temperature everywhere in it and you can continue to grow and it can go off. So I think that's what happened. Because the temperatures that you're using are clearly high enough to kill everything.
+
+[31:21] So even if you're cooking at home and you're not going to be doing portion control work, I always recommend, if you can, to bag each uh, large, each piece, like each oxtail or each rib in a separate bag, if you can, and barring that, because also then if you lose a bag, you only lose one piece of meat, but, and, you know,
+
+[31:42] if, uh, if that jerk who said they were going to come over to dinner, doesn't come over to dinner, you can always just chill that bag without contaminating the rest of your
+
+[31:48] bag. How often that happens to us? Like, they're like, ah, I'm late. All the time, right? So then you could take that bag that you'd plan to serve to your ungrateful houseguest and put it back in the, you know, chill it down and put it back in the fridge. So it's convenient a lot of times, although it wasteful of plastic, to have them individually bad. But barring that, you should have all of your individual pieces of meat in a single
+
+[32:09] layer, and I think that might solve your problem. And when I say single layer, such that the bag can get all the way around it, right? So if you have a bunch that are laminated together, even, you know, it could cause problems. that's what's happening. Second problem is on centrifuges. Via my University, I had the fortune of using a centrifuge to make some. Oh no, I answered the pe butter question. Peanbutter question, I think I answered. I remember answering a people question. Listen, if I didn't answer the rest of your questions, Tom, let me know and I'll get to them. You can ask me more questions. One more question. One more question. One more question. Okay, let's see, let's see what this one is. Hey, Dave. Massage and Jack and Annie Poppins. This is from Christian. Love the show, discovered it after my buddies at Arden Restaurant here in Milwaukee. Stas, you love Milwaukee. It's one of the things you like. Hate biscuits, love Milwaukee. Called in to get recipe for brandy old-fashioned slushies for their late night ramen transformation. My wife and I just bought a house. Congrats, and discovered the previous owners had never installed a waterline into the freezer. What the hell did this guy's doing? What are they doing? How do you not have a waterline in your people? ice makers, good. Icemaker, good. into the freezer. So we are Iseless barring a Midsummer snowstorm. Even up there, I don't think you get them. You know what I'm saying? Do you know that Dax used to, when he was roasting coffee in the in the winter? He would run out and snow chill it. He over, he overrose it. And Dax wanted to go into business selling snow chilled, Dax's dark
+
+[33:36] roast, snow chilled coffee. And I was like, good luck with that, Dax. Good luck. You know, I would support him, but that's a hard, that's a hard business model. because you have to wait for snow or move to Sweden or something. Uh, okay. So we were ISO sparring a Midsummer snowstorm. You can probably have a line installed, but you can, by the way. But before doing that, I wanted to get your thoughts on making ice at home. We basically have 2 uses. One, the rapid cooling during cooking. Uh, blanching, bringing cooked ice cream base or yogurt down, standard uh, beer cooler uh, filling, and two, ice for cocktails. Considering getting a greater than $300 standalone ice maker for rapid cooling and making cubes using the cooler in freezer technique described, you know, on Dave
+
+[34:19] Stolte's website for bar ice. How you set up a good home ice program from scratch? Any recommendations for inexpensive ice makers that could work for both the cooking and bar applications? Thanks, Christian. All right, look, this, oh, that used to be my telephone. Okay, let me give you some good and bad news. The good news is, there's no good news. Like, I would get the expensive ice maker. Well, okay, look, what do I have? I got, you know, I got I got flatback because I pronounce it incorrectly. I'm going to say it the way I say it, and then someone can write in again and tell me how to actually pronounce it minute a walk. Manitowok, Manitowok. That's the company, the ice maker company that I have at home. Commercial ice maker, I would get an undercounter commercial ice maker. And I would try to find some knucklehead who's getting rid of it. Now the problem is, they use a lot of energy, right? They use a lot of energy because they're constantly making ice, right? Definitely that what you really should do is just drill a hole in your freezer and put a water line in and then buy a, and most likely, your freezer has a space in the back for you to put the water line
+
+[35:25] in, and most likely you can just put in a, um, you
+
+[35:29] could put in an ice maker because I've done that before. You know, get a filter and an ice maker and do it, you know, run like a quarter inch line of copper to it. And that's just going to make ice because really you want kind of crappy ice for your normal chilling. You don't want the big blocks and then you can just do like freezer things. But if you're gonna have, what you didn't mention is that you're gonna put seltzer water on tap. Now, assuming that you like seltzer water and who doesn't, right? Like I use a cold chiller and I have that in the bottom of a commercial ice machine.
+
+[36:00] So I always have decent ice on hand all the time because it makes it. And I use a very nice minute
+
+[36:08] walk. And the reason I like it is because you can, it makes a nice kind of large cube, it's weird octagonal shape.
+
+[36:14] It looks like those little Jello cup shapes, but, um, you can shut it off because they're very loud. So if someone in the house is like, oh, it's so loud, you can shut it off for like 2 hours and it'll come back on and continue to make ice. But that thing, I use it to chill, actually, when I make my big cooler of ice,
+
+[36:30] I use hot water from the tap and then throw those ice cubes into it to get the temperature down without including a lot of gas by pouring back and forth, then put the cooler in the
+
+[36:39] freezer and go from there. So the best from a budget standpoint is to aftermarket install your own ice maker into your freezer, because they make ice on a cycle, but don't require a lot of water and energy, and they actually store the ice without melting, whereas a commercial ice maker is constantly making ice and letting it melt down.
+
+[36:58] The quality of the ice in the home in the inside of the freezer ones is never quite as high. So you're always going to want to make some ice in a cooler, but it's a lot less energy intensive and a lot cheaper.
+
+[37:09] So that's my recommendations. Back next week was cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[37:26] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Quieres mejo internet, cox internet de tresientas megas, tienne las belocidades, rapidas y con fiables que buscas,
+
+[0:07] Perfecto para streaming y gaming y trabajardes de casa. Todo, por solo quuerente cinco, dolla resalme escondo regas cox mobile. Includia quipo de Wi-Fi, iguerantilla de precio de dos años entu plan. Nues peres, Gambia te oi a cox. The quiere cops mobile gig unlimited, carampier de pleciono, including cuestos cargos, belucidad de
+
+[0:27] datos, mobiles, reduces, esposa vente qui casalmes. Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. This is Michael Harlan Turkell, host of the food scene. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwich, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:00] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live, Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:08] Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network, roughly. Noon to 1250, something like that. We call it new-ish. New-ish, new-ish. Uh, joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah? We got Jack in the engineering booth. Thank goodness. I don't like to do the show without jacking the engineering booth. Oh thanks. know what I mean? I know. And we have a special guest with us today. We have Darren from meld meld. Now, meld, although it sounds like a delicious grilled cheese corporation is not. Do you like grilled cheese sandwiches? I do. What's not to like? Exactly, but I figure if you have any company name meld, you gotta like grilled cheese sandwiches. Otherwise, it's like, you know, it's gonna be problems. But anyway, they do not, in fact, manufacture, you know, it's a bad name for no offense for a grilled cheese sandwich corporation. Cheese boy. Isn't that the one that's on i95? Cheese boy. First of all, No, 1st of all, like, why are you making an a gendered thing? Like, why are you going gender on your grilled cheese sandwich? Grilled cheese sandwich is a non-gender, delicious item, in my opinion. You know, and I've passed by, not staffed only by boys. First of all, you want, like, an adult making your grilled cheese sandwiches anyway. I mean, like we do have labor laws. I'm just saying someone can call in and convince me that I'm wrong, but I just think it's kind of not a good name. Whereas, like, not a good cheese corporation, but like, Fud Rutgers is too hilarious not to like the name of, right? I can't believe that, like, there's 1000000s of dollars invested in a corporation called Fud Rutgers that makes food for people. You ever been to a Fud Rutgers? What's it like? It's sort of burgers where you top them yourself and most people put way too many condiments and ruin the burgers. So it's like a free fixings bar, I like Roy Rogers back in the 70s. Exactly. You remember the Roy Rogers? Prefixes bar, baby. So what I would do, you know, my Roy Rogers trick with the low quality salad bar ingredients they had for the free fixings, was I would
+
+[3:12] pilot high to ruin the burger, like you say, but then I would move it aside and then I would have a salad with my burger. I would take the toppings back off of the burger. And then... Yeah, there are all kinds of kinds of good tricks. When I was in grad school, we used to eat lunch at this terrible cafeteria on campus and it would come with
+
+[3:29] a little side salad, but if you put the dressing in the bottom of the little bowl 1st and then piled everything up on that, it would stick together and then you'd go to the table and flip it over and you'd have like, you know, 5 times the
+
+[3:40] salad anyone else would. That's some smart business. And that, that, friends and listeners, is the kind of thinking that is going to bring to your kitchen in the near
+
+[3:51] future meld. Now, meld, not being a grilled cheese corporation, what they do, and I'm actually,
+
+[3:56] like, frankly, excited to see it out because we have one here, is that it's the knob that automatically turns your gas stove range,
+
+[4:04] rather. up Can I do stoves too? Yeah, it does electric. It's not quite as perfect as it is on gas, but anything that's got a
+
+[4:13] knob, it can turn. Uh, but you can do ranges and ovens, gas, or electric. Correct. Anyway, it turns the knob for you so that you can have adequate temperature control. We had them on the phone. I don't know, a couple months ago, and some of the stuff I thought was interesting was, you know, as more and more users use
+
+[4:32] it. They'll be able to write more and more interesting algorithms like a rice cooker algorithm or all sorts of fun
+
+[4:39] stuff because once you, once you have computers controlling everything, you know, not only will they take over the world and turn us into their slaves instead of the other way around, but you can do interesting things like turn your gas range into a rice
+
+[4:51] cooker. Exactly. And so what we've got here is we've got one mounted on a little portable butane burner,
+
+[4:58] no butane involved at this point. Oh, there's no butane on it? No, Jack kind of vetoed that given the confines. What the hell, dude, these are rated for indoor cooking. You know, I just had the same freaking problem. I have to do a freaking demo in London in like a week and a
+
+[5:16] half , right, Stas? And I just got a text today. We can't get... I will read the text in its entirety just because of how irritating. Now, I'm not going to say who's involved because I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus specifically. But I had the same problem when we were, I was in London a couple of weeks ago where no one wants to get liquid nitrogen. And here's it. Okay, our issue with is with supplier delivery of liquid nitrogen and storage and health and safety issues in a live show
+
+[5:41] environment. Uh, it's not even the one. That was, uh, I really need to know the details of what you'll be doing
+
+[5:48] in order any ingredients you need, and here's what it says. Liquid nitrogen is possible. We need more details for risk assessment and method statement. If you could tell me more about your demo and how a video you could send. We need to answer such questions as how do we ensure liquid nitrogen has evaporated from the glass,
+
+[6:02] et cetera. You look at it. We dump out the glass and we look at it. Furthermore, when you add a liquid to the glass that had liquid nitrogen in it, If there is liquid nitrogen present, it will continue to smoke. You know, I've been to Booker and Dax. I've seen them manage the liquid nitrogen in the glass problem pretty well. Yeah, the only person that I'm aware of that was injured by the customer that was injured by the use of liquid nitrogen, the liquid nitrogen was intentionally placed in the glass and handed to her. Yeah, that was weird. Intentionally placed in the glass and handed to her. In all of the UK, is like on Flipdoodles, about using LN, right? It's a completely valid technique to use it, and they're all going freaking
+
+[6:48] pretzel, because some jackwad intentionally poured liquid nitrogen into some lady's drink. It's nuts. Well, you know, oh, there's all kinds of things we use that have created a problem when misused, but when used properly produce
+
+[7:06] grave results, right? Yeah, you know, I got to put a caller through who's been patiently waiting. let's put that thought on pause. All right, but I'm going to make hammers and bricks illegal because people hit each other with them sometimes. Call her, you're on the air. I can't hear you, man. Oh, hey, there you go. Can you hear me? I can hear you a little bit. Yeah. All righty. what's going on Hey, I'm a biodynamic CSA farmer down in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. which is in the eastern panhandle just outside of Washington, DC. And the reason I'm calling you is, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but the old wine CSA people, the original grassroots CSA
+
+[7:46] people, are having a pretty hard time nowadays in the DC area, those of us who hold
+
+[7:54] to the original standards of CSA, which is a soil farm and a group of people gathered around the farm to get food of equality that's not being produced by the open market system.
+
+[8:06] Right? Um, are being beat out by, um, out, outright, uh, commercial vegetable distributions, CSAs that aren't even organic, CSAs that don't have a farm or a farmer, uh, aggregators, which are things put together by the USDA that scoop up a bunch of crops from, um,
+
+[8:26] Just, I guess, commercially oriented farms. Put them out in share bags like a CSA does, but that's kind of all beside the point. I've been doing CSA since, I think 1990 was our 1st CSA. And, um, it's hard to hold on to a community in the DC area because it's such a, there's so much turnover in the area and so much
+
+[8:52] uh, house flipping and so people in neighborhoods change rather rapidly. But, uh, I, the reason I'm, I'm calling you, Dave, is because I've been listening to your program for a really long time, and I realize you have a, a really, um, great understanding of how the restaurant businesses
+
+[9:12] work, and uh, there's myself and several other farmers out here in West Virginia. They're probably going to go belly up this season that we don't find an outlet other than CSA for our produce. And uh, being tied to the land, try still trying to support a couple dozen CSA shares.
+
+[9:31] sold this year instead of our CSA's been up to 350 shares some years. I think it's 24 this year. Oh, my God. I wonder if there's some easy way for farmers who, like I said, are tied to the land, running around with irrigation hoses for 6 hours a day and
+
+[9:50] whatnot, to contact chefs who are interested in very flavorful local
+
+[9:56] foods. Well, first of all, to me, it would be the DC area. Give the name of your of your farm in case anyone in DC is looking to, you know, contact you. What's the name of your farm? It's fresh and local CSA. It is in local harvest. It is on the web, especially local, CSA.com. And it's 15 years on this soil with biodynamic techniques. All the produce is outrageously flavorful because of all of the minerals that are in the soil and available to the plants now. And how's the croppier looking this year? Were you hit by the same, like, late, late kind of spring that we got up here? Are you guys doing all right for crops? Well, we're okay with crops, but everything was late this year and it was, I don't know how it was for you. But for us, it went from freezing nights to 90 degree days in the same
+
+[10:48] week, I believe. Yeah, it was ping-ponging like crazy. I didn't, I've never seen anything quite like it. But, um, well, let me say this. I think that, you know, New York has a fantastic model in our green market. And, uh, you know, for a long time now, uh,
+
+[11:07] the, the advantage of the green market, right, is that you get kind of what I like to call a critical mass of suppliers
+
+[11:15] together. Now, the average person on the street thinks of the green market as a place that they can go
+
+[11:19] by veg, but, you know, all the chefs I know think of the green market as a place where they can interact directly with the farmer as supplier, right?
+
+[11:30] And the advantage from the farmer's standpoint is, obviously, they know in advance that they have to bring X, Y, and Z because they know the chefs are going to buy it because they have communication prior to them arriving at the farm. And, believe it or not, I think it's fairly efficient for the farmer because they, either they or, you know, someone that they're having doing
+
+[11:49] their their truck for them, really only has to give up one day. You know what I mean? Uh, to go and interact with uh, the chefs. And the chefs, it's very easy for them because they know that let's say you grow fantastic peppers,
+
+[12:05] right? And then they'll get the peppers from you, but let's say they know that they really like the, you know, the purple basil from some other
+
+[12:13] farmer. They can go get that. And so you get a critical mass together. The chef can make the run to the green market. Here, the main ones are Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. We're a huge market. But you know what I mean? But even one or 2 of those days would be enough to sustain it. But I think what you need is a critical mass of like-minded farmers. I mean, do you have a structure like that in DC for a green market the way that we operated? Because I think that's really the method that's allowed a lot of farmers here in New Jersey and the Hudson Valley really kind of stay connected with the chef community.
+
+[12:48] Yeah, well, there are several really good markets in DC, but they've been closed to new farmers for a lot of years. And so that's, uh, that's the problem. Huh, it's a really interesting problem. You know, I'd love to hear kind of, you know, and I haven't heard that flip side of it either. Like, I don't know whether there's a lot of farmers who would, you know, be itching to supply New York chefs, but
+
+[13:11] can't because they're getting shut out of our green market system. Specifically, the Union Square
+
+[13:15] green market is the big one we have here, which we've seen on 14th Street. I mean, there's a bunch of others that chefs also go to, but that's a kind of main one, but, you know, it's a very interesting question. I think it's something that needs to be kind of, uh, it needs to be kind of addressed and I would encourage, you know, any chefs in the DC area to, you know, reach out to you, anyone
+
+[13:33] that's like listening. you know, what, you know, you have something to do? I mean, I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, just giving a perspective from Seattle, which is where I'm
+
+[13:42] from. Um, you know, Pike Place Market, it's 100 and something years old. It's kind of the big famous one that people know about, but there are a lot of other markets. And I think, you know, if you're looking for where the chefs are going in Seattle, at least it's not there, it's probably, you know, more like the Ballard market on Sundays and
+
+[14:00] and there are a few others. But, uh, you know, they've they've expanded to the point that, uh, even though pipe place
+
+[14:08] may be shut out to to new vendors. You know, some of these other markets around town are available. And I think, you know, your, you're more likely to see uh, Seattle chefs probably walking around and sampling what's uh, what's available in Ballard than you are at Pike Place these days.
+
+[14:25] Right. I mean, one thing I know for sure is that chefs will, chefs will seek out and go through great pains and trouble to seek out the good ingredients. However, once they seek it out. The supply chain to them needs to be relatively convenient because it needs to be, it needs to be able to be gotten to the restaurant like on a kind of a regular or semi-regular base. Now they'll deal with, you know, they'll deal with, I don't have any potatoes this week. you know, they, you know, the whatever. We got a, we had a failed crop field. They'll deal with this. You know what I mean? But it's more like, you know, they can't drive, you know, 50 miles to go to go get
+
+[15:04] there to go get their stuff because they're simultaneously getting from a bunch of different suppliers. So, I mean, I think it's just a question of figuring out how you can, uh, you know, gather like enough, like-minded farmers in, you know, in some sort of new venue, and it doesn't have to be like super organized, or even super nice, as long as the chefs know that it's going to be there and know that they can count on sending like one
+
+[15:32] person, uh, over there and they can, and they can pick up what they need from like 4 or 5 suppliers that they've, um, developed a
+
+[15:40] relationship with. Um, but, you know, one thing I know about chefs, at least the people that like I deal with, and I know is that they are monsters for
+
+[15:50] quality, and they love, absolutely love having personal relationships with farmers.
+
+[15:55] Love it. You know? completely agree. Yeah. Yeah. So let me throw in there. I don't have any problem driving down to DC if we're talking about some sort of scale. Right. Yeah, it's just a question of making, of, like, making it of, of, like, you know, germinating the idea of planning the seat, like, reaching that critical mass. I mean, there's going to be, the real problem is, is that either way, from the chef's side and from the farmer's side, there's going to be like a time period where everyone's sucking wind trying to get
+
+[16:25] enough enough of a critical mass to make it worthwhile for everyone. And I mean, I hope someone in DC, you know,
+
+[16:32] hears this or, you know, I mean, if you're calling someone else and has like some sort of, uh, uh, and you know, and you know, Jack, this is something that heritage radio could take on as a as a problem too, because, you know, a lot of people
+
+[16:45] on this network are interested in this kind of problem as well. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Why don't you leave your information with Jack? And then we'll, um, we'll try to see if we have anyone that, um, is more of a specific expert in this,
+
+[16:59] but, uh, Yeah, absolutely. So info at heritageradionetwork.org is going to be the best way because we're going to drop the call and go to another caller, but definitely shoot us an email and we will stay in
+
+[17:09] touch. All right, thanks so much for gone. It's an interesting subject we have that we haven't addressed here on the radio. All right, thanks so much. All right, cool. Thanks, Jack. So back to mail to have one. Oh, we have another caller? Is the 2nd caller on the line? Oh, call her. on the air. Hi. My name is Rob. I'm calling because I'm looking to set up a giraffe soda system. Right? I wanted to know what sort of things. Well, you're cutting in and out. I heard you're setting up a draft soda system and you want to know certain things, and then when you actually said what a certain things was, you cut out. Sorry, I started to. Yeah. Specifically, I...
+
+[17:52] Oh my goodness. One second. Like, it's literally like, I hear the word specifically, and then all of the actual specifics are trailing off. Yeah, give us a ring back if you get. Wait, wait, wait. you there? can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. Cell service is a wretched thing, is it not? All right. So okay, so what are the specific problems you're worried about? I'm looking to set up a pre-mixed system where I'll be running a root beer syrup that I
+
+[18:18] made. Right. 20 ingredient root beer syrup that has a lot of, uh,
+
+[18:22] solituce ice. Right. We're so close. It was so close. So close. Pre-mix system with root beer. All right, listen, I can't hear what your actual questions are, but you
+
+[18:40] get, like, you can call back with the questions or I'll tell you some of the problems with root beer.
+
+[18:45] Root beer is known. The world over by anyone that's ever made it to be the absolute hardest thing to clean out of your lines,
+
+[18:54] right? So, like, if you're doing, if you're doing a corny keg with root beer, like, you need to throw all of the rubber in your tank needs to be thrown away if you want to switch
+
+[19:03] flavors, all of it. You know what I mean? So you got to throw away the ring gasket, uh, even I know some people replace uh, the uh, the ceiling parts of the uh,
+
+[19:12] of the ball lock valves because they say that anything that is even mildly absorbent will absorb flavors from the root beer. This includes the polyethylene tubes that you use into your cold plate. I know that you can wash the actual cold plate out, but it takes kind of a
+
+[19:30] lot to do. I'm assuming these are the kind of problems. You might be having a phone. I'll address another problem you might be having. If you're using, so the answer there is just, you know, dedicate a system to root beer.
+
+[19:41] You know what I mean? Dedicate a corny keg to root beer, dedicate. Remember, I'm a huge advocate of 2 cold plate circuits for every flavor, not
+
+[19:48] one, two. So I would always get a cold plate that has at least twice as many circuits as you have flavors. And the reason for that is twofold. One, the extra trip through the, uh, and this is gonna address the 2nd problem that you might be having with root beer. The 2nd trip through the cold plate gives it a longer
+
+[20:07] line, and that longer line tends to slow it down a little bit and cause less foam out on
+
+[20:12] the output. The other problem. The other thing it solves, it gets it colder and getting it colder by a good chunk by several degrees, also reduces your foam out on the
+
+[20:23] output and plus makes it colder, which, duh, do you want your root beer warm
+
+[20:27] stars? Do you like root beer? Oh, wow, good. I like it too. That's not to like. Exactly. much like grilled cheese. In fact, root beer and grilled cheese. might go well together. Anyway, um, so, um, the other the other problem you're going to have is, uh, with foaming. So anytime you're making your own root beer flavors with, you know, tree and bark pieces, these things tend to foam like a
+
+[20:52] loony tune. They're really foamy. And in fact, foam is one of the characteristics of root beer, a
+
+[20:58] foamy mug of root beer. But the problem is, is you have to keep it somewhat in line. And I would not suggest adding, you know, um, like silicone derivatives, um,
+
+[21:09] anti-filming agents, just because I haven't found them really to work, at least in alcoholic beverages. I mean, they'll kill foam maybe in a glass, but they're not
+
+[21:17] going to kill, I don't think it's going to cause your foam out problems on a thing. I think what your main issues are with filming is realize you are going to have some filming. Then, instead of, you have to get a very good pre-mixed soda valve, I recommend the ones that
+
+[21:30] CN Becker makes, but, you know, you can get, uh, and by the way, kudos to you for doing
+
+[21:34] pre-mix because I think most post-mixed soda sucks. But, like, uh, anyway, so I would get a very good valve by Becker. It's going to have, like, a very long in the back, torpedo shaped compensator that's going to gently take it from the pressure in the tube to atmospheric
+
+[21:50] pressure, and it's going to save you a lot of your foam out problems. Like I say, cold is going to solve your film out problems, but also clarity. So if you don't have a centrifuge, which I'm assuming you don't. Centrifuge is going to knock out a lot of your particulates and really help here, but I would just take the trouble to really filter your bark stuff
+
+[22:09] through, like, you know, the finest strainers that you have, like coffee, even if it takes a 1000000 years. And eventually, I would get a centrifuge because it can spin all the particulate matter out and that's really going to solve a lot of your foaming problems. I'm assuming you had one of those 2 problems. If you didn't, call me back and we'll talk about it. And Jack, should we come back right after the commercial break with our demonstration of no. Let's squeeze one more call who's been waiting and then go to break. All right, caller, you were on the air. Hi, I thought a question about acids in draft cocktails. Oh, nice. I'm sorry, not draft, but I want to carbonate in bottles and cocktails. But all the suggestions, all suggestions you have liquid intelligence require fresh lime juice. And as we know, storing fresh lime juice makes me the devil. So I'm curious about acid alternatives that will bottle well and keep. I'll give you a couple. I will give you a couple of suggestions. And this one, you know, I hadn't really thought of by the time I wrote the book, but, you know, I like fresh lime juice. I also kind of like lime cordial, right? And lime cordial, you know, so, and literally at the bar, what I, what we do to make the line cordial is I take the leftover clarified lime juice that we have.
+
+[23:26] And then I boil it with sugar and a couple of peels of
+
+[23:31] lime. And right away, the cordial is good. And it actually ages after a couple of weeks, I think it's even like a little bit better. And so that's a stable acid source. Now, it doesn't taste like fresh lime, right? So it's not fresh lime flavor. But it's still good flavor. It's different than, and it takes a little bit of education because someone who's looking to have a fresh line flavor. If you give them a cordial flavor, they're like, this tastes like cordial. you're like, yes, but cordial tastes good. You know what I mean? It's the inbetween stuff that doesn't taste good. Another option is you can bolster. I'm a huge fan of including actual citrus in the drinks
+
+[24:15] because as opposed to just acids. So you can do some cordial and then bolster it with some acids, like a
+
+[24:21] citric malic blend. Some acid combinations, especially ones that are barely soluble. So like if you make the champagne acid from liquid intelligence, which is a, uh, a mixture of,
+
+[24:35] um, it's a 3%, um, a 3% lactic acid and 3% tartaric acid blend, like that actually blend at that acidity tends to throw
+
+[24:45] crystals. you know, because it's kind of at the limit of it of a solubility of some of that stuff. And I don't know why, but maybe that's why when you carbonate with champagne
+
+[24:54] acid, you tend to get foamy drinks. Something about that lactic, uh, tartaric blend causes foamy drinks. And also, when you're bottling something carbonated, like I've noticed certain drinks,
+
+[25:08] like Campari, the bitterness is not stable when bottled under acidic conditions. I don't know why. I've never, you know, I've never asked someone with a mass spec to look at it, so I don't know
+
+[25:19] why, but it, you know, it's definitely true. So, you know, I would, I would start with, um, augmented citrus, so you can use like, uh, clarified orange juice, taste terrible. Not terrible. Tastes like sunny D. It tastes like tang, right? It has all of its characters stripped. But you can take that and bolster it with citric and Malik, and you can have a very nice citric, you know, citrus flavor that'll last for a while. Or if you do cordials and you can augment cordials, like I say, with
+
+[25:48] acid to bolster the freshness level of it by increasingly boosting the acidity
+
+[25:51] higher, so you use less of the cordial, and it is stable as far as I can tell for a long time. Great. Are there any non-citric things I should look at, like, you know, just the things that aren't citrus at all? Sure. So, I mean, like, any sort of juice can be bolstered, can have its acidity bolstered, right? So, to kind of greater or lesser effect. The trick with it is is figuring out what acids you're going to add and not adding so much that they turn kind of fake, right? But you can bolster grape juice. I mean, I tend to like things that have characteristics. They have like a character because this way, when you bolster the acidity of that, like, it helps to, like, if the fruitiness is there, the actual fruitiness from fruit is there, the acidity doesn't taste fake, whereas it can taste more like a soda-based acidity, like an actual, like a flavor, like
+
+[26:44] an just, it can taste more like an added acidity. If there isn't some sort of natural fruit there to back it up. If you want to go dry, obviously, the cola acid, the acid
+
+[26:53] is using colas is phosphoric acid. I would say that you, you know, it's one of the few acids that doesn't kind of scale directly, wait for weight. You know, you need to use a little bit less of the phosphoric acid. and it's typically sold in very concentrated solution. So I would take it down. Like you can buy it as like 85% phosphoric acid solution and I would take it down to like 6 or less and then start mixing with it at those lower levels because Stas doesn't like the phosphoric acid,
+
+[27:22] right? Are you a coal ahead? Like, do you like cola? Yeah, so you like mile like a mild amount of phosphoric acid, but like usually when bartenders try to add phosphoric acid to a drink, they hit it too hard.
+
+[27:32] And you don't like that intense dry. an intensely dry, non-fruity acidity. Um, But yeah, give those give those a shot. Great, thanks. That's very helpful. All right, good luck with it. Let us know tweet on in if you get any good results. I will. Bye. All right, back back from the break with meld on cooking issues.
+
+[28:19] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle,
+
+[28:26] Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them,
+
+[28:53] and heritage foods is honored, to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system.
+
+[29:03] And to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[29:11] chops is the righteous kind from healthy animals. of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact, animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. I would love to get Steve Jenkins and Alec Baldwin in the same room and have them
+
+[29:38] have like a voice off. Wouldn't that be awesome? Alex, if you're out there. Get them right here on the show. That's right. Alec, if you're out there. Let me see you dance. For those of you who are friends, who like the Prince's Black album. you ever listen to that? Yeah, yeah. Bob George is an intensely weird song. If you're out there, let me see your dance. Okay, so let's look at the melt. I wish it had some freaking flame on it, Jack. Well, anyway, it's Jack. Why do you not let him have the butane in here, man? listen. It's not my restaurant. not the 1st place that has not let me use butane. It's not my restaurant, you know, I can't. Let's see it in Stas, can you make flame noises? No. So 1st off, I've got the knob mounted here on this little
+
+[30:29] butaneless burner. So you can't see it. What we have here is a butane picnic burner, which, strangely enough, if you actually read the NFPA fire codes, this is rated as a fine piece of indoor cooking
+
+[30:41] equipment because the butane canister is contained and it sits on a table and can't be knocked
+
+[30:46] over. I've gone through these codes a 1000000 times when I was doing the Sears all work. But anyway, just saying. Okay, so what I'm going to do now is just the sort of 1st manual thing. So you can see the knob turned itself. All I'm doing is doing it the old-fashioned way and actually just telling it to go to a certain percentage.
+
+[31:04] But what I'm going to do now instead is I'm going to set it. I'm going to tell it, okay, I'd like to go to a temperature of 35 degrees
+
+[31:13] C, and that's not very warm, but it's warmer than it is in here. It's 26 right now. So I'm going to touch the end of this. And that, uh, this is the temperature probe that goes in the pot or pan, and the temperature's...
+
+[31:29] He's holding the probe in his hand and we're going to look at the knob and it's going to, it's going to turn on. Right. So as the, uh, it's actually on high now because it's trying to raise the temperature, but as my body heat actually raises the temperature of this, it's going to start turning it down because it's thinking, oh, I've got the gas
+
+[31:47] on, uh, and it's making the temperature go up. So there it goes. You see it starting to turn itself down. as we approach the target temperature. And is it auto tuning now or what's it doing? Exactly. So it's, it is what it's trying to do is get to the temperature I want without
+
+[32:06] overshooting because if it overshoots, it's much harder than even if it turns the gas essentially to 0 to come down in
+
+[32:13] temperature, it's much easier to go up. So it's biased to not overshoot and to make these very small adjustments. Right, but does it learn your range or is it constantly learning? Both. It's, it learns your range to some degree, but also if you put, you know, a big 12 quart stock pot on there, it's going to behave a little differently
+
+[32:34] than a little, you know, half quart saucier. Now, how long is it going to continue to theoretically dump gas into the air with no flame before
+
+[32:42] it's like, no. Well, at this point, it's my body heat's not actually quite hot enough for it. So I'll turn down the target temperature a little bit. And now it's actually has turned it all the way down. So for demo purposes, actually, these butane burners are sort of the worst of all possible worlds, but
+
+[33:04] it also stresses a system, which I really like, because if we can handle this, we can handle anything. The reason it's the worst case is because from 0 to full blast on this is a rotation of only about 40 degrees. Right? Whereas most ranges, year it's 180, maybe even 270. And so the precision that we have to get is much higher on this. So it's actually running it at now 4%. It thinks it's one degree shy of its target. So, and like, will this thing light? Or do you still need to manually go through the click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. You still have to do that manually. So what happens is when you start up the app and choose a recipe before any cooking step, what it's going to do is it's going to say, turn it on, and you turn your knob, click, click,
+
+[33:52] click, like you said, it goes and then leave it at any temperature or any heat level you want.
+
+[33:58] You then hit a button on the app that says, okay, it's on. I'm handing you control. The app will then say, oh, I see it's at 47%. But actually, at the moment, I'd like it to be at 92% and it'll move it there. And then it will continue adjusting throughout the whole execution of that step of the
+
+[34:15] recipe. And then for certain recipes like, for example, we've got a caramel recipe, there's a video of it on our
+
+[34:22] website where you want to caramelize the sugar, but then you want to bring the temperature down, add the cream and butter. And
+
+[34:28] so it knows that there are different target temperatures for different steps. And as you move through the recipe and do the various steps, it will adjust the temperature.
+
+[34:38] It's sort of like you never have to touch the knob. Someone is there doing it for you. You're putting ingredients in, taking things out, and so on. When are you shipping these guys? October. Yeah, I'd love to mess with one. Yeah, we we'll we'll do our best to try and get you one
+
+[34:54] a little sooner if we can, but yeah, some really cool techniques that we are working on. Um, So, for example, you know, people, I think, a lot of times confuse precision temperature cooking with low temperature
+
+[35:09] cooking because, you know, people are familiar with or people who listen to this show certainly are familiar with circulators and what they
+
+[35:16] do. Um, circulators, uh, obviously don't work particularly well over
+
+[35:20] 100 C because, uh, Unless you use oil, but they're no longer they're no longer speced out to use oil. Exactly. Whereas with meld, we can put a pot of oil on there. And you can do all kinds of things ranging from, you know, relatively low temperature stuff.
+
+[35:35] So we've been playing around a little bit with poaching things in oil around like 120 C, um, and then you can
+
+[35:43] go, obviously, all the way up to, you know, frying things at 350, 375,
+
+[35:47] 4 hours. The classic, everyone's always wanted to put a circulator for years. Can you put a circulator front? well, the metal ones. They'll handle the temperature, but they're crap at frying because they, they're, they're, even if they had the power, they're not designed to have the recovery rate that a
+
+[36:02] fryer needs. Could you tell this guy, like, could you, is it, in other words, could you go for, for minimize recovery time, but still not completely blast out your oil?
+
+[36:13] Like, could you have like a middle? I mean, 2 burner fryers are so freaking good because they have such a high surface area to heat out. This is why everyone at home, like, I'm sorry, you're just not going to have as good a fried stuff as someone who has a tube fryer. You're just not. You know what I mean? It's not gonna happen. You don't have a cold zone. You don't have to, you can do good fried stuff, but you're not going to have, you're not going to have all night good fry the way that you can in a tube fryer. But can you... The key for we can do a really good job. The key is not overloading, and that's the key in, you know, any frying application, right? If you if you have a 2 quart pot of oil and you dump in, I don't know, 20 chicken wings, you know, it's going to be hard for even your 15,000 BTU burner on your stove at home to
+
+[37:00] recover from that quickly. And even if you could, even if you could, you don't have the surface area of pan to oil to not
+
+[37:08] locally, so my burners at home, they're kind of stupid high. You know, they're way higher than they're supposed to be because the knucklehead that installed the stove didn't put the regulator on it, right? So, you know, I can, I, it looks like a jet engine when I turn on my burners, which is actually... It is, but like, it's irritating because I get a lot of flame out on the low end. So it makes it hard to do kind of like the more delicate things. Not that I like to do delicate things, does. Dont worry. But like I'm saying, you know, I have I have exactly the same thing on my oven at home, which is which is great. I have this vintage sort of 1990 oven that it's a double wall
+
+[37:45] oven. The top one is digital in the bottom one's analog. I think because, you know, digital controls were too expensive than to actually put it on both ovens. And the analog one on the bottom, the knob goes to 500, like most home oven knobs do. But the little catch that makes it stop there is gone. And you can just keep on turning it. And so I can actually crank it up to around 700 for pizza. Take that safety You know what I did that I shouldn't mention, but I literally put a, I literally put a thermostat bypass on my, on my oven. So just like thermostat, thermostat. But here was the rule, right? I had to make it such that, like, any normal, so my last oven in my last place, when you went there, uh, people are like, I don't want to cook in your oven. Your oven's too complicated. I have to know how to program a lot low PID controller to do it. I'm like, so what? learn how to program a lot, learn. You know what I mean? Learn. You know, it's like, you know, you know how to drive a car. You can't program my oven. You know what I mean? That was my attitude. But this one, one of my things was, A, it had to look like a normal oven, so it couldn't have wires and stuff sticking out of it fine. And it turns out I really didn't need a lot of control on the super high end for pizza because it just needs to be freaking hot, right? Exactly. So it's and then it's, well, is it in there for a minute or a minute and a half . Yeah, yeah. So, so the simplest method was to hell with it and just literally put
+
+[39:10] a, a ball valve bypass onto, onto the thermostat, and then when it's, you know, when it's horizontal, I just tell people not to touch
+
+[39:19] that. And it's a normal oven until I turn it into, you know, uh, you know, flame on mode and then it's, then it's just, you know, in real thermal runaway. Not like the puny thermal runaway that you use on your 500 degree thermostat thermal runaway. I'm talking like thermal run away. It doesn't actually run away. It doesn't melt itself into an ingot, but it gets close. It's like, you know, it's actually too hot. It gets up to 900. I have to throttle it. But anyway, back to the frying problem. So with my ridiculously high output range, right? I still can't get as good a frying in a normal pot situation because I just can't get the surface area contact with the oil
+
+[39:55] in the pan to have it not abuse. I mean, I get slightly better results in a wok because I have a larger surface area for it to hit. Of course, the oil degrades because it's against a non-stainless
+
+[40:06] walk. My walk's not stainless. So they rolled the grades quickly there. You can't win. You know what I mean? But it would be interesting. I'm sure you could win better if you had a control app that was taking it up to the brink of being destroyed and then, but not like
+
+[40:21] over, because in general, 100% of the time when I watch cooks try to fry on a range, they over, they jack it too high to get the recovery rate, which I understand, but
+
+[40:33] it always goes too far over the line and there's a kind of a porpoise effect with the temperature where it goes over and then under. And I think people underestimate how much physical abuse the oil is taking during each cycle of
+
+[40:47] overheating along with like salt and flour and burnt particles that are in
+
+[40:51] that. It's just like. Absolutely. And going back to what I was saying before, that's why we bias our algorithms to avoid overshooting. So we, you know, talking about frying things all night. So back in May, sort of to thank a bunch of our Kickstarter supporters, we had a Cinco DeMeld party and we were making tortilla chips on
+
+[41:13] it on a burner very much like this, but with butane. all night long and were able to, you know, to keep that level of control. And, you know, was was there some degradation in the oil, you know, 3 hours later? Yeah, of course, but, um, you know, but but those chips were still good. Yeah, and by the way, fun fact about tortilla chips, for those of you out there who make tortilla chips, you should, 1st of all, you should make your own tortilla chips. Absolutely. There are a 1000 times, and I'm not talking about, I mean, you should also learn to nixtomalize things, but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean, just go buy the crappy Maseka, not the crap, but you know what I'm saying. Maseka, fresh tortillas, and fry them up because they're thicker and they're crunchier. That's the way I like. You know what I mean? And they're cheap as hell. So cheap. But, um, The true fact about tortillas is that they're going to absorb a lot of will. That's how they're supposed to work. That's what they do. So you don't need to go French fry temperature when you're cooking a tortilla. People overheat their oil when they're doing tortillas on a regular basis. In fact, next time you make tortillas, I want you to do this. I want you potato chips, the same thing. People go over temp on their potato chips. Because really, when you're frying a French fry, you have a crust and an interior, right? Right. So you need to fry at a temperature that maintains the crust without shafting the interior. That's why it needs to be so high. Whereas in a tortilla chip or a potato chip, you're making a nice crunchy thing, but it is entirely the crust. And what you're doing is a moisture removal operation. And so to do moisture removal, which is actually tough on oil, frankly. You know what I mean? E especially with cycling, thermal cycling. The next time you start tortilla chips, I want you to start your 1st batch in cold
+
+[42:55] oil. Just like you would for a potato chip batch. And, and, and you will not be able to tell the difference between that batch and the batch that started in hot
+
+[43:03] oil. Why? Because tortilla chips are going to absorb oil, period. It's going to happen. going to go in all the spots where the water used to be that you're getting rid of. Right. And any sort of like intermediate absorption you might get when you throw a tortilla chip into locally cooled oil is
+
+[43:23] going to be blasted out by the tremendous water evaporation. You're going to get as soon as the local temperature of the oil around the tortilla chip gets above the boiling point of water.
+
+[43:30] I guarantee it. Don't take my word for it. Go cook some tortillas. You know what I mean? Yeah, the water evaporation thing is a really interesting point more generally too. It's that, you know, as we've been playing with this and kind of understanding how it works and looking at the feedback loops. You know, a lot of, a lot of cooking techniques are really all about, uh, the heat being sucked out by the evaporation of water, right? So, you know, raising a gram of water, one degree takes a calorie,
+
+[44:02] but boiling it off takes 540. So, um, essentially, when you're, when you're cranking up the heat to maintain temperature, uh, you are in almost all cases doing that to compensate for it being sucked out by evaporation and understanding that then,
+
+[44:19] as thing, you know, as you stop seeing the bubbling and and, and all the steam coming off, uh, and then you watch as the knob is dialing back, you know, it doesn't see the steam, but it, but it, uh, it's encountering the same
+
+[44:33] thermodynamics. Uh, you realize, you know, that's what it's really all about, um, for a lot
+
+[44:39] of a lot of cooking techniques. And then the, um, you know, controlling those and and do getting to the right temperature and recovering and so on. Um, to your point about, you know, you you watch cooks do it at home and they porpoise, they go up and down. We saw the exact same thing. So when we very 1st started down the road that eventually became meld, the 1st thing we looked at was, well, what if we could sense the temperature in a pot and pan in any of various ways and transmit that to an app and then people could look and say, oh, it's too hot, it's too
+
+[45:14] cold. And so we'd give people, you know, pretty good cooks, the
+
+[45:18] simple task of bring this pot to this particular temperature. And they'd try and do it and they'd go up and they'd overshoot and they'd dial it back and they'd undershoot and
+
+[45:28] they'd go back and forth. 20 minutes later, they'd say, all you've done is you've told me I'm a terrible cook. You haven't given me any tool to do anything about it. And that's where then the knob came. We said, okay, we've got to actually get the kind of feedback loop and get the kind of control that you get in sous
+
+[45:48] vide and why is it that we're still out there, you know, following recipes that
+
+[45:53] say put a pot on medium when that means, you know, what that means on your stove and what it means on mine could be 200 degrees
+
+[46:01] apart? Right. Well, yeah, those kind of recipes that say things like, like the ones that are hilarious are the gas mark recipes where they actually, whatever, but it's supposed to mean something in the
+
+[46:08] UK. I don't know. But, um, yeah, I mean, like you still, the issue is, is that recipes like that are still written, assuming that kind of we're all a community of cooks and we know what we're talking about. You know what I mean? Which is not always the case when someone's, in fact, I don't know, I mean, I wish I had some time. You know what, Jack, we're going to have to do a ketchup episode. Yeah, let's do one. Because I didn't get to any of the written questions. I want to talk about breaking down chickens. Because you know that I was had someone over my age. didn't know how to break down a chicken. We gotta go, though. All right, listen. and I want talk about scythes. I learned about sides. You know, the tool side, like Fear the Reaper? cutting down wheat? Yeah, the freaking amazing. I looked at it. This is a joke. Who the heck wants a side? I need to go get a, you know, a weed whacker or something. Amazing pieces of equipment, but I can't talk about it now, uh, because we have to go. But thank you, Darren, for Melt for coming in, showing us this up into the equipment. We'll do a ketchup episode cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[47:19] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member. visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritage foodsusa.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:39] Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday, this time, exactly at Freaking 12. How do you like that Jack? Incredible. Yeah. On the Heritage Radio Network. We can stay probably till what? It's like 1250 until we get the evil stairs. Yeah, you got a full show today. Yeah. Well, we need it because we have so many dang questions and we haven't been able to establish a ketchup
+
+[0:58] episode. Although someday we should literally do an episode about the condiment
+
+[1:02] ketchup. Yeah, so many people was going to sponsor, a ketchup sponsor was going to sponsor. Yeah, but then we had all kinds of like turmoil about that. Too fast a turnover. Joined, as usual, witness dossier, the Hammer Lopez. Howdy. Hi. And we got Jack in the engineering booth today. Who was that? who the other person in Engineering Booth was from the back of his? Maggie, and it's her 1st day, 1st hour as an intern here. Wow. Well, have her say hi. Dumping it right in. Hey, Maggie. Yeah? Where are you, where do you hail from, Maggie? Brooklyn. Brooklyn. Are you hipster Brooklyn or old school Brooklyn? Like suburban mom, Brooklyn, or ex-suburban mom, Brooklyn? Wait, so you like you are next suburban mom? No, my mom is. Oh, so you moved here from the suburbs. Yeah. which ones? New Jersey. Ah, the great state of New Jersey. The Garden State, like a Nice Jersey or a Turnpike Jersey. Uh, nice jersey. No offense to turnpike jersey. Call your questions in too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We have a plethora of questions to answer. Going to London, by the way, on Monday. We have an event at Imbibe, live, 2015, uh, on Monday at the Hotel Dandelion, which is not spelled
+
+[2:23] like we spell it. Is that how the Brits spell dandelion, you think, stars? Maybe. It's like dandelion, right? Dandelion. Like a lion. Wait, a lion. We spell it like a lion. They spell it a lion. They spell it like Lyon. Like Dandy Leon or something like this. Maybe that's maybe it's French. I thought it sounded like you were saying dandy loin. Like a dandy loin. Ooh, a dandelion. That would be kind of a gross thing for us to talk about here on the, it would fit quite well with
+
+[2:50] the uh, with the jetty monologues, though, that we went through. Not to reopen old wounds. Okay. So, let's what? What? Nothing. What? Nothing. Yeah, nothing. By the way, but before we start, even though I don't have time to talk about anything other than stray cooking, Nastasia and I are devotees of the illegal
+
+[3:17] firework, and Nastasia just found out that she will have access. I didn't buy. I made the trek to the great state of New Hampshire where one can live free and die and purchase almost any kind of firework with the exception. Jack, no bottle rockets in New Hampshire. Really? No. No, no. You can buy a, you can buy a 500 grams worth of black powder packed into tubes in a box that shoot 200 feet into the air and explode in
+
+[3:41] balls of fire. But a bottle rocket? That's dangerous, bro. Wow. Yeah. Like makes no sense, right? It does not. It makes no sense. Like the rules are so crazy. They also don't allow, this does make sense. They don't allow MAs and cherry bombs. They don't want little kids like blowing their fingers off, I guess. Bottle rockets, why? Because kids shoot them at each other? mean, that's what we used to do. I don't know. So, Stars, I found out, though, that Pennsylvania, the rules in Pennsylvania
+
+[4:07] are, by the way, for those of you that don't live near the New York area, like New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and I think
+
+[4:15] Delaware, are like the firm block of stick in the muds regarding fireworks and their enjoyment.
+
+[4:21] Like there's just not available here. Connecticut recently changed their laws, allowed fireworks again, and then disallowed some again. So now, in Connecticut, you can only buy like, you can't buy Roman candles. You can only buy fountains, those things on the ground that shoot up sparks and you're like, man, I wish this would blow up in the air. Red stars, isn't that what you're thinking when you see it? Man, I wish this would blow up inside of the air. What about Rhode Island? No, Rhode Island is part of the, it's part of the like block of evil. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, imagine if Rhode Island, here's a suggestion to you, Rhode Island, our smallest state, why don't you allow, 1st of all, you
+
+[4:57] have like lots of great places to like fireworks in Rhode Island. Why don't you make them legal in Rhode Island? And then literally the entire New York, Connecticut, metro area, instead of having to drive all the way to New Hampshire, could go to the great state of Rhode Island to buy their
+
+[5:13] fireworks. Anyway, Pennsylvania, Jackie, might find this enjoyable. The place closest place is right near Port Jervis, New York. It's only an hour, 50 outside of New York or something like this. No, Rhode Island is the same as Connecticut. Oh, you can buy the ground sparklers. Yeah, okay. Wah, wow. But anyway, but my point is, uh, in Pennsylvania, it is illegal, if you are a Pennsylvania resident, it is illegal for you to buy the
+
+[5:37] big, bad aerial fireworks that we all want, right? However, if you show up in Pennsylvania and provide an out-of-state license, they will sell you anything. Anything. Wait, even if it's like a New York license? Yeah. That's what's messed up. They don't care. If it's legal in your state or not. I mean, how do they know where you're going to light it? But for some reason, if you show up with a Pennsylvania license, even though you swear on a stack of
+
+[6:01] Bibles that you're going to light these things off in a state where it's legal, right? If you are a Pennsylvania resident, you are, as we like to say, SOL. You can apply for a permit as a Pennsylvania resident to purchase them. laws are so, so weird, you know what I mean? I mean, I realize that fireworks are dangerous. Lots of things are dangerous. Fireworks are also, what's the word I'm looking for? awesome. Awesome, yeah. Yeah, awesome. I think that's the word else. Do you know that I looked it up. The National Fire, uh, the NFPA, National Fire Protection Agency,
+
+[6:30] Prevention Agency. Anyway, the people who make the fire codes, they have a whole campaign, you know,
+
+[6:36] ban consumer fireworks, right? Because people are injured and some people are killed every. You know what the majority of the one single thing that causes more injuries with fireworks than any other Jack? Any guesses? Um, like, I don't know, drinking? Well, yeah. Sparklers. Oh, I see. Sparklers. Really? Yeah. How do you injure yourself on a sparkler? Well, like the classic case is some parent gave their three-year-old a sparkler and then turned away, turned away, she walked into
+
+[7:03] their into their house, dropped it in a trash bucket, burned down the house and killed somebody. Yeah. There was a funny moment once where my girlfriend, we were at her country house and she wanted to light some incense in the kitchen or in the living
+
+[7:15] room rather, and she lit a sparkler instead. Wow, that's different. They look kind of similar, I guess. They do. They look exactly the same. Yeah. So, so like, then do you have all sorts of evil ideas of pranking temples? Go to go to like a, uh, you know, a temple and put a bunch of, uh, people like, what? What? It's supposed to be peaceful, Tom, sparklers are nice. It's crazy that most fireworks are allowed in southern and Midwest states. No, no, no, no. It's every state, but like the New England stick in the mud states. And, you know, New York, mid-Atlantic, California allows some, I thought. No, they're the same as Connecticut and Red Island. First of all, like California, like irresponsible in a lot of places to light fireworks because of the immense, like, fire hazards because of the tremendous drought going on. I mean, a lot of it has to do with the fact that wherever there's a lot of people in close
+
+[8:09] proximity and the assumption is no one has any common sense and you can hurt a lot more people when you're, you know, I'm not saying fireworks should be legal in New York City. too is fine, which is even more dry. I guess it's flat. And like desert. Not that you don't have trees, whatever. I not going to get into it. not going to get into it. Like, you know, where my, where, you know, where I used to go where my wife's family was living in Arizona. I mean, what are you gonna burn down? You know what I mean? Yeah. Burn, you know, burn some teddy bear choya down. Thank God. Those things are the devil. You know what I mean? Anyway, Tom wrote in. No offense if you like teddy bear choy cheese. Like, you know, someone's going to be like, I like teddy bear choya. Well, then go kick one and have it go through your freaking foot and like try to have fun, get all those spines out. Nobody likes Teddy Bertoya. don't know. You know what choyas are? The little captains, the really fuzzy ones that the teddy bears are the ones that are so insidious that the claim, not true, is that they kind of jump out and get at you
+
+[9:01] because, like, you brush up near it. They'll go through like leather shoes. Those spines will somehow work their way through. you know how Choi is spelled, right? It's spelled Chala. Okay. Yeah. anyway. Tom wrote in about, apparently, I missed the piece question. So, unfortunately, you missed answering my question on centrifuging piece. He also had the 100 hour oxtail question where the bag was inflating. I haven't figured out. So the thing was, he was cooking the oxtails at a fairly high temperature, high enough to kill bacteria for like 100
+
+[9:30] hours, and the bags blew up kind of like one day into the process.
+
+[9:33] But what I don't recall, you should write back. I don't know whether the, it's weird when bags, when sous vide bags blow up way down line in the process. So it could be a couple of things going on. Like, one, if like, if there's bones in the thing or uncooked veg, like air could be coming out of that over time and inflating, but usually that's going to happen relatively early in the process, like a couple of hours in,
+
+[9:54] not like, you know, 20 or 30 hours in. It's also, I guess, possible that like some thermophilic thermophilic bacteria are surviving and blowing up. I don't know. I have to do more research on thermophilic bacteria. For teddy bear choya. I got an actual teddy bear sitting at a Shabbat with a hollow bread. You wrote Teddy Bearhala? You wrote Teddy Verhala. No. S-C-O-L-L-A. S- S-? I mean, sorry. C-H-O-L-A. Not, although Teddy Bear Hala is my new, imagine if you wanted a teddy bear hala and someone sent you a teddy bear choya and you opened up the package and got all those spines embedded in
+
+[10:32] your, like, face somehow, like it came off into your face, that'd be a complete nightmare. Second question I had on centrifuge is, um, via my university, I had the fortune of using a centrifuge to make some peea butter. I used fresh peas and didn't get them to blend too thoroughly. I assumed 2 hours at 16, thousand and a half Gs, should be able to puree the peas, but unfortunately it didn't change their integrity. Blending should have been done better, but is there something else I should have taken into account? The recipe calls for frozen peas, which might have destroyed the cell structure and allowed better blending, perhaps. What is worse is that one of the containers broke mid midway through centrifuging, destroying the goodwill on their side, forever using the centerfuge again. I have to look for another place. Would this be cause because I used something solid, EGPs instead of the usual liquid? Or is this just wear and tear and unfortunate to happen with me? Yeah, you just got some bad luck. The other thing that can happen is if you use the wrong bottles. If you use a flat bottomed bottle that's not meant to go into centrifuge or you use a sharp conical bottle and you put it into a round bottomed rotor, you know, anytime you have to deform the bottom of it, like you want the bottle shape to match the shape of the bottom of the
+
+[11:38] rotor. So if you don't do that, then yeah, it could be your fault for using the wrong, you know, flask or vial, but presumably, they gave it to you, right? So, or maybe you bought it. I don't know. The other thing is you could use one with the wrong composition. But again, the fact that it's a solid shouldn't matter because, you know, the bottle's supposed to get smashed against the bottom of the rotor and stay that way for the rest of the thing. But they do have wear and tear and they do eventually break. So I don't know, but, you know, that, I don't know. Regarding the other problem you had of it not working, 16,000 G's, 17,000 G's is not nearly, not nearly, not even close to being enough G's to actually rupture the cell structure of, you know, or to break apart the, you know, the plant structure of
+
+[12:23] a peas. Not enough at all. You need to blend it a lot better. I would use frozen peas, as they said, or freeze your fresh peas, which is
+
+[12:31] going to shatter some of the cell structure due to the action of the ice crystals. In fact, you know, you might, I've done even for some things, repeat freeze thaw cycles. Because each time you freeze in thought, you destroy the structure a little more. Make sure you blend the hell out. Remember, like 20,000 G's mean, well, 45,000 G's isn't even enough to pop air bubbles. You know what I mean? On the surface of some centrifuging stuff. 20,000 G's is not even enough to clarify lime juice on its own. So it's not even enough to pull cloudiness out of lime juice, right? You need like 27, man, 2027,000 Gs to do that. And that doesn't even pull everything else down. So 16,000 Gs seems like a lot, but in fact, is not enough to completely obliterate the structure. And remember, if you're actually talking about really obliterating cellular
+
+[13:20] structure. They go to many, many, many higher Gs in that. I would have guessed that like 50,000 G's would be enough to do what you want, but, you know, I don't know, because it's a guess, but again, I wouldn't say. I would just say that you know, your solution would be better blending. Alex wrote in from Toronto regarding carrots. I have Dear Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. I have a question about carrots. See, I like that. Someone says right about what it's about, carrots. In a recent Cooks Illustrated, I haven't read this one. You know, I was a subscriber for like decades. Somehow, like, it was always given to me as a gift. don't get it anymore. You ever happen? Like someone's like, I'm just not going to give this to him as a gift anymore. Does that happen to you on magazines? Do you buy it now? No, I make somebody else get it for me. Why don't you? Oh, but you could join NPR and get it. But you don't want to join NPR. You just want someone to get it for you for a gift. Well, anyone out there who likes Nastasia. Just get her a gift. My sister's already taken care of it. Oh, she did? So you're you're covered in the future. It's so weird. Like, like so many things like that other people like. you hate. How is it that you like the New Yorker? Is it because you liked it before you knew other people liked it? Maybe. Maybe. Yeah? Very unusual for you to like something that's well liked. SNL? Yeah, I guess that's true. Especially both of those things are kind of New York. Well, SNL is not New York centered. I mean, it happens to be here, but it's not like a New York thing. But you hate almost anything associated with New York that's popular. Because you have to look at the people around you every day that like it. Yeah, but I can read the New Yorker and watch SNL by myself. What happens when you're on the subway and you see someone reading the New Yorker? You're like, oh, don't ruin it for me. Is that what happened? Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Anyway. In a recent Cooks Illustrated, I think it was 3 or 4 issues ago, they published a recipe for braised carrots that involve, you like the word braising? Neutral, neutral embracing? Okay. Braves carrots that involved par cooking them at a low temperature, then finishing them in a hot pan. They say they're holding the carrots between 120, 160 will induce enzymatic activity that will firm up the structure of the carrot.
+
+[15:18] They call it persistent firmness, and they exploit it in this recipe so that even when the carrots are subsequently overcooked in the pan, they still come out with some
+
+[15:25] texture. I have tried this using my circulator, and as far as I can tell, it does make a difference. making for a more meaty texture in the final product. Is this a known thing? If so, will it work with other vegetables, presumably at other temperatures? Are you aware of any easily accessible resources that could tell me more? Yes, it does work on other things. Oh, also, I'd like to say I was able to crush the saltine challenge with 10 saltines, not six. No, this is Alex from tomorrow. I'm just being like, you know, I figured like he's got to feel pretty good about that. So I was giving him... He was able to eat 10 saltines in one minute. That's how I figured you have to use an announcer voice. Whoa, it's a callout, Alex. It's callout. Film yourself, pounding the tent. And the question is, I don't understand, like, what version of the
+
+[16:09] salting challenge gets you to 10, unless you did 22, but 52s is a lot harder
+
+[16:13] than, my guess, 4, 4, and three. I mean, 4, 4, and two, 4, 4, and two, right? Four a cracker, four, the only way to really challenge it is to do multiple crackers at once. Because Jack, have you done the Salt Team Challenge? No, but I'm going to. Of course you are. But you got to film it. I will. It's not real. I think I can crush 10. No, you can't. The most I've seen. I think the most I've seen is either 10 or 12 is the most I've seen. Well, I guess 60 seconds is a short amount of time. The guy I say, the guy, the most I've ever seen is 12 and he did 444. That sounds like what my strategy would be Jack, you must show an open mouth before the end of the... Yeah. Open mouth. Yeah. I'll have it by next week The rules are there can be like particulate matter jammed into your molars, but there can't be like a bunch of stuff rolling around on the inside of your mouth and definitely... When you shoved
+
+[17:04] up like, you know? You can't shove a whole cracker in the side of your face. No, but like if it's like Plus you're going to look like a chipmunk. see it. No chipmunking. No chipmunking. Yeah, although I enjoy that. I enjoy this like this like cheating strategy. You know, Yale had a drinking game and I used to kind of use the, I used, you can't chipmunk on that either, although people tried. Anyways. Um, I have a caller, by the way. Okay, what was it? Let me finish. Yes, yes, go it. but hold on a sec. Rather than trying to generate more saliva. I just forced down the dry crumbs. It hurt, but it worked, and I won the bet. Yours, Alex from Toronto. See, swallow through the pain is another interesting strategy. It might work well for me. All right, so I'm going to take this caller and then I get back to the end. Have you done this challenge? Yeah, can do it many times. Whoa, what did you what did you get? I got them all in, but not swallowed. How many? not going to get into that. She wasn't able to make the six. Hey, call her, you're on the air. Hey, this is Bradley from San Francisco and I wanted to call back. Uh, you'd given me some advice on um, uh, me curing chamber and uh, coffee, uh, Zapaka, uh, a couple months ago. Oh, yes, a copy, yeah. Both turned out really well and the advice was super helpful. Um, uh, the one thing that, um, so when we, when we were making the, the coffee drinks, instead of using cream, um, I had some non-dairy friends, um, and we had some almond milk
+
+[18:33] orchata, that was like Khalifa Farms, almond milk orchata, and so we substituted that, and people actually preferred the almond milk
+
+[18:40] orchata version of the Café Toba instead. But it was a huge success. I wanted to thank you. Do you think that's a, you think that's a regional thing or do you think that they, did they actually prefer the taste or do you think that's a San Francisco thing? No, no, I prefer the taste. Like, it, it, um, it added kind of like a nice, like, cinnamony note to
+
+[19:01] the, the coffee thing. Um, which was, which was really nice. Um, and, uh, it's, I don't think it was a regional thing. Um, because it was like the overwhelming choice. But what if you had added cinnamon to the cream? you think that would have changed it? that live in San Francisco that our younger people aren't actually from San Francisco? So, you know, for the... But you think it was just the spiciness of it, though? Like, do you think adding cinnamon to the recipe in general would make it better or no?
+
+[19:29] Um, maybe. I mean, because I think that, um, we didn't, I,
+
+[19:36] I, I didn't try it, but, um, you know, uh, I think if you have like a latte and you add, you know, cinema on the
+
+[19:42] top. It's like a nice flavor to it, so, um, but, But I think that that was like the, the, the kind of flavor that came through with the, the orchada
+
+[19:52] that um, really worked well. That's nice sometimes. Um, and so, um, I'm planning a, um, an all offal dinner party, and I, I had a question because in the
+
+[20:03] past, you talked about feeding clams, um, you know, to kind of change their flavor, and I, I'd read that you can feed meal worms
+
+[20:11] in all, in order to kind of like enhance their flavor before doing it.
+
+[20:16] And I wanted to do like a mealworm toffee for for dessert. I was wondering if you'd had any experience with that. Well, I've never prepared meal worms. Let me ask you. Oh, by the way, you know the old legend that mealworms can eat their way out from the insides of lizards and stuff that you feed them
+
+[20:33] to. You know that, that, you know that old legend, right? I mean, I've worked in a pet. My only, like, you know, I've worked on a pet shop and that's never happened to any of the lizards
+
+[20:44] that I've fed meal worms too. Yeah, I know, but you're familiar with the urban lead. It's been proven false, by the way. Like, uh, in the in the book uh, by Mary Roach Gulp. She like goes with some scientists, I think, and they disprove it. So it doesn't happen. Although I personally thought it happened to me when I was a kid. It's just that my lizard happened to die. I happened to be feeding a meal worms and something happened to eat its eye, but they're like, you know, not related as it happens. Right. But to go back to just straight meal worms. So in other words, no one should worry that in eating a mealworm that it's going to somehow burrow out through their body because it just it doesn't actually happen. This is not a thing that actually happens. All right. Yeah, I mean, well, the idea that I had was, I was going to cook them, add them to a toffee and then kind of break it up and then put it at the bottom of the panna cotta, so it gives
+
+[21:31] it like a little bit of crunch when it when it gets unmolded. Um, and I wanted, like, I had heard that you could do it with, like, you, like, cinnamon was, like, something that, like, you could feed
+
+[21:43] them and then, then you purge them for a couple days and then cook them. Well, see, that's the thing. purge them, if you're going to purge them, then, like, I don't know whether or not, like, they're actually going to get the... I mean, unless you're just talking, maybe they get it on the outside of them. I don't know, but are they washed? Or is the idea that you can feed them, purge them, then wash them and they still have the flavor? I mean it's possible. At that point, you fry them. I mean, in order, but they're never, they're fried basically live without going through a wrench. So the question in my mind is is, is there cinnamon on the outside of these guys or do they actually flavor themselves from the inside out? Remember, like my whole fascination with this stretches back to the Henry Winkler movie night shift, right? Where, you know, one of the characters, Well, who is in that movie? Look that up, Stas. One of the characters in that movie used to always carry a tape recorder with them and be like note to self, one of which was note to self, feed the mayonnaise to the tuna before you kill it, right? Before it so it makes itself into tuna salad. So I've had this idea in my head since I was like a little kid. Um, But with mealworms, I mean, you'd have to, like, try it because in any
+
+[22:50] event, it makes a great story, right? Uh, but, um, the other thing is, if you're feeding it only food great stuff, is there a need to purge it? Um, I mean, I don't know. Like, what I'd seen on the internet was mostly, you know, if it was like a solid thing that had, you know, that didn't have too much water, if you fed it to them for a couple of days before, it would, they would, you know, their body would taste slightly like
+
+[23:18] that, similar to your clams. Yeah, the other one, it's obviously famous is the idea of feeding
+
+[23:25] snails, uh, specifically things like rosemary for use in uh, paella. I've tried it on 3 separate occasions, all miserable failures. It left my my bathroom stinking, like dead snail and rotting rosemary. So I've never had any luck with snails. But I would give it a shot and see what happens. I would try some. I would try. I would just for your own for giggles. I would try some purged. I would try some unpurged, right? And I would also take some and rinse them off in water and pat them dry before you fry them to see whether or not it's really just cinnamon that you fed them that sticks to the outside of their bodies
+
+[24:08] that's doing it. You know what I mean? But in any event, like, if the cinnamon flavor comes through, it would be a, it's a good story. You know what I mean? Yeah for sure. I mean, hopefully meal worms in general are just like a good, like, talk about the dark kind of thing, so... Yeah, yeah. Although, you know, it's interesting. Nastasia didn't give you the scrunch up face on the meal worms, but she did give you the scrunch up face on the word offal, which isn't to say that she doesn't like the
+
+[24:37] meats. She just hates that word. Offal. Right, Stas? You know that, you know, I know Nasasha hates hipsters, but what is the group of people that hates things because other people like them?
+
+[24:48] Hipsters? Whoa. True story.
+
+[24:54] Wow. That's like, that's like, thanks so much. That's like a nuclear mic drop. drops the mic and he's gone. Yeah, boom. All right. Well, good love to let us know how it works out. Did you want to know about night shift? Yes, tell me about night shift, and then you want to take a commercial break after night shift? All right, well, we'll talk about Night Shift, and then we'll go to Horse Break. Michael Keaton. Michael Keaton. Michael Keaton. It looks like a romantic comedy, is it? don't know. I don't know. purchase it with my corporate card. All right. And we'll come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[25:27] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins, I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them, and
+
+[26:07] heritage foods is honored, to represent a network of family farmers, and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[26:15] system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[26:24] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[26:30] humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact, animals raised according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. And welcome back. Hey, you know what, Jack? The one line in that that kind of creeps us out a little bit. Stas and I were talking during the break. Sound genetics. Why? creepy. You said it sounds Nazi. Sounds eugenic like. It sounds crazy. I mean, I know in the sense of animal breeding, it doesn't play that way, but
+
+[27:02] like whenever I hear sound genetics, I'm like, you know... I think about like the genetics of sound. You know? That's a very Jackie molecule statement. The genetics of sound. By the way, speaking of Jackie molecules, I have to interject with this. So we, as a Kickstarter reward, I was tasked to make 3 ringtones that we were going to send out to the people who donated to the Kickstarter, and we got a whole bunch of people right in saying they wanted a Jackie
+
+[27:31] Molecules ringtone. So we do. Hold on. I'm gonna find it. That's not it. Let's see. I'm just going to put it up to the mic and maybe that'll work. Let's see. Actually, I can plug it right in. There we go. So here we go. Wait, wait, wait. Ringtone. Jackie molecules. Oh. Jackie molecules.
+
+[27:57] Okay. Jack molecules. It's a real thing. Wow. I'm gonna put that on I'm gonna put that on my phone. Yeah, I'll send it to you Yeah, send it to me and it's definitely... How much is it if people want to purchase it? Oh, it's free if you donate it to Hickstarter. Wait, wait, one more thing? That's you at the end. That's so good. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. All right. So for those of you that remember before the commercial break. We were talking about Alex's question on carrots and persistent firming. Yes, the answer is yes. It's a known fact, the enzyme that we're talking about is a pectin, a methyl esterase. And so the reason you have to raise the temperature is you have, and there's numerous studies on different veg, on what temperatures to use. And you got to remember, and I think it was a pectin methylesterase trick that Jeffrey Steingarten was using to do the firming of potatoes in his very famous and very, very influential article on mashed taters in his 1st book, The Man
+
+[29:04] Who Ate Everything. Um, which I encourage. If you don't own that book, like, you kind of need to go out and buy it. Like, right now, just go on Amazon and Amazon Prime that book and read it. And if you've never read it before, if it doesn't change kind of the way you look at food writing and food,
+
+[29:22] then you, I don't know. I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that I can't erase like that
+
+[29:26] whole, the whole dialogue of how he works from my head. An important book. Super important book. And I think has really changed the way like a lot of food writers have approached what they do. Anyways. Um, so yeah, so I think that the potato trick is a pectin methylestrace trick. We've tried it with other things as well. There's also other enzymes that you can activate. The trick is the reason you need the elevated temperatures. You need a temperature that's going to not denature the enzyme, but disrupt the cell structure enough that the enzyme is liberated and can do its
+
+[29:56] business. And so that's typically what's happening. And there have been studies on various different vegies, at various different temperatures to kind of figure out where to hit them and how to treat them for how long.
+
+[30:07] Also, you can enhance this effect if you dope calcium into the water. I don't know if Cook's Illustrator did that, but adding calcium to the water while you're working can also increase the amount of firming you get out of
+
+[30:20] it, but I don't know if they did that. Anyways. So there you have it, right? Seth wrote in. Good afternoon. My name is Seth Warshaw. I own a restaurant. If you want to get this caller quickly before that? Sure. Call her. You were on the air. Hey, I got a question about ice cream. I am kind of accused of being a freak about ice cream and, well, just a freak in general anyway. Um, uh, so, and I love the taste of ice cream without egg, but it's tough to get the texture right. Yep. So, the question is kind of twofold. One, is there any way to dope it up with any kind of hydrocolloid or anything crazy like
+
+[31:00] that or 2 is it, am I better off spending some money on a, you know, a liquid nitrogen doer or trying to get
+
+[31:08] a, a really nice um, ice cream machine that can get the batch times down under 10 minutes or even 15.
+
+[31:14] What's what, okay, a bunch of questions. Where did you grow up? Pardon me? What part of what part of you sound American? What part of the country did you grow up in? Oh, um, uh, bright and sunny, southern California. Okay. Because, like, Philly people and people on the East Coast, like, are very familiar with Aglis ice cream, right? The whole style of egglis ice cream in the U.S. is known as Philly style ice cream, right? So there's a long rich history. But for those who grew up around here, you know, that, um, you know, the kind of classic Philly style ice cream used to be briars, right? and that it didn't contain eggs. It also used to contain no stabilizers. And that's why also all of us know that if you get briars when it's incredibly fresh, it's, it was good, but it never as smooth and creamy as like, you know, an egg style,
+
+[32:06] uh, you know, like uh, French vanilla style, but good, but then it goes icy really quickly, right? Because it's not stabilized and it doesn't have the eggs in it. Briars has since relented and added a bunch of stabilizers to their ice cream. I guess because they realized that, you know, less than fewer and fewer people kind of, you know, were devotees of that style or kind of understood like what that style was supposed to be.
+
+[32:27] So that's it. What style of ice cream machine do you use? Well, right now I just have the cheap $100 freeze the canister and churn it. Oh, freeze the canister. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And the batch times were between 20 and 30 minutes, low 20s, and I'm looking at ice cream machines that are the self refrigerating kind. Yep. But the batch time still seem to be up near 20 minutes until you get into something that's, you know, in the 1000s of
+
+[32:57] dollars range. Right, correct. Okay, I'm going to go a little bit against the grain and I don't, how much of this stuff do you want to make? Is this like a family outing thing or do you want to do this commercial? You want to do this for family, right? Well, well, for me. Yeah. So I recommend, uh, I recommend uh, good old-fashioned salt and ice. I would buy the motorized one. You don't need to buy the expensive white mountain one. And in fact, the best ice cream that I have ever personally made outside of using liquid nitrogen or
+
+[33:25] Carpagani has been with a $2 thrift store rival
+
+[33:30] brand, ice cream, which by the way, they're owned by the same people as owned White Mountain. But rival brand ice cream maker with a motor on it that used salt and ice. And, um, I mean, I guess it depends on uh, which model you get,
+
+[33:46] like the, the trick with the, with those style of ice cream machines is uh, you can decrease the batch time uh, by just adding more uh, salt,
+
+[33:55] right? And at a certain point, the makers tell you not to do it because they worry that you're not going to be able to scrape the sides off enough. But I found that at least on my rival, I could jam it pretty hard and get like, you know, 12 minute batch times on it and get incredibly textured ice creams using just milk, cream, sugar,
+
+[34:14] vanilla, and salt without doing anything else. Now, it doesn't store as well, right? And I would also jack the cream levels to the point where it almost buttered out on me.
+
+[34:25] because that's going to also provide some textural advantages. The problem there is it's really good when it's soft, but when it hardens, it gets a little bit of a
+
+[34:32] buttery, a buttery texture, which some people find off putting in an ice cream, right? So, I mean, I like this good old-fashioned salt and ice. thing. They can make a much larger quantity than those self-freezing things can. Uh, and in general, they're uh, higher quality product. And the other good thing about it is that if you don't want to store your ice cream,
+
+[34:54] after you're done churning, you pull the motor off and you just add a boat ton of salt to the outside, drop a towel over
+
+[35:00] it, and let it cure inside of its own container. You know what I mean? Without unpacking, without agitating, without going back in your freezer. So you don't need to worry about freezer space while you're, you know, while it's curing up while you're cooking the rest of dinner. A lot of advantages. It doesn't keep so well. But there's a lot of advantages. Now, back to the other side. Let's go to the stabilization side. On the stabilization side on it, there are a boat ton of things you can
+
+[35:25] add to an ice cream like this that are not, you know, that that make it creamier. For instance, Jelan. If you were to, but it's a little bit more of a pain in the butt. You could take just the milk. I wouldn't do it to the cream. I would take just a milk and make a gelan fluid gel with it, right? Then blend it, and then add in your cream, blend it down with the vanilla. And when you freeze that sucker, it will be super duper smooth. You can go look at my stretchy, on my stretchy ice. I a stretchy ice cream post on that's also friable and you can light it on fire on the cooking issues blog that apparently you
+
+[36:06] could still search for. I would omit the guar, just use the gel in, and I would ignore my instructions to jack the, uh,
+
+[36:14] gel. I mean, you can jack the Jalan a little bit, but you don't need a jacket as much as I said at the end of the end of that article because I was just guessing, in fact, you don't need
+
+[36:22] a jacket that much, but that makes a supremely smooth ice cream with no eggs in it.
+
+[36:27] But really any sort of stabilizer is going to, is going to help you out, like LBG or something like this is going to, is going to stabilize a
+
+[36:34] carrogenen, like adding some carrogen into it will, uh, like, uh, I would probably, I think most people use iota, and small amounts for this is going to help really smooth it out for you, which is what you want.
+
+[36:45] You don't want to add so much of any of those things that it gets gummy though, right? That's the, that's the, the, the kind of the, the downside of it. One of the things, you don't want eggs because you just don't like the flavor of cooked eggs. Or you just don't want the eggs. I don't know what it is, but anytime I add any number of eggs. It just changes the flavor, and I don't know what it is. Right. Do you want a circulator? Yes. Okay. Uh, uh, here's a little trick Sam Mason. Sam Mason didn't used to like his ice creams to taste eggy, but he loved the texture that he got from eggs. And so what he would do is he would put the egg yolks in
+
+[37:23] a bag and pasteurize them at a low temperature, like you could do it at 60.
+
+[37:30] right? Celsius, 140 Fahrenheit. for just long enough to pasteurize out the egg yolks, which is not that long, really. And then, uh, and then stir those in, and then that actually, it's easy then to chill those eggs, and then you can stir those into your mix, and you're not going to get the, the, you know, blend them in, and you're not going to get
+
+[37:50] that, uh, cooked egg, that egginess that you get from the eggs. And that's what he used to do. And ain't nobody ever argued with Sam Mason's ice cream. Interesting. I will have to try that. Yeah, so there's a battery of things you can try. Let us know how works. Cool. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, now, wait, so we were talking about Seth, who owns a restaurant in
+
+[38:12] Teeneck, New Jersey? You ever been to T next house? I used to live right next to Te Neck. Yeah, T Neck. Uh, at Steakhouse. We are attempting to introduce modernist techniques into our kitchen. Some of our ideas have been successful and others not so much. Our biggest hurdle is that we are a kosher establishment, which precludes us from using many ingredients. Most recently, we purchased Activa TI, which does not have sodium casenates. Activa TI, by the way, for those of you that, you know, aren't hip to this. Activa is the brand name of transglutaminates, a.k.a. meat glue that we use to, you know, bond different
+
+[38:47] proteins that usually meets together. Now, it's an enzyme. Naturally occurring enzyme. It's not some sort of horrific monster thing, and, you know, I can get into lots of discussions about how awesome it is and how it's been maligned by specifically a couple of fake news outlets in Australia, but
+
+[39:05] I don't have time. So what's added to the enzyme is some bulking agent and also a helper protein. Now, the most commonly used helper protein is caseine. Obviously it's not kosher because it's derived from milk and you're gluing meat with milk, clearly not kosher.
+
+[39:21] So that's the problem that we're dealing with. Okay. Activa TI, which is the one that they're getting is pure, in other words, it doesn't have any helper protein in it. Okay, there we go. Recently, we purchased ActivityI, which does not have the sodium case nate component, and therefore the bindings does not have the binding strength. The body strength is much reduced. I did find a product online called Cavamex. Covamex. It sound good? Sounds like a car website or a wine website for cava. anyway. Cava Max, which they claim is a sodium case inate substitute. As I understand it, sodium casenate is emulsifier, which is what Cavamex is as well. My question is, can I use Cavamax instead of the sodium case need to add to Activa and get the desired result of being able to glue our meat together?
+
+[40:05] Additionally, how would I introduce the Cava Max into the mix? If this idea is not going to work? Is there some other idea that you could point me to? I hope this email finds you well. Thank you, Seth. Yes, it finds us well. Look, if it's meant to replace an emulsifier, then I would not use it as a replacement. What I would do is get kosher gelatin and just mix the kosher gelatin in with the Activa because it's going to provide a different kind, but a very fast bond strength. So Activa GS, which is not kosher because they don't use kosher gelatin. Activa GS is, um, is the greatest strength, or is it GB? GB, one of those two. Anyway, both of those actually have gelatin in them. One of them also has phosphates to keep it stable at temperature, but if you mix gelatin and you should be fine. So what I would do, um, I don't know if you have to pre-functionalize the gelatin into like a
+
+[40:58] slurry and then paint it and then sprinkle the meat glue on or whether it'll work just straight
+
+[41:04] sprinkled. But try it both ways, but I would do gelatin. That's what I would do. Uh, Ethan Kushner writes in about uh, reverse Agar, uh,
+
+[41:13] a reverse uh, Alginet, I guess, and uh, lentils. A big hello to the folks at cooking issues, called in late last week, but you were tasting ants at the time, so we're on old questions, huh? I'm headed into New York right now, so I thought I'd email in. Just thought you guys might want to post the questions on the heritage radio page or somewhere else very obvious. What do you think, Jack? Should we post the questions email on our page? It's there on the about us. We have a new website coming too, so... So make it prominent. My brother is planning on getting engaged in the next couple of weeks. We probably missed it. Chumps. Uh, and wants to do a sick meal for a special lady friend before popping the question.
+
+[41:49] Apparently, she loves bubble tea, which I know traditionally uses tapioca starch balls. Tapioca starch balls. What? So that said something. I must have said something that they riled her up, but I don't know what it is. That's good. But from his description, the tea she gets in New York. It sounds like they use a reverse Alginate Flavor Pearl in quotes. Apparently, it pops and Stas are going to get away. It pops and leaks peach juice. don't like the balls. But what about the what about leeks, peach juice? don't like anything about them. No. Like what about the idea of something leaking? Not good. Not good? Leaking? Okay. This sounds like a bit much out of some random eatery, but maybe they buy them pre-made. Either way, how would I make this? I've looked at chef steps and thought about using their recipe for reverse
+
+[42:37] spherification. Any tips on this? When using fruit juices? Do I have to manage the pH? What's the deal with SHMP, a.k.a. shimp? And I know this is a loaded question. Any tips on macaroons? Well, listen, uh, 0 my god, I forgot to, uh, her website just went out of my head. There's a website you need to read on macaroons. I'll try to remember, and if I can't remember, I'll get it next week. Okay, I've also been trying to make traditionally coagulated lentil tofu. I soaked the lentils for 2 days, blenderized it, boiled it for a couple minutes, strained it, heated it to 160, Fahrenheit, and added one tablespoon of Epsom salts,
+
+[43:11] far, so far, just giant pots of goo. Any thoughts? Um, And by the way, Ethan also thanks us on our
+
+[43:19] randomness and thanks, Enastasia, for your ambivalence. Adds great balance to the show, he says. All right, so let's hit these questions one by one. On the reverse verification. Sodium hexametaphosphate, a.k.a. By the way, here's how reverse verification works. Normally, when you're spherifying using algen at the spherify stuff, you put your flavor into, you add alginate, alginate, you know, sodium
+
+[43:40] algenate, which is a hydrocoloid, to your flavor, you drop that flavor into a calcium bath, calcium lactate, glucinate, it's the least flavorful, but calcium lactate is the easiest and cheapest to get, but it tastes terrible, so you have to rinse it off.
+
+[43:52] Okay, so you drop it in, and instantly, uh, the uh,
+
+[43:56] Alginet, um, uh, cross lengths, and you get this, uh, you get this firm shell around your liquid, and then you pull it out, you rinse off the calcium, and you serve these little uh, pearls.
+
+[44:06] Problem. Want several problems. One, you can't use a fluid to do this. It's very low in pH. The reason is, is that it'll pre-gel, ruin the alginate. Like acidic things ruin the algenate. That's one thing. That's why that's one of the problems you have. Another problem is that the reaction keeps happening and you keep on gelling all the way through and eventually you get solid balls and they're gross because they have no flavor and
+
+[44:30] alternate's a flavor thief and also has very bad texture. Okay. So that's 2 problems. So solution. One of the solutions, this problem, is these was called reverse verification, reverse verification, what you do, is you make a neutral, usually alginate bath. You can make an algae at bath that has flavor, but usually it's a neutral alginate
+
+[44:47] bath, and then you drop calcium laden, you know, juices into it, and you get a membrane of
+
+[44:54] algerinate around your flavorful products. Okay, here are the and the good news is, is that the product you're using can be as acidic as you want.
+
+[45:02] I've done almost straight lemon juice. It doesn't matter because, you know, the alginate doesn't, it's not going to hurt or pre-gel because the alginate's not contained in the flavorful stuff, so it doesn't matter. That's the good news. Here's what you need to keep in mind. The sodium hexametaphosphate is a, as a sequestran. It's going to get rid of excess calcium. So what you want to do is add some sodium hexametaphosphate, a.k.a. shimp, uh, to your alginate bath, to preserve it so that it doesn't go bad while you're repeatedly dropping
+
+[45:33] uh, calcium stuff. I mean, when you're dropping calcium stuff into it. And also in case there's free calcium ions in your tap water, right? So that's what the sodium had a hexametophosphate is for. You're going to want to make sure that the alginate bath that you use is as thin as you can make it and still get good, um, and still get
+
+[45:53] good, uh, film around the outside. And this is why you want to use a very strong alginate, because a strong
+
+[45:59] algen, it's going to get a greater kind of bond strength even when it's a little bit thinned out. The reason is, is that you need to drop your liquid into it and it needs to drop into it. So if you have a very thick alginate, it's just going to pancake on top and you're not going to get a decent reverse spherification. Now, you can get around that by injecting it into the thing, but it's all a pain in the butt. What you want is to be able to make a nice good drop. Unless you're doing larger spoon, in which case, another way to do it, if you're making larger pearls, like larger tapioca pearls, you can literally freeze balls of flavor with calcium, then they can be any thickness you
+
+[46:33] want, because it doesn't matter. And then you can kind of throw them into the alge in it and then pull them out and then rinse them off. Anyways. So another thing you want to make sure is that you get all the air out of the alginate bath. Otherwise, it'll be air on the top and again, you'll just get stuff pancaking when it hits the air thing and plus there'll be bubbles and it'll be a nightmare. Get rid of the air. Another thing is if you're going to drop liquid, and you're not going to pre-freeze it. You should thicken the juice. I, you know, you usually use something like something like a Xanthan or something there to keep it together and to thicken it so that it can drop in.
+
+[47:06] It helps if you densify it. If it weighs more than your alginate bath. So things like sugar can help there. So you don't want it floating on top. You want it to sink to the bottom. So it should be denser than the alginate bath and slightly thick so that it holds together when
+
+[47:20] you when you drop it and you can get nice big balls. If you're dropping liquid. Nice big balls. The other thing is you want to make sure you get all the air out of that because no matter how dense it is, if it's full of air, that'll float
+
+[47:32] it and it'll float and pancake can be a nightmare. Frozen is usually the way to go. But then the other thing is, is that you can't have them touching each other or they'll join together at the bottom. So usually what I'll do is I'll drop a bunch. They'll float to the bottom. They'll rest on the bottom, then you'll immediately dump the entire bath of
+
+[47:51] alginate into something else through a strainer and then flood it with water to separate the balls.
+
+[47:57] And then I put it on calcium to set any residual algen on the outside. That's how I do it. Yeah. On the lentil tofu. A couple things you could do. I've never made actual tofu from lentils. You can, I don't know whether you're going to be able to get a firm set. There's a couple things you can do. You can add meat glue, actually. And I wasn't able to, I didn't have time to look up on any websites, people that do this, but you can add Activa, and that will bolster any protein to protein interactions and give you a harder set, right? So that's one. Two, you could dope it with soy, so it's a soy lentil tofu situation, and that's going to help out. Or three, there are Burmese tofu, right? You can look up, isn't really tofu. It's really just kind of cooked, uh, like the people who do it, say it's closer to like a polenta. So you cook it down and then let it set, but it sets almost like a tofu, but it's more of a kind of a starch
+
+[48:48] reaction the way that like polenta is. So you could make like a Burmese style tofu. Or you could cheat by adding agar, which is what a lot of people do with their
+
+[48:56] quote unquote tofus that aren't real tofu, but I think you were trying to do traditional tofu, in which case I would either bolster it with some soy or I would hit it with some Activa and see if that helps, but check out the Burmese
+
+[49:07] tofu because people who can't have the regular soy seem to enjoy the Burmese tofu. Yeah? Okay. That's about it. What? What? Okay, tell the questions you're gonna get to next. I'll do some real quick ones. Kobe, all right. Well, Kobe wrote in about a Burns Matic Torch. So he's been listening to the show for a couple of months now, uh, and he enjoys the veggetti dialogues. He would like to order Sears all, but the propane tank does not ship to where he lives. He's not sure whether he could order a compatible Burns Matic Torch for where he lives. Can we talk about one that sources locally? I can't. Here's the problem. I can't recommend any torches that I haven't used. Uh, because, like, I can't recommend it. I don't know that they're safe. I mean, like, I would just look and see whether or not, um, I would look and see whether or not it's possible to find a torch that looks and kind of functions like
+
+[49:56] us. We're eventually going to look in. eventually we're going to look into maybe we'll look into making our own torch, right? It's going to it's going to be a while. The other question he had was on using saltpeter instead of insecure
+
+[50:06] or prague powder. I try to find a source in Israel for curing salts because I would not use saltpeter. Do not use saltpeter as a substitute. Then we are going to get next week to questions. We made it through, we're getting closer, right? We have a question about you making noodles with Agar Agar and the flavor of tequila sunrise. We have a question on making your own anti-griddle and modifying pressure cookers. We have an urgent question, which I might talk on Twitter or someone can, you know, send me a Twitter question. Chris had on Mint and Mint. He needs this now. So please, and on Turkish coffee, which we'll talk about next week. Quinine and root beer all next week on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching
+
+[50:55] Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at
+
+[51:00] Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. I'm Linda Pelagio, host of a Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network and our
+
+[0:38] Burns Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Got a huge group of people here in the studio day. Join us usual witness Dasia. the Hammer Lopez. how you doing, Stas? Good. Uh, yeah, and we got Jordananna Rothman over here, and how you doing well? So well. Yeah, Jordana and Nastasia together, actually for the 4th of July, which we get to. But also special guest today. We got Cliff, Clifford. So how do you how do you actually pronounce your last name. You go by the last name, Endo, usually, but it's actually Guli Bear. It's Guli Bear, but that name was given to our family by French missionaries. Ooh, so... So the original, like, Palau is our Japanese...
+
+[1:17] So Clifford Endo is what I usually go by. Oh, so why come how come I like your, like, when did this happen? When did you make this change in your name? 18 years old. Wow, all right. And though it is, no more gooly bear. Well, it's still there. just never say it. Alright. It exists for government documents only. Yeah, so, like, so you're interesting, actually, like, like, Japanese Palauan, that's what I like, because I like the word Palau. Palau, yeah. It's a small, tiny little island. My mom's from there. I was born there. They're half Japanese, half Palau one. Nice, yeah. You know, what I like, I would hate it, right? Tropical paradise, I would hate it. Yeah, it'd be terrible. The crystal blue waters, more fish than you could ever imagine. Oh, the fish delicious? Oh, God, yeah. I'll go. And so Jordan and Stas, you guys, by the way, calling your questions, 2718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. You know, I do have a caller on the line. We can get to him whenever. All right, okay, I'm not going to let him hang. Call her. on the air. Uh, Dave, what's up? It's Joe from Greenpoint. How you doing? How's Green point doing today? Very, very good. I love your show. So lately I've been experimenting with smoking briskets, and I wanted to try to do like a combination of sous vide or like low temperature cooking and
+
+[2:35] smoking, and I wanted to get your thoughts on how I might go about doing that. Like, should I do the smoking. I'm assuming I should do the smoke 1st and then, then the, put it, put it in, uh, in, in the water. But, uh, What temperature should I do? I was kind of thinking maybe it would be cool to do its like medium rare braise type thing, but I don't know if that's something that you would recommend for brisket. Just, yeah, what were your thoughts be? Just so you know, so the people we got here, you got your normal nastasia to tell me that I'm an idiot, but Cliff has been doing worked with me for a long time and has been doing culinary production for the past couple of years.
+
+[3:11] So I've worked a lot with these kind of techniques. And Jordana, uh, was paid, uh, is currently paid to write about eating and cooking and formerly critic of other
+
+[3:22] people's uh, uh, cooking, correct? Very critical. Very critical. Deeply critical person. Right. So, I mean, sure, you'll, like, you have probably your own views on low temperature brisket. And, you know, Cliff has his, but I'll just give you mine right away. If you're doing a low temp brisket and you're going to go medium rare. Let's divide this into 2 problems. Smoke problem, and the texture problem, the temperature you're going to do, right? So if you're going to go low temperature on it, it's not going to taste like a traditional brisket. So if you're, like, let Jordan, let's say you're going to a restaurant, someone's like, I'm going to give you a brisket. You have in your mind what a brisket is, right? Someone comes out with something, it's meat rare, even if it's tender, you're like,
+
+[4:00] ah. It's more steaky. Something hit the spot. Well, yeah, because the spot you thought you were getting hit with was the brisket spot. And medium rare brisket doesn't hit, it hits, it's delicious, but it hits a different kind of a spot. So like, and I think that's, that's the main problem with, and I did this because I've, I don't know how many 1000s of short ribs I've
+
+[4:21] cooked. you know, when I was at the French culinary as part of all the teaching stuff that we did, but, You know, the more and more I ate, I was like, this is delicious, but it's not really a short
+
+[4:29] rib. And if you want a short rib, this is not what you want. Anyone, you guys agree with me here? So, like, you can do a medium rare thing. It's not going to taste as meaty, right? And it won't have as much moisture loss, so it won't have the same texture or concentration of
+
+[4:45] flavor. So there's that, right? So you can choose. You can do like a relatively, you know, um, you know, medium, it's like when I do confit, I do high temp, honestly, I do. If you want to do the meat rare thing, do the meat rare thing, but it's not going to be the same. The other thing is, is that for smoke, for smoking for flavor, in color. Yeah, you could smoke it. You can smoke it before because that's going to prevent the drying out of it. So if you're going to do, if you're going to do a mead rare, I would smoke before, then I would do your low
+
+[5:13] temp, and then I would do a final crisp up on the outside of the skin. Yeah, that was my word was bark degradation. Oh, oh, yeah. hell yeah. You got to give a final crisp up. The answer is always a final crisp up. Unless it's going to be all, you know, El Saso, but even in a case, like if you do a, like, remember, Cliff, when we used to do for the low temp SUV classes, we would do the short ribs and they come out of the sauce and they have that disgusting, like,
+
+[5:37] green tinge. Yeah, you have to fix that. You have to fix that. right? So you just need a little bit of heat on the on the outside, even if you didn't care about the texture, even if you were going to chum it up and turn it into baby
+
+[5:48] food, just to get the color right, much less the texture on the outside. But just remember, the pleasure of a fine brisket is a little bit of drying out on the
+
+[5:56] out, in my opinion, it's a little bit of the drying out on the outside, unless you're, well, I mean, no, it is. I mean, it is. So, I mean, like a little bit of crust on the outside, even if you're going to go, uh, need rare. I, you know, one more last thing I'll give you. I don't really see any freaking point at all in going anywhere in between. Like, as soon as you hit, uh, as soon as you hit like, um, in beef, I would say like 60, 63 Celsius, anything above that, I don't see the damn point, just go, go, you know, go full temp. I don't really see much of a good range in there. Anyone agree, disagree with anyone, anyone, anyone? No? All right. Is this answering your question or not? I can't tell. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. But what temp would you, 1st of all, do you think it's worth smoking it 1st
+
+[6:42] than doing this or is it just a stupid idea? And secondly, what temp would you do it if you were to do it? What temp for the cook? I mean, I like, yeah, for the, for the, for the, uh, yeah, for the, the CV part of it,
+
+[6:56] the temp part of it. Okay, well, after, look, like when you're 1st doing a lot of low temp work, your inclination is to do the kind of virtuoso move that like Bruno
+
+[7:08] Gouseau, like, you know, the granddaddy of low temp cooking used to do, where he'd do like his, you know, long cooked meats at rare at like 54, you know, degrees,
+
+[7:19] which is like rare. You know what I mean? And he'd be like, awesome, right? And I remember this story. I haven't told a long time, so Nastasia is not going to throw up if I tell it again, but Chef Alon Sayak, who was, you know, like the dean at the French Culinary Institute, had went to a famous dinner that Jules Robuchon and Bruno
+
+[7:40] Gousseau gave, and they gave them a 72 hour, like 52 or 54 degree short
+
+[7:45] rib. And Chefalon was like, you know, this is nothing short for it. And things like, it made me sick. I was sick. I was like, it's not, it didn't make you sick, dude. It was like straight up bacteriologically safe. Sucker was the safest damn thing in the world. It can be served to people in like a nursing home. Thing was safe. But he thought it made him sick because he's like, it is disgusting. Who wants this? You know what I mean? So it's like it just wasn't anything he wanted. So for a virtuoso move with your with your food buddies who like like new stuff. Yeah, you can go all the way that low. In general, people like long cooked things higher, like 57,
+
+[8:20] uh, which is about 135 is a good meat rare, long cook, but it's not going to be as meaty. You could push it all the way up to, like I say, to, like, I mean, if you're gonna, if you're gonna go low, I would just do 50, 50, between 57 and 60, somewhere in that range. And, um, never above like 62, 63. But like, I would stay in that 57 to 60 range. It gets a, that each increment in temperature you go up, it gets a little drier, but a little more meaty flavor.
+
+[8:47] Remember, if you're going to put a sauce in the bag, reduce the hell out of it. This is the mistake people make. They don't reduce the hell out of it. You ever put like a meat in a bag and you cook it and all the juices come out and now it's like swimming in its own juices, especially at these higher temperatures. you're going to go like 60, right? So think about the fact that any like sauce that you put in, which is not going to evaporate at all, is going to get diluted by the meat zone juices, and then it's going to be like, it's going to be poached. And poaching is an entirely different technique, my friend. All right, cool. Thanks a lot, Dave. I appreciate it. All right, good luck. All right, all right. All right. So before we get into the questions that were written in. We got to talk about, you know, the, so Stas and Jordan, 4th of July. Oh, yeah. was really magical. Yeah, you were there in the Watch Hill, right? It was another time. It was like being in the 1930s and we built a fort and it was spectacular. Fort, I was told teepay, fort. It was a tea, it was a teepee. Yeah. No, it was a glowing teepee in the forest outside of our restored barn. I like that a lot. You know, I'm going to build a legit teepee, like 15 foot teepee with pull, this is the thing. I'm sure you're gonna do it better than I did it. Well, I mean, did you buy? Did you did you buy the the 2 best-known references on teepee and lodge construction? Actually, what I did was I went foraging in a shed for electrical cords, which I lashed around some trees and hung sheets over them. So if that's how you would do it. That's pretty baller. I mean, like, I like, you know this, you know what I like about Jordan Styles? She gets she gets it done. She gets it done. She gets it done. I'm resourceful check. You know, you didn't need a TV. You didn't need a TP in a week, right? What we actually did, although Anastasia disagrees with this, is that we danced, we weaved throughout the trees and I tried to pay attention to the trees to which Nastasia was particularly drawn.
+
+[10:31] She hates trees. No, she doesn't. She tells me because I like them, so she says that she hates them. She doesn't like cooked fruit, the bottom of pools. biscuits Biscuits and eagles. It's cooked fruit. The Eagles. Yeah, she hates them. Not the team. The band. But she does like trees. She does like trees. This is a witchy woman. But she always told me she hates them because I like them. Well, when we have to stop and like eat the leaves. Yeah, she doesn't like the things that you do with trees. She likes what I do with trees. It's a different thing entirely. She likes S&Ming trees. She wasn't there for the lashings. Yeah, they did that in private. I lashed alone so that I could surprise her. Nice. I heard that you guys were crushing your beer cans and throwing them into Taylor Swift's
+
+[11:15] deck. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we did. We told them with fireworks, actually. Nice. And we created projectiles and they landed and Ed Sheeran's hair caught on fire. I like that. the origin tale of his red hair. That's sweet. like that a lot. So, you know, I actually, like, you know, one of your buddies who was there was supposed to get the fireworks for your
+
+[11:33] shindig style, didn't do it. Yeah, no, but I had another buddy who showed up with Viber. Thank God for buddies. I had a huge amount of illegal fireworks at my place. And I have to say I think I talked about it on the show. If you have the opportunity. If you live near a state that like has decent laws about fireworks, go out right now because I'm sure it's
+
+[11:52] cheap and buy the 500 grams zipper cake entitled American Trucker. It is 11 seconds of awesome. Awesome. Is that the name of a firework? Oh yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And right before we played it, I cranked American woman, like Lenny Kravitz, and the American truck was like, I can hear the thing, like most times, so the 500 grams is the most amount of powder you can put into a firework and sell legally
+
+[12:14] as one block of firework. And I bought some of the giant tubes that you like singly, which are awesome because they're like, poof. You know, they go really high. But the ones that you like light one and walk away. It's awesome So most of these last like 45 seconds a minute, but American trucker does its full 500 grams in 11 seconds,
+
+[12:31] 11 and I like it. I'm that kind of guy. I hope this doesn't say, Tiffany. I'm the guy that I crunched my candy. You know what I'm saying? I put the hard candy in my mouth. I try to suck on it for a minute. I'm like, F this, and I crunch it, and that's it, because I want that burst. were different in that way. You're the long suck? I'm a slow burned gal. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, but so maybe you would prefer the big and bold, which is another one of the 500 grand cakes that I got, but I'm
+
+[12:53] saying American trucker for my money, especially if you back it up with a bunch of like Excalibur and El Diablo
+
+[12:58] shells right afterwards. Awesome. Anyway, also... I got another caller, by the way. Also, I hooked up my deep fryer to go LP. So I took my natural gas deep fryer out of the city. I'm no longer a deep fryer in the city, brought it to Connecticut, fired it up on propane, have it outside. So for years, been telling people to put their deep fryer outside. And so I can report on how it's going to work with weather and propane usage and all that. I'll be testing it the whole freaking summer, but I was busting out fries and chicken and shrimp like the end of the freaking world was coming. Anyway, color, you're on the air. It's Colin. Down in DC, calling in? And I had a question, uh, sort of set of questions about ice for you. I got a friend who is opening and I got a friend who's opening up a bar in, you know,
+
+[13:49] a former restaurant space. And they've got some equipment still there. We're trying to see if it makes any sense to hold on to that for their ice program. So you mean like an ice machine? They have, okay, they have some ice machines you want to hold on to. Yeah, they got an ice machine and they got like a victory 2 door reach in freezer. We were hoping to try to use to do some like bigger, clear presentation kind of cubes and stuff. Okay. Um, on, on the, with the small, with the small stuff. Uh, they've got an isomatic little thing that like pushes out the little waffle shaped cube things. Uh, is that, it's like smaller than you suggest in your book for shaking stuff or stirred stuff because it's just too much surface and they
+
+[14:42] don't click. Yeah, they're kind of execrable little things. I mean, like, do you have a use? do you have a non-cocktail use for them? Um, I think they might. I mean, I think he's shipped in this place to mainly, mainly cocktail bar with like a small, small food program. I mean, I don't know how much it, I don't know what the cost of ownership on that sucker is, but I mean, like, if I could, if I could, like,
+
+[15:08] do whatever I wanted, I would get, like, a medium decent ice machine,
+
+[15:12] right? with decent size, uh, you know, not like huge cues, but decent size cues when it's easy to kind of, uh, work with. I would do my own ice program by freezing down cubes, probably in a chest freezer. You could do reach in, but chest, in igloos. And then if I had like super money, I would go get a nugget machine because I've always wanted a nugget machine. And then that's what I would do. And then if you wanted like a serious, like, if you wanted a serious, what's it called? Like raw bar, you could get a flake, but, or you could just, uh, or you could just get a, like a machine to flake out the cubes that you got. But that's, I mean, that's what I would do. Here's the thing, like, if you're strapped for cash, yeah, make it work with the crap ice that, you know, comes out of that machine,
+
+[15:52] but, uh, you know, make sure you make sure that you change the filters and make sure everything, like, you know, if it's coming out clear,
+
+[15:59] your filters are partly good. Like the water's like the water off that ice is quite nice. It's good, but it's just, you know, it's kind of small. We sort of see that it's got limitations and, you know, we could calibrate around that and just try to work with it, but you could. You could,
+
+[16:15] but you know, with the idea of like, try for something like, it's like a cold draft machine, sort of sounds like what has the, has the buzz or something. Yeah, I mean, cold
+
+[16:25] draft. People use a lot around here. I like cold draft for, like, cocktail stuff, but, you know, if you're going to do any culinary with it, it's kind of a crappy culinary ice because it doesn't stack very well into, like if you actually need to ice a bunch of stuff
+
+[16:37] down. It's a little bit of a pain in the butt. Here's another thing I want to say. Uh, if you, look, if you, in New York, a lot of the times what you do is you hire, like, the bartender comes in and they're working a couple shifts here, a couple shifts there,
+
+[16:49] right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it's going to be hard to have everyone bend their head around the fact that you're using shell ice and everyone
+
+[16:56] else is not. And so you're probably gonna have some issues with it. If your bar team is only your bar team and they're only working with you. Yeah, then you can crank, you know, like as long as you know what your tools are, you can crank delicious stuff out no matter what ice you have. It doesn't matter. You just have to like alter your alter your techniques a little bit, but then it requires you to make sure that everyone does alter their
+
+[17:15] techniques. And if someone comes in, you have to beat them around the head and tell them that, you know,
+
+[17:19] that it's a little different from where they were before, et cetera, et cetera, to make sure that everything's right. You're going to have to keep a really eagle eye on your wash lines when the drinks come out and stuff like that.
+
+[17:28] But, you know, it can be done. I mean, ice, ice is, ice. just the rate at which it dilutes. That's all that's all you're messing with, right? And then how much surface water's on it. Yeah. Well, one thing we had heard in talking to some of our friends down here that had places is that, you know, a couple of them
+
+[17:44] had had some kind of recurring maintenance issues with their cold draft
+
+[17:48] machine. Is there stuff to really pay attention to with those or is there like, I don't know, what makes, is there something that makes them a little bit higher maintenance than just the shell ice machines?
+
+[17:58] They claim that they fix those maintenance problems, but I don't know whether that's true. It also used to be that there weren't as many people around servicing cold drafts. So when they went down, there was like problems. I mean, a lot of times in the summer, especially as your machine ages, you're going to get problems with your ice machine because they're running all the time. But, you know, I had heard that I thought that they fixed that problem. I'd heard that that was a problem. I haven't I haven't owned one or, you know, had to use one on a daily basis in years, so I don't currently
+
+[18:26] know like, but someone will probably tweet in and be like, nah, they fixed that. They work fine. they'll tweet and be like, no, it's still a problem. You know what I mean? I mean, are there are there other sort of brands in that ballpark that are recommended by people?
+
+[18:39] Almost everyone now makes a, uh, almost everyone now makes a larger size cube that you can use in a
+
+[18:48] nicer, nicer cube. I would look, look, you know, you're going to have a service contract at the at the bar restaurant. So I would, I mean, honestly, whoever services this stuff Well, I haven't done, it used to be that every year or so I would have to read all of the company's specs on their ice machines and freezers and fridges and see who
+
+[19:05] was coming out with like the new stuff because I used to write about it for food arts, but I haven't specked one in a long time. So, you know, I don't know, you know, things things to look for are, you know, is the filtration good? Does it have a problem with, you know, mold and slime growing on the inside of the unit because that's, you know, an issue. Who's that guy? Some guy told me about the guy in Texas who used to like go into every restaurant, bust into the kitchen with the camera crew, go to the ice machine and be like, green's rhyme. And was like all he ever did. That was his only restaurant steak. You heard of this guy? Definitely. I think he's dead now. But anyway, it's a kind of a good shtick. right? Queen slime. So you want to make sure that, you know, that that's the thing. It's easy to clean and it's not going to harbor nasty bacteria. That's it. You don't want to harbor nasty bacteria. You want a good filter. You want to make nice clear ice. It doesn't taste like crap. Don't you hate when you go to a place and the ice machine has some sort of like crazy ass infection and the ice tastes wrong? Did you hate that? I hate it. It never gets dry. Just stays wet. Yeah, you know what else? Yeah, I hate that. You know what else I hate when they don't fix the filters on their ice machines and the ice machine gets that crumply look on the outside of the ice, that like raggedy look on the outside of the ice because it wasn't like
+
+[20:11] filtered right. I hate that. Or when you start getting the cloudy sprays through the ice because it's... I hate that. Hate, hate. Yeah. Anyways, I hope that helps. on the, on the, like, big clear box side. We tried, we did a run, try and just, like, uh, double stacking, like, uh, like, shorty in the regular depth hotel
+
+[20:30] fans, to kind of create, uh, you know, an empty space beneath, and, uh,
+
+[20:35] Do you see something like that working? I mean, do you see like an inherent problem with that? Other than that, like, the bottom chunk's gonna not be beautiful as long as we, like, kind
+
+[20:46] of... did it work? Yeah, it seemed to. It's just the way, the way it's, the way it is right now is kind of slow because it's a little hot in that room, so we're working on the ventilation to make the
+
+[20:57] uh, refrigeration work a little more efficiently. I mean, it's supposed to be slow. like you should only be freezing. Look, to get a really nice clear cube, you should probably only be freezing, like, you know, in that kind of a freezer without movement, because remember, you're not moving in like a climb belt. Climbel can freeze faster because the water's moving. In a fridge, it probably shouldn't be free a freezer out it. You probably shouldn't be freezing more than like two, 2.5 inches a day. Yeah, okay. That was another thing I was curious about. And, you know, look, if the double pans works for you, if it insulates it enough such that you're not trapping stuff in the underside of it and you're still getting clear cubes that you can, like, you know, chip off the stuff,
+
+[21:37] then yeah, I mean, that's easier to deal with than igloos. I've always just done it in igloo because, I don't know, I just have. I've never tried a double hotel pick. Yeah, I mean, that's what I've done at home. It works. Well, the last, okay, last thing is in, in, in, in the freezer, right? It's got a defrost cycle and individual timer to run that. Is there, you would, if we're using this primarily just for freezing blocks of ice? Is there a best way to kind of game that defrost cycles? I would just, look, not. Yeah, no, I don't think the defrost is going to, defrost is not going to hurt your, your, as far as I can tell, the defrost is not going to hurt your ice making, and it will, it will shaft your coils if you don't defrost it. Defrost. Obviously, don't ever put freaking ice cream in a freezer that has a defrost
+
+[22:27] cycle because you're just asking for pain. Obviously, ruining everything. But like, but remember, the whole goal of a big ice cube is giant freaking ice crystals. So the enemy, the enemy of your ice, which is like melting the small crystals and melting and like free freezing the back of your ice
+
+[22:43] cream, rather, melting them back into larger ice crystals is in fact your friend when it comes to Big Eyes, your friend. Draft coils. Don't shaft those coils. mom always told me. Yeah. All right. Uh, we're not gonna, we're gonna go through a whole nother episode without getting to any of the written questions, aren't we? Is that going to happen to us? Well people should only ask one question per call. I know, but that's not been our rule. if you want to establish a rule. If you want to establish a rule, you can establish a rule, but that's not been all right. So should we do some questions before we go to break? Jack. Yes. Yes? Yes. Oh, by the way, I'll just put this in. I shouldn't do this. But John Rivett wrote in. And so Dave carried a weigh in on the latest peas and guacamole debate. I didn't even hear about this till it was too late. Apparently, the president, like our president of our United States cares about whether there's peas in the guacamole.
+
+[23:34] Guacamole. And people put peas in water. Melissa Clark does, apparently. I don't know. Jordan hook me up with this. I know you know, but Stas doesn't care because she hates to talk about food when she's not at work and we don't do that for work. So, you know. Well, the peas and glass. Well, I actually, I miss the hullabaloo myself, but I'm aware of it because, you know,
+
+[23:50] I'm aware of it. But, um, there was actually, there was a pea guacamole, ABC Cosina, like a year and a half ago. I mean, like, this is not like a new debate, and it sort of sparked up then. And then Melissa Clark published, I think, a recipe in the New York Times, and it was like this whole Twitter
+
+[24:06] hullablue, and people were debating, whether they were Team P or Team, no P. Well, I understand. It's variant, right? If you like to taste do it, yeah? Yeah, like, is it good? is kind of like the baseline for everything. Yeah, did it taste good or not? Well, like, I like I like Alex Dupax like pistachio guacamole. I think delicious. And he actually makes a great one with Uni as well, which is quite good. It's quite good. . Yeah. Yeah, that wouldn't be my first, that wouldn't be my 1st way to describe it, but I like where you went with it. But, you know, whatever, right, exactly. But, like, we need things to debate because, like, we're, you know, What's the debate? like hungry for, you know, arguments that, you know, there's everyone wins. It's an approach, it's an approach, approach, debate, and we can all feel good at the end of the day. I like these. I don't. Okay then. I mean, how's that an argument? Well, because it's like, it's a, it's a light way to have a debate and sort of like exorcise some of our demons without, you know,
+
+[25:05] offending anyone. Well, I'll tell you what, you know, mine. I'm talking about human nature. My welcome only thing. cumin in mind all the time. Well, I mean, you bring shame upon this family. Yeah, well, you know what? I paid for the avocados. I do what I want. And the debate there ends. If you don't want to eat my guac, I put I really want to eat your guac, actually. You know, that's what I'm saying. I put, you know what? Nastasia doesn't like human. And so she doesn't put it. We've had this discussion on the air before. So listen to this. You ready for this? Nastasia does not put cumin in her chili. Wow. Well, too much cumin goes BO. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. but too little cumin and you got tomato stew. You know what I'm saying? Like beef tomato stew. For me, a guacamole is measured. I mean, you can put whatever you want in it, frankly, like I wouldn't put cumin, but it's a tasty flavor. I can understand why you would. It's about the gradient of color. If you overmash your guacamole and it's like all like the same color green, then you and I have some words. Here's here's the issue. Like, I like a chunky, like, old style. I also like hyper pureed both. Yeah, I'm on the chunky style. I can't do the pure. Okay, I also like both kinds of peanut butter. I'm just gonna go there. Yeah, that's a totally different thing. Guacamolos. You want to see the grain, you want to see the dark green and the light green and the sort of yellowy, and it reminds you what you're eating and it connects you to the earth and it's like a whole thing. You don't watch it. They grow in trees. The puree. Yeah. What does a tree grow out of? Arnold? Well, so do I grow out of the earth? You look at me, it don't remind you of the earth. Well, when I mash you into a guacamole. The great hand of color. Strong. Hey, speaking of mashed and peas, though. I was just in London, and those guys make the mashed minted peas, which I didn't know I liked. I didn't know I liked mashed minted peas. Super tasty. They're delicious. I had one excellent version of it that spoiled me forever and one like,
+
+[26:53] oh my god, why didn't I have the excellent one all the time because the 2nd one I had, I was like, oh, mashed minted peas, mashed minted
+
+[26:59] peas, and they were like, you know, like all kind of like, you know what I mean? like, give them the bad stuff. He too excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ruined forever. Oh, man, doesn't it suck to like just get turned on to something and have gotten a really good one? And then someone gives you the crap the next day. The worst. All right. And one more thing, uh, EW Nasser wrote in, uh, friend of the show. Regarding the caller about eggless ice cream a while ago, he's been using Jenny's ice cream recipes for a while. J-E-N-I, look it up on the internet with great results. Should we do a question, Jack? Do we have time? I have one more caller, if we want to squeeze that in. Let's do it. You're on the air. You have one question caller. Oh, Jack is the hammer today. Hi, I wanted to ask you, I had a great time at Booker and Dak last weekend, by the way. Oh, thanks. I wanted to ask you about the, um, how to recreate the
+
+[27:48] Razumatazarak and also just kind of like your general formula for rattlers or like any kind of information, uh, interesting
+
+[27:57] ideas, ideas you would try with them. The Rasmatazerac is they were doing, they were getting dried, freeze dried raspberries, and then blending them
+
+[28:07] custinoed into the liquor and spinning them out. So any sort of like freeze dried raspberry. And I think they're still using freeze dried raspberries. So that's what they use for their base. And then otherwise, it's a straight Sazerac. It's the only use of pay shows I allow in the bar because I do test pay shows, bidders. Tastes like cough syrup. Jordana, you love cough syrup. why. what they're looking for. Scissor. Scissor. Scissor. Oh, some scissor. I know what? We actually used to have Robotussin on the back bar. Remember that? If it's not a controlled substance. No interest. Whoa. Whoa. You're getting the real, you getting the real, what's it? That's what scissor is. It not just like rotus. But we were doing it for flavor, Jordana, just for flavor, and it tastes remarkably
+
+[28:48] like paste shots. Because pastries taste. I know where I see that. I can see that. And then we flamed it with the red hot pot. Anyway, back to the question. So, like, that's how they do that. And other than that, I think it's fairly straight up, like, you know, Sazerac, I think they do the absent
+
+[29:03] for it. They might rinse with something else. I got to get the spec. It's not actually my spec. I didn't write the spec, so I got to get it. But the Rattler, honestly, it's the only recipe that I that I've written that's written in cans. So like you do it just like you do the old school orange juice. We take a can of clarified of the beer, and then we take, and you want like a relatively non-hoppy, relatively light
+
+[29:25] beer, and then we pour a can of clarified grapefruit juice into it and carbonate it. That's it. It's like super simple, a couple drops of salt. Super simple, super refreshing, very light alcohol, but I like
+
+[29:38] rattlers a lot. Even Styles likes them. She's not a beery person. You had the rattler at BDX, any of you guys? So, like, obviously, like a lot of people, they do like the lemon and the beer, but I like grapefruit. I like grapefruit and beer. I think it's delicious, but you can't go to to Hoppy. You know what I mean? And also, I don't think the one we use is not cascade, even though that would be a more grapefruity fruity thing, but anyway, we don't. But anyway, so like, I would think, like, anything like that, I think in the summer, people like the low alcohol stuff. People like to, people like a pounder. And the juice itself is too damn sweet, but when you cut it with the beer, then
+
+[30:10] like the sweetness is right on the thing and like the beeriness is right. So it's like right in between. It's like the Arnold Palmer of beers. Candy. Candy. Yeah. But like the grapefruit in particular, I find refreshing. Mika with some mushy peas. Some mushy minted peas, but a bright green, mushy minted peas. Anyway, don't that helps go into commercial break coming right back with cooking issues?
+
+[30:48] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red. Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[31:07] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods, USA, exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them, and
+
+[31:25] heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[31:33] system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[31:43] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information.
+
+[32:16] the white the city Oh, you're coming to play once, I'm coming up again. You just Right in the nighttime Yeah, I wanna see you Down the moonlight, baby nothing on the thrills When the You
+
+[32:58] antic When you living in the city the radio sh up again If you want to get away the nime Yeah, I wanna see you I down the moonlight baby But when the ground starts stopping now. And a longer than normal break, back with cooking issues. Jack, did you play any Jackie molecules while we were on break? No, you did. I did not play Jackie Mollock. Can you play the Jackie molecules ringtone, please? Oh, man, I absolutely will. Here, hold on. Let me pull it up. Did you did you download it yet? don't know how to. You don't know how to. No, I made a ringtone for our friend Peter Peter Kim. Who is the... Yeah, Peter Kim is, by the way, the director of the August museum of food and drink, and we actually have an exhibit that's going to open in October. We can't say he's paying for it yet, but we got a chunk of change to do it. And so, but I made him a ringtone that Nastasi and I enjoy. And I'll play it for you now while Jack is getting up his jacket. I actually have mine. Here we go. I mean, I got my... Oh, you have yours ready? Can you hear that? Yeah, he was doing that. I love to play with a theater. In the box?
+
+[34:15] Yeah, yeah. Because Nastasi and I are obsessed with Rudolph the Rudolph. Oh, wow. My name's all wrong. No child wants to play with a Peter. I'm the boss, so I had to come here. I love that show. King Moon racer. That show makes less and less sense every time I watch it. Stasi, you've seen it, what, 857 times? You've probably seen it more because you have kids. Yeah, but I think it freaks Booker out. You know what he doesn't like to watch? He doesn't like to watch the other one, the one with Heat Miser, and Snow Miser. Even though Thomas Waugh, the bartender, is an exact mix of Heat Miser and Snow Miser. Oh my god. He totally is. Yeah. Yep. All right. Okay, so, uh, Jackie Molecules, where are my Jackie Molecules at?
+
+[35:04] Oh, that was the one without you. Not even better. Jackie Molecule. Oh man. Can any cooking issues, listener, download that? You had to donate to the Kickstarter campaign, but I'll tell you this, if you email Heritage Radio and ask specifically and ask nicely, I'll send it over.
+
+[35:25] I'm going to put that on. You never call me, Jack. never call me anymore. I'm going to have that be your ringtone when you... Oh, perfect. I want like all my buddies to have custom ringtones. Why not? live in a world where that's possible. You know Nastasias, right? No. I shouldn't do this. This is not about cooking. And really, like, I have so many questions to get to, but you know, I can't help it. Those of you that have met Nastasia in the real life will appreciate this.
+
+[35:54] You are mean to me. You are mean to me. Yeah. Okay, we got a question in Matt from Aquan. I have to do this. who's been waiting the whole time. All right, call her, you were on the air. Hi Dave. How you doing? Hey, this is Chris from the Green Zone with the mint question. Oh, what happened? You already had your event, yeah? Well, it's ongoing series of events, so it's never too late. All right. All right, all right. So what happened with the one that you did? So the question, by the way, you're trying to do mint, trying to do mint, right? I tried to batch it several times in advance. I blend it in my, uh, Len tech, uh, I have a blend check, not a Vita prep, but, um, and I tried adding
+
+[36:40] a scorbic acid as an antioxidant. That didn't help. I'm basically using your blender muddling technique from liquid intelligence. And escorbic acid didn't work. I thought it might keep it from browning, but then I remembered all your talks about acids turning angles chlorophyll brown. Well, yeah, except... Yeah, modern amounts of ascorbic acid didn't help. Because I know that alkaline things will keep things green, but then it stayed
+
+[37:07] green, but it tasted funny. And so for my events so far, I've just been blending it on the spot and serving
+
+[37:12] the drink on the spot at the bar. But I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to keep that green color for more than like half an hour. Now, mint is much harder than the rest of the herbs. Escorbic acid didn't help at all? No, I mean, in fact, if anything that made it worse. Well, if you add small amounts. So too much acidity can go the other way, but like, like it should, it should, the baking soda did work, though, and you tried even like toning it down to, to, it's hard. Mint is really hard. Mint wants to go brown really badly. Have you tried using, like, semi-dried? Well, I haven't, but so the whole point is that in, in, you know, my bar is a Middle Eastern
+
+[37:54] game called Tobar, in the Middle East, lends it mint lemonade is super popular, and it always has this vivid green color and really fresh taste.
+
+[38:01] That's what I'm going for. But they're using dried, right? No, no, they're using fresh, but they blend its order on the spot. Yeah, I mean, I look, I've never had luck keeping fresh mint. First of all, you can't blanch it. It's destroyed. You can't blanch it. You can't hear. No, a bunch didn't work. I tried that too. No, as soon as you heat the mint trimming. rent. Yeah. Uh, but then, uh, yeah, I think the baking soda is
+
+[38:29] going to make it taste soapy. It didn't taste soapy. tasted almost like creamy, if that makes sense. Creamy. That sounds like that could be good. Yeah, it doesn't have like a creamy texture or anything, but like it has this sweet, almost vaguely
+
+[38:44] fatty dairy taste. Cliff says plan peas into it, but he's just joking. That goes back to the guacamole debate we were having earlier. Although, you know what? fake green, not fake, but like chlorophyll extracts, one thing you could do.
+
+[38:57] Uh, well, you know, could do that. You could do chlorophyll extracts in it. That's cheating. It's cheating like a mofo. What the extracts about turn brown over time? No, I think like you make like a good spinach extract. Uh, that'll stay green. Keeps for a while. Green. Yeah. Green. I heard that's actually the source of the color in Chartres, but... You heard right. Yeah. Spinach. Spinach. Interesting. Yeah, see as soon as that works. pension reduce it down or what? Uh, I mean, you don't need that much. I don't think. Like if you make a good extra. Do you have a good recipe off top of your head, Cliff, for that? Do you make that for the TV shows ever for the green? Oh, it's, we just, we said a blanch blend strange. But you squeeze the hell out of it before you blend it, right? Blanche, squeeze the hell, get that black, dark stuff out, then blend strain, right? Yeah. For the spinach. Yeah. The, you know, the other problem, though, is when mint turns brown, it also the flavor changes. So if it's mainly the color, but you're not getting oxidative flavor changes in it, then you're going to be okay, but if it starts tasting swamping. That's when you know you're going to. Yeah, it doesn't actually taste so bad. It's definitely, I know what you mean. Like, you know, if I muddle a mojito and I let it sit out for a while. smell and taste awful. Did you know that you're not allowed to yell at customers for not drinking their stuff fast
+
+[40:21] enough? to know that? Well, I mean, you know, when I let the order, the customers are definitely drinking it fast enough. Good. Good for them. Anyway, look, just keep calling and tweeting back and let me know whether you come up with something that works because it's a problem that everyone has had. We do all of our stuff on mint to order just because I've never been able to get it to
+
+[40:42] keep. And I never do mint for outside events when we're going to do bottle batching because I can't get it to work.
+
+[40:47] So if you come up with something that you like, just let us know, all right? Okay, so good. All right. Matt wrote in for. Oh, wait, Jordan is on the air for a reason. We only have 5 minutes up. She had a big question. Let me just finish Matt because I started it and then we'll do it. Matt from Aquron wrote in on quinine. I haven't been able to get quinine, sulfate USP from Spectrum Chemical. Tips on that would be appreciated. They rejected my LLC's attempt. Tell them you're a school, right? Tell them your school. Wait, I didn't tell you to just falsely represented your school. I take that back. I don't know. figure something out. to make tonic, but I have been able to get Kinchona bark. The tonic I've made from the Kinchona bark is, is it Chinchon or Kinchon? I've always said kin. I think it's chinchono. Well, it's chin, like chin, chin, chin. Okay. Chinchona is great tasting, but it's brownish color that many find unappealing. Can you think of any way to clarify it? Well, remember, clarity and color are 2 different things. I can have something that's totally clear, it's still going to be brown, right? So you want colorless and clear. When I do it, I can make it totally clear. I mean, yeah, clear in a centrifuge or with good filtration. And that's going to be good for good enough for carbonation. Anyway, here's a link to Jeffrey Morgenthaler's page if you need the recipe. I have the recipe. He also adds other spices to it. I've done a decent. I've done a decent quinine. In fact, I have a recipe for it in liquid intelligence, how to use the bark. The problem is that even when it's fully clear, There are foaming agents in the Conchona bark that aren't the
+
+[42:13] quinine and it's going to, you're going to get more foam out. So you just need to be careful. If you do a good job clarifying and you could put it through a filter to try and do that, like you could put it through some sort of
+
+[42:24] like some sort of, you know, filter that gets all the particles out, but I hate doing that. You could spin it in a low grade centrifuge, that would also work so you don't need to do that much. But you need to get it crystal clear. Once it's crystal clear, I mean, the color's not that unappealing, once it's really watered down to the point where you're
+
+[42:38] going to use it, then it looks almost like a ginger ale and people will find that it's pleasant. And if you do get it clear, you will get foaming when you open the bottle, but you won't continuously lose
+
+[42:47] carbonation because of constant nucleation of bubbles. So hope that helps. Now, Jordan, we're going to have to do another freaking ketchup. I'm ready when you are I got I got 2 whole weeks. Well, of course, the questions here. I'm not going to get to answer. Jordana, what do we got going? Okay, so here's my situation. I'm going to Burning Man again this summer. Wait, you went once and you're going to go again? Yeah, I'm going to go for like as long as they'll have me, basically. I thought the whole thing was if they have anyone that shows up. Definitely not the whole thing. It's like a very regimented thing with like tickets and a hole. Really? Oh, yeah. Didn't it just like a bunch of people like lighting gas fires and it didn't start as a bunch of
+
+[43:26] people like bringing a bunch of crazy stuff and lighting big gas fires in the desert? Um, it actually started on a beach in San Francisco, um, and it's grown to, I mean, it's the 2nd largest city in Nevada outside of Las Vegas for one week out of the year.
+
+[43:39] It's 70,000 people. And it's like an entire infrastructure. It's a city. I mean it's. Are there gas fires? Because, like, there's no gas fires. There are definitely fires. You burn the effigy, don't worry. And a lot of the art burns as well. Um, and it's really amazing community. I mean, it's like a staggering infrastructure actually. It's really, it's really stunning what how well it actually works, considering its reputation. Where do you live in this situation? Do you have like some sort of like... I live in a camp. Yeah. Like a Bedouin tent? pretty awesome. I actually, I live in like a trailer. Double wide. Really classy. Oh, wait, double wide. They bring double wides into this? Well, I bring we bring it. Yeah, we bring it from Reno, drive it in. Damn. Yeah. upping the game. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people live in tents, and that's still the majority, for sure. I don't have to do the trailer. Yeah, to, I mean, listen, like, basically what it's to buy. It provides, I mean, it's not a whole, I mean, it's not like luxurious by any means, and I share it with 6 people, so it's not, it's Crampton. When you say double wide, like, you're talking about the ones that my grandma used to live in in Wappers. And you drive it in. So you hitch it to a truck and you drive it in and then you park it and then you press a button and it expands.
+
+[44:48] Oh, it's a movie trailer. It's like Hadads. I don't know what Hadad's is, but... No, no, no. Oh, right, right, right. Actually, I do know what Hadads is. Amazing. No. It's snow. I mean, it looks it looks like an RV. just doesn't have the driving mechanism inside of it. It's hitched to a truck. Um, basically what it provides is like a little bit more protection from the elements and it
+
+[45:10] provides, actually it has a, you know, has a, has a bathroom for, you know, but
+
+[45:15] it, and then it has a, um, a refrigerator. So that actually helps with some storage issues, but not to the extent that I'm going to need them this summer
+
+[45:24] because so part of the whole experience there is that you go and you want to contribute to the community last year, I really kind of let it all wash over
+
+[45:31] me and it was really amazing and I took so much from the experience, but I felt like I didn't contribute that
+
+[45:36] much. So this year, my group and I decided that we want to build a bar, um, at Bernie Man, to give back to the community. You mean you're not going to sell liquor, you're going to give it away? There's no selling. There's no selling. It's a gift. It's gift. And so actually last year, it sort of happened organically. We start to, we were making Palomas for everyone, which was really nice. But, um, this year we wanna, we wanna, you know, make it a little bit more formal. We actually want to build a structure and we have this idea for like a rope installation art piece. And I want to do, and our camp is day of the dead themed, um, shout out La Kalaka. So we want to do, you know, Mexican cocktails, but part of that is
+
+[46:12] citrus and the environment, the climate of Bernie Man, the citrus will go immediately. So you can't actually bring citrus. So I started to think about what are some alternatives
+
+[46:22] to how can I fake citrus, basically, in the desert. So my 1st thought was that I would do minding that there are sort of packing issues as well, you know, like I'm bringing 2 duffels. We don't have a tremendous amount of room. There's not, you know, you got to be a little bit scrappy. So my 1st thought was maybe inspired by the acid tasting that you did at the
+
+[46:41] Fantastic MoFAD benefit at Carnegie Hall. I thought maybe I would do like, I would fake lime juice with some of the powdered acids. And so I want more information upon that. But then I was told by my friend Anastasia that you actually had another idea. Yes, many, many. So let's talk about it. Whenever you have a problem, clear parameters. How many drinks we talk about? How many drinks? Well, yeah, well, that's a, give me a, I'm going to say... I'm going to say 400. 400 to 500, let's say. So let's say you were going to just bring straight up lime juice. Let's say I can make a keep for you, right? Okay. You're going to be talking about in the levels that I'm doing this, you have about an ounce per
+
+[47:21] drink. How many? How many drinks? I would say, let's say five, four, 500. So like 500 ounces. We'll call that like, uh, 82 liter bottles. Can you do it? Could I bring 82 liter bottles? No, it's too heavy. I can't travel with that Now you're getting tough. Here's the problem with acids. Yeah, talk to me. Acids don't have, 1st of all, they don't have the richness of flavor that are real, you know, citrus is
+
+[47:51] going to have. They're good for making sodas and things that are going to keep infinitely, and the good news is the amount of acid that's contained in a liter, right?
+
+[48:02] So a kilogram of lime juice only weighs 60 grams. Right? But, uh, things that are shaken, they have acids in them, have no texture, because they don't have any of the proteins that you get out of the out of the citrus. Um, and it's never going to have that kind of fresh kind of fruit kind of a thing going on. Um, you know, if you could have someone deliver the citrus
+
+[48:27] to the trailer, then you could juice it and cook it. The answer to keeping it is doing cordial, right? So like, you know, if you wanted to use real citrus. The answer is, is like, you don't want to be juicing every day and the juice is going to go bad. It's not even though we do have refrigeration in the trailer and there's actually a little bit of added refrigeration in this sort of like desert kitchen thing. It's not, it's, it's not something I can count on. It's not. equal quantities of sugar and lime juice. Because you're gonna remember, you're gonna need sugar out there too. Equal quantities of sugar and lime juice. If you just bring it up to a boil with some peel in it and let it settle out, that can stay out in the
+
+[49:06] desert covered not in a fridge forever. We're talking about, by the way, like temperatures can rise during the day to over 100 degrees and higher, and at night they can drop to freezing. very, very challenging environment. Yeah, but it's all good. You'll be good for how long is it? listen a week. Yeah. So you'll be good because the combination of the acidity and the sugar ain't nothing growing in
+
+[49:27] that cordial, right? So it's totally preserved. Now, if you can't fly it out there, but, you know, you could, like, like, when you pick up the thing, like, quickly juice, like, the limes or have someone buy the, hey, actually, don't buy the really bad stuff, but once you're
+
+[49:43] going to cook it, the lime juice doesn't have to be super fresh anyway, because you're going to make a cordial with it, right? Test it here 1st so you get the recipe right. But you could literally just buy the, I'm making air quotes like fresh lime juice that's been juiced a couple of days ago. You could buy it by the court out there in Reno. You know, my Crazy Uncle Ralph Vigorito was a pit boss in Reno back in the day. Did not know that. Glad to pay me a visit if you'd like. Oh, no, he's in Jersey now. I haven't seen him in a while. Anyway, oh my god, he's an awesome character. Anyways, so, uh, yeah, like equal quantities of that lime juice, not the real, not the
+
+[50:18] real, real BS, you know, but like semi-fresh. Oh, here's another good one. Ah, even easier. Even easier. Take the malac acid and the citric acid that I'm talking about. The powders. Yeah. Test this. haven't done it. I haven't made an orange cordial. But take the malloc and the citric, and it's 32 grams of citric, and 20 grams of malloc acid per liter of OJ, because OJ is fantastically easy to
+
+[50:43] buy, fresh squeeze, right? Combine that and every, you know, every liter of that OJ, which you can source anywhere, and you can just fly out with the powders, put equal quantity, a kilo of sugar in, bring it up to the boil, let it come down, and use that as your sour mix, should be stable, should be,
+
+[51:00] uh, should be good. Should be good. I haven't done it, so we have to test it. It's going to have a cooked orange flavor, not a fresh orange flavor, but it'll have still
+
+[51:09] like a bright acidity to it. I'll test it. I'll see how it works I throw a couple peels in anyway, but that should be easy and you can source everything. But I don't know. I'm just talking off the top of my head. It's also a matter. I mean, there are other logistical issues. I mean, there is actually there's this desert kitchen, so there is there is a stove. I mean, it's a propane, you know, like one burner, but so there's capability to boil. You only need to do it one time. Yeah, but it's also like, you know, I don't want to, I, you know, there's a lot of people that need to be fed in this kitchen, so I
+
+[51:35] can't, like, commandeer that. I'll tell you what I'll do just for you. When do you have to go? Leaving the last day of August. All right, so we have, you know what I will do? I will take and I will make a non-boiled version of this cordial in quotes because it's not boiled. And I'll throw it in my D high at 110 degrees for a week and we'll see how it
+
+[51:56] tastes. And then we're going to make a powder. Well, no, I'll take the In other words, like, you'll just go out there. You'll buy OJ and sugar out there in Reno, dump the powder, the
+
+[52:05] OJ and the sugar together, stir it until it dissolves, and see how it tastes. I'll just do a test in my dehydrator and see what happens to it. Yeah that sounds great. So this is the key. Light enough to travel with. In the luggage, yeah. In the luggage. shelf stable. Yeah. Enough. Yeah. You know? And is approximates the flavor of real citrus. I mean, well, it will be real citrus. That's what I'm saying. We're not just going to approximate. We're going to make it happening. Okay. We're gonna make it happen. All right. And listen, we're going to have to do a catchup show because I did not get to hardly any. I got exactly to one question. We have lots of questions that I know I owe you guys the answers to. Please don't get angry. We still have your questions. We'll get back to them next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[53:02] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by heritage foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys.
+
+[0:08] For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agents. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Neat work? 1000 Neatwork, Jack. Network. How's that? I don't know. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. How y'all doing? Got Anastasia the Hammer Lopez with me. Got Jack in the engineering booth. Oh, you remembered you, Jack? Oh, Jesus. Last week, like so much was going on. Apparently, I forgot to mention that Zach was at his usual post in the engineering booth. And then apparently what Nastasi's actually doing during the radio show as opposed to paying attention to what's going on is texting Jack. No, Jack and I were texting back and forth. I know, that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, you could literally just say that on air. You don't need to say, 1st of all, obviously, since I was talking to Jack throughout the show, just an oversight and not, you know, some sort of
+
+[1:21] like some sort of like Jack no longer counts. Jack no longer counts, right? Anyways, calling your questions to a 718-497-2128. 718-497212. Hey, listen, you know what? So I'm going to do this like weather forecast out because I don't know anything for sure. But next week, I think we have like a 50% chance of McGee. Whoa, really? Yeah, 50% chance of McGee. may go up or may go down. You know, it's one of those things it's like the weather, like if a butterfly flaps its wings somewhere in Indonesia, we might not get McGee next week, but, you know, you never know. Why 50? he was coming. He's going to be in town and he suggested, hey, maybe I can, like, you know, hang out before and after the radio show. And so he didn't say he would stay during it, but, you know, assuming he doesn't hightail it out. He could, you know, hang out and then we could get some McGee style questions on the air. By the way, one quick thing before I get into it, even though I'm horrendously late. Was that a call I heard, Jack? Do we have a call? Nope. Okay. So I have this thing that really makes me upset. The people who do it aren't bad people, they're not like purposely enemies of quality, which by the way, Stas and I are still working on the shirt. We just have other problems we've been dealing with first. I hate, I don't know, tell me if I've spoken about this in the year before, but I hate seeing people in medical scrubs on the street.
+
+[2:36] I hate it. Yeah. Have I talked about this, Jack, that you remember? No, not that I remember. I hate it. Why? Okay. So scrubs, right? Are the universal symbol that I'm about to do something to your body that requires me to be
+
+[2:49] clean. So I don't want it to be, like, you know, they're designed for, like, in a surgical situation, right? You scrub up, you know, you completely try and scrub, this is me scrubbing. You scrub your hands, wash everything right, and you have these clothes on that are not your street clothes, right?
+
+[3:04] You put on these booties over your feet, presumably, so that it's
+
+[3:09] not like, you know, trampsing around in, you know, your sneaks that you've been, uh, uh,
+
+[3:14] trapsing through like puddles of filth on the street with. And now I am about to do something to you that, like, you know, requires me to not be disgusting. That's what scrubs mean, right? So the opposite of the scrub for medical professional is the lab code, right? Or the a.k.a. the doctor's code. That is designed to protect my street clothes against the nasty stuff that might splash on me, right? See what I'm saying? See the difference? So when I see, and it's compounded by the fact that there's all these people now who have these jobs where they want them to look medically on making those quote-quotes with my
+
+[3:44] hands, those air quotes. They want to look medically, so they make them wear scrubs even though they shouldn't be wearing scrubs as part of their uniforms. Like Dwayne Reed does this sometimes, right? And I just think it's filthy. You know, seeing that is feet. You know? And this the reason I'm bringing up on the show is because it also reminds me, how much do you hate when you see people walking outside in their
+
+[4:02] whites? Right? They're walking outside in their chefs whites. What about the people who have to go outside because they're taking a smoke break? They don't even take their apron off and they're leaning with their, like, filthy apron and their chef whites against some nasty, like, uh, what are those things called? scaffolds that I've seen dogs piss on and people spin on constantly. And then they're smoking and that's what they, you know, they're spitting and smoking. This is like, you know, it's not, you don't want to see that, right? welcome to New York. Yeah, but my point is, is that like every employer should know to tell their folks not to let a customer see them in their whites unless they're cooking. You know what I mean? Because when you're cooking, you're usually pretty on point about not looking like you're like doing something disgusting. Like, but when you're outside, like, you know, who knows whether, you know, you're going to touch your face with your hands, which is revolting. There's all sorts of things that, you know, in terms of cooking. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, people need to get their, their, you know, their street clothes separate from their. Is it that people don't provide places to change? Maybe. Or, I don't want to carry it. I don't want to carry. Is that what it is? Maybe. I don't know. nasty. Am I right? You agree? For one, Stas agrees with me. Unusual. All right. We got a lot of questions to get to, so I'm just gonna start ripping and tearing. What about that thing Cliff showed us last week. Disgusting. I had no idea what that meant. This is disgusting. Just Google ripping and tearing, disgusting, disgusting. Okay, Jack, have you seen this? No, I'm about to, though. there you go. All right. Ken Colgan wrote in on martinis. Hello, Dave Anastasia. I've only just discovered the show and I'm going through the podcast in order. I'm up to number 21. Oh my god, so many more for him to listen to. Oh, geez. So I apologize if somebody's already asked this question. In the British newspaper, The Guardian, in March of this year, former 007, Roger Moore explains how he makes a dry martini. By the way, where does more fit in your pantheon of bonds? Anyone, Stas? No, none. You don't you don't care about Bob? Oh, jeez, you're such a poor quality human. Like, why do you not care about James Bond? You didn't like the movies growing up? No. never watched them. You've never seen a single James Bond? I am, but I just I didn't care for them. You didn't care for any of them? Jack? I've never seen the single James Bond. What the hell is wrong with you people? Oops. Never seen Goldfinger? That would mean you've seen one. don't know the characters, you don't know Jaws. Roger Moore, like one of the character bad guys from his era is Jaws, who's that giant dude who you might remember as the giant dude from
+
+[6:28] Happy Gilmore. You've seen that movie, correct? Mm-hmm. Oh my god, you guys are such... You're just saying, get me off this top. I can't believe you don't know the different Roger Moores. I can understand. They are kind of absurd sexist weird movies with no plot, but like, you know, as a kid, seeing all this stuff blow up. Anyway, Roger Moore, did you see Cannonball run? Yeah, a long time ago. He played a character like him in the cannonball run stuff in like an old, whatever anyway. So, uh, wow, I can't believe I'm dealing with 2 people that I can't pitch anything off of. It's the kind of thing I would normally be like, oh yeah, yeah, of course, but I had to come clean and be honest. You know? All right. you're familiar too. Should we take the call? Yeah, all right. But you're familiar with the fact that James Bond asks absurdly for a shaken martini, right?
+
+[7:15] Yes, this I know. All right, so we can get back to Ken's question after this. Yes, it's absurd, ridiculous. Call her, you were on the air. Hey, Dave, Nastasia and Jackie Molecules. This is Antoine from Boca Ratone. Hey, what's up? How are you guys doing? All right. Alright, cool. I had 2 questions. One was a simpler one. I was wondering if you've ever made a simple syrup with lactose, and if it's possible at all. No, here's why. You can add some lactose to it, but it's not, it's like very low solubility, so you can't get it up to the levels of sweetness that would be required from
+
+[7:49] a simple syrup. You can dope some lactose in, but remember, like even in ice cream, if you use too much dry milk powder, as it freezes down, you'll get lactose crystallization, you get those nasty crystals.
+
+[8:00] Okay, cool. And the other one I asked is if there's a more expedited way to make
+
+[8:06] Tonka Tatsu for ramen. Oh, yeah, I don't know, what's the technique you use now? I've never had I never actually, sadly, never made it myself. what do you do? I was thinking of doing like a half pressure cooker sort of technique,
+
+[8:22] perhaps, and then speeding it up some other way, but I haven't seen anything else
+
+[8:27] on it. Yeah, I mean. I mean, like, like, 1st, like pressuring it, then drying it, then frying it? Yeah. I'm sure that'll work. I mean, I think the trick with the pressure cooking with it is you're going to want to use a super hyper concentrated stock, right? And then after you release it, you're going to want to pull it out and then you're going to want to let it flash off hot to get rid of some of the moisture on the
+
+[8:52] outside, but not so hot that you flash the moisture out of the inside, right? But you're going to need to get pick up your pickup on the outside of the of the thing. So what's your typical, what's the typical dip on this panko, right? Panko with what, like an egg, what's the what's the dip on it? Is it flour, then some sort of egg dip, then panko? Pretty much. I mean, just sometimes they'll mess around with some milks, add in there as well. They're heavy cream or. I'll mess around with different ones each time, but pretty much around that. You might want to get some batter bind or some crisp coat in your initial flour dip to increase adhesion and stop oil penetration
+
+[9:28] down. But there's no reason that won't work. Just use a very concentrated stock and reuse it a bunch of times to do your pressure
+
+[9:33] cooking, and I think you're not going to degrade the flavor of it at all, and it'll be super quickety quick. Or you could just use, you know, one of the many cuts that's going to
+
+[9:41] be like tender as is, and then you can basically just fry from raw, you know? Depends on what cut you're going to use, obviously. Cool. I don't know. I mean, you're always the man of cancer, so I didn't know if you had ever made it before, but it sounds good. Try that out. All right, let's know how it works. All right, thank you very much. Bye bye. All right. Back to this martini. So in the British newspaper, The Guardian, in March, I always forget, when you go on a British airplane, they offer you 2 newspapers, I can't remember what they are, right? But you always, what you always need to ask is you say, which one is the racist one? Because they offer you 2 and one's like some horrible racist drag? And yeah, yeah. And I can never remember which one's which. So I don't know if the guardian's the racist one or the not racist one. I don't know. Someone will tell me. They literally like, one time, the last time I was flying over there, the stewardess was like, and the guy next to me
+
+[10:31] was like, oh, that's the racist one. Get the other one. I was like, oh, good. Thank you. You know what I mean? They all know. And the people who get it know, they're like, yes, I would prefer the racist one. Um, okay. In the British newspaper, The Guardian, uh, former 007, um, Roger Moore explains how he makes a dry martini. You have to be a Sean Connery kind of a person, no? Don't you like Sean Connery? Did you like Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade? Is that your favorite Indiana Jones? think so. Then you like Sean Connery. Okay. Put an egg cup measure of Noi Pratt driver muth into a V-shaped martini glass. First mistake. and swirl it around to flavor the glass. An egg thing. An egg cup? I had to look it up. An egg cup stores an egg. The British eat a lot of soft boiled eggs and then they break the tops off and you have to hold it an egg cup. Stas is making an egg cup face, which is like, imagine the vegan face, but with like just like a huge heaping side dose of derision. And like scorn for whole cultures. Right, yeah. Yeah. Anywho, an egg cup is about 40 mils, which is, you know, like an ounce and a quarter or something around there. All right? So you got that in your mind. First of all, it's a huge waste of, of, well, anyway, put an egg cup measure of
+
+[11:48] Noi Prat, uh, driver muth into a V-shaped martini glass and swirl it around to flavor the glass. V shaped martini glasses, are kind of self-limiting drunk machines because like the drunker you are, the more you spill it before it gets to your face and it's like
+
+[12:02] slash it around. So in a standing cocktail party. It's almost impossible to get 2 hose on a V shaped martini glass before it starts spilling everywhere and people send you home. That's the only good thing I have to say about that glass style. Okay, and swirl it around to flavor the glass. Then tip the vermouth into the cocktail shaker, swirl it around, and then throw away what's left. You just spent like, you know, an ounce and a quarter or so of vermouth. It doesn't take that much to swirl around a glass, but what if, what if, what if. Then put a couple of ice cubes into a shaker, add your measure of gin and so on and so on, and presumably shake and not stirred. So, uh, 1st of all, Mike, you know what my theory on shake and not stirred for James Bond is? That he, uh, because he's a super spy, like he doesn't want to get too wasted,
+
+[12:48] right? Because he might have to shoot someone at any time, and so he
+
+[12:52] like has his martinis horribly watered down. And he doesn't actually, he's probably like a little bit of a of a Nance and doesn't want like too much
+
+[12:59] like, you know, flavor. So he's like trying to get rid of as much flavor as he can. So he's British, so he has to use gin. He can't go, uh, you know, like he has, Well, you know, I got James Bond, though. He does use vodka, gin. I always forget. Anyways, but, you know, Roger Moore, actual British, has to go, you know, gin, because it's British
+
+[13:18] thing, and just shake it until there's like no alcohol or flavor left. And then you could pound a bunch of them and still shoot Irve Villages in the head. you know what I mean? Or like, you know, intercept odd job when he's throwing his super sharp hat at you. Anyways. That's my theory. Obviously, it's going to be horribly overdiluted if you cook it that way, but it will be cold as another thing. Anyway, someone in the comment section said, you may as well just drink a glass of neat gin, not true, not true.
+
+[13:42] You may as well drink a glass of neat gin with a boat ton of water in it, right? Because you made it real watery when you did that. And I have to say that it looks pretty sensible comment to me. Hence the question, does the tiny amount of vermouth that would cling to the sides of the cocktail glass and the shaker actually alter the flavor of the
+
+[13:58] drink if you then add something as strong as gin? Remember, his gin ain't strong anymore because it's been watered to hell because he's shaking that sucker and that's stirring it. Wouldn't gin shaking with ice be much quicker to make, and unless one has an incredibly refined palate tastes pretty much exactly the same, yours, Ken Colgan. No, you taste it. I mean, remember, it's just, uh, you know, water and gin, and so you would taste it. I mean like, look, the other famous classical rinse drinks. I don't believe in rinsing for martinis because I think you should just add vermouth. I think the reason people want such a small amount of vermouth is that they're using like really old oxidized vermouth and, you know, if you were to open a fresh bottle, um, you know, I don't use Nai Pratt in mind, but like if you were to open a fresh bottle of like a
+
+[14:40] high quality vermouth or whatever you like the flavor of, uh, it would be good in a larger amount than that. But the answer is, yes, rinsing does make a difference. Most notably, the most notable rinse drink that human beings make who aren't super spies is the
+
+[14:56] Sazerac, which has a rinse of, well, Arab sand or absinthe on the inside of the glass, and it's quite noticeable if you
+
+[15:02] don't, if you, you know, it's quite noticeable. And so, especially on the aromatic side. So it does make a difference. I don't know about rinsing the tin with it. That just seems kind of, that just seems kind of dumb. It's the equivalent of adding probably like, you know, I don't know, 5 drops, 6 drops, something. We'll make a difference though. You know, I wouldn't make a difference if you were to do something that's incredibly strong flavor, but, you know, gin that's had
+
+[15:26] the crap shaken out of it isn't not going to be a problem. Jeremy Gabbard writes in, I've officially caught up gang. What you think about that as a thing? Gang. gets all of us. I like that the last guy who called me Jackie Molecules. It's pretty strong, right? Well, you know him from Boca Raton. He calls it all the time. Yeah. I'm just liking the name switch here. Now, well, maybe as we're coming out of commercial, you can play the you can play the Jackie Molecules tone. Oh yeah. Jackie molecules. I'm officially caught up on the back catalog of episodes after discovering your podcast a couple of months ago.
+
+[15:56] Man, can you imagine that? No. No. I'd like to dip my toe into low temperature cooking, but I haven't heard too much about
+
+[16:02] circulators. Looking at the A nova precision cooker. Is that what they really call it? A nova precision cooker. Oh, a nova. Yeah, but like precision cooker instead of circulator? Why would you come up with a new name? I don't know. I mean, it does circle. don't. Precision cooker. Um, it's Sanser and the Nomaku. Namaku, famously made by Weepop. Bam, soupy pot. That's his actual last name is Sid Poppy. I love Bam. Bam's a good man. Uh, for home use, and as long as I take into account my water volume slash heating capacity, am I going to miss out anything that the pricier models offer, which the price your models, like, you know, I guess we're talking like
+
+[16:44] the uh, the $800, um, um,
+
+[16:48] Stop, help me out here. $800 polycience. Yeah, the P press makes. Or the slightly heavier duty one, the old lifestyle one. I still love my old metal style, uh, poly-science guy with the metal bottoms because I'm a very, I'm abusive and I sent, so we did the, we shot the
+
+[17:07] uh, Thanksgiving turkey again. the one that, you know, we did, you know, have done a 1000000 times with the, with the, uh, the bionic turkey with the bone structure. And for that one, the metal guy really helps because it's easier to clean the oil out of the metal one and pipe the oil around inside of the bird, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway. Am I going to miss out anything that the pricer models offer? I've read Kenji Lopez Alt's head-to-head, which is a couple, like a year and a half old now, on Sirius Eats, about the different circulators, but I'm curious if there's any of the 3 that you particularly love or
+
+[17:38] hate. Thanks in advance, Jeremy Gabbard. Okay. First of all, I went and read the Sirius Eats. head to head. And there's a couple of things that, I mean, look, any head-to-head that someone writes when someone is sent 3 circulators or 3 anythings, dishwashers, computers, whatever, you have to take with a little bit of a grain of salt, the evaluations that someone does right off the
+
+[17:58] bat because they don't take into account kind of what's happening year in, year out, and also what happens with a number of different
+
+[18:05] users use it. So, you know, you can all go read it, but I'll just comment on some of the things
+
+[18:12] that the, and by the way, I don't have a boat ton of it. I own a Sanser, and I own, owned a Nomaku. Peter Kim stole it from me, but whatever. I owned one of the 1st generation, but I've not had any experience with the 2nd generation Nomikus, which are a little bit different. But I'll try to I'll try to go through. and they all work. They all heat water up and they're pretty accurate. But, um, what, uh, what Kenji said, uh, one of the things he said to worry about is, um, evaporation during
+
+[18:43] cooking and therefore like how, how big a difference there is between the minimum and maximum water levels in, uh, in a
+
+[18:49] circulator. So for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, like circulators have a heating element and a pump. And if either of those things goes dry, then you're in deep, deep trouble. So they all have sensors in them to stop that from happening, but also all units have a minimum water level on
+
+[19:05] the pump and a maximum. The maximum is to protect the electronics and the minimum is to is to prevent overheating or lack of circulation. Now, the thing that people don't list is how effective something is at circulating below its minimum depth.
+
+[19:22] So for instance, if you were to put an immersion circulator into the ocean, it's not going to circulate the stuff at the bottom because the pump really only circulates the stuff at the top.
+
+[19:32] So a factor that nobody takes into account is how well it circulates a
+
+[19:36] bath. Let's say your bath was a stock pot, and your circulator's only hanging out in the top 6 inches or 7 inches of the stock pot, but the stock pot's got another foot
+
+[19:44] below it. Well, how's it doing there? And especially a problem when you talk about that kind of circulation, is the fact that hot stuff rises. And so the stuff that you're circulating and keeping hot tends to tend to rise and the lower temperature stuff tends to settle to the bottom. So how effective something is at agitating a tall pot is going to be a problem, especially if you do a lot of your cooking in things like
+
+[20:06] stockpots. But anyways, having a wide range of minimum to maximum depth is important if long cooking foods are on the agenda. 150 degree, this is Kenji Redding, 150 degrees, water and a metal pot with a 10 inch diameter, and 2 gallons of water will drop in height by about an inch every 8 hours due to evaporation in my apartment.
+
+[20:26] And then he says, covering the top with foil or plastic wrap, don't use foilers, plastic wrap, covering the top with plastic,
+
+[20:33] plastic wrap can cut this down, but the possibility that the water level will drop below the minimum line during
+
+[20:38] an extended cook is a very real one. Not. Listen, you should never run a circulator for any length of time that's not
+
+[20:46] covered. I'm going to go back and say this again. You should never run a circulator without covering it for any length of time. It's just really, really bad practice. Okay? So, I mean, like, and this is one of the 1st things I teach people. So for me, you know, like how much the water level is going to drop is not that much of an issue because I know that I'm always going to be running
+
+[21:06] with plastic on the top. The exception being if you're running it during service. If you're running it during service and you're going to be going in and out, then, and you're just doing a retherm bath. And maybe you don't need to. But whatever. The other thing is that I thought was kind of a little bit misleading on
+
+[21:24] the on the review there is that talking about the clips on
+
+[21:28] the back of it. Kenji liked the screw clamp. You know, remember the old screw clamps that you used to use on the poly sciences? Yeah, I hate them, right? I like, that's why the newer poly sciences have this quick release, guys that pop out, because the, you know, Kenji's worried that you're going to, that the clip's going to fail and you're going to drop the circulator into the
+
+[21:46] water. The only time in, you know, the well over a decade that I've been using circulators on a consistent basis, that I've ever dropped one in water, was because I was so angry trying to yank the sucker off because I had to unscrew the thing in back and
+
+[22:00] I kept on catching on the lid of the on the backside of the rim of the
+
+[22:03] canbro. I was like yanking on it because I was so angry. You know how I get stuff. I was yanking on it and I pulled it up, yanked it so hard that it tipped and fell into the water bath.
+
+[22:12] And that's the only time I've ever dropped it and it was because it was firmly clamped. I regularly rip the clamps out of the screw things out of the back and just place it over the edge. So I'm not really worried about that. And the other thing that's not taken into account in the review that's very important is you have to ask yourself,
+
+[22:29] what, um, what are you going to put the thing into, right? So, uh, one thing, one thing that, like, if you look at, for instance, the old metal style polycience versus the
+
+[22:40] newer uh, plastic style polycience, uh, the newer plastic style one is narrower. And the nomiku is very, very narrow. And what that means is it takes up less space in your circulating bath. So you have to ask yourself kind of what you're going to be circulating in, and whether you're going to be pushing the limits of the
+
+[22:55] bath, because the amount of space that the circulator takes up in the bath is a very real limitation for a lot of people who are cooking in smaller,
+
+[23:03] like smaller vessels on their counter. Yeah? But they all work. Uh, I found uh, the sun Sarah doesn't like to run pure oil, uh,
+
+[23:13] found that uh, when we were doing a Harvard lecture, um, but, you know, that's about it. But again, if you have the money and durability is the ultimate thing, then the old school metal polyscience guys, I think, are still pretty tough to beat. You know what I mean? Yeah. Got to call her. Call her, you are on the air. Hey, Dave, got a quick question. It's homebrew base, but it probably applies to a lot of cooking. It has to do with gelatin using it as a clarifier. Sure. I've been eye arguing for years with my fellow
+
+[23:44] homebirds, and they insist that if you, you know, you dissolve it in some hot water before you add it.
+
+[23:49] And they say if you bring it to a boil. It's useless. It deactivates the gelatin. But I've always brought to a boil just to sanitize. I've never had a problem, and I figured you would be the one to say whether this is hogwash or not. What do you think? I would bring it to a boil herd it. how they make gelatin. Like, what's the argument about not boiling it? The homebrewers, I guess, in the old literature, and they still cling to it says that if you bring the water to a boil that's got the gelatin in, it somehow deactivates the gelatin and won't work
+
+[24:20] anymore, that's crazy, right? I mean, it seems crazy. Is it some special gelatin? Is it some super hyper fancy gelatin? No, just regular Nox gelatin? Hogwash, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hogwash. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Look, look, look, maybe there's, I could see that there's some sort of like gelatin solution that you could buy that's not set, that is like, you know,
+
+[24:43] the, where the gelatin is in some particular way, but then you wouldn't want to heat it at all because you'd mess with the configuration.
+
+[24:48] Like the solubility of gelatin, uh, it solubleizes at a pretty low temperature, right? But then, you know, bringing to an extended boil. If you boil the hell out of it, you'll start to hydrolize it. But let's not forget, how do you make how do you make gelatin in stock, right? You boil bones and meat to break the collagen down into gelatin, right? I mean, that's what you do. I mean, I've boiled, you know, I mean, no, I don't think that's a problem. I think extended boiling in acidic condition, because you're boiling it just in plain water, right? Yeah, just plain water. Yeah. I mean, extended boiling and acidic environments will hydrolyzed the gelatin, for sure, but I've boiled gelatin many times and had it still set or, you know, I, you know, I, I,
+
+[25:39] I don't, I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't understand. Is there any actual literature on it, though? Is there any like scientific literature on it? No, you know how home brewers, they often just pick things up from, you know, other related things like, you know, skimming the top off your beer because they do it with stock, you know, and they just, uh, I think just extrapolate it over and they don't really have any real reason to do
+
+[26:06] it, and then they get told a couple of times and they just stick with it, whether it's, you know, never questioning it. All right. Well, if any pro brewers out there listening, uh, you know, um, don't send us in some information and we'll see. All right, thanks a lot. Let's take a quick commercial and come back.
+
+[26:36] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Well, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[26:52] farming you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them, and heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family
+
+[27:13] farmers, and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[27:28] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us in heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. You have to eat them to save them. Hey, we're back. So what are we going to play Jackie Molecules on the way out since we're running out of time? Oh, yeah, we can do that. Yeah, when we leave, we'll just do an outro on Jackie molecules because it's the greatest thing that's ever happened. By the way, the now legendary ringtone, as I'm being told by listeners, we got so many emails this week for it. Oh, yeah. Taken off. going viral. Viral. It's better than better than my ringtones. Like Nastasius, you are mean to me. But I don't even need to like play my phone because it's just my voice saying you're mean to me. Anyway, Caleb Sexton sent us in some of these Super Jack. you can have some of these too. Super high bricks apricots. This new variety, I think out of California, and he dehydrates them, but they start out at like 20 something bricks, which is like super high
+
+[28:39] sugar. Uh, and so you know what Salas Stas is eating? I know how super sweet they are at the end. But the thing is, I think what we should do before you dehydrate them to turn them into real flavor bombs is just throw a little more acid into it. What do you think, Stas? Don't they just dehydrate on their own out there in California now? You're from there. You tell me. Because of the, I'm saying, like, no water. Isn't it easier for them to like? No, I mean, acid, not for me, not. I mean, acid just. You're saying put lime on them? Well, not lime necessary. I'd have to look up whatever the acid base of apricot is, but I'm saying, like, in other words, the sweetness is so high that it could stand more acidity to back it up.
+
+[29:18] I like it like this. But I'm saying before it dehydrates, cut it, sprinkle at the acid, like kind of go into it. So you get to level exactly. You're saying you wouldn't want a little more acid? You like it just like this? Nice. Yeah. And what do you think about these as opposed to Blenheim's? See, I like blenheims because they're super high acid. Yeah, like these better. Yeah? Jack, you should come and try one while we're doing this. I can't talk because I'm eating apricot. Erica wants one, sir. That's it in. Pass it in. By the way, Jack, do you think sharp and hot should be said with like a Boston style accent? I think it should? Shut up. Shop. Yes. Yeah. Anyway. Ethan Kushner wrote in a while ago about lentil tofu. I think I talked about it. So if I forgot to talk about lentil, because we had so many weeks where I would start answering things and then stopped. If I've talked, if I've not talked about lentil tofu and the possibilities, please, just, you know, whatever, email us back and let us know. And we'll do it the same about, like, Alex from Toronto wrote in about carrots. I think I talked about that too, about like stiffening carrots and whether that's a known reaction in other vegetables. I think I talked about it, but it's hard to know because I can't tell. Uh, Elliot Papineau wrote in. And he wants to say, can Dave talk about the awesomeness of friendship penny? Friendship penny. You like that stuff, says? What is it again? That's the that's the... Okay, so you know how like, you're not a Marzipan fan, right? But like if you add eggs to it and other stuff to de-stiffen it a little bit and they make it pipeable, that's the stuff that's like inside of a king
+
+[30:48] cake. You ever eat king cakes? You know what a king cake is, though? On, like, uh, like, Mardi Gras, like, before the king cake is, like, got the sugar with the colors. And inside of it is that kind of like more creamy almond crap that's not marts band. You like that stuff? I guess so. I love that stuff. I want what I want to do is start making things like that because his question came in. I'm like damn, you know what? Like we have the capability to grind this stuff down. We should do that with, uh, by the way, Caleb Styles is loving your apricot. She sitting here munchicating on them. Um, is we should do that with pecans. Wouldn't that be good? That'd be good stuff, right? Anyway. So, Elliot, I don't have too much to say because I don't make it that much myself. I think it's a good product, but I will, uh, now you've got me uh, stoked on the idea of, uh, of, uh, Marzipan.
+
+[31:39] By the way, did we ever talk about the Agar noodles? Because I know there was an Agar noodle question, but I didn't get to it. Whoever wrote in the Agar noodle question, just write back to me and I'll see. Okay. Hey, cooking issues, team. I have a hydrocoloid question. My death row meal is spaghetti with chopped garden tomatoes. You hate tomatoes, right? Yeah, me too. Someone tweeted me in today and said, can you eat the blossoms of the tomato
+
+[32:05] plant? And I was like, it might have too much of the tomato wean, which is, you know, whatever, the alkaloid that's related to, like, solanine or whatever, the
+
+[32:11] Solanace-E style, uh, like alkaloid that's in tomato plants, which is why you're not supposed to eat a boat ton of the green tomato stuff.
+
+[32:18] You know what I'm talking about? Why did you want to eat that? Well, that's my point. I was like, frowny face, every tomato blossom you rip off is one less tomato you get. Like who has that many tomatoes in their life? Not me. Are you how your tomatoes growing? Good. they're all green right now Yeah, nice. strong. Anyway, my death row meal is spaghetti with chopped garden tomatoes, basil, garlic, oil, and salt. I make this often in the summertime when perfect tomatoes are available. Part of the process involves chopping and salting the raw tomatoes to draw out moisture that would otherwise water down the pasta. What do you think about watering down the pasta sauce? Oh, good. Hate? hate. Watering down the pasta. The liquid drawn out of the tomatoes is quite tasty, and I hate that it is no longer part of the sauce. I figured if I could thicken thicken it, it would adhere to the spaghetti and increased deliciousness. My hydrocolid knowledge is essentially zero, but I tried Xanthan, and that's what I had. It thickened the tomato water nicely and also made me want to puke when I ate it because it was so snotty. That's a technical term, snotty. Yeah, I would not use Xanthe. Imagine like a Xanthan pasta. Nastasia is making her, I'm about to puke face with the Xantha and pasta. I also don't want a heat slash reduce the water to avoid losing the raw tomato flavor.
+
+[33:32] So what would you recommend? And in what percentage, to thicken the tomato water, so it can be added back to the chopped tomatoes on the pasta. Thanks, dreaming of summer meals with my favorite pasta, soon with more tastiness, Jason. I think you're kind of in like you're hoeing a tough road here, Jason. Because, uh, to thicken stuff appreciably, uh, you're going to have to add a, a boat, a boat ton of stuff. I would use, I would use pre-gelatinized agglomerated starch is what I would
+
+[34:02] use. And then you're basically thickening it the way that cooking with a starch. Uh, so I would use uh, like ultra spurse. You want to get a spurse and not a text. The reason I would use starch is because you need to use relatively large percentages of starch, which means that it
+
+[34:21] will diminish the flavor somewhat, but it's also super easy to dose in and dose
+
+[34:27] out. You're not going to go way over. And if you use a, it takes a couple of minutes. You don't want to add it all right away because it takes a couple minutes to fully hydrate, but it's really easy to use and kind of
+
+[34:37] cooks measurements, like just like sprinkling a pinch in and getting it to do what you want. Whereas most other hydrocoloids, if you were going to use like, you know, guar or an LBG, I think you're not going to get, we're used to starch thickened sauces, and so I think it's going to be, I think that might be the way to go in this situation.
+
+[34:53] But still, I don't know if you're going to have as good a result as you would get out of, for instance, pulling the pasta a couple minutes earlier,
+
+[34:59] doing, or, you know, a couple seconds earlier, doing a very quick drain, and then immediately tossing it with the tomato juice that comes
+
+[35:07] out because that's tomato juice. remember, you salted it. It's salty too, right? So that's going to increase the salt level of your of your pasta. But if you just leave everything else out, like, you know, the tomatoes that you have out, toss the pasta in
+
+[35:20] the in the straight tomato water, uh, like, and just pull it a couple of seconds earlier, I think it'll absorb a good, wouldn't you think it would absorb a good bit of that
+
+[35:29] stuff? And so I think if you pull like, uh, like, you know, 30, I don't know, how long does a spaghetti cook? 8 or seven? Seven? Seven? Depends, yeah, for you and Mark, it's like it cooks for like 2 minutes. Yeah. But anyway, pull it like a good, like, I would say maybe like 30 seconds earlier than you normally would. Then make sure that you toss the stuff in, but keep it hot. Like I would put the bowl back. Something that I will do is I'll cook my pasta in a colander inside of my pot, right? Do you do that, Stas? So that way I can just pull the colander out? No I don't have that. Anyway, I pull the colander out. You do the fast drain, then you put it into the bowl, and if you keep the bowl warm, like over the water that's been boiling, it makes a starchy mess, but keeping it warmer as you're tossing in the tomato water will help it absorb more as opposed to when it, but
+
+[36:21] let it flash off. If you cover it, it'll keep warm and absorb more, but it also won't flash off
+
+[36:26] moisture. And their whole goal here is to add more liquid while it's flashing off moisture. Yes, Daz? Then add your tomatoes afterwards and go. The super baller technique. And this is going to be, I have to be the last thing I say. I still have to get to uh, I still have to get to Steven from uh, Moscow on uh, on ovens and, you know, he's trying to get the physiga, the uh, the thing. And Alex from San, it's too late. He already visited San Francisco, but McGee will be here so we can talk about it. And we'll finally get to Michael and his blown ziploc bags. But the most baller technique would be to go drop a cool 10 grand on a really nice roto app setup and just roto app that tomato stuff down so that you get real
+
+[37:05] hyperconcentrated tomato, you know, like you can make almost like a puree out of it, in a roto app without ever heating it, cook the pasta and toss that in.
+
+[37:15] It'll be the most tomato-y pasta ever. Cooking issues. Well, I'm going to play this Jackie molecules on the way out. Jackie Molecules
+
+[37:36] Jackie Molecules. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[37:51] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
+
+[38:19] Tell your mouth. You ain't coming home again. You got to tell your father. You gonna out with me again, yeah? When touch nothing now love
+
+[40:17] I've been watching you.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley, host of Full Service radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this show, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, is just coming to you live, Robert's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network, joined as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? But also in the studio, we have special guests. We have Jack Schram from the bar. Say hello, Jack. Hi, Dave, how you doing? We have Jackie molecules in the engineering booth. Yep. And Harold McGee, Gee, Gee, Gee, here from California. What's up? Call your questions two. 718-497-2128. That 718-4972128. How you doing, girls? Very well, thanks Dave. Nice. And Jack, how did you survive? Jack was at the Jack did the cocktail apprentice program. Jack, not I'm going to call you molecules. Yeah, I'll be molecules. molecules. Yeah. or Jackie, yeah, Jackie molecules. So Jack, Shram, Bartender, Booker and Dax, intrepid bartender, Booker and Dax, was just part of the cocktail prints program at Tales of the Cocktail. Just got back. Did you survive? Just barely, Dave. Yeah, it's a, there a, let's a hard living group of folk. It certainly is. Yeah. But it was it was a lot of fun. I learned such an incredible amount. It was a fantastic experience. Nice. Nice. All right. So, Harold, uh, you got you got anything to, uh, anything to report what brings you to our fine, fine city? I came to visit the CIA up in Hyde Park. They have a new culinary science program. So I was finding out about that. And then came down to the city to catch up on what's happening here. Now, culinary science as opposed to food science is more like your alley, the study of delicious. Yeah, the study of what cooks do to make food for people rather than what
+
+[2:07] industrial factories do to make food for people. I see. I see, industrial industrial factories. All right. So let's get to some questions. see what we have here. Stas, did we answer the question on root beer? Did anyone remember whether I answered the question on root beer? don't think so. don't think so. Oh man. All right. Rob Handle. See, I never know whether I've answered it, and that's here, and I just got to answer it again anyway, so I'm sorry if I already interested. answered it. Rob Handle wrote it. said, I was the guy that called today about running root beer in a draft system. Of course, that was like a month ago that he actually called because I'm so behind. But I had bad cell service and got cut off. I'm aware that the persistence of root beer flavor, and I'm willing to dedicate a corny keg or 2, as well as the lines to the cause. I've had a couple of main concerns other than that. The recipe I developed has about 20 herbs. roots and spices and generates a lot of sediment. What's the best way to clarify this, so I won't have major filming issues. I'm also working with space constraints. Would I be able to safely sanitize the corny keg, pour in the boiling soda base, then seal it and keep it at room temperature? What I need to sulfide it to ensure it is safe? I would run it through a cold plate to chill and ensure carbonation. Any other concerns, I should be awareabout when setting up the system. I'm looking to have root beer and sparkling water on tap, then rotating a seasonal soda on the 3rd line. Um, You are talking about doing a hot fill. And not to be confused with Nastasia's friend, Phil, right? And I think that's going to work fine. You see any problems with that? Like, as long as the yeast is killed, the CO2 line's not going to bring yeast into it, as long as you get no back contamination or backflow, you shouldn't have any problem with the hot fill, just wait for it to be super cold before you
+
+[3:43] carbonate it. Yeah? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? You know that stuff. You want to, if I'll give you a couple words of advice, since that's what you hear, right? Boil the lids, make sure everything that touches the inside, including the lids, is boiled. Pour it in, boiling, cap it immediately, flip it upside down, and let it boil the top of the thing before it goes. And then if possible, blow a little bit of stuff through the
+
+[4:12] tubes, to make sure the tubes are sanitized, while the stuff is still hot to kill everything. Ain't nothing that kills you, gonna grow in the soda. What's going to happen is you're going to get yeast and other sorts of kind of things that just make it
+
+[4:25] either either reduce its residual sugar, increase its alcohol content or make it nasty,
+
+[4:29] right? Yeah, I mean, funky, fruity, nasty. Not horrific. But yeah, not what you want. Yeah. Root beer ain't your funky, fruity, nasty kind of, kind of beverage. Although funky, fruity, nasty. Can you make a cocktail call funky fruity nasty? Absolutely, Dave. was already thinking about it. All right, nice. Got a caller whenever you're ready. All right, so I'll finish this and we'll get the caller. So, uh, on the foaming, um, okay, I'm just gonna put this out here. You are, as we used to say in the trade, SOL. Like, uh, like, 1st of all, anything out of a keg like that, you're going to have more foaming than you
+
+[5:04] would uh, out of like a bottle service, but also, all those barks, not only, you have to get it 100% clear, which you could totally
+
+[5:12] clear, meaning no particles, which you could do through a number of filtration methods or even probably with a clarification step if you had to, but that's not going to get rid of the kind of surface active crap that's in barks and roots that causes things to kind of foam up on you.
+
+[5:29] So it's like, it's just you're an inherently foamy kind of situation. The good news is, is that root beer is a relatively low carbonation, foamy product anyway. That's why it's root beer and not root IPA. You know what I mean? No? All right, caller, you were on the air. Hey, um, I heard last week that Harold McGee might be on and I had a question that I thought he could perhaps answer. Um, I've been uh, steering a lot of my food lately with the Sears
+
+[5:59] all, and I was reading on, on food and cooking, um, specifically this section on, uh, I think it's heterocyclic amines that are created during the
+
+[6:07] searing process or high temperature cooking. You should win a prize. That's the 1st time that's been... Go ahead. You're the 1st person that has ever mentioned heterocyclic amines on the show, and so I believe you deserve a prize.
+
+[6:18] Go ahead. Okay. So I was just wondering, is it smart, like, from a health standpoint, to pair seared foods with something that has antioxidants, like a drink or
+
+[6:28] something? Um, or is it just, it's, it's not that um, that important. Ah, so um, I would say, I mean, of course, there really isn't good scientific information about a question like that.
+
+[6:43] We can only sort of extrapolate from the knowledge that heterocycamines are formed in high temperature processing of foods, and they seem not to be good for
+
+[6:52] us, and so you probably want to minimize intake.
+
+[6:56] And then also, I'm not sure that antioxidants per se are going to be helpful
+
+[7:02] because, um, you know, these toxins are toxic, not by oxidizing things. It's by reacting with with important molecules like DNA and RNA. But I think what it does make sense to do is to eat that food with, as you said, a good
+
+[7:19] drink, with all kinds of complicated other materials in it, but also vegetables and fruits, which have all kinds of stuff that we really don't know about, but that is probably going to be there, if not to counteract the activity of something like heterocyclic a means, then at least dilute them so that they're less likely to cause problems. So I
+
+[7:41] think bottom line, just having uh, a meal with lots of different uh, elements to it along with your wonderfully seared food is the
+
+[7:51] is the way to go. Yeah, my favorite would be a glass of nice glass of red wine. Yeah, yeah. To start. Yeah, yeah. Which it may or may not do wonders for your heart, but it does wonders for your soul. Yes, right? All righty. Well, thanks so much for calling in. Yeah, thank you All right, bye. All right. So here's a, we didn't answer the agar noodle question, yeah? I might as well get to it. Remember the old Agar noodles that people used to make? Like Johnny used to make them and Faran made them and they would get keep the Agar kind of in a warm state and then put it through a tube in
+
+[8:29] a ice bath. remember that? So I think someone's writing about that, but let's find out. I didn't even look it up because I was like, I got noodles. I don't need to research that. I can do that in my sleep. I had a question about a recipe on piecing together. I wanted to make spaghetti and red sauce, by the way. Spaghetti. I had a line, no more of a jetty comments today, although I had some people write me in. Um, I wanted to make a spaghetti and have you used a veggetti? No? No? No? Jack, do you own a veggetti? I do not own a veggetti. I do not own a veggetti. I use one. don't own it. No, it's like, you know what it is, though, right? No I don't. Oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's time for the talk. All right. I said I wouldn't do it. But what happened? Okay. So, like, you know, they, you know, the, like, the Ben Renner things that, like, you can take a potato and turn it into, like, a long strip or it can make shreds?
+
+[9:19] So if you if you were to take that, make it less expensive, shape it like an oversized pencil sharpener that could, let's say, take a cucumber sized thing or even maybe even a
+
+[9:31] daikon. So, uh, and you could twist it, and it turns said, uh, stick shaped, uh, uh, item, veg
+
+[9:42] into uh, strips. And so someone was like, those are kind of like noodles. Maybe I could use it like a noodle. And so instead of just calling them kind of threads or filaments, decided to say they are spaghetti, which in fact, they're not the same shape as spaghetti. Spaghetti is what shape does. What shape is spaghetti? No, what shape is cross section? Yeah, it's round. It's round. Does it veggetti produce round things? So does it produce spaghetti? Could it ever produce spaghetti? Because spaghetti is not merely pasta in a long form, people. Spaghetti has a freaking cross section, but someone in there in their infinite wisdom. decided that this is just like a spaghetti. Maybe they're thinking of spaghetti squash, which, by the way, I think, used as a spaghetti, whatever. I am not going to get into it because everyone here likes spaghetti squash. surrounded by spaghetti squash lovers. But, uh, they decided they were going to call it a Vegetti. A veggetti. And the non-brand name of the jetty is spiralizer. And so people have written, a lot of people, actually, as it turns out, have written cookbooks on spiralizing vegetables because the
+
+[10:48] Vegetty people won't let them use their name because they don't want to, we, look, we had Vegetty don't want to become the Kleenex or spiralizers, all right? You know what I mean? basically what's happening. So you've never used one? You have any thoughts? I need to go out and get one Wow. I'm sure someone listened to this would be more than happy to send a
+
+[11:08] veggetti. You know, are they sponsor yet? What's going on? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know. in touch with us. Yeah. Anyways, I had a question about recipe I'm piecing together. I wanted to make spaghetti and red sauce with the flavors of a tequila sunrise. Jack, give us his specs for tequila sunrise. Tequila sunrise, 2 ounces, repo. I don't know, Dave, we don't do sunrises at the bar. Yeah, right? But do you have to keep it all layered so that it looks like, is it sunrise or sunset? Sunrise? Sunrise. Yeah, yeah. See, it should really be like, if it's sunrise, it should really be like creme Yvette. Because sunrises are not... They're like bluish gray sunrise. I don't think that would be incredibly delicious, though, with the Crime event. I think I detest it. In general. I think it's, I mean, like, I'm sure somebody likes it. Uh, not me. Like, do you like crime a bit? Not especially. Harold, do you like it here? Nope. Do you like fruity pebbles? Fruity pebbles? Oh, you don't have fruity pebbles? Oh, it's the Fred Flintstone branded cereal that looks like aquarium
+
+[12:17] rocks, like multicolored aquarium rocks. Anyways, like, it tastes just like that, but somehow Fruity Pebbles at least has crunch. anyway, I'm not a fan. I'm just saying. Okay. So I think I should call it a tequila sunset. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that. Okay. How do you think the alcohol and the acidity of the OJ would affect the amount of agar you would need to add to the liquids? Ah, look, as long as you're not going above, like, yang, yang, like, 15, 20% ABV? I don't know, you might need to add a little bit of extra agar, maybe, but not, but I mean, technically you
+
+[12:55] should technically you wouldn't because whatever, it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't worry about it too much because I wouldn't put the alcohol level that high anyway.
+
+[13:02] One thing I will say is you cannot have something that's at high alcohol and boil and sufficiently hydrate the
+
+[13:10] agar. So you will need to hydrate the agar in the juice slash whatever, water base,
+
+[13:15] um, start it cold, boil it, let it simmer for a while for a couple of minutes. Then you're going to want to temper the alcohol into that mix, not the other way around because you don't want to get pre-gelation. And then you want to keep it warm enough to put it through whatever you see or whatever it is you're using to make the noodles, the
+
+[13:33] noodles. I was also wondering how you think the texture would come out. The Agar noodles, frankly, they're a little brittle and they break kind of easy. So, um, you know, you might want to switch or add, uh, like a softener, like a texturizer to it. Like, it's not specifically something that people use for it, but, like, LBG or any sort of, like, uh, softening thing is gonna make it a little more spaghetti-like. Plus, also, you never make spaghetti with this either, because the noodles are always a bigger thing. They're more like udon. Right? You know what I'm talking about. These, like, these agar noodle things are a little more like udon. But I would follow, you know, any of the Martin Lairsh still puts out the text, what does he call that thing? The textures. What do you call that thing? It's like a compilation of every chef's recipes on hydrocoloids. He still puts it out. Just check and see what kind of ag on noodles, learning that one and see what happens. All right. Justin wrote in on from prom springs on an anti-griddle. Hello, Dave Nastasio, Nastasia. Nastasia. Do you believe that? How many years have I worked with these stars? Can't get your name right. All these years later. Nastasia. Jack and whatever interlopers. Oh, what, what up? Harold McGee is now an interloper, Jack, you count because it's double jack. He doesn't say Jackie molecules in here, said Jack. As I was searching the inner web for instructions on building my own anti-griddle somewhat unsuccessfully. For those of you that, does he still make them? Does Philip Preston still make the antic riddles? don't know. I haven't seen them in a long time. Grant Aikens, who, you know, from a linear, an aviary, and next, who, by the way, was at
+
+[15:03] Tales of the Cocktail. and paired a cocktail with seared beef. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, not for its antioxidant properties, I assume. I don't think so. Yeah. And he brought the giant porthole, which holds like something like, you know, it's like a frat party should get that thing.
+
+[15:18] It was like, how many gallons did he say it held? I want to say you said 70 liters, but yeah, something ridiculous. A lot of cocktail. A lot of cocktail. A lot of cocktail. Big, big freaking, what's it called? porthole. Yeah. Uh, and he was blowing his the caramel balloons and whatnot. Yeah, fun. you think he had a good time? I don't know. Did you see him in any of the parties afterwards? No. No? Me neither. I didn't really go, though. I was like, I was like holed up in the in a closet as I as I want to be. Anyways. So, uh, Philip Preston made this thing, uh, anti-griddle for, uh, um, Alinia way back in the day. I don't know what they made it for. My impression was he made it for a linear when they were opening, because I guess they didn't have LN at the time, liquid nitrogen or something, and they wanted a chilling
+
+[16:02] technique, because remember, at that time, which was at 05? Somewhere around there, yeah. Yeah, that was an interesting period of time in the US because the guys in Spain were already like, you know, you know, using liquid nitrogen, like
+
+[16:17] it, like it had no cost and like, you know, Faran had like, you know, 5 doers of it in, you know, and like, you know, uh, Danny Garcia was like, you know, just like, you know, whatever, just turn on the tap and walk away from it, like, you know, like California 5 years ago with water before you guys went
+
+[16:33] totally uh, totally dry on. But, um, So anyway, I think he wanted a way to replicate some of those effects without having to have liquid nitrogen.
+
+[16:41] So the anti-griddle is, in effect, a flat plate that chills things down. And the big thing that Grant used to do is he used to make like creme anglaise, pour it on the thing, stick a stick into
+
+[16:49] it, make little creme anglaise, lollipops. Lollipops. Um, anyways, uh, wow, that was a long tangent. I haven't even finished the question yet. I came across a forum in which someone was discussing creating a high pressure environment. So, yeah, it's not the question's not even about the anti-griddle. Interesting. I came across a form in which someone's discussing creating a high-pressure environment inside a pressure cooker by putting dry ice inside. This got me wondering if that technique would work for rapid infusion in the same way as an
+
+[17:17] easy canister, but on a larger scale. I've heard most of your ransom rays concerning the pressure cooker. So you're the obvious one to come ask, assuming I haven't modified anything on my cooker, is this safe to
+
+[17:25] try? Is it safe to try? Is it safe? Well, uh, whether or not it's safe to try depends on how fast your pressure cooker can eject the excess pressure and how much CO2 you put
+
+[17:43] in, how much dry ice you put into it. I'm going to go ahead and say no. Plus also you can't modify a pressure cooker to withstand much more than about 20 PSI because the side gaskets will blow out. There's 3 or 4 safety features on every pressure cooker. And I wouldn't, you're not going to get it above about 20 PSI and you're
+
+[18:01] pulling, I'd have to go back and look at my charts and liquid intelligence to find out, but in an EC, you're getting like 60, 70, 80 PSI. What you want to do is get a corny keg. Get a corny keg and, you know, you can use CO2, you just have to wait for it to flash off, but it'll work, you know, much like nitrous, but you have to wait for it to flash off so it doesn't have any
+
+[18:19] petillons left when it's done. But I would go corny keg and then you could do 5 gallons at a time and you can get a corny keg still for, you know, not very much. What do you guys think? Modify the pressure equipment. no right? No, I'd be worried about, you know, condensation freezing up in the in the valve. Yeah, just kind of blocking it. So you, so I wouldn't mess with it. You ever have one of the other safety features? I've had them all fail on me I've had I've had every safety feature vent one way or the other on more than one
+
+[18:48] occasions. You know what it's not? Pleasant. Not pleasant. Dave, anytime you're saying something is potentially unsafe, and you're saying it, I would highly recommend you do not do that thing. Yeah, yeah. and there's no winks and nods here. It's not a good idea. And I look, I'd be willing to figure out a way that I thought it would be safe, except for the fact that I'd also don't think it'll be
+
+[19:08] effective, because you're not going to be able to get the pressure high. Yeah. Anyway. Hey Dave. Yes. A weird question emailed to Heritage just now for Greg and Queens who says, Harold sounds like the nicest guy on the planet, but does he have a freaky side? Whoa. Should I let Nastasia answer that? Maybe. What? Harold, so why don't you describe to us your freakier side? No. I'm
+
+[19:43] not going to, Dave. Dave, just have Harold come to Tales with you next year. Harold's been Details. He's been to Tales. Did you see the freaky side? That's the place that comes out. Oh, no, you didn't, Dave. Hey, you know? Yeah, you know, we got to take you to Vegas and I'll know. then stays in Vegas. You know I've never been to Vegas. You haven't? Nope. Wow, that's a kind of a crazy question. I think it, yeah. Did it say who was? Greg in Queens. There you go, Greg. There you go, Greg. So take it take it as take it however you want, but you're not going to get anything out of him on the air. That's for sure. But in fact, I will say this, and Stas, you can back me up on this. He is, in fact, the super nice fellow that you hear here on the radio. Like, that's, like, legitimately, that's legitimately the, uh, the herald that you will that you will get if you meet him in the real life. Oh, Justin, last thing you said in a PS, because Stas 9 to get off our butts. is your next book should be called Enemies of Quality. We're still working on a t-shirt. You know about the enemies of quality? It's, uh, well, an enemy of quality is someone who does things to hurt the
+
+[21:01] product, like food or beverage in a way that's just, you know, like not so much purposeful, but just
+
+[21:08] neglectful. Most enemies of quality are just neglectful. Because they're not looking out after quality. I mean, that's Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like uh, like imagine buying a loaf of uh, crusty bread and then putting it in the fridge. With that person. Or a plastic bag. Oh, well, yeah, because it, because of the, uh, well, do you, what do you like these modified plastic bags that allow for venting or
+
+[21:32] are you still, we're about right after baking, putting in a plastic bag, devil, Satan. Yes. Yeah, yeah. horrible. Terrible. But like, what about do you do you like these bags with the venting things or no? Um, not really. Nope. First of all, Harold lives in like one of the in like one of the greatest places for just keeping things on the counter. Like in San Francisco, you can just keep anything just like on the counter, right? Well, you can, but I mean, the, I mean, it's not as humid there as it is here right now, but it is like 50, 60%, which means that
+
+[22:02] the loaf of bread is going to get, the crust is going to suffer with time. But there's nothing you can do about that, really, except just keep
+
+[22:12] the bread as optimally as possible for the whole loaf and then crisp it up in the oven. Are you also suggesting that people eat their bread in a timely fashion? Uh, that is advisable too, although these days when people make these gigantic, you know, like £4 loaves. It's a little hard to do that. But. Yeah, but, you know, that's why I like it when people sell quarters. You know? So what are your thoughts on bread boxes? Um, in my experience, they're great
+
+[22:43] for if you if you have a kitchen where there's a lot of traffic in and out, it's nice to kind of keep
+
+[22:48] it out of the way. But I like to just take a paper bag, cut cut one part of the loaf, put that face down on a cutting board, and then just kind of put a
+
+[23:01] bag, paper bag loosely over the top. And it doesn't look as nice as a bread box, but I think it does about the same. That's the Harold McGee bread box right
+
+[23:11] there. You want to take a commercial break and come right back? Is that to me? Yes. All right. Jackie Molecule is coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[23:31] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[23:48] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them, and heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal
+
+[24:11] producers, whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb
+
+[24:24] chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[24:29] humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. You gotta slit their throats to save them. Well, it's true. And oh, welcome back to cooking issues with Harold McGee. Harold wants to say churro. Cheryl, you give me some churro? Churro. Nice. Nice. Right? Okay, maybe you can do that. Would you be willing to do like a, Hey, Jack, you want to get Harold McGee? Maybe you can say something nice about the radio station. Maybe you would. don't know. Maybe he would. I'm kind of calling him out. I didn't ask in advance whether he'd be willing to. Maybe he'd say something nice about us. I don't know I don't know. Sure, sure. Give me a script. He's like, I have nothing that I actually want to say that's nice. But if you have something nice to say, ma'am, I'll read it. No, I don't know what you need. That's true. You want to help out? All right, nice. All right. Sam right saying, hi, guys. I'm trying to create a mother of vinegar just for kicks. When you say it's like mother of all vinegars. It sounds like, yeah, vinegar mother. What factors affect besides speed and appearance of the mother's formation. By the way, I saw on a video, and this is my new thing. This is amazing, for those of you that aren't allowed to curse, like, let's say you're around small children or in a place, this guy had an explosion happen right next to him in a video, you
+
+[25:57] know, the kind of videos I watch, and he goes, mother, father. I was like, genius, how have I not thought of that before? Have you used that before, guys? I've used it a couple times. Mother, father. So like I can use that in front of the kids, which is genius anyway. I don't know what maybe. Oh yeah, vinegar mother. Anyway, uh, wine type, vinegar type, vinegar starter, light, heat, cetera. in particular. Will a mother be able to form in a small glass vial? Harold? Small glass vial isn't the ideal environment because
+
+[26:31] vinegar mothers develop at the at the vinegar air interface. And if there isn't a lot of space up there, if there isn't a lot of surface area,
+
+[26:41] it's going to take a lot longer. So I would suggest a broader necked vessel of some kind. Also, temperature is pretty important because vinegar,
+
+[26:53] acetabacteria, kind of enjoy a moderate temperature, not too cool, not too warm, like 20 Celsius, 70 or
+
+[27:02] so, Fahrenheit. So if you can keep it in a place like that. That helps. And you want a cheesecloth at top of it so that you don't get the vinegar, excuse me, vinegar
+
+[27:14] flies, and what else? You gotta get the alcohol content right. Yep. Yep. Yep. Uh, man, I would, uh, something I didn't get a chance to look into, but my bet is
+
+[27:26] that uh, white wine or something like that would be, would work faster than red because, you know, red wine has all those phenolics. They're probably, to some extent, antibacterial, and you might have to overcome that. I'm sure someone's done the study, right? Yeah. Have you ever had the people who like, we had, we made a kombucha and the kombuchas, this one's got a lot of alcohol in it because of the way we made
+
+[27:50] it and you taste it and you're like, you have no alcohol because it's all turned to vinegar. It's like been like acetobactor hit like a baseball bat. You ever had that happen? No. but I can imagine it. Yes. Well, I don't have to imagine it, because it happened to me. I was like, listen, if you like I like vinegar beverages, so I'm cool with it. tasted like, you know, do you like heavy vinegar beers? Gron Cru and all that stuff. Can you pound a whole hyper vinegar one? I like the medium grade, like medium amounts of vinegar, like
+
+[28:17] rodenbach style, but not the straight vinegar suck ones. I don't know. Yeah, it depends on how much. I mean, a little bit. Uh, like a half. Oh, and in the right circumstances is nice. Yeah, not... Stas you? Do you like the drinking vinegars? Like, uh, yeah, like uh, Andy Ricker, he is nice. yeah I like those too. Me too. Yeah, Jack Nice. molecule. right. Jackie. Jacks agree, though. Delicious. Yeah, nice. All right. What about Routh Beer? I'm not a fan Uh, you know, I no, I do like it. Smoke, you like smoky beer? You can drink a whole one? No, but at Samia, in Williamsburg, they did a weird smoked onion. Dude, yes, I had the same one. so good with the smoked beer. Delicious. Incredible. What? 1st of all, why do you need smoke on smoke? What's the smoke on smoke? Did they serve it with a smoked cheese? And then you smoke a cigar with it? Like, oh, like, so much smoke. It worked in the circumstance. You got to try it, Dave. You got to get over there. good. All right. Yeah. Well, you know, Nastasia, a little known fact. Nastasia 8, you ready for this, Jack? E. Nastasia ate in Queens over the weekend. What? Queens. Wow. I was like, 0 my god. She like died or something. Someone said there was an imposter. She's like, yeah, I was overeating in Jackson Heights. I was like, damn. Did a helicopter bring her there? He's like, you know, because this, to get Anastasia to cross the river other than for this show, it's like, I prefer Queens to Brooklyn. I would go to Queens faster. You got to say that closer to the microphone. So everyone here in Brooklyn can hear you. I go to Queen. Queens is fine. Brooklyn hate. Wow. There it is. Wow. I love the molecules, man. Okay, by the way, Harold McGee, I don't think, has heard the Jackie Molecules ringtone. you bust it? Oh, yeah, give me a minute. All right. Tell me when you're ready. And I'll hit with some with some questions here. Pedro, how do you think you pronounced P-A-I-V-A? Portuguese? Pyva? Pyva? Pedro Pyva? Good afternoon, cooking issues team. My name is Pedro from Lisbon. Portugal. I've never been. Id like to go, though. I really like Portuguese cheese. You like Portuguese cheese? I do. And I've never been either. Really? Well, you know, if you're out there, Portugal, if you're out there, let me hear you dance. Harold McGee would like to go to Portugal. One of you needs to reach into your wallet and, like, figure out some sort of conference that you're going to fly him over there so he can hang out and eat all of your delicious thistle
+
+[30:55] rended cheese and pound a whole boatload of port. And if you need some chump named Dave to come along too. Well, you know, hey, that's, you know, all the better. You know what I mean? Jack, Jack, the bartender, you like some port, right? I certainly do. we should start putting it in some cocktails. Well, D got the white, the white port. Did any of that work? We're still working on it. getting there. Yeah. Carbo application is looking good. Yeah, carb application. We have a gin and tonic question later if we get to it. So anyway, okay. In fact, it's this one. And I would like to submit a question about gin and tonic. Here we go. You ready? Jack of the bar, you will also win on this one since you do this every dang day. Well, except for the past week when you were Tales of Cocktail. Gin is now a big trend in Portugal, and it is really easy to buy a decent gin and a decent tonic. Most people claim to know how to serve the best GNT and that for each gin there is a perfect serve. Hmm. Well, that's a very, that's kind of a, it's more the Spanish trend, right? The big goblet style. Do you like the big goblet style? I'm not a huge gin and tonic drinker, but I mean, I enjoy pretty much any
+
+[32:05] GNT if I'm just sipping on it casually. I never casually, I never, I never casually sipping. However, in the YouTube clip, the gin and tonic Dave Arnold's cocktail University, the gin served is totally different from the one served in the other side of the Atlantic, starting in the glass. No one uses flutes. Ours are closer to a small fish tank for a goldfish. Yeah, I know it. I don't understand that It's because carbonation must not be as important over there. Normally we 1st put and swirl the ice in a glass to cool it, then we flavor it with botanics, junipers, zest of orange, lemon, or even strawberries, then pour the
+
+[32:37] gin and finally the tonic carefully to keep the gas of the tonic, which you can't if there's ice in a big fish bowl.
+
+[32:42] Let me tell you something about, let me tell you a little something about bubbles, my friend. Like the vast majority of bubbles are lost at the surface of the glass, right?
+
+[32:51] At the surface. So what a flute does for you. It actually doesn't do a good job of presenting the volatiles to your nose, which is why real champagne freaks, like our good friend
+
+[33:02] Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, prefer to drink their shampizzle out of a white wine glass. I right? Yeah, because the aroma is better, and in fact, a lot of people, a lot of Conyacenti, like their champagnes,
+
+[33:14] uh, too warm for my taste and wide open because they actually want to dumb the bubbles down because it lets them taste the wine more.
+
+[33:20] What about you? For me, it depends a lot on the champagne. I just had this wonderful experience of a 25-year-old
+
+[33:27] Vauve Cliquot served from a humongous bottle. It had no bubbles left whatsoever, but it was delicious and like no other champagne I'd ever had. But if it's a, you know, a young one and really bubbly and really sparkly. Um, I actually like flutes. I mean, because you can enjoy the visual spectacle as well as the taste and smell and spurts. Yeah, yeah. You know, Liger Belair, the champagne scientists from LA, who lives in... How do you why do you pronounce that town that way? As we would say, Reams pass? Uh, but it's, um, uh, he did the studies on the traditional coops, which we use for cocktails and
+
+[34:12] uh, flutes and his, I believe, said maybe we should do white wine glasses is a good compromise.
+
+[34:17] You read those studies? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's Mr. Champagne. What a job. What a job. So let me ask you this. On that 25-year-old, uh, Vouv clique, uh, how is the acidity? It was bracing. It was very high. That's part of what made it so wonderful because otherwise it was kind of caramel y, ready, you know, all those, it was rich, but also had a nice backbone.
+
+[34:42] How far had the, uh, in the absence of massive amounts of CO2, how far had the yeasty
+
+[34:50] Bready gone to oxidized and cherry like? It wasn't cherry like. It was it was just really rich. It was dark too. And when I 1st saw it, I thought, hmm, this doesn't look good, but it was beautiful. Nice. Yeah. Who bought it? The owner of the restaurant, which was celebrating its 25th anniversary, bought it when the restaurant opened for this occasion. Forsight, Jack. Forsyth. Yeah. Okay. Anyways, our closer to a small fish tank for a goldfish. Normally, oh, I already did this. Then pouring the gin and tonic and finally the tonic to keep the gas in the tonic. In the picture attached, which I don't have, is one of the results for the
+
+[35:30] bloom gin. The question is, is it okay to serve it as we do or are we missing something important? Thank you for your time and thank you for the great program, Pedro. As you see, um, uh, as you see it, what should be the 1st steps into the
+
+[35:43] sous vide world? Do you recommend an emerge, any immersion circulator in particular for CV'd? And as a home cook, what should I pay attention to? Uh, look, they're all, they're all gonna work. I'm not sure about in Portugal, like, what the, like, which ones are good for, for Europe. They're all, they're all, they're all gonna work. Just get one that, you know, you can afford that you're going to be happy with. I like the professional ones, but those are still like 800 bucks, but to me,
+
+[36:09] like I know I can beat on them pretty hard, but I've had experience with all the lesser priced ones as
+
+[36:12] well, and they're all going to work for you. There's so much good stuff out there on the internet. I would go to like chef steps, you know, one of those places. I have the rudiments of a low temperature cooking primer on cooking issues, which is still available. Unfortunately, apparently you can't buy Cialis on our blog anymore. Paul finally got rid of the Cialis ads. By the way, we never made any money off of that. It was just, I don't know how they got hijacked. But just go there. Now, as to the question is, are you doing anything wrong making your gin and tonics this way?
+
+[36:40] Well, uh, Oh, no. I mean, if you like them, then you like them. Like, uh, and and it's good. I mean, like, I mean, there are certain things that are an abomination, right? So, like, if you were like, what I really want to do is take PepsiCola, which my wife saw someone do this in Shanghai once, if you want to take PepsiCola and mix it with Petrus, regardless of whether the Petrus is fake,
+
+[37:05] Petrus or real Petrus, like, if you want to take even something that might pass as Petrus, right? So, you know, maybe it's like, you know, you know, some sort of
+
+[37:14] closer, like related, you know, wine. Yeah, that's a mistake. You know, that's just, you're making an error there. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, I would say even, frankly, like, uh, alternating between your glass of Pepsi and Petrus is a horrible mistake.
+
+[37:33] Uh, you know, because the phosphoric acid is not going to play nicely with the wine and the flavors of the polar are going to ride right over
+
+[37:39] it and then it's just not, no, no. Well, I would practice 1st if you're going to do that with some yellow tail, right, Stas? and Yellowtail and Pepsi, fine. See whether you can get a decent Yellowtail and Pepsi. And then if you have a billionaire come, then sure, dump the petrus in, just don't let me see you. With a gin and tonic, it's a little bit different because the flavors you're going to be working with are all going to be good. I tend to want the purest essence of a gin and tonic possible, which means it's
+
+[38:05] like, I'm going to start with a gin that I like, tanqueray. And I'm gonna use only quinine, sulfate, and sugar, and lime juice that, you know, we clarify, because I'm looking for a particular thing. A highly carbonated, extremely crisp, extremely dry, pure gin and tonic with a bunch of
+
+[38:22] no extraneous crap. That's what I'm interested in. Does that make me right? Yes. No, I'm kidding. No, it just, it's, you know, that's the way I want to do it. That's the goal I've set for myself. But, you know, we don't all have to have that goal, right? There's honor in lightly carbonated fish bowls. Actually, I have to say that unless there's so much ice, like any drink that's handed to you, with the exception of an
+
+[38:47] old-fashioned, and even in that case, because you can drink an old-fashioned quickly, if you so desire, like any drink, uh, should be small enough
+
+[38:55] that, uh, it can be consumed by whoever's consuming it in, uh, under 5 to 10 minutes. I mean, really under 2 minutes, really, like right away. But in other words, like, I've, like, if the average consumer is taking much longer than like 10 or 15 minutes, the drink is sitting there dying. I don't care what kind of drink it is. It's dying. If it's a shake and drink, it's warming up too much. If it's a 3rd drink, it's warming up too much. It's a stir drink on a rock, it's diluting too much, if it's God forbid, you know, a tall drink in a bunch of ice, it's just turned
+
+[39:25] into a watery mess. Um, You know, if I could change the way the drinking world works in general, and it is going this way in London and other places, it would be smaller drinks,
+
+[39:34] drunk more quickly. Yeah? Yeah. Okay, let me see. You know, stars, we might actually make it through the question say. Can you believe that? Can you believe that? Uh, Steve. Actually, we won't. We not gonna make it. All right. Stephen from Moscow wrote in. Good to speak to you a few months back at the bar because he came to the bar. Uh, no luck finding the Viziga. Remember Ziga? Viziga, the sturgeon spine. You ever use that, Harold? They used to rip the spine out of sturgeons? Right, yeah, for Kulubiak and things like that. No, I've never played with it myself. Hard to get. Nastasia and I went to, what's that? What's the neighborhood? Brighton, right? Brighton Beach, which is like the Russian thing. And she tried to pull her like, but basically they just handed us like a chunk of frozen sturgeon that had like a little bit of spinal
+
+[40:24] cordon. So we didn't really have enough to like rip out the whole spinal cord and do
+
+[40:28] the uh, do this stuff. But I wonder whether there are any other spinal. Do you think there's anything special about a sturgeon's spinal cord? Is it the spinal cord itself? I think it is. Anything special about a sturgeon spiral cord that you know of? No, I mean, uh, it's it's uh, gelatinous. That's really all I know about it. And how fundamentally different is spinal cord material from like brain material, just shorter length axons in the brain? Uh, you know, uh, I should have prepared for this, but my, my recollection from, uh, Chris
+
+[41:03] Constantino in San Francisco used to sell a uh, tuna spine, tuna backbone, that there's the spinal cord itself, which is tissue like the brain.
+
+[41:13] It's, um, you know, nerve cells. But then there's this, um, uh, gelatinous cartilaginous material, which is sort of the shock absorber that prevents the uh, nervous tissue from
+
+[41:28] suffering. And I think it's that shock tissue that you actually... Yeah, I used to serve that. I love that stuff. It's good. It's like kind of like real, it needs to be really fresh. Where it's like super kind of clean and seawatery. But that's not what the Vaziga is, though. I think the Vaziga is the actual chord, no? You think the Vaziga is the stuff? because the Vaziga comes in a long strip. Right, right. Yeah, no, that's that's my sense. But, but, how did you like, what did Chris do to it, to the, to the, just gave it to you and you kind of broke
+
+[42:01] it open yourself and... Oh, I think we had that together. But he roasted the outside of it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've only ever served it raw. Like, so we would take one spine, clean off the vertebrae, so it was
+
+[42:13] like, like, like, you know, wiped clean, like you put it in one of those, like, flesh eating beetle containers. You know what I'm talking about. And then, uh, I didn't do that though. Please, I don't want to hear about it. And then we scooped fresh ones that were like off these kind of the gross meaty carcasses and then put them
+
+[42:29] on like they were fresh. Remember we did that? did that for Star chefs. Remember that stuff? You know, Chris roasted it and then kind of sprinkled all kinds of, uh, well, pepper and then various other herbs and spices on
+
+[42:41] it. So it was really, really flavorful. Delicious. I remember that. Okay. So he was not able to find it. And he says it's effectively unavailable in its dry form and extremely difficult to get fresh, especially because how do you
+
+[42:54] always, how do you pronounce? You know, the critical endangered species at CTs? Is that how you pronounce it? C-I-T-E-S. Anyway, you have to, you know, you don't want to slaughter the last sturgeon. I don't think Probably not. Here's my question regarding temperature maintenance. We'll be spending some time this summer with an Italian style, but it's not. It going to be in Moscow, not in Italy, so it can only be Italian style. What do you think about Italian style things? She gave you, you can't see what she gave you up on Italian style. She likes Italian. You don't like Italians. you like Italy. You like Italy, but not Italians, right? Another one of the things, right up there with biscuits. Even though whatever, even though whatever, I don't know, I'm not going to get into it. Uh, Italian style outdoor brick barbecue, uh, something like the picture attached, which
+
+[43:40] unfortunately I don't have. Oh, it's going to be in Sardinia. He's going to be in Sardinia. Have you ever been? You been? No. You been? Want to go. I'd like to go. Yeah. By tradition, I will need to, by tradition. I like this is a good tradition. I will need to roast a suckling pig or half for sure, among many other things. Any thoughts on the cook for a long cook, how best to regulate temperature? We'll be in New York City next week. Hope to see you at the bar, but I missed it. Regards, Steven. So the classic one that can be roasted whole is the is the Cochinillo
+
+[44:11] style, but they're minuscule pigs. Like, how much of those things weigh? You ever have one of those? I've never done one myself, but yeah, they're, you know, a few pounds. Delicious. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, dude, whether you want to do the, like, the super slow roast on it. it going to be hard to regulate if you don't do it a lot. You know what I mean? It's one of those things where you need to do it a lot. Temperature regulation in one of those big ovens is all about
+
+[44:39] just, you want to build the temperature up over the course of hours and hours and hours, and then wait for it to get down to a point that you're going to be okay, throw it
+
+[44:49] in, and then let it ride down on something like that. You're not going to refire. If it's a big retained heat masonry oven. You're not going to refire during the roast because you'll nuke off the outside of the skin. I would even, I would even maybe protect the pig for the 1st part of the thing in it with something that's going to, you know, like leaves or some
+
+[45:06] crap, um, almost like you were burying it in the ground. All those retained heat things. Start, you want to start it at like kind of like the maximum and then let it ride down. Would you agree? Yes. Yeah. you're not going to be maintaining temperature in any active sense inside of a, inside of a retained heat masonry oven. Would you would you think so, Harold? Yeah, and it's difficult if you're not familiar with it, you know, to know how it's going to behave. Yeah, I would do a couple firings 1st and like kind of see how it does. But here's another solution. What you can do is you can, if you can muster it, because you can do it in like trash bags, you could do the whole thing,
+
+[45:40] low temp, right? And then just throw it in a flaming hot one to crisp up the skin. And it'll be as delicious as it can be. Those of you who have heard me rant before know that I am somewhat suspicious of whole hog or any whole animal cookery because
+
+[45:57] there, it is not possible to cook the tenderloin of a
+
+[46:06] pig. I don't leave it there. No, I'm kidding. It's not possible to cook the tenderloin of a pig and have it not be a nasty, either pasty or
+
+[46:14] dry. either going to be pasty, nasty, or dry, nasty, and has the rest of the pig cooked properly. And so the solution to that, unless the pig's extraordinarily young and then it bathes itself in its own kind of fat as it
+
+[46:27] goes and then whatever, because it also can cook really quickly. But, you know, barring that, uh, you know, what the, what you have to do is hack up that dry meat and mix it with the good meat so that that's what the barbecue
+
+[46:38] uh, guys, like, what's his name? Ed, why? why is his name out of my head? The big hole hog guy down. Ed Mitchell, Ed Mitchell. Uh, he's like, yeah, but I like the little dry chunk, which is like, why, why, why, why? Why? Why? Why? What you should do is rip all of the stuff out and cook it the way it wants to be cooked and then somehow reassemble it into a pig and crisp up the skin. Now that would be like, that would be amazing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Alright, Dave. Oh my god. We got we do have a bonus segment coming up. All right. well, okay. Peggy from Australia, we got within one question. Peggy, you are the one that we have left. So I'm going to get you and your circulator questions. Next week on the cooking issues. However, before we sign out and I thank Jack
+
+[47:19] Shram from the bar, from Booker and Dax. Nastasia, Jackie molecule. you didn't pay Jackie molecules. Oh yeah, I can do that real, real, real quick. All right, let's see. Who else do you have to think? But no, I'm going to say... There it is. All right. Uh, so, uh, we pre-recorded an extra 15 minutes of cooking issues, it got to some of the other questions. So if you didn't hear your question and your name's not Peggy, then it means that we don't know about it. We got them also stay tuned after this for another 15 minutes of cooking issues. Bones, cooking machines. And welcome back to the extended 15 minutes or so of cooking issues because we just knew we'd need to spend more time with Harold McGee. Harold, how you doing? Well, thanks. Great to be here. Yeah, yeah. In actuality, I don't want to lie to you. We're taping this before the initial thing. we're just starting now, but we figured we'd tack it on at the end. So I'm going to pretend that Nastasia had to leave for a minute, even though she actually hasn't arrived yet. Yeah, and Jack, is this the 1st time I've ever been in the studio early? Has this ever happened before? 100%, yes. All right. So I got some questions in that I'd like to get to. Here's one that I think Harold will particularly like. She's done a lot of work in it. Tyler Simons wrote in. Dear Dave Nastasia, and Jackie Molecules, and Harold in a question mark, because he sent it in back when I said there was only a 50% chance of Harold McGee.
+
+[48:50] Are there any hard and fast rules for making caramel candies? I'm interested in making dairy-free caramels, and I'm curious if there is simply a fat sugar ratio that is required or something more complicated is going on. I. e.g. protein stabilized emulsion. How could I make something like an almond milk caramel? Thanks so much. Tyler Simmons from UC Davis. P S, you've spoiled me. I can't seem to find any other podcasts that are both as entertaining and educational as yours. Keep up the good work. Well, thanks, thanks for the kind words, and I know the Herald is done. I don't know if you've done with this kind of caramel. You've done with straight sugar caramelization. You done a lot of work. You ever work with this kind of stuff? I have not. I mean, I have worked with standard caramel
+
+[49:27] candies, and with this kind of thing, it seems to me that what you do is you go into the kitchen and you give it a shot and you see what happens and you try to adapt.
+
+[49:36] So I imagine it would behave very much like an ordinary milk emulsion or dairy emulsion, but I'm not
+
+[49:43] sure. Right. Well, except for, I mean, again, like, somehow I didn't read it thoroughly enough because I was rushing in and I thought we were dealing with more of a straight sugar thing. I don't know, yeah, sometimes it happens to you. Like you read something, you're like, I got it. you know, McGee's going to get it. I didn't read it. was kind of a different kind of candy altogether. My one, um, my one thing is, uh, you know,
+
+[50:05] that, casing, like, the way it Browns, the way it undergoes kind of, uh, you know, uh, Browning reaction is, I don't know if you're going to get the same effect.
+
+[50:17] Oh, I bet you won't. And in fact, probably the protein content of the almond milk is lower than ordinary
+
+[50:25] milk. I mean, that would be my guess anyway. But that's why you play with it. And if it doesn't work using a standard recipe, well, maybe you start by reducing the almond milk or something like that to get things
+
+[50:38] going and yeah. Yeah, and I would presume it's, well, it depends on what you use, but I presume it's also higher fat, right? And regular milk? But not with California, almonds, boom, boom. Take that low fat California almonds. Um, they're not low fat, but they're low word in fat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're, they're, yeah, we need to be growing better varieties in California. Yeah, why is that? They started growing and he's like, why is it that the standard California ominous incredibly low, comparatively low fat
+
+[51:06] almond? I don't know the history of that, except that, you know, it's the usual sort of thing, probably, that
+
+[51:12] breeders are looking for disease resistance and yield and not so much flavor. I think that's probably it. Yeah, yeah, simple as that, huh? Here's another one for you. We talked a little bit about yesterday night. Andrew writes in about chickpeas. I love the show. I'm one of those people who went and listened to the entire back catalog after discovering
+
+[51:31] it that hurts. That's so much. Can you imagine listening to all this? Despite your warnings along the way that this was crazy. I have 2 questions regarding rehydrating dried legumes. Now that I have an electric pressure cooker, yes, I know they're not ideal, but no regrets after picking one up for cheap on Craigslist. You ever use the electric ones? No, I haven't. What kind of pressure do you have? Uh, not that old Coon Raikon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they were. I love them. I have mine. In fact, I've welded the handle back onto mine after the handle smashed off and, you know, I've lost the parts at the top. I've replaced all the gaskets on it, and it still works. Anyway. Okay. First, I'm quite happy with my go-to hummus recipe, but I find the texture to be off when I'm using my rehydrated chickpeas instead of using canned.
+
+[52:18] I've tried a range of cook chimes, but they transition directly from crunchy with that raw flavor to immediately paste the overdone texture that's still apparent after going into the food processor.
+
+[52:27] I assume commercial canneries rehydrate them too, so I'm wondering what I'm missing. An ancient bag of beans, perhaps, is for the question, beans. Does the water need some kind of additive like calcium in order to retain some texture? Uh, I'd stay away from that. Like, hardening that, like, there's been a bunch of studies, La, La, La, La, Harrogant to it, but there's been a bunch of studies on way back in the day, like in the early 1900s, I think, where people were noticing that the canned beans had very different qualities on different parts of the country based on the water that was available in the canning thing, and they would run through, and they did a whole series of studies on, uh, the 2 of you need to worry about are calcium, magnesium, calcium, magnesium, like, you know, parts per 1000, uh,
+
+[53:08] versus uh, hardness in the beans. you know, and then you'd get a situation where they're uniformly too hard and then there's the intermediate zone where some, that presumably are less well soaked or harder than other. anyway, whatever. Let me finish the question. yet another, yet another Dave going off on a tangent. Okay. I assume commercial canneries rehydrate them too. That is correct. They do. So I wonder what I am missing. Ancient bag of beans, does the water need some kind of additive like calcium? Any thoughts on how to recreate canned chickpeas or other beans at
+
+[53:42] home? Second, when it comes to preparation without the gaseous consequences. And this is why I thought McGee would be ideal on this because for those of you, I'm not going to make him say the story again, unless he would like to, in which case he's welcome to, but the entire on food and cooking phenomenon that has, you know, helped fuel so many of us in
+
+[54:03] our push towards thinking more scientifically about the problems of deliciousness, was fueled by the problem of farting with beans. True? It was, it was indeed. And you can say as much of that about as you want. But anyway, when it comes to preparation without the gaseous consequences, the internet is filled with anecdotal advice. What's a good evidence-based method to reduce this particular side effect? I'm mainly interested in black beans, black eyed peas, and split peas, if it makes a difference. Thank you so much, and I hope this doesn't contribute too much to more ketchup shows. Well, in fact, we're handling it in a ketchup segment. So there you have it. Andrew. So what do you think? Ah, so where to begin? Um, maybe with uh, I'm a little confused about his question because he said he's bothered by a
+
+[54:46] pasty mealy texture and chickpeas. But then he's also talking about maybe adding calcium for texture when it sounds as though what he actually wants is an absence of texture.
+
+[54:58] Well, you know, my impression is that what's happening is that some, some maybe have gone over while others are still hard, so maybe he's thinking the calcium's going to make them equally, but what's just going to make you equally shafted. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Go the opposite direction if you had to. Yeah, yeah. And then a hummus, who cares anyway? You going to blend the hell out of it. The hard part, listen, I'm going to let Harold, you know, do this, but what I'm saying is the hard part is being able to make a decent chickpea that you just eat.
+
+[55:26] And if you can make a decent chickpea that you just eat and you like the texture of it when you're eating it, then it's going to make a good hummus. Yeah. Right? Go ahead, right? So there is the ancient being phenomenon, if beans of any kind sit around for too
+
+[55:44] long, especially a too high, a humidity, they end up with this
+
+[55:49] hard-to-cook quality that you just really can't get around. So you want to start with fresh beans as fresh as possible. Well, baking soda, fix it or no, not even. Uh, I don't think so. No. It's just the cell walls are kind of cemented together much more permanently than they would be
+
+[56:06] otherwise. So my, like my grandpa just got more and more ornery as he got away. That's right Warnery beans. So start with as fresh beans as possible. and then soak them, pre-soak them. And then cook them long enough to make them soft. I mean, that's kind of what it comes down to. Check them every once in a while, see where you're getting to the point where the texture is close to the
+
+[56:33] eatable that you just described and then go from there. I mean, I think one of the problems, if he's doing it in a pressure cooker. First of all, like, look, especially if you have beans of varying ages, right? But they haven't gone all the way to ornery being syndrome, uh, the kind of longer you can let them soak. the better off you are because the more they will all equilibrate to an equal
+
+[56:58] pre-cook moisture, right? The harder you force water into a bean or a chickpea that hasn't hydrated, you know, been soaked properly, the more you're
+
+[57:09] going to get an overcooked outside and undercooked inside. Right? I mean, wouldn't you say you also want to like avoid violent boiling? Yes, yes. Um, although if you're going to end up uh, pureing it anyway, then maybe that's not such a big deal. But, uh, yeah, it's the, we generally don't realize it, but the step that takes the longest, the process that takes the longest in the cooking of beans isn't heating them
+
+[57:40] up. It's getting the water from the outside to the inside. And so if you take care of that ahead of time. then you eliminate all kinds of problems, including textural problems, because that soaking will leach out some of
+
+[57:53] the ions that are holding those cell walls together. What are your thoughts on the warm water pre-soak? Um, it's quicker. Um, what? less gentle on the on the being coach. It doesn't matter on a chickpea though. Like on some beans that lose their coats. Like, don't you find that, because they rehydrate so much faster that you get that wrinkly phenomenon and they, uh... Yeah, that's true. They expand faster than the insides do, and so you end up with that with that wrinkling, which pulls it away from the surface of the bean and causes
+
+[58:29] it then later to fall off or not to look as nice. Right. He's also cooking in a pressure cooker. And so one of the things, oh, by the way, I mean, I assume everyone knows this, but if you want your beans to cook, don't add acid to them at all until they're soft,
+
+[58:41] right? Okay. Um, and what about salt in the soak? Uh, salt in the soak in my experience and from my looking at the literature, it slows the hydration,
+
+[58:53] uh, but once it's hydrated, the cooking actually goes much
+
+[58:58] quicker because the sodium ions displace calcium in the structure and that helps loosen things up.
+
+[59:05] So that could perhaps make it more even? Yeah, yeah. But you have to allow more time because if there's salt in the in the water, then it's going to take a lot longer to penetrate into the bean itself. Now, he says he's using a pressure cooker. One thing I would be wary of with a pressure cooker is, well, a couple things. If you don't know whether it's done, you should wait for it to come down naturally. If you do a
+
+[59:31] flash, a flash off on the pressure cooker, it really does. It's the equivalent of uniformly boiling throughout the liquid, including the liquid that's inside of the cheap chickpeas. And so I think you're going to get kind of blast apart on the on the on the thing. But that, so you have to let it come down naturally and then bring it back up. So it can, it can take more time that way, but, you know, after a couple of batches, you should be able to dial in in your time.
+
+[59:58] But the longer you let it soak, um, the less I think you're going to have batch to batch variants unless you get a really set of
+
+[1:00:03] uh, old, um, Ornery beans. There was a study that I forget, you were there and it was the year we were at Madrid fusing together was like 05 or something like this, 06, 05, 06, something like
+
+[1:00:18] this. And, um, 06, like January of 06. think so, yeah. But you were quite sick at the time. everyone was sick. Everyone had gotten food poisoned or some sort of like stomach
+
+[1:00:28] virus, like all these famous chefs had gotten like this
+
+[1:00:31] horrible, like, you know, virus or food poisoning. Like Thomas Keller was stumbling around on stage, you know? It's kind of a nightmare. Um, but since I wasn't at the time invited to any of the fancy stuff, I did not catch any dread diseases. And so I was able to wander
+
+[1:00:46] around at, you know, at will. But I remember one of the presenters was a Spanish chef, and I looked for the paper in advances, but I couldn't find a Spanish chef who had done some research at a Spanish university about chickpeas and various temperature
+
+[1:01:00] regimes both in cooking and in soaking and the textual differences. you remember that? No, no. I mean, I couldn't find it. I tried to find it, but you know, that, you know, there was a great phenomenon back then in
+
+[1:01:11] that period of time, especially in Europe. Actually, only in Europe. I mean, recently in the US, like there's been some kind of collaborations like that. But there were just all these, uh, uh, institutions who were like, yeah, we'll let, you know, real scientists talk to chefs and answer actual
+
+[1:01:28] evidence-based kind of stuff, you know? Does that really happen anymore? Oh, yeah, a lot of, in fact, I think a lot, there's a lot more these days than back then. Well, here. Yeah, they just never happened before. I think in Europe as well. Those were back then it was something that, you know, was kind of strange to everybody. First of all, that chefs would be getting together in large numbers and sharing their recipes, sharing their new
+
+[1:01:55] ideas rather than hoarding them, and then collaborating with people who had more technical knowledge than they did to figure things out.
+
+[1:02:03] But that's there's a lot of that everywhere now. I mean, the classic one in the English speaking world that you we always used to talk about in classes was the Heston one. You want to talk about that for a sec? Uh, sure. Heston has collaborated with people at half dozen different universities in the UK. The collaboration that I think makes the most difference to most cooks is the one he did with Donald Machrum at
+
+[1:02:32] Reading University. This is in the like 2005, 2006, where Heston was preparing tomatoes in the kitchen, in the standard classical French way of peeling the tomatoes, scooping out the seeds, and then chopping the wall of the tomato for some beautiful sort of
+
+[1:02:54] garnish. And he was popping bits of tomato in his mouth as he was doing this, and noticed that the seeds seemed to have way more flavor than the rest of the tomato. And so he called up his friend Matrum at
+
+[1:03:08] Redding and asked him, was it true that there was more, he thought, umami and acidity in
+
+[1:03:15] the jelly around the seeds. And Machrum looked at the literature, couldn't find anyone had done a study of
+
+[1:03:22] this, and so he and Heston collaborated on a study. And they found that not only was there a difference in the concentration of these
+
+[1:03:30] things in and around the seeds, but that it was a huge difference. It was like 3 or 3 or 4 fold difference in glutamate and organic acids and so on.
+
+[1:03:43] So the intensity of flavor in a tomato comes from the stuff
+
+[1:03:46] that, in many cuisines, you just kind of toss out or put in a stock or something like
+
+[1:03:51] that, don't even make use of. Specifically the French. He used to make fun of it. Well, I would force you to make fun of the French when we were at the French culinary city when they're talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of fun too, to remember back in the day when Ferran Adria was coming up with a new dish every 6 hours. A couple of them were actually based on taking scooping the seeds out of the inside of a tomato and just serving them all by
+
+[1:04:15] themselves. And they were delicious. And then selling the outside to the French? For using some sort of kunkat. Is that the word? Uh, we... Hey, before I go into this, I'll ask whether you like have any, do you even know anything about thermophilic bacteria and their possible survival inside of the sous vide bags? Have you heard anything about this? Uh, no. No. I have a, I had someone a while ago who wrote in about their bags inflating after a fairly long period of time when it should have
+
+[1:04:44] already, um, everything should have been killed. And I ascribed it to there was sauce on the inside of the bag that didn't make it to temperature in time, but then he's like, well, why did it blow up after a long period? I don't know. I wonder whether there's ever been a case of like a thermophilic thing surviving and causing gas inside of a bag. Well, how long after? I mean, hours after being put into the bath. Like, I think on like day, like on day two. Uh-huh. Well, I mean, there are spores that survive temperatures, like sous vide temperatures and are actually activated by temperatures like that. Well, in other words, while the bag was still cooking, it blew
+
+[1:05:26] up. While it was cooking, like a day later. Like 24 hours, imagine 24 hours into the cook process. The bag just inflates. This is a, you know, someone named Michael have written this, but I still, every once in a while, I think about it. And I can't figure it out because air in bones or veg will come out in the 1st couple of hours after it heats up. Usually, you know, within 5 or 6 hours, if you have a pocket on the inside that is being too protected from the
+
+[1:05:54] heat, such that you can generate stuff, then that'll create gas, that gas pocket will stay at a temperature that doesn't kill the
+
+[1:05:59] bacteria because it'll be like, you know, five, 6 degrees below. It'll stay around 50, you'll incubate bacteria, and you'll go. But not like 24 hours later. Something weird. Something weird is going on. All right. So listen. like right in a minute, we're going to end our extended, but I have one more that I think would be good to end on.
+
+[1:06:19] And you know, if you don't want to talk, are you willing to talk about your, you're looking into the burnt almond and
+
+[1:06:26] cyanide or you're not willing to talk about it? Sure. Right. So we'll do this real quick, because I think this is a hyper interesting story. And one that just shows how badass Harold McGee is about thinking about stuff that we have taken for granted for not just our lives, but for the lives of everyone back to our
+
+[1:06:41] great grandparents. Caleb Sexton wrote in because he sent us those apricots. You know the super high bricks apricots they have now in California? No. Yeah, I forget the name of it. I'll get it for you. like mega hype, like 2020s, high 20s bricks on the fresh fruit. What kind of acidity? Not enough acidity in my in my estimation. However, if you just, I, what I did was I sprinkled some acid on them and they were like, what? you know but you know how I am. Anyways, but Stas liked them low acidity. that's not the point. So he said, I have these pits now, and I want to use them. The apricot kernels. And he said, should I be worried about amygdalin? And then he said, well, you know, my impression is that the sweeter the, I don't know whether he meant the sweeter the apricots or the sweeter the kernels themselves, the less a megdalen is
+
+[1:07:23] there and the less kind of worry. And it immediately made me think, well, you'll have an answer for that because we've talked about this before, but that also you might talk about your recent investigations into the smell of cyanide.
+
+[1:07:34] Right. So the standard description of the smell of cyanide is like bitter almonds, which, uh,
+
+[1:07:41] like, almond extract, uh, which, uh, just seems weird because if you look at the structure of hydrogen cyanide, HCN, that's all there is to
+
+[1:07:51] it. And then you look at the aroma compound that gives us the smell of bitter almonds, which is benzaldehyde, which is a carbon 6 carbon
+
+[1:08:01] ring, they're just so different. How can they end up giving you the same sensory perception? I was just curious. I thought it was odd. And so I went hunting in the literature, and it turns out that there's really not that good
+
+[1:08:18] a an evidentiary trail to indicate that that's the case, that in fact, they do smell the same. And there are several sources. One of them in perfumery, one a forensics text from around the turn of the century, which was talking about how can
+
+[1:08:37] you, if there's a suicide. How can you tell whether the person died? If it's by cyanide, then you would get this telltale odor, except that this guy
+
+[1:08:48] says, that's the standard explanation and what you're looking for, but in
+
+[1:08:54] fact, in his experience, Sinai doesn't leave that kind of smell.
+
+[1:08:59] And this perfumist says that the smell of cyanide is not the same as
+
+[1:09:05] benzaldehyde. So I know a couple of scientists who have used it, cyanide as a reagent in their research, and I want to get to them and
+
+[1:09:18] see either whether they can give me their feeling about this.
+
+[1:09:24] And uh, whether maybe I might take a sniff, a carefully controlled sniff, Wow. Wow, with some they can counteract it, right? Or no, if they get you right away. Uh, that's a good question. I should probably check that out before I... I would definitely check that because
+
+[1:09:42] someday we would love to have you back on cooking issues. So I don't want to read in the, I don't want to read in the papers that you, you know, that the curious cook was killed by his curiosity.
+
+[1:09:52] That would not be that would not be pleasant. And that has been our extended 15 minutes of cooking issues with Harold McGee. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:10:12] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member. Visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Fairway Market like no other market. A New York City institution that sells the best local, national, and international artisan foods for prices that can't be beat. For more information, visit fairwaymarket.com. I'm Chris Kuzmi. And I'm Mary Isaed. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:33] Hello and welcome to Cooking Nations. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, and she's coming to you live, late, but live on Tuesday. The Heritage Redo Network, and Roberta's Peachwia, and where is it? Where is Roberta's Pizzeria? Where? I think it's Midtown, New York City, right? Wow, only. Sounds like Bush week. It's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joland, as usual, Nastasia. The hammer lopez freshman from Chicago. How was it? Good. Oh, you gotta give me tips. I'm going Chicago in a few weeks. All right, right. All right. Jack in the Engineering booth. Just a reminder there. I'm sure she ate well. Did you eat well? No. Because you were with your sister and you were avoiding any food style people. Yeah. Yeah. Last time I was eating out in Chicago. 2 times ago, I saw a real dillweed in a Lamborghini who didn't know how to drive
+
+[1:26] it, and he was grinding his gears while he was trying to parallel park in front of a veck. Oh man. Weak. Don't buy a Lamborghini if you can't drive. Oh, you know what? This weekend, she's going to Lollapalooza, which is in Chicago every year, and they have competing, not competing, but they have bands playing at the same time. So Paul McCartney's a headliner and they have somebody playing at the same time as him, which I'm like, why would you do that? Then they have Sam Smith playing at the same time as
+
+[1:49] Metallica, and she's like, I'm going to see Sam Smith. Whoa. Speaking of Metallica. By the way, so he can so he can chime in. Obviously. Did I already say Jackson in the engineering booth? We've got Paul Adams. The, he's the overlord of popular science is web presence. Is that true? No. Not? Something like that. Yeah. Overlord is not the right title. Baron. Baron. You got to, is Baron, what's higher? Baron's higher than Earl, right? Duke is highest. Forgotten. He goes Duke then King. Pretty sure. Well, Duke Prince King. Anyway, uh, what are you talking? Metallica. Would you see Metallica over Sam Smith? Dude, Metallica, they hate their fans, right? I mean, they're like, aren't they the anti-piracy? we're we're so we're so rebel, but don't download our songs. Plus, I saw, speaking of D-bags and cars, I saw, like, a 30-year-old backward baseball cat, like, khaki short wearing dude blasting Metallica out of his Ferrari, his brand new Ferrari in Connecticut.
+
+[2:57] And uh, he didn't turn the radio down when he's pumping gas. What do you guys think about that? not good. that's not good. It's not good. I mean, I'm okay with Metallica, right? But I'm saying like, what if he's like next to someone that hates that stuff? Try this leaf. That's what it is. Oh, what? We don't know. It's in the salad. How am I gonna know? I hate it. Paul likes it. I like his Paul. Paul also likes Surstraming. I know, so what is it? Why does me chewing peoples? Oh yeah, I know that flavor. That's, um, it's it's not, but it's very similar to, um, this
+
+[3:33] Mexican, uh, herb. Like popolo almost. I think it is popcorn. Really? I'll go look at the menu. It's very, there's a couple of herbs from Mexico and a couple of other ones that have that distinct taste. It tastes a little bit not like a, it tastes like part, it's got a burnt transformer taste. like a phenolic kind of note. And so I always it hits me in my head. I think it's, I think it's Pablo, but there's also, uh, uh, Ojasanta tastes a little bit like that, but with more of a
+
+[4:01] saffrol kind of a note, but uh, anyway, that's what I think it is. Uh... Just Popolo. I just grabbed the pen. Oh, what's up? What's up with the dropping knowledge? Nice job. That's why you keep me here on the show. That's right. I have a caller on the line. Okay, caller. you were on the air Yeah, hi, Dave. This is Patrick calling from Brooklyn. How are you? Doing all right. So I got 2 questions. First question is really quick. Is that I'm reading your old post about foraging in the
+
+[4:28] South Bay. And you mentioned you'll Gibbons and a book specifically about that. I have stocking the blue eyed scallop, and I was wondering, are you referring to another one besides
+
+[4:40] that or is that the one? Yeah, no. Somewhere I have the scans. Stalking the blue eyes scallop is an obvious classic. Uh, which I think that one came after stalking. No, it was a scallop 1st and then asparagus. Those are his 2 classic works, right? I think it's asparagus. Asparagus is first. Classic, classic stuff. No, in fact, Yul Gibbons, for those of you that don't know, like, you know how there's a foraging movement going on now,
+
+[5:05] people, everyone aware of this? Yes. Yule Gibbons was kind of doing that before anyone kind of like thought it was
+
+[5:12] cool. He was he was kind of, you know, the man at the time. I think some, like, you know, like a real crunchy folks maybe kind of started making fun of him because towards the end of his
+
+[5:21] life, he started doing pitches for grape nut cereal so you can find him doing old grape nut cereal ads. He was also in The King and I, right? No, that was Fuel Brenner. So here's how you tell the difference. Like the one is many parts of a pine tree are edible, Yule Gibbons, and no, I will not let your people go. Yul, uh, Brenner. how you tell them. But they both died of cancer, interestingly. Or not. Well, yeah, but yeah, Yule, unlucky name. Uh, so anywho, um, it turned out he did some, you know, you're familiar with the outward bound program?
+
+[5:54] Yeah. So outward bound is, I guess it's kind of like a Boy Scouty kind of a thing where they take a bunch of kids and they threw them on these islands. So up in the Penobscot Bay up near uh, up near Deer Island there, uh, they would just take kids, like, like grains of sand or marbles and throw them out onto these islands and let them fend for themselves for a couple of days. And Yule Gibbons actually wrote the foraging manual for the
+
+[6:18] outward bound thing in Maine. And I had, I never owned a physical copy of it, but I photographed it. Maybe I could try to put it now. You know, back then it was like, you know, I was using my 4 megapixel digital camera, but, you know, I could try to find it and put them up if you're interested. You know, it's, uh, he has some lines in there, actually, that I'd like to
+
+[6:39] quote. Like, he, uh, he talks about forging wild strawberries. You ever guys have a Forge wild strawberries? Well, yeah, they're tiny, you know what I'm saying? And they're they're delicious, but they're tiny. can't get enough. And Yule Gibbons says in there, he's like, God certainly could have made a better tasting berry, but he certainly never did. But I disagree. I think I find other berries more delicious because to me berries become more delicious in mass quantities. Like what you want is like a face full of berry, in order to get the maximum berry kind of effect. But anyhow, in this, in this little pamphlet, you'll give them talks about, like, you know, picking wild rocket and, like, sandfire
+
+[7:17] and, uh, muscles. Interesting brings up the point that you get sick of muscles really quickly. Have you ever noticed that? Have you ever eaten enough muscles to get sick of them really quickly? Not really. No? Usually one serving. Well, yeah, so like if you're on a beach and literally there are beaches up there that are like constructed of muscles on
+
+[7:34] rock. You know what I mean? It's just like muscle on rock. like so it's either you cut your feet with them or you rip them up and eat them. those are the only 2 choices. And yeah, you get sick of those suckers fast, especially if you don't have anything to put on
+
+[7:44] them but wild rocket, although the rocket is delicious. Anyway, but, um, did that answer your question or did you have a specific question about the Yule Gibbons? Well, no, Dad, I think I'll track it down. I'm going to be on Vinyl Haven, and it might happen in a library or something, but near enough,
+
+[7:57] but it seems to apply to, I mean, in the same bay, but I assume that... Yeah, it's a live. So if you're looking for it, it's, it's pamphlet size, it's, um, it's non-standard. It looks like, uh, it looks like it's folded and stapled, uh, you know, like,
+
+[8:13] um, what do they call, like oak tag, like card, not cardboard. You know what I mean? That like thick paper back. And it's folded and cut so it's longer. You know what's very similar to? Are you familiar with the, what's her name? Mary Thielgard books like, uh, uh, uh,
+
+[8:28] Treefinder, Fernfinder? Trackfinder? No, no. I'm starting with Eul Gibbon. Yeah, yeah. Well, these ones, she's not a forager. She just is like a tree and other kind of ID, which they're awesome little books because they fit in your pocket, but it's kind of that scale. So it's kind of longer than it is. like, it looks almost like a reporter's notebook, but sideways, it's like longer than his wife when you're looking for it. But I'll try to post some pictures of it. You had a, you had a, I'll look for both. All right, cool. You had another question. 2nd question. It's kind of open-ended, but curious to get your thoughts. I'm trying to buy, uh, a stove, whether it's a rain, just, just the, the, a rain stop
+
+[9:09] for an entire uh, range with ovens for a house upstate. immediately getting into the weeds of all sorts of conflicting information about varying
+
+[9:19] products. And just curious your thoughts about what you actually need to buy to cook at home. And all I really want is firepower and reliability. Um, and I don't really care about anything else as long as it's not hideous. But it doesn't seem to be that there's that many products designed for people who just want to cook and have output that aren't just commercial
+
+[9:38] ranges that will, that I don't have the opposite of doing because it would violate my insurance policy. Right, right. Are you, are you, is it propane, gas, electric, what? It'll be propane. Propane? And do you have reliable electric where you are? Are you one of those districts that goes out every 2 seconds? And if you do, do you have a generator? I think it's, it's supposed to be reliable and I have, I have, uh, 200 amp service. Okay. And are you going to get the big old propane tank? Are you going to use one of those weasly 100s? Oh, one of the big ones. Whatever the, whatever it needs, because it's also, it's going to, it's going to run the water heat. There's gonna be a lot of propane about. Oh okay. So you can kind of go ape on it. Because like I have propane in, you know, in my place, but I
+
+[10:21] like always get nervous about using it because if it runs out. I ain't never used my stove. I exclusively use tandor, like the a griddle and like my oven. Those are the 3 cooking things I use up there. But I would go, I would go, if you have propane to like, well, to burn. I would, I would, uh, but you can't get commercial, huh? I don't know who's got the good high output, uh, residential uh, burners because they're all just so weenie compared to um, compared to a real... Well, do you think that there's some, there's some, some products that there's, most of them don't have open burners, but there's some, a couple ones now that
+
+[10:58] offer open burners and are allegedly high, much higher output? My other issue is that the house has ceilings that are actually fairly low. So I'm just wondering at a certain point that I'm going to risk burning off the ceiling with a, it has
+
+[11:13] ignorant about 8 foot ceiling. Are you gonna go, are you have outdoor space here? Yeah, obviously, because you have a big propane tank. I mean, like... What I what I maybe might do in this scenario is, I
+
+[11:25] would, 1st of all, on your oven, I'd go electric, just because they're kind of more accurate, and then if you ever want to do any baking and stuff, you know, and then, you know, and then if you have half gas, half electric, let's say
+
+[11:35] you're going to, then at least you always know you have one. Um, but the, the, I would go electric on the oven
+
+[11:43] and um, for the stove, yeah, I mean, I just get kind of either the most powerful thing you
+
+[11:48] can or consider going induction. Because especially if you're going to be doing like in the summertime, like any heating on that stove. I'd be doing that because, like, honestly, most of the time in the summer, you're going to be outdoors rocking the high heat. You know, that's what I that's what I'm that's what I find myself doing almost constantly. And you can go totally ballistic on the propane outside. If you're going propane. I'm all charcoal outside just because, you know, whatever I am, but not because I'm opposed to propane, especially if you were to put like a... Actually, it's not true. My deep fryers outside and that's totally fired on propane. But you can plum the propane over to like an outdoor kitchen area and then you can just go crazy, like you could do a fire pit with a propane start, you could do like a giant grill on
+
+[12:31] propane. Um, you can even if you wanted. I like everyone knows I'm pro tandor, although the time you came, Paul, we didn't use the tandor. We use the deep fryer, though. Yep. Yeah. Now. Is this helpful at all? Yeah, it seems like, so there's not, it's sort of, it just seems like there's no good guidance
+
+[12:49] for out there for cooks. There's all these, like, there's the ranges out there designed for for looks and for people that don't actually use them. Yeah, that's why I hate them. That's why, like, I just void warranties and get, go, go pro. But, um, inductions. Is that is that an option or is that stupid? Because, you know, so other people are renting out this house. I want them to burn the house. Oh, no, if people are going to rent it. Oh, no. No, no, no. You need to get boneheaded, simple. I didn't realize other people were renting it. Get a boneheaded simple. Get a boneheaded, simple propane fire. Don't go induction. someone will break it. They'll put the wrong thing on. They'll complain. They'll smash the pans down onto the glass lid of the induction and crack it. Propane is bulletproof. It's just most of them suck. But don't buy, like buy one that's, you know, obviously get like the highest
+
+[13:35] end home one that you can get like, you know, whatever Viking or I think Vulcan Wolf also makes a fairly decent one. Viking makes a decent one. And then just make sure that they convert it right to the, um, uh, you know, to put the right orifices and the right uh, Bezos into to run the. And is BTU really, is it a good measure of the output or do you just really have to, is that, is it
+
+[14:00] very from the stove? I mean, what? I mean, it does vary. It does vary a little bit in terms of like, there are burners that don't have the ability to use their full BTU output properly because they spray the heat around the pan,
+
+[14:12] but, um, you know, most like, like most burner technologies are fairly, fairly similar in their
+
+[14:19] vast inefficiency. Um, the, you know, the things that I would look for are the ability to turn down, uh, the, um, turn it down low, uh, because a lot of burners don't have the ability to go both high and low because they sputter
+
+[14:33] out, and also like a good flame pattern. Like a standard home burner with that, like, you know, with that little burner that's only like the size of, uh,
+
+[14:41] like it's like smaller around than a tennis ball. Like that's like hotspot city. You know what I mean? Like, I hate those things. Um, but, but also, um, do not, and here's another reason not to go professional, a good reason to go electric. You don't have to worry about gas pilots. If you have an electric stove, like gas things are usually bulletproofs, but if you're up, sorry, not stove, oven. If your oven is electric, then you don't ever have to worry about the pilot having a problem in your electric oven. Electric oven's pretty bulletproof on that. For the for the top, I think the gas is very bulletproof, but don't get something with a standing pilot because then you have a problem if your pilot goes out and you're not there and somebody's renting it.
+
+[15:19] Just get, you know, one of the ones with the click, click, click that can't be left on,
+
+[15:23] you know, that have all the safety features in that because, like, you know, some other knucklehead, you know, every year I'm more and more astounded by how dumb other people can be, especially with your
+
+[15:32] stuff. You know what I mean? Keep you barring analog, I got for cooking here that we're searching for. Yeah, and also, like, if you're going to do an outdoor thing, like, don't go, don't go something super
+
+[15:45] bananoramas unless you can, like, lock it down and prevent someone else from... I think I think the outdoor, you know, that's a, you keep talking about all this stuff, and I think, like, curious as you as you go forward with outdoor stuff. Some of that, that longer term, but you know, doing, you know, stuff with wood or charcoal outside and crazy stuff, you know, it's going to take longer than selecting a stove, but I'm really interested in doing all that, want to sort of off
+
+[16:08] limit, you know, beyond like the kettle grill or something if anyone's raping it. Yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah, it's a hard thing as, as, as I'm finding out, as anyone will, is that if you're only doing it like 2 days a week, you know, 3 weeks out
+
+[16:21] of a, out of a month. It's hard to get anything like an outdoor kitchen built, but we're working on it. We let you know what happens. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious, because I think, you know, like, that's, that's the reason of, you know, cooking, cooking outside of state as opposed to a 94 foot kitchen in the city. Bingo. All right, well, thanks for calling and hey, Jack, Jack, do we have another call or should we take a break? Sorry about that. Yeah we can take a break. Oh, take a break. We'll be right back.
+
+[17:04] Hi, I'm Steve Jenkins from Fairway Markets. I've devoted my idiot career to the old ways, the old recipes, the old tools, the old geography of where serious foods come from for centuries, and I've strived to make these wonderful things available to New Yorkers for 37 years, so it's a
+
+[17:26] fete accompli, for us to support Heritage Radio Network. And I hope you will too, and I hope you'll keep tuning in. For more information, please visit Fairwaymarket.com.
+
+[17:43] And we are back, Jack, but I can't come back without Jackie Molecules. Oh yeah, sorry. Well, I got nothing for you. I do have a caller. All right, all right, caller, you were on the air. Oregon calling. Hey, John, this is John Daragon. Everyone, everyone should be familiar with John Derrick now. Hi, John. Hello. I have a question about Tom Collins's. So I've been drinking a lot of them. I love them. But unfortunately, my house upstate. They want to charge about a buck apiece for a lemon, so it gets very expensive to me. And why is that good? Tom Collins is for a group. I'm curious about why is that the case? It's true. Why is it that citrus fruit is reasonably priced here in New
+
+[18:26] York, and as soon as you leave, it's a freaking nightmare. Why is that? No idea. I'm bringing a ton of it up with me, but even then it's getting a little tiresome schlepping around bags of lemons. So my question is, can we approximate lemon with some acid
+
+[18:43] mix, um, that I could use in the case when I run out of lemons? No. But no, okay, well, here's the thing. Look, you could, you could do like a, like a little bit. I mean, lemon juice for acidity is really just like a 6%, roughly 6% citric acid solution. So it's pretty easy, but, um, I mean, what I would do instead
+
+[19:06] is, I mean, I would taste it, but you could, uh, you could citrusize orange. It would be a slightly different flavor, but you could just citrus size orange. So you would add 50 uh, 52 grams of citric acid to a liter of OJ, and that'll get you
+
+[19:28] a lemon strength OJ. And then it'll have an orangey taste, but it won't have the lime taste because you're not adding Malik. It'll be like on the lemon side of an orange. And you could do that and that would be fresh. Or alternatively, when back here in the city, you can just take your lemon
+
+[19:44] juice and boil it with sugar and do a lemon cordial and it won't taste like fresh, but it'll last, you know,
+
+[19:52] forever. Let me see, what are the other alternatives? The thing is with acid is it just things taste like they've been made with acid if they don't have fruit to back it up. And I don't know that just squeezing a wedge of lemon in will work. But, um, you know, the, do you do it with the, with the freaking little bar spoon of
+
+[20:09] sugar or do you do it with like, uh, old Tom Gin? how do you handle this sweet? you use simple like a human? I do old Tom and simple. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, like all the, do you like those old school ones where people put like actual like granulate sugar into those things? It seems like a freaking nightmare to me. No, because even if they shake it a lot, you still, that last 2 sips, you're basically getting a mouthful of sugar. Yeah. And like, but they're supposed to be poorly carbonated, right? That's how it works. Like, it's supposed to suck. I mean, I mean, you know, suck. carbonation standpoint. I mean, I try to use a super heavily carbonated vintage seltzer, unless I carbonate myself. But the other option I thought if we did the acid, we could actually maybe do a carbonated one, but as you said, it would just end up tasting like an acid fizz at this point.
+
+[20:52] Well, you know, you look, that you could do. You could just do like, uh, like, uh, but you're not using very much of the acid and then you're squeezing in like a little bit of lemon at the end, like just a
+
+[21:00] wedge, that you could do. That you might be able to get away with. Because a carbonated drink typically has less acid in it than, um, you know, than if you were to, uh, because
+
+[21:09] once it got in it, what's if Tom Collins has got a full half ounce of lemon, right? Yeah, I usually do like two, three quarter, half. Yeah, even more. So like, yes, but they, well, the point being that in a carbonate drink, it would have a lot less. And so the less there is there, the more you can augment with the wedge of lemon and have it have it be done. But try the cordial. Yeah, I'll try that. Because I could pick up a case of lemon's pretty cheap here in the city. Yeah, although, will someone please explain to me why that's the case, why citrus is so expensive up in the
+
+[21:39] suburbs makes no damn sense, right? I don't know. I ask the produce guy next time I'm up there. I think it's because you can't win. I think like houses are cheaper there, but produce is more expensive and you're not allowed to win. That makes sense. Like if you can afford to live in the city, then you're allowed to have cheap vegetables.
+
+[21:55] Does that make any damn sense? You're gonna grow lemons, right, Dave? Oh, well, Yuzu, probably. Cal, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do rank per limes once they're back, the place I want to get them is not available. I have to learn how to do it. Everything takes years. you know this? Uh, Rang Perlimes, Yuzu, and uh, Kalamondans are the 3 that I want to do. Because I like of them. What do you do with Calum London? You make drinks. You know, like they think it's the same as Kalamanti's, right? Are they slightly different? Maybe they're slightly different. don't know I can't find it, like, what Nastasi and I were using in Tokyo. the Sudachis. If I could find a tree for that, that would be the balls. Yeah, Sudachi is great. Sudachi is delicious, but it's so expensive. Styles, remember we were using those things and they were like, when they told us how much they cost, we were both like, they were like,
+
+[22:40] because they're the size of, they're smaller than pink. they're ping pong ball size, right? And they were like 2 bucks apiece or something like this? Crazy. Crazy. All right. Well, I'll try to cordial and I'll report back. All right, cordial face. Let us know what happens. Thanks guys. Bye. John Derek. Dave, this is for you. Oh, Paul brought some stuff, which he, because he said, what are we going to, what are we going to test? What are we going to do? missed your birthday. Oh. Do we have a microwave here? What I have in my hands, people. And is this going to be the new cooking issues of a jetty? Do you know that Vegetti has never paid us a dime? Do you know that fat, you know Fabulous? or his real name is Fabian Von Hosky and Jeremiah Stone of uh, Contra and um, Wild Air? you know, there are restaurants down there? Do you know, did they had a Wall Street Journal article where they used a freaking
+
+[23:30] veggetti? Did you see that? They went all Vegetti. Wall Street Vegetti. I think the Vegetti is like the huge thing, you know? I think we're just, I think we're just riding the, there's not a video, I think. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, you know, I feel that like, uh, because of your buddy Claire there, we were riding the Vegetti... Well, I don't know where before. I think we're riding the wave. I think you hit it right. You know, if you go too early when you're surfing, you don't go anywhere. And if you go too late, you don't go anywhere. You got to ride the wave. Anyways. Here we go on the eggmaster wave. What we have here, apparently, I looked this up after you mentioned it. One of the famous late night comedians, maybe it was Colbert or something, made fun of this a year ago, but I don't know if you ever used it. This is the Roley, the Roley vertical cooking system for eggs. Now, everyone here knows I'm a fan of vertical grilling when it comes to the tandor oven. But we have yet to see whether I'm a fan of, it's called simply perfect eggs. www.tryrolley.com. We have eggs here, but do we have a microwave? Does it require plugs in? It plugs in, we can do it live. Oh my god, it has its own heat source. Okay, so people, as I unbox this, as I unbox this, which is, by the way, the reason I own this is because Paul brought some drones up
+
+[24:46] to my, you see that kid in Connecticut who hooked a gun up to his drone? Yeah. Anyway, he lost his drone at my place and I found it the other day. Is there a good culinary use for drones? Mythbusters used one to slice a chicken. What? With the rotor to prove that it can cut flesh. You need to be very good at your drone control to actually productively slice up a chicken to eat it.
+
+[25:16] A cooked chicken. All right, raw chicken. A raw chicken with a drone. But why, and it maintained its altitude while it was slicing the chicken? I think it was just a disembodied drone rotor. Our drone rotor is powerful enough to cut flesh? Yeah, that's cheating though. I want to see the rotor fly and like decapit. don't want to see it decapitate, but like in a movie style, you would want to see it decapitate
+
+[25:43] people like odd job style. Remember odd job? Okay. I'm holding it looks like an overgrown coffee thermos with a tube. Let me see whether it smells foul. It's rather to be neutral now. Has this ever been egged? has this never been kissed? Brand new. Brand new. All right, do you know the instructions on this? All right, Nastasia is reading the instructions. Paul? There's an outlet behind you. All right, I'll say. Crack open one to 2 large eggs directly into the cooking chamber. After I plug in or do I? No, plug it in. Plug it in. All right. Plug it in first. Yep. All right. And did this somehow know that I've... You have to turn
+
+[26:20] the, uh, red light will indicate power is on. Okay. Green light turns on for the very 1st time, the rolling is ready for use. Did you just have Madonna's like a Virgin go through your head when you said for the very 1st time? Does it want butter? I brought a pat of butter. Everything wants butter. It wants a non-spick stick oil spray. No, it doesn't. It says... It says not to use butter? It says, no, it doesn't say, don't use butter, but I'm sure. This is bitter bol eat infused butter. Oh, we're going to... Okay, so Paul found these bowl leads. Now, as far as I know, most bow leads are non-poisonous, they're safe to eat, but he took it to a mycologist expert. No, I looked on the internet. Oh Jesus. And it says, if you have something that looks just like a Porcini, take a small bite. If it's vilely bitter, it's probably not a porcini. It's probably Telopolis Fellius, the bitter boli. that's what we had. The bitter bullied. That sounds like a really good band. Jack, would you be in a band called Bitter Bullet? Maybe I'd produce for them. What about Belitus Edelis? I like that Yeah, Porcini. But the, uh, isn't that a porcini, put bolina? Anyway, point being... Oh, it's stinking up good. smell this. It smells like an RV. All right, yeah. Or like a Mexican herb. No. Oh man. It's got that, it's got that, you know, you know when you like get like a bunch of vinyl crap and you're about to blow it up for the 1st time? You've never purchased anything vinyl like a beach ball? Oh, yeah. Blow it up as an inflated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just what it smells like. Here, stots, put, give a whiff here. Yep. Yep. Well, we're waiting for Rolly to heat up. Maybe we should answer a question. Paul, maybe you can weigh in on some stuff. What do you think? Well, so wait, tell us about the bitter bol eat butter. You liked it? How long ago did you eat it? It's great. I ate it yesterday and the day before. And it's just the aroma, right? So there's no, there's no, even if it, even if you misdiagnosed it, there's no possibility of... I didn't let the bully come in contact with the butter, but I kept them in a jar
+
+[28:26] together, so the butter picked up the delicious porcini-esque aroma of the bitter boli. Are any of the deadly poisonous mushrooms, do any of them have a good flavor? I mean, aroma rather? I believe they do. Green lights on. Erica says yes in here. Really? Yeah? Yeah. So here, like, you can make amanita. Here, let's do it. lets do it because they're gonna kick us off soon. Oh, don't don't eat the ones that stain blue when you touch it, she says. Stained blue. Now it smells like a mix of vinyl and bolete. You should swirl that around. Is that what it's supposed to do? Well, I mean, you don't have non-steak oil spray. Well, isn't this fundamentally the same as non-stick oil spray? Okay. Oh, now what? Chopstick it? You can use the packer. Due to hurry, hurry. it's cooking Oh, Jesus. Oh, wow. Did you see that? Did you hear the bloop? Hold a second. Use the packer. Use the, use the packer. There we go. Okay, to know, take it down now. All right, now it says wait 6 to 8 minutes. 6 to 8 minutes. That's the whole show. All right, I'm gonna put it down, Paul. Tell me when it starts working on something. I going to get these, uh, get these questions up. Well hit one on them. It says we're fully cooked eggs. So maybe we take it out at four. I don't think you take it out. I think it takes itself out. It rises from the mist. Okay. Yeah, downloading the uh, downloading the uh, the, the questions. Well, you brought something else to taste as well, no? Yes, I also brought some gelato. But this is, you said this, you want to tell people what this is? No, I don't. Oh, no, really? But they can't taste it, and then you tell them. All right, I'm not You told me, so I'm going to have Nastasia taste it. It's not ants or fermented fish. It's quite delicious. Of course, you find Sir Straming delicious. It's almost as delicious as Sir Straming. That is good. don't think she'll guess. I wouldn't have guessed All right, Stas. There's really vanilla at you. You're really vanilla E. Mozo. Mushroom. Oh, wow. Candy cat mushrooms. I've never actually had the candy cast before. Lactarius Rubitus, I believe. All right, so we're waiting we're waiting in the last couple minutes for our eggs to rise. Ron rides in. Hi, Dave, Hammer and the booth, and Paul, I guess, too, didn't know you were here. I recently cured Lardo that is now hanging in the walk-in. It was just now that I realized that I accidentally used insecure number one instead of insecure number two. What happened to my lardo? Is it safe to eat? Is there a way to recover? Thanks, Ron. Well, yeah, it's fine. You know, I don't really think nitrates, so what you do, they wanted you to use a
+
+[31:02] nitrate, a nitrate, a longer-lasting nitrate, like you would use on a country ham for the lardo instead of the shorter acting
+
+[31:09] nitrite that you would use on something like a bacon or a sausage. But the fact of the matter is that, uh, you know, you're curing the fat there anyway,
+
+[31:17] like all you got to worry about is like a little bit of meat that's going to be on the outside, if you don't trim it. I don't think it's going to be a problem. You know, I looked up and I couldn't find a single case of botulism in Lardo, not a single
+
+[31:30] one. I couldn't find it. And in fact, um, I think some people cure. I mean, I know people cure hams just with salt and it goes through the fat and it's fine. Uh, and so I think, uh, especially on a whole muscle or a whole fat. It's not really a whole muscle, right? Because there's no muscle in it. whole fat. Unrendered fat. Um, thing like that, I think are going to be fine. Um, I mean, listen, as my as my son booker says, if I die, it's your fault. If we're dead, it's your fault. I'm like, I can take that. I can do that. But, uh, you know, don't don't blame me if you're dead, but my feeling is is that I feel fine eating it. What do you think? Anyone? Yeah. Insecure number 2 breaks down into insecure number one. Right. The only the only problem would be is if you were to not have it there long
+
+[32:16] enough. You know what I'm saying? because it breaks down so fast that by the time it penetrates to the middle of your product, it's not there anymore.
+
+[32:21] But there's no botulism in there because it's a whole muscle cut. Right. Yeah, anyway. Uh, and there's no meat there anyway, whatever. Hi, Dave, Nastasia and Jack, this is Chris from the Bay Area in California. I made it to Booker and Dax last time I was in New York and was the highlight of the trip. Very nice. you. I recently discovered the show. We been enjoying it every week. Thanks for making the time to share what you have learned. I'm a home cook and I like to batch my lunches each weekend. I can generally invest a bit more time on the batch and then eat better than average food for the rest of the week. I'm having a problem with this strategy, though, when using lean meats like pork loin and chicken breasts. 1st rules, don't use those meats. You wouldn't have a problem with pork loin if you didn't use it. You know what I'm saying, Paul? That's true Stas, what do you think? Did you ever order that stuff when you're out the pork wine? Never. It's always overcooked and dry, right? Always. What do you think, Paul? Yeah, I avoid it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. I'm not saying I'm not saying it can't be good because it can be good. I'm just saying it's mostly like mostly it has issues. How are we looking on those eggs? They're they're coming up. be done in like, they'll be done in time. They be good. If everything's going to come together. Everything's going to be perfect. Everything is awesome. Okay. I can usually get them pretty tasty. Oh, here. After cooking them, I let them come to room temperature. Oh, here, yeah. I typically brine them with salt, which you need to, because they're dry. And then season and grill or broil them after cooking, I let them come to room temp for 30 to 45
+
+[33:41] minutes, and then I refrigerate. I can usually get them pretty tasty the night of cooking and sometimes the next day, but by Friday, the cold slash warmed over slash leftover flavors are nauseating. Uh, do you have any advice for pairing or holding lean meat uh, for 5 days at a time? Yes. Vac it. Like what year the oxygen is oxygen? Oh, I've read the off-flavors has something to do with fat oxidation. occasionally it seems like a starch thickened sauce coat does help. I found experimentally that fattier cuts such as chicken thighs don't seem to have as much of a problem, but it seems contrary to the fat oxidation thesis. I know what you mean but it is true. It does seem contrary, but I know what you mean. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think it's because there's no other flavors there to back it up, so the fat, anyway, whatever. Um, I do like fattier cuts, but also cook a fair amount of lean cuts. Also, what projects are in the works? I'm guessing the centrifugion. I looking forward to it, more news soon, right, Styles? My Pectinex clarified juices are nice, but massaging the sack is getting old. Massaging the sack never gets old. Never. Also, is there some way to funnel money to you guys more directly? I assume that buying books and other products only result in a relatively low margin, making it your way. Thanks, Chris. Well, Styles and I will definitely think about ways to funnel more money our way. But on your lean cuts problem. I suppose since you're doing lean cuts, you don't want to submerge them in oil, which is a good way to do it, right? Submerge them in oil in a bag and evacuate all oxygen, and you're going to be good, or backpack, or if you do, if you pre-slice backpack or like zippy with like some sort of sauce and then like freeze them out, then they can thaw really
+
+[35:11] quickly, like inside of like a couple of minutes. What do you think, Paul? You got any good suggestions? Mm, I would just VAC as is. That as is. It's a vacuum storage problem in opening and closing. I would pre-portion what you're going to use and then, um, and then bag them down and use them during the week rather than
+
+[35:30] up close up, close up, close up, close, and you definitely don't want to reheat, unheat, reheat, unheat. That's going to hose you like mega fast. It's like portion by portion, kind of a, kind of a sitch. You know what I'm saying? But in the long run, use fattier meat. In the long run, the long run solution is to use, is to use fattier meat. Okay, listen, we're getting we're getting kicked off the air here, but so we're going to have to grab something. The egg has got the egg's got to rise. Steam's coming out. Rise. Do I have to do anything to its sides? Have you written the instructions? It's gonna do it on its own. Why isn't it rising? Did we not? It has been 6 minutes. Did we not beat it? It's got here, Paul, hold this. I try the candy cap stuff. Should we take a video of this? Another time. Another time. Well, we will discuss the results. On next week's cooking issues. Thank you, Paul, for coming. And we'll come back. I'm just looking at these eggs. It's not going to make it in time. Come on. It's going to be horrible. We didn't solve it. It's gonna be the worst thing in the world. This is an enemy of quality. Paul has given me a machine that makes me the enemy of quality, which I appreciate.
+
+[36:35] I'm sure it does for tubular egg, like tubular egg craps. Pre-mixed crackers with the eggs. I believe that's one of the recipes. Oh, like, oh, may I? Anyway, all right. they really are kicking us off the air here. But we will give you the results. Thanks, Paul, for our roly egg machine, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritage foodsusa.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Raider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:36] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you live, Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:42] Brooklyn, on the Harris Radio Network, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Join, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia, of the Hammer Lopez. Hi, Gustas. Good. Yeah? Yeah. And got Jack in the booth. How you doing? Good. Ooh. Ooh. You hear that? Yeah. What's up, reverb Jack? That's my new nickname, Reverb Jack. Reverb Jack? Well, you switch between reverb Jack and Jackie molecules. Speaking of which, we had a suggestion in about the
+
+[1:12] hammer, and Peggy from Australia, you know, we have some listeners in Australia, which I enjoy. We've never been. Have you ever been to us? Would you like to go? You don't want to go to Australia? Why not? Far. And I hate their accent. What are you, Booker? So far. For an English speaking country. Don't wanna go. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, what? Wait, you only want to travel for a far distance if they don't speak English? I just don't have any interest in Australia. I really don't. What about New Zealand? I would go there before, but I no, don't have any interest. I need to kind of know what's poisoning you against a whole continent. The accent. Oh my god. Well, that fits in... Listen, people, this is just like now you're getting a little taste of what it's actually like to be with Nastasia
+
+[2:01] Lopez. So, uh, Peggy from Australia uh, wrote in. She had a question, but she also says that we need a new ringtone for you, Stas. And it's called, I just don't like it. And the artist, it's old, is a drag queen who goes by the name of Pauline pants down, but making fun of an extreme right wing person named
+
+[2:25] Pauline Hansen, right? Uh, who was uh, had a political party called uh, or still there called one nation. And among other things, they believed in, uh, in like not giving the aborigines any rights and like basically turning Australia into a big, like, you know, Anglo dominated
+
+[2:41] universe, no immigration, all this other stuff. And, uh, so one of the lines from this thing is my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered. So very, very apropos. Jack, do you have that? Can we can we hear the? I't like it, chorus? Yep. All right, what do we got? we go. Me now? It means I don't like it. When you've turned my voice about, I don't like it. When you boat one nation out. My language has been murdered. My language has been murdered. My shopping trolley murdered. My grocery is just gone. I don't like it. When you've turned my voice about, I don't like it. When you boat one nation out. My language has been murdered. My language has been murdered. My shopping trolley murdered. My groceries are just gone. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, races, rubbish, races. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, races. Spanish. I'll like stop the heat. Well, you know what? I can't win with this. It keeps like egg cup. We don't like shopping trial. You also, do you not like British people because they call their luggage rollies? and jumpers and all that. What's a jumper? Sweater. Why is it a jumper? I don't know. It's like the opposite. You like pop into a somewhere. You don't jump into a... Anyway, so, but that sounds like it was actually her voice being used, whereas there's other versions where it's him singing as her. So anyway, what do you think? That could be your theme song? I like it. I like it. You can't hear the Australian accent too hard in it. Dang. What's like, look, okay, okay, okay, okay. I know our accent sucks too. Okay, okay, okay. Listen, the worst, actually. What? What? What? What? Listen. Jack, back me up because you are a musical sort, right? 9 times out of 10 when, no matter what language, no matter what accent you have, when you sing, you pretty much sing in Neutral
+
+[4:39] American. So British... Right. So you're just going to say, what's the most music? Wait, unless you're like Green Day or some of these American bands that then put on some other weird accents? Yeah, but what if the Green Day accent doesn't even exist? Like that's not even a real accent, right? don't know what that is. Right? I mean, it doesn't really exist, but like, you know, the Beatles basically sound American most of the time. Yeah, but I'm saying. So in other words, like the language of music, which is, you know, melodious, is like a kind of neutral American thing. The counterexamples actually like a lot, like Billy Bragg, who could not sound less American, of course, of
+
+[5:15] course he's not. You like that stuff, Jack? You into the old? Yeah, good stuff, right? How about like the Michael McDonald accent? How does that go? That's I'm not going to do it. Wait, the guy from the Doobies? No, the guy the, you know, the piano playing, singing soulful. That's the guy from the doobies. Oh, maybe yeah, maybe it was in the doobies. I can't do the doo. The doobie, because the doobie, you have to like, yeah, like you can't like, you can't outdoobie the doobies. You know what I mean? Even George Clinton gave a shout out to the Doobie Brothers. You know what I mean? Anyway. My language has been murdered. Anyway, so should we get to that? So should we, now that you've insulted her entire country and said, you have no desire to go there? didn't insult her. Oh, look, I didn't install use. I just insulted your whole country. That's all. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You lived there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were born there like it's part of your heritage and your culture and everything. But you know, it's not you. I dont like it. your whole country. You know what I mean? It's not right. I can't believe you don't want to go. What about you, Jack? I, with all due respect to everybody there. I'm with the stars on this one. On my list of places, it would be kind of low. I mean, convince me otherwise, I guess. don't know. I mean, you know, it's like, how many marsupials do we have? like one or two? Like a possum? Like the worst marsupial. We have like the worst marsupials. Like, what do you want to do with them? What about platypus? You like the platinum? not anonymous? Like, what's the point? You don't, what's the point of anything? What are you going to do with them? You're like, I'm going on a temple tour, Thailand, and you're like, I'm going to go see marsupials. Like, what? Temple Tour of Thailand. Look, I'm with you. You go off the coast in New Caledonia, very rich in strange conifers and strange plants in general. Look, all I'm saying is, is like, you know, since when are you interested in freaking templates? No, I'm saying what sounds, the distance is, you know, the best. Kangaroos hopping on the outback. You don't want to see the outback? No, I don't have any interest. Some of the oldest living things on earth are out there. Great Barrier Reef? Don't care. The Great Barrier Reef doesn't get in for you? sounds good. All right, thank you. I go to Hawaii, like, Hawaii. Like for the for waves and stuff? No, I'm not, you're not catching a wave and sitting on top of the freaking world styles. Let's be honest. Oh, geez. Is that a call we got to save me from like my hateful crew here? Yes, caller, you are on the air. Okay, this is Jasper calling in from Sweden. Hey, how you doing? Good. How you? All right. So you're having problems locating which chiller to use, right? Yeah exactly. Yeah. So, uh, for those of you that, uh, follows been taking a while, so Jasper's putting together a roto app set up in
+
+[8:04] Sweden, and he's looking at uh, Buki, who are, uh, you know, manufacturers of the roto apps, and they also make a lot
+
+[8:10] of uh, chillers. And the question is, how cold does it does it need to go? So my old work, when I back before I was using liquid nitrogen in my
+
+[8:19] roto app, I was using a polyscience chiller, the polyscience chiller, made it down to about -20 degrees Celsius, which is
+
+[8:26] about... very low. So what happens is, is that what you do is, is you have a relatively large reservoir of either glycol or alcohol,
+
+[8:37] right? And you get the whole reservoir down to a, you know, -20 and change. And then during the distillation process, the condenser heats up. But, so like, at the beginning, like, if you do your standard thing where you're putting a liter of spirits into your into your
+
+[8:59] thing, plus whatever you've added. So like a liter of spirits plus, let's say like 200 grams of like peppers or herbs, whatever, right? So usually off of that leader, if I start with 40% alcohol, I'm going to end up with roughly somewhere between 600
+
+[9:19] mils and 700 mils of distillage. So those are usually my parameters. That's usually where I'm working, okay? When I'm doing alcoholic distillations. So when I'm running the poly-science chiller, I'll start out my distillation at like -20 or
+
+[9:34] so, and by the time I'm done, I'm much higher temperature, like -4
+
+[9:40] -5, right? Which is where the where it can maintain forever because that's where it's, that's where the chilling power is equal to the um, uh, equal to the heating power of my uh, thing, right? Okay. So the The thing is, is that early in the distillation, when you get the much more fugitive stuff, right, the stuff that boils more
+
+[10:05] easily, and it's harder to capture, more important to have those low low temperatures at the beginning of the run versus at the end of the
+
+[10:13] run. And so, um, I never minded so much that the temperature would rise over the course of the run.
+
+[10:21] Now you don't want it ridiculously underpowered or having a very, very small reservoir because then the temperature changes are immediate, right?
+
+[10:28] So, you know, the one that I was using, the reservoir was a lot. It was like, uh, I want to say, like, 7 liters maybe, if uh, uh, 7, 8 liters of uh, stuff in the reservoir. And so, you know, I had a good bit of, um, a good bit of stuff that was down at temperature to start my my distillation run with. Now, I also remember, that when you are, um, you know, when I was doing lower temperature, uh, or I should
+
+[11:00] say, higher temperature distillation using a chiller, I also had the, uh, I was pumping product uh, out of my column as it was going.
+
+[11:08] So as it was heating up, I didn't really have a lot of danger of the stuff that was in the receiver
+
+[11:14] flask, revolatilizing and going up through my stacking out through the vacuum thing. So you can, um, you can get around that problem either by chilling your receiver flask, right, which
+
+[11:25] works. Um, or putting a pump onto uh, that onto that spherical joint at the bottom where the receiver is or a 3rd option that I never did was just install
+
+[11:37] uh, like a small dry ice uh, trap in between. So for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about. So we're talking about a big distillation rig that's hooked up to a vacuum pump. And typically, one of the issues on these vacuum pumps is they get, if you, if you start pumping vapor through the vacuum pump that is with your product, you're losing flavor, one, and two, you're, you know, you're degrading the vacuum level because it can't really
+
+[12:01] pump, you know, vapor other than dry air. It doesn't want stuff recondensing in. So there's a little bottle called a wolf bottle. And the wolf bottle is a something that goes in between your vacuum controller and your, um, and, and
+
+[12:16] your, your condenser column. And what you can do there is you can just put instead of like a standard wolf bottle, you can basically make a little like super cold trap so you can put like a little bit of dry ice or a little bit of LN in there and then you have a secondary trap to recondense any stuff that's going to go
+
+[12:34] through, and then right at the end of the run, you can just, because it's a small trap, it's not your main trap, you can pour your liquid into the wolf bottle to thaw out anything you've
+
+[12:46] got in. So those are the options that you can do. But, uh, so, uh, you wrote into me on Twitter, I think, like last night or something, uh, but I haven't had a chance to try to talk to Tony yet that, uh, Tony Cinellaro, our good friend uh, over uh, 69
+
+[13:00] Colebrook Row, instead of townhouse and the drink factory in um, in the UK who's has a couple roto apps and does, uses a chiller that only gets down to, what did you say? Minus what? Nightclubs 10. Yeah, 300 watts. So it surprised me a little bit that it was that higher. That's not, that's just not true. just don't believe that. I just don't believe it at all. I neither do I. Neither do I. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll... I got, I got that, the fact, uh, data from
+
+[13:26] beauty you themselves. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, what I would do is I would, if you find the drink factory, the drink factory, you know, I was going to tweet them out later and then CC you on it, or you can CC me and the drink factory on a tweet and just say, hey, look, we're looking to get a
+
+[13:45] chiller and Bukey lied to us and said you had this. And they'll tell you exactly what setup they're running. I don't believe because Tony likes to run his distillations even lower than I do,
+
+[13:56] right? So, you know, I'm running my, you know, look, it's a little bit of a lie, right? So, like, I'm running my water bath at 50 Celsius, and he's typically running or used to be back when I was working with him on the
+
+[14:08] rotovaps. He was running his bath at like 40. Celsius. Now, as you know, the temperature of the water bath and the distillation rig is not the same thing as the
+
+[14:18] temperature, the distillation is taking place at because, you know, the harder, the harder you're distilling, you know, the greater the temperature difference between
+
+[14:26] the um, between the water bath and the actual product. And I, and I don't know what kind of glass he uses, but I only use fairly thick
+
+[14:33] wall plastic coated glass. And so I have, I have one of the, one of the higher temperature deltas between my bath and the product. So, you know, my standard operating procedure is to always place the back of my
+
+[14:46] hand, um, because the front of my hand is too callous. That why I use the back of my hand to test everything styles. Did you know that? I always use the back because, yeah, because I can't sense temperature with my fingertips
+
+[14:56] anymore just because, you know, whatever. So I use the back of my hand on the on the neck of the rotating distillation flash to judge the true temperature of the vapor because that equalizes out pretty much where the vapor is. So that can give you an idea of what you're, um, kind of where where you're distilling. So, like I say, it's hard to judge, but I know that he likes to run his stuff down at like
+
+[15:16] 40. So if he's running his stuff at 40, like even like the way that Buke wants you to do it,
+
+[15:22] like, they want at least 20 degrees, uh, what do they want? No, they want 40, right? I think they want 40. They have 40 indifference, yeah. Yeah. And so like that wouldn't even work. because it would need to go to even to 0 based on his. And if it only went to 10, you could, even though Europeans tend to have a hatred of ice machines compared to Americans, like you could just use a freaking ice bath at
+
+[15:45] that point. And so it wouldn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't make sense to me. 10 degrees Celsius? doesn't make any sense to me at all. No, it doesn't make for me either, but however, do you have like a number because I understand everything you say, but what I can't figure out is like a chilling power at -20
+
+[16:05] C, like a number for that because I don't have a good feeling for that. It's like 300 watts, okay, or it's 200 watts, okay,
+
+[16:12] or I mean, it, it, it, it's quite a lot in price if you go from uh 200 to 400 watts at -20 for it. So it makes a hell of a difference. Right. So I would look at, so let's say you have like a, I don't really, I don't remember anymore, but let's say you have like an 8 liter bath, right? And I would look at what its performance is at like minus five, Celsius, and I would kind of maximize that
+
+[16:38] number, and then I would, um, and then I would just see, I don't think mine had 200 watts at, I don't think mine had 200 watts at
+
+[16:48] -20. I think it was like 100 and... many, many, many years. I could try to go look up the old numbers on my polyscience, but, you know, its sweet spot was down around -5 or -6 Celsius.
+
+[17:01] That's where the majority of its power was. And then, um, and then it just, you know, the power went down, you know, listen, people, like anytime you reduce
+
+[17:10] the uh, temperature on a refrigeration unit like this, you reduce the number of actual
+
+[17:15] watts of cooling power it has, even though you're not reducing the usage of power that the machine has, it just becomes less efficient.
+
+[17:21] So, um, So yeah, so I would bet that like 200 watts at -20 is fine. As long as you have like, you know, a corresponding, you know, big wallop of
+
+[17:32] power when you get down to -5 and then you get kind of a natural gradation as you go. Because remember, towards the end of your distillation, you're pumping mostly water and you don't really want freeze up on your coils. You want it to drip down into the receiver. But I'll, like, either tweet me and and also tweet the Drink Factory or I'll try to remember later on today and see what kind of unit they use because I know that, you know, they're running them day in and day out and they use only stuff that you can get in
+
+[18:00] Europe and I guarantee you that they do not use something that only gets down to, uh, to 10. Yeah, no, it doesn't make any sense. No matter what buke he says. Remember, Bukey makes great equipment. They're not cooks. You know, you know, it's... Yeah, it's that simple. Okay, um, thank you very much for your um, information. I will make a tweet, then, CCU on that one, Tony. All right, we'll figure it out. Thanks a lot. Alrighty, cool. Bye bye. Bye. All right, now back to back to Peggy's question in Australia. And by the way, uh, she, I don't, what's this, what's this, what's this emoticon? Happy face. But it's not a happy, it's like a happy rising sun. I think it's a new Gmail, happy face. Yeah. So, like, I don't know how to use a emoticon. So I literally just write out what the emotic con is. And my favorite is... Smiling palette poo. And have we mentioned on, we've mentioned on error how much I'm upset that Siri won't come out and just say smiling pile of poo unless you text it to me, right?
+
+[19:06] Jack, have we talked about that? Really? So it turns out that if, like, let's say Booker or Dax sends me a bunch of emoticons, or let's say Stas does it because, you know, she has the same kind of mentality that they do, sends me an emoticon, and I do as well, come on,
+
+[19:23] to be honest. Like that says, that smiling pile of poo, right? Smiling pile of pills. And then you say, please read me, Siri, please read me Nastasia's, uh, you know, uh,
+
+[19:34] text and it'll go, Nastasia Lopez wrote, smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of
+
+[19:41] poop. But if you just go Siri, say smiling pile of poo, she won't do it. Is that right? It's weird. Isn't don't we, isn't it a machine? It's not a human, right? Well, she'll read you what you get, but she will not be told what to. That's the equivalent of someone who like sings NWA lyrics and drops
+
+[19:59] N bombs like they're, like it's raining and doesn't like, and, oh, but won't say it. Oh, I won't say it if you just ask me to say it, but if I'm quoting an NWA lyric, well, then I can just say it left and right, which is not true. It's not true. Either you can say it or you can't say it. to have some morality and that's where we have it. Well, then she shouldn't say your tense. She should be like, Dave, I won't repeat what Nastasia says because she has foul language, right? Or like some sort of like substitution like you do when you're quoting rap songs. Jack, you substitute when you quote rap songs. Yeah, of course you go with the silence on the word, yeah. Oh, really? You blank yourself out. Do you know what? Who is like, remember when Nine Inch Nails used to do their radio, edit stuff, and they would literally just blank out the freaking song during
+
+[20:38] the, during the curses? I was like, wow, that was strong because, because like, up until that point, most radio edits, I knew they would just insert a different word, you know, I mean,
+
+[20:48] or record a separate version, but like the, he's like, I'm not going to change my song, man. You're just going to get silenced during that part. He said, Trent Rezner for as much of a jerk as he probably was. Like, he made some baller moves, yeah? Oh yeah. Yeah. All right. Anyway, back to this question. I don't know. How do I get into what is wrong with me? Do I need to take some sort of medication stuff? I think you do. Oh, we talked about this before. Therapy. Uh, okay. Peggy again writes in. I love my little Anova circulator, but like some others who have written into, I have big issues with the landfill aspect of low temperature
+
+[21:19] cooking. I use Ziploc bags as much as possible, but they have limited reuse before they fail. By the way, Dave, great job on nailing down S.C. Johnson about cooking in their bags. That was a long time ago. Remember that? When I finally was like, hey, can I cook in the freaking bags I can, right? They were like, yes, you can. Using rolls of thick bagging material and a domestic sealer, I can start with a stupidly long bag length, and for each
+
+[21:41] you sacrifice only an inch or so from one sealed edge. More environmentally friendly as well as frugal, but washing all these used greasy bags, you like greasy or greasy? I like greasy. I know. Me too. Yeah, greasy. Bags of either sort is just nasty. Which is true. Pondering reusable options. Is there a preferably non-toxic, and this is where this rising sun smiley, like, uh, although
+
+[22:06] the rock, I'm not going to get into it. High temperature melting wax that could be used as a coating for meats, assuming it was possible to formulate such a
+
+[22:13] wax, would it be theoretically able to transfer heat well enough? It would have to, uh, uh, it would be great to have a coating slash skin that I could peel off, remelt and reuse.
+
+[22:24] From what you know about materials, this is even a possibility, or am I just dreaming? Is it just me or would anyone else use something like this? I also kind of like the idea of peeling back a coating to reveal the magic, like with some cheeses. Oh, you remember the baby bells? They're still around. Yeah, you know, Booker loves those things and he likes to peel the wax and he mutilates. I'm sure you also will wax me later. I don't eat those. Even when you're a kid? What about like any wax coating on a cheese? Jack? I'm a wax mutilator. You're a wax mutilator? Big time. Oh, yeah. Because it's fun. Oh yeah. Do you like styles? Do you like those wax candies, like those wax lips? You know I like all those wax bottles that you won't let me eat. Nickel nips? No, I was buying those for my freaking brother. That's why I didn't. you wouldn't let me eat them in the car. What? In your car. said your car would get dirty. I did not. People, anyone who knows me, know that's a ridiculous thing to say. Anyone who's met me or the fact that, like, I carry my lab. That's going to be candy dust everywhere. This is when you 1st got your car. No, no, no. First of all, there's no dust from a nickel nip. a liquid wax phenomenon. I just probably knew that you were going to crumple up the wax and like, no, you know what? No one. Piper. No, I can't. No, no, no. is crap. First of all, I should record everything. You should. And in full context. No, like weird editing. Nastasia is the queen of weird editing. don't know how to edit. You know, no, I mean, like Nastasio, like, well, Nastasio will, like, do, like, a big Socratic thing where she drags you through a half an hour of arguments and, like, like, a 1000000000 conditions and then, like, okay, in the event that, you know, I was on an island and an airplane and and blah, blah, blah, and it ends up with you cutting your foot off and
+
+[24:02] eating it. And then she's like, that's, that's what, but then when you talk to someone else, be like, Dave wants to cut off his foot needed. No. I don't. It's just like if you give me a whole bunch of things that lead up to it. Would I cut off my foot and eat it if that's what. Oh, never the one that we talk about. Please. Family show. Okay, so back to the question. Coding, wax coding. So like, you know, I'm thinking something like a botarga. Look, obviously it would be possible to get a wax coating that would melt at a high enough temperature, but I think you're
+
+[24:33] going to have problems. Remember, if it melts at that high temperature, uh, then you'd have to get it up to that temperature to dip the uh, meat into. And if it was that hot, when you were dipping the meat into it, it would start steaming
+
+[24:45] the, um, it would start steaming the, the moisture that was in the meat. So I think you'd have, I think you'd have problems, basically. But now, there could be, um, for instance, like a self-sealing wax or something like this that you could just press onto the wax to to do it. I think in the future, what's going to happen isn't necessarily, although I do actually kind of like the idea that you have a steak and then you peel back the wax and then kind of sear it.
+
+[25:09] You don't like the idea stuff? I kind like that idea. What color is it in your mind? The wax red. Red? Yeah. I was thinking, not black. I hate powdered black wax everywhere, like from like, uh, like, or like,
+
+[25:21] actually, I hate the powdered wax from like the, uh, liquor
+
+[25:25] bottles. I hate the powdered wax everywhere, because when it gets old, it gets dry and brittle, right? Don't you hate that? And it's like crumpling everywhere and you're like, why is this happening to me? But, um, in my mind it's that weird translucent beeswax color. Oh. Yeah. like a Matthew Barney sculpture. Anyway, um, I think the future here, uh, Peggy, is that someone's going
+
+[25:46] to uh, do, um, like a, a bioplastics bag that can be composted. I mean, that's what's going to happen right now. It's somewhat difficult for a number of reasons because they don't last long
+
+[25:58] and hard processing and stuff like this, but someone's going to make up a bio compostable bag that works and then we just won't feel bad about it. What do you think, Styles? People wouldn't feel bad about it if it was like corn plastic, right? Right. Yeah. What do you think, Jack? Sugar plastic. Yeah, sorry, yeah. sugar plastic. Is that your new band? Sugar plastic. But there's there's people who make those resealable silicone things, but just the idea of reusing those bags and not getting them 100%
+
+[26:26] clean. The thought of like my dishwasher, stuff full of bags with like greasy crap, and then when you don't put rinse aid in your dishwasher, and then it
+
+[26:33] leaves those little particles. Don't you hate that? Hate it. hate, hate, hate. Okay. And she writes in a quick response to why anyone would want to eat tomato blossoms. Remember we had someone saying that and be like, you're getting rid of tomatoes. Peggy brings up a good point here. If you want to increase the size of tomatoes, you can thin out the blossoms or baby tomatoes, leaving the others to grow larger than they would have done with the competition. Well, flowers probably wouldn't kill you unless you ate lots. Have you ever tasted them? Not a flavor I'd go looking for again. I suspect the person inquiring about their edibility has not yet tried one. Garden Betty had a post on what she could find out about tomato plant toxicity, but I was unable to access her sources. Long story short, she now uses some tomato leaf in her tomato sauce as a seasoning. Uh, and she thanks us for the show. By the way, with tomato. have I ever done the distillation of tomato leaves for you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. So, like, for any of you, have a Rotov app out there and can do, like, low temperature distillation. At the end of the season, after you've gotten all your tomatoes in, but you still have greenery, take the greenery, and turn it into a distillate and that stuff. My greenery has small spiders. Well, we told that story on the air, right? How, like, you shipped these parasites from California into your New York garden and obliterated everyone's
+
+[27:52] tomatoes, and now people, but yeah, but because you don't control the garden, you can't have tomatoes not planted for a year, and no one there understands that, like, in order to kill this California pest, they need to let the land lie fallow for a couple of
+
+[28:04] years because, like, every plant that you have has this, like, agricultural nightmare, like, who knows, you
+
+[28:10] know? I don't know, maybe it'll spread. Maybe you've ruined the entire Eastern seaboard. Who knows? Yeah? Anyway, should we take a break check? Oh, yes. All right, coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[28:33] Hello out there, it's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn. Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[28:50] farming you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family
+
+[29:01] farms, and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from
+
+[29:07] them, and heritage foods is honored, to represent a network of family farmers,
+
+[29:12] and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[29:17] system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[29:31] humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact. Animals raised according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say. You have to eat them to say them. Visit us at heritagefoodsusa.com for more information.
+
+[29:54] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, eat them to save them. So before we get back to the show, Dave, I don't know if you saw, but a little
+
+[30:05] boy came up to the glass while me and Stas were doing our pre-show show that nobody gets to hear every week. Pre-show show. Yep. It's called issues. Yeah, we just complained. That's how you, that's how you fluff the crowd up with the. Yeah, because that's the opening act. Exactly. nice. And this little boy came up to the glass window here. and held up a napkin that said we love hammer. Yeah. And it said, and Jack and Dave too, in small letters. Right. You were last, Dave. But it was mostly about Hammer. Yes, well, that's typical. Nastasia, as much as she like, like, you know what? I'm like, it's not that I'm a jerk. I'm just real. That's all. You know what I mean? Like really just want to acceptance, you know? Yes. Yeah. It wants to be accepted for who she is. That is true. Yeah. Uh, hey, we got, uh, we got a friend of the program, uh, uh,
+
+[30:58] Curious Claire writing in again. And that's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hi Dave. When is Raw too Raw? When is raw, too raw. That's my favorite question. I think we ever got... Yeah, so now I have the, I have that buster. Buster Rhymes is now going through my head. Everything we make we make raw. Right, isn't that what he says? I make sure everything remains raw. Raw. That's it. Can we call that up? Because I love it so much. We don't have the rights. rights to that. Even for, like, playing like, it's like, we're like, it's discussion. It's like educational. It's educational. It's like a news program talking about Busta Rhymes. Who, you know, you know why Buster Rhymes disappoints me? Because, like, you know, when you're young, like being like a homophobe, I could be like, you, well, you're young and just ignorant, but he's been around the world like a long
+
+[31:48] time and he's maintained his kind of homophobic stance, which is, you know, not
+
+[31:54] going to get into it. Uh, when is raw? too raw. I am scared of meat that is too red because I feel like I'm eating a live animal. At what point does it go from Mookau to dinner? Curious Claire. Okay, so what we have here is a psychological question, right? And I cooked steak last night perfectly. But then she used the seals on the cut pieces and like obliterated it. Well, how thick did you cut the pieces? It was skirt steak. So thin, yeah. Okay. So, for instance, you can like, okay, so the color of a meat is what people use to judge how
+
+[32:35] done it is, right? But the color of the meat can lie. Uh, you know, quite clearly it can lie, because uh, the uh, myoglobin, which is what's providing the color, the primarily what's provided the color in
+
+[32:47] the in the meat. The color that it takes on when it's cooked is dependent not just on the temperature that it's
+
+[32:54] reached, but the environment in which it reaches that temperature. So the oxygenation state of it, also the rate at which it's heated, right? So, um, you can take a piece of meat that's cooked uh, low temperature, right? You can overcook it, right? And then when you cut it, and you let it sit for a while, undenatured myoglobin will get oxygen hit on it, and boom,
+
+[33:18] it's what we call cherrying up, and it'll just turn this kind of bright kind of like freaky cherry color. You've seen it happen, right? St us? And this can flip people out, right? Which is why, in general, when you're doing a sliced, when you're doing a low temperature meat, it's cooked for a long time, especially one that tends to have a lighter background, like, so, you know, like a, I don't know. I don't know. But like, what I'll do is, is you slice it right beforehand, so it doesn't have a chance to cherry
+
+[33:45] up and then people don't notice, or you can throw it, flash it under a broiler, which is in essence what Claire
+
+[33:51] did, with a sears all, to just kind of take that color off. Now, you can do it fast enough for the seresol that you don't actually overcook the meat if you're quick. I'm sure she hammered the hell out of it because she was worried about it. But the uh, no insult, you know. But, um, the point is, is that, um, we kind of, you know, the old saw, we taste
+
+[34:11] with our eyes first. So, like, I can I can cook a chicken, like I say, fully through, but it has that persistent pinking at the bones if it cooks slowly enough, and then people won't eat
+
+[34:20] it, even if they know it's cooked. So the where things actually become cooked is a, it can be measured based on like what's happening with the proteins, where it looks cooked depends on a number of variables that are very hard to control.
+
+[34:35] So, you know, you could shut your eyes. You know what I mean? Like, this is like, uh, like when I, uh, when you, when I remember when I was doing eggs, uh, like a long time ago, when you 1st started doing low temperature eggs, right? They, if you're not used to a low temperature egg, that's, let's say, 62 degrees, which is like the perfect yolk
+
+[34:54] uh, texture and that uh, for like uh, um, eggs Benedict, right? And it had, but it has like kind of a, it has kind of a weird look on the
+
+[35:03] white, if you're not used to it, right? So for normal folk, we would pass them through simmering water, right? But really, it's just a visual thing because once you coat that egg with hollandaise sauce, ain't nobody complaining. You know what I mean? So a lot of this stuff is really, really just visual. Now, if you're talking on a textural basis when it's done. That has a lot to do. That does have a lot to do with temperature, but also time. So if what you actually want is something that's firmer. No, it's not that. It's like, am I eating an animal? Well, you are eating animal. It's all bloody. Oh, it's bloody. blood. It's not really blood, but I know. It's not really blood. Like, you know when you put the steak on the plate and juices run out? She's like, the blood, get it off. I'm like, well, even a high temperature cooked meat, it's going to have those juices, you know, unless you let it rest. Say let it rest. And if, by God, if I catch any of you cooking meat until the juices, quote unquote, run clear, I will find you. Like, that's overcooking by so much. You know what I mean? Like, what a nightmare. Whoever invented that is a hater of food. It's like my, you know, grandma and grandpa used to have that like, that like onion soup mix on top of the microwaved, like piece of beef. You ever have that? No, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, is it dead yet? Is it dead? Listen, Claire. Claire. Claire, the animal has died once. Don't kill it again. That's all I'm going to say. You know? Dang. Did that even answer the question? I hope so I don't know, Jack, you're back there. Did I answer the question? I don't know I think so. When is raw too raw? Look, it's like I said, it's a matter. it's a matter of taste, but I will say cooks need to take into account the reaction of their diners,
+
+[36:47] right? So on a skirt stick, how do you cook its does? Just in a pan. Yeah, but like describe it. Oh, I salted it and then I put oil in the pan, got it hot, threw it in, flipped it. Okay, skirt steak is like what, like a centimeter, semimeter in half. How many, how long on each side? I don't know, 3 minutes each side, 4 minutes each side? Oh, so you cooked you cooked it? cooked it. Yeah. So what was happening there is you cooked it and you probably didn't let it rest before you sliced it. No, I let it rest. I slice it, yeah. Really? For like 5 minutes, not long. Well, you don't want it to congeal and get nasty. And then I cut it and there was the middle was perfect. But just seeing red. Chesare perfect or perfect perfect? Perfect, perfect. Cesare Casella, you know, one of our good friends. The man likes raw inside meat char on the
+
+[37:36] outside. But he uses good meat, so it's fine. Me too, that's how I like it. Yeah? What are you, black and you're black and blue, man? Pittsburgh? Exactly. All right. Did I tell you what I was talking to someone? I was like, uh, she's like, I'm no offense to people from Pittsburgh. I was like I was like, hey, Pittsburgh, I hear Pittsburgh's a good town. You ever been there, Jack? Never been there. No, but I want to go. One of the managers here at Roberta's opened a place in Pittsburgh. Really? Anyway, so she goes, yeah, Pittsburgh's great if you like racists. I'm like, wow. Yikes. I did not know that. I think she was just in a bad mood. I don't know. Someone tested, call me and tell me what it's like in Pittsburgh. But I heard it's a nice town. I say her, what am I from? St. Louis or something? Anyway. Uh, we got another question in from uh, BJD. Longtime listener, several time, email her. I want to try my modern hand at Palette de Pork a la
+
+[38:25] Bierre. It was Palette Mina. Anyway, like just pipe like plate, right? I don't know. Yeah. Of pork with beer. I've made it following Bourdain's instructions in a Lesalle cookbook. It was delicious, which probably means do not mess with success. I've circulated shoulders before smoking in the past. That worked well. I was wondering about circulating a pork shoulder dish that is traditionally
+
+[38:49] braised. Would it end up being a final product with only the sauce reminding the diner of the original? I would present more like steak. Am I a fool? I have 10 weeks of paternity leave with a 4 month old and a 3 year old. Hey, good luck. It will be a battle. I'm hoping to dial in some recipe ideas, Sunday suppers. Listen, my memory of being with a 4 month old and a 3 year old because I had that exact thing is like, you know, I'm not planning my cooking time. I'm like trying to plan when I can go pee. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? It's like, when can I just, like, or a shower. Imagine, like taking a shower, you're like, oh, shower. Anyway, I'm hoping to dial in some recipe ideas. Sunday suppers with my circulator, and my new rock espresso maker, uh, well, is the
+
+[39:33] rock, is that, does anyone know, is that the one with the 2 levers, or is that some new one that I don't know, electronic? I gotta look it up. I didn't look it up beforehand. Uh, because I was testing some new equipment. By the way, I shouldn't say is, the reason I might not be as prepared today as I normally am is because I was testing some new equipment that we'll be talking about soon that Booker and Dax is working on,
+
+[39:52] yes? Yes, Stas, Stas, Nastasia is the sole determiner of when we discuss the specifics of what we're doing on air.
+
+[40:00] I would discuss it now. Really? I know. I mean, like, don't we have to see what we need to protect or no? No. No, we'll see. Let me finish the question here. Any tips on things that try with either my circulator or are okay? It says espresso in quotes. I got to look up what it, look up what it is, does. RO what? ROK, capital R, capital O, capital K. I want to master whole muscle meets that can get us through a week. I'll stop typing and listening to days, very respectfully, BJD. Okay, so congratulations on the 4 month old. Look, in my experience, which is, oh, yeah, it is the one with the lever. Uh, in my, I haven't had, I haven't used that thing for infusion, so, uh, I don't know, but I hear it's a very nice machine for making espresso, so you're going to need it. So I would keep pounding out those double shots that you can, you know, have your brain working. Um, I have extensive experience in doing braises in both the bag and in, um, in tradition. If you want something that tastes like a traditional braise, a braise, right? Then you have to extremely over reduce the sauce that you're using because the, um, there's no reduction inside of the bag, right? So what happens is, is you make a sauce that you think is
+
+[41:22] good, and you're like, oh, that's going to be good. You use a stock, you make it rich, then you put your seared piece of meat into the
+
+[41:31] bag, and then as it cooks. The moisture leaves the meat, right? And as the moisture leaves the meat, it waters down the sauce, the sauce is no longer the perfect flavor level. It's been watered down. And so now when you pull out, instead of tasting like a braise, the example I always use, it tastes like a pot a feu. It's good, but it's not necessarily what you're looking for. It's more of a poached or cooked in broth kind of a situation rather than a braising phenomenon.
+
+[41:59] If you want something that tastes braised, You have to go extremely reduced on the sauces and stocks
+
+[42:06] that you put in, like ping pong ball, kind of reduction. The other thing is, in a braise, any veg that you put in, you should
+
+[42:14] pre-cook the veg because the veg will not cook in the bag. So typically what I'll do is I'll sweat out all of the stuff, pour in the stock, reduce, or whatever, you know, whoever sauce, reduce it
+
+[42:28] down, until once it's hard, once it's done, it's like ping pong ball consistency of gelatinousness. Then I'll sear the meats, throw them in and go to it. But now you're looking at having a much kind of a longer procedure. Now, even if you did that, what happens is, is that let's take, uh, you could take a pork
+
+[42:47] shoulder, or you could take a short rib, or you can take a, um, you could take like a cuckle vin,
+
+[42:54] any like, pick any braise that you want. What tends to happen is if you were to do a side-by-side tasting between a traditionally done one and a one that's done in a circulator, most people, if you present them as being a traditional
+
+[43:11] braise, will choose the traditional one. And the reason is that it is just a, uh, things tend to taste more meaty, uh, right? They taste more like people traditionally want them. If you bend your expectations, and you tell people that what
+
+[43:28] they're, because, for instance, in a traditional braise on a piece of beef, that beef will get that kind of stringy braised
+
+[43:35] texture, and the gelatin will melt out of the meat and get everywhere, and so you'll have that kind of
+
+[43:41] gooey. You like that stuff, right? That stick to it, like stick to your ribs, gooey kind of like texture thing that people like. Whereas low temp, it's or with pork, it's the same thing. Low temp, the meat is gonna retain its shape. It's going to retain a lot more of its moisture. It's gonna have a different overall taste and texture. And if you don't prime people for it, then they tend to prefer the kind of traditional one, even though I think that
+
+[44:04] the low temperature one is like a delicious product in its own right. And so that can be an issue. On things like confit or other long things, I'll tend to, when I want to do it in a
+
+[44:15] bag because bags can be convenient, right? So you cook it in a bag, then you can save
+
+[44:20] it and it doesn't degrade over time, so you can, you know, have it over the course of a week. But when I'm doing things like that, I'll typically do them at traditional temperatures. so that I have that kind of traditional taste and texture. And so you can do that with a bag. Another thing you can do, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but if you want to do these long, because I don't even have one,
+
+[44:38] crockpot. You ever have crock pot? And when I was a kid? Did you enjoy this stuff? You could do like a traditional braise and a crock potty kind of a situation and then bag hot, exclude the air, and then
+
+[44:49] refrigerate and you'll get a lot of the advantages of both things. I don't I believe I've ever suggested that. But anyway, it depends on what you like for, oh, I'm about to go. So listen, Stas thinks, I'm going to talk to her off air and we'll come back. I have some more questions I didn't get to. I'll get to him next week. I hope, you know, unless I need to do another catch up thing. But maybe next week we'll talk about our project that we're working on. Yeah? Well, this has been a cliffhanger, huh? Oh, yeah. Cliffhanging cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[45:31] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member. Visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:05] Heritage breed pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Join as usual in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good, good, good. Glad to hear it. And, of course, we got Jack in the engineering booth. Hello. And special guests in the studio today. We have 2 of them. We didn't get, even though Harold McGee is in town. He's not our special guest today. He's on a leash for the museum of food and drink more to announce on that in the next couple of months, but we are super pleased to
+
+[1:04] having the studio with us today. Ariel Johnson, who is the head researcher at Mad with one D. You want to describe what that is, Ariel? Oh, so Matt is a, started as a symposium and is like a food and food research nonprofit
+
+[1:19] that's run out of Restaurant Noma in Copenhagen. Yeah. And no, it's like, anyone ever heard of that restaurant? Maybe a few people. Maybe a few people have heard of that restaurant. Um, and also, Don Lee. And Don, you want to tell him what you do-ish? I currently work for Cocktail Kingdom doing a little bit of product development and also working on trade education now. Yeah. Yeah, more like, more like Don is the evil overlord that runs kind of the
+
+[1:47] back, the behind the scenes of the way the cocktail, like, world works. Like, that's your his actual title is is evil overlord, right? That's the subtitle. Yeah, yeah. The invisible hand? He's actually, yeah, yeah, the invisible hand that feeds or removes, but he's not an evil overlord, benevolent, benevolent
+
+[2:06] overlord, in the sense that an overlord can be benevolent. In a true kind of Aristotelian platonic, you know, kind of a philosopher king. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, so he runs, he runs, he runs the kingdom for the betterment of, it's aptly named Cocktail Kingdom. Yeah, that is happened. You know, because he, you know, runs the kingdom. Anyways, Don may or may not also, uh, oh, and by the way, uh, Ariel, uh, before she was the uh, the researcher at, um, at, uh,
+
+[2:35] mad there, uh, Noma, uh, was a, your postdoc there, right? No, no, I was a like PhD. PhD. So, got her PhD from UC Davis, and her thesis was on the
+
+[2:48] Bitters, Bitters, correct? Correct flavor chemistry. Flavor chemistry, specifically of bitters. And so we have them on the, we're going to get some, by the way, if you have any questions for this crew, I encourage you to call in
+
+[3:03] to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And because we have no sense of brains, like we,
+
+[3:12] like, I didn't heat up water beforehand, we're going to be tasting a little bit later on in the program, this product called
+
+[3:19] Vipova. What the hell does that mean, Vipovid? Anyone read their literature? No. I think I think they had some kind of statement that it's about like vitality and something else. Vitality? It's one of those invented words. Yeah. Yeah, vitality. I don't know what the Pova part. Pova, like Pavlova? Maybe. Pavlovian. Do you like, well, I was thinking of like the, the, Oh, like the delicious dessert? Yeah. Do you like those? Yeah they're delicious. What are your thoughts? Meringues and fruit and yeah. You know what's a good word? Like, not related, but I'm just thinking of piping stuff out. You know what's a good word? Gakquas. The quad, that is a good word. good word, right? So, uh, Ariel may or may not be an expert in the chemistry of what's going on in
+
+[4:03] this, and Don may or may not be an expert. Oh, what is this 5 POVID stuff? This Vipova stuff is a legal tea with cannabis extractives in it. And Don may or may not be an expert on cannabis extractives. When he is in certain states, jurisdictions and countries. He's an expert. Now he's Lon D, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have another person in the studio. His name is Lon D, and he's going to be discussing his maybe firsthand knowledge with maybe products like this, right? Yeah, he's coming soon. Yeah, yeah. He'll be here in a minute. So, uh, so you guys want to weigh in on exactly what it is that we're going to be tasting here, what this
+
+[4:49] Vipova stuff is. Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Well, my guess is that it's basically like, they just took some hemp oil, extracted some, you know, connebinoid compounds into it, and then put it into the tea in the same way you would make like an Earl
+
+[5:00] Gray tea instead of bergamot oil. It's just some kind of cannabinoid oil. Yeah, they took one of these like low THC strains that you can
+
+[5:08] get, um, that's like high in the other cannabinoid compounds and then enrich that via like a fat extraction entity.
+
+[5:15] Okay, so why do I want that? First of all, is it a tasting? Like, do you like the if you had had marijuana tea a lot or extractives? Do you like the taste of it? I've never actually tried doing a water extraction into kind of a tea sense because you're not going to extract it because it's an oil solid bowl. Exactly. So you normally wouldn't do that. The flavor, though, would be, you know, it just tastes like dried
+
+[5:36] grass, mostly, just be bitter. It wouldn't really be a specific kind of a. Maybe sort of vaguely herbal. Right. Like yerba mate? A little bit more green than you ever, mate? Do you find your ramate nasty or good? It's okay, but it's almost more of a bark kind of flavor. It's more tanic. Really? It's not woody. It's surprising that it's like, why is it compared to marijuana, I would say. Oh, oh, oh, oh, Mata is more. Yeah, mata is much more. All right. So any ideas, you guys, on why anyone would want this to have this stuff? says he gets rid of schizophrenia. It's a lot of things. Count me in. Yeah, yeah. Here's cancer apparently. Yeah. I mean, so, like, cannabinoids. As, like, a class of compounds tend to have varying different effects on, like, the brain and your neurochemistry,
+
+[6:27] um, and where, like, THC is really good at psychoactive effects. Getting you stoned. Um, uh, the Canabadial has like other less sort of stoning mental effects.
+
+[6:43] Like? Well, it's like supposed to help with like anxiety and depression and can like stabilize more like, uh, other mental disorders, like schizophrenia. Apparently, maybe. Well, just according to their data or stuff you've read. I mean, actually, I Googled this this morning and there's like, there's a lot of interest in, like, CBD as, uh, as like a therapeutic cannabinoid. Right, right. A lot of interest, but but no, not a lot of studies in, except for specific... Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. So did, you know, okay. It acts on like different brain receptors than THC. Right. So is the question is, is that for those folk that self-medicate with marijuana to get themselves mentally right, which, you know, we all know, you know, uh, so
+
+[7:32] is the speculation that's not actually the THC that's helping themselves regulate, that's just a side
+
+[7:37] benefit. Well, they might want to be looking for like a high cannab a dial strain rather than a high... Why not? What's wrong with just having both? Well, you could do high both, but why not? Yeah, why not do this? I want to do both. Indeed. Uncle Sam, that's why. Yeah, he's holding us back. Government conspiracy. So, like, uh, do this, like, does this, uh, CBD
+
+[8:00] stuff? and I say, what is it, canaba what? Canabagio? Yeah, does this can have a dial stuff, uh, like, uh, make you confused at all or no? Can you operate heavy machinery while you're using cannabidial? I guess we'll find out. Like, well, I have no heavy machinery to operate. We can probably get some. Yeah, you find some. Jack, you got any heavy machinery over there? Um, no, no, would you count recording equipment as heavy machinery? Only if you lift it up and try to throw it over your head and put pretty heavy. Yeah. I can make heavy sounds. Oh my god, do you have one? Let me, we should get one before we go to... What's the stuff that makes you hungry after you've smoked up? Is it this stuff or is it? I don't know. I think it might be THC though. Oh, that's straight up THC. I think, like, the this helps, like, counter some of the, like, negative effects of THC, like, paranoia and such. So this is not going to make you paranoid. This will not, I don't think so. We'll find out. Well, but Stas says it takes like 5 hours to kick in, so we'll have to let you guys know next week how we feel. don't know. I don't know how this works. By the way, so, like, we're not going to have to load up the adopt and screwed version of Mary Kate and Ashley's pizza song. I think we should... That with the world, Dave. That's like, I just learned about that yesterday. See, I'm so behind on my internet, like viral videos that, you know. Anyway, we didn't talk about the trickery ice cream last week, right? didn't get to that one I did talk about chicory. right. I like to get, I like to, you sure I got to the chicory? I think so. Jack, did I talk about chicory last week? I don't I don't think so. Styles were just about to, Ellie wrote in and was just about to get nuked because Styles was like, nah, I don't care about that question. I don't want you to answer it ever. Whoa, whoa. Okay. Ariel, you'll be good on this. And you ever you ever do it? you like Don, a frequent denizen of New Orleans. Do you enjoy chicory coffee? It's okay. You hate it, like a good person would. It's quaint. It's the custom of, you know, of New Orleans. the same way they'll have a beignet when I'm down there. don't really look for it up here. I'll have a, you know, a little trickery coffee with my beignet. Yeah, I think it's, well, I don't like milk in my coffee and they dump so much milk into it to make it palatable
+
+[10:06] that, like, and, yeah. Do you know that? I'm not going to get into it. Okay, I was recently trying to make chicory ice cream and started off by simmering the milk, turning off the heat and dumping the ground chicory root in it like I would do and making coffee ice cream.
+
+[10:20] Well, that did not go too well, and the milk curdled a bit. I suppose chicory is acidic? I assume chicory is acidic? Right? I don't think it's acidic. I don't think it's that acidic, but Ariel's looking it up for you. Or is it maybe some other reaction that caused the curdling. Maybe a lower heat would not cause this to happen. What is the best way to infuse something like that? ISI or maybe cold infusion in the fridge for a longer period? Any idea if there's a listing of some sort of rule or thumb for ingredients that could curdle milk like that and should be infused some other way? By the way, I did not throw away the curdled milk. Perutza. I strained it very well and blended it with 50% sugar by weight. I hoping to use it in cocktail experiments and see how it tastes. Any pointers about that. Spirits methods. Any pointers on that, Don? Like chicory way. chicory wh way. If it hadn't curdled, you know, you can do kind of a milk punch thing, I don't know. You could, I mean, worst case, just try freezing it and using it as your ice, you can add a little bit without making too much sugar flavor. But he turned it into a simple syrup. It's already a syrup, yeah. Shake with it. Shake it out, yeah. Shake what happens. Shake, shake. Like a Polaroid picture. Yeah, shake it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. See you shake your tail feather. Anyway, my point is, is this. Here's your problem. You have many problems. I almost guarantee you. You know what I mean? I mean, I don't know. I mean, in terms of chicory and ice cream. Like, but I think what it is is, um, milk is one of those things that's balancing, like, you know, balancing itself on the edge of curdling pretty much all the time. So if your milk is older and it's had bacteria growing it for a while, it might be slightly more acidic, which is going to make it more apt to curdle. So you could raise the pH a little bit with a pinch of, and I wouldn't do this, but you could raise the pH a little bit with a pinch of baking
+
+[11:56] soda. Yeah, Ariel, that's going to, not a lot because if you take it, if you take it too high, it's also going
+
+[12:01] to be, like, like, milk wants to be in specific kind of range of pHs, which is where it kind of comes to you in the jug or out of the cow,
+
+[12:07] right? Now, assuming that wasn't your problem or partial, when you're heating it, the milk's going to be less stable. And also, uh, there's a lot of, um, like, uh, like phenolic compound, polyphonolic compounds in chicory that, uh, you know, much
+
+[12:22] like uh, tannins are going to cause uh, and it might actually be tannin. I dont know. Uh, that are going to cause uh, things to curdle. So the same way that if you make an extraordinarily strong infusion of like sumac or any other kind of bark and heat and milk, you can curdle it. So the good news is that you might be able to do exactly what you're doing if you add the sugar 1st because high sugar concentrations allow you to
+
+[12:49] stabilize. So, for instance, if you make a 50, if you do a 50-50 milk sugar thing, you can dump acid into it and it'll thicken, but it won't break. You know what I mean? Um, because there's just so much sugar that I guess it's, I don't know why. It's just like not allowing the proteins to get together and curdle as well. Yeah, or like complexing them in some... sugar binds water, so protein's buying water and that's how they fold. Right. So if you're assuming that like a typical ice cream base that I would use would have a liter of milk slash cream and would have 170 grams of
+
+[13:25] sugar. So I don't know if that's enough to stabilize it for what you're doing, right? So you can either do a cold infusion, but you or definitely add after you add anything that's going to stabilize, like egg yolks or anything like that. I would just do your infusion after the stuff has been stabilized. Or else just do like a hardcore tincture of chicory and then add it as an alcohol, but it's not too much so you lower, lower the rate. But almost certainly you're dealing with you're dealing with a tannin or other similar kind of like phonology crap,
+
+[13:55] right? Yeah, I would imagine so. Can is a phenolic thing, right? Canon is a phenolic thing. Yeah. Yeah, and those like bind to proteins. That's how that's how like astringency happens. And that's, as Mirville would say, why? That's why we put milk in our chicory coffee because it's
+
+[14:13] unpalatably like astringent and bitter, right? It's astringent and bitter, and the astringency stuff is the stuff that's binding with the milk and getting wiped out, which is why we add milk to tea, and super strong, super
+
+[14:26] strong, tea in milk, I can get that to curdle in the presence of liquor. In other words, like things that will, like alcohol destabilizes, acid destabilizes, um, uh, tannins destabilize, milk, heat destabilizes milk. Sugar protects kind of milk to a certain extent. I think egg yolks pretty much protected to a certain extent. starches can protect, anything thickens, the matrix so that the matrix. Anything that thickens it so that the proteins can't agglomerate together is going to stabilize. Yeah? Yeah, maybe, I mean, it made me think for a second, like, uh, there might be some sort of like plant proteases
+
+[15:05] in chicory, so, like, you can make like a, like a thistle or a nettle cheese. So then you get like uh, protein curdling via like protein breakdown, like a rennet. Is chicory related to cartoons? I don't think so. I mean, it might be, but I have a feeling your tannin theory might be more correct. Right, but it is true. There are there are plants that have enzymes that coidal things, and so maybe it's there. So, hey, so so liquor boss and bidders boss, like, uh, what, uh, any any commercial amaros that uh, are chicory based? Nothing I know of. Nothing springs to mind. Since you guys, well, since we know at least Don has had shickory coffee in the past 5 years. Like, what do you think it would take, like, what kind of Amaro kind of base would you want to make with something like that? Would you want to do like a bitter space with? Is it not a, is it not an interesting enough bitter? It's not that interesting, to be honest. I do birch before I would do trickery. Yeah, birch isn't that bitter, though. Yeah, but that's why you add other things to it. Yeah, but as a bittering agent, you wouldn't use it as a bittering agent. Like if you're going to do like a southern tomorrow, let's say. Like a New Orleans tomorrow. Maybe. Like a, like a birch and cane syrup and... Right, but it's not nearly as bitter
+
+[16:21] as like quasia or something like that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, but trickery isn't that bitter either. That's what I'm saying. Well, the chicory's not as bitter. So, like, you wouldn't pick it as a straight up bitterent because you'd use something else that
+
+[16:34] is, like, blah, blah, bitter. Right. But so if he's got the trickory syrup already, he can do like a cafe
+
+[16:40] Brulot, if he wants to go kind of New Orleans though, then you're adding coffee, doing a little like, you know, rum, flame job. Flame job. Yeah, flame stuff. Is our is our tea water hot yet? Oh, I can check. Yeah, ooh. Doesn't it make a little like happy sound? It's one of those shows. Is it Sohirushi? I think so. You know, uh, uh, uh, my zoshirushi rice cooker at home. I have the induction, the 18 cup, the one before the pressure, but at the time I got it, which was over a decade ago. was the highest N one. And Booker, you know, he's on the spectrum, right? So Booker used to not be able to stand the noise of the
+
+[17:14] the music that the Zoji Rushi, and so he wouldn't let me cook rice. And so I had to rip, like one day I was ripped open the zoji Rushi and like just cut the speaker wire. So now, like, I forget that Zozirushi equipment plays, tunes for you when it's done. I don't even remember what the tune sounds like. Do you remember, you know what a Joshi Bushi done tune is? I have both a rice cooker and a like the hot water thing, and they play a different tune, but I could not tell you what those tunes are. Oh, so you should, but you're, like, you think subconsciously? you know, oh, my tea is ready. Or, like, or, oh, my rice is ready by the tuna place. Well, I never do both at the same time, so. Oh, well, well, assuming you did, like it should it should just come out and say, rice. And just let you choose the languages, right? Rice. Yeah, maybe. I never remember in, I don't know how to say rice in Japanese, and I never remember which one's rice in
+
+[18:06] Chinese to chow or the fan. One's fried, one's rice. For the record, I'm Korean, not Chinese. I know this. doesn't know that. he doesn't know that. Noodles are main, right? So, uh, Chow is the is the uh, the front, yeah. So fan must be the rest, yeah. And so for completeness in Korean, what is it? Well, so in the Chinese character version, it's pun. But it's usually you say pop is the kind of the modern Korean way of saying it. And then in Japanese, it would be Gohan, right? Is rice. Oh, okay, Gohan Society. Nice. All right. Well, just go to show how little I know about language. Okay, is it ready? We are obtaining the correct vessels for brewing tea. And what is the correct vessel for brewing tea? I would imagine a tea cup for a month. Are you guys going to do like gung fu chai kind of stuff on this or what? No? Should we play trippy music? Yeah. When we're drinking it, we should play some trippy music underneath. Do we know how long this needs to steep for? till it's done, yo. Okay, and Ellie also writes in PS, Dave, the Lebanese Halawa, or Hava, made from sesame
+
+[19:17] paste and chock full of pistachios, kicks that Mexican, fake Halva, which is, you know, remember the, what's that stuff called again? Don, the Mexican, the, I loved it. I love it. No, it's called like... The wedding cookies? No, no, the one that's basically like peanut paste. Yeah, it's got the little rose on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Other than being like the peanut cookie. I don't know. It just went out of my head. That stuff's delicious, but Ellie here is saying that, like, real how that kicks the crap out of that peanut stuff or, like, the Brazilian version. Anyway, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? Are you a Hava? I like Hava. It's okay. I'm not a big holo fan. But do you like those peanut, that peanut thing? Occasionally, it's so dry though. It's named after Marzipan. It's called Mazapan. Mazapan. That's what it's called, because it's like marzipan, but it's like Mazapan. So it's what's hilarious is it's like Hava, but named after Marzipan, and it's like neither, which is, you know, whatever. Classic. Okay. All right, let's see, we've got any more questions in. Did I handle the one about cooking? I had handle the one about batching your food, right? The one who wanted a guy who wanted to cook lean foods or... Yeah, I handled that. All right. I handled the fermentation. I can't believe it. I actually I actually think I got through. Did I deal with, I dealt with Peggy from Australia. her questions, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Remember that whole conversation? Yeah, but there's another Australian. No, no, no. Pittsburgh again. Oh, well, that's for today. That's today. Yeah, get through last week's, last week's stuff, which I think is, you know, looking good. I think I've done it. I think I've done it. All right. What milk? We're not we're not putting milk in. I'm not putting milk, nor am I putting sugar in. B this stuff up. Brew it out. Well, you don't have to. I think the barista was just being nice to you. I don't like when people are nice to me. I don't appreciate it. I know you don't. I hate it. All right. Now, today's questions. From Luke. Hey, y'all. Can you pass this question on to Dave and a crew? Is it possible? This is a good one, Don, for you. Is it possible to make cocktails while you're camping? My question is about ice. How would it be possible to transport and or make ice while camping for a week? Thanks for the great show, Luke. Go hiking on a glacier. the easiest way Exactly, which Don has actually done. Like Don went camping in an RV, though. So it's RV camping, but still camping. That's another way to do it. have an RV in Iceland. Yeah, just go, you know, if you go in the winter, you go winter camping, go mountaineering up in rainier. It a glacier. It's always there. Yeah, of course, then they probably want the hot beverage. Right. Yeah, but that's not the question. That's not, well, presumably that's not the question. The other question is how much stuff can you pack in, right? So you can bring ice and you can bring ice and then like bury it in a pit in the ground and like a, you know, £40 block of ice will last a long time buried in a pit in the ground in an insulated
+
+[22:15] container, but now you're packing £40 of ice in with you. Another thing you can do is, uh, you could, does anyone make like a spot chiller, like with CO2 cartridges
+
+[22:28] that no one does, but if you wanted to take a fire extinguisher with you, you could basically make dry ice and like a pillowcase on the fly, use that to chill water if you really wanted
+
+[22:36] to. Right. So pre-dilute the stuff and then bring a dry ice bag. I'm surprised no one makes like a, uh, so a dry ice, a dry ice, uh, maker attached to a 20 ounce CO2 like
+
+[22:53] air gun bottle should be able to make on the order of 7 ounces of dry ice, which is enough to chill like a good bit of
+
+[23:01] cocktail. Right, but now you're carrying all this stuff in. So the real baller move is, you know, like if you're going to go kind of like long distance backcountry, Appalachian Trail kind of thing, you have people like leave you supply drops. So you just have a bunch of Sherpas, go out multiple days in advance, carrying big blocks of ice, buried in advance at your campsites. And then when you get to the campsite, you just have to dig it up. Now, that's the baller move. That is a baller move. Also, you know, I think if you stick with, um, if you stick with uh, drinks that are meant to be uh, enjoyed at warmer temperatures, like old-fashioned or something like this, you're not going to get it down to technically to old-fashioned, but if you dig a hole that is, um, by the way, when you're bringing liquor camping, you should always uh, buy
+
+[23:44] the, uh, they make little uh, bottle sacks. They're like, like, they're like water bottles that are plastic that hold liquor and they're incredibly light.
+
+[23:52] And of course, you should only drink boxed wines when you're camping because it's incredibly light to bring boxed wines with you. Jordan is making cocktails on her burning man. Yeah, but she's going in RV. That's easy. And you can buy ice every day there. She said you can't. She didn't want to. She wanted to, whatever. I don't want to get she there right now? No. No, it's a... It was it the last weekend of August, 1st weekend of September, something like that. Yeah. Anyway, so the other thing you can do is if you are going to be by a moving body of water, like a river,
+
+[24:21] lake, uh, that, you know, has some kind of flow, a deep enough lake, if you are boating in any way, you can just get a mesh sack, you can put all the everything you want into watertight bottles, like analogy and drop it
+
+[24:31] in, and then just hang that off the back of your boat, the water temperature will be pretty cold, so you get fairly cold drinks.
+
+[24:36] So even if you have sodas or beers, it's a common way of chilling it if you're on a lake or like on a river. Yeah, and the lower you go, the cooler it'll go. And if you're not, if you dig down to about 3 or 4 feet underground, uh, even if you don't hit water, you're probably going to get down to temperatures close to like, uh, in the 50s somewhere and you want a real old school baller, sweet, sweet baller trick, if you, um, if you put
+
+[25:01] your uh, bottle in a, uh, in a jug, clay jugs are the best, but you put it into a jug and then you put towels that lean out over it, you'll get wicking and
+
+[25:12] evaporation and you can basically turn your your bottle into an evap cooler. So if you wrap your bottle in uh, in something that has a water reservoir so it stays moist, but it wakes up and air moves across it and keep it in the shade, it will, it will uh, evaporate
+
+[25:28] off and you could probably get a good, and if go on any of the old, see, the golden age of the camping book was roughly, roughly 1880 to roughly 1940, right? That's the kind of the golden age of the camping book. So you can look up, there's a guy named Mason who wrote a famous one called Woodcraft. a guy named Sears who's who's went by the, you know, the pseudo-Indian name of Nesmuk, wrote one. And all of these folks have these old tricks on how to keep things cool. Now, they're not going to make ice, but they try to keep things as cool as possible. They're specifically worried about like stuff going bad that's refrigerated. for instance, the animal you just shot in the face. Uh, but, uh, they all have uh, strategies uh, for for things like that. Another good way is to go camping in the high desert. It gets pretty cold at night. You get some serious evaporative cooling there. You could probably get a good temperature delta like 20 degrees or something. So, Dave, I'm back country camping by Lake Superior next week. So I'll try out some of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Well, you should get a hold of that book. One of those books, Woodcraft. I think Mason does it. There's another one, a famous guy. I can't remember his name, but they're all published between, like I say, like the late 1800s and
+
+[26:35] the 1940s. So they all, they, they, they are prior to the leave no trace model of camping. And so like the 1st thing to do is fell a number of large trees. And
+
+[26:46] then like, you know, like, you know, have the person who brought your, you know,
+
+[26:50] you know, camp equipment in with you. Like, some of them tell you how to trek a loan, but also some of them tell you how to do, like, the old gentleman's camp where you do have people that you hire to carry all your crap in. Like all your cartridges and guns and... It's like burn a 30 foot circle for your campsite and salt the earth when you
+
+[27:06] leave. Oh, you would not, you would not believe, Ariel, you would not believe, like, they're like, if you need to make a fire to cook on. Like, literally, they fell 2 giant trees and make a V so that you
+
+[27:18] have like, like a larger fire, fire as it goes down to a V, and then they fill the entire interior of
+
+[27:24] this like 15, 16 foot long V with logs, light the whole sucker up down to Coles, fell another tree to
+
+[27:31] make like cross braces for like spits. I mean, it's just they're freaking bananas. These folks are bananas. And they have people carrying like large cast iron. Remember, like things like Dutch ovens used to be camp camp equipment. Would you carry one of those things into the woods? No, you would not. No, you would not. Car camping or hired people camping. You know what I mean? glamping. Glamping, glamping. Yeah, but it used to just be like the way you did it. But then there was like the nut bags, like the muers and whatnot who would just like, you know, go out there. This guy, Nesmuk, I told you about. He was one of the original, like, canoe portage guys all around the Adirondacks up in upstate New York, and he had someone build
+
+[28:11] him, like, a traditional Native American canoe. He was a small guy. He was a very small guy, so he could get away with a short kind of a canoe, a small canoe. His canoe, I think, weighed under 15 pounds. And so he just, you know, would just like, you know, go out with that and like his
+
+[28:24] backpack and, you know, and chill. People, you know, you can't really do that anymore. It doesn't really, I don't know. This stuff looks weird, man. This stuff's got emulsify crap in it. So the tea bags have this sort of like greasy, greenish color to them. And then as soon as you put the tea bag in the in the water, it becomes kind of cloudy. Is there any actual tea in it? It does have a bitter back to it. It has real tea in it. Yeah, it tastes kind of, I was going to say, it tastes somewhat like tea. Tastes like tea. It's been brewing for like 4.5 minutes now. You've been brewing for 4.5 minutes. Not done. I took mine out immediately. Wait, are you drinking it? Yeah. But are you drinking a jack? Oh, do you want one, Jack? No, no, no. I mean, yes, yes, I do, but I should not. I'm working. Like we're not. And we're not working. All right, I'm sipping this... Oh. Dude. Dude. How much this do I have to drink to get anything? But you have the packet. You have, like, the... The promotional materials. Well, I don't think there's no psycho... Well, there's got to be psychoact. Why am I doing it if there's a why? Why? Because the... The other... Hey, it's like, you know, it's like, it's like, uh, it's like O'Dools. All of the beerness, none of the beerness. No, like, in other words, this stuff, what's it called? In my head, it's, I'm saying, CJD, which is Yakub's
+
+[30:08] Kreichfeld disease, which is not what we want to see. See, exactly, that's CBD. This has supposed to have some sort of benefit for me, right? I'm supposed to find my Pove is supposed to get vibed up. It's like it's like homeopathy, though. you know, it's gonna make everything better. There's no science behind that. Is it, I don't know, is there? Well, I don't know, like the, I don't know. Like someone's got a call in. Someone's got everything. do you think, though? do you think? You like the flavor of it? It's not very good tea. 1st criticism. Second of all, I mean, it definitely tastes like the cannabis oil. I don't like the flavor. Jack, you don't like that flavor? By the way, I've learned a lot about Jack. When we're going to drink that. This is, like, that's the music that he puts on. Like, I was thinking more like, see, I don't know how a user, right? I was thinking more. I was thinking more like Pink Floyd metal. One of these days I'm going, what is it, chop you into little pig? You know that song? Bam, bam, bam, bam. You guys listen to that old stuff? Sometimes, yeah. It's good stuff. I had to go with the royalty free also, you know. Yeah, that is cool. Oh, yeah. Do you think Pink Floyd's going to like really get on our case for telling people that one of these days we're going to chop them into little pieces? I mean, Roger Waters? Yeah. could see it happening. Wow. Wow. calling him out All right, let's take a commercial break and we'll come back, see whether or not we're psychoactively affected on the cooking issues.
+
+[31:31] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins, I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle, Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[31:49] farming you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms, and a fully traceable food supply.
+
+[32:03] You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them, and
+
+[32:08] heritage foods is honored, to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food
+
+[32:16] system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage, turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo
+
+[32:25] churro, lamb chops, is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts.
+
+[32:34] It's a simple fact. Animals raised, according to this philosophy, taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. Visit us. Oh, we're not. And we're back. And we're back. Oh, by the way, I like how you cut him off, right when he was going to say to visit our website. He got high. He got high. I got high. I got high. It was heritage foodsusa.com. Speaking of that was the website. Yeah, speaking of website, uh, like pretty soon, you guys are going to be able to, what's it called? Live. What are you going to live? they're going to be a little live due? many things. There's a forum. The new website's really awesome. Yeah, the live stream, you can, there'll be a chat. So you can like actually chat us live. I'll have it all pulled up here. So, you know, you can harass us, ask us questions, make comments, and then I can pass those on to Dave. Right, so the way it'll work is, is like, let's say, I'm not saying you're doing this, but let's say you're at your place of
+
+[33:30] work and you have the headphones on, which, by the way, when I was a kid, you couldn't do that crap. You couldn't put headphones on when you're at work, you know. Anyway, let's say you have your headphones on and your children's workplace? Yeah, you know, your cubicle. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, you have them on and you're listening to us, but you can't call in, but you want to say, so what you do is you'll stream crap in, Jack will see it, and
+
+[33:49] you'd be like, hey, Jack, don't all those idiots that they're wrong. They're morons. And he'll say, uh, you know, blah, blah, whoozy mutt, blah, blah, says that you are, you know, idiots, right? And then you can... That's exactly how it's gonna work. And there's all there's other benefits, this new website that you guys helped pay for. Is this true or false? true. 100% true. I have a caller. Oh, all right. Call her, you were on the air. Hi, this is Jud. Hi, Dave. Hi, Don. Hey, Jess, how's it going? Hi, good. My question's kind of for both of you. Um, Don, I, I know you and I got in a very intense conversation in New Orleans, um, in regards to categories of food. And I just wanted to know kind of Dave's perspective. Um, we got in a pretty intense argument about, um, if a quesadilla, it falls under the category of a sandwich. And I just wanted to know. what they think. Okay, listen, listen. Listen. Uh, okay, okay, okay. I gotta calm down here. Let's let's just let's look at this from a number of different perspectives, okay? Define sandwich, Don. I believe a sandwich involves 2 things of starch. Oh, oh, oh, whoa, whoa. Rice? Something in between. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Squish rice? All right, all right. Arranged? horizontally. I think you can make things with rice crackers. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You could make a, you could make a, what is it? Rich, which crackers with peanut butter? Is that a freaking sandwich? Is matza with peanut butter in between a sandwich? You know what an Oreo is? A sandwich cookie. Not a sandwich. So sandwich is an adjective as well as a noun. Sandwich is a category of the way you stack. First of all, it could be a bad sandwich. No, no, no. First of all, sandwich you don't want. Sandwich is sandwich is made. Here's sandwich is with bread. Buh red. Red. Once again, I go to the matza example then. It is the bread of suffering. It is the, you know, are you going to deny the Jews, their bread, when they're running away from the Egyptians? Two pieces of pizza flipped on themselves. Are they a freaking sandwich? Only if there's something in between, but it's not pizza. Is a calzone sandwich? No, because it's round. It's cal What? It's like a burrito. What? Burrito definitely not a freaking sandwich. Clearly, much like a wrap. Oh, have a calzone. Oh, yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait. quesadilla not then because it's folded. Okay, here's the question then. What about a freaking if you were down to the last slice of bread and you wanted to make a sad grilled cheese and you folded that last piece of bread in half with cheese and you've made it on a griddle, is that still a grilled cheese?
+
+[36:37] If you believed in God, you would cut the bread in half rather than fold it. Or even if you were an atheist with like a iota of self-respect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, but I don't know that this folded thing, for instance, a lobster roll is a sandwich, and it's made on a split bun. Definitely not. It's a freaking sandwich. It's a hot dog a sandwich, then? Obviously not. I mean, in other words, it is a sandwich, but it gets its own category. Right? It gets its own category. The only thing that gets its own category is a hamburger. Hamburger gets its own freaking category. What's a patty melt? What a patty melt. It's a kind of hamburger. My question is, whoa, whoa. Now a matter of horizontal versus vertical and how you actually consume. How would you constrain it? The
+
+[37:23] vertical quesadilla. No, the hot dog is vertical. Or long, that is why. The split in the bread is vertical is what you're saying. Exactly. Okay. So whereas a Italian sausage... So when you buy a crappy, when you buy a crappy hot dog, freaking bun, and you open it too much to toast it because you're one of those people that toast their freaking hot dog buns, right?
+
+[37:45] And it breaks into 2 and you hand them that crippled hot dog that falls through the thing, is it now a freaking sandwich? Not to hold it sideways. No, because if it's fallen through, it's still vertically stacked. It's not horizontally. But then if you have to, like, rotate it 90 degrees. Now you have a failure of a hot dog. So the Oxford Dictionary. What do we think? An item of food consisting of 2 pieces of bread? Two pieces with meat, cheese or other filling in between them, eaten as a light meal. So would you say this Oxford? It shows what they know. Oxford, by the way, which not a sandwich? Oxford English Dictionary, world-renowned for being crappy when it comes to definitions of food or etymologies related to
+
+[38:29] food or historical timelines related to food. World renown for being the worst. Where should he go? Where should she go? To life, to life. The company subway, right? Do they manufacture sandwiches? A sub is a subcategory of sandwich, yes. Even though they're not split all the way in 2 anymore? Look, in the old days, they would take the knife and they would go, shippy, shippy, shippy,
+
+[38:53] shippy, and rip the V out and then the V would be a pseudo top to it. Now they just slice it in half because they're too inept to use the V slice anymore. And that's why if you get a subway now versus a subway 15, 20 years ago, it used to be you could eat them without it spraying all over the inside
+
+[39:07] of everything and now everything sprays everywhere because it's just so nasty. You know how you eat a subway sandwich that's spring everywhere. Because I get lots of toppings. I enjoyed mayonnaise and mustard. And so, like, the stuff like they, they put it at the end and it freaking extrudes out of the side. the most important thing in sandwich is not the definition. It's the construction, the layering that goes into a proper sandwich. It's true. The worst thing you can do, somebody, is to silo their burrito. Have you ever done this as a joke? No what is it? When you give them, you make a burrito for somebody. You make him in silos of all the different ingredients, the wrong way. No, but that shows why a burrito is a piece of crap. Because it's got to too much freaking, like, I want my rice and beans separately. I want a small object, like that I can consume burritos, burrito, 1st of all, like a burrito is an inferior chimichanga. Right? And an inferior intro. it's like an inferior inferior product, no? It's an inferior product. agree. Yeah. What do you think, Ariel? Inferior to what? Well, like, for instance, like, it would be better just if you deep fried it and turned into a chimichamba. That's true. I would always rather have like 2 or 3 tacos than a burrito. Oh, 100% of the time. I'd rather have taquitos than a burrito. I would rather have enchiladas, even though it's totally different than a burrito. And I would rather have quesadilla, frankly, than a burrito. But is it a sandwich? quesadilla? Here's another thing. Like, is an open faced sandwich, even though it's called open faced sandwich, a sandwich. Not according to the Oxford English idiots. I would say yes, because the normal form is closed and you have to denote that it has been opened. But it doesn't serve they don't serve it with next... But don't a sandwich you have to eat with your hands. Ooh, here's an interesting question. Bill de Blasio would say you can eat anything with a knife and fork, including pizza. Well, like in... In Denmark, where I usually live, we have like open face sandwiches, s'more abroad, which are impossible to eat with your hands. You like literally cannot. This is never meant to be a closed sandwich that you may or may not open. Smorgas is always open. Oh, yeah, it's more about a... It is the normal form of a smorgas is already open. Yeah. So you didn't take a sandwich and open it to make a smorgas. But then if you ask a Danish person what a s'more broad is, they're, oh, open faced sandwiches, but why would you ask the Danish person that? They're just being polite. They're trying to translate it because they all speak English and they're not worried about the, like the, the nicety, the fine points of the language, right? You mean, right? We got a tweet in. This is why this is a treat about sandwiches? It's our buddy Elliott. He says, sandwich argument, same as pretzel argument. A sandwich is one thing, everything else subcategory. Well, the pretzel argument to me is there's no such, like, a pretzel rod is not a freaking pretzel. It's a pretzeloid. sandwichoids maybe. Okay, here is...
+
+[41:47] Well, yeah, in other words, it's like, is Pluto a planet? Nah, it's planetoid. I mean, it's in the same realm, although I don't I don't really think of anything with unleavened bread. Sorry, Maza Bay sandwiches as like the actual hardcore category. To me, it has to be leaven. So anything with a tortilla base or like a roti is not a sandwich. Uh, like, like anything that's got an unleavened bread based to me is not really technically how I think of as a sandwich.
+
+[42:14] To me, it has to be kind of a leavened bread base. Um, I think it can be opened or closed as long as you designated. I think it's like anything else. It's like pornography. I know when I see it. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, a sandwich is, you can just tell what it is, but a pretzel is super freaking clear.
+
+[42:30] A pretzel, okay? A pretzel is a wheat dough that contains no oil. You hear that? Bachman's. pretzel contains no oil, right? It's usually made with a sourdough kind of a leavening technique. It is rolled into a tube shape, twisted into a pretzel shape,
+
+[42:52] right? It is a pretzel shape, right? It is then cooked in an alkali solution briefly to get, and if it's not cooked that way, then it is a pretzel shaped piece of bread,
+
+[43:04] right? And then you can either cook it hard or soft. And you can have it with salt because you like things that are good or without salt because you're a bad person. Or sometimes sugar. Some idiots dip it in butter, but I don't like that. Do you like that style? This soft pretzel dipped in butter. It's not my favorite. Hey here's one. I mean, I like butter, but hey, like, bagels clearly a bit, here's the interesting one. Is a bagel a sandwich? When you cut it open? A bad sandwich. I don't believe in eating bagel top and bottom together. We've had this discussion. I shouldn't. So it's up to you could make a bad sound. Yeah, I've heard people like say that I'm bad because they like to eat their bagel top and bottom because they like all the fillings to squeeze out. Yeah, those people are just wrong. We all know that. Well, I think the reason is because they're eating a bagel that has no backbone, no structure. So there's like, if you have a bagel. I don't place the bagel to get any of the effect. Yeah, like a bagel should be eaten with like open whatever you have on it should be open. It should always be open. Always. An egg sandwich on a bagel, you're opening that up? No, that's wrong. You should never put an egg sandwich in a bagel. Egg sandwich, a Kaiser roll. Come on. Jack, how long you been in New York? Egg sandwich goes on Kaiser Roll. 100% of the time. I say like one out of every 5 times I go for the bagel. What? No? One out of every 5 times. I get an egg. First of all, first of all, in my mind, I have that nasty, sallow,
+
+[44:26] like, uneven bagel in my head that you get at the joint that's making the egg sandwich. That thing is just an abomination anyway. That was made like 8 years ago, that bagel. Yeah. What do you think about the croissant sandwich? I mean, cross sandwich. Slicing is a croissant open and putting something inside is a long tradition. Is it a sandwich? No, it's a pastry. Ooh. Hmm. Different thing. Anyway, like I was saying, like there are things like for or against. I would like if I said, if I said, let's have sandwiches and someone handed me a hot dog, I'd get angry. If someone said, let's have sandwiches and they handed me a quesadilla, I would, I would, I would tell them to go to hell. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's just like, honestly, what would happen. If someone handed me something that's like closer to a say. frankly, if someone, if I said I want a sandwich and they handed me an open face sandwich gravy port all over it, like a piece of toast, some freaking like shredded dry as hell turkey and gravy on the top, I'd be like, I asked for a freaking sandwich.
+
+[45:24] You know what I mean? Like, and you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, here's my question. I think we've done this before. BLT season coming up people. And by the way, by the way, I had some Anastasias tomatoes on my 1st BLT of the season. They were delicious. Thank you, Nastas. Yeah. BLT sandwich. Do not let people make their own BLT sandwiches because they will not put mayonnaise on both the top and the bottom piece of toast.
+
+[45:50] Do not over toast your BLT so that your mouth becomes excoriated from the BLT as you chew on it.
+
+[45:56] Do not make a BLT from a bread with too much structure. This will ruin the effect of a BLT sandwich. Do not make a BLT with some wimpy kind of
+
+[46:08] like fancy Dan lettuce that doesn't have good crunch. My preferred BLT lettuce is iceberg. Crap on all of you. anyone anyone going to come out against me on this? What do you? No, I think that's correct. All right. A good tomato, right? And like 3 strips of good bacon, salt, pepper, that's it. You should also salt the tomato separately, and you should pepper the mayonnaise on each side of the bread. Amen. That is how you make a freaking BLT sandwich. What about a refrigerated tomato? Oh my god, you got to give Dan your face. All right, listen, listen. Listen. Get out. Uh, we have, uh, we, listen, Nastasia told me, uh, we're getting kicked off the air soon. What are your thoughts on this cannabinoid tea, by the way? Can what is it, canabadiaa? Can have a dial? Cannaba die all sounds like Cannaba, cannaba. You like it or not? You feeling anything? I'm not feeling anything. I'm thumped down. It doesn't make the tea taste any better. Like adding bergamot to tea, makes delicious Earl gray. Adding cannabin, whatever oil to the tea makes it taste like muddy, something. But it's a functional thing. It's a functional thing. I'm feeling a function from this table. Yeah, but you're not supposed to. anyway, listen. Nastasi tells me that we're going to be on hiatus for a month because we're going on hiatus for a month while they
+
+[47:23] sit and when we come back from the hiatus, the new website will be up and running and you can live tweet us not. So let me try to rip through a couple questions like instantaneous fashion. Zach from Pittsburgh writes in, how you doing? Pittsburgh is the place to go if you like races, huh? It comes from an earlier thing because if someone said that to me. I doubt it is much different than any other city. There are good people here and bad. Our food scene is getting a lot better. It is pretty nice. Check it out sometime. I'd like to. Food questions. Why can't restaurants handle fresh cut French fries? So many places like to talk up their fries, but then you get them and they look great, but in reality,
+
+[47:51] they're undercooked floppy, waxy, and bad. A good French fry shouldn't be so hard to pull off, especially when it's probably your most served food item.
+
+[47:57] To me, it is a sign they just don't care about quality. That's right. It actually is more difficult than most people are willing to take on to make a good French fry. It's not difficult in the sense that you don't need to have a PhD to do it, and you don't need to be, you know, a rocket scientist, but you do need to do more steps than most people want to do, to make a good French fry, even if you don't use the enzymes or any other
+
+[48:19] stuff, requires at least 2 at least one boil step, at least a dry step and a single
+
+[48:25] fry, and then probably a free step and then a fry. So if you're not willing to do all that crap, like with a soak beforehand. You know, you have some sort of soak, whether or not you use the enzyme or not. So, like, you're talking about a several hour prep and do it. So most people are like, I'm going to make a high quality French. See, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Orita, right? or whoever you're buying your French fries from when you're buying Cisco, whatever it is, like, yeah, yeah, most of the stuff they make is Drek compared to what could be made at home, but they have a lot of research,
+
+[48:51] time, and decades of French fry under their belts, right? And also frying french fries from frozen turns out to be a good way to get good crust texture. So I often, depending, especially if I can't do my enzyme treatment, I will freeze my fries because for a quality reason, right?
+
+[49:07] So you're going up against, it's like trying to make ketchup. Like Heinz does a good job. You know what I mean? So you, in order to do a better job, you have to actually put in more work than
+
+[49:18] you think. And most people who make their own French fries, simply don't know how to do it or they don't care. You know what I mean? Okay, we have one more. I want to, uh, get in before we go. Uh, let's see, one more, hold a second. Okay, you ready for this? is a complicated one. Uh, we have a call, by the way, the best uh, Twitter thing, a
+
+[49:39] Jews Bouche, a Jews Bouche. I guess he's Orthodox. David Statman. Orthodox. So anyways, he wants to use the seers all on Sabbath, right? So here's the thing. He's like, you're allowed to transfer a flame, but you're not allowed to make a flame. So the Burns Matic TS 8000 that we use. You press the button, click, click, click, click, right? And it causes the frame and it's flame. And so he's saying the button's the problem, right? And then, but transferring the flame's okay. So he wants to get a different torch and uh, and pass uh, basically just turn the gas on and pass uh, the flame to the sears all that way. My feeling is, uh, David. Now, I'm no rabbi. But my feeling is the same. No rabbit. Are you sure? pretty sure. But my feeling is that you are not allowed to turn the valve on. Can anyone do that? Jack? while we're signing up. Can you do a quick search on whether or not you're allowed to open and close valves on the Sabbath?
+
+[50:37] Yes. Yeah. I don't believe you're allowed to open and close vowels on the Sabbath. sounds dubious. Yes, I don't, because I would believe that that's the functional equivalent of a circuit and you can't turn circuits off and on. Anyways, so my feeling is you're going to be shafted on the valve. Now, what you could do, what we could do, is you could hook, don't do this. incredibly unsafe. Please don't do this. But you can hook up a timer to turn on a torch at a specific time,
+
+[51:02] uh, including the Piso ignition, and as long as you set it up, right, at the right time, you
+
+[51:07] can do another option is that you could, you need to go read Alan Dundas's book,
+
+[51:12] uh, The Sabbath Elevator. Okay? There's a whole book on the Sabbath elevator by a guy named Alan Dundas, who, interesting in life,
+
+[51:18] found, interestingly, found out only about things like the Sabbath elevator late in his life. He's a folklore expert, even though he's actually, he's Jewish, but he just didn't know much about it, I guess. I't know why he's not doing the research. And uh, he uh, did a bunch of uh, stuff on when it is okay to use, uh, you know, the uh, the uh, Sabbath boy, right? So, for instance, in the elevator, like technically, you know, I can push the button for you, because I'm a boy, although you got to make sure that I'm not Jewish, because if I'm
+
+[51:46] Jewish but not practicing, like, that's not cool, but you're not technically supposed to be like, hey, dude, can you press that button? They just have to know to do it, right? So you have to pre-hire the goi to show up, invite a goi to dinner on Sabbath. is my plan. And invite a go to dinner on Sabbath and tell them, like, you know, when you get here, Uh, when you get here, it might be
+
+[52:06] nice, like, when I lift my hand in the air, if you were to take my TS 8000, ignite it and depress the button that keeps it on. And then they could do that, and then you could sear with it, and then you'd be like, and then they would know that when you put it down, you'd be like,
+
+[52:21] hey, when I put the thing down, it might be nice if it didn't stay on and burn my house down.
+
+[52:24] You know what I mean? Yeah, Siri's all going. Sears all going. No valves. No valves. See? You're going to have to go with the sears all goi. Sears all go. We'll come back in one month, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[52:48] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. Hi, this is Celia Kutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio
+
+[0:17] Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello, and we're back. It's Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues coming to you live for the 1st time in a long time here on the Harris
+
+[0:39] River in Bushwick. What is it? What are you say? You not gonna do it for me? Oh, what? Brooklyn. On the Heritage Radio Network. Joined, not as usual. Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez is caught on a train back from... No, I'm in a, no, I didn't take the train. You told me to find a good place, so I'm in a crappy hotel room. What's up, crappy hotel room? Are they about to kick you out? Are you are you staying past your checkout time? I did the late checkout. Oh, what's up, late check? Stop, are you leaving the hotel door open? The whole, the room dear room. Georgia room. Oh, hello, Peter. Oh, yeah. So everyone who, you know, we've been gone for like a month. What they really want to hear is a bunch of inside jokes, I don't understand. Oh, they don't. Yeah, so joined via phone from Harvard at
+
+[1:25] Boston and Cambridge, actually, because Harvard and Boston, never the 2 shall touch. How you doing, Stas? Good. I'm actually at Leslie, the school next to Harvard. What do you mean? Leslie didn't invite. So Mark Ladner was doing the, uh, like the public lecture and the, uh, what's it
+
+[1:46] called, the, uh, student lecture for the, yeah, for the, uh, you know, the Harvard Science
+
+[1:51] cooking uh, class there. Stas and I were there last week doing it with Harold McGee. But, um, why are you not, why is Harvard not putting apart? What are you doing at Leslie? No, I'm joking. I'm at Arbor. Oh, okay. All right. And how was the lecture? Uh, it was good. It was good. He got through all his demos. Okay, by the way, another inside joke. This is like, Nastasia, you got to understand. So Nastasia likes to joke that I never make it through the demos that I intend to do, and that's just because I plan more demos than I have time for in case I get to
+
+[2:27] them, and then I just keep moving until I get through what I get through. That's my MO. I've done it forever and we'll continue to do it until I stop sucking air into my body and breathing it back
+
+[2:35] out again. Yeah, now, yeah. So, but Stas, you know, like, inside jokes. You guys gotta quit with the inside jokes. These people are listening on the internet. I just said, I'm so glad he made it through the demos. No, no, no, no. liar. Anyone who knows you knows you're a liar. It was a dig. It was a dig, dig. Anyway, what was the subject of the demos? Uh, heat. What about that? Anything like related to what? He used the stairs all, did a full steak in 10 minutes by turning it every 30 seconds. Uh, there was a Putinesca pasta making demo and something else. Do you do that just so we could say Pututo in front of the students? Yeah, he had to explain what it where it came from. Yes, it's pasta like a who might make and eat. Yes. Pasta in the variety of a hula. I think that's it's literally what it is, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's the one time I get to use that accent legit, legit. Jack, how you doing? Oh I'm good. Yeah, why don't you tell us what's been up with the Heritage Radio Network during the hiatus? Just hard at work making a new website here. I know, but you got to tell them about the tweeting in. They can tweet in live now in case they. so many things. So next week it's going to launch and we'll announce all the cool features, but there'll be a little chat room in the live player. The website itself is completely overhauled and just it's a pleasant experience, this new website. But if you're in Brooklyn or New York. We're having a big, big party next Monday, the 21st from 5 to 10 PM at Roberta's to celebrate the new website launch. It's free, free 99. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Free? What do I get free? You get to come into the party. What's in the party? It's the back garden of Roberta's. So there's DJs. Drinks are $20 the pop. Drinks are $37 per beer. Wow. That's how we make up the difference. Wait, wait, wait. So you're saying you get in for free, but you pay for beers, but they're not $37. They're not $37. No, we're actually asking a suggested donation, which is 10 bucks, and that'll get you a 6 point beer and a shot of tequila. Nice. Wow. And I'm old enough to actually pay the suggested admission as opposed to being that guy who's like, I suggest nothing. Exactly. You know what I mean? You don't want to be that dude. Yeah, yeah. You know what? I'm almost like, I had to be... I never actually had the cojones to go and do that like at
+
+[5:00] the at the Met. So I would always just walk outside for half an hour looking down at the ground to find someone who would drop their button on the way out to
+
+[5:08] go there. So I wouldn't have to be like, I don't pay nothing. You know what I mean? Because then, you know, because then, the look, you ever, then look. Oh, they give you the look, yeah. You've seen the look? As a museum person myself, which we'll get to in a minute. you know, I know the look. I'm familiar with it. It's not a good look. Not a good look. So next week, I guess not this week, next week, here's what you can do. Let's say you're one of these people who's listening to the broadcast here and you happen to be listening, well, it's live, but you can't call in. I don't know, maybe you're at work, maybe you're goofing off, you can't call, whatever. Elliot. Uh, not calling you out, but, uh, you know, you can tweet your stuff in and we can respond to it live on the air, right?
+
+[5:46] Right, Jack? And Jack will be monitoring it. Yep, right? Uh, or some combination of uh, uh, Jack uh, Stasia. That's like the combination of YouTube. So I'm going to have to match that up to Jack Stasia. We'll look, and then we can interact without you having to necessarily call it. Although, please, still call in if you can. Yes. And keep it to one question for a call. Wow, yeah, see, Jack's the hammer. We really should just mash you 2 together. You'd be like superhero if there was like a combination like Jack Stacia. What do you think? It's the jackhammer. Oh, my God. Oh, so strong. Oh my goodness. I was so strong. So strong. All right. Well, to, you know, I have so much, like the thing is, is like, I'll tell you what, we'll answer some questions and then we'll go back to like, because we've done so much in the
+
+[6:33] month that you guys have been gone. But the thing that to discuss 1st is I have with me. Oh, by the way, calling your questions to a 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Here for the next, I don't know, half hour or so. Uh, got with me Peter Kim. Peter Kim, everyone. You got the fake clap laugh, clap track. Oh, Peter Kim from the museum of food and drink. What are you now, the executive director? Yeah, something like that. The title changes every week. was the Galactic Emperor before. Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we don't yet have a fully operational battle station. Fully operational battle station. So we can't, you can't be the... I wish we had that much money, but why don't you tell them what's going on? Exciting, uh, exciting news in the world of the Museum of Food and Drink. Well, we are about to have a fully operational museum gallery. This is something, obviously, we've been really looking forward to doing since we started working on MoFed, really in earnest, I guess. Well, you started really 4 years ago. getting a space finally, to be able to put on our 1st brick and mortar exhibition. And so, yeah, I mean, you guys might have seen the news in the New York Times last week, but
+
+[7:46] we're opening October 28th. We've got a 5000 square foot converted warehouse in Williamsburg and doing an exhibition on the flavor industry, which is, you know,
+
+[7:57] a pretty crazy story to tell. It's something where, you know, I've been surprised actually getting to know it. Uh, you know, these these flavorists, they really, um, pretty much every time you're eating, uh,
+
+[8:08] there's there's something that they've done to tweak your food, and it's a $25 billion industry, but nobody really ever stops to think about that. But think about, like, the thing I like to think about is like, it's $2500000000 is a drop in the bucket. If you think, I mean, think about what percentage of, like, what percentage of the foods that we eat have some sort of what we call like flavoring
+
+[8:27] system. You know what I mean? Hey, guys, can you crumple more paper next to the phone, please? Like, what things have a... I was joking. I have like a flavor system in them, right? It could be our patient caller who's waiting task. Oh, really? All right. We talk about the flavored industry in a second. Call her, you are on the air. Hi, Dave, congrats on the museum. This one's great Oh, thanks. I have a question. I know that I think I've heard you say that you used to be pretty into home brewing. Oh, yeah. Well, a while, like, a long while ago before, so Dax, my youngest son is 10
+
+[8:56] now, and I stopped the minute he was born because, you know, like the mess was just so intense that, um, you know, I was getting in, it would not have been good. Yeah, so, I mean, I'm just kind of turned out myself. So I was just wondering like what kind of stuff you were into and if you have any kind of, you know, New York City apartments type tips or anything. Yeah, okay. So let me ask you this. What methods do you have like, what's your stove like? Um, crappy foreboarder. Okay. Like the like the wimp, like standard wimpy New York City, like been there for like 40 years, gas burner?
+
+[9:33] Like 67 years, but yeah. No, well, you might get lucky. If you get old enough, you might get lucky, but probably not. Okay, so your 1st issue is going to be, it's going to take a while to get the, the, the, you know, the, the work down to where you want it to be. So I would, I mean, what I did was I limited myself to 5 gallon kind of batches, right? I did all grain because, I mean, please, I did all grain. You know what I mean? I started with corny kegs because I had a bunch of corny kegs around, which meant I actually did a batch, you know, a batch size smaller than five. I was doing like 4 or something like that. And, um, uh, you know, like most people, when they start, I was
+
+[10:14] interested, never really got past like super high OG. I wasn't like hyper bitter, but I was like pretty high OG, like very carbonated stuff that I
+
+[10:24] forced carbonated afterwards. Um, you know, I pretty much was able to use. The only thing that I had to get that I didn't have at the time was the mill. the, you know, to do the, uh, to, you know, coarsely uh, grind up the, um, the grains because I had already a turkey fryer, right? Even though you can't use that in a city. Those pots. I know there's people who hate aluminum, whatever, you know, whatever. If you're one of those people that don't use it, you know, don't ask me. you ask me. So I'm telling you, I use the giant, like, aluminum turkey fryer pots, and those suckers hold. I got to remember, I got to look back. I think they hold roughly 6 gallons. So you can you can put a good amount in and still, you know, boil down a bit. You're going to need uh, I'm assuming you're gonna, you're not investing in any like recirculated mash stuff right away, so you're probably
+
+[11:15] right? No, but actually, I don't know. I do have a circulator, so is there any way not to completely ruin it? Or um, just kind of like holding a temperature for a mash with that. You know, it's been so long since, uh, it's been so long since, uh, since I've done it that, uh, you know, I didn't have a circulator at the
+
+[11:35] time. I considered starting up again when I did have a circulator. I was looking at doing a recirculated match even before they had circulators, but I just never, I never got into it. I was just doing stuff based on the old, you know, choose your strike temperature and then, you know, bring it up and then you can, you know, adjust the temperature by, you know,
+
+[11:52] uh, in it got cooler. I did the old traditional kind of got cooler, you know, 5 gallon got cooler one. I don't know if they still call it that. You know, the big 5 gallon igloos that everyone uses. Yeah, that's what I used. That's the other thing I had to buy. You know, I don't know what the issue, because it's been so long since I've researched it on kind of what the effects of like positive or negative of having that much oxygen flow
+
+[12:20] through, if you're going to use a circulator to get it going, you know, whereas the old systems,
+
+[12:24] I just don't know. I just don't know. I mean, maybe it'd be good, maybe it'd be bad. It's been, I haven't even, like, I haven't even put the flow chart of how to do it in my mind as something I planned on doing in years and
+
+[12:35] years. You know what I mean? Like 10 years. Um, but I would definitely start, um, I would definitely start with the, the good old-fashioned, uh, got cooler, uh, technique. Uh, corny kegs are a good place to start because uh, it's easy to get the stuff in and out of them, although, uh, I had to cheat. I opened it up and cut the tubing down so that I could rack better. You know what I mean? Or just buy a carboy. I just didn't have, I didn't have a lot of room in my apartment. You know, corny kegs are very, like, uh, space uh, efficient. You know what I mean? Because they're relatively thin. They're tall, but they're relatively thin and they fit in my cabinets. And so, like, I could do everything in a corny cake, although I know most people are gonna think I'm a jerk for doing my primary in a corny cake. I never tried doing the primary in 5 gallon buckets. I know a lot of people enjoy the bucket fermentation. I've never, I just never done it. But the good thing about the corny was I had 2 cornies, one from my primary. And then I would rack over into the other guy and then I would force carbonate that guy and it was on tap right away from the get go. So I never bottled. I just kept a sucker on tap. You know what I mean? And I wasn't taking it anywhere. I was just drinking it in my house. And so that was a good kind of a, a solution. I mean, I don't know. Is that just helpful or no? Yeah, absolutely. I was just kind of interested in hearing your background with it more than anything. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I don't know if you're like me, you're
+
+[14:01] going to want to go, obviously you're going to want to go all grain because otherwise, why would you do it? You going to want to control as many of the aspects as you can. If I had stayed. Yeah, I'm already there. Yeah, if I had stayed in it, even another 6 months, I would have attempted to malt. You know what I mean? And probably another 6 months after that, I think before I would have attacked the recirculating mash, I would have attacked the malt. And then probably after the malt, I would attack the mash. And then I would, but the problem is you only have your apartment space. Everything has to pack away. Everything has to be closet friendly. Can you, there used to be an outfit out of Ohio that made really nice fermenters out of Sankey
+
+[14:38] kegs. And like they made things that you could kind of repurpose as fermenters and boiling things. And like that was kind of the next step up, and that's what I would have done if I'd stayed in it for another like year, year and a half because they can kind of fit in a closet.
+
+[14:51] You have to throw a bunch of stuff away and mash all of your, like get rid of all of your stuff so you
+
+[14:55] can put it in a club. Oh, the other thing I did. I put a temperature control on it. I, uh, I put my cold water system, uh, through a solenoid with a temperature control so that I could control the temperature of the fermentation, assuming that I wanted to drop it low because my house was always above kind of the ideal temperature at that
+
+[15:12] time, even for the uh, ALE strains that I was using. So anyway, there you have it. Hope that's helpful. Yeah, cool. All right, so Peter, back on the, you want to get, want to, 1st of all, give a, you want to give a shout out to some of the people to help with the museum, yeah. Yeah, hold on. But you're actually, you usually give this shout out, really. Well, no, you're here. the museum. They give the sh give the shout out. Give me the give me the... Well, why don't you give me my phone that had the... No, that was actually the wrong list. Those are people who didn't want this out. Who said they didn't want to be mentioned. This is a list. That's why they're in red. Below the red, below the red. So, so just so you know, like, I was about to give a shout out specifically only to those
+
+[15:54] people who asked to not be conventioned. Yeah, yeah, nice. She's just trying to throw monkey rent and things. Yeah, so we're just going to give to the to the yes. Now, these are people that have helped us in various ways. Yes. Yeah. So, uh, Bill and Mada. I mean, super thanks to Bill. He's actually on our board now. You want it to say a little bit? Yeah, Bill's awesome. He runs IW group. It's advertising from focuses on minority demographics. Awesome guy. Good man. You got me into the vice President Biden's house. So I'll take that. And Peter, like, who is like, you know, the joke master general made a box of cereal with Biden's face on it called Cheery Joe's.
+
+[16:34] Yeah, he liked that. Yeah. I'm sure he, did he, did he give you a bear hug? Did he squeeze the life out of you while he was holding? Tell me those pearly whites. Yeah, yeah, nice, nice. Harold McGee. You guys, anyone who listens to the show doesn't know Harold McGee, just go look it up. Just like drop, turn off the thing, go on the other section of the internet and look up Harold McGee. He's been helping us out a lot with kind of ideas and just, you know, general plus. Also goes by MCG. That his stage name. Uh, yep. Yeah. Sarah Marsh. Yeah? I'm going to bring these people out. describe what's going on. Also, I made some, you know, great supporter. Yep, Sam Tigan. Yeah, he hooked us up with some great fabricators too and he's been, yeah, awesome. Yeah, Ryan, whose last name, I can't pronounce, so he goes by like Mr. Lion, Dandelion, but I'm going to give it a shot.
+
+[17:21] Uh, Cheti Yarwar Donna. Man yeah. Bartender, well known. Romy Freelan. Yep, also a great supporter. Yep. Pedro Mendes. Yep, Pedro's coming from Texas. Right? John Cooper. Yeah, John's an Australian, uh, yeah, awesome, awesome guy. Yeah, Jen Beeler. Yep. Old friend from law school. Jenny Wang and the modernist pantry crew. Yeah, you know that, you know that whole crew? We bought a bunch of stuff for our tastings from them. We used to be affiliated here at the radio program. monitorspantry.com. don't like us no more. I don't know. I guess they still like us. Jack, did they not like us anymore? I can't answer that. Wow. Wow. I like them. Me too. modernestpantry.com. Remember we used to get to say that all the time? Yeah, it was great. Anyway, thanks to all those people for supporting MoFad. Yeah, means a lot to us. It's a project that we're all really passive. Yeah, but why don't we tell these people who may or may not, like, know what the hell we're talking about what the project is? Yeah, so we're opening the world's 1st large scale museum. They'll have exhibits. You can eat. called the museum of food and drink. It's a project that Dave's been working on for over 10 years, me about 4 years, and it's something that we think really needs to happen. And we're actually now at an extremely important moment where we're about to open up our 1st 5000 square foot space in Williamsburg
+
+[18:35] in about a little over a month. And we have a pretty awesome exhibition planned. The flavor industry is going to involve tastings and smellings and, you know, Dave's putting together some pretty cool exhibits for that. Yeah, Peter, this part they already heard. You gotta get to the new stuff. Remember we had a couple right in the middle. The new stuff is what they're going to see when they get there. So for instance, we're gonna we're gonna have Stas is like, what the hell? So they, uh, I, I, like, I'm just imagining your face stars. How far are your shoulders crammed up into your ears now? What? What? Right? You're giving them a big shrug. Her shoulders are above her head, right? Yeah, yeah. her head is like, you know, on the floor compared to where her shoulders. Oh my god, Peter, she's giving she given the fingers. Not the finger, like the middle finger, the, the, the, you know, the thumb against the, the thumb against the rest of the finger. There's only the slight headstake horizontally. Yeah, the lower lip pushed up. You know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Yeah. So anyways. So the point being that what are you going to see when you get there? You're going to see, well, we're allowed to say some of it, right? Yes, some, but you got to keep it a little vague. The New York Times really wants to have the. Oh my god. You know what? People, this is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Backlook. back in the day, right? It used to be the, you know, like, well, if the New Yorker is writing about it, we don't want to write about it anymore. But like, like, seriously, like, like, isn't, you know, most of the drivers we have now, is
+
+[19:58] it real, whatever. I not going to get into it. The rules are the rules, people, and we can't talk, but I'll let you know this. We went to Monell a while ago and saw that this device they had called an olfactometer, and an olfactometer, it was a really stupid name because it doesn't actually meter anything. It's not a meter of any type. What it is, is it's a device that delivers sense. And so, you know, we knew that we needed to, because we were doing it the flavor industry here in the history of the flavor industry. And so we knew we had to do something where we delivered a sense in a way
+
+[20:28] that were, you know, very interactive, but we didn't really know kind of whether these basic ideas that we wanted to do were
+
+[20:34] feasible. So we went and saw it and saw when they'd warped up. And so now I'm building a bunch of these in my house, which is what I'm spending most of my time doing
+
+[20:41] now is building these tubas. Well, I call them stink tubas. We won't call them that the exhibition because that's kind of gross. kind of grown on me. Stink tuba? Because it should be like boom, boom, boom, boom, of smell. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, there's going to be uh, Peter has learned how to make uh, tablets. well, my god. If we were on any sort of like watch list, we were totally on it now. We have tabletting machines. Yeah, powders galore and the stink removers. Oh my god. Yeah, we have like all we have like we've been buying so much stuff that could get us on a DEA or any sort of like terror watch list for this
+
+[21:18] exhibition. But it's going to be good. Family friendly exhibition, folks. Yeah. little preview. The reason the flavor industry is interesting is we're only the exhibition itself is only going to be about, what, 1,800 square feet or something like that? Yeah, 2000 square feet. So we needed to choose something that we could do in a fairly small amount of space that address something important to the museum. Everything the museum deals with is going to be not just science, which I'm interested in, but history, culture,
+
+[21:46] economics, yeah. you know, the environment to certain extent. And so, um, the kind of rise of the flavor industry over the last 100 years
+
+[21:58] is an historical fact, it was really predicated on this one simple idea that, uh, molecules, that molecules are food, uh, you know, are flavors and
+
+[22:07] tastes, uh, and that a flavor and taste is really nothing but a specific uh, molecule.
+
+[22:13] Now how it's presented to you is different, right? But really, you know, there's kind of this correspondence between them and that kind of unhinging of flavors and aromas and tastes from the actual substrate of the
+
+[22:26] food is kind of what allowed the flavor industry to rise and become a dominant force in our kind
+
+[22:31] of in our food now for, you know, for good or for ill. And so, you know, we're not, you know, it's not an expose. more just an explanation of kind of how this came to be, how it works,
+
+[22:42] how you know, how your sensory equipment works, and we're going to highlight a couple of, you know, interesting historical examples, you know, MSG. And we're not going to go super rant on MSG the way that I would if we were doing it on this on the radio program. Right? Yeah, but we're still going to clear up, you know, uh, debunk some of the stuff that has, uh, you know, some of
+
+[23:02] the the, more uh, the, the whacker claims around MSG for lack of better words. Yeah, you're going to spray some, you're going to spray some scientific febris all over all over that. But the, uh, also, um, uh, vanilla. Vanilla is super interesting because it was one of the early flavors that was synthesized and
+
+[23:22] has a very interesting kind of economic history. So look for that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Oh, go to. So yeah, if you want to learn more about the exhibition and about the space we're opening up in October,
+
+[23:34] lab.mofad.org, that's lab.mofad.org. Our ticket pre-sale is going to start September 28. So yeah, you should go on our mailing list, if you're not on it already. you'll get the announcement. No, yeah. Okay, listen, so I haven't, like, the entire season of my garden and everything is, we totally missed. I don't even know what I've talked about and what I haven't. But I have this interesting spice. I know you've tasted it before, but you tasted it again, Jack, you want to taste this spice? I absolutely do. All right. So I can't actually use this one's dried. I can't use this at the bar because it's not you know, grass. It's not generally recognized as safe just because it's not part of the list, but it has been used for a long time. So this comes off of a tree in my backyard called Lindera benzoin, the spice bush, that's actually extremely common, and it
+
+[24:17] was, the settlers used this bush to kind of determine whether or not you had, if the bush grew there, they knew that your ground was fruitful,
+
+[24:23] right? So let's taste this there. Chew on it. It kind of looks like a poop pellet, by the way. It does. Oh, it is a poop pellet. No, but it has like a flavor of like kind of pink peppercorn. Yeah, pink peppercorn, exactly. And like a little bit of a juniper, kind of a resinacy note to it. Isn't that fantastic? I love it. isn't that amazing? is amazing. Crab grows in my backyard. You know what? I was worried that it was going to be all fibrous. No, it's delicious, right? I'm look, like, unfortunately, I'm not there this week, and I hope I picked like a small amount. I'm going to go back and try to pick a whole ziploc bag. My garden is full of it, and if, you know, I'm going to try to get as much as I can and keep it. I mean, but I could go sweet, I could go savory. It like a pink peppercorn. It could go sweet, it could go savory. Yeah, really good. Lendera bands win. And so, you know, so what I do is, is, and, you know, I just look around, like, what do we got? You know what I mean? Another one I was kind of lucky. Like, so we had these things called, uh, uh, called uh, May Apples, which is an American kind of mandrake, and uh, poisonous. poisonous. But, but cool leaves, cool leaves, but poisonous. leaves, poisonous, roots, poisonous, unripe fruit, poisonous. But I've been waiting for these things to ripen up. I had all these fruits, right? And I was like, man, not quite ready to pick. I leave for a week. I come back, the deer ate them all. All, all, all. So I go through all these like things. Oh, except for three. I found 3 ones that were too crappy for the deer even to bother with. And I picked them off. And I swear to God, I am glad the deer ate them all because if they were even mildly poisonous, I would be dead right now because of how many I would have eaten.
+
+[26:03] I would have eaten so many. It's unclear whether the seeds are poisonous, but the pope is like, because you know what the thing is, is that most temperate fruits, right? Most, and, you know, I'm here in New York. on Connecticut, temperate land, right? Most temperate fruits have that kind of temperate fruity flavor, you know? You got your apples, you got your pears, you know, you got your cherries, which I can't have, bastards, you got your plums, you got most of these things
+
+[26:27] like they like none of them taste tropical. Do you know what I'm saying when I say that? There's a tropical flavor, yeah. Yeah, these taste tropical. Whoa, nice. Yeah, these taste like, uh, they have a bit of that, you know, like the real, like, fruity tropical sour guavas, those little guys. Like they have like some of that going, but they're just tastes amazingly tropical. I would have eaten myself to death on those. Are you saying that you're generally more of a fan of tropical fruits over temperate fruits? No, I love I love boats. It's just you're not used to having a local fruit that in in my area that has that kind of tropical note to it. And so when you did, you would just gorge until you died. you know? I wonder what the tropical note is, right? I mean, I'm sure that somebody in the flavor industry could help us out with it. what is, you know what I mean? Like what's the common thread between a papaya, banana, a mango, guava? I mean, like, obviously we have, like, a sort of understanding that those fruits come from the same region or, you know, at least the, you know, the same band around the world, but... Right, but they're in widely
+
+[27:23] variant. Yeah. Why, why, why? What is it about them that there's like, you feel like there should be a common thread between all those
+
+[27:29] food? Hey, let's sit on that for 12nd, take a very, very short break and come right back. Alrighty.
+
+[27:41] Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with Fairway Markets, White Leghorn, Red Wattle,
+
+[27:48] Bourbon Red, Navajo Churro. Wow, these aren't names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today, but before the rise of factory
+
+[27:57] farming, you would have. And at Heritage Foods USA, you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity. Small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmer is to buy from them, and heritage foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers, artisanal
+
+[28:20] producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system, and to biodiversity. The meat we celebrate, whether it's heritage turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork, or Navajo churro lamb chops is the righteous kind, from healthy animals, of sound genetics that have been treated
+
+[28:38] humanely, and allowed to pursue their natural instincts. It's a simple fact, animals raised according to this philosophy taste better. And as we like to say, you have to eat them to save them. visit us in heritagefoodsusa.com for more information. Here's what Heritage Radio Network would sound like without donations. It's not as good as the show you were just listening to, is it? Give us a few bucks. Help keep us running. HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Click the donate tab on the top right corner. Yeah, and for every donation you send, Steve Jenkins will shoot a Navajo churro in the face. in order to save it. Oh, boy. Ah yeah. Stas, you love that one. Stas love. I love it. Love it. Hey, people, you know, like Soupy Sales got fired for saying stuff like that. We won't actually shoot a another true in the face for every time you donate. you know what I'm saying? Not in the face, at least. Well, so if you want to save it, you know, sometimes you got to do the hard thing, Jack. Just save it. All right. Okay, let's get to some let's get to some write-in since it's been quite a while. 10 minute warning right here. Oh, geez, Louise. Well, you know. Okay. I'll get to some MDF first. Hey, Dave, Anastasia and the team. I have a question about making Biltong curing box, a built-on curing box out of MDF Biltong. You know what Biltong is, yeah? Nope. Zzefrickan, like, dried meat. like a jerky. No, nice. Supposedly it's great. I've never had reel. I've had I've had the fake. As they say, gankers can get the fake. You can get the reel from the Biltong man. But I like, I've never had the real one, unfortunately. Anyways, uh, so it's a box to make this dried uh, dried South African meat in. I have a question about making a built-on curing box out of MDF. I just started, by the way, well, the whole question is about the MDF. MDF stands for medium density fiber board. You familiar with that? Yeah, okay. I just started drawing up plans to make a large cabinet out of MDF when a couple of scare mongers, scare mongers. Started waving their arms at me about formaldehyde, degassing from the MDF and poisoning the meat. I looked into the particular wood I will be using and it has a formaldehyde rating of E0, which is the lowest. My question is, have the scare mongers fooled me, or should I actually consider changing construction materials? This all sounds a bit crazy to me because if you Google image search built on box, It sounds like it's going to be something like not like safe for work, right? Little tongue box. 99% of them are made out of unsealed MDF, and two, most modern food pantries are made out of MDF, and often have food sitting in them for weeks slash months on end. think potatoes, onions, pumpkins. And I've never heard of this being an issue. The biltong box will be at a max temperature of 35 degrees Celsius, and the meat there will be
+
+[31:32] there for no longer than 6 days, 35 C. What is that? That's like a hundred? 35 C, it's like... 90s? Yeah. Yeah. I know it's not super, super hot because I know the Western desert lives in breeze at 45 degrees. I think of like 40 and up is being extremely hot. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. The meat will be in there no longer than 6 days. Thanks for the awesome work you do. Keep it up, regard Rory Mearns. Okay, look, here's a couple of things. I think you're right. There's a low temperature. Most of the build-on boxes I've seen have a light bulb in the bottom to provide, you know, the relative heating. So built-on box. For those of you that Google it is basically a box that you put to hang the meat in with a bunch of air vent holes
+
+[32:15] with like some stuff over it to stop flies and whatnot from getting in. And then a source to cause kind of convection and to keep it kind of relatively dry and
+
+[32:23] moving. And that convective source is usually a light bulb that they put in the bottom.
+
+[32:27] So the question is, is whether or not locally the MDF can heat up over that where the light bulb is and start producing
+
+[32:34] some nastiness. You know, I wouldn't worry about it too much if you can't smell it, but I will say this. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, MDF. I hate MDF. MDF is the worst. I freaking hate it. I hate picking it up. I hate buying it. I hate cutting it. I hate it. I hate it so much. Here's some other things. Here's some things some good things about MDF. Sucker's cheap. Yeah, for prototyping. Yeah, yeah. It cuts well, right? It glues and staples well, right? It's relatively uniform. Here's what sucks. Sucks. Suckity sucks about MDF. It is heavy as a mother. Even the lighter MDF is heavy as a mother. Secondly, MDF chips on the edges, right? Thirdly, if you try to screw into the edge of MDF later for whatever reason, you're screwed, because it's going to rip out. Third, should you rip out MDF, you have to put a bunch of, you know, stuff on it to get a screw to hold it again because it's not going to hold again because it's MDF. Fourth. God forbid if you have unsealed MDF and you get water on the edge of it because it's going to soak up that water like a freaking sponge and flare out like a lunatic third.
+
+[33:40] If it's big, it's going to bow over time because the sucker doesn't hold its dimensions. I just hate it. I hate everything about it. I mean, it is cheaper, right? But I just detest it. I just, I just think it's an execrable, nasty thing unless you're going to paint it. It holds paint really, really well. You know what I mean? And, you know, I had my last cabinets at my last apartment made out of the particle board, and I screamed and yelled, and I was going to pay the upcharge for
+
+[34:07] the Baltic just because I hate this stuff so much, and we didn't, and I regretted it for
+
+[34:13] years because after a while, this stuff sags. It just doesn't hold its dimensions the way real plywood does. I just d... test it. I think you're probably safe, especially at those low temperatures. Wait, so how do you feel about MDF, Dave? Love it. Yeah, I'm unclear. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't I wasn't clear enough on my feelings. Uh, yeah. Anyways. Okay. Oh my god, what am I going to get to? Okay, I was trying, uh, this is from, uh, uh, Liz Myers or Lazi. Laz Myers. Lazer. I was trying to make an Agar fluid gel out of maple syrup because I love the flavor of maple syrup, but
+
+[34:48] find it's consistency is too liquid. I want the good flavor of real maple syrup with the texture of fake maple syrup.
+
+[34:55] I tried to set the syrup by boiling and adding 2% agar. It kind of set into a stickyish, jellyish thing, and that was okay, but the texture of the syrup got a little
+
+[35:05] crystallized E. I was wondering if there was a better way to do this or why the maple syrup crystallized. Well, 1st of all, maple syrup is 66% sugar by weight, right? So it's a lot, like a lot of it, a lot of it is sugar. And if you add basically anything other than liquid to it, If you remove any liquid from it at all, it's going to start crystallizing because you've taken the water away from the sugar, right? So, you know, because 66 on the maple syrup is about the limit where you can not have crystallization. It's kind of, I guess, why they take it there. Honey can go a big, a good bit farther up because it's completely inverted. The sugar is completely inverted. Almost completely inverted. So, you know, so it doesn't crystallize as readily. So sugar, you can, I mean, honey, you can take up to a bricks of like 82. So what I would do, were IU, is I would make a thickener, like a very thick
+
+[36:05] thickener, and with pure water, and then just cut your maple syrup with that thickener slightly.
+
+[36:11] You know what I mean? And then what that'll do is, is it'll just thicken up
+
+[36:15] the water that you have, but it's not going to cause any kind of crystallization happened. The fake syrups are made with like sugar and I think if they think they use microcrystinal cellulose and stuff like that. The other thing you could do, if you want to set it solid as a rock without anything changing it, you could
+
+[36:32] probably, you want to make, and you want to use Agar. You'll still have to dilute it. But what you'll do is you'll hydrate the agar in pure water, and then you'll add the maple syrup to it, making sure that the temperature of the maple syrup is above about 100
+
+[36:45] degrees. And then as the temperature drops, it will form a solid. The other thing you could do is you could make a poorly, you could do a poorly set pectin, especially because you're not using acid, you can use one of the pectins that can set without the presence of
+
+[37:00] acid, and you could probably do some amount of thickening that way. A bunch of different things, but straight Agar isn't going to help you out, right? Is that good answer? How much more time I got, Jackity Jack? A few minutes here. All right, listen. Two, jeez, Helen, I'm going to get to your chickpeas on the next week. Okay. I do catering. This is from Noya. I do catering for bar and bot mitzvahs. I'd like to boil large quantities of fries at a time with the temperature staying below 80 Celsius. I don't know why you necessarily want the temperature to stay below 80 Celsius unless you're trying to do that starch kind of set trick that
+
+[37:34] Steingarten does with mashed potatoes. Some people do it for fries too, but anyway, thus far I come up with hotel pans over burners or I could buy a stockpot induction stove. There must be a better way. Please help. Noya. Yes, well, there is a better way, actually. There's several. I mean, if you don't want to just get a giant pot. First of all, do you have a deep fryer? I have a deep fryer. So what I do is before I, well, of course you do. You're making fried fries, right? So, like, if you have a, I mean, if you have a, if you're going to do a lot of them, you probably have a real fryer. So what I do is at the end of the night, when you filter the fryer oil out, your fryer's empty now, right? Right? Yeah. Okay. So what you do is, is you use your fryer as the boil kettle for
+
+[38:13] the for the potatoes. Boom. So what I always do is I put my water in. I then salt and I boil up all the potatoes in batches in that, spread them out on the racks to dry out or do whatever else I'm going to do. Then when I'm done, I drain out the water, then clean all the salt and water back
+
+[38:32] out, and then it's ready to fry, ready for the 1st fry by the time it's coming. Super, super convenient. fryers are super fast to heat up. They heat up in like 5 minutes. They're freaking awesome. That's one good way to do it. If you have if you're doing catering and you have a combi oven, you can just throw them out on racks and steam them in a combi, especially if you have a
+
+[38:50] combi, if you really want to stay below 80, you can, because you can set it at 100% humidity with lower than 212 and you can do them in a combi, I've done that with a lot of
+
+[38:59] success. Um, Anyway, but you're going to have to pre-salt. If you're going to do that, you have to like soak them in salt before in our salt them or something because you're not going to get the salt penetration that way, but both of those things may or may not work.
+
+[39:11] Let us know. And so I think Jack's going to rip me off of the freaking air in a second. So I still have to get to Helen's chickpea question, and I still have to get to Ken, Ken, who writes in on the definition of the sandwich, right? But I will give you this one. I'll give you one paragraph of that on the way out folks. And remember to tune in next week. We are going to be live again with cooking issues. And he goes, I listen to the discussion. This is Ken. I listened to discussion on the definition of sandwich, and I now feel strongly that someone ought to tell my mom that she did not waste her
+
+[39:46] money, or I did not waste my time majoring in philosophy. Nice. All right. Cooking issues.
+
+[40:01] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[40:11] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit to donate and become a member. visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:06] Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods, USA.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Here's Dave Arnold, your host for cooking. She's coming to you live, but on a telephone, somewhere in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network. My train went out of service. So we're doing a, uh, does you there? I'm here. Yeah, we're doing a, do you remember that video or uh, uh, that Bruce Springsteen did for the uh, streets of Philadelphia? Yeah, like Street Superior. Have you heard of walking around doing that? You're like now. Only Philadelphia doesn't have an elevated railway that's going to drown out any noise that I can make. Like how much background noise is there for real? Just a little bit of wind. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, my big old iPhone 6 Plus is like, you know, it's like a billboard. So, you know, it's trying to shield me from the wind. I try to get off the main drag here, maybe be a little quieter. All right. So, Stas, we're going to have to do a little bit not what we normally do. You can still call your questions at two, 718-4972128. 718-497-2128. How you doing over there, Jack? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yeah, we have the chat room too. So I'm able to actually communicate with people directly. Nice. And uh, and by the way, you want to tell everyone, well, uh, we're walking to today is the beginning of the live, the live tweet us on madness, at least for cooking issues, even live for a couple of days in general, but you want to explain how
+
+[1:54] that, how that crud works. Yeah, I think if you're tuning in live right now, you can see the chat room. I've got a bunch of people in here now chatting with me. They say that the L Train is the enemy of quality, but they... wasn't the L. Yeah. It was what? Yeah, I was on the JMZ line. Wherever they call that thing now. The LA is the enemy equality. It's just, it was one of those things where like the train had a problem. And so, Stas, anyone who lives in New York is familiar with this. The trains already extremely late and it stopped all the other trains from going, but they don't take out
+
+[2:25] of service as soon as they have a problem. Instead, they make the train, be 15 minutes late, and then they pull it out of service so that you're a half hour late. You know what I mean? My favorite, my favorite people. Uh, which is why uh, Emmanuel Kant never went more than 2 miles away from his house. This is why he never visited the mountains, you know why? He went on a carriage ride. You're the famous philosopher. I mean, by the way, like, a complete nutbag and a
+
+[2:52] weirdo, but, uh, he, this is what people read, people read these people's, uh, work
+
+[2:56] today, and they're like, you know, they, they never take the time to realize that these people were freaking lunatics. So he takes a carriage ride one day, and there's a problem with the carriage. Like, the, uh, you know, the actual breaks or something, I forget exactly what happened. And he is late for an appointment. So he jots down in his book. Don't take care of rides. They might make you wait for appointments. And so the guy never like left within a couple of miles of his house. freaking weirdo, and yet people for 100s of years are like, this is the person I should base, like how, you know, what I, what I think about thought on, a freaking,
+
+[3:28] like, clear loony band? You know what I'm saying? Anyways, uh, I don't want to get any. don't want to get any hate down from philosopher people, but he's, I never really enjoyed reading Kant. You guys ever have to read that stuff? No, what was his big point? Well, it's kind of a big dent, like, uh, uh, well, it's a big dent kind of school of thought. We'll get into it. We get into some of that. We should probably get some questions. Oh, before we do that, um, there's something else that we had to talk about. No, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, okay, so Stas, uh, you got the questions booked or no? No. Well, get the questions up. Remember back when I said you're gonna read the questions? No, you never send that. I did. Remember, I said we're going to do it differently today. Nastasia's going to read. Oh, you were listening. Jack, do you have the does anyone have the questions up? There was a question on... What? There was a question on Mastiha, Mastika there. Uh, but I can't look at it because the only instrument that I would have to look at the question is currently against my
+
+[4:31] ear as I'm uh, talking. I do have a question from Josh Weinstein about enzyme soak. Yeah, he says in episode 112, Dave said he now prefers a half inch
+
+[4:43] fry. The enzyme soak was originally 25C one hour. What time and temperature does Dave Arnold now use for his enzyme soak? Same. The reason I liked the bigger fry is because, okay, it's the same basic
+
+[5:01] procedure with the exception that the larger fry might actually require some dry time, whereas the thinner fries didn't require a lot of
+
+[5:11] drying. Remember, French fry, like good French fry, uh, work is all about, um, managing with here, right? So you have, the main problem with uh, French fries is either, there's too much moisture in the center and you haven't developed a good enough crust. And if you haven't developed a good enough crust. They go soggy. Conversely, if you focus all of our energy on a super good crust, Uh, you can create what we call the hollow fry. So it's like super crunchy on the outside, the hollow in the middle. So what you want to do, it's very difficult balancing act, and the enzyme soak is one of the things you can do to, um, kind of skew that balancing act in your favor. Now, because we've, in, you know, my opinion, gotten, um, successful enough, uh, with the
+
+[5:56] French fry recipe, that you could have both a good exterior and interior. I then wanted to up the amount of interior that was there because the whole French fry was enjoyable, right? Whereas if really all you can do is make a good crust and anything on the interior just messing up your
+
+[6:11] fry. Well, then you go thinner, right? Which is why people make those shoestring fries, which by the way, I don't like. I mean, I like them. I don't like them. You guys like shoe sweet fries? No, I don't mind them. You don't mind about it. you like let me ask you a question. Yeah, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. They're either gonna usually poorly done shoestream fries or either greasy or just like fried crunchies.
+
+[6:34] No, no, I'm not insulting a fried crunchy, by the way. I like a fried crunchy. But, um, anyways, so I think in general, uh, the larger fries are also technically more, uh, interesting to tackle. Uh, I don't like the giant giant fries though, like those giant like, I don't like those giant fries. you guys like those? No, I'm not really a fan of them. So the answer is uh, the same, but you might need a little dry
+
+[7:01] time, uh, to get a little more moisture out than you would if you were using a, uh, 38 uh, inch fry. Was that a good answer? Did I answer that? think you got it. This is an this is an easy one. I got from Joan Zuckerberg. Is there a culinary book which Dave Arnold would recommend above all others? Well, of course, you should buy liquid intelligence simply for its use of the coaster. I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. Um, you know, I buy, I like, huh, I don't buy books, um, because I'm going to use them for recipes usually. I usually buy books because I really, um, want to see somebody's point of view. Sometimes I'll get them for, uh you know, like a specific culture to learn about a specific culture. Um, so it's kind of tough. It's like if you ask me a particular area, then I'm like, oh, you got to get that book. If you're interested in sauces, like, even though it's, you know, very old at this point, you should go pick up a copy of
+
+[8:04] Peterson's sauce book because it was seminal. Now, would I say that's the 1st cookbook you should go buy? No, but if I was doing sauces. It's also a really interesting. I like old books because they're a window into, uh, somebody else's, uh, like a different, a different time, a different frames. So you look at those recipes in that book, for instance, and there's a lot of reduced cream
+
+[8:26] sauces because that was very involved in, and they can give you kind of a slice of what was happening at a particular time.
+
+[8:34] Take this style. like name a type of cookbook. I tell you what I like. Um, you like Harold McGee's? Yeah, yeah, I don't care. yeah okay. I mean, you gotta go buy on food and cooking. You need to own that. That's like saying, you know, do you breathe, you know, do you buy liquids? You know what I mean? like, I mean, like cookbooks, like, like, what style? Italian. Ooh, that's interesting. What do you like for Italian style? I don't. Oh, God. Do you love Italian food? I don't use I don't use the cookbook, no. You don't like to read cookbooks, right? Because you don't care what people think about things, right? Yeah. I used to really enjoy, uh, when I was starting to, you know, cook seriously, like, you know, 25, uh, or
+
+[9:20] so years ago, uh, Giuliano Bujali's books because he's such a nut on, uh, what he thinks about sending what he's
+
+[9:28] not. like classic like old school, northern, Italian, uh, where
+
+[9:33] like if it deviates even slightly from what he considers to be authentic. It's crap. And although I don't cook that way, I think it's kind of hilarious to like, to read a book that's written from that perspective. So, I like, ooh, the cement truck is coming by, the one that always tries to kill me on my bicycle. Are you walking toward here or are you? Yeah. I'm going to show up in the studio at some point. At which point I will be able to read the questions off of my phone. So I like his stuff for that. I really liked, I don't know whether it's still dated or anyone reads it. I liked cooking by hand, Bertoli's book, because it was the 1st book that I had that, you know, went through the
+
+[10:09] procedures, uh, pretty in depth for curing. This is way before the charcuterie book came out. Uh, it went through the production of, uh, falsanic vinegars. It went through a bunch of stuff. I thought it was a really good book. I don't know if people read it anymore. I mean, I like some of the old classics like uh, you know, the 1st uh, cookbook that someone bought me. Uh, to cook out of was uh, Julia Childs uh, way to cook, which I like. I like Jacques Pepin. We call him Jackie Peps, but I like Jacopin's, uh, he has a 2 volume color work that was put
+
+[10:42] out by, uh, knops back when they didn't know any better. It literally shows you how to skin a baby lamb. So, obviously, it went out of print very quickly because no American back in the, you know, late 70s or 80s, whatever it was,
+
+[10:55] uh, wanted to learn to skin a baby lamb. Um, I don't know. I really like old versions of Pella Brat, the ones with the weird crazy 60s photos. I really love the time life, uh, encyclopedia of, uh, foods of the of the world. I think that's an amazing reference. Anyway, I don't know. I could go on and on and I probably shouldn't. What's the next question? Ask your question, Jack. Oh, yeah, I was speaking of cookbooks, I tried to cook out of the Zahav cookbook, this Moroccan carrot recipe, and they wanted you to kind of cook the carrots in a pan with water, just covering the carrots for about 20 minutes, and then you take the carrots out of the
+
+[11:35] water, and they want you to reduce that carrot water into like a syrup.
+
+[11:39] And it's said to cook it for about 15 minutes more and it should turn into a syrup, but it never turned into a syrup. It just stayed like boiling water, you know, and it stayed the consistency. Okay, okay, okay. It's getting this year. So how do you slice the? First of all, like, what are we talking? the ratio carrot to water? About 6 carats in a saucepan just barely covered with water. So like, you know, the, you know, just covering the carrots, but 6 whole carrots. Yeah, large. How tall was the pan? What's that? How tall is the pan? It was probably, I don't know, 6 inches deep. Yeah, see, I'm looking at it. So, but it was one of those ones it's like roughly 6 by 6, so it was as tall as wide or taller than wide. Oh, no, it was definitely more wide than tall. Yeah, so you're adding probably more water than you would need to. Um, because you're probably not getting the packing density that you want to get
+
+[12:36] the, so you probably started out with a higher level of water, which in and of itself isn't going to give you problems, except for you probably have to reduce it much more
+
+[12:44] than, uh, than you think. So there's, there's a couple things that are going on. If it's reducing to a syrup, what that means is you've extracted stuff out of the carrots. So if your carrots aren't very flavorful. They're not very sweet. You're not going to have a lot of stuff to extract, and there you have it. So you should be able to taste the water at the end of boiling, and you'll know, you know, like this doesn't have much flavor, so I'm going to have to reduce the living hell out of it, right? So in that case, you know, you might have to reduce it. Also, it's impossible to say how many minutes you need to reduce something. Like, uh, if I was going to do this for a bar or or something, you would reduce it to a particular solid content, right? Like, that's how you make, like, uh, jellies, you know, you, you take things down to a certain bricks level, because you need a certain solid content to get the body. You need X percentage of sugar in the water. So, and once you get to, you know, so the difference between, like, something that's, uh, let me put it this way, 66% sugar by weight is maple syrup.
+
+[13:40] 82 is honey. Right? Uh, 50 uh, is 50% sugar even, still pours, uh, you know, almost like water. Do we already talk about whipped creams pouring like a waterfall? We already talked about pizza. CCA. Anyway, remember that song? Anyway, so, uh, it doesn't take that much less sugar in a product, all of a sudden make
+
+[14:01] it, um, much less, um, biscuit. Did it taste good or no? It tasted fine. Yeah, it was just kind of soupy, you know, it was very watery. All right, Bush, man, I'm at Boorum and McKibben. I want to go towards McKibben, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think that was probably your problem. So it tasted good, but it wasn't syrup, but you need to reduce it more. Look, they don't know how powerful your stove is. Like, how are you going to tell someone to reduce something for 15 minutes? You know what I'm saying? I don't know. Like, you know, maybe maybe I have a, in fact, I do have a stove as poorly regulated, and I could, I could boil a cow. know what I mean? Because that's how much energy comes out of my burners. You know what I'm saying? It's like almost like, it is like a wok burner. My regular stuff is like a wok burner. So if I crank that sucker, I can reduce it. Uh, you know, if I can reduce anything almost into it, the problem is you might scorch things. Whereas, you know, you might be in a situation where you have a low output stove, and it could take you twice as long easily to reduce it. So it really needs to be reduced on a consistency. Maybe you should have stuck with it longer. Or maybe you didn't cut your carrots small enough so you didn't get full extraction out. Is that possibility? No, I think more likely I should have just reduced it for longer. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yeah, because if you're doing a short cook. Also, how much is extract? I mean, if you cooked it per the recipe, then probably cooked it for the recipe. You know that uh, back in the day, are you a fan of uh, vegetables that are on the crunchy side or vegetables that are cooked through? No, crunchy. Yeah, yeah. So you're extracting less, like the crunchier the vegetable is, unless you've broken this stuff down, unless you've extracted out. You see what I'm saying? So like if you're pulling them early, then even no matter what, you're in a situation where you're going to have less sugar than you would
+
+[15:44] otherwise because you haven't extracted as much out. I mean, the Frenchy French is, uh, you know, back when I was at the French culinary institute. They, when I 1st started there, everyone was still very, very old school French.
+
+[15:55] So they would get all pretzled out if you gave them, uh, you know, a crunchy vegetable that, you know,
+
+[16:01] they said, this is part cooked. This is not, you know what I mean? Like they were like, it's not cooked. They want it. they want it basically cooked all the way through. Not mushy, but crypto all the way through. Whereas the average American case now, I think, skews towards, um, slightly
+
+[16:15] under, because we know Stas likes freaking raw rice and pasta, basically, she's a freaking animal,
+
+[16:20] a barbarian. vegetables that are completely mushy. How is it? You're the opposite of everything always. I love it. I'm on more street people. We're getting close. Let's squeeze in a few chat. I got a few chat room questions we'll get to. Elliot wants to know if he grinds nixtimilized corn in a food processor. Will it suck? Uh, will it suck? So for those of you that, like, you know, aren't hip to the fact. Niximalizing corn is when you treat corn with calcium, hydroxide, usually treat weather, alkali, and it takes on the, uh, the, uh, it changes the structure and the flavor, uh, and
+
+[17:01] nutritial properties, actually, of the corn. And when you grind it properly in, uh, in a nix-to-mound grinder, Uh, you get masa, which is the thing from which uh, corn tortillas are made. Okay, uh, will it suck? And the problem with making, uh, nixonizing corn, uh, is that is very hard to grind it properly. I now have a grinder I like, I have made it in a food processor. The problem with it is you have to add more water than you should, right? So it'll work. You're gonna burn out the last time I did it. I didn't burn it out, but I ran my cuisine art so hard that it never was quite the same again, because you have to have to sit there and just grind the ever loving crap out of it until you get the right texture, and you also need to, um, you need to, uh, like I
+
+[17:48] say, add more water. So then sometimes, I'm not saying to do this, but sometimes, if it's too watery, when you're done. Don't add a lot. Take a little bit of extra water. You can add some solids back in, cheat it back to the right moisture content uh to get it right. That's what I would do. I have done it. It's not ideal, not the best, but it works. And I'm in the studio. All right. You ever get the questions upstairs? Yeah. Okay. And I'm back. Does that sound better? Wow, that was really cool. Yeah. I like how, like, I was able to get a Beastie Boy reference in there on
+
+[18:26] the, on the way in. It's like a magic trick. It is. here you are. Here I am, in the studio. Wow. Not just calling in anymore, like a like a freaking chump. What if one of our callers did this one day? Just showed up. be really weird, huh? Listen, if you do, like, I'm not saying don't do this. But Nastasio will probably stab you because she'll
+
+[18:47] assume she'll assume that you mean her harm. Right. That big a scene in a scary movie, and, like, you think it's a bad guy, but it's not, but then she stabbed them anyway. Well, one thing, like anyone that knows her knows. Nastasia, not so much a wait and see kind of a lady. You know what I mean? Gut reaction. Not even just gut. It's like, oh, uh, we're stabbing this dude now? Okay. You know what I mean? Like, you see the beginning of that movie, Three Kings with Ice Cube and Mark Wahlberg back in the day? No. You didn't see that? You should say that's a good movie. At least I remember it being a good movie. But the point is, is that, you know, Mark Wahlberg sees someone and like, he's like, are we shooting people? You know what I mean? Like, that's how the movie starts, and they're like, yes. And so he shoots the person. Stas is like that. oh, so that's that's what's happening. I'm just saying you're likely to get stabbed. If you show up unannounced. Jack won't stab you. I won't stab you. Nastasi will stab you. Not out of hate. Just instinct. Let's take a quick little break so I can get the sponsor message in and you can catch up. All right. We'll be right back live.
+
+[20:05] This is not an advertisement. I promise. This is not an ad. Cooking issues, listener, you're already cooler than most people for listening to this show. And if you do listen to this show, then you know I'm Jack Insley, a.k.a. Jackie Molecules, a.k.a.
+
+[20:23] the man behind the booth. I need you to make us look cool against all the other shows. Let's make cooking issues the most supported show on the network. $one, $5, $20, $50. Really, anything you can afford. Please donate today to heritageradionetwork.org. Click on the donate tab in the top right corner. Send us a note and let us know you came from cooking issues. Dave will appreciate it. I will appreciate it. Even Nastasia will appreciate it. I promise. Give something today. Do it. Do it. Give it, do it, do it. Right? All right. So should I get to some email questions now that I have the email questions up? Yeah. All right. Okay. I see who wrote this in. You know, that was the 1st question I asked on cooking issues ever, I think. Yeah? Did I answer it properly? You did. I'm so stoked. calling again next week. I mean, sometimes I meet people at the bar, right? Because people at the bar, like, MAGA, they're like, they're like, oh, I listen to them. Oh, you ever ask a question like, no? Like, all right. You don't have to ask a question if you don't want to. Matthew M from the Seattle area. I like Seattle area, although I'm angry at the Seattle area now because my cousins are slowly drifting to it. So, you know, I'm losing, like, you know, I've basically lost my entire family dinner kitchen staff now. You know, like we had like the crew, we would crank it out and like one half of the, of the, you know, the 2 brothers, that would always come over,
+
+[21:48] Rage and James. They, you know, Ridge is like, hell with us. I'm moving back to Seattle. And I was like, oh, man. And then, you know, the 3rd brother, Kai, he's like, I'm moving back to Seattle. So then you know James is gone. Worst, worst, worst. You know what the sad thing is? Like, you know, look, I'm a New Yorker. I don't know if you know this. I'm a New Yorker. You know what I mean? My son, Booker, would, like he would murder anyone so that he could stay in New York, probably. I mean, he would definitely like throw me off a bridge if it meant he got to stay in New York and not like move somewhere else. I mean, I'm not saying he doesn't love me. I'm just saying he loves New York more. know what I mean? But I think I could deal with Seattle. I mean, the weather and the looks and like the Pacific Northwest, like I groove on all that kind of stuff, except for the fact that I'm a New Yorker. You know what I mean? What are your thoughts on Seattle Jack? I've never been, but I got a little brother out there. Well, half brother living in Seattle. You never visit him? I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not calling you, you know, bad brother or anything. I'm just saying... Look, you know. That was one of the few places I haven't been in the country, like that area. haven't really been to the Pacific Northwest. Have you say they've been to Portland, i.e. Seattle Light? Boom. Boom. No, I'm kidding. I love Portland. Portland's nice. You know, I think Portland, like at some point, like back in the in the 90s and like, you know, like 2000, 2001, 2002, I think the Seattle guys were like, we are the supreme leaders of this
+
+[23:10] area. You know what I mean? Everyone else is a fake us. And I think Portland was like, no, no. I think Portland has the mantle now, right? Like if you were going to say, what would you think of first? Jack, what would you think of first? Do you think of Portland 1st or Seattle first? Portland. See? That's a complete reversal. It is, you're right. So it was all Seattle in the 90s. Seattle, Seattle, Seattle, Seattle, Seattle. And not just because of, you know, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl. Pl Jam. Yeah, although, you know, I don't know. I think, you know, don't hold on to the past Seattle, you know. Come back to the future. Yeah, what else do they got? The salmon, coffee, they're delicious. they got all, of course, they got Nathan Mirville. They got Chris Young, Chef Steph's crew. They got, you know, Microsoft. They got a lot going for them. Chef Steps is in DC. No, Shastef is in Seattle. Yeah. Well, anyways. Uh, good salmon. Good salmon. Okay. I should get to the question. I'm a listener since January this year and I've worked through most of the backlog. I find the podcast to be an inspiring resource, so thanks for your great work. One hobby that I picked up through listening to the podcast is homemade liqueurs. You like what do you call it, liquors, liqueur. Do you say you like liqueur? liquor, liquor. Like, booze. Meta guy. Yesterday, it smelled like my uncle Ralph. Yeah. Where? Billiard, a billiard place. He's like boost. They're like in the store drinking beer, what? Oh, outside of my old, where my apartment is, the neighborhood's totally changed, and one of the downtown billiard places was up there. So I walked in because Dax's like, I want to look at the pool table. So, like, I go into the pool tables, I'm like, uh, these gentlemen smell like Michael Ralph. You know what I mean? You know, that, like, slightly sweet, like, smoke, sweet, drink, smoke, sweet, yeah. New Jersey slash. You know what I'm talking about? Anyways, no one knows what I'm talking about. All right. In that vein, I was looking to experiment with some wood infusions via EC rapid infusion method or steeping as a component for the liqueurs. My main question is, do you have any advice in general for wood flavor infusion,
+
+[25:13] e.g. wood format, chunks, chips, dust, spiral, spiral? Oh wait, chunks, chips, dust, and spirals don't seem good for small scale. All right, I'm going to hit piece by piece because otherwise I'll go on tangents, right? So, uh, wood format. Listen, the surface area of wood exposed
+
+[25:31] is in any rapid, in any infusion thing, frankly, this amount of surface area exposed is like super vitally important.
+
+[25:40] So usually the, like, the bigger the piece is, the slower the process, but that also means if you're going to do something quickly, the more controllable the process, right?
+
+[25:49] Also, like sometimes like larger things can skew things in different ways. So, for instance, like certain things might extract more slowly, from the center of a piece of wood, but you might get more kind of overall total extraction of everything once the pieces are
+
+[26:05] smaller because everything makes it out into the liquor as fast as possible. Does that make sense to us? So the size is super important. I would shoot, for rapid infusion, I usually, you want to choose a size that is not too, too
+
+[26:18] rapid because you don't want, if you have like a one minute infusion, and then you go like 30 seconds long or 22nd short. It's ruined. Like, I like, it's nice to have an infusion time. It's like, you know, three, 4 minutes because then you have like a bigger window. Also, if you make things too fine, it can be very difficult to strain the stuff out fast enough, and then while you're straining it, it'll go too much. That's like coffee is a problem with that, which is why I switch to kind of a coarser grind of coffee than I used to originally because if your filter clogs, by the time you've gotten it through the filter. And by the way, this is the one thing I hate as much as Nastasia is putting things through coffee filters, right? I hate it. I hate it. If there was one thing, there's like a couple things in my life that I'm like, you know what, I don't ever need to do that again. Putting like a bunch of crap through coffee filters, um, drywall. I hate doing drywall. I hate it. I like working with my hands. I like carpentry, drywall. You like drywall? Taking the stuff off garlic. Oh I hate that. I don't ever want to do that. You know what the thing is, people come to your house, right? And they're like, hey, could I help? Yeah, Peter all this garlic. And they're like, no, no, I mean, can I help doing something that I want to do? And you're like, what? The hell is this? You know what I'm saying? Yes. You know, because also, like, you're not going to have them cut something because they're going to mess it
+
+[27:31] up, and then here's the problem with, here's the problem with this. I'm going to get back to your question. Don't worry. But the problem with this is this. You come to me and you say, can I help, and I say, yes, cut this cucumber. And then you cut it wrong, right? Now, maybe I didn't tell you exactly how I wanted to cut, but I did tell you what I was going to use it for. right? Okay. So then you get mad at me because I have an obvious look of displeasure on my face.
+
+[27:57] Now, I haven't said anything mean to you. I haven't called you a bad person or an enemy of quality or any of these things. I just look at the cucumbers and look sad. you know what I'm saying? Does that make me bad? I mean, I'm getting better in my in my old age, like, I'm like, you know what? Because here's the thing, right? Here's the problem when you go to somebody's house and you ask them to do something. You're cutting the cucumbers up and you've mangled it, right? But once it goes out, you've completely mangled these cucumbers. you ruined them. All the pieces are all different sizes. They no longer get coated with whatever properly. It just a frigging nightmare. I don't know. I don't know what the hell you did to them but you've ruined them. Now, the problem is, is that when the host brings that crap out to the table,
+
+[28:39] what are they going to do? Everybody, Jokimo, cut the cucumbers like a chump. It wasn't me. You know what I mean? You can't do that. You have to suck it up and make it look like you're the idiot to cut the cucumbers that way. That's the problem. Maybe this is why your cousins left. No, they know I've cooked with them for like decades. They know how I want it. They know how I want that stuff. You know? All right, Jackie, you with me? You're not with me on this. I can tell you how. Secretly not with me on this stuff. talking to people in the chat room about browsers. That's the beautiful thing about this new stream. It cut out for a 2nd and then everyone's like, hey, mine cut out, and the other guy's like, well, I refreshed and it worked, so then everybody can refresh. It's great. I think browser needs to be, like, it's a word that needs to be said in a more highbrow fashion browser, right? Doesn't it deserve to, like, that's not like Bowser. Browser sounds like Bowser from Shana-an. Remember Shana? Man, I'm old. All right. Wood preparation, raw, toasted, uh, chard. Now listen, uh, when you're charring like an oak barrel, for instance, let's say you're making whiskey and you're charring an oak barrel, uh, you're getting a surface char, but then it's also extracting stuff out of, uh, you know, it goes through the point all through toasting and try to say,
+
+[29:50] like, if you char small pieces of wood, that's a whole hell of a lot of char. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But look, you know, there are people who all they do all day, all night is thinking about different ways to
+
+[30:02] toast wood. I mean, this is like a field of endeavor that people study like or practice for decades and never get it right. So it's like, you know, I would shoot for something that you know you can repeat, right? So I would 1st try to settle in on a size of wood. And then I would try to figure out kind of some reproducible toasting thing, which is going to be difficult because if the moisture content of the wood changes, your
+
+[30:27] timing will be different. You know what I mean? It's very hard to do it by temperature or by color because it's hard, you know? Anyways. Uh, best solvent, water, alcohol, blend, and temperature. Well, duh alcohol, but not straight alcohol, probably alcohol, alcohol and water. As we like to call it, booze. Now, the higher proof that you'd, I mean, like, look, different flavors, the alcohol is gonna extract a lot faster than the water, a lot of the stuff. And so, you know, there's an optimum, um, there's an optimum kind of extract, but I don't really know what it is. I in general work with, um, um, pre-watered booze at like 40, 40, but you know, it depends. If you're using a higher proof stuff, you can, but most of the stuff that we operate is somewhere between 40 and 50%
+
+[31:07] alcohol and you'd have to search far and wide to get a higher, but you know, you could go get this. We use this stuff called Technical Reserve that's made here in Brooklyn. Brooklyn, and it's like 95% pure, and it's pretty clean, right? It doesn't smell too much like a hospital. So you can make a tincture with that. We do that sometimes, but it's like extraction. I've done ISI with straight liquor, but man, you gotta watch out because it's some super hardcore. Uh, web resources for food grade wood and infusion. I can only find oak chips for wine making and wood pellets for smoking. I'm assuming the woods for smoking and infusion have different safety considerations. The pellets, I wouldn't do the pellets, but like any piece of wood, like, you're kidding yourself if you think that they, look, don't use pressure treated woods. You know what I mean? Like, but like, like, I've used, oh, from Home Depot. But you know what I mean? Like, you know, just like, you know, get the surface off of it. It's it's wood. You know what I mean? It's like imagine, you know, you go to the store, you buy a cucumber, you go to the lumber yard. Yeah, you buy some wood. You know what I mean? I could be wrong. Someone write me in and tell me that I've just told someone to do something terrible. Are there woods that are generally safe at high extractions, assuming typical barrel oaks? Not sure what else do you use? Maybe sugar, maples, birch. People, I mean, there are people who have done a lot of work with alternate woods. I have not. I would want to. I mean, it depends also on what you believe, right? So there are woods, tropical woods that are toxic, but in general, like a woodworker would know that. The other question is, is like, once you start doing infusions, like, you could go get, um, sassafras, uh, wood, for instance, right? But it contains saffro. So, you may believe that Saffral is, well, the United States government believes that it's a carcinogen and won't let you put it
+
+[32:51] in the food. You may believe that it's not a problem, in which case you could use it. I don't believe it's a problem. I use it. It's traditional. You know what I mean? But whatevs. anyway. Woods that should be widely avoided due to high risks, even at low extractions. I mean, the good thing is, like I say, stay, I would stay away from any sort of like weird tropical, toxic wood that you don't know what it is. Stay away from any sort of, any sort of, um, pressure treated or any sort of treated wood whatsoever, any wood that's ever been painted, any wood that's ever been
+
+[33:21] shellacked, any wood that's ever been finished at all under any circumstances. stay away from. I would also say that like a lot of pines will probably not be 100% pleasant on an extraction basis, whereas like some of their resins
+
+[33:35] are good, but I don't know that they'd be good from a wood extraction standpoint, yeah? Yeah, good. Anyway. Um, 2nd related question. Are you aware of common herbs and spices that become dangerous under high extractions, nutmeg, for instance, could become psychotropic and toxic, though I doubt it would be palatable
+
+[33:51] available. It really is. People have to hide it. They mix in with, I think peanut butter. Fishbone did a whole song and maybe even a whole section of an album on trying to trip off of
+
+[34:00] Nutmeg. You ever done that, Jack? Or do you know anyone that's ever done that? whose name might be backy molecules? Like, uh, like I haven't. Oh, the thing about nutmeg is, right? I mean, like, nutmeg highs are for, like, uh, like 14 year olds who, like, are interested in trying something, but don't have a source. You know what I mean? So they go into the pantry and they pound like, you know, nutmegs like. condoning this. No, no, you should never do this. This is not smart because the actual thing about nutmeg is,
+
+[34:30] uh, from what I've read is that the, um, 1st of all, it's terrible in large quantities. Secondly, I believe that the dose line between psychotropic and toxic is very is not very big. So I don't I don't think it's necessarily a safe thing to OD on. You know what I mean? But, like I said, if you want to go look up herbs and their effects, there is a whole community, it's, I haven't been to it a long time, but it's called like
+
+[34:59] Arrowwit or the vault. It's a place where I used to go to get information on extracting stuff from. Yeah, the drug site. Yeah, but those people are fantastic because they've tested every freaking thing. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, how do you get the most, uh, you know, uh, uh, well, they're interested in psychotropic principles, but how do you get the most stuff out of X, Y,
+
+[35:17] Z urban? And so all these knuckleheads have tried all these solvents. You know what I mean? Most of them not food grade. And then, um, and, you know, they've tried anything that anyone has ever said has a psychotropic effect, they have
+
+[35:29] uh, pounded. Rue is one you should probably also stay away from. Not for psychotropic. There's lots of things. I would get an herbal guide. Plenty of those things have toxicity levels, and in general, I... Man, this list is crazy on the site. Of what? Mint, garlic, ginger. I'm telling you, man. it's crazy. These guys are like, like, there are people who, what they do, is they sit down in the morning when they get up and they're like, what have I not tried to eat in large enough quantities to mess my brain up and will it do anything?
+
+[36:00] And then they report on it. I mean, I think it's a great public service. I don't know. What do you think, Jack? Yeah, I support it. Anyways, uh, also, obviously, like, um, uh, spices that are toxic and super high doses,
+
+[36:14] like uh, Thujone is toxic and super high doses, and it's very prevalent in like sage extracts. I wouldn't pound sage extract. I wouldn't pound clove oil extract. It's an anesthetic. There can be other, you know, there's, so things that are high in Thujone, things that are high in, uh, usual. There's all sorts of things. These things aren't meant to be eaten in super high quantities. In fact, one of the things that, you know, we were coming across, we didn't make it into the exhibition that the museum is
+
+[36:37] doing, but, um, you know, most of these things are toxic or at least irritants are noxious in super high quantities. So if you want to see what it's like for an insect. The reason insects don't eat mint. Take a, like, a quarter teaspoon of pure mint oil and put that sucker in your mouth.
+
+[36:55] You did that with me, right, Stas? It is freaking, but banana lamas. Anyway. What? Wait, we're over? It's one. Ah, all right. Well, sorry about the whole streets of Philadelphia issue. I got propane questions to get to. I've got Wagyu beef. Listen, Wagyu beef. Who wrote that in? Who wrote that in? Kevin from Los Gatos. I answer you more in depth, but listen, you already have the beef, so I have to answer you quickly right now. Listen, listen, listen. The reason you need, he had a, he was, by the way, people, what he's doing is he's aging a, he's aging a big, what has he got? He's got a Wagyu, but what has he got? He's got a 7 rib, A5 wagy beef roast. He wants a dry agent for 30 days, and his fridge that he has it in, is running at 55, 50 to 55% relative humidity. And he's wondering, does he really needed to get up to 70 or 80 because he doesn't? he doesn't, he's like, I don't care if it, if I lose a little more moisture because that's, um, just more flavor, right? No, no, no, no. Get the moisture up. Listen, you're gonna case harden. That's what you're worried about. If you go that low on your moisture, you're at the case harden the outside of the meat, which is not what you want for proper aging. So take a salt pan, old school, take a pan, saturated salt solution, put extra crystals in the bottom. It should be able to maintain about 80, I think. Someone go look it up for me, tweet it back on out. We'll get you next week on the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] It's time. Today's program is brought to you by Mickter's Distillery. Visit Mickters.com to find out how their taste is everything, cost be
+
+[0:09] damned. Attitude is creating some of the finest whiskeys available. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from Bushwick, Brooklyn. How you doing? Oh, I'm on the super reverb, the lady who's eating lunch outside. I was like, what the what the heck? the what? What? Check. Can I move? Can I move? She actually just got her check. It's fine. Uh, yeah. yeah. Well, welcome to the show. calling all your questions. Two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Here for the next 45 minutes or so, right, Jack? Yeah. Which speaking of, we have Jack Insley, our intrepid engineer over there in the booth. One of the listeners referred to him as J-Mal, which is his new Star Wars name. Oh, God. J-Mal. You need to have like one of those double sided, like, uh, you need to get you some like face paint. You could be like like kiss almost. Oh, that's not a, do you like that kind of music? Do you listen to like Kiss? Kiss, no. You don't like to rock and roll all night? I like rock. Do you like to party every day? Not every day, no. That's why. That's why you couldn't hang with them because they party every single day. Not just not just some days. I couldn't get into the theater. I could never take them seriously with makeup in the theatrics and all that. Yeah? Well, you know, I hear that there, with the exception of Gene Simmons, I hear that they're nice fellas. Jim Simmons is horrible dude. Yeah, that's what I hear. So I hear. And you got Stas, the Hammer Lopez, how you doing? Good. Yeah? Anything special happened? You're giving me a talk at Yale on Thursday. I am. that's true Is it open at the public? I don't know. We can look it up. I'm supposed to have figured out what I'm going to serve people, and I haven't figured it out yet. But if you're in the, if you're in, well, I know where it is,
+
+[2:17] they, they, like the event that I'm going to is at a place in New Haven
+
+[2:22] called Bar. It's called Bar. Bar has been there for over 25 years. The reason I know this is because that's where I wooed my wife. Jen, that's where, like, on, they used to have something called alternative. Did I already talk about this on the show? They used to have something called alternative Wednesdays, right? So alternative Wednesdays was when they because back then it was like pre, you know, pre, when people like listen to stuff. So it was like industrial rave stuff. You familiar with the band LA style? Jack, you familiar with the old kind of industrial housey? He's on the phone. It's their big song was James Brown is dead. Of course, he was not dead at that time, but yet that was a song we listened to. So that's how I that's how I was able to land my wife, which is nice. Anyway, I'll be there again on Thursday. And we also have in the studios a new special guest. Our new Booker and Dax, Sears all customer service representative. Social media too. Big social media. Social, so unlike Nastasia and myself, antisocial media. By the way, like, I know I have a 1000000 like Twitter things. I mean, my head has been so buried because I'm working on this MoFAD exhibit that's opening up in a couple of weeks and on my next booker and Dax project that I've been
+
+[3:32] buried. I haven't been getting, I get like once a week I look at my Twitter. So if I haven't answered you, I will answer you soon. But I like to introduce Rebecca, give us your whole life in 20 seconds or less. My whole life? 20 seconds or less. whole life into the mic, please. What do you got? Hello, everybody. My whole life. I'm 22. I like the color orange and ice cream. Wow. Orange is nice. That was under 20 seconds. She did it. Yeah, I gave her less than 12nd for every year of her life. I'm glad that you like ice. Where are you from? Um, outside of Philly. Outside of Philly. Oh, okay. So do you like, okay, so you're 22. So by the time that you probably remember most things, Briars had already changed their recipe to include all sorts of stabilizers. Do you remember back when Briars did not have stabilizers? I don't, Pride is not my favorite, so I don't know. Well, but you're from Philly. Technically not from Philly, but... Originally originally Long Island, but... I've also lived in 2 other states. So do you believe that it's do you believe it's Strong Island or the wrong island? I can figure out where you're from. Because either you hate Long Island, in which case it's the wrong island, or you love Long Island, in which case it's Strong Island. I'm going to go in the middle. You're gonna go in the middle? Yeah, I was too little to... going with wrong. Oh, yeah. Stas likes it. Stas believes in the stronger. You like that? You like going over there to the beach and all that stuff. What? I don't. Really? Yeah, I don't. Wait, man. I have to sometimes. Oh, I'm a Porsche has to go to the basement. No, no, it's never for fun. It has not been for fun ones. Wow, wow. Hey, 2 things. So I have a caller that I want to get to, but before we do that, I have to send a big, big, big shout out to John
+
+[5:13] Nihole. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And of course, our old friend, Joel Esposito, both listened to the drop and made donations and specified that it came from cooking issues.
+
+[5:24] So they are the coolest people of the day. Thank you. Please, please. Please specify so that Jack knows, you know, kind of what's going. Also, after we spoke to the caller. Mickters, huh? We got Mickters on board? We got Mickters, yeah. They've been they've been around. This is their 1st cooking issues. Oh, all right. So, you know, I like their product, but they apparently don't like ours well enough. All right, whatever. Well, now they do, right? Here they are. All right. Yeah, molecular or whatever as our sponsor. Okay, listen, hey, nothing. Enough of that stuff. Call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? doing all right. This is Chris from the Green Zone in DC. How you doing? How's how's everything going? How was that recipe with the mint working out? Was it was everything all right? It's not summer anymore, and the entire summer run. I just wanted its order because I couldn't find a solution. Yeah, it's tough. oxidized it so quickly. Since most of what I do involve is infusion, and of course, I'm doing HD infusion. One of the things I'm trying to infuse is some sticky resins, like mastic tears or frankincense tears.
+
+[6:25] And when I tried one of them in the itchy, it gunks up the entire itchy, like, you know, I did 2 It was a, um, half liter, 2 uh, nitrous cartridges, and the entire inside of
+
+[6:39] the AC was like coated in this sticky residue, and then it messed up my strainer, it messed up a bar spoon. I just, everything was coated in this, like really impermeable stuff. Um, and then I tried doing another one, just a standard infusion in a jar, and that was a bit better, but again, like everything it touches, just gets this coating on it. Um, so I was wondering if you had, 1st of all, if you knew what solvent for that would
+
+[7:03] be, other, because I've tried everything from pure alcohol to vinegar, nothing or, um, and also a good way to infuse
+
+[7:10] it that doesn't just gunk up all my equipment. You know, this is crazy. I have another question in from George, who we met on Mastika. Like it must be like in the in the mental air, uh, and that stuff, that stuff is some sticky, some super sticky once you start
+
+[7:26] using. I mean, uh, I used to make, uh, oil and even just a couple of tears, uh, would stick to the bottom of the pan forever and took a long time to fully dissolve into the
+
+[7:35] oil and there's always like some sort of residue left. just a nightmare. And I was thinking about it for George's problem too. He was, he was trying to make, uh, he wants to make the, the water, the mystica water, which I don't know if, if anyone's been back to Greece recently, they now
+
+[7:48] have uh, this like basically seltzer water with uh, mystica flavor in it, which actually I think
+
+[7:53] is. I like it a lot I think it's really refreshing. Nastasi. didn't like it so much. I pounded it like, but I love that resin flavor anyway. It must be good. Yeah, flavor's great. Yeah, I love it anyway. And so, you know, his problem was how to how to dissolve it, but not an
+
+[8:06] easy, because you can't get to an EC and neither can you throw it away. Like, my solution for him was going to be, like, let's throw it away, you know,
+
+[8:14] like, put it, put it. He wanted to do a distillation, right? So what I was going to tell him and maybe I'll read his question later if I have time. But what I was going to tell him to do was, he was looking to either do an infusion into alcohol and then or oil and then try to suspend
+
+[8:30] it, right? In which case, it's going to go cloudy. It's not going to be like the, ooh, we lost them. I'll keep talking. It's going to be cloudy. It's not going to be, you know, clear. So for that application, if you were going to use an extract, it's going to go cloudy. Can you can you go back a bit because I just got cut off. Oh, yeah. Sure. So I'll say for George, he had a slightly different problem. He was looking to make a, he wants to make the water, right? And so he had a couple of different things. One, he was looking at distillation, not an infusion, and also just at using like Mastika extracts. Now, his problem with the Mystica extract is, is that it was clouding up, right? Uh, I mean, sorry, not cloud, floating to the top, uh, and not not staying in. So one thing you can do, obviously, without us to answer both of your questions at the same time. One thing you can do is just keep shaking it and over time you'll get some transfer and then skim the stuff off the top, but it's going to be fairly light, you know,
+
+[9:21] flavor-wise. Another thing you can do for that is you can stabilize that with gum
+
+[9:27] Arabic into a syrup. You can stabilize the stuff with gum Arabic. Once you stabilize it with the gum Arabic, you then should be able to make a soda with it. It will separate over time, but you'll be able to shake it back in. right? So that you'll be able to do. So you try that. Because that's how they do it. Now, unless you use an oil stabilizer that's weighted, you're not going to be able to get it to stay in 100%
+
+[9:50] in a carbonated beverage without having it separate over time, but again, you can just shake it back in. And the reason to use gum Arabic is that gum Arabic has very low viscosity and dilutes well without
+
+[10:02] having emulsions break. So it's it is used for soda syrups to stabilize things into soda syrups, but it's not going to help with stability over time because it's not going to change the weight of the
+
+[10:12] particles. So you'll still get some separation. Anyway. Then he was saying, George was saying, I want to distill the stuff, but then it sticks to everything in the pot.
+
+[10:22] So I was going to say to just do a test, do an old style, like real, uh, cheap distillation, get a pot, put a strainer in the pot, line that strainer with something you can throw away, like linen cloth
+
+[10:34] or, like a napkin or, you know, some sort of paper filter, something that's not going to be something you don't mind losing. Stick the, uh, the, uh, mystique in that, the kios mystica, in that. and then put the lid on top, put water in the bottom, boil it, boil it, boil the, you know, crap out of it, and then just keep putting ice cubes on the top of the lid so that you form a reflux system where it keeps
+
+[10:55] on where it keeps on refluxing. And I think it'll work, but I have to have someone try it to make sure that it would work. Now, on your thing with the EC, maybe we could do a similar kind of a situation. I don't think the melted crap will go through a tea satchel. So if you were to buy, uh, like, and maybe double bag some tea satchels, not the, you know the tea satchel stars that are like plasticky with kind of big holes, I wouldn't use that.
+
+[11:20] I'd use kind of the more papery ones with the small holes, stick the stuff in and do the ISI, you should be able to extract it, and the melted goop, I don't think, is
+
+[11:28] going to make it through the, uh, that the tea bags. But I could be wrong. So I mean, I could be wrong. So I would test it and see whether or not that works out for you. And by the way, George, that that, you know, that same technique using an ISI might be good for flavor as well. So I knocked out 2 mystikas with one stone. So, Rebecca, what are your favorite kind of ice cream? We were talking about briars. Briar's, obviously, Philadelphia style famously, no eggs. right? So do you like a Philadelphia style? You don't even consider yourself Philadelphia. I shouldnt even talk to you about Philadelphia ice cream. So what kind of ice cream do you like? one of these hyper dense, like, super rich, like, French style, like, gemile style. Do you love anything? Chocolate? No. I like hard ice cream. Like hard ice cream? The other day, I tried, hmm, what was it called? famous, famous ice cream in Brooklyn. The last, it's like something hills. Hills? Hills? I don't know. when you say hills, I say hills alive in the sound of music. Did you go to Oddfellows? You should go to Oddfellows. I will try. Sam Mason's... There was a beautiful salted caramel with salted caramel in it. I would hope that salted caramel contains salted caramel. Well, no, sometimes it's just the flavor, you know? This was a good one. All right. So I've got a caller, but I have I have a pretty hilarious comment. I've gotta share before that. All right. Got a comment here in the chat room. Man, cooking issues is just a sideshow compared to this chat. Dave might be out of work soon. Wow, well, I like being a sideshow. I've been called a sideshow like my whole life, right? Usually, though, I'm not a sideshow, like, I'm a sideshow freak, is more like what people call me, a sideshow freak, huh? So they're having a lively chatter, by the way. It's a very lively chatter. We're talking about croissants, you know, all kinds of things. Nas doesn't like croissants. That's why I never can talk about them. I think they're delicious. What are they saying about the croissant? Well, they ask, they're asking like, hey, what's everybody eating? So I said, I'm having a croissant. And they started talking about croissants. You know what's an absurd word? Chris sandwich. makes no sense. That's a ridiculous word. And what about those donuts that are also... Grownuts? I happen to know the fellow that makes it the gronuts. What are your feelings on them? I would rather have one or the other. Yeah, I'm with you. Wow. Hate her on the coconut. It's called ample Hills, the ice cream. Ample Hills? Oh yeah, that stuff's good. It's amazing. Yeah. All right. Well, go check out my man Sam Mason's Oddfellas, too. If you're an ice cream fan and you're in the Brooklyn greater Brooklyn area, you must. You're obliged. Okay. Wait, we have a caller you said? All right, call her, you were on the air. I too. Nastasia Dave, Jack, and Rebecca. I might have something for you, Dave. We have a medium-sized liquid amber in the yard. Uh, and if I'm able to procure some sweet grum without murdering the tree, I'd be happy to send you the good.
+
+[14:20] Any ideas on how and when I might harvest the red. All right, so we're talking about sweet gum trees, liquid umbar, styro. how do you pronounce it? Styracafula? Styraca? What is it? Styraca? I don't remember. Yeah. Anyway, so sweet gum trees, uh, which by the way, I found out you can grow into my place in Connecticut, but they just don't grow there naturally. They have a, right? That what we're talking about here, sweet gums. And they have a resin in them that is supposedly sweet that can be harvested and was harvested by Native Americans. I have no idea how to do it. I don't think it runs as freely as like a syrup. I don't think it saps out that same way. I think you have to do it like you would for, uh, like other resin style things where you make a, uh, like a,
+
+[15:02] um, a, a vertical. Remember, if you're ever going to wound a tree like that to get the resin, you want to go vertical because you don't want to, in any way, girdle the
+
+[15:11] tree, you know what I mean? And would you go off of a side branch? Or do you need to go off the main track? Oh. Well, I never thought of it. Most people who are gonna like, you know, take things off of trees end up going off of the trunk. I had never thought of doing a branch. I don't know how they do. I don't know how they harvest, you know, gum acacia from acacia trees. I should go take a look at some pictures and see how they do it. Acacia trees, I think, are relatively small. you know, in relation to a sweet gum, which is I consider that for this neighborhood, like a midsized tree. You know what I mean? So, huh, I don't know, but I mean, I'm going to look at some pictures and maybe talk about the next time up. I'll encourage you to look at some pictures too, but I think it's going to be a wound and weight, kind of a situation, and I don't know what the difference in flavor would be between, let's say, because I haven't researched in a long time between, let's say,
+
+[16:06] like an early spring, like 1st resin versus a later, but I'm pretty sure
+
+[16:12] the last time I read there was a definite time that is best to do it. But I'm going to look into it and we'll, uh, you know, uh, Because I want to try this stuff. Let me just put it this way. I want to try this stuff. Right. Is there anything else I need to do to confirm that it's the right species that has the 5 pointed leaves, drops the monkey balls. That's it. You're good. I'm on the west coast. I'm Southern California. So, you know, this wouldn't be a native tree here. Right, yeah. Any problem there? No. I mean, I mean, it's probably, you know, I think the sweet gum is like from like my area here in New York on
+
+[16:49] south. So it doesn't like, uh, it doesn't like it to be like hyper cold. You know what I mean? So it's not like an extreme northern tree. So I think it should do fine, you know, out, you know, where you are. Um, I don't know, I don't know how it is, um, with uh, drought tolerance or anything like that, but, you know, if
+
+[17:07] the tree looks good, it's gonna, it's gonna be good. And there's no other species I know of that looks like a sweet gum other than the sweet gum. In fact, in fact, this kid, I was so upset, this
+
+[17:19] kid, like, was at a county fair. Did I mention this on a show, county fair up in Connecticut, and he won some sort of freaking prize for his collection. Now he was a kid. So, like, Nastasia would cut in some slack, not me. And he puts a sweet gumball in his collection of plant seeds and writes sycamore. Oh, what the hell? They don't, I mean, they're spherical, right? So, like, you know, a sweet gum ball looks like a sycamore ball in the way that a basketball is very similar to a koosh.
+
+[17:51] You know what I mean? It's like they're not, they're not. you correct him? Well, he wasn't there. I was just like, you know, if I if I was the judge, I would have been like, me. Goodbye, kid. you know learn some precision. And then I would have written a note. I would have said, not sycamore. Sweet gum. Smiley face. Smiley face. You know, or, you know, look, it's probably not the kid. The kid, I'm sure what happened. Okay, I feel bad. I'm sure the kid went to one of his parents and was like, hey ma, hey dad, what is this? And they were like, that's a sycamore. And so like, he was just like, you know, he believed them. So maybe he should just go smack his parents in the face. But I'm not advocating smacking your parents in the face. I'm just saying, know your sweet gums. But let me know. I'm going to look into it and maybe if I can remember, I'll talk about what I've learned and then call back and tell us if you were able to harvest anything else. No, let you know what I find. Can I can I hit with a couple of just brief questions for myself? I have a quinine sulpate source from Kim Sabers. But I'm wondering if you would service to your family. Quantasulfate? I serve to my family constantly. Well, but this from this source, it's uh, 99% nitration
+
+[18:56] says uh, for research and development, not for drug clinical use in humans, but it does it
+
+[19:01] meets, it meets USC, USP specifications. Uh, I could give you like the certificate. Yeah, if they said it's USP. Okay, listen, remember this. Remember, all the quinine you buy is actually from quinine bark. I mean, Kinchona Bark, okay? It's not synthesized. So it's not like it's made out of some crazy, like, you know,
+
+[19:26] like conglomerate of poison, although it itself is poison. But like the, uh, so, you have that going for you. Now, the issue is, is whether or not it's been certified for food or for, by the way, drug,
+
+[19:42] uh, how can say not certified for drugs, but it has a USP, so it's good for pharmacopia.
+
+[19:48] Is there like just a more expensive process to go through FDA, to get the actual... I don't know. I mean the real stuff's not that expensive. In other words, Schwepps isn't paying the prices that we're paying to get this stuff. You know what I'm saying? But the, um, So, look, if it's USP, I feel pretty safe. especially considering the small amounts that you're using. The risk is, is that they, if they stored it in an area that's contaminated with stuff that is otherwise
+
+[20:17] nasty. But what do they say that the other, like half a percent of the point is? Uh, so we've got, because purity by HPLC, uh, 99 to 101%, uh, and it says, yeah, water, 45%, uh, heavy metals,
+
+[20:36] .001%, insoluble matter, .one%. I mean, look. It says that organic vault soil, impurities pop the test. If it says USP, I would use it. I like, I don't want to make your decision for you, but if it said USP, I would use it. Okay, well, I'll try it on myself and I know that can be the one that suffers. But again, if it is a heavy metal thing, right? You won't know that I've shafted you for another couple of decades, but hey, by then maybe they will affix that. I'll call back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then along with, I'm going to be terminating that. Do you see any problem with leaving a CO2 tank on any problem with the regulator or it's just under my
+
+[21:18] sink, a £10 tank and it's a pain to go in there and twist the thing off. Is there any potential? No, I leave mine on 100% of the time that there, Yeah, there are potentials for problems, right? If your hose bursts, it'll dump the entire £10 tank into your into your kitchen. But, like, you know, what I would do is a lot of people who sell kind of homebrew stuff, they tend to sell this kind of very flexible hose that comes off of the tank,
+
+[21:43] okay? And I hate it. I really freaking hate it. That like unreinforced hose is the worst. And I've seen that stuff burst. So I would invest in the real, like, uh, it's like double wall. There's an inner tube, then there's like, there's like a, um, like a fiberglass reinforcing, and then an outer, and the inner line is, I think, polyethylene, and it's
+
+[22:05] this completely reinforced, like, beverage line. And I have never once ever, ever seen one rupture. I've seen one be abused so horribly that it did generate a pinhole leak, but I've never
+
+[22:17] seen, and that was real abuse, but I've never seen one like rupture ever in service. And if you get the real odic or ear clamps that they're really cheap that are meant for that size tubing that you're using and clamp it down, it would take a force of nature to cut that thing
+
+[22:33] open. And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry about that because that's what people do 100% of the time in bars. They hook the tank up to their to their carbonator and then that's it. You know what I mean? But don't do it with the crappy hose, though, all right? Okay, for a friend, what would your thoughts, time, and temp before cooking? Uh, nostalgia might want to plug your ears. cooking a human placenta. Oh Jesus. I don't think Dave likes that either. Oh, Jesus. I can't give her. Imagine what happened if I gave a recommendation on the air. Jack, what are your, or get, I'm get, even Rebecca, who I don't know. is literally the 1st time I met her, has a Anastasia style face on. Jack, what are your thoughts on this? I say go for it. I don't no idea. I ask a doctor. listen, doctors famously don't know how to cook anything. Like, I mean, I mean, plenty of doctors know how to cook things, but it's not part of their purview, but doctors will always, a doctor will give you a food safety recommendation. Right. I don't know. They'll say boil the heck up. What? Yeah, I don't know man. I don't know that I want to go on record with a placenta recipe. I think it just might be one of those things that comes back and bites me in the behind. You know what I mean? And thanks for your call. I understand. Yeah. All right. Let us know what happens with the liquid M bar. Thanks so much. All right. Let me tell you, though. What? One question. One question. one question. Even if Jack tells you, hey, just one question. Hey, don't come out of the area. Hey, listen, listen, listen. Oh, but no, but he's doing us a favor. He's going to get us a liquid embar. Here's one thing though. On the chat room, why don't you guys go to town? Those of you who don't mind, go to town on your placenta recommendations. Am I right, Jack? Yeah, send, go crazy. Relegate me to this eyeshow. You know? I'll be the sideshow and you can be the freak if you're putting, you know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying. Okay. rip through some questions because I don't want to miss them. Got a question in. I don't know who it's from. On Lardo. I recently cured Lardo that is now hanging in the walk-in. It was just now that I realized I accidentally used insecure number one instead of insecure number two. What we're talking about lardo is based cured, back fat, delicious. Do you like lardo? Wow, finally, something. Uh, and um, the recipe that this person is using um, calls for curing salt. So curing salt is salt plus either sodium nitrate or sodium nitrate. Now, if you're doing a long cured product like a ham or, in this case, Alardo, if you're going to specify curing salt, you would typically specify the one that has
+
+[24:59] night trait in it, right? So instead of because nitrate is longer lasting, longer acting, it takes a long time for the curing salt to make it to the middle of a big cut like
+
+[25:09] this. And if it doesn't make it to the middle before it's converted, then you don't have any curing power. Capiche? Gotcha. Okay. So, he or she used the wrong one. I was wondering whether, you know, they're going to kill everybody. The answer is, the answer is, I would feel 100% okay with this because, uh, 1st of all, remember, um,
+
+[25:28] a lot of people, when they were traditionally curing Lardo, they're not using a curing salt anyway. They're just using regular salt. Secondly, it's a whole cut. So if it hasn't been punctured, there's nothing going on in the middle anyway. So it's not like a salami where, you know, like the actual, you know, the word botulism comes from the word for sausage in Latin because, you know, you take stuff, you mix it up, it's contaminated in the middle, you exclude the
+
+[25:50] air and it's botulism time. You know what I mean? if you if you don't. So 1st of all, you're going to have a high salt level, which is going to inhibit the botulism. You're dealing with a whole muscle cut. And here's the kicker. Unlike muscle meat. Um, there is not as much water in back fat by a long shot. So it doesn't take as much to get the water activity of back fat very low. And if the water activity, the back fat's very low, there's going to be no botulism growing. And so I think you're aided by, so although I looked up on the net on the way over here
+
+[26:19] that like the super fresh back fat, unshield, has a fairly high water activity like 991 or something like this. If you, and it just said, uh, dried, I think salted and dried or smoked or something like this without no curing, had a water activity down, like 0.7 something. And so, in other words, ain't nothing, ain't nothing growing in that in that son of a gun. So I would I would feel I would feel confident. I would say confident. What do you think, Stas? Good answer. Peter wanted you to mention to people to buy tickets. Oh, why don't you mention it since you're buying tickets to their new exhibit at
+
+[26:53] tickets.mofad.org. Wow, that was a sales style. I wasn't frigging. I'm sold. Wow, I'm going to go right on that damn website. Hey, I'm gonna be there too. Yeah. Jackie Molecules? Jamal? doing sound. Sound. Sound guy. Hey, I got some I have caller, right? And I also, I have to read some of this stuff that's coming into the chat room. Um, you know, you you you opened up the rabbit hole here. Elliot says 3 hours at 76.3 degrees Celsius, then sears all. And then someone else said, you forgot to pre-sear the placenta. Wow. Someone else said soup dumpling placenta. Yeah. So that's happening. And there's a caller on the line. Caller, you're on the air. Hey guys, how's it going? It's John from New Haven here. How you doing? Just got my Mopad tickets yesterday. I actually can't wait for the exhibits. I'm really looking forward to that. Nice. See, that's a sale. A question on black garlic. Oh yes, go ahead. I've been interested in making some on my own, and I'm looking at the series seats website, and
+
+[27:53] I say they either do it in a dehydrator or an oven at 130 for like 2 to 3 weeks. Yep. And that's a really long time to tie up my oven. have a dehydrator, but I do have a circulator and I was wondering if I could do the garlic in a Ziploc bag for like 2 or 3 weeks in there. That should work. I don't see why it won't. Another option if you're really interested is I know people have done slightly higher temperatures, they've used to keep warm in a rice cooker and just let it rock in the rice cooker. And it's actually faster because the temperature's somewhat elevated, but it's not high enough to, like, you know, cook it, cook it out or anything like this. And so I know, I know a bunch of people who, I think it was, it was Johnny Hunter. I think he was telling us about like the rice cooker stuff and that you could do it at a higher temperature than what is recommended and it still works and works faster.
+
+[28:41] Has a slightly different flavor, obviously, but it works and works faster. So the rice cooker. Yeah, basically anything that you can control, you know? uh, like, dehydrators, you know, you can get like a, you don't remember if you're doing a dehydrator, you need to seal it so it stays moist, right? I mean, you know, yeah. You know, you could also just get, like, an electric thing,
+
+[29:06] an electric, you know, what's a flexible electric heater. and stick it to the outside of a jar with a thermocouple in between that and the jar and put it on one of these $30 PIDs. You could be, you could be out of the woods with a temperature controlled curing chamber for probably under 70 bucks. Uh, you know, because you don't need hyper accuracy. You just need to stay relatively the same temperature and be sealed. You know what I mean? And so you could do that without, like, see, once you have the circulator, you have the water running all the time, you have that noise in
+
+[29:40] your kitchen for 2 weeks, you're running that thing, and yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like if you do this, it's like, you know, very, you can insulate it so that you're not like throwing off energy into the
+
+[29:48] atmosphere and you can make something kind of fairly efficient that way, probably for pretty cheap. Okay, and then just real quick, I go back to the circulator again, I wouldn't be running
+
+[29:59] any like foodborne illness risk or anything like that if it's sealed away for that long or with the time and
+
+[30:03] time, you know, they kill everything. What temperature are you going to use? Um, I mean, ideally around the 13, 140. Oh, yeah. If you're running it like what's 140? in Celsius? Uh, 55. Oh, yeah, so that should be fine. Yeah, you're fine. You can run it from now and now until we all keel over dead and you'll be good. We won't keel over from the from the microbes. peel over from being dead. Great. All right, perfect. Thank you so much. appreciate it. All right. good luck. Take your break now. That's how to ask a question and get out, though. See? The one question. Yeah, appreciate that. You're gonna hit it. Hit it and quit. Anyway, okay, we'll take a quick break and come back. more questions on the cooking issues.
+
+[31:07] Here's what Heritage Radio Network would sound like without donations. It's not as good as the show you were just listening to, is it? Give us a few bucks. Help keep us running. heritageradionetwork.org. Click the donate tab on the top right corner. You don't you don't like the silence? You think that you think people actually prefer to listen to the show, rather? I don't mind silence, but I'm guessing they like you better. Now now you have sounds of silence going through my head. Yeah, well, Stas and I had this thing where we were cooking turkeys, and when I was boning the turkey, I was singing Wachalote, my old friend. And so now whenever I have sound silence going through my head, I have Wachalote, my old friend. You know what I mean? And I'm sitting there, I can go back to like boning this turkey out. You know what I mean? Nice. I've never had a real honest to God freaking waxalote. I need to, right? You know what I mean? These like weak, these weak commercial Pabos. Although, the ones that heritage cells, right? They're pretty close to a wild turkey, but they're still raised, right? I mean, they're fairly close. So can I say that it's pretty wild. Oh, so if I can say if I say if I've had the heritage turkeys, would you say that like I've had the taste of true
+
+[32:27] guajalote? I want to hear Steve Jenkins say it. Yeah. You gotta you gotta shoot him in the face to save him. Actually, you know, that's true of the turkey. That's why one of the things I want to go hunting for is is turkey. My wife will not let me get a freaking, 1st of all, it would... Okay, look, my wife won't let me have like a gun in that. I working on air rifles. I told this on the air, but you can't use air rifles to kill turkeys in Connecticut. But the good thing about shooting turkeys Is it's headshot or nothing? So it's kill or miss. There's no wounding. Kill or miss. What if you miss the hat? Well, you have to miss so bad. It's got this long neck. What I'm saying is you're shooting for the head. It's attached to a long neck. So it's not like, you know, if you're trying to get a hard shot and you hit it in the butt and it's running around. The odds are you either kill it dead or you miss it entirely. Seems to me that this is a good mode of hunting. Plus, they're hard. So it's like, you know, I don't know, right? I mean, if you're going to go hunting, it seems to me that like what you don't want to do is be an inexperienced hunter, go out there and just wing a bunch of
+
+[33:26] birds and then they're like flying around in pain for whatever because you missed. You know what I mean? Jack, you not with me on this? Yeah, I gotta call her. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey, my name's David from Seattle area, and I was wondering if you'd ever thought about or ever made a carbonated
+
+[33:45] granita. Um, I was thinking about doing it with like a block of dry ice or um, liquid nitrogen with just some soda or something like that. Yeah, funny story. So Sam Mason, I think it was Sam Mason. I think it was Sam Mason, was interested in carbonated years
+
+[34:03] and years and years ago. This is like maybe like 2006 or 2005. I think it was Sam. Came over to the FCI where I was working and he was like, hey, can we carbonate? Uh, can we carbonate, um, you know, sorbets and whatnot in the in the tailor? We had a tailor at the school because the Carpagani was I didn't have access to the Carpagani. I had to tailor. And he was like, hey, can we do it? I'm like, I don't know, let's find out. So we tried to like plug all the holes in the tailor and like pressurize it with CO2 while it was running? And I blew the gaskets out and we sprayed sorbet mix over the entire freaking pitching. Like sorbet mix everywhere. And the short answer is, is that you can carbonate anything, but then you can't, you can carbonate a granita as long as you
+
+[34:50] never harden it, right? Because the carbonation can only live in the liquid phase. As soon as it's frozen solid than or even approaching solid. All of the CO2 will be squeezed out. So what you need to do is, uh, is keep it at that kind of like slushy area where there's still enough liquid to have carbonation and then carbonated at a fairly high level and realizing there's going to be a lot of nucleation sites and possibly filming because uh, only the liquid
+
+[35:20] will um, absorb CO2 and the ice will exclude it. So that's the short answer. And you, you know, dry ice, the problem with dry ice is you're not going to get an appreciable amount of carbonation in
+
+[35:32] it unless you keep it under pressure. And if you keep it under pressure, then you might hose yourself, right? So, um, I would, uh, you know, as a cheap way to start, I would, um, I mean, if you have a dipper cabinet, something that's not going to freeze all the way, then I
+
+[35:49] would like put the mixture into bottles, like shake carbonate the hell out of it after it comes out and then just leave it in that kind of a slushy state, uh, and then uncap and like slam out of the bottle or just cut the top of the bottle
+
+[36:03] off. Because that's what I used to do when I would carbonate gels. I would set the gels in bottles and then just cut the bottle open and then take the gel out without rupturing
+
+[36:13] it, because I never was doing it enough to like invest in a system that let me reach in
+
+[36:17] and, you know, and get a large thing out. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, and then, uh, this is just like, going back to your old streams. I was wondering if you and Stasi ever found that pair that you
+
+[36:32] were you tried in in London? No. No. Okay, the, I forget which one it was. I'd have to go back and look at my notes. I think it was, uh, there was the, uh, the Beer Superfin, was delicious. Like, it was like this like butter pear that was like, I think it was a super fine, right? I think that was one of the ones. And then there was a pair that had a really awesome, what was it? was a pair that tasted like quince that was ridiculous, so good. I have to go back and look at my notes. And no, I was never able to find it. And like the problem is in the US, obviously, is I don't live in like hyper pair country. So I've been meaning to take a trip up to Corvallis for years, but no one's, I don't know, I've never made it up during
+
+[37:13] pair season or during berry season, by the way. Although it turns out like in Connecticut, the still area in Connecticut, I am, is like the Oregon of Connecticut in terms of berries. Like we just had berries like coming out of our ears. It's awesome. But maybe I could do pears then. You never know. And I don't know if I have fire blight. Maybe if I don't have fire blight and I have pairs, maybe I can grow them. In which case, Nastasia and I will have to break back into the Brogdale, steal some seeds. I'm not going to steal seeds and bring wood. I'm not going to be that guy that throws like an entire agricultural industry into disarray by
+
+[37:41] smuggling seeds in, but if you were that guy, send me the seeds. You know I'm saying? Like, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not going to do it. But if you do it, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, we here at cooking issues are firmly against ruining agriculture for everybody. You know, we're totally against cane toad introduction into Australia, et cetera, et cetera. Nobody likes nobody likes it. What? Super muscles? What about, do you know that like the US crayfish are so strong? wiped out all the European crayfish? Wow. Yeah. That's America for you. Red, red, and blue. Yeah. I love it, right? Love it or leave it. America. Love it. Love it. Love it. Leave it. And even if you leave it, we'll bring it to you. Five minute warning. All right, so listen, let me see if there's anything that, and did Tozi ever get back to us? Okay, we had a question in. I will get this because you're cooking the cake right now. Um, let me see, from, uh, I'm gonna get down to who the question was. Okay, from Jeremy Brainerd wrote in, asking Christina Tozi about a recipe, and it says, thanks for the excellent
+
+[38:48] show, Animal Styles Entertainment. I'm working my way through the archive and about 15 episodes to go, and I haven't heard anything about this. I am making a cake for my mother-in-law's birthday this Saturday and I'm using Christina Tozi's chocolate malt cake recipe. Everything seems fairly straightforward, but I have a question about the temperature of the fudge coating. The recipe states that the fudge should be warm in quotes. when it is poured on the cake, but fails to specify what warm is. I am planning on making the fudge this week and reheating it using a circulator. It says calculator, but assuming they match circulator with Autocorrect. Hate Autocorrect. What temperature? I mean, I like it, but whatever. What temperature should I heat the fudge to coat the cake, but not make it too runny. So it runs off the sides and onto the counter. And he thanks us, but don't thank us because I emailed Christina
+
+[39:27] Tozi because it's her recipe and asked her, and Nastasio will be playing the part of Christina. Please read. Hi, Dave, Fudge should be just warmed to the touch and viscous, not super warm to the touch and not hot steaming, which would leave the fudge in a more watery, much more fluid state.
+
+[39:42] This will render the fudge thick enough to spread itself evenly across the layers without being so loose that it seeps into layers where it doesn't belong. If coating the cake in full with fudge rather than leaving naked. Make sure the cake is very cold slash frozen, 0 to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, without being TMI, crumb coating the cake versus ideal. If the listener has no idea what this means, I'd say S-T-E-T. If coating the cake, fudge sauce should be warm to the touch or a much looser fluid state because the cake is frozen, it will lock a thin layer of fudge around the cake without melting the cake or having a fudge coating that is too thick, not even.
+
+[40:17] Hope this helps. All right, so I'm going to guess like 110 something like that. That's warm in the touch, right? Fahrenheit? Sure. 10? I try 110. don't know. I have no idea. Sounds just like Christina. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. I was so fooled for a second. Yeah, and Nastasia reads with this reads with the same passion that Christina brings to her craft. No. All right. So, uh, we're running out of time. So I have some questions I didn't get to. get to him next time. We have clarification questions. We have some more ISI questions, chili questions, and questions from Alan in the UK on apples, which I'll get to because I really love the apples, and I've been juicing apples myself
+
+[40:49] recently, just did 6 gallons of cider over the weekend. Uh, and we'll get to those questions next week when we're back on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[41:14] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501c3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi there, I'm Greg from Kapal. Visit us at capau.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less.
+
+[0:09] CUPPOW.com. I'm Linda Pelacio, host of A Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Interest. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in
+
+[0:37] Brushwick, Brooklyn, out of the back of Alberta's Pizzeria, in what looks to be a container that was pasted over with wood.
+
+[0:44] Jack, why did they like fo wood this container up? Why not? Well, I mean, like, it's a container, like, you know, living. A raw container? Like corrugated. It got like, you know, 5000000000 year old reused, like, you know, upstate barn beams. Well, it looks nice, and it probably diffuses the sound a little bit because if you just had the container, it would kind of sound like maybe being in a shower or something, you
+
+[1:05] know? Mm, I don't know. I don't know, what do you think about the faux wood finished that? I like it. Yeah? Like a cabin. And a cat, yeah? Excavating for a mine. You got your sweet, sweet clementine your head? Yeah, joined as usual with Nastasia, the hammer. Lopez, how you doing? Good. Yeah. And in the engineering booth today, we have the intrepid Jack Insley. We also have Rebecca, the what's her official title with Booker and Dax? She's a booker index intern, but she's focusing very heavily on social media, which is what she's doing now.
+
+[1:33] So you should all tweet on us, please. At what handle? At cooking issues and... Heritage underscore radio. What's with the underscore, Jack? You couldn't get it away from those like weird, like, you know, It's a constant battle, Dave. The underscore. If somebody in the cooking issues army can like, you know, reconquer the regular heritage radio, Twitter handle.
+
+[1:55] We'll do something for them. Listen, I'm not saying you should find these people and threaten them. I'm just saying if you did find them and threaten them. We would gladly accept the handle without the underscore. But we're not advocating that you threaten them. You know what I'm saying? Correct. By the way, calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. I actually had to call in yesterday. I was on the cut in the curd program. Yeah. Plastic wrap. Hey, I have to do something before we start the show. I have to give the biggest shout out ever to Kevin Scott, who gave us a very generous donation. Thank you so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so much, Kevin Scott. Is that you vaporizing his enemies? Yeah, that's what just happened. They're gone. Yeah, Kevin, all your enemies, totally, totally vaporized. By the way, speaking of that, not speaking of vaporization, but who's who's kapau? New? Yeah. Yeah, they're new. And it's spelled with a C, like company. like company pal. Not like when I spell Capao, I spell it Batman style, which is K. C-U-P-P-O-W. Wait, like, cup. Pow. Yeah. Like, take the cup that you're drinking out of and don't smash into smithereens because that would be against the mission of reuse,
+
+[3:05] reduce. Actually, I guess it's reduced first, then reuse, then recycle. That's the order that we're supposed to do everything, right? It's cool company, though. Check them out. Capau.com, and you'll hit more on the break from them. What do they what do they sell? Coffee socks. Coffee socks? A coffee sock. What the hell is a coffee sock? Where do the coffee sell? Well, they got travel mugs and... Let me tell you something about coffee. I'm tells my coffee. No feet. No feet on coffee. Don't require socks. What is that? Is that like a coffee mug sock? Yeah. So you don't have to throw away the... What's a freak? What's a freaker? don't know. That sounds like something. What's a freaker, Jack? It sounds like something you would know what it is. Um, I could guess, but... Speaking of which, what was that country Sufi music you let us in with? Ooh, I'll play something on the brick. That is, actually. Thanks for the free plug. I just produced a record for my wonderful girlfriend Odetta Hartman. It's called 222. It's like psychedelic, banjo, bluegrass, weird stuff, and it just came out last week, and it's gotten some nice reviews,
+
+[4:07] and yeah, check it out. Odetta Hartman. Odetta Hartman. 222. Did she own Odetta Hartman.com? She does. Nice. But it does have like a little bit of Sufi Twang to it, don't you think? A little beer, beer, beer. I used to listen to so much koale music back in the day. So much. All right. So let's get to some questions. I know we had a lot left over from last week. Um, I don't, I gotta remember what they are, though, because, uh, you know, because I'm a bad human being, right? And because I spent almost every single waking moment working either on the new booker and Dax project, which I was going to announce today, because someone
+
+[4:47] asked us to announce it today, but I don't think I'm quite ready. Maybe, maybe next week. You out there, we're Twittering in. Some people know already because in private, I'll tell you what I'm doing, but I don't want to announce over the air
+
+[4:57] because, I mean, not like it, whatever. And what do you think stars? I'd say, announce it 2 months ago, but... Why? liability. No, why not? I don't know. Why? Because it's gonna happen. Regardless. Do we have the not the next project coming in soon? Do we know what the ETA is in that, the minor one, the cube? Yeah, it can come out by Christmas. Oh, really? Well, we do have a product coming out that's not that's not a big deal, though. I, people will like it. Okay, okay, so listen, explain it. Listen, listen, listen. Listen, this is very difficult to wrap your head around, okay? Listen. So, okay, when you shake a cocktail, right? It's been known for a long time among kind of higher end bartenders that shaking with a large cube. And by large we're talking like 2 inches across, right? Uh, creates a better texture. right? So I was doing a, I do events a lot. And what would happen is, is no one would ever bring the big ice cubes to the event, right?
+
+[6:01] We would have them at the bar, and but we wouldn't have them at the event, and then I would lose my mind, right? Because Nastasius heard me say this a 1000000000 times. Does it make any sense to donate your time, to get people to donate product, and then show up and not do the best job you can just because of an ice cube? Does it make any damn sense? Rebecca, does that make any sense? She's not on the mic right yet. doesn't make any sense. Makes no, makes no, as Chuck D, as is a quote, so I'm not, it's just not my curse. makes no goddamn sense at all. That's him talking about the New York Post, which he detested back in the day. Anyway, so you shake with the big ice cube and you get a better result, but the big ice cubes aren't necessarily sitting around. So it struck me that it's not the actual ice cube that's important. In other words, it doesn't need to be ice. It's just the shape. So then I started looking at building fake ice cubes, right? But they're not ice cubes. texturizers, right? So are they cold? Stas, I love the. I love you for this because it dead. No, they are not cold. They are not ice cubes. Neither do you put them in the fridge. They are unlike or the freezer. They are unlike a whiskey stone. They are, in fact, designed to have almost no effect on the dilution of your cocktail at all, right? No effect. Let me say this again. They have no effect on the dilution of your cocktail at all. You still have to put ice. But, but the good news is, is you don't have to freeze the big ice cubes for shaking anymore. So like at a well? Like, so if you come to our ice well and look at it at Booker and Dax, it's full of ice cubes, big ice
+
+[7:35] cubes that you're basically throwing away after one shake and they're melting into nothing, right? So it takes up a bunch of freezer space and you have to melt all this ice. Whereas you could just use the small, crappy ice and get the same texture as if you had a big ice cube just by throwing in this, what are we calling a cocktail
+
+[7:52] cube? It's like texturizing cube that has no freaking chilling ability. Get it through your head. It doesn't rock. No, because a rock will affect the dilution. No, but think of it as like it does not. Think of it as not existing other than as a texturizing effect, okay? It, it, oh, it has the same density as ice. It has, it feels the same in a shaker as ice, but it has no chilling effect one way or other. Okay? All that's doing is making it better. Justin wants to know how can it not mess with your dilution? Ah, that's an excellent question, Justin. because it has very low. In other words, it will mess with it slightly. It will theoretically, if it is warm. It will slightly cause slightly more dilution, and if it is cold, it will cause slightly less, but it itself has very low,
+
+[8:37] specific heat, so it doesn't store a lot of energy, and it's also an incredibly poor conductor, an insulator as well. So it doesn't transmit heat or suck heat in readily. So it's an insulator and it has a low specific heat. So it has almost no effect. No noticeable effect on dilution, but excellent question. Justice. So anyway, so before Christmas, those are going to be in town, but the big goal is to launch the big product on a pre-sale by Black Friday. You think we're going to do what it says? Think we're going to make it? You a Black Friday fan? Am I? 3 years. No, no, our Thanksgivings have been ruined like 3 times straight, but like
+
+[9:17] the, the, the fact of the matter is, is that anyone retail knows, you do like huge numbers at the end of the, at the end of the year. You know what I mean? Sure do. Yeah. BJD wrote in. Hey, Hammer, Dave, and Jaymal, which is your which is your nickname for the molecules. Is that the 2nd time I got a JMO? No, we just didn't get to the question last time. Oh, okay, good. I've seen nitrogen push cold toddy coffee around. Is that something I could do with my EC Whipper? If so, what's your suggested procedure? Send for my iPhone BJD. Okay, so, um, look, there's a couple different things. And people say, people, I wish people would get over. Listen, I want you next time you see someone and they're not clear. Is it cool to tell people to like lightly smack people in the face? Like a little bit? Probably not. Well, like punch him in the arm. Do it with your eyes. Oh, give them like an eyeball SmackDown. That's what Stas does 100% of the time. If Stas's eyeball smackdowns are effective. I would be like crushed into like a disk on the ground, like a thin, pasty disk, right? Anyways. Uh, so do not, and do not allow anyone else to confuse the difference between nitrogen. A, the relatively inert, uh, diatomic gas that we breathe in and turn to a liquid so that we can freeze things and nitrous oxide, the uh, bubbly, soluble, sweet, narcotic, uh, um, I should say anesthetic uh, product that
+
+[10:48] we um, used for whipped cream, right? So you could use nitrogen to push coffee around, but I would guess that you want to use nitrous. And the reason you want to use nitrous is because it creates the kind
+
+[11:01] of, um, nice texture in a coffee drink that you lose when it's not hot, right?
+
+[11:06] or when it hasn't been just made, especially espresso, which has that kind of, like, you know, that liveliness. And so it puts it puts it back in. So sure. I mean, you do it, just put it. I have actually a couple of nitrous pushed pushed recipes in my in the book in Liquid Intelligence. You just, you know, just shake it and shoot it, right? You know what I mean? unless you're looking to use your EC whipper to push out a larger quantity out of a bottle, in which case you got to go through a rigmarole and
+
+[11:32] blah, blah, blah. Does that makes sense? Jack, Does that make any sense? I've got to call her on the line when you're ready for it. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Devin from DC. I just got back from my honeymoon in Japan. And, of course, we went to the Sakiji fish market, we saw the Ikejime, which was awesome. Um, and my wife is an awesome person. So she insisted that I buy a yanagi when we walk past the Aratsugu, um, stall in the outer
+
+[12:03] Takiji market. Nice. Um, and it's one of the, you know, sweet traditional single bevel, uh, deals. And yeah, yeah. I'm really excited to use it. Um, my question is, I've never honed a single bevel
+
+[12:19] knife, and I actually don't know if that's even something that you do. I have the, some DMT, uh, whetstones, but I also have a ceramic, um, uh, steel, and would you just put the flat side against the flat part of the, the, the honing
+
+[12:39] steel or do you not even hone uh, yinagi at all? Okay, so, uh, I do things compared to what a Japanese person thinks is reasonable, I
+
+[12:50] am uh, the worst human in the world, complete enemy enemy of quality. I do not follow. I'm just letting you know straight up. I do not follow traditional sharpening procedure on any of my traditional Japanese knives, which DMT stone do you have? I have a set of 3, like, uh, medium fine and extra fine, I think. Yeah, but do you have the interrupted ones? The interrupted pattern? You have the interrupted pattern or the solid pattern? The one with the polka dots. that interrupted? Yeah, the interrupted pattern. Okay. Do you have the really really big one? No, they're like 5 inches long, maybe? Yeah. Well, like for something like this, I find it's a lot easier. I know it's an investment, but like the only one I use, really, is the very big one that has 2 sides on it, and it's the
+
+[13:40] fine, extra fine, so that's green and red in the DMT colors. And I used the big ones. It's just going to make your life a lot easier. But even so, most Japanese,
+
+[13:51] remember, you can't you can't switch. you can't mentally switch between European, American grits and Japanese grits. It doesn't work, right? Uh, but those guys are all using uh, very, very fine-grained uh, water stones. But you don't need you don't need to do that, frankly. I mean, I've been doing it for years and no one's ever said, hey, Dave, your Yanagi's not sharp. Instead, they're like, holy crap, that's a sharp. You know what I mean? Uh, and uh, the good news is, is that even though there's a mystique about this, uh,
+
+[14:20] the Japanese knives are the easiest knives to sharpen in the world, which is, you know, I guess why they can make them out of a steel that requires so much freaking
+
+[14:27] sharpening because you have to touch it up all the time. You know what I mean? Uh, so I would, I don't do anything other than, uh, I finish on the, on the extra fine and I just, um, you know, on the flat side, I will go almost 100%
+
+[14:43] flat. Like, like, basically flat. Like I would, but I won't, I won't put any force into it at all. Like when I'm going on the green, when I'm going on the less fine one, I'll maybe lift it up slightly to take any
+
+[14:54] burr off. Like when I'm saying slightly, I mean like a couple paper, a couple, think this is the paper off the back edge. Just so I'm not putting a mark on the back of my knife. And then shoom. But then on my last one, it's literally just like gliding over, over that thing. It should be almost nothing. You know what I mean? Uh, you're really just taking the burr off on that on that side. And it's, um, because remember, when you look at the back, it should be slightly con cave on that side anyway. So you should, it's not like you should be getting a bunch of scrape alongs across the back of the knife if you're doing it right. And you'll find that it's the easiest knife in the world to sharpen. It's so easy to sharpen and it's so freaking sharp. Sometimes I will, I will run the knife backward. I have a leather strap, so sometimes I'll just like lightly drag it backwards on a strap to take off anything off the edge
+
+[15:45] that it's done. But I don't I don't go to any hyperfine stuff. I don't do any like honing or polishing of it. And because you're doing it like every time you use it. You know what I mean? Every time you bust it out, you touch it up and you go. So, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I guess I guess it's a commitment. Which is fine. It's like, literally, it's like, it's like a minute. especially if you're used to it. And this is the problem I have with a lot of like big systems. So I have, um, one of the, um, I forget the name of it, but it's very popular, uh, sharpener that you bolt down and you have like the thing that holds the exact angle and it goes up to like 8000000 that goes up to like basically what looks to
+
+[16:24] be, it feels like that it's not abrasive at all. Like it's like finer than even than toothpaste and anything. And, you know, you scrape it along the thing and it maintains the angle and stuff. You're never going to use it. every day because it's a, it's a, it's a thing. It's a rigmarole to use it, right? Whereas I have a big DMT, the big DMT thing that's flat. It doesn't throw off grit. I don't need to soak it like a Japanese water stone, right? So literally, I just rinse off any grit that's on it, throw it on my surface, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap, shap, and I'm ready to cut, and then you have a
+
+[16:57] yanagi where every time you draw it through a piece of fish, you are a happy person, right?
+
+[17:03] So is it worth like, you know, 45 seconds to a minute to prepare yourself when you're
+
+[17:08] going to cut an expensive piece of fish anyway, such that you get a cut that makes you want to cry? It's so much fun to cut, the single draw through, without that line, because you had to push the other direction. Don't you hate that line when you have to push in the other direction? Yeah, you hate it. So it's like, it's totally worth the time. And so it feels like a commitment when you're starting, but when you're actually using it, it's like so much more fun to cut that way that it's like you're not
+
+[17:30] going to, you're not going to think about it. Yeah, cool. Thank a lot. All right, no problem. But I'm sure someone will write in that I'm an enemy of quality and a terrible person for the way that I
+
+[17:38] sharpen it. have another call that just came in. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. Dan, Seattle, or just south of there anyway. I've been doing pork belly at 65 degrees,
+
+[17:54] uh, Celsius for 24 hours, and as long as I do it with a drive, uh, it comes out perfectly.
+
+[18:00] Okay. I mean absolutely perfectly. But I'm trying to get, basically, to do, um, Ivan Ramen's pork belly in the sous vide. And I cannot reduce it enough to keep the texture from going completely weird in the bag.
+
+[18:18] Huh. So, how reduced is the, like, tell me, tell me what, what, what liquids are going in the bag? Okay, so it's soy sauce, sake. And I mean, I mean, he calls for mirror, but good mirror is so hard to find in the US. I just had more sake with more sugar. Okay. Garlic and ginger. It's nothing real complicated. And I mean, I reduce it. I mean, as much as I can, we do, and still, and get more of it out of the pot, then I leave stuck to the pot. Right. And it's still... I
+
+[18:51] mean, just the texture of the pork comes out completely different. Like how so? Like more spongy or more like it's poached? Yeah, yeah, it's okay, so like... When I do a drive up and I've done 3 or 4 different ones. Um, it's one of the best, best things I cook. Um, I mean, it comes out perfectly firm, but perfectly tender. It's just It's just still sliceable. Right. And you sear it off for, you know, a minute by whatever's
+
+[19:27] convenience that day. I just got the, uh, Palladium screens for my series all, and that is a very good trick. You know, can you sear it off? I mean, it's just, it's just absolutely amazing, but I cannot get this soy
+
+[19:44] sauce sake flavor profile. How much liquid is coming out of the regular dry rub bag when you're cooking? Um, Probably 2 tablespoons of fat and one tablespoon of
+
+[20:00] liquid. I mean, guessing. I mean that's cooking more or less an 8 ounce portion. Right. Now, are you on the dry rub? Are you letting it sit for a while before you bag it? Like, how much? No, I am... I just do a fairly high salt percentage, like 13rd salt,
+
+[20:17] two-thirds, two-thirds of whatever the spices. I mean, 5 spice works great. And I just, you know, mix that up, pat it on the belly, pat it on there heavy. Uh, and straight in the bag, and then, you know, just the results are too good, you know. Yeah. And you're vacuum metal with your vacuum level's the same in both cases, you think? Well, it's exactly the same bag on exactly the same machine, and I mean, I've done this with exactly the same piece of pork, because, I mean, like, Costco sells, we'll sell you a whole belly, you know, basically £5
+
+[20:50] of belly, and you, I'm pushing that out, and, um, you know, uh, put 2 or 3 or 4 things on
+
+[20:56] it, put it in the freezer. Well, how much, how much liquid would you say is going into the bag when you're doing it this other way? Probably... 2 to 3 tablespoons. I mean, I'm really trying not to put too much in there. I've been trying to put less and less since I try to get past this problem. And the less you put in is the, therefore, the better the texture or no? It doesn't seem to matter. I mean, any any starting liquid at all, and it and it just doesn't work. Um, are there some people, there's some people, I rub my sugar, man. Soy sauce powder? I mean, clearly, you can't tell saki. Oh no, there is. There's there's there is soy sauce powder. spray dried soy sauce and there's um, and there's also, um, yeah, there's granulated soy sauce. But your dry rub has sugar in it or no? My driver, what? Your dry rub also contains sugar or no? Uh, I don't think any of my dry rubes contain sugar. I'm just trying to... I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out what the differences are between them. You would think that like an extra tablespoon of liquid isn't going to necessarily make that big of a difference, right? So I'm just trying to figure out what it is. I mean, that's why I just been shaking my head about it, but I mean, you know, I, with the driver up and I've done at
+
+[22:14] least I've done 5 spies. I've done this, um, uh, more or less
+
+[22:20] Taiwan from Pensi's. I've done, um, Yeah. I've done barbecue. I mean, they all just work. Amazing, but one drop of liquid, and it just goes to heck. Well, that's the thing. I wonder if, like, in other words, let's say you were to do that. I don't know how like willing you are to mess with it, but let's say you were to do your dry rub next time, right? And you were to just throw, like, a tablespoon or 2 tablespoons of, like, uh, like, or no, stock, like whatever. like whatever you have. Like, and then see whether or not that is, uh, like also bad. Because remember also that, like, how much spice are you putting in? Is it such you have to brush it off at the end or does it all melt melt in? And like the spices are going to be absorptive. I mean, you have a, you're putting an absorptive thing into also something that has less water in it to begin with.
+
+[23:06] So I'm wondering whether or not. Like the only, the, so the thing is there's, there's added water, there's sugar. I don't think the ginger's making that big of a deal. I guess it's potentially possible, but I don't think the ginger's doing too much to the texture. Uh, you know, I've been wrong many times, but the slight amount of alcohol, I don't think is going to do anything to it. Um, especially since you've reduced the heck out of it, right? I mean, I mean, again, you know, I just, I try to reduce it until I'm like, just terrified of burning it. Right. And remember, with the amount of sugar and other solids in that, you'd also think that the water activity of that stuff would be quite low with all the added sugar.
+
+[23:46] I would run a test to see whether or not just adding a couple tablespoons of neutral liquid to your bag totally ruins the texture, in which
+
+[23:53] case you're in a situation where you might want to go all powdered, and they do make powdered everything, right? Or another thing I would do is you could add a little, like we said before, add a little sugar to one of
+
+[24:01] your. I would like next time you do it and you portion them all out, I would take one bag, I would add sugar to your dry rub, to the sweetness that you think you're going to get. I would do another one, throw in a couple tablespoons of water, see whether that, what that does to the texture. Obviously the taste won't be the same. And then you could kind of work from there, figure out which one it is. At the same time, you can go online. I know a lot of powdered soy sauce, spray dried soy sauce, granulated soy sauce. I seen them. I've seen them all The, um, I had one last thing, but I forget what
+
+[24:30] it... I have one last thing, but I forget what it is. Geez, okay. Oh yeah. Do they taste both like they have the same level of salt in them when you're done? Um, Well, I mean, they're just such different tastes. It's sort of hard to judge. Right. Because another thing is, is that salt in the thing is going to firm up the meat. So if it's a lack of firmness, it might also be that you're just low on salt, in which case,
+
+[24:54] uh, I would, you could like throw salt, but I don't want you to over salt it. But if the soy sauce one is not as salty as the one that you normally make, then what you could do is salt it down, put in the reduced
+
+[25:06] stuff and go, and it might bring you back to where you once belonged. You know what I'm saying? Got it. So those are the things that I would try. I would try to try to make a judgment in your head about how salty the soy sauce one is when you're done. Uh, see whether sugar has an effect, because I don't think we have, I don't think I've ever really cooked a lot of meat in a bag with a lot of sugar. I don't I don't know that I have. I'm sure someone has on Twitter here. they'll chime in. Jack, is anyone chiming in on this stuff? Not yet. Someone chime in on this show. Chime in. Chime in on the boards. But anyway, let us let us know how it goes. Thank you very much. Alrighty. Hey, Jackie, you left it. yeah, let's take a really quick break. I've got a caller on the line, so call her, stay tight. We'll get to you in just a second. First, a few words from Capau. Americans throw away 58000000000 disposable cups every year. A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know, but I'm Greg from Capau, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's 100% U.S. made. You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at
+
+[26:09] kapau.com. CUPPOW.com.
+
+[26:43] You see, man, standing in a boy, he said, brother won't see, baby. So I had to play a little tiny piece of that because, um, it's such a, it's such a cool coincidence. You asked about that music before the show started. I told you I produced that album for Odetta Hartman. So the name of the album is 222, and it just happens to be episode 222 of cooking issues. What? Isn't that weird? 220? We've done this 222 times, Dad. Shockingly, yes. Oh man. That's your girlfriend's voice. That's it? Dude, you gotta you gotta hang out with the Sabri brothers, man. Yeah. Sweet, sweet, mockful saber, you could do some, some, uh, koala chance with that. I'd be sick. Put, put, you know. What? Nothing. No, I remember what you listen to. I think he's the dead one. I forget which one of the famous Sawbris is dead. Maybe it's Mach Bull. don't know. Anyway. Oh, call, call. yeah, call her, call her. on the air. Hey, hey, hey, Dave, how are you? Doing all right. Okay, so I had a friend ask me this question, so I'm calling you because I couldn't figure it out. So, he had about uh, 15 leaves of fresh bay that he infused
+
+[28:05] into, um, some leather bee gin from Chicago. 2 ways. Once he blanched it, and the other time he didn't, and both times he stored it in an airtight container, and it was a really great green color initially, but then turned a nasty brown after a couple days.
+
+[28:20] I'm familiar with Nasty Brown. That's my nickname. That's right So his question is why did that happen? He thought at least the blanching would have killed those those enzymes and he could have had a great color. Well, like, uh, like, why
+
+[28:40] is it oxidizing over time in straight gin? I mean, a lot of times you'll get oxidation, so I'm trying to figure out how
+
+[28:47] to how to prevent it. You would be, you would if you blanched it enough. Well, okay. I mean, bay leaves are tough suckers, right? Because they're so thick and waxy. Like, I don't know how long he blanched them. Um, but... I have never had good luck with... I got to be honest, I've never had good luck with bay leaves because it takes forever to infuse them. And they don't nitro muddle well. Um, and they're so tough. Why are they turning brown? I mean, certain things are going to turn brown like, like, uh, what if you dried it first? Dried at first? Yeah, but I guess that kind of kills the fact that you're using fresh, right? But what if you what if you dried it first? Because, you know, like, that's an easy way to keep mint really, really just not from turn brown, right? is to dry it before you before you put it in to this stuff. Or, um, like, why is it that chlorophyll from spinach in, like, chartreuse just never turns brown? Why? Right. Right. Do you think if he tried a different infusion technique instead of maybe like a vacuum infusion and ISI,
+
+[29:54] you would hold the color better or? He's just doing natural regular natural infusion, right? So I think it would just it would accelerate it, but I don't think it would prevent anything from happening. And also, Bay Leaf isn't appreciably watering it down. So it's not like you're changing the, you know, the environment of it. Um, I don't think of bay leaf as being hypergreen anyway. Do you, Stas? No. You think of it as being olive drab, right? I've used Fresh Bay. Tastes good, hard to get into, did it taste good to stuff? Um, I don't know. I haven't tasted it. I think he said it tasted okay. So he's like, he's letting you look at it, but not letting you taste it. is so wrong. It's so wrong. No, no, no. Okay. Uh, he's texting me. He says, it makes it awesome. Oh, okay. And did it taste any different after it turned brown? Ooh, I don't know. Let's see what he says Yeah. Because, like, most of the time when things are turning brown, there's
+
+[30:54] a there's a concomitant, uh, uh, oxidized taste as well. Right, exactly. He says that it doesn't taste any different. Yeah, then you know what else? You could also, you could freaking cheat. You know what I mean? You can just add some some like chlorophyll, some green style, go like go Chartreuse on that. No one accuses no one accuses the Carthusians of being bastards just because they put a little spinach juice into
+
+[31:17] their product. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, how do you think they do that? They put all those dry brown herbs into it, right? Because I've seen the buckets that they pull the herbs out of and then they, you know, they make it all nice and green. Well, I guess they distill it. comes out clear. And then they add, yes, like, they say it's chloro- they chloro- it's chlorophyll. Okay. Where would I find that? Modernistfantry.com? They probably, you know what? If they don't have it, they'll probably buy it. And also there's like all kind of people who think that chlorophyll is going to save their their guts from like, you know, the ravages of whatever they do or do not do to them. So people, you can buy it on
+
+[31:53] Amazon. You can buy chlorophyll powder. Okay. And, you know, instead of making, you can make it from spinach, right? And there's plenty of like, what's it called? YouTube videos on how to get the green out of spinach without the kind of nasty black
+
+[32:06] stuff to color things green. Pl plenty, plenty. Uh, and that'll probably punch the, punch the green up. As long as the flavor of the of the liquor is not going oxidized and bad, then I would just cheat with the color rather than like worry your head about it too much. Okay, awesome. That's great. Thanks so much, Dave. Hey, no problem. All righty. So, uh... Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, is Elliot Patner from Chicago? Hey, Elliot, what's I hear you got in an argument with someone over who is the true Elliot. Apparently there's like, you have dueling Elliots. Yeah, there's some beef born out in the chat room. I don't know what's going on with it. Nice. Yeah. I got a question for you about cooking some sausages this weekend. So I made 30 lamb sausages. Uh, yeah, last night, and I'm gonna be cooking my, um, a weber grill and, you know, weber charcoal, weber gas, you know, I have a
+
+[32:58] stoke top available to, thinking about doing like a poach and a grill, but I need some advice on
+
+[33:02] timing everything. Okay. Uh, what, like, what are we talking here? Like, Mergez, what size are we talking? Yeah, well, it's a, it's that kind of mixed, but it's a regular, like, hog casing. Okay. So what I always do on this, I would go, um, a lot depends
+
+[33:20] on like whether you need them to look 100% perfect, but I always prefer like the, the high, the high heat finish. So like, they know, if I were you, it's no offense to people in their, in their gas grills, but I've never had a gas grill that I was like, yeah, that's really freaking hot.
+
+[33:34] Like that really makes me feel happy about my life, how hot it is. Have you ever encountered a gas grill that made you feel happy about your life? No, it makes me serious power for that. Yeah, power. Right. So I would, I would do like the big charcoal and I, and I would go like, you know, uh, my average temperature to finish things is roughly kind of like as close as I can get it to the surface of the sun, uh, because you can't really
+
+[33:56] overgo on, uh, on a charcoal uh, heat like that. It's not like using a blowtorch. You can't go 2 over on it. So I would go like super hot like that. Then I would do, are the people that you're going to feed it to at all squeamish? No not at all. Okay. Then I would do 140 degrees, which is, oh, plus it's lamb anyway. well, but you have pork fat in it, right? But it doesn't matter. It not going to be black. No, I didn't use any pork fat. I used all lamb fick. Pre good supply. Oh, yeah? Was it nice and firm, the fat? Did you, like, does it, does it lamb have like a firm enough fat to really? Yeah, you know, I, I, um, I weighed out about 20%, but I think my yield probably got like somewhere between 15, 20% at the end, you know, because
+
+[34:35] it streaked a little bit at the end, but I waited afterwards, the stuff I took out. Right. I think I'm September between 10, 15. If you're doing, if you're getting smear and you're, uh, and like you're doing lamb fat, then like low temp is 100% the way to go because that way if you were going to get like a lot of bleed out, if it wasn't going to hold,
+
+[34:52] then, uh, then low temp, you're going to like be a freaking champion. You know what I'm saying? So most normally with any sausage, I'm doing uh, I do uh, 60 Celsius, which is, you know, 140. All right. I should be able to get that on the stove because I got an electric stove and it's got pretty good temperature
+
+[35:10] controls. That should be fine. Oh, you don't have a circle? You don't have a circulator? No I don't have a circulator. Honestly, I assume circulator. Yeah, but you can do 140 is not that hard. So I would I would do it in water in bags. And I would put what I typically do is I put, oh, you could do a poach. Remember that time? Did we do beer that time, Styles? Yeah, you could do it that way too. You can do a you could do a poach. You can do a poach. But if you made the sausages, man, they have circulators now for like, like they're almost free. They're almost free. I got to get one of those. They're almost, they're getting. I like going over the wide fire, so they got to, they got to keep it a little rusty. Yeah, all right. But anyway, so yeah, so like, oh, you know, another thing you could do, you could do the old school. the way that people, you could get like a cooler, calculate the weight of sausage, and then the weight of your poaching liquid, and then like dump it in and let it just cook through and settle down, and then you
+
+[36:03] could just pull them out of the out of the vat as they go and go bang, bang, bang, right? So, like, if you have like a stock that you like the flavor of and you know that it's like, um, well, you just have to calculate what
+
+[36:14] the what the finished temperature is, and they're not that big, so it doesn't take that long to cook them through as long as they're submerged.
+
+[36:21] So, uh, you know, like, you know, like half hour or something like that. And so... Yeah, and I got lamb stock already too. So I could put that in there and then finish them on the grill, just pull them off and put them plate. Yeah, so then you could like take the cooler, like you, like a couple hours beforehand, you put the water, you know, you put the water in at the strike temperature, which, you know, any homebrew shop, any homebrew site will tell you how to calculate strike temperature for things like mashes. And, you know, and, um,
+
+[36:47] it's, it's a little bit different because, uh, you have, you have to assume that the thermal mass or sausage is roughly the same as water, right?
+
+[36:53] So you figure that unlike, I don't know how they calculate. It been a long time, whether they bother doing the calculations on thermal mass for when they're doing malt. I don't know. But anyway, check it out. But and a bunch of other people have calculated the strike temperatures for cooking low temp in standard 5 gallon coolers before
+
+[37:12] or whatever you want. So anyways, so like a couple hours beforehand, you do that. And then the temperature slowly drops over the next over the couple of hours, which is actually a benefit to you because it means that you're not going to overcook on the finish, but they'll still be warm,
+
+[37:26] right? So win, win, win, pull them right out with tongs right on the freaking, like, hotter than the sun grill, your brothel tastes better. You can use it later, make a sauce with it, and as long as it's very, very flavorful liquid, it's not
+
+[37:39] going to ruin the flavor of your sauce, it is too much. Yeah, it's gonna be good. But get a circulator. like, how much do they cost now, Stas? Yeah, they're like 150 bucks, right? Yeah. Well, look, I'm gonna tell you, like, whatever holidays you may or may not celebrate. get someone to get them because like it's gonna make your life so much easier with the stuff you're doing. It'll, it can, depending on what how you cook and what you cook, it can save you money in the end because, you know, you know,
+
+[38:02] you'll never gonna... Chat room's going nuts. We got Christmas coming up and my birthdays are right around there too. be good to go. Get a circulator. But what is the chat room saying about this, Jack? They can't believe he doesn't have a circulator. Maybe he's not. People, people, chip in. Get my man Elliot a circulator. Come on. Come on. Come on. He's asked so many good questions that you guys have heard the answers. I'll say this, though. I can solve the real Elliot question. Oh. Obviously the next donation that comes in from an Elliot. That'll be the real Elliot. Oh man. Oh man. All right. Okay. So, do we do we talk about the... Do we talk about the, do we talk about Mastiha last time, Mastiha? Okay, so we got yeah, right. We talked about it. We didn't ask George's question because someone else called in about Mystica, right? Very hard to keep track of what's going on. Oh, this one actually. Uh, would be good for, um, this one would be good for the, the, the Twitter verse out there that
+
+[39:00] what do, what do you call the people on the heritage radio say? What are they called? What's the chat room called? Oh, I don't know. We had to come up with a name for that. I don't know. Yeah, you gotta do that. This one in, because, like, I'm gonna just say right now that my opinion is not good. Here we go. Joel Stowe writes in on Chili. Hey, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and whoever else is hanging around, which is Rebecca today. It's getting to be chili cookoff season. You fan of Chili's. What kind of chili do you? Any kind of chili? Wait, what do you mean? any kind of chili with curry? Yeah, it's not chili, so let's not get into this conversation. Oh, yeah. Remember, Stas probably makes her chilly without cumin. So, like, she's she's automatically... Wait, you hate human? that what you said? I just don't put it in. It's not chili then. I know. It's not freaking chili. get to the question. Okay, okay, okay. And I'm really looking to put some effort into finalizing my recipe this year. I haven't heard you speak on the topic at all. So do you have any special tips, tricks or modern or otherwise it might make a good chili and put it over the top? I don't know if a circulator would help at all, but maybe there's something interesting that can be done with the initial chili mixture. Do you have all a favorite brand of blend of dried chilies, a favorite method of adding extra flavor, beer, chocolate,
+
+[40:12] marm eat, anchovies, tomato paste, beef bones, bourbons. You like using short ribs as the meat. Any tips would be most appreciated, love the show, Joel. Okay, so listen, I'm gonna want people to tweet in because I don't, I'll tell you how I make it, but I don't think that I have
+
+[40:24] any, like, like, my tricks, like, aren't, aren't amazing, right? Like I use a pressure cooker and I over, over, overdose on, uh, on alliums, right? Because they, they, you know, get kind of totaled in the pressure cooker, right? I use like hyper reduced. What I do, it's super, it's fast. I'm not doing like chili cookoff. Like, I'm not like trying to be like the best human in the world on this. I just, I'm going for kind of speed, but I used like a hyper-reduced stock, which I blend with, I blend with a mixture of dried
+
+[40:59] chilies. It's usually like whatever I can get, but I like I like a mixture. I like, I don't like them like hyper smoky. like I like I'll throw a couple of smoky ones in, but I like like, you know, like a mixture like Guajillo and Pasilla and like some
+
+[41:11] others and not that spicy because my family won't won't do it, but I like a good blend of dried chilies.
+
+[41:15] Uh, blend that with the stock and the Vita prep. Uh, and then I'll pre- I'll sear off all of the meat in the pressure cooker and then throw it in, uh, do off the alley and throw it in with the, um, throw it in with the, uh, with the
+
+[41:30] hyper reduced stock blender with the chilies. Then I'll pressure cook that down, pull it, reduce the stock, blend in
+
+[41:36] into, then I'm going to blend in the tomato paste, not before, and, oh, I also sometimes put in beer and or tequila. But then reduce it, then add it back to the meat and then stir it and go, that's typically how I do. I also, I also fold back the chicharones. if I'm using, I usually put some pork. By the way, I didn't mention this. I usually am using some pork in there too, and I fold some crunchy chichirones back in when I'm done. Uh, but I don't really have any good tricks, but I'm sure the people on the chat room will have excellent chili chili tricks. Is anyone giving us excellent chili tricks, Jack? Not yet. All right. So how much longer do I have? Like, no time. Alan, Alan from the UK has apples and we need to think about some Apple things for him for next week. And then we have all of this week's questions, including ones on Chickpea, Aqua Fablo, which we will get to the next time on cooking issues.
+
+[42:35] Thank you to everybody in the chat room, and if you're listening on iTunes or in the podcast, be sure to tune in live every Tuesday at
+
+[42:45] noon and join the conversation live. Thanks again. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage
+
+[43:02] Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us with questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501 c 3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi there, I'm Greg from Kapal. Visit us at Capau.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less.
+
+[0:09] CUPPOW.com. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you late and live. The Heritage Radio Network, from Roberta's Pizzeria Inn, where is us? Where's this where? Yeah, that's actually, you know, that's not bad. But swear. Oh, my God, oh, it trailed off at the end. Bush with Brooklyn. Carry questions 2718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Jack Insley, our intrepid Jack Insley is in Madison, Wisconsin today. What he doing over there? you know? He sent me a picture of him with cows. Cows. Cows. All right. We'll have to ask him that when he gets back. Instead, we have Liz. Hi there. Very excited to be here. Nice. Well, I'm sorry, I'm so freaking late as usual, but it means you get an abbreviated 1st time engineering with us, but hopefully you enjoy it. And we have Rebecca. Hello. Hello, Rebecca. Running the chat. Oh, Rebecca's running the chat. She is Booker and Dax's social media director. It sounds like a camp counselorship. Social media director. Director's fine, or like something more powerful. All right. Well, Stas is calling up last week's questions. I have him up and the one that you should get to is... You know which one it is. It's a chickpea. Didn't we, I didn't answer the GP? I read it. Uh, Vegan internet has gotten very excited here over making meringue on a chickpea cooking liquid. Turns out that the liquid from a can of chickpeas, which people are calling aquaflava with whips up like egg whites. previously, I previously made vegan meringues, Pablo, et cetera, using Verse Whip 600 K. And this stuff works almost as well. Here's my question. I don't usually buy canned chickpeas. I prefer to cook them in my pressure cooker. So far, the liquid from my pressure cooker. For my pressure cooked chickpeas hasn't whipped up the same way. When I tried it, it only got slightly frothy, didn't foam up at all. Any guesses as to why it doesn't work like liquid from the can. Okay. First of all, I prefer it when you use... Quit. Quit. All right. Well, I don't know. I looked up on the internet last week or the week before, I can't remember. And there is a person, I forget their name, because I have it on the file from last week, who was successful in making their own, um, their
+
+[2:51] own like, uh, Aquafaba with uh, chickpeas. A couple of things I would look out for. First of all, I would find this person on the internet, whose name I wish I could remember, who made their own. I think my Google search was something really simple, stupid, like DIY,
+
+[3:06] Aquafaba or something like this. Um, They, I think, were using. I remember from your question that you were, you were not getting the consistency that you wanted when it was done. Now, remember, you have to let it cool off to see what kind of backset you're going to get from any
+
+[3:20] starts that comes out of it to see what the actual texture's going to be. And then I also noticed you said that if it wasn't the right texture, you boiled it down. Maybe you're doing too much boiling. My recollection is the person who is doing it online was cooking it for a relatively short amount of time, like they were soaking overnight, and then they were only doing something like a 15 or 20 minute cook at 15 PSI. Now that maybe, maybe too low. I'm not sure, but they were also probably using less whutter to do it, but some other things you might want to look into. Because remember, the way that they make canned chickpeas is they soak
+
+[3:54] chickpeas and then they put them in the can with a prescribed amount of water and then they put them in a retort, i.e. a pressure cooker until they're done.
+
+[4:02] They cook them considerably longer than 15 minutes, I think. But anyway, that's how they're actually made. So you should be able to do it. I wonder whether you're using a different variety of chickpea. There are 2 I mean, there are a bunch of different variety tools, but they're, you know, the 2 main varieties are kind of the larger, uh, uh, you know, American kind of ones in
+
+[4:20] the in the smaller uh, ones, like Indian style ones. And I think all of the canned ones in the aquafaba is probably made from the larger ones. Now, I looked up and the Aquafaba website, they still haven't, I guess, gotten enough money to figure out what the science is behind it. So, you know, presumably there's a protein in there that's whipping up, whipping up, and presumably also some
+
+[4:44] starch thickening breaking out of it. So, you know, perhaps you're being too gentle and they're not getting busted up enough and you're not releasing enough crap into the water. I don't know. But I would look up that person on the web who seems to be able to get, because
+
+[4:57] they said that they whipped it up fine because they also don't buy canned a chick peas. What do you think? Good. Good? Did I hear a call coming? We do have a caller. Here he is. All right. Call her, you were on the air. Hey Dave, it's Alex from New York, New York. I have a question about deep fryers. Oh, yeah, I love deep fryers. Our countertop, deep, deep fryer is a waste of time, the electric, um, ones. Okay, okay. So waste of time is such a strong term, right? So I think that, like, they can often be, it depends on what you're willing to put up with and what you're trying to get out of
+
+[5:34] it. How many people you cook for on a regular basis. About eight. No, don't do it. No. Okay. No. You know what? Uh, like, uh, so, like, what I would do. Um, what I do in New, my deep fryer at, uh, in New York City now, I took my, my big deep fryer, my 30 gallon, my nice one up to, uh, up to Connecticut, and I have it outdoors, so I'm testing my, my
+
+[5:57] years long espoused theory of putting a professional deep fryer outside. And by the way, so far, good idea. By the way, people, so far, good idea. Um, I keep it covered, obviously, and I drain the oil, don't leave it in there, et cetera, et cetera. And I only use a stainless steel fryer there. At home now, the issue is, the good thing about the countertop fryer is that you can walk away from it. How powerful is your stove? How powerful is your range? I have no idea it's a stock New York City apartment stove? No, so weak. So you might be, you might be, no fence. We, you might want to get, uh, see, here's the issue, right? Is that the problem with those home fryers is all they're giving you is
+
+[6:39] basic thermostatic control, right? They're not really protecting the oil in a way that a professional deep fryer would
+
+[6:47] be. you don't have a cold zone. Once you don't have a cold zone and you're, and you're, you know, you're having the issue where the oil is like cycling too hot and going around and you have burning particles at the bottom of
+
+[6:58] the, of the fry bucket, you're automatically, you're not going to be in as good a shape as you would
+
+[7:04] be, um, basically in any other circumstance. I would get an induction burner, right? and use the induction burner as your as your fry
+
+[7:15] kettle, because you can kind of set those fairly nicely, and you can set them a little bit higher than you want, and they'll kick in full blast when they start cooling down, or you can just set it with the numbers.
+
+[7:26] I actually wouldn't thermostatically control it because those things, unless you have like
+
+[7:29] the meld or some new thing that can control the induction accurately, the problem with the old induction temperature control things, it's based on
+
+[7:38] like a little a thing embedded in the surface of the of the of the platon, which is not good for
+
+[7:44] frying because it's too slow. But anyway, an induction is nice and fast. You're not going to have problems with ignition because you're not using it around an open flame, so it's inherently safer. And the thing is, is you can get a much larger kettle of oil going with one of those things than you can with one of these countertop deep fryers because they're assuming that you want to make like 3 French
+
+[8:04] fries, and they're also assuming that, you know, that they're going to get sued left right
+
+[8:08] up, down in the middle if they actually provided a fryer that was big enough to accomplish anything kind of reasonable.
+
+[8:13] Remember, when you're frying on a pot in a kitchen, you want to be very careful to not overfill the oil. I have, like, an astoundingly powerful range. And so I actually do a lot of my deep frying in New York in a wok. But I have a burner that can handle a wok. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, and the good thing about a walk is that as it starts boiling and even though it's shallow, as it starts boiling and expanding, the
+
+[8:38] lock gets ever and ever larger. So your odds of boil over in a walk are very, very low. And the solids, the burnt crap in a wok is like kind of
+
+[8:47] condensed in kind of a little shallow spot in the bottom, and so I can scrape it out as I'm going. It's much harder in a regular pot to try to scrape that
+
+[8:56] stuff out of the bottom. Now, if you also like Asian cooking and you know you're going to live in a New York City apartment for a long time and you have your kitchen near a window. You might want to go invest in an actual wok burner. That induction walk burner. I've never personally used one, but I've heard that they're freaking sick, but they're
+
+[9:15] expensive and the other trick is you might need 220. I think almost all number 220 because they're strictly pro. But they throw off very little heat for the amount of power that they have and they would probably make a good deep fryer. But I haven't seen a lot of people use it for that application, but that's what, you know, that's what I would be angling for if I knew that I couldn't beef up the gas
+
+[9:33] because I didn't own the joint. You know what I'm saying? Maybe you're on the joint. I don't know, in which case, if you own the joint, put in a good freaking range. Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense. And is the outdoor deep fryer actually worth spending all that money in time on? Is it better or should I just stick with the pot on the stove? It depends on how what your, like, innate love of frying is. Like frying is such like a part of me that, like, for me, it's worth having. And if you're ever going to do a party that's primarily fry for like 20 or 30 people and you're going to do that even like 2 or 3 times a year, then having a professional deep fryer that just stays rock solid at the temperature that you want and can
+
+[10:11] bang, and can bang out, you know, like like £10 of fries an hour or better. That's not even, that's nothing. Like for a commercial fryer, that's nothing for a home fryer, banging out 10 or £15 of fries in an hour is a pain in the butt. And remember, when I'm doing it, I'm really doing more like, I'll do like £6 in like,
+
+[10:29] in like not that long, wait a while for the next flight, another £6 and it's the ability to just put a lot of product in and still maintain high quality of your
+
+[10:38] oil that's the hallmark of one of these professional fryers. And you can get, like on the websites, you can get a not, not the best. I don't have the best one, but you can get like stainless steel kettle, which is what you should going for, tube fryer, for not that much, I think. I mean, expensive, but I think I think you can get them under a grand. I think I spent less than a 1000 on mine. And, you know, you have to convert it to run off of a propane tank and you can run them off of a £20
+
+[11:06] propane tank. No problem. Probably not when it's extremely cold, you probably have some problems then, but, you know, in normal kind of weather, you know, you can run it for a good, a good length of time off of a single 20
+
+[11:20] pounder, and it's freaking awesome. But you have to be extremely safe. You have to know, you know, kind of your distance from your house and all this other kind of stuff. It's not something that you should do if you're not comfortable like with, uh, you know, safety and like doing things to code. Gotcha. Well, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much. All right, happy frying. Okay. You got another question that we didn't answer? Did we do the food safety one for duck comfy? Read it. Okay. Hey, Dave, Nassasi, Jack and Co. I have a food safety question for this week's show. I'm visiting my parents this weekend and found 2 bags of duck comfit in their 2nd fridge in the 2nd fridge. So I was like, oh, the 2nd fridge. Yeah, I have like a bar, a hotel bar for it. you're thankful to have it. You like it. You love it. Anyway, go ahead. That I made at Christmas. Wait, wait, they made the phrase of Christmas? The concert was made at Christmas. Made it Christmas. Normally, I'd have not problems serving coffee that's this old, but I looked and realized the jelly never got taken out of the bags like it would have been
+
+[12:24] had I made the confit traditionally. I gave the duck legs a traditional overnight cure with salt and spices, then vacuum sealed them with duck fat using a food
+
+[12:32] saver style sealer. They were then cooked at 80 or 85 Celsius for 12 hours, iced down quickly and have been refrigerated ever since. Because the jelly was still in the bag, I meant to transfer them to the freezer before I left at Christmas, but I guess I
+
+[12:43] forgot they're still in the fridge. The bags look like they still have a perfect seal on them and there is no bloating or discoloration or anything. That said, with traditional confit. I always read that you need to remove the jelly for long-term storage. Would I be risking botulism or other contamination if I serve them? Would you serve them to your family? Thanks, Jeremy. Okay. I would not throw away the coffee. I'm just saying, it's not in it's not in my soul to throw away the confit. But, look, a lot depends on like kind of what your salt levels are and everything like this. But the good news about botulism, the great news about botulism. And you also can't guarantee, by the way, that you don't have something bad growing in
+
+[13:19] there, just because the pack hasn't is still tight. Like, they don't, they're not, not all gonna produce gas and be your friend that friend. In other words, be an indicator that way. However, good news about botulism is that botulism toxin is itself
+
+[13:33] heat labile. You can destroy it. So what I would do is I would just take those bags back up
+
+[13:41] to, like, you know, 180 or whatever and let them ride
+
+[13:46] for, like, or even lower. You don't even need it that high and let them ride all the way through to redestroy all anything that grew in there, any bacteria that grew in
+
+[13:55] there and any botulism toxin that's in there.
+
+[13:59] Now, there are some heat stable, right? So you got your sheet stable and your heat laid out. Why the hell do they have them run? So stupid. Stay by a labile, stay by a labile, step out. is stupid. It's like it's like inflammable, inflammable. They both mean that catches on fire. That's the dumbest English. Like I love our language, but it's the dumbest. Anyway. So, uh, I, I, there are some uh, heat stable uh, and tarot toxins, but I don't think that they're going to grow in those situations. Is there any way Rebecca, while working. You can, like, do a quick Google audion on that thing and see whether or not there are any heat stable and pterotoxins that will grow in a vacuum bag. Hey, or what about the chat room? Isn't that what the chat room's built for? Come on, chat room, hook me up. But yes, I would just heat the heck out. I would heat the heck out of it, and then I would, I would, I would eat it. You know, also, I would, you know, I would pretend that I'm trying to be nice and I would just eat a bag myself and wait a day to prove that I was still good and I'd be like, no, serve it to my family. After I already ate that
+
+[14:57] delicious crispy piece of confit. Don't you like when the coffee gets crispy on the outside? Love it. Love it. But you know what? I don't like it when people don't crisp up the outside of the skin enough on the coffee. makes me so sad. You know, I would crisp up the skin on a deep. Deep fry? What? Oh, seers on. Wait, did you answer this one on Roselle? We do have another color, though. Oh, caller. are on the air. Hey, Dave. This is Z from New York. How you doing? Good, how are you? All right. I apologize in advance. I've been listening to your show from the beginning, and I'm only at episode 60, so these questions may have been asked recently,
+
+[15:32] but, uh, well, that's good, then I'll know the answer. So, um, I'm going Apple picking this weekend, and actually something I heard your show way back from you, um, was someone called in asking about, uh, being able to basically cook a, uh, bacon apple kind of in its
+
+[15:48] shell. So soaking a peeled apple in novo shape or calcium lactate, and then cooking it so that it's still crunching on the outside,
+
+[15:55] but soft on the inside. Um, so modern dispantry stops selling novo shapes. So I got some calcium lactate, haven't been able to find any suggestions on what
+
+[16:04] percentage to use, how long to soak it, whether I can do it in the oven. I don't have a, um, I don't have any sous vide, um, capabilities. So, um, looking for some ideas on that. And then I had a 2nd question too. Ah, okay. Let me think. So, okay.
+
+[16:25] So you want to strengthen the pecked in using lactate, without an enzyme. I mean, really, I mean, you could probably do... Calcium will do it. I'm just trying to think the best, you said you don't have a vacuum machine? don't. Yeah, I would just needle. I would just, like, very finely, like, needle prick the outside of it, make sure you're acidify it so it doesn't get all nasty, and then just, uh, you know, exclude all the air in a zippy and let it soak for a while and then
+
+[16:54] do, like, a quick, a quick poach in the calcium to try to get it into the, like, low, low temp po. So try to approach the temperatures that people would use to do a pectin methylesterase reaction, like the way Steingarten used to in potatoes and stuff like that. Um, which I forget, somewhere in the 60s, I think, or 60s or low 70s or somewhere in there. Um, and, you know, and then you can bring it up from there, but let it let it soak it in that bag, just try to exclude all the air in the zippy and
+
+[17:23] do it that way and see whether or not you get, uh, you get a good, uh, reaction. Why did they stop selling novel shape? Not enough people buying it. Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Come on, modernest pantry. I'll look into it again, but give that a try. I mean, like, the things that people mainly use to strengthen things aren't actually calcium lactate, they're using things like, um, calcium hydroxide, you know, uh, pickling, uh, pickling lime, um, And doesn't that make it bitter? And you just have to soak enough out of it, that you
+
+[17:55] could kind of do bitter. Yeah, so what you do is you soak it in that for a while or a while. And then you take it, you take it out after after it's been cross-linked and then you just have it with regular calcium, soak that stuff out and go. But that's what most people, I mean, that's what pickling lime is for. You know what I mean? And also, the variety of Apple that you use is going to, is going to be, I mean, so you could go, I think, like, you know, the all of those ossified vegetable protocols are online and you could do this a similar thing with an Apple, I would
+
+[18:23] guess. But then, yeah, you just want to get the kind of the nastiness out. Right, right. Cool. And then my 2nd question was, I'm planning on smoking and then frying a turkey. Wasn't know, didn't know if you've done that before, had any tips. There's not a ton. I watched a couple videos online, but um, not a ton of, uh, instructions in terms of how long and and temperatures for the smoking portion. Oh, oh, well, I mean, you're gonna actually use the smoke as a cook. Yeah, I think I think that was a plan. I was trying to get it really smoky, but then still and then fry it for like 10, 15 minutes at the end. That's kind of most of what I read said, like, smoke it for 2 or 3 hours. Um, and then fry it for like 15 minutes. Um, if, if. I mean, what I look, I mean, like how temperature controls your smoker, you can get a good temperature control. Yeah, yeah, it's one of these pellet smokers that has a really accurate temperature control. I mean, to 5 degrees. All right. Well, 5 degrees is good enough. So if you can maintain, I mean, the thing is, if you're going to deep fry it anyway, right? You could probably keep the moisture up and almost treat it like low temping smoking. You know what I'm saying? some people do or just get smoke it however you want. cook it through, cook it. Obviously as low a temperature as you can to have it be cooked the way you
+
+[19:38] want it. I like mine in the, it's really okay to cook the breast and the leg at the same temperature as long as you're not overshooting by a lot. In other words, like the ideal breast temperature for me is somewhere like 64 and the ideal lake temperature for me is somewhere like 65, 66. So you're talking a couple of degrees different, but really, if you, uh, if you dry salt, the breast area, especially like on the inside and stuff, uh, you can take it up to
+
+[20:04] 66 and it's not going to kill anything. You know what I mean? It's going to not be quite as moist, but it'll still be fine. And then I would just let that sucker cool. I would pull it out, let it flash off in the air, right? That's to trick. That's the trick to deep frying, is let something that you've done, low temp or anything else. Let the sucker, and you probably already are going to get the surface tacky, right? Are you a pellicle guy when you smoke? Do you get a nice pellicle on stuff? Um, I haven't really looked into it, looked at it too much in the past, but I've read about it. The trick is, is that however, like, however you smoke it, right, before you deep fry it, you got to pull it out when it's still warm and let the surface get dry. That's the secret to deep frying anything is to have the surface be not wet. If you want to get a crisp surface on the outside, but you're not going to need to fry it for 15 minutes because it's already cooked. So especially if you're going to do it that same day. like I would jack the. See, most people when they're deep frying a turkey, what they're going to do is they're going to reduce the temperature of the oil, which is good for the safety thing, especially the way people deep
+
+[21:04] fry it. People are lunatics with their turkey. They'll have like a wet turkey. theyll stick it in. And then like you get like this geyser of oil, the oil sprays up, they've overheated it. It falls on their burner and then all hell breaks loose, right? But if you, um, if you are already have a cooked turkey, you don't need to go low, you can go up at regular fry temperatures. Now, this is also unsafe, but the way I do it, because I don't bust out the big turkey fryer, is I always do like kind of a ladle fry, so I'll just ladle the hot oil over into a pot and keep it going, but that's its own, that's its own bunch
+
+[21:35] of safety concerns. But you shouldn't need 15 minutes on the fry to get a nice crispy skin. So long as it's dry. If it's wet, then you're going to need to lower your temperature on the fryer and fry it longer to get a
+
+[21:50] crispy cream. But remember, then you're also going to have that dry, overcooked, like a couple of, you know, millimeters of meat all the way around. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, totally. Anyway, good luck with it. tweet us back. let us know how it worked out Yeah, for sure. Thanks. All right, cool. I have a Twitter question for you What do you got? Well, there are a couple, but this one's exciting. Does Dave have any updates on his new Booker and Dax product announcement that you want to share? Yeah, I don't know. Let me think about it towards eight. Let me, let me, let me, let me think on it. Okay. What is your next question? Uh, his name is Nathan. He's headed to Mexico City in early March and wants to know what establishments he should visit for eating, drinking, and what he should bring back. Oh, man. What you should bring back is you should bring back a nixtomatic grinder and either a matate or mano, if you have the, if you're willing to bring it back,
+
+[22:46] like, if you will, look, if you've never been to Mexico before. I've only went once to real Mexico, the only other Mexico's I've been to has been like, you know, like Nogales and stuff, which no offense to Nogales or any border
+
+[22:55] town for that matter. It's kind of like, you know, not, you know, whatever. I'm not going to say anything negative about nogales. But at least it was in the early 90s. I don't know. Maybe it's awesome now. Rebecca, you ever been to Nogales? have not. Liz? Can't say I have. Are you are you guys denizens of any Mexican border towns? Tijuana. How is it? Is it nice now or is it a hellhole? Um, it was it was a horrible experience. I think I had to go to the bathroom in a bucket, but that could be a grossly stereotypical statement, but it happened. went to the bathroom in a bucket, huh? I had to go and it was a long time to get past the border. So girls got to do what a girl's got to do, right? Was it a fancy bucket? I think it was like a wooden bucket. Ooh, that's kind of fancy. That's kind of fancy. That's kind of a strong statement. You're like, this bucket is made of wood. I'm going to poop. Vintage. I'm gonna poop in it. That's awesome. I like that. You know, I had the opposite experience. Well, I didn't, I didn't eat when I, when I go to Nogala, see you're, you know, you're in and you're out because you're like visiting relatives in Arizona and you're, you're boom in and out, but like, uh, uh, in Mexico City, I ate whatever in the hell I wanted and I was
+
+[23:59] 100% fine. Now, of course, I'm an animal, Anastasia, fond of saying, I am not a human being, and
+
+[24:05] so, like, I'm not, like, you should not... I broke my foot yesterday. Yes, I broke my foot yesterday. But that's a separate question. Anyway, but so what should you do? You should get it next to Matic. You need to go to Merced, the market. There's a craft market whose name I forget that you should go to that has actually some kind of good stuff. But you should go to, you need to go to Merced like every day. And when you go there, you need to have this one lady whose name I forget, her squash blossom quesadillas
+
+[24:33] are like, you know, sepaku worthy, like, and they make you so angry. They make you so angry on the kind of how things work here in the U.S. and you realize when you have what she makes or people of her ilk. Uh, and she has the good moss and everything. But when you have it, you realize kind of why Mexican food is so terrible here. And it's because, um, We aren't willing, I don't think, as a culture, to pay, uh, what it would cost to have an American make that style of food at
+
+[25:07] that, like, level of ingredient quality here in the US. Do you know what I mean, stars? It's like, it's like, we calculated it because I showed you the pictures. How much how much money would each one of those quesadillas have cost? Oh, like $20 per case? Yeah, right. And you have to hire like a fancy, and then a fancy like chef who's going to charge you $20 for a quesadilla is going to like fancify it
+
+[25:27] up, and then it won't be the same kind of like simple, awesome thing that you just like, you know,
+
+[25:32] like can eat and tell you plots over there. You know what I mean? And so I think it's like you're caught, you're caught in this kind of situation where it's
+
+[25:39] almost almost impossible to do kind of just straight ahead stuff at the same quality that they do
+
+[25:45] down there. I don't know, it's great. Anyway, go to Merced. Uh, and uh, people on the Twitter verse here, come on with some good freaking things. I'll ask fabulous too. You should ask Fabulous who, you know, Fabian Von Howski from Kuntra. He is from Mexico City. So, I don't know. Anyway. Whoa. The Mac, someone's Mac died and came back to life again. All right, Stas, you got any... Did you answer this, Roselle? Hibiscus? No, give me the question. Okay. I have a £one bag of Rosella flower pod in the hibiscus family that I got from a local farm share in Houston. I'm interested in if you have any suggestions on how to preserve, use them in cocktails, as well as any suggestions on cocktails that would accentuate their character. Liquid intelligence is lacking any mention of hibiscus, unless it was mentioned on one of the 10 pages that have been torn out of the Houston public library's
+
+[26:36] copy. I've seen 8 ounce jars of roselle pods and syrup sell for as much as $10 and plan on preserving some that way, but don't know if these pods would have to be prepared in any
+
+[26:46] way, being emerged in a roselle syrup. I'm traveling to New York next week and I'm looking forward to checking out Booker and Dax. Cheers, Jamie from Houston. Hey, Jamie, from Houston. Um, you know, I've never gotten the, uh, I've never used fresh. I only have ever used the dry. I've used the, I've had the ones in syrup. I'm presuming that they just preserve them by boiling them in a sugar syrup. That's how they do them, but I have made a Booker and Dax. In fact, there might still be on the menu. Uh, depending on how they feel right now. It goes in and out of the menu, a hibiscus drink. Now, hibiscus tea is obviously, you know, the non-alcoholic drink is hugely
+
+[27:23] popular and it's also very popular in cocktails. What it brings, hibiscus is like obviously besides its awesome color because Lord knows I love a pink drink, right? Yeah, love a pink drink. People out there. When I say people, I mean, like people who are worried about drinking pink drinks, like, why are you so worried about drinking a pink drink? Do you know a lot of dudes that are worried about drinking pink drinks? In theory, yeah, I do know. But the thing is, like, I maybe like when I was like 20, I would have been like, I'm not gonna order the pink drink. I want to look manly. Now, I'm like, wow, I wow, I don't care what you think about what I drink. Like, that's the advantage of getting older. And I guess being a drinks professional is I can really order whatever in the hell I want at any
+
+[28:03] time and no one's going to give me crap for it. Isn't that nice? Hey, Rebecca, what do you think of people that order like a man that orders a pink drink? What do you think? I think I would like to shake his hand. Yeah, Liz, what are your thoughts? Takes a brave man to order a pink drink, but I'm sure there are plenty of really
+
+[28:19] tasty pink drinks out there that even a guy can appreciate. many, many, many. Many, many. Anything with Campari. Pink Panther? Yeah, Pink Panther, Booker Dead. Although it's not freaking pink, Derek. The pink, the onion one. Oh, the Debbie. Look, what I'm saying is, is you got to get over it. over the color thing. You have... There are 3 women here telling you that you should not worry about it.
+
+[28:44] And you know what the problem is, is you have to rock it. If you order the pink drink, you can't be like, I'm sorry, American prank, I order, nobody likes someone who is sheepish about the stuff that
+
+[28:54] they, uh, that they have that they order, right? It's like same thing with clothing, right? Like you see the one dude with a peacock feather sticking out of his head, but if he rocks it, he rocks it. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, uh, on the high base case. One of the issues with hibiscus and alcoholic drinks is it can be slightly astringent, the way that the acidity works, it can be a little bit much in the back end. So when we use hibiscus, we do infusions directly into the
+
+[29:18] liquor and then we milkwash it. So you just use a, do a direct infusion of the hibiscus slash roselle slash, whatever you want to call it, into the
+
+[29:28] liquor, like a gin of vodka is nice. Have we done rum? I't know if we've done rum. And then just do a milk wash on it, and it'll suck some of that stuff out, and the milk washing technique isn't liquid intelligence, and then it mixes like a champ. drink, drink, drink, champ. I'm a drink camp for those of you who like that song. You have one minute. One freaking minute. All right. I'll tell you a quick story. Alan from Apple from the UK. We need to talk about apples, but I'll give you a couple an Apple thing. Also an update. Okay, Nastasia and I, Booker and Dax, are working on a centrifuge for home. I'll get let you just say that. And this weekend. I have an interesting cider technique that I came up with because I have this apple tree that I didn't know. So I, I, I use the centrifuge on the, on the apples to spin out all the extra yeast and it's good. I also, my Apple, my cider technique is kind of crazy. So, like, we could talk about it next week if we have time. But I'll leave you with this one story. It's kind of cooking related because like I like in the wintertime, I cook with wood in my wood stove, right? Okay, so there we go. Wood cutting. So, these freaking, uh, so, you know what, like, a log jack is, you know, like, it's like a cant hook that fits into the, like, like, clips onto the log and you roll the log over so the log's off the ground, right? And so that you can chainsaw into it and have your logs come off, right? Right? Right. So, and by the way, the moral of the story, in case that I forget at the end, the moral of the story is, is that it's a poor craftsman that buys crappy tools, right? It's a poor craftsman that buys crappy tools. Now, if you're going to buy a tool, use it once and then never use it again, then roll the dice and buy a crappy tool. But if you plan on using it all the time and you buy a crappy tool, you're a
+
+[31:05] dunce. I'm a dunce. So anyway, so I buy this log jack. I buy the cheap one, which is weird. I spent like, you know, like months trying to figure out what chainsaw I was going to get. I got an old, like, professional Huskvarn I used, a very good price anyways. So this logjack, right? The 1st time I use it, it bends. I'm like, crap. And so like, now I'm going down. I need to start cutting firewood because it's fall, right? So I put the logjack on, I put, and it won't pull the log over Sarah anymore. So the log keeps flopping down, right? So here's what I do. Here's what I do. This is teaching me. This is this is the world teaching me not to be a dunce. So I take the logjack and I jam it down and I'm like, I'm, so I cut a small log off that I can get to without burying my bar into the ground and dulling my
+
+[31:48] blade. And I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I have, you know, the mask on and everything. I'm going to put the, I'm going to put the log jack down. I'm gonna sit on it. Sit on it in a freaking log pile and brush. I'm going to sit on this freaking log jack. Already people who do this for a living. know I'm a jerk. And like, and I'm going to shove this piece of log under it so that the log itself can act as its own
+
+[32:07] log jack, right? But I'm like, all of a sudden, as I'm down on the ground, my butt on the ground, and I'm shoving a log underneath of a pile that I've just lifted off the ground that hasn't been lifted off the ground in
+
+[32:17] years, because this was a blowdown from Sandy that I'm trying to chop up. For some reason it hasn't rotted yet. And I see on the inside of my helmet, uh, like a hornet or a yellow
+
+[32:26] jacket. And then all of a sudden my body goes on fire. And I've got chaps on. I've got a protective helmet, and they have zoomed out of the ground, up into my clothes and all in my helmet, and I throw the helmet
+
+[32:39] up, and I'm running up the driveway, like trying to unbuckle my chest, my chaps around my ankles, slapping my head, slapping my
+
+[32:45] back. I got like 15 bites from these suckers. And I was just like, you're on freaking fire and the entire way up. At 1st I start screaming for someone to come help me like rip my clothes off and then I'm like, idiot, why did I buy the bad logjack? Why did I buy the bad freaking logjack? And I could not retrieve my helmet for 2 days? Because I disturbed their nest so much that I couldn't get anywhere near that vegan? My wife went down to look at the helmet and she got stung. Just getting near the freaking helmet. So I poisoned the hell out of the helmet and I can get it next week. But my point is, don't buy the crappy tool. Cooking issues.
+
+[33:40] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[33:55] You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi there, I'm Greg from Kapal. Visit us at Capau.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less.
+
+[0:09] CUPPOW.com. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Kurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from
+
+[0:37] Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, on time. You may call on your questions too. 718-4972128. That's 718-497, a 21, a 28. Joined in the studio, as usual, Nastasia. Hammer Lopez. We got, you going to say, hi, all right. We got we got Jamal, Jackie Molecules, Jack Insley back in the engineering booth today. Oh, there we go. Mike wasn't working. I back. Yeah, yeah. And where did you go? Should I tell this story now? This is actually really good story. Yeah, well, then wait, because you gotta wait till the show's over if you want to tell an actual good story. And we also got, we got Rebecca on the mic, who is the, what's your title there, Rebecca? Um captain of social media. Captain, huh? Styles, is that your idea? I like that, no. Recommend you, captain? Yeah, I just made it. So, like, then who's Tenille? Is Jack Tennille? My Tenille? Oh, a good show name is Captain and Chenille, and she's like making quilts and stuff. That's very strong. that yours? No, somebody else's. Yeah, Captain and Chanel, but he's making the quilts. Right, yeah, that's right. The captain. Is he alive? Yeah. Yeah, all right. Uh, is that a call? We got a call or is that just like someone ordering pizza? One second, Dave. Anyway, so we've got 2 callers on the line. I'm going to make them wait real quick so I can get this story out of the way. So I was flown out to Madison by the Wisconsin milk marketing board to go on a cheese tour, tour some
+
+[2:11] cheesemaking facilities. They are a supporter of heritage radio. So I decided with an extra day in town to go drive over to Milwaukee. Just to check it out. So I drive to Milwaukee. I kind of do my research, see what the best bar is. I go to this bar, Bryant's, which is like, um, you know, a prohibition era, uh, bar that has like a 500 drink menu. You can't order. You just tell them what kind of spirit you like. They make you a drink. They won't tell you what's in it, that kind of thing. I asked the bartender for advice. And he's like, oh, you should go check out this red light ramen thing. It starts at 11.30. So 1130 at night. I wait in line to go for ramen. The bartender finds me and he goes, oh man, I got to bring him to the front of the line. So he introduces me to the chef. This place is called Ardent by day and then Red Light Ramen at night. And the chef Justin is like, holy shit, you're jack in the booth from cooking issues. And the whole kitchen, apparently. Big supporters, big listeners. He points to a slushy machine. He's like, this is my old-fashioned slushy. I called into the show and Dave's advice is why this drink is here. How was the drink? It was damn good. I might have had a few too many, but it was damn good. So lots of cooking issues love in Milwaukee was pretty awesome. Yeah, Major loved to Milwaukee. Milwaukee, nice place. Justin Aaron and Matt, they're all awesome. I've only spent in my life, maybe Noastasia is yours as well. 4 hours of our lives in Toto, in Milwaukee, but they were a very good 4 hours, right? That was like the same for me. Yeah, it was really in and out, but it was really really good. I like it. Milwaukee. Nice town. And then a quick shout out, of course, to Johnny Hunter and all the underground beats people that I got to meet in Madison. You never met them? Johnny, but I didn't get to meet everybody else. They were all big listeners of cooking issues there. Yeah, they're nice. They got a really cool setup out there, too. Yeah, the beverage director at 4 quarters. His name's slipping away from me, but big listener, awesome dude. Just all around great stuff. I got to see them making their black garlic in a crock pot too. Yeah, well, Johnny was the one that told me that you can go higher than everyone said on black
+
+[4:11] garlic, and it tastes like a little bit different, but it's like a boat ton faster. So, you know, so he's doing his black garlic at a much higher temperature than other people.
+
+[4:19] And like... But is there any other kind? I guess they still make crock pot. By the way, I shouldn't we shouldn't keep the collar waiting, but listen, I got to tell you this. There's like, there's this, like, one of these websites that sells crap on the internet. In fact, they sell, I think, the egg thing, maybe, that Paul gave us, but they also sell this thing
+
+[4:36] called like Wolf Washer 360, which is a hula hook with water that you wash your dogs, but they have a cookbook they sell. Get this. Dump meals. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Dump. Dump meals. You just want to dump it in. Dump. Why would you want any meal called dump? I got to go take a dump. It's your meal. Right? Why would you ever want to do that? Someone should try it, though. It's like, literally, it's what was the recipe that they say on the commercial? It is a pork shoulder. A Dr. Pepe. Dr. Pepper, Dr. Pepe, Dr. Pepe. Well, it's what it is. Pepsi, Pepsi, Pepsi your brain and Pepsi your butt. Dr. Pepe. So they got the Dr. Pepper and I think barbecue sauce, and you throw it in, but no pre-browning, nothing. Just like a like an unbrowned pork shoulder in the in the crock pot. So we're about to take collar, but before we take the collar, we have joining us now in the
+
+[5:25] studio, uh, Don Lee, uh, have a seat, gentlemen. Don Lee, cocktail overlord. You say, accurate, cocktail overlord, and a father, Bill Daly from
+
+[5:38] the, yeah, from Notre Dame Law School, Notre Dame, but also, uh, hold a second. Don, have a seat. I mean, I don't want to call. call you like, I don't want to call you the cocktail priest, but you do, you know, you you know, like all the major players in the cocktail world and you, you know, you don't overindulge in the cocktail, but you enjoy, you know, you enjoy the cocktail,
+
+[6:04] right? I enjoy it very much. I try not to overindulge. Yeah, well, and I've, you know, I, look, I have seen him many times at Tales of the Cocktail are a yearly debauch down in New Orleans, and I can say firsthand that
+
+[6:18] Father, Father Bill always has control over the situation. But let me take a caller real quick. We have 2 callers. They'll just have to like fight to see who goes first, I guess. Well, don't you get to pick? I put them both on. They're literally both on... They can both hear. Oh, all right. So start. Not a cocktail question. The other one is. Well, I don't care. We'll take all questions. I mean, you know, Don and Father Bill like to eat too. Right on. Mind the turduck in question. Oh, nice. Okay, go ahead. Where are you from, 1st of all? From DC. My name's Jason. Hey, Jace. All right, so last year was maybe like my 4th
+
+[6:57] production, and did it roughly along the line of Kenji's method, which is, uh, you know, chicken and
+
+[7:03] duck, and then in the water bath for a few hours, and then um, fry to render and crisp the duck skin, and then put it in the turkey suit and roast it for an hour. Um, I took the ducks. I took the chicken skin off and had some pork and rabbits
+
+[7:21] offage in there too. So anyway, what I'm looking to improve is mostly the texture of the duck skin. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you are. Is it worth taking it out completely? And then, and then just, I don't know, using some of the duck fat somewhere else in the thing. Yeah, I mean, yes. You're never going. I mean, I always do skin. I always do in my internal birds, uh, skinless because it's never going to be crisp. Now, look, there are whole cultures that love, like, a highly rendered, uh, like, nasty, unless that's not the way, I don't mean
+
+[7:57] to, nasty, like, birdskin. Like, think like, uh, Hananese chicken or something like this. It's going to have like a rubbery, gooey, gluey, and that's the deal. That's what, but most Americans, like I can, I can train myself to love that because that's who I am, right?
+
+[8:13] I can be like, but the same way that Americans can't stand apples that have different textures from what they're used
+
+[8:18] to, they can't stand poultry skins that have different textures from what they're used to. That's especially the case with duck, like especially the case with duck. So I think that pretty much you're going to be host, unless you, you could do the old uh, modernist technique of taking a dog brush to the duck and instead of doing
+
+[8:38] the, um, the low temp, you could do an actual roast on it, cool it down, then throw it inside the turkey
+
+[8:44] skin. It won't be crunchy anymore, duh, but it won't have the giant fat cap underneath because it will have rendered out a lot of its
+
+[8:52] fat. you know, but otherwise, duckskin is such an amazing thing. Like to do anything like, you know, evil to it is like harmful to the world in general, I think.
+
+[9:02] Like, um... Just duck cracklings. Put it in your stuffing. mix it in. There you go. a good one. Render it out and sprinkle it on the salad that you serve with it because that's going to be delicious. Right? Yeah, now, is there any way to get of like the, to get the transglutaminates, to glue
+
+[9:17] the duck and the, I mean, the duck and the turkey together? Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah, I do it. I mean, even after it's cooked. So you're pre-cooking your duck and then wrapping the turkey body. By the way, like, listen, just from a technical standpoint, you're overcooking the duck. Now, not as like not as far as like an old school European is concerned, but as far as like a modern person is concerned, you're overcooking the duck.
+
+[9:40] Am I right? No, it was, well, I mean, I did it around 140 in the water bath. was pretty good. Oh, 60. So you just did a really, really rare chicken. Yeah, the chicken was, you know. The chicken was also not over cooked. Right, no, but the chicken, for most people, that's going to be way under for a chicken is my point. Most people aren't going to want the chicken until it gets up to about 63, but most people are going to want the
+
+[10:05] ducks somewhere between 57 and 58 somewhere in that range. Okay. Well, by that standard, the duck was probably overcooked a couple of degrees. I think it might have been under a degree. It's fine. Look, it's all fine. If people like the way it tastes, but I just my feeling is that the chicken is going to be a little translucent still at that temperature, is it? Uh, you know, frankly, I don't remember. I mean, if you can stand a 3 stepper, I would make a tube out of the chicken, do that thing at like 63, 60, 64 even, 63,
+
+[10:36] 64. then transgutaminates the outside, wrap that, and you can do it when it's still warm. Wrap the wrap the duck around that, do that sucker at like 57, 58. You can do it at 6140. It's actually a perfectly good duck, but it's no longer, depends. If you want that really rosy red medium rare duck, then you need to be at 57 for like an hour.
+
+[10:56] But if you want, like, higher temp duck is legitimate, and that's the way that, like, a lot of old school people will cook the duck. They wont have it rare anyway. A lot of old Frenchies don't like really rare duck, in which case, by the way, like the temperature you're doing, 60, perfectly acceptable. I don't want to, I don't want to be. not trying to be a jerk. Like that's perfectly acceptable. It's just most modern Americans who are serving a duck breast abreast. Rosie rare will want it lower, right? But that's not what you're doing here. So ignore my other. And so you can cook that at that temp. I think 63 or 64 is a little high for it though, right? So you could do the initial chicken at like 63 or you could just invert them. You could put the duck on the inside. That's another option for you. Anyways. And then, yeah, I would cut the duckskin off, and then I would render it out as Don said, that was Don, by the way. in crackling form. And I've seen Don put away many duck cracklings in my life. Many, many, many. The many ducks have been have been slaughtered for to, you know, not even St. Don's duck
+
+[11:54] crackling... I converted a vegetarian of, I think, 7 years back to meat,
+
+[11:58] Cooking Duck Cracklin's college door. That was John DeBerry. John DeBerry was a vegetarian. When I met him, he was a vegetarian until... Mexican, yeah. Can't say no. Anyways, is this helpful at all? Oh, oh, gluing the transgutaminates. Can I can I put it in the fridge before I put the turkey food on it or should I do it all warm still and not
+
+[12:18] re-thurm it before I put the turkey skin on? Oh, well, okay. So as long as there's no way for product to get into it, it's fine if it's, if it's, you know, if you cool it down, because if you've cooked it long enough, you've pasteurized everything in the inside of it, I mean,
+
+[12:34] the, the, the kind of real, uh, you know, danger happens when, um, you have mixtures that can get recontaminated as they're cooling and then they cool down, uh, or if there's big air gaps or
+
+[12:46] or whatnot. But, um, you know, I think you should be, you should be fine. If it's all heated all the way through and safe. Like the super danger, obviously, is like the person who puts cold stuffing into a bird and then shoves said bird in the oven and it takes like 4 hours for the stuffing to get up to temperature and by the time that happens, all sorts of nasty interotoxins have been created that, you know, you know,
+
+[13:11] that that's what you don't want to do. But, you're not going to do that. You're going to be fine. All right, cool. I like the rabbit sausage. Can I use duck fat and sausage or is that going to be just a terrible disaster? Uh yes and no. Like, if you're taking a sausage and you're, um, you mean like cube, not like once it's rendered, obviously, it's a nightmare, right? Unless it's an emulsified sausage, are you doing an emulsified sausage? Well, no, no, no. I was going to make a chunky sausage and stuff it in there with all the rest of the meat. You can add some, but just be aware that if it's been rendered already, that's
+
+[13:47] going to bleed out like quickly, you know what I mean? So if you're, you know, if you're doing a low temp one,
+
+[13:53] it, you know, you could get away with using other fat. I mean, look, someone on Twitter, in the Twitter universe over here, like, you know, right back and say that I'm wrong, you've done it 8000000000
+
+[14:02] times and here's how to do it, uh, and, you know, Rebecca and Jack can tell me whether anyone, you know, chimes in on that one, but, um, that's
+
+[14:09] my, that's my feeling. I've made... Josh says don't use duck fat and dry sausage. No bueno. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah. I've used portions of, you know, I've made like duck hot dogs and stuff, but I usually supplement it with like pork fat and I'm using unrendered stuff when I go in or if it's
+
+[14:25] emulsified. You know, you can get away with it, but not on your chunky sitch, I don't think. Are you tweet us back and let us know how it works. Okay will do. Cool, thanks. You know, we used to do an entirely... Second caller still there? Oh, 2nd caller. You were on the air. They left. They hate us. It was a long wait. It was a long wait. was too long to wait. That was my fault. take that one. Sorry about that. We used to do a low temperature turduck in, but I think it was a little too low temp for everyone because it was kind of like on the rare
+
+[14:55] side all the way through. The idea we, when we were doing it was we lined up all the birds in the order they wanted to temperature wise, be cooked to. So turkey wants the highest temp. chicken wants the next highest temp. Duck wants the next highest temp, and we threw a squab in, which by the way, squab delicious, wants the lowest temp. And so like, uh, because why stop with turducking? It's just because they don't have squabs, I guess, much in, you know, Louisiana. They could. I mean, they have all kind of small game birds. They could be shoving some sort of grouse in the middle. would be good. How about a little order lawn in the very center? That's more French, man. I guess they're French E, but they're not French. All right, we got the 2nd caller. Second color, you were on the air. Hi, David, this is Andrew from Pittsburgh. Hey, how you doing? Good, good. Long time listener. Um, I've got a couple questions. Just stop me since too many. Um, 1st question was, I don't know, like 2 or 3 years ago, someone who was trying to do the, the, the caramelized little pieces that come out of a sweet potato, like those delicious brown pieces. Right. Oh, a little like, you think I ever get back to you with how I figured out how to do it because he, I think he did it once, but didn't remember how he did it. Wait, wait, he's trying to harvest the little beads of syrup to get crunchy on the outside of a sweet potato. that what we were talking about? Yeah, but he had somehow figured out how to do it in like a pressure cooker, but he'd only done it once and never repeated the results. Did you did that strike a bell at all? No, I made once. My pressure cooker, like the one that I go to bed crying about every once in a while is I made a durian caramel in a pressure cooker once by accident and didn't record enough of the information to ever be able to do it again.
+
+[16:28] And that, I, you're making me sad even thinking about it because like, if I could have nailed that recipe, like, and that's why you should always write down what you
+
+[16:36] do. But no, dude, Stas, is that ringing a bell and sweet potatoes? Must have been a long time ago. Yeah, it was a long, long time ago. But... I was thinking, I was thinking, adding some animals to it. blending up the sweet potato and then pressure cooking it. Do you think that could, and then possibly lowering the, I'm sorry, raising the pH, um, to see if you could get like just to really jazz up the Meyard on it with that. Right, but I mean... The crunchy stuff is mainly a sugars thing, right? So they, the, adding the base is, uh, I forget what it's going to do to the sugar, but it's definitely going to up the my art. if in fact, it's my art that you're that you're shooting for. Um, and hitting a sweet potato with analase will increase the sweetness to the detriment of the starch, but I don't
+
+[17:25] know. I don't know what that'll, I don't know what that'll get for you except for maybe increasing the yield. I look, I've tried to make sweet potato cocktails by jacking with amlase and I've never had any luck. I've never had any luck. Don, you ever had any luck with sweet potato in the cocktail? Never worked it with it in a cocktail. I tried. Well, no, that's the only amylace thing. I've also tried. I tried once. Um, I tried once, uh, using, um, the kind of endogenous
+
+[17:51] ammalay stuff in, uh, in a sweet potato, uh, doing like the, uh, pre-cook, like the long, low pre-cook. Again, I didn't feel like I made them that much sweeter. You know, you can make a carrot, a good bit sweeter by cooking it below the pectin softening temperature for a long time, but I never had a lot of luck with a sweet potato perceptively. In other words, I'm sure it did boost this sweetness, but I wasn't like, best sweet potato I've ever made my whole life. You need to do this all the time. You know what I mean? When we say sweet potato, though, are we talking like Asian sweet potato? We're talking American sweet potato here, Don. Because I was going to say, like Asian sweet potatoes, you roast it. You know, turns really sweet. You can even chop it up and deep fry it. It gets nice and crunchy. Get a little mayard on the outside. Do you like sweet potato fries? you one of those people? Not the yellow American kind of sweet potato fries, but a traditional Korean Chinese hybrid
+
+[18:38] dish as a dessert is chunks of the kind of the Japanese purple on the outside, wet on the
+
+[18:44] inside, sweet potato, chunked up, deep fried. Delicious. Yeah. I
+
+[18:51] don't like, I'm going to go out on a limb here and get everyone mad at me. I don't really, I can eat sweet potato fries. I like 2 of them. I tire of them quickly compared to like, you know, an Irish potato, we'll call it, even though they're not from
+
+[19:04] Ireland. French fry. You know what I mean? with you on that. Yeah, style? Stas hates all French fries. That's it. She doesn't hate them. She not a fan. She just needs some champagne to go with it. Yeah, then annually... Dave, how do people believe that? a healthy and responsible choice compared to regular fries. You don't seem more adult. Wait, what seems more adult? I think people order them in restaurants because the sweet potato fry seems like, oh, that's something you would put on an adult dinner
+
+[19:28] plate, sweet potato, as opposed to the French fry. But aren't you supposed to be, it was Father Bill. Aren't you supposed to be, like, optimistic about human nature as opposed to so pessimistic that that's how shallow we all are? I guess they need to be taught. That's why you're a priest. Instruct the ignorant. It's a spiritual work of mercy. Yeah, there you go. Rebecca, what were you saying? Do you like to eat your sweet potato fries when you dip it in maple syrup? Because that's what I like to do. I'm sure that's good. Like, you could make a good dessert. with this sweet. But here's the problem. Sweet potato fry never has the proper texture of a French fry, and it's got that sweet potato taste, which I find better as a kind of a roasted kind of a situation. I'm not hating on sweet potatoes. I love sweet potatoes. I just don't think the fry is that the best. It's like they very rarely have the right kind of crust interior ratio. They very rarely have the right oil to potato ratio and there's something deeply not the best about them. I also, I'm going to go on record and prep people everywhere. will know what I'm talking about. I detest uh, peeling and cooking sweet uh, cutting sweet potatoes. I hate cutting sweet potatoes. I hate the noise my knife makes when it goes through a sweet potato. I hate the way that like they shatter like right when you're like 2 thirds of the way through the freaking sweet potato. There's nothing about fabricating sweet potatoes in the kitchen that I enjoy. Nothing. That's because you're using yams. Use real sweet potatoes. not a problem. whatever, man. You know what, you know, it's the worst thing ever, like, my favorite Nastasia moment right after she started working with us, was, uh, we had those, uh, those, like, long, slimy, like, sweet potato weed things, you know what I'm talking about, Don, those, yeah, nag, what are they,
+
+[21:07] nagmo, nag? What are they called? Oh, that you grind up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're basically a mucilaginous nightmare. And let me just put it this way. Their shape is suggestive. Suggestive. And so we had one peeled. It was all, it was a bunch. It was one of those days when it was mostly dudes in the kitchen that day. And so we peeled one, Nastasi goes to pick it up. It's all slime. it all slimy. Picks it up, shoots this suggestive thing across the kitchen because she squeezed on the tapered end of it too hard. It hits the wall and shatters into a 1000000 pieces, and all the dudes were like, ah. Remember that? Wow. Yeah, yeah. All right, I'm dropping the I'm dropping that last call. Wait, wait. We have a follow. Rebecca's got to follow. Okay. We had... what's going on Hold on. I gotta get it. I'm sorry So Sean Andrews wants to know, how do you make the sweet potato fries crispy like you were talking about, and could you do it in the oven? I don't, look, I'm going to say I haven't worked on it enough to know. Uh, because like, I, look, to take on a problem. I have to love the problem. Do you know what I mean? Like, now this is a good problem. in the sense that like, like, I understand what you're trying to say. Was that Andrew wrote in? Look, I understand what you're trying to say. What you're trying to say is, hey, look, there is something to salvage, right? There is something savable, as Father Bill might say, in the sweet potato, french fry. I haven't seen a glimmer of it enough to devote the time and energy necessary to actually suss that out and figure out whether that
+
+[22:44] is, like, really there. There's a couple of problems. Generally things that are deep fried, certain exceptions, donuts, blah, blah,
+
+[22:54] blah, don't want to be as sweet as that because you can't get the crust formation without burning the sugars involved,
+
+[23:02] right? So you're going to have a very high percentage of sugar on the exterior, but you not only need to cook it to a brown,
+
+[23:11] which, you know, trivial. You could do that with, but you need to dehydrate it to the point where you actually have a good texture. So what I would do if I was going to do it. I didn't talk about my layers. By the way, I'm turning as I get older, I get lazier and lazier and lazier. You know what I do now? On the weekends, 1st of all, it's gonna seem like I'm not talking about the same thing, but I am. So Dax, you know, my younger son, Dax, has decided that he is actually a child
+
+[23:36] of the 1970s. And so requests baked potato bars as a dinner thing. Yeah, it's good. It's really delicious. And so I've been like slamming like, you know, the big baking potatoes out of the oven, you know, prick it with a fork, rub it with oil, salt, throw it in the oven for an hour, like 70s, you know,
+
+[23:53] big pile of fix ins to go with it. Strangely, Dax chooses vegetarian chili, but whatever. I'm not going to judge. It's his 70s. you know, you know, I lived the actual 70s, but, you know, whatever. We'll deal with his version of the 70s. And, uh, and so anyway, I've started just making an extra 5 potatoes when I do it.
+
+[24:10] And if you just take a properly baked sweet potato, probably baked regular Irish potato, russet, Burbank, good old-fashioned America, Idaho,
+
+[24:22] NU, throw it in the fridge. So remember, baking it, you haven't added any water, you've actually dehydrated it some. You've cooked all the starch out, so it's fluffy. You put it in the fridge and let it sit for a day. Now you can cut it properly. That stuff fries up amazingly well. Like amazingly well. So, you know, because you've done a lot of the moisture management and pre-cook when it's still in its potato
+
+[24:44] form. And is it as good as my hardcore French fry stuff? No, but I end up just disking it, making home fries, and like that kind of a home fry. I have to say, they're really good. Now, back to your sweet potato problem. Could you do something like that with a sweet potato? Perhaps. Perhaps you could roast a sweet potato hole, chill it, fabricate it, uh, and now, and let it drop, let the outside dry off, like partially dehide a little bit like just in the
+
+[25:08] air, and then fry it? Could you get a good result? I'm not going to say you can't. You know how people get a good result with sweet potatoes or what they call a good result? They cheat and they batter those suckers, which is why there's so many battered sweet potato products out there because then you separated the problem of trying to create a crust in an impossible place, the surface of
+
+[25:24] a sweet potato, and you've instead shifted it to, can I make a good crust on the outside? And obviously you can. Obviously that's possible. I was just going to say, Japanese sweet potato tempera. Yeah, although don't get me started on tempura, all right? Have you ever had tempura that was like... I gotta drop that sweet potato call and get to the next guy because we're backed up here. All right, all right. Have you ever had a good, you ever had a good tempura? Really good? I still haven't been to that new temporary bar, like that place that just opened up here. Here's the thing. They're like, you know, you need to have it right away. No, why? No, no. It's just a, no, no. Tempura is delicious, but is it the is it the height of frying? It is not. It's the height of tempura. It's height of tempura. its own thing. But I'm never, in other words, like that, like, the kind of Japanese ideal of, like, the incredibly blonde, non-browned crust, uh, that's good for exactly the amount of time. So like most, and I've had good tempura. Most of it by the time it's cold enough to eat with, like, it's already crap. You know what I mean? Anyway, we have a caller. Do we have a code? What if you did a shoestring, sweet potato? Hard to fabricate. That's what I'm saying. shoestrings are so hard to fabricate. You could probably pulp a sweet potato and then make some sort of like Pringle-esque kind of a situation. Are you a Pringles fan? Sure. can't stop. Oh, wow, that's true. What about you, Don Pringles? I like using the can to make a cantana. What's a cantana? What's a cantana? So Wi-Fi range extender? Holy crap. Don, Don, like, Don is his own Mofi. He plugs his phone into his forehead when he runs out of battery juice. What about you, Stas? Pringles. You know what I don't like about the Pringle? I like them. They're good. The texture. There's something about the texture. like scraping on the roof of my mouth. There's something about the texture. I know what you mean. They're good. I like them. And, you know, that was one of the most fantastically expensive things ever in terms of food R&D. I think it was Proctor and Gamble came up with the patents on it and it take forever. Whatever. You still have the collar that's been waiting? don't know. Caller, are you caller, are you on the air? No, okay. Oh, you're here. This is Andrews school. I was just going to say, thank you guys. Oh, hey, thanks. There's one thing that I could ask. Eggnog is amazing. I love it, but I was trying to figure out how to get a phone on top. You think metal fell has 50? Wait, for a foam on top of what? couldn't hear you. For eggnog. So it's one of my favorite parts about winter is being able to drink eggnog. And I, I mean, I also love egg white drinks, so I was trying to think of a way, I don't know, I don't think egg whites would work on top of
+
+[27:58] eggnog. I could be wrong, but I was thinking maybe metal cell is 50 to have a foam to go on top of an eggnog or some other kind of hot drink. Yeah you could totally do it. I mean, what do you want the foam to taste like? Well, I want to follow the table. I mean, I would imagine if you can get the phone done, you could probably get it to taste like anything. I mean, I was thinking maybe you do like a, either like a cinnamon, uh, or like a nutmeg
+
+[28:18] symbol, and then get that to some, or I could be wrong on that. You want some solids? You need some whipping. You need some crap in in the, so methocell F 50 is, um, it's
+
+[28:28] gonna provide the, the kind of structure, but you need some solids in there to back it up.
+
+[28:33] Like, things like purees work really well or, you know, something that has some, like,
+
+[28:38] some some structure, some, like, stuff in it. Like clearer things like simple syrups aren't going to whip up so well. Methosol, F50 may or may not work with actual milk products because they can be kind of, they can be kind of a nightmare.
+
+[28:53] You could also just whip the eggnog. Does it hold? long enough for you to finish the drink. I mean, if it's not holding long enough for you to finish a drink, not drinking fast enough. You could also do like a hot ISI foam on the, with an eggnog base and just thicken it with something like, if you want it to stay forever, like forever, like forever,
+
+[29:12] uh, you could make an agar fluid gel from the eggnog base, um, you know, hydrate the agar in water, temper back in the eggnog base,
+
+[29:23] uh, blend the hell out of that and then shoot it out of an ISI. That'll hold hot up to about 70 degrees Celsius. And
+
+[29:30] then, uh, and then that'll hold till, till forever. Can you hold that for service in the last, in like a, um, uh, in a circulator bath? Yep. Yeah. Okay. If you want, like, hyperdance on that, like, along with the eggnog? What, what, what? What did you say? What temperature would you hold that during service? Can you hold hang dog during service, like in a in a circulator bath? Yeah, sure. Okay. Uh, and then... like 57? What? Yeah, you just don't want to mess with the eggs, right? So anything below 57 I think you'll be fine. I don't think it's gonna... Well, how much? Tom and Jerry, though. if you if you want a like a hot egg drink? That's that's a Tom and Jerry. If you want a cold drink, that's an eggnog. I'd run a little test on. Listen, cocktail purist over here. Listen, Mr. I don't want to make a hot and cold cocktail at the same time because that's not real mixology.
+
+[30:27] You know what? Now he's getting me started. Listen, to get back to this. So, like, I want to, you want to test to make sure that nothing's going to break or curdle, but the
+
+[30:35] egg should stabilize it up to, you should be fine up to 57.
+
+[30:39] You should be fine. You're probably all right all the way up to 60, in which case, you know, if the health inspectors come in, you're not going to get in trouble.
+
+[30:46] Okay. Thank you. And I guess we're just wrong on the on the eggnog version. Would you say the name was pro on the form? called the Tom and Jerry. Tom and Jerry. okay You know, Don just has to be, you know, prickly over here, you know what I mean? All right. Yeah. All right. Thank you. going to break real quick. All right, coming back with some more cooking issues.
+
+[31:17] Americans throw away 58 billion disposable cups every year. A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know, but I'm Greg from Capau, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's 100% U.S. made. You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at
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+[31:42] kapow.com. CUPPOW.com.
+
+[31:51] This is not an advertisement. I promise, this is not an ad. Cooking issues listener. You're already cooler than most people for listening to this show. And if you do listen to this show than you know. Jack Insley, a.k.a. Jackie Molecules, a.k.a. the man behind the booth. I need you to make us look cool against all the other shows. Let's make cooking issues the most supported show on the network. $one, $5, $20, $50, really, anything you can afford, please donate today to HeritageRadioNetwork.org. Click on the donate tab in the top right corner. Send us a note and let us know you came from cooking issues. Dave will appreciate it. I will appreciate it. Even Nastasio will appreciate it. I promise. Give something today. Oh, and welcome back to cooking issues. How you guys doing? So, Jack, what's going on back here? Did you have any... Yeah. Cooking issues listeners are coming through. All right, all right. Ready? Caller, you were on the air. Oh, no, no, no. That was for donations. Oh, for donation. Yeah, no, I don't have callers. I have donations though. We have me all geared up. Geared up for donations. should donate. Hey, one more favor for cooking issues, fans. Like us on Facebook for Heritage radio network. We got to up those numbers. So like us on Facebook. I'm done. All right. All right. So, is anything in particular you gents want to discuss? Just here to weigh in. Not particularly. just thought we'd come crash your show. Bobby Hilton Town. Yeah. Anyway, again, so Donnelly, overlord of the cocktail world. And Father Bill, pretty much the spiritual a spiritual guide for the cocktail world. What kind of law do you actually? I'm the Sherpa to the Sherpa. I teach legal ethics. I teach philosophy of law. You for it? Most of the time. Legal ethics? You're pro? As with most people in ethics. for it for others. Okay. Did you get to see the pope when he came through? I did not. I was stuck in the Midwest. Yes. Okay, questions in. Hello, people. I was watching a series of videos about portioning and freezing food in a video. The demonstrator was using 2 mil polyfil roles and an impulse sealer and then freezing. Obviously, this is faster and way cheaper than vac sealing, but is this person shafting themselves by not removing air? Michael from Toronto. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you know, are you are you going to, like, in the short term, you're fine. Like removing air. The problem is this, if there's any space between, uh, your bag and the product that you're uh, freezing, you're going to, uh, as your product, um, kind of goes through the, uh, the cycles of up and down in your freezer, you're going to get recrystallization at the surface and you're going to
+
+[34:44] get, uh, you're going to get freezer burn on the surface of that product, uh, there's also, you know, even though you're in a freezer, there's potential oxidation reactions that can
+
+[34:52] happen. you really want to get rid of the air. mean, so, I mean, look, if you want, if you want to have it, like, let's say you're, let's say you're a prepper and you want to have a delicious steak, uh, you know, you have, you have, what are those things
+
+[35:04] called? Solar cells so that your freezer is going to stay good even when the grid goes down and, you know, you've run out of shotgun shells, so you can't shoot anybody or anything left, but your freezer is still running, you know, you're going to want your stuff backed down so that it stays in good condition because 20 years after it all happens, you know, when no more plants or anything grows, you know, you'll be glad
+
+[35:26] that you took the time to get the air out. If you want to use ziplocs, you can do kind of, you can do the old school, like, you can get most of the air out doing a water fill where you're, uh, where you, you know,
+
+[35:37] you dip the bag under the water except for, and then you close it and the water will exclude the
+
+[35:41] air if you go on the cooking issues. Old blog, those pictures are still there showing you how to do it. And another technique that you can do. makes you look really dumb, is you can stick a drinking straw into the edge of a
+
+[35:55] Ziploc, seal all the way up to the Ziploc, and then pinch and pull the straw out, and then, you know, that'll also get rid of some of the air. That's actually what I do for baked goods. You don't want to vacuum baked goods down because it crushes the baked goods.
+
+[36:08] So and they're too light, they float, so it's hard to do the water exclusion on a baked goods. So when I'm freezing down, things like pancakes and muffins. I do the straw on the zippy. That's my that's my trick. That reminds me of a, have you seen the movie The Martian yet? No, is it good? It's right up your alley, but one of the ideas is that while the main character is stuck on Mars, he has to, you know, create some kind of
+
+[36:32] food and he has these potatoes because they send him up there with potatoes as part of a Thanksgiving dinner. But if you're actually going to space, you probably send cooked potatoes backpack, right? You probably not wouldn't send raw potatoes up there. I don't think you would send raw potatoes up there. I don't think, no, I mean, like, if you were actually going to go up for a long time, you'd need a food production unit anyway, it would probably be
+
+[36:50] algae based. Well, they were sent with just, you know, like prepackaged kind of MRE style food for everything else. Then that potato, look, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. right now. I don't know. I heard, I heard, on NPR, I heard someone say that like a bunch of NASA people love the movie, so like they're not
+
+[37:06] going to nitpick. But I know for a fact, one thing that you're not going to send up on that is like something that might have a pathogen on it. So I would bet that they cook the hell out of everything that goes up on
+
+[37:17] that on those birds because, you know, you know, the Hasset, the system was designed for space program,
+
+[37:25] right? Because you don't want, you need to analyze every possible hazard because you don't want like an astronaut to get
+
+[37:31] the the, the, the runs in space or have like food poisoning in space because it's potentially a problem. There's nowhere they can land. So, you know, the food, and this is, you know, the food system that was developed for the space
+
+[37:44] program was meant to have the same checks and balances for safety that the physical space vehicles had, right? Everything redundant, everything checked, everything verified, everything logged, so that in the event of a problem, they could trace it back as interesting. Hence Hassop was born. And so my guess is that a raw potato in the food supply would be a
+
+[38:05] no love kind of a situation because it might potentially be contaminated. Well, the idea I think there was that they take it up there and microwave it before they eat it. Yeah, I'm just telling you, I just don't believe it. I mean, look, someone from NASA write in and say that that, you know, I'm, I'm, look, I'm sure these guys looked into this and whoever wrote the
+
+[38:24] book, because it was a book before it was a movie. I'm sure they wrote. I remember she dealt with it in the book or not. Do you remember, Don? So the idea was that normally they wouldn't take anything like that up there, but because they would be spending Thanksgiving there, they sent this special package that happened
+
+[38:35] to include potatoes, which is why he was able to grow something there. So let me get this straight. So in, in, you're in a space program. that is costing 1000000000s of dollars with a bunch of lives at stake, and you wouldn't ordinarily do something for safety reasons. However, you did it because it's Thanksgiving. don't know. Isn't that like two thirds of your show? I guess, I guess. I guess you've done because it's Thanksgiving. Well, okay. Yes, and my life in general. You could have a large portion of my life just be called dumb things I've done. But look, I haven't seen the movie, nor have I seen the book, nor am I, nor have I ever consulted with NASA in any way,
+
+[39:12] shape or form on any sort of food thing. So like, I could be 100% wrong. Yeah, you should check it also. There's a video that, you know, you know the guys from Tested.com. They went out to NASA to kind of see how they do the food stuff and they worked on a project with Tracy de Jardin, the chef in San
+
+[39:27] Francisco using only the ingredients of things that are already prepackaged on the ISS.
+
+[39:32] What could you create that's new? And they came up with like a space burrito. And then Chris Hatfield actually made a space burrito in the ISS. How was it? He said it was tasty. Yeah? Yeah, it was great. What are the rappers? Oh my god, I had a rap the other day. I ordered a freaking sandwich and it came as it came as a wrap and I was already out of the damn place before I realized I'd ordered a wrap. It was everything horrible that I thought it was. Did you set the place on fire? I have not yet been back to set the place on fire. However, I probably will. And I was like, maybe they cooked the freaking, maybe they cooked the freaking tortilla before they wrapped. Oh, no, they didn't raw flower. Hey, Dave, I've got 2 questions. Yes. So this one's from Timmy. Any updates on future equipment? I need a Christmas list. And the 2nd questions from Nastasia, who has Christmas lists? Oh man. Stas, you're such an idiot. Grown men. Our fans are man children. Man. Christmas list. Ouch. Man. Why do you what do you hate on the Christmas, but listen, stars. Oh, say, you're so, give me this crap. Christmas list for yourself. Listen, you know what people do? They say to me, they say, what would you like for Christmas because you're impossible to buy stuff for? Could you make a list? No. No yeah. Right. If you name 2 things, you've made a Christmas list. Oh, Father Bill busting you wide open there, size. Yes, if you say to people, here's some things that I would like, that is a list. Okay. What Stas is saying is she doesn't want you sitting down with a with a magic marker because that's what you'd be using in this situation. Jeff, a colored magic mark. a colored magic marker. Hopefully it smells like grape or lemon. Those are my 2 favorites. Orange was my, you know, distant 3rd in there. Yeah. Construction paper. Yeah, some construction paper and writing down the list. That's what she's reacting to. But like, you know, Star's like, here's what I want for Christmas. That's not a list. No, I mean, I don't consciously make a list, no. Dave's is on BuzzFeed. Someone asked Dave Arnold what he wants for Christmas. leave what happened next. Oh, man. I stand by Tim, by the way. It's okay to ask for something for Christmas. Totally is okay to ask for something because you know what? If you don't ask, you know what you get? some crap you don't want. You know what I'm saying? That's right. Get a shitty sweater. My problem is, is that most of the stuff that I want is so specific that I take all the fun out of it for the buyer.
+
+[41:55] So I'm not like, you know what I need? I need a knife. I'm like, no, there is a knife that I need. You know what I mean? Like, and you can only buy it in this one place on a Thursday, from this one lady. Yeah, but see, yeah, you're like me and that, uh, this concept of shopping doesn't make sense. You research and then you acquire. You research and then you acquire. You don't go and shop. You know, you don't go to a storm like, what do I need or want, right? you'd know what you need. figure it out and then you get it. Yeah, I'll spend like 5 hours figuring out the exact, the exact style of crap I want. It's like my wife. She's like, hey, Dave, we might have like a power outage. So I'm going to buy some flashlights. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, you don't just buy a flashlight. You go on the candle powers for him. You see what the current technology is right now. Check out the 47s website. Wild of headlamps first. like, come on. So are there plans for future equipment? Yes. Okay. So, Stas, you want to talk about this after you've insulted the person who asked for our stuff? It's the same as we said last week. We're gonna let them know when it's ready, right? Okay. Isn't that, this is why we call her the hammer, folks. For some reason, I don't know why the real stars is actually coming out on the radio, which it normally never does. This is like the actual way Nastasia treats me. Yeah, yeah. I would call her on the line too. All right, let me say this. So, um, we plan, our plan is on Black Friday, the
+
+[43:24] uh, Friday after Thanksgiving, Nastasi and I are going to ruin another Thanksgiving. We're going to announce what product we're going to sell and we're going to put it on presale. You're not going to wait for cyber Monday? No. It's on the internet, man. I know, it's... We don't believe in the we don't believe in the internet and not a valid term for something that you don't like. Shout out to David Tasanari with a donation in real time. Oh, nice real time. Anyway, so my point is, is that on Black Friday, we'll come out with what we're doing. We don't want to announce anything right now, simply because... Simply because we don't want to, um, we we don't want to say like what the capabilities or anything like R and tell everything's completely hammered down, but don't buy a centrifuge between now and Christmas.
+
+[44:11] Right? We're not going to deliver it this year, by the way. There's no way on God's earth that we're going to deliver it this year, right? Stuff? That I can say for certain. And we're going to have the cube available? Yep. Cube's available. You know who likes the cube? Rebecca. Yes. Rebecca, big fan of the cube. You know, we should have a contest for naming the cube. We don't have a decent name for it, right? I mean, Rebecca would be the leading name, maybe. You don't name the cube, Rebecca? You don't want to be, you know, you don't want to, you know what I named after you? A hunk of polyurethane that I shake around on the inside of 2 pieces of metal and just beat the ever loving crap out of in order to froth up a drink. You said loving though, so that's okay, I guess. That would froth up a nice eggnog, though. Yes, he would. Yes. Wow, John and Osaka says Dank Shaker nugs should be the cube name. Oh, nice. All right, was that a caller I heard coming in or what? Yeah, I think this is the caller. we go. All right, call her. you were on the air This is Jeffrey from Costa Mesa. How you guys doing? How you doing? Doing all right? First, just want to say thank you sincerely, dude, all of you there in the studio for the time at work that you have put
+
+[45:18] in, and you've inspired us to approach problems, not just cooking problems, but problems in general, straighter thought and creativity and
+
+[45:26] enthusiasm. Thank you for that. Thank you, it's nice. Yeah. Um, I have a question about another, since we're talking potatoes, uh, I do a lot of french fries, uh, sometimes just pater talk from those graphs, uh, so do the basic, um, uh, connect, soak for the hour, 14 minute blanch, like what you put
+
+[45:49] up, put up on the blog, uh, long time ago. So the problem is, uh, maybe I'm just an ogre and I'm not handling things delicately enough, but after the blanch, uh, so many of the fries fall apart that I'm not getting a lot of, you know,
+
+[46:03] whole nice, long French fries. I'm wondering if I can blanch for a shorter amount of time and uh, do a longer 1st fry or what, what, what would you recommend? Yes and yes and no. So, I, yes, like, in order to get a nicer looking French fry, uh, you can blanch for less amount of time, but, uh, like, I don't think the texture is going to be quite as good, and you might have to do more, a little more
+
+[46:30] dehigh, uh, between the, um, the blanch and the 1st fry to get it right. But another thing you could do. 58s cut, so I don't do any forced drawing. Right. Just throw them onto a drying rack, but that's kind of where it's tough to get them back off into the fry.
+
+[46:46] Do you have a combi oven? You know what I mean? Yeah. No. Because I've had good luck just steaming the ever-loving crap out of them too. You know what I mean? You know what I've you know what I've never done? I've never done a short blanch. See, the thing about the blanch. So when you're blanching a French fry in water, doing 2 things. You're cooking the French fry, right? So you're affecting the texture, you're also putting the salt in the inside of the French fry, which is a very important step. I wonder what would happen if you did. I've never tested this. I wonder what happened if you did a relatively short blanch, right? To get the salt penetration that you need. Pull it out, put them on racks, and then just bake them in a regular oven for a while to do like the
+
+[47:30] overcook thing, and then pull them out, let them cool off before you do the fry. I wonder what would happen. Maybe worth a shot? I think it might be good I was thinking more of a hardware solution, just take your rack and then dip it into some food grade silicone, make it, you know, non-stick. No, it's just really hard. Like, it's just really, really hard when you're dumping these, when you're, especially when you're dumping out of water. Like, when you blanch for as long as we normally blanch, like, literally just, even if you were to, like, ladle with a spider out of the out of the pot, they shatter on the spider,
+
+[47:59] they're like, the, in fact, all the bottom ones get pulped and the ones on top, like, because they have the cushion of the, of the, they're destroyed brethren underneath them
+
+[48:07] manage to survive. But, yeah, but, you know, I, you know, please, I don't have the time right now. to run a bunch of tests, but if because I'm working on this like music, bunch of stuff, like this centrifuge, the museum. If you, um, try, try like a, uh,
+
+[48:25] a shorter blanch and then just like some bake time in the oven and see whether it's good, let me know.
+
+[48:31] That's a good idea. I'll try that. I have to confess, that's my only question. I have to confess, I was the person who called a few weeks ago with, uh, too many questions and initiated
+
+[48:40] Placente Gate. So I apologize for that. Ooh. I did, I did, as a friend said, I present myself as a hammer, as a nail, upon which magnificent Ms. Lopez could hammer. Well, she does. I don't know if you can hear because you were calling in, but you see the kind of roughness she sprays on people. This is her normal self people. But this is what we need. That's what is necessary. Well, let us know how the prize work, all right? All right, cool, thanks. Hey, I hate to. I hate to say it, but we're nearing the end here. Because I got to get you, we got to do a MoFat ad, too. What? I'll say, let me see what, let me see what else, hold a second. Unethical, Father Bill would say, for you to not have us talk about these. wait, here we go. Oh, I don't even know the answer to this. I'm going to throw this out there and someone, I should know this. Oh, Nastasia, are seers all steak decorators ever going to be available outside of the
+
+[49:34] US? Steak decorators? No. Do we still have any on Amazon? Yeah. So you could probably convince, because Amazon, they say they won't do everything, but you could probably go on
+
+[49:44] amazon.us and order it from amazon.us and they may or may not ship to you depending on what kind of a mood they're in. There's also 3rd party shippers you can send it to. you Google for it. you can find something. I was, I know Canada does that. They ship a bunch of stuff to the Canadian border and then you drive to the border and pick it up, but it's also random.
+
+[50:01] I really, really didn't realize how much I would hate how export rules work. What about you, Stas? Yeah. Uh, and a radio broadcast uh, broadcast question. Recently, I bought a store bought lobster bisque bisque. What do you think about the word bisques does? You okay with it? Bisque? What do I want to say like that? You don't like bisque it. So maybe I thought you didn't like bisque. Just quick? What about Bisquick? You know who likes Bisquick freaking pancakes? Booker. He's like, can you make? I don't want your pancakes, dad. I want Bisquick pancakes. I was like, ingrate. Ingrate. Uh, recently bought lobster bask in the store, and on its ingredients, it states in quotes, lobster extract. What is such an extract? Lobster carapace spoiled down or is it an industrial road of app to use? Best 80 from the UK? I guarantee you they did not use a rotiv app. That's for dangity dangity, sure. I bet you they just like took all like the stuff left over from lobster and, you know, boiled and crushed it. But you know what? We're doing a, um, an exhibition on flavor, and I'm sure we'll get some flavors coming through. I'll ask. I'll look, all I know is this. Everything that says extract is very finely tweaked. It would not be a rodov app because that would be too expensive and you're not going to get the stuff across, but I'll figure out what it is. I'll try next time I speak to an actual flavorist. who works on savory side stuff. I'll try to get that. And then, uh, the person who called in, uh, Jeremy about the Christina Tozzi, uh, cake recipe with the fondant. It worked. Thanks for the answer. The cake was a huge success. 110 Fahrenheit for the fondant was still a little cool. 115 seemed to work perfectly. I have since made several other recipes from Ms. Tosi's book. All of them were amazing. You guys should have her on the show someday. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That would be fun. I have a caller who's going to like squeeze a question in so quickly. Here we go. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. Nastasia, Jack, nice to see all of you. Nice to talk to all of you. Quick question. Um, nitrogen in a keg. How long does it take to infuse it into a liquid phase? Oh, nitrogen will never go in? Nitrous? No, nitrogen. Like, so like when you're, like, like a Guinness style, like head. Right. So what those guys are doing is in, I believe it's been a long time since I've looked at the widget patent and Don will know about this. You use nitrogen in beer gas is to push without adding extra carbonation, but also injection of nitrogen into the bottom will create seed bubbles that cause
+
+[52:35] the head thing to come up. So what you want to do that is, uh, you need an injection at source when it goes down, but it's never going to appreciably, um,
+
+[52:46] solubilize in the, in the, in the, in the drink. But you could make, like, you could you could get like a carbonating stone, like, a centered stone that was only going to be used on Guinness, like, put it onto a nitrogen hose, and then in the bottom of a, of a, you know, a thing of Guinness, you could just
+
+[53:04] go, and it would, like, foam up to the top, I would guess. But you wouldn't want them. You want that outside. It couldn't be in the keg. It would have to be outside the cake. I don't think there's a way. You could, you could put a foaming. You could put something that would cause a boat ton of foam to happen in your beer lines, but it would wreck your beer lines for like a glass. So in other words, here's
+
+[53:27] what I, here's what you could do. How about this, Don? I don't think anyone's ever done this. Ready for this? You could have a regular beer line, right, that you left clear, and then you could emulate the beginning and end of a keg where it gets like air interruption in it with nitrogen and have a separate line that's just like crappy
+
+[53:42] foam. Yeah, that would work. Where you're pushing, where you reverse a push, where the air push that goes in actually goes in at the bottom through a carbstone.
+
+[53:49] So every time you're pushing, it's like you're pushing from a new keg. And then you would have a, uh, you'd pull your, your, your normal beer without like making it nice and then you
+
+[53:59] go and just pour foam out of your foam line. would you do? What if you just took the the end of the tap, basically, and just like kind of ran like a steel wool inside just to create more surface area to create more nucleation
+
+[54:13] sites? Oh, that's a good idea. Without having to have a separate thing on the inside of the cake? Or, or, or you could really, you could also just put like a little nitrogen, uh, or air at that
+
+[54:23] point because who cares? It's not staying in contact with the beer in more than 5 minutes. Injector right at the tip, right at the flow to just crap it out. You know what I mean? Like almost the way a soda gun craps it out. That's the easiest. There you go. If you were not serving in like pint glasses and small glasses, you could actually even also just sand the inside of the glass to create more nucleation sites, but you would eventually... Yeah, so you'd have to drink it fast. So if you made small like, you know, pony glasses, you know. The real baller thing, right? Check this out. Here's the real baller thing, right? You can have a button on the side of the thing so that you pour it and then at the end, you're like, and it just injects right at the, like right in the tip at the end, blasts some air
+
+[55:01] into it, cause nucleation sites. And then you could do it all from kind of one, one tap. Yeah, right? Oh, the advice you gave me 3 months ago about the, uh, about the coffee on tap? Perfect. Oh, nice. Yeah. And it lasts like a month and a half, no mold, no nothing, no worries at all. Ah, beautiful. You guys are gonna hate me. Oh, what, were you cutting us off? We're being cut off. Thanks for Don, Father Bill. Everyone else cooking issues. Red light ramen.
\ No newline at end of file
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@@ -0,0 +1,245 @@
+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England
+
+[0:05] cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley, host of full-service radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this show, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:32] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's
+
+[0:38] Pizzawea, in where? Bushwick. Bushwick, Brooklyn. Bushwick. Give me the face. Give me the bushwick face. I can't anymore. Ah, she's dead inside. Now, this let me take something about stars. Once she gets to a certain point, she's just dead inside. You know what I mean? You no longer even worth disdain. Like disdain takes energy, people. does. Calling your questions two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Sadly, we are not joined today in the Yeah, I don't know where she is. Oh, no. Yes, Rebecca. Our live tweeting guru is not here. She quit already. Wow. strong. Well, it wouldn't be the 1st time, right? It wouldn't be the 1st time. But we have Liz in the booth today. How you doing, Liz? I'm great. I'm just going to answer your 1st few calls here and get the get the show on the road, man. You got so many fans, so eager. Here we go. So kind, so kind. We have a caller right now? Yeah. So today, Nastasi and I are going to taste the cider that I made. Maybe if we have time, talk about how, you know, how I made it, how it's a little different from regular cider. I had some other things if we can get, if we have time to get to it. I have the new Pharos Grinder from Orphan Espresso, the coffee grinder, and I can do a little on-air review of that, spoiler alert. I need to, I needed to do some modifications to it to make it exactly kind of the way I wanted to, so we could talk about that later if we have time. But we have a caller right now? We do. All right, caller, you are on the air. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, not Jack, unfortunately. This is Antoine from Book Raton. How y'all doing? He will be sad he missed your call. Um, today's question is about uh, simple syrups, how to make some shelf stable, and then also, I took your
+
+[2:23] order recipe, and unfortunately, whenever I mix it with acid, it like clumps up, and I didn't know if you had any work around with that. Yeah. So that, usually when you get clumping on that, and you're using it like in a shaking cocktail, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, usually what that means is you have kind of a high amount of nut solids left in, which, by the way, one of my favorite words, nut solids. You like that one style? It's kind of a good one. That's on the, that's a Nastasia approved term, nut solids. But the, um, there's a couple of workarounds on it. Um, like, you you put the tickleoid in? Yes. You could hit it with a little more, uh, you could hit it with a little more Xan fan. I don't really think it's the, I't think the jacking, the Arabic's kind of help much. I mean, you could try just upping the level in the in the overall system, but usually it's the, um, usually it's the Xanthan that you need
+
+[3:19] to up a little bit, but not a lot, right? So there's very little xanthan in tickaloid 210 or 310 It's mostly Arabic, but I think a little bit more Xanthan might help. I mean, maybe adding a little, maybe upping the entire system might help a little bit, but it's definitely a question of like high,
+
+[3:38] high, high nut solids. Um, I'm trying to think of what we used to solve it just by post-blending it, right? St does. Like, so, like, in other words, like, when we originally made our, like, when Stas and I were doing, like, pecan bourbon sours, we started originating with pure pecan oil.
+
+[3:54] Pure pecan oil will not break at all. with a tickleloid. But when we started adding pecan nut solids back, we would start getting clumping. It would unclump if you just went, and like hit it for a second, but you can't really do that at a bar. So I would try to up the, I would try to up it a little bit and see, see whether you can, um, see what you can get. I'm trying to think of what else would stabilize it. Huh. Let me think on it. I think of anything else, I'll get back to you. But try that and let me know, let me know how it works, because I hate that, the cloudy look, that puffy look on the inside of a drink. I hate that so much. Don't you hate that? Yeah, like you, for instance, like in your recipe, you call for like it's one. 75, tickle load and then .2 grams, Xanth, and how much more would you recommend, like, I guess, going up? What was the base? What was the water base? Uh, just, just the water, like I, I mean, how much water for that much? Oh you're talking percentages? Yeah, so. What? 660 of water. Yeah, I mean, look, try doubling the
+
+[4:57] Xan fan and see what happens. It's still a very small amount in the finished drink. You just want the poor ability of the Orja to remain high. And, you know, obviously, like blend the crap out of the Orja before you do it. How are you getting rid of the solids? I'm straining them like 5 different times? Yeah, it's kind of everything I can. Centrifuge is really good at this. But I'm just saying. Unfortunately, I'm holding out for a good one I've heard is on the way. Yeah, we're, we're, we're, even though we haven't officially announced what it is yet. We're still, we're already kind of taking suggestions on names. So check out this one. I don't really like. Okay, so, like, the obvious name is Clears all, right? Right? That's the obvious name. Clears all. But the problem is, is that unlike a Sears all, which literally, Sears all, like, if it's a food stuff, it is cereal, right? With a series all. I mean, this isn't gonna clear everything. It's just gonna do like a lot of the stuff that we need done. So I wouldn't call it like it clears all because I'm a truth in advertising sort of a fellow, even though it does make a certain sort. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway, so I will try to stabilize eventually. I should try to stabilize eventually some, um, just plain strained, um, nut milk orjas, but it's got to be just upping the
+
+[6:10] Xanthan a little more. Try upping the xanthan and the batch you already have and see what happens and just tweet on back. Let me know what happens. Or if anyone else in the Twitter universe there has had experience adding some more stabilization to it. Um, just let us let us know. Also, how do you recommend doing like stabilizing just other simple syrups that I might make as well. Oh, yeah, yeah. affecting the flavor. That depends on, um, well, okay. So like, uh, you mean stabilize them. Like shelf stabilizing. Right. The main the main problem in simple syrups is the is kind of yeast and mold formations, right? So, you know, it's all a question of what you want to add. Like a little bit of benzoit will kill like most of the yeasty stuff and stop that from happening, but, you know, how long do you want it to last? A few months at least? But like, like, make them, like, and what are we talking? Like, how, like, can they take heat? Can you throw them in like a vac bag and just like poach them at a low temperature to kill the yeast and then keep them in your
+
+[7:12] fridge? Nothing dangerous is going to grow at 50% sugar. Do you know what I'm saying? So like, so like what I would do is like throw them into a, into a bag, like circle them at a relatively low temperature that's not going to mess with the, with the flavor, but is enough to kill, you know, any kind of yeast kind of stuff, like, you know, mid-50s
+
+[7:31] somewhere, Celsius, and then throw that in the, in the fridge and then refrigerated, uh, you know, uh, once it's been pasteurized, it should last. You know, I don't think, I mean, someone can get back and tell me I'm wrong, but nothing bad should
+
+[7:46] grow and no molds will grow after you do that because they're not going to survive that and no yeast are going to grow. And I've never had I've never been contaminated with any sort of like vile bacteria. It's all been kind of yeasts and molds and that little bit of heat will do it. Or you could just hit it with something like benzowit, but then you've added benzowit to it. You know what I mean? And so then, like, you know, some people will say they can taste it or some people will think that you're an evil human being for doing
+
+[8:14] it, so, you know, just, you know, go the other way. What do you think about adding like the tablespoon of vodka grown? Oh, I don't know if that's enough. I thought people had good luck with that? I haven't tried it out yet. I didn't I didn't want to ruin it. I mean, experiment anything with that. I mean, I don't think it's going to ruin it. I just don't know if it's enough. You know what I mean? Like, so you're looking for hurdles. And so if you figure, I mean, you have to figure out how much of your, I mean, half of this syrup by weight is, um, water,
+
+[8:48] but, uh, that you got to calculate how much water is in it because the density of a regular simple syrup is roughly
+
+[8:54] one, one. two, one. roughly. And so like a liter of that, a liter of the product will be, uh, will weigh one. 23 kilos, half of which is water. So there's roughly 600 and change mills, 615 mills of water in every liter of simple syrup. Right? And so then you'll know what your alcohol content is. And so like, you know, a couple tablespoons in, you know, is not ever going to get you too high up. But the question is, is, is a little bit of alcohol enough to kill, uh, or to prevent yeast and mold from growing so long as the sugar content is so
+
+[9:33] high. And that, I don't know, because I don't know how close you are to the threshold. Now you could, you could make rich symbols, right? And those are even more stable, but mold as anyone who has stored maple syrup for long periods of time, not in the
+
+[9:46] fridge will tell you mold will grow on the top of maple syrup. Okay. And it makes it disgusting. you ever had moldy maple syrup? I have. It's gross Maple syrup? No moldy maple syrup. Oh, no, I've never had moldy maple syrup. It's the worst. you know, as good as maple syrup is? That's how bad moldy maple syrup is. I would say, like, I would say here's how I think I would rank these kinds of things. Rotten pistachios the top, right? the worst thing in the world, a rotten pistachio. Stas, do you agree? I've never had one of those bad pine nuts that wipes out your palate for a 1000000 years, but a rotten pistachio is way up there. Maple, like moldy maple syrup, not that bad, but pretty damn bad, especially considering how good you think it's going to
+
+[10:30] be. Liz, what's your least favorite bad thing? Uh, I would have to go with when you when you get like the bad pistachio. That's like disgusting. It ruins your whole day. I would agree. I would agree. And you know what? It's always like you've eaten a lot of pistachios and then you get that one and you were happy. You get in that kind of choo-choo, choo-choo train rhythm of eating pistachio, pistachio nuts. And then you get that one and you're like, ah! But you know, the thing is, is that you can kind of look at them and know. So like we used to buy like the can shelled pistachio nuts and always our syrups were never like as good as they could be. And so then we like would dump. this is why one of the reasons everyone hates me. is I would say, okay, from now on, you're dumping every pistachio nut onto a sheet
+
+[11:13] tray and you're putting eyeballs on every last pistachio nut because you can look at them. They look, 1st of all, the color is not right. A lot of them get a little yellow and oxidized and whatever, they're still okay, but you know, the wrinkle, it's the wrinkly ones. When you're showing them yourself and you look down, you see that wrinkly pistachio nuts. Don't eat it. Don't eat that nut. You know what I'm saying? I just want to blindly shovel them in my mouth, though. I appreciate that. So what you need to do, what you need to do, Liz, is you need to become rich enough that you can have someone who pre-sifts your pistachios for
+
+[11:43] you. And then you can blindly shovel them into your art. Do you feel the compulsion to break them open or do you can you just have shelled pistachio nuts and you're okay? I think I'm okay with the shell. I mean, no, I mean, you know, you don't mind having someone pre-shell them for you? no, I wouldn't mind that either. mean, it's life goals right here. Right, right. It means, for me, there's something about like sitting there and like cracking open the things that I kind of enjoy. I know Nastasia never watches stuff. you ever watch James Bond movies. Sure, yeah. So there was Topo, the guy who was in the one of the Federal on the roof movie, Topo, was one of the good guys in one of the James Bond movies where they had to climb up some monastery, I think, in Greece.
+
+[12:21] And he had the habit of being able to throw pistachio nuts into
+
+[12:25] his Here a life goal for you. He could throw a pistachio nut in the shell, in his mouth, eat the pistachio and spit the shells out. That, that, my friend, skill. Wow. Skill. Movie factor. I called movie factor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we should all we should all work on that. Thank you very much. I wanted to just let you know that Jeremiah Bullfrog sends its regards, and you would love to get you down here. Oh my god, he was, he was. He was in New York, but the museum exhibit wasn't open yet, so he sent me a picture of the outside. I didn't get to talk to him, so hopefully he got to go inside. Hopefully the machines were running this. By the way, the museum opens tomorrow, people. Museum of Food and Drink, 62 Bayard in Brooklyn. and Jeremiah Bullfrog. Excellent, excellent man, as we all know, museum opens in Brooklyn tomorrow, complete with. And now I'm allowed to tell you about everything in it. Check this out. We have a, it's about the flavor industry. We've talked about this a 1000000 times, right? The birth of the flavor industry. We have these machines called like smell synths. They let you play. It's like an arcade game where you mix smells in an arcade game fashion, like an
+
+[13:25] early arcade game. Like, I don't know, like space invaders. Like Space Invaders? It's good game, Space Invaders. But you're not shooting anything. It's not a first-person shooter. It's not a first-person shooter, but it literally runs off of arcade buttons and it's got LEDs, no noises. gonna be fun. Anyway. All right. So Jack Davis in the chat room likes Spindax as a name for the centrifuge. Spindax, but what about Booker? Booker will be so upset? I don't think, do you think he'll care? Do I think Booker will care? I mean, I think maybe later in life he'll care. Right now he obviously doesn't care. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. All right. Okay, we don't we don't like it. Okay, let me get into some questions unless we have a call. get into some questions. This from Brian in Seattle. Hi, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and Rebecca. Well, Jack and Rebecca. Rebecca don't like it. Rebecca is here? Oh, nice. All right. And Liz, we'll add Liz to the list here. I remember reading in liquid intelligence that Dave uses 200 proof alcohol for some cocktail ingredients like
+
+[14:24] Justinos. But that it wasn't generally, wait, that's what Stas thought the good name was, right? I think into the Hustino 54. Yeah, because 54 Eldridge was our old lab and Custino is like a Justino. We should at least just informally refer to it. That was actually where I like woke up in the morning and I was like... Or the Hustino 54,000. Yeah, like that. Anyway, but I think Hustino was 4000 RPM. Because it, ah, but it's not, but we could, you know, I'll just call up China and be like, yo,
+
+[14:52] China. I know that we had, I know that we said it was going to run in more like, you know, like 5000
+
+[14:56] RPN, but how about 5400. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. It's marketing thing. Believe me. Believe me. I think it's good, right? Custino, yeah, because he, like, Custino, like, 4958 is not such a good number. No, right? 5,400. 5400? like that. Now, well, we'll call after we get off the air, we'll go, we'll call up China. Okay. Then we'll wake them up, wake them up from sleep, they'll be, what's wrong? They'll be like, nothing. We need it to go 5400 at PM. We'll tell you later. Okay. Like Custinos, but that it wasn't generally available to the public. In looking for some, I stumbled across a California product called Clean Extract, K-L-E-E-N extract. And they're at cleanextract.com, apparently, which purports to be 200 proof food
+
+[15:42] grade ethyl alcohol and available for shipping to the public in many states. It seems like the product is geared towards making tinctures of various herbs. What do you think about the word tinctures does? I think it's kind of gross word. Tincture. Tincture. Not as bad as spula. Spula. Tinctures, uh, uh, of various herbs, herbs and quotes. By that we mean, we mean marijuana. When someone says urban quotes, it means pot. Did you know that? Yeah, probably. Me, me, me, me. don't know these things So it comes in large sizes, like one gallon plus. Would there be any problem using it in cocktails? And if not, any interesting doors, it opens up that 190
+
+[16:23] proof everclear does not. I've heard that pure alcohol is hygroscopic, which it is, it absorbs water out of the air. Would this just, uh, would this just extract water from the air until it hits 190 making it no better than ever clear? Leather show, keep up the awesome work, Brian from Seattle. Well, look, once you're up at 190 versus 200, the proof isn't really making that much of a difference anymore, that little bit of water isn't making a lot,
+
+[16:44] lot of difference in terms of the flavors you're getting, what it, uh, the reason I hate Everclear and no offense to the manufacturers of the product ever clear, it sucks.
+
+[16:52] It's just a rancid, awful, poorly made product that no matter
+
+[16:56] how, I mean, we've all been to college, you've had Everclear dumped into Kool-Aid rice does. didn't go to those parties. What about you, Liz and Rebecca? Did you have Everclear in Kool-Aid situations? I went to the University of Missouri and we held Everclear in high regard, so yes. Yeah, okay, so okay, so let me ask you this. Even when even when it's diluted in large amounts of grape Kool-Aid, you can still smell the Everclear. From miles away. Yeah, why? Because Everclear is a poorly made product. Yeah, well, wow, yeah, Purelle. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's basically what Pirel Pirel is like poorly made. Actually, like poisonous. They denatured purelle, I think. Um, Anywho. So I think it's just poorly made. I think that's the issue. So that's my main gripe with it, not the proof. So if this clean extract is good to go. It's good to go, but you do not require. In fact, at the bar now, we use something called technical reserve that's made right here in
+
+[17:52] Brooklyn. And it's 190 and that's what we use for everything just because, you know, it's pretty clean. You want clean, clean aroma. You could also, like, if you get crappy Everclear, you could put it through 18000000 runs of like a Britta to try and strip out all the nasties. Remember when we used to put, like, we used to be so cheap that we would buy, like, you know, smearnoff and pop off
+
+[18:15] vodka and we would just sit there putting it through Brita time and time again, Brita after Brita after Brita until the stank went away so that we used it when we were
+
+[18:22] rotovaping at the school, back when we were allowed to rotovap alcohol. well not allowed. I mean, the government said it was illegal, but no one was stopping me from teaching people distillation. Yes. Anyways. Okay. Hey, you guys want to taste, you guys in the booth want to taste cider? We need some glasses for us. Ooh, yes. Let's taste some of the cider that I made from my very own tree. We need glasses for us. Anyway, um, Okay, let me see what we got here. Truffles got an interesting question in from Arnie Olsen. I found a couple of small truffles in the forest near my home in Bergen, Norway.
+
+[18:57] I'm sure Bergen, Norway. No offense to New Jersey, but it's the county where I used to live is Bergen County. And I don't, yeah, probably looks the same, right? It's probably just the same, probably just as nice. No, no. No. No offense to Bergen. Hey, look, you know what we are? Bergen. We the gateway to New York. We got the George Washington Bridge. So we got there in Bergen. Anyway, Bergen's a fine county. No offense to us. You know what their newspaper is, the Bergen record. Bergen record. Okay, not Norway, but not Norway. Okay. They're... Elaphomyces, granulates, known as deer balls,
+
+[19:33] heart balls, heart meaning deer, not heart, heart, like H-A-R-T, not heart, like, you know,
+
+[19:37] corazone. Uh, harsh truffles, oh, or uh, lycopra nuts. That's from Wikipedia, and not regarded as particularly high quality. Still, I would like to make the most of them. And my question is, would rapid infusion work to make a truffle oil? I'm not very fond of truffle oil, but I can't think of any better way to use them, and they're not super aromatic, and the texture isn't great either. best, uh, Arni Olsen. Now, listen, I tried to look these suckers up and by all accounts, everyone's like, you know, maybe they're edible, barely, maybe they're
+
+[20:07] poisonous, mildly. So, like, nobody seems to know, but I'm reminded back of when Paul Adams, uh, our friend from Popular Science, uh, came up to Connecticut and found some bitter boli, which doesn't taste that that
+
+[20:20] good, and he made uh, boliat butter. Remember, and he brought it into the to the radio program. it was good. So I would try rather than doing oil, which, you know, I would maybe do
+
+[20:30] a, maybe do a deerball butter. Right? Deerball butter. By the way, uh, I, the, like Coperdon is a puffball, and the Wikipedia, if you look that up, actually says that that word comes literally from the, uh, I think
+
+[20:46] Latin meaning, uh, wolf farts. Wolf farts. You ever eating puffballs? No. You can eat puffballs, you know. You just have to make sure you have to cut through them and make sure that they're not an immature form of another mushroom that could kill you. But puffballs themselves. They're okay. They're not the, you know, they're not the greatest thing. Oh, you know what? I went to a Polish store yesterday. And I, what I've learned, I need to talk to Lucasio, a friend of the show,
+
+[21:11] that the polls have forgotten more about mushrooms than we're ever going to know. So many different pickled mushroom varieties. You know how, like, we just have like pickled, like, you know, like those, like the, like, the regular pickled mushrooms, and you're like, that, this is like, I didn't bring them with me because they need to be chilled, but, like, you're gonna like this one, slippery jack
+
+[21:28] mushrooms, slippery jack mushrooms. Honey mushrooms? Yeah, yeah. when Jack comes Well, I'm glad I didn't bring it because Jack's not here to have slippery jack mushrooms, but I was going to give him some anyway. I need to learn more about Polish mushrooms. Okay, on the truffle oil thing. Look, the whole point, apparently, and I was doing some research. There is a book, not for the, uh, not for Europe, but for America, called, um, that I didn't get a chance to order because I just saw these questions last night, but it's actually on the list now, things I want to order,
+
+[21:57] called, uh, Truffle uh, Field Guide to Truffles of North America. And this truffle is included in it because it comes from North America.
+
+[22:04] And the reason the truffles apparently, and this is interesting to me, have aroma is because they want you to, if by
+
+[22:11] you, you mean small mammals, find you, dig you up. Eat you and crap out the spores. So that's why they have aroma. So perhaps, um, one of the one of the problems uh, with the particular truffle that you have, the deer ball, is maybe it's not at its best, because at its best, it should have an aroma, but they have a longer persistence, then, um, like tuber
+
+[22:32] Milanus barm or things like this. And so they're going to remain findable in the ground well past or before the point when they actually have their aroma. So if they don't have much aroma, I don't think they're going to have much of anything to try making a butter. Is that a good answer? I don't know. can't tell. You want to try the, you want to, you want to go to a commercial break? Let's go to commercial break now. We come back from commercial break. We'll try some cider on cooking issues.
+
+[23:04] Today's program was brought to you by Firesider. Did your grandmother ever tell you to drink raw apple cider vinegar? It's good advice and more common than you may think. For generations of New Englanders, a tot of vinegar was a morning ritual. Taken daily, a tablespoon of unfiltered apple cider vinegar can help support immune function and digestive
+
+[23:26] functions. To the base of certified organic apple cider vinegar, firesider added whole raw certified organic oranges, lemons, onions, ginger, horseradish, habanero pepper,
+
+[23:37] garlic and turmeric. They let this mixture steep for 6 weeks at room temperature, to preserve the living
+
+[23:43] vinegar culture, and delicate flavors of the ingredients. Lastly, they blend a generous helping of raw wildflower honey into the mix. The result is potent but balanced, offering layers of sweet, tart, and spice. Fire cider taste great on its own or as an addition to tea, juice, or salad. Firesider ships direct from their online store and is available at over 500 locations nationwide. Use their store locator to find one near you and ask for a free sample. For more information visit firesider.com. Firesider, huh? Do we have any of that stuff in-house? We could try. Liz, do we actually own that product? Um, the silence. The silence means no. Silence means no. Well, we'll get it in. We'll try. talk about it. But while we're on cider. So what we have here is, look, in the back of this house that I acquired in Connecticut, there is a standard
+
+[24:36] size, what looks to be similar to a golden delicious, but it's not. It doesn't taste exactly golden delicious, but it's super high. So you can't get the apples out of it very easily. But I got one of those 12 foot pool poles with a little picker on the end of it and got enough off to
+
+[24:50] make some, you know, like 8 gallons of cider. And I wanted to make a very kind of particular kind of cider.
+
+[24:58] So here's what I did that's different from normal. First of all, I don't have a cider press, so I juiced it all in a champion juicer. Yes, because I'm that much of a masochist and an idiot. So I juiced it all in a massacane juicer. Also, I didn't want to have like a typical kind of oxidized cider taste. So I hit the cider with a scorbic. I hit the juice with ascorbic acid as soon as it was juiced. I did not add pectinace to the enzyme, uh, uh, SPL to it before fermentation because I knew that apples like this typically lose a lot of their character when they're spun out.
+
+[25:29] They're not like a high, a high, like a flavor apple, like an
+
+[25:33] Ashmeads kernel where the juice is delicious even after all the solids are out of it.
+
+[25:38] So I wanted to ferment it on its solids. So I doped it with yeast. Um, I added a small amount of sugar because they were fairly low bricks and put them in 5 gallon buckets and did a primary fermentation for a couple of weeks at them at relatively cool temperatures because the house is relatively
+
+[25:55] cool. And then here is where I differed after the primary, I added SPL and swirled him around to drop the stuff out. Then I put the, uh, I put the entire batch through the Justino,
+
+[26:12] 5400, uh, to get rid of like a lot of the flock and new sediment in it that
+
+[26:18] was left and got a pre-cleared thing. But here is another trick I used, people, that I think is, you know, I don't know whether anyone else does this, but because I was introducing that oxygen there. I didn't want a high vinegar note on it. I wanted the acidity to stay what it was and I didn't want it to oxidize. So what I did is I immediately semi carbonated it while it was warm. I didn't want to highly carbonate it, but I semicarbonated it in 2 liter bottles using a carbonation rig. You could do it in a keg if you had one. Poured them semicarbonated into bottles that I had added the dosage to, capped
+
+[26:50] them, and then let them bottle condition for a couple of weeks. So here we have it. Cheers, cheers, folks, in the booth, Rebecca, Liz. We like. It's good, right? Yep. It's good. Yeah, very tasty for all you listeners out there. All my chat room friends. Yeah, so this is like it's still very, very tart because it's a fairly high acid. I was able to literally beat another batch of apples off the tree that are lower in acid. So I'm going to try to make kind of a less tart one, but the idea here is like for this kind of cider, a minimal amount of oxidation, right? Yeah, it's not bad. And the answer, my friends, is ascorbic acid and a little
+
+[27:31] precarbonation before the bottle conditioning. I wish I had some cheddar cheese. Wouldn't that be good? Some really super sharp cheddar cheese. Some crackers. Oh my gods. Oh my god. You know what? We're simple people, Anastasia and I. Like, good. I don't even need like hyper expensive. I just need nice sharp. Like, would I, would I, if someone like parachuted in here with a, like, a wheel of Montgomery's, uh, you know, uh, cheddar from Neil's yard,
+
+[27:59] like, would we turn them down? No, you would kill them and steal the cheese needed. You know, I don't even need necessarily that high quality. And on that note, we have another collar. Oh yeah, caller? Are they going to talk about killing people? Call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Colin down in DC. How you doing? I'm just calling in because you got a guy calling this Alex G fellow calling in last week asking about some sweet potato caramel
+
+[28:23] syrup. Right? And it was me that called in about that about, I don't know, 2 or 3 years ago.
+
+[28:31] All right, so what happened? You must have been remembering back to. So, just figured I could call in and give him and everyone else
+
+[28:38] the like just real fast update on that stuff. The syrup, right? That I've been able to reproduce pretty successfully. The biggest key really is start with a really high bricks sweet potato. If you can get heart of gold, those are your best option. Otherwise, just try whatever you can get uh, locally and just experiment and see what works. But you get best yields at a heart of gold because they're high bricks, easy work with. I cannot believe you just put that song in my head. I'm so angry that that song's in my hand. It's like it's never going to leave now. It's going to be there like... But I mean, I had the benefit. There just some retired guy, retired professor in Maryland who's got a, you know,
+
+[29:24] uh, one acre, 2 acre sweet potato farm, and he put like 14 tons of potatoes
+
+[29:29] in. So I got them there. I don't know where anyone else will get them, but experiment beyond that and you'll still get a good product. Just give the procedure really quickly. Just get the procedure. Yeah, so, procedure is juice them out in a, you know, cube them up, juice them in champion juicer. Uh, kind of uh, you're gonna end up with a kind of starchy juice. Add some pectinex to that and some
+
+[29:54] ammo waste. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. Which hamilies do you use? Regular, regular beer house hamilies? I just get the whatever they get at brew shops and just use a bunch of it. And it helps it out. Uh, circ that out at maybe 65 or 70 C for a day. And you'll see that, uh, you'll get a kind of clear liquid on the top of, uh, and a lot of the starch will settle out at the
+
+[30:20] bottom, and a real key here is, you can't that clear liquid, reduce it down into a caramel syrup or just a, like actual
+
+[30:29] candy caramel as you would normally. Uh, the key here is like not getting any starch in. If you get starch in, it just sort of turns more into like a pudding, which is also awesome, but not what you're going for if you're trying for the caramel.
+
+[30:43] I think that's about it. If there's, if anyone else, I guess, has questions, they can follow them up, then you could tweet it out or whatever. But I just thought I'd take the opportunity to clear that up. Are you are you a part of our chat room? You should, because people might ask you questions right now. If you were to log into the chat room, people might ask you questions like right now. Yeah, I'm on it. I can, uh, they can ask questions. I'm out. I'm about for like another 20 minutes, but I'll be back if that stays live. I don't know, Liz, does it stay live? Yeah, it's always live. It's ever lively to make it. do it. I'm on it. and do it. Cool. I'll sign off and yeah. Liz, are you saying it's like Tinker Bell? You just have to keep believing in it and it stays alive? Yeah, I mean, minus the whole dust thing, but we don't have dust. We don't have dust. Pixie dust? If only Jack were here, he would know. Man, we just like, you know, like we always, we get close and we don't quite make it there. We all we just do. Hey, I could buy the pixie dust. Amazon Prime, but no, I'm not going to buy it, right? It gets so close. Hey, can I give a shout out to a listener? Anthony Scardino. I made his life. What was that? He was he's missing a clamp screw. Oh, and you sent the clamp screw? Well, no, I just responded to his email. Oh, nice. Wow, that's quite nice. Oh, by the way, I loved when you insulted one of... I loved that tweet. tweeted at him. Oh my god. Yeah. So he tweeted back his Christmas list to us, the picture of it. And the 5th thing on the Christmas list was get insulted by the co-host of his favorite
+
+[32:21] podcast and he's like, check number 5 off. That was perhaps the greatest tweet that I have ever received in my whole life. I was on the floor. My wife was on the floor. By the way, Stas and Jack are going to try to get my wife into the program. I don't know, like for any of you out there that want to. I dont know why you would want to ask my wife a question. Christmas special. Yeah? No, no. anyway. Okay. Question name. Would Dave use equilibrium, brining, chicken fingers? In other words, brining them, I presume, from Joan, I presume that what's meant here is brining the chicken
+
+[33:00] fingers until they are in equilibrium with the brine around them. I have never done that. That would take, I think, quite, quite a while. And then the question is, is there a fractometer that I would recommend? Um, I'm enjoying the show best regards. I don't know. I've never done it that way. Like, I mean, definitely that's the way when you're pickling, when you're doing like brine soak on meats over a long period of time. You know, you definitely, what you, you know, you, you make your brine based on the total weight of brine and meat, and then you check it with, um, you can check it either with, uh, you know, one of
+
+[33:39] the, uh, density-based things like, uh, you know, the floating guys, or you can get a refractometer. I don't know, because I've never measured salinity with a refractometer. I don't know how accurate they are over the range of interest for
+
+[33:52] meats because it's not going to be high. Remember, you're going probably fairly, if you're going to brine to an equilibrium point, you're down low, like, you know, 3% or less, uh, 2 to 3% in that range. Um,
+
+[34:07] so it's going to be relatively tiny amounts. And so I don't know whether, I don't know how accurate or for octometer, a regular fractometer is going to be for salinity at those levels, but I can look into it. I didn't get a chance to look into it, but I can look into it. But, you know, in general, what I do is, you know, I only, I'm brining for a couple of
+
+[34:25] hours. I don't do, on chicken fingers, they brine relatively quickly, and I don't really do an equilibrium thing. You think that's okay? Yeah, okay. Randy writes in. What? Someone wouldn't do this. No, we do have a caller if you're interested. I'm totally interested. Call her, you were on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? All right. This is Chris from the green zone in DC. How you doing? Good, good, good. So I can't wait for this, you know, 5400 because it directly relates to my question. Nice. I called back a while ago about keeping, you know,
+
+[34:56] mint from turning green and also clarifying in filters versus whatever else. I made another batch of my herbal liqueur. I did it 2 ways. I did a different thing for the fresh and for the dry ingredients, for the fresh, I just put it in an itsy, like fresh mints and other
+
+[35:11] herbs, and it came out bright electric green. It was awesome. It was relatively clear. All the gunks that was in there settled out immediately. I could just rack it off fantastic. Nice. And then for the dry stuff, so both spices and herbs, I did it in a circulator in the
+
+[35:27] bag. And it came out to be a very dark green, it was a bit cloudy and I spent a while filtering it in paper towels and coffee filters. Eventually got it pretty clear, dark green. I forgot I'd mix the two. Mix them together. Not the same, you know, halfway point in the green colors. And then since I'm going, I'm sort of making my own version of Chartreuse, which I've heard is sweetened with honey, I added, I made a honey syrup and slowly added it in. It instantly went cloudy and disgusting
+
+[35:54] brown, and I thought that maybe it had looshed or something, the way like an absinthe or an
+
+[35:58] oozo would. Right. But then I left it overnight. And all the stuff that was still making it slightly green had settled on the
+
+[36:07] bottom and what I got was just a pure brown clear liquid on top. So, in these green infusions and liqueurs and stuff is the, is the chlorophyll dissolved in the alcohol or is it just really tiny little particles floating around? What's going on? Well, Chartreuse is colored with purified chlorophyll from spinach. Sure. After it's made because they're doing a distillation. Then an age down, and then they're just doping it back with, you know, it depends on whether you're talking green or yellow, right? Yellow is obviously higher in honey. Do you try doping it with regular sugar? I mean, I wonder what was going on. Yeah, I'm not sure. I did it. I did it with sugar, the last batch I made and it still ended up being really brown. But it went from being green and stable. It went from being green and stable to brown instantly. But what was the original proof before you added the syrup? Oh, I mean, it was it was ever clear. So it was one, you know, close to 190. Oh, so it really? Yeah. Huh. Huh. So, so you were adding a good amount of liquid to it, much more. In other words, like, so it's not like you were dealing with something that was relatively low
+
+[37:27] improof, like 50%. And then you're adding. Yeah, I've had almost a liter or a bit more, actually more than a liter of the everclear strength stuff. And then I added almost a leader of honey syrup. So there's something in there that is oxidizable that, I mean, it couldn't, it wouldn't be enzymatic because, like,
+
+[37:48] most of, like, polyphenol oxidase enzymes are going to be inactivated at that super high, uh, at that super high proof. Like, when I say inaccurate or destroyed. Here's the other thing. The stuff that settled out eventually was actually green. Huh. Yeah. And so now I've got a layer of green fludge, and I've got a layer of brown clear liquid. Okay, so the brown is probably what color it always probably had that brown in it and it was just overwhelmed by the green. I'm pretty sure that, like, that's what's going on there. So then the question is, why did it suddenly fluck? Have you tried doing the reverse? Have you tried adding a small amount of the green to a large amount of
+
+[38:33] water just to see whether or not it stays or whether it flocks together? Like you might, as you go through this small stage where it's still relatively high proof, but now there's some
+
+[38:41] water? Like all the stuff might instantly aggregate. You know what I mean? Right, right. No, I haven't tried it like that. I would try it. And see what happens. Does the brown stuff taste delicious or does not taste the same either? No, it's pretty it's pretty good. It just doesn't look very attractive. Have you tried, especially with the name green zone. Have you tried, um, have you tried, um, Have you added any to water as though it was a bitters before you added any sweetener to it? add what to water? Have you ever have you ever used it like as a bitters, just adding a little bit to water before? Oh, no, I haven't I haven't tried that. I would, I'd be interested to see what happens, whether it stays clear, whether it flocks together. And someone else in the in the on the chat room maybe has some ideas on this. But yeah, this is a, it's some sort of weird thing that's happening as you're adding water to the system. So I would try going in the other direction and see whether or not you could prevent it from happening. Um, but something is going from, I don't, it could either be going from soluble to
+
+[39:41] not, or it could be going from, uh, stable to all of a sudden flocking. Because it sounds like the stuff's flocking together. Most stuff that loose is. Yeah, I thought it was a loose kind of like absinthe or something, but I don't think it would settle out so quickly. Well, yeah, loosh stuff tends to not settle. It tends to float to the top. You know what I mean? So, like, if you were to if you were to, like, uh, oozo something out, lose it, and then let it sit for a week, you'll get the stuff usually on top, not on bottom.
+
+[40:09] So you're getting something that's heavier than alcohol that's settling out. I mean, I filtered it through like layer after layer of coffee filters. I'm really surprised there is that much solid stuff to settle out. Well, the other thing, you know, is you could have like solids in there that then they could be
+
+[40:25] charged. It could be like a charged particle that then attaches to the color and then spins it out. So, you know, you never, you never, it's hard to say, but I would try to do the reverse experiment, see whether you can stop it from happening. Cool. All right. Well, in the meantime, cannot wait for the, uh, thudder fuse. And also, in the meantime, make you some make you some spinach juice and do it the way the monks do it. How do I do that? Just blend up some snitch and dehydrate it? Uh, no, they uh, it's been a long time since I've done it. Like you cook it. You got to get the initial stuff out, then you blend it, and then you squeeze it, and you get
+
+[41:01] the chlorophyll juice, and then that stuff's pretty stable. I have to go look at the protocol for it. taste like spinach? No. No, not when you're done with it. Not when you're done with it. You want to get just a clear the clear stuff out. I made some delicious parsley oil in the Justino 54, by the way. And I want to make I want to make a drink that it has tickoloy stabilized parsley oil in it. Wouldn't that be good? That be delicious. And that stuff stays green. Green for a long time because there's no water in it. all oil. Right, right. Anyway, try some of your stuff out and let me know what happens. So in the chat room, they want to know what you think about that bacon thing from
+
+[41:38] World Health Organization. Well, tell me about it. I don't know what it is. Do you know Rebecca? They said it's a number one carcinogen now. Number one, like, oh, bacon is more carcinogenic than cigarettes? No, no, no. Okay. group level category. That's what they're saying. I mean, based on what data? I can do stuff if you want, but I don't have anything... will read it. I will read the data, but in general,
+
+[42:07] like I am loath to believe any of that, any of that kind of, it's
+
+[42:12] just like, why? Because main, like, if you look at it, like, some, like, someone will do a study with a bunch of kind of related risks and they'll add a bunch of stuff
+
+[42:21] together that doesn't, that has no meaning. Like, I guarantee you that there is not some giant cohort study where the only difference between group A and group B is bacon.
+
+[42:33] And then, and then, you know, like, you know, half of the people on the bacon side are dropping like flies,
+
+[42:38] right? I mean, it's just I guarantee that that's not the case. I will look at the data, but I would be willing to bet a chunk of money that if I did look into it, I would come back and say that this is some horse hockey.
+
+[42:52] Horse hockey? Horse hockey. Now all the vegans and vegetarians are like, I told you, we were right. Now, look, you know, whatever. You know what? And, like, they say Sassafras will kill you too. You're not allowed. Hey, vegans, vegetarians. You should be able to have real honest to God, saffro root
+
+[43:10] beer, and you can't, because someone told you that it's going to cause cancer. And you know what? I don't know. I think the data is just bad. I think the data's just bad. I haven't looked at the bacon data, so I have no idea. I'm not like, I have no knowledge, but anyway, so let me rip through this real quick before I get ripped off the air.
+
+[43:25] Uh, I'm uh, this is from Randy. I'm making a boneless leg of land this weekend and wondered if this is a good way to do it. Cook it low temp for 55 degrees C for 10 hours, then throw it in a 500 degree oven until it hits a final temperature,
+
+[43:38] 60 degrees C. I want to do it this way because I'm worried that if I were to sous vide it at the final temperature, the time it would take to properly brown, it will overcook it. Thanks, Randy. Do this instead. Do this instead. Cook it at medium, medium rare, like 57 or something like this. and do it for a long time to tenderize it, you know, as long as you have. Then, uh, 4 hours, three, two, somewhere between 3 and 4 hours before you have to serve it, pull it out of
+
+[44:07] the, uh, the bath, right? 4 hours before you server. pull it out of the bath. Open it up, let the surface dry off, cool it down in the open air for several hours. Right? And then, like as it starts cooling down, throw it into your a 1000000000 degree
+
+[44:24] oven. And then you can brown it and it will have cooled enough that it won't overcook, but you'll also still be good on the
+
+[44:31] inside. And I think that's a better way to go. That's how I typically do that kind of stuff. You can, in fact, let it cool all the way down and then just roast it in super high heat oven and be good, or you can chill it in water and do it, but that's what I
+
+[44:45] would do. And we have, I got to read this or Ken's going to rip my head off, right? we're about to be we're about to be ripped off the air. There's something else we needed to talk about today. What was it? Oh, the pharaoh's coffee coffee grinder. I'm not going to get to talk about the Ferris coffee grinder. Is anyone interested in the Ferris coffee grinder? Stas is not interested. I think there are some people who are interested. It's very good grinder, needs some modifications. I have a, I have a bunch of STL files that people can print that I'm going to put up on the, on, on my Twitter account eventually so that people can modify their
+
+[45:12] ferrous grinders. Okay. Uh, Ken writes. I was a little disappointed that an entire show is not devoted to my last email on
+
+[45:19] Parmenides and the epistemology of the sandwich, although I might be a little behind on the podcast. No, we did not go into it on a whole thing. Although the sandwich has been brought up several times. I'm not gonna get into it now because I'm just going to go crazy if I do. Undaunted, I write again and ask, could this idea amount to something? Consider that most slow cooker meat recipes require initial searing in a separate
+
+[45:39] vessel because you cannot get the mired reaction and traditional slow cooker, except for the dump and go meals. What do they call it? Dump meals? Yeah, dump, yeah. Dump meals. Terrible idea, dumb meals. Similarly, usually reverse issue is sous vide cooking. We have the ability to add various umami elements to cooking, such as anchovies, marmat, mushrooms, soy sauce, fish sauce, and somewhere in the same neighborhood are products like liquid smoke.
+
+[46:04] Don't forget coconut amino. Do you like cocon amino stars? don't know. Coconut aminos? Do you like the name? Sure. Oh, yeah. I have this dim memory of Dave getting some press years ago for a burger, not the ketchup soup dumpling thing, but another
+
+[46:18] process in which he cooked meat separate from the burger to extract some flavor to add later.
+
+[46:22] So with that as a background, could there be manufactured, self-stabilized, freeze dried
+
+[46:26] Myard powder, or a group of powders with a fairly wide utility. If this is a worthy idea to pursue, then in lieu of a MacArthur
+
+[46:34] Genius Award, I would be happy with a Booker index. I don't know, maybe Booker Next Award. Best Kenningberg. Well, what I used to do is I would make like hyper thick, uh, I would like roast the hell out of a lot of meat and then
+
+[46:48] just uh, make like a hyper broth of that and then reduce that down and then circulate meat in that hyper in that hyper
+
+[46:56] broth. So the entire inside of the hamburger uh, tasted like uh, this kind of hyper broth. So it was a little bit poached, but it was okay because then I was going to pull it out and steer the hell out of it anyway. But then, because what I noticed when you're doing a lot of low temp cooking is that you never have a lot of those high heat flavors on the meat, even if you do a
+
+[47:17] post seer on it. That's why, like, you know, if we're dealing with like short ribs and stuff, there's textual reasons as well, but taste reasons why it's never going to taste quite the same.
+
+[47:25] So I would do it. People make meat extracts. The flavor industry makes meat extracts. And we could, and like, conceivably, you could buy like a hyper meat extract, uh, that, you know, was all brown and stuff that didn't have 8 boatloads of salt in it, which is the reason why you can't use bullion cubes, stuff like
+
+[47:44] that, because bullion cube is MSG, which all of you know I have no problem with, necessarily, even though I don't really use it. Uh, salt, which unfortunately would analyze. And then the rest of it is like these flavors. So yeah, someone, doesn't someone make meat straight meat extract? Any of you guys British? What about Bovril? Bovril? No, what's British here? Anyway. I don't know. We'll work on it. Let anyone know. Come into the chat room. Next time I'll talk about Pharaos and some other stuff, talk about the 1st week of the museum exhibit on cooking issues.
+
+[48:18] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[48:29] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:48] Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This program has been brought to you by Ciderweek, New York City, happening November 6 through 15th, 2015. For more information, check out ciderweek nyc.com. Cider week helps to bring profitability to local orchards while reviving heirloom Apple varieties by cultivating awareness of
+
+[0:18] craft cider. Ciderwheat connects cider makers from New York State, and select pioneering guest
+
+[0:23] siteries outside the state to buyers from top restaurants, bars, and retail shops across New York City. Those culinary tastemakers, in turn, help increase consumer awareness of cider's pleasures by hosting public events, tastings, dinners, classes, and pairings that build
+
+[0:40] appreciation and demand for regional ciders. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:03] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn, every Tuesday, always late, supposed to be here at 12, am not, run until about 1250 or so. Yeah. Yeah. Got Nastasio, the Hammer. Lopez here in the in the shipping container. And in the engineering booth. We got and Jackie molecules, Insley, and Rebecca, how you guys doing? Oh, yeah. I got to get myself a bomb. I good. It's good to be back. I'm just playing this crazy video on loop. Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, I should talk about that. It's horrifying. So, so you know, like, uh, I was going through my box of crap the other day. And I came across, uh, by the way, calling your questions
+
+[1:50] two, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So I'm going through my box of crap the other day. And I noticed an old VHS tape from when I was in art school, like back in like 95, 96, something like this. And it's a piece I did called what I am thinking about. And pretty much, and I had been making, like, flip books of this image in my mind for years, like little flip books. Have you guys ever seen my little elf character I draw sometimes? Yeah, it's that elf character. been with me for years. So anyway, so, um, I uploaded the video to YouTube. I got someone to digitize the VHS, which is super low quality. I wish I could find the original discs. And by the way, like it was really hard. Like, when you see it, you'll know, like, it was really hard because I'm walking a very long distance in it, and so
+
+[2:42] to do the chroma key on it back in the, like, mid 90s, like the computers weren't so great. And so I rolled a giant, like a 200 foot long sheet of paper down my mom's street outside of her house. I had a friend walk behind me with a giant blue sheet that I had painted, like rolling it behind me as I walked.
+
+[3:04] And so, you know, there's some bleed through. I had some problems with the chroma key. I had some interlacing problems when I was doing the early. It was like after effects version one or something like that, whatever, whatever it is. What does it mean? Okay, well, let me explain what the video is. It's on YouTube. You can go look at it. Chat room got it. Oh, they got it? They got it. All right. So it's called, uh, so, so, so basically it's just this elf who's me, like an infinite number of me just jumping into a woodchipper over and over and over and over and over again with a band playing.
+
+[3:33] Like that's what it is. That there's no more meaning than that. There's an arts business. This is what I'm thinking about. It's I told you this many times. People who said she can figure out, she could write an essay on it. Yeah, course. I spent, you know, like many, many, many hours critiquing this piece and, you know, like defending it in critiques and all this other stuff. Kind of felt like lemmings. Yeah, you know? Well, the whole point of it, I'll give you a little hint, Styles. a little insight. I'll give you a little insight. Notice that I'm not I'm not upset about it. Just jumping in the wood chipper. Just there. Here I am jumping in the wood chipper again and again and again. It should keep jumping in the wood chipper. And it's very important that it's not gore, that it's like it's, you know, it's cartoon blood coming out of the side of the
+
+[4:21] wood chipper. And, uh, I believe, I believe this is pre-Fargo woodchipper, I believe, I believe this is pre-Steve
+
+[4:29] Busemi jamming his enemies into a woodchipper, I'm pretty sure. anyway. So, and pretty much anytime you see me staring off into the distance nowadays, this is what's going on in my
+
+[4:40] head. Danish, danch, danch, danch. Yeah. Tim in the chat room says it reminds him of a craft for video. Oh, I'll take that as a compliment. I went back to my high school, which I hadn't been to in, you know, like five, 6 years or something like that. And I was like, I need a sousaphone. And I need a
+
+[5:03] bass drama and a symbol. And they're like, all right, then let me take it to my mom's house and like film the video with that stuff. I sewed the elf out of it myself. And the curly shoes are real. I still own them and uh, there used to be a leather joint in the uh, in um, Soho. They moved outside up near Chelsea. They might be gone now, run by a guy who anytime you bought anything from as you leave, he'd be like, God bless. That's all you would ever say, God bless Adar leather. And yeah, I got all the green suede from him, made the last, made the shoes, you know,
+
+[5:33] it was a full, full service, you know, art project back in the day. Anyway, still thinking about it. Figured I'd post it there. Okay, how was your Halloween? How many, how many, how many listeners did I just lose when they're like, that's what that guy's thinking about? come out. I'm out Wait how was your Halloween? Kids are freaking animals. Crazy. I had, listen to this. I had 150 full-sized freaking candy, full-sized candy bars, and by the way, a good selection, Jack, naming some candy bars. Uh, Snickers. Had it. Twix. Mr. Good Bar. did not, but I did, I had 5th Avenue, and I had paydays. Ooh, paydays. Payday. I like the payday, underrated bar. Everyone loves everyone who can have peanuts, enjoys the payday, but no one talks about the payday. I like it. Also, like, I always like to have a certain amount. I also had like the entire Eminem, like, you know, the all of the new and the regular M&Ms. Oh, like the pretzel M&Ms. Oh yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mega, which are the large scale M&Ms. coconut, right? I don't know if they had those at the store, but I also had like not the full range of skittles because there's 150 different kinds of skittles almost at this point. But like, you know, a decent Skittle selection. The full size Twizzler, which, by the way, would be my call, the full-size sour patch pack. Yeah, and Stas is turned off her vegan face for that one. And, uh, so anyways, it's like, uh, you know, I had 150. And uh, pounded it, gone. Gone. I had to go out. I bought 50 more and they still wiped this out. Booker and Dax were so depressed because they thought they were going to have all this candy left over. But then, of course, when, you know, we started cooking dinner and Booker got picking anyway, so Jen took away all of his candy. I don't think she threw it away. She's not like, she's not that. She's not the, it's going in the chute because you see, when you live in New York, you have a trash chute. Once that stuff's gone, there's no getting it back. You know what I mean? It's not like some sort of secret fake trash, like you might have somewhere in the suburbs or something like this. It's like if it goes in the chute, that's it's done. There's no like going out to the curb and trying to resurrect it or anything. You know what I mean? We have an announcement. Jen's going to be on the show. at some point. That's not an announcement if we don't have the point yet. Before the end of this year. We have to say it out loud, then it'll happen maybe, right? Do people actually want my wife to come on? Are they going to call and ask her questions or something? Yeah. Yeah. All right. you know, tweet on in if that's what you want to have happen. Let me know. Uh, also, uh, so, you know, the museum, this has been the 1st week of the museum being open to the public,
+
+[7:56] um, tomorrow will actually be the whole 1st week because we're closed Monday, Tuesday. So we were open from Wednesday to Sunday. And I think it went really well. I stole some stuff to fix, but I think it went really well. And I've been going to Greenpoint more, so I've been going to all the Polish joints. I got to get Lucas, you know, to help me out. I bought. So in Poland, they have this soup, which I think is called Zurek. I think that's how you pronounce it. And it's got in it this stuff called Zur, which I thought was Zur, as in like
+
+[8:25] Zur and the Codan Armada. Are you a last Starfighter fan? Jack, last Starfighter, anyone? Robert Preston's last movie, freaking the great Robert Preston from the Music Man. You're familiar with Robert Preston Styles? What the hell? What the hell is wrong with you people? Seriously, America. You live in it. Learn it. Anyway, the last Starfighter was awesome because it was one of the 1st times when video games were painted in a very kind of good light.
+
+[8:49] This guy did nothing but play this video game called The Last Starfighter, and he lived in a kind of a trailer, not kind of, he lived in a trailer park, and he played it, but he got like the,
+
+[8:56] like, the, a universe wide high score, and it turned out that these video games have been planted all over the universe, which is
+
+[9:03] strange because you'd think that, like, you know, they would have had better technology all over the universe. But no, they were using 1980s video games. So they planted them all over the universe and people who got super high scores were actually sucked up, brought out into space to become
+
+[9:14] starfighters to fight against Zuhr and the Kodan Armada. See what I'm saying? See? Anyways. And so Polish. Anyway, so Zuhr, they didn't tell my favorite part about last time. Well, if anyone cares about last Starfighter, we can have a last Starfighter conversation someday. The best part about that is this guy, this is a life lesson I took. At the end, the codans are smashing into a planet. Like their starship has been destroyed by, you know, the Starfighter guy. They're going in, and the guy who's kind of a wussy is like, man, what? Because it's planes, the thing's crashing. What do we do now? And the guy goes, he has this little eyepiece with a motor on that goes, like a heads up
+
+[9:50] display. And he goes, and he just looks at him and goes, we die. And then the thing goes. But I'm like, that's a baller way to go out. The codans know how to go out. They might have been evil, but they know how to go out. So back to Zur, a.k.a. Zur. It's fermented rye flour. So it's like a sourdough, but real thick, and it uses the base of this sour soup called Zurek, which is really awesome. Lukash said it's like kind of Polish version of miso, but the soup is really good. I need, the short story is, I need to learn a lot more about Polish food because everything I've had so far, even though
+
+[10:21] obviously I don't know how to actually make it. So I'm just guessing based on what I read what the stuff's supposed to taste like, but stuff's straight up delicious. You know, what's really good is sauerkraut and mushroom, like, hacked together and
+
+[10:33] cooked, like, pierogi mix. I think it's from a pierogi mixed band with good stuff. Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. So what was I supposed to be talking about today? We have some Twitter questions. All right, let's do a Twitter question, then I'll do a question that came in on the give me a Twitter question. Give it to me. Well, 1st off, do you like the new heart and how they got rid of the
+
+[10:52] star for the faith? Wait, what? The new what? They got rid of the star for favoriting tweets and there's a little tiny heart. I hadn't noticed. I don't know. Do I like it or do I hate it, social media queen? I don't like it. So what's the difference? It's a heart. So they're trying to Instagram it? Is that it? It's trying to be more like Instagram. I like things to be separate. I don't like muddy. like water's muddied. I know, I'm a category kind of a guy. I like categories that say the same. You know how like when you when you go to college and then you come home for the 1st like 10 years. Something changes in the house every time you come home and it pisses you off. It's like that. It's like that. And by the way, the guy who does the video, the guy who did the last series all video, which you should all take a look at the last series all video that Chris did for us, the one where he's like has the secret
+
+[11:39] series all that whispers and stuff. Anyway, he claims to have done this, what we're talking about changing like a well-loved program. He got some serious, serious backlash. Is there a serious backlash on this Twitter thing or no? For sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I have to say, I... I
+
+[11:58] made a persimmon puree, the next day it had a, it has solidified into a very, very firm
+
+[12:04] gel. Any idea why and how to prevent that? Well, I mean, it's full of pectin, but the 1st question I have is, are we talking, what kind of persimmon are we talking? That's all I got. What kind of persimmon? We need to figure out what kind of percent we're talking about. Because you know what's new? I never cooked with. I've always wanted to, is the native persimmon. I saw one growing in Washington, DC once on the mall, and even though I was probably expressly forbidden to. I jumped up, grabbed one, and ate the hell out of it because no one's going to eat it. What do you guys think about this? When you were in a place, right? And, like, obviously, if everybody took a perfume, and they wouldn't be any
+
+[12:35] perfume, but the fact of the matter is that all of them, all of them, everyone is going to hit the ground and rot,
+
+[12:40] right? Every single one. So if you really, really care, like really care. Shouldn't you just eat one, what do you guys think? like at the pair place. Yeah, like at the Brogdale, right? Got to eat them to save them. You gotta eat them to save them. And I'm not even ripping the tree down. It's not like I have to like slice the slice the bark off and like girdle the tree like you
+
+[13:00] do with a pig and you murder it to save it. Like this is, yeah. So, I don't know, what do you guys think? you guys was I wrong to take the persimmon? No way. When I was at Monticello, you know, was I wrong to taste some of the fruit that was clearly going to go to waste because nobody was eating
+
+[13:15] it? No way. Yeah, right? I mean, yeah, I took a rock from the... That's evil. You better not stay on air. You're going to get a blast. Okay, I want you guys to know what Stas is really like. All right, say, say it. From the, what's it called? Parthenon. Yeah, Stas took a freaking rock from the freaking Parthenon, which is just wrong. It's evil. It's like destroying cultural patrimony. It's like, it's evil. under a tree. It's just wrong. It's just wrong. Yeah. Yeah, give me that. give me that again Survey says, yeah, it's not right. Not freaking right. All right. So we got, let me get a question we got, then we'll go back to certain questions. Hey, Jack, just getting into Jack. First, I wanted to thank Dave and Nastasia for answering my writing question back in March when I asked Nastasia about Stanford and how Dave and Nastasia met. Um, this time I have a question for Dave regarding writing cookbooks. This past year, I helped a bioengineering professor teach one of the 1st cooking classes at Stanford that was essentially the science of cooking. He's considering taking his lecture material along with recipes and writing a science of cooking cookbook. So I wanted to ask, what are some of the biggest challenges you faced when writing your book. Also, any advice or suggestions would be great. Best Kevin. All right, well, here's the 1st one, straight up. Don't write somebody else's book. So what you have to do is just look at McGee's book and be like, how is my book going to be different, right? So that's the 1st thing. Like, like, you have to differentiate yourself from Harold McGee's book. You also have to differentiate yourself from the modernist cuisine series. Kenzie's book? Will you let me finish? Yeah, yeah. Kenji's book, which, by the way, apparently is selling like great guns, like selling like crazy. So they're all a little bit different, right? So McGee's book is obviously like the reference book, right? The modernist cuisine book is the book for, um, like the book for kind of new techniques, you know what I mean, in terms of like just an exposition of new techniques and cooking. Kenji's book is kind of like home recipes treated in kind of a scientific fashion and kind of like his
+
+[15:14] blogs, you know, that he wrote, well, his columns for Sirius Eats, if you know that. So, you know, these are kind of like 3 things, and then there's a host of other ones. So like on baking and science, you have like Shirley Corriher and you have like all these other, so it's like your goal is going to be to differentiate yourself, right?
+
+[15:33] Now, if you're just saying you're going to write it as a textbook, and you're going to force people to buy it, and all you care about is like the fact that you're going to force a certain number of students to buy every
+
+[15:41] year that's different. But if you're actually writing a book book, especially in that field where you have some big, big, uh, kind
+
+[15:48] of, uh, things to live up to. Just make sure you're differentiated. And then, you know, obviously if you're dealing with, uh, you know, a bioengineering person, I don't know what the, I don't know what their cooking chops are like, right? So it helps when you're writing a cookbook to really know the
+
+[16:05] subject like really well. So like maybe they have really great cooking shops. I don't know. You know what I mean? But it's helpful. Um, I think it's a lot easier to write a book when, you know, the
+
+[16:17] depth of knowledge you have on the subject is two, three, and 4 times deeper than what you actually write because then everything seems kind of richer and more textured. You know what I'm saying, stuff? Anyway, is this good advice anyway? Is this good advice? don't know. So it's not great. It's okay. Also, test the hell out of your recipes. Just test the hell out of your recipes. If you should test them, but also you should get someone who doesn't
+
+[16:41] know the subject to test them. Also, you should get someone who doesn't know science to read your text because it's almost impossible for a science head to write a science book that actually makes sense to someone who doesn't already know the answers. So, uh, you know, give it to people, to read, who don't understand. Now listen, don't. When the person comes back and tries to change it to something that makes sense to them, almost invariably you will look at what
+
+[17:06] they what they've changed it to and you'll be like, no, that's scientifically wrong now. Now it's wrong. And what that means. That's a note to you in your head that you didn't explain it right the 1st time. So you need to recast the entire thing. And that's why it takes forever to freaking write anything. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Is that better now? Also, if it's thick enough, Nastasia will use it to separate hot and cold foods, but it has to be like 300, 400 pages and like, you know, just
+
+[17:31] that right thickness to make sure that by the time she gets off the subway,
+
+[17:34] can't be too heavy. She can't use his Kenji's book for this. So like, you know, like... Yeah, mine is the perfect thickness to keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold.
+
+[17:44] All right. Let me see. next question. Um, this in from, uh, Pedro Piva. I think it's how you pronounce that? P-A-I-V-A. Bye-bye. Anyway. Hope everything's okay over there. Property already gotten tons of questions regarding this issue, but if not, can we have Dave's point of view on the
+
+[18:06] Red and Processed Meats thing from the World Health Organization? Oh, yeah. That's what they were talking about last week. World. Yeah. Well, the truth of the matter is, uh, oh, I asked, uh, my girlfriend, who is a doctor, and the answer was that almost everything uh, will cause cancer. Uh, if you eat it like there's no tomorrow. Keep up with the good work. Okay, so I didn't have a boat ton of time to look into this. Uh, but I, I will, I went to the uh, the WHO, which is who dot in, right? is their website. And I looked up their Q and A. And so you got to remember is all they've done is they've classified, hoop, they've classified, um... Because in my head, that's how
+
+[18:48] Justino has said, too. You know what I mean? But they, uh, they classified meat as a carcinogen, meaning that they
+
+[18:57] feel, they feel the epidemiological studies are good enough to say that it causes cancer. you know, definitely, you know what I mean? Good epidemiology. But not, that doesn't mean that, that there's a huge increase related to it. First of all, let me just be very clear. As far as I can tell, and someone tweeted and tell me I'm wrong. Please, please. someone tweet didn't tell me I'm wrong. But I don't believe there's any new studies. This is just an aggregation and a decision based on studies that are already out there. So if you already thought the studies that were out there were crap, we're horse hockey, then nothing has changed, right? And here's what they said. Here's what they said. According to, this is how many, question 12, how many cancer cases every year can be attributed to the consumption of processed meat and red
+
+[19:42] meat? You ready for this? This is, this is, according to the most recent estimates by the global burden of disease
+
+[19:51] product. The global burden of disease project, an independent academic research organization, about 34,000 cancer deaths per
+
+[20:01] year, worldwide are attributable to diets, high in processed meats. That seems really weak. 34,000 worldwide, worldwide. How many 1000000000s are we now, guys? Also show me those diets. Yeah, I know. Look, all those studies are horrible. But show me, show me the, show me the, 34,000 out of how many billion? I don't know, many. Anyway. Our attribute are attributable to diets high in processed meat. And here, eating red meat has not yet been established as a cause of cancer. However, if the reported associations were proven to be causal, the global burden of disease project has estimated that
+
+[20:38] diets high in red meat could be responsible for 50,000 cancer deaths per year worldwide. Also, remember, these are diets high in those things, not any consumption of those things, but high in those things. And so we're talking, I believe, for processed meat. What they're talking about is 50 grams a day. So roughly 2 ounces of processed meat every day. Which is more than I, you know, more than I eat. I mean, I wish I ate more, processed meats because I love them. They are delicious. I don't know anyway. So I think pretty weak, but at some point, either someone that I know... Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow, that's a lot of zeros before the 1st number. Yeah. Anyway, the point being that I wouldn't worry about it overly much. And you know what? Like, if I had to give up, uh, country ham, or like take that 1000000000 percentages of zeros and like, and like add that to my thing, like, I think I take the
+
+[21:37] hand. You know what I mean? Got a caller. Caller, you are on the air. Hey, Dave, I have a question about wine. I've been making a concerted effort to drink more wine and to start appreciating it more.
+
+[21:52] Good man, nice. in in my efforts. I'm wondering when you're sort of profiling the aroma of a wine. Is there any technique or way that you're aware of? And this is good for food in general to, to sort of like reset your, um, your sense of smell, um, because like, I get like 30 seconds into smelling a glass, and then like, get used to the smell, and I can't tell, I
+
+[22:19] can't, uh, sort of latch onto, um, what it, what exactly reminds me of before I can't even smell it anymore. Um, yeah. I say, it's a good problem. So I think everything depends on kind of what, what you're uh, specifically tasting, like what, there are things and I wish I had remembered. Why am I so stupid? Like, uh, the flavorious who do this kind of thing for a living, smell things for a living, they have things that they specifically do to kind of get around this.
+
+[22:44] And he, and Jack, fast tag, the guy who was our consultant in the, uh, in the exhibition. like, yeah, I do. and now it's erased. I remember him saying, yeah, I do, and that's gone. Isn't that crazy? I hate that. But like, it depends. So, like, for instance, like, for palate cleansing, if you're doing country hams, it's apple juice, not cider juice.
+
+[23:02] When you're doing wines. I mean, a lot of times, I mean, if you're eating something, it's relatively easy. I just want to make sure you're eating something that's not going to like rip the wine apart. You know what I mean? Like nothing and as high an acid, uh, you know, too high an acid, um, but also like I just like put it down for a while and do other stuff till
+
+[23:22] I clear out and then kind of pick it up again. But I don't do like constant nosing. Like I'm not, we should ask Jeff. Why don't you text Jeff? have this number. Anyone? Anyone tweeting in what they use? Come on, chat room. Hook me up. But I also find it's really like... Smell your hand. Ooh, let me see. Onions. They say chop onions. You know, if you chop a lot of onions, like, it takes me 2 or 3 days to get the onion smell off my fingertips. That doesn't happen to you, or if you eat a lot of onions, it comes out. Garlic, yeah, that happens to me with garlic. It's the worst, right? Don't you hate like waking up in the morning and like give garlic. You're like, get out, get out. There's actually like research studies and it's so like, I wouldn't mean, man, I don't know, smell your hands. Tell me if they smell like garlic. I don't know. No? What do you cook last night, sis? Eggplant Parm. Ooh, really? For real? I didn't bread it. So in what sense, eggplant parm does? Just some eggplant and sauteed in with tomato sauce and the mozzarella slice on top. Nice. It's not eggplant parm. Phil was over. He didn't want to eat heavy. What? Did you squeeze out all the water? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it good? Yes. Really? Was it stringy? No, I, no. I bought a thin one. And the skin wasn't gross? No. Alright. Alright. Jack, what's your thoughts, and Rebecca, what are your thoughts on the non-fried eggplant Parm? I think it kind of has to be fried. You would like it. I'm sure I like it. Although in the hip pressure cooking book. I haven't tried it, but there is a pressure cooked eggplant Parm style thing. Here's my thing. I'm sure it's delicious. It's not what I consider an eggplant parm. Sure, but what do I call it? I don't know. Was there Parmigano on it? No. I mean, like quite clearly. Quite clearly. No parm. No freaking Parm. Was it made by someone from Parma? No Parm, no Parmigano. Like, you know what I'm saying? Because Bill's not eating much dairy either. What a dilly. It's like, the hell? Just eat a raw eggplant. Just give them a raw freaking eggplant and just chow on it like a goat. You know what I mean? Christ sakes. Did you answer this guy's question? I don't know, did I? Is he still there? I don't know Yeah. I'm good. Thank you. All right, cool. Well, listen, I want people to tweet in the answer because I'm just not good at that stuff. You know what I mean? Anyway, someone will do it. All right. Okay. Let me see. I'm actually gonna get to some of these questions here. Okay. This is from Wade. Taneth. Longtime listener. I want to say thanks for the interesting food ideas. Last week, Chris from the green zone. This is a follow-up. This is a good one, people. Last week, Chris from the green zone called in about his attempt to make a
+
+[26:10] chartreuse like liquor, which precipitated, you know, flocked out after adding the honey. I think you are correct, suggesting it could be an ionic reaction of suspended green particles with cat ions in the honey.
+
+[26:22] One idea occurred to me from an application in the pharmaceutical industry, which uses hydroxypropylcellulose, hydroxypropylcellulose,
+
+[26:32] HBC. To stabilize suspensions of nanoparticles. The HPC is non-ionic and forms a barrier around small particles preventing them from agglomerating.
+
+[26:41] I love that word. I love that word, agglomerating. Don't you like that word it says? Why, you don't like it? Does it sound like sport to you? A little bit. Really? You like aggregate better? I prefer agglomerate. Do you like the word pre-agglomerated? No. Okay. Uh, I do. Agglomerate. It sounds like, it sounds like a space word. agglomerate. It's also unique in that it has excellent solubility in water and ethanol.
+
+[27:06] I think it could help to provide stability for this liqueur. Using sugar instead of honey should help too. My suggestion would be to use 0.3% of, I'm going to spell it,
+
+[27:16] C-E-L-N-Y HPC, which stands for hydroxy purple cellulose, SSL, to stabilize the particles in the liqueur. It is the lowest molecular weight grade of HPC produced. So we'll give some extra bodies slash mouth feel, but not thicken too much. For a liter of liqueur, you would add 3 grams of HPC. Dry mix to 3 grams of HPC with about 50 grams of sugar. Put the liquor in a blender on low, and then add the HPC sugar mixture, blend for 30 seconds. We'll get a little foamy, but will settle to be clear. Full disclosure. Wade works for Aniso, NISSO, which manufactures this product. But anyway, he's playing with it with cocktails for his own fun anyway at home, so I'm
+
+[27:56] going to give it a try. He said he'd send us some. Should we get some and play around it? Yeah, send us some. Wait, the liqueur or the? No, the freaking HPC. Hey, Jack, if they're going to mail samples like this, where should they mail it to? Ooh, that's a good question. I will provide that address in a second. In the meantime, we have a caller. Caller, you were on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Robin New Hampshire. are you? Doing all right. How is New Hampshire doing? That's nice. Beautiful weather. Yeah, you setting off fireworks, living free or dying? Love that place. The way to be in life. Yep, yep. What's up? Hey, uh, quick question. I want to melt a bunch of chocolate in my circulator. So I was just gonna vacuum bag it and throw it in overnight and melt it down. Is that a safety problem? No, no, it's 100% fine. The only issue, and I know people that do this because you can get exactly accurate, so you don't have to do it like up and down, up and down because you can get it so that you never melt out, you know, all of
+
+[28:50] the, all of the good crystals in it. So, yeah, it's great. The only problem is you have to make 5000000000% sure that you don't, um, that you don't get water in it. Right, right. So it's like, So it'll just hease up and be nasty. Yeah, and like, unless you're doing like a lot, because it's not going to be like hyper, like thin, probably, like there's a tendency to kind of lose some to the to the bag. So, like, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you know, dry the hell out of the bag before you're done and then
+
+[29:22] get, like, one of those plastic pastry scrapers, put it, like, down a your thing and shoop and like, you know, get all the stuff out or else you end up losing a lot, especially, I don't know what kind of bag you're using, but if you're using one of those, uh, one of those, um, uh, just tell me, you know,
+
+[29:38] the, with the, with the, with the crisscrosses. You know what I'm talking about? Food saver. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you're using a food saver bag, like, you're going to lose a lot just to those crisscrosses. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, it's totally doable. Is it a is it a problem having it 30 to 45 sk for 12 hours? Does the water activity make that a non-safety issue? Yeah, it's not, there's no, there's like, remember, there's a 0 water activity. Okay. And, and, you know, they're, they're, you know, yeah, I can't imagine anything that's gonna, I can't imagine anything that's gonna happen in that. I mean, look, someone wrote me back and saying, I'm killing people, but I know people that do it. And, um, you know, obviously people store chocolate at that temperature and it's molten state for a long, long time, not in a vacuum, but
+
+[30:23] they'll have a giant vat of it. And then, you know, the stuff at the bottom is not like it's getting a lot of oxygen. So, yeah, no, you're. right I mean, I looked up some numbers and cocoa butter's like .41 to .56 water activity,
+
+[30:39] encouvature is around .3. So nothing lives below .85 or something, right? Yeah, I don't know the exact numbers, but remember, like water is a complete enemy. like water is the complete enemy of chocolate. So I don't think, in other words, like, I don't think anything will grow. You're not killing anything. So if there's anything in there, it, you know, it's not going to kill it. You know what I mean? But I don't think it's there's nothing there for it. There's nothing there for things to grow on. You know what I mean? Right. So you don't have to worry about the botulum box. That's always been my big scare with putting stuff in bags. Yeah, now, look, it's also like got like a pretty hefty dose of sugar in there, which even if there was a little water, you know, would like form such a concentrated syrup that it would be
+
+[31:19] hose, you know, nothing can, I don't think anything can survive in that. awesome. Yep. All right. Have fun. All right, thanks. Oh, so this mailing address. Yeah, so it's 1130, Bedford
+
+[31:35] Ave, box 301. Brooklyn, New York, 11216. You can rewind if you missed that. Let me take the last question that we had in on the email and then maybe Rebecca, you have a couple more for me for Twitter or no? That's a thumbs. Alright, cool. All right. Greetings from Pittsburgh. from Justin. Oh, wait, no, there's just 2 questions. Greeting from Pittsburgh. This is Sarah. I've been making an aging eggnog, raw eggs, cream, maple syrup, nutmeg, cinnamon, a bourbon,
+
+[32:07] rum, and brandy for a few years now, and I think I am narrowing in on the best mix of ingredients and aging.
+
+[32:13] The longest I have let it age is about 13 months, but I usually let it
+
+[32:17] go, but I usually let it go for 11 months. My question to Dave is, how long is too long? Is there a point it will stop mellowing out and begin to be unpleasant, or is it possible it will get even better? Totally possible, Sarah, that it might get better. I don't know what the answer, like, because here's the here's the issue. what you need to do. Like, obviously, duh. what you need to do. I've had eggnog 2 years and 3 years old, I think. Nick Bennett, remember, had some that
+
+[32:42] was... I forget how old the oldest one he had was Nick Bennett, who now is, you know,
+
+[32:45] at porch light, killing it, doing awesomely. Um, I forget how old the oldest one he has, but this question is, is it going to get better? That's going to be a matter of case. And so here's what you need to do. You need to make the same recipe 3 years running. You can make whatever you want, like, as well, but you're gonna make, uh, like, at least enough to save a bottle and have a bottle every year.
+
+[33:08] So you're going to make at least 3 extra bottles, okay? And then, uh, you're going to do that every year. And then year three, or year four, I guess, you'll have
+
+[33:17] a bottle of three-year-old, a bottle of two-year-old, and a bottle of one-year-old, and you'll taste them all side by side. We have some at the lab that's like 3 years old now. In that low boy? Oh my god. Does it have to be refrigerated? Uh, I don't know. I dig it. don't know man. Oh, jeez. All right, Stas and I may or may not, if we ever go back, because we're supposed to not have a lab anymore, but we have a low boy somewhere that apparently has some eggnog in
+
+[33:42] it, and we'll taste it. But we don't know if it's better or worse because we don't know what it tasted like at the get go. Yeah, we did. I don't. Yeah, you had I didn't. You did. You did. You'll make it. Yeah, Stats doesn't pull any punches. She's, you know, it does mean that way. Okay. Um, Justin from Forest Hills right, and I was wondering if Dave had any suggestions for projects or resources to learn soldering and other basic electronic skills.
+
+[34:07] I don't think I'm comfortable animating dead frogs, but I would greatly appreciate any other suggestions. Did I talk about that on the air wants or something? Most likely. Really? Anyway. Uh, yes, I would not start uh, for your 1st soldering project uh, animating uh, dead frogs. But, um, the problem with soldering is like, you gotta remember, like, I'm old, right? So like when I was when I was a kid, we still used wire wrap. You know what I mean? For those of you that are really, really old, and then, like, you know, all of the components that I would solder were all through whole components,
+
+[34:38] meaning, like, you know, you put pins through a board and solder them.
+
+[34:42] Whereas now, like the cool thing to do is like all kind of surface mounted stuff, which is impossible for me to solder because it's so fine pitch.
+
+[34:50] buy a decent soldering iron. First thing is buy a good soldering iron with a very fine tip, get yourself some decent solder. I, someone must make a good lead free solder now, but most of the solders that you buy are really crap at wedding. Uh, and then just go online and choose like a, you know, go on uh, add a fruit or go on uh, Spark Fun and find some sort of like fun cooking thing that you want to do. Like, I want to build them. I don't have time, but I want to build some moisture meters so I can auto water some plants. I'm going to put some citrus up and auto water it. That be pretty cool, right, Styles? Right. So then you get a board with a kit, and you saw it, solder it up, and, you know, practice, and then eventually, you know, in no time, you'll do some microprocessor development, and then you'll be doing your own boards, and then you're going to go, you know, right, you know, nowadays, it's
+
+[35:33] like, it's child's play. You just learn some PCB, which is the board editing software, and, you know, you output, and like 2 days later, someone ships you a board in the mail. It's not even particularly expensive anymore. When I was a kid, if you wanted to make a board, you got out of drill, you got to,
+
+[35:48] you know, you took you to your Xerox machine and you Xeroxed a black and white negative of what you wanted. You painted the, no, not black and white, not reverse. wasn't a negative. the positive. You'd paint a board, a copper board with goop. And then you'd put the paper that you put the clear plastic that you put in the Xerox machine over it. you'd expose it with a light, then you'd wash off the goop that you hadn't cured. I guess it is negative. I don't remember. And then you put that in an acid etching bath, etch it out, and then you'd sit there with a drill and drill the holes so that you could put the resistors and parts in. In other words, it was a royal pain in the behind. And, like, often it didn't work because you didn't etch it right or anything. So the world is a much more fun place for soldering stuff now. Anyway, I don't know. Is that decent situation? I don't know. don't know. Anyway. Rebecca, what do you got for me on the Twit air? Well, we got the persimmon guy to write back and he said it was Fuyu, F-U-Y-U. What the hell did you call me? Anyway, yeah, yeah. So those are the ones that you, yeah, eat. It's Kiskog. It got to be a pectin. It just got to be a pectin issue. Anytime you get like a major setback in something, it's it's usually pectins. I don't know if there's a lot of other things going on. I've never made a persimmon jelly, so I don't know if they're particularly or like paste. So I don't know if they're particularly kind of hard set. I don't know. They feel like they, when you, imagining, are you tasting one in your mouth does? Oh, no. I'm like more of a fan of not the ones that you eat fresh, but the ones that you dry
+
+[37:21] out, let down and like get all soft and gooey and then dry out. Do you like those? Like you buy in the Asian stores? You don't like persimmon? Not really. How about you, Jack? What about you, Rebecca? lukewarm. Lukewarm, man. All right. What, even the dried ones? What's that? Even the dried ones? Yeah. What's up, lukewarm? You guys, no help. Anyway, someone will tweet in the answer. All right, what else we got? Any ideas for egg white replacement in a whiskey sour? My girlfriend and I love egg white drinks, but she's developed an allergy from Joel. Wow. Huh, okay. So what would I do here? Well, you could use a milk syrup, right? So if you made a milk syrup, uh, that would, see, when you're making egg white whiskey sour, the egg white's doing 2 things. It's adding texture to the drink, duh, but it's also, uh, it's
+
+[38:13] also, um, mellowing out a little bit of the woodiness of the of the, um, astringency and woodiness of the of the whiskey. So milk syrup would do kind of the same thing. So you could just do, you know, milk syrup is
+
+[38:28] one to one milk and uh, and sugar in a blender. You blend it till it dissolves. And then for every liter of syrup, you add about an ounce of 15% citric acid solution or like 2 ounces of lemon juice. While it's stirring, that'll precurdle a little bit. If you don't do that, the milk syrup will end up being chalky. That milk syrup will last for a long time in the fridge. It will separate, but you can just shake it to get it back, and it foams fairly well, not as well as a whiskey sour does with an egg white, but it foams pretty well.
+
+[38:59] Another thing you can do is milk wash. So you could milk wash the bourbon just by taking bourbon, adding, adding a, for every liter of bourbon, add a, you know, add a liter of bourbon to 250 milliliters of milk, uh, with stirring,
+
+[39:15] blending a little bit of citric acid till it breaks, strain out the solids in a cloth, and now you have milk wash
+
+[39:21] bourbon. You should use it probably within a, uh, within a week or so it'll lose its foaming ability. Um, we're running a test now at the bar with sodium hexametaposphate to see whether that'll stabilize it because I got a tip from somebody in Florida that that might work. So that'll only increase the foaminess. You could also uh, cheat. You could use Versa Whip or something like that and just make kind of a foam on top and shake, but you still want to add something to the whiskey sour that's going to mellow the whiskey a little
+
+[39:51] bit. Otherwise, it's going to be poquito astringent, in my opinion. Anything else? got anything else? They're going to rip us off the air in a minute. We should say that you're doing a science of cooking next week at MoFAD for people to buy
+
+[40:03] tickets, $30 online. that true? You'll be doing Ikojime. Okay, listen, people. So, Emma Boast, the program director at MoFad is like, she's a Japanophile, right? And so she wanted me to do a bunch of crap that I've done recently. I'm like, uh, and I don't have a lot of time to develop kind of new things. Although I'm doing a lot of interesting, fun, new cooking, but just not like necessarily technical related. Like it's like the Polish food I'm interested in now and a bunch of other stuff. Although, Nastasia, by the way, here's big news. generally, Nastasi and I hate each other. Like, like we're bad, you know, we're like oil and oil and water. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, oil near the smoke point that you boil pour water on, and then it vitalizes and like catches fire in the fire, and then the whole kitchen's burning, like, that's normally kind of how we are. However, uh, Nastasia is coming to my place for Thanksgiving this year. is true. Yeah, that's true. yell at you. Yeah, yeah. You said, I can't, I can't. No, you're not allowed to purposely make me get angry on Thanksgiving. That's the that's the one stipulation. You have to put that in check. No purposely making me upset. No getting me spooled up and making me yell in front of my kids or anything like this. All right? Okay. But we will be doing some fun stuff. Like, for instance, we're gonna, I'm gonna do the turkey in the tandor this year. tandor turkey. So maybe we can get, uh, because I don't think I'm going to get a chance to shoot a turkey in the head because I'm not that good at it and it would be illegal anyway. Maybe we should we get some heritage heritage birth. tweet out about it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But that wasn't what we were talking about. You said I had to talk about something. Oh, yeah. So, like, I wanted to do something relatively new, and she was like, oh, yeah, the Ikigime in a long
+
+[41:44] time, and I'm actually thinking about Ikigime and slaughtering techniques for my next book as part of my next book. You're going to have the big tub and all that. I don't know exactly how I'm going to do it. I'm going to do clove oil, probably, and we'll do the Ikigime, but, you know, I don't know. We got to see what kind of live fish we can source the demo. We're going to do that. We're going to do some oldies, but goodies, like we're going to do 1000 year old eggs. And we're going to be at the Bass Pro in Bridgeport. Is that for real? Yeah, well, we're still working on getting access. The basketball will be there. Yeah. Well, we'll be there when Bass Pro opens, but Stas wants to do the radio show. Hey, Jack, nice for you to know. We want to do the radio show from the Bass Pro in Bridgeport. I'm totally down to do this. Right? Yeah, when? I don't know. It's the opening and they're giving away a pontoon boat. Stas is making this up. Yeah, that's totally alive. She's making this up. That's just a lie They might be. Look, we love Bass Pro. We might have to do this. We might have remote broad pass from, yeah. No, this is like people, people. I love every little bit as we go in and say like it's years later, but you get a little bit of real stars as we go. This is all wishful thinking on Nastasia's part. She has not yet contacted anyone. There's not even a basketball. I contacted someone about doing the show from there. they said yes? No, they haven't responded. Exactly. But we are going to do the show from there. If it's from your car, we're going to do the show from there. What? Yes. We got it's the opening. It's the big there's going to be famous people and hunters. What famous people going to do? Hunters. famous hunters? Yeah. You, you're the famous person. We're not famous. They're going to get Peter
+
+[43:16] commits you. Peter, uh, Turkey in the head. I'm not allowed to. I don't have a license that allows me to shoot a turkey in the head in the state of Connecticut. And if I did, the only thing I would be allowed to have at the house would be an air rifle and they don't allow hunting, how many times? They don't allow hunting turkeys with air rifles in the state of Connecticut. Hey, guess what? All right, next week, we'll be back with more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[44:11] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This program has been brought to you by Ciderweek, New York City, happening November 6th through 15, 2015. For more information, check out ciderweeknyc.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRaternetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Aberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:35] Brooklyn, on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12, a little late as usual. 1245. Thereabouts 1250. We are super pleased. Oh, we got, as usual, we have, we have Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Hello. Hello. And actually, we're going to be talking about something that she's a fan of for a freaking change. What? Yeah. Yeah. Jack in the engineering booth. How you doing, Jack? I'm good. I just got a free bowl of chicken noodle soup from Jackie at the Roberta's kitchen. really nice of her. Yeah, how is it? really good. What kind of noodles? Flat noodles? No, I like some kind of handmade pastas in there. Have they fallen apart? They gotten mushy yet? They're getting there. Yeah, that's the problem, right? Yeah. We have also Rebecca Live tweeting out there. Rebecca, how are you? Hi. But, uh, we can talk about Mushy Noodles in a minute because we have with us today, this week is Cider Week here
+
+[1:27] in uh, in, in the Big Apple. And, uh, presumably. do you guys do, Well, I'll introduce them. ask them whether they also do parries or all these other things, which are getting hugely popular in the UK,
+
+[1:37] right? Perrys are just going nuts. Well, in France. Yeah, yeah. The fresh bone cares. No kidding. Just messing with me. Well, France is, like France, if France were Belgium, they would be the France of Paris, whatever. going to get into it. Okay, we have John Reynolds here, from the Finger Lakes, from Black Duck Cider, and he's here to, you know, let us taste
+
+[1:56] out and talk about some ciders. And we also have, uh, uh, Leif uh, Soundstrom. pronounce that right? Yeah, close enough. Sound from Stiders, and they're in Hudson, New York. And we're here to talk about, well, hopefully we'll get to some actual questions later. If not, I'm sure I'll just rip through some at the end or whatever, but you call in your questions. Hopefully, cider related questions, too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Now, listen, it is my feeling that anyone who has the time, interest, inclination and takes the care to make a cider will also have something interesting to say about most cooking questions. So you don't have to have necessarily a site a related question, but it might be helpful. So let's To that end, I have a caller who called like right at the top of the show who's been waiting, so let's see if it's cider or not. I'll rather see if it's cited with the caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Jonathan from Tempe, Arizona. How you doing? Not a good Apple place, by the way. Tempe, Arizona. good for many things. I love the smell of Arizona actually, frankly, when you get off the airplane, that Arizona smell. I like it, but it's not Apple country. Go ahead, pins on which airport. Ooh. It is not Apple Country. right. This isn't a cider question? but I will definitely be interested in buying some cider. There you go. But it's a question. I ran into it because I just bought a nova circulator, and I started doing some steaks, and I ran into the problem, well, the exact problem that you made the
+
+[3:17] Sears also, where I just can't get a good enough crust in a cast iron pan. on like a on a regular residential burner. Yes. But I do have a baking steel, so I was curious if I should try to maybe put the baking steel on the
+
+[3:34] stove or maybe just heat it in the oven for an hour, just anything. Um, Is there any reason to use the baking steel over the cast iron? And granted, um, it'll be a while before I can make another kitchen, uh, kitchen
+
+[3:49] purchase such as a searsal. So this is just an interim solution. So I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts about baking steel versus cast
+
+[3:57] iron, anything like that. How hot does your how hot does your oven get? 550. Just a regular residential oven? Yeah. So, uh, what I would do in this situation, I would, 1st of all,
+
+[4:09] uh, test this on yourself before you, like, invite a 1000000000 people over for steak. But the thing, I would, I would try the baking steal. I think that's probably a good thing to try. Crank your oven, heat the hell out of it for a while. And then what I would do is keep the oven super cranked, and I would throw the steaks on one side of the, of the thing, and then, um, flip it and hit a different section of your baking. By the way, is your baking steel? How many burners will your baking steel hit if you put it directly on your burners? I mean, I think like 2 total. Okay. Well, you could put it in $550 oven, right? Get some good mitts, heat it, weigh the hell up to 550 so it's nice and even. Then crank your burners, throw it on your burner, put the steak on, and then flip it and put it over on the other side. The one problem with the baking steel as opposed to a cast iron pan is you're not going to be able to get a lot of oil on it, and so it's going to run off and cause fires and flames and smoking, and it's very difficult to
+
+[5:02] get. Yeah, it's very difficult to get a good sear on a pre-cooked piece of meat. Um, because the surface of the, the surface of the meat is all, you know, moundy and bumpy. So you're going to get big blonde areas where there's a concavity at the meat surface. Unless you have a significant quantity of oil. And if you put a significant quantity of oil onto a baking steel that's 550, that's a recipe for huge, huge, as Trump would say, huge problems. So, um, you know, I would work with that. You can paint the oil on. Another thing is, are you pre-searing your meat? I'm not no. Pre-seer, look, I know I know that like our good friend, Kenji, Kenji Lopez Alt, he doesn't believe that
+
+[5:47] pre-seeering is necessary. Here's here's here's where I think he's incorrect about this. Pre-sering reduces the amount of searing time you have to do at the end to get X amount of crust.
+
+[5:58] So, if you do a pre-seer on cast iron before you do your low temp cooking and chill
+
+[6:03] down, before you do your low temp cooking, instead of taking 2.5 minutes to reach a certain crust level on
+
+[6:08] the outside of the steak, it will only take like a minute and a half . So you can greatly increase like how good your crust is, even with your current technologies, without lighting fire to your house and pissing off whoever else lives in your house, you can greatly increase the crust you can produce by simply
+
+[6:23] pre-searing the meat before you do it. Put it, put it start it. My art likes my art, crust likes crust. So you'll get a good flavor development, and while it's true that if you put the same crust on it by doing poster only, you won't be able to probably tell the difference flavor wise between the
+
+[6:39] 2 steaks, and there will be more moisture loss, which again is something we can argue about, but I don't care.
+
+[6:44] I don't mean, I don't I care that you care about it. But I don't care. In other words, I'm not anti-moisture loss and a piece of meat necessarily. So anyway, so I would go that route. I would try to see if a pre-seer can help you without burning your house down. Yeah, I mean, I'd say next time I would just do one pre-seered, one not pre-seered? See the results and then go from there. Yeah, remember, the whole thing about a pre-seer is it's saving you searing time at the end, that's the main thing about a pre-seer. Another thing, another thing you can do is you can, like, let the meat rest longer out of the bag or even put it in a little bit of water to chill it down before you sear it, and then you can do a radically longer sear time on it without overcooking the
+
+[7:25] center. Yeah, I did hear that somebody, I read somewhere where someone will put it bag directly from the circulator into an ice bath for 15 minutes. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm in general anti-that because I run a bunch of tests based on the initial knowledge that I poo-pooed of a guy named Bruno Gouseau, who's kind of the godfather of low temperature cooking, even if he is
+
+[7:45] French. And, um, the, uh, I like the French, by the way, I'm just messing. The, uh, the, uh, so the, if you put a bag directly in ice water, you tend to get less
+
+[7:55] uh, kind of reabsorption of, um, the kind of juices, which again, I said I don't really care about, but most people, when we do the
+
+[8:02] side by side taste test, they prefer the meat that is allowed to gradually reduce uh, in temperature.
+
+[8:08] So I also, anyway, so I'm a fan of just like pull it out of the circulator. Like, I pull, if you, if you're going to do a hard, hard sear, I'd pull it out of the circulator, like, like, a good 45 minutes, maybe 30 to 45 minutes before you're going to eat it, and then for at least like the 1st 15 or
+
+[8:24] so, 20, like leave it on the counter, and then if you want to chill it even further, you can put it into
+
+[8:29] regular, uh, room temp water, uh, you know, you know, regular cold tap water, I wouldn't use ice.
+
+[8:34] And then, and then you can put a monstrously hard sear on the outside of it and still not overcook the
+
+[8:39] inside. But you have to be careful that you don't render the inside so cold that people are like, this steak is not hot in the middle. People don't like that. You know what I mean? Especially because beef fat, the texture of beef fat, it's, you know, unless you're like a cold beef. There are cold beef fat people. I'm not one. No, no. Me neither. No. All right. Anyway, let us know. tweet, tweet back on uh, onto cooking issues and tell us how uh, how, how it went. All right, well, I'm turning this into the cider hotline. So we're only taking cider and Apple calls. And we actually have 2 calls. So one is an Apple question. One is a cider question. Okay, listen, Jack, give me, give me, give these, let's give these guys at least 30 seconds each to give us like who they are and what's going
+
+[9:20] on so that we know and then we'll take the call. Cider call, stay in the line. All right, stay in the line. Dont leave us cider calls because we want them. So, John, go. So I'm black duck cider-y. We're up in the Finger Lakes, basically in wine country. We took really good grape land and planted trees starting about 15 years ago, mainly pear and apple trees. So we've made all our neighbors in the finger lakes hate us. Um, you know, because they think it's great bland. And basically 3 years ago, we got a commercial license. These are all natural fermentations, our siters. There's no finding, no filtering. We don't take anything away. We don't add anything. And, uh, yeah, we make we make 4 kinds. And when you were talking about Perry, one of them is a Perry. I did not bring it today because we are sold out. We sell out quick. Um, but it is a still perry. So it's quite different than most of the English or French perries, because there's no carbonation. Cool. And how close are you to Geneva? I'm halfway between Geneva and Ithaca, so I'm like 25 minutes from Geneva. So, and I actually worked at Diagg station at Geneva, so I worked where sort of the Noah's Ark of
+
+[10:26] Apple's. With like when Phil Force Line was still there? were you there? I was. Nice. So you know Phil. Oh, well I've met him. Yeah. Yeah. Phil Forson, for those, you have no idea what we're talking about. Geneva, New York is the is like, is like the mothership of apples in this country. I mean, straight up. It's like it's ridiculous. And this guy, Phil Force line. I guess best known for going to Kazakhstan and bringing a whole bunch of wild types back. And so they have 1000s of kinds of wild type apples, many of which could be market
+
+[10:55] apples because they're delicious. And anyway, so you want to go ahead and talk a little more about that for a sec before. Yeah, well, I mean, and it's, you know, it's basically the USDA's germ plasma repository, so they're holding these apples, essentially, their varieties. Um, basically, uh, so they don't get lost uh, in in history. And it's true that they went not only to Kazakhstan and Tajikistan, but they went to China for collection
+
+[11:22] trips. And basically the theory is that the Apple sort of originates in Central Asia. And that's sort of the center point of the, you know, silk trade route, and you have trade from China, you know, to the Middle East and so forth. And it, you know, eventually these apples, uh, sort of go, uh, you know, well,
+
+[11:38] to where they grow now in Europe and places like that, it spreads to the US, obviously people bring them over as settlers. But it is an amazing place. It is your tax dollars at work. So the public work. Hard at work. Hard at work. No, no doubt. So the public actually can go there certain times of the year and you can go toward these orchards
+
+[11:55] and, you know, see, you know, 2000 Apple varieties, different ones all in the same orchard. If we have time later, I can, we can talk about visiting, because Nastasi and I, we haven't been there. We went to the Brogdale. We've been to a couple other tasties, but you know, I've been to Geneva with Harold McGee. We could talk about fruit tastings in Apple, Mecca and pilgrimages. Hopefully we'll have time. Before we get the callers, Leif, why don't you give us some story. Give us some lathe. So I'm based in the Hudson Valley. I produce cider in a small barn in Southern Socrates. I had lived in New York City, Brooklyn, for a number of years, spent roughly 10 years working in the wine industry. Various capacities, importing, distribution, restaurants, spent more than a dozen years of my life in restaurants also, but also worked with winemakers in Oregon and
+
+[12:42] Germany doing harvest and so forth like that. That really informed a lot of the kind of transition and focus of cider making for me after I left kind of the wine world to focus on something that was a little bit more indigenous, so to speak, to where I'm living, trying to stay rooted in
+
+[12:59] Hudson Valley and New York State and exploring cider a lot because it has so much in touch
+
+[13:05] and in line with what drove me to be passionate about wine, but also because there's just a lot of unexplored territory at this point. Both been recovering a past and history that siters involved with here in the United States, but also in exploring new frontiers informed by everything from new understandings of flavors and farming and that kind of thing.
+
+[13:25] So yeah, I'm working up there now where this year actually tonight, officially, is the 1st commercial release of the cider. I've been producing for several years. The directive is generally focused on a want of exploring terroir in various areas through
+
+[13:42] cider. That is proved to be a little bit of a naive exploratory element in my
+
+[13:49] case because just the access to certain apples with not being your own farmer, growing your own
+
+[13:53] fruit is incredibly difficult if you're keeping a focus on specific varieties and a specific level of quality. So we're exploring it as much as we can, but right now, producing a couple bottlings of last year. One we have here is all from Columbia County fruit, and there's another bottling for a single orchard fruit. And this coming year from 2015, it's going to be a different program altogether. But with the focus on heirloom varieties that are from North America or some side
+
+[14:18] varieties as well, but hopefully with a focus on limited number of Apple varieties per bottling as opposed to large
+
+[14:24] blends. Try and kind of, you know, focus on what these individual characteristics are for the specific
+
+[14:31] variety. A lot to talk about, but caller, let's get some cider collar, cider collar one. are on the air. So we're going to go with the cider question first, Apple questions, stay patient. Hi, Dave, how are you? Doing all right. Hey, this is a nice coincidence. So I'm trying to track down the elusive
+
+[14:50] Ashmead's colonel, Apple. And so I was wondering if you have any tips for finding that in New York City and or if you have
+
+[14:58] any um substitutions you'd recommend for your liquid intelligence recipes. Yeah, so for those of you who don't know, I really like Ash Means Colonel, because it's a high sugar, high acid, extremely rich kind of
+
+[15:13] apple, there are people who make hard cider with it, but it's actually, I think, probably a very challenging apple to make a hard cider with just because of its high acid content.
+
+[15:22] So I think you probably need to, I mean, cider people, you tell me, but I think it would need a lot of mellowing before you could do it. Except
+
+[15:29] the personal preference, I would say. Right, right. No, and we grow quite a lot of that and it goes into blends. Now, as a straight varietal. Yeah, you would almost have to put it through maloactic fermentation to reduce the acidity of it. And I think that's what people do when they generally make it as a straight varietal. But it's an amazing blend in there. And, uh, there's probably some in this. Well, I know there's some Ashmeads in this cider. Had I known you want them, I would have brought them down to the city for you. Yeah, the collar. Ashmes are fantastic. The 1st ash means I ever tasted was actually from Geneva from the ag station. In New Hampshire, Poverty Lanes Orchards, grows Ashmeads for commercial sale. They ship via Baldur, the distributor here in New York City, and
+
+[16:15] they'll work. I mean, they're probably working overtime now because it's like, you know, I mean, I don't know
+
+[16:20] how whether they'll take calls now. But they, uh, they, they can, they can provide it and uh, Stas, you ever seen it at our green market? I've never seen an argument market. And the problem with, yeah, for the recipes that I, that, so
+
+[16:34] like, you guys don't, I have a book, and in the book is a chapter on apples, specifically apples and cocktail, but they're not fermented apples, they're apples that we use kind of fresh, and I think there's nothing beats ash meats
+
+[16:44] for like cocktail work, like ash meats is like kind of like par excellence, like cocktail apple to work with, even though it is hard to
+
+[16:50] source. Um, I will say this, um, if you're using it in cocktail
+
+[16:55] work and you want to preserve that, uh, kind of like rich acid note of Ashmead's kernel,
+
+[17:01] like, uh, process them right away. I mean, like, um, you know, I've had people, we've ordered the, we've ordered the cases from uh, Poverty Lanes, and uh, they come in and some knucklehead will put the case down in, you know,
+
+[17:14] in a hot basement next to a dishwasher, and then they're toasted. Inside of a day. They're, they're, they're a shadow of their former self. They've lost their richness. They've lost their punch. You know, they've started going to some essence. counter that by saying, like, those apples, though, if left to cure in a good environment can really increase a lot of that richness and complexity of flavor quite a bit, you
+
+[17:36] know. And also on that note too, a variety that may work as a decent substitute that's sometimes easier to find is golden russet. While different, has a lot of similar kind of profiles. I would throw out Cox Orange Pippin, which I don't know in the city, but it probably is slightly easier, but it's another, you know, famous English apple high in acid and very aromatic,
+
+[17:56] but it may also be slightly difficult. You don't really see a lot of cocks here because as educated as you'd hope New York City market is, like we demand crunchy and like a good
+
+[18:07] cox is not is not crunchy. It's more of a crumbly apple, and Americans, I'm very sad to say, can't appreciate the crumbly texture of like an
+
+[18:16] old-fashioned, um, And there's very few places in this country where you can really grow them. Well, I mean, finger lakes is one. affection. Yeah, yeah, they do well, although there's still issues. I mean, it's probably the most difficult tree that we have to grow into orchard. It's also, I mean, I don't know how sensitive all apples are to it, but I was in the Brogdale,
+
+[18:35] we Nastasi and I broke into a section where they were testing cocks on a bunch of different root stocks.
+
+[18:40] wildly different. Same piece of dirt, different root stocks on cocks. And I don't know, like I said, socks on cocks. socks on cocks. Yeah, so, you know, I don't know whether it is more sensitive than most to root stock in terms of flavor, but it was definitely it. I know it was sensitive. It's the only one I've ever done a comparative tasting on. Yeah, well, and it's a very low vigor tree. So that's part of the problem, too. You can't crop them early or the tree never gets beyond a certain height. Yeah, and they just have a lot of issues. They're just susceptible to everything and disease wise insect. And, uh, you know, and that's sort of why even in England, they're ripping them out and replacing them with sort of more modern varieties.
+
+[19:20] Just for that reason. They, you know, it's not economically viable even for them in the motherland. Do you do growing for eating market as well? do. Yeah. So do you find it disheartening that you have to do? Like, for instance, like, it's impossible to get good early season apples because they're always harvested too early because they go soft almost instantly.
+
+[19:40] And so that, they're not, it's not even a point buying like load eyes or transparent here because they're like, there's not good. Yeah, those are. I mean, for me, that's too early. I mean, our sort of earliest ones are like for eating or St. Edmonds Russet, which is another, it's a full rust. It's another English apple, and that one has like a pear drop sort of flavor. It's not very high in acids, but we also use it in a cider blend and that's really for us right at the beginning of September. So I don't mess with any apples generally that are August ripening because I do. They're very short season, very short-lived. And I think the flavor is eh on most of those. Yeah, well, no, also like the people that had no offense to the people I buy them from occasionally, but like they harvest them when they're like baseballs. They're still like starchy, nasty. Wait, we have another caller still on the air? We do. Yeah. Caller, you are you are on the air. Hey. Yes, yes. Your question, sir. Is he still there? Did we lose him? Maybe he dropped his phone. He'll come back. He'll be back. He'll be back. Whenever you get back, get back, because in the meantime, we're going to start opening some cider to taste it. What are we going to taste here first, gents? And by the way, Stas like cider. The one thing in the world maybe that she likes. She likes cider. Nice. Well, I mean, if I can find something to actually open,
+
+[21:02] you have a bottle of dinner? of course we didn't cider makers don't actually carry bottle openers. Oh, look at that, Jack. All right, intrepid engineer Jack Ainsley. So since I came over on the subway and my bottle's sort of a little fool, I'm a little worried that I... Nice. Yeah, sure. Why don't you two? Okay, why don't you describe the ciders that these suckers on the air? don't get to don't get to this. So, so, uh, ours is a, why is this not? uh, I'm having a
+
+[21:34] little technical difficulty with the... I
+
+[21:39] will let the beverage director actually use that. Restaurant man, yeah. Exactly. That's why I shouldn't be involved. So the black duck one is actually our hop cider. Um, and this is mainly sort of heirloom uh, American heirloom fruit, which is different than most of our other ones. We generally use more true cider fruit, English and French bittersweets and bitter sharps, but these are also our hops. So it's Fuggles, Ken Golding, Cascade, um, and a unknown noble hop. Um, in a sense, let me grab a glass. What is hot, huh? Oh, it's hot. Unfortunately, Stas, she loves cider, not a hops person. Oh, I'm so... We need to. jackets. jackets. for you guys. Yeah, how the cops. Jack loves hops. Just smell it. Maybe you won't get hops. Maybe we'll get the other plant in the hop family. Yes, now we're dealing with We're dealing with an unfiltered product here. An unfiltered unfined... Yeah, I mean, this was ambient yeast, you know, natural use fermentation. And essentially with the hops, we pick them. We dry them, we freeze the hops because they're ready in August. Um, or early September. We ferment the gray or, yeah, grapes. We ferment the apples when they're completely done fermenting. At some point, I make a blend of the citers. And I put the hops whole cone in the cider. This was about 5.5 days. I pull it back out and then actually this got bottle conditioned. So it sat another few months in the bottle and basically this is the product. Stas, you might like it because it's dry hopped. not, it's not, obviously, my brain is on fried. It not bitter hot. not bittered. It's not boiled with hops. Right. Well, that's the big difference that when you put heat to hops, that's when you extract out most of the
+
+[23:25] bidders. And, um, you know, essentially when you dry hop, you're getting more of the
+
+[23:30] aromatics of the hops out. And any bitter that's in this is probably more from the apples and less to do with the hops themselves.
+
+[23:37] John, you probably said this, but my mind space for a second. Did you co-ferment the hops with the apples or was it all infused after the fact? No, no. So it's completely fermented. And then I put a blend together from some different tanks and get the base where I want it, and then I add the
+
+[23:52] hop cone after fermentation is complete. This particular one, it's just by taste. These were in for just about 5.5 days. I pull it back out and, you know, then we bottle conditions. So basically, you know, you know, and this is what you get. This is the only product other than I do make a black currant one sometimes that we sort of put something else in other than apples or pears. And I will say the reason we made this is, you know, everyone needs a gateway, and this is our gateway cider for beer drinkers. Nice. I like that. I like that Yeah, Gateway. I just want to make sure the caller got on. Are you on caller? Oh, yeah. Okay, hey, ask your question while we're drinking this. By the way, you should know, because you can't taste it, that there's very good I think there's very good acid control on this. Maybe it's because you're adding also some, um, you know, a little bit of a tannin bitterness or a hop aroma. Maybe that's what bounces out, but very good. Don't you think so? Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, back to that note earlier, you're talking about ash means maybe too acidic. You have to blend it. Again, it's all personal. And I think I'm a lover of higher acid beverages, when I was in the wine world, it was champagne and
+
+[25:02] racing, and Grunner built in, and that was my world. And so the cider definitely leans that way. So I think there's a broad range of what's acceptable, but I think this has a great balance, especially for that bitter
+
+[25:12] note too. Yeah. You have to have some acidity to keep that. To me, it's all about energy in the beverage, which acidity gives everything, which is nice. All right, call her. sorry to cut you off yet again, call her. your question? My question is about keeping. Keeping cider. What's specifically the question? Oh, specifically, specifically, the question is, I've been, you know, doing my own keeping experiments over the years or the last couple years, and I can't seem to get it
+
+[25:39] down like to a science, essentially. Obviously it is, but I can't seem to get it to come out like evenly every single
+
+[25:46] time. And I know that there are a lot of places that do it on a regular basis, you know, like industrially, I think.
+
+[25:52] I figured someone's got to know something about this, you know, that I'm missing. And I was wondering because I know it's involved, similar, you know, hydrocholy type stuff. I was wondering if there's like a synergistic effect with another hydrocolloid, you know, because it's low with oxyl pectin. If there's anything we can do to like, you know, get it, get it evened out. I will say where they do that in France. describe the process for people who have no idea what's going what Keating is or what's going on. So Keving basically is a process where you sort of, we get to what they call the brown cap, which is packed in and things like that come up and you have some of the nitrogen and vitamins and things like that that are in the juice settled down and you essentially take out the liquid in
+
+[26:39] between. So you're basically taking cider and starving it of the things that yeast need to ferment quickly and
+
+[26:49] maybe finish the fermentation. So, you know, then basically you get a very slow fermentation if it's done right, and you can actually get it to stop and have, you know, residual sugar in it,
+
+[27:01] and not have to use other processes, sort of do it. It's a natural way to do it. But even in France and parts of England where they do it, it isn't a science and they don't make it happen all the time. And I will say varieties usually play a big role in it, the bitter
+
+[27:18] sweets generally make it easier to do, and also temperature is a huge factor. It has to be cold enough to make it happen. But not too cold, true. True. And then there's just some amount of luck. It truly is a little bit of luck. And, uh, I mean, I know the biggest producer, uh, in the
+
+[27:39] U.S. that I know that's doing uh, keeping on a commercial level is uh, uh, Kevin from uh, Easy Orchard, which is out in the west
+
+[27:46] coast, and he, it's a hit or miss thing for him. He sometimes get partial keeps. Sometimes it gets bull keeps and sometimes it just doesn't happen and he has to ferment it sort of in a natural way. They do make, I don't know what they are exactly, but they do make some additives, which I would never involve myself with, you know,
+
+[28:02] to, like, help the key along because, I mean, what you're, the beauty of the key is the idea of lassoing the whole situation into kind of this great balance between failing and not failing.
+
+[28:14] And it's also important, I think, to mention that, you know, you can't have residual sugar in a cider from various methods. And one of the other keying methods is this oxidative quality, which is also something you have to kind of monitor and keep
+
+[28:25] in balance with both temperature and air exposure after the fact and so forth.
+
+[28:29] Because, you know, I don't personally don't do keeps because I enjoy some
+
+[28:34] keepsiders a hell of a lot. Like that's not my goal to make any kind of oxidative style of cider. But I think most people, especially on the still side, produce a fairly highly oxidized
+
+[28:43] product now. It does happen. There's many reasons we can discuss why that's the case, but can and should. But yeah, the key, I don't I can't speak to like how to help you be successful. What about the solids content of the juice before it's fermented? That does have something to do it, too. Because, I mean, depending on if you're if you are straining it in some way when you're juicing it or not at all and what's your press and like, what was the texture of the apples and did they squirt through the press and put more sediment in your juice than necessary for that
+
+[29:11] cave? Because the weight of those things, as I understand, it can cause like a difficulty in the true separation of pect into the top and other sediment to the bottom of a cave. Yeah, and I also don't make any kiev citers, although in the past, uh, when I was experimenting. I did make, you know, small 5 and 10 gallon lots of Keith cider and right, I added nothing. Um, and I would get, I'm, I'm, is a rough estimate, probably half of them to work, and the other half didn't. Um, and, you know, I was using true bittersweets and things like that, um, which I'm at least told helps. If you're using straight up dessert fruit. It's, uh, yeah, it's sometimes harder to make it work. As I understand too, like you mentioned bittersweets and so forth, often work a little better because they do tend, some of them at least tend to have a lower nutrient level to begin
+
+[30:01] with. And they also have a higher pH. So that's the other thing that can be considered. Like, that's why a lot of keepsiders that are successful aren't necessarily that high in
+
+[30:09] acidity, or they don't have that sense of acidity in the palate, because they generally start with a higher page to begin with, which also create in a whole new danger zone in that
+
+[30:17] situation, because you have an oxidized juice, that you're leaving a little bit open to the elements, has a high pH, so it's a little bit more likely to be inviting to certain bacteria that you may not want later on.
+
+[30:28] So it's a tricky, but it's also one of these beautiful things that was discovered by
+
+[30:33] accident by people just putting juice outside because they needed a place to store it and it happened to be cold and the
+
+[30:38] chapeau brune developed and they had to salvage what was there and figured this whole method out over a number of years.
+
+[30:44] So delicious mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. Caller, did that, did that help at all? Yeah, it does. I was actually hoping more for like a food science perspective. I appreciate, you know, the natural, you know, amazingness of the apples. But like, I would be probably adding like pectin methylesterase or something like a novo
+
+[31:04] shape or something like that. And I was thinking from, you know, hydrocholic perspective. I know there are a lot of synergistic hydrocoloid interactions. I was wondering if there's something I could just like, you know, see if I can, you know, get it. Have you done a successful key without that yet? Yeah, I have. It's just, it does seem to be, without the pective methyl estrays, you're saying? Or what happened? Yeah, with just basic. Oh, no. No. no. Yeah, me too. Not without the fact of Metal S ray. I mean, okay, so like here's here's here's an example that I don't know what's going to happen. So I'll let I'll let you know. And unfortunately for me, there's too many variables to actually separate the stuff out, but I can't afford a cider press yet. I only have one tree. I'm going to plant more. By the way, what do you guys think about fall planting? You profile planting or anti? No, no. I think it can work as long as you mulch it and, you know, get it watered in and we don't have severe, severe winners. I'll talk to you. to you after the show because I want to plant some apple trees, but I don't, you know, whatever. I'm not gonna get into it. But the, I mean, I will if you want, but the, um, so I juice with, with like, uh, regular, you know, human, like home juicers. So my 1st cider that I did this year, I did in a champion juicer, which provides a fairly low solids juice. I did not treat it at all with any sort of um, when I sort of pectinase because it was already low
+
+[32:25] enough. And when you, when you treat a juice early with um, pectinase, you strip a lot of flavor out of the
+
+[32:32] juice. And so that's why a lot of times for cocktails where I need a clear juice for carbonation,
+
+[32:36] like, I have to use extremely high flavored varieties, like in ash meats, because if you're hitting it with a pectinase
+
+[32:43] enzyme and then stripping the solids out, that early, like, you know, it's
+
+[32:47] just, they get too thin. Like a lot of apples can't survive it from a flavor standpoint. Okay. I, this time, I juiced because Mark from Del Posto gave Nastasia an extra
+
+[32:59] juicer. Nastasia is like, this is the size of my freaking kitchen. What the how am I gonna do with this? Dave, you want this juicer. So I got this Brevel juicer, which is a centrifugal basket juicer, radically higher
+
+[33:09] solids content in this juice. So I have no idea, so much though. this is why the variable is too much, that I hit it with a little bit of pectinex because it was just so, it was like a slurry, like, you know, much more higher solids than you would get in a press.
+
+[33:20] And so, unfortunately for you, caller. I treated it with some Pectinace,
+
+[33:27] but I, you know, I'm keeping it fairly cool, so I don't know like how much of a breakdown where it's going to be complete. I mean, only time will tell as journey, wasn't that journey? Journey, I think, right? No. Only time will tell. No, that's... It was one of them. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Anyway, uh, no, I have the lyrics of the song. Oh. Yeah. So the, uh, point being that, uh, you know, maybe if you were to take some juice and hit it with, if you didn't want to use a science perspective, but you were able to do it successfully with
+
+[33:58] pectum methyl estrays. You still there even? What? You were able to successfully do, to do it by, you pre-treated the
+
+[34:07] apples, or you treated that you crushed it, then treated the crush with pectin methylesterase and then, and then pressed it? Yeah. So you're only treating when you're just treating the crush with pectin methylesterase, especially if your transit time is not too high, you're only really affecting like a percentage of
+
+[34:23] the of the juice before of the product. And so you could probably, maybe, you know, if, I mean, if, if you like that method, continue to use that method, the only problem being the
+
+[34:33] pectin methylestrase, nolo shape is increasingly difficult to source. So like modernist pantry is not selling it anymore. Guzman from Nova Zymes will only sell it in 25 liter pails, which is like, you know, 5 orchards worth of freaking enzyme.
+
+[34:47] Uh, and so you might want to, uh, you might want to try just, uh, adding some slurry to it, like some extra, or like using a different juicing technique for some of it, just to boost your solid content on
+
+[34:59] it because I don't think that the pectin methylestrace is doing much besides that. As you mentioned is also, it does strip a little bit of flavor, right? So when you're doing that, you're losing a little bit of solids instead of having them infuse at a slower rate. So it's expediting the whole keating process to a certain extent, which I think you kind of run the risk of maybe losing a little bit of your final flavor
+
+[35:20] product. Yeah, aromatics. Like everything. There is no, there is no effect, one thing, don't affect the rest in any sort of cooking, really. You know what I mean? Like everything that you do. For instance, on this 2nd batch. I, I, you know, I, I cured the apples for a couple weeks and also I froze a portion of them because I needed to because they were, they, I damaged them when I was harvesting them because I don't want to
+
+[35:46] get it. My tree is a standard apple tree. It's the tallest freaking apple tree I've ever had. So I literally had to beat the fruit off of the top of the tree. I don't have a ladder that can get up to the top of this dang tree. And so a lot of the stuff was damaged. I couldn't juice it right away, so I froze it. And then when it thaws, it thaws like a brown bag, which is kind of cool. It kind of tastes good, actually. But, um, anyways, too many variables for me to actually describe to the color, like what's going on because it's now it's partially frozen. The juicer was like making this slurry. Who the hell knows? You know, you can have good results of that sometimes too. If you're juicing frozen fruit. A lot of those ice crystals from the water will stay frozen while the juice and the nectar
+
+[36:23] releases, and you can end up with a higher concentration of flavor and sugar in the end. I've done a bunch of years ago. I did a bunch of side by sides on purposely freezing apples to simulate like
+
+[36:34] like post-thaw, like post-initial freeze harvest of like certain varieties, like, you know, certain late season varieties, and it has some good luck actually developing some interesting flavors with apples that
+
+[36:46] are, that were just simply like artificially frozen and then allowed to thaw before they
+
+[36:52] were, before they were juiced. Yeah. Well, I think I'm going to add, I think I'm going to try adding some like low methoxyl pectin, hopefully, maybe to help, you know, get things going. at, you know, amp up my my pectin amounts. Maybe that'll help, you know, stabilize some of the ones that aren't quite, you
+
+[37:11] know, coming together. Well, let us know. Let us know what happens, like, in however many weeks or whatever it takes. Let us know, let us know what happens, because I'm always curious about these things. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. By the way, speaking of apple trees, I don't know what the heck I'm going to do with this dang
+
+[37:29] tree, all the lower branches are basically, it's weird. They produce fruit. This year was an unbelievable, I think, for a lot of people, like fruit year in our area. Like the tree just went bananas. I don't know whether it's because we had a hard winter or what, but the tree just went totally ape, like made so many freaking apples. No, this was the perfect year. I mean, last year in New York State was a short crop year for a lot of a lot of regions. So, you know, when the apple trees have all that kind of energy. And the pollination season this year was perfect. I mean, we had no rain and warm days when the blossoms around. And, and, you know, honeybees are lazy and uh, prima donnas, and they won't work, you know, if it's below 55, if it's raining and things like that, and some of the other
+
+[38:15] pollinators. So I think it was just, you know, a confluence of all these things, you know, light crop last
+
+[38:21] year for most people. So, you know, you're pretty much guaranteed a big crop and just the pollination was just perfect, the weather. So, I mean, for us we had the biggest crop we've ever had. Late, before we get done, we got to taste your cider. We got a tasty cider. Oh, sure. Let's taste it. Yeah. Let's race to these glasses since that... The hot... this one's a clean guy. Okay. Oh, because host steals the clean glen Stas just rolled her eyes at me. By the way, Nastasia, are we doing are we doing the show from Bass Pro next week? We are. They just got back to me. Bass Pro people is opening up in Bridgeport and we're going to do the show, but it's not going to be Tuesday. It's going to be Wednesday, right? It'll be Wednesday. Oh, it's going to be so awesome. Also, we won't be able to take call in, so it'll be like a catch up show, you know? Yeah, by the way, once... And it'll be all questions on hunting, cooking foods that you hunt. I'll get to the questions I had today. I had some really interesting questions today that I'm clearly not going to get to, like how to blanch, i.e. remove bitterness and chlorophyll, like, you know, of cartoons,
+
+[39:24] post-harvest, which is interesting to me, and I have some thoughts on it, but I don't have time necessarily to get into it
+
+[39:28] today. Let's taste this cider. So describe the cider that we're looking at here. So this is all this is all Columbia County up in Hudson Valley. This is all from 2014 harvest, just 2 varieties. 60% northern spy, 40% Newtown Pippin, both native North American heirlooms. Yeah, Northern. Yeah, you said Northern? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, North American heirlooms. But like, like, don't let the Virginians tell you that, like, we own... Newtown comes from Queens. Yeah, by the way, do you know that that's the most polluted area in all, like was for a while. Newtown Creek was like the most polluted waterway in the country. It's all the actual land where the tree, the 1st Newton Pippin is documented from is now a children's park. So that's a good combination there, a really polluted area and children's playground. But this is, um, this was fermented very slowly. There's this is a combination, actually, of binocular and spontaneous fermentation. This year, everything so far is kicking off spontaneous, just fine. But I've been kind of a migratory gypsy of a hider maker for a while. So, you know, a lot of people talk about all the yeasts come in on the fruit, and there's a whole other element of the environment that you're producing
+
+[40:38] in could be a contributing factor to those kinds of fermentations. So until there was a little bit more of a settled homestead for the sideery, so to speak. I was kind of using a mix of the two. Um, this aged invat, um, from a day for about six, 6 or 7 weeks total. And then Asian vat for another 5.5 months, it's method
+
+[40:59] champagnoise or bottle conditioned and bit and bottleneck for about 5.5 , 6 months. Now, I see what you mean by you like acid, but here's the thing. Like, there's a very characteristic brightness in the finish from that, but it's not like overly acidic. It's not like, it's not like an acid bomb. No. You know what I mean? It balance is always should be the goal, I think. Not just in making cider, but in all aspects of life. Well, let me ask you guys this, but before they, you know, before we run out of time. So I find that like, how many years would you guys say we're into the cider kind of resurgence here in
+
+[41:33] the US 56? Seven? Yeah, I don't even know if it's that, really. I mean, are we here 0 yet? That's really the question. Well, I mean, but it's been a few. Yeah. maybe five. Yeah, I mean, when I say that, I mean, there is, you know, I remember a time when, you know, all you would read in books
+
+[41:51] is we lost it. We were a cider country, and we lost it, and there was nothing. You know what I mean? There was a couple of people producing some stuff, but they were really chasing like a slightly higher price point. They were chasing the same folks that were buying woodchuck. And I think it's bit no offense to the woodchuck corporation. Yeah. But they've done great things for us. Yeah, but I've noticed, like, you know, maybe 8 years, like as you start seeing people who would go out and do the rounds, like you guys are doing, talking to people,
+
+[42:19] like talking about their products, and trying to take serious
+
+[42:23] drinkers and hook serious, when I mean, I don't mean alcoholic. I mean, like people who take their drinks seriously, like hook them into into cider. So that, that, I've only sensed maybe a little over half a decade or something like
+
+[42:38] this. Maybe year zero, ironically, was when Anheuser-Busch and Instell Artois and all them started bottling a cider because it was clearly money to be made, which is kind of laughable from people like John and I
+
+[42:51] think. But what which product did they do? Well, what was the Johnny Apple scene? Yeah, these are 6 pack, 12 ounce bottle cider is marketed in that kind of, you know, convenient start. Yeah, with some amount of concentrate in other sort of flavorings and things like that. I mean, Which is weird. dope them with Malik, which is so strange because why would you need to... Well, if you had very, very high pH weak apples. You might have to like, yeah. So my question is this. I feel like early on in this kind of scenario, early on in this kind of greater appreciation understanding of what, by the way, is like our birthright, good cider, you know, especially here in this part of
+
+[43:33] the country, right? We weren't born with it, but it belongs to us, right? And we should have it. It's like super important. Um, to me anyway. But I feel that like early on, like a lot of people who are trying to do a good job were producing kind of, you know, like, unbalanced ciders,
+
+[43:55] like, like too much, not balanced out, but I feel like we're getting so much better. I feel like every year we're getting better and better. Well, that's an interesting kind of thing because people talk about, This is an interesting point to me. Like when I told some friends of mine from the wine industry that I was going to start making cider, they say, oh, what are you going to do?
+
+[44:09] You gonna make like Spanish style cider or like more like Normandy style cider? And I know that if I said to them, I'm going to move to the finger legs to start making wine. They wouldn't ask me, oh, well, are you going to make like French style wine? Are you going to, you know? But there was this understanding, even people understood that terroir, that they were attaching the idea of cider to these very specific locales is how they aesthetically
+
+[44:28] identified their cider. And I think there's an interesting element going on, especially in New York State. Maybe I know it better because I'm intimately involved with this state because I'm here, but of trying to not necessarily pinpoint an identity of what North American
+
+[44:40] cider or New York state cider is, but having the opportunity to explore these kinds of elements of balance. Because traditionally speaking, you know, a lot of the Normandy and Britney
+
+[44:50] siders are off dry, most of them keep, not all, but, you know, definitely that and use varieties that are a little bit lower in acidity. Then the English style aside are traditionally speaking, is definitely more on the bitter, sweeter, lower acid style of things. In fact, there's even some writing in the British reviewers of quality cider that require a low level of a city to be a good cider. So, you know, I think finding the balance. Yeah, so maybe it's a cultural difference. Maybe it's because we're in a world where we're used to wines that have acidity or getting into worlds of cocktails that have a greater balance of acidities and bitter notes and those kinds of things.
+
+[45:24] So I think it's awesome that we're in a realm where we can explore it a little bit more freely than being beholden to like a
+
+[45:30] longer, deeper history of certain traditions. Right. You know what's interesting on what you're saying with... All right, well, listen, 30 seconds, 30 seconds. So like, I think it's interesting. It takes more than 30 seconds. Like early on in this, you get a lot of things I thought were well crafted products out of places like
+
+[45:46] Virginia where it's low acid inherently because of the hotter kind of climate they have. So it's easier for them to translate what in their head is a cider into a product in a bottle. I mean, we need to talk more about this, but they're about to rip us off the air. But let's take this time. like, gentlemen, punch your products again, say where we can get them, say the names of your of your places, and then unfortunately, we'll have to continue
+
+[46:06] this, like, in the Twitter chat, chat rumor online. But thanks so much for coming and just give the give the give the pitch. Well, no, no. And thanks for having us. Black duck cidery. You know, basically we're pair and cider, and we do lean more to a Spanish style. Um, I believe uh, the late great uh, James Brown did approve our sighters for their funk and um, you can pretty much get them uh, at some select places in uh, uh, Manhattan and Brooklyn, uh, Wassail, of course, the Great Wassail in Orchard Street and the Lower East
+
+[46:38] Side, has it, and I just want to uh, give a shout out to all the cider drinkers on uh, uh, Staten Island because uh, no one ever gives them props.
+
+[46:46] All 2 of them out there. I love you guys. That's half the population. So you got here you go, Fern. what do you got? So suns from cider. Tonight at Wasale is the 1st launch party release of a cider that we're tasting right now, so come on out after 8 PM if you want to buy it by the glass and enjoy it there. The cider is pretty limited right now. It'll be available at West Sale, and then at the new Rouge when it opens, it'll be by the glass there. And Wasail, by the way, is a cider, a cider focused bar in
+
+[47:12] Lower Manhattan in Orchard Orchard, right? Orchard Street. It a mecca. Yeah, I mean, they do a good job. the 1st place and still, I think, the only place in New York City focused solely on site. I could be wrong, but... Well, can I give them props for quick for their chef, the food? Don't overlook it. phenomenal. I've been there several times. I endorse. And the pastries, Rebecca, amazing. All right, listen, that's been cooking issues. Thanks so much. Cheers. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[48:09] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a four-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit culturecity.org. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in
+
+[0:38] Bushwick.
+
+[0:42] every Tuesday from around now. Actually, we're on time today, kind of, huh? I was actually here at noon. What the hell is that all about? I don't know. 1205. over here. Nah, I will show you nah, nah. No, I don't know. Let me see what my phone says. Okay, 1205. Close. Close, close. Joined, as usual, in the studio, by Anastasia the Hammer Lopez, and Jack, Jackie Molecules Insley in the engineering booth. How you guys doing? Good. Hey, Jack, someone got really angry at our microphone here. Oh, I see what's going on. It's like it's like someone like all bent it all to pretzel it up. Oh, really? I think I fixed it. They just knocked off the vibration support. Someone's voice was so intense that it knocked the microphone off of its vibration support. So, Stas, what do we have going on tomorrow? Tomorrow we're going to be at the Bass Pro in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Is it the is it the bass amateur? No. It's the pro. It's a professional style bass. What do we look like over here? They just released the people that are going to be there. Oh, who's going to be there? Uh, the Bassmaster angler of the year. Ooh. Ooh. I'm assuming this is like a freshwater bass, right? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Next, yeah. Yeah. Next. Some guy from Wicked Tuna, his name is Captain Bill Hollywood
+
+[1:59] Munez. Oh, I like that. I like that, which Hollywood? I don't, probably Florida. All right. What do you got there? And then there's Johnny Damon, who was a World Series baseball player from the Boston Red Sox and the Yankees. Wait, okay, nice, nice. Nice, yeah. And then private military contractor Brant McGee, who's seen on the History Channel show alone. Wait a minute. So, like, what does he, like, does that mean? He's going to break our necks? I don't know. And then there's American's favorite fisherman host of Johnny Houston outdoors, Jimmy Houston. Wait, wait, sorry, Jimmy Houston outdoors Jimmy Houston. Yeah, it would be hilarious. It's a guy named Jimmy Houston was the host of a show called Johnny Houston
+
+[2:44] outdoors. That'd be kind of like, that's how things work nowadays. All right. So hopefully they'll come on our show. Yeah, and when if people can come by live if they're in the area, right? o'clock on, yeah. From 6 o'clock on at the Bass Pro shop. We'll be out in the parking lot. For reals? For reals. Well, there's going to be a lot of stuff going on in the parking lot. Okay. So the from the parking lot. Yeah, you're very closest to the thing, they said, because of our power needs. Jackie Molecule is going to come. Yep. Oh, yeah. We're going to actually set up with mics and everything. By the way, we are in no way affiliated with Bass Pro. Like, they're not giving us anything or anything. Not yet. We see how it goes, right? Yeah, I mean, again, not the amateurs. The pros. That'll be in Bridgeport, Connecticut. And coincidentally on the way up, I need to pick up apart from my chainsaw. So this way, it's in Bridgeport. What about from where? I forget the name of it. I forget the name of the I forget the name of the place. Now, they don't sell like real chainsaw parts at home Depot. No fence, Home Depot. But like, you know, like, I was making these benches. I was ripping through a bunch of logs, like hard, like oak, so they're pretty hard. And I didn't buy a rip. Okay, I don't want to hear it. didn't buy a ripping chain. I was using my normal my normal chain on it, right? Pretty sharp chain. And the bar, the bar, nut, like rattled a little bit loose and so it shattered my tensioners. Pah, pah. So I got to go get attentioner for it. So I was like, wow, I don't care. Do you care about this? While, like, while this was going on, I'd already bucked, you know, what bucking is, when you saw logs into smaller
+
+[4:18] pieces so you can use them for firewood and whatnot. So I'd already bucked this tree. And I was loading it into my cart and my tractor died in the middle of the woods, in the middle of the freaking woods. Like, good, in the middle of the freaking woods. Aren't you gonna have a bunch of people try to lift it out? You can't lift this freaking tractor. First of all, like I have to go up like a wicked hill like with covered in leaves. You know what, people? If you can afford a tractor that works, just get a tractor that works. Do you know what I mean? I just can't afford a tractor that works right now. Do I want a tractor that works? You know what I really want? I want like some sort of like either like, you know what a John Deere Gator is? Mm, I think you've said maybe before. They're like, they're like, imagine like a golf cart on roids with like a rollover. Cool. Awesome. I can move wood in that. I don't know. I gotta call her, by the way. Call her. You were on the air. Hey, what's up, guys? This is Ed from Washington, DC. How you doing? Doing good. How are you guys doing? All right. Speaking of tractors at work, My dad has had a kubota for like 15 years and has never had a problem with it. Which kind? you know? Ah, I do not know which kind, but it's just, uh, it's just a beast of a workforce and nothing's ever wrong with it. With a front end loader on it? Yeah. Does it have the backhoe too? Yeah, has backhoe and he can load a, he can attach a drive frame to the rear and put a wood chipper on the back and everything. Oh man, I'm so jealous. That's what I need. But they're like 20 something grand. And they made, and they, you know, and they maintain their resale value like so well. You know what I mean? Like Stas and I were once looking on Craigslist. It was his retirement gift to himself. Oh, that's nice. But I like how someone gives themselves a retirement gift that allows them to work harder. But the, which I appreciate. But Stas and I were looking at these guys. If you go on Craigslist, there's like fake people trying to sell kubodas at unreasonably low prices. So like Nastasia and I, for a while, like one of our minor amusements when we weren't working, was to mess with the scammers about, like, you know, are you familiar with these scams? So what they do is they say they they always say that they're in the military and that they just got reposted somewhere and they won't be able to take their kubota with them, right? And it's, and you're like, and so, but they post it as though it's in
+
+[6:36] your, like, local Craigslist, but then they're like, oh, but it's, it's in Ohio. And they're like, you know, it's already packed and everything. like, and so like Stas and I always like, well, that's such a coincidence. I happen to be going through Ohio. like tomorrow. I come see it? They never write back or like people ask us for the, you know, like, well, let's go on and on, like, we'll give them total, like, straight up, like, wow, it's so amazing. Alaska? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be in Fairbanks like tomorrow. Can I come look at the tractor? You know what I mean? I love doing that kind of stuff. Anyway, so what's your cooking related question? Anyway, so I have an ice cream company here in DC called Milk Colts. We're trying to mess around with some different kind of topping stuff. And I want to do a few kind of, um, sweet powdered vegetable toppings, uh, and trying to do like a sweet Thai basil and a sweet carrot. And I was wondering if there's a way, I can kind of uh produce a lot of this stuff without a dehydrator by, I don't know, like um, um, pulverizing it and then mixing it with um, for the Thai
+
+[7:43] basil like chlorophyll, and maybe like a bulking agent or something like that and what kind of suggestions you might have. Okay, are you milk the Twitter as well? Yeah. Oh, nice. Hi. Um, the, uh, Huh. So wait, you don't want to invest in a dehydrator. What equipment do you have? I mean, I mean, I pretty much everything else. I mean, yeah. I don't have a Roto app or anything like that, but I mean, I got pretty much everything else. Right, so Thai, you know, Thai Basil. I haven't had a lot of experience trying to to dry it down because I always use it like super fresh and I don't think you're going to have, you're not going to. I know you're not going to have any luck, like wet milling it and then trying it because it's just going to,
+
+[8:26] you know, you want them as unblemished as possible as they're drying out. So that they, basically, you're looking to get all the water out before the polyphenol oxidase enzymes can turn them into a swampy morass of crap, right? That the goal. Right. But, you know, you might be able to do the old school just crack the crack the oven and keep it on low, keep the oven open, keep it on
+
+[8:49] low just to get, because really, it's only that initial section of dryness that you need to get past. And then once you're over the hump in terms of dryness, then they can, they'll dry out rather effectively without rotting on you. Um, But let me see if there's anything else. Like, I have never, I hate to admit this because I should try it, but you know, like, uh, that there's
+
+[9:09] the old, I think it was Thomas Keller who 1st started talking about it, even though it doesn't seem like it's his kind of
+
+[9:14] a technique, and it could just be that I'm losing it in my, you know, in my, as I get older, but I think he has a
+
+[9:19] micro. I know there's a microwave dehydration of herbs technique. I don't I've never tried it, so I don't know how it works. But for things like herbs, you might be able to try, you know, the nuclear dehydration there. But I would just throw some in an oven. I mean, do you have a, if you can turn the convection off even better so that it's not, even though the convection helps with drying,
+
+[9:40] like I find that things like herbs tend to blow around a lot, if you don't have a specifically
+
+[9:44] setup. I mean, that's the really nice thing about a dehydrator. The other thing I would do is like call up a buddy with a dehydrator and just like throw a couple sheets in as a test to see whether you like the result before you go too ape
+
+[9:57] crazy, trying to figure out whether, you know, whether you like it or not. I don't think there's a commercial source of dried Thai basil. I can't think, I've never seen it, right? You know, but the other thing to do would be to, you know, I mean, the real baller thing would be to contract someone out to freeze
+
+[10:13] dry that stuff. That would be amazing. But I would try somebody, yeah, that'd be amazing. I mean, but again, that's like even more difficult. So what are the other things you want to try? Besides Thai Bay? Carrot? Carrot and beet? Carrots, go buy them freeze dried. Just buy them freeze dried, pulverize them, right? You know, I don't know how much, like, yeah, you could buy them, buy them freeze dried. Because you're not going to use that much, right? No, no. I don't know if I mean, we're going to, yeah, going through like maybe like court a couple quarts a week or something like that. So not like huge amounts. Right. Um, Beats, I've never seen, I don't think, freeze dried beets. Wait, is that company that does just X, Y, Z? Do they do adjust beats? I have no idea. They have just corn. They have just peas. They have just raspberries and just strawberries. I don't think I don't think they do beets. I'm wondering whether you could just as a test, like just pulverize commercial beet chips and see whether or not they're any good. Yeah, because you can buy... As long as they're unsalted. Yeah, that might work. Yeah, give that a shot. I mean, like as long as you don't own the equipment, you're going to have to just kind of like hassle around and kind of figure out what's going on. Um, with it. But with otherwise, with beats, um, who has worked on that? I mean, people used to make beet soil and beat beat kind of powders all the time. I know Wiley used to do it at WD and a bunch of people have done it, but I think that they're
+
+[11:40] using, I think they're dehydrating it. Now, as far as binders go, like, it all depends on how you want the texture of the product, you know, to be.
+
+[11:50] I mean, you can make it kind of, you know, any texture from a dry
+
+[11:54] powder, and then actually the texture you want is going to depend a lot on kind of how much you need to treat it beforehand to get the moisture out, but it could go anywhere from a dry powder to like a
+
+[12:03] stroozle topping. And screwzel toppings are pretty, you know, they're fairly moist. And, you know, and they just
+
+[12:09] have like, you know, like butter and then other like, I would use pre-cooked starchy starches in them so this not have that extreme starch taste to it, but things like that. You know, but I would just, I would just test out different things. I'm having a, in my mind, trying to figure out what kind of topping you want, whether you want it to be a dust or like a
+
+[12:29] hearty, crumbly thing or what? I think I think some of them will work as a dust, and some of them will work as a crumbly soil or a streusel, and we'll just have to play around with what works which way. Yeah, I haven't done a lot of the soil work. I mean, I used to do a lot of the powdered oil works, but that's not what you're, that's not what you're, what you're doing there. But most most of those soils, I think, were like poor, like make a dough. Make a dough. Here's something you could do. You could make a dough of the flavor you want. This wouldn't work with Thai basil, but you could make a really stiff, for instance, beet, like,
+
+[13:02] and, like, almost like a tuile, but, like, not necessarily sugary, and then just, like, cracked it, or you could make it sugary, and then just pulse it like a praline and get, you know, get the thing out. Like a beet tuile would work, and that would probably be delicious. And within the realm of normal kind of kitchen practice without having to do anything crazy. You know what I mean? Yeah, nothing crazy, not new equipment or anything. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, old school. Just like make it tweel and pulverize it. Great. Well, thanks, guys. All right. well let us know. Tweet us on over and tell us what happens. Okay, bye. I haven't been to DC in a while. I was just in DC. Did you enjoy it? I did. You know, the lines for all of the attractions are longer than they were when I was a kid. Have you talked about this in the year? I think it's lines. I hate lines. Well, but the thing is, I think the lines weren't as long when I was a kid. Let me put it this way. I am just as impatient or I'm the same impatient now as when I was a kid, I'm pretty sure, right? Which is to say impatient. But the, um, I think that like, there's only like, uh, they're not making more constitutions, but we keep on making more Americans. I think that's the thing. You know what I mean? There's just more Americans now than there used to be, and they all want to see the same piece of paper. You know what I mean? Whatever. Hey, I got something in from Aaron, actually. She wants Aaron. Aaron. Aaron. Aaron Fairbanks, executive director. She wants to know if Frylo technology is a real thing, and if you know anything about it. Frylo? Yeah. Well, explain to me what it is, and I'll tell you whether I think it sounds real. Guaranteed oil cost reduction. It's like they say it's a revolutionary technology that in which the oxidation process is reduced and therefore dramatically increases the lifespan of cooking
+
+[14:37] oils. is it? I have to show you the, I have to show you. I've never used it, but I mean, I know there's lots of different technologies out there to keep your fry oil in
+
+[14:47] in good feather. Um, you know, and, you know, the ultimate dream is obviously that your, that the food uptake of oil is the exact same as
+
+[14:57] the uh, oil input rate to maintain optimum frying technology. That's why that's like the continuous potato, the continuous potato chip model is like, um, I mean, I know everyone likes kettle cooked potatoes. But I mean, in terms of like oil or continuous french fry production lines. That's like the, that's the, right? It's like the oil always is perfect and you just keep on making fries until the earth extinguishes itself. You know what I mean? It's kind of like the sun, how the sun will just keep on, like, you know, doing fusion. Yeah, keep on keeping on. Same as this. Just keep on, as long as you keep feeding this, like, French fry sun with, like, fry and oil, it will just be always perfect. isn't that awesome? It's awesome. Anyway. So I don't know about this frylo technology. I'll show you over the break. weird. I mean, is it any, is it any kind to J-Lo? she own it? No. No? No. It's manufactured in Japan. can see that. What do they know about J-Lo? Who knows? Who knows? Who knows what they know about JLo? Styles, you a J-Lo hater? No. Really? I mean, I don't feel nothing. You feel nothing. Alright. Okay, let's get to some questions. Joel Esposito writes in. Is it practical? Practical. Is it practical to pipe a house with CO2 lines? That's carbon dioxide. Like ball locks on retractable hoses. What do you think about the word ball lock? Nah. Nah. Ball lock. Do you prefer ball lock? Another, like, I mean, it sounds better than saying a universal universal beverage or a Pepsi locking
+
+[16:34] system. I mean, ball lock. Pepsi locking system. Yeah? As opposed to the pinlocks, which is what coke used to use. Pinlock. Nobody uses the pinlocks anymore. whatever. Pinlocks. Like bullocks on retractable hoses from the ceiling or just a dedicated station piped out of a countertop with a pressure regulator at the point of use.
+
+[16:53] Also, what's involved in getting a tank of nitrous oxide, N2O for culinary use in a residential setting, Joel Esposito. Okay, lookie here. Uh, here's a problem. Let's go backwards. Here's the problem with nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide is, um, uh, psychoactive,
+
+[17:12] right? So people abuse nitrous oxide in the form of whippets, right? And the, uh, the issue, um, with it especially is, is that people will uh, inhale it directly from the tank. And if you inhale it directly from the tank, you can pass out with the mask on your
+
+[17:31] face and asphyxiate yourself and die, right? So, you know, if you piped enough oxygen into it, you probably wouldn't die, but nobody hooks up a system of oxygen and
+
+[17:41] 2 O, and even that would be dangerous because what if the oxygen failed and you're by yourself and you're huffing
+
+[17:45] nitrous? So it's classically dangerous thing to have lying around the house if there's anyone in the house who has a predisposition to, like, huffing the stuff, right? So I'm just going to go ahead and say that right there. Another problem, nitrous is typically used in consumer applications for injection into automobile engines to
+
+[18:06] provide extra power, like nitro boost. Those have some sort of like poisonous stinkophant added to it so that you can't huff it. Now. You can get medical grade nitrous. Like I used to have it. I gave the nitrous cylinder back, but I used to have it. I think we gave it back, right? The big tank, we gave it back when we closed the lab. Yeah. I used to have it around. The trick is just convincing somebody once that you are a reputable person and that you needed it. So I convinced the guy to give it to me once because I worked at the French culinary
+
+[18:43] institute, and I said to him, you know, I called a couple different places, and they were like, well, you need a doctor's license. I'm like, I don't, because I'm not going to prescribe it. I think I've gone through this on the air. And they're like, you know, and you know, but after about like 20 minutes of them, of me just saying, no, I don't need it, right? Then they, I said, what, I said, I said, okay, it's, I said, it's not a legal requirement for me to be a doctor to get
+
+[19:06] the nitrous. I said, so what is it that would make it okay for you to feel good giving me the nitrous? And then you tell them a story, which was is true, be like, look it, I spend 1000s of dollars a year
+
+[19:21] on nitrous oxide cartridges for whipped cream makers, and I'd prefer to spend, you know, a 100 bucks on one nitrous oxide tank that'll last me 2
+
+[19:33] years, then a $1000 on cartridges. And so the guy said, so a bunch of people said, well, I will never feel comfortable showing it to you. So go hang yourself. I was like, okay. But then this one guy said, um, get the New York City fire department to say it's okay. I said, I didn't say that's crazy. I said, okay. So I called it the fire department. I said, hey, fire department. Do you have any regulations about nitrous oxide? And they said, no, we have no regulations about nitrous oxide. I was like, so you have no problem with me having a nitrous oxide tank based on fire department rules
+
+[20:10] in my place. And keep in mind, like I had a certificate of fitness for compressed gases, both for oxygen and acetylene and industrial environments. Actually, that's the only certificate of fitness I had at the time. But, you know, I was like, you know, I've been to your center. I have your bubble blah. And I said to the guy, here's the magic phrase. I was like, well, will you sign a letter saying that the fire department has no problem with this? And for some reason, the guy said yes. And so then I faxed the letter over to the guy at the welding supply and he said, uh, he said, all right, the fire department doesn't have a problem with
+
+[20:44] it. then I guess it's okay. And, you know, even though there are literally no rules about it, right? Um, so anyways, it's all about convincing, 1st of all, you have to be the kind of person that is accurately not, I mean, that is not going
+
+[20:58] to like cause problems with it. And secondly, you need to convince someone that it is
+
+[21:04] a, that they can feel comfortable in selling to you. And that's about it. So, like, you know, if you have a, you know, like, if you have some excuse, like, um, you know, I'm going into a business where I'm spending all this money on nitrous, and it's ridiculous, because there's no limit on how many nitrous cartridges you can buy, and, like, you know, you could fill, like, uh, uh, you know, a 15 foot weather balloon with uh, nitrous cartridges from uh, whipped cream makers, if if you so desired, and then start inhaling that
+
+[21:34] until you until you kill over dead. But, you know, it's like, and there's no law against it. And there is no whatever. Don't get me started. Now, as for piping your, so I was like, thank God. as for piping our house with CO2, it is entirely feasible to
+
+[21:47] pipe your house with CO2, bars are piped with CO2 all the time. They're usually piped to the bar guns and to the carbonators, uh, or to their kegging systems and not to individual point of carbonation rigs, but they do it all the time.
+
+[22:01] They use a very tough kind of polyethylene. It's a braided reinforced, like double polyethylene hose, and they use, um,
+
+[22:13] Odicre clamps that, you know, not those little crappy ones that really tighten down with a clamp thing.
+
+[22:20] like ear clamps that are very good and they use, you know, nickel
+
+[22:25] plated, brass or stainless, like, flare fittings and all those things, like they don't fail,
+
+[22:32] right? But the danger in it because remember, you're not running high pressure CO2. You're taking it down to the pressure you're going to use it at, which is, you know, in all
+
+[22:41] cases under a 100 PSI or thereabout, even if you're running a full, uh, like a carpet, like a McCann full-size carbonator, uh, and you're carbonating at room temperature and then piping it through a cold plate, you're still looking at no more than like 105, probably PSI or some
+
+[22:56] 110 maybe PSI through it. So it's not like super high pressure, like 800 PSI that you need to worry about. Um, but you definitely want to get to use only uh, things that are not going to have catastrophic failures. The danger with CO2, like any other thing, is that it is an asphyxian, right? So if you have, luckily, you can sense it. It's not like nitrogen where you're not going to sense that you're being asphyxiated, but it is an asphyxiant. So, um, you don't want to be in a situation where if you have a catastrophic leak that all of a sudden, you know, you, you know, die. So, uh, that's that's the main, that's the main kind of a thing. But I've actually never heard of a case of it happening. Because you get panicked in excess CO2. But, I mean, I've never heard of it happening. I mean, maybe it has, but I've never heard of it happening in a beverage situation. Just get the good hose. Don't get the crappy, unreinforced BSOs. Uh, okay. Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. 2 questions. This is from, uh, now he wants me to try to pronounce his name in Norwegian accent, but I can't do that.
+
+[24:06] Only nils can do that. And so Nils has given me like Nils pronounces. By the way, thank goodness Nathan Mirvold never listens to the show, except for the time he was on it, right? But he always has, Mirvold, Mirvold, right? That's like Nils Swedish Nils's imitation of a Norwegian accent. So now I have to say this name in my imitation of nils doing a Norwegian, how do we do it?
+
+[24:31] Jurgen, right? Jurgen Dalan cellforce. Cell force, right? That's how those would do it. I don't know how it'd say Thaland? Self force? Anyway. Anyway, okay, here are the questions. Are you involved with XKCD's survey? Jack. I know Stas doesn't give a rat's test. I think he's in the bathroom. Oh, he's in the bathroom. He's using the facilities. Do you not even know what that is? That's that cartoon that, like, text, science-related cartoon. People go crazy for it. It's like on the Wikipedia, it has its own like explanations page that's not related to the actual comic. It's like these like stick figures. Jack, you familiar, you familiar with the cartoon, X-K-C-D? No, sir. Oh, wait, I think I've, yes, I've seen. Yeah you've seen anything. X KCD. Is that what you said? X-KCD. And it doesn't mean anything? Like, you can't say it. I don't know. How are you gonna say it? don't know. I'm sure there's a or what does it stand for? I don't know. Well, you look it up. But anyway, so are you involved with their survey, because they did a huge survey where they're trying to collect a bunch of random data to see whether or not you can make either interesting or interesting yet spurious correlations on large data sets, like people who don't like potato
+
+[25:42] chips might also be more likely to kick puppies. I just said that I don't really, that those aren't 2 questions. But anyway, there is on it, a sandwich question that reminds me of an episode which sought to define a sandwich by listening what is and what is not a
+
+[25:55] sandwich. Because in the survey, there's a list of things, are they a
+
+[25:59] sandwich or are they not? And I'm not going to get back into it because I'm just going to get all worked up about it. And it's all about, anyway, I'm not going to get into it. No, we're not involved. And then for Jack, is there any way for us not listening live and with no Twitter account to see the chat activity referenced in the show? Yeah, I thought I answered this. I'm pretty sure you can get in that chat room and scroll up and it should show you the history. That's what I've done in the past, if I'm like not in. I can scroll up and see what happened. So just get in there and scroll up. Me know if that works. No Twitter required. No, nothing. Nope. Okay. Hi, Nastasia, Dave, Jack, and the chat verse. Ooh, I like that. chat verse. chat verse. Now this is about apple cider. We didn't talk about the apple cider question last week, right? Strangely, even though it was an entire Apple Sex cider show. I don't think we talked about the cider, did we? I don't think we did. Do you want to wait on the cider till the end so that people don't get cited out? Or do you want me to go through it? Wait. Oh, stars, you're so mean. All right, listen. I am going to, I'm going to, I will get to it. I will get to it. Especially because it asks about the about the centerfuge. We should talk about that. When are we going to talk about that on the break? Sure. When we come back from the break? Okay. All right, let me hit this real quick. From Chris, I'm writing in to ask about Greek frappe coffee. What do you think about, there's a guy, these guys in, uh, in,
+
+[27:28] uh, you ever eat out near Harvard, like at like the local kind of joints, not the places that Harold McGee takes
+
+[27:35] us? Yeah, sometimes. So there's this like place that Harvard people used to go. I went there when I was in college, right? to his place and I'll never forget it. My friend Mike went into it, right? And he goes, uh, because we're, you know, Connecticut people. You know what I mean? And he goes, I want a milkshake. I want a milkshake. And the guy behind the counter says, you don't want a milkshake. He doesn't have that accent because he's from Boston, but I'm not going to do a Boston accent. He goes, you don't want a milkshake. Mike goes, what the hell do you mean that? I don't want a milkshake. He's like, a milkshake is when we just take milk and shake it. He's like, what you want is a frap. Not like a frappe. What you want is a frap. And like was like, what the hell is this? You don't get to choose. It's just not like the caterpillar in freaking Alice in Wonderland where you get to choose. No one on God's green freaking earth thinks that a milkshake is when you take milk and you shake it. That's some sort of like Harvard, like yard abomination diner nonsense crap. Jack, you ever heard of that? No, that's ridiculous. That's crazy. That's crazy. Anyway, frap. I'm here to ask about Greek frappade coffee. I discovered, by the way, I'm not even getting into it, but, you know, it means something entirely different in the cocktail world. Okay, whatever. He don't care. It has nothing to do with what anyone thinks it means. Anyway, I discovered this drink in Athens a few years ago, and here is the drink. One teaspoon of Nes Cafe. And what we're talking about here is the instant coffee, a.k.a. taster's choice, which is in fact no... I bet you Stas, but you like that stuff. No, I don't. Wait, but you like the stale, crappy coffee that you get out of those quilted trucks on the side of the street? You know what's coming out soon is the incest Fulgers commercial. What? The what? You know it, Jack. Where the guy comes home from Africa and his sister's at the door and she's like, you know what I'm
+
+[29:31] talking about? Terrible. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do mean it's coming out soon? Every freaking year since 1990 something. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? Jack, explain it. I'm not going to Guy comes back from Africa. He's a volunteer. He's a volunteer. What, is this a Peter Kim? Peace Corps? Peace Corps, something like that. Sister opens the door. Did you make this up? He's literally coming home from Africa. You know, I can actually hold on. No, let me explain. I must have the wrong house. Sister. Oh, I missed you so much. It's really weird. I waited up all night, you know. It's long way from West Africa. Oh, real coffee. Real coffee. soldiers. And he just came back. Oh, man. You have to see it. all kinds of wrong. No, they're eye contact. Yeah, yeah. The body language is no good. this one. And she just woke up. And then he gives her a gift and she's looking at them all intensely and she puts a bow on him. just narrating now. It's bad. What's kind of funny is that in West Africa, they, like, at least, you know,
+
+[30:38] like in Senegal, at least, there's like this culture of this powdered coffee that is sold all over the streets.
+
+[30:44] And is it good? Is it better than Folgers? It's totally different. And it's more, because it's like tossed back and forth and it's got spices in it. So it's got the spice jer in it. And, uh, yeah, tuba, cafe tuba, and it's like goes back and forth, but it's a little sweep. You can get them to not put the, it's a lot sweet, but you can get them to not put the sugar into it if you ask for it.
+
+[31:06] So like you can get plenty of freaking coffee in West Africa.
+
+[31:10] Yeah. But you can't have coffee and incest at the same time, I don't think. Got a comment in the chat room from Tim. The best part of waking up is incest in your cup. Oh, wow. I can hear that. How about we take a break? Wait, and we'll answer the question afterwards? All right, all right. All right. come back and talk about Greek frat baked coffee. the center of the face.
+
+[31:47] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a four purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism
+
+[31:59] families. This is Culture City's founder, Julian Maha. Coach City was really born out of necessity. You know, it was born when my, you know, currently six-year-old boy was diagnosed with autism. His name is Abram and he's non-verbal. And even though my wife and I were both physicians at the time, it was really hard for us to find any resources at that point to help him, all the other organizations out there that we know of,
+
+[32:24] they do phenomenal work, but their main focus is basically finding a cure for autism. Our main focus is basically trying to prepare the community to accept not only children of
+
+[32:34] artisan but their families as well. You know, in addition to that, we also want to provide help to these families in the here and now. You know, so tangible things like, you know, iPads, for non-mobile kids, you know, financial scholarships,
+
+[32:47] uh, therapy, scholarships, you know, art camps, and also some um, lecture series that can teach parents about, you know, dietary issues, um, you
+
+[32:57] know, how to financially plan and things like that. For more information, visit culture city.org. Nice. So, uh, you know, obviously, like, uh, that's an important, important topic for me and my family, obviously, but uh, how long have they been uh, been with us, Jack? Oh, we've we've been connected to them for a while now. They're so, so awesome. I went down to Birmingham twice and hung out with that whole team and once at the gala with Aaron with
+
+[33:24] heritage and then they had me come down and DJ the 2nd gala they did, the just unbelievable stuff that they do. Like really, really, really great. Yeah, because, you know, so many people are trying to, like, all these autism organizations usually, like, were fighting for a cure. And these guys are like, no, that's not what we're doing. We're just educating people, you know, what it actually means to have autistic kids. Right. And also, you know, there's a, yeah, like, yeah,
+
+[33:50] like, look, I'm of many, like, as a parent, many, many minds about this, which I, you know, not, I mean, we're a cooking show, not to
+
+[33:57] blaze necessarily to go into it, but yeah, I mean, trying anything to kind of remove stigmatics and
+
+[34:03] increase acceptance and understanding is good in my book, right? Yeah, totally. Okay, back to the Greek frapade coffee. I discovered this drink in Athens a few years ago. One teaspoon of Nest Cafe, incest free, by the way. I'm going to specify incest free. That's a new label that they're gonna introduce. Yeah, fair trade? Nah, no, no. incest free. Like, the trade is still not fair, but it didn't involve incest, right? Dang. Dang. You know what I mean? Oh, now I have the best part of waking up goods in my head. Incest in your cut. You really never seen it, dude? No, no. I must have missed that whole like era. Yeah, like every year, it comes every year. The shows that I watch don't advertise coffee. They advertise catheters. The catheter store. What kind of Kathy do you need? You need like a self-lubricating catheter? You need a cathy you could take in your truck? You need a cat, like, there's like, like, constant, like, CNN must have the most heavily cathetered audience. I think, like in the world. It's just all catheters all the time, all times of day, all times of night, catheters. No? And like, uh, and reverse mortgage, reverse mortgages. He just died. Fred Thompson? Yeah. Yeah, catheters. Yeah. And Humera ads. Humera. don't even know what it's for. You know what he miras for? Jack, you have any idea what he marrys for? do not. Did you see that Charlie Sheen came out? Oh, yeah. Yikes. What do you mean, he came out? He has HIV. Oh man. Yeah. Big long interview on today's show. That's terrible. Huh. Well, that again, uh, let's take it back to Greek frat paid coffee. shall we? Man. Man, just killing the vibe. Um, okay. So where were we? One teaspoon Nest Cafe. And by the way, it says teaspoon, but I did some research. I have to be honest, I've never had instant coffee in my life. You ever had sauce? Yeah. Actually, like, if you read the coffee literature. I forget the name of it, but the AVI press, which was published out of Connecticut in the
+
+[36:19] 70s, was like the series of highly technical, you know, books on, um, on food technology. They had one on coffee in which they described instant coffee as like one of the greatest technological achievements of all time. Just happens to taste bad. Anyway, my assumption is it tastes bad. It's not that bad, especially if you're like mainly like milk and sugar, you can't really taste. Really? All right. Okay. So, uh, but anyway, all the recipes online, uh, don't just say a teaspoon, my friend, it is a heaping teaspoon, a heaping teaspoon of Nest
+
+[36:53] Cafe. Two teaspoons of sugar, a quarter cup of cold water, and then clip, clip, clip, to magical microbubble foam with the immersion blender or similar, pour over ice, add a splash of milk. This, without the milk, forms a pretty stable microbubble foam with intensified flavors and a creamy, viscous mouthfield. You like the words creamy and viscous, creamy and viscous mouth feel. Uh, which one do you dislike both or in combination? Miscus? What about the word meniscus? I don't like it. Okay. The thing I don't like about it is that it uses instant coffee, which I don't love the taste
+
+[37:32] of as much as fresh coffee. I'd appreciate your vice and making an espresso slash fresh brewed coffee version. I would also expect a cold brew coffee version would be spectacular if the hot brew version worked out. I don't know about that because, okay, I've tried stick blending, soy less of then, and various concentrations into rapid chilled fresh
+
+[37:55] coffee and did not get a stable foam or the same microbubbles with, as with the Nes Cafe version. I've also tried various concentrations of Xanthan gum, and it goes from unstable foam to coffee snot before stabilizing in the
+
+[38:08] way, as with instant coffee wood. Coffee snot sounds really bad. Like, it sounds like you have a sickness and you've like snarfed it through your nose and then blew it out, which is unpleasant. Unpleasant. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. I suspect I might need some kind of solid slash bulking agent, but I'm at a loss for what those might be. I have an extra constraint that I avoid soy proteins. So versa whip is not an option. They make a non-soy versa whip, by the way. you just have to make sure you know which one is which. Wait, wait, wait. Oh, you avoid soy proteins, but not soy less thin. All right. I also find that the splash of milk, even skim, seems to accelerate the breaking of the foam causing the small bubbles to quickly join together and float to the top of the drink. It would be great to prevent this if possible. Any thoughts, advice, much appreciated. Thanks, Chris. Okay. Okay, okay, so what the instant coffee does for you, obviously,
+
+[39:00] is soluble in cold water, right? So you can already use cold water to make it, right? That's the advantage. I did the calculations, right? So, uh, what you're looking at with that Nest Cafe. Oh man, I did the calculations last week, because I thought I was going to do it last week, and I don't remember them. I don't remember them. But you're, it's a soluble solids, uh, thing. And so you're supposed to put that amount of coffee, a heaping teaspoon of
+
+[39:28] instant coffee into 6 ounces of liquid. And instead, you're putting it into 2 ounces of liquid. So you're roughly 3 times the solids content as you would get in a normal cup of coffee. That plus it's cold, right? So, espresso, like a really like high extraction espresso is going to have a higher solids content than you would get
+
+[39:52] in in this by yourself. So if you make a very concentrated espresso and have it go right over an ice cube, you might level out at just about the solids content that you need, um, you know, as long as you
+
+[40:07] didn't like, uh, as long as you didn't, and I'd have to redo some calculations on how cold the actual espresso would
+
+[40:12] get. But this is how I make, I make shaken espresso like that all the time, even without an immersion blender and you get a very nice bubble.
+
+[40:20] Now, if you don't have the, in other words, if it's too watered down at that point, then I would just have the espresso, let it cool off for a while, then put it
+
+[40:31] on, you know, whip it the hell up and pour it, pour it over ice and it should work because think about this. Pick up on this. You're using 2 ounces of water and a teaspoon of sugar in your thing, which is very high solids, right? Not just the high size from the coffee, but you have extra sugar in there. So you are dealing, you're whipping something that's only a quarter cup, 2 ounces. So if you just do like a highly extracted espresso and add enough ice water to take it up to 2 ounces with sugar, you should be in roughly the same
+
+[41:02] ballpark and it should work. What do you think, Stas? Yeah. As for the milk stabilizing it, yeah, I wouldn't use Xanthan because it's going to snot up. I'd use something a little more less snotty. Perhaps xanthan mixed with, um, hmm. I have to think on it a little bit, but give that a shot. Let me know how it works. And if you desperately need to add milk, you could just thicken up the milk with something, nah,
+
+[41:28] but not Xanthan. I got to think on it. I got to think on it. But anyway, let me know how that works. Okay. I enjoy. Oh, wait, we already did this. We did this. We not going to do the cider right now. We're not going to do the side right now because Nastasi doesn't want to hear anything about cider. No. She doesn't want to hear anything about cider. Okay. Cider it out. Although, I would like to discuss, although you know what? Nastasi and I may, on Thursday, spin another batch of cider in the centrifuge. Should we talk centrifuge now real quick? Yeah. So I might spin another batch of cider in a centrifuge, in which case I can come and talk to you about the results from that 2nd spin because I have another I have my 2nd and last batch of cider for the year that is about to be done with primary
+
+[42:06] fermentation. Um, So, update on the, I
+
+[42:11] think right for right now, we're calling it the Booker and Dax 500, right? is what we're calling or something like that. centrifuge. Updates on the centrifuge. So, I got some good news and I got some bad news. The good news is that when you get it, you're going to love it. That's the good news. The bad news is, is that it does not look like we will be able to put it on sale on Black Friday.
+
+[42:32] Uh, on pre-sale on Black Friday. Now the plan, I think we discussed a plan, right? The plan was to put it on pre-sale on Black Friday, and we're going to give you like a hefty discount over what the eventual retail price will be. And also we're going to let you like put your place in line, right? Because, you know, we're not going to probably make enough, you know, whatever. So, but, It just so happens that all that all of the motor suppliers to all of the people right
+
+[43:02] now just went on strike. And so the prototype, which is fundamentally done and is going to be shipped over here, like the last one before we pay for the hard tooling, the one that we need to do all the videos
+
+[43:14] to like put up on Black Friday. The factories on strike. And so we won't get it until until probably December 1st. So we plan on still putting it on sale before the holidays. So I would reserve some of that, some of that, you know, buying ability. Uh, and we still plan on having you be able to send Christmas cards out to your buddies.
+
+[43:36] And if you were a Kickstarter, um, backer, we will be sending you, you know,
+
+[43:41] your, uh, your notice with an extra $20 off, but it will unfortunately will not be the day after Thanksgiving. I think Nastasia has secretly set up this strike because she
+
+[43:53] has sick for the past 3 years. She is sick and tired of always having some sort of Black Friday nonsense to deal with, right? Yeah. Yeah, right, didn't set it up. So we can actually pretend that we're just not going to be part of Black Friday. not going to be part of it. not going to believe in that commercialism. That's not true, though. That would be a lie. There's a strike in the factory. But the good news is, is that if there's a strike, uh, maybe uh, we haven't even slightly less uh, slightly more exploitation free motor. Anything about that? Yeah, that's a good thing. It's a good thing. Christmas miracle. Christmas miracle. So more updates on that. Do we ever talk about what the centrifuge can do or we're going to wait until we get closer? I will say this. Here's what I will say. It will have a one shot capacity of 500 mils at a time. It will not require balancing. It, I have written recipes to have it clarify all the standard stuff that I do at the
+
+[44:48] bar, and I've also done like a lot of the modernist cuisine, like the peea butter and all that. It works for the peea butter. It works for herb oils. It works for all of that, works for all the custinos. It works for lime juice. It works for all that. Here's what's cool about it. Aside from the fact that it's going to cost less than a 1000 bucks, and it's going to be, you know, a little bit bigger than a Cuisinart. Uh, not very much bigger than a cuisine art. So countertop friendly and cabinet friendly. Aside from that, and the fact that I already mentioned you won't have to balance it. It not going to require balancing. Okay. We're going to be able you're going to be able to run it in batch mode, which means that you're going to be able to like put like a container with like a couple of gallons of orange juice and then just run it without stopping and have it
+
+[45:35] go. Now, the product won't be, got to be honest, won't be as clear as it will be in like
+
+[45:41] single time batch mode, but it'll allow you to get very large throughput of items like that.
+
+[45:45] So more discussion about, you know, how it works and what it's doing as we get closer, but just
+
+[45:50] got to give you guys the updates, right? Okay. This is from Kirk in Atlanta, Georgia. Got a quick question. I made some clear ice by wrapping a bread pan with insulation tape, a bootleg version of the cooler method, carved it all up, and threw it in my freezer. A few weeks later, I see that all the ice cubes have lost a significant amount of their mass. I moved into a new house and the fridge slash freezer isn't new. Is there anything I can do to prevent this loss or am I just stuck with having to make ice weekly to keep pace with my cocktail consumption? Okay, 1st of all, is it a frost-free freezer or is it not a frost-free freezer? Because I would think that in a frost-free freezer,
+
+[46:29] you're going to have a lot more weight loss over time. But secondly, I would wrap your ice cubes in, or put them, put the slabs after you cut them, whatever, put them in
+
+[46:41] Ziploc bags, and you will not get any, you will not get nearly as much lost, because you're going to maintain the, I'm making quote marks. The humidity on the inside of the bag. You're not going to get as much sublimation off of your ice cubes as you would otherwise. There's 2 reasons it could be shrinking, right? One is sublimation due to dry air inside of the thing, which I think would tend to be enhanced by frost freezer. And secondly, could be literal uh, freestaw mass loss if you're going through hardcore, freeze thaws. Like if you're actually getting drip off off the ice cubes. Either way, you will know if you put the ice cubes into get, you can buy 2 gallon ziploc bags, right? So you don't have to worry about it. Go throw them in 2 gallon zippies. They make freezer ones, but I don't know if they make 2 gallon freezers. They might only make one gallon freezers, but try zippies, and let me know what happens. Okay, high team. I'm trying to make cultured maple butter, and it's working okay, but not great. Can you help? Making the butter is fine. I culture cream into creme fraiche, then whip whip the cream and standing mixer until the solids just separate. I strain out the buttermilk, squeeze the solids together and rinse them in cold water to get rid of the rest of the buttermilk. The problem I'm having is getting the maple syrup into the butter. Even though some of the one quarter cup of syrup per pound of butter I use gets mixed into the butter. Not all of it does, and then the butter sort of weeps. You hate that word, right? He weeps. Even though there's no age. Weeps, maple syrup drops. The flavor is fine, but Nasrobust is, I would like, and the weeping is a little weird looking. The only recipes I found for maple butter. Have you mix the syrup to the butter once the butter has been made, as I tried to do, or a straight maple syrup spread, maple syrup that has been heated and
+
+[48:17] whipped. Um, what's the best way to get great maple flavor into dairy butter? How would you do it? I don't have any modernist cooking types of appliances, but I do have a great thermometer, a vitamix, and a stove. Thanks for your show, and hope to hear your thoughts. Kelly. Okay, Kelly, here's what I think. The problem is this. Okay, when you're, let's say you were to need the hell out of the butter after you make it, you have to
+
+[48:38] get like, let's say you were to get all the way out, right? Which I don't, actually. I like to leaves more more of the buttermilk in than you would get commercially because I think it adds to the kind of flavor of the fresh
+
+[48:49] butter, right? So I don't try to get it. And a commercial butter, right? Can range in its solids content, but typically when you buy the more expensive butters. They have a very high solids content to them. i.e. not as much water. Um, and what you're looking to do is replace the water in at least a portion of the water in the butter with maple syrup, which should work, but the thing is, is that you're going to have to get it in
+
+[49:18] there and you're always going to have some weeping unless you do this. I think what you should do is make yourself a very thickened maple syrup. Now, you can either make an agar kind of fluid gel, very fine, you know,
+
+[49:34] agar fluid gel. fact maybe that's what I would do. But it still wouldn't be 100% maple, because you'd need to do the agar and you can't do agar and a straight maple syrup. You'd have to do agar into a little bit of water and then temper the maple syrup in. But you could probably get, I don't know what the maximum bricks you could get is, but you could probably get it pretty high. You could try any other sort of thickener on the maple syrup, but I would thicken the hell Xanthan, for instance. Like if you made like a real snotty Xanthan in water, you could dope it back into the maple syrup. I don't know whether you can get Xanthan directly hydrated into maple syrup or not. But anyway, the goal here is to make the maple syrup stand on its
+
+[50:13] own, and then you're basically folding a solid into the butter. And then it shouldn't weep out. It might look weird as it's spread, though. The other alternative would be to, um,
+
+[50:26] the other alternative would be to, and I don't know if this is going to work, but you
+
+[50:31] could make the butter, then, uh, break it. Could you re-emulsify that? Can you make it again? I don't think you could make it again. I was going to say, like, you want to replace the water in the milk with the water in the cream with maple syrup to some
+
+[50:46] extent and make it with the maple syrup in it, right? I wonder whether that would work, but the issue is, is that I think you need to add quite a lot. I don't know how, like, I think you'd be diluting it. So if you figure that heavy cream is roughly 30% or 30 and change percent fat, right? Then it's like 60 and change percent water. So even if you were to add, um, even if you were to add, uh, let's say 600 mils
+
+[51:12] of, um, 600 mils of maple syrup to a quart uh, to a liter of heavy cream, you'd still only half of
+
+[51:22] the, of the non-fat stuff in that mixture would be maple syrup, right?
+
+[51:27] I think that's your problem. But, um, I don't know. I like to try some stuff and give it a shot. Are we getting kicked off? Do I have time to do one more? Because I miss this blanching celery. Quick? All right. All right. So I'm not getting to the Robuchon fries. Maybe we can talk about that tomorrow because we're going to be at the what's it called tomorrow, right? But I do want to get to this because I mentioned it last week. Dave, Nastasia, and Jack. Um, oh, this one's Justin Jack. doesn't care what we think from Alan. Please ask Dave how he would blanch Cardoon in the kitchen if it didn't get blanched in the
+
+[52:05] garden. So cartoons... Hey Dave, how would you blanch Cardoon in the kitchen? Okay. very interesting question. So blanching, by blanching, what we mean here is not like, you know, putting in boiling water, uh, what's going on. That's not the kind of blanching we're talking about. What we're talking about here is the procedure of not allowing light to get to, so this is done with, for instance,
+
+[52:30] celery, although they have celery that's, you know, that is self-blanching now. But cardoons and also, I guess, you know, Andiv and things like that,
+
+[52:41] right? That, Ondi, that you like that with Ondi? Anyway, of getting rid of the chlorophyll, but not just the chlorophyll, some of the bitterness. And so what you're supposed to do is several weeks before harvest. You're supposed to wrap, like, either mound up earth or wrap, uh, the thing so that the sun doesn't get to them, but they're still respiring, right? And this blanches them out. Now, the question is, if they haven't done this for you, how the heck are you going to do it? And I've never tried it. In fact, I don't really get to cook much cartoon because not a lot of not a lot of cartoon here in the US, right? Stas, do you ever like? No way. No. No. No. No, no. Yeah. We're like, no, no. But you would like it because you love artichokes. I had it once, yeah. But you would love it. Because you like artichokes. I like artichokes, but you don't like artichokes. You love artichokes. Well, you could put butter on a cartoon, you freak show. anyway. Uh, so, um, he cut trophy. You know, it's like one of the good Italian words, right? It sounds like a curse word. Yeah, yeah, please, please, don't get me started on that one. So, I looked it up, right? So the question is, can like, okay, can you just put it in a basement, for instance, and get it to work? Well, so, uh, I didn't find any information on cartoons, but I did look up uh, celery. Now, celery is responsive to ethylene gas. Right? But, uh, you know, and you can just look up uh, celery and blanching and ethylene, and you can find this. And in fact, there's a paper on celery from the 20s. From like 1927, you can get, it's the, um, I think it's called, I can't read my writing, but action of ethylene,
+
+[54:19] gas, accelerated blanching on celery from like the 20s, and you can look at it. Now, this paper doesn't have temperature control in it to the extent that some of the modern studies do, but celery, you're supposed to keep celery away from ethylene producing
+
+[54:32] fruits, like of bananas, because they can get what's called damaged. i.e. they go through it through accelerated respiration. If the if the getholene level is too high according to the 27 paper, you don't. But the other key is that it needs to be maintained above refrigerator temperatures for this to happen.
+
+[54:49] So what I would do is put it in a light, free place or wrap it, but not too closely because they, uh, they, they increase respiration in, at least in celery, so maybe also in
+
+[54:59] cartoon, uh, is uh, enhanced by the removal of CO2. So you don't want to put it in something that traps the CO2 in it. And then just put like, or keep it in like, you know, like wrap like paper so that things can leave, but it's like bananas and
+
+[55:12] cardoon. This is a test. This is just a theory. I have no idea this would work and keep it in a lightproof place for a week or 2 and see what happens. Now, I don't know whether you can keep the car doing alive more by putting it in water so that it doesn't crap out like you do with herbs, but the problem there is I don't know whether or not there's a way to prevent bacteria from growing in that water to keep it from going too
+
+[55:29] swampy. But this is just a test. So let me know what happens. Let me know whether you have any suggests blanching the cartoons, and we'll talk to you tomorrow from Bass Pro shops, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Step inside and let the excitement take you places. This is Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the ultimate spot for action that reaches incredible heights, luxury that knows no bounds, and live entertainment that always thrills.
+
+[0:15] It's all at one incredible destination. So when you look for the best, look nowhere else, Muckleshoot Casino Resort, the biggest and best in the Northwest. Must be 21 and over. Please gamble responsible. So we're live, Jack. We're live on cooking issues. First of all, I like this. I like standing next to you guys or you're doing it instead of like just having you in the other room. What do you think, Star? Yeah, like it. All right, so, Stas, you have to call? Yes. We have some questions that were tweeted in about, like, you know, things in the bass pro shop. Give me a proper intro, though. All right. So, like, Ben, I forget what I normally say. What do I normally say? can't even remember. Really? Hello, this is Dave. I'm so used to like... I got it. I got it. I got it.
+
+[1:10] Hello and welcome to Cookie Shoes. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you live from the best pro shop in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Joined, as usual, in the parking lot with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Scott? How you been doing today? Good. Do anything? What do you do? What do you do? Any fun? What do you do Yes, we made pork chops and standing next to me, which I appreciate for the 1st time ever, in the engineering section of the parking lot. That's right. We got Jack Insley, Jackie molecules. How you doing? great. Nice. All right. So Nastasia and I, Jack didn't get to go in yet, but Nastasia and I just got a sneak peek of the Bass Pro shop before they
+
+[1:47] open. So it's like a rare time to see the bass pro shots, but it's completely empty. Now, they didn't really want us like milling about on the inside. So we only really saw the kind of cooking area of the section. But to give you an idea of what a bass pro shop is. For those of you who don't know about a bass pro, which by the way, we're not affiliated with a bass pro shop in any way, shape, form, nope, in any way. So it's like kind of like uh, it's kind of like Disneyland mixed with uh, with an outdoor shop. You say it's accurate? All right. So for instance, they have a bowling alley where all the bowling balls, like some of them are like bass, like fishing things, but they also have great white
+
+[2:20] shark, and they, like, and the ball returns are like sharks and octopi. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Pretty cool. And like the overheads have like that kind of like 50s like enchantment under the sea prom night action going on, but with like some sort of like weird like animatronic fishing reef overhead. They have, yeah, they have like a, they have a restaurant there. You can hang out and like, you know, they
+
+[2:43] have... They have a whole bar. Yeah, yeah. And then we're you know, we're going to go bowl a game later on after we're done with the show. And, uh, but we're here really to talk about the fact bass pro shops has a very large selection of cooking gear in it, which is really kind of how this is happening while we're here.
+
+[2:59] And it's a very interesting intersection, one that, uh, I know I'm interested in, and it's, it's like half kind of Hunter Fisher, like preservation stuff, so a lot of
+
+[3:07] dehydration and a lot of like sausage grinding. Like you can get a pretty big sausage grinder here. But then also just a lot of outdoor cooking in general. Tell them what you want Like which part of what I want? The one thing that you would really like to buy from here. It has nothing to do with cooking. Yes, it does. You talking about the pontoon, though? Oh, the thing you saw today. Oh, the giant skillet? Yeah, yes. Or no, so no, so they... What's on the picture of that? That was a big skillet. a big old skillet. Now here's the weird thing. Apparently that's for like camping guys to do it. Use it, but it's Teflon. So like it was Teflon coded. Who the heck is going to put a Teflon coded pan on an outdoor
+
+[3:43] fire because if you overheat the Teflon, Don Donsky. You know what I mean? I would not, would you? But it was Teflon, wasn't it? That's, I think, a product that needs improvement. needs some improvement. needs to go old school, in fact. needs to go back in time to an era where they just would season the hell out of their pants before they use them. Now, they do have an very large cast iron section, which I appreciate. I was talking to one of their product sales people, like who, and I was trying to get a read off of the guy, kind of what is selling and what's not, like what's, and apparently, and this is good news for us in general, um, things like uh,
+
+[4:21] old, old style cooking techniques like uh, like Dutch oven cooking with the, with the, not like what we're used to, but the ones where you actually have
+
+[4:28] the lip where you put coals on top of it and cook outdoor, like outdoor camp cooking in a, in a, in a
+
+[4:33] cast iron Dutch oven. He says that's really coming back, making a resurgence, and they're going to teach classes and whatnot here later. on an outdoor kind of cooking. But what I want, more to Nastasia's point is I've kind of had my eye for a while on this thing called a cowboy grill.
+
+[4:47] You seen this, Jack? No, haven't. Stas, why don't you... So it's kind of like a combination fire pit slash slash outdoor grill. Oh, say that. So we're on the we're on the radio show. What brings you to Bass Pro tonight, man? Well, I'm a Bridgeport kid, grown versed in Bridgeport Hospital, Bridgeport Hospital, ICU, medicine. I a nurse. I open a home care company, abundant care, right here in Bridgeport. Sure. I drove up and down the street for 15 years watching people get killed, literally with the potholes. I got nails, potholes, and Mayor Finch owes me a lot of money. But I'm down here now. Why don't you tell people what this particular neighborhood where we were was like before this went
+
+[5:28] in? Oh my gosh, carpenter steal. Carpenter steel right along the water. Okay? Pleasure Beach, the boats, the docks, the ferry, poor Jeff Ferry. Okay, forever, right in this area. Then you got Seaview, which will swing you right up to Bridgeport Hospital, right? Perfect. Got to get on and I've got to get the EMTs up. And that's my story. But do you think but do you think that having something like this here is going to bring a lot more people to their region? Absolutely. You know, the jobs that they're going to create. I hear I hear through the grapevine that Mario Batali is going to come in to Main Cheet, the
+
+[6:01] chew, right next to Ralph and Richie. That's gonna be cool. Let me ask. Do you think that's true? Is it Batali coming here, sis? That would be good. Her boyfriend is the chef at Del Posto, which is one of Batali's flagship restaurants. I haven't heard anything, but that would be great. Did you say you heard it from the restaurant, guys? They used to be on our radio station. That's right. Oh, wow. Look at that. Dinner tonight for a whole bunch of restaurant guys. La Cole there, Ralph and Richie. If the restaurant guy said it, I think it's gonna happen. God, I mean, can you imagine coming here? That would be amazing for Bridgeport. Maybe a culinary scoop here. That's right. I think we just got a scoop. Maybe a maybe we have a culinary scoop here on cooking your tooth from the bass pro shop parking lot. Yeah, you get rice tinto to cook. He the best cook I've ever known, and he can cook. I know some pretty good cooks though. Yeah there are some I'm a good cook too. I'm having an open house on Thanksgiving. Sure, it's good for business, abundant care. You might want to come. I got the Napa reserve, I do. Awesome. I was in that one in June. I was out there for my brother got sick, and my sister and I went out. She got sick. I drove a car, got lost in the valley. Brought home 36 cases of reserve. You heard it here first. Thank you for joining cooking issues. Enjoy. So, well, okay. Not our normal. That was great. Not our normal, but nice. What if that actually happened? What if we broke? Listen, I'm a nurse and I gotta take care of these kids, bro. Yeah, yeah. What if what if we broke the news? of a new Mario Kali restaurant. I'm pretty sure we just did from... don't know. Anyway, so back to what we were talking about. So they have two, so the thing that I want is this thing called a cowboy grill. And what it is, it's a fire pit, but it has like a expanded metal grate over it so that you can cook on the fireprip,
+
+[7:58] but you can rip the grate off. But the other cool thing is it's got like an old school swing arm, like for like a
+
+[8:03] kettle, you can hang over it and it's got a rotisserie on it that you could like hand crank. So it's like kind of like one stop shopping for cooking outside and for fire. My only problem is, is that, you know, like Miley Carpenter, my sister-in-law, Wiley Dufray, the chef. So they have a really kind of a nice fire pit, but their fire pit is like that kind of steel that like just
+
+[8:22] rusts to a certain point but never rusts any more than that. So it stays outside all the time. This thing is got that black paint on it. So you know it's going to rust out. You know, they said it's going to rust out. Well, what is? Yeah, he hits what he said. Also, I mean, but listen, look, they seem like very nice people, but they were trying to convince me. You know what the top seller is right now, Jack, here? No. They call it oiless fryer. Oh, no. Oiless turkey fryer. Stas is making her oiless fryer face, which isn't a vegan face. It's more like the, what kind of nonsense is that face? It's kind of like smiling because obviously, like, if you if you put the words oilless and fried together, you've just lied. Mario Batali would not use that product. No, oilless fryer. And the guy's like, it's just like it's that you fried it. I like, well then you're frying wrong. Then you're frying wrong. See, like, right? She's not right. Weird. Do you know what I'm gonna do? And how does it work? Do you want to, it does, it's just, I think it's just a roasting. It doesn't. The guy really liked it, but it can't. So can I talk about an invention that I'm going to make? that I don't think I'm gonna we're gonna sell it ever. So I don't think it's gonna... I don't think I have to worry about patting it because I'm never going to sell it. I am going to make the low volume oil. This is for turkeys and pigs and cows. Ready? The low volume oil spray fryer, right? So it's like a washing machine, but instead of spraying detergent and hot water, it's
+
+[9:46] going to spray freaking hot oil. So you can have a small amount of oil, right, with like an intense little heater, and fry anything that you can fit into a dishwasher. By spraying it. by... Well, just can be like, you know how like, okay, so the way that I finish something large when I don't have a deep fryer is I heat a thing of
+
+[10:03] oil and then I'll ladle hot fat over it. So that's how, like, you know, when if I have to do turkey, like at my in-law's house or at my mom's house, I'll go outside, I'll superheat the oil, I'll put the oil on a grill to keep it at the right
+
+[10:13] temperature. Which is unsafe, please. I't want to hear it. And then like I ladle, like ladle the hot fat over the stuff to crisp up the skin the same way that like in a restaurant when you're cooking. And this is the secret that I don't know why home cooks haven't figured this out yet, but you have the hot pan with the fat in it, you tip the pan back with a
+
+[10:30] spoon and you baste the hot fat over the thing to get the other side warm and nice, right?
+
+[10:35] That's how you do it, which you never see people do that at home. You ever see people do that in homestyles, but every single restaurant cook knows how to do that. Why doesn't everyone know how to do that? It's so simple. I think it's because people don't put enough fat in the pan when they're doing stuff anyway. So they don't have anything to like baste over the top. But anyway, you know, if you're the one person who listens to the show that didn't already know that, congrats, like you're now you're part of the club. But the point is, imagine if you did that in a, in like, in something the size of a dishwasher. And I was just like, boop, boop, boop, spraying hot oil
+
+[11:07] around. The real question is the safety interlocks, because imagine if you opened up the dishwasher style thing, when the oil will still spray, it's like,
+
+[11:15] ah, that's not true. It's got to walk. It's got a, well, it's got a lock and it's got to take. So if you ever use a combi oven, Jack. Those things, like usually you have to pop it once. It turns off, then you pop it again to open it so that you're not like, otherwise you could like just open it and the steam
+
+[11:31] is like, whoosh, right in your face, which is bad. considered bad. I'm sure it happened to the 1st few people, especially because like the rationale, which is like the 1st big combi oven that a lot of people got in the United States, it's like German.
+
+[11:43] And so I bet they were like, was the instructions say not to do this? So why would you ever open it when it's on? You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure the early German ones, you could just like scald your face off because everyone who owned it just followed the instructions.
+
+[11:57] Where as soon as it comes to, you know, America, we're like, you know, I don't read any, I don't read any
+
+[12:02] consarn instructions. And then they opened it and, you know, some dude scalded their face off and looked like a peeled grape and then they, you know, they had to like, you know, put all these safety interlocks on. Anyways. Anyways, hey, I have to jump in here and say that I'm thrilled. We are getting tweets that people are listening live. is actually working. So people are actually listening to us live in the back. Okay, so his name is a moose douche. I love that guy. Twitter, yeah. We're buddies. And he says he wants an autograph on a board like that. I don't really know what this means. We don't take an autograph. Maybe on a booze board to match the one I already have. have one with me. But the... Do you want a question? Yeah, give me a question. Here's the Twitter question. At scooter Zackheim says, I'm making a deboned, injected turkey cooked over hot stuffing this week. Temp, temperature thoughts, 350, 375, 400, stuffing temp. Thanks. Wait, you mean for the finish? Presumably for the finish. Let me see. Let me see these questions. So I'm making a deep bone injected turkey cooked over. Okay, cooked over hot stuffing. So if you're not going to low temp it at all, but see, usually what I'll do is temp it for a while and put it over to flash it up, but yeah, I think high is good. If the stuffing is really nice and hot, I think you could go high. Yeah, I think you go on the higher side. like in the forest, right? If you deboned it, you could probably go in like the mid 4s and like throw it over the thing and just wait for the skin to crisp
+
+[13:26] up and it should be good. I think it's gonna work. There's one that Jack just got, what do you got question here? So he's got a food safety question, a weird one. He makes food for his cat and he buys a vitamin bone meal mix that's meant to be mixed with raw chicken. He gets his raw chicken from a bushwick grocery store. Bushwick. Yeah. However, so he's been chopping it into chunks and quickly frying it with the idea of killing any nasties hanging out on the outside. Is there a better way to do this that's simple and quick. He's a cat that used to literally eat garbage in bed sty. So I don't worry too much about him, but I always wonder if there's a better way to do this. That is a good question. So there's a whole school of thought on animal foods. And there's a whole school of thoughts specifically on food needing to be raw that you feed the animals. And I've always wondered why, but I don't know whether it's just animals don't get foodborne viruses or not. Um, But the other problem is, is, did they say that they boned it out or is it? it's got bone meal mixed with raw chicken, but the chicken, if you cook a chicken bone, it's really bad because then it starts splintering. So you have to be careful of that. So what do they do? They're frying it. No, there's no simple. I don't know of any simple way other than like a fast, like a super fast high heat. I mean, you could just throw it, like the chunks of chicken into like a 5 jillion degree oven for like, you know, 10 minutes and kill anything on the outside, but I don't, yeah, I don't know
+
+[14:50] of anything that's going to be super, I mean, like, because I don't know whether your cat's going to enjoy it if you dipped it in bleach. You know what I mean? Like, you could probably dip it in bleach, but I don't know if your cat's going to enjoy that so much. I know my dog who's incredibly picky would not. No bone. Yeah, no bones. Maybe someone in the no bones. Yeah, maybe someone in the in the in the chat room verse can't, like, have some
+
+[15:12] experience, because I have to say, I just feed my dog, like, you know,
+
+[15:18] like, crappy store-bought food. Fair enough. right, next question. Joe Hanley, New York City says, Dave, can you send out the name of the squid guts fish sauce you talked about at the
+
+[15:28] Mofad Labs? It's called Ishiri. So the fish gut sauce that we use is made exclusively from the guts and blood of squid, and it's called
+
+[15:35] isheri. It's from Ishikawa in Japan, and it's carried by the Mutual Trading Corporation in Sea Caucus, New Jersey. And what you do is you just, if you call them in advance, they will send it into their store in
+
+[15:50] Manhattan. But if you go to mutual trading company, they can get it. And I also found out that true world foods carries my other favorite Japanese fish sauce
+
+[15:58] IU, and they can get that. So true world food. So those are the 2 sources for the ones. But go get some Ishiri because as I've said, I think on the show before, and I said live at the museum event. It is a dead ringer for the Garum sociarum that was specifically made out of mackerel guts that I
+
+[16:14] had, I had the, I had Sally Granger, who, as I said, is the, is the world expert on Roman fish sauces. It was her personal stock of two-year-old Garam that she had mixed to the recipes as best she could. Dead Ringer, Ishiri. So if you want to go Roman, go get yourself some Mishiri from Mutual Trading Corporation. Hello, sir. Welcome to the Bass Pro. We're on a show called cooking issues. It deals with kind of cooking, cooking techniques and problems. barbecue. Oh, yeah? Oh, nice. All right. So I've been doing it for 40 years. You can hold my mic. Oh, I'm talking... Yeah, if you don't want your live. So what kind of so what brings you? you doing a barbecue here later? No, no, I just came to see the shop. It's about time they have something like this this area. Tell me about it. People don't realize there's enough hunters and fishermen in Connecticut, and I think people would be surprised if the place is packed. I think a lot of people don't understand what Connecticut is once you get right off the highway. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. There's a lot of forest land here and everything. Lakes, it's great north of Danbury, you got Candlewood. and everything. So some great fishing. Norwalk River goes all over to Danbury. Great trout fishing there. So are you currently doing pit barbecue in Kentucky or visiting Norwalk? Oh, you're Norwalk? I live in Norwalk right now. Oh, yeah. Kentucky aboriginally. I've been barbecuing from more than 40 years. What's the style in Kentucky as opposed to, let's say, like in North Carolina or something like that? So what's the style of barbecue? Kentucky, it's more of a Western. from Western Kentucky and West Kentucky, West Tennessee, which is Memphis. Okay. So that's the style of barbecue you're going to find. A light rub. When you pit smoke your meat, it's usually hickory and white oak or oak. Okay? And maybe some fruit trees would. And then what we do is we burn the wood offset and then shovel the coals underneath the meat, let the grease hit the hit the coals and it smokes up and it's actually a science to it. Now, are most people, so I know that in the mid, I would say in the early to mid 90s, almost everyone who
+
+[18:16] was doing professionally on the coast anyway, over in Carolina, almost everyone has switched over to gas, and
+
+[18:22] there was only a few holdouts left that were splitting wood and making their own, doing their own stuff. Do you feel that it's come back? It's gone the other way or is it just neighborhood to neighborhood? It's what it is, is an area. Okay, you're not going to find that gas down in Kentucky and Tennessee or Alabama or even Georgia, really. You taste the fuel on the meat if you use gas. You actually tasted. There's a barbecue place up here in Fairfield. Okay? I won't say the name, but if when you eat is meat, you can taste the fuel. You know, my pit in my backyard in Norwalk, I don't ever use gas or anything. I just use straight wood and you never taste the fuel. You taste smoke. Do you sell professionally or just do it for yourself? I do it for myself, and then people ask me to do it for them, and I charge you a little money for it. And I did 30, 31 turkeys last Thanksgiving, probably more than that this
+
+[19:16] year for different people. So you think like in places like Kentucky, those guys never switched over to gas? No, no, no, no. They won't do it. Nice. It's the way they are. Deep South is like that. won't touch the gas. Well, you know, like in Eastern North Carolina, which is where I used to spend most of my time eating barbecue back in the day.
+
+[19:34] Like I say, there were very few people that held onto it. And I know like that area of North Carolina, really kind of moved to use technology, not just in that, but in many things, like the way their hands were produced and stuff like
+
+[19:45] that. But I was just wondering, I guess luckily that never reshoveled. You like Kentucky Ham? Oh, yeah. I like country ham, you know? Yeah, you like you like Newsoms? Don't know Newsoms. Who you like over there? Broadband. Oh, I like broadband. They good. You got Finchville. You like Finchville? Finchville, and you got in Tennessee, you got, and I can't think of the name of
+
+[20:07] it. I'm not sure if that's, no, it's Smith, not Smithfield. That's end of the product. I can't remember it, but down Tennessee is a great place for country ham like that, but Broadbent, where I'm from, is big. Yeah nice. All righty. What's your name? Richard Dunn. Richard Dunn. Well, thank you so much. Yes, sir. Thanks for letting me talk to you a little bit here. If you ever need some advice about smoking or pit barbecue, I do it all. salmon was one of my favorites. People love smoked salmon. It only takes about 4 hours to do that one. Brisket shoulders takes a lot longer, you know, 1215, sometimes even if you get a full shoulder with the butt and
+
+[20:49] a picnic together. It takes about 24 hours. Oh, nice. So I, you know, I take my time and slow and slow. Keep it between 180 through 20. Nice, beautiful. Enjoy the, enjoy the store. Oh, I am. I am. Y'all take care. Thank you. Great to have you around. All right, thank you so much. There we go. All right, so what's the different kind of call in, huh? We got a call? No, that was a different kind of call right there. So, uh, let's see, bag cost says no mushroom is under VAC. Is this only for botulism? Okay for cook, but not for hold. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. So, what the problem with mushrooms in a bag is it's fine. Look, mushrooms are like the classic gonna give you poisoning, botulism, poisoning. It's the classic because they're typically, if you're going to can mushrooms, let's say, or jar them. You're going to do them at a relatively, um, it's not going to be high acid. It's going to be low acid product, right? Because do you like your, do you like like high acid mushrooms? Do you like? I like pickled mushrooms actually, like really highly vinegated. I like them. But like a lot of times people can't, they want it to taste more like a mushroom mushroom. And so those things, you have to can them pretty hard to make sure you're killing all
+
+[21:56] that, you ready for it, Stas? Spoons. Yeah, so you got to kill all the spores on it. And so like that's that's really what the problem is. And when you do a vacuum bag, you're never going to do that. So, yeah, but it's not unsafe. It's just safe to treat it like, like it's been preserved. If you keep it in the fridge and you eat it within a reasonable amount of time. It's fine. I will say this. I love cooking mushrooms in a bag because mushrooms are like sponges. And when you put it in a vacuum bag, You can inject the mushrooms with a boat ton of flavor, and then when you do,
+
+[22:28] like, you, like, low tip it for a little while in the bag, you pull them out. Oh my god, I'm taking on that guy. pull them out and you hit them with the you hit them in the pan and they still retain some of that flavor, even though a lot of the actual juice comes off. So you can infuse mushrooms with a good bit of flavor. I was asking if you can ISI mushroom infuse them with vinegar too. Probably. He's also typing with his thumbs on a vinegar, then you're going to be safer. You know what I mean? If it's going to be high vinegar. But you could ISI. The problem with ISI infusion is, you know, go on Amazon and look on the section on
+
+[23:00] ISI on vacuum infusion in liquid intelligence, because I believe that's in the look inside. And the problem with infusing and that kind of infusion is that the
+
+[23:11] ECs are really good when you want to get flavor out of something. But when you want to put flavor into something, you have to worry that when you're depressurizing, you're not pulling the stuff out. So we actually would have to stick the mushrooms in a bag with the flavor, shove that into the EC with liquid around it, and then inject the pressure, and
+
+[23:28] usually I have to do it twice. So yes, it can be done. But for the technique to really get it done right, look at the look on the look inside and Amazon on the liquid intelligence. And you can see a full set of pictures to figure out how to do it. I do it for the cucumber martini, but that's a new accent. What is that one? I don't know. That was kind of... I don't know what that is. It's someone who enjoys what they're doing. They think it's very classy. The martini. Ready? Yeah, sure, what do you got? At Ryan S. Barnett says, could I use Cal Mexicana in place of lie for lie soaked eggs? No. Uh, the, so, so, so, Cal, it is, uh, you know, what is used for nixtamalization, uh, calcium hydroxide, and you cannot get a high enough pH with that to do the lye
+
+[24:15] eggs. What they use is calcium oxide, which is a
+
+[24:19] much higher strength base. You might be able to do. You might be able to do the Harold McGee bake out of the baking soda to get a much more, you know,
+
+[24:31] anywhere you bake out the baking soda, you turn it from bicarbonate, the sodium carbonate. That might be enough, but I'm not sure. I've only ever used straight lie. But what you're looking for is a certain PH. So we published the recipe online, didn't we at one point? somewhere in cooking issues. Somewhere on cooking issues, backlog. So if you, I mean, it would be possible to look up the malarity we used and then and then look up what the what the pH of that malarity of
+
+[24:53] lye would be and to mimic that with with calcium
+
+[24:57] carbonate, not bicarbonate. So I say calcium, sodium, carbonate, not, or probably calcium, oxide. I think, isn't it calcium oxide they use, not calcium
+
+[25:07] hydroxide? I had to look it up. I do it off the top of my head. But Cal is not very soluble and is never going to
+
+[25:14] reach the pH of the stuff that we were doing the lye eggs in is enough to like not want to dip your hands into. Whereas I'll put my hands into a container of Nick Stamal anytime. And he wants to know what ratio to H2O for quail eggs. Where for what? For what technique? I think he was at your mopad thing. I didn't use quail eggs at most. Oh, really? Then I have no idea. What do we what do? Quail eggs. What ratio? I got some quad eggs. I got quail eggs at home. What should I do with them? What do you want to do with them? don't know. They're like quail eggs are good. A dozen quail eggs. Quail eggs are good, like raw over, like, soba? That makes sense. Or like, I also, they're fun. hard-boiled. Hard-boiled. Or you could do like, like, it's hard to, the problem with quail eggs is that if you want to do like a fun soft boil thing, They're really hard to peel because the membrane around the white is really tough. So what I do is I do, I have one of those little like cigar chomping quail egg cutters. Because I'm very fancy. Styles likes to point out. a very fancy man. And so like I have it, but the trick with it is, is you have to take the shell off of both sides, not
+
+[26:20] one. And then you take your pinky and boop. Okay. right through it and knock it out. I'm not sure. didn't use clay legs at the thing. I got to figure out what you're talking about. I did Hamin eggs. Oh, so you could do... How do you? we're doing cooking issues You won't remember me, but FCI graduate. Oh, yeah? 2011. Oh, nice, beautiful. How you doing? Well, what's doing well. you have a restaurant here? Actually, I have a catering business out here. Yeah, nice. Way down the street, actually, on the same road. That's beautiful. Festive food caterers. Festive food caterer. So excited about the bass pro shops? You know what? It's been a long time coming. lived here 33 years. And for the last 20 years, this was nothing but, you know, broken down, abandoned houses and to have this here, it's amazing. I haven't seen this many cars in this neighborhood in probably about 20, 25 years. Usually when you get 4th of July, you get this many cars parked so they could see the fireworks. Other than that, it would have been just a lot, empty lot. This is exciting. I mean, I drive past here a lot, and you said, there's nothing. There's nothing. There was nothing here. I mean, it's so exciting. You know, living here 33 years and seeing it developed from what it was to what it became to what it
+
+[27:30] is now. It's amazing. So you think it's going to help in general, like, bring us, is that going to be good for business, for restaurants or? It definitely is. You know what I mean? They actually called me for a couple of catering events. Starbucks called me for one catering event. So, you know what? Before, who was I going to cater to this empty lot? There was no one here. Right. So you know what? I mean, I might not get all the catering events, but at least I'm one of the ones that are
+
+[27:51] again the events because they're, you know, they're noticing that we're out here. And I'm loving it. I glad you're out here. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we were like, we saw the bass pros going up. We love bass pro. we're coming to the opening. Where were you? Are you in New York? No, New York. That's awesome Yeah, coming up from New York City. We do a we do a radio show now called Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. It's an extension of the blog that we used to do at FCI. Yeah. Oh my god, that's amazing. awesome. So give us the name of your catering place again. Festive food caterers. Nice. Out of Bridgeport, right near the Bass Pro shops. So, you know, when you come to Bass Pro, and if you're going to have like a party or a tailgate or something, you need someone to come cater it, maybe. There you go, everybody have a card with me. Nice. There you go. Thank you, Chef. Thank you. And there's always a pleasure to see you out here. Oh nice. You know, there's only a few people that can remember for me, say hi, and you were one of them. Oh, well thank you very much. Thank you. Take care, guys. All right, bye-bye. Bye. Take care, bye. So, Quail X. Get lots of work. So if you want to do a Hamin egg. Maybe they want to do hamine egg. or, like, where you cook, I've never done a Hami and Quail egg. Anyway, how many eggs for those of you that don't know is if you cook an egg for a long, long time, egg whites are more alkaline than most things that we eat. And because alkalinity, uh, you know, uh, accelerates my yard reaction or like allows my
+
+[29:08] reactions to happen at lower temperatures, you can get brown toasty tasting eggs that are, um, that are delicious just by pressure cooking them.
+
+[29:17] So I would say for a quail egg, because you're trying to do the Hamin thing, you would cook it as long as you would a chicken egg, which would mean about an
+
+[29:26] hour. So I would put them in water, let them come up to temperature for, you know, to simmer so they don't get broken, put pressure on it for about 45 minutes to an hour, and then let the pressure come down
+
+[29:37] naturally. Do not push it down. Anyway. All right. We got any more questions? Stas is trying to look up the questions on my phone. But the problem is my phone is also our connection to the outside world. not doing anything. Oh, do we lose the connection on our computer for questions? All right, okay. So I'll just start yammering about other stuff at the Bass Pro. So yeah, so they're saying that the big seller this year. Favorite series is all camping application from Joel Stube. Oh, no kidding. Well, depends on what you're doing when you're camping, kind of how you're rolling. So, I, you know, I did, uh, I brought flour out with me, and so I was doing, um, we're doing pizzas, uh, and I really enjoyed being able to finish the top of the pizza off
+
+[30:21] with uh, Searsol. You know, also, I had good luck with fish. Also, I was out on a river. I had really good luck like doing like, because like let's say you're, you're, you're, have a camp and you're camping there for a couple of days, but then you want to go out and almost like kind of cook like picnic style, like on a
+
+[30:39] river. You can bring like the sears all with you. We did like grilled cheese and things like that. So that, you know, was the stuff we kind of had. We had a lot of good luck with. But when you're cooking over a campfire. It's a lot of times useful to have a directed small thing of flame that you can just hit. So it just it's something that comes up a lot when you're cooking over the campfire. So for instance, like I was cooking pancakes. I think I talked about this on the show once, but I was cooking pancakes, and the pan was too hot over the fire, and so they were cooking too fast on the one side. So I'd use the sears all to rapid set the top of the pancake so I can flip it without ruining it. So, you know, stuff like that. It's good for it's good for stuff like that. At nothing Mark asks what's the best wood for smoking beef? Jeez, I don't know. Like, you know, there's a huge school of thought saying that as long as you're not using a wood that doesn't have a high resin content,
+
+[31:31] so for instance, like, you know, well, any resinous wood, that you're going to be basically okay. And so, like, you can't really tell the difference between, I don't know whether I believe this, you can't really tell the difference between, because I've never done the
+
+[31:44] test, between like a hickory wood, let's say, and a fruit wood, like an apple would. But then there are woods that definitely have their own flavors. So if you're using, there's a big difference between using chips to make smoke and actually coals.
+
+[31:56] I think once you're making something into a coal, then I don't think it's going to be adding a lot of flavor on its own, but the chips clearly have different aromas. I don't really know. Depends on what you like. Like, what do you like? Do you like stars, what do you like? surprised to hear that that guy said fruit tree would. Well, fruit. No, he's he's burning wood down to coal's and using it. He's not like using chips and smoking them. He's doing like coals that are providing smoke, but also heat. So that's different. So I think it's kind of a fundamental like difference. Like when you, if you're just using like dust or chips and smoldering
+
+[32:28] them. It's a very different thing in terms of the quality of the smoke or what
+
+[32:33] it's what the smoke's imparting as opposed to like what I would call like a clear coal off of that. So for something like clerical, like people like hickory, because hickory has a fantastically high fuel value per pound. Like it just is like a very, uh, has a very high, um, it's a good fuel. It's also good wood and a delicious nut. Elliot Papineau wants to know, would you make trail mix over the fire? You mean like, when you say trail mix, what do you mean by trail mix? Like, what do you think? Are you really thinking checks mix? Because that you could... I like checks mix is some straight up delicious stuff. Jack, what are your thoughts on checks mix? Oh yeah, I love it. You love check mix, right? checks mix, yeah. Well, that needs to come back. I feel like it's gone somewhere. I haven't had it in so many, but I haven't. Muddy Buddy is crazy. What's money buddy? It's like just checks mixed with like a shit ton of chocolate on it, right? Chocolate, peanut butter and white. that powdered sugar. Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? So you buy checks mix and then you dump melted chocolate? No, no, no, it comes like that. Whoa, whoa, you buy? No, no, no, no. make it. Wait, what? They sell it. They sell it. They sell it made like this. Well, really, Nastasia's mom tastes. Muddy Buddy checks mix was like a homemade thing before it was a prepackaged
+
+[33:50] thing? Oh yeah. Okay. So just want to describe the techniques. Did your mom make a check mix? No, my friend's moms did. You like melt chocolate into the checks and then... Whoa, whoa, whoa. Checks mix. You got the mix, the salt, the butter. into checks, into checks. Straight checks, not checks mixed. Yes. Just into check. Because checks mixed, checks plus stuff and salt and butter, which is money. I think it's chocolate and peanut butter. What kind of checks do you enjoy for this operation? I don't care, I guess. Rice? Rice checks? I was thinking you're gonna say rice. Now, are you a believer in the cereal crispex? Do you remember crispex? I used to eat that. Yeah, so it looks kind of like, imagine if checks turned into an elongated stop sign and one half was rice and the other half was corn. Yeah. Crispex. I used to like it. used to like it. Yeah, it's good. I like Chris Becks. All right, so we should do one more question and then wrap up in 5 minutes. All right, all right, all right. Give me some more questions, then. At Rem is buzzing. If you if you click agar, clarify juice, and you massage the sack too hard anyway of rescuing juice with agar in... Anyway, a
+
+[34:56] recipe. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure that the, so what we're talking about here is with
+
+[35:03] quick Agar clarification, you put it through like a, like a filter, like a linen napkin or like a very fine
+
+[35:10] grain. I even hate I hate the words coming out of my mouth, cheesecloth, because I know that someone's going to go buy that rancid, big hole rancid stuff that they sell. It's useless. I don't even think that stuff holes are small enough to keep freaking flies out. I think it's a fundamentally useless nonsense piece of crap. I don't know why they sell it. I don't know what it's good for. I think I think it's good just for making me angry and for nothing else. How many people's food in the world over the years have been ruined by buying that crap that they think is
+
+[35:39] cheesecloth, but is not. Cancer. I don't know. It's not even good for gauze because it's not sterilized. It's useless. It's without use. It makes me angry. I don't know if you can tell that. It's good for crafting. For what? ghosts. Oh, yeah. Like mummy? Yeah. Like mummies? Okay. All right, all right. Rehabilitated. But I should say fake mummy fabric on it. nothing else. So anyways, so if you have massage, so what you do is, is you make an Agar, you make an Agar, set Agar gel, 2 up, 0.2%, 2 grams per liter, not
+
+[36:16] 20. have had people do that a 1000000 times. You break it up into a Kurd, you put it into what we call the sack, and then you get the clear juice out. But what you have to do with your hands is hear that? Can you hear that? No, not on this mic. I'm massaging the sack. And so what it is, is, is you have to gently, ever so gently and gingerly hold the sack and massage the sack to clear the pores such that the clear liquid can drip
+
+[36:41] out. But if you squeeze the sack. You squeeze it. What's going to happen is you're going to extrude the agar through the sack. And then not only do you have a damage sack, which nobody enjoys, but you have cloudy juice, which also nobody enjoys.
+
+[36:56] Now, the question that we have here is, can you, can you somehow refilter the, the Agar out of the cloudy sack? And I gotta say, I don't know. Like, uh, you could try putting it through a straight coffee filter at that point. but I have a feeling that you might be in trouble. What you can do is just let it settle for a couple of hours and maybe rack the stuff off the top. But you might, you might be, as my good friends say, SOL. That's right Yeah. Or you could wait a couple of months and buy, one of us sent a few just by one of our centrifuges, then it will be clear. There you go, right? Yeah, yeah. So at Mr. Chris Wright says, do you know anyone who might be interested in a free
+
+[37:37] centerfuge, the unit has been displaying a lid error and needs some work. What kind of centrifuge does it say? No explanation. But if anybody wants to know, just tweet him at Mr. Chris Wright. That's W-R-I-G-H-T. Mr. like MR? Like MR. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, Chris, don't give up on your centerfuge. Like, let me know the, what were you singing? What song are you? With the Star Sea and Hutch. How does it go? Is never give up part of the lyrics? Don't give up. Don't give up? See, because I was having, I was rick rolling myself in my head when I
+
+[38:13] say never gonna give. Yeah, never going to give you up because that's what I said of you. Rick rolling yourself in your head. Yeah, so the video is playing in my head right now. As opposed to the, normally what's playing in my head is the elves jumping into the woodchippers. And it just got interrupted with... Yeah. So I think I'm tuning into my own head and seeing the elves jumping into the
+
+[38:30] woodchipper over and over again. And instead, I tune into my head and then Rick Astley is there, which is, I mean, worst. Although you know who likes Rick Astley, Booker, my son Booker. Because his his girlfriend, friend who is a girl who maybe someday will be his girlfriend, likes Rick Astley for
+
+[38:47] some, like, unknown reason. I mean, his voice is not bad. Rick Astley's voice not bad. Anyway, so back, I got to finish this before we go. Do we have any more questions? No, we should go in and interview some people, which we could. before we sign off live, though. So they have this thing called an oiless fryer. Okay. We already talked about this a little bit, but I'm going to go investigate. Should we buy one of these things? Ooh. Yeah. Yeah I think so. It's not expensive. It's on sale Now would be the time, right? That would be the time. What, and have Patrick at Heritage. By the way, there's still time to order a heritage turkey. From Heritage Meats, and I've cooked them many times. They're good. I mean, like, We should just get like a butterball. Oh, another thing for bass pro shots before you mention. Yeah, do it with a crap. I'm not saying that no offense to the butterball corporation. Another thing I'll say is they do carry outdoor deep fryers here made by a company that I've heard is very good called
+
+[39:40] Cajun, Cajun, something. Oh my god, it's out of my head. But it is, in fact, a semi-professional deep fryer with a cold
+
+[39:48] zone, and it's meant to hook up to a propane tank, and it's meant to live outside. So anyone who's interested in the idea of having a fryer outdoors, as I now have had for several months and can endorse now is a good idea. They sell them here and they have a pop down lid on them that covers them up so that the oil gets covered up. So give it a try. Come on down a bridge. And I hear it's a good company. Come down, come down, bass pro shots, and we'll catch you later on. Cooking issues.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of
+
+[0:06] Heritage Breed Pigs and Turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods, USA.com. I am Patrick Martin, host of the main course. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agents. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network in Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:40] Brooklyn for the Thanksgiving Day episode. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Uh, along with my usual, uh, you know, crew here of Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez,
+
+[0:52] I says. And Jackie Molecules, Jackie Insley in the booth. and Rebecca on the live tweet machine. We have via phone, Chris Young from Chef Steps, who has a big thing to announce, and Patrick Martin's, founder of our
+
+[1:05] great network, and of Heritage Meets, who's going to talk a little bit about turkeys in a minute. But Chris, thanks for calling in. What do you got for us? What's going on with the chef steps world? By the way, for those of you that don't know. I think we're announcing today that Chef steps has had a secret. We've been, uh, we've been working on better Subi tools for a couple of years and uh, oh, and so we're announcing Jewel today. Nice. Okay, so for the one person who might have found our broadcast somehow who doesn't know what chef steps is, it's very easy to find out, the simplest thing to do is to just go online to chefsteps.com and register and
+
+[1:39] it's, uh, uh, you know, you'll get like a bunch of tips, not only on modern and stuff, but on the kind of the new analytical way of thinking about cooking in general, whether they're using new techniques or
+
+[1:49] not. It's a very analytical mindset, which, of course, I appreciate. And aside from their awesome videos and tips and whatnot, you'll find a forum, which is
+
+[1:58] very, uh, which is very helpful for cooks all over the world. This is accurate or inaccurate. I say that's pretty accurate, and we're also taking questions on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and other social networks that I don't even know
+
+[2:11] about yet. Nice. All right, now, so Jewel, by the way, it's not spelled Jewel, as in the Alaskan singer. Sorry, Patrick, it's not the Alaskan singer. Yeah. Disappointing I know. Yeah, Jewel, as in as in the unit of energy. Uh, and uh, just goes to show that if uh, you were wondering whether Chris Young and the
+
+[2:35] chefs have people are metricized, whether they are metric folk, I think you now have your answer, because of the unit of measure that they are choosing
+
+[2:43] to uh, to use there, right? You ever have any thoughts on going imperial with the naming of the unit
+
+[2:49] thing or no? You want something that's vaguely female sounding, maybe? I't know, what do you think? What's the origin of jewel? The origin of Jewel is that, you know, sous vide's really about adding a measured amount of heat to your recipes, so you don't over undercook it. So it seemed appropriate to name our nice compact little unit after what sous vide's really about, which is heat. That's that, there you go. Now, uh, describe now, uh, most everybody here, uh, who's listening to us now, knows what an emersion circulator is. But for those like who don't. It's a device of any sort, really, that both circulates water. So, or it doesn't have to be water, but circulates a liquid. So in this case, static water baths like the sous vide supreme would not count as a circulator. And also has a heater and sometimes chilling, although very few of us have one device so that you can very accurately maintain a temperature in said
+
+[3:47] liquid. And it ranks right up there. It's like the, it's the newest, most different kind of most important cooking innovation sense, probably
+
+[3:57] refrigeration, is my guess. Um, what do you think, Chris? Yes or no? The accurate control of temperature in general, the most important thing since refrigeration. I would bet. Well, you know, I really think sous vide the 1st real cooking technology that's likely to really change the mainstream kitchen since the microwave, which is like really World War
+
+[4:16] 2 technology. So it's time we do something different. I think it's bigger than the microwave though. In other words, in terms of its final impact, I think bigger than the microwave. I mean, maybe not as going to be as ubiquitous as the microwave, but in terms of, like, for instance, when your microwave breaks, you're like, I got to get around to buying one sometime, right? But it doesn't really change what you can do in the kitchen. You're just like, ah, now I got a dirty pot when I melt butter. Am I right? Yeah, I mean, the microwave is a tool that's all about convenience. Sous vide is going to give you just quality and creativity. You can't get any other way. Right. Okay. So now, we're all familiar with what an immersion circulators. Now for, again, for the 3 people that don't already know this saga, I'll give you the saga.
+
+[4:55] So this is originally a piece of laboratory equipment. We're talking now prior to about 2004. This is a piece of or three. It's primarily with the exception of very few high-end chefs around the world scattered around the world. It is a piece of laboratory equipment. It costs roughly, if we're talking only 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago. They cost 2000 bucks. That's what they cost. And not a lot of chefs have them. Only like very top flight. people who are also interested in modern techniques. Right around 2004, five, you see a price drop down to about $1000 where it stays roughly within $200 of that until roughly 3 years ago when, uh, I think it's
+
+[5:34] Nomiku, actually, uh, broke the price barrier down below 500 and it's been driven down steadily
+
+[5:41] since, with various levels of robustness and quality and equipment, uh, along with also a robust DIY market of people building their own
+
+[5:48] now. So it's driven down to the sub 200 or in the 200 between 150 and $200 range, you can get a circulator that's going to work. Now, I think a lot of these, like, low price circulators have kind of crush a lot of the DIY spirit, except for those people
+
+[6:03] who always just want to build their own stuff. These are the same people that in the 70s would have been buying those RadioShack kits to make radios that aren't nearly as good as the radios you can buy for a nickel. But there will always be those people out there. And by the way, God bless those people. Polar catalog people. Yeah, I'm one of those people. Anyway, so why don't you, Chris, explain where the jewel fits into this, to the to the range of immersion circulators that's already out there. Yeah, well, so, you know, I'd say we're comparable in terms of cost, and we're obviously giving our community a big discount today for
+
+[6:37] pre-orders, and because they got us to this point. But, you know, there was a bunch of things that we've found over the last few
+
+[6:43] years that the Suviet experience really isn't as great as we'd like it to be. At the end of the day, everything else out there is still really just laboratory equipment that's been
+
+[6:52] reskinned and it tends to make it more of a gadget than an actual cooking tool. And as a chef, you know, I take a lot of pride in my tools. I like them to be reliable. I like them to be useful. I like them to be convenient. So we really sat down to rethink both the hardware, but also the user experience. So, you know, on the hardware side, we shrunk it down where, you know, when we started, most of the stuff weighed around £9 and
+
+[7:20] ours got all the way down to a pound and a quarter, um, you know, we wanted
+
+[7:25] it to be small enough that you could fit it in your top drawer, which if your top door is anything like mine, it's pretty crowded. So, you know, we shrunk the diameter down by like a factor of 4 or 5 over the
+
+[7:37] competition. So it's only an inch and 3 quarters in diameter and it's about 11 inches tall. So it's this really compact unit. For those of you that haven't seen it, it visually references devices for other
+
+[7:49] uses if you get my drift. It's that sort of general shape and size. Is that you'd say it's accurate? Yeah. You mean a rolling bed? Yeah, that's what I mean. So, you know, there's a bunch of things there where we wanted it to be commute, but we also wanted to be really durable and reliable. It's going to last 2 years. So all of the all of the parts that are metal. We forged and machined out of out of surgical grades, stainless steel. We put a neodinium rare magnet at the bottom. So if you're using like a cast iron or an induction ready pot, rather than sort of fiddling around with a big, bulky clamp, you know, you just set it down and it grabs onto the pot with £6 of force.
+
+[8:29] Um, uh, it's hard to describe how great that experience is,
+
+[8:33] but, you know, we use these all day in our kitchen and and that's really wonderful. But I think the thing that is certainly going to be, I think it's been described as bold already on the internet today, was we actually took the controls off the circulator and put them into your phone. We put them into iPhones, tablets, Android phones. We're going to put it into things like watches, where, you know, you can easily set the temperature. In fact, we made that unbelievably simple and intuitive
+
+[9:03] in quite a bit faster than buttons on the device. But we were trying to solve a problem that we've found over and over after trying to teach Subi cooking for, gosh, I guess I've been teaching it for about a decade, but really the last 3 or so years
+
+[9:17] was chef steps. When, which when somebody gets into souving and is new, they don't really know where to
+
+[9:23] start, you know, what temperature are they going to like? You know, how do they prefer their steak? We tend to think in terms of rare and medium rare and medium well. But those are really imprecise words that mean different things to different people. So, we invented something that we call visual doneness, where we actually show short film loops in our app, of what you're going to get, um, and how to get
+
+[9:45] there, so that you don't have to translate your preferences as a cook into engineering
+
+[9:51] parameters, you can basically express your desires in a very human way and say, well, that looks like exactly what I want. And the circulator, Jewel, is going to do whatever is necessary to get you that outcome. So that I think streamlining the app connecting it to mobile devices and leveraging the power of what we can do in the phone and in the
+
+[10:12] cloud really has the opportunity to start to change the kitchen and put humans back at the center of the cooking
+
+[10:17] experience. Now, now, okay, so let's just hash this out for a sec. I'm an old fogey, right? And actually, you agree with me. You hate membrane switches like I hate membrane switches, right? Yep. Yeah, we're both haters of the membrane switch. That makes you guys old fogies. Well, because everything's moving that way. But I prefer actual. I'm also an analog control guy. So like I detest ovens with membrane switches where you have to sit there and like hold your finger on a membrane switch to set a number, for
+
+[10:44] instance. I have an oven that every freaking time I turn it on. It comes on at 350 and yet, like 90 times out of 100. I'm using it as a warming oven for stuff that's coming off and so I'm punching it down to 170 instantly. This is Fahrenheit. Sorry, Chris. But the, uh, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, I detest that whole strategy of control. So I also makes me nervous to take controls and indicators completely off of the machine, but what has your reaction been so far with your beta people on this? Are they mostly not old folks? You know, it was, I think, even when we 1st started really exploring taking the controls off the device. It was a, you know, certainly a controversial discussion even within chef steps, but the more we started testing it, the more we started realizing what we were able to deliver in terms of the user experience on an app,
+
+[11:35] the more confident we got. And the funny thing is, we kind of expected a lot of people when we just sort of gave it to them and said, hey, turn this on and use it, you know,
+
+[11:44] why we kind of stand around and watch them. We kind of expected a lot of people to ask, you know, where the controls, where's the on button? And like, it got asked, but very quickly, they didn't
+
+[11:55] care. And it just was very natural. And in terms of how quickly they figured out how to use it and what it did and the way they discovered some of the benefits, we've become really convinced that people are going to love
+
+[12:07] it. Um, it, it, you know, it is going to be a bit different, but this is the direction things are going and
+
+[12:12] somebody's really got to be 1st um, to take this plunge and that's going to be us. Now, it's Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, correct? It is both Bluetooth and Wi-Fi because there's pros and cons to both. We're able to deliver a much more reliable seamless pairing experience with Bluetooth. You just need to bring your phone near to it, and we use proximity to basically know what you're trying to pair with and
+
+[12:36] judge which phones controlling the device. But if you want to be out at the store, if you want to remotely turn the device on before you come home. If you want to get a notification of that your waters reach temperature where your food is done while you're out in the yard playing with your kids, Wi-Fi is much better for that. So we included both, because we don't think the user actually cares about the technology. All they really care about is the experience working flawlessly and seamlessly. Now, is there any sort of like nod to old people like me, like, is there any visual representation from across the kitchen that you've reached temperature or do you have to just have your phone up?
+
+[13:16] Do I have to just accept this? No, you do need a way of indicating that it's on, that it's working, that it's cooking away, and that's where we have, we do have an
+
+[13:24] indicator, LED, that very simply sort of breathes to let you know that it's
+
+[13:29] cooking, and at a glance, you can tell that it's at the temperature and that everything's fine. Oh, thank God. I'm a mortar and pestle guy. I only use a mortar and pestle. old school. Well, luckily for you, you can use it by yourself as passé because you believe... You can use this as a pestle. You know, you create heat that way. stainless steel parts. I'm not going to stop you from using Jewel as the pestle. Yeah, yeah. And it's got a little indent in the top so you could put your thumb on it and to get good leverage while you use the bottom end as a pestle.
+
+[13:56] So it's sturdy. Oh, yeah. It's unbelievably solid. And that was one of the real goals that if in fact, it's totally sealed. I've at least, on 2 occasions, over my career, dropped an immersion circulator into a water bath, both times at a very inconvenient
+
+[14:13] time, since I had to serve like a dinner, most recently at a wedding party. And you shorted it out. So, you know, accidents are going to happen. you know, the kitchen is covered in goo. So we entirely sealed the jewel up so that if it falls into the water, nothing bad's going to happen. It's just going to keep working. And that was actually a really big engineering challenge because that meant we had to get all of the waste heat into the water rather than having a
+
+[14:40] way to ventilate it into the air. So that was one of the real big challenges, but it ultimately actually made us much more energy efficient when we achieved
+
+[14:48] that so that we actually preheat the water faster because all of the waste heat is also going into the water.
+
+[14:53] Right now, now, you don't recommend it, I assume, but you could make a hot tub with this. Sorry, I didn't. I said, you don't recommend it, but you could, like, there's no shock ability here. It's like, is it med grade isolation? Can I use this for a hot tub heater if I wanted to? You absolutely could. You know, those are certification requirements and just good engineering requirements. We built the thing to be safe, durable, and basically a professional grade tool. Now, here's the last one because I know that, like, you can't possibly, because I don't know if anyone makes plugs for this, but if the plug could be certified, could you certify
+
+[15:30] for dishwasher? Um, yeah, I don't know anybody that makes plugs with it. If you throw it in the dishwasher, I don't think anything bad would happen. That's not a test I've done, but having been intimately involved in engineering
+
+[15:43] this, The sanitation cycle, um, you know, uh, I really don't think anything bad would happen. I guess I'm going to have to try that. I just don't think the, the, any standard plug, plug that I know of is certified to be immersed for that long in. Yeah, no, right now there's probably one of our liability lawyers listening to this radio show just completely like ripping their hair out. Now, I'll hear about it later. That's what I'm for. But, you know, it's not going to fail. And in fact, that was one of the other things is the way we engineered the heater. There's no nooks and crannies. You're not going to need to put it in the dishwasher to wipe it clean because there's nowhere for goo to stick.
+
+[16:23] So you're saying nook and cranny advantage for a Thomas's English muffin, but not so much for a circulator? Yeah. Uh, and uh, cleaning. I actually saw the one of the beta units last
+
+[16:36] week and you can unscrew the bottom that Patrick is
+
+[16:40] going to use for a pestle. By the way, clockwise only as you're pestling or you'll unscrew the base, by the way, right? I mean, uh, the, the, but will you undo it and you can pull the, uh, the, uh, impeller out similar to like an aquarium pump motor, right? Yep. And then the inside of the heater is just a seamless stainless steel polished tube. You can stick a sponge in there and just wipe the surface clean if anything were to scald onto the eater. All right. Take us through an £18 turkey process. How what's the breakdown? We'll go through that in a sec. If Chris has time. I know he's like announcing everything. We'll keep him on, but let's just finish the business here first. Like they, uh, wait, I had. Oh, and the part of the reason that you can sell it for reasonable prices that you guys decided to go big. You think you're going to sell a lot of these things, right? Well, to do the things we wanted to do, you really had to make a commitment to mass production. I mean, there's parts that are ultrasonically welded. You're going to start forging massive amounts of stainless steel. Um, you know, to make a real consumer product like that, you have to make a bet that, that people are going to want it, um, and that you're going to sell enough of them to justify, you know, your investments into robots
+
+[17:46] and, and, uh, massive production tools. And by robot, you don't mean that you're just buying a bunch of Roomas. No, I mean, this thing has been designed to be mostly assembled in a very automated way.
+
+[17:59] And that's so that the thing's reliable. You know, you want everyone to have a great experience, and it turns out, you're going to get a better result if you let robots do most of the manufacturing. Nice. All right, and if we pre-order it now, when do we get it? We are shipping in May. Okay, and what's the, what do you, what's the pre-order cost versus what you have to pay if you wait like a chump? So if you're already a shaft steps premium member, which is a $19 one-time fee, and I think a lot of people on your show probably are, they're going to pay $180 between today and January 15th. To anybody else, it's
+
+[18:34] 199 and we include a chef steps premium in there. And again, like, you don't ever pay again. It's once. Um, and then uh, after that, retail price will be $2.99. So that's a substantial discount, yeah. Yep. You know, like, we're building these for people in our community. We want chef steps, community members to have a better cooking experience. So they're the people that got us to this point. We're going to make sure we take care of them. All right, and can you stick around, even though you're announcing a lot, or do you have to run and do the next press thing? I am happy to stick around if there are questions about jewel or turkey or anything else related to the kitchen? I'm happy to commit. Alright, let's do it. We got Patrick Martin's here. Purveyor of heritage turkeys. Are you the largest heritage turkey purveyor in the country? Depends how you define heritage, but of the true American poultry association
+
+[19:24] poultry? Yes. So who is it that sells what you consider to be Trump heritage turkeys that is bigger? Well, I wouldn't say who, but they are various degrees of heritage. And actually, we're looking forward to the USDA enforcing breed claims. Best smartest people were the Berkshire people. A lot of cow people do it too. They just breed in certain physical traits that make it immediately recognizable, like a
+
+[19:48] 6 spotted Berkshire, 6 white spots on the tip of the feet, nose, and tail. That certifies that it's a pure Berkshire. All right, now, I will tell you how I'm doing my turkey this year. And Chris, you see what you think on this. Actually, I have a test right now. I bought a regular turkey leg. So, you know, I'm a big fan of uh, of making the bird look like it's a whole bird because I'm an American and anyone who doesn't make it look like a whole
+
+[20:10] bird. Somehow it's not very American. You with me on this, Chris? I'm with you. Yeah, the guy, see how to look like a bird. This is something that a French person can't possibly understand. Norman Rockwell is an American, yeah. The Northern Rockwell and Turkey. Yeah, he's got to be like, and the other thing is, is that, uh, you know, you'd like it if all the different things are done at the at the right thing. So the simplest way, in my estimation, to do it, the way I've been doing it
+
+[20:35] is I will, well, the last time or 2 is I will do a simple debone where I cut down the back, rip out the
+
+[20:43] bones. I actually leave, I think, the leg bones in, and then inject, uh, turkey,
+
+[20:49] uh, turkey stock brine into the breast meat and just kind of rub salt
+
+[20:54] over, and then drape it over a plug of very hot stuffing and then throw that in the oven at high temperature so it cooks from inside out. And frankly, that's only an additional like 45 minutes of work for the cook and it cooks unbelievably fast because you're cooking it from both sides. So that's kind of what I would recommend for anyone who's not going to, do you have any problems with that technique, Chris, for someone who's not going to go through all the trouble of low temping the whole turkey? Yeah, I mean, if you're not going to low temp, but that's a great way to do it. It's better than, like, I've also had, like, in the old days, like when I had once where the turkey was bad, and I had to rush
+
+[21:31] out. We didn't have the time. and so this is a long time ago. This is like maybe in the 90s, like early 90s. And, uh, literally, we were like, what are we going to do? I was like, I'll tell you what you're going to do. You're gonna go buy a turkey. I'm going to spatchcock that sucker, break it open, cook it flat on a
+
+[21:47] rack, and then kind of squeeze it back into bird shape for Thanksgiving. And you know what? It was not a bad was a good turkey. You know what I'm saying? Because spreading the turkey out like that or heating it from both sides. is already a big win in terms of time. Um, this year, what I'm doing is I'm going to uh, do the same thing. I'm going to bone it on the back, then I'm going to rip, leaving the skin intact. I am going to rip the legs and thighs out of the bird, and I am then going to confit said skinless thighs and legs. Low temp the breasts and skin like an Edgar suit kind of a thing, and then chill it all down, jam the
+
+[22:24] confit legs and thighs back into the bird casing, drape that sucker over the plug of
+
+[22:31] stuffing. And then I think I'm gonna do... I gonna try to do two. I'm going to try to do one in the tandor for finishing and one in a deep fryer. What do you think, Chris? You think this is a good plan? It's a good plan. I can't help but just listen to you and think you would have made a phenomenal torturer
+
+[22:45] in the in the uh mid uh medieval era. Yeah, well, possibly. But you're going to rip the bird apart. I'm going to rip the legs off, cook them at a low temperature. You take a lot of glee in that, but that sounds like a good plan. Well, whenever I'm doing live demos, which I haven't done a live demo of like breaking down poultry in a long time, but back when I used to teach at the
+
+[23:08] FCI. And I think one of the things I used to have to do is I forget what I, but one of the demos that I would always have to do for the students is I'd be breaking chickens
+
+[23:16] down. I think showing them how to go all the way boneless, like you know, break it down. Not Jacques Papan style. He has his own way. Anyway, people, some people would always get discon, a little disconcerted because when I'm demonstrating how to remove the thigh from the
+
+[23:31] body. I always kind of indicate on my own body, if I don't have a chicken with me, kind of where the knife should
+
+[23:37] go, and people are like, oh, oh, you know what I mean? I'm like, but yeah, it's like, you know, it's an animal. You breaking it down, you know? Is there a difference in technique between hens and toms, like nine, £10 birds, you know, especially with the sous vide machines? Oh, that's a good question. I've never cooked that small of a, I don't think I've ever cooked that small of a bird. What do you think, Chris? You ever gone very small on these things? Yeah, um, actually, that's probably about the size I'll be cooking. I'm going to be cooking a £10 heritage turkey myself and what I'll be doing. I'm expecting it to be about 5 hours in the sous vide
+
+[24:13] bath and then I'll pull it out and give it a couple more hours in my smoker. Are you bagging it or are you breaking it? Um, I'll probably bag it. I'm not going to split it down. I'm going to keep it whole and then I'll hang it from its legs so that the weight of the bird sort of stretches itself out while it's in my
+
+[24:31] smoker. Are you going to fill the cavity with anything while it's cooking just so that, or like, how are you going to make up for the compression? Are you going to do zip like a large zippy? like they make those big zippies. Like, what do you? You know, usually I can just sort of wad up some parchment, paper, plastic and sort of stuff it in there. Um, I, I, I, I will put the stuffing um, in the smoker and and have the juices drip onto it. That's when I'll introduce the stuffing. Nice. Now what temperature are you going to cook it to? Uh, I, so, you know, this is always the compromise because, you know, you're not just cooking for
+
+[25:04] yourself and I really don't want to, you know, hear complaints from the rest of the family.
+
+[25:09] So I think I'm going to end up at about 150 Fahrenheit. What's that in Celsius? That's about what, 65? Yeah. USDA claims it has to be 165. So that's, that's just wrong. 10 degrees well, yeah. That's just wrong. Yeah. I mean, it all depends on time and temperature, but let's not get let's not get started. Let's not get started. Yeah, we can go on a whole rant on this. Let's not let's not start. let's not start with this But it's, you know, it's an interesting question. The temperature you cook it too. It is so it is so personal, but on Turkey, I would much rather, if I was going to choose one temperature, shoot for the minimum temperature that's not going to piss people off on the dark
+
+[25:50] meat rather than trying to hit the optimum temperature on the breast. I mean, that's a good choice. a good call. My answer to it is the 2nd you cut into the meat and the juice runs clear. Within 10 seconds of that. You were never allowed on that microphone again, Patrick. Never. Never. Who cooks like that? Well, Nastasia comes from a long line of turkey overcookers. Not you personally, right, Stas? But like, how did, like, you say in your household, it was as soon as no more juices ran, that's when you knew the turkey was done. It's like right before the turkey catches on fire. Yes. Yeah. You know, you know what's interesting? I haven't spoken to Jeffrey Steingarten in a while, but I think he tried to do one once in a self-cleaning oven, but I couldn't get the interlock off. I think. I don't know. That is not going to end well. No, you have to defeat the interlock before you hit self-clean. That's like, hey, listen, no one out there listening to us. Don't go and defeat the interlock on yourself cleaning oven. At least don't say that I told you to do it. Do you clean your pans in self-cleaning ovens? I'm so lazy that like when I get like an aluminum baking sheet. Like, the other day, I did a bunch of a whole fish, right? And I had a bunch of drip downs and then they got all burnt onto the baking sheet. I was like, to hell with it. I just cook the stuff in the self-cleaning oven. Am I too lazy or is that like okay? No, I think that's being smart. Yeah, right? Who likes cleaning crap off of those things? Not me. Don't do it, don't do it to your cast. Do not do it to your cast iron. Do not do it to your Teflon. Hey, Tim's got a question in the chat room for Chris. He wants Chris to recommend the max capacity container that he would recommend. Oh, yeah, and give us the wad that he bought it. on the jewel. So for the jewel? Yeah. I presume. So, you know, with these things, it's always dependent on how well insulated your vessel is, but with a
+
+[27:43] typical poorly insulated pot, I'd be very comfortable recommending up to 10
+
+[27:49] gallons. So almost 40 liters. If you're using a well-insulated vessel, like a Coleman cooler, then you're going to get away with a lot more. I, I, you know, I personally heated up 70 plus liters in a Coleman cooler with an even lower powered unit. So you're not going to have any problems. Um, you know, at some point how big you need to be. In terms of actual power, the rated heating power is 1100 watts. And remember, over 99% of our power actually goes into the water, which is unusual. The more important thing is like, that's about 25% faster at preheating water than the competition.
+
+[28:28] Right, just so everyone knows, like there are actually lower powered units now on the market. But for years, the industry standard as like as developed by like, you know, Philip Preston's original poly-science models,
+
+[28:40] it's 750 watts of heating, roughly 750 watts of heating power,
+
+[28:43] uh, was the norm. But the other important thing, and people don't think about this, uh, is how aggressive the PID programming
+
+[28:51] is, because you can make, you can make something like laboratory style, which means 0 overshoot allowed, or you can go aggressive, which is kind of better for
+
+[29:01] cooks and you'll get like a couple of tense overshoot, but it'll quickly settle out on you.
+
+[29:05] I assuming you went more aggressive, right? Uh, yeah, we, we absolutely teen to, uh, uh, tuned it to be very, very aggressive. Yeah, which is better for cooks. I mean don't let anyone tell you any different. Anyone that says any different is just wrong. Usually I'm very nice about things like this, but anyone who says anything differently other than other than you should go on the aggressive side and allow the couple of tents overshoot, they're just not correct.
+
+[29:27] Yeah, no, it's a better user. I mean, most people, it's just how fast can I get this water preheated and we set up to make it as fast as possible. And our limiting factor is ultimately down to UL certification. The power cord has to get absolutely huge once you go over 10 amps of power. So that's why you're not going to see any real domestic circulator delivering more than about 1100 watts. Right. Yeah, you're allowed, you're allowed 1500 watts total draw on a plug for normal to do normal stuff. And that's why that's why hair drivers are the AR. why everything's the way it is, right? Yeah, and then it goes down to how thick do you want your power cord and you've got to allow tolerances for not everybody's voltage is what it's supposed to be, but
+
+[30:14] um-ba-dum-ba-dum. So, like, technically speaking, I would, you know, have loved to make it even more powerful and there's no reason we couldn't have made the heater more powerful. It's down to certification agencies. Hey, buy two, throw them in. Okay. Caller, too. Oh, oh, all right. Caller, you're on the air. Hey Dave, this is D from New York. I ran into in the bar yesterday. Hey, nice. How you doing? Well, thanks. Um, so my question is, uh, I still have to say hi to everyone
+
+[30:42] else on the Nastasia and Jack and uh, Chris from, from the chest course. I'm very excited about the jewel. So my question is unrelated, unfortunately, to Thanksgiving or circulation. But in executing the will of a, unfortunately, disused old family friend, I've come across some old bottles of alcohol, like a champagne, a dot bottle of Don Perignon from the '60s, and a
+
+[31:04] takai, like, maybe the fetus variety of takai, like, Noble Rock wine from the '70s. Nice. And I think they're both, I don't know if any, if they're, um, good at all. The wine looks like, and the champagne looks like it's probably flat and might have some sediment in it that may even be, like, quirk residue. Well, I was wondering if you haven't any ideas what to do with it or... Okay, where was it stored? Where was it stored? Uh, I think it was stored in the dark, but it's really been long enough that, you know, at room temperature, but it's been long
+
+[31:36] enough that I'm not confident. But it wasn't, was it in a basement? Was it in a cool room temperature situation? Uh, Probably in a closet, uh, or a cupboard. for probably most of the time, but... Like a high cupboard? Like a high cupboard? Please, not a high cupboard. Please tell me it was not a high cupboard. Yeah, yeah, because a little known fact, people don't think about your high cupboards in your kitchen are much, much, much hotter than your low cupboards are.
+
+[32:03] And in general, high cupboards much hotter than low cupboards. But, um, yeah, well, here's some more questions for you. The eulage on the wines, do they look like fairly normal or has there been a lot
+
+[32:15] of liquid lost? It doesn't seem like there's been any liquid loss in the Takai, and there may be some in the champagne, but I haven't compared it against another bottle to
+
+[32:25] know. It does look like it's pretty flat, though. Well, it's hard to tell if they're sealed, right? It is, yeah, they're both still sealed. You have exactly 2 options. Drink it with some very good friends and then have an experience or sell it. These are the only 2 options. Now, I, uh, my stepfather has a similar problem because he's the owner of some uh,
+
+[32:49] 85 uh, uh, Roman A Conti. And this bottle of wine that he has is worth, I think, it's over 10 grand now. It's like, so it's, it's, you know, to me, it would be impossible to drink it, but on the other hand, for him, since it's not replicatable,
+
+[33:05] it would be impossible not to drink it. So he's put himself in a situation where it's not possible to not drink it. In your situation, though, since you don't necessarily know how the storage is. I don't know what the price is going to be. Chris, do you have any experience with this kind of stuff? Uh, not a lot. I'm actually kind of enjoying learning something here from you, Dave. Uh, but the, so, like, I know, for instance, you know, my my stepfather stuff's been kept, like, in a super temperature controlled kind of
+
+[33:33] seller environment for sense, it was new since 85. Um, and so like his stuff has maintained his value if he wanted to auction except for he did what, they did once have a flood, which put a watermark on some of the labels, which, you know, doesn't hurt the wine, but
+
+[33:47] like freaks some people out. So I don't really know. And I don't know what the market, what year is the, uh, Don Perry? is it vintage or not vintage? Uh, it has a year on it, if that's what you mean. I think it's 62. I don't know anything about years on champagne, but if it's a vintage champagne, there are people who, all they like to do is go drink vintage champagnes, and so if it's been kept in fairly decent condition, you at least have yourself like an amazing party to have with your friends, but at the very least, something like that, you should get
+
+[34:19] like a serious on a file in, and there are, I, you know, I don't frequent them, but there are lots of wine discussions where someone can tell you, 1st of all, on champagne,
+
+[34:28] obviously. Uh, uh, obviously, you know, Nastasia's interest is peaked. But, uh, you know, they don't make a vintage champagne, and they won't put a year on the champagne unless they thought it was going to be a good aging
+
+[34:41] uh, bottle. Uh, the sweet wine. You're probably going to have really, I think you might have really good luck on the sweet wine too, since a lot of those will have very, very long aging potential.
+
+[34:53] It's simply a matter of, uh, the temperature and the conditions in which it's kept. But if you ha if your eulage is good, you know, if the if the air gap in the bottle is good, you have a good shot. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not so worried about the, the, the, the, the tokai, and I think, uh, you know, I'm, I think people tend to overestimate the impact
+
+[35:15] of, of the storage temperature too. I think fluctuations in the temperature that are actually the bigger deal, but I think
+
+[35:23] of Tookai like, is going to probably be very drinkable. Yeah, I mean, the oldest champagne I've ever had was a good
+
+[35:33] bit. I mean, in terms of like actual time since it was bottled to when it was,
+
+[35:38] I I've had them from the early 80s, I think, but I've never
+
+[35:42] had, so that's, and that was last year. So that's, uh, but you're talking a good 20 years older than that. I'm sure it, I'm sure, look, I'm sure it has that. I'm sure it has value. You might want to sell it. Um, And if you live in New York, I mean, there are laws about it, but there's also a lot of wine dealers who won't necessarily pay attention to the law.
+
+[36:03] Like, there are some states where you're allowed to sell the wine back to the same person you bought it from, but nobody keeps
+
+[36:09] records, so nobody knows. You know what I mean? But I don't know what the value is on that. You'd have to go look it up. You know what, though? I look at something like wine seeker or something like that to try to find out. Yeah, you know what else I would do? If I were you. New Year's or whatever is, it depends. Like, don't open this in the presence of a bunch of like, you know, like, like swill masters who are just gonna like, you know, pound this stuff like it. Well, what you do is in a situation like that. Yeah, you need Oh, yeah. Well, that's I tell people that all the time. Your 1st step is to go get different friends. The 2nd thing you should do is buy a backup bottle of
+
+[36:44] decent, but not crazy stuff, whatever you can afford to have, right? And I take Chris's suggestion of mind. Tokai is going to be fine. The champagne has a good chance of being sublime, but read up on drinking old
+
+[36:57] champagne, so you know what to expect and what to get. And then have a backup bottle so that if you have a bottle of swill on your hands, you always have a backup,
+
+[37:05] then nobody's ever going to be unhappy with that. Chris, what do you think about that? I think you should never have the regret that you never had enough champagne in your life.
+
+[37:13] Bingo. Bingo. All right. Well, listen, here's what you're going to do. You're going to decide whether you're going to sell it. You're going to look up the price. You're gonna decide whether you're going to sell it, or whether out of deference to, you know, your past relative, that you're going to drink it and have a good time, and you're going to call us back after the event, and you're going to let us know what happened. All right? All right, now, cool. one more question that's Thanksgiving and Chris related. Okay, okay, on the line. Call her, you're on the air. Hello, hey everybody, this is Steve from Indianapolis. So my question, 1st of all, regarding the circulator and the centrifuge coming out, shut up and take my money. Wow, nice. Thank you. And no problem. Uh, and and secondly, um, I'm a, I'm a med student in Indianapolis right now, and I'm actually involved in a food, uh, kind of like a food education program for not only the med students, but the local
+
+[38:09] community. Um, how, what is the easiest, like, sous vide recipe that you would say to kind of get people on board with circulators because I'm, uh, I'm trying to, uh, I'm trying to say like, hey, it's the best kind of slow cooker for, uh, like amazing meats and things like that. You can do really cheap cuts of meat and things like that. So, um, I'm just trying to, to consider how to present it and I just wanted some suggestions. Chris what do you got? Well, I think a couple things. I think one of the things I I like, people who aren't familiar with sous vide. I don't find it super helpful to call it like a slow cooker, partly because of the slow cooker, you always get the same stewed texture. I mean, that's what a slow cooker does. You get you get stewed food. Um, and and with sous vide cooking or an immersion circulator, you know, you can have just basically
+
+[38:58] awesome uh, food in of any sort of texture and style. For me, usually what convinces people is either like a perfectly cooked piece of fish. So maybe, you know, out here in Seattle, it would have to be salmon, that, you know,
+
+[39:14] you cook sous vide and then lightly pan sear it so that, you know, it's perfect. It's, you know, delicious, it's approachable. And, you know, what what sous vide really does is take away the fear and risk that you're going to ruin a piece of fish.
+
+[39:29] A lot of people, in my experience, are pretty intimidated with cooking fish, which is healthy and delicious. Or the other thing that I think is always great is giving them a pork chop that's cooked at a proper temperature. I mean, most people have never had a good pork chop. Everything they've had has just been ruined because of silly USDA recommendations that
+
+[39:50] aren't scientifically sound. So you take a pork chop at, cook it at 60 Celsius. Don't overcook it when you sear it. finish it on the grill, finish in a pan, and that, you know, you know, people will be a little freaked out, like, is it okay for the pork to be a little pink in the center,
+
+[40:06] but, you know, it's amazing. You never knew pork could be that good. Well, here's an interesting point. If you're going to do 60, 60 is fine. If, like, there's a, there's, there's 2 ways, there's always 2 ways to, well, many, but like 2 main ways is I'm going to pull it right from the
+
+[40:22] circulator. I'm going to sear it, or I'm going to drop it for a while if you see it. I think 60 is good if you're going to do like a relatively quick finish sear on it out of the bath. I would go a degree or degree, like a degree or a degree and a half maybe even higher if you were going to drop the pork chops down to like 50 or 55 and then ride them before
+
+[40:46] you, before you see them at the end. Do you agree or disagree, Chris? Yeah, no, I think that's reasonable. Yeah. Uh, like when I have
+
+[40:54] med students over, just trying to convince people that this thing is really good. Um, I've been doing chicken breast 6263 so that I can, um, kind of not have it be as intimidating. Uh, but uh, yeah, I like that idea a lot. Here's what I wouldn't do. So like some of the special effect textures on things. Like, people aren't ready to wrap their minds around the fact that it's different. So like, one of the classic things people do 1st is like a short rib. And I think short ribs done, low temp are delicious. However, they're not the same as what people expect from an actual braised
+
+[41:30] short rib. And if you go into it thinking what I'm about to have is a braised short rib, then the sous vide one will come up short because it won't have the same kind of intense meatiness that a traditional braise is
+
+[41:42] going to have. Neither will the texture be what they associate. So most of the time, if you're handing someone who's thinking in their
+
+[41:49] mind traditional short rib, a low temp one, and a traditional braise, and you serve them in the style of a traditional braise rather than as something different and new, most people will choose the
+
+[42:00] old-fashioned. And so like, that's what I would not do. Okay, excellent. Yeah. I mean, I've been presenting it as a slow cricket because I didn't necessarily know what to say otherwise, but no, I like this a lot. This is really good. I'll recommend one that we've found is really popular. If you're doing chicken. We have a smoker-less smoked chicken breast on chef steps, um, that's done with souveed and a smoky brine, and uh, it'll, you know, most people absolutely love it and can't believe it didn't come out of the
+
+[42:29] smoker. Is that the liquid smoke? It does use some of the liquid smoke. Okay, excellent. excellent. All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, guys. All right, run out of time, Dave. All right, I got to rip these guys some questions real quick. I gotta get to it. This is from John Baker in Dallas, Texas. I want to get to it before we go out. They says measurement of flour. It has become common wisdom that volumetric measurement of flour is not the most accurate method due to variances in the packing of flour
+
+[42:54] particles. Measurement by weight is the answer to the problem. true. But how much of an impact does the moisture content of the flower have on weight? I'm not a food professional, but I've never heard anybody make reference to humidity
+
+[43:04] in the flower throwing off their recipe. Maybe it's an immaterial difference in the end. Okay, since I don't have time to go too deep into it. Thank God someone else has done it. And everyone, he doesn't get enough props, but this guy, Greg Blonder, has a website called
+
+[43:18] genuine ideas, which I think is quite nice. Do you like this one, Chris? Do you been that to that blog? Maybe I lost Chris. And he says, brilliant, smart things. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so you're going to go look at him. He has one on flower where he has done all of the measurements, and the answer basically is that in the normal range of humidity inside of a
+
+[43:40] house, flower is fairly stable. And if you go into like rainforest. It suddenly starts absorbing more water, and if you go into extremely, extremely dry conditions, it will suddenly give up a lot of water, but that it's actually fairly stable in the range that it's mostly
+
+[43:56] kept. But you need to go look at what he says. Your 2nd question is, temperature of frying oil. Standard procedure for frying is to bring the fry oil up to a given temperature before adding the food. Let's say 350 or a 375. After adding the food, the oil temperature will, of course, drop and rise again as the vessel is heated. Given that the temperature the oil drops immediately after the food is added, is because of the heat energy of the oil using to boil water, phase
+
+[44:19] change, as opposed to a linear heating for the food above the boiling point of water.
+
+[44:24] wouldn't it be more accurate to specify frying parameters on the heat content of the oil rather than the
+
+[44:29] temperature? In other words, 2 gallons of oil at 350 would contain far greater thermal energy than 2 quarts at
+
+[44:34] 375? Best John Baker. You're 100% right. And that's why anyone who has a brain in their head will use as much oil as is feasible when they're
+
+[44:44] frying, to get a higher, better stability, and that you have to jack the temperature of lower volumes of oil higher. And that's why one of the many reasons why frying at home is often not as satisfying as having a professional deep fryer. Yeah, you mean right, Chris? You agree with that? I totally, absolutely correct. And, you know, I generally advocate actually, since you're almost always at home using very fresh new oil, which tends to be more stable and has a higher smoke
+
+[45:12] point because you haven't, you know, abused it yet, run the oil hotter. You know, 200 Celsius is easily doable by a reasonable frying oil like canola,
+
+[45:22] even 210, and you'll be shocked at how much better your fried food is. And just use lots of it. And Aaron has a question that Chris needs to weigh in on because it's a technique. We gotta be done. Okay, well, 2 seconds, 2 seconds. Last year I did a meat glued turduck and breast low for Thanksgiving, and since each year must be a new challenge. I want add a layer of chicharron on the outside of my poultry role this year. I was thinking that I would do 3 birds, meat glued together wearing a jacket of pork skin. Here's the process. I hope it might work. What do you think? Boil scrape and dry the pigskin in the oven, roll the breasts up, wrapped in pigskin with meat glue and let it set in the fridge overnight, low temp the whole thing, then dry the skin as much as possible, and then deep fry
+
+[45:58] it and hope the pork skin is dry enough to get poofy and crackly. Will they already boiled pork skin, have enough proteins free for the enzymatic action of the transcutaminates? Yes. Do you think it will be dry enough after sitting in the bag to get delicious and crunchy and puffy? Crunchy? Yes, puffy no. What do you think? Definitely not. And I would strongly recommend you grind your pork skin so that it's small
+
+[46:17] pieces the size of popcorn kernels. You will be much happier with the results. Sawing through the puff chucharone will not be as delicious as you think. I want to just chime in here with the public service announcement. I saw Dave run through Bushwick to get to this show. He ran 2 blocks and I have it on video. I think Jack's going to put it on Facebook. It's on Instagram running 2 minutes, 2 blocks for the show and it showed commitment. And I'm on the board of directors of HRN and we are now $30,000 towards our goal of raising
+
+[46:46] $100,000 by the end of the year. And if you love Dave, consider, we just got $10,000 from the Mariposa Foundation, which is a real honor,
+
+[46:54] Aaron just pulled that off. So consider giving even $25 membership counts and if we could get all of
+
+[47:00] Dave's listeners to give $25, we'd reach our goal. And huge thank you to Kevin Scott, who actually gave us 500 bucks. Nice. dedicated to cooking issues. Nice. show on the network. Listen, thanks to our guests. Everyone happy Thanksgiving. We'll see you next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[47:28] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with
+
+[0:05] Grow NYC on a pilot project to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at green markets. For more information, visit Christmastrees and Y.org. I'm Greg Blaze, host of Cutting the Kurd. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Uh, joined uh, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or so, joined, as usual, with uh, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. And we got Rebecca live tweeting over there in the booth with Jack Insley, Jackie Molecules, our intrepid engineer. How you doing, guys? Sorry, we're good. I can't believe we're so on time today. It's miraculous. Well, in order to get me here on time, you have to get me flying in from the passport office in Stanford, Connecticut, which we can talk about in a
+
+[1:10] bit, but special guest
+
+[1:13] in the studio today. Harold Muggy. That's right. That's right. He's here. I didn't give you any advance notice because I only want Die Hard fans to be able to call in to 718-497-2128. That is, and I will say it at a reasonable pace this time, 718, uh, 497-2128. Is that even right? Because I can't do it slowly. Is that right? Anyway So calling your questions to Harold McGee. I mean, probably you should keep them to a kind of a cooking related kind of a theme,
+
+[1:51] but you know, it's up to you. You know, he's pretty open. Harold is in town because he is going to do a talk at the
+
+[1:59] museum of food and drink lab on 62 Bayard Street this week on Thursday, right? Thursday. What time is it? And I believe you can still, I don't know if it's probably sold out, but, you know, don't listen to me. Go on the on the Mofad website and look up I think under the program. You can see, and what are you going to be talking about? Um, stuff. Peter, Kim and I, Peter, the director of the museum and I are going to just kind of chat about flavor and then take questions from the
+
+[2:29] audience. So flavor, you're for it or against it? Mostly for it. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. There is an anti-flavor thing going on now. It's kind of like that goes part of the theme of sugar, salt, fat, whatever order that is, plus, you know, the Dorito effect, basically,
+
+[2:48] chiding, chiding corporations on their pernicious inclusion of those addicting flavors into food.
+
+[2:57] So you're not part of the anti-flavor. No, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I was a corporation, which I guess, Stas, we are kind of a corporate. We're an LLC. We're not a mega corporation though. We're not we're not hated yet for our... are in LLC. Well, me, me personally. I have a, but Booker and Dax is an LSA. Booking Dax is an LLC. Yeah. But we're not like a mega corporation. People can't hate us for that yet. We don't have like corporate hegemony yet. You haven't reached kind of that Monsanto level yet, right? We're not, you know, mucking about with whole cultures. yet. Uh, the, so anyways, so the, uh, where are they going with this? So yeah, so you, I mean, obviously corporations want to make stuff taste better for people. I mean, it seems obvious. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, and you would expect them to do that. So... All right, I have a question, actually, that I know you have thoughts on from last week, unless you have something super
+
+[3:58] pressing. I have last week's questions. I have Twitter questions for you. All right, let me tackle this one. This is in from, actually, family member of mine, Brady Huggett. Just wanted us to comment on the whole Aquabest, uh, Aquabest. Is that the name of the corporation? The salmon, the genetically engineered salmon that just got approved and the people who vow
+
+[4:18] to uh vow to squash it. Do you want to talk about that or do you want to leave it untalked about? Do you not want to dip your toes into the water of genetically engineered salmon? Perhaps I should tell people what it is first. It's a salmon that's been, um, I believe, uh,
+
+[4:34] they, they've basically taken, uh, and made it, I don't know whether it's an addition or a deletion of a gene. I haven't researched enough. An addition from fish called the pout. The pout. Wow, it's a nicely, does it look pouty, the fish? Is it named for its look? I've never beholden a pot pout. Yeah. Well, it's like kind of the poorly named. It's pronounced crappy, but written crappy. Which why would you want to name a fish crappy? Anyway, so it grows, it grows faster, has better feed conversion ratio than ordinary salmon, right? And so, what are your thoughts on it? My thought is, I've been following this now for, what, 15 years or something like that, that they 1st put the gene in the fish and began to talk about
+
+[5:24] this. I'm amazed that they're still able to have a proposal in front of the
+
+[5:32] FDA, and I'm a kind of fascinated bystander. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I think it's important to make sure that fish that have been engineered don't get out into the world at large. I can't see how a fish engineered in this particular way is going to be a problem for human consumers. So I want to see what happens. Yeah, there's been a lot of, um, there's been a lot of bad information, uh, out there on it. Um, the, you know, one of the interesting things is that uh, uh, the fear is that you're going to have a, uh, an American
+
+[6:09] cray. one of the fears is that you're going to have like an American crayfish kind of a situation where these salmon get out there, start inner breeding
+
+[6:16] with, you know, the regular salmon, and then all hell breaks loose and you get these fast growing salmon that are clogging up, I guess this is one of the, you know,
+
+[6:25] we lose. Yeah, right? I mean, that's the that's the fear. So for those of you that don't know, what happened is they, um,
+
+[6:34] These fish are sterile. They're only releasing one sex of fish, female, and those females are, believe it's female, and those females are sterile. So they're not able to have baby fish, right? So that's supposed to get around the thing. Stats, when was the last time you saw Jurassic Park? It been a long time. Those were also supposed to be sterile, right? Now, remember, this is a movie written from a book by a guy who's now dead. But does anyone remember how it is that the Jurassic Park, anyone? Harold, do you remember that? Rebecca, Jack, you remember how that worked? been too long. Maybe someone can tweet in how, in a fictional account, the sterility of the
+
+[7:14] tomannosaurus rex, whatever it was, or the, no, velociraptor, I believe it was, in this case, how that was, how that life will find a way, as Jeff Goldblum
+
+[7:22] said, in one of his more irritating roles. Anyways, the point is, is that they're engineered to be sterile. And some of the people who are against this fish. Uh, basically are, they point out a,
+
+[7:37] an, uh, a study that was done that proves, proves that this fish can actually interbreed with regular fish, and so
+
+[7:46] the, the fish was supplied to them by the, you know, by the company that makes them. However, they supplied them with genetically engineered, yet non-sterile fish, specifically for this study. So the study, the study was to show that if you didn't have a sterilized fish, could it interbreed with the regular wild population of
+
+[8:09] brown trout and salmon? Because they're worried about the brown trout, because remember these are being raised inland. So the question is, is can this salmon hybridize with inland, like lake and
+
+[8:21] river, brown trout, should it, like, make it out into the thing? And they found out, yes, it can, if they were, if they were not sterilized. And albeit only poorly, even in that case. And yet this is, you know, touted as being, you know, how, you know, they, that, that there's, you know,
+
+[8:38] there's, that somehow, uh, that it's possible for the ones that they're going to raise to go out into the wild. you read this stuff? Yes, yes. Yeah. So it seems pretty ironclad, but I'm glad that there are people out there, you know, pushing, making sure for the rest of us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but but what I don't like is just like the false, like the falseness of, uh, leaving out important details. Yes, like the fish that they tested that could interbreed only poorly actually weren't the fish that people are actually raising, they were, they were, they had a, you know, whatever, whatever. It's just people, like, it's very hard to get, you know, any good information on either side.
+
+[9:20] All right. So, uh, you want to do some Twitter questions or are we going to do? right. So Nut Milk King wants to know, Dave, any thoughts or info on dry aging turkey? Best duck I had was at EMP, and it was aged for a week. That a different meat, obviously, by curious. Obviously, but curious. I like how I like how Nut Milk King is by curious. That's great. Uh, I'm never Asian turkey, which by the way, like, uh, I messed up the Thanksgiving turkey a little bit. It was still delicious, but I did mess it up a little bit. We could talk about that later. They were heritage breed, Turks, Turkey, Turks, Turkeys, and they were, I thought they were delicious. Did you try it or were you too busy? It was good, right? They're good. Did you try the confit and the breast? No. You didn't try the comfy? No. Comfy was good. Anyway, I can't feed the legs out this year. Uh-huh. Next, well, the problem is, is that it was very hard to arrange them into a bird and I didn't have a bag big enough to do the breasts. And so like I tried to do a traditional cooking technique on the breasts. Next year, if I do a similar thing, which I probably will, I'm going to have to bust out the meat glue. I just didn't have the meat glue with me where I was. I didn't I didn't adequately plan. I thought that just giving it time would, but I didn't adequately plan my
+
+[10:37] equipment regimen to do it that, anyway, my bad. Still delicious. Finished in the tandoor? Oh, yeah, I did one in the tandor, and I didn't end up deep frying the other one. ended up doing the other one in the oven, but yeah, the tandor. Okay, here's the issue with the tandor, right? So I had the bird around the stuffing plug, right, with uncooked breasts, but the stuffing plug was hot. So I was hoping the stuffing plug would cook the breast meat from the inside out while I was going into the tandor.
+
+[11:03] Now, the tandor goes back to, you know, what we've said many times is that you want very
+
+[11:07] high instantaneous heat input, but low average heat input. So the way you do a tandor is in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out. Um, you know, but the cool thing is when it's in, it's getting hit from all sides at once. So I bought a pair of cheap vice grips and vice gripped on the bottom of this, put the turkey on, wrapped it with a stuffing plug, tied it real
+
+[11:29] tight so it looked kind of like a turkey football. It didn't have any bones in it except for the, well, the bones and the coffee because they were already cooked out though, right? But the breast area had no bones. Uh, then a ball of tinfoil to separate it from the next
+
+[11:42] thing, and then a layer of tinfoil in the vice grip, the tinfoil to stop
+
+[11:46] the, the, the intense heat from the live coals from burning the bottom side of the bird.
+
+[11:52] But there was just so much grease that, and the turkey was so large relative society, the size of the tandor. And I so stoked the tandor with colds that it was like, it was like a freaking disco inferno inside of
+
+[12:07] the tandor, which was like... And then when I left it in there. So usually like when you're cooking in a tandor, and you start getting flames off of like whatever grease is in the thing, you, you can, you close the bottom, uh, like air vent a little bit, you damp that up a little bit, and then you put the lid back on the
+
+[12:25] top, except for the little place where the skewers are coming out, and that deprives the enough
+
+[12:32] oxygen usually that you don't get enough, like a large kind of a flames, but not when you have this much grease pouring off of the turkey.
+
+[12:39] So then I pulled the turkey, you know, I had it actually 2 skewers through it, right? So I could do a double grip so the trick to any having a tandor is having a place you can put the skewers to rest in between your firings of
+
+[12:53] the of the tandor that's not like the ground or something else. I have a spiral staircase next to the tandor. I was like putting them on the spiral staircase. But I went to go readjust and it poured hot grease like all over my finger. You could still see the wrinkle marks in my finger from what used to kind of be a normal
+
+[13:08] fingers. That was unpleasant. But it tasted good. It was good. I would do it again, albeit a little bit differently. I would dry the bird more, uh,
+
+[13:19] beforehand, and maybe, maybe not maybe cook it all low temp with the bones in, which is anathema normally.
+
+[13:27] I don't know I got to figure it out, but I would definitely tandor it again because I like the flavor of the tandor. Yeah. I have ambitions to start tandooring. You should you need to own a tandor. First of all, you have a house in a backyard. Yes. So, tandor. Uh, you know, I'm sure there's someplace in in San Francisco that sells them, but the place in New
+
+[13:47] Jersey, ships and the problem is that the shipping charge is a little bit high, I think. Uh, hey, I got to get a tandor. Tandor is the best. I love the tandor. Hashtag vertical grilling. It's the best. You know. It's the only question is, is, is, uh, so like I, when I do steaks, I put the, you know those like crappy fish grills that you can buy or veggie grills that you can
+
+[14:07] buy? I have a bunch of those and, um, those usually have a place where you can, uh, like where it folds down and you put a clip over it to hold it down. And so that's a perfect place to shove a skewer through. So typically what I'll do is I'll throw like a steak or anything like that, you know, pieces that can't be skewered easily and put them in the basket and then put them in the tandor, suspend it over another skewer and close it. And so that's the way you do things that aren't normally tandored. Yeah. Yeah, that's how you vertically grill things like that. Yeah. Anyhow. Wait, but that doesn't answer the question. Dry aging turkey. do you think? You got to play with it. I mean, I've never done it before, so I would do it once. Maybe plan on doing it for longer than is probably ideal and see if that's the case. Maybe check it out as it's going, but I'd hang on to it for, I don't know. 10 days, something like that. Would you, would you salt it ahead of time to stop any sort of anything that's kind of growing on the outside? Uh, I don't know, maybe wipe it with vinegar every once in a while? Trying to kill out every Yeah. Yeah. Just keep it clean. What about, uh, what about choosing a bird that whose meat is inherently darker?
+
+[15:29] Is that going to be good? Like a heritage style bird? as opposed to a butterball? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, of course, butterballs have other stuff. floating around in there. Diacetile and oil. Do they actually put butter in a butterball? No idea. No idea. Haven't looked at the ingredient list. recently. You know how I bet you was trying to dry age of turkey? Johnny Hunter. I bet you Johnny Hunter's tried to dry age of turkey. Maybe he'll ride in. All right. Anyway All right, what else do we got? What else we got? Actually, I got to call it. Oh, caller, caller. You were on the air. Hi Dave, this is Jeffrey from Custom Mesa. How you doing? Uh, better now that I have the sweet Jackie Molecules, uh, ringtone on my phone. Nice. That means that means is member. Yeah. We'll play the ringtone maybe at the break. Except for when people call and I answer at the right time. I instinctively say, Jackie molecules, and then they hang up because they think they have the wrong number. Well, you know what, though? you want to talk to those people? Do you want to talk to people? Do you want to talk to people? No, no. It works out. Yeah, it's perfect. Um, I called in about uh, blanching French fries for a shorter amount of time. Okay. A couple weeks ago. And when I was following up with that. Uh, it seemed as though, so I tried a few different times for the blanch and basically pushed to the, the lowest amount of
+
+[16:58] time, or sorry, the most amount of time I could get, uh, without them starting to all shatter.
+
+[17:03] The theory here was, by the way, the call was about, you know, when you blanch it as long as, you know, I usually do to get the best textural effect in the
+
+[17:14] French fry, the potatoes are so loose that they're really beat up by the end. And so then like kind of getting around this. Go ahead. Right. Um, so yeah, so about 9 or 10 minutes, uh, was sort of the furthest I could go without, you know, a large amount of them shattering.
+
+[17:29] Uh, and so in about 10 minutes, it seemed like the, the starch was pretty well gelatinized, had a decent uh, salt penetration. So then I tried a few different oven temperatures and had kind of some interesting
+
+[17:43] results. So that 300 uh, it was pretty, pretty consistently got like hollow fry. Right. Uh, up at 350. They were a little more sort of dense, but the people that were kind of blind trying them. They liked the 350, uh, and then 400 was my favorite, uh, no hollow fry, pretty, pretty
+
+[18:04] soft, kind of good, uh, you know, pillowy, uh, potato texture, uh,
+
+[18:10] so, so 400 seemed to be the way to go just for, you know, another 10 minutes uh, before frying. Was the 400, was the 400 less time than the than the 3 and change that had the hollow
+
+[18:22] fry? No, they were all. I did them all for 10 minutes just to see what what would happen with that. So that was I was curious. strange, right? So, I mean, Harold, you remember like the problem of French fries, obviously, is one of breaking the starch 1st to get the texture that you want, but also moisture
+
+[18:42] control both throughout the fry and at the crisp surface, right? And usually hollow fry is the result of over drying, at least in my theory, it's of over drying, and so you lose kind of the substance
+
+[18:58] that's on the inside of the fry, and it basically just has this crisp outside. But it's kind of odd, right, that you would have hollow fry at 3 in change or 300 for 10 minutes and
+
+[19:10] then not hollow fry. You know what? I bet you your case hardening it. Is there like a dehydration effect that's happening at the lower temperature? Well, I think the high, yeah, I think the lower temperature is probably more effectively dehydrating the entire fry, and you must be getting some sort of case hardening effect at the higher
+
+[19:28] temperature, and you're probably also, uh, you're probably evacuating moisture at such a high rate at the surface. It may be your, no, I'm not saying it's like searing, where you, there's a fake ceiling of the crust. I'm saying you're probably doing something to dense up the surface of the fry. There's got to be, right? It's the only explanation I can think of. Right? interesting. Yeah, so, am I, am I, uh, dumb or, or just, uh, masochistic
+
+[20:00] to after I, I go through all these steps to make a French fry, uh, adding an additional stuff and that feels
+
+[20:06] normal? No, it shouldn't be. No, you shouldn't be. No, that's good. That's good. I mean, 1st of all, like there isn't normally a drying step anyway. So you're just having that drying step take place in an oven. Right? Uh, and by the way, like, this is how everything in the world happens through observation, like, if you had asked us, I presume, Harold, I mean, if you had asked
+
+[20:28] us what would happen when you jacked the temperature, I would have said more hollow fry. That's what I would have said, you know, not knowing. But this is why it's very hard to answer questions from a theoretical
+
+[20:39] basis and you need to actually do the test and pay attention to what goes on. You know? This is why you should always beware of people who tell you that they have the answer to something unless they actually run the specific
+
+[20:50] tests that they're telling you about. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So what about, I was wondering then about getting better salt penetration with that limited blanch time? Would it affect the, the way that the Pectinex is able to affect, uh, you know, the starch and everything if I added salt to that bath? If I do that, you know, the hour long hecton X ultra. Well, I'm very, I don't know how much the salt is going to affect the enzyme, but just on a theoretical
+
+[21:24] basis. I am suspicious that in the absence of the high blanching temperature that you're
+
+[21:29] going to get too much more penetration than you will just by upping the salt content in your blanch water. What do you think, Harold? Um, yeah, I'm, I'm not actually, actually clear on this part of the system. Oh, so they like the real like hardcore French fry technique, right, is so you know how the modernist folk, they do the ultrasonic bath to mess with the surface
+
+[21:57] of the fry. So like the one that, you know, we do is soak it in, um, in a pectinex bath, which, uh, you know, kind of disrupts the surface of the fry. But, uh, and that's our 1st step prior to, so you know
+
+[22:13] how like you, you rinse the starch off. Normally, in water, you soak it. Some people soak it for a long time to extract excess soluble sugar from the potato. Then you do your water blanched step with salt, to put salt in and do the pre-cook on the starch, then the question of drying, which we just addressed, then fry one, then sometimes freeze, depending on what you want, and then fry two, right?
+
+[22:36] This is how you make a French fry. It's just how God would make a French fry. Anyway. So the point is that, um, on the enzyme soap thing, I don't think, for instance, just soaking a potato and salty water, I don't think is going to get appreciably more penetration than just upping the salt content of the hot blanch water because it's so much faster, the hot
+
+[23:00] blanch water. I would just jack the salt level in the blanch. I'll give that a try. And thanks thanks to your recommendation. I'll now be finishing fries in an outdoor Cajun fryer. Oh, yeah. Let us know how the Cajun fire works. And they, I got to give a kind of props to them. I called their owner the night before Thanksgiving. We had that thing delivered. We're setting it up and it wasn't, it wasn't lighting. So I called them, weren't in California. I called them like 715 in their time to the, they just give like the home phone number for emergencies. So I called the owner and he answered the phone, kind of talked me
+
+[23:38] through banging the regulator on the tank and got it working. So. Did it work well? It worked well? It worked well? Yeah, nice. It's beautiful. Good to know. Thanks for that. And you can buy the, you can buy the Cajun fryer at Bass Pro shops, although we're not affiliated. Yeah, come on, now. I got a bunch of questions in the chat for Harold if we want to start getting some of those. All right. Shoot. All right, we'll go with the most recent one first. How about this? Interested in hearing Harold's thoughts on the bean liquid egg substitute Aquafaba. Right. Yeah, I've gotten more emails about that than anything I can
+
+[24:18] remember, at least in recent years. So it's the liquid from a can of kickpeas whips up into a nice meringue. And as far as I can tell, of course, there's protein in there and starch, but apparently there's also a fair amount of
+
+[24:38] saponons, which are molecules that are good at
+
+[24:44] foaming, so that you've got stuff in there that wants to
+
+[24:49] foam and then stuff in there that's going to stabilize a foam, like the dissolved starch and protein. And the combination is this, you know, unexpected boon to vegan meringue makers. So for those of you that don't are not aware of the kind of genesis of on food and cooking, Harold's, you know, 1st book. It was as a result of him studying the fart inducing principle of
+
+[25:17] beans. And so it's part of that, this opponents as well? Or is that simply the polysaccharides that you don't digest it bacteria? I don't think saponins are flatulogenic. No. Well, that is a fantastic word. That's a very good word. That's fantastic word. You like that word it does? Yeah. Even Nastasia likes that word, and that's so unusual for her to like a word. She has like her happy styles face on it, you know, unusual situation like this. So I got some more in here we should get to, right? right, let's see. Our old friend Elliot. Hey, Harold, can you talk about fermentation of herb stems and milk? Herb stems, sorry. Herb stems in milk. Which herb? No, no, no. He here. He can probably answer that. I know for a fact that, Harold, you've done work with amaranth stalks, but not in milk. No, no. And there the aim is to make something as stinky as possible. I think that that's not likely with with this one. I mean, in milk, you would get a lactic fermentation. Maybe the herb stems would be carrying, naturally occurring lactabacilli,
+
+[26:23] lactococci into the milk, and so they might help seed it. But I don't see what what the connection would be between the herb stems and the milk. I bet you that's the word style. Hey, it's lactic cockeye. But the, the, well, I mean, one for one. Yeah, well, some, I mean, some, like, if I guess it depends on the herb, like, cartoons will break it, right? I mean, it's like depends on... Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um, But I'm thinking Herb Herb's that I would think of would be more like, you know, parsley and things like that.
+
+[26:56] And I'm not sure that they have any active, um, active
+
+[27:00] principles and act, cartoons. Yeah, they've got a lot of tannin. I think that's what causes the coagulation when you're doing them a blanc. Well, is that the, is well, what's the, what's the rentering thing in, in the rest of the thistle family all about? Isn't carts? That's in the flower. Yeah. The cartoon flower. Yeah. And that's a separate, that's an actual enzyme. That's right. Yeah. That is almost identical to the enzyme in calf stomach. Yeah, crazily enough. PS, all you people that hate genetically modified food, all your cheese is made with genetically modified
+
+[27:34] Renit. Caller. Caller. You were on the air. Hey, Dave, I had a question for you on the turkey in a bag from Thanksgiving. We had the debate and didn't know if it was, it started out. we thought it was a cheap gimmick. where you cook the turkey in a bag? You talking about the oven bags? I kind of like large, I don't know. It's a baking bag. Fold all the moisture in. And then we concluded that it might be like a poor man's comedy, and we can't decide.
+
+[28:02] The science is going on inside the bag. Okay, well, every, and Harold will, you know, can, you know, every 20 years or so, uh, 20 to 30 years, as far as I can tell, bad cooking makes a
+
+[28:17] big, uh, a renaissance. So a bag paper bag cooking was big when I was a kid. Uh, it's not paper anymore, but bad cooking. and by the way, bad cooking, not like sous vide bag. We're talking bag, like a large on papillote style bag is big now. I have a book from the early, early 1900s from Alexis
+
+[28:43] Sawyer's, like, son or grandson on paper bag cookery back when paper 1st started to be uh regular paper 1st started to be non-toxic so that it could be used uh in in kind of
+
+[28:55] cooking. So this suddenly comes back again and again. Usually things that come back again and again have some merit. I would say, although I don't necessarily know what that merit is. Have you thought about this at all, Harold? Well, I'd actually look at it the other way around. If things kind of come and go, they they go because they don't work so well. Right? And then come back because people forget. Well, I mean, you know, specifically the question here is like, is it like a poor man's combi, right? Like, are you keeping the steam in? I don't know. Like, I used to, I mean, the paper bag chicken. that I used to make when I was a kid, my memory of it is that it was good. It doesn't steam the bird in the sense that
+
+[29:46] the, the, the, the skin gets crispy. So it's not. This is a different kind of bag, I'm guess, we're talking about. This one's much more plasticky, and I have a, my mother-in-law loves doing it, and I have to keep convincing her, if you're going to do the bag, at least open it
+
+[30:00] up so the skin can get crispy, because while the turkey's cooked. Her skin's never... We're missing the best parts. I think this is the, I think it's nylon that these baking bags are made out or something like that. You know, some polymer that can take high temperatures. And I think the thing about them is that they, you are essentially, because they are impermeable, unlike paper, you are trapping the steam and you're not getting evaporative cooling, so the
+
+[30:31] temp, you're essentially steaming or boiling, the bird. You do get, I think, some radiant heat through the bag so that it can kind of crisp up in spots. But because the humidity is so high in there, it's limited. So they're not, they don't, you don't poke holes in this bag. No. You, you, I think you are supposed to leave the end, uh, that you tie
+
+[31:00] off, not not tied off tightly. So you are, you do lose some, but I think the effective surface area of whatever opening there is is so small that it's negligent.
+
+[31:12] So you don't have the, you don't have the ability to lose enough moisture to have a, what they call high relative humidity, whatever that means at elevated temperature, but elevate it to the point where it's browning efficiently.
+
+[31:25] Yeah, yeah. That would be unfortunate. Yes. I know you can cook a paper bag chicken. and have the chicken be crispy. But you have to use the old school big paper bags and, you know, you have to put plenty of butter on the skin of the chicken. But again, maybe I was just wrong. Maybe you're asking me to remember what stuff tasted like when I was like 8 and 9 years
+
+[31:49] old. That was like, you know, 10. That's when I was, you know, doing my paper bag work. And it is true that using the modern silicone sealed parchment paper on
+
+[31:59] Papillote style, you get basically exclusively steamed results out of things like fish. Do you like unpuppy oat cooking in general or do you hate it? I don't, I mean, I like it if I want to cook fish and not have my house smell
+
+[32:15] fishy. So I'll cook it on papillote and then let it cool down so that, you know, it doesn't, the moment I open it up, it doesn't just fill, fill the space with fish smell. Well, what about the idea of that? Like, you know how like when you make an excellent like dashi, it's all about that moment, that aromatic
+
+[32:35] reveal? Don't you like that aspect of the on puppio? Oh, yeah, yeah. That's nice in somebody's somebody else's house or restaurant. What do you like? What do you think style is about your house filled with fish now? No. No? You know what I detest? Uh, the, the oil overheated fish oil is the worst. That is the worst. That stuff never, except for when I'm when I'm doing sardines in a pan, I don't mind it. Because there's just something so, I mean, I don't like it the next day, but there's just something so marvelous
+
+[33:04] about sardines cooked on a high heat. Yes, yes. You know? Yep. And I have my favorite places to go to get that. San Francisco. Really? What is it? Well, actually, it used to be Encanto, which is now closed, but coxcomb does sardines also. So Chris Constantino's place. Nice. Yeah. I'm sure he can cook a sardine up. Stas, what are your thoughts on sardines? like them a lot. Do you also like canned sardines? Um... Okay, James Beard, right? Among many had many faults. One was preferred electric. No, I'm not talking induction. I'm talking crappy resistance electric range tops to gas. true story. Also thought that canned sardines were far superior to fresh sardines. Now, he's from the Pacific Northwest, right? So you presumably he could get good sardines. So this is just craziness. Like, I think that they're not the same product. I don't think they should be compared. I don't think that they're similar. Not only do I think that they're like different. I think they are dissimilar products. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I love canned sardines and I love aged canned sardines. You know, you can get vintage age. Yeah, we've tasted them together, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right. You couldn't do that to a sardine sardine. And, uh, yeah, they're they're they're just, uh, they offer different experiences. Do you pick out the weird calcium bonelets from the canned
+
+[34:41] sardines or you eat them? That's part of the part of the deal. Yeah, yeah. You and Booker both. What about you, Stas? Do you like that? Do you mind that, you know what I'm talking about? The backbone? The back, you ever, do you pull the backbone out of your canned sardines? Or are you the fancy folk that buy the skinless boneless? I don't know. Scamless boneless, I guess? I have to admit, I like gooseballs. I don't like I don't texturally because it's gritty. It's not that it's crunchy. It's gritty because the bones have dissolved, and all you have are these little kind of calcium bitlets left. Not a fan of the calcium bitlet. What about in the engineering booth? Rebecca, Jackie, we're going to weigh in on the calcium bitlets. I got nothing for you. Nothing? You guys don't eat sardines? Don't like sardines. What? No, I like sardines. Wait, Rebecca, you don't like you don't like any form of sardine? don't think so. Maybe. Uh, Caesar salad? What? No, no, no. No, I don't even like that that much. That is an anchovy. Ah, I knew it. As soon as I was said, I knew you were going to. That is an anchovy. I apologize. All right, so so, okay, so you're saying you don't like anchovies either. Not particular. I don't like little slimy fish. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. She also doesn't like bubbly water. Oh my god. I can't say that on the edge. Oh, geez. Spoiled. But here's my point. A good anchovy is not slimy. Like, look, here's what you don't want to like start your life in anchovies. Go buy a can of salted anchovies. Just straight salted anchovies. Maybe you should make me some. Stas, you like anchovy pasta, yeah? Yeah. Do you make it with the with the crappy can stuff or do you make it with the with the salted stuff? I make it with the salted stuff. You make with the salt stuff, Harold? I do too. Here's another thing. The white anchovy that like, you know, like the cured white anchovy. They are not the same thing. I do not like people saying that they are better than salted or salted and then away old anchovies. I think that they are different. And frankly, I am a weirdo, but I could eat more salted anchovy than I
+
+[36:48] could, the cured. I don't know Everyone loves them. I love them. They're good, but they're not the, they're not the same product. They shouldn't be compared. You agree? No, it's this wonderful bounty. This cornucopia of different fish products. Yeah, they're all different. Yeah, yeah. Hey, hey, people, is cod the same as salted cod? No. No, they're different. They're different products. Another question here in the chat room. What do you got? What are some is an easy one? What are some of Dave and Harold's holiday gift suggestions for an aspiring home cook? Already have a circulator and a good set of pots and pans? Longtime listener, 1st time question. Well, if you have money, you should wait for us to release the centerfuge. Boom. Exactly. That was the setup. All right, right. As a nice setup. But what do you think, Harold? What do you like to give people probably food related? A hypodermic needle style thermometer. For, you know, you can stick it into any size piece of
+
+[37:47] meter fish. You don't see a hole afterwards and you can check like 30 different places in 30 seconds. Right. And by the way, so there are things on the market that are referred to as hypodermic that really are
+
+[38:00] not. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, if it looks like it could put a hole in you, without leaving too much of a mark, then that is what... what we're looking for. However, I don't know whether I said this on the air or whether I've just said it to other people. Don't ever use that thing as a candy thermometer, don't ever put that into deep fry oil because you will ruin it. Yeah. Very quickly. And they're not cheap. They're cheaper than they used to be. They're under 100 bucks now, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like between 15 and 75. Yeah. Yeah, but then you're still into it for a thermocouple, thermometer. So you need to buy the probe and the thermometer. Or do they come in the package? You can get the package, but the probe is plug-in so you can buy replacements. You can buy one on a wire and all kinds of nice things. You will be tempted to use it as a candy thermometer. Don't. You'll be tempted to test the temperature of your deep fryer over it. Do not. Do not. Not do that. I've ruined more than two. Uh, yeah, all right. That's good. I have to shout out Renee Casper, who just made a donation. Looks like all the way from Norway. Norway. That's awesome. I like that. Never been in Norway. Me neither. Me neither. I love to. No? Yeah. Been to Sweden. Never been to Norway. Never really been to Denmark. Yeah, I've just been to Copenhagen. Like, that doesn't count. Crack on them. It's like it's like the Jersey of Denmark. Just kidding. It's not. All right. Holiday question here unless you have one. Chat room is live here. So Harold and Dave, can you advise on the minimum AV, the minimum ABV for aged eggnog. The Dr. Lancefield recipe seems to work out at about 15% ABV, but other recipes on the web aim for 20. Well, if 15 is good, 20 is gonna be fine. I mean, how low do you want it to go? That's the question, right? Yeah. I mean, that one's the one from the Rockefeller, right? The one that the one that is being quoted is the one from the Rockefeller University, that's the
+
+[40:03] Lancefield one, the one that they actually did a challenge test on. So I think that's the one that they were referring to. So this doctor at the Rockefeller, she had this eggnog recipe and they made it every year and someone was like, hey, man, is it safe,
+
+[40:17] Mama? And they're like, well, this is what we do for a living. And so they did a challenge test. And they looked at the kill rate and how long it took to kill off the stuff with a certain level
+
+[40:25] of initial bacterial load and a certain ABV and et cetera, et cetera. And it was, you know, on the order if it was aged for, I forget what it was, like a couple of
+
+[40:36] weeks, that it, you know, becomes safer and safer. Same like mayonnaise, same like using eggs in any cocktail where you're not actually killing the salmonella quickly. So the answer is, is that there are 2 separate problems. One, what is the ABV required to maintain bacterial static, uh, uh, that bacteria stack nature of it, right? And to, uh, like at a given ABV, how long does it take to become safe if it were contaminated at the get go?
+
+[41:07] And those seem to me to be uh, 2 different things, right? So you could say, I know that within 3 weeks or 2 weeks, whatever it is, 15% ABV is safe. However, once decontaminated, perhaps it could be diluted down to 10 or
+
+[41:23] 12 or less. But think beer doesn't get nasty contaminants in it, it gets, it can get ruined. You can have yeast growth, you can have all these other things, but you're not getting anything that'll kill you in
+
+[41:34] it, and that is down that's much lower. I think even if you were to crack an egg into beer as long as it was pre-pasteurized. I don't think salmonella can grow at those alcohol percent. What do you think, Harold? Uh, I'd want to check. I would check. I mean, this is all just theorizing in my head, but... Well, I don't know. Beer is different because there's beer is pretty lean by comparison. carbonated, though. Yeah, yeah, that too. Both of which I think work against bacteria in a way that an eggnog mix does
+
+[42:07] not, right? You got all that protein, all that fat, higher,
+
+[42:11] lower acidity, so I think you'd want to... What I don't understand, though, is why, why go lower? Than 15? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, especially because the other recipes cited are higher. Going higher is definitely going to make you safer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.
+
+[42:34] I don't know. Maybe it's just always wanting to play with with the border, right? See how far you can go. But I'm not, I just don't think that, I mean, alcohol contributes to the flavor of the
+
+[42:49] drink. And I think if you go too low, it's going to be like a milkshake, right? Yes, now you've put Khalis song into my head. I got the milkshake song going through my head, which is, it's not unfortunate. guess it's fine. Scott, do you like that song? You've always hated it or just now that I'm mentioning it? Me too. Wow. Wow. All right. So, Stas, why don't you give us a Twitter question so they don't feel left out here? Uh, someone wants to know if they should crank the TS 8000 all the way up while they're using the
+
+[43:18] steers ball. Yes. The answer is always yes. I think they were scared. Oh, don't be scared. There are things in life to be scared of. is not one of them. Um, Brunt Grupton wants to know, ever use birch syrup and a drink, so for all I've
+
+[43:35] made is maple leaf variation, it tastes flat. Excuse me, what was that name? Brunt Gumption. Oh, that's funny. Awesome. Awesome. So, the only birch syrup I've ever had was flawed. And I still not yet received a good birch syrup. It was acidic. And I'm assuming that it wasn't the nature of the birch syrup itself to
+
+[43:58] be overly acidic. It tasted acidic and like matter. something had happened to it. Um, But, and I said this before on the air and someone pointed out a good birch syrup supplier. I just haven't had it yet. I would love to have it, but I'm, presumably it's going to taste different from, uh, maple syrup. I don't know. I have not had any experience with a birch syrup that I can say, yeah,
+
+[44:25] I now I know how birch syrup is supposed to act. But I'm interested in it. Very interested in it. I'm interested in all sorts of tree exudates and saps and there are various, uh, you know, things. Like someone called in before. Remember, and they were going to try to get liquid embar, uh, styracafula, uh, resin, like sweet gum resin. I wonder whether that happened. I want taste that too. Plenty of stuff I want to taste like that, but yeah, any Harold, you had any experience with birch syrup? I had some, just a taste years and years ago, and I just remember it tasting sweet and not maply, more kind of more in the direction of, um,
+
+[45:01] just sort of brown, brown syrup, caramel, caramel flavors. Yeah. I'm gonna give a shout out to Crosby Molasses. Crosby molasses in terms of brown sugar. People think when they think of molasses, they think of, uh, like that, I believe the brand is actually grandmas, you know, sulfur,
+
+[45:24] black strap molasses, and, um, you would never dream of putting that, for instance, on pancakes. Never. You would never think to do it. Because you're like, why the hell would I want that monstrosity on my pancake,
+
+[45:38] right? Uh, but, uh, there is much more in the world of molasses than that. And so for those of you that are fortunate enough to be in
+
+[45:50] the in New England area, get go get you some Crosby's molasses. That stuff is delicious. Delicious. Anyway. Okay. Dean Mussen wants to know any chance of an episode on pots and pans, Dave. So much bullshit. Advice out there on the consumer end of the market. What kind what specific kind of BS are we referring to? That's the question. So like, yeah, we could do one. I mean, uh, you know, uh, Harold and I, we used to teach, uh,
+
+[46:21] and, you know, Harold also independently, uh, used to do. There's a bunch of different techniques that people use to measure like how, what do you, what do you want in a pan? That's the thing, right? The answer is yes, we can do one eventually. But the question is, what do you want in a pan? What do I want in a pan? Usually I wanted to not scorch. And I, you know, I mean, it depends on what you're looking to do. Are you storing heat for a long time? And then you need to just so cast iron, right? But, you know, cast iron is good at certain things and bad at others. Um, Most Teflon pans will die. Most non-stick. I never had a nonstick pan that didn't die. I'm just going to put it out there. Harold, have you ever had a gnostic pan that didn't die? I've got one that's going really well. I'm not, and I don't know how long it's going to last, but I'm, you know, not intentionally abusing it, but I'm not babying it either. And I've had it now for a couple of years. What, what, are you, do you want to uh, push it out there? What brand you were using? Let's see if I can pull it back. Uh, there are a couple, and I might get them confused. So, but I can, if you have that program, include me
+
+[47:37] in, and I'll be waving it at my end. I'll let you know exactly, and I'll abuse it between now and then. All right. And also, like, you guys, like, you know, people who are interested, if you want to set up, you set
+
+[47:47] a particular time to do this, uh, like, like tweet on in or email in, uh, email is probably better for
+
+[47:54] this. Email in, like what particular, uh, uh, horse hockey. You want us to uh, investigate uh, beforehand because, you know, there might be a pan that maybe, you know, I haven't used Harold
+
+[48:08] Has or, you know, uh, when I haven't used it. I can, I can look into, um, you know, whether it's just one of like, uh, so for instance, I was at Wiley's uh,
+
+[48:18] house, uh, over the weekend, Wiley Dufrene, and he has his grandpa for some reason, even though his grandpa wasn't a cook. Oh, that's not true. Maybe his grandpa was the one that owned a donut factory, but I think that was the other side. But the, um, a real set of old school copper pants, like full, thick, full,
+
+[48:34] thick, old copper tinned out. And I was like, I was talking to him about it because he was going to get him restored. And back at Jean George, They used to have the full copper set and back, and they probably still do, but if you walk into 59th Street and look into his kitchen, you can see in, it's like all the gleaming
+
+[48:48] copper that Wiley said he used to have to polish. And I was like, is it that much better than cooking like on an all clad, which, by the way, is what everyone cooks with? You know what I mean? Like 99% of people that I know, uh, at home, uh, and even professionally, for some, if you have the money, they're using all clads. basically. What do you cook with the homestyles? Do you have all class? Crap, no. Really? You never stole any all class from anyone? Anyway, what about you, Harold? Like for pots and pans, stuff like that? Mostly all clouds, but I collect lots of different things and mess with them. And as you're saying, it depends on what you're trying to do. if I really want to sear something inside. And of course, I'm going to finish it with this here's all, but I'll start with a cast iron pan and I'll put a layer of aluminum foil over it to reflect back the heat that it's otherwise going to radiate as it's heating up and get a nice thermal mass there.
+
+[49:41] Yeah, I mean, unless something is garbage, there's always something fun you can do with it. There's always some application you can have with it. Like there are places for the old school straight black iron pans too, not cast iron or black steel pans. You know what I mean? You know, there's a place for most anything, really. Like some, like, for instance, like we all think that it's good to have your pans be completely even. It's not always the case. Like, uh, like in a, in a large, like, let's say you're doing like a, a, a
+
+[50:11] Kamal, for instance, you want there to be a, a, a gradient or a, or a plancha. You want there to be a gradient across it. You know what I mean? Like, it's about the gradient. Uh, and so there you might not want hyper even, uh, you might not want a big ingot of aluminum that is gonna like, you know, or copper that's gonna spread up anyways. Like, so there's, uh, you know, it all depends on what you're shooting for and uh, figuring out what you can do with it, but there are some pans that are just straight garbage. Yeah, everything I have. I have the best collection of garbage in Brooklyn. Well, you know what? guys should do is just like do what I did. Go to thrift shops, go to thrift shops. People get rid of fantastic pans. So, like, what you'll do is, is that 9 times out of 10, they'll throw away garbage. And you'll be like, you know what? That is garbage. So you know what you don't do? You don't buy that. But like I've gotten like amazing sabatier, like 10 inch like carbon steel sabatier knives in thrift stores. I've gotten, uh, 60, 70-year-old polished
+
+[51:14] cast-iron Griswold pans in thrift stores for like 2 bucks. So, you know, search and you will find. You know, 11 person's idiocy and throwing something away can be your game. Yeah, me and Styles are going to scavenger hunt one day. That's what I'm talking about. By the way, a little over a mile from here is a restaurant. I got to look into. You ready for it? D apostrophe, oasis. Oasis. Is it, what is it? It's the delicious. It's oasis. You know, it's like duh, oasis. Oasis. I wonder what the hell. It like a bar and restaurant. What the hell do you think they serve over there? What made you look that up? What makes you find that? He was probably driving past it on his way. Yeah, I was driving from Stanford because I'm going to China next week to help build the
+
+[51:59] centrifuge and I would live tweet it out except for the entire freaking country of China bands Twitter. You know, uh, you know, and I don't have a special, like, non-sedition Twitter account that allows me to, like, you know, to, you know, uh, go on the, uh, those, they have no
+
+[52:15] sense even, we call the, the, our, the factory in China and we try to joke around with them stars. They can't play, right? No. Yeah. anyway. Anyway, point being that, yeah, I think it was in MassPeth or something. I was like, the Oasis. Yeah. I'm going go there after the show and maybe, you know, knock back some brewskies at the Oasis. Anyways, uh, are we going to get ripped off the air? We're gonna be ripped off. pretty soon. All right. It heralded any last, any super pressing herald needs in the chat room? Oh, let's see. They've been answering a lot of their own questions, which is great. And Tim Thraves is also offering everybody in the chat room, gin and juices at Booker and Dax, because he's going to be there on Monday. Somebody said, be careful what you offer, Tim. If Dave has time, thoughts on Brooke's superiority burger. I imagine those are good thoughts. Well, this, you know, I've had his burger, but I have not yet made it to the actual
+
+[53:07] restaurant. I hear only excellent things. And so the expert on this, and Harold, have you gone yet? I haven't. right around the corner from where I'm staying, but it's always been mobbed when I've walked by. So the expert on Brooks Headley and all things, superiority burger at cooking issues is, of course, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Stas. Does this person live in New York? That asks this question? That's, that's a good, good question. They did not specify. That's good. I really hate when people write into the show and they're like, have you ever like sharpened a knife, Dave? Or like, you know, and it's like, just look it up or go or do it. I don't understand. Yeah, the person wants to know. The food is good there. So the superiority burger is good. if you live in New York, go. What is your favorite thing on the menu there? Uh, uh, the Yuba, whatever that is. You like Yuba, huh? I didn't think I would. love you. And on that note, We're done. We are done. So listen, I probably won't be back next week because I'll probably be in China and during transport, but when I get back from China, more cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit heritagefoodsusa.com. I'm Mike Telemeco from Food Talk. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you. Pre-recorded. From the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizzawilla in Bushwick, uh, uh, uh, Oakland. How you doing, Stas? Joined as usual, Stas, how you doing? Good. Yeah? Yeah? Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez people, you can't call in to speak to her while she's wearing it, but
+
+[0:54] she is wearing, for the 1st time this year at the radio show, her marvelous Christmas hat. I think we got a tweet us or something that her hat, because the hat is like... You and I hear with it. yeah Yeah, really? Yeah, there is, strangely. Who did that? I don't know. Me? It is a it is a fantastic Christmas hat. It is completely unrelated to the phenomenon of the ugliest, ugly Christmas sweater, of which you also have several. Yes. Yes. But this is actually a legit, awesome Christmas hat. It turns her entire head into a festive Christmas
+
+[1:32] tree, totally covering the sourness that comes out of the mouth attached to the hat.
+
+[1:37] Whoa, wow. Wow. Wow. Yikes. Oh, and join Christmas. Great Christmas. joined in the booth with our good buddy, Jackie Molecules. What's up? Jack Insley. How's it going? It's great. I'm in a really, really, really good mood because the cooking issues listeners have gone like above and beyond with their donations to the network and it's awesome. Nice. It's so awesome. They really represented so well. There are too many of them for me to even shout out. It's crazy. But just know that every time those come in where everybody in the team is like super, super stoked and we can't thank you all enough. Awesome, awesome. So I just came from a, by the way, so we're recording this on
+
+[2:21] Monday instead of on Tuesday because Nastasia has to go up to Boston tomorrow to get a... Why are you flying out of Boston? Don't get me started. Like, you know, I thought you were going to Boston to go to Boston. getting a flight. From Boston? Let me guess, $50 cheaper. No, a lot cheaper. Like how much cheaper? Like $150 cheaper. How much is it costing you to get to Boston? It's $30 on the bus. So, I'm going to do this math here. What's your time? So $120 By the way, if you want Nastasia to throw away 4 hours of her time in each direction. No, I fly back into New York. Oh okay. All right, all right. whatever. I don't even want to don't even get me started. Don't get me started. So you'll enjoy this, Nastasia. So, earlier today, I had to do a series of videos for Vox for the Museum of Food and
+
+[3:16] Drink. right? It's part of our contractual obligation with Infinity. And, you know, food science demos. No one asked me to just sit around and talk about, I don't know, something. It's always like some sort of tech and science-y stuff, right? So they said, hey, you know, yeah, let's, you know, we're going to do liquid nitrogen. I'm like, really, really? Jack, you know what? I'm like really? You know how many times I've done liquid nitrogen demo, Jack? Yeah. So many. Many. And so I figured I was going to mix it up a little bit. Stas, you're going to like this. You going to want to pay attention. You already you already heard? Well, Peter ruins everything. He's supposed to come on the show, Peter from Kim from the museum of food and drink. He's like, oh, yeah, I'll come on the show. No, I'm busy man. Not busy. He sucks all of my time this morning. He going to suck all of my time this afternoon. He's too busy to come on the radio show with us. instead, just calls and ruins the surprise for you. But you folks here haven't heard yet. So here's what it is. So I'm like, you know what? Liquid nitrogen, as we all know, is amazing, but it has 3 main safety issues.
+
+[4:09] One, it can it's cold burns, right? You could get cold burns from it, and that could either be from ingesting it, which you should never, ever, ever do, or from, you know, getting it poured
+
+[4:18] onto your pants or some other thing, right? Uh, you know, you can get it on your hand, you know, because the Liden Frost effect, it'll just roll off. won't do anything. But you know, there's Cole Burns is there. Asyxiation is a big one. Remember, Mirvold almost killed himself in his car with liquid nitrogen. And so we have all these safety rules against asphyxiation. But the other one is Jack, and he guesses, you know this one? Nope. Explosions. Oh yeah. So he can do the explosion noise again. So, yeah. Yeah. And in fact, years ago, and we always talk about it. There was a German cook who took liquid nitrogen in a sealed container home from the
+
+[4:50] restaurant and it exploded in his girlfriend's bathroom and like took off one of his legs, one of his hands, most of the other hand, put him in a comb,
+
+[4:58] et cetera, et cetera. Because the pressure just keeps building and building, right? But I've never actually done the demo. Because I've always wanted to do the demo, right? So I take, I swear to God, the name of this stuff. I'm like, listen, we're going to blow up, you know, we're not in front of a big audience. We're going to blow up a plastic bottle with liquid nitrogen to show how dangerous it is, right?
+
+[5:22] So I take this thing. It's called harmless water. You heard of this? Harmless water. It's some sort of one of these coconut waters, but it's in a non-carbonated bottle, right? So it shouldn't be a problem. You know what I mean? So anyway, so I'm like, eh, meh. So I get, I'm like, I'll get a Cambro, because Cambros are made out of, you know, polycarbonate. They're strong and that stuff's not supposed to shatter. It's supposed to bend. It's made out of polycarbonate. Okay. So, okay, I get a big Cam, bro, I get this little harmless water, right? And some liquid nitrogen, and, you know, I have safety goggles and all this. So I pour the liquid nitrogen into the harmless water container, and I screw it, and I quickly dump
+
+[6:00] it, quickly, into the camera, and then I back off and go down, right? So that my eyes aren't over the top of the thing. And I was like, nothing happened. Like literally nothing happened. So I like tapped the thing. Nothing. slosh it around. Nothing, nothing. Finally, I swear. And then like, it's nervous. Do you ever light fireworks when your kid's does? I never let them know. Jack? No. Really? I feel like we've all been raised on every planet. Yes, they were around. I never lived them. Okay, okay. So anyway, so anyway, if you light a firework and it doesn't go off, you're in a dangerous situation.
+
+[6:35] Like, that's what you you don't want that. If you light a firework, you want it to go off because it does, you have to go dispose of a dud and it might not be a dud. It might come on and like shoot you in the eye or burn them, whatever. You get me. So, I'm in a fire, I'm in a dud fireworks situation here, right? We're talking like a minute and a half later. And all of a sudden, part of this is these harmless water bottles are, A, obviously, not harmless. And B, much stronger than, for instance, Fiji water bottles, which I know I can blow up with a
+
+[7:02] measly like 110 PSI. Because I've done that. I've held a Fiji water bottle and exploded it while I was carbonating in it like, you know, anyway. So all of a sudden this bottle starts freaking growing, like growing and like starting to look more like a watermelon.
+
+[7:17] I'm like, and it was, when it finally went, it
+
+[7:22] shattered, the, 1st of all, the bottle like disintegrated like a balloon. The Cambro freaking shattered and sent Cambro pieces everywhere and it was the loudest. It was like shooting off like 3 or 4 shotguns all at the same time. Thank God they got it. I was like, we're going to run a test, but you're going to film this because I might never do it again. You know what I mean? And the video, it's horrifying. But so again, no one out there needs to try this. The video is horrifying, but kind of hilarious because what you see is you see me looking at it, trying to figure out what's going on. Then you see the explosion and then like a 2nd later, I'm like, oh, and I fall over. Like that would help. Anyways. So keep your eyes out for that video. I don't know if they're going to actually put that section of it in there, but, you know, you know how I like to do the I like to do the what not to do in a semi-controlled environment. Very important. Very important. Although, Jack, do you know how many times, and I've said this before, and I've told people not to do this. You know how many times I've done demos where I'm like, absolutely never do what I'm about to do. And then they leave out that part and just have me doing the bad thing. It's happened to me so many times. Every time I do it, Nastasia sits there and she shakes her head back and forth. how many times is it going to take before you learn? You know? Yeah. It's because nothing really bad has happened. Well, I'm going to edit an episode of this show, Dave, and just things that you say not to do, but I'll take out the disclaimer, you know? Yeah, yeah, Dave's top 10 tips for the year. Look who's back. Oh, yeah, it's a Satan's little hipster. Santa's little hipster. The, uh, you know, we, we, uh, for those of you just uh, tuning in for the 1st time to our show, we enjoy poking fun at the friendly uh, staff of
+
+[9:00] Roberta's. as does everyone, right, Jack? I mean, it's all it's all love. All love. Um, I have been really hurt. What do you mean? That's why my wife doesn't trust me anymore. Yeah. I've lit myself on fire. It's been a while since you really hurt yourself. It's been a while since I really damaged myself. Yes. Yeah, unless you count slipping with the with a mall and shoving it through my toe or any of those other
+
+[9:24] things. I wasn't cooking at the time. It's been a long time since I've injured in the kitchen. Is that true? Didn't I slice myself open recently? That was, yeah. But I was cooking at home. 2 or three. No, that was when that was in the basement. I made my Christmas cookies yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Do you make Christmas cookies anymore, Stas? Or were you ruined that one time that we tried to make all those Christmas cookies for the trees? My parents do. make any. Oh my god, what kind of Christmas cookies do your parents make? Sugar. Just sugar? And fudge. Do you like fudge? Really? For real. Do you actually enjoy eating fudge? Jack, fudge? Yeah. Really? I do. small doses. There you go. Small doses. And they see you've actually hit a thing that I like it. Like, I can have small doses, but I would never be like, I'm going to tuck into this giant block of foot. You know what I mean? But I've seen people do it. Like, I could eat an entire tray of brownies. Yes. But I only want like a little bit of fudge. And have we had this conversation? What kind of brownies are you guys? Are you guys the dense brownie people? Are you cake brownie people? Dense for me. Dense, dense, dense. I like them both. I like them both N-committal, but nuts or no nuts? Um, I like nuts in a brownie, but I would always choose not nuts. Okay. Like, I don't mind it. I don't mind the taste of it, but the problem is, is that they can get a little
+
+[10:44] soggy, and to me, a brownie should be almost uni textural. I don't really need textural variation in my brownie. So like no chocolate chips. A lot of brownies have like chocolate chips in them. Yeah, not mine unnecessary. Yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like chocolate chips. And I like brownies, but I don't need them in the same sitch. What about you, sis? Yeah, I can go either way. You know what else? I'm not a huge I like it fine, but I'm not a huge fan of it. not a huge fan of the hyper, like, solid block of chocolate poured on top of the brownie thing. Yeah. Or the frosting eat stuff. fudge on top of a brownie. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot lot. There's something about a brownie, even a dense brownie that allows you to eat almost an unlimited amount of it.
+
+[11:28] And I don't know what that is. You know what I mean? as opposed to like fudge, which fudge is self-limiting. You're like, you eat a little bit, you're like, okay, I'm done now. was good. Now I'm done. So anyway, so that kind of leaves me in. So the cookies that I make, I always make 3 cookies. I make sugar cookies because the kids like to use the, we use the gun, the spritz gun. You like those? I've never used one. You know, the secret, right onto the aluminum pan. Because otherwise you'll pull up the parchment or whatever. Anyways. Um, and the dough has to be the right temperature. But yeah, they love the gun. They always make the same damn rosette, and then they try to make the Scotty dog. We have Scotty dogs, rosettes, Christmas trees, but all the shapes always end up messed up. rosettes, it doesn't really matter because they if they bleed, they bleed in the circles. So who cares? Anyways. Um, So I make those, I make the almond. Remember the riturellis that I make, I make those. I burnt out actually my next to Mattic. like, the motor came back on, but I was trying to grind all the almonds in my nixtomatic, next to maw maker, and it was rocking, and then all of a
+
+[12:27] sudden it stalled and went, poof, and smoke came out of the back, and I was like, no, because
+
+[12:32] when's the next time I'm going to go to Mexico? And I would give up my corn grinder just because I was trying to be a bonehead and making almond cookies. That sounds like some stupid crap I would do, right? It is, yeah. And then I make the, I make these cookies that, like, theoretically, they're not good, but they're like my favorite cookie and everyone also seems to kind of like them. Is that, is it these cookies that are like my great great grandma's recipe from like the 1800s? They're like a, you know, like black and white cookies aren't really cookies. little cakes with icing. These are like that, but they're chocolate and they're made with clabbard milk. And so you make a clabard milk and you put this chocolate icing over the top called bonbons, but they're really dry.
+
+[13:10] So you have to drink something with them, but you keep eating them and eating them and eating them. You know, cookies like that? Do you like those Italian hyper-dry, like vanilla cookies with the egg? That is what my grandma makes. Sicilian, yeah. I love those. you love those? You just keep drinking and drinking like water with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you still want more. Weird, weird. Anyway, that's what I did. Nice. Oh, and I got back from China. We haven't talked about China. Oh yeah. Centrifuge. We have a lot of stuff to talk about. That's why we don't need collars. I saw you said that Chinese takeout in China tastes like Chinese takeout here. Oh, yeah. Well, also, when I said that, I was quite disappointed because I was supposed to have gone to this, like, awesome Sichuan restaurant where this, where the waiters know how to, like, they can do that mask trick where they change
+
+[13:51] their, their opera masks, like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And instead, the meeting ran late because it turns out it takes a long time to explain to people how to build a centrifuge. And so instead, I got like this little thing of Chinese takeout and I was like, I can't believe this. And then when I ate it, I was like, I cannot believe this. This tastes like I walked across the freaking street. you know, to like the local Chinese takeout and, you know, got there, you know, local, it was
+
+[14:21] like, it's crazy. It was comforting for me to hear, though. Yeah? I think so. All right. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, um, I mean, I had a lot of good I had a lot of good, good, interesting, interesting food on there. Like, I think I said also on the Twitter. I had some really cool steamed bun varieties that you don't get over
+
+[14:39] your, or that I have never had before. So I need to do some investigation on that. I'm thinking, I don't really have any time, but, you know, one of the things I'm interested in is starches. So like being over there really made me think I need to up my starch game. So I want to, like, I'm going to start categorizing. There's, I have a couple technical books now on Star Trek. I need to read to get a handle on it because you ever notice that people, they say the same. If you look up people's descriptions of different starches and what they're good for and what they're not good
+
+[15:08] for. They're always extremely vague. You ever do that? You probably don't do this. I hate starches. What? I hate the sound it makes. Oh, oh, oh, but you love starches. You like noodles. Oh, you mean like star? yeah. Yeah. So but anyways, but like most of the, most of the, you know, popular writing on using different variety of sorts, it's like, you know, you got, you got your sweet potato, you got your your water chestnut, you got your
+
+[15:35] Caltrop, which is the other kind of water chestnut, which is a, they're entirely different species. You got, there's a zillion different starches. You got your tapiocas, your potatoes, and not even to mention your modern or modified starches. Anyway, I want to go through that before I really get into the kind of like bun thing. I want to go through kind of a starch, the starch extravaganza. And there's actually, there's an interesting book from 1919, I think, that has like these lunatics just took pictures of like 500 different starches. It's on the
+
+[16:04] internet. Maybe I'll post a link to it so people can see like this like start, that person didn't give a rat's behind about cooking. Anyway, uh, look forward to hearing more, or don't, to hearing more because remember, you know, at
+
+[16:16] Clefs who writes in sometimes, uh, on the Twitter, he's from Japan or it lives in Japan. He came up with this interesting problem. You ready for it? I'm going to try and tackle this, probably not over the break. I won't have time, but he, I think it was buckwheat, either buckwheat or rye. wants to make something, the texture of fresh mozzarella made out of that with the flavor, the flavor of, I forget whether it was rye or buckwheat, texture of fresh mozzarella. And I was like, you know what? That sounds like it would be good. You know what I mean? And I think I know how to do it. It's like a mixture of like soy milk, cashew cheese, uh, LBG, kappa, and
+
+[16:49] like I got to figure out how to get the, the, the, the flavor of the buckwheat without having too much of an additional starch. Anyway, I'm working on it. Just so you people know, I'm working on it. Is there any way to set up like a, like a, like an open source like where like you're like, this is the thing you have to do to include the
+
+[17:07] information like, I'm going to come up with like standardized starch recipes to test out the different stars things and then, you know, uh, do them and
+
+[17:15] then I, there's no way I could have other people. I don't know. sure that exists. I don't know how to do it. I'm just terrible communication with people. That's the thing. What are you doing for Christmas does? Going home for 2 days? Two days? Two days, huh? Long way to go for 2 days. out to LA? Well, not really. Covina. Land of Good Burger. What about you, senor molecules? What are you doing for the holiday? drive to Long Island for the night? Yeah. That's it. All right. All right, let's take some questions. Hey, Dave, Nasasi, Jack, and the rest of the crew. It's just us today. Just us, Alex, from the Bay Area up near where you went to college this does. You have any love for the Bay Area? I hate the Bay Area. All righty. What do you really think about it? Merry Christmas Bay Area, people. Nastasia hates you. I have a question regarding pressure cookers and induction cooktops. I had a fagor duo earlier. Yes, yes, I'm aware that they don't make a great stock as I read from your
+
+[18:07] cooking as great of a stock as I read in a cooking shoes climber, but I was thinking of maybe getting a giant mason jar of sorts and sticking the bones and trapping all of that within the lid if that was a possible method of retaining more
+
+[18:19] flavor. It is. In fact, modernist cuisine does that all the time. They were the 1st people, I think, to, you know, demonstrate that to me is the idea that if you don't have a sealed pressure cooker, you can just seal things inside of
+
+[18:31] something in the pressure cooker and it's, you know, same, same, same. Um, Unfortunately, I also live in an apartment that has a rather terribly old electric stove.
+
+[18:41] I was wondering if buying a single separate induction top would be
+
+[18:45] advisable since it may offer better controls. And if so, are there any recommended brands? Uh, yeah, they're awesome. I love them. I don't have any, like, kind of brands. I have had some dye on me, but I think they just get better and better. The main problem with induction cooktops, frankly, is the inexpensive ones. I mean, you could buy really expensive ones. How much was the, what did we end up selling ours for us does? 800, 900? Yeah, but that's a real one. You know what I mean? like 220 or whatever. doesn't, you know, you need a separate. The ones that go into 110. The problem that people have with it and it a lot depends on how old you are and how good your hearing is because they make this horrible noise.
+
+[19:23] Does the noise bother you starting? Yes, I hate it. Yeah. Jack, you ever, you know what I'm talking about? Nope. Yeah. So like every inexpensive induction burner that I've ever used just goes... Yeah, no, I do know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so like, if you're like me, like an old fart that can't hear worth spit
+
+[19:44] anyway. Like, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't bother me so much, but, you know, Nastasia like can't stand that. It's like hearing an ice cube that's like on metal. Or no, remember that they dry ice on a hotel pan? Yeah, that's horrible. Man, I used to love turning on the ultrasonic homogen homogenizer and watching everybody run. And, you know, there's got to be some benefits to have listened to too much loud music in your headphones for
+
+[20:11] years, and it's, I can, I can be around things that are unpleasant constantly. I mean, look, I do it every day. Oh, boom. Uh, uh, if so, what are recommended brands? My other question is in regards to the instant pot and all the other electric pressure cookers that were on sale recently from Black Friday. I don't know the instant pot. Do you, stars? Jack, have you heard of the instant pot? Nope. Hmm. I don't know the instant pot. But I have used electric pressure cookers. In fact, I know the designer of the Cuisinart electric pressure cooker. And I think they are convenient and they're good and you don't have to, one of the things you have to worry about, although it's not as big deal with an induction top, is
+
+[20:50] just remembering to throttle the throttle it down so it doesn't, you know, doesn't scorch or overpressurize.
+
+[20:59] My issue with the electrics, I think they're very convenient on, you know, mind blew up eventually, not exploded, died. That's more, you know, didn't explode because I've had that happen too, as stars, members. It wasn't around Christmas time when we blew up that pressure cooker, right? We had a stock fountain. Awesome. Good times. Um, So the problem is, is they are a slightly lower pressure, so you'll need to recalibrate your recipes, and I really prefer to cook at 15 PSI, uh, then I
+
+[21:25] think I forget what they, though, a lot of those run. They run like seven. I don't know why they run lower. I think part of the problem is that they're not actually judging pressure. They're actually controlling the temperature and they're controlling the temperature a little bit higher, and I think that's really the reason. And that's why I was able to take my electric pressure cooker and fool it into getting a higher pressure by just altering the sensor so that it was wrong in the temperature and
+
+[21:48] inject it up to the normal pressures that you want to use. Now, um, again, that voids any warranty, but it does work. The other problem with the electric pressure cookers, frankly, is, is that a lot of times,
+
+[21:59] like, uh, and, uh, you know, I use Coon Recon, uh, but it was a gift. didn't have to pay for it. And it's a good pot, though. So the good thing about a good pressure cooker pot that's not like electric kettle is usually you can get the pot itself up to really high temperatures really quickly over a normal sort of a
+
+[22:17] stove, and so it allows you to like, you know, it allows you to saute the onions 1st or if you want to do a pre-seer or like brown the meat beforehand or something like this, that's a huge
+
+[22:27] advantage, whereas I always found that with my electric pressure cooker, I would have to brown the meat or do the onions somewhere else because it was just taking for freaking ever.
+
+[22:35] And who wants to sit around for a whole point of the pressure cooker a lot, not always, but a lot of the time the point of the pressure cooker is I can have something done in like 15, 20 minutes.
+
+[22:43] And so who wants to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the onions to freaking sauté so that you can then have a pressure cooker thing done in 20 minutes and it's like doubling the freaking time it takes to make something. Who wants that? Do you want that stuff? No. You don't have a pressure cooker, do you? Why? don't click that way? You don't do braises? No, I don't. Do you don't like braces? Usually one for one person, so... Oh, me, me, me. This, by the way, Stas is like, like trying to do some sort of like Christmassy blues crap. Because, nostalgia, every day of the week,
+
+[23:15] nostalgia's like, I got to get home because I'm cooking for like 30 people. in my house. What do that take? Like... That's what I'm saying. The pressure cooker is 20 minutes, 20 freaking minutes is what I'm trying to tell you. It seems like a lot of work. seems like a lot of work. If any listener wants to send Nastasia a Secret Santa gift. No. No. wow. No. Wow. Wow. Wow. Uh, yeah. Okay. Let me see here. Got a question in 3 related questions. Uh, and we're supposed to have the questions from last week, but like with this whole blowing things up at the thing, I, you know, where I'm all just
+
+[23:51] combined. So these are the questions I have. One of the amazing things about low temp cooking has been being part of the online community that has put in so many hours working on and sharing techniques and ideas. The technique has been largely ignored by the cookbook publishing world and they're saying are there about 4 books. Is that true? I don't know. There's the Thomas Keller. There's the original one Roka book. There's modernist cuisine, modernist at home. What do they have now? They also have they have modernist in the small cafe, modernist in the bar. Modernist in the bar. Modernist in the kidding. And yours may be. Well, no, I don't have Kenji's book, has some stuff in it. I'm sure the ideas in food guys have some in their books. Well, what about, uh... A couple.
+
+[24:36] Yeah, I'm saying, ideas and food. Oh, yeah. I don't know. I'm sure there's more, but you're right. There's not as many as there could be. There's also some European ones, but... Wow, the Roka one's a European one. There's that weird German one where the temperatures were like twice as high as they should be. Remember that one? No. Anyway. It's a long time ago. Anyway, the uniqueness of the term, um, wait, wait, wait, wait. ignored by the cook publishing, the uniqueness of the term has allowed the online community to connect and build a body of knowledge that we can now benefit from.
+
+[25:07] I agree that sous vide, as a word, is a low quality description for low temperature cooking, however,
+
+[25:12] is impossible to Google low temp techniques and temperatures. That's true, I guess. Is it worth giving up the benefit we have received from the term in order just
+
+[25:21] about accuracy? I don't know. I never say it. But again, yeah, you're right. Like I have benefited from Google search analytics with things like cooking issues as one word or like Booker and Dax. Yeah, I mean, look, it's too late. I've been saying this for a long time. It's too late to go back and, you know, not have had relations with the dog on this
+
+[25:44] one. It's like, you know, um, I just think
+
+[25:49] it's it's bad because it's not, it's like not accurate. It's less important now, I guess, because people know it all, but it was really a big deal when restaurants were
+
+[26:00] getting, uh, you know, finds and shut down for using sous vide and people were confusing the 2 techniques because low temperature cooking with a circulator
+
+[26:09] had no actual regulations on it. It was just a vacuum machine that had the regulation. So it was dragging an entire set of techniques into like
+
+[26:16] a, like a kettle of nasty hot water when it didn't need to be. And I think, you know, especially when I was talking to Philip Preston back in the
+
+[26:26] day and other people. I was like, why are you marketing a Why are you marketing a piece of cooking equipment that can be used without a vacuum machine and you're hanging the name of it
+
+[26:38] and the name of the technique on this other much more expensive piece of equipment that you don't need to invest in right away?
+
+[26:44] So it just doesn't make any, doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying, um, you know, it would be like only having the word for sunglasses be driving glasses so that you felt that you had to go buy a freaking automobile just to use a pair of freaking
+
+[26:58] glasses. And it's not the case. That's not really a good analogy, but I'm coming up with it on top of my head. You don't need a vacuum machine for a low temp cooking or for a circulator. So why would you tie the terms together? But again, I've lost. So whatever, you know, you can't, turns out, not only can you not win them all, you can't really win any of them. Do you know what I mean? can't win. Um, Okay. Uh, two, does Nastasia hate rabbits? No? I mean, well, to eat. pets are eating. Uh, it's fine. eat too? What are you done? You have no thoughts when we? I haven't eaten it enough. I bet it's fine. will eat it. I got a rabbit sausage once from Heritage Foods is one of the best things. I made like a pasta with it. was so good. It's a strong plug jack. It's good. Thanks. Just working that right in there. You didn't even have the question ahead of time, right? Nope. Nice. Um, So there. No, Nastasi does not hate rabbits. Alive or dead? Unless they're served with biscuits, in which case she hates that. Ooh, like a like a rabbit sausage egg and cheese on a biscuit. Sounds good. Does, except for no biscuits. No biscuits. you're crazy. She really is straight up nuts. It doesn't make any sense. How about Yorkshire pudding? I've not had that. What is that? Well, it's not really a biscuit. It's like when you take when you do you like prime rib at Christmas time? Jack, do you like prime rib at Christmas time? I think I might have prime rib for Christmas time this year. So what you do is, is when you cook the prime rib in traditional way, or if you do, if you do low temp for insurance and then do a roast off on it. You get the drippings into the pan, right? So you have these fat drippings and the thing. And then you basically take a, um, what we used to call like a Dutch baby mix, which is like a thin pancakey batter, whipped up with a bunch of eggs and you dump it into the pan with the grease and it just puffs up into this like beef
+
+[28:49] grease. Sounds good. pop over. It's like it's like one giant popover.com. So you like pop? Yeah. So you like popovers. I do like pop. So you're not a total enemy of quality. Jack, you like popovers, right? Is there anyone that doesn't like a popover? Hard to find. What's matter? Isn't it the same share you've been using for like a billion years? or somebody big sat in it? Did somebody big sit in Nastasia's chair? I can't say. Wow. You've literally sat in this chair for almost 200 episodes. blown out. It might be this one. It's usually here and this one's over there. Donate to Heritage Radio today and help us buy new chairs. Yeah, Nastasias, Nastasia's butt. Well, thank you. Back to rabbits. That said, the online community has failed me completely when it comes to rabbits. This has evolved from, by the way, from James 5 on. So I think that's probably Jameson with a five. It's like that's the password. Anyway. I bought a rabbit at Union Square over the weekend. Went to stew the saddle, want to stew the saddle later, but I'm 1st looking to low temp
+
+[29:56] confit the legs. Online temperatures and times are all over the map. Blog commenters complain about pasty on every almost every site I have found making any recommendations. I saw a forum post claiming that modernist cuisine calls for 66 degrees Celsius for one hour. That's hi. Other sites were doing tests around 60 to 64 Celsius, but all with an ongoing conversation about
+
+[30:18] time and claiming that too long and the meat goes pasty. What do you think about the word pasty? Don't like it. Don't like it. Do you like it? No. What about like pate a choux? No, don't like it. No. We know what a pasty is? Yeah. Are you all of a sudden you're from that area of the country? Where were you from? From Long Island, but I went I went up to the upper peninsula this summer. Yeah, Michigan, and I had like a traditional pasty. some meat pies? Yeah. were they good? was really good. What were the crust like? it crust flaky or what? It was a little bit flaky. like oily, like exiting oil? Oh, I love a pot pie. Okay, stars. Yes. pot pie? like pot pie, yeah. Okay, so you like, hate biscuits, but like pie crust. No, I don't like the crust of a pot pie. What? Oh, man. The best part. No way. Yeah, you break it up. No, you know what? Well, 1st of all, I like a traditional freaking pot pie. Here's what I don't want. I don't want you to take a hotel pan. Throw some crumbly crust bits on top of the pot pie mix and say that
+
+[31:23] you've served me a pot pie. That is garbage. Garbage. Pot pie. I remember when I was a kid. I used to put myself on fad diets when I was a kid. Why? Because, no, no, no. Like, literally, like, I would do, I would, like, not eat all day. I used to, you know what I used to eat a lot of when I was a kid? Steakums. You remember steakums? Steakums are like, they're like fake cheesesteak meat. It's like pulped, pulped beef that they spray onto a piece of wax paper and then free
+
+[31:53] solid. So bad. Yeah, so you literally what you have to do is you have to take it apart frozen because otherwise it just disintegrates it back into meat paste again and you stick it on your on your electric skillet because invariably these are made with electric skills from the 70s.
+
+[32:09] And then they kind of shrivel up and they solidify into these kind of like cheesesteak at things. Anyway. So I had everything like exactly sussed out. I was like, X number of slices of American cheese, X amount of sautéed onions, X number of steakums on this particular
+
+[32:24] roll. With mayo and ketchup was like right at this number. I forget what the number was, but I had it right dialed in and it would be all I ate all day. Because I was an idiot. Anyways, how are I even on this? What are we talking about? Popeyes. So I remember I looked up, like, how many calories were in a pot pie? And I was like, oh my god. And you know what? then I realized calorie counting for the birds. Crap on that. It was all done. I was like, you know what? And you know, have you ever read the book Catching Fire? No. How cooking made people human or whatever. It's interesting, but they, you know, they talk about a lot of things. You know, one of the things that's 100% true is every calorie counting mechanism that is used is complete garbage. And, you know, the, you know, this person actually has uh, Rangum, I think, is actually has real data to back it up. Whereas I always use this simple thought experiment. Have I said this one before on the air? I don't know. If you take uh, Jack, you can do this over the holidays. If you take a gallon of oil, right? And you calculate how many calories we're in a gallon of oil, you gain a good amount of weight, right? If calories were actually calories. If you could actually absorb all of the calories that you eat in an equally potential way, right? Swallowing a gallon of oil would be a problematic. However, if you swallow a gallon of oil, you just crap a gallon of oil out. You know what I'm saying? And now he says it in the book in a much more kind of... Actually, what your, like, smoothie and juicing thing. I think juicing, though, you're gonna absorb a lot more. So, like, I actually absorb less than, I guess, the average person because I wolf things
+
+[33:58] down. Stasi says that I'm inhuman. So, like, all chunks of, like, you know, anyway, his main point is that raw food diets are literally, like, you know, even a very rich Western city dweller can barely survive on a raw food diet in
+
+[34:13] terms because they have to eat so much more because the foods, until you cook it, the food's not really available to your body, so they have to eat so much more.
+
+[34:20] So his point is, is that, and this is why how cooking made us human, is that there's no way that modern humans could have existed based on a raw diet because he says chimps have to spend
+
+[34:32] like, like almost a 3rd of their day chewing things because they're eating raw, raw
+
+[34:37] food and they have to eat so much of it and they have to chew the hell out of it. How the hell do we get on this? Pot pies. The detour was from pasty. That was my fault. Oh, yeah. All right. Well, no, it's always my fault, Jack. It's never your fault. Oh, Miko's pasty. Yeah. Anyway, if time is so important, doesn't that mean that they are cooking so
+
+[34:54] hot that you might as well use an oven and not really low temperature? Why would the rabbit be unique in requiring such a specific time requirement unless we
+
+[35:01] were getting the temps wrong and do you have any suggestions on time or temps? Furthermore, even traditional confit recipes do not seem to agree. I've seen people insisting that you keep the oven under 210 degrees and others calling for 350 and even 375. Times vary from 2 hours to 10. It is a time, if the time is such a factor on the low temp, Why is there no talk of pasty in the oven methods? for your help? Uh, Jameson. Jamie 5 son. JV 5 on. 5 on. Anyways, here's why. You don't notice the pastiness in a piece of meat when you simply overcook it,
+
+[35:33] right? So the classic pasty meat that you get is tenderloin, any kind of tenderloin, if you cook it for too long, even without overcooking it tends to go pasty, and that's because the muscle doesn't actually have any real structure of its own. That's the problem. So, uh, things like beef tenderloin are always described when they're cooked too long as pasty.
+
+[35:54] Um, and I haven't done a lot of rabbit, low temp, but I guess rabbit has the same kind
+
+[35:59] of of an issue. Anything that, like I say, is like very low in connected tissue. I think that chicken, especially if it's vacuum bagged and cooked too
+
+[36:08] long, goes kind of pasty or fibrousy. It's almost a fibers like become almost separated so that when you eat it, you get all this liquid at once, but then it turns into like a mush of fibers in your mouth as you
+
+[36:19] chew it. And it's because the meat doesn't have too much structure of its own. That's the real problem. So that's what they're talking about. And it doesn't happen in traditional cooking because you just usually undercook the inside and overcook the outside and overcooking it just makes it
+
+[36:35] hard, so it doesn't make it pasty. That's why it really only happens in these situations where you can get large pieces of meat that are all the same cooking
+
+[36:42] temperature throughout it that you really notice the phenomenon. Um, Anyways. So the trick is, is that you want to minimize, uh, also, I think duck can get pasty. Duck can also go livery. So some the 2 faults that you get with certain kinds of meats by cooking them too long, even at the proper temperature is a fibrousness or
+
+[37:01] pastiness. Sometimes like I say, it's more fiber, sometimes it's more paste. The worst also is like things like shrimp. sometimes have an enzymatic reaction in them at low temperatures where they just turn to almost literally a paste that's completely unedible when you cook it for too long. Um, So those are the ones that are really kind of time limited. And it applies to the lower time, lower, you know, part of
+
+[37:23] the of the temperature scale, like where you're not going all the way to a braise, but you're in like kind of the lower tip. And it's usually meats that are low in connective tissue. Um, on the paciness. On the livery side, it's usually, um, like duck can go livery. If you cook it too long, things like, especially really terrible are like cuts of beef that like don't have a lot of fat or structure, like
+
+[37:46] I have round, and then they tend to go livery and nasty when you when you cook them too long. Um, and so that's why I tend to not really cook things like tenderloin, low temp, uh, unless you're doing like a Wellington or something like
+
+[38:01] this and you need to just cook it through really quickly, but I try to keep all of those times on things that go
+
+[38:05] pacy under an hour. And you can do that in a couple of ways. So if you have something that's thick, you can, you have to figure it out, but you can basically set your water bath a little bit higher than you actually want the center to
+
+[38:17] be and then pull it a little bit early before the thing gets up. Or, you know, you could do, you know, any number of things like that, but it is problematic.
+
+[38:27] It's best to try to keep pieces of things that go pasty in ways that you can cook them in under an hour. I've never really noticed any piece of meat going pasty in less than an hour. Anyway, did that answer that question or not? A little bit. When you describe that shrimp turning into paste, it was really sickening. Oh, man, you know what? I used to do that as a demo when I was teaching at the FCI. I would do that as a demo and then all of a sudden one day I wasn't able to reliably make the disgusting pace anymore, but it was so
+
+[38:55] bad. And, you know, for them, you've been to one of my demos. If I make something on purpose, it's crappy, I make you eat it. The point being that you, well, you're supposed to know what happens, right? You don't want to just take someone's freaking word for it. And so, you know, I used to enjoy watching people put it in their mouth and then everyone would spit it out because the texture was just like repulsive. Uh, but, you know, alas, I was not able to, hey, you know what I had? not repulsive. So, uh, I'm not going to name any names because that would be rude, but it's a 3 star restaurant, Michelin star restaurant in Tokyo called Jiro.
+
+[39:29] Nice. Not going to mention who it is though, but maybe it's Jiro. Anyway, so Nastasia and I had, I believe, it was good. I had a good time. But Stas, was that the worst the worst dish you've ever had at a Michelin starred restaurant in your life? Really? Yeah, yeah. The single worst dish I've ever had at a Michelin starred restaurant. was this mantis shrimp that we were served that was pissed. It was basically somehow like it was cooked manta shrimp, and it turned to kind of this granular paste, and it was just
+
+[40:06] vial, right? Remember that? You could tell by the look on her face that you remember it. Like, yeah. Also the most expensive. But anyway, so the point is, is that here in the US, we
+
+[40:18] don't, I don't really see live manta shrimp that often. How do we describe what a manta shrimp looks like. It looks like, imagine like a cross between a lobster and a centipede, but big. You know what I mean? Is that accurate? Yeah, it's kind of like a C centipede. Anyway, um, But, okay. Pasty? It had like no... Yeah, it was because it had been cooked and then frozen or something and then thawed and then it was just
+
+[40:41] like, it was like Pat Giro, huh? Yeah, yeah. Jiro dreams of pasty manta shrimp, apparently. But the, um, Sunnyhoo. So, and I've bought manta shrimp frozen here in the US and they're just freaking awful. Like, one time by, because I used to, I once tried one, I was doing, uh, you know, like a ciapino, and so I buy a bunch of stuff to throw into the ciapino. I'm like, ah, put them at the shrimp and. Why not? Wretched. Gretchen. Um, Terrible. So in China, and apparently it's like only been the rage for the past, I don't know, a couple of years or something, I
+
+[41:14] went in Hong Kong, I went to one of these places where you buy, you buy the fish live and then they take it and they cook it for
+
+[41:21] you. And in fact, you can go next door to the boat and buy it from the boat and then they cook it at the restaurant. It's a really weird situation. You can never do that in the US. So in the past couple of years, like very large manta shrimp, like on the order of longer than a foot long, like big manta shrimp are all there live. And, you know, they're like 3 inches across and like over a foot
+
+[41:42] long, these manta shrimp and they're like kind of all flopping around. It's very like, you know, prehistoric looking stuff. And the here it was freaking awesome. Now to gauge whether or not you're going to like this, right? You know, you're familiar, like a salt and pepper shrimp. They're cooked twice, right? So they're they're fried up and then fried again so that they get the they're super crispy on the outside. And when the shells are thin enough, you can eat the shells, right? You familiar with this shack? Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you always see people peeling it and I'm like, you're losing all the flavor. Yeah. So these thin shelled trip, right? The mantis shrimp, even though they're huge like that, the ones that I had, the shells were thin enough that when they did the
+
+[42:23] double the double cookoff like that on them, you could just eat the whole damn thing. That was awesome. It was like hacked up into pieces and served and it was just freaking. Freaking really good. That's some other... someday we'll talk someday we'll have time to talk about the interesting food stuff. Anyway, have a question in here from Steve that I don't have an answer to. So I'm hoping that I'm hoping that the internet's of people at the heritage radio can hook us up on this. Hello, everyone. My name is Steve. I just discovered your podcast recently and I love it. This is going to grow stars out, so I'm going to look at her face. I've been, and what's your face? You have a neutral face? do it again. Because I read it like when, like, a week ago. And you were like, uh... Yeah. A big fan of the cooking drama known as Hannibal on NBC. So Hannibal actually was a cooking show. It was about cannibalism and cooking. Jack, you familiar with this show? Not at all. Now can I watch TV? I guess cooking because he was a Hannibal, Hannibal a Hannibal. Sure. Listen to you, Jack. I don't watch TV. It's true. You don't like TV? No, not really. Nothing. No? I don't I don't have cable or a TV. I have a projector and I'll watch like movies. Do you have Netflix? No. I know. I'm sorry How do you make, you know, how do you stay plugged into pop culture there? Just the internet? Just the YouTube all the time? That's the thing. All the TV stuff kind of goes over my head and people talk about all the shows they keep up on. That's like the one thing I kind of unsubscribe from. So people don't uh, don't uh, try to engage Jack in conversations about the TV shows that you just watch. Boring conversation ahead. Wow. Damn. Wow. I love this, Jack. You know, I don't usually get the hater side of Jack. Rare. Rare. I mean, plenty of hate from me, plenty of hate from stars, very little hate from Jack. I'm glad you brought it for Christmas. This the season. Yeah. Stas, did you have you pulled out your Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer set? Oh my god. So Nastasia has the entire Rudolph, the red-nosed reindeer, like, what is it, 30 or 50, 40th year anniversary set, where you had to buy, you had to buy Yukon, Cornelius, Hermi, Rudolph, and Santa Claus, and then you send away and you get the Bumble, and Styles, I think, was the only person that ever sent them all
+
+[44:45] and got the Bumble. It took a really long time to get them. No, we thought they were going to screw you on the bumble. I know. That is something Nastasio likes a lot. And by the way, I agree with her. All the rank and bass old, like, you know, oh my god, I wish Studs, you got to tweet out. The bumble is on the top of Nastasia's Christmas tree, like King Kong on the top of the Empire State Building. And, you know, you are hater in general, but you do pull out the Christmas, which I enjoy. So I'm on the Hannibal page here for the on Wikipedia. And apparently Jose Andras was the series is culinary cannibal consultant. Yeah, that's what that's well, right. Is that what he's getting to in the question? crazy. Yeah. Anyway, so the show was canceled because I guess there's only so much cannibalism people want to see on the TV. I don't know. And one of the things that stuck out to me was an episode where Hannibal talks about centrifuging
+
+[45:33] Sow's blood in order to create a clear liquid that tastes sweet, that would be the plasma.
+
+[45:38] I asked some medical professionals about it, and they mentioned that they had heard anecdotally from thirdhand
+
+[45:43] sources, thirdhand, like that. I never tasted it. serum and plasma, R indeed sweet tasting. Sounds interesting. I wanted to try it for an awful themed dinner. I got a cheap centrifuge, just been some blood, a 6 tube,
+
+[45:55] uh, primitive clay Adams model, 0181, which is like a standard, uh, thing. Uh, that I think was used by companies to give employees physicals for commercials, driver's license
+
+[46:04] tests or something like this. Anyways, the capacity is horrible, but I got some pork blood from my local butcher to centrifuge, and after about half an hour, I got 0 zilch separation. This puzzled me, since this machine was presumably used to separate blood for physicals. I called the butcher shop. I got the blood from Bel Campo Meats in Los Angeles. So, you can hang out and get some, no, thanks. And they said they didn't add anything to the blood as an anti-coagulant. It's just pure pork blood. It can't really be true though, right? Otherwise it would coagulate. I think there's got to be some. I think maybe if the, doesn't the pH? I forget. It's been such a long. There's plenty of literature about cooking with blood from plenty of sources, but nothing I can find out about centrifuging it for culinary use. Since Jose Andres was the culinary consultant on the Hannibal TV series, and he hasn't mentioned anything about centrifuging blood in any of his books. I have come to the conclusion that he has all this fun information about it and is jealously guarding it and keeping it from people like me. I don't think I can afford a centrifuge with significantly higher RPMs. So I'm wondering if there is a way to chemically clarify the solids out of blood similar to the way you clarify fruit juices and to produce a clear, possibly
+
+[47:12] sweet, serum, or plasma. always get them mixed up. Steve in Los Angeles. So, Wow, I don't know. I've never centrifuge blood in any of my machines. But this seems to me, Jack, am I right? Like, this is something that I guarantee you, we have people. I think so. Like, this is one of the things where you don't need me. There's been there's people out there, right? There's people out there. people out there. Don Vo writes in from Berkeley, California. You have never been to Berkeley. Isn't that weird? Do you like over there? No. Nice. Wow. What's so nice. All right. Uh, and he says, uh, he says nice things about us, which I enjoy. He says, well, I do have some questions. I don't know what to ask 1st yet. Anyways, we might just ask anything, right? People ask anything. You don't have to wait till you have anything. Ask a cooking question. Anyways, I do miss the original fishes, fishes, vodka. Remember that, Jack? Yeah. Yeah. What I would like to know, and here's the question that's important. What I would like to know is where do I get the Jackie Molecules ringtone and is that still available for my phone? Ooh, I might have taken care of this for him. Uh, but email us again, Info and HeritageRadioNetwork.org. The response will be quicker if you're a donor of heritage. But shoot us an email, we'll sort it out. All right, and we'll see what Styles thinks about this. Also, this has probably been said before, but is Aubrey Plaza's character on
+
+[48:45] Parks and Rec, a character portrayal of Nastasia. You feel yourself like, uh, it seems uh, like through the last 230 episodes, I imagine Aubrey Plaza channeling
+
+[48:56] Nastasia. Please don't hurt me, Stas. I respect the hammer. She sounds like someone awesome to hang out with. See, you saved yourself. Although I think Aubrey seems like cool. Like, I would want to hang out with her, right? Yeah. Anyway. I tell all the cooks and bartenders I know about cooking issues while I'm not in the industry myself. I seem to confuse people when I tell them I work in IT. All the stuff on the show you guys talk about makes them think that I work in a kitchen, which is highly amusing as I feel like a total fake.
+
+[49:26] Nice. Well, here's to making you feel like a total fake. Yeah. We do. That's how we do. I should wrap it up. Oh, all right. So I was just telling me we got to pull off it. So we should say anything specific in Christmas. We didn't do anything, any Christmassy things. Any advice we need to give for Christmas cooking? I don't know. I'll give you. You didn't get any Christmas. Well, it's because they didn't know it was going to be the last episode before. the last... Yeah they would. I'll give you guys a... Oh, war on Christmas. Stas, are you, are you, no, Stas is a pro-christmas warrior? Jack, are you neutral? I'm a solstice guy What? That's today. Happy? No, that was yesterday. No, no, no. 21st. 21st. Anyway, longest shortest day of the year, rather. A couple of things. Let me get a couple of things out of the way since I'm not having people call in, right? One, I went to China. I went to Hong Kong and Shenzhen more on that later if you guys are interested. Um, but I went specifically. I met the guy who makes the seers all. How cool is that? Also, Searsals are going to be back online in early January. What do you mean? They're out? They sold out. Freaking animals? No, no, no, no, no. The new load. They are taking their sweet time on putting them into the factories. Did you just say the new load? The new load. But is are there none available right now? Zero. We sold out of hours. And the new load is being held onto. Where is it? They can't tell me. You know how they are. We have none left to throw. Wait, someone online is selling one on Amazon for $7,300. Wow. That's a joke. Let me tell you something, people. I told Amazon that they were going to run out. We told them this was not on us. When did this happen? yesterday? I got a bunch of emails yesterday and then all morning I've been on the phone with them. Jesus. And they're in the country. Oh, yeah. They're here. They're here. freaking guys. Freaking guys. Freaking guys. And we're almost out of steak decorators. Yeah, they're coming from. Hey, listen, if you guys listen to steak decorator, We didn't do a lot of talking about it. It actually is a really nice piece of equipment, but Nastasia and I have to really feel that people want it in order for us to order another batch because they were really just for the Kickstarter people.
+
+[51:41] But you know, I use mine every day. It's like imagine if, like, imagine if, like, lazy Susan, if, like, Susan stops being lazy, took a bunch of anabolic
+
+[51:52] steroids and, like, you know, she became like super robo. We can't call it robo Susan because there's no motor in it. And we feel that like a robo Susan would have to be motorized, right? By the way, every restaurant I went to in China had a giant lazy season. That's awesome Yeah. Um, so I went to China to deal with uh, possibly a new next year, sometimes here's all
+
+[52:14] thing, and also to deal with the centrifuge. And I got good news and I got bad news. The bad news is it's taking us a little bit longer to do the centrifuge than I had hoped. I'm going to go through another round of prototyping. We will start talking about the centrifuge and releasing pictures early in the
+
+[52:34] New Year and hopefully in mid-January and telling you about all of its capabilities
+
+[52:39] and what it can do. Um, but as usual, we don't want to put something out until we're happy with it. And so it's going to take a month or 2 longer, then we had hoped, right,
+
+[52:52] stars? But it's going to be wheat when it happens. But remember, a lot of this is about, you know, well, we'll talk
+
+[53:00] more wind depth when, when, when I announce it sometime in mid-January. The other thing is, is that when you're cooking for Christmas or whatever, Hanukkah, next year,
+
+[53:11] whatever, New Year's, whatever. The primary thing, uh, and this is how I, like how I do, try to do almost everything is run a small test first. That's the thing, right? It's like you're going to have 15 or 20 people over. You're going to spend money, like a couple $100 on meat. Are you going to do some big thing of veg? Take the time to just do a couple of small scale tests first. Most of the time, it's not that big of a deal. Like if it's a poultry problem, just get like one breast or one leg and test it out. And this is the same thing. If you're going to be on a TV show, test the stuff out before you're going to, before you're going to do
+
+[53:47] it before you try to do it with the whole thing, because I know it seems like you don't have the time to do it. But that's really the way to figure out what's going to happen. If you run just one or 2 simple tests, the 2nd time around, it's going to be so much better. That's how I figure out everything anyway. And that's how hopefully you don't ruin the holidays. So happy holidays from cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[54:18] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Wisconsin cheese Cupid pairing app, available on
+
+[0:05] android and apple devices. I'm Linda Pelaggio, host of a taste of the past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the New Year, slightly late as usual on Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:39] Brooklyn. Hey, how you doing? Got, as usual, in the studio with me today, Nastasia, other Hammer
+
+[0:46] Lopez, direct back from her trip to Italy. How was Italy? It was okay. Ah, bad company, right? Yeah. Don't worry. your friends don't listen. Your friends don't listen. Your friends don't listen. We got Peter Kim, the director of the
+
+[1:03] Museum of Food and Drink, talking about what's going on with the program there, what we have planned in the
+
+[1:09] new year. And, of course, in the booth, Jackie Molecule, Jack Insley, how you doing, Jack? I'm great Happy New Year. Yeah, same to you, man. Yeah, so what do we got, what do we got going on? Anything good to announce from the Heritage Radio Network in this new year? Yes, absolutely. This is going to be slightly long, but worth it. All right. The cooking issues listeners came through so much for our fundraising drive that I have to shout all of them
+
+[1:36] out. All right, shout away. ready for this? Are you ready for this? What's that? That's uh... The jock jams? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, huh, let's see. I'll put it over some music here. We'll put the theme song or something. Thomas Metcalf. Alex McLeod, Aaron Perez, Brian Garthwaite, Josh Withlam, Jason Molinari, Drew Lang, Greg
+
+[1:58] O'Hara, Don Vo, Marcos Mokin McQueen, William Sabados, Chris Walker, Fred Schneider
+
+[2:05] Eat. Sorry, Steve Terrell, Kenneth Yee, Andrew Fessler, Andrew Schultz, Jen Tom, Renee
+
+[2:11] Kasper, Jonas, De Agnes, Justin Carlisle from Arden, Devin Maloney, Steve McLaren, Rich
+
+[2:20] McDonough. Hey, Nastasio Lopez, Lee Crawford, Nicholas Devlin, Nicholas Siebert, Edward Denell, John Daragon, Catherine Alford, Chris Kaiser, Robert McCammont, Peter Spandy, Kim Dykman, Co-Miles, Kevin Scott, Mark Bledsoe, Jeff Mays, Yuri Maimon, Ellen, Elliot Papineau, Reuben Cable, Gene Nahal, Andy Milka, Ray
+
+[2:45] Lis Locasero. Sorry, Jeffrey Gibbon, Nicholas Elliott, David Tassinari, Joel Esposito, Timothy Helmuth, and of
+
+[2:55] course John Riper. There we go. Wow. Thanks, everybody. You really like the cooking issues team really made our fundraising drive like possible. Nice. But Nastasia put a note on my list of questions today saying I should handle the old questions first, but I don't have my old questions, so I won't be handling them first.
+
+[3:15] someone can come up with them and then read them to me. But in the meantime, for some reason, I'm told that we're actually doing a live product demonstration on the air
+
+[3:22] today of a product that I have never used before or seen before. So why don't you, Stas, why don't you tell us what this is? Some people from Drink, mate, send us a drink, mate. Well, why explain what it is? A carbonated drink maker. Mostly for sodas, beer, wine, smoothies, and coffee. So it looks a whole hell of a lot like a soda stream. It has the same form factor as a soda stream. It looks like it uses a similar cartridge. You haven't shown me the cartridge. The cartridge, yeah, it's the same. Yeah, exact one with the exact fittings that soda screen uses. So you can use a soda stream cartridge in it. Yes. Okay. Flip it around there, Peter, so I can take a look at it. All right. It uses what looks to be an identical bottle to the soda stream, at least identical in style. Now, the thing I'm a crap about this guy, as opposed to the other ones, is these people are saying that you can go ahead and carbonate an alcoholic beverage in it from the
+
+[4:19] get go. Now, just with what that means, for those of you who have ever tried carbonating a non-water beverage in a soda
+
+[4:28] stream, is that they must have recalibrated the overflow, the
+
+[4:33] overpressured valve in it. That's the main reason why you can't carbonate alcoholic or
+
+[4:39] anything, really, other than water in a soda stream, because there's the extremely distinct possibility that if you're not extraordinarily careful, you will clog the
+
+[4:48] overpressure valve and lead to such amusing things as the bottle flying off in all directions and shattering a bunch of glassware in your house.
+
+[4:57] In fact, I had someone, even though I explicitly said what the problem was. He was like, uh, maybe even a cooking issue, listen, I don't know. He's like, thanks, Dave, for ruining all the glassware in my house. I'm like, hey, man, you know, this is at your own risk kind of a situation. When you go off the instruction manuals and take heart, uh, sears all owners out there. If you deviate, the instructions are there to provide the safest experience possible. Anytime you deviate from the instructions, whether they're our instructions or the soda screen people's instructions, you're kind of taking your life into your own hands. You know what I'm saying, Stas? You agree? So the bartender here when I told them what was going down? He was like, oh man, it's funny you say that. I put milk in my soda stream. It was a mess. Oh, don't ever milk. milk's the worst. Of all the things you can try to put milk in there. Yeah, what was the urge? Well, aside from the fact that, like, if it depends on the on the milk and how it's pre-stabilized, but you can have issues, you know, with,
+
+[5:51] but it's, it's a huge urge. People have to carbonate milk. Why? It just is. I guess you could make a better egg cream. Egg creams? No. There's no such. First of all, I'm going to get some angry calls about this. I've tried to love the freaking egg cream contains neither egg nor cream. I've tried to love it many times, many, many times. I've tried to love it. I have made it. I have purchased the official you bet foxes, syrup, which is the official egg cream syrup, which is like at one point maybe looked at a cocoa pod at some point, but that's about as close as it gets to being real chocolate.
+
+[6:24] And I just don't like them. I just don't like them. I do not like them. Okay. Do you like them? No, I don't. Do you like egg creams? No, I'm not crazy about that. Jack, egg creams? I'm not that crazy. Yeah, someone call me, someone call in two, 718-497-2128. Is that right? Yeah. 718-497-2128. And then tell me why 8 creams are worth even worrying about. Piper used to try to work on it all the time. And even he, he was dedicated to it. I think it's all he did when he went home, was work on egg creams, an eggnog, anything with the word egg in it. And uh, no, no good. No good. All right. So, I'm just guessing based on looking at this, you've overfilled the bottle. No, the Maxville line is... Maxville line for alcohol or max for the line for water? Did you actually read the freaking instructions? No faith in Stas. First of all, like Peter Anastasia have read the instructions. So, like, by Nastasia's own reckoning. That's like one person of like, you know, of normal care reading the instructions. All right, so let's go. Let's put, I'm going to put a mic, put a microphone. I guess. I don't know. do it in short bursts. I don't know how this happened. Wait, hold on. come video it. Peter, come on, just do it. Who's to define short, short's not a number. You made that up. You just lied. It said .25 seconds. It's a quarter of a second? It says maybe as short as .25 seconds. So this is an interesting technique that I've never tried with the soda screen before, to be honest, of this short burst technique. The idea, I guess, being that you can't build up a big head of foam with these short parts. Keep going. It hasn't gone through its overpressure yet. Yep, does it say to go tell it's bubbles? Sound is so funny. Yeah, tell it farts. Tell it farts. It's just like a soda screen. This is an interesting technique, people. I might have to revise. I'm not going to revise liquid intelligence. But this might be a revision. Oh, wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it. Wait. I know, I know, I know. Wait for it to settle. Don't take it off. Do not take it off yet. Patience. Patience is not a virtue, but in this case, this is not patience. This is just waiting for God to not be angry. Now wait. God's still angry, Peter. Okay, I think we good. No, you're not. You are not. You are not good. You are not good. I will tell you when you are good. Yeah, yeah, I see it. I see. You are not good. These are what people, when you're doing this, it's like, it's like when I tell you, how many years have I been carbonating, Peter? Why would you doubt me when I say it's not good yet? You know what I'm saying? It's like, wait for the bubbles. You see all those little bubbles that are still in it? As soon as you release it, those will expand, create foam. It will overflow the thing. I'm just taking this off the top. You know what that will do? That will release the pressure. That will release the pressure. That's a separate thing that we're looking for. All right. Let's see. Oh, geez. Oh, geez. Oh, geez. All right. So you see? Now. All right. Did you supposed to shake the bottle before releasing the pressure? Whoa, whoa, why? To, it says it's what we're supposed to do. All right, do that or not? Go, go. All right. Gently shaking. Okay. And then place the carbonation and fizz and fear on level service, open the slow release. Not yet. Not yet, Dave, you've had your kids, man. Listen, stop. It's gonna ruin the beverage. Stop. All right, we're going to talk about something else until this thing, 1st of all, that was the weakest shake I've ever seen in my life. this thing. It says gently shake. Crap on them. This is carbonation Jedi training now. Now listen. All right. keep it away from Peter until it freaking settles out and looks clear. What? We don't they don't know. Oh, we are carbonating, right? Carbonating. Not milk. A, uh, mule forced. Riesling 2009. How much is this bottle cost? It's on Heritage Radio. It's on Heritage radio? Oh, nice. All right. 13.5% alcohol by volume, which is a good alcohol level for carbonation. Um, Does this mean your deed means in the place of said, in place of being saying? What does this mean, French speaking? I don't know. place, speak, right? Yeah, but I don't know. Play said mule forest. It's so weird. It's a random combination of German and French. That's what else is, I guess. Stars, isn't it great? Just, you know, 10 minutes of verbal hatred from Dave, a little heat down, vitriol. And then a relaxing beverage. Yeah, take the edge off. I don't see how we're going to have relaxing beverages unless we're taking polls directly off of the freaking bottle because there's no cups
+
+[11:01] in geniuses. I'll take that one. All right, that's my bad. So now, Peter. It's a great drinking buddy. Now, Peter, you may gently open it. Wait, no, he has to release. But yeah, that's what I mean. Gently, gently. So, all right, but stop. See, look at the thing. Don't look at the instructions, look at the beverage. know. All right. Now, there are bubbles that are slowly rising to the top. Wait, wait. Wait. Wait. Now, you may fully release it. No, it says I supposed to close the slow release. Why? And then wait for the bubbles to settle before opening. I don't know. What's with the blue thing? You don't have to touch the blue thing. I don't know dude. Okay, so I can press the button for the fast release. No, no, no. Okay. Once. In in .252nd burst, Peter. Alright. All right, there, you're good. Okay, fully depressurized. screwing. Yes. All right. Now, here. You got LN Chili's glasses? I'm amateurs. These are the worst people in the whole world. I may say something else, Jack, Stas, and Peter, is that 9 times out of 10, this one's Jax. Nine times out of 10, um, still lines, although they taste good. Oh, where have you learned to pour? People, when you're pouring a not cold enough drink, which this wine was not cold
+
+[12:24] enough, into a not cold glass. It doesn't say it needs to be cold on the instructions, which is strange. Oh, I'm sorry that they don't really understand the principles involved. just letting everybody know. Listen, it's a well-known fact, it's a fact
+
+[12:39] of physics slash chemistry, depending on how you look at it, that the carbonation level is directly, it's going to be wheat
+
+[12:46] carbonation because it's underchilled. And because Peter touched it. Cheers, people. Let's see. Cheers. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, guys. I hate myself It's nice actually. After all that, it is nice. It's under carbonated. I'm surprised. It's under carbonated for what I want. It's under carbonated for what I would do if I was carbonating, but it's carbonated well for
+
+[13:12] a wine. And in fact, most wines you don't want over carbonated. So like one of the gripes you have with carbonated... This was my dental touch, Dave. I was, you were assuming I was making mistakes every step in the way, but
+
+[13:23] I was, I was like, micro calibrating the carbonation. You know what the other thing is, is that this wine has a bit of a sherry note on the end, a bit of oxidation,
+
+[13:30] which I like incarbonated beverages, but a lot of people don't because the
+
+[13:35] oxidized nature of it kind of comes up. But I think that's just due to the age of the wine in this, in this case. Cheers. Good job, Peter. Is that what we need out of life? Is that what we need out of life, people? Get a good job, all the free money. What? Just what we use. I just want you to be proud of me, Dave. Yeah, you know what? You know what? I'm going to go give the bartender a taste of this because he wanted to. Brought to you by drinkmate, carbonated drinkmaker. A machina des babidas carbon carbonizadaas, right? It's not obviously they're not selling in Canada. Where's the French? Where's the French at? Yeah. We're being French. I wonder what a smoothie tastes like carbonated. Disgusting. I'm just telling you that right from the get go. Who, like, carbonating a smoothie. You know what that makes it taste like? Like it fermented, like it went bad, like rot, like stank. I don't like, ugh, carbonated smoothie. Well, get back to me. Maybe you people love carbonated smoothies. I don't know. Listen, I have my tastes. You have yours. What's that from, Stas? You carbonate your drink on carbonate, Mike. That's like, what's his name? Yukon Cornelius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm better at Hermes than I am at. And I'm better at, uh, at, uh, what's his name? What was his name in the box? Oh, wow. It says on the box, 4 steps of sparkling, but forgets the sort of 3 steps in between those 4 steps of yelling at each other. human degradation. Hey, listen. Listen, people drink, mate, to the fill line. Listen, people, listen, people. Tell everybody else how worthless they are. People, people, people. People. Here's here's the New Year's resolution. Stop being an enemy of quality. And just do it right. Just freaking. He did it right. He did it right. And that requires me yelling, huh? That required me yelling at him. It's like, it's like, when I'm yelling, it's not personal. It has nothing to do. It has to do with the product. I just want the product to be good Everybody at Roberta is really loves this. They're very, very very impressed. Oh, good, good. But you know what my point is, is that all I worry about is the quality of the product. That's it. Well we know this. Yeah. You've ruined me too. You should hear the things I say to my girlfriend now. Wow, like what? Well, I mean, when things aren't done right, I just kind of lose it, you know? But I think that's good. I called her an enemy of quality once. never forgave me. That's a good thing. because no one wants to be that. I mean, that's the thing. Like, no matter what you do in life, you can either try to be better at it or
+
+[16:06] not, right? Like, why be lazy? You have to live. Like, that's the thing. You have to go through life. Why would you want to do it in a haphazard and crappy manner? I don't know, Dave. sometimes I don't want to live sometimes. Oh, that's that's by the way, Peter's Patrick Martin's invitation. Taking, taking. No, no, no, but taken from a round table, a MoFad round table we did where Peter Singer, the philosopher kind of, you know, who started the animal liberation movement, was on the panel and basically calling Patrick out, you know,
+
+[16:42] these, you know, these animals, oh, no, so someone in the audience, actually, these animals want to
+
+[16:46] live and he's like, sometimes I don't want you to do it. No, you do it. can't do it. You're the Patrick imitator. Sometimes I don't want to live, you know? And then and then I'll say I'll say something. I'll be Peter Singer, which I'm not going to do in Australia because he has an Australian accent. But he goes, uh, he says, uh, what do he say? He said, well, all of your animals, even if they're treated really well, like, you know, they're all castrated, all the males are
+
+[17:10] castrated. you know, what you know, what do you think about that? You remember what his response was? I was circumcised. Pretty brilliant, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done, Patrick. Cheers to Patrick. Cheers to Patrick. Our our benevolent founder. of the Heritage Radio Network. Okay, by the way, before I get into it, by the time we get into it, it'll be over, but today is just one of those freaking days in New York City. Do you know what I mean? Well, no, it's like it got cold so fast that the crazies haven't made it home
+
+[17:43] yet, so the crazies are still out, but it's like freezing. Like I had that guy on the subway today who is playing music out loud on his phone. Oh, worst. Worst. The worst. Makes me wish I was a giant hulking brute because then I could just pick up my phone and play
+
+[18:01] the, like whatever the polar opposite of what he is playing, it's always a dude. It's always a large dude who's never like, I don't know, comes from a place where no one's ever been like, you know, dude, that's like not cool. You know what I mean? Like, he's always been big, and so no one's ever like, you know, dude, you're kind of a, you're kind of an a-hole here. You know what I mean? And so like, but like if I was a giant human, I would just play the opposite and then be like, oh, wait, I thought it was just random, annoy your, you know, neighbor with crap music day. You know what I mean? But no, I'm not a giant. I can't even say when headphones are too loud. Never mind playing music. And then, and that, yeah, I know, right? Put headphones on. I mean, no one at the subway is trying to kill them. He doesn't need to keep his wits about him. I understand people on bicycles who play music out loud. Like, I don't particularly like it, but I understand my brother does it. I understand it because they're like trying to say, I am near you. Like, you hear moving music biker near you. I get it. You know what I mean? But like in the subway, what the hell? Well, you know, why do you need what, you know? And then when I get off the subway, I'm walking over here, you know, through
+
+[19:05] the, through the, through the apartments, right? Through Bushwick Housing, I'm walking over through here. And the dude on the electric bicycle smoking a cigarette, doing
+
+[19:13] delivery, delivery creeps past me on a sidewalk doing like 15 mile an hour on his silent freaking electric bike. hate that. hate that. Hate that. New York. Shastino, New York. Happy New Year. And everyone who went out and walked their freaking dog this morning. I'm a dog owner, by the way, everyone who went out and walked their dog this morning and forgot to bring their gloves with them didn't take the time to pick up the poop because their hands were too cold. I don't care about your fingers. Pick up the poo. You know what I'm saying? Anyways. All right. Hi, Peter. Hello, Dave. This Riesling is quite lovely, isn't it? It is good. It is good. You know, wait, these guys come up with a portable one too, that you can take. So when you go to Phil's house and you're like, who brought this crappy Chardonnay? Well, it's not portable. The lid could stay on. Well, no, it's a separate, it comes with a little CO2. What's the retail on this thing? What is the MSR penis? I have no idea. What is it again? By the way, okay, so I haven't seen you guys in a while, so I'll run through some of the stuff that's
+
+[20:15] happened cooking wise over the break here. I made possibly the best prime rib of my life over the Christmas
+
+[20:22] time and I hate to say it, but it's not wasn't like a reproducible thing. I started doing, I put, how did I do it? I wrapped my mom had like some old giant ziploc that did I even use that? How did I bag it? Huh. Because I did it low temp. I don't even remember. I think I bagged it like in like a trash bag. I don't know. I bagged it in something vile and disgusting. But I thought originally, oh, no, I know what I did. My mom, I told her to have the butcher cut the bones off, right? So I cut the bones off and every year I try to cook the bones and stuff and you're like, you know what? You don't need to low tempt the bones. You want the bones cooked high and you want that high overcooked meat with the fat and the gristle and crap around the bones,
+
+[21:07] right? So like all of a sudden, and there's not a big piece of meat. So it's okay to presalt that for a long time ahead of time. So all of a sudden now I'm already on a winning path, a path to winning, right? And so I salted down the bones. Put them in the fridge, took out the roast, and then wrapped it in plastic wrap a 1000000000 times like we used to do
+
+[21:28] with uh, with chickens, remember? Remember? The old plastic wrap roll. So I plastic wrap rolled it, which means it was super easy to get circulated it, but here's the problem. I didn't have enough time to, I didn't have enough time. because I started too late, right? So I was starting it at 55. I was going to do it all the way through, do a cool down, but then like, and, you know, when I only had a couple of hours left, I was like, ah, so I jacked it to 58, figured it doesn't matter if the outside's overcooked a little bit.
+
+[21:55] And then when I rest it to cool it down, I'll get an initial bump into the inside, which was true.
+
+[22:00] So after a little bit of that, I pulled it out and the initial was at 50,
+
+[22:06] like four, no, like 4 in the high 40s, right? Celsius on the inside. So this is where my tandor training. And by the way, after the New Year's, I did tandor chicken. I am becoming much every time I use the tandor. I get better and better and better at the tandor. And the tandor is all about in and out,
+
+[22:26] in and out, if you're a hoof fan. You're not a who fan? You don't like the who? No, it's a man. Now it's yeah, sorry about that. Well, you know, isn't that the squeeze box song? Anyways. So like what I did, I was like, ma, ma, have you already done cooking the potatoes or what? Can I have the oven? So she like pulls the potatoes out. I crank the oven to 500 and then it's in and out, right? So I'm like, in for 20, out for, out for 20. let it let it the outside cool down in for 20 until I figured that the the last rest would bring me inside. HS up to 55 and then the outside would have that overcooked thing that we all like. Oh, and underneath it, I just let the the rack roast until it was right, right? Threw it in for a couple minutes at the end, and then serve the whole thing. In fact, I cooked. In fact, I put the roast on the rack for the in and out. I wrote pre-roasted the rack and then put the roast back on the rack for the
+
+[23:18] in-N-Out procedure so that you wouldn't get an overcooked section next to the bone where you don't want it overcooked, right? Right? Right? Great. So why is this not replicable? Because I didn't write down the numbers or anything like that. And the end effect was what? Delicious. Delicious. Delicious. Fiddler on the roof. Yeah, fiddler on the delicious. Yeah, anyway. There's still time to try out, Dave. Yeah, yeah. I have a caller whenever you're ready. Oh, call her. on the air. Hi, Dave. how's it going All right, how are you doing? Happy New Year. Good. Happy New Year. I'm going to try and follow in your footsteps. I'm planning on going to Mexico City in 2 weeks. And I think I'm going to try and bring back a Nick Stomatic. Awesome. And so I think, did you say you carried yours on? Like, what do I, what should I expect? Like, I'm just kind of nervous about, like, this big thing and then, like, not being able to take you on the plane with me kind of thing. Do you pack light? Um, I could. Yeah. I would pack light and then just bring it back as you're checked. Okay. Yeah, just leave it in the box, like overwrap the box and have it as you're checked. Now, let me tell you a little thing, a couple things about the Knicks domatic. Did I talk about this when I was making Christmas cookies? That I like, it would poof. It came back to life. I told you it came back to life. Don't grind almonds in it after you add sugar. If you add sugar to almonds. If you grind just almonds or any nut, it works like a champ, right? If you if you add sugar to it while it's grinding, the oil will get
+
+[24:50] expressed and it will turn to a glue on the inside, clamp your plates together, and then that's when you're going to get the poof on the
+
+[24:55] motor. So don't do that. Another, this lady just pulled a bottle of wine. Oh, she's tripping water on her pizza. She's dripping water on her phone on her pizza. That sounds so disgusting to me, like water on pizza. Oh, Jesus. Oh my god. I can't look. looking away. I turning the microphone and talking to you and I'm looking away from the woman. Um, so uh, where was I? Where was I? Nix Nomatic. The other thing you have to know is that the casting quality on the burrs isn't, she's done with the wine. I can look back Is it necessarily the best? And so what happens is, is the 1st 4 or 5 batches you make with the
+
+[25:32] Nixtomatic of Masa are going to be fairly coarse. And you need to literally grind the masa burrs
+
+[25:40] into into like a co-planar kind of a situation. And so the very 1st one you do, like, you know, obviously grind some dry rice to get most of the metal grid out. But I just don't worry about a little bit of extra steel getting into my masa for the 1st couple of runs around and my plates have gotten like a lot, lot better over time. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Okay. So like your 10th batch batch of masa is going to be better than your first or your 2nd or third. I don't know where it lets out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It keeps getting better, in other words. But it starts out like not so great, but don't worry about that. Okay. Just buy a lot of rice. Yeah, or like I said, like after I went through a couple things of rice. I just started... I was like, to hell with it. And dude, you know, you're double grinding the mosset, right? So you're doing a double grind on it. And, uh, but yeah, it just keeps getting better. Okay, that's good. Yeah, just, I think for some reason, I was under the impression that there was, um, they might give you a hard time about checking, checking it, though. No, I mean, it doesn't have any lithium batteries in it. When I was in China, you know, they were like, you know, that's like literally the week I was in China. I dont know if I already said this, literally the week I was in China, they stopped allowing you to bring
+
+[26:51] hoverboards on the plane, even in checked baggage because they kept blowing up, but there's no lithium batteries in this, so it's all good. Cool. No one understands corn grinder anyway. You got corn grinder. That's like I brought a, you know, when I went to Japan and brought back the toilet. They're like, you're bringing a toilet back. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I am. And what? course. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Well, thanks so much. All right. Hey, listen, let us know how it works once you get it. Have a good time in Mexico. I'm sure you, Hey, go to the, the, uh, the Merced. I think is the name of the market, right? Go there. And there's a lady. Squash blossom quesadillas. Get it. buy it. eat it. I've already listened. All right, good. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much. All right. Oh, so the last thing I will say is because it is the season to be jolly for New Year's, I busted out our old mochi maker that we had like years ago and
+
+[27:43] I made the fresh mochi, which is delicious and I'm here. I know this trend is like 10 years old, almost next year, this year, 2016. Uh, I think 10. Muffled. You ever had a mothole, Peter? Jack Mothel? Nope. Stas Moffel? Stas was like, why are you talking about food? This is a cooking show. Sorry for the 3rd time. That's not possible. I've only seen you once. I know, and in that time. One to me, one to Nick Wong. No, we were together talking about it. Yeah, well, I'm sorry that, you know, not everyone in the freaking world like can sit around and talk with us all the time. How many times I have to hear you talking about Daniel Krieger and banana grams and how you have disparate ways of playing with each other. Not once. I've heard it 3 freaking times already. And that's how something stupid, freaking how to play banana grams. People. Two letter Scrabble words are legit. I'm sorry that you don't like key spelled QI. I apologize for your lack of liking. Yes, young Jedi. By the way, it is not the same. I'm looking at it now. not the same as a soda screen bottle. It's not the same as a soda stream bottle. got little weird pegs on it. So they're not mutually compatible. I'm enjoying observing the acrimony, much like the emperor between Luke and his. Give me some electric hands, Peter. Uh, so the, uh, no, unlimited power. That's what he says, right? When he kills Mace Window? Uh, and I'm supposed to spoil the new Star Wars for Peter. No, don't do that. I would never do that. One of my friends spoiled it on Twitter. What the hell? I know. Why are they still your friends? They're not. over. All right, done. Anyway, so back to Mochi. So, turns out Fresh mochi is freaking delicious and I don't advocate that you go out and spend 219 bucks on a
+
+[29:30] mochi maker. But if you happen to have one lying around. The tiger mochi maker, it is sick. And I did fresh mochi, which was really good. Like, we did it. I did Italian style because I didn't have any sesame oil or anything with me, but like they're like little gnocchi, but even more chewy, delicious. But then you just take a, and you pad it out thin, and it works the next day, Styles, which I couldn't have told you because I did this morning. And last night, you can take the hard, like, day old mochi. And I think even commercial mochi. And you just put it, you put spray grease in a waffle iron, and it just expands to fill out the waffle iron, and turns out like crisp
+
+[30:06] chrysipe outside and like gooey inside mochi in the waffle iron, and that's hence mochi waffle, waffle, and they are
+
+[30:15] like... Dude, that's the next ramen burger, man. It's got to be like, I don't like, pick up on this, people. Like start making this crap in restaurants here in the U.S. because it is a win. The only issue is, is that the texture, like all freshly done mochi, the texture tends to change pretty drastically and pretty quickly. So it's best as a quickly eaten item. And I saw some people online doing it and their stuff just looked like low, weak, weak. You got to make sure that the waffle goes on long enough, get it thin enough. And here's the other trick. You have to lift the waffle plate out a bunch of up, like 2 or 3 times during the cook to get the maximum lateral expansion of the
+
+[30:53] mochi. But anyway, so I'm planning on playing more with Mochi as time wears on. The reason I got it out, not because of New Year's because anyone who's listening to the last episode knows that this year is going to be the year of starch research for me.
+
+[31:07] Well, plus I'm supposed to write a book and get a centerfuge done. You hear her to hear first, folks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's take a really quick break, yeah? All right, coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[31:27] So today's program is brought to you by the Cheese Cupid app, which is a really fun and awesome app, which will pair cheese with a beverage. So don't be shy. Choose a category. What beverage compliments your cheese. What cheese compliments your beverage. Wisconsin cheese cubit has the answer. Simply choose the beverage of cheese in need of a soulmate, and Wisconsin cheese Cupid will do the rest. Feeling adventurous, pairing roulette will create a random yet perfectly delicious pairing for you. So visit cheesecupid.com, get the app. Check it out, pair your cheese and your wine. We'll be right back. You didn't see, uh, just Big Whoop Me? Wow. I learned Peter, Kim, has not seen Despicable Me. I haven't seen anything. The hell is wrong with you people? So that's that's, you know, that's just a whole list of cultural references. I can't use on you guys. Weak. Oh, wait, we had one last thing. What were we talking about? Mochi. Carbonation. Tandor. I don't know. It'll come to me. roast. No, yeah, no, not that. No, that's over. I'm done talking about. I'll never talk about it. I'll just get to some questions and eventually they'll come to me. Happy New Year. I have a cooking issue, which I would love to discuss on your podcast, and that is the issue of cooking for 01. Wait, just actually, we had this conversation last night, stuff. Oh, yeah. All 3 of us did. You think it's not sad. I'm the one who doesn't like cooking for one is so going out to eat by yourself is not sad. Cooking for what? I don't mind either way, really. I don't like, I don't like eating. My life lives in Ethiopia. can I say? I don't like eating. Yeah, she works at UN. What? What? said he has yet to meet her. Ethiopianwives.com, man. Yeah, man, yeah. The papers will come through any day now, Peter, any day. So, the point being, I don't like to eat. I don't mind, like when I cook for myself, and it's, this person's, she's going to get mad. But like, what I cook for myself, literally, it's always the same thing. It's poached eggs. And because I'm only doing three. It's traditional. It's funny that you choose poached eggs. Why not just like a sunny side up egg? I find that to be even easier. I like poached eggs and my wife doesn't like them. So like, it's not that she doesn't like them, but she should treat himself. Yeah, I'm treating myself to something that I can't cook in general for the family that I, see, the waitress, when she pours this freaking beverage for the person, wiped off the bottle so that it wouldn't drip all over every freaking thing. Low quality. Enemies, enemies of quality. Okay. Yeah, I don't like eating by myself primarily because I eat so fast that there's always a lot of sitting and staring at the ceiling and all this other stuff while I'm waiting for the next plate of food to come out.
+
+[34:10] And I freaking hate being by myself waiting for a check. I freaking hate waiting for checks. Even when I'm with company. use the cover app. I don't know. Anyway, anyway. Under the question. On the question. It's not really a question. This is more of a statement. Even though single occupant households are the fastest growing demographic in the developed world, their needs are often
+
+[34:30] overlooked. obesity and poor nutrition caused by overconsumption of junk food. I just call it junk, although you know what? I don't allow anyone to use in my house to wear junk food. don't allow it. We have a ban on that at MoFed, too. Because I was yelling and screaming about it or you have your own notice in general, yeah. I think it's terrible junk food, superfood. Anything that's just sort of on the... Any moralizing of food, I think, is a bad... And, you know, I tried to write a piece on that. We talk about junk people. Yeah, poor quality people. I think there is food. I think there's food that's just poorly made, but like the problem with junk is calling food junk is that it then sets it up as something that you kind of want.
+
+[35:09] It's like this like, 1st of all, guilty pleasure. Oh it's so decadent. Oh, my food is so decadent. I'm gonna put slices of cucumber on my eyes. I back and enjoy this decadent guilty pleasure. Yeah, guilty pleasure being sinful. No, it's food. Like either it's well made and it tastes good. It makes you happy, or it's crap, and garbage, and you shouldn't eat it. You know what I mean? It's like, uh, anyway, okay. Over consumption of junk food is on the rise. I believe single people are more like I'm back to reading the question. are more likely to eat prepackaged meals because they can't be bothered cooking just for themselves. I think that's true. But I don't eat prepackaged meals because I just eat cook eggs. As I like to say. Your pre-package meal is a block of cheese. As like I say, when... I don't know. I have nice cheese in my free fridge, thank you. But like, you know, when life hands you eggs, suck eggs. Right? Um, They need help. These are single people. Back to the question. I'm a single woman and want to help people who live alone, cook and eat good, healthy food, not just for their health, but because they deserve it. Cooking is something I enjoy. Is this clear? I don't know who is this? Louise Harper. Uh, now you made me lose my train of thought. like that's hard. Cookie something I enjoy. Be it for myself, for my friends and family. I want to inspire others to feel the same. Freshly cooked food using natural ingredients, although natural, I have my problems with the word natural. In fact, like I have huge problems with the word natural because if you buy into natural, right? The problem is, is that you think that the stuff that you're buying out that says natural on it is somehow what you want. What you want is people to go buy whole things like celery and make things out of it. Like something that is like celery flavored that is all natural, is just as kind of reconstituted and discombobulated as anything else.
+
+[36:56] Look, even, like, Marion Nessel believes the word natural means nothing. And when, yeah. The problem with a word that means nothing that carries connotations with it is, is that people make decisions based on
+
+[37:06] it, and they're being a bamboozled. That's the issue. Uh, yeah, everyone in the business like knows that it is an absurdity. And yet, like 1000000s of dollars are spent by people thinking that they're doing the right thing by themselves and their family, buying things that say
+
+[37:23] natural, and it's a word with 0 meaning. I would say a good exercise is just in one day, look for the word natural in all the food that you
+
+[37:32] eat, and just see where it appears, and that will, I think, kind of be illuminating, just doing that. Yeah. In fact, or if you want to know more about the subject, come to the Museum of Food and Drink on 62 Bayvard Street, but I was playing
+
+[37:45] McKinnick Park in England. So you can see how the word natural has been perverted over the last 110 years.
+
+[37:53] 06, right? No, 09. Was that all just a setup for a MoFAD ad? Basically, that was great. really good. I have my pseudonym, Louise. Yeah. Anyway, we're back to we're back to Luis. Harper. Anyway, my recipes are for healthy food, not health food. Here's the important part, and here's where we totally agree. Sharing, she says my, but sharing a streamlined approach to cooking with your listeners will help take a lot of stress out of
+
+[38:18] cooking. So, uh, will my hand send tips on shopping, setting up a pantry of such central
+
+[38:23] kissing tools. When your kitchen is well equipped and well stocked, cooking is way easier. Sincerely, Louise Harper, Herb, herb, blog is singleserve.net.au. So Australian. I have no idea what shopping I've never been to Australia. I don't know what supermarkets like there. But I think it's true. I think 9 times out of 10, the problem with people cooking in general at home is that
+
+[38:43] they don't have a streamlined procedure. That's why, like, uh, if you want to use a piece of equipment. keep it out on your counter If you don't have space for it, just realize you're never going to use it again. Like, uh, I've said this a 1000000 times, but like once my pasta maker got taken off of the counter, my rollers, I stopped making
+
+[39:01] pasta. And I had been making it for years at least once a week because I could see it there and my Kitchen A was right next to it and I knew how to like bust that stuff out. You know what I really want? This is, you know what I really want? I want the KitchenAid pasta rollers. But they're too expensive. Why do they cost 200 bucks? Someone out there, please tell me, for God's name, why is the KitchenAid pasta roller set $200 when an
+
+[39:21] Atlas, like pasta roller with the same rollers on it that clamps to your counter,
+
+[39:25] it's like, what do those things cost us? Do you even know? They're like 50 bucks. 799, Dave. What? KitchenAid pasta roller? Yeah. I got it for 80 here online. 199. How many rollers does yours come with? I don't know. This is bed Bath and Beyond. I need the roller and the cutter. I actually don't need the cutter. I really only need the one. I can cut pasta myself. I have hands. my fault. just the attachment. No, but that's all you need. But usually it comes with 3 attachments, 2 different sizes for the thick noodles and the thin noodles
+
+[39:51] and the roller. Right. Yeah, that's 160 for all three, yeah. Yeah, I don't need all three, though. They sell just a roller? I'll find out. I mean, again, my hands work. I can cut. Uh, you think this year, because the year of Sarched, I should get back into cutting soba again. Remember when I was on my cutting soba kick, my soba knife sits unused in my
+
+[40:10] in my lower drawer weird Japanese knife case. Yeah. Anyways. Uh, Okay. Hi, I've been listening to the radio show in the car or while I'm cooking or walking. which explains, uh, all things where it's a pain to stop and take notes. Also, from the show's notes, it's sometimes a bit tricky to remember which shows certain things happen. This is for you, Jack. I don't know if you saw this. This is a long way of saying, wouldn't it be cool if there were transcripts? If there are already transcripts and just ignore me for being a bit slow. If not, I had an idea. Transcripts could go onto the podcast and make them more searchable, Jack, or they could go on a
+
+[40:45] Wiki or something and get cross-referenced and link by cooking issues fans slash nerd. It might even be a lazy way to write a book, which I do need to write a book on. You know what, Father Bill daily, Father. He, you know, he, he's the cocktail. He thinks I should write cocktail priest. He thinks I should write a book called Useful Rants, Rants. Oh yeah. Rants by Dave Arnold. Not Rance Prebus, Rance. Okay. I've been getting all nerdy about getting things transcribed through rev.com recently. They do a pretty good job and cost $one a minute, but if there are 231 episodes, then that's a shade over 10
+
+[41:21] grand, Jack. 10 grand. It's a lot of money to find out of nowhere, but think of Kickstarter would make it easy. If one of the reward tiers was $50 and you get your name at the top of one of the episode transcripts, it'd be easy. With that much volume, you'd probably get a good discount on
+
+[41:34] transcription too. Anyway, what do you think? do you think? What do you think? Manage it. I think we should have an intern do it by hand. Yeah, Erica just said that here in the booth. Damn. Get the get the Oompa Loompas doing it. that's right Can we get to sing the songs? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like when we're doing stuff? Can they just say that like if we were giving good manners, we would go far? You know that little storage room in the basement we have at Mofad? There a murder room in Mofad, you have to walk down to. That's where we keep the Oompa Loompas. The oopalooas are great. And one of the many reasons why, although I love Johnny Depp, that the more recent movie is a
+
+[42:07] travesty because of the way that... Oh, man. Where have you been? I've been building the... Oh, oh, no, that's a lie. This movie came out like in like, in like 11 or 12. Liar, liar, just a twinkle in your eye at that point, the museum that is. Okay. Two minutes, 2 minutes, 2 minutes. Oh, geez. Hope you're well, it's been a long time since we've seen each other. This is from Chris. I'll cut right to it. Although he does mention the last time I had the pleasure of seeing you, I believe you accidentally,
+
+[42:37] in question mark, shot subzero vodka in my sinus with a syringe of tails of the cocktail. I may not be remembering it correctly, but either way, I've got some seriously clean sinuses. I listen to the podcast often, usually when I'm out in the run, it never fails to teach me something. I'm working now and opening a new beer spot in Seattle called No Anchor, and
+
+[42:55] finally I have time to focus on some finer issues in a beer bar that I've never gotten to properly tackle.
+
+[43:00] Green design, further the exploration of beer cocktails, et cetera. To save on time, water, energy, and labor. The only cocktails we were doing will be draft and bottle cocktails that use beer in some way. For bottling cocktails that use beer, especially those that feature beer, in which we are concerned with maintaining hot qualities, we will ideally be using glass that blocks the proper wavelengths of light.
+
+[43:17] Brown as opposed to clear or green. Should I be concerned with whether a brown beer bottle can withstand the pressure of a carbonated cocktail? Do you have any experience with doing corked in cage, cocktails in large format? No, although I want to, but I would be using probably champagne style bottles because they're designed to cork and then cage, and you can fairly cheaply get
+
+[43:34] a champagne corker to do it. I don't think those will fit standard beer bottles, but you probably could use a brown beer bottle that's meant for a Belgian style
+
+[43:42] one that's bigger, right? One that's more of a 750 format, in which case it's fine. They will handle those larger bottles will easily handle like up to 4 volumes and you're not probably going to get above 4 volumes in a beer cocktail anyway, so they should.
+
+[43:55] The lighter, cheaper beer bottles, right? capping them and trying to get them to go in. Some of them might have rupture problems when you're getting into the four, 4.5 volumes range, but most of the time they'll be okay. And if you let them come up to room temp after you've bottled them and put them somewhere. Just like once you chill them down again, they're definitely safe. So they might explode, especially if you get secondary fermentation inside of one
+
+[44:17] of them, which is a distinct possibility because you're adding sugar. That's where you're going to look out, right? So you're either going to want to kill off fermentation, so that there's no more yeast that's alive in it, or you might run into problems with explosion if they're left at room temperature. If you leave them at fridge temperature, they will build over time. You might still get some explosions, but you never know. But it's something to be aware of when you're bottling cocktails for a long period of time that they're going to change over time if there's live yeast. And even if there's not, unless you add something to actually destroy yeast, right? Like a preservative that kills yeast. You're going to have issues with yeast in the stuff, fermenting and reducing your sugar levels as well as increasing your carbonation levels.
+
+[44:54] Second, as oxygen is the enemy of beer, and there are any methods you would suggest, testing when transferring beer from a keg into a corny keg for a draft cocktail, are the effects of light and oxygen going to be moot, once we roll the beer up into a full cocktail, it'll be served within a week,
+
+[45:05] are there small steps I can take to get that extra little pop jazz hands? Thanks for your time. Chris Elford, who's a certified system run, which is a beer thing. Okay, you're not going to get a lot of oxygen during the transfer simply because it's already carbonated. So if as long as it's already carbonated before you do the transfer, it's continually effervescing, and because it's continually effervescing, it doesn't have a lot of time to do a lot of oxygen uptake to it, and it kind of forms its own barrier, you can pre-purge your kegs and everything with CO2 to make sure that you're not, you're not dumping into oxygen and getting some mixing there, and you can then postcarbonate again into the keg and do a couple flash offs to make sure you've gotten any oxygen
+
+[45:43] out and you have primarily CO2 in there. But hopefully that works. So I'm being told that we're out of time. Next week, I'm going to talk to Alex about Cook's Illustrated review of black or blue, depending on how you talk about it, steel pans versus cast iron. And what I think about cast iron and steel pans, and that's cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England
+
+[0:05] cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Food. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking. You just coming to you live from a British Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:41] Network from roughly 12-ish, a little late today, 1212. 12 is a nice number, though. To Revely, and then like 1245, 1250, depending on when we get. We only start the show on nice numbers. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, we should start at 8 and then we can always have it start at 808 and we can have a suite, the sweet cowbell. No, I like the boom. The kick, yeah, of course. But that's, that's, that's, that's so mainstream, though, like the 808 base. The cowbell is the unsung. Oh, you a great point, Peter. Well, no, Peter has betrayed his oldness. I would say the average young person has no idea what an 808 is. doesn't remember who the Beastie Boys were when they started name checking the 808 or anything
+
+[1:19] about it. Oh, you're wrong. 808 has had a good Renaissance and resurgence. Well, nothing sounds quite like an 808. Can we hear that? you have it? I can pull up an 808. Give me a 2nd here. We'll make it. What's Stas laughing at? This guy is enamored with Dave. No, not even. Yeah, he can't take his eyes off you. That's because I'm a freak He's so, well, how would you describe it, Peter? All right, so listen. This is just an 808 beat. We're going to play. 808 Let's see. Make no mistake. Well, this is what happens when you pull up YouTube. never know. Oh, there's uh, yeah. Yep. Oh, yeah. See, like, that's like, that's like the 80s, 808. That's like run DMC style 808. Yeah exactly. Oh, too bad Dave can't rap over this. Well, you know, apparently, Peter Kim, from the Museum of Food and Drake, who's here with us again today, used to do freestyling.
+
+[2:13] Known rapper but known liar, right? Wow. Ouch. Was that your rap name? Known liar. Known liar. Exactly. Wow. Damn. Wow. You know, Peter called me at 9.50 PM on Monday. Being yesterday. Do you know why that's important? No, why is that important? It's bachelor season. Do you know what happens? A rose ceremony. Yeah. Well, I think you can hear that. Rostasia Hammer Lopez is with us today as usual with her love of the Bachelor, which
+
+[2:47] is new season. Is the Bachelor as bad for America as the Jerry Springer show? I don't think so. And joined as usual in the engineering booth with Jack, Jackie Molecules
+
+[2:58] Insley. What do you think, Jack? I have to, I have to say something. Somebody just tweeted at us like 15 minutes ago and they sent me this. They said this is for Jackie Molecules, and I have to play it. It's 10 seconds long. Ready?
+
+[3:16] The molecular man. Right? Wow. Wow, what is that? It's a Conan O'Brien sketch, the molecular, man. It's got the same voice as Will Ferrell from Megamind. Remember that movie? I've never seen it. I people. Get some kids. Get some freaking kids. Not yet. Wait, so what the hell's we talking about? 808s. Peter's rapping. Peter's rapping. 808s heartbreaks. Oh, see, now he's starting his freestyle career again. It's a Kanye West. Oh, really? Come on. Wait, is it more recent Kanye? Not so recent. Is it after you stopped being good? Circa 2008? nine? a while ago. Yeah, it was a while ago, man. whatever. Peter Kim does not care about Kanye West. Okay. Here we go. At Dear Dave Nastasia and Jack. And actually, Peter had a Peter had a comment on this earlier. This is last week's question. Cooks Illustrated recently ran an equipment test on carbon steel pans and concluded that they were a better choice than cast
+
+[4:23] iron for home cooks, but none of the chefs I read and listen to have ever mentioned carbon steel skillets. You and Kenji Lopez alt, both seem enamored with your cast iron. I'm enamored strong. I mean, you know, like, you know, if there was a fire, 1st of all, the cast iron would survive, but I would save my family first. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Never mind. Don't get me started on Parmigiano Reggiano. I was about to go onto a Parmigiano Reggiano rant for my honeymoon, but I won't do it. I won't do it. It won't happen. Stas is shaking her head right now. Just narrating. You like the Parmesan. You love your wife. That's what the guy said to me because I couldn't know how an Italian to say that, you know, I was like, I love the Parmigiana Red, whatever. We got a lot of free hats and Parmesan knives. Anyway, can you comment? Flush with cash from Christmas? I am trying to decide whether whether to buy a lodge cast iron pan or the carbon steel pan Cooks Illustrated recommends from
+
+[5:18] Mottfer. Uh, Mat for Bouja. You want to pronounce that with your fake French accenter? Do it Cameroonian French. I guess it would be... What? Ah, nice.
+
+[5:32] Strong. Peter K, of course, lived in Cameroon. I lived in Cameroon, guys, for 2.5 years. known liar. Wow. This one is currently sold out because of the demand generated by their review.
+
+[5:43] Please advise Alex. So here's the here's my issue. Here's my point on the deal, dealio. Current, no offense to the lodge folks, because didn't we meet them once or something like that? I wish that Lodge would come out with a set of cast iron,
+
+[5:59] um, a set of cast iron pans that had the uh, inside sanded so that it was smooth, like the old school polished cast iron, because those suckers are uh, awesome. But, um, in my opinion, uh, trying to compare the 2 uh, trying to compare the 2 styles of pans, cast iron versus uh, black steel is kind of like missing
+
+[6:22] the the point. It's like not, like, I wouldn't use them for the same for the same things. I think like the comparison, which I think also Cooks Illustrated makes is between the black steel pan, as I always call it, and
+
+[6:36] the, um, in a regular nonstick, uh, nonstick, uh, skillet, right? And so, yeah, I think they're good. I think they're very good. They cast iron and the black steel are both steel, right? I mean, not steel. They're iron fundamentally, but the surface of them both form nonstick finishes in exactly the same way. So in the same way that a wok, which is, in essence, a black steel pan, right? In the same way that a wok becomes nonstick over time, as it's seasoned. Uh, so will uh, black steel. What? They're staring at me in a very strange way. See, okay, I have to go on a tangent. I'm sorry, Alex, for not answering a question in total before I go off on this tangent, but Peter Kim. Cannot, like, sit in an auditorium or in front of a group of people and have Nastasia and I near him making faces at him because he just breaks up.
+
+[7:35] He's like freaking, uh, he's like one of those Saturday Night Live characters that like can't not laugh during a
+
+[7:40] freaking uh, so he's trying to do something like that. But it's not even phasing me. You don't understand that, like, my whole family is partially autistic, so I cannot be phased. I unfadable. You know what I mean? Looks like you're getting a little faded right now, do you? I know. I just saw it Nastasia. One quick, knowing glance. had nothing to do with that. We have a caller that's been really patient on the line. All right, call her. Okay, okay, okay. Well, take the caller and then we'll finish the black iron. Anyway, call her, you're on the air. I did Andrew from Pittsburgh here. How you doing? I'm doing well. How are you? You know who I found out lives in Pittsburgh? You know who Betty Davis is, the musician from the 70s? Yep. Yeah, she lives in Pittsburgh, I think. I think after she dropped out of the music business, she just like was like, crap on it. I'm moving. I think that's where she lives. P Burgh. Pittsburgh was named the top food city by Zigat, I believe, recently. Over New York? Yeah. Really? What do you think about that? I mean, there's a bunch of really cool restaurant himself in Pittsburgh. I know, it's definitely not better than New York. I mean, New York is the food capital of the world, but it's pretty awesome. Thank you for just crushing the Zagat on your own. I like that a lot. All right, so where are we going? What do we got? The question that I had the late 2 frozen margaritas out of the kind of a frozen margarita
+
+[8:51] slushing machine? Yep. Um, all the mixes for those are garbage, and I'm trying to figure out how to make a delicious frozen margarita, um, while having something that you can batch and have. And I'm sorry, I'm a bartender. And so having something you can bash and have around for a while, because lines go bad so quickly, even though they're very delicious, how do you make
+
+[9:10] a, um, roast margarita mix that you, excuse me, that you can hold for some period of time to be realistic to serve in a
+
+[9:18] restaurant? How long? First of all, I like the use of garbage. You're exactly right. They're garbage. We should have a garbage noise, Jack. as part of our New Year's thing, garbage. Garbage sound effect? garbage. They're like, you know, the margarita mix is garbage. Like, it just be like, you know what I mean? Anyway. I mean, you could do... No, he wants... I know, something better. I'll work on it. Anyway, Sega guy, but garbage. Garbage. Anyway, but like, so how long do you need it to last? Uh, I mean, not super, super long, but several days, you don't have to kind of, but they're babysit it all the time. I mean, probably no longer than 3 or 4 days, but, um, maybe you wouldn't really need to worry about that. The thing I'm kind of chasing down right now is just doing the limemaster that you do with Cedric Malik and Systemic acid, and then you do water, triple sex, tequila, uh, agave, a little bit of salt, and then do like a lime
+
+[10:06] acid, uh, kind of mix for that to get you the lime taste. Um, what do you think about that versus doing straight line? I mean, obviously, I would prefer to do line, but you, I mean, here's the here's the issue, right? I mean, lime uh, lime changes. obviously. The good news about frozen specs is frozen specs typically have
+
+[10:26] less because they're more diluted. Um, and because, you know, just because of their structure. They typically have less lime in them than, let's say, a shaken margarita wood, right? And so the less lime actual lime is in there, the
+
+[10:44] less of the detrimental nonsense you're going to have based on lime degradation. Right? That said, you know, it's 100% going to be noticeable. So here's the other problem you're going to have, is that if you make a batch on day one, and let's say you're going to keep it for 3 days. The batch will taste fairly the same on day 2 as it does on day
+
+[11:07] three, but it's not going to taste the same as it does on day one. And so, you know, one thing you could do is you're going to say, okay, listen, like, I'm just going to balance these, all these drinks around, uh,
+
+[11:20] like one and 2 day old lime juice, right? Because probably the difference between 2 and 3 is not going to be that big of a deal either. So if you just keep some lime juice around, uh, and then run
+
+[11:30] some, uh, batch tests on, uh, like doing your, doing your initial batch with day old lime juice and get it to taste where you want, and then you could put just the amount in that
+
+[11:40] you, uh, that you desire. Another thing you could do. It's not going to taste like a margarita is going to taste different, is to base your specs around a cordial, right? Cordial lasts forever, right? So then you take your lime juice and heat it with sugar and do your, you know, do your batching around
+
+[11:58] that. And it won't be the same because it's going to lack some of that, the brightness, right? But you could pop, you could pop back in, um, you could pop back in some of that brightness from, uh, fresh lime. Here's another thing you can do. You can use regular lime. Right, to give some of that liminess and then use a orange with lime acid added to
+
+[12:21] it. And that'll give, because the orange, sour, you know, like acid adjusted orange juice keeps its brightness longer than lime does, right? So you could do a mix with acid adjusted OJ, right? If you only have a little bit of lime in there. And orange is a flavor in margaritas anyway, right? So you could do something like that. And then, you know, you wouldn't have as much of the, um, day two, day 3 blues with the margaritas as, in fact, I've done margarita style specs that
+
+[12:54] have are entirely done with acid adjusted OJ just so that I don't have to deal
+
+[12:58] with, uh, lime juice going bad. Right. How do you deal with the orange juice becoming bitter? I was looking into the kind of actual chemistry of that a while ago, the, I'm totally spacing all the names. Right, yeah, it's totally dependent on the genetics of the particular orange you use. So, you know, as long as, you know, you run a test, like, you run a test, you juice it, and you see whether or not it goes bitter. It happens within like several hours, right? So like some some tangerines are like get incredibly bitter and, you know, some don't. I mean, the real problem from a bar perspective is that we're getting navels in, right? I mean, at least if you're like me, you're getting navels in because you're using the
+
+[13:39] peel and you're not going to get crappy looking, you know, okay, listen, everyone knows California, citrus looks
+
+[13:46] good, and Florida citrus looks terrible, even though Florida citrus is typically the one used for
+
+[13:51] juices because they don't care about peels, right? So you're not you're not going to get Florida. And it's just, it's just a question of climate. I'm not saying that the Floridians are bad people and they can't grow good citrus. climate of ugly. I mean, you know, so that, so, you know, you're not going to want to pull in like a bunch of Valencia so that you can get like the juice you want and then have to still throw away the juice from your navel.
+
+[14:13] So, like, we're very lucky the navels that we get don't go bitter. And, you know, it's just a test we've run. But then, you know, someday some knucklehead might decide to switch the supplier, get a different kind of navel in, and who knows, we'll get
+
+[14:25] hosed because I have read that some navels will get bitter, although I know ours don't. That's all that's, I mean, that's basically all I can say about that. But you're definitely going to want your orange is to do double duty. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, I hate throwing all those away, you know, whenever you're talking about that, I love finding ways to repurpose things where you've got that. Oh, yeah. And so, like, if you can use them in margarita is, right? So if you have a machine, what that tells me is that you're doing high volumes on margaritas, which means you have a use for a lot of
+
+[14:53] OJ. If you can purpose your OJ into it, you know what I mean? You're probably going to get good use and you can put a relatively large amount of OJ into a margarita to good effect
+
+[15:02] because like I said, orange is already one of the flavors that's in there. Right. So that's the direction that you would go is do LyMass with OJ, uh, and then make
+
+[15:10] sure mix around that and bounce it on day old, uh, cheers. Yeah, or like I say, try a cordial, see whether see whether you like it. Um, But yeah, I would, I would, yeah, I would go that route. And by the way, like what I would do is, uh, you know, just to save yourself some uh, time and headache, I would, I would do like 2 drink versions of all the different batches you want to try, throw them in ziplocs, and then throw them in your freezer,
+
+[15:35] uh, and then just kind of rough them up to taste them. It'll give you a good approximation for what your slushy machine will do, but you won't have to fill an entire selection machine to do it. Okay, would you do, like, a dead rabbit pork before they do the oleo and then sugar and juice? say that again? But the way that dead rabbit does there, cordial where they do an oleo with the lime, and then they do the juice and do it that way, or would you do a
+
+[15:57] different... I mean, like, like I'm real, look, we have a lot of clarified lime juice leftover, so when I do a cordial. I want it to be dead clear, like roses. So, like, I don't necessarily do it as like I would do it if I was going to have a cloudy, cordial from the ground up. So for me, it's I just do clarified lime juice, sugar, and lime peel. So I don't make an oleo and I don't extract any of that extra stuff from
+
+[16:21] it. And, um, you know, I just get a little extra punch out of out of a lime peel. But you definitely don't want to use clarified lime views for this application.
+
+[16:30] So I don't know, like, you know, uh, you know, taste the dead rabbits, and if it's, that's a flavor profile you want, then do it. Otherwise, just boil some freaking lime juice with some sugar and some lime peel in it as a 1st approximation, see which one you like better. You know what I mean? We have tons of leftover lime juice. So, and I'm sure you do too. So taking a little bit of that and just, you know, boiling it with some sugar and seeing whether you like it is like, you know, no brainer. All right, well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. No problem. Good luck. What if I just play everybody out with an 808 beats? Right? Hey, I have to say thanks to Nastasia, who got me an early birthday present, which is a DJ cheese grater.
+
+[17:07] It's a cheese grater that looks like a turntable. You want to see it? I do. Oh, my. Oh, Jiggy, Jiggy. killing me because I need the baseline to come in. Jiggy, Jiggy, Jiggy. Just drums today. We get there. right. I'm like let me see something here. So you actually wouldn't kill yourself here. You could like just get rid of some, like, you could use it for your feet. I'm not feet. You could use it for your feet. Jack, that's the beginning of southern playlist, right? Cadillac funky music. Ooh, it's similar. I think so, yeah. One of those YouTube videos. It's like, you know. All right. Oh, there you go. Oh yeah, this wasn't, that wasn't my, that's not like, that's not like my growing up sound. It's the prior stuff's my growing up sound. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so back to where we were. We were talking about Alex and Cooks Illustrated and their cast iron. So I looked up on Cook's Illustrated's website and by the way, Peter, because he's a Francophile, he likes him
+
+[18:10] these kinds of black steel pans, right? That's not because I'm a Francophile. I just, I like I like my egg pan a lot. Oh, it's great. That's why I, for me, the main thing is really, it's like the weight, right? And, you know, cast iron's great for getting a good seer on, right? But, like, I don't want to be flipping around a really heavy cast iron pandemic, my sunny side up eggs. So you're weak. That's one way to look at it. bastard. Oh man. Yeah. But that is stuff. You're gonna use you're gonna use a freaking cast iron pan to make your... Okay, you know what I have? I have because they're incredibly cheap. I have, you know, the fajita, the sizzles, the sizzle plates, like the oblong, like cast iron things. I have like 6 of those sitting right next to my stone bowls, and they seem a whole lot lighter than my Korean stone bowls do. You know what I mean? And so like I drop them on the, on the, on the, on my range and then, you know, boom, I'm off to the races. week. Just weak. I mean, like, you know, there's no way around. just weak. No, look, if you're making an omelet, you're going to be like moving the pan around. You don't want to have to deal with something super bulky. No, I think they make great omelet pants. That's my primary use for it. Yeah, I mean, fantastic omelette pans, and, you know, for most people, I think omelets and cast iron can be difficult because it takes a long time for the heat
+
+[19:26] to spread out evenly. So yeah, anyway, let's get back to what Cooks Illustrated specifically said about Black Steel, and then we'll have discussions about it. Okay. In their opinion, it sears like cast iron, a carbon steel skillet can brown food just as deeply and evenly as cast
+
+[19:44] iron. It also has 2 advantages. It heats up more quickly, and its lighter weight makes it easier to handle. What we have here is an oxymoronic statement. Yeah, the 2 things don't go alert together. Yeah, that's like saying, like, that's like saying, you know, the sky is blue, but really it's not blue at all.
+
+[20:00] Like, you can't, you can't, like, it's just the, the 2 phrases don't fit. It doesn't see her as well as cast iron, but it heats up more quickly. Yeah, it's like when Spock said, I'm alive. Well, epimenides, I guess, not really Spock. You know, I'm a liar. I'm lying. You know what I mean? You can't. It's contradiction. A carbon steel skillet cannot brown food as deeply for a given initial heat input. It's not the case. You know what I mean? It's like, and the reason is, going back to one of the purported advantages, it's lighter and heats up more quickly, right? The fact that it is lighter and heats up more quickly means it is not storing as much heat, right? Because it heated up more quickly. Therefore, it didn't store as much heat before it delivered it to your food. Otherwise it wouldn't have heated it more. And it weighs less. So it's not storing as much energy, especially because they're fundamentally similar in their heat storage properties. Now, the carbon steel is a lot better heat conductor, right, which is why it's
+
+[20:55] going to be more even for a given level of quick overheating, right? But if you really want to sear the ever-loving crap out of something, right? Nothing beats, uh, keeping your cast iron pans in a hot oven where it gets incredibly even heat and the whole thing turns into like a searing machine, then throwing it on top of a burner for residual heat and throwing meat in it.
+
+[21:17] You can't beat that. You know what I mean? And um, not that people necessarily go through that trouble. And I think that if you were searing meat, I think also a lot depends on the burners that you have, right? So, you know, I have my burners at home are ridiculous. I mean, in fact, they're not safe. It's not my fault because it's because my, you know, my wife said, you know, you're too old for this crap. We're going to hire a plumber. The plumber didn't install it properly, didn't put the proper regulator on my
+
+[21:45] oven, and so my my burners now are very hard to use on low, but they put out 8 bazillion BTUs.
+
+[21:51] You see my bill. They have a mind of their own. They're crazy. They go up and down, but when they're on screen, they scream. Like I can run a walk like a professional restaurant can because they're so freaking,
+
+[22:01] like powerful, too powerful. for most applications except for wok. Um, which I like. I like it. walk. But the, where was I going with this? So the point is, if you have a tiny burner, right, I would prefer to have a pan that heated kind of quickly and more
+
+[22:16] evenly, because you just don't have enough power to really get anything up to the temperatures that I'm going to want to do that kind of work, in which case, maybe you should consider getting a cast iron and throwing it in your oven and heating it beforehand up to a hot temperature so you can
+
+[22:30] sear. Yeah? So anyway, so we've already seen the very 1st thing, no offense to Cook's Illustrated, because, you know, the magazine in 1993 when it 1st came out was like,
+
+[22:39] like change my life. Like, honestly. Yeah, for me, it's primarily weight heat retention and then the smoothness of the surface. Yeah. Well, their next point about the black steel is performs like stainless triply, which let's just call
+
+[22:56] it all clad, let's just say, all clad, like, and all clad similar devices, right? They say carbon steel heats virtually as evenly as stainless steel
+
+[23:05] tri ply, aluminum sandwich between stainless, but can brown more deeply. Our winter costs 13rd of the price of our favorite
+
+[23:11] tri ply skillet from all clad. Right. So it costs less than all clad, but I don't really think it's going to heat as evenly. I've done many studies, but I haven't done it for years, but I've done many studies of different pans over different heat
+
+[23:24] sources, and I think, again, a lot of this depends on your burner. So in particular, induction burners, like most home crappy induction burners, where they fall flat, is the fact that the actual heating element is quite small. So what you should do to any one of your pans, or if you can test them, is, you know, McGee uses beans and paper. I use a light dusting of flour, and I put it on the hub, and I wait to see what the burn pattern is on the thing. And you can see very clearly, how even or not even a particular uh, kind of heat transfer, um, heat transfer uh, pattern is. But, I mean, I just, I like they say virtually carbon steel heats virtually as evenly. What does that even mean, virtually as evenly? means not, right? means almost as good. Anyway, as slick as non-stick. Carbon steel is as slippery as brand new nonstick, but it sears better, doesn't have a synthetic coating. Well, it does have, it's not synthetic, but it has a coating of polymerized oil. So you mean, there is, in fact, a coating on black steel pants because if there wasn't, it wouldn't be
+
+[24:27] non-stick. Steel, as it comes from the factory, is not, in fact, nonstick. You have to season it. Uh, has no uh, oven safe temperature limits. Also not true. If you stick it in the oven and you put the oven on self-clean, you'll ruin the seasoning on it and have to do it again. In fact, if you've poorly seasoned a pan, the best way to fix it is to throw it in the oven on
+
+[24:46] self-clean where it gets wiped off. What they mean is no reasonable limits. I think that's what they mean, no reasonable limits, uh, and last forever. That's true. Here are the problems with, uh, the only problems if you go into a professional restaurant and you see the black steel, if it's treated poorly, a lot of times,
+
+[25:01] um, because they are thinner than cast iron, here's where they don't work as well as cast iron. Because they're thinner, if you viciously overheat them, they warp in the center. So like a cast iron pan. I mean, a cast iron pan's never going to warp, right? Also, they talk about how cast iron's a problem because it's brittle. Have you ever seen a cast iron pan break in normal service? Nope. No, at home? No. I've seen cast iron burner spiders break all the time. So I prefer steel spiders in on an oven. You know what I'm talking about, the burner covers, you know what I'm saying? I prefer them every day. But, uh, I don't know. Like, I just sing them as different. I think if you're going to make omelets, buy you a, buy you a an omelette pan that's made of black steel, it's awesome. I'm going to also go out on a limb here and say that, like, did I ever mention Jeffrey Steingarten, you know, he always used to say, he's like, knives are like puppies, right?
+
+[25:54] Like, they're always good when they're new, right? Like, it's like, it's like how well it works like after you've had it for a while. Like, you know, does it resharpen? Does it stop pooping on your floor? you know, stuff like this, right? And I'm going to extend this out to non-stick skillets, right? So nonstick skillets, like when you 1st get them, you're like, it's awesome. And then the manufacturer tells you, yeah, you know, you know how like everyone else's
+
+[26:17] nonstick stuff like is going to wear off over time? Ours isn't. They're like, everyone else like, you know how everyone else says you can use metal tools, but you really can't. Well, and ours you can. Or, you know how everyone else says that you can't dishwash it? Yeah, nice product spokesman voice. I like that. Yeah, a new voice. Yeah, anyway, it's never true. Like, they, they always, they always crap out. They're the worst. They worst. And like they're like puppies. They're great when you get them and then they turn to crap. And so, you know, I would say that, like, in general, I, unless someone comes up with a nonstick that really freaking works, right? I'm not gonna buy them anymore. And the next time I need a nonstick pan, I will probably go out and buy a black steel pan. Just because those, I mean, those Teflon things are nonsense. Now, another thing of black steel is never going to be as good at generating, give me
+
+[27:03] your, give me your camera in French for phone, for phone. phone, give it to me. Phone. Le font. Le font. Le font. The crusty stuff at the bottom. With one syllable, there's not a lot of room for accents, Steve. Yeah, you can, because you have to add all the burbling crap beforehand. Like, do you want do you want the phone? Yeah, yeah, no, it's all right. Yeah. Uh, my point being that like, uh, non-stick is not good when you want to develop, like, some crusties, right? So if you want to emulate a, this is why you don't use non-stick like roasting pants. It will make sense. You know what I mean? So, like, if you're going to generate crusties, then I would say, you know, use your uh, use
+
+[27:43] your, your all clads, you know, or your tripods. One thing I'll say is that I got some bum advice from the interwebs on how to season my black steel
+
+[27:52] pan. No, it's talking about flaxseed oil. That's total disaster. Oh, man. Flaxseed oil should, like, so the theory of flaxseed oil is that it's a drying oil, and
+
+[28:01] therefore, you flax the same as linseed, right? I don't know. isn't it? Isn't flax the same as linseed? I have no idea. Anyways, it's a drying oil, so it gets like, it stickies up faster than other oils. That's probably, it's used in, if flaxseed oil, and just by the way, I hadn't even looked this up in a 1000000 years, but if flaxseed oil is linseed oil, it's the oil
+
+[28:21] used. the drying oil used in oil paints. Am I right on this? Can someone Google this crap? Google seems to suggest they're the same thing. Yeah. Estas is like, my hand's too cold. I can't even pick up my phone. It's not even cold outside today. I mean it is, I guess. It is relative. Anyway, point being that, so what happened? It gummed up and was a nightmare. Yeah, well, then the main thing. No, it was actually great at first, but then it starts flaking off. Yeah, if you in big flakes. If you if you improperly season, uh, and you get these layers that can separate and it's a freaking nightmare. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is why everyone like, you know, so what was the advice? did they say to do it? Well, so there's, you can look this up online. It's a well-visited site and this woman gives this very long account on the science behind seasoning pans. It's very convincing, and she suggests using flaxseed oil. And I followed her advice and screwed up my pen. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say that in my life, I mean, I can't tell you how many pants I've seasoned,
+
+[29:18] but, you know, dozens, many dozens. You know what I mean? And, um, I have never purchased in my life a special anything to do it. You know, I always do it like, uh, and like in one of 2 ways, either like on the burner or in the
+
+[29:37] oven. I think one of the main issues that people have is over oily, trying to get it all done at once. So like, you know, get a rag. And, you know, soak the rag in oil, do the wipe, let it sit, wipe it out, let it let it polymerize, and do it again and again and again. And I've, you know, it's been a long time since I've ruined one. I ruined the initial work, the initial seasoning. went too thick on a crate maker that I bought like 15, 16 years
+
+[30:09] ago, because when you buy a crate maker, the real ones, the crampose ones, they've actually machined a
+
+[30:15] spiral, snail-like groove all the way around the thing that's supposed to build up an oil coating over time because crate makers have to be incredibly
+
+[30:24] non-stick. And I tried to do it too fast. And so I got flakies that never kind of went away. It still works, but it's like a little unsatisfying because you get those little divots and pits in
+
+[30:33] the, uh, in the non, but still works. But yeah, yeah. A friend of mine just came. He like, I messed up my walk. I overseason it, now it's got big, you know, I try to season it with too much oil at once and it's got big drips in the bottom of the pan.
+
+[30:46] He's like, what should I do? It was like, your SOL. This is why, by the way, if you're buying something that needs to get seasoned, don't buy one that has a handle on it that can't go in the
+
+[30:55] oven because by far and away the easiest way to start from scratch is to just burn off the old
+
+[31:02] seasoning and you can't do it. Uh, you shouldn't do it with a torch or anything. It's uneven unless it's like a cast iron and you can't do it if there's a wooden handle on it, you can't take off. You can't throw it in the oven and put it on self-clean if it's got a wooden handle, like dir. You know what I mean? Hey, I got some clarification of flaxseed and linseed from a Joel Stob in the chat room. So they're both extracted from seeds of the plant, leanum... can't say that word. Anyway, flaxseed oil is pure and fit for human conception. Lindseed oil goes through a refinement process and may contain additives that improve its paint cleaning
+
+[31:34] properties. So don't cook with linseed oil, but cook with flaxseed. That way. All right, nice. Thank you. All right, so should we take a commercial break and come back with it? Yeah, let's do that. Today's program was brought to you by Firesider. Did your grandmother ever tell you to drink raw apple cider vinegar? It's good advice and more common than you may think. For generations of New Englanders. A tot of vinegar was a morning ritual. Taken daily, a tablespoon of unfiltered apple cider vinegar can help support immune
+
+[32:10] function and digestive functions. To the base of certified organic apple cider vinegar, fire cider added whole raw certified organic oranges, lemons, onions, ginger, horseradish, habanero pepper,
+
+[32:23] garlic and turmeric. They let this mixture steep for 6 weeks at room temperature, to preserve the living vinegar culture and delicate flavors of the ingredients. Lastly, they blend a generous helping of raw wildflower honey into the mix. The result is potent but balanced, offering layers of sweet, tart, and spice. Firesider tastes great on its own, or as in addition to tea, juice, or salad, firesider ships direct from their online store and is available at over 500 locations nationwide. Use their store locator to find one near you and ask for a free sample. For more information, visit firesider.com. All right, we are back. Hey, so Jack, have we ever tasted this stuff? No. I want to drive some. Yeah, me too. Tast what? I'll tell you something, my grandma never told me anything about Apple Cider Vander. She was just like, why don't you go work? Why don't you do some work? Why don't you get? Yeah, same. do some freaking chores. How come I didn't have a grandma that gave me apple cider vinegar? No, my grandma was like, you know, why aren't you, if you can sit, like, my grandma, well, one of my 2 grandmas, absolutely hated the act of reading.
+
+[33:29] And it was like one of my favorite things to do is like read and like learn. And she, the things she could stand on Earth least was seeing people trying to learn. And so she would, you know, anytime you try to... Yeah. Anytime you try to sit down with a book, she would like just, and my grandpa, one of the reasons he was bitter until the day he died was that he also loved to read and grandma would
+
+[33:54] never, ever, ever, ever let him read. If he had only lived long enough for like, you know, audible to exist, if he could just listen to that stuff while he was toiling away in the
+
+[34:04] freaking, uh, in the freaking yard for no apparent reason. You know what I'm saying? I know what you were saying. Like, you know, you know, anyway, whatever. So anyway, my my grandma, not apple cider, uh, and my other grandma was from West Virginia, so, you know, it was more... Yeah, it was more like, uh, yeah, so it was more like, uh, have some country ham and some, uh, and some lard. You know what I mean? That was the kind of cure all. country ham and lard. Uh, although, you know, they didn't have a lot of lard in the, you know, when I was hanging out with her in the 70s, 80s, that was already kind of day
+
+[34:37] class A, but we did have a lot of country ham, and she did enjoy herself some red-eye gravy, which is delicious. Okay. Uh, and we have a note from Ben from last week saying it's Lutfisk season in Minnesota. I remember Dave mentioning the slimy fish dish once on cooking issues, and he's pointing out to us that we can go to CBS, Minnesota, did a finding Minnesota, taste of
+
+[34:59] Lootfisk. I'm going to go look that up and see what that, you like Lute Fist? Did you like that when we made it before? I remember it. Well, we didn't actually make the Lute Fisk. What we did is we made we made the lye eggs, remember? And then we served it with regular fish and it was kind of with nils. It was kind of a lute fisk turned on its kind of head. You know what I mean? But it's like lie, treated, basic treated fish. Speaking of which, if there is anyone who can hear my voice who's an expert on clearing and staining. Remember clearing and standing, we try to give someone to do that. So in clearing and stating what you do, is you use a base base. I believe, well, just much like the one in the 808. Only this one's more potassium hydroxide. And you soak something like a fish in this base. It like kind of like messes with the proteins, you can leach out all of the color and everything in in something like a fish, right? And then you introduce stains to it. And you can selectively by using different, uh, like stains that are used also like in slides. You can have like the nervous system, suck up a certain color, and the skeletal system suck up another, and then leach it back out of the muscular tissues, and you have these amazing
+
+[36:02] 3D, like fish and other animals. There's a book on it, but wouldn't you love to be able to clear and stain something big, like a whole
+
+[36:09] striper so that you could see all the structure of the striper? be pretty baller, right? Maybe for the museum. So if there's anyone out there who knows how to clear and stay. Now, typically they don't do it on such large things, which is why the pictures are small fish and frogs. But if someone wants to take on clearing and standing or know someone that can help us out with large clearing and standing,
+
+[36:28] that would be. Sweet. Oh, by the way, Dave, speaking of bases, you've got your, want to plug your program coming up at the museum on February 4th. You're playing with Johnny Hunter. Nice. Down acids and bases. What am I doing? You're doing basses. He's doing it. Yeah. So, so yeah, on programs.mofed.org, February 4. Come see Dave. How much is it? It's 45 bucks. 45 bucks? Tastings, drinks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what do we know what Johnny's going to make? I don't know. We've got it down somewhere. It's on the website. Johnny, Johnny, our good friend from Madtown. Yeah, yeah, underground meets. We don't know where we don't know what he's going to do. He's going to be something awesome. Yeah, it's going to be great. Do we know what I'm going to do? Probably not till the morning up. It's going to be good people. something bad basic, yo. It's going to be good. I'm gonna maybe I'll bring my next to Mattic. Maybe we'll do some next normalization. Oh, hey, Patrick. No, that's not, that's not. That's bordering on. That's not Patrick. Peter, you're the only guy who's allowed to imitate Patrick on the on the network. That's, you know. Okay. Hello, Dave and Crew, longtime listener and fan. I'll cut straight to the Chase, my Chase, my fiance and I are planning a wedding this coming fall or perhaps summer, and are on a fairly limited budget.
+
+[37:39] We've already identified numerous cost cutting measures, but remain a fair amount above our goal. While I am not suggesting that we personally prepare a full food and beverage program for 140
+
+[37:50] people, I was curious if it might be possible to make a meaningful dent in the total cost. I have a fair amount of equipment. I've picked up at auctions over the years listed below. And power shouldn't be an issue. So let's see what they got here. They got, uh, this is John, by the way, in Portland. Three circulators. The SA circulator. Circle later. Circle later. or Portland, Maine. Maine. Maine. Come on. Uh, I don't know why I say, come on. But like, I don't know, I don't know why I say, come on. I don't know. Portland, Maine, Portland, Maine. because Maine was in my head. That why I say, come on. Three circulators, one Randell FX, uh, fridge freezer, one VACMaster, VP 112,
+
+[38:30] one £20 CO2 tank with regulator, one Paco jet. Man, there's a high rent. You're like, ah, I got like a £20 CO2 tank, yep, and a paco jet. It's like, boom, Paco jet. You know what I'm saying? Pocket jet. I would love to have a pocket jet. One sears all, not yet, but soon. One grindmaster, 875 coffee grinder, although I don't know if you're going to use that. At least they're going to make a lot of coffee. Aren't there coffee gars? Coffee course? Coffee time? Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, but like, but that's, you know, that, I mean, yeah, I mean, you still need to brew the coffee for everything unless you're going to do like some sort of weird. Anyway, 2 vitamixes and like a bunch of Weber charcoal grills. Well, yeah, I mean, you're in good shape on equipment there, except for like you're pretty low on, well, I guess if you do everything on Weber, hot side, I see your point. Anyway, we have a good number of volunteers who would be able to assist with prep. However we personally would want to handle the serving and set up on the actual wedding day. I realize this is a potentially disastrous idea. I almost didn't bother asking, but I have the nagging feeling it might be possible to sous vide
+
+[39:31] a good amount of food beforehand and simply reheat it before and during the
+
+[39:34] ceremony or batch some cocktails the day before or not. No. What the hell? No, dude. John, don't do it, brother. Don't do it, man. Just get married. Yes, Jesus. It's not going to turn out. Tim in the chat room has an answer. saving money. Stop buying Paco Jets.
+
+[39:59] Boom, boom, boom. Look, here's my point, right? Do not do not cook at your wedding. Don't. Now, listen, here's the other thing. I'm going to tell you this right now, is like, is that everything, everything is going to depend on a few decisions that you're about to make in your life, right?
+
+[40:18] No, I mean, in terms of the wedding, not in terms of life in general. Once you fall into the wedding trap, like you are host, you are you are completely, you are host, right? So, like, the question is how far do you fall in? Here's where you're wrong. You're thinking, uh, I've thrown parties for large groups of people, so I can just throw this like I'm throwing a party. But remember, the last time you threw a party where you cooked, the best part about that was you didn't have to interact with your
+
+[40:44] guests. That's why cooks like to throw parties because they can have lots of people around, but they don't have to interact with them. They can sit around cooking and have marginal interactions. Hey, hey, how's the food? Oh, great. Bye. See you. You know what I mean? And then just get and then just get back to their kitchens and cook, right? I mean, that's like, even in an open kitchen situation, when you're sitting there sweating a bunch of pants and flicking around, no one expects more than a 52nd response from you at
+
+[41:06] best. It's genius for someone who's kind of a social moron. You know what I mean? You get to look social and not be. At a wedding, you actually need to be social. I'm sorry. Clearly, he doesn't want to be. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's not about you. The wedding. You think the wedding's about you, but it's not, right? So here's the thing. It's about your family coming in. Like, you're going to have to spend time going from table to table, even if you don't have... It's not
+
+[41:31] a, like, but don't, the other thing is, is that you're not even going to have time to think about food if you fall into all the traps. Like, I got to get this, 1st of all, you're going to have some
+
+[41:40] some form of like, you know, man of matron of honor of people, honor guard, whatever
+
+[41:45] the honor role, whatever they call the, whatever they call these people nowadays who are standing there up on the stage with you. They're going to have to do a bunch of bull crap, right? Like right before the wedding, there's all these little gazzies that you have to freaking do to get married. Like, I got to get this thing. I got to have this old thing, this borrowed thing, this new thing, this blue thing. All this crud is going to conspire to make it very difficult for you to focus on the fact that you need to crank out a dinner for
+
+[42:10] 140 people and it needs to be good, right? Because your mom or whatever, you know, is flying in, you know, your crazy
+
+[42:19] uncle Ralph from Jersey's flying in. Uncle Diamond, he was dead, but by the time I got married, but yeah, I mean, Uncle Diamond could be coming in. Dave's not speaking from experience at all. It's all theoretical. I had enough problems. I made my cake stand because I was like, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a cake stand for my wedding. So I was welding my cake stand like a couple days before the wedding and also underneath the 67 valiant that we drove to the wedding
+
+[42:43] in, like making sure that it wouldn't break down between the church and, and, you know, my uncle's house where the reception was, but even that was like a little bit of a stretch.
+
+[42:51] Look, if you can pre-batch your cocktails a week in advance, a week in advance, and you have
+
+[42:58] someone you trust, who for some reason was not invited to the wedding, and yet you trust them enough to make cocktails for you without pay, then imagine
+
+[43:06] that. Imagine finding someone that you would trust to make the cocktails at your wedding that is not
+
+[43:12] invited. Have them do the cliff old fashioned. Right, but I'm saying you still need someone to do it for you, right? Because don't make the cocktails. But if you can make them a week in advance, yeah, I can give you some recipes that are easy to bust out
+
+[43:22] in like large fashion to go around, but also, here's a secret. Everyone wants champagne at the freaking wedding. You know what I mean? Like just pour a lot of freaking champagne, have some cocktails beforehand. Look, when I got married, like, like, we went super cheap. One of the ways we went super cheap was we did brunch instead of
+
+[43:39] dinner because you could put on a decent brunch a lot cheaper than you could put on a decent dinner.
+
+[43:44] People don't get as hosed. even my friends don't get as hosed, and you just pour like an unbelievable amount of cava, and everybody's, everybody's happy. You know, if you have some form of bubbly, pretty much everyone's going to be happy. And then it's just a question of getting it all iced down and you can just keep eyes on to make sure it's right.
+
+[44:00] And as to whether or not to do sous vide and finishing, yeah, I mean, that's the ultimate way to do it, but don't do it yourself. Don't do it yourself. Don't do anything that requires you to spend a lot of time that you can't finish more than a week before your wedding. That's my. Save money and make a great playlist and maybe skip the DJ for that track. Whoa, Jack telling people to skip the DJ. huh? Well, they get expensive. Wedding DJs are expensive. I know this because I secretly wish I was one. By the way, John also seconds having some sort of transcripts for
+
+[44:32] the cooking issues. I'm being told that we're being ripped off the air. However, I do have something next week for trying to get around cooking detectors, right? So, you know, we all know that we hate smoke detectors, but we also hate dying in conflagrations. So we have a question about that, which I'll deal with next time, and I guess that's it. I'm not in next week, so you'll have Liz. I'll be in New Orleans really drunk. What? Sorry. Oh my god, we're going to have a week without molecules. A show with no molecules. will you do? frowning face cooking issues.
+
+[45:13] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. 3rd generation curemasters producing the country's best dry cured and aged hams, bacon, and sausage. For more information, visit
+
+[0:12] edwardsvam.com. I'm Erica Watt, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you live on the Heritage for New Network, broadcasting every week
+
+[0:42] from on from when? About 12? Time to now. 1209, 1209, roughly 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network in Birdsburg, Brooklyn. Roberta's Pizzeria. As usual, join in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. good. We got Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. How you doing, Peter? Yet again. Hey, what's up? You become like a, you become like the 3rd co-host. I kind of like that You know, on the chat room, you should write in whether you enjoy having, you know, Peter here. He called himself, before the show started, an abuse sponge. Remember that, Stus? An abuse sponge, and Nastasi and I noted, Nastasi adding the salient point, of course, that the problem with the sponge is, is that whatever you soak up with a sponge, in this case,
+
+[1:29] abuse gets wrung back out on onto you again in the sink, but plus that nasty smell from the sponge. Yeah, and it gets progressively worse until the sponge just falls apart. Yeah, and you try to wash it in the dishwasher, you try. And somehow it, the stank never fully goes away. You know what I mean? Stays with the sponge. So the rest of the sponge is life. Well, where are you in a sponge's life? First of all, what kind of sponge are you, Peter? Do you have that, like, abrasive layer on the one side that gets all peeled up and nasty, the fake scotch bright? Are you a real scotch bright or chore boy or equivalent? Are you the kind that you buy in large plastic sacks that are fake? You know, abrasive on one side, yellow on the other. Wow. Yellow sauce. Whoa. For those of you that don't know Peter's Chinese. Wow, so racist. Here we go. Peter actually, Korean. Anyways. And joined not today in the engineering booth. There's no Jackie molecules in the engineering booth. But we have Liz, which is very nice. How you doing, Liz? I'm great. I'm glad that we're getting off to a grand start today. Yeah? Well, at least it's a start, right? You know, at least we're not dead yet, Rice does? It's true. Yeah. Never know. Never know. Remember, like my favorite, uh, remember back when people say like, uh, you know, uh, what kind of dishwasher? yeah, we have a dishwasher. His name is Carmelo. I loved Carmelo. He was my favorite, like, one of my favorite human beings at the FCI. His favorite thing to say was you'd say, how you doing? And he'd say, fine, for now. And because, you know, and you would always say, tomorrow you never know. And he died. Yeah. Awkward silence Well, I mean, you know? It happens. The good news is not only has it happened to the best of us, it also happens to the worst of us. Call your questions in two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Uh, big news stars. An actual friend of mine, right? Who's like, you know, not in the food business, an architect, in fact, you know, our kids hang out together. came over to my house. You ready for this? Cooked a meal with a vajetti. Yeah, 1st of all, he bought some weird, like, knockoff Chinese. That's the exact one. He came over. He's like, I bought this thing that cuts vegetables
+
+[3:50] into like little strips. I mean, I was like, you mean the jetty? I'm like, I'm familiar. And he goes, no, no, no. It's like it's like a peeler that was modified to be veggetti like. So I was like, look, look, you know, I have the real, there's no use. you don't need to like, because it couldn't spiral. It couldn't make a continuous spiral. It could only go the length of the zucchini or the length of the cucumber because it didn't rotate. It had no rotating facility. She still had a middle. Worse even than that. Basically, it's like a peeler. shunk, shunk, shunk, shunk, shunk. So unless you were like, unless you were a rotational genius, unless you were doing it the way, for instance, that like you use an Isuba to cut a vegetable into sheets, you would always end up with a very short noodle.
+
+[4:33] So he, and he came over and cooked a dish with my least favorite vegetable, which
+
+[4:38] is... Zucchini. Yeah. Like, blossoms, great, vegetable crap. He literally came over to my house and cooked noodles with it. I was like, listen. I was like, listen, I don't have any cheese. So he's like, the recipe doesn't need cheese. And I was like, not only are you going to give me zucchini noodles. There's not gonna be any like cheese or anything on it. So what was it, what was it? Well, thankfully, he is not one of these anticarb nut jobs. And so it was a mixture of zucchini and actual pasta. Which is actually an interesting idea because the zucchini is soaking up a sauce into flavors and stuff, and he fried it. So, like, he fried the zucchini... what you're supposed to do. That's what the veggie people say to do? I doubt the veggie people will fry stuff. is like, I just write it because it's healthier. Because you're eating a healthy squash and it's fried. So it's okay because it's fresh and it's right. What? Wait, wait. Do that again, but have it make sense. It's okay if it's fried because it's squash and squash is healthy, no matter how you prepare it. is her reasoning. Squash is solidified water with some mildly vegetal taste. It is a sponge. It's not like chicken. Fried chicken. No, it's not like chicken. No, it is most definitely not like chicken. It makes no sense. It makes no sense. I don't believe that frying is necessarily unhealthy, but I don't believe
+
+[5:58] that, like, it's like all these, like, weird tit for tat things. You know what I mean? Like, well, uh, I'm gonna go on the treadmill so that I can pound 50 Snickers bars. The hell is that? It doesn't make any sense, right? Edith Snickers bar. If you want a Snickers bar, work out if you want to work out. They're unrelated. Fry your squash if you think it tastes good. Don't fry your squash because somehow that lets you fry something as though fried squash is going to be as good as fried chicken, which is not. Although it was good in this case. Does anyone there, does anyone in the world think that fried squash is as good as fried chicken? those of you who eat chicken. Anyone? Anyone? No. No, you don't. Like tempura? I mean, like, look, there are like, okay, look. Like if I was going to deal with zucchini and try to make it as good as possible, right? I would squish the ever loving hell out of it like you would with an eggplant, right? Right? So that you would get rid of all of the sponginess of it, if you were going to fry it. And then I would somehow batter it and try to make a nice texture out of zucchini and then batter it. So it didn't become. See, I'm not afraid of oil, but who likes like oil sponges? Who likes to eat non-crunchy oil sponges? You see, like the batter of a properly fried thing absorbs a whole hell of a lot of oil, right? But it is what? It is what? What is it? Crunchy, right? It is crunchy. So it is delicious. You know, I like zucchini? Core it. Keep it whole, core it, stuff it with meatball. That sounds good. That's good. That sounds good. Well, it's like a non-bitter version of stuffed bitter melon. You like bittermelon? No. Why? Peter Kim is making his shrug his shrug shoulder because she's racist. Like, that's his little thing. Look, I'm showing solidarity with all sponge-like vegetables out there. Wait, do you like bitter melon though? Yeah, I like bitter moan. Do you? I also like zucchini. What? In any in any guys? When someone serves you, when someone hands up and is like, I saw a tank, you show up at their house and I go, I saw
+
+[7:59] Cade zucchini for you. Yeah, that's my side contribution to your dinner party. Yeah, I know you bought meat or something that tastes good. Expensive. Yeah. I know that like someone else brought wine, something that's delicious and it's going to make your conversation tolerable. But like, but like you're like, you know, what did I bring? I brought burnt on the outside, yet still soggy and oil soaked, rancid zucchini product. right? How many times out of 10 when you get zucchinis, that what you get? Always. Oh, nobody else, they don't know what to do. And on that note, we have a collar. All right, caller. You were on the air. Hey, Dave, Natasha, Jackie, everybody. Um, hey, I was just curious if you'd be willing to share maybe some uh, weeknight staples for uh, for your listeners. Yeah, I'm a, a father of 2 young girls and, um, you know, always looking for ideas on quick dinners to knock out that are
+
+[8:51] delicious. I'm familiar with your, uh, you know, your steak and the garlic bread deal and whatnot. But, uh, yeah, I'd be curious, uh, what what you like to knock out. How old are your girls? Uh, I get a 4 year old and a 9 month old, but uh, the 4 year old
+
+[9:05] eat, eat just about anything so far. Hey, let me, uh, well, good. So you're not in a picky situation yet. I mean, most of my choices are actually based on how picky, uh, you know, especially my older kid, but did, how many months is the young one? Uh, she's nine. So she's starting to eat a little bit of some solid foods here. Listen, before I go into your question, have you heard the fantastic new news that now they say that everything they told
+
+[9:29] you, go online. Don't take my word for it, everything that they told you about not having of not exposing kids to potential allergens is exactly wrong. The new wisdom. So for years, including when my kids were little, I wasn't allowed to expose them early on to things that might be allergens, even though at the
+
+[9:47] time, I was like, this is a load of crap. I was like, not only is this a load of crap, intuitively, it is a load of crap, intuitively, you want to expose the kids to a bunch of
+
+[9:58] everything such that they can kind of hack it as we go on. This is the, you know, this is the, uh, you know, we killed almost everyone on this continent with
+
+[10:07] our, with our blankets full of like, disease kind of thing that, like, constant exposure to low levels of things from a young age seems to make you more invulnerable to them later, right?
+
+[10:16] So, right. So now they've come out and said that, yes, in fact, with the exception of honey,
+
+[10:23] uh, which, you know, you could get botulism from, uh, you know, feed them feed them everything from an even earlier age than we thought before. Uh, you know, we hate to be the ones here that said, we always freaking thought that. The sad thing is that I couldn't act on it when I had kids because if I was, you know, you're not a doctor. What do you know? You know what I mean? I mean, if you're wrong and your kids end up with some hardcore allergy, they're going to be like, well, it's because dad thought he knew best and didn't feed him freaking peanut
+
+[10:49] butter like you're supposed to. But now they're like, in fact, the allergies are caused by this kind of stuff. you been reading this? I have not, but yeah, no, it makes sense though. Yeah, look into it. Again, like, uh, do not mistake cooking issues for medical advice, but look it up. You know what I mean? It's a fantastic new thing because I have a new niece in the family and yeah, we're all remarking on that. In fact, last night at dinner. So, uh, so apparently you're a meat eater. Yeah, I do have a circulator. Do you have a rice cooker? I do, I do. So, like, I use, I do a lot of stuff, uh, with the rice cooker just because it, it holds things so
+
+[11:28] well. So, you know, you can bust out at any point, like, right when you get home, you can throw, like, any sort of thing that cooks in the rice cook. In fact, I'm kind of lying. I dont really tend to cook finished dishes in the rice cooker. I tend to have, um, I have a bunch of Korean stone bowls, the
+
+[11:45] Tolsos, and like they're super fast to bust stuff out on. Problem is, is they're not kid friendly. You know what I mean? So usually what I'll do is just have like a boatload of rice and then I'll take whatever I have in the fridge left over from the last couple of
+
+[11:57] days. I'll hack that stuff up and throw it into the stone bowl with like a quickly improvised sauce because I always keep in my pantry,
+
+[12:06] like depending on what kind of moods I'm in, cans of coconut milk, cans of tomato paste, like, you know, a bunch of stuff that I can just bust out sauces quickly, crack an egg into it with a tulsa, but it requires you buying
+
+[12:15] tulsa, which is probably not what you want to do. And again, your kids can't really have that. I don't know, Styles, what do you like for quick? Pasta. Yeah, Stas is a pasta queen. It sounds like pasta, pasta, pasta queen. But the kids get sick of pasta after a while. I wouldn't know. Because you never get sick of it? Because I don't have kids and I don't get sick of it. You never get sick of pasta? No. Ever. No. Never. Because there's lots of ways you can... Back before I had kids. And even when I had kids, one kid, when I was used to live on 38th Street and my pasta machine was out, I was in a routine where twice a week I would make pasta,
+
+[12:51] mean, like make it. Uh, and I, you know, I would ignore all the relaxing steps when you were rolling it out and so I could, I could make pasta by the time the water was boiling.
+
+[13:01] That was fun because it gives me a sense of accomplishment and it's like a fresh pasta thing, but it can be done in under in under 45 minutes. I mean, the thing is, honestly, now it's
+
+[13:12] like, by the time I'm done working and, you know, my wife is home, I really only have 15 to 20 minutes to cook dinner.
+
+[13:21] I mean, like, you know, Rachel Ray with her 30 minute meals. I don't know where she has the luxury of such time. You know, it's like 15 to 20 is about the limit. So, like, that's why a lot of pre-cooking is really good. We got into habit. Um, uh, you know, a couple of months ago, we sadly fell out of it
+
+[13:38] where, like on a Saturday or a Sunday, uh,
+
+[13:42] we'd or, you know, we'd roast 2 chickens instead of one, right? Because it doesn't take any more energy to roast 2 chickens than one. And then, um, you know, we would do the old school rip apart the carcass, maybe, you know, maybe make a broth, do some chicken salads, do some stuff like that.
+
+[13:58] And now even on Sundays, like if I'm, you know, up in Connecticut, I'll bust out the tandor and I'll always make extra of everything and then use the leftovers. Like a really good leftover. Like, oh, I know I said it before in the radio show, but seriously, like show up at home, throw the potatoes in the oven.
+
+[14:13] Baked potato bars so freaking delicious. So delicious. And we'd all, everyone has forgotten how delicious the baked potato bar is. had that last night. You did? I love it. You didn't tell me that. How was it? Good night, good. You know what I bought a couple weeks ago? okay you ready for it? Bakos. I went out and bought the I went full 70s and got bakos. What are bakos? Bacon bits. Bacon bits. Bacos, texturized vegetable protein in the form of bacon bitlets. And it brought back some good memories. Dax, who did not grow up on them, thought they were crap. thought they were garbage. I enjoy them. Anyway, so baked potato bar is good. And if you do make the baked potato bar, save a couple of extra because if you chip those, they fry fantastically very quickly later without any
+
+[14:55] pre-prep, even after they've been, especially after they've been refrigerated. Is any of this helpful? Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Well, let us know if you come up with anything good. Send it on in, you know, to the questions. We talk about it on Eric, et cetera, et cetera. Call back, tell us your experience. And remember, now you can feed your kids everything. Yay. Okay. You know, like seriously, that's like a big one for me. Anyway, all right, thanks a lot. Okay. Let's see. I had some unanswered questions. What? What? I just like looking at Peter. Oh, what is Peter doing with his shirt? He's just mocking me. Well, yes. Okay. So I had some questions that went unanswered last week, and my phone is not wanting me to see what they are. Uh, okay. I just moved into a new apartment, a decent, if a little shabby, pre-war building, aren't they all, right? Aren't they all like, are you not in a pre-war building? No, nope. 70s. 70s. So does 70s buildings have like all the roaches and stuff that are pre-work? No? No? What about the, what floor are you on? Six. So it's too high for the giant water bugs. I guess so, yeah. You never see the giant water bugs that high unless I guess it's like a really old building. What about you, Peter? You get the giant water bugs? You're in a shabby pre-war building. You just get the mini roaches? Yeah, get roaches. Yeah. Oh, Liz, while I'm talking about this. Is it possible to get Sam Edwards on the phone? Let me work on it. Because I have a question that he can answer. See whether he can. I'm not saying because I didn't call. I didn't know ahead of time that he was going to be the sponsor, but since Sam Edwards is sponsoring the show, and I have a question on country hams, if he wants to spend a couple of minutes on the phone with us towards the end of the program, we
+
+[16:38] can, you know, let me see what I can do. All right. Just moved into a shabby pre-war building in Brooklyn, the kitchen is new and that's nice, but there's one major drawback. As with most New York City apartments, there is no hood over the stove, and every time I try to roast a chicken or sear a steak, um,
+
+[16:58] oh my god, my phone, when I was trying to move it, thought I wanted to define the word steak. I know where the steak is, iPhone, jerk. Every time I try to roast a chicken or sear a steak, the hard wired smoke detectors go off. I thought maybe I could recalibrate them, but no dice. I've opened windows, employed fans, but nothing I seem to do prevents the problems. Do you have any advice short of moving? This is driving me effing nuts. Uh, thanks, uh, Matt Banbury. Okay. Yeah, it's a it's a big, big problem. Like the laws are that we have to have a smoke detector. But the problem is, is that smoke detectors are not designed with kitchens in mind and...
+
+[17:37] They install them over the stove. Well, there's, I mean, some people's apartments, like you got your stove, you got your bed. You know what I mean? It's like, there's no logical kind of separation. And it's true that some places, even with the windows wide open and like a fan in them, which I recommend, they're still
+
+[17:57] going to go off. Now that, you know, look, there's a couple of ways around this, you know, you can, uh, certain manufacturers of cooking detectors, as you know, I like to call them, have a button on it called a hush
+
+[18:13] button, right? And a lot of them do. And yours might, you might not know about it. So the thing that says, uh, the test button on it, right? So some manufacturers, and you can look up online, you can look up yours. I know, like, I think the brand Kitty, you know, makes some that do this, where if you press the button once,
+
+[18:33] right? Just press it. It will beep, it will go beep once at you, and for the next 8 to 10 minutes, depending on the detector, it is not
+
+[18:42] going to go off, right? based on what you're on what you're doing. unless it has what they call, and I'm going to put this in air quotes
+
+[18:50] that you can't see because you can't see me, but excessive smoke.
+
+[18:55] So basically it goes from being a cooking detector to a, yo, this is really messed up detector. Now that, problem is I, many times my life would set this off. And let me just go on a little bit of a rant here for a 2nd because as I was looking this crap up. I was getting so angry about it. The cooking people, people who manufacture these cooking detectors and the idiots who talk about them online. Assume that the only time you make smoke is when you're doing something improper in the kitchen. False. False. There are many cooking techniques that, when done properly, create boatloads of smoke. Do you know what I'm saying? Have they been to a traditional kitchen? Do they only eat bull crap, like made in like 50s style with no freaking crust, no freaking texture, no freaking Zaz, no freaking
+
+[19:45] life? It is not only when you are making a mistake in the kitchen, you create smoke. And this is the error that causes people to create cooking detectors because people don't cook. People are bad, right, at cooking. Dave, I've got 2 ideas. So one is, this is a solution I employ at my place. I have a small Weber gas grill that I got that I use if I need to do some really heavy, like smoky stuff, and that I can put right by the window and have the fans suck the air right out. That's one thing. don't put it outside your window, do you? No, I don't put outside the window. But I set up a table right in front the window with, you know, I have that big window fan. And then I'll set up a cross, you know, a crossbreeze thing going from the other side of the apartment and then grill right in front of the fan and the smoke goes right out. Is it a good, also a good point is that you have to figure out what the air patterns are in your
+
+[20:34] apartment. So like my current, my current apartment, the air pattern, come, unfortunately, the natural direction is to come into the kitchen. But my old apartment, the natural direction was to go out of the kitchen. So that's one of the things to do. I'm lucky that I have my kitchen sits in between 2 windows on opposite ends of the
+
+[20:52] apartment. So when I have the fan going on one side, then I usually don't have
+
+[20:56] problems with that. It's generally neutral. Generally there's no flow. It'll flow through. The smoke will flow. Whichever direction? The smoke will come out of my oven or whatever and go out. Yeah, so we have to test which way the air wants to, you know, which way your cross ventilation works. So that, you know, that's definitely one thing. Here's something I don't recommend doing, although it's all over the internet, is
+
+[21:14] a plastic bag, rubber bands, or a shower cap over your smoke detector while you're cooking because the
+
+[21:21] part it's measuring particulates, right? So you can put that over it and the particulates can't get to it, but you have to seal pretty well for it, for it to work. And a good number of people have had success with that. But the problem is, is now you're literally shutting down your detector so that when you go to sleep, if something's going on, you have
+
+[21:38] a problem. But back to our other things. Some, and yours might already have it, have this thing where you can tell the smoke detector, I'm cooking, don't go off for like only 8
+
+[21:50] minutes. I don't know who can only cook for 8 minutes, but that's reasonable. Most of the time when the smoke's happening, it's like high intensity, short duration stuff, right? Um, You know, Barbara Kafka in her book, Roasting, right? Which started the kind of super high temperature roasting kind of phenomenon in people's houses. How the hell are you not going to have smoke when you're busting your oven up at 45,500. How you gonna do it? No matter how you cook, jerks. Anyway, the other thing is, is that maybe you can, if your smoke detector doesn't have that, maybe you can replace a smoke detector with one that does.
+
+[22:18] You know, but I'm hesitant to tell you anything that's going to actually shoot your smoke detector in the head permanently, right? I mean, obviously, you know, like I have removed my smoke detectors and
+
+[22:31] uh, forgotten to put them back in like, and I've unwired hardwired ones, but it's not really advisable. It's not good. Don't do it. You know what I mean? Get one that has this, um, this cooking detect undo. You know what's messed up, Styles? I was going to recommend buying a nest. You know, the nest ones, Nest Protect, because they're controlled from your phone. But what's weird is, is from what I can tell, currently the way the firmware works, when you press, it'll go
+
+[22:56] off, and then you press don't, and it will, it will then stop. There's no way to say, don't go off. I am doing something. You know what I mean? Like, like antivirus. Like when you have an antivirus, it's like turn off your antivirus for 15 minutes because I'm installing a program.
+
+[23:14] Like, apparently Nest hasn't figured this out yet. And even worse on the nest, is that if you have multiple nests and they're interwired, which all hardwired smoke detectors are supposed to be interwired
+
+[23:23] now. So the reason being that if a smoke detector goes off in your kitchen, and because clearly you live in some sort of like 4 story suburban mansion,
+
+[23:30] right, you're in your room, you're not going to hear it at night. They want your smoke detector in your room to go off as well. So they're all interwired now. That's how the codes are. But so if your nest goes off in the kitchen, it'll also go off in your bedroom, which is apparently
+
+[23:44] irritating. Whatever. But Nest is something that could do that. Like if Nest like thought about cooks a little more, they could have a, I'm, you know, I'm cooking now, shut up for 15 minutes because you don't need a smoke detector when you're awake.
+
+[23:58] Anyway. So do you think we gave enough ideas on what to do with this? Yeah? All right. We do have a caller. Oh, all right, caller, you are on the air. Hey, babe, this is math from Mystic, Connecticut. Oh, hey, Mr. Connecticut, where are mystic are you? Uh, I am on the, so you know, technically the stomach inside of the river. I do, which is, you know, the other side of the drawbridge. Yeah. Yeah, the other side, the other side of the Mystic Bascule Bridge. The other side of the Mystic Bascule Bridge, yes. That's right. Yeah. So I had a question about haggis. Oh, nice. Because my buddy and I throw a big Burns night party every year. And we're coming up on it. And typically what we do is we just steam the haggis as sort of like a giant ball of
+
+[24:47] loose horn sausage in a big colander. Right. But for presentation purposes, this year, I bought a beef bum, and I want to do it in the beef bung so that we get the whole, you know, cutting, cutting of the
+
+[24:58] hag is open. And so I'm wondering if there's enough moisture,
+
+[25:03] like, is the bung permeable? And if I steam it, is it gonna work in the bung or should I pre-cook it, you think, and then stuff it? Huh. You know, it's interesting. I've never I've used pig stomachs before. and stuffed them, not actually strangely for haggis. Uh, but, um, because I've only done the haggis, like, um, cloth bound, actually. I think it should work. I mean, is it how big is a beef bung? Uh, I mean, you know, it's typically, I think, the type of thing they use for like a mortadella, so it can hold the, it can hold a fair amount. And the haggets we make is huge. you know, I'm talking like, you know, like something you'd strain your pasta with. That's, we typically just like pack it in there and then steam it covered in foil so that it, you know.
+
+[25:48] Yeah, I'm going to say it's going to work. You think so? Just straighten the ball. I think it's going to work. I that, or like, there's got, like, hey, Liz, is the chat room working right now? is working. Is anyone? I mean, like, there's got to be a charcuterie expert out there who has who has done this before. We're waiting. We're waiting for our expert to tap in. Yeah. Look, look, look, I'm gonna go ahead and say that that's gonna work. You know what I mean? Um, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'm gonna go ahead and say it's gonna work. Yeah, please let us know how it works. As anyone who is like, listen, long enough knows. Hagis is deserving of so much respect. It's so freaking delicious. It's just missold. That's exactly right. Yeah, we love it. everyone gets freaked out about it every year and then they have it and they say this is delicious. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's there's things like that. like people have less revulsion over Scrapple, although some people don't like Scrapple either. Scrapple, I mean different, obviously, also like incredibly delicious. And I know they're not the same or even really simple. But like, I mean, like, uh, haggis is delicious. What kind of oats do you use? We use like the quick cutting, the quick cooking steel cut, if that makes sense. Oh, I've never had that. Are they still made? are they coming that tin? No, so it's like a Bob's Redmail thing. Oh, Bob's Red Mill, yeah. Yeah, they have ones that are like supposedly quick cooking and so we just do that and it's always worked out great. Do you notice the difference between using those and like the standard like Scottish steel cut guys? I don't think we've ever used like the fully traditional ones. I think we've only ever used the quick cutting ones, but, you know, like quick cooking in this scenario means like, I think 20 minutes, if you were making it on the stovetop or something. So. Right. So it's not like a, it's not like the quick, quick cooking, like the flake stuff is like a 5 minute or less. Right, yeah, no, it's not like it's not, they're not blown out at all. There's still like this thing, uh, little cups, you know, so. Yeah. Oh man, I love haggis. what day is it Yeah. It is. So not this Saturday, but next Saturday. So if you want, if you're in Mystic, come on by. I wish. I'm going to be up there this weekend, but not the weekend after. Uh, man, I love haggis. Anyway, enjoy your haggis and let us know how it comes out. I will do it. Thanks. All right, thank you. All right, let's take a break and be back with more.
+
+[28:43] The following program was brought to you by S. Wallace Edwards and Sons. Edward Suriano hands are aged perfection for no less than 400 days, and hickory smoked to achieve a deep mahogany color. The Edwards name is well known for its world-class aged and cured meats. Their exclusive curing and aging recipe produces a unique flavor profile that enhances the quality characteristics of Berkshire Port. Optimum amounts of pure white fat marble and contribute to a flavor that's a delicate, perfect balance between sweet and salty. For more information, visit edwardsvam.com. And welcome back to cooking issues. For some reason, Nastasia and Peter are rearranging the studio as we speak. So if you hear like all kind of chairs like wheedling around. Stas, for how many years have you sat next to me and now you decided I'm no longer good to sit next to you?
+
+[29:37] sitting next to you. It's just that chair, it's like, it's all wires in the spring. Stas just wants to give me the more uncomfortable chair. That makes sense. This question, in, I was recently lucky enough to have the electric drop-in combo unit, meaning a stove, fail on me, and with the help of my awesome dad, gas lines were run, holes cut, counters altered, and I am now the owner of a sturdy and simple gas range.
+
+[30:02] Well, congratulations to you. I hate resistance, uh, fed old, uh, like gas uh, electric ranges. You ever use one of those with a squirrely? Is that what you had in California? You want to talk to the Mike style. Not your 1st time with the rodeo. You never used one? Yes, not in California. When did you have one? Like in Airbnbs. Oh, Jesus. What about you, Peter? I grew up with that. For real? Champagne Urbana was the land of... Electric. Yeah, yeah. The worst is when like stuff gets burned onto it, you know? can't really get it off. When I was a kid, we had one when I lived in New Jersey and I leaned on it with my winter coat and like melted my winter coat into it.
+
+[30:39] And then after like when you're cooking something, you can't have it stop cooking. You know what I mean? You turn it off and it's like, I'm gonna keep cooking this for a few more minutes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, there it goes. It's especially bad for stuff like cooking sugar. Like, oh, my God, like making like candies. Because you're like, hey, it's
+
+[30:57] pro, no, oh, oh. You know what I mean? I guess it's arguably better for keeping a low simmer though. Who would no? Well, maybe. I mean, because it can't, it can't flame out at super low temperatures, you mean? I don't know. I hate the hell out of it. And you know what else I used to hate? I used to hate the way pots and pans. And this is going back to when I was like 11. We moved when I was like 12. But even now, I remember, and I've used them since the way pots feel on them. It's just, I don't like it. Like pots don't slide right on them. They have that rapid tapi and like they're like, I just don't like it. they're horrible. All around bad. Just bad. I'm the owner of a sturdy and simple gas range. Okay, after decades using the same thinned bottom saucepots and thinned bottom stock pot. I'm getting more scorching than I'm used to. So there's an interesting thing. It is more even over the, uh, space of it because the burner itself is physically larger, right? Right. Right. Okay. So there's a theoretical advantage. Maybe that's why James Beard liked them. Maybe James Beard had thin, thin, crappy pots. And so he was getting scorching. And maybe if James Beard had replaced his pots with like a more modern pot or a thicker pot, maybe he would have not liked electric stoves. Because it's incomprehensible to me why he liked electric stoves. Yeah, that's the only advantage I could think of. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right? Okay. I've tried backing off the heat and I will certainly keep practicing, but I was wondering if there was any advice you would share on
+
+[32:27] sauce pots, stock pots, et cetera. Imagine finding yourself with a new gas range and wondering what would be the best use for it. I love it technical. Of course, my cast iron is more fun with gas donor. Thanks, Nathan. Okay. Uh, so, here's here's the thing. Super thin bottom pots with a concentrated gas flame are going to have problems.
+
+[32:52] They're fine. Don't let anyone tell you any differently. They're fine for boiling stuff, right? So you're always going to need to have a pot that you can boil water for pasta in
+
+[33:05] or, you know, anything, anything of that nature. But you're gonna, you're gonna want to go invest in a thick bottomed, uh, your saucepan should have a
+
+[33:18] thick bottom and anything if you're gonna brown or like make a roux or um, sweat out vegetables. You're going to want something thicker that spreads the heat out more evenly.
+
+[33:32] That's just my feeling is that you're not going to be happy with the thin bottom stuff on your range.
+
+[33:42] And what do you guys think? Peter, what do you? I'm thinking that you should play that song from Spinal Tap right now? The Big Bottom... What is it, Fat Bottom? that's queen. Oh, it's Queen. Oh. Oh, big bottoms. That's what I was looking up. Is it on Spinal? This is Spinal Tap. They have that song. anyway, whatever. So you consider your pots to be female. Is that what you're telling me? It's just interesting facts about Peter. Like, for me, like, pots and pans are one of the few gender neutral kind of, like, pieces of equipment that I can think
+
+[34:17] of. What gender do you think your pots and pans have sauce? Yeah, pots are probably female pants, male. Really? Really? Why? Long handles on the pans. This is an odd conversation. So I would I would go ahead and say you're going to want to get, you don't need a lot. Keep your thin stuff for for, like I say, for boiling. Also, I'm going to say you can get pretty cheaply. It depends on your feeling about them, right? They're relatively thick and they work relatively well. Uh, just aluminum pots and they're pretty cheap. They work really well. As long as you don't mind cooking in aluminum. I know some people don't like cooking in aluminum. And the truth of the matter is that those pots do get pitted after a long time, especially if you use them in a dishwasher because they get kind of
+
+[35:09] the dishwashing surge and kind of eats them out. But I have a couple of those because they're cheap. I have a couple because I've been collecting them a long time, really good. Um, stockpots, some thin ones that I use for, for, for other things, but if you have a thin bottom, like, like 2 quart,
+
+[35:26] like, saucepan, like, I would take that into the, into the garage or something and use it to melt wax for, like, you know, kids candle projects or something like
+
+[35:34] that because that's what that's going to be good for. I wouldn't, it's just you're going to like it so much more once you get a real thing. And you don't have to do it all at
+
+[35:42] once. You can get them piece by piece or find them in thrift shops
+
+[35:45] or, you know, when people move away. I, like, I, I no longer, look, I got married a long time ago when I got married, we got our set of all
+
+[35:55] clad. I can't imagine going out and like forking over the money to buy a full set of pants. You guys? No, right? Anyway. I mean, I guess you can you could also hack things by putting something underneath the thin bottom pan, right? Well, that's the thing, but a flame tamer, then you're back into the same situation you were back with an oven. You don't have your you don't have your reaction rate. So, like, a way to make the thin bottom pan act more like you used to, like it used to act, is to just put a slug of metal underneath your
+
+[36:23] burner, and then it'll ride up and down, up and down. It'll act almost exactly like your your electric range did, but then you don't have the what you want, which is
+
+[36:34] the off on that an electric range has. It makes it so so awesome. Right? No? Okay. Uh, got a question in, uh, from uh, Joan, if it is all possible. Can you ask Dave the following question? Do you ever use a freezing step for your French fry recipe? Does it still yield the same results? And do you alter your processing when freezing? Yes, I like freezing French fries, freezing French fries? can help. What freezing does is it's an additional dehydration stage. So if your French fries were suffering from hollow core, meaning that you didn't have the internal texture of the
+
+[37:10] French fry, be potato anymore, but just hollow and crust, then freezing will accentuate hollow core.
+
+[37:16] If you were not getting hollow core when you were uh, doing it, um, then freezing in general will make the texture of
+
+[37:25] the the outside of the fry uh, better, right? And it'll also allow you to fry it harder before the potato kind of overcooks because you should
+
+[37:34] fry, uh, you should fry directly from frozen. So frying from frozen and freezing in general
+
+[37:40] is, it can be extremely advantageous so long as you don't get hollow core.
+
+[37:46] Now, if you find that you're getting hollow core. Also, you can keep fries indefinitely once they're frozen, which is nice. Just make sure that you let them freeze almost like IQF, like individual, like on a pan, then combine them into
+
+[37:59] portions in bags and put them in your freezer. If you find, after you're done, that you're getting too much hollow core on your
+
+[38:06] French fry after the free step, then what I would do is if you have a dry step. So you're going to do, if you do enzyme, you'll do enzyme, if you don't, you don't, if you're doing the modernest thing, you're going to hit it with a
+
+[38:17] ultrasonic, you know, what's it called? cleaner, right? Or not, then you're going to do your initial blanch out step where you're cooking the potato and putting salt into the potato by boiling or boiling and steaming.
+
+[38:30] On the cooking issues blog, isn't it? I'm just going through it. just saying. No, you're not. You just trying to be mean. Anyway, then you're going to go through optionally a drying step,
+
+[38:41] right? And this is where this is where you really get to play with it, right? So it's the length of the boil step, and then the length of the dry step is where you're doing a lot of the moisture control, and it's all about the moisture control where you're trying to balance, the internal texture of the
+
+[38:55] fry with the external temperature of texture of the fry. Then your 1st fry, now you're going to do your free step or not. And I think freezing is almost always beneficial. So, like, if you get hollow core, just decrease your, just decrease your dry time if you're using it. Conversely, if the texture of the outside of the fry is not what you want it to be, and you're not getting hollow core yet, then increase your dry time in between your, um, into your
+
+[39:26] blanch and your fry. I hope that helps without you having to go and sift through the 4000 words of the cooking issues. By the way, I'm not saying we're going to do this, but I was talking to Jackie
+
+[39:35] Molecules last week, who's, by the way, in New Orleans for his birthday, hopefully he's, you know, not passed out drunk on the street somewhere. I don't think he is because it's kind of early in the day, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, Considering putting the blog on, uh, like having it admin by the good folks here at Heritage
+
+[39:56] Radio and perhaps making it semi-live again, what do you think says? Yes. You like that? semi-live. semi-live. But like, you know, we'll see. We'll see. I don't know. See what the people in the chat room, whether they want it to ever go live again. New things, new information, new cooking issues. Anyway, I hope that helps. Uh, do we, do we get anything
+
+[40:22] for, uh, from, uh, Sam or no, Liz? No, I think they knew that we were trying to get a hold of them and it's a totally automated service, so I left a very desperate message, but we have not heard from him. But on the bright side, we do have a caller. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, Nastasia and Peter. I'm Justin from Baltimore. How you doing? I was wondering, how did cryo fry a scallop? Ooh, so wait, so when you say cryofry, you mean freeze, freeze it and then fry it so you don't go over the, so you don't overcook it? Exactly. So you can get the nice crisp on the outside, but have it still nice and like ground middle or not very cooked. Right. So I think the modernist cuisine guys, when they're doing that, uh,
+
+[41:08] for, um, things like burgers and I think for burgers and that kind of stuff, they might use LN, but for duck, I think that they use dry ice.
+
+[41:19] Is that true? I can't remember. I can't remember. But, I mean, obviously, one way to try it is to just throw the sucker, like, the problem is,
+
+[41:29] like, LN, right, is going to freeze the whole thing all the way around, and then if you freeze it that way, you're not going to be, it's not going to be
+
+[41:38] flat when you try to put it on a panda to, uh, to rent, unless you're going to deep fry it. You're not
+
+[41:43] going to deep fry it, are you? No no. Yeah, you're just going to try to get a crust on the surface, right? So then the question is, how do you get it? Like, you almost want to take a nonstick surface, like a, like a, a Teflon pan, right? And then like rest the Teflon pan in LN, right? And then and then put the scallop on the pan until
+
+[42:06] the that surface of it kind of freezes. And then it should freeze and release from the pan. I'm assuming the I've put Teflon on liquid nitrogen many, many times, and I've never had a problem. I don't know if you're going to get problems with it. And of course, the scallop itself should release even from regular steel after
+
+[42:25] a while. So you could try it with regular steel. I don't know if you're going to get delamination problems over time or if you happen to be one of those people that's negative against Teflon. Um, But anyway, that's how that's how I would do it. You could possibly get it done even with dry ice if you don't have access to
+
+[42:45] liquid nitrogen, but you're going to want to freeze it against a flat surface. Ideally, 2 flat surfaces at once. So you do it. But I will say this also, is that I've known many people who, even if they don't have
+
+[42:57] like, uh, like, uh, access to, you know, fancy stuff, they will do things like, uh, sear cuts of meat. So like let's say you buy frozen meats, like a lot of the heritage stuff comes frozen, right? Because that's the way they can keep it all year. So you, a lot of people steer it directly from frozen so that you
+
+[43:16] could sear the outside without overdoing the inside. And, um, Obviously, the modernist guys and, uh, I think chef steps and Chris and all those guys, uh, are advocates of this technique. But I encourage you to do a side by side taste test because the stuff tastes different, right? So it's not just that there's less trip loss and all this, not a scallop, it's a different kind of a situation because you're trying to maintain it raw on the inside and get a sear on the outside. I'm not saying you could use a series off for that tube. But anyway, but my point being that's what you're trying to do. So like, you know, um, so I think it's a useful thing to to do there, but I would just encourage you to do a side by side taste test because on things like
+
+[43:55] burgers. I actually prefer it standards seared to cryos here in the test that I've run. Now, it's only been limited tests. I've only done it like maybe like 5 to 10 times as a test. But, like, I understand the advantages that they say you get from it. I just happen to prefer the taste of it when it's done standard searing. So you should do some side by side taste tests. Great. Thank you. All right, no problem. What do you say? We should end in a minute. All right, okay. Uh, quickly, uh, 80 writes in. Dave know if anyone is playing to release a homogenizer, like Booker and Dax or anyone else in the food world. And by that, I mean, I assume you mean rotor state or homogenizer. No immediate plans. The problem is is that the market, I don't think, is so big on it. Philip Preston is selling the IKA makes a handheld homogenizer, like small one. I think they're selling it. I'm not opposed to us doing it. It's just we got like a bunch of other projects on our plate before that, right? St us? You've got to get that stuff done before we get that done. Now listen. We don't have a lot of time left. I'm going to see if next week we can get Sam Edwards to call in to answer the question on
+
+[45:01] hand because we have a question about hanging hams for equalization and pest control.
+
+[45:06] And I know, and that question is in from Patrick. And I know that Sam has a lot of good information on pest control in
+
+[45:14] hams, and we're talking about mites, mites, Beatles and rodents. I know Stas doesn't want to get into that now because we don't have a lot of time and Stas doesn't like talking about mites, Beatles and rodents. But we'll try to get Sam Edwards maybe for next week. If not, I'll just answer the question myself. Cooking issues.
+
+[45:44] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by the Brooklyn Kitchen, a mom and pop operation since 2006. They provide the tools that shape our food culture. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the Brooklynkitchen.com. I'm Linda Pelagio, host of A Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agents. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from an empties Roberta Pizzeria. What the heck happened here, Stas? Jack. It was their holiday party. So I came in here this morning and I saw these guys have been cleaning everything up. Nothing but Papa John's and Domino's boxes. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's right. Papa John's and dominoes. I hate that kind of irony. So so you think it's like irony? You think they're just drinking PBRs? They make great pizza. I also said bottles of champagne, does, so... What, you hear, Stas? No. No? God, no, man. coming here. You know I love I love Roberta's, but I don't I don't do their holiday parties. It's just... Are you guys invited? Yeah. Just a danger zone. Yeah, I bet. Now I have slip into the danger zone in my head. It smells like a nasty bar though. everywhere out there. What do you mean? smells like old keg beer? Yeah. Yeah. Like we walk through. It's like they drank everywhere. Stas Hesser, I hated college face on. Yes, aside from biscuits and any other thing, Stas, is the, like, only person I know who didn't enjoy college. Yeah. Uh, no offense to, uh, you know, Leland Stanford's Junior University. junior, right? Or or Fence. Let him take it. Yeah. So anyway, join as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, and Jack, Jackie molecules over there, fresh back from New Orleans. How was New Orleans? Oh, so good. Did you have anything good to eat? I did. I had a lot of good things to eat. Fried alligator for the 1st time at Cochon? Oh, yeah. Kushan sure does it well. doesn't just taste like fry because she's a good restaurant. like that place. Yeah, a lot of Boudin. everywhere. You know, and then some like classic New Orleans places. I did the turtle soup at a place called Upper Line, you know, says they do it
+
+[2:24] like it would have been done 100 years ago. Yeah, and did you feel that way? It was Clovy. You know, it was really clothing. Didn't have the sherry at the end? Yeah, in the sherry, yeah, it did. It's all about the sherry at the end, Jack. No share at the end, no love. No, was good. Yeah. You ever read the old documents on turtle soup and the different kinds of fat and the
+
+[2:41] calap, what is it, calapash and calapes? Someone out there will be a turtle soup expert. I think most people now just like, you know, I mean,
+
+[2:51] are they kill they kill turtles in the back or do they buy the canned turtle meat or what? I'm guessing it's canned turtle meat. Yeah? I'm guessing. don't know. Well, if you look up, what's the name of that book? What's it called? It's out of my head. Herder's is the place in Minnesota, and the guy, it's called, I think, the bull. Oh, yeah, the bull. It's not Bull Moose. It's like, but the Bulls, something, cookbook. He has a bunch of them, and he's just this crazy, like,
+
+[3:17] like a lot of weird sexism in it, a lot of weird stuff, a lot of like historical fallacies, but one of my favorite parts is where he tells you how to chop the head off of a turtle, Jack,
+
+[3:26] there are 2 different ways. Would you like to know the 2 different ways to chop the head off of a turtle? Yes, please. Well, the 1st way, because remember, like a lot of times he's dealing with like a snapping turtle, right? So, uh, you stick a stick out and they bite on the stick and as soon as they bite on the stick, que bang, right? Chop the head off. That makes sense, right? So what do you think the 2nd way is? Oh man, I don't know. Guess? I can't. guess. I'm not pull it out? Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to say. No? No, no. Stick its finger in the tailhole. up near the butt area and then the head pops out because it's like, oh, hey, oh, oh. And then bang, you chop the head off. Wow. Tough way to go. Yeah, it's a real tough way to go. Someone get someone gooses you. Your head pops out of your shell and gets chopped off. You don't even have time to think about it, you know? No, it's not right. It's not right. You know, it's like, the thing is, is like the stick thing, right? It's kind of like why fishing is so, so, well, old school fishing on a line is so interesting because you only get to kill the thing if it tries to kill something else.
+
+[4:30] You know what I mean? Like only through the fish's own aggression does it become caught and eaten. right? Which is why it seems kind of fitting, you know? And same with the turtle going after the stick. Turtle's like, hey, crap on you, stick. And then you have a cleaver and you're like, no, crap on you, Mr. Turtle. You know what I mean? Like that's how, that just seems, you know, poking your finger up its butt. I guess it totally ends up dead either way. Uh, but, uh, so sad news that happened, uh, was it last week? It was one week ago, one week? Yes. About a week ago, we were, um, no one hurt as far as I know, which is good, but, uh, Sam Sam Edwards, as well as Edwards, uh, and son, we were trying to get them on the phone, actually, to answer someone's ham
+
+[5:13] curing uh, question and didn't know at the time that they were like at that moment having a large fire. Have you heard anything about that, Jack? Yeah, I mean, it's very sad. There, you know, they're not going to be up and running for quite some time. Really? Like, did they lose all their stock? basically, yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. So anyway, so, um, really good people too. Good people, best wishes out to Sam Edwards, S. Wells, Edwards, fantastic, you know, ham curing, you know, family. They've been doing it for generations and generations in Surrey, Virginia. Um, they actually were one of the 1st people uh, in the US. It started buying a lot of kind of what I like to call better pork, like especially even like the heritage pork and burks and stuff that heritage meat sells. And when you lose your stock like that, it puts you out like a
+
+[6:11] year, you know what I mean? Like they have stuff that's over a year old. So it's not like, uh, you know, you can just crank up and produce all the stuff that you had. You know what I mean? Not only that, but was it, like, I'm not sure which parts got burnt, but aging rooms take years. You know, these big aging rooms take years to kind of get exactly where you want them. And I remember once San Edwards told me that, you know, you could take him blindfolded into anyone at the time, I think he had 3 different big curing rooms, and he said that they all had their own kind of, uh, uh, feeling to him in terms of the, uh,
+
+[6:46] microflora and fauna that live there that give the hams their, um, particular characteristics. And he said that blindfolded. He could tell you which one he was in every time, just because they had all developed their own character. And so... Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, those rooms are no longer now. Yeah, it's like, and if you talk to, you remember, you know, the Salamaria Bulacy guys here in New York, but now and also New Jersey. Like I talked to them years ago too. And like, you know, uh, one of the, you know, things that you build up over, uh, you know, a long period of time is a stable, uh, curing
+
+[7:20] and, um, an aging room because like I say, like each one is unique and needs to be kind of built up over
+
+[7:27] time. And so it's just a really sad to even after like a year. It's not going to be, you know, the same. I'm sure they'll get back on their feet and, you know, because they've been doing it, like I say, for a long, long, long time. And, you know, they're really good at it. But our best wishes go out to them. And, um, you know, I don't know if we, is there radio, uh, we doing anything or, or is there any sort
+
+[7:50] of, uh... Yeah, we're gonna continue to kind of talk about it. It's very fresh, so we're just giving them a little bit of time, but, you know, we work closely with them. It's one of Heritage's main accounts. I mean, like, uh, they were buying their hogs from from heritage. Um, so definitely affected all of us. And we'll definitely be reporting on it more. I'm sure we'll follow up with Sam soon. Um, yeah. anyway, so I guess I'll take a crack at the at the ham question. Do you want to take a caller first? Yeah, sure. Call her. on the air. Hey, it's Harry from Chicago. Hey, how you doing? Cell phone reception. Yeah, I was like, you're cutting in and out a bit, homosex. See if you can move a couple of feet and then start start again. Is better? Yep. Uh, doing pastry, but I'm calling for Bart, who is trying to make
+
+[8:43] a non-alcoholic Negroni? Hmm. He was saying between juniper and coriander and pine.
+
+[8:54] He was pretty happy with like a gin component. But was wondering if you had any advice on recreating kind of like a
+
+[9:01] mock, sweet vermouth or campari. Yeah, well, I've done, uh, in fact, Jack, I don't know if we can search it, but
+
+[9:10] we we actually gave a recipe for, uh, a Campari soda out. It was a couple of years ago. Um, but yeah, we did like, uh, a Campari variant. So you can do, um, like a water-based, um, you know, just got to go to, you know, whatever, I don't know in Chicago where you get
+
+[9:30] the stuff, but like, you know, here we have a couple of stores where that sell all of the various, uh, kind of barks and
+
+[9:36] routes and stuff. So, you know, Kalustians here is one and dual specialty shop is another, a couple others, but I'm sure you have some sort of local joint you can go. Um, I forget everything that is, is, uh, in the Campari, because it's been a while. I think it's like Gentian, right? Try episode 165. It's coming up that you talked about Campari there. Right. To the listener. Go back and listen. Bar soda, yeah. So I get I give a recipe there. The vermouth, I've never tried to, uh, I've never tried to tackle a vermouth, right? So if you're going to do a vermouth, there's a couple of things, especially if you're going to do a vermouth for
+
+[10:14] Negroni, there's going to be a couple of things that you're going to need to hit. One, remember, vermouth is wine-based. Okay? So in order to get it right, you're going to need some acid in it. Um, preferably similar acid balance that you'd get um, in uh, a wine. So, uh, you know, some, some, um, tartaric, depending perhaps some
+
+[10:38] lactic, and perhaps some malic, depending on the, on the ratio that you're going to get out there. Um, you could conceivably use uh, grape juice because you're going to have to add sugar anyway because the vermouth is also sweet. In addition to that, you're going to have to figure out whatever herb base you're going to want to kind of mimic the vermouth. So you're going to need those 3 components. You're going to need the Herby component. You're going to need the an acid component, and you're going to need some sugar because it's not, you know, in a Negroni, it's not, you know, typically a dry, um, a driver move. It's also typically a, you know, a darker, uh, a darker removed. And so you might want to get some kind of brown or materized characteristics in there as well. Um, now, something you might want to consider when you're doing it, because you're doing an actual Negroni, like it's a stirred cocktail, right? In a non-alcoholic form, unless you add some superbodying agents to
+
+[11:40] it. I just don't think you're going to get the kind of viscosity out of it, that's going to make it drink, even forget the fact that there's no alcohol in it, but that it's going to make it drink like it's
+
+[11:49] a Negroni. Um, it's going to have more of like a,
+
+[11:54] uh, it's going to have more of like a, like a juicy kind of, um, body to it than a Negroni
+
+[12:01] one. What I would suggest is going like a little bit lighter on all the flavors and doing it in the style of a carbonated
+
+[12:08] Negroni because the flavors of a Negroni carbonate very well. And once you carbonate something like that, especially something with bitters in it, people, 1st of all, are used to, um, like, uh, you know, the sand bitter sodas, which are very similar to a compari or
+
+[12:22] comparian soda, and the addition of the gin components, and uh, the removed
+
+[12:26] components, they carbonate quite well. And I think you might have better luck with making something that has the feel of a
+
+[12:34] carbonate Negroni than the feel of a stirred Negroni, but that's just my feeling. What do you think, Stas? You any feelings on that? That's good. Jack? Cool. All right. All right, well, good luck with it. Let us know what happens. Shoot us a tweet at cooking issues and let us know what happens. So go on the on the board that they have here at Heritage Radio. All right, we'll do have a good day. Now you too. Remember those commercials like, can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Yeah, I can't believe that we still deal with the shitty cell phone reception like that. Well, you know, it's like, you know, we can't get anything right. Sorry. You know what I mean? Like, we can't get, we can't get, like, you know, the simplest things can't get right. I'll give you an example. Today, I'm trying to, you know, get here and the streets of New York, we did an admirable job, like getting the city kind of cleaned up from the snowmageddon that we had here. It was like, what, 26 inches or some nonsense like this. But I saw this idiot. Not even a private idiot, like a city paid idiot, like paid by the 3 of us. Like we're paying this idiot, right? And I don't know whether this has any meaning to you, but he's plowing the street, right? And he's got the plow adjusted wrong. First of all, he's plowing in a rear-wheel drive pickup truck that doesn't have limited slip differential. Okay, without weighing his bed down at all. So he's got this like hyperlight bed that he's trying to drive a snowplow with and and his back wheels, he doesn't have a limited slip differential on it. Then he adjusts his freaking plow so that it's too high up and he lets too much snow
+
+[14:05] underneath so that he's running over like, you know, like 3 quarters of an inch of slushed out snow. And his rear tires are just spinning and burning rubber and he's going down the highway down the street with his tires
+
+[14:19] going, like, and the truck is only going like, you know, half a mile an hour or 2 miles an hour because it's the equivalent of just like, you know, crawling along because he's burning his back wheels up because he's a freaking moron.
+
+[14:33] Did you help him? I was late to come to the show. But what am I going to do? knock on his window. Hey, hey, jerk. learn how cars work. You know what I mean? Like, is that what I'm supposed to do? First of all, if you own a pickup truck. I don't know, is this being like stereotyping people, but if you own a pickup truck, you're supposed to know roughly how vehicles work, no? I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know. And then, and then, just to show, like, how crazy New York can get sometimes, a guy was, was, you know, that you, you know the term
+
+[15:07] busker does, busker. Oh, man. But I'm sure, I'm sure Jack, as a musician, you hate yourself some buskers. Oh my goodness. I hate buskers like Stas hates biscuits. Oh, yeah. Boom I hate buskers like Styles hates biscuits. Anyways, so 1st of all, 1st of all, 1st of all, extremely one of these dudes with the extremely loud,
+
+[15:30] like tremulous, like, you know, trying to do the crooning loud voice thing. and you ready for it? Rick Astley, never going to give you up. I swear. I swear to God. I got Rick rolled in the freaking subway and the dude. He was he was only off key every once in a while. So actually I was like, you know what? If you're going to be a jerk, whatever. But like, it's the guy was louder than a set of freaking bagpipes. I could hear him, 2 platforms away on a different freaking level.
+
+[16:01] And like, like, we're sitting there, everyone's standing on the platform looking at each other being like, freaking Rick Astley? What? You know what I mean? It's like, like I didn't have to just step through like a bunch of Meyer and Slush to get here. Now I got to get Rick rolled. Man. Anyways. There's no offense to Rick Astley, you know. The guy, I didn't want to look over to see if he was wearing that long tweed coat that
+
+[16:26] Astley, isn't it tweed, or is he wearing camel hair? Remember, he's wearing like a long coat in that video. I can imagine. Just rick roll yourself and you can find out. I don't feel like I should be the only guy that has to freak in. you know, deal with that. Anyway. Hey, quick, quick, quick, shout out to Pedro, who was introduced to sous vide in the cooking issue show, and he did veal cheeks, 8 hours, 82 degrees,
+
+[16:48] and man, it was so good. He got a small tear in his eye. So he's very proud. I like that. I like a small tear in the eye. You know, the, I'm not going to answer any free questions, am I? Like, like, certain things when you get them. Mostly for me, it's things that bring up like childhood memories, they can bring like a tier to my, like in a restaurant or something, where Stas is the exact opposite. Anything that reminds her of her childhood. She's like, I hate this. What about lemongrass? Yeah, I don't like it. didn't eat it growing up. You just smelled it in the garden and then you had a universal hatred for it? Did you get bit by something in the garden? What? I used to chew on it like, I don't know, just don't like it. crazy. Anyways. So like, I remember a baby lamb I had like that at a very fine restaurant. I was like, or when I went to Danielle and they did the Gary Dong,
+
+[17:35] they, you know, the table side service, but they did it so old school, but I was like, oh, so old school. you, occasionally you want the hyper old school. Yeah. Something else I'm going to mention real quick before I actually answer this question. Um, So, you know, I told you I bought this wet grinder, right? You know, but stars, you remember the wet grinder, that we made the, used to make the chocolate and the, uh, and the, and all the nut butters in and stuff like this. Anyway, the one that I had broke. So, and I'd never, ever used it to make real, uh, real, you know, food with it that
+
+[18:06] it's intended to do, namely things like doses and idlies and other. And so, you know, for those of you that don't know, like the dosa is like the, the, the, so yeah, you take uh, Ura doll, which is like this like split, you know, um, you know, black gram, that what, but it's, you know,
+
+[18:20] de hauled, so it's white, and you soak it, and you grind it, and that becomes like a mucilaginous paste, and you mix that in
+
+[18:26] with um, idly rice, which is parboiled. So the starch is already somewhat, um, uh, pregelatinized, right? So it's almost like using a pre-cooked starch. Well, it is like using a pre-cooked starch. And then, but it's dry, so you soak that and you grind it, you mix those 2 together. I did about 3 parts rice to one part of the doll. Uh, and you let it ferment for a long time and it actually makes, you can make these, you can make these crepes, which are, and you put
+
+[18:49] fenna Greek seed in too. You can make these crepes, which are like doses and they're crispy, or you can make these things that look like little frisbee pies. What are those things called stuff? It's a little like they're, they look like they're puffy. They're puffy, but they're like disks. You know what I'm talking about? Anyways. Uh, like an like an incrustible. Remember those wretched things made by smuckers or whatever? Oh my goodness. Yeah, they're kind of like that. But anyway, but they're steamed. and they're delicious. Those are idlys, right? So I've been practicing with this, but I've started, I just, I've decided I freaking love this wet grinder because it's just such a pleasure to use it. It's so quiet compared to like the Vida Prep. You know what I mean? It's just like, grinding the stuff. Anyway, so, uh, Dax and Booker did not like uh, playing uh, Italy's. They didn't like them, right? So I took, uh, we did the potato bar again over the weekend, as I suggested someone else, they do. So I took some of the veg chili because for some reason Dax wants veget chili on his potatoes. And so I put the veg chili inside the Italy and steamed it so that the inside of the Italy was filled with chili. So right there you have chili idleys, chili idleys. Then Stas, here what we're going to do. I put this on the Twitter, but since you don't read Twitter, I can, I can tell you this. are you doing this? We got we got to rent something. We shouldn't actually just, we really should. We should rent at San Gennaro's. We should rent one of the booze and make little Italy, Italy's. And if you could say it 5 times fast, I won't make you do it. Little Italy, chili, Italy. Have you ever done anything like that? What? Like a street pop-up? Have you? Yes. Well, no, that's in your truck. That's a truck. No, we did both. You did a street? I have actually served things at street things, but not for a long period of time. Well, then you have to be able to say effect. Can you save it once? Can you say it even once? No, I can't. Jack, can you say that tongue twister? I had a look at it. Little Italy, Chili, Italy. Little, Italy, Chili, Italy. Ah, yeah, you're a better, you're a, you're a better man than Stas is a woman. Okay. She's just weak. She was sitting there like futzing around on her on her phone, not even trying to say it. screwed for the car on Thursday. What car on Thursday? She's talking about her travel plans for Thursday with radio people who don't care. But we, Stas, you have the entire rest of the day to discuss your Thursday travel plans with me the entire rest of the
+
+[21:09] day. In fact, look, we're not even going to have lunch here because there is no lunch here today. We're going to be discussing that at any point in time. We're going to be hanging out at Booker and Dax. We have a bar meeting people. I don't know if you're interested in that. After this, we're going to go to a fantastic bar meeting where we have plenty of time to discuss. They always ask for more personal. But like, but they don't care that you can't find a car on Thursday because they're not like hanging out with you on
+
+[21:29] Thursday. They might still have some Papa John's for lunch here, by the way. Thank you. A true mom and pop operation since 2006. The Brooklyn kitchen provides the tools that shape our food culture. They stock a curated variety of pots, pans, knives, small appliances, and other kitchen essentials. Their grocery department works closely with local farms and food artisans to bring you the tastiest fresh produce, dairy, and pantry items. Their teaching kitchens allowed them to offer a wide breath of cooking classes, from knife skills to pick butchering, from cooking for couples to pickling and canning, from
+
+[22:01] home brewing to pie making. Something new is always happening at the Brooklyn Kitchen. Visit them at 100 Frost Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, or visit the
+
+[22:10] Brooklyn kitchen.com. I have a question that I think we missed in the fold here through email. You mind if I jump in with it? Okay, cool. This is from Javier Gutierrez. I can't say it. I'm another one of the crazy guys working my way through the archives. I can only thank you for sharing so much knowledge in the many hours of entertainment. My question is related to making pizza at home. I want to create a Napoli style pizza. Okay. But haven't been able to make a dough that when baked is thin and light. I've used many recipes from Reinhardt, Hestin, and others, but none have worked for me so far. Do I need to lower the yeast content or increase the hydration or am I failing to make the pies thin enough to achieve the desired result?
+
+[22:49] As far as the sauce for the pizza? What are important things to consider? I know in previous shows, you've mentioned adding anchovies. But what are other good ingredients to make a killer sauce, would appreciate any tips, techniques, or a recipe that works for you. And for background, he makes them using a technique from Heston Blumenthal's show in search of
+
+[23:05] perfection where you crank the oven as high as it goes, heat a large cast iron pan on a stove, move it to the oven to use as a base to create a good and fast crust. All right. Get all that? Yes. So, you know, okay, a couple of points here. I think, uh, you know, what Jeffrey Steingarten always used to say, uh, is that the only important thing in a pizza really is the dough.
+
+[23:29] Like, and everything else is just, you know, window dressing for the dough.
+
+[23:35] And if you don't focus on the dough, then your host, right? And most of the people I know that make really good dough, and this is the way I do it too. Um, the trick to it is extremely long fermentation times, right?
+
+[23:54] So, you know, a very small amount of yeast, fairly high, you know, not super
+
+[23:58] high, but fairly high hydration and just very, very long rise times. So you can do that a number of ways, right? So you can start with a, you can start with a, like a more normal, like the easiest way to do it.
+
+[24:11] Uh, and then, uh, you know, Matthew, uh, uh,
+
+[24:15] from um, Motorino, he, like, he, he actually called me out because what I had done for many years was you'd make a dough that was relatively high in hydration. I forget what I owe not super high. Like, I was doing like, I think, somewhere in the mid 60s, up to, I think, mid 60s to 70s, somewhere in there. And then, um, you, you know, I would under yeast it, I would let it start rising, and then I would throw it in the fridge to retard it for like 24
+
+[24:44] hours or like, you know, 18 hours. I'd pull it out like 4 hours before I wanted to make pizza. I would make all the dough individually. So like the night before, I would, I would break all the doughs individually into uh, core containers, I would spray, Pam, into the core containers, throw in the dough, cap them, and then throw them all in the
+
+[25:02] fridge, stacked, so that I could pull them all out, and then doe for dough, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, just go,
+
+[25:07] right? That's how I would do it. But then, you know, Matthew was like, you know, that's great, I guess, if you're going to be a jackass. He's like, why don't you like, why, like, just use less yeast? And then you won't have to do the fridge retarding step. You can just let it go. So, you know, I've tried scaling further and further back. on the yeast and just letting the rise time be longer and longer. Also, I wouldn't hold back on the salt. Salt is going to decrease the yeast activity, but it will leaven over time. And I think most of the people who are doing, I don't know how they do it here, actually, but I think most of the people that, um, you know, I've spoken to, uh, you know, who really like
+
+[25:51] the the job they're doing, it's just a matter of either using a, uh, a retarding step in the fridge or uh, just having a really
+
+[25:58] long, uh, gradual rise time. Uh, and I think most people use a fairly like on the wetter side of uh, uh, a dough. I know that Steingarten, when he was doing his stuff in the
+
+[26:11] oven, in his home oven testing, was using a very high hydration dough, like one that he could barely handle.
+
+[26:18] I don't do that, but, um, that maybe that's, you know, something you need to do if you're dealing with a more normal oven. I don't have a normal oven. Like, I've jacked my oven so that I can get up to 850 degrees. Uh, so, you know, I can treat it like it's a real, you know, pizza oven. Um, The pan might work. He said, Jackie said he had the pan upside down, right? I believe so. Have to. Otherwise, what are you gonna do? I mean what's the choice? You could get one of Chris Young's approved baking
+
+[26:47] steals. I mean, a chef steps, they have that, I tend to still use stone because my oven can heat up a lot of
+
+[26:54] stone really freaking hot. But anyway, yeah, I use that. As for the sauces, I think usually minimal is better. I like thick sauces rather than thin sauces, but a lot of people hate. What kind of sauce do you like sauce? You like thin? I like a thick, like not thickly. In other words, when I say thick, I mean the sauce itself has more of a pasty consistency, but you know, it's thinly applied, but Stas prefers a thinner sauce, but then you really need a good oven because you're adding a lot more moisture to the
+
+[27:21] top and the pizza won't last as long when it comes out. you have to apply less. The trick to that kind of a thing is just application of less crap. Like the less garbage you put on pizza, usually, uh, the better in terms of the texture of the dough. At least that's my experience used does. And the other answer, by the way, 2 things that are that belong on most pizzas, fried egg, just put on the top after the thing comes out. I love a fried egg on any pizza. I like thinly shaved, uh, very thinly shaved, uh, potato, to like thinly shaved a potato, toss it in uh, oil, salt, and pepper, and then just like throw it on, and I like that a lot.
+
+[27:59] You ever had that, Stas? Sullivan's used to do that. They used to make it really good. I've had really good potato pizza in outside of Rome, like really good. But I like it, just like thin, kind of shaped. And but that what Stas and I like the most is greens on our pizza. would have been our day, though, to bring the greens, huh? I know, like jerks. So here are Burta's, right? Every day, we're like every day. Every Tuesday we're like, can we get some greens on our freaking pizza and they're like, we don't have greens. We're like, how about this kale salad that you have? Can we just, and like, and they're like, no, they don't want to do it for us. They specifically hate us. So here's what we're going to do. Next week, we're going to bring our own greens. It's BYOG. We're going to bring the greens. We'll toss them with a little like vinaigrette or something or something simple. And then we'll just put them on top. I like I like uncooked greens on the top of my pizza,
+
+[28:48] right? I like that. I like to smash it in, fold it in half and have the pizza be like a freaking, like, salad pizza. See, I like that, but more if it's like a white pie, you know? I like it always. And I'll tell you what, I like I like strong flavored greens. I like arugula that way. You can tell your girlfriend it's good on the 2 boots, Cleopatra pizza. Nice. Well, so FYI, it's, you know, Jack, you want to give him the FYI on the 2 boots? What, the cornmeal? No, not the cornmeal? The connection. Oh, FYI. I thought we talked about it on the show. My girlfriend is in the 2 Boots family. Yeah. Well, so what the hell? don't need suggestions in New Orleans. all about that. They're a New Orleans family. Yeah. Well, they're from New York, like New Yorkers, but, you know, strong tide in New Orleans. Yeah. And by the way, in the chat room, Stas, we do care. Check out Costco travel for cheap rentals. you. Oh, now Dave's just a bad guy. Dave, show us a real meaning. You are like, let's change the format and be more interesting and include more people. I don't want to change the format. I want to get some, like, so Jack. Yeah, I don't want to change the format. What I want is to get maybe some like other style of guests in occasionally. Like who? I don't know. Like, I got to get someone to agree first. I don't know, like, who do you think would be interesting? Um, maybe, I don't know. Like when we get guests, there... Hey, listeners, who do you want to hear on the show? Right. usually a very specific kind of guests, right? So we'll get, like, you know, Mirvold or Chris Young or Henry McGee or Jeffrey
+
+[30:22] Steingarten or Dave Wonder. very like, you know, they're in the nerd realm, let's say. Man friendly. Whoa, man friendly. didn't hear any females in that. That's true. Well, cup for cup. She that she came on once. She said she hated Floridians. She did. Yes which was awesome. Did Jordan come on the show once? Yes, yeah she did. She did? She did? And Jordana Rothman, if you want to, if you want personal information. Jordan Rothman, who is a good friend of ours, used to be the, uh, she wrote, uh, the most recent thing that she did that you should go by is Alex Dupak's uh, taco book, right? Yep. Yeah. And, um, uh, anyway, so she's been texting
+
+[31:04] me pictures of Nastasia Lopez with like laser beams coming out of her eyes, like exploding Mark Ladner's
+
+[31:12] head or like, yeah, Anastasia Lopez carrying already, by the way, a very scary butcher's knife, but also with like blood dripping fangs.
+
+[31:21] Very interesting. Wow. Very interesting photos. I'm getting from Jordana. We got some other requests for guests here in the chat room. What do you got? We got Christina Tosi. Okay, yeah, she... Who's that? Who's that? I said, very doable. Yeah, yeah, Donald Trump not doable. David Chang, Alex Stupak, and Dave's wife. Yeah, well, we'll get her. We'll get her. Okay. So another thing is that Jack and I are talking about bringing the blog back semi-live,
+
+[31:49] semi-live, semi-live. In other words, like heritage, we haven't talked about it fully, but the heritage radio would keep it from being like overrun by Cialis merchants,
+
+[32:00] right? Um, which is for a long time. It was like Cialis merchants, I think. And then, uh, and then we might occasionally start putting new live content on it just because I'm sick of not having that outlet, but they won't be 4000 word, like, you know, posts on niximalization
+
+[32:17] anymore unless I find myself like, like, no, unless I, unless I feel compelled to do it. But, um, Right? And then we go live, maybe we'll do the starch program on that, the starch, you know, the year of starch. I've already started. St is like, you love starch. You're the freaking pasta queen. How could you... What the hell is it boring? Everything you like is starch. Hey, can we play that? It's a starch. It's a starch. She likes a starch. make it, make it, make it. my favorite. We got to watch that movie. I love that movie. Big night. Oh, so awesome. I gotta call her on the line. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave and everyone. I'm the ham question. Oh, here we go. Patrick. Yeah. How you doing? Good, good. I started to Pester. I was just planning on hanging them this weekend, so I want to make sure I wasn't having any mission critical errors. All right. Do you want me to read your questions so people know what we're talking about? I have a question about hanging hams for equalization. So equalization, folks, is after you do your initial salting phase, the salt is not equally permeated the
+
+[33:20] ham. So you hang it for a little while and let the salt, as they say, equalize before you have the real,
+
+[33:26] um, you have the real, uh, what's it called? aging process go on. Uh, I have some hams that are currently curing a temperature controlled 35 degree chest freezer, uh, and I'm planning to remove them for equalization and hang them in unfinished basement that is constantly roughly 50 to 55 degrees.
+
+[33:41] Are there any pest countermeasures you recommend now? I was planning to put hams in stocking nets and hang them from the rafters as the ceilings are low, they will probably end up only 3 to feet off 3 feet off the ground at
+
+[33:51] most 3 to 4 feet. I'm not sure how impervious the basement is to rodents. I'm guessing it's not, although the house hasn't had any food products in it for several years. I imagine bugs are less of a concern until warmer weather, but I don't really, but don't, I don't really know. In spring, I was going to move into a warmer zone for aging and coat in a fat rice flour
+
+[34:07] mixture, per Paul Bertoli's recommendations in the fantastic book, cooking by hand, which is a great book, by the way. People don't read that anymore. Do you know that, Patrick? I don't think people read that book anymore. Good book, right? Yeah, I don't think so. Great book. Love that book. Uh, but it sounded uh, like uh, coding in the equalization stage isn't a good idea. Because you want the moisture loss to continue now. They will not be smoked. Okay, this is all excellent questions. So on the issue of rodents. So I forget which one of the burgers, I think it was Morris Burger from Burger Smokehouse once told me that, you know, when he was a kid, what they would do is they would hang the hams from very thin wires,
+
+[34:50] right? Because rodents can't chew through wire and they can't climb on the wire. And so they would hang the hams on these like super thin wires from the rafters instead of from
+
+[35:01] strings or ropes because the rodents could climb on those, but couldn't climb on just a piece of wire. He also said that when they used to cut slices out of the center of the, you know,
+
+[35:13] the, the, the frying slices for it, they would rub lard on the uh, faces as they as they cut it, mainly to stop the drying out to keep the stuff preserved on that side. And he said that they used to keep the hands like that for a good long time. Now, they might have been, um, I'm pretty sure that they occasionally would smoke those things out, um, so that to prevent kind of, you know,
+
+[35:35] pests, uh, from, um, going in there. Now, there's a couple of different kind of pests you need to worry about, right? So early on, if you have parts of it that are still, um, and I
+
+[35:47] think I wrote down, let me see if I actually did, I'm pretty stupid. I probably didn't. It's not here. shoot. Uh, if you go online, uh, the University of Kentucky and the University of Virginia have very good cooperative extension websites on uh,
+
+[36:03] Curingham at at home. The guy who did Virginia Techs won, I think it was Virginia Tech, I don't think it was, I think it was Virginia Tech. His name was Norman is Norman Marriott, and he has a lot of good information. And then Kentucky folks have a lot of stuff on pest controls. But, uh, earlier on, you're going to have problems with, um, uh, you could have problems with uh, flies, right? like skippers and stuff like this. And so for that, the stocking net's going to help. But some people recommend actually, once once it's, you know, done, equalize it. You can't do it during equalization, because it's equalizing and getting its, you know, initial kind of some of the moisture update. Some people wrap it full in paper, which is still kind of like moisture permeable, but not insect permeable. And so that's how they'll kind of do things. But once you get enough liquid out of it so that the flies themselves aren't a
+
+[36:53] problem. Like the main problems that I've had personally is with various different kinds of
+
+[36:57] Beetle and with mites, right? And so once you get mites in your space, right, they're like there. You can't, like, you're not going to, you're not going to get rid of them. You know what I mean? They used to use a, um, and the name just went out of my head and like I said, I thought I wrote it down in the thing, but the name went out of my head.
+
+[37:18] you know, as you age. these things go out of your head, but there's something that they used to fumigate the actual hams width that is meant to be like a food
+
+[37:26] grade fumigant. And, uh, but it's been, it's being outlawed not for a food safety reason, but because I think it's
+
+[37:35] like uh, detrimental to the ozone layer. So they can't do that anymore. So there's nothing, I think, that you can spray kind of directly on the, the, you know, meat, except for they always say, like, rub a layer, like, if you have an effective area, cut it out, rub a layer of oil over it, uh, and some people put, like, like, hard
+
+[37:54] alcohol and then oil over it, uh, to try and kill uh, the things um, around there. Also, like, if you get a mite infestation or before you hang up, some people, uh, before you hang the meat, some people now will take like pyrethrin, like this, like, which is like, I guess, from chrysanthemums or something, but it's like, uh, you know, non-toxic, um, pesticide, and they'll like spray soak the, uh, the wood in the area with it to wipe
+
+[38:19] out uh, mites and stuff like that. And then they'll, and I get, I think it does mites. And then they'll hang it and they go, but like I've had mites develop and you can see mites because they make this powdery nonsense. Uh, you know, where they're, where they're, like, it's actually, I think, their bodies that, you know, as they're dying, they make this powdery stuff. It's not going to hurt much. The thing that really is grosser, the Beatles, right? And there's different kinds of beetles that eat different kinds of things, but the ones that I used to get would bore into the fat area, um,
+
+[38:47] uh, you know, right where the fat meets the kind of uh, meat and skin area and you'd see the bore holes and they'd go in there and I had a real tough time eradicating
+
+[38:54] them. So I think your stocking net is good. If you... Do you think I should put the paper? I could do the paper in the soconet too? just or is that? Yeah, that's that's what that's what I've seen people who do that. I think that's the way Finchville sells their hams. They're paper and stock in that. And if you actually, if you look up, there's a whole curing technique called bag curing that Norman Marriott from Virginia, um, kind of proposes where you put a fixed amount, instead of, instead of taking your hams and kind of like laying them, uh, you know, down flatwise and then turning them over occasionally and then just having the salt kind of distribute over like a big case of hams, like
+
+[39:32] an alternative method is to add just the amount for that individual ham inside of the paper bat and cure it like individually like that, which
+
+[39:39] is. Yeah, that's sort of what we've tried so far with the cure. It's sort of a hybrid of the Bertoli percentages, but with using the bag. Right. So I'm going to see how that turns out. I'm just curious too of, of, of, of, uh, I think I have 8 of them with 2 different, uh, 2 different thick
+
+[40:00] grades, just, but I was just, when, when should I start pulling them? Because I'm thinking of just, I want to see how long they can, they can
+
+[40:07] go? You know, with, you know, they're going to dry out a little more, but maybe, you know, keep some moisture in them, because I'm just curious at the longer
+
+[40:14] end, what, how the flavor is going to develop. But if you have 4 of them, when would you recommend polling them, you know,
+
+[40:22] in sequence, just a taste, as long as they're good. Yeah, I mean, well, you can get, you know, like an ice pick, right? And you can kind of judge during the curing time based on kind of aroma, uh, on the ice pick, like kind of where you think, um, where you think the
+
+[40:40] flavor is going. And I would also highly recommend weighing them. Uh, so you can kind of gauge how much moisture you're losing
+
+[40:49] um, over time. Um, but I've never, you know, I've never made my own from, um,
+
+[40:57] from scratch, but, you know, like all of the anecdotal evidence. So if you try to mimic the, like the actual kind of, uh, you know, heat regimen you're going to get in, um, in kind of like the classic ham production areas. You know, I wouldn't cut into one earlier than 9 months. You know what I mean? And I would I would try to, you know, wait a year if you could. Uh, you know, I've taken 9 month old hams and aged them an additional year and they're
+
+[41:28] hard, but they're good. You know, I think that a lot of for you, if you want to age them for a long time, is going to be that fat coding, especially, um, especially on the face where the meat's
+
+[41:39] exposed because that's where you're going to lose a lot of moisture. And so if you, if you imagine in your head slicing a country ham, the, the meat that's close there to the, where it was attached to the pig's body, where there's no kind of a fat covering, where it's a lot harder and drier there
+
+[41:52] uh, than it is uh, in, in the rest. And so that's what you're going to want to. And also, remember, if you're using Bertoli's salt quantities, there are lower, there are lower salt content. So you could probably survive a higher degree of dehydration without having it taste consequently that much more
+
+[42:11] salty, so long as it doesn't. So long as you have enough in there that during the initial curing phase, it doesn't spoil. But that's where the ice pick's gonna help you. You're going to jab the ice pick in and you're going to see what's going on. And of course, you know, you don't need to worry about, I mean, if you do get some taint or spoil in the ham, when you bone it out, you can just cut that part out. I mean, I can't tell you. I've had, you know, so many hams that had portions of them that were not properly
+
+[42:35] cured and that part was bad, but the rest of the ham was still good. So, you know, it's never a total loss. Yeah, so, I mean, I think so, the plan is to, where they're going to equalize is sort of this constant temperature, but the plan is after
+
+[42:49] that, to, uh, hang them in a place upstate where there's about a 30 to 35 degree temperature, difference between day and nighttime, most of the
+
+[42:58] year. So, you know, when it's the summer, it goes up to 85 and I'm dropping to 50. So I'm guessing, you know, by everything I've read, which you've said too, is that that's going to be fairly beneficial to developing interesting characteristics.
+
+[43:10] Yep, yep, up and down. So like, uh... Oh, yeah. So like that's the that's the reason the Travel Uni, uh, I think it's the name of the the drying machines they have in Parma are so awesome because they they imitate that kind
+
+[43:23] of, um, that kind of cycle, that day night cycle of, um, temperature, uh, humidity. Yeah, so like that's that's what you want. I mean, that's definitely what you want. Uh, and so, uh, but you should keep, keep us, uh, keep us posted either
+
+[43:37] on, uh, on the chat room or to my Twitter at cooking issues and let us know how everything's going because I love, I love hearing
+
+[43:43] the the progress of how these things go. Well, I think I think the 1st tasting won't be till the fall, so it might be, it might be 7 or 8 months from now. Yeah, but like if you have a problem with insects or something, like let us know. It's, you know, it's interesting, and that kind of stuff's interesting to me, especially if you're not going to be there all the time. You know what I mean? It's, you don't want to. Yeah, that's just sort of, it's, it's not a hands on operation at all. It's sort of a, let the thing sit there. Come back every few weeks operation. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well let's know what happens. Cool. All right. Thanks for all your help. All right, cool. So I didn't get to any of this week's questions, but next week we're going to talk about preserving basil. We have a question from Thailand. We're going to talk about these new, this new
+
+[44:22] weird, freeze, this new instant coffee that supposedly is really good, but I haven't had it. So, like, if any actually, if anyone out there for next week can tell me something about sudden coffee and whether anyone's had it or tasted it,
+
+[44:35] it like sells out instantly, but so it's hard for me to talk about, but we could talk about it next week on the show. Anyway, also I had a question on tandors, which would take a long time for me to get to, so we'll get that next time. And also a question on drying things out with sodium sulfate, which I'm not even sure how I should respond to, but we'll talk about it next time on cooking
+
+[44:51] issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by eating tools, unique handmade eating and cooking tools for more information visit eatingtools.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. You just coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday around from 12, so 12, 12, 10, 12, 15. Ah, Roberta Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and the Heritage Radio Network. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. We are joined today not only, as usual, witness dossier the Hammer Lopez. It does. Jack, Jackie Molecules, Insley in the booth. Hey Jack. But we have... From the Museum of Food and Drinks, Sam, say hello. Hey, and straight from Madtown, from the from the underground, the variety of different underground collectives that they have in Madison, Wisconsin, the
+
+[1:09] one the only Johnny Hunter. I have a story to tell. So I have definitive proof that Kim Gordon is a huge fan of cooking issues.
+
+[1:22] Yeah. What? Yep. So last time I was on the show, someone called in and asked who our favorite band
+
+[1:28] is. And I said Sonic Youth. couple months ago, someone text me. Yo, Kim Gordon, is at the butcher shop? It's one of our businesses. I'm like, really? So, I run over there. She had just left. Someone, one of our employees, like, didn't recognize her and told her she couldn't use the bathroom. Oh, but she drove, she was driving across the country, stopped at our shop, took a picture in front of it, put it on
+
+[1:56] Instagram. So I think that like she listens. Why? just knows you guys. No, she knows the show. Why else would she come into the shop? She likes she stopped in like Indiana, Madison, Wisconsin, Fargo. Fargo. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, if I was going to be in Madison, I would definitely stop by your establishment. I mean, I don't think it has anything to do with it. No, she was listening when I said Sonic Youth, and so she stopped by. Really? Yeah. All right. Well, we can verif, this is verifiable. Like, you know, if this ever makes... Yeah, call, yeah, call. Come on anytime. Or, you know, come to the come to the Mofat event. You want to talk about the MoFA event we're doing, Johnny? Yeah, we're doing a event on Thursday, MOFad, looking at the effects of pH on cooking, which is everything pretty much. I don't think there's much that we do that doesn't have a PH effect, but I think there's some specific things that we're doing that will be kind of interesting. I think, especially the base stuff, not a lot of people think about that. Well, I mean, especially everything you do is kind of pH related, not everything, but you do a lot of work with fermentation and preservation, so much of that is. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's doing the, like, salamis and the fermented vegetables and the misos and stuff like that. It's all pH-based. So, you know, I think so, so yeah, we're each going to have 2 or 3 demonstrations. Um, people get to try things, people get. I, I, I hope that um, I think the thing that's cool about the techniques we're showing is that people can take a lot of these things
+
+[3:23] and uh, do them at home and like my big secret reveal is
+
+[3:27] going to be how to make black garlic in 3 days. Which, I think, like, last time you were here, you mentioned it, but we never talked about it, right? So you're going to have to pay. Here's what's going to happen. You have to come pay the museum to listen to it, and then afterwards, maybe we can reveal the secret on the show if we haven't already. But the technique, it's slightly different. The garlic's still black, but a different flavor from the one that is exactly the same. Exactly the same. Not even a little bit different because I thought before you said that it was a little bit different. Not your worst difference. We've dialed it in Oh, yeah? I mean, I think there's some flavor differences, but I think if you were a blind taste test, variations of black garlic, you would not be able to tell ours
+
+[4:11] versus... You wouldn't be able to tell that there was a difference or you wouldn't be able to choose which one was which? You would be able to choose. I think there's so many variations in what black garlic does because the process is 40 days at 140 degrees.
+
+[4:26] There's a lot of things that are going to affect how the flavor develops over that amount of time. That being said, I think our process has some differences just because I've tried it so much, but I don't think anyone could tell the difference. You know, I think I already talked about this on the show, but I was trying to come up with a new technique for this. When you're ready, I have a call. Oh, all right. Well, we'll take the caller 1st and then we'll get to it. her, on the air. Hello? Say that again. I said hi, this is Andrew from Pittsburgh. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing very well, thank you. How are you? All right, all right. Got a got a question? I hope you have some sort of cured meat question because we got Johnny here today. Unfortunately, I wish I had prepared a journey question because this would be the podcast to call in before with these guys here. Exactly. What do you got for us? Um, I have a question for um, flavored simple syrups, specifically herb simple syrups. Okay. Um, and kind of best practices for creating them and then kind of running a random slot I had about them um, Bayou. So, um, right now I'm thinking about doing, um, for things that are really delicate, like,
+
+[5:28] um, basil and cilantro and stuff like that, um, doing, um, like a blanched
+
+[5:33] up. So having uh, a pot of like cold symbol and then, uh, do a quick blanch, like cool symbol surrounded by uh, an ice water bath and then do a pot of boiled water, blanch it real quick, drop the herbs into the uh, cold symbol to kind of blanch them, um, and then,
+
+[5:50] uh, bring it up to uh, maybe like room temp and let them rind for a little bit to try to infuse. Um, instead of like blending it so you can come out with like a translucent, um, simple and not have
+
+[6:00] particular matter in the simple, like if you just blend it, uh, that could go bad and cause off flavors. Yeah, here's the problem. Once you blanch basil, it never tastes like basil again. Like, uh, you should um, go. I mean, like it'll taste like basil, but it won't taste like what you are thinking fresh basil
+
+[6:18] tastes like. Can I give a taste? Yeah, sure, but go back and read. The curious cook has a whole section on, the curious cook, the original book that's not out of print, but you can, I think, look at it online, has a whole thing about McGee, uh,
+
+[6:33] uh, trying to make uh, pesto and his travails in in Blanchard. Johnny, go ahead. So one of the things that we do a lot is the stems from the herbs. And do the cryo blanch centrifuge? Boom, really flavorful. And they stay for a long time? Yeah, yeah. Your oils don't turn at all if you if you are, your oils or your simple syrups don't turn at all. if you blend it when the crowd. Right. What you're trying to, what the whole point here, right, is I didn't know it worked with syrup. I've done it with oil. Yeah, we freeze the syrups too, and they hold really well. I have never done it with a syrup. Here's here's the thing. You have, what you're looking at is, uh, what you're looking at is trying to, uh, shoot the, um, the, uh, polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the head, right? And so you can shoot them in the head temporarily by like freezing with liquid nitrogen, you can do it by dehydrating the herb, right? Which is why like mint tea stays green, right? Or you can, but that also changes the flavor, or freeze frying. You can do it by, um, you can do it by blanching, which alters the flavor, right?
+
+[7:46] Uh, and uh, you can, the problem with freezing it without blanching it is that then when it thaws, if it's exposed to oxygen
+
+[7:54] again, and the enzymes can kick back into high gear because the freezing doesn't actually destroy the enzymes, right?
+
+[7:58] Now, I knew that if you mixed, uh, if you if you took that stuff and blended in with oil and then spun it out, there's no water in the
+
+[8:08] oil. And what happens there is the polyphenol oxidase enzymes can't operate in a complete lack of
+
+[8:13] water, so the oil stays nice and green and doesn't turn brown and getting brown flavors. I knew that, but apparently what I'm being told by Johnny. I think the sugar content, we noticed when the higher sugar contents were there with our simples that they would stay greener and brown when it was. Right. I mean, what I'm just learning now is that apparently, yeah, high sugar concentrations, the enzymes also can't work in a super high sugar
+
+[8:34] concentration, but I would keep it as high as possible, right? Like 66, rich simples, to give it, to give it a shot. Do you have an accent? Do you have access to liquid nitrogen? Oh, I do not, unfortunately, have an active liquid nitrogen at this time, because I mean, normally, if I was going to do that, then I would just, you know, do different nitrogen there too, like a nitro model drink. I'm sorry, I'm a bartender. So I'm trying to figure out ways to do this for the bar. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I would do, um, like, nitro model drinks, like, like, the ones that you have done, but I don't have access to
+
+[9:01] that, so I'm trying to figure out a way to make, like, flavored simple, but are, are self-stable. Um, Okay. If you don't have access, here's what I would try. and I don't know if this is going to work. But if I, if you didn't have access to um, liquid nitrogen or really to a good, uh, like a centrifuge. I would, uh, the problem is you can't really pass freaking, I would, I would make a, a, I would take extremely high proof ethanol, do a quick blend in high proof ethanol, strain it through a cheesecloth, and then, and
+
+[9:37] then, uh, dissolve that stuff into a syrup, like a really high, high, high brick syrup, and it maybe would
+
+[9:43] keep. Like a rich symbol? like super rich, as rich as you can get it before it crystallizes. And then maybe it's going to keep it. The problem is, is that you're not, going to be difficult to get a high quantity of herbs into a recipe like that because you're going through like a multi-step process versus just like freezing and
+
+[10:00] putting it in, especially if you don't have a centrifuge. If you have a centrifuge, then you can just, um, I mean, you could probably, I don't know, you could probably, have you tried blending it directly without the 1st freeze into a super
+
+[10:15] rich simple Johnny and spinning it out? No, but it would worry, especially if it's not the leaves, if you just join the stems. Well, I'll probably do the league. I mean, would you do the stems of the bed? you think that's a better idea or do you do the lead? Depends on the herbs, though. Some herbs, stems don't taste like the freaking... yeah. Yeah, ish. Yeah. You can concentrate it more too. You can just get like bunch in there. You're not spending lot of money. But like the Thai basil stems are like that weird color. Yeah, the purple. Which that turns always. Although, although purple basil, real purple, like fully purple basil, the color is awesome. But I've never tried to keep it, though. But anyway, here's my point. I would try, just try getting the richest, simple you can. Uh, it's just a, it's a pain in the ass, to strain rich, simple. Without a centrifuge. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a real pain in the behind. Yeah, I mean, most of the herb simple syrups that you see in bars are like sitting out on the table and they're like very brown
+
+[11:15] colored. Yeah, here's try this. But they're trying to make it probably some other way. why don't you get a very rich simple. I don't have no idea what this is going to work. Get a rich simple. Blend the herb into it and then let it sit in the freezer for like 3 days. Yeah. And the matter, the matter, the simple syrup, the very rich, simple won't freeze in the freezer. just get real sluggish. And maybe eventually the stuff will settle to the bottom because there's still going to be a liquid. Be like a clarification. Yeah. Although, a really rich simple. I wonder whether it was settled to the bottom or whether this stuff would float. You'll probably get some separation. I don't know Would it work? That's a good I think that's a good method to see how the, I think we can press. Would, um, would a scored the acid help at all with the, the polychenol, um, yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It slows it down. Like, you know, it's not gonna like, uh, it's not gonna completely stop everything, you know, in the same way that Linus Pauling didn't not die because he took all kind of vitamin C forever. But, you know, it will, yeah, it'll slow down. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't use, in any of your syrups, any of
+
+[12:22] the uh, sulfur-based antioxidants, because I think, you know, you can smell and taste those in pretty small concentrations if you're not, like, uh, dosing it exactly right. But yeah, scorbic acid's good to, it's always good to add to things. Just a regular .25%. Oh, is that way people use? I just you know what? Ascorbic acid. I just like, I'm just like, poof. I just put it in because it's got such a low flavor profile compared to most acids that
+
+[12:48] like I just, I literally just like, I like old school kitchen it. I like pinch of this. I'm a pinch of kind of a guy. Sorbic acid, yeah, it's definitely pinch. Yeah, pinch, yeah. Um, last question. As I was reading, because I was kind of, I mean, my 1st thought was your 1st
+
+[13:04] thought, I just turned to McGee for this. So I was reading on student cooking. Um, and I was going across, like, what we were talking about, how the actual flavor molecules are transmit, and you said that they're much more, um, easily dissolved with
+
+[13:17] oil, um, and I was thinking maybe yeast. Um, I'm kind of an emulsifier, almost to help buying the oil and bring them out of the
+
+[13:25] herb and I did not spend it, but this is all the herb, I guess, would be suspended in the, in the simple. Do you think that would help with extraction? Uh, well, if you want to make an herb oil. Like, you can make an herb oil, right? And then you just use an emulsifier, like I would use, like, the one that we always use, which is the tickoloid, and, um, which is a mixture of gum Arabic and Xanthan, and then you could put that
+
+[13:48] into, into simple, but I would do that right before. In other words, oil, because it doesn't have water in it, is going to be much more stable on the color and the
+
+[13:57] flavor, then once you then put that back into a liquid base. Although maybe not if it's really rich simple. I don't know, Johnny. I don't know. I mean, not, like, not actually to, like, emulsify and, like, some other oil, but,
+
+[14:09] like, this tiny little flavor molecules out of the herbs. Oh, no, no. In other words, do you think adding an emulsifier to the water when you're making a simple syrup is going to make the herbs taste better? I don't really think that's, no, I don't think it'll. I mean, hey, look it. I've been wrong so many times in my life, like, you know, that, but I, I don't think it will help. But you know what? Run a side by side. Like, just run, choose a couple different emulsifier, do a side by side, and then tweet us back and let us know or call back and let us know what happens. There might be something that we're not thinking about that would work. Yeah, I mean, that's the great thing. But you have another call, and then I'm going to actually shut the phone lines now, because we got a lot to get to. Oh, man, wow, shut the fuck up. Caller, you're on the air. Hi Dave, how's it going? Hey, um, so I just uh, came back from Mexico City with the Knicks
+
+[14:58] dramatic. Oh, nice. It's freaking awesome. Now you call both, you probably, are you, give me like a rundown of like, you know, tips and
+
+[15:07] uh, how you use it. Right. Now you called earlier, right? I did, exactly. Okay, the trick with the Knicks domatic. So for those of you that don't know what we're talking about, uh, when you, uh, in fact, we're going to talk about an
+
+[15:19] extimilization at the museum event, uh, in 2 days, uh, Johnny and I. So like, uh, you know, what you do is, is you soak uh, par cook and soak uh, traditionally corn in an alkaline and calcium rich
+
+[15:33] environment, and then it makes the corn somewhat softer. It also turns the outside of the corn into what amounts to a hydrocolloid so that the masa, which is what you make tortillas out of, has the, you know, the characteristic texture, which is why you can make with just corn, you can make awesome, well, and
+
+[15:49] calcium and, you know, you can make awesome tortillas. Problem is, it is extremely difficult to grind
+
+[15:56] nixtimalized corn in a modern kitchen because to use like a Cuisinard
+
+[16:02] Aerobicoup takes too much water. Uh, you know, Indian wet grinders like I've been using recently, which we could talk about later if you want. Uh, you know, they don't handle a dough that's as stiff as masa. Blenders get choked up on it. Um, regular grinders, like, um, uh, sorry, like uh, mills, like flour mills are freaking useless for it. And so it's actually kind of very difficult process to do at home. So there's this thing called the nextomatic, which is, frankly, just a very robo version of the universally detested Colombian made
+
+[16:34] corona corn mill, which is just like a hyper low quality, uh, iron casting, uh, like grind wheel that just, you know, grinds corn, but like, uh, the
+
+[16:46] coronas, I hate them. Do you like them, Johnny? don't use them. Oh, because they're because they're terrible or just because you've never used them? Yeah, I never thought to you. horrible. So the Knicks domatic is like is like about 30 steps up. One because it's got a big robo motor on it, and two, the plates are a little bit better. But the plates on the Nick Stomatic still aren't, uh, let me say, they don't come out of the
+
+[17:08] factory working. You know what I mean? Like, if you look at them like they're, they're really rough. So they're not designed for kind of the American mentality of, I'm going to spend a lot of money on a nice piece of equipment and so it should work. It's more like you have to grind those grind wheels into submission.
+
+[17:28] So like mine, if you look at mine now, it's
+
+[17:32] literally a masa wheel when you look at it. When you're looking at like a normal grindstone, like for a regular Western, like for
+
+[17:39] a weed or dry corner or whatnot, like the grooves that are in the in the grindstone, like
+
+[17:44] the, you know how they go, the grooves in the grindstone should alternate in direction and they form like shears, like scissors that as you go, like shear instead of
+
+[17:52] crushing, shear this stuff, right? And those grooves also act as transport from the stuff to the from the inside to the outside. So, um, here, you want the outside to basically almost not have any grooves left.
+
+[18:05] You want it to be pretty flat because the masa is like partially sheared at the beginning, but really it should be smashed into little pieces because you want it
+
+[18:13] to almost be like a stone matate mano grinding it out. And the clearance needs to be pretty fine because the moss is not supposed to be coarse on the finest
+
+[18:20] setting and it just won't work that way. Because I think if you're looking at your plates, you can see kind of big holes on the outside of
+
+[18:26] the where the 2 grindstones meet. See, it's got to run that sucker and your 1st 3 times 4 times that you make masa. You going to have to run it through 2 and 3 times. This texture's still not going to be right. But keep bearing down on that freaking plate. And then as you go, it's just, you're looking at it, it's going to be smoother and smoother around the periphery of the stones as they true themselves to each other and become kind of better made
+
+[18:48] it, and then your boss is just going to get better and better. Okay, so you're really tightening that. Oh yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. Do you have any, because I kind of, I tried running it through a 2nd time and like it was pretty tough to really get it through. Oh yeah, it is. Um, so you just really bear down on it. Oh yeah. Okay. Here's the thing. Do not run the next to Matt to the point where the wheel stops for more than about 10 seconds.
+
+[19:15] That's what I did like a month ago when I was making nut butter with it 2 months ago and I was making nut butter with it and I like
+
+[19:24] added, I told, I think I told you, I added sugar to the nuts. Yes, yes. Yeah. No sugar, right? Do not know, dude, no ever, never, never add sugar to the nuts when you're, when you're grinding them, it just like totally sees the machine. And I really had a nuclear like puff. Like, you know, like, like, a mushroom cloud of smoke and, like, you know, phenolic, like, insulation smell behind it and it turned off. It came back on. Actually, we're testing it. doing miximalization at the museum thing, you know, and so
+
+[19:54] like, we're going to see like probably tomorrow, we're going to run the test on it to see whether it still has still has its huevos left, whether it still has enough huevos to grind masa. we're hoping it does Have you ever used a meat grinder for Masa? No, but I mean, like, like, what kind of plate would you put it through? Just like the tiniest dye. I don't know. you tried it? yeah we use it. How courses? going to be for more like for tamales. tortillas. We make tortillas with it. We run it to a couple times. works pretty well. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's not like, it's not nearly as good as like a stone grinder, but like, I'm pretty happy with the, especially, I think, if you used it
+
+[20:29] first and then ran it through. You could probably save yourself some time. I've never owned a real meat grinder. I just owned those KitchenAid things, which are monstrosities. Yeah, I mean, a real grippy grinder will put it through fast enough, and the blade will be like the
+
+[20:43] motor's powerful enough to really get like a pretty smooth texture. Yeah, but you're talking about like the, the, the big ones where you soak the plates in the, in the, in oil when you're done for the end of the night. Exactly, yeah. Benchtop ones, at least minimum. Yeah. You know what? dont work? The KitchenAid ones. Worst piece of equipment. You know, what's even worse than that is their flour mill. You ever use that? No. It's a wretched. It's just wretched. Their apostate shooter is pretty terrible as well. You know why? Because it's based on their meat grinder. Yeah. Which is, hey, I love kids, my kitchen aid. I'm not trying to say anything negative about the KitchenAid here. But all plastic pieces for attachments is going to be... Yeah, also, there's just something like, I've used real meat
+
+[21:23] grinders, like, you know, back when I was teaching at the FCI, and like my impression of a real meat grinder is meat wants to go in one end and come out the other.
+
+[21:31] That was not my impression with the KitchenAid. It wants to come back up. Yeah, yeah. It wants to spit back in your face. Which is not what you want me to do. No, and you're raising your temperature way too high. Oh, super high. You think it's because the choke point's too small at the end of the die or just because it's just bad? I think the machinery itself, there's like too much movement and it's not
+
+[21:51] like, it's bending and it's not like, it's not like 2 pieces of metal with a powerful motor. Yeah, I mean, the only luck I've ever had with the KitchenAid one is where you have to really make sure you cut the stuff into strips. Yeah. Like, and then you have to because they have to fit into the in between the auger and the tube assembly without, like, having too much compression, right? And you need to basically parfreeze everything. Which then kind of messes up your texture if it's like a little bit frozen. That's the only way I've been able to use my kitchen egg right now. It's fun to see people who have never used a real meat grinder. You know, you get like the the standing mix, the standing grinder that can do, you know, £300 in like 4 minutes. And they're like, what? Like, this would save us so much time. But what do you, are you, are you grinding tomorrow at the, uh, on Thursday at the, at the event? Yeah. What are you going to use, crappy kitchen egg, right? No, a friend of mine who works at a restaurant. I was like, dude, I can't use a kitchen egg. I gotta borrow yours. let me use it. Nice. Nice. what are you stuffing with a regular £5 vertical guy? Yeah, I think it's a little LEM one. I think it might be a 10 pound, so... The only one I've owned. I remember back in the day when we were teaching at the FCI, they were going to start teaching sausage stuffing. And, like, I turned them on to, like, the, the $80 version of the £5 stuffer that they sell at, like, grizzly. Yeah. Really bad welds on that thing. Stuffed sausage fine though. Yeah, so sauce is fine. Actually, that was the 1st stuffer we had, and someone who used to work for us is getting married this summer. Oh, for a wedding present. Yeah? You're giving them the 8995 grizzly? Yep. yeah. He's pretty stoked. Yeah. Well, it should be. like, you know, here's the thing. My only concern with that is that if you were going to actually use it to get certified, the welds are so shitty that the NSF people,
+
+[23:32] I don't know how the hell they sell it. You know what I mean? it's basically like, you know, it's its own. uh, it's its own backslop because it's always holding some sweet, sweet business from your last time
+
+[23:43] around. You know what I mean? Yeah, the inspectors come in and just, you're gonna kill somebody. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we all got to go sometime. Yeah, yeah. All right. So, uh, caller, I hope I answered some. that even answered a question or do we just talk about next to Mattics? I think you got it. Because he was wanting to know how to prep it. Alright. All right. So, um, now, should we take a quick break and then come back or no? Yeah. All right, take a quick back. and cooking issues. All right, here we go.
+
+[24:34] Inspired by the finely crafted tools built at the hands of friends in and around custom knife
+
+[24:45] making, and with the love of all things food, Abe Shaw began forging a collection of culinary tools unlike any
+
+[24:51] other, collecting and working with custom and handmade knives for over a decade, Abe has developed a deep respect and admiration for the artists, metalsmiths, woodworkers, and craftspeople behind the endless interpretations of these ancient
+
+[25:04] tools that The most intimate tools in our lives. They needed a showcase, an eating tools was born. The curated collection of unique and extraordinary handmade culinary utensils you'll find
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+[25:15] here, along with a handpicked selection of top quality production made pieces, represents a catalog of products never before assembled in one place. Many of these products can only be found at eating tools. Food cooking, craftsmanship, and art are their ingredients. There's no substitute for having the right tool for the job, and eating tools promises to bring you just that. They think you'll agree that the food loving visionaries behind each of their products has an eye for the tools we use
+
+[25:41] every day. For more information, visit eatingtools.com. New Sponsor Jack? Oh, yeah, that is a new sponsor, a new business member. Eating tools, huh? That's what that's what we get called all the time, right? Eating tools. So what's on their website? Like, what do they sell? Are they are they are they just selling other people's eating tools? Yeah, I believe so. You don't have to visit the website. Johnny, are you familiar with these guys? No, they were the 1st sponsor over the 1st tattoo, was that? Really? Sam, are you an eating tool? Are you familiar with the eating tools? I'm not. I have a chat room comment. Two two-part comment. A lot of good stuff happening right now about backslop is the comment. Oh, yeah. And then, um, more more stars was the comment from the channel. I didn't say who it was. I know it's Jordan. All right. Well, from Jordan, a friend of a friend of the program. Actually, you know, actual friend, like, you know, uh, the sheep, uh, like recently wrote Alex Dupak's taco book, which we, I think we discussed that last week. She had a question in a tattoo artist friend of mine uses citrus as a canvas for fine artwork made with a tattoo gun.
+
+[26:57] Oh, mine too. Is this the same lady? No, different friend. Not Amanda? Nope, nope, nope, nope. All right. Wants to think about methods of preserving the work. Since obviously it rots. And, you know, what do you think? Well, here's the thing. Like, I think if you're going to make back in the day, I just would have videotaped it rotting and then just had like sequences of like shots or time
+
+[27:20] lapse. Like, I would have just taken like pictures of it, like as it rotted and then like blowing them up like super big on the wall
+
+[27:26] because remember, like with art, just like multiply, like multiplying things and like, you know, putting big things up on the wall equals awesome.
+
+[27:34] But let's take this problem seriously. Now the issue is with citrus, you can't preserve citrus and alcohol without leaching the color.
+
+[27:45] Like, that's the thing. Like, you'd think you could preserve it like in alcohol. And apparently she wants to eventually do it in resin. The problem with preserving things like fruit and resin is you need to get rid of the water to preserve it in resin. Like all those things that you see that like flowers and resin and stuff, they've all been dehydrated first. And the problem with dehydrating something as large as a piece of citrus is that
+
+[28:08] it has to, you have to get it to shrink slowly. I mean, I have successfully dried whole citrus and you go to the market all the time. You see those dried lemons and dried citrus, but they're small and dark
+
+[28:20] brown. You know what I mean? They're not like, you know, looking like a tattoo, which, yeah, it could be its own thing. But, um, You could also, I mean, you could try replacing a large portion of the water with glycerin, which is how they preserve a lot of flowers. They'll do a glycerine soak, and then as it dehydrates, it doesn't lose as much volume, but I think you're going to have problems. You could preserve it in simple syrup, right? By changing the concentration in simple syrup, but you're still going to get some color bleed. You could do it with old school, you could try formalin, like the way that they do, but that's kind of gross. Here's what I think you should try to do. I think you should freeze dry it. The color's going to look more pastel, but it will retain its exact shape than what you can
+
+[29:02] do. is you could, after you freeze dry it, You can paint it with a, um, like a resin coat on the
+
+[29:09] outside, and that should rebrighten the colors substantially over the kind of weird pastel note that you get on the freeze grind.
+
+[29:18] The problem with freeze drying large things is it's not what food people normally do. You have to go to like a taxidermist specialist who specializes in freeze drying kind of like animals
+
+[29:28] and... She wants to know if you can diet after freeze drying. What do you mean, diet? Like diet. I mean, tattoo it or diet? I would imagine diet, like a color. Oh, man, probably. You could paint something, you could probably spray it or dip it. I mean, it's just a very light porous and you remove the water. Once you remove the water, it's fragile, like it can break, so you're going to want to seal it right away or encase it in something kind of, um, encase it in something so it doesn't kind of crack open. But, I mean, I guess you could dye it. But I mean, I thought the whole point was to preserve it as it was when it was tattooed, in which
+
+[30:01] case we want diet. Right? Am I wrong about this, guys? I'm gonna take a call. We have a caller. All right, call her, you're on the air. Kim Gordon. Come on, it is not. You're making it up. Who do we got, caller? Hi. Hi, this is Chris from the green zone. How you doing? Good, good. Otherwise known as Aladdin saying to Jack. All right, so what do we got? Yeah, so I mentioned to you on, I think, Instagram that I had some Turkish coffee tips for you. Oh, yeah? How's been going with that? I have not, I have not been doing it recently. I need to get back into it. My mocholete is still just a pile of coffee grounds. I haven't cleaned it out, so it's still, I'm still set up to do it, uh,
+
+[30:47] because, uh, I think I mentioned last time I, I, uh, kind of was hand pulverizing it. None of the coffee mills I had were really making a fine enough kind of grind to do the
+
+[30:56] Turkish or Greek, depending on how you think about it. My problem is, I can't get, I can't get a really good foam. I can get it to rise kind of once, but I can't get it to rise again and I've not. I've not had something where I was like, see, here's my, I think I've said this before on the show. My feeling is anything that has a super long pedigree, right? And I've tasted good Turkish coffee, right? Yeah. But I haven't made that cup for myself yet where I'm like, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know, I do know what you mean. I was in Beirut for 3 weeks over Christmas and New Year, and I had nothing to do at home but make Turkish
+
+[31:34] coffee. And I was really craving my favorite cup from Istanbul. So I searched YouTube for some videos and there's actually a video where in Turkish she tells you how he makes it. And his method is quite different to everything else I've seen and I tried it for myself and, you know, amazingly, it works. I basically use way more coffee than you think you need. And then stir it, add a little bit of hot water to it, and stir it really finely to make a taste of the coffee, and then add more hot water, stir it again so it's all as homogenized as you can get it, and then put that on the flame. And since the water's already hot, it starts foaming very, very soon, but it creates this really
+
+[32:11] thick, dense foam. And uh, I can send you the video later, but it really works and it's so counter to every other Turkish coffee that I've seen. I mean, he's using a rapid flame or is he doing like a moderated like either with a plate or with sand? No, no, he's using just an open gas flame. So exactly the opposite of everything that like we're told is what makes it good. Yeah, I mean, nobody nobody in like anywhere in the Middle East really uses the plate of sense seriously. just do that for show. Yeah. All right. Well, look, send us the video because, like, I'm because here's what I want to have happen. I want to make some Turkish coffee and say, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I want to have happen. Yeah, I think you'll get that. It took me, you know, once I saw how he did it, it took me several times to get it, but now I'm
+
+[32:59] fairly consistent. And so now that you've described it in English, we can put it out on the, put it on the chat room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need like, as long as as I know roughly what's going on, I can kind of watch the hands to figure out everything. Yeah. I think I've said that on the show too before, like, it's like, it's almost sometimes better when you can't understand what a cook is
+
+[33:19] saying as long as you can see what their hands are doing. You know what I mean? So, Dave, we're running kind of tight, but I have to get this MoFAD ad in the show. Can I take 60 seconds here, or less, actually, for this ad? Especially since it has such a nice flow, MoFad ad. Exactly, doesn't it? So let's check this out. Hi, this is Peter Kim, the executive director of Mofad, the Museum of Food and Drink. New York City's 1st food museum with exhibits you can eat. MoFad was founded by Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here on Heritage Radio Network. We just opened up MoFad Lab, our new gallery space in Brooklyn, where we are currently showing flavor, making it and faking it.
+
+[33:57] Flavor dives into the untold story of the $25 billion flavor industry, raising questions about what natural and artificial really mean. And at MoFad Lab, you can taste and smell the exhibits. Flavor tablets, deliver tastings of vanilla and umami, and the piano like smell synth lets you compose over half a 1000000 different flavors. So come on by and visit Mofad Lab. We're located at 62 Bayard Street, near McCarren, Bargain, Brook. Oh, God damn it. It is a family show. And I knew I could hear him almost laughing. Was Nastasi, were you here trying to make him laugh the whole time? I looked at him the whole time. Oh man. I don't know. A couple weeks ago on the show, Peter was on. And a couple, and like, he tried to make me crack up during the
+
+[34:42] thing, and you just can't do it because I'm not a human being. I don't respond to things like that. You know what I mean? And so Stas, I guess, trying to show her medal as a as a ruiner of his good time. I could hear it about. I didn't know you... I smile. I didn't even know halfway through. I didn't even know Stas was there during the taping. and I could hear his voice change to that pre-laughing Peter voice. But we have to we have to bleep out the FU for the trip. Okay, I'll add a bleep for the podcast. for the podcast. Yeah. Kids aren't listening live. Oh, right. They're not listening live. They should be in school. Yeah, if they're not at school then, you know. Good point. Good point. Now, uh, I can't believe that. Yeah, I heard him laughing. Here's it, like here's some other things, though. Not really piano like the Smilsynth. No. Not a not like a piano, more like Street Fighter. You know? What do you think, Sam? Yeah, I'd say arcade like. Arcade like. What was your favorite? How old are you? 26. Man. So, like, like, arcade games weren't, like, when I was a kid, arcade games were, like, me, like, you know, and you put in like a,
+
+[35:54] like, a quarter and played a game. Is that what it's like when you were a kid? I feel like I'm more of the Mario Kart generation, so our kids were a little...
+
+[36:02] getting go to arcades? I went to a few. I went to arcades. Yeah, I went to arcades. Do they still have arcades? They're making a comeback. There's like pizza places that have arcade games. There's barcade over here in Williamsburg. Is it good? Yeah, it's great. You know, if you like arcade games, you should go to the museum of, uh, what's it called, Museum of Moving Image in Queens? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have a, like, arcade games are considered a moving image, and so they have a section on arcade games, which is pretty cool. Or the Museum of Food and Drink. To to play on the arcade game like Smelsynth. Yeah. It is the same kind of like as like the Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat. Oh my god. So I brought my kids there this weekend, uh, Booker and Dax, and, uh, And of course, they just walked up to the
+
+[36:51] dam sense and so, try to see if they could push every button at once. And like, I looked over and I just see a wall of light. Like, like every light lighting up. And I was like, yep. Yep, my kids are here. Uh, okay. Let me see. Let's get some of the, we have time to get, we can get some of these questions. Oh yeah, totally. All right. Here's a good one. That's it. I'm not going to be able to get to all the questions, unfortunately, but a welder friend of ours, this is from James. A welder friend of ours in Boston has graciously agreed to build us a fire pit slash pig machine slash grill to take care of our warming and cooking needs.
+
+[37:24] He'll be building it out of scrap metal based on our specs. I wanted to toothpick your minds to give him the proper direction. Below are a few questions. What's a good shape and size? We were thinking 6 foot long, 3 foot wide, and 2 foot deep on legs. And what's the best height for those? We want to have a grilled top attachment and a spit with a shelf that we could mount to a motor. Any amount of motor to? Any recommendations on adding a shelf and are there any models listed online that you could use as a visual reference? I'll just go there right now. I hate almost all commercial, the crappy commercial rotisseries. I'm sure there's a very good actual commercial rotisserie, but whenever I've built rotisseries, I
+
+[38:01] use, um, I use actual like gear motors, like Bodine, brand, like AC, like fractional
+
+[38:08] horsepower, gear motors. The problem with most rotisserie motors is there's there's play in the gears so that when the shaft goes over its dead center point, because you're never going to have your meat on there properly, it goes
+
+[38:22] chunk and moves into the next position where the gears aren't driving anymore. And then over time, that just, it sucks for a rotisserie because it means that if your spit job's not perfect, there's like
+
+[38:33] a, there's like a, force on your meat every time as it spins around and it's just, it's just crap.
+
+[38:39] And then you can see it accelerate up the one side of the curve and fall down the other. I hate it. I hate it. Real gear motor. Uh, is the way to go on the anyway. And lastly, is there a place that you know of where we could purchase a motor? Oh, okay. Just think of all the heartwarming. you have one of those motors. The thing is you want to keep it away from the heat. You know what I mean? You want to like shield it pretty well from the heat, uh, which means uh, either like connect the shaft, make the shaft long and let it bleed off enough heat before it gets to the shaft. If it's getting custom built, then they could put a space where the motor... a little bit farther away from the fire. Yeah. You know, also, I like, you know what I like? I like the uh, I like the flat spade drive on a uh, on a rotisserie thing. So you have like, um, you keep it mainly round. See, if you keep it mainly, the other thing with the rotisserie is like you want it to go in and out really quickly. You don't want to have to futz around with it. So you want very easy to engage on the one side and then you want to drop it basically into its bearing on the other side without having a lot
+
+[39:45] of a lot of messing around. The best ones I've used, I think, are the flat drive ones, like the Italian style ones that Mark has, Mark Ladner. Um, I've always kind of wanted to design one that you could just drop in like sprocket style and have it
+
+[40:00] go. That would be nice. It would be sick. Um, the other thing is, uh, spits, most spits suck. They really most bits just really, really suck pretty hard. Um, but do you have any recommendations on this stuff, Johnny, on the firepit? The thing is, I don't like I don't like doing things that are multiple pieces of equipment, you know? I don't, I like to have, like if I was to have a custom rotisserie built. I would want it to be set up so that it was like really good heat dispersion, not so that I could also grill and smoke on it. So you're the anti-Alton brown. Yeah. You're like, you're like the ultimate unit taskmaster. I mean, for like major pieces of cooking equipment. So Johnny, Johnny, your basic theory is this, listen, go get yourself a warehouse. Go get yourself a warehouse and then fill it with large pieces of single use equipment. I have a warehouse full of. Ah, seems to work. But the one thing I the one thing I will say on on multitasking, because I've converted things to rotisseries before, I've converted like my salamander to a rotisserie. I've built rotisseries. Well, here's another thing, like, are you okay with doing rotisserie over a normal
+
+[41:13] grill? Are you backfired only? I'm okay over normal girl, but I do think the backfire is is like a more even cooking. The thing on a rotisserie is if you're going to do, it all depends on what you're going to do. If you're going to do really, really fast kind of style rotisseries, like very small, almost like kebab style rotisseries, you can go old school and just do the hand turning.
+
+[41:37] So those, they always use flat, spiral round, skewers, and little triangular shaped, uh,
+
+[41:42] V-grooves that they sit in, and then you just, it's not really a rotisserie. turn, turn, turn, turn, turn, 4 turns and done out, right? Or you can have like a faster kind of smaller rotisseries. But the problem with doing a large thing, like a pig in a rotisserie situation on over a fire is
+
+[42:01] that you get a lot of flare ups, and although that can add to flavor, it's kind of hard to regulate, as Johnny says, so
+
+[42:07] the best. You're getting too much fat. drip down and yeah. You have a few time. All right, hold on a sec. So, all right. here's okay, so we can talk more about this next time. Ill get to the herbs next time. The other question is, we'll probably say one thing about MoFat on the way out. But one thing I'll say is here's the problem with trying to create something that big. Most of the time you are going to want to do smaller things for you and your family, like,
+
+[42:29] like, if you're, it's a big difference, cooking for, you're going to want to be able to cook for like 20, 30 people, 40
+
+[42:36] people at a party, great, but it's, it's a lot different when you're only cooking for one or two, especially when you're using
+
+[42:42] natural, uh, like woods and charcoals and stuff like that. Because the amount of wood or charcoal that you're going to have to use to fire your
+
+[42:51] thing up, if it's huge, it's going to be astronomical, the amount of time it's going to take to get a big honking machine up to cooking, because those big machines are built on being like kind of big. And
+
+[43:03] like, yeah, and so like, I would definitely invest at least in a smaller area that can be heated on its
+
+[43:08] own, that you can cook smaller amounts of food for smaller groups of people, and then allow yourself a monster area where you can go completely ape for larger
+
+[43:16] things. What do you think, Johnny? I felt like it was someone who was doing this professionally. Oh. Oh, that's different. Because, like, who gets a custom worlded smoker box just for, you know, parties? I would. Yeah, but like, I don't know. I mean, that's true. I hadn't thought about that Well, right back in, let us know what the intended application is. But I do think your point of having something where you can fire up just a small box and, you know, you know, do like
+
+[43:45] one rotisserie chicken is going to be beneficial. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, not for a restaurant, but yeah. Well, in any case, so Sam, you want to say anything about the museum where they can get tickets to this extravaganza? Yeah, so go to programs.mofat.org. It's on Thursday from 6.30 to 8.30. It looks like there's about 6 tickets left. And John Johnny will stuff your sausage while you're there. Yeah, we sold 9 tickets just now? sweet. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna do my old school trick, which is off the blog. So it's old of Nixtamalized Rye. I got a new technique with using baking soda to do a clear
+
+[44:25] dulce de leche syrup, which is just done with milk and a pressure cooker, which is pretty cool. Uh, and uh, Sam has graciously made the lye eggs, which we haven't made in a long time since the last time we did the McGee course at the FCI, clear,
+
+[44:40] lie pickle. We going to do the inverse Lutfisk. Lute Fisk. All right, that's it for cooking issues. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program has been brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the
+
+[0:05] soil and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Avertis Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:40] Brooklyn, every Tuesday from, nah, you know, like 12 or so, you know. No big deal. No big deal, like 1250, something like that. Call in your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Join as usual with Nastasia, the hammer. Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah. And Jack Jackie molecules in the booth. I'm here full of molecules. Oh, yeah, as are we all, as are we all. You know, again, not to belabor the point too much, but that was like the whole point of the flavor exhibit at the museum. We're all just big sacks of molecules. You know what I mean? Peter couldn't come today. He's going to Ethiopia tomorrow. Oh, Peter Kim, the guy running the food museum now. Headed off to Ethiopia, where his wife lives. Hopefully he'll bring us back some more delicious Ethiopian coffee and spices and whatnot. You know what you should bring back this time? He should bring back. Are you allowed to bring grains back? I don't know. Like uncooked grains? Teff. I'll look. I want some good tef because now, you know, I can I can tef it up strong now. I got the wet grinder. I can go crazy. And speaking of wet grinder. Uh, you did, did you taste the mustard that Johnny brought lesson? It's good, right? So we use that at our at the demo at the at MoFad. Uh, and big shout out to uh, Mark, Bystrom, who's the beverage director of the underground food collective, who made that mustard, and here's where it ties back in
+
+[2:09] in a wet grinder, grinds it for like 3 days in a wet grinder to get the texture right, and the wet grinder is my new old favorite piece of equipment that I just got a new one
+
+[2:19] of, and a question, if we get to it, you never know. A question will come up later in the in the podcast about wet grinders and whatnot. So, anything good or bad happening? No. How is your Monday night bachelor celebrations? Yeah. See, it's like a been a banner week for you. You had your Super Bowl. And you made Jack, check this out. Mark Ladner, right? Made the chili at Nastasia's Super Bowl party. Here are 2 facts. One. He has never made chili before. Really? He has never made chili before. Never. And fact two, he put cumin in it, which, as we all know, as anyone who, you know, anyone who loves life knows that you need cumin in in your
+
+[3:13] chile or what is it, does? Or it's a beef tomato stew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mark put cumin in it. And here's here's the fun fact of the day. Nastasia enjoyed it. was good. Wow. I feel like I think you were biased. No, I would not even know. It doesn't matter. Oh, please. Please, please. Nastasia, bias towards just like, oh, my boyfriend made it, so it's good. No, my boyfriend made it so it's bad. It has to be like 3 times. So that's more of a chance it would. yeah it would have gone the other way. I see you're saying. Oh, yeah. Right. You kidding me? So besides, you don't generally like chili, huh? I love chili. Oh, okay. I do. I don't like cumin. If I put it in myself, I would hate the chili. Not seeing it Yeah, but you know, the other thing is... like a taxi driver. What the hell kind of crazy racist bull crap is that? Like one taxi driver I had long ago. Sounds like that. People. Are you getting a little taste of what I have to deal with on a daily basis? Sometimes there's a smell memory that you just smell memory in my butt. All right, listen, here's the other thing. Is it, but back on the, you know, honestly, like Nastasi would have loved nothing better than to have hated the chili because it should have been
+
+[4:28] like, big famous chef can't even cook chili, can't even cook chili, right? You would have loved that. Love, love. Love. All right. Got some questions. This one goes out 1st because I want I want the chat room to weigh in on this guy. Jarvis from Milwaukee writes in. Hey, Dave, and Stas, and Jackie Molecules. In a month and a half , my new wife to be, and I, wait, new wife to be, right? New wife to be, not new wife, new wife to be. The moment where you're able to, what do you say? Break off the marriage. Well, look, you know, it's I've said it like many, many times over many, many years. The worst thing in the world is fiance, right? That's like an open target. That's like, it's like deer season. You know what I mean? It's like, because look, here's the thing, right? One of them's, you know, popped the question, bought the ring or whatever, the other one said yes, right? Now you're in this moment. You're about to make this big, huge, you know, hopefully permanent commitment, but you haven't done it
+
+[5:35] yet, right? You haven't walked down the aisle yet. So anyone, if they had the 2nd thoughts. That's when the 2nd thoughts, that's when they're creeping in. That's why, you know, I mean, I won't go into the actual personal people that I know this has happened to, but that's why, you know,
+
+[5:50] if you're going to make the move, that's when you make the move. Not that I, I don't think you should make a move on someone who is engaged. Never. I would never say that. That's a terrible thing to say. But what I'm saying is, is you're at that moment where you're about to dive in the pool. So you either get off the diving board or you dive in the pool, you pivot one way, you pivot the other, but it's like a momentous kind
+
+[6:10] of a decision. You know? They're 2nd guessing. I'm not saying you're 2nd guessing, Jarvis, or your wife to be is 2nd guessing. I'm not saying about you personally. I'm not. Salas, come on now. Jack, you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, because look, not everyone is meant to be together, but they still say yes. My feeling about this. But this is not a marriage show, but it could be. That's jack in my dream. Yeah, true. This is a marriage? No, that's like a personal show. Yeah, the show issues with Nastasia and Jack. Oh, okay, just regular issues. Here's here's a little fun fact for you. Most people I know who have gotten married and then gotten a divorce. Everybody said, they knew at the time it was the wrong thing to do. They knew when they were walking down the aisle that it was a freaking mistake. What are you supposed to do at that moment? Well, that's what I'm telling you. Don't get to that moment. Let me tell you. Here's the thing, right? Look, this is this is what is terrible about the whole Magilla, the wedding Magilla, right? Is that there's 1000s of, like, you start spending money. There's 1000s of dollars. All your friends are happy. Your family's happy. Everyone's happy. You're probably even happy, but you have this nagging thing in your head. And the people who break up... I have no idea. I don't have an egg. I been married over 20 years. I know, but what do you think these people? I have no idea. All I know is that, you know, I said, you know, you talk afterwards, you get the postgame highlights of the marriage, and they knew when they were walking down the aisle. They knew it. It's like going to see a movie you didn't really want to see, you know, and then it starts, you're there. And then your back of your mind, you're like, I knew I didn't want to see this movie. Maybe it's something like that. Because you have to stay. You have to go through with it. Yeah, yeah. Once you're in. At least it's dark. Anyway, so, Jarvis, this has nothing to do with you. Okay, so back to your question. Wife to be we'll be traveling to Seattle for our honeymoon. What a tangent. Oh, so you actually about to get married. Good. So in a month and a half it's going to be over. None of this fiance crap. Still hasn't let the math? It's also the only thing, you could be a boyfriend and a girlfriend or whatever. You can be going out with someone forever. I know, you know, look, look at you, Stas. How many years? I don't know. Yeah, like forever you can go out. You know what I mean? Well you're saying this moment. Well, yeah. Like, like married? You could do that until you die. You know what I mean? This fiance is like the least permanent freaking thing on earth. You know what I mean? It's like, it's specifically designed to not be a permanent situation. You know what I mean? It is inherently unstable. Yeah, anyway, back to the question. You're convincing him not to do. I'm not. I'm saying go through with the wedding. That's what I'm saying. I mean, with no other knowledge in my head. anyway. Seattle for our honeymoon. That's an interesting choice. Seattle for the honeymoon? What do you think, Stas? I think maybe it's based on cheapness. My friends chose South Carolina or something. Really? Because the flight was like $64 and I was like, my sister just got married. St. Lucia said it was amazing. Yeah, see, that's nice. I say, if you're going to do a honeymoon, just like go all out. I don't know, deal with it later. I was we went to Italy on our honeymoon. Italy. That's how my grandma says it. Yeah? Yeah, that's where we went. bottle, too. Yeah, because we had never been and it was, you know, life changing was awesome. Anyways, we are going to eat and drink as much as we can and wanted to know if you had any can't miss spots that you could recommend.
+
+[9:43] We scheduled a tour of modernist cuisine and also chef steps reached out to us and said we can tour also. We will be doing some hiking, going to wineries, et cetera. I thought in the past episode you mentioned there was a place in the state of Washington where either apples or some fruit or something was being
+
+[9:59] preserved and they have a museum there. Hmm, I don't remember. You remember that? Oh no. Portland. I mean, Oregon. Corvallis. Uh, they have all of the, all of the pairs, and uh, I think they also do, they do pairs and they do berries, but that's in Corvallis, which is a
+
+[10:16] hike, uh, and don't, don't tell the Seattle people that you think that the, that the, Oregon's the same thing, or you'll be in deep doodoo with them. Um, where either apples or some fruit or something was being preserved and they have a museum there. I hope that makes sense because I can't remember and tried to go back to your old podcast, but can't find it because they're not in the database, Jack. What's not in the database? No one can search our old podcast. It hard. Here they can. Whatever. I couldn't find stuff I was looking for the other day. Yeah, whatever, fair enough. Whatever. Okay, so listen, I don't know. Is anyone, any of our people who are from Seattle. or thereabouts. Why don't you answer in on the chat room this question? Chef Tom Douglas. That's who you want to look for. He's got like a dozen restaurants, really cool guy. We've done some stuff with them before. Yeah. Nice. So look up Tom Douglas. All right. But also, if anyone has any wrecks, any recommendation, and they're in on the chat room, shoot them on over to Jarvis in Milwaukee.
+
+[11:10] I hope I didn't say anything bad about me. I didn't say anything bad about marriage. I'm pro-marriage. I know, I know, Dave. All right. But I wanted to get that one out 1st so people can write their recommendation to him. Ben wrote in. It was a couple weeks ago. We were just getting into it now on milk. I've been making the chef steps express espresso martini a lot recently. I hate, like, turning the S to an X, but sometimes, sometimes when it's worse, worse, people in my family do it. I don't know why. correct them? I don't, you don't correct your family, do you? You correct your family? Yeah, when they say espresso, this is what you do. just make that just make that noise. You know what, though? You know what I say? Nucular. New Q lure. Why? Because who wants to say nuclear? Nuclear. It's look, it's nuclear. Like when you're talking about the nucleus or like you're actually referring to something scientific, nuclear is fine. When you have a bomb, it's nuclear. Go nuclear. Do you go nuclear on someone or do you go freaking nuclear on them? I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. There's another one. coupon. I'm a coupon guy. Coupon. I clip my coupons. What about you? Are you a coop or a coop? I like to clip coupons. Jack, what about you? Coupon. It might be a Long Island thing. Oh, it's pinky out in Brooklyn while he clips his coupons. I think coupon comes from your parents. Pon-made, do you have any clipped coupons? You know what I mean? It's like coupon, though. that's different Coupons. Also, if you're cooking coupons. Like, you know, you're not trying to show your wealth. Coupon. All right, so here we go. I don't know, look, there's nothing wrong with saving money. How do you think rich people get rich? Yeah. Oh, that's yeah. Yeah. All right. Anyway, making the chef's espresso martini. I make it with tequila, along with the jalapeno stuff from Liquid Intelligence. I can't keep it in stock because whenever someone comes over, hear smell this results in whole bottle magically disappearing, I do like tequila with the with the jalapeno. ISI, I assume, which is the way I do it. This recipe has you, this is the chef's steps recipe, I guess. Has you milk washed the coffee booze. I've tried it with a few different milks and have had very different results. Cheap ultra high temperature milk makes small but distinct curds. You like that phrase? Smile. Regular, whatever else someone gets from the supermarket, makes bigger, still distinct curds. Um, A 2 milk, what's A 2 milk? Don't know. We should look that up. Jack, look it up. A 2 milk? A 2 milk makes one giant monster curd that looks like it might become sentient.
+
+[14:04] I like a sentient. Just a company. Oh, uh, the yield is pretty flat for the 1st 2 types of milk, but the A 2 donated a bunch of extra
+
+[14:11] liquid, hue, hue. What's actually happening in milk washing. How much booze is left in the Kurds and how much weight ends up in the final product? Thanks, Ben. Oh, here's another call out for the transcripts. PS, one of the main benefits of trans gifts would be a way to make a full list of all the things that you and Dave hate. Jack, has there already been anything that you hate? I haven't really gone. I feel like here and there. What do you hate? What do I hate? I'll have to get back to you on that. Like, like, like foods or just like things in general? Well, I mean, you can start with food. I just said espresso. hate that. There you go. All right. You got to start keeping a list of jackets. Okay, back to your question. It's interesting. I mean, obviously, what's going on here is the level of pasteurization is affecting the protein somewhat, and
+
+[14:58] therefore, the, the, the clotting, uh, strength, because this, I don't know
+
+[15:04] 100%, like what the actual reactions are. We should talk to a cheese person. I one time did a bunch of research on the effective pasteurization on
+
+[15:13] cheesemaking and all of the cheesemaking blogs. Uh, talk about the differences between, um, uh, the different pasteurization levels of milk and the, the Kurds, but I can't, I forgot to look it up again before I came in today and I can't remember the exact uh, right uh, spiel on
+
+[15:31] it, but what's technically happening in milk washing in general is this.
+
+[15:35] You are using the casing to mop up the polyphenols and other weird things that are kind of either bittering or astringent in whatever you're doing, coffee, tea, whatever. Then you precipitate out, you curd, you make it curd. So in the case of coffee, a lot of times it'll curd on its own because coffee is a acidic. B, it's in alcohol, which destabilizes the proteins, and C, it's got a lot of things that can bind with
+
+[16:08] destabilize the protein, the casing myself. So, coffee often will clot on its own. Um, And usually, uh, things that clot faster for me, uh, on their own like that make little small things that you didn't have to sweep into kind of larger curds, but whatever, that's just my personal experience.
+
+[16:26] So that's what's happening with milk washing. Now, presuming that you get your, you know, the same amount of yield out, you should get almost all of the way out. It is true that I've had recently with milk washing where I've reheated in the presence of acid. a lot of whey precipitation, almost like making a ricotta, but that's only if the acidity level gets pretty high and it's still warm when you do it, which I assume you're not doing here.
+
+[16:51] So the there shouldn't be that much of an effect on the way because you're not precipitating the way out with the technique in milk
+
+[17:00] washing. However, uh, if you did, I'm sure it would affect, um, I'm sure it would affect it greatly
+
+[17:06] because uh, heat really affects whey proteins quite a bit. Anyway, what do you think? Good. She just says that's, oh, shut up. That's what it is. Okay, Chris wrote in about China and chocolate. Let's hold that. We got a caller. Oh, color, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how are you? Alvin Schultz from Houston, Texas. Hey, all right, what's up? How's how's Texas? Yeah, where do you guys come down and shoot? Anyway, I got a I got an update for you on an eggnog question that I wrote in about a year ago and a question about Nick
+
+[17:37] Stamatics. Okay. Hey, hey, hey, stay on because I'm going to, Jose, Alvin Jose. Stay on afterwards because I have an eggnog question that came in and I'll read it and since you have some aging eggnog experience, we can talk about it together for a little bit, all right?
+
+[17:51] Okay, cool. You want me to ask the nixomatic question then? Yeah, go Nixtomatic. Nixomatic. So in Mexico City, where do you buy it? Ooh, uh, man, I wish I could remember where it was, like, like, are you going on your own or do you have like a contact down there? I'll probably be going on my own. I know some people down there, but I don't know if any of the people I know are going to know where to buy an
+
+[18:14] extematic. I forget the name of the neighbor. It was within walking distance of uh, the Almeda, and it was like between there and um, the, the market that's right near uh, Almeda. So it wasn't all the way down by Merced. And there was like a little cooking district there, cooking equipment district.
+
+[18:35] And it like, that's, you know, all the shops. So if you see any cooking district, like on the map in Mexico City that's within, like, you know, like a mile or a mile and a half of like the Almeda area, that's where I went and you just walk around the shops and a bunch of different people have them.
+
+[18:51] And so it's just a matter of haggling on the price. And they run about 250 or so? That's my memory. Yeah. I mean, I bought it. Yeah, in my head, whenever I really want a piece of equipment, I fudge the conversions in my head to make it seem like it's cheaper for
+
+[19:06] me. You know what I mean? That's just like a mental. Yeah. So, like, what else would I get when I was down there? I got that. But it's a lot to carry. Obviously, like, you know, I wish if I had infinite strength and money to bring stuff
+
+[19:20] back. I bring back a matate, a real one, just for the heck of it, just because I would like to have one, but I would never really use a matate, to be honest, because if you have the
+
+[19:29] nixtomatic, then you could just get a wet grinder to do the rest of this stuff that's not like nixtomatic friendly. Like between the 2 of them, you can grind pretty much anything wet. You know what I mean? You're getting good puff off of your off of your muff. for tortillas out of the mixed thematic. Getting good what? Oh, your tortillas are puffing consistently. No, like they're getting better and better on that, right? But that's really a function of grind. Like the commercial grinders are like so big and it grinds so fine. The coarser your masa, like the less you're going to guarantee you're going to get a puff out of it. Now, you know, I know that, um, you know, some people prefer the, some people prefer that, like, really light, really fine grind,
+
+[20:19] like tortilla, uh, you know, masa for tortillas, and some people actually don't mind if they're, if they're masa for their tortillas is a little bit, uh, you know, a little bit coarser, so you could still see, like,
+
+[20:31] like, a little bit of, um, speckling in it. What about you, Stas? do you feel? My mouths are being speckled. You like a speckled? I don't know She doesn't care. I like speckling for tostados. Yeah, and obviously... Yeah, but yeah, right. Like, because they look better. Yeah. But I get your point. But my thing is, is that every time I use the nixtomatic, it gets better. So, you know, that's that's where I'll go there. So like the first, you know, the 1st like 3 or 4 batches you make,
+
+[21:01] you, they will not puff, the straight up, I'm telling you, they will not puff. Um, you know, once you get past that, you know, like the more you use it, the more the kind of puff rate goes up. But you're not going to get like the out of the box performance with that thing that you would get with like a real stone grinder or like, you know, the ones that are like a 1000
+
+[21:19] bucks. Like, I forget what model, like Alex Dupak got up here, or a couple other people have, you know, bought up here, but there's a... Yeah, the ones that Cosme, right?
+
+[21:29] Yeah, like, you know, they're like mid-sized stone wheel grinders, but, you know, that's like the next level of horsepower motor up and like 3 levels up in price.
+
+[21:38] Like, you can't make an excuse to buy that and have it unless you're, unless you're using it pro. You know what I mean? Yeah, you can't place the conversion on that one, right? So I have a process that I'm getting pretty consistent pop on. So I'm grinding by hand with a corona. Uh, as, as fine as it'll grind, and I've, I've got probably 2 or 3 dozen batches through my corona right now, and then I'm taking that grind and putting it in the
+
+[22:01] vitamic dry grain container. The only thing is, and I'm grinding the heck out of it in the Vitamix. Right. The only thing is every time I do it, I feel like I'm going to blow the fuse and then my vitamins be out of commission for a couple hours, but
+
+[22:14] unfortunately I have two. So, uh, so if I blow, you know, it's the 2nd one that gets, that gets really nervous, but, but, uh, my, my tortilla's been popping pretty consistently. Well, let me tell you, if you're using the Corona, I can't believe that you're still alive. I hate using that thing so much. My right arm is really huge. I imagine. I imagine that, like, you know, you're like, uh, you know, like, yeah, your one arm is like a stick and the other one is like a, like, you know, like somebody else's leg, like John Cena's arm, because I hate the
+
+[22:41] corona. Remember when we had long stars and I insulted his manhood and we made him grind all of that masa that night? Nightmare. Corona, oh, Corona is such a nightmare. You're going to love the Nixtomatic, brother. If you're using the corona, you're going to love the Knicks domatic. Just give it some grinding time. All right, now eggnog. eggnog. What do you got? You want me? I'll say the question I got, and then you can tell me about it. All right. You know, May May Kitchen friends in the show, Boston. They wrote in, here's what they said. I hope you guys are well. We made eggnog recently using 4 quarts of cream. One quart of El Dorado spiced rum, one quart of one to one simple, and 24 eggs. Holy crap that's rich. That's that's freaking rich. The eggs were separated. whites were whipped with cream, simple in booze, and then combined with yolks.
+
+[23:29] After 2 weeks, the nog mellowed, no change after 4 weeks, after 8 weeks,
+
+[23:33] and it turned into marshmallows, not. See video. I didn't get to see the video, but I believe you. Still tasted fine. How? What? Should we try to turn it into something weird and or delicious? is actually already weird, but not necessarily delicious. Thanks to folks at Meime. I think it's just, you think the water contest is all that fat? Like, what do you think's going on, Almond? I think, I think the, uh, the egg wives? I would save that, I would mix everything but the egg whites that just fold back in egg whites, uh, when you're ready to drink it and not age it with the, uh, the whites on it. So you think the whites are setting? You think it's like a low, like a low water thing and the whites are somehow setting over time,
+
+[24:09] like alcohol denaturation? I think so. So what I was going to call in with my update is I made a batch of Roman's eggnog and also George Washington's eggnog at the very beginning of
+
+[24:20] 2015 and I drank it over this past holiday season. I drank I tasted both. Romans doesn't really change much of the. I think I did the math and that's what I called it for a year ago, and I think the math on rule Vince came out to about 22%. Uh, Washington was about 12.5, 11.5, 12, 12.5 . And Washington was real interesting. It got sour, but not unpleasant at all. It had like these, uh, notes of blue cheese on the, on the nose, but then like almost like a, uh, tangy goat cheese, uh, on the palate,
+
+[24:52] so I call it almost like an eggnog sour. Both were pleasant and both were aged at room temperature for the better part of a year. You're not really selling me on the blue cheese eggnog. It's like you got to come up. smells funkier than it tastes, but it wasn't unpleasant at all. I recommend, uh, you put it in a tin and take the, take the stuff out of it. Just, you know, just shake it up real good to, to, to, to dilute it back down and
+
+[25:17] it's, it's pretty tasty. Yeah. So Nick Bennett did like a three-year-old eggnog, but I didn't get to taste it. Our former bar captain and now the guy at Porsche Stas, we tasted what, three-year-old? What do we think? Did we taste it? Or did we decide it smelled like poison? I think we decided it smelled like poison. don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to get to a vertical. So I made another batch of ruling, uh, this year and I'm I'm working, I'm, I want to, they inspired, uh, my batches, so I'm going to try to get the five-year vertical. Right. And so, so your your advice to May May is to hold the white back. I would hold the wife back. Um, I don't, I, I don't know what, what recipe she's using, but, uh, but I, what's Romans without the wife is, is, uh, is just fine after a
+
+[25:57] year. It tastes boozy and nice. No funk at all. And the real question is gets funky. What are we going to do with this one that's already funky? Mix it into some sort of baked good? What are we going to do? I Yeah. All right. All right, very good. So you're going to keep track of your test and you're going to give us a call back and let us know how your vertical goes. Well, every year we'll come back as long as we keep doing the show. Every year, you come back and tell us how you're doing with
+
+[26:24] the nog. Yeah, sound good. All right, brother. All right, see you. I have a good one. All right, we got 2 more callers on the line. So next caller. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Matt for Mystic calling back about haggis. How was the haggis? It was amazing, man. Oh great. Yeah, it worked it worked like a charm, but it stunk the high heavens. The bung stinks. The bung stinks. That's your next album. The bung stinks. Yeah exactly. Well, did you do any like pre-soaking or like washing or scrubbing? I, yeah, I, so I soaked it for 24 hours beforehand, uh, and it didn't really, didn't really help. My kitchen. Uh, you know, it's still, there's still a faint aroma of bung every time I fire up the stove. Wow. I think next year I'll do it off site. That's, that's the follow-up album. Faint aroma of bung. Yeah, yeah. Well, we can get a trilogy out of it if we're careful. Well, I wish, you know, we were here for Johnny, which I wish Johnny. I wish this was last week when Johnny was here because I'm sure he's dealt with that kind of an issue before. There's got to be some sort of like pre-poach in milk that will help out. The thing is, you just don't want to have it shrink up too much and everything before you stuff it. That's the real issue, right? Yeah, that's what I would be afraid because, like, once you, once you get it in the, the hot liquid, it really uh, uses up nicely. Yeah, right. the whole point. Yeah, how could you, just a bunch of changes. It didn't impart any off flavor, honestly? Like, once, like, but during the, like the 1st like hour or so of the, of the boiling of it, it was like really gross. But like poopy or like tripe slaughterhouse smell? Uh, yeah, like sort of the combination. It's sort of like sort of like a halitosis uh note. Right. and some, you know, and some barnyard barnyard funk. But the oats worked, the oats came out great, so it was like totally permeable. And I did add a little bit more broth to the mixture, uh, than I normally do, uh, with, you know, with
+
+[28:28] the lamb, meat, et cetera. But it came out great. Nice. How are the neeps and tatties? Oh, great. You know, we just, uh, we just, we must do like £5 beach at least,
+
+[28:39] and uh, and they go look crazy too, so. Awesome. Awesome, awesome. Yeah, there was very little haggis left over, which is always a good sign of success. Do you like, hey, Jack, can people post pictures to our thing? Someone could put the picture on? If they send it to me. Yeah, send a picture. put it up on the thing of your haggis. I want see it. All right, cool. I will. Yeah. I will is it, can I tag you on Instagram with it? Yeah. It looks like it looks like the sandworm from Dune. Oh nice. That sounds cool. Those creep the hell out of me. Yeah. You know what freaked me out in Dune? That dude who, like, would always, like, have people's hearts plugged and then what would he do? drink their blood or something so gross. Remember that dude? Remember that dude, the dude who was on that chair that would float around and he had those people and he would unplug their hearts? Is that what would happen on Dune? I don't, it's not ringing a bell. Baron Harkonan? Look, it's been a 1000000000 years since I've seen Dune. I saw it when I was too young and it was, it was alternately boring and horrifying. But I was a kid when I saw it. So I don't know. I never read it. I got another caller when you were ready. But listen, send that stuff in. I'm glad it worked out Yeah, I will All right, cool. awesome. All right, cool. Call her. on the air. Hey, this is Scooter in Montana. How you doing? I got a, I cannot do that. I have a question about pressure canning. I'm in pressure, pressure canning stoop, um, and everything that I've read says you can't have hand pressure can, anything that's been pre-thickened with
+
+[30:04] flour, and you can't do noodles. Uh, so I'm wondering, why that's the case, and uh, if so, how do, how do they get those sort of
+
+[30:13] deliberately overcooked noodles in, in your, you know, can of candles, pick a noodle? Huh, that's a good question. Um, presumably what's happening is, is you're taking the, um, starch well, uh,
+
+[30:27] because you know, like you cook starch, it absorbs stuff. There's a maximum thickness, right? And then after you reach that maximum thickness, then you get viscosity
+
+[30:36] breakdown as you totally disintegrate the kind of starch, right? And so that's why, you know, if you look at a starch thing. That's what'll happen. So presumably they're saying that it'll reduce the thickening. Nothing terrible is going to happen. Have you tried it? No, I have not tried it yet. I mean, I would obviously, you know, I'm sure they like, they must just get the water balance exactly right, throw the pasta in, and then have
+
+[31:01] it like all absorb and come out, you know, because come out like right where they want it. You know what I'm saying? Like the same way that like beans are so highly tweaked out that, you know, they know exactly how long they want their pre-soak. They know they know exactly everything. You know what I mean? And so that they, they put them in the, and they know they know the pH of their water. They know the salt content. They know everything. You know what I mean? And so they load them into those cans and they come out perfect almost every single time. So there's got to be some trick with with the pastas. But the pastas are pretty, they're pretty, you mean soft. I mean, like, I haven't had a spaghetti in a long time, but they're pretty soft. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, they're they're they're really soft and they're not necessarily ideal, but for some reason, I sort of love them. Yeah, you know, also, what if you're stuck only with pastas? Stas, what's the shape of pasta that's shaped like a rice
+
+[31:55] grains real thick? Wait, Orzo or something? Yeah, yeah. Like something like that, I think, would hold up a lot better. Or like, what's the one that's like a really thick square that's like, you
+
+[32:05] know what I'm talking about? They're like thick squares and they're meant for soups, but they're like, they're like pasta little bricklets. Those things would hold up. I think things that, I think thicker pastas are gonna,
+
+[32:17] like, obviously stand up because they'll, it's gonna take longer for the inside to turn to complete mush. The outside will turn to complete mush. As for thickening, like thickened mixes with flour, I'm sure it's just a matter of they won't be as thick when it comes out. You're not going to get poisoned. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, some of the things that I've read have said that it does increase the botulism risk because it like slows the heating through the jar. Oh good point. Yeah. That's interesting. But that's okay. don't know. is there any data? In other words, like the people who say that, did they say this? In 1965, a family of full cooked soup with starch in it and they died. You know what I mean? Because that's like, that's what you need to say because the fact of the matter is, there's no, there's nothing in Canning that says, please measure the viscosity of your ingredients, right?
+
+[33:14] I could take... I could take an entire brick of pork, slam it into a
+
+[33:19] can and like, and like follow the freaking canning procedures and I'm okay. You know what I'm saying? So like, off the top of my head, I just don't believe, I don't believe it. But, I mean, I see what they're saying that you're inhibiting the convective forces that's going on,
+
+[33:37] but, like, in the absence of some data where someone followed good canning procedure,
+
+[33:44] right? And maybe you have to increase the time, I mean, it's been a long time since I've looked at canning procedures, but like maybe for something that's not a lot of liquid, you have different
+
+[33:51] thing. But, uh, I have to say I doubt it. from a safety standpoint. Okay. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking, and I'll... know how it turns out. Yeah. All right, cool. Let us know what happens. Pick the line. All right. should we go to a break? No, no, let's, let's, we're gonna, this is the home stretch here. Oh yeah? Yeah. We're ripping through. Who the sponsor? Ripping through. Kane, Vineyard, and Winery. I was going to put an ad in later, but I will say that Chris from Kane is a really awesome dude. Great nap the winery. Yeah. A lot of interesting stuff. I do have another caller if we want to take that. Yeah, sure. Call her. on the air. You know what? hung up as soon as I picked up. Never mind. Keep them moving. Man. Maybe they were, yeah, too bad. Sorry, caller. So you've had the wine? It's good. It is, yeah. I had his cuvet. Do you know who's never had the wine? You? Yeah, Nastasia, have you had the wine? Where's the wine? Ooh, Erica's in here and she visited the winery. Stas, have you visited the winery? Nope. I'll tell you something, here's something, Estasia, Nastasia does not hate. Wine? Visiting wineries? Drinking wine? drinking wine. I don't know. Do you like visiting wineries or you just want the wine? Are you like my stepfather? He doesn't care about, kids want to talk about fishing? You just want us to fish. Doesn't care, doesn't want to talk about wine, cigars. You? Me? I mean, wineries can be pretty, but like, yeah, I like
+
+[35:13] the drinking the one. What are your favorite wines? I don't really like being in Napa because it's hot as hell. Like, well, obviously, style. I really don't know enough. Styles has got to be like nebula. No, style, style. champagne. All right, see? Love that. Love that. So if you're at a restaurant and you open the wine list, like where did the 2 of you go? No, I mean, yeah, what am I eating? don't know. A lot depends on what I'm eating. It wasn't a fully formed question. It says, like, what's the temperature outside and what am I eating? And how much money does the person who's buying dinner for me has? Right. Like, so if the person if the person buying dinner has a non-finite amount of money, I
+
+[35:51] I start out the meal with a glass of vintage champagne because duh. money. No, but like, and then like, like, let's say we're Italian. I like, I like to have, if you can call ahead and the person has infinite money, they open a bottle of Amaroni, like a really nice old Amaroni, let it air out for you. wouldn't that be pleasant? I'm a fan of Ammo. You know, I'm a very simple, like, I
+
+[36:17] don't, I'm not saying, you know, I'm not like out there on a limb. Like, I like stuff that everyone likes. I like Barolos. I like Amaroni. I like champagne. I like, you know, I, hey, people, like, I don't want to have a big American wine all the time, but I enjoy that, like, you know, 90s
+
+[36:33] style big, big butt, like U.S. infandel. Like, I love that stuff. You know what I mean? I like everything. I like everything if it's good. What about you, Stas? If it's good, I like it. Okay. Uh, ahem. Jared wrote in about orange water, orange flower water. I've never thought about orange flower water. Here's what he says. Lately, I've been enjoying the addition of orange blossom water to my daily tea so much that I've been running through it at about a cup per day, a cup of orange flower
+
+[37:03] water. It's a lot of orange flowers. That's a lot of freaking orange flowers, a lot. It's become rather costly habit. I'm wondering if there's a more cost-effective way to simulate the pleasant aroma in my beverages, maybe through the use of essential
+
+[37:16] oils with that work. As far as I know, oil and water don't play well together. So I'm hoping it provide a way to emulsify the 2 that won't drastically change the viscosity of the water.
+
+[37:26] For dietary reasons, I'd rather not use alcohol or sugar-like substances. Fats and acids are okay. Jared and Vancouver. Well, you know, gum Arabic is what you want to use. You typically, I don't know why, but in soda formulations, when people are using gum Arabic,
+
+[37:43] they'll, 1st you put the gum Arabic into water, and they literally, they always, like, literally,
+
+[37:48] say add a drop of alcohol, you know, or like a couple
+
+[37:52] drops. And I don't know why. I don't really know why, to be honest. The reason you use gum Arabic is because the it dilutes well, the suspension dilutes well. So then that's how you typically emulsify oils like oil, like if you're doing a cola, like cinnamon oil or, you know, citrus oils. And you can look up on Art of the Drink, Darcy O'Neill on Art of the Drink, it's hard to search for, but you can find it. has something on putting essential oils for sodas with gum
+
+[38:21] Arabic. And if you look up that article, that blog article, and the art of the drink, you can see the basic procedure for suspending oils into
+
+[38:30] emulsions. But I don't know that orange flour, essential oil, because I haven't even seen that. I've seen orange essential, essential oil. Do they make the essential oil of the flour too? I don't know. But that's the way to do it. So you should write in and tell us what's going on. Okay. i.e. tell us if it works. Um, Man, we got a lot to get to. Okay. And you got 5 minutes. Okay, Chris wrote in. Thanks again for the show. wrote into, hey, Anastasia, Dave and Jack. I'd love to hear thoughts and lessons on food in China, as well as developing cooking products in China,
+
+[39:05] I.E. what it's like to develop cooking products in China, style, what's it like? Not. Hard, hard. I mean, look, if we're like, I'll let you know when the next product is ready to come out exactly how hard it is,
+
+[39:19] but it's challenging in ways that I didn't expect it to be challenging.
+
+[39:26] It's simpler in ways that I thought it was going to be more challenging, but it's very challenging in ways that I didn't
+
+[39:32] expect in terms of, yeah it's just really hard. But, you know, again, I don't know. I probably shouldn't go too much into depth on that, right? Stas is shaking her head. She's giving me the shut up shake of her head. But on food, I mean, I was, you know, I was mainly in
+
+[39:52] Shenzhen. Shenzhen's interesting because people from all over, you know, China come to
+
+[39:57] Zen to work. Um, but the local uh, food, you know, is, you know, from that kind of Canton area. So it's very not spicy. Um, very nice. Is that even English? It's not spicy. Uh, I had a lot of steamed uh, seafood. And yes, they really freaking like crunchy just killed fish there, which is totally antithetical to like the way we normally eat fish.
+
+[40:25] I had like a whole bunch of steamed, you know, different species of carp
+
+[40:32] that were all extremely crunchy. But love the fresh, they love the fresh killed. I mean, it's not necessarily my cup of tea, but you know, there you have it. The, um, did I talk about the manta shrimp here? I did, right? Yeah. Anyway. So, like, I should think more. I should try to condense in my mind more of the lessons, I learned on food there so I can come back. But anyway, here's another one. I've recently from you. I've recently started doing dark chocolate in a wet grinder. See, I told you wet grinders are going to come back with nibs and sugar. I'd love to hear about your tips, tricks and riffs on chocolate making. Well, don't make ketchup flavored chocolate, which is what I started with because nobody, I was the only guy that liked to catch a flavored chocolate, right? You hated it? did not like it. It was better than the mustard chocolate. Yeah. So the whole point, the reason I started in the wet grinding thing was because I wanted to create the texture of chocolate, which is mainly a phenomenon of cocoa
+
+[41:32] butter completely surrounding very, very fine solids particles in the absence of liquid, right? That's what it is. And so, like, I was trying to get different powders, uh, very, very fine powders, and I was pre-blitzing those things and putting in the cocoa butter, adjusting the sugar, adding some less
+
+[41:49] thin, and hoping that it could turn into something that had that, uh, texture. But it's very hard because nothing can have kind of water in it, you know, nightmare that way. When we were making actual chocolate, you know, I frankly learned from reading the Chocolate Alchemy website, which is, I think, the 1st website on making your own chocolate,
+
+[42:08] at least the 1st one that I had ever seen. Um, so, yeah, there you have it. And we would put the nibs through a champion grinder 1st to get them pre-ground, which worked very well. And then we would just, uh, you know, we would use, uh, I, do we use confectioner sugar or what kind of sugar do we use? Do we not care? I don't remember. Or did we blitz it? I don't remember. I probably knowing me, I like tweak everything, so I probably use something fine. I don't know. And then just let it run, but we'd have to let it run a long time. The question is like opening and shutting the lid, you have to keep it open so liquids don't condense because it warms up, but then you lose aroma. So it's all back and forth. But we would grind for days to get the texture right because, you know, the bigger grinders can do it quickly and then you conch for however long you
+
+[42:53] want. we, you know, we couldn't do that. So it was like a very long melange thing. It was days, several days, and you have to keep tasting it. Anyway, uh, Aaron wrote in. We're basically at the end here. Oh, Aaron, I've totally solved your margarita problem. We'll get to it next week. I'll give you a hint. Just increase the simple syrup a little bit, increase the lime. You need to double your lime and multiply your simple syrup by
+
+[43:17] another or add another half ounce of simple syrup, but double your lime and your alcohol number should come down. You can add the lime earlier, and get it going, and you should be better, but I can go into it in more detail next time. Liza wrote in about the gaps diet, and we still haven't gotten to the Frigging Thai
+
+[43:33] basil question, presumably the type is. Oh, we will next time, I promise, on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[43:49] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program was brought to you by Consider Bardwell Farm in Vermont, a producer of award-winning handmade cheese from goat and cow
+
+[0:06] milk for more information, visit considerbardwellfarm.com.
+
+[0:16] Here, coast owner, you get just coming to your live! We're still playing the music. It's all right on Heritage Radio Network in Roberta's Pizzeria, where in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Hello. We got Jack, Jackie Molecules is sick today, like legitimately sick, stomach bug, not
+
+[0:41] like hungover, right? And so today we have for the 1st time in the booth. Dave, we're going to call him Dave Idd to keep him separately from me being Dave. Hey, David. How's it going Going all right. If I'm Dave Id, does that make you Dave Ego? Oh. Like that. You know what the thing is? The thing about the ego and the id is that if you say someone has an ego, typically it means it's bad, but in the context of
+
+[1:05] id, the ego is actually a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. It's the one time it's good to be ego. Got to have got to have both. You can't have the yin without the yang. that you're it all id. Me? That's since we're staying with psychological references here. That's what we like to call a projection. A projection. Don't pull out psychological terms on someone that grew up with a shrink. You know what I'm saying? My stepfather's a shrink, so... No, anyway, like I say, projection. She, look, Jordan Rothman, friend of the show, friend in general, is just upset because I'm the only person that has been like, what are you doing?
+
+[1:46] What's wrong with you? When she was shaking cocktails. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And we have very, very happy. special guest, not Peter Kim. Better than Peter Kim. Better than Peter Cam. We have Dax Arnold. Dax Arnold. You might know him from. His name is the name of our bar. But he is, in fact, my son. So if you have any questions, to ask my son, because there's no school today. Bye. I don't know, president. Winter break. Midwinter. Yeah, midwinter break. So if you have any questions for Nastasia for myself or for Dax, call them in two. 718-497-2128. 718-4972128. Uh, you know what? Do anything good over the weekends, does? I saw hockey games. Oh, really? What kind of hot? His sister's friend plays for the Yale club team. The Bulldogs? Yeah. Well, but not the real club. Oh, what do you mean? They're not, they don't play in the, in the large, where do they play? somewhere in Long Island. How does he Yale? How does a group of Yale he's playing Long Island? Do they have to take a ferry across the... Okay, people, for those of you that don't know the geography involved here. Check this out. Yale is in Connecticut in a town called New Haven, all right? Now, right next to New Haven is a body of water called the Long Island Sound. Now Long Island comes by its name, honestly. It's like 2 hours long, 3 hours long to drive it, right? It's a long freaking island. It's like one of the longer islands attached to the United States of America, right? Long. Anyhoo, so in order to get, in order to play hockey, bear in mind, at Yale University, they have a very large, very famous ice hockey
+
+[3:33] rink known as... Reserved? They don't play 100% of the time. Anyway, so you have to drive from New Haven. all the way down to New York City, which, you know, what is that? an hour and a half, hour, 45 minutes, then fight your way through New York City traffic. actually going, you're doing a V. Yeah, yeah. And you have to drive all the way back up to New Haven on the other side of the
+
+[3:56] sound and you could literally see across the sound there. Nightmare. Nightmare. But I love hockey. was my 1st game. Yeah? It was awesome. Your sister plays or your sister's buddy plays? I have sister's buddy plays. You went all the way out to Long Island for your sister's buddy? Did they win? Yeah. They did. Yeah, they did. Have you ever seen a game? Have you seen a game? Yeah. Do you like it? All the fighting? Well, it wasn't too much fighting, I saw. Blood on the ice? No blood on the ice, but lots of pounding, just pounding. Like fish pounding? Like slamming guys against the wall. Did anyone throw the gloves off and throw a punch? Okay, but no blood? No blood. Well, they still had their helmets on. Oh, yeah, I see. I see. Well, it's nice to see that even in the Ivy leagues, people still resort to... Well, there was Yale versus Suffolk County. So who started the fight? Yes. Staying
+
+[4:54] true, they're stereotypes. Well, so Suffolk County. So it was an away game. They went to Long Island because it's an away game in Long Island. No, the championships were in... Oh, this is the championship. Champion chip game. Nice. Did you cook any food over the weekend? Uh, no. No. No? I didn't. Did you? Yeah. So it was you know, it was ridiculously cold here. It wasn't that cold. It was cold on Saturday night. It was cold, but it wasn't like Mayor de Blasio, the mayor of our fine city of New York. He's like, don't go outside if you don't need, he doesn't talk like that. Don't go outside if you don't need to. It's so cold. You breathe in your nose, your nose is gonna crack off. Don't do it. We were up like, you know, we were going outside. Dax was freaking sledding in that weather. On Saturday night? Yeah. Throwing tomahawk stacks now, you know, thanks to you, Nastasia, has throwing
+
+[5:43] tomahawks. I have to say he's pretty good at it. Really? Yeah, it's fun. Nice. What do you throw them at? Dead trees? Anyways, so it was too cold to cook outside. So we did a, uh, we, we have a, that wood burning stove, but you can take the top off the wood burning stove and
+
+[5:59] cooking it. So we just did burgers inside the wood burning stove. It was your anniversary too. Well, it was Valentine's Day, which is the anniversary of me going out with my wife 24 years, 24 years. And I also, also, uh, we got a new Cuisinard pressure cooker and I hacked it. I hacked it to get back up to the pressure. I tested it, did some sweet, sweet, hamming eggs. Maybe I'll post out the picture of that. For those of you that don't know, the Cuisinard pressure cooker is awesome for a bunch of reasons because you don't have to use a burner. It like, once it's done timing. It like automatically turns itself off into keep warm. You can, you know, you don't have to adjust temperatures all the time because it just goes to the temperature you
+
+[6:39] want. I mean, really, it's nice to use, except for the fact that it's not set up to go to 15
+
+[6:46] PSI, and I want everything. Oh, Booker, my other son is just telling me he's going to use the bathroom. He literally he walked in, looked in some lady's face at the restaurant and screamed through the window. Bathroom,
+
+[6:59] I started pointing. The lady's like, I don't need to know if you're going to the bathroom or not. She's like, totally, this lady is totally confused. She's also this lady. it's 1st of all, how it's 50 It's 55 degrees in Brooklyn today, all right? 55 degrees here in the studio in Brooklyn. This lady is wearing her like her knockoff freaking Canada goose coat. I think she can hear you. Well, she's sitting? No, whatever. eyes aren't moving. That means she's listening? Hey, we have a color on the line, do you guys want to take? All right, cool. hold on one minute. So the pressure cooker. All you need to do is add one resistor to it. It's very simple. Then it gets up to 15 PSI and it's a pretty genius thing. You can get it for under 100 bucks. Okay, call her, you're on the air. No caller. Wow, what a new voice. Yeah, nice. Yeah, well, you know, got to save it, got to save it up. Not like Phil Bravo, other friend of the show who just always has the deep voice. We have to save up to use it. What's up? Um, I'm having some trouble hearing you there. Okay, maybe it's better now. Uh, I'm calling about uh, solid gun dharma, the uh, stretchy ice cream. Very good. Um, I read all the uh, the posts on blog. about it and I want to make it. I haven't made it yet, but I was kind of just wondering how things kind of turned out in the end there, because it seems like, um, you originally tried to make it like, uh, Ken
+
+[8:17] Kershbaum and Ariel Johnson did with, uh, what is it, the Conjac? And then that didn't work out so well, and then you use potato ultimately, right? Well, okay, so there's a bunch of different, there a bunch of different ways to get that that texture. So the reason, um, and I forget, I think it's a glucomannin, right? So, the, the, uh, Don Dharma, the, the orchid, like, root powder is uh, a glucoman and conjac. It's either gluc or galacto. think it's gluco. Conjac is a similar glucaman. And so I think that they did that and one other, um, one other thing that they added to it. And they were able to get something that is the texture of uh, select on dharma. Now, back when I did all those posts. I had not yet been to Turkey. I have now since been to Turkey. So I've had I've had the real thing. So I have a better kind of a perspective on it. They say their conjac thing works. I don't know whether it was my conjak or what, but I'm sure that their specifications work. The potato makes a similar texture. However, it's pretty finicky. You have to use, like, you know, regular standard US potatoes, they have to be cooked and cooled the way that it said, and then it doesn't last for a long
+
+[9:31] time. In other words, the stretchiness, you can't save it for a while. And in fact, I noticed I brought some of the celept on derma, the real stuff back from Turkey in a dry ice
+
+[9:41] thing, and it, in fact, does not keep it stretching this either. You have to rebeat it right before you eat it to get the kind of stretchiness back. But, um, the, the recipe that I actually use when I really want that texture is the
+
+[9:54] geland gum plus guargum recipe that is also on the blog. And you don't have to do, like, make it tea flavored or any of that other stuff like I did on the blog, but that that
+
+[10:05] gelann guar is pretty sweet, and you can light that stuff on fire, which is always nice. The potato, the potato is a little more finicky. I tried to make it once in South America using like a local potato variety that was more of like it wasn't as fluffy as like, you know, like a russet
+
+[10:25] Burbank and it did not work. And then, um, Yeah, and plus even here with the potatoes that I know work. I'm pretty sure I use Russet and not UCons, but we'll have to go back and look at the post, but then it's finicky in terms of
+
+[10:39] time. It's a make with liquid nitrogen and eat, not spin an ice cream. By the way, none of these things are really ice cream machine friendly because
+
+[10:46] they, they're stiff. You know what I mean? Like, they're really, the ones that we did were better with, um, um, they're better with, uh, my brain's fried
+
+[10:55] stuff, better with liquid nitrogen. Or if you have a real ice cream machine, draw it soft because it's as it starts firming up that it
+
+[11:03] gets really, really stiff and chewy. So you could probably take it to kind of a soft serve thing and then kind of harden it and beat the crap out of it. But it's, uh, yeah, those are my suggestions. That's what I ended up staying on. But Kent and Ariel swear on the, you know, on 5 stacks of Bibles that the conjac is going to give you the right texture. I only tried it once or twice to be fair. So that's not really fair to the recipe. and I didn't follow theirs. I just made a conjak-based ice cream. So I didn't follow their exact specs. So, like, I'm not going to say anything one way or other, but they're good smart people. So if they say the recipe weren't, I'm sure it did. Okay, so you're saying that Jalan plus Guar recipe should yield pretty good results, and it won't have the issues with the starch, um, what is it,
+
+[11:52] uh, retrogradation that the potato does. Right, exactly. Well, the thing with the starch is it's, it's, you need some exact amount of retrogradation, I think, to get it right, but it's just, it's real finicky.
+
+[12:02] The Gelang Guar is like bonehead simple. It always works, and those two, but make sure you get the flavor free guire. There's a couple places that have flavor free guire. I think modernist pantry sells a flavor free guire. And by the way, they texted me Monter's pantry. They have novo shaped back. So all of you guys that want to use pectin methylesterase to make vegetables firmer without having to do, you know, use calcium hydroxide or any of those nasty stuff. It's back online there. I was supposed to mention that. If I want to go with the contract, Is that the same stuff? You get us a Japanese market or do I have to go through a source where I might get
+
+[12:37] a get a little bit more of a pure product. I don't know. That's the thing, man. I think I use the stuff that you just get. I mean, the stuff, like, so there's the stuff that comes in the kind of like, that's like a solid that you have to repulverize. And I think that that's what I used with no luck. I'm sure Kent and Ariel used like some form of like purified powdered stuff, but
+
+[12:56] I used the stuff that you get at the market, which maybe that's why I didn't have luck. I don't know. So it's, you know, I'm not sure. If their recipe specifies a certain kind, then I would I would definitely use that. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Okay. And so one more question about, you know, just beating it right before I serve it. Um, so in in Turkey, don't they use like 2 metal sticks, I've kind of seen it. Uh, but, you know, you, so you're saying I could either try to do it in the, in the, in the
+
+[13:27] mixer, or what was the other way? Well, the mixer, remember, the mixer is going to start getting like, it depends on how you do it, right? Like, depends on what your chilling technology is, but, I mean, the best way is to is to beat the, like, if you get it hard, right? Dax, you remember when I brought this stuff home from Turkey? Oh yeah. Yeah, and do you remember the one time I served it to you? It wasn't snap, and then I pulled it out of the freezer and I started hitting you with a rolling pin? A bunch. And then it got, got, that got that cool texture, right? Yeah. So I think it's any sort of thing. If you take it in a bowl and just literally like hammer the hell out of it with a solid
+
+[14:03] pin or, you know, because the problem is, is that if you use a hunk of metal unless the metal is cold, it's gonna start melting the stuff out on
+
+[14:10] you, right? Yeah, yeah. But you can get it pretty much most of the way there with a KitchenAid. You just got to be careful that you don't, especially because I, when I, when you make ice cream at a KitchenAid, I use the, uh, the beater that has the silicone little riblets on the side and they can break when they're that much
+
+[14:27] force. But, you know, just don't don't use that much force. Okay. Oh, so maybe I'll use the rolling pen. All right, thanks, Dave. All right, tweet us on over. Let us know what happened. You got it. Bye. Celept on derma. Did you ever like any of those ice cream stuff? You don't like the texture? didn't like the tea flavor. I like the potato one you made. You like the potato one, which is weird because that's the more polarizing flavor, potato ice cream. Yeah, I don't add polarizing. We didn't like the tea flavor or even like the texture. I'm trying to get. texture. I didn't like the texture. Did you like the fact that we could light it on fire? I want you taught a class where literally, it was a hydrocollage class, which, by the way, I hate teaching. But I don't hate teaching it. It's just difficult to teach because unlike low temperature cooking. It's like there's so many different levels you have to teach to with it, right? And different people have different expectations of what they want. But, yeah, yeah, Stas is going, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Which is like, you know, she's basically calling me out
+
+[15:23] as me, me, me, me, me. But, um, we had one where we taught it where literally all anyone wanted to do is light things on fire. Like, can you light that on fire? So literally we'd had to keep the torch next to the thing and they'd be like, we would make any sort of recipe and they're like, okay, light it on fire. And we would like light it on fire to see what happened. That was actually kind of one of my favorite ones of teaching that class. Are you there for that one? Mhm. Yeah. Turns out, you can light a lot more things on fire than you thought. Where'd Booker go? Oh, Booker just wanted to use the bathroom. I invited him and Jen, by the way, my wife to come on the radio show. Yeah, but Booker was like, no. And you know, if Booker was here, if Booker was in this studio... Dad, dad, why are you on the radio? Dad. Dad. All right. Let's go through, um, let's go through some of the questions from a before. By the way, we have a question on Parmigiana. Are we gonna get Mark Ladder? Mark says he keeps calling. Why don't we call him? wouldn't that be easier? Uh, yeah. But I don't know how to tell them his number. Oh, yeah, over the air. All right, have Mark calling one more time. We're going to get a call in from Mark Ladner to answer a question from a listener, okay? All right David? All right. So, uh, we had lines... We had Liza right in last week and asked us his question, which I still don't know the answer to, but we'll talk about it anyway. Is it, what do you think of the gaps diet? G-A-PS diet, and would you ever, would you ever try it? Now, uh, The gaps diet is a diet design. I mean, I wouldn't try it. Not me personally, but that's not really the question. The question is, do I think it's efficacious or not? So it's a diet that's designed for, um, well, here's the thing. Here's my issue with it. So if you go to the gaps website. It's run by a doctor who I don't know that much about. But literally the splash page of the website is like a road, you know those road
+
+[17:23] signs like you get in the World War II movies where they point in all different directions and it's like, you know, Brussels one way and all that. It's like that, but with a host of different maladies on it, right? And so, yeah, so the maladies include dyspraxia, which is, you know, I
+
+[17:38] think like movement disorders, right? ADD, right? ADHD, which, you know, are those really the same? aren't those really kind of the same thing? Hey, we got Mark on the line whenever you guys are ready? All right, so you want to talk about gaps in a minute? I'll talk about gaps in a minute. Hey, Mark, how you doing? Hello? We got we got Mark Ladner, uh, chef of uh, Del Posto, also uh, gluten-free pasta maven of pasta flyer. What else you got? what else you got going, Mark. Everything's great, Dave. Thanks for inviting me onto team cooking issues. Yeah, night. Well, we got a question that I thought, you know, we can talk about it. you and I, Anastasia, but I'll read you the question first. This is right up your alley. This is the kind of problem that you have to think about a lot. Although actually, does he make this style of pasta? Did you even read the questions? I read to him. Okay. So, so the listeners, no, this is from Thomas. Fan of the show, but I still have an unanswered question, even though I've listened to most of the show. Sometimes I will try to make myself some buttered noodles as a quick meal, but when I add the
+
+[18:49] Parmigiano cheese, it wants to clump up on me. I cook with real parm age 2 years, if that makes a difference. I was kind of hoping to get a Mornay sauce, but as a quick pan sauce instead. Any tips, I thought maybe I could use a stabilizer to keep the cheese from
+
+[19:05] clumping and just a GOI instead of clumping any advice on what's going on here would be greatly appreciated. Now, my feeling is there's not enough liquid in the sauce he's trying to make to ever stop it from clumping because he's not
+
+[19:16] pre-mixing the Parmesan with a liquid or adding it at the end when it's not getting mixed.
+
+[19:20] But why don't you, why don't you talk about the the generalities here. It sounds like just fat, fat on fat, of course, is gonna clump. I think the 1st thing to recognize is that most often people tend to either overcook their dry pasta or undercook their fresh pasta.
+
+[19:41] Uh, especially undercooked fresh pasta has a tendency to clump up because it wants to continue to take moisture from somewhere.
+
+[19:49] Yeah, okay. Because but here's the thing. What we're honing in on here is that it's moisture, like moisture content is the main issue that this person's got wrong, right?
+
+[20:02] Yes. All right. I would say so. would say so. So go ahead. explain the 2 different than 2 different things. So undercooking fresh pasta means it's going to absorb more water, meaning it's not going to have enough water to form any sort of stable sauce or
+
+[20:16] emulsion and what's the what's the on the flip side with the with the dry pasta? With the dry pasta, um, I mean, there's a tendency that maybe the pasta itself could start to break down and thicken the sauce. Hmm. And so like trap more water because the pasta starch is breaking down, you think? surface area. I mean, what do you, in other words, if you want to do what this person wants to do, what would you do? Would you pre-blend egg yolks and Parmesan with a little bit of liquid before you toss it in a sauce if you wanted to add it early and get something that kind of creamy? Yeah, what I would tend to do, like, for example, what we what we do as a post, though, is we tend to like to use incredibly salty water.
+
+[21:01] I wouldn't go so far as to say seawater is salty, but on salinity reading refractometer. We generally, uh, record it at between 10 and 10 and 12 PPP. Parts per. Parts per thousand? 10 and 12. I'd have to look up that. So that's that's 11 and one. 2%. Yes. Okay. So that would have a tendency to be too salty if you were then to try to add some of that
+
+[21:33] water to your pasta, especially if it was, you know, combined
+
+[21:39] with, you know, further reduction. Right. All right. So I prefer to use either like a clean neutral stock or broth or just
+
+[21:50] just tap water? And what, so like, what would you do? to make the premix of the cheese, what would you do to toss with it? How would you go about it? Uh, you would add, uh, once you add the pan, once you add the pasta to the pan, which we're assuming already has maybe perhaps a tablespoon, uh, I guess it depends on
+
+[22:12] the, the, the portion side. I'm speaking, uh, specifically for a 100 gram, uh, 3.5 ounce portion of pasta. So that would be like a single portion. So if you were to take a tenant sauté pan and you were to melt, uh, you know, a tablespoon of butter. Uh, we also like to use an equal part, an equal measure extra version olive oil. Which helps keep it fluid. All right. And then, and then maybe, uh, you know, a tablespoon or 2 of tap water. Um, do the do the pasta while it's in the pan. Now you have the butter, the melted butter, the olive oil, and the water, and you're trying to bring that to a simmer with the pasta.
+
+[22:57] And then you add the cheese, once it's simmered up. The cheese, the thing with the cheese is, uh, it sounds like
+
+[23:05] he's using the right stuff, 2 year old Parmesan, it's fantastic. Anything between pretty much 9 months and 2 years would be, would be
+
+[23:13] fine, it'd be hard to find anything much older than that anyway, to the, at most uh, grocery store. Um, it's better to buy a block rather than free graded, which tends to be dry, and then has reduced uh, emulsifying capability. Right. Yeah, okay, go ahead. So would you have this in your pan? The important part is that... You should never be adding the keys over the heat because it has a tendency to string out then and
+
+[23:41] cook to the bottom of the of the pan. Okay. So once you're adding the cheese, it should always be off the fire. Right. So, but if it's clumping, you think, what are your thoughts on, okay, let's say they're doing it like home style? They're going to serve an entire pound of pasta in a bowl, right? Would you ever consider throwing the hot, the hot butter in the, in the bottom of the bowl with the oil, tossing that, and then pre-blending the cheese with the liquid to make sure that the cheese was able to form kind of a stable kind of a situation, blend the cheese in the
+
+[24:16] liquid, in a blender, and then pour it over and toss, or no? Oh, good. Yeah, I suppose you could. Like, like he had mentioned a Mornay saw. Yeah, but for that you need an egg yolk anyway, right? egg yolk is fine, but I definitely wouldn't be adding any flour. No, yeah, no, no, no. But like, would you add, in other words, but you'd pre-blend all of those liquids before you
+
+[24:35] toss it with the oil first, then pre-blend the liquids, but you need, the bottom line is you need water because if there's only fat, you can't have any sort, it's
+
+[24:43] gonna just clump into itself. The solids will clump and there's no there's no liquid to hold it, right? The bottom line, yeah. There's traditional carbonara techniques where you would take water and
+
+[24:54] egg and pepper and cheese and mix that separately before adding it to the pasta.
+
+[25:00] Yeah, I used to make that all the time. That's the only way I would ever make that stuff. But if he doesn't want to egg yolk it, you're saying, just make sure you add enough water so that the cheese doesn't clump up when you're doing it.
+
+[25:11] But if you use hypersalty water, which is going to make the pasta taste good, don't add that because that's going to be too salty. Exactly, exactly. Okay. And I had one other thing with it. What was this, Stas? With the with the with the Parmesan with the with the with the pasta. I don't know. I can't think of it. Do you think it you think it's ever going to be as good? Big Bull family style? Probably, right? Why not? Do you ever use the, you ever use the cooking pot as a heater for the bowl when you put the pasta into it?
+
+[25:36] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all right. There we go. All right. Anything else to add to help this person from stringing out or are we are we good? Do we give them everything they need? I would not use a not use a stabilizer. Add it back to the fire once you add the table. I would not use a stabilizer. You know what I'm saying? I would not try to... It's just not necessary. And it won't even help because what your main problem here is that you don't have enough liquid. And if you don't have enough liquid, a stabilizer is going to be useless to. I'm also a big fan of adding like a decent amount afterwards on the top along with the pepper. Do you like that or hate that? Yes, I do. I do I like that. Okay, cool. And pepper on that sucker too, right? Of course. Yeah. Jesus. Do you know what, am I bad, Mark? Because I've gotten to a point where it's almost impossible for me to eat pasta without crushed red pepper at home.
+
+[26:25] I mean, when I'm out at a restaurant, I don't ask for it. If it wasn't intended with the pasta,
+
+[26:29] like I would never adult poster, we'll go, hey, what's the crush with pepper with this? come on. You know what I mean? But, I mean, at home, I can't eat freaking pasta without crushed red
+
+[26:38] pepper. Does that make me a bad man? No, it makes you Nastasia Lopez. All right, Mark. Thanks so much for calling in. Yeah, Helen. Cooking issue team. Well, you know, we're the team that always unscrews the crushed red pepper. Mark, if you ever have some sort of quick service has crushed red pepper, I know you were going to get the correct shaker for the crushed red pepper and not this abomination that's staring me at the
+
+[27:04] face for the window here at Roberta's. Exactly. Yeah, we're working on that. Hey, did you know Roberto? Thanks so much for inviting me on your show. Oh, thanks. Thanks for Thanks for coming on. Bye. All right, take care, guys. Have a good day. You too. Speaking of quicksurve, you see Roberta's has the frozen pizza now? Have you seen it in the aisles? I've not seen it now. store do they sell it in? I saw it at food import and now, no, not... Food emporium. food, no. because food important went out of business because food important was the same thing as A and P. And P went out of business. You don't seem to, you're not broken up by it. No, I'm dead. I'm sad. It's real sad. It's like my, uh, so my my stepfather, uh, Gerard, his dad used to be like butchered to the mafia in
+
+[27:51] in Boston. And so, uh, I forget they had to go to, like one of the main dons in Boston, the, the daughter who was a nurse died of, in quotes, asthma, right? And so, you know, I think Gerard or, you know, went to the funeral and they had one of those giant goons and he was like, 0 man, it's such a shame. The guy goes, yeah, real sad. And that's it. Like, you know what I mean? Like you imagine, you can picture it, can't you? Yeah. Yeah. real sad. Dead face. You know what I mean? Total dead face. All right, listen, you want to take a quick commercial break, David? come back with some more cooking issues? Yeah, let's do it. Will do. All right.
+
+[28:38] Marks, I think he was in a deli. This one is Journey from Lime Rock by the Slow Roasters.
+
+[29:03] We'd like to send a special thank you to our latest business member. Consider Bardwell. 300 acre considered Bardwell Farm was the 1st cheesemaking co-op in Vermont, founded in 1864 by consider Stebbins Bardwell himself. A century later, Angela Miller, Russell Glover, and Chris Gray are revitalizing the tradition. Their cheeses are made by hand in small batches from whole fresh milk that is antibiotic and hormone free. Only microbial rendies used in their cheese making. All cheeses are aged on the farm in their extensive system of caves. To learn more or purchase cheese, visit considerbardwell.com. To learn more about becoming a business member email us info@heritageradionetwork.org. All right. So we were talking about before the caller and before Mark came on, we were talking about the
+
+[29:51] gaps diet, gaps diet. All right, now, it stands for gut and psychology syndrome, right? And it's got the road sign, and it's got, it's a natural treatment for dyspraxia, which we
+
+[30:04] was talking about, is like, you know, problems with issues with muscular control movement. ADD and ADHD, which are those actually different? One is... No, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. No, an attention deficit disorder. This is the same thing. It doesn't really deserve 2 signs. Someone call me in if I'm wrong, but like I've been called both of those things my whole life. And so I don't really see that there's much of a distinction. Schizophrenia is on that same sign. Depression on the other side of that same sign, dyslexia and autism. So we're talking here is what we say, a broadband shotgun of stuff that they're trying to fix with this diet.
+
+[30:40] schizophrenia. First of all, like right off the bat, right off the bat. Now, I don't want to tread on anyone's. want to poop on anyone's parade too hard here, but, right? Anytime I see someone hitting this broad a spectrum of things with one
+
+[30:55] thing, and I'm just going to say this because it's, you know, I have the same issue in my family like all over the place. So, like, you know, I'm not talking out of school here. Anytime you have a situation where you have a parent with a child and they're focused on some sort of issue that they want to kind of remedy and they're looking for any kind of remedy possible,
+
+[31:15] right? Uh, you get in these situations that have a lot of, um, and again, I don't know anything about it, but a lot of bells start ringing in my head when I start seeing signs like this that they say
+
+[31:26] they can fix this. Now this is, look, for instance, I'll read the spiel. The gap's diet was derived from the specific carbohydrate diet, SCD, created by Dr. Sidney Valentine Haas. I wonder whether they're related to the egg coloring people. Oh, it's pas. I like anything with 2 A's, though. You like that? The 2 A's? Yeah. To create, to naturally treat chronic inflammatory conditions in the digested
+
+[31:53] tract as a result of damaged gut lining. Now that's can happen, right? You know, SCD grained great popularity after a mother, Elaine Gottschall, he did her own child of ulcerative colitis and became an advocate for SCD.
+
+[32:06] Elaine Gottschaw is the author of the popular book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle, Intestinal Health through Diet. Now, listen, there's been 100s of years of people worried about how their intestines work and like having various
+
+[32:17] crackpot, like theories about, like how what we eat is eating is from the inside or that stuff gets trapped in your intest. Look, even today, Dax. Let me ask you a question, Dax. Did you see all the snacks at your house? That was not the question. I was going to ask, but yes, that's very nice. So how long does gum stay in your stomach when you swallow it? Uh... Would say it again? When you when you chew gum and you swallow it, what happens to it? Um, it goes down your throat. And then what? I don't know what happens after. How long do you think it's in your stomach for? Um, Until you digest it? See, now Dax has not been poisoned. See, maybe it's because he's my son. You know, when I grew up, it was like a year. It'll stay in your stomach for 5 years. Yeah, which is a load of garbage. I mean, you don't digest it. You poop it out. You don't you can't digest it. It's synthetic now and it's cheek clay anyway. You know it's a cheek lay. It comes from the same tree. Anyway, but like, uh, my point being that, like, it used to be that they would say that you digest it forever. And this is all part of this kind of nonsense. And then like people, there used to be people who would say that like everything is caused by worms and every time you poop something
+
+[33:24] out, that you, whatever, it's a nightmare. Uh, so, Anytime someone says that they're going to link your brain health through your intestinal
+
+[33:33] system. This goes back also so that's your gram was huge on this. So there's like a, it's a lot of weirdness involved with like linking up like your intestinal health with your brain health.
+
+[33:46] Now, there's probably like some truth. I mean, we're all interconnected system or some interconnected system, but huge bells go off in my head. What about you, stuff? it makes you nervous. Okay, look, 3 years of research and clinical experience, this is a different person now. Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride, okay? Adjusted her protocol to fit the individual healthcare need of her patients suffering from a variety of intestinal and neurological conditions as a result of an imbalanced
+
+[34:09] bacterial, says ecosystem within the GI tract. The gaps diet focus on removing foods that are difficult to digest and damaging the gut flora, and replacing them with nutrient dense foods to give the intestinal lining a chance to heal and seal.
+
+[34:21] Now, I read more of like the outline and everything, and like I said, I haven't read any studies based on
+
+[34:28] it. I don't know if she has any studies based on it or if there are any studies based on it. But it has the ring of 19th century reformers craziness, like
+
+[34:39] all, like, smacking of, like, you know, autointoxication, which is another thing people used to say, uh, degeneration of your insight. Now, this is not to say, look, for instance, it is a well-known fact that there's a group of people on the autistic spectrum who have huge GI
+
+[34:55] problems. right? Like huge. It's actually like a really big issue. So maybe there's some link, but I doubt that like fixing the GI thing is what is causing the brain condition
+
+[35:07] to happen. It just, the whole thing seems kind of nutty to me. That's all. So I tend to stay away from things like that until somebody proves that they work. And anything that is supposed to cure that many disparate things just makes me a little bit, you know, a little bit what? That's what my friend Phil does. He tries all these diets to help with his brain stuff. Yeah, and that's what's wrong with America. Right? Not eating meat. No, I'm not eating this. No, not drinking beer. And every and every day. Is he still Phil? Does his fullness change? Does his does his innate fullness change? Now, look, there's another thing too, right? I think that, like, anytime that you think something works, there's, like, it helps you to work. I mean, if you think it's gonna work, it probably will help you to work a little bit, right? I mean, the mind is a crazy, awesome thing.
+
+[35:56] So if you're convinced it's going to work. Maybe it will. Who knows? What do you think? No, I just agreed with you. Well, you can't shake your head because people can't see that on your radio. All right. What do you think, Dax? What do you think about crazy diets? Um, some are bad, some? Because people think they need it, but sometimes they don't. No they never do. Well, some people need to lose the weight, though. They eat like crap. Do you know what the... You know what the most effective way to, for Dax, are we allowed to say junk food in our house? No, no, you can eat. Was there a lot of junk food in your cabinets? Nastasia left a lot of junk food. Now, Dax, we're gonna have this out now. This has nothing to do with cooking. Sorry, people, but we're all in the same room. So some of the Nastasia stayed at my house last week, 2 weeks ago, right? She said to me that somebody who shall remain nameless, but it's
+
+[36:50] Jordana Rothman, wanted to light the fireworks that we had at the house that were specifically
+
+[36:55] Daxes. They weren't even mine to give. They were Dax's fireworks, right? And job down your tree. Which treat did they want shot? The one that you look like you're going to hit when you're on the zip line? Yeah, you don't 1st of all, even if she wanted to, those guys don't know how to chop down trees. They're New York City people, whatever. My point is, did you, in fact, light the wolf pack firecrackers? Where are the wolf pack firecrackers, Nastasia? We moved them all on the table to the hockey people. No, what is it? No, I would have... The Chinese New Year, firecrackers. Don't look like a belt of bullets? Mm. Nastasia. You know what I think happened, people? I think I think I think Nastasia came up on her dirtbag buddies. saw them light in the fireworks. Someone was like, what are you doing? Those are yours. you crazy? And they stopped after they'd already met in the wolf packs. Because that's what I would have done. I swear to you. I would have liked to have seen it. I've never seen this. Someone, or she took it home. We have to go to, but all I'm saying is we now have to go to the great state of Pennsylvania to get more firecrackers. Or New Hampshire. New Hampshire does not allow firecrackers. They sell them. They don't. Where did you get them the last time? Pennsylvania. Well, no, but for Fourth of July. No, no, no. Here's the rules. for anyone out there who lives on the Eastern Sea board here where we have all these crazy rules that don't let you blow things up. And by the way, I was talking, like, here's the thing, right? So like Dax is with his dirtbag buddy. Did you really think it was Jordana and curse her name this weekend? I didn't curse her name. I waited to talk to you on the radio about it. But like, here's the thing. So it's like, so when I was a kid, right, we would go to Canal Street, which is here in New York City, it's like, you know, now they sell fake purses and stuff, but it used to be
+
+[38:37] all, like, equipment and and BS martial arts stuff, right? So, you know, my family who would never let me have anything like firecrackers or bottle rockets. By the way, I used to be able to buy firecrackers illegally in New York City before Giuliani was the mayor deck. So you kind of missed out on that. And used to be able to kind of blow stuff up in the city. Like I, back on the high line before it was a big park dax. I would blow up giant balls of popcorn with like, you know, black black powder explosions and stuff. I videos. You seen the videos of it. New York was a far different place back. you know, I think it's better now. I mean, you know, you know, we didn't need all of like the weird like heroin addicts hanging out on the highline all the time, but whatever. I'm just saying it's a different place. But Canal Street used to be able to go and you buy your throwing stars, your butterfly knives. Remember the butterfly knife styles? Those are the Bali song knives are the ones you have to flip around and you cut yourself whenever you try to use them. You're like, pap, pap, pap, pap. You never seen this? David, you know what I'm talking about, a butterfly knife, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's got the 2 handles and you go like, like, like, nunchucks, right? These are the kind of things that everyone wanted. But I wasn't allowed to have. So what do you do? You come into the city, you bought, you walk in, you're like, oh, yeah, got the towing stars, got the towing stars. They would say you that the red's part. Okay, got the thing, stops. They would say the throwing stars, and then you would hide them on your, on your person, and then you'd show them at home, and then when your parents went to work, you would start throwing the,
+
+[39:59] the, the throwing stars around. That's how you did it. My feeling is, is just say you can use these things, just under my supervision. Isn't that safer? Yeah. Because that's, are you going to do something? So these throwing hatchets that he has. Are you going to do anything stupid with those hatchets? Because you know I'm watching, right? Yeah. Wait, you are going to say? No, I know you're watching. Yeah, so you're not gonna do anything stupid, right? No, I'm not going to do anything. There's a new article that says you should just let kids do whatever and when they cut themselves, they'll know not to ever do it again. But you don't want them to cut themselves. You don't. Well, you don't mind them cutting yourselves. your kid dying. Yeah. Yeah, or getting crippled. Right. Or maimed. Who wrote this article? This person with the article have kids? This person, they have kids? Did any of them die? It was just about like, no. Yeah. Well, don't they go talk to someone? No, it's like an anthropological thing of like what different tribes do around the world and how they raise kids and how our society is so
+
+[40:52] helicopter about every little thing. Well, look, I mean, I'm all for letting the kid. That's what I'm saying to Dax all the time. But, you know, you don't have. But of course, was it safe that when I was 12, 11 and 12, I was deep frying by myself? No, but that you're alive. But only by straight freaking luck. Yeah, no, but how many people actually, what's the percentage of kids
+
+[41:12] that like die from stupid kids get hurt all the freaking time. It's like it's like my buddy. I had another buddy who was doing stupid stuff and then he cracked his head open, got meningitis and lost hearing in his ear. You want your kid to lose hearing in his ear because you weren't watching. What was he doing? Being a dumbass knucklehead. You don't even know what he was doing. I know what he was doing. He was jumping off of rocks onto other rocks. Took a header onto a rock and cracked his skull. He was lower on the survival of the fittest thing. He's a smart kid. Ended up at your alma mater, Stanford. Maybe that made him even smarter. You never know. Being definitely? Yeah. All I'm saying is, look, we need to strike a balance. All right, I'm finally going to answer some of these questions from before. Aaron Morgan writes in about margaritas. Now answer this a little bit, but I'll go through it in excruciating detail for you, folks. A long time listener, I have tried convincing all of my friends to listen in with mixed success. That means nobody wanted to listen to us, which, you know what, is fair. I have memorized your phone number, but whenever I've never called in. What the heck? 71849721 today. Call in, right? I mean, if you memorize it, just call in. I can recite it to myself as long as I imitate Dave Shouting into the microphone. by the way, that's the only way I can say it. Like, I can't, like, if you said, what's the number of the radio show, I'd be like, I have to open up my phone and then scream it and then type in as I go, otherwise I won't be able to do it. Remember there was like a period of like a year before I could remember what the number was to us? Yeah, then I made you. I taught you to fish. The hell are you talking about? I made you memorize. Speaking of fishing, I cannot wait for shad season. Dax, you gonna go shad fishing with me? How many shat are we going to catch? Tons. Tons, tons. We're going to catch so much shad. Is that what's in the river? What? You don't have a boat. You can go right to the bridge. You can fish white from the bridge. And you can get like non-finite numbers of shad because they're going up there to die anyway. awesome. They taste so good. I'm gonna smoke the hell out of them. They're gonna be delicious. Actually, you all for this? Yeah. Yeah, they're delicious. They're oily and big. It's got a lot of bones. I mean, compared to like a herring, they're huge. They're like, I'm holding my hands maybe like, I think they're like a foot and a half or something like that. How big were the filets we were cooking, Dax? They were like a foot long with filets. Around there, yeah. Did you enjoy them? They were great. Yeah, see? See? Dax, by the way, Dax, on a scale of 0 to 100. picky are you? With 0 being the most picky? 0 being the most picky. No, no, 100 people. where would you place yourself? 45. I don't know. I don't know, Dax. So we had a contest where everyone was trying to eat these like super, like the ship brand mango pickle that I
+
+[43:55] have, and Dak, did you chicken out or did you eat it? No, I ate it, remember? Oh, yeah, booker chicken down? Yeah. They're delicious. Your friend, Ethan. Yeah, Ethan and I He was stone cold. He was stone cold Steve pickle leader right there. He like, yeah. Yeah. Well, are they bad? They're delicious, but they're very... extreme flavor. Extreme. All right, back to the margaritas. I've recently purchased liquid intelligence. you know, my cocktail book. And I'm trying to convert your 7-Eleven style daiquiri recipe to a margarita. Last time I tried the following, which is for 2 servings, 8 ounces of tequila, 40% ABV, one play, 5 ounces of quantro,
+
+[44:34] at 40% AVV, one. 5 ounces of simple syrup, 8.5 ounces of water, water. By the way, Dax, what do you like better? Hot rod or Talladega Nights? Hot rod. All right. I haven't seen either. You haven't seen hot rod? David, you seen Hot Rod? No. Do you have Netflix? I do. What is wrong with you? You tell me. I don't know. Go watch Hot rod. Do you not like, are you not a Sandberg fan? No, I just never, you know, never got around to it. I know Shad, though. There's a shadfest in Philly where I'm from. Really? Oh, yeah. Do you enjoy Shad? Of course I do. I love the oily fish. Italian. There you go. That's the thing, but like for years, nobody would eat that, everyone was like, go the row. eat the row. The row is good as well. It's like anchovies. They get a bad rap, but they're great. Yeah, yeah, but they're delicious. And basically cooked any which way. You could smoke it. You can grill it. You could do anything to a shad. They're delicious. You've got to learn how to bone them. But listen, you gotta go watch. Do you know that show eastbound and down with that guy whose name is out of my head, the guy? Uh, yeah, what's his name? Kenny Powers or? Yeah, something like that. Anyway, he has the funny, like the funniest lines in hot rod. And so you have to see it, though, to get it anyway, whatever. add it to my list. Wait, you mean the guy with the trailer scene? Yeah, yeah, but don't ruin it for people. It's totally my hat Anyway, you'll get it after you watch it, people. Okay, Ziploc bag, put in freezer overnight. It's still not frozen, so then you added a one. 5 ounces of lime juice that brought the ABV down and it froze after 3 hours and blend. The texture is good, but the flavor was not limey enough. This reminds me of my professor of philosophy, Raymond Boyce in college, who, when I was asking him, he's like, your ideas are good.
+
+[46:20] Your writing is bad. That's what he said. And so I had to wait until I had my, my, you know, my wonderful wife who, you know, can edit me properly. Um, Texture was good, but the flavor was not limey enough for my Central American wife, broken-hearted for my failure. I drank both servings myself. So what do you make your wife in instead? You made her a regular margarita or what? What does she have? Maybe she was so angry she walked out. Whoa, Stas, bringing the harsh. I like that. What can I do to improve this recipe? And apparently your marriage? Uh, I tested my freezer and it is an average of -14 C. It's not quite cold enough. I hear you say. I know this is probably not cold enough to freeze my cocktail before adding the lime. Can I simply substitute lime juice for water? Won't my lime juice go all crappy on me overnight? What acidity level should I be looking for in this type of drink? I would love your insight on these problems. I'm totally up for more experiments. Worst case scenario, I would just have to drink more double margaritas myself until I perfect the recipe. Aaron Morgan, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. First of all, get your freezer down a little bit. You can probably change it a little bit, and there is 0 advantage to having your freezer on anything but the coldest possible setting.
+
+[47:29] Hear me? 0 advantage. Anyone that any manufacturers out there do not allow people to set their freezer to anything but maximum coal. The only time, the only time, that's the way my philosopher professor used to talk to, Raymond Boyce. The only way, the only time. That's how we would talk. that you want to change that temperature is if you have an ice cream shop and you want it to be
+
+[47:53] a dipper temperature and you are not doing that out of your home freezer. So anyway, turn it low. Anyway, I put your numbers into my, so my standard kind of daiquiri style specs for frozen stuff. It's about 16% alcohol, 8.6% sugar and 0.8 to 0.82% acid. Okay? I plugged your numbers into my database, and you're at 18% alcohol, which is high, even with the
+
+[48:20] lime. 6.3% sugar, which is low, but 0.43% lime juice, which is way freaking low. So I just rejiggered the things a little bit. And here's what I did. I did 90 used your same numbers, but instead of the amount of lime you added, I added 95 milliliters of lime, which is roughly
+
+[48:40] 3.4 ounces. Uh, and a full 2 ounces of simple syrup, 60 ounces, uh, 60 milliliters of simple syrup instead of uh, one. of simple syrup. Uh, and my numbers came in at 16.4% alcohol, uh,
+
+[48:57] 7.one%, uh, uh, sugar, and 0.82% acidity, which is going to be a lot closer to uh, the numbers that you
+
+[49:06] want. Okay? Hey Dave, we're going to have to wrapped up then. All right, so do that. and that should work for you. And just make an Excel table where you plug in all of the numbers so you can kind of figure out what you want. And then since we're wrapping it up. I will unbelievably have to put off the Thai basil one more freaking week. I'm freaking believable. But anyway, Dax, thanks for coming on cooking issues. Hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, I did. All right, see you next week with cooking issues. Bye bye. Looking at shoes.
+
+[49:49] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archive programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions anytime at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a 501 C3 nonprofit. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[50:16] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a four-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit culture city.org. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage
+
+[0:36] Radio Network in Roberta's Pizzeria. Where is this house? Where is it? Where are we? Old radio questions. Yeah, where no, where are we? We're in Chelsea, Manhattan. That would be incredible. Bushwick, Brooklyn. So joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. And she's looking up last week's questions that I missed. And Jack Jackie molecules back from his stomach virus. Yeah. Was it a virus or were you food poisoned? See, I was just talking to Styles about this before the show. Everybody pukes and they immediately assume they've been food poisoned, which is what I assumed when my girlfriend was puking all Valentine's
+
+[1:11] Day weekend. either that or she was just like sick of me and it was, you know. Wait, you were both puking it up? No, so she was 1st all weekend. And then 2 days later, I got hit with the same thing in the middle of the night. That's virus. That's not that's not food poisoning unless she got it, cooked you something, didn't wash
+
+[1:27] her hands. No, no, no, no. hit you with it. No, then she went back to work at a school, she teaches that in like half of the teachers had been calling out sick with the same thing. So. I hope she kept her mouth shut, that it was her that did it. No, it wasn't her. It was some kid in the cafeteria puked when she was working. So, of course it was a kid. Yeah, you know, they're a little virus. how do you tell, Dave, that if it's, you know, food poisoning or viral, I feel like everybody kind of jumps to that conclusion, right? They like, oh, it must have been that sushi ad or something. Yeah, I mean, usually, like, I only know it's food poisoning when, 1st of all, I very rarely have any of that kind of stuff
+
+[2:00] happen to me, but, like, I usually someone else will get hit, like, because I can survive foods that, like, I've had
+
+[2:07] my, my wife get knocked out by foods, like, like, puking, like, on the ground,
+
+[2:11] unconscious, I've had, like, friends and family, like, get totally wiped out, and, like, I just feel like a little bit not
+
+[2:17] as not good. But when I get knocked out, and then like everyone around me was eating with me, gets knocked out. pretty sure it was food poisoning. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. At the same time. Also, like, if you eat something that's just intensely stupid and you get hit pretty much, hey, you know it was the food. Like my wife once, she went, you familiar with it? I bet you're not supposed to tell the story. Fine fair. All right, never mind. Wait, what's intensely stupid food? Don't buy the week and a half old pre-made parfait at your local, like, you know, supermarket that was made by someone in the back. Got it. Don't buy the sushi that's been sitting there all day. God knows how long. You know what I mean? Like, don't like, don't buy sushi at a supermarket. You know what I mean? That has like raw products in it because all it takes is one knucklehead to not wash their hands before they
+
+[3:07] uh, before they do it or to get some cross-contamination and you are host. You know what I mean? And it's not like, it's not, you know, it's, at least at a restaurant, right? You know, you assume that the people who are cooking have had some sort of training or there's some sort of cook there who knows what's right and what's wrong and is going to at least partially prevent,
+
+[3:27] you know, the people making the food from completely destroying the clientele, but, you know,
+
+[3:33] at the supermarket, Who the hell knows? You know what I mean? Supermarket sushi. Right up there with gas station sushi. You know, our good friend of the show, Peter Kim, once purchased a moldy sandwich made at a gas station and ate it and didn't die. Well, he took the mold off, and then when he was finished with the sandwich, he saw an extra piece of something in the
+
+[3:51] container and he was like, oh, I'm not done. And then he ate the mold, forgetting that he had taken the mold. Yeah, now listen. The thing about Peter Kim lived like, like literally lived like in a hut in the jungle for years can eat, it has amazing pictures from Cameroon
+
+[4:06] of like he was like teaching these little kids and they would draw pictures of people with like horrible intestinal
+
+[4:12] diseases, like spraying fluids out of every orifice, intense stuff. So I guess he, you know, he has a strong personality in terms of his constitution. So, you know, he's like, what's Mole going to do to me? Although I'll tell you what. The problem with mold is you never know what kind of mold, if you're worried about what kind of mold you got, bad mold has the
+
+[4:28] appletoxin, and then you don't know until you get the cancer like 20 years later, you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? I stay away from it. Well, we'll check in with Peter in 20 years, right? For a number of reasons. Wow. That's rough. There's a caller on the hall. Okay, caller, you're on the air. Hi, Jeff, this is Andrew from Pittsburgh. How you doing? I'm doing well I'm a bartender and I just had a bunch of really fantastic USBG classes yesterday. Nice. One of them was a removes class, and the guy giving the class, um, talked
+
+[4:58] about, um, forest roots, and it's, uh, its role in Jan, and he kind of described it as, um, He said it kind of helped lift the all the other ingredients. It doesn't really have a flavor by itself. It's just kind of bitterness, but it helps lift all the other flavors. Well, it's got a flavor. It's got like a kind of also like a vague kind of sweetness. I like Orris. I think Oris is good. You know what I mean? We were playing with Oris last week, so... Yeah, I mean, you don't want, like, you know, you don't want, like, I don't know that anyone's ever made a a plain orris root liqueur. don't think it would stand on its own, but you know what I mean? It's it's good. Anyway, so what do we got going with Oris? Okay, so I, I mean, that anything that is an additive effect to a lot of other ingredients always interests me. And so, um, you know, I looked up, tried to find as much
+
+[5:48] as I could about it, all the usual suspects. I went to McGee, and he didn't have anything, and then I went to Jimmy Stewart, and he just had a very short little piece on it, um, and talking about how it was like affixative and
+
+[5:57] how old fragrances or flavors in solution, like concurting some sort of missing compound, um, to keep them from, um, volatilizing.
+
+[6:08] Is that true or is that just a theory? I have. I mean, I have no idea on this. So, I mean, I'm coming at it from hearing about this lesson 24 hours ago. Right. I don't understand why it would do that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's kind of my question, was if you knew more about
+
+[6:26] it, and what you could do with it, or if it was possible to make a tincture that would, uh, that you could use to kind of act as a way to lift a bunch of other ingredients, or I mean, if that's even possible. or. Well, I mean, obviously certain flavors and also certain aromas and certain
+
+[6:42] tastings, right, can push and pull other flavors up and down in the way that you perceive
+
+[6:49] them, even if they themselves are not immediately perceivable. And so the obvious ones are, of course, vanilla and salt, right? So, uh, and, you know, it's entirely, um, possible, feasible
+
+[7:03] that, um, Oris also has some of those uh, characteristics. I don't understand what would be in Oris root that would literally fix. In other words, make volatiles less fugitive. You know what I mean? Um, I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe, I, the thing is, I've carbonated things with Lores before, and I don't notice it doesn't have
+
+[7:23] any like, it doesn't really change the viscosity. It doesn't like, doesn't appreciably, I don't think, change the surface tension too much. So I don't know what, or in other words, I don't see anything that it would change that would stop stuff from volatilizing, but it might make
+
+[7:36] volatiles more apparent to you. Now, what typically, like Nastasia and I literally, we did this like a week
+
+[7:42] ago, or 2 weeks ago, you know, what you should do is, and I'm sure you have a local store in
+
+[7:48] Pittsburgh, you know, we have a couple here. I know, you know, a couple where they are in Philadelphia, but, you know, everyone's got one or there's the internet. And, you know, just get a bunch of different things.
+
+[7:57] And I would make a tea, a water-based tea. And then I would do an alcohol tincture and I would do one like hot, it depends on how much experimentation you want to do, hot, cold, and then ISI. And then you can kind of get a range because what happens is the different extraction techniques, i.e. in water or in oil, water or in alcohol will pull out different
+
+[8:21] properties. And also, whether it's hot or cold or whether it's ISI is going to change the extraction
+
+[8:29] speed, and usually the faster extraction speeds tend to reduce bitter components and increase kind of aromatic highlights, which is
+
+[8:36] nice. And so what you do is you just make a whole boatload of these tinctures, make them one item, right? And then you can go about and mix them. So if you're very accurate, if you measure exactly how much product you put into your tinctures, like, you know,
+
+[8:53] like I am doing 20 grams of orris into 500 mils of water, 500 mils boiling water, steeping it for 5 minutes and straining
+
+[9:02] it, bang. Now you know, and you know, you keep track to make sure that the Oris root's always the same size all the time, so your extraction rate's the same, et cetera, et cetera. Then, you know, you're like, okay, I put 5 milliliters of that solution in and then, you know, 20 milliliters of mace, the solution and blah, blah, blah. And then you can go back and reconstruct your recipe. Now, it's never going to taste the same when you try to do all your extractions at the same
+
+[9:24] time or you average them out, but you can get pretty close and you can really kind of fine tune your mixtures. Or, for instance, you could buy someone's gin and you could jack the Orris. You know what I mean? You can do a bunch of things like that. So it's a lot of fun. But, you know, in order to do experimenting, you really have to end up, how much of a pain in the ass is it? I mean, but but sorry, paint of the butt. Yeah, family show. But the, yeah, so you're sitting there with like, you know, 30 quart containers all
+
+[9:50] labeled, and, you know, don't even bother tasting at the get go, just crank court containers out with different known solutions in
+
+[9:58] them, and then just go out tasting. Teas are the fastest, right? I mean, like, and cheapest because you're not blasting through alcohol. So I think as a 1st approximation, alcohol is going to taste entirely different, but, you know, just for fun playing around,
+
+[10:11] it's really fun doing, um, uh, teas. And then the great thing about teas is, is that you can use them for sodas. You know what I mean? So you can make sodas and non-alcoholic stuff. And then you can later kind of reramp those recipes for alcohol or bar, but remembering that if you do extractions in
+
+[10:32] alcohol, you almost invariably pull more bitter components out. Okay. Um, and without using um, fresh ores or is that using the really overdried, or is that um, they do to get the iron
+
+[10:42] to, like they, something oxide turns into Iowa? Uh, the only stuff I've ever used is that is like dried. It's like they almost look like very white wood chips, but they're small. Yeah, that's the only kind I've ever I've ever used. You've seen it fresh or? No, no, I haven't. I was just curious. if there was a way to use the press. The only one that I've seen and talked about was super, super dried, oxidizes a
+
+[11:05] lot, so it, um, producing the iron. I mean, that's like the, I mean, the characteristic one I'm used to is that. And you remember, is that, you know, most of the time when people were making liqueurs and things like that, they were dealing with the dried article
+
+[11:18] anyway because, you know, they weren't growing it necessarily. And if they were, they were stockpiling it and drying it. Dry stuff is a lot more stable. So, you know, like, um, if you're, you would never make, um,
+
+[11:30] and there's a question later, we could talk about it, hopefully, that you never would make something that is intended to be stable with something unstable,
+
+[11:38] right? And so, uh, liquors, uh, and liqueurs and
+
+[11:42] and spirits and whatnot typically are meant to be relatively stable over a relatively long period of time.
+
+[11:49] So in general, you'd be using things that are dried out. Now, I do the exact opposite a lot and try to make things that you wouldn't ordinarily have fresh. It couldn't be made that couldn't be made as a commercial product because they won't last. And that is really fun to do, right? So, like fresh turmeric, for instance, or fresh galongol, or, you know, things like this, that the, um, where
+
+[12:11] the, you know, the, the freshness couldn't be really made into a commercial product, uh, but you can, because you're going to sell it right away. But the problem then is, if you don't sell it right away, you're stuck with a lot of product that costs money, but, you know, that's life in
+
+[12:23] Big City. Yeah. All right, great. Thank you so much. appreciate it. Hey, no problem. Good luck. Wait, so what are we talking about, size? Food poisoning. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, just stay away stay away from stay away from the supermarket, sushi, right, says? Do you ever eat that stuff? What, is there anything that is, like, really, like stupid like that? that you like to eat? Hmm. Mark eats the tiramisu from Food Emporium. Whoa, not anymore. Food Emporium out of business, remember? Or fine fair. every night Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Mark Ladner. Chef of Del Posto restaurant. It's the tiramisu from the fine fair. The fine, you don't even have fine fair. Wait, wait, people, for those of you that know, they shop at Big Apple Supermarket, which is Big Apple
+
+[13:17] Supermarket, at least the roaches are refrigerating. I haven't dropped there in a while. Yeah? I used to like shopping there because they have the giant buckets of food, like the giant, giant buckets of food, like the giant thing of cheese, the government cheese
+
+[13:30] blocks, and the giant cans. I forget what can I used to buy. There's some can, some giant can of food in the 15, number 15 that I used to buy there all the time for home. I loved it. You hate it? It's just a little further. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, oh, Stas, another question, my maybe of interest. Did did I see that our patent provisional patent got put in or no? So we can talk about it now? guess so. You sure? I can recheck. Yeah, she's going to recheck and if we're allowed to talk about, if we're allowed to talk about our new patent, we can. Oh, and did we have we have a new product. It not like a big new product. Don't get excited, but we're going through beta testing now with some with some users. We hadn't heard anything back. Do people like it? Do they hate it? Yeah, Nick likes it. Trying to find how to use it with pebble ice. Huh. So how long until we start selling it? you think? Um I don't know, like 2 weeks? Okay, so for those of you that were listening, I don't know, we've talked about it before on the show, right? There's this, okay, listen, when you're shaking a cocktail, you want to shake with big ice, right?
+
+[14:33] Why? Because the texture's better. That's it. The texture's just better. But a lot of times you don't have big ice, right? When I say big ice, I'm talking like 2 inches on a side, big ice. And something about that big cube rattling around inside of your uh, inside of your shaker um, makes the texture better. But the problem is you don't have that isolate. And even if you do have that ice, it's shake once and you throw it away, so you're throwing away all this
+
+[14:55] ice, so your freezer is going to be full of these big ice cubes, you shake them once, you throw them
+
+[14:59] away. wasteful, right? Waste, waste. And also, if you're doing an event, right? And this is why we came up with it. If you're going to do an event and you're going out to, let's say, let's say you're going to some, like, crap tank, you know, cater location. I'm not saying that all cater locations are crap tank. Many are beautiful, but you know what I'm saying, crab tank. So you go there and the ice they bring you is like the world's worst ice. It's like it like literally is like a soupy, soupy mess of like tiny shells and broken
+
+[15:28] things. You know what I'm talking about, stuff. So that ice, from a dilution standpoint, as we all know from the fundamental law of cocktails, if anyone's read the liquid intelligence, like the dilution's going to be fine, as long as you shake off the excess water that's on
+
+[15:42] it, because it's got a lot of surface area water on it, but the texture's not going to be good. So what you do is, is, uh, you, we made this fake, fake cube. What do we call it? The cocktail cube? Yeah. Doesn't chill drinks. Listen to me, please, very freaking carefully. It does not chill drinks. When do I freeze this cube? Oh my god. You're going to confuse the people, Stas. Seriously, not going to actually register in their brains until you say it 3 times. Okay, listen. Dude, listen. People are like, okay, so you put this in the freezer and you use it instead of ice cube. No. No, no. First of all, you need ice to melt to dilute the drink or the dilution will be wrong. Right? I mean, clearly you need ice to melt. And plus, we make this cube out of a polymer, it's polyurethane that is an insulator. It does not chill, nor does it heat your drink. Does it chill, it stars? No. Does it heat it? No. Should you put it in your freezer? No? Right, right. It neither chills nor heats. It's just there to provide texture. So you throw this into your shaker, along with whatever crap tanking ice you have at your event or at your wonderful house, and you shake it, and then you wash off the
+
+[17:00] cube and you start again. Now, the one thing I have been told is that you should run. It's not in the instructions, people. But that you should run this polyurethane cube through the dishwasher once before you use it to, you know, because
+
+[17:10] it's, it's, and we should have put it in the instructions, but it's a manufactured item, so you want to wash it before you use it.
+
+[17:15] Yeah. I'd say dishwasher, right? Yeah, it's a very, like a rubbery polyurethane because we discovered that if we used a really hard one that you
+
+[17:23] would, it would like kind of like make little flakes, but it's rubber works great, but it's not so rubbery. Did I talk about this next show ever? We made one so rubbery that it felt gross. Oh, speaking of, we allowed to talk about your sister's art piece? that your sister's art piece? No? All right, so we won't talk about it, but speaking of like rubbery things, it may or may not feel like they belong in an adult shop. Like, yeah. Uh, this art piece, it does, sent me a GIF of is uh, unreal. I wish we could talk about it because it reminds me of an art piece that I did. She doesn't know somebody who made it there. don't know. it's not hers now, unfortunately. Yeah. That's good to you, Jack. Okay. So call her on the line. Color, you're on the air. Hi. Hi, Dave, Natalia, and the whole gang. Um, I am a huge a huge fan of the show. I've been trying to make some veggie chips. So far, I've been experimenting with taro, sweet potato, rutabaga, and custava. I've been having a hard time getting the sweet potato and rutabaga to crisp up nicely. I was wondering if you had any suggestions. Right. So they're soft and they go brown too fast, right? Uh, yeah. Yeah. Are you soaking them a lot beforehand? So, um, I tried to um, 2 different things. Uh, one of them, I, uh, just like, I've been to Boston, like, cold water, and then one other time, I uh, salted them for a half hour beforehand, and both times, both things didn't really work. Yeah. So there's a couple issues here. Wait, what was the sweet potato? What was the other one you're having problems with? I'm sorry? Yeah, the sweet potato you're having problems. was the other one? Rutabaga. Rutabaga. Huh. Does Rutabaga have? Rutabaga does have sugar in it, huh? Yeah, it was pretty sweet when I like tasted it raw. Yeah. So the, I love rutabaga. I never had a rutabaga chip. I love it. I don't know why. Do you know why that the Brits call it Swede? No. Me neither. It's a delicious vegetable. Don't you find it an underused vegetable? Yeah, I mean, it tastes kind of like turnip to me. Yeah, but better. In other words, like, if someone said to me, hey, you could have a rutabaga or, hey, you could have a turnip, would you ever
+
+[19:24] say, give me the turnip? Never. Rutabaga sounds so much better. Doesn't it, though? What do you think, Jack? It's obvious. I mean, yeah, obviously. Rutabaga. So, here's the thing. Sugar is doing 2 things bad to you. One. It's browning very quickly when it's frying, right? And secondly, as it cools down, the residual sugar, because it's, you know, hygroscopic, is going to be absorbing moisture and is going to make them soft and pliable, which are both your enemy, which is why, by the way, sweet potato
+
+[19:58] fries, in general, fries, not chips, fries, hard to make taste
+
+[20:03] good, and so I never order them. Ever. But the, uh, never. But the, so how do you get around this? One, if you soak to try and get as much soluble sugar out as possible. You're going to win somewhat. The other thing you're going to want to do is that you're going to want to get as much of the liquid out of the thing
+
+[20:20] before before it
+
+[20:24] goes brown. So start, are you starting with cold oil? Cold oil, I haven't been. You should. With chips. Here's the thing, right? So the common wisdom when you're frying something, right? Is you put the oil in, and you put it in hot, and you don't let the temperature drop too much, because God forbid, if the temperature drops, the oil is going to get absorbed into whatever you're frying,
+
+[20:46] right? This is what we've all been taught growing up. right? Okay. In a chip, chips are supposed to be filled with oil. Anyone who tells you that a chip a chip is supposed to be freaking saturated with oil, like half the weight of a chip is the oil that's been absorbed. It's it's solely crust. There is no reason to not, um, you know, fully inundate a chip with oil. Now, you don't want grease on the outside, right? You want to like, you know, put them on a towel and get the excess grease. Greasy chips disgusting, but like they, like having oil in the chip itself, not bad. In fact, necessary. That's what a chip is. That's why those, quote unquote, baked chips are an abomination, enemy of quality,
+
+[21:29] ridiculous, freaking things that should be banned. They should not call them. They should call them something else. Do you like those things, Todds? Jack, do you like those dang things? No, no, no. They're ridiculous. Like, the thing is, is there a joke? Why do people even, why don't they just call them something else? Do you know what I'm saying? They're not a potato chip. Okay, enough. But listen. If you start from a cold oil, what happens is, is that you can regulate the heat, you need to get rid of all of the
+
+[21:55] water. That is your problem. You need to you need to get the water out of those chips before they turn brown.
+
+[22:01] So if you go cold, then you can do that. So, for instance, some people do this by putting a vacuum on.
+
+[22:10] So there was a people used to try to sell this thing called a gastrovac, which was, uh, it didn't really work, but
+
+[22:15] they said it was a vacuum fryer, but the problem is, is that they put a vacuum pump on it that didn't have the cojones to really suck a vacuum while you were frying,
+
+[22:22] right? didn't work. But people commercially use a vacuum fryer to make things like apple chips. So the apple chips, they want to fry them, but they don't want to absorb a lot of oil because, I don't know why, because they're, you know, low quality people. And they suck a vacuum on it so that they can get rid of the water at a low temperature without the apple browning because the apple's got a lot of sugar in it, right?
+
+[22:41] And so if you had a commercial system, which is, I think, how they do a lot of these kind of things commercially, you could suck a vacuum while you fry, but that's not really an option for
+
+[22:48] you. For you, I would say, do an initial soap to get rid of as much of the sugar as you
+
+[22:53] can, then start from cold oil and bring it up slow. Get the water out, and then at the last minute, let the temperature ramp up to do any additional browning that you want after they, after
+
+[23:04] they kind of bubble the stuff out. You ever fried tortillas? Me, no, I haven't. You should, because yeah, because if you buy 1st of all, like buying tortilla chips, they charge too much for the tortilla
+
+[23:16] chips, and I find them too thin. I don't enjoy the thin. Do you enjoy thin tortillas? I do not enjoy those. They suck. You want the thick ones. So, like, you know, I'm not a fan of, like, you know, the Maseca in general, if you can get the real Masa, but, like, for frying, they're fine. Just go buy like the regular like big stacks of tortilla, you know, tortillas. you know, I break them in half like a book, like, book, book, not break them, but like, fold them so that they separate and then, like, peel them all individually apart, put them down into a stack, chop them into
+
+[23:45] 6, and fry them. But they're good practice for chips, uh, for potato chips because they're a lot more, um, forgiving than a potato chip. But you just want to look at a tortilla chip, right? And it's going to bubble like a lunatic for a while, stir them up. And then you're going to notice the bubbling start to subside, right? And that's when you know that you've gotten almost all the water out of the tortilla chip. Now, the mistake people make when they fry tortilla chips, is they pull them out too soon because they don't want them to get too dark or they have, but when you pull them out, you have that little circle on the inside of the triangle that's too
+
+[24:14] white. Anyone know what I'm talking about? style. You know what I'm talking about? And then you tap it and it's not crunchy. And that's the worst. No one wants a sauce, unless you're making chilaquilis or something, nobody wants a soggy tortilla chip. not what you want. And the same goes true for potato chips, but I would practice maybe with tortillas on the frying because you can start tortilla chips also from cold. Uh, you don't need to and and bring them up. And you'll notice that the water, if you get that oil temperature right, the water will go
+
+[24:38] away, and then you have like a couple, like, you have several seconds of window between
+
+[24:43] that, and when they start over browning. I also don't like an over brown tortilla chip. Do you like that stuff? They start getting that burn over nutty flavor. No good. Tortilla chips, good practice for you, and very cheap, and everybody likes tortilla chips that have been fried at home.
+
+[24:58] They just, they're just like, They're just so much better. They really are, right, Jack? I agree. All right. Give that give that try and tweet us back and let us know how it worked. We'll do it. Thank you very much. right, no problem. Hey, Jack, should we take a break? That's what I was just going to say. All right, buddy.
+
+[25:19] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Culture City, a four-purpose organization that provides a place of acceptance and support for all autism families.
+
+[25:32] This is Culture City's founder Julian Maha. Culture City was really born out of necessity. You know, it was born when my, you know, currently six-year-old boy was diagnosed with autism. His name is Abram and he's non-verbal. And even though my wife and I were both physicians at the time, It was really hard for us to find any resources at that point to help
+
+[25:52] him. All the other organizations out there that we know of. They do phenomenal work, but their main focus is basically finding a cure for autism. Our main focus is basically trying to prepare the community to accept not only children with
+
+[26:06] autism, but their families as well. You know, in addition to that, we also want to provide help to these families in the here and now. You know, so tangible things like, you know, iPads, for non-mobile kids, you know, financial scholarships,
+
+[26:18] uh, therapy, scholarships, you know, art camps, and also some um, lecture series that can teach parents about, you know, dietary issues, um, you know, how to financially plan and things like
+
+[26:30] that. For more information, visit culturecity.org. Sounds good. Are they good people, Jet? Oops, sorry, they are very good people. Yeah, in Birmingham. Very, very good people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, exactly, exactly right. I think the, you know, the attitude is like everyone, you know, focuses on a cure when you get hit with a diagnosis for your kids like
+
+[26:53] that. It's like, oh, cure, cure, cure, but no, it's like what you want to do is have your kid be the best them they can be. The most have the most joy in life for what they, for what they want. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Yeah, that's what they do. That's the whole point of the organization. And yeah, they're great. And they also kind of like, they were a big part of the wave of getting like iPads and noise canceling headphones
+
+[27:15] and restaurants and stuff. So, you know, like having things available for kids with autism and families that want to dine out or go out. They do tons of work, culture city with a K. Um, definitely check them out. Yeah, and you know, that's the other thing. If you see, like, look, parent, like people, people who don't like have, uh, haven't dealt with these kinds of issues, just be, uh, be, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Be charitable to people around you. You're like, why is a kid doing that? Just shut up and leave him alone. You know what I'm saying, Jack? Absolutely Yeah. Uh, and uh, because there's a lot of things that you don't understand, like why kids can't, why this kid can't eat food that are
+
+[27:55] mixtures. And look, I have problems with it too. Like, why can't kids? Who knows? But, you know, deal with it. That's that's life. It's a weird thing not liking foods mixed together, right, Stas? Were you like that when you were a kid? Uh, yeah, but not, yeah. Not like, you know, like... not rose or whatever. Yeah, like Booker can't have anything like mixed. He like, he wants his chicken broth by itself. Remember when you gave him a chicken breast and an egg and I said that's a bad idea because... I think you prompted
+
+[28:25] him. So I didn't, I said it to you privately. He's like, dad, too much protein, dad. Not too much chicken. Not too much chicken protein because there was an egg. The egg and the chicken. It eats the same animal. Here's your dinner, kid. Here's your dinner. Well, look, at the time, he just wanted, like, all he wanted was chicken and eggs. So I figure I'll combine 2 things he likes separately on the plate. I don't know, whatever. Um, So, Stas, do me a favor. I had a question. I didn't get a chance to look up the recipe because I don't have it committed to memory. I've had a committed memory before, but I erase it from my mind. Can you look up a long island iced tea because we had a question about it and you can ask me. And meanwhile, hit another, hit another question here. This in from Benjamin Terry. My sister wants you to know that is not her art project. Uh, okay. There may or may not be, there may or may not be a rubber, there may or may not be a rubber male member attached to a servo motor that goes back and forth like a windshield
+
+[29:25] wiper, and as it, as it's moving out of the way, a steak knife comes down and just misses
+
+[29:31] it, right? And so that's the piece that Nastasia's sister said if she didn't make. But it reminds me very much of a piece that I actually made back, you know, before I went to grad school. Did I tell you about this piece? Maybe. I don't think I've told this on the air. It's stupid, but it involves with knives. It's one of the worst cuts I've ever received in my life. I've received some pretty bad cuts. So, uh, I was very interested in my artwork in uh, kind of um, machines and and kind of false, like spectacle where it looked like you were going to get hurt, but you weren't or like there was danger,
+
+[30:03] but you know, you didn't end up hurting yourself. So I built this little, so I, you know, I built this little kind of machine that was supposed to be a tiny, like, amusement park ride, and you grab this handle with your
+
+[30:14] hand, and as you spin the handle, a razor, like, I built this knife with razor blades all on, like, all real razor
+
+[30:21] blades, and as your knuckle went down, the razor blade would accelerate over the top of your
+
+[30:26] knuckle. So you couldn't like, it was geared, so you couldn't cut your hand, but it accelerated so fast around over your hand that it was like, boom, like, boom, blinding right over your
+
+[30:37] knuckles. And so I would sit there and I would, I would crank it, g, g, g, g, g, with all these gears and it would be, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, these razors right over your hand. It's kind of like freaky, right? So that was the whole thing, this like kind of little mini amusement park ride. So anyhoo, I'm going to, I applied to, actually went to, what got in, went to Columbia University for fine arts as my MFA grad school. So I'm like, you know, I'll bring an art piece with me. So it's I can show them what I do in the, you know, in the interview. And so I'm having this interview, Alan Hacklin, who is, he's an artist and he's the, he's the head of the program at the time. And so I'm talking to him, and you know how it's hard for me sometimes like to talk and do stuff at the same time. Yeah. So I'm talking to him and I had had to disassemble it to take it with me, right? So I'm assembling this thing while I'm talking to him in like pieces everywhere. And because I'm not paying attention, I assemble it, get ready for it, Jack,
+
+[31:28] 180 degrees wrong. Oh, boy. And so what that means is, is that my knuckle is in the high position when the blade is over your
+
+[31:38] hand. And so I'm like, and so you can never cut your... And like the razor blade embeds itself like all the way into my knuckle. I still have the scar and a blood just starts pouring out of my hand all over his desk in the
+
+[31:50] middle of the interview. Well, and I kept on, like, maybe because, like, my reaction was, um, yeah, I
+
+[31:56] pulled like a napkin off of his desk and wrapped it around my knuckle and tried to like keep as much pressure on as possible, blood like seeping out of it all over my lap. Yeah, they let me in. I could finish the interview, kind of scraped the thing under my one arm and like kind of walked out. Anyway. Wow. Yeah. So, okay. Long Island ice team. Let's see what you got, Styles. I got another one too. What's in the long? 2 cups, ice cubes, one ounce vodka, one ounce gin, one ounce
+
+[32:22] white, one ounce white tequila, half ounce triple sack, 2 tablespoons, freshly squeezed lemon juice, half cup cola, 2 lemon wedges.
+
+[32:28] What do you got, Jack? This recipe says sour mix, but I mean, I mean, that's, you know. Then there's the one rich variation. What's his? So one Dritch has a half ounce absolute vodka, half ounce beef eater gin, half ounce donkey white rum, half ounce Malagro, Blanco tequila, half ounce, fresh lemon juice, simple syrup, and, um, wow, you know, this
+
+[32:50] is I wonder if Pineau Ricard paid for that recipe. Those are all for no those are all for no products. Yeah, and I have to ask you something, though. I've never been able to pronounce it's Quantro, right? Okay, good. Yeah. Quanch. The quanch. I love that stuff. You like Quantro? Yeah, yeah. And Coke. You have you have trouble with pronouncing curacao? Not anymore. Well, I mean, look, I pronounce everything wrong. I got a huge argument with my wife just a couple days ago because I was like, I'm, we talked about it on the air. We talked last week we talked about it. I'm going to say coupon. She's like, that's not what it is. Oh, a few weeks ago, yeah. Do you know what she gets really mad at me for? Like, uh, you know the word like uh, opaque? I say, I say it opaque. She's like, it doesn't have 3 freaking syllables. It's a pick. I'm like, no, I say it opaque. And like, I don't care. Like, I don't care. Like, I'll call it chicken if I want. I'm that character, like, you know what I mean? It's like, leave me alone with it. leave me alone. You know what I mean? Wow. Yeah. Well, if these are the only problems you have in a marriage, God bless you, right? Okay. Uh, so, uh, the question about Long Island ST, John from Dallas, and by the way, I tweeted out, do you know I saw J.R. Ewing's uh, hat at the
+
+[34:01] museum, the moving image, which is a fantastic museum, and I, I, I did it on Instagram, but he had, he had a really not that expensive hat for J.R.
+
+[34:12] It was like I like shoved my face against the side of the of the display case.
+
+[34:15] so I could look and see inside the hatband. and it was just a triple X beaver, which is like, you know, like an $80 hat, like a 70 or $80 hat.
+
+[34:24] I have the same hat. But I've remolded, of course, into a planter shape because that's the only shape that I wear. whatever. So, John from Dallas asks, what affects the perception of alcohol in Long Island iced tea? The drink is almost completely liquor. Yet it's famous for tasting nearly non-alcoholic. It doesn't seem like it should work. Uh, well, I haven't had one in a long time, although Tristan, back in the day, used to, and Robbie used to make these carbonated Long Island iced teas,
+
+[34:49] which, uh, they were just doing it for the acronym. But the, the, why it works. I think it has to do with any time that you mix Stas just getting on board. Anytime that you mix a boat ton of stuff together, everything tends to even out.
+
+[35:06] You know what I mean? And you kind of just lose the ability to distinguish anything. So I think it's just the cola is probably watering it down in the lemon and then it's just a poop spray of ingredients. I mean, I think that's the only thing I can think of. I don't think it's a magical list. I think you could rejigger it with almost anything else in it and it'd be fine. I'll tell you what we did once at the bar. I get very, uh, I get kind of pretzled when, you know, the bartenders come up with drinks that have like 35 different ingredients
+
+[35:32] in them. And so, uh, and I've said it on the air a 1000000 times. they call it like shotgun mixing. So I went to the bar once and I literally just went on the back bar and I took the 1st 15
+
+[35:41] liqueurs and I just mixed them all in equal proportions. Just pick them all up, 15 liqueurs, bang. And they're like, yeah, it tastes fine, tastes like cocktail, tastes fine. Like, duh. Because if you mix a bunch of crap together, it just is kind of like uniform cocktail
+
+[35:56] pablum. You know what I'm saying? And so I think something's happening there, the same thing with the with the ice team. Is there anything brown in it? No. Man, that's it. They sticking away. staying away from the brown. Okay. Benjamin Terry wrote in. I'm trying to figure out a vegan vegan. cola. The cola also cuts. Brown. Oh, brown, but not mean liqueur. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out a vegan replacement for egg whites in a cocktail setting. Lately, I've been playing with aquafaba, the chickpea brine, which we have a lot of people who are interested in the chickpea brine. Styles, I know. Rig and chickpea, Brian. And while I haven't noticed too much of a flavor or odor variation, it certainly isn't as frothy as an egg white. I'm mostly using the chickpea water from the falafel place across the street, cold soaked. Would heat change the chemistry and make it frothier. I bet it would. Yes, I would definitely, yeah, 100%. It would also taste more. Any tips for this process or for any other egg white replacements in your experience, I should try. Thanks. Well, most of the egg white replacements I've used actually are not vegan. So like milk washing, um, There are certain ingredients that are inherently frothy. So using those, here's the here's the thing, right? Okay, look, egg whites are doing 2 things in a cocktail. They're providing a texture and a foam froth, but also the proteins in the egg whites are binding with flavors in the cocktail and kind of muting them.
+
+[37:19] So like one of the reasons that an egg white is really good in whiskey sour is because it deadens the kind of tannic nature of the wood in the oak.
+
+[37:29] So there's a flavor thing happening there as well. So if you're going to substitute out. Now you can just go buy, by the way, I don't know if you're against this, you can go buy frothy. The problem with frothy, which is a cocktail frother. And I think it's, I don't remember whether it's propylene glycolalgenate or just propylene glycol, but with some
+
+[37:46] emulsifiers, is that they also add the stupidly add flavor to it, like citric acid and like fake lemon
+
+[37:52] flavor. don't know why the hell you would do that. Like, just sell me the freaking froth. You know what I mean, Stas? Don't sell me the froth plus some other BS. Just send me the froth. But I'm sure someone makes one that just has the froth in it. Um, but, you know, that adds the, the foam, but I don't think it's gonna, I don't think it's going to do that flavor change thing for you. Now, anytime you are going to put a foam on something, a lot of what times what people want to do is they want to add a stabilizer.
+
+[38:16] So like your chickpea thing probably has some stabilizing stuff in it. I've tried various cocktails with Xanthan as a stabilizer. It's not a whipping agent. You still need a whipping agent, something like a pineapple juice or a cucumber juice or
+
+[38:28] versa whip or anything that has kind of a whipping ability to
+
+[38:33] it. But a little bit of xanthan can stabilize the foam so that it lasts longer. Um, Problem is, is that remember we did that test with all those Xanthans, and you could kind of taste it. It was kind of like, let that be kind of... Don't remember that. Yeah. Anyway. Uh, so I don't have anything, uh, 100%, but try the frothy. I'll try to think about it more. Anyone on the on the webinots on our chat room there can crank in on it too. Okay. So what should we talk about in the few minutes we have left? Should we talk about the patent? Should I have got flowers on Florage? I just wanted to double check with him and he hasn't written me back. All right, so we'll talk about it next time then. But we got the patent in working on the centrifuge, hard, as hard, as hard, as hard. Um, it's uh, it's a long road. Once we, once I can talk about the patent, I'll talk about because someone asked me, what's it like to try to make a product in China? And I can talk about it. Did I say China like Trump? Did I just do it? Did I just use Trump's accent when I say China? China? China? Uh, he has a weird, weird way of saying China, right? China. very strange. Um, I'll talk about when that gets back. All right, so then, did you have any questions from last week? I need to hit or should I hit this other one? Um, you had one about, Did you talk about the pineapple and the series, all pineapple drinks? Here's all the guy wanted you to acknowledge? No, it's nothing. it's not a question. Oh, all right. YouTube videos. Oh, all right. Well, what's who was it? When we say go look at their YouTube video of pineapple. I like it, I like that. I like pineapple Alex here. While you're looking for that, I will read this. My wife works as an assistant winemaker and is planning a blind tasting of wines doped,
+
+[40:13] doped, with different floral components to taste through with a group of winemakers where she works.
+
+[40:18] We have done, by the way, we're doing a centrifuge teaching seminar today, right? You are doing that today. Yeah. Look, when we talk about the patent, I'll do a little bit about how centrifuges
+
+[40:29] work and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. We have done similar experiments with fruits and herbs, and it is fairly herbs, and it is fairly straightforward to extract the
+
+[40:38] characteristics. However flowers are more of a challenge. There are issues getting all the flowers fresh, extracting floral aromatics versus the green
+
+[40:44] character, among other concerns. Yeah, so that people like pick the calaxes off of flowers. Dealing with flowers is a pain in the behind. I don't have the list of flowers at present, but I'm sure it includes jasmine honeysuckle
+
+[40:56] violets, roses, et cetera. Are there specific, are there specific methods for making extracts or central oils that are food safe and can be added into wine directly and are stable for weeks to
+
+[41:04] months? This would make finding all of the flowers fresh at the same time less of an issue. If so, what would be the preferred liquid to perform our own extractions that we can later add to wine. Okay, from Bobby. So, I would definitely get in touch with Mandy Aftel, the perfumer, because she deals with this kind of stuff all the time, but in general, flower essence,
+
+[41:25] flower essence is, to me, they don't really, they're not necessarily the same as the actual flower
+
+[41:30] itself. Sometimes they're pretty close, right? Like Rose, like Rose, Rose can be pretty close. Uh, but you don't want to do a straight extraction into most of the
+
+[41:39] time, if you try to do a straight extraction of a flour directly into alcohol, it gets that disgusting soaked flour flavor.
+
+[41:47] You know what I'm talking about, says? That grows soaked flour flavor. So typically the kind of essence is
+
+[41:53] made in one of several ways, but steam distillation is the easiest, kind of the cheapest way to do it, but a lot of
+
+[41:59] flour aromas are, and then they're fixed in alcohol or other things. And you can get them and they're stable and you can get them food grade. I mean, some flowers are po- some, not sunflowers. Some flowers are poisonous, and so you should stay away from them. Remember we were going to put some poisonous flour into a drink and I was like, come on, it's a little bit okay? And they're like, no, really poisonous. No, kill you. Some iris variant. No. Wasn't it you that we were looking to sell? Yeah. Anyway. But some flowers can't be done that way. So like the hardest one is like tuberos is really difficult to do distillations because the flavor breaks
+
+[42:33] down. Now, we used to do tubros in the roto app. Remember, Stas, that was a pain in the behind. We would rotovap the tuberos because it was all at a low temperature, so it wouldn't break down. Do you like tubros? That's the one that grows on the beach. Uh, no, it's the one that they make Hawaiian lays out of, and it's got that, like, a rome. hard to do. Anyway. The classic way to do flowers that are difficult to do via distillation is a technique. Sam Mason used to play around a little bit with, but, and, you know, but it kind of got superseded by fat washing in general, but is
+
+[43:02] an enfourage. And so when was that movie styles about the perfume guy with the enfleurage where he was like, there's his perfume, yeah. Yeah? This is called perfume? What was he doing? Killing people and getting their aromas? What was he doing? Yeah, that was it, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, the way on Florage works is that it's labor intensive is that you take
+
+[43:20] the the aromatics and the flowers are soluble in fat. So what they do is they take typically for these. They take a solid fat, spread it on glass plates, and then put the flowers onto the glass
+
+[43:30] plates, and then stack the glass plates up so that the aromas are just constantly wafting in
+
+[43:35] these in these crates of glass plates through the fat.
+
+[43:39] And then, like, after a specific amount of time, like a while. They'll rip the old flowers off, slap another layer of flowers onto them, and basically get these like hyper aromatic flour fat things. the reason you leave in there for a long time is that the flowers, you pick the calyx off, by the way, the green part. So it doesn't have those green things, aromas. The flower keeps on making aromas until it starts to break down. And so the flower, like the, rather than just getting like a, like a couple of minutes or a couple, you get like a long period of the flour producing these aromas that you absorb into the fat, then you wash the fat with very high proof ethanol to take the flavors out of the fat, but you're not pulling any of the weird, bitter, crappy stuff out of the flowers because you've already removed the flowers from the equation by the time you put the alcohol
+
+[44:23] in. And that is how Amfolorage works, and that's the way I would go. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[44:42] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Thurman Maple Days. celebrate flowing of sap in the Adirondacks, self-guiding to 7 sites for talks, tours, tastes, and old-fashioned friendliness. For more information, visit Thurman Mapledays.com. I'm Linda Pelacio, host of a taste of the past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live at noon, actually, Stas. What do you think about that? Crazy. The Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting from Abertus Pizzeria, where, Jack? Bushwick. Brooklyn. Oh, yeah. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. And Jack Jackie molecules. 's up? doing well. Good, good. We are going to be joined shortly by the late arriver, I guess, is like, you know, planning on my usual arrival time. Peter Kim. you know. He got a different name for him before the show started. was it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Family show, Jack. Family show. Call in your questions 2 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. So Stas, on the magnificent L train on the way over here today. I was on that. Yeah? Just the one that just got on it? No, no. The one before me? Anyways, I'm never on the L train to get here. Anyways, dude had so much ketchup on his face. like just ketchup all over his face. And I'm like, dude. Like, a little bit of ketchup, like on your cheek, like, all right, fine, whatever. Well, no, that's the thing. He had done eating. He wasn't one of these freaks in the subway, like jamming his face full of like pot pie or something. But he had like, it was like he had taken a fistful of
+
+[1:57] French fries, gone in the ketchup, and then like shoved it into his face and got it all over his face. But here's the
+
+[2:03] thing. You, if you have that much ketchup on your face, you can smell it, you can
+
+[2:10] smell, you're like, why do I, why do I still smell ketchup? You know what I mean? What a horrible thing to have on your face too. Yeah, just like a just a botonic ketchup. Crazy. not right I have a collar on if you want to get right to it. No, let's get right to it. get right into business. Caller, you are on the air. Hey, David, it's Judah from Silver Spring, Maryland. are you? Doing all right. So question for you. You know how in liquid intelligence you have kind of that shopping list. Excuse me, that shopping list and it's like grouped together by. Oh, did we lose you? Oh, I got to ask. I do know the shopping list. I'm familiar with the shopping list. I was thinking about this also. You still there? Maybe maybe... Oh yeah, you're back? Yeah, yeah, the shopping list. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So, um, you know, that that list that you have where it's kind of grouped into like this, these are your necessities, this is if you have a little bit more money and this is if you want to go crazy. Right. Um, so, say you were doing the same thing for a commercial kitchen, think for like a deli. Um, you know, how, how, how might you group that? Okay, well, what kind of deli? What are you serving? So, uh, we're going to be doing everything in house except for baking bread, uh, but you know, um, cooking roasts from scratch. Uh, you know, making some prepared meals like soups and stews, some basic catering also,
+
+[3:33] but uh, you know, nothing too fancy, at least at the outset. I'm trying to look to how I can bootstrap it as much as possible. Um, you know, uh, thinking uh, if, if I switch to induction, does it require the use of a hood, you know, that, that sort of thing. So really trying to be creative with our expenses there. Right. Well, you can definitely, I mean, I don't know what you're venting acquirements are,
+
+[3:55] but, uh, you know, the situation rather, but you can definitely reduce
+
+[3:59] your, your, the CFMs or the venting you need by going induction. I know a lot of people also who just basically cheat and they do their hot side on
+
+[4:08] induction and then take it away when they're not using it. And that's totally viable. You know what I mean? It all depends on what you can get away with in your locale. But, you know, if you're going to do traditional, any traditional deli stuff, I would invest in the sweetest slicers that you could possibly
+
+[4:26] get, right? And so like, what kind of slice are you getting? So, so it's, I'm buying a company that's already existing, but I'm trying to think of
+
+[4:36] it, like, this place is so mismanaged. I have to think how would I would how I would start from scratch. So they have like a, the guy told me to have like a 70 year old Hobart slicer, which is, you know, just on an angle. Um, yeah. Okay, now, look, a lot. So let's just take the slice because to me, like the heart, and this is kind of pathetic the way I think, but the heart of like a deli operation is like your slicer,
+
+[4:58] right? Uh, slicers, uh, obviously, you know, I don't know how long you have to deal with the one that you currently have, but the issue with the angle
+
+[5:10] or gravity feed slicer, which is, you know, the American standard for slicers, um, is that regardless of, you know, how sharp you keep the blade, uh, you're going to get some toe out on the, uh, you know, some healing out on the bottom of the meat
+
+[5:28] as you cut. And you know what I'm talking about that. Yeah. And that's just the nature of the beast when you're using a gravity fed slicer. Now, you know, what does that really mean? It means that you have to like take it off or rotate it as you slice or take it off and take that little heel piece off and it's
+
+[5:48] unpleasant. Is that like a life ender? No. But if you were curing your own meats and like, you know, you really cared about it and you're dealing with high value stuff, you don't want that
+
+[5:56] to happen. Now, the modern gravity slicers are a lot better in that respect because they require a lot more down pressure
+
+[6:05] than some of the older ones do. And, you know, you know, the, you know, my favorite. Uh, you know, that, you know, the, you know, the old, um, um, the
+
+[6:16] Model 3000, the, you know, the newer, the Hobart Model 3000, which is like, was like such a pimped out machine. Like that did a very good job on thin slices. The bazerba, you know, which was before that other one, the one that, and by the way, I'm a couple
+
+[6:30] years behind, like three, 4 years it's been since I really worried about slicers. Um, you know, was was the best. But, you know, if you're going to do a high-end presentation deli kind of a situation, eventually you might want to get a vertical, like to, because a vertical slicer, A, looks freaking awesome, and B, like doesn't have any of that distortion on the slices it goes through. That said, the only people I know who use them are like, you know, the people trying to do like the high-end Italian
+
+[6:58] style kind of service, you know, who don't want to do hand slicing.
+
+[7:03] Um, so I don't, and I don't have a lot of personal experience with them. But the good thing about like the newer slicers is I would look, the reason I like the 3000 is the just the ease of cleaning on it too. Like it's got like, it's got that like hydraulic lift that you can lift up the slicer and clean underneath
+
+[7:21] it. You could pop the blade off and throw it in a dishwasher, which is sweet. I hate cleaning slicers. I gotta tell you, I do not like cleaning them. Yeah, I got a really nasty cut one year. doing that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, obviously, I'm not even going to get it because I don't know the layout, but like refrigeration is going to be huge on you, like getting like good cases because you're going to throw a lot of money into electricity on those cases over time.
+
+[7:46] And so even though like an old set of refrigerator cases might seem like a good bargain right now,
+
+[7:51] A, like they might break on you more of. I've said this before, I hate commercial refrigeration. I really do. But, like, you know, uh, good refrigeration setup, um, you know, it's not going to go down. And I don't know who's got the best one right now. But, you know, those are like the heart, right? So you got your refrigeration setup. You got your slicer. Then, um, on your cooking side stuff. I would definitely invest in, um, in a couple, especially if you're not
+
+[8:19] going to do, you're not, you said you're not going to do a lot of hot side right away, right? Right. Yeah, just get some get some decent induction ones. Like, um, you know, there's actually, you know, it's interesting. They, uh, uh, Breville, is that semi-commercial, semi-pro, like, uh, Philip Preston from poly-science, did some work with a new temperature controlled induction unit that's supposed to be pretty
+
+[8:41] good. at least he tells me so, um, that I think is, I'm going to say it's right in between the consumer in the pro range. Uh, but it could be good for swapping uh, in and out. Otherwise, most people I know use, you know, the big old cook techs. You know what I mean? But they're not, they're they're pretty expensive. Whereas most of the other, you know, the smaller induction ones, the cheap ones, you can get away with them fine for a while, but they're not necessarily the best long term because they have a fairly small heat ring, so you can get some
+
+[9:15] scorching. If you're doing, you know, work that requires like saute or anything like that, they can fuzz out on you over time if you're using them hard and intensively.
+
+[9:27] But on the other hand, they're cheap like potato chips. You know what I mean? They're like a couple 100 bucks, so you can like rip through them, you know, as you as you as you need
+
+[9:35] to. What else am I? I mean, if you're going to do catering, I would get a vacuum bag. I would get a vacuum machine, and if you're going to get a vacuum machine,
+
+[9:43] in your setup, I would not go for the smallest one. I don't think you need to get a really big one unless you're going to be vacuing down. Maybe you are. Maybe you're going to be backing down like whole roast doing a pre-circ on them and then a roast out later in an oven. I don't know. You know, that's something you should kind of look forward to because that's another large investment, a vacuum machine. You got to probably need a haset plant as well for it. But, um, that's definitely going to be useful both in a catering application uh, for takeaway
+
+[10:13] later, and also if you ever, and go to um, the underground meat collective section on their hasset because they do, they do vacuum for takeaway. So then if you're going to make your own products, do a slice down and a
+
+[10:24] vac pack out so that you can push, you don't want to have to do all of your heavy slicing necessarily to order on something when you want to grab and
+
+[10:32] go and you might want to be able to prepackage something, in which case you're going to need a decent vacuum machine.
+
+[10:36] Right, right. So I was just looking at the, you know, the mini pack lines. Um, and the, uh, I think it was the, the XT 45, um, or the MBS 45, Uh, you know, I was trying to figure out, like, if that would be too big or if I could get away with something smaller, but you're saying, don't, don't go for the smallest thing. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no. No, yeah, yeah, the 45 is the smallest one for your application that I think I would
+
+[11:00] go. That's the same size as the, uh, as on the, um, multivac, that's the same size, I think as what, the 200. It's been a long time since I've shot. But yeah, that's the that's the smallest one that I would go for because you know what? Like, do you really want to be in a situation where, you know, you
+
+[11:17] saved because the price difference is not that big, right? And the size is not that much different. And do you really want in 6 months time to say, I wish I could pack that
+
+[11:25] down? No. You don't. Right. You know, what I used to recommend. Also, a lot depends on what you're going to do. So, uh, you know, I had the the pleasure of having a dual uh, dual bar setup in both machines that I was using, right? And the advantage of the dual bar having 2 bars in it is that you can seal 2 packages at once. And that becomes a really big deal if you are going to do packaging down of stuff
+
+[11:53] for, um, for sale, not just for like storage at the end of the night, but because like let's say your vacuum cycle time is like 40 seconds, 35, 30, somewhere between 30 and 40 seconds, you know, in between each cycle,
+
+[12:08] right? Which it could easily be. It could be longer, even, depending on what you're doing. So, uh, by having 2 bars where you can steal 2 packages at once,
+
+[12:18] uh, you know, across from each other, you're you're cutting your packaging time in half. And if you've ever gone on a big packaging marathon where you're packaging package after package after package,
+
+[12:30] uh, then, you know, it can be significant. The savings can be significant for not a not a huge initial extra investment. Got it And here's the thing. People are like, the bar, it takes up the extra bar, it takes up so much space, and the fact that's crap, because you can just rip the bar out when you're not using it. I've done it a 1000000000 times. You just rip the bar out when you're not using it, and then you have the full space where the other bar used to be. You know what I mean? For someone like you, I don't know that gas flush is going to be so important, you know, I don't know. Like, um, I don't know that many people who use it all the time, but anyway, there you have it. All right, we had another caller who's been waiting. Oh, wait, wait, wait. If you have any more questions, give us a call back. All right. Call her. on the air. How you doing? I'm doing very well. How are you today? doing well. Um, so I got any questions for you. I fluted the park next in when I'm doing things at home where I didn't write down exactly what I had done to get a result.
+
+[13:27] Right. But I think I have this one pretty much nailed on. So, um, uh, I'm a bartender and I used a recipe from Keller's uh, French laundry for one of the
+
+[13:38] syrups that we use at the bar. Um, I used to, uh, top cherry pepper shirt, which is, uh, top
+
+[13:43] cherry, black peppercorns, raspberries, uh, strawberries, sugar, water, um, and then he kind of poaches it. Uh for 45 minutes to keep it from getting cloudy. Um, the ratio that he uses are going to be, he uses a pine of raspberries, pine strawberries, a couple of water, 3 quarter cup sugar, which isn't going to be nearly enough
+
+[14:02] sugar to get to a, um, uh, a 50 brick symbol. So, I mean, I've got to refry theometer. Um, Kind of, I was, when I was the 1st time I made it, I just kind of was like, throw some water in there, I'll just correct it whenever I'm
+
+[14:17] done, and whenever it came out, I had developed a whole bunch of peppin in the syrup. So when I was blending it to get more sugar into it, the correct
+
+[14:26] brick, um, it created this really amazing stable foam on top. Um, that's super, super delicious. Um, and then the 2nd time I did it, it, the foam wasn't stable. So what I'm thinking is that, um, I think what happened is I just developed, developed more
+
+[14:43] pective the 1st time I did it. and I want to call you and ask you what kind of are the ideal conditions for developing packed in in fruits whenever you're making
+
+[14:53] it sort of like that. Right. Oh, and I'm sorry, real quick. The way that I do it is the, like a double boiler method. So I put all my ingredients in the, um, mixing bowl over boiling hot
+
+[15:03] water, just keep that hot food pushes and has no chance of boiling. Right. So what you want is like basically, um, not fully gelled, obviously, but like semi, right? So like the problem with that and impectin is like, you know, getting the ratio is exactly right each time to make
+
+[15:21] it to make it right. Now in general, right? pecked in, uh, the, will form gels, uh, in situations where they're, uh, is a high soluble solids,
+
+[15:34] right? So lower water and usually typically a lot of sugar. That's why a lot of times when people try to make jellies and they're like, oh, my jelly didn't set, it's because they don't have enough sugar in it, right? And the other thing is acid, right? So like maybe the batch that had the good pectin development was a little more acidic than normal, right?
+
+[15:54] And then you doped it with extra sugar. So then you have a high sugar, high, high acid situation. Pectin loves that. You know what I mean? And so typically, you know,
+
+[16:07] you can have, like, ionic reactions as well, but I think typically you're going to just look for high soluble solids and, um, not
+
+[16:16] my brain. High soluble solids and acid conditions. And that's gonna, you know, increase the set characteristics of your of your pectin. But that said, like, wacky things happen with fresh fruit, and you never know, like, if you got like a really good result, it's like super hard to duplicate it.
+
+[16:35] Right. Um, I was using frozen raspberries and fresh strawberries whenever I did it. Yeah, I think that should affect it much. Like, freezing. Could be wrong, though. I often am. So what you're saying is just add a little bit of acid, like either lemon juice or just citric acid or something, then that should help correct it. Well, I think once it's done, once it's cooked out, it's like, you know, it's probably cooked out. You didn't write down the exact ratios you did that time. No, that's what we're talking about, just Cardinal Sin. Yeah, I mean, look, I told you, I've said it on the on the air. Like, you know, there's recipes that I've never been able to achieve again, ever. But a lot of these recipes with, especially recipes that rely on hydrocolloids. Like a lot of them are on a razor thin edge. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like, and the problem with those is you could be chasing unicorns, right? So, you know, let's say, let's say the syrup that you did, even if you measured it exactly. Let's say you're talking about a one in a 100 shot. Well, you can't you can't do you can't do a recipe based on a one in a 100 shot. You know what I mean? Um, you know, so you might want to think about uh, just, you know, doping, doping it with some uh, foaming age. I mean, strawberry is pretty foamy anyway. Like, even, um, you know, clarify, clarify, regular clarified strawberry is pretty foamy. So, um, yeah, strawberry soda foams like a mother. So does raspberry soda, really. You know, even when I hit it with Pectinex. So it's, um, Yeah, but getting it exactly the way you want it. I would consider just doping it with some, you know, some whipping agent and some, uh, I haven't, I've been looking into it. In fact, someone else asked last week about vegan egg replacers, and then I had I had a comment back in on the, on the, you know, HMC additives. There got to be a good thing just to add to make it happen because you don't want to rely. You don't want to rely on having to get something exactly right every time that
+
+[18:40] is like on such a like a fine teeter totter. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. I didn't realize that getting pet development would be that kind of a razor edge. Well, because you don't want it fully gelled. You want something in between. In between things are always the hardest. By the way, you, the recipe that Keller has, has you cooking the peppercorns for 40 minutes? Or do you throw? See, here's the thing. So like Jeffrey Steingarden, you know, friend of the show, friend and friend of mine, he once lambasted me. Lambasted me for putting pepper into things early because he's like, when you cook
+
+[19:14] pepper that, he doesn't talk to this. When you cook pepper that long, it's like all that's left is the is the bitterness. None of the aroma, the pepper. I'm like, you know, so what? Like, I still like to add pepper early because I kind of like that like harsh bitterness from the pepper. But if you considered like almost like dry hopping, like after the cook, like putting some grounds of pepper in, right as you take it
+
+[19:34] off and then to get some sit, let's sit with the aroma in and then stranding it off to get more of that fresh pepper
+
+[19:39] aroma. Because if you noticed that, um, the aroma of the pepper changes and drops off and loses a lot of its kind of like, uh, you know, interesting characteristics, especially if he's going to go all the way
+
+[19:52] to like specify Telicherry over a different variety of pepper. I don't know why he's hating. don't know why he's hating on the Malabar. I was like, you know what? That's the thing, Stas. Remember we did all those pepper tastings back in the day. Stas has her, I hate pepper tasting face. You don't like pepper on butter? was just boring. Everything, everything that requires sitting and like doing you hate. You hate. Anyways. Uh, point being that uh, other peppers are also good. I know Telicherry's got the got the name. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, like we do a pepper tincture. You know what my favorite thing to add to any pepper tincture is? Cubebs. just going to say it right there. Cubebs. Go? Have you have you played with cubebs? I have not. I have a pink peppercorn tincture that we use at the bar. put it in an atomizer and use that to kind of like a rentry inside of a glass, it's awesome. No. Anyway, that's my, that's my, that's my pepper go to of the, you know, because we, you know, I'll do a pepper
+
+[20:45] tincture and I'll throw in because you always have all those pepper like things sitting around, right? So you got like a couple different black peppers. Like, typically the 2 that I'm using are the Malabar and the Telicherry, and I forget the 3rd one. We sometimes use some other ones, but those are the main 2 that I'm using. And you always have a little bit of the grains of paradise, although that's a very strong flavor. I sometimes have a little bit of the long pepper, which, strangely, even though it's not really, it's nowhere near the same flavor, the Romans, like, used interchangeably with black
+
+[21:15] pepper, according to the research that I have, and cubebs. And some combination of all those can make really interesting kind of peppery aromas. Awesome. Thank you so much. I play around with that. Cool. Thanks. All right. So, hey, Jack. He's not there. Oh, he's not there. So the maple syrup, guys, you can take a maple syrup tour, huh? There are our sponsors today. Yes, that's true. What do you think about that? What do you think about the maple syrup tour? I think it sounds great. Their whole thing is they're like, you know, maple syrup is more than just a condiment for pancakes. So they're like, you get to tour the sugar shacks and they show you all these other products that they make with maple, like candies and things like that. Sugar Shack sounds vaguely like, you know, like some other stuff's going to happen in there, don't you think? It's a family show. don't know. Yeah, yeah. anyway, my point is, I was thinking about this the other day. And I'm such a jerk about it, but like, I have not noticed any huge terroir
+
+[22:12] phenomenon in maple syrup. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I've had maple syrup from Connecticut. You know what it tastes like? Maple syrup. Yeah. You know, Vermont, you know, Vermont, maple syrup tastes like? Well, have you ever done a tasting? Like a side by side? I'm saying, I think we should. I think we should get these guys to send it in and do like a side by set. Now, listen, the like, there's a huge difference between the different grades of maple syrup and like early season versus late season, right? Because the earlier in the season, the clearer it runs, that's where you're getting your lighter
+
+[22:40] syrups, and as the season goes on, it gets darker and darker until you get to the point where you get all this metallic taste that even like below grade B,
+
+[22:48] right? Which are even too strong for me. Like, I'm a solid B guy. I like B for eating. I like beef or cooking. Like, I like beef. You know what I mean? But, um, But it seems to me those
+
+[23:00] effects, like swamp, like any sort of, like, locale effect. You know what I mean? What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I want someone to see. We gonna have to do this. We need someone to send in a tasting. You know what else I've really always wanted to do? Always want to do. I've always wanted to get a bunch of maple sap and then concentrated in a roto app. We'll try to make it happen. Right? To see, like, I want to know how much of the characteristic mapleness is, because of the cooking itself versus just the extraction of water.
+
+[23:35] Do you know what I'm saying? I'm sure someone out there has done evaporative boiling on this without heating it, but... Sorry, I got to call her here. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, it's Chris from Green zone. Hey, what's up? Hey, got a throw up question, actually. Oh, nice. I haven't had a chance to look at the at the video yet. I heard you sent it to Jack, but I haven't seen the link yet on the coffee. Yeah, no worries. I just wanted to know what your go-to method for gum Arabic is because I couldn't actually find one on liquid intelligence. Dump syrup, I should say. Yeah, I don't use it that often is why is why it's not in there. I did a bunch of tests once where I, you know, we did the heavy gum
+
+[24:11] syrups and then tried to see how much of a difference it made, and our impression was that, you know, we didn't love it enough
+
+[24:22] to like, it wasn't one of those things where I'm like, my life has changed. And so now I'm going to do it, which is why it's not in there. The gum Arabic I typically use is fairly, uh, you know, uh, tweaked out, like, you know, from
+
+[24:34] like uh, tickoloid, those guys. So I use it mainly as a suspense, as an emulsion, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm using it. Yeah, I'm using it that way as well, also, you know, in methods that I got from your book, but as far as the pure gum syrup, I was just kind of
+
+[24:47] curious. Yeah, Wonderridge has a bunch. Dave Wondridge has some gum syrup recipes he published. Uh, I think, uh, either, it's either it's in and vibe or it was one of the esquire things he wrote about
+
+[24:59] it because I know he's a proponent of gum syrup, but, you know, that the interesting thing about gum Arabic is that you can put a preposterous amount of it into solution, right?
+
+[25:08] I mean, that's the kind of thing about it. It's like very, very high percentages of gum Arabic. Um, you know, don't form an extremely viscous solution. And it's because, um, gum Arabic, uh, is, you know, it's not a long chain polymers, not the way it works. In your in your opinion, what do you think is a high proportion? Oh, well, I don't like, like, I, like, I say, like, I, like, I don't do it, so I don't even think, but, like, over, like, you can easily do like 10%, I think. I have never done it that high. Stas, remember we ran those tests? You didn't really like it either, right? No. Um, no, I don't really. I never really liked it. That's the thing. I think a lot of people also buy kind of like crap grades of gum Arabic and like they can
+
+[25:57] have, you know, different kind of tastes and they're kind of dark. The stuff that I use is powdered and pure white. Yeah, that's what I have. Yeah. And so, you know, look, here's what I think. Like, uh, you know, use warm, use a hot, hot water, right? blend it in, hydrate that sucker. Um, I don't know whether mine is special that you don't have to heat it. like whether the stuff that I use is special because I can't remember, but hot water is always going to make it easier, right? Blend the hell out of it, get it, get it, then add your sugar to it. But start with a ridiculously high rate. This way, you can kind of see what happens when you go overboard. I always like to start with something ridiculous. You know what I mean? Yeah, but I've actually followed Jeff Morgenthaler's recipe, which is like 6 parts sugar. It's a one part, uh, gum to 2 parts water and it's just this ridiculous sludge. Yeah, well, okay. So how does the recipe made? Tell me the steps. So he's, well, I saw one thing online that said you can blend it and you don't have to wait, but Morgenthaler
+
+[26:59] said, do one part, gum, one part water, let it sit overnight. It'll hydrate itself, and basically you just stir that into simple syrup, but he's using a 3 to one sugar to water ratio. Three part sugar, one part water? No, no, no. No, no, no. must be a misprint. Three parts sugar, one part water? Yeah. No. It's on his, it's uh, it's on imbibe because they took it from the book and it's in the book and, you know, I don't know if this is a
+
+[27:31] mistake. But yeah, this stuff is like super thick. No, there's no way. It would definitely not come out of a poor bottle. I would have to like spoon it into a drink. Well, I'd have to calculate the bricks on that. Three parts. Well, we could do it, right? So it's it's 70 something bricks? I guess, right? Yeah. 75 bricks. So, like, think about this way. Honey is 82, right? And honey is completely inverted. If honey was had any sucrose remaining in it, right? It would crystallize instantly, right? So you can't you can't have sucrose mixtures at that high at
+
+[28:11] break. I mean, really, anything over above 6668 is going to start throwing crystals off. So it's going to be difficult. You could boil it to get it in. Does he boil it to get it in solution? No, I blended it. Wow. Yeah, I would imagine that that would be hard. Yeah, I mean, I guess the point of the gum is that it keeps it from crystallizing. Huh. I guess, but it's still going to be. mean, think about it. It's going to be thick. Oh yeah, it's super thick. mean, think about it this way, right? Maple syrup is around 66 bricks. You know how that pours, right? You're adding a small amount of hydro to it, which maybe it does stop crystallizing. That's a good point, right? But the difference between 66 and 82, right, is not that much when
+
+[28:59] you think about how much water is, and that's the difference between maple syrup and freaking honey. I gotta jump in. The chat room is going nuts. It's 2 to one. Two to one. That makes a lot more sense. Two to one would work. sugar to water. That's what I guess the chat room is. what they're saying, yeah. 66 waters, 3 sugar, one gum. Now that would work. Hold on, let me look up. would definitely work. Because 3 is bonkers. I don't even know that I could get it. could get it dissolved only with heat. But while we're going on this, some tricks. If you're having trouble getting your gum Arabic into solution, remember, any hydrocolloid wants to go into
+
+[29:36] water, if at all possible. So you want to you want to add the hydro before you add the sugar. The exception to that is you can dry blend your hydrocolloid with some of the sugar, right? So you can like blend, uh, you can blend, you know, uh, equal
+
+[29:54] parts gum Arabic and sugar, and what you're doing there is just helping the gum Arabic particles stay separate from each other to help them hydrate.
+
+[30:01] So that's a time order technique. But you don't need to freaking do that. If you have a vitaprep, you can just... You know? Yeah, so by the way, I'm looking at the book. And it's, it is 2 to one, if you consider that the water
+
+[30:14] that's already in the gum mixture. Oh, I see. So he says 2 ounces gum Arabic, hydrate was 2 ounces of water, and then 12 ounces of sugar mixed with 4 ounces of water. That's a lot of gum Arabic. And plus, yeah, you're using the, yeah. I don't really, I don't really like, what is a purported benefit? Does anyone in the chat room say that they love this stuff, that they use it every day? that it's the only syrup that they ever use, that this is like the love of their freaking life. Well, I'm using it at the bar tonight, so we're going to find out. Yeah, it's just like, you know what? Here's the other thing, too. Like, what are you using it in? Like, a lot of times people would use these gum syrups for, like, freaking, like,
+
+[30:51] stirred and built drinks? Why? They just don't, especially like a hybric syrup like that doesn't dissolve in well Are you shaking with it? What are you doing with it? You know what I'm saying? If you're shaking with it, there's no freaking point. I don't see that much of a point in going that high of a bricks because you're shaking. You're going to get all this extra dilution anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? Uh, so you're, you know, the, the, the reason, for instance, to go back to a completely different
+
+[31:13] argument, has nothing to do with this. The old-fashioned argument, there's all these people who like to make old-fashioned with sugar, right? And the idea there is that you are, um, not adding the extra water from the
+
+[31:27] syrup, and all that means is, is that you want that 1st sip to be preposterously boozy, right? I mean, that's really all that means. Most people I know, like a couple of, even with syrup, like a
+
+[31:43] couple, and it's only a tiny bit anyway, let's be honest. A couple of stirs of the spoon anyway, before they start drinking it. Most people, except for hardcore, you know,
+
+[31:52] booze hounds, and I know Plenty, right? Yes, so do I. want like a couple of spins of the spoon. Anyway, let us know what happens with the syrup. Jack, is anyone on the chat line say that they love, love, love it? Let's see Uh, no. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's one of those. We have a few no's. It's funny to use it in actually a shake and
+
+[32:12] drink where I want a fair amount of viscosity and body. Yeah but it doesn't add a lot of viscosity. That's the thing. That's why I don't get it. Like it's a really good emulsifier, right? Like if you were going to make a citrus syrup or any of these other things, like it's a really good emulsifier to keep things like citrus oils suspended. Or if you're going to have any. Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? But like, I just don't get it. I don't get it as a texturizer because I think other things do that better. It's in its main characteristic is that it can go in high proportion without becoming too viscous and it's great emulsifier, but it's not really a foaming agent,
+
+[32:48] do you know? Yeah. I mean, I'm going to be shaking it up with milk and so that'll certainly help, I think. Yeah, I mean, maybe it has interaction with milk. I don't know. I don't know. It just one of those things. I think it's one of those things that people do because they used to do it back in the old days. And like maybe there was some reason to do it back in the old days. Like, I don't know, maybe crystal inhibition. I don't know, I don't know what. But I just don't, I don't love it. Cool. Well, I'll try it out tonight and later know how it goes. All right. Good luck. Okay. This in... I do have another call. All right, call her, call her, call her. on the air. Hey, how's it going? Anton from Boca. Hey, what's up? I was going, hey, I'm going to Japan on Thursday. I'm here for 3 weeks. Uh, I wanted to see, uh, if there's any place I can get an A GMH fish at all. I also wanted to know any other recommendations to places going to. Is he going to Tokyo? Yeah. Okay. So I would definitely, um, I would definitely see if you could get a tour
+
+[33:51] of uh, ski market, like Stas and I went on this awesome tour there, but we had like, we
+
+[33:58] got, we got, you have to meet up with someone, right? Like, we can't just tour it anymore. I don't know. Like, are you going as part of a, for business or are you just going? Just going, pleasure. I believe I'm going to the tour of the market the 2nd day I'm there. Yes, 2nd day. So that that there is life changing, right? And like, I don't know, like, if you speak or have someone translating, but let them know in advance what you kind of want to see.
+
+[34:24] Because everyone is like, oh, well, you know, someone's coming to the market, they want to see the tuna
+
+[34:30] auction, and that's great. That's fine, awesome. But, like, you want to see people doing, uh, like the different techniques, like, like, like fish butchering, um, you know,
+
+[34:41] Ikigime, which you can all see there. So if you just let like your, the tour guide or the host know what it is you want to see, you know, um,
+
+[34:48] they'll, they'll probably um, show you. So, you know, then what time of year is it? Is it spring yet over there? Is it Hamo yet? When we were there, what time of year were we there, Stas? It was a little later, right? It was all that freaking hummo, all that, like, all that bone with the crunchy... That's the thing. Everything's seasonal. So it depends on what's in season right now is what you're going to get a whole boatload of. Anything you remember like particular places? What was the one that Mark went to that he loves so much? He said it was the best place he's ever been. Oh, man. When are you going? Two weeks? I'm leaving Thursday. Thursday. Go to the chat. People should call in on the chat room and see who's good or like, you know, uh, you know, we have some, we have some crew over in Japan right now. They should give you some recommendations on our chat room. We'll go to see. But all I'm saying is, is that I would be very clear what it is that you're interested in seeing when you go like on a food tour or anything like this because I think in general, like people who listen to this show have a different set of interest
+
+[35:51] and the average tourist Jackweed who shows up somewhere. And I think that in general, people like cater tours, even of things like the fish market to what the average Jackweed wants. Got to go with jackweed, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. And well, dude, it's not like you, Jack. It's like...
+
+[36:13] But, uh, I don't also know what the current exchange rate is, but like have someone take you to like the knife shops. I would go to the, uh, do you remember the name of the street stars with the big with the chef hat dude on it? There's a there's one street, and I want to say it's Kobayashi, but I made that up because it's like a Star Trek reference or something like
+
+[36:32] that. But, like, go, go to that street and, like, check out I love, absolutely love, um, seeing, uh, kitchen, like commercial kitchen equipment, uh, districts in different countries. Every country I go, I try to go to market and to like a
+
+[36:49] commercial, um, kitchen equipment outlet area. And I'm sure you'll find some fun stuff. Awesome. I know we're going to go to the Yamazaki distillery and then hopefully try to see some sake brewery as well. Oh, nice. You know what I never went when I was there. I really wish I would like a good traditional miso production would be nice. I hear I've never been to Yamazaki, but I know people that have gone
+
+[37:14] that I thought it was a great tour, so, you know, let us know what happens. Sounds good, man. All right. I'll let you know. I'm fine. Thanks, man. Oh, look, Caleb, it's Peter Kim. Peter Kim. Peter can. Shows up just in time to get the free lunch. So, Peter. So, Peter. You know, Peter can by here. here for the pizza, not the friendship. Do you want a menu, Peter? bring a menu. You want to start with drinks? What are you? Are you the president or the director? Can I ever get a drink? Dude, who cares? of the museum of food and drink. How's it going over? Yeah, man, it's all right. Yeah, still kicking. Yeah. Not that you check on us that often. Damn. Well, so last week they had a technical difficulty with some of them, you know, for those of you who don't know,
+
+[38:07] museum of food and drink open right now with an exhibit on the birth of the flavor industry.
+
+[38:12] I heard you guys were having some technical problems with one of the machines. Did you get it fixed? We're still troubleshooting it. Oh, son of a gun. going to have to go over there and fix it. All right. Oh, I'm just saying. It's just the, yeah, we've got grape. List. Okay, everything smells like popcorn is one thing. Everything? Well, it's just popcorn constantly comes out. Every time you press any button, we have this thing called the smell synth, and it has 19 different arcade buttons, releases different smells, and you can press them to create all these different flavor combinations. One of them releases pyrazine, which has a popcorn smell to it. And for whatever reason, whenever you press any button, the Pyrazine jar, it shakes and there's a little air that goes through. So there's a slight popcorn note to everything right now at the smells. So it seems like it's like a programming thing. Well, how could that? don't know man. Probably because I went in and tried to futz around with it. Did someone actually try to fetch on it? I just want to see, I'm basically like the, I think the best episodes of cooking issues are when Dave turns into
+
+[39:11] Incredible, the Incredible Hulk. And so I basically just keep poking. It's like I take the sleeping line and just keep like poking them with you know, the broomstick. Could be worse. It could all smell like cheesy vomit. Yeah, it's true Which is another one of the buttons Yeah, that's the one that actually runs out the fastest. Oh really? People like the cheesy vomit. Yeah, everybody. I watch this all the time where everybody's like, oh, cheesy vomit. Oh, try. And then yoga, you go back for it. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like, I've always said, like, when you're, I don't want to get into it, family show. family, not family. Gross. Just gross. Like, whenever you get, let me put it this way, whenever you get something nasty smelling on your finger, you have to smell it. Actually, there are a small subset of the people who will not smell. their finger before they clean it off. Yes. Well, there is that classic saying that man with itchy butt has smelly finger. Where is that a classic saying? In the Kim household. Wow, we have one more color. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hello. Hello? Hey. Hi. Hi, this is this is Bill from Fullerton, California. How you doing? Well, where's Fullerton? A long time fast listener, and so it's great to actually finally be talking to you live.
+
+[40:32] Oh, nice. Where is Fullerton? Florida is Orange County. South of LA. All right. So Stas knows it well. Are you close to her home country of Covina? Um, yeah, nearby. I realized that Covina is in a disproportionate number of movies that involve teenagers or anything else
+
+[40:55] happening. Like, it's all like good burgers, COVID. Every time I watch a movie like that, it's Covina, Covina, Covina. You ever notice that? Uh, honestly, I haven't watched a lot of those movies. I'm not sure why. Yeah, strange. All right, what's your question? get to your question. Okay. I'm wondering, and I've listened to the back catalog, and I don't know if you've ever addressed this. Um, I really want to refill my soda stream bottle with dry
+
+[41:26] ice. But I wanted your take on it, whether or not that was extremely dangerous to do.
+
+[41:33] Yeah. I'm gonna file that one under, listen, I've seen the YouTube, what's it calls, where people do that, right? Uh, I'm going to go ahead and file that one under not
+
+[41:47] advisable because, look, here's the, here's the truth, though. And when Dave Arnold files something other not advisable, that is really not advisable. Yeah, because it's just, you know, you could get it wrong. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, theoretically, it's all fine and good. You open it. Here's the other trick. You have to let the CO2 build up before you close it again, right? Because you don't want any oxygen in there at all. So you have to, you have to tear out your, your, you have to tear out your bottle on a scale, right? And you have to get a scale that's going to sit there long enough because you don't want the sucker like, uh, you know, turning off. This is why I always advocate if you can afford having a plug-in scale, like get a plug-in scale so that it doesn't turn off on you. I hate when scales turn off in the middle of a measurement. Hate. Uh, so you get this scale there. It has to be enough to weigh the bottle and the contents that are in it. You tear it out empty, then you have to throw in your
+
+[42:49] pre-weight nuggets, right? You have to make sure it's the right weight, let it off gas for a little bit to clear out the excess
+
+[42:57] oxygen, and then and then cap it, uh, and pray that you've measured right. If you've measured right, it should all be good because you know how they fill CO2 tanks, they fill them by weight. They don't fill them by volume or anything like that. But I would say, and again, I'm not recommending you do this, but if you are going to do it, I would always go a little bit under instead of a little bit over.
+
+[43:20] Okay. A little bit over, very bad. Okay, well, I guess I won't do it then. I mean, I wasn't even sure if it would end up saving me money based on how much dry
+
+[43:33] ice, I would end up needing to buy. So I, and then I was actually, I was also actually curious if there was a built-in safety valve
+
+[43:43] to make it more safe than if there wasn't a safety valve.
+
+[43:48] The answer is there is an, there is a, now you're stretching my memory. There is an overpressure safety on those things, but I don't I don't think you want them to go off on you. You know what I mean? I think that little thing on the right is an overpressure safety, that
+
+[44:02] little, little hex looking thing on the right is an overpressure safety thing. But I wouldn't want to rely on. I think here's here's the other thing. So like I fill my own CO2 tanks, my large CO2 tanks, right? So I'll have like one of the large cylinders and I'll fill smaller cylinders or I'll do gas mixtures in them, but I'm doing it like pretty carefully by weight. And if you ever go that route. You know, that's also can be unsafe, and so I wouldn't recommend unless you look into it because you don't want to overfill it.
+
+[44:30] Um, but what I would do is, does your soda stream live in one space in your place or does it move around the house? Uh, it just moves like from above my fridge to my counter to back up above my fridge. Okay. So, uh, I'm sure someone out there has done this already, but it is rather trivial to
+
+[44:52] just uh, make an adapter to have it go to a real tank. Oh really? Yeah, done. Done. Then you just have the line running up to the soda streams, screw it on with the adapter, you're done. Okay, yeah. Where would I find info on that? I don't know. I should look at it because I've had enough people ask me about it, but yeah, you could, I don't know. People have done it. The real problem is this. Like people, it's a very simple machine work job to do it, right? Very simple. And then people, because, you know, they're not gonna sell that many of them, they need to charge an exorbitant amount of money. So the question is, has anyone done it in like quantities large enough such that the price is reasonable. Like that's the that's the thing. But think about it this way. To me, like large tanks isn't just about price, although price is a factor. It's all about like, how much do you hate those little bottles running out all the freaking time? Totally. I know. You hate it. It's brutal. Yeah. And then you're like, well, 15 bucks a pop. Jeez. Oh my god. Yeah, I share this struggle at home. It's a preposterous amount of money. It's absurd. preposterous by design. Now, CO2 tanks, CO2, the price of CO2 has gone up recently over the past couple of years, but not by that much.
+
+[46:13] You know what I mean? I think I pay, I think I pay $15 now for like 5 or £10 of this stuff. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Yeah, my friend has like the under the counter rig that, um, that,
+
+[46:26] that per your instructions and, and I think he does pay like just like about the same amount or a little more than what I pay for however much he
+
+[46:35] has. I'm not sure how much, but way more than me. Yeah, so like the, the, the rig that I use, right, which is the one with the carbonator caps and the bag and bottle
+
+[46:43] things. Here's the problem with it. My entire family is so freaking nanny
+
+[46:50] poo on carbonating that way. They're like, nah, it's so hard to put the valve onto the thing, man. Yeah, suck it up. Suck it up. Oh, in my house in Connecticut. It's freaking suck it up. And like Dax, my, you know, 11 year old. He's like pushing on it and like, I'm just staring at him because he has to man up and like put the cap on the thing, right?
+
+[47:11] Yeah, I can't just sit there and that one is very hard. Oh, come on. That one is very hard. How hard can a beast does? Really hard. How hard can it be? It's not like I'm like the strongest man on earth. I can make seltzer, not good. You are the strongest man. Anyway, my point being that some people in your family might go a little nanny poo on it. And like they have to go through the rigmarole every time. For me, it's easy. carbonating that way is just as easy as carbonating in a soda stream. In fact, easier because I can do it and leave it in the fridge, all kinds of stuff. But just be aware, if you do switch to a carbonator cap setup, be ready for some nanny poo from your family. friends. Okay, noted. Yeah. All righty. good luck with it Thank you. Long live indie Jesus. Ah, I wish we still had any Jesus. Where is he, Jack? That's a great question. I'm sure he's doing well, though. Can I share a quick story? So somebody who I won't name that works next door at the takeout
+
+[48:04] spot came up to me and they were like, hey, so, well, wow, maybe I shouldn't tell this whole story. Long story short, they say, um, who's who is, uh, Santa's little hipster? Ah. And I'm like, how did you know about that? And they're like, well, somebody that I know is a fan of the show. And they asked me to find out who Santa is. lives in all of our hearts. I haven't seen Santa's little hipster in a long time Not working here anymore. We're kind of like without a new character, you know? We got to find that person. Yeah, we got to we got to find someone. Yeah, who's like worthy of Stas is, you know, fertile ire. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. few minutes here. All right, okay, so let me get some of the questions. Hey guys, this is Steve Yune from Los Angeles. A few weeks ago, Johnny Hunter revealed on your show that he had developed a way to make
+
+[48:56] Black Garlic in 3 days and that he would be revealing it at a MoFat event and possibly on the radio show later.
+
+[49:01] Can you bug him for his recipe again? Me and several friends are anxiously waiting with our ears, stuck to the radio, waiting to see if the quick black garlic recipe would become public. My mom makes it all the time in a rice cooker and taught me that the typical, it taught me the typical three-week method. I'd like to be able to blow her mind once by making it over the weekend while visiting her. Ah, okay, listen, we have to get Johnny said, he made it public. Is that stuff on the air? Is that, can you go watch that demo? No. Did he videotape that demo? No. so nice. Thanks. So, yeah, well, but we could we can get it from Johnny. Yeah, I mean, roughly what he does, is he doesn't use a rice cooker, he uses a crock pot. He breaks the leaves the garlic in the skins, breaks it up, like, miss it a little bit, right? With water, wraps it in moist paper towels, and then puts it in aluminum foil in the crockpot, closes the crockpot, hits go, and then
+
+[49:55] has there's a towel, I think, also in the crockpot, a moist towel, and then just keeps re-upping that and like overturning it like once a day or so and goes, that's roughly what he does. Something like that. Yep. Yeah. But we'll get Johnny to cause because he did say he was going to make it public. And so maybe we'll get him to call in like, you know, next week, the week after and and, you know, just go through it really quickly, but that's the gist. You have his contact info man? Yeah. I think Stas is going to do it. You know, like, I have, I don't, I don't even call my family. Yeah. You know, I call people. Do I look like I call people? Stas, do I call people? Nope. Let me see. Dear Jack, on a food website. Dear me, huh? Yeah, dear you. Stella culinary, I asked the founder if he agreed with blast chilling sous vide proteins.
+
+[50:46] He quoted Dave Arnold. He said Dave Arnold says a slower chill is best for texture and flavor. If at all possible, please ask why slow chill is best. Thanks, John. Okay, here's the deal. I didn't used to believe this was the case. This is actually Bruno Gouseau's thing, Bruno Gouseau, the grand pappy of low temperature cooking. And so he always said that you want to ramp the cooling down. And the reason is, is that as meat is passing through, um, a particular temperature, he always said it was somewhere around 50 degrees
+
+[51:21] Celsius, as the meat is passing through that temperature, it's absorbing the liquids that it's expelled during
+
+[51:27] the cook, right? And so if you rapidly force meat from cook temperature down, it won't have the time to reabsorb that because at low
+
+[51:37] temperatures, it won't reabsorb the liquids, and obviously at high temperatures, it won't reabsorb the liquids. And so, you know, he used to um, advocate uh, three-step chilling, where he would take the bags out, leave them on the counter, because air is not very good at
+
+[51:53] uh, uh, heat conductor, so it doesn't cool, it doesn't have a, doesn't cool it off very quickly, then he would, after 15 or 20 minutes, depending on how thick it was, he would put it into tap
+
+[52:03] water. Uh, you know, like room temperature tap water to bring it down to that. And then after that, he would ice it down. And so what I would say is that blast chilling is great. once it's in, once it's done, its initial chilling. So once it's initially chilled down, right, and it's reabsorbed whatever juices, it's going to reabsorb. Once it gets down to, you know, in the kind of room temperature or not even a little warm in the room temperature, then you could hit it in the blast chill and take it down like a rock. What do you think, Jack? Did I answer the question? think so. That's going to be about it. All right, so next week we'll have to get to, we had a, we had a, you know, a Lahey
+
+[52:40] Bittman style, no need, bread question, which we have to get to, and we have a mocktail. We have a mocktail question. Mock duck. interesting. You want to talk about, you have 5 seconds to discuss, discuss mocked up. Not mock duck. The excellent. By the way, I in general don't like fake vegetarian stuff, but some traditional stuff. I think mock duck is delicious. Like actual mock duck. Delicious. Me too. Yeah, it's good. I asked some egg white questions. I have some good stuff. And how to hack how well to hack your soda siphons and your EC
+
+[53:16] bottles. There are some tricks. We'll get to it next time on cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Thurman Maple Days. celebrate flowing of sap in the Adirondacks, self-guiding to 7 sites for talks, tours, tastes, and old-fashioned friendliness. For more information, visit Thurman Mapledays.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:29] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of booking, which is coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday. This time, a little late. Well, you know, whatever, but noon-ish to like, LA, this is your normal time. No, but I feel like it's late because we have a guest today. That's true. On Harry Frito Network, broadcasting from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:49] Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia. The Hammer. Lopez, how you doing, Stuff? We got Jackie molecules in the booth. How you doing? I'm great. Just got back from Charleston. Oh yeah, how was it? It was good. Yeah? I got there early and drove through the low country to all those weird little islands. Well, let's talk about that in a second. We have special guest in the studio. The maestro of the food lab, which sold how many 1000000000 copies did you sell lab, Benji? Not quite a 1000000000 yet. We're working on it, working on it. Kenji Lopez, all 1000000000 selling book. New York Times bestseller, though, right? Yeah, yeah, for a little while. Nice. Nice. Yeah, I think it was something like a billion. In fact, we share a publisher and... Well, that's what I meant. Yeah, an editor. Yeah. I don't even, I think of her as like the whole, the kind of, Maria Gordon Shelley, you know,
+
+[1:34] world-renowned editor. Anyway, so like, the success of your book actually got her off my back for a while because she's
+
+[1:42] not wasn't for a while worried about my 2nd book because of the enormous success.
+
+[1:47] You have a 2nd book come in there? Well, yeah, yes. sales also? No, no, not no cocktails. No cocktails, no recipes, I think. Okay. Yeah. Food rants, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Adult color. Adult coloring books. I'd have to have Nastasia do them and then steal her ideas because Nastasia is the Nastasia is the line drawing queen. Oh, yeah. I mean, I could get my wife to do it, but that would be weird. It'd be easier. Like, we could just come out with a book together and I could just say, do this, and Nastasia would do the line drugs. One of the lesser known Nastasia Lopez skills. Yeah, I never would have guessed that. Yeah, no, it's true. Nastasia is a inveterate doodler and you like working in pen, right? Yeah I do. Like not pencil, pen. Pen. Pen. She's a pen worker. likes pens. Although you don't like fancy pens. You don't give a rat's ass about fancy rats behind, rather, family show. About, you're like, you know, any old, any old Bick, any old Bick will do. So, Jack, so now that we've now that we're all here. So tell us about the islands. You went to which islands did you go to? Edistow Island and St. Helena Island. Yeah? Is that where like all the Gulla stuff's happening? Uh-huh, yeah. I got some Frogmore stew. Yeah? What's in Frogmore stew? It's like just shrimp that you have to peel yourself and like boiled potatoes and corn, that kind of thing. Presumably it doesn't taste like the Cape Cod version of that, though. No, well, you know, I can't say that I've ever really spent much time in Cape Cod. What? Yeah, I know. It's weird, right? What's your Cape Cod equivalent? What's your east coast? What's your northeast beach mentality, basically? Well, like I'm from Long Island, you know? All right, so it's the same crap. guess so. It's the same crap. We're on Long Island? I'm from a place called West Babylon, so it's like a South Shore border of Nassau, Suffolk, kind of right in the middle. So you're not really a beach. But you drive out to Montauk. Yeah. And hang out with Billy Joel. Wow. Oh, yeah. You know, I've never been to Montana. I really don't like Bonj actually. You don't like whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Sorry. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stas, you hear that? I heard that. Sorry, Stas. Star is huge Billy Joel fan. I actually, uh, like, how... I was from the West Coast, so it's like... Yeah, but how can you come from Long Island and not like Billy Joel? doesn't make any freaking sense? Because I always hated Long Island, even when I was a kid. Well, I mean, you know, I came from I came from Jersey, you know, back in the day, that's where I went to elementary
+
+[4:09] school. I still like Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen. I was going to say, and Bruce, yeah? Yeah. Well, I didn't like Bon Jovi at the time, but with age comes perspective on how kind of perfect. Slippery when wet is like almost like, you know, Moses came down and was like slippery when wet. You know what I mean? It's like, when you think about the perfection of, like, it's like, you know, the childhood fantasy. It's awesome. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't like it at the time. I'm more of a Springsteen fan than Joe Mon Jovi, actually. Yeah, are you from Jersey? No, I'm from New York. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. So you get to look down on us folks who live in. We're in New York originally? Um, I grew up in Harlem. Oh, yeah, we're like real New York. Yeah, so you're one of those city kids that I hated. Yeah. Now my kids are those city kids. But I think I think I've said this before. I think it's a lot different now because you can be cool and like live in the suburbs now because of the
+
+[5:02] internet. Right, right. You could be cool anywhere these days. Yeah, whereas back in the day, you know, we felt like losers. Like us suburban kids, we felt like losers. What about you and Covinus does? Loser. Loser. Although the internet was around when? When you were in high school, it happened? too late, though, for you. Senior year. Yeah. The internet didn't happen until basically I was done with college. I got email when I was in high school, but it was like internal email in the school. I literally remember when, like, I saw the 1st email I'd ever seen. And by the way, you know, the guy that invented email just died like 2 days ago. Really? Yeah. I forget his name. He died, like he was like 74. he died like 22 days ago. And, uh, you know, he popularized the at symbol, the whole thing, like invented email. I remember in like way before anyone had or cared about email when there was like, you know, like a 100 people with email addresses. I was a junior in high school, this is in like 87, 88, something like that. And this guy was like, I have this thing called Email Watch. And he like typed an email and I was like, this is worthless. I was like, who's ever going to use this crap? This is garbage. Nonsense. Man. Did he send it to you from his Apple Newton? That was early 90s, right? We had 2 E. We had 2 E. It was an Apple 2E, which, of course, you know, I coveted because of the green screen so much better than my
+
+[6:19] radio Shack, TRSAD computer. And, uh, I just remember thinking, this is, this is not going to go anywhere. No, no. This is worthless. Like watching TV on the internet. I forget that dude's name, but I hope he's a billionaire. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Anyway, he deserves it. You know, being an early adopter or something like email, you should win something for that. Yeah, you probably get a cooler email address. Yeah, he's drawn 01 instead of John 387. Yeah, well, this is, you know, obviously this is way pre- there was no WWW that time. Literally, you had to like know exactly where someone was and send them an email.
+
+[6:57] You know what I mean? Ah, dumb. Okay. So you have anything you want to plug about the book, anything specific you want to talk about? you think so? No. I mean, I don't know. buy it if you want to. Don't if you don't. No, anyway. Call your questions to Kenji at 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. All right, so let's let's hit some stuff that we have here. Can I actually like jump the line because I have something that I'm interested in hearing both of you talk about. All right. Is that cool? So there's all these articles about bay leaves lately. that I've been reading. and I'm kind of like challenging the notion that they actually do anything in a big, you know,
+
+[7:35] stotor. What do you mean? They taste like bay. Yeah. Have you seen this, Kenji? Have you seen these argument? I have had people ask me. I actually wrote a, I wrote an article like a couple years ago called what's, it was, it was a question I got from a reader, and the question was, what's the point of bay leaves? They do. Yeah, you can taste it. And of course, like depending on where you get your bay leaves, whether it's like a Turkish bay leaf, which is what generally what you generally find dried versus like a California bay leaf, which you find fresh, like they have different flavors, but
+
+[8:05] yeah, they definitely have flavored dishes. You can tell the difference side by side if you taste. They are merely the most popular of the aromatic leaves, which almost all of
+
+[8:14] the, all of this style of aromatic tree leaf come from the um, the laurel family, right? So you have aromatic avocado leaves, where some aren't, which I believe are the same family as Bay. I think. I don't know that they're all in the same family, but I know Lauriace has, I'm pretty sure. I got to go look it up because I wasn't expecting to talk about it, but like there's a lot of aromatic leaves in that in that kind of family. I don't know whether like Sassafras and Spice Bush are in the same general family, but like a lot of those, you know, that family has these kind of aromatic leaves. And of course they make a difference. Now, the crappier the leaf is, let me give you an example. I have some crappy, you know, spice class. That's a brand of spicy right here. Spice class. So I have like crappy spice class bay leaves. And so I have to use like 4 or 5 times as many of those to get the same flavor. And they're a pain. So I tend to tie them up by the, by the, you know, the stuff. Yeah, and then throw them in in like larger quantities. But perhaps you've heard of the Spice Jack old bay, which is like, like has like a huge hit of ground up bay in it. Bay is... To be clear, I can taste when bay leaves are used. I'm saying that there were a lot of articles posted. A lot of my friends were sharing. It was on the owl. Who wrote it? What's the owl? Yeah, well. Was it some like angry internet person just trying to make angry internet? It was like part of humor, but also serious. It's blog. You know, you know, the one thing about Bay leaves, though, um, and is that, and this is different from most other herbs, is that, um, you know,
+
+[9:45] the, well, similarly to most other, there's a big difference between dried and fresh, but, uh, but the difference in bay leaves is that the dried versions are almost always the Turkish bay leaves and the fresh versions are almost always California bay
+
+[9:55] leaves and they have a very different flavor. Like the California bay leaves have a much stronger sort of eucalyptus. It's not the same plant, right? Yeah, it's not even the same plant yet. Yeah, they're both sold as bay leaf. So a lot of people say, oh, the fresh bay leaves are always better than the dry, but that's not always the case because it adds a flavor that's quite different from a standard bay flavor.
+
+[10:10] So I almost always use dry bay leaves that I store in the freezer. Well, you know, this is a huge misconception. People have about everything in the world that fresh is better than dry. Yeah, it's like they're almost always different. And so anything that is sometimes something is different and worse. sometimes it's just different. Like ginger, like fresh ginger versus dried ginger. Totally different. Dried basil bad. Dried basil bad, dried parsley, dried chives. Not good. I haven't tried really dried, freeze dried drives I've had. You know what? I'm talking if you go and buy a bottle of spice class. Oh, spice class. You know, I got in big trouble with my wife because did I talk about this? Maybe. Because, you know, I've been saying we've been doing the 70s style potato bars recently, you know, where you just make a big
+
+[10:59] ass, big, big potato and then... yeah. It's like taco night. Yeah, it's like taco night, but it's like baked potato night. Because I'm like, you know, whatever, bringing it back. And, um, So my wife was cutting up the chives. And she did like the ultimate chive, like horror show of chopping them long. I kind of like that sometimes, like in a soup or something. They have no flavor when you chop them long. The ch flavor. Yeah, but then they stick in your teeth. I don't know. I'm not a but you know what you shouldn't do? You shouldn't, like, you shouldn't look at the chives that your wife is chopped and
+
+[11:33] be like, what the hell is happening to these chives? Why? Look, on a baked potato. It's better than crushing them, at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the 1st like fancy restaurant job I had on my 1st day on my 1st day of service, I was chopping chives for the line, and I had no idea what I was doing then, and the chef, Barbara Lynch was
+
+[11:52] the number 9 part, because the chef, like she walked by my station while I was chopping the chives, and without even looking at me, like just hearing the sound the chives were making as I was traveling, she's like, you're doing those wrong, throw them out because you could hear the kind of crush.
+
+[12:03] Yeah, the crushing noise, the crushing noise. yeah Because I was crushing them instead of slicing them. Yeah, yeah, well. I like, I like thin, small disks, like, like 2 little, tiny... You want them to be sliced thinner than they are wise. That's the best. Although they're a pain to dose out like that because they tend to stick and clump if you do it ahead, but
+
+[12:23] that's life. Big city, especially if you crush it. If you slice it. crush, yeah. If your knife is sharp and you slice well and they stay nice and separate, I think. Now may I ask you this. So Chives, would you ever use, it's not true. So obviously like the application for blended chives is ranch dressing, right? So ranch dressing, dill chides, other stuff. But in general, is chive ever, they're expensive. So is it worthwhile to ever blend? you ever blend it? Where you use a different allium for that? I wouldn't. I mean, you know, I've seen like chive oil, right? Any bunch chives there, but... I never make it, though. Do you ever make that stuff? No, I mean, I did like I did in like, yeah, like the early 2000s
+
+[12:59] in restaurants, chive oil color on the soup. but could you cheat on the chive oil and really use a different allium and scallion tops? Probably, but I mean, scallions taste a little different, don't they? In the oil? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they don't. I think it's just one of those things that people used to do. Maybe maybe chives are a myth. Maybe there's no point in chives. No, Chives, they're good. I like chives. Stas, you Chive fan? Yeah. Chad Stas likes to chive. But anyway, this thing about bay, who's the owl? Who's this blogger? We know them? No, we don't we don't know them. Let's see. Can we call the name? Kelly, Kelly Connaboy. This is like saying, oh, we have, you know, wine. Flavor? You're like, yeah, yeah, wine has a flavor. What are you talking about? Bay leaf. Like, did this person have like a negative experience with Baileys? Do they think it's a scam? Are these like the kind of people that don't like modern art because they think the wool is being pulled over their eyes? It could be someone who has your spice-class bay leaves who use one bay leaf in a soup and don't notice it because it's a shitty bay leaf. That's true. That's the issue. I do think that's the issue. Yeah, then fine. The answer is use more. The good thing about bay is that, um, yeah, most recipes tell you to use a bay leaf or two, and that won't really do much with most of the bay leaves,
+
+[14:13] low quality bay leaves that people have. So I invariably triple the amount that the recipe calls
+
+[14:20] for. And bay leaf is not the kind of thing that rides, unless you go way over, it doesn't really ride over the
+
+[14:28] top. But, like, you can't, like, I never make a stock without Bay. I very rarely make like a super stew or anything like that without baying it. Rarely, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's good. And like the whole point of it is it's an integrated spice. So it's not supposed to, it's not like Nastasia's least favorite cumin, which is like supposed to hit you on the head. You know what I mean? Right. It boosts other flavors. pretty well. Stas, why don't you like human? I don't know. We've gone through it before. don't want to... There was a comment in the chat room. They said, how about getting Kenji to talk about his vegan month just for Nastasia's benefit. All right, but before we do that, Jack, we had a comment in on the Twitter, from a geek girl with a number, which I forget the number. Anyway, she wants to know how to get on the chat rooms because apparently we're not making it like clear how to get under the chat rooms. Oh, it's clear how to get in the chat. Well, tell her how to get on the freaking chat rooms. How do you do? this person emailed this and then said they could figure it out. So you go to the website, you click play. Okay. That's going to pop up with a player. And then... You have to play the chats? They're like a, you have to pull up the live stream first. And then, you know, you just click on the heritage radio logo right there and it pulls up the chat room. There you go. You could also go to mixler.com slash heritage dash radio dash network if you want to go manual with
+
+[15:44] it there. Mixler. Mixler. That's the, yeah. Sounds like the sounds like a Flintstones character. Kind of does. I have a caller if you want to take the call. All right, call her. you're on the air Hi, Dave and Kenji. It's Alex from Santa Barbara. How's it going? And I was wondering, um, several debate for me about the liquid smoke brine versus actually
+
+[16:06] smoking, because it's been coming up a lot that you can get pretty close to there with liquid smoke and a little bit of nitrate in your grind,
+
+[16:13] for, let's say, 48 hours, and then you low temp out for 36 on, let's say, you know,
+
+[16:18] brisket. And it's basically the same. And I don't believe it, but I've never done it side by side. And I want you guys to explain the math to me. Well, who said it was the same? Uh, like chef steps and or close enough to be the same? I've said similar things. Not, um, I, I, I said similar things in a SUV pork, uh, rib recipe. I wrote a couple months ago. I mean, it's not exactly the same. And it's not exactly the same in the same way that anything you cook sous vide is not going to be exactly the same as something you cook via another method, right?
+
+[16:50] Like sous vide brisket is sous vide brisket. It's not exactly the same as barbecue brisket. Not at all the same. Yeah, but that doesn't mean I don't think that means better or worse. But as far as the smoke flavor goes. Um, I mean, you can get smoke flavor from a liquid smoked brine, um, that that will, I mean, that will make people think that it was smoke. Well, you don't get like, you don't get like bark development. like things like that. But it is, it is literally the same stuff that is getting deposited on your meat while you're smoking
+
+[17:18] it. Minus some stuff. minus some stuff. And usually you'll get my question right there. Yeah, because what's the minus stuff that will be success? I could taste the difference. I mean, I know you're going to get different products depending on how you cook it, but just the flavor of the milk. They get rid of a lot of the theoretically cancer causing like polycyclic hydrocarbon stuff, right? Isn't that like I think so, yeah. And then they, they also, you know, the issue is usually you're in an oil phase or a water phase, because most, they're not, so like, presumably some is
+
+[17:49] going to, like, some smoke compounds like would gravitate towards the oil phase versus the water, so you're probably only getting the water phase
+
+[17:56] stuff. But when you're when you're smoking in a smoker, you're mostly getting only water face stuff
+
+[18:02] anyway because the smoke is being transported by the moist air, right? Well, there's this actual particulate matter as well. Right, right, right. You know, and so like, like, you know, I noticed like, you know, when the chefs used to use a smoking gun, Do they use anymore? some people do. Yeah. You had noticed that like the particulate matter would settle out after a couple minutes, but the smoke aroma would stay in the in the thing because there is like a heavy kind of a particulate thing. But, I mean, the truth of the matter is, is that smoking does a number of things besides imparting flavor. Right. So you're being exposed to a particular atmosphere,
+
+[18:37] you're being exposed to a particular temperature, at a particular humidity. And so, you know, like Kenji was saying, like you get the bark. So different things happen from a textual standpoint that are a lot of times difficult to, um, separate
+
+[18:49] from, uh, from just the flavor. lavor element, yeah. especially with things like crust development. It's virtually impossible to separate the, like, the textural difference and the cooking difference from the flavor. It's just not possible. And the other thing to be aware of is that liquid smoke is produced at a very specific temperature for
+
+[19:11] a very specific thing. So you smoking something for real might be different if your temperatures are higher, lower. You're using different, you're going to generate different kinds of compounds because pyrolysis is very, very complicated stuff is happening. The other thing is, I find that like smoke applications, more maybe with powder than with the liquids, it's super easy to overdose on
+
+[19:32] it and it goes like bitter. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And people, I think people do often overdose. But I think people often also overdo us on smoke when they're when they're actually smoking things too. Right. Because I always think, I mean, the smoke should
+
+[19:45] be seasoning, like like cumin or bay leaf, whatever. You know, it should be seasoning. It shouldn't be the only thing you taste in there. But I will tell you that, you know, in the testing I've done for, you know, getting smoke flavor into meat through methods that aren't smoking, that brining in a in a brine with liquid smoke, I think is the most effective way to keep it subtle, and to get good penetration without, you know, it's very different to do that than to say, like, add liquid smoke straight
+
+[20:11] to like a barbecue sauce, which you just paint on the surface. Right. Like brining it overnight in a brine wood liquid smoke gets you a much more sort of natural tasting smoke penetration. I'm going to get my behind kicks. like barbecue sauce. Well, what kind of like Kansas City? I know, I just don't like goopy. Yeah, I don't like goopy. Yeah, I'm more of like a, like a, um, you know, vinegar sauce. Yeah, yeah. I don't even consider like, I know that they do, but I consider that like red pepper and vinegar. Like, I don't consider that, like, vinegar, a little sugar, maybe, but yeah. I don't consider that like when someone says barbecue sauce, you're thinking... Kansas City style ketchup and molasses. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that. I like it on French fries. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's okay as, like, you know, kind of a secondary ketchup. Yeah. But I just not... I'm with you on that too. People love it. I'm happy that you like it, whoever you are, the lifesaver, right? I'm not against it in theory. It's just not my, it's not my cup of tea on on meat. I have another call. Caller, you're on the air. Yeah, Dave, Dan, Seattle. A couple of pressure canner questions. Okay. So 1st of all, I got a very big new all aluminum, uh, pressure cannon for Christmas. Made by American Canter Corp? Yep. Yep. So my 1st question. is can I make the stock in it before I put it in jars? I mean, does the bar aluminum really matter much for stock? Well, depends on what you believe. Like, if you believe that aluminum is bad to cook in, then it matters. If you don't, as I don't, then, you know, it won't bother you. I mean, flavor-wise, I don't think you're going to taste aluminum in your... Not in the stock. Okay. I'm not talking about anything with a ton of lemon juice or vinegar or whatever. I mean, the hard part about, uh, even like small amounts of like, uh, you know, in some classic stocks will be like a couple tomatoes, but it's not
+
+[22:17] going to do anything. You know what I mean? But the, um, I wouldn't use, I guess you can't fit it in the dishwasher
+
+[22:25] anyway because it's so big. I was going to say like, like where you don't want to do on that is like harsh detergents on it because it's, I believe it's
+
+[22:32] cast and so it'll get porous and pitted after a while at the bottom and I cook it. No, they specifically say not to do that. like you said, it wouldn't fit anyway. I mean, it's a monstrously huge thing. Yeah. I mean, the hard part about the pressure canners, if you're using them to do anything other than straight canning is that they are a huge ship to steer.
+
+[22:55] So, uh, you know, on a level of difficulty of getting the right heat input, I'd say it's like twice as difficult as like with a regular pressure cooker to get the
+
+[23:05] heat input correct. Just because of its volume? Yeah, yeah, just because it's so hard to read the slope, right? You know, whereas, like, a normal pressure cooker responds within a minute or two,
+
+[23:17] like this guy could have, like, you know, 4 or 5 minutes of ride up and down, so it takes a while to kind of dial it in. So like what I would do is the 1st couple times you use it, I would kind of keep track of where your settings are based on how much you have in
+
+[23:33] it because that's pretty much, you know, assuming that you use relatively constant loads.
+
+[23:38] Yeah. Also, that thing's pain. You ever use one of those things, Kenji? They're a pain to close all of those screws. I mean, look, yeah, I've seen those. Nothing else can do what they can do. They're huge volume, you know, pressure cooker canners, but do you have the regular canterlit or do you have the sterilization lid for it? Do you have the regular canning lid for it or the sterilization lid with the tube? Uh, the regular. Yeah, yeah. The sterilization lid is it's creepy. How does that work? So if you're going to use it as a sterilizer, which I guess some people do in places, I don't know where, who don't have
+
+[24:13] sterilizers. They're worried that there'll be pockets of gas in it that will cause it to not go through the sterilization procedure at the same
+
+[24:23] way. So they have a, they have a tube that extends down that you have
+
+[24:27] to, like, vent out the tube to get rid of uh, entrained non-steamed gases before you crank the stuff. Remember what a nightmare that was does? And we crushed the tube and we were yelling at each other and screaming and
+
+[24:39] nightmare. nightmare. I use like pretty much exclusively electric pressure cookers, no. Really? Yeah, you know, which one? Right now I'm using the Brevel Pro, which has like full manual. you can I mean, it only goes up to 12 PSI, which most electric cookers do, but you can get anywhere from anywhere from one. 5 to 12 at half PSI increments. Can you hack it, like the Cleason Art? I don't know. I haven't tried. But it also has like automatic altitude adjustment and like an automatic pressure release and
+
+[25:08] stuff, which is pretty nice. Automatic altitude adjustment. So it'll go, so yeah, that's that's not worth it. I was going to say, you could put it into another container jacket, like, to 3 PSI and then hit go, but that's not worth it. not worth it. But so it's actually working on pressure, not on temperature. It has, so it has, it has a pressure gauge, and it also has 2 temperature gauge, like it has a temperature probe at the bottom end at the end at the top. But the pressure gauge is a release or the pressure gauge is a measurement. Um, I'm not sure actually. I'm not sure. I don't know. I should ask them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure how the altitude bit was. Back at much more specific question. I want to make Cuchinita Pabil in a canning jar. Can I just put the banana leaf and the pork? I mean, whatever, like, the toughest piece of pork I can get and the atchiote in there, and is there some overwhelmingly obvious reason that wouldn't work? Huh, I don't know. What do you think, Angie? I think it would work. I mean, what happens if banana leaves and a pressure cooker? They probably break down. I don't know. I've never tried that specifically, but I've, but I've stuck, um, I mean, I've stuck meats and
+
+[26:16] and, like, onions and things, like, you can make, like, you know, you can caramelize onions inside sealed jars in a fresher
+
+[26:22] canter. Right, but they obviously, but onions obviously lose a lot of their onion potency. They get a lot more neutral and a lot sweeter in a pressure cooker than they would in any sort of other normal cook. Sure. Um, But or like, you know, if you were going to do like acid canning where it's just a boilout versus
+
+[26:37] pressure. But I don't, in other words, I don't know whether banana leaves are going to have a different flavor extraction or anything around the,
+
+[26:45] because, you know, there's that layer around the banana leaf that has that particular flavor.
+
+[26:49] Banana leafy flavor. Yeah, which I like. But I don't know what happens at pressure cooker. don't know. I know how you can find out. Yeah, do it. Yeah. there's nothing on the surface of it that seems to think that it won't work. All right, well, I will just give that a shot next time I get around to it. I wound up with way too many banana leaves the last time I made. I made this regularly. I need to get them out of my freezer. All right, well, let us know what happens. Thank you, sir. I got a question from the chat room if you want to take it. Yeah, this is okay, go. to Kenji or Dave. Can you ramenize fresh pasta also instead of doing the baking soda technique, can I just use can sui? I don't know if that's pronounced it. Okay, there you go. But, uh, I don't know that you'd want. I mean, it depends on what you like why you're doing it. He said he used the modernist cuisine recipe for ramen and broke a pasta machine. Because it was too dry or? No, I don't know. Oh, whoa, whoa, wait, so specifically, the question is, is it going to go through his pasta machine? guess so. Can you ramenize fresh pasta? Yes, yes. I mean, obviously, this is how they make ramen. So is he asking, is he asking, can you take, like, can you make fresh Italian style pasta and cook it
+
+[27:58] in, in, in baking soda water and will it taste like possibly? question Can you do yellow alkaline noodles through a regular pasta machine? I mean, I would assume you can. Yeah, well, yeah. But the question is, is like, if you're going to make an Italian shape, I mean, like, look, fundamentally yellow alkaline noodles
+
+[28:18] are is like a fairly normal pasta dough with console in it. Right? Yeah, typically a little bit drier than a, like an Italian style dough, but... Yeah, but I mean,
+
+[28:28] it would be harder to push through a pasta machine, but I don't... Right, but you could up the water, you could still get the yellow, some of the bounce and
+
+[28:35] the concuite flavor. But it'll taste like that. So you're basically just making ramen in a different shape. Yeah, there's, you know, like UG, UG Ramen, he does, he does like a bunch of different pasta shapes with ramen dough. So he makes like ramen, ramen flavored arquette and stuff like that. Right. The key thing, the real baller move, is to do forget, forget making freaking noodles. Make lasagna so that it retains its texture when it's being cooked. I mean, that's the baller thing to do. And then slice it afterwards or just... Yeah, in other words, instead of using like a Italian style pasta for, although, you know, who makes, you don't really want to use fresh for lasagna anyway, unless it's a very specific
+
+[29:17] thing? But you would want like a dried ramenized, but not like fried and pre-cooked
+
+[29:22] ramenized unless you're going to do the thing, but like, what's an application for pasta where you really want that, the texture, the bounce? right? Where a pasta tends to disintegrate. ramen. But that's the reason to ramenize something. Yeah. Chicken, chicken noodle soup that you're going to put in a can. Yeah. He specified, he says when a mask. What I'm asking is to make fresh Italian noodles, then ramen eyes. Oh, so cook, so you, you mean using that hack where you cook it in water, like with baking soda or
+
+[29:48] consui, and it gets a little bit of that ramen, like that ramen flavor? You can get that. That's what exactly. Flavor. I don't think you're gonna get the texture. Well, with dry pasta, you do get you do get the texture is different significantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've never tried it with fresh pasta, but I don't see why it wouldn't work with fresh pasta. Let me put it you this way. I would bet it would be more likely to work. If you did the pre-soak and then bring up from cold, then if you did it, because once the
+
+[30:14] protein's cooked, It's cooked. Yeah, I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe with fresh pasta, the problem would be that it doesn't spend enough time in there because it cooks so quickly and it's not absorbing much of the liquid, right? So how much, like, how close to ramen do you get if you're boiling it in water with... If you do like a thin pasta, like spaghetti or cappellini or something and cook it in water with baking soda, like it
+
+[30:35] gets it gets pretty close. Yeah. Yeah. In flavor or in texture? Both, both. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's actually, it's a good trick for if you're making like, if you want to make like a pasta salad that where the pasta doesn't get mushy, you know, because pasta,
+
+[30:48] when you make, I don't know why people make pasta salad anyway, but if you make pasta salad, I don't love it. But it gets it gets mushy as it sits in the dressing. If you cook it in, like, alkanalized water, is that the right word? Alkalized water? Yeah. The pasta stays a lot bouncier even after you cool it and dress it. Let me tell you something about angel hair and all those small pastas. They're supposed to be creamy. They're supposed to be creamy. Yeah, but if you want if you want it to be ramen, then you can't get ramen where you are. So when do I like those things dry? I guess they're anchovy sauces for Christmas Eve where I like those pastas dry-ish. How do you like, how do you like your very fine pasta? I don't like fine pasta. For real? Me neither. Why? Because it's bad. What I hate about people. It's not bad. It's just different. It's not your al dente stuff. It's just a different product. God damn. I mean, gosh darn. Yeah, I also know a good way to find out if you can do this, by the way. Yes, the good old test it and see what happens. Oh, call her, you're on the air. Hey, this is a scooter in Montana. Kenji, you may have just answered a question I asked a couple weeks ago about canning noodles. Um, so, uh, I called and asked about getting noodles that are like the, you know, the, the canned chicken noodles. Yeah, yeah. You think if you add some alkaline to your homemade noodles and put them in
+
+[32:11] the can that they'll hold together? Uh, yeah, I think, well, hold together better, um, but I, I, I would cook the noodles separately in, in, uh, alkalized water and then add them to the soup before you can it. I wouldn't I wouldn't add I wouldn't add baking soda to your chicken noodle soup. But I would cook the noodles separately. Or if you're making, or if you're making homemade noodles, yeah, you can, you could add
+
+[32:32] consuya or bacon soda or something to them. Right. Yeah. Sweet. Thank you. All right. Yeah, cool. Now, Jack, what was the other question you had off of the... So I've got 2 chat room requests. I'm gonna let you choose your own adventure here. They either want a conversation on vegan month, comparing vegan month notes, or revisiting the conversation about weighing cocktail ingredients. Okay. Well, here, hit it on the vegan months. Talk about vegan month. Okay, wait, comparing notes as in whatever. I've only ever done. I did raw vegan for a week. Oh, raw vegan, okay. I know, but you did, what do you do? vegan? I do it every year. Every year for a month. Are you in the middle of that month right now? in the middle of it right now, yeah. So what's up with that? Well, okay. So I started it, you know, mainly. Well, I've always been interested in being like as far as diets go. It's one of the ones that makes sense to me, just sort of from a ethical and environmental
+
+[33:25] standpoint, it's made sense to me. And so I, you know, but the 1st time I did it, I was sort of skeptical and I did it mainly because I wanted to challenge myself and see what would happen. And then it turned out that I actually had a really great month because it made me, you know, made me think about recipes in a different way, think about new ingredients and new
+
+[33:42] techniques. You know, I think from a recipe development standpoint, it's been great because it just, it means like for a month out of the year, I think about a completely different set of things than I normally do. Um, but, um, you know, but these days, you know, when I when I'm not, uh, when I'm not testing recipes or eating for work, um, I'd maintain mostly vegetarians, some fish, but, um,
+
+[34:02] like I don't, I don't really go out for meat anymore. So, you know, in that sense, it's sort of changed the way I eat. So what's your favorite thing you've discovered this vegan month? Uh, I've been working a lot on hummus, um, and, you know, I was actually going to be publishing a recipe, a recipe next week. But then last night I went to John Fraser's new place, Nick's. Have you been there? It's awesome. Awesome. It opened on Monday. It's a vegetarian restaurant, but you know, John Fraser. He is dovetail and our sister, neither one of them vegetarian restaurants. He like, you know, great chef Michelin star guy. Good man, too. Yeah. But he opened a vegetarian restaurant that is amazing. And they have this awesome hummus. And I was talking to him about it, and he uses a completely different technique than I used. So now maybe I'm going to hold off on the recipe and do some more. What do you do? So, okay, so, so, you know, the testing I was doing was mainly about getting the texture
+
+[34:52] right. And so, you know, so doing things like trying to peel it, whether peeling chickpeas really matters. My, you know, my technique now is basically just like cook the crap out of the chickpeas, um, and then, and then puree it all. Um, um, but what he does is he cooks the crap out of the chickpeas, um, but then completely reduces the liquid, um, and purees all the
+
+[35:12] mire pot, every, like basically everything that was in the pot, all the liquid, all the mirepoix, everything that was in there with the chickpeas, purees it all together. Um, and it, and it, and purees it, importantly, purees it while it's hot in a blender, um, as opposed to letting it cool and then doing it in a food
+
+[35:25] processor, because when it's, when it's hot, it's like the texture of like a milkshake, you know, it's like easily done in a blender.
+
+[35:30] And then by the time it cools down to serving temperature, it's the texture of hummus. So you can get it a lot smoother in a blender than you can in a food processor. Because of setback? Uh, yeah, yeah. The, uh, wait, so are you an advocate? Is he an advocate of the appeal after soak, rub the things off after? No. So, I mean, okay, so where I'm coming down and again, this might change if I do some more testing, but where I was coming down and up until I had his last night was
+
+[35:52] that, um, you know, when I when I served it side by side to people, um, people mostly picked the one where they where they were peeled. Um, but the other one was also way better than, you know, the one where you just
+
+[36:04] cook them to crap was way better than, than anything else as well. So it's like you can get you can get like 90% good hummus without peeling the chickpeas if you want that extra
+
+[36:12] 10%. You know what, though, peeling chickpeas is not that big. not that hard. not that hard. Yeah, you do like the with the gold panning method, right? Uh, yeah, also, I just like put my hands and I'm like, ah, yeah, after soaks and then, yeah, and then I, yeah. Yeah, you put them in water, rub them around with your hands and then kind of skim off the skins that float the top. Yeah, I find it strangely cathartic. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, some people don't like doing stuff, stuff like that. The one thing you don't want to use is canned chickpeas. In a pinch, they taste okay. In a pinch, they taste okay. yeah. And again, you know, this is like inside by side taste tests. They don't taste okay but nobody eats things side by side in real life. Do you ever do it with like the smaller like Bengalgram stuff or, you know, only using Italian style? I've been using, yeah, just
+
+[36:53] Italian style. Hummus so hot right now. humus. So hot. So hot right now, hummus. The, uh, okay, so, uh, I did, you know, I don't know if you know this. I had to, this is years ago, I had to do raw vegan for a week and it was a hard show.
+
+[37:06] This is a complete horror show. Well, the raw part is the... I was just an angry... I was an angry monster. when I went back on cooked food, my toilet thanked me. Um, the, I mean, it's just, and by the way, uh, we haven't talked about this, but, uh, you know, Richard
+
+[37:22] Grangam, the guy who wrote, uh, um, uh, how cooking made us
+
+[37:26] human? Uh, nope. Oh, he's awesome. professor at Harvard. Um, and um, Oh, I know that book, yeah. Yeah. The actual titles out of my head. I just have the tagline on fire, I think, or something like that. So he's done a lot of amazing work. on like primates and like how long we would have to sit and eat to get nutrition from raw food
+
+[37:49] diets and things like this. So he's going to come on the show. We're trying to schedule it. We're not sure when, but he's going to come on a show. We're going to talk to him about his book and how it relates to kind of cooking. But yeah, raw. Well, these days a lot of people do have time to sit around and eat a lot, right? Yeah, he reviewed some of the data that was done on people on raw food diets and kind of how much they had to eat. And it's a great way to lose weight just because your body can't absorb a lot of the stuff that you're eating. So it's just a fantastic way to, you know, to lose weight. Two minutes, Dave. Two minutes. All right, so you want to talk about, I have to, I have to read an anti-me rant and then, uh, We can talk about cocktails. Okay, let's do let's do cocktails and then I'll rip through the anti-me rant. Okay, Wayne cocktail. So, yeah, so I think I tweeted once a while back, uh, that, uh, why don't more people weigh their weigh their cocktail ingredients instead of measuring them in jiggers. And then some people said, yes, and then some people rightfully said, no, that's stupid. But I think I think it really comes down to context. Like, if, you know, like, I know I know what drinks I drink at home and it's not a huge,
+
+[38:52] like I maybe make 4 or 5 different drinks at home or like most of the time it's just a Negroni, right? And if I'm making like 3 or 4 of them, I find it's easier just to throw the thing on
+
+[39:00] the scale, pour the stuff in, and I'm done. And I know the ratio, like I don't have to carry. I don't have to care about the density of the things because I know how much I want of each one and it's done and I don't have to mess up a jigger. I just pour it into the glass. No, but you always have to pour into another glass because what if you overpour? Well, just don't overpour. Well, no, like you never pour, you never pour the liquid directly into the batch. It's not like cooking. I pour it directly into my mixing glass. You're freaking savage. You're freaking savage. Like you have no, you have no room for mistakes then. Well, and it's also, if I slightly overpour, I just don't care. Savage. Then why weigh at all? Just do it by eye. That's that's yeah, that's a good question, I guess. Anyway, let's read the anti. The illusion of precision. Yes, yeah. Well, you know, a lot of times that's the case anyway. A lot of this stuff is just making yourself feel good with precision. With cooking? No, like this, I wrote a rant a bit about like recipes that have gram measurements and very, very precise amounts and it's like used 33 grams of onions and stuff and stuff. And that's like, I think, total illusion of precision because it's not like the onion I'm using today is the same as the onion I'm using next week or the one that you're getting in California or whatever, right?
+
+[40:05] It's like, you can use the same exact amount of ingredients and come up with completely different flavors just because ingredients vary a lot. But for some reason, there are some people who like really want this kind of precision in a recipe, even if it's a sort of false precision. How often do you use a thermometer? When you're not testing for writing. So these days, not much because I don't cook meat very much at home, but when I cooked meat, I mean, I always use it for meat. Even when you roast a chicken? You use a thermometer on a chicken? Oh, especially is it for roast chicken? Really? Yeah, yeah. Because, well, because, yeah, roast chicken is one of those things where I think if it gets slightly overcooked, it's not good anymore. Yeah, chicken and turkey. Oh, because you're not a briner. I'm a dry briner, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We need another whole nother show to get into these kind of arguments. Jack, can I read this anti-me rant real quick? Real quick. Jack, thanks to Wonderful Network. I am a big fan and admirer of Dave. That said, this is about the gaps diet. Do you know about the gaps diet, Kenji? No. Yeah. That's it, I have to admit that I'm rather disturbed that Dave got off topic to evaluate the gaps diet for his listeners.
+
+[41:10] I didn't evaluate it, by the way. I just said that I don't have any data on it. I don't know about it, but that things that I saw initially on it set off red flags, but not that I had the data. That was maybe long and didn't actually make the point, but that was what I was trying to
+
+[41:25] say is that flags were being raised about the presentation of the
+
+[41:29] of the diet, but that I have no actual data on the diet. That was my take home, by the way, just so you know, Kenji. All right. I'm going to have to family arise it. Um, I mean, who, I say Justino instead of, instead of Jesus Christ should make it a little more family friendly. Uh, I mean, Justino, where is uh, where in the list of many things he's an expert on is human physiology and healing diets? The question should have been discarded as off topic and never brought to the fore. But it has been, and Dave didn't even know where to begin talking about it, which is kind of what I said. I don't know about this specific diet. I do know about some fad diets, like master clans, slow to horse crap. unless you love it, people, in which case, anyway. Bottom line is that this is a healing diet with a long history of success and a lot of endorsements from qualified medical professionals. So, you know, whatever. Amazingly, address problems with human microbiome before anyone was thinking of the human microbiome. If they will check all those ailments that gap says it cures, all are identified by reports as ailments that are triggered by gut dysbiosis, autism, a bunch of things, more like associated
+
+[42:35] with, you know, most of the data. Anyway, um, Triggered by gut disbiosis gaps fixes those problems and fixes them by just changing diet for a while,
+
+[42:46] gustino, it doesn't really have to be, it doesn't have any products to sell unlike real fad diets, usually do, usually, not always. Mash a cleanse. Anyway, if you would like to have an author of a popular level, Gaps diet book on the air with Dave, I could arrange it. Well, I think he should never comment on food as medicine issues again, since it's really not his area of expertise. I do feel that it owes it to his listeners and gas people to set the record straight as much as possible. The easy way would be to have an established commenter on the diet. Come on. happy to arrange that I'll still listen every week, of course, even if Dave was just packing sugar,
+
+[43:18] honey, and iced tea, when he addressed that topic. Let me know. Thanks. Alan Baliott from Shepherdstown, West Virginia. Y'all have someone on, but I mean, I may, I may, look, we'll see how much I know when the expert comes
+
+[43:29] on, and we'll see whether or not, we'll see what happens. I'm happy to have someone on, and I would love someone to come on and tell me that, you know, the red flags that are
+
+[43:38] raised, when I look at it, are not red flags and that I'm, you know, a bad or a knowledgeable person. You typically don't talk, you typically don't talk about diet and health much. I was asked specifically about it. I avoid it. Not because I don't think about it, but because in general, I think most
+
+[43:54] proscriptive diet plans are horse hockey. unless someone proves to me otherwise. My general idea is because the human body is so freaking
+
+[44:04] complex that most of the data that people rely on. And this is this is not I'm not talking off the top of my head here, this is based on not specifically the gaps diet, because I haven't read about it, but like much, much wading through horse, like scientific horse hockey, on many different diets, like salt, MSG, um, you know,
+
+[44:27] autointoxication. The whole load of horse crap that we've been handed by people over the past 150 years. I am just, I am extremely cautious about people telling people that
+
+[44:39] they, how they can change their lives by manipulating the extraordinarily complex and poorly understood system that is the human body.
+
+[44:45] Right, fair enough. We have to end Dave. Thank you so much, Kenji, for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you. The book is the food lab, better home cooking through science, available everywhere. That's it, Dave. All right, All right.
+
+[45:04] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:23] And we're about to start.
+
+[0:52] This Heritage Radio Network program is sponsored by Open Table. For more information, visit opentable.com. This is Chef Emily Peterson, host of Sharp and Hot. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:17] Hello, and welcome to Computers. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:26] Brooklyn, every Tuesday, you know, like 12-ish, 1245, 1250. It depends on whether we have a show coming after kicking us out or, you know, something else to do. You know how it is. Call in your questions 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined in the studio as usual, Witness Dasia. Oh, the hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Doing all right. Yeah, we got Jackie molecules. Jack in the engineering booth. How you doing, Jack? I'm good. What up with the eye patch man? All right. All right. We'll talk about the eye patch in a minute. I'm doing Pirate Dave right now. And we're joined by we'll use like political terminology. Engineer Joe. We got Engineer Joe in the in the booth today. How you doing, Joe? afternoon. So if you should, and by the way, when I say engineer, I don't mean like rocket engineer or automobile engineer, like a kitchen equipment engineer. So if you guys have any questions about, for instance, why does my X, Y,
+
+[2:22] Z do X, Y, and Z? You can call and ask Joe and maybe he can tell you why X, Y, and Z does X, Y, and Z, right? hope so. Yeah. All right. I should provide an interesting perspective here on the program. So, why am I wearing an eye patch? This is an excellent question. So, it turns out that, uh, so I am the, uh, I do not have a detached retina. That is not what happened. Let's just let's start with that. Let's start with that. do not have a detached retina. However, uh, a, you know, mid 40s, you know, uh, white dude who uh, was born like very nearsighted, like I was, you know,
+
+[3:00] I had the laser surgery so I can see, well, could see normally, right? Like, we are prime candidates, like white, male, like, mid-age, uh, near-sighted folk, prime suspects for retinal detachment. So on Sunday, I start getting like a floater, right? You know, like, you know what I'm saying, like, a floater in your eye, like, uh, but usually floaters, they look kind of like gray. You know what I mean? So I didn't, uh, I didn't think much of it. It was bigger than normal. I was like, this sucks. You know what I mean? And then I did, you know, my my daily, I hate to even say these words, workout routine, right? Yeah, I know it's terrible. It awful. I don't even want to think about it, right? I do test, I detest it. Anyways. So I did that. And then, like, all of a sudden, my, it looked like the beginning of a James Bond, like, movie situation, like, you know, some golden eye crap, like just like swirls of like black,
+
+[3:58] like galaxies and stars of dust and like blackness and like big inky swirls. You know how like when someone gets shot in the James Bond thing and all the blood pours out of them like ink and shadow effect? Like this is what my vision was like in my eye. So I'm like, meh, meh. And so I go online and they're like, yeah, yeah, floaters. I'm like, it seems worse than a float. like, if it's flashing, if you have flashing lights. This is when you know you're getting a detached ratina. Or if like a portion of your vision just literally goes blank, like blank. Not like looking through a James Bond film, but like blank, detachment. I'm like, nah, not a big deal. So at dinner, because I cooked dinner that night. By the way, we could talk about dinner. I have my new favorite go-to quick meal. We can talk about that, man. Anyways. So I could tell the people at dinner. Yeah, I tell the people at dinner, I'm like, hey, uh, so, um, I can't really read and it's hard for me to concentrate when I'm slicing
+
+[4:48] and, uh, I'm sorry if I seem a little distracted, but like, you know, I have a James Bond movie going in my right eye. And they're like, what the what's wrong with you? And so then like I called my mom and mom's like, what's wrong with you? You could be having a cat retina. I was like, the internet tells me no, ma. She's like, idiot, idiot, idiot, idiot. So I had to go to see a doctor. Luckily, all I did was my eye sack ripped away from the edge, tore open a blood vessel and sprayed blood all over the inside of my eye, which you can see.
+
+[5:13] But, um, Anyways, so apparently I am at an increased risk for rental detachment over the next 2 weeks. So please, nobody who sees me on the street. Please don't punch me in the right side of the head. You know what I mean? Like, if you see me on the street, try to avoid your your primary urge, which will be to punch me in the right side of the head. tough, man. I know. Like, go for a kidney blow, something that's not going to send too much shock to the head, you know what I mean? Like, you know, maybe if you hit me in the kidney, maybe I could get some match bleeding, bleeding down low, bleeding up high. Could be good, you know what I mean? So anyways, so yeah, so it's taking me out of strenuous activity for the next couple of weeks. But, oh, and I have to wear, I don't have to wear an eye patch. In fact, my doctor says that I should wear the eye patch as little as possible
+
+[5:57] because he wants me to be looking through the eye in case something terrible happens so I can rush to the hospital and they can like glue all the stuff back together, should start coming
+
+[6:04] apart like a poorly glued model airplane. Uh, but the, uh, but it's impossible for me to read. So there's no way I can do, there's no way I can do the radio show without the eye patch. I didn't bring the cowboy hat. Yesterday I had the cowboy hat and the eye patch, and I have to say, I have never in my life gotten such looks of respect on the street as I did when I was walking around with like a vest, like, you know, like a puffy vest, like my, you know, my brown cowboy hat and an eye patch.
+
+[6:31] People were like, I don't know, but I don't want to not gonna... I don't know, but I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna mess with this one. This one. No, no. You know what I mean? You know what I mean, Jack? Yeah, it's a great look. Yeah, you like the eye patch? What's the go-to quick meal, though? Oh, yeah, go too quick meal. I do have a collar. we'll stay I told them to stay patient. Well, when we do the collar. We'll be able to collar's problem and then we'll talk about some go-to quick meal. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, guys, this is Coleman from Brooklyn. How it going? all right. How you doing? Not bad, thanks. Um, 2 questions. First of all, I'm going to Vancouver this coming weekend. I want to see if you have any restaurant recommendations up there. You know what? You know what that's for? That's for the chat room. I haven't been to Vancouver in, I think, like 4 years, and I went with, you know, the food writer out there, Fong. It was good, but I can't remember. I went to like whatever the top rated sushi restaurant was in Vancouver and it was quite good, but I don't remember the name of it. You know what I mean? And so much has happened in Vancouver over the past, uh, over the past couple of years, I would hesitate even to, have you been there recently? Did you go to their styles when you went to Seattle and Portland? No. No? Joe, you've been to Vancouver recently? In the mid 90s. That's even earlier. I was there too, in the mid 90s. It was crazy time. That's when all of Hong Kong was buying up Vancouver when that, yeah. Yeah, interesting time. Yes. But no, Jack, you gonna put that out to the chat room? Yeah I will. All right, put, uh, so I'm sorry, I don't have anything specific, but we'll get the chat room working on it and you can, uh, you know, get the cooking issues crew winging on that. Do you have any other questions that maybe I know the answer. one other one I have a friend whose birthday is coming up who just turned vegetarian. And I, you know, I don't approve of that, but it's a friend. Uh, and I want to see if you had any good vegetarian cookbook that you actually like and thought would be worth uh, getting as a present. Yeah, sure. You need to get a Michael Napkins herbivoracious. Boom. Which one again? Michael Natkins, herbivoracious. Okay. Herbivoracious. Michael Natkin does work with Chef Steps. and even Nastasia, hater of vegans everywhere. Thinks it's a good book, right? You just heard Nastasio. Say it again. See, you heard Nastasio Lopez actually praising something on air, if you can believe that. Nastasio, I'm proud to have caused that. Yeah, yeah. Nastasio Lopez has actually cooked recipes out of this
+
+[8:45] book, right? That's true. That, like, yeah, that's crazy endorsement. Now, if I might go forward. Uh, and Snazi Nastasia is going to disagree with me here. I would go purchase any one of the number of excellent Indian vegetarian cookbooks out there. The one that I happen to own is extremely old and so it doesn't, uh, I mean, I don't even know whether it's current. It's not really current anymore, but I have the old Yamuna Devi one, but, you know, anyone who's become
+
+[9:14] vegetarian, better get themselves very, very acquainted with Indian food, lickety. my go-to. My girlfriend's vegetarians, so I cook a lot of Indian at home. Yeah. And let me say this. I wouldn't worry so much about, well, you know, you're not the vegetarian. you don't care. But like the point is, is that is that like a lot of times I think when someone, I mean, the great thing about Indian, uh, cooking, vegetarian cooking is that they have so many centuries of practice at doing this properly in a very kind of uh, integrated in a holistic
+
+[9:43] way. So it's not just trying to glue the vegetarian precepts onto like some other form of eating. So it's really a good place to start. But I find that a lot of people, uh, when they start out, get rather daunted because of the spice mixtures
+
+[9:58] and, uh, you know, all of the, all of these other things. And I think that, you know, I don't know how kind of creative your friend is, but a lot of the techniques that are used in Indian cooking or the basic flavor combinations, even without the huge mix of spices in the masalas and
+
+[10:17] whatnot, are extremely useful. So, you know, like, you know, if you're making like a, like, you know, mint
+
+[10:23] coconut chutney, it can be really, really complicated, or it can literally be, I'm going to throw a coconut with some mint and coriander and ginger and some spice,
+
+[10:33] you know, and a couple nuts in a blender and go with some water and oil and bang.
+
+[10:37] you know what I mean? Like super fresh. So I think, like, some willingness to not necessarily adhere to the letter of what's going on in those cookbooks is very
+
+[10:45] helpful, because you're not shooting for authentic. You're shooting for delicious, right? And things can be authentic and delicious or they can be, uh, your own creation and delicious, you know? You got that, Red. So that's those are my suggestions. Cool. All right. Hey, thanks so much. Hey, no problem. Hey, Jack, do we get anyone weighing in Vancouver yet? No, but I just texted you and Stas. We have a 1st time chatter here. Jay Heaton just made a enemies of quality t-shirt design. Wow. You got to look at it. I just texted it to you in Stas. Do you see it? I'm looking through my one, as Bob Dylan would say, my one dying eye. For those of you that listen to the hurricane, do people still talk about that, about the hurricane? About Bob Dylan. No, about the song. Wow, tomatoes in the fridge. We got to send this to Daniel Gritzer and see what Dan Daniel Gritzer famously said that I was the enemy of truth by saying that putting tomatoes in the
+
+[11:36] fridge. You can go back. we can reference whatever episode that was where Daniel is actually on. But he said, you know, I famously, not famously, for me, often say, rather, that putting tomatoes in the fridge makes you the enemy
+
+[11:49] equality because, as we all know, tomatoes turn mealy when they're stored in the fridge for a long time, it's more severe of a problem in tomatoes that have large amounts of flesh,
+
+[12:00] right? When I say flesh, I mean the actual, like, granular part of the flesh, as opposed to just seeds and water, like a cherry tomato has. Did I ever tell you guys how bitter cherry tomato skins are? Well, we're getting on them at. Anyway, so I said it was like a super enemy of quality situation. Um, because it's true. And so I tend to leave my tomatoes on the counter, and this is especially true when I shop for very high-end tomatoes in August at the farmer's market. And Daniel said to me, look it, when you take especially not such a great tomato or a tomato that's ripe, and you leave it on the counter, it loses, it loses a lot of its qualities and becomes not good compared to one that's stored in a fridge for a day or 2 and then removed and allowed to come up to temperature.
+
+[12:46] And he had a lot of things. And I think that's maybe correct, except for when I buy when I buy garbage tomatoes, I don't really care because they're garbage. You know what I mean? When I buy like a really good tomato, I always buy
+
+[12:59] them. I buy ones I'm going to eat today and they're ready. I buy ones I'm going to eat tomorrow and they have like a day left and I turn them upside down. In other words, the stem side down because the stem side is the
+
+[13:12] firmest side of the tomatoes. Tomatoes ripen from the part that's furthest away from the plant towards the stem. So the stem is the stem end is the most is the strongest part of the tomato. So it's not going to break when you store it that way. It usually has a natural resting point, and you won't burst the skin, and I let them sit out, you know, on a cool counter. Or if I'm in a snooty mood, my wine storage container. That Styles made fun of me because just because I was having to give in as a gift, like one of those little wine holding refrigerators. Anastasia thinks that I walk around with a monocle. I don't. I walk around with an eye patch. Duh. And boom stars. So there goes you in your hopes of seeing me as the planter's peanut man. Um, one of those wine cool. like such a classic example of a gift somebody would give. Right? Yeah. Right? And then you're like, I guess I'll use it. Yeah, but you know what it's really good for, Jack? Tomatoes. clearly. You know what else? Wine. know what else? Chocolate. Oh yeah. Chocolate. Good for chocolate. Yeah. And so you know what it's holding now? box after box of box wine because everyone knows that's how I rock it now. box lines in the box. Have you been converted the box wines yet, does? No? Anyway. So Daniel is basically saying that if I say that you're an enemy equality for putting a tomato in the fridge, I'm being too simplistic and not taking into account the way that the majority of people consume tomatoes here in the good old US of A, and you know
+
+[14:31] what? He's probably right. So what's your go-to quick meal? Go to quick meal. So I forget, I forget how the situation started. I think it was because Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink said something about Trinidad
+
+[14:45] Food, and I somehow went into some rabbit hole on Trinidad or something, and I saw this dish for, um,
+
+[14:52] now you know yams aren't yams. You know, in America, when we say yam, We really mean sweet potato. Did you know that, Jack? I suspected as much. Yeah. So the sweet potato is not a yam. It is an entirely different species. Like what we call yam. I forget the name of the actual thing, but it's like, it's like a something
+
+[15:13] ipani- it's like a batata ipani moment, something. I ran into this problem when a recipe called for sweet potatoes and yams, and I was like, wait, what? Yeah, but most like 99.9% of Americans, when they say yam, what they mean is a different color of sweet potato.
+
+[15:27] Right? So they're still talking about 2 different varieties of the same exact plant. Neither of which is a yam, right? Yam is an entirely different tuber, that is neither a potato nor a sweet potato, and there's a variety of
+
+[15:41] them, yams. Anyway, the particular one I was using is called name. Anyway. So it was a mixture of, are you familiar with the French dish Brandad? Have I talked about this dish on the? So you know Bron Dodd? Neobrandad? anyone, Brondad? anyone, Brondad? So it's like mashed potatoes and like shredded salt cod. Yes. And like with like butter, like butter and cream. finished typically with walnut oil. Uh, you know, I think it's Basque or some crap, you know, right on the border. I think it's right on the border. So anyway, so I saw this like smashed yam and saltfish recipe with like peppers and onions. I was like, bang. So I don't make I don't do it traditional. I do like a huge bunch of sautéed tomatoes, a huge bunch of sautéed red and green because sorry, I can't help myself. I cant just type many peppers. you know, whatever. Uh, and the oh, it's super simple. You just do that. Oh, and the trick with this. You know how any of you guys do Catholic, any of you guys do Catholic Christmas Eve? The hell? anyone? Catholic Christmas Eve? I mean, I have. Good. So what do you so what do you eat on a classic, Italian classic, Catholic? Fish. Right. So you're eating fish. So one of the great fishes you eat, of course, is bakala, right? So bakala is the is the salt cod. It's reconstituted now when you're eating Italian Christmas Eve dinner. The problem with the bakala in this situation is you have to buy the nice big pieces and you have to reconstitute them over over a couple of days to get the right texture and the right taste. And good dried cod is quite expensive. However, for this recipe, or if you're making cod fritters, do you like bacalagitos? You like those stars? Yeah, they're delicious. You like those Joe, Jack, you ever have these? Yeah, they're delicious, right? The advantage of these things is you can use the crappier, thin pieces of cod that aren't fit for serving on Christmas Eve, but still have a lot of that flavor. So all you do is you throw, you throw all the cod into, into a big pot of water like you would for pasta with no salt. Duh. You take it from cold. You bring it up just below to a simmer. You let it ride for a couple minutes, dump it, do it once more, and the cod's ready to use within like 10 minutes. You pull it out, you hack it up with a knife. You throw it into the saute after you're done. You just, you know, peel your yam, which gets really, really slippery and
+
+[17:52] gross, uh, chop it, boil it, smash it up. I add a boatload of butter and oil to it, and I serve it with limes and avocados, tomatoes, and that's
+
+[18:01] it. Lettuce. Boom. Don, boom, Don. Fast. Delicious. You could put any sort of topping you could put on. It's not traditional, maybe, Trinidad, but like, you must have avocados, and you must have line. If you don't have those 2 things, you don't deserve to have, you know, the meal. Anyway, that's my go to now because I can I can get it on the table in under an hour and, you know, it's unusual for people that haven't had it yet. So it's cheap, super cheap. anyway. Nice, can we take a really quick break so we can get that out of the way? Sure. Yep, let's do it. Coming back with cooking issues.
+
+[18:37] Breaks.
+
+[18:44] Open Table is a proud sponsor of Heritage radio network. Open Table is home to the world's largest dining network, seating over 17 million diners every month. Their technology solutions help restaurants run and grow their businesses. That means providing memorable hospitality to every guest, streamlining front of house
+
+[19:05] operations, and optimizing seating to seat more diners and drive more business. Chefs, restaurants, and other industry professionals can find more tips and best practices for running a successful restaurant on their blog, open for business at
+
+[19:18] openforbusiness.opentable.com.
+
+[19:29] And welcome back to cooking issues. All right. So, on from that. Did you think I sounded like a good dish there, Jack? Yeah I'm into it. Joe? Yes, sounded great. Yeah, very fast, very cheap. Okay. I'm a cheap man. you know that? What? I'm super cheap. I'm like, I like being generous with food quantities, but if I can, I have
+
+[19:55] no, I feel no compunction, except when buying steak and cheese, to buy like super expensive stuff.
+
+[20:02] You know what I'm saying? Wait, wait, just steak and cheese. Well, I'm just thinking 2 things off the top of my head. I don't buy cheap steak. I don't buy cheap cheese. I mean, I don't buy expensive cheese explicitly, but most of the cheeses that I like end up costing a good deal of money. You know what I mean? So what I tend to do is I try to find the highest quality supplier of the cheese at a reasonable price, which means I end up eating a lot of Italian cheese here in New York because I go to
+
+[20:27] DiPolo's because DiPolo's is like the greatest Italian cheese shop. By the way, this is super depressing. I was in Milan last week, which is why we didn't do the show. And did I tell you this, Stas, like, what I found depressing was I went to like some of the high-end markets in, uh, in, you know, in
+
+[20:44] Milan, and there was nothing that I saw that I was like, I need to bring this home because I can't get this here in New
+
+[20:52] York, and I was really depressed by that. Like, that, you know, there was stuff I couldn't bring home because it's illegal, like meats and stuff like this.
+
+[21:01] But, you know, most of the cheeses and I tried them. Like, the quality difference wasn't that great. It wasn't like I was getting a lot of loss bringing it over. And maybe it's because Milan, you know, Milan isn't the heart of the super
+
+[21:12] microartiginale, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, you know, farmer with his cap and all this other stuff.
+
+[21:19] Had some delicious liquors over there. But yeah, isn't that depressing? I couldn't find anything that I was like, oh, yeah. And it's not like I went to like, I did also go to supermarkets while I was there because I always, when I travel, go to supermarkets to see what people's supermarkets are
+
+[21:33] like. And I recommend anyone do this. Like take a good 20 minutes out, everyone passes a supermarket when they're in a foreign country, go into the supermarket and see how they see how people shop. Do you like doing that or do you not like it? Yeah. And weird stuff there anyway. But Pomboy is, I was just super depressed by that because almost always I can find some crap that, you know, I'm like,
+
+[21:52] oh, man, that's awesome. I don't know Depressing. But I did have a lot of good risotto since, you know, Milan, good risotto, and I did have the big Milanese breaded cutlet. You know what I'm talking about? You know, they call it the elephant because they leave the bone on it. So do you like cutlets? Do you like do you like those things, Joe? Yes, I do. They're delicious. I had an interesting risotto at a restaurant called Daniel, no relation to
+
+[22:15] R. Daniel here. He's an Italian, Daniel. Get this. Licorice and lemon. do you think? don't know. I mean, would you be willing to try it? Licorice and lemon. Licorice and lemon. risotto? Risotto. Delicious. Really delicious. And Nastasia, you would have liked it perfectly cooked. The best cooked. So I had a couple of, of, you know, well-reviewed restaurants in Milan I went to that had the risotto that was like a little bit starched out and gloopy on the
+
+[22:44] outside. You hate that, right? with the core that's cooked all the way through all the way through. You hate, hate, right? Hate, hate. And where the grains come up in big clumps of stuff. hate, right? This thing, like, all the grains were still themselves, but they had a nice, like, you know, awesome, like, texture on the outside, still
+
+[23:06] not perfectly cooked. Best. Anyway. Also, I went to this crazy restaurant whose name escapes me where check this out, Stas. I think it's called, like, Bocon Davino or something like this. You go in, they tell you about this one, you go in and they just, Joe and Jack, you'll like this. You order nothing, which already I like. I hate making choices. I hate choices. Choices are the worst. Like every day, your life, you have to make choices all the time. Where am I going to go? What am I going to do? Who am I going to hang out with? What bearing am I going to use in the centrifuge? Blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? Like choices, all freaking day. And then all of a sudden, you go to a place and they're like, you know what? crap on you. And here's what they do. They just bring, like, plate after plate after plate of salumi, and they're just chopping it off, like all different, like, you know, like these weird ones from like
+
+[23:56] Nortia, they're sliced thick, you know, hams, all good stuff. But they just open a bottle of wine, bring it to you open because I think they cheat. I think they reuse the bottle and refill them. But that's not important. It's very host-friendly. They bring the bottle of wine. They pour you the 2 glasses because there's only 2 of us eating, and then they just put the bottle of wine on the table with the 1st course. No choice. You don't get to choose a bottle of wine because that's not your job. That's the Somoye's job. That's freaking chest, right? And it's his restaurant. There's a picture of him with his kid in the backpack in the mountains, you know, because it's very close to the Alps. Anyway. So I'm like, oh, this is kind of nice. It kind of refreshing and you can pour yourself more. Then they come with the next plate of salumi, chaka, chaka, chaka, chaka,
+
+[24:32] chaka, and the next open bottle of wine, and they pour in 2 new glasses, and they put that freaking bottle on the table, and they don't take away the other bottle. Then comes, then comes the freaking pasta, and the pastas in, you know, they serve it like, like old school, like, what I assume is an old school, like, 70s, like, kind of like, this is the kind of cheese, not cheese, literally, but, you know, cheesy thing that
+
+[24:55] I cut, kitchy thing that I love. They had the half Parmesan bowl that they tossed, like the, uh, Taiatalia, and then
+
+[25:02] they, and they serve it out of that with another freaking bottle of wine. Then comes the cheese course with another freaking bottle of wine. Then comes the dessert. They brought a dessert with, like, some sort of local, like, Vincento style thing that wasn't Vincento. was from near Milan. Then the Garapa in an open freaking bottle. So our table, with no choice. A table is just like littered with glasses and obviously I didn't ate all the salumis. there wasn't any of that. But it was a good experience. And you know what? Some idiot walks in. I'm talking, I don't speak Italian. So the other guy's saying, so maybe it walks in and says, it says, everything on Trip Advisor, it's rated on Trip Advisor. Every single thing is like, you do not choose. You do not choose. There is no choice. And by the way, there's no choice. Some guy comes in, he's like, um, There's no choices here. I kind of thought, you know, we could choose what we wanted. And the guy was like, yeah, hey, leave. You know, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, yeah, people. What makes people think they'll make the right choice? There's A no reason why anyone should make the right choice. And if you have, like, if you are picky, you should not go to a restaurant, whose whole shtick
+
+[26:07] is you have no choice. You know what I'm saying? I mean, eh, whatever. Wish there were more of those here. I love the no choice. Yeah, me too. Well, that's like, you know, even places here that are no choice. It really is like marginal choice. You can walk into like a place that, you know, has like a prefix only, like, you know, 3
+
+[26:27] course and you can say, oh, yes, but this and but that. But this guy doesn't even tell you. There's no menu. There's no, there's no, here's what you might have kind of situation. Just shows up. There's no opportunity to be like, I don't like that. anyway. And we went to the place in Greece that was like that, Stas. No choice. As Jeffrey Steingarden's wife, Karen says, no choice, no problem. By the way, I'm going to talk about this on the air while we're here. Nastasio Lopez is the queen of not putting up with crap that she hates. Okay? It is a well-known fact here at Roberta's Pizzeria. And I love Roberta. You know that, Jack, right? Yes. Right. It's a well-known fact that they have greens in this restaurant. How do I know this? Because they always have specials. With greens, right? For the past year, Nastasi and I, every single time we sit down, every Tuesday, we're like, can we get greens on our
+
+[27:25] pizza and stars, what's the answer? Yeah, no greens on the pizza. So, they're like, we, like, how about you just take greens and throw them on a pizza? Like, and what do they say? Right. So, Nastasia, for the past couple of weeks, has turned Roberta's pizzeria into a BYOG restaurant. She literally goes to the store on the way to the radio program. She has to leave 5 minutes earlier, picks up the, what's your favorite green on pizza stars? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, baby Arugula. Oh, yeah. With some oil. brings it, and then we put it on our own pizza. But how crazy is that? And they never say anything about it. They're never giving us crap about it. Yeah, but then what if like, what if another table's like, I want one of those. They should start stalking the freaking greens. For the pizza. Hey, you know what? You know what? I should have I should have the head of the pizza kitchen come in. We should we should talk about this on there. Here's the thing. They could say, hey, I'm going to charge you 6 bucks. And I'd be like, okay. Anyway, whatever. So it's a BYOG restaurant. It's the only outside food we can bring into Roberta says greens for our pizza. whatever. Okay, some questions. Um, 2 quick questions for the year of starch research. Uh, I've been making the flour tortilla recipe in the new Stupak taco cookbook written with Alex Dupak and Jordana Rothman. Do have a copy of that? No. Me neither. Show us what kind of friends we are. We don't even rate a copy of the Facebook. Thanks. Of course, I'm sure we would have gotten a copy had we gone to the book launch party, but we were
+
+[29:01] doing we were doing other stuff. James Beard Award nominee. Really? For the book? Well, I hope they win. Yeah, me too. Not that I've read it yet, but I mean, like quick aside, we
+
+[29:11] had, we did panels at South by, and Alex Tupac was on the panel and he is awesome. Yeah, really good on panels. That guy tells you like it is. Yeah, he's also really, really good at demos. You ever seen him do a cooking demo? Really good. Like, hardcore, like everything, like, easy anti-me when it comes to demos, like, literally the polar opposite. Like in this, he does a lot of stuff. So in that way, it's like similar, but like every single thing he does is perfectly tightened down and like neat and clean and comes off like a
+
+[29:44] machine, right? Whereas you... It's like, imagine a machine that, like, where parts are flying off of it at all points and, like,
+
+[29:53] just like oil and grease and gas are spraying everywhere. That's more like how I operate, right? Yeah. Stas is like, I know that too well. Anyway. Um, Lately, I've been making flour tortillas from the Stupac Taco Cookbook, and I've noticed some variation across other recipes I've seen.
+
+[30:11] Some say to use cold water, others say to use very hot water. Some say to need the dough well and rest it a while to develop gluten, although probably mean they mean relaxed. But anyway, well, right, resting a short while is going to relax it, resting a long time will let the gluten hydrate and develop, whatever. Well, others recommend a very short need and a short rest to keep the dough from getting tough. What's actually going on here. I know nothing will be as good as fresh masa tacos. Now, listen. I too, and apparently, so Alex, because I read it, you know, we originally were saying that the only good tortilla is a corn
+
+[30:46] tortilla. I have recanted this because the issue isn't that flour tortillas can't be delicious. They can be. Obviously they are. The issue is that corn tortilla, which is like, to me, the base of the
+
+[30:59] cuisine, was so completely disrespected and debased here in the United
+
+[31:05] States, that, and even apparently in Mexico in a lot of places, that you almost needed to make a statement. And so you needed to go all in for corn tortillas, right? And let's be honest, corn tortillas are a lot harder to freaking make than a flower tortilla if you're going to start with raw corn. Just a lot harder. You know what I mean? Oh, really a lot harder. Uh, so therein, the fact that there's, uh, you know, a lot more of an art, uh, and a lot more going into making a corn tortilla, and also such a huge quality difference between the craft that you buy
+
+[31:42] and the, um, and, you know, what, you know, what you can make. I think that is what led people like me, people like Alex, many people to
+
+[31:50] say that the flower tortilla is garbage and that, like, you should only focus on the corn tortilla. Not true. Flour tortilla delicious, right? Uh, So, you know, I wouldn't, I'm going to, I'm going to dial back a lot that I've said and I've never, I've never, frankly, made a lot of flour tortillas. I'm not an expert in them because I have spent all my time on corn, but I'm here to tell you that I am now a believer that the
+
+[32:15] flour tortilla is just as honorable to make as a corn tortilla, just not as difficult. Now, so what's going on in a flour tortilla, flour tortilla is a mixture of basically lard, flour, water salt, right? And most of the recipes, and I took a glance, not in his book because, of course, we don't have a copy because, of course, we didn't go to the
+
+[32:35] party, like I already told you. And like, you know, Stas and I aren't in the business of like shelling out. Actually, you know, that's an actually, we buy, we buy books. We should just buy their freaking book and support Alex and Jordana, whatever. You know, you put the lard, which is, you know, has a, um, uh, is, what's the word I'm looking for? It has a lower melt pointer,
+
+[32:54] it's an oilier, has a more less solid than butter, right? Into the flour. And then stupak adds hot, hot, or very warm water to it. Not hot enough to affect the actual flour. My guess is, is that, unlike a biscuit, where you're looking to keep your, uh, lard particles, or your butter particles, or your shortening
+
+[33:15] particles, separate so that you create flake layers in between, um, uh, the pieces of flour. So if you're making like, because a biscuit dough, depending on the style that you make, but if you're doing a flaky style biscuit
+
+[33:27] dough as opposed to the ones that are done with scoops, you know, like the, if you're doing an old school flaky thing, you really want the butter things to say separate.
+
+[33:36] So you you put it into the flour, you work it into your hands, until it resembles like a cornmeal with some larger pieces of butter, you do the minimum amount
+
+[33:44] of, um, of work on the, on the dough because you don't want it to get tough in any way, right?
+
+[33:50] And then you bake them. The butter then melts, the water that's in the butter, expands, you get pockets, you get flaky things in between the thing. Everybody's happy. everyone likes your biscuits. Go. By the way, Stas, I can't talk to her about it because she doesn't like biscuits. I need that sign again because I can't believe there's someone next to me who doesn't like biscuits. Joe, you like biscuits, right? Are you a fluffy or a flaky? Flaky. Flaky, Jack, fluffy or flaky? Sorry about that. I'm flaky. Flaky. Really? I used to be exclusively flaky and I, that's how I make them. I have, in the past couple of years, come to respect the fluffy biscuit. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're different. They're different in the way that, like, northern cornbread and southern cornbread are different. Anyway. All right, everybody's finished. Let me finish this tortilla. Let me say you. Okay. So, anyhow, I think what the hot water is for there is to literally like help melt the lard out because here what the lard is doing isn't forming little pockets to
+
+[34:49] leaven to make something flaky because that's not what it's all about. And there's going to be enough water on the inside and it's going to be thin enough that you're going to get puffing just from the hot kamal where you're cooking the tortilla. Here, what the hot water is doing is causing the lard to run out and mix with the
+
+[35:04] flower particles and prevent. This is my guess. I don't know, prevent the gluten from forming. And so the hot water is actually, in this case, going to prevent excess gluten development by causing the lard to be more evenly distributed in the
+
+[35:18] dough. This is a 100% guess and not based in any sort of actual knowledge. This is just me thinking off the top of my head. And with that collar, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Alex from Brooklyn. First, I wanted to give you a quick update. I had called in about doing an outdoor deep fryer and you would recommend it a walk instead. I ended up buying a propane wok burner, and it is awesome. It's so, it's so perfect. So thank you for your help. And now my quandary is I do an annual pig roast in Prospect Park. And I was wondering about doing a whole £75 pig low temp. Is that a good strategy or do you have something else you recommend? Let me think here. So I'm trying to look in my head. I can picture a £200 pig and I can picture a £20 pig. A £75 pig is what, like 3 feet long? Yeah, give or take. It fits in one of those big, uh, like hunting coolers pretty nicely with a lot of ice. Got it. Oh, so you're gonna do the cooler method, huh? Here's the issue with low temping a whole pig. The loin is always gonna be stringy. I mean, it's always gonna have that, like, cook too long taste. You know what I mean? So you can you can do it. It won't be bad, but it's going to be best on, um, on the legs, obviously, are going to come out, uh, better. The majority of the belly will be good, except for like there's one or 2 muscles that don't have a lot of kind of fat or connective tissue in there and that they're going to end up being dry. You know what might be an interesting technique that I've never tried? What if you, and I was talking off the top of my head here. What if you were to, um, in place in the pig, rub curing salt into the loin
+
+[37:06] section, so that you almost got some cure in the loin section, and then, see, I've always wanted to do is like, almost like take the, take the major muscles, like almost disassemble the pig, cook it all perfectly, reassemble it, and then do the roast off to get the skin kind of crackly and awesome, but I've never done
+
+[37:25] it. You know what I, my real dream is, is to do the, uh, Colombian style where you take the whole skin off, like the
+
+[37:34] letchona, where you take the whole skin off, turn it into a cape, then cook all the different pieces kind of separately, reassemble with meat glue, and then roast and crisp off the whole thing, and then
+
+[37:45] meanwhile retherming the stuff on the inside. Like, that would be the ultimate. That kind of hard. that's kind of hardcore. It's a dream. very hardcore. It's a dream and someday I will do it. Look, it's going to work. It's just, like, there are always muscles in a pig that I don't think want to be cooked that long. That's all. You know what I mean? It's the same reason why I have my issues with a whole pig barbecue that I think that there are some cuts that are, you know, better done, um, other ways. It'll still be good. It's gonna be good. I just, it's hard to get a whole animal cooked right all at the same time.
+
+[38:19] But you know what? What I would do is test it a little bit. I would get like the relevant pieces in small bags before you do the cook and then and that's what I did when I was working on the turkey recipe when I was working on the on the bionic turkey. I don't know if you have, you know, where I ripped all the bones out of the turkey and then reassembled the skeleton and did all that stuff. The way that we did the tests on that was, 1st thing we did is I went and bought turkey breasts and turkey legs and just ran a bunch of side by size and said, okay, this level of
+
+[38:49] salt, cooked for this many hours. How does it taste? And then at this temperature, and then choosing things that were within a degree or 2 of each other so I could get them to come together at the same time.
+
+[38:59] And that's the way I developed the recipe. So if I was going to do a whole pig, I would do the same thing. I would choose some of the larger muscles, I would get like a little piece of the belly, a little piece of the, oh, you're not going to have that much of it. A little piece of the loin, a little piece of the, of like parts of the leg, and I would just run some
+
+[39:14] time Thames to see kind of where it was harmonious, and then see whether I could do something like add more or less salt to
+
+[39:21] the, uh, to the parts that like might get stringy or maybe cure them so that they stay um, kind of better over a long cook period. Because if they're cured, they'll hold up to that long ride better than
+
+[39:33] not. So, I mean, that's what I would do. And then figure out how much of a crazy person you want to be in terms of disassembling and reassembling this pig before you do the final roast. Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. Oh, and uh, an easy way, um, you're going to do, how are you going to roast it? You going to get like a cajachina afterwards to do the finish, but those are too slow. Are you going to do like a big spit? What are you going to do to do the finish the finish on it? So I've done the cagaccina the last three, 4 years and I've just been really disappointed in the results and I'm ready to up my game. So that's why I was thinking low temp. But I may have to just go spit for the whole thing. Remember, if you do low temp. It gives you the ability to go higher temp on the spit so that you can, or you could do, here's another thing. You could do low temp for insurance, and if you get, if you circulate, if you have something whose flavor is amazing, right, then you can circulate it in that almost as though you're kind of poaching it.
+
+[40:30] I'd run some tests 1st and then pull it out, dry it out, and then just spit it at a higher temperature because it's already been cooked. And then you can focus just on the skin. that might be a good way around it The other way is the low temp it, pull it out when it's hot, let the skin get really, really, really, really
+
+[40:44] dry off of the low temp, really dry, and then just do the ladle fry over the whole thing.
+
+[40:50] And so for that, you know, you need a big, super dangerous, but, you know, you hold it above the oil, and then you just have ladles and hot fat,
+
+[40:57] just go, go, go, go, go. This is a huge, terrible ignition. You're putting yourself in danger of igniting it. However, it is delicious. to do things this way. And what about bags for low temping of big pig? So they make vacuum bags that are meant for putting comforters
+
+[41:17] in, and they're not technically food grade, but I'm not going to say to use them. I've used them. You know what I mean? You have to, you know, be a little bit, a little bit careful. But that's why if you had a liquid, you could just use oil, but it's a lot, it's a lot of freaking oil, and oil takes longer to cook. So you have to be, if you can't do a test for time, where
+
+[41:40] you wear your time test is in water, and then assume that your time to cook is going to be the same when you're using oil. It's not. And you are going to need multiple circulators and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, uh, you know, it's a lot of freaking oil. Or, like I say, you could use one of these bags, but the issue with a pig is that the internal cavity of the pig is going to be, um, is going to be hollow and filled with
+
+[42:03] air, and it's really going to ruin your, um, your cook times.
+
+[42:07] So, like, the best way to do it is to literally, like, you could almost, but then if it's flat, it'll be hard to reassemble it. That's why like when I do the turkey, I literally pipe hot fat inside the animal so that we're cooking in both directions at once.
+
+[42:20] And you got to remember that a £75 pig isn't that thick on the inside.
+
+[42:26] And so, you know, you can cook it a lot faster if you're piping the hot liquid into the cavity of the animal using
+
+[42:33] 2 circulators, which is what I typically do when I'm working on larger, larger creatures. And wouldn't a nova work or do am I going to need to get one of the poly-science ones? Um, I forget which one of the circulators I have has a problem pumping fat because of the
+
+[42:50] viscosity. It auto shuts down, but I don't remember which one it is. The new poly-science ones, I don't think Philip wants you to put oil through them. This is again, like everything is about the testing. So, like, you don't want to show up with a pig in a circulator and then all of a sudden realize your technique's not going to work, but it's like super easy to just throw a circulator
+
+[43:12] into, like, you know, a small container of oil, fire it
+
+[43:16] up. You're not going to ruin the circulator, right? At least I have not yet ruined a circulator. Let's rephrase that. And, you know, just see whether it runs. And one of them, and I forget which one it is, cuts out when you try to circulate oil with it. It doesn't kill it, put it back in water and it comes back to life, but, yeah. Gotcha. Well, this is very helpful. certainly keep you updated. Yeah let us know how it works out. All right. Thanks, Dave. Very cool. Okay. So, uh, we got a 2nd question on starch. Secondly, I've read Harold McGee and Kenji's takes on how hot and how much water is sufficient to cook pasta. But is there a theoretical temperature and potentially time for fresh or dry pasta? If it exists? Couldn't we achieve that in a circulator? Many thanks. Brooke? Um, I don't uh, look. I don't think that there's like going to be an advantage to circulating pasta, right? Here's why. In order for the pasta to cook properly. The water's going to have to be fairly close. to boiling, right? In order to swell the starch and to get it to all work. So you're talking about a couple of degrees difference. So it's not like making Dashi with kombu or something like this where, you know, you're talking about, oh, I'm going to cook it at like 60, 70 degrees Celsius.
+
+[44:38] You're talking like, you're going to be above 80 and change anyway. So I don't think the difference between 80 and change and 100 is really going to be, um, like that much of a life changer in terms of the texture of the pasta. So I don't think you're going to really win. I think the only time that's really critical to get the water levels 100% right is if you're
+
+[44:58] going to can pasta and make soup. And we had a question on that someone asked, but I've never really, never really gotten to it. That said, you know, I would go back and read Harold's article from a 1000000 years ago in the New York Times on pasta and different water
+
+[45:13] levels. I just don't freaking worry about it. Do you worry about it much, does? I just don't worry about it. When you use larger quantities of water. I have, look, this is terrible, but like, remember, I use a lot of water. I have incredibly powerful gas burners and I don't pay for gas. My co-op pays for gas. And so this is a terrible statement to make, but I use excess gas. I'm not, I don't conserve probably as much as I should the natural gas that I have. Um, I tend to use a lot of water, and the reason I tend to use a lot of water is I don't measure the salt levels that go into the water, and larger amount of water in the pot is much more stable with a finished salt level in the given amount of pasta
+
+[46:01] than, um, than a smaller amount of water because it's, it just is. you know because you have more water to work with. It's not for any temperature reasons and it's not for rolling boil, it's not for, uh, it's not for the pasta sticking together. It's because I want the salt levels to come out relatively similar. Um, I know plenty of people like uh, um, Alex Nakke had ideas in food. They did the thing where they cold soaked pasta for a long time before they cooked it,
+
+[46:29] right? Their theory being it takes less time to cook, takes less energy to cook if you soak it beforehand. I don't know if that's true or not, but they say that, and they say that it comes out more even because it takes less time because water has intruded into the
+
+[46:43] pasta. It takes less time for the pasta to cook through, and hence, it less degradation to the outside of the pasta before the inside is done. Is it true? Is it not? Don't know. I have other, I had an Italian guy tell me that I should throw it in at the boil, bring it up to the boil, close it after you stir it to have it not
+
+[47:02] stick and turn the water off. Why? He didn't want the pasta to roll around and get beaten up on certain
+
+[47:07] pastas because he's saying that that's what causes a starch on the outside to get beaten up in the outside of the pasta to get mangled. Is it true? I don't know. What I'm saying is, is that I think there are about 8000 different ways to get pasta cooked nicely. And I think it's more about pulling it at the right time than anything else. What do you think, Stas? Yeah. That's about it here, Dave. Oh, man, all right. We have some more questions. We'll get to him next time on the cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Cooking issues listeners, if you love Dave, Nastasia, Peter, Kim,
+
+[0:05] may the whole team, please consider donating to Heritage Radio Network today.
+
+[0:09] We need all the help we can get. heritageradionetwork.org. Click on the beating heart. Make sure you say cooking issues in the donation so we can shout you out. And any and all help is very, very greatly appreciated. Enjoy the show. Today's program is brought to you by the dairy farm families of Wisconsin. The Wisconsin milk marketing board. Did you know that today Wisconsin produces more than 600 varieties,
+
+[0:32] types, and styles of American international style and original cheese that win more awards than any other state or country? To learn more, visit
+
+[0:42] eatwisconsincheese.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more. Cooking
+
+[1:03] issues.
+
+[1:27] Calling your questions, too! Cooking issues. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday for roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia. And the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? I figured I could feel crazy today because on the way in, I like swallowed a bug and some concrete. That was coffee and hacking. So you got to go full. Like, when you're not feeling 100%, you got to do like 120 and then you come out at like 105 or
+
+[2:05] 110. you know what I'm saying? Join in the booth with Jack, the Jackie molecules. How you doing? I'm good. Yeah, calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And if that was too fast for you. The number is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Joined also in the studio with our favorite subject of abuse other than ourselves. Peter Kim. The, I don't know, director, president, you know, like head
+
+[2:36] cheese. Like, he's, he's number, he's the 601st Wisconsin cheese that's produced. If you listen to the introductory print. 600 kinds of cheese in Wisconsin. Leave it to Dave the Dis's sponsors. Oh, are you saying that you wouldn't make a delicious Wisconsin cheese? Do you know that there are several Peter Kims that are not our Peter Kim? There is a... There's being Peter Kim, a blog. Yeah, there's Peter Kim, Peter Kim, who is an actor, right? An actor, yeah. Then there's all kinds of Dr. Peter Kim. Lots of doctors. Yeah, that's right. Are your parents now okay with you not being one of those doctors? Boom! Boom. Ouch. For those of you that don't know, Peter Kim. Not a doctor. Lawyer, actually, quit his lawyering job to start the museum of food and
+
+[3:25] drink, much to his family's chagrin. But now they're on now they're on the side. You've proven that it's good viable concept. Yeah, I think they're taking pity on me. Wow. What a feel good story. Yeah, a feel good story of the week. Follow your dreams. Get your parents pity. Okay. Stas, Nastasia, Lopez, was in Mexico for about 5 hours last weekend. Revisiting her roots. Nastasia, yeah. It's the fatherland, right? Because it's on her father's side. back to Mexico. and, uh, stars. Let me see if I get this straight. You flew out Friday morning at like 5
+
+[4:06] AM. Six. Right. But how many times did you're playing ping-pong around like Raiders have lost our style before you made it to Mexico? When do you? Okay. Now, uh, then you left Sunday morning at also like, so you were there for exactly one full day. 36 hours. Some of my friends thought I was getting abortion. Whoa. Wow. Whoa. Did you remind them you live in New York and you don't have to go to Mexico for that? They know my salary. Oh, wow. So not. We should talk stuff. So inappropriate on so many levels. Speaking of bad salary and people who happen to women, Dax has now watched 9 to 5 twice in one week. Wow. The classic movie 9 to 5. Lily Tomlin, by the way, freaking amazing. You know, I wish that she was involved in food somehow, Peter, so that we could twist her arm to be involved in
+
+[5:02] a museum somehow. Really Tomlin is so freaking awesome. I mean, Dolly Parton also freaking awesome. Jane Fonda, you know, you know, fine. Good. Anyway, literally tell me. Okay. So why don't you talk to us about the food you had there? It was okay. There was a lot of like sushi, hamburgers. Like regular, like, American interpretations of Japanese sushi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it's like 3 times culturally removed. Yeah, but I found a good carnitas place and some other place. And then I saw a tortoise stand that said with pumpkin flowers. Yeah, the sweet, sweet. So you could do it with quesadillas. And they said, no. Did you have one of the sandwiches with Florida Calabaza? No, that was not an option either. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So what they have? Tortas. That's a sandwich. Oh, well, it was not... they weren't... Like, you saw the flowers already, like, done. when they sauteed and they threw them in the sandwiches? Yeah. And then they threw, why didn't you have the sandwich? I didn't want that. Did you think that they said tostada instead of torto? No, no, no. So why did why when I said, by the way, people... is like the little folded up fried thing. No, Torta is a freaking sandwich. sandwich. It's a freaking sandwich By the way, Nastasia Lopez, half Mexican chick that grew up in LA, doesn't know a torta. It's also really one of the finest sandwiches out there. Are we going to go back into sandwiches? Every time Peter comes on, people go into sandwiches. Yes, the tops of the list, to me, are Cuban. Oh, me too. Yeah, Cuban. This is not in order. Patty melt. If it's not considered a burger, it's a sandwich, and it's one of the finest. It's one of the finest burgaloids, whatever you want to call the burger genre. Torta. Torta. Pardon me? Yes, although it's not a single sandwich because you can have a variety of different banh mis, but yes. There's a format. Yeah, yeah, it's a good format. What else? Turkey club? Turkey club. BLT. If done right. BLT. Like, BLT to me, superior to a turkey club. Yeah, well, and then for me, the egg and cheese sandwich is a
+
+[7:13] classic too. Yeah. Yeah. The day after Thanksgiving cold turkey sandwich. That's also good one. And then Italian cold cut sandwich is also... Also, not a specific thing. You're talking about like Philadelphia style. I'm talking about like the kind you get around where MoFat is. Like you get, you know, there's like 3 or 4 different kinds of... To me, this is
+
+[7:34] classic, just liking what you're, love the one you're with. Wait, did you say Ruben? Ruben's a good sandwich. I don't know that it makes a top, though. It's good In other words, like, I don't know. There's so many. If we're starting listening sandwiches, pastrami with mustard on rye. I mean, please. Please. Yeah, exactly. Standard crappy grilled cheese. Where's PB&J? Turkey wrap with alfalfa sprouts. kill you if you ever mention that again. What are you trying to mention all the poisonous things in one thing? Is there a way to make a flour tortilla without cooking it at all? Because that would be even worse. Well, I think there are raw tortillas, yeah. They do it making, don't they do it like... Anyone that would make a raw tortilla wouldn't put turkey in. But they would have some sort of sprout abomination, some sort of hideous sprout. Italian beef. The chat room says Italian beef. They want that to just, they want to mention. Well, if we're going to go if we're going to go hot. which I guess we did. We've gone hot several times. Beef on whack, baby. any any buffalo people here? Beef on whack. Do you know why? They have the kumo buns, the the salt and caraway buns, and then the thin sliced beef with the juice with the juice.
+
+[8:48] Yeah. I think what we're coming to realize is sandwiches are delicious. Yeah they are. I've been saying this for years man. What do you eat? Peter, like, you know, people are like, uh, if the bomb was going to drop. And you only had 15 minutes, which is like, I can I can make a sandwich in 15 minutes. He'll be eating a sandwich. I kiss my wife, make a sandwich. Yeah, well, in that order? Yeah, simultaneously. Honey, honey, yeah, okay. Enough with the smooching. I sandwiches. sandwiches, sandwiches. What are your thoughts on the muffaletta? Do you appreciate the muffler, or do you not appreciate the muffler? I like the muffaletta, yeah. It's very hard to get the bread to meets ratio, correct, and a muffle it, I think. Here's a question. Do you like your muffoletta hot or cold? That's an excellent question. For those who don't know, it's the New Orleans sandwich. I like them both, actually. I've had both styles be good. When I was a kid, I didn't used to, so for tourists, right? If central grocery is like the classic tourist one. I like that now playing when I was a kid, I thought it was too much bread, but I'm good with it now.
+
+[9:55] I like them hot. I think whatever it is, Napoleon House, I think serves them hot. How do you like them, Jack? Yeah, I go hot usually with that. Really? I don't love a muffleta. I not like. Oh, why? You don't like the chopped up... Jardinier salad stuff. Yeah. That stuff good. Yeah, I like it. You don't like New Orleans. I like it. I like having a sour element in shrimp and oyster po boys all day in New Orleans. Really? Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. I don't really like the po boy bread. go on record. Wow. Kind of gummy. Boy's not really a specific sandwich. It's a whole class of sandwiches. Yeah, but if you're in New Orleans and you ask for that particular sandwich. Then you're getting that. I mean, then it's like that sandwich is what you like, for that matter, what are your thoughts on the, all the various Philadelphia cheesesteaky things? Oh, I mean, I love cheesesteaks. Why wouldn't you love cheesesteaks? Why wouldn't you? wrong with loving a cheesesteak? You giving me like it's a guilty pleasure? What's wrong with liking a cheesesteak? No, I mean, the only reason I said it with a size because I feel like now the list is growing and growing where we were trying to come up with a tight list of like top sandwiches. Now we're just saying sandwiches. I think from a strictly sense of pure, pure, right? So let's let's take anything out that served on a, on a whatever you want to call it, a hoagie roll, a, you know, a subroll, whatever. Let's take all those things out for a second. Let's remove that crap. That gets rid of your eggplant parms. It gets rid of your meatball subs. Which, by the way, are 2 things we didn't mention. Spice spreads. Let's go on sliced bread. That also takes out tortoises. Yeah, yeah. And takes out, no, burglaids. Patty melts are served on freaking... I know, but like... So not grilled. You're saying not like no grilled cheese is that doesn't count anymore. You're saying, like, something served on regular or toasted sliced bread. Yeah, yeah. BLT scrape. Yeah, I would go. That's God sandwich. got to be the one. God came down and said, oh, by the way, check this out, BLT. Yeah. In season. Tomatoes in season. Yeah, yeah. Either that or the turkey club, I'd say. No, turkey club. The best turkey club. I'm sure throw this one out there because this is what I have most often at the deli around the corner.
+
+[11:57] I do a grilled cheese with bacon and tomato. Yeah, good, but you've just grilled the cheese, dude. You just cheated. Nastasia doesn't like sandwiches because Peter Kim likes them. We ate sandwiches yesterday. They were good. What's your worst nightmare of a sandwich does? I don't know. Biscuit with what? What do you hate more? Biscuit-based sandwich. We all know you hate biscuits or a croissant-based sandwich. Not everyone knows Nastasi also hates croissant. Really? You know what I hate? Our catering platter sandwiches. Oh, yeah. You just see that platter. Okay, listen, that's the worst. Under... hold on. Yes, under lubrication. Like, like, there's a rainstorm every time there's a dry sandwich out there and it's God crying. I know. That's why I always go for the chicken salad of the tuna salad when I hit the catering sound. Except for what's the problem with all the tuna salad out there. undersalted Salt, your freaking tuna salad. Salt it. Okay. Also, like, I like it when there's some texture in my in my tuna salad. Like I like a little celery in mine. Me too, man, yeah. like pickles in mine. Chicken salad. Oh my god, good. Here's the thing. So for catering, 1st of all, if you're catering, there are always some D-bags out there who don't want salt on there. So you should just put the salt out. Who is that person? They're the people who are in cater sandwiches. So what you got to do is you got to like put salt out there so that humans consult it. Yeah, yeah. And like catered sandwiches also do a really poor job of getting like filling coverage. So you always get like the 13rd of the edge of the sandwich is just bread. You know why? like empty space in between. It's some it's some jerk. It's some jerk filling the sandwiches with an ice cream scoop with a doser. in the middle. And the person's like everyone gets the exact same amount of tuna salad. So like you scoop out like that amount of tuna salad because this person doesn't care. It's like they've never eaten a sandwich. It's either they don't care about you as a human being or they've never eaten a sandwich before in their life or some combination of those two. And they just go, they put that tuna salad scoop right in the middle of that bread, smack the next piece of
+
+[13:56] bread, do the diagonal cut next. It's really horror show. It really is a freaking horror show. Well, and also those things aren't designed to sit around for a long time. So then the moisture migrates into the bread and it turns to a gum, gum, it's
+
+[14:11] either... Let's do the right architecture. Well, this is why you need to listen to the British. This is one of the times I'm going to tell you. need to listen to the British tea sandwiches. Tea sandwiches. Those are the best catered sandwiches, man. When I need to do a picnic, I do tea sandwiches. Oh yeah. I love tea sandwiches. Of course. This is the classic thing that people do. Even professionals, when they move into catering or people when they order catering. Here's classic mistake people make. What they do is they say, what sandwich would I like to eat if I made it fresh right now? Right. And then they make that. That's why you get all those rancid buffalo, fake buffalo milk and tomato sandwiches at airports on that bread that has that wavy line of like water migration and the top's too dry and it's undersalted and you want to die and you're gumming that thing down and you're waiting for
+
+[14:52] it to get on an airplane. You know what I'm talking about? So rather than that, any like person should think, okay, here's the problem. I'm going to make a sandwich that's going to either sit on a platter for like hours or I'm going to wrap it and it's going to sit for hours. So what do you do? The Brits, the Brits have that nailed. Just make the British and then like, so what? If an American's like, man, Atlantic, you come with ham. Don't eat. Jerks. Right? Yeah, yeah, I'm right there with you, man. How the hell do we get on this? By the way, next week we have on the program. Super exciting. So I want you guys to think about questions for the guest we have on next week.
+
+[15:30] We're having on, right? This is confirmed us. So far. Yeah. We have Richard Rangam coming on. Esteemed professor at Harvard University, who wrote the book Catching Fire, How Cooking Made Us Human. And it's very topical that he's on next week because very recently a letter was published in Nature by 2 other people at Harvard, Catherine
+
+[15:56] Zinc, with a K, not like the metal, Zinc, and Daniel Lieberman. Daniel Lieberman, well known for writing books about the head, the human head, including his theory that humans have much more wide variety of taste sensations because we're one of the few animals that
+
+[16:15] have retronasal old faction. one of his shticks. Anyway, they came out with an article in nature saying that Rangum's hypothesis might not hold water. So briefly put, so that you don't, you should go out and buy his book. Anyway, it's a very interesting read. You can buy it on audible.com and listen to it on the way to the to the work. But, um, which is actually what I did. But his basic theory is this, that the human brain takes up a very large amount of energy,
+
+[16:42] right, relative to other primates. How can we afford to have such a kind of a large and sophisticated brain? How can we afford to be the way we are? And he says that if cooking came very early in our split off from being
+
+[16:58] regular primate to being a human, then the availability of a denser, easier to digest and more efficient caloric intake, right, actually allowed for all of the other, all of the other
+
+[17:15] developments, evolutionary developments to take place. So that actually cooking is intertwined with human evolution, and what makes us human, what allowed us to evolve into humans, is our ability to cook
+
+[17:26] foods. That's the, in a nutshell, and it's been months since I've read it slash, listen to it, but that's his theory in a nutshell. And I think it's super interesting. And I want to have him on and also to address this new article by Zinc and Lieberman basically saying, look
+
+[17:41] at, you don't need to cook to actually, I happen to think that their letter is not accurate. We'll get into it, but you don't necessarily need to cook things in order to get those benefits that just pounding the
+
+[17:52] ever-loving crap out of them can do that as well. So, Rangum's, his actual thesis is super interesting and he's done such things as hang out with chimps for months on end, trying to chew chimp food,
+
+[18:05] uh, et cetera, et cetera. Done a lot of interesting stuff, super interesting character, other things in it. you know, in his, one of his prior books is about kind of male, male,
+
+[18:16] female, relations. I haven't read that one yet. Hopefully I'll get to it by next week. So there's lots of interesting sociological things about, like, who did the cooking, how early that split off happened between, like, gender relations as it relates to food, super interesting. Also, he has some choice words about raw food diet. So I'm sure we'll get into that as well. So please save up some awesome questions for Richard Rangam on next week's show. make a good exhibit, the museum too. Interesting topic to explore. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And so the real question for a museum exhibit based on this
+
+[18:48] is, I mean, as it's a relatively new theory, you have to present it, I don't know, I don't know how
+
+[18:55] we do it, but it is super interesting. You know, everyone's like, what is it that makes us human? It our language. It's our this, it's our that. He's like, it's our cooking. But what I like about his argument, uh, is the style of presentation is, look it, uh,
+
+[19:10] if you just use Occam's razor, like, what's the simplest way to figure out, like, we all know we have cooking now, right? He's very difficult to figure out exactly when cooking happened from the from the record, from the archaeological record. Um, But he said, Occam's razor shows that the simplest explanation for how
+
+[19:30] he got to where we are is cooking. And so like any other explanation is actually more convoluted. And so until someone comes out with a simpler explanation that fits the
+
+[19:39] data or finds data that contravenes this theory. This is the theory you should work with. And I like that kind of, that's my mode of, my mode of thinking. Before Peter has to leave, Let's talk to him about his stuff. Oh, no. There's a call. You want to speak that in first? Let's do the call. Call her on the air. Dave, this is Jeffrey and Costa Mensa. How it going? All right. How you doing? Doing well. I recently mentioned your book, Liquid Intelligence, too, an associate, not a friend. Uh, not a friend, person's a bartender, and uh, his his response was, oh, it's a new science fee for me. What? And it reminded me of the reviews that you read on Amazon, uh, years ago, just
+
+[20:28] muddle headed pools. Uh, and here's, so here's the thing, even if I, God forbid, never have access to a rotary
+
+[20:36] evaporator. I still benefit from understanding what vacuuming the solution can achieve, what kind of flavor attention you can get. Uh, if I never have access to, or if I don't have access to a
+
+[20:49] centrifuge, yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know, I get your point. We're coming as soon as we can. I can't get I can't get the centrifuge. I have to make it good enough for for release. That's the thing. The Stasia vouch for the fact that we're working hard on it. working hard. working hard. All right, go ahead. That's bad. We can wait. But yeah, so even though I don't have a centrifuge, I still benefit from understanding various clarification techniques and what you can do on different products. So the book is useful, no matter whether you have access to all of the equipment or not, because it makes you a
+
+[21:22] better, a better cook. I hope so. This bartender probably still can't even make a proper, uh, exist in Manhattan, because they
+
+[21:30] think that you can chill, like, drink harder with large ice cubes without them, basically, uh, diluting, because they don't know the fundamental law of
+
+[21:39] cocktail dirt. Well, okay, let me ask you this. Your associate, here's the thing, you can be wrong. You can be very, very wrong and still make good drinks as long as your actual, a lot of times people's practice doesn't jibe with
+
+[21:55] their, with their mental representation of what they're doing. Is this person's drinks? Are they good? They're okay, but they're not consistent. Yeah, of course. Okay. Yeah, I mean, like, interesting, but it's more whether they can make a good drink or not. It's more just sort of like gimming the book and then deciding whatever those reviews were, like too much information, that just doesn't even make sense. I know, but look, look, I have a very particular attitude and sounds like you also have a very particular attitude. Some people just don't respond well to like analytical thinking. You know what I mean? They just don't respond, they just don't respond. So it's not for... just the section on apples is worth the worth the sticker price and that's not as analytical, you know,
+
+[22:44] it's just a more interesting read. Anyway, people should buy the book. Well, thank you, thank you so much. And tell your friend, very gently, just be like, your drinks are good. I'm not saying that you have to do all science-y stuff, but maybe you can work on the consistency. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. Gentleness is key when interacting. Yeah, unless unless he's going to go full Japanese, in which case it's like you don't want it consistent. Every drink should be like a journey from beginning to end. A drink should take 10 to 15 minutes to complete. Um, you know, it should cost $30. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, there's that whole there's that whole genre as well. Yeah. Okay. Well, my question is about cocktails. I plan to, for my future sister-in-law's bridal shower. I plan to force carbonate, French 75 and bottle it. So I've done this in the past just by, by, uh, clarifying lemon, chilling down gin and water, uh, sort of carbonating
+
+[23:41] that, and then just pop the bottle. Right. Does Nastasia like a French 75, or is that just ruining champagne with gin? She's not a huge gin fan. Yeah, don't like it. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. So my question is, pouring twice into those little 187 mil bottles is kind of a
+
+[24:04] pain. And I'm wondering if there's a wine that could reasonably, reasonably
+
+[24:09] approach a champagne type note if it's carbonated a lower PSI. Hmm. You know, I could just do the whole thing, dilute it, chill it down, and carbonate. I don't even know what pressure champagne usually likes to sit at. Hi, but remember, once you turn it into a French 75. It's got so the classic French 75 is not very carbonated at all because it's just champagne added to
+
+[24:33] the to the drink. Um, Yeah, so I did I diluted it further than I normally would if I was just
+
+[24:40] shaking and I went up to like 60% water for that original base. Yeah, I have to do some... I mean, I don't have my numbers. I'd have to do some calculation. I once did some work. In fact, I was gonna have a sidebar in the book on French 75s, but I never did
+
+[24:55] it, and I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head. I mean, champagne is obviously a very good carbonated
+
+[25:05] wine, and it's going to add its own kind of yeasty
+
+[25:09] notes to it, but you could use it. I mean yeah, you could use anything. I mean, I would use something that doesn't, that, you just have to test it. You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't use anything that didn't that tasted, you know, wildly different. You want to do it for, you don't want to do, you don't want to use champagne because of the, of the price? No, no, no. I was just wondering if I just pouring into those little bottles because I'm going to make a bunch of these, uh, is just a pain and then I have to do it twice because I'm horse carbonating the gin
+
+[25:37] mixture, bring that. Yeah, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Just, like, dump the entire, whatever wine you use, just dump the entire mixture together, throw it in the
+
+[25:46] freezer. losing too much gas that way, though, just by pouring it all out. It all kind of foams, you know, you can't, all of the nucleation sites. But you're going to recarbonate it. recarbonate it, right? So the actual... Oh, so hit the whole thing, recarbonated then with the original champagne? Yeah, yeah. Whenever I do this stuff, I batch everything, including the stuff that's
+
+[26:07] like originally carbonated, that original carbonation, that foaming that happens actually helps to kind of get some of the other gases and crap out of your
+
+[26:16] mixture. Then you take that whole thing. Now you can taste it to make sure it's completely homogenous. Chill it down until it's almost frozen, and then just recarb the whole thing and pour it into
+
+[26:29] bottles much easier and much more consistent. But then when you did mention price when you're buying champagne, are you paying for the bubbles at all, is that gonna... Well, it's a different, you're paying, when you're buying for champagne, you're paying for, A, you're paying for the fact that it's champagne, you're paying for the amount of time it takes, the process it goes through, right?
+
+[26:52] So they're very, they're typically relatively, uh, uh, acidic, um, grapes, uh, they have to go through
+
+[27:00] like, uh, you know, the, you know, long process. They then they get they get disgorged and then, you know, dosage and all
+
+[27:08] this other stuff. So you're going through a big rigmarole to produce. But I'm sure you can make a delicious, uh, you know, you know, French, you know, 74 or 76, uh, with a with a different, um... Yeah. Prosecco and lower
+
+[27:22] the, lower the sugar or something, something that... Yeah, I mean, Prosecco Cava or even like a, maybe even a crement might be nice. I mean, like, I would just, I would just get like a bottle. Look, it's not a hard, as long as you're getting, you know, something that you like drinking, it's not a hardship to, you know, open a bottle, make 175 with it, feel how you feel about
+
+[27:42] it, and then drink the rest as bubbles, right? Especially if you're going to make a bunch. And then once you lock it down, then, um, once you lock it down, then now you have something in your pocket that you can do inexpensively.
+
+[27:54] Like I used, I don't use it anymore, but like when I got married, because it was 20, you know, 22 years ago, uh, you know,
+
+[28:00] I, I, we went on a side by, we tasted like a 1000000000 cavas side by side and I stuck with that cheap cava for like 15 years. Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's kind of gone downhill, so I'm not going to recommend it. But, you know what I'm saying? Like once you get a good thing in your pocket, then it's there for a long time. I happen to go. And what pressure range would you, would you try at least at first? 45. 45, 4, 4, 4, 45 at, yeah, 4, 5. last the last the fruit app? No. No, no. what typically, it depends on what your alcohol content is. If you're getting your alcohol content down to like between 13 and 15% on your final batch, then 45
+
+[28:40] PSI at cold temperature is going to be is going to be good. All right, I'll give it a try. All righty. Let us know how goes. All right, cool. All right. Here's some here's some stuff in. Wait, what were we going to talk about with Peter again? Yeah, Peter's back. Are you are you staying for the rest of the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let me, let me, let me get some stuff written there and then we'll talk about Peters. We'll talk about, uh, have you ever heard of the, um, the Houseguest Olympics? It's something that my wife and I, Jen, we used to do. It's called the House Guest Olympics. Nobody knew they were participating in the Houseguest Olympics, but we would rate people after they came based on
+
+[29:16] like how good of a houseguest or how bad of a houseguest. Well, this changes every time I come over to your place now. How bad was I? Houseguests have to sleep over, by the way. How bad am I? You're fine, Stas. You're fine. I can't rate you on a house guest. So you're basically like, you know, almost like a family member at this point, so it doesn't count. But, um, you know, we've known each other for how many, that's not true. I've rated people that I've known for like... It's a question of like how you... I love snacks. Snacks is good. No, but also it's like House gets Olympics is most normally when they're staying there when you're there. So it's how they interact with you. So if someone shows up at your house, right? And then is like, and I don't want to be a bother. I don't want to be a bother. So they bring like their own, like, milk and stuff. That's weird. Like, that, like, knocks you down and housekeep limits. When people like leave crap in your bathroom, house guest, house guest Olympics way down. Would someone like, like Nastasia like leaves wine and snacks in the thing, that's very good on the Housecats Olympics. When I thought that she blew up our fireworks, that knocked her down a couple of pegs, but, but,
+
+[30:21] but, fireworks, they were phoned. Yeah. So like, yeah, so the fireworks. So that knocks her back up on the house guest Olympics. And plus when you came with Mark, you guys brought tons of awesome Italian
+
+[30:32] products. So you're doing quite well in the House Guest Olympics. So but anyway, so Peter has some houseguest Olympic stuff going on that we'll talk about after we get some questions. She doesn't look like a cliffhanger. This is from, well, we assume not. This is from Mark Powie in the District of Columbia. Dave mentioned that he wanted to investigate the contents of cooked versus
+
+[30:54] rotovapt maple syrup. I did say that. Sap, actually, maple sap. So the theory being that if you're doing it at low temperature that you're not going to have the same flavor. There's already some work in this area, but with more of a focus on human health
+
+[31:09] and on deliciousness, of course, of course. See, uh, Navindra, uh, serums work at the University of Rhode Island. Cooking the sap does, in fact, result in new process derived molecules, like a polyphenol named
+
+[31:21] Quebecol, like Quebec. Why do they name it after? It has a weird voice. Hey, what's the... What's the...? What's his nationality? What did you want to make? Oh, uh... Tre Equois. Yeah, his own nationality. And if you're a Trebequois, you not only pronounce French in a weird way. No offense, Kevois, folks, but you also try to pronounce everyone else's language like Alex
+
+[31:49] Trebeca. That's what it takes. Do you like Alex Trubeck, Peter? What are your feelings, Jack, on Alex Trebeck? Neutral? I don't know. What's with the no? Why? Like, what's wrong with Alex Trebek? I don't know man. You know what it is? It's seeing him in taxis that pisses me off. It's like before I was like, oh, Alex Trebeck, he's an intellectual guy. He's entirely curious. You know, he seems to be a good arbiter of the truth. And then you see him in the tax and you realize he's just another, like, show. Well, he became really self-aware and got all kind of like a parody of himself. Yeah, exactly. When I was a kid, when I was with my grandma, We used to sit and we would watch Wheel of Fortune with Pat Sajak and
+
+[32:25] Vanna White and then Jeopardy with the Alex. Oh yeah, same. a huge fan. H huge fan. And then like, you know, just after a while, like him like pronouncing all the Spanish words with that freaking lisp, even if this person was freaking Mexican or from South
+
+[32:37] America. I'm like, you know what I mean? That's a big pet view of mine. Like, that's where he lives. Like, listen, like... What the hell? If it's a Spanish person, fine. If you're going to pronounce someone... But what if he learned his Spanish in Spain? From like Ecuador, from like Colombia, from Mexico, then you don't pronounce the
+
+[32:56] Spanish, that would just pronounce it like an American or a Canadian then. You know what I'm saying? If you're going to mutilate, if you're not going to do it like the person who would, if they were alive, right? But that's where he learned to speak Spanish with Spain. What? Yeah. Oh, really? I didn't realize he was a Spanish professor in Spain. I was wrong. Here's the other thing. Also, like, like how he like, he's like, oh, no, the answer was blah, like, or the question was blah. Of course he knows. He has the answer in front of him, on a card. I don't know, man. Trebek. Trebequa. Uh, anyway, uh, polyphenol named Kebicol. Given that there are amino acids and a lot of sugar in the sap, I expect some
+
+[33:39] Myard products as well. I wonder if any volatile components can be pulled off and collected from maple syrup. I think I've tried. It's hard. I mean, like there is a volatile note to it, obviously, but I can't, I think I've tried distilling syrup, but I don't,
+
+[33:54] um, I can't remember whether I got good results or not. I don't think I did. I don't remember. I also wonder about separating some of the flavorance from the sugars. I'm thinking of trying a recrystallization from ethanol,
+
+[34:06] Mark Pelli. Man. And then he links to some of the papers. I can't access the full articles, but, you know, it's on University of Rhode Island's website. That's super interesting. Thanks for writing that in and hopefully if you, you know, do anything interesting with it. write back and tell us more. I'm interested. Were we ever going to get some maple sap and do a demo at the museum, Peter? No, I don't remember. don't think so. Maybe we should. Maybe we should. A little late in the season. Do you know that the NPR did an April Fools joke a long time back saying that if you that trees were exploding because people weren't tapping them and if you don't tap the maple trees that they would explode, they did it and people actually believed it, which
+
+[34:49] is pretty hilarious. The best NPR April Fools joke was when they did the headline was studies show that nobody reads head, no, people only read headlines and not the actual article. And then there were like 1000s of comments
+
+[35:00] of people like, you jerks. I read the article. I read the article. Of course I do. And then the body of the article is... That's pretty... that's awesome. I have a good April foolish joke, the best one I ever did. If we have time at the end of the show, You can have me tell it because it is our April. not food. is Dave's birthday. is my birthday. How old are you gonna be? 45. Hey, it's Jeremy from Seattle. Hope all is well on your what? What? What? Hope all is well on your side of the world. I have a quick question for the show finally. I brined in water bath, a 3 pound. This is late, by the way, because obviously this is no longer relevant to Jeremy, but I brined
+
+[35:38] and water bath. a £3 pork loin at 145 Fahrenheit for 3.5 hours last
+
+[35:42] night. So we'll get me that number in Celsius, please. I pulled it out, dried it, and seared it. After ate a few slices at about 9.30 p.m. All right? Popped it back in the bag, displacement sealed it, and tossed it into an ice bath. He didn't really do a vacuum on it. So it's probably, you know, not 100% oxygen free. Then I promptly passed out on the couch. I am familiar with this problem. I woke up about 1230 AM and having completely forgotten about the pork, crawled upstairs and got ready for bed.
+
+[36:09] Got up around 5.30 and remembered. and ran down and checked the water temp. It was 61 degrees Fahrenheit. So I threw it in the fridge to chill, hoping it's okay to eat tonight or tomorrow. Any suggestions or warnings? How old is this question? That's from last week. So if you're alive, Jeremy, I would eat it. Like, I would just reheat it. You're probably, look, you killed all of the aerobic stuff. I don't think, you know, I'm not an expert in this. I didn't have time to look it up too much. I don't think there's a lot of spore forming aerobic bacteria. I don't think you made an anaerobic enough environment to cause the spores to germinate during that period of time.
+
+[36:47] And anything you did, you could just do a quick kill on the outside. Remember, you cooked it and totally killed everything, then you seared it, then you put it back in a bag. So to me, it's like similar to like a deli meat that's been sitting out, even though it
+
+[36:57] wasn't it was brine too. So it was salted on the outside. So my feeling is, is that if, you know, if you ate it, you're probably safe and if you didn't eat it, you probably would have been safe, especially with a light seer to make the family less queasy and nervous about it. A slight chance that you're wrong, you'll just die. He could be dead. No, the thing is, like, I always use the same thing. Would I feed it to my family or not? Yes. Bang. You know what I mean? That way you can't say, Dave says it's safe. I'm just saying, what would I do? Just in a similar way to what would Brian Boytano do? Ben wrote in about salmon. I have a question about locks slash smoked salmon. I love this stuff, and I'm happy to patronize its local purveyors. Patronize is a weird term because it's either very good or very bad. How did that happen? I don't know. Yeah. Local purveyors. patronizing. Oh, look into little Lux. Anyway, no, patronize. Give them money. Very good. See what I mean? Could go either way. Shout out to Shelsky's and Russian Daughters. You been to Shelski's yet? Nope. I haven't either. I mean, Russ and Daughters. I have to go like, I hear it's good. I have to go like, I go to Wrestling Daughters probably once a week because Booker and Dax forced me to go. I mean, I would go anyway, but they force me to go. Anyway. Trout caviar is on the Dave Bingo game. that Nastasi and I play. What's that? What's that? Well, there's like stories that you bring up here and there. So if we... I didn't even mention it. You mentioned it. I know. So you see how you self-perpetuate things. I know, but I'm just saying, you were about to go there. I wasn't. very much like to see the bingo board. It's a bingo board. It's our heads. Yeah, okay. And they add to it whenever. Nastasi is the queen of this. I knew you were going to say that. Well, then why didn't you say it beforehand, so you could prove it. Why didn't you write it on a piece of paper, fold it in half and hand it to me after I said it? See, that would be that would be like the amazing Randy movie. Let's build an actual board. No, it's because they can't put their freaking money where their mouth is because they're jokers. We can't. Jokers. That, by the way, is also a bingo item. Jokers, Jokers? Jack, when was the last time you heard me call somebody? I've never heard you say the word joker. Boom. Putting us down is definitely on the bingo. No, that's just because it needs to happen. That's not a bingo. That's like saying, oh, Dave, do you need to breathe? Yeah, or you die. You know what I mean? Okay. Call her on the line. Also on the bingo board. All right, call her. We'll get back to your salmon question. Call her, you're on the air. Okay, yeah, I hope your retina has not attached, but I'll quickly get to my question. I had a curious idea. You know, they have like that debate in barbecue where some people cook things hot and fast and some people cook things low and slow. What do you think of that, number one? And the other question is, how does that relate to regular braising? Like, some people like to braid stuff at, like, a 350 degree temperature, and some people like to bring stuff at, like, a, you know,
+
+[39:47] a 280 degree temperature. Is there really that big of a difference? and what do you think? Here's here's the thing. To me, when it comes to barbecuing. Hot and fast is really just like some variant of grilling. You know what I mean? So it's just going to be it's going to be different. You're not going to get like what you consider barbecue from a pit standpoint is like you have to do a lot of tissue
+
+[40:11] breakdown and that just doesn't happen quickly. You know what I mean? That happens. Yeah. There's just so many people that do that. Like, not, you know, garbage web blogger people, like major people that do
+
+[40:22] that, and they don't think it matters. Like how fast? Yeah, like, I mean, like Ed Mitchell cooks at, like, 350 degree. But, like, open or, like, wrapped and closed? Yeah, no, I mean, like, for a temperature for a time of, you know, 4 hours order, but it's a locked and closed, and then several other big barbecue guys, they cook stuff at like +300 degrees. They're also doing... He's doing whole hog, right? Ed Mitchell's doing whole. Yeah, whole Hog, but I've seen him do other things like the same exact way. Smaller stuff? Yeah, like ribs or setting like that. I mean, the bigger, the bigger something, I think it was like a, if we were going to braise something in a liquid, you could get the 350 degrees, you know, for that amount of time,
+
+[41:10] then they seem to be kind of doing that same temperature on a, on a smoker.
+
+[41:16] Right. Look, look. So, Let's look at it this way. When you're, let's go to braising first. If you're braising, and remember, like, you know, if you like Ed Mitchell's product, then obviously they're doing something right, whether or not it, whether or not it fits with kind of what we theoretically think, right, if you like their product, then they make a good
+
+[41:37] product, and so you have to investigate what they do to figure out, like, why it works the way it does. I was going to say that off the top. Now, when you go to braising, and you're looking at a braising phenomenon, the biggest difference in a
+
+[41:52] braise is whether or not the lids offer lids on, right? So if your lid is on, then the braves is getting up to 212, right?
+
+[42:02] You're not really building any pressure. Anyone who says that you're building pressure, it's nonsense. It's horse crap. You know what I mean? Unless it's in a pressure cooker. Because even a very slight overpressure on the order of, you know, decimal PSI would be is enough physical force to make the lid fly off of anything that you would have on there, right?
+
+[42:20] Uh, so that whole thing about, like, pressurizing it, that people used to say, like,
+
+[42:25] pit aluminum foil and then push it down and you form a pressure. No, crap, you know what I mean? But you are getting it up to 212 or higher, actually, depending on how not much higher, but higher, depending on how thick the goop is that you have the thing braising in. With the lid off, you're getting evaporative cooling. And so the temperature is significantly lower. Like, you know, somewhere probably in the, you know, high 80s or 90s, right? Celsius. Um, McGee knows the exact answer because you've done these things,
+
+[42:56] but, um, so with the lid off, as long as you keep the liquid level right, I don't know that you're going to have that much of a difference, um, whether your oven is above 212 or not, it's just
+
+[43:07] going to, you'll probably increase the evaporation rate if you have a higher oven, but you're not probably going to materially
+
+[43:14] affect uh, uh, what you're doing. Now, when it comes now, let's transfer this over to barbecue land now. So let's say you're doing, let's say you're doing something at like 350, right? So what's the difference to the meat at the very inside of
+
+[43:32] a whole hog when you're doing 350? Answer, not a whole hell of a lot, right? Because still locally where you are in the meat, assuming that you're a tiny trichinosis worm on the inside of a piece of pork, right? Assuming, right. If you're in there, you are never going to get above 212 ever. You know what I'm saying? Until all of your moisture is out, and the temperature then can rise above the boiling point of water. So a high temperature on what would typically be a braising cut or something
+
+[44:06] that's going to cook for a long period of time is just going to affect the amount of meat that can be desiccated on the outside,
+
+[44:15] right? And so what I assume that he would get would be a much higher portion of desiccated, dried out,
+
+[44:25] overcooked crunchy bits. And maybe he likes them. You know what I'm saying? That's why I ask, on smaller cuts of meat, it would seem to be a lot more detrimental because you could dry out a significant portion of it before the inside is tender enough for your for your, you know, hopes and desires.
+
+[44:39] Does that make sense? I would think so. Yeah, I just remember, you know, on the breathing side, I remember reading, you know, like in the French laundry
+
+[44:47] cookbook where they, they talked about raising everything under 300 degrees because they thought it was more gentler, but if your, if your water temperature is never getting over a significant
+
+[44:56] thing, It doesn't seem to matter. I don't think, yeah. I don't think it matters much. You know, next time we get McGee on, see if you can, like, like, we, like, he loves to talk about this stuff, so we can, uh, we'll, we'll have that debate. I'm sure he, you know, he'll, he'll go on a tear as much as McGee goes on a tear, which is not, you know, he's not like a, he's not like a
+
+[45:14] rant. Well, he doesn't rant in public much. It does seem it does seem to it does seem to take longer when you brace things in liquid at a lower temperature
+
+[45:22] than versus at a 350 Even smaller, even small changes in temperature effect
+
+[45:31] by a bit, how long it takes collagen to break down? And that's what I'm really wondering about. is it more of a collagen thing or a, you know. Yeah, collagen breakdown, but the difference in the in the texture of a protein at, uh, you know, 85 Celsius and at
+
+[45:49] 100 is like, you know, it's just freaking same. You know what I mean? It's like, it's overcooked. You know what I mean? That's why I have to have other flavors or things or a lot of collagen to breakdown. And one of the reasons why I am not the biggest fan of whole
+
+[46:01] hog because then stuff, you're doing that rancid overcooking to stuff like the loin.
+
+[46:06] Now what? You know what I mean? It's like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I don't know why people like it. Because they hack the whole freaking thing up and you have some stuff that tastes really good and some stuff that's overcooked. And so you average it out to being something that's good. But I, you know, I, in my book, why not like cook the loin exactly the way you want it, then cook all the,
+
+[46:28] like the low and slow stuff the way you want it, hack it up and have it all be better, right, Peter? Well there's the ceremony to it, right? I mean, it's the reason why we do whole turkeys. Well, that's why you want to do... You're right, you're right. Okay. Okay. Okay. The high pitched was bingo. Wow. Yeah. Can we get to Peter's story? Yeah, we have to, because we're wrapping up here. Well, hold on a second. I gotta finish the salmon question. Justino. hold on a second. All right. So, um, I'm happy to patronize local purveyors. Shout out to Shelskis and Russ and Daughters, but I was wondering if it was worth making this stuff at home. I would also be curious to hear the cooking issues team thoughts on the product. We all like smoked salmon, right? Locks. By the way, in my world, locks is locks, i.e. not smoked. Salt, salt, and sugar cure, either wet or dry, and then, you know, allowed to dry off a little bit and sliced.
+
+[47:19] To me, that's locks, right? And the smoked salmon, like nova style, gas belt, that stuff. Smoked salmon. Okay? Bump, bump. And we're talking cold smoked salmon here, not hot smoked, all right? We're all on the same page. Okay. Uh, I think basically I need a primer, but here are my questions. Any thoughts on reliable books slash recipes, especially for traditional Jewish appetizing styles, i.e.
+
+[47:42] Nova locks, belly locks, et cetera. Thoughts on the curing step, drive versus wet, and equipment. I have a backyard and a Weber charcoal grill, but I assume I'll need to invest some sort of cold smoking rig, yes. Do you have any recommendations on make styles, et cetera? Are there any that do double duty as a hot smoker that are worthwhile? How about wood? Thoughts on the species, pellets versus chips, others, et cetera. And fish, how high a grade do I need to go? Should I be looking for this stuff I'd make sashimi with or is my usual pricey NYC supermarket salmon? Okay. Thanks in advance. Been a listener since day one, and the show has seriously helped me up my cooking, eating, mixing, and drinking game. Ben. Okay, 1st of all, let's start on salmon because we're going to run out of time here. And we got to get a Peters thing. So we start on salmon. Definitely, salmon's going to make a huge freaking difference in this. And you're gonna want to choose what you want based on the fat variety.
+
+[48:29] So I would go to Russian Daughters, and I would ask them what kind of salmon things are made out of. So for your 1st choices, Atlantic salmon versus Pacific salmon, and then if you're going to go, um, either of those, uh, you really should either buy stuff that's sushi grade, uh, which has been frozen or you should freeze it hard in your in your freezer
+
+[48:48] for uh, over for over a week to uh, kill any uh, worms and a sack of worms or tapeworms that are in it because the curing step may not kill it, especially
+
+[48:57] uh, cold smoke step. But investigate this. So Chinook obviously has the highest fat content, king salmon. So if you want a very high fat content, this is like the salmon that you
+
+[49:06] would get from New Zealand, New Zealand King salmon or a gold. Like that's the stuff that they make the New Zealand King salmon that you get at Russen Daughters. I think that stuff's fantastic. It's super high in fat. It's got a very nice texture because it's been anesthetized before they kill
+
+[49:19] it, so it stays very firm. So over, you know, you know, that stuff is good. I think the salmon is going to make a huge difference. I also called up Nils Norin to get his regular gravadlocks recipe
+
+[49:32] and 0 my god, I can't, oh, here it is. I'm trying to find it. I wrote it down, but I guess it didn't get pasted in. Should I do that next week? Should I talk about it? I talk about the salmon recipe next week. And versus cold smoking, like I'm sure other people have a lot more experience with different cold smokers. Typically it's done with like pipes and ice over the things to make it done, but the people on the
+
+[49:55] internets will help us out and we'll talk about it more next week. So Ben, we're going to get back to your question more next week. Peter, Nastasi, why don't you go? Why don't you say what the story is? Peter had a terrible houseguest. All right, it's that terrible houseguest. What did they do, Peter? First of all, there was an Airbnb person. Peter had an Airbnb person come over. So, and they stayed there. They are a med school student and they drank all of his liquor. without saying anything. They drank all of his freaking liquor. Including, and I don't know why you had a bottle of this, a whole bottle of Malibu. Look, there are things that people bring over who are low on the
+
+[50:33] Houseguest Olympics. So this lady was doing you a favor. Those things sit in the bar. So this lady, that's a favor, that particular case. And she had bottles of magnum bottles of yellowtail lying around empty lying around her room in the Airbnb thing and she never had
+
+[50:48] houseguests over. This is some nice... Or it's Harold McGee. She blamed Harold McGee because Harold McGee did stay there once. All right, so listen, on the way out, I'll tell you quickly. my April fool show that we did. So this was in 1990. This was before we had anyone. We had one guy on the floor. This is in college. my freshman year, had a laser printer. He was a senior. No one had a laser printer. No one even no one laser printer, right? So what we did for April Fool's Day is all the freshmen lived in specific entryways in our college in our college dorm. And we wrote a letter, and I can still remember it to this day. We faked Yale Stationery, which is where I went to college. We faked Yale stationery, faked everything, and printed this letter out and gave it to every single freshman.
+
+[51:34] Due to the unusually high number of matriculating transfer students, we will not be able to offer a place in the sophomore class to all of our current freshmen. Please find below an application for sophomore standing to be filled out and handed in to your RA by the end of the week. And we folded it up along with an application and put it in everyone's cubbyhole
+
+[51:55] on like laser printed. And our state, our fake stationary looked better than Yale's real stationary at the time. We got the linen paper, we got everything. People flipped out and all of the all of the freshman counselors, right? played along. They all played along. and we didn't even talk to them about it. They just all played along. We like had people flipping the hell out. And that is the roughest April fools joke that I've ever been involved in playing on somebody. Cooking issues. Happy birthday.
+
+[52:34] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[52:42] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:01] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market, a dynamic leader in the quality food business, a mission driven company that aims to set the standards of excellence for food retailers.
+
+[0:09] For more information, visit Wholefoodsmarket.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraternetwork.org for 1000s more. Hey, hey, I'm Jim. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues, not Jimmy Carbone, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network
+
+[0:41] for Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Call your questions two. 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Stas, you like how I put a little Broadway to that? Did you see what that lady did? No, what you do. Looked at you with the disgusted look. Well, because I put the Broadway in my voice and she's clearly not a Broadway. Did you enjoy the... A customer? customer? Oh, cool. whatever. Like, that seat was there to punish customers. You know, they only put people there. that they hate that seat. Only when there's not a radio show going on, at least not when we're doing it. I mean, you know, you know what I'm saying? So, we are joined in the studio today with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Peter's coming for lunch Again, this is information that the people in out there in cooking issues, Land, don't need to know. I think they care. Yeah, but he's not here for them. not here for them. Hey, by the way, odds are Peter Kim took a shower this morning. No, no, I'm saying you know what? At some point this evening, Peter Kim will go to sleep, and then tomorrow he's going to wake up when he's thirsty, as David Letterman used to say, he will drink a cool, refreshing beverage, and it will slake his thirst. I mean, he's not going to be here to like, you know, for their benefit, so what the hell do they care? People like Peter Kim, I thought, but that's fine. But that's not like... Jack, are you with me on this at all? Join the booth also about Jackie Molecules? I don't know. There are some Peter Kim fans in the chat room. But I'm saying, like, that's even meaner then. Peter's not going to be here with you. that's what Stas is doing. She torturing them. It's like Peter's going to join us for lunch, but he won't grace you with his presence on the show, you know? Wow. Grace. Okay. Grace. So, unfortunately, not joined via telephone today with Professor Richard Rangham of the Harvard
+
+[2:24] University. Apparently, do you have a want wan noise in there, Jack? So strong, so strong. I wish I wish I played like a trumpet or anything like brass so that I could put a hat over the front of it and make that
+
+[2:42] noise. You know what I mean? It's just such a classic. It's like in your face. Can I hear that one more time? Wait. But what you do have is a boat. Oh my god. I mean, did you see it, Jack? Look, that might be one of the reasons. So here's the thing. The doctor gave me like free reign now to do whatever I want. Like I can take up my amateur career in boxing again. I have an amateur career in boxing. With my eye, like my eyes. But then over the weekend, I literally tore a muscle in my
+
+[3:13] arm ripping vines out of the ground in advance of them bloomings. Actually, I don't know. My wife is like, you need to go to the doctor. And I'm like, what the hell are they going to do about it? My arm hurts. Like, what does a torn, what does a torn thing feel like? Is anyone torn anything ever? Does anyone know what a torn thing feels? That's what they know of. I mean I've broken things. Malcolm says it hurts like hell. Yeah, but is it possible that it hurts? Like, in other words, like, I can move my arm, like, down like this. I can go bibbity, bibbity, bibbity, bibbity, boo, right? Bibbity, bibbity, boo, but I can't extend my arm. Yeah, nostalgia shoulder? No, it's right like on the side of my arm. Like, I can't extend my arm, like, I can't like punch Nastasia as much as I want to with my left hand, or like do like fist pumps in the air of victory with my left arm anymore
+
+[4:02] because of, like, intense, sharp pain. If you tore a muscle, you could be releasing whatever that stuff is. What the hell are you talking about? Like, there's some kind of, yeah, somebody told me that. Okay, yeah, somebody. You sound like Dax who, like, comes with him with the craziest theories from his dirtbag buddies, the craziest freaking
+
+[4:21] theories. Wow, dirtbag buddies is great band name. Oh my god, it's the best, right? Dirtbag buddies. Um, I use the term dirtbag buddy so much that I've actually called Dax's friends, dirtbag buddies, in front of the dirtbag
+
+[4:37] buddy's parents by mistake. I'm like, yeah, Dax is out with his dirt bag buddies. I mean not your kid. Your kid's not a dirtbag. I mean, they are. know what I mean? You know how it is. All kids are kind of dirtbags, right? But we love them. Look, I don't know that we have time to get into the boat. Look, I was at the dump, right? As I am wont to be at the dump and I picked up a, someone threw away a boat. Turns out it was made for the Sears and robot corporation in the mid 60s. It is a 14 foot fiberglass runabout, but the hole is fine. All I need to do is find a net. I found out later I can buy one of these for like $3.50 and I'm going to have a tough time getting it registered because it has no
+
+[5:17] owner and I can't find an owner and you have to? Yeah. It's like, you can't just like suddenly show up at the DMV with a car and being like, hey, where'd it come from? I found it. You know what I mean? It turns out you can't do that with a boat either. Be like, what is it? The dump gonna write you an affidavit. Yeah, yeah, that was dumped off here. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? How you register a boat that doesn't exist? Plus, I have to do a lot of fiberglass work. I have... You could go to the Sears company and you could give the thing. No, they don't make it. like Kenmore. don't make any of that stuff They don't make any of that stuff. And there's no online, there's no online way to trace boat ownership because I have the old Connecticut registration number on it. Anyway, it's not worth the amount of time and energy I'm going to put into this dang thing, but I definitely want to get that son of a gun out on the water. It's got a really cool, like, curved front windshield. It kind of Robin's egg. It's really nifty And the wood is still good. It's got a couple of problems, like all the metal is stripped off by freaking scavenger freak shows. You know, people show up at dumps with screwdrivers, just take off little pieces of metal. I mean whatever. It's good business, I guess. whatever. Uh, point being, uh, we, I have, I have a couple people. Remember Captain Jeff, Crazy Jeff intern. Yeah, he's a captain then? He is a Coast Guard. one of my favorite, like, cooking guys, Coast Guard, lunatic. He used to captain one of those rescue boats that can flip over in the water where in order to be on it, registrant, you have to strap yourself to the top side and it capsizes and it takes like a full minute to flip
+
+[6:42] around so you have to hold your breath underwater the whole time. He's the guy that married the judge and that he had a hearing in front of for some sort of crazy like 200 mile an hour speeding ticket or some nonsense on his motorcycle. That's a real story. No, it is a real story. And dude, the guy back when he was in the in the service was a demolitions expert. Guy's a straight nut job. Wow. Love that guy. Look, that guy, I don't know if anyone listening, why this person doesn't have some sort of a TV show, I have no freaking idea. It kind of looks like, what's the guy on the big Lebowski, his friend? I don't know. I haven't seen it. Who's an athletes him? Yeah. Anyway, he went to the French Culinary Institute, and so, you know, he's
+
+[7:24] a, he's a cooking guy as well, but I mean, man, he is like, he's like the Long Island version of Duck Dynasty without the beard. You know what I mean? He's like, you know what I'm saying? We gotta get him on the show. Yeah, sure. I love that guy He's a good guy. He always brings a gun with him. I don't know whether he still has his concealed carry, but he wants... okay I shouldn't say this, but since it's all over, I think it's okay. He was once packing freaking heat at the French culinary under his whites. Who are you going to shoot in the head at the French coat? Oh, plenty. Yeah, wow. Plenty. Anyway. All right. So we have some questions to get to. So we might as well get to them. Oh, you said when's the ring I'm gonna come on now? May 3rd. May third, huh? Unless he decides to cancel again. You know, I was going to be very favorable towards him on, not I mean, what his theories or his theories, but like there's some people who have come out kind of against his theories. I was talking about him last week. And I was going to, like, say all sorts of unpleasant things about them, but maybe now would be a little... No, not really, you know, me. Like I'm going to be excited to talk to him when he finally comes on, but whatever. Uh, so I'm sorry, there will be no Paleolithic discussions. There'll be no discussions of uh, division of labor, uh, early in humans. There will be no discussions of tuber consumption in
+
+[8:45] Paleo, Africa. It won't happen right now. Tell me. Till May. Tell me. All right. Kevin writes in, supporting you, actually, Nastasia. I know, me. I know. Stars. But you weren't thinking of these freaking things. You never had one of these things. The shrimp things you saw. Well, whatever. Let me read the thing. Oh, before people get all pretzled up. I have a comment and a couple of questions. Regarding the use, when you see RE, do you say regarding or do you say RE? I say regarding. Yeah. I'm going to start saying regarding, that's a lot better than saying RE. Yeah. Can we just there's a girl dressed in some kind of ancient garb out there. You see her? see someone in a red jacket. Her back is to us and she's putting a headpiece on. Now watch the front. Are you making... Why are you making fun of someone's clothes? It's so crazy. Do you want to take a collar before you get to this? Yeah, okay. She's not wearing a... She's got a Xena warrior princess out and on, but it's not ancient. It's Zena is not ancient. That's New Zealand modern. Okay, yeah. She's through the pipe. All right, yeah, call is the color there? Color. You on the air? Are you? Hello? Hello? here. Hello. It's Stephen from Indianapolis. How are you doing? All right, how you doing? Doing great. I had a question. Uh, you brought up, uh, I think like 2 or 3 weeks ago about the
+
+[10:03] Lawahi bread method. And we're going to talk about it again later. Go ahead. What were you saying? Sorry. Oh, no, and I think we might have to address it again later, but let's just hit it now. Let's just do it now. Go. Okay, well, my question was, um, so when you're looking at
+
+[10:19] the the gluten development in the Lahi bread method, I actually have like 2 breads going in my closet right
+
+[10:24] now over 18 hours and it's supposed to align and mature the gluten. Uh, and I know that like when you're making, and I, I, I try and consider like what you're doing with gluten in the way of, like when you're making
+
+[10:35] stretch noodles, you're lining up the gluten, right? How does the gluten mature in each situation? How is it different? Okay, well, you know, one of the theories, right? The theory of operation here on the on the no need and on a lot of stuff is that actually a lot of what you're doing when you're developing a dough simply isn't necessarily the aligning per se, but the actual hydration of the gluten.
+
+[11:01] I remember, you're going way back. I haven't actually thoroughly researched this subject in a long, long time, but that a lot of the strength of gluten is coming from strength of the gluten network isn't coming from the aligning, but rather the hydration and then the bonding of the gluten network,
+
+[11:22] right? And so that if you just let it sit there. And this is why, you know, also, I mean, most of these, uh, most of these breads are fairly high hydration, right? Like what's the hydration ratio on your, what do you got? Um, so it's uh, 400 grams of flower, 300 grams of water, so 75%? Yeah. Yes, that's fairly high hydration, right? I mean, by the way, for those of you that don't bake bread out there,
+
+[11:45] hydration in bread language. And in fact, I use this for like a lot of stuff, whenever I'm dealing with flowers, is a bakered percentage. So it's liquid expressed as a percentage of the flour that you put in. Right, it's not overall. It's just over. It's just over the flower. I mean, because most of the time when you're making bread, the rest of the stuff is so minimal anyway, so you're not counting like yeast and salt or any other
+
+[12:07] adjunct you're adding. But anyway, um, so they're fairly high hydration, right? And just by letting them sit around for a long time, the
+
+[12:15] gluten hydrates over hours and forms and network. And then usually, right, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but even in like the most simple one,
+
+[12:25] you have like an over, over, over, overstep inside of the inside of the, uh, whatever you're going to do to give it structure, right? Right, right, yes. Right. And so I think that is where, like, a lot of that stretching is super important is forming the internal structure of the bread.
+
+[12:46] And frankly, that's where like a lot of people uh, kind of fall short within within no need. where McGee, if you go back and read Harold McGee's articles on it, article on it in the New York Times, I think his main his main point is the bread is delicious. However, it's not necessarily easy using that technique to get a wide variety of internal structures on the bread,
+
+[13:09] right? Because it's fairly high hydration and there's not a lot of work. Whereas if you look at a lot of classic, uh, classic bread, um, a lot of classic breads, there's 2 things that are going on in the bread,
+
+[13:23] there, uh, well, 1000000s of things going on bread. I mean, in other words, there's the recipe itself, right? And then there's how it's manipulated. And only part of that manipulation. And I would say, from a functional standpoint, the least important part of that manipulation is how the bread is needed, right?
+
+[13:40] It's getting it to a certain point of development in terms of its gluten structure extremely important, right? But then once you get past that, then like different forming techniques take on their relative importance to give us the different shapes, the different outside crust textures, what the burst looks
+
+[13:58] like when it's slashed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so most of the criticisms I've heard of these relatively high hydration, relatively unworked
+
+[14:07] bread is, frankly, their lack of internal structure. Okay, so when you're looking at, like, the difference in structure between, like, a pulled noodle, which I've actually
+
+[14:18] attempted and it ended up miserably. Whose recipe did you use? What was that? Were you using the Chef Tom recipe? Uh, yeah, yeah, I was. Okay. Um, and uh, and I tried to, and I even did it like, like slapping it on the table like they do in the, you know, just to try and relax the gluten.
+
+[14:37] But I know that that's lineearizing the gluten. When you're making bread, it's actually like the kneading is really important in the structure of the bread because of the way that you're organizing the gluten after the proof.
+
+[14:47] Well, yeah, here's a couple things on the noodle recipe. My mental understanding of what's going on watching people make it, right, is you have actually an extremely slack dough. There's almost no elasticity to that thing, right? So in my mind, you're dealing with a situation where the gluten has been kind of
+
+[15:09] beat, literally, beaten into submission, right? So the structure of the dough is lineearized, but the actual gluten has been put into some sort of compromised form,
+
+[15:21] right? Clearly. Because if you take a well-developed dough, right? And you, you know, that you've needed a lot, and you push into it, it has some elasticity, it comes back, you stretch it, it stretches back. That's why, you know, um, That's why it does that. You can stretch it out thin because it's elastic, but if you just take a big hunk of dough and go, should
+
+[15:42] bluebe, it has some, it has some kind of pull to it. That's what the gluten, you know what I'm saying? And so it's definitely an overdeveloped dough, right? Now then the, but on the other hand, then why do they need to add, uh, why do they add a base to it, right? So base is strengthening the gluten. I don't know whether that's making it for quicker overdevelopment. I really don't understand it, but I felt the dough that you've made, and it feels dead in your hands, right? So pulled noodle dough in your hands. I'm sure you felt it too when you did it. It feels weird and dead. You know what I'm saying? because it doesn't have that kind of life that like an elastic kind of gluteny or like even like a pizza dough or something like that would have. Um, So frankly, I've never had good luck with that recipe either. Uh, my feeling is, is that pulled noodles is one of those things that, uh, once you get it right once or twice, you're going to get it right forever. You know what I'm saying? But it's a lot about, uh, the hydration and getting the texture uh, exactly right. Because, you know, the people I see doing it down, you know, the block from where I live. You know, I look at them and I don't, you know, think of them as being like some sort of, you know, enlightened Buddha. You know what I mean? They're not like some sort of being from on high that is given the knowledge of how to make noodles. you know, they probably just hung out with someone who knew how to do it. And then, like, so even Chef Tom, who, uh, I don't know what he's doing now, but he was maybe still is teaching at the at the cooking school that the French culinary owns out in San Jose. Um, I bet you, even if you hung out with him for a day, you could probably get it right. You know what I mean? It's all a question of just get it. There's some there's something to it to the feel of it that if you just get it right, it's going to go. But my feeling about it has always been that it's an overdeveloped dough. And so I wouldn't necessarily, in other words, if you were to take that dough, and you were to, uh, you know, somehow add yeast to it after you did that to it. I don't think it would make great bread. Right, right, right. Okay, and I guess one more point, and sorry, sorry for the multiple questions, but one more point to it is the difference between
+
+[17:52] the, the, the, the stretch, though, and ramen, right? They both have bass in them, but is there such thing as, so is it, is it a mechanical denaturation of the gluten? I'm a chemist, so I know it from like a chemical standpoint in the temperatures to in a thermal standpoint, but not like a, like, is there such thing as mechanical
+
+[18:08] denageration of gluten? Well, I mean, look, I, I, from an actual, um, chemical standpoint, I don't know. I do know that if you look at the farinographs of, um, so they would hook up, uh, you know, um, measurement devices to mixers, basically, and measure how much energy was being put into a mixer over time uh, in
+
+[18:29] dough development. It called a farinograph. And I think it is. I mean, I haven't looked at them in years, but you look at it and there's definitely a peak force that it takes to mix it and a breakdown stage.
+
+[18:40] So what that, yeah, what that would lead me to believe is that there's some sort of peak development after which there's destruction of that network, whether or not it recovers
+
+[18:50] again. Anecdotally, people say it does not, right? And there, and there are other, there are other does that are, that are based on the destruction of the dough structure, the most famous in the
+
+[19:03] US being beaten biscuits, right? So where you'll take a dough and you'll just beat the beat the ever loving snot out of it with
+
+[19:14] a with a rolling pan. I went through a period years ago where I was trying to make that dough via repeated lamination instead of actual physical violence and I was never able to get the exact texture through repeated lamination that I was able to get through the just immense physical violence of beating with large
+
+[19:33] sticks. Okay. Interesting. All right, thank you, Dave. I appreciate it. Hey, no problem. and let us know how it goes. Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information, and digital coupons, or visit Whole Foods Market.com to find a store closest to you. Have you listened to a taste of the past? It's a show devoted to connecting our current food world with its storied past. Host and culinary historian Linda Pelaccio. Welcome chefs, scientists, authors, scholars, and revolutionaries into the studio to discuss food culture and history from around the globe.
+
+[20:21] Have you seen the culture of food change over the past
+
+[20:25] 25, 30 years? It's been incredible. Linda covers content ranging from the history of black chefs in the White House to behavioral psychology and the evolution of Italian food in America. You can listen to a taste of the past anytime on heritageradionetwork.org or on iTunes and Stitcher. Today's program was brought to you by the 2016 Food and Enterprise Summit, presented by Slow Money NYC. Want to learn how to finance a better food system? Are you ready to showcase your food business or product in front of New York's top players in the food industry? Join like-minded entrepreneurs and investors at the 2016
+
+[21:01] Food and Enterprise Summit in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Tickets available at foodandenterprise.com. Save 20% when you enter special discount code Friends 20 for heritage radio network listeners. And so, and on that subject, you know, someone was saying... Oh, I have another call. Yeah, we do, but do you want to get to the thing, the shrimp thing first? Well, no, no, well, hold on. Yeah, well, yeah, call her you're on the air. Hi, Dave, it's David from California here. How you doing? Hey, good. Um, I'm going to be designing, uh, well, I'm designing a house, uh, for me and my family, but I was wondering if you had some tips about kitchen
+
+[21:39] design. Um, maybe just uh, whatever comes to your mind, although keep in mind that I'm probably going to be in an all electric situation, so no gas.
+
+[21:49] Okay. Are you like what area of California and what kind of neighborhood is it? Uh, well, I'm actually up in the mountains. Uh, and so we're at 6000 foot altitude, um, and it's, it can be cold. Oh nice. You're in the land of sugar pine cones, huh? Beautiful. I love it over there. Are you in the Sierras somewhere or somewhere, some other mountains in California? So, um, kind of sort of near Big Bear. in Southern California. you know where that is? Yeah, southern. I only know like, yeah. All right. What are you, stars? you know that stuff? St is like, yeah, I'm from down near there. Okay. So here's what I would say. I would say there are some things. I mean, go induction. If you're going to go electric to go induction, period. You know what I'm saying? And then get, you know, your range is going to be fine induction. How big is your family? Uh, just my wife and uh, a baby for for now. Well, congratulations on the baby. And are you going to try to integrate indoor and outdoor cooking? I'm sorry Are you gonna do have like an indoor outdoor situation? Are you going to try to have some of your cooking take place outdoors? Uh, yeah, I mean, I have a barbecue and a smoker. Um, although, uh, uh, that, you know, that's not the bulk of what I do. So what's the bulk of what you do? What do you like to cook? Um, I'm kind of a, uh, you know, a steak and potatoes kind of guy. although I am a deep fried maniac like you are. So, like, I'm going to say this up front. outside the house, like, like, I like having access from the kitchen to an outdoor place where the cooking
+
+[23:34] is. So if you're ever going to do cooking outside, like whether it be grilling or the stuff I'm about to talk about, you want to have very fluid and easy access between your main kitchen and outside and you want that outside cooking area to have a cover on
+
+[23:50] it, right? So you either want to build a separate cover for it or you want to have it close to the house where there's an
+
+[23:55] Eve that extends over it such that you can work. That's what I have. And you're going to want to put a deep fryer out there. You're going to want an outdoor deep fryer. I would run that sucker off of propane, which you can get so you don't have to worry about plumbing gas to the house. And since you're not going to use it every day, you can run it off of £20 things and it's not going to bankrupt you. I'm just going to make that suggestion right now. And you can, and, you know, take it for what it is, but like my, my situation like that works great because I have outside. I have the tandor, the fryer, and like an outdoor, um, prep station where I can work that's all protected from the rain. And I love that. it's right next to where my kitchen is Now it's not perfect because it wasn't designed, but it's pretty good for moving indoor and
+
+[24:35] outdoor and getting large amounts of food in and out properly because sometimes we'll be cooking outside and eating inside and vice versa and all that other stuff.
+
+[24:42] Inside, I would definitely go. I would 100% go induction. Um, the main thing I would like worry about is I don't know how you, you know, your relationship with, um, your spouse is or what they like, but the fight usually is between, uh, between
+
+[25:00] visible, uh, cooks and the non-cooks is between visible, uh, exposed storage of things and closed in. I'm a huge advocate for trying to have as much non-enclosed storage as is humanly
+
+[25:11] possible and throwing away as many non-matching things as
+
+[25:17] is humanly possible. And this usually comes at odds because people think it's ugly. Also, if you don't cook a lot, exposed storage gets dusty, but if you do cook a lot, then you do what I do, which
+
+[25:29] is I have like 4 sizes of bowl, and I only have those 4 sizes of stainless steel
+
+[25:34] bowl, and they stack, and you're always pulling the one on top, so it never gets dusty.
+
+[25:38] You know what I'm saying? You have to dust the shelves and stuff, but the things themselves never get dusty. So I'm a huge advocate of that. Here's another one. Build a build a speed rack, not a bar speed rack, but a, like one of those cooling racks that, uh, that tray, uh, tray rack speed rack that you can put, uh, sheet trays into. Build one of those if you ever like entertaining. Build one of those into your kitchen. I have one that's on casters and it can roll in and out and I have one, you know, in my apartment that doesn't. And you can just, you know how when you're cooking, you have like a bunch of
+
+[26:13] food and you can't get that food out of the way to cook the next round of food if you're doing like a party or something like
+
+[26:19] this. If you have one of those rack trays. You can just, you can just sheet up entirely huge amounts of stuff and throw it into the sheet rack while you're working on the next thing or like if you're like
+
+[26:30] me and let's say you make Christmas cookies. I mean, I don't know what you do, but let's say you're like me and you make Christmas cookies. You want to make a whole bunch of Christmas cookies. Normally these things will be spread all over your house. it would be a freaking nightmare while you're making them. But if you have one of these speed rack things, you can just start throwing
+
+[26:45] the sheet trays into a tray after tray after tray. So I would make sure that A, your oven can handle a full-size sheet tray because it's just so versatile if you're ever going to do entertaining. I would uh, electric. I would then, if I were you, I would use, I would go into someplace, whatever oven you're going to get, I would go in and use it a couple times. Like, I hate, hate a lot of the control functions on modern electric ovens. Like, for instance, like, I have an, one of my ovens is an electric oven, right? You know what I use it for? You know what I use it for 80% of the time? Warming, warming. 80% of the time. It a warming oven. So like, I'll be cooking a bunch of stuff in my tandor or on the grill, or I'll have like a whole bunch of pancakes that I'm making on the griddle, right? And then I want to keep them warm. But every time that I uh, every time that I want to uh, use the oven to keep it warm, it takes me 35 to 45 seconds to turn it on and turn the temperature down because they, you know, they assume that when you press go on your oven, you want it
+
+[27:48] at 350. And so to make it, say, 170, you have to sit there forever with your finger on a button, hate, hate.
+
+[27:54] So I would look into things like that. Actually, if you can believe it, Dave, I have a CVAP. Ah, yeah, yeah. See, so, you know, you didn't tell me this. Now you go entirely different. So if I were you, here's something like, it depends on how sustainable you want to be, right? One of my dreams, and no one has ever done it. In fact, although it's, uh, not any Armstrong, Louis Armstrong, the musician, right? what's it called? a dishwasher? No, dishwasher. Commercial dishwasher, right? Why doesn't anyone make a commercial dishwasher that has a residential mode that says,
+
+[28:31] hey, look it. I have an hour to sit here while you wash dishes, right? And you can be eco-friendly, blah, blah, and quiet, all bosch like. You know what I'm saying? And then, but it's like, I have a party. There's 30 people here, cook the dishes, clean them, clean them, clean them, clean them. And then you press it and they're clean in a minute, a minute and a half, like a commercial dishwasher. And for that minute and a half during the party, yeah, tremendous energy
+
+[28:54] waste, but it's only for that short amount of time. Why doesn't no one build that? Why does nobody build that, David? Why? Yeah. So you know what people do? You know what people with money have to freaking do? By 2 dishwashers. What a freaking waste of kitchen space, 2 dishwashers is. But it's the only way to get around it. If you're a party master, because you're going to wind up, like your kitchen's going to fill with dishes. People have commercial dishwashers in their house. Who? I've seen them Who? I've seen them. Really rich people. Yeah, but they're not good for normal use because they're entirely, so you have to have a
+
+[29:28] commercial, and then you have to have a, but you have to have a commercial, and then you have to have a regular residential unless you hate the environment. Do you hate the environment, Nastasia? Well, you know, he lives in California. He's not allowed to hate the environment. He lives in the mountains. He's not allowed. like you physically you're not allowed. You'd be looked down upon by everyone in your community. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? in the mountains. Yeah, especially in the mountains. Why would you live in the mountains if you didn't like the environment? Yeah, but residential dishwashers run for an hour. Yes, but it doesn't waste much... No, no, no. There's so much more efficient. There's so much more efficient than it seems like it's a waste, but they're very eco-friendly compared with, and they use a lot less power. So that's the other question. You're going to get 220 volts. Oh, thank you, Elliot Papinot, Jonathan Sawyer, the chef at what's the restaurant? The Cleveland chef. Yeah, he's got one. At his house. Does he love it? Does he love, love, love it? I would assume so You know what? It's so freaking easy because someone like Hobart also like can make stuff for home, just
+
+[30:30] like, just like team up with a home person, charge 3 times as much. How many gallon, how much more energy? Oh my god, nostalgia. 1000 times? Oh, I mean, it's like a lot more. They're completely not efficient. First of all, they're they're bad for your dishes because they're running super hot and they have like a little boiler that heaps of that water up to tremendous temperatures. They're just, but they're freaking monsters, huh? Right? And the other thing about him that's nice is that if you have parties a lot, like I have, like, here's what's depressing, right? Commercial glass racks are awesome because you have glasses that you're only
+
+[31:07] going to use at parties, right? So you put them in commercial glass racks and they're so close to fitting in a regular residential freaking dishwasher. So if you just like modified them a little bit, you could store all of your party glasses in racks, you could live like a normal human 90% of the
+
+[31:24] time and then rack and roll when you're putting in having parties, you know what I'm saying? Well, whatever. That's life, big city. Yeah. We do have another color. All right, caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hello? Hey, uh, it's Josh from Virginia. Um, I had a quick question on if you had any advice to control bubble size
+
+[31:45] when uh, carbonation, uh, carbonating cocktails out of a COP tank. We're running a CO2 tank through at the hose in the uh, you know, screw on cap. Okay. Okay, how are the bubbles now and which way do you want them to go? They're really, really small, like Perrier-esque. And I would like to get them up larger towards, like, Toko Chico size, ideally. So like a kind of mix of medium and large. Okay. So, for a given liquid, right? For a given liquid, bubble size is going to be determined 100% by the amount of CO2 that is in the beverage and the temperature that it's
+
+[32:29] at. In other words, like how fast the CO2 is leaving, is going to determine the bubble size. So, uh, one thing to do is to get your CO2 your CO2 dissolved, not necessarily the pressure you're carbonating at, but getting the dissolved CO2 level to be much higher.
+
+[32:46] So ways to do that are to make it colder, right? Or to make it clearer or to uh, carbonate it um, multiple times or more times than you're doing now with a lot of foaming off in between to make sure that you're getting the maximum amount of CO2 in
+
+[33:04] there. So if you have your thing and you let it sit for like 15, 20 minutes, if you reattach your CO2 tank and start shaking it again and you hear the gas going from the tank into your beverage, it means
+
+[33:15] you haven't fully added as much CO2 to that beverage as is possible.
+
+[33:20] Okay? So within a given beverage. The bubble size will be determined by those things. And for instance, for note on temperature, just think about when you crack open a cold cell server versus when you crack open a warm seltzer and the bubble size difference
+
+[33:33] there just because the bubbles are leaving at a tremendously faster rate. And so the bubbles get bigger as they're traveling from the bottom to the top of the glass. Really, once a bubble forms. Its size is pretty much dependent on, A, the characteristics to the liquid, which we're going to talk about in a minute, and how fast CO2 is leaving the liquid and going into that bubble in the short time it has from when it forms near the bottom of your glass to when it bursts on the surface of the liquid,
+
+[33:59] right? Okay. So now we've dealt with those kind of physical factors. And there's a liquid itself. So, uh, things like salt, uh, like the
+
+[34:08] larger that they dissolve mineral content in it, the kind of smaller, the bubble perception is going to
+
+[34:15] be and the size of the bubble is going to be. That's why like a lot of fairly carbonated, like very mineralized waters don't appear to be that
+
+[34:22] bubbly, even though there actually is a lot of CO2 in them. I'm talking to you, German waters. And, um, the, you know, other thing, it's gonna,
+
+[34:31] it's like alcohol content, so if you want larger bubbles, you lower the alcohol content, um, or anything like that that affects
+
+[34:38] the uh, surface activity of the liquid, right? So, um, you know, increasing the alcohol content will decrease the surface uh, tension and increase of viscosity. And so your bubbles will start getting larger and foamier, right? So at least that's my, it's been a while since I, I think that's right. But anyway, so like there's a liquid itself, but I would focus on physical things first. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let us know how it works. Yeah, well, thanks. Cool. Wow. All right. So let's get, so what were we talking about? Tortoise. This isn't even a question. It's a comment. Torta, okay, regarding the use of torta, tamine sandwich and Mexican cuisine. and just so you know, this is from Kevin, and he's defending Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez, Kevin, defending Stas, like she needs someone to defend
+
+[35:25] her. Please, please. Torta definitely means sandwich. How do you, no tangents, no tangents. Tota definitely means sandwich. However, I've also seen it used commonly in Mexico to mean something like a fritter slash patty. Right? Which is not what you said, Nastasia. Because my sister had this like... You said folded fried, yeah. Folded nest. Hey, whoa, whoa, family show. No, Laren's in enough. Oh geez. They'll learn. Let him learn. It's like, you know, your kid stubs stubs their toe. They like, oh, it hurts. get used to get used to pain. My mom makes tortos de Cameroon, which is basically a whipped egg and ground shrimp mix that's pan fried. By the way, I've had that. I just thought I'd share since I never really thought about how a torture refers to both until your sandwich conversation this week.
+
+[36:16] I actually like those things. You ever had those? I think they're made with dried shrimp. They have that dried shrimp taste, but they're good. It's like they're like, they're like little patties and I think they're served like in like a, I think it's a tomato-y sauce. I've had them. Um, I've had at least a style that comes from Guerrero. They're good. I like them, but they're not a sandwich. They're not even an open face sandwich, which as we all know. not a sandwich. Uh, here's the question. My friend and I were talking about people cooking ethnic food of a culture that is not their own.
+
+[36:45] There was a recent NPR article on this where Rick Bayliss was featured. When my friend asked me if there's a certain form slash presentation that differentiates
+
+[36:54] high-end food from plebeian food. What are your thoughts on this? Um, Well, I don't know. What are your thoughts on that stuff? I don't know I have some thoughts on it, if you don't have thoughts. I mean, I thought... What was the, what's the issue here? So the question is, is like when you're taking another ethnic food, right? Why is it, this is what I get out of it. Why is it that a lot of times it can be seen as low end or why is it difficult sometimes to go high end with certain ethnic cuisines? And furthermore, why, you know, why is it that some presentations are seen as highbrow and some are seen as lowbrow when you're
+
+[37:33] going, and I'll give you an example. Like, many years ago, I went to, and even recently, you go to like a French restaurant and they do something that
+
+[37:41] is, like they put 5 spice powder on it, right? They go, they go Asian in that sort of very, very kind of pedestrian sense of just putting 5 spice powder on it.
+
+[37:50] Like, all of a sudden, like, for a lot of taste, for a lot of consumers, it's going to get knocked a couple pegs down in refinement in their minds just because they associate certain flavor
+
+[38:02] palettes and they associate certain cooking techniques and presentations with less expensive cuisines,
+
+[38:11] right? And we've had this discussion a little bit regarding Mexican cuisine when I, when we got back from Mexico and we were, I was upset that there's no way you're ever going to have those Florida Calabasa freaking quesadillas, like you have in Mexico because no stupid
+
+[38:25] idiot America. I love Americans, but none of us are smart enough to pay what it would cost to have those kind
+
+[38:33] of, whereas Italian is allowed to be simple, rustic, and refined at the same time, not to the level of like French, right? But everyone knows that you're paying for these fancy ingredients. And so you'll pay a lot for something simple if it's got an Italian label on it. Stupac makes all the time. He's like, everybody wants cheap, cheap, cheap tacos, cheap, like where are the best cheap tacos? That's the question everybody asks, right? Right. I get what you look for. Right, and nobody, in other words, like, it's very difficult to get someone to spend, you know, a lot of money on something that they don't feel is that different
+
+[39:03] from, that's the thing. It's like perceived difference and perceived value. So the question is, how do you get someone? So at Empeon Casino, for instance, he's not doing, you know, really, it's not really Mexican
+
+[39:15] food. He's inspired by that stuff, but it's like you can see the presentation work on the plate. And the kind of work. And so it gets to jump into a high, you know, into a high level kind of
+
+[39:26] a situation. So, or if you go, like, Nastasia and I were at Cosme last week, Enrique Alvera's restaurant here in New York, and, you know, and so there I think they successfully are jumping to a high-end presentation, but it's because it's a bunch of stuff that no one here has ever tasted before, right?
+
+[39:43] Ingredients that never tasted before. So some of the stuff, you know, makes sense like tortillas, right? But, you know, but a lot of the stuff is, is, is, um, you know, not the flavor palate that people are used to. And so they're, they can take the jump out of their mind and, you know,
+
+[39:57] not, like Americans, and maybe people in the world aren't necessarily smart enough to understand a very, very well executed plate of beans being worth a lot of money,
+
+[40:08] right? I mean, the exception is risotto. For some reason, people realize that risotto is difficult, and so you can spend a lot of money on like a risotto Milanese and not feel ripped off, right, Stas? Um, I don't know. Like another way, like if you look at, uh, you know, Danny Bowen at Mission Chinese, right? So, Chinese food other than banquet cuisine, where you're spending money just on really, really expensive materials, like
+
+[40:36] sharks fan, and, you know, not that you should buy, I mean, obviously you shouldn't, but or bird's nest or see cucumber or any one of these other things. Like, um, you know, it's hard to get people to spend a lot of money on that in the
+
+[40:48] US if it tastes traditional. I mean, I think that was the genius of someone like uh, Danny at Mission Chinese was having it be, not that it's that expensive compared to, you know, what we think of as
+
+[40:59] high, high end, but it's like uh, having something being so not what you're used to tasting in that category so different from what you would get at the standard restaurants that it gets to punch through that barrier and go on the other
+
+[41:10] side. You know what I'm saying? Side note tangent. I just bought a whole bunch of the red Sichuan peppercorns, got them at home. That kind of mopo numbing thing. Yeah, get emission. Yeah, you like those? He uses them at the absolute limit of what I find enjoyable.
+
+[41:25] Yeah, exactly. right at the limit. Right at that limit. And in fact, it's funny. It's weird with it's weird with certain lines. It's weird with a lot of wines, that stuff. One more note on Mission Chinese before we get kicked off the air, and I'm missing all the other questions I have to answer. But, uh, something I didn't understand. You know they have a wood fired oven at Mission Chinese, did you know that? Yeah. And so like they use it for a bunch of presentations, but because they had the wood fired oven, they kind
+
+[41:48] of they make these pizzas there, right? These kind of like Neapolitan style kind of pizzas, they make one with pepperoni on it. And for a while after I know they had it, I was like, why do they why do they do that, right? Why do they have those pizzas there? Because it's not in keeping with the rest of the menu? It doesn't really make sense from a mental point on the menu, right? And then I went there with my kids. And I was like, this is the smartest freaking thing that anyone has ever done at a
+
+[42:13] restaurant. And I think restaurant owners take note of like, it's hard to step outside of yourself, right? And what you do for a living, but I think this is the kind of like where, I mean, not that, you know, Nastasia gave me the
+
+[42:25] face because not like Danny needs anyone or those crew need anyone blowing extra sunshine in their nether regions, but I think they're really good at what they
+
+[42:32] do. You know what I mean? And, um, Like, I never would have thought to do that there because in a way, like, you don't know that you have permission in quotes to make that kind of food at that restaurant, but then now I can shuffle, uh, shove as
+
+[42:45] much uh, mapa tofu into my mouth as I care to shove in my mouth and my kids are sitting there eating pizza and they're happy as clams. Right? And so and then they want to go back. Makes life so much more enjoyable if you have kids. You know what I'm saying? Cooking issues. That's it. All right, thanks. See you next week.
+
+[43:10] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[43:19] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Dave Arnold, host of cooking issues. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:21] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Well, not really anywhere near noon this time, huh? Like 1219 from a Burst Peachuita in Bushwick, Brooklyn. We're pushing noonish today, huh? Pushing new inish. Yeah, nah, noon-ish. You know what? I choose the same seat every week, Jack, and yet I hate the microphone at my seat because it will not point up. It's got to go Lemmy. You got to go full lemmy on this damn microphone. Yeah. Go motorhead for all you motorhead fans. Joined as usual. Well, obviously, with Jackson, since we're talking. Hey, Jack. How's it going? pretty good. Yeah. And of course, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. Good. Good. You exist. This still exist. special guest in the studio today. We have Angela Garbitz. How do you actually pronounce it? Garbitz? Garbette? You said it right. Yeah. Yeah. One of my awesome close to the mic there, Angela. one of my all-time favorite interns ever at the French culinary back, by the way, do you call it the International Culinary Center?
+
+[1:25] I no. It's French culinary. Yep. French culinary. She is from the great hails from the great state of Nebraska. By the way, I don't know if any, I don't know if we have any listeners in Nebraska. Uh, but Jack, do you know what Nebraska's Nebraska's motto is? I don't. Well, do you know, let me put it this way. They have a new weak motto. What is a new week model, Angela? Isn't it Nebraska nice? That's the worst motto in the world. It's the worst. Nebraska man, it's nice. Like, what do you say, Stas, what do you say about someone that when you're like, eh? Hey, how'd your date go, Nastasia? He was a nice guy. Yeah, he wasn't like, like, you didn't want to stab his eyes out maybe, but you did want to stab yours because you were so bored. Nebraska. Nice. Whereas you know what it used to be, Jack? I see something here. I looked it up. see if you have the same thing. Possibilities. Endless. Dot, dot, dot. Oh. Endless. Endless. Interesting, because the internet tells me the Nebraska motto is equality before the law.
+
+[2:28] Yeah. Yeah? Do you feel that everyone's equal before the law in Nebraska? think there's a lot of recent legislation that would say that it's not. Like, what do you got going on in Nebraska? A lot of LGBT stuff that's not good. Really? Yeah. Are they, are they, they going that, that way? They haven't They're not one of the couple of states that just passed the, you're allowed to, speaking of baking cakes, we could talk about this in a minute, but they're not one of the anti-cake baking for gay marriage states, are they?
+
+[2:54] I hope not because I'm going to jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, they don't say you can't. They just say that you don't have to. Okay, I have no idea. You're allowed to refuse cake baking services for like anyone
+
+[3:06] who you, see, theoretically, right? If you can refuse to bake a cake for, uh, like,
+
+[3:11] for a gay weight, can you just be like, you know what? I don't like the cut of that dude's jib, no cake for you. Actually, that would kind of be like that. I mean, like if someone was just a jerk in general and just refuse randomly cake service to people, then it would become an internet phenomenon. It wouldn't be a, that person would make 1000000000s of, not billions, but they would make a lot of money. It'd be really bad. This would be a bad idea, but if they literally just randomly flipped a coin when you showed up,
+
+[3:33] and were like, no cake for you. Probably not for you. Not for you. Sorry. Yeah, no cake. So let's talk about cake. So, Angela, you have opened a bakery. Almost a year ago, yeah. Yeah. And so why don't you tell us about your bakery? called Goldenrod Pastries. We do a lot of alternative diet stuff and it's just a really kind of happy place to be. We do try to be very inclusive with what we
+
+[3:55] serve people and just try to make it a really happy, fun place. So it describes me what an alternative diet is. Gluten-free, dairy free, vegan paleo. Oh my god. How do you do all of those things? Do you all at the same time or do you have different things? All at the same time. Everything you do is all of those things? No, it's like, you know, probably 90% of what we do is gluten free. Yeah. And then... You didn't never develop the gluten allergy yourself. You're not one of those. You still eat gluten at home. I usually eat gluten. Yeah, gluten gluten, good stuff. It's so good I don't eat dairy. Don't eat dairy? For the most part. But I'm on vacation now, so I'm an international. Let me tell you something. This is a little known fact, but Angela's dad, like, runs the Nebraska beef, like, board,
+
+[4:37] like, the publicity wing or the whole board. It's just the Department of Ag. Department of Agriculture, but he's big on Nebraska beef. Nebraska beef, yeah. We have good beef. So do you, that's the paleo section. So do you make muffins entirely out of beef? It's just beef muffins. Can you like take make a meatloaf and make a beef muffin? It's perfect. Yeah, that might be the only cupcake I would like. We're across the street from a 7th day Adventist college. They would not eat the beef muffin. Oh, so you're catering to your neighborhood. I mean, everybody wants different diet stuff right now. Yeah. Seventh day advanced college? Huh. Are they good customers? They're great. really nice people. Yeah? But they try to eat really healthy. Oh yeah. but why? In other words, like, if you believe if you believe that it's all about to be over. Why eat healthy? I'm going tell you something. Stas, let's say you knew, you know what? You only got like a couple of weeks left. It's about to be over. Are you going to be cutting down on your saturated fats? No, you're going to be taking like, you know, I'm going to dive into like a swimming pool of fried chicken. Or something like this. Easily. Yeah. fried chicken all the time Just munch through that stuff. I used to think it would be good to jump into a swimming pool full of seltzer, but then I think it might hurt your moist parts. All of your moist parts. Yeah, yeah. too prickly. Yeah, but have you ever on a hot summer day been so thirsty that you wish you could just go open your mouth and just have it like
+
+[5:57] seltzer, just flow into it? Yep. Sounds great. Yeah, I mean, I can do that at home. you know, do the 1st approximation with my seltzer rigs. Anyway, okay Maybe you need 2 pools. One with seltzer, one with fried chicken. Oh my god. It would be so gross. Like when you hit the fried chicken smack. And then after the 1st, like, 10 bites, like, what, you got, earth your worm your way through fried chicken, that's just the nastiest. You just belly flop. You belly
+
+[6:18] flop and then try to chew your way through the fried chicken. It's just not a pleasant... Yeah? What is the food stuff that you could consume the most of in a row? Me? In a row. I'm not saying like the most. I'm saying like, would tire of the least. This is a great question. Jack, what do you got for me? First thing that came to my mind is like popcorn. Yeah, it's not that much weight. not that much weight. You're not actually massing up with that. Right, right, right, right. I want to say 12 ice cream sandwiches. Oh, yeah. They're delicious. I mean, probably fried chicken. Really? Or beef. I hear the leaner the beef, the more you can eat. No, it's pasta. I can like, if I could probably just like finish a pound plus in one sitting, you know, if no one stops me. Wait, a pound of dry freaking pasta? You cook it, you eat it? I could, I think. Yeah. I mean, I've, yeah. You win hardcore, man. That's hardcore. Be like, you look down at your bowl and be like, should I have another bite? No. He's like, is my boredom level so high that it's actually better for me to take this next bite of pasta than to just sit here and stare at the wall?
+
+[7:26] I'd be like, wow, damn, that's hardcore. You know what I mean? Back in the day, though, like I don't like lean beef. I like my beef with fat in it unless it's dried. But they used to say when they used to do the buffalo hunts when they were trying to exterminate the buffalo out in your neighborhood, actually. They, uh, uh, you know, that you could eat a huge quantity of buffalo meat. Huge, huge. Huge. Huge. Endless possibility of endless buffalo meat. Sounds terrible. Well, apparently there's not like a lot of fat, so you don't get seated and it's so high in protein that I guess you are always kind of just can just eat a little more and you're just like pounding it. So do you actually make beef muffins? Can you make a beef muffin? Probably. How it's a paleo muffin? What a paleo? Probably just take it to CrossFit. They would love it. Really? What's a paleo muffin? You like get some, like, you rip grass out of the ground and, like, bake it? What do you do with the paleo muffin? Coconut flour, coconut oil, coconut milk? Why is that paleo? Like what makes it paleo? That's a great question. How many Paleolithic people were baking muffins out of coconuts? They just had so many coconuts. Well, if you were in those neighborhoods, you can eat almost all coconuts. Coconut is a miracle product. I love a coconut. I love a coconut. Why would a let me ask you a question. I know it's not your diet. But, uh, like, I need to, I need to get more in depth with the, with the paleo stuff because people
+
+[8:44] are, like, wildly, some people are wildly pro, pro paleo, right? But the thing is, is there was no one Paleolithic diet that anyone can point to. It's all very, very contentious. We'll talk about this more, I guess, when Richard Rangam, if he ever comes back on the show. When do you say he's coming to us? I think it needs a new name, that diet. It should call it, they just mean like, don't use agricultural? Well, they're all agricultural products now. Yeah. Anyway, when Rangum comes on, I hope any of the pro-Paleo people, if we have any listening, we'll call and pepper him with questions about the
+
+[9:15] Paleodic. That would be interesting. Yeah. It's just a bad name for the diet, I think. It's too confusing Yeah. The diet's fine, but the name is not right. Yeah, what do you think you have an alternative name? No. Fat diet. Fat diet. Android, do you have a? Do you have the food that you could plow through the most of? I mean, now all I can think about is fried chicken. Oh, yeah, you did. You said fried chicken. Which one? Stas, what's your answer to this? what's your answer to this? I think, I mean, I like ice cream sandwiches a lot. That's the real answer is ice cream sandwiches. I mean I like them a lot. And like, the thing is, is I'm trying to think, like, some of my favorite things in the world, like, for instance, like, bacon, poached egg, cheese, English muffin sandwiches, those are good. Really good, right? I once ate 10 of them and I didn't want to eat another one. Oh, man. When I made it through, like, the 11th, 12th ice cream sandwich, I was like, you know what? If I had another one on my plate, I would eat it. Where did you do this? In college when it's all free. You know, and it's all sitting around. It's not free. It's a sun cost. I remember, I still remember to this day, like I had this like pyramid of ice cream sandwiches on my on my plate. I nuked the 1st one. I figured the rest would temper out as I got, you know, down things. I like my ice cream sandwiches tempered, even when I was in college, you know,
+
+[10:22] I'm not a freaking meanderthal. I like tempered ice cream sandwich. They're not as good when they're hard. It's not as good, especially with the crappy quality ice cream that they have, the texture that's just no good when they're hardened. Anyway. What about peanut butter cookies? That's the thing that you can really work your way through. Really? I think so. You think, I don't know. Anyway, so this guy comes up, walks to me, tries to take an ice cream sandwich off my
+
+[10:41] plate, like I got it for the whole crew. I'm like, hey, hey, there's more back in the freaking kitchen. Go get your own. these are mine. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the 10th, the 10th, uh, you know, English muffin, uh, poached egg, bacon, cheat. No, I was like, ah, I'm done. I'm done. You know, I also once ate. you know what you're familiar with the Ben and Jerry's ice cream confection called the Vermonster. No. You have to go to the store to get the Vermontster. It's 20 scoops of ice cream, toppings of your choice. I won't take one of those by myself. Sounds like a nightmare. I had a very fast metabolism back then. How did you feel? Great. I don't do that stuff anymore. I've got kids and my wife really doesn't want me to, you know, Jen does not want me to imbue Dax. Booker's not going to do any of this stuff, but doesn't want me to like, uh, imbue the, um, love of, uh, this kind of eating feet on Dax. Thinks it would be a mistake. What do you think, Steph? Yeah, I can see Dax trying to do that. Yeah, but do you think it's a mistake? Um, maybe. I mean, you already teach them a lot of other weird crap. Speaking of weird crap. Wait, Stas, what's your answer to this question? Oh, I was going to say popcorn like you. Last night I ate a whole tin of caviar. Oh, nanny, nanny. It's free. Woo, nothing. I think I could eat that all the time. Really? Really? Really? Did you have a hangover from assault? Really? What do you eat it on? Crackers? You spooned it in your face? You know what? Oh, sushi. That's what I could just keep eating forever. You know why you think that? Because it just costs so damn much. That's why, you know what I mean? Like, I've had my fill of all you can eat sushi because that stuff has grown. That's not what I mean. Can you get sick? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you get like a really good old makase. I could usually, I usually feel like, yeah, I'll run it back. I could do that all again, you know? Yeah, I know, but who could afford to ever... Right, if it were free. Have you ever been in situations styles where the sushi was unlimited and you had to stop because you weren't just sick of being in
+
+[12:45] there? Stas like stops eating for like other reasons. Like, I'm sick of being here. I gotta go now. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like that, actually. Like, we've had this discussion before on the air, but see, Angela hasn't been here for that, but what are your
+
+[12:57] feelings? As soon as I put the last morsel of food in my mouth, I am done. I want to be out of there. I want to be gone. Oh, restaurant. Out. Done. Done. Ozersky wrote something great about that once where he's like in the future, there will just be a chip in my head and I can immediately leave and I'd have to sit there in shame, you know, after the last bite. But why is it shame?
+
+[13:16] I've seen I've seen Ozerski eat and actually it was shameful. He took me to, I swear to God, he took me to... I don't normally frequent these establishments, but he took me to a strip club that
+
+[13:28] ser, Adam Prairie Lang was the chef there at the time, so it's real... Yeah, I swear to God, it was Penthouse Club. And like, and we're trying to have a serious discussion. Have we ever discussed this on air? We have? Yes. I remember what we did was a long time ago. I'm trying to have a, you know, Joshua Zorski, of course, died last year, fortunately. But trying to have a serious discussion about the tenderness of freaking steak while he's getting a lap dance. I'm like, what the hell? Like, how am I supposed to have a conversation? Was he able to have a conversation? Didn't seem to phase him. Didn't he like, I'm like, this is uncomfortable. Were you looking at the woman? I mean, like, I don't know, like, like, you're not supposed... What am I supposed to do? Like, Keith's not, you can't have a normal conversation with someone while that's going on. But were you looking at the woman? What do you mean, look into it? The woman and the Ozerski were in one unit. She was giving him a lap dance. Were you looking at Ozerski? I was kind of like trying to like talk and look at the steak while I'm talking about the steak. Just have a normal dinner, pretend it's not there. Yeah, but then that's rude. But where's the table with the food if they were able to get a lap dance? You have to push the chair back. Oh my goodness. It's like a normal freaking table. with like steak, and then all of a sudden a lap dancer comes out. And money exchanges, exchanges
+
+[14:47] thongs or whatever happens in those situations. Yeah. It just a strange combination. I think I want my, I mean, I think I would want that, you know, like kind of divided, not like together. You know what I'm saying? Sounds like a tough time to eat a steak. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, what? Adam Perry Lang, of course, the steaks were delicious. I mean, he's good cook. You know what I mean? Anyway. I have a chat room question if we want to jump right to that. Sure, jump to that. And if you have any live questions, call them at two. 7184972128. 718-497-2128. chat room question? Yeah, well this one's pretty live. came in like just now. So from Kyle Alberta. That's right, with a D. Question. I'm christening my new deep fryer with a big deep fry for everyone at work, getting requests for candy bars and mott sticks. No. No. Dude, these need a liquid nitrogen dunk prior to the batter and fry. Wait, what's a mat stick? A mon stick? Mozzarella sticks? Oh, mon? Oh, mon? yeah Okay, here's the thing. Here the thing. Here is the thing. Candy bars. Let me tell you, let me some tell you. The 1st time you fire up your deep fat. of all, I don't know what kind of deep fat fryer you have. So it's all a question of what kind of a nightmare situation you can you can deal with. But when you deep fry a candy bar, If the coating on that candy bar is not, uh, it does not stay intact during the frying
+
+[16:03] procedure, it is going to, uh, you'll have like mostly a case and then as this liquid on the inside, I guess there's not that much liquid.
+
+[16:11] Most of the stuff like with mozzarella. It will start pumping said product out of the hole into your
+
+[16:16] oil where it will ruin everything. Now mozzarella sticks, they're fine. I usually fry them from frozen though, right? I think, I don't do, I don't do a lot of, you know what's really good to fry is queso de Friere. It doesn't melt, but it's not as gooey as a mozzarella stick. You have to eat them right away because they get squeaky. I never did a lot of fried mozzarella. I have done it. The worst fried thing. Look, if you're gonna christen your, just do freaking fried chicken and donuts, do fried chicken and donuts. And let me say this, cake donuts, even though, like, even
+
+[16:45] though if God were to make a donut, it would be a cake donut, you should start with a yeast donut, because they're incredibly forgiving compared to a cake donut. But like you make a good yeasted donut and like a bunch of fried chicken and
+
+[16:58] French fries, do a good job with the French fries, and everyone thinks you're a fried genius, even if it's the 1st time you're ever fried in your life. By the way, The easiest thing in the world to fry with your fried chicken, maybe not as impressive for most people,
+
+[17:10] onion rings, onion rings. I'll tell you why. You can use the same batter for the onion rings that you use for the
+
+[17:17] chicken, and for some reason people don't get pissed off. People aren't like, it's the same batter. You're using the same battle on both. They don't get pissed off. You know? So what's your paleo fry batter, Angela? Probably coconuts. Really? Coconut flour, probably. But can you fry? I've never... I've never Why not? didn't they have animals with fat in them? You wouldn't be able to fry like with strict paleo. you couldn't fry with regular oil You fry with rendered fucking rendered lard. Yeah. Yeah, fry with that. Yeah. Call her whenever you're ready. All right, we can get back to the frying in a second, but yeah, I would freeze the candy bars and make sure you double dip and get a good coating on it so they don't bleed out. Dude, if you do something like falafel, make freaking sure that it's not
+
+[18:01] going to leak apart to a small test in oil, I once had an exploding falafel ball situation where I put an entire thing of falafel into my fryer and it disintegrated into the fryer and settled into a cake on the
+
+[18:11] bottom. Bad news. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi, is this Dave Arnold? It is. Wow, Dave Arnold, I'm a huge fan. My name's Mindy. Oh, Mindy. Also, one of the best all-time interns and actually had Nastasia's job for a while. What a great job it was, right? Well, not so great. You don't have it anymore, not because I wanted you to leave. You're like, I am done with this Dave Arnold dude. I'm Indy. We discussed this on air. I am the New Haven of bosses. New Haven. I'm New Haven. Yeah, so New Haven is a town where everybody who's in New Haven wants to get
+
+[18:52] out. But as soon as you leave New Haven, you're like New Haven, not so bad. It wasn't so bad. No, now that I have kids, I see how reasonable you are in comparison.
+
+[19:01] Nice. Nice. Nice. So what's up? You just calling to, calling to chat, or you got a question for us, Mindy. No, just calling to say hi because I really, there were some great, great sound bites. You know, like, I love coconuts, and, you know, it's not as good one as hard. I didn't even hear that. See, you have a good ear for these kinds of things. It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I had a suggestion. I mean, I can't exercise it, but instead of the crazy diet. Like, I don't know, moderation, but I know that's like crazy, crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I believe in moderation for other people. I believe it's really good advice. It's just... It exists. And actually, that's the only sound advice, really, but, you know, it
+
+[19:48] doesn't seem to work for me. Yeah, I can't do that. I've heard it. I tried. Like, I'm more of like a, when I binge on stuff, it's like pure love. Remember when I used to come back and drink 2 quarts of blueberries, not blended, not smoothie. You drank them. No, no, cork container. Qu container. of blueberries. The fruit. They just fell into your mouth. I'm like, oh, you were like a boa constrictor. You just like unhinged your jaws and you just sent them straight down without chewing. It was a little, it was a little horrifying to watch. I couldn't eat blueberries for like a year, but that's, no, but good. Hey, going back to our other question, I once ate a gallon of raspberries, not juice, the fruit. It's a lot of raspberries. Well, this is how you develop allergies, Dave. What about the cherries? You ate like, I did it next. Yeah, that's true. The raspberries, though, I did it for a reason that I know Mindy will respect is that I'm cheap. I'm cheap, and I didn't, it was a pick your own, and I didn't realize how much it was going to cost. I didn't realize how much it was going to cost. What? Yeah, partially. I don't know. Asian? That's the Scottish part of me, I think. I love it. Anyway, so I ate a whole... I realized where other people were paying in front of me. I went back into the, I went back into the, uh, pick your own area and feedbagged gallon of this stuff. They had a sin bin. I dropped like, you know, like a couple of dollars into this, really a couple of pennies, into the sin bin, and then paid for like our couple of quarts that were left. What would Mindy, what would be her ice cream sandwich? Yeah, Mindy, what could you eat the most of of all times? What, what was, like, what have I? Oh, do you remember I ate those mangoes and I developed like a minor allergy when
+
+[21:25] I like mangoes went toxic? Yeah. Because of those, I love those. I love those champagne mangoes and I ate something like 12 of them and then someone gave me that crazy Alfonso mango and I broke out into like giant hives. My memory was your face inflated like a balloon. No, that's just my face, Dave. Wow. Wow. So I got face like proof and brioche. You know this. That's kind of good if you can get it to like do that and then push on to see whether it's done. I'm so tender. Tap on it. Yeah, see if she. How do you do it? How do you do your gluten-free brioche? How do you do that, Angela? I would never. Some things are not, some things, it just doesn't. So where's the line? Like, where's the line? Yeasted stuff for me. So you don't you don't do any of these gluten-free yeasted... Nope. Now. So you're like cookies. Cakes. Cakes. Cakes. Cakes. Cakes. All right, let's Mindy, why don't you stay off? hit some questions here. Because there's some opinion-based questions. Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United
+
+[22:37] States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information and digital coupons, or visit Whole Foods Market.com to find a store closest to you. Kieran writes in. Sorry if you covered this topic. I'm still about 100 episodes behind, but catching up fast. Savory cocktails came up in a recent conversation. I had a two-part question, 2 parts. Ready, guys? Two parts. I was wondering if you had any recommendations for savory cocktails that wouldn't be unreasonable to order at a bar. Any, by the way, I assume this means like a normal savory cocktail that you could order at a bar as opposed to, as opposed
+
+[23:12] to, like, you know, like the Bennett's, like uh, Nick Bennett's, uh, mushroom, like champion Justino, which is like, you know, you can't walk into a regular bar and
+
+[23:22] order that, right? So I presumably mean regular bar situation. And any recommendations that aren't explicitly meat-based, like a bull shot. That would be an unreasonable thing to order at most bars, by the way, uh, would be great. I'm not vegetarian, but people seem understandably hesitant about meat-based drinks aside from the occasional shot of Worcestershire sauce, which by the
+
+[23:42] way, most people use fake Worcestershire sauce now that doesn't contain anchovies. Did you know that? Yeah, most people, like, a lot of people, unless they're using Lee and Perrins, which is the real stuff, like, a lot of people, if they buy their Worcestershire to
+
+[23:52] place like Whole Foods, they have anchovy free, which, to me, it's not really Worcestershire stuff. What's the point? It's not Worcester sauce. I mean, the only thing I can think of. no, there's no I mean, the best savory drink to order at a bar is bourbon meat. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Or something like that or scotch. Or like a Mezcal Negroni or something. Scotch, got sugar in it. It's not savory. That's true. It can be, yeah. I mean, they're like, to me, savory foods can have sugar,
+
+[24:21] right? obviously. Duh. Right? But if on a cocktail, if you're going to say it's savory, to me, the overwhelming palette on it has to be things
+
+[24:32] that are not on the sweet side, right? I mean, so... It sounds like a Mezcal Negroni's all smoke, you know? Yeah, but smoke and sweet, I'll like, like is, is, you know, are all those bacon candies, not that I'm a big thing, but like, those are, you
+
+[24:47] know. You're still going to get like the sugar feel in your mouth. Yeah, true. So you need a sugar feel. Right. the worst. I mean, the only thing you could order is a Bloody Mary. Yeah. But that's really a morning drink. So, you know, I mean, you can't you can't reasonably walk into a bar and order a Bloody Mary in the nighttime. Right? People do it. Do reasonable? No. They do that? It's not reasonable. That's why that's why we did the clarified one that you could drink at night. You don't want I don't want soup at the bar unless it's soup. I like soup. Then it's gazpacho. But I mean, yes, but I mean, in other words, like, that's right. But I mean, in other words, like, I like eating a soup. Yeah. I like soup. I made some soup the other day. Delicious soups. Yeah, so I don't think Mindy, can you think of any? you still there? Yeah, no, I said, Scotch and salted peanuts, but I've ordered, I've ordered Bloody Mary's
+
+[25:40] anytime of the day. Really? Had you just woken up from a nap? No, it's like, I mean, you know, some people will be like, if you go to like a crappy bar and you're like, I want a dirty bloody Mary. Or how about that? How about like a dirty martini? That's very savory. All right. give you that. Mindy makes a good bloody Mary. I'll give you that I give you the dirty bloody Mary. It only is like 112 ingredients. Bloody Mary's, but a lot of ingredients. It's good. really good. All right. And then the 2nd part of the question is, can you think of a reason why savory drinks haven't become more
+
+[26:11] common, or have I just not looked hard enough? I'm not much of a barfly, but renewed interest in mixed drinks and gastro pub seems like the perfect environment for something less sweet on the drinks list. I'll also be sending this question to Kenji Lopez Alt, since it's vegan month. It seems like it's an interesting thing. I don't know what Kenji came up with, but I just don't think it's the thing that people, I've made savory cocktails before. And usually my response is, that was really good sip of drink. And then and then you don't want to think about it this way. Your average cocktail is, oh, somewhere
+
+[26:45] between once it's all made, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 ounces, 5 at our bar,
+
+[26:50] five, 6 ounces. You know what I'm saying? So, think about that. That's 5 or 6 ounces is like, you know, a 3rd of a
+
+[26:59] pound of stuff. You know what I mean? And so you're pounding that much of savory. I don't know. A lot of savory. It's a lot of savory to have, you know, I don't know, it's just, I don't know, I don't have a good answer for this. I feel bad, but I just can't think of a, I can't, I would never order that stuff myself. I like dry, but like I say, I don't consider bourbon or scotch. What about a Michelata? Okay. Yeah. That's true. You know what? I told you the grossest thing I ever, the grossest things I've ever made are savory, drink wise. The grossest, most disgusting drinks I've ever made savory, I mean, drink wise, are savory drinks. What was the worst? Oh, without a doubt, the recarbonated centrifuge burrito in beer. Yeah, it sounds terrible. Oh, man. This freaking nightmare. Sounds like a lot of work to put a burrito. It was the worst. Mini, were you there for that shoot? I just don't even understand why. That was the worst. Nastasia, were you there for that shoot? It was me. That's the worst. It's right around that switchover time. worst, worst. No, it was 2 years into us. Really? Then we have, I made, I've made some good, very good, but they're beef broth based where you kill the gelatin and beef broth. You nuke out the gelatin and it's thin and, but they're short shots situations. Also, I think you don't want a lot of your savory drinks are better a little bit on the warmer side, which also takes it against what people. don't know. You made beef shots? Oh yeah. So much better than a bull shot. We had this old enzyme called correlates and correlates literally ate the gelatin out of stock.
+
+[28:36] So you wouldn't have to, there's 2 ways to do it. You can do gel clarification by taking a stock that has a certain amount of gel in it. You know, you have to do a fairly light stock just set, right? Freeze it thought, stuff drips out is clear. Now you can reduce that down without the gelatin resetting because there's no more gelatin in it. You leaves the gelatin out. So you can make these very, very, very concentrated, very savory. I think we did like beef and clarified tomato, which is good. You know what I mean? That sounds good. It was good. I would do that. Yeah, a shot. You don't want a glass in it. Your beef, though. Was it Nebraska beef? Well, of course, the possibilities for Nebraska beef are. Endless. No, they changed that. Ask Angela. They changed it. Dude, we went through it at the beginning. the worst. the worst. missed it. It's the worst. Nobody wants nice. How is the beef in Nebraska? Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. Anyway. Uh, and uh, the other way to do that, of course, the other way to do it is to use the enzyme, the enzyme is awesome. I wish I could get correlates. I've never had a good result with, um, I never had a good result using meat tenderizers to wipe out the gelatin, regular meat tenderizers to wipe out the gelatin.
+
+[29:45] A, they seem to add a little bitterness when you wipe out the stuff and B, for some reason,
+
+[29:50] uh, when you try to do agar clarification off of uh, something that you've hit with uh, that has the broken up gelatin from this stuff. You get this grainy, nasty texture. We were never able to do anything. We're never able to do anything good with it. But yeah, that correlates was so awesome. I could still picture the mounds of already reduced, like, glass, just melting under that correlation enzyme. But for some reason it never got, um, popular. No one ever picked it up. No one ever. And that correlate enzyme was specifically built to break the gelatin down into non-bitter
+
+[30:23] units. So a lot of times when you break down proteins into like very small polypeptide chains, you'll get a lot of like bitter notes. That's why like a lot of hydrolyzed protein, if it's not like good quality stuff can have a little bit of bitterness to it. But this correlate stuff, dead neutral, the polypeptides that came out of it were like freaking, not like not ruining Christmas, which was nice about them. What was it? The bitterness came from like free amino acid when it broke down. Yeah, certain shortchange polypeptides are just bitter. They have different flavors. There's, you know, they just have, in general, a lack of bueno. You know what I mean? Yeah, lack of bueno. Lack of bueno. Lack of bueno. So do we even have time for a break or we're not going to take a break today, Jack? I'm gonna insert it after. Are you going to insert it after? All right. We'll fix it in post. Fix it in post. By the way, speaking of post, I have a, I had a question. Oh, I'm working on a new cocktail that the bartenders are not going to
+
+[31:16] like and because it's too simple, but I'm testing this, our centrifuge prototype styles, which apparently I'm told by our lawyers that
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+[31:23] until the prototype on the rotor is finalized. We can't publish any photos of it or not. right. All right. But, um, check this out. Clarified orange juice, right? So, which, as we know, clarified orange juice by itself, tastes like Sunny D. It not the best, right? Clarified strawberry juice, right? And then I did, I did some rough calculations on it. And I'll give you those calculations now. So OJ is roughly 11 to 12 bricks, right? So 11 to 12% sugar by weight. Strawberries about 8 commercial Driscoll's about 8% by weight, typradable acidity, is like 0.75 in strawberry and
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+[32:04] .8 in OJ. So they're fairly similar, right? So I did uh, 400 grams of Clariet strawberry, uh, OJ. I added 16 grams of citric and 20 of Malik to jack the lime up to sour mix base because sour mix would be
+
+[32:21] 50-50, right? Simple syrup and what's it called? And what's it called? And 300 grams of sugar. It might have been 600 grams of OJ. I got to look at it. Anyway, 600 grams of OJ juice. And then put that all together. And then that's delicious. That's what we have right there. That is strawberry orange cordial. unheated. That stirred into tequila is freaking delicious. looks beautiful. It does, it looks more orange when you start it down. Stasi would like it. looks like an orange wine when it's stirred down. But I need a name for it, though. What do you think? It's not really, it's not a margarita. It's stirred. My bartenders aren't going to like it anyway because it tastes really simple. It's like super simple. I like it like that. You know what else I developed with the in the center few styles that you might enjoy? Actually, you wouldn't enjoy it. You don't like gin. Angel, you like gin, right? Definitely. Yeah. Blueberries, back to blueberries. Clarif, I did a blueberry hostino, which ordinarily is not very stable because the blueberries add a lot of liquid, did the calculations on
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+[33:18] it and then just carbonated it. So it's like blueberries, tiny bit of sugar, tiny bit of acid, actually just in the water because the blueberries are about the right acidity and sugar range for the gin, but I just needed to up it a little
+
+[33:31] bit. And it's just like dark purple gin blueberry carbonated thing. Sounds amazing. Good. My bartenders will never go for it. They would hate it. Whatever. Anyway, if anyone in the chat room can come up with a name for that drink, that would be pleasant for me. And we got this in from, uh, Ken, remember Ken Ken? Yep. Yeah. So he came in with, I will read his comment because I didn't get to it. last time. Um, This is back when we were talking about sandwiches with Peter Kim. As you know, I also have deep platonic inspired ideas about the sandwich, but
+
+[34:06] there's a much overlooked aspect of the sandwich, namely, its delivery. This is from Ken. When I become a maximum ruler of the universe, This will change. this will change among many implemented in sandwiches. At random times, sandwich inspectors will require lunchtime counter prep workers who make and wrap sandwiches to reverse roles, and while wearing their favorite
+
+[34:27] pants, and the shirt that their mother gave them, eat the aforementioned made in wrap sandwiches at their desk, experiencing the implausibly inexpensive aluminum
+
+[34:35] foil permanently affixed to melted cheese, and the mustard coated sprouts that cascade onto your lap, and the excess tomato sauce, whose sole purpose is extrusion.
+
+[34:43] You should not be having sprouts on your sandwich. That should be, I get what you, the mustard can, but you should not have any sprouts on your freaking sandwich. Do your freaking customers order sprouts? Angela? Do you have sprouts in your place? No. Okay. No sandwiches. Secondly, I thought the group was unnecessarily negative on bad houseguests. Maybe, well, okay. Nastasia is not unduly negative on her bad house guest. She needs to like, Nastasia. I like her friends, right? I like them only because they were her friends and not my friends. But, you know, Nastasia is the kind of person where, like, on a regular basis, people will rent out their
+
+[35:17] apartments to, like, use as Airbnbs, and then they will sleep on her couch and not kick her any of the Airbnb money.
+
+[35:25] That's like Stas's life. Plus, plus, plus, plus, they'll bring her a bottle of yellowtail and they'll drink her good stuff. That's the kind of that's the kind of that's what Nastasia deals with on a regular basis. Am I wrong about that? Mindy, were you trying to say something? Oh, Mindyism. What do you got, Mindy? At that? Sorry. I'm like, why? She's she's
+
+[35:49] she's she's dealing with the home front. I'll finish Ken's thing. Secondly, I thought that the group was unnecessarily negative on bad houseguests. Some years ago, a large contingent in my family came to Boston to see my children perform in the national tour of a
+
+[36:01] well-known musical. My wife and I prepared and served a very nice meal at our home to all of them, and she and I were standing next to each other at the sink washing the dishes that we had cleared. I said to her, well, this proves beyond a doubt that I come from royalty. She asked, how so? I replied, 15 people sitting around that table and not one person lifted a finger to help. Wow, rough. That's rough. After I cook, though, I don't want to clean. Do you want to clean? He cooked and cleaned, which is the worst. usually do that. I can't do it. I have to throw everything in the sink and then wait for the next day. I can't do it. I try to clean while I'm finishing up. Yeah, I try to clean while I can. while you're finishing, then you eat dinner and then you just have like everything from dinner left over. Yeah, that's the best way to do I'm a firm believer also in front of the house, back of the house. So it's like classic like roles, like one person, if you're a couple, like one person has to do all the front of the house
+
+[36:50] stuff and one person does all the back of the house stuff, like get the plates ready. I hate, hate when the plates aren't ready, when the food is, I hate it. Do you hate that? I don't know. Do you do front of house or back of house? Did your husband cook? We definitely collaborate. Yeah. can collaborate in the kitchen? Not at the bakery, but at home. We can. Really? So you're just a better person, I am. You a nicer person. Done with me, dude. Yeah, no. Split it. All right, so here's what I have to do before the next cooking issues. I have a shoot. I can't talk about the shoot, obviously, because it hasn't happened yet. I get in trouble. But over the weekend, I have to build a chicken gun. A chicken gun. A gun that can fire... Chickens. Dead chickens. Chickens come out of the gun? Chickens come out of the gun. Why do you want to do that? Dad, I can't, I can't talk about too much, but my, the Mythbusters did one, did one once, but they didn't, they, okay, so back in the day, okay, when they were used to test windshields for airplanes and
+
+[37:48] other things, they would literally fire. It's a huge problem. They would fire birds at windshields and through engines and at fuselage parts and stuff like that. And so the Air Force, I think it was the Air Force, actually built a, you know, a compressed air cannon that could fire, uh, birds into
+
+[38:06] these into these things, right? And the chicken cannons, chicken guns. And so Mythbusters did a bunch of stuff on it, but they didn't do the key thing. My grandpa who was a radar tech, a radar designer. He designed like airplane radar for Westinghouse. Um, he said that when he saw them run it, the janitor used to come and pick up the birds and take them home and cook them. So
+
+[38:31] that that is what I'm interested in. Interesting. Like, like, what's, like, after you take a bird, full bone in bird, regular bird, and like hurl it at a couple
+
+[38:40] of, a couple 100 miles an hour at, like, a windshield. Like, what can you do with it from a culinary standpoint? What do you think? I mean, do you think it's basically pate? Is it gonna have some sort of like, I mean, is it gonna have any structure left at all? Is it going to be useful? I bet you're the only one who's ever thought about this I mean, I know my grandpa has. You know? Wait, are you gonna shoot a live, not a live chicken? Not a chicken with feathers. I would shoot a chicken with the feathers on. That would be more realistic. However, they're also more expensive and harder to source. Okay. So like, you're gonna shoot a, like a Purdue? I don't know that I'm going to use that brand, but yes, that style. Yeah, but like a roaster? Not a roaster. I don't think I can build a gun big enough to do a roaster. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna do like a three. How big's a roaster? I going to do like a 3.75 pound chicken. Okay. That's small. Has to fit into a 6 inch gun. Six inch gun. Wow. 6 inch diameter. 6 inch diameter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I need to get it up to a couple 100 miles an hour. Like the small dark canyon one? No, I'm not going to do a... have a piece of Lexan already. No, they're like a medium, you know, like a small chicken. I forget what those ranges are called. you know, like a crap, like the ones we used to break apart at the French culinary. You want to know the really? You want to know the really funny part? I'm not going to tell them I'm going to shoot it inside at the French culinary because that's where the shoot is. Get a heritage. Get a heritage bird. I'm not going to fire a heritage bird at the... Hey, Patrick, can I have one of your like really nice heritage birds? I'm going to fire it at a 38 inch thick piece of Lexand. And then we're gonna... It's free advertising. I'm definitely going to eat it. And kudos to that janitor who did not waste all of those. Those birds did not smash into the windshield in vain for nothing. We got to wrap up, Dave. World War II, you were saying? After World War II. My grandpa actually was on the team that designed the radar at Pearl Harbor, the one that was ignored. No, he became, I think, the head of that department after the war and all the way up through
+
+[40:52] and beyond Vietnam. Like he did the radar in the F4 Phantom. And, yeah, he's, you know, he's a big radar guy, Westinghouse. That was his daily. And my grandpa, and my dad also worked for Westinghouse when he was young before he, you know, went out on his own, you know, as like summer jobs. So both of them have radar freaking skills. And, you know, my grandpa's still alive. He's like 96 or 7 or something like that. 97 this year. And, uh, they will not help me build my room sized microwave oven with an old, uh,
+
+[41:23] magnetron from a radar. You guys know that story, right? They are so unreasonable. my god. Right? Right? I mean, that they are just so unreal. Must be old age. Yes, age. And so I will leave you guys with that. Thanks everyone for coming. Lifetime disappointment, cooking issues.
+
+[41:49] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[41:57] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[42:16] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Open Table is a proud sponsor of Heritage radio network. For more information, visit their blog, open for business at open forbusiness.opentable.com. Hi, this is Cecilia Kutcher, host of Animal Instinct, and you are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Intries. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, Broadcasting Ware Stats. Where? Brooklyn. Where? Roberta is. Oh, yeah. See sauce, this is why I don't let you do the beginning section. You know, it's like, it's like, You always say live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. like that. That's how you gotta do it. Right? Call your questions two, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Join, as usual, with Nastasia. The Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah? Yeah. you think anything good happen? No. Nothing good. For real? Nothing good. anything bad? Anything terrible? No? Just the same old, same old. Same old, same old? How about you? Me? Oh, I got a lot of new stuff, but I can't talk about most of it. Are we joined as usual in the booth with Jack Jackie molecules Insley or is he still outside coming in in a minute? Jackie Molecules is having a field trip right now. Oh my goodness. I've seen it. We might we might be blessed with a little bit of a little bit of Jackie molecules in
+
+[1:37] there. It's going to get back. Yeah, because otherwise it's going to get confusing because it's going to be Dave, David, confusing stuff in the booth. Anyway. My point being... Oh, yes, remember last week I said that I was going to build a chicken cannon?
+
+[1:54] again, I can't talk about the specifics yet. But let me just say, It is not that complicated to launch a chicken at over 200 mile an hour. However, I will say this. Quarter inch thick, like polycarbonate, Lexand polycarbonate, is not up to the task of stopping said chicken.
+
+[2:15] Oh my god, stars. We built this frame. Oh, you saw? Who sent it to you? I get your email. Oh, you didn't see the good one. Anyway, so it's like, oh my god, the frame basically just evaporated. I tried to pick up all the chicken off the ground, but I had forgotten to put a big enough tarp underneath the area. And
+
+[2:38] like when I took it back inside, all the pieces and tried to wash the gravel and like, you know, oak leaves and stuff off of
+
+[2:45] it. It was just like, everyone was like, I'm not going to eat. What are you doing? I'm not going to eat that. I won't eat that. That's the whole point of shooting the chicken stars is to eat the meat afterwards, like that janitor did. Why are you shooting it, though? Well, I told you, like ever since I was a kid, my grandpa would tell me about when he used to go to the testing facilities because he was doing radar work, right, for airplanes, how he would see them shoot the chickens into
+
+[3:10] windshields, or, you know, and birds into windshields to test the windshields. This was in the 50s, I guess. Um, and he said that the janitor would pick them up and take them home and eat them. And I was like, oh man. Oh man. You know, and then, like, I've always been kind of fascinated with this guy picking up these chickens and eating them
+
+[3:29] afterwards. And so I wanted to kind of see what the meat would taste like. But I have yet to I have yet to taste meat fired from the chicken cannon. But not that hard, frankly. I'll tell you this. If you are going to build one of your own, which I do not recommend for obvious reasons, because if you hurt yourself, you're going to say that I told you to do it, right? So I'm not going to, amazon.com. has some fantastic deals on large, on large cast iron butterfly valves. I'm talking like $600 valves on sale for like
+
+[4:00] $120, like prime delivery. I don't know what I think someone made a mistake. It's like some idiot at a company was like, just like, was like, yeah, $500 for that, and they put in like $150. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like they're charging for an 8 inch valve. They're charging what you should charge for like a 4 inch file. crazy. So anyone who wants to build a crazy chicken cannon. Go look up cast-iron butterfly vowels in the 8 inch variety on Amazon. There's only a couple left when I bought them. So you know, your chance might be limited. Anyways, uh, did I cook anything good? Did I cook anything good? I don't think I cooked anything good. I think I just, I wanted to cook that chicken and then failed miserably. I cooked some really good stuff yesterday, but again, I cannot talk about it until
+
+[4:46] May, because we shot a little thing in the jig for the Playboy. network. You want to know something else interesting? Maybe interesting. Somebody bought Playboytv.com, and that is not affiliated with the Playboy network, and they haven't gotten the news yet that Playboy is now safe for work.
+
+[5:07] so if you were to go to playboytv.com, Apparently, not at all safe for your workplace. Anyways. Dave, what's going on, man? Let's walk in and it's Playboy? Well, I was saying that I shot something along with, I'm not allowed to give the particulars yesterday for Playboy, and they're going to release it sometime on the internet. Yeah, so more, we'll talk more about that in, you know, in the middle of next month. But it was a lot of fun. Uh, shot back at my, uh, where I used to teach there at the French culinary, the International Culinary Center. Nice. Sorry I'm late. How you doing, Jack? I'm good. How you doing? All right, did you have anything interesting happening over the past week to you? Um, I want to say yes, but I no, not really. I was at a wedding this weekend. Oh yeah? How bad was the food? How bad was the food? It was great, actually. It was pies and thighs. Oh okay. Pies and thighs. It was good stuff. Nice. I heard that it was an old. Remember pies and thighs like went through a reincarnation? Yep. And one of the old cooks back in the 1st carnation came and worked here for a while. Carolyn Bane, yeah. Yeah, and brought the fried chicken recipe. And their fried chicken recipe. I've mentioned this before on the show, but, you know, it's been a long time. This goes completely against everything that I've ever known about fried chicken.
+
+[6:18] I have yet to do the side by side, but they take directly from brine into flower and fry. Probably a self-rising flowers. But right in the, it's delicious, I have to say. Please tell me you like fried chicken, right? Okay. Well, what style of fries? Just no biscuits. I said, but, you know, I have to ask because it's like so many preposterous things. You, you know, come out of her mouth. The fear in your voice was real. Yeah, real, real. Because, you know, because how horrifying would it be that I sit next to this person all the time and she doesn't like fried chicken? That would be like, that would be, I don't know. Like, it's worse than biscuits. wouldn't you agree that not liking fried chicken is worse than not liking biscuits? Listen, I like biscuits a lot, so, but yes, I'll agree with you. Fried chicken would be worse. I still don't get the biscuit thing, though. I feel like maybe Stas, you haven't had a great biscuit. No, I bet you she has. you know, this is where Jack, you've known Nastasia long enough. Yeah, that's true. If she decides she's not going to like freaking biscuits. Like, like, God could come hand her a biscuit and she'd be like, this sucks. But I don't believe in him, so doesn't, you don't believe
+
+[7:21] in him. he's got a, you know, he's got a gender all of a sudden now. But, like, my point is, like, no matter like what, like, literally, I could genetically, I could put electrodes in Nastasia's brain that literally made her think that when she was eating a
+
+[7:34] biscuit. It tasted exactly like the finest caviar on earth, which is one of her favorite foods and she'd be like, nah, because it's a biscuit. You know what I'm saying? That's like stars for you. Just decided she's going to hate on the biscuit. And that's it. It's over. You know what I mean? She's the same way with people. True or false does. Yeah. she's like, yeah, you'll get it later. Be like, I'm going to let you say this on here now, and then I'm going to get you later. Uh, I got this in from uh, Jeffrey Given and Costa Mesa. Where's custom Mesa against us? Don't know. It's in California. Don't you know the whole damn state? No. Yeah, man, I come from a long state. We didn't have a lot of PlayStation. Hello, Stas, and the Fun Bunch. I like that you did not put Nastasia into the fun bunch. I don't Also, people are not allowed to call me stars, so it's nostasia. Wow, that's about it, right? For a stranger. It just Nastasia. Yeah. Yeah, she gets particular about this kind of stuff. Me, you know, call me jerk wad, whatever you want. They would never do that to you. Oh, me, me, me, me, me. Okay. Hello, Anastasia and the Fun Bunch. This is a word shout out to Culture City. It's been encouraging you to learn about Culture City by way of heritage radio support. I wholeheartedly agree with Dave that it's equally important, if not more so, than researching a cure for autism is the broadening of acceptance and understanding of without limiting expectations of potential ability for individuals on the spectrum.
+
+[8:58] I don't yet have any children of my own. Just wait. I don't have any children of my own. My wife's an elementary school teacher who specializes in gives it intalent and education. These are students who think and learn differently and benefit from multiple and
+
+[9:10] specific teaching methods while they tend to be highly creative and bright. They also often lack some of the social cognizance their peers might already possess. Ain't that the truth? You know what I'm saying? Um, uh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, my phone went really tiny guys. And my old eyeballs can't adjust. Anyway, um, sorry. sorry sorry. I get the opportunity to be in these classrooms regularly, and one of the most rewarding things to witness is the way my wife has helped to provide them with the space resources and confidence to thrive as individuals while learning to accept each other's quirks and behavioral
+
+[9:46] idiosync idiosyncrasies. Idios. What's wrong with me today? I can't read, you know, it's because of my freaking bike ride. I'm more of that later. I'm still angry about my bike ride. Uh, idiosyncrasies in a loving and supportive way. So before I get to the question that they ask, that's a nice shutout, right? We're still working with the culture city people. Yeah, they're the best people. Like really some of the best people I've ever met. I actually went to their I spent some time on their on their website. Like, they're totally worthy of support. What do we do with them? Do they just like support us or do we do stuff for them? What? Um, both. I mean, they definitely supported us. Basically, the story with Culture City is Julian got in touch with us through a charity auction where he got to come here and meet Tom Kalikio and interview Tom Kalikio in the studio. That was the auction. It's like, come meet and interview Tom Clickio. And he asked him all about some of these autism initiatives, like putting iPads and restaurants and stuff. It was like a way for him to kind of get Culture City out there and start getting it in people's ears. So we did we did some work with them. We produced a whole radio documentary about what they do, and then we went down to Birmingham at their annual gala. And then I actually DJed their junior gala, which was a lot of
+
+[10:51] fun. It was a Halloween party. Yeah. It's culture city with a K, by the way. It's with a K, yeah. Why? YK? That's a great question. I couldn't tell you. I have to say, like, I hope I'm not offending anyone out there, but I really don't like spelling C words with
+
+[11:05] K's. Cars for kids. Uh, you know, I found out about that. You know that, well, anyway, I don't want, I'm not going to blow it. But anyway, like, but like, I don't know, specifically, I don't like country kitchen with 2K's. Whenever I see country kitchen with 2 K's. It makes me feel that you're one K short of being KKK. And I just don't like it. You know what I mean? I just get, like, 1st of all, I mean, I hate to, you know, I'm not, I want to, like, dive into stereotyping, but when
+
+[11:30] you're seriously, when you go country kitchen 2K's, you're one step away, people, don't do it. But we'll accept Culture City. We'll accept culture city because the 2nd the 2nd seat is the C. They didn't go two-thirds of the way to KKK. And so, you know, it's still kind of acceptable. What do you think about the country kitchens does? Hate it, right? I also don't like, I don't like extra peas and Es on my Shoppies and my, I don't like any of that stuff. Do you like any of that stuff? I'm not into that, no. none of that stuff. Oh, the shop. I see you're saying. Just the E at the end of shop. kind of cool. That's like old timey. Really? Shopping? Depends on where we are, right? If someone open a Shopee over here, I'd be like, get out of here. Yeah. Oh my god. If Nastasia, I'm just going to guess, what would you do if you walked past the Shopee here, would you spin on? I don't know what a shop is. Like, Yodi Shoppy. like, like, would you like, be like, like in Brooklyn? I met a guy. can't talk about my May yesterday. Anyways. Okay, should I mention so I can get it out of my system real quick, the bike ride? Another freaking jerk on the freaking Williamsburg bridge going downhill, no hands on his freaking handlebars, earphones in, weaving back and forth. I didn't want to pass the guy. listen, you're not cool. Put your hands on the handlebars. What if someone like me isn't as cautious? And if you think I'm cautious, me? Come on. Like, someone who's like less cautious than me goes to pass you, you swerve and clip that freaking guy because you're texting your idiot buddy and you all go flying down that bridge at like 25 mile an hour onto pavement, skinning yourself like a freaking grape because you know that stupid bastard wasn't wearing a
+
+[13:02] helmet. You know what I'm saying? Dumb. Dumb. And then you used to ride here, right, back before you hated riding in Brooklyn so much. Speaking of Nastasia now, you know when you're driving up grand on the way here, and there's that long line of parked cars, and then there's all that traffic next to you, so you're in like this tube, this corridor.
+
+[13:20] Guy jumps out, walks out into it, like right out freaking into it, not looking. I'm doing like 18, you know, 19 mile an hour below the speed limit, but like, you know, and like, I'm like, like that to him, you know what I mean? And like, he yells at me. He's like, use your, it breaks. And I'm like, you're in a bike lane. You know what I mean? I was like, what the hell people? I would have felt bad if I had wiped that guy out a little bit, but I'm more angry at him. It's one of those things. And then, you know what? The concrete plant today that you have to drive past. People. New York is not pleasant. I love it here. I love it. I love it, but is there anything pleasant about New York City? No. Jack, what do you think? Anything? I mean, I love it. I love it. deeply. The views. The views. I got a caller on the line. that's what I think All right. But you're not gonna, you're not gonna, you're not gonna make a statement. I missed you. had to pick up the phone. I says, is there anything like, like literally the word pleasant. Is there anything pleasant about New York City in general? About New York City? Yeah. No. To live here, you have to like constant beat downs. I wouldn't say there's anything pleasant. I think if you were like mega rich. Maybe you could just squash all the people in front of you and then maybe have some sort of pleasant experience. Yeah,
+
+[14:31] it would be pleasant if I had more money. that's true I don't know. I don't know. Call her, you're on the air. Hi, I have a question regarding baby food. Ah, okay. So we just had a baby. He's about 3 months old now and he'll be starting solid food in a couple months. to make all the food and freeze it myself. So I promise it's only one question, but I want to make sure this food tastes good and it's safe, but I don't want it to taste like canned baby
+
+[14:59] food, but I want to do something a little bit more creative. Well, good news is, I mean, again, remember, not
+
+[15:08] a, not a professional look into it. The good news, obviously, and since you're, you know, having a newborn relatively,
+
+[15:17] you know, you probably looked at all the current research, which means that unlike when I was having children, they basically say that you can, in fact, encourage you to give kids a wide variety of
+
+[15:27] things early on, thank goodness. You know what I mean? So you're extremely lucky in that regard. A couple of main concerns that you're going to have. Uh, and I don't know if they still say this, is you're gonna have to watch out for, um, certain foods that, um, are potentially toxic to infants, right? So you're not going to sweeten with honey, right? If you were going to sweeten something. And also, and this is, again, I haven't done the research in a number of years, but you're gonna, you'd be wary of serving large amounts of certain leafy greens like, um, spinach because of
+
+[16:06] potentially, uh, I believe it's potentially high, um, uh, nitrogen nitrate levels, but I don't know if they still have
+
+[16:12] that. I don't know if that's still a recommendation, but they used to, basically things like that, like Gerber's
+
+[16:18] pitch and maybe Gerber was paying people to do this, was saying that they very tightly monitor the, like the levels of these things in their products. And so they can, they can adjust. Whereas like the ratios of those things can be very, very variant in a naturally produced item because the plants take up a lot of that stuff from the
+
+[16:38] soil. So a lot depends on fertilizer laid down and, you know, how much rainfall they had prior to
+
+[16:43] harvest and et cetera, et cetera. So, like, those are the only 2 caveats. Now, on that, obviously, you're not going to want to feed anything that's going to cause any sort of food poisoning, but you're not going to have to cook things to the same kind of level that you would have in a canned environment where, for instance, like a lot
+
+[17:00] of, um, a lot a lot of vegetables can take on that canned kind of vegetable taste, right? Now, presumably, if you're going to do this, you're going to make the investment. Do you already own a Vita Prep? You said a Vita prep? Yeah. Do you, what is, do you mean like a vitamix? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, vitamix is, sorry, the commercial version of the Vitamix is a Vitaprep. It's the same thing. Yeah, you own one of those? Yeah, we have like a professional Vitamix at home, but we don't have the commercial version, obviously. Oh, they're the same motor. The only difference is, is they expect people in a commercial kitchen to beat it to death. And so they put a different label on it and they give you a different warranty, but it's it's literally the same people. It's not, it's one of the rare instances where the commercial version isn't any beefier than the home
+
+[17:50] version. It just costs more because they know they're going to have to, like, uh, uh, you know, have a lot of warranty issues on it. Whereas like, you know, 99% of people at home aren't going to abuse their blenders the same way that a commercial kitchen will.
+
+[18:03] So yeah, you're in good shape. So if you have that, you know, with those 2 caveats, I'd say go for it. You know, I don't know, like, are you guys vegetarian, you eat meat or what? Hello? Did we lose them? Yeah, we have a little bit of a bad connection. It's muffled. apologize. I say, do you guys eat meat? Because one of the great things about a Vita prep is you can blend meat like, like, like nobody's business. I would use meat. I don't know if you eat meat, but like you can do anything like that. I don't know whether people are like going to get mad at me for recommending feeding meat to a kid, but I did. I'd feed the kids everything, you know, it's just you want to be aware of choking and I would say look into those things that I mentioned, like certain leafy things. I think spinach was the one that they really talked about. I bet your celery is the same, but who's going to feed their kid pureed celery? That sounds kind of gross, right? Well, and I want him to learn at a young age what good food tastes like. So is there anything, like one idea I had was like in from modernist cuisine where you caramelize the
+
+[19:02] carrots and do something like that so that you make the food taste a little bit better. Do you have any other recommendations like that? Yeah, you know, you look, you could take stuff that you're making for yourself. Just like, you don't even, like, if you're roasting carrots, which are delicious. Just roast extra and then just use a little stock or something to be able to blend it into the right
+
+[19:20] texture and it's going to be a lot more delicious. Do you know what I'm saying? Obviously, I would adjust the texture. I would buy a couple of cans of the, of the, of the jars, rather, of the Gerber
+
+[19:31] stuff just to check the consistency on it to see whether you're in the, in the kind of realm of
+
+[19:36] consistency because if you go, obviously, if you go too gluey, you just want to be, you know, careful that they're not going to choke
+
+[19:41] or, or ask great or anything like that. Of course. But yeah. So, like, I mean, I would say almost any, like, the great thing about the Vita Prep is you could take almost anything that you
+
+[19:50] like and then turn it into the texture of a baby food. Most people who are making it are mainly worried about kind of trying to go like hyper healthy on a baby, which to me, it's like, you know, I don't know, like,
+
+[20:05] don't please don't get me started on that, but it's like, you know,
+
+[20:10] like, I wish to God that I could go back and have ignored my doctor's recommendations about what not to feed my children early on.
+
+[20:17] But like I said, as a parent, you just can't do that. Uh, you can't ignore what the doctor says because then if you're wrong, you know, you're you're a big jerk. You know, you've ruined your kids, you know? Uh, but, you know, you know, you live in a in a permissive time. So it's, uh, you know, you're you're very lucky. One thing I will say is that, um, and, you know, something that I've noticed, uh, that there's no way to judge from, um, a baby what your child will turn into when they get older in terms of their eating habits.
+
+[20:50] So, uh, I know, for instance, like, my older
+
+[20:53] son who uh, is on the, he's on the autistic spectrum. So a lot of those kids have um, a lot of those kids have issues with being very, very picky, not liking things mixed, right?
+
+[21:04] Not liking things that are mixed together, being very sensitive to certain flavors, et cetera, et cetera. And who knows whether these things develop. It's hard to know if these things are going to develop, in fact, it's impossible. But the, um, but the funny thing is, is when he was a baby, he would pound things that tasted like
+
+[21:17] very, adults would never think that you would like. So he used to eat fistfuls of capers. It was fistfuls and fistfuls and capers. He still has some strange tastes. like he loves like fish eggs. He and Nastasia would be like right up the same alley pounding, you know, cured fish eggs. Uh, so you never, you never, never can uh, judge. I mean, you know, I, you know, my hope for you is that you're lucky and you get a child who
+
+[21:40] likes everything an early age and maintains that, love their whole life. I mean, that's a freaking joy as a parent. But, you know, we don't always get lucky. And you always don't, you don't always get to choose what, that's the thing. I thought when I was a parent that if I just expose my kids to all this stuff, then of course they're going to like it the same way I do. No, no, they're their own people, they'll choose what they want. You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. All right. Thank you so much. All right, no problem. And check up on the chat room, because I'm sure some people in the chat room, who've had more recent children have some probably good advice on that. Wouldn't you say, Jack? Absolutely Yeah, all right. Okay, great. take a look at that. All right, thanks very much. Thank you. Okay, so back to the Jeffrey Givens cooking question. got a question for Dave. Oh, we had a question? All right, all right. Call her, you're on the air. Sorry about that. No problem. Call her around the air. up? Oh, hi, Dave. I traded a tweet were 2 of you last week about tandors and what you're looking for in one and want to follow up on that because there seems to be, you got the idea
+
+[22:40] of, um, I mean, I walked through high heat grilling and I was looking at like hamachu likes and you got the idea of tandors in my head and I've been following up on it and there's a lot out there. I figured that one tandor was the same as the next, but they make them out of all sorts of different things, different sizes, no clue what's useful or
+
+[22:55] not in a tandor. Okay, so here's here's. I really only had experience in the one that I have, right? And but I have, you know, a good bit, and I did look into a lot of them. The typical tandor, um, that, you know, that you read about is kind of this, and mine was made in Delhi,
+
+[23:17] right? And so like a lot of those is, I'm pretty sure, and it's been a while that they're done, kind of rope style. They're built up, smoothed out. There's some form of hair fiber, mixed in with the clay, as a binder, right? Then those basic shells are kind of the standard tandor that they make in
+
+[23:36] deli, and then at least for the one that I have, and then they're lined in various different kinds of
+
+[23:40] casings, and they're made in various sizes and shapes, right? There are other people. For instance, there's a relatively, I think, well well regarded tandor maker in the United States. I forget his name. He's not he's not Indian, but he makes a lot of tandors for ovens and for, you know, some kind of fancier
+
+[24:01] establishments. They uses a very different kind of clay makeup. And I think, although it's been a long time. I think he might throw them. In other words, like a traditional, like a traditional pot. So, like, when it comes to composition like that, I don't really have a lot of experience, so it's not like, you know, like using a 1000000 different kinds of ovens that I can come down and say, well, this person's full of
+
+[24:21] crap. This one's not. When I did it just for price, and also for, um, for price, and I figure it's very traditional, I just went with the one that was made in Delhi, right?
+
+[24:31] Because I figured those guys, they know from Tandors, right? And so then, you know, there are some companies that sell tandor shells or, you know, the ovens. Some people do 2 parts and they ship them and then you can encase them in your own sort of refractory. Initial. I was like, look, I just want to use a sucker right away. And so I got one where the guy gets it. They put it inside of a stainless steel bucket. You open it from the bottom and that's that's it. Beyond that, you have to choose what size you want, right? So the, you know, the size I got was the larger of the ones that
+
+[25:03] have recommended for for home people because the guy was like, unless you're going to do really, really big parties,
+
+[25:09] the bigger ones just take a lot more fuel to fire. So you're just going to go through a lot more coal, uh, you know, and it's just going to be kind of a bigger headache that way. And you know what? I think he was right. There are some times I wish I had a lot more space in it. But really, I've, you know, unless you're going to cook for more than 15 people a lot and cook exclusively in the tandor. I think the size that I have is good. And in fact, if I was going to up it, if I was going to get one of the really big ones, I would probably rather have 2 smaller tandors than one big one. So my small one, so if you go to tandors.com, which is in summit New Jersey, I have the larger of the 2 ones that they kind of recommend for home that's on wheels.
+
+[25:47] It's fairly easy to move around if you're a giant hulking person. But I can put one, two, three, four. I could put 4 nans on the inside at once, which is about as much as I can put in before I have to start removing the other one because I'm not that fast.
+
+[26:00] And so, um, you know, I think it's it's pretty, uh, good. But so like once you choose the construction and how it's made, then the size is the next
+
+[26:09] thing. I wanted a freestanding one because I wanted to be more flexible. If you're going to build it in and maybe you can get your own liner and just fill it with
+
+[26:15] a factory around. You know what I mean? I'm assuming you want coal and not gas, right? Um, it's open. And that was the other question I had for you because in my head, it was, um, cold seems like it would get hotter and the whole idea here is, as hot as you can get it. I mean, that's, you know, why I'm not doing it. It depends on what you're doing, frankly. So the problem with tandors is, well, it's not a problem, but like, the coal's at the bottom, and you still have the coal's at the bottom, and
+
+[26:42] typically, the stuff that's at that coal end of the skewer gets really, like, almost like burnt.
+
+[26:48] So it's like, like when I have some time, what I'm going to do. So there's a sweet spot in the skewer above that level where everything is kind of cooked evenly and it's
+
+[26:56] nice and but that's only at medium. If you have roaring hot coals in the bottom, like you're still heating it, then, um, then there isn't necessarily that much of a sweet spot because you just have such intense radiation from the coals on the bottom.
+
+[27:09] I'm going to build a little like blast shield from my skewers that can kind of clip on so that like, I can like have a roaring hot flame, but reflect a lot of that heat back so that that 1st couple of pieces don't have
+
+[27:20] that like, I've just reentered the Earth's atmosphere look to them. Like putting things on a fencing soil? Yeah exactly. on the bottom? Exactly. Yeah, like a reverse fencing foil there. But the, um, so like what I typically do is just throw something I don't care about on the
+
+[27:35] end, like, uh, like half a potato. The other trick is, is like getting the, um, getting the stuff not to slide down is a little bit of an art. But also, not everything wants to cook at the high temperature. So typically what I'll do, and gas, you know, it's probably going to be more nimble. I think people make one that you can just shove the gas burner in when you're using it, pull it
+
+[27:55] out and fire it with coal, which would probably be a good kind of middle ground. Um, but like non doesn't want to be that hot. If the if your oven's too hot for the non, um, it's just going to scorch the bottom before the top gets nice and brown because the clay will heat up so much.
+
+[28:10] So you really, you know, there are, there is a sweet spot. It's not just all like intense ripping, ripping heats. For some things it is. You know what I mean? Shrimp, like you can't really get it, like too hot to do shrimp. You know what I mean? But a lot depends. So there's like, um, the more you use it, the more you'll get the, the hang of that stuff. But typically what I'll do is I'll fire the tandor with a fairly big load of coal. That's like big load gross. Uh, fill the whole thing, uh, and then let it let it come down a little bit. Meanwhile, I'll start a big chimney starter of coals. I'll do my nans when the temperature is kind of mellowed out and the whole thing's relatively even. I'll do my nans, pull them, throw them into the warming oven, like inside. Then I'll dump in the chimney, and then I'll do the proteins that I want to go ripping hot. That's typically what I do. All right, well, thank you. That seems, gives me some more information to look in on. Yeah, and I look, and also like Tandor, it's just immense fun to work with, but don't necessarily feel like you need to go traditional.
+
+[29:11] one of the most rewarding kind of like cooking like fun things that I get to do because it's not technical at all. I mean, it is. You have to think about it technically, but it's not like accurate technical, the way a lot of stuff that I do is. And so, um, if you go to like, uh, one of these, uh, home, you know, home improvement stores, they sell all these, uh, um, gadgets for people's normal grills, like baskets and stuff, which in general,
+
+[29:33] I don't really use when I'm using a normal grill, but they're really kind of cool to hang in the
+
+[29:38] tandor. So like I'll get baskets and you can feel like a, you could like put the baskets like that you could do like hamburgers in it and things that are hard to skewer that you don't necessarily want to
+
+[29:47] skewer, you want to get a higher density and you can expose them very evenly to the radiant heat of the wall by suspending these baskets on a skewer over the thing.
+
+[29:55] Oh, I mentioned this. The other thing you have to get kind of good with is manipulating the lids and the lid and the open vent at the bottom to kind of adjust a flow of heat through it. So if you're, you know, it's all about like putting the skewers around,
+
+[30:09] like rotating them and in and out, in and out. I know I've mentioned that before, but like, you know, it's like all of my all of my breads go in once, duh. But like most of the other things go in at least twice, sometimes 3 times to get that kind of
+
+[30:23] surface the way you want. So you're gonna want to, wherever your tandor is, you're gonna need to have a, and it's better to air hang them, to hang the racks. I mean, you can lay them down, but I find it's better to hang the skewers or whatever you're using in between when they're running. So I have a, uh, like a, a rim near my tandor where I can hang all my skewers in between when they're going in and out and I spray them with
+
+[30:45] Pam to, you want a light oil coat on them. let them dry off before you put in. I hit him with Pam on the 2nd or 3rd go around to get the sizzle going quickly. Little pro tip for you. All right. And are you using Kingsford here or like something special? I use, I use, um, was I forget the name of it. It's in a red bag. It's in a big red bag and it's not Kingsford. I don't use bricks or brickquettes. I use hardwood charcoal, so it looks like pieces of wood. And I throw it in, and it's not that expensive, and the big box stores sell it. And it's great. And, you know, you're not, you know, it's slightly more expensive than the compressed briquettes, but, you know, you kind of, you know what you're
+
+[31:24] getting and I don't know, it just feels right and I use it, you know? Yeah, and lastly, um, do you have any special tools for the nan or like what do you use to get in there? Do you have a, like a welding glove or do you, um, Okay, so here's the thing. The putting the putting it in is not a big deal. They give you like a coconut fiber stuffed pillow,
+
+[31:45] which when you're learning, you'll accidentally catch on fire if you're anything like me. So mine has like all the stuffing coming out of and everything, but I still use it. And, uh, you have this, um, this like, it looks like a little pillow, like, you know, like a, like a catcher's mitt slash pillow. And you stretch out the, you stretch out the bread, you wet the side. It's gonna go against the tandor slightly. I use my hands, but I guess you could use a mister. Do not wet the side that's on the pillow. And then you put your hand in and whack. You get the you get the thing on the side, right? And that's part of the art. When you're learning, you're going to drop a bunch into the fire. Once it touches the coal at the bottom, ignore it. it's done. It's done. It's over, right? Then when you get it off, you don't need a glove either because you're using this dual skewer. You shoving this like pointed stick into the bottom of the of the naan and then scraping it off with this like spatula like stick with the
+
+[32:44] other. These 2 skewers typically come with your tandor. And then it swings down like a pendulum, you lift it out, and you're good to go. that, but you do want to invest in, uh, you're going to have to have some side towels there, and I would also invest in one of those grill gloves because the skewers are intensely freaking hot,
+
+[33:04] right? And if you ever need to work with them and the lid can also get it. Now, the lid, I usually pick up with a side towel, but the skewers and stuff, you don't want to use a side
+
+[33:14] towel, and I'll tell you why. The skewers have a little hook shape on the end of them, right? That's how you're hanging them when they're in between. And when you're trying to manipulate that hook around with a side towel, the side towel gets jumbled around in the hook and it just becomes impossible to do like a lot of fine rotation with
+
+[33:28] it with a side towel. So for the, for lifting out the, the hooks and manipulating them, I use a, um, I
+
+[33:36] use, uh, one of those grill mitts, the, the, I think Weber makes them. And then I use a side towel and to slide the things off of the skewer, typically, I'll slide the stuff off the skewer into a butter dish and then throw it in a warming oven if I'm doing a lot before we're eating.
+
+[33:51] And when you're sliding food off of the skewers, the bottom part of the skewer typically is red hot from being in the coals. So I'll slide it down and get a little bit of that sizzle, drop it into
+
+[34:02] the drop it into the bucket, which goes back into the warming oven inside. And you don't want to try to, you don't want to try to strip a whole skewer at once. Like, like, fragile foods, like shrimp, if you're stripping a whole skewer, they'll literally just blow themselves apart because the
+
+[34:17] proteins on the, on the shrimp have kind of welded themselves around part of the skewer potatoes also do this.
+
+[34:22] The heat will travel up the skewer, and the very bottom potato will have this like incredibly hard to scrape
+
+[34:28] off like ring of potato, like kind of melded to the skewer at the bottom. So if you try to pull the whole skewer off at once, you'll just shred everything that's on the skewer. So what you want to do is kind of like take take the 1st thing off the bottom and then either one or 2 things at a time off. The good thing about that is, is that if you have a situation where there's a huge temperature delta in your oven from the bottom to the top, you can take off
+
+[34:54] that, that bottom one that's going to get done and then throw the, throw the rest of this or the bottom 2 and throw the rest back in to finish
+
+[35:01] up. You do not have to remove all of them at once, which is another pro tip. Nice. Nice. Well, thank you very much. I think this was, um, yeah, you got me all amped up for tandors now. Nice. Well, you know, right back and let us know. I've never met someone who's like, you know, I got a tandor, and you know what? It wasn't very good. Never had that happen. You know what I mean? Sounds good. All right. Thank you very much. All right, no problem. Okay, so back to Jeffrey Givens question and custom makeup. On to the cooking issue. We recently held a fry fest with our outdoor 6 gallon, 6
+
+[35:35] gallon, Cajun fryer, about which I spoke with you on air just after Thanksgiving. It holds £47 of oil. You must, must acquire one of these for your outdoor Connecticut kitchen. Well, I have a regular, uh, £35, I think, uh, you know, commercial fryer, but if I had to go back, I might not get the commercial fryer. might have gotten the Cajun fryer. Who knows, because it's meant to go outside, and mine is not meant to go outside, which means I have to keep it under an eve, which is a little bit of a pain in the
+
+[35:59] butt. But if I told my wife that I was going to go spend money on another fryer,
+
+[36:03] like I would be talking out of the other side of my face because she would have slapped it like, like, right? I mean, like there's no way. Imagine telling Jen that I was going to buy another deep fryer stats. You know? No, no, no, all right. The little monster could handle every freaking thing we threw at it, and we literally could not keep up with battering and chucking all manner of food into it due to the high heat capacity and
+
+[36:23] recovery. By the way, I did your take a whole chicken, break it down and circulated 2 different temperatures with debone, meat glued thighs, rolled up in their own
+
+[36:31] skin and drumsticks debone by snipping the tendons and popping the thing out with the skin still intact. Incredible. Good. I glad people are still using that technique. I love that technique. I like fried chicken, as we've mentioned before. The only thing that didn't work from a functional standpoint, there were a few flavor disasters, were battered cheese sticks. When you say battered cheesesteaks, do you think of like cheesesteaks that have taken a beating or you think of battered as Nastasia, and that's why I love Nastasia, because she thinks about like those cheesesteaks
+
+[36:55] taking a freaking beating. Whereas like most people would think like breaded, right, right, Jack? Most people would think breaded, I think. He gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway. Right. We tried a smoked Gouda. And you like smoked Gouda stars? Not really. Really? Do you? Yeah. I grew up eating it. You know, like it grew up getting it in all those like 1970s like cheese baskets. I like, so I grew up liking any kind of smoked cheese. Jack thoughts. He's not there anymore? Dave Good is great. You smoked? Oh yeah, absolutely. What about other smoked cheeses? Do you like other smoked cheeses? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like them all. Yeah. Stas, what are your thoughts on the Italian, like, Fumicato, like, Pecorino
+
+[37:36] Saros? Really hard, like smoked cheeses. No? I do in small quantities. I wouldn't wanna eat a lot. What are your thoughts on truffle to cheeses? Don't like at all. Wow nice. Do you? Oh, I don't want to not like them, but I don't like them. Most of my family likes. Anyway, trouble is tough. Truffle... Wow, it's almost a rhyme. Truffle, truffle, truffle, truffle tough one. Get into a truffle tussle. Yeah, now it's like a Dr. Seuss, like a truffle tree. Anyway, the cheese. Okay, anyway. We try to smoked Gouda and a pepper jack cut into sticks and battered, ensuring full coating. The cheese invariably disappeared, leaving only a thin melted layer stuck to the inside of the battered shell. The rest was hollow. Even cream cheese stuffed peppers with an open top had no problem. So it didn't seem as though simple moisture content was the issue. What gives and are there other products you found surprisingly problematic in the fryer? Good question. I too have had this problem. I think I mentioned last week that like the worst thing I've ever done was the falafel balls that just like blew themselves apart. So you have a couple of issues going on here. Most people, when they're breading and frying stuff, are overheating their oil because they're doing it at home. You're not overheating it because you're doing it in a real fryer, right? So they overheat their oil. So the oil will get ruined very quickly, which yours won't. But on the flip side, their cheesesteaks are only in the oil for like 30 seconds tops before they're all brown and starting to burn. So they can pull it out before the entire thing turns to a massive goo and sprays out. In your case, you probably have a more reasonable temperature of like 360,
+
+[39:11] 350, 360, And if you're doing like chicken that hasn't been pre-cooked, sometimes even lower, like 33, 43 in this 330 in this area. I, you know, I do, you know, anyway, so the point being that the longer the stuff's in the fryer, the more chance you have for a pin leak to happen in your coating, and then those kinds of cheeses will literally pump, as opposed to cream cheese, which
+
+[39:32] won't will pump themselves out under the pressure of the, um, of the boiling
+
+[39:37] water, uh, and steam will pump themselves out of the case and leave you with a kind of a hollow
+
+[39:42] shell. And so I've literally done things like candy bars, uh, and I think I've done candy bars, uh, like ice creams, things like this, and you'll see
+
+[39:50] them and you'll be like, it's perfect, it's perfect, it's perfect. And then you'll, like at the last minute, you won't pull it out in time. It'll blast a hole in the coating and then it will pump all of it out into your oil like almost instantaneously because it's complete liquid on the inside. So I would just say, take your cheese sticks, double dip them to make sure you've got a really good coating on double dip, double dip.
+
+[40:12] In fact, I saw a lady on the internet who wrapped a wonton skin around her cheesestick. What do you think about that says? weird, huh? Wonton sticker. I think it might be too hard. Anyway, double dip and freeze those suckers for a while so that the outside, not for a long time. Don't freeze them all the way through, but freeze them so the outside's really, really cold. There's not a lot of water, not that much water in the breading. It will come at the temperature and brown fast enough, and you might be able to get the thing out and do leave them in for the minimum amount of time possible. And, you know, that's kind of what I would say about that. What do you think so? Anyway, let us know how it works. Here we go. We got a, we got a, uh, okay, thanks for keeping me company on my commute every day. You guys are awesome. I've got another technical question, but this one doesn't involve Sabbath or Jewish holidays. And this is from, this is from, oh, my God, my brain, from
+
+[41:03] David Statman, a.k.a. a Jews Bouche. Stas likes this. Stas put an I like face on with that Twitter handle. Anyway, he thinks that I'd make a good Talmudic rabbi. What he thinks does? Yeah. Yeah? Because I'm so why? Because I like to analyze everything. That's what Stas hates about me the most. I'm researching how I can use a CO2 tank to charge my whipping siphon for
+
+[41:29] carbonation of liquids, alcohol, fruit, et cetera. instead of using CO2 cartridges. What pressure should I set the regulator for for equal charging with one or 2 CO2 charges? And consequently, what I need a regulator for carbonating beer or the higher pressure soda fountain regulator, always get the higher pressure one, by the way. Right up. I'm just going to say as to anyone. Anyone who's asking, unless all you're doing is beer in a restaurant, get the freaking higher pressure
+
+[41:52] one. Please, don't ever buy. Why would you want to limit yourself? It's not more money, right, Stas? Staz is like, I don't care. I just going shake my head so Dave stops looking at me. Here's more information I've collected on the setups and pressures, including information from EC customer service, which, you know, ignore. I plan on making a barb fitting like this guy did. you can't see what this guy is because you're on the, you know, this is, you know, not a visual medium. But what this guy did was he took a hose barb. Uh, so for those of you who are not familiar, we're talking about whipped cream makers, uh, that uh, EC makes, and uh,
+
+[42:23] you, you screw those little cartridges of CO2 in, right? And it punctures, there's a little needle and a rubber gasket that you push
+
+[42:32] the, that you screw the cartridge into. It punctures the cartridge, the gasket seals it, such that all of the pressure from the CO2 cartridge gets directed into the whipper. That's how it works. So at this, it's rather clever actually. actually person did was they took like a hose barb fitting. Looks like it's about a quarter an inch hose barb fitting, attached to their CO2 line with a little ball valve, and you just push it onto the gasket so it
+
+[42:57] seals, and then you let the pressure into the thing. That's what it looks like they're doing. And so it's kind of clever. Like, when I did it, when I built it, obviously, when I built my attachment to my UC, it was considerably more complicated. I machined a mating piece to go on to the, um, to go on to that thing, which is really complicated. But what my system, what this system does, is it acts just like a the CO2 cartridge that you get when you put it in. In other words, you inject a certain amount of pressure and then you pull it away. You can't inject and that's the amount of gas that's in your product. This is the key, by the way. Well, let me finish the question. So the guy in the above reference link, which you don't have because you can't see me. Uh, carbonates at £140 per square inch. I inquire from EC directly about the regular operating pressure of their
+
+[43:48] siphons, and I've repetited their response, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, and referring to N2O whipping siphons. Chris Young said in the comments on a chef steps infusion process that one is unlikely to achieve pressures of over 80 PSI and the whipping siphon. That not true. Listen, forget what anyone told you. Forget what EC told you. Forget what anyone told you. What's happening to you is you're clouding your mind. Think about this. You get to completely erase anything that you've thought and think about how carbonation works. This is going to help anyone who's kind of carbonating. You're dealing with 3 very different ways of carbonating and the confusion that you're having is trying to operate between those different ways of carbonating.
+
+[44:31] One, the way I carbonate, I have my gas tank, my CO2
+
+[44:36] tank, in always connected to my product as I'm carbonating. So I choose a pressure, right? And typically for cocktails, it's £45 per square inch. I choose a pressure, right? And then I attach, I put CO2 at that pressure onto my product and I agitate it violently. As I'm agitating, more gas is supplied from my tank into the bottle until the pressure on the inside of the liquid. There's enough CO2 on the inside of liquid to counterbalance that 45 PSI and no more gas is supplied because it's relatively in equilibrium, right?
+
+[45:14] So I can pressure, I can carbonate at a low pressure, and I get a very consistent, very consistent result.
+
+[45:21] Why? Because the only variable that is really changing is the
+
+[45:26] temperature and the composition of the liquid. So as long as my liquid is cold enough, then I know I'm going to get the same result all the time. Even if I have a little bit in the bottle, I'm going to get the same result as if I have a lot in the bottle because I keep supplying gas at that same pressure until I reach relatively until I reach equilibrium,
+
+[45:44] right? And I can vent in between and I can keep doing it over and over, very repeatable results. Okay. The way that EC does it, right, is they sell you 7.5 gram carbon dioxide cartridges, it pumps the entire 7.5 gram cartridge into your
+
+[46:03] whipping siphon, right? And then the pressures become whatever the pressures become, right? And it depends on a lot of things. It depends on how much liquid is in, what the composition of the liquid
+
+[46:16] is that's in it, and the temperature involved. So, uh, right? And now there's a 3rd way of doing it, right? And because, uh, what, remember, what easy is doing is putting a fixed weight of CO2 into
+
+[46:30] your uh, into your thing. When you move to a tank with this fitting that you're going to make, this hose barb fitting that you're going to make, you're doing neither of those 2 things. You are injecting a specific weight of
+
+[46:43] CO2, but based solely on the pressure of the CO2 that you're putting
+
+[46:49] in and the amount of headspace that you have. So with EC, it's a fixed weight. With you, the weight is dependent on the headspace and the pressure. Confusing enough so far, so does. Yeah, super confusing, right? So, but this is why everyone gets all this stuff wrong because you have to think about exactly what you're doing. I will just give you some numbers to make this clear. I'm just going to apologize. It's going to be a headache for anyone that doesn't care about it. But look at this. A 500 milliliter EC whipped cream maker, right? Hold 500 milliliters. And this chart's in my book so you can look at it later. If you want. 500 milliliters of liquid, right? And has 272 milliliters of headspace, meaning it's blank space. When you inject the 7.5 grams of CO2 into that,
+
+[47:37] right, into water there. The pressure is 197 psi. These numbers, they did them in front of me when I was in Austria, at EC, at their
+
+[47:45] factory, where they had a head with a gauge on it, right? 197 PSI. Thats 13.6 bar for all you euro folks, right? Now, when you shake it, right, that this is with 20 degrees Celsius water, right? So it doesn't absorb that much CO2, it goes down to 119 PSI, which is 8.2 bar. That's one charger. Now, look at, look at what we're, look what we're saying. I did some calculations. I went online, use what called an ideal gas calculator where I determined exactly what was going on. What that pressure means in that headspace is that 6.67 grams of that 7 of that 7.5 grams of CO2 is in the headspace.
+
+[48:25] Less than one gram of that CO2 is actually in the liquid in that point. And what that means is pretty much 100% of the CO2 that you
+
+[48:33] inject, if you're not shaking, is right in that headspace. And remember, the way that you're going to put CO2 in, you are not going to shake it while it's under pressure. And what that means is, is that you're limited with the pressure on how much is CO2 you can inject into your headspace.
+
+[48:49] Does this make any sense to us? Like, I don't care. The good news is, is that you don't need to have a super high pressure, but you might need to keep reinjecting CO2 into the headspace over and over and over and over again,
+
+[49:04] right? Um, I'll give you another example. So if you were to do a 100 milliliters, right, sorry, if you had a one liter whipper and you put a full liter into it, there's still only 262 milliliters of headspace in that in that whipper, you're going to get the
+
+[49:20] same roughly 200 PSI in the headspace because not that much is going into the water,
+
+[49:25] right? When you shake it, the PSI drops to a lot lower to 77 PSI because you have a lot more liquid in there. Now, if you were to use ethanol, pure almost, ethanol, right? You get the same about, you know, it's only 15% lower. You get about 170 PSI and that thing before. When you shake it, the pressure's over 3 times lower because it's absorbing so much
+
+[49:45] more CO2. So what you're going to want to do is just choose a pressure. You want to choose 140, choose 140, right? The more headspace you put in, the more CO2 you're going to inject, right? So if you were to do 140 PSI, you're going to put 4.7 grams of CO2 into a
+
+[50:02] head into the headspace of an EC if it's full at capacity, right? If you were to reduce it, let's say you were to increase the head capacity to
+
+[50:10] uh, 500 mils instead of 200, uh, 70 or 250, you'll double the amount of CO2 that's in that headspace, right? So you can you can do that. But, let's say you were to, so confusing. I'm sorry. But like what you should probably do is just keep testing. And when you see what you like, weigh the damn thing and figure out how many grams of CO2 you have in it. That's what I would do. Weigh it. figure out how many grams. A volume of CO2 is 2 grams per liter. This is not including the headspace. You have to calculate how much. And so if you did 140 psi and you fill it all the way to the top, you know that the headspace contains 4.7 grams.
+
+[50:47] Then if you have, for instance, a liter bottle and you have a liter in there, you're going to want about 4 volumes of CO2 to have a really strong carbonation, 4 volumes of CO2 is 8 grams per liter. And so you're going to want 8 +4.7, 12.7 grams heavier than it is when you
+
+[51:04] started, and that should give you the good answer. What do you think? Does that make any damn sense? Does anyone, is this one making any damn sense at all? Do we have 30 seconds? 30 seconds. All right. Brandon Hodgkins wrote in. He wants to make some bacon popcorn. I want to know if you have any tips on how to make the bacon bits adhere to the popcorn so the bits don't end up all on the bottom. I was considering using exorbit mixed with bacon renderings to make a bacon powder for added bacon flavor. Do you think that would work well? Yeah, here's what you want to do. Make sure you get like a Benton's bacon, something with very heavy smoke because it's going to have a lot more smoke. When you're using the ends orbit. Remember, the enemy of Anzorbit is, um, is liquids. So what you should do is render your bacon out in the oven, right? Save the fat, right? Take the things that are rendered, render them long and low so that you're not burning it. You can then dehydrate the bacon further. You can blitz the ends orbit with the fat and the bacon solids as long as there's enough endsorbit in there to not let the oil go out and ruin the powderiness of it,
+
+[52:00] right? That's what's going to what'll gum it up. So you could actually blitz the bacon and the
+
+[52:05] insorbit together so that you have a lot stronger bacon flavor that should coat the thing.
+
+[52:11] Remember, also, you need some liquid oil to get the adhesion, but I'm assuming that you're popping this in the rendered bacon fat anyway, because otherwise, why would you air pop,
+
+[52:19] bacon, popcorn, and then make it bacon flavor. That makes no sense. Does this does? Cooking issues.
+
+[52:30] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market for more information. Visit Whole Foods market.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Food. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more.
+
+[0:23] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live almost at 12 on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah, we got Jack Jackie molecules in the engineering booth. What's up? We got ice cream sandwiches on the way. sandwiches, sandwiches. We also, I think David's over there. Did somebody say sandwiches? Yes. Well, we also have, we also have Peter, Peter, the Kim, Kim Master, Kim Wipe, the Captain
+
+[1:00] Kim, from the Museum of Food and Drink here for all of your food and drink. What's a Kimwipe? Kimwipe is the laboratory version of Kimball and Clark Kleenexes that are used in laboratory environments.
+
+[1:12] Kim White. And Peter Kim just crossed the line as usual, habitual line stepper, and made an obscene gesture in front of the fellow
+
+[1:21] who, luckily, is texting eating his pizza. Oh, man. Is there anything more depressing than a dude chugging a glass of red wine by himself with a pizza texting?
+
+[1:29] It's like if you're just having a glass of red wine and the pizza. Maybe if it were like 7 o'clock, it'd be a little more for you. It's noon on a Tuesday. It sounds like a Billy Joel song. You should rewrite that. It's not 5 o'clock on a Saturday. What was it? I'm texting alone. Peter's using his flamenco skills, but many of you might not know because Nastasia, while she loves to share other people's personal information on the radio
+
+[1:58] program, doesn't share her own. It was her birthday yesterday. No, it was Two days ago? Sunday, Sunday. Same. Anyway. So Booker. Oh, so you don't want this stuff? That's from Booker, not from you. You don't want the stuff I got you? Okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh. So Booker Booker wanted to get her sour patch kiss when she is. And then Dax wanted on the action, so... And then, you know, Nastasi and I, our favorite shopping area, is the as scene on TV section of the local CVS or, well,
+
+[2:28] Nastasi goes to CVS because it has close proximity to her. I go to a Rite Aid because, you know, that mentioned this already, the new Rite Aid, the Rite Aid, they've gone, their buyers aren't local. I didn't buy the story. But the, they're like, the, there's an entire section of garden tools in the, in the lower Manhattan, like lower
+
+[2:49] east side, Rite Aid. There's a whole section of garden tools and like hose accessories for your pocket hose. Don't get me started. There's like a, there's like a, it's called a hose holder. Like, yeah, yes, clibbitual line stamp, Peter. But I was like, who the hell's gonna, like, we're not in fancy parts of Manhattan, like Nastasia, who's part of a community garden. Ain't nobody needing hose, hose implements, like actual garden hose implements down in my neighborhood. But I saw something that actually I've always wanted to buy because it horrifies me. But I can't buy it for my own use. So I got it for Nastasia. And we'll talk about it. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, tell him what it is, does. It's a dump meal cookbook. It's the dump meal cookbook. I have got, I have purchased Nastasia, the dump meal cookbook. And luckily, luckily, folks, in that same section, because I know that Nastasia Lopez does not have a crock pot.
+
+[3:37] H on a second. Oh no. Oh, wow. A New York apartment sized. Proctor Silex test improving. Rite Aid bought. Crock pot. Perfect for 2 for you and Mark Stas. So, like, I want you, like, well, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think that like, and we'll see what the people in the chat room think. but so the idea of dump meal, dump, dump meal. What's the lady's name who wrote dump meals? Kathy Mitchell. Kathy Mitchell, author of Dump Meal, also had the other cookbook, Dump Cakes, Dump. We gotta get her on the show. Yeah, so my point is, is that like, it's kind of a horrifying concept. By like 3 cans of this and like a hunk of that, throw it in a
+
+[4:21] crock pot, walk away, and then when you get home from work, you have a meal, right? I'm gonna try it. So anyway, so I think that people might enjoy Nastasia highlighting a recipe maybe like once a week or something, making it, like actually trying to eat it in Stasia Lopez down, and
+
+[4:35] they come and breaking down the dump meal for us. I mean, maybe, look, maybe, in fact, I know this lady is making more money than
+
+[4:41] we're ever going to make on anything that we do with the dump meals and, you know, like, so why are we worried around like, oh, like, we're all worried about little nuances of flavor and production and stuff. It's like, no, don't. Have you had an idea as good as dump meals? No, no. No, apparently I have not. Apparently, I have not. The dump meal. So maybe you can look through here while we're talking. Yeah, but no, you won't because you hate cumin. Two bean chili. I thought when you give a number like that has to be an odd number. She has a 2 bean chili in there? Come on, there's no such thing as a two bean chili. 357, you know, or something. Yeah, do an odd number. Yeah, how many beans in the salad? It's never like a... It's a bean salad. No, 4 bean? No. Odd number of beans. This is like Peter. The same with beans and grains. Really grains as well? Yeah, multigrain bread. You have 11 grain, 13 grain, 9 grain, never like 6 grain. It's true actually. Yeah, that's true. You know, but sometimes, in other words, like, if you only had 2 grains in it, you just wouldn't call it out. No, you would multigrain, maybe. Right. No one has like duo grain. So here's one, spicy orange chicken nuggets. You put it on the crock pot. Frozen popcorn chicken bites. Oh, teriyaki marinade. Three quarts, three-fourth cup, orange juice concentrate, some orange marmalade,
+
+[6:00] sriracha, and orange peel. Orange peel? Why are you going all fancy on me? All of a sudden, now you're... We have a few things happening here. There was an ice cream sandwich delivery that just happened. And I also have Don Lee on the phone. Oh, all right. Well, take some Don Lee while we're getting the ice cream ready. All right, Don Lee, you were on the air. How's it going Dave? Going all right. Going a little better now. Nastasi is cooking up something in the dump in the in the dump pot. We call it the crop. Well, speaking of bad business plans, I've got a business proposition for you that is worse than your deli belly plan. Oh, have I ever spoken about deli belly on air? Is anyone remember whether I was spoken about Dolly Belly dinner? Okay, okay. For those of you don't know, the idea is we go to places where there might be stuff in the local water that gives you severe gastrointestinal distress.
+
+[6:48] We ship the water here to your locale and serve it to you in the comfort of your own home so that you can, you know, wrangle out your issues with your own toilet and your own doctor and then go travel with
+
+[6:57] impunity. That, the deli belly. horrible, horrible, terrible idea. All right, go. So we take this to the next logical conclusion. Why get sick? Why not just have a fecal transplant? Oh, super poop. Super poop. Well, have you read Mary Roach's excellent book, Gulp? Yep. Yeah. So in there, she discusses Mary Roach. excellent author, by the way. her books are phenomenal. She a very funny writer. on science topics. Discusses poop transplants, and that fits in Peter quite well with your farm to toilet kind of thinking for the museum. But you really, so you actually want to make a business of this? Don't you still need to get people sick before you? I think you need to take one for the team. Go everywhere, drink all the tap water everywhere and create the ideal flora fauna in your
+
+[7:49] system, and then market your poop as the super poop. Wow, that is so hardcore. Like, that might be the grossest thing we've ever discussed. Yep. Do we have a do we have a bell for the grossest thing you ever discussed on? I don't think I have a bell for that. I don't know Like a gross bell? I'm like. I just have this. Is there such a thing, Jack? Is there such a thing, Jack, as a sad cowbell? A sad cowbell? I don't know. I'm trying to imagine what a sad cowbell is. Let's see. see if I can do it. It's still too, yeah. Still too, like, it needs to be, like, muted somehow. Yeah. We'll work on it. We'll work on the sad cowboy for you. Yeah, that's even sadder, right? That fits super poop. That's what you would say. more like a bowel movement, yeah. All right. All right, Don. You got anything else for us? Otherwise I got to go eat some ice cream sandwiches. I just want to do a quick rant to say that I'm really mad at all this native advertising I'm
+
+[8:51] seeing. I just found out that Hellman's Mayo has trademarked the term
+
+[8:55] Strange Witch and is getting celebrities to talk about weird sandwiches. What? Hashtag StrangeWitch. Wait, what? First of all, what the hell is a strange witch? Any sandwich that's odd? Apparently. Do you put mayonnaise? Do you put mayonnaise on a Cuban sandwich? I didn't know that that was a thing. And then I heard some people were like, no, you got to put mayonnaise on a Cuban. What are your thoughts, guys? Mayonnaise on a Cuban? Nope. I don't know. No? I like I like mayonnaise quite a bit. I, I, I, from time to time, will purchase the Helmins, which is known as best foods mayonnaise for those of you who are west of the
+
+[9:35] Rockies. I think it's just west of the Rockies. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I think about that. I don't think sandwiches should be strange. I think sandwiches should be delicious. It's my feeling Let's start on Twitter first. You'll see a lot of advertising. Most recently, Patrick Harris just posing something, I think, love that guy, but why is he shielding relevance? I don't know. I like Neil Patrick Harris as well, so I'm going to assume he just likes the product. I will, I will do some research, Don, on Neil Patrick Harris's sandwiching, uh, sandwiching stuff, but in my mind, uh, Doogie Hauser can do no wrong. I mean from Doogie Hauser to Starship Troopers. You guys are Neil Patrick. No, you want to hear the strange witch he made? All right. Hellman's, Peppers, garlic time, allspice, and coconut. First of all, what kind of peppers? Well, 1st of all, what kind of peppers? Does it matter? And what kind of coconut? What are we talking here? I can't think of any combination of those things. Unsweetened desiccated coconut. It's kind of like a neutral thing. I mean, think about it, you use that all the time in savory, right? So what do we got here? What kind of peppers? don't know. also worse than that. It's not bread. It's on toastones. Oh, yeah, it's a bad idea. Yeah. That's not a good idea. I mean, who knows, maybe it tastes good. Not a sandwich. Tostone is not as Tostone is not sandwiched sized. It's a cracker sized. Peter, do you consider something between 2 pieces of cracker a sandwich? You don't want to get me started on this, but no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't either. I don't either. Man, no. So are we adding leaven into the sandwiched? Oh, that's very strong. What are your feelings on? Do you require leavening for a sandwich? I think there's a continuum and I would say leavening puts it in a more sewer camp of being a sandwich. Right. So in other words, there's a gray area. You say, you got to take into account the
+
+[11:25] bread of suffering of affliction. Matza. Yeah, but they didn't have time to make a sandwich. They're running through the desert trying to escape. They didn't have time to make a sandwich. They didn't have time to make bread. to put some meat between 2 matzza, to carry it, so it's easy to eat in the desert while running from the Egyptians. You deny them there. They had to bake the bread within like 10 minutes of the water hitting the flour. They're not going to have time to sit there and slice the pickles and put on the mayonnaise and all that other stuff.
+
+[11:54] You know what I mean? I think you're like you're out, you know, you're supposed to be, if it's affliction, the sandwich is like a height of delicious, right? So like, if it's supposed to be affliction, what the hell you doing? You can't, no, no, I mean, no, no. My point of view, I like cream cheese on a matzo, though. If you have unleavened bread, but it's, but the shape of the way you're structuring this thing is actually a sandwich, like a slice of unleavened
+
+[12:15] bread and then stuff that you would normally put in a sandwich and then a slice of unleavened bread on top, that could qualify as a sandwich. However, the other, but if it's wrapped around it, then I think you're starting to move into more like burrito. But here's another thing. Here's nothing you're going to add, right? Like whether or not something is technically a sandwich is kind of moot. By the way, we need to get these ice cream sandwiches are going to go. But the point is, is that there are sandwiches that maybe are sandwiches, but they
+
+[12:36] suck. And here's why. A sandwich, you should be able to pick it up because remember open face sandwiches or what? Not sandwiches. Because they're literally not sandwiched. They are a layered, they're, they're, it's topped. It's like, I don't know. Point is, is that you should be able to lift a sandwich in the air and take a bite out of it without the, without it shattering into a 1000000000 pieces and raining down onto your lap. So matza doesn't qualify. Mata is like a big piece of shatter. It just, you crush it and it shatters. I would have to agree. Yeah, it's not right. Matza, peanut butter, delicious. Peanut butter and jelly, on a matza, delicious, not a sandwich. Matzo pizza, not pizza. Delicious, not a sandwich, even if you snap it in half. You know what I'm saying? Anyway. That's my feeling. All right, all right, all right. All right. So we have some, uh, we have some ice cream sandwiches here from, uh,
+
+[13:26] milk cult, milk cult, DC, which are, we've been following them on Twitter for a long time. I've never actually met them, I don't think. I was actually going to be in DC on Friday. I was gonna maybe stop, but I'm not. This is a Ziploc bag, Nastasi. I think someone pilfered some of the sandwiches. These are was sent to the show because we did a session where... So let's see how many you can eat. All right. Yeah, now go. All right. Oh, my God. I didn't realize I was going to go into, I was young, by the way. My wife doesn't allow me to do that stuff anymore. Vanilla chocolate chip. Now, Jack informs me that in the trip, and I can see they were slightly melted and remelted, I would say there was like a 35%
+
+[14:10] melted happening, you know? 35% meltage? Yeah. And then we, you know, threw them in the freezer, so... Oh, so there, yeah, yeah. The wax paper. A little bit. Not like all the way, you know? Peter's always got to hate. Peter, you know, Peter is like a big ball of... That's like, yeah, Peter, we told that story on the air, right? We were at somebody's, where were we? We were in somebody's like favorite restaurant. We were somebody's fully in town in Williamstown. Somebody's favorite. I'm eating, so Nastasi explained this. And some professors took us out to their favorite restaurant. They asked Peter what he thought of the food and Peter said, undercooked and overseasoned, overcooked and underseasoned. Oh. So people get see what it looks like. No, thanks, Dave. I don't want any ice cream sandwiches. Thanks, man. Good. glad you don't. What do you got? That's a thing of ice cream. I guess you cover something. It's hard to talk while you're eating an ice cream sandwich. And sassy, you're going to have to talk for me. what you're taking out of here. I took out a tub of vanilla ice cream, and now I'm trying to separate other sandwiches. It's coconut to fear. Oh. I don't want to spoil my appetite. What? Really? You were mailing an ice cream sandwich from Freaking Washington. You were going to eat it. Yeah, plater, what flavor do you have? I don't know what I don't know what flavor this is. And Nastasia said that. She's got the best one. At least melted one. The one that was closest to the ice pack. Vanilla. No. I see vanilla beans, but it could be vanilla bean matter, of course, right? Why don't you explain that little bit of nanny poo to the audience while I'm finishing my
+
+[15:47] sandwich? No, I mean, a lot this Dave actually loves telling this story. It's really your story to tell, Dave, honestly, but apparently in a lot of vanilla ice cream. Pretend you're to even see. I was at a factory. Hello, this is Dave Otto wrong cooking is too. I don't want to tell you about my story out loud. Vanilla bean, meta and vanilla ice cream. So it turns out that, so it turns out that a lot of the little black specks you see in vanilla ice cream are not really, they don't serve any flavor purpose. They're just, this stuff called vanilla bean matter, which is just this byproduct from processing vanilla that has 0 flavor, but it just has the
+
+[16:22] little brown specks of vanilla bean in it, and you can put it in ice cream to make it look like it has more vanilla in it.
+
+[16:30] And apparently Dave went to a flavor house. Was it? Yeah. Yeah, in fact. And I don't know whether we want to call them out, but they're one of the people who helped us on the exhibit.
+
+[16:41] Well, yeah. Oh, now he's eating a sandwich. No, I'm supposed to be talking. And so, like, I went and took a big spoonful of this stuff out of the, out of the barrel, and it basically just tastes like kind of like a little bit like a tea, like a little bit mildly vegetal.
+
+[16:55] Nastasi even, this has nothing to do with anything. I've already plowed through one sandwich, by the way. So that's how long it takes me to finish one. I keep going, so if I have to talk, I'll eat another one during break, uh, and then we'll talk about it. But, uh, Nastasia, you would follow me this. It kind of food related, this lemonade thing. Jack has, Jack has, you know, being a musical style person is definitely following it. I mean, wait, this is coconut? No, not the one you have in your hand? No, that one. would rather eat that. No, what? I would rather eat. The bucket? All right, jeez. Do you have a spoon that? We can make that happen. We're so demanding. We're so demanding. By the way, one more note on the dump meals before we go. can't take this lady anywhere. There it goes. One more note on the dump meals. This woman, what's her name again? Do you remember? Kathy Mitchell has slow cooker recipes for pork tenderloin in it. It's all. You see how hammered that? Well, I think part 101 is what I ate at that restaurant. Well, that's your fault for ordering it, fool. But, like, the thing is, is, like, I think at the end of a slow cooking, a whole pork loin, right, in the cooker, I think what you do is dump the sauce off, eat the sauce, and then use the pork loin as a
+
+[18:07] Brillo pad to scour out your slow cooker because that's about how usable it's going to be at the end of that. I use it as a pumice stone. Yeah. Oh my god. My thing didn't modify. I don't have today's radio questions. I'm going to have to do it. I'm gonna have to do it by, do you have the questions? They're just the one. No, there's two. Oh, the one I send this one? What did you have about lemonade, Dave? Did you have something there or just? No, I just wanted to know what you guys thought about. I know Nastasia follows Beyonce and Jay-Z and, you know. Yes, Stas, you're into that? No. That's a lie. That's a lie. Like on Instagram, I do not. Oh, no, I mean, in real life, you follow him. Like, you're like... Yeah. And then, yeah, whatever. I had an issue because somebody, I heard somebody the other day was like, yeah, Beyonce is like the new
+
+[18:55] prince and I'm like, yeah, after she, maybe if she learned how to play 10 instruments. Wow. I mean, come on. Yeah, this is the 1st episode we had after Prince. I couldn't believe that happened. Crazy. What's your favorite print song, Jack? Whoa, that's tough question. I've been listening to a lot of more stay in the time for the past week, actually. Oh, yeah. What's the song? 777-9311. I don't know if you know that one. That's good stuff. I'm a fan of a housequake. You know that song? Yeah, that's good. I like Housequake, and I like the black album, because I remember back when in the 80s when I was in high school, we
+
+[19:28] went, and I think it was the 80s. Yeah. We went down to St. Mark's place. There used to be a place that sold bootleg cassettes on St. Mark's and bootleg actually LPs. Oh, right. And we was only available bootleg, right? I don't even remember the name of it. It's like it was upstairs. You know what I mean? We would walk up the stairs to that, like, 2nd Florey shop and
+
+[19:45] it's all these bootlegs and we were like, you know, kids, you're like, 0 my god, it's illegal. Why is nobody busting these people? And you buy bootlegs. And Prince had a whole, and at the time, this blew my freaking mind, right? Prince had a whole album, the black album, which he just never released. He did it. He finished it, compiled it, never released. I think he later did actually. I think later it was officially released. Yeah, it did. female like a few years later. Yeah, but like back then it was like the idea that like someone would compose a whole album and then just be like, nah, crap on it. And then not release it was like, like, and so there's a song in there called Bob George that I listen to a lot. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. It's all this crazy. You know that song? No. Bob. I think Prince single-handedly triggered my entry into puberty with
+
+[20:28] the song Cream. Whoa. That's way a lot of information while you're sitting there pounding ice cream sandwiches and making lewd
+
+[20:37] gestures. That's lewd gestures. Before, he Before, he totally made a lewd gesture. There's no l gesture. That's a lew gesture. No, it's not a gesture. It's a total new gesture. Every day I have to deal with this people. Please. This man runs a food museum. Can you believe it? All right. Hey, cooking issues, gang. Good luck on the centrifuge. By the way, we have the what they hopefully last prototype rotor before we can like figure out and approve what's going on. So it should be some updates soon. That's coming what, next week? Next week. I can start testing with it. Oh, I do not envy any of you that have to make items across intercontinental item manufacturing
+
+[21:16] is, oh, such a joy, right? Stas? Yeah. Good luck on the centerfuge. I have my ducats ready to slap on the pre-order form. So my grocery store, so now that here comes the question. So my grocery store only sells cream in pints. And at the rate I go through it, I tend to only use half before it spoils.
+
+[21:35] Any tip on how to keep cream fresher for longer or fresh for longer. I primarily use it for seasoning coffee, I guess lightning coffee. I would guess I would use about a quarter of a pint a week maximum. So I need a pint of cream to last a month with quarter pint drawdowns. I've tried the room temperature stable mini have in halves, but the flavor is overly cooked
+
+[21:55] caramelly and not what I am going for. That's just gross. Stuff straight gross. Gnarly. Nasty. Fresh sweet cream flavor is the best. If there's nothing to be done, any recipe suggestions to use up the cream before it spoils every week or two. Thanks to the great content. Chris. Oh, Chris, Chris, listen. Listen, 1st of all, uh, cream, at least in my supermarket, cream is
+
+[22:18] actually, uh, vastly more expensive in the um, pint and half pint uh, things and vastly cheaper in the full court. So it's like, you're paying only, like if you're buying like a half pint to a quart, you're only paying double for the whole quart versus a half pint.
+
+[22:38] Now once you have a quart of cream on hand, right? Then you can use some for your coffee and then you can do all kinds of fantastic stuff with the rest. Butter, right? Making your own butter is fant- it's delicious. It's rewarding, and you get the buttermilk for cooking with pancakes or whatever, muffins or whatever. I't know what you cook. Do you cook pancakes? Do you cook muffins, any kind of baked good, right? The butter is delicious as butter, right? I don't bake with that butter, but that butter is great on bread and stuff like that. you have a kitchen, it's pretty easy to make. You've got to remember when you're doing it, um, you want to uh, coat the, um, you want to coat the, put plastic wrap around the bowl so that you, um, put plastic wrap around the bowl because it's going to spatter,
+
+[23:20] right, as it goes and use the, um, use
+
+[23:24] the, uh, the cake mixing thing and not the balloon. The balloon is going to become a kind of a thing, don't I use that? Maybe I use it blue. I think I use the cake because I think the balloon gets all nasty when the butter breaks and when it breaks and turns into a big ball.
+
+[23:36] Anyway, maybe I can't remember. It's been a while. Try both. They should both work. Do it chill that way. Another thing to do is whipped cream. Hello? Whipped cream is so freaking delicious. Who doesn't like whipped cream? Stas, you like it? Yeah. She's like, yeah, what am I? I'm not I'm not Satan. I know some people don't like whipped cream on things. Here's some things of whipped cream. Like whipped cream on ice cream, good. People say, oh, no, it's like, it's like cream on cream. Yeah, good. You know what I mean? Whipped cream on cake, good, whipped cream on. I don't put whipped cream on my breakfast items. Oh, like pancakes? I don't. Yeah. It's not bad. I just don't do it I like whipped cream on cookies though. At nighttime. I like whipped cream on donuts at nighttime. Not in the morning. I like whipped cream on a spoon. I like whipped cream, basically. Dave Arnold's new children's book. In any format. Now listen, listen, listen, people, listen, if you're
+
+[24:34] gonna make whipped cream at home, the easiest way to do it is like spike it with some sugar, that's
+
+[24:38] gonna make it stay stable longer and put it in the EC canister under pressurization, and it lasts a long time in the EC thing, if you have a whipped cream siphon. And that's the easiest way to keep whipped cream around so it doesn't spoil. You don't have to re whip it all the time because if you whip it and put it in a bowl. It doesn't last very long. Now, another thing, there are many different kinds of cream. You should look at the cream you're purchasing, okay? So the, uh, there, The best tasting cream by far is just regular pasteurized cream, but it's actually increasingly
+
+[25:10] difficult. I mean, like, well, I'm sure on pasteurized cream is the best, right? But of the stuff that you can normally buy, standard pasteurized cream
+
+[25:16] is, um, the is the best tasting. But at least in the court variety, which is the way that I buy stuff all the time. You can't really get it because it doesn't last as long. Back, you know, if you work food service, you can get that kind and you go through it so it doesn't spoil. But when you're buying, and I forgot, I didn't look at the small containers, but if you buy the
+
+[25:36] quart sizes of cream, fresh cream. They're high temperature pasteurized. Like, they're like ultra high temperature pasturized cream, and they should last a month. I looked it up. My Dropbox didn't update, so it didn't come through, but I think that those things will last a month, but now you have to go through a whole court in a month instead of
+
+[25:54] just, what do you say, half pint or something like that? Yeah. Uh, keep it in the back of your of your fridge and it should go on. Now here's another thing. Uh, you should start using cream in uh, soups. That is delicious. Yeah, that's good. Cream soups. And then people could be like, you're cooking with so much cream. be like, shut up. You're eating a whole thing of broccoli. It's a little cream in it. suck it up, right or wrong. Totally. totally right. And then here's another fact. So there's a lot of argumentation, argumentation, argument. There's a lot of argument. See, I hate that. It's like I don't like the word utilize either. It's like a bunch of extra syllables. You know what a good way to say utilize this? Use, use, use. Anyway. Jack, what are your feelings on that? you have any feelings? On the used utilized debate? Yeah, he'll go with you. You go use. Yeah. Like Miley Carpenter, who runs the Food Network magazine and is like, you know, the editor in the family, other than my wife who edits my books, obviously. My book, uh, is, uh, the whole family
+
+[26:49] hates, uh, the word utilized because it's just, it's, it has no use. The word utilized has no use over the word use. Unless is there some, is there some sort of like, unless you literally mean, I am taking something that was not a tool and turning it into a tool.
+
+[27:07] And technically, it has been... Yeah, that is a good use for the word. When does that come up? I'm utilizing my knowledge. No, you're using it. Anyway. Yeah, that was a tool. tool. No, no, no. How would you use it in tool? I wouldn't. I mean, what would mean? Utilize a stick? I use a tool. I use a stick to beat you over the head. Boom. Beyonce uses a baseball bat to smash up that car. See, they didn't utilize a baseball bat. weak. Week. Another one. anyway, I'm not going to get later on, we can go into magazine editors,
+
+[27:40] uh, grammatical uh, pet peeves, because they're kind of interesting. Using 2 from and things that aren't arranged, hates that. Hates that. They have everything from chickens to French fries. And you're like, excuse me, not a range. Like, what continuum has chicken on one side and French fries on the other. It makes no freaking sense. Yeah, they don't have everything anyway. voice, of course. Well, that's how, you know, anyway. So stay away from those sorts of stay away from those sorts of statements. Why are we getting into this? What we talking about? Now, cream. We're talking about whipped cream. The problem with cream is, is that cream that you buy in the store, aside from whether how it's pasteurized, typically heavy cream, they know you're not going to use it very
+
+[28:21] long, and they know you're going to use it for a lot of different things. They stabilize typically the hell out of it. So look at the box of cream on the side. And the stabilizers they use in the cream. will radically change whether or not, and here's the important thing for you in particular for what you're doing. Whether or not the cream is 100% free sauce stable. So cream, as it comes out of, well, after it separates, but cream, as is given by the cow, right? If you freeze it and then thaw it, the ice crystals, and so Harold McGee has a very good section on this on food and cooking, where the as it freezes, the butterfat will form kind of sharp butterfat crystals, the ice will water will form ice
+
+[29:04] crystals. These will mess with the fat globules. What are your thoughts on the word globby? Hate, hate, globulo. The labule, the spurs. Right? Glabules and spores. There's like Nastasia, like, this is like her skin is creeping. If you want Nastasia to have nightmares. Send her pictures of like leaf fungi. Oh, don't do that. Yeah. Well, I'm not saying that viewers here, listeners don't want you to have nightmares. They're not going to do that to you. Do it, do it. Do you also have a whole phobia? There's, you know, people who like can't look at like lotus roots, for example, because like the grid of holes. You have that problem? Really? Is it ever since you hit that pothole in Brooklyn? like tripe, for example, also things that are. Yeah, the problem with Swiss cheese? The problem with, ooh, Swiss cheese? No, it's Swiss, so you like it. That's so true. Swiss cheese is a little better. Yeah? Yeah. Because it's more like a crater. Yeah. Because you can see the bottom of the hole. Itchy. Makes you itchy? Yeah, that's the thing. People have this whole phobia, they get all itchy when they see all these holes. This is a real thing? Yeah, I guess so. I heard it for it? I'm going to look it up. Let's see Where the hell does that come from? Does it come from watching too much? I don't know, shy of the blood. pronunciation here. Yeah, tripophobia. Tripophobia? Like you're gonna trip into the TRYP. Oh, phobia. Oh, really? Could be tripe. don't know My problem my problem with tripe is is like, it's delicious, but that smell is so indicative of like slaughterhouse smell. You know what I mean? Anyway, until you totally process it. whatever. Back to cream. By the way, I love that we're talking about cream after I said cream, you know,
+
+[30:45] prints. Get on top, cream. Yeah, yeah. Boogie bop. Yeah. Peter always has to take it inappropriate place. as a family-free can show. how many times I have to say this. Hey Peter. I got something for you that you'll appreciate coming up in a 2nd here. All right, Jose. All right, so cream. So listen. So what happens when you freeze cream that hasn't been treated. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, you can keep talking, Dave. I love it. I love it. We are more scattered than even normal. on today's show. Dave is now the Dizza. Oh, you're the worst. That way you can't get sued. Oh, is that the amount you can do without getting sued? Yeah. That's what I just said. don't know. See, he has made that up. You don't know if we're going to get seen. All right. I just started cranking into it. Anyway, whatever. I was gonna try to explain cream at that point. But look. So if you don't add any stabilizers or whatnot, the as I said, the butterfat will form little thingamajugers that ruin the fat
+
+[31:49] globules and the ice crystals will do the same because they're sharp. And you can read about this, McGee's on food and cooking. And when you thaw the cream back out, probably won't break, but it won't have a lot of the same properties.
+
+[32:03] I don't know about the whipping. I never tested, but I know that that kind of cream is not going to be as heat stable as it was before, so you're going to get a lot of fat separation, right? Um, by the way, uh, well, I'll finish before. But the, um, but luckily,
+
+[32:19] unluckily for some people, luckily probably for you, most creams that you buy, again, I haven't looked at the small containers, but the large containers, the quartz, are heavily stabilized, right?
+
+[32:29] So I looked up 2 different ones on the web. I looked up or I don't have it in front of me, but so do it from memory, organic, horizon brand.
+
+[32:37] There's is stabilized with geland gum, right? And so what Jeland gum does is, is they're probably forming a very light, um, a very light fluid gel with it to keep
+
+[32:47] it uh, stabilized, but I'm, I haven't tested that one for free sauce stability, but, um, that might
+
+[32:54] increase the freestyle stability. It depends a lot, depends on which geland they're using and like, and what ratio they're using, because they don't say what kind of geland they're using, whether they're using high acyl, low high or low acyl geland. But then I looked at Lando Lakes, Lando Lakes, cream, and Lando Lakes, cream has a shotgun spray, stuff in it to stabilize it. So, it's got polysorbate 80, which is an emulsifier.
+
+[33:17] It's got mono and diglycerides, which is another multiplier monitor glycerides. I used to use it more. I haven't used it in a long time. It's, uh, so yeah, triglyceride is a fat, right? So it's a, you know, it's got 3 fatty acids on a glycerin thing. And if you break, and it's obviously it's lipophilic. it likes oil because that is a fat. It's an oil. If you break off, one of those fatty acids, right? Now you have a little bit of a water loving portion on where the fatty acid was attached to the
+
+[33:44] backbone, and that would be a diaglas ride. break off 2 fatty acids and you have 2 of those water liking areas. And so you get this, what's called amphophilic, molecule, monodiglyceride that can do some emulsifying. It is very heavily balanced in the favor of fat, though. So you have to dissolve monoondiglycerides and fat. And you could do all sorts of fun stuff with it like thickened fats or make fat foams or all kinds of other things. But anyway, so it's got monoondiglycerides in it, which is going to increase, it's probably going to increase its whipping ability, the cream, probably going to help it on the freeze thaw.
+
+[34:13] Um, I don't know if the polysorbate 80 is helping on the freestyle or not. I'm assuming it is. It's another emulsifier. I don't really know as much about the functionality of poly sorbet 80. because I've never used it as a standalone ingredient. Uh, but lastly, and not leastly, it has uh, Carraginen in it, and Carraginen, uh, you know, in these levels,
+
+[34:32] like, it performs a stabilization, um, similar to what Jeland's performing in the other thing. Long story short is with that, poop spray of stabilizers in it. I bet you you can freeze and thaw that land o lakes cream, uh, and use it without without issue. The issue, without issue, and then I say there's an issue. The problem is it takes a long time typically to thaw these things out. You want to exclude error. So it depends on how your freezer works. But like a lot of times, even with liquids, I'll put liquids in freezer
+
+[35:03] zippies, and then I'll get the air out with the zippy, and I'll throw the zippies in because they freeze very quickly. And it's, have you noticed Stas recently that, um, some ziplocs are crappy? I just noticed this recently, like, no, no, on, honest to God, Ziplocs, I've had a couple
+
+[35:21] side seals go bad on me. Remember, were those brand ziplocs that time that we did the, uh, the, um, blender drinks with the, uh, and remember we got, oh, they
+
+[35:32] weren't. they were off brand. where they, I've been having problems is that the double steel on the top, you turn it on the side and it forms a little spout and it pours a little bit of liquid out of that top.
+
+[35:43] So always invert your ziplocs after you seal them to make sure that you don't have a good seal. Anyway, exclude the air. Ziploc, label, they freeze quickly that way, and they thaw very quickly that way. So you can just put it in cold water running in the sink and thaw it out in a couple of minutes because if you just take a quart of cream and put it in your fridge to try and thaw
+
+[36:01] it, good freaking luck. You know what I mean? It going to take forever. Another thing I've noticed is that when you're thawing, um, when you're using, um, uh,
+
+[36:10] milk, or I have this situation where I put milk that was already expired in a fridge, closed the fridge, went back a week
+
+[36:17] later, and it was fine because the fridge hadn't opened or closed at all. So if you can keep your milk and dairy in the absolute coldest part of your fridge so that it's not going through a lot of temperature fluctuations, it will last a
+
+[36:28] lot, lot, lot longer. That's another point. Um, I had another point on cream, but I don't know. Should we go to a break? Maybe I can think about it. Yeah, and then I got a question for Peter that he can mull over the break. Antoine wants to know if they have anything regarding sustainability at
+
+[36:44] MoFat, and with that, we'll be right back. Not that soft.
+
+[36:54] Today's program is proudly brought to you by Whole Foods Market, America's healthiest grocery store with more than 400 locations throughout the United States. Download the Whole Foods Market app on your smartphone for recipes, sales, information, and digital coupons, or visit Whole Foods Market.com to find a store closest to you.
+
+[37:21] All right, before we come back on another thank you to Christopher Tompkins Tinch, who donated on behalf of cooking issues, there are a bunch more donations that came
+
+[37:33] in, I got to go through the backlog, but really appreciate that, everybody. And we're back. All right, so Dave is right now racing to see how fast he can eat a ice cream sandwich. Anyway, so we had a question about MoFAD and sustainability, and yes, I mean, in short, sustainability is right at the heart of what we're trying to do at
+
+[37:58] MoFAD. And I think the big challenge for us is that so far we've only been able to take on one exhibition at a
+
+[38:04] time, and the 1st thing we did was the puffing gun exhibit, which traveled around and looked at the story of breakfast cereal, and the exhibition we have up now is on the flavor industry.
+
+[38:14] And so we've really only been able, and the way we approach things is we like to do, take on really narrow stories and do a deep dive. And so we haven't had a chance yet to do an exhibition that looks at sustainability in a big way, but we've been taking it on in our
+
+[38:27] programs. And so we've done programs. We did something with slow food, for example, where we looked at some endangered food species and highlighted them. And
+
+[38:35] so yeah, I mean, that's stuff that's all incredibly important for us, and that's going to come up in
+
+[38:40] exhibition very soon. Peter, you got so political there. I like it. Yeah, it was good. I mean, no, it's serious. It's really serious. No, Antoine. So Antoine Dave, and then maybe we could take this later, but Antoine elaborated and he's like, oh, can the
+
+[38:52] Dave and the crew in the chat room comment on interesting innovations and sustainability for avoiding food waste,
+
+[38:57] upcycling, and repurposing, like making shrubs out of spent fruit or produce? What do you mean shrub? Oh, shrubs. I'm like, plants? What are you talking about? Like, shrubs, like, like, uh, drinks. Yeah. Oh, speaking of shrubs. Another thing you can do with cream. Just came up with a recipe last week for stabilized cream syrup to use in cocktails like
+
+[39:20] grasshoppers where it doesn't break no matter what you do to it. So you just add sugar to the cream. Not a full simple syrup. I got to get the ratios. I calculated it at the bar, but you sugar it. I think it was like 30% by weight or something. I gotta go look it up. And then you add a little acid to pre-break the milk proteins a little bit. It thickens quite a bit, but it is stable as the day is long in a drink and it's good. We're going to be putting that. cream issues. cream issues. Dave Arnold. creaming issues. Creaming is not a gross word. It's a technical freak and dairy term. Jerk. All right, offensive. Jerk. So how quickly do you eat that ice cream sandwich? So 1st of all, the question is, how how fast, how quickly can I eat a milk cult
+
+[40:04] DC ice cream sandwich while still enjoying it and making fun of Peter while he's talking on the
+
+[40:10] microphone? And the answer is 45 seconds. So I can I can eat one in 45 seconds, still enjoy it. So I'm not like pushing it into my face at the fastest rate possible and make fun of Peter while he's talking in 45 seconds. Very impressive. I mean, a shadow, a shadow of my former self. Shadow. Were you there at the French culinary hot dog eating contest? They had a hot dog eating contest. And, uh... And at the time, I was
+
+[40:40] like, smaller even than I know. He did it in a Lucha Libre. Yeah, El Santo. Yeah. But I had to, I had like, like, like rocky style. I had to cut the mouth hole because the mouth hole wasn't big enough to shove the hot dogs in. So I had to cut the corners of the mouth hole. And like, all these big guys were like, yeah, whatever. I hosed them. I like just ripped them up. I went full Kobayashi. You know what I mean? The squeeze and dunk. Squeeze dunk breaks smash into face. I remember you telling me about in high school how you used to drink whole 2 liters of soda at the supermarket to
+
+[41:12] build just hand the bottle back and get your deposit money. I'm cheap. How recently was that? I was in high school, man. I had no money. So like, you know, you were, I was at a summer program and like, you know, the, the $50 I had was the $50 I had. You know what I mean? And so like, you know, after, and I don't drink flat water, it's disgusting. I think I mentioned this. At the time I was drinking diet soda. So I didn't want to pay them their deposit. So I handed them the money. They took the deposit. I drank the entire 2 liter in front of them, put it back down onto the counter and got my money back. Wow. because that's how cheap I am. But I can't imagine you actually enjoyed the entire 2 liters. That's where you're wrong. I am the utility monster. I enjoy. I enjoy down to the bitter end. I told you, well, you weren't here. But they, you know, they, certain things, I've never like, I can't have another, like, I can have, I won't eat another ice cream sandwich now because it's, like, I'm older
+
+[42:10] now and it's gross, and I've had 2 already, but, uh, It's not, I'm not, not eating the next one because I wouldn't enjoy it. You know what I mean? Thank you, by the way, to milk cult DC for the sandwiches. Nastasia has the ice cream ice cream. don't like it very much. Why? Because it tastes like lemongrass. Oh, and you hate... She hates lemongrass. Tastes like Asian. Well, for those of you that don't know, Peter Kim is of the Asian persuasion. like him. Also, I'm having a slight breakdown right now. What do you mean? Because I looked up tripophobia. And the 1st thing that comes up is just freaking photos and like inside right now. Oh my god, I can tell you're actually like scratching yourself. Oh, she is, she is, I'm not. She is scratching herself. Ooh, it's not a good Google search, I will say. Not doing well. Please don't send Nastasia Lopez. Oh my god, yeah. having a visible reaction to it. That's crazy. I mean it's a rough search. I don't know why you did that to yourself I wanted to see what remedies there were. And then, of course, the 1st thing was like, boom. Oh, well, so the remedy apparently is not total immersion. Yeah. Say, here's the remedy. Boom. All right, yikes. So, uh, we had this in from uh, John Vermilen, uh, about, Actually, we have an invite to go visit. He has a pasta factory. We didn't mention the name of it. I looked it up, but I'm not going to mention it, because he didn't mention it, maybe he doesn't want me to mention it. They're like, they do a lot of contract work. They make lots of funny shapes. They make like the little pizza, pizza wedge shapes. What are your thoughts on funny shaped pasta? I don't like it very much What about for kids, though? It's bad. It's bad. All regular pasta shapes are funny shapes, though. Like, what are your feelings on pre-stranglers? Stroats of bread. I like those. Do you like it because it contains the word strangle or do you actually like the texture? No, I like the texture. Yeah? But you think the funny shapes are not texturally involved. They're just they're just pictures. Yeah, and they usually break, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's because people overcook them. You know what else I saw? Because they're selling to commercial establishments. One of the things they sell is heavy wall pasta for retort applications. And I was like, because we've had actually people wonder about like, you know, how to put pasta into soups and stuff here. And it's like, well, the pros, I guess, buy
+
+[44:28] heavy walled pasta for retort applications. So we said, use like oars. Are you getting better? Yeah. You recovering? I think I'm tryptophobic now after looking at that stuff. That's bad. Nastasia? Yeah, no reaction too? Really? Nastasia is like like some sort of chipmunk like wiping her face off. As though there's a hole on her face that she can wipe off. Yeah, this is crazy. I've never seen such a reaction before. so gross to me and I can't move. I actually I actually feel bad for Nastasia now. And I never... 1st on the show. What about Ray? I actually yeah. Wow. As you know, it's bad if I feel bad. I've been catching up on some cooking issue shows. In the January 26 show, you mentioned a pest control fumigant. What about that word? Fine. You're like, with what I'm worried about in my head, too. Yeah. Um, if you may get used for food manufacturing facilities, it's now banned because of ozone concerns, you're probably thinking of
+
+[45:27] methyl bromide. Yes, I am. Our pasta plant in Fairlawn, New Jersey, now uses profume when we fumigate, though it's unfortunately not as effective as methyl
+
+[45:37] bromide. Our nemesis is typical, this is, remember, it was in a result because someone was trying to cure a bunch of hams in their
+
+[45:42] house, and I was worried about mites for them. Uh, not as effective as methyl bromide. Our nemesis is typically the red flower beetle. I hate those mothers. You ever had, um, if you buy, have I discussed this before? If you buy certain kinds of like small run organic flowers or like specialty flowers, like chapati flour, a lot of
+
+[46:02] times, the facilities aren't as like locked down as like the big milling concerns
+
+[46:09] are. And so you can get, uh, like eggs from things like that, and then they will later get infested, which is why I freeze the hell out of all those flowers.
+
+[46:17] You freeze those flowers, Peter? No, I never thought about that. I would. Yeah. Or like if you bring spices from another country, you should freeze those suckers. You know what I mean? If you're going to store them for a long period of time because who the hell knows what's going to pop out. you know, who knows? Maybe you could bring the next Asian longhorn beetle with you. No, don't do that. I wonder whether that's ever happened. Usually they come like pests like that come in on. I guess it has happened. Usually they come in on things like crates and whatnot. Anyway, because like spices aren't on the list of no brains, right? Well, yeah, but then anything brought in. Well, actually, it's interesting. Yeah, I guess not. Yeah. But stuff running commercially, it all gets... Our nemesis typically the red flower beetle and profume just doesn't kill the eggs very well, so you have to just increase all your other pest management work, which is the right thing to be doing anyway, of course.
+
+[47:08] Hope this is helpful. Uh, fan of your work and great to see MoFan on such a rule. And this is, a side note, Peter Kim and I actually had a good chat about pasta and noodles or Italian American food history
+
+[47:18] as a potential museum topic. Do you remember side conversation? Yes, of course, John. I had been emailing with them. I would like to go see his factor. Yeah, I told him we'd try to come out. He's in Philadelphia? No, Jersey. I don't know where Fairlawn is. It's in Jersey. All right. So a couple of updates. I fired, I, by the way, I told you last week, I think I told you that I brought this chicken gun into the city, but then wasn't allowed to fire it in the city, this chicken cannon that I
+
+[47:43] built. I brought it out to back to Connecticut, took it back together, fired another chicken because Dax wanted to see it shoot. 250 mile an hour. I launched it into the forest. It hit a tree, hit the top of a tree, and was still going up when at the 300 foot mark when it hit that tree. crazy man. What's a chicken gun? We already went through. I'm not going to go through the game. I just, you know, thought I'd give people an update on it. Now, what was the question we had about sustainability and shrubs and whatnot? Oh, like repurposing old fruit? Is that what he said? Old fruit. Now you sound like an English dude. Old fruit? spent fruit and produce, you know. Yeah, food waste, upcycling, repurposing. Like, obviously, anyone at anyone who is paying a lot,
+
+[48:29] like, in a commercial application, even at home, you should, but in a commercial application, especially, you see a lot of
+
+[48:34] waste, and it bothers you, right? So you have certain things you just, you have too much of and there's never going to be enough use for it. Like, you know, we have so many lemon and lime and grapefruit peels
+
+[48:47] that like, unless we literally opened another business making marmalades and weird things like that.
+
+[48:53] It, not even the right stuff in marmalade, you'd have a tough time. But I always enjoy finding uses for things. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's, it's a responsible. It's responsible to your restaurant or yourself because you throw away a lot of money and it's
+
+[49:12] responsible. It respects the ingredient because you're getting the maximum amount of use out of it. And it's just responsible all the way around. And I think it's a really good mental exercise as well to try to reduce the amount of waste that you have. Now, there's various ways you can do this. One is to take all of the scraps and just cook something disgusting and force your employees to eat it. And that's the what, like, used to be like the old family meal style. Remember, uh, uh, Alex Guanachelli once told me that when she was working at, you know, some like 2 star or whatever to like 3 star Michelin, I don't know, in uh, France, what they would do is they would just collect up the raft from clarification, like all of
+
+[49:50] the, like the spent lean ground meat and spent egg whites and like foam and gunk and just serve that up.
+
+[49:58] Here's your family meal. Enjoy. Enjoy the raft. Stas would be like, crap on this. Like, imagine Styles, what would you do if they, like, you'd be like... I hate the raft. Really? Yeah? Wow. Hate the raft. Anyway, so like that's one way to reuse things is just shaftier, shaftier friends and family. Um, but there's a lot of like other, obviously, like certain things can be composted, any vegetable peelings can be used to make stocks, which can then be frozen on fruits. I mean, um, when we have leftover juice, we try to reuse it for cordials, when we have peels, it's a little harder. Like I made a batch of grapefruit bitters once out of a bunch of spent grapefruit peels and it was great, but I made a lifetime supply out of like one day's
+
+[50:48] grapefruits. You know what I mean? So it's hard to figure out 100% use for all that because a lot of times you'll need a lot
+
+[50:56] more, especially in a bar, right? So when you're ordering meat, It's much more responsible to design your menu such that you use up the right amount of each thing, but when you have a bar, it's hard to say, well, I'm going to have a bar
+
+[51:10] now, and so you're going to have 35% peel-based things, right? So you're going to have, it's like, you know, half oleosacram, no,
+
+[51:17] oleosacram is great, but we don't go through enough of it and people demand more fresh lemon juice drinks. And so I can't really, Oh, you know what? I probably could, if I had more cojones, I could probably figure it out, right? It's just a matter of not having the will or the cojones to do it. Right? Well, that's an interesting idea. It's hard. I think it's difficult in a bar with things like spent fruit. Luckily that stuff's typically not as expensive. And when I am using really expensive materials like strawberries or
+
+[51:48] like there's a new drink on the menu that Felipe made with Nopales. Did you have that? Did you like that? Rum and Nopalis. It was good. Things like that, we typically get very, very high yields because we're using a centrifuge,
+
+[51:57] so very little waste, which is one of the reasons I like the centrifuge, and which is why
+
+[52:02] Anastasia and I are going to start selling more centrifuge. So Stas, do you have a recipe picked out that you're going to make for next week? I think I'm going to do the chili or I'll do this low cooked pork and sauerkraut. Okay, Nastasia's gonna come back with her dump meal version of slow cooked port and sauerkraut. Shout out to Milk Cult. Thanks, Peter Kim, for coming on to the radio program. We'll see you next. Oh, next week is Rangum. We got Rangum from Catching Fire, how Learning to Cook
+
+[52:31] Made Us Human. I think that's the exact title of the book. We have to look it up. Call in your questions about how cooking made us human next week on to cooking issues.
+
+[52:44] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[52:54] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:13] Thanks for listening.
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+[3:47] Today's program is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. For more information, visit Whole Foods Market.com. I'm Laura Stanley, host of Inside School Food. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[4:17] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Your Shoes coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, 1250 from
+
+[4:27] Rover's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. How you doing, Jack? We got Jack in the studio today. Oh, I'm good. That was real energy right there. You like the Brooklyn? No, you really went in. You know why? It's because I took a horse ride over the weekend at
+
+[4:44] Gettysburg along the battlefield and so I got the Wow. Horse ride inspired Brooklyn. Yeah. Yep. You know, a lot of people used to ride horses here. you know that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we have Stas on the phone too. Okay, so we do not have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez live in the studio today because she is out in Chicago. Uh, she's not. I was about to lie and say she's covering the James Beard Awards for cooking issues, but that's just a straight up lie. Right? We lost somebody. I hope we didn't lose either people. Anyway, I don't know if we do we have an extra line for people to call in or we're done. Yeah, we got 3 lines. All right, so the big special guest we have on air today is Richard
+
+[5:28] Rangon. Richard Rangham is the, uh, let me get this uh, right here. The Ruth B. Moore professor of biological anthropology at Harvard. And he wrote a kind of a book that I think was published in about 2010, I think, but I think it's remained influential, and I think it's more
+
+[5:49] interesting actually to have him on, you know, 6 years after it's been published so that we can see kind of what the impact has been and how it's how the theory is in it, have stayed, you know, stayed the test over time. The book is called Catching Fire, how Cooking Made Him, Made Us Human. Uh, and do we, uh, Professor Arangum. You on the phone? Ah, hi, good to speak with you. Good to speak with you. Um, so, by the way, I don't know whether, like, how do you, how do you, do you want to give the elevator pitch for what the book's about for those people that don't already have
+
+[6:20] it, or do you want me to, to mutilate it for you, or what do you want to do? Something's going on with the phone lines. Is that Professor Ragam's phone that's cutting out? Yeah. Both of the lines just cut out, so we'll have to have them call right back. All right, so listen, while we're waiting while we're waiting for him to call back, I'll just catch a few questions that we had in advance.
+
+[6:39] Andrew is another tandor question. Andrew wrote in. Hello. I just started listening to the show and I love it. I thought I'd write in a question. I hope this is the right spot. I've decided it's time I bring a tandor into my life. Good call. The internet is a wash with videos of courageous DIWires, building set ovens in their backyards. I have little DIY experience, but I'm not a half wit and can follow directions. What do you think? Buy or build? Any tips or thoughts for a rookie learning to feast on tika and nan? Cheers, Andrew. Listen, dude, if you don't like DIY stuff out, the only reason to build a tandor is because you really, really, really, really, really want to build a tandor, right? If you'd rather just, and you also like how much value does your time,
+
+[7:16] uh, you know, have, like I bought mine and I am an avid DIYer just because, um, I think in general, it's better the 1st time you use a piece of
+
+[7:24] equipment. If you had been grown, if you'd grown up and used tandors your whole life, and you knew what the geometry was, and you knew how it was supposed to work, and you roughly knew what mass it was supposed to be, and you roughly knew what the, you know, the competition of the clay was, and how it was reinforced, and how it was used over time,
+
+[7:39] and, you know, kind of you knew all of those factors. Then I'd say, you know what? Build one, a lot of fun. But in absence of that, if you haven't actually used one before, probably a good idea to just get one from the
+
+[7:49] professionals, the one I have, and they should pay me because I sent so many people to them. you know, it's www.tandors.com. It's Gulati International, and they're in New Jersey. I was lucky enough. I live close enough. I was able to go get one. But if you don't, if you're not that lucky, they will ship it, but I think the shipping is expensive because they're clay and
+
+[8:09] they really want you to ship them by truck carriers. So um, so there you have it. And Jack, are we back here? Yeah, we're back. We're back. We're back. All right. I will get to the 2nd question before the end of the show. It's about Bazbuzza, the semolina cake. Anyway. Okay, so Professor, we got Stas. We got you on the phone too? Hi, Richard Rangam here. Proessor Rang. Oh, good, good, good. Okay, now, do you want to give the elevator pitch, or do you want me to give the elevator pitch, and then you'll say what 80 I am, or how do you want to do it? You should give the elevator pitch. All right, so, so, basically, in, here's what I, what I got out of it. So the question, the question is this. How is it or why is it that human beings have evolved in
+
+[8:56] in a very kind of particular way? Why do we have big, very energetically expensive brains to run? Why is our digestive system short? Why is our jaw muscles puny? Why are relatively puny to other things like great apes? Why, why is it that our teeth are structured, the way there are all these kinds of things? Why are we relatively erect? Why are we relatively hairless? Why can't we climb very well? And if you, if the question is, is it these, these kinds of things started happening a long, long time ago, what caused those things to happen? And the kind of simplest explanation from an Occam's razor standpoint isn't any one of the normal kind of things have been posited, like tool use or any of these other
+
+[9:38] things? Really, the most simple Occam's razor thing is cooking. Cooking can accomplish all of those things because if you cook foods, all of a sudden they are much easier to chew, you don't have to chew as long, it takes a lot less
+
+[9:53] time, and you get a lot more actual caloric value energy out of the foods once they're cooked versus raw. Basically right, professor? Absolutely fantastic job, Dave. Yeah. No, that's really terrific. And so what it comes down to is this. What we know about humans is that you cannot live on raw food in the wild. You know, if you're a raw foodist, then you can survive on your
+
+[10:19] salads and your smoothies and so on, in an urban environment in which you can take the highest quality food that you can
+
+[10:26] find and you can blend it and so on. But it's not good enough in the wild. That's what we now realize from the last few years. So humans are unlike every other species, we are adapted to eating our food
+
+[10:39] cooked. We absolutely need to. So that's 11 big point. And then the other big point is, well, okay, if that's true, how long has it been true? Is it 50,000 years ago? Is it 5000 years ago? Is it half a 1000000 years ago? And actually, I think that there's a pretty easy answer to this, which is that it's been true as long as we have bodies like the bodies that we have nowadays. And when do we get those bodies, everybody knows. It was just decided 2 million years ago. Now, one of the questions I have is hit it right at the beginning, and it's, it's, in the, in the book, and here's the kind, and maybe there's been a lot of research since 2010. So one of the main arguments that critics have is there is no evidence of fire,
+
+[11:29] remote, like cooking fire, you know, non- non-happenstance fire. Um, anywhere near that long ago. Your counter argument in the book is mostly, well, it's the easiest explanation, and therefore should be accepted until an easier explanation is given. Is that still your, A, am I putting your position correctly? And B, has that changed over the past 6 years? Yeah, no that's great. So, yeah, there's, um, uh, no one can say yet that, uh,
+
+[12:01] there is definitely control of fire by humans going all the way back to when I am predicting it, uh,
+
+[12:08] at 2000000 years ago. But since the book was published, we have had fire, the date of control of fire being pushed nicely
+
+[12:19] back. So we've now got a couple of places at 800,000 years ago, a place that a 1000000 years
+
+[12:27] ago. This is, you know, quite a lot more than the 250,000 years ago that people have traditionally
+
+[12:34] thought. And I'm feeling very excited about reports that I've been hearing about some evidence that is going to take the evidence for the controller fire back to very close to when I think
+
+[12:48] it will eventually be shown. And so that that 800,000 year old one is a fairly accepted site? Yes, it is. That one is in Israel. And then there's another one, which has just been published in Spain, just about the same time. And then there's a 1000000 year one in South Africa. And let me, and so this is, this is also something I don't understand. curious, is um, what is the difference between a 250,000 year old site that has been easily identified for a long time as having control of fire and a site that's a 1000000
+
+[13:26] years uh, a 1000000 years ago? What's the difference in technology or placement or how the sites are preserved such that it makes it more difficult to trace it back. Like, why is there that line? I mean, basically, over these immense periods of time that we're talking about, then the further back you go, then the more chance there is that everything has been disturbed to the point that you're
+
+[13:50] not going to be able to find what you're looking for. I mean, here's one measure of the way in which it's disturbed. The half life of a cave, as to say, the duration that a cave is going to
+
+[14:03] exist, is something around a quarter of a 1000000 years. So that most caves have gone after that time, because of erosion of the cave rock, that sort of thing. So, there's all sorts of difficulties, the further back you go, and they, in the end, the way that people are finding evidence for the control of fire in the very early times, like a million years ago, is um,
+
+[14:28] uh, more from um, Microscopic grains of charcoal that uh, cannot be explained on the basis of anything else other than humans being responsible for making fire.
+
+[14:41] Would the difference be on the microscopic level between, say, a lightning strike and human fire? Well, I mean, natural fires can produce charcoal, of course. But they tend to produce charcoal that ends up with smaller grains than human-made fire. That's been shown in actualistic studies. But the real thing that characterizes the evidence for the use of fire by humans at a 1000000 years ago in South Africa is the fact that there is a very ancient cave, it's
+
+[15:21] fact, it's really the only cave that has been found in that date, and deep in the cave. 30 meters in. So what was that? 100 feet in. Uh, you have uh, lots of buried charcoal and uh, people say there's no way that you could have had any natural process that brought in the
+
+[15:45] fuel. It's not in the sticks, and the grasses, and that sort of thing that were being burned. So it had to be humans. Right, so it's not like a natural, it's not like West Virginia where we have all these coal things that catch on fire once in a while. This is not a coal bearing cave or something like this. Right, exactly. But you have to be very careful. You know, there's lots of places where people have found some evidence of burning associated with
+
+[16:07] humans way back, 1500000, 1600000 years ago, but there's always
+
+[16:14] the possibility that it was a tree burning from a lightning strike or some other natural fire.
+
+[16:20] So that's why you have to be so cautious. Right. So that's the, the, the, the 1st uh, you know, thing I think that a lot of people bring up. And the, the 2nd one, I'm curious whether there's been more research. And this is the core really, and I was laughing. Uh, actually, uh, I listened to it when I'm, when I was driving the car. I got it on Audible. And I was laughing out loud with the parts about the raw diet because it's been, it's been exactly my experience. I did the raw diet. I lost a bet and had to do the raw diet for a week. And I'll tell you, uh, I, you know, I didn't need any uh, scientific study to show that I wasn't absorbing my uh, calories. Just ask my toilet. You know, it was like, it's obviously the stuff run straight through you. Um, you know, it's, uh, I mean, to me, it's fairly
+
+[17:06] obvious, and you're eating a preposterous amount of, of, uh, of, and this is like, as you say, you know, shopping in modern supermarkets and, you know, modern, having, you know, I have a very
+
+[17:16] expensive, high-speed blender, um, and taking a lot of times to soak things, et cetera, et
+
+[17:22] cetera. Right. I mean, using agricultural foods. And so, of course, you know, the quality of foods that
+
+[17:29] were produced in on farms is far higher, simply from the point of view of producing
+
+[17:35] energy, than what you get in the wild. So, you know, the fruits in the area that I work on, study chimpanzees in Uganda, the average fruit has about as much sugar as a carrot. and far less than an apple or an orange and so on. So, the raw food is have all these advantages that you mentioned, including eating domesticated
+
+[17:58] foods. Um, and uh, yes, there's quite a lot of extra work that's now been done on this,
+
+[18:05] and um, so uh, since the book was published, we've got uh, very nice data showing that uh, if you uh, feed mice on uh, cooked uh, tubers
+
+[18:18] or, or on cooked meat, or on cooked peanuts, then uh, they will get more energy
+
+[18:24] than eating raw. And as you say, I mean, anybody who's tried a raw food diet knows this, but it's nice to be able to work out the mechanisms. Right. And I think another thing that, I don't know whether a lot of people bring it up when they talk to you about the book, but that, another thing I thought was very interesting, and I didn't, you know, you expect to hear
+
+[18:44] it in nutrition discussions, and you never do. Never. In your book is basically a huge indictment of the way we, and I don't think you even explicitly bring it out this way, but a huge indictment of the way nutritional labels are printed.
+
+[18:58] Um, because a calorie is clearly not a calorie is clearly not a
+
+[19:02] calorie, it depends on the structure of it, how much it's cooked, how it's delivered to you, how much you chew, et cetera, et cetera.
+
+[19:09] What are your, do you have any more current thoughts in that? Are you even interested in that? Or is it just not part of your field of study? Um, no, I mean, I remain interested. It was an epilogue in the book, calling for a more rational approach to food labeling, and Rachel comedy, and I, we ran a session at the American Association for Advancement of Science, 3 or 4 years ago, or we brought together a number of people to reflect on the
+
+[19:38] fact that, as you say, it's very clear to all sorts of people, even though it's not very often talked about, that the food labeling system does not capture what you wanted to know, which
+
+[19:48] is how much weight will I put on from eating this particular kind of
+
+[19:52] food? It's all very ironic, because the scientists do know, do they do
+
+[20:01] understand, on the whole, that processing matters enormously, and that
+
+[20:06] the, the more highly processed your food is, whether it's by cooking or
+
+[20:10] by, um, whatever has been done by way of grinding it in, in the food company before you even get it. This will increase the number of calories you get and everyone knows that. So we should have a modified labeling system, but there have been a whole series of attempts to think about what the new system could be, and no one can agree on what it should be. So it's not going to happen at the moment. Right. Well, the thing is, is that even if you could, uh, do that, you still need some sort of, uh, I mean, the body is so
+
+[20:43] complicated that you simply can't really say what's going to happen. Even there's no way to adjust it at all because my favorite, you know, example I put to everyone is that if I drank a gallon of vegetable oil right now, if I could do it without throwing up, I simply wouldn't absorb the vast majority of those calories, even though they're liquid and I should be able to absorb them fairly well, I'd just be overwhelming my
+
+[21:08] system and it would all, you know, leave relatively unprocessed. I mean, it's just impossible to, it's impossible
+
+[21:16] to, uh, to account for the differences in the way humans
+
+[21:21] consume. I mean, you could get probably some sort of close average based on what the average person eats and how fast the average person eats, but it's just an incredibly complicated system,
+
+[21:30] right? Yes, exactly. And that's a great example. And it really does draw attention to the fact that part of the problem with the current system is that it is too simple.
+
+[21:41] But then by the same token, any change to the system, in terms of the way that
+
+[21:49] we put some kind of numbers on the food labels, is going to be complicated, and complexity is a hard
+
+[21:58] sell. Yeah. I mean, I've thought of things, I mean, you probably have two, like some kind of traffic light system where you have
+
+[22:07] red amber and green. And you associate those with the particular numbers that you put on the, on the food label and say, uh, I, if it's, uh, if the
+
+[22:22] red, then, uh, probably actually you, you, you know, under the various circumstances, you're going to get more calories than you expect from this. And if it's green, you get less or whatever. Oh, so base it on expectations rather than on health. Don't have it be a, because I think most of the health claims are garbage anyway. So it's like, based it on expectations, like, that's an interesting idea. Yes, something that emphasizes that nothing very precise is going to come out, but you hear some ways to think about what it's going to do to you. Yeah, I mean, I think the real damage and, you know, you touch touch on this, but the real, real damage is this, is that, um, once you apply numbers to something. And this is my problem with much of nutritional science in general, once you apply numbers to something, then the average person believes that those numbers have meaning.
+
+[23:10] And so now there is this idea that there is a simple number that has a meaning, and in fact,
+
+[23:16] it doesn't. And so you can't go back and tell someone, well, your whole, you know, your whole mentality about the way food works is based on this thing that you think is simple and is
+
+[23:28] accurate. But in fact, I can't give you any good numbers. Sorry. People won't buy that. You know what I mean? Yes. Well, I mean, I mean, to me, the, you know, the ultimate example of this, of course, is the fact that, um,
+
+[23:39] that, uh, what my group and I have been emphasizing is this enormous difference between raw and
+
+[23:45] cooked. And if you just look at the numbers in the USDA website, which is the source for where a lot of the
+
+[23:54] materials or a lot of the food labels come from, What you will see is that you are supposed to get the same number of calories from raw
+
+[24:04] food, as you do from cooked. So if you take, you know, a carrot and you cook it raw, sorry, you eat it raw and then you cook it. According to the USD website, you're going to get the same number of calories. Well, this is completely absurd. Yeah, course. And you know, this is actually, ultimately, it could be dangerous because people who believe in numbers, and as you say, you know, people tend
+
+[24:25] to believe in numbers once they're given them, will stick to their guns and use them to support their
+
+[24:31] philosophy. And what could be dangerous is that you could, as a result, get too little food from eating it raw. And that's a choice if you're an adult, and if you're a child. It's um something that you're, your parents give to you, and that's where you really could be dangerous. You know, we have cases that have been reported of infants dying from eating raw food.
+
+[24:56] Right, because, well, right. I mean, so... I have a question when you're ready. I don't think it's related, but whenever you're ready. Oh, if it's not related to... We'll get it in a minute if it's not real. No problem. All right, so let's let me, because if people haven't read the book yet, I encourage them to go out and get the book, it's a fun read. It's well written. And right now we're really talking about the except for the nutrition labels. We're talking about the 1st half. So the 1st half, I would guess, professor is more, um, contentious in the scientific community, and the 2nd half is more contentious in the kind of
+
+[25:33] sociological, uh, committee, uh, community. And the 2nd half is more contentious kind of sociologically. Would you say that's true or no? Yes, probably, that's right. Yeah, I mean, it's not that contentious, but nevertheless, that's where it's provocative. Just put it that way. Yeah, okay. way to put it. So let's stay with the 1st half. And the 1st half is really about this thesis of cooking. And I was completely fascinating because Professor, you spent a lot of time actually hanging out with great apes, you know, chimps and whatnot in Africa, observing them, eating the way they
+
+[26:08] eat, doing these sorts of things. How long, how long per, how much time per day does the average great ape take eating? Um, so a chimpanzee, which weighs, um, I don't know, uh, something like £100, uh, will spend uh, roughly 5 or 6 hours just
+
+[26:29] chewing. Just chewing. Not gathering, just chewing. Just chewing, yep. So, so, uh, you know, they'll climb up into three, that sort of thing. But literally with food in their mouth, just moving their jaws up and down. It is about half the day. And so this is one of the incredibly striking things about the difference between us and our cousin primates, because
+
+[26:51] it's all related to body size, you know, the bigger you are, then the more time you've got to spend
+
+[26:56] chewing, because you've got to get more food into your body. And um, so if we were eating our food raw in the same way that
+
+[27:03] the chimpanzees and gorillas and orangutans do, then we would be spending something around 7 or 8 hours chewing per day.
+
+[27:12] Now, now, the reason, uh, for those of you who haven't read the book yet, that you would, that we would have to chew more than, uh, the
+
+[27:19] chimp is, uh, I mean, I would guess not just because our muscles are less strong, but because we require more energy to run our brains, yes? And we have a less efficient intestinal system. Well, okay, no, here's the funny thing about our brains. They're incredibly expensive to run, and you can never turn them off, unlike a computer. And so, you know, they're expensive to run when you're asleep, they're expensive to run when you're awake. But, even though they are costing something like between a quarter and a 5th of all the energy that you eat, um, when when you're resting, uh, something like, um, uh, 25% of the energy in, in your body is you being used to run your brain. Nevertheless, the total amount of energy that humans are using, when they're asleep, is the same in proportion to body
+
+[28:12] weight, in any other primate. We're not taking in more energy on average.
+
+[28:19] Is that because we're spending less energy on digestion? Exactly. So, so the solution that many people like, and it seems to really have a lot of sense to why it is that we are able to afford to run a big brain, which is obviously so important, is that we cut back on running our
+
+[28:38] guts. And this makes every sense, because we have the smallest digestive system in relationship to body size for any primate, and we have the largest brain in relationship to body size for any
+
+[28:49] primate. And the gut is one of the most expensive parts of the body. And it's been a while, but isn't it also true that our brain is more calorically expensive to run per gram than most other brains? We just run it at a faster rate. We overclock ourselves, yes? No, no, that's not right. Well, it's the same. A gram of our brain. It costs the same as a gram of my brain. Oh, okay. Good. Nice. All right. So like a whale just a whale takes a lot more energy to run their brain, but they have a much bigger body, so it's a smaller percentage. For which one? For like a whale, anything something with a huge brain, an elephant, something with a giant. Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, right. All right, cool. So we are not over clockers. So, interesting. Okay, now, so on this, I made some recent papers that have come out and see what your response is, your
+
+[29:43] colleague, colleagues, I guess, Lieberman, Professor Lieberman, who I guess is in your same building or in the building next to you at Harvard. Absolutely, yes, he's about 20 yards away. Ah, yes, you 2 can duke it out in the real life. You don't need to write papers. You can just go have it out with each other. Absolutely, yes, right. And Professor Zink wrote a paper basically saying that they think that chewing a
+
+[30:08] pounding, rather, and beating things with tools prior to prior to consuming them is enough to allow us to get the extra energy out rather than
+
+[30:19] cooking. What are your thoughts on that? Well, my thought is that it's a very odd idea. I mean, I, you know, they're both good friends and Katie Zinc was my student at one point. So, you know, I like what they do. But I think this particular conclusion is odd because it doesn't seem to pay attention to what we know about
+
+[30:42] raw food. You know, we know that even with incredibly high class food, you put into electric blender,
+
+[30:51] you, as a human, will still lose weight. And what they're saying is that way back in the Paleolithic, when you're using incredibly crude stone tools, that people could have done
+
+[31:01] enough by way of pounding and cutting their food to increase the ease of digestion and get enough food out of it. Yeah, I mean, I think the study, by the way, if people want to read it, is called impact of meat and lower Paleolithic food processing techniques on chewing in humans in nature. I, you know, I think to me, one of the main things about the paper that I didn't get was they're really
+
+[31:30] just, they were focusing on time to create a bolus to swallow, right? Which is not necessarily the the only thing that's important. It's part of it, right? Decreases the amount of time you have to chew, but not the amount you have to consume to get it
+
+[31:42] to get the calories required, right? Is that is that? That is absolutely right. So it's very awkward with humans because it's very difficult to get permission to be able to study what happens when people eat raw meat, say, because the authorities are so worried that people are
+
+[31:59] going to get some kind of a worm for something from eating raw meat. So they were stuck with seeing what happens in terms of the time spent
+
+[32:08] chewing. And, you know, they did very nice experiments showing that if you pound your meat or even just slice it. Then you will spend less time chewing. But it doesn't come to the heart of the matter, as you said. And here's another problem. Um, we actually have very good evidence, as a profession, that stone tools of the
+
+[32:29] types that they're talking about were used long before, humans emerged into their present body form. So, so the genus homo, um, you know, we're homo sapiens and an earlier form that has the same basic body shape as
+
+[32:46] homo erectus, and that happened around one.90000 years ago. But then, prior to that, all the way back to 3000000 years ago, you've got stone tools being used by
+
+[32:58] somebody, and those somebodies, um, were prehuman ape like forms. And so, you know, that's another difficulty, that uh, that if they were using those tools to modify their food,
+
+[33:13] it didn't do anything for them for a very long time. Yeah, you know what, you know what you should do, Professor? You should let people know here, like on this or any other show. We will volunteer to chew raw meat. We don't have to spit it out because we're not part of a sanctioned study. Like, isn't there some way to just create a voluntary study or is that completely unethical? Now, unfortunately, we're not allowed to do that, because when we try to publish it, um, the, the
+
+[33:38] journals will ask for the statement showing that we did it autletically. See, you can only write about it in a book, then you can never publish it in a journal. Yeah, exactly. And you'd be run out of the community on a rail, I presume. Yeah, it's not a bad idea. Yeah, because the thing is, right, if you're writing books, right, I mean, clearly you are, because, I mean, you could get a bunch of volunteers, I could probably find, you know,
+
+[34:02] 100 volunteers like today who would be willing to chew and swallow the meat and not worry about
+
+[34:07] it. But, you know, then the question is, how would you trace our, uh, how would you trace our,
+
+[34:12] um, You'd have to do it inside of a chamber to measure how much we were absorbing, I guess, which is
+
+[34:18] that. Yeah, you know, it becomes complicated, but I appreciate the thought and hey, maybe I'll get back to you with some studies. I mean, you know, we'd love to be able to to follow what happens, um, to uh, the microbiome of people eating raw food and people eating
+
+[34:35] cook food. So you know what we're talking about there? Yeah, yeah. The bacteria in the colon, and there's increasing evidence that this is quite important, a contributor to the amount of energy we get out of our food, and very little is known about anything that differs between the raw and the cooked foods. So shifting people from raw to cooked diets, and vice versa, and recording their
+
+[35:02] microbiome would be, you know, it's certainly something that people are going to be wanting to investigate soon. Yeah, well, maybe we can find some quasi-ethical way to do it. Well, yes, exactly. Right. Yeah. Um, so, uh, see if you have any more, uh, like, uh, pressing questions on the on the 1st section. Well, let's let's move to the 2nd section now, and then we can move back and forth. So the 1st section describes, you know, a bunch of reasons why, the best explanation, the cooking hypothesis, I guess you call it, the best explanation for how we got to be the way we
+
+[35:40] are is that we started cooking. Now, the 2nd section of the book deals with what the cultural impacts of that are. And so, you know, that's the part where, you know, it seems like it's interesting, but it gets in hot water for, you know,
+
+[35:58] could potentially get in hot water because it deals a lot with gender difference.
+
+[36:03] And so I'm not going to take a stab at cliff noting that
+
+[36:08] one. So you want to give a basic rundown of what cooking allowed to have happen and... Yes. Well, sure. So, here's the 1st observation that even though nowadays in enlightened places in Western Europe and
+
+[36:24] United States and so on. You have men who are really interested in cooking. The fact is that in every culture around the world,
+
+[36:33] in every society, it is almost entirely a woman's role to do
+
+[36:38] the ordinary domestic cooking. The ordinary household cooking. And this is the most striking of all of the economic differences between men and
+
+[36:49] women, that women do the cooking. The times when men do the cooking are special occasions, when you have feasts, when you have some kind of great public
+
+[36:59] affair, and men come out and jointly roast the elephant, as they were. In the book, right, you point to the fact that the ability to not spend a lot of time chewing and
+
+[37:16] having like your basic, like some basic staples and calories already cooked, allowed more time for one group, the males to go out and hunt, and therefore the other section devolved on the females to do that, the kind
+
+[37:30] of, we know it's going to be their cooking. Is that accurate or no? No, that is right. That if you look at small scale society. It's kind of ironic in a way because I mentioned earlier that if we were eating our food raw, then we'd be spending something like 7 or 8 hours chewing.
+
+[37:49] And so now we eat our food cooked and we can save lots and lots of time. I mean, instead of 7 or 8 hours, it's one hour a day, if you look, or less than one hour a day, all around the world. doesn't matter where you are. It's just the human condition. less than one hour a day chewing your food. So what do you do with all the spare time? Well, here's the irony. The irony is that the women are mostly spending that
+
+[38:11] time gathering food and cooking it and preparing it. But meanwhile, the men, in some ways, get off lightly. And the reason the men get off lightly is not that they don't do anything, they do. They do a lot of complimentary ways to get food. I mean, if you're living in a very simple way, in a small scale society, um, as a hunter and gatherer, then the men are doing a lot of hunting, but they have options. Women don't have options. They are absolutely required, culturally, to be there every day producing the basic food. But the men, if they want to, they don't have to hunt, you know, they can go off
+
+[38:50] and and lie under a tree and gamble, or visit girlfriends in the neighboring area, or go to war, or whatever else it is. For those of you that are listening to this and haven't read the book, I encourage you before you draw any sort of opinions to go read the relevant sections of the
+
+[39:06] book because professor, you go through a series of societies that appear to contradict what you're saying, but then you have arguments as to how they actually kind of fit into the general pattern, correct?
+
+[39:17] Yes, I mean, they're astonishing consistencies. I would say that. That's right. And so what we do in the book is to, I try and think about, Where does this pattern come from? Why is it that universally in human societies, it is the women who are doing the cooking and the men who have relative freedom and are able to absolutely rely on women providing food for them, which is so unlike any other
+
+[39:48] animal. And I come to the conclusion that this has got something to do with a very basic feature of cooking, that once you rely on cooking, then there's something funny about the way the food is
+
+[40:02] produced, and that is this, that it is very easily stolen. It's very easily
+
+[40:08] used by people other than the ones who collected the food. So, compare this with, um, If you're a chimpanzee, say, you climb into a tree, you pick up fruit and pop into your
+
+[40:22] mouth and nobody can take it from you. But if you're cooking food, you absolutely have to put the food onto a fire and just sit there for however long it takes for the food to cook. And during that time, someone else can come along and take the food. So, that means that, uh, the people who are doing the cooking and people have collected as food are vulnerable to the social competition. And so this is now, you know, a very strange kind of concept compared to thinking about us actually in the kitchen. But nevertheless, it is a reality of cooking on the campfire. And I think that reality leads to the following dynamic. Women end up needing to be socially protected from the kids from the woman next
+
+[41:07] door, or from some lousy bachelor who doesn't have a wife, or from some other visiting man. And the person who protects her is the husband. So, in the end, it does fall back on the old, the men do that kind of labor because of just physical strength.
+
+[41:25] Well, physical strength is part of it, but it probably even more important is just a compact among men. It's the, uh, it's the consensus among men that, uh, they will
+
+[41:39] uh, act as a sort of unified body, uh, to declare that, uh, if somebody has been
+
+[41:47] accused and found guilty of, um, uh, pinching food from behind a woman's back, uh, then they will punish
+
+[41:55] them. And so the thing is that they can act in consensus, you know, because when a wife says to a husband, look, you know,
+
+[42:02] somebody's always taking food from my fire, then he doesn't necessarily go and confront
+
+[42:08] them himself. He'll go to the elders and say, we got a problem in the camp. And then the elders will do something jointly. And that's where the real social power comes from. And in your book, you say that most, uh, most historical and um, you know, uh, small societies, current small size that are studied,
+
+[42:26] the, um, the cooking, keeping the cooking in the family unit, the food is more important even than sex. Yes, I mean, you know, well, we think of marriage, of course, as something that is really purely about sex and having babies, and
+
+[42:41] obviously that's a hugely important part of it. But it's very striking. Finding places where, um, from a man's point of view, what is absolutely more important than raising a family, when he
+
+[42:52] first, you know, enters his 20s and so on, is becoming a man, um, is that there is somebody to cook for him. And if he doesn't have a mother who is still alive, providing his food, or occasionally his sister, then he needs someone else to do it. And he will somehow arrange that. And in some decided, you find that his 1st wife will be someone who is
+
+[43:15] postmenopausal. She might be in her 60s, no way that she's going to provide him any children, but he provides, she provides him with food, and that means that he can go away and do manly activities during the
+
+[43:29] day, and be as masculine as he wants to be. Otherwise, he's forced to do the cooking himself. And in a world of stereotypes, then that means that he can't really adopt a male role. And also you say in these traditional societies, going back to, you say, when men cook, they're the ones, or when they bring back food, hunted food, meat, it's typically shared in the community, whereas they've gathered food, staples, cooked
+
+[43:56] foods that the women would are not ever share typically. Yes, I mean, there are a number of ways in which the relationships among men in these small scale societies are full of
+
+[44:10] cooperation in a way that is strikingly not so true of the women.
+
+[44:15] So, it tends to be the case that each woman has her own fire, to put her own
+
+[44:21] food, that she has gathered with her own personal hands, onto that fire, and she shares that food with her own children, and maybe, well, definitely her husband, and maybe one or two other close relatives.
+
+[44:34] But it's pretty limited, the sharing, whereas the men are much more
+
+[44:39] likely, when they catch something, if it's big enough to share, then they will share it very
+
+[44:44] widely with the other men in the community, and they share it with their own families. All right, now, let's get to the crux. Here's the big question. So if that was the case for how we evolved not just physically, but as culturally, as a society, to be where we are now, right? let's just assume it's all that it's all completely accurate. What does that tell us about the way we need to, or does it tell us anything about the way that we need to
+
+[45:15] interact today in a society where most people, they cook if they want to. They go to a restaurant if they want to, they order out if they want to. I'm talking in richer societies, like, you know, here in the US. Um, where we're completely unhinged from any of these uh, needs, right? We all have actual jobs that take up, you know, 8 hours of the day and cooking and eating is a relatively small proportion of time spent. Is there? I mean, clearly there are echoes of what happened more than echoes, right? But is there is there any, is there anything for the future? Like need we be bound by it anymore? No, I don't think there's any reason to think we have to be bound by the social
+
+[45:59] patterns. I mean, we would, we would have to acknowledge them if, in fact, there was any evidence of an evolutionary impact on our psychology. I haven't seen any such evidence so far. So, it seems to me that, um, that we should look at what happens in the human species in the past, and in many societies today, and it's sort of conscious of the fact that we want to get away from
+
+[46:25] it, in a world of egalitarianism, between the sectors. Right. I mean, I don't remember whether you state that explicitly in
+
+[46:34] a book, but I mean, the interesting thing to me is that we, that there really doesn't seem to be, once it's, once it's no longer a physical
+
+[46:42] necessity, We no longer need to act that way anymore, right? Yeah, no, that's exactly right. On the other hand, you might say that there are benefits to it. I think one of the loveliest papers,
+
+[46:55] studies that came out in the time since the book was published, was one that drew attention to the way that eating around the
+
+[47:04] fire, is a system that is conducive to the most lovely kinds of stories and conversations that occur in the hunters and gatherers of South
+
+[47:20] Africa. So, the Bushmen there, studied by Poly Weistner, she recorded what people talk about all day. And basically, during the day, people talk about very little. There are a few words just involved in organizing each other as to where we're going and what we're
+
+[47:40] doing and how to cut up a piece of meat and so on. But all interesting conversations, she said, happened around the fire in the evening. And that's when the stories are told about the original myths of the society, or
+
+[47:55] of some tremendous hunt that happened, or some hilarious incident happened with someone in another group. Uh, whatever. So, yeah, that reminds me of the fact that people do say that the conversations around a meal with your children are enormously important, and that there's something that is, you know, very sadly lost when everyone just watches
+
+[48:20] television, um, while they're eating. Oh, yeah. No, that's for sure true. I mean, the thing is, is that there's, there's the good and the bad of what used to be, right? So it's, I mean, I would hope that we could degender the idea of sitting around a campfire and talking or
+
+[48:40] sitting around a meal. I mean, it's an interesting thing. You don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right? Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, we certainly should not be bound to the notion that women are the cooks. That has been true in our past, and that's, you know, that's bad from the point of view of
+
+[48:59] stereotypes and assigning people to a particular role. Hopefully we can get way past that as we move into a postgendered world. What are your thoughts on the kind of observation I've heard many times that most of the time in modern couples in the US, um, when there is going to be a shared, um, a
+
+[49:23] shared, uh, shared housework between uh, the man and the woman and a couple, uh, that the man almost always takes the cooking and the women almost always take the uh, cleaning
+
+[49:36] role on that. This is not my observation. I've heard this from many people. You think that's because cooking now is seen as a high prestige thing? It's just yet another... I mean, yeah, that's a really fun speculation. I mean, you know, one of the questions I think it's fascinating, which I haven't seen any really satisfactory answers to is why do men tend to do the barbecuing? Well, you touch on that in your book, right? That meat cooking has, since time memorial meat cooking, if men were going to cook anything, is going to be the meat. Yeah, I mean, it's one possibility. Another possibility is that because meat tends to be the center of attention for the meal, the thing that makes that particular meal special, then the men want to be in charge of
+
+[50:18] it because, you know, they get all the excitement of producing is. Right. So even as we go towards less gendering of things, we actually still maintain this sort of problematic
+
+[50:31] gender differences. Yeah, I mean, you know, of course, uh, you know, there are many other dynamics involved about, uh, who's looking after the children who's taking children to school, you know, who's getting the jobs and so on. But, um, but the point I would certainly want to emphasize is that, um,
+
+[50:48] there doesn't seem to be any reason why our evolutionary past of women doing the
+
+[50:55] cooking has to be the, it does not have to be the evolutionary future. We got to wrap up, but I do have a caller with a question for the guests here. All right, cool. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, uh, Dave, Professor Rangum. This is a scooter in Montana, and actually a professor, I'm a Harvard Anthropology grad, though I don't think we crossed paths there. Okay. But this is actually a question that was, some folks in the chat room we're kicking around is, just sort of generally, how does fermentation play into, um, kind of
+
+[51:25] caloric, uh, benefits. Oh, yeah, it's a terrific question because we don't know that much about fermentation. It's very clear that, um, uh, that when you, uh, ferment your grains uh, in water to producing a
+
+[51:42] beer, or you, you ferment your meat, um, that it increases the net energy gain for the eaters.
+
+[51:49] So, it looks like there's all sorts of ways in which fermentation is a sort of functional equivalent of cooking. The
+
+[51:58] question in my mind that is unresolved is how far this goes back in time. You know, as you probably know, pottery only goes back to something like 20, 25,000 years ago. Could people have been fermenting in skin bags for some tens of thousands, maybe even 100s of thousands of years before
+
+[52:22] then, could they have found ways to ferment, even without containers like that? There's all sorts of research, possibilities, that we still don't have any very good ideas about, I think. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Great question. Um, yeah, but was is there evidence of food stockpiling, in which case there would be auto fermentation or
+
+[52:44] Redding and things like natural wells or hollows or anything? Right, no, I don't think, you know, only very, very recently for that sort of thing. That'll be wonderful to find evidence of the kind of thing that you see in the South Seas nowadays, or relatively recently, where cooked starches could be kept for, I
+
+[53:06] think, people sometimes think 100 years in underground, cool places. That's a great question. So we're going to get kicked off the air. One question on the way out, Professor, and I thank you so much for being on. Do people pester you about the paleo diet all the time? Oh, uh, they occasionally ask and um, yeah, I mean, I like a Mediterranean diet myself. Alright. I just, I had to be, I'd be remiss if I didn't because uh, it seems to me to be completely not uh, in, you know, part of what you talk about there, but I'm sure people pester you about
+
+[53:41] it because they see the word paleo. Well, yeah, that's true, right? No, I'm not wild about the paleo diet myself. And I mean, I think, you know, there's a lot of fantasy about the paleo diet that, like so much of nutritional
+
+[53:55] science. You know, people get hold of a of a very particular idea and really push it, and it's still an incredibly primitive area. I mean, it amazed me that when I started getting interested in cooking. There was no systematic literature looking at the impact of cooking on the energy
+
+[54:13] production, on the food, and we've had to do that work ourselves. I mean, just really brings home the fact that this is a very exciting area. The whole area of nutrition, that still has a tremendous way to go before we really understand it well. All right, well, we've been speaking with Professor Richard Rangam from Harvard University, author of Catching Fire,
+
+[54:37] how Cooking Made As Human. Professor, thank you so much for being on the air with us today. I had a great time. Really appreciate it, Dave. Thanks a lot. All right, thanks. And on the way out, I want to mention 2 things. Shy wrote in about Bazbuzza, which is a semolina cake soaked with syrup. He wanted to make it less sweet. Use a low DE. That's dextrous equivalent glucose syrup. You can get it on Amazon. It's about 40% as sweet. It's about 81 bricks. You can water it down a little bit. It'll be a little more than a little less than half the sweetness of the sugar that you want to add. And one shout out, the museum of food and drinks, 2 shout outs. Museum of food and drinks. Spring benefit is next week. There are still tickets available. And my son, the quad has, who's on the autistic spectrum, goes to a twice exceptional school called the Quad Preparatory School.
+
+[55:22] They having their 3rd annual Founders Gala. I'm going to be making cocktails. Franklin Becker's going to be cooking. Mark Ladner and Christina Tozi are putting stuff out there, and you can go to eventbright.com and type in quad preparatory. Thank you so much, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:12] Cooking issues will be starting shortly, please stay tuned.
+
+[1:26] Hi there, I'm Greg from Kapal. Visit us at Capau.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less.
+
+[1:37] CUPPOW.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Raider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[2:01] Hello and welcome to Cooking Agents. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking. You're just coming to you live on there. We're doing Network from Avertis Pizzeria in Bushwick. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, Brooklyn. How you doing, folks? Calling your questions too, 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. Join in the studio, as usual with Nastasia. Lopez, how you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah, everything good? And and, of course, in the booth, we got Jackie molecules. Hello, hello. Now, Jack... Now, Jack, there's going to be sad times for cooking issues because good news for you, you're going to go out on tour pretty soon, right? I am. There's a lot on the horizon for me right now. But if you're on tour, that means that you're not going to be in the booth. Well, you know, they'll be the ghost of Jackie molecules. Um, no, I I do hope to kind of call in from some of these cities. I'll be in, let's see, I'll be in London. I'll be in the east of England, some weird little town Ipswich, I think. Then I'll be in Paris and I think Barcelona and Iceland. Oh. Yeah. I wanna go to Iceland. Me too. Yeah, I'm excited about that one the most. We are playing shows in like the weirdest places in Iceland, so that'll be fun. Yeah, if the listeners want to check out the music. It's Odetta Hartman 222, which I think I've shamelessly plugged on the show before, but that's the record that I produced. I play with her live. And we're hitting the road. So what's up with the 222? What's the meaning of the tut2? Well, let's see. Her birthday is the 22nd. Her number is two. That's just where it starts. And then we had this thing where we would always send each other screenshots when it was 222
+
+[3:45] p.m. on the phone. back and forth just as a kind of like whatever thing. And then it turns out she researched the number 222 and it's some weird, like, numerology. It's like an angel number of, the meaning behind it is like a divine collaboration kind of thing or something.
+
+[4:01] So, I don't know, there are all these coincidences with the twos. So we just went and then the record itself is 22 minutes and 22 seconds long. By chance, that 1st of all, you're lying. Well, okay. The final mix down. Listen, the final mix down was like 21 minutes and 40 seconds and I was like, I'll be damned if this isn't 2222. It was close enough, you know? That is not by chance. Yeah, shaving. No, it was close enough by chance. It was close enough by chance. Right, right. Thanks. Yeah. Wait, so how many 2s are in the album? Only three. You got a 4th 2 there. Yeah, I know. It's just kind of hanging two. Hanging two. All right. All right. Well, anyway. Uh, yeah, yeah. My last show in the studio will be the week of the 24th. So, I don't know, what day would that be? The 19th or something, June 19th. That'll be a sad. Yeah. Will pop champagne. Oh, oh, and uh, me, me, me. For Stas, mostly, not for me. Mimi, me's in the back provided by Peter Kim, the director of the museum of food and drink coming off of
+
+[5:02] his, uh, uh, I'm sure you went on some huge bender because you just finished your the, uh, spring benefit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, no, I, I, the next morning, Alice Waters came and visited the
+
+[5:14] museum, and then I had to do this shoot for CBS Sunday morning on
+
+[5:18] the Chinese takeout box. You didn't liquor yourself up for the Alice Waters meeting. No? think that was a yes. Yeah, that was a yes. That was a secret. yes. Yeah. He was actually, he wasn't using liquor. He was chewing cot. Is cot actually illegal here in... It is highly illegal. So I know nothing of it. Yeah, your old lawyer day is coming back. It was highly illegal, Dave. All right. So we got some interesting stuff we're going to do here on the program today. We're going to call into Harold McGee. He's on the line. Oh, he's on the line? All right. Well, and Daniel Gritzer is going to come in later to help answer someone else's question on niximization. But Harold, how you doing? I'm doing well, thanks. How about you guys? Oh, good, good. Harold was the 2016 recipient of uh, what was the exact... MoFED
+
+[6:04] honoree. 2016 honoree. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you might know him as the person who knows everything about the science of deliciousness, or at least has taught us everything about the science
+
+[6:14] of deliciousness. If you haven't already purchased on food and cooking, the keys are good cooking and gone on
+
+[6:21] Bookfinder and also purchased the curious cook off of someone else's used bookstore that do that now, stop listening to us and go buy that right now.
+
+[6:28] Are you ever going to republish that on your website, The Curious Cook? I know like, you have excerpts out there? Yeah, I should really do something about that, shouldn't I? Yeah, because it doesn't even, it's not like, it's not like republishing the old information from on food and cooking in the 1st edition, which I know you're like, I'd have to go
+
+[6:48] revisit it. This is more about just experiments. You could write literally like a 2 paragraph addendum being like, this is no longer 100% what I think, but this is how I went through the experiment at that time. It'd still be useful for people, no? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Just my just my personal feelings. All right, so I met someone at Booker and Dax. Um, recently and she had said that uh, her, I think it was her mom, uh, had just had a virus and had knocked out her olfaction. And the doctors, you know, said that, you know, it might come back 100%. It might come back partially, it might take weeks, it might take months. And I told her that I know someone, you know, you, Harold, who had a similar, a similar problem. And so I just thought I'd have you on to talk about kind of what that was like, especially for someone who, you know,
+
+[7:40] his food is such a big part of their life and kind of how you made it through it and kind of what
+
+[7:45] the, whether there was any sort of thing you could do to help yourself out while it was going on.
+
+[7:49] Yeah, it was not fun. And I think you might remember it because it was a couple of years ago when, um, uh, we had just finished lecturing at Harvard and I was coming down to New York City to participate in a country ham tasting where the whole point is to taste and notice qualities
+
+[8:13] and uh, uh, like a week or 10 days before I came out to Harvard. I just woke up one morning, made a cup of coffee and realized I couldn't taste my
+
+[8:24] coffee or I couldn't smell it. Um, and uh, that was scary because I'm in the middle of writing a book about smell.
+
+[8:33] And uh, so I have a friend who uh, was at the time the director of the Monel Chemical Census Center in Philadelphia, you know, center that specializes in taste and smell.
+
+[8:50] And I wrote him immediately and said, uh, yeah, what do I do about this? And he basically said, uh, it's a very common problem that lots and lots of people over the course of their lifetime do lose their sense of smell for a period of
+
+[9:08] time, that it's happened to him. And that there's really nothing that specialists in the field can do to help or to comfort
+
+[9:21] you. You know, there's just no predicting when it's going to come back and how. So he said, just relax and try to enjoy the other qualities of foods. And, um, so I I did that. And what I found, I did find that my, um, my interest in eating really declined, you
+
+[9:44] know? It's, uh, smell is such a big part of it that I would just, uh, not see the point of working really hard to make something nice for
+
+[9:54] dinner anymore. Um, so what I did end up doing, though, is uh, just noticing that, um, if the, when you can't smell food, then the other qualities become that much more important.
+
+[10:09] So I found that um, if a food was uh, undersalted, or if the meat was kind of, you know, tough and dry and not very interesting, that I just, uh, it made that particular dish really unappealing, and I just didn't want to eat any more of
+
+[10:27] it. So, uh, my my feeling is that, uh, you know, investing in the idea that it's going to come back at some point, and you have to keep yourself healthy in the meantime, and eat reasonably, uh, then what you do, uh, if you're cooking for yourself, or if you're cooking for someone else who has
+
+[10:48] this uh, problem, is just to make the food as appealing in all its other aspects as
+
+[10:55] possible. And so that means, uh, the seasoning, it means, uh, I found myself using lemon
+
+[11:02] juice, and lime juice a lot more than I would have in the past. I liked crunchy things and really smooth silky things, uh, but stuff that kind of dried out my mouth, you know, just, uh, that didn't do it for me anymore. So, tannins, you like laid off tannins and a lot of tannic stuff? Uh, yeah, yeah. One thing I remember doing that sounds a little, uh, well, it is kind of peculiar, but, uh, you know, I, uh, I live in California. There's a lot of citrus around all the time. And so I was trying to, you know, eat my oranges, get my vitamins. And I noticed one day when I peeled my orange and then it took me a few hours to get around to eating it, I got distracted by something
+
+[11:52] else. You know how the, um, the skin around each segment dries out? And it turns out if it dries out enough, instead of being chewy, which was not something that I was interested in without any sense of smell, it becomes really
+
+[12:09] crisp. And then you get this kind of burst of flavery when you bite into it, that made eating oranges, something as simple as eating oranges, much more interesting to me.
+
+[12:19] This was on like a navel or like a Setsuma, like a more of a Clementine kind of a situation? Oh, actually, it was, to begin, I 1st found it in, um, uh, in the smaller
+
+[12:30] ones in tangerines, uh, Clementines, things like that, but it also works for navels. And then I discovered that MFK Fisher actually wrote about this, you know, decades and decades ago. She was living in France. She, she wasn't getting, uh, she didn't have the money to uh, eat uh, spectacularly well, but she found that if she left uh, a man, peeled a
+
+[12:53] mandarin orange, left it on her radiator until it dried out, uh, she got that wonderful release of flavor.
+
+[13:00] Anyway, so little things like that. I found could make a really big difference. And then I also am a believer in the idea that, you know, the more effort you make, the more you kind of, uh, make your olfactory system think that
+
+[13:19] it's uh, expectations are high for it, that it'll come back faster. So I would just really concentrate on trying to smell things even when I wasn't really getting anything. And I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but at least you have the feeling that
+
+[13:36] you're, again, making an effort, exercising the system, even if it's not responding the way you want it
+
+[13:42] to yet. No, to be, so people know, at the beginning, this wasn't like, oh, I have a stuff he knows. This is like nose clear knocked out though, right? Like knockout. Yeah, yeah. No, I, that was the scary thing, is that I had no other symptoms. If I'd had a head cold, then sure, it kind of makes sense that my sense of smell is a little impaired, but I
+
+[14:02] had had no other issues whatsoever. Just realized one day I was drinking my coffee and I wasn't tasting coffee. Was there any moment during this time when you found anything delicious? Uh, well, yeah, in a kind of, um, you know, partial way. I mean, potato chips, because they're salt, and actually potato chips, sea salt and vinegar potato chips. Because that was really hammering my taste buds and the crispy, crunchy piece of it was really wonderful too. That was sort of my, my go to, uh, you know, just to get calories because I really wasn't interested in, um, in eating. Did you, uh, did you do any of the texture only, uh, kind of famous dishes like uh, bird's nest or any of that stuff? No, no, that I should have done that. I should have done. Hopefully you will not have the chance to do it again. Now, the other thing is, did it come back slowly or my memory
+
+[15:13] serves it came back somewhat gradually over the course of like a week or something, right? Or even longer than that. I mean, it was several months before it came back. Uh, and then one day, uh, as I say, you know, I would try to make an effort to smell things, I would just kind of
+
+[15:28] snort uh, trying to get the air rushing through my nasal passages
+
+[15:34] harder. And one day I just noticed that there seemed to be a little bit of a hint of flavor. I think it was again in my in my morning cup of coffee. And it would then just go away and I wouldn't get anything at all. And I was thinking, well, maybe I hallucinated it. And over the course of several weeks, it slowly came back to the point where I didn't have to snort. I would actually get it just by normal breathing. Huh. Mm, scary. So, uh, do you want to, I actually have a question that you probably have some uh, answers to. Do you want to stay on with me or do you have to scoot off up to you? I could stay on for another 10, 15 minutes or so. All right. Here we go. Got a question in on Nastasia's favorite. And she didn't actually punk you with this, Peter, but Peter also likes this. I'm gonna jump in. We actually got a caller for you and Harold. All right, we'll do that. We'll take the call first. All right, caller, you are you are on the air. How's it going? How's it going, man? I was wondering if there's any way to make cream on
+
+[16:42] churnable. Unchurnable? or unturnable? not turned into butter at all. Oh, um, Harold, do you know of anything? Uh, unsurnable. Well, um, no, I, I mean,
+
+[16:57] starting with homogenized cream helps, that makes it a lot harder, but I think it, it would still, you know, if you, if you went at it hard enough, it would still, it would still
+
+[17:07] churn. I mean, you could probably stabilize the ever-loving crap out of it, right? I mean, if you were to dope it with, um, I mean, It's got what? It's uh, 70, roughly 70% water, 66, 60, 65, somewhere between 60 and 70% water in the cream that you
+
+[17:29] have. So you could probably boil that a little bit to extract out some of the water, take pure water, hydrate some sort of, uh, like, uh, some sort of thickener, and maybe that would help protect it in the way
+
+[17:42] that, uh, in the way that starch prevents, um, uh, from curdling when you when you cook it. I don't know, Harold. Do you think anything like that could help like styrically hinder the fat agglomerating
+
+[17:58] or no? Yeah, no, I think, I mean, the fat globules themselves are pretty stable to heat. So, uh, yeah, just uh, putting enough interfering material in there to get in the way of the globules touching each other. That would probably be it. Right. I mean, you could probably turn the entire thing into a fluid gel,
+
+[18:19] right? If you wanted to. And then if you did that, I wonder whether or not, I wonder whether or not you could prevent it from, I mean, the texture would be weird. It wouldn't be cream, but you might be able to stop it from having the
+
+[18:34] ability because the individual, I think that the particles that you would have, you know how big the fat globules are, like, Harold, like, like roughly in micrometers, I have
+
+[18:44] no, uh, micrometer, I have no idea. I think it's on the order of tem. Unhomogenized. Right. So if you homogenize it smaller, Yeah. Okay. So the limits of your tongue are roughly 20, right? Which means that if your fluid gel particles are somewhere between the order of 10 and 20,
+
+[19:08] right? You should be able to lock a number of fat globules inside of the particles in the fluid gel and maybe prevent them from agglomerating because
+
+[19:19] they'll just be kind of trapped up in something that stays as a coherent unit.
+
+[19:24] That's just a, this is a complete guess right out of my, right out of my behind. I have no idea, but it's something to try. Uh, you know, what do you think, Harold? Is this any of this reasonable or no? Yeah, yeah. No, that that sounds reasonable. Sounds like a good experiment. Yeah, all right. Yeah, appreciate it. Going in a frosty factory. So, I don't know if the temperature or the constant movement is
+
+[19:45] going to affect those, uh, the, like, fluid of the, of the fat in it at all. And that was my only concern. Oh, if it's in a fact, if it's in a fact, yeah, I'm sure you could just use some sort of steeric inhibition or something stabilizer, but you'd have to worry about, you'd have to worry about whether it's still going to flow fluidly or not. The fluid gel will flow fluidly if it's a low enough fluid gel, but I think the lower the concentration on the fluid gel, the more it's a regular liquid with some particles in it that are stabilizing it versus particles with some liquid around them, you
+
+[20:15] know? But again, this is you're stretching way back on my memory banks for how to dork with things. Yeah, um, well, I appreciate that, okay. All right. Let us know, tweet on in. lets know what happens. Ooh, look, and we're joined. We have, which is like a full house here. We got Daniel Gritzer in because I had a question later. So, Harold, so Daniel, how did Daniel have a seat? This is a question. Thank you. Oh, what happened? What happened? We got married. Oh, you got married? Oh, yeah. 's that? How do you like being married? I like it. It's good Yeah, it's all good. All right. You know what else, Dave? What? It's episode 250 today. Yeah? Nice. Nice. Nice even number. serendipity here. It's a good way to celebrate 250. It is. And McGree, man, McGee. That's good. Yeah. Peter Cam. Oh, yeah, and Peter Kim, yeah. Wow, wow. Okay, over here. So, speaking of the curious cook and the fact that you should republish it, Harold, we have a question on, and it's written this way, Jerusalem fartichokes. Jerusalem fartichokes. I will read the question. This is from David in Ottawa. Uh, We've been making uh, confit J-chokes at the rest. I like J jokes. Yeah, that's a good name. good rapper name. It's a great rap name or song. Yeah, J Chokes. Nastasia, of course. Listeners will remember that Nastasia wants Gastrointestinally poisoned her friends by feeding them quarts of mildly cooked Jerusalem artichokes in like a salad
+
+[21:46] format at a picnic thing. Literally, she knew. No bathroom around anywhere. Literally, she knew that this was like, you know, uh, fermentation, like, uh, you know, extravaganza going to happen in their guts in the, you know, within the next couple of hours. The reason she knew is because she had done it to herself. Yeah, she, just so you know what I deal with people. Anyway, basically, we just poached the J chokes and clarified butter when we cooked them, a sticky white scum floats to the surface. That's my next band, sticky white scum. As the lion cooks are wont to do, we ate some. It's sticky, sweet, sticky, and delicious. Here's the question. Do you think this scum could just be purified? These are in quotes, Harold? Small chain, fruit of sands, and starch-like inulin, that McGee describes politely as causing abdominal discomfort.
+
+[22:39] When we ate it, there was no noticeable effect, but also, we're the kinds of people who eat the scum raft from the top of a pot of poaching
+
+[22:45] J chokes. So perhaps we don't make the best control group. Any thoughts? I guess I can munch down on a full glob of this stuff and see what happens, but I'd rather have an educated guess before risking dinner service ruinations. Regards David in Ottawa. Okay. Well, it's interesting that they're poaching it in butter. I know, you know, indulin is really soluble in water, and that's why, you know, you say boil them in a big pot of water after you let them age for a
+
+[23:10] while. But you guys got any thought, you got any thoughts on this, Harold, Mr. Inulin, man? Well, I mean, the scum rising to the top, that sounds to me like it's, uh, it's going to be probably as rich in stuff other than Inulin. I mean, proteins and, uh, you know, surface active materials. Uh, so, you know, my my sense is it's not going to be especially uh, enriched in stuff that's going to cause trouble. Well, yeah, except for Jerusalem March jokes themselves. I looked it up because I had the benefit of knowing that I was going to be asked this question, like, you know, an hour or 2 ago, but it, uh, they're like 20% annulant or something crazy like that, right? They're like, they're high in Inulin. And Inulin itself forms, or can, in certain circumstances, form a gel. I didn't read it carefully. I didn't realize it was in butter. Um, so that's a different, that they're doing it in butter, so the, I mean,
+
+[24:05] obviously the scum floating to the top. probably water soluble stuff expelled from the chokes, right? The other thing is, is like, like everyone can tolerate a certain amount of this garbage, not garbage, you know what I'm saying, in their system,
+
+[24:16] right? It's a soluble fiber. That's the daily deal. It's soluble fiber. So you can't digest it. The definition of fiber, I think, basically is that you can't digest it, right? That's really, it doesn't have to be fibrous, doesn't have to be a
+
+[24:31] fiber, as long as it's, oh, my God, I just, in my mind, now I'm thinking of the sandlock, because whenever I say fiber, fiber.
+
+[24:39] Really, so you know that, you know the sandlot? No, no, I'm missing the ref. Forever. You never seen this movie? Jack? Anyone seen this? Yes, of course, forever. Anyway, so the point being that it goes into your gut and then the microbes in your gut,
+
+[24:55] they can digest this stuff just fine. They produce a whole boatload of gas and there you have it, right? But the more you eat of it, probably the more accustomed you get to it, the less of a big dose that your gut
+
+[25:06] microfloor get, and the more you can handle it. wouldn't you say that's true, Harold? Uh, yes, that's that's certainly the fact when it comes to uh, beans that's been studied in uh, bean flatulence. Not to my knowledge with inulin flatulence. The other thing to know about the particular bugs that you're
+
+[25:28] feeding, is that it's the befitted bacteria that are especially fond of inulin and fructous sands and things like
+
+[25:36] that. And they're, uh, of all the bugs in our gut, apparently the ones that are uh, doing us the most good most of the time. So I actually think that, you know, throwing a few slices of Jerusalem artichoke into your
+
+[25:50] daily diet is probably a really good idea. Yeah, that's the, those are the bacteria that they dope into Jamie Lee Curtis, Jamie Lee Curtis's feminine poop yogurt, right? I don't know about that. Activia, right? Am I wrong about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's what they do. I think that's what they put in. I don't know why it's only for women. can't men also benefit from this is, is there some sort of a gender? No, from the bacteria doped yogurt to make you poo. Is there is there an actual difference between the genders in
+
+[26:29] the what the yogurt does to your body? Clearly we have not studied this. Clearly nobody knows. Stasi, you know anything about this? Have you seen the Kirsten Wig imitation of Jamie Lee Curtis pooping herself on Saturday Night Live? Worth a watch. Okay, so the other thing is, is that a lot of this is in small amounts, obviously, this isn't going to do much. It's if you gorge on this stuff and you're not used to it, is when you're really going to have the hammer come down on you, right? Exactly, yeah. yep. And the raw, the more likely that is. Yeah. So Peter Kim, uh, is using, was using chicory root, which also is extremely high in Inulin, uh, for making uh, tablets for the museum of food and drink, and originally we were worried about the dose level of, um, uh, soluble fiber that these uh,
+
+[27:20] inulin these folks at beginning. So Peter graciously ate about 15 times as many pills as the average guest could hope to
+
+[27:29] consume and what happened to you? I got myself a stack of magazines. some candles. I had myself a nice little indulin feast. No, it was fine, man. It was fine. Yeah. And basically we did some calculations on what typical tolerance levels are for Inulin and figured that even if a small child ate 100 of these, they'd probably still be okay. So, um, and I, indeed, was all right. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. No, nice. Oh, here's a question I have for anyone that's ever thought about this. So, uh, where else do we uh, deal with inulin a lot, anyone, anyone? 1st of all, Inulin, Inulin, basically long chain fructose, okay? Long chain fructose. Let's just get that out of the way. So agave. Yeah. Inulin, agave. And artichokes, right? Uh, regular artichokes? I don't know. I don't know, chicory root, Jerusalem artichokes. Uh, agave. But my point is, has anyone made a distilled spirit with Jerusalem artichokes? Like a super long bake, like you do for agave, for agave piñas, and then make them into a liquor? You ever heard of anything like that, Harold? anyone? No, that sounds like a great idea. Right? I think I know who's going to do it too. Well, I don't know. Do you have a like, they grow in rather northern climes, right? It's not a southern vegetable, isn't it? Like, isn't it? can I grow it here? Yeah, yeah. Sure can. So, you know, like, I don't have a ready access to it. Maybe I'll try it this year. I'll try to mash them out and do some distillation. But anyone out there, I'm sure someone in the cooking issues world is just the kind of lunatic who has tried it. And so like, you know, let me know, but I think we could have a new distilled spirit on our hands. What would you call that? J. J. Choke? J. Farka? Jay. Oh, well, you remember, you gotta defart it because you're gonna, you're gonna be cooking the, you're gonna be cooking the ever-loving snod out of it. Um, I don't know, sun, sun, sun booze. Why do they call sunflower? Oh, they're related to sunflowers? Yeah, yeah. It's, and it's a native, if I'm remembering correctly, it's a native of one of the few food
+
+[29:39] items that come from North America. There you go. It's our, you know, it's the north, it's the north part of North America, because remember, Mexico is North America people. Yeah. But it's north part of Northern America is native, uh, it's like Aragave. Only, you know, you don't have to wait so long to harvest it. And I wonder where they, I wonder whether there'll be a lot of big flavor differences between different, I don't know,
+
+[30:04] someone's, if someone's done it and they're going to be like, Dave, the reason no one makes is it tastes like
+
+[30:08] garbage. It tastes like garbage. That's why. You know what I mean? But we should probably have like a, uh, someone who's done a lot of distilling of raw materials do it 1st so that we, we, you know, get rid of the control of this person just doesn't know what the hell they're doing with distillation.
+
+[30:25] You know what I mean? Anyway. But I think it'd be much more interesting to do it, the old school way. actually cook it until it until you get sugar and then ferment it rather than because you can just hit it with enzymes. And then that's it. You know what I mean? Also, uh, like uh, Inulin breakdown, I was looking up today, really, really rapid at low pH, right? But the fact of the matter is, you have to get below about pH 4 before the hydraulysis of
+
+[30:51] indulin to fructose is very rapid at normal cooking temperatures. And who wants their Jerusalem artichokes to be, you know, more tart than a tomato? Yeah. You know what I mean? Doesn't sound right to me. Would you want that, Harold? I mean, like, hey, you could speed it up by adding acid, but on the other hand, now all your Jerusalem artichokes
+
+[31:12] tastes like acid. You know what I mean? I don't know. don't know. I usually fry mine in Elestra myself. Dude, don't be going off against alestro. Have we had this conversation on the air already? Are you making me redo a conversation we've already had on the air? Seriously? Jack, do you remember me ever talking about Alestra? I do. You do because you've heard, you live, you work with me in the real life. Have we talked about it on air? Jack stepped away, but I don't remember. Yeah, well we probably have. There's nothing wrong. But there are many things wrong with Olestra. Like they bind fat soluble vitamins, so you have to dope yourself with them because otherwise you poop out all the fat soluble
+
+[31:46] vitamins. But as long as you're using a solid Olestra, it's not going to run out of your behind without your knowing. Ellie and the chat, remember? That's a relief. I tell you, like, again, like briefly, that's the reason people didn't like the olestro potato chips was because they were made with hydrogenated fat, and they tasted greasy. In fact, they, and I've said this before on air. They had to develop a hot air curtain to blow the outside layer of fat off of the potato chips to reduce the greasiness because you're not supposed to fry potato chips
+
+[32:18] and hydrogenated fat. Not for health reasons for taste reasons. It just doesn't taste right for the same reason that you're not supposed to fry a donut in a liquid fat because it
+
+[32:27] just doesn't taste right. It tastes greasy. Do you like a greasy donut, Daniel? No, I don't I don't love greasy donuts. Harold, greasy. You like a greasy donut? Nope. No. didn't think so. Hey, actually, I don't know, Harold, whether you've done it if you have time. We have another question that you might have done some work on. Okay. Uh, this is from, well, I don't have to, it's from. I got a bread baking question. In particular, it's about the tangzong roux that is used to mix into a bread recipe to make fluffy bread.
+
+[33:03] Now, what we're talking about here is like the water roux, where you pre-make a roux, and then you mix it into the bread. You know about this, Daniel? I don't. I don't bake much. So this is new to me. It's been getting a lot of, it's started out in a, in a, I guess, the early 2000s, but it's been getting more and more play. You know, the Asian style bread that is really fluffy and last long time. Harold, you've been following this or no? No I have not. Yeah. All right. Well, so then I'll just go on. Okay. So just so you know, what the basic premise here is, Well, I'll read the question first. Um, let me see. While I understand that it produces a fluffier and softer final bread product, could you explain the science of why the
+
+[33:40] roux would have this effect on the bread? In the past, I've played with adding some milk into the bread to make it softer as well. How does this rue affect the bread versus just using milk in a recipe? Uh, and preliminary research on the webs, uh, shows stuff about superhydration. Thanks for such a good podcast. Nice. And by the way, oh, this is from Don, Don Vo in Berkeley,
+
+[34:02] California, he actually calls you out, Peter. He says hello to Dave Nastasia, not Stas, Nastasia, Lopez, Jackie Molecules, and Peter Sandwich
+
+[34:10] Aficionado Kim. So, Peter, you get the shout out on this as well. So basically, um, what the, the, uh, oh, and also, uh, says, uh, got the BDX
+
+[34:18] cube and he thinks it's fantastic and has made an improved clover club for him. Okay, so here's the here's the deal. You take, and before you take a portion of water, typically it's about 5 to one, so about 5 parts water, one part flour, and it's usually
+
+[34:31] a, you know, not that large amount of the water, but the water. And you cook it like you're making a roux. However, the traditional traditional. The way that it's written in recipes. Originally, everyone's like, oh, keep it to exactly 65 degrees Celsius, right? And, um, so I made, I haven't made, didn't have a chance to make bread, but I made one that I took to 65 on the dot and one that I boiled just to see the difference. So what happens is you're partially, when you take it to 65, you're partially pasting, partially swelling the starch, but you haven't completely gotten all the starch, you know, fully, you know,
+
+[35:09] swell with water and paste it out yet, right? And so what you're really doing is just adding a boat ton more water to the bread than you can do any other
+
+[35:18] way, the same, because if you had added that much water to it, without pre-cooking it, you'd lack structure. The water, by pre-swelling the starch, gives you enough structure to form the bread and allow it to cook properly without it. That's it. That's basically what it's doing. Wouldn't you guys agree, just from the description I've given, that's what's happening? Undoubtedly. So it's like a super hydrated... Yeah. So you could, so, you know, you could take something and have the workability of like a 70 or 80% hydration dough, but you could be hydrating it kind of much higher.
+
+[35:52] Now, I don't know what the difference is. I'm passing this, Harold, you can't do this. This is boiled after it's cooled. And this is basically, uh, so this is boiled and um, this is the same ratio. It's pretty much turned to a gel after it's gone back. So that might be a hindrance to the dough. And then this here is the 65 degree and that's still more like a pudding or runny. They're very different. And so my feeling is, folks, is that don't bother. What you're doing here is you're just allowing yourself to add more water to the dough. I mean, that's basically what you're doing and maintaining the same workability. That's what's happening here. There might be some other, like, fancy dance stuff that's happening when it's, uh, not fancy dance, but, you know, fancy dance. Uh, the, um, as it's as it's coming up, but that's basically what's happening. As for the temperature, I don't think you have to be too anal because the wheat starch is just going to start swelling and pasting when it hits about
+
+[36:52] 60, 65, C. So if you just take it off, as soon as it goes super, like, uh, thick, but, like, as soon as it starts to thicken up on you, you're going to be good, uh, because, you know, I really wouldn't worry that
+
+[37:05] much uh, about, you know, and also, if you're going to cool it for a long time, I don't know whether or not you're working on the fact that it's retrograding to get the extra
+
+[37:14] structure or you're getting what's called starch setback to add extra structure, in which case maybe it would make a difference. If you heated it longer or not. These are all interesting subjects, but I'd have to actually bake some bread to figure that
+
+[37:25] out. And I didn't have time to do that this morning. I'm just as curious about the use of the word ru here. I think of a roux, you cooking flour and a fat, but this is essentially, is any roux, like a slur, a flour slurry that is then cooked, whether it's in a water or a
+
+[37:42] thing? Not that I know of. Harold, do you know of why they use this kind? Can you any guesses on this terminology or? Oh, I think Daniel is right that Aru is flour cooked in fat. Yeah. not in water. And then added to, and then liquid added to it to, and then presumably
+
+[37:59] the cooking and fat, right, is to prevent clumping when you add the liquid. I mean, the only purpose of the fat, right, is to prevent clumping, that's all it's doing, right? Is there any other reason for it other than it allows you to evenly heat the flour up to a higher stage of cooking? Oh, I bet it makes a difference for the flavor, you know, even a neutral oil, you're going to get reactions to take place that wouldn't happen if it was just dry heat. In, uh, yeah, okay. Fair. So different flavor from adding the oil afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Fair enough. All right. Anyway. And this also, obviously, you could do this with non-wheat starches and all sorts of other things as other people have done. It's an interesting thing. It's worth, it's worth some experimentation. Now, uh, I don't know, uh, Harold, if you have to, if you have to go or if you can stay, uh, but uh, we got a question. Daniel wrote a article on niximalization for the serious seats. Correct? What's your current title there anyway? Oh, culinary director? Culinary director. Okay. And you wrote an article on next normalization, very kindly, actually gave a shout out to an article I had written a lot. Well, yeah, because I used it heavily for information. So, um, for those of you that don't know, nixonization is the process uh, by which you um, cook, you can do it with other grains actually, but you
+
+[39:25] part, you par cook corn in uh, in an alkaline environment. Park hook in an alkaline environment, it dissolves the coat on the outside of the
+
+[39:36] corn partially dissolves it. You partially then rub that off. It changes the taste, it changes the reality of it. Originally, it was designed to allow you to be able to grind corn easily by hand on a stone thing called a matate, but it is the reason that
+
+[39:50] cornmeal doesn't taste like a tortilla, and then a tortilla tastes like a tortilla, is the process of dixonalization. is also the, the changes that the corn goes through, in terms of partial cooking of the starches, going back to what we were talking about with this, with this roux, whatever you want to call it, bread technique. And the change of the outside of the sea coat into some form of weird hydrocolloid, plus the addition of the fat from the germ, because it's a whole corn kind of a situation, all of that together makes masa, which is what makes an awesome tortilla. Normally, it is a pain in the butt to make, Daniel, you posted a recipe where you used a food processor and what was your secret? I know what it is. I'm just asking you to ask, is your... Right. So I mean, the big challenge for people at home is grinding the corn properly. Um, and, uh, you know, you can try a food processor, but that comes with its own challenges, mainly that in order to get everything in the food processor to to spin sufficiently enough to grind it to a point where you can form tortillas, you have to add too much water to the
+
+[40:50] mix, and then you have a, then you have a masa that's that's far too wet, uh, and almost bordering on a batter type consistency. Actually, more like a hummus, think of like a hummus. You can't really make tortillas from that. So then basically, adding, adding some masa, arena,
+
+[41:09] uh, back in, which is, which is the store-bought convenience product of, of,
+
+[41:15] uh, masa that, what do they do? They dry it somehow and turn it into a flower. Yeah, they have a large production line where they have like continuous, basically nixtamilization, goes through a soap tank, then
+
+[41:25] they, then they, I think, I don't know, I think they dry it and grind it. I don't think that they. Harold, do you know? I don't think that they wet. I don't think they wet grind it and then and then dry it. I think they dry it and then grind it. Yeah, I'm not sure. So maybe like ground posola or something like that. Yeah. sort of like dried. Yeah. But not hasn't already been it hasn't been reboiled up to the large. Yes, but yes, the I think that's how they do it. I don't know. I used to know, but, you know, it's been a long time. I mean, look, as you point out in your article, like, just buying Maseca. Look, it's Masarina, Maseca is like the brand name, that, you know, that everyone gets, Quaker also makes one. Uh, there's a, there's a bunch of people that make them. And it is a large step above um, a large step above um, buying uh, pre-made tortillas. Once you heat a tortilla. and let it cool down again and then put it in your fridge, you have lost. You've lost. Yeah they're horrible. They good for frying. Yeah, you can fry them up. Yeah, they're good for frying. They're good. Yeah, you know, fry them, make chiliquiles, do something like this, but like for like actually eating, no freaking bueno, right? Now, they, Masa Harina is, you know, Maseca is a very, is good. It's much better than a pre-made tortilla, which most of the pre-made tortillas that you are getting are 1st insult is they are made with maseca. And the 2nd one is that they have cooked them like a week ago and added a bunch of stuff so that it can sit
+
+[43:05] basic, at room temperature fundamentally, molding in its own, like, plastic container, you know. Yeah, you ever notice that sometimes they smell like ammonia? Yeah, because they're all doped up with stuff to stop them from going off on you. But that's, you know, all of those smells go away when you fry them. That's why those are the only chips I use for frying. There's no excuse to buy tortilla chips pre-fried tortilla chips. They're not as good. And they're really freaking expensive. Right. Unless you need a lot. I could see an argument if you were doing a party, you need to fill a huge chip bowl for your guac with, you know, That's when I start frying is when I do that. Because like, think about it this way. You're buying a 20 ounce bag of like medium quality tortilla chips is
+
+[43:53] going to run you like four something dollars, I think, at a store, right? And you could buy one of those like well over. I forget how much those stacks of tortillas are, but they're over 20, way over 20 ounces, right? And they're thicker, better, and they're like a dollar. And it's so fast to fry them. Most of my home frying now, Connecticut, I have my deep fryer,
+
+[44:20] but, you know, at home home, I do most of my frying and wok. The reason is, is, um, oil expansion is a lot less dangerous in a walk because it's constantly increasing its diameter as it goes up. So people, as long as you don't overfill your walk, you have a lot of safety room on oil expansion when you're
+
+[44:37] working, and tortillas are the most forgiving thing on earth to fry, because all you're trying to do is expel the water and get them crunchy. So you oil, oil and walk. I think I've said this before, too, take the tortillas out, do the back break, snack, snack, break them, individually separate them, cut them and say, fry
+
+[44:52] them, done. Like, I could crank out in under 20 minutes, I could have, you know, big shopping bag, 30. You know, like shopping bags full of tortilla chips. Really, like, it's one of the few things at home that I would recommend frying at home is much easier than doing any other way.
+
+[45:09] But anyway, the point is, is that someone asked me, should I try this recipe that you
+
+[45:14] wrote? And my answer is yes. It's like, is it worth making, like, making your own next to
+
+[45:19] all, the next to all parts, not hard. It's the grinding that's a pain in the butt. Definitely. I mean, maybe the hardest part, aside from the grinding issue is just getting the corn. Oh, yeah, behind the corn. You look, you can't, it's not easy. It's harder even to grind. You can literally try it at home with popcorn. It's not as good, but it is doable. It's doable? Yeah. Oh wow. It's harder even to grind and the endosperm to skin ratio is
+
+[45:47] not ideal, but to just to try it once, you can. I've done it. Um, the, so yeah, but you said you can get the corn now on Amazon, no? Yeah, oh, yeah, you totally can. It's just like a £25 bag. It's a lot of corn. But, you know, I think if you look around there, there are sources, especially I think even at farmers markets now where you have these people selling, you know, they're fancy little bags of grain, you might be able to find it or, yeah, online sources
+
+[46:17] or, I don't know, get going, go in on it with a friend and divvy up a large bag. I mean, the other thing is it keeps forever as long as you keep it in good condition. Now you're going to make me say it forever. I've got to go, I have to see this. But anyway, the hard part is really grinding. If you try to grind, you just can't grind at the right texture in a food
+
+[46:37] processor, even, like, you know, as the motor is about to burn out, you can't do it, it's just like a nightmare. So I think it's entirely legitimate, uh, to do your next
+
+[46:47] symbolization, and then, uh, over wet grind it and dope it back with like masa. So like for like how much mass are you adding back typically? It depends, it really depends how much water you add to the food processor. And I was eyeballing it every time because it just, I don't know,
+
+[47:02] didn't seem like it needed to be so precise and different. Even if I got that precise, someone else has different corn, it's gonna have different requirements. Um, so it depends, but I would say, I'm guessing, maybe you end up, it's ballpark a quarter to a 3rd, uh, Maseca, Masa Arena, and the rest is your freshly
+
+[47:22] nextimilized, uh, masa. And I, and you get, you really do get that fresh
+
+[47:29] Nixemal flavor, even with the addition of the Masa Arena to, to soak up that excess moisture. All right, so we're about to get kicked off here, but let me just say a couple things on the way out. Thank you, Harold, for coming on the show. Thank you, Daniel and Peter. I didn't know Peter was going to be on. You get a limited edition cooking issues, blue tape key ring there, Daniel, and hashtag always label. You can fill that up. That's feet of blue tape. And then when you're done with it, you pull this quick pin out and this fits... Yeah, this fits on the, on the hex drive of like a, you know, a drill bit, like
+
+[48:08] a, like a Phillips head thing, and then you can refill it with tape, and you're good to go again. Uh, so thanks for coming on, talking about next to mom, man, Thanks. Thanks, Harold. Thanks, Peter. A couple tips on the masa. Masa is a whole grain, so there is fat in it. So store it like it might go rancid. In other words, don't keep it forever after you've opened it. Have you ever had that problem? Uh, anyone, anyone? Like, if you have it for years open. It's going to take a musty kind of rancid note to it. You mean the flower? Yeah, the maseca, the masa harino. I wouldn't I wouldn't open it and then leave it on your shelf for the rest of time. That's a good tip. I don't know that I've ever... This is the guess. I've smelled some old stuff and it started smelling cardboardy to me and then I pitched it and got and got new. Also, don't be too quick to add the water in the food processor. Let it grind and add in small increments because a little bit of water goes a long way. You agree with me on that? Yeah, sure, for sure. All right, thanks, everyone, coming back next week with cooking issues.
+
+[49:13] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[49:23] stored by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm, Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm. For more information, visit Nettle, Meadow, Cheese and Spirits.com. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Raider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from
+
+[0:38] Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 1245, 1250. Have with me today the okay, so 1st of all, got Jackie Molecules, thank goodness, is in the booth. We don't have him for that much longer in the booth because he's going to go out, you know, touring on the road there. How you doing, Jack? I You know who you don't have in the studio today? Two people that we don't have in the studio today that we're supposed to have in the studio are
+
+[1:02] Nastasia de Hammer Lopez. Now, Nastasia, her sister graduated from Yale this week. Congrats. Yeah, congrats. So she was driving back from Connecticut and the hydraulic clutch in the car she borrowed from her buddy. Luke who lives in New York and has a stick shift. It's freaking. really funny you bring that up because I'm looking for somebody with a stick shift because I have to drive stick in Iceland and I don't know how. I can't find anybody with a stick shift in New York. know why? To prove your point. Yeah, right, exactly. It gets you off the when a light turns green, you're always the 1st one to, you know, if you have to vie with another car for position, if you have a stick shipped, even if it's like a VW bug, you will beat any top of the line sports car with the acceleration from 1st to second, boom, you
+
+[1:46] can, you just go very fast. What about when you're stop and go on the FDR? Then you get like hip problems over many years. Yeah, anyway, so what I'm saying is, so it burns out. And so she's not, she's not here right now. I think I think she lost hydraulic pressure. a hydraulic clutch in the car that she was driving. Anyways, but Is she okay? Yeah, yeah, she's fine. she didn't get hit. No, no, she's pulled off the side of the road. What was not working? The accelerated the brake? No, so if you're, so the hydraulic system on the, on the clutch, if you, basically, if there's a leak in the system, it just leaks
+
+[2:17] pressure, and the clutch pedal falls to the floor. Now ordinarily, you can still kind of get moving. She smelled burning, which at 1st she thought was the plate actually burning during driving, but, you know, after further
+
+[2:28] thinking, We think it's probably the burning oil that was leaking out that she was smelling. But a lot of times with a hydraulic clutch when it goes, you can get it to run. You just can't use the clutch, but you can get it to run and go, but she wasn't able to get it to go. But here's the good part. So for those of you that know our section of the country, the east coast, I 95 is the road that runs. It's a flaming sack of crap. There's usually 2 or 3 trucks on fire at any given time. often literally a flaming sack of crap. Yes. So anyway, so for those of you that drive like through Connecticut, along 985 or the merit, I 95 or the merit, there is a town with a sign that I love. It's my anus. And my anus is... Yeah, yeah, it's next to Coscob. So you can do like cornhole myenus chokes constantly. And whenever there's traffic in Mayenas, I never, ever fail to say, heavy traffic through my anus, like every single time, even if it's just my dog in the car with me, I say it every
+
+[3:29] time. So literally her car, she had a breakdown in my anus. Oh, wow. What are the chances? Yeah. That's good. This is going to be the butt of a lot of jokes, that's for sure. Oh, nice, nice. Nice. So instead of Nastasia, we have our fearless leader, Patrick Martin's
+
+[3:50] here. I will be like Nastasia. I will say next to nothing. Wow. And make scary faces. Boom. Now, who we don't have in the studio right now, and I tweeted out twice that he would be here, so hopefully he will arrive. I don't know, Jack, maybe we can try to call him on the telephone and see what's up. We put the search team out. Yeah, put the search team out for it. Now, Jack, you have a connection to Mr. Lahey through a certain babysitting gig? Is that true? tell the people who it is first. We got Jim Lahey supposed to be here right now. Jim Lahey is the guy who started Sullivan Street bakery over
+
+[4:23] 20 years ago now, I think. Yeah, we have no need for Jim today. Well, we'll get to that event. This is like pun central right here going. But the, uh, so the, the point is, is that, um, you know, for those of you that are, you know, my age or so, like, you know, in your 40s, you can remember what New York was like when the bread here pretty much sucked.
+
+[4:44] I mean, there were people who baked good bread, but like in general, the bread game in New York. It was Wonder Bread in the mid 70s. I mean, the 1st guy on the Upper East Side, which is very wealthy neighborhood was Eli Zabar. He had a place called EAT on 80th and Madison, and that was the 1st place that really baked, you know, fresh bread, you know, passed a few loaves at a kind of
+
+[5:04] a cookie store, something like that. But yes, you could not find fresh bread, even in New York City back then. No, I mean, then in the 90s, you had like, I guess, which I guess when he started, right? The 90s? No, well, Eli's was... Jim Sullivan Street. 20, 25 years, I think. Yeah. At the same time, you had like Amy's starting. Remember, Amy's Amy's bread started around the same time on that. was the kind of area, but I don't know if they sold loaves to go. Anyway, Amy's had a wholesale and a retail. Amy's famous bread was the cornmeal one with raisins in it. Oh, yeah, I used to get that on Saturday because I used to live right by her bakery. Anyway, point is that back in the day, nowadays, it used to be when you travel to New York, you're like, hey, it's a great town. bread sucks. You know what I mean? Seriously, like you would say that. You would expect that the bread you got on the table at a restaurant would suck. You would expect that the bread you would get out at a place, even a cheese shop, you'd expect. I mean, don't even start on the cheese shops, you would expect that they would suck, right? It was like Tuscany over here. Well, which is what we're supposed to be talking about today. But so anyway, so Jim Jim Lahey was one of the kind of early people making decent bread here in New York and Sullivan
+
+[6:13] Street. I remember it was a, a Revelation when I had it the 1st time I went there in the, in the 90s, uh, mid mid 90s, I guess, I had their Bianca, the Pizza Bianca, and it was the only thing like what I had had over on my honeymoon in
+
+[6:26] Italy. It was good stuff. Anyway, so very crusty bread, right? For the most part. What, his breads, yeah. Oh, so like the the stuff his signature breads he's known for now are probably like the Polliesi style, the Filoni, which is the huge one and the semi-de-Sesimo, which is the basically Polliesi with sesame seeds all over the outside, which is my personal favorite.
+
+[6:45] So these are the signature breads that you'll see at a lot of restaurants and there's, you know, he, they had a split. So there's another bakery, another couple of bakeries that make his particular style of bread here in New York. He became famous generally among, you know, folks, people,
+
+[6:58] for his no need with a K, not no need to bake
+
+[7:03] bread. Like, there's no necessity to make. needs But no need, uh, no need, which is, you know, my editor actually, Marie Guanashelli did his book also at Norton, and she's the one that came up with the tagline underneath it, no work, no need, no
+
+[7:19] work bread. So it sold more bread books than anyone's ever sold in the past because it was like, Brett, no work. Bread? What? You know what I mean? And so they sold so many of these things. Um, but the, the, the, the, oh, did, did he, did he get here? No. No, no, no. look for him, though. So the, um, anyway, the point being that he kind of uh, championed this, uh, this style, uh, which I don't, you know, I actually don't know where he came up with it, whether it was taught to him or or
+
+[7:45] what. If he ever shows up, we'll ask him. I think he is a self-made man. I think he learned it all myself. Although I'm saying that with no knowledge of the issue whatsoever. I think he's a self-made man. But you have no actual knowledge of the cooking issue. whatsoever. Yeah. So the, so anyways, the point being is a very influential person in the world of
+
+[8:04] bread. In fact, you know, most people I know, so 1st of all, there's 2 things that happen. There's no need thing came at a time when a lot of people, especially pizza people that I, because I don't know as many bread bakers as I
+
+[8:17] knew kind of people who, in the kind of pizza world, they, you know, were shifting to extreme long fermentations and retarding of dough when
+
+[8:25] they're, when they're making it. And, um, Obviously, the longer you let something rise, the less you need to need,
+
+[8:32] right? And so I think that we've all shifted towards this kind
+
+[8:37] of a lot of people have shifted towards these longer time format breads with less needing and less
+
+[8:42] work is the only thing it takes is a little bit of foresight. So why do they do it just for the work issue or for gastronomic reasons? No, no, I mean, look, the thing about the, the no need style, and I wish he was, you know, here to, like, talk about it, he hopefully will be, is the, um, is that if you just let the bread rise for a long time, 2 things happen.
+
+[9:03] One, the longer, like a short ferment means that you have a lot of yeast in it, right? And so this tends to produce a relatively, um, single, simple profile taste, right? Because there's less kind of the yeast is doing less to work on the base product, which is the flour. So the longer you raise, the longer it takes to, to, to, um, ferment, usually the more complex, complex the flavor. The more the flower has the chance to express itself. That's an interesting way. See, this is why Patrick Martin's was the founder of slow food USA because he comes up with these poetic terms like the flower expressing themselves. You know what I mean? It's like, for me, I'm like such a technical head, like, you know, I don't do the, you know, the poetic. That's why we should come on off and give you the poetry of the flower. Slow food. Yeah, well, we play each other off. Remember our sizzle together? We did good. We played... like the old school guy. You're like the new school guy. I got to call her if we want to do that while we wait. Uh, okay. Call her. on the air. Call her, call her, you there? You're on the air. Oh, hey, sorry about that. Um, as a former cook and uh, current restaurant manager, I get a lot of questions about gluten free and
+
+[10:14] gluten friendly. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, um, how that breaks down under high heat specifically
+
+[10:22] in pizza ovens or deep fryers. You mean how gluten-free, how gluten-free coatings work in frying? Well, so like, if I'm putting items into a deep fryer that are not gluten free, like how does that gluten that comes
+
+[10:39] off, those items break down in the fryer, if at all? Oh I got you. So you're worried about the fact that you use the same fryer for your regular products as you use for your gluten-free
+
+[10:50] stuff. You know what? Oh, the bread's here, by the way. You know what? I've never thought about it. Before, my guess is that it's not a
+
+[11:01] problem, because the gluten, while it's not really water soluble, I also don't think it's oil soluble. I think it's just non-soluble. So I don't think you're going to solubleize the gluten in your in your fat oil. You do get particles. So it all depends on how clear your, you know, your fat is, but I would guess that your main problem is going to be a straight up,
+
+[11:24] uh, straight up contamination. So if you're having straight up contamination product problems,
+
+[11:29] but, you know, assuming in a commercial frying situation, you're frying in a tube fryer that has a cold zone and most of that stuff is sifting down to the bottom of your fryer
+
+[11:38] anyway. So I would say, and considering the fact that that gluten, um, even like straight up celiac,
+
+[11:45] oh, Jim brought my favorite oil. How the hell did you know that was my favorite oil? What is wrong with you? Um, the, uh, any, from DiPolo's, my favorite place on earth. Oh my goodness. To conclude, the good news is you never have to wash your fry. No, no, no, no, no. So my point is, is that most people's responses to gluten is our mediator. In other words, in other words, it's like, it's not that like, it's not that a tiny amount of gluten is going to wipe them out.
+
+[12:09] But that said, I think that if you're worried about it, it's always prudent to add this kind of thing. fried in a fryer that also fries items with gluten. And then your gold. You know what I mean? Like push it back on. In other words, like, I wouldn't be worried that you're actually gonna hurt somebody, but I would also push it back onto the consumer so that you're not trying to hide anything from them. I think that's always the safest way to go. What do you think? Anyone? Yeah, it sounds good. I mean, I didn't, I wasn't too worried about it, but I didn't have a very good answer for people that were going to ask me either. Yeah, I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, look, a lot of people have never cooked before, so they don't really understand how it works. They'd never fried before. So it's true. When you're frying something that, you know, especially if you do any dry fry
+
+[12:54] stuff, uh, that's not a batter, like even a batter, you're throwing stuff off of the batter stuff when
+
+[12:59] it, when it, especially when it 1st goes in, but anyone who's ever fried before knows that there's extra pre-dust on the outside, there's extra
+
+[13:06] stuff, it's usually a lot of fried items aren't a straight liquid batter.
+
+[13:11] And even in a straight liquid batter, let's say you're going tempura on it, right? You're getting all those little blebs of crap that fry off. And I don't know anyone on earth who's ever fried anything that hasn't gotten a piece of the last fry occasionally in their life stuck onto the fry that they have now, right? I mean, come on, let's be honest. But the fact of the matter is, it's a small amount. I think as long as you're, and if you know you're frying something that is gluten free, you can be pretty scrupulous about the skin beforehand. And once this stuff is skimmed. the rest of the stuff falls to the bottom of the cold zone, and you're not going to do the person. I don't think any any harm. Right? All right, anyone? Anyway, so thanks for that. But now we have to talk about the bread. And if you have any no need bread questions. We have what? Well, my God, he comes in, he brings, but now he has to pee. Like this is. All right, so we'll hold off. I'll fill many more bread questions. Before we talk, I'll wash my hands. Okay, okay. Even though he's not an employee of Roberta's, he's not going to wash his hands. What, you say he's not going to wash his hands? He will wash his hands. He's in no urine facility. His bread has no urine in it, which is great. Okay, so no patina urin. This happens to the label. If this is the oil that I'm thinking of. Why is it your favorite? That's because of the breed of olive, of course. It's the favorite. So here's what happens. Every year, it's not oil is an agricultural crop, as we own. It goes up and down and changes. So for a bunch of years, my favorite oil was made by, I forget, the guy's name was, starts with a G. Like, he used to make the oil for Fontana Salsa, which was the supplier in Sicily that made this mix of
+
+[14:55] Nocholara, um, my God, what was the other one? Nochalara. And 2 other olives that they grow in in Sicily. And that was like my favorite oil because I like, I'm heavy on,
+
+[15:09] I like green. I like, like herby grassy green with a lot of bite. typically, not always. But anyway, so like, and so whenever I go to buy a new thing of oil of like finishing oil or eating oil, I'm just like, hey, what do you got that I like?
+
+[15:24] And like this is one of the ones, I think, if it's the one I'm thinking of, this is, um... Where do you shop for your oil? I used to go to Fairway because I always love Steve Jenkins, but I don't think he does anything with Fairway anymore. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. Yeah, I know he doesn't. Yeah, fairway has changed. I mean, did they just file? Yeah, file for bankruptcy, too. For real? Yeah. Well, I thought they were still expanding. But they're not closing somehow as a restructuring, but they did file for bankruptcy. That's good. Um, so it's, um, yeah? It's, uh, I buy it at Apollo's. Listen, if you're ever in New York City, right? And you like Italian products, then you have to go to Depollos on Grand Street and MOD. I mean, they've been there for 8000000 years. Well, like 90. they moved across the street is as far as as they went. And, um, But I was asking, my wife was a cheesemonger, if their European cheeses are the best of their kind, are
+
+[16:22] they there? Because, I mean, some of these old historic places, they don't get the best cheeses that you're
+
+[16:27] producing. gets the best of what they get. In other words, it's like, it's like the best, DePalos will get the best that is legally illegally available. Like Lou and Sal and Marie, who are the, you know, the most of the family that runs along with their wives, the kids and the cousins and Renee, which is another guy there who works
+
+[16:45] there. They have this thing where they don't like to break the law. And so unlike a lot of other cheese folks, they won't, like, on the slide, bring in stuff that's not legal or not. They also like will never lie to you. They'll also never sell you a product that's over the hill. So like the fact of the matter is, and you know what's coming in today? Apollos, I don't know if I'd known you were going, do you know the Marcelino's in today? No it's not. Oh, it's not in? That's what I was going for. Oh, really? the Marcelina. Am I on? I wanted the Marzolino, right? That's what I was going for because I realized that in order to show off this really mediocre example of Tuscan bread. And by mediocre example of Tuscan bread, I mean, it's just like you would get in Tuscany. And so to understand the bread, you have to understand the cuisine that
+
+[17:28] it's that it functions for, that it lives for. So I think that's my approach. Now, on a scale of one to 10, I would rate this for my task, my best testing
+
+[17:41] game, like a four. Wait, so what's your best Tuscan game rate? Like, I would say I'm very... Well, well, I mean, I'm, you know, if I can get a 7 on any loaf of bread. I'm really happy. I'm very contented. An 8 or 9 is, is, you know, sometimes happens,
+
+[18:01] but, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, as we all know in the food business, it's all about consistency, right?
+
+[18:05] And as we all know, good cooks, good bakers all hate themselves. Oh, come on please. No, because you never think you never think... You never think you never think you're perfect. You never you never think you've reached anything perfect. We can always, there's always room for improvement. It's like that last cocktail that you just mixed, that you were, you know, you taste, and you're like, you know, I just could have like put a little bit more vermouth in that, in
+
+[18:30] that, uh, in that, uh, um, give me a vermouth drink, David. A martini. Let me ask you, why can't you duplicate a 9 all the time? Wait, before we get this? Two things. One, people want to know, is the character in trailer park boys named after you? Wait, I'm gonna do one thing real quick. That's the bread being sliced. And two, don't go through your knee. Oh my god. terrible. That would be the 3rd time that's ever happened. in the studio. So the, uh, 0 my god, you know what? Do you remember like in college when those people who'd never sliced bagels before started slicing bagels and they would slice the bagel into their hand and bleed all over everything?
+
+[19:14] Yeah. awesome times. I learned I learned to have incredible respect for meat slices at the age of
+
+[19:21] 15 because I cut my fingertip off. Oh yeah, me too. The only real damage I've done. Yeah. I did a thumb into the meat slicer once. Me too. Slide down. Boom. It's because I was on the cell phone, though. my fault. And never use a knife that's dull. That's the worst. to try to take out an avocado pit. Oh, when you glance off? No, I cut my thumb wide open. because the knife didn't go. blade didn't hit the seed. Right. Bounced off and then took a chunk of my head off. Okay, so let me set this up real quick. So we're at the museum of food and drinks benefit and Mofad. And Patrick and Jim are at the same table. And they were arguing over who was the straight man in the team.
+
+[20:02] And that, which is kind of like an interesting thing. And I said, hey, you know, I love your bread, obviously, I have for a long time, don't you think Tuscan bread sucks? And expecting a yes, because everyone thinks it sucks because it contains no salt. Yeah, it's like nobody, I said, nobody likes Tuscan breads. Tuscan don't like Tuscan bread. The epicenter of... We're dining at tables began. Ground 0 as far as his food historians know, of where the ritual, ritualized meal of everyone sitting around a table was born. Also, the Italian language itself was born out of Tuscany. came out of that place. I forgot. Tantejo, is it? So you guys can't see what I'm looking at, but this looks like a Tuscan loaf, i.e. the crust looks terrible, and the crumb is not nearly as nice as the normal crumb in the Sullivan
+
+[20:55] Street breads. You have to qualify your language. It's the end of the day. Busy is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, it's okay, look it this way. I won't say anything. It is sallow and dry looking. But it's, but it's a mop. It like it sucks sauce up. Well, it's also... consider it this. I mean, this did not ferment. This is an organic wheat from a small mill in Minneapolis called
+
+[21:20] sunrise, flour mill. And I didn't, I'm not used to working with it. It's not like my, I don't work with this flower. I was sent a sample of some wheat for MoFab, which it went into those loaves that we made for the event. Which were delicious. And I miss... And I missed my mark by about 20 minutes to a half an hour in terms of ideal fermentation, which would have
+
+[21:46] made a
+
+[21:50] real big difference in terms of what you see in terms of the crime structure. However, that being said, when you eat bread in Tuscany, and it's made from local grain. And this is also an argument about the aesthetics of bread and our expectations about bread, especially bread made in
+
+[22:07] the local, original grain economy, where the quality of the wheats are not going to be consistent from season to season. And oftentimes, especially with weather like we have today when it occurs in like August or
+
+[22:22] September, during harvest season. Harvest, harvest periods, will most likely lead to wheat that has a lesser quality
+
+[22:33] protein in terms of its ability to ferment because when there's humidity, you end up on dry wheat
+
+[22:40] stalks. You oftentimes end up with like incidental germination. And that germination destroys the quality. It doesn't cut into the percentage of protein in the flour and isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's natural. It's what really occurs when you really farm and you're not springing life is staying your crops to
+
+[23:00] for harvesting to kind of make them more sellable, you
+
+[23:05] know, which is fine. So charmingly inconsistent, you would say. Well, I mean, that's what we'd have to get used to. Well, do you like, do you like, do you ever bake with germinators, sprouted grains? Um, sometimes for, for, like, you know, for my own head, man, you know? Am I allowed to just taste this as is or not? I mean, we should taste it as this. Do I need a spiel to make it taste good? No, no, no, spiel. I don't want to like, oh, this is grown in, like, you know, some, like, farm upstate New York in the, in the Champlain River Valley and da, da, whatever. I mean, I could go off on this whole fucking story, but at the end of it, it's family show. I'm sorry, is it? No more. Yeah, family show. Is it? I have a caller on the line. For gym, actually. Okay, I'm in the wrong place. We have a caller on the air, but before the caller gets on, let me just, I'll give you the taste description. Do I need to put this? Yeah, put it on. Put it on suit, you hear. It's more fermented than most Tuscan loaves I've had. Now, it's got a higher turn. you turn the headphones up on gyms, I think. Turn it down. Oh, turn it down. It's more, it's got more acidity than most of Tuscan loaves that I've had. And true to form, it tastes like it needs some freaking salt in it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, well, there's, I would say I was, just calculated, just calculating. There's about a 3rd
+
+[24:22] of one% of salt. So isn't even a percent of salt, but based on the batch, maybe even a 10th of a percent of salt
+
+[24:33] in the dough. And what's your normal salt percentage? Breads in general that we're used to eating anywhere from a percent and a half to 2.5
+
+[24:42] sometimes. Are you part of that more modern 2.5%? I'm more percent and I'm not a one percenter, but I'm more in the percent and a half. I like to taste the grain. And were you a one% or would you be a Wall Street one% or a motorcycle gang one%? Well, I mean, it's well, here's the thing. It's really not the one%. It's the one tenth. I going to sell. I'm going to sound like Bernie Sanders now. It's the one-tenth of the of the one% that control 48% of the wealth of our
+
+[25:10] nation. And you didn't realize you're going to have Bernie Sanders. good. It was good. Can you also do the? Can you also do the Yardvark from the Aardvark cartoon? There's a there's a call. a color. I don't want to miss a call or you're on the air for Jim. Hi, Jim and Dave, this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa. Dude, how's it going? Good. How are you? Doing well. So I've been baking a lot of bread and both kind of straight Levon style or whatever term you like to
+
+[25:39] use and then also hybrid using, you know, incorporating some commercial yeast. And I've specifically been interested in trying to manipulate how the starter, the ferment is
+
+[25:50] fed, held, what hydration is kept at. Because there's a lot of, there are a lot of claims out there, let's say, about how that will affect structure, flavor, complexity.
+
+[26:02] And so I, I, I traveled down this, say that again. viscosity is a, there's no, like, fixed thing on viscosity, as I was saying before with regional wheats. If you want to control the outward appearance of the product and your wheat, for example, varies in 13% or quality, which
+
+[26:22] can in turn change the absorption. One of the factors that can change and alter the absorption, which therefore affects the visciolasticity of the dough, i.e. its texture when a very precise amount of liquid has been added to it, I would be more concerned as a bread baker or craft baker, with the apparent viscio elasticity of the dough,
+
+[26:46] than getting caught up with, whoa, I put exactly, you know, 85% hydration, because you might get a great
+
+[26:55] bread out 75% hydration if the wheat is of a different quality. And I think that, you know, and in terms of how you hold a sourdough starter, the thicker and drier, the pre-ferment, the more gradual and slower, the rate of fermentation, the more water, the quick, the, the, the, more uh,
+
+[27:18] ferment. So what are things? Because I tried to start testing variables specifically with that and realize like doing side by side and realize it would just take an eternity to actually nail down the way all of these could potentially affect each
+
+[27:35] other. So I'm wondering if you can speak to specifically how feeding, holding, and the hydration level or the viscosity, like you're saying, of the actual pre-ferment and how that's tended to, how can that affect
+
+[27:49] the specifically the balance of lactic acid? Let's go, let's go this way. If you if you go online, you can buy these really cool pH meters that you can attach to your
+
+[28:04] iPhone and it can upload an app. those work? Do those work? They do. If the caliber might assist him shaking his head, like, no fucking way. You can also buy, there are there are pH meters that you can use to test the pH of
+
+[28:19] the dough. You will find a correlation between a finished dough. You'll find a range or correlation between the pH of the dough, because, you know, what happens, you mix the dough together and the pH will initially dip a little bit, like within the 1st 15 to 20 minutes, and then it will go up, it will arc upward, like, like,
+
+[28:47] say, 6%, I say, like, 6 pH. And then eventually over. You're talking about during the fermentation or during the baking? Yeah, all those. Whenever you add flour and water together and you allow and you have some agent fermenting agent, be it commercial yeast. Or if I was like, Bernie Sanders, if you want a fermentation agent. Sorry. I've been on this whole Bernie Sanders kick lately. You know that he's the only electable. I know I'm getting even more headshakes for my. Not a political show. Oh, shit. Okay. Because the shit won't, negative ads won't stick with him, but they're going to stick with Hillary. We'll go back to, um, uh, uh, go back to
+
+[29:31] primitives. So if you measure the pH. You'll see that there's a really precise correlation between the
+
+[29:37] pH of the dough. The length of time it takes for the dough to 11, for example, under whatever, constant, constant conditions,
+
+[29:45] I mean, if your house temperature, room temperature, whatever is, where you use your home oven with the pilot light on as like an incubator.
+
+[29:53] I don't know to what degree of a bred geek you are, but you sound like pretty much, you know,
+
+[30:00] a bread nerd, severe, because you're obsessed, which is good. We're all there. And then, um, and then you'll see like an end result. You'll see a correlation between the pH and the flavor profile. You see a correlation between the pH and the effect that the acidity has on on the doe's ability to the
+
+[30:22] yeast that exists within the doe's ability to leaven, the
+
+[30:29] bread, because a certain pH is the yeast become inactive, i.e. in the lab, they say
+
+[30:35] 4.4, But in, like practically it's like more like 4 point, when you're
+
+[30:42] like 4.6, at least in New York City bread baking, if you're doing sourdough,
+
+[30:46] you're pretty much, you know, dealing with bread that's pretty sour. There's also another factor, which is the tap water, because tap water varies from pH 6.6 and environments that are extremely acidic. And tap water and municipalities can go, I think, as high as eight. But, but, you know, I know. How buffered are those, won't they, won't the actual biological system or the bread take over the tap water pretty quickly
+
+[31:18] or no? Um, well, I mean, you have to factor in the pH of the flower, the pH of the water, and then the rate of the effect of the ferments on the dough, but at least everything that I've read is that when the pH is 4.4,
+
+[31:33] um, that fermentation stops, even if there's available glucose or materials to ferments. It's the acidity itself, which is why a lot of people who maintain and hold starters
+
+[31:45] at too high of a temperature and create these acid cultures are like, I don't know
+
+[31:50] why. I keep adding the story to the dough, but it like just doesn't do anything. It just kind of gets all kind of slack and they make the bread and it tastes really tart because what's going on is
+
+[32:00] there's no fungal. It's just bacterial. It's like a flora. You know, you just have to, you have to maintain the right flora for the starter. And in terms of to answer your question in a circumlocutious
+
+[32:14] way. peripatetic, right? Um, it's really just about, you know, uh, yeasts and microbes
+
+[32:22] are mutating and
+
+[32:26] they will adapt and and become tolerant to conditions that you
+
+[32:31] establish. The ones that we like, the ones that make bread and wine taste
+
+[32:39] good, are the ones that are kind of in the 55 to 68 degree range.
+
+[32:46] And then once you start getting above 68 degrees Fahrenheit, You're gonna start noticing other types of microbes. It's not to say that you can't maintain a store order for a couple
+
+[32:56] weeks, it's 75 degrees Fahrenheit, but eventually it's going to acidify. And that balance between the symbatic relationship between those classes of sacramises and those classes of lactobacilli will change.
+
+[33:11] Is that cool? Do you find it to be a kind of a one-to-one balance of it? The yeast is more active, the the lack of the cell are less
+
+[33:23] active, and vice versa. Well, I mean, there's the other thing is that, you know, it's, you know, when it's feeding time at the zoo, when it's feeding time at the
+
+[33:32] zoo. You know, a starter with a lower pH that's younger, it will react differently with the finished
+
+[33:42] dough, and even that ratio or proportion of pre-ferment to the finished dough.
+
+[33:48] You know, if I had like a half 500 grams, we're going to talk metric,
+
+[33:55] right? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, like, let's say I had 500 grams of flour, and I added 500 grams of, of,
+
+[34:04] like, pre-ferment, levan, liquid, a stiff kind of dough, like what we call, I call biga.
+
+[34:12] Um, and the pH of that dough was like 4.5, 4.3, whatever.
+
+[34:19] Um, hopefully not 3.7 or
+
+[34:24] lower because then it's so acid that the actual pH of the, there's a very, the window would be too small. But if you add like a large ratio of pre-ferment to finished dough, you could even
+
+[34:38] add, like 300 grams of flour, if the pH of the pre-ferment is on the higher side, like 4.6 and up, you could make a dough where there's actually the largest component would be the
+
+[34:54] pre-ferment, and then you're just adding a little bit of flour. and salt to kind of put it together, and your fermentation time would be reduced to like an hour, an hour and a half,
+
+[35:05] say. Okay. Or like a la Nonid or a la the methods that I prescribe mostly for practical purposes, maybe not so
+
+[35:14] practical after all. But if you use a small percentage, let's say that that curve, that window of
+
+[35:22] fermentation is a lot longer, and there's more chances of manipulating
+
+[35:26] it, we're coaxing it to get the right end result that you want. But Jim, to go back to what you were saying, and I mean, to cut into this, but the lower the amount of starter that you're pitching in,
+
+[35:38] right? The less the initial actual acidity matters, but the still the balance of flora in the starter is going to be different if you start with a really
+
+[35:46] ass. In other words, like, If you put like an acid, if you put a highly acidic starter in a dough that was being maintained at like 75
+
+[35:54] degrees, and it's like just basically a bacterial starter. It's not designed. It won't function to leaven the bread. It will function to cause the
+
+[36:05] flour to become the paste, the dough, the pasta, to become acidic. And that's all it's gonna do. I mean, I've seen bakers in Italy that keep their natural leavening in their big
+
+[36:20] shop, like, you know, like 100 degrees all the time, and it's like just inedible acidic crap. By the way, Jim hates Italian bread in general, right? No, I love, I love, I love. No, that's not true. I love Italian. I love it. Didn't you go to Italy and tell them that they're all garbage? No, it's a... No, I went there and
+
+[36:37] I told them that they have a crisis. Carlo Petrini said the same thing. He said the biggest free fall in terms of Italian quality products with either the fast food culture we live in or
+
+[36:52] modernization is with bread. He said they're in a crisis. He said that in 1998, 2000 already. I said it last year. I'm sorry, I'm eating some Toshkin bread with some broccoli, Rob. He also said the same about cheese, and although he was very much responsible for getting Barolo and Barbaresco up. I mean, literally one vineyard trip at the time. He was like, you should age the grapes longer. You should do all these things, cut off the bad grapes, and not use them in the wine. I mean, Barollo and Barbaresco were pretty mediocre wines in the 70s, 80s. So yeah, Carla was saying it about... I've had some Barolo from that era that was freaking delicious. Well, Nebiolo, great. That whole region of barbaresco and stuff. Yeah, some could be delicious, of course, but. By the way, the meat that you brought here, really barnyardy, huh? Patrick loves it. Patrick loves some barnyard is meat. This is amazing. This is, obviously, from De Paulo's, because I can always tell when something's made in Europe with my wife's cheeses. I like, this is a great American cheese domestic is French. This is domestic? I'm very surprised It's excellent. Well, I mean I'm not anymore. I mean, I was going to bring you some of my piggy. My, my, um, Were you buy a whole pig or something? No, I raised 3 pigs last night. I've been doing it for the last 3 years. What breed? Tamworth? Oh, wow. Oh, you like Tam? Well, tams are good mothers, right? So they're easy. They're easier to raise because they won't like squash their kids and like they can feed themselves. My neighbors and I usually get like 5
+
+[38:25] pinklets. I take 3. And then during the summertime, because I have a house upstate in Sullivan County,
+
+[38:31] I, like anytime we're cooking, every day, usually at the end of the day, I head over to the, the, I don't want to call it a pigsty because they have like a little bit of a yard, but then they've got like 2 acres of
+
+[38:42] woods to forage in. So the animals, you know, go the summer, eating vegetable scraps and whatever critters they find as they're rooting up the
+
+[38:52] earth. It's a great bacon hog, the Tamworth. Yeah, yeah. phenomenal meat. I don't... don't muscle up though, right? Yeah, they're a leaner hog. It's very rare that I actually buy, I buy pork from, from, I mean, I only I only eat my own. Well, that'll explain why we haven't gotten any orders from you in the past. Sorry about that. Listen, before this is over, we should talk about the Tuscan bread. Now, listen, I want you to sell me. Now, do you see what I'm saying about the Tuscan bread's function? is really... a blank canvas. Canvas for the food. I'm not buying it. Here's the thing. You can't eat this, right? You can't eat the Pecorino, and you can't eat the oil without wishing instead that we were eating your like
+
+[39:34] semi-de-ecesima. Like, I'm like, oh, you know what I wish? I wish I just had this. I mean, it's SMR. How do you pronounce it? I was in Chelsea. For me, there's, there's, the, the actor... If you want
+
+[39:46] to me, this is very nostalgic. And I actually kind of, in some ways, like my favorite breakfast is Tuscan bread. Saltless butter. And honey. Is that is that like saying that I also like Twinkies? That's even more. It's moder, too. Is there anything I can get a beer? Yeah, beer that your drinking looks really good. You might need some salt. Yeah. Because they're like keeping all the salty food. We're a full service establishment. But, and, you know, we have we have a PhD here in anthropology in sociology, Costas
+
+[40:18] Gunnis, who's flown it all the way from Crete to share with us his insights and thoughts about this discussion.
+
+[40:24] Hi, so give us give us some thoughts on the on the discussion. From a Cretin perspective. I won't get into this. It's out of my field. I'm enjoying it. This is your chance to bash Italy. Let me ask you this. The bread in Crete, they put salt in it, do they not? Yes, they do. What do you think of this particular? You know how good Jim's bread is? What do you think of this? Interesting. I mean, diplomatic, bland. Bland. Also, the crust doesn't have the same... It doesn't have the same... It's like mushy or stretchy. It's dry. Dry. The way it's asking bread is baked. It's baked with no salt or no salt. It's baked, usually, initially, every bakery that does it, the traditional way, tries to maintain a dry oven for the 1st 3 to 7 minutes of the bake.
+
+[41:29] Where by the dough, in this case, because the dough was underfermented, it kind of rounds out a little bit, lifts off the floor of the oven, forms crust or skin on the dough.
+
+[41:41] The opposite of what you would think, like you're not looking for humidity. And then... How do they how do they do that? Do they use a low load in the oven? They either open up the damper and the door? loading in? Or, you know, the whole, and then it's baked between 380 and 400 degrees, depending upon the bakery for a lot longer than you would normally bake.
+
+[42:00] You end up with this... loaf of bread that actually kind of is kind of semi-stale in a
+
+[42:07] way, to begin with, but it doesn't really stale. Like, I can eat this bread in 3 days and it's textually not that different than it is today. It starts off as 2 day old, but it stays... Yeah, but it doesn't, you know, but the idea, what is staleness? Staleness is a perceptual thing. It's an elasticity of the crust. No, it's I mean, yes, Chewier. Well, there's technical explanations and then there's when you eat it, does it taste like garbage? Well, well, no, that's well, that's subjective when you say that somebody's like garbage. It all relative. I mean, for me, Oscar, there's nothing. I'm not saying this is garbage. I mean, like, one of my favorite snacks would be like, this bread, like, I didn't bring, I
+
+[42:45] wasn't going to bring some garlic in a toaster oven, but I couldn't bring all that stuff with me. But just to do Fetunta. You know, just to do the bread, toasted, rubber garlic, a little bit of olive oil. I go one step further. I like to put vinegar on my bread because I don't like vinegar. So you're saying this is actually baked longer, even though the crust colors are a lot lower than what it would normally
+
+[43:06] be because of the. My daughter doesn't like it when I talk with food in my mouth, but I'm going to go for it. Two minute morning, Dave. All right, come on, two. The bread is baked at a lower temperature, which is why the color of the bread is the way it is. Right, right. If there was a higher quantity of salt or any percentage of salt over, over one%, you would end up with the scarring that takes, I call it salt scoring, where the little alveoli that are along the surface of the
+
+[43:38] dough would kind of become places where the salt will crystallize. So you end up having like, you end up seeing, you have seen like bread that's kind of like kind of like pale and white, but it's like overcooked. Yes. That's like a cold, my name for it is salt scarring. And you see like the little white dots. Like if you see dough that's slow fermented or fermented in refrigerators, which is very popular these days. Oh, you don't
+
+[44:02] like you don't like refrigeration retarding? I just, well, I think it's, I think it's a little retarded. Ha, ha, ha. No. I think it's, I think it's, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess. What if someone doesn't do it every day and they realize it's rising too fast. they need to slow it down a little bit It's really convenient that we have refrigeration. It's lovely that we have. a big supporter. I'm a big, yes, you're in the beat this. I mean, you wouldn't say they throw it and throw it in the fridge and the next time pitch less in or what? Well, I mean, you know, as a thing of convenience. Yeah, we have refrigeration, but in general, I like I like live baking. I like the element of risk. I like that I have to kind of be kind of connected to the process of the fermentation so that I can control it without necessarily having to
+
+[44:49] employ, like whatever, a battery of refrigerators increase my carbon footprint. Can I ask one last question? Because it was so interesting to HRNN news. Did you say, I'm just wanting to make a quote, if it's possible, that climate
+
+[45:03] change, and El Nino and global warming could perhaps be negatively affecting the quality of artisan bred around the world?
+
+[45:11] Is there a direct correlation? Did I hear you kind of ended that? No. No, because it's too wrong. still makes me think of Chris Farley. I am El niño. No, of course. But I thought you said weather affects the bread. It could lower the quality of local granaries, ingredients. There's a reason why during our colonial period, excuse me one second. Fucking broccoli raw. One minute, Dave. During our colonial period, wheat was grown everywhere. Brooklyn was like the epicenter of wheat agriculture in in, at least in this state. Yeah, one of the great apples in the world came out of there, but now it's Spitenberg? Spitenberg, yeah. So right now, you know, we can grow, we hear, it's just in our expectation about what good bread is. It's like you can't fit square pegs into round holes without kind of losing a little bit of the
+
+[46:00] squareness, a little bit of the roundness of each. And so I think that our idea about what good bread is needs to change. Like, we're still kind of stuck in this dialogue of like, does it have big holes and
+
+[46:12] stuff and like, does it, you know? You know, we didn't get to. pissing me off. Everyone wants to know, where do they go after the no need technique so that they can use your technique, but build up to make different styles of bread. We not going to have time to get into it. I have a new book coming out and it has a whole thing on using natural leavening for no
+
+[46:28] need. I'm doing it with. When it coming out? God knows. I'm doing it with Maria. Yeah. Well, okay, so look after look after that. But, but you know, it is, it is, it is, it is, it will, it will come out. I know that we're like at the final phases of retesting recipes and hopefully by next year. Do you believe in labeling? Do you like to label things in the kitchen? Um, I personally love labeling. Okay, here, here. Take this. This is a limited edition. Thank you, cooking issues, blue tape keychain. Oh, it's so cute. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for coming on cooking. On the way out, is they're playing the theme? What is the most alarming piece of garbage in the bread world today? What's the worst thing that's happening in bread? Mexican bread besides? the way, Jim has taught us. Jim has taught us, it's not bad. It's different. It's not different. it's different Love things for what they are, but... What is what is what Martin's potato rolls? Oh, that they do taste good, but I mean, I'm not like a, I just think bad bread is bad bread. Fast food is fast food. I'm sorry. I don't care what corporation is behind it. Wow. Cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[47:43] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm, Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm.
+
+[0:08] For more information, visit Nettle, Meadow, Cheese and Spirits.com. That's N-E-T-T-L-E, Meadowcheeseandspirits.com. I'm Erica White, host of Let's Get Real, the cooking show about finding, preparing, and eating food. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:37] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Good News, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every week, Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. The Heritage Radio Network here in Bushwick. How you doing? How you doing, Stas? Yeah? Look crazy on the Bushwick today, huh? Do you know why I have to go crazy on the Bushwick because this is one of Jackie Molecules, Jack Ainsley's last weeks here in
+
+[1:01] Bushwick. Next week is last week. Next week's his last week. Next week will be my last in studio live cooking issues for the time being. Forever. Wow. Forever, says Stas. Yeah. Well, can you, where's my, where's the envoy? The what? Where's the awe voice? Oh, I know, right? All I have is this. I like that. Oh, you want to hear some good news? My phone decided it would be funny to erase all of the stuff that I had prepared to talk
+
+[1:29] today. So I'm going to have to have you call up the questions and then I'll make the answers. No, there's that extra question that you got. And then there's one from last week. All of those. because I didn't get to answer any questions last week because we had Jim Lahey on. You couldn't miss it because you were stuck in my Inis. Right. My in is Connecticut for those of you that weren't tuned in last week. Nastasia borrowed a stick shift. 1993 stick shift sob
+
+[1:53] that, for some reason, one of her friends decides it's a good New York City car to have, and the clutch cylinder leaked its oil, its last breath on the way back to New York City, and she was stuck in the beautiful hamlet of
+
+[2:11] Mahenas, part of Greenwich, Connecticut. Do you know, you lived in Grange for a while? Do they, honestly, because my son, Booker, is like, enough with the
+
+[2:20] bathing humor, dad, you and your precious myenus, is what he says, because we passed a sign all the time, did they pronounce it
+
+[2:26] myenus, or did they pronounce it myenus? I never heard anybody say that word. ever. If there's anyone who lives in the British Connecticut area. We got to find someone who lives around there. Maybe someone from the neighboring Coscob who can tell us... How are you gonna look it up? Do you know that if you look up the pronunciation on there? There's people whose only thing that they do in life is make fake pronunciations and put them on the
+
+[2:50] internets to mess things up. There's something called like pronunciation guide that literally is just some guy mispronouncing words on purpose. So, I just don't trust the internet. Well, the internet says it's my anise. My a niece, as in my star, an, no, no, my
+
+[3:10] a niece. Maya niece. What is it, some sort of tropical? Greenwich. Mayonnaise. Mayonnaise. Is it mayonnaise? Is it like some sort of like French mayonnaise alike? Makes no sense. Yeah, we gotta get somebody to call in with that. Yeah, I need someone from Greenwich. Probably preferably a hater, right? Who, who, like, you know, grew up, like, you know, fighting the local, like, Myanus warriors growing up or whatever the name their team is. You know what I'm saying? And just, you know, give it to me straight. Give it to me straight. Uh, okay. So we have some questions, but as I say, they've lost, so Nastasia is finding those, and I'll start with the one that I have here. Dear Dave, Nastasia, Jack, Peter, who's not here because Peters doesn't care,
+
+[3:52] right? Right, Stas? He said he couldn't make it. Yeah, I couldn't make it. Yeah. It's only like, you know, one of Jack's last games. Thanks a lot, Peter. Oh, he knows that. Well, no, I told him. Where are you, Peter? Wow. Wow. And the gang. I've been reading up on British dessert mistake. No, I'm kidding. I kidding. I've been reading up on British desserts, and they use double cream, which has about 48% milk fat. I haven't been able to find this in the USA. Is there any way I could take that heavy cream and either add more milk fat without a
+
+[4:24] homogenizer or remove water to bump the milk fat content from 35 to 48. Thanks for all the great work, Tom Fisher. Well, look, it depends on what you want to do with it. I mean, you can boil cream down to a very, very high fat content. But then the question is, I'm not sure what you want to do with it afterwards, whether that's going to alter the,
+
+[4:44] um, whether that's going to alter the flavor. You can't just melt butter or butter fat and add it in
+
+[4:50] because remember the cream is a fat in water
+
+[4:55] emulsion and butter is the reverse. It's a water in fat emulsion. So we used to do the experiment with Harold McGee at the French culinary where we would take cream, which is fat in water,
+
+[5:11] right? Whenever you're talking about an emulsion. You 1st name the thing that's, you know, formed in pockets, that's not the continuous phase, and then you say what it's in, which is the continuous phase. So it's, you know, fat globules. you hate the word globule? Yeah. Uh, distributed in a water in a water base. you know, water-ish. And so, um, then you beat it, you know, until
+
+[5:35] the fat particles agglomerate, you break the emulsion, and now you have the reverse, you have a
+
+[5:40] water, uh, in water droplet in oil most, which is butter. So, you know, you can't really fortify it, you can mount it and do a revert, like a mounted thing, but it's not going to be the same. But luckily for you, you know, if you get nice fresh cream and it's, you know, it doesn't have any like a high acidity or anything like that, you can boil it down and get pretty much whatever fat content you want. Now, you might be affecting or you will be affecting the taste. and the whipping properties. But I didn't have time to look what the standard recipe for making it is because I'm pretty sure
+
+[6:15] that, you know, it's going to be hard to get 48% fat straight from the cow just rising up on the top unless you really spin
+
+[6:23] it down. Oh, you know what? Like, I could spin it in the centerfusion and get it pretty easily because I can make butter in the centerfuge. I don't know if I can, and I guess I could probably enrich it to that level. But you're getting real close, you know, to like having it just automatically form a dense kind of
+
+[6:36] a butter anyway. You know what else I've never noticed us? The quote unquote butter that you make in the centrifuge when you spin butter in the centrifuge? Um, I wonder whether it's actually butter or just really solidified cream.
+
+[6:51] Like, I wonder whether you've actually broken the emulsion. I think you probably have because you get that thin buttermilk. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, speaking of centrifuge. That was from Tom Fisher, by the way. I wonder, like, should we put an all points bulletin out for people to tell us what they
+
+[7:08] want the centrifuge to be able to do? The new one just so we get more feedback from people before we release what the prototype is
+
+[7:15] going to do so I can test recipes? Like right now, I already know that the centrifuge we're working on can do strawberries, tomato, orange, lime, lemon, um, you know, banana,
+
+[7:27] hustino, dates, uh, I know it can do parsley oil. I know it can do peea butter. I know it can do. Um, I know it can do some kinds of nut milks and stuff like this, but maybe we should try to figure out what people want it to do so I can test the recipes. I don't know. If any of you guys have any things that you are dying to have a centrifuge be able to
+
+[7:45] do. I can test it on my prototype. Send back. What? No, we don't. You're wrong. Nastasia is talking about stuff that you don't have any idea what we're talking about. I might as well I might as well be I might as well be speaking in a language. I might as well be speaking. We have a prototype here. We have a prototype here that I'm going to send back. They're sending us another one, and in fact, we just need to send a rotor of which I have 3 for testing. Nastasia, again, talking about stuff that you out there don't care about or don't know. They love know. Between the 2 of us, who's the one that spent an hour from midnight to one AM talking to them yesterday? Oh, me. Okay. Anyway, so the, um, yes, we had to send some stuff back, but we
+
+[8:25] could still run tests, and I have 4 units in the US four. anyway. Um, little bit of Dave, Dave anger on the, on the, on a Tuesday. Well, it's like a Monday, though. I haven't seen it. It's like, yeah, it's a weird Monday. It's like, yeah, it's like Monday, Monday anger on a Tuesday. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of like bad traffic on the way here. Weird attitudes. Everybody's confused and hung over. It's New York when it's hot, you know? You know, Nastasia hates it, I think, as much as I do, don't you? Did you go anywhere fun over the weekend? No. The same way that you always do by taking a train or stealing the car that you Nastasia literally just got a car
+
+[9:10] fixed. Just paid to get her buddy's car fixed. Her buddy with this car is in soul. She's like, how would I get out of this? You don't have to, you don't have to sleep over somewhere. You can leave the city. You know, I've done many times. team stars here, though. That's the worst weekend to go places, I think. I'll tell you what. I drove back yesterday, not a big deal. Really? Yeah. Not a big deal. From Connecticut? Yeah. What time? Like three? Okay. Not big deal. In fact, saw some accidents. Still didn't cause too much problems on the traffic on the way back. But, you know, Anastasia wants to be martyr poor. Where would I go? I'm saying you know that I wouldn't go anywhere. would I do? Anyway, so, you know, you know, whatever. You know what the thing is, it's like, it's like, if I were to say, hey, are you gonna be around this weekend? She's like, what do you think? I stay wherever you want me. That's true. You know I'm always in New York. That is not true. always doing something. Constantly. I'm going out to the Hamptons to visit my dirtbag bodies. I'm going to this. Dirtbag, buddy. Dirtbag. Oh my god, Nastasia has some... Do you know Booker has started calling all of Dax's buddies, dirtbag buddies. Yeah, we're going to name a band that too. Dirtbag buddies. yeah And so now my wife, Jan, is like, you have to stop using the word dirtbag because the kids are picking it up.
+
+[10:26] What do you think says? No coming. You think I should stop saying dirt bag? You say a lot of things that they pick up. A lot. Look, A, that's not necessarily... exactly like you. Well, yeah. Oh, speaking of things that they picked up, my kids have picked up. This is not cooking related, so we'll try to get off it quickly, but my kids
+
+[10:45] have, without any actual physical contact, picked up my hatred of geese, of Canadian geese. Because I was like driving by, you know, if you've ever lived in the Northeast and spent in the suburbs and spent, you know, this time of
+
+[10:59] year, and you go to any pond that has a lawn next to it, right? You need a pond with a lawn next to it. It is infested with freaking Canadian geese. And right now, this time of year is when they have their rancid little goslings. And when Canadian geese have their gods. If you want your children to grow up with a healthy hatred of Canadian geese, just throw them on the side of a pond with freaking geese and their
+
+[11:25] goslings because they're the most vicious creatures that, because if you didn't know better, you'd be like, oh, geese, what are they going to do, right? You ever been attacked by goose? It's nuts. Oh, yeah. My little brother was attacked once when he was a kid and then that was it. Yeah, they like start hit. First of all, they start hissing like some sort of like, like creature from a horror show. And then they run at you like snapping and hissing with their, with their wings giving you the, they're giving you this
+
+[11:50] one style. What? What? What? With the wings. You know what I mean? they're running at you. And just do that like once or twice with it. There's a book written by, I forget her name, but she writes about how to poach animals. I'm not advocating for that, but she said, I think it was her who wrote that if you ever want your kids to never be vegetarians and to always support the killing of animals, expose them as often as possible to geese.
+
+[12:13] Did you see the gorilla? I felt so bad about that. I know. But you know what I looked up? I looked up. did he get in there? It's unclear yet how the kid got in there, but here's the, here's the real. So what we're talking about, for those of you that haven't been following the news, is what was it, Cincinnati or something like this? Three-year-old or four, something like this, kid makes it into the gorilla pen, falls 10 feet down into this moat where this like £450
+
+[12:38] silverback, 17-year-old silverback gorilla is. I forget the gorilla's name. And the gorilla is like, what? You know what I mean? It starts like dragging this kid around and the video is like, 0 my god, it's crazy. So they shot the gorilla to death. I looked it up. There's no such thing as a tranquilizer that'll take a gorilla down. Why is there not such a thing as a tranquilizer that could do that? That's my question. I don't know, but 1st thing, you know, you know, my Dax and I were like, what the hell? Why can't they just shoot it with a, you know, a tranquilizer dart? Why do they have to kill the freaking gorilla? It's horrible. It's not the gorilla's fault? You know what I mean? But then, you know, I saw all these scads of things on the internet saying that there's nothing that can take a reliably take a gorilla down in less than about 30 seconds.
+
+[13:25] And, you know, and what you don't want is an enraged pissed off gorilla that's just been trank darted, like taking a kid and smacking it around on a bunch of concrete. But the gorilla didn't look mad at the kid. And the kid didn't look phased. Grill looked like he was kind of taking care of the kid. was weird. Well, I mean, I still, you know, the gorilla, like, you know, what does the gorilla know about how fragile a, you know, a three-year-old human is? You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know. The gorilla looked like a lot less intent on damaging that kid than, you know, my dog did eating frogs this weekend. My dog turned into such a frog murderer this weekend. Like, there are frogs everywhere. And he would see a frog and then instantly start foaming at the mouth as if rabbit and jump after the frog and just be like, all right, and my kid's like, daddy's a
+
+[14:11] frog. Then it's a friend. I'm like, the dog's a carnivore. The dog is a freaking carnivore. It's like you're feeding it chummed up chicken and cow and lamb every day out of a
+
+[14:21] can and you're worried about a frog, a frog, an amphibian that doesn't even have a sense of
+
+[14:25] play, and like you're okay, whatever. I'm like, don't get me started. Don't get me started. Okay. So Stas, do you find the other question? There's one other question. There's two. From last week? There's last week. There's the there's the John Oliver one and then there's the other one that came in. It's when you just read it. Hello and thank you for making this a great podcast. First, it seems to me that other than mixers and cheaters, not much advancement was made in the process of making puff pastry and croissants over the years, making it is time consuming, requires much skill and
+
+[14:57] practice. Can you suggest a modern ingredient or method that might help in the process? Preheats keeping the butter from soaking in the dough, melting at room temperature, maybe even, and forgive me for the hearsay. Use less hair. heresy, use less butter and still get separate flaky layers. Second, in order to keep the poke. one a time, two one a time. So, uh, the question is, is it any new tricks for pup pastry? And that he mentioned croissant too, right? Yeah. Well, 1st of all, I have to say, I have, I've only made, you ever, you don't like croissant, right, Stas? No. What's worse, a question or a biscuit? I equal. Really? Well, no, if the croissant has chocolate in it, then it's fine. What about almond? No. What if you had, what if you had a, what if you had chocolate in a biscuit? No no. No, no. But chocolate and croissant, okay. I'm kind of intrigued by the chocolate biscuit idea, Dave. Well, I'm telling you, you heard it here first, people. Cooking issues. Chocolate, chocolate inside of a biscuit. to be easy enough to do. Yeah. I mean, freaking simple. You know what I mean? They bake for roughly the same amount of time as a croissant bake. And they bake it roughly the same temperature that a croissant bakes. So, and they're they're cooked through as much as a croissant is. So I'm going to go ahead and say that you could do a chocolate biscuit. you know, standard baking powder biscuit, buttermilk biscuit. Okay. I made a question all exactly once in my life. It was well over 20 years ago, and it was in the middle of the freaking
+
+[16:27] summer in an un-air conditioned house. So it sucked. And I was like, when I made them, they've tasted fine, but I was like, this
+
+[16:36] crap, in a rare, I was like, this crap is not worth it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm glad I made it once. I never going to do it again. So I don't have a lot of experience with croissant, but I have made a bunch of puff pastry. Uh, and I've never really tried to make it, um, I've never really tried to tech it up. Uh, I looked up the patent literature on this and there are a bunch of people that have um, patents out uh,
+
+[16:59] on, on puff pastry specifically trying to lower the fat content of puff pastry because for some
+
+[17:04] reason, this is the kind of thing that people are uh, interested in
+
+[17:08] doing. I'm not, I mean, not me personally. Like I'd rather just have puff pastries. But what they did was, so when you're making puff pastry, obviously, the idea is you have a laminated dough, you have the dough
+
+[17:17] layers, and you have the fat in between them now. Back when I was uh, paying attention to such things, you would, uh, people always said that it was the water
+
+[17:25] in the butter that was the important part that would blast that, that would steam and blast the layers apart. But now most people say that the water in the dough does the same thing as the water in the butter, although I've never tried making puff pastry with
+
+[17:37] a solid fat that didn't have any water in it at all. And I'm pretty sure that the puff pastry fats that they make specifically for making super light flaky puff pastries, which
+
+[17:47] are, they are a technical marvel, if terrible for you, uh, they are, because they're all trans, although they probably have trans fat free ones now. But, um, Those, like, are awesome, but I think that those are emulsions with water and I'm like a standard margarim, but they're done for puff pastry. Anyways, so you need this separation and you need the dough layers to not stick together so they can, um, puff apart. Um, So there's a fella, I forget his name, because I don't have it in front of me anymore, but who had a patent out on making a uh, thickened starch uh, water uh, along with fat
+
+[18:21] emulsion so that it had the plasticity and laminating characteristics of margarine, but instead of being 82 or 80 to 82% fat was like 40 to 45% fat.
+
+[18:35] And so that would be a significant fat reduction, and according to the patent, it works, but as Nastasia and I both
+
+[18:41] know any idiot can write a patent, even if the stuff doesn't work, and they'll get it. You know what I mean? It's true. A lot of people don't know this, but if you write a patent, It doesn't mean you could literally, if you write a patent, you never have to prove that the sucker works. You just have to make up a good enough story for the patent officer to believe that you come up with,
+
+[18:59] you know, in fact, people have patented things that are physically impossible to do, and they slipped it past, you know, a patent officer who, you know, I don't know, high as a kite
+
+[19:10] or, you know, drunk as a skunk or whatever, wasn't paying any attention. And there are people that forget who collect these kind of absurd patents as kind of little things. Anyway, so let's go on to the 2nd question. Second, in order to keep the potency of rarely used spices. Hello, pink peppercorn. I stored those in the freezer. Assuming I keep count, assuming I keep condensation at check, is there any reason repeated freezing and thawing might hurt
+
+[19:36] them and is the same true for nuts? Nuts. Okay, so to look up my suspicions, Nastasia, you'll enjoy this, I think. I looked up UC Davis's PDF on nut storage and, you know, UC Davis, they know from nuts. They safe, the safe handling of nuts. How awesome is that as a PDF title? The safe, the safe handling of nuts, gently, gently, I
+
+[20:01] believe, is the, anyway, so the point is, is that, uh,
+
+[20:05] and McCormick, if you look at what McCormick tells you, McCormick tells you not to freeze, uh, dry spices just because it's unnecessary, but let's break down what's going on here.
+
+[20:13] There are several things you need to worry about when you're when you're dealing with spices. So, in general, dried spices are those things that have been deemed for millennia in some cases to withstand the rigors of shipment on boats and long storage and still retain
+
+[20:32] potency, and as long as they're kept whole, not ground. Uh, you know, for long, long periods of time. That's why they are the spices that we use because they are items of commerce that can be shipped over long distances.
+
+[20:44] So they tend to store rather well without any sort of like freezing or refrigeration. Now, most, you are going to extend the life of these things, where these things get damaged is, A, yes, they will
+
+[20:57] volatilize their aromas off over time and decrease their potency. Some of them will also probably alter in flavor over time. But you have 2 main things. You have water damage due to condensation, which is obviously enhanced by
+
+[21:10] cycling through different temperatures where you get condensation on it. So that's why repeatedly bringing it in and out of cold, can be problematic unless it's stored under a vacuum.
+
+[21:21] So if it's stored under a vacuum, you can bring something in and out, you're not going to get condensation because there's not any extra vapor in there to have water that can damage it through repeated
+
+[21:31] freeze thaw cycles. But I doubt you're going to get that much of an advantage on that versus just storing it in a vacuum container. Also remember, every time you suck a vacuum, you're sucking volatiles off of it. Now, are you really going to notice? I don't think so. But a good way to do this, if you really, want to do it, is to vacuum these things into smaller packages and keep them back down so you're not repeatedly
+
+[21:51] vacuing and unvacuing them time and time again. So that's in terms of keeping. But the other thing, in this, this is where, you know, the some splices, but also, isn't that, and like seeds and things like that? Yeah. are important is rancidity, right? So, um, your nuts are going to go ranted if you leave them out at room temperature for a long time. And in fact, I just had an interesting uh, a pack of uh, black walnuts, American grown black walnuts. Uh, I'm not I'm not going to get into that joke. Anyway, but like they like, I can't, family show. Uh, much, you know, Jim Lahey, how long did it take us to get that it was a family show. Yeah, that was... was a family show? I think he was surprised it was a family show. And then, like, it's just, you know, it's just not in his nature to turn off
+
+[22:38] the the bleep bombs. You know what I mean? But his Bernie Sanders impression was excellent. Well, that's what, yes. We also had to be like, it's not a political show. Not a political show. Family show. You can listen, I don't care what you're, I mean, within reason. I don't care what your political beliefs are. But, uh, you know, anyway, back to what I was saying, nuts. So they're going to go rancid. In fact, I've got these black walnuts and they had gone rancid in a really kind of interesting way. Still. I said, were you here when we ate with Paul and Don, those, I think Don was here? those ants? Did you eat one? Yeah. Remember how disgusting they were? But like greasy and like, like, but fruity greasy? Well, you know, most of the time when I taste rancid nuts, uh, it's more that cardboard kind of rancidity that you get with oil where you can taste oil and see that it's gone off and it's getting rancid, but these walnuts had that fruity rancidity, it was so
+
+[23:32] weird. Anyway, so they go rancid, very obviously. Um, so you're going to want to store your nuts in uh, a vacuum, if possible, and nuts are good in the freezer, but you also, you want, like I say, if you store it in a vacuum and you can get rid of the, um, the air, you're not going to get condensation even through, you know, a couple of uh,
+
+[23:51] freeze freestaw cycles. But other than that, I would say that airtight storage and buying them whole and buying high quality is the way to
+
+[23:59] go and unless you're cooking professionally. So if you're cooking professionally, you know, people in general, if you, it, it depends on what kind of professional cooking, if you're dealing in a large kind of institutional environment where you're expecting someone to follow
+
+[24:12] measurements like you will use 5 grams of pink peppercorn, right? Then consistency of your pink peppercorn over time is super important. But if you're just cooking or even if you're a real cook in a restaurant and you can adjust on the fly, typically, these kind of spices will just lose potency over time and so you can just jack the quantity.
+
+[24:29] This is why, like, we were talking before when Kenji was in and someone on the internet said that Baileys don't have flavor. Remember that, Jack? I do. Yeah, I'm stars, remember that? And I was like, yeah, yeah, it's wrong. Just use more because you have crappy ones. You know what I'm saying? And so, uh, a lot of times I think you're probably better off just jacking the quantity a little bit. I mean, I know I do that. I mean, most of us use those kinds of things to taste anyhow, right? Okay, so what was the other, we had another question in from Norway, right? You sent it to me last night. Uh, okay. Yeah, well, we're... while we're looking it up. No, but they were in 2 separate emails. I lost any changes I made to my list. Yeah. So anyway, so why don't we go to commercial break? We'll get that question. We'll come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[25:22] And the break song here is called Forks by Slow Roasters. We'll be right back.
+
+[25:32] Nettle Meadow Farm, Cheese and Spirits pairing is a celebration of good food and beverages in the newly restored barn loft event venue at Nettle Meadow Farm in
+
+[25:45] Thurman, New York. On Saturday, June 18th, come sample and savor, then buy your favorite cheeses and beverages to take home. Nettle Meadow cheeses have been praised highly in national media and have won prestigious awards from the American Cheese Society. Taste samples of goat and sheep cheese is paired with an array of local regional wines, beers, and ciders. You'll never forget your 1st sample of rich, creamy Kunik, Nettle Meadows, trademark cheese. In Esquire, our very own Ansacs will be said Kunik. It may very well be the sexiest cheese in the USA. Nettle Meadow Farm is a goat and sheep dairy and cheese company in Thurmond, New York, just below Crane Mountain in the Adirondacks between Gore Mountain, North Creek and Warrensburg. It's owned and operated by Lorraine Limbiase and Sheila Flanagan. Both have a great love of animals, artisan cheese, and the unique challenges of farm life. Nettle Meadow Farm was originally founded in 1990, and it's the home of over 300 goats, dozens of sheep and a variety of farm sanctuary animals. Again, the cheese and spirits pairing is Saturday, June 18th. For more information and tickets. Visit Nettlemeadowcheeseandspirits.com. That's N-E-T-L-E, MeadowCheeseandspirits.com. All right. All right, and we are back. So we had this question in. Oh, by the way, you can call your cooking questions in 2 718-497-2128. That 718-4972128. Uh, this in from uh, Arnie Olsen. Uh, hey, guys, and thanks for great show. I have a question about Lime Quad. Lime Quad. Remember the lime quads? They're like, you know what, though? So lime quat is, I don't know whether it's technically a mix between a kumquat and a
+
+[27:29] line, but there are these little kumquat things, you eat the whole thing like a lemon lime, right? I mean, like, I don't like eating the kumquats, really. What? What are you, going Nastasia on me here? A little bit. I don't know. I don't like eating the rind, you know? But the rind's the best part of the kumquat. Yeah. That's where all the, that's where the, you know, the, the fruit. 1st of all, I happen to freaking love kumquats. Like, I completely denuded Harold McGee's kungquat tree,
+
+[27:54] and which is a gross sounding sentence, I know, but, like, it was, I, it never came back from what I did. I just wiped it out. I was just like, that basically just like sat there and chewed on the whole plant until the
+
+[28:04] kumquads were gone. And then when Nastasia and Harold and I visited Gene Lester's Citrus Farm, we were
+
+[28:10] like bathing in different kinds of kumquats and lime quats and stuff. Remember that? But I think I like the kumquat better than the lime quot. Yeah. I like a good old-fashioned orange colored kumquat. Jack, I feel you need to give the kumquat another chance. Yeah, I'm open to it. I'm not hardline on these things. It's just like the last time I had kumquats, I don't remember like loving them. How did you have them? Well, whole, you know. Do you like sour things? I might have just had a bad batch. It's possible I guess. You know what I don't like about them? is like every once in a while the seeds will tick me off. You know what I mean? I don't know. What do you think about biting into a kumquat seeds does? Not good. Not good? No. But I love, I love it. I don't really cook with them. I just eat them. We've tried to make cocktails out of them. I've never been like, 0 my god, that's the best cocktail I've ever had. I've made garnishes with them, done a bunch of candied them. But I think their best just eaten. You know what I mean? Anyway. You know what? I think the last time I had when it was a garnish. Yeah. And it might have just not been like the highest quality, you know? Yeah. and plus what was it garnishing? Do you remember? I don't. Yeah. I've been, I have a question about lime quad. I've been fermenting all sorts of things lately, and I threw some lime quat wedges in with some chilies and Turkish sour green
+
+[29:30] plums. I'm not gonna try to pronounce the Turkish word here. Yazel, Eric, Tavazi, I guess is what it is. I've actually, if it's the ones I'm thinking of, they're like, they're in season. I forget when exactly their season. when I was in Istanbul's when they were in season, and they're good. And, you know, remember we had, you know, uh... Really? So I was running around now? Okay. But here's here's anyway. The liquid has become a lot more viscous. What do you think about that word? It's okay. Viscous than I've experienced before. And the only differing thing this time were the lime quats, the plums haven't behaved like this before, so I assume it's not them. I've been able to, I haven't been able to find anything online about hydrocolloid properties of lime quat or kumquat. I used a brine of about 4% salt. The change of viscosity happened fast before any significant drop in
+
+[30:18] pH can have occurred after a few hours, and it hasn't changed after a month. Any ideas? Huh? No, that is really weird. Um, I know that uh, Harold McGee has had uh, snotty preserved lemons before. Like, they've gone, like his preserved lemons have gone all snotty on him. Um, uh, but that is probably due to halophilic uh, bacteria that were causing, making some sort of mucilage. So typically like, I wouldn't imagine that the limes, oh, here's an interesting
+
+[30:50] thing, though. The limes are far more acidic than the plums are, right? I mean, the plums are acidic, but the lime quads are more acidic still. Uh, I wonder, I wonder if you, um, I wonder if you, as a test, just took some of the
+
+[31:08] plums and jacked the acidity up a little bit to the same kind of acidity
+
+[31:13] level you had. I wonder whether it's just some sort of weird pectin phenomenon. Like you have solubilized, some pectin, and then when you lower the acidity, it's doing some sort of like pre-gel or set or something like this.
+
+[31:23] Because that my guess is, is that it's not an aspect of the citrus itself. It's an aspect of the acidity, the environment dropping with the addition of the lime cloth. But you know what? You said it wasn't there wasn't a significant drop in pH. That must mean you've been measuring it. And if measuring it, you know what the ph was. So I don't know. I've never heard of any weird hydrocolary property in a lime quat or anything else. But maybe some people in the chat room have a something to say. Now, remember, my lime quad experience is solely based on Nastasia and I eating the hell out of them on Gene Lester's farm.
+
+[32:01] I've never shopped for lime quats, nor have I sourced lime quats, or, you know, the only sort of quat that
+
+[32:07] I have sourced is is kumquats. What was that drink name we're going to make for that kumquat thing that Derek has? I remember his last name. Cranz. Yeah, what was it? anyway, we'll figure it out. We have a kumquat dish, kumquat drink at the bar. And Nastasia came up with an awesome name for it, which is not the name that you can order from at the bar, but it was like something in the
+
+[32:27] cram clots. What was it? It was like... Was it just Derek? Yeah, hysteric, yes. Derek and the cram class? Maybe. Anyways. So the answer is, I don't know. We also had someone writing in and wanted us to look at the John Oliver, what's his show called this week? This week, tonight, this week, tonight, or something like this, tomorrow, yesterday, tonight, this week. He's a funny dude. Anyway, he did something on science that scientific studies and food specifically that someone wanted us to read and look at rather
+
+[33:00] and comment on. And I have to say that I think it was hilarious. Everybody should go to John Oliver's website and look at his 22 or 23 minute, uh, you know, rant, basically, on how crappy
+
+[33:14] most uh, food science studies are and how they're mishandled by the media, um, last week tonight. It is, I think it's pretty much spot on. I'm thinking, like, it's a subject that I plan on going more in depth on, um,
+
+[33:28] if I ever finish or start writing the book that I was supposed to write on. You going to have a chapter on kind of the, what I consider the pyramid of garbage that
+
+[33:37] most of these, a lot of these studies are based on. But I don't want to go into it now because if I go half cocked on it, someone will call me out and tell me that I'm a
+
+[33:49] terrible, uneducated fool, right? As has happened before, as has happened before. Um, okay. So, that's that. Those are the questions that are in. So now I'm going to talk about some stuff I want to do. First of all, Nastasia. I'm going to redo my outdoor cooking situation again, right? Because no matter what I do, I cannot get in a situation where people will be in the same freaking area while I'm cooking. It still is completely anti-social. Like my tandor, is like crammed outside. No one wants to hang out where the tandor is. You know what I mean? Also, like, you know how you know how I'm cheap? Yeah, she's nodding her head up and down. Yeah, cheap. So, uh, everyone, you know, the big thing over the past couple
+
+[34:35] years, people want. They want a fire pit, right? Because people want to hang out in the fireplace. I bet you have a fire pit. I did. So but I bought it the cheap one, right? From the Home Depot. It's called the cowboy grill, but it doubles as a grill, but I'm like, I'm never going to use this thing as a grill. I actually use it as a grill because now I have those benches around the grill. Remember, the chainsaw, the tree fell down, I cut all those benches with the chainsaw, because, you know, I think chainsaw art is like, you know, I
+
+[34:56] like I'm not good at it, but, like, I, like, everybody really likes playing with chainsaws. don't you think? Wouldn't you like playing with a chainsaw? No. You have no desire to play with chainsaws? Jack, you? Yeah, totally. Yeah. My, uh, I used to have a, I used to like not wake up when I was a kid, you know,
+
+[35:11] I'd, like, sleep in and stuff and my grandpa once walked into my room with a chainsaw. Wow. revved it up that did the trick. Wow, where was grandpa from? Sicily. Nice. Nice. So like crazy Sicilian grandpa with a chainsaw. That'll get you up. that'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I like chainsaws. I have never have not yet been severely damaged by one, thank goodness. Anyway, so I had this cowboy grill. Um, and I have to say, uh, you know, I'm a big fan of the vertical grilling
+
+[35:43] in the tandor, but I was like, I'm gonna try to cook something so people can actually hang out with me while I'm cooking. So I have all the benches. So those things actually cook like a monster because they are like, imagine a Weber grill that is like 2.5 feet across or more.
+
+[35:59] How big is this to us? Like 3 feet? It's like 3 feet across. So what you do is the way you use this. And so I'm actually recommending this as a cooking implement strangely, is you take a chimney, you take a chimney starter for charcoal, you fill it full of hardwood
+
+[36:12] charcoal. I use the cowboy brand because it fits with the cowboy grill. Actually, it's just the one I use, the red one. Uh, and you put, actually, it's not cowboy. And it's royal oak. And you pour it into the chimney thing, you put one thing of paper underneath, you light it with the torch, and the coals start after like 20 minutes. We've all used chimney starters, right? Now, a chimney starter is in no way, shape, form,
+
+[36:32] kind, color, enough charcoal to cook on this thing because it's
+
+[36:37] like it would be the equivalent of putting like 2 pieces of charcoal in a weber, right? It's like nothing. So what you do is you dump the chimney down and then you build your teepee
+
+[36:46] of like, you know, how big is that styles across? Mm. 2 inches? All right, you can take like your 2 inch sticks and you layer them like a tepee over the burning
+
+[36:55] coals, and then you take your big pieces of like firewood that you use for
+
+[36:59] fire and you make another tepee around that. And because the coals are so hot, the wood lights in like, in less than like 20 minutes, the wood is already so on fire that you can spread it out over the entire thing. And now you have like a 3 foot circle of instant death that you can put the grill on top
+
+[37:18] of, and it's just a freaking monster. Like, it's such a freaking monster. I did bluefish on it. So like I put them, you know, I have those, I have like infinite kinds of like skewers and baskets for my tandor. So, like, I, you know, I'm doing it, and I was like, man, this sucker, really freaking cranks. So, I would say, if you're a fan of Weber style cooking, go get you a cowboy grill, if you really need to cook for a lot of people, because does anyone like waiting around to like swap stuff off and on the Weber grill?
+
+[37:47] Everybody hates it, right? And so the thing about the cool thing about this is it's got a little swing over, um, grate, that's like a warming grate. It's like a 2nd level above the other one, and you can kind of adjust the height of that, and it's got to swing over for a boil kettle, right? So it swings over. So what you do is, but, you know, like a lot of people, what they want to do in their grilling is they want to switch the height of their grill up and down to adjust the heat. I find that cooking with the tandor, what you want to do is get a uniform kind of like high heat. Although, I don't know I don't know whether it's talking on error or talking later with Jim. I've lowered my I've lowered my super high cooking temperatures pretty much across the board. So now with my tandor, I kind of do a 1st burnout low. Then I put all my breads in, my nans, because I find that my, was I talking about this on Airjack? think so. I was talking about lowering the temperature of the, to bake the nans. I think so. I mean, she wasn't here. Oh, last week. She was in my anus during the whole show. You know? Anyway. I want to repeat it anyway. All right. So in other words, like, normally with a tandor, you get a scorching hot, right? And then you want, and I think this is the same as true with like most pizzas. I think most pizza does and most pizzas, uh, you know, I've been doing super, super hot for a long
+
+[39:04] time and I'm thinking, uh, I like now to reduce the temperatures a little bit. I find I like the interior texture better if the bake time's a little bit longer. And so lower temperature. So what I'll do is for the tandor, is I'll do a relatively long fire to fire it up to like a nice, uh, even temp, do my breads, and then I'll throw another chimney of charcoal in to do my meats,
+
+[39:25] my like shrimp stuff that you want like really fast. Anyway, but I find with the grill, I think most things, and this is another
+
+[39:31] thing I, you know, that I've been thinking a lot about recently is moisture, moisture control and surface effects. I think you can gain a lot when you're grilling by just going off, on, off, on, off, on,
+
+[39:43] off, on, or putting on the worm and just like constantly moving the thing around. So you don't really need to worry, I think, about having a 1000000000 different heat levels as long as you're on top of it. You know what I mean? If you want to be a Jamoke and just throw something on the hot side for a couple seconds to, you know, a couple minutes to make the crust and then throw it on the cold side. I guess you could do that too. But, you know, I find that if you just keep the thing cranking at a pretty
+
+[40:06] hardcore rate, you can just slam the stuff out as long as you're on top of it. Anyway, so Cowboy Grill, I'm definitely pro. The other thing that I'm going to do this summer. Oh, but here's why I brought it up. So then the next day, when we had a bunch of people coming over, right, after I grill the bluefish, my 1st bluefish of the season, delicious, do you like bluefish? don't know. Huh, Jeff, you like bluefish? I love bluefish. Bluefish is now becoming popular because everyone now is liking fish that they didn't used to like. It is around a lot now. Yeah, it's delicious, but it's oily. You know what I mean? And so like if you talk to an old timer, like when I bought it, they were like, when did that fish come in?
+
+[40:41] And the guy's like, today, of course, because what are they going to say? And you're just like, no, no. When was it caught? And he's like, freaking today. Today, freaking today. You know what I mean? And she wouldn't buy it until I bought a piece and she smelled my piece. She's like, okay, I'll take a piece. You know what I mean? I don't know why the guy didn't just offer to let her smell the fish in the 1st place. So I had to be an intermediary at whatever. Uh, and I did the old school. you know that, have I talked about this on here? You know, the old school with bluefish, the old old timers recipe is to put mayonnaise on the bluefish. You know what the old theory, which is garbage, is the oil gets out oil. It doesn't make any freaking sense. But the man... No. No, that's why it doesn't make any freaking sense. But the mayonnaise is good. It forms like a nice crust. So you mayonnaise, salt, pepper, and then only on the on the meat side, not on the skin side. Anyway. So then the next day when a bunch of people came over, they're like, you know what? We don't want to sit with you next to the grill while you're cooking all the food, we're going to sit on the deck. I like, of course, wah, wah. So now I'm going to build, I want to build a deck friendly cooking thing. And here's the thing. When you're cooking outside, what are you missing? Usually. Oh, no. A way to cook things that want to be cooked on ranges, right? So a lot of people will take a walk, and they'll try to put it on their grill, which I think is weak, or they'll do a bunch of other
+
+[41:57] things. They put pans on grills, which I think is problematic. But I'm going to build an outdoor walk burner. So I need some I need some advice from people. I'm either going to get what's called the big kahuna, which is a gas fired 65,000 BTU propane wok burner or buy one of those Thai charcoal stoves that
+
+[42:18] you that you like hold a wok or maybe get both. I don't know. But I'm gonna get a the wok burner. And the other problem is, is that, you know why I don't use my outdoor fryer enough stuff? Because my outdoor fryer is not sealed. I realize this is that if you have to completely drain, clean,
+
+[42:34] dry and store a fryer every time you use it, especially when you're using 6 gallons of
+
+[42:39] oil. You don't do it that often. You know what I mean? Whereas if I could just have my fryer, act like my indoor fryer, like completely seal it from all pests, then I can just, uh, I can just strain it, keep the oil
+
+[42:51] in in, in fine feather, cover it, and then just go back and fry with it. Because honestly, if you're just making like, if you're just making like,
+
+[42:59] like 4 or £5 of tortilla chips or like a couple of chickens, are you really
+
+[43:04] going to sit there and fill an entire fryer with 6 gallons of oil?
+
+[43:08] Then at the end of the night, strain it out, clean it, and drop it in. Whereas back when it was sitting at home, inside, I would just fire up the freaking fryer, do the tortilla chips, let it cool down and cover
+
+[43:17] it, right? So I'm going to work on that. I'll let you know. I'll let you people good people know. Another thing is that I know I said earlier at the beginning of the year, this was going to be the year of starch. I finally started working on it. Right now, my newest thing. I tweeted it out or something with potato starch, big on potato starch. I've been working on the Korean fried chicken, my Korean fried chicken recipe. I'm getting very close to a Korean fried chicken that I like. Jackie, you like Korean fried chicken? Yes. So, I see, like, cream fried chicken? We like better, American fried chicken or cream fried chicken? Really? Interesting. What style of American fraction? your ultimate fried chicken style? Mine's hot chicken, like Nashville style hot chicken. So how is that? Like, I've never been to Nashville. Oh, really? Yeah, which just fried chicken with a shit ton of spice on it. Oops, sorry for the curse. Family show. So is it, is it, is the crust more like uh, more like a KFC original, more like a F Crispy, more like a Popeye, more like a traditional southern soft crust? Yeah, like, no, no, no. crunchy, crunchy crust. Yeah, thick, thick, crunchy crust. See, the interesting thing about the Kentucky fried chicken. Oh, sorry, the Korean fried chicken, obviously, is that it's like super thin. So some people when they do the recipes for it, they do a thin batter, which
+
+[44:26] is, I think, a mistake. And this goes back to what I was saying before about, it's all about moisture control. So obviously everybody who really knows how to how to do this, right? They do multiple frying. And what you're doing during the multiple frying is controlling the controlling the crust, controlling the formation of the skin and the crust, which is why you can get
+
+[44:45] hyper thin, shattering crust on a Korean fried chicken,
+
+[44:50] using fundamentally just the skin. So what I'm working towards, you know, the Koreans use these small chickens and they fry the whole thing whole, right? I want to do a larger American style in the of chicken in using low temp cooking. So I've been testing with low temp cooking 1st and then doing a triple fry on it with potato starch as
+
+[45:08] the as the base for the crust. And I want to do a Blues Brothers, 4 whole fried chickens and dry white toast dinner. Now, the thing is, I haven't figured out, I figured out. I'm pretty close. I'd say I'm 95% of the way there with being able to make 4 whole fried chickens that are delicious all the way through, perfect. But what I've not been able to do yet is make dry white toast that I want to eat by itself.
+
+[45:33] You know what I'm saying? You guys familiar with this movie? No. You've never seen the booze brothers. Yeah, yeah. I've seen it So they walk, they're trying to get McAntar Murphy to leave Aretha Franklin where they're working at this greasy spoon in Chicago and go out on the road with them to form the band because they're on a mission from God, right?
+
+[45:52] Okay. So, uh, what they do is they go in there and Belushi orders 4 whole fried chickens and Dan Ackroyd orders dry white
+
+[46:02] toast and that's how McIntar Murphy knows that the blues where the flues is what they eat, but who the hell eats dry white toast on its own? Don't know. Can you imagine? Can anyone imagine what good dry white toast to eat on its own is? Like, what would it mean to make dry white toast that you would eat on its own? Is Dan Ackroyd just trying to say like, I'm a horrible person? And Belushi is trying to say, I merely am a hedonist, and I want 4 whole fried chickens, and
+
+[46:28] therefore I will leave. And then Dan Akroy is just like, I am, I am, I am just a, a non-entity, even
+
+[46:34] though, like, that's clearly not the case. What do you think, Jack? What do you think about the dry white toast? I don't know. Maybe he had he had to duck out, I guess, but like the dry white toast is not something that I can imagine. I've thought a lot about toast, right? The texture of toast. Like, when you eat toast, what kind of toast do you like? Just white toast. what is the texture like? Oh, crunchy? You like crunchy. So more of a British, more like a Melba toast, like where you break it in half and it shatters into a 1000000 pieces? No, no, no. You need like a good crunch on the outside and then a little bit of chew in the middle, yeah. Right. So you're dealing with another moisture control problem. And this is we talked about this before when that guy came and we did that TV shoot about toast, the guy wasn't even thinking straight about it. When a toaster is done, what do you do? What's the 1st thing you do when the toaster goes with you have a toaster oven, if it's not a pop-up, what do you do? Take the toast out. Open the freaking door to let the moisture come out or it's going to be ruined. What's the worst thing you can do to toast? Take it and put on a plate right away. You're ruining the freaking toast because when you put the toast on the plate. Have you never done this? You take toast right out of the toaster, you put it on the plate, you let it sit there. What happens when you lift the toast? don't know. There's all water and steam and condensed garbage underneath
+
+[47:47] the toast. And the bottom of the toast is ruined. Dax did this to toast over the weekend because I made some seafood salad and we had it, you know, seafood salad sandwiches and he made the
+
+[47:57] toast, and he did that to the toast, and it was all I could do not to like lose it. You don't want steamed. Jack, are you with me on this? Yeah, definitely. Erica's back here. She says you need a toast rack. Yeah. So I have a whole bunch. Erica is totally right. I have a whole bunch of quarter and this is, by the way, something that everyone should buy. Um, and this is another thing, I'm actually talking to my editor about it, is a kitchen organization in general, even though I'm the most disorganized person on
+
+[48:21] earth. I think that actually gives me some reason to be interested in the idea of kitchen organization. I have stacks of quarter racks. And so quarter rack, quarter sheet pan rack, is very useful for moving stuff around, and they're very kind of portable and they stack up. So my toaster, literally on top of my toaster, are stacks of quarter
+
+[48:39] racks that I can just put whatever, pancakes, toast, anything that has a moisture control problem. So the whole kind of thing boils down to everything is moisture control. Fried chicken is a moisture control problem. Toast is a moisture control problem. All of these things, grilling properly to get the crust right before the inside is done is a moisture control problem. And that is, in essence, all I think about all day is getting the outside and the inside at their proper kind of moistures and doneness at the right
+
+[49:09] time. And all the tech that we use, all the low temperature cooking, really, all we're doing is trying to more effectively make the inside be the way we want and the outside be the way we want.
+
+[49:20] So it all comes down to moisture control, cooking issues.
+
+[49:37] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Nettle Meadow Farm, Cheese and Spirits Pairing, taking place on Saturday, June 18th at Nettle Meadow Farm. For more information, visit Nettle, Meadow, Cheese and Spirits.com. That's N-E-T-T-L-E, Meadow Cheese and Spirits.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Raider Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. In Bushwick, Brooklyn, at
+
+[0:47] Roberta's... pizzeria. You guys should see the drugs that Dave Huffs before he does that every time. So calling your, calling your questions. It's a sad show. Immediately after that, you just set a tier too. Yeah, it's a sad show today. That was a great intro though. Thank you. switched it up a little bit for you. Today is not in the booth today in the, what do you call this? In the room with us today, not in the room is Jack Insley, Jackie Molecules. his last... It's his last cooking issues. Jack is leaving us. And so, uh, it's, you know, it's, it's sad and he's not in the booth to give us the sad noise. I know. But like, you know, just picture him, oh, well, but the good news is he's going to go on tour, which he'll talk about in a minute for a couple of months, and then he's going to start his own radio station down in Washington.
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+[1:42] Why don't you tell us about it, Jack? Yeah, Washington, DC. It's going to be. I can't give too many details away yet. The ink is not dry, but it'll be a really, really exciting radio station. I'm starting in a really cool public space in DC. So some food. Now you play the sound, yeah. Nice, nice, nice. It'll be some food, lots of music. Of course, some politics by nature of the city. Counterculture, stuff, all kinds of stuff. Itll be fun. Wait, so what but before politics. What subjects? Food, of course. Okay, some food and those food shows, hopefully, you know, we'll be sharing those with heritage and a lot of music, a lot of DJ shows and live music. When you say DJ, like, like stuff like that you do are more like, like what kind of like, well, no, I want like, uh, you know,
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+[2:30] go-go is like the thing in DC or like, uh, For real? Like old school? Yeah. Like hardcore. Like, you know, there's DC hardcore. Like old school hardcore, like bad brains? Sure. I'm open. It'll be all genres of music. Definitely not really club music, I don't think so. No? Not even a little, just for a little. sibling night stuff. So, uh, here to uh, by the way, are you going to be open? You think the radio show is going to a station is going to open before the elections in November? No, but I'll be down. moving in September to DC. So if any listeners are in DC. I'm going to hang out. I need some friends. So, so get at me. And I'll be recording, like, compiling content starting in September and definitely covering the election. Nice, cool. And to wish Jack Farewell. we got a full full room here today. We got Peter Kim, who maybe he can piss off Jack today instead of pissing me off, you know? I think people want me or want me here to needle you, Dave. Yeah, but, you know, you can needle me all the time. is your last molecules. By the way. Colin, I like tech. I have a lot of... Jack is a high quality individual. We got we got cooking issues, friend, Paul Adams here from the popular, the science that is popular. How you doing? That's correct. I'm here Yeah. Also a fan of skunks. I don't know if you know this, and Fan of Skunks. For former captain included? I don't know. It's okay, yeah. Yeah. To be more accurate, skunks are a fan of me. And also avid, what's like rocketeer for drones? Like drone a tier? No, like droner. No, listeners, call in with your suggestion? And, as usual, the ever ebullient Nastasia the Hammer Lopez here. So, uh, for Jack's last day, we have some, uh, we have some bubbly. Anastasi's going to open it because if there's one thing that makes her happy. It's got to be the bubbly. That's true. By the way, Paul's a drone thug. Drone thug? Oh, which are you the harmony? Yeah. Wow. Now, now I need you to, like, during the commercial break... drone, drone, drone, drone. I didn't have to wait. didn't have to wait. I was like, you can rework the lyrics while we're... Quick. Strong, strong. You know, I saw a like a fast rapping, like my Dax is obsessed with rappers that can rap quickly. I probably already have talked about this on the radio show. I'm like, the ones you don't even know what you're talking about. But anyway, one of them like... I don't remember. See, he's like super, it's because I was going to meet, I think, Buster Rhymes at one time and I didn't get the meatbuster Rhymes. And then, uh, and so, and he thought Eminem was the fastest rapper, and I was like, you don't know what they're talking about. It's not even in contention. First of all, like speed isn't, it's speed with flow is what's important, not like, you know what I mean? There's one answer to this question. Twista. Uh, well, technically, yeah, but I mean, was is that the fast stuff that you'd listen to, like on a daily basis? Yeah, he's good. I mean, I have some of it. All right. Okay. Anyway, we can all agree it's not Eminem. No, it's not. Like, that part we can agree with. Anyway, so then, I don't know, I don't even remember how I got into it. Let's get to some questions. But before we do remember, you have a short time left to call in all of your molecule related questions to Jackie molecules. I wish we expert on molecules. We're gonna get that ringtone back. Do you have another thing? You can play it. I know if I still have it on here. Uh, two, 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Here we got a caller. Okay, caller. you're on the air Hey, guys. Hey, um, so before I ask my question, uh, just real quick, I wanted
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+[6:15] to, um, extend a sincere thank you to Jack for all the time he's put in. Um, just wishing things travel and good luck in everything that he's doing. you. Yeah. Wow. Um, so are you there? Yeah. No, wait, wait. And goodbye. So my my question is my brother recently got married and I was asked to make a
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+[6:42] groom's cake, and so I decided to make the milk bar, uh, mini chocolate chip cake with a passionfruit curd,
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+[6:49] and, um, because I couldn't find passion fruit curd locally, and it was, uh, there was a time constraint. I went ahead and used the really crappy mango nectar. And, um, I felt kind of like an enemy of quality, but, um, something something really weird happened because I followed the recipe to a tea. But when I made the curd filling, The egg mixture like totally curdled and like the little protein particles started to like block out and like
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+[7:16] agglomerate. And the weirdest thing happened because after I mixed in the butter in the food processor, it became totally filky smooth
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+[7:24] again. And I'm just wondering why it would like curdle and then be able to come back to being totally
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+[7:29] smooth again. Huh. Well, hold on a second. Let me cheers Jack while we're while I'm thinking. Cheers. Huh. So I don't know why it broke. That's it. It's interesting. Peter wouldn't cheers me. Speaking of enemy equality. So weak. I in the room there. He won't even choose like, oh, cheers, everyone, I've been updated. Uh, I don't know. I mean, I've never actually, interestingly, I mean, I've eaten a whole hell of a lot of mango in my life, including Nastasia and Harold McGee and I went down to
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+[7:59] pound mangoes in Florida once. It was a nightmare of the trip, actually. We can talk about that later. Complete nightmare. And led me to the knowledge that tropical fruit people are very possessive of their fruit.
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+[8:10] Whether they're ever going to freaking eat it or not. I'm like, up to this before, I'm like a temperate fruit person where they're like, hey, take all the apples. don't care. don't eat these things. I just collect the trees. Like the people in the tropics are like, touch my mango, you're dead. I'm like, you have billions. Anyway, whatever. But the strange thing is I have never cooked with mango ever. I've only ever eaten mango. I've made mango into drinks and I've used mango
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+[8:34] in cold prep, but I've never cooked a mango. Mangos are relatives of, uh, let me see, the relatives actually have like poison ivy and cashews. they're anacardaci. I think, but it's been a long time since I've looked that up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So they contain a latex in them. But I don't know of anything that necessarily would break occurred. I wonder whether anyone out there in the chat room has had an experience cooking mangoes and can help us out. But as for the silky smooth, there's lots of times when you get like kind of a micro break in
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+[9:08] something and then when you blend the hell, uh, you know, out of it with another like smooth, especially emulsified ingredient like butter, it'll come back into shape on
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+[9:15] you. In fact, I have a recipe for milk syrup, which I'm actually going to talk about later because of
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+[9:21] a question we have if we get to it, where the whole point is you make a micro break in it.
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+[9:26] So you stabilize the milk with sugar, you make a micro break in it with a little bit of acid, and it curds it a little bit, and that, like, little bit of brake actually keeps it smooth because you break the
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+[9:37] pieces that have broken. You break them into pieces smaller than your tongue can taste, which is roughly
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+[9:44] 20 micrometers is roughly the limit that your tongue can sense in terms of. Now, you can sense different textures smoother than that. Like things can become more unctuous all of a sudden, but in terms of actual grit or
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+[9:54] particles. You can't really tell much below 20 micrometers. So, um... It is
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+[10:02] microchrometers, right? Yes. Yeah. Uh, the uh, getting my, I'm making sure that I'm metric. The, uh, the point being that, um, it's easy to do. And so if something is breaks a little bit, it can actually be more stabilized if the ensuing actions break it into pieces that are finer than your tongue can
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+[10:19] taste, and it no longer agglomerates afterwards. I don't know, is that helpful at all? Yeah, gotcha. That makes total sense. Yeah. So I'm thinking that's what happened. I'm thinking that you did some sort of partial break and then when you put it into the other thing, It just, you know, brought it all back together and whatever the partial break was, is stable now. Now, the flip is, I have no freaking idea what's in mango that would make it behave differently.
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+[10:43] If anything, I would guess passionfruit would be the evil thing because it's so acidic, you know? Yeah, yeah. Was it mango puree nasty or was it good? Did taste nasty? Uh, no, it was, it came out like exactly how I wanted it. It was super silky smooth and like you could not even tell that it had remotely even broken at all. So you did not ruin the wedding? No. Yeah, no, I was going to say, did you ruin the wedding some other way? Did you do some sort of like Steve B. semi toast at the end and like, you know... No, I didn't bring any plain white toast either. Oh, man. Well, we're working on it. We'll work on the plain white. We work on the good plain white toast. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, see you. Bye, all right. So, uh, see what we got here. Well, might as well do the milk question now, right? Unless any, do you guys, do you guys have any pressing cooking questions before I get to the... while you were talking about passion fruit? While you're talking about passion fruit, why is passion fruit so delicious? Ah, do you know there are very, very many different kinds of pasiflora, uh, fruits that, you know, the whole, the genus, right? Passifora fruits that are consumed worldwide, especially in South America.
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+[11:53] And we only get one of them. Maybe two. Like nowadays, you can sometimes get the yellow, like the grenadilla style ones up here. but we usually get the small wrinkly ones. And I like them all, but they aren't all strictly speaking delicious. Do you like, well, Paul does, I'm sure, but do you like musky flavors, folks? Stas. What do you think about a musky fruit? No, Peter? No? sound very good. There's like some very musky passiflora ones in like weird shapes. Like there's one that looks like an overgrown Australian finger lime kind of
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+[12:27] Koruba and it's got a very musky kind of note to it. So maybe that's not inherently delicious. But also, like, there's something, you know how leachy gets sweaty? Yes. Yeah. So I think sometimes passionfruit, it's not the same kind of sweat, but I can get some sweat on a passionfruit. What do you guys think? Sweat on fruit. But I like it. I do think it's delicious. It's just so acidic. I like anything freaking acidic, and I like the texture of the little seedy seeds. It's acidic, but it's also got that like juiciness that's a certain kind of acidity that Yuzu
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+[13:00] has and a couple of other tropical fruits. Also, related question. You know how like you group together tropical fruit flavors as sort of a category? Is there an actual common thread between tropical fruits? I asked someone that once. And you know what the answer was? They didn't answer my question. So I don't know. You think about like, right, like mango, banana, papaya. Well, okay, those are all your lactone fruits, right? Well, and like a lot of them have a lot of real high ester notes too. And, you know, like a lot of those really kind of like high volatilizing things. I don't know. Maybe there's something about tropical environment that requires fruits to be extremely volatile. And not like volatile, like I'm volatile, like volatile, like aroma chemicals. But the, um, it is interesting, but it's true. It's very there are very few temperate fruits that have tropical notes in
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+[13:51] them. Strawberries, right? Have a little bit of that, although they're clearly a temperate taste, but they can some of the other ones have some higher notes, especially when they start to go off. Uh, yeah, a good peach. Some apples. Yeah, the rare apple. But like, you know what? The one that really tastes like it's a tropical fruit, that is completely temperate is the may apple. The American, uh, it's, but you can't get it because it's poisonous, but it's not really poisonous, but it's like kind of poisonous. It's like meto-metopoisonous. It's like, it's like, it's poisonous to the extent that if they sold it in the supermarket, somebody would kill themselves because they would eat the seeds and they would eat it unripe, but once it's
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+[14:31] ripened, and I only got a couple of them last year, I have a whole like plot of them, and I was like, oh, I'm going to let them ripen one more week before I pull them in, and in that week, the animals came and ate everyone but two.
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+[14:43] I'm talking, I have, like, bigger than this studio of, like, uh, uh,
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+[14:49] may apple tree, but, you know, you know, whatever they call, little plants. You know what I mean? perennial. And um, all gone, but two. But when it finally ripened, man, that was delicious. It'd be worth dying for, the poisonous, because it's like tropical, but it grows in Connecticut anyway. When does it hit? They're on the thing now. Right now, they're the size of what size is that? They're this big. The size of off one right, man. the size of a large shooter marble. Yeah. But, uh, they're they're still green. I've just got to, I can't let him go. that one week. As soon as he starts to show signs of ripening, I'm going to pull him and let him ripen inside. You can get on this weekend, no? No, it needs to go longer than that. It says May because they show up in May, but like last year it wasn't like, it was after Fourth of July is when they got when they got taken. This year is so weird anyway with what's it called? What's it called? Weather. What's that thing? What's that thing? Weather. Anyway, so that's a delicious tropical fruit. You know what, a fruit that I've never tried that I grew up with, but I was always petrified of? You familiar, you guys remember with U, Y-E, W, U, the wood? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, tax sodium species, I think. And so, uh, so it obviously it doesn't have actual technical fruit because it's a conifer, so
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+[16:05] that's not an angius berm has no flowers, therefore has no fruit. Right? Right. So, but it has what's called an arrow that looks like a fruit, and it's like a red, we'll call it a berry, even though it's not a berry, but it's a red berry, and you can always tell a
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+[16:20] you, because it's got the red berries on it, and the red berries have like a hole in the front of them, like sunken, they look like a
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+[16:26] cup, right? like an olive, like an olive, like a pitted olive. Yeah, like a pitted olive, right? Like a red mini red martini olive. And, uh, and so, what's interesting is, is that even a couple of the seeds crushed will kill you. But the fruit, apparently, the actual arrow itself, the red part? Okay. I don't yeah, I'm not taking that. But I don't have I don't have the cojones. I don't got the stones. I do, but is it delicious? Oh, I don't know. I haven't found anyone that's actually eating it. Where's the seat? Right inside the damn thing. So you have to like squash them but not crush the seeds and like and make sure you spit the seeds out because literally I've read cases of like kids who've eaten 3 of them are down for the
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+[17:08] kids. Now strangely, strangely, the conifer hemlock, not related to the poisonous hemlock, totally edible. You can make a tea from the hemlock, right? And apparently nice beds because it's nice and soft if you're in the woods woodcrafting. But you, no, so you doesn't sound poisonous, sounds fine. is deadly poisonous. Hemlock sounds poisonous, is not. It's the water hemlock that's poisonous, which, as we all know, related to parsley and all those things, which is why you should never forage for what, Peter? Wild freaking partially, Peter. You're going to kill your whole family. Never forage for wild freaking parsley. Hey, there we got another caller on the line. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how's it going? Doing all right. Good, it's Chris from the green zone in DC. Hey, how you doing? Good, how are you? Hey, did you ever have any luck with like stabilized mint tea green liquors? No, not really. Have you ever thought, but did you ever try doing? I have a fruit question for you as long as we're talking about fruits and acids. All right, all right. Um, I'm doing a drink that has bitter orange juice in it, but bitter oranges are now out of
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+[18:11] season, and I wanted to know if there are any substitutes. Okay. Does, look, I don't know anything about DC. Do you have a hardcore Latin neighborhood in DC? sort of. Bitter oranges are never out of season in Latin markets, but they're not the good. I mean, okay, I don't want to be like, they're not the ones that you might think of as good ones. like they're not Seville's. They're not like, they don't have really nice skins or anything like that. No, that's fine, because I'm using the juice. Yeah. And the juice, to be honest, not like super on point point, but it's got not just a sourness. So like, you know, obviously at the bar, like I take regular oranges and I hit them with acid to get the acid profile that I like, but it doesn't have the kind of bitterness that the bitter oranges have, but Latin markets have their version of bitter orange, you know, that's like mashed up with garlic and
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+[19:00] whatnot. Like they have them like all year long. At least in New York, they do. They have them all year long. Yeah, and you can get it bottled. Oh, yeah, come on. Really? You can buy that in a bottle? Yeah, you need it bottled, but it doesn't sound very good. Well, it's with garlic, so you probably wouldn't want it in the bar. Yeah, and also, like, I can't think of anything. Do you like Paul? Do you like, uh, that like, that chopped last year garlic stuff? I haven't really tried it. You know what I'm talking about? It's that it's that thing that looks like convenience garlic. It's like weird. Yeah, that stuff nasty. My grandma used to buy that exclusively. My grandma, you know, died in the, I don't know, like early 90s maybe. Yeah, early 90s. She was like, look what they can do now. They can put chopped up garlic in a jar. I'm like, no, they can't, grandma. tasted this stuff. You know what I mean? Anyway, um, whatever. But so I would do that. Or I would say that you, you know, you could try acid adjusting it, but it's not
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+[19:57] going to have that, um, that bitter. What blend of acids is in a bitter orange. Well, okay, I cheat, and I just turn it into lime juice. And so, yeah, if you, I mean, like, I have the recipe for that in the book. But look, here's the thing. I would assume I've used straight, bitter oranges off the trees in Arizona and I've used
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+[20:19] straight, bitter orange shoes for cocktails before. I don't remember what the ratio is, but it's pretty damn close to lemon or lime juice in terms of total acidity. And so what you're looking at there is a 6%. You're looking at 6% of 80. So you can choose what kind of acidity you want. You know, if you want, if you want to stay more on the lemon side, then, you know, citric. If you want to shade it towards the lime side, you know, all the way to 2 to one mount. I wouldn't go more than 2 to one citric to Malik. go higher in Malik because I don't think it's going to taste citrus anymore. I think it'll take on some other kind of notes, but like anywhere in that, uh, in that ratio is is fine, and, you know, the, the, the ratio to turn it into lime juice would be, uh,
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+[21:04] 32, roughly, depending on the oranges. You have roughly 32 grams of citric and 20 grams of Malik per liter. So you're looking at an additional acid of, uh, someone
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+[21:15] help me out of 30 to 52 grams of acid per liter in any sort of ratio up to about 20 grams of
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+[21:22] Malik should do it. And that way all of your bartenders can just use it as though it were lemon or lime
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+[21:29] juice. And you don't have to worry about them like being like, oh, I got to flat or I got
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+[21:33] to use a fat half ounce of this because it's not the same. The crappy thing about the, the juice, the yield on the, on the Latin sour oranges is bad, if
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+[21:45] you, um, are going to strain it, because the pulp tends to be very coarse, and so you lose kind of a lot to the pulping, uh, the pulp is straining,
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+[21:54] but, you know, try it. They're okay. I like them, but they're different. They're very different from the Sevillees, very. Well, what about the bitterness element? Oh, they're bitter. I mean they're bitter-ish. You know what I mean? I mean, if I'm doping orange juice. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can, I mean, you can add any sort of like bitters, anything, I guess, or you could like throw some peel in there and let it macerate for a while.
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+[22:17] You know what I mean? And then that'll be... What about like, um... bitter orange essential oil? Oh, I never used it. I never used it. You'd probably want to suspend that in some alcohol and then stir it in, but it might break. You might need to have a little bit of... Yeah. See what sewer. I've caught that as you probably remember. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, like let us know how it works. Yeah, I'll give it a side. Jack should definitely come check out Green Zones in DC. Oh, that's right. You sure will. call in from calling from there to one of the shows and go and go do it. But you got to figure out the mint before he comes out. He's not going to come to you until you figure out the green mint. right. Yeah. All righty. All right, well we'll work on it. All right, so should we go back to the question? Got another caller too. Oh, call, okay, caller. You on the air. Hey there, Dave, I got a quick question for you, but first, I also want to say, thank Zach. Congrats on your new venture. pretty awesome, dude. Thanks, man. Yeah. Okay, so Dave, I've been doing a sourdough culture for a while, like a couple years.
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+[23:22] Um, and have fed it with all different types of flour, but recently have been feeding it with gold medal. Um, and they just had a big recall uh, because of possible E. coli contamination on some of
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+[23:38] their, some of their flowers. So my question is, um, Well, you remind me of the time and temperature killing regimen for E.
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+[23:48] coli, and like, am I going to have to toss out my 3 year old tower starter because I'm going to go ahead and say no. The chances, the chances of you, the god's honest truth is, I don't know whether, look, your sourdough starter isn't going to kill E. coli, but I don't, like, your sourdough starter is a huge melange of different microbes, and I think you're probably, the E. coli is probably going to get way out competed, especially over, if you're keeping it
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+[24:17] alive. It means you're feeding it and using it on a regular basis. And so it's going to get out-competed. And there's E. coli is what we in the trade like referred to as ubiquitous. It's everywhere. So, you know, if you have a toddler anywhere in the house. It's gotten anywhere near it, you like decolide, up and down, all over, like, you know, left and right all over that. unless you dip your hands and bleach every time that you're touching it, like their
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+[24:40] E. coli has gotten in it before. So I would say, no, I wouldn't worry about it. Also, unless you're eating sourdough raw, like you are cooking the hell out of bread, even if you, let's say you let your sourdough go for such a long time that it's an acid bomb and you need to bring it
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+[25:01] back, and so you make pancakes with a whole bunch of it so that you can have a small amount that you bring back to life again, which is a valid
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+[25:07] use, because as we all know, sourdough pancakes, you're using the acidity of the sourdough starter of an overdone sourdough starter in conjunction
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+[25:15] with baking soda as a base, you're not actually using the actual acid, the actual flora of it. anyway. So even in that, pancakes are you're cooking the hell out of a pancake and you're going to be killing the hell out of the cola. Yeah. Yeah, I think all the gold medal illnesses were from people eating raw dough. Yeah, raw dough. And remember this. Like, so what happened? Now, obviously, obviously, sourdough starter is a good place for bacterial and yeast growth. Otherwise, guess what? It wouldn't work, right? But I'm thinking you're going to be out competed, and I would not, I mean, like, there's so many chances for contamination. And just think of the lawsuits. I'm just kidding. No kidding. I kidding. I never recommend, never recommend, never recommend lawsuits. But I'll also say this. It must have been, I haven't read the research since I looked at it originally, but it must have
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+[26:08] been contamination of a liquid on a grain perhaps when it was going through the tempering step prior to being milled.
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+[26:15] There's a couple of places that you can get contamination on the grain. And then, uh, obviously, you know, you're not killing the
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+[26:23] bacteria, uh, it can go dormant in the dry conditions and that's how it can theoretically survive. Yada, yada, but I personally, I would feed it to my family. That's all I'm saying. Awesome. Okay. Cool. Thanks, Dave. Appreciate it. No problem. Okay. Back to the milk question. Yeah, what's this milk question? All right, this is Ben from Rhode Island. He says, making a clarified milk punch. I want to keep the punch base, grapefruit pineapple, whole milk, matcha tea, separate from the booze, so I can figure it out as an
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+[26:52] alacarte cocktail, use it with different spirits and minimize waste. I'm getting very small curds. That's my next band. Small curds. Small curds. Small curds. I'm getting very small curds. They are too small for even the finest of cheesecloth. The finest cheese cloth. Coffee filters work, especially super thick Chemex filters, but this is a brutal process. One of the things, as we all know, that Nastasia Lopez will never do. is filter liquor through coffee filters. Yeah. Never, never. You know what? She'd be like, no, and she'd walk away. That would be it. It's one of those things. Why? It's detestable. She's like, I'm done. You know how like, uh... No, I'll do liquor through coffee filters. I won't do grapefruit juice freezeball. Ever. Ever. Yeah. She walk, it's like, you know, but I think it's the kind of thing like, like, like pooping in diapers where you say you're done with it, but you never
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+[27:49] know you might go back to it later. Good. What? Well, you do? I do what I have to. You know me. It's like, it's like, it's like, if I'm in a situation where I have to do it, I'll be like, oh, but I'm getting better, nostasia. I am now choosing things that don't require me to do the awful
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+[28:09] thing. Like, it used to be so eager to please, that I would just choose the thing that I thought was absolutely the best, and then figure out how to do it later, which often meant screwing us.
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+[28:21] But now I'm like, I'm going to choose something that's really good. But it's also not gonna screw us. getting older. You familiar with the gangrene album, older Budweiser? Yeah, good strong. But they, uh, they were famous for a, uh... Yeah, older Budweiser. yeah. They were famous for, they did a cover of Voices Carey. They did a hardcore cover of Voices Carrie in the 80s that won some very important Boston Battle of the
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+[28:51] bands and it rocketed them to quote unquote fame in the comedy hardcore world.
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+[28:55] They, I think they, for a minute, they were past the dead milkman. It was like, who's going to be the comedy hardcore, like, you know,
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+[29:02] group, is it going to be gangrene or is it going to be dead milkman? And it's back and forth. I like them both. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, milk punch. How did we get on this? What were you talking about, small cards? I'm getting very small curds. They are too small for even the finest cheese cloth, coffee filters, work, especially the thick Chemex filters, but it's a brutal process. Would upping the acid increase the size of the curd, making it easier to clarify any other
+
+[29:26] tips. Yeah, I don't think upping the acid. In fact, I've had someone over, like, somehow they were able to rapidly acidify it and then like stop it from breaking. Here's what I would do in this order, depending on whether you need to do it right now, like today, or you can wait. So I did a little test this morning, and the problem, one of the problems with your recipe is if your recipe has a lot of sugar in it, sugar tends to stabilize, as I said before, with milk syrups, it tends to stabilize and create very
+
+[29:54] small, very, very small curds. In fact, sometimes such that it doesn't even look like it's broken. So I would not put any sugar into your recipe or as little sugar as you
+
+[30:03] can. You know, I mean, as little as you can, until later on in the recipe after you've broken the milk. That's one. Two, uh, anything you can do to uh, destabilize um, the protein so that they go together in big clumps would help. So I did this. I did, I didn't know what your, I don't know your recipe is. So I did 50% water, 50% milk, right? And then I added, uh, so I did, uh, ounce, ounce, ounce, ounce, and then in
+
+[30:34] one, I added another half ounce of water and some citric acid to break it, and another
+
+[30:37] one, I added a half, a half ounce only of uh, 30 proof. I had some 30 proof old banana hostino vodka right in, but a small amount of alcohol just to help destabilize it a little
+
+[30:48] bit, and citric acid, and I got much bigger fluffier curd and better yield out of the one that had even a small amount of alcohol.
+
+[30:55] So if it doesn't need to be like alcohol, like, doesn't need to be alcohol free for kids, even a small dose of alcohol
+
+[31:02] would help destabilize it if you need to do it right now. And also, your technique, how you move the curd around can cause the curd to be bigger. If you move it gently around, and as I like to say, sweep the spoon around, to let the Kurds get bigger and
+
+[31:16] bigger as they pull casing in from outside, that's going to help. Lastly, it's pretty much universally recognized that Renet does a better job of making big curds than acid.
+
+[31:27] So if you can, uh, if you can go on the internets and buy rent it to do your curting instead of acid, it's microbial, so you don't need to worry about it being, you know,
+
+[31:35] killing some baby animals for it. I mean, unless you want to, in which case you can get to baby animal one, if you need to have dead animal in your cocktail, you can do it.
+
+[31:43] Um, but the, um, Anyway, so I would do it uh, in that order. And that reminds me, last week we had a question about, uh, that's enough, right? So that was on that? Yeah. So last week we had a question about spices and freezing them. And I remembered, like, afterwards, what I forgot to say. Another reason to free spices. We were talking, the questionnaire was worried about, the questionnaire was worried about spoilage and all this other stuff and whether or not the freestyle would be a problem and moisture and
+
+[32:12] blah, blah, blah. Here's a good reason to free spices. A lot of spices are infested with the eggs of insects, like weevils and other nasty little things. is especially true on like, the more artisanal your product is, the more likely it is, it's infested with some sort of
+
+[32:28] crazy thing. Uh, even like uh, flowers that you get. If you get like small run flowers from artisanal places that don't have like, you know, don't have like E. coli spraying quality controls kind of situations in it. Um, they can have infestations in them. And if you're worried about long-term storage or something that might have insect eggs in
+
+[32:49] it, freeze. I always get my spices at duel, the, like, Indian shop. You ever had any, ever had any hatching? No, they have dates on all of them, which is great. Date the date, not the fruit. You know what, though? People make those freaking dates up. Oh, I know so. I have seen it happen. But like the, uh, like the, but no, but it's good to know, it's, you know what? you know what a date's good for, it's good for you as a consumer to know how long you've had it anyway.
+
+[33:18] But I'm not going to say where I bought it. wasn't dual specialty, but there was a particular brand of flour that I still to this day buy because I really like it. Uh, an Indian, um, uh, like a chapati flower that is, uh, that like is like, I love it because it's like, it's, it's whole. It's mostly whole grain, but it's really soft and it doesn't puncture like whole wheat
+
+[33:39] does, so it's really good adjunct to like biscuits. If you want to give it a little bit of wheatiness. like I really like it. Biscuits. Biscuits. Everyone likes some buttonastas, yeah. I had something else in my heartbeat on that. Yeah, don't get me started. Please. You didn't know this? What? Peter you did not know this? Well, I mean, I would have guessed. You would have guessed? Why? Because they're delicious? Because everybody loves biscuits and they're delicious. too dry for me. Well, that's why they invented butter. as a category? That's why they invented butter in the stocksia. They have 2 they have 2 solutions to your problem. I'll name two. butter, jelly. I'll name some more. Honey, molasses, good molasses, not that bull crap that we get normally in the supermarket. I got a question for Jack or in the chat room. Nice. What the question? Jack, what is your favorite meal? Um, First thing that came to mind was like Kachue Pepe done right? Nastasia, why don't you give us your thoughts on that, on that? I know you have serious thought. No, you're the... When is they done right, it has to be like, I agree with Stas on this. Like, it's got to be Al Dente, and like... You like it, like, hard as, hard as, no,
+
+[34:47] like, a little bit more than Aldente. Since that's you're saying you don't like it hard? I do like it. I made her do it. Made her say it. Wow. Yeah. But no, Nastasia likes it hard to the point of like small core on the inside. Oh, like they're still white in the middle of the news. A tiny bit. I kind of get down with that. Yeah? I like Bukitini. No, no, I like Bugatini. That shit. I mean, that's stuff. Oh, leave me out. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm too used to Lahey being on. Pepe. guess that's the answer. I think that's a weird word. It doesn't sound like it reminds me, like, I think there's a dude making it. I think I think it's like a dude named Pepe that's making it. Oh, Pepe's making. Like, that's why, like, somehow, like, I don't know. I don't I can't, you know, I don't know any. I don't know any actual Italian, like Nastasia here. So. Anyway, we have a question about should I talk about the rice? Or do you want to talk more about that? You want to talk more about you? We had a question in the crab. Is that enough? You want to talk about it? Yeah, I think that's enough. You make that for yourself? Yeah, I don't do that that great of a job, though. Why? you up your game? How can I up my game? It's the finishing step there, you know, it's just the consistency is never like perfectly... Do you like using pasta water? Yeah, of course. You have to. No, I actually tried it out. Kenji has a weird technique where he kind of, uh, cooks the pasta dry in a, like a, like a saucepan, like risotto style? Yeah, exactly. Porque. Why? I don't know. I tried it. I know a bunch of people that have talked about pre-frying their pasta. I never really bought. I never bought them. I never done it. I did it once and did it again. No? It's called like Pasoto or something. Really? I heard somebody say that, yeah. Pesto? Why would they call it that? Well, it's when you use the liquid that the pasta is cooking in as a sauce. Oh, no, he's talking about pre-frying the pasta like a risotto. Yeah. Peter's zoned out. a chance. Have we got another caller if you want to take it? I was sleeping. Okay, call her. on the air. Hello, Dave. Longtime listener, first time caller. What? You made it under the wire. You still have Jack here. Yeah nice. up? I know that's against the rules, but one is actually for a different show altogether called issues. Oh wow. Wow. Let's start with that. Longtime listener. Yeah, so my 1st question is for Jack, and it's in regards to Darcy's show, Chef's
+
+[37:07] talk. Chef story yeah. And then that is going to fold into my 2nd question for cooking issues. All right. I was listening. I listened to a lot of shows on the Heritage Network, and the one thing I always can understand is why Dorothy can't remember your name when she thinks about the end of the episodes and
+
+[37:21] always tells you Jack Inis. You know, Dorothy has a lot going on. She's a very busy woman. She's she's awesome. She's awesome. But I do laugh every time I get called Jack Innis on that show. Is that a thing? Is Jack Innis like a person? Is there an innis somewhere? No. Is it like a baseball player or something? She's called, she calls Aaron, Aaron Fairchild sometimes. Fairbanks. she just, you know, mixes up the names a little bit. Yeah. I'm glad you noticed that, though. Thanks. I just figured you'd fix it in post-production, but that's cool. Oh, no, you should do it the way I do it for everything. Just put a totally different voice in. Right. And thanks to Jack Insley. Yeah, yeah. Or just the Insley part. Right, yeah, yeah. Insley. Insley. My ringtone for Peter. I got to play that. If I have time, I'll play that. play my Peter ringtone. Oh, well, you start, you get your 2nd question going and I'll get, I'll get Peter's ringtone up here. All right, sounds good. So I was listening to an episode where Steve Jenkins was being interviewed and basically called out the olive oil industry and cold press not being a real thing. And I started to look into like raw juice and juice bars and I've always been a fan of the champion juicer and wanted to see what the fundamental differences
+
+[38:32] were. And everyone that I see who puts out a cold pressed juice
+
+[38:38] machine gets you to get a food processor where you blend the ingredients 1st and then cold press that. Yeah. You mean like Norwalk? industry, like complete horse hockey, or is it a legitimate thing? Uh, I don't know. Here, listen to this first. No child wants to play with a gator. In the box? No child wants to play with a gater in the box? Yeah. That's whenever Peter calls me, that's what I that's what I get on my phone. But the... Before that, it was the sound of me in pain from burning my hands on the
+
+[39:09] puffing gun. which I'll also play for you. Yeah. I don't I don't honestly have any experience with the cold press, and I'm sure you're talking about like Norwalks. Uh, you know, where it's basically just like a carjack with a bunch of stainless steel surrounding it and it crushes it. The people I know who have juice bars. Like, they love it because they say it's low temperature, but like, like you say, if you have to put it through a whole bunch of blending operations first, there's the opportunity for heating it before it goes into the
+
+[39:45] press. Paul, I bet you've played with that crap. You play with that crap at all? That sounds like something you would play with. Sounds like something you would call into popular science. Not yet. Paul, yeah. Yeah, because they're like 1000s of dollars for no particular reason. Brian Lamb of the wire cutter on the sweet home is a gadget guy and a cold juice guy.
+
+[40:02] Brian, are you listening? I don't know. So, you know, call or tweeting, give us the answer. I, look, I'm gonna, I can't come down one way or the other on, on cold juicing. I'll tell you this. The champion juicer heats the hell out of the juice sometimes, especially like case 3 or 4 of apples and you're not stopping and you're cranking through. I've had the champion heat the juice. I've had the champion boil water. I've melted the magnets, the protective magnets in the champion juicer from going to town on it. And partially, that's why I love it so. But, you know, the different juicers do have different qualities and it's not just the temperature. It's the way the extraction works. I tested the Breville versus the champion on apple juice this year and the juice qualities were very different. Not better, not worse, different. We got a caller who claims to have the answer to the juicing question. All right, here we go. Caller, you are on the air with the answer to the juicing question. Hey, David, Antoine from Boca. I remember I told you I used to run at juice bar. That is true before you saw the light and started eating meat and, you know, cooking fish and all this other stuff. And I now work in the cocktail bar as well. It's just full circle. But yeah, there's really almost no difference as well. Having worked with both doing it at the taste wise, is minimal. If anything, the traditional juicers that are on cold press actually last longer. Really? From what I've used? Yeah. Huh. Huh. Wait, when you use traditional juicers, though, are you using neutrafasters? or are you using champions? Champions. Champions. Because the neutral faster is so fat, literally, I mean, that I bet you it doesn't heat juice at all.
+
+[41:39] It's such a monster. Did you have a neutra faster at your juice bar? No, we used, um, it's called the good nature, which is basically a super version of the
+
+[41:49] Norwalk, essentially. Okay. Same principle, which is bigger. Even more expensive. Yeah, about 10 times more expensive. And you were like, this is Holcomb. Pardon? You were like, this is horse hockey. This is BS. This makes no difference. Oh, totally. So much so. I mean, yeah. I, uh, the cold juicing is the biggest sham I could ever. Nice. But if your concern is enzymes acting on the juice. As long as it's not warm for very long. I don't think you're going to run into too much trouble. I was talking regards to the whole cold juice, like in raw thing altogether. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's good to know I mean, I have no experience, so, you know, I'll, I'm gonna put, I like that you threw that out there over the bow. Maybe I hope we get other people and being like, man. Let me tell you something about cold pressed juice, though. looks fantastic on a menu. That stuff sells. You put cold pressed juice on a menu and people
+
+[42:49] were like, copress. I think it sounds like I should care, right? Doesn't it sound like I should care? We've, we didn't heat the juice and destroy all of its vital nutrients. Dave, it's like our idea for calling milk boob deuce. Yeah, so Peter had this idea yesterday to have a milk brand called boob juice. And Peter, obviously, habitual line crosser, as we've known, takes it just to the edge of the family show and then crosses over
+
+[43:15] it. But the reason why we were talking about Hagen-Dazs. We're like, I got in an argument with Peter because, um, you know, I hate
+
+[43:23] any any labeling on any food of any type, claiming health, of any sort at all. I just don't like it at all. I don't think, I hate it when people say the X, Y, Z piece of garbage is healthy because, you know, just, you know, I hate it.
+
+[43:39] It's like, it's like just, whatever, leave it off. And so we were saying that ice cream should get the healthy label, but the ingredients should be boob juice, vegetable juice, rare
+
+[43:51] orchid seeds. Yeah. Cold pressed. Cold press. Very cold pressed. Well, no, but you have to heat the vanilla to get it to ferment right. So it's a cold pressed boob juice. Cold press boob juice. Coldpress boob juice, vegetable juice. Which is, you know, sugar, cane, and rare tropical orchid for your health. Vanilla. yeah. Health, health. Is that a Steve Brule reference? Health. But that's for Philly style. Do you have an alternate label for eggs? Like, that's Philly, that would be a Philly style. That's old style briars. is boob juice, vegetable juice. and tropical orchid. Yeah. Chicken seeds. Huge. can see. Oh, man, you go, you go some sort of weird, creepy gross, like, that's like, someone who thinks of a chicken as a plant is like, that's like just
+
+[44:46] some, like, weird. It's weird up in this. Nastasia has a different face than normal. It's kind of a freaked out face. little bit of a freaked out face. Nice. All right. Okay. Shyra. Well, you know what? Any of you guys experts on Japanese rice?
+
+[45:07] Yeah, of course. Look to me. Nastasia really showing her true colors here. She thought I was Chinese for the record. She did not think you were Chinese. She did not think... For years. We knew each other for years. Last year, we clarified that I'm not Chinese. I mean, last year. the day I've known you, I know you're Korean. Yeah, yeah, you. Stas is brain. I was Chinese over the last year. is not the case, man. I know that. She's not disputing. She's got her shut up face on right now. All right, so the, uh, you know what? I'll do the Japanese rice thing next, next, next week because this gets too long and involved Japanese rice. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. Shy writes in. Hello, cooking issues team. Thanks for answering my previous questions. You spoke before about making tofu from peanuts. I've wondered if you've tried using other pulses. I think I have, but I can't remember. It's been a long time since I've made non-traditional tofu. Modernist cuisine's done a lot of work on non-traditional tofus. You can go look up their stuff. And the peanuts. I didn't have super great success with them because it didn't clot as well. I mean, other people have had good success. I looked it up on the internets today. And I know the modernist cuisine folks did a lot. anyway, whatever. I made tempeh from peanuts. Earlier this year. It was a successful tempe, but it was disgusting tasting. Successful, texturally, it the mold grew correctly. Yeah, looked good. Smelled bad, tasted bad. Not like toxic bad. If you think it smells bad. Paul's, remember, that was Paul Adams, the man who brought an open can of surfstraming in a taxi home with him and didn't think it was a problem. So if Paul thought it smelled bad, it stank up. It stank. It stank. I previously made a ginko tempe. Oh, my God. What? Gecko nuts are the worst, most foul smelling things. You have to wash the bejesus out of them before they're even usable. Oh, all right. Half ginkko nuts, half dried soybeans, delicious tempeh. You know what people used to write? you ever read old, like, horticultural books? I haven't. I mean, doesn't say right, I meant read. Ginko, they're like, people only plant the female ginkos because, I mean, sorry, the male
+
+[47:29] ginkos because the nut stinks so bad. I was thinking nuts, male, but no, in front of the female tree. But the point is, is that that's not the case, right outside the Mofads offense, there used to be a ginkgo nut that a ginkgo tree that would drop its stinky nuts all over the tree all over the sidewalk.
+
+[47:43] Used to step on the stinky nuts. are you talking about? Stars, you remember the stinky ginko nuts. Red ones? No, they're like this and they're on the ground. You step on and you're like, oh, what smells like vomit? They're our old office. Yeah, yeah, yeah. of course. There were stinky nuts all over there. Stinky. We're getting the high sign over there. Oh, man. All right. Well, listen, I'll answer. I'll answer Shy's question about Burmese tofu from chickpeas next week. Hopefully I can get Francis Lamb. You couldn't talk about it this week because whatever. Hey, listen, all love and thanks to my man Jack Insley for all the years of cooking issues and being a part of the show, being a part of the team, being our
+
+[48:21] friend. We'll miss you. My favorite part. Cheers, Paul. Not you, Dave. I'll come make cameos. I'll come prank you from all different places. We'll be back next week with more cooking issues, but it won't be the same. Oh, bye guys.
+
+[48:42] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the poet Goddard professor of Nutrition Food Studies and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member based nonprofit radio station operating out of
+
+[0:17] Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed. The interviewers are always really well prepared. and fun to talk to about the issues that mattered to me the most, about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people and the environment.
+
+[0:36] It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage radio network by becoming a member today. Go to heritageradionetwork.org and click on the beating heart to donate. Today's program was brought to you by Ito N, the leading green tea company and makers of Oi Ocha, Japan's number one selling green tea. For more information, visit itoen.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Gitches coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday at Roberta's Pizzeria in
+
+[1:37] Bushwick. Not joined, as usual, with Nastasi the Hammer Lopez. She is on her way. For those of you who are devotees or the L-train, you can go to is the L-train eft, but you have to spell out the curse word, but my son's here, and it's a familyshow.com. Notice that the L-train is in fact shafted right now. Nastasi will be joining us shortly. Additionally, sad to say, last week was Jack, Jackie Molecule, Insley's last week here in the booth. And so we don't have Jack this week either. David's taking over his duties in the booth. Hi, David. He's not there. He's there. Hey how's it going? Hey, all right. God, keep on your toes, man. I'm going to sit there and pester you. You never know when I'm gonna pester you. Yeah, thank you everybody. Thank you. Yeah, we have we have 2 special guests. Our scheduled special guest and our non-special schedule. What should we do first? We'll do my non-schedule first. Oh, here's Nastasia coming in. We have my son Dax Arnold. So for any of your, yay, for any of your 11-year-old questions, you can call in your questions to
+
+[2:34] 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. But the actual guest of honor today. Hey, Mastasia, the actual guest of honor today is Meethead Goldwin, who wrote a new book. It's an eponymous book. It's called Meathead. And it was, hold a sec, I have to move away from Nastasia to pass me. It was the last time I checked, like the number 2 cookbook on Amazon, which is like an amazing achievement. I'm out of my mind with happiness. It's great. And so, uh, and the, uh, I always forget, even though, like, I actually have one too. What's the thing that they after the colon on a title? What do they call that? Semicolon? No, no, I mean, you know what I'm saying? the spiel after. Oh, you know, the subtitle. Okay, subtitle. The subtitle of the book is the science of great barbecue and grilling, separate, of course, subjects. That was supposed to be the title originally. But the marketing guy said, well, let's name an FDU meathead. And then we had this really beautiful picture of a rib to go on the cover, and they said, no, let's put your ugly face on the cover. Well, you owe them a bottle of champagne. Because, you know, you know, that's the thing. You got 2 things in a book, I've noticed. You got the actual content needs to be really good. And two, people need to want to buy it and pick it up at the
+
+[3:50] first, after a while you get word of mouth and then you could, this could come in a brown paper wrapper after a while. But, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's like, uh, my editor, um, Maria Guarnaschelli also edited uh, Jim Lahey, the bread baker's book. Yeah. And she wrote as the subtitle on his 1st book that he came out with, no,
+
+[4:08] like for the bread, no need. And she added afterwards, no work. No work. Book sold more than any other bread book. Of course. Of course. That's why Maria's a genius. Stuff like this. So, call in all of your grilling related questions and or barbecue related questions. Now we're talking, this can be, I'm going to, I read, read the book. I'm going to, uh, we're going to pester each other on some of the myths and whatnot, is, uh, Professor Blonder going to call in or no? Do we have him or no? Yeah, I'd like to give him. I've respected his work for a long time. I think his what's his blog is called, what, original ideas? genuine ideas. Great blog. like yeah, he did the 1st work I saw on, um, salt penetration where he actually used a, uh, like a chemical reaction to show the actual salt penetration because, you know, the problem with I
+
+[4:57] tried for a long time, um, a die work, which you have in in, in the book and you, and you know that you did with him. The interesting thing about dye, obviously, is dye is a much larger molecule than salt. So if you're trying to check salt penetration, you need to actually reveal the salt in it.
+
+[5:11] His work is just great, I think. He's really brilliant. He stumbled into my website and asked me some questions and I started asking him
+
+[5:18] questions and we just struck off a relationship and he has taught me so much. His name is on the cover under mine. It's my book that I couldn't have done it without him. He's tremendous. So why don't we, before we get into it, right? So, why don't you, your website... Amazing website. And you can, and there's a, there's a club, right? The website has like a 1000 free pages, but there is a
+
+[5:43] pitmaster club, which is a paper member, part of the site, which is a community, and it's a lot of fun. And the book has 90 days free membership in the Pitmaster Club. Actually, here's what you get when you get when you get the book. You get a very interesting and good, you know, representation of the various science and practical aspects, frankly, of 1st what's going on
+
+[6:10] with it's basically the beginning's broken into 3 parts, right? The 1st one is a heat fundamentally, uh, and uh, producing it. The 2nd is meat and kind of how that works. And the 3rd is equipment. And then it goes into the recipe, says pretty accurate. So you get, you get, and the interesting thing about this is that the combo of you and Professor
+
+[6:32] Blonder, you're adding like a super kind of interesting scientific take, not like boring science, but like practical, like with experiments, by the way, added to kind of also years of experience and observation, which is kind of an unbeatable combo in a book like this.
+
+[6:47] They give you the insight that will help you think through cooking different foods, different thicknesses, different
+
+[6:53] styles. And so you can improvise. You can make it your own. Okay, so now we're going to go through some of the some of the stuff. So one of the, one of the things in the book is it, there's a series of uh, sidebars that are like, myth busted. It's one of the things. Myth, busted, not mythbusters, just myth, busted. I mean, you get the copy of here. How much this book cost on Amazon. Retail. Well, a list for 35 and Amazon's discounting it to around 21, I think. Yeah, bargain. You know what the good news? Is this your 1st book? Yeah, well, 1st barbecue book. Yeah. I did a bunch of books on beverage. Yeah, because, you know, your royalties are based on the on the retail, not on the on the cellophor. Yeah, say so, you know. Like the best is to have a book that costs a 100 bucks and sells for 10. I'm not worried. Well, especially not that you're, you know, number 2 book selling on Amazon. awesome. So, a couple things I think are interesting that I've never run the tests on. You want to talk about Briquette versus lump on charcoal? Oh boy, you picked a good one to start with. That's, um, I, I, you know, there's this cult about using lump charcoal, which looks like real wood, because it's made from burning chunks of wood in a low atmosphere, low oxygen
+
+[8:00] atmospheres, so that it carbonizes, and becomes char or pure carbon, which burns really efficiently in a grill.
+
+[8:08] And a lot of people think it's more natural. And we're in an area where natural food and organic food really appeals to the consumer. So it appeals to that audience strongly. But when you do that, you end up with chunks of wood of different size, different thickness, they burn unevenly. And if they're not charred all the way through. They can smoke it excessively. And you don't know what the wood is, that's smoking, all kinds of woods are mixed up in there. And it's quite common to find lumber in a bag of lump charcoal. Yeah, and I've found plastic and metal and other things in there. I don't know why foreign objects get in there so often, but I'm not a huge fan of it. Um, I want to control smoke. I want charcoal for heat and heat only. And if you use brickettes, which are made from sawdust, the
+
+[9:01] clumb together with some binders. And some people object to the use of the binders, but they're pretty natural products, whatever that means. I mean, arsenic is natural. They use cornstarch as a binder. But you have a uniform size, a uniform weight, a uniform quantum of heat,
+
+[9:20] per briket. Um, a Weber, uh, chimney contains 80 of those briquettes.
+
+[9:28] So you have exact heat and temperature control with the
+
+[9:33] briquettes and everything that I'm about, everything I'm curious about, everything we want to do on the
+
+[9:38] grill, is control, control heat, control fire, control smoke, I have more control with briquettes, and I recommend people use them.
+
+[9:47] It's constant all year round, you have one variable, fewer to deal with. I tell you what, for years, I've just kind of out of habit, gotten the lump, and I was convinced. I don't even need to run my own test. I was convinced by reading it. I'm going to go brick it. Now, just to everyone, everyone who listens to this show already knows, you do not mean the one that's impregnated
+
+[10:08] with with garbage. No, no, yeah. And they actually do. They use like a mineral spirits. The self-starting briquettes have mineral spirits or petroleum product in the briquette. And they do give an off smell and flavor. You can smell it a block away. You start charcoal. The best way is with a chimney. And it looks like a big coffee can, and it's got a false bottom, and you put newspaper under there, or a wad of paraffin under there, and it takes about 15 minutes, and you wait for the charcoal to be completely ashed
+
+[10:38] over when it's completely ashed over. It's burning really hot and emitting very little smoke. And I know people think charcoal is for smoke, but wood is for smoke. Charcoal is for flavor. What do you think about this? The, because one of the things, you know, when you, especially when you're exposed to, like in the culinary
+
+[10:57] world in the cooking school world in particular, a lot of Japanese chefs come over and they make a big, big deal, and it's a different purpose. So they're dealing with, yeah, they're dealing with their very high grade, extraordinarily expensive
+
+[11:07] binchoton. And for them, yeah, they're doing a much different technique. First of all, they're burning like a couple of sticks at a time. They need a super clear fire, typically indoors. No one's dumping Binchaton into a weber. I mean, if they are, they're freaking banana rams. Well, they're really, they're really expensive too. But ventraton is made by almost a ritualistic process. And the they're almost uniform and thickness. And if you clink them together, they sound like wind chimes. I mean, but they're carbonized perfectly. Yeah, they're pure. They give up very little smoke, a lot of heat. They solve a lot of the problems that I see in American lump charcoal. Yeah, but do you think they're, like, if they were the same price as briquettes, would you still go for briquettes? That's the question. In other words, is it a load of malarkey or not? You know, Ventaton, if it was the same price as Burquettes, I might, because it doesn't have binders and other things in it. And the binders do create more ash. That's the one disadvantage of briquettes. You get more ash out of them. I'm very, it's, I can count on 0 hands the number of times that ash has been a problem during a single cook. It makes it harder to work out after. It's a problem for people with big green eggs. Oh, yeah, I don't... Tell me why I should use it. I'm not big fan. I'm not a big fan either. The core concept that people need to learn when they're grilling
+
+[12:33] outdoors is to set the grill up in 2 zones. A hot side and a nut hot side. And you've got infrared, radiant heat directly below the food on the hot side, and the indirect side or the not hot side is warmed by circulating convection air.
+
+[12:50] And you can move the food back and forth as you need to, and you're controlling heat. You're controlling the type of energy striking the meat. And in a commado that's round, like the big green egg. Yeah, Kamado is the generic name for what the big green egg is for those you don't. It's an old Japanese design, but it's a like an urn, and it's an egg shape, and the charcoal is confined in a small round area. So it's very hard to divide it in 2 heat zones. So it makes a great oven. I mean, good pizza oven. Although, no, the thing, my problem with pizza, it's good for like one or two, but like at the temperatures that I normally cook my pizza, it was very difficult for me to reload it and keep it going.
+
+[13:34] So if you're making a couple pizzas for your family, fantastic for a party that you're running for a couple of
+
+[13:39] hours. No. I mean, it seems to me that the big green egg was only able to sustain an even heat for a long time at lower temperatures. Well, the other thing is, is the egg's been around for about 15 years or
+
+[13:49] more, and it really hasn't changed its design significantly, whereas
+
+[13:54] it's competitors. There's a competitor that's built in Atlanta called Primo. And it's oval shaped. So with the oval shape, you can set up in 2 zones. I like that better. So they need to do some innovation. Yeah, just to get on a table right now, I do almost the exact opposite style of
+
+[14:11] cooking, like, so I come from a kind of low temperature sous vide background. So I do almost entirely, all my stuff is already cooked before I go to
+
+[14:21] the, to a grill and I'm using the grill mainly for finish. So I'm a, I'm high fast in multiple in and outs. So like I do like tan doors too, which is like in out, in out, in out, in out because it acts more like a rotisserie with speed going in and out. Let me tell you about what I call redneck sous vide. Redneck sous vide is when you've got that grill divided in half, a hot side and
+
+[14:42] then not so hot side. I shoot for about 200, 225 on the indirect heat side. It's warming just by convection air. And it's like sous vide. You start a big thick steak on the indirect side and gently warm it, just like you would in a sous vide system. And once it gets up close to finished temperatures. Say you want medium rare steak, 130 to 135. You'll take it up to about 120 on the indirect side. Then you lift the lid, move it over the hot side, right over that pounding infrared energy, and put it just on the
+
+[15:18] underside, and flip frequently, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip so you don't get bars of flavor, grill marks, you get even all over brown, and you've got a great
+
+[15:30] sear. And when it's on the indirect side. It can be picking up smoke flavor, which is an advantage it has over real sous
+
+[15:37] vide. And I've done side by side tasting. I think they're different products anyway. Well, when I've taken identical steaks and done one in speed. I mean, I mean, I think the end result is just, I don't think they should be con- I think they're just different. think they're different. Well, they are. When you do, as I did side by side comparison, the sous vide product is
+
+[15:56] significantly moister and more tender, but the redneck sous vide, if you will, the
+
+[16:02] reverseier technique gets more flavor from the grill and the smoke. Sure. I mean, the issue with, there are a lot of interventions you can do is, it's not about CV. Let's not get into the TV. There are a lot of intervention you can do. So for instance, like, I find most people, when they do sous vide, they only sear on one side or the other, you get much better flavor development when you see her both before and
+
+[16:21] after. And when you put certain things in the bag, a lot depends. A lot of times people will pre-salt with a sous vide and if you pre-salt with a sous vide, the meat ends up tasting cured because of salt penetration to your AI, you get
+
+[16:33] a firming effect. A lot depends on the temperature, what temperature it is when you put it on the grill afterwards after this. There's like so many variables. It's hard to like run. I just think that they're, I think that what we can agree on is that
+
+[16:46] the, the best way to cook any piece of meat like that, especially, is a low average heat input with a very high, uh, instantaneous, uh, either continuously as a rotisserie works where it's like
+
+[17:00] intermittent but like often, which I think is fantastic cooking technique, or by super high energy, uh, at the, at the end. I always think as you do in the book, you agree with me. I think basically wholeheartedly on this that, you know, if you're going to put a seer at the beginning, fine, but it needs to be at the end because otherwise the crust development's not there. Right, right. And the other thing is is if you put pound energy into the surface of meat at the
+
+[17:22] start. Let's take a steak, for example. What happens is, you know, people don't realize it's the hot air doesn't cook all the meat. The hot air only cooks the outside of the meat. Once the outside of the meat starts building and storing energy like a capacitor. It's the outside of the meat that cooks the inside of the meat. So if you start by searing at the beginning on a grill, you're going to pound energy into the surface, you're going to get a great dark
+
+[17:49] surface. And then just below the surface, you're going to get a layer of brown. Then you're going to get a layer of tan, then you're going to get a layer of pink, and then you're finally in the center, you're going to get a half inch or so of perfect medium rare. Whereas if you start slow in either a sous vide machine or reverse here, you can get the color really even top to bottom, color is also related to
+
+[18:12] temperature, and you get perfectly cooked. So most of us backyard weekend warriors, we cook way too hot. You're on it. Cook slow, cook low, cook gentle. Right. You know what's interesting about crust development as well? And this goes back to your flipping thing. Let's just say this. Also, I hate it for different reasons. you know, we call it quadriage marks where they actually do the 2 groups. I detest it. I've always detested it. I just think it's I don't think it even looks good. I think it looks I think it looks horrible. We're Pavlovian trained to salivate when we see grill marks. When I see grill marks, I don't salivate, I see unfulfilled potential. I see a child that had great smarts and never got to college. I see gratan surface. I want to see brown surface. I want to see it dark all over. And when you flip, flip, flip, every minute or two. You can get that all over even tan. Another interesting... sorry. Hey, we got Greg on the line. Oh, hey, Professor Blondary, thanks for calling in. Hey guys, it's been fascinating. Listen to this give and take on sous vide versus redneck. Oh, yeah. We're going to get into it in a minute. Just one more. Well, an interesting thing about, I don't know whether you've done any experiments on, so feel free to chime in at any time, but I work a lot with extreme high intensity,
+
+[19:29] just like kind of push the searing to the fastest possible. What I've noticed is, frankly, that there's a certain minimum time for crust development and that you cannot develop a crust faster than a certain rate because
+
+[19:42] the... absolutely correct. It takes about a minute on your average stake to get across. So if flipping faster than that reduces the quality of the bark and flipping too slow, you're going to get gray. So I like to flip about a minute, minute and a half. And when I cook sous vide, I actually like to pat, even slightly squeeze both sides into a paper towel, so I can pull a little bit of that moisture
+
+[20:05] out, make sure I get a quick sear rather than steaming. I don't know if you do that. Yeah, no, always. Like, so, like, when you went, a lot of time, I'm working and I'm pulling out of a bag and I like to pull out of the bag a little bit in
+
+[20:17] advance. I throw them on towels, typically, and I think you say you're against it somewhere, Pam, for cooking, but I use Pam a lot when I'm grilling to get a quick surface
+
+[20:28] sheen of oil on top of something when I'm going into the tandor. No, I don't think I've mentioned Pam or any kind of boiling it. In fact, I will often oil the meat slightly before the sear phase, but I don't know that makes a huge difference. Greg, you've talked to me about that. What is what are your thoughts about? The only problem with Pam is if you get it hot, it does a good job, but if there's
+
+[20:48] Pam on the sides of the meat, it gets kind of a little bit of a waxy mouth feel, which I don't like. I like with oils. Well, that's the only that's the only reason. Otherwise, if you can actually get it hot, it's fine. But if it's between hot and cool, it gets a little waxy. Yeah, because I find like when I'm going, I know you're anti-skewer. But tandors, it's like sometimes it's the only thing you can do. Like when I'm going in and out of a tandor, like spraying is the only way, and if you're doing a lot of it, even with steaks, it's the only way I can
+
+[21:15] guarantee I'm going to get an even coat of oil on it, really... I'm a big fan of spraying. I usually don't spray pam. I usually spray different cooking oil, but I'm... You can buy spray containers that you can fill with cooking oil. I've clogged and or melted like a bunch of them. I hear there's a trick to getting them to not break on me, but like I haven't figured it out yet. So, uh, you know, you're talking about the mistos? I've gone through so many. No, I've actually had similar problems. I'm glad to hear the only one. You got a solution to those? Yeah. professor, you got anything to not have those things break on me? Yeah, well, I mean, I hate to say this, but I actually use an all metal airbrush. Oh nice. Like, that's a great job and it does, and I completely agree with you. Most of those have plastic parts and if you get them too close to the grill, they're toast. That is so you. But the airbrushes are all metal. At least you could buy the right ones and they're great. All right, so let's get right to some, unless we have caller calling with question. lets get right to some myths. We do have a caller. caller, caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, I just wanted to, I heard you talking about that blueberry drink you were working on a couple of weeks ago. Ooh, do you remember what it was? It was what, blueberry gin, Justino? Um, kind of arc, uh, carbonated drink? Oh, man, yeah, I don't remember. What's the question, though, real quick? I got to get to grilling. I'm just curious if you're using like dried blueberries or fresh blueberries for the drink and if it's just kind of like a typical like carbonated drink. If I made it a couple of weeks ago, I was testing with frozen blueberries because the real ones weren't, I don't have real ones yet. Um, so I was testing with with frozens. And, um, you know, when you're blending a fruit,
+
+[22:58] I think the frozen stuff is fine, really, uh, especially if you go direct from frozen into the liquor. So like certain fruits, you'll get interesting enzymatic action when you freeze
+
+[23:07] thall because you've ruptured a lot of the cells during the freezing process, and the flavor changes quite considerably. Apples would be the one that's very clearly like that. But, um, blueberries. You're not going to get much difference. So you could test with frozen. It's nicer to use fresh ones when they're in when they're in season, but I can't recall the recipe. I've been using shad berries recently because they're in right now. Blueberries will be in soon too. Yeah, you know what's in right now? Go outside. For those of you right now, go outside. Find the closest Linden Tree, a.k.a. Basswood. Linden Blossoms are in now, and you can nitro muddle or blend linden blossom drink. I suggest Linden Blossoms, 2 ounces, Plymouth, half ounce lemon, half ounce, simple, some salt. You won't regret it. Okay, perfect. Thanks so much. All right, thank you. All right. Back to myths on so let's let's tackle some of the oldest and strongest ones that we're going to argue about here, all right? Resting. So for those of you that have the book, it's on, what is it, page 7 here? Let me start, Greg, you can jump in. This is not settled science. And in fact, I've been talking to the people of Texas A&M about hiring a grad student to do some research on this. The general theory is is that when you take meat out of a hot fire. If you let it sit for five, 10, 15 minutes, let it
+
+[24:25] rest, that the juices will be redistributed, and that they will flow more evenly throughout. Um, I'm not sure that they have run away from the fire and been distributed
+
+[24:39] improperly. And I've never seen evidence that they have. Greg did some really interesting tests with this. Greg, why don't you tell them about what you've done and what you've learned. Well, I mean, 1st of all, I mean, in most cases, let's say you're talking about a steak. unless you eat the whole thing in 30 or 40 seconds. It's gonna rest on your plate. So the steak you eat at the beginning is going to be different than the steak you've eaten 5 minutes later versus 15 minutes later. So almost all meats eaten, partly rested. The juiciness difference is nearly zero. I've done tests where I've sliced steaks immediately, gathered up all the juices,
+
+[25:15] waited 15 minutes, then sliced it up. There's no difference. The difference is where it ends up, whether it ends up inside the meat, or it ends up in the plate, and then you kind of sop it up while you're eating.
+
+[25:26] So the total amount of juice is, no difference rested or not rested. I'm a big believer in not resting for a, and actually, even I like to slice my steak pretty early after it comes off the fire because I don't like the crust of sog
+
+[25:40] out and I worry about carryover when you're using a really hot fire. So I'm a fan of taking the meat off, slicing it. I like that charred aroma, and that slightly hard crust, which I'm
+
+[25:54] rude, if you wait too long. So I like to do it. But in terms of total juicy, there's no difference. And the important thing to remember is tenderness and juiciness are not the same thing. And so the liquid that's in there, which comes out, is just as good whether it's in the meter, it's out of the meat. So I'm not a big fan. There's one exception, and that is for things like brisket. And there, there is a huge advantage in waiting an hour after you pull it off the fire, wrap it up, put it into a faux
+
+[26:24] Ambro, and let it sit there. It will absorb the juices, and that has to do with the microstructure of the brisket, and the way it cooks, it actually acts like a bunch of soda straws, and it will pull the juices
+
+[26:34] in. It'll continue to cook. And I do definitely believe you want to rest a big meat, like a brisket, a steak. I'm on the opposite side. I never rest it. Greg, I've been differentiating the two steps by saying meats that you're cooking to medium
+
+[26:49] rare or under 150 degrees. You don't need to rest. You want to serve hot. Not only what you were saying, but I think a big part of the juiciness phenomenon is saliva. And when you put a sizzling hot steak on my plate. I start to salivate. I get juicy. Now, as far as the brisket. I refer to that as holding now, Greg, rather than resting. You're holding it just so people will overcome because a brisket is cooked to 200, 203 degrees. Big difference from 130 degree steak. I think a lot of this, also, you're dealing with a problem of dealing with a problem of terminology. So, you know, the way that I look at it isn't that I've never believed in this redistribution
+
+[27:32] garbage, what I call garbage. What do they mean redistribution? But what is true? And in fact, what Professor, your experiments show in the sidebar, if you read carefully towards the end, is meats tend to, as they're cooling back below, about 54, 52 Celsius, tend
+
+[27:52] to have a radical shift in their water holding capacities. And so what happens is you get reabsorption of juices that are next to meats as they cool down. And as your experiment said, you cut a 33 ounce roast and it bled, I think, 3 ounces when it was cut hot
+
+[28:11] and 2 ounces when it or 2 ounces when it was cut hot and one, which is only one ounce, it is 50%, but it is only one ounce difference.
+
+[28:18] 50%, but when you're dealing with a piece of meat, then is 70% water. Right. But then it reabsorbs it. So I think the key is, and as you said, Professor, on the thing is that it stops up the juices. I've run multiple, might say multiple 100s of tests where you take 2 pieces of meat and you either force chill them through their zone of like
+
+[28:41] absorption. And this is something, by the way, that I thought was hogwash. This was talked to me by a guy named Bruno Gouseau. It was one of the, you know, kind of granddaddies of low temperature sous vide cooking. And he always used to say, you want to ramp your cooling down slowly. When it's in the bag. We're not talking about seared because he does cook, chill, and then retherm later. I always thought cook was the new chill fast. No, no, no, because well, that's the thing. what I always said. faster better, right? From a microbial standpoint. And he always said, no, you want to do a ramped chilling. And the reason is, is that the meat will reabsorb more juices if the ramp goes down slowly. I thought he was full of garbage. And we just ran we ran the test like 100s of times because we used to teach it in our in our low temp sous vide cooking class. And about 70% of the people, about 70% of the time, people will choose the meat that has gone through
+
+[29:28] a ramped cooling. And so then, because that effect was true. I always assume that his argument for it was true, which is that you get, I never actually, I don't think I've measured it, but you get more reabsorption of juices, as it slows down, which is actually corroborated by the
+
+[29:43] sidebar, you guys did in the book, saying that the meat reabsorbs the juices. I don't think the meat needs to be non-sliced for it to reabsorb the juices. It just needs to be in proximity with the juices. That's absolutely correct. And it's, and it depends on the muscle group. Some muscle groups are more like sponges and other muscle groups. There's not much you can do about it and it's not going to absorb a tremendous amount. By the way, I just want to get to that thing about rapid cooling. My belief, 1st of all, there's only so much you can do in terms of rapid cooling and ice baths and stuff. But I do believe that if you can get hot meat into a sous vide bag and seal it, it's
+
+[30:21] gonna, it's gonna sterilize itself, if it's hot when you put it in. And then you have a little bit of margin to play games with how quickly you cool it or not.
+
+[30:32] So I'm not as worried about the microbial issue, if it's in a nice sanitary bag, like a sous vide bag. It's super difficult to suck. you can't suck a good vacuum on hot, obviously. You know what no one's ever made? No one's ever made like a pressure bagger where instead of sucking the air out of the bag, you increase the pressure around it. Well, actually, Greg just did some interesting experiments on that. We've been doing experiments on pressure versus vacuum marinating and whether that works. Oh, I've done a lot of experience on pressure marinating in bottles. I mean, it clearly works at higher pressures. You don't agree? Well, so it's a high, high pressure you're talking about? 60, 70 PSI. Uh, above 100, you're going to begin to see a difference. There's certainly, it's certainly true that in a vacuum
+
+[31:18] marinator. The vacuum marinating, I believe, is absolutely bogus. It does absolutely nothing in terms of driving things in or all those stories about or... Have you spoken have you spoken to the protein scientists on this? Because the professionals I've spoken to on it? I've never really played with it that much because I never cared to. I don't really care about it that much, but the, what they say is that there is a win, and I don't believe, I don't know that I
+
+[31:41] believe this. This is like, you know how there's there's built-up knowledge over time for professionals who do it. They believe that there is a window of vacuum pressure that is
+
+[31:49] good and that a deeper vacuum than that is not advantageous and a shallower vacuum than that is not effective.
+
+[31:56] So as soon as you begin to hear, what you're hearing is a lot of scuffing of feet. Um, trying to find some window where they can prove it works. Most of the studies I've seen in the food literature show that the vacuum marinated is ineffective, as in my own experiments, as is, I believe, the theory.
+
+[32:12] Very high pressures, of course, as you know, high pressure pasteurization is extraordinarily affectatious in terms of what it does to molecules. The in-between levels, the 100 PSIs can make a difference. Your average home pump is not going to get there. Right. And so most of the stuff that, and the most of the stuff that you purchase on the
+
+[32:35] house. So my belief is that the commercial ones that your average home users, it's ineffective, just use a Ziploc bag, you're just as well off. You can make a difference at the high levels. It only goes in so far, given the time. So I think it works best with thin cuts. Also, nothing that helps a big thick cut. Like crustaceans, shrimp can obviously pick up a lot more because of the structure of their muscles. Right. I mean, that's an open circulatory system and you can get there in minutes and with shrimp. I mean, vacuum riding of shrimp is works. Yes. Yeah, but that's a completely different structure. Yeah, and vegetables behave differently also. Oh, yeah. Fish behaved differently. You know, vegetable. You know, the interesting thing about it, because I do, you know, a lot of work with vacuum infusion for garnish work
+
+[33:19] and cocktails and things like this, you know, for years and years. All of them, none of the marination effect happens while you're sucking the vacuum. It's when the pressure comes back in and pushes the liquid into the evacuated pours. Right, and there has to have been pores, which were, in fact, empty. If the pores had liquids in it, nothing pulls out. Yeah, it's important to remember that meat does not have. It's not like Swiss cheese. There are no air pockets in there. It's a fully saturated sponge, if you will. Oh, and to go back to juiciness. I think this is also something that's good that you're hitting on. We're so preposterously obsessed with juiciness and the loss of
+
+[33:56] juiciness. Things just have to be juicy enough for them to be dry agent gets rid of juice, water. That's something that I've pointed out too, in my argument on this business. We dry age and it comes, it'll lose 15, 20% of its juiciness sometimes. But look at, you know, we hear don't poke a thermometer into the meat because it'll... Don't use
+
+[34:20] tongs. Yeah, you use tongs, not a fork to flip. Let's an 8 ounce filet mignon is 6 ounces of water. If you stick a thermometer in there. If you stick a fork in there, you might lose a teaspoon after
+
+[34:35] numerous punctures. There's 6 ounces of water in there. You're not gonna miss it. Plus, the bound water is one part of England. I think the important thing in my mind is mouth feel, and I'm sure, Dave, you've done experiments with putting in monosoding, phosphate, things like that. There is this, uh, for me, there is this window where you don't want pure mild water because it's a little
+
+[34:57] watery on your tongue. You want a little bit of fat. If you put too much water holding gels in, it feels a little bit slimy, but there is a window where it has this
+
+[35:07] wonderful, unctuous, meaty texture in your mouth due to the viscosity of the liquid. And that's what you have to hit. Otherwise you end up with, you know, industrial flavored meats, which tastes like they put gelatin on the inside. Now, we're getting deep down into some technical stuff, but Greg, you used a word there that I wanted to find for the audience because it's an important word. Myo water. You know, when we cut into a steak and these juices that we see come running out. People often call it blood. It's not blood. The blood has all been removed in the slaughtering process. Blood from a steer and a chicken and a hog is much like our blood. It's very dark red. It's almost black. It's thick, and when it comes out into oxygen, it starts to coagulate. Those thin pink juices are called myo water because they're mostly water, and they've gotten a little bit of a pink tinge from a protein called myoglobin.
+
+[36:04] So I want to caution all you people who say, let's collect the blood and pour it over the meat. Every time you call it blood. Somewhere in Indiana, a bell rings and a teenage girl becomes a vegan. Wow, dang. Indiana, that's where they all are? That's where they are. Dax, are you going to become a vegan? Do you like steak? like steak a lot. All right, there we go. How do you like your steak? Really? Red or... I like a medium rare. Medium? I'm talking to him like he's a 12 year old. He is. You know the difference between medium rare. So, oh, well, I only, I, yeah, I mean, I only ever, I do exactly 55.2 degrees all the time. Well, I'm a Fahrenheit guy, but it's 100 and what is that? Well, medium rate is 130 to 135. It's in there. in that range. 135 is 57, so that's... We should also point out something again for people who are not that deep into the things as the 3 of us seem to
+
+[37:00] be. These single most thing that you can do as a home cook, to improve your grilling and your
+
+[37:06] barbecue or your smoking or even your indoor cooking, is go out and buy a $30 digital thermometer that'll give you an accurate reading within 5 seconds.
+
+[37:16] Medium rare steak is 130 to 135. Steak is too expensive to overcook. Stop bringing in the steak and saying, oh, it kind of got away from me there. And more importantly, poultry needs to be cooked to 160, 165 to be safe.
+
+[37:31] And we're not talking about holding it at 155, like you might in a sous vide. Hey, anything you cook longer than a couple of hours, as long as it's a cook temperature. The core, the core is at that technical problem. But we're not we're talking about grilling where we're not sous videing, you want to take it up to 160 at least. And consumer reports did a research project a year ago.
+
+[37:53] in which they found out of 300 chicken breasts, 90% had pathogenic bacteria. Half of them had antibiotic
+
+[38:02] resistant pathogens. You don't want to undercook poultry, you don't want to overcook steak, and a $30 digital thermometer. You want the top of the line, the thermopen for $100, go get it. It'll read in 2 seconds, but you get a good one that'll read in 5 seconds. 30 bucks. Do you bother decontaminating it before? I always wash it? Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Because anything you poke into meat becomes a hypodermic and it can push contaminants deep inside. Yeah, I mean, what I always tell people is like, you know, there's 2 different things. you're dealing with, we have a lot of like pretty hardcore people listeners. So, you know, I make a big distinction between what you're willing to do for your family and then what you're doing if you're serving like, you know, you don't know the people or they're immunocompromised or whatever. There's like big differences. Like a lot of times if I'm going to do stuff that's not safe 100%, then I have to be willing to eat it raw and serve it to my family
+
+[38:52] raw and I don't do it. But also, just a note for all of you sous vide jockeys out there, don't take your incredibly expensive hyperdermic thermocouple anywhere near the grill. They have the potting compound that they use inside of those hypodermic needles is sensitive to heat and will die if it overheats and then your $80 probe is in the
+
+[39:13] garbage. Well, you can still stick it in the meat, though. Yeah, but I've lost more than five. Like trying to, when I'm doing classes and I'm trying to show temperature rise in a stake while I'm flipping it. So if they actually leave it in a grill or God forbid, use it as a frying thermometer, they're gone. Of course, a lot of them have Keflon wire coding, and that only goes up
+
+[39:33] to about 450. I actually, I actually have ceramic bead thermometer, thermocouple, so I can get it up to 750. I did want to get you decontaminated. And Meathead does this, I do this. I sure you do it too. I'll cook medium rare hamburgers, but I grind my own meat and I, in fact, put them in boiling water for 20 seconds before I grind it. And that cuts down all the surface bacteria. And in general, most of the interior meat is pretty close to sterile, so you can get away with that. Unless one stab it, yeah. I don't worry. Again, it should be is been just badly treated in most cases, but you can do the same trick with chicken if you get it from a
+
+[40:13] local... Well, for contamination, we have a thermometer question on the air, but before this really quickly, are you a believer in less bacterial contamination in air
+
+[40:21] chilled birds? Yes. Okay. Wait, we have a caller that wants to ask you guys a question, and I want to miss them. Call or you're on the air. Hey, Dave, I picked up a big green egg over the weekend and I'm really excited to use it. And the question I had actually relates to digital thermometers, so I thought it'd be a good thing to dovetail. Um, I wanted to pick up something that I could use to, um, get the
+
+[40:48] temperature of not just the ambient, uh, heat in the uh, commodo grill, um, but also the, you know, whatever protein I'm cooking. And I was hoping that there might be some device out there that would give me 3 thermocouple
+
+[41:05] sensors, so that I could get ambient heat, like chicken breast and chicken thigh at the same time. And if there's more, you know, great. I can throw on different stuff at the same time. But obviously is, you just pointed out, the heat is an issue when, you know, you've got it up above 500. You can't put silicone in there. So I'm wondering if there's anything that's wireless and can withstand the heat, so I don't have to. A wireless puts another curve on it. If you'll go to amazingribs.com. We have a thermometer buying guide. I have an electrical engineer and we buy the thermometers, don't take samples. We put them through equipment to test their accuracy, their speed of response, check them against the manufacturer's specs, but there are probes that you can buy that are
+
+[41:55] plug into a meter. So you can buy 20 probes, put one on a different part of the grill
+
+[42:02] grate, put 2 in the meat, hang one through the ducks, wherever you want to put them. And then all you need is a single meter with a connector on it. Now, some of the meters have one connector, multiple connectors, but you can move the meter from probe to
+
+[42:18] probe and measure as many different measurements as you want. If you want something off the shelf that's remote read, I'm not happy at all with any of the Bluetooth devices we've tested. Bluetooth is a pain in the butt. It's really hard to pair sometimes. There are some nice units. Maybe they'll solve the connectivity issues. But my favorite is made by a company called Maverick, and they have several models. The one I like the best is not the newest model. It's called the Maverick ET 732, and it's radio frequency, not Bluetooth. And I can walk several blocks away
+
+[42:55] from, well, not that far. But a block away from the house and still get a good reading on. It's got 2 probes, so you can use both in the meat or one in the meat on the other on the grill surface. But that's another point that we should point out. We talk about measuring meat temperature. You don't want to use the thermometer that comes on a grill. It's usually mounted in the dome, which is handy if you're going to eat the dome. But if you're going to eat the meat, you need a probe down on the surface where the meat is. So you need to get a digital thermometer with a probe. This maverick ET 732 costs about 50 bucks. Let me say 2 other things about thermocouples. Most of the ones you purchased, the metal stainless steel probe is grounded to one of the leads. If you put more than 2 of them into the same piece of meat, you can get what's called a ground loop and get very unreliable measurements. You need special thermocouples, if you want to put more than one into a piece of meat going to the same meter. So if you notice weird numbers, it's often because of that. That's a good part. I forgot about that. And I actually, and I've purchased what are called floating
+
+[43:59] sheaf thermocouples that you don't have that problem, but unfortunately most manufacturers don't do it. That's an interesting. Yep, I think about that. I said, I hadn't even thought about that. It's interesting. Yeah, it becomes a problem when you have meat, which has been salted, because then it's a good electrical conductor. You can actually get an electrical ground loop between one piece of meat down into the stainless steel grill over to the other piece of meat into the
+
+[44:23] thermocouple. You can actually watch that happen. So I use the right kind of thermocouple. This is not a common occurrence, though. I mean, this is... It'd be surprised. I've tested it in a bunch of commercial ones. But the other thing is thermometer would suffer from that problem. That's about the probe, not about the thermometer. Yeah, it's the probe. The other the other thing you might want to consider doing, which is a trick I use is I get these cotton braided
+
+[44:50] laces, like you might put in your shoes, thick ones. I soak them with water. I put them over the Teflon part of the thermocouple probe, and then I wrap it with aluminum foil. And that'll allow you to use a thermocouple on top of a really hot
+
+[45:05] grill and not destroy it immediately. Yeah, I use mainly the fiberglass and silica ones, but they fray after a while. They fry after a while. The water helps, keep the temperature low. You still have a weak point where the epoxy goes from the wire into the thermocouple, but if you don't do that, you might get
+
+[45:23] one or 2 grills out of them if you're not careful. Now, caller, if you really want to go geeky, I don't know why you would for this, but if you really want to go geeky and you have some money, the cheapest, like super multi-one that I know of, an outfit I've, I think Massachusetts, maybe
+
+[45:35] Maine called measurement computing, sells an 8 channel DAC that has thermocouple inputs that are
+
+[45:42] pre-calibrated. And years ago when I bought, and they sell you, they give you a program and it's, uh, you could do, at the
+
+[45:49] time it was 200 bucks with 8 channels of input and then you just buy yourself a spool of wire and make, make some thermocouples and you go to town.
+
+[45:56] I used to use it to measure like 8 things at once and I'm not telling you to steal a copy of LabView online, but they have a thing called, forget what
+
+[46:05] they're one, they're one that they come with works fine too, but it's super nerdy. There's like, I can think of like 5 or 6 people that would care to even have 8 readings at once,
+
+[46:12] but. Well, I'm willing to be as geeky as it takes to be as lazy as I want to be. I don't think it's going to help you in that grill, though. Like, you know what I'm saying? Have you guys ever used Flur? That grill holds temperature really well. I mean, it's very efficient. And in fact, it's almost too efficient. It's very hard to get what we want what we call blue smoke out of a big green egg, which is the best tasting smoke. Very efficient. So once you get the hang of it. Do some dry runs. Fire it up and don't put food in there and waste food. Fire it up and cook without food and get your measurements down so that you can control temp. Yeah, the only reason I need burping? What? Oh, yeah, burping. Yeah, tell them, Greg. Well, one of the problems with the green eggs is they are so efficient. They're running a little oxygen starved, and sometimes when you open it up to see what's going on. The oxygen rushes in, the coals catch fire and you get kind of a hair removing burst of flames come out of the thing. So the right thing to do is you open it a little crack. You let the air in, let it burst, burp, and then you open the lid all the way. And back on multiple readings, It's very rare that you need that many readings. The only time I can think of that you would need it is if you were building a brand new bread oven and you were embedding thermocouples into the masonry at various
+
+[47:30] depths so you could tell what's going to happen. In an egg, you could just move the thermocouples around and see what the temperature distribution's like. Yeah, and we've gotten way geeky here. I mean, like that's what my crew my crew is like that though. Is it really on a gas grill, for example, you go out and you buy a loaf of white
+
+[47:45] bread and you spread the bread slices all over the surface of the grill, and you turn on the grill, close the lid, and then you lift it in a few
+
+[47:53] minutes and look in and see which bread pieces are burning black, and which are not closed. And now you know where your hotspots are. Have you guys ever, when you're cooking, use these new cheap fluorothermal imaging cameras found a good use for them? Yeah, I've used those. I bought one for experiments with microwave cooking, which are kind of cool on my website, which you
+
+[48:11] that, look at the fact that if you put a, say, a slim gym in a microwave, It acts like an antenna and it actually gets hot in sections with nodes in between. That's so awesome. You know, if you had taught me that when I was in college. I used to blow up light bulbs, you know, make plasma and grapes, but I never thought to put a slonge in there. the link. really kind of cool. You can actually see circulating currents in, say, a slice of salami where the center is cooler than the edges. All right, you know what you should do? You're going to have fun with this. If you want to like do like super plasma stuff with weird, you ever tried partially evacuating the inside of a microwave? Mhm. Yes, you're heading into light bulbs if you're clever. It's crazy. I, I, there's a, you think people used to do a microwave dehydration because the theory was by increasing the evaporation rate, uh, you could
+
+[49:00] have uh, fruits keep their shape basically as they're evaporating in a microwave under partial evacuation.
+
+[49:05] So I tried it a bunch of times and I would always get huge plasma balls all over the inside of the microwave.
+
+[49:10] I also did some work microwaving inside through ice ice, which is very cool. Yeah, well, this microwave transparent, so you can microwave inside an ice cube, which is kind of cool. Right, that is cool. So, you know, Nicholas Kurtty, the physicist. That was his like, his killer app was his baked up microwave baked Alaska. All right, let's get back to grilling though. Florida. Big Florida, though. Big Florida. Nice. All right. So let's talk about, let's see, I'm trying to look at the myths that I want to get to. Oh, go back to myoglobin for a minute. You know, one of the things that people get and you have it in 2 separate places in the book
+
+[49:42] is, one is, I forget the 1st one. The 2nd one is color is not an indication of of Dennis. And you know, and your specific one was chicken. The problem is, people just won't eat things that are that color. How do we... They won't eat chicken. We're getting better at eating pink pork. The government gave us the okay. They lowered the forbidden temperature from 165 to
+
+[50:05] 145. And if you want to cook pork down a 140 or 135, you're in for a real treat. You're getting a steak-like experience of tenderness and juiciness that you've never had in pork before, and a few restaurants are doing that. And you're dealing with a whole muscle meat, just like you are with a steak. You're going to be pretty safe. Um, but uh, chicken, we just have a mental block. My wife is a FDA food safety scientist. She's pretty smart, pretty high ranking government expert. And I can bring in chicken from the grill that I've temped, and I know is safe. 165, 170. And we cut into it and the juices run pink. And she'll look at it. She'll look at that bloody spot along the side of the thigh and she'll get up and put it in the microwave. Now, you know, I can't fix I can't fix the color near the bone, because you have this huge source of myoglobin sitting there in the marrow, but the surface, and a lot of people reject it on the surface, is if you put it in an acidic marinade, the acid will reduce the temperature that myoglobin changes color.
+
+[51:10] Right. So, one of the tricks is to use in buttermilk, for example, and other things will dramatically help near the surface.
+
+[51:17] So for boneless meat, for people who are queasy about this, I recommend something that's acidic to help make it less
+
+[51:24] pink. The key here is, and Greg, you can elaborate, is that myoglobin changes color when it heats up. So it starts out pink, and that's the pink juices. So when you cook a steak, the juices run pink because you're only cooking it to 13135. And the meat stays pink. But when you cook the meat to 140, 150, it starts getting gray or
+
+[51:47] brown. The myoglobin changes color. Same thing in chicken. Now we're cooking chicken up to 16165, but something about the acidity of the meat prevents the myoglobin from changing colors like it used to. You know, nowadays, we grow chicken from 0, from egg to 3.5 pounds in 7 weeks. It goes from egg to store shelf in 7 weeks. Used to be these birds would wander around and it would take months for them to grow. The bones would calcify much more effectively. Now the chicken bones have very thin calcium on them. And so you can see the marrow through the bone. The, the, the, the, blood in the, or in myer globe and in the marrow will leak out and you can, in the picture, there's a picture in the book of really
+
+[52:32] purple, bone juice, and the juices will stay pink. They don't get hot enough. And this is a good point for Greg to point out. how the smoke ring works because Greg did definitive research on this. Well, I got 2 minutes. And I got to get some, yeah, go, go, go. No, no, I mean, chicken can be pink for 2 reasons. One is because the myoglobin didn't denature and it didn't turn brown, but the other reason is nitric oxide and carbon monoxide from a smoker gets in there and fixes the myoglobin just like
+
+[53:02] he fixs a photograph. And so that can be another reason why smoke meets are pink. And below the Mason Dixon line, people look at that and say, oh, good, you smoked it. And above the Mason Dix line, they return it, which drives the restaurant crazy. In both cases, the acidity will help you open a window where you can serve
+
+[53:21] meat, which is in tank, but is safe to eat. Another interesting thing about myoglobin that, you know, I've read in the research, but also been
+
+[53:29] borne out by my experience is it's not a simple temperature. It's not a light switch. It's also rate dependent. So if you're doing low and slow, you're going to have a different kind of interaction between finished temperature. And also, as you know, you can have pink stew meat. And again, that's a low and slow cook. It's also often in a situation where the oxygen can't get
+
+[53:49] out, so the oxygen continues to refresh and keep the myoglobe in pink. And so it depends upon the thickness of the meat, how quickly you're doing the cooking in a variety of other factors. The mildlobin breaks down for more than one reason. And some of those enzymes and so on, if you cook low and slow, they're more fragile than the myoglobin.
+
+[54:10] So the thing that attacks the myoglobin dies away before it has a chance to work on the myoglobin.
+
+[54:17] And so it is very much a rate dependent thing, is very much dependent upon whether the oxygen can get out or not, which is,
+
+[54:24] and for example, in marrow, It's a little bit like a balloon. The oxygen doesn't leave as easily. The meat, the marrow tends to stay pink longer, for that reason. So it's a very complicated. I mean, I like it because those are knobs you can turn to adjust the final result, but it is very complicated. So they're going to kick us off the air here, but so before we do, I'm going to, I can say a couple things on the way out. By the way, June, who rode in about the upside down cake, please tell me exactly the problem you're having so I can solve
+
+[54:50] it because I can't tell whether you're talking about the fruit is sticking to your pan or whether the texture of the cake is what's wrong.
+
+[54:55] So write in, tell me, I'll get to the rest of the questions later. Professor, plug your website please. It's a genuine ideas.com and there's a button that says food and all the articles are there under the food button. And if you have not already gone there from this show, you must go there right now. Don't eat lunch first. Go there, go there right now. And meet head at your website. Amazingribs.com and the book is Meathead by Meathead Goldwin and Professor Greg Blonder. You should go out and you should purchase that instantaneously. On the way out, let me just say 2 things. One bone I have to pick with you. I don't leave the fat cap on because of protecting the meat. It's because the crunchy fat is delicious. It's delicious. And you're not going to give me a chance to rebut. I will, and what, you have the 20 seconds. I give you the other one, too. I have a bone to pick with both of you guys on the on the 225 versus 3, uh, whatever, 325 because I think it's accurate. However, higher temperatures than 325, I think, will reverse their trend on the 325 because you're dealing with evaporative cooling a lot on the
+
+[55:54] 225, keeping the meat temperature down. But Dave, if you ever guys ever come on again, will have that argument. I didn't even say what my argument is to people, so it's not a real problem. I didn't even hear that argument. No, I mean, like, well, we can get into it. I think there's a bunch of things in the book. You should see, everyone should read the book. And then we'd, read the book. We'll have them call in again. We'll talk about 225 versus 325, which I think is accurate as it's in the book. It's accurate. My only gripe is that if you were to go much higher, I think that the trend would not stay the same way. It wouldn't, it's not linear. I think you picked 2 special temperatures. Well, I picked them, not Greg. Yeah. And I picked them because I like the 325 renders fat a little better in chicken. All right, so listen, go see their stuff. Thanks so much, folks, guys, for being on cooking issues. Dax, also, you want to say goodbye? Nastas, you said nothing. Say something. Hi. Cooking issues. Bye.
+
+[56:52] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[57:21] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Physical Culture Collective. For more information, visit their website at physicalculturecollective.com.
+
+[0:08] Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:25] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly
+
+[0:34] 12, roughly 1245, 1250, sometimes one. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Not with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez today, unfortunately. She cannot be here. She is doing, she is taking Anastasia Day. So in the place of Nastasia, the place of Nastasia Lopez will be taken by our good friend Paul Adams, the head of all web empires for popular science.
+
+[0:59] How you doing, Paul? I'm good The sidekick chair is so comfortable. Oh, not yeah, more than mine. Yeah, yeah. Well, you, uh, so Paul, uh, you might know him from his Twitter uh, handle at Popsi Eats, correct? Is that your Twitter game? That's correct. Do you not use the other one's your email, so I won't give that one out. So people won't send you random emails. So calling all of your popular science related or other or food or whatever or 4th of July related questions. 2 718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128 and with more enunciation, 718-4972128. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. What was that number again, Dave? I can't remember. can't remember what that number is. Um, yeah. So anyway, we got a boatload of questions because we missed last week. I forget what was going on last week. Oh, yes, Dax was graduating from elementary school. He won a he won a leadership award. Do you know what's do you know what's garbage, Paul? What? When I was a kid? So presumably, you know, when you had the awards at the end of school, it was that one freaking kid that won everything.
+
+[2:04] They had all those freaking medals around their neck and they were like weighed down with like the weight of medals and just showing you how crushingly superior they were at charming the school administration than you
+
+[2:15] were and or at taking tests or maybe they did their homework. You know what I'm saying? Those kids are now our leaders. Yeah, I don't know, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Anyway, the point being that they don't do that anymore. And the New York City public schools, they sift the awards out so that no one child earns all the awards.
+
+[2:35] So is that person who got the science award really the best at
+
+[2:39] science? Or is it just that the person that got the English award they decided to give her the English award instead of the science award? You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? You put it this way. So is Dax actually a leader? No, he really is leader because 1st of all, like they also give like multiple, like when I was a kid, one kid got the citizenship award. Guess who it wasn't? Dave? Yeah, did you win that award, Paul? The citizenship Award? I don't think we had that. No? David in the booth? Did you have a citizenship Award growing up? I don't know what that means. Did you have any awards in your elementary school or any of this crap? I don't think so. no. We didn't have a graduation ceremony. Are you from a hippie commune? Where are you from? No, but this was before like everybody had to be exceptional or whatever. Dude, dude, I was born in 1971, dude. before what? My point is, is it's not about being exceptional. Awards. This is why you should give them all to one kid. Awards are about punishing the people who don't get awards. They're not about awarding the people who get the awards. It's about saying, why are you so worthless? That what it's all about. And so like nowadays, I think you're right. Like they're trying to make every, so like, you know, they're spreading it all out. And I think it was probably good for me to realize that somehow I wasn't kind of working within their
+
+[3:48] system. You know, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, you're still not really an exemplary citizen. I'm a great citizen. I help people cook things. You're a great citizen, but not award-winning. Nah, no. Well, huh, huh? Huh? The book? The book, the book is a better citizen than you are. Yeah, the book is a much better citizen I am. Anyway, point being, he won a leadership award, which is he deserved, and he was the only kid that won. like the citizenship where there was like 5 kids. But let me put it to you this way. The valedictorian, which is his, you know, one of his dirtbag buddies is the valedictorian of the school. And the only award she won was valedictorian. Does that make any sense? That you would be the valedictorian school, but you don't happen to mop up one of the math or science or English or social study of the
+
+[4:31] awards? Does that make any freaking sense? Like the Oscars where you win like 12 Oscars? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. But at least... I don't know. It just seems to me that you should just let the one kid have all the awards, and that's it. Right? Well, in your school. What? In your school, that's how you can do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It won't even be the best kid. I just randomly assign all the awards to one child. That's the really baller way to do it. Just randomly assign all the awards to one child. Chat room saying don't be part of the system. Yeah. No, but like, don't you think, do they think that random assignment is the way to go? Just randomly assign the awards out? It's more, like I say, it's about punishing people, not about rewarding people. Uh, at least that's the way it felt, right? So we have a lot of questions because, uh, 2 weeks ago, uh, we had, um,
+
+[5:17] Meathead on, do you have his book? Yeah, I have 3 copies of his book. Yeah? Do you have them in 3 different locations? Are they all the same? Okay, did you have those 3 separate locations on 3 different heat levels? Do you have like one of the books over direct flame and one over the indirect flame to
+
+[5:33] see like, yeah. No, I have the advance review copy, the regular review copy, and then...
+
+[5:38] How much change is there between these? I have multiple copies of your book too. Yeah, do you have the advance? you're an editor. There's a lot of changes actually between the advanced. There was a lot of, I mean, even in the finished one. There was a couple of errors that I hope to God they fixed. Yes, yeah, which you caught from me actually, right? Yeah, nice. See, this is why people, if you write books, give them to people to read ahead of
+
+[5:59] time. because once you've like written something and read it 8000000000 times, you can't stand to look at it anymore for a while.
+
+[6:06] You need to put it down. And so you can't catch that somebody has like mislabeled all the fractions or something like this. And it's more difficult than you think. It's not just a matter of the spell check, although that does help. Editors are important. Editors are extremely important. They're extremely important. So listen, let's get to some questions. And then later, Paul, a long time ago, Paul got in
+
+[6:27] the in his popular science, you know, mail bucket, one of these new Breville, what do they call
+
+[6:34] it again? They call it control freak. The control freak, which is, you know, an induction hob that, okay, I'll give you the quick story now. going to talk about it later on in the program. But the quick story is is that Breville, I don't know how much of this is. I sure it's public. public knowledge, right? Breville bought, they, I don't know whether it was a controlling steak or a big steak or the entire, uh, culinary business from, um,
+
+[6:55] polycience. They bought like the culinary wing. I think a good portion of it. I don't know whether it was all of their circulator line or just some of it, but they bought it. Okay. So, um, then they were going to come out with this new induction, uh, hob. I hate that word hob. Yeah, Hob isn't that good. What do you use? I say cooktop? Cooktop? There's not a good word. At least when you say cooktop, people who've never heard the word before can sort of piece together what it might mean. Yeah, seriously, like, if I just walked up to these people who are eating their lunch over here and I was like, hey, would you like an induction hob, they'd be like,
+
+[7:29] hob, hob? Is that something British? Is that British thing? It sounds Anglo-Saxon. Yeah, it doesn't, it sounds like something that a Brit would say that an America would never say. induction, but burner is not right. Induction is close. Anyway, let me think about it. Anyway, induction thing, I'm a jig it. And the idea of this induction thing of a jig it is that it's a much more
+
+[7:53] accurate and has more control and more whiz bangery than other induction thingamajigits. And we'll talk about it later, but the interesting thing about it, about it. The interesting thing about it is they teamed up with Philip Preston, who is the guy, you know, who owns
+
+[8:07] polycience, the guy who brought circulators to chefs originally, the, you know, the one. You know what I mean? Who was, and he actually just came out with a, some sort of,
+
+[8:17] I, if you look on the, on the Twitter. someone will look at it for me. He just came out with a new kind of SUV documentary that he put out in a book or something like this. But anyway, they teamed up with him on some of the control algorithms for the unit. So it's also co-branded polyscience. Yes, it is. It was a long way to say that it's Brevel co-branded polyscience. Did I mention that I've recently, did I tell you this, Paul? I have no idea why, but recently, I have become like most favored nation status for Breville. So they sent me a bunch of things to test as well. So I've tested the unit myself. Fantastic. Anyone that wants to make me most favored nation status for testing equipment. I will love you forever and my wife will hate you forever. So it's kind of a, you know, but she's not in the food business. So if you're in the food business, you know, probably better to have her hate you and me not hate. I don't know. Or maybe the other way around. I don't know. But anyway, we could talk about it, we could talk about it later in the show. Also, I have a request. Paul, do you know of a good mead? A good mead. Yeah, no. Me neither. Here's the thing. I want a good meat. There has to be a good mead. I have had bad me, but not in many years. The meads that I've had are I also read a lot about, you know, making meads and they tend to get stuck because, um, I guess people don't put enough nutrients in, uh, and I think also people are trying to ferment it out to too high a, uh, too high an alcohol level. So they're shooting for like 20% or something like this. I've never had a dry mead really. Yes, what I want to try is a dry mead that clocks in
+
+[9:45] at, like, you know, like 8 to 10% alcohol. That's what I want to try. I want to try like an eight, somewhere between 8 and 13% alcohol, dry meat. Heres the other problem with meat. People have, you know, written, oh, you know, honey is very acidic. It has a pH of 3 point high 3s somewhere, right? It's like, people, there's not that much water in honey. So like when you dilute it down. I guarantee that they, that they, whatever you're going to call it, mead must, whatever you're going to call
+
+[10:14] it when you delete it down, is not in the, in the, in the 3s somewhere. You know what I mean? Meat is simply, unless you, unless it's infected with some bacteria that's going to
+
+[10:24] create, uh, a sourness, like you would get in a, um, a sour beer, like some sort of lactic acid bacteria or something like this.
+
+[10:31] Oh, now I have, oh, my God, I have, you know, you know, the bacteria lucana stock,
+
+[10:37] meseranteroid, so however you pronounce it. Whenever I say lactic acid bacteria, and the word luconostock goes through my head. I've said this before, I have, the song, Lukenbach, Texas, goes through my head, but it's Lucana stock, Texas. And it just keeps looping through my head. And I'm hearing with Willie and Whalen and the boy, it's over and over and over. Thank God you're the only person that happens to it. Maybe someone else out there feels mean like, yeah, no, give me a 2nd to get the song out of my head. Wait, wait. Okay. So it's not like sour, right? So it doesn't have enough acidity to back it up, right? It's not going to be a problem. They say it drinks like a white wine, but a white wine has like a lot of acidity, you know? This is why I'm doing these experiments now with fermented orange juice, and I'm hoping to
+
+[11:20] try because the fermented orange juice has a, like the orange juice itself has a fairly good acidity for something like
+
+[11:27] a, a wine. You know what I mean? Might be a little high. I had to test it. I bought a titradable acidity kit so I could actually test it and see what's going on when it's done to see where it hits and all this stuff. But like I want to mess around with that. And also people tend not to make, when they make fruited meads, they're shooting on the sweeter side. They're not adding enough to make it really acidic. Anyway, I'm working on these problems, but what I want to taste is a good commercial need, a good, preferably dry, a little residual sugar is okay, but preferably dry because I want to see what it tastes
+
+[11:55] like. Mead. So someone can say, hey, this, this is what it means should taste like. suspect that is out there. There's a meter in New Jersey that was on the network not too long ago. Yeah, well, why don't they sell their freaking product in New York City? I called Astor. I call warehouse. I call Garnett. I called Discovery One. I call all of these like little shops here in New York. I called... like, do you have meat? They're like, meat, meat? I'm like, no, Mead, Mead, Mead. And they're like, no. Except for Astro has a couple, but they're sweet meats. I don't want a sweet mead. I don't want something that is like something that just crunk up kids that can't take the alcohol. You know what I'm saying? Right. Tell me if I'm wrong. Just someone tell me a place in New York City where I can walk into a store and buy delicious mead.
+
+[12:42] That's all I wanna know. Did these guys bring meat onto the radio when they came? They did, it was delicious. Thanks, buddy. It was dry. It was crisp. Thanks. Who was it? Noah's voice metery. Noah's Vice. They talking about Noah getting naked and his kid's covering him up after the flood? Yeah, it was like a biblical reference. No, his voice was meat, I guess. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, although I thought it was grape juice. I thought very specifically it was grape juice, wasn't it? Grape juice? I don't know, I didn't go to Bible. someone Bible me up. Anyway, but the point being that, uh, do we have any around that we can crack open? I'll give them props. Are they going to, can they send us some? Can we taste it? Can someone get me this? Yeah, please. The other thing is, um, I want to taste real maple sap beer as well. And there's a place called Lawson's, I think, called Lawson's Peerless, but it's like you can't get it. It's like the Pappy Van Winkle of fermented beverages. You can find it in Montreal. What, maple beer? Yeah. Solely maple beer. I don't want some sort of like, hey, I made a regular beer and I put a little maple syrup in called a maple beer. I want fermented maple. It has to be reduced 1st because maple sap is, you're supposed to use end of run maple sap. not good for making sugar. It's going to be too metallic. You ever had end of run maple syrup. The stuff that's beyond B grade. Yeah, sea grade. Yeah, it's hardcore, like metallic, like... I thought I was going to love it because I love bee so much. And then I was like, I talk to this maple supplier. He like, yo, I'm not allowed to sell that, man. It's like not like, it's like doesn't fit the U.S. standards for what is maple syrup. I'm like, brother, I don't care. Can I buy it? And he's like, I can't really. Can I buy it? And so he brought a cord in for me to try. And I was like, you know, man, you're right. I don't like this stuff. I don't, I love B. Do you like to see? No, I don't like the sea. No. But the C is what you want for maple beer. Well, no. I don't want to take it all the way down to, uh, you don't want to take it all the way down to syrup. So I think they take it about halfway lesson. They'd have to take less than halfway, right? So they're doing roughly a 41. They're doing a roughly 40 to one. That depends on what you want the bricks to be, right? But if so, then if you did it like a quarter of as much, you'd be at, I'd have to do the calculations. But like somewhere like uh, a 3rd of the way, somewhere between a 3rd and a half of the way there, right? Uh, to probably, if I was going to guess, I'd say they take it to probably like 15 bricks or something like this. And I think if you're boiling it only to that level, you don't lose. They call it niter, which is like the weird, like, stuff that scum that forms on the maple thing as you're boiling it down, that they skim off, that it probably has some sort of protein and nutrients and other stuff that helps the yeast get
+
+[15:17] going. But then you're supposed to ferment it that way rather than just buying syrup and watering it down, although apparently you can do that too. Right. But that's what I want. That's what I want to try. And it's using a product and of run maple sap that is otherwise relatively useless. I have consumed a bottle of that in Montreal. How was it? It was interesting. Interesting means you hate it. Why do you hate it? Did they hop it? First of all, like, did they hop it? And if they hopped it, why did they hop? Everyone got a hop. They did not hop it. It was sort of... flat tasting. It didn't have a lot of nuance, as I recall. Do you think it's because they chose a poor yeast? I don't have a lot of other maple beers to compare it to. Hard to say. Anyway, if any of you guys out there have a good source for a maple sap beer that you think is both delicious and that we can actually get a bottle of, we hear
+
+[16:12] the cooking issues would appreciate it. Yeah? All right. 2 bottles? 2 bottles. At least two. At least two. Here we got a caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, how's it going? Anto from Boca. Hey, how you doing? Good yourself. doing well, doing well. Cool, man. So I had a question here about celery juice. Okay. I've been making a cordial at my bar with like a 40%
+
+[16:35] sugar and uh, for some reason it keeps jellifying like within either a matter of hours or a few days.
+
+[16:42] In addition to that I'm also trying to clarify it. I hit it up with some pectinase, and for whatever reason, it's not stripping at all, and I put, like, in a separatory funnel or not. Hold up. Just give me the exact procedure. You're taking the celery, and then what are you doing to it? Juicing it, straining it, hitting up some type of days,
+
+[17:01] uh, like a .2% solution or whatever it is, the 2 grams per liter. Um, and then nothing separating at all. I wonder whether it's the strands don't get broken up by the pectination. It's somehow being stabilized by what's in the strand. I, you know, uh, uh, you're using the
+
+[17:21] Pectnex Ultra SPL. Okay. So Pectinax Ultra SPL wipes out, or can wipe out a lot, lots of
+
+[17:30] pectins, also does hemicellulose. I haven't looked at the composition of celery,
+
+[17:37] but in other words, I don't know if it contains like lots of actual cellulose, which I don't think it will break down. It seems like it would. Maybe, in which case, you might be making yourself some, like, you might be, it might be stabilizing itself with, like, you know,
+
+[17:50] microcrystallin, well, it wouldn't be microcrystallin, but you might be stable. It might be stabilizing itself. I'm talking right out of my butt here because I have no idea, but I'm just trying to guess why it wouldn't, why it wouldn't stabilize. hear what I recommend. You want to do it entirely cold because you want it, or no, you're making it cordial. You heating it? No, I'm not heating it. The flavor of celery infuses fantastically well. I recommend you just, uh, uh, do a very, uh, fine slivers of celery, boil and strain. You're going to get a lot of celery flavor out of it in color, and you're not going to cloud it out. Wait, I understand. How is it you're recommending during this? Well, like, when I do gins and stuff, when I'm doing like, or when I used to do a lot of seller agents, I would just, I would just cut it extremely fine. Like, you know, cross fiber, because remember, it's got a lot of fibers, but it's actually very porous along the length of the celery.
+
+[18:45] So as long as you like, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check. You'll be able to get just by heating it in the syrup that way and then straining the solids out, you'll be able to get a very strong celery
+
+[18:56] flavor. without a lot of the clouding effects because you're not busting up all of that stuff that would otherwise cause
+
+[19:03] problems, but you're extracting a lot of the flavor. Like you might, it will probably stay almost entirely clear from the get go. Okay. But you got to remember when you cook celery a long time. I mean, cooked celery obviously has a different flavor. So remember, if you're doing a celery cordial also, if you're trying to emulate something like Dr. Brown's celery soda, Dr. Brown's celery soda, which, in my humble opinion, is one of the greatest soda
+
+[19:27] flavors, all times, all times. Fantastic. Fantastic all times. Celery seed, celery seed, is actually a celery seed soda. So if you want to emulate some of that, I also recommend throwing a little bit of celery seed into that. I just, you know, I just made, I haven't been on the show since that. I just made candied celery, which is also delicious. You should try that. And the candy, the candy celery, I did the, the, um, the gradual replacement method where you, you blanch it first, then you peel off the strings, then you put it into a one-to-one simple, bring it up to the boil, let it sit for a day or two, take it, bring it up to the boil, boil it down a little bit, add it back in for a little bit of the
+
+[20:03] boil, and just do that again and again until you get it down to where, you know, when it cools, it'll get stiff.
+
+[20:09] And then you throw it, throw some extra sugar on the outside of it, put it in the D high until it kind of, like, gets stiff. Man, is that stuff. Oh, the texture like? The texture is like candied. It, the texture that I took it to is is like a, not as firm as a, as an apricot, but firmer than an Australian
+
+[20:28] glacier apricot. A little bit a little bit less firm than candied pineapple. No crunch left. No crunch. I've also taken the strings out, so no strings. And also, this is my secret trick. Are you ready for the secret trick? and I would do this with your celery cordial as well if it wasn't going to be acidified. I added a pinch of to the last boil. I added a pinch of malic acid. Right. Brighten it a little bit. Yeah, you know, that's what they did. We were talking on Twitter a couple of weeks ago about, is there a genetic predisposition to like or dislike celery?
+
+[21:01] And someone from Monel chimed in saying that Andostronone, Androstonone, is flavor that's present in celery and also in boar saliva. I like I like me some bor saliva. good, yeah. So what kind of people like bor saliva and celery? The same people? The same people. If you don't like boris saliva, you might not like celery. Look, I think we've had this discussion on the cooking issues before, but you know how there is a genet, there's a genetic, look, there's a genetic component clearly to certain things like cilantro, right?
+
+[21:32] Like, right? But it does, it's not a genetic thing determining whether you're going to like it or not. It's a genetic marker showing that you're going to perceive it in a certain way. There are plenty of people in Mexico who have the gene to have it taste
+
+[21:45] soapy to them and they still love it because they were raised to like it. Yeah, we got on the trail of this because there were a lot of people complaining online that celery is totally watery and
+
+[21:54] tasteless. They are completely wrong. They are completely and utterly like that is wrong. Are these the same fools that say that bay leaves don't have flavor? Possibly. Fools. Fools. I was just going to add in for you as well. Don't know if you've ever tried the going back to your meat question. There is also, have you ever tried the zombie killer? No. B nectar? The hopped meat? Good. So it's a little bit drier. Is it good? That one's good. I recommend that one. It's within that 10% that you were looking for. Can you get it in a store? Can you just go buy it or do you have to get it shipped to you? Uh, I mean, I can buy it down here in Florida so I don't know how available it would be there. Yeah, I'll look around for it. The other problem is here in New York. we have the issues where no one knows where me. So I don't think meat can be sold in beer stores here. And so like, uh, because they don't add any malt to it, or there's another, and it's not cider, it doesn't fall in any normal category. So I think it's in a wine category and the wine stores don't want to sell it because they can't push it and the beer stores can't sell it. And so everybody gets hosed. But so maybe it's maybe it's easier outside of New York, you know, someplace that has different laws. Maybe somebody needs to open a meat store. They allow it to be considered a beer, perhaps. Maybe, or you know what else? like there's a there's a certain minimal malt content that you need to add to things to have them be a malt beverage to the same
+
+[23:19] malt beverage on the Well, next time you look at it, see whether it says malt beverage somewhere on the bottle. It's a not a lot. You don't need a lot of malt. So like some of these guys doing the maple stuff, dope it back with some malt too, so it can be a malt beverage, so it's easier for them legally. It's just another one of these things where the legal stuff gets you into really ridiculous trouble. Like, we should just have our taxes based on, like, the fact that it is alcohol and what content alcohol is, not like whether or not it was made from barley or made from whatever.
+
+[23:45] Our laws are so arcane and strange. You know? Anyway, Dave thinks once again. always helping him with solutions, man. All right, thanks. Well, let us know how it works, all right? Yeah, thank you. All right. So let me see. John Reiper wrote in, longtime listener. Props to you guys for the great series of guests you've had on recently. Thank you. Does that include Paul? you. Yeah. Are there any rules of thumb for the shelf life of various hydrocoloids? Less than, by the way, I hate that word. Less a thin. Do you? Less of thin. Why? Because it looks like it doesn't it doesn't look right. It doesn't look English. No, it's fine, Dave. You like? David, what do you think of the word less a thin? Uh, kind of makes me uncomfortable. There you go. All right. Less of thin seems to conk out after just a month or so. Uh, that month or two. because it's like incredibly hygroscopic. So it's like pulling stuff out of the air. It clumps up. You need to store that stuff in completely vacuumed out,
+
+[24:45] like, low moisture with, like, silica package. The stuff just like sucks up moisture, like nobody's business. I don't think it actually goes bad though, does it? Does it suck a moisture? It doesn't like, it clumps and becomes, even if you store it with silica gel, in a vacuum without compressing it, like in a jar. Haven't done that. I buy liquid less a thing. I don't use it. So I don't have that problem. When I used to use it at the school, we used to just throw it away all the time because people would open it and it would clump and then I would throw it away. I make my own cooking spray out of oil and alcohol emulsified with a little liquid lessetin. And do you call it Paul instead of Pam? It's good idea. Yeah. What, do you like it better than the one that you just buy? Mm. It allows me to vary my oil. But I mean, do you think it makes a difference? No. Okay. You just want to do it. This is why I love Paul. Okay. Are there any rules of thumbs on the various shelf flights of hydrocoloids? Less thin. We mentioned, are there others that need replacing in anything short of 5 years or so? Look, I think some of these things, basically they're like, you know, they'll be around for the next ice age as long as they're kept dry. Like, I have used. I have personally used Alginet's, that are 10 years old. You know what I mean? I, uh, Jelen, I've probably used Jelen at 7 or 8 years old. Um, You know, so it's, um, I, you know, I just, I just don't worry about those things. And certain things like enzymes have a shelf life, but the good news about
+
+[26:20] enzymes. The good news about any of these things is they're kind of like medications, there is a shelf life that they have to put on because they have to put it on, but typically it's, it's not like, um, it's not
+
+[26:33] like, uh, a balloon that, like, after certain date, like, it has lost all its error. pot was kind of like a blue next. It slowly degrades. So if something, let's say that you were going to have a hydrocoloid, and let's think of a method where it might
+
+[26:45] degrade, there's some moisture in the air, maybe it hydrolyzes over time, breaks into smaller units, doesn't have the same kind of functionality it used to, it's possible, right?
+
+[26:52] Sure. Basically, it's just gonna get less efficacious over time. It's not going to like be good one day. There's no safety issue. So it's not going to be like good one day kill you the next, right? So, I mean, like the only shelf lives that I really worry about are shelf lives that are either due to
+
+[27:10] quality. Like this stuff's going to go rancid on me, but these things in general don't contain fats. And then two, um, is it going to lose, uh, if it is going to lose efficacy? The other one that you want to worry about on shelf life is kitasan. Kitus, anything that comes in a liquid format, like, I don't know about liquid lessithin, they are usually, if they're sold to the shelf stable thing, They are mostly shelf stabilized, but they're not permanently shelf stabilized. So things like kite sand, if you don't store them in the fridge, they'll throw they'll throw a mold flock after a while and you have to pitch them or things like this. Um, you know, so I would worry about mostly liquid prep, things like enzymes, like Pex and X Ultra SPL, tend to uh, degrade slowly in terms of their efficacy. So you have to add more. So in general, it's good to keep those things refrigerated and also to use them in a relatively timely manner. But if you're not using them industrially and you're not counting on a gram being a gram all the
+
+[28:04] time 100% of the time, then, eh, what do you think, both? Transgluterminates is the big one for me. Oh, yeah, that's true. What do they put on it? 6 months? As long as you reseal it, though. I've used stuff. I think they say a year, but Kalustian sells it unrefrigerated. Wiley Wiley Dufrayne, uh, you know, uh, chef extraordinary. My brother-in-law goes in and repeatedly tells them not to do
+
+[28:29] that, and they think he's some sort of, like, insane, like, homeless man. He doesn't look like a homeless man. But they think he's like some crazy person. Like, you know, like, uh, like, I don't know, what's the chef equivalent of a cat, like a cat lady? A transglutaminease refrigeration proselytizer. Yeah, he's like, you have to refrigerate that. And he told it to him like 20 times and they're like, okay, bye. It does still work. buy it there. Really? Yeah. Well, what's true is it doesn't need to be frozen. It's supposed to be frozen, right? But it doesn't need to be frozen if there is no water present. So if you have actually packaged it in a place where there is 0 water present, then freezing
+
+[29:09] it in theory, shouldn't do that much to help it or to hurt it. As soon as there's any moisture present, the freezing prevents the it from gluing itself to itself, you know, or gluing it or like gluing itself to the
+
+[29:21] case or whatever. You know what I mean? Whatever. The wet dog test is good. Wet dog test always good. Famous cooking issues, wet dog test. Sprinkle some on some chicken, chicken, chicken breast, my favorite,
+
+[29:34] a chicken, thigh, chicken, I think is the most effective because it's relatively neutral. If you put it on there, rub it in, and then sniff it. Don't huff the freaking stuff, but if you sniff it, it should smell like wet dogs or if you don't have a dog, like a wet wolf sweater. We got a color? Call her, you're on the air. Oh, hey, how are you? This is Rob. coming from a North Fork of Long Island. Big fan of you guys. First time calling in. How you doing today? Doing well. Doing well. Good, good. Um, I got kind of a kind of a random question for you. Um, I'm actually out here vacationing with some friends and um, been getting really into the foraging scene and um, made a bunch of stuff that we forage locally up here. We got these really cool uh, we made an escabesh of wild mussels that all of us gathered, probably about a 100 of them. There's really cool little guys that have like sort of ridges that I'd never really seen before, but they were like delicious. Who were they mussels or were they arc shells? What's that? Were they mussels or were they arc shells? Were they white with ridges or were they the classic, like, like, blue and blackish muscles? Pretty classic looking with just with these little ridges that looked a little different. But yeah, classic looking muscle. All right, cool. Sorry, go ahead. Uh, we had that and some some wild herbs that we found and uh, these little wild carrots with these sort of little lacy flowers on the top. Okay, be careful with wild carrots. Do you have an expert with you? Uh, we don't. And I'm actually calling, uh, we don't really have internet access out here, but my phone works and a couple of people aren't feeling so good and I just figured you guys... Are you joking? Are you joking with me, by the way? Is this a joke? Are you calling to test me or not? Uh, no, I'm I'm I'm serious. Okay, listen, you have to be careful. Paul, look up, someone look up carrots right now. Are they unbelievable? What family? Are they on Bela? I can't pronounce it. Umbrella? You have to be extraordinarily careful with with Umbleis because there are some extremely, extremely poisonous versions of Umbleis, like things like wild parsley and wild carrots, very, very dangerous to forage. Do you have any left? Uh, we got a couple, yeah. You need to take a picture. You need to take a picture of it, and you need to send it to a poison control person to make sure that no one,
+
+[31:52] now there are some that are relatively different in terms of what they, uh, you know, what's in them, uh, or what's not. And I'm not an expert, so I cannot diagnose it, but you want to make sure that someone didn't consume anything related to water hemlock or any one of the
+
+[32:07] other umbelaci family that are no good for you. In general, any APA, so they're not. They safe? Yes. Look, look, look up, look up searching, look up searching for... because we're sort of out here. We don't really have internet. Look up searching for. Oh, the Paul's looking it up for you. And David, you look it up too. Look for wild carrots dangers. The APACA, also known as Umbelifer. Yeah, so it is one. commonly known as the celery carrot or parsley family. Okay, you need to be careful. So take a picture of this. Can you, if you can text it to, uh, uh, I mean, I don't know how do you get, uh, or just call shoot. should we do here? I can, uh, I mean, I, I'll probably just drive into town because I'm a worried, you know, the couple of the girls have diarrhea and,
+
+[32:57] uh, go, go, go right now. Go right now, please. go right now, bring it with you. Have them test it. When you get better internet access, try to get a positive ID, you have to be really careful when you're foraging for wild
+
+[33:10] carrots while parsing and stuff like that. You need to really be like 100% sure of the diagnosis. I don't want to worry you too much because there's lots of stuff that can just give you a stomach ache and you're probably going to be all right, but please don't mess around with it. Hang up now, go. Please tech, please, um, uh, uh, please tweet at cooking issues. I want to know that you guys are okay, all right? All right, yeah, we kind of had to use the extra well water. It smelled a little funky, too. I did it. Let's hope it is. Let's hope it is. Yeah, get going right now. I hope it's the well water. Sure you guys are okay, but please take care of it, all right? All right, thank you. Bye. For urging issues. Yeah, I hope they're okay. Saving lives on cooking issues. Well, who knows? I mean, let's hope, let's hope it's the wall, well water. I mean, well, bad well water will get you really sick. And the odds are that the stuff that they forage is not poisonous, but
+
+[33:58] I've never foraged that stuff, and I've never become an expert in foraging that type of plant simply because there's all these warnings on wild carrots and
+
+[34:08] parsley. So it's Paul, you also forage. you know, you stay away from that stuff too, right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I haven't had occasion to stay away from it, but I would stay away from it. Anything anything that looks like, uh, like, uh, like an umbrella, like I stay away from it, where the flowers look like an umbrella, I stay away from
+
+[34:26] it, unless I planted it. Let's take a quick break and come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[34:48] Hey, this is Gavin Van Vlack and Physical Culture Collective, Bushwick, Brooklyn. You are listening to the Heritage radio network. Gavin Van Vleck and Jenny Livingston and Physical Culture Collective bring you an alternative gym experience right in Bushwick. It's fun to move around, and to move around in a way that you wouldn't normally get a chance to do. So, like, a lot of what we do here is, you know, on the ground or standing, you're not, you know, you're using
+
+[35:21] equipment, but you're not using machines. I grew up in very alternative cultures. I grew up in the punk rock and hardcore scene. Muay Thai was something that very much resonated to me. And it was like, yeah, this is this is something that I can get around. This is a sport that's for me. Learn more about classes and membership options at physicalculturecollective.com or visit them at 857 Broadway in Bushwick, Brooklyn. And we are back. hope those guys are okay. I'm sure they are Okay. Let's get to some questions. By the way, longtime listener. Brandon Johnson sent in a package for us to look at it, but I'm going to talk about it. I'm not going to talk about today because I don't really
+
+[36:04] know, I don't really understand what to say about it. give me a give me another email. Let me know, let me know what you want to talk about on that. Quinn wrote in. I've been looking to make an outdoor tandor oven for home use. This is like safety day on cooking issues. I've been looking into making an outdoor tandor oven for home use. My main problem is that I have not been able to find an ungalvanized trash can needed to contain the clay pots, fire
+
+[36:25] bricks, and vermiculate, which is a good word. It is a good word. Vermiculate. It's weird. Why? Like, it sounded like because it's like loose, like worms have gone through it? Is that why it's vermiculate? Probably. I feel okay with that word. Yeah, me too. It's the only vermi word that I like. You don't like vermatelli? It grosses me out because I know it means like wormatelli. They don't like worms? I like them. like them in the garden. Do you like to eat worms? Vermiculture? That's not my thing. I know that you're a, you're a, you're a true, you've taken Jeffrey Steingarden to his. I mean, I've eaten worms, but I'm not like, oh, you know what? Worms, just what I really want tonight for dinner. Just doesn't come up. I like the word vermicos. come up yet. Yeah. And it won't because it's still not the most efficient way to raise protein. Is it really? More efficient than just like agriculture. I mean, you gotta feed him something, right? Yeah, but you don't have to feed them something that you would otherwise use for anything else. Worms go really well with chilled monkey brands, right? Chilled a monkey brains. See, you make me like, like, you make me bust out the accent because anytime someone pulls out anything from Indiana Jones
+
+[37:37] in the Temple of Doom. I have to go with it. You know what I'm saying? Can't stop once, though. Can't stop me. can't stop one. Shield a monkey brains. Snake, a surprise. That guy is awesome. I wish I could remember that actor's name. Let's get him on the show. Oh my god. he's still alive, I'm going to get the guy on the show. You know who the, my favorite, like, a deep, deep voiced dude from the Indiana Jones series, though, is the, uh, well, his name just went out of my
+
+[38:01] head. The guy who says bad dates in the 1st one? Yeah, bad dates. I love that guy. And then she kisses him and he starts singing, I am the monarch of the seas. Monarch of the Sea. Remember that? No, I don't. Great. Are you not an Indiana Jones fan, Paul? I am. I've yeah, I closed my eyes during that. I remember that. Yeah. Except for Karen Allen kisses him. Yeah. Yeah. Her... yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, you didn't close your eyes, though, when the propeller chopped up the Nazi, right? Of course I did. You close your, well, the one that I saw it when I was entirely too young and the face melting really like kind of wiped
+
+[38:35] me out. still haven't seen that. You still haven't seen the face melting? think you can handle it now, Paul. I think you take it now. My main problem is that I haven't been able to find an ungap. Well, back to Quinn's question on tandors. I haven't been able to find an ungalvanized trash can needed to contain the clay pots. Uh, I've heard that galvanized metal gives off toxic fumes at high heat. Is this true? Yes. galvanized hot, you know, galvanizes covered in zinc, zinc vaporizes at a fairly low
+
+[39:02] temperature. Uh, it makes kind of like white and yellow, uh, weird wispy craps on the outside of the metal and you get a fume that comes off of it. I myself, you get what's called metal fume fever. And I myself have had this. It didn't obviously kill me or wipe me out, but when I 1st learned to weld. Uh, in college. They limited my access to the welder. So I put all of my money together, and I bought one of those like Home Depot 110 volt MIG welders, and then I brought it at college into my dorm room and was welding all night in the
+
+[39:37] bathroom, and I was welding, I was making parts. And so I was welding galvanized nuts onto pieces of metal all night. I was in my bathroom, communal bathroom. People would come in and I would stop welding. They're like, what are you doing? And I'm like, they wouldn't let me use the welder at the shop. So I'm there. And like, in the morning, thank
+
+[39:57] God, well, I got sick. But thank God, not terribly. No one in maintenance had any idea. I didn't realize this, but the, the, the, the slag coming off because it was flux core welding, you know, because I didn't have gas because I really wasn't rich, you know what I mean?
+
+[40:16] I was using flux cord welding. Uh, the slag and the little metal balls pitted all of the porcelain and tiles in the
+
+[40:24] thing, made little melt balls in it. But, They had no idea who or what to blame because it's not in the realm of mental possibility that some knucklehead idiot student has gone welding all night in the bathroom.
+
+[40:39] It just doesn't freaking compute. So I got off Scott, uh, scot free on that one. Anyway, fume fever. Metal? Well, yes. I meant as far as the administration is, I got my comeuppance because I felt very sick. anyway. If so, perhaps it would be wiser for me to buy a tandor oven instead. You can also, what people do with the galvanized ones is they'll do a burnout or buy a bucket that's regular steel with paint on it and do like a
+
+[41:05] long, hot burnout of the bucket. It makes really noxious fumes, but usually you can do it away from wherever you are. That's what a lot of people do when they're making like, I've done that myself. So, like, later on at a different location, we were making 55 gallon drum
+
+[41:20] grills. Different. Different, well, on a roof actually. And we cut them and we were torch cutting them and that's nasty because the fumes are disgusting. But then you just basically prop them up and you do massive, massive burnouts in them and you burn the paint off and then usually you're okay, which is another way to go. But you recommend going to get to Gulati Jr. home Tandor Model 100. I have not, go go to the next, go to the biggest one that he recommends for home. That's what I would recommend Quinn. Good luck with that. Um, We got a question in about, uh, from Judy and Malden Mass. We have time. Oh yeah. in Malden Mass, and she shares my aversion to the outdoors. It's the sun that I hate. I like being outside if there's no sun. I like overcast days, I like forests. Anyway, she writes, I'm recently unemployed for 4.5 months and I've motored through the episodes. I only have 33 left to listen to. My goodness, that's a lot of motoring. It's a font of information unlike anything else. I've certainly had a lot of aha moments. Recently, I joined Sweet Green and opening their new store in downtown Crossing here and it's pretty much changed my life. Up until a week ago, I've always had an aversion to raw kale. since a friend, a decade ago, tried to pass it off as cooked. This is not a friend. This is not a friend. A friend who tries to pass off raw kale as cooked kale, not a friend. Enemy. Why would you do that? Why would you do that? Nowadays, I come around on this, though. I still can't say I love it. So what's the deal? Why is if they had so damn hard to cook kale correctly? I'm not sure I've heard of the existence of a wilted kale dish. It's not hard to cook it correctly. It's just everyone thinks that you can just cook it for a couple minutes and then go. It's like collards. You gotta cook it for a long freaking time to have it actually taste good. It's not, it wasn't, like, when it's developed as a variety, it wasn't developed to be, like, you know, a spring roll rapper. It was, you know, or like a lightly wilted thing. It was meant you were meant to cook to be Jesus out of it. unless it's extraordinarily young. So now people pick all this kale, it's extraordinarily young, and then they can do it like lightly on a pizza or in a salad or something like this, and it's not so terrible, but like kale is meant to be a
+
+[43:26] big old, tough mother of green that you chop up and you cook the ever loving snot out of it. That's it's not hard. It's just, for some reason, we've forgotten what kale is for. And what's her name? Mimi Sheridan, who I often disagree with, just did something on NPR about this. Yeah, and you can go look it up. But anyway, I think she's sour. Really? Yeah. Anyway, but she's right about the kale. And she blames herself. She's like, I was on the kale bandwagon, but crap on what's happening right now with kale. That what she said. Crap on crap on it. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I do like you after all. Yeah. It's essentially an industrial garnish. use it in supermarkets because it never wilts. Industrial garnish. That's, like, is that it's more of an album than a band name, right? Right. Or a hit single. Additionally, one thing I've always, one thing I've always stumbled upon, never been able to successfully execute is Christina Tozi's buttermilk
+
+[44:21] cake. It never comes together just right. I tried to bake it anyway. I flip it onto a cutting board and it's all over. I know that anytime I've seen this recipe, Toes, he emphasizes the importance of keeping everything chilled, thinking on this after listening to cooking
+
+[44:33] issues. I wonder if the cake should be like grinding meat where you initially freeze your bowl and beater. Any insight on this is I would be much appreciated as I'm a fan of pineapple upside down cake and making the milk bar version would be
+
+[44:45] incredible. Thanks for the inside Judy. And then I asked for more info. And she said, it's the cake texture that's coming out wrong. I originally tried making Tozie's barely brown butter cake for her apple pie layer cake. I think it came out very loose and messy, even though the surface looked cooked. After hours of listening, listening, it's simply a little tingle down my spine to be called out on cooking issues. Okay, well, I emailed Christina, and I said that you were having problems, and she said, the secret to the cake is to really value the creaming process and ingredient
+
+[45:14] corporation, um, step, sort by step, because the non-fat buttermilk we use in our cake
+
+[45:20] recipes. So, listen, because the non-fat buttermilk we use in our cake recipes contain so much water that you have to be very careful about streaming it in little by little into the fully creamed butter, sugar,
+
+[45:31] eggs, and oil. The buttermilk often looks to force a separation, but your job, as a baker, is to force a
+
+[45:38] homogen homogenization. It takes longer than most expect 2 to 3 minutes, and it's a crucial step to achieve before adding any of the dry ingredients.
+
+[45:46] XOXO Christina. Uh, this in from Steve in Los Angeles. Hey guys, I'm having trouble shopping around for succinic acid. Most of the offerings available online or in tablet form, and there seems to be one available on Amazon who has it in powdered form, but the bottle says for lab
+
+[46:01] or R&D use only. Is this one of those warnings that's just there because of the extreme concentration? Or is it cool to use? Although you say you're going to use it for champagne acid? I don't put succinic in champagne acid. I put it in lime acid blends, but, you know, the champagne acid is tartaric
+
+[46:17] and lactic.
+
+[46:20] Um, and then he also as, I find I'm using the Amazon tells me that people who bought it also bought liquid intelligence and some more acids. I looked at it. It's reagent grade, Steve. So I can't tell you whether or not it's, I wouldn't trust it, it's safe. I would trust only USP grade, which is United States Pharmacobia grade or the FCC like food grade stuff. It's entirely possible that it's safe, but each chemical has its own way that it's synthesized and
+
+[46:48] their own possible contaminants that are in it. So it could be that this facilities and everyone that makes acinic acid makes the reagent grade in a purity that's not acceptable for USP, but doesn't have
+
+[47:00] anything that's not going to hurt you. For instance, heavy metals or other contaminants or poisons, but it's entirely possible that it has some terrible contaminants in it. So I would not use it, even though succinic acid is used in very small quantities. Um, I'll have to look and see if I can find a, um, see if I can find a, uh,
+
+[47:16] source of USP succinic acid. It's not fantastically expensive.
+
+[47:19] Shoot. They're going to rip us off. How much time do we have left? Oh, it's okay. You want to take one last call, actually? Yeah, call her, call her. Oh, bummer. Impatient. All right. So listen, I'm going to have to deal with John Vermont Island's fruit trimmings questions. Alex has steaming questions. Steaming questions. You want it? Okay, you want to take a quick steaming question? Or do you want to talk about the Brevel thing? long do we have? I don't know. You got like 2 minutes. Two minutes? Two. Two. Your call, my brother. We also have a chimichurri question, which I'll get next time because I found some patents on pesto, which have the most hilarious, bad translated English people. If you're writing a patent and you're gonna patent it in the English language, just pay someone to translate it properly. The language is so amazing. It's like so heartfelt on how this person wants you to enjoy this garlic product that they're
+
+[48:11] making. and the English. It's like, it's like the translations on the Kasugai gummies, which I think are my favorite. You know what I mean? Yeah, so we'll get to that next time. And Kieran has a question on pork tonkatsu, which we'll get to next time. You want to talk about the Brevel machine real quick? Yeah, what have you done so far with your Bravel polyscience control freak? Okay, so look, it's expensive, right? How much does it cost? 1799, I believe. Okay. Here's the thing. And it plugs into a wall outlet, which means the maximum energy it can
+
+[48:37] get. 1800 watts of power is like, I think, somewhere I calculated it once, the equivalent stove BTUs is somewhere between, like, 13 or 14,000 equivalent BTUs of flame output on a
+
+[48:50] pan. Really? Yeah. It's, uh, the difference it has with other things is it has a probe that you can control off of and it has an actual, like, depressed, like, metal thing that measures the heat of the pan much more accurately than the glass things do. It's also bigger, it's more robust. It doesn't look like it's going to break. got vents, it's got a lot of controls, not a lot of nice bells and whistles, and it's got a PID controller that can be adjusted for the level of aggression that you want. Backing up, you can set the exact temperature that you want to heat your pan. Oh, to the degree, yes, in either Celsius or some Fahrenheit. It plugs into a regular socket, and it's as powerful as any unit will ever be that can plug into a regular socket, and it comes in a very nice caterer's case that allows you to carry the thing around. The actually, the only negative thing I can say about it is that the thing that plugs the probe into freaks me out because it's not at an angle that I can hit 100% every
+
+[49:36] time. And so when I pull it in and out, I'm always worried that I'm going to ruin it over time, but as the band says, only time will tell. Uh, you know, I saw, was it Asia? Anyway, so the only time we'll tell, is that Asia? Could be. Anyway. So, it is, I, I, here's some awesome things you can do with it, right? First of all, I talked to Philip Preston who worked on it a little bit on the thing, but he couldn't get on because he's dealing with some people at Boeing, you know, saving people in airplanes or whatever. But there's a USB on it that is going to allow for firmware upgrades and he kind of hinted at the fact that you'd be able to put custom programming in eventually, meaning things like rice cooker
+
+[50:12] programs, and stuff like that so that you can actually put profiles in. Now, whether they're going to let you do a ramp on temper, a ramp on rate, or whether they're going to let you hit a certain temp eventually and then knee it up or down so that you
+
+[50:24] can do relatively different interesting rice things, only time will tell. I really want a yogurt program that goes to pasteurize and then goes down
+
+[50:32] to... A 100 and goals. Yeah, and I think that the unit, if you get it now, we'll be able to do that, but I'm going to try to get you more stuff, but it is without a question, the best leftover reheater ever.
+
+[50:45] The day that it came was my brother's birthday and my mom was making like old school. Did I talk about this already in the air? macaroni. They call it macaroni and gravy in Boston. It's pasta with, you know, what we would call spaghetti sauce here with all the different meats in it, right? Brazole, you know, pork skin, Brazola, whole 9 and meatballs, pork chops, sparabs, everything. cooked. And so she brings the sauce and for, and like, if you burn the sauce in, in this family, like, literally decades, decades later, I hear the story about someone who's been dead now for 2 decades, who burnt the sauce once, and they're like,
+
+[51:20] 0 my God, do you remember when Annette didn't pay attention, and she burnt the sauce, burnt the gravy. When she burnt the gravy and you're like, yes, you know, I wasn't actually alive yet, but I remember you telling me the story of the burnt
+
+[51:31] gravy. You can never fix the burnt gravy because once you burn the tomato and it burns in, it permeates everything, you stir it once and the whole thing's
+
+[51:37] toast, it's done. Anyway. So you just stick anything of any viscosity on. Turn it onto the temperature you want and it doesn't scorch it or overheated. So it's the world's greatest reheater of leftovers and pasta leftovers, by the way. I hear this. What? We got a boogie. Oh, I hear we hear the gravy that way. But also, uh, I use it on my pressure cooker so that like my regular stovetop pressure cooker so that it never goes over pressure. I set it at 5 degrees above my finished pressure and it ramps up. I said it at like in Fahrenheit, like to, I said it like 263 or something like that, and it goes up to
+
+[52:13] 250 and I could put it back down 259 if I need. But anyway, Paul can come back on sometime, we can talk more about the unit. I'm pretty, uh, like this over. Wiley loves it. Really? Yeah. Anyway, we could talk more. someone asks questions about it. We'll talk about it. Cooking issues.
+
+[52:32] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[53:01] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the poet Goddard professor of Nutrition Food Studies and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member based nonprofit radio station operating out of Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed. The interviewers are always really well prepared. And fun to talk to about the issues that mattered to me, the most, about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people
+
+[0:35] and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage Radio Network by becoming a member today. Go to heritageradionetwork.org and click on the beating heart to donate. Today's program is brought to you by Origins, a speaker series about food, its
+
+[1:04] source, and how we eat, available on heritageradionetwork.org. Hi, this is Joe Campanelli, the host of In the Drink. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:29] Hello and welcome to Cookie issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking YouTube coming to you live in the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from, you know, well, 1215
+
+[1:40] today to, you know, like 1245, 1250, sometimes one, it depends. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is joining us via telephone today because she's in the
+
+[1:50] watch. Hey, you're in the wilds of Connecticut on the way back from 4th of July, yeah? Right. I'm on 95 right now going slow. That sounds awesome. 95 is 95. Like, if I could choose one place as hell. It would be 95 with traffic. The only the only thing that can make it worse is if you were driving that towards sunset with the shun shining directly in your eyes because it's actually basically where you are,
+
+[2:18] it's it's actually 95 west. It's not 95 south where you are. It's like you face directly into the sun. It's my favorite. I love it. Right. Yeah, in your pickup, would make it would make it the best. Oh, so those who don't know, I have a pickup truck. It was gifted to me by my cousin, and the brakes failed, and I thought I had fixed them this weekend, but it turns out that I made it halfway down my intensely steep
+
+[2:42] driveway only to have the brakes fail again. Thank God for parking brakes. Oh, yeah. Parking brakes. And then when you hit, have you out there ever had? Hey David, you ever had your brakes fail on you? Sure, yeah. Yeah? Like was it scary for you? Very scary, yeah. Yeah. The, um, then once uh, you know, like, so like what happened was the brakes had like started to get, uh, you know, spongy, right? So I'm like, yeah, you know, I don't know, man. It hasn't been serviced in a while. So I just dumped some brake fluid in, gave it a couple pumps into the master cylinder, and the cylinder, you know, the pedal comes back up. I'm like, wow, I have brakes again. I can get to a place and, you know, have them check the lines and stuff. And then, like I say, halfway down the driveway, all the way down to the floor. And then when I had the parking brake and I would start hitting it, it would go, it was like an asthmatic version of me when I was young and I could see like the mist of the brake fluid spraying out from underneath the freaking
+
+[3:38] hood. So, yeah. Yeah, I sprung a leak like that once, it was terrifying. Yeah. How much did it cost you to fix it? I mean, I'm thinking I don't even remember. It was a junk car, though. Oh, man. I gotta fix it. I gotta fix it. I'm sure I can do it myself. It's just going to take me, you know, a whole day. Anyway, Nastasia is also a fan of broken cars. Are you in a rental car this week or are you in a car that's going to break down on the way home again? Well, I am in a rental car. It's not stick, which is why I can talk to you like this. And hopefully it doesn't break down. Nice. How was your 4th of July, Nastasia? It was good. Fireworks, beach, fan, things you hate. Me, me, I love fireworks. That's true. Did you cook anything interesting? Um, no, just the regular stuff? Hot dogs and hamburgers. What about you? Um, I, I've been modifying my uh, vertical grilling techniques, tandor
+
+[4:38] techniques to work in horizontal environments in the extremely hot fired cowboy grill that I
+
+[4:43] have such that uh, everyone can hang out outside, you know, instead of like, because they won't hang
+
+[4:47] out, they won't hang around where the tandor is, they won't hang around. You know what I'm saying? So I had to modify the techniques and my cowboy grill has a secondary side thing where I can put things to
+
+[4:56] rest, almost like hanging skewers. So I still did everything on skewers. I did chicken and lamb. I did the chicken from raw because you just do it, you know, you marinate it, tandor style, pound the hell out of it, and so it's not, it's
+
+[5:07] going to cook quickly and it's going to be tender. And the lamb, I did, I low tempted 1st at like, you know, people actually don't like their lamb that that rare. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yeah, right. They think they want it rare, but they don't really want it that rare. So like you're doing a steak down at like 55 degrees Celsius and people are like, yeah, that's good. That's where I one mistake. But they think they want their lamb there, but really, they want it like 56. 57. So that's where I cooked it up there, cooled it all the way down, and then just, you know, incinerated the outside tandor style like 3 times off and on. Good. Good. Nice. Yeah. Did that one. I used herbs from my garden, herbs. Yeah, nice. Did you do fireworks? So, like, I didn't think anyone was going to be over. And so I didn't. buy fireworks, but I had leftovers from last year, some like small mortars, you know, and some rockets that are, so I had some New Hampshire fireworks, some Connecticut, read bull
+
+[6:06] crap fireworks, and some Pennsylvania fireworks I had left over. The Pennsylvania fireworks are interesting because you're allowed to, so the rule in New Hampshire is, as you know, Nastasia, that they only sell fireworks
+
+[6:18] that you light walk away from. And then as soon as they go off, they're no longer powered, right? Which means no bottle rockets, no bottle rockets, no rockets, right? in New Hampshire. And no fire crackers, strangely. Where in Pennsylvania, everything's allowed, but New Hampshire, the store I go is a lot cheaper. So I like shopping there. Anyway, I had some leftovers. So we had a nice little show, but it only lasted the length of Ray
+
+[6:43] Charles America, the beautiful song.
+
+[6:47] You know what I mean? It's like, uh, that was that, you know, normally,
+
+[6:52] like I have to go from that into like, I have to do like American woman. I have to do like, you know, like 3 or 4 songs to get through my firework arrangement, but it's just this one was just all Ray Charles. I had the 1000 want, you know, remember my 1000 watt amplifier? I had that crank that had the Ray Charles going and then back and forth. Nice, that's nice. Yeah, but I'm going to do, I think I'm going to do it. try to make a trip up to New Hampshire at some point before the summer's over and then just have like a, you know, maybe you can come and end of the summer, like fireworks. Bonanza. All right, cool. We'll have a, you know, a fireworks bananza. Look, the fact of the matter is, everybody likes illegal fireworks. absolutely everybody. even except for like, you know, certain dogs and certain small children. Uh, you know, you just got to be you got to be careful. Did you hear that some poor kid stepped on someone else's improvised firework over the weekend and got his foot blown off in Central
+
+[7:43] Park? Oh, yeah. So yeah, I saw on the news last night, yeah. Terrible. Terrible. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's not really a cooking related issue, but there you go. Oh, on a cooking related issue. Someone wanted to me to talk about it. I'm training my dog, my my lab, my black lab major. I'm training him, sent training him to be a truffle dog now. So. I saw that photo, yeah, wait, so what do you do? He was having smell fake trouble? Well, that's the thing. I was like, does fake truffle work because literally it's just like one chemical that they that they put into oil to make it seem like it's truffle oil, right? So I just, I just, you know, and but the guy, my guy, Charles, his name is
+
+[8:22] Lefevre, but I call him the fever. I call him Charles the fever. He's like the Oregon truffle expert. And he says, yeah, you can use truffle oil, and dogs somehow generalize. So here's the long and the short of it. Truffles, you know, like all variety of truffles grow underground, right? We know this. We all know this. They grow underground. But the way that they reproduce is they create a smell that animals, like a lot of
+
+[8:48] times smaller animals like you chipmunks, your voles, things like this. They smell that from up top side, dig down to get at it, eat it, and you
+
+[8:56] ready, Styles, poop out the spools. They poop out the spools. So all truffles, when they're ripe, have some sort of aroma that's at least enticing to
+
+[9:06] mammals in the woods, right? I mean, that's how that's how they've evolved to be to reproduce. So, uh, you know, Dr. the Fever tells me that, uh, that, uh, there are definitely truffle species. In fact, I know I looked it up. There's a one called the pecan truffle, which is harvested commercially in down in Georgia and down south, which grows all the way up to Quebec in conjunction with hickories, pecans, and like sometimes oak trees.
+
+[9:36] But he says that there's definitely truffle varieties. It's just, you know, he doesn't know if they taste good and a lot of them haven't been characterized yet. And he says, like part of the problem with truffles is, for instance, so I'm going to the, I'm going to Oregon during truffle
+
+[9:48] season in, I guess, January or whatnot to, you know, see firsthand, like searching for good truffles. But one of the problems is, is they call the truffles that are harvested over there, Oregon white and Oregon black
+
+[9:58] truffles, when in fact they smell nothing like European white or black truffles. So it's kind of one of those things where people are like, um, it doesn't smell like a truck full, so it's no good. Well, no, it's just different. You know what I mean? It's a different product. I mean, it doesn't command the prices, obviously, of like, you know, the Milanos forum or the magnetum, you know, truffles from Italy and France,
+
+[10:17] but, you know, they're good, valid culinary things. Apparently, I haven't had one, you know, that, you know, recently to tell you, but he says one of the main problems with quality is that people harvest them with rakes, like chumpy people go out there with
+
+[10:32] rakes and rake them up. And so you get these unripe ones. And he says, unripe ones are culinarily useless because they only develop their characteristic aromas once they want to be dug up by a woodland creature and eaten and pooped out.
+
+[10:46] So he says the only way to really harvest a good truffle,
+
+[10:50] or again, or otherwise is to use animals like dogs. And so he trains his dog to look for. And he says his dog can find all manner, all manner of truffles. And he says, truffles that are hunted that way. Obviously, they cost more because, you know, you're not just raking them up by the bushel. You getting the ones that are ripe, but he says those are the ones that have culinary values. So who knows? Who knows? So I'm trying to train major to see whether he can ever find a truffle over in our neck of the
+
+[11:14] woods. And then later on, we'll figure out whether, you know, they're any good or not. But, yeah, you got to be careful of when he finds them, you know, last night and all that crap. Yeah, well, there's no, there are no toxic truffles, right? Because remember, they're all meant to be eaten. However, underground, things can look like truffles that are actually early stage mushroom, you know, in
+
+[11:38] quotes because they're not eggs, obviously, eggs, and those can be deadly poisonous ammonitas. And so you have to cut them in half and kind of know what's going on. Those typically don't have a smell, but don't worry, I'm not going to eat them until I know what's, I'm not
+
+[11:50] going to eat anything until I know what's going on. Speaking of which, for those of you that tuned into last week's show, we had a caller who may or may not have poisoned himself, his
+
+[12:02] girlfriend, and her friends, but I'm glad I'm here to report. So the issue was they had foraged for wild carrots, which is incredibly dangerous. Don't do it, unless you know what you're doing. I mean, if you know what you're doing, it's fine, but if you don't know what you're doing, it's not like a,
+
+[12:16] it's not an amateur foraging sitch there, the wild carrots. And then at the same time, they had drunk questionable, smelly well water. So these are 2 these are 2 mistakes. But I am extremely happy to report that it was the well water people and that, you know, they all went to the hospital and everyone's
+
+[12:36] okay. And, you know, nobody, nobody died, a little bit of dehydration because, you know, the well water. It goes in, but it also comes out along with the rest of the water in you. Boom. So the, uh, so yeah, so, you know, it had to be on IV fluids there for a little while, but apparently everyone's okay, and we're super glad to hear it. I had some people asking me, actually, in person and also on Twitter, like, hey, are those guys okay? Yes, they're okay. But be careful if you're going to forage for um, for wild carrots. Oh, similarly, though, seriously, with mushrooms, like, uh, you got to know what you're doing, or only hunt for mushrooms that have no poisonous
+
+[13:14] look-alikes, because once you eat a, uh, an emanita, you know, like a destroying angel or something like that, like the, you know, the only way out to get a liver transplant, which is kind of
+
+[13:23] unpleasant. So there you have it. Oh, geez, live a transplant. So, listen, we have some questions from, um, so yeah, you know what the only truffle oil they had? White truffle oil. The stuff. You know, and I had to buy a whole bottle, Nastasia, for 15 freaking dollars. Do you know, like, how the heck am I going to go through a whole bottle? I'm dipping a little bit in a Q-tip? You know, it's like a waste. Does anyone out there want, like, you know, when I'm done, like the rest of it, you know what we should do? We should just keep mailing this bottle around from person to person training dogs
+
+[13:54] and tell, like, you know, the entire the entire country is trained off this one bottle of white truffle oil. Yeah, it was a good idea. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Or else like to punk someone, just pour it over someone and run. You know what I mean? It's like I told a story like, I have a really bad history in my house of flavored oils, obviously.
+
+[14:15] I told the wasabi oil one, right? Where Dax, so my pantry, right, has all these bottles that are lined up in Dax, who's, you know, he was maybe 9 or 10 at the time. He, uh, you know, the kids are careless. Kids are freaking careless. They, uh, you know, they they say everything's an accident, but really it's that they're careless. You know what I mean? So he knocks a, he knocks a bottle over. And I hear the, I'm like, what's going on? What's, you know, and then I hear, my eyes. Because he like, you can see gone down to look at this wasabi oil, and the wasabi oil just goes,
+
+[14:47] and like, you know, almost like, you know, like a wave of death smell just like goes into his eyes and nose.
+
+[14:53] Oh man. So anyway, so I have a really bad history with that kind of stuff. Or like, you know, spilling some nasty, like, you know, like super green parsley oil or like super green.
+
+[15:04] I told the story on air, I think, where, like, my Miley, my sister-in-law, uh, when she, her 1st date with Wiley Dufrayne was over at my house and I dumped an entire
+
+[15:13] banya cauda, like anchovy oil on her. So, like, just if you come to my house and there are some sort of extremely pungent or extremely colorful oil nearby run, just
+
+[15:26] run, because, like, it's going to end up on your on your new dress, it's going to end up in your eyes,
+
+[15:33] uh, you know, up your nose, anywhere other than where it's supposed to be, where it's going to end up anyway. Yep. I was like, my phone decided that I didn't want to actually read the questions that people
+
+[15:45] asked. I said, here we go. Okay. So, uh, we had a couple questions from last week I need to get to. Alex wrote in, I don't think I got to this. Hey, Dave, Nastasia. and it says Jack, no more Jack. It's David now. It's David. How are we going to get Sorry, guys. Are we going to keep you separate from me because you're with the A and I'm the A? Yeah, I'll be the id. You'd be in. you be the ego. remember that? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, anyway, um, the question was, uh, let's see. I've been wondering if you guys still have a link to the plexophonic cover of vicious vicious vodka from episode 99. Do we have that, David? Did Jack stash that somewhere on the... What is it? It's the vicious, vicious vodka cover that, you know, that we open the show with sometimes. Plexifying. We opened with this time. Yeah, but he wants a link to download it, I think. Oh okay. see what I can find. Yeah. I think maybe we put it up once on episode 99 and then I don't know if it's, I don't know if it came back. Anyway, now to a more cooking related question. I'm trying to figure out a good way to steam items quickly. I'm not sure how restaurants usually steam. Is there some sort of turbo steaming device? Yes, yes, there is. Um, but I have a flat bottom walk that I tend to steam things in such as fish. Would it be better if I use a large cast iron pot of sorts that has a heavy lid? Thanks, Alex. So here's here's any wishes, Jack, good luck on the tour, which is nice. Jack is not there yet, right? He's leaving him pretty soon. Maybe he's there. I don't know. Not yet. I'm sure he'll tell us what's going on. He probably won't. The, I'm just kidding. Here's the good news about a walk. One of the good reasons to use a walk when you're steaming. One of the bad reasons to use a walk when you're steaming is if you leave the water in there, it
+
+[17:27] can, you can have some rust issues if it's not really, really well seasoned. And even if it is, it can be a little bit of a pain in the butt because you should have. I hope you have a carbon steel or cast iron walk and not a stainless walk. But anyway, but the good news about what makes a walk a good steamer and what makes a walk also for that matter, you know, a passable
+
+[17:49] fryer is that it expands as it goes out. So when you're frying, you want that expanding lip because when you add stuff to oil, it tends to bubble violently.
+
+[18:00] And if you have a straight walled pan. It's very easy for the stuff to overflow, which is terrible. Now, the bad side about a walk for frying is that unless you have a very good ring, you have to make sure it's 100%
+
+[18:13] stable, a 100% stable because an unstable walk with oil in it is very, very dangerous. This is one of the reasons that I prefer to use the Cantonese style walk with the 2 little handles on it rather than the walk with the big handle that you can pick up and flip and to do stir fry with because what a freaking nightmare, if you have a wok full of oil that's hot, and some
+
+[18:34] nin cow poop comes up and like elbows the freaking handle sticking out of the side of your walk and dumps oil all over a lit burner and you talk about like running around
+
+[18:43] going, Imagine like burning oil like everywhere, right? So I don't recommend using a walk with a long handle on it for that kind of work, but I do use, um, the rather large, relatively, and I have a very stable walk ring, uh, those things uh, for frying,
+
+[19:00] and I, you know, and I feel, I feel good about it because they're not going to overflow on you, which is one of the main dangers because people always tend to over, overfill their frying stuff.
+
+[19:09] Now, the flip side of that is that the worst thing that can happen when you're steaming is, well, you don't have enough power or
+
+[19:16] puny. But the other 2 things that suck about steaming are, one, your steaming implement, whether it be
+
+[19:22] baskets. By the way, commercially, they just have large cabinet steamers, and they either work on a drawer, they have drawer steamers, and they also have steamers that you open like a combi oven, and it's just rack after rack, and you put it in,
+
+[19:35] they take fantastic amounts of power, and they're freaking awesome. Some of them can do under pressure. You can pressure seam stuff like lobsters. Some of them have they have dedicated boilers, some of them. They're freaking sick. They're amazing. They steam like a mamma jama. You're not gonna get one. So, um, the problem then, if you're doing steaming at home, on, you know, on top of, and they make little, you know, kind of electric steamers, but I think they're kind of like, you know, whatever, they're like, whatever, you know,
+
+[19:59] whatevs. But if you, um, if you're steaming at home, one of the problems is trying to get a good seal between the vessel that you're using and
+
+[20:07] um, the steaming thing. So I have the bamboo steamers, I have a whole bunch of them. The problem with the bamboo steamers, by the way, is that if you don't let them dry, right, they mold, which sucks. You know, a mildew and mold, which sucks. But they make stainless steel ones. They make a bunch. But the problem with those is, is they have to fit fairly well in your in your
+
+[20:26] thing or you have steam shooting out of the sides, which sucks. So the great thing about a wok is that you have
+
+[20:35] those sloping sides and with the sloping sides, it can fit various sizes of steamer basket
+
+[20:41] relatively easily. The other cool thing is that as the water boils in a
+
+[20:47] wok, right? You know, it takes a lot of time to boil the upper layers
+
+[20:52] because in order it keeps concentrating down. So it's harder to boil a wok dry without noticing because of the way it slopes down. It always has that little kind of bit of water at the end. You have time to fill it up. And when you do fill it up, it fills up out. And so you have a big surface area and you have, you can, anyway, you kind of get that drift of what I'm saying. One thing I will say about wok steaming and steaming in general in tiered basket systems as opposed to in a big machine with doors or drawers is that there is a very large difference in the steaming time and the characteristics between the bottom basket and the top basket.
+
+[21:28] So I don't really like to steam more than 3 baskets. And even when I do, sometimes I'll swap them around. You know what I'm saying? Is that what do you think, Styles? Good job. I never know. Am I talking too much? Too little. Your reasoning is sound. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, all right. Oh, and don't worry about the lid. The lid's not a big deal. Steam has to escape anyway. What are you trying to build a bomb? You know what I mean? Like it has to be tight enough that like you're getting good circulation and that you're not like, you know, having a place where the steam isn't isn't traveling to, but I wouldn't worry about like getting some super
+
+[21:59] tight fitting lid. I think that's just mumbo jumbo. But you know, whatever. someone can get back to me and tell me that I'm wrong. I'm a bad person, et cetera, et cetera. Um, uh, John Vermont Island wrote in a long time ago about fruit trimmings. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer. I'm going to toss this out to the community and I'm sure that someone will tweet her in a thing here. I will read the question. I find that I'm generating a lot of trimmings while preparing summer fruits, particularly in trying to make things clean in quotes for my kids. Think stone fruit pits, melon rinds, mango pits, and skins. Same things for apples and pears in the fall. I'm all for gnawing on a pit or skin to get that last bit of fruit, but there's only so much one man can handle. Last summer I threw a bunch of cherry pits, each with a bit of fruit attached into a mason jar, covered it with red wine
+
+[22:40] vinegar, and forgot about it in the back of my fridge for a year. I finally cracked the jar open last week. It was delicious on its own and became even better when reduced with sugar into a syrup and drizzled over some good cheese. What do you think about the word drizzled, Nastasia? Fine, I don't mind it. Yeah, David, you got any problem with the word drizzle? No, no problem. You know why you don't, I think I haven't, I think I'm okay with it because it reminds me of everything Snoop Dogg says. Oh, wow. I just think of a spring rain. Yes. Oh, you think of spring rain? I think of Snoop Dogg smoking a giant, like, giant blunt. Yeah. Um, drizzle over some good cheese. Any other ideas for good culinary uses, any risk of extracting too much amygdalin slash
+
+[23:21] cyanide, and that's poison my family. I doubt it unless you're using exclusively, you know, like, I mean, people make peach pit,
+
+[23:28] uh, uh, um, cherry pit, uh, liqueurs and stuff like this. But if you were to crack them and boil them, you probably could, but I wouldn't worry about it. Non-alcoholic ideas are especially what someone, you know, we did a whole thing on that. We've got to search because I had to do some research on it. I think I asked McGee about it. Um, I would get the, to get the book on shrubs and look at, uh, uh, you know, I think
+
+[23:52] Deach is, uh, the author of that, right? Is that how you pronounce it? and because you can make a lot of really good shrubs or flavor fruit vinegars or make your own fruit vinegars with it. Something where you're like, you're going to soak it for a long time. And there are a lot of, like I say, non-alcoholics. So syrups, vinegars, uh, and, you know, shrubs, which are basically syrup vinegars, which you can then use in sodas or to drizzle on cheeses as you desire, but that's
+
+[24:16] going to be, that's the only thing I can um, that's the only thing I can reliably, um, think of. I once made an apple. I once made try to make an applesauce out of just peels, but it was kind of nasty because it was all just like chopped up peel. You know, I'm talking about Stas? I chopped up peel texture. I was like, I'm gonna make a sauce from this. And then I ate it. I was like, you know what, I don't want to do. I want to eat this. Like the texture wasn't right. So I just didn't want to, I didn't want to deal with it. But anyway, I would, I would try that. I think it'll work. Lost peel sessions. Lost peel sessions. But anyone else has a good, Oh, nice. I liked it a lot. If anyone has a good, you know, something for John to do, you know,
+
+[24:55] tweet it on in or do it on the chat rooms. Hey, David, is it true that those chat rooms are only available live when the show is running? No, it's 24-7. But, I mean, nice. All right. People tune in only when the show is. Yeah, all right. Well, but if someone could leave an idea now, and then the next time the show is running, someone could come in and look at it and be like, oh. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, we got a caller? You want to take it? Yeah, sure, call her. on the air. Now he is. Hello? Yeah, hi. I have a question for cooking issues. Nice. Here you are. Mind the air? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, went directly onto the air. Yeah, see? We're slick like that nowadays. No, this is Patrick calling from Brooklyn. I'm falling up about the hands upstate from a few months back. Oh, what happened with them? Well, so at eat hams, they were equalizing. Um, one got attacked by, um, by, uh, Skippers, which I guess is just a euphemism for maggots. Well, yeah, but they're fast. You know what I mean? Like they, they, they, they invade. I mean, like, look, any fly larva as a maggot, right? Yeah, I guess, because it only affected one half . And I'm not sure if because that one didn't cure properly to begin with. Was that one less salty? It was, it was always squishier and it didn't seem to be taking the cure. So I was, I'm wondering if that one somehow, you know, you know, was just rotting flesh that attracted it to begin with.
+
+[26:27] Was it a different color? Was it like PSE or anything? What's that? Was it a, was did you, was the color of it fine? Was it a PSE raw hand to be like pale soft, exudative? Yeah, everything looked okay. You know, this is all new to me. Right. Just sort of did it en masse to try it. I'm not really sure. Okay, so did you consider that one a full loss or were you able to trim it? I tried trimming it, but then I separated it from the other one, and then it seemed to be completely subsumed, and I just, I kind of, at that
+
+[27:02] point, seemed, seemed a full line, so, unfortunately. But I have the other 7 ones intact, and I'm have delayed hanging them to age. They're actually just sort of in in holding, you know, in a fridge for a couple weeks before I get a chance to actually hang them.
+
+[27:22] And I was wondering at this stage, am I, would it make sense to envelop the whole painting
+
+[27:29] place in a mosquito net or something to stop fly? So I don't think that that's going to stop mites, but I just, deserve. I'm now concerned. I'm going to have future losses due to skippers. Well, how old are, like, aren't you, like, uh... It's been a while. You should look at Dr. Norman Marriott's. I've already directed you to that. Dr. Norman Marriott, who used to work at, uh, he's now Emeritus at, um, I think it's Virginia Tech or something. Yeah, yeah, the bag, the bag method. Yeah. So there's, but, you know, aside from that, I think he has relative stuff on the, on the pests, I think, like, I can't remember. My memory doesn't work like it used to, but aren't you past? are you past the skipper, like era and aren't you into kind of Beatles now? Isn't that your big problem? Yeah, yeah. Well, so there seems to be, I have, so I have that. I have the, um, the Fedale Boldra, or however you say his name. Yeah, Fidel Child's book, yeah. And there's very little on skippers, but they all seem to say it affects it in the early stage. So my guess is that this one, with some botch and a tier, in it, it effectively was rotten meat while the other
+
+[28:38] ones, the cure, took effectively and are sort of on the stage where the other pet doesn't are the concern. Right, I think, right, yeah, right now, my guess, right? You're way past equalization, you're into, you know, early summer, and you should
+
+[28:52] be, you should be getting like a decent amount of water loss already. Like, I don't know how much of your green weight you've lost, but, um,
+
+[28:59] I, I think it's probably around 30%. Unfortunately, I wrote the weights on the bags and elsewhere, but then I heard they got so saturated that I lost track of which ham was
+
+[29:11] a witch. So it's not completely accurate. But I think it's around 30. I don't like a high at 20%. Actually, I don't think it's a high 30%. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it's fairly significant. Yeah, if you've lost that much weight, right? again, like, you know, I would just look it up or have someone chime in here. If you lost that much weight already, like that's almost, uh, you know,
+
+[29:33] I, I, it's, again, it's been a long time in the regs, but I think, you know, like most, you know, folks are just aiming around like even 25 for
+
+[29:40] like for moisture content, not for aging, for for saleability. And so I would guess that, you know, you're not going to have like a skipper blowfly problem at this point, but you will have mites and you will have
+
+[29:52] Beatles. Have you smoked them? Are you going to smoke them at all? Not smoke, yeah. I mean, because, like, you know, a lot of times, like just putting like a low, like a low bit of smudge down for a long period, like when they're 1st out in the
+
+[30:05] open like that can get any of that last hackiness off and the bugs won't grow in that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I'm thinking that for the long term aging, it's just going to be in the, because this is loosely
+
+[30:15] the, uh, Paul Patrolley, um, methods. Oh, cooking by hand, old school. by hand. Yeah, books. I mean, it's loosely. So this would be just smearing with a lard rice flour mixture, and maybe adding black pepper, and then having a stock in that. So that's still the plan. I'm just, you know, it's obviously you lose, you're going to lose some of these when you're trying this out, but it's still... sucks to lose one. Right. I mean, look, like I say, like I've hung, uh, not my own. I've never done my own, but I've hung a bunch of people's hands for long, long periods of
+
+[30:53] time and, you know, the only, I've never run into, uh, maggots of any kind in a, in a ham that, you know, that's already lost its weight. I've run into, I've run into uh, having it not cure all the way down to the bone and getting taint along the bone, which is
+
+[31:09] nasty, but the ham is still salvageable. I've had many, many problems with mites. and I've had many problems with Beatles, but, um, never with, um, never with maggots. But you don't want those freaking Beatles, boring holes in your ham at the, at the, at the line between the fat and the, it's just nasty. You just don't want that, you know? before, before sealing it, for the aging, want to just use a blow dryer or something to dry the surface, so the stuff that's been evaporating. I don't know, man. I wouldn't hit it with a blow dryer because you might, you don't want to case harden it any more than it already is. I would. Or even if it's a little, that it's okay to seal because
+
+[31:47] it's, that's, you're creating a permeable coating in that permit. Right. Right. Once you've, once you've lost the amount of weight you want to lose, right, then ceiling, it's going to prevent, like going to at least slow further, um, further moisture
+
+[32:02] loss, and presumably, right, presumably, uh, you know,
+
+[32:07] the moisture level over long periods of time will equilibrate throughout the, throughout the ham, assuming
+
+[32:13] that assuming that, you know, there's not a face section that's open. Once you have an open face section of meat, you're just going to have moisture is constantly going to leave there preferentially to the other areas of
+
+[32:26] the of the ham over by the, you know, where the skin and the fat cap are. And so you're always going to have. And if you've cut into any, you know, American hams that aren't aged or even the Italian ones that are covered, you'll notice that the face section of the ham is like much darker than the rest and
+
+[32:42] drier. Uh, and sometimes can have that back of your mouth, like, like over kind of cured taste, just because it's been dehydrated so much. And so, you know, I think, you know, once you get it down to the moisture loss that you want. And, you know, you can also press up on top on that kind of cushion
+
+[32:59] area and you can see if it's still spongy up there, you know you need to get more moisture
+
+[33:04] loss there, but if it's hard enough on the face section, I would still code it and let it kind of equilibrate over
+
+[33:08] time. That's what I would do. I'm not, like I say, I'm not an expert in the actual functional, I'm an expert in eating hams, right? But in the actual functional making of it, I'm not, but that's my guess from my kind of my reading and dealing with other people's hams over the years, you
+
+[33:23] know? Okay. That's I, you know, like I said, this is going, we should have, didn't want to, wanted to try more than one. So have, have a lot of, a lot of them still to experiment. Do you have a, do you have a quoring device? It's actually going to be in a garage. No, I mean, do you have like a tester, like a coring tester? A what sorry? So like, so like, or you know what, people do is they take like a, like an ice pick, right? And you shove an ice pick. Now you got to, I would sterilize it and whatnot. you know, obviously like, you know, take this, whatever, but like old timers would take an ice pick and shove the ice pick into the ham and then pull it out and smell it.
+
+[34:02] And then they could get an idea of what was going on on the inside of the ham. Yeah, so I mean, I think that that's the plan once they're hanging for a few, you know, legitimately aging for a few more months because
+
+[34:12] it sort of, this process is end up being slightly more prolonged than I thought, of just
+
+[34:17] getting, getting the aging going. So I think that is there any point in doing that till they hang for a few more months? No, unless you're worried that they're spoiling. If you're worried that they're spoiling or that you have taint or that they're not dehydrated enough,
+
+[34:29] you'll get an idea pretty dang quick, you know, based on whether that thing comes out smelling sweet. Now, on the other hand, you are providing an entry for other bad things by doing it. So, you know. Yeah, that's sort of a tradeoff. So I think that the other ones, they seem, they, you know, they, they have the right, they seem to feel okay. You know, that's the sort of, you know, they're not the best clues, but they don't seem to have the problems, the one that got affected did in 1st place. So I think I might want to wait a few months on those. All right. And I, am I, am I permitted to ask a 2nd question or are we on a one? Well, Nastasia... not really, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Am I gonna get kicked off the air then? No, I just, it's a super quick question, is that cast iron an induction. I'm been fooling around just with a fairly cheap induction burner in my apartment because my stove
+
+[35:28] is horrible. And I pretty much get how it works on thin gauge material. But I'm just thinking how to approach cast iron, it sort of was a, with a, with a gas burner, you crank the heat up, but you can wait for minutes for it to get really hot once it had
+
+[35:46] well, you know, you stored heat capacity. How is this different or the same on? when you're cooking with induction with a thick cast iron or any other sort of implement with high heat
+
+[36:00] capacity? That's a good question. So what I would do is this. Induction burners, like, uh, you know, like, uh, I was going to talk last week. I didn't really get a chance to talk about too much about the new the new Breville one, but I've used the inexpensive ones for, you know, a long time. And I would put your cast iron on it, put a dusting of flour on the bottom of the pan and turn it on and then see where the burn marks are.
+
+[36:23] So even if you're cranking a full 1,800 watts into your induction burner out of the wall, you're still only looking at something that's like 12
+
+[36:32] to so. I forget, it's somewhere around 12,000 to 13,000, something like this BTU's equivalent of gas, right? So you're not going to melt your cast iron down, right? Now, some of the cheaper induction burners don't have enough cooling on their electronics, and if you overheat the surface, they'll eventually crap out on you, but I don't think anything dangerous is going to happen. But the truth of the matter, I mean, the fact of the matter is that because it's heating the metal directly, cast iron is not a very fast conductor of
+
+[37:01] heat, the way that aluminum is, right? It just doesn't, so you're going to get a lot of localized hotspots. So with an induction thing, you're probably better
+
+[37:12] off, like kind of, you could wait a long time and then it will equalize, right? Or you can crank it up, like you can crank it up in kind of increments up and then try to get
+
+[37:22] it even. But you'll notice that you can, I've done it. You can kind of very clearly see where the actual induction element is in a cast iron
+
+[37:31] thing just by sprinkling flour down and letting it come up. And I kind of recommend doing that. And then as a 2nd thing, just to get a feel for what's going on, especially because, you know, it's going to depend on the thickness of your cast iron and how wide it is, et cetera, et
+
+[37:44] cetera. Put the cast iron on, put it on like, let's say, medium high for like, I don't know, like 4 or 5 minutes, 5 minutes, let it kind of equalize, and then dust the
+
+[37:54] flour directly on top and see whether you get an even scorching pattern, do it under a hood, or whether or not it,
+
+[37:59] you still get like really black marks around where the element is. And you can get a feel for kind of how, but it heats, the answer is, is that the metal that is actually being heated directly by the induction unit heats very
+
+[38:13] quickly, and then you still have to wait for that heat to transfer out to the other sections.
+
+[38:18] And then once the entire thing is hot, uh, you know, you have to, there's a certain maximum rate at which you can dump heat from the part where the uh, induction units are
+
+[38:29] out, and that's going to determine how hot you can evenly get it. But I'm assuming that once it's really hot, even when it's cranked, eventually
+
+[38:37] it'll even out. But I've never actually run the full test of a full cranked cast iron for long periods. Interesting And you think that, that, with induction, that seems the difference between the saute pan shape and the sauce pan shape. Is that relevant on your with induction since you're not actually the heat isn't going up the sides? Um, well, I mean, those kinds of things are relevant in certain kinds of applications, right?
+
+[39:03] So you're not worried about capturing gas flames that come up out of the sides, but the evaporation patterns will be different. So if you have a lot of liquid in one pan and it goes down, right? You'll, you know, it's like they used to make pan specifically for reducing sauces that they get smaller and smaller as they go down so that you don't get in a situation where when you're trying to reduce something down to a small volume, you all of a sudden have something that's like, you know, like half of a millimeter thick and then it scorches instantly, right?
+
+[39:34] So also the size, the shape of a side of a pan in anything that you're going to move, i.e. hand flip or toss, is obviously crucial. So the sides of your pan still make a difference in kind of what kind of techniques you're using and why
+
+[39:49] you're using what you're using, but they don't make any difference as to kind of heat
+
+[39:54] channeling. Interesting. Well, actually, that's a lie. So like certain, uh, so for instance, uh, heat will transmit differently in a
+
+[40:02] smooth and a smooth uh, wall thing that curves up, then it will if there's a sharp break, right? That's also true. But these are things, but it's not going to be because of uh, because of convective currents of gas going up the sides. It'll be through conduction of metal through, you know, through the metal itself, which will also change with an abrupt bend, I
+
+[40:22] think. you know, you have to test it. Okay. Well, this is, this is, this is, this is super helpful, and thanks for taking 2 questions at all. monopolize any more time. All right, well, you know, come call back in later and let us know how the hams turn out when you test the 1st one. Okay, thanks. All right, cool. Kieran wrote in. I recently bought a pasture raised pig and opted into keeping all the scraps in addition to the meat. As part of this, I was wondering if it's possible to approximate tankatsu broth with just the bones and skin. In my head, I feel like the bones would provide a good amount of flavor while the skin
+
+[40:55] could provide body, but it's all theoretical at this point. Additionally, a while back, you mentioned that there's a good porky and bad porky with regards to the skin. So do you think this would contribute adversely to flavor? Hey, Nastasia. Let them know what, let them, let them know what that giant vat of boiling pork skin smells like. Well, how about beaver tail? Oh my god, beaver tail. A boiling stock pot of beaver tail is like, but a boiling stock pot of
+
+[41:23] like just, just pigskin is like, you're just like, wow, that's a boiling stock pot of pigskin, right? And so like, you know, what we what we would do with all the pigskin was, um, we would take the pigskin, we would boil the crap out of it in
+
+[41:39] in salty water, then pull it out, let it, uh, let it cool because otherwise you can't hold it. It just breaks apart. Then we'd scrape all the fat off, which is also disgusting. Then we would cut it and dehydrate it, uh, and then you deep fry it, that's how you make pork rinds. And the pork rinds were delicious. But anyone that had actually been involved with the boiling and the scraping would have to wait like a week before they wanted to eat the pork rinds because of the stank of
+
+[42:06] the, uh, of the boiling, uh, the boiling, what's
+
+[42:10] it called? The boiling pigskin. And I have to say, a similar thing like with tripe. If you've ever done like a lot of preparing of tripe. And then you have to, at least I have to wait a little bit after I deal with it, then, you know, before I
+
+[42:23] like really want to like tuck into a giant thing of tripe. But similarly to tripe, a really good use for pigskin is the, uh, I'm going to say it like, you know, I guess in Italian. It would be bracciole. But like, you know, as they say, you know, up in Boston, a Brazole. So like when you're making like the tomato sauce, uh, you know, the sundae, the sundae sauce or gravy, as they call it up in uh, up in uh, Boston. Uh, you know, they would typically, they would use actually the meat perch, but, you know, classically, you would add rolled pork skin. So the same way that you do with the meat ones. You lay it out, you put in the herbs and the cheese, uh, and, you know, the salt and the pepper, and you roll it, tie the pork skin up, and then you brown it, and then you throw it into the tomato sauce, and you cook it for hours and hours and hours, and
+
+[43:13] that stuff renders out in the tomato sauce. And something about tomato sauce. It's the same thing with tripe, like tripe and tomato sauce, like, doesn't bother, you know, me, and, um, you know, the pig skin and the tomato sauce. Like maybe it's the acidity. I don't know what it is, but like, I should know, but I don't. But you cook it there. It adds that unctuous character to the sauce, and then you can pull that out, and, you know, after you take the strings off, obviously, you can, you can eat
+
+[43:39] it, along with the other meats that you cook in the, in the Sunday, in the Sunday sauce. So that's one thing to do with it. So you can do your pork rinds with it. You can do that. Your question of whether or not you can do the tonkatsu broth. They're going to pull me off. We should talk a whole thing. Would a pressure cooker. Okay, additionally, this is more of Kieran's port question. Additionally, a while back, you mentioned that there's good porky and bad porky with regards to skin, so do you think it would
+
+[44:03] be contribute adversely to flavor? And then would a pressure cooker be a good option for making a
+
+[44:09] tonkatsu broth? And he points to Kenji's Sirius Eats ramen broth, which is what he hopes to put the pigskin into. I don't know, man. I mean, you could add a little bit because it's there for gelatin, but you kind of want the bones and like other kind of meaty things in
+
+[44:26] there that aren't just straight there. And I want to go actually later into a discussion of bone broths, uh, this,
+
+[44:35] like tonkatsu stuff, which is basically a variation of uh, Chinese kind of emulsified cream
+
+[44:40] stocks, uh, and whatnot. And whether or not it's possible to make it in a pressure cooker because, obviously, Kenji doesn't believe that it is possible to make it an a pressure cooker, but for various reasons, I think that might not be the case, but I don't have time to get into it. I don't have time to get into it today because they're about to pull us off. So I still have not gotten to the chimichurri question, which
+
+[45:02] I'll get to next week, but I have a question from weeks ago that I want to get to really quickly because
+
+[45:07] we got a sad face. We got a sad face on it. hold on second. Yeah, I don't want this. I want a sad face. Oh, yeah. Nice. So Shy wrote in about Burmese tofu and cheese molds. Hello, I sent you this question about 3 weeks ago, but you haven't got to answer it. It's a show ended. It seems like it got lost, sad face. I hope you have the time for it next time. You've spoke in the past about making tofu from peanuts. I've wondered if you've tried using other pulses. From what I've read, most don't have sufficient protein content to form a good curd. Is this correct? That has been my experience. I, you know, on the other hand, people make things that are tofu like, right? I think modernist cuisine, I have to go and look at it again, has a whole section on it, but, you know, someone will tell me whether they do or they don't. But most of these kind of things are more tofu in quotes. So you're making a puree of something or a milk of something. Maybe you add a coagulant, maybe you don't, but then you fundamentally cheat and just
+
+[46:04] set it with Agar. Another thing you can do with these things is supplement the protein strength with
+
+[46:10] transglutaminates, you know, meat glue. But again, I think those are not done traditionally like you would with tofu where you're actually ladling and straining out. The problem with the peanut was that when I strained, it wasn't coherent. It just gummed up my cloth. It was a nightmare. So I don't know whether it's going to be easy for you to make traditional,
+
+[46:31] like you, you, you make the tofu clouds. You, uh, you know, you get some of the water out by pushing the clouds down, and then you ladle the rest through and let it coagulate. You might need to add an adjunct, such as setting with agar in terms of a very soft, you know, kind of custard set, fake tofu or partial fake tofu,
+
+[46:48] uh, or use something like transgutaminates, but hopefully someone will write into me, who listens to this and say that they have done it and give us a procedure that we can uh, do. Also, you say, have you had an experience with Tofu,
+
+[47:03] aka Burmese tofu, not really tofu, since it's made with chickpeas and contains salads, but it seems easier to prepare, and I've wondered how does it compare? I've never made it, but there's also the, it's basically chickpea polenta, not a tofu. And so you cook the heck out of it like a polenta, and then when it cools down, it sets and you can cut it, you can do various things. They also do that. They do a chickpea polenta in southern Italy, which have you ever had that in Stasi? I never had it. No, I don't think I have. I mean, it sounds good, but I don't have a lot. I tried to get in touch with Francis Land, but he's in Malaysia. He wrote an article on it. He says it's good. I've never messed with, though. And finally, I wondered, uh, what might be the result of introducing cheese molds to tofu, like penicillin Rocca 4 deer or whatnot. Will they be able to grow properly and with similar flavors or maybe tofu just won't keep well in the time it takes mold to grow? The answer is it can be done. someone did it in the 70s. They did a blue cheese, but they had to dope the tofu before it was made with
+
+[47:58] non-fat milk solids and milk fat to get the right kind of flavor textures.
+
+[48:04] I think you need to, you could probably do it non-dairy, but I think you need to dope a little
+
+[48:08] more, uh, and maybe different kinds of protein, maybe even cross-linking it might help, and, uh, a little fat needs to go in there. But we could think, think more about that. We got a question on Gravel Axe, we'll get to next time, including Nils's thing on Gravel Ax. Brandenburg wrote in about black garlic, and since this people have been asked a couple times, can
+
+[48:24] I can I do this, David, before we leave, take 20 seconds. Yeah, go for it. I've been trying to track down the details on Johnny Hunter's technique for making black garlic in 3
+
+[48:31] days, but hadn't had any luck searching through the archives. I know we presented it at MoFad's PH delicious event, and that the existence has been of this technique has been acknowledged, but I haven't been able to find it. So Johnny's in and out of cell service, but he sent me this. Put the garlic, not peeled, either single clothes or full heads. Wrap the garlic and foil, then put a damp towel on the bottom of a crock pot, and then a damp towel on top. Put the lid on top of the crock pot, and then wrap the whole thing in a cellophane to keep everything sealed, and put the crock pot on high, around 180 degrees, and go for at least 24
+
+[49:06] hours and maybe more, and what, and you can test it periodically, see what comes out, and what comes out will be black garlic. That's his techniques. We get to the other questions next time on cooking issues.
+
+[49:22] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives.
+
+[0:06] I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. I love getting together with people in the industry. I like hosting my show because to me, it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious.
+
+[0:21] Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling. Please become a member today at heritageradionetwork.org. Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England
+
+[0:39] cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information, visit firesider.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:03] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio
+
+[1:12] Network every Tuesday at roughly what, roughly like what, like 12? Like 12 to 1245, one o'clock, Roberta Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. calling all of your questions today, by the way. Mead related questions. We have a special mead presentation and dump meal related presentation. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, joined, uh, as usual with Nastasia the Hammer. Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah, how's your week been? Good. Fine. So a little later on, your sister, you wanted to tell your sister... My sister's calling in at 1230. She says, and but so Nastasia, for those of you that are regular listeners to the program, I bought her for her birthday, a
+
+[1:58] crock pot, and a copy of dump meals.
+
+[2:03] That's right. Dump, dump meals. And, uh, and so Nastasia can't, she's like, she, after she's like, you know what, Dave, I just can't be bothered. No, my sister has a normal size, a nice, normal size kitchen. I only have one. I bought you a miniature crock pot. But my coffee machine. only have one surface for anything. So anyway. You can make coffee in a crock pot, but I wouldn't recommend it. Oh, weird. And I wouldn't recommend it. So anyway, so go ahead. Anyway, so she's been making dumb meals for the past 4 days. So she, like, like... Breakfast and dinner. She'll talk about it. Natalina, right? She'll say natty. Natty. Lopez is the cooking issues dump meal correspondent. So she's going to be calling now. Now, Nastasi, you said that your sister doesn't necessarily have any sort
+
+[2:48] of, she's not in the food business. No, and she's 22. Yeah, but on my point, my point. She's been eating cafeteria. By the way, she got a boyfriend, you freak shows out there. Got a boyfriend. But if you see any cafeteria food. say your age. It's like, you know, what? No, I'm saying she's so young. Like, she's only been she's only been out of college for a month. Anyways, point being, she has no knowledge. Right. But I'm not going to, like, hopefully she's not listening to this and, like, good, good. Even though she's going to call in. She's at work Where is she working? Hearst. So we're going to get her fired from her 1st job out of college by having her call in and talk about
+
+[3:23] dump meals. Sweet, sweet. Joined in the booth with, remember, we're going with Dave Id, as opposed to me, Dave, how you doing? Good, how you doing? Doing all right. You have a good week? Very good week. excited for some me talk. Oh, yeah, me talk. So our special guest for today. What? What? Who is that? What? Oh, yeah. right there. Oh, yeah, the engineer. Yeah, Dave's over there, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So our special guest today is Raphael from Enlightenment wines. Now Enlightenment wines, say hello. Hi. Hey. So Enlightenment wines. Why don't you tell a little bit about it? actually, you have a tasting room here in Bushwick, but that's not where the actual production happens, right? Well, it will. I've been making the Meads upstate for the last almost 10 years. And now we just opened a production space out off the Jefferson L. So we have a tasting room and we have a beautiful facility for making wine. I did not know this because I'm stupid. The technical term for a, like, a mead maker is... maser. So you are a maser. Right. It's helpful that we don't have to tell people. You make wine because when you say that, I think of grape wine and that's not really what I do.
+
+[4:34] And also it's, you know, when you're a meat maker, you're also an herbalist, you're also a forager. There's a lot to it that's not just in the production space. in the same way like a winemaker often grows the grapes, but, you know, they're not necessarily thought of as farmers. So a meat maker has a similar kind of broader activity. You ever have this happen to you? I mean, you make meat, so you are a maser. So therefore, uh, by the way, uh, Twitter handle is uh, NYMazer at NYMazer, right? Which by the way, I've used about once, and I think it was to contact you. Oh, no. Well, start using it, buddy, you know, especially now that you have to teach me how to use it. seems very popular. Well, I don't know. I'm not necessarily the best at it. We got to find, like, who's a Twitter maniac, Nastasia? You're not. Yeah, we're like social media dunces. Anyway, the point being that this is what happened to me for the past month, right? So you read all these articles from roughly, correct me if I'm wrong, roughly like
+
+[5:29] four, 3 to 4 years ago. So you're looking at like, uh, between 2012 and 2014, everyone says, the meads
+
+[5:37] coming, the meads coming. You have an occasional bottle of meat, usually buy one of the larger producers in some of the wine stores. And then when I finally get around to saying, okay, now the me that I had when I was, you know, young in my 20s was, hmm, garbage, garbage, bad. You know what I mean? Like, in my opinion, I mean, maybe it's the way they wanted it. Maybe they wanted it to taste like it had all sorts of other weird fermentations going on in
+
+[6:02] it and oxidized and messed up and like does not write and like not ferment it out. And I think people were going for too much alcohol. But anyway, my meat experiences have not been the best. Like, a couple of months ago, I was like, this is ridiculous. It's one of the oldest beverages. known, right? People drank it and drink it for since time, literally, since time immemorial, right? And also by pretty much every human culture on earth, right? Yeah, anyone that had access to honey. Yeah, they figured out some way to make meat. So the short answer is just got to be good. That's the, it has to, like, there's literally, there's no way that it can't be good. Something with that kind of a history to it. It's just the ones that I've had recently are bad. And then, you know, I ran into the problem over the past couple of months that now I think a lot of wine stores that maybe started
+
+[6:49] carrying, because I went to some of the places that were on some of those articles from the meat explosion a couple years ago, and a lot of them just aren't carrying anymore. So you want to talk about the current state of meat and like trying to get it carried in wine stores and price points and
+
+[7:01] problems. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot to talk about. I think, uh, well, I mean, part of part of the Enlightenment
+
+[7:11] Wines project is that it's largely self-taught, meaning that, um, you know, I wasn't, uh, I didn't apprentice a winery or I didn't grow up as a craft brewer or anything like
+
+[7:22] that, and then decide to make meat. And that's partly because I wanted to start from scratch and really with very few tools, right? So I did it without electricity, practically, for 5 or 6 years, partially to get back to understanding how it was really made initially.
+
+[7:37] And now, you know, whatever, I started making this stuff in 2000, right? So I've been doing it for a while. Now that I look back and I see the growth of
+
+[7:47] meat and who's making it and why, it's not always been made properly, I think it's pretty obvious. Part of the problem is, 1st of all, you got to think
+
+[7:57] about people with the resources to make it, right? So they're typically brewers, right? So, when you make mead, there's, um, you know, the equipment involved, right? If you come at it with a brewing mentality, there's a bad side to it, which is that it's sterile, you're heating things, you're filtering them, you're doing all this very, you know, brewing is basically pretty high
+
+[8:17] tech compared to winemaking. That's bad. It's good because brewers are used to sort of mixing things together, making alcohol out of it, but that 1st part of the process, especially brewers who are used
+
+[8:29] to, from the last 10 years of trying to make increasingly alcoholic beers, increasingly hopped beers, right?
+
+[8:35] That's the American. Right? So you end up with a very high alcohol wine, which is typically sweet, pretty undrinkable. On the other hand, the people with the real resources, and the knowledge base to make good mead, which are natural winemakers, right? Which are people who are used to barrels, this stuff isn't sterile, it's very low tech, it's very takes a long time, all that kind of stuff. Um, and are used to the fact that every year is going to be different, that there's
+
+[9:02] vintages, they're not trying to produce a Campbell soup can, right? That in that world, in the mentality of the natural winemakers. A lot of the things that are fundamental to making mead, which is adding herbs, adding fruits, mixing things together, specifically adjusting the sugar at the beginning,
+
+[9:22] right? You know, you can decide how much honey you want to start with. at the end of the day. You mix water and you can dilute it, right? Those things are an anathema natural winemakers. So for them, and I'm speaking very generally here, it's a big leap to get into winemaking.
+
+[9:35] So what that's done is left a real hole for, uh,
+
+[9:38] for for the meat industry to have someone sort of step in, who's using natural winemaking practices, but applying it to honey wine and kind of fruit wines, you
+
+[9:49] know. And you could say the same thing about fruit wines also. I mean, if you go upstate, there's lots of wineries that'll sell you, you know, like a dandelion wine, which is like a sugar wine where they waved anilines over it, I think, or
+
+[10:00] something, and you can't taste anything or like a really sweet like cranberry wine. There's nothing actually fermentable in dandelions anyway, really. It just a flavor, a color thing, right? I mean, you have to add a sugar from something else anyhow, right? Right, exactly. So here's a here's our day of the water. Oh, I've always wanted to have a good dandelion wine. I told the story, I think, a couple weeks, I don't know, months ago. My grandpa made a dandelion wine. He was really proud of it, and I was really young and such a dick that I was like, doing a line wine is like, it's some sort of like weird hick Pennsylvania thing you're making me. And you'd be right, actually, because
+
+[10:30] Dandelion wine is what's actually considered like a country wine, right? A farmer's wine. So the history of the dandelion wine is really amazing. And if you look into it, it's really, you're going to find this in herbalism books, right? So like most alcohol made for the, you know, 1st half of humanity, it wasn't really to get you
+
+[10:50] drunk. It was to preserve plants. It was preserve medicinal qualities of plants. So New England farmers, for example, when they come to New England, right? And they're trying to grow stuff. And, you know, they're, for the most part, don't know what they're doing and they don't have any citrus and they all have
+
+[11:05] scurvy. Everyone in New England has scurvy for like 100 years between, you know, January and June pretty much, right? Is that true? Is that actually true? Yeah, because if you're, if you, if you do subsistence agriculture, what, and you don't have access to, and you're not making sauerkraut, right? Which many of them, like if they weren't German, if they're English or something, they're not making sauerkraut, they're just so little vitamin C in the system that, you know, they're eating like grass and stuff in the spring.
+
+[11:30] And so if you have a dandelion wine, which dandelions are incredibly packed with iron and vitamin C and all these kind of
+
+[11:38] things, and it's preserved, the tradition of dandelion wine is that in the early spring, kind
+
+[11:43] of right when you start seeing the dandelions, you take a shot of it after lunch or something.
+
+[11:48] It's a tonic. It's not something you'd like sit around with a snifter. It's a tonic. really medicine. So, uh, and had all these cure all qualities for it, but, you know, really, if you look at it, it's probably just simply that it's like, you know, when you have low levels of scurvy, you start having like, you know, it's vitamin C deficiency.
+
+[12:07] You have like, you get sick, you get colds and stuff. Scurvy, like, but like advanced scurvy styles, you would like it because it's
+
+[12:12] like, it destroys the connected tissues to your body, so your teeth fall out, your old wounds. You get yellow? Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like a tan, but it's wrong color. Sweet. Yeah, so anyway, it's good business. You can try some of it. I would love to. By the way, what's what's the what now, is this a meat base with dandelion in it? or this, you know, I usually end with this, but because it's the most bitter. It's the most complicated... Lake Nastasia. Um, but, uh, there's, um, we can, we can start. you can start with this. This is an aportif. Now, to make this, you have to actually pick up shitload of flowers, right? You can't cheat. So, um, you know, and you have about a week to do it in, right? So the bloom for dandelions is tiny. Like they kind of grow all year, but they're really only around for like a week in a big amount. That makes it efficient. So is the acidity from it strictly because you let a little acetic stuff happen to it or is it? Yeah, I mean, you know, honey wine, you
+
+[13:10] have, like, people think that mead is going to be like a single honey meat, right? I like it. Oh, thank you. It makes it's a great spritz. They use it at PDT for one or 2 of their drinks. Oh, those weasels, they're always on top of everything. What's the bottle price on this? Weasels. Weasels. Who do you distribute? I don't. have to get it from us. Also, they're doing it illegally. No, no, no, we have a license. Oh, we have a license to distribute? Yeah, I'm for winery. So I can sell you a bottle right here. Oh, really? Yeah. strength. Actually, one of the brilliant things about our tasting room is that because we're the
+
+[13:41] 1st people in New York really to really, I think, take advantage of this. So we've got a farm winery license. So in exchange for the restriction of using New York
+
+[13:50] State ingredients, we are allowed the privilege of opening a bar next
+
+[13:55] door, a full, full liquor bar. You know, we can have whatever we want. We can serve whatever we want. But you can go there, you can have a drink, and if you want, you can buy our bottles right out, right to go. So you can like have glass of mead, you can go out, you can have a glass of beer for that matter, or any number of the cocktails that we make with his stuff. But the nice thing is you can buy the bottles right there and go home with them. So now what's the, what's the, the, the liquid base? What's the sugar? It's honey. Okay. So I can feel some of that, that floral hit. smell the honey more than you're going to taste it. How did you get the, how did you get the the acid? Is it just from letting it like a multi-floral thing happen? Right. Well, so for so in typically in a in a dandelion one, you'd actually use a lemon juice. Um, so, you know, in in general, the honey wines,
+
+[14:39] uh, what I was going to say was that like, it's actually very hard to make a meat just from the honey in the water. It doesn't have the tannins, it doesn't have the acids, right? It doesn't have the structure. Also, it doesn't ferment very well, right? Doesn't it stick? Well, if you start with a really heavy ABV and you're trying to make 20%, yeah, you're
+
+[14:54] going to have hard time, but I don't typically have that, but it's, if you, again, if you're using processed honey, which I don't, there's almost no nutrients in it.
+
+[15:00] So, you know, I'm using unfiltered, like, raw honey, it's got pollen in it. It's got B parts in it. You don't like dump urea in like beer makers do, right? No, no, but sometimes what that stuff is? East food? Yeah, I mean, you know, there's all kinds of, I mean, that's a whole other, like yeast nutrients is a whole nother thing. But, um, you know, typically you either need to bring a fruit into it, to bring the acid into the tannins, or you're going to bring some kind of herbs in it, to bring the tannins up. The traditional recipe for dandelion wine requires lemon, lemon juice, which I'm not allowed to use until we can start figuring out how to get the lemons out
+
+[15:36] of the greenhouse. You need an orangery, my friend. Right, exactly. So there is, I discovered in uh, the park in the cemetery, there is a New England, like, uh, orange that will go through the winter. It's this tiny little, it's called a trifolate orange. Oh, yeah. Those grow here? They do. They're used as root stock for other things. Sometimes they grow out and you can see them. nasty, full thorns. It's like full thorns in these old tiny golf ball sized oranges that have no juice. But there's that, there's acid in there. We're working with that. I can use sumac. Sumac's delicious but very highly colored. Yeah, I don't take away the dandelion. I mean, I love Sumac. I use sumac all the time. And it's easy as hell to forish in New York. Yeah, so this has 2 Mac in it. We can try that one next. I love Sumac. Something about Sumac that's just so pleasing. Have you had to pick it and take all the hairs off? Yes. Oh, well, I don't take the hair. I'm typically making like, uh, like, uh, sodas and cocktails, so I don't ever, it doesn't sit a long time, so I just, I just do basically a quick boil, steep
+
+[16:36] strain, spinoff and get really clear. How do you avoid? I had a lot of trouble sumac enough that like we had a fight this summer and we're not work. not hanging out this year because it was just, I was like killing myself because
+
+[16:46] it, I couldn't get the, okay, so I would like multiple wash, rewash the same thing over and over again. And then, but if I cooked it, I would get this sort of green vegetal flavor, which I didn't like. Yeah you have to rip out the centers. Yeah, yeah. like unbelievably touchable. First of all, yeah, people, have you ever never picked? 1st of all, the reason Sumac's not popular, it's incredibly delicious is because people are dumb and they're
+
+[17:09] not, you're not dumb. I'm not calling you dumb, but like people associate Sumac with Poison Sumac. Staghorn Sumac, which is the one that I have growing near me, and there's a couple other different kinds of varieties. Also, it's super variable, right? Flavor-wise, yeah. So when I forge for it, I have to go bush to bush and taste them, and sometimes
+
+[17:27] it don't taste like anything. I found some stuff out in Montauk that had so much acid on it. They were wet from the humidity and white, like white, like cream on them, but hairy. No, it was like, they were literally citric acid crystals on the outside. I mean, it was like kind of like a marijuana, like wet dream, but it wasn't a sumac. sumac. yeah. Susumac, when you harvest it, there's some smoother ones, some harrier ones, but when you, the thing is, it looks nice and friendly and pretty, but when you start picking apart, you get this weird greasy feeling on your
+
+[17:57] hands that I don't know what that's from. And then inside is all this like nasty business. Right, which could have, like, if bugs, whatever. And then the little seedy thing. Not could have does have. Yeah, definitely. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's great if you want to make a cocktail. you want to make a punch. For me, the, you know, when you talk about foraging something, you're talking
+
+[18:16] about like, can I get 50 gallons of it or not, you know? And so part of... It's very strong. very strong acid. In other words, you can make a good amount with, let's say you were to get like a laundry bag full of stuff, which is a pain in the ass. I'm not going to say it's not. did the laundry. But that's a that's a quite a bit of Sumac as an adjunct. Not as a... So this is what I used it for this year. I'm going to go back to hibiscus for it, because I like, it's a little richer of an
+
+[18:41] acid, and... I did a 3 flavor soda once that was all red. It was rose hip, all you call them, New York, rose hip, hibiscus, and sumac bias can't give up sumac. I love it so much. Ooh, listen to that. That's Nastasia's favorite noise in the whole world. This is called, well, this is the Night Eyes. We blew when we opened about a week ago. Oh, congratulations. Oh yeah, thank you. Thank you. And we just blew through this stuff because we started selling it by the bottle and people just hang out with
+
+[19:15] it and it's just getting all crunked out with it. So what's the ABV on this sucker? Uh, like 12. So you're starting with see if I can do my calculation somewhere around 20 breaks or something like that. I don't know. I have a funny story. So I don't use bricks. I use I use a hydrometer. And I probably should use a bricks, but it's kind of like when I was a kid, like my dad went out and bought us all like hockey sticks for, because we had a frozen pond and I didn't know anything about hockey, so we just all got
+
+[19:46] really sticks. What he didn't know is he bought the whole family left-handed sticks. So I learned left-handed and that's just how I play hockey down if I play hockey. So I use a hydrometer for this. If you don't know what a hydrometer is, you should. It's kind of this miracle tool. So like, It measures the density of liquid. I mean, it looks like a thermometer, and as a as a liquid is more thin, it sort of sinks, and then as it becomes more thick because of the sugar, it goes up. It costs about $7. The next best tool you can use to measure like the alcohol or sugar content in your liquid costs like $5000,
+
+[20:22] right? There's like really, literally nothing in between that is useful at all. So I'm a huge fan of these kind of these very simple tools that are very low tech. You can make a hydrometer. And actually, I learned recently that in the old days. Do you know this? What? The old, I don't know about it. you know what the old hygeometer was? Not what? An egg. Well, I know I measure salt brines with eggs. Yeah, so they would use an egg. I've never heard of B people using it for liquor, though. Yeah, no, well, I mean, it's not good for alcohol, but it's good for one thing, which is measuring the sugar content of the initial thing. And they would talk about the circle that the egg made, like whether it was like a half dollar. I mean, it's English, right? So they use pence or whatever, but... Yeah. Yeah. But see, I'm old school refractometer guy. 100%. I just discovered that thing. It's amazing. What's nice about it is it just takes like a drop and you can walk around with juices. One freaking drop. Yeah, it's really good. You know what I used to hate filling tubes up with stuff and it floating. No, no, you're right. No, no, you're totally right. Refact Amor is really cool. The problem is when you're switching back and forth, people who buy refractometers, especially if they don't think about it, they don't think about what it's actually measuring. See, everyone is using a hydrometer. They know they're really, they're just measuring the density. And so when, but what if there's like stuff in there? That's what I understand. That's the thing, right? So, like, you know, what you know, right? like any kind of any brew or wine calculator, you can know your
+
+[21:43] initial, your initial gravity, and you assume that almost all of that initial extra gravity is due to sugars, right?
+
+[21:50] And then, and then when it ferments out, you do the calculation, you do bank. But refractometers don't work that way. You know what I mean? Now, there are people that have calculated final gravity. So by the way, there's, there's, you know, your initial or, you know, original gravity, and then your, what do they call the finished one,
+
+[22:07] the F, I don't know, whatever. And so you take these 2 numbers, and the 2nd gravity is really a bull crap number, right? Because let's say it comes out at, you know, one, which 0000, which is theoretically the density of water. What that really means is you have some alcohol and some sugar, because sugar's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you want more. Yeah, you want more alcohol than obviously. But my point being is that people have tables where they know what your initial amount of sugar is, and then by reading the final gravity of it, you can figure it out.
+
+[22:36] The problems with fractometers aren't measured that way. So refractometer is literally looking and the responses for sugar versus alcohol. I don't know how linear they are over the range you're checking. So literally, you have to have someone who just takes a bricks, which is a particular scale, right, measuring, you know,
+
+[22:55] refraction, because all it's measuring is light bending. And then you have to have someone calibrate the, the, uh, the final alcohol reading based on a particular, uh, um,
+
+[23:06] OG, and that just, you just have to pray it's linear in that range. And if it is, you can use it. You know what I mean? And then there's there's also some weird relationship between the 2 that's not linear. No, you just have to tabulate. I just, you know, I kind of stick with my thing and I kind of know. I mean, to be honest, it's always good advice to stick with your thing. And also your tongue is also your best weapon, right? I mean, that's the, you can taste the sugar at unbelievably tiny amounts. And so at the end of the ferment, I, I, the hydrometer just like gets less and less useful. And then you start tasting it. You just want to make sure it's not stuck before you take it. Right. So like this guy, right? So this is a sparkling line. It's not carbonated. This is made like a pet nap. You know, there's still yeast in the bottom. It's, uh, you know, you basically ferment out dry, then you you add a little bit of honey or sugar back in, and you continue the fermentation in the
+
+[23:55] bottle. If I was really smart or I was like some old French guy had been doing this for 500 years. Like, I would just bottle it when I knew it had the right amount of sugar in it, but because I don't have access to either that like historical tradition
+
+[24:10] of like really knowing that very, you know, when you make the same line every year, you can kind of just taste it. But for me, I have to go dry and then go back for the secondary. All right, let's, we're going to talk about this particular wine a second. We got a call around the arrow. Is it a mead related color? What do we got? What kind of questions we got? Call her, you're on the air. Hi, Dave. Hey. Is this my sister? Hello? Hi. Oh, hi now. Yeah, I thought you got it. Yeah, no, hey, you're on the air. So this is going to be a dump meal. We're taking a meat break. Could you tell me what a dump and your listeners, I guess, what your dump meal is? And I hope it's something, not what I'm thinking it is. Well, as I like to say, all meals end up as dump meals. But the, uh, so uh, so Nastasi, you want to describe the dump meal? want Natty to describe the dump meal? It's well, Natty, describe what you've been making. Okay, so I did 4 different meals with a crockpot, and I basically just threw a bunch of stuff
+
+[25:07] in, but the recipe told me too. It's basically go to the local circle K, buy some stuff, and dump it into a crock pot, walk away from it, come back and eat. That's what dump... This sounds like the winemaking class I want to teach where we go to the dollar store and we come back and we make alcohol out of that stuff.
+
+[25:24] You just dump. I want dump it in a thing, come back in 2 months. Can I say stay away from dollar store bacon? Just stay away from dollar store bacon, especially in your wines. But yeah, dollar dollar store mead making. I think I would pay for that. I mean, a dollar. I'm kidding, that's an idea. So, Natty, what have you been working on? What dump meals have you tried? Um, so I did an oatmeal, which I left an overnight, and that turned out great in the morning. I did ginger teriyaki chicken. Okay, how okay. 1st of all, oatmeal in a crock pot mean, okay, that's going to work. I mean, that's just going to work. That's oatmeal in a crock pot. Now talk to me about the chicken. What cut of chicken did they recommend? Um, they did chicken thighs and chicken legs? Okay, okay, okay. So some props. wasn't some jerk with boneless, skinless breasts. All right, so it wasn't inherent chicken dust you were making. Then what? And then I had to do like a full can of ginger ale and a full bottle of teriyaki sauce and some other
+
+[26:18] things. Wow, this person likes some sugar there, the full can of ginger oil. Let me ask you a question. Did you have to brown that chicken beforehand? Sorry? Did you brown the chicken beforehand? No, I just put it in there. just washed it off. Washed it off? That's our mother's favorite trick. You washed off the chicken? Before I put it in the crock pot. With, what do you mean you washed it off? You wash your chicken? Well, I just wanted to make sure it was clean. Anyways, then I also did its spare rib. Wait, aren't you supposed to wash a chicken? No, you don't wash a chicken. But it's kind of like slimy stuff on it. Well, but then that means you purchased a crab chicken. The, uh, the, uh, the whole thing. Like, sometimes you can wash off if there's like bits of blood and you want to get them up, it's not a freaking fish. You know what I'm saying? with like or you're ripping the bones out of it. It's a freaking chicken. It's already been dredged through like the hell and gone. They've already beaten the crap out of that thing. They put it into a fundamentally a giant, like washing machine made of rubber to rip every dang feather off of it. It's been completely eviscerated and sprayed down. Anyway, okay, hold a second. So wait, so you, this, these thighs and stuff, they had the skin on. But you in no way treated the skin in any shape, form, kind. You literally threw this thing in with ginger ale and teriyaki sauce. So the dump meal lady's idea of browning the skin was to dump teriyaki sauce into it. Am I am I on track here? Matty? What? Like, this lady's idea of browning the skin, the lady who wrote dump meals was to add teriyaki sauce. That was in lieu of browning the skin, right? One sec. hold on. What, referring to the recipe? This sounds like it's a nightmare waiting to happen. I mean, I don't know. Is there any sort of, are you back? Is there any sort of sautéed onion or garlic? anything? What? Is there any sort of sautéed onion or garlic in with this dump chicken? Um, well, there were 2 different chicken instances, and one of them had onions in it. One. What about this 1st one with the ginger ale? Um, the no. So let me get this straight. It's just ginger ale, teriyaki, washed chicken in a
+
+[28:30] crock pot for like 8 hours and nothing else? That's all, oh, and rice at the bottom. Rice at the bottom. And did you add the rice at the very get go? Um, yeah. So that wasn't overcooked at all then. How was it? Tell me how it was, was it delicious? Did you enjoy it? Yes, I did. You did? What was the texture of the rice like? It was really fluffy and nice. It was almost like a risotto. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nastasia, are you gonna let your sister say that it was almost like a risotto? An unstirred crock pot? You need to try it, Dave. Listen, listen, listen, listen. in the teriyaki and the ginger ale, right? What, the chicken? No, the rice. The rice is floating. No, the rice is gonna sink to the bottom, right? Well, it's okay. And it's in a crock pot. It's like everything that you, you know, okay. What about the other chicken that you made, Natty? The shredded chicken, that was just with bell pepper and... Uncooked bell pepper? That one in the crock pot. You throw uncooked bell pepper into with a skin on into a crock pot, okay? Next? And then I think it was just the chicken breast, boneless. Breast, boneless breast for 8 hours. Okay, what liquid did you pour into this? Water? Water? And what else? Nothing else. Wow, how was that? It was good. Oh, and I guess like taco seasoning. Taco seasoning. Let me ask you this. Like, when you picked up the chicken, if you allowed it to cool, when you hit it against a table, would it actually, like, friably shatter? Was it, was it like a chicken leather or did it, like, was the chicken in any sense still juicy at all in any way, shape, kind
+
+[30:07] format or did you, you had to, did you shred it? Yeah, it was easily shreddable. Yeah, she sent me photos. It looked really good. It looked juicy. And then you put in a taco or what? Then you put in a taco, right? A tortilla? Yeah. Yeah. Can't go wrong. Well, why would you ever use breast meat for that? Basically what you're saying, it's just like... The only thing that didn't work were the spare ribs that I had to do. Oh my god. Tell me how to spare ribs. Tell me about the spare ribs. You wanted me to bring a whole can of beer in? Wait, wait, wait, say what? normal can of what? A whole can of beer. Whole can of beer. What beer did you choose? What? What beer did you choose? I did like an IPA, but it's not bad, so I didn't want to do it. And then, um, I think it was like a whole, whole bottle of barbecue sauce too, and it just looked really gross. So I didn't want to do it. But you did it anyway or you didn't taste it? I mean, like I didn't even cook it. It just smells nauseating. Wait, how old is your sister? 22. See, this is the problem with Instagram. They want food to look good. It doesn't always look good. Soups sometimes don't look good. Not bad. Well, you know, but the thing is, is that you didn't give the alcohol time to cook off maybe. Beer-based, beer-based braises, like, for instance, the famous, like, Guinness uh, beef that they uh, that the Irish folk make is good, but not at the get go. You have to. Yeah, that actually does have to cook quite a long time, but the lack, the lack of browning disturbs me. Like in these recipes. It's like, I don't know. Anyway, so listen, are you going to you're going to make some more dump meal. You're going to make some more dump meal for us. you're going to continue to be our dump meal correspondent? Yes. All right. Look at that enthusiast. People call in your questions for like, you know, eventually you're writing your questions for Natty and her and her dump meals. Anything else to add about these dump meals? It really says, don't brown these freaking things before you throw them into the freaking crock pot for real? What about the onions you threw into this other thing? Did it brown the freaking onions beforehand? She's gone. Oh, she's gone. She's gone. She couldn't take the abuse. She couldn't take the abuse. She's not used to it like you are, nostalgia. This browning question 3 times. I can't believe it. Done. Done. Who does? Chat room says no browning and dumb meals. No browning in dump meals. cheating, right? I think there's a joke in there somewhere. All right, so let's talk about, okay, name this wine that we just drank that you're almost sold out of anyway. Can I have a little more of that stuff? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've got 3 more to go through. So Nastasia, I'm sure you can do like this, right? You can keep this. Really? And Nastasia hates almost everything, and I guarantee you know, I know where you like it because it's got some of the same notes that orange wine has in it, right? Well, let me tell you something else. You originally asked the question. I actually did a lecture about this called why you don't drink meat, right? And, you know, the initial question is like, uh, Mead is the fastest
+
+[32:53] growing uh, uh, segment of the alcohol market, right? So that's great for our investors and us. you know, we're like, here we go, let's do it, right? But when we look for allies, and it's very different than the craft beer movement, which I think, you know, kind of came up together because
+
+[33:09] there's so much good craft beer that people want to make. And there's definitely good meat makers out there, and I can recommend some. But part of it is the branding. You know, my, I operated like a kind of a club for about 5 or 6 years. That was most of my mead went to people signed up on an email list. So I got to meet them. I knew who them. You know, they were. One of the nice things about this product is that it's got a really nice gender
+
+[33:33] balance. Men and women tend to like it equally, which is triggers and makers or just drinkers?
+
+[33:37] triggers, triggers. It's got a broad age range. It's got a good gender balance, which isn't necessarily true for beer and hard liquor, right? And one of the problems is that the branding for a lot of mead
+
+[33:52] is, like, based on this, like, really inaccurate mythical Viking axes, the super macho stuff, super hetero, super
+
+[34:00] macho. And I think it really turns off a lot of women who would normally actually like the product. So I think that would be the 3rd, the 3rd kind of leg of the stool of like how not to make mead. What are your thoughts on the upper east side of Manhattan? I've been there. Have you, have you, like, have you ever like, so, like, no offense upright. Oh wait, yeah, we both went to school up there, actually. Oh, no, no, I upper I was on the upper West. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. like, the thing about the upper, I, like, no offense. It's like a generalization, but a lot of people in the Upper East Side is like, honey, so sweet. Honey, so sweet. Right, so, right? I don't want anything with honey. it's sweet How many times in events have you heard people say stuff like that to you, Nastasia? Sugar, but not honey. Sugar and honey. No, you're right. No, you're right. Look, grape wine is made from sweet grapes. Rice wine is made from sweet rice. Honey wine is made. L alcohol starts out sweet. And so the, you know, our biggest challenge is just education. You know, we just have to, that's why we make dry wines. We tell people, listen, this isn't going to be sweet. It's one of the 1st things we talk about. It's why we name the tasting room honeys, because we want to like bring, we didn't want to hide that. We want to be forward about that. It's like, this is a honey-based alcohol, but honey has a lot going for that's not sugar. You know, it's got this great bouquet. It has all this different variability. Um, so try this one. This is like what you know, for lack of a better word, the straight white meat, right? You know, like we're trying to work out, talk about, you know, part of what's exciting about this
+
+[35:30] is we get to create the vocabulary for this product class, right?
+
+[35:35] You know, we're trying to position ourselves as making the best meat in the country. So that gives us a position to say, like, what is it? How do we talk about it? What does it look like? What kind of glasses do you put it in? All that stuff. It's really exciting. Big space, big, big open space. What I have not been able to do is figure out how to talk about the mead that we make that's just the honey wine. Because I don't want to say it's straight, because that's got issues. And I don't want, definitely don't want to call it white, right? Because it's, you know, compared to what? So, but this is, and I don't want to say it's plain, because it's not. Be like, look, is this the Chardonnay of meats? This is the Chardonnay. I think that's all I got to say to people, listen. Who is Anastasia? What are you going to drink? Chotty ups. Remember that? Like, just like, that is the short thing. Okay, so this isn't the bottle. We haven't bought, this is on draft right now at the, at Honey's. So we haven't bottled it yet. I'm going to go upstate and bottle it like in about a week. But this is basically what we're serving on draft. All right, before we taste this. We didn't talk, what's the one with the bubbles called? Okay, so the bubble is, the bubble one is basically, it's a sparkling honey wine with
+
+[36:38] apple cranberry cherry. These are tart cherries from upstate. Little bit, though, right? Only a little, I hope? Yeah, okay. A little bit, and then sumac and rose hips. Rose hips, rose hips are the bomb. Yeah, rose hips are great. So, and then sometimes I alternate the sumac with the hibiscus, which, uh, depending on what's in season and whether or not I'm having issues with sumac. What do you call that one? That's called night eyes. So it's got a, it's got, like, it's almost got a little bit of that, like, not over,
+
+[37:04] it's got a little bit of that kind of orange winey flavor, even though it's not like that. Yeah, because look, this is these are wild yeast. I make this stuff in barrels. It funky. It quite nice. Yeah. So this you're going to taste it more. And what's the ABV on this sucker, roughly? Oh, pretty much across the board. I shoot for about 12, 12 minutes. Good, I like that. Why would why do people want to make these things that require turbos? It's a macho thing. I really think it's like how it's like let's increase the alcohol. I mean, I don't know. Aroma is intensely honey on this, right? Well, that's, that's, you know, it's honey's delicate, right? So you start mixing fruits and stuff, you're going to lose a lot of that, um, a lot of the more subtle features. What I like about this is we ferment this in used oak, which has like a little bit of a red
+
+[37:47] wine, like leftover in the wood. So that comes out, gives it a little body and a little color. No, I like that. What do you think? Sounds good. And you're calling this one straight white? Get that embezzleated. No, no, we call that knot. We call that knot. It's not really like the zero? N-O-U-G-HT. Yeah, exactly. That's our like zero. Have you seen this advertising campaign for, it's called like white. I think it's like the most offensive thing and because like they're printing the F bombs on the street on paper, but it's called white girl roses. It's like everything's offensive about that. What is it? It's offensive marking, is it not? It's by that guy. A terrible man. What terrible man? Bat Jewish. You mean my dad? Wait, who is it? That's the guy's name? He calls himself. what he's called. What about you? Yeah, the fat Jew. Sorry. And he has a, he makes a product called White Girl. I sure he's going to make a billion dollars. Yeah, no, I mean, look, it did. Well, I'm going to plug our spot again because we just opened. We need some folks to come down there and check this stuff out. It's at 93 Scott Avenue. You can go to enlightenmentwines.com. There's addresses on there, and we're open every day, but Monday. What stop is it? Off Jefferson L. You can walk. It's like, you got to cross flushing. And it's nice. You know, it's a great after you go to that hospital. No offense if you're a doctor in that hospital, but 0 my god. You got that hospital on Flushing? Yeah, yeah, we're not that close to that. Oh, yeah. No, no, that's the other direction. No, we're right down here. You could walk from you could walk from Roberta. had an interesting ER visit there once. I've heard crazy stories. The doctor actually was good, but the ER itself was like, yeah, well, welcome to America. So, okay, so I want to make sure you try this because it's just a little bit left. This is a floraleot. just to give you the sense of a progression. So that's basically like our natural honey wine. What's your bottle price in this, by the way, will be. Rough. We do 25 on a pretty much across the board unless it's sparkling or we're just trying to have like a
+
+[39:45] commemorative bottle. So, you know, if it's expensive, I put it in a smaller bottle. That's the deal. But I'd make sure they're all the same height. So, all right, so this one is called Floralia. Now, this is what you do. Now, this is actually, a lot of people think the thing you just had is a classic meat. Like, I want a real meat. I heard you wanted a real meat, right? That's all I know. I never listened to your show. I just... I mean, I don't know. I would. I did know about it, right? Fair fair. Plus, we're usually very technical. Yeah, so the internet, right? But a guy came into the bar and he's like, oh, yeah, I was just listening to Dave Arnold's show and he's like, he just wants a real meat. And I was like, oh, well, you should tell them we're doing this down the street. I mean, it's really close. And I think that people would expect that a real meeting quotes would be this kind of like
+
+[40:31] a single variety honey, right? Because that's a sort of grape wine mentality, right? Like the whole thing about grapevine is, uh, a single grape from a specific location in time who's like carried through to its sort of
+
+[40:42] essence. Um, that doesn't really line up with honey wine making exactly because I would, I really feel like there is a big difference between, say, a wildflower honey and like
+
+[40:54] a apple blossom honey, right? They're different. And when you ferment them out, they'll be they will be different. What about nasty honeys, like buckwheat? Yeah, sure, it'll be subtle. But I didn't want to, but in the real world, in the history of mead making, let's say, and I don't really believe in any kind of real authenticity around any of this, because
+
+[41:10] it's the whole thing's very sort of abstract and vague, but one thing is for sure, it's that the idea that someone would make a
+
+[41:17] mead and it would just be honey is probably unlikely. It doesn't have enough tannin. Uh, even the one that you just had is, um, It's made an oak, right? That's where you get that food. I'm cheating. You gotta cheat. There's somewhere you gotta cheat. What's more likely is they would have made something like this, which is a meat with herbs in it. So there's all kinds of horrible Latin names, which I'm not going to even mention, and I can't pronounce. Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm taking them out of the book. That's all sounds like society for creative anachronism stuff. Right, exactly. Again, it's another one of those things that hurts. Do you do that? Do you have like a harlequin outfit or a cod piece somewhere? No, it's gone. Like it's... I mean, like I burned that last week. I mean, the real the real issue... I like cod pieces, though. is like, you know, the people who, you know, there's a public perception around me that it's
+
+[42:06] it's white and it's European and it comes from Vikings and all this kind of stuff. But the truth is, is like the people who drink meat are Africans and Indians and Chinese people. Currently. Yeah, and have done for, you know, the... Have you gone to Ethiopia to actually drink their stuff? I haven't. We're trying to grow a guest show right now, which is the herb that is required for test, and I can't get it to start. Is there a decent Ethiopian one here in the U.S. or not that I've had? They serve... I know the guy, for example, there's an Ethiopian restaurant in Bushwick that's fantastic. They have a honey wine. I don't love it. It doesn't have Geso in it. So you have to, if you're going to have an Ethiopian honey wine. It needs to have this urban hit or else you're just getting like a kind of another processed meat that says it's made in a traditional Ethiopian style, but it needs the
+
+[42:51] herb. And if the herbs in there, it's got to be on the label. Are there a bunch of strange, like, more southern African meeds as well or no? There are a zillion kinds of meats out there. And there are a zillion other things that people do with it. They distill it. I mean, Jamaica has a whole distilled honey wine culture is super interesting. China. I mean, it's a, uh, in China, you know, also there's a huge, a lot of my influence right now is I'm reading a lot of kind of, uh,
+
+[43:15] Asian, uh, books because there they use wine, uh, like to preserve the herbs in a way that we don't do in the European culture so much.
+
+[43:24] So, like chrysanthemum wine or chamomile chrysanthemum wine. Right. Our wines are mainly they've been taken out of the wine category, like vermouth. So going back into sipping situations. Well, this thing this thing happened when they invented the FDA, which is that they they made it basically illegal to have any medical claims on any kind of alcohol,
+
+[43:43] right? So, ironically, the the, like the Los Angeles winery that survived through prohibition, did so by making medicinal products, and then people just drink them to get drunk.
+
+[43:54] But like, I make an elderberry wine. Elderberry is like incredible immune supporting, antiviral thing, and it will work if you drink the wine, but I'm not allowed to say that. I can't put it on the label. I can't even talk about it. But so, for example, this one, just to get back. This is, I think, something more like a meat that you would have had in the old days. So this is... And just call it what? Floralia. And it's just an herbal mead. you could pick different herbs. This is forged juniper, lavender, and marjoram. Oh, it's lavender's coming out, huh? Hey, Mark, we had someone on Twitter who was like marjoram. And they were like, it's useless. marjam's delicious. Fresh marjam. Can't use it, try it. Why would you dry it? I don't know. People dry oregano. Uh, so this is, you can drink this straight, uh, but it's a great cocktail base. So, you know, this, instead of, like, instead of a, so you would use this in place of like a Dolan Blanc or in place of like a cookie Americano or something like this.
+
+[44:50] Well, I, I, this is where I should probably introduce my partner, Arly Mark, so I think he's met you. He said he did a stage with you at some point, but he's running the cocktail program in the front of the house. So he takes some of these things and then we'll make these kind of wonderful cocktails. This, uh, I forget what he's doing like a flip with this right now, which I had to teach me what that was. But it drinks, it drinks like, um, it's like a honey vermouth. Yeah, exactly. It's a fair like place to place it. Vermouth tends to be a little bit more alcoholic. Um, I'm starting to make things more specifically for cocktails because there's so much opportunity to like do all this weird stuff, right? And so typically we'll take something like this or the black currant wine, which is, I think, the last one here, which you can try. Uh, and we'll serve them straight, like in a, you know, small poor. or over the ice or something, or you can like, this one makes a really beautiful Negroni. If you want to, like, do a named kind of classic. And that's what we've been making down there. And then we also have this really nice herb program for the roof. that's, like, a lot of the exotic herbs that I'm experimenting with for the meads, because we really have to broaden our
+
+[45:57] appeal. We use in the cocktails too. So since they're around. So, like, there's a lemon mint marjoram that I'm really, not marigold, sorry. lemon mint marigold that they'll use for a... What are your thoughts on herbs that are like now considered toxic in large quantities, but like people still
+
+[46:15] used them in the day like rue or what's tansies and all these other things? Yeah, elderberry. Uh, you know, it's the, the, toxic is such a like, difficult, unspecific word. You know, like our relationship, right? You know, you know what's, you know what's toxic? Alcohol is toxic, you know, and you drink that all the time. I, I think a lot of these herbs, um, you know, you'd have to use huge amounts of them before you got
+
+[46:41] ill, in many cases, if you heat them, toxins go away, it's a little tricky with the
+
+[46:48] alcohol because I have to get federal, uh, permission basically for everything that I use. So there's a list of generally recognized as safe, right? But that list itself includes, was created in the 40s and is horrible. Like, it's, like, you can put Penny Royal. Penny Royal is an abortive and really, like, very toxic, right? You know, used by herbalists very carefully. Fantastic name. Penny Royal. Yeah, you can pour that in there. So, like, that's considered generally recognized safe. is not on the list. Spice Bush, you can't. Lindera Benzolin, not grass. I don't use it at the bar. Right. So I'm pretty suspicious of that list in general. It's not an accurate list. It was made a long time ago. And for example, something like Elderberry, which is on the list in some
+
+[47:29] cases. It's like, it really depends on how you use it if you're using the stems, the berries or whatever. There's a really great article in the Nordic food labs about elderberry, where they really try and tease apart the chemistry of that. Yeah, I know this guy, so good. They have a really good actual science person, Ariel doing a lot of their, a lot of their stuff. Okay, while we're opening this last one, let me give you some shout outs. Brian Kestenbaum. I was like, I'm going to read this. I'm gonna read. You're gonna read what I'm gonna read here. Okay. All right. Uh, where is it? This is from Allison for Brian, right? Unusual request. My husband Brian is a fan of cooking issues and listens all the time, turning 40 on July the
+
+[48:14] 14th, and I'm Bastille Day, huh? Well, you got to share it with the French. Why do you got to share your birthday with the French? Makes no sense. And it's not like in his birthday shifts every year to coincide with the French stuff. No good. No, I mean, that's not saying saying it's no good, whatever. I'm collecting video slash sound recordings, photos from his favorite places and people around the world. Any chance they be able to give him a shout out on the show or send some sound recording that I can add to the collection? Just do it. What should I say? It's turning 40. Happy 40th birthday, Brad. From Cooking Issues Crew. And Jackie Molecules would say hi if he was here, but he's off on tour in Europe thinking about your 40th birthday. What do you say, Nastasia? Happy birthday. There you go. Happy birthday, Brian. Wait, how many people listen to this show? I don't know. A lot. Are they all over the place? Everyone. That's so exciting. Hi, everyone. Hello, the world. All right, so let's get back to this. The rest of the questions that I would have asked, I'll have to do... You can just do
+
+[49:17] them, like, really fast. No, I wish I can't, I can't, I can't, never. But let's taste this last one. This last one. So this is the St. Crimson, which is
+
+[49:27] just a this is a kind of a classic black currant meat, which has been made for a long time. That is a kind of classic. But I don't know how much... Does he drink like a... So that is also drier than I thought was going to do. They're all dry. Yeah, there's no sugar. I don't like using sulfites and filtering and all that stuff. So, really the only way to bottle something and not use them is to just get rid of all the sugar.
+
+[49:52] I could dope this with some gain and carbonate the hell out of it. Yeah, be very good. There's a lot that you can do with this. It's a great thing. Although, Jim from PDT was telling me, because when I made this for him a few years ago, I was like, he's
+
+[50:04] going to love this. is going to be great for a cocktail, but I think you can get a black currant flavor out of the distilled version at a cheaper
+
+[50:09] price. If you just want that. But this looks nicer. Also, this has that, um, you know, everyone's into that change in color sweet pea thing these days, but this? Butterfly pea? Yeah, this in the blue one people. Hey, man, we've been on that, we've been on that pregame train. Woo-hoo. So those, those, uh, who's using that? I don't know, there's an article of paper again. Which article? Which paper? I don't know. I didn't read. Do they still make papers? The big one. Times? Probably. Well, anyway, what's fun about this in the elderberries? You know what? You know what the butterfly pee is actually called? You know, butterfly is the euphemism for female parts. Yeah, the scientific name for that plant is a lady body part. It's not... Yeah, that's not a bad word. Not a bad word. I know. But why then why call it butterfly? Why call it butterfly? why can't you say it? Because I don't know exactly how it's spelled in Latin. Methiglium. Yeah, anyway, you can change the color of this too. It's also super acid-based sensitive. So it'll go blue or red. Yeah, the problem is I'm always going to keep an acid in a cocktail. Like someone who serves you a basic cocktail should get beaten about the head. I'll tell you this. If you want to stabilize blue or colors in cocktails, do a pre-shake before you add the acid with egg white, which is basic.
+
+[51:29] And I found that for some reason, even when you shift the cocktail acidic afterwards, you'll maintain more of the bluer side of
+
+[51:37] anthocyanins than you would. What about like a gelatin? Is that also basic enough? No, no. No. Because I want to get this in one of those frosty machines. But you want it to be on the bluer side, not less on the red side? You know, I just like them. I just like that it changes colors. You know, it just, I just, it's just cute, you know? I mean, the classic thing to do that it doesn't taste so so bueno. So I used to do this, uh, with the butterfly tea, we were going to do an absinthe service where we were going to
+
+[52:04] do like, uh, um, a pandan water. And then we were going to keep that one neutral. So be on the blue side and then drop it into acidulated
+
+[52:15] alcohol and then it would go red as it hits the alcohol, right? In a drip, in an absinthe trip. Turns out that A, it didn't have any flavor. So at least the one I had. So I was like, I can't just do a visual gimmick. This is crap. what I'm about. And two, bars are dark. And so, like, this is more of a cafe, brunch timey, outside thing. You know what I mean? So I've done the color change. You know what's really stable with those colors is whipped cream. So, like, I've done really, really, with a lot of the flour, dark, dark blue whipped creams that
+
+[52:52] are, like, those things I heavily stabilize them with, um, actually, the flour itself will stabilize it because it's got,
+
+[52:58] like, if you just blend the flour and don't get rid of all the solids, It's got enough kind of solidity there, but you could also do like an agar fluid gel or something to get it to get it to go. Um, huh. So I didn't get to any of my normal tech related questions, but I feel I had one. I had someone ask me some interesting questions about spoilage in sous vide bags. There's also a question on flavors melding together, which would have been good, but I'm going to try to get Harold McGee to write
+
+[53:22] in, call in on that. He's still in Spain being Harold McGee in Spain because he's the master. He's been working on that for, you know. Oh, well, I have a question for him. All right, what's your question? I don't know why, but every winemaker will guarantee tell you this, that when you take the wine out of the barrel, and you put it in the bottle, it tastes like shit for like however long it feels like doing that for like at least 2 or 3 weeks, even if it tasted good in the
+
+[53:45] barrel, and then it'll come back. Huh. And it's like it's getting used to the new container. absorbing whatever oxygen got hit in the eulage. I don't know. makes no sense to me. By the way, before I go, questions for people. So like, so what's your average fermentation time? It's temperature dependent. Yeah, sure, but like, what's the show? Everything you're drinking here is about a year. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, I could probably push it to 6 months. That's for, like, but like, is there, do you, is it like, is it like a primary secondary situation? Do you have to rack off the at least? Iraq, yeah. I mean it's just like making wine. You just, it does its thing. You rack it if you feel like racking it. So closer to wine than to beer. It's almost 100%. You know what's ferments really freaking quickly, like beer speeds? Orange juice. Yeah, but doesn't I can make this ferment quickly. I mean, it tastes good. No, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Orange juice, like on a fat. I don't know why, but it's just like, I don't pitch. I don't do a hard pitch. I'm keeping it at like 55. putting sugar in it? I take it to, well, I want the alcohol. I take so sugar. No, but I mean, do you add additional sugar in the beginning? Yeah, yeah. So, like, actually, the 1st batch, I'm on my 2nd batch. The 1st batch, I did white sugar to get it to about 15.5 bricks because I wanted about 8% alcohol. And so like orange juice by itself would be... Yeah, because it's like 11.8% sugar and it just wasn't going to be stable enough for me. And so anyway, so I wanted it closer to 8%. So I added enough to get it up to 15 bricks, and this next batch I did, and it fermented out. It did its primary in like a week. But what temperature? In a wine cooler, 55. Oh, cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I started it at set at 70 on the counter until it started going. And I, yeah, and it was oxygen starved. I put an airlock on it from the get go, like not even open. Like, and then I threw it in the in a wine cooler and it still finished. It was monster fast. I don't know why. And I was pitching at the normal pitch rates. You know what I mean? Do you know what kind of used you were using? I mean, you would hate it. Yeah, yeah, same. I used I don't always use natural yeast. But it's relatively neutral. The yeast I was using is relatively neutral. Yeah, no, I mean, I did honey this time to take it up to 15, though. That's better. Yeah, woman is better. What? One minute. Oh, right. Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna invite everybody to come by. If you come by and I'm there, I'll give you guys a tour. And I'd love to see you down there sometime. Really nice. All right. Well, Raphael from Enlightenment. wines and given the address again. Our tasting room is called Honeys, and it's at 93 Scott Avenue. on the other side of Flushing from the L Train. Opens at five, right? Yeah, 5 tonight and until nighttime. We open late. All right, well, now I can say that and I, we have pictures. Can I wait? Oh, and I would like a few more Instagram followers, Frank, frankly, I think I have a very nice Instagram. All right. Also, NY Maser? No, no, Enlightenment wines. Enlightened wines. All right, enlightenment wines. I can now say that I've had mead that I enjoy Nastasia. Oh, thank you. All right, very good. Thanks for coming on. Cooking issues.
+
+[56:54] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Hi, this is Marion Nessel. I'm the poet Goddard professor of Nutrition Food Studies and Public Health at New York University, and a longtime fan of Heritage Radio. Like Marion, you too can support Heritage Radio Network, a member based nonprofit radio station operating out of
+
+[0:17] Bushwick, Brooklyn. I've been on it countless times. I love being interviewed. The interviewers are always really well prepared. and fun to talk to about the issues that mattered to me the most, about how we can change our food system to one that's healthier for people
+
+[0:35] and the environment. It's just invaluable to have an independent radio station that's dealing with these issues. I think it's the wonderful, wonderful asset. Support Heritage radio network by becoming a member today. Go to heritageradionetwork.org and click on the beating heart to donate. Today's program is brought to you by MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink. For more information, visit mofad.org. I'm Linda Pelacio, host of a Taste of the Past. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadioNetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:24] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. It just coming to you live, every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 1245 or one-ish on the Heritage Rider Network from Robina's
+
+[1:37] Pizzeria in where's Roberto's Pizzeria Nastasia? Bush, where? Brooklyn. Where? Brooklyn. Morning, Nastasia. Good morning. How you doing? It's not morning. Also, we've been speaking since like 745. Yeah, but do people who are listening to this know that? No, they're listening to it at like midnight somewhere in somewhere else. They don't know what you've been doing. They don't know your life. This is a constant radio mistake you make. I feel like they like knowing about our life. Yes, but with context. Like, like, like, imagine this. You'd want to talk about the center. imagine this. Imagine this. Yeah, we could bring it up that way simply. Oh my god, can you believe what happened earlier? Oh, and that's all we say. No, because when I say that, then you're prompted to say, well, we've been up since that early because we've been talking about the centrifuge, which you should all know and
+
+[2:22] like. How do you pronounce the way your man Trump said, I don't know. China on the phone with China. Yeah, in fact, that is true. We did a... After work, their time before our work. See, then when you're, when you're, when you're building something that's 12 hours time zone away, you have to kind of arrange your
+
+[2:40] calls either, like early in the morning or like late at night, there's no, I guess that's not
+
+[2:46] true. They could arrange it, so it's early in the morning or late at night for them. Yeah. Instead, we organize this so it's either early in the morning or late for us. You get better late at night. Anyway, this is, again, people don't care, but we are working on the centrifuge. I had to tweet in earlier asking for updates, et cetera, et cetera. The updates are that, uh, We... Look, we've had a working prototype for some months now, but
+
+[3:12] we're not going to officially release anything until or give a date until we are sure that we have the future production kinks pretty ironed out, right,
+
+[3:24] Nastasia? But we're still planning on doing a pre-order. It's still going to be under a $1000. You will get a pre-order discount that's still our plan. And we hope to have it on pre-order somewhere between 3 and 5 months before the actual delivery date.
+
+[3:44] And we might have a tiered early bird system where the early, early birds get it for less than the later early birds, et cetera, et cetera. right Is that our current plan? Okay. Or something like this. It's like similar to that. We not committing anything. Belly bird, definitely. Yeah, whether there's levels of early bird, we don't know, but the issue is, is we're going to go on pre-sales and you're going to get a discount because you're buying it before it comes
+
+[4:04] out, and what that's going to do is there's a substantial amount of tooling that we need to make to get it
+
+[4:10] made, and we don't have the cash to front it. So the pre-orders are basically going to go towards the tooling to get it produced. As for the specs, the specs are going to be that it is, it's going to hold 500 milliliters at a time of liquid or oil or whatever, but it's going to have the ability with a built-in pump to pump liquid through the
+
+[4:36] rotor, such that you can do more than 500 milliliters. at a time. So the most I've ever done. And it depends on the solid content, et cetera, et cetera. But the most I've ever done in one shot is 5 gallons. But obviously that has, you know, not that many solids in it. I did 5 gallons of cider. I filtered 5 gallons of cider with it. Anyway, we're pretty excited about it. The whole thing is going to be smaller, uh, well, it's about a little bit bigger than a Cuisinart, wouldn't you say, Nastasia? Food processor, yeah. Yeah, a little bit bigger than a cuisin art food processor. much smaller than like a KitchenAid mixer, right? Easily fits under counter, uh, easy to lift around, move around, et cetera, et cetera. You buy them like potato chips. You're not even going to want one. You're going to want two. You gotta want three. Am I right, Nastasia? Oh, our goal is to put in anybody. They ask us, my partners, they ask us, how do you know how many people are gonna buy it? I said, well, this is how many modernist cuisines sold. We had a number a while ago, but I don't know what it is now. Uh, and We figure if someone's willing to shell out $500 for a book, a lot of these people don't already have the centrifuge, they're going to be willing to shell out less
+
+[5:44] than, less than. We don't know what the final number is going to be, but less than a 1000 bucks, hopefully as low as we can go, right?
+
+[5:50] So we're going to price it as low as we can. But less than a 1000 bucks to be able to do some of those tricks. And we can do most of the tricks that you can do from modernist cuisine. We've tested peea butter, for instance, all these kinds of things. The recipes are different because I'll go more into depth later, but I have to rewrite some of my recipes to get them to work in a smaller
+
+[6:11] centerfuge, but that's part of the work that I've been doing is figuring it out. And if anyone really cares, they can ask me to do an ABC is a centrifugation on error later in terms of the actual science and math behind it. I don't think that much people care. blog post. No, but I never really talked about... I mean, there's a, there's a, There's a number of factors in a centrifuge. We run into the same problems that people run into with things like induction burners, right? They compare watts of an induction burner with BTUs in a gas stove, and nobody really knows how to compare them. So comparing, for instance, something that acts more like a fixed angle centrifuge versus a swinging bucket. The 2 main kinds of centrifuge that people deal are called fixed angle. Obviously, what that means is that the liquids are held at a fixed angle in the rotor, as it spins, and the other
+
+[7:03] kind's called swinging bucket, where the products are in buckets that, as you might guess, swing out, when you open it, when you turn it
+
+[7:11] on, rather, and that's how they work. They have the 2 different kinds of rotors have different characteristics. Primarily based on the fact that having an angle helps with certain kinds of pelleting, i.e. getting solids to deposit and stay solid at the bottom of a rotor, and also fixed angle rotors
+
+[7:29] definitely usually the cloudy bits have a shorter distance to travel before they
+
+[7:35] hit the bottom of the tube. So fixed angle rotors act differently from swinging bucket rotors, but usually swinging bucket rotors have a much larger capacity than a fixed angle rotor, albeit at a slower
+
+[7:45] RPM. So, this kind of, this centerfuge kind of, uh, tries to bridge the gap between those
+
+[7:51] two, so it works. Uh, it works at a considerably lower G-force, then the uh, then the equivalent swingy bucket wood. Also, uh, you know, the centerfuge, like how well something, a centerfuge separates solids out is based on a variety of factors that are, um, inherent in the product itself.
+
+[8:11] So the viscosity, which we work on with, uh, uh, like enzymes, like Pecnex, ultra SPL, but also out in the speed of the rotor, which is something I can't change too much.
+
+[8:21] But the other and the diameter, obviously, they work in tandem because that's where the force comes from. But the big one, the important one that you get to manipulate is particle size. So the, um, the speed at which you set the sediment stuff out goes linearly as the force is increased.
+
+[8:39] It goes linearly as the viscosity decreases, but it goes by the square of the particle size.
+
+[8:50] So you what you really wanted, and also the density difference between the solids and the and the liquids. But so a lot of my recipes to get the smaller centrifuchs to work like a big guy, it has to do with increasing the particle size.
+
+[9:01] So I already went through and went through it. If anyone didn't understand that, which I'm sure is 100% of people because I wasn't very clear, then you can ask me to explain it later at a later date. Be like, what the hell did that guy say about particle size? Like, the truth of the matter is, is that a lot of the recipes that I use in, uh, liquid intelligence for things like lime
+
+[9:20] juice, to centrifuge lime juice out. lime juice is more difficult to centrifuge than other things because the enzymes don't fully break everything down because of the extreme acidity in lime juice.
+
+[9:30] And the way that I make that work in a centrifuge. Regular, you know, the benchtop 3 liter centrifuge that I use at the bar, is wine finding agents. And what those wine finding agents do is they make the particles agglomerate together, they become bigger, as those particles become bigger, it becomes, as I said, you know, by the square, easier to filter them out or smash them to the bottom of the centrifuge
+
+[9:56] buckets. And so, uh, I do that trick with this centrifuge and I can centrifuge basically anything so far. You know, a few things aren't as good as the big guy, but pretty much the results have been good, right? St us? It's just a matter of making sure they're consistent so that when it shows up at your house or at your bar, you are safe and happy. right? Those are the 2 main things we want you to be in that order. Safe, happy. Yeah? Anyways. So, we'll give you updates as we know them. But, like, if it doesn't go on, we look, we're still hoping to deliver it. This calendar, if not early next calendar, but I don't want to promise anything, but if we don't pre-order, by the end of this year, I think we're in some serious trouble anyway. So expect that to happen. Right? Is your sister, by the way, still on dump meals or no? Did she do any? I haven't asked her. But she said she was going to keep on. We got some every other week, she'll call it. Every other week we call in, so we didn't frighten her away. Did you explain to her that I realized that she didn't write the dump meals and therefore she shouldn't feel bad about me insulting the dump meals? We had a caller. We had a question about the dump meals. Maybe I'll hit that one first, even though we're way behind. Another thing. Remind me after we come out of break mozzarella. Alright. You cook anything interesting, by the way, over the week? No. No? What did you do this? Oh, you went to a wedding. How was the food at the wedding? Good. Come on, really? Good for a wedding or good? Just because they had like a whole pig in a raw bar. They went all out. Oh, how's the whole pig? Good, good. I'm trying to look at AC. What I'm doing for you people is I'm reading Nastasia's face and I actually saw that she enjoyed it. How was the skin? Was it chewy or crunchy? Crunchy. Really? I love a crunchy skin. I love a crunchy skin of how big was a pig? Not like that big. Oh, how many people at the wedding? Three? Who is she doing? That was just the appetizer hour. Oh, no, she's showing a pig. It's like maybe 2 feet long. And anyone there who's cooked a pig nose that until the pigs get like longer than that, it's all like bones anyway. There's these skinny little mothers that, you know, pigs, baby, pigs, and that there's not a lot of meat on them, right? Right. Good news is, is that they're fairly, uh, I don't think the little guys dry out as easily, right? So it wasn't as dry? No. A lot of fat coming out of the skin. Did you eat the ear? No. Who at the wedding? There's always one. Who at the wedding? Nobody. come on. Dave, it was like one part of like 16 pieces that are happy at the cocktail. There was no one like me there who walked up, ripped off the ear, started eating. Yeah, you know what? I've said this before, Nastasia. You better get yourself some new friends. You need new friends. Uh, Anyway, let me find this, uh, let me find this thing we had. Judy from Malden writes in. This is regarding dunk meals. Couldn't help but pause to jot down a note while listening to you, shout down, dunk meals. It is true. I got mighty angry over the over the dumb meals. I did. You don't have to trust my opinion, though, since I don't mind wraps. Ooh. She goes on to say, yes, it's essentially edible cardboard, but I can't help myself if I don't want all the bulk of the bread. Here's key. is why I know I can trust her. I may be a garbage individual. But I'll call or wrap a sandwich. Now, see, I have infinite respect for someone who comes out. Can I say it to myself all the time? I may be a garbage individual. But... Props. Props. All right? Major respect. I got a lot of love from Malden right now. Uh, I know you guys feel that maybe America's Test Kitchen, which is, you know, you know, America's Test
+
+[13:38] Kitchen, affiliate, yeah. Uh, can be a little tone deaf at times, and it's true, but I've spent 7 years reading cookbooks, cover to cover, and cooking mostly dishes that
+
+[13:47] makes sense when only one person is eating 98% of the
+
+[13:51] time, uh, and you have no access to outdoor cooking. So those are the things. Cooking for yourself a lot of the time and no access to the outdoors, okay? Okay. So I've cooked my way through America's Test Kitchen, slow cooker, cookbook, which I get you is their answer to dump meals. And certainly not all the dishes are winners, but some dishes, like shredded barbecue chicken, that is literally chicken and a
+
+[14:15] slightly, slightly dogged, uh, uh, but some dishes, like a shredded barbecue chicken, is literally chicken and slightly doctored with, uh, barbecue sauce, talk about a dump meal. But in other words, like she's saying, a lot of them aren't winners. A lot of them that she's saying, I guess, blow. But, uh, I kind of really want to send you guys a copy because she says something interesting. Uh, the mailing address, which we'll send, it starts, you can send it to me. Okay. I'm sure Dave will do a look inside on Amazon. I didn't get a chance this morning because, as I said, normally the time when I would be looking inside that for you to make comments. Nastasi and I were talking to the factory in China. Anyway, I'm sure Dave will do a look inside, but here's another important paragraph.
+
+[14:55] The 1st lesson was that most slow cooker recipes are mediocre at best. Best because most of the time, one cannot simply dump a bunch of ingredients into a slow cooker and walk away.
+
+[15:03] true. Obviously, that's why I was yelling at your sister about not browning the meat beforehand because that's garbage. One needs to develop flavor using a host of mostly new and interesting techniques that are contained in the book.
+
+[15:13] So apparently America's Test Kitchen has a bunch of new techniques that allow you to just dump a bunch of crap into the slow cooker and
+
+[15:19] get a good result. Um, microwave, spices 1st and aromatics, tomato paste, et cetera, et cetera. Part cooking, hearty vegetables in a microwave, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, so we'll take a look at it. And, and, you know, and it says, obviously, soy sauce and tomato paste were secret weapons for building flavor as I yelled at your sister for the teriyaki sauce. But we'll try it. We'll try it. Uh, so if you send us that, uh, Judy, we'll take a look at it and see, right? I like a response. And next week, we will have Nastasia's sister, the correspondent coming in with her dunk meal. No, she's going to call in again. That's her name, calling with her dumb meal. And hopefully, Nastasia, you can warn her a little bit beforehand. think she has now. like that I'm gonna have some violent reactions. Towards some of this stuff. I know last week we covered the shy's question on Burmese tofu, right? The chickpea polenta. I thought we got to nothing. I thought we covered it. Okay. I wanted to call, remember I wanted to call Francis Lamb, but I couldn't get in touch with him. But we talked about it, right? I think that was when I was driving. Yeah, you talked about it. All right, talk about it. So anyway, so if shy, if I didn't get to your question on the Burmese tofu, which
+
+[16:32] is essentially not tofu, it's essentially a chickpea polenta, right? And again, I've never tried it, but there's also Italian variants of chickpea polenta called
+
+[16:39] panella. I haven't tried those either either, but I'm sure it works. But it's definitely not a tofu style thing. It's much more like a polenta, but it sounds delicious. I've never had it. Uh, you also had a question on, um, using molds that I'm not sure to make tofu ripen like cheese. And usually the cheeses that are, the molds that are used for fermented tofu aren't classic Western cheese molds, but they have run tests with like
+
+[17:05] penicillin rogue 40, but they've bolstered. The problem is, is that a lot of those flavors in cheeses are fat breakdown
+
+[17:12] products. So in general, they have to dope the tofu with fats 1st and sometimes
+
+[17:18] they do with milk solids as well, which kind of defeats the purpose. But they'll dope the tofu with fat, such that, um, the molds can uh, make similar uh,
+
+[17:27] fat, uh, fat breakdown, um, you know, lipace style flavors that you would get from cheese, but it has been tested, I think, in the 70s. I don't know anyone that does commercial stuff. Uh, shirt leaf, uh, in his uh, in his his wife, who I can never pronounce her name. They have all the soy books. And if you look online, they have an exhaustive search of the literature, bibliography on cheeses, a
+
+[17:51] tofu inoculated with different molds. So I go check on that. And Shai, if I didn't get to your actual question, accurately, just send back again. I know it's taken forever. I feel bad about it. I feel bad about it, right, Nastasia? I mean, we've had a bunch of weeks where we've had a bunch of crap going on. Chris, did I get the Chris's Gravlocks question? I don't think so. Okay. Called in a long time ago. I have made Gravlock, secured Scandinavian salmon a few times before, but have now been asked to make it for my sister's wedding, which hopefully didn't already
+
+[18:20] happen. You know, otherwise we're host. I'm concerned that I'm producing something that is safe to eat and would like to know about the principles which make it safe to
+
+[18:28] eat. The procedure for curing fish is to prepare a mixture of salt, sugar, black
+
+[18:33] pepper, and dill. Sources very quite a bit in the ratio of these ingredients, and also in the ratio of curry mixture to the massive fish being cured. Spread it over longitudinally sliced salmon fillets with the skin on, place the 2
+
+[18:45] fillets together, and wrap in cling film, and cure in the fridge for about 48 hours, flipping every now and again, which by the way, I emailed
+
+[18:52] Nils, and that's pretty much his recipe. I have Nils's recipe, Nils Norn, uh, here. I'll give it to you before I continue. Nils uses one. sugar to one salt. If you use a kosher salt blend it until it's fine, otherwise it doesn't melt properly, nils mixes the salt and sugar mixture with chopped dill and black pepper, even though white pepper is more
+
+[19:11] traditional. Nils hates white pepper because of the moldy taste, hates, hates, hates it, hates. Actually, not a huge fan either. You like white pepper? Because it's moldy tasting, right? And do you care about seeing black pepper on your product? No, to me, it's a sign, there's black pepper there. I love black pepper. I hate white pepper. You know who loves white pepper? Wiley. Wiley Dufrayne. loves white pepper. He's not a huge fan of black pepper. You know what I think he is? Wrong. I think Trump would probably love white pepper. Whoa, I'm gonna tell Wiley you said that. You think Trump is a white pepper fan. That's not what I said. He said, I think. What? Thanks. See, that's very trumpy in yourself. You don't actually, like, I'm not ascribing to any opinion, but I've heard some people say Trump likes white pepper. I get all my information from the Internet. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. So yours, and am I sensing some, there's a there's a racial overtone to the to the pepper argument all of a sudden. I hadn't even, never even, never occurred to me. Although I guess it fits white being moldy. Anyway, even though white pepper is more traditional. I debone, scale the skin and leave the, uh, leave it on as the skin, and here's a key thing that no says, as the skin is really good to sear after it's
+
+[20:20] cured. when you remove it before you slice it, but it's cured. He likes the seared cured skin. I rub the mixture and put the flesh sides together, don't weigh it down, just make sure to turn it after 24 hours, or less if it is a smaller salmon. So anyway, so that's Nils's direct from Nils's mind. And no's gravel lock's pretty damn good. I mean, if I had to say, give me some Swedish crap, I would go to nils and say nils, can you cook me some Swedish crap? Wouldn't you do that, Assassin? haven't seen those in a while. Hopefully I'll see him soon. Um, Okay. I also understand that there might be some risk of contracting parasites. What's the worst word for parasite in your mind,
+
+[20:59] Anastasia? I mean, you don't mind the word parasite. You just hate all the things associated with it. worm, spoor. Like, what else? Uh, parasites, which can be mitigated by using fish that have been frozen to below a certain temperature for an extended period of time. Probably not attainable in a home freezer. Actually, it is. The issue with a home freezer is that you just need to freeze it for an extended period of time. So, like, if you're a home freezer and you can measure it with a thermometer, but your home freezer probably easily gets down to about -20 Celsius, which is -4 Fahrenheit, and that's fine, but you have to leave the
+
+[21:39] for fish in that for a long time. The problem with that also is that probably your fish has already been frozen and multiple
+
+[21:47] freestyle cycles really kind of beats up the texture of the of the flesh. I think your best bet is to get stuff that you can guarantee is previously frozen. I mean, the issues, there are definitely parasite issues in salmon, and those parasites are not necessarily killed by
+
+[22:08] the salting or by the refrigeration. Uh, they will be uh, killed by freezing. You know, the thing is, is that a lot of times if you talk to people in the store, they're like, what do you mean?
+
+[22:20] It's never been frozen. It's fresh. and like, they don't realize that you're like, come on, will you please just tell me this sucker's been frozen because then I don't have to worry about it.
+
+[22:27] People still in their minds. They think that the never frozen is like a positive thing for fish, whereas a lot of fish,
+
+[22:33] especially farmed, which is a lot of what your salmon is going to get unless you're getting the wild caught. Uh, it's much better for them to freeze it properly at the source and ship it than to go through
+
+[22:45] the whole uh, cold chain uh, unfrozen. You know what I mean? Like a lot of all your sushi that you eat supposedly has been frozen to kill parasites. And so freezing is not what it once was, like very high quality frozen fish is kind of the best that you can get for some of these bigger
+
+[23:04] things unless you're catching it, you know, right away, unless it's off of a day boat or something like that. you're not getting unless you live in Alaska or in Washington, you're not getting salmon anywhere close to its
+
+[23:16] source. You know what I'm saying? So anyway. So I would just buy stuff that's frozen ahead of time so that you don't have to worry about it. I would like to prepare and slice this in advance. How far in advance can I prepare it? and with slicing in advance, increase the risk that somebody might get sick from the fish. Yeah, of course. Anytime that you're taking something that's a whole muscle and cutting it, you are introducing the possibility of adding bacteria. So if you get like any kind of contamination on it, listeria or whatever, you're increasing the surface area on which it can
+
+[23:50] grow. And, you know, the knife, if it's not fully sanitized. I mean, are you going to get someone sick? Like maybe not, but, you know, um, yeah, you definitely increase the increase the risk. Now, if you, I don't know if, if you want to, if cheat it, and you can add something that will kill bacteria,
+
+[24:08] like, uh, nitrites or something like this, but I don't really, I don't know a lot about, um, cured fish safety, but definitely you're increasing the
+
+[24:16] risk. It's still a small risk, right? Anyway, also, do you have any values for the ratio of curing mixture to fish and the
+
+[24:23] competition of the mixture? I gave you nils and stuff on that. But, uh, not sure how to answer on the safety, uh, look, I would slice it. I would slice it, um, pretty soon thereafter, keep it really cold, you know, keep everything really cold, like, you know, sanitize your
+
+[24:39] knife. It's probably not going to be a problem. But yeah, anytime you're doing something like that, you're increasing risk. And maybe someone in the chat room has something to say on that. Um, Okay. Should we take a, you want to take a break? Come back with more cookies? Oh, let's take a break and come back with some more cooking issues?
+
+[25:07] Hi, this is Peter Kim, the executive director of MoFAD, the Museum of Food and Drink. We're a nonprofit, founded by Dave Arnold, the host of cooking issues here on the Heritage Radio Network, and we want to take people on a learning adventure through the
+
+[25:19] world of food. We just opened MoFad Lab, our gallery space at 62 Bayard Street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where we are currently showing
+
+[25:26] flavor, making it and faking it. Flavor features some very cool sensory interaction. Flavor tablets deliver tastings of vanilla and umami, and the Willy Wonka inspired smell synth lets you
+
+[25:37] incompose over half a 1000000 different flavors. So come on by and visit Mofad Lab. We're open 5 days a week, and tickets are $5 for kids and $10 for adults. Learn more about the museum of food and drink at mofad.org. Peter Kim, huh? Peter, Kim. Peter Kim. You know that the entire time he was talking about, talking about us, the cooking issues, that he was, like, making snide faces, is
+
+[26:07] just like, you know what I mean? I can see his face. I can see his face of disgust as he mentioned cooking issues. I could feel it. So, Peter. Yeah, I know. So Peter. We got to get his butt back in here so we can. I asked him to come today. And I was too busy, me, me, me, me, me, me, working on the next exhibition that we're going to do, which they're going to do a Kickstarter later
+
+[26:28] on to make money for the next exhibition. Don't worry. Nastasi made her Kickstarter face. You're not involved. Sorry. Nastasia hates Kickstarter, which we can get it. If anyone ever wants Nastasia to, if you want Nastasia to rant, like get her started on running. Unless I hate you, then I'll tell you they're a good idea, which I did once. If someone asks you, should you do one? you're like, yeah. Yeah. So fun. Sometimes, look, sometimes it's necessary. And 1st of all, there are some people who enjoy interacting with people. And for them, maybe it will be good. For you, living nightmare. Some people may be okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? Also, if you were going to do a Kickstarter and you didn't actually have a product you needed to deliver, if it was not actually a product, yeah, if
+
+[27:12] it's a nonprofit. You know, think it's better. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, whatever anyway. Rachel from Hong Kong wrote in. Hey, Dave, Nastasia, and David in the booth, and any other special guests, no other special guests today because Peter apparently doesn't think that we're worthy. We're worthy. Not even not even the chance to talk about MoFat and a free lunch is enough to entice
+
+[27:35] him. Entice him in. A little bit later the game and only found out about your podcast this January. Spent the last 6 months power he threw the entire backlog. Yes, I'm one of those nutjobs. Wow. You know, I feel for anyone that you're friends with. You know what I mean? That's like a lot of screaming and ranting to wade your way through. Yeah. Bit gutted that I didn't quite make it to wish Jackie Molecules bon voyage, but now I'm taking comfort that we still get to hear him on the Heritage radio outro for now. We got to get Jack to record some more outro. Someone just beat down the back wall. You hear that? Somebody beat, almost punched through the back wall, like Kool-Aid style. Did you call out for Kool-Aid? Oh, yeah. Remember that? Oh, whoa, man. David, you are quick on the button today. That has some strong Kool-Aid. Oh, yeah, noise. Have my coffee. Yeah, sweet. What kind of coffee do you like? Black. But like, like, do are you an espresso man or an American cup of coffee, man? Um, well, in summertime, I do cold brew. I like Americanos. I don't know. I don't like milk really. Man, I like milk, but not in my coffee. Yeah, I like milk formed into cheese. Oh, which I was supposed to talk about later. Let's get you a question. Oh, nice segue. Yeah, but I got to finish. I gotta finish Rachel. So I know how you feel about vacuum sealing chicken for low temp cooks, but texture aside, because my theory is that especially the higher the vacuum, If it's cooked in a vacuum bag, it affects the texture of the chicken,
+
+[28:59] makes it spongy and gives it that, you're more apt to have that feeling. I'll describe it this way. Then when you bite into it, It's excessively juicy at the beginning, but then turns to fibrous pulp as you chew. You know what I'm talking about? You felt it. Yeah. That's my feeling. But texture aside, assuming I've pulled a hard vacuum on a bag of chicken breasts and cooked it through to pasteurization time
+
+[29:22] and temp. How long will the cooked chicken, then keep in sealed bags refrigerated before spoilage occurs. I tend to batch cook, and I've had bags keep almost 2
+
+[29:33] weeks smelling and tasting okay so far, but recently I had a batch smell off after 6 days. I reckon it's an anomaly. Might have effed up a seal on that batch. Well, the question is, if you effed up to seal on that bash, the one that smelled off, like, did you get, did the bags blow? In other words, did they inflate? So a lot of times, if something's gone wrong, there's 2 things that can happen, you can just see that you have a loss of
+
+[29:57] seal. This is especially, I forget to say, did you bone them? Did you bone them? I can't, I can't see. See, if you, if you don't, let's say you, let's say you have chicken
+
+[30:09] breasts. Now, this is before I get to your safety question. Let's say you have chicken breasts and the bone, there's still a bone attached to them. Now, if you suck a very, very hard vacuum, like a, like, wait till the machine gets down to its full vacuum and then allow it to suck for an additional 30 to 40 seconds, right?
+
+[30:24] You'll evacuate most of the air most, the air out of the bones. Uh, and then you'll, you know, you'll be able to get a good seal and you'll be able to uh, have the bag stay tight. However, if let's say that chicken was a little bit warmer than the rest of the chicken. Then it's never going to get down to the super low vacuum. You might not pull all the air out of the bones. And that case, when you cook, air will seep out of the bones because bird bones are hollow, and you'll get a puffed bag, right? So that's one way you can get a puff bag on a chicken. But let's assume that didn't happen, right? You can sometimes you can get a pinhole leak, right? And usually if you look at it really closely. there's a little fold in the bag seal where it didn't seal right, or the edge of the bag got too close to the edge of the bar, and sometimes you can get a little pinch or a crimp
+
+[31:10] mark, and where the sealer is towards the edge of the bags, and you'll notice you don't have a good seal, or there'll be like a little piece of herb or
+
+[31:18] something they cut across one of the bag ceiling points, and you can see. And there you'll see you'll get some leakage in and what you'll have is a knot type bag. It usually won't give you a blown bag. A blown bag happens when there's bacterial growth in the bag, and it literally inflates from gas that's being produced. And if you get a blown bag on anything that you weren't specifically trying to get a blown bag on. So for instance, like if you're making sauerkraut, you're trying to grow lactic acid bacteria in an anaerobic
+
+[31:49] environment. In that case, if the bag doesn't blow, it's not working properly, right? So, uh, anytime you get a blown bag, something terribly um, wrong uh, has happened. Anyway, I reckon it's an anomaly. I might have messed up the seal on that batch, but I'm also curious as to what makes stuff go bad in the absence of air and any pathogens since it's been pasteurized. For reference, I tend to cook my chicken breasts in flattish 200 gram bags, I
+
+[32:15] guess portion 200 grams, at 62 degrees Celsius for about 2 to 3 hours. Thanks in advance and for all your time doing the show every week. It's been an awesome source of information. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to listen to now that I've wiped out the batlog. Cheers, Rachel from Hong Kong. All right. So there's there's a lot of stuff going on here. First of all, as regards the shelf life, I'll read this is from the Minnesota, this is Minnesota's food code. I don't know why Minnesota, that's the 1st people that came online when I popped it up, right? So it's the Minnesota food code requires the shelf life under refrigeration of products that are vacuum packaged in a retail store, right?
+
+[32:50] So that would be like what you use. be limited to 14 days. However, food manufacturing places that are inspected by USDA or state get 30 days or longer. And the reason is is because they don't trust retail operations to have the levels of safety and quality on the products as they
+
+[33:10] go as they go into the bag, and they don't trust the pasteurization procedures and the coal chain holding ability of a retail outlet to guarantee safety for 30 data
+
+[33:22] longer. But if everything is done right, right, then they're like,
+
+[33:26] oh, yeah, 30 days, no problem. So you can keep stuff that long, as long as you're cooking stuff properly and maintaining it. Now, as for bags that appear to have been pasteurized and
+
+[33:37] still blow off and go bad. Now, you're quite right, most spoilage bacteria, especially things that stink and smell bad. Do not grow in anaerobic environments, i.e. they will not grow in a
+
+[33:50] vacuum. And in fact, that is why people are worried about the safety of vacuum
+
+[33:55] cooked products because typically, uh, when things spoil uh, in an aerobic environment, i.e. with oxygen, when they spoil
+
+[34:03] an aerobic environment, they smell terrible. And so you can use sliminess, like because it grows slime, you can take smell, and all these things indicate that bacteria have been growing on it, and that it's no longer good nor safe to eat.
+
+[34:16] The problem is, is that in a vacuum, That's not the case. So in a vacuum, you can get pathogens that grow. They're particularly worried about things like botulism, listeria, perfringens, these sorts of things, that can grow in the absence of producing a
+
+[34:34] smell or sliminess, and sometimes in the absence of producing a gas that would indicate that there has been growth at all.
+
+[34:42] And that's why people are worried about the safety of vacuum packed foods in general. Now, when things go wrong in a bag, usually it's due to improper
+
+[34:53] pasteurization. And so that can happen, and then you can get the growth. If you don't kill all the vegetative cells, typically in a pasteurizing
+
+[35:01] procedure, in 62 degrees Celsius, for 2 to 3 hours and something that is fairly flat is more than enough to properly pasteurize a chicken breast, more than enough.
+
+[35:12] Typically, right? If you get blow off in the bag, you're getting something that can grow in an anaerobic environment that's not spore forming.
+
+[35:22] So we're talking about lactic acid bacteria. Most of the time, you're going to kill lactic acid bacteria, 100% of the time, if you pasteurize it, you're going to kill the lactic acid bacteria and they're not forming spores, you shouldn't have that kind of a problem. Typically when you do have that kind of a problem. I ascribe it usually either, as you say, to a leak where bacteria can get in, or to a situation where you have, like, 2 or 3 bags touching each other. And in fact, the temperature on the inside of that bag didn't actually get up to where you think it should have fast enough.
+
+[35:52] So sometimes that can incubate bacteria in the bag, in which case it probably tasted bad right when you took it out of the bath. Or, um, It hasn't killed everything and it can grow later. Or you have like a knife jab and some bacteria have survived on the inside of the meat that somehow got there.
+
+[36:10] It didn't pasteurize all the way through because you had layer on layer on
+
+[36:13] layer, and then it grew over time. The other thing is, is that I have this sneaking suspicion that in certain cases of
+
+[36:22] this, there are other things going on. And so if you go to this book called Principles of Modified Atmosphere and
+
+[36:28] Subi product packaging, edited by Jeffrey Farber and Karen Dodds, if the pH inside of the
+
+[36:34] bag. And so this has happened enough that it warrants some, um, some thinking at a pH greater than about 5.8, right? There are things that are like thermophilic and mesophilic that might be able to survive and can grow
+
+[36:49] in anaerobic things. For instance, uh, and this is just, you know, off the top of the Wikipedia and this book's
+
+[36:57] head. I haven't researched it. Uh, and taro bacteria, uh, uh, Brocco thrix and Shelonella putrefactions, which is also known as altero monas putrefactions, and they can cause stink and grow in an anaerobic environment and may not be killed unless you really make sure it's pasteurized right.
+
+[37:15] But I have a sense that that's kind of what's happening. Um, obviously, if it smells bad, don't, uh, don't eat it, right? Doesn't make any damn sense. anyway. Gus wrote in. Hey, my name is Gus. I'm a college student in Kentucky majoring in biology and chemistry. I actually love how scientific and detailed you guys get on the show. Without my 2 years of biology and chemistry classes, I'm not sure I'd be able to understand half of what you guys are talking
+
+[37:37] about, but that's what I love. In my spare time, I love to make, uh, bean to bar chocolate. Nastasia hated making bean to bar chocolate. Do we make that? All the time, remember? We didn't just make the ketchup thing. We made a couple of batches 1st of regular bean chocolate. Remember grinding all of the cacao nibs in cacao in the champions and then all of that cocoa liquor mess everywhere. It was drowned out by the other nonsense we had to do. Yeah, you didn't hate that as much as you hated like all of the nut butters. in the sand thing. I hate was the combo tests and the clarifying grapefruit juice by hand. Yeah. Well, you said you're never going to do that again. Never. Never. In my spare time, I love to make bean de bar chocolate. I order the raw beans and then ferment, roast, winnow, grind, and finally conch them. I ground them by hand for a while in a mocha jete before recently upgrading to a countertop
+
+[38:28] Melanger. I usually end up with some pretty delicious results and I enjoy the process. However, I'm pretty blind as far as the science behind it all. Like sugar and fat structure, tempering, blooming, et cetera, and would love to learn more. Do you know of any books or other literature that really dive deep into this, the nerdier, the better? I haven't had much luck finding anything. So any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much. Keep up the great work, Gus. Okay. So back in the day, when I used to order, when I used to Xerox, all of the technical books out of the science and business industry library in here in New York City, the classic chocolate work was by a fellow named
+
+[39:06] Minifi, and it was just known as Minifi chocolate. It's very industrially oriented, and it's also, it's been updated a couple of times, and it is, I think, still one of the industry standards, but it's
+
+[39:18] A, extremely expensive, like, uh, like $150, $200. And B is, I think, a little bit out of date. However, I'm sure they have it in the in your library at school for you to go look at. Um, it's not what I what I recommend. Um, the, the kind of book that came out, uh, I don't know what it was 10, 15 years ago, that everyone
+
+[39:41] started, um, buying that it's, it's a couple of things. It's blessedly short. You can do an Amazon look inside of, and it's only 30 bucks, is the science of chocolate by Steven Beckett. There's a paperback, there's a hardcover, and one of them, I forget, is on Amazon Prime for like 30 bucks, and it's decent. It's short, and it's to the point. It gives you the science. It's still focused on bigger operations, not necessarily on kind of what you're doing, but I would get that. And then, in terms of the actual, and that'll give you some of the science, but in terms of the actual, like, putting your hands to recipes, I would go on any of the websites out there where people are doing their own kind of bean to bar stuff,
+
+[40:22] like, uh, chocolate alchemy instead, which is who we use when we were originally getting the Santa. There's a lot of different melangeurs out there. I would say, uh, in addition to the Mellinger, you'd be, uh, it'd be good if you went and got yourself a champion juicer, that's still what I would use for the initial
+
+[40:37] grindout of the, um, of the, uh, the, you know, the
+
+[40:41] cacao uh, beans or nibs or whatever you're using to do it. But yeah, so I would get a hold of champion, but yeah, get the science of chocolate 2nd edition. and let me know what you think. I think it's pretty good. I don't think there's anything better at that price point, that's for sure. Um, I'm assuming that you don't have infinite money to spend since you're a college student majoring in biology. Am I right? I'm assuming. All right. Uh, Barry wrote in. This is kind of a hard question. I don't know what to answer. Maybe, like, take, I wanted to get McGee on this, but, you know, he's been in Spain, so I don't know. Barry writes in, rather than wait to see, if there is a show, here's my question for the next show. I guess it was a show a week where we didn't necessarily going to have a show. don't know. How does a chef create the taste sensation of individual flavors that meld into one? For example, if I make shrimp étouffé, it tastes like shrimp étouffé. But when a chef does it, on the initial bite, when a chef does
+
+[41:37] it, on the initial bite, one tastes the red pepper, then the celery, then the onion followed by the tomato. As one chews, each one of the clear individual flavors melts together to taste like a shrimp etifé, how does this work?
+
+[41:50] And secondly, how does a chef create an initial spicy flavor that passes and
+
+[41:54] is followed by a different lingering spicy flavor later? Well, Huh. How do you create things that meld? It's a complicated, that's a really complicated question. I don't really, it's in the, it's kind of hard. I've never really used kind of do those kinds of things, um, you know, kind of naturally. One thing you can do, uh, Barry, is, um,
+
+[42:18] you include things that that bridge. So, for instance, like, if you need something to linger, and you're gonna add some acidity, you want, and you need to draw, for instance, the front of the palate towards the back of the palate, and you know something's missing, you can add an acid, like something that,
+
+[42:36] like, lime that's gonna pull, and so, like, a lot of spicier cuisine, you'll see, and I think it's not just because that's where it grows, you'll see lime in it instead of
+
+[42:44] lemon, and the reason is, is that lime's gonna integrate across the flavor palate longer than, um,
+
+[42:51] lemon will, because the malic acid has a longer trail out. So like when you're tasting something, a lot of times when things integrate, it's either because you've put something in with too high of a high note, like a particular spice, they just
+
+[43:04] hits one note too hard, and you need to bring the rest of this stuff up to kind of beat that note down.
+
+[43:09] Or a lot of times what happens is you'll have a drop down somewhere in the mid-palette of you eating. When I think about flavors. I tend to think about the time progression of what goes on in something and then try to figure out kind of where
+
+[43:26] things um, drop out. And usually that's where you'll notice things don't meld well. Like a lot of times in the middle of a palette, and that's where, you know, that's why we tend to add a bunch of salt, which rounds out all the flavor.
+
+[43:39] That's why we tend to hit everything with acid at the end because it doesn't just brighten, but it rounds everything out. But I don't really know how to answer your question in other words. I guess I need more thought on it. Need more thought about how to round it out. What do you think, Nastasia? Do you know what eggs at duvet is? Eggs in like in a duvet cover? It's when you fart under the computer. What does that have to do with this? You just think about it? welcome to my life. People welcome to my life. Trying to talk about how to make flavors melt together. like, you know what melts together, farting under a comforter. Et touffé. Etouffe. Going into New Orleans, by the way, for Tales of the Cocktail. Speaking of a Touffe. Harass them down there, everybody. I'll be there a blessedly short period of time. I'm going there from I'll be there on Thursday night and Friday night. I know your cell phone number circulates somewhere online. Please, please. I'm bringing the centrifuge with me, by the way. So for those of you, the tales of the cocktail, I'm going to do a demo of it for the cat programs, get some feedback for some bartenders.
+
+[44:46] Yeah, evil. You're the evil person. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Just like, you know, have to be mean to me for no reason. Well, one time I put my away message when I went on vacation and
+
+[45:00] said, if you want to contact Dave, It was for other people that we work with. I forgot that the radio show people email me. And then your number was there. Nastasia also put the, like, swipe credit card for the original
+
+[45:14] Sears all alert. number. I don't know how that happened. And people are calling me. They're like, who are you? Why did you charge my credit card? I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like, hey, what are you talking about? Like, you're a thief. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And then remember, like, people would be, like, people would order a sears all on Kickstarter, right? Or Shopstarter. And then they would forget. And they didn't know what Booker and Dax was. You know what I mean? It's usually like the wives of the men who bought... Why is it men? Why are you going sex with on this? No, because it was usually women that were like, what is this charge on my bill? Why did you check with your husband? I checked you. did you buy a gift for anyone? Right. And she's like, no. because I remember that one specifically in that chair. I was like, Nastasia, how the hell did they get my personal number to call about credit
+
+[46:06] card stuff? So weird. Yeah, they match, I don't know. Yeah. And so, so, you know, to get back in Nastasia, like the time she sent me on Spirit
+
+[46:18] Airlines next to, you know, next to, well, a woman and her fake service dog, you know what I mean? The, uh, I gave him her number. I was like, you need to call Nastasio. Yeah. Um, okay. Mark calls in. This is a Burning Man question. I'm not going to be able to answer this question right now. I gotta think on it. Okay, so go to mozzarella. No, I'm going to do it. I'm going to talk about it, and then someone else will have a suggestion, I hope. One big Siri question, Siri question. part of the joke here. I'd like to serve a 1000 creme brulees at this year's Burning Man festival in the Nevada desert, but what to serve these in? First of all, We got to ask Jordan. Jordana Ross. She's going to come on the show in 3 weeks, I think. That'll be before burning that because she's going, too. Yeah, because she served some sort of cocktail at the Burning Man last year. Didn't use limes. I don't want to get into it. I don't wanna get into it. She came, we talked about how to do what we wanted to do. You insulted her and then she did something else entirely. Which is fine. Just don't ask. You know what I mean? But anyway, that's not my point. My point is, is that, is that Mark, let me ask you this. Is the Burning Man crowd, the Crème Brué kind of crowd, that's the question. What do you think? I think no, but I don't know. Are you going to be able to chill these cremeble? anyway, whatever. The crème brulee is sorted. Some investigations led me to this product. Dr. Otker, or Otker, it's that German brand. They make the vanilla tuker as well. You know what I'm talking about, right? You see it? Yeah. Crème brulee mix. It's prefab. Just need milk and cream. Foolproof and tastes okay, and it's cheap, which will come in handy since we're
+
+[48:02] going to prepare this in an RV with a very limited kitchen. We also get to insult the French kitchen at large. Now, by the way, I looked at the ingredient list for that sucker, and it's starch and carraginen, and milk powder. So it should stay in the heat because the carragin should keep it set no matter what. It's not gelatin-based, so or anything like that. So the carragan should work. Um, okay. I can't work out how to make the ramekins. However, they must be edible, since there's no waste at Burning Man, and we definitely don't want to bring pottery Ramekins, although how Burning Man would that be to like literally like slip cast a 1000 things, eat the creme brulee, just shatter it into the freaking desert and it becomes pot of the earth. Out of the earth. Seems like it's very burning man, right? You know what I mean? Like, those little, like, free game, like... Do you ever do Burning Man? Oh no. What if you had no family? Would you ever do Burning Man? Don't people have to get naked? I don't believe you naked. No. Except on your funeral. That's what you wanna be. I don't like heat. I don't like heat. I like it gets cold at night, like super cold. I like that. I like cold at night. I like the desert. Well, yeah. I don't really like collaboration. You get to choose who you want to be with. I like to kind of like be left alone. You can do that too. Then why go to Burning Man? Can I be left? Can I just go camp there? By myself? Not in burning man, but you really want to be all alone in the desert? Not all alone. Yeah. So you can, like, choose who to speak to. Isn't it like large petroleum fires? I don't know. I don't know. I've never been. I've never been. Look, I look, I've had plenty of friends who have gone and said it's life-changing, although I'm not sure their life afterwards was better than their life beforehand. You know what I'm saying? Like I've gone I've known people who, like, it was life changing in the sense that, like, they ended up breaking off their engagement and then, like, going to a downward spiral for 5 years. You know what I'm saying? I think it's different for everybody. Kind of like LSD, different for everybody. Like some people, they spiral off and some people it, like, you know, leads to enlightenment. It can go either way. What did Jordan say? She loved it. Obviously, she's going to go again. Is her boyfriend Daniel going? Did he go to the 1st time? I didn't even walk up a rock without crying. Like, wow. Wow. Nastasia insulting our friends on air. All right. I can't work out how to make the ramekins. They must be edible, since there's no wasted Burning Man, and we don't want to bring pottery ramekins. I'm thinking of a caramel or corneto slash cookie ramekin alternative, but making these will be very labor
+
+[50:45] intensive and also they're going to get soggy, right? They're going to get soggy. Ramekins? A cookie ramekin. First of all, think of all those freaking cookies. I think a super baller move would be to slip cast a whole crap ton of these things. Like... Where is he coming from? No, do it in Nevada. Then you have to bring a... The plaster mold? Yeah. I guess it would take a 1000000 years. And you wouldn't be able to fire them, so you'd get clay in your cream and delay. Right. Although, would it be hot enough to fire them? No. No, no, no, no, no, no. By the way, PS, although you could build a giant fire outside of your RV and be firing
+
+[51:27] the clay. That is super baller, man. That is what you were supposed to be there for. That is so super ballers. Like slip casting in the desert is super easy. Here's why, right? You got your you got your slip mix, right? which is like a liquid. And then it's just these plaster, these 2 plaster, um, uh, things. So you pour it in to the to the ramekin. So let's say you have this big piece of plaster that has the cut mold shaped in it. You ever done slip casting sauce? No. So what you do is you pour it in. You fill up the entire cup mixture, right? And you let it sit. Depends on how thick you want it, but like the ones I used to do. You only had them let it. You use the earth as the... I don't know. depends if they have clay there. But you let it sit, the slip makes, you let it sit for like, you know, however long, like 30 minutes.
+
+[52:13] The plaster absorbs the moisture from the
+
+[52:17] slip mixture and forms a leathery layer right next to the plaster. You then dump the rest of the slip out and you have this thin, perfectly hollow. I used to make vases this way for art for an art sculpture I was
+
+[52:30] doing the uzzes. And then you have this thing that you can then go fire and then you do it again. You can do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. You can keep making them, and I made big, like, 2.5 feet tall vases, and in the course of a couple of days, I made like 40 or 50 of them.
+
+[52:47] So if you're making little ramekins in like in like a master mold thing, you could make a crap ton of them. It just seems super baller to like make a kiln out in the desert. whatever. not going to do it. It just seems like super baller thing to do, or maybe get someone else to do that. Or have your camp do it. All right, but going back to a cookie. I think cookies a pain in the butt. And also, in order for a cookie to work, it's going to have to be so thick that you're going to be hauling 8 tons of cookie out there. You know what I'm saying? And they're gonna break. What do you think about? I mean, you could do like a like a creme brulee tostada shell. That would hold anyway. You hate that idea? Also, the problem is, is that how you get the crème brulee wants to be cold, right? Are you gonna chill it? But if you chill it in the ramekin that's edible, the ramekin that's edible is gonna get all nasty, right? It's going to get all floppy and nasty because there's going to be a liquid contact. get me? See the problem? Why does he want to do criminal... Anyway, that's not the point. But the point is, the Karaginen, like, the ultimate would be if you could do, if you could, if you could set the, the
+
+[53:52] crème brulee in a tube. A tube. Who is that Alaska senator? It's a series of tubes. Remember that? That's how you describe the internet. and set it in a tube and then slice it into disks and let them thaw in your ramekin, then you could use almost anything because they wouldn't need to be around that long before you served it.
+
+[54:10] It wouldn't get soggy, right? But the issue is, is that I don't know if the kerogen they're using. I didn't have time to look it up, is going to be free thaw stable, but you got to run a test on that. Um, anyway. Oh, yeah, maybe unless we freeze the creme brulee blocks, cut them up in portions and coat them. Yeah, but lots of work. By the way, I'll think on it a little more. They said best I could find were pre-fab waffle bowls. Not quite it, but will do. That's kind of expensive. I'll think on some more. Maybe someone in the cooking issues land has some theories. One thing I'll say. Remember, creme brulee is one of the few things that I recommend using a naked torch on instead, especially for Burning Man,
+
+[54:48] naked torch, and not a searsal, because it just is. one of those things. But I'll think on that. I'll think honest and what. I thought you didn't believe in naked. Only for creme brulee, do I believe in naked? All right. So, all right, quick one. Daniel writes in question about pressure cookers, I'm not even going to get to talk. I made mozzarella this week. And by the way, it's one of the, do you ever have anything in your life, nostalgia that, like, you've had such a traumatic experience that you won't ever do it again? Uh, yeah, I like ravioli. Yeah. So like 23 or 24 years ago, right? 23 years ago, I was like 22. And I was at my wife's apartment. I was still in college or just gotten out of college. She was in, she was, you know, had her 1st job. There was no internet, and I wanted to make mozzarella. And I'll just say that it was a freaking catastrophe, like a freaking catastrophe. There was no place to look it up. I was just what I could gather from books on how it was done. I didn't know how to make curds. I was not a professional. And my wife, for the past 23 years, has made fun of my mozzarella attempt 23 years
+
+[55:59] ago so much that I have never tried it again, ever until last night. And I have to say, success. But we'll talk more about it later. But yeah, she like she was like, she was like, you should leave that kind of stuff to the professionals. This was, you know, obviously I wasn't a food professional at the time. But you know what? Like, this weekend, I was like, tomatoes are gonna grow, where my tomatoes are growing. There's no good mozzarella. I need to learn how to make mozzarella again. And plus, you know what, damn it. I am professional now. You have that cheese shop near you. In New York? No, in Connecticut. Cheese shop. Do they make mozzarella? Yeah. Is it good? Yeah, we yeah. The mozzarella is good? is a cheese shop. Yeah. Got a minute. I'll look it up. Okay. A minute. Daniel, I'm gonna get your question in a minute. Question about pressure cookers. A good 100 episodes ago, call or ask about what pressure cookers you would recommend. he buy and why. I'm having a hell of a time finding the episode, thought you might answer it again. What stovetop pressure cooker would you recommend ignoring price? I think you've mentioned the coon recon model in the past? That's the only one I like that I've used myself personally. How does that model compare to the Fistler Vita Quick? I hate the word Videquik? Because it implies that you're keeping vitamins inside in a pressure cooker, which is, ho, ho, ho cum. But, uh, it looks like a really good unit. The Fistler Vita Quick looks like the coon recon in that it has a pressure gauge that goes up and down and so allows you to gauge the pressure without it venting. And as you might know, in my
+
+[57:25] tests, I've noticed venting pressure cookers tend to make stocks that don't taste as good.
+
+[57:30] That's been my experience backed up by many, many trials. So anyway, so the Fistler Vita Quick looks good. I don't have any personal experience with it. America's test Christian rates the Fistler quite a bit higher than the Coon recon model. Again, I don't know. I've never used the Fistler. Are there assessments valid in your opinion? I also can't get a hold of their. Someone can send me their stuff. I don't have their password to their website. They claim the coon recon model had the most evaporative loss out of all the models they've tested. If that's the case, then they're not testing the coon recon right, Dakun recon, if you overshoot the pressure gauge, you'll get evaporative loss because it's telling you to turn down. But my coon recon, when it's operating properly, is dead silent and there's no, uh, there's no venting out of it. So you say, have you found this to be true? No. I also I looked up their thing. I looked up their test, they recommend the Fagor, and I hate, I don't, I hate. I didn't like that, the Fagor, and they made a classic error. I'm going to leave you with this and we could talk more about it next time if you want more questions. They made a classic error that people with the fagor pressure cooker make. The fagor pressure cooker, when you close the lid and you turn on the heat and it starts building pressure, a little button
+
+[58:40] goes, poop, and indicates that there is pressure in the unit. It does not indicate that you have reached your operating pressure. So if you use the Fagor model and think that that little yellow dot is an indication that you have reached 15
+
+[58:54] PSI on the inside of your pressure cooker, you are mistaken.
+
+[58:59] The only way you can figure out whether you've actually reached that pressure is whether or not it's venting steam through the pressure regulator that's set to that pressure,
+
+[59:07] right? Because the button doesn't know whether you're at 5 PSI or 15 PSI or what. It just knows that it's sealed and that you started building pressure. Classic mistake. Anyway, we could talk more about it next time on cooking issues.
+
+[59:27] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[59:41] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:00:00] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] 2%, 2%, 2%. The 2%'s right over here. Oh, hey, Jenna. I didn't know you shopped here. Uh, yeah, anything to support local food. Know what I mean? I definitely do, though that's not the only thing you do in the name of good eats, obviously. Well, true. I also host eating matters every Wednesday at 5 p.m. where we talk about food policy and how it impacts all of us. Be sure to tune in. All right, you gotta cut the plug in there. I get it. Yep, I'm hashtag Shameless. You know what else you can do to support the local food community, right? Well, yeah, make a donation to Heritage Radio Network, the world's pioneer food radio station. That's right. And I got to call you out in the whole local thing. What you mean? Well, the farm report, a taste of the past. Japan eats. Those are shows that take you around the country and the world. I'll give you that. So how can listeners give their support? It's pretty easy. Just go to heritageradionetworks.org and click on the big red heart in the top right corner. It's pretty easy from there. Thanks. Hi there. I'm Greg from Kapau. Visit us at Capow.com to check out our unique collection of everyday reusable products designed to help you do more with less.
+
+[1:13] CUPPOW.com Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, I don't know, what is it, like 12, 15, something like that, till like one o'clock, you know, from a birth pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn,
+
+[1:50] joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah? Everything good? And we got Dave Id in the booth. How you doing? Good. How you doing, man? All right, all right. Uh, it's uh, it, like, I was flying home from New Orleans, and this is the only time in my life. I fly home to a place freaking hotter than I was when I'm flying from New Orleans in the middle of the summer. I just got back from Tales of the Cocktail. Tales of the Cocktail, which is now, I don't know, like 11 years old or something like that. I've been going since, I think, like year two, the year right after Katrina is the 1st year I went. And originally they started down there because they had no money, right? And so they wanted to have it in New Orleans, which is a big cocktail town. But they're like, what time of year does nobody, but nobody want to go to New
+
+[2:38] Orleans right now. Like the height of July. It's like, you know, you know what the other convention was? like maybe the 2nd year I went down there at the same time? Swingers. The only other people, they're like, they're like, it don't it don't matter. Like, you know, I don't got I don't got to take them out somewhere nice. We're all just gonna like, you know, meet up afterwards. Yeah, if we meet in the hotel room. Weird, huh? Whoa. Whoa. Anyway, so I just got back from there. Uh, I demonstrated the centrifuge to uh, the uh, group of the cats, which they call them cocktail apprentices, but really they're this group of people, um, you know, uh, that take care of all the
+
+[3:16] behind the house stuff at tales of cocktails. So there's something like, I forget what it was. It was something like 200,000 drinking cups that they, they, with all the seminars and all the parties and events and stuff like that. So they do all the batching, the juicing, the coordination, getting it done. So I demonstrated to those guys. I think they liked it. I made some banana gustino, which was good. Uh, and I made a um, lime cordial. Sorry, I made an orange cordial. So I took, you know how, you know how I always say orange juice, when you clarify it, tastes like Sonny D? right? And so it's not that useful because it doesn't taste that good. Well, I've been fermenting it at home. Like I told you, maybe next time I try a bottle, if I like it, I'll bring it
+
+[3:53] in and we'll try it on air, okay? It needs to age a little longer, I think. But, uh, so I use it, um, I'm trying to ferment it, but then the other thing I do is I take the clarified orange juice. I acid adjust it and turn it to a cordial, like lime cordial. And unlike lime cordial, you don't have to heat it because it doesn't go off as fast as
+
+[4:12] the lime cordial, so it doesn't have to have that heated taste because a lot of people they're like, I want my, what are you doing? Just lime cordial. It doesn't taste like it's fresh. Well, it's not fresh, you dunce. it cordial. It's like a traditional flavor that's supposed to taste like it's been cooked and you're supposed to like bring it on board a ship and keep yourself from getting scurvy,
+
+[4:30] moron, that's not supposed to taste fresh. Not every freaking drink with citrus in it has to taste like it was made like the ingredients were made 13 seconds ago. That's not the freaking point of the cordial. But anyways, this orange stuff, it lasts a long time, but let me tell you, I don't
+
+[4:43] know, if I mentioned my, like, double acid cordial. I have? What is it then? explain it. I haven't freaking mentioned it. don't even know what it is. You can't even describe it. That's what I live with. because I don't listen to you on the show, but I'm sure. Yeah. No, I don't think I have mentioned it. So the point is, is that when you mix, when you make lime cordial, typically it's one to one lime juice and sugar, right? Just like simple syrup, that's what people do. They add peel to it, and then they heat it up to a boil, and then they strain it, and then they bottle it and that's cordial. All right, now, the inherent problem with that is, oh, by the way, is your sister going to call in today? No, she said she hasn't made anything this past week. Oh, my God. Just a key lane sight. Talk about dump meal. Just tequila? No, just a key lime pie. You don't make a key lime pie in a freaking... You dumped a, but it wasn't in a... Who the hell makes kilo? You can't make key lime pie in a slow cooker. I know. First of all, key lime pie is perhaps the simplest dish on
+
+[5:42] earth to construct. I mean, please tell me she at least made her own graham cracker crust. I ask her. I mean, for God's sakes. Did she actually use, did she use that bottled key lime juice? I'm sure. People, people, people. You are better off using regular Persian slash beer slimes than bottled key lime juice.
+
+[6:08] Do you agree with that, Nastasia? I like key limes. They're a pain to juice though, huh? Remember when I bought that miniature juicer in Mexico and I brought it back and I did an angry juice and I broke it on day one before we could ever use it at the bar? Anyway. Oh, by the way, someone sent us mead. Oh, really? At least I hope it is. The meatery in New Jersey, Noah's Vice. sent that over for you. All right, well, we're going to taste it. Maybe we'll crack it open during the break and start tasting it in. But, uh, so it's wait, what's it called? The place? Noah's Vice. Noah's Weice. I thought Noah enjoyed grapes, and that was the problem where he got naked and his kids had to cover him up. Yeah, I think that's what the name comes from. But this is made from honey, not from grapes. Noah got crunked out and dropped his drawers in front of his
+
+[6:52] kids on account of wine. So they're saying that they're off of Noah's vice and they're on this meat action. Maybe Noah had more devices than we knew about. Hmm, Noah had more vices than we knew about. Is that like that's that's like it's somewhere in the liner notes for for some band that I don't that I don't know. I haven't thought of the name yet, but right, is my right or wrong? Someone correct me on my Bible here. Noah got wasted on grape wine. chat room, any Bible experts? Got wasted on grape wine, dropped his drawers, and the kids, like, looked the other way, so as not to become
+
+[7:22] abominations, and, like, drape stuff over, and we're like, yo, dad, sleep that one off. I believe that is exactly what happened. That's in the Jersey Bible, which someday Nastasia and I are going to do. Yo, dad, sleep that off. You know what I mean? It's like someday we're going to do it. You know what I'm saying, Nastasia? Never got a caller. Oh, yeah, caller? on the air. Cole, are you there? Color. Don't think so. Color. Hello? Hey. Hey, how we going, Dave? Going all right. What up? Good. I have a question for you about liqueur extracts and aging. So I've been making some extracts using 195 proof grain alcohol. And the recipes I've looked at, most of them require or recommend that the, excuse me, the extract, after adding the simple sugar,
+
+[8:15] be aged for a couple months in a dark place. I'm wondering why that would be, if that's just an old wives' tale or what the case. pay for that. What kind of bottle is it in? I'm sorry, you're barely coming in. Oh, well, there's a couple of things here. One, many, many products are actually photo sensitive. It's not just, I mean, very few products have the extreme reaction to light that, you know, the humulones in hops have,
+
+[8:45] right? Where they just go skunky on you. But many, many things are very reactive to UV light. So in general, unless you know that something specifically is light stable, it is a very good idea to store it in the dark. Makes sense, but it seems to be more for some kind of flavor development or flavor maturation or some kind of smoothing of the flavor out over time after the extract, sugar and
+
+[9:15] water have been kind of combined. It's basically a limoncello sort of recipe, except I've made it with raspberries or basil, and it says, add to, you know, after you add your
+
+[9:26] symbol syrup, you know, store it for a couple months before drinking. Right. I have, okay, so I have more, I have never made this kind of thing with raspberry, but I've dealt with basil quite a lot, and aging, and I can tell you for sure
+
+[9:40] that, um, the day you make it, right? It has one taste, the fresh kind of basil taste. And then it does go through a period of it being not, in my opinion, not as good, right? But, you know, different. And changes. And then after basil in particular stabilizes somewhere between 3 and 6 months, I can't pin the exact date because, um, I didn't taste it every day. But and that's at, you know, 40 or 50 proof. You know what I mean? And yeah. And so the, uh, and that's for a distillate, though, not for an infusion, but I'm assuming that it's a similar kind of a similar kind of an issue. And, um, it's a, it's a myth that high proof, um, high
+
+[10:30] proof, uh, spirit don't age in the bottle. It's complete myth. It depends. Some high proof spirits don't really age in the bottle. So whiskeys tend to stay pretty stable in the bottle, vodka, clearly, stays stable in the bottle. gins tend to stay stable in the bottle, but, I mean, Saint Germain does not stay stable in the bottle. Chartreuse is, you know, stable-ish, but if you taste Chartreuse that's like, you know, 15, 20 years old, it's definitely
+
+[11:01] different and it's not because the recipe has changed, but it's because, um,
+
+[11:06] It's because it's aged. Now, the thing about it, the thing that, like, so as a consumer who goes into making their own, the reason it's not apparent is because, uh, you know,
+
+[11:18] all all commercial spirits have been developed to stay stable so that their customers kind of know what to
+
+[11:25] expect, right? And so, you know, we're really only exposed to things that have been either stabilized or
+
+[11:33] made stable, which is why a lot of, like, you know, vodka flavors, no offense to them, but they all taste fake because they have to be fake because the real ones would be horribly unstable if they actually made it for real.
+
+[11:44] You know what I mean? And so like a lot of the flavors that are used are in liquors are dried herbs or things like citrus peels, things that have like after some initial movement after they're
+
+[11:55] made and they can usually be held by the companies long enough for that initial movement to happen, they eventually, you know, meld everything, gets along
+
+[12:02] fine and they're relatively stable. But part of the joy of making something yourself is to make things that are not stable. Now, right. One thing, one thing I will also say is that a lot of things are delicious. Some things just are wretched while they're going through their awkward phase. It's like, you know, it's like the middle school of infusions, but it's, you know, a lot of things taste good, kind of all along, but just they're different at every step of the way. Usually, you love something when it's fresh because that's why you made it because it was delicious when it was fresh, right? I mean, that's kind of what happened. Your palate was geared to making something fresh, especially you're not used to tasting with a mind 6 or 8 months from
+
+[12:45] now because you don't know what's going to happen, right? So you like this stuff that's fresh. And then as it changes, almost invariably, you like it a little bit less as it starts to change
+
+[12:54] initially if you really liked it at the get go. And that's when you need to, like, keep in your, in your, like, in your mind in your, in your heart that this stuff might get good again later.
+
+[13:04] Um, I think that when people write recipes, I think that they make a huge mistakes when they talk
+
+[13:12] about, um, uh, things that need to be aged. With the exception of things that are kind of dangerous until they age out. I think, uh, you know, they know because they've made it a 1000000 times, uh, that, you know, they might as well not taste it between now and, you know, in a couple of months when it's when it's
+
+[13:28] ready. The truth of the matter is, when you're learning, you should taste a little bit as you go so that you can kind of get a feel for kind of what's changing and then get a feel for what you like and what
+
+[13:38] the stability is. Because that's really the only way to learn. If you, you know, if you if you just put something down and then don't taste it again and then you don't know what's happening. No, that makes sense. And what I was planning on doing is actually letting it, uh, letting this batch age for a couple months, uh, and taste it as it goes and then make a fresh match in a couple months from now and then actually be able to taste them side by side, uh, 2 month old versus afresh, uh, extract and uh, mature. So, uh, okay, so it's not a, it's not an old wife's tale
+
+[14:06] that, uh, that something's happening to even just a simple syrup and uh, and an alcohol extract, something's happening over time. some things are pretty dang stable, but a lot of things move. So it's also recipe by recipe. And I don't know whose recipe you're following, but, you know, it's also a habit that you have. If, let's say you make a lot of infusions and it's been your experience that these
+
+[14:28] things like move around and aren't really stabilized for, um, you know, like a couple of months, then you just start writing into all of your recipes to do that, whether or not you've actually tested it for that particular item or
+
+[14:39] not. You see what I'm saying? And the same thing, by the way, goes for every recipe that cooks right,
+
+[14:45] chefs right, or even, you know, like bloggers or anything like this. Once you have some experience in your life that leads you to believe, uh, you know, that X, Y, or Z procedure is what you need to do, then even if you don't maybe even sometimes do it yourself, you just include it in every recipe you ever write so that uh, nobody comes back and like, maybe
+
+[15:05] they can tell people to age it and it needs to be age, even if you haven't tested
+
+[15:09] it. I swear. like I do this. You know what I mean? It's just a sad fact of the way the world works that you have to present these complete recipes to people for everything, for foods, for drinks, and you have to guard against these kind of attacks or
+
+[15:23] worse, like having someone think that your recipe is bad. And so you include things in recipes that you haven't actually tested on that particular recipe. Or if you have tested, you haven't tested an AB where you left that step out. It's just it's the nature of the beast. Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much. All right, let's know how it works. Talk to later. All right, bye. So back to this cordial. So where we left off was this. If you take 50% lime juice, right? Now lime juice is, uh, we clarify first, obviously, it's 6% acidity, okay? And now you add sugar, you add the equal weight of sugar. Assuming that the lime juice has no sugar in
+
+[16:00] it, which is a little bit of a lie. You have a 50-50 simple syrup that's acidic, right? It's a cordial, cordial. Now, what's the inherent problem in that? since you weren't listening to me, I'll tell you. Right? The problem is that if what you want, if
+
+[16:17] most, a lot of the drinks that I make have roughly equal amounts
+
+[16:22] of, uh, one to one simple syrup and, uh, like lime or lemon juice in it, right? one to one. If anything, there's a little more acidity, a little more lime juice, or a little more sugar than there
+
+[16:32] is, sorry, a little more lime juice, or a little more lemon juice than there is simple syrup, right? Right. Problem is, if you put a half ounce of that cordial into a drink, it contains the same amount of sugar as a half ounce
+
+[16:46] of simple syrup, right? Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. Does it contain the same amount of acid as a half ounce of lime juice? No? No, why? It's more? Because it's more. No, because there's more sugar in there. The sugar is taking up some of the space. So you have to add some extra acidity in the form of citric and malic
+
+[17:05] acid back to the cordial to get the acidity such that it has the actual acidity of lime juice. So what we do is we dope this orange juice, normally you have to add 32 grams of citric acid and 20 grams of malic acid to every liter of orange juice to have it have the same acidity as lime.
+
+[17:26] But you have to add a little more to make up for the space that the sugar is taking
+
+[17:31] up, and then when you pour an acid adjusted or double adjusted in the case of
+
+[17:35] orange cordial, every half ounce of that stuff is the same as pouring half ounce of simple syrup and a half ounce of like acid, like lime juice.
+
+[17:46] Uh, But you've only, you've added a half inch ounce less of total liquid. it? Get it? Got it? Good. You know what else? I had a question about New Orleans. I just deal with the question about New Orleans now? You didn't do anything interesting? No cooking interesting? Nothing? Ninda? Nada? Did you leave the city? No. You were trapped in the city with this like dead heat? You couldn't borrow your buddy's car that you paid to fix? All right. So, uh, Steve from Los Angeles is going to uh, New Orleans and he said, uh, I'm going to be in New Orleans this coming weekend. Unfortunately, I'm missing out on Tales of the Cocktail. Are there any new, new, the key here is these new bars or restaurants you saw this year that I should check out? Steve from Los Angeles? Well, I actually only went to one new restaurant because I only had really, I had 2 dinners there. One was a spirited award where it's not like a normal, a spirited dinner where it tells
+
+[18:41] a cocktail, you go and like it's paired with like, it's not a normal dinner, right? But the 2nd one I went to was at a new place. Get this. It's I didn't even know he had done this. You know, John Besh out in New Orleans. Yeah, so John Besh teamed up with Ron Sanchez, you know, from here, and they have a restaurant called Johnny Sanchez, Johnny Sanchez.
+
+[19:00] And Miles Landrum, who is Nick Wong,
+
+[19:04] our, you know, one of my favorite interns of all time, who's at the French culinary is now at Sambar, is they went to school
+
+[19:10] together, and so he's the exec there. So I went there. It was good. You know what they had that I like? First of all, for some reason in New Orleans, like ever since Cochon, which is like one of the famous, you know, favorite restaurants that we, you know, go to down there, like pig ears and
+
+[19:23] like they're big on pig ears and pig parts. So, you know, Chilekillis, right? So these guys, instead of using tortillas, they do like a pig ear
+
+[19:32] chile killis. What do you think? I don't know. What do you think? I thought it was good. What? No, pig ears. I love pig ears. And I love chili killers. So like doing an interpretation, like a chili killer's interpretation with pig ears. I thought was good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, that we also had, uh, we had some squash blossoms and we were, we were, we were saying how ridiculously, uh, you know, how squash blossoms
+
+[19:57] here. It's like so sad when you go down in Mexico and there's 1000000000s and 1000000000s of squash blossoms for almost nothing, but it was good, very good. Yeah. So that's the only new place. I recommend. I can recommend it. I didn't get to go to, um, uh, what's it called? Shia, which is not named after Shia LeBeuf, which is the place where they make their own Peter. everyone goes crazy for it. and get to go. You know what I like? Do you like tourist things, Nastasia? sometimes? Do you know what? Like, everyone, when they go down there, there's a place called, I don't even remember the name of it, I go to the central
+
+[20:24] grocery, that they make them, the muffaletta, that's the one that all the tourists go to, right? And all the locals, they're like, you're a jerk. Why are you going to the place that all the tourists go? You got to have our mufflet, R, this, that, blah, blah, blah. is a sandwich. They make in New Orleans and it's all about the chopped up olives and, you know, pickles and stuff that goes in the, in the, in the, it's all about
+
+[20:42] that with this giant, giant, huge loaf of bread with the sesamees on top. It looks like a giant overgrown sesame bun with like, you know, the meats and the cheeses and then the chopped up olives. olives at Pepis and like pickled stuff on it, right? But you know what? Freaking, it's good. A crap on you. I enjoy it. Crap on all of you haters out there who just because, like, you know, since, you know, since whenever this has been the place people go, So what? Still good. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Here's another thing. I don't know whether you knew this. New Orleans, Louisiana is possibly the, the, like, apogee, the height of personal injury lawyer advertising.
+
+[21:26] I turned on, I was waking up in the morning game dress, so I turned on the TV, and it was one of these shows where everyone's trying to figure out who the dad is, and nobody knows. There's like 8 guys up on stage and nobody knows which ones the dad and they have the paternity test and there's all sorts of screaming and yelling and bouncers and stuff like that. Mori Povich. And, uh, and the commercials for the personal injuries attorneys are just amazing.
+
+[21:50] It's like almost like it's an art form. My favorite, there's a, there's a guy in Morris Bart, which is the one that, remember it was in the news a while ago that this kid was obsessed with this personal injury attorney and they wanted him to come to his birthday party, but he wouldn't come, but he sent a life-size cut out of himself
+
+[22:06] and like a pen. You know what I mean? So this kid's birthday party. But there's a there's an attorney there named Chip Forstall, who's got like this like polished, like bald
+
+[22:16] head and go online. and look up Chip Forstall videos. He's hired all of these local, Louisiana, uh, musicians to sing various renditions of chip
+
+[22:30] force, chip force doll. He's a man of integrity, and he wants to be your attorney. He knows the law, Chip Forstall, takes care of it all. personal injuries, big or small. But he do it, they do it in Dixieland jazz. There's a rap one that's not on the line yet because that's the one I saw down there. There's like, there's like some sort of like Mardi Gras version. They have like, they have a gospel version of Chit Forstall, takes care of it all with like real musicians. It's the craziest thing. Like, I went down there thinking that Salino and Barnes was kind of the height of personal injury attorney
+
+[23:01] advertisement because Nastasi and I, to get an idea of what our actual life is like. We never discuss anything serious. We just will sit down, silence for like an hour or so, like staring into the distance with dead eyes, and then all of a sudden we'll just start singing the Selino and Barn song. Selena and Barnes, right? Injury attorneys, right? Give me some. 800 what? 777777? No. 888-8888. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll sing it. Call eight. Anyway, so anyway, so I feel bad, yet another thing, that New York, you think you're the best at something, and you go somewhere else, and it turns out that we are mere
+
+[23:38] infants. Children, like weaklings, when it comes to personal injury lawyer advertisement. And I found out, I think, why, in New Orleans. I looked it up. I was so intrigued by it. I looked it up. And when it turns out that in New Orleans, and if Parish is down there in Louisiana, the judges that are hearing these
+
+[23:58] cases are elected, right? Right. So they need to have campaign and get this. Unlike any other state in the union, the threshold for a jury trial for this stuff is $50,000. So any case that's below $50,000, let's say $49,999, people like Chip
+
+[24:17] Forstall get to go directly in front of a judge who they're allowed to contribute to their campaigns regularly and they need to get elected and be like, hey, yo, judge, why don't we settle this for like
+
+[24:26] $4995? You know what I mean? Like 49 k, then, you know, I'll give you some money. We'll all get out of here. This guy will get his money, boom. Hence, you have such awesome advertisements. I think it's worth it. Anyway. I don't know. little bit, a little bit of legal aside for. Wait, you want to take a break? We'll drink some meat and we'll come back with more cooking issues. Yeah, we got to call her then, too. Oh, we got a caller? I take the collar and then we'll go to the. you want to know? All right, call her, you're on the air. Hi, how you doing? Doing all right. This is Shane here. from Dublin, Ireland. Oh, hey. Good to hear from you. How's it going over there? Great. It's gray and cloudy as usual. My favorite. love that. Yeah, grand cloudy, man. I wish I could live in a place that was always gray and cloudy. Yeah. Listen, I love the show. You guys are great. I've learned a lot Thanks. What do you got for us? What are you calling about? I'm, um, I'm trying, I'm looking at uh, restaurants equipment and uh, I'm doing a lot of low temperature cooking and I want to um, get some equipment in, I
+
+[25:32] can't, for searing, for searing meats and vegetables and I can't use charcoal because fire restrictions and it's
+
+[25:39] difficult. I just wanted to know if you have any recommendations for, for other equipment that would be
+
+[25:46] good, like a, a cast iron pan is too small for my, for the volume I'll be doing. So, like, I looked at induction planches and things like this. I don't know if you have any recommendations for good searing equipment that's not charcoal.
+
+[26:01] It's hard. So are you allowed to have, and I don't know what the economics are there, but do you have natural gas or
+
+[26:07] not even natural gas? Uh, I might have natural gas. I'm trying to get the lines installed. So I might and I might not. I'm interested in both natural gas and electric. Okay, so the deal is, I mean, anytime you're going to do like heavy searing work on low temperature, no matter what the source of the heat is, you're going to make a crap ton of smoke. And so you're gonna need, like, regardless of what the regulations are, anything else, you're gonna need really good ventilation. So that's just a given. I'm just going to stipulate that right there. Okay. It's it's
+
+[26:46] hard. So like in the in New York, where now like they allow certain things they didn't used to, what everyone used to do in the
+
+[26:52] back in the day, was they would have these, uh, these gas, these gas grill situations, right? And then they would just, uh, the manufacturers knew you would do this. We would just throw wood on top of the gas and just get it completely roaring. But then whenever, obviously, someone's coming in to inspect, it's just a gas, it's just gas. You know what I mean? And you would throw on wood in quotes for smoking. You know what I mean? And then that would, that's how you kind of get around it. those guys would jack the heat um that way. Um, a lot in terms of your, I mean, if you can get gas, and you're going to do a lot of this work, I would invest in like a deck
+
+[27:30] broiler and the deck broilers are just like a salamander, but they're stacked.
+
+[27:36] Like, it's like, it's like 3 salamander stacked together, and it's much more than 3 times as
+
+[27:42] powerful because if you've ever used a salamander, you just have that sweet spot right in the middle, and then it kind of radiates out, whereas like the deck
+
+[27:48] broiler, You have a giant sweet spot, and you can, they really scream. They really scream. And so I would recommend something like that. But that's only going to work kind of in an overfired situation. So if you're looking to finish, um, you know, uh, and you want to go electric, I don't have a lot of experience doing, um, hardcore searing on, uh, I've never used, for instance, an induction, um,
+
+[28:14] plancha. I've never used it. Um, and, uh, so I can't really, you know, I can't really, um, speak to it. I'd say that think a lot about what you're, any electric thing that you use. I've never used, and I've used some of them. I've never used an electric broiler that was worth spit. You know what I mean? Um, there's just, there's not enough, there's not enough um, power output. I mean, the good news about using induction is it's so efficient in terms of heat delivery to
+
+[28:45] the to the pan or the or the ploncher or the griddle, if it's specifically built that way, that, um, you know, even though, you know, you only have a certain amount of power you can suck out of the wall, it's providing a lot of that power to actually, uh, to heat the food item that
+
+[29:00] you're that you're talking about. Now, when you're doing low temperature cooking, as I'm sure you're aware, one of the main issues on the finish is
+
+[29:10] that unlike a traditional pan sear that you do before you're cooking or if you're
+
+[29:17] going to pan sear and then finish in the oven, traditional style. The meat, when you put it in, is pretty or whatever it is, is pretty floppy and can make good contact with the
+
+[29:27] service of the pan. or the griddle or the whatever. And what that means is you get a nice, even sear off on the thing. And it makes a lot of smoke. However, if you're doing a post sear and you put that same piece of meat onto a griddle, then you're
+
+[29:42] going to have very dark marks exactly where you're touching the pan, but unless you have a pretty hardcore weight on it, right?
+
+[29:48] Uh, you're not going to have an even, um, an even Siri closet. So how do we get around that? We paint a lot of oil on the meat and we try to hope that there's some sort of connection between, you know, bridging the oil to the
+
+[30:01] meat. But then as soon as you do that, you now have a lot, lot more smoke than you did back
+
+[30:08] in back in the day, back before, you know, back, you know, old style. So you can't really, you can get it to work that way, but you can't really win that way. And what happens is, is if you're sitting there in a kitchen and you have only screaming pans, you're constantly having to wipe it out, because just the amount of oil that you have to put on
+
+[30:27] is just, you know, kind of intense. Now, some people, uh, you know, like we used to, when we were doing duck breasts, when we were cooking low temp, we made very, very sure that when we put them in the bag, we flattened it all
+
+[30:38] out so that then when we took the duck breast and put it in the pan afterwards to do the crisp up on the skin, that it was all going to be in
+
+[30:44] contact and it would render right. But if you don't, you're pretty much hosed, right? Some pieces of some products, and I know that, you know, people get mad at me about it. sometimes sometimes the best way to do is to deep fry it. You know, if you you deep fry it, you get like instant sear all the way
+
+[31:02] around, and the problem with it is, is that nobody notices as long as your oil is impeccable. But when you do a fry finish on something and like a steak and the oil is even a little bit over, it's
+
+[31:17] like, it gets kind of, it gets kind of ugly because they start to taste that oil on the outside. If, um, if not, then as soon as you pull it out of the fryer, if the oil is good, you have, you know, someone
+
+[31:28] wrap a towel around it, get the excess, uh, uh, uh, fat, you know, grease off the outside. And by the time you cut it, no one ever knows that it's been in oil. They just want to know why the crust is so nice. That is particularly useful on things like lamb racks, which are very hard to post
+
+[31:44] finish and hard to get a nice crust on the outside without overcooking using low temperature kind of
+
+[31:50] techniques. So in my mind, things like lamb racks, big bone in pieces like that work extremely well in the deep fryer, but you just have to, I mean,
+
+[32:00] like people don't like to think about it, and also they don't like, you have to make sure that your oil is impeccable.
+
+[32:07] So those are kind of what I'd use. There's no question that an induction, an induction range can get cast iron, pans, hot enough. The problem with the cast iron pan on the induction range is, and I think we talked about this last week or the week before, is you really have to, um,
+
+[32:23] not, like, have it screaming right away because you'll notice on most induction things that you that you use. I mean, maybe the commercial ones, I haven't checked their burner pattern, but the burner pattern on inductions is relatively
+
+[32:35] small. And so they tend to work well on things that have a big,
+
+[32:41] fast heat conductive surface. So like the aluminum sandwich pans that have like the slug in them that the induction works with,
+
+[32:48] that the stainless that the induction works with, and then they have an aluminum, big billet, and that aluminum spreads the heat out relatively quickly. So you don't get major, major hotspots with the induction with
+
+[33:00] it with cast iron. You're going to tend to heat the local area and it's going to take longer for it to be total even. Now, that point is moot if you have it on the induction thing for like 5 minutes and heating up. But then, you know, you have something that's screaming hot all the
+
+[33:17] time, and unless you're going to chill it in between or let it cool down in between orders, which isn't really feasible in like a heavy environment, like when you're going to get an order
+
+[33:27] in, you don't necessarily want to have to keep your pan going up and down and up and down. So most, you know, most people want, like, if they're having a griddle, they want a high heat griddle, uh, uh, you know,
+
+[33:36] that, or a planchet that's running now. You know, the advantage there, uh, you know, and the reason plonches are so good is they can stay really hot, but remember, plonches grain the grease down and out. So, you know, a quick, you know, you take your your spatula and you scrape off the extra grease and now you're not smoking up your whole kitchen with the extra grease from before while you're waiting for the next order to come in.
+
+[33:55] But that said, plonches aren't designed for searing meats that have already been cooked.
+
+[34:01] You can with like a little squeezy bottle of oil. So you take a little squeezy bottle of oil and then, you know, hit it and it can work, but you just have to get some practice. If you have a buddy that has one, I would definitely go to use it before you invest in it to make sure it fits your cooking
+
+[34:15] style. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So just quickly then, on the, I mean, I see a lot of, a lot of planches and units on giving different surface temperatures, like 230 degrees. This is Celsius and 250 degrees and for a conduction heat source. Do you know what kind of, what kind of temperature I'll be looking for for a post? I'll do a priest here to help the unevenness of the meat issues, hopefully. And I'll do a post here. I did, so on the cooking issues blog. I think it's there. I might not have put that picture up and I'll go look at it again. I once did a test where I was actually testing the the temperature of the cast iron during the thing to look at what, and this is on a standard old cast iron pan, you know, like maybe 50, 60 years old, trying to figure
+
+[35:04] out like what the best initial temperature is. Greg Blonder, actually, who called into the show, his his blog, you know, he did a test and he has a thing, I think, with
+
+[35:15] me, Head Goldwin when he was on the show. Uh, you know, he did a test with a probe underneath showing that in most cases the temperature drops very quickly right at the surface. Um, you know, because obviously it has to boil water off. Um, and so, you know, he seems to think he seems to think it doesn't matter that you get that hot. My research that I did shows that an initial very high heat in the pan does help.
+
+[35:39] So I was getting the stuff up into the range of like 500
+
+[35:42] or something which is, which is, uh, see, 400 is 360 is 200,
+
+[35:49] right? So I was getting, I was probably getting up to like, yeah, to, I was probably getting up in, you know, closer to, what were you saying? like 260 to, what were you saying? Uh, they were, it ranges from 220 to maybe 250 is the ones I've seen.
+
+[36:04] Yeah, I mean, look, I never, the ability to go hotter is always better because you can always turn it down, right? But my, you know, it was, I had to wait until these things got very, very hot before I started seeing diminishing returns.
+
+[36:18] I mean, eventually you get, you know, obviously, what's called the Liden Frost effect, and it takes, you know, a little longer for it even to know that it's searing, right? That's like I can stick my hand in liquid nitrogen and pull it out because um, because of vapor forms. But in actuality, what tends to happen is, is that your plancha is a slug
+
+[36:35] of metal, you put the meat down on it, and like you get, it chills it right there eventually. And then you have to wait for the heat to come back in order to get up to its temperature. So they're storing heat a little bit. I know some people have moved to very, very thin plunches, which work almost, I guess, like a Mexican
+
+[36:52] Comal, and those things don't store as much energy. And so then they're relying a lot more on how much energy you're combusting in heat to get their incredibly quick recovery rather than a thermal mass that allows it to
+
+[37:04] recover. So you can kind of play either way. But I'll say this, and I might have said this on air. But I remember it was well over a decade ago. I interviewed Jose Andreas, relatively soon after he had opened Atlantico, and I was doing an article on planches for food arts magazine at the time, and he said, I said to him,
+
+[37:23] and, you know, I knew all about planches, and I knew that they had this, like, you know, a central heat, and then it would spread out, and it was colder, and so people could then, you know, spatially arrange the stuff that wanted lower heat, over on the edge of the plancha, and stuff that wanted higher heat or searing heat in the middle of the plancha, right?
+
+[37:38] Sounds familiar. That's how planch is supposed to work. And he says, no, I just buy a griddle, and I set the, and so, you know, the American griddles have like the one he
+
+[37:47] had had 4 zones, 4 different burners, right? So I'm assuming he sets one side, uh, high, and then the other side low, and then he has a gradient, he can move
+
+[37:57] back because that's the way most people who use griddles. That's how they think, right? So they had this spatial organization of heat, much like a French flat top,
+
+[38:05] you know, and he was like, oh, no, absolutely not. I set the entire griddle to one temperature. I was like, why are we freaking crazy? And he's like, no, I write all of my recipes such that everything only requires one temperature. And I was like, oh, all right. You know what I mean? And that kind of makes sense. So when you're doing a lot of low temperature work, you're not going to need a lot of these little kind of warming zones or places you can let things ride. You're going to want a big, even screaming mother of an object that you can just crank with. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Cool. All righty. Listen, why don't you tweet or call on in, let us know what's going on. But definitely, it's a huge recommendation. Don't trust anyone on their sales salesmanship on buying equipment. Go use this stuff. Everybody sells you a bill of goods and it's almost impossible, especially when you're shopping for something that you're going to have to cook with for years and years. And this goes whether you're going to go buy a combi oven or anything like this. Anyone will sell you anything, and everyone sounds good, and a lot of equipment is good, but the things I would ask your friends or anyone
+
+[39:06] around. How often does that sucker break with a piece of electrical equipment, especially if you're
+
+[39:10] going to go induction, like ask a bunch of people that have used it, not for like a
+
+[39:14] week or for like, you know, as Jeffrey Steingarten says, like, you know, all good knives are good, just like puppies, right? It's like you want to know, how is that thing after a year? How many service calls do they have to have? And if it breaks, like how fast are they going to come in and fix it? Because you don't want to build your business around, you know, some sort of
+
+[39:32] induction range and then it's going to die every week and a half . Now, old induction units used to die constantly, right? The reason being that no one had adequate cooling in them, and they would try to do things like put an induction range over an oven, and the heat would get so
+
+[39:47] intentionally electronics that they would just fry. Now, I think the modern inductions of the past, you know, six,
+
+[39:53] 7 years, they probably dealt with a lot of that, you know, fixed a lot of that problem, but you want to make sure that that's not going to be an issue for you because you don't want to be down unless you have a spare.
+
+[40:02] Also, you know, as, you know, as they say here, you got to make sure it's got, you know, enough power. You know what I mean? You got to make sure that you like cooking with it. And so I highly recommend finding one. Any good big equipment manufacturer has someone that they can send you to to let you cook on it. You know what I'm saying? And then you, you know, like, you know, they'll know who bought it in your area and you can go check it out and see whether or not it
+
+[40:29] suits, it suits your cooking style. You not want to be saddled with a system like that and regret it in 5 or 6 months
+
+[40:37] because, you know, you might have to live with it for years. Yeah. All right. Well, hope that's cellful. Very helpful. Thanks a lot. All right, thanks. All right, thanks. Let's go to a quick commercial break. and I are going to crack some meat and come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[41:11] Americans throw away 58 billion disposable cups every year. A lot of those cups will still be around long after you're dead. Kind of dark, I know, but I'm Greg from Capau, and we decided to do something about it. We created the only glass travel mug that's 100% US made. You can check it out alongside our complete line of everyday reusables at
+
+[41:36] kapow.com. CUPPOW.com. And we are back. All right, so David, tell me, David, you want to come taste this mead? Absolutely. And then bring a cup and then tell me a little bit about it. I know nothing about it. So I'll just come and taste it. You come and taste it. And while you're tasting it, a shot, a big shout out, thank you for Neil Wallace for donating to Heritage Radio Network on behalf of the
+
+[42:08] cooking issues broadcast. We appreciate it. All right, so while we're waiting for David to bring a cup in here to taste this. Maybe I should I'll take care of this call. Oh, there's a call question. Do I have a call? No, no. Okay, question. So, uh, oh, before I do that, Russ, I'm not going to let you, uh, let me tell you deal with Russ first. Remind me to talk to you about Harold McGee and this thing he's
+
+[42:30] interesting, right, Nastasia? You remembering? It's gonna have a word that you're not gonna like, which I like. Okay. Yeah. Russ writes in from California. Hey, hey guys. I'm 23, basically broke and love espresso. been there, right? I mean, like, actually, I didn't really like espresso when I was 23. I didn't really like it until I was. Almost 30. I didn't drink coffee in college. I drank tea. What about you? Uh, I drank coffee in college. Yeah? Did you like tea or just coffee? Just coffee. Really? Is it because all those people in California drink tea and you hated those people? No? Just coffee head? All right. As I understand it, espresso machine quality comes down to pressure and temperature control. I'm glad that you didn't say 100% stability and you said control because back in the day when I was 1st starting, everyone thought that the best of everything was complete consistency across the board, right?
+
+[43:28] So you want the temperature to be completely consistent across the shot. You want the pressure to be completely consistent across the shot. And in fact, we now know that, um, that's not the case, and that in general, most people prefer, um, shots where there's gradients
+
+[43:44] in in those, uh, things over the course of the shot. Not everyone, most people. And the trick is being able to control and repeat it. So like certain of the large commercial machines were,
+
+[43:56] uh, you know, just made genius cups of espresso, not necessarily because they were, um, they kept everything the same throughout the
+
+[44:06] shop, but just they repeatedly delivered the same profile of temperature and pressure.
+
+[44:09] Anyway, okay, a little bit of an aside. Not really the side. About the question, right? Unusually, it's actually about the question and not about like the price of eggs or something like that. Uh, Supposedly, Ranchilio makes a machine that does a good job of this for about $700, and the people of the interweb seem to believe that everything cheaper is crap.
+
+[44:26] I'm assuming you're talking about the Ranchillio Rocky, uh, the Ranchillio Rocky is, it's a good piece of equipment. I have one. Um, it is, uh, the reason people uh, like it is that it, the bones of it are good, right? It's got a good boiler on it. It uses a good porta filter. Um, and so like that stuff is relatively uh, robust. Also, it's like an old school, like American car in that when you open up the hood, There's not a lot of junk and garbage inside of there, so you can pretty much do whatever you want. So it became very early on, like, you know, well, well over a decade ago. The machine to mod out, right? So the problem. And so then, you know, people with PID controls in, people put dual PID controls in, some people would add a 2nd boiler to it. There's a lot of stuff out there, and there's a lot of people that have already walked down the road. In fact, you can buy kids to mod it. And I have to say that a PID controlled, uh, Rocky, I mean, sorry, uh, Sylvia. Did I say Rocky before? I meant Sylvia, Rocky is the grinder. Ranchilio, Sylvia, is it's a good machine. It makes a good cup of coffee. It is a pain in the behind if you also like milk in your coffee. I don't, but my wife's a milking coffee person, and because it's not dual boiler, you have to always like turn it on to steam, let it steam up, and then you have to get the temperature back down by pushing water through the group head, and then let it stabilize again, and then
+
+[45:53] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, if you're making, you're 23 and you're broke. If you're also single and or and or nobody in your house likes anything but espresso, uh, the, the Sylvia is good, but apparently it's too expensive, uh, right? Because you're basically broke. All right. Now, so then you say, you took a question a while back about the rock, R okay, espresso maker, which goes for $150. I can't remember what you said about it. Well, I haven't used it, right? I can't remember what you said about it, but the consensus seems to be that it is possible to get a good espresso from it. However, it is difficult, if not impossible to do so consistently, as the pressure is regulated by hand. I'm considering buying one and adding a spring to the system to regulate the pressure. I have a machine shop at my disposal and can do this with relative ease, but I wanted to get your take on whether or not it would work
+
+[46:36] well potentially before wasting the time and money involved. Also, any tips on looking into a professional espresso machine at auction for almost no money as you did would be much appreciated. Thanks for us from California. All right. So 1st of all, let me tackle these in reverse orders. So buying something at an auction is a really good way to go, what you need to find is an auction where nobody else there wants a piece of equipment.
+
+[46:58] So, um, usually the way you do that is you find something. So if you go on eBay, you can buy an espresso machine commercial that is broken for some reason or another. And then if you're willing to fix it or go through the trouble of fixing it, then you can do it. I would make 100% sure that the parts are available. Like get to know someone because parts on an espresso machine can get very, very expensive very quickly. But for instance, let's say there's an espresso machine out there and the pump is broken. Most people who service espresso machines know how easy it is to get a new pump. And so you wouldn't get a big discount because they would buy it and just fix the pump rather than give you something for free, but maybe you find some knucklehead who has a machine and just wants to get rid of it.
+
+[47:36] at an auction. So what you need to go into a restaurant auction is patience. The unfortunate thing is back when I was, you know, starting in the espresso world. It was, uh, you know, people on the on the web, the general consensus was that home people, you should just forget about making espresso, right?
+
+[47:55] And the only people that were making, uh, espresso at home with machines that they liked were the people who were using the, um, uh, the
+
+[48:03] Europiccolos, the the hand uh, lever machines. Now, um, so there you have it. The rock, I guess it's pronounced rock, what it is, is like a dual, what would you describe this motion, Nastasia, this? Um, like, the Hulk, when the Hulk's going, ah! And he lifts up by his shoulders and then tries to make his pecs huge by going down, it's that kind of emotion. You're grabbing 2 handles, and you're pushing down to provide the pressure, and you're pushing a piston down into a column of water that's heated, and
+
+[48:35] then in through the ground espresso. Now, in actuality. Uh, some of the best, in fact, still the best cups of coffee that I've had,
+
+[48:46] uh, espresso have been out at some of the best, have been out of lever machines, and they're working on uh, springs. So springs are good. The problem with modifying the spring on that machine is
+
+[48:56] that how would you do it? You have to pull up on it, right? And then if you have the spring pulling, the easiest way to do it would be to have springs pulling the handles down, but then you're going to have a difficult
+
+[49:06] time levering them up and then holding them there for the infusion section and then letting them go.
+
+[49:12] So it's possible that you could, I guess, make some sort of crossbow
+
+[49:16] scenario where you just lift it up and then crank something up and use that to kind of pull it down.
+
+[49:21] Yeah, it looks kind of like a bow motion. Dave, you got like 30 seconds. Oh, geez. All right, all right, all right. listen. Listen, I'll get back. Russ, we'll deal again next week because I'll also talk to you. You need to spend money on a grinder. We need to worry about Grinder as much as you do about machine. So I'll get back to that. So tell me a little bit about the meat. David, tell me quickly about the meat. It's delicious. notes of popcorn at the end. Yeah, it's not as dry as it, but it's not cloyingly sweet either. I think it's good would have this one after dinner. What about you, Nastasia? Nice little spice to it. No, what are your shoes? Some flavor, some flavor in it. I don't like the spicy one. I like it. But you don't think I think it's from the, I think it's from the, that's the honey. That's used that's the note of the honey. Give a shout out to the company again, David. Noah's Vice Metery in New Jersey. Noah's Vice Medery. Thank you. And I enjoy it. I going to have some more during lunch. And on the way out, let me just say this. I was with Harold McGee. All of you go on the New York botanical garden. Go to their corpse flower cam. There's a rare corpse flower that's about to bloom any day now, and hopefully Harold and I are going to go. It smells like rotting flesh. It's a close relative of the same thing that makes conjak. And the name of it is ready for Nastasia? The name of the genus. It's the largest inflorescence in the world in the world, a morphophallus titanium, a morphophallus
+
+[50:37] titanium. Because if your phallus is going to be poorly formed, you at least want it to be Titanic, cooking issues.
+
+[50:49] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Quieres mejo internet, cox internet de tresientas megas, tienne las belocidades, rapidas y con fiables que buscas,
+
+[0:07] Perfecto para streaming y gaming y trabajardes de casa. Todo, por solo quuerente cinco, dolla resalme escondo regas cox mobile. Includia quipo de Wi-Fi, iguerantilla de precio de dos años entu plan. Nues peres, Gambia te oi a cox. The quiere cops mobile gig unlimited, carampier de pleciono, including cuestos cargos, belucidad de datos, mobiles, reduces, esposa vente qui casalmes. I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives.
+
+[0:36] I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. Because I love getting together with people in the industry. I like hosting my show because to me, it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious. Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling. Please become a member today at heritageradionetwork.org. Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley
+
+[1:08] winery committed to respecting the soil and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:34] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from, I don't know, like, you know, around 12, 12, 15, something like
+
+[1:47] this, from a bird's Pichuria in Bushwick. Oh, yeah. Today we have already in the studio, as usual, Nastasia, the
+
+[2:00] Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Good. Yeah? You got David in the booth? What up? Nothing. Uh, we're waiting on, so, by the way, I was having one of my usual
+
+[2:10] unpleasant uh, uh, text exchanges with Nastasia earlier this morning, and I was saying, I think we should change your name from the hammer to
+
+[2:17] the to the pit bull because it's the biting for no reason. Look, oh, oh, I shouldn't go that way. Like, biting for no reason. I shouldn't make a joke at pit bull's expense. Yeah, because do you know that pit bulls like are like so discriminated against that basically in the New
+
+[2:32] York, and this is what made me think of it, in the New York City shelter system, right? Almost, I mean, I don't know about the public shelters, but in like the private shelters, like, by the way, I just got another dog
+
+[2:42] over they, over the weekend. Nastasia is doing her, her, uh,
+
+[2:47] like moron headshake. Is that the moron headshake? The moron headshake. I mean, it's not a, she's not mad at me. It's not like a vegan face. It just a moron headshake. Anyways, so I went to go get this dog and apparently any small dog can get adopted here. any uh, it basically pits can't get adopted and pit mixes. And so, you know, if you can, you should adopt a pit mix. Why didn't you? I needed a like, look, I already have a dog, a large dog. The odds that like, I would, I would get the okay, get the high sign for adopting another large dog, roughly
+
+[3:26] zero. You know, I think my kids like are old enough now to take on a dog that has some territorial, you know,
+
+[3:33] like traits, whereas like when they were a lot younger, you know, you get a little nervous of having any kind of territorial dog
+
+[3:39] around. So the lab was, which is also sheltered dog is awesome, but like, um, At this
+
+[3:44] point, they can handle it, but I, you know, I couldn't handle the big. So it's this miniature, like they, I said, what do you think the mix is? The guy goes, Heinz 57? Because it's just like a mixed mutt. But anyway, if any of you are in the New York area and want to go to a shelter, I highly recommend Sean
+
+[4:00] Casey Animal Rescue in Brooklyn. You can just go walk dogs. You know, you show them your driver's license and you just walk dogs, you don't need to take one. But if you're a dog person and you show up and you start walking dogs, be aware that there's a high likelihood that you'll end up with one. Do you know what I mean? Because they're cute. Dogs are dogs are cute. This guy looks like a little miniature version of my lab, even though it's like, I don't think there was any lab in it. So Dax, my young son, was walking the small dog, and I was walking the big dog, and it's like a mini, me walking a mini version of my other dog. was kind of, it was kind of crazy. Nutty. What is that called? Mini me? No, there's like a thing for that. There's a thing for a shrunken version of you and your dog walking next to you down the street. No. Man, they didn't teach me that in vocabulary school. Hey, Dave, we got a caller on the line. John Carson, who is Chef Emily Peterson's father. Has a question for you? Wow, nice. How you doing? Welcome to the show. What's up? I make cocktail sauce for shrimp and oysters and that kind of stuff. We use we use Heinz ketchup and used to use gold horseradish. And there's a assortment of other ingredients, which you may or may not need to know
+
+[5:16] for this, but when you would make the cock, It would be about the consistency of ketchup. And you could put that in the refrigerator, overnight, and take it out the next day, and it would still be the same consistency change. Right? A friend of mine gave me homemade horseradish that he makes. And I did everything exactly the same. When you put the cocktail sauce in the
+
+[5:44] refrigerator, 24 hours later, it has coagulated. It's as it's like as solid as Jell-O. And why is that happening? That is very interesting. I don't know. So go, so like goals, I haven't purchased goals in a while. For those of you that don't remember, golds is like it's the tall, skinny bottle, uh, and it comes in either with
+
+[6:07] beat or without beat, uh, horseradish, uh, grated that you get in, um, in, in supermarkets. like the brand that like we all grew up with. I'm trying to remember the label on golds. Does is the gold have anything in it or is it just shredded horseradish? Do they vinegar it? There's vinegar in it. Emily actually read the ingredients, and there's nothing that, and she thought it could have something to do with the, and in the, and that the acidity level in the homemade, horseradish was different, but I don't, you know, I don't know, but this
+
+[6:44] is, uh, the guy who makes the horse. He knew that was going to happen. And he said, it's not as bad as
+
+[6:50] if you use Hunt's ketchup, but, you know... Why would you use hunts? for fire hide. Yeah, well, here's here's my here's my only theory. Does your friend not add anything? No offense to Hunts, but I mean, Heinz is the ketchup, please. Anyway. Right. Does your friend not add anything to the horseradish? No, it's his and his horseradish. It's very, it's horseradish. There's no beets added, so it's horseradish, vinegar, pepper,
+
+[7:20] salt, and a little bit of sugar, and that's it. See, here's what I, here's what I'm thinking. My guess, and this is just a guess. is that there's a lower liquid content in your buddy's
+
+[7:33] horseradish and straight up that if you add a little bit of vinegar when you did it, that it would all turn out. There are 2 things that I think could be happening here. I don't believe gold's horseradish is pasteurized, but I'm not sure. In which case, if it's like a pectin leaking thing, that could be an issue, but I don't know. Um, My guess is it's a liquid thing. Ketchup is very, very, is basically, it's what's called like a thixotropic, uh,
+
+[7:57] liquid, so that under under sheer, uh, under sheer ketchup is acts like a liquid, and when it's not under
+
+[8:06] sheer, it acts like a solid, right? And my guess is, is that the horseradish, is, um, is that horseradish with a certain amount of liquid, keeps that thixotropic balance the same. Because remember, horserash is also fibrous, so it's going to add some stability, uh, or could add stability, almost like fiberglass to it. And then if the liquid level is a little bit higher, It'll go liquidy very quickly, as ketchup does. And if the liquid balance is lower, then it'll set up even firmer. By the way, we now have, in the studio, can also win, weigh in on your question. Harold McGee, the master blaster of science in the as it relates to the delicious. So Harold, the question we have on, see whether you have anything else. I know you heard the tail end of what. I said, hey, hey, I heard here you heard the tail end of what I was saying there, but the question was we have a horseradish. We have a cocktail sauce made with everything else remains the same. Heinz ketchup and, you know, whatever other, you know, flavor adjustments are added to
+
+[9:02] it. And either the store bought golds brand, which is the Easter coast brand, which you may remember, might be West Coast too,
+
+[9:08] a prepared horseradish versus someone else's homemade horseradish, and homemade horseradish makes it set solid into a gel. And my guess is it's just that the cocktail sauce is extremely sensitive to liquid balance.
+
+[9:20] Huh. Sets into a dell. That's a new one on me. Yeah, I mean, I don't know of any I don't know of any, um, uh, special hydrocolloid in horseradish that, uh, you know, may or may not be activated, although
+
+[9:39] I could be wrong. I don't know about that either, but I do know that horseradish has very active peroxidase enzyme, and that might be doing something that allows cross-linking that wouldn't otherwise take
+
+[9:52] place. About, is, is there store bought horseradish, um, pasteurized? That's the question. I bet. I mean, how else would it be shelf stable? I mean, it's horseradish. don't know. I mean, I buy... It's refrigerated, but when you buy gold, it's definitely in the refrigerated, but it may be pasteurized, and the pasteurization may, you know, stop some of whatever they are. The, the, the, from, and when it's gels, it gels. I mean, it's not, you know, it's just, it's not just like it's thicker. It, I mean, there's a, there's a chemical reaction going on here, but it, you know,
+
+[10:29] it, it's, it's, it's a solid mass. Well, tomatoes are full of peck Dan. So, uh, you know, I don't know much about horseradish. But I mean, if there is some sort of cross linking going on. I mean that's plausible, I guess. So you're saying that that's, you know, you're lucky that Harold stopped by. You know? And that's got to be something what it is. I'm going to check and see if the gold is pasteurized. And if that's it, you know, and then the other thing is, do you care? I mean, I've experimented around with just adding a little water to it the next thing and
+
+[11:02] mixing it up and it comes back and it's fine, but I was just curious, why, why that happened? you know, and it's got to be something like that, that the, it's some kind of reaction with depictant in the ketchup. Well, so yeah, so I would look, we could look into like Harold's thing. And so I guess but you do say you add a little bit of water and it comes back. Yeah, so that doesn't sound so much to me like cross-linking. Well, unless it just break, unless you just, unless adding liquid, you're literally just breaking it almost like
+
+[11:31] you would be making a fluid gel, in which case you're taking a light gel and breaking it, you know, into
+
+[11:37] a fluid gel. After you break it and it comes back, does it hold peaks better than
+
+[11:42] regular, I mean, cocktail sauce holds a peak pretty well as is because it's, you know, it takes a tropic thing. So it's... I haven't really experimented with it that much. Hmm. It's one of those things. Now it's like, you can't scratch. I gotta figure this out. Yeah, well, uh, I don't know. I mean, I'll I'll try to remember over the over the week to do some searches on horseradish and pectin and
+
+[12:07] geling, see whether I can figure anything out. You know, maybe Harold will too. I never know what you never know what's going to peak Harold's interest. This sounds very interesting. Yeah, I'll play around with it this weekend. All right, well, we'll look into it. All right, well, thanks. It's good one. All right, all right. If necessary. I could send you some samples and you can you can look at this. I could drop some off at the radio station. I go into Brooklyn about every other week and I've actually been there on Emily's show a couple
+
+[12:35] of times. I can make it a point of I can bring you. I tell you what I can do. I can bring you the ingredients, and you can put it together, and then you can, you can watch it Joe. sounds great. I'll do it. Yeah. And then you get some cocktail sauce out of the deal. Yeah, all right. which is, you know, always good. I like, especially in the summertime. I know I like some cold shrimp and cocktail sauce. You like some cold shrimp of cocktail sauce, does? It's okay. Wait, you're not a fan of, wait, is it a fan? You're not a fan of cocktail sauce? You not a fan of cold shrimp? Both. I don't choose it. I would eat it. I'll eat it All right. all right well thanks. yet another thing. Although, this is better than normal nastasia. She's like, I'll eat it. So before we get into the meat and potatoes of the show. Harold's here, so I'm sure people are going to want to call in for some Harold McGee style questions. A couple of things. Harold was here last week for Impossible Burger, Erger, Erger, Erger, right? And you're actually here again for the impossible food group, right? right. Yeah, yeah, the sweet. And I don't know if anyone's going to want to call in and ask questions about GMO,
+
+[13:30] heme protein, vegetable, coconut, you know, oil, burger Lloyds. more and more delicious. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, like it's interesting. I think it's like of the level of like, you know, a mediocre hamburger, which is saying a
+
+[13:47] lot. Yeah, going from scratch to that is impressive. And the thing is that they've got, uh, they're they're scientists. So this is, you know, stage one and they're going to move on and on and on. Sure. It's like an incredibly impressive 1st effort, I would say. That's what I would say. And the, the, the, the blood note, the, the kind of sucking on iron note. Bueno. Did you taste it that time, Nastasia? You didn't go to that event with me? Okay. So that's one. Uh, two, uh, Harold was here last week and did not get to see the
+
+[14:20] Amorphophallus, a Titanum. The giant, even Titanic, shapeless penis flower, the world's largest single inflorescence, the actual, the largest branched inflorescence
+
+[14:33] nastasia is not from in the arms. It's actually in the Acaciae, the palm family, as I was told by someone at the botanical garden, which is interesting because one, the families sound very similar.
+
+[14:45] But the orders, I guess. Anyway, but the, yeah, so I saw it. When I saw it, it was not at max, by the way, so the interesting thing from a food perspective,
+
+[14:53] the reason why you bring it up is that Amorphophallus, Titanum is or Titanum, I don't know, is like 1st cousin.
+
+[15:02] And by the way, the flower in the wild gets to be about inflorescence is not a single flower, but it gets to be about 12 feet tall in Sumatra, where it comes from. And it's pollinated by carrion flies and whatnot. And so it smells. And this one smells a lot actually, like rotting mouse is what it smells like. It smells like rotting mouse. But it's like 1st cousin, uh, if you consider genus relations cousins. It's 1st cousin to conjak, like what you make conjak out of. the food stuff, which also smells, but it's apparently a much more heady brew of
+
+[15:36] sense according to docs that you sent me, right, Harold? That's right. Yeah, I don't remember exactly what the mix is for conjac, but it's the inflorescence, right? So the root itself, does it need deodorizing before it's used? No, no, no, no, no. Literally, it doesn't smell until it opens up and it produces the stink in the inflorescence. And in fact, um, the inflorescence itself, uh, a portion of it will heat up, I guess, due to, um, you know, to metabolic activity will heat up a couple degrees above ambient to help release of the waft.
+
+[16:11] Do you think you would have wanted to see that stuff? I didn't even invite you because I figured you wouldn't that's not your jam, right? You like flowers, but not rotting flowers. When I showed up at, they opened the Botanical Garden early. I showed up at 9 AM and Dax and I went, we just walked in. And then at 10 when I left, there was like the equivalent of a 3 block
+
+[16:35] line trying to get in to see a stinky flower, just goes to show you the lengths that New Yorkers will go through to see a stinky flower. Not just New Yorkers. I mean, I was in from California. I saw that this was happening. I was watching the corpse flower cam regularly to see if it would open while I was here and was sorely disappointed. In fact, you and I were in touch. I was maybe going to delay my flight. I'm glad I didn't because it stayed closed for another couple of days. But anyway. Anyway. So, but you know, you should go check out. There's got to be someone. I think Davis has a couple. UC Davis has a couple, but I think they're held kind of privately. They don't necessarily put them on display. Yeah, and I heard that actually someone had one in Berkeley a couple of years ago. Well, maybe that's there's a yeah, there's a wiki list. Yeah. But did you, you didn't get to obviously see them. He about it after the fact. So listen, if any of you listening have in the San Francisco Bay Area or within, I don't know, probably
+
+[17:36] probably a 100 mile radius or so, and you want Harold Nagee to come smell your flour, I'm sure he will come smell your
+
+[17:42] flour, or if you're growing any form of carrying fly, or any sort of dung, dung, insect,
+
+[17:53] pollinated, arum family flour, I'm sure Harold would love to calm smell. Am I wrong? You're not wrong, no. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, conjac. Look, the amorphophallus titanium, the corpse flower, has, you know, it has the problem that it only blooms. It doesn't bloom for at least 10 years after it's, you know, started and then and then it blooms once and then it doesn't bloom again for another like 4 to seven, 8 years. And so, you know. And the bloom is like 36 hours. Yeah, 24 to 36 hours and like to make it even harder, it's it's like a very picky, you know, it really just wants to grow in Sumatra and like
+
+[18:31] nowhere else. So anywhere else you try to grow it. It's a huge kind of a, it's a cordal you. All right. So, speaking of gardening, I have some stuff. I brought Oh, do you want to do dump meals, now, or you want to do dump meals after the break? After the break. We'll do dumbness. Nastasia's sister, our dump meals correspond. By the way, Harold, a dump meal is where you just take, like, a short list of ingredients, throw them into a crock pot, walk
+
+[18:53] away, and then eat it. hence, you dump the stuff into the crock pot, and then that becomes your meal. So Nastasia's recently college graduated sister is our dump meal correspondent. And she called in and I
+
+[19:09] was, and apparently I was like horrifying to her. I was mainly horrified at the dump meal, right? fixated on her washing chicken. You don't wash chicken. anyway. USDA says wash chicken. Really? Oh, wait a minute. No, they say don't watch it. Yeah, don't watch chicken. Three, four years ago, they flipped. Yes, you know, and because it's going to spray... Spray salmonella everywhere. Spray salmonella all over the place. Uh, yeah. And my point is, is that, like, this is yet another reason why, like, most people's recommendations are garbage because people flip back and
+
+[19:50] forth. People, you ask someone a question. You ask a USDA person. Hey, should I wash chicken? And they've never run the experiment. They've never run the freaking test. They're like, yeah, you should wash chicken, right? Me, it's just, why the hell would you wash your chicken? You know what I mean? Like, like, I'm not thinking about, like, this or that, a boop of people. You gonna cook the freaking chicken. Why are you gonna wash the freaking chicken, right? Here's why I wash my freaking chicken. All right. Because often when I buy a chicken. It kind of stinks. All right, this, I'm not. saying anything against your chicken. But listen, listen, Harold. I remember this was, oh, 2 decades ago, back before Duck was fairly common, right? As a thing you could buy in a Superman. you could buy it, but you know, I mean, it wasn't something that they sold a lot of. So I bought a duck. And it was in one of those classic like poultry tubes that they put like chicken and ducks in, right? That CLN stank, and they didn't used to be modified anything. They were just tubes. And then they would presumably freeze them in the tube, ship them, thumb out, and then they'd sit, God knows how long until somebody, some
+
+[20:59] knucklehead who wanted to cook a duck, you know, because back then Americans cooking ducks, like,
+
+[21:04] what, what, are you, French? You know what I mean? So, like, I bought the duck and I opened it up and it stank. I mean, it stank. It stank. And by the way, what stank means in this case is lots of bacteria are growing on it,
+
+[21:18] right? And so like, I was like, it's still good. It's still good. I can fix it. I can fix it because it was dinner. You know what I mean? People were coming over. It was dinner. I didn't expect that all of a sudden my main protein, the centerpiece. This duck I had been thinking about was going to be garbage. So then what do I do? I attempt to wash it off to get the stink away. It still stinks a little bit. I put soap on the freaking duck to try to wash it off. And then I say to myself, oh, am I going to eat this freaking duck that stinks that's going bacterially
+
+[21:49] wrong? that is garbage, that is like just like, no, no. I'm not. And that's kind of maybe when, like, my aversion to watching poultry started. When I realized that I was using it as an excuse to try to serve my family garbage. And when I realized that I was a severe enemy of quality in that, I probably overdeveloped a reaction in the other direction. You see what I mean? That's I'm just telling you like the analysis of where I come from on this on this poultry washing situation. Now. Actually, USDA, though, like it's like, you know, so that's the problem. It's like doctors. When you ask some advice on nutrition. They just say something that sounds good. They haven't actually run the test. Really, the USDA person would say, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's bad. Who knows? I don't know. Do it if you want. You know what I mean? It's like, in the absence of data, don't make recommendations. Yeah. Unless they're just personal preference. Or say, this is what we think might happen. So we think maybe it would be better not to. So if you have a chicken that you deem has like a little bit of smell, but maybe it's
+
+[22:58] going to be okay when you want to wash it, I mean, I think that's fine. I'm fine with that. But just they, like, like, de-rigur washing your chickens when you open them. Why do it? Yeah. No, I agree. And usually when the chickens that I buy when they have a problem, it's on the inside. So I don't actually mess with the outside that much, I blot it, so it'll crisp up better, but
+
+[23:23] I, but I do rinse the inside. Right. Well, there's also like a lot, like, you know how when they do like a bad butchering and they leave a bunch of lung on the inside, I'll rinse the lung out because, you know, it's just easier, you know, not a flip
+
+[23:36] side. Some things have things that smell terrible in them or are tastings that aren't spoilage issues, and those things are rinsed constantly. Fish. Fish, you know, most of the time when you buy it a whole, they haven't cut the vessels along the spine and rinsed all that kind of blood out. I do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And stuff just happens on the surface no matter what. I mean, missing fish makes a huge difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally pro rinsing fish. You know what I'm saying? I think, but the thing is like, you're rip. But USDA would say same problem, right? Bacteria. This is why you shouldn't listen to them. You should rinse it if it makes it taste better and not rinse it if it doesn't make it taste better. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I think we're in total agreement here. But like, I was, I apparently pissed off Nastasia's sister. So now she claims... She has a meeting or possibly... So it was quite a preamble to this whole thing. Yeah, she claims that, uh, that she's not calling in because she has a meeting, but really she doesn't want to, she like, now she's filing her report, her dump meal reports with Nastasia. But what makes it difficult is it's harder easier for me to, like, you know, go after things if I know exactly if I can query like why certain decisions were made or not. You know what I mean? Oh, so I have some stuff for us to taste. First of all, I brought the latest, for those of you that, longtime listeners, you will know that, uh, Nastasia and I, I think maybe, did Peter was there, was he there that time, had some of, uh, Harold McGee's delicious, uh, walnuts, Harold's,
+
+[25:16] these nuts. But then we have a new version of McGee's nuts here that, uh, and you want to talk about
+
+[25:24] them? I brought them. So Anastasia can sample them. She hasn't had them before, so she can, uh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. So I went to Turkey a couple of years ago. And one of the things I did in Istanbul was visit a place that made baklava, and we were given little samples of the things that they were making, and I was amazed at the flavor of the pistachios, which were compared to California pistachios, tiny and dark, dark
+
+[25:51] green, and just incredibly aromatic. So I bought some and brought them back and shared them with you because I know you're a pistachio fan. And I also prevailed upon a friend who may have been on the show, Ariel Johnson. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
+
+[26:10] a couple times. Yeah. So she at the time was at UC Davis. I was in San Francisco. I told her about these amazing pistachios, she said. Why don't you bring them up to the lab over the weekend and we'll put them on a machine that's not being used and see if we can figure out why they're so different from the California.
+
+[26:26] So we did a gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, olfactometry test on these 2 batches of
+
+[26:35] pistachios, and found that basically they have identical chemical compositions. It's just that the Turkish ones had like 50 times the quantity of the volatiles that gave the aroma. And they were so fragrant that they to me, they smelled like mangoes. Right. So they were fragrant, not in the way that like Bronte pistachios are. They were fragrant in a different way. Yeah, fruity. I mean, incredibly fruity. Now, bear in mind, for those of you that don't, you know, pay attention to the botany here, they are actually related to
+
+[27:08] mangoes. I mean, distantly. They're all anacardaceae, right? Yeah. Anyway, so that was a wonderful experience. So a couple of weeks ago I was in Oxford for the Oxford Symposium on
+
+[27:22] food and cookery. And my Turkish friend, Island Tan, was
+
+[27:27] there, and we knew we were going to see each other, so she wrote me from Istanbul. This is like, you know, a week before the coup, uh, coup attempt and said, anything I can bring you. So I said pistachios and pistachios and some pistachios. So she brought me 2 different batches, which we've got here. One is the standard Turkish pistachio, which are larger. Do you like nistachios? Do you like pistachio? Do you like pistachio, nuts, nastachio? Yeah, all right, all right. So smell these. These are the standards. They smell like nuts. And then the special ones for baklava making, which apparently are not sold on in the market generally. They're sold only to manufacturers. You get the difference? Yeah, this one smells more. Taste smells more. Nastasia, the poetry of your descriptions is... Remember not to chew on the mic, people freak out. know. If they freak out. What do you think? Good. Really good. Taste, taste, taste a little mango in there. Something? I mean, they're super fruity. nuts, but they're fruity and not nutty. But they're, you know what? I think I told you, I had some black walnuts, American black walnuts that I think had gone rancid and fruity as a result of rancidity.
+
+[28:50] Like, so it's like rants and fruity notes. But these are not like that. are good fruity notes. Yeah, these are, so rancid, uh, aromas are like fatty acids and alcohols and aldehydes and things like that. These are terpenes. So they're formed by the plant early in the development of the
+
+[29:09] nut and I guess they get diluted as the nut gets bigger. I guess they're there to protect the nut, and so they're really concentrated to begin with, and then as the nut gets older, and the shell gets hard and that kind of thing. Maybe it doesn't eat as much chemical protection, so the flavor gets milder. So when you're young, you protect the nut. You got to protect your nuts when they're young. when you're old like me, you don't need them anymore. Useless. You're going with the dog. Is it a Wu-Tang B side, protect your nut? protect your nuts. Oh, it should be. It should be. Yeah, so these are now the reason they don't harvest you normally is just are more expensive. to do because you lose out on the harvest. Yeah, so they're they're apparently not for general sale. They're only sold to baklava makers. And why do the baklava people care that much about, like, the quality difference of their nuts? I guess to make a better bakala. don't know. See, but why don't they, but they must. Friends of quality. friends of quality, but they must actually believe that the other ones are better eating
+
+[30:13] nuts. Maybe because they have them both. They actually much believe that the bigger ones are better eating nuts and these are better pastry nuts. Could be, could be. Yeah. Because otherwise there'd be a market. just charge more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good question. Maybe maybe in a place that has pistachios galore, people are not willing to pay a whole lot of money for
+
+[30:35] them, just as a general eating nut. Yeah. Not eating. Oh, speaking of young seeds. nuts. Uh, so I had this uh, pumpkin. So it turns out that I have this garden patch up in Connecticut and
+
+[30:50] it's it's like cucurbit fantasy freaking land. So like cucumbers go freaking bananas. And I didn't know this because I hadn't ever planted a pumpkin before. Pumpkins go frigging nuts. And I planted like a pumpkin that's actually a Connecticut variety. I forget the name of it, but it's from Connecticut. and it's one of the ones that's designed to become giant, like a couple £100 and uh, and I was gone for a couple of weeks, I came, I came back and looked at
+
+[31:17] it, and it's like Jack and the Beanstalk, the sucker had punched through both sides of the
+
+[31:21] garden and, uh, one of the pumpkins on. I have to thin them out so that they get big, right? But one of the pumpkins that I was going to consider keeping in the span of 2 weeks, it had grown through a fence. It was the size of like a tennis ball or a racquet ball, and it had grown into £10 pumpkin over the course of like 2 weeks. And it snapped itself off because the vine could no longer hold it through the fence.
+
+[31:46] It was like through a, like a, what is that? you know, like chicken wire fence. It was through it. It snapped it off. And so I took it, right? Because I'm going to harvest them anyway. But they, like, there is almost no information on the internet about, uh, young pumpkins. Even though I'm sure everyone who tries to grow big pumpkins is thinning pumpkins out, there's
+
+[32:06] nothing, there's nothing on them. And what's interesting is the skin is very, very thin and delicate because you haven't curated at all, right? When you cut it open, the pith between the seeds hasn't
+
+[32:17] fully, it's like still kind of solid, so it's kind of hard to scoop it out. The flesh is actually really good. I made a, I made a, like a, a pumpkin parmesan with it. You know, like I cut the pumpkin, roasted it down a little bit, but was gentle with it, so it didn't get all smashed up, and then layered it
+
+[32:34] like you would for like a lasagna or something like that. But I did it Mexican. I did it with Oaxacan string cheese and cotija because that's what I have in my fridge. know what I mean? So, it's not bad. You know what I mean? Look, Parmigano's Parmigiano, Cotillo, but it's good. It's more of like, you know, like a Mexican, Italian pumpkin casserole. You know what I mean? Anyway, yeah. And then, uh, pumpkins, pumpkins, New World anyway, right? Yeah, and then, and then later, I took the rest of it because, again, it's 10 pounds. I'm not going to eat it in one day. I actually did hack it up with a pasta and rehydrated
+
+[33:07] Shiitakis and more of an Italian style with a, you know, with Fusili and, you know, actual Parmigiano. It's delicious, but delicious. But, so, and you can actually eat them raw. And they have the texture of a melon, but they don't have melon taste, and they don't even have that much pumpkin taste. They very light. They're like the watermelon of pumpkins when they're like that. So there's a there're a lot. They're more refreshing, even raw. They have a lot of latexy stuff. So you know how when you cut pumpkins, your fingers get that like 2nd skin on them, that gross 2nd skin when you're cutting pumpkins? It skins the hell out of your hands. But, you know, I just peeled it with a veg, uh, veg peeler, uh, chopped it
+
+[33:48] up and it's, it's nice. It refreshing. It good. Yeah, I mean, so it's a lot less pumpkiny even than like a
+
+[33:55] Calabaza melon, which is like pretty mellow in flavor.
+
+[33:59] You know what I mean? And when it cooks up, it holds its flavor and doesn't hold its shape and doesn't mush out. So it stays well, it's soft as hell, but it stays intact. It doesn't instantly pulp out. But the most interesting thing, which I brought for you guys to taste, is the seeds. The seeds are almost the size of full grown pumpkin seeds, but I salted these a little bit, but they're soft, and you can eat them like cucumber seeds. These are totally uncooked, but they're almost full size, like pumpkin seeds. I just put add a little salt, but they're otherwise uncooked unseasoned, just rinsed out of the pumpkin. That's good. They're great, right? Yeah, yeah. A little crunchy. Very refreshing. They're chilled, which helps. Yeah, but like I would mix these into a salad any day. You know what I mean? I also roasted some and they were good, but they lost some of that snap and texture. What do you think, Nastasia hater of things? Yeah, they're good, right? So people out there who are growing pumpkins. I looked on the, like I say, on the Internet, I couldn't find any good information. Someone was like, throw them away. They're useless. Put them in compost. feed them to, you know, feed them to rabbits, feed them to pigs. The fact of the matter is, is there's a lot of delicious stuff to do with these young pumpkins, and it's not insubstantial. I fed my family for 2 days, including when guests came over on this one freaking pumpkin that would have been called
+
+[35:17] to toss it to a ditch by most people. Yeah. Young pumpkin. Chat room is suggesting a pumpkin dump meal. Pumpkin dump meal, pump dump, pump and dump. You know who Mark Ladner, Mark Ladner, that's his favorite cooking term? He's, like, when you, when he's doing an event? Like, hey, Mark, what'd you bring to the event? No, no. Pump and dump. Pump and dump. It's like, right? It means like, it means something that's easy to do at events. You know, you pump out of like whatever, bottles and dump. Obviously, he's doing it at a very high level. All right, I brought some more crap to taste. Do you want to taste the poisonous stuff 1st or last? Last. Last? Uh, you you stage it how you like. All right, well, just in case we die, let's start with the non-poisonous stuff first. Can we take a call then after the tasting? I'll take a call. Well, I'm saying, let me say what it is. And then while I'm pouring it, we'll take the collar, all right? So I have, uh, uh, I'm testing centrifuges out,
+
+[36:17] and uh, I don't think we're going to talk more about the centrifuges today, but I'm testing centrifuges out. And what that means is I have a whole boatload of clarified orange
+
+[36:26] juice, like around my house, right? Because I can just go buy it, right? And it clarifies rough in a roughly similar fashion to other citruses and things, which is a big thing that we're clarifying,
+
+[36:37] a centrifuge. So I have like gallons of clarified OJ in my house. And so I was like, hey, I start fermenting it. So I've been fermenting it. This is my 1st fermented batch. Now, I actually, interestingly, like, um, I think it tasted better when I 1st made it. I think this is like a month old now. So I think it tasted a little better when I 1st made it. Uh, but and this one was, I have a batch that I just made, but it hasn't bottle carved up yet, but
+
+[37:05] uh, this batch was made with uh, orange juice, which is about 11 bricks uh, taken up to about 15. And it got shaken up on the ride over, taken up to about 15 with white sugar. But I have one with honey as well. But this is just pouring all over the ground is what it's doing. I was like... Don't worry, it's sticky. No I'm kidding. It's very dry. It's like super dry. And what's interesting is, is that even though I don't really like clarified orange juice because the bitterness of the orange pulp is gone, right? Uh, when you're when you're using it, I actually quite like this because the bitterness, uh, after all the sugar is fermented out uh, comes back. All right. So while I'm waiting for this thing to stop, let me put it this way. The bottle was a little, shall we say, excited? Uh, why don't we take a caller? Well, I'm pointing, can I have a glass and style? You're just sitting there looking at me like it's like some sort of like, All right, call her, you're on the air. Hey guys, this is Tyler from EC Davis. Hey. How's it going? Yeah, go impossible foods. Oh, possible foods, yeah. Hi, Tyler. Nice to hear your voice. I was wondering if there's a scientific reason for scalding milk or cream in
+
+[38:16] the pastry recipe, since usually they're pasteurized. Huh? Ah,
+
+[38:25] scalding milk or cream. Um, well, even when they're pasteurized, they're they've still got stuff in them. And, um, you know, back in the old days, um, it may not have been pasteurized. They may not have been pasteurized. At this point, you may not know how old it is. So I guess it might just be a way of sort of standardizing the microbiological quality.
+
+[38:52] Wait, scalding? I always, I was tuning out for 12nd because I had this, I had that was pouring stuff and getting stuff dripped all over me, but anytime I see
+
+[39:02] scalded milk in a recipe, I think it's a throwback recipe, right?
+
+[39:08] Which recipe are we talking about here? Pastry cream and things like that. Any kind of... I mean, I think
+
+[39:17] this, I think it's like a throwback, right? Could be. I mean, has anyone done a side by? I always follow recipes just because it's easier to follow a recipe than it is to have a failed recipe
+
+[39:29] afterwards unless you're specifically testing out a theory. Yeah, yeah. I mean, something else that it's going to do is change the flavor. Uh, for sure. The question is whether at the end of the process of making whatever you're making, you're going to notice that flavor difference or not, but scalded milk,
+
+[39:51] scalded cream tastes very different than plain pasteurized either one. What about UHT pasteurized? Um, yeah, I think if you scald that, it's going to taste different too. I mean, the amount of time and the temperature that any milk product reaches, the longer it stays at that elevated temperature, the more the flavor changes. And the more the proteins are messed with and the more X, Y, and Z. So in general, when you're selling something in a store, you mess with it the least amount that you can. Uh, you know, in, you know, to have it sell before it spoils. What about Parmala? You think Scalding Parmlot's gonna do anything? Hmm, Parmalot. Yeah, that tastes pretty cooked to begin with, doesn't it?
+
+[40:41] Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, as with all questions like this question, what I would do is
+
+[40:51] a side by side, right? Just make the same recipe with and without scalding and see whether anybody notices any difference, whether you notice any difference during the process of the making, you know, whether it makes a difference to the
+
+[41:05] process. My guess is that there are small differences, but they're not going to be that significant. Right. And especially for things like that, that you're not really relying on the chemistry of the milk. So I think like small amounts of heat difference and small amounts of changing the conformation of the ingredients in milk can make a huge difference in things like
+
+[41:29] cheesemaking. You know what I mean? Even yogurt making. I mean, you get a much thicker set if you scald the milk first. Right. But here you're, but there you're relying on the chemistry of the caseine, and, you know, and the myself to
+
+[41:51] to what you're working on. In like a pastry cream, you're not. You know what I mean? I mean, I wouldn't guess. I don't know. It's my theory. Sticking to it. Cool. Thanks so much. All right, thank you. All right, to taste us, what do you think, guys? It's just orange juice. Yeah, it's kind of weird. You have a weird... orange juice. I'm washing, that noises me washing the, uh, the, the orange juice of my, But is it drier than you thought? Yeah. It's really dry. That bitterness at the end is from the orange juice. That grapefruit bitterness at the end of it is present in the OJ completely masked by the sugar. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I like it. The bitterness to me is refreshing, like beer bitterness. It's almost like it's got, like, a bitter in it. Yeah, and the and the fruitiness is toned down. I think because there is so little or no sugar. So there's just not that kind of reinforcement from the taste. Yeah. Interesting stuff. I like it. I'm pro. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Sunday morning brunch. Yeah, yeah. This thing's right now clocking in, probably somewhere between 8 and 10%. Alcohol. So, higher than beer, but lower than almost anything else, like lower than, you know, any normal wine or anything like
+
+[43:25] that. All right, so what? Should we, oh, should we, should we take our quick break and then come back? No, I would just go through. You gotta get to that guy's question. All right. So, uh, may I answer the question before we eat the poison or have you guys distribute the poison? So I brought some poisonous stuff. So the pot of, what's it called? Potophylum, the American mandrake, the May
+
+[43:51] apple, is an awesome looking leaf. You ever seen that leaf? It looks crazy. The leaf looks awesome, Nastasi. It's like super green, big leaf. They're really low, and each plant only has like a couple of leaves, like 2 leaves, and
+
+[44:04] they, they, they, um, they grow by underground runners, so they kind of self-propagate themselves, and they produce, the entire plant is poisonous. And so, it was, it's been used uh, as poison, uh, by Native Americans. It used as a medicine as a huge cathartic and small amounts. Uh, the resin, which is obtained from the uh, rhizome. I think it's a rhizmatic thing, uh, is used as a topical wort remover, but uh, there's been uh, people who've over-applied it and uh, they, and they die. So this is my lead up to having you eat it. But the fruit of the May apple. is incredibly delicious once it's ripe. Once it's ripe. It's incredibly delicious. The problem is, very hard to get them, because as soon as they ripen, they, uh, they're eaten by all the animals. So, uh, last week, I harvested them all when they were still a little green and then I wrapped them in plastic in case they self-produce ethylene so that they would, uh, you know, increase their ethylene production. And the question is, is the May apple a climacteric fruit? Will itself ripen after it's been removed? Answer, yes, it will soften and it will yellow. And so, uh, my theory is, is that if it smells tropical and is soft, then it will not be poisonous. Now, you don't want to eat the seeds because the seeds are also poisonous. Well, it's thought that the seeds are poisonous. So if you guys want to inspect these, uh, I brought 2 of them with me. If you guys want to inspect these while I get to the questions that we have. All right. All right. Rich McDonough wrote in. Um, by the way, we had a, we have a question in about uh, cocktails for Burning Man, but we're saving that for next week when Jordana Rothman, who has made cocktails at Burning Man, is going to be on the show to discuss it because we figured it's better to just have someone on the show who's actually done it so that,
+
+[46:01] and, and uh, I'm the only person apparently who gets sassy with Jordana. Yeah, right. Yeah. True. Yeah, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, okay. Thanks for doing the show. And by the way, he calls out Nastasia, Peter, who's not here,
+
+[46:18] but you know, you can stand in for Peter Harrell, so you're a new engineer, that's David, and the ghost of Jackie Molecules. So nice. It goes to Jackie Molecules. I have enjoyed doing pressure infusion in the EC or ISI depending on what era you're talking about. So this is a, we're talking about nitrous infusion where you use nitrous oxide to inject liquid into an item under high pressure and then you boil it back out and you do fast infusions.
+
+[46:41] I've just got a hold of a large tank of medical grade nitrous oxide. Now, listen, listen. And 2.5 and 5 gallon corny kegs, which will take up to 130
+
+[46:49] PSI plus a high-pressure regulator, which will manage around 120 PSI before the safety valve kicks in. You've mentioned pressure infusion in a keg was possible in liquid intelligence, but didn't go into details, as this is still much lower pressure than an ISI. assume I need to address recipes and let it sit for longer, but how much longer should I go without risking bitterness
+
+[47:07] for materials such as cacao nibs? Any other tips and tricks you can share would be great. Cheers, rich. Okay, okay, so listen, it's actually not that much. It's not that different. So if you go on Amazon, look inside, Nastasi, can you get Amazon? Do you have that on your phone? don't have the app. Uh, if anyone. Actually, hey, David, can you do liquid intelligence, look inside, and then look up pressure chart, and see whether it's there. I thought I had it on my phone, but I don't. But in Liquid Intelligence, my book, which you can buy on Amazon. Uh, the, um, there's a chart of the uh, pressures inside of an ISI bottle uh, and it literally lists directly what your particular recipe will produce inside of the bottle for a given fill
+
+[47:51] amount uh, at a given ethanol concentration with a given number of chargers. Now, there are 2 numbers there. I think I gave both numbers. If not, I'll have to go and find it. I'll try to post a picture of it The number is the initial pressure, which is important, but not the most
+
+[48:05] important, and 2nd is the final pressure, which is what you're not going to be able to achieve the initial
+
+[48:10] pressure, but you probably will be able to achieve the final pressure. So the issue is, is that if you have a 5 gallons quite a bit. I would do it in the 2.5s because it's not, like unless you are a gorilla, it is not easy to vigorously shake a 5 gallon container under pressure.
+
+[48:29] It's just not. You know what I mean? Oh, oh, another thing. I forgot to mention, oh, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. listen. The difference between an ISI. And a keg is that when you're doing a ISI, all of the gas is delivered at once at a high
+
+[48:44] pressure, and then that pressure drops as you shake it. In a corny keg, you are delivering the pressure at the pressure, and you must shake it until you get to an equilibrium pressure inside.
+
+[48:54] So you have to keep the valve hooked onto the keg as you're shaking, which adds to the difficulty of
+
+[49:01] doing it. So you have to keep the thing on as you're shaking. You have to shake vigorously. Do not turn it upside down or stuff will leak back into because those things, like I say, don't have check valves in them. So you have to hold it and shake the ever-loving hell out of it, up and down, up and down, up and down until you stop hearing gas come out of the tank. Then you know you've reached equilibrium, relatively close to equilibrium. And then you let it sit for your predetermined amount of time, and then you vent it. Now, if you can't get pressures close to the ones that you get in the eyes eye. But my feeling is you can. I don't know if David has found the relevant document or not. I have, but where am I looking? Let's just prefer for craps. Like, look at the final pressure on, uh, I think I gave 40% ethanol in a half liter whipper with 2 chargers. Is that on that chart? Where is the chart exactly? Oh, you have to just ask for a pressure chart and it should find it somewhere. Okay, one sec. Yeah. Uh, so anyway, uh, you should be able to get to it. So as long as you, with that caveat that you shake it until you stop hearing a lot of gas go in, which means you've reached
+
+[49:57] equilibrium, everything else should be the same. The venting, everything else should be the same. One more note of caution. Do not, do not, do not. I don't care if you do whip it balloons with it or whatever. The way people die with nitrous oxide once they have the tanks, is they put a mask on their face, then they pass out, and there's not oxygen supply. They won't kill you. If you had actual, if you had a proper oxygen mix going in with the nitrous while you were breathing it, you would pass out and you wouldn't die. And if you remove the mask, you revive very quickly. The real danger is people asphyxiate themselves with the mask and it happens more often than you'd think. So, do not, under any circumstances, ever put a mask over, like, attach a mask to this and, like,
+
+[50:42] go and do mask shots of nitrous with your
+
+[50:47] bodies. Just don't, just don't do it. All right. So, uh, we'll see if David can come up with this stuff. And meanwhile, you want it, Harold, are you down for tasting or not? Does this smell tropical? have a question. Yes. Have you tasted one? Last year. Let me tell me see this one. This... I tasted last years. Last year's, but fully ripe. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So this really is, we really are guinea pigs here. Oh, yes, that right? Oh, it smells very tropical. I see here. Oh yeah, smell that. Even if you don't taste it, smell that. I'm gonna taste a little bit because, come on.
+
+[51:31] Yeah, describe, describe the flavors. The aromas, rather. Uh, actually, to me, it smelled a little like cherries, like benzaldehyde, kind of...
+
+[51:42] plus passiflora. It's got passionfruit note, too. Okay, so a little sulfur action. It's good. It's really good. It might it's one of my favorite fruits. And this tastes like what you tasted last year? Yep. It's one of my favorite fruits. It's got tropical, it's got banana notes. Don't eat the seeds. Spit them out if you get any. It's got like banana notes. It's got like passionfruit notes. It's got like, That is good. Yeah. That is freaking delicious, right? Stas, you up for it or no? Oh thank you. No thanks. All right, so listen. These seeds, everyone should do these. Everyone should do the seats. Okay, we got one minute. All right, we got one minute. give us a dump meal report. Oh, she made, she made root beer pulled pork, pork butt, root beer, soy sauce,
+
+[52:28] salt, and pepper. I said all together, she said, yes, how else? I said, what was the, what was the, uh, said, I didn't like it. Why? She said, tasted like ass. It just tastes like root beer, but the pulled pork really pulled easily. I said, but it tasted bad. She said, wasn't great. That's it. Tasted like ass, huh? That's a technical description because it was pork butt? Or because she was an aficionado of ass tastings. Yeah. Anyway, hard to know. So listen, I had a question I didn't get to. Uh, I was going to talk more about uh, our 23-year-old friend's espresso machine problems, but I guess we'll get to that next week when Jordana is on. And she'll, I'll be rate her for her
+
+[53:09] cocktails and she'll be rape me for my espresso machine uh, advice. Um, anything anything you want to add, Harold, to this tropical fruit, uh, temperate, temperately grown tropical fruit taste? We need to grow more may apples. Yeah, may apples is freaking delicious, right? It's freaking delicious. cooking issues.
+
+[53:36] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Kane Vineyard and Winery, a Napa Valley winery committed to respecting the
+
+[0:06] soil, and dedicated to the creation of 3 Cabernet blends. For more information, visit Kane 5.com. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:30] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking. It is coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 1245, and Roberta's
+
+[0:43] Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Special special show for you today. We have, as usual, in the studio. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? We got David in the booth, Dave, how you doing? doing great. Nice. But today, today is the special rock star wine tasting, right? We got a bunch of rock star wines, some owned by rock star, some not. And to share this with you. We have a bunch of special guests. We have returning to the program, Jordana Rothman. Hi guys. Whoa, you got a, you got a burn. You got an air horn. Nice, nice. And, you know, maybe if we have time, we'll talk smack about Burning Man and cocktails and giving each other crap and whatnot. We have also the, what's your, Daniel? What's your title there at the Sirius Heats now? I always forget. Culinary director. Culinary director Daniel Gritzer. What up, what up? welcome back to the show. By the way, if any of you want to call in your. By the way, get ready now if you want to call in questions. 2718-4972128. Thats 718-497-2128. But try to keep your questions relatively either rock star related, or line related, because we got a lot to get through today. We'll deal with all of your non-rockstar and non-wine questions later. Now, to round out our actual, like, information because, you know, we're not bad people, right? We're not bad people. Right? Okay. But we're not like, we're not, we're not, none of us are professionally kind of rock star folk or wine folk.
+
+[2:04] Actually, I have a, I have a career as a rock star on the side. Well, at least so sweet. Is that actually true? It is. He's actually written. He's actually written a song with Nastasia the Hammer and I. Yeah, I had my rap date. called slap your balls. Well, I wish you had told my 2 dogs that last week when they had balls before I had them
+
+[2:22] snipped off at the vets. Uh, but uh, more about that. Now you have like different ball songs coming through my head, because it's not appropriate. All right. So let's start with, let's start with our rock and roll cred. We have Anthony Boza, who is welcome to the show. Very glad to be here Yeah, I ate multi, multi. New York Times best-selling author has worked with the likes of slash. We'll get into it later if we have time, but like, how is that? Was that okay? was amazing. Yeah? Yeah, it was great. Did you seen him without the hat and glasses? I used to go to his house. because he liked to get interviewed from like midnight till 4 in the morning and he usually would open the door in a robe with a turban. That is sick. So kind of a had a guest still, but... Was he doing like a hair mask? He had just showered and he had a white robe on that said slash. Yeah. It's like that That is, you know what? Pretty rock. That's the life. That's just at home. Yeah, who else? Who else? Who else have you like in that in that Tommy Lee? How was that? In the Pamela days or not in the Pamela days? Nope, it was in the days when he wasn't in Motley Crue, and I lived with him. I ended up living with him. This 1st time I did a co-write didn't know what it was going to be like, ended up living in his house for 9 months. That's gotta be... Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Did you act? I did be on penicillin a couple times. Did you ask him about and or write about their, like, bet to see who could, like, go out and not shower the longest and
+
+[3:45] still, like, get it on with the ladies on a constant basis? Is that is that apocryphal or is that true story? That's pretty true. does not like to shower that much. Wow. Yeah, he calls it the rain closet, though. That's his little pet word for a shower. He's like, I'm hoping the rain closet, dude. Be right back. Now, this is a family show. saying that right now. But for any of you that go out and for any of you, go out and watch the famous online, like, explicit video of Tommy Lee and Pamela when they were together,
+
+[4:15] right? I want you to reimagine that without any showering for a long period of time. a good thing they were on a boat. Yeah, yeah. Airing everything out with the sea breezes. Yeah. What was the other one you said after Tommy Lee? By the way, why do they pronounce it Motley Crue with all the Omla? Should it be Mert Lloyd Crewa? Did you ask him that? We didn't get to that one, but you know. Next time. All right. And last, but certainly not least. We brought our wine cred with Clifton Hyde, who is Assam. Where are you song, Clifton? I work with the Royal Wine Group doing mostly high-end stuff for lots of rich people around. Oh, hi, and me, me, me, me. But also a member of the freaking blue man group. What? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you get tired of eating marshmallows. You have to wash it down with some wine so it works out well. This is strong business. People, people, this is some strong business. And we have a lot of wines to get through. And once we get Clifton liquored up. He might do some tricks with like ping pong balls and catching all sorts of crazy stuff with various things and whatnot.
+
+[5:20] He's not dressed in blue. I hear the tryouts for the blue man group are just freaking bananas. Yeah, it's pretty nice. But it's like almost like a hazing, right? Yeah, well, 1st of all, just the initial audition, you're going to room with 100 people and they give you, they play a song for you and you're expected to memorize it and play it back on one
+
+[5:37] listen and they change it for each person. With those weird organs? All the, yeah, it's instruments you've never played before. So it's crazy stuff. And so then that wheedles it down to a lot. Then after that, it's just a couple of months of just craziness and craziness, and then they keep putting me in front of people the whole time to see if you break under pressure and stuff.
+
+[5:53] It's fun. I have 2 questions. How long does it take to get the makeup off? I got to, well, I gotten most of it off within like 10 minutes. Wow. Whoa. You get pretty good at it. Like, you're, like, date ready in 10 minutes or you still, like, uh, well, for visual picture, he's got a beard and a mustache. mustache. mustache. So I'm trying to imagine like the blue. Yeah, it just cakes in there. I used to say fuck it. And you know, if anyone asks you, just something, that's not a roll. All right, okay. And the 2nd thing is, is, uh, I imagine, like, gratifying and fun, but also
+
+[6:26] soul crushing? continues to be fun. Well, I haven't done it since 12, which is funny, actually. I did do some percussion work with them on Sunday night. But no, it's one of the few things that's actually pretty... it's always fun because the crowd's there and it's very improvisational with the crowd and you get to mess with them. So, I ran screaming from Blue Man Group, the only time I ever went, too much touching. What? For you, you thought there was too much touching. This is Jordana Rockman talking. If Jordana Rothman says there's too much touching. It's a Caligula movie. Let's put it down. That was probably Clifton. Yeah, yeah. I think it was like around the after Charles right before you got banished.
+
+[7:07] Yeah, the banishment was going to do. Did the guy have a beard? Yeah. Yeah. All right, all right. Well, actually, like, we got to make a we got to make a bottle orchestra when this is done. Oh, totally. And do a little routine, right? Yeah, it's great. All right, so let's get to it. So we have a bunch of different wines. What are we going to go through first? go through GLM? Yeah, we're gonna do DLM first. Okay. So the premise behind this show is an excuse actually for Nastasia to get some friends on the show and have a good time, which is what we're
+
+[7:35] doing. But in actuality, it's tasting and judging, not just celebrity wines, with which there are many, but rock star wines. that are associated. Now, DLM Della Montagna winery. Dennis is the guy that Nastasia has been in touch with over there. He is a winemaker and has been a winemaker, but really is a huge rock star fan. So he has a lot of collaborations with rock stars and people in the music business, but the wines themselves aren't owned by the rock
+
+[8:05] stars in his case. So which one are we going to go through first? Let's start with the finale, Shan Cone, Pinot Noir, from Sonoma Coast 2013, one of 50 cases produced. So this is 160th of the entire production. Nice, all right. Well, the last, which one is that? that's the grand finale? Just the finale. Okay, the finale. All right, we have later to taste at the end, the grand finale, which is their, like, their, their most kind of, what's their most, uh, it's their most of what's it called? limited. It the most limited, his favorite bottle that they that they make in this series. Now, the finale, the finale wines, is a collaboration who I actually think he does go to the winery and do the actual collaboration with Jonathan Kane.
+
+[8:46] Jonathan Kane is like a musician, uh, slash like
+
+[8:49] a, like a piana player who like, he, he, I looked on the Wikipedia and he has gone to like every journey concert for the last umpteen 1000000 years, played the piano solo, which he wrote in Don't Stop Believing, and then like been like, peace, I'm
+
+[9:03] out, and then like leave. So hopefully for him, they play it near the beginning of the set. Guessing no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just sitting around. Kid's like, come on, guys. He has to make it through separate ways. Yeah, yeah. Free Bird last. You know what? I actually really like separate. song that you hate? That one. separate ways? No, no, no. How do you hate, you hate, don't stop believing, because here's why Nastasia hates, don't stop believing, because she's like,
+
+[9:28] uh, a bunch of people who don't know their butt from a hot rock, just go around singing it and they have no idea. It's the one journey song they know, so I hate it. Nastasia loves old man music actually. No, Dave does. I like I like old man music. I like young man music. I like old woman music. I like young woman music. I like all kind of music. I have, what's her name? What's her name? Carlson or whatever. What's her name? She was on one of the idol things. No, no. Kelly Clarkson? Can I have her on my iPod? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's rocking, dude. Yeah, Sacio likes like listening to Billy Joel. I have a party in the USA on my phone. I could play that for you right now. That I don't have. I have limits. Got to draw the line. I'll just check testing you and just seeing the boundaries there. Here, I'll just say this about my rock, my rock thinking. My rock thinking is this. Like, there's a lot of stuff I hated like growing up that I'm old enough to realize is good now. Like Steve Winwood. Steely Dan. Yeah, Steve Winwood. when he just played recently. Well, back in the day, I had to hate it because of the people that listen to it. Right. In high school. You know what I mean? Or like Chicago? Maybe? Oh, my 1st tape, Chicago 17. Peter Satera's finest effort. Oh, please, the love thing from Karate Kid 2 swords. Oh, man. Does Peter Satera make a wind? That would be amazing. It would have to be white. I don't know. All right. All right, so let's taste this. Oh, no slurping, no slurping in the mic. Our listeners get our listeners get like super pretzel. Now, uh, let me let me give the uh, let me, let me uh, talk about the uh, the finale wines. So, um, the finale is, uh, where is it? Well, why don't you talk about it? Why don't you talk about it, Clifton? I'll find the, I'll find the, Just a small town boy. Just a small town boy. Yeah. South Detroit. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Well, basically, you know, just looking at it, it's definitely unfiltered. Man, yeah, Pinot Noir. By the way, this was shit. This was shipped by UPS. It got bounced. It was in a 100 degree warehouse in UPS this morning.
+
+[11:42] I was like, ah! And so like, I like, just shoveled it back here as fast as possible, like threw it in ice and been spinning it to get it
+
+[11:52] down. I think I got it to the right temperature. I think we're getting the temperature. I also like the idea that it's kind of been footballed a bit before we got here because then it's really much more rock and roll that way. Just like, you know, shake it up, pour, and let's see what happens. See if it holds up. See if it holds up. All right, Clifton, give us a give us a notes. No slurping. And the microphone. The listeners get pretzled. All right, sorry. I do that with water. It's so bad. All right, yeah, so this has definitely seen some heat. High alcohol. A little bit of cherry, a little bit of like a strawberry thing on it. This is sonoma, right? Yes, sir. Yeah, Sonoma. So hot climate is 13. 14, 13. 13. Yeah, so hot hot ear, a lot of big fruit, alcohol's really hot on the back. acidity's there on the side. Get a little mouthwater pucker. Not bad. Very, very classic Sonoma coast. Pinot Noir. Yeah, from a hot year. Let me ask you this. There's a little bit oak in there, too. Not much. Are you feeling that the piano solo from Don't Stop Believing. Does a movie never end? Does it go on and on and on and on? And on? I feel like the most fun thing ever is for people to listen to wine notes. It must be so much fun Well, no, but that's why we have a legit Psalm slash blue men on to, by the way, do they allow women in the blue
+
+[13:24] man group? Yeah, they do, but the tits always hurt. Whoa, whoa, family show. Wait, what? They chase their nipples. You have to tape down your necks? Yeah, so they Spanish them all the way and so there's just not a... Wait, because are they like they have to be topless? No, they have to look like men. They have to look as androgynous as possible. Some fucking bullshit. It's not called the blue person group. It's the blue man group. It should just be the blue girl. I don't know. Family freaking show. I'm with Blue. You're my boyfriend. Did you give blues clues cease and desist when they started coming out or no? No, no, but I actually, I'm friends with Steve Vern since, like, we've made many a joke about such a thing. Nice. All right, Trump. All right, so now that it opens up in the glass a little bit, any... I think this is fine. This is nice drinking wine. It's not so much a don't stop believing wine to me. This is more of a lady in red, like, uh, merge style? Oh, God, I love that song. You mean, like, lady in red, like, lady in red? The very one. Or is it a simply red? Well, he actually... Well, I don't get the freeze. Is that the, is that the guy with the, like, the half? Yeah. You know, I never listen to that stuff. Lucky. I'm just kidding. All right, all right, all right. So what are we moving what are we moving to next? Is everyone cool with the? does everyone else think? I taste it and I get Cherry Rain coming down. I taste it in my mind and I spread it all around. I've had a few, but not that many. But this is the one that gives me good and plenty. Wow. Wow, that didn't work. It's a freestyle. No, that's a quote. That's a quote. And I'm gonna give, I'm gonna, I'll give up some sort of prize that doesn't exist to whoever can name the source.
+
+[15:13] got me. Is it a musician? Yeah. Is it a journey song? I mean, you can stay on subject, bro. Because you said cherry rain, purple rain. No, but you also, no, Cherry Moon. Under the cherry moon. Under the cherry moon. The Cherry Moon. You're getting your food. This was juicy fruit by Mtume. Yeah, okay. I see how we're rolling with you. By the way, speaking of rolling. I know it's not his song, but Little John makes a wine. Maybe for the next time. Oh my god, I'm kind of do that. Little John makes a wine. Apparently ACDC makes a wine. Oh, they said they couldn't get it to us fast enough. Yeah, they do make a wine. Is it made in Australia? How could ACDC not get it to as fast enough? Australia. First of all, I'm just going to say this about winemakers, right? So ACDC, when you go to see ACDC in concert,
+
+[16:01] doesn't matter how old they are, doesn't matter, like, whether they, you know, whatever's happening to them. They play the songs just like the album. The solos are exactly like the freaking album. Every time they come out with an album. It sounds roughly the same, and Angus was once quoted. Yeah, he's like, well, if it sounds different, wouldn't be ACDC, would it? And then like, and so like, yeah, or he had an interviewer once say, well, what do you think about the fact that you've made 12 albums that sound exactly the
+
+[16:26] same? And he's like, it's not true. We've made 13 albums. Best retort ever. But anyway, my point being is that a band that can do that for that many years and kick so much behind at it.
+
+[16:37] Awesome line making potential there, right? Because they're, like, they're, like, Right. Because they're good at that golf game. They can keep going. Same. Do it, do it, do it, do it. do it. They're not like all over the map. You know what I mean? They're not trying to do a country record this time. Right. Imagine. That would be cool. I'm like, that actually sounds good. I could listen to a country thunderstruck. The gourd should start doing ACDC and not just do, uh, you know. There's some bluegrass band that does ACDC covers. awesome. And it's not the gourds. Is someone else? I don't know. They also do the fighting ones? They also do Maiden too. Maybe your guys, maybe that's the one. I like that you choose late. 80s ACDC as your go-to to turn into a bluegrass thing. You don't choose like, you know, you don't choose back in black. you don't do bon Scott. You like, go straight for like 1988, 89 Thunder. Razor's
+
+[17:27] Edge Tour. Yeah, the guitar thing. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. I'm feeling it Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. It's really wow, wow.
+
+[17:40] Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. We'll get their wine on eventually. All right, so what are we tasting now? All right, number two. We got the, this is the, once again, DOM finale. Oh, access. Oh, all access. gets you into the winery. So this one is about like, I think it's supposed to be more accessible, more kind of friendly, more available, all access pass, drinking it in
+
+[18:08] the back of stage with your buddies, brings people together. That's what the Spiel says on the website. Because I read that. Oh, I
+
+[18:14] suppose I'm like strong. I appreciate the theoretical camaraderie. I have with the musicians. Do you think these guys are really drinking wine backstage? I don't know. You tell me. Some of them, yeah, totally. I mean, they might not be drinking their own, but they should if they have it. But yeah, no, I would say it's more of an age thing, you know? Younger guys. Like when you age out of whiskey, you start making wine. Never age out of whiskey. When you're trying to, you know, watch your waistline, you don't want to drink like 32 bud tall boys every day. You know what? You should you should tell Dave Arnold about water shots. You should tell Dave Arnold about water shots. Oh yeah. How to, yeah, water shots? Water shots. Yeah, a couple of Coachellas ago, I went to Coachella with Tommy Lee. Did you see did you see holographic Tupac? I did I wasn't that one, but this wasn't the one. Yeah. He wants to be on the show. He's already cut 5 songs about it. Um, and anyway, uh, so his fiance charged me with making sure he doesn't, you know, doesn't get
+
+[19:15] dehydrated or doesn't get too, and, you know, out of... What are you talking about? Rock stars and do drugs. So I invent, he like doesn't, when Tommy is drinking. He doesn't like to drink water because he's like, that's for... Um, so anyway, I invented a way to make him drink water and that was to do it like a shot, like go and get a, you know, a little solo, you know,
+
+[19:37] pull and spring and be like, all at once and we would chug it and slam it and he'd be like, yeah, water shots. And then he realized this actually made him feel good. This is the desert. So that's kind of how we did it. So we would do that every time we saw a water station. You'd be like, yeah, everybody, come on, shots. and like get people and chug it and throw them down. This can be a thing. can start this. It's fun, actually. We do it all the time. Yeah, we do it. Jordan and I do it. It's Jordan professionally. Oh, sorry. Registered trademark. What do you what do you go by when you're not being professional? Jordana. Dave Arnold. Dave Arnold. Nobody wants nobody wants that. You can go with Dave Arnold all day. It's like, you know, steal my identity, please. Is this the same guy? We're staying with the same winery for now. We're going to taste his white at the end. All right, yeah, so this guy is a big boy. It's like 15% alcohol in this guy and definitely a lot of Zen cabin there. It's got a little funk on it, little British action needs to blow off a bit. Yeah, they already like, I swirled it and it's already gone. Like it had something at the beginning and now it's, yeah. Yeah, just needed to blow off a bit. But this is this is easy drinking. Is this a backstage wine? This is, to me, this is totally like a backyard barbecue, any sort of like, you can just, you can, you can just knock this back and get hammered. Is it high alcohol? Because, like, all access pass, you know, bring in girls. Yeah, exactly. Groupies. Not a groupie one. It's a fun fact for people about Nastasio and Hammer Lopez, because Nastasio was, apparently, the queen of going backstage without performing any sort of actions. That's what she said.
+
+[21:15] But corn disagrees.
+
+[21:22] But if you're going to choose one group to break that rule on, corn? She's down with the new metal. I think this is like, no, it was boy vod, actually. This is the wine. This is the wine that makes the blue man women's ace bandages come right off. You know what I mean? pop, pop the little metal. Yeah. I think this is just a easy, fun wine, not much to it, no aftertaste, really. after taste. That's a that's a 1st for a song ever. No after taste. Damn, there's no real after taste. It just kind of... It's for quaffing. You just sit and just throw this back. Getting after notes of nothing. Just fades into a water shot. Nothing is nothing to this. You get album name. All right, so wait, now we're moving on to the pinup is one of the ones that's done with David Coverdale. Yes. So this is David Coverdale. Now, the other thing I want to say about these guys about DLM, and their website is DLM wines, right? dot com? I think so. And what's interesting is, is they, a lot of their rock star things, they do for charity. So they'll they'll get like all of Journey or David Coverdale to sign a bottle and
+
+[22:33] bottles and then they'll do a charity. So I know that one of the things they did with Journey made a lot of money for the Make a Wish Foundation. So it's kind of an interesting, an interesting model. I just don't stop believing. Did you guys ever watch First Sweet Feast? did a did a series of like tasting, um, tasting
+
+[22:52] celebrities spirit brands with Jim Meehan and um, Danny Brown? Wow. And his tasting note for all of them was taste like pussy. Hey, family. Gosh. You mean feline. You guys cannot be getting a note of cat urine. When I 1st went through, like, any sort of SOM training, they kept hearing this thing. Oh, that's very feminine. Oh, wait, wait, wait. this one. Wait, wait, wait, wait. This one's this one's not this one's not the Coverdale. Wait, amazing. Pin up. Pinup Cabernet is the favorite wine of the owner, Dennis
+
+[23:28] Della Montagna. He came up with a blending concept many years ago when the winery opened in 03 wanting a pinup label and being a photography enthusiast. He took his own pictures and had them placed on the bottles. It has since grown in popularity. Now, our own wine club members volunteered, had their pictures taken on the bottle. So this is not, is not the Coverdale. I apologize, not the Coverdale, not the Coverdale. So this guy wants to be a rock star. He's friends with you. with the rock stars. With Coverdale. He is friends with Coverdale. But this is not as... So this is not, by the way, if we're going to talk, we have to link it to a rock star. best pinup album cover of all time. Vargas, the cars, Candio, come on. agree with you. It's an awesome one. I don't know. This is hardcore, but pulp is pretty good. There's a blur. That's not, yeah, no. This is hardcores. That's a photo. Well, I guess it doesn't matter. It's classic. They, like, like, the cars literally got Vargas to do their album cover. Yeah, without know. I mean, I don't it's not even... Not for Duran Duran Rio, too. Really? I like this wine. You like this wine or no? It's like, it's easy. It's fruity. juicy. It's a jammy fruity. This is California in your face. It really is. Where are you from originally? Me? Mississippi right outside of New Orleans. Really? So you don't like having California in your face. Oh, no, I've been many a good evening that way. All right. Okay. So you're not like, you're not like a mud bug aficionado. I do love the mud bug too. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's fair few holes, I won't chrome in. Oh, man. Uh-oh.
+
+[25:01] This is this is fun. I mean, it's it's jammy and fruity. there's no way around that No, it's Big Jammy. This is like, this is like slutty wine is what this is. This is like, this is like, uh, like, how do you describe it? It's like, um, Parker style, but like big people who like that big style. So before the backlash that started in 807, Like, it used to be that, like, Americans, we made our bones on these
+
+[25:28] giant freaking wines, right? Like Naturleys, the screaming eagles that were unavailable, really expensive only by Liz. No one had them. And then, and those were in response, I think, to kind of like what Robert Parker liked at the time. And then what happened was, is you had a bunch of like young bloods being like, I don't like that. I hate it. I want austere. And then everything went austere. You know what I mean? Oh, that's just because they couldn't afford it. You think so? Seriously. Oh, yeah, totally. And to this day, I'm like, you know what? Like if you're at home, and here's what happened. The market got glutted with $10 giant fruit bombs, right? That were all like over tweaked at the winery, and then you had like a situation. So like back in like in the 90s, the best deal on Earth was the $10 black label Rosemount, Shiraz, right? It was it was like under 10. We were all dirt freaking poor, and I was like, I had this for under 10 bucks. You know what I mean? And like they were only making a certain amount of it, but then all of a sudden you realized that they made enough of it. eventually when it got popular to fill Lake Michigan. You know what I mean? And the quality obviously didn't stay as high as it did. We all got kind of sick of this style. It became more affordable and therefore became something that nobody liked and everyone wanted something more kind of austere. And I think it's like I was saying earlier, I don't know whether I said it on air. Like, there's music that I like now that I hated when I was a kid because I'm old enough to realize that everything has a place. You know what I mean? And I think the same thing goes with those big kind of fruit bombs. Like, they are an American thing, and we should just embrace them. Just don't drink them all the freaking time. I mean, but like, you know, you you get a really nice Montebello Ridge, which is a fruit bomb and a half, but it's complex and sexy and
+
+[27:12] just... I mean, it goes so great with steak. You know, why wouldn't why would deny yourself such a hedonistic pleasure? Like a Bueller cabernet with a steak? Yeah, come on now. I had a 13 Bueller this weekend. And every time I do that, you know, I do the I do the Ben Stein. Bueller. You have to. Bueller. Nine times. Yeah, good. My wife is very sick of my antics at this point. She's just like, we just had the freaking steak. All right, what are we drinking now? That's a big grand finale. Oh, this is the super fans. This is the super fans. So this is, again, back to Journey. Yeah, this but this is the fanciest one of the line. I'm trying to see which one is the, oh, the purple cuve, which we'll have next is the David, is the David Coverdale one. I think it's called White Snake. We just need white snake whites. Why, no, there's a white that they sent, but there's also the white snake purple. White Snake Zinfandel still. He made something called White Snake's Infidel, which is frigging amazing. Amazing. Amazing You got to play to the strengths of... But it's not a white zen. That's the thing. it was purple. Oh, yeah. Oh. Do you know that Dave Coverdale was in Deep Purple? Yes, he was. I didn't. For a couple years, yeah. Yes, he premiered on the album Burn. With Glenn Hughes as double lead vocalist, also the bassist. Glenn Hughes. Glenn Hughes is amazing. So I have 2 badass tenors. Oh yeah, see, this is much more austere. Yeah, this is Bordeaux. Yeah, that's how you smell it. This is like this is his left bank Bordeaux, you get. I think it's quite nice. Cap Solomerlot Kev Tronk right on the nose. I think this quite nice. This is like Bon Iver. Boney there. We went from Journey to Bon Iver. We just went. Is that how you're supposed to pronounce that? I don't know. You cannot say like it's French? not like Bon Heaver. No. Which makes me want to say it exactly the way you did. Yeah you totally should, man. Like, down there in by New Orleans way, you might mispronounce every French word, but not in an American way, in some sort of weird New Orleans way.
+
+[29:12] He's from Mississippi, just to be clear. Yeah, but it's all the same crap. Low countries, low country. 30 minutes from high school to French quarters. Yeah, okay. Low country, low country. doesn't matter I got a saint sticker on my car. There you go. You have a car. So cool. By the way, by the way, so you'll understand this being from that area. When I
+
+[29:32] was when I was going to get my dogs neutered, I kept on saying I was going to chop a
+
+[29:37] tulis their balls on. Oh, nice, nice, nice. Just so they wouldn't know what you were talking about. so great. Yeah. I like the Dave. This is really nice. This is delicious wine. getting notes of wheel in the sky. and I like it. This needs more time. Don't know where we're going to be tomorrow. I know. Hopefully back here, this is fun. Exactly. Nice. I like this is delicious. It's a straight up Bordeaux, nice. Is this as limited batches? This is this is his most limited. This is his most limited one. This is only 60 cases. This is 85. Yeah, but this is his highest end one. This is also 2010. And it's the finale, right? So it's a, it's a, it's a what's it called between the winery and Jonathan Kane. Collaboration. That's the word I was looking for. I personally hate collecting. I hate collaborating. Really? I hate it. I know. First of all, I'm just bad at it. For those of you that want to know, like, Nastasia has found what it's like working. Yeah, but we're, yeah. Nastasia knows what it's like working with me and she's describes it this way. Look at the 1st pilot episode of Veep with Julia Dreyfuss. When she, when she, like, has someone sign the document for
+
+[30:55] it, comes out and says, the amount of incompetence in this office is stagger ring. Like, that's like, that's it. like, that's what it's like. read your mind today. Nastasia, Nastasia and I are good. We've been together for like 8 years, so like working together for 8 years. So she, she read my mind because I was like, it's hot. She's like, yes, I know ice bucket. I'm like, You know what I mean? Do you make her feel appreciated? No. No. Altogether now. But does Sassi and I are like that? You know what I mean? Like, she doesn't make me feel like I'm like, she's like, she's like, you know, whatever. It's, it's, it's, it's, a little waist. I didn't I didn't make fun of you today. All right. I think it's delicious. You want to go to purple? Let's go to purple. We got a hurry. Yeah, finish this one. All right, we have more glasses. I'm here to talk about Burning Man. We had a question. Someone wanted to do Burning Man. Why don't you, while we're opening this next bottle? Why don't you talk about what the cocktail you made at Burning Man? Rothman. Formerly of Timeout New York. writer of the book. What was the Taco Book called? Tacos? Tacos. Recipes and provocations. Thank you, man. That's great book. Thanks. I wrote it. I wrote it. wrote that book. With my word. Yeah, I would have signed it with a... I'm supposed to write another book now. Well, we're opening this also. Oh, no, no, tredana, go in, go in, go in, go in, Talk, talk, talk. So last summer we made an acidulated cordial so that we could, the problem that we were solving was to make a shelf stable margarita for Burning
+
+[32:25] Man, and we did it, even though you were a huge ass, you were a huge asset to the process. You know, you know, you know what I like, I challenge all of you in your meetings. If anyone listening here has meetings, like to go in that meeting and slip this in to someone next to you. You're a huge ass hat to the team. Now, it sounds like you're saying asset, you're actually saying ass hat. So you got to slip it in. Yeah, you're a huge ass hat to the team. And then, and then like just like, let it drop. They'll hear asset and you said asset. And you feel so good about yourself. Amazing. amazing. I have tried to get my wife to do this in her meetings for, but she's my wife's like, she's like, you know,
+
+[33:06] she wants to do it, but she's like too professional. She's amazing. Anyway, whatever. because we have a good content. There's gonna be one person one day that inspires it. Yeah. You know, and... Also, like, we've put it out there to our the cooking issues crew. Someone out there is like, hopefully tomorrow. We'll tweet back to the cooking issues at cooking issues with I used ass hat to the team. So the dude that wrote in about the tiramisu? No, no, no. Right? got crme brulee, crme brulee. That's right. He wanted to make he wants to make crème brulee. We have another person who wants to make a cocktail this year. Oh, so he should cordial. He wants to make the cordial. So basically the deal was we approximated the flavor of fresh lime juice using
+
+[33:46] malik and lactic acid in like store bought, um, orange juice, which worked out super, super
+
+[33:53] well. actually. It was like a like the ratios were good. We just didn't use fresh line, which you were very upset about. Super upset. But that was the whole point of the problem. The whole point was that you can't bring fresh lines into the desert because they don't stand up in the desert. So we got as close as we could. And it was great. And I felt very proud of it. I would recommend to that guy that he, I brought like a large Poland
+
+[34:16] Spring, uh, water cooler, water cooler jug so that he could, I could mix it in
+
+[34:22] that and I kept it underneath the trailer and it worked out really well. All right, right. And it worked out super well. Dave's an asset to the team. People enjoy it? People loved it. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. They're literally like... And you hand them any cocktail or puzzle past ever. You could have served them poison. I just want to point out that there wasn't a time. There was a time when I was your favorite person. Dave, what happened? They're so mean to me. That means loves you. Jordan, the harder I am on you, the closer you are. Oh okay. That sounds like every abusive relationship ever. Give me... Give me some purple. Give me some purple. This is white snake, purple, cuve. Purple, purple. This is court. Perps. It was as porked as you can assist. This is awful. Yo, David, David, whoa, whoa. before we do that, does anyone else do some Harold McGee on this? Does anyone have some plastic wrap? Whoa. Does anyone have plastic wrap? We can get rid of this. We can get rid of it. Yep. There's plastic wrap on these. Get it in. Get it in. Get it in. So Dave Arnold, for those following at home, just jammed some soiled saran wrap into his wine glass. It's not soiled in the way that like Frank Oz with Jim Belushi's condom says soil. One condom, one prophylactic soil. But, like, honestly, honestly, if that helps, if what you're doing right there helps. Really? Yeah, no, I'd sooner pour that down the drain. Like pour it down the pour it down. Like, what are you doing? Hey, I want to drink that. We did a test. And he's swirling it as well. Yes, it looks it's smacking. It looks like a glass full of tenor of a tampon now. It's like a Tampa. So the molecule is, yeah, do it to yours. The molecule is attracted to the plastic. This is the theory. We've done this test with Harold McGee, and the large surface area of the plastic in the contact will preferentially absorb the corkedness. TC, well, my brain is so shafted TC. My brain's gone. I get it a minute. So if you're in a desperate situation, like if you're desperate, there's nothing else to drink. Water shots. How long do you like? Okay, get your plastic wrap. in a big bowl because you want to flash that stuff off. is volatile. No, it's gonna still be there. it a minute. Christino. You just, like, kind of scroll it around like this? And then no, and then actually, so he's now, I want to narrate this because what he's doing is he's squeezing out the saran wrap into it with his dirty
+
+[36:49] fingers and then... Rock and roll. Dano Spitzer is going to suck on the soil. This is making me gig. This is so important. still there. It's less. It's less. It's less. It's still there, but it's less. Tasting side by side, side by side. If I say what a red stained plastic thing looks like on the radio, I will... not wrong. It's less. And then just to continue the narration, Clifton, spat it into the spit bucket. With a horrified look on his face. Speaking of horrified, this date that's outside of our window is not going well. Yeah, no. There's a date outside of our window. Clifton is vomiting. Right in front of them. I have to admit, it is slightly less. Yeah. Boom. Slightly less. That Dave Marlon story. As we say, enfrancais, boom. Boom, boom. But if you could see the label in this one label, the label
+
+[37:44] is pretty. So it's slightly less terrible. Slightly improved. You guys, cheesiest label to date. Yeah, it's pretty best. Well, it's White Snake. Thank God. Look, white snake. Look, not for nothing. Do you know that David Coverdale was married to that... Yeah. And I'm thinking, what was that video they did together? Here I go again, am I? And still of the night. She's on a white Jaguar. No, but there's another one he did with her. Like, what's it, slow it, what's it, what's that song called? Is it Silva? No, they did still a night. She was in that one. Here I go again. On your own? Here I go again. How many different roads have you known though? I'm going down a different... Yeah, he's only known one road. That's the whole point. That's what's so genius about that song. It's not like a Robert Frost thing. there's no choice Nothing. No, no, no, no. The point is that you tried to divert from the road that he knows. And now he's like, you know what? This is who I am, this road, back to the road. And the problem is she's on the front of the car. How can he see where he's going? That's true. It doesn't matter. the only road. That's true. Here's the thing. It's the only road he's ever known. We think of it as like a one direction thing. But obviously, it's the only road and he's been there and back. He's like just taking the same road back and forth. Well, he's a drifter, so over. He's on a roundabout. Ultimately, he kind of... Songs about cul-de-sac. about that song, too. One, white's name. Fun fact number one. That song is actually a white snake cover of a white snake song. What? It is on an earlier, earlier album before he had a real deal. And the lyric was like a hobo. I was born to walk alone. So he covered himself for that. Number two, Dale. If he had said hobo, then like John Stewart would have Markdale's covers, covered it. That's right, exactly. And the other thing is... The flavor profile of this wine seems to be taken off of the residue from the top of the
+
+[39:32] Jaguar from the here I go. You guys, man. Let me taste it. Also, I met a driftware this weekend and he gave me knockoff candy. we have my point. Here's my point. Like, the wine is corked. We shouldn't judge the wine off the fact that it's court. But I will say this. If you're backstage at a white snake reunion, right, let's take your backstage. hard liquor
+
+[39:53] only because why am I there? Don't you don't want to have to bring an opener, go go screwcap. Yeah, agreed. You're not aging purple coops. But you know what you could do is just smash it on the hood of a white jaguar and drink it out of the jagged edge. First of all, that era of Jaguar was the least reliable car on freaking earth. Like, making Jaguars are the worst cars ever made. You're saying that to me, like, I'm claiming that they're the best cars ever. No, you said, don't have that Jaguar. Is a mistake. know what I mean? That's all I'm saying All right, so oh, we're moving on to the next winery. We going to come back. We're going to taste the wine for these, but we're on to, by the way, Les Claypool, huge influence on me. Les Claypool has a winery called Claypool Vineyards. And I first I actually only ever saw Primus once in concert. What did you see? 91. Ah, follow tour. Really? With Fishbone. There was Shirley season. Oh, I saw them in New Haven at the palace and in the middle of a song, I forget what it was. It was like, maybe it was defied the laws of creation, or like, or Mr. of Know It All. They call me Mr. know it all. when he goes, he stops and he really's like, he's like... I hope none of you are taking
+
+[40:57] hallusionary drugs. They're illegal and they're bad for you. And he's like, dude, I was like, what the hell, Les? You're so freaking high. They were amazing. Amazing. But we were having an argument before the show started over the best Primus album, and it's clearly fizzle fry. like straight up. Fizzle fry. Anyone who says anything else should be shot in the face. Like, Fizzle Fry is their best album. not saying I want to shoot you. But, wow. They basically... First of all, like, uh...
+
+[41:27] Blue Man, the winner's jumping. I rehearsing. I'm rehearsing for our bottle orchestra. As Daniel Grich are trying out for the blue man group. Listen, so the thing about that tour, so when I saw him in 91,
+
+[41:39] first of all, fishbone was awesome, obviously. Incredible. Fishbone was amazing. And, you know, like, at that time, people don't remember what music was like back then who are not our age,
+
+[41:49] but, like, back then, you, back then, you, no, but back then, for those of you who are, you know, not in their 40s or 30s,
+
+[41:57] like, it used to be hard to learn good music. It used to be like a thing you had to go do. You know what I mean? Like, Fishbone was never played on the radio and there was no Napster. Fishbone didn't get radio play until 92 was Sunless Saturday, and they made it on Saturday Night Live. They did a horrible job on Saturday Night Live. So much so that when I saw them in concert 2 weeks later, like they were heckled by the crowd until Angelo Moore went ape on the guy in the
+
+[42:22] front, like screaming at him. But they were one of the greatest live acts I've ever seen, Fishbone, and Primus actually really crushed it. But back then it was so hard to learn to like, learn to know good music, especially I was an East Coast guy. I'd never been out west, even though I was born there in California. So like, but all of my big influences with that west coast, that west coast sound. You needed, like, to know the cool guy at the record store who was older than you. Yeah. That was the only way. Yeah, and you needed to spend $15 on his recommendation. You know what I mean? You know, and then he'd probably clown you a couple times. Yeah. It was very high fidelity. Yeah, like, for instance, like, I bought the wrong Busta Rhymes album back in the day. And I was like, it took me years, extinction level event, and I was like, it took me years to get back to learning what good
+
+[43:09] buster. Not that that's a bad album bus. I was just saying. He was just on a, he's having a moment. Yeah. And it's not his best album. No, I would say definitely not. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, none of my Buster Rhymes phase are on that album. Anyway, so it was a big deal to buy an album unless your buddies already listened to it. So, uh, and I always ended up going on the tour after the album I really liked. So I loved Fizzle Fry. didn't see that tour, learned about it later, and went on the sailing seeds of cheese tour,
+
+[43:37] which by the way, that's probably, that's if I, if I had to pick one album. Really? They have a couple of books. I'm not a big primacy. Yeah, but... Okay, so, oh, don't start with me. But like, so there's a guitar beginning to, there's a song called those damn blue collar
+
+[43:54] tweakers, and the beginning of it goes, it sounds like you're diving in a submarine. It's like, That
+
+[44:03] sounds so enjoyable. Yeah, the guitarist, the guitarist. The guitarist did that for like 10 minutes straight to intro the song. Okay, I think he wanted to clear out all the non-fans. I forget who was headlining, whether it was fishbone or... or once again, if you're on psychedelic drugs. Probably go home now. All right, so let's taste his wine. Which one of them is it? They sent three. This is the Russian River Valley 2013 Peanut Nowhere. This is an extremely huge. Have you seen that commercial? Classy looking label. There's a commercial. I don't even know what the commercial's for and I don't really care. But it's the best thing I've ever seen on a commercial in my life. The guy is trying to impress his date. And he goes, Pinot Noir, which means
+
+[44:46] peanut of the night. And then he's like, I was like, boom. Anytime my wife and I have Pinot, we're like, it's peanut of the night. kind of like that. That's good. think it's good. It's good. It's good. It's a very, um, it's a very classy label. I was expecting something real goofy. This is really well made. It's really well made. Anyway, It's very subtle, which is not what I normally think of when I think of less claypool. It's rancho relaxing. Okay, listen, let's clay pool. Let's clay pool has... This is 1st of all, Les Claypool and his wife in 94, I read, bought a place, I guess, in Sonoma, right? And, um, they got interested in wine. And for a while, he was telling people to drink wine, I guess, as opposed to shrooms or whatever. I don't actually know what his drug of choice is. I know he used to do a lot of marijuana, but, um, I mean, he was probably high on hallucinatarian drugs when he told us not to take them. This is the pachyderm, uh, pinot. by the way. But this is, um, you know what? The guy is an extreme technician when it comes to base. Whether you like his bass or don't like his bass. He's an extreme technician. I happen to think the reason I like Fizzle Fry, the best of all of their albums is it has the best melodic sense. I think after Fizzle Fry in sailing season cheese, there's just so much virtuosity in all the playing from everybody that it doesn't become as enjoyable. Wait, can I just stop, can I just stop for a second? Yes, definitely. Jizzle fry? I can't take anything seriously called fizzle fry. Too many puppies. You know what a fizzle fry is? Okay, I think shop, and then when you get French fries and there's like the small ones that have like, that have gotten really, really well done. No, I actually really love those ones. Oh, sorry. Because like they're the crystal ones. Just a quick note, it's actually frizzle fry. Oh, frizzle fry. Let's claypool. That makes it sound like a bad air day. Less clayful, huge jack. A lot of fishing references and let's play for songs. Fish on, fish on. Herald of the Rocksman? Yeah. Does he like to fish? I just think you get disqualified from the world of music for the name Frizzle fryer. How old are you? How the hell old are you? 38? You should know better. Nah. Democrats, I remember you when you turned 30. I know, remember that? Strange, strange, tint movie, drummer for all that stuff. Tim Herb Alexander? Well, we have a lot of Claypool wines here. Once he left the world of Primus, he joined the Blooming Room. I played the game many times. Come on. Is he cool? Super cool. Good drama. Amazing drummer. Justin, you are such a find. you. That's all I'm going to say... going to say I love that 1st Claypool wine that we had. thought it was great. It was great. I was actually bummed that you brought it out to put in this other one. We have a whole bottle. All right. But see, I've got it all mapped out. It's gonna work out great. So we have 2 single vineyards going into the combined ones. But I wish that they weren't all called the same thing. I wish we had like Herald and Rocks. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe some differentiation. what was the difference? The one we just tried was the one we just said, so both of these are from the Sonoma coast. Since I can feel that Clifton and I are the only Primus fans. What's your favorite Primus lyric? I have mad respect. We need new pornos. That's a good one. Do you even know what this show is about and who is listening to it? I just like Winona having a big problem here. Oh, that's later, though. They already lost me at that point. That's still a good lurk. Yeah. Because she does show it all. Didn't Les Claypool get together with Butthouse from the limomaniacs and do something? Why are you looking at me? I don't know That's the best basist name of all time, Butthouse. Wasn't that his name from the limomaniacs? Anyone? Butthouse? No idea what you're talking about. Have you met Buckethead? I have met Buckethead. Oh! Without Clifton. Come on. How was he? Was he cool? It was super cool. It was when he was doing the show with GNR at Radio City. Really? Now, if you tell me that you actually know who the residence is, I'll stab you in the face. And I saw the residents tripping on mushrooms at the Warsaw in 2002. Really? Les Claypool. Were you tripping or were they tripping? Prime is covered, yeah. Miscellaneous debris. Yeah, and and the album, best album name, maybe ever, duck stab. Duckstab is a great record. What are you guys talking about? Do you guys want to let me know when I can come back? James Brown. Let's just start singing. Okay, here I am again on my own. I thought you were going to go into the limomaniacs. The toilet's flooding. The low down the only road I've ever known. Let me just figure out before we taste this, let's figure out where we are, like, personally. Do you guys know, like, the alien Jorgensen, uh,
+
+[49:26] Jello Biafra, like, lard? do you know, lard? No. No. Do you know what? We just... What? 1000 homo DJs? No, is that the same guys who did 1000000s of dead cops? Yes, that's awesome. Is that is that in Manage Z cops, guys? No, no, but it's analysis project. Really? Nice. So we found our level... Does he want us to leave, Dave? I've also I've also realized that Dave, you like absurdist lyrics in your in your
+
+[49:53] rocket. I do. Okay. Well, like, to some degree. To go to Jellobi Offa for a second. Best other best album other than duck stab, fresh food for riding vegetables. Yeah, fantastic. All right, but we got a taste, we got taste. All right. So, so this is the, uh, this is the rice spivic vineyard. So both of these have been single vineyards that we've had, and we're gonna take from the single venues and then we're gonna do the one where they're combined. All right, and then we got to we got to do some we got to do some Virginia. We got to leave time. We don't have a lot of time to go. We're really on a serious agenda here. We haven't even hit the whites. What do you call me? I like the other one better. That's my that's my Yeah, me too. Well, you know what, though? This one's this one wants to be a little warmer than this. Yeah, it's a little cold. A little chill. Both very well made. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Les Claypool and whoever they have making their wines is doing an excellent
+
+[50:45] thing. I'm going to give him a double thumbs up on that. These are base technicians. He's his own Siskel and Ebert. All right, let's go to Virginia. Let's go to Virginia. go to Virginia. We'll eat that. We have time at the animal Jason. Stipulated, let's play pool and his wine fold. Good peoples. Good peeps. All right, let's go to Virginia. Stas, bring him out. Bring him out. These ones? This is Dave Matthews, who is from South Africa. He's from South Africa, but he grew up in Virginia. We're white and white. Star Rosé. Star Rosé. No rosé. Oh, I thought you said you bring Rosé. What is happening? I feel like we've been waiting for a while with this music discussion. I'm just saying. Yeah, good point. All right, here's the Vionet. how do you pronounce it? Most of the show is about... So Vionet is the state grape of Virginia, which makes no dang sense at all because they discovered a freaking wine grape in Virginia called Norton, a.k.a. Cynthiana, but it's very hard to find Norton
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+[51:40] wines or Cynthiana wines that are good and or made. Because it's not Benefra. Right. It's how do you pronounce that? Estevalis or whatever, like, like, like, Estefan or whatever, like whatever it's called. It's bad species. Have you had a, have you had a Norton you hated? I've had Norton, it's fine. It's just, there's not a lot. Here the thing about Norton. Everyone says... Now I have, and Norton's chilling with Mario. one of my favorite Beastie Boy lyrics going through my head. But, like, my point is, is that, um, I feel that having read from
+
+[52:12] producers that Norton is given a bad rap because you need to age Norton for at least a good Norton for at least a 5 to 6 years before you drink it, and then it's only good for
+
+[52:24] another, like, 2 years. crazy. Yeah. And so I think there's a guy, maybe we go, maybe we go, insane, outside of St. Louis, in Missouri, there's a Norton tasting, a 10 year Norton tasting, if you ever want to go. All right. What are we drinking? wants a new best friend. Lion, Lion, Lion, Vineyards. You want to hang out one time? I think it's probably Blenheim. I think it's probably Blenheim. This is Virginia. Vionier is the grape. This is Dave Matthews bought this vineyard, I
+
+[52:49] think in like 2000 and early. And... 15, so it's a very modern... Right, no, but I mean, I think he's owned. I think he bought he built that thing on it. He, um... They have a bunch of winemakers. I forget the winemaker's name. She seems cool. I looked her up on the website. Here's a fun fact about their vineyard, literally next door to Trump Vineyards. Literally next door to Trump Vineyards. And I looked this up and I was like, Trump Vineyards, crap on you, not because of political reasons, but because the guy doesn't drink. So why should he own, which I don't knock him for not drinking because his
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+[53:24] brother, like, had a severe drinking problem. I don't knock it. But I'm saying, don't own a don't make a vodka. Don't own a winery, but the winery, actually, if you actually look it up, no matter what he said in the debates, he doesn't make the wine. He's not affiliated with the wine. His son Eric is the sole owner. Trump, Donald Trump at the Donald real Trump, whatever this thing is, he does not own Trump's winery, but they're right next door. I'd rather have him spend more time on that than the other stuff. He doesn't drink. I don't want a guy making a wine he doesn't drink. Yeah. You know who does that? The monks at Cho Chu's. They have their stuff twice an hour. don't they? Amazing job. killing it. Yeah, but none of them have some practice. Two guys now. and they can't fight. All right, all right, all right. Clifton, give me this. Give me. Give me. I think the nose is great. It's really light. It's really fun. It's super easy on the palate, great coiffure. This is a salt water swimming pool water. Now, now, now talk to me. What do you think about Virginia wine in general? Do you have a lot of experience with it? experience with them, but it's something that I've really been getting into lately, especially the cab fronts. I find like Virginia just to be kind of a... It's really cool for historical reasons because there was this dude way back in the day...
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+[54:40] named Thomas Jefferson. And he was like a big Bordeaux hound and he was really... Yes. He wanted to make Virginia into wine. And so it's like they've been trying and trying and trying and their work and they've been really kind of doing really well the last 20 years. Now, everyone got everyone, everyone got the everyone, yes, Hemmings, yes. We all got it. The one time I went to Monticello, by the way, which is only a couple miles from here, I went in. Actually, it says it here. No, but like the actual like Jefferson's Estate, the only time I ever went there. I went there and the ladies who are giving the tour there are like nuns for Jefferson. In other words, like, you can't insult Jefferson. You can't crack wise. They're like, they don't, they are not playing when you like mess with Thomas Jefferson. So don't go there and, like, Hemmings it up, making any wise. No jokes allowed. They look at you like, I made all kinds of wisecracks. And they were like, I grew up. used to just bring us to historical sites. That was like our family vacation. So I learned early on that no fun is allowed. No, my my stepfather made incest jokes at the Wright Brothers
+
+[55:49] Museum in Kitty Hawk. He's like, 2 dudes alone all that time on the beach. Like, and like, the lady not having it. Anyway. So when I went to Monticello, what I found is that they have an amazing historical garden at Monticello and nobody's tending it.
+
+[56:07] Go to Monticello right now. It's peak season and you can just rip all of the vegetables off of the vines and eat them. That's what I did anyway. I don't recommend that. That's not really nice. But they were not eating those possible. It's possible, and they're not eating it. a waste. Okay, so we like this one. I like this one. I think it's really nice. The interesting thing about Vionne is that apparently it finds a different expression, as all fruits do, in different
+
+[56:30] locales. So Virginia thinks that they get a very good expression out of this grape as opposed to, let's say, where
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+[56:35] the sucker comes from. Ms. Rothman does not like this one. Who doesn't? Ms. Rock? doesn't like it? making faces. Why do you not like it? She called it a water shot. It's a water shot. That's not the case. That's not the case. It's a 13% water. I like that, I like that saltwater and swimming pool description. I'm gonna use that. No, no, but it's got the salty, but it's not like heavy mineral. It's not like it's not like oyster shells. You mean like plural notes? You mean also it's like an easy drinker. I mean, like, I would like to sit next to... You're on your inflated pool floaty... I always on my freaking floaty, wearing a hat and long pants. Which kind of supports Jordan's thing, which is it's like water. You guys, you're wrong. I have a wide range of float days if you guys want to. Which one is this? Which one is this, by the way? It has a very grassy nose. Why? Yeah, not a grassy knoll. I get honeydew and overripe pear. tennis ball or cat urine. Cat, you're... Okay, so this... So, uh... This is what? You don't like those mellow saxolos? This is their tasting note. Saliche, apricot, citrus blossom, peach melon, bright acid for the union. Okay, all right, let's go on to the painted white. Painted white? I wanna do all of them. Yeah, that's it. Painted white. I don't have to say about that. It's going to have to be 2 shows. Oh, it doesn't matter. Paint away, paint away. 2 of these, Dave. No, this one. are we still on this? Let them, let them. This one. No one is listening at this point, by the way. So that guy with the creme brulee. Oh, hold on, hold on. Painted, painted white. 2014, 65% Chardonnay. Whoa, whoa, 65 Chardonnay, 25% Vionnay, 9%, 7-on-blanc. And 60% of it's aged, aged for 10 months in French and Hungarian oak, Hungarian oak. Hungarian? It's Oak from Hungary. Wow. I could not have figured that. obvious. Okay. dessert ones. This one's a continent movie. This is a note directly from the winemaker. You ready? It's awesome. I made this I make this wine because I wanted to have a heavier boulder white wine in our lineup. This wine usually sees a larger percentage in Oak for a longer period of time than most of our other whites. I try to select the best and or more interesting varieties. We have to blend together to create this wine. By the way, Dave, the Blenheim Vineyards does they produce their own graves, but they also buy other Virginia graves, but all the grapes are from Virginia, not from outside.
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+[59:05] They're not like trucking California grapes in it. Is there a reason why water shop? What you call that that has to do with Glen Matthews? I don't know. to me is my favorite apricot. So every time I hear Blenheim, I'm super happy. Anytime I hear... One of them people open a restaurant in the West Village. Was it a pre-existing thing before Dave got involved? It might be because on his website, the history of the land, I was like,
+
+[59:24] yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. Tell me about the wine. But there is some sort of history. There was a house. It burned down. It was called that. But the world's greatest apricot. Crap on anyone who doesn't believe it, is the Blenheim apricot, straight up. Punch you in the face if you don't like my apricot. I believe they never had one. Yeah, they're delicious. amazing. You better like California. Yeah. Anyway, okay, wait a second, wait a second. Some barrels will end up going through a malalactic fermentation, others won't. So it's a mix of some stuff that's gone maladic, some dope. yeah I'm really searching for it. I don't add malalactic bacteria to these barrels. It just sometimes happens when the sulfides get low. Some of the wine is in barrels from the juice stage, some of it goes into barrels once the Chardonnay and Villonier come out in early spring. Thanks so much for including our wines. I hope you enjoy them. It actually has like a nice acidity, though, but it doesn't you have a nice acidity. It's surprising because it's... It smells so sweet. It's like cotton candy and then it's... It smells exactly like cotton. Exactly the cotton candy. And then it's and then there's none of that when you drink. Andy Moore said, I'm missing you like candy. Wow. I like the switch. I like this in a good way. Okay, you're hired in the blue man group. Can you can you spit a ping pong ball up and catching your eye socket? All right, let's go, let's go. right over there. This is great. I like this. You don't like, we have a difference of opinion. Daddy doesn't like it. Daddy says no. Anthony, what do you got? What do you got? Daddy says good. I don't really like it. I like it. like both of these ways. I like both of these too. What's your clip? He doesn't like it. Cliff, what's your name? I find it to be very well put together. I find it to be very well made. It's a very, it's a good blend. It's a good mix, but like most of the white girls have dated when I lived in Mississippi. is fucking boring. Family show. He skated by. That was still family. Burn. Damn. They said the F-bomb. Now, listen, Jessica's crying somewhere. listen, I would be remiss. I would be, is that the name of the, is that the name of the girl? It was either Mary Margaret, Mary Lacy, Mary Helen. Okay, listen, listen, listen. One of the, I would be remiss if I didn't... I'm not actually gonna actually going to crack. I'm not gonna crack the joke because it's not good. I'm going to explain what the joke would have been. It's well not made. That's even worth sounds a good idea. on an hourly radio show, but let's talk about it. It's well known that it's well known that Dave Matthews tour bus driver dumped all of the poo out of the tour bus through a graded bridge in Chicago onto an architectural boat
+
+[1:01:58] tour. What? And then they got coded in Dave Matthews poo. That the most rock and roll thing that band ever did. That's like, it's a well-known fact that, yeah, it's just like, they're all like, that's what happened. And they didn't give a shit. Family show. But the fact of the matter is, Dave Matthews was A, not on the bus. He was not on the bus. And they immediately apologized. They paid everyone. They didn't even get to be coded in Dave Matthews Pooh. No, no, no. I mean, he was his poo. Here's what's on the bus at the time. Have you ever been on an RV? I've never been on an RV. No professional poos on the bus. Speaking. Yeah. My point being that they, the bus driver, A, went to prison and B, paid a fine, was
+
+[1:02:43] fired and Dave Matthews, like... He went to prison for that. Oh, he was the fall guy. No. No, Dave Matthews handled it very well. And the point is, is that a lot of his fans. And I'm not a fan. I, like, I don't don't care about that style of music. It's not my thinking. But, like, I don't hate him. I don't love him. He's just, I'm nowhere on him. It's some, it's sort of like, uh, I've never seen a fish concert. I've never seen a Dave Matthews concert. I did see a Grateful Dead concert in the 80s. But we want to talk about that? Yeah. Oh, 80s ripping. Yeah. But my point is, is that I have no, I have no pony in this race. But the thing is, he handled it well. How do you handle it? But that's it. No, but my issue is I was going to make a joke about fertilizing with his tour bus. Ah nice. But, you know, what? I don't even, I don't understand. You can use this to fertilize. There a lot of backstory you have to know to get. Yeah, I mean, such that's why I didn't do it. I got it, but you did do it. You did it for like 5 minutes. But I like I like knowing that story because I, I mean, I didn't even know that story, but I usually don't pay like the news alerts for Dave Matthews
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+[1:03:47] band, I turned, I never had them on. Really? Yeah, I did not even in like high school. but never. Look, the guy... I would have random notes, the hell out. Listen, listen. I like I like those wines that they made. I'm a huge supporter of not newer because it's 100s of years old, but like up and coming wine regions. So I'm like super jacked about Virginia wines in general. I really like that. I liked them both. And, um... Yeah, and I don't listen. Like I said, I'm not like musically that's not my my jammy jam, but... You like jam, though, if you like Primus, it's jammy. Yeah, but like that like, well, I'm a bassist. Definitely not to bring it back. a bassist. I a bassist. So if you're a bassist. Does that mean you hate bass players? No, I love play. That's bassist. That's yeah, that's basis. I missed that. okay Yeah. Anyway, and so like, there's no one that handles hammer-ons and taps in the way that Les Claypool does. I mean, and I'm a huge fan. I got Dave Matthews right now. What? no, yet. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, it's not, I'm not like, it's not like my style of music. You know what I mean? But he does do a lot of stuff like farm to table. He's from Virginia and South Africa, but he grew up in Virginia and he's gone back there. He has a farm there. He supports local farm. farm to table on the tour bus. That's for sure. Farm to tour boat. All right, I'm done talking. Hold done. No, he's cool. in that way. Yeah. And it's like, you know, the dumping poop off the tour bus kind of way. When's Steve Miller going to make a free wine? That'd be amazing. Do you like Steve Miller? I love Steve Miller. Yeah, he's incredible. You know what Nastasia once said? No hit songs. That's not right. The Joker? No hit songs? Steve Miller band's greatest hits. It's not accurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway. And Steve Miller apparently also good guy. paid the guy who wrote Big Old Jet Airliner. Paid him even though he didn't need to pay him, paid him, and that was the only money that freaking guy made. And he was blind. All right, so this, we're back to DLM. We're going back. That's the dude from Tenatuva. Exactly. Oh, and he also went to and became like the Mongolian throat singing champion. Yeah, which no one should do. I made a good documentary. That was a good movie. was a good movie. It was good, right? It's one of those weird things. It's called Genghis Genghis Blues, worth watching. It's not really 2 notes. People, people. It's not really 2 notes. They're just getting some resonance in their throat. Who's Daniel Dancers? You're just making Didgeri do noises, Daniel. That's no, that's that's dark. producing the harmonic above the fundamental tone. As we say, enfonse, error. That is not like, that's not really 2 notes. Two notes is producing like an A and a D at the same time. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, you know not of what have you said? No, no, I enjoy not of what you speak. That's the issue. enjoy not of what you speak. Dave, you know a lot, but no, you like that stuff? I like it? No, but it's but it's interesting. You know what? Like, I can, like, like, kind of like, frizzle fry. I can listen to like Pakistani, like Sufi music, like the Sabri brothers all day long because that stuff rocks. Like people sitting down and trying to make harmonics with their with their throat. I agree. It's a party trick. I just dismissed a whole culture. That's rough. American. No, but that's Miracle. This comes in here. All right, let's go back. We on TLM. We on DLM. DLM Riesling. 2012 North Coast, the COV. Studio. Studio. Yeah really? Riesling. Look at the cave drawing that's on the label. Flying V. It's a caveman with a flying be. That is pretty strong. Flying V, by the way, not a very good guitar shape. Oh, but it's excellent for getting to high access. Rick Nielsen. Because there's no there's no stopping again. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, but most of those guys aren't really like, who played a flying V that like needs that? Like, who's like Randy Rhodes? I completely misunderstood Flying... Kirk Hammett. Clifton. All right. I lose. I lose. He's like a medalist. I think you've really met your max. I lose. I lose. I'm willing to know what I lose. Yeah, we can keep going. The F and V has its place. It's not a really good sounding guitar. Michael Schenker. But you do it for what you do. Michael Schinker. You know, it's not your only guitar on the stage, usually. But you whip it up for certain songs. My uncle, my uncle Marty sold everything he owned to buy a Flying V in
+
+[1:08:21] 1979. Well, that was not a good idea. Yeah, it definitely was not a good idea. I mean, if you're having one guitar. Yeah, it's kind of it's a novelty guitar, but... At the time, he was going out with a go-go dancer. This was in New Jersey. I would have loved to party with them. That sounds like a great time. It sounds like a Springsteen. He bought his purse, flying B. like... throw it everything here. Come on, guys, everybody, grab a bottle. Let's play. Anyway, flying beach. I can still remember. I can still remember what you... I was only 8 or nine. what she looked like. It was like right before the 80s hit and she had that, she had that like that flare out in her hair and the frost, the slight frost and like
+
+[1:09:09] the the cheek thing. don't know what you mean by that. You know, like the red on the cheek thing? Oh okay. a certain ruddiness? Not like, you know, rouge. I don't know. I don't know whether she was old school. It was just for hookers. Oh, you're calling my uncle's girlfriend from 1979 a hook. What I'm saying is that ladies pinch. Ladies pinch. Ladies pinch. Man rubber band. Man rubber band. Men contour. You dropped the rubber band. Hey, if you've never known anyone who has danced a man who's danced
+
+[1:09:39] for a living, rubber bands play. We all know a man who's danced for a living because Clifton's here. He dances clothed for a living. He dances. That's what you think It's all pain. And he's not that close. Family show. He's closed now, people. I want you a visual image. We all have clothes on. Will someone take a group photo? Anyway, so we have a lot to get to that we're not going to get to. I'll get to it next week. I have questions on, uh, possible cancer links with Carraginen. For the Crab Rulee. For anyone who's still listening, Greg Blander from who's amazing. Go to his blog, Greg Blander, wants anyone to talk in, call in, tweet in about vacuum
+
+[1:10:19] infusion, vacuum marination, and pressure marination, because we're going to talk about it on the show next week, our experiences with it. We have to talk about cordial Burning Man. I have a whole bunch of stuff I have to get to that's not rockstar wine related, but this has been the rockstar wine cooking issues. And maybe if ACDC sends us some more wine. will do it again sometime, but this has been a thank you, everyone. Cooking issues. What, no bottle workers? Come on. I been waiting.
+
+[1:10:52] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes Store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] I do my show on the Heritage Radio Network because I think it's important to talk about the impact of technology on our lives.
+
+[0:06] I do my show to reach home cooks and help them do better. I love getting together with people in the industry. I like hosting my show because to me, it's the stories about people and their relationship to food that help make the food more interesting and more delicious.
+
+[0:21] Our hosts do their shows as a labor of love, but we still need your financial support in order to keep the lights on and keep the tape rolling. Please become a member today at heritageradionetwork.org. Today's program is brought to you by Firesider, a health tonic based on the traditional New England
+
+[0:39] cure all of raw apple cider vinegar and honey. For more information visit firesider.com. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:03] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. coming to you live. Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday for me, a little late this time. Still roughly noon-ish to like, you know, around one o'clock. Every Tuesday from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. What do you think? Hey, speaking of Bushwick, Brooklyn. My subway, you know, they're constructing or something, so it went like one stop too far and I got to take a different walk than I normally do, which means I was paying a little bit of attention. Some classic Bushwick on the walk over here. Check this out, Nastasia. First of all, pass by King's Distillery, you know, which is right near here, King's County Distillery.
+
+[1:46] And, like, typical, like, by the way, this neighborhood, if you've never been to it, is like a bunch of hipsters have actually moved here, but this is supposed to be an industrial neighborhood,
+
+[1:54] right? It's like all like low industrial neighborhood with rollups, like some residential buildings, and like just like a lot of trucks and stuff coming around. So anyway. Like, they have their warehouse here, I guess, or maybe it's even where they age it. The rollup is up because it's hot as hell, right? No one guarding it, all their whiskey barrels right there. Literally, like on the ground, like, if it had been you and me there, I would have been like, let's just, I mean, like, let's leave a note saying we're not actually
+
+[2:19] stealing. This is a security test and just roll it. Just roll it, roll it up, roll it down the street and go. There was not a single soul there. Then I loop the corner and I find that, of course, someone's working on a high low, because someone's always working on the roads around here on the overheads, on the wires, and some incompetent truck driver, like, you know, okay, sideswiped
+
+[2:40] it, so there's a, like, the complete street is completely shut down because of this, like, giant truck sideswiping a
+
+[2:45] high low. Then I see like more classic Bushwick, a 76 El Dorado convertible, which, by the way, is a sweet car, but beat completely to hell, Nastasia, and being used as a extra storage closet because they don't want to pay for the, you know, what are those things
+
+[3:02] called? The storage place, yeah, Manhattan. Yeah, but here's the classic and here's what makes it so awesome and something that I would have done back in the day. They got the historical license plate for it. So they wouldn't have to pay as much for insurance and they can still keep it on the street. Oh, Brooklyn, you know how I love it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, do any good cooking? No. No. No, but you're getting a duck meal report from my sister's roommate. Yeah, a lot. Yeah. All right. So, roommate, like, lives with her. Okay, who is it? JR. JR. All right. So he's being called a roommate for the purpose of the roommate, but it's lame. She won't call in. She's always busy. Yeah, huh, busy. Busy, busy or scared? We're not sure. Well, that's JR when he calls in to the show at 1230.
+
+[3:53] So, what else? Is your chance to check out JR then? Make sure he's like, you know, a solid dude. Well, I mean, Nastasia knows him quite well. I mean, I don't know. like, you know, my opinion on it is, you know, quite meaningless. Calling your question two, 718-497-2128. 718-49721, uh, 28. We have a lot of questions to get to because we didn't do any last week because of the rock star thing. By the way, I'll, uh, one thing... I'm not sure people liked it. Yeah, I'm not sure if people like it. Some people liked it. I got some tweets that some people at least liked. David in the booth. Hello, David, I forgot to call you out. How you doing? Hello, good, how are you? All right. Are you, did you hear anything one way or the other? Do they like the new that that style of show? Yeah, chat room, a couple people wanted to have some questions answered, but I think generally the response was favorable.
+
+[4:38] By the way, I cannot believe that it was on August
+
+[4:42] 8th, and no one made an 808 reference. Nothing sounds quite like an 808, David. Money making, money, money. Disco discovery. Anyway, okay, so we got a bunch of questions. We have a caller, too, whenever you're ready. take the caller first. Call her Get on the air. Hey, it's Judy from Malden. Hey, what's up? I was just gonna, in fact, I have a question from you today on cookies, right? Yeah, the cookies. Well, you don't have to answer the, how many cookies I should bake for a $100
+
+[5:14] question because I think I figured that out. Well, was the answer? So the question, by the way, people, like, because I was going to go into it. What was the question was, a colleague offered her $100 to bake in quotes, a
+
+[5:28] bucket, a bucket of cookies? And the problem is nobody knows what a bucket of cookies looks like. I mean, we know what a bucket of chicken looks like, but no one knows what a bucket of cookies looks like, right? So what was the answer? And how'd you come across the answer? Uh, I'm thinking three. Three cookies? No, no, no, 3 bats. Oh, 3 batches. I was like, 0 my goodness, that is a tiny bucket or a very large cookie. So how many cookies in the batch? Like, how many... How many how many cookies? Well, 1st of all, like, when you say a batch of cookies, how do you want to scale? you want to scale it in cookies? Because cookies, if you bake them like my grandma did, they're tiny. If you bake them like, you know, like Tozy does, they're bigger. We're talking
+
+[6:05] Tozy style size cookies. I'm baking Tina's cookies, so they're about a heating tablespoons. Okay, and so 3 batches. like how many roughly cookies like that as 3 batches? Uh, well, last night, one batch was 26. All right, so this person's getting like 75 cookies, assuming that you eat one from each batch to prove that they're okay to yourself. They're getting like 75 cookies for 100 bucks? That's a freaking steal. That's a steal. This is still, it's like, um, you'd have to pay $200 if you want. What size bucket does that go into? Does that go into what size bucket is required to hold this thing? I'm not going to buy a bucket. It needs to buy a bucket. Yeah. See, see, I was thinking about this question, you know, and so
+
+[6:54] the, by the way, folks, for those you don't know, they, they, you're not, you don't, like, do this for a living. And in fact, what the, the, the problem here is you're shifting from a, uh, I don't know if you've read, uh, either predictably irrational by Dan Arielli or, uh, Richard Thaylor's misbehaving or not, Dragales, but you're moving from a
+
+[7:13] a social norm, right, where you're baking cookies for someone because, because they're your buddy, into a market norm and it's like totally different. And I think you've fallen into, you've fallen into this uncomfortable, like, in between situation because if the person was going to pay you for the, see, you're basically, you're putting yourself out in a discount situation, which, like, if you're happy to do it is one thing, but in general, when you switch from a social norm to a market norm, and then you undervalue yourself in a market
+
+[7:44] norm situation, that can lead to, like, resentment, let's say you're not willing to bake that many cookies for that amount of money indefinitely,
+
+[7:52] right? Then all of a sudden you put yourself in an untenable because you've anchored the price, right, with this coworker. Is that really what they want to do for a living? I don't necessarily want to have the same career trajectory as
+
+[8:06] Christian Tozy. Right, right, right. But my point is, is that, okay, if you're over delivering, right? Let's, if someone asked me to do something, I'll give you another example. I know a wedding photographer, right? He hated shooting weddings. He hated it because he's a photographer. wasn't a wedding photographer. What happened was someone said, hey, we want you to shoot our wedding. And he's like, I don't really want to shoot weddings. They're like, well, we really want you to shoot the wedding. So he goes, okay. And he puts it at a number so freaking high, right? That he's like, you know what? Like, if they go for this, they're crazy and I should do it because that's so much money. They went for it. He did that and then he got a bunch of those other high, high, high paying jobs. If he had gone low just to do it as like a marginal favor, then he would keep getting asked. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, I would, like, I would, I would say... I
+
+[8:54] charge more for cookies, I'd be able to buy a seed rack and more.
+
+[9:00] Well that's the thing. let's say, let's say you think, like, let's say you were going to do this even like marginally, right? Like, the 1st batch you do, you have to say to yourself, okay, if I don't really want to do this for a living,
+
+[9:11] like, what's a high enough number such that I won't be asked to do it again? Right? And then, like, that's what you that's what you charge. And if they go for it, you're like, well, maybe it's worth doing after all. I have to reassess my choices. If, if you do it, uh, and then, and then it doesn't even matter really what you make off that one batch, because you're like, okay, maybe I'll do this
+
+[9:29] again, and I'll invest in a bunch of equipment I want in anyway, like a speed rack, a bunch of sheet pans, maybe some extra
+
+[9:35] sill pads, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then down the line, you'll get a, you know, a bigger oven, yada, yada, yada,
+
+[9:40] right? But you price yourself so high that you're like, but then if you put yourself in a situation where by the time you factor in your time and anything you have to buy and the goods that you're manufacturing, the actual
+
+[9:51] cost, because remember, you're buying ingredients probably and paying a lot more for them than someone who does this for a living
+
+[9:56] is. Do you see what I'm saying? So like you kind of like have undervalued yourself in this situation. I was thinking about it on the on the ride over here. I mean, of course, like uh, eggs cost a few dollars, butter
+
+[10:07] costs $3. Yeah, yeah, that's on a good day. That's on a good day. I mean, butter on super sale in a regular supermarket paying retail is $3 a pound. You know what I mean? Anyway, my point being, you know, you just have to like kind of factor these things in when you're switching. Because, see, what I would do is like, like, I think that anything less than $2 a cookie and you're, you're valuing yourself below the market. And then if they say no, I don't want to charge professional prices. Well, but that's my point. These are people I know, like, I would, I would start, like, a perfect stranger, maybe more money. Yeah, but see, I think it's like tough. It's like, you got to read this book, particularly irrational, where here's the scenario. Let's say someone shows up at your house for Thanksgiving, is the scenario he gives in the book. I think it was this book. And, uh, and you cooked them a nice Thanksgiving meal because they're your family and you love them, right? So you cook a nice thing. And then what if someone got up afterwards, like, okay, how much do I owe you? You'd be like, what are you talking about? How much do you owe me, right? Because if you were going to do it for a living, you charge a lot more. So you're like putting yourself in this uncomfortable kind of in the middle position. Unless you're happy to do it. But then like be expected to ask to do it again and again. You see, I would charge, like, I would charge enough that it would be professional prices, then they would say, oh,
+
+[11:22] man. And then you'd be like, you know what? Here's a batch of cookies on the house because you're my friend. See? And then like, you didn't have to go into the market, and yet they got some cookies and they're still your friend, but they won't ask you to do it again because they know now that when you are charging for cookies, you charge this high rate.
+
+[11:39] You see what I'm saying? Oh, uh, I guess I see what you're saying, but there are also, for the people who have eaten these cookies in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. it's an uncomfortable thing. No, I think we should, it's the topic. You tend to talk about the same subject. I think there, I was just finishing listening to the last podcast. It's fun if it was just 15 minutes. But nobody got to talk about anything else. Right. Well, that was a special, it was a one off special, like, rock and roll wine thing. It's not like a normal podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I would consider that like a... Yep, I would consider that just like especially. Okay, but... I didn't give that her home address to perfect strangers. She did that? Nastasi gave out her home address to Perfect Strangers last week on the show? the book Oh, yeah. The pressure cooker. Oh, you got it? I don't have it. Oh, she'll bring it in. She'll give it to me and I'll read it. Yeah, no, I don't have it yet, but I... Send it to her sister. Oh right. Yeah. Well, I'm going to read it 1st though, right? Because you wanted me to get some. Yeah, I'm going to read it 1st and then we'll give it to now the sister. She's not going to be, she doesn't want to be the dunk meals correspondent anymore, but apparently I was mean to her on the phone, but she's having her, We're calling him... No, now she's calling. Oh, she's calling? She's crying. with both you and stars. Well, that's what makes the show work, right? If you only sided with one of us, then it wouldn't be
+
+[13:12] fun, and you would just, you know. But, yeah, I don't know. I think that's enough for today. All right, cool. I usually wouldn't be able to call in like this, but, um, working at squeaking, uh, has taken a big emotional psychological
+
+[13:31] pull, and, uh, do you got, how much do you know about squeaking? Not much. Okay, so we make uh, 300,000 an hour at live store, Monday through Friday between 11 to people will wait upwards of
+
+[13:50] the half hour, and there are several in your area. All right. in New York and Manhattan are over here in Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, every, well, I don't know if they're in Brooklyn, but we're in Manhattan. Well, definitely check it out. And you think about the cookie price. weekday afternoon. All right, you think about the cookie pricing more and then, you know, email us back and let us know what you think. No, you think about the curing saber question. Okay, all right, will do. We'll talk about it soon. Alrighty? Okay, all right. All right, thanks. All right, bye. All right. Uh, wait, so what were we gonna what were you talking about? Don't know. All right. Let me see here. So your sister, like, decided to call in after all, Nastasia? think so. You think so? Anyway. All right, so I feel like, uh, we had, um, um, we got a question in last week from Chris. Here it is. Have you looked into the level of evidence linking Carragin into inflammation or bowel cancer? So, Karaginans, for those of you that don't know, are a class of hydrocoloids that are developed that are made from various species of red seaweed, right?
+
+[15:02] And carraginans are thickeners, have been used for centuries and centuries in cooking. The common name would be like Irish moss, and they have a very specific synergistic reaction with
+
+[15:18] milk. So the super interesting thing about kerraginens is that because of the synergistic reaction with milk, it takes a preposterously small amount of
+
+[15:28] kerraginen to gel a milk system. So it's used extensively, especially in things like
+
+[15:35] yogurt and ice cream, and other thickening chocolate milk, for instance. But it's typically used in vanishingly small amounts because of that
+
+[15:47] synergistic effect with milk. Now, also an interesting thing about kerogenans is kerogenans are not a, it's not like sugar, which is pretty much just a molecule, sucrose,
+
+[15:59] right? Uh, Carraginans are a, a, they're a polysacride, but they're not, in any sense, pure. In other words, they're a mixture of 3 or 4 different types of molecules. Now, the main molecule kinds are kappa carragin. And kappa carragin is brittle. And it's very, very closely related, actually, to Agar, which is another
+
+[16:20] hydrocoloid. It just has the difference between them has to do with the sulfates on them. Anyway, so Cabacaragina very close to Agar in structure and in texture, in fact. It melts at a lower temperature than Nagar, but it's fairly similar. There is iota kerragen and iota is a lot softer and bouncier than kappa.
+
+[16:43] So it's very different kind of, uh, even though it's very closely related, very, very different kind of texture. Iota is also interesting because gels made with iota. And when you shear them, will re somewhat reset after time. So they're interesting for that. They're widely used. Lamb kerraginans are more thickening kerraginans, they don't really gel, but all actual natural kerraginans are mixtures of these things, and they're made industrially to specify certain kinds of uses.
+
+[17:15] So, it'll be, if someone says they're giving you cap the carragin, what they mean is they're giving you mostly cap the carragin, with a bunch of other stuff, and if it's been standardized, for a particular application, let's say ice cream. Anyway, so that's a long introduction into what, so long, in fact, my phone was like, maybe you're not watching me anymore and it turned off. So that's kind of what Carragin is. Now, um, The thing about it is that, um, it has been, It was rumored to have caused cancer. Now, most of the stuff about cancer and specifically in kappa
+
+[17:48] keragin, and it comes from decades ago in the 80s.
+
+[17:53] But every once in a while, there's a kind of a resurgence of it. And the question is how strong is the data? Uh, and then, um, I'll read exactly what uh, the question was if, uh, oh, it got, uh, it got Oh, okay. Have you looked into the level of evidence linking Kerogans to inflammation or bowel cancer? I'm still on a quest for a fresh espresso, espresso, frappe, that is stable for at least 5 minutes, and land the Kerrigan scenes promising, but Wikipedia and a few other sources, not just crackheads, suggest a potential risk. Thanks for any insight you might have, data or alternative approaches. Love the show every week and looking forward to the centrifuge. Chris. Okay, so the deal is, is that most of the current stuff that's being put out, when I say current, really like 15 years old, in this country anyway, is put out by a particular person. Her article, her name is Tobacman, and her review article from 2001 is available on the web for free.
+
+[18:47] Um, and it's called something like uh, potential health effects of Kerogen and the dietary Kerogenen. And here's the deal. No one really thinks that Kerragen, the actual Kerragen is bad for your health. All of the all of the data is focused on something called degraded kerogenin or polygenin. And what this is, is, uh, carraginens that have been broken down into real, real, much smaller, um, molecular, uh, weight molecules than you would have in, um,
+
+[19:19] carraginum that's actually kind of used, uh, industrially. And so her point is, and so basically, no one thinks that regular kerragin is causing cancer, okay? Now, the question is, is, okay, now does this degraded kerogen and
+
+[19:36] polygen and cause cancer? Now, most of the studies for degraded kerraginen are feeding directly feeding degraded kerraginen to things like rats. pigs and mice. And in general, they're feeding them at levels like one% in the diet, i.e. one% of everything that you eat is
+
+[19:57] degraded or drink is degraded carraginen. And at levels between one% and 5%, which is a gigundous amount of
+
+[20:07] keraginen, um, of degraded straight. They feeding a straight degraded carragin in either in the liquid diet or in the solid diet. There, like, it does show, um, it does show the, um, the
+
+[20:20] increased, uh, cancer rates and inflammation rates in those things. The studies in, 1st of all, you can't do that study in humans, that would be ridiculous, so no one's done that. I believe she has participated in some epidemiological studies. I didn't get a chance to read them. Now, here's the issue, right? That's all degraded Keragen. one of her main arguments. She has 2 main arguments. One, that, uh, Karaginan's as sold, like I told you before, don't have a specific molecular weight.
+
+[20:48] So any carrogenan sample that you have, possibly has a bunch of lower molecular weight polygenon in it,
+
+[20:55] right? Because they're not specified. Now, whether or not an actual sample has that in it. Who knows? I don't, but it's not specified, for instance, or written in it that this contains no fraction smaller than, let's say, you know, 10,000, uh, you know, uh,
+
+[21:10] Daltons, and whatever, however they measure it. I don't know how they measure it. Um, Because Dalton's, I think, is only for proteins. I can't remember. Okay. Point being that it might be poly dispersed this way. The other issue, she has is that, is that in the stomach. Now, when you, the way you make polygenin, degraded carragenin, is you take
+
+[21:28] carragenin, and you heat it in the presence of acid. And so one of the contentions has always been that in the stomach,
+
+[21:34] possibly kerogenans can get converted into degraded kerogenen. So there is a study that she references in her in her 2001 study from 1983, done in Europe, where they just took
+
+[21:46] Carraginan. They put it in at 37 degrees, which is roughly body
+
+[21:51] temperature, and they put it at one .one molar hydrochloric acid, which
+
+[21:56] is, by the way, the maximum that your stomach gastric juices ever
+
+[22:00] get. And actually the pH that they had, which they referenced. I dont know if it was a typo. They referenced that they had a pH of one that might have just been a typo, which is way below the pH of gastric
+
+[22:09] juices most of the time. Most of the time your gastric juices are about 0.5 0.5 to
+
+[22:16] 0.one molar hydrochloric acid equivalent. Anyway, that neither here nor there. And they showed that there was kerogen degradation being done over that length of time, 6 hours inside the stomach, to the point where it was classified as having some degraded
+
+[22:32] kerogen in it. Now, 1st of all, that's showing that taking kerogen in and putting it in the stomach creates some degraded kerogen. Remember, though, in the other ones, they're feeding straight degraded carrot gin and not partially degraded, you know, full carrot
+
+[22:45] gin. And furthermore, logic would dictate that that degraded care
+
+[22:49] gain, it gets degraded even further into smaller subfractions. So I would say the evidence relatively weak, very kind of weak. The evidence is weak? The evidence is weak? are weak. Anyway, I would say it's weak evidence. I don't feel bad feeding it to my family in the levels that are currently being used. I don't see any reason why this particular hydrocolloid. In other words, I don't know that, like, they didn't say, okay, we did the study with
+
+[23:15] Carragin and now we're going to run it with Agar, and yes, Agar is much worse than Carragin. So I don't really, the studies didn't have kind of that level of understanding why there would be a causal relationship versus other kinds of similar undigestible fibers.
+
+[23:30] So until I see that or until I research more, I would continue. Me personally would continue to use it, but that's the actual data if you want to go look at it and make a decision for
+
+[23:41] yourself. Yeah? Hey, Dave, we got JR on the line. Oh, so it was JR. All right, JR, you're on the air. Our dump meals, our dump meals, co-corresponding JR. How you doing? I'm good. How about yourself? Doing well, doing well. So describe the dump meal you made for this this week. didn't make it. Okay, describe the dump meal that Natty made for us, our other dump meal correspondent Natty. the reporter on the dump meal. So what was it? Right. If Natty's the dumb meal correspondent, I'm like the auxiliary reporter. Oh, I like that. So you're like, okay, the yeah, I don't know. Well figure it out. You know how like CNN has a 1000000000 titles so that like every one somehow seems like they're the chief political correspondent. You have to, seriously, like, there's 50,000 people at CNN who are all somehow the chief correspondent for something.
+
+[24:29] It's kind of like, you know, there's a sculpture in front of Columbia University's art, uh, sorry, a law library that is the largest of something, but it has so many qualifiers on it. It's like the largest semi-relief, semi-freestanding, attached law school. like one of those. So we'll figure out some title for you like that where it seems like you're in charge. Right, right. You've got a chief, like, country correspondent, chief, US correspondent, chief, US
+
+[24:54] correspondent, it's all about, you know, trying to get some names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you want to? what do you want to be? You want to be the chief national dump meal correspondent? You know, I'm just kind of taking it day by day here, just kind of not get yelled at. All right, all right. Well, listen, if I yell, remember, I've never met you. So if I yell at you, it can't be personal. Right exactly. Yeah, yeah. All right, so go ahead. So what was the meal? So the so the dump meal? So there were 3 actually this week that we tried out. Again, I didn't make them personally, but I had some kind of role. Um, we had a peach cobbler. Oh, peach cobbler, describe. How do you how the hell do you make a cobbler dump? What was the crunchy on top of the cobbler that was done in the in the crock pot? Yes, um, there, it was pretty. I was surprised at kind of the texture and that it was actually like crunchy. Oh, what was it? had a good element there. Well, what was it? Do you know what was in it? Sorry, I couldn't hear you on that one. What was in it? Like what were the ingredients? Like, what was the preparation? Um, so, again, I was working the late shift, so I didn't have great details on how it was made,
+
+[26:04] uh, but I do know that there was some granola and I think peaches and a few other things.
+
+[26:10] But peaches, when you say peaches, are we talking like peaches like off a tree? Are we talking peaches from a can? Are we talking peaches, the rock star? We're talking about peaches from a can, not from a tree, but they were actually pretty good. It was delicious actually. So canned peaches and granola for a 1000000000 hours in a crock pot is fundamentally what we're talking about? Here we go. Recipe called for one. 5 cup oats, two-third cup buttermilk baking mix. Buttermilk baking mix. What is buttermilk baking mix? He said, I used the one for waffles and pancakes. This quick. Teaspoon, cinnamon, teaspoon, nutmeg, one cup sugar, one cup light brown sugar, 8 medium, peaches, slice. Whoa. So an actual peach was killed for this? I used for because it was a mini crockpot. I left it in for 6 hours. It took some night cool and passed out. And never mind. I was actually told, I, you know, again, my correspondent gave me the details that it was actually real
+
+[27:07] peaches. Yeah, yeah. Real peaches, yeah. Is there NyQuel in the dump meal? Is it like a is it like a nutcracker dump meal? Wow. In which case, you have visions of it being awesome. And you're passing out. So the oatmeal somehow crunched out on top. All right, what was the 2nd dump meal? By the way, what is your idea of delicious? Do you find McDonald's apple pies delicious? No, I don't. Okay, why? Tell me why. So I know where you're coming from. Why do you not find the delicious? There's a, I mean, I think there's a feeling of freshness in the cobbler that we made that isn't there in the McDonald's. He's being like a real CNN reporter. They're avoiding the question. Anastasia, 1st of all, takes exception to the Wii aspect of this. Secondly, like one of the fundamental problems of the McDonald's apple pie is it is weak in acidity and salt.
+
+[28:02] At least, okay, I haven't had one in 20 years. But back the last time I had one. And I've had them both baked and fried because they did a switchover, right? And they're just not, they're not, you know, what is, what, in your opinion, what is the best easily gettable fake, mass-produced pie? Right. No, I mean, what is it? What's the what? Yeah, it's like, do you like hostess pies? don't. Okay, hostess pies are poor quality, but they taste good. See, I'm trying to like ferret you out here. Why do you not like hostess pies? Why do I not like them? Yeah, do you not like them in theory or do you actually think that they are a bad tasting item of food? Um, I think they're bad taste and, like, frankly, I think that people want things that feel fresh and feel like there's real sugar in
+
+[28:49] it as opposed to artificial. What's artificial sugar? You mean corn syrup? Yeah. Don't get me started, JR. All right. All right, what's the next what's the next dump meal? What the next dump meal? The next one is mac and cheese. Oh my god. Okay. So how was mac and cheese that had been kept in a crockpot for 6 hours? It was actually quite good. Use some shell, Austin noodles. Um, and I don't know, like very good. Oh, it wasn't necessarily very, like, dewey, um, in the way that, like, Wait, so wait. So if it wasn't, in what way was it good if it wasn't, give me the recipe,
+
+[29:31] Nastasia. I don't have that one. We have to get the actual recipe so I can insult the actual recipe bit by bit. I don't have any idea what JR's actual, like, yeah, no, what his like idea of a good mac and cheese is. JR, you're a, you're a, you're a Yale, yes? Yeah. Okay. I have had Yale University's macaroni dishes in the past and they're Roman rice and beans and all of those things. How did it compare to Yale Dining Hall? Um, I actually, this was... Wait, what? He fuzzed out there. He's got, he's just like a real correspondent when like, when the going gets tough, the, the, the feed gets dicey. right. Chat room is suggesting that JR is in the pocket of big dump meal. We're keeping it. We're keeping it accurate on the show, though. We're going for real. Alright. So wait, so wait, how are you there, JR? Okay, how was it compared to the Yale dining hall, macaroni? I said, I thought it was bar superior. Far superior. I would also tell you that personally, I'm not a very big fan of the dish general, but I really like this, and it was, even
+
+[30:39] in like the heat of the summer, It was very good. It felt like very even light, I would say. Okay, but like, what was in it? Was it just like a mac and cheese or did it have chopped up tomatoes on top, for instance? Did it have a breadcrumb topping on top that was added after it came out of the dump extravaganza? Because that would add some sort of texture to an otherwise textureless overcooked pasta dish. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. What was the, uh, what was the, what was the cheese component? Do you know? Did you see what cheese went into it? I, um, but I, I, I, I, Velveeta, please. I know, I will. Please, Velveeta, Velveeta. By the way, Velveeta. I don't think we've talked about this on the show before, but Velveeta was built for queso. You like queso, right, Stas? Yeah. Yes, queso delicious. Rotel, tomatoes, Velveeta. Here's a secret, though. Velveeta is very expensive. So if you don't want to use all Velveeta, you can take Velveeta and supplement the rest of it
+
+[31:39] with like other cheeses and use the excess emulsifiers that are in the Velveeta to pull everything back into the queso kind of
+
+[31:47] a rum. All right, did you have another dump meal to describe to us today? have one last one. Yes, I have sticky rice pudding. Oh, that was actually, this is the one that was used from a new
+
+[31:59] book that we received recently, and as opposed to all the others that you've heard about over the
+
+[32:07] course past few weeks that were from one book. And this one was also good. It was kind of like a coconut sticky rice pudding. very flavorful. Um, and yeah, very positive readout. Literally all 3 were very, very good. Did it use Thai black, sticky rice, or did it use regular, short grain, glutinous white rice? We use it. What? Was it white or black? See, my sticky rice puddings, I like I like using the Thai black, sticky rice. It still has a hole on it because it, like, do you ever use that stuff, Styles? Remember, we used to cook with it occasionally. I love that stuff because it's glutenous rice on the inside, but not as sticky on the outside. It's got that beautiful color to it. That, well, look, honestly, if you're gonna crock pot something, like a sticky rice pudding, that's the one that I would go for of these three, right?
+
+[33:00] That's the one that I would probably go for. But what we need is we don't have a list of the stuff. And so we know what went on top. The main problem we have here, JR, is that there needs to be a differentiation
+
+[33:10] in texture in foods that you eat. Otherwise, this is the problem with nursing home food is that there's no freaking differentiation and texture. Everything is made so that it can be gummed by anyone because they don't actually respect the people they're feeding. That's a harsh generalization. But I'm saying that in many places that I have seen, there's a lack of in hospitals as well, a lack of respect for the eater. And what that typically means is I'm going to make life easy for myself, and I'm going to jam Pablum down your throat with no texture, right? And so the problem with the dump meal in general is the creation of alternate textures, same problem with
+
+[33:42] anything. Same problem, low temperature cooking. Same problem with all this is that you need a variation in texture. So, like, my, one of the key questions here is if I'm going to write a dump meal book, right, all of the
+
+[33:54] textural adjuncts are going to have to be thrown on after it comes out of its 6 hour hell steep inside of the little bucket of
+
+[34:00] death. You know what I mean? Like, there's plenty of stuff that can chill for 6 hours that are relatively high temperature. It's just, but you need to somehow crunch it up. Like, what's one of the greatest things on earth? Duck confit. One of the greatest things on earth, right? Yeah, but who eats it right out of the thing without crisping up the skin? Enemies of quality do that. Evil people do that. You know what I mean? It's like, anyway. So, like, what we have to figure out is how the different textures were black. with the ingredients. not to be scared. Yeah, don't be scared. And listen, if you want to be the chief national dump meal correspondent, you got to get the recipes
+
+[34:32] down, so you can insult them or whatever. I mean, I don't know whether you're taking like, we have people accusing you, JR, being in the pocket of Big Dump. Hey, I mean, I guess I should have disclosed my interest before I came on weird. Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, listen, we appreciate it. And we'll get those recipes and we'll report back to people maybe next week. Thank you. Thanks a lot. All right. Thanks for having me on. Have a good rest of the show. Cool, thanks, bye. Okay. By the way, remember Russ, who is 23 wrote in about espresso a while ago. I feel like we didn't fully answer this question. We did? All right, Russ, if you need more information on how to go cheap on espresso. I'll say this one thing in case I forgot to say it before. The issue is, is that because he was interested in using that ROK, which is the pressure thing. in it. All right, look, I'll just say this. Again, there is some thing cool about taking the incredibly hard route to make a single cup of coffee when you're 23.
+
+[35:35] The problem is, and I say the same thing. It's about people who are doing, like, back when everyone was writing about doing, um, low temperature cooking, by using coolers, giant, like, uh, insulated
+
+[35:47] coolers, and, you know, can you cook a steak using a 5 gallon cooler and, you know, heated tap water by calculating
+
+[35:54] that all the, the final temperature and your temperature drop and the, and the strike temperature of the water? Sure. Let me ask you this. Would you do this on a regular basis? Answer, no, right? Because when do you actually need coffee, Russ? Like, you need coffee in the morning when you are not a human being? When you wake up and your eyelids are glued shut because
+
+[36:14] you're like kind of sick and you had all those things, you were working on the night before, you're tired is all, heck, you can barely get up to go to the bathroom and take a shower.
+
+[36:22] And at that moment in your life, it's when you really want a nice good cup of coffee. And if you have to go jump through 18 flaming hoops at that point in your life to get that cup of coffee, you're just never
+
+[36:36] going to have that cup of coffee. That's all, right? What do you think, Stas? don't care. About coffee? really don't care. About what? About coffee, about making coffee. I just don't care. Nastasia buys her coffee on the street. No, I just make it into Mr. Coffee. Why do you not care about coffee? I just don't care at all. Why? I don't know. Why? Because I put milk and sugar in it. So you're saying that people who put milk and sugar in their coffee shouldn't care? I just really don't Why? I just don't hear coffee to me is coffee. What's interesting, what's interesting to me is that you're like obstinately don't care. It's not like, well, because it's only because you care so much that
+
+[37:15] I I'm letting you know I do not care. Because I care, you don't. So if I didn't care, you would care. That's what you just said. That's what you just said. But I'm letting you know, because you can't, that does not get through your head. I do not care about coffee. All these years, 8 years. I don't care about coffee. Before I met you, didn't care about coffee. Do not care about coffee. How do you consume something every day and not care? How do you like every day consume something? I like care. what I brew and that's it. Well, but you said you like it. doesn't mean you don't care. Well, no, it's my point is... Well, you should share a ton, and I'm saying, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, she doesn't even listen to what I freaking say. What I'm saying is make your life easy because in the morning, when you actually need a cup of coffee, you don't want to have to jump through a bunch of hoops. You literally didn't listen to anything I said. You didn't listen to one word that I said. I said that when you're 23, you were willing to go through a bunch of steps to do something, but taken
+
+[38:12] mind, the fact that you need to do it a lot and you don't necessarily want to jump through those hoops all the time. You're telling him to perfect it. That's not what I said at all. That's not what I said. I said you can do that as an interesting exercise, but it's not something you necessarily want to do
+
+[38:25] every day. Didn't listen to anything. People does not listen to a thing I say. Did not even get the gist of what I was saying. I do. You did not even get them. I didn't know what you were saying. How do you not get the gist of what I was saying? You start talking about coffee and I'm done. See, that's what I'm saying don't even care about what I'm saying. I could be saying, don't drink coffee. I can be saying... You know what you should do? That doesn't matter what you say about it. Just buy no do. Just buy no dose, crush it up and put in Kool-Aid and drink in the morning, caffeine pills. Just get something to make you poop in the morning. buy you a mixture of X-Lax and no-dos. grind it up and put it into milk and have you drink it. Coffee. Like when I stayed at your house, I had to bring my own Mr. coffee. Do you care enough to bring your own freaking coffee machine? No, but I'm saying you're just a liar. You can't only be confident. all you care about. You care a lot. She care people, she doesn't care about popping. I have an automated machine. since, like, I have an automated machine. She cares enough about coffee to bring her own coffee machine. If she really didn't care, she would just turn on my machine and take whatever came out of it. I don't how to use it. You had that like drill on the top of your bean thing. No. No, 1st of all, then you could just bring coffee and throw coffee into the machine. You don't care what it's like. You don't care if it's pee water. You don't carry a machine. No, no. keep on making up new things to go along. You said to me, I'm not touching your machine because I don't want it. No, no, no, no, no. That's garbage. You are just obstinate. I'm not. You want me to care about coffee? No, okay, people. anyone in the chat room happens to be there right now. Does someone who does not care about coffee bring a coffee machine to somebody's house 3 hours away that they had to unplug and take off
+
+[40:03] their counter, bring special coffee to use because I don't have that kind of ground? Yes, you did. special meaning any. I had coffee in my house. So the she goes, stay out of my house, brings her coffee machine and brings her coffee. I submit to you. Does this sound like a person who does not care about coffee, especially because you could drive
+
+[40:21] 5 minutes and buy other coffee. No, no, no. Or does this mean someone who just obstinately, like my racist dead grandpa,
+
+[40:29] obstinately only enjoys having garbage to shove it in other people's face and say, see, I like
+
+[40:35] garbage? That I submit to you is what is actually happening. No, I'm not saying I like garbage. Yes, you are. I'm saying I like garbage. You are saying that I will drink water. No, that's not. Someone who doesn't want to spend time wouldn't have thought to pack a coffee machine. Because everybody needs coffee, right? doesn't everybody need coffee? No? No. No? In the morning? No, like I say, I mean, I'm going to buy you X-Lax. No, no. And grind it up, it'll have you go to the bathroom the same way and it'll wake you up the same way. Chat room is a fan of Mr. Coffee, by the way. Thank you, chat room. Yeah, but I'm not, I don't, I've never shown anything negative about Mr. Coffee. Like, I mean, if you're gonna do that, like, you probably get a techniform. I don't know if they still sew those, but I'm not a saying that there's anything wrong with that kind of coffee. Nastasia is saying there's something bad about that kind of coffee because she doesn't care about it. And so because she hasn't cared about it. told me that you think it's crap. I never said that. I said, the coffee that you buy every day in the morning. No. Nastasia goes to a street corner. I don't anymore. That's what we were talking about. Okay. That, when I was telling you, you like crap. That to me tastes like Mr. Coffee stuff tastes like the street coffee. Tastes like the stuff I grew up with. Nastasia used to say that the apogee of coffee production was to go to a quilted metal box on the side of the street with
+
+[41:58] plexiglass and get coffee that had been brewed at 3 a.m. With beans that God knows how old they are, like makes chock full of nuts look like the greatest coffee on earth, was kept in a swill bucket that entire time, right?
+
+[42:15] And then served her at some point later in a Styrofoam
+
+[42:18] cup that she then ate, drank 20 minutes after that. That, she didn't just say that that was acceptable to her, which would have been one thing. She said, that's my favorite coffee. The apogee of all coffees. The apogee of all coffees, people. I never said that. Uh okay. You said that's your favorite. Anyway. Okay. Uh, do we get any, uh, David from the chat room on whether anyone's tested
+
+[42:46] vacuum, uh, tumbling or uh, pressure infusion? I'm not sure. Let me check. Yeah, because remember, we're going to try to do something with Greg Blonder from genuine ideas on that. My gracious. Did we did we handle the bitter orange question? Just got an email from Ken Inber, who said fantastic fight. The I don't care about coffee even fight is fantastic. You are taking the husband part and Dave is taking the wife part in a high energy, pointless bicker. First of all, what makes the what makes one wife and one husband? What's the difference? I don't know. Chat room did say this is the Godwin's law of cooking issues. What's Godwin's? I know what that means. That is the adage that any discussion on the internet eventually devolves into somebody making a comparison to Hitler or Nazism. So wait, which one's Hitler or Nazism? No, you made a, you made a racist. Oh, my grandpa was racist and is actually dead. No, not that specifically, but just the idea that, like, a discussion will eventually devolve into that. Yeah. Well, that's like, you know, I don't know about Godwin, but it is 100% true that high school debate, everything there ends up with nuclear war or
+
+[43:59] fascism, like Hitler, everything, everything. Anyway, do we answer the bitter orange question already or no? Last week? No. Okay. This is from Matt Hall. I recently prepared some Cuban style pork shoulder marinated in a mojo sauce. I initially cooked sous vide and finished off on the grill. I live in Rochester, New York. Our local Wegmans grocery stores are great, but they're not bitter orange is great. The usual recommendation for simulating bitter oranges is a mix of sweet orange and lime. I decided to research the actual composition of bitter oranges, uh, and sure enough, uh, citric acid and malic acid are the primary constituents, but I also found references to fumaric acid.
+
+[44:37] The below article is once as example, blah, blah, blah. Further research shows that fumaric acid is a well-known assigilant for foods. My question, do you have any experience to comment on whether fumeric acid provides a unique contribution to the flavor profile? Spectrum Chemical supplies food rate for Mark acid, and so I'm ready to give this a shot one way or the other. Thanks. Um, and so the answer, short answer is no. I also know that it is used as an acidulant in foods, but I never bothered sourcing it, um, because I was talking to some professional, um, food formulators, and I talked to them about it, and they
+
+[45:12] said it's mainly there to adjust, uh, pH, to be to be an acidifier without having that much flavor impact.
+
+[45:20] So it's actually more, it's less of a flavor impact to sigilant and more of just a, um, like something to adjust a
+
+[45:29] pH down. I don't know if that's true or not, but I remember that they, they, someone said that to me and it stuck in my head. And once that's stuck in my head, like kind of the fire inside of me to go get it kind of fizzled out. Um, also, you know, I try, I try to, you know, when I recommend things, recommend things that are easier to get than stuff that you get on spectrum
+
+[45:55] chemical, because their prices are really high. The exception is quinine, just because quinine's a unique kind of a thing that you
+
+[46:03] need and the results you get using quinine sulfate are so different from the results you get using
+
+[46:09] cinchona bark. But I get your point. If anyone out there in Chatland or of can tweet me that they've used fumaric acid and whether it tastes substantially different,
+
+[46:21] I'd appreciate it. I mean, obviously, you know, the major acids we use are all different lactic, uh,
+
+[46:27] malic, citric, tartaric, uh, and uh, phosphoric, phosphoric being the most different and one that Nastasia does not enjoy. But do you like cola? But you don't, you never liked anyone's, like, any, everyone who's tried to make a drink with phosphoric acid in the bar you've hated, right? I think so. Is it just because they think they overuse it? Yeah. I can taste it pretty... You also don't like, if you know there's bicarb in it, you don't like bicarb, like all those adjusted waters with bicarb you don't like, right? David got to wrap up in a minute. Oh man. Yeah. All right. Wasted on a fight. Wasted on a fight. All right, well, let me, oh my god, we have so much else to talk about. Like plums and bitterness. But anyway, I guess we'll have to get back to it next week. Cooking issues.
+
+[47:21] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[47:31] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[47:50] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, and she's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from, I don't know, like sometime, like kind of around 12 to like 1245,
+
+[0:42] 1255 sometimes one, Eastern time on the Heritage Radio Network, and Brooklyn, and the specific area in Brooklyn is...
+
+[0:51] So, uh, we are here today. Dave's in the booth of David's in the booth. How you doing? Hey, hey, good. Yeah, we do not have Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. She is in Naples, not Florida. Naples, like the actual city. Oh she didn't retire to Florida? Can you imagine Nastasia retiring to Naples, Florida? Um, no. She's in the actual, you know, Naples, like Napoli. When I was a kid, you got, like, we have some guests here to take
+
+[1:22] Nastasio's place, but before I get to that, David, where did you grow up again? Outside of Philadelphia. Yeah. Did you get the Nopoli car advertisements when you were a kid? No, never saw them. See, when I was a kid, the word, Napoli, to me, was a used car salesman who literally called his used car lot,
+
+[1:40] Napoli, like, new cars, used cars, come to Napoli. You never heard this commercial? Anyone? No? No. I think it was a New York City environs area. So, like, to me, like, when I think of Naples, I think of used cars. I don't think of, you know, I mean, that's kind of sad, right? The local commercials here are pretty amazing. They got a leg up on Philly for sure. Yeah, as I said before on the air, nothing on New Orleans. New Orleans has like some like sweet local commercials. So taking Nastasia the Hammer Lopez place. We actually, we have 2 people here. One officially says she's not here, but because she's here, she actually is here. We have, this is not who I'm talking. Nick Wong and Nick. Hi. Hi. Yeah. You might have remembered him from the last time he was on the show and he purposely made faces at me, which you can't see. through the internet, but wasn't saying anything, but today he's going to say stuff, right? Stuff. stuff. Yeah, right. So Nick came to work with me at the French culinary, when were you there? 2008? 2008. And then after that went to Sambar for what, like a 1000000000 years? Plus two. 10000000002 years at Momofuku Sambar, and then decided he needed to, uh, sow his non-Momofuku Oates, and where'd he go? You went to Gramercy, and then you went out back to California for a while. worked with Chris Costantino, right? Where else did you work anywhere else there? Nice to dodge a few places. And then, and you hightailed it back to the, to the good old east coast. Even though you're from California. I say you're from Milpitas, but you're not. Yeah you just made that up. I made it up. Wow, you just pulled that out of your ass. It's close though, right? Yeah, kind of. I mean, it's a, you know that Booker doesn't allow me to say the word Milpitis. I think you told me this. Yeah, Booker, because, like, I think it's a hilarious word, and obviously it sounds like, you know, like, you know, like, like, junk, like, man junk, kind of like,
+
+[3:37] like, a meal, Pete, like, it sounds weird. It sounds weird. It's like the town. my other favorite one, the booker won't allow me allow me to say over here in Connecticut is the Mayenus. He won't let me say the town name Myenus. Is Tony Myenus? There is. Well, he says it's pronounced meenus. and I'm like, prove it. And I've never had anyone call in who lives there and be like, is it Manis? Is it Mayanis? phone lines are open Yeah, yeah. Call in your questions or your correct pronunciation of my anus to 718-497-2128. That 718-497-2128. So anyway, where are you actually from then if you're not from Milpitas? Samateo. All right. So then after that, he comes back to Momofuku Sambar. What your current title there? Chef duisine. Chef de cuisine. That's one of those weird titles. Chef de cuisine can mean like almost anything, right? Pretty much. Yeah. So like, you know, but you're actually coming up with recipes, right? You got anything new you're working on? Not really. Come on. What do you got new that you're working on? What did you put on in the menu last month that you that you think is fun? Uh, we just did a new scallop crudo dish what's going on on this menu tomorrow. What kind of scallouchy game? Good ones. Pretty good. Like, like you're getting like C Bay. What are you getting? C Scalps 1020. Yeah, 1020. You know, you know, my favorite scallops ever? Are the freshest scallops ever? You ever, like, hang out, like, where they bring the Nantucket scallops right in and just get them, like, right there? Is it over by my anus? Well, pretty close to my anus. Everything. wherever I'm there, my anus is always pretty close. But the, uh... No, but like, uh, Nantucket scallops, like dayboat, like right off the
+
+[5:11] thing or like... I've actually never shook the livestock. I've always wanted to. Yeah, well, the other thing is, I think even when they are like live, like on the shell, like how long they've been in transit is a huge impact on kind of their kind of flavor profile, but I don't know, it's also like when you're hanging out up there, I don't know,
+
+[5:31] every, all the seafood like has, you know, it tastes like you're eating it in New England. You know why? Because you are. You know what I mean? Food really tastes different depending on where you're eating it, I think. Like your mental association with the food. Like if you hate the people cooking it, it never tastes as good. Yeah. What if you're eating it in my anus? Well, again, I won't go back into it. You're not going to draw me back into this, Nick. And we also have, oh my god, that was a good one. David, was that you or is that Nick? I wasn't looking. That was me. Sweet. That's sweet. We also have with us Estra Wester, what's your last name? Huh, cool. And you're a cook at which one of the Daniel Belut establishments? Cafe. Cafe Ballout. How's it going over there? Yeah? What are you making anything fun? You got anything fun? fun dishes? fun dishes. Yeah. Something that's like, I have to go try it. I like I need to like run. I mean, it's a great place. What do I need to go there and eat like right now? She put Korean food on a French restaurant's menu. Really? We're like, what kind of like hook me up? Because also cafe balloon is, like, of all of them is the more traditional, I mean, like actual, like, Danielle, I haven't been in years and years, but when I did go, like, it was like hardcore, like,
+
+[6:49] Garadon service, like, like, the waiter knows how to, like, get the fish out of the pastry and then, like, debone it and put the
+
+[6:56] fillets without touching it, like, hardcore, awesome, like, like, tears to your eyes, old school
+
+[7:01] French. But, I mean, to tell you how long ago the last time I was there was Dominic Anstell was still the pastry chef there, so it was like a long time ago. But, uh, you know, they all, they also had their share of like kind of like, um, you know, kind of cutting edge and weird stuff to go with the old school French, but I've always pictured like kind of
+
+[7:17] cafe balloons being like, like, you know, like a bashing of kind of like a lot of the old school cool Frenchy stuff, right?
+
+[7:24] So how do you Koreanify? Koreanify? Koreate? Koreate? To create a dish? Yeah. At at Cafe Balloon. How do you do that? What did you do? Like, what are we talking? Did you add some pepper paste to it? Like, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Did you throw some like wild mountain pickled vegetables onto it? Did you like, what did you do? Uh, we have we have a voyage section of our menu, and it changes every season. So the next one is Korea. So I was trying to pitch a dish for fish. That's good. You have good alliteration there. It's rhyming more, but like more rhyming. We have a good dish for fish. So, like, what else what are they doing in Korea? Like, how big is the voyage section of the menu? It's a quarter of our menu. That's a big voyage So how long have you been doing voyages? They didn't used to have that years ago, did they? They've had it since Gavin. So, like, so, again, a long time. But like, so give me, give me a, what are you doing to the fish? What are you doing? So I'm doing, the special for this past week was a take on Aguchin, which is a braised monkfish dish in Korea. Good or bad? Visually, pretty shitty. Like, it's a pile of red fish, and then soy bean sprouts. So once you overcook a monkfish and then you keep going, like what happens?
+
+[8:50] No, right? Because, like, monkfish, it's interesting about it is it's got that, like, kind of, like, shellfishy kind of texture to it, right? So really, it's okay. So, like, you know how, like, okay, you know, Nick, we used to have this discussion, so it's been a long, you know, been having it for years and years. Back, I would say, like in the mid 2000s, right? When everyone was interested in these hyper low fish preparations, and like the, the thing that people were most worried about, like in life was overcooking your fish, right? That was what everyone was like, you know, and, and when you're cooking that style, that prep style, which I think, you know, a lot of it came to us via, like, um, like the Rokas in Elkalar Conroca over there, because they were doing a lot of that really low, really low temperature fish. Or, you know, and then later on you had, I
+
+[9:36] guess when modernist cuisine came out a couple years ago, like that super low temperature gooey duct, this stuff that is like not really cooked in the classic sense of cook.
+
+[9:44] And so for a number of years, like cooked, when I say cooked, I mean, like traditionally cooked fish dishes were like not served, like you wouldn't get them. You know what I mean? At a lot of restaurants. Um, but monkfish is one of those fish that I think you want. Like, I don't really particularly, and people are going to get mad at me, like the low cooked shellfish, except for the gooey duck, actually, that Mirabel and Chris Young and those guys did. I thought that was excellent texture was. But in general, I mean, I don't like my shrimp hammered. I am not a barbarian. I mean I like it cooked, but I don't like it. But I don't like it when it's low, especially something like a shrimp. You know how when shrimp is a little bit too under, and it's still got a little bit of that paste, that little bit. Hate. don't like that either. Hate, hate. Hey, we got a color on the line. All right. hold on a second. So yeah, so we're gonna take a call in a second. But here's my question. So when you're doing monkfish, you actually want it to be a little bit springy. So it seems like it would work for a dish like that and you shouldn't be a phrase to do a longer, afraid to do a longer cooked version. agree or disagree. Agree. Is it just raised? No. Oh, so yours is not braised. The traditional one is braised. We kind of revamped everything so that... Because you thought the traditional one was too hammered and you didn't want to serve people like... Also, it looks it's a pile of red. Pile of red. you know, if you're going to have a pile of something, I guess green would be your 1st choice. Red would be your 2nd choice. Brown is last. Brown is blue is last. I'll take blue over brown. All right, call her, you're on the air. Oh, hey, it's Judy from Malden gun. Hey, how you doing? Nastasia is has your cookies in the freezer. I know. We had our wires crossed a couple of times. I think the cookies are where box is good in her building. No, no. They're apparently they're in the freezer, but we won't be eating them next week on the air. It'll be the week. No, no, no. There's another cookie. I've designed like 10 signatures for buying out, which is crazy. But uh, yeah. So what do you got going on? What do you got going on? You got a question for us? Yeah, there's one specific question. You wanted me to tell you about, like, what I had come up with in terms of pricing, but there's a
+
+[12:03] cookie with Cheetos in a stew cookie? So, how do you get the cheeto to stay crispy? Oh, well... I mean, you need to use a... Cookie, Cheetos are, 1st of all, you have to, if you want a Cheeto to remain crispy, you can't use the puffy ones.
+
+[12:23] You have to use the hard ones, the ones that are less expanded. I am using the hard ones. Alright. So that's your 1st step. The 2nd step is that you're going to need to choose a low water cookie. You know what I mean? A low a low moisture cookie. You're gonna have to go hard bake. Like you're not going to get a soft baked texture because it contains moisture and also have your
+
+[12:43] Cheeto remain hard unless you did some like real fancy
+
+[12:48] footwork. And I have to think about it. Uh, but, you know, because there is a classic cookie that I didn't know existed. Maybe you guys know this existed. Maybe it's a California thing or maybe it's a Massachusetts thing. don't know. King Arthur Flower has a recipe for it because the Chester County Fair where I was last week. They had a contest for it. Potato chip cookies. Potato chip cookies. Oh, I like the 2 chips and Tozzy's combos cookie much better than I like pretzels. I think pretzels are just kind of gross. My favorite to cookie is corn. Yours, Nick? Compost. Compost, my favorite corn. I don't like the coffee in it, like kind of, there's coffee in it, right? I like the coffee. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan of coffee flavored cookies. I mean, they're good. My favorite court. Anyway, that's not here to there. Yeah. Do you like coffee flavored ice cream? No. mean, I can appreciate that it's done well or done poorly, but I don't like it. You know what I mean? We know Nastasia doesn't like it. Yeah, I mean, I will eat it. Unlike Nastasia, I will eat something and I can appreciate if it's well made. Dunkin' Donuts. What? Oh, no, she is Dunkin' Donuts coffee is way too high rent for Nastasia. If it doesn't come from, like, a guy that made it the day before, like, like, on literally being sold on the street. She doesn't actually enjoy it. If the taste of the paper cup doesn't like... I told Staws an email that you have to get like a Mr. Coffee and a can of
+
+[14:17] shock full of nuts just for her, really. Yeah, chock full of nuts. That brings back some pleasant memories of getting, no, they're not pleasant. What am I talking about? No. Yeah, chocolate nuts does not bring back pleasant memories. I mean, it's fine, whatever. My mom used to, my mom went to med school when I was a
+
+[14:33] kid and the only source of nutrients for the med students without leaving the hospital at
+
+[14:38] Columbia uptown was a truck full of nuts. And so like I spent a good chunk of my childhood only eating crappy, overwrapped, and sometimes rancid cream donut pastries
+
+[14:50] from, I never forget, I didn't, I used to hate cream donuts for like, like 10, 10, 12 years because I got one that was moldy, and it knocked me off of cream donuts at, at a chock full of nuts in the
+
+[15:02] 70s, in, you know, uptown in New York, and it knocking off a cream donuts for like well over a decade. I don't, I still don't like them. Ill eat them. Do you like a cream donut? Like moldy cream donuts, only moldy. Only moldy? Only mold? I like Boston Korean Jetta. Of course, because you're from up there. So the, uh, uh, uh, but, and so, so can donuts, like, people order extra, extra, even though regular taste like almost ice cream anyway. Look, look, you know, I got to get to the pricey thing in a sec because I got a bunch of stuff I got to get to. But here, but before I do that, let me just say this. Dunkin' Donuts, and there's this argument on the internet's a while ago and it keeps coming back up. Dunkin' Donut has ruined the world in terms of the way they spelled donut. It's just ruined. It's just ruined. And they've also ruined, you know, that they've trademarked. They can trademark Boston Cream because they spell it C-R-E-M-E. C-R-E-M-E. What the heck is C-R-E-M-E? Boston Cream. It's a Boston... Do nut. It's a they sell do nuts. They do not sell donuts. And I happen to like Dunkin' Donuts, by the way. The flavor of Dunkin' Donuts. I happen to enjoy them because I grew up eating them. I'm just very mad at what they've done to our language. Yeah. Oh, okay, one more thing. There's a cookie with sumac in it. Oh, that's good. I like Sumac. There are, uh, uh, quote unquote, slim
+
+[16:28] gems and the cookie and red and hot. Well, whenever I think of Slim James, I have to, I have to, if I was wearing a hat, I would take it off from my man, Macho
+
+[16:36] man, Randy Savage, the face. You got to pour one out. Yeah, I've got to pull it, snap it. snap into it. There's not really a solution or you're going to think about it. Yeah, I'll think I'll think about it. But remember, I would look I would look at the classic potato chip cookie recipe and see what they're
+
+[16:53] doing. But I looked at the classic potato chip cookies that were the winners in this contest they had at the Chester County Fair, which by the way, we should all
+
+[17:00] enter. Everyone at cooking issues who listens should go and we should just crush all the locals. Not that they can't cook. But she does, imagine if, imagine if all these like cooking nerds descended on Chester, the Chester Fair every year and was just like, boom. And just like dropped like a huge, like, splat of stuff on everyone's, like, baked good, it would be crazy. It would be awesome. It would be intense. You know what I mean? Also, here's something obsessed me about the Chester County Fair. Chester County Fair's vegetable, the vegetable judging. is all shape. It's all shape. Shape. So like, no flavor, no flavor, and not even like a size. So like we're growing like a huge pumpkin. Huge. It's already it already weighs more than the kids. It's huge. You know what I mean? Like both of the kids put together. But it's like, it's like shape. I mean, that's like, that's what's, that's what's so wrong with American fruit and veg today is the
+
+[17:56] shape based, because who cares? Shape and color. Who cares? That's not, I mean, color sometimes is indicator of quality. But rarely, you know what I mean? It's like, I mean, you know, more red, whatever. Is this is this social commentary on body image in the media? It could be if you want it to be, or it could just be, we need to change the way that people judge fruit and veg in county fairs. People, yeah, sure. you could change it. like, I don't really judge people. I just judge fruit and veg. Anyway, so so you're going to send more cookies and we'll talk about the pricing when they when they get here? Oh, I think she dropped the line. drop line? All right, cool. All right. I like how like Nick tries to make it into a deep inner, inner meaning kind of a thing. I know you're not a deep inner mean sort of person though. No, no, no. as we used to call it dim. No, none of that. All right. So since we're gonna run out of time, remind me at the, oh, next week we're gonna be, I'm gonna be at Harvard, I don't know if Nastasia is coming up or not, but I'm doing the talk with Harold McGee, so I won't be able
+
+[18:53] to be here. I'm giving a public lecture with Harold McGee on Monday. I don't, you know, I don't know how you get into it or whatever up in at Harvard. And the subject that I will be discussing is how, um, kind of modern ideas of cooking and kind of uh, observational and analytic cooking has led to a change in kitchen equipment design, both from my own perspective,
+
+[19:15] like Sears all, centrifuge, cube, stuff like that, and other people's perspective, like the baking steel, uh, and maybe what the future of that means as opposed to the past
+
+[19:24] in kitchen designs. That's one of the things I'm going or implement design. one of the things I don't know what Harold's going to be talking about. He may or may not talk about impossible foods and like food engineering from that side, which is kind of a whole new category of things that's going on. But anyway, that's what we'll be talking about. Um, So what else? Do you know Nick? You ever grow tomatoes? Nope. My tomatoes are growing so beautifully this year, and I've not eaten one because some evil, freaking, either climbing or small mammal has eaten. I see the teeth marks in the tomatoes. I have not had one freaking tomato. My tomato plants are like 6.5 feet
+
+[20:03] tall, all up on like things like all beautiful, like healthy as all get out, not one.
+
+[20:08] Thank goodness, whatever this thing is, doesn't like cucumbers or pumpkins, or I'd have nothing. Rippety-doo da. Zip. If you plant Perla leaves around, they'll stay away. Really? But tooth's weird. Like, because tomatoes are also a stinky leaf. You'd think that they would. Can you, so you're a planter? You plant things? No my dad used to. Yeah? Can I, can I just put like a, like a, like a, some sort of evil, like, like fence of death? Can I just obliterate everything that lives, that walks near the tomatoes? Is there some sort of like something that does that? I mean, I bear this thing ill will. Ill will. You gotta make yourself a Tesla coil to protect your tomatoes. If I look, you know, remember Nathan Mirville was working on that like Star Wars defense system for mosquitoes? was going to wipe out malaria. I need that to protect my tomato plants. I don't think that ever happened anyway. All right. Uh, okay. By the way, my son Dax, lazy, lazy, lazy. I was cooking for all these people this weekend, cooking so much. You know what I mean? Uh, because, you know, last week I was on vacation. So like family was coming out. I was cooking cooking. I'm like, Dax, I need to, I need to cook. I need to cook. Can you roast a coffee? All he has to do is sit there and turn a crank for like 10 minutes roast coffee. The entire 10 minutes complaining about how much work it was. And why can't I go buy? a automatic coffee roasting machine? Lazy. I love them. Lazy. Anyway. He did help me build a hovercraft. We built a hovercraft together. I saw that video. That was fun. Hovercraft fun. Next step, propulsion. Anyway, leaf blower. I bought a really good leap blower. anyway, this has nothing to do with cooking. Let's get into cooking. Um, Shy wrote in a long time ago about plums. So here's the question. I've recently made a nice plum tart, but it had a somewhat bitter tart taste to it. It's a flavor I've noticed before to an extent, in uncooked nectarines and peaches. All the plums I've used were very ripe and not bitter at all. I've mixed them with some brown sugar, then baked them for quite a long time until the crust got crisp and brown. Anytime say, see, brown is bad in a big dish that you serve out, but like anything that's crisp and brown, people like. You know what I mean? Crisp and brown? Good. Golden brown. Golden brown. Golden brown. Right? It's inherently good. Anyway. Um, can you suggest a reason for this flavor to develop during baking and hopefully a method to prevent it, thanks, shy. Yes. Well, at 1st I thought I think you have multiple problems. First of all, what you're noticing is not just you. A quick internet search shows that this is a problem a lot of people have had with plum
+
+[22:48] tarts, and I think also sometimes with apricots and cooked plums in general. So the short answer is, uh, no one's written the answer, and like what people have said is pretty
+
+[23:00] much, like the stuff, the answers I have seen are pretty much wrong. I did do some research in the, um, and here are the 3 articles that I read, the physical pre-treatment
+
+[23:10] of Plums, Prunis Domestica, part two, the effect on quality characteristics of different prune
+
+[23:16] cultivars by Luciano Cinquanta. And I read bitterness and astringency of Flavin 3 All Monomers, Dimers, and Trimers by Hannah Peleg in 1999, along with a couple of other things. And here's what I think is going on. Very interesting, very interesting. There are, so, there's a lot of like polyphenols and like tans and stuff in in plums, both in the skins where you taste them more in terms of stringency and in the plum fruit itself.
+
+[23:42] Now, one thing I was thinking is, is that you ever notice, you guys have noticed this, when you eat a plum, if you chew on the skin for a long time, you get a lot more of that astringency versus if you just, and
+
+[23:53] like suck it down, and also like a lot of the acidity is in the plum skin area in a plum. And so like I've noticed a lot when I'm doing, um, plum juices, um, or infusions with plums, that if you let them sit a long time on the skin, the same way that you do with a grape, you're pulling a lot more of the astringency out, uh, and a lot more of the sourness.
+
+[24:13] So like a short, you know, a quick juicing where you don't let the plums. So typically when I want to extract a lot of those flavors, before I do any juicing or clarification, I'll just smash the plums, the plums in the skins, maybe
+
+[24:26] even, and then depending on how much you want, you can blend it. If you blend it, it really does get very astringent and bitter once you then spin it out or clarify whatever else you're going to do with it, right? So at 1st I thought that was the only thing that was going on. But then when I did some research, it turns out that this is a known issue. Uh, when you dry plums, um, the, the amount of the uh, catachins in, which is the same kind of polyphenols that you get in teas, they provide a lot of
+
+[24:54] the, like kind of those bitter, astringent notes and teas, they're like somewhat bitter, somewhat astringent, but they're um, polymerized to a certain extent.
+
+[25:01] This is what I've gathered. I could be totally wrong, but chemists will write in. They're polymerized to a certain extent in a native plum, but the more those polymers are built up, the more they taste astringent,
+
+[25:12] right? The more they're broken down into smaller molecules, the less astringent they are, the more bitter they are. So perhaps, and this is shown like the data in these articles show that during the drying of
+
+[25:24] plums, from plums to prunes, prunes are so delicious that they actually changed the name. you know what I mean? of the thing from plum to prune. You know, dried apples, which I love are still just dried apples. Right. People like a raisin, right? They deserve their own name. I personally think dried apricots deserve their own name. I personally think that the best dried apricot, to me, I would rather eat it than a fresh apricot. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. I think it deserves its own name. I don't know. Nick, you'll come up with it. I don't think people would buy a lot of the a lot of those. I like how you're pronouncing with the alternate pronunciation, though. Anyway. So my point being, uh, that as these things dry, the uh, level of their, um,
+
+[26:08] um, the polyphenols in them by dry weight, uh, as composed of of unpolymerized catechin, goes up by a good chunk. So you can have something that doesn't appear bitter that then appears more bitter.
+
+[26:21] Now, as to what's going on with tartness, getting more tart, I don't know, but the interesting thing is here that there is chemistry going on here that is beyond my kind of knowledge, but someone else can find out.
+
+[26:31] Now, as to how you fix it, I don't know. I would try to maybe do a test where you cook down
+
+[26:38] some that you've blanched and peeled. Can you blanch and peel a plum? Probably could. I mean, I would guess I would guess you could. I'm just saying that, though, because I've never tried it. I've never peeled a plum. on purpose. I mean, I've sat there with my teeth and peeled the skin areas off. I tell you what, I'm not. I tell you what I'm not doing. I'm not sitting there with a knife and trying to cut the skin off of a right plum. That's what's not going to happen. No, would you try to do that, Nick? Did I ever tell a story on here where we tried to make you peel fennel seeds? I, yo, you never made me. Yes. Remember, I pressure cooked the fennel seeds, and they had those little white insides in them, and I tried to convince you as a joke to peel a quart container of fennel seeds down to the little white things. That's some other stupid person, that's not me. I think that was you, man. pretty sure it wasn't me. don't know. One of the other stupid interns. Did we have another Nick Wong? Yes. All right. Anyway, so, like, I would try taking the skin off. And then the other thing I would try is maybe doing, um, like, uh, some sort
+
+[27:37] of, like, either I mean, this sounds kind of gross, but like an egg white soak or like a milk soak to see whether you can
+
+[27:43] complex, more do a more of a hard complexing with the caseine of some of these things to suck them out of the plum before you cook it. Uh, alternatively, you could use something else that, like some other charged uh, proteinaceous thing that might complex with um, the precursors to this bitterness and knock them out. That's my, and another thing you can do is you could try to actually dip this stuff in milk and see whether that
+
+[28:10] reduces the bitterness after the fact. you know, as a test to see what what's happening. Although my guess is, is that the more condensed, the more polymerized the, uh, these things are, the better they will complex with milk. But again, you're beyond my actual level of knowledge and you're into my realm of extreme speculation. Anyway, which is where I live most of my life. By the way, speaking of bitterness, do you know that, you know, bolites, you know, bolites, the mushrooms, like, you know, like porcinis, bolites, they're the ones that have the poor structure instead of the gills. Good news about bullies is that they taste good and that they're not poisonous. Like, there's very few, there's no bowl leaves that are going to kill you. You know what I mean? It's like if you go for guild mushrooms and you get the wrong guild mushroom, like you're toast. You know what I mean? Like unless you get a liver transplant, you're host. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, like destroying angel, you know, amanitas, things like this. Bull eats, like some of them are like toxic-ish, but like they're not going to kill you. Anyway, but there's there's one that looks fairly similar to an actual porcino. It's called a bitter bully, bitter bully. Bitter bully. You are a bitter bully, Nick. Nick was sick and say I was a bitter bully. Turns out these up in Connecticut. But here's the interesting thing that I'm going to maybe cook some up and bring it. Whatever is bitter in a bitter bully is only bitter to people who have the genetic ability to taste that particular bitter compound and like prop, you know, the bitter tasting strips that people test to see if you're a super taster, not everyone can taste it.
+
+[29:40] So if you don't have the genes to taste it, apparently it's delicious
+
+[29:43] mushroom, as delicious as a porcini. But then if you have that gene, it's as disgusting as chewing on prop
+
+[29:49] strips, like hardcore bitter. So I could try to find some and then bring them back and we'll have a bitter bowly cookoff, and then we'll sit there and like, like, hopefully I can't taste it just so that I can serve it to other people. So I can sit there and be pounding it. And then someone else eats. It's like, ah, ah, right? What do you think? Are you super tasty? either of you ever done prop? I'm pretty sure I'm not a super taster. I think I did it once. I'm not. I'm definitely not. And I don't feel and I don't feel bad about it, to quote Macy Gray. Hey, David, you ever done that prop strip? You know what I'm talking about, though? Never heard of it. So what the classic thing you do. So here's the thing. If you want to pretend to be a super taster, and really, I don't see why you would, because a lot of, like, it's a really crappy, like, because it makes it seem like it's an awesome thing to
+
+[30:31] be, super taster. Me, it may or may not be, but it's like, whatever. might just ruin your life. I don't know. Well, apparently, you know, super tasters are the ones that go for the white zen. just saying. Uh, the same. Make with that or you want, but, you know, there you have it. Ooh, the white fan. hater of the white Zen. By the way, people out there and maybe get some in the chat room, why has no one made a delicious,
+
+[30:55] well crafted white zen? I mean, I'm sure they had. Let me take that back. Why have I never tasted a delicious, well crafted white Zen? Because we all grew up like, well, grew up. You know, we all grew up in drinking life, especially like, you know, at my age, like a lot of people were pounding that
+
+[31:12] sweet white rock gut white zen. You know what I mean? And so like it took a long time for even real good Zinfandel to kind of overcome that hump of like the white Zin, the, like the kind of, uh, you know, bad connotations of the whites in. But then why hasn't there been more of like a white
+
+[31:28] Zin comeback? Like good whites in. Like, what can it not be made? I'm sure someone makes a delicious one. I haven't had it. I had a, you know, whatever. I like, whatever. It's not the, it's neither here or there. You want to take another color? Sure, call her. You on the air. Hello? Hello? Hey, hey. Um, I'm a baker, and I make a pair of pumpkin bread every year. Um, had a question about that. Sure. How do you cure the pumpkin? All right, so it's just a roasted, roasted squash, whatever, whatever you can find, kabocha, blue Hubbard. Um, and then most of the hydration for the bread, it's a rye bread. Most the hydration comes from carrot juice. Um, so, I basically, I, the bread's delicious. I just wanted to reduce some of the labor of it, especially since I don't have an outlet for the runoff from the juicing process.
+
+[32:21] and uh, you mean the carrot? looks like carrots are mostly are pretty high pectin. So I was wondering if anyone had experienced just kind of breaking down carrots into a mush with pectin
+
+[32:35] enzymes. Uh, maybe for you've done something like that for a cocktail or uh, wanted to know how that would work out. I have, but it's been many, many years. I mean, carrot's one of those things that like, you know, auto clarifies to a very high extent as opposed to like a lot of other juices on separation. Like, so it's one of those things that I haven't focused a lot on
+
+[32:59] in, like, trying to clarify it and it's been, I used to do, uh, like back in the
+
+[33:04] day, We run for that one, Nick. We did apples and carrots. We did a bunch of cocktails like that, um, gin, apple, carrot, but it's been a long, long time. Uh, look, the original uh, purpose of a lot of
+
+[33:16] these um, pectinase things. There was one that I used to use on apples called Pectinex Smash XXL, which was what we started using before we were using SPL back in the day.
+
+[33:25] And its stated goal is to increase the yield of juice out
+
+[33:30] of, um, increase the yield of juice out of, uh, apples. And I'm sure it would also work on carrots. Now, I would use SPL because my guess is that there's probably beyond pectin that there's a good bit of like
+
+[33:44] hemicellulose and stuff in a carrot. So I would, um, Carrots are, like one of the reasons carrots are hardest, because aren't they high in calcium? Anyway, uh, like, uh, doesn't that reinforce the pectin structure? I haven't researched carrot in a 1000000 years. But I remember how the modern cuisine guys used to say that the internal, like the very tap root inside structure of the carrot is higher in calcium, that like lighter core, and that they did a differential tasting where they popped the core out and did a, like a triangle test
+
+[34:13] of like the outside of the carrot versus the inside. And I think they were saying that they thought it was a higher calcium level that was increasing to a bitterness perception in the inside of the tap root, but I don't know if that's actually what was going
+
+[34:25] on or if it's just the majority of the sugar storage is in the outside.
+
+[34:29] I don't know how far they went into it. Anyway, been many years. But so my guess is that, yes, pre-treatment with Pectinex, ultra SPL will increase your yield. There's got to be some good use for that dry, nasty pulp. It's got to be. Like some sort of some sort of crappy health cookie. Some sort of crappy health cookie. Like, there's got to be some use. That's like, do you know how like when you make tofu, you have all the okara left over, like the things, and you're like, what am I going to do with this? And so you just add a little bit to like every muffin and pancake you make for the
+
+[35:05] next like, you know, month to try to get rid of it until it starts going stale and stanky in
+
+[35:10] your in your in your fridge. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah, is carrot pulp the same way? Can you just kind of toss dry, worthless carrot pulp into as roughage for people who want like a cookie that helps them like
+
+[35:22] go, go, go, you know, to the bathroom or no? Yeah, I mean, we found that the runoff from the juicing just isn't really flavorful to use for too much. Yeah, no, it's just a fiber. It's just fiber. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what I, so I guess what I was wondering is, is, uh, if,
+
+[35:41] so say I'm using about, I think, uh, if I remember right, it's about like 50%
+
+[35:46] carriage juice, 50% water in the, in the, uh, the, the formula.
+
+[35:52] If I were to, to just take carrots and submerge them one to one by weight in water plus
+
+[36:00] tech and X and kind of let it fit and then would that, uh, break down at all or? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What you would have to do is you'd have to juice it. Take the pulp. Treat the pulp with pectinx and then try to do another juice extraction on that. Okay. Peginex will not penetrate at all. In fact, when we used to use the Pectonex Ultra SPL to do things like, you know, one of the old tricks is to get all of the white off of, like doing supremes of,
+
+[36:32] like, Pomolos and something, things are very hard to do supremes of, and, you know, we would peel it 1st because it wouldn't penetrate through the peel, then we would break the
+
+[36:42] into, like, halves and quarters, then soak it, then break it apart after it, it started
+
+[36:48] dissolving, and then soak it again to get all the stuff off. This stuff just will not penetrate. Uh, it won't, like, even under vacuum conditions. In a carrot specifically, vacuum infusions into carrots tend not to go that deep. unless you're doing super multiple pulses. And so I highly doubt that you're going to get that much of an increase in yield, unless you could, if you, if you, if you put all of the carrots, if you didn't want to juice it twice, if you put all the carrots
+
+[37:17] through, like, uh, like, um, a robo coup with a disk in it and, like, chip them into carrot chips and then soak them in Pectinex and then pull them out and throw them, throw them through your champion or whatever you're using, uh, that might increase your yield, but I would run some tests
+
+[37:34] and make sure that it's worth the time, uh, and effort. Otherwise, I would just try to do a reduce of the stuff and see whether the stuff that comes out later is any good. Hey, here's a question. It's just off the top of my head. Any of you guys ever make rice bran pickles? You know what I'm talking about? Rice bran pickles? I wonder, because when you make rice bran pickles, you know, you have to, like, incubate the rice bran and all
+
+[37:54] this and it has to have a certain moisture content, you're bearing your vegetables in, you have to
+
+[37:57] replenish blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? I wonder whether you could cut a rice bran mixture with like really dry pressed carrot stuff. I wonder whether you could like add it, whether it would be bad, or would it add like a good thing to like an already going rice bran pickle? What do you think? I don't know, but it's just fiber, though. That's right. Well, what's rice brand? Fiber plus some fat and some other stuff. What's carrot, what's carrot waste? A little bit of sugar, not no fat. fiber. But it's not saying, like, go 100%. I'm saying like go partial. Do you think it would rot or do you think it's low enough moisture content and it'd be okay? I don't know. don't know. I mean, with all with all the sugar, it might get yeasty, though. That'd be the one concern. Right, but that's when when you taste, like, when you do a good job. Like if you like double, double juice or whatever, the pulp that comes out of a champion with the carrot stuff is pretty, it's fairly neutralized compared to a real
+
+[38:51] carrot. You know what I mean? Like, I wonder how much actual sugar is left in there. I get what you're saying. Like, you wouldn't want a lot of yeast, you wouldn't want yeast stuff going. But it wouldn't be interesting. Anyway, I don't know. Someone's surest tried it. don't know. Well, I'll try that out and I'll let you guys know. Yeah, cool. Let us know what happens. Let us know whether you increase your yield. All right, thanks very much. Cool, thank you. All right. So, Matt, you and Olive, you guys Olive fans? You like olives? you have thoughts on olives? No? No thoughts on olives? You guys are in the, you guys, you guys are worse than Nastasia. Matt Hall wrote in. That's just hurtful. Yeah. I'm interested in getting your opinion on the selection of olives for cocktails. I have been using, I can't pronounce words that I read. Castle Vitrano Alas, for Dirty Martinis, 2 parts, dry gin, one part, uh,
+
+[39:39] dry vermouth, uh, and a bar spoon of brine. It seems good, but am I missing a better option? What about other cocktails? Thanks, Matt Hall. So we use, uh, we use, um, frankly, we use olives that fit into the
+
+[39:52] bottles because what we do is we throw, we push olives into our martini bottles. What do we use? Like pisholines or something like that? I don't know The little ones, little green guys. Yeah, I don't know. Um, so that's what we use, but I, you know, I would just do it based on uh, taste. Tony Cunigaro in, um, in 69 Colbrook Row and Zedder Townhouse, et cetera, et cetera, in um, London, he uses exclusively
+
+[40:16] Nochalara Olives, and he, um, of course, he's Sicilian. But then, you know, what he does is that the least, the least, or should say, the, the, he had
+
+[40:28] the lowest yield idea on earth, he takes nochalara olives, drains the brine from them, puts them in a centrifuge, spins them, and lets the, the increased weight of the centrifuge on whole
+
+[40:42] olives, expel some brine, and then that's what he uses for his dirty martinis.
+
+[40:48] And then the rest he sends back to the kitchen to make top a knot. I was like, Tony, how much top a knot do you sell? Like, who are you, who are you unloading all this tapenade on? That you can like, you know, I'm talking like, you know, he'll get, you know, those, the big, the big 10 cans of nochalaras, and he'll get out of that, like, I don't know, like, like a cup, like, less than a pint of, like, of,
+
+[41:11] uh, of brine. And that's, think of how much Tapenada number 10 can has in it. Worth of olives. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, so I would just choose olives that you like. I would think most, I mean, what do most people do? I done Kalamata, but it's very specific and it's colored, so it's kind of like people generally want green olives, right? Yeah. I don't know. I would just say experiment. If you have access to a centrifuge, you can make really, really, really good olive brine just by blending it and spinning
+
+[41:39] it, and you get really, really good paste, really, really good brine and a little bit of oil that olive connoisseurs hate because it's fusty.
+
+[41:47] It has that, it has that oxidized kind of cured taste to it, which olive people hate. Um, okay. Richard wrote in about seasoning sticks. There's a Kickstarter. It's called Seasoning Sticks. And he said, well, watching the video, I got a few laughs and a couple of face bombs over their science behind the product, probably the worst thing, uh, worst thing being that they feel that all the water
+
+[42:10] has gone from the inside of the meat at 110 degrees. There's notice there's some science problems. There's some science problems. What this is, Nick, Esther, you tell me, is that these people make sticks out of some sort of seasoning, and then they shove these sticks
+
+[42:24] into like a meat product, and then they cook it to try and season it from the inside out. Now, I'm sure that Richard is expecting that I'm going to go completely like ape on this. And I would if I had more time. You know what I mean? But I'm going to say something here. And this goes back to, like, Greg, Greg Blonder. supposed to be talking about Greg Blonder and vacuum pressure marination, but I haven't had time to run a lot of the experiments
+
+[42:51] yet. whatever. We'll get to it next week. In fact, I would love to meet him at the Harvard next week. He believes that vacuum marination and pressure marination don't work, but I think that he is not
+
+[43:02] necessarily correct based on the experiments he's run. Like, for instance, have you guys noticed? Do you guys, you guys vacuum bag for with flavor, right? Right. So and again, remember, and I'll get back to the seasoning sticks. But like, remember, in general, like, it's clear that under vacuum salt penetration is higher, right? And nitrate penetration is higher. I know this because you can run the test. You can infuse a pork belly with pink salt and then not do it. I mean, not vacuum it and vacuum it. He's doing it under a lower, under a less high vacuum than we would be doing it. But and then when you cook it the next day, the pink is deeper in the pork belly that you did under
+
+[43:42] vacuum. He's also not getting a lot of the effects. He's doing whole muscle meat, so he's not getting effective, like penetration along bone lines and crevices in muscles. Also, he's not doing it to the point where, you know how when you do a bad vacuum
+
+[43:56] job, and like you can see the meat inflate like a marshmallow, like it puffs up. Clearly you're separating the fibers and by doing that, you're allowing the meat to penetrate, but I think it's bad practice. Although it might not actually be bad practice on meat that you are trying to quote untenderize. So we sit there and we beat chickens and beef with mallets to tenderize
+
+[44:16] them. And yet I'm worried about inflating them with a vacuum, right? So who's the idiot? It's me. But, you know, obviously fish is destroyed by that technique. So, like, you know, you don't want to deal with fish, but going back to my point, what do you guys think? You
+
+[44:28] two, here in the studio with me, think. And Dave, if you do this as well, is the thing that you cook most often that absorbs marinade the fastest in a
+
+[44:37] vacuum? I'll give you 5 seconds to think. Five, four, three, two, one. Shrimp. Shrimp, and crustaceans because they have open circulatory systems. So I think, you know, you're dealing with something like, uh, uh, a, everybody knows that when you vacuum bag shrimp, You don't do it to cook it because that's gross, right? You do it because shrimp absorbs flavor like a mofo in a
+
+[45:04] bag as opposed to something like a chicken, right? Have you noticed that? Like shrimp picks up stuff in a bag. And I think it's because it's just a big straw. It's a big open circulatory system. And she goes right through. Yeah, and that's my theory. I want to run some test though with larger molecules. So he uses green food coloring as a stand in for larger molecules because most of the flavor molecules that we have are very large compared to something like salt.
+
+[45:29] And so like the mistake people make in marinades is they think that these larger molecules are actually going to make their way into the
+
+[45:37] meat and they're simply not under most, unless you beat them with mallets, whether it being marinated, in which
+
+[45:42] case, but anyway, we'll get into that later. As for the sticks. So marinades tend not to work, but anyone that's, have you ever roasted a chicken? I know you have at Freaking Cafe Ballout. know you've roasted a chicken in your life, right? Nick, you roasted a chicken. If you stuff crap into a chicken's cavity, Is there anyone on earth who doesn't think that the flavors from the herbs and the citrus and the onions and the aliens that you shove into the cavity of
+
+[46:04] the chicken when you roast it, don't permeate the freaking meat? Because they're stupid. They have no smell or taste. You know what I mean? It's like, it's obvious that those flavors during cooking permeate, right? Yeah. And so, like, that's a that's a temperature effect happens, well, it's cooking. And so if that happens by shoving a chicken, by
+
+[46:25] shoving like, you know, chopped up lemon, coriander, parsley, onions, and rosemary into a chicken cavity, pepper, salt,
+
+[46:35] duh, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, maybe these sticks, as horrifying as they are to have, what horrifies me about the idea of a stick of spice through something is that you have this like
+
+[46:47] hyperconcentrated like spice hit right where the stick was. point of contact. Right. So, you know, we always used to call that spice burn, right? So like you'd have like someone, some idiot was like spicing a bag, let's say, for low temperature cooking. And they just throw the freaking spice into the bag and then they walk away and then you get that super concentration. A lot of spices go hard bitter when they're cooked for a long time in high concentrations in one thing. And so you get spice burns or some idiot would throw, like, rosemary right
+
+[47:16] against, like, like a fragile thing in a bag, hard vac it down without any liquids. And then you get that like imprint, that like bitter over rosemary imprint of green all over the
+
+[47:28] meat right where it hit. First of all, those jerks would make an actual literal cooked imprint of a rosemary stick into the food, which is enough that you
+
+[47:36] should like, you should go to a corner of the room and cry. But, uh, beyond that, uh, it creates spice burn. So that would be my only thing, right? What do you think? Is a rosemary stick, the original seasoning stick? Rosemary stick is the original seasoning stick. Because, you know, you shove that thing into, you know, shove that. That's what Chez was born on a
+
+[47:59] rosemary skewer, I think. Look, I'm not sure. You're turning it into something gross, but I'm not sure exactly how that went. did that. I didn't do that. All right, so listen, we're running out of time here. Next week we'll get 2 weeks from now. We'll get to Mark Bledsoe's question from we have a we have a month. He has an event a month away, but I'll get into it next week, hopefully with time for you to work on it. Devin Krebs had a question about how did you get into this whole line of business, which is kind of a longer discussion. We'll get to it. We'll eat some cookies. Uh, and uh, that's it. Oh, I will say this, one thing on the way out. Do you know in New York City and Washington and Philadelphia, like all the buildings are, this is not a cooking thing. They're like brownstone. you familiar with brownstones? So all that brownstone came from a quarry in Connecticut called
+
+[48:47] brownstone and they, it flooded in 1936. It's now a water park, dude. It's sick It's sick, man. You gotta go, gotta go to Brownstone water park. And last thing, this is cooking related. So everybody who listens to me knows that I'm very pro tandor, right? You know this? anybody anti-Tandor? Well, no, but I'm very pro. Trump. Trump. Trump hates tandors. Yes. But I'm very, very pro tandor, uh, but what it's done, and this is, it's totally changed my entire outlook on cook cooking in
+
+[49:21] general, because, yeah, because what, if you cook in a tandor, other than bread, which is one and done, right, on the side pops off, everything in a tandor is, uh, most everything
+
+[49:33] is is multi-cook, right? In out, in out, in out. And I've said before, like David Cinch, David Cinchino, from Monresa, when he decided that he wasn't going to do low temperature anymore because it wasn't
+
+[49:44] enough, it wasn't enough work for him to do just low temperature work. So he would take his like old school. I think I forget whether he's Bonet or Multaney, one of those things, right? He would he would just take his meats in and out of the old traditional oven to try to get that high average, a
+
+[49:59] high instantaneous heat, low average heat, which is why rotisserie is so good. And Tandor is the same way. Super high instantaneous in out, in out, in out. Oil-based in between so that it starts cooking as soon as it gets into the fire,
+
+[50:10] right? And so you get these like, that's how you get the really nice crust and the really, and so, but I've just been cooking everything that way. So like on my grills now and like, you know, Meathead, when he was here, would hate this, but like everything I do is like, is done tandor style now because I don't have to think ahead. You know what I mean? It's just like, make it thin enough so that it's gonna work. And then just off on, off, on, off, on, off, on. So I do, I've been doing the vertical grilling, but now I've been doing it now horizontal grilling. I told you, I bought one of those big cowboy grills at the Home Depot for $150 that has, you know, basically the grilling area of a dining room table. And
+
+[50:44] like, I have so much wood that like, I don't have to like, I don't have to worry about like
+
+[50:49] sustainability. It's like I live in the 1800s and like, I'm just destroying the earth, you know, one person at a time. You know, it's like, but again, like the wood would otherwise go to waste. It would rot into the ground. No one's coming to buy it or use it or build houses out of it. So I'd build a, I do one, uh, I do one chimney of charcoal, and then I layered, like logs over it. Literally, if you go back and you read camp cookbooks from like the late 1800s, early 1900s. There was a huge woodcraft movement that went along, not woodcraft, meaning like woodwork, woodcraft, meaning like how to survive in the woods, movement that happened in the
+
+[51:22] US as part of the kind of return to nature, naturalism movement, right? It happened right around the time when all of our forests were already kind of destroyed. So people were trying to like hook it up. But the culture at the time was still, you know, you get a big hunting party, you go out into the woods, you chop down a bunch of
+
+[51:37] full-size freaking trees, and you build a camp, you know, including like, you know,
+
+[51:42] like big fireplaces, and they were burning huge amounts of wood. And so like I can kind of act that way now, at least for a little while. So I'm building these giant wood fires, and man, having a giant, like, dining room sized, like, super hot flame that you can just off
+
+[51:57] on, off on. I can crank. And I really love cooking that way. I just love it. And I did shrimp on it the other day, and chicken, because it's like trip, shrimp's a master of the off on, off on. Shrimp is like, boom, boom, boom, boom, done. You know what I mean? Off, on, off, on, off on. Do you hate people that cook their shrimp at too low a heat and then the whole thing is ruined and the outside still doesn't have any nice crust on it? I hate that. I hate. One last question because I know we need to leave. Are you guys bigger fans of getting a shrimp and cooking it nicely so that you can eat the shell and get all the
+
+[52:28] flavor, or do you like people to cook it with the shell on, and then the idiots peel off the shell and lose all the flavor, or do you like to shell the sucker and then put the flavor on it, but then also not shield the meat as much from the high heat? I like the worst option on that. Which is you cook it with the shell on and the idiot's peeling. Yeah. I would rather just eat the shell. I like eating the shell. I'm very pro in the show. I'm more, I'm just lazy. Well, do you does that mean you also like the double stir fry technique? The 2nd one is the one that makes the shell crispy enough to eat? Like salt and pepper shrimp, where you hit it once, then you pull it, and then you hit it again, and then, yeah. And that actually, to be honest in this, they're going to have to kick me off here, but they, they, that's the one advantage to kind of the low quality, really thin shelled, like, farm raised,
+
+[53:14] like, BS shrimp that we get is that if you cook it like that, those shells are super, super easy just to
+
+[53:20] eat. You know what I mean? I don't mind it. I don't mind it. Americans need to get over it, eat the shell anyway. Just see the shell. good calcium. Yeah, is that true? Is there calcium in it? It's chitin. I know it's chitinous. So it's good for like whatever chitin's good for. Maybe there's calcium in it. I'm sure there is, because I know lobster shells make that terrible flavor if you cook. you ever make a lobster broth. You ever accidentally cook the shell too long? Nasty, nasty. Lobster shell only want to be in the broth for a certain amount of time. And if you overcook it, it gets that shell taste. And I think that shell taste is calcium, but I don't know because I never researched it. All I know is, is that if I see someone boiling their lobster shell and then I come back
+
+[54:04] in in like an hour and they're still boiling that lobster shell. I'm like, 0 my god. Why? You know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about. Anyway, cooking issues.
+
+[54:21] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. This is Mike Edison, host of Art Census of Seizure. You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, please visit HeritageRadionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold. Cooking, you choose coming to you live on Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12, to roughly 1245 or one o'clock or so. On the Heritage Radio Network, for Robert's
+
+[0:42] Pizzeria in... Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, Witness Dasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing today, Stas? I'm good. are you? Fine. Got Dave in the booth. Also fine. Good. Calling your questions to 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. It's been a while since we've all been in the studio together, right? Yeah. Um, That's nice. Last week I was at the Harvard, given the talk, and then the week
+
+[1:10] before you were at the sweet sweet Naples. Yeah, yeah. All right. So let's get right into it. We have a bunch of stuff to catch up with today. Oh, you done any interesting cooking? No. You're like rippety freaking doodod. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. See, did I cook anything for the Harvard lecture? No, not really, right? I don't know. Did I even serve anything at the Harvard? You know what I did do at the Harvard lecture? I showed off the prototype of the centrifuge. talked about the relative difficulties of making a product. Anyway, all right, let's get to today's questions because we have a lot. Nastasia is Nastasia, by the way, is getting ready. Judy from Malden sent us some cookies to taste today. So she's opening them now and reading the description so that we can have a comparative tasting later. Ooh. So Dave, what's that what's that signify there? I was you opening the box? Oh, nice. I like that ID in there or something? First of all, I don't think we actually talked about this. Dave, did I talk about salt last week at all? You weren't here last week. The week before that? I can't remember that. All right, here's the thing. This is an interesting fact that came to my head, that when I was kids and when, you know, people my age were kids, everybody in their house cooked with the cylindrical boxes of iodized salt, like we're all familiar with that cylindrical box of iodized salt,
+
+[2:39] right? So as soon as I started, you know, cooking, I've always 100% exclusively used kosher salt, diamond kosher salt, in fact. And so like in my house, and by the way, my kids, you know, rarely do they eat out at restaurants. It's mainly stuff that we cook at home, and 100% of it is made with kosher salt. Kosher salt contains no iodine. There's no iodine. So I'm wondering if, you know, I mean, my kids,
+
+[3:11] luckily, they eat enough seafood, you know, that not as much as the triple 6 mafia with the shrimp and the iodine poisoning. That's like my favorite, my favorite, uh, like rhyme ever of
+
+[3:23] theirs, and I, I eat so many shrimp. I get iodine poisoning. I love that line. That's from sipping on some syrup. But the, anyway,
+
+[3:33] like, uh, point me, yeah. The intro to that song is kind of amazing. Don't you think so, Dave? I don't know. We're probably not allowed to play it because we didn't buy any rights to anything, but We don't have that kind of money. Yeah, rhyming shrimp with I believe shrimp is rhymed with with pimp, right? There's only, like, we have to look up, look up the exact lyrics. That's not the important part. The important part is that we, um, I wonder whether we are raising a generation of people with not enough iodine. Probably not. We're over vitamin and everything that we that we consume, right? I mean, as Americans, we're pretty much over vitamins, but it's just something to consider. The fact that we have reduced the overall iodine in
+
+[4:14] our diet to the extent that we cook with kosher salt, which for me is 100%. Or mald and salt, which also has, you know, not, I don't think it has a lot of iodine in salt. I mean, it is sea salt. So it has some iodine, but I use relatively little malden salt compared to kosher salt. Okay, A.T. Dustin wrote in showing a New York Times article that came out yesterday. Do you read The Times, Nastasia? No. No. There's an article talking about how in the 60s, the sugar industry paid money to scientists to say that articles that were pointing to a review article that said that the people who were saying that sugar increases your risk of cardiovascular disease were
+
+[4:56] wrong and that they were basically being paid by the sugar industry. And so everyone is, you know, up in arms that the sugar industry would do this thing. Here's the thing. And, you know, they had like Mary Nessel was quoted in it. guy named Stanton Glance, who was big known for was on the paper, actually, because it just got released in, I think, in Gemma. And it, you know, was very critical. He was a big tobacco anti-tobacco guy. Here's, you know, here's my take on it. What do you think happens? Like, do you, like, what does what does what do we all think happens here in America or anywhere?
+
+[5:32] A corporation makes a product. Sugar. What do they want? You to buy it? What do they not want? You to think that it is unhealthy? So clearly, they're going to do what they can at any point to try to convince people
+
+[5:51] that that their product is good, right? And that just stands the reason. And so, I think, you know, the other thing is, it's painting it out to look, and it is actually really sinister, if you read it. They weren't paid that much money. It was like $50,000 in today money to 2 scientists, to publish a review article. By and large, every, here's what I think. Like, Yeah, like their recommendations were the, like, those
+
+[6:18] scientists recommendations, uh, regarding, um, fat, because they were, they were very much, uh, in kind of the, uh, Ansel Keys, fat is the bad
+
+[6:26] thing and not sugar, uh, thing. They probably believed what they were saying. Yeah, they took money. Yes, they gave drafts of their paper back to the sugar industry. Yes, they did not disclose it. No one disclosed stuff like that at the time. It was kind of the Wild West. Should it have been disclosed? Yes, is it now? Should be often is. But the fact is, is that there is a false belief among us that scientists are somehow dispassionate, that science, nutritional
+
+[6:55] science, especially, that it is somehow non-biased, or should be non-biased. Every paper that I have read on nutrition is intensely
+
+[7:05] biased one way or the other. So I'm sure that these sugar scientists didn't go to like, you know, Billy and Joe neutral to write a review article saying that sugar, you know, did not contribute to cardiovascular disease, whereas fat did, I'm sure they didn't choose neutral
+
+[7:25] people. They probably chose people who already believe them anyway. And this is how stuff works now. Scientists have particular views. They're searched out by industry, because they have particular views, and then money does or doesn't change hands, but even if money doesn't change hands, the scientists still are biased towards their
+
+[7:41] opinion. And then if a research, if a corporation wants to use their research, they will anyway, to publicize it. So I think the whole thing is wretched. I think, you know, this just points out that I think most nutritional science, on either side, if there are 2 sides or 5 sides, all 5 sides, is all wretched and horrible, because it all starts with fundamentally,
+
+[8:02] typically the stuff that I've read, skewed data, interpreted through the lens of people that have a preconceived notion of what they think the answer
+
+[8:08] is. And I think, you know, that's one of the big differences between, um, you know, people who do long-term predictive studies or like come up with scientific theories that can be easily
+
+[8:19] tested and confirmed and these kind of like large scale, uh, multifactorial uh, epidemiological studies. anyway, that's my thoughts. I'm sure some people are going to think I'm a jerk for Sam, but that's just the truth. Bobby, White wrote in. So Bobby wrote in about white zin. Remember we were talking about white Zen when we were talking about that stuff. And he said, many Sonoma wineries now make a dry rosé that is labeled as rosé without a great breakdown, but it's often just
+
+[8:46] a Zinfandel or an Italian field blend made predominantly out of Zinfandel. There are plenty that tastes like a serious wine. My wife made 4 barrels of dry infidel rosé at work in 2013 and pulled off a barrel for our wedding, which was
+
+[8:59] excellent, though it might be a bit old at this point. I can open a bottle and give it a try and send it in if you're interested, but it should not be hard to find a decent example from Sonoma out where you live. Bobby. Hey, sure, try it. I would love to take someone's wedding wine. That'd be sweet. Tasted if it's still, I mean, not sweet, dry, but you know what I'm saying. Okay. Um, let me see. So are we ready to get to the cookie tasting or do you want to do that? take some questions, go to the break and come back. You're the hammer. What do you want to do? All right, so let's do a couple more questions and then you decide what you want to do. David needs to get in on this too. there's too many. This has like too many. We're all going down to go. So now we're going back to Les Claypool. Nastasia Lopez. First and only time has ever quoted Primus on the air. In fact, it's the 1st time I've ever heard her. because you said that exact. Yeah, but still, like, you hate whenever I quote lyrics, you hate it. all those cookies for for the troops. So that's stuck in my head. Remember that? Too many cookies. Oh, good. Are getting cracked in the dark. Anyway, like, yeah, so like unbelievable for Nastasia too. Now I have the whole thing in my head. Too many cooka cooka cookies. So many cookies. All right, so we're gonna taste them. I don't think people, people listen to pride. David, do people listen to privacy anymore? Yeah, like on the festival scene, I think. Oh my god. What's the festival scene? Is that like, you know, like Bonnaroo, all that nonsense? I thought you meant like, they're like a big festival van. When someone says festival, I think Renaissance festival. That's where I had my 14th birthday party. At a Renaissance festival? Yeah, nerd alert. Nerd alert. Now, that's what you need the siren, sirens floor. Me, me, me, mer. Like, like, those Renaissance festivals are some weird business. Did you get any dates at the Renaissance Festival? You mean like the kind that you eat? Yeah. Bad dates. Bad dates. Another one of our favorite quotes. Yeah, like our fourth reference to that. Not today, just in life. Only because you don't live at my house where it like comes up constantly. Like, whenever my cousins are over, it's nothing but Indiana Jones references, like, 100% of the time, like mixed up, like, all the movies mixed up differently, you know, and sometimes mixed up with other stupid things that we would we
+
+[11:20] do. Okay, from Alan Snow. Hope Italy was good and the centrifuge is coming along. Last year, I sent a question about how to get the pectin levels down before the fermentation of Apple to make
+
+[11:31] Applejack. Dave mentioned that he was going to answer the question next week a couple of times, but was too busy. If there's any chance, an answer of an answer because Apple's are almost here again. I'd be very grateful. Last year, I tried freezing to set a men out, the pectin, uh, uh, for set a men out, the pectin, um, but, uh, still had uh, 2 high of methanol levels, uh, when it was done and the apple
+
+[11:52] jack was a headache. In the end, I wrote about the results and cut the heads off long. The other question I has, is it worth rotavapping a black trouble, truffle? I've been given one that seems pretty dried out and wondered if truffle vodka might be a way of getting the max flavor out of it. and in a way of storing it for use in dishes. And look, it should work. Like rotavapping the truffle should work. You know, I spoke to the truffle guys in Oregon who deal mainly the Oregon truffles, and they don't do direct seep stuff. They literally just put truffles in jars with things, but I think that's because they want to use the truffle again later. I don't think since we eat truffles, I don't think there's going to be anything that you're going to extract out that's bad
+
+[12:29] uh, into the uh, into the vodka, and then I think, you know, you'll get most of those aromatic notes back out when you do
+
+[12:36] uh, the rotavap. So, the answer is, I think you'll get a lot. I mean, I don't know what in a truffle. I mean, look, most of what's interesting about a truffle is the rum anyway, let's be honest, right? I mean, that's what that's what most what's interesting about it. So it should work. And I've read some papers online, not specifically the truffles, but on the
+
+[12:53] cold, on the low temperature vacuum distillation of other mushroom aromas, and it seems to work well. All right? As for pectin, the call I remember getting in about pectin was trying to keep pectin during the process of keeping, which is
+
+[13:09] process making cider where you actually induce a pectin gel to form after the juicing
+
+[13:14] procedure to trap nutrients. And the reason you want to trap nutrients is so that the yeast die before they have a chance to ferment out all the sugar. So it so that the cider remains sweet without having to add sugar back to it. And for that, you obviously want to reinforce the pecting cause. So what they typically do is a lot of pectin methylestrase enzyme, which strengthens
+
+[13:36] the pectin, let it sit for a while, and then they will, um, they will hit it with calcium chloride, uh, you know, if you're adding stuff, if you're wanting
+
+[13:44] these people to add stuff, and then that'll cause that gel to really, um, firm
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+[13:48] up. The gel will trap what it's going to trap. It'll float to the top, skimmed off, ferment. But your question is quite different. It seems to me, what you want to do is just get rid of the pectin. And for that, I would just use Pectinex ultra SPL. I don't know, like, uh, have you tried that? and it's failed. Ultra SPL will wipe out the pectin, lick it T split. Like, and you can add it at the end of fermentation, which is, uh, you know, what I typically, I've done it both ways. I've added a pectin, some people had a pectin, a
+
+[14:19] pectinex during the smashing procedure before crushing so that you increase the yield of juice out of the press. In fact, that's what there's a, there's one called spectnex smash. It's designed literally for that to increase the yield off of apples. Alternatively, I mean, you know, and if you're doing a press that way, you can add the enzyme early, right? I wanted, my problem was I was kind of, it was clarifying quickly. It was clarifying beforehand. So I actually let it ferment on with the suspended sediment and then knocked it out at the end. And for that, Pectinex ultra SPL is very good because it works in alcoholic environment. So you can add like a couple of milliliters per liter at the end of your fermentation time. It should settle out, uh, that, you know, as long as you, as long as it's not actively carbonated, which is going to keep popping the stuff off the top, once the carbonation level and the CO2 has died down and fermentation is slowed, all of that stuff will settle to the bottom with your
+
+[15:15] yeast and you should be able to get rid of almost all of the pectin. Now, if you want to kill the pectin early because you think it's producing other products in it, right? I don't know this. I haven't looked it up, but if there are things that are producing methanol in your fermentation, then I would
+
+[15:31] recommend juicing, adding the Pectinex at the get go. and then racking, right? And then, you know, you lose some at the bottom or you can do a separate fermentation of the kind of stuff that has the broken down pectin in it and then ferment the batch with no pectin in it by starting at the beginning. But even without a centrifuse, you should be able, depending on the apple variety. Some apple varieties don't settle very well at all. And some apple varieties settle quite well. But if you're doing a typical, you know, chumming them up in an apple grinder and pressing them, you're getting rid of a lot of the solids anyway, so then hitting it with the ultra SPL after that
+
+[16:12] procedure, but before fermentation should work. So I don't know whether you're one of these people that um, kills the yeast and then, and then allows the wild yeast to do afterwards, but you at least have a day before it really starts ripping and
+
+[16:23] roaring, and that's more than enough time to get the pectin to settle out. Anyway. What do you think? Okay. You're like, don't. Nastasi's like, don't care. Okay. They got a chat room question if you want to. Sure, what do you got? Actually, it's more like a request for New York restaurant recommendations from both of you. Oh, well, Nastasia should give the recommendations. No, don't eat out anymore. Since when? recommendations. When did you stop eating out? Month ago. What was the best place to eat months ago? Probably not relevant anymore. Why, are they close? I can't, I need to think. What kind of restaurants are they? Where are they coming from? I don't know. They're coming here, though, so. All right, well, nice. Well, so that's one that's one out of the way. Um, I mean, it depends on what you want, right? How much money? Oh, Chicago, I hear. Oh, yeah, it depends on what kind of restaurant experience you want. really. I mean, like everyone's all, everyone's, are they still, everyone's still hyped up about Pasquale Jones? What kind of pill are you taking, Stass? We're on the radio here. Pep, pep it up, pep it up. Give some answers. It looks like he's already going to Contra, which... Oh, you should totally go there. Classic video game. No. No, Contra is, uh, that's, uh, you know, my my friend's uh, fabulous. Fabian Von Husky and Jeremiah Stone. definitely go there. Where's that? That is in the lower East side on Orchard Street. like down, you know, close to Delancey. Yeah definitely go there. What kind of food? Good? Oh, that kind. Yeah, no, like, so they have 2 restaurants. They have wild air, which is like a natural wine bar situation where, you know, you order like tastings, like plates, and then they have where they have this incredibly crispy squid thing there, and then next door is Contra, which is their original
+
+[18:08] or flagship one, and that's more of a tasting menu, where, not mean, like, you know, a flight. Like they bring, like, you get what you get and you don't get upset. You know what I mean? Both excellent. I've been several times. Cool. All right. So good choice. Um, We had a question from Ryan about from St. Louis about Confit. A local chef turned butcher offers confit chicken leg quarters to go. What's a chicken leg quarter? Did they mean the whole quarter of the back chicken, including the leg? I think that's what they mean. Do you think that's what they mean? I have no idea what a chicken leg quarter is. I think it's probably just the chicken leg with the thigh and that piece of the that piece of the skeleton in the back. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Like, if you were to take a chicken and be like, hey, how about you be 4 pieces of chicken instead of one piece of
+
+[18:57] chicken like that? You know what I'm saying? And so you'd get the bread, 2 breasts, the 2 back leg things, and then the back, which you use for soup. Yeah? Yeah, that's what I'm going to assume we're talking about. He mentioned they were cooked at 180 degrees Fahrenheit for 72 hours using a circulator. I'm interested in replicating this at home, but have not seen any similar time and temperatures of this preparation online. Is it likely that I misheard the butcher's instructions or do you think that this time and temperature could yield great results? Also, would you recommend salting before the cook? Thanks for your time. Show's fantastic. Ryan from St. Louis. Yeah, if it's going to be a confit, you got assault it beforehand, or it doesn't taste like confit, right? So I would always go through the classic cure step with herbs and salt before you do your
+
+[19:43] confit, and the salt, again, it's not just taste. The texture of the meat. I'm pretty sure, although have I done it without any salt at all? Look, salted. That's what it's supposed to be. That's what a coffee is supposed to taste like. Modern confees have a lot lower salt level than old school confees. Because in an old school comfy. It was salt and then cooking, and it was an actual preservation method. So you're looking at preserving something under grease. So the salt level in those cases needs to be high enough to prevent the growth of things like botulism. There's also, you know, contrary to what people say, you know, a decent amount of evaporation, not
+
+[20:16] a lot, you know, not a boat ton, but enough because otherwise it wouldn't be bubbling now, would it? So the, uh, because that's what is evaporating, uh, water. The oil is not boiling. Anyway. So, one, yes, salt, two. I have never seen a recipe that is 100 and when you're at 180 degrees. You're up close to normal confit temperatures anyway, like 185 somewhere in there, Fahrenheit. This is in the 80s, somewhere in the 80s in Celsius land. And that is kind of normal confit temperature. And therefore, I would say it only needs to cook for normal confit time on the order of several hours or, you know, a little more, not a little less, a little
+
+[20:59] more depending if you're on the lower side of that temperature. And as your temperatures drop lower, even a little bit lower, the times are going to extend longer and
+
+[21:06] longer. When I start hearing things like 48, 72 hours, then I'm thinking you're cooking at much lower temperatures, down like 64 degrees Celsius, which I can't convert in my head.
+
+[21:18] Uh, because that's the lowest thing I would call via, uh, chicken ad, still gonna, you know, it's, it's, but here's the thing. I've tested lower temperature confites in the 6465 Celsius range. And those ones you would have to cook for not for 72 hours, but for a long time. And I don't like them because they don't have the characteristic texture of confit. They're good. They're not overcooked, and they are tender, but they're not the same. My guess is that if you cook it for that long, it's going to be a little bit mushy. I would never do it for 72 hours. I don't see any benefit. I think you're gonna lose texture at that point. But that's me. Did I say enough about that? All right. So, uh, should we take a short break and come back uh, with some cookies on cookie cookie issue? issues? Yeah. All right. Write it back.
+
+[22:16] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brûlée, even smooth, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[22:57] Browse chest steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
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+[23:11] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E.
+
+[23:25] Welcome back to cooking issues. So we're doing a cookie tasting from Judy
+
+[23:32] Malden, and she said to only unwrap them on air. So Nastasia has the mic down by the wrapper so that you can hear the fact that we are unwrapping it. Sorry, what's his name? Gritzer. Daniel Gritzer is the one that hates the noises. He made them when he was on air. What a, what a... I'm saying, like, you know. Okay, so there's a note on the cookie. What does it say? This one is a matcha butterscotch. Matcha and butterscotch. Do you like matcha in general stuff? Yeah. Do you like matcha ice cream or matcha the beverage or any form of matcha? And any form? Really? I'm quite surprised. Because other people like matchas, so I would assume that you do not. So Dave, you're gonna come in here and sit sit down for a minute, step away from the booth. this thing can run itself. All right. He's like, I don't really need to be here. can run itself. Okay. So, all right, so here, and we'll break this into into trunks. Now, Nastasius had these in her apartment for a couple of weeks, because things haven't worked out to the, you know, what they're supposed to. That's good. Step away from the mic when you're chewing. Good flavor. All right, going in. It's good. Yeah. I like matcha. It works. It's kind of light on the matcha, right? Yeah. It's light on matcha, heavy on the... Heavy on that. Well that's yeah, the butterscotching. Wait, what's the next one? By the way, so she's making these in. her whole shtick. what is it? What the next one, stuff? Matcha cover, cocoa, macadamia, green mango, cranberry. What? This is a 2nd matcha thing? Yeah. Hmm. Anyway, so her thing here is she's obsessed with, you know, we should get her a meeting with Christina Tozi because she is obsessed with Christina Tozi.
+
+[25:18] She loves Christina Tozi. So she basically she bases all of these cookies on Tozi's base recipe for, I forget which one, the blueberry cream, blueberry cream. What's the next one? We have to, by the way, we have to go through... All right, well, get one of the next ones. All right, so while you're unwrapping this. pine nut. What? Green mango pineaut. open those ones. You open those while I'm answering the question. You're unwrapping these and taste it. By the way, that is not mouth noises. That is cellophane noises. So I don't want to hear any. Dave, Dave, our intrepid engineer, is doing that, but we can't all eat at the same time. So Dave, you take a bite of this, and you can discuss this as it happens, and I'll talk so that no one has to listen to just dead radio silence of mouth noises, which everybody
+
+[26:03] hates. All right, well, well, uh, David's tasting these uh, cookies, uh, and then I'll taste them. I'm going to answer a question from Nick Devlin. Nick wrote into Twitter before. What's a reasonable deal for a hostino, hostino, by the way, is when you blend liquor and fruit? Uh, and then uh, with uh, with uh, Pectanex, uh, enzyme. It destroys a pectin, you spin it out and the centerfusion becomes clear again. What's a reasonable yield for a gustino? I'm getting around 85% yield using dried peach at 150 grams of dried peach per liter of booze,
+
+[26:35] in a centrifugia, 330, 3300 Gs. I think we got enough of the crinkle, Stas. I'm going to move that in the microwave. Um, And I said, look, uh, you know, if you drive fruits out, it really lowers the yield. And it's because if you look at 150 grams of dried peaches, that's the equivalent, probably, of like 500 grams of peaches, so you're looking at like almost, uh, you're looking at probably at somewhere in the order of
+
+[27:03] 250, 300 and something uh, grams of water loss. So, the peach, as you infuse it, and the liquor is gonna want to reabsorb that water. And so it's going to make your yield consequently lower. Also, because you are hydrating it and trying to break it down. The parts that aren't hydrated aren't going to get broken down by your pectinx enzyme that well. So I recommend always doing what's called a remuyage, and in a remuyage, what you're doing is you're remoistening this stuff and trying to extract out some of the stuff that you missed on the 1st go around. And you tried that and you said that when you blended the Remy back in, it ended up too weak. So here are my 2 recommendations. One, you don't want to use a lot. And when I'm saying when you're doing a remoyage, it's just a little bit of water, just enough to kind of resuspend it and make it a liquid again, add a little more enzyme, and then that will hopefully break down some of the stuff that didn't get broke down before and increase your
+
+[27:59] yield dramatically. And also, before your 1st spin, blend it with the Pectinex, wait a while for the stuff to rehydrate again and then blend it
+
+[28:11] again, to kind of rebreak up what's in there and really get it broken down fine.
+
+[28:16] So waiting is really going to be your friend. And, uh, if you do a remo yash, that's a small amount, uh, and even maybe a little bit of liquor with a little bit of water, or just a little bit of water at the get go into the dried fruit before you do the
+
+[28:29] blend to try to get some of the water level back up a little bit before you do
+
+[28:33] your, um, before you do your spin. And so that's what I'm going to recommend. So how, Dave, how are those, which ones you can taste? I'm not sure Well okay. I just kind of ate what you handed me. All right, well, so They were good. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're a little cold. Where were you storing them? Those 2 are in the freezer. Okay, yeah. In her heart. Wow. That was a that was the green mango one. That's good, is the one to say? Okay, yeah, the mango one was the one I just had. No, read the hombre description. Oh, I have another cookie. Uh, ba, ba, ba, ba. El hombre. Chili pekin, guitar, chocolate. No, that's not the one I had. No, you haven't had that yet. Peanut butter chips and cocoa. So it's a spicy, it's a spicy chocolate, it's a spicy Reese's. It's a spicy recess cookie. Oh. Is it, in fact, a spicy recess cookie? It's like super spicy? Chili pekin is a nice spicy spicy. Well, in a minute, after, like, I'm done talking, then he can, all right, so you ready to talk? It's still chewing. This is the hard part about Judy about cookie tastings on the air. They take your mouth parts up. It's impossible to talk. the one that heated the wine tasting? What? I don't, yeah, she did not like the wine tasting. is true. All right. So, um, let me see. Uh, Brandon Hodgkins wrote in, uh, Hodgins wrote in about induction in Phoenix. I'm remodeling my, you're tasting these and you're letting me know what's going on, right? All right. remodeling my kitchen soon, which means I get to pick out a new cooktop. My home is not fitted for gas, so I'm going with an induction cooked up. I'm gonna just use the pavement. You ever been in summer in Phoenix does? Nasty, right? How about you, Dave? You ever been to? No, never been at all? No. I like Phoenix. It's like, well, Arizona, like a lot of old people, right? In Arizona? I mean, there's a Florida of the Southwest. Uh, yeah, I mean, especially there's certain there's like retirement communities there, but, um, they, like, if you grew up watching Bugs Bunny
+
+[30:34] Roadrunner, it, like, really looks like that. Like there really are Suaro cactuses just like hanging around. So you like the desert and you're into that? I mean it's pretty cool. You know what I mean? Like, and, like, they're also, like, if you're into, like, Yosemite Sam and that kind of stuff. There are literally tumbleweeds flying around on the streets. Like, it's like real. You know what I mean? Like not in the city proper, but, It's no joke. What cookie is that you're handing? This is the MFing jungle. Oh, is this like a MFing is presumably the curse. Family show. Yeah, and that's that's also a matcha, matcha based. Okay. So, um, Anyway, back to back from Phoenix. Phoenix also, like, I don't know, like the main problem I have with Phoenix is it's in like a bowl shaped valley, and so it's easy for pollution to kind of get caught down there, but I haven't been there in over a
+
+[31:24] decade. So I don't know if they've taken care of that problem. Why? What is this one? This one's the one with poison it. Nuclear war cheers. Oh, right. All right. So we'll try that. All right, what was the one I just had, the MFer? Yeah, it was a little sweet. So break break up. This is nuclear war cheeto, which I'm going to try after I answer this question while Dave is talking about the cookies. Okay. Um, instead, you can, you can make your comments in a 2nd here. I do not have gas. I'll be going induction. I have the oven separate so I can go with a standalone cooktop. I narrowed it down to 2 options and was wondering if I could get your opinions and advice. He's looking at the wolf CI, which would not stand for cooking issues. I believe it's probably cooktop induction. 36, uh, 5, 365, so it's 36 inches wide, 5 burner. And the Bosch, NITP, 66. Now, I like triple 6 because of the triple 6
+
+[32:17] mafia, and of course, the demo reference. Satanic, yeah. Yeah. I don't know why anyone would make a cookware appliance with a number of the beast in it,
+
+[32:25] but, although maybe if it sells well, like we should think of that for our stuff. We should change it from the centrifuge to a triple 6 thing. I don't know. Anyway. So you said Bosch seems cool because of the square zones on the set. So here, let me tell you the layout because you guys can't see what the hell's going on. I can't either, but I looked at it earlier. So, it turns out, induction, induction cooktops look like they've come a long way in the past couple of years. The way that the, um, the way that the, um, wolf is laid out is it has uh, 4 normal
+
+[32:57] size burners on the side and then one large burner on the, on the left and one large burner on the right. Now, what's cool about the wolf is that you can run everything in called bridge mode.
+
+[33:08] So you can bridge the back 2 burners into one burner, the front 2 burners into one
+
+[33:13] burner, or the side burner, you know, the left or the right into into one burner, and they also have what's called boost. So you can suck the power out of the burner next to it, which you're not using, and jack it into, um, into one
+
+[33:28] burner, and, and it's kind of, it's fairly powerful. So, like, uh, you know, the, the, the smaller ones go between 2100 watts, which is still more powerful than any plug-in induction, and 3000 watts
+
+[33:41] and boost, and the big one goes from 2600 watts to 3700 watts. Uh, which is good, it's powerful, uh, in boost. It looks good. People seem to like it. What I'm curious about when you put those things in bridge mode and have 2 burners running and try to put like a roasting pan across it. I wonder how even the heat is because they look, uh, it looks kind of like the, like the elements are round, but people seem to enjoy using it. The other thing I'll note, and this also goes for the Bosch, is that neither of them appear to allow you to control temperature, which is kind of interesting.
+
+[34:15] They all go by power ratings. And one of the nice things about induction is if you put proper sensors in, now, they won't be as accurate as
+
+[34:23] the Brevel one that I'm using because they're not going to have external,
+
+[34:28] you know, like pop-up sensors like the Brevel one does, but you can put like something under the ceramic to do basic sensing of
+
+[34:34] temperature. And you could also have a jack so that you could have a temperature monitor monitor. I'm just a little surprised that they don't give you a temperature as well as
+
+[34:41] a power, but maybe no one does that in a cooktop because the Bosch people don't do it either. But it seems like a good unit. The Bosch unit is really, really an interesting setup because what they do is they have a large round burner in the
+
+[34:54] middle, and then on the left and right, they have rectangular burners that are divided into 2 sections. So you have a, like a, like a front and back, left and right, and then a big center one. And the interesting thing is that the layout of them is can also be bridged together so that they're one, you know, either a full left side or a full right
+
+[35:13] side. You can't do what the wolf does. The wolf allows you to do all 4 as one, a big 17 inch thing, which would be cool if you had a large
+
+[35:24] cast iron griddle, let's say. But these allow you to do strips along either side. And I actually saw an exploded diagram of it. And the actual elements are kind of dual oval elements. So it should probably be fairly even over the entire width of that
+
+[35:42] element, which is nice. Now that gets me, the only downside I really see about the Bosch is people seem to say that they don't like how the controls work for it. And since you're going to be using it every day for all of the cooking that you're doing. I highly suggest that you actually use it. I'm going to say the same thing about the other one. Find someone somewhere that has a unit running that will let you run it. They should have some, here in New York, they even have some places that have all of their cooktops hooked
+
+[36:10] up. But, I would be very curious how even the, um, the wolf one is when you're using non-round pans on those things in
+
+[36:21] bridge mode. If they're even, then fan freaking tastic. But they draw the burner shapes round, which leads me to believe that the elements themselves are round. I'm also curious to see how even it is on the bosch. If the Bosch had excellent, if people really love the controllers on the Bosch, I'd probably go with the
+
+[36:38] Bosch. But since people seem to really like the controls on the wolf and not on the bosch, then I might go for the wolf, assuming I could get a relatively heating thing. But I would definitely say you have to use it. It's too big an investment to make to not use. Yeah? Right. So, uh, Dave, you gotta, you guys, you gotta start talking about the cookies you tasted while I eat them so that I'm not making mountains. I'm waiting for you to breathe, you know? I'm breathing. All right. Yeah, the Cheeto one. Not a fan. I'm also not a fan of Cheetos to begin with, though, so, yeah, I don't know. They tasted kind of stale and brittle, and that didn't really work for me. But I have one here called Fugazi, which is getting me really excited. And I think it's like some kind of, is there mint in there? Is there a description of that one? The fugazi? Yes. Thank you. Yeah, that one's pretty good. I can't find Roxanne. You have to put on the red light. I was chewing or I would have said it for you. Do you not like Cheetos? No, never did. Any kind of like cheese puff snack. I'm not a fan of. I just had the pikin. not that spicy. The spice builds at the end. Yeah, it's not spicy. It's kind of smoky, but not like a ton of heat to it. All right, so Nastasia is trying to find that they... think that came here. that Roxanne now is going through my head. You're bringing the Fugazi back in here for you. What's in the food, guys? and 5 spices. That's in the Roxanne and the Fugazi, it's. Oh, because the red hots, red lights? Oreo cookies, York, peppers, patties, and cardamom. You like your peppermint patties and stuff? Did you say cardamom? That's what that is. There's something else in there. I couldn't tell what it was. Do you do like your carpet patties? Do you like them in the freezer or not? Really? That was my favorite candy as a kid. Freezer or not freezer? None. Huh. Are both of you non-freezer candy people in general or do you like any sort of freezered candy? do not. Really? I mean, if it's got ice cream inside of it, then sure, but. But you don't like that super hard frozen candy bar thing? No, it's got to have a little melt to it. It will melt if you chew it. immediately. I like how you, I like how usually I'm the immediate gratification guy and now you're
+
+[38:53] like, must be immediate melt or it's all worthless. It's just a, you know, I don't want to have something like rock solid that I'm chewing on.
+
+[39:02] It's not it's not ideal. Right. Hey, Stas, can you do me a favor? Can you check our email and see if Johnny Hunter got back because I asked him if someone asked a question on smoking and I might put that off for next week because I want to get Johnny's opinion on it. So Martin, if you're listening, we're going to do your smoking question next week because I just want to, I want to verify something. Wait, do you mean, like, by 1128? Did you look by 1128? I looked, I didn't look after I got on the train. No, I'm saying can you check now and see whether Johnny got back to us? Well, he sent something in 1128. Oh, yeah, that's it. All right. So, like, uh, I'll read it. take a break in a minute and I'll read it. Okay, Andrew writes in. I pretty new to the show, but I've already learned so much. I was hoping to see Dave at Harvard on Monday as I'm living in Boston right now, but I wasn't able to make it. Anyway, I make a cocktail with honey syrup, one to one honey with water. By the way, one to one honey with water. Uh, is not, uh, it's, it's, that's a very light syrup. I wouldn't go one to one honey with water. You're adding too much water, and I think that's part of, you want 640 grams of water for every kilo of honey.
+
+[40:08] I repeat that again. 640 grams of water for every kilo of honey. And the reason is, there are in every kilo of honey, there is already 18, 180 grams of
+
+[40:20] water. Right? Okay. Whether you care or not, that's the truth. Uh, and lavender infused vodka. It tastes great, but in order to have the amount of honey flavor I want, I have to add a lot of honey. This makes a drink super sweet. Um, I want a clear honey flavor without the sticky, impossible to drink multiple sweetness. I'm also interested in the use of honey flavor and savory dishes without a huge addition of sweetness. I know you guys have answered a similar question with the distillation of floral notes of habanero peppers. And if you would answer this question before I apologize. I have a lot of catching up to do in the podcast, but otherwise any help will be great. Thanks so much, Andrew. Well, you could go for like, if you want honey flavor without the sweetness, you could do distillation. I'm pretty sure I
+
+[41:01] used to do rotovap stuff of honey, although I can't really remember it. Um, you could also use, uh, you could ferment out some of the sugars and use a mead that's on the dryer side, right? And that's going to have, although the honey notes will have changed. But one of the main things is, like I said, don't do one
+
+[41:17] to one to one, do 640 to a kilo. And then by adding less water, the entire thing will be shorter, right? So you're still going to have the problem because to get a whatever level of sweetness, you're going to add however much actual sugar from the honey.
+
+[41:33] So the real solution to your problem, I believe, is going to
+
+[41:37] be, um, finding a stronger honey. So, like, you know, do like a comparative honey taste, and some of them are much, you know,
+
+[41:44] wildly, uh, more assertive than others. So I don't know what you're using. You didn't mention. Like if you're using something that's relatively neutral, like a clover honey,
+
+[41:53] you know, by switching to something a little more with a little more power, I think you'll be able to up your up your honey game. Do you remember anything we did with uh, with, honey? No? I'm sure I must have distilled it at some point, but I can't remember what the results are. Um, so do you, do you think those, the, and the thing is, the meats, once they're fermented, don't taste 100% like honey anymore, right? But they're good. You could bolster it with fresh honey, and then I think it would be like honey pow, but that's expensive. And it's probably hard for anyone who's not, doesn't have a source already to find the dry meat and they're not, anyway, it's something to think about. Okay. So, uh, could you do me a favor? Can you pull up Johnny's email on your phone so that I can keep the thing up? Okay, we got a question in from, Did you taste all the cookies, by the way? My stomach hurts. I think I had too many cookies Too many cookies. What's the one I have in my hand that you handed me, Nastasia? Um... I think that's the Karen. Karen. Did you have Fugazi yet? Maybe I have Fugazi. No Fugazi's down here. All right, listen, why don't we take a quick break? I chew on this, read Johnny's thing, and then I'll come back and answer this question.
+
+[43:43] And we are back. All right, so it turns out, Martin, I am going to answer your question. Um, I, I like, a lot of times, like, if I haven't done something specifically, I like to just ask people that actually have rather than give advice out of the blue,
+
+[44:02] right? So Martin writes in, hi, Dave. I'm about to build myself a smoker slash dryer to make cold smoked jerky. It kind of sounds vaguely like cold smoked jerky. Sounds like a little, there's something vaguely sinister sounding about it. Jerky. I think jerky. I love jerky. You like jerky. It's one of the few things that you actually like. Do you like, do you like the fibers to be short or long? Sure. So you like, you don't like to have to like rip your teeth off. You don't want to have to, like, get dentures. Well, actually, I guess, like, you know, you want a jerky that could be eaten with dentures. That what you're saying. Okay. Denture friendly. Denture friendly jerky. I kind of like it in between. Anyway. I want to put a humidistat and a thermostat into it as well. The thermostat is for microbial control, and the humidity stat is to ensure that I can reproduce the end product consistently. And then what do you think my process should be? Should I do? Here are the choices in chat room, you can chime in on this too, because I know you got some smokers out there. Should I do a 2 stage where I won cold smoke and then 2 dry, or a 3 stage where I won hot smoke for my
+
+[45:11] microbial control, 2 cold smoke it for additional flavor, and then 3 dry, or should I do the smoking and drying in a very controlled way all at once? And can you give me tips on the design? And then you ask, what do you think of this smoke generator? And it's a German one, Borniac. So I don't have any experience with it on anyone that's used it, but I like that word Borniac. Uh, it sounds like a maniac smoker, right? But it's basically just one of those auger screw feeds where it has like a low
+
+[45:38] temperature element and it feeds the stuff past the burner, creates the smoke and has a long tube so that the smoke can cool down, which seems
+
+[45:47] fine. I'm assuming you're going to put it into something like an old fridge or a box that you're going to
+
+[45:52] make and a bunch of people sell controllers for it. And it should be fairly straight forward on that. But as for your procedure. Here's what I asked Johnny, I was like, what do you think on safety? He says, there can be an E. coli risk if the meat isn't cooked. But if you do an acid wash, then you can lower it. The feds, i.e. our federal government, say you have to cook beef through. That being said, it's almost for sure safe to cold smoke and dry, says Johnny Hunter coming in. I also said, look, the real issue here when you're smoking, right? So when you're making jerky, you just season it, you know, do whatever you're gonna do, season it, and then you dehydrate it, but remember, it's never in an anaerobic environment. So you're never in a situation where you have to worry about, um, botulism or anything like that growing. The real issue is when you're taking something uh, and putting it in an anaerobic environment, which, you know, smoker is, can be anyway. And then, um, And then not heating it to the point where you're going cold, where you're not heating it to destroy botulas and
+
+[46:57] botulism can in fact grow while it's still moist. And then because you're not heating it again afterwards, you're not wouldn't deactivate any toxins that were created in the product while it was smoking. That's theory. I don't know, right? And apparently also, Johnny says there's an coli, well, there's obviously coli risking beef to begin with. So anyways, what you could do on the botulism front, if you really
+
+[47:19] wanted to keep it cold 100%, is you could just nitrate it, right? And then nitrating is going to prov along with the salt. That's going to prevent any botulism growth during the cold smoke phase, and then once you're drying it out, then you're drying it out in an aerobic environment, you should be fine.
+
+[47:32] Anyway, those are my thoughts. Um, we have time for one more or we, uh... All right. So we have a question in, and this is actually, this is the one that came with a long question alert from Shy. Because it's more of a follow-up, which I enjoy. Where are we? Nastasi, my brain has been turned off. I can no longer find things. Hello cooking issues. First thing, a while ago, I asked how to prevent plums from getting bitter during baking, because remember, there was a problem where the plums on cooking turned more bitter in a plum tart.
+
+[48:05] And I said that there's a bunch of people online that have that problem. Anyway, I followed your suggestions. And so taff of the chopped plums in milk, uh, in milk and the other soaked in water, then drained and baked them. Sadly, the experiment failed as none of the plums got bitter at all. Hmm. Well, that's not really failure because you didn't have bitter tart. It seems like a success, although you know what you didn't do. You didn't do a control with no soak at all. Like maybe you were leeching out some of the stuff that caused the problem. So you didn't have a full control there. Anyway, um, The experiment failed as none of the plums got bitter at all. So I guess it had to do with the variety. ripeness and growing conditions, which almost uncertainly did. Almost certainly did rather. However, the milk soaked plums did keep a little more solid and firm. quite interesting. Could that be the calcium in the milk? I doubt there's enough of it to make a difference. Well, I don't know. First of all, the plum is relatively acid, so I don't know how much of the
+
+[49:02] calcium is going to be available after whatever happens at the kind of acidic barrier between the plum and the
+
+[49:07] milk. It's a question for someone that's actually studied that rather than someone who's just, you know, making it up as I go along, which is what I would be doing if I said something. But your questions about milk. First, I really liked brown milk solids that form in clarifying brown butter. Nastasia, you brown butter fan? Yeah? I feel like I used to make brown butter a lot, like, I guess because I used to make Madeleines a lot. Do you like Madeleines? They're a good pastry, right? Need to be fresh. You know what I don't like? Everyone, remember? Like, I mean, I think it was Danielle or someone. They used to hand you the Madlen at the end of dinner and you would eat it right then. It was like fresh. Like you wanted Madlin to be fresh. I love a fresh Medland. Anyway, brown butter, but there's always so little of those solids. Is it possible to add plain milk or cream to the butter in order to increase the amount of solids? Um, Well, no, you mean, no. Because you need to make the, you need to make the, you could. Okay, look, you could add it maybe to the cream before you
+
+[50:04] turn the butter, right? But the easiest thing to do would probably be just to add milk solids to the cream before you do
+
+[50:13] it because you don't want to add a whole boat ton of water to extra water in the milk to the
+
+[50:21] cream before you turn it to butter. But I'm sure you could increase the solids content of the butter by just jacking the amount of milk solids that are in it. Uh, hell. Heck, I mean, you might even be able to just add milk solids to the butter as it's cooking and just burn them. But it won't be the same. Obviously, that's cheating because they won't agglomerate the same way. Um, Second, what causes some labneh cheese, which is, I guess, the same as Greek yogurt. You like Greek yogurt sauce? Yep. You ever go to the Greek yogurt place that's near your house where they make it and it's like super duper thick? those guys who are like some Turkish stuff and some Greek stuff? So good. They make really good stuff and they have really good taramos a lot. That's like the best taramos lot I've ever had in my life. For those of you, taramasolata is that Greek thing with like the with like the fish eggs in it. It's kind of creamy. And the stuff that they sell on the supermarket shelves is, like, rubbish garbage compared to, like, the real deal stuff that is made fresh. So if you're in New York and the international, if the international grocery is still in business. Are they still in business? Do you every walk by there anymore? I don't walk by there anymore. Anyway, on ninth Avenue, best tear muscle out I've ever had in my life. They also make their own Batarga. Do you like Patarga? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Sorry, back to the question, because I know we're on our way out. Second, what causes some lab net cheese to be pleasantly bitter. Now, I've never noticed bitterness in strained yogurt products like Greek yogurt. you ever notice it? Any bitterness? I've never noticed it. This is not a flavor I've noticed in other sour milk products, but it's similar to that found in some aged cheeses from what I've
+
+[52:00] read, this is related to protein breakdown. I would like to be able to induce it when I make my own strained yogurt. Well, uh, again, I haven't tasted, so I can't really say one thing I can say is that in situations where
+
+[52:11] you are moving a lot, a lot, a lot of the water, uh, and the denser it gets, the more way you're
+
+[52:16] removing and way is inherently sweet because way has more lactose in it. And so maybe what you're noticing is just a reduction in sweetness, which should pump up the sourness because
+
+[52:25] there's more sour solids there, but also maybe that you're picking up on some flavor that's being masked by the lactose. That my only guess, and it's just a guess. And lastly, for Nastasia on the way out. One more thing. If I remember correctly, Nastasia should be back from Naples. I plan to visit there in a couple of months and would appreciate hearing about your trip. Anything? Wasn't worth it. don't go Wow. Nastasia in a, really? Didn't like Naples? What other cities were you there on that trip? Uh... none that I would recommend. Wow. Normally, an Italian file, people, but for some reason, not a good trip. Nastasia. Well, you said... Okay, Nastasia had a bad trip. I have been on a, been with Nastasia on bad trips, people, and she will judge a whole city by whether she had a good time on a particular trip and it's just who she happened to be sitting next.
+
+[53:19] So Naples don't take it personally, cooking issues.
+
+[53:34] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, and she's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network for Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:38] Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Actually, we're really on time this today, right? Yeah. Crazy. We got a lot to go through, some good, some great, some terrible. If you have questions. Call into questions, 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. On the show we have, as usual, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. good. Good. We have Dave slash David in the booth. How you doing? We have a special recurring guest and a secondary tasting
+
+[1:14] panel because for those of you that listen to the podcast regularly, Nastasia, literally doesn't care about coffee, merely because I do care. Really. definitely not true. It's the only it's the only real reason. So we brought lover of all things taste related. and coffee as well. And also an expert in coffee techniques that I am not. We got Paul from Popular Science. How you doing? I've had a lot of coffee. Yeah. So, you know, and you can tweet him out at at pot.pot. No, it's at pot. At Popseye Eats. Oh, Pops, I eat. Twitter. Or you can email me at my secret private. Oh, never mind. Just gave out. Ah, yeah. Strength. And we have, now, I'm not sure his title, but we
+
+[2:00] have Kali, Kali.
+
+[2:03] Kale, Kale, from Sudden Coffee, correct? Correct. And what's your title over there? Definitely not chief coffee officer, but yeah. I has all the coffee. co-founder. Are you on the engineering side, are you on the production side, the tasting side, the money side, the
+
+[2:21] bro side? There's 2 of us, and I have a numbers guy, Josh. who's very much numbers guy, and then I handle the rest. So you're more production engineering. All right. So, uh, he's on the show today because I think you're probably here for the coffee festival we had in New York this weekend,
+
+[2:37] right? Yeah, which I went to. We could talk more about that later. But we had a number of people actually tweeting on, and I think asking even whether we had tried this sudden coffee, and so we're
+
+[2:49] going to try it in a minute. You want to go over what the, you've had this like, how do you start? were you a Kickstarter situation? What were you? We, well, I started working on about a year ago. So setting coffee is instant coffee. tastes really good. Right. That's it. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, what it is, is, is instant coffee that's supposed to actually be, now, is it tastes like coffee or it's just good in its own ripe, but isn't the same thing as coffee? Well, we think it's pretty good as coffee. what we aim for. Okay. So it's not a 3rd product. Not really. I think we're, what we want to be doing is creating another way, like alternative way of drinking good coffee. It's not meant to replace brewing coffee ourselves or going out to a coffee shop, but rather just help you drink good coffee when you wouldn't be able to otherwise. Yeah. Yep. So, uh, now your main competitor then is Starbucks still selling that via thing? What's it called Via Condios? What the hell is that called? Yeah, yeah, via. Whatever. Why would you choose something that has alternate English pronunciations? Good question. via via, if you can, you can hire a very expensive brown agency who will tell you that, that it sounds sophisticated, I guess. Do you think it sounds sophisticated? I don't think so Starbucks is also the company that has special names for sizes of coffee. Do you know that back in the day I used to get into arguments? I think they become much more flexible now? We might have talked about this years and years ago, noastasia, but you would actually appreciate this because this is the kind of thing Nastasio would do. I would walk in, I would like, I would like a double espresso. and they're like, dopio, and I would say double. And they would say, yeah, they would say dopio. I was like, no, I would like a double. Like it would just, I would see how long I could keep it going. And it used to be basically forever. They would, they would just, they would go like, W.O. and then go, maybe... Hand it to me, and I was like, and, you know,
+
+[4:35] and, and there's no need to go into like what the hell tall means because it has no meaning. But, um, yeah, I don't think I don't like things that sound like specific via sounds like viaduct. Yeah. And duct work doesn't sound like something I want to drink out of. Or V Agra. Oh, that, well, that probably, that's, that's a good, you know, uh, I also said this in the air before, but my son Booker, who's now 14, so it would be incredibly inappropriate for me to say this, but when he was a little kid, he used to say, I'm
+
+[5:03] gonna put batteries in my penis. When he's a little kid, before he knew what it meant. And I thought that would be the best Viagra slogan, it would beat the hell out of like all these like Cialis and Viagra things. If a dude just walked up and was like, yo, put batteries in your penis, Viagra. Boom. And then walked away. How many would that sell? Because batteries, you know, has their, their kind of, you know, you put some batteries in, it becomes like a mag light. You know what I mean? It's very strong. Very strong. Yeah. It could shape the pills to look like little better. Like little batteries? Yeah. Is that what it works? It's got the energizer. It's got the energizer reference. Anyway, I think it's genius. My son, Booker, has a promising future as an ad exec, I think. Anyway. So back to, um, back to sudden coffee. before we taste it, I have other stuff to go through, but so explain the process. What makes this different from viaduct coffee? Or Folgers, which, as Nastasia believes, is the best part of waking up. That is definitely not true. Before I go there, I think a little bit of context is sort of important. I would be extremely skeptical if somebody came on our air and said that this
+
+[6:11] isn't coffee, that doesn't suck. my background. I be working in coffee as a barista for like 10 years, when the finish versus championships twice, and I was ranked ninth in the world last year. Ran a couple coffee shops and all sinky, um, also ninth best coffee taster, I think. And basically what I, to me, coffee is a really concrete, great way of making somebody stay better. And I want to make great coffee as easy and fun and accessible as possible. And I was really frustrated by how unscalable doing a coffee shop is. So decided to close that about a year and a half ago and started figuring out what would be a more, like a better way to make good coffee
+
+[6:45] happen. And I studied food science at University of Helsinki. So had a pretty good idea of instant coffee and why it sucks. And 1st of all, for those of you that don't know, fins have one of the highest per capita coffee consumptions in the world. True. But you also, like traditionally drink it, some people and drink it with grounds. So you also have like strange health anomalies due to high consumption of grounds. Is that not true? Yeah, and especially sort of... There's a lot of theories about busy the cholesterol,
+
+[7:11] well, like cholesterol increasing effects of drinking also unfiltered coffee. But that's majority is like drip coffee. Yeah. But you're like, you're that much kind of people that you're like, I just drink the grounds. I just, that's it. We need a filter? Totally. Yeah. You know, uh, Nils Nora, my friend, uh, Utah. What? He's Swedish, but he has Finnish jokes where, like, you're drinking with
+
+[7:36] a, you're drinking with a fin, and the Swede says to the fin, skull, and the fin says, are we here to drink or to talk? So you talk more than most fins, I would expect. I know, that's why they kick me out. And I thought, oh, is a benefit, benefit in the US. Yeah, nice. All right, go ahead. So, like, you've said more than the entire country of Finland. Pretty much. All right, nice. Okay, good. All right. So go ahead. So basically what you're saying is you have credentials. Now what? Yeah, so you think coffee is liquid coffee that's dehydrated. And usually the big companies that I'll be making now have the intention of making as much of it for as little money as possible without really caring how it tastes like.
+
+[8:10] Although it is technologically sophisticated process, right? It is extremely. Like evaporation recapturing, rejoining the solids with the theoretically with the aromas, yeah. Yeah, theoretically, but, I mean, if you, like, if you taste it, it doesn't taste great for what's been out on the market so far. And that's because they essentially start with, like, really cheap
+
+[8:30] froppy coffee that nobody else wants to drink, um, take that, roast it, and they extract it twice, which, like, blew my mind when I 1st heard about it. I mean, they actually, like, steep it twice to make 2 beverages, like a, like a, like a small beer and a lot, like, like,
+
+[8:44] like rewashing. Yeah, but even more. So they extracted a like normal temperature. It was called the aroma extraction, so about like 100 degrees Celsius for whatever time. And normally out of coffee, you can extract about 30% of the mass. So that's like water soluble part and rest is cellulose. It's a crown you dump. But what they do is that they, so they breed wine once and then they brew it twice, 2nd time at like 15 bars pressure, 180 degrees Celsius for
+
+[9:10] hours. And what happens, that pressure is the hemicelilose changes and becomes water soluble. And you can go from like 20% extraction needle, which is the stuff you extract, which is what you normally want to
+
+[9:22] do to up to 60%, which makes a lot of sense if you want to get as much stuff out of there out of the bean for as little money as possible.
+
+[9:29] Well, does that also, do they need the increase in, in other words, like, would an alternate technique
+
+[9:34] if they weren't looking for pure number of extraction, does the hemicellulose help in bulking later? Is that another reason why they do it? Could they add another solid bulking agent or is that? It's partly for that. So they, well, they do, for that, is they basically combine them and
+
+[9:49] then essentially boil it down. Vacuum dates desolation, right? Yeah, yeah. And then Same like for orange juice. Right. And most of it is spray dried. So they actually use that sort of the added solids, it helps into spray drying. Right, they don't have to add malto. They don't have to add multidextrin. Now, but from my impression, there is a vacuum distillation run, then a spray dry, right, then a recom combining, and then an air drying, or something
+
+[10:16] like. There many steps. It takes a lot of steps to make even crappy instant coffee, right? And I don't even know, like, what else, like, all the stuff that goes into a factory. They haven't turned me one. but there's a bunch of stuff going and then it's like spray dried, so dried with hot air. Um, and it's not definitely a great way to preserve any flavors that might be in there or arumas. But they've already deromatized it at that point for the most part, yeah. Most part, yeah. So they actually, once you have the dry coffee, they spray some of the coffee aroma and oil into that ground to make it smell and taste fresher. But, I mean, to me, there's like whole thing doesn't make any sense. We were thinking that what if we what if we just started with the best possible coffee you can
+
+[10:52] find. Extract it really nicely and dehydrated in a way that really preserves all the flavors in
+
+[11:00] there or as much as we can. By the way, I've never tasted instant coffee. What? Really? What's wrong with you? Why would I do that? Well, I mean, that's the thing. I don't blame you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, have you tasted a test? I mean, yeah, obviously. What about you, Paul? I believe I've tasted it. It doesn't really. I think I've developed any positive. We used to have it in my house when I was growing up because my mom would use it in cake recipes.
+
+[11:22] Yeah, well, should we try some now? Yeah, okay, so before, like, what's your technique? Can I get milk and sugar? Whoa. You can, but I will stare at you strangely with me, busted up eye. Yeah, actually, David, can we get some? Because otherwise Nastasi's gonna hem and haw the rest of the day and say that I'm a bad person more than normal. Yeah, we'll humor her. Yeah, yeah. All right. So what's your tech? Are you using straight freeze drying or what are you doing? Kind of. So we, like, we started as a, like, where a San Francisco-based startup now. So we started as this famous starup guy called Paul Graham, who says that do things that don't scale. Like 1st get a product done. See if you can make something you like. Yeah, right. And if somebody wants to pay you that before you figure out how you scale that. So we started by having myself in a garage in Soma neighborhood with a single group of espresso machine pulling a lot of espresso shots that we then kind of filter and took through our process and essentially free stride.
+
+[12:20] Now, one of the problems with espresso in general, I'm sure you're familiar is that, um, it's, uh, it's, uh, like,
+
+[12:29] like, changing constantly on a chemical basis the minute it's pulled. So like a cold espresso, even as carefully rewarmed as possible in a completely static environment with no anything, just changes over
+
+[12:41] time, or espresso keeping, keep kept at a constant temperature will change drastically over time, even if it's
+
+[12:49] sealed. So it's not just simply a volatile loss. Like it's actually changing as it's sitting there. More so than drip. Right? I mean, drip is also changing, but that's like on the order of couple of hours, it's kept properly, right? I mean, radically changing versus espresso, which is like changing radically quickly, no? Yeah, yeah. I mean, in drip coffee, you have the biggest change is the stuff called chlorogenic acids that start breaking down and constitutes
+
+[13:13] that, like, bitter, nasty sour taste, you let's, like, your AirPods taste. Yeah, that's what Nastasia likes the most. So if you don't have that, she's not going to like it. I'm sorry. We, like, I can deliver a little bit of oxygen, like, oxidation, but that's about it. Yeah. So, yeah, Anastasia like prefer. Actually, that's weird. She likes really good wine. I was about to make a jug wine joke, but she actually likes really good wine. With milk and sugar? With milk and sugar. And remember, she, her 1st food job, I think, real food job was with Cesare Casella, who will, who would put ice cubes in Dom
+
+[13:44] Peringo, given the choice. And by the way, he can do whatever he wants because he's Cesare Casella. You know what I'm saying? Some people have earned the right with their palate over time to do whatever in the hell they want. You know what I mean? Okay, so you're essentially freeze drying, right? Yeah, but we do a bunch of other stuff to it, which is there some sort of patent involved here or is it a trade secret situation or what? It's more like a trade secret situation. Uh, I will mention this, uh, not knowing a coffee is notoriously difficult to capture as
+
+[14:13] a distillate. I don't know whether anyone out there listening knows that, but the aroma of coffee very hard to capture and keep in, especially in a non-alcoholic
+
+[14:22] situation, virtually impossible, to get a decent thing. And I think it's because so much of um, so much of the coffee character is in the, is in a larger molecular weight crap that's left behind in the cups. So would you agree with that? Yeah, we've actually been, like, one of the interesting parts of this working on this is that I get to geek out about stuff like
+
+[14:45] this. And you can suddenly capture some of the aroma,
+
+[14:49] but it does not, so yeah, it's true. Like a big part of it is sort of a heavier molecular waste that you just kind of,
+
+[14:57] they're heavy enough that you cannot extract them, like distill them out of there, which is really interesting. And sort of all the, like, the diminishions you get in the flavor. All right, so actually, this is what we'll do. Why don't we taste this coffee and then we'll we'll talk about the coffee thing and then after the break, we'll come back as though
+
+[15:15] it was the beginning of the show and I'll talk about the other stuff out of touch. Does that make sense? We'll stay with coffee. We're going to stay with coffee. Stay with coffee. No, no. I have stuff I have to do. I have questions I have to get to and I have also, you'll stay around and we'll talk about, okay, so let's taste it. How long is it? How instant is instant? It's sudden. It's very sudden. Oh, yeah, now, now, what's it? Sudden, by the way, whatever... You're really working with SpaceX? No. That was our April Fools joke. These cups aren't warm. Uh, enemies of quality all around us. Feel that, Stas. Feel that. No, I see it. Nastasia is frightened of cups that have like grit on the outside. Dirt grit. No, I think it's the dishwasher. You want me to lick it and find out? No. See whether it tastes like this. Why did you decide to start with espresso rather than drip coffee? Oh, what's up, good questions.com? It's a good question. I mean, it's literally only the concentration, really. Like, there's nothing intrinsically great about espresso. Just the fact that. There is nothing intrinsically great about espresso. What? I was kidding. I mean, well, I mean, so drip coffee would have a concentration of about one. 5%, like one. 5 to two. So it has 98% water, whereas espresso has roughly like 10% coffee solids and 90% water. So when you when you can only like basically dehydrate, some amount of stuff makes a lot more sense to
+
+[16:37] dehydrospers. Do you do you sell it in these tubes? Yes. How do they how many, how many, when you buy? You can choose it's like between 8 and 24 cups. Now, have you caught up with production? Because apparently you can't buy this stuff, right? Yeah, we're, like, the biggest issue has been producing enough. So we're now we're now really working on scaling up the pressure. Is that hot enough, that water? That should be good. It's not like boiling, you don't want to have a boiling. I'm hanging you this and then I will get this. So will the scale of, like, caught up in production and by end of October latest, I think. I think Nastasia likes dumping the coffee out. Let me take a look at it. My eyes are really bad for reasons I'll discuss later. Dave, do you want to take calls on this part of the show or wait till later? Yeah, let's take call, especially if they're related to... Wow, that was sudden. Can I use the sudden thing as a stirring device? Oh, Nastasia, why don't you make yours 1st instead of handing one to Paul? Oh, you did. What? How you doing? So what I'm doing now, I just have a brown powder in the bottom of a cup and pouring water and you get a cup of coffee. Which smells like coffee. Do we have a collar related to coffee or anything else? We have a collar. I dont know if it's related to coffee. Let's take it while we're... call her, you're on the air. Ask me any question about coffee along with whatever other question you were gonna ask. Okay, I have no questions about coffee. I'm sorry Don't drink coffee. Really? Wow. I like it in ice cream though. You're the opposite. I know you're the form about that, Dave. Yeah, you're the opposite of me. You know, exciting coffee is really awesome with ice cream. You just mix it and become super, super awesome. Do you work for the company or something? Anyway, so what's it called? Go ahead with your question while we're making the last cup of sudden coffee or last 2 cups. That's it. Sir. All right, yes. You guys are a little blurry there, but I'm going to give you my question here, which has to do with ice cream. By the way, this is Brian in New York. And, uh, my, my question has to do with making basil or any kind of herb ice cream because I've seen a bunch of different
+
+[18:34] recipes. I've tried a few. I can't figure out which is best. Um, some say heat up the base, uh, and then blend in your, uh, your
+
+[18:44] earth, others say just do a cold infusion with the base. Some say you a cold infusion and milk. Um, I'm wondering kind of what what the best uh best way to get the best flavor is. Um, without uh, getting any of those those off notes. Yeah, that's a good question. I can't remember if I've ever, like, how soon do you have to, how soon do you have to wait before you turn it and what's your
+
+[19:11] churning? What are you using to churn it? I mean, I don't I don't have any of the herbs on me right now. No, I mean, I don't mean that, but like, what kind of machine are you using? I tried it, but are you doing Paco? Is that what you're asking me how soon? No, no, no. What kind of machine are you using? Oh, what kind of, yeah, just one of those freeze in the bowl. uh kind of machines. Right. Okay. So here are the issues, right? If you wanted to not go nasty. Once it's frozen, it, the sad part is it probably will continue to go nasty because you're going to be
+
+[19:45] hypercontrated, hyperconcentrating the enzymes and whatever's left of the liquid phase, but it'll also happen. I don't know what'll win, whether the concentration will win or whether the reduced temperature is going to win in terms of making
+
+[19:57] it stay nice. I think that the correct answer is not going to be, um, is not going to be blanching
+
+[20:06] it because then you're not going to get any of the kind of fresh flavors that you want. If you were going to use something like a paco jet, I would just freeze the leaves whole and then paco jet it down, but you're not going to do that. Um, you could, uh, you could blend the herbs in, like, a, um, a little bit of, like, high proof ethanol and then use the high proof ethanol blended herbs in with the base, and that will, it will mess with your freezing point depression slightly, but the, the, um, I believe that the, um, alcohol should help, uh, you know,
+
+[20:44] denature of the polyphenol oxidase enzymes and a little bit of ascorbic acid, not enough to mess with your, uh, not enough to mess with your, um, milk would
+
+[20:54] be would be helpful in that as well. But I wish I had more personal experience working on it because basil ice cream is
+
+[21:00] the thing you see, so people must know how to do it. If anyone in the chat room, David, did I give me anything? Uh, one second. let me check. I'll see if anyone in the chat room chimes in with anything. Obviously, for just punch color without going brown, but it won't have fresh flavors, dried herbs,
+
+[21:14] might not like dried mint will stay green because the drying process gets rid of the
+
+[21:18] polyphenyl oxidase enzymes. Nothing in child, they're just talking about Starbucks instant coffee. Well, tell them to get on it and go to the chat room. And I'll think about it. I sure someone will call in or tweet me and tell me what the correct answer is and we'll read it out on the air next time if we can. Okay, great. So definitely not blanching. You're anti-blanch. I'm not anti-blanch unless I'm anti-blanch if you want the flavor of fresh basil. For that, you should read Harold McGee's section on pesto in the curious
+
+[21:46] cook, wherein he tries various different techniques for keeping pesto nice and green, one of which is blanching, which is
+
+[21:53] deemed poor. In terms of fear. I don't care about collar. I care about flavor. Well, um, yeah. But the problem is color and flavor are linked. The brown notes, the brown color is linked with oxidized flavor in those situations. Brown notes, yeah. Yeah, the, uh, which is where we were going with coffee. Anyway, I'm sure someone will tweet me the answer and we'll figure it out. Speaking of singing Broadway musicals, we'll get you the
+
+[22:27] answer, not this week, but we'll get you the answer. So, like, Broadway musical is the entire morning, this morning as I was getting ready with sun coffee. I was singing suddenly Seymour to myself. I don't know that Dave. Suddenly Seymour. You know that song? Paul, do you know that he loves musicals? You know that he's like a musical or I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's great. I forget her name. Little Shab of Horrors, Rick Moran is. Disappointing he wasn't in the in the recent Ghostbusters
+
+[22:56] reboot. Were you one of those anti Ghostbusters reboot people, Paul? You strike me as could either be one or not? I was not one. I was not anti. Not anti? Why would people so anti? I think it destroyed their childhoods? Women were anti? No, I think because women were playing the rules. Yes, the new Ghostbusters or all women, which destroys the childhoods of people who saw it growing up in which the original Ghostbusters were not
+
+[23:23] women in some way. Is that is that actual truth? Yes, that's what I've heard. Yes, Dave. Thank God Paul's here because you'd be like, I don't believe you. I didn't say that. I just didn't know I didn't know the answer. Well, every single living Ghostbuster was in that movie with the exception of Rick Moranis, who was like... No misogynist. Rick Moranis? For reals? Was he not in the movie because of the women in the movie? Oh, that's why I thought you had some actual information about Rick Moranis. You're like, he wasn't in the movie. Therefore, you hates women. That's the problem people working with Nastasi. You never know whether she is just like saying something that is actually backed up with information or whether she's just blowing smoke up
+
+[24:06] your... You never know. Never know. All right, so let's talk about this. What do you think, coffee man? Well, Nastasia likes it, but that is not a vote of confidence, my friend. It's got a lot more body than I would expect from an instant coffee.
+
+[24:21] Why is that I think it's a it's a variety of things. The, I think ideal flavor villains we find is a little higher concentration than for a regular filter coffee.
+
+[24:33] So instead of like one. from one. 5 it's closer to two, which just gives you a little more solids. But I think it's also, so originally I thought that it would be just like the same coffee that we use, but not so interesting version of it. And now I think it's more of a just a different kind of a representation or a different brewing method in a way. So you lose some of the acidity through the purses. Yeah, it's not a very acidic hit. It's also not very bitter. It's not very bitter. Yeah. So, I mean, what we try to do is get a coffee that's really sweet, is really balanced and like nicely sort of big bodied and low acidity and a little bitterness. Well, what's interesting is it almost tastes like an espresso profile, but as a drip, as a drip water balance. And the cool thing is that you can also drink it with higher concentration, like espresso style, if that's how you like it. you make us a 10% one? Sure. Heat up the water again though. What was the name of the of the actress? She was so awesome in Little Shop of Horse. In the movie? Yeah, she was still awesome. I don't remember the movie. I liked that. Anyway. Theatrical work. Well, of course you do. You, you know, born raised New Yorker, you know. Weaned at the theater. Okay, uh, so, uh, so Nastasio likes it, which, as I say, is not, by the way, Nastasio's brother, so like, it can be on the air. He could pull up a mic. I see, uh, him and his fiancé are sitting there and the wing is just staring into the glass. It's so weird. Your whole family lurkers, Nastasia, lurkers. So when do you think you're going to be up and running with production? We're, I mean, we're like old hands on deck working on it. where it's getting better all the time, and by early October, we should be at sort of a much, much better point. David, you a coffee man? Love coffee. Why didn't he? Why didn't you get a cup and try this stuff? Because I got to make the wheels turn here. Oh, now you have wheels in the sky keep on turning going through my head. By the way, don't know where I'm going to be tomorrow. By the way, Dave, it's Ellen Green. Oh, yeah. Anyway, okay, so, uh... You want to do a break and then come back with your... Yeah, come back. come back. Yeah, Dave will get us some coffee. Nastasia's brother will come in and we'll pretend like the show is starting again with whole new, whole new set of questions and answers. Okay, coming back with cookie issues.
+
+[27:01] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright crunchy pickles, vibrant
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+
+[28:17] And we're back. What's up, Stas? All right. Over the break, we tasted some espresso strength. Sudden coffee. was espresso strength. Obviously no crema, not in emulsion. You know what you need to sell, is you need to sell a little like a frothing device. So you can be like, you could do an espresso strength and then go, and like froth some air into it. You don't like that idea? No, personally, not a cremophon. Oh, in general. No, but why do you not like crema? Because you've tasted it separately and it's different constituent because it's coming out mainly at other part of the extraction, right? Is it you don't like, what is it you don't like about it? It's really bitter. Well, it is, but is that because of what, is that because that it is frothed or is that because of when it's happening during the shot? Have you actually tried frothing your product and does it taste bitter? So, what I think about a crema? The crema is basically a foam where you have basically like oils, proteins, and just like physical, like
+
+[29:14] unsolable parts of the coffee bean. And I think it's those, mainly those kind of bitter, unsoluble parts of the bean that are just so fine that they go through the metal metal filter that make it more bitter.
+
+[29:24] Right, but hear me out here. If you're looking at, if you're looking at, like, machine profile on Krema, right? The way that it used to be said was that lever machines produce a lot less crema, but have a lot better,
+
+[29:36] they have a lot. Some people like the flavor profile of lever machines better. And the reason is, is because they're pushing less water through at the end because the pressure is dropping as the spring goes down,
+
+[29:44] right? As a spring. Right. So you're getting less crema on that because you're pulling out less at the end. At the end is when that like last floating stuff and you're extracting that stuff out, right? And that's why the crema is bitter because that's where it's coming from. Whereas we all know that espresso has higher foaming capacity than regular
+
+[30:03] coffee when you're making regular drinks with it. So merely the fact that there is foam on top isn't necessarily mean that that foam is bitter. It's where the foam is coming from in an actual regular produced espresso shot, right? Or could be. Which I go back to my other question, have you actually tried foaming your product to see whether you like it? I actually haven't tried just like foaming the holding, but like I've tried shaking it and it doesn't sort of produce, like if you try making a frappe out of it, it
+
+[30:29] doesn't, doesn't, like, shake, like, film quite as, like, doesn't film the same way as Nescafe. Again, a Nescafe, like you've lost me. Yeah, but like, but like, in other words, like if I was to take this product, Nastasia's like, don't rank on my stuff. Don't rank on my garbage. Uh, like, but if you were to take, uh, if you were to take an espresso shot, right,
+
+[30:49] let it cool in a cup, take, you know, some sudden coffee to the
+
+[30:53] same, uh, the same extraction density, right? And then you were to add milk and shake with ice with the with the regular
+
+[31:01] espresso, foam appreciably better on the shake? Probably would. But that's also, so what we do after we brew the coffee. We, uh, in a way, do full trade, which literally reduces the amount of prima and remove some of those undissolved solids that personally I don't enjoy in the coffee and I,
+
+[31:19] like, we want to have removed. You could sell those to Dave. Right. Well, no, I actually like lever shots best. Like, like, when I've had side by side, same barista, same beans, uh, same grinder,
+
+[31:33] like same espresso machine corporation. That's actually when I say when I've had. It was one time. It was Vittorio Arduino. I had one of their levers versus their not and their lever machine. I was like, oh my god, I love this shot. Have you had pressure profiled? Yes. We could talk about that at the end of the show. We'll talk about the coffee. We'll talk about the coffee. You know that I built my own pressure profiler like years ago with I shunted it. I shunted out my pro con pump with a, with a ball valve and was able to profile pressure, but it sucked because I had to reach underneath my counter and then put my head up to look at the gauge to see where I was going, but I could, I could dial between 100% bypass, so 0 pressure and
+
+[32:14] all the way up to, um, 9 bar and then just go anywhere in between, but it was, it's real
+
+[32:19] touchy. Like throttling pressure with a ball valve like that is touchy because it's not linear anyways. How did it taste? Great. Like, like, one out of 8 shots, I was able to get like a pretty smooth ramp from, you know, like, uh, like full spring pressure, which it's been a while, but it's like, it's like
+
+[32:40] a 100 and like the, right when the spring releases is like a 100 and, I think, 50 PS, I don't know, in bar. And then it goes down to well below, or maybe less maybe 8.5 bar. don't know. Anyway, but it goes down to well below a normal thing at the end of the shot because obviously it goes down. So I was able to get decent shots that way. was just so much of a pain in the butt. And then I was going to try to build one with a servo that would do it. But then eventually, I didn't do it for many years and eventually it became like a thing. But now a lot of people, like I was talking to the Lamar Soco people, yesterday, in fact, and those guys were like, people are so worried about all these variables, they don't even control like the most important thing, which is the dose.
+
+[33:16] They don't even control the dose. And so they're like, all of this pressure profile stuff, whatever, great. He's like, the fact of the matter is, is that now temperature profile, everyone's got temperature profiles going
+
+[33:25] where like Ranchilio's new machine, they can do a temperature profile. In fact, one of their temperature profiles was they start it colder in the beginning and end hotter, which is the weirdest thing ever because you're like, intentionally producing a tart shot, right? So you start with your extraction at a low temperature, you're sucking out like a very acidic shot,
+
+[33:43] which, like the only people I know who make, like, yeah, it's not, it's like a, it's purposely aesthetic shot, but I guess some people like it, right? Kind of like, what do you what do you say about this? You were at the show, you saw this machine, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it doesn't make any sense. I don't really believe in the temperature profiling. I mean, it does make sense in the sense that if you have colder coffee in the beginning, you might, like, absorb more energy and you might want to have a higher temperature in the beginning, and then basically, like, ramp down. Yeah, but I wouldn't, ramping,
+
+[34:11] ramping... Oh, it doesn't make any sense to me. Like, it's not gonna, it's a different thing having like a sour or acidic, and that's only gonna make
+
+[34:18] you, like, sour, like very unpleasantly, like, like, tasting a citrus. Right, it's not gonna, it's not gonna make it like whiny or more Kenyan tasting. Definitely not. Yeah. Do you like that crap and espresso, by the way? Do you like those like African acidic whiny notes and espresso shots or no? I guess not. I'm tasting your coffee, so I guess not. Right. Well, so the thing is that so just an Ethiopian coffee called Picasso, and it is a lot more acidic in the beginning, and we're, I mean, we're still very early on, we're working on preserving more of
+
+[34:47] that acidity through the process, but we start with something that's kind of more acidic. So we have. Oh, because it gets blunted by the process. Yeah. So if you taste this against any other instant coffee, it's actually a lot more acidic than anything else, but it does not taste
+
+[35:01] that acidic compared to like a drip coffee. Right, right, right, right. And I mean, personally, I prefer more, I was kind of very sort of a city. profile, but now I prefer more like just a bit more balanced sweeter approach. All right, so since you're an espresso guy, Where are we? This is also something I was discussing with the lawn Mart Soca people. I thought we were going to talk about this after. one more second. Can't stop. I can't stop. I can't stop myself. Okay, gee, geez, okay. So where are we in the where are we in the espresso volume wars? Are we coming back up to normal shot volumes or are we still with these like skim cup crazinesses? I think we're coming back to like normal Williams, like one to 2
+
+[35:37] ratios, like one part, coffee grounds, 2 like 2 parts, coffee, the cups. So we would use something like 20 gram dose of gram coffee and like 40 grams of coffee in a cup. In like 2001, like people were like, I'm using 16 grams, and they're pulling like what would now be like a long shot, and now, and then
+
+[35:56] like, it's gone, but you're, she's coming somewhere in between, huh? Yeah, well, I mean, so, like, 10 years ago when I started eating coffee, it was, like, super straight out. So like using the same like one-to-one, like using a ton of coffee and then having 30 little coffee in the ground. Yeah, like, 06, 07, stuff like that. It was like, it was literally, yeah, they were filling triple baskets and then like, you know, I was like,
+
+[36:19] where's the where's the coffee? You know what I mean? It's like, which I mean, I think is really bad. Like what the most important thing in coffee is sort of the extraction, you know, which is how much stuff you extract out of the ground. And the more water you use, the higher extraction you're looking at because you have same amount of coffee, but more water to do the job. And so, at some point, like, a couple years ago, it went to the extreme, like, people using 20 grams coffee in, like, 60 grams in a cup, which in some ways can be very enjoyable.
+
+[36:49] It's a different type of a coffee, but I think now it's, it's somewhere around like the sort of closer to regular. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in my mind, I still make it more like, you would have gotten in 2001, because I guess, I don't know, that's what I like, but whatever. That's me. Okay, now hold on now. Off coffee for a minute. We can go back and coffee later. Dave, what happened to your face? Well, okay, I got many things. before we talk about what happened in my face. Should I do the face first? No, no, no, no. not going to do the face first. Let's let's take a now, let's take a minute. Really sad news. On Friday, Dorothy Can Hamilton, the founder of the French culinary institute, now the International Culinary
+
+[37:34] Center, died in a car accident in her beloved Nova Scotia. Uh, and I don't really know the particulars of it yet. I don't know because, you know, they just publicly announced it, I think, on Sunday night, I think, or something like that, right, Nastasia?
+
+[37:51] So, you know, Dorothy, uh, she was the only person in the car, uh, as far as I know, the only person killed in the car. She, um, founded the French culinary in like 1984, right? It was around the same year actually on food and cooking came out. And, you know, she was kind of the force behind a lot of what was good about culinary education in the United States for many, many
+
+[38:20] years. Uh, She uh, gave me my 1st real job in the in the food world. you know, when I was the director of culinary technology there for years. with Nastasia. And, uh, yeah, so... I, you know, it's not, she was not sick, it was not nothing. It was very terrible, terrible news. Uh, and my heart goes out to, um, to her family and to the whole community at the ICC. Um, Yeah, it was terrible news. So, Anyway. So I don't know, we should have done that right before the break, I guess, because now I don't want to talk about anything for a minute, but we should
+
+[39:03] have, or we should, and I never handle anything well because I'm a moron. But, um, Yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people have gone through that school. affects a lot of people. Most recently, she did the, she did the expo at Milan, the food expo at Milan. So just, you know, stayed, uh, super in it, super active, you know, one of the things I was there, she rested control away from
+
+[39:27] investors and got the school back. And yeah, she was just, uh, you know, She was
+
+[39:32] a, she was a force to be reckoned with. Dorothy, anyway. Terrible. Terrible. So, onto, uh, onto, how do you transition for that? onto what I was doing, uh, last week. I was in Catalonia last week, giving a talk at Alicia, the Alicia Foundation. you familiar with us? Paul, you familiar with this? Alicia is the cooking foundation. I think it was founded by Faran and the Elboli people, or it's founded by the Catalan government, and he helped out with it. But it's in the middle of this town. It's near a town called Navarklas because I can't pronounce the other one. The other town is something literally like fruity bags. It's like fruity bags, but it's in, it's in Catalan, so I don't even know how it's like fuid bags or something like this in fruity bags. And it's fruity bags. And it's, and, and I was there, and actually, interestingly, I was doing a demo for a bunch of, uh, olfactory
+
+[40:24] scientists, and I was using the actual centrifuge that was the 1st one that Faran had used. And by the way, not nearly as good as the one that we used to use
+
+[40:34] as the French culinary boom stars. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now, the flip side is he got his new. So, you know, he didn't have to clean all the rabies out of it like we did. You know, it wasn't sprayed with like CSI juice like ours was. But the, uh, also, I used the actual rotary evaporator that, uh, that the Rokas
+
+[40:54] used to do their oyster uh, distillate way back in the day. Uh no comment. No comment. It turns out that rotary evaporators need quite a bit of maintenance to have them work
+
+[41:05] properly and it wasn't set up like it was a pain. So, like, literally, I, and they know it. Like, they're like, you know, we don't, they don't really do that kind of work anymore,
+
+[41:14] Delisi, but they have all of the stuff left over. So I was like, okay, so I went to go use it because I was doing, and actually this fits into a question. There was someone who asked about not sweet honey a week ago. Uh, and uh, I commented that I can't remember whether I had done a honey distillate, but when I went there, I was supposed to mess with uh, olfaction, right? And when I used gymmic acid, gymmic acid is the, is the material that knocks out your sense of sweetness for about half
+
+[41:39] hour, and Nastasia's done it, you've done it, right, Paul, with me? You never have? Tastes terrible, tastes like, tastes like the bottom of a rodent cage. It's awful. But you swirl it around and then for like half hour, or more sometimes, you can't taste anything sweet. So white sugar tastes like sand. Uh, every, it just, it just knocks out everything. It's completely unpleasant, but it's, we use it to teach, um, kind of what sugar does to
+
+[42:04] texture, so you can just remove the sensation of sweetness, and it knocks out artificial sweeteners. It knocks out the effect of miraculous. So, you know, it ruins that party too. It knocks out. Brown sugar doesn't taste sweet. Things that smell sweet to you, but like candies, things that you associate with
+
+[42:22] sweetness. Don't taste sweet at all. What does brown sugar taste like? Sand with a little bit of a butterscotchy hit. But the melting sand. But honey still tastes sweet. And so I distilled honey there and served them honey desolate with none of the sugar and they all agree it tasted sweet. So there's something about honey that we perceive as sweet. That's not, that's olfaction based, that's not have anything to do with the sweet receptors because your sweet receptors are totally wiped out by, uh,
+
+[42:51] genenic acid. So that's going back to the question that Andrew asked last week. So anyway, so while I was there, I also did some oldies but goodies. I used to do it. I did a thing years and years ago called the cheese course where I would take wines. I would take like 3 sweet wines. I would take off the brandy on a rotary evaporator, and then reduce them down to about 60 or 70 bricks so that they were like a syrup that had never been heated, and then serve them both with cheeses
+
+[43:16] in an array of like, you know, array of toppings. And so anyway, so I did one of those cheese courses. So I had to evaporate the stuff down, and the rotary evaporator was a little bit leaky, so I couldn't get the stuff that down. But they had a vacuum oven. So I ripped the vacuum oven apart and like put a cold trap, built a coal trap on the output of the vacuum oven because it had a really good vacuum pump, then stuck the stuff in a vacuum bag and taped it to the interior, the cylinder, the vacuum
+
+[43:41] oven, and was able to get all of my product down to 70 bricks in the vacuum oven. And I was like, I had to go to a lunch. When the lunch was over, I had to go get the stuff out of the vacuum oven. And now all of Alicia is like all this glass. It's all glass everywhere. glass, walls, glass, doors, just glass, freaking glass everywhere. And like, I guess for like HVAC reasons, they staggered the door. So you have to go in one, and then you have to turn and go in another, and then the kitchen's all
+
+[44:09] glass, all glass. And so like this thing, I, I don't know, I thought it was a freaking door. And, uh, and when I walk, I walk fast, especially when I'm going to get something. I't run because you don't run in the kitchen, right? I walk fast. and boom, right into the glass, like right into the glass, like right on the point of my
+
+[44:29] forehead because when I walk, I walk with my head slightly down and slightly turn to one side. It's my kind of thinking mode style as you've seen that a 1000000 times, right? Slightly down and slightly to one side. And so I hit right above my left eyebrow. Like, like, boom. I didn't pass out, but I did one of those, like, I did one of those, like, sumo squats down, and it
+
+[44:49] was, and like, just stayed there for, like, frozen, like, in, like, uh, like, what? Like, you know, like, you can't see because you're on a radio, but like one of these. It does look like I've never seen you from this angle before. Dave has a very low center of balance. Yeah, yeah. You know, you get down because, you know, it's like the horse dance and karate, like, you know, like a hurricane's not
+
+[45:10] space able to blow you down. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, if you want stable, you go down, you go wide and you plant like this, you know what I mean? Anyhoo. So I was like, I'm going not to actually hit the floor when that happens. Yeah, because if you hit the floor, that's just amateur hour. You know what I mean? But so I'm there, and I'm squatting down, and this has never happened before, I was like, I could feel my head inflating. Like, that's how fast the edema was building up in my head. And so I was like, oh, man. And so I was also staring down on the ground waiting to see if I see the drip, drip, drip of blood. No blood because the glass so smooth. Glass so smooth. I tore a little bit, so there was a little bit of blood later, but inflated, you saw the original pictures,
+
+[45:54] Nastasi. It was like I had embedded a grapefruit under, not grapefruit,
+
+[45:59] orange under my eye socket. And then the next day it was kind of totally glued shut. But the entire conference heard it. So even the guy giving a talk at the time, like a room and a half
+
+[46:09] away was like, oh, man. What was that? You know what I mean? And like, and like the people standing near me were just like, ooh. You know what I mean? You know, look what you have and you don't really know what's going to happen. And when I went to the hospital, turns out, uh, Catalonian, uh, medical care vastly more efficient than US medical care. Vastly more efficient. I was in and out of that ER in like an hour and 10 minutes, like on the dot. Uh, and, uh, we, you know, we ended up all laughing because I didn't break any bones and uh, anything. And, uh, I was lucky at him. I nose. I'd just been to a talk the day before where the guy mentioned that if you break your nose in the wrong
+
+[46:50] way, It shears all the nerves from your olfactory nerves into your skin, and then you lose your sense of smell. So I was like, oh, leave it not my mouth. And so I'm there and the guy, I have like, I have
+
+[47:00] Chef Jame, the chef from Alicia, who has brought me to the emergency room doing the translating, and he says, the doctor says there is no cure for loss of dignity.
+
+[47:09] And then like the 1st day when I went back, right, I just had my kind of like elephant man face rocking it, you know what I mean?
+
+[47:19] And people were just like not eating as much as they should have been eating. And like, you know,
+
+[47:23] like, you know, again, this is radio, but this look. Across the table for me. So then I started wearing sunglasses and the next day, even though I literally looked worse with this big giant pussy weeping,
+
+[47:36] like I blob, people were like, you look so much better today. So I was like, it turns out when you mess your face up, people like it when you wear sunglasses. That's just the truth. That's why blind people wear sunglasses. I don't know Maybe. Anyway. So that's what that's what happened to me. Okay. Um, anything, I feel like other things have happened. I feel like we've had. Oh, hey, Paul, Paul asked me before, because Paul also, did you ever end up giving your Breville induction unit
+
+[48:02] back or did I told you? Why the hell would you do that? I told him that you were going to steal that. No. Anyway, conscience weighed on me. I gave it back. For real. All right. Oh, by the way, Paul, for those of you that don't know, Paul is like Mr. Drone. Would you say you're Mr. Drone, or more like Captain Drone, or like Admiral Drone? Are you more of a naval drone? Mr. Drone Jr. Mr. Drone Jr. He has like a collection of drones. He could he could take over a small village with his drones. have several drones. So I, uh... Are you on board with Dave's? I haven't told him. I about to tell him. Really? My worst my meanest idea of all time. So I'm at I'm at Governor's Island a couple weeks ago. And I see this kid flying a kite. Right? Now, is there anything more oldie timey, awesome America? Everyone dreams that their kid is gonna do running in a field with the grass, flying a kite, right? And I was like, what if you just sharpened the props on a drone, and you were on the other side of the hill, and you were just like, I just cut the kite. Just cut the kite. wouldn't that be the worst thing ever? That would be the worst thing ever. Worst thing ever. Let's do it No, I can't. Like, the thing is, is like, it's the kind of thing that you would want to do so you could see the look on the kid's face and then press a button and rewind it and never have it happen to the
+
+[49:14] kid, because you don't actually want the kid to, like, lose their kite. And Stas was like, the kid's flying a kite because his dad is making him fry the freaking kite. Kid doesn't want to fly the freaking kite. Yeah, that's true. Nastasia. Do you not like flying Kai nostasia? Not really. Do you? She had a bit of problems with tangling kites. Ooh, you're a kite tangler, huh? Were you trying to do those stunt kites? Stunt kites don't work. Stunt kites are sad. Why are stunkites sad? I need a friend to do stunk kites, don't you? Oh, and neither of us had those growing up? Yes. Finally, after all these years, we shared a moment. This is the first time we have ever shared a moment together for any reason. So on back to the induction burner, I found another good use for accurate induction burners. Ready for it? Rue. Gumbo. Gumbo Rue. Dark Rue. Because, like, otherwise, you know, like, you have Alton Brown, but you can't put it in the oven full, like, an hour. Who wants to do that? If you have an accurate induction, you can just make a roux right on the thing. Like stir it once every never. It doesn't ever burn. What do you think? Good application, Paul? Sounds very good. Do you like Roo? Do you like gumbo? I love Ru. You don't like gumbo? I love gumbo. Okay. I was about to lose it for a minute. I was like, what? Okay, so, uh, have, like, 3 minutes. Okay, Dave, what's happening with your bar? Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, good one, Paul. So this has turned into like a very different cooking issues in normal. So on October 15th... We're here today with Dave. Yeah, that's some questions. On October 15th, we'll be Booker and Dax, the current Booker
+
+[50:50] index bars last service. So Sambar is going to close temporarily and they're going to remodel. And when they're done remodeling, they will have taken the booker in Dax space and absorb it, Java the Hut style into the renovated sambar, so there will be no place for us. It's sad because... There was nothing wrong with the bar. The bar worked fine. You know what I mean? Like, uh, but we're gonna we're hopefully gonna reopen soon. I have no date as yet planned because it's all part of negotiations that are ongoing that I can't really discuss, but there's, I'm, I definitely plan on reopening, uh, reopening a
+
+[51:30] booker index as soon as, uh, I can because I enjoyed. I enjoyed it. Bigger and better. Uh, I would aim for smaller and worse. But it's always kind of my goal is like smaller and worse, but, you know, if I have to go bigger and better. Like if smaller and worse is not an option, then I, yeah, bigger and better. You should trademark, though, while you can. Smaller and worse. That's like when I when I walk around this city, I'm like, damn, like slow and stupid wins the race. If, like, if the people around me are any indication, slow and stupid wins the race. Yeah, because it's like, honestly, like, like that whole hair and tortoise thing is such garbage, right? Like, 1st of all, like fast and steady wins the freaking race. fast and steady. You got like 2 minutes for this ramp, by the way. All right, well, no, I'm not I'm not even going to get into it. It's like, I hate all of those, all of those things like, the airport stuff. Which airport stuff? Just going through customs. What's the deal with airport food? Oh, oh, oh, no. I had really good... I was so kind of, you know, I had no idea because I hadn't heard about Dorothy, so I wasn't like depressed about that at that
+
+[52:29] point. But, like, my eye was inflated, like, a free game baseball. I have to fly in cattle class back from the thing. So I'm in the airport and I see this like awesome like Hamon, like in the thing. And normally I'm like, I can't take that back to
+
+[52:42] the, to the US. I'm like, wait, I'm just going to buy some really expensive freaking ham and I'm going to eat it on the freaking plane. All by myself. Now you have another song going through my head. That's Daz's favorite. You like that one? I heard you sing it and I heard it like vaguely. But anyway, so yeah, so I bought I bought that and the lady was like, you can't take this back to the US. And I'm like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna eat it. And she was like, oh, nice. I didn't say it. You know, I was like, potacle mint. And then I walked out. You know what I mean? I put my sunglasses on. All right, hold on, on. One minute, Dave. Oh my god. Wait. So we had a question on rice, and I don't have time to get to Quinn's question on rice. Um, Quinn asked me about, he was he or she. I don't know. do you think? I thought it was she. So she was cooking rice and had a problem where the rice at the bottom of the pot was mushy compared to the rice at the
+
+[53:31] top, rice at the top. So I want to answer a question, and I had about 10 or 15 minutes of rice information
+
+[53:38] to like start spewing in a ramp, but I don't have the time to do it. So what I want from you, I'll spew that stuff, including the awesome article I read, the impact of pre-soaking on the flavor of cooked rice by ET
+
+[53:49] champagne, best author name ever, ET champagne, writing about the flavor. Interestingly, the answer is that pre-soaking rice, although we do it, seem to have a negative flavor impact according to this document. So you should read that another document I produced for you was the formation of cracks in rice during
+
+[54:05] whetting. But I need some more information from you, Quinn. What kind of rice are you cooking? For instance, I want to know exactly what kind? So some rice is harder to cook without the bottom going mushy than others, like
+
+[54:16] certain like jasmine rice. I need to know what kind of rice you're cooking. And I need to know what quantities you're cooking because you might just need to move to a wider pan because a lot of times when rice is mushy on the bottom and not on the top, the issue
+
+[54:26] is, is that your depth of rice is too high for the cooking method that you've employed. So send me back some more information on what kind of rice you're doing, what quantities, what size
+
+[54:34] pot, and we'll tackle your question next week on cooking issues.
+
+[54:45] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadioNetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[54:55] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio.
+
+[55:02] You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. HeritageRadio Network as a nonprofit organization, to donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling
+
+[0:09] in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, talk space can help. TalkSpace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access
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+[0:25] anytime anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a 1st
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+[0:51] talkspace.com. match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkSpace.com. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hello, everybody. This is Jerobi from a tribe called Quest slash Eats Rhymes in Life, and you're here listening to Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:26] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookies. It is coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like 12 to like 1245 or one. Ah, November's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn, joined as usual with Nastasia Hammer Lopez. How you doing, sis? Good. Good. Got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? Good. Yeah? And special guest today. We have Ariel Johnson from formerly of, where'd you go originally? You went to Harvard originally, NYU originally. NYU originally, where you knew I met you 1st there, right, when you were with Ken Kersh? Yeah, that was like 9 years ago. Right. And then you then you moved on to UC Davis, where you did your your doctoral work on cocktail bitters. Yes, among fermentations and flavor chemistry. And still and stole me some data from, or did stole me some time on her GC mass spec machine to take a look at what the
+
+[2:15] Sears all does to me, which is very helpful. Then did a stint at uh, mad over there in uh, Nomaville in the in the Denmark, right? Yep. Recently got back from that and is now some sort of like, what do they call it? Like, what's the title over there at the MIT? Oh, a director's fellow at the media lab? Right, but like more of the quantitative side of the media lab, right? Yeah, the like science-y. So not decide where you say that my refrigerator is going to call me on a Thursday and take me to the movies on a Friday and then pick up lettuce for me on a Monday.
+
+[2:50] I mean, only if we're like trying to optimize the flavor of that lettuce as well. Are they still doing that? Oh yeah. Why hasn't that happened already? Like, why can't, why can't my refrigerator ask me out on a date or babysit my kids for me and then get me lettuce?
+
+[3:03] Like, wasn't that the dream? I mean, I think that was the dream, but, like, I mean, some of what you're seeing now with, like,
+
+[3:10] nests and other of these, like... Nest keeps my house warm or cold. Yeah, but like, if the, if the, like, database goes offline, then you're, then
+
+[3:20] you're, well, no, reverse. It reverts to a normal thermostat. Yeah. So I think I think you could have a talking refrigerator, but maybe they're applying more things to the back end right now.
+
+[3:30] Nastasia, do you want your refrigerator to talk to you? I would just like a full-size fridge. That's all I want. Wow. See, you know what I love about Nastasia? Small baby steps. Well, because why solve a like social problem with a technological solution? Well, I mean, certain technologies. Natasha's problem is clearly just needing a larger fridge. Like if I could, yeah, but like, there are certain problems that I would like to solve. Like, for instance, if I never had to shave again, it would be awesome without
+
+[3:56] having to, yeah, but that looks, I look strange, right? Why would it look laser in your face? Do you only want to understand that, Nastasia? Not face. Ooh, you know people that have lasered their down theres? Yeah. Yeah, that's like a normal. Remember, I grew up in the 70s. Like, I'm the, you know, the last of a, the last of a generation.
+
+[4:13] So you would like a faithful lizard that perfectly optimizes, like, two-day stubble amounts of scruff? I wouldn't mind, mean, like, look, once you're past the point of trying to have any sort of like, I can grow hair, therefore, I'm manly, or I need to get into a club, and I'm not 21, which, you know, by the way, I
+
+[4:34] couldn't when I was, you know, when I was, you know, 20, 18, 1920, I could not grow facial hair like I can now. And so therefore, you know, it was no use to me then and now it's no use to me anymore. I just assume go smooth faced. I mean, not like baby. I don't want a baby face, but like, I don't know. What do you guys think? Are you pro, like, what's your stubble feeling? Like for me, it's just laziness. How do you, how do you like? I have sub on my legs. What do you feel about dudes with stubble? Would you prefer totally smooth face or not? Don't care. I don't really have a strong preference. Anyway, that's a technological solution that if it was, it would be weird, though, for me to go laser my face. I mean, it wouldn't be the weirdest thing you've ever done by a long shot. No, not be the weirdest thing I've ever done, but it would be like a weird thing. But if it was simple. You know? I don't know. Like a like a pill that you take? Like if my refrigerator can shave for me. Right. So what's the dumbest thing? You can't say this. you can't. So like, what about, like, what are the what's the current MIT media labs thoughts on 3D printing and food? You know how I feel about it? Um, no one's actually brought it up to me there. So so far we've dodged that bullet. I am not a fan of 3D printing and food. I think it's kind of senseless. Yeah, yeah, but don't people up there love that kind of stuff? They love 3D printing for like prototyping. Who doesn't? That's just a good idea. But, um, there's enough like vending machines in the media lab that they have not yet that I've
+
+[6:01] seen tried to 3D print their food as well. Are they the kind of people that still like try to like run all the vending machines from their Twitter account? Like, what's it like over there? Well, there's this amazing, uh, like Slack connected webcam called the food cam. So if you have like leftover food, you put it in a particular place and hit a button and then the entire lab gets a blast with a photo of that food. But why would they do that? For free food. Oh I see. Grad students do. You know who we love that? Nastasia is the queen of please take my half eaten food. Does that mean that like... This is ideal for that. You just put it in a place and then someone gets a notification and comes and gets it. Nastasi, you should get, you should go work there. Like, if Nastasia, I've seen Nastasia on more than 4 occasions, attempt to give mangled sandwiches to homeless people. She's always failed. Nobody turns out nobody wants a mango sandwich. It just goes to show Nastasia how hard up the MIT media grad students are. If they're willing to pound a half mangled sandwich
+
+[7:03] with like literally like, you know how when you pick up a sandwich that's mushy and you get those fingerprints in the half that you have from trying to squish it and
+
+[7:09] then trying to control it so that the stuff doesn't slip out of the back while you're eating in the front? If you can pick up somebody's sandwich that that has happened
+
+[7:17] to and start eating it, like that's a new level. Well, I think, I think, I think with the, with the food camp, it becomes the sort of like competitive thing of like how many, how much of my calories, like what percentage can I get just from free food?
+
+[7:31] So it becomes like a point of pride that you don't pay for anything. You just eat what is there? These are people in MIT, right? Yeah, these are like students, grad students, engineers. My point is, is that they should have, like, they have, apparently, the brains. They shouldn't be like Nastasia and I trying to get like the cheapest, freest stuff. They should just like become the new overlords of the tech world instead with that energy. Well, I think that comes a little later for, I thought everyone, I thought all the overlords of the tech industry were like 20. They're like 25. don't know. But what do I know? Old man. Old man blues. All right. Well, and they save time becoming that way by eating free food. I think, might be their rationale. They literally think it's faster to go on their phone. Find food. Go to where the food is, consume the food, tweet to their buddies at 8, rather than just
+
+[8:24] hit, send me a freaking pizza. Well, and it's free. I don't know. I'm just saying I feel that the youth is wasted on the dumb. I think is where it is. This doesn't make sense to me. Have you eaten this free food? Mm, I've eaten donuts from the food count? The one that's not donut. A donut is like Nastasi. I would eat a donut that was left over in a box of donuts. That's not the same thing. Would you eat the half eaten donut? No. No. Are people kind? Do they break the food in half or do they slice it or do they mangle it? No, I'm not sure. It sounds like we'll have to have an experiment where we put out food of
+
+[9:03] different... Different degrees of manlitude and keep track of how much of it gets taken and how long it takes for each piece to get taken. Right. I think the best would be like, if there's other types of food particles near it, and a fork stuck in it. Well, I mean, also, bear in mind, there's a lot of like 20-year-old dudes around, so the, the, like daring each other to eat something gross factor can't be discounted.
+
+[9:28] Are people over there just high all the time? Not that I've seen, but, um, anyway. All right. So, uh, a thank you out to WePop soupy pot, who, uh, you know, one of the founders of the Nomaku, uh, Jack
+
+[9:41] Shram. Did I already say this last week? Jack Shram, uh, our uh, head bartender. Although, by the way, speaking of head bartender, as I said, Booker and Dax's last day of business in the current incarnation will be on October the 15th, so of 2016, so you should go check it out if you want to get your Booker
+
+[9:57] index style drinks on prior to October 15th, because no date has yet been announced when we will open another one. Yeah. Anyway. So Jack Schram, our head bartender, was in Thailand, saw Wipop, one of the founders and creators of the Nomiku, which did not win best new device, our best technology thing at the Taste Talk Awards, but he's in good losing company because
+
+[10:18] Museum of Food and Drink. We also lost yesterday. Uh, the CIA, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me because, I mean, the CIA, not the, you know,
+
+[10:26] the, the culinary institute of the arts, they, um, they're so much bigger and like older than we are. So it's like even like to be in the category is like, that's great, but I mean, how the heck are we going to beat out the CIA for best, like, food cultural institution. Like, how the hell are we gonna do that? You know what I mean? Does that make any sense? Makes no sense. Or southern food ways alliance was in there. Anyway, so we pop, like, you know, for those of you that know me a long time personally, because I don't think I talk about it on the air. I have this obsession with cleared and stained animals. You know what that is? Yeah, so like for those of you that don't know what you do is people also call it something stupid, like diaphanizing or something dumb word like that, but clear it and
+
+[11:04] stain. What you do is you take typically a small animal, like a fish, a
+
+[11:07] rat, or a frog or something like this. And you soak it in potassium hydroxide, which is a very strong base, and that denatures a bunch of the proteins and softens it up and basically renders the entire animal transparent.
+
+[11:20] totally transparent. You then soak the animal in dyes, and the different dyes, like, uh, like, um, there's a
+
+[11:29] blue, which is the blue, they use in, uh, in, uh, slide standing. There's a lizard in... Crimson.
+
+[11:36] Yeah. They use that one and they use one of the blues. Like, uh, bromfinal blue. I don't know, one of the blues. That's for a pH indicator. I don't know. Yeah, no, there's several blues. They use one of the blues. And they soak them and then releash them out and the different dyes have preferential affinities for different tissues.
+
+[11:51] And so they can soak them into, for instance, the bones or the nervous
+
+[11:55] system, and then leach them back out. So you have the transparent animal with the color of the bones and the color of
+
+[12:00] the, and I freaking just love these things. So we pop sent one back encased in acrylic, this little, this little fish. But the problem is, it's technically very difficult to do it on really large specimens because like a diffusion. I don't, I guess, I guess the outside turns to total mush before the inside is totally done or maybe you can't lead stuff out fast enough because I've always had this dream in like a, in like a teaching butchery,
+
+[12:25] like especially fish butchery, because it's like hard to totally visualize where all the bones are in a fish, to just have a completely like cleared and
+
+[12:32] stained like striper. That'd be amazing. Yeah, you know what I mean? like full-size striper. I mean, do you think you could like perfuse it the way they do when they're like embalming corpses? Well, when you're bombing a corpse, right? You're not, uh, the problem is is that as you're doing it, you're destroying, you're not destroying, but you're reducing the structural integrity of the animal,
+
+[12:50] right? So, like, let's say you were gonna perfuse it. Like, I don't know whether this stuff would collapse. or whether or not. I mean, but it's an interesting idea. I just think nobody's ever attempted big, big animals as far as I know. Like, you know, the ultimate would be, like, the cleared and stained, like, cow. you could show, uh, like, you know, like 3D butchery on. Has anyone done the 3D cow butcher program yet that you know of? Not that I know of, but I think there should be. You know, an app for that? Yeah, there should be an app for that. I wanted to, because all you need is like, you need to just scan the cow. I'm sure this has happened, scan the cow and then just reassemble. You have a 3D cow, and then you take, like, you know, a knife and you just make your, do your online butchery of the cow. It's not the same as real butchery because real butchery involves like moving the meat around to get to the right bones. Maybe you could build like a haptic feedback. Knife. That's just that's just crazy. Like the new iPhone 7. No, the thing is, is like disconcerting. You would have to, no, you would have to, because you would have to, like, have scans of all the confirmations of the meat as it was peeling away.
+
+[13:53] I mean, like real butchery requires the manipulation of the meat as it comes off the bill, but strictly as a
+
+[13:59] sectioning, It would be interesting to be able to like fully section it out. You know what I wanted? Nastasia and I talked about this a while ago. One of the I wanted to make 3D toys for the museum. Like, imagine like little pigs and cows that are magnetic, and you pull them apart at the, at the meat
+
+[14:13] boundaries to buy it. I have something like that. Yeah, I got in in Japan. It's a bonito that will disassemble with Velcro so you can see where the different loins for Katsuobushi come from on the fish. for chefs or for kids? I'm not sure. You know, it's a little expensive for a kid's toy. Well, yeah, as most Japanese things are. Like Masono once made a, and they might still make it. They make a child's chef knife, which is basically a
+
+[14:39] Masono where they just took the front tip off of it. Like, literally, it's like school scissors for chef knives. like with the, but, slice the, slice the hell out of your finger, which is what your kid's gonna do. Your kid, I mean, like, it's interesting. like, learn the hard way and then don't do it again with a Masono? I mean, it's like, like, to me, it's like this is like, you know, Nastasia and I might think this way. It's like, okay, they're not going to stab my eye because it doesn't have a point on it anymore. But what's the 1st thing a kid does when they when they when they take a knife. They put their fingers flat. They don't, like, they don't roll their hands and they don't necessarily look at what they're doing. So it's like, I mean, I would doubt that the average 1st injury that a kid gets is stabbing
+
+[15:26] their their brother or sister's eye with a knife. I would imagine a kid's 1st injury is coming straight down onto a finger. Yeah, I mean, does it come with a fingertip reattachment kit? No, it should like it should come with those cutproof kind of gloves. But then how how the heck, those things are useless to me. Like, if you're in like large scale butchery where you don't need like a lot of like dexterity with your left, let's assume you're right handed.
+
+[15:49] If you don't need a lot of dexterity with your left, or if you're like really in guts and goop with your right and you don't need like, like, yeah, you could hold a big, like, a big freaking knife with one of those things and you don't need that much kind of, like, feedback in your
+
+[16:03] hand, but how the hell are you gonna, like, like, do fine work with those cut resistant gloves on? Like fine work. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's like the trade-off. And with little kid fingers? Little kid fingers inside of those cut resistant gloves? How the hell are they gonna learn properly with? Well, they need like a thinner space age polymer. Kids need to come with extra hands. Well, yeah. It's like when kids do really gross things. you wish you could just pop their hands off? and put on. Yeah, put fresh hands on. I'm like, those hands are no good anymore. I've seen my kids fall, like, in the street, like, like, down where
+
+[16:41] Nastasia and I used to work, and we would just want to, like, we wish we could just unzip them and just put a whole fresh them on the outside, because this is, like, the idea of cleaning off all that garbage is
+
+[16:50] just, catch a really molt like snakes. That's true. Or lobsters. Well, yeah, lobster is gross. Lobsters have to starve themselves and shrink out of their shell, break through the
+
+[17:03] carapace and come up. That's why they don't taste as good right after they should. That would be less ideal for children then. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. I think so. Have you ever had one of those high-pressure d- shelled lobsters? No. You know about this, right? If you put the, if you kill a lobster with like the super high pressure pasteurization thing, apparently you can just
+
+[17:23] like, like remove them from the shell. They just pop out? I guess. I don't know, like, this is what, like, the modernist cuisine, I think, had a picture of them. Like the whole lobster, it's just the meat completely articulated, but with no shell. I thought maybe they had some intern that had to like pick every piece of meat out with tweezers and then sew it back together. That sounds like a Nathan Mirville thing to do, but I don't think that's what they did. Maybe someone in the chat room will know. The, uh, speaking of shells, was I mentioning
+
+[17:51] this? I was doing some tests of pressure cooking eggs and vinegar. Okay. So obviously it decalcifies the shell and vinegarizes the egg. But I haven't had 100% success. I've had marginal success. How do you define marginal success? Well, I did it with just vinegar. And the eggs were quite hard. I mean, like quite hard coming out. like quite hard. Um, good, a little bit of that gross calcium taste had penetrated the actual egg, but the, the, the shells were after an hour and 15 or an hour and 20 and the pressure, the shells were completely peelable
+
+[18:28] offable. They were actually, interestingly, there was still some Maillard on the, um, on the egg, which leads me to believe
+
+[18:36] that uh, the vinegar hadn't penetrated to dealkalize the white
+
+[18:42] until like fairly late in the game. Like maybe it cracked and penetrated. I don't know. The 2nd time I tried to make flash, you like mustard eggs? explain? Stas. you have mustard eggs? So you take like vinegar and mustard. Some people use mustard powder, some people just squeeze mustard into it, and other spices, like pickling spices, like coriander, and, you know,
+
+[19:02] alliums and crap, and you throw hard boiled eggs into it, and you just let it
+
+[19:06] sit, and they turn yellow and vinegary. It like a pickled egg. Oh, like a beet pickled egg, but not with beets. With mustard. And super tasty. It is, they have a little sugar too, because if you were to give me any day of the week, you say, here, have this thing that tastes like beets or here, have this thing that tastes like mustard,
+
+[19:25] Nastasi, which one do you choose? Mustard. Absolutely, mustard. Absolutely mustard. Dave, would you ever choose a beat over a mustard? Watch out. no not in this case. Yeah. Because, like... I love beats, though. Really? Yeah. You don't like beets? I like beets. But I mean, you say I like beets means like I really like beets. Like, do you like playing in dirt? I don't think that's a fair analogy. No. Was this a person? I mean it's like literally the same flavor molecule, yeah. Yeah, like the Jazmin. Jazmin, the flavor compound from dirt,
+
+[20:03] which by the way, Harold McGee says that there's a museum. He went to a micro museum in Holland. Have you been to this? I've heard of it but I haven't been to it. Yeah, he said they have a bacterial culture that makes pure jazzmine. So it's open. Yeah, it's like just bacteria, but it smells like dirt. But anyway, that same thing is in beets and tilapia. So in beets, we learn to like it because it's characteristic of beets, but if that smell bothers you in other things, then it can bother you in beets. is mostly concentrated near the surface. That I don't know. That's an interesting question Like, if you, like, like, I, well, Saxi and I have similar beat problems. And it's mainly with when they don't peel them freaking things, right? When they undercook them or they don't peel them, that's when it's the biggest problem for us. But like flavor wise or texture wise? Well, actually, I don't mind a crunchy beet. I like beets in vinegar, but I would guess that the vinegar in the same way that helps make tilapia not taste
+
+[20:58] like, well, it's different, right? That's a TMA, whatever it is, trimethylamine, right? With the, uh, The beets and vinegar, does the acid also knock down the
+
+[21:08] jasmine or have you perceived the jasmine less? Mm, I mean, it's so pungent that it's possible. You're just not experiencing... other flavors much compared to acetic acid. I mean, it's possible that it could, like, protonate something and then, like, reduce its volatility. I would have to look this up and follow up with you on it. Yeah, do that please. My favorite beat is the par dehydrated roasted beet. Nice. Those are good. I like those. Yeah, we had like a beat just kind of like that. Yeah, I don't know who came up with that technique. I 1st had it. I 1st had it like 4 years ago or something like this. I know that a couple people were doing it. Mike Sherin was the guy that made it 1st for me. I think ideas in food did it. People did it. You know, I'm talking about that technique, right? They're like soft and chewy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. chewy beets. Chewy beets. Yeah, we had a dish like that for a while. Did you like it? It was super good. Yeah. Delicious. What kind of beach did they grow up there? Do you have to have some local beat? Yeah, they are local beats. We get a lot of these, like, elongated beets. I'm looking at Nastasia's face, her reaction to elongated beef. Dirty elongated beats. Sounds interesting. No, she's just lying. She's making crap up. All right. How do we talk about this? Why are we talking about this? I haven't wanted that myself. I forget. Call on your questions. 2718-497-2128. 718-497-2128, especially any questions you have about aroma chemistry, and or cocktail bitters chemistry, and or MIT media lab, shenanigans, or whatever else. Oh, speaking of which, uh, shenanigans, we're going on Thursday to taste the waters at Saratoga.
+
+[22:51] I'm excited about that. I've been reading a lot about the watch. So for those of you that don't know, Saratoga is a town in New York, where the millionaires used to go in the 1800s, and it remained a very popular spa resort. It was one of the 1st spa resorts based on waters, water in the United States, not the 1st, as they claim, not the first, but one of the
+
+[23:12] first, and remained popular until very recently. Actually, interesting. It didn't start necessarily as like a water cure, as a hydro, as a hydro, whatever they call
+
+[23:21] it, apathy, like. Yeah, didn't start as one of those. It started as just people believe in the curative nature of water, but it was started before the hardcore temperance movement. But like this part of those areas did get taken over by some temperance cruise, but they had full booze and all
+
+[23:36] that. And then later, horse racing, and theoretically they ended the potato chip. I guess when we were there, we should have some potato chips. Do you believe that garbage? They're like, we invented the potato chip. That is freaking nonsense. That is nonsense. Potatoes have been around so freaking long. You're telling me that nobody anywhere in the rest of the freaking world was like, you know what would happen if I cut these freaking things thin and then fried them until the water was
+
+[23:58] gone? You think that some moron in freaking Saratoga was the 1st person to ever freaking do that? I got that very much. I highly doubt that. seems statistically improbable. Yes. And another thing, speaking of the same thing, same thing. It's like, look, I, I, here's what I can, here's it. I wish people would never attribute things to, like, things like that that are just dishes to a particular
+
+[24:23] era a particular time. What they should say instead is X, Y, or Z is popular because of X, Y, or Z, right? So the potato chip became a thing in the United States because of what they did in Saratoga. makes sense. That seems viable. That's a reasonable thing to say, an interesting in and of itself. Boom. Right. Like, here's another one. Arnold Palmer, who just passed, just died. Do you like pastor just dead? Dead. So I like Stas. Stas? Right to the point. Yeah. Pass to what? Past where? Past what? Pass the piece. He's dead. Right? You're like, anyway, so Arnold Palmer was like 87, died. And, uh, my wife pointed out that, uh, they asked me once about the Arnold Palmer for that 30, 30, what's it called? 30 for 30, the ESPN thing, 30 for 30. Anyway, I was like, he clearly. Yeah, me too. He clearly not the 1st person to mix iced tea and lemonade. Like, clearly, these are 2 beverages that you see next to each other on
+
+[25:22] a kind of on a constant basis. It's non-alcoholic, like name. Well, and if you put like lemon into sweet tea, you're already like 60% of the way there. You are absolutely correct. And if you have ever been to the South, like sweet tea, like coming out your freaking ears, you know what I mean? You like that stuff? Um, there's a time and a place for it. I hate this stuff. But then in lemonade and then like, you know, whatever. But undoubtedly people drink a lot of it now because of Arnold Palmer, which is a more interesting story. Thank you for that, Arnold Palmer. Yes, thank you for that. I don't know anything about golf. Nor do I. Would you ever play golf in Assassin? Okay. I'm with you on this, but what is it that you don't like about the golf? waiting for people. So you're already assuming that you're going to be faster than everyone else? I mean, I don't like mini golf, so... Oh, okay, look, mini golf is an entirely different thing. Like mini golf, like. You typically can't drink during mini golf either. Really? Not that I know of. So you're saying this is kid friendly. So you're saying this is a niche that has not been filled? The adult mini golf. Hmm, I think you might be onto something, Booker and Dex? I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. The only mini golf that, you know, the last time I saw mini golf was on Billy
+
+[26:40] Madison, and he definitely looked like he was drinking when he was beating the crap out of that clown. Okay, let's take some questions here. Hello, cooking issue squad. Is there an ideal way to cook long grain rice? And I didn't, we didn't get any follow-up from them, right, on the, from Quinn on the rice stuff, so I'm going to do the best I can. Is there any ideal way to cook long grain rice. So the texture doesn't turn out so clumpy or mushy. I'm aiming for something light and fluffy. See, that's the thing. Everyone's aiming for light and fluffy. No one's ever like, I want to make a I want to make a congee, I'm a paste this sucker out, and I turn it into a paste. Maybe they should want to. You like I like a rice paste. I like a good congee. I love a congee. Although you wouldn't use that that kind of rice. No, but I like, but also, remember, like, long grain, like, laborrima style, which not
+
+[27:24] really means its own variety of rice, but, like, they break easily. So there used to be a whole cuisine based on brokens. You know, and like the idea of the broken rice grain is, you like light and fluffy, though, right, Stas? Yeah. Do you do you like, I know that your favorite is like Italian style rice, right? Isn't that? But like, what's your favorite? How do you like your rice best? Light and fluffy. But, like, white, like... Like, just plain... Oh, you like jasmine? I love jasmine. Can I ask what is Italian style rice? Actually, risotto. Oh. When
+
+[28:00] you have regular white rice, does it need to be like as hard in the center as you like your risotto? No. So you just like plain, like, rice cooker, rice. Do you have a rice cooker? No. I'm not big enough fair rice cooker. I use my bathtub as a rice cooker, but it only holds one cup. Alright. Uh, I'm embering something light and fluffy with the grains intact. I follow a standard procedure for washing the rice multiple times. By the way, that never freaking works. You know what I mean? It's like, people shouldn't like so much starch, you're going to leach off the surface. testify, never works. Never works. Here's it works. Here's the thing, right? Just people who write recipes for cooking rice shouldn't tell people like me to rinse it until the rice runs the water runs
+
+[28:43] clear. Because you know what the water never, ever does. It never runs clear. Never. Never. Like, you should just say, rinse it 3 times. Like, you know, blah, you know what I mean? It's like, unless you own a stream, and you can suspend the rice in a flowing freaking stream, rinsing it
+
+[29:07] till it goes clear makes no freaking sense at all. That's what your new refrigerator should do. Mince my rice forming? In a stream. In a stream. What's the what's the Japanese name for the pre- the no rinse rice? Musi, Musi mess? I don't know. Anyway, I never used it. Um, why would I pay extra? I know how to rinse fries. You know? Obsessively and methodically. I don't live in California where every drop of water is a precious gift from the heavens. Using my. Oh, I'm using my. There you go. Dave with the rice knowledge dropping it. I follow the standard procedure of washing the rice multiple times, followed by soaking it for 15 to 30 minutes, then drain and add fresh
+
+[29:43] water to a one. 5 to one ratio of water to rice. By the way, the ratio of water to rice. Everyone gives water to rice ratios, but it's entirely dependent on the evaporation rate that you get out
+
+[29:56] of, because you're never cooking your rice in a 100% sealed vessel. I've run some tests many years ago. I don't remember what the results were. I mean, unless you're watching cooking a race and a pressure cooker. Even so, yes. Or in the best way to do it would be, and I think someone did this. I forget whether it was America's Test Kitchen, so they did it in Sudeed bags. Okay. in retort bags. You could do it that way. Anastasia and I ran a series of tests years ago, but they were kind of inconclusive on sealed bean cookery.
+
+[30:24] I was trying to do, I was trying to, you know, you know, beans, how do you say beans in a bottle
+
+[30:29] in Thai, it's like festioli or something like this? You remember how to say bottle Italian? Fagioli, fiasco or something like that? Fajoli fiasco? I don't know. That sounds plausible. Anyway. Anyway, it's like you stick the beans in a bottle. You familiar with this? And you add the water and you just put a little olive oil into it, and you throw in a couple of
+
+[30:47] herbs, and you just throw the, put the bottle in the oven uncapped, and then it just like absorbs the, and then you shake the beans out of the
+
+[30:55] bottle. And so basically it's just a method to, uh, A, cook the beans very slowly and beans, uh, B, beans. Now I got, I'm channeling Cesare Casella beasts. Uh, to reduce the uh, amount of liquid that's evaporating out of the product while it's while it's cooking so that it can be more. anyway. So I was trying to do different various ways of doing it. I never got, I never got it perfect. That culminated in a test I ran where I did pressure cooked. I making quote marks with my fingers that you can't see over the air. But, um, where I did uh, pressure cooked beans directly in an ISI whipper with a blowtorch. Like super not safe. Remember that, Nastasia? I shoved a thermometer into the top of an ISI and
+
+[31:39] then like blowtorched it. And then, how, like, what's the pressure rating for that safety valve? High? Okay. You know what I mean? I forget how, I forget, like, multiple times. What a pressure cooker can take. Oh yeah. We cooked beans from dry in like, I want to say like 5 minutes, right? It was like stupid. It was dumb. I should go back and look at the video. We did it for, um, we did it for a 1st week feast. I was making nachos at someone's desk from. Oh, yeah, yeah. From scratch. And for me, from scratch means we start with dry beans. So we started with dry beans for the refried beans and just blowtorch the thing. But looking back, like even like recommending to someone that we do that was like a really terrible, terrible idea. They tasted. they tasted good. It tasted fine. Even Nastasia said it tasted fine. Remember the look on the guy's face? There's a guy next to us, the guy, okay, so like, when they were shooting it, the dude next to us, they wanted him to keep working like it was a normal work day while I was doing it. And I'm sitting here, like, I turn him. I'm like, hey, this is probably not going to explode. And I start blowtorching the steel container. And he was like, what the what? And we start dumping liquid nitrogen on the desk, like behind it, making the margaritas. He hated us. Like, I hated us. Anyway. Um, So back to this thing. one.5 to one ratio, there is no such thing as 100% ratio. What there is, is if you use one. 5 to one on a particular style of rice. Odds are that that particular style of rice is going to have similar, right? So the longer something cooks, right? Probably, I'm guessing, although it's not necessarily, do you add more to brown rice than to white rice? I'm trying to look at, I'm trying to see in my head the water levels for the cups on the side of my rice cooker. But anyway, I would guess that the longer a rice cooks, the more water you need to add because of the increased evaporation. Also, the wider your pan, the more water you have to add for a given amount of rice because the more surface
+
+[33:38] area and therefore the more evaporation because your typical pot is not actually sealed. And in fact, here's another lie people tell you constantly that I've kind of said on the air a bunch of times, but anyone that thinks you're generating any pressure on the inside of a pot is sorely
+
+[33:54] mistaken unless it is completely sealed because even one half PSI of overpressure on the inside of a pot that's 8 inches across, right?
+
+[34:04] Let's say your pot's only 8 inches across. So half of 8 is four, four, 4 squared, 16. Right? So that's R squared, and then pi, six, so just say times three. 48-ish. So 48 and a half divided by two. 24, 24. So about £24 is pushing up out of an 8 inch pot that
+
+[34:30] is um, that is not sealed at a mere half PSI. That's a lot of weight. Yeah. Most people's lids don't weigh 24 pounds. That's right. So you'd need a perfect ceiling and you would need a £24 sack of garbage on top of your of pot to get a mere half PSI of overpressure. But it is true that you are vastly reducing evaporation by covering
+
+[34:54] it, vastly reducing evaporation, but you're not stopping it by any means. Just by surface area. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, correct. So anyway, so one. 5 to one is like, you can't go based on like a ratio like that. Um, let me get back to the question because my phone decided I was done. Okay. The cook surface is nice and pretty fluffy, but as I get closer to the bottom, it gets more or less clumpy and mushy. Is it a matter of changing the ratio or the soaking time? I forgot to say, they soaked by 15 to 30 minutes. Um, Or are there other variables that work, such as the age of the rice or humidity levels? Ultimately, I'd like to use it for making delicious fried rice. Any helpful tips or suggestions would be most appreciated. All right, look. If you want to make fried rice. Right? I almost don't care if some of this stuff's broken for fried rice. You know what I mean? Or a little mushy, but you might want to consider it. You'll say what type of rice you're using. You might want to, no one, does anyone do, like, um, fried rice with, like, a basmati style? I mean, if someone must, but it would taste good, no? too thin, too thin. I mean, I suppose once you like cool it and then fry it, it could, like, the texture would be not as
+
+[36:10] good, maybe. Right. I mean, the problem with something like, let's say, like, like Nastasia, kind of the rice of choice in my house is jasmine rice because I enjoy the smell, right? The problem with jasmine rice in general, for this kind of style of cooking that we're discussing here, pot, pot cooking is that it has a, it's long, it's longer grain, so, but it also
+
+[36:33] is, um, stickier, right, than a lot of other long grain varieties of rice, and so it tends to have this problem of having some of the grains at the bottom be
+
+[36:45] mushier, um, when the top is perfect, right? And also, I don't think jasmine rice is going to respond. Well. I don't know. I haven't tested, but I don't think it's going to respond well to the technique you would use for
+
+[36:57] Basmati rice, which would be boil it in copious water, drain it just before it's done, and then let it steam out. You can, if you're really worried about it. You can do a, um, like a half and half where you do a partial absorption cooking of your rice and then steam it to completion.
+
+[37:15] And that will that will cause the bottoms to not get mushed out. Well, and I was thinking, I mean, maybe this is a stupid question, but why not just steam all of
+
+[37:23] it? You can. Jasmine Rice can be steamed. If you're going to steam jasmine rice, right? You need to go thinner on your layer and wide. So like that would be another thing. I think, like, in general, I said this last week. I think that in general, I think what you're going to minimize textural difference between the bottom and the top of the rice simply by not having the layer be so thick, but you're always
+
+[37:48] going to have a tendency for the bottom rice to absorb more waters because it's in contact with water longer. So the top is essentially steaming, while the bottom is essentially done. So, um, yeah, like I said, like one thing you could do, if you want to have partial absorption cooking because it's faster, right? is you could, uh, you could, so there's always water above the surface of your rice when you start cooking. Yeah. So you could, in essence, lift it slightly so it's off the bottom, so that it cooks down and then it's not touching the sort of the really cute kid looking on our window. So it's not touching the bottom of the rice when it starts to
+
+[38:24] steam and then it steams the rest of the rice. Right, so you need like a pot with a false bottom that lets you boil for a certain amount of time, and then the water level gets low enough. Yeah, activate something. Yeah, but a lot of this also, like, you could probably do the, you know, what a lot of people do is they'll, towards the quotes end, They'll open it, fluff the rice, i.e. turn it a little bit, close it and let it equalize and steam out for the last little bit. Right, because of the stuff that was on the bottom is now at the top. Now steaming. Now steaming, and like they finish it out that way. So that's always to do it. But while I was researching this, I looked at a couple of interesting papers. One is called, um, the formation of cracks in rice during wedding, and
+
+[39:01] it just look at, it has a bunch of extra stuff, but unfortunately that one I couldn't like copy and paste in to take a look at it. But that, so it turns out that... You couldn't access the full? Yeah, paper? Yes, you can. you don't even need to pay for it. It's there on the on the inner web. And the interesting thing is, is that, so pre-soaking the rice, it's not, what happens is, is that the surface of the rice
+
+[39:22] cracks, like fairly soon after you start soaking it. And so it's those cracks that allow water to get
+
+[39:31] in like really, really quickly. And therefore, even a small soaking time can drastically decrease the amount of time it takes to get water in to make it taste cooked.
+
+[39:45] anyway. Then there's another piece, though, that I read. And it wasn't cited a lot, so I don't know whether people agree with it, but this is interesting. It's called the, uh, and I mentioned this last week. I don't know if anyone looked it up, but I didn't talk about it. The impact of pre-soaking on flavor of cooked rice by E.T. Champagne, a kale bet
+
+[40:03] garber. Uh, this is in uh, was printed. I don't have the date on me. But anyway, you can look it up. And they did it. They did it as part of the ARS Research Center in New Orleans, which is maybe where the rice is. Maybe that's where we keep our rice cultures. ARS is the USDA. So anyway, so I mean, that would make sense. So it should be real, right? I would just read the beginning. Soaking rice and water for 30 minutes longer before cooking is traditionally practiced in Japan, Korea, and other Asian countries. This paper is going to piss Japanese people off, like piss them off because they're so hyped up on like the specific techniques that they use. You know what I mean? That like, anyway, so anyway, check this out. When soaked, the rice grains hydrate, develop cracks and water is absorbed. Soaking facilitates uniform cooking and shortens cooking time. This is why a lot of times why we say we do it, right? Because water absorbs in faster, you're not going to have a hard center of the grain
+
+[41:00] and a mushy outside and also it shortens the cooking time for those of you that are interested in shortening cooking time. But of course, shortening the cooking time is no big deal because you're increasing the freaking soaking time. Hello? Uh, and a lot of people have run tests on things like uh, cooking time versus soaking time on beans. Obviously it's much faster. Pasta, faster. Everything pre-soaking makes it faster. Okay. The cooked kernel, after soaking is usually less firm. Uh, I guess, I guess they mean when it's done. The present study was undertaken to determine the effects of pre-soaking on the flavor of cooked
+
+[41:36] rice, and whether the flavor differences are associated with textural changes that can influence the retention of aroma compounds. So this might be interesting to you. 11 samples of short, medium and long grain milled rice, representing scented and non-scented rice, and a wide rate range of amylose contents, were presented to a descriptive sensory panel. For the set of all rice samples, undesirable, ready for this nastasia? Undesirable sewer slash animal flavor, significantly increased, and sweet taste significantly decreased with pre-soaking for 30 minutes.
+
+[42:07] Simmer flavor. were you familiar with that defect in rice? Animal slash sewer flavor? Did they say what temperature they soaked it at? Uh, I think they did it. It's either this or another study. This is just the abstract. methods. I' sure they did. I mean, I did look at them, but I don't remember. For individual rice samples, significantly higher sewer slash animal intensity was observed with pre-soaking for the 2 basmati rice
+
+[42:32] samples, and one of the US long grain rice samples. When pre soaked, sweet taste was significantly lower in one of the basmati and jasmine rice samples. The US medium grain rice and one US long grain rice. Okay, so basically they're saying that Animal and Sewer was in the Basmati and a couple other long range. So maybe the short grain, Japanese style rice don't get the animal sewer, and sweetness was decreased in the long range. So maybe it's just soaking on shortened medium grained Japanese style rice is okay. But longer grain rice is if you pre-soak them. They bring on the sweet, sweet animal and sewer, especially scented ones. But then they add, uh, pre-soaking also resulted in significant increases in some negative flavor attributes and significant decreases, in some positive flavor
+
+[43:16] attributes for the set of all rice samples. The effect of pre-soaking on texture as measured by TPA hardness. I don't know what TPA hardnesses. Texture penetrator analysis. I think something like that. And chewiness did not explain the observed increases in negative flavor attributes. An increase in free sulfur containing amino acids with pre-soaking could have resulted in an increase of their breakdown
+
+[43:36] products, thereby contributing to the increase in sewer slash animal flavor. The decreases in sweet taste and some positive flavor attributes were likely the result of masking caused by the increase in sewer animal and some negative flavor attributes.
+
+[43:47] Interesting, huh? Very interesting. Never thought about it. didn't think about it that way before. And I have to look and see, they say, I'm wondering what they'd, they said short, medium, and long grain, but I want to see if they actually use like a Japanese style one. Right, yeah. Wouldn't that, isn't this going to, is next going to stir up a, like, a, you would think this would stir up a controversy? kicked a bit of a hornet's nest. Right now, Dave. I think it's kind of important. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, I typically, like, when I feel like I'm treating my rice nicely. I'll pre-soak it. Certain rice, you have to pre-soak, like, uh, sweet rice, like speaking rice. Italy rice is all about the soaking when you're making a dough, but you never think of Italy as having like a sewer animal or like a lack of sweet
+
+[44:26] flavor, right? So, like, of course, all that stuff's par cooked. I couldn't see whether they par cooked or parboiled this rice, just parboiling, decreased this like animal soaking thing. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? We need some follow-up on this. need some follow-up on this. You want to take a quick break, Dave, and come back? Yeah sure. All righty.
+
+[44:56] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[45:39] Browse Chest Steps, amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[45:54] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I can imitate that idiot, J-O-U-L-E. Are we really playing, like, me on this show, like, they don't hear enough. They got to hear Mia in the promo, too. Dave Overload. Dave Overload is right. All right. So we have another question in. Now, this is from Cafe Bezalou in where are they? I forget where they said they are in Seattle. So I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm not necessarily going to be able to answer this question. But, uh, in fact, well, let's just get to the question first. you know, Ariel, maybe you have some information on this. What do you know about dairy chemistry? Fair bit. Nice. All right. So then this is your question because, well, you know about butter chemistry style? None, nothing. In fact, this is a question. The question that these guys are asking is not something I'd ever considered before, which I enjoy. So in fact, that's often the best kind of... it's the best. But the problem is, is that, like, it's also not the kind of question that a cursor cursory review of literature could answer because it's not something that is, um, a lot of other people
+
+[47:12] have worried about. Right. And we'll get into it. Why? So what I tried to do for you guys was I tried to get in touch with Professor Goff at the University of Guelph, like the dairy
+
+[47:23] guy whose ice cream pages I've read for years and years, but I didn't try to contact until this morning, so he didn't get back. So like if he does ever get back to me and wants to call in, I'm
+
+[47:33] going to read your question now, but then I'm going to, I'll re-follow up if he gets back to me. I would like to have him call in or call into the show because I kind of like to talk to the guy because I've used his ice cream information so freaking
+
+[47:45] much. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, the man, the myth, the legend. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. It goes like this, the question. Hello, Dave Anastasia. And by Dave, presumably both dates. Presumably. Uh, yeah. How did you enjoy it? By the way, we'll get into it later. My wife and I have owned a bakery in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle for the last 16 years. We specialize in, uh, Vien Noiseries. Now, listen, Vienna has makes delicious pastries. Did you know this? Have you been? I have not been, but I've flown through the Vienna airport and the airport pastries are slightly less bad than regular airport pastries. So hopefully that'll work well on the... Nastasia, have you ever been to an airport? You actually, now, you would like it. You actually would like it. Like, because I know I've seen every European, you feel like you, like you've seen every European city, but like Vienna actually has a really cool feel to it.
+
+[48:37] And I swear to God, their pastries are freaking phenomenal. Like they, and you like pastries, right? They're really good. Like I have to say, they're really freaking good. I had the schnitzel. It was good. you know what I mean? At the official place. It was good. Their Vorst was very good. But man, those guys know how to make pastry. You know? I don't know. Anyway. So, um, and I know that's not what. I mean, the croissant originates from possibly Vienna and the retreating Turks. What'd you call me? Anyway, but the other thing about Vienna, it's so crazy is that it's like at such a confluence of culture, and it's like right on that, it's right at the border between, you know, it definitely feels like a Western European town, but it's right at the border between Eastern and Western
+
+[49:25] Europe. And, uh, and like far to the south there too, right? And but the thing about it is, is that it was the center of Western European culture for a long time.
+
+[49:37] and still has that like supercultural feel to it, plus pastry. Plus pastry. plus pastry. Plus, like a very high concentration of urban vineyards. Is that true? Yeah, yeah, They had like the city planners in like the 18th and 19th century. Like, put all these interstitial grape vineyards. Anything any good, making anything good? Or is it all garbage? No, no, no, it is good. And like people have been tending it for like 100s of years. Yeah, so it's this like urban sort of, uh, like AOC. So you can get wine from Vienna, yeah. And you've had this wine. A long time ago, yeah. I know more about it as a historical curiosity of winemaking, but yes, you can get this one. Nice. You had it when you were at Davis? They shipped over. Hey, did I tell you I had a Norton I liked? you? Yeah. I forget the name of it, but I had a Norton I liked. And someone was supposed to ship us some Nortons. We're waiting people. We'll credit you. We'll give all kind of love. I'm interested in I'm interested in the Norton. Anyway, you know, the U.S. great. don't know, Norton, the U.S. great. What's the other name for it? Cynthiana. There's another name for Norton that is used in Virginia. Anyway, but I forget what it is. Muscadine, is it? No, no, no, totally different. No, no. Norton does not have a, um, Norton does not have a kind of a
+
+[50:55] fox. Oh, it doesn't a non-fox? No, they like, but Norton gets a bad rap. And I said this on the air before, but I think the reason Norton gets a bad rap is because no one is, I think the window of greatness, what I've read from people who actually know about
+
+[51:10] Norton, is that the window of greatness of Norton is like short and not right away.
+
+[51:16] So it's not like great right away. And it's not great if it's really old. You want to hold it for, you know, like 3 to 5 years and then drink it. But then if you can do that, then Norton really can kind of hold its own. People are so freaking prejudiced against alternative, uh, grapes. Yeah, they really are. You know what's really weird is that everyone and their and their sibling is like interested in the
+
+[51:43] tiniest, like Italian or French grape that they grow 3 of, and everyone's like super jacked, and no one wants to look for the awesome weird American grape. Yeah, we need more, like, pride in our, by university. I mean, and I think it's because, I think it's because at least all those weird European grapes are
+
+[52:04] all like under cultivation for wine making. Yeah, they're all vinifera, right? And so, you know, this Norton is not Vinefera. And so, you know, people are like, oh, so it can't be good because a lot of wine from, you know, other styles of grapes, um, you know,
+
+[52:20] foxgraves here are wretched, to be fair. But anyway, whatever. Enough enough enough of that. We're back in Vienna. We specialize in, and I can't say the word again with the Frenchness. So I'm just going to say Vienna style pastry, such as croissant, panel
+
+[52:36] chocolate, et cetera. Sorry, Nastasia. They apologize to you for loving the croissant. Did you know that Nastasia hates croissant? Like a flavor thing or like a mess thing? I think a people like it thing. I like chocolate croissants. There you go. So you like the pan of shadow lot. The butter we use is European slow churned, low water. That's all in quotes. 82% butter fat product from Oregon. So it's like not like, you know, it's not Costco butter. No offense, Costco. Lately, we have been plagued by what I call brittle butter. Now, remember, this is recent, okay? So it's recent. It's not their entire career recently. Normally, good butter has a stretch or extensibility that is essential in croissant
+
+[53:16] making. As you may know, the butter and puff pastry and croissant has to stay cold, yet pliable to form smooth, even layers as it is rolled between layers of dough. So cool, right? It needs to be soft enough that it can be rolled out, but not so warm that it melts into the dough, right? It needs to stay as distinct layers, all right? So we're all good on what we're talking about here. As of late, our butter has been shattering into little chips between the dough. See the attached video. So they set a video of like the dough after like one or 2 turns and
+
+[53:48] they, they slice it with a sharp knife so you can see the dough, 2 dough layers and a butter layer and they pull on
+
+[53:53] it. And in the one, the good butter, sure enough, the butter pulls with it. butter pulls with it, like a fine taffy. And then when I before I knew it, I just saw the video from Nastasia and it said butter and I thought these guys had managed to make butter that pulls like taff, you know, I was like, 0 my
+
+[54:08] god, these people are going to become billionaires. Imagine if you could have butter with that texture. It would be freaking nuts, like butter with the texture of dough. I was like, 0 my god, I'm moving to Seattle. I'm learning how to do this. But it wasn't. It was dough with the butter in the middle once I looked closer. I was going to be like, these people, like, clearly, like, you know, there is a Yoda out there, and I need to go study with Yoda, because, like, I
+
+[54:34] was just like, it's one of those things where now it's in my head that I should be able to do this with butter.
+
+[54:39] And so like someday I'm going to figure it out. Like, I'm going to have butter with the texture of seleptoderma. And I was just like, this is happening you, right? your mind tells you, no, this is like the same mind that caused me to walk into a glass wall a week and a half ago in
+
+[54:53] Spain. Mine. It's not quite paying attention, but. I think they might call that the imp of the perverse. Oh, really? You look much better. My eye does look better, right? Now I just look like, you know, I got in a scuffle, maybe. You were a monster last week. Well, you should have seen me. I should Instagram out the picture of what I looked like right afterwards. Because I look like I make Frankenstein look like he had a small brow. Uh, it was it was nasty. Even Nastasi said, even though I'm happy that you're hurt. I can't look at it because it makes me nauseating. I did not say that. You literally said, I can't look at it anymore because it makes me nauseated. But why would you want to look at it because you want to see me hurt. That's the only reason. anyway. As of late, our butter has been shattering into little chips between the dough. I know that fat can come in many forms from saturated to liquid. I also know that many farmers feed their cows a mix, including canola oil to boost a fat content of milk. I also recall working in Switzerland, where the bakers had a choice of butters with the same fat content, but were rated with different melting points. The problem with our butter has been intermittent from case to case, right? which is the worst. You just want it to be one way or the other, one way or to other. Um, case the case meaning case of butter, not like, anyway, whatever. So apparently every case of butter is either one way or to other, right? But they're using the same producer. Yeah. So, uh, we we asked the producer, they say they have no idea what we're talking about and that we should ask the cows. That is a jackweed thing to tell you. First of all, like, if I'm the producer and I'm making, like, fancy, expensive, like, slow churn European style butter. And one of my users who like is spending a lot of extra money to buy my product comes to me and says, without being a jerk,
+
+[56:40] like I'm having this issue, can you help me out? Like, there's a thing I need your butter to do that I buy it for and it's not doing that. Yeah, you freaking look into it. Yeah, it would be horrified. I would be, I would, I would, I would, yes. I would commit damage to myself. I would be so upset, you know? And so like the reaction of this butter producer is not cool, right? Super uncool. Super uncool. First of all, they should at least be intrigued. Ask the couch. That's right up there with ask my butt, which is what I like to say. interesting question. Ask my butt. But you know, when I say it in a non-family show. I use a different word. But anyway, isn't that a nice, It's a fun way to really, it's a mean brush off, but it kind of feels good to use it, right? Styles, you said it to me. No, yes, I have. You deserved it. Okay. The problem in our butter is intermittent from case to case. Usually we can use the funky butter, funky butter would be an awesome James Brown song. It's too bad he's dead. It's like funky drummer. You just say, all you have to do is take the song, Funky Drummer, and take the word drummer out and say butter. one of his kid that does that does like mashups. Yeah, yeah. A funky butter. With truffle butter. Weird Owl's actually doing voiceovers for Teen Titans Go. Did you know this? did not know that. Yeah. We can usually use the funky butter and cookie doughs or creams as there is no adverse taste in the butter. It's not a taste issue. Okay. It must be a fatty acid compound. Presumably, these guys have control over the moisture content of their butter, so it's not the moisture content, presumably it's the fatty acid content. Lately, the problem has been more frequent, and we are unable to exchange the brittle butter for good butter. Any insight would be much appreciated as we're much in need of a solution. Uh, okay. And that's from James at Cafe Bezelou in Seattle. So I did some original research, not original. I did some preliminary, rather, research on the internets, and it is, in fact, true that the
+
+[58:36] actual triglyceride profile of butter changes quite a lot based on the breed of the
+
+[58:45] cow and the feed of the cow. Um, so you might, you might need to switch to a butter producer that has a, uh, a finer hold over the feed of their
+
+[59:00] cow, right? So, like, for instance, like, but it's going to cost you a phenomenal amount more, right? So you might need to go to like crappy, uh, you know,
+
+[59:12] crappy, the supermarket butter might actually be more homogeneous because it's probably all coming from the
+
+[59:17] same, like, garbage industrially fed cows, right? But maybe it works for you. But the, the other side is you could probably spend a lot and I don't know whether grass feeding is good for this or not, but I mean, you can buy a butter where you know what the feed of the cows
+
+[59:33] is. And then, like, we only feed silage, for instance. So we only feed grass, for instance. And then at least you know what it's going to be from case to case. Um, but I don't I originally looked into into some solutions. So a lot of people, when they're trying to, there's 2 reasons to feed your cows, that the literature was talking about, to feed your cows specific things. One, is some people want to lower the saturated fat index of their
+
+[59:57] butter, and so they attempt to feed lots of poofas to uh, probably unsaturated fatty ass, to cows, to change the composition. The other is to increase the fat content. So normally, all the studies I read where they tried to decrease the saturation of the fat also led to an increase in overall fat content.
+
+[1:00:16] So that's probably not what's happening in your case. Well, and, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong from your research on this, but I would imagine
+
+[1:00:24] that like more saturated fatty acids would give a crumblier texture profile than... You would think that, however, however, when I was looking at it, one study, and I was
+
+[1:00:37] like skimming through it. This is why we really need to get a hold of someone like who's like a butter technologist. Uh, one study seemed to show that, um, butter that had actually been reinforced with steering,
+
+[1:00:50] like, like, steering acid 3 times, which is a stiff, stiff, hard, like,
+
+[1:00:56] talent wax. Butter that had been reinforced with that was more plastic in all temperature ranges. So, um, which was totally, I was like, what? I'm like I must be misreading it. So I think maybe I was misreading it. But when I when I started getting data that was like so back and forth in my head, I'm like, boom, I can't say anything other than this is a really interesting subject to
+
+[1:01:19] me. The other thing I would say is, is that you might, I wonder whether there, whether you can get any benefit by pre-plasticizing the butter. In other words, uh, like, I don't know how you, I don't know what you do to your, uh, butter block before you, um, before you do it,
+
+[1:01:36] but, like, some beating, um, you know, this is just true.
+
+[1:01:41] is that whenever I bake, I'm lazy. And so I pull butter hyper cold out of the fridge and I beat it with a rolling pin and
+
+[1:01:49] and it all of a sudden becomes plastic. Now, a lot of this has to do with friction, right? Because you're doing heating with friction and you're beating it. But it can't, but when I thought about it, it's not really getting that much warmer. It can't all be that. I wonder whether you can, like, do something. almost like, I don't know if, is butter actually, does it have a crystal structure at
+
+[1:02:12] all? Well, it's in other words, it has multiple melting points, right? It's like, it's not like as sharp as, uh, it's not as sharp as, let's say, cocoa butter, which is
+
+[1:02:23] a very pretty sharp. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and I ask that because if there is any kind of, like, pattern to the alignment of the fat molecules, then physically manipulating them could make the overall texture more
+
+[1:02:34] plastic. Right. It's not like pure crystallization then. Right. It's got to be some combination. Some kind of like Penrose solid thing with like local order. Right. I mean, yeah I don't know. In other words, like maybe this could help. I don't know, but the other thing is, is that I know that for in, you know, for when you're using just shortening for these kinds of situations, they have specific solid fat
+
+[1:02:55] ratios and specific temperatures with specific meltouts to get the puffiest pastry possible. But anyway, so I think it's an interesting subject. I'm going to cogitate on it over the week. Hopefully Professor Goff gets back to me or points me in the direction of a butter expert next week and Nastasia and I will come back with information about Saratoga's
+
+[1:03:13] Saratoga's. Saratoga's By the way, the reason we're going is because water comes out of the ground with bubbles in it in Saratoga. It comes out of the ground, carbonated by whatever you want to call it,
+
+[1:03:27] God, nature, magma. Like it's from the mantle. It's carbonated out of the ground. And I might... That's like literally your holy grail. Like, like the, I'm, like, honestly, I'm so freaking excited to go drink, put my face under a tap of water outside that is carbonated and just inhale salty carbonated water.
+
+[1:03:52] Like I like Vichy Catalan with salty carbonated stuff. So yeah, I'm super excited about that. Nastasi and I, in different rooms, are also going to take a bath in carbonated water, which is another dream of
+
+[1:04:04] mine. Take a bath in carbonated water. It's gonna be excellent. In the meantime, go to mofad.org and please donate to our Kickstarter for the next upcoming exhibition we're
+
+[1:04:16] going to have. Chow, the making of Chinese American cuisine. And Dave, didn't we have a donor for cooking issues that we want to give a shout out to? Do you have that information? Uh, do not know. See if I can call it up really quickly. on the way out. In otherwise, we'll just think. Well, thank them next week. Just remind me to thank them next week, and we'll be back with more cooking issues.
+
+[1:04:45] Thanks for listening to this program on HeritageRadionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes
+
+[1:04:55] store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage radio network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[1:05:15] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Raketin opens up a world of rewards. You can earn cash back on fashion, beauty, electronics,
+
+[0:06] pet supplies, kids, stuff, groceries. But what I'm here to tell you is, with Raketin, you get cash back on travel too. Join and save on your next trip. You'll get cash back on the flight, the hotel, and the car rental. Book on your favorite travel sites like Expedia, booking.com,
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+[0:36] points, and with many loyalty programs, because we know you're saving every way you can. So go ahead. Take a trip, find that perfect hotel, book an artisan cheese experience inside a cave in Spain, wherever you want to go, go with
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+[0:51] Rakutin. Join today for free. Go to racketon.com or get the app. That's RAK-U-T-E-N. This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for Sous vide by Chef steps. Order now at chesteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, and she's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, every Tuesday from a little bit even later than normal, around 1215 today, you know, to around 1245, Brooklyn, you know, one o'clock from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? So, actually, Nastasia and I went on an adventure last week, which we'll see if we have time to talk about our adventure to the great town
+
+[1:58] of Saratoga Springs, but we have 2 guests in the studio with us. Today. We have Kitchen Appliance Engineer Joe Zakowski. How you doing? Good afternoon. Yeah, and we have the reigning current crown prince of the Museum of Food and Drink. Peter Kim. Here to spread hate and vacate. Yeah. What kind of vacate? number two? That's actually a line from exhibit. I don't know if you remember that guy. I remember, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, with the spelling X. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Strength. We got Dave in the booth. What up? How you doing? Good. Speaking of Dave in the booth. So a number of months ago, uh, Nastasia and I, along, Carlos in that too, right? In the one we did for Johnny Walker, Dave? Oh, I wasn't here that day. so I'm not sure, but we do have the episode. Yeah, so we taped a, well, I gotta admit, it was like a show thing. Like we were like, they were like, hey, will you do this episode for this new Johnny Walker
+
+[2:59] product and we're like, okay. But anyway, we actually taped the full on episode. And if you don't like the wine episode, you shouldn't go to this one, but we're going to tweet out as the last of Nastasia and my contractual tweet and Instagrams.
+
+[3:15] We will send out a link, like that's not in our normal cooking issues feed, to a cooking issues episode where we talk to the rare, the rare beast, unfortunately, in the
+
+[3:27] uh, in the spirits world, but the, the female master uh, blender, uh, which is uh, which is awesome. You know what I mean? need more of that, the industry needs to shift to a more gender
+
+[3:43] parody situation. What? Balance. Balance. Yeah, balance. All right. how are we going to start here? Peter, why don't you, why don't you, before you just start throwing your hate and your vacate, why don't you just, uh, why don't you drop your, uh, drop your plug knowledge for the museum food and
+
+[3:59] drink? Oh, yeah. So, uh, we are working right now on Chow, the making of Chinese American cuisine. And, uh, basically, yeah, you've got this situation where
+
+[4:09] they're, I don't think they know, I don't think we've talked about it because you haven't let us talk about it on air. What? All right, okay. Why don't you explain what the exhibit is? Yeah, yeah, I'm explaining the exhibit, man. All right. Jeez. Before you ask them for money, why don't you at least... Tell them. Yeah, so you've got the situation where you've got over 50,000 Chinese restaurants in the US. They're all over. Look, so I grew up in the Midwest, right? Um, you know, middle of nowhere, Danville, Illinois. Whoa, what are you insulting on your upbringing? That's true. I mean, so anyway, we were one of the only Asian families in the
+
+[4:39] town and when we wanted to, you know, like I grew up eating like meatloaf and like green bean casserole, but also like, you know, dried squid and other Korean stuff. But when we wanted to go out to eat... Fried squid would be nice in the green bean casserole. So when we wanted to go out to eat and we wanted to eat something that wasn't like Olive Garden, it was a Chinese restaurant.
+
+[4:59] And I think, you know, it was really the only option for going out to
+
+[5:03] eat to have something that was like, you know, quote, in quotes, ethnic. Um, and so, uh, if that's actually the case in a lot of parts of the country. So you live the Asian version of the Christmas story. Yeah, basically. Yeah, there you go. And so you have this like situation where these restaurants are all around the country. They're all serving. all run by Chinese immigrant families. They're serving a menu that, I think we all know, is not a lot like food in China. And it's one of these things that's become just such a central part of American culture. Um, and, uh, so what's, you know, I guess it's a sort of curious situation and we want to know, you know, what the story is behind that. And it turns out there is over 100, there are over 150 years of history behind this cuisine. And so we're going to tell a story of that with the exhibition. All right. So like to boil that down into like 30 seconds, the number, how many restaurants, roughly? Over 50,000. That's like 3 times a number of McDonald's, right? Yeah, yeah. So there's many more. In fact, there's more Chinese restaurants in the U.S. than Burger King, McDonald's, and Wendy's combined, right? Yeah, of course, because there's more McDonald's than any of those other ones and there's 3 times as many McDonald's, so clearly more. The other thing I think it's really interesting is that we kind of take this thing for, we take Chinese food for granted. Chinese American food, even though it's weird that you have this kind of ubiquitous and kind of monolithic
+
+[6:22] cuisine. I'm not talking about, like, the new fancy stuff that, like, you know, we're not talking about your, like, your Danny Bowens or anything like that. We're talking about like old school, Chinese, American, cuisine. How did this happen that we have a cuisine that is neither cooked by
+
+[6:37] the, those, the people who are make, so people who own the Chinese restaurants, recent immigrants, as you put it normally, not all those, some of them, 34 generations have been having these Chinese restaurants, especially some of the older, more important ones, but they don't cook this food at home, right, for their
+
+[6:49] family, typically, typically. And yet, yet here it exists. It's almost like a synthesized cuisine. super interesting. Unlike Italian American cuisine, where Italian Americans actually cook that stuff at home. Everybody does. It doesn't make like lasagna. Yeah, yeah. you know, eggplant palm. Anyway, but like the point is that like that style of food exists as a living home cuisine and as a restaurant
+
+[7:14] cuisine. Yeah, and it's not just that, but it's like everything around the menu too. You've got the whole sort of format of the meal. You've got the takeout box, you have fortune cookies, you've got sauce packets, you've got like the aesthetic, um, and... Yeah, although we're not getting, we're not
+
+[7:29] getting... No, I mean, but my point is like, it's this whole thing that got developed and like, yeah, I mean, it's this sort of like this crazy story
+
+[7:35] behind it. Yeah, so the thing is, how'd that happen? That's what the exhibit's about. How did this happen? You know what I mean? And it's going to be tied into a launch of our non-brick and mortar based web presence as
+
+[7:49] well, right? Yeah, so we're going to have beautiful menu collection, going to have tastings, which is going to be a 1st for us, actual food. Putting the food back in the museum of food and drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Peter's like, uh, there'll still be pelets. Don't worry. for all of you pelotized people out there. There will still be pellets. And we're going to keep the stink machines going. Some of the stink machines. Yeah, and I saw that in the chat room. Somebody had a problem with it last time with it all smelling like popcorn, pierzine, whatever, but we fixed that. Sorry about that. Yeah, it's like sometimes those valves are literally there's just like a little valve. Listen, thank God it wasn't the buteric acid. You know what I mean? The cheesy vomit. Yeah. But my point is, is that sometimes those valves get stuck open a little
+
+[8:34] bit, and so we probably need to open and reseal the valves and to stop them from, uh, actually the valves when they're going wrong, make
+
+[8:41] it kind of a warrant white noise. Like a little, like a little mini. Yeah, that's what I was going for. Little toot noise. Yeah. Well, anyway, so we have a Kickstarter going for Chow right
+
+[8:52] now, and, you know, when you back the campaign, you get tickets, we're
+
+[8:57] going to have a weekend opening for 2 days. It's going to be on the 4th and the 5th of November. And that's how like eating, not like... Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Chow, Chow, Bella. Yeah. Not like that. Not like that. Like, chow, like... I should bake an ice cream called chow Bella, but like CHOW. Well, interestingly, something you learn if you show up at the exhibit is there used to be a, uh, um, a, uh, a chow
+
+[9:26] chopsui Sunday, right? That was, uh, that was basically just hacked up little pieces of dried fruit on top of the ice
+
+[9:34] cream and I have to say that sounds pretty good. You need to bring that one back. Nastasi, what are your feelings on chewy things on your ice cream? Uh, that sounds good. The gummy bears? Well, not that chewy, but yeah, like of that order. But in other words, like, in general, like, typically for me on an ice cream, I prefer things that like pop and break rather than things that
+
+[9:55] chew. What about, what about like Tendo or like Southeast Asian ice desserts? We have the chewy noodles. I love that, man. I can deal. I'm not I'm never like, I can deal. I can enjoy something like that. or like, for instance, Mochi. Mochi. I love mochi. Oh, that's chewy ice cream. I got you. All right, that's fair. It's like a thing, but like a big, like, like a big, like grated ice thing with like the, with like the cream and stuff and beans. I like it. I like it. I like it. I enjoy having them, but I'm never like, hey, you know what I'm
+
+[10:27] going to go out and get right now. Do you know what really fixed me up right now that? For you, it'd actually be half a great food and a block of cheese. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. 5.5 grapefruits. I really people out there. I really, really. Just so y'all know what the what the thing that he is saying. I really, really like grapefruits. Do you ever wake up in the morning? I need grapefruit. That never happens to you? I love fruit. Joe, you like grapefruit? a high quality fruit. But anyway, let me just get this out. Well, strangely, like, a lot of the ones you buy are incredibly poor quality. Like, just like, it's like, it's not violently, uh, like nauseating the way that a bad pistachio is, but when you, by the way, the way I eat grapefruits, I don't do that, like, you know, I don't do that, like, American 50s
+
+[11:13] thing, cutting them in half and stuff. I just peel them and eat them. But, like, my point is, is that, like, there's something very, like, just so disappointing about a bad grapefruit, the one where it's just
+
+[11:24] thin. There's no sweetness, all acid, slightly bitter, too much pith. It's just so disappointing. Especially the ones that are not like juicy when they get dry. Oh my god. Oh my god. And you can see that the segments kind of break apart. and you just look at it and you're so sad. First of all, you paid 2 bucks for that thing. You know what I mean? And you know, you're reasonably smart person, right? I hope we're all reasonably smart people. So when you pick up the grapefruit, you're picking one that's not too spongy, right? I mean, you know, look, bearing in mind that you know whether it's a California or
+
+[11:57] a Florida grapefruit, so you know what the fundamental skin thickness should be. You're trying to heft the fruit itself to see whether or not it contains enough water and make that judgment.
+
+[12:07] You make that judgment and you get home and when you still have garbage, like with all of the thinking and a $2 later, it's just so disappointing. I hate it. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, so go to child.mofed.org, child spelled C-H-O-W, not the Italian way. Um, and our, at our Kickstarter, you can get tickets to the uh, private opening of the
+
+[12:28] exhibition, and uh, Dave, Dave will be there. I'll be there. Yep, exactly. Um, and uh, we'll have some fun surprises for people there. And then you get membership to the museum. And you get to help us out with building the next show. So, yeah, go to Chowdammofed Netor. Yeah, all right. So, and now you can just be hate filled. Emperor Peter from here on in. Strikeled operational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, by the way, Peter and I almost always only talk to each other in Emperor Palpatine
+
+[12:59] voice. Yeah, yeah. Which sometimes can fade into like stereotypical Jewish grandmother. Wow. I never really thought about it. could do that for me. I'm not going to freak out this fine. If you feel it. If you feel it later in the show, you can you can do it. But, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to, that's like a lot to put you on the spot for. So, you know, so, Joe, what are you working on now? So I'm just here to sport cooking issues. Oh, come on now. If you're on the show, you gotta tell, give us like, what are you working on? Anything you can talk about? Nothing I can talk about. have to kill you. Well, I'm sure many people would, many, many, many men wish death upon me to bring out you some, who's that? You don't know that song? Many men wish death pon me? Many, many men. Oh, yeah. Wait, you say we got a call, Dave? Yeah, you want to take call? Yeah let's do it. Oh, by the way, call in your appliance design related questions to Joe Zakowski. I believe this is souped related. Oh, here we go. Alright. how to do that. Hey. Yeah, um, 1st question I I just sent the recipe, um, uh, end of the heritage radio email address. It's, um, propo de clam. It's basically homemade chocolate pudding. But the recipe is, is how to do it without using the sous vide machine, and I just needed your best guess for a, um, time and temp to do it sous vide, because while it comes
+
+[14:22] out, great. standing there and stirring for at least 20 minutes is just a more than a pain. Yeah, so... I mean, I don't have the recipe in front of me because it's on the computer, but most of those set custards are in the 80s range, Celsius, like,
+
+[14:41] so, like, for instance, like when I'm doing, so, it depends on how much stuff you have in it, right? Like it all depends on the solids ratio, but so something that's very liquidy that you don't want to set, like a
+
+[14:53] creme anglaise, I'll do it like 82 Celsius, but that that'll only be for like 15 minutes. And if you were to rock that that way for an hour, It wouldn't quite set, but it would be close to set. But you're going to have a much higher egg ratio probably in your custard. And so I would guess, my guess is you're going to want to be somewhere around 85C, and if it's in a small ramekin situation, I'm assuming when you made sous vide, do you mean like in a combi oven, like in a
+
+[15:22] ramekin, uh, uh, that, or in a steam oven, which by the way, I hear, uh, who was it? I think Cuisinart makes a countertop steam oven now. That is correct. Yeah, and I hear it's pretty good. How low a temperature, Joe, can that go to? Do you know? It can prove. It can prove. So if you had one of those, you could probably steam set low temperature a pot de creme, and I would hit it in the 85C range, and depending on how thick it is, usually I'm doing them in relatively thin ramekins, I would probably go on the order of
+
+[15:55] half hour to 40 minutes. But Joe, do you actually, have you done that recipe in one of those ovens? I have not. Maybe we can find out a recipe and get back to you. You know, John Daragon, formerly of uh, please don't tell the bar, uh, has one of those
+
+[16:09] quiznard ovens. And he was going off on how it was the, you know, the greatest thing that's ever happened to him. You know what the MSRP on those things is? Roughly 150? That's cheap. It's cheap. That's my best guess. What are you, you fill it on the side, like a coffee maker? How do you put the water into it? It just comes with an infinite amount of water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Anyway. All right. So is this answering your question, I hope? Uh, you, um, well, that's, that's pretty good. pretty clear for that 1st question. And then I have a completely separate 2nd question. All righty. Also, so be related. I'm working on a recipe to do a pork roast with pork and
+
+[16:51] cranberry sous vide. And, um, the 1st try I made at it. I didn't quite use enough salt and it just wasn't really tasty. I also didn't pre brown it. The second try I used, what was clearly too much salt, but I also, uh, I ground the heck
+
+[17:11] out before I put it in the bag, and it got that porky taste, like
+
+[17:16] the, uh, that sort of unpleasant porky hint. Right. Now, are you vacuuming it? Are you ziplocing it? Uh, vacuuming it. Huh. Because I would usually, that porky taste usually is a fat breakdown oxidation kind of a situation, so I would have assumed that a vacuum bag would take care of that.
+
+[17:32] Unless, how do you, how do you brown it? Well, I just, um, I just, I haven't, I've had my baking still parked in my grill for forever, so I just got that as hot as it would get and hit it on,
+
+[17:44] in all 4 of the major sides. That's unusual. I would guess usually, um, what's considered not pleasant animal flavors come from fat oxidation, um, and typically, I mean,
+
+[18:01] I, And you did a hard vac on it? It was a hard vacuum. When I was, it's a food saver. Yeah. I mean, that should be enough to get rid of enough. I mean like that would be my guess. I don't know. Maybe someone in the chat room. Dave can has any sort of stuff on this happening. Like, how are the cranberries? Did you pre-cook the cranberries or we're using dried cranberries? Uh, no, I didn't, I was, um, so I, I put salt and pepper on it, let it sit for a day or two. Um, vacuum, uh, vacuum down for that. And then I, uh, opened it up, uh,
+
+[18:37] brush whatever salt was with on the outside, which basically did all absorbed. Um, and um, uh, put it um, ground it and put it in a fresh bag with the port and cranberries. Oh, but the cranberries were pre-cooked. No, the cranberries were dried. Right. You know how they make those dried cranberries? They squish the cranberry juice out of them. And then they use the skins and then they mix the skins with a boatload of sugar. Well, I mean, I don't mind them. I love them. I'm just like saying, like, that's how they make them. That's always curious, yeah. Really work for several recipes we cook with. I mean, I realize they're not really health food. I don't really care about. I'm not a health food kind of a guy. I'm just saying it's like, it's kind of, it's like, it's, it's like one of those. actually, I think it's genius. These guys took what is fundamentally a byproduct, and they turned it into something that, you know, I enjoy eating. My kids enjoy eating. even rarer. You know what I mean? And I think that they are useful in restaurants. I understand picky children. Yeah, well, the only thing. Oh, God, I understand picky children. The other thing about those, if you were to use, even if you were to actually dehydrate your own cranberries, which, by the way, like, I've never tried to eat one of my Christmas strings before, but, like, Peter, you ever
+
+[19:50] eating one of your Christmas strings? When you were a kid, did you do the cranberries and popcorn? Nastasia, did you eat cranberries and popcorn when you were a kid? No. Joe? No. None of you guys, Dave? Never heard of that. Never, you never, never heard of it. Took a needle and thread and popcorn and cranberries. Anyway, this stuff when it's left over is like worse than worse. I don't know. Anyway, the point is, is that the dried skins are good because they don't get all big and nasty. What are your guys' thoughts on inflated raisins and stews? Love. Love? When I was a kid, I was freaked out by him because my mom would put the raisins into the stew and then I was like, oh, raisins. I understand what a raisin is. And then it came out as a half grape. It wasn't like fully a grape anymore, but it wasn't a raisin anymore. And I was like, ah, ah. And so, like, my whole life, like, I've learned to like, because they taste good. Like, just, like, strictly speaking, they taste good. And so like, uh, but anyway, I don't know. Another weird mental problem I have, I guess. You know what I mean? You never had something shock you when you were a kid and it sticks with you for years? That's like, I feel like that's Nastasia's whole life. I never liked chocolate milk because I have this memory in elementary school of it being spilled like everywhere on the lunchroom table and being grossed out by that. By you? Did you spill it knife? No, it wasn't my fault. you still remember that to this day, huh? Yeah, just like pooling in the lunch tray. Like, that's nasty. I can remember biting... I can remember biting into a cream filled donut that was moldy and that I wasn't able to eat cream filling for almost a
+
+[21:18] decade. I was very small, but I still remember, I remember where I was. I was in a waiting room next to the truck full of nuts at the 168th Street, Columbia Presbyterian
+
+[21:29] Hospital, where my mom had gotten me something to eat while she was going to go do something for her internship. And I just remember sitting at this freaking chair at 168th Street and biting into this freaking
+
+[21:41] moldy... This is horrifying. Well, as you know, I don't really care about their being mold on my foot. Yeah, he loves. I can remember my mom frying parsnip chips upstairs for some
+
+[21:53] holiday, and I was violently ill at the time and associating the smell of frying parsnips with throwing
+
+[22:00] up, and I still, to this day, like a lot of veg chips. I'm like, man, no thanks. No, thank you. You know what I mean? It's like they taste good, but it's still got that kind of violent association with them. Again, this is Nastasia's whole life, though. Like she'll associate whole cities with hanging out with a person she didn't like. I mean, I'm talking as an adult. I'm not talking about as a kid. whole, yeah, whole, yeah, whole, like, you know, there's a 1000000000 people. I need to go into more detail here. There's a there's a 1000000000 of you out there. If she met one of you and had a bad time. You're all you're all painted with the same brush. That's that's the... Well, not just the billion that exists now, but the 1000000000s that have existed before them as well. And the future billions, the future billions. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, very strong. Anyway, so back to this question. I don't know what's causing the porkiness. My assumption is that maybe you had a piece of pork with more fat and it was already slightly oxidized before it went into the bag. Um, I have also done stocks and sometimes they come out more or less porky, but I don't know whether it's having to do with the
+
+[23:03] actual, um, uh, characteristics of the meat that went in. I think you're protecting it as well as you can by vacuing it. You want to chill it and vac it as soon as you can. I mean, what I typically do, What I used to do when I wanted to vac something right after is sear down was, I would put the, I would sear it, throw it into a bag, and then immerse that bag unsealed in ice
+
+[23:28] water, to chill down the meat, and then I would, then you could seal it really quickly. Another thing is, is you might want to consider I mean, if it's a recurring thing, then it's clearly just you're getting some sort of uh, uh, reaction where uh, just the initial sear, maybe
+
+[23:46] the sear was at maybe even, I hate to say it's too high a temperature and you're getting some off flavors uh, from it, uh, you could do it
+
+[23:52] on on sear, but you're just going to have to put a hard sear on afterwards. And when you do it that way, you know you're not going to get any oxidation from the initial sear down. So typically, remember, uh, especially for things like beef or things like short ribs, uh, which is beef, uh, like, uh, I would recommend, um, the only one I
+
+[24:10] never say never to sear beforehand is duck breast. Never, never see the duck breast beforehand because it it, you need it to stay flat so that you can crisp it up in the pan later. But, um, uh, I would say, uh, always here afterwards, always here afterwards. That was always part of part of the plans, I was trying to get a, I put a piece here on too, and, you know, you get more flavor of it actually in the meat. That's true. I'm a firm believer in that because, but the thing is, is that maybe this, maybe this
+
+[24:40] sear, so I, I don't know, I don't have like which, which cut of pork was it? shoulder. Yeah, bone and shoulder. So, you know, I haven't done, uh, I haven't done a lot of whole, uh, bone and shoulder. Um, I've done some, but I'm doing the, I was doing those things mainly more like, uh, like, uh, imitating like uh, pulled pork or confit, just salted, like not like heavy seared because I would leave skin on and then crisp up the skin afterwards, so that more of
+
+[25:07] like or more like kalua pig kind of a presentation of the shoulder. So I haven't had a lot where I do like a hard seal all the way around. It might be that just long storage in the bag is with that initial sear is causing it to happen. You know what I used to do that I don't do anymore. I used to, when I was, I would trim all all the meat that I was going to finally have is my portion, and then I would roast all the trim, just roast the hell out of all the trim, and then throw the trim in the bag to get the transfer of
+
+[25:37] brown trim pre-cook flavor into the meat as it was going on on long cooks. But as I get older, I get lazier. So. Well, I'm planning to do this recipe for like a
+
+[25:50] 40, 50 person party, so I was trying to make it as streamlined as possible. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, the good news about his shoulder. is that it can stand a good bit of crisping on the, on the, you're serving it whole or you're shredding your, what are you doing? You're you're going to pull the pieces. Is it skin on? Okay, so what I'm planning to do is get skin on, cook it whole, brown it whole, and
+
+[26:17] then and then shred it. Okay. So you get so you get the little shredded bits mixed in with the rest of the pulled
+
+[26:26] meat. Yeah, okay. So if you're going to pull it, people like a little bit of textural textural variation, and I would say to streamline this, make your life easier. I would just get your salt levels right. Uh, and then, um, I would, especially if you're going to have the skin on it, because the skin's going to pull and get all
+
+[26:44] wonky, have a lot of fat there, and there's a lot of fat there that is relatively soft and prone to oxidation in the skin side of
+
+[26:51] the, uh, uh, in the skin there. So I would, um, I would cook it whole without searing it. And then I would pull it and I would do a hard sear at the finish because that's going to crisp up the cracklings. You need a certain amount of time afterwards, even if you've pre-seered, you need a certain amount of time to crisp the crackling up on the outside that you're going to shred into
+
+[27:10] it and you might, it's going to be more predictable. So like even if it's an effect where sometimes you see it beforehand and you get the porky taste and sometimes you don't, if it's
+
+[27:19] like a, if it's a piece of meat specific kind of a situation, uh, you know, you can't predict it beforehand. The worst thing is to have it not taste the way you want when you pull it out of the bag. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, Trust me, I do. At the event. So I would just do one more without it and then try like a slightly
+
+[27:34] slower, like render crisp sear on the pullout. almost like sous vide for insurance. It's likely to be more predictable if I don't precede. Yes. Got it. That's well, that's also less work, so that's great. All righty. Let us know how it works. Thanks, sir. All right, cool. Dave, should we take a quick break? Yeah, we can do that. Let's take a quick break and come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[28:10] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[28:48] gets you cooking faster and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[28:52] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[29:07] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we're back. So I got some reaction for one of the shows earlier. Andrew writes in regarding my saying that I don't like sweet tea, because I was saying I don't like sweet tea. I mean, okay. Anyway, he says, a couple weeks ago, I wrote in about trying to get a honey flavor in a lavender cocktail. I took your advice and it's been working on perfecting my cocktail. I'll update you on how it's going pretty soon. My issue today refers to something that Dave said on the show while discussing sweet tea. He said, I hate that stuff. Dave, I understand that you have years of experience in food and technology. I know your palate must be outstanding, or at least it's mine. Your knowledge is obviously immense, but how can I, a child of North Carolina who, by weight, has consumed more sweet tea than flour and water combined, trust you. I'm just curious what your issue with sweet tea is. Do you dislike cold tea? Is it too sweet? Have you had a bitter glass that turned you off on it? What about cocktails? What about in cocktails or desserts? I also like to use tea flavor in meat marinades occasionally. I get it. There's bad sweet tea, but please help me change your mind. I'll do whatever I can, all the best, Andrew. All right. Here's what I don't like, Andrew. Like, I have no problem with cold. I like cold tea. I like cold tea with a modicum of sugar. I think the issue is, is that like, uh, let's say I was going to uh, North Carolina barbecue joint Eastern, of course, because I don't put tomato in
+
+[30:40] my, in my, uh, pork, whatever. Anyway, I'm not going to get off. I want to get you upset because I don't know where in North Carolina you're from. But the stuff that I enjoy the most. I enjoy all North Carolina barbecue, which is, of course,
+
+[30:52] pork, and, of course, with thin sauce, vinegar base. I enjoy it all, but I enjoy mostly the more coastal variety that is fundamentally just like
+
+[31:03] pepper, vinegar and meat. Like that's like my style. Now, if you're going to go to one of those kind of restaurants in Raleigh or wherever you're going to
+
+[31:12] go, and they have those kind of, I'm looking at them right now, those kind of amber colored plastic pebbly glasses, everyone knows what I'm talking about, right? With those things. And they have a jug of what amounts to simple syrup with tea in
+
+[31:26] it, and they pour it, and there's not even any acid, because some of these places will not. I know, I know, I know. Now, some of these places won't put it like lemon, even like next to it or with it, and you're just consuming simple syrup tea.
+
+[31:39] I'm like, because I am a thirsty man. I am a thirsty man. Like, that is something that I could enjoy, like, take, for instance, I like overly sweet mint tea, like, uh, like Moroccan
+
+[31:52] style, or like, you know, like, you know, in Paris, they have those, uh, like those Moroccan
+
+[31:56] tea mint tea joints, Peter. Yeah, you like those? He's he's shaking his head as though you can see his headshake on a microphone. But like the point being that I like sweet tea things in tiny
+
+[32:08] amounts. Like, same way that I like sweet beverages in tiny amounts. That's why cocktails, which are relatively small, can have some sugar in them without freaking me out, but when I am thirsty, I want to pound
+
+[32:20] huge Trump style quantities of liquids. And so I require them to be not sweet. So, iced tea that's a lot lower on sugar. I'm okay with. I like it with a little lemon in it. That's just me. So it's not, I should say, it's not the idea of cold tea that I have a problem with. It's overly, overly sweet tea, Joe. What are your feelings on this? I agree with you. I don't like it too sweet either. But do you find that a lot of places will serve it too sweet? Way too sweet. Way too sweet, right? Too much sugar. Too much too much freaking sugar. Too much sugar is not good for you. Well, I mean, like I said, I've said before, my health, you know, you know, I just don't like it. That's my thing. Styles, do you like cold, you like iced tea? No not really. Wow. Well, Andrew can hate on you. but what do you not like about it? I don't prefer it. I prefer drinking it. Don't prefer drinking it. Yeah. What does that mean? Like I wouldn't choose it. Like over nothing? Over nothing sure, I'll drink it. All right. Peter, sweet tea? Ah, not my, not really my jam. Deep, but like, look, I can appreciate Andrew's position here as a cultural thing. It's like, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I, when I, you know, not too sweet. That's all. You like okay, whatever. guys are the worst. Brandon writes in. Hi, Nastasia. Follow up. I sent my last email before listening to the episode that. I shouldn't have read that because you don't know what he's talking about. Something to add to the discussion about tropical tasting fruits that grow in temperate regions. So this is, uh, we were talking about the may apple, which is the jelly I make where, actually, that jelly was delicious. Did I bring the jelly in or just the raw fruit for you guys to taste? I think it's just the raw fruit. Nastasi wouldn't taste it because she got no stones, no stones, not willing to risk her life for good tasting materials. Anyway, this episode is really, this is really, like, comment, considering that episode is in June, but I figured that Nastasia and Dave and the
+
+[34:13] gang did not mention the pawpaw tree. If you have not heard of it, The pawpaw is native to a large portion of the United States, and as to my knowledge, one of the only truly tropical like fruits that grows in the temperate regions of the
+
+[34:25] U.S. In size, shape, and texture is similar to a mango, but the taste is kind of a cross between a mango and a banana. Pretty delicious but very difficult to find. Well, I do know about them, but I haven't really had a lot because they're very hard to ship. I am only fortuous enough to have tried it because my architecture and landscape firm specified it in one of our
+
+[34:43] projects. I don't have any questions. I'm just writing to share and figure you all be interested in one of the most under the radar delicious fruits
+
+[34:48] that is native to the US. So look, about a month ago, I didn't know you were doing this. I call this guy who has these pawpaw nurseries, but the problem is, is that I couldn't find someone who had
+
+[34:57] ship me a good pawpaw tree because I'm planning on planting some to see how they, to see how they work. You have paw paws, Joe? No, in Connecticut, are you doing that? Yeah, yeah. They grow in Connecticut. They grow, like, like, you know, like Brandon was saying, they grow in most of the temperate regions. They don't ship very well. Like they're very soft and they don't chip very well. And I think they're relatively polarizing, and the cultivars are relatively different. So it's kind of hard to get
+
+[35:23] people to, you know, get into it as
+
+[35:28] a commercial fruit. But yes, I plan on, uh, sampling, uh, paw paws. You ever, what about you, Peter? You got any paw paws? Your parents are now in tropical fruit land? Not tropical, like California style subtropical fruit. Where they live now? Outside San Diego. Of course me. Weather's nice, me. I told you, there are studies that show that after 2 years, you don't give a crap about the weather anymore. Like if someone asks you, is the weather nice where you are? You'd be like, yeah, I love it. But like, you don't rate yourself as happier because the weather is nice. Nastasia, do you hate? do you hate good weather because it makes people soft. Is that why you don't like, is that why you like it here? Or is it that you just don't like the people in California? And that's why you moved over here. I don't like the people in California. Wow. All you Californians out there. I like you. But Nastasia, not so much. Right? Yeah. Anyway. Uh, and she's from there. So it's like one of those things where, you know, I always think self-hate's a little weird, but, you know, you can't get down on someone for the self-hate. Can you? Are you allowed to make fun of someone for self-hat? don't know. Peter, what are you? what are your feelings? I feel that you're allowed to have a lot of self-loathing like when you're in college. I feel that's what college is about. Like teenage years, the adolescence is about like becoming a better person through self-loathing, but I think I feel you should grow out of it.
+
+[36:48] What do you think, Peter? No, Joe, self-loathing? I think it's more like after college you go through that phase, you know, when you're trying to find yourself or whatever. Yeah. Well, then you come out of it. Then you self-loathe for self-loathing. and that's... multi-layered. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, why am I 36 and still self-clothing? No, you tell me. You tell me. I'm sure it has something to do with the museum of food and drink. Zing. It's funny because it's true. All right. So I guess Davey just answered the question. It's okay to make fun of people who self-loath. Learn by doing. How do you feel now? You've got a big smile on your face. So there's the answer. Hey, look, you know what? Peter can take it. That's why I like working with him. I don't like working with people who can't take it. Do you know what I'm saying? What do you think, Stas? What do you think about people that working with people that can't take it? I don't like it. don't like it. crying thing, the whole, like, I need therapy thing. Oh, man, no, that's not right. If someone needs help. Yeah, that's not right. I just like working with people that can give and get. I don't like people that can ditch it out and can't take it. God knows I take enough. God knows I dish enough out. Right? Stas is shaking her head up and down. All right, listen. So we had some more information on the butter question we had before. So to, to, you know, tell you what happened. we had a James from Cafe Bezalou in, I think, Seattle. was having a problem with batch to batch. His butter was brittle, you know, his butter was brittle. So he couldn't make like puff pastry or croissant or anything like this because as he was stretching the dough, the butter would shatter into pieces and wouldn't stretch along with the dough,
+
+[38:40] right? And so, uh, you know, he had thought that it had something to do with, um, maybe the feet of the animal
+
+[38:48] or, or, you know, the crystal size. So I wrote to Professor Doug Goff, who is like, you know, one of the big wigs does the ice cream stuff at the University of Guelph. Is that how you pronounce that place? Guelph? Guelph? Guelph, Guelph, Guelph, Guelph, Guelph. Anyway, they have great dairy pages. And I've read them for many years. I really enjoy them. And so I wrote him and I gave him the question and here's what he wrote. He wrote, hey, Dave, I forwarded your question to one of our faculty members with expertise in lipid technology, which is a fantastic thing.
+
+[39:21] I did not hear from the lipid technologist, which would be a fantastic
+
+[39:24] title, lipid technologist. So you may see a reply from him, but he tells me, which I did not. He tells me that from his experience, this is not uncommon. brittle brittle butter problem. Say that with a stupid voice, Peter. You're good at that. I'm not doing Chap, man. Come on, man. Say it in your in your, I'm announcing the puffing gun voice. Brittle butter. Do you have a good, like, weird announcer word? I do. You do. You know what I'm talking about, Nastasium. That's more like me at the beginning of the top of the show. Yeah I know. You know what, Dax, every once in a while, like, it's like, uh, do the do the beginning of the show? I'm like, no, I'm in the middle of, like, the house. I can't scream. We have neighbors. Anyway, he tells me from experience that this is not uncommon. It is most likely related to fat crystal size and structure within the butter rather than composition variation. When butter is manufactured. One of the objectives of cream tempering, churning, and working is to achieve very small fat crystals, which then relates to smoother texture,
+
+[40:31] consistency and pliability. The exact temperatures and times of these stages does relate to composition, and that can vary by feed, etc. After manufacture, many factors, including temperature variation during storage, delivery, and or the age of the butter, and that's also important, the age of the butter. And I'll get more on that later, can cause an increase in fat crystal size. As this happens, butter becomes progressively more coarse in texture and brittle in structure. Think about melting butter to oil and then putting it in the refrigerator to recrystallize. You get a very hard, brittle lump because it was not properly churned and worked. This would be the extreme. So the variation in quality is structure slash texture
+
+[41:09] related and not really primarily uh, difference in the different kinds of triglycerides that are in the uh, butter. So he says, I hope this helps. Doug off. It did help. So I wrote Emma and said, thank you, professor. And then I said this. I said, I'll let you know if I hear from your colleague, which I did not. I'm pondering your response, in pondering your response, this is me. I wonder whether mechanical manipulation could help. Whenever I'm going to use butter and biscuits or cake and don't have time to let it temper. I beat it repeatedly with a rolling pin. I've always noticed it just plasticizes the butter. How much of that change is frictional heating, probably only a small amount. I do not know. Could the effect of beating the cold butter help these folks, i.e. uh, you know, you guys, a
+
+[41:51] cafe bezelou, um, Or is the effect too macro and wouldn't help them on the smaller scale of a puff paste?
+
+[41:59] And he said, that might help, Dave, could be worth a try at least. So I would try taking some of the butter that is not working properly and beating
+
+[42:07] the beating the bejesus out of it. But then I saw an article which is available free of charge on the
+
+[42:14] internet that you need to read called the effective factors. Get ready, write this one down. The effective factors on the structure of butter and other milk fat-based products by
+
+[42:24] Stein, I guess, how do you pronounce the L with a slash through it? Oh, right? Roon Holt. R, over the slash through it, N-O-L, uh, N-H-O-L-T. September 2013. This article is terrible in the sense that what they really care about is producing lower fat butter,
+
+[42:42] which, as we all know, is a horrible idea, horrible, horrible. But it's a good article in that it talks about every stage step by step in what it does to fact crystal
+
+[42:52] size and it has the extreme advantage of being available on the internet.
+
+[42:56] So as you store butter and the temperature goes up. Like, let's say it's been tempered up to 20 and then recooled and done a bunch of
+
+[43:04] times. The, um, the, a lot of the smaller crystals and the ones with the, um, lower melting points will melt out to a liquid, even though the butter maintains its solid
+
+[43:14] state, and then on recrystallization slowly in the fridge will get progressively larger crystals, which may be
+
+[43:19] causing uh, some brittleness. Crystal size just increases with time as butter ages in the fridge. So maybe the brittle butter is older butter. But maybe beating the heck out of it actually might help. So they're going to kick us off the air in a minute, but Nastasia and I, actually, I think Nastasia actually enjoyed this trip, which is unusual. Nastasi usually hates most everything. We went to Saratoga Springs. Joe, you ever been to Saratoga Springs? for the horse racing or for the water. I've been there during the horse racing time, but I didn't go to the horse. What were you doing there? Just with my wife and children. Did you try the waters? Did you go to the spa state park? I did not go to the spa state. Oh my goodness. Peter, have you ever been to Saratoga Springs? No. I'm going to go back because so here's the deal. They have, in Saratoga Springs, their naturally carbonated water comes out of the ground. I want that to sink in for a minute. Naturally carbonated water comes out of the ground. So, uh, And the naturally carbonated water is actually very highly mineralized in sailing.
+
+[44:19] So Nastasia, Ariel, who was on the show last week, and my brother-in-law, Travis, who was
+
+[44:25] shooting, shooting it for, because we're supposed to write something for Lucky Peach. We went and tasted every one of the natural springs in Saratoga. The one in the race course was closed. We couldn't go to it. which was the other one. Lake. Oh, yeah, there was one in a lake. I went back there later this day afternoon with bathing shorts on and I just couldn't bring myself to wade in. long were you there? I stayed. I figure, how often do I get to go there? I went and retasted a lot of the waters. Uh, anyway, so like this water is pretty amazing because, uh, it's very old, very deep groundwater that is super heavily mineralized
+
+[45:00] in saline and it gets forced up to the surface, close to the
+
+[45:04] surface through a fault, uh, that runs down through Saratoga that's relatively
+
+[45:08] recent. The fault has a CO2 coming all the way from the mantle that goes up and pushes the stuff up and charges. And as it comes up, it's mixing with more recent, like, kind of recharge rainwater, meteoric water. And there's a, the interesting thing is there's a shale layer at the top of the ground there that caps it all
+
+[45:27] in. So it's all under pressure. So when you bore down in, itself pumps itself up. So it's not, strictly speaking, an artesian well, like you would get, where you're actually digging a well where the head of the well is below the water table and you're recharging from a mountain, let's say, it's literally getting forced up and carbonated from below, but unlike a lot of carbonated springs, it's also
+
+[45:47] cool. It's at 50 degrees Fahrenheit. And I think they're delicious. Stas, you liked it too, right? I brought your bottle, by the way. I think they're delicious. They're super highly mineralized. I made a margarita with the strongest of the waters yesterday. I want to go back, but I have a plea for any all 99, almost all. In fact, maybe all in the United States, naturally carbonated springs are in the West, where there's more thermal activity. But if anyone here, I know there's some in Colorado. I know there's some in California, if any of you live near a naturally carbonated spring, and for some reason you like us, just get a seltzer bottle, like a water, like a carbonated water bottle, fill it up all the way, all the way, because otherwise you lose too much
+
+[46:30] food, partial pressure, cap it, and send it to us, and we'll taste and talk about your water on
+
+[46:34] the air. I'm super interested in tasting just various naturally carbonated waters from
+
+[46:39] all over the country. But more on Saratoga when I write it up for Lucky Peach and go visit Saratoga. Good place. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Peter. See you next time. Cooking issues.
+
+[46:57] Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradionetwork.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network as a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolty, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from, like, well, this time, like 1215, like, yeah, like one o'clock on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria,
+
+[0:42] where, Peter? Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn did? Oh, and Roberta's. Dude, what's the neighborhood in Brooklyn where we are? Bushwick. Well, as you can tell, joined by an ever peppy. Peter Kim, grand vizier of the Museum of Food and Drink, got Dave in the booth. How you doing? What up, doing good? All right, good. And we have Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez next to me. How you doing? Good. So calling your questions, museum related, perhaps or not. Uh, 2718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Uh, so yesterday was the 1st day in the closing week festivities of
+
+[1:29] uh, Booker and Dax, the bar. And uh, man. I think people had a good time, but man, was it a poop show. We like 86 everything like right away. Like they took the chairs out, so like the bar was 3 deep. Uh, and, uh, It turns out that, I don't know how to operate the PLS system. Like, all these drinks just, like, it was just like, uh, I think it was good, though. People had a good time. We had the 86 a bunch of stuff. Um, but uh, last night we had uh, D came back to, you know, our manager, D
+
+[2:01] Canonas came back uh, as a guest bartender. We had, um, Ann Robinson came back. Jesse Vita came back. Austin Henley came back and told me an interesting story about, uh, you will enjoy this, Nastasia, about, um, Damon Bolty. I didn't guess I didn't, I knew it, but I didn't think about it. Teague, who's coming tonight, by the way. So if you come tonight, we have like Nick Bennett, Souther Teague,
+
+[2:27] coming tonight to Booker Index. Who else? Dana Corey. I forget who I'm not. I'm not mentioning a couple of people. I got to look at Nastasio look at the list maybe if she feels like it. She doesn't. She doesn't. And tomorrow we have David Wondridge and uh, Leo Rovachek and uh, Don Lee coming uh, to the bar. So look out for that. But anyway, so Austin says to me, Austin says, so I was doing Damon
+
+[2:56] Sho at Roberta's with Southern co-hosts, right? Yeah, so he's doing the show and, you know, Damon Bolty's identical twin, which you talk about a lot and stuff. You like that factor. Whenever you mention David Bolt, you mention the identical twinness. And there are too many freaking food and drink identical twins in the New York City area. There's just too many of them. It's crazy, right? I mean, like, in other words, I have not met an identical twin that doesn't have one of the twins working in the food
+
+[3:21] business. Someone needs to do a study on this. Have you met any identical twins, Peter, that are not in the food business? Is it because we only know people in the food business? You know lawyer people. Nastasi, you know like weirdos, weird non-food people, right? Do you know any identical twins in that scenario? I know one. I think about it. know one. Medicine. And architecture. Not food. Anyway. So David Boldy's twin comes in and apparently everyone Roberta's like, hey, what's up? He totally ignores and pulls Anastasia, like sour face and blast, right past him? And then when Damon walks in, everyone's like, Damon, wow, you such a dirk man. He's like, that was my twin. That was a good story, right? Good times. Anyway, so, uh, also turns that, also turns out, went back to Booker Index. The jerks that live above Booker and Dax, like haven't lived there as long as the bar has existed and start complaining at like 11 and smashing things into the floor to tell us to be
+
+[4:18] quiet. Now, I don't know about you, but you don't turn, blow the whistle down. You know what I mean? If you're playing blow the whistle or any one of those other songs and you're mixing drinks and your
+
+[4:28] bar is 3 deep, the correct response is not, turn the music down, the correct response is, don't move to New York and live above a
+
+[4:35] bar, more on. You know what I mean? Idiot. Who does that? Like, that's what I hate about New Yorkers. Like, not New York. real, like, you just wouldn't move, if, if, you, you are not entitled to change the people who already exist around you. You know what I mean? You move into a place. The place is bad because there is, uh, it's not
+
+[4:56] like, it's not like all of a sudden. Okay, look, I've done this a bunch of times, right? I'll move into a place and the person who lived in my apartment before me is was like an 85 year old woman who lived alone and never had any visitors because her kids never came to visit her
+
+[5:11] anymore. She made 0 noise her entire life. like, you know, I don't know, didn't watch TV, no cable, nothing, no noise, nothing. She dies, we move in with, like, the kids and me and, you know, the dinner parties, the family dinner and all this
+
+[5:27] stuff, and everyone gets mad. And you know what? I kind of understand that, except for you live in New York. Like, you're not entitled. to your kind of super quiet privacy, nice life. That's why it's New York. Nastasi, what do you think about this? I think yeah. I mean, like, do you, I mean, like, there's bounds of rationality, but, like, living directly above a bar that you moved into. Did they move in after you were there? Yes. All right, well then... Yeah. Living in the city. trade-offs. Well, it's not a trade. like, just like, you know, understand what you're dealing with when you move in. You know what I mean? Like some people shouldn't live in the city. Like, apparently, these frat weasels who moved into this, like, I think there's like 30 of them living in this
+
+[6:13] apartment, uh, going all against frat people. you know what I'm saying? 30 of them living in his place above us. And then, uh, I don't know, whatever. Just suck it up, you know that? whatever. So anyway, Peter, you're on here to push the museum of food and drink. The only reason why I ever come on. Was that? Yeah. So we need it in one day. Right. So we just need 2 cooking issues listeners to donate 5000 each. Yeah, and even beyond that, it's the last chance to get tickets to see the exhibition before it opens to the
+
+[6:45] public. And so it's going on till 8 p.m. tomorrow, and we need to cross the finish line of $80,000 by tomorrow. Um, I'm super psyched by the exhibition. We're going to have, I mean, just a recap, we're going to have the fortune cookie machine. have tastings. We'll be demonstrating some different techniques in Chinese American cuisine. We'll have some awesome menus, giant wall, takeout boxes. Um, so yeah, it's gonna be like just, you know, awesome show. And so get your tickets on chow.mofed.org. And we're going to we're going to chain Peter or something. You can just pillory him. Like, that's going to be one of the things we will set up a dunk tank with Peter in it. Wouldn't that be awesome? Oh my god, Peter, you should totally do that. Like a Peter Kim dunk tank. You think we can make? How is that Chinese? I don't know. It has nothing to do with that. It's like part of the little side. If somebody puts in $10,000, I will set up a dunk tank. You heard anything. Will you get in it, Dave? Hell no. I will set up a... I'll get in. I'm sure I'll get... Family show. I said bleeping. Pretty soon, actually, we have the non-family show from Johnny Walker coming up. I've got to talk about this. By way, Nastasia, you'll enjoy this. The name, this Latin name for, you know, the beans with beans. You familiar with it? going to enjoy it. Physiolis vulgaris. like that? All right. Let me get to you some get to some questions if I wasn't smart enough to pull them up. Okay. Um, this is from Shy. It is well known that old beans take longer to cook. than young beans. Why is that? Well, I thought I knew the answer to this question. And it turns out that I don't know the answer to this question. You know, you think it's just kind of a moisture thing, but, um,
+
+[8:27] that doesn't really, I don't think, explain
+
+[8:31] what's going on. Then I did an initial search on the internets and like every manufacturer and like council that tries to sell dried beans will tell you if you store the beans too long, they
+
+[8:47] say in quotes, they will never soften. Now, I know that's garbage because you can pressure the heck out of them and soften them. You can add baking soda and soften them. But then I realized I didn't understand. It's not simply that it's drying out. Something else is happening. So I have to, the short answer is I have to go, um, I have to go look it up. And, you know, I'll have to go do some sort of, you know, a scientific search on the order of, um, um, you know, dry beans,
+
+[9:16] storage, ch- storage changes. Like, it's always like people who have the money for these sorts of studies are always kind of big industrial
+
+[9:23] concerns. And so you always add things like storage, shelf life, dried
+
+[9:27] beans. You try to phrase your searches. This is it, by the way, anyone who actually wants to find their own info, right? found out from Ariel Johnson, who was here a couple
+
+[9:41] weeks ago, that there's a website, and I'm sure, you know, all of you guys, all you cool kids out
+
+[9:46] there already know about it. But it's, and I don't know, like how legal slash illegal it is, but I'm going to give you guys this website in case you don't already
+
+[9:57] have it. It's Psi, like science, SCI dash hub, H-U-B dot
+
+[10:05] CC. Okay? That's SCI dash H-U-B dot cc. And um, this website allows you to download any, almost any scientific paper that is behind a normal, like university firewall.
+
+[10:22] Now, it's not as easy to use as a, you know, university thing because you need a record called the DOI.
+
+[10:30] Now, what a DOI, I don't actually know what it stands for, but it's a long, long identifier that uniquely identifies a particular
+
+[10:41] article. Okay? So how do you get that? So many, many, many of the either the university search engines or even the actual database
+
+[10:50] owners, like Wiley or El Sevier or these guys, will allow you to search and get the abstracts. And oftentimes you can get this identifier in the abstract, cut and paste it into the
+
+[11:03] PsyHub page, and boom, the paper pops up. Now, the legality, nah, I haven't looked it up. I don't know. What do you think, Peter? If I don't know, is it okay? Can I, can I go, can I go, like, Tom Woodick on this if I have no idea whether it's illegal or not? It's okay to use it. You're the lawyer. I think you get one free pass. That's my official legal opinion. Do I get a lifetime free pass on the on using this one thing? Like in other words, like, I don't know if this is illegal. I'm not gonna look it up. Anyway, it's a fantastic way to go get it. So, um, when you are searching for things, in general, the way to find information is to think about, think about your problem and try to cast it in the most industrial light
+
+[11:44] possible. So any sort of thing that you think that Campbell's soup might care about or anything that you think that, you know, Nabisco might care
+
+[11:55] about, because these are the people that have money to pay for these kinds of studies. And that's in general how I find it. So I will, this week is extremely tough for me because the bar closing stuff, but I'm going to try to look up more on that because it leads me to another
+
+[12:09] thing. When I realized that I had no idea, uh, what was um, going on with the dried beans. It also led me to, and also talking to, and thinking about, you know, the time that Booker and Dax has been
+
+[12:23] open and every time I've been cooking is a concept of drift. And so, and I've been thinking a lot about it recently. So you get drift in your whole life. And what does that mean? So you have like, you come up with a recipe, you come up with a, with a technique, you implement it, you teach it, then that goes on autopilot, and just like a game of telephone, when you were a kid, you know, eventually there is drift in that
+
+[12:49] technique and there's drift in the, in the end product. And so when you're running a restaurant, Or when you're running a bar, you know, you have to be, you have to set things in place to prevent your products, your techniques, your recipes from drifting too far from, you know, from where you
+
+[13:10] started. Often, I mean, sometimes drift is good. Sometimes you start with something and the drift actually makes it better. Most of the time that's not the case. And even if it did make it better, you want to know why and then codify that. So I think, you know, a lot of, um, what I've been thinking about is that that kind of drift and control. And that's, I think, a couple weeks ago, we talked about the Eric repair story, Anastasia, where, you know, he has a very specific thing that will never drift, craft, Swiss cheese, and so they use that craft Swiss cheese, because that's palette drift.
+
+[13:39] That's about your drift of palates over time and change, right? And so kind of locking into one idea to increase consistency. But the same is true. Same drift happens in your own mind. So most of the time, like, I know this is, you know, applies to me, especially, or anyone that, you know, works on a problem for a small amount of
+
+[13:57] time and then compartmentalizes that and then puts it away, right? And then you tend to think, oh, I solve that problem. And Nastasia, you know this better than anyone. You've heard me say the same dang explanations like a 1000000000 times and demo to demo to demo. The problem is, is that most of the time, like your actual, you haven't done enough actual work at that beginning section to actually get the real answer,
+
+[14:21] right? And you only marginally understand what you're talking about when you're actually doing all the
+
+[14:26] hardcore work. So then like two, three, 4 years later, right? All you have left in your head are the results, and you don't remember any of the caveats, to the research that had you come up with those results, typically. So you'll think you have an idea locked down. And in fact, over the years if you don't revisit it and look back into it again, it turns out you know almost nothing at this point. And so, you know, trying to, one of the reasons this show is helpful for me
+
+[14:52] personally to do it is that people ask me questions that make me
+
+[14:56] re-examine, and Harold McGee is awesome at this stuff, constantly re-examining things that you hold, deer or hold as just kind of
+
+[15:04] truths, and re-examining them down to a base level to try to re-understand what you're doing. And because
+
+[15:12] almost, almost always, you know, you were wrong about something. You were wrong about some of your premises or something like that. So the bean thing got me thinking on that because it was something that, you know, I thought about a long time ago.
+
+[15:24] Oh yeah, they dry they dry out as they get older, they get harder to cook. Clearly there's more going on and I need to go freaking research that thing. And in fact, almost all the questions this week are of that variety, things that I thought I knew something about. And then I looked into it only marginally, feeling that I could just come back with a quick snappy doodle
+
+[15:44] answer, and it turns out it's a much more complicated problem. I mean, if you leave a dried bean out, like, what humidity level does it get to at the end of the eventually? Well, that's the thing, right? Let's say you live in, and this is something I don't know. Let's say you live in New Orleans, which is, you know, I don't know, not
+
+[16:00] swamp, that's overstating it, but it's humid, right? So is it going to equilibrate to, in other words, even in a sealed environment where you're not, where you're not losing a lot of moisture, right? I think the beans, they change over time. There's I think there's a structural thing going on, right? So, increased moisture absorption. If it's just moisture, this could be overcome relatively quicker quickly with a longer cooking time. Or perhaps, let's say, you know, you're a believer in this current no soak thing,
+
+[16:29] a soak, to increase or to retemper back up. But there's no indication on the dry bean. If that was the case, the dry bean council people would say, if you had some old beans, put like a moistened paper tally with the old beans for like a couple of weeks and then they'll be good as new again. That's how the bean council talks. Have you have you met the Bean Council? But that is, in fact, not what they say. I mean, now, look, the other thing you have to be very careful of is downloading the new iOS on your phone because it no longer freaking works. I'm trying to reopen the question. What you have to be careful of is that the Bean council has a vested interest in you throwing away your old beans and buying new ones. In reality, though, what they should do is tell you how to fix your old
+
+[17:08] beans, because if you fix your old beans and have success, you'd be like, you know what? I actually enjoy cooking dry beans. I will purchase more dry beans. You know what I mean? Where instead you're like, they tell me I should throw it away. I'm going to get this package of beans. I'm never going to cook it. Then it's going to get too hard. I'm not going to know whether or not it's still good. I not going to sit around and try to cook these dried beans, and then they don't soften, and then what? dinner's ruined? No. And then they throw it away and they never buy dry beans again. See? That's my feeling. My feeling is is that if something appears like it's in your best interest, get people to throw away and buy fresh
+
+[17:38] beans. Sometimes it's not in your best interest. Maybe there's an advantage. To what? The old beans? Yeah, yeah, you never know. Well, it's like often, like we have a question coming up soon on staling. And that, you know, so that's that's true. I love staled bread for other things. We'll get to that in a minute. About the new iOS. Have you downloaded it, Estasia? not allowed to. Please don't. Like, I can't, I was at a wedding on Sunday, and I'm like, oh, and my phone has been pestering me for weeks. Oh, update. Why do you update? You're going to sleep now. I could tell, can I update now? you're like, fine, fine. Jeez, jeez, you hit it. It updates. And then it no longer operates like a, this is why I thought that when Steve Jobs died, that I would be free of this sort of like tyranny of,
+
+[18:22] of, of, yeah, enforced changes to the way that I use my device. The worst is like, unless you do something, it's going to update 30 seconds. Yeah, right. So the ghost of Steve Jobs came back and caused me to not get pictures of my friend's wedding because I gotten used to the fact that I could
+
+[18:38] go shaboom and I take my phone and it turns into a camera instantly. I went, I did that, and then, like, sprays a bunch of garbage on the top of my screen is, like, press a button to continue. And then I pressed a button, but I obviously I pressed it too long. And series, like, may I help you? I was like, well, can you take the picture of the, you know, the bride that I wanted freaking 10 seconds ago and not have it look like I'm texting during the middle of a wedding
+
+[19:00] ceremony by typing on my phone like a lunatic? She was like, I don't understand you, Dave. You know what I mean? Jerks. Jerks. Anyway, so... I heard about that, man. What a jerk, man. Texting in the middle of the... I know it. What kind of an what kind of a jerk shows up. It's a small wedding, too. It's like, you don't want, it's not like, wait, man. It's an important moment. Yeah. It's not like the lady die wedding where I'm one of like 8000000000 people. No one's like, you know, who's that idiot texting and then they draw a beat on me like the snipers draw a beat on me or something like this. You know what I mean? The best thing is it wasn't just like it looked like you were texting somebody, but having a really angry Texas guy with somebody. Oh, yeah, because you know what my face was looking at. I know exactly. Everyone else has, like, has this, like, you know, joy and like, and then I have this, like... Yeah, I've got like, I'm trying to use my eyes to drill holes through my telephone. Yeah. Nightmare. Okay, shy 2nd question. Additionally, how? And why? What? Why? Does the starch de gelatinization? I assume you mean recrystallization in stale bread cause it to have a chewy texture, and is this similar to moisture loss from worm bread exposed to the
+
+[20:06] air worm? Uh, which can also lead to such texture, many things shy. No, so moisture, like staling is not moisture loss. And again, bread staling is a very, I'm going to do the Trump sniff from now on. Yeah, staling of bread is not primarily a... Dave, you're going to jail. Ava. Yes. But yes. Anyway, the staling is not... I mean, I'm sorry, like it's not a political show, but that debate was impossible to watch. If you were on either side of the fence, that debate was like so cringeworthy, right? I mean, weren't you just like, the whole time I was like, oh, this is my country. Right? Did you watch it, Peter? What were you like? Again, like not, like, don't talk about your political side, anything, but how do you feel? The whole thing is just painful. I mean, ideally what you want is just actual debate on the merits of things that matter. Yeah, no, we're beyond that. What we beyond that. We're beyond that. I think, but the thing is, I hate this in-between thing that's like watching like, you know, it's like watching, you know, meet the parents. It's just uncomfortable. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, some of the moments are funny, but it's an uncomfortable funny that makes me want to put my head in a paper
+
+[21:24] bag. You know what I mean? It's like, we just need to have like a Jell-O match between these two. It's a joke. I mean, it's the kind of thing that people in other countries could point to and say like, yeah, I mean, it's just a total circus. Yeah, yeah. And it's the kind of thing that like John Stewart used to like make fun of other countries. and like, look at the parliament of blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? And like, look at the fistfighter, the parliament. aren't these people funny? Well, now it's us. You know what I mean? It's like, wow. Anyway, so uh, bread staling is not primarily a moisture loss, but and I remember... So I went to my, you know, my wife is very anxious for me to finish, and Nastasia is very anxious for me to finish the 2nd book that I'm supposed to be working on.
+
+[22:04] So I, uh, I was like, how about this? The importance of moisture management. And Jen's like, Jen's like, are you an idiot? Or what kind of a moron? No one's going to buy a book on moisture management. And I was like, I was like, but Nastasia, I mean, Anastasia, because you also had the look. I was thinking to you now, because Nastasi's giving me the moisture management look, which is very close to the vegan face. giving Peter the moisture manager. Oh moisture. Anyway, so I was like, you know, I was telling my wife, I was like, look at, and telling you guys on the air, like, such a huge percentage of cooking problems in the world are moisture management problems.
+
+[22:43] So everyone's like, why did, you know, why is the crust of the meat? Why is the skin bad? Because you don't know how to handle moisture management. Like, why is it, why is what's wrong with the bread? You have no understanding of moisture management. What's wrong with my pizza? Moisture management. I don't want Maria to, I want to get. I want to capture that look on her face. If I tell her, if I told my, if I told my editor, my, at the publisher at Norton, if I was like, hey, Maria, check this out for a book. How about this? The miracle of moisture management. It's all about that. So like people, like they think that they, they think that they can put like an instantaneous crust on the outside of something and then it's going to be good. No, you haven't removed enough moisture from the crust area to get it right. Like, what's wrong with my fried foods? You haven't managed, like, you haven't managed the balance between moist and non-moist. Same with potato chips, French fries, like almost anything that isn't a
+
+[23:38] braise, and even braises have moisture management problems. cooking, cooking beans, cooking starches. Like why bread's stale in the 1st place, whether they'll go stale quickly is moisture management in the dough, right? And then how it stales itself is also a matter of moisture management as it goes out. So the miracle of moisture management, it turns out that no one thinks that that will sell. sells even less than cocktail books, which, you know, don't sell that well. But you know what I mean? your history of writing books will be liquid intelligence and then moisture management.
+
+[24:13] Yeah. The miracle. The miracle of moisture management. That's going to be on like the $10 shelf management. $10 shelf. Do you remember when Borders used to exist and they had the like the $3, but it was a giant $3 book about like World War 2 airplanes? You could also get all sentimental, you know, thinking about like why my face is so
+
+[24:34] tear stricken after our work meetings. It's a miracle of moisture management. Me managing your moisture. Exactly that. By the way, people, in meetings, I am the worst. I am the worst. I am the most inflexible weasel. in in a meeting. Like, the thing is, is that we have these meetings at the Museum of Food and
+
+[24:55] Drink, where we're talking about the exhibition, and, and so Peter, here comes the most. So we're all sitting around this table, right? We're sitting around this table and we're trying to figure out how to do the best exhibition given the parameters that we have to work with. And when Peter comes to tell me something that he knows, I'm going to disagree with, right? I can tell because here's what here's what Peter does. He walks up, sits down and goes,
+
+[25:24] And like deflates like half of his size. stares down at his like 50,000-year-old MacBook with half the keys
+
+[25:32] missing and it's like, you know, I can just see it. I can just see the shoulders go down a little bit. And I'm like, Peter, man, I'm not so bad. And then he says something, and in fact, I am. In fact, I am. You know what I mean? It's like, and I'm not evil. I'm just not, you know. Oh, there goes the... Overclipped. Anyways, but like the moisture management. So, you know, it works with your colleagues, it works with your bread. Shattering dreams or shattering crust? Yeah, it's the same. So the deal is, what do you think, Dave? you think moisture management could be a book? No, right? I don't know. What about the miracle of moisture management? I mean, it does sound miraculous, but, you know, it's tough sell. It's got 3 M's in a row. What could be bad about 3 M's in a row? Yeah, everybody loves alliteration. Yeah, except for people. If you open something with the word country, do not spell it with a K, especially if there's a kitchen. You're two thirds of the way there. No good. Anyway, um, no color on the line if you want to take that next. Yeah, sure, let's do that. We'll talk about bread after we do the call. Call her, you're on the air. I did, this was Jeffrey in Costa Mesa, California. How you doing? How's it going? All right. All right. I'm one of the self-hating Californians. Sweet. Life is good. Nastasia got some blowback on my Twitter account, by the way, about the, who is it? Someone at Leapers was like, uh, California Hates U2, Nastasia. Strong. Give me a pound on that. Not true. Oh, nice. All right, go ahead. What you got for me? Wait, close to Mesa, isn't that where the bean place? Is that where they grow the beans? Is that where Rancho Gordo, Rancho, uh, later? Yeah, Rancho. Yeah, are they there? Is that where they are? Are you in Bean Man? Didn't catch the question. Oh, wait, like you said Custa Mesa, right? Is that where Rancho Gordo is? Is that where the beans are grown? Where is Costa Mesa? We're like south of Long Beach to south Los Angeles on the coast. Maybe, I don't know. All right, go ahead. I don't I don't believe we grow beans, but no. Oranges back in the day, but those are gone now. Really? Why? Because of the citrus greening or just because of economics? Or water? Too many people. Turns out people are worth more than oranges. No, we're not. Financial people seem to think. Um, yeah. Even in a drought, it's just pleasant here. kind of disgusting. Nice, nice. So I'm going to be installing. I'm going to be installing some foot pedal valves. Nice, good move. And the TNS brass ones. And my guys are kind of scratching their head on how to solve the problem. I know you'd mentioned before, there's a trick in basically allowing the hand cartridge valve to still work out the faucet.
+
+[28:21] So they're they're trying to figure out how to have the foot pedal valve still work when the cartridge
+
+[28:27] valve on the handle is in the closed position, how to how to sort of bypass that. All right, so I know that there's like a tea assembly that we need, but I'm wondering if you can give me some... So I've done this 2 ways. And I actually think the way that I did it, the 1st time was better. I'll tell you both ways. So, um, the, the way I originally did it and the way that I actually recommend is I physically separate out the, um, I separate the foot pedals from the, um, the hand
+
+[28:54] cartridge and I have them mix in the gooseneck. And so what you do there is you get like a the base faucet, right, which is either going to be wall or deck mounted. And then you actually, you don't use the weird swivel fitting there. You just literally put, you get all chrome, chrome, uh,
+
+[29:14] chrome tea fitting, and then, uh, chrome nipples. You get to choose the size, and then you screw them together. It's easiest if you're doing wall mount as opposed to deck, right? Because in a wall mount, your sink, the flanges on the sink go back to the wall, and then the tea can go back to the wall. You have to, and then you buy another flange, and you just work out
+
+[29:34] the size of the chrome nipple, and what you end up with is a triangular flange,
+
+[29:40] right? So you have instead of 2 flanges, going to the wall, you have 3 that go back. Then on the inside, once you mount it up, you screw
+
+[29:47] the, uh, you screw the connector in, and then you just go direct on a regular brass fitting, you go a
+
+[29:53] T into that 3rd T that goes into your gooseneck. And then that goes down with check valves to your foot pedals. And now your foot pedals operate completely independently of your foot cartridge.
+
+[30:05] It doesn't matter what's going on. That worked fantastically. On my new one, actually, the foot pedals still work fantastically on this one. On my new one, what I did was I bought a TNS unit that came with a sprayer
+
+[30:18] arm, right? Now, what I did there is I, the problem is most sprayer arms, right? What they do is they sense the pressure. And so if you if you push the spray arm and let water through there,
+
+[30:32] uh, like a flat valve comes down and shuts off the water to the uh, to the regular faucet head. And I don't know if that would work with this. The one that I bought, the way it works is, is both the sink head and the sprayer arm can work at the same
+
+[30:47] time and you have to push and rotate a valve to actually turn off the gooseneck. I hate this system. I hate it because pushing and turning is such a hassle. If it was one of those quarter turn cartridges, like that would be good. So what I'm looking to do now, you know, now it's a couple years later, is rip off the gooseneck that I have, and just screw another gooseneck on there and try to find an
+
+[31:09] actual something that will shut the flow off to the gooseneck that's just a quarter of a
+
+[31:13] turn and not some sort of push and twist like a childproof cap, which I freaking hate.
+
+[31:17] But the way that that one works is very easy on the hookup for the foot pedals because what you do, and that one is deck mounted. So what you do is you just put your deck mount down, and that TNS one is designed to have a feed in from the bottom that is the spray arm. So where the spray arm goes in, I think you might have to get an adapter. I forget, but you just screw the T right there and feed feeding into that T, right, is the mix from your foot pedals and also the spray arm. So it's super easy. It's super easy there because you have that central connector going in. But if you're going to use a spray arm, which I love the spray arm. You need to think of some better way to switch off the, to switch off the top of the, of the gooseneck. The problem with... Could you see a way that the 1st option could work in a deck mounted situation? It's possible. I didn't research it because I knew I was moving. I thought I had solved it with a deck mount sink that I bought, but the problem with TNS Brass is that, I mean, I love their stuff and like it lasts a long time and you can get all the parts for it, but it's not something in general that you can just walk into a plumbing house and get there.
+
+[32:27] It's better now. Like on Amazon, I think, carries some Tina stuff in K-Tom.com. Yeah, Web store has some of their... Yeah, and K-Tom does. The nice thing about K-Tom, at least it used to be, is, I think they're out of Florida, is that it used to be a pain in the butt because K-Tom had the best prices, and so I would call up TNS brass, and I would say, hey, and I would
+
+[32:47] spend like, you know, 45 minutes on the phone with them, asking about exactly which adapter am I going to use, blah, blah, blah,
+
+[32:52] blah, blah. And then I couldn't just order it from them because they don't do that way. And then I would call K-Tom and be at K-Tom, put in an order for this, and then they'd ship it out like a week later. Um, I don't know. I have to look at it and see whether there's some, uh, easy way. Well, it's there are easy ways. In other words, like, you could, they make just a flange, you can buy the flange, and then you can put the tea in. The problem is, is getting it to space nicely because if you're going to go deck and you want to drop that tea down, it's going to have to go tea and then over. So unless you want it to look completely whacked out nutty, right, you're
+
+[33:27] going to have to have a relatively deep deck because it's going to have to go out the back of your faucet and down. So now, instead of mounting just a regular, I don't know, probably like 2 inch flange or something like
+
+[33:38] that. you know, you need like a, you need like a 2.5 to 3 inch deck to mount it on, like now you're
+
+[33:44] going to need that deck plus, however, like whatever the closest you can space that tea over, which is
+
+[33:50] going to be at least an inch. So you're adding like at least an inch, probably closer to an inch and a half, you know, to the depth of your deck on the deck mount situation. And if you're willing to do that, it's like super easy. The one thing I don't know is I don't know. And once you do that, by the way, it's super easy to install the sprayer arm on it because now once you have a 3rd thing going down below the
+
+[34:14] deck that happens like after the cartridge mixing, then you can you can tee that into your foot pedals and into a sprayer arm. And if you're doing that, right? The sprayer arm functions either with your hand mixers or with your foot pedals. Um, the, the issue is, is that most TNS brass, um,
+
+[34:34] uh, shut off, like quarter turn shutoffs. This is what I used to have, right? What they do is, is they're designed to exclusively run a sprayer arm. And most of those situations are on dishwash pits. And in a dishwash pit, you're always using the sprayer arm and you have to tell it, hey, I want to use the
+
+[34:51] gooseneck. So, and that's the way I used to have it. But if you're okay with the look of that, then it's like very easy because you could just buy they buy a separate gooseneck that comes up. And it has the quarter turn shut off for the gooseneck. You leave that on all the time so the gooseneck is default on, right? And then, and so you can buy a deck mount, a deck mount faucet without the
+
+[35:13] gooseneck. You buy the add-on gooseneck, and then you have the tea that comes out and down, and then you buy the flange there and hook it into your spray arm and your foot
+
+[35:24] pedals, and you should be good to go. I actually got used to having kind of the weird industrial chrome looking faucet
+
+[35:30] thing and I actually loved it and liked it better than my system, but it's just a matter of mix and matching with all the
+
+[35:35] TNS brass stuff. Okay. Um, I think that's enough to help. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let us know how it works out. All right, thanks Dave. All right. So back to the stale bread. So, um, it's not uh, strictly moisture loss, it's happening, right? Uh, it's actually uh, the uh, starch, and it's, but that's the thing, again, it's more complicated. When I went back to look into it, The research has changed. have done additional research since the last time I looked at it. But in general, what you're looking at is the starches are recrystallizing to an
+
+[36:05] extent, and the moisture is migrating from the starch, sometimes to the proteins or into the matrix between where the starch used to
+
+[36:12] be. And for instance, reheating the bread can cause those things, you know, cause them to reabsorb some moisture, decrystallize and get good again.
+
+[36:21] once you do that, usually it turns to garbage quickly afterwards. But yeah, so it's more than just, it's more than just moisture loss. And by the way, the fact that it's a crystallization thing, if you think about it, this is why storing bread in the refrigerator makes you a complete enemy of
+
+[36:34] quality because you're increasing the crystallization rate by lowering the temperature of the bread.
+
+[36:40] That's why when you're freezing bread, you want to freeze bread right away, because when you freeze bread, it's the equivalent of the act of freezing it alone is the equivalent of at least a day's worth of just sitting out on your
+
+[36:50] counter, and you want to thaw it relatively rapidly. You want it to be in that evil fridge zone for as short a period of time as possible. All right. So before we get kicked off, we should handle some Halloween questions. I should have done this one 1st and we get the folks in the chat room on with this and maybe Nastasia has some idea because Nastasia is the queen of the Halloween and Christmas. I know what I'm going to say. I exactly know what you're going to say, and that's why I want you to talk about it. Um, This is from Matt. Uh, hi, uh, cooking issues crew. I am looking to make some Halloween slash spooky. Themed cocktails for Halloween. So 2 questions. I'm using Fresh Concord Grace, but don't really have a way of juicing them and getting the seed out. Any thought on that without the aid of a juicer or can I just blend it all and then clear it with some pectinace or whatever? Look, you can blend Concord grapes, but it's gonna, the seeds get bitter. So, like, if remember the time that we tried it and it was like, ah, gross. All the seed particles and the thing was just nasty. We used the Santa after that. Yeah, but then, like, when I've done it without the Santa, like, I've literally just mashed it, like,
+
+[37:52] like, uh, Lucille Ball making wine, uh, back in the, I love Lucy, you know what I mean? You mash the hell out of it, add your pectinace, uh, pectinace ultra SPL to the mash, and then just keep mashing it for a couple of hours, and eventually it will kind of liquefy, and then you press the stuff out in a sieve to get the juice out.
+
+[38:09] I don't remember that working very well. Well, your yield is not as high as what we got, but it's, you know, it's hard. those were delicious cocktails we made. Yeah, the other thing you do, if you have kids or interns, is get them to see the Dan grapes. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Then you can just blend the stuff. Those were delicious cocktails, but they were a pain. It was a pain. The Santa didn't crush the seeds, right? It's all a question of, of, of, yeah, but you lifted the, You jiggered it somehow. Well, yes. But the issue with mashing, it's hard. You need a, mashing is difficult because people want to try to,
+
+[38:49] you're mash efficiency goes way down as soon as the depth you're mashing in goes
+
+[38:54] deep and as soon as the area that the stuff you're mashing can move to goes wide.
+
+[39:00] So if you have a deep bucket and you put a masher in to try to mash something, then all of the whole
+
+[39:05] Concord grapes, just move out of the way of the masher as you push it through the stuff down the bottom. Women call men mashers back in the day. Mashers. Yeah, what does that mean? I don't know. I don't know I mean, it means like, it's like CAD. Do you know what I'm talking about? In those like cartoons? I thought we were talking about Concord grapes. I love that, you know, Nastasia? I appreciate that because that's like, that's an old school reference. Oh, yeah. It's always cool. And when I was a kid, I was like... Do you know how many things are in cartoons that you have no idea what they are and the kids still find them funny? Like, all the weird, like, topical references that nobody, like, do you remember when Yosemite Sam was, uh,
+
+[39:43] remember when Bugs Bunny was supposed to get this guy Fearless Free to do the high diving act? And and Yosemite Sam's like, I'll pay my full business to see the high diving act. to see the high diving act. Remember that? Yeah, so like he... He's actually making a little pistol motion. Yeah, you have to make the pistol motions. So anyway, so the so but there's all sorts of weird topical references in that cartoon. That cartoon was hilarious growing up, but there's no like, like songs at the time. Open the door, Richard. you know that song? Anyway. Uh, but it doesn't matter. That stuff's still funny as heck, even though you don't understand the references. Honey tunes are timeless, man. Yeah, unlike unlike Shakespeare, where someone has to sit there and tell you what all the references are to what's going on in the Shakespeare. You're like, oh, now I get it. That was like a current poem that people read. It's because he would mash his genitals against females. That is disgusting. Who would do that? No, no, no, not Trump. Not a political show, not a political show, Dave. I think we're all on board with who we want, right? Not a political show. Not a political show. Well, we don't want people out. a political show. Alright. Mash your gendles. First of all, like. No, not like they're not out. It's still, but that's even, that's so pathetic. Imagine, like, you're like, eh, is this good? On a crowded train. on a crowded train. Right on the subway. That just seems like a not, like, how is that? See, that kind of thing can't be an attempt at a
+
+[41:12] successful, a successful attempt. You're not attempting to actually get someone to go out on a date with you with that kind of a move, huh? Like, what are you getting? No, I mean, but a lot of stuff like, you know, cat calling and all that. It's not like you actually think the person's going to turn on and be like, hey, you know what? Let's go and get some dinner. Want to get a drink? Hey, sweet cheeks. Well, hello there. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't really understand. don't understand. So is it really just to show off to your buddies? It's power move. Yeah, yeah. But it's not a power move. Or was there nobody's got a crowded train. Right, I don't know. Well, no, that's just a power of what? You can you can impose your own will on somebody else. Yeah, I think so. don't know. I can't even imagine. Masher. That's disgusting. Was that an urban dictionary or is that a real... Various sources. Nastasia's favorite uh, favorite place to look up her data, various sources. Again, back to Looney Tunes. You remember that when the king was trying to get, I think it was Yosemite Sam again, to cook Bugs Bunny, and he says every day, every day the same thing, variety. Remember that? The king went on it and he wanted Hassen Pfeffer as opposed to variety. totally meaningless. Do you remember this? And then Yosemite Sam was trying to cook Bugs Bunny. And you need to go. Is that where Bugs Bunny's like sitting back and like, it's a hot tub? Hot tub. Popping bubbly. Hot tub. Dude, did they not have Looney Tunes in Illinois? No, no, no. There are episodes where Bugs Bunny is like sitting in a cauldron and like chewing on a
+
+[42:44] carrot irreverently. Well, maybe it is that one, actually. Maybe it is that one, but when you say, like, like, pop bubbles, I'm thinking of that like some... No, I was just from I was doing a reference to Fat Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I moved to Fateau from Looney Tunes. Oh, I see. And then what's that song? Pop bottles, the other one, the more recent one? Who sings that one? Pop bottles. I can't actually sing a lyrics to that. Any, I can't find I can't think of any set of lyrics of that that's appropriate for me to sing. All right, so we went from Concord Grapes to genital mashing to Looney Tunes to Fat Joe. All right, well let's finish this. Any thoughts for spooky Halloween cocktails? This is the same question, believe it or not, folks. The last word looks sort of like a witches brew, but I'm not sure the best way to really make it pop. I could carbonate it, but I really want it popping up in your face to seem spooky. The other cocktail I'm thinking I'm making is something somebody you made before, Concord, grape, maple syrup, lemon juice, bourbon,
+
+[43:45] Angostar, egg white, shaking, real frothy, and then 2 drops of pesos. Oh, not pastos, man, come on. Just don't just don't cough syrup in it if you're using patients. No offense, patience, people, but offense. It's good in a sense. don't mean to interrupt, but I'm gonna interrupt. Yeah, yeah. That my classic. Anyway, to show vampire teeth marks. All ideas appreciated things. I like the vampire in the egg foam. a good idea. I mean, pay shows, you know, I'm not for it, but, you know, whatever. So, uh, okay, if you're gonna do a, I mean, everyone's like, oh, this is for kids, adults freaking love a hunk of dry ice in
+
+[44:14] the car. Dry ice, I was gonna say, yeah, man. Adults freaking love it. And then especially... There's pizza with greens here, so don't the people here will, more reports on that next week. When we ask for a pizza with greens, it'll be like, we don't do that. We don't do that. It's going to happen. I guarantee you, Nastasia, how much you want to be? You won't bet me. And there's like prosciutto on top. It's like, I would love that pizza. So listen, when you're doing, if you're going to do a punch of dry ice, make sure you don't put, make sure you don't put,
+
+[44:39] um, uh, dry ice in anyone's cup for any reason, shape, form, whatever. Activated charcoal, black, like the superpowders that people use for health reasons, which I think is crazy, but
+
+[44:50] whatever, but, you know, that goes and drinks, a lot of people done that, and black drinks are creepy.
+
+[44:56] And if you use enough of it, all your all your customers or guest teeth will become black, which is also really creepy for them. What if you had like cobwebs from like cotton candy or something? And what? Cotton candy for cottonwoods. It would melt, man. You could put some on top. That's what I mean. Don't put silly string in your cocktails. Here's another one. Nastasia has been, and Nastasia and I, don't say the name of the book. I want the price to go even higher. But, uh, Nastasia, we, turns out is obsessed with this, says she told me about it. I don't remember. And then I mentioned it to her, Applehead dolls. Oh, yes. Has a garnish. Yes. Yeah, Appleheads. Apple and dolls. So look up the old Vincent Price, Applehead Doll kit. So what you do is you take, you take an apple, you peel all but the top and the bottom, leave that intact, then
+
+[45:44] carve, like carve a face in it, right? Soak in lemon juice a little bit if you want. I don't know why it's going to go brown anyway, but they say to do that. Carve a face in it, and then soak it in salt for, um, I don't know, like
+
+[45:57] a salt water for like a day or so. And that's to, I think, I don't know why everyone does that. Some of that's probably just osmotic to pull the water out of the apple and also probably to help keep it from Sperlin as it as it dries down and then dry that sucker down. like stick it on a chopstick or whatever, and or wire, and dry it, uh, or you hang it or what, or stick it up and dry it for a week. If you have a h dehydrator, you can do it quicker. If you buy the Vincent Price. The Vincent Price, Applehead maker, literally is like a case that goes around a 60 watt light bulb and probably has caused more house fires than any other Vincent Price branded toy in history, of
+
+[46:36] course. And what's the ultimate cocktail, Halloween cocktail? The ultimate Halloween cocktail is to make a wine zombie. And Nastasia should post on her Instagram account, wine zombie instructions. Peter, what is your experience with the Wayne Zoe? Um, I basically drank kamikaze straight out of the wine zombie. Not knowing it was kamikazis. And then, um... Blacked out. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So the way a wine zombie works is you go to your local Halloween shop and you buy a you buy a zombie mask and then you put it, you build like a wire armature, you put a zombie costume over it with hands, and then you just put a punch bowl in there, you drill a hole in the
+
+[47:17] bottom and jam a rubber tube in, and then you put it on like a circulator or whatever pump. Then you add all of your cocktail to that bucket. And then the tube out of the circulator, pump whatever goes into the mouth of
+
+[47:30] the of the zombie mask that I guess you put it over a mannequin head, right? Styrofoam head, and then dumps into the bowl. So it's just a zombie puking. And I think for this, a red cocktail is appropriate. puking zombie, blood, cocktail, punch, and you can have like a hunk of dry ice in the punch bowl to keep it cold as it's
+
+[47:49] circing. And so he's puking into a frothy, like steamy zombie thing. And a zombie hit. Later, you're puking into a. Yeah, now, Nastasia, Nastasia, you know, believe it or not, even though, even though she is sometimes a just get or done enemy of
+
+[48:05] quality. It's good enough kind of a person. That's what this was. No, but you went full on and you did you did a standing wine zombie. You did a Santa. And then and zombie, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, but, but if you, your 1st wine, your 1st wine zombie out the gate, I recommend doing a bust only zombie, that you can, you know, put on a tabletop, like a tabletop mounted zombie, but if you want to go full Nastasia and Piper, shout out to Piper
+
+[48:34] Christopher. He said he gave up all IP on that. Well, you still have to give him credit for working on it. You have to give him money, but you have to give him credit. So if you need plans, Nastasia should sell kit plans for wine zombies because it's wine zombie year. And then the good thing is, is that with a very small amount of repurposing, you can do what Nastasia also did it, the Del Posto
+
+[48:53] party, which is the puking Santa, whereas Santa's puking up mold, and that was a hot one. That's very good. Like a hot, like a mold, uh, mulled wine. You didn't mold wine, right? Like a glug, like a Santa puking up a glug, and Nastasi, again, took it one level further. Actually recorded her friend Phil Bravo, like making Santa
+
+[49:13] comments, like, too many cookies, what? And then, like, puking up the mull wine. You know what I mean? best work with Dave. Yeah, yeah. Those are the days. Oh, now you're making me think of the Archie Bunker song. That's a good show. On the fan. Got to wrap it up, Dave. All right. So, listen, I have some questions I didn't get to. They are on zucchini pieces. I don't see who sent that in, but it's about zucchini, residue, and sticking. And again, much more complicated than I thought. You ever, remember, I've said this on the air a bunch of times. When you when you skin pumpkins, you get that weird oozi latex that
+
+[49:50] like causes that disgusting skin to form on top of your already disgusting
+
+[49:53] skin, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so it turns out that there are these crazy exudates in
+
+[49:59] cucubits and zucchini, cucumber, pumpkin, all cucubits, and some have it more than others, these weird exudates, and so I'm
+
+[50:07] going to look into that because I think that's an interesting subject.
+
+[50:10] And I also have to get next week to, um, ooh, replicating other cooks dishes and when it's okay, when it's a rip. Uh, and we have a question on some high-tech equipment uh, from Simone and Montreal, we're going to get to next week. What do you want, Peter? And go to ChowCHOW.mofat.org and get your tickets to see Child the Making of Chinese American Cuisine and then see Dave, me, maybe Stas. I don't know if she'll be there. Because if you don't, give me the give me the moisture management, Peter, if we don't make it. If you don't, then it was just going to be in so much trouble. We'd appreciate the support. So it starts at 30 bucks and up, you can come and see the exhibition. So get out there. chow.mofa.org. Thanks. Cooking issues.
+
+[51:02] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website, or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info@heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today.
+
+[51:32] Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the immersion circulator for
+
+[0:03] Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage
+
+[0:36] Radio Network every Tuesday from like, you know, 12-ish to like almost like, you know, one o'clock. Uh, at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. How you doing? Yeah. Listen, listen, I need you to call in all of your cooking related questions too. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. We have no one in the studio today with us. It's just engineer Dave and myself. How you doing, Dave? Good, how are you doing? But we have Nastasia, the Hammer,
+
+[1:07] Lopez, joining us from Washington, DC on telephone, and do we have our special guest in DC? Yes, we do. And folks, you ready for it? Jackie Molecules. Jack Insley from DC. What's up? What's up, Dave? Nothing, how you doing? So have you started this new radio thingamajig down there yet? What going on? You know, it's under construction. I'll be opening, uh, it's going to be called full service radio, a entire podcast network here in DC in an awesome yet to be opened hotel. So it's basically still a construction zone, but uh, 11 DC so far, man. really cool over here. So do you like wear blue blazers every day and like, I mean, what? No, no, no, no. The Knicks hat stays on. Yeah? Do you like, do like, just wake up in a Starbucks every morning and hang out with the political people? Is that what happens? What's going on? And I have had more Starbucks here in DC than I have my entire life in New York, unfortunately.
+
+[2:08] That's actually true statement. Yeah. Yeah. So are you are you busy rigging the election while you're waiting for the construction to happen? I've been rigging it. Yeah, I've been actively rigging it, doing everything I can. Yeah, I mean, you get to tour the White House though, Dave. I got to tour the West Wing, which is pretty awesome. Yeah? What did you do? Did you notice stuff that you had seen in all the television programs or what? Well, I mean, you know, I got to see like pictures of Michelle on Barack's desk. That was kind of cool. Wait, you got to see the Oval Office? The Oval Office bathroom. Wait, you look, wait, you were like, you were in the Oval Offices restroom, but not in the Oval Office itself? Yeah, there's like a bathroom right outside. I was like, you know, if you want to use the bathroom, now's your chance. You could use it at the White House. You peed in the Oval Office's bathroom. Yes, I did. Now, people who know Nastasia Lopez will know that she cannot be in a new place without using the restroom.
+
+[3:05] This includes like, you know, if she could have used Elvis's death toilet at Graceland, she would, you definitely would have been all over that Oval Office toilet. Am I right, Nastasia? Oh yeah, there's still time. I'm still here for like 12 more hours or something. Now, are you allowed to say why you're there or not? What? Are you allowed to say why you're in Washington or no? Uh, no, I don't think so. So we can talk about it next week? Sure. All right. All right. Well, so that's exciting that we know you're in DC rigging the election, but we can't talk about exactly what you're doing. All right, we'll talk about it next week. So in other news, Booker and Dax, the bar is officially closed. Booker and Dax one. At Sambar is officially closed. So, you know, that's that. It was a crazy... Mustasi was away. It was a crazy, crazy Saturday. It was fun though. It was good. Uh, you know, people are like, are you sad to see it close? I'm like, no, because it's going to be better the next time when we reopen it. You know what I mean? Yeah, were there piñatas? Okay, so I had 2 piñatas on me. I went to a place, a local place in New York called Economy Candy and bought a bunch of candy for these piñatas. Do you know the piñatas now are freaking horrible. I went to party city. Piñatas have been going downhill for years and years. They've just turned into garbage. You know what I mean? Like, 1st like, they started making them out of this cardboard that doesn't break right. You know, I mean, no one, but no one makes a ceramic pot anymore. You know what I mean? But whatever. I'm okay with not having the ceramic pot, like traditional star piñata, fine. Uh, those are awesome, right? Because you knock the like those star points off and then eventually you get to the pot. You know what I mean? But it will break. I've seen these new cardboard piñatas where like I've seen kids break on them for like like 20 minutes and they're getting bored and they walk away from a piñata. What the hell is that? You know what I mean? I mean, what the heck is that? So, like, uh, so anyway, so I hate the modern piñata, but over the past couple of years,
+
+[5:16] Mistachio, they've gotten even worse, they're now just flat. Most of them are just flat cardboard with like a picture on them of what you're supposed to hit. And a little and a little cray paper around the outside. I was like, yo, like, give me a traditional donkey and a unicorn. You know what I mean? Which is basically, it's like, it's like Carvel ice cream, like they make
+
+[5:38] Fudgy the Whale into Santa. They took the donkey and made it into a unicorn. So I got a unicorn and a donkey, but... I'm just saying, I think that they didn't trust me on the last night to be reasonable, so they didn't allow me to break the
+
+[5:51] piñatas, uh, uh, there. So we all went to, uh, you know, my, uh, someone who, you know, used to be at work at Booker and Dax, Reynolds, opened up his own bar, Black Crescent. So we did a late night after party piñata breaking at Black Crescent. So yes, piñatas were damaged. Some piñatas were harmed in the making of the closing night of
+
+[6:12] Booker index. I will also just mention this. Um, for, so, Nastasi, you're familiar with Dai Cook and Mentos, right? Yes. Yeah. So you take the Mentos, you stick it in the Diet Coke, and Diet Coke is the one everyone uses, you stick the Mentos in the Diet Coke, and you throw it down, you get all of these nucleation sites, and
+
+[6:33] the Diet Coke bottle basically turns into a rocket, right? Okay. So, you can do that with liquid butane or with liquid nitrogen,
+
+[6:43] and, you know, you can see it on the internet. You could see people doing it with the liquid nitrogen and the thing. So I'm like, oh, I'm not saying I tried this. What I'm saying is, is that if you try it, be extremely careful to not put too much liquid
+
+[6:56] nitrogen. So what happens is, is that theoretically, let's not say that I did this. But if you were to pour out like, you know, half or a 3rd of the bottle of the, oh, I just did a trump sniff, if you were to pour out like half or a 3rd of
+
+[7:08] the of the diet Coke from a fresh bottle and then pour in, um, pour in some liquid nitrogen, right? Now the liquid nitrogen's floating on the top of the bottle. Now, if you flick that, if you like tilt that bottle down, what happens
+
+[7:22] is, the liquid nitrogen will rush through the liquid of the
+
+[7:27] Diet Coke trying to float to the top, and while it's doing that, it's explosively boiling and creating super multiple nucleation sites.
+
+[7:34] So theoretically, it makes a really nice rocket. It turns out that I guess if you wait a little bit too long or maybe you put too much liquid nitrogen in, that when you turn it upside down, it
+
+[7:45] takes off for like a foot and then explodes with like the sound of
+
+[7:50] like, of, you know, like a, like, like bigger than, bigger than a groochie firework. We're talking like a very loud explosion. And you definitely do not want to do this. In Manhattan. at like 4 in the morning. It's definitely not something that I did or that I would recommend that any of you do. Um, anyways. So another thing, Nastasi and I, a while back, okay, so Nastasi and I got paid,
+
+[8:23] right? For something, finally, right? So Nastasia and I got paid, Johnny Walker. Not yet. Not yet. All right. Well, theoretically, paid promise of payment, baby steps, Nastasia, baby steps. So, um, Basically, these guys came in and they're saying, we have this new Johnny Walker,
+
+[8:40] Red Rye cask, you know, that are, you know, our new, one of our master blenders, uh, Emma Walker, no relation, came up with, and we want to come in and
+
+[8:49] do like a cooking issues where you talk to her about this product, right?
+
+[8:53] This is basically how it went. Yeah. So it wasn't one of our normal cooking issue things. And yes, we were paid, but it turns out Nastasi and I had a good time. We liked the product and we actually liked Emma Walker. We thought she was fun. And so we have the cooking issues episode. Dave, how do we, how do they get to? What's not going on our normal feed? Because, listen, I bleeped out some of the crazy parts. I redacted somebody's name, who I didn't want to publicly embarrass, and I cut out some of the cursing, but it's still not really a family show. It's about drinking and there are some, uh, you know... Yeah, there's some off color stories in it, let's say, even with the bleeping. Carlo Marachi from Carlo from Roberta's
+
+[9:35] makes an appearance towards the end. So Dave, how do they how do they get to that because it's not part of our normal feed. Right. So if you go to the Heritage Radio Network website, heritageradionetwork.org. And if you just use the search bar at the bottom and look for cooking issues. Johnny Walker. It'll come right up Now, now, so you need to actually go to our website to get this. You're not going to it's not going to appear in your iTunes or whatever. You have to actually go, which is always a good idea. Don't you think, Dave, to go to our carriage radio website? Absolutely. Forget iTunes. Forget that. You know, I wish I had used that bleep. I was talking about bad ways to, like, you know, like in the 1980s, when they used to overdub curses, my least favorite was the
+
+[10:14] forget for the F-bomb. Forget you. You know what I mean? It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't have the same force. You know what I mean? No bad replacement. a bad replacement. It's a bad replacement. So you just say FU. Just say F. think that's better. Or just like silence it or something. So my friend, uh, Eric Bonenstiel, uh, who uh, I was hanging out with, you guys don't know him. I mean, maybe you do. I don't know. I was hanging out with him over the weekend. He said that he saw something and literally they dubbed the full, like, FU as get this. You ready for it? And it became his favorite thing to say as a substitute curse, Chinese dentist. Say that again? Chinese dentist. And it's good because it makes no freaking sense. Yes, Chinese dentist. has no meaning. Has no meaning. So, like, whenever he would like smash his hand with a hammer or something and go, oh, a Chinese dentist like that. And it makes no sense. And said it was literally... racist, I think. That's racist. How is it? I mean, like it has no meaning. It can't be racist. Like, what does it mean? How is it how is it racist? It happens to have the word Chinese in it? Does it have any relationship? We just looked it up and it says it's a mythical person who is said to exist in remote areas of
+
+[11:31] China, but has never been cited by a reputable source. That's what a Chinese dentist is. What does that mean? What does that mean? saying they have bad teeth. Oh, you racist? Oh, you see? That's like racist now. That's so deep that I didn't even, I didn't even get the reference. I get it now. But why would they use that? Why would they use that as a as a as a dub in a movie? Some, some, you know, some Klansman was doing the overdubs. Dang. I'm going to have to tell Eric never to use that. Yeah. We shouldn't have told you. See, now this is classic Nastasia, right? She would prefer that I walk around, like accidentally insulting people, then, like, tell me what's going on. I want you all to kind of realize, you know, where Nastasia is on this sort of a thing. Crazy. Crazy. All right, speaking of things that may or may not be offensive, Elliot wrote in, can you discuss a cook's integrity as it relates to trying to replicate dishes and techniques seen on social
+
+[12:45] media? What is crossing the line and what is the sharing of ideas? Curious what you think, and hopefully there is a guest today that can also weigh in, Elliot. Well, I don't know. I mean, you guys can weigh in. Um, I can't believe you looked it up that fast. You guys are crazy. Well, thank you. Thank you for saving me from going the entire episode without knowing that I was
+
+[13:09] like accidentally spewing hatred. Yeah, who knows how many more times you would have dropped that. Right. Throughout the episode, like 8000000000 and someone would have like written in and been like, uh, uh, you know what I mean?
+
+[13:20] Anyways. So, um, Here's what I think. I think. A lot depends, right? I'll give you a short story about the bar and then we could talk more about other stuff. So, like, I've had many bartenders at Booker and Dax, who have gone on to do,
+
+[13:43] um, you know, bigger and better things, their own programs, uh, go to work at, you know, the best bars in the country or run
+
+[13:51] them. And, um, The thing is, is that they tend not to take some of the, um, some of the core technique, most of the core techniques from Booker and Dax. Now, some of that is because, you know, they can't afford a centrifuge or whatever, but a lot of those recipes and techniques tend not to get, uh, taken
+
+[14:10] from, or, you know, did not get taken from Booker and Dax and kind of promulgated to other bars. And I always wondered why. Now, it could just be that those techniques suck and nobody wants to use them, right? That's the 1st way, right? Stars could be that. Uh, right? Maybe they just, there's not good. Or, uh, alternatively, um, I put such a, um, I put such a, uh, uh, kind of
+
+[14:38] a premium on not doing anyone else's stuff, like not doing other people's specs, uh, not using techniques uh, that were developed,
+
+[14:49] modern, recent techniques that were developed by, uh, you know, other people or people I knew, uh, you know, or that we hadn't come to independently.
+
+[14:58] And I think, um, that kind of made them feel that using that stuff
+
+[15:04] would, would is bad, right? That using it would be a ripoff or whatever. And that's actually the opposite of what I want. Like, I want those techniques to be to be used, right? I mean, the issue of anyone, what people don't like, I think, everyone wants their stuff to
+
+[15:23] get, um, used, uh, their recipes and techniques to get used. What they want out of it is, to be honest, like some sort of like credit, right? So what they don't want to have happened. Like the worst thing that can happen, it's happened to us, how many times this happened? Like you come up with something, somebody else uses it. They're the more famous person, it gets credited to them and your host, right? That's that's the worst case scenario. Um, the other thing to do... That's my favorite. my absolute favorite. But the other thing that happens is that, um, the other thing that people hate is when, you know, someone
+
+[16:01] will take a technique or a recipe to a different market and then allow reporters and other people to say that it was their
+
+[16:10] idea. That's also not kosher at all. But, um, you know, I think if you use a recipe or a technique, or anything, and as long as when the reporters come and ask you, you're like, yeah, this was an awesome recipe from whoever from Sean Brock, from Wiley
+
+[16:27] Dufrain, from Johnny Azini, from Dominique and cell from whomever. You know what I mean? I think, um, I think it's, that's that's the, the issue. What people don't want is someone to take credit for a
+
+[16:42] recipe. I mean, it's famously said, you don't patent, you know, these recipes that, you know, they're basically their open
+
+[16:48] source as long as you can figure out how to make them. But there is in the in the higher end, food world, and drink world, at least like some sort of sense of honor in it. And I think that, I think as long as you are respecting that kind of code of honor and ethics, you know, use
+
+[17:07] it. I would love it if people used, you know, recipes. Jim Mian, uh, kind of famously said from, you know, PDT that, you know, the goal, at least of a bartender, is to create a recipe that becomes a classic and
+
+[17:20] has made everywhere, right? I mean, uh, and I would think the same thing would hold true for, um, you know, a chef. What do you think, guys? Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, just, you know, don't. Except for techniques. Tell them what your technique is people's soul. Which one? The, uh, rapid infusion. Oh, yeah, but no, people know that I came up with that with the ISI infusion. whatever. I mean, it depends. The right people know. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you gonna do? The, the, Again, the issue is that this is why, like, people like Floran Adria put a year on everything that they do so that they can kind of date it and plant their flag in
+
+[18:04] it. And the only reason it even really matters at all is, I mean, it's weird. When you're a cook, you're in the business of making ephemeral things that get consumed on a daily basis, right? And yet you still, for some reason. And I think part of this has to do with kind of the group of people that are
+
+[18:24] becoming, um, cooks these days is you still want to have some sort of, uh, um, you want to exist past the last meal you
+
+[18:35] made. You want to have some sort of, um, impact or some sort of, uh, you know, note that you have existed other than the fact that you just
+
+[18:43] happen to have cooked. And so that's why, you know, people, and you look back at old chefs that have famous dishes or famished cook famous cookbooks. There's another reason why it's a good idea. Like if you're well known to actually make a cookbook, you know, because then at least you plant your flag in
+
+[19:00] something and people can look back on it. Um, That's initially why we started cooking issues blog years and years and years ago was so that we had some sort of record. So it wasn't just we would do stuff, teach other people how to do that stuff, and then, you know, it just gets forgotten. Um, but it's kind of a weird. It's a weird impulse. I mean, I do have that impulse to wanna plant that flag, but it's a weird impulse to have in a business where you're making stuff for people to
+
+[19:26] eat. You know what I mean? Yep. Yep. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, in the old days, and it's entirely honorable, right?
+
+[19:36] To all you care about is good execution, right? Like, you don't care necessarily about making a name for yourself, whatever that
+
+[19:45] means or having some sort of posterity. All you care about is the food that's in front of you right now. I mean, that's the Zen way to go. You're not supposed to care about your own kind of personal, um, baggage or what, you know, what you need out of, uh, you know, so that you can, when
+
+[20:02] you're, you know, an old person and people come up and you're like, you are the great cook,
+
+[20:07] blah, blah, blah. you know, like, that's not necessarily what it needs to be about. Um, and, you know, especially if you're one of those kind of, uh, cooks like these kinds of issues aren't really, um, a problem. So, the short answer is, is that if you fancy yourself, an extremely creative cook or someone is doing cutting edge
+
+[20:26] things, or if being original is important to you, it is still okay, in fact, encouraged to use other people's ideas as long as you're not a dirtbag about it,
+
+[20:39] right? Right. All right. Jared, yep. I actually have a question from a listener that I met here in DC if you want to take that real quick. Yeah, cool. This one's coming from Josh Seaberg. It's a throwback. He wants to know if he can find a practical use for a veggie behind the bar. Oh my god. Oh my god. Well, I mean, I, in my mind, Jack, I had about 8000 inappropriate references immediately pop
+
+[21:13] up and I have suppressed them all. Thankfully, I... No, don't suppress. No, no, no. I can't, especially... That was unintentional. That was unintentional. You might as well just go all in, Dave. No, no, no. No, especially in today's political climate. I am not about to like stop. Now more than ever, you have license, you know? Not going to be dropping. You could just say whatever pops into their heads, so... Dropping veggetty bombs, all over everything. Well, I'm going to actually attempt to legitimately, so for those of you that don't know the
+
+[21:49] Vegeti, a.k.a. the spiralizer, was one of our favorite topics back in the
+
+[21:57] day. Who was it, Nastasia that originally sent us to Vegetti? Claire. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it doesn't take someone with a dirty mind to see how stupid that name is,
+
+[22:10] right? I mean, it's, it's a, it's like a thing with an orifice that you jam, like cylindrical things into and it shreds them in its
+
+[22:24] teeth, and it's called a vejetty. I mean, you don't need to travel too far mentally to get to the scads of
+
+[22:32] Vegetti jokes because Claire, Nastasia's friend would call in kind of seemingly unaware of what she was talking about while we were asking
+
+[22:40] her what manner of things she was shoving into her Vegetti. And she would say, things that were like, you know, if your mind was taking the leap that everyone's
+
+[22:50] did would seem inappropriate. But I think the problem with making veggie jokes behind the bar is that, well, the bar arena is less sexist than the kitchen arena, I'm talking professional, it still has a
+
+[23:07] long freaking way to go for gender parity.
+
+[23:11] So I will merely say this. I want to see as many veggettis behind the bar as is humanly possible. Uh, because, uh, I think it's, uh, it's a problem, but it is, it, well, but it is a notion, it is an
+
+[23:29] area, I'm taking it on the metaphorical sense here. It is an area of food service, I think, that is making inroads faster than the back of house
+
+[23:39] kitchen is. And so I think anything that goes that direction is good. Now, to the serious question of should I put an actual vegetable spiralizer behind the bar? If you are the kind of person that prefers to drink your cocktails with chopsticks, then I
+
+[23:55] say, go ahead and just fill your cup with whatever kind of the jetified garbage you want to like put into it. But I can't imagine. Um, I can't. I mean, maybe it's just because people, like, I don't like gloppy drinks, I don't like tons of garbage in my drinks. I don't like I don't like drinking my cocktails through a brillo pad of fake spaghetti. So, I, I mean, I can't conceive of like, okay, okay, let's just say there are people might do this. People might take some sort of, like, Apple, let's say, and, you know, shape it, such that you could jam it into your
+
+[24:39] vegetti, vegetify the apple into these strands, pour a liquor over it with some acid that causes the apple not to go brown. And then you have it'll fairly rapidly infused because of the high surface area of Apple or you could do a light mash down of the Apple, but I wouldn't because then it would get ugly, then you drink the apple flavored
+
+[24:57] stuff, and then you could take chopsticks and eat it afterwards, but it's just not my style. I would not do that. You could answer, though. Yeah. And you could substitute anything for that. Like, I could see someone doing, like, some sort of
+
+[25:10] like uh, Lady of the Night, which is a clarified, bloody Mary, and having some vegetified vegetables in there that would, you know, infuse and then be a meal afterwards, because let's face it, a
+
+[25:21] bloody Mary is basically a liquid alcoholic meal anyways. So, I don't know. What do you think, Nastasia? That was a nice way to answer that question. Mm, all right. Now, Jared wrote in about a zucchini. Thanks for answering my questions in the past. This one is about zucchini, and it's sticky, slimy residue. We never actually finished this one last week, right? Dave? I don't think we did. don't think so. When I dehydrate raw zucchini pieces, much of it tends to stick together and I suspect that this residue is the culprit, do you think that's the
+
+[25:58] case, yes. Residue? Get ready, Nastasia. I'm going to use the word exit date. Uh, which is, yeah, I'm imagining nostalgia right now. Yeah, you should have seen her face. Wow. Exit date. Yeah, it's like, she like that, because you know why? Because whenever you say exit date, she's thinking like pimple popping. That's what she's thinking about. I can now Jack's got the nostasia face on. Exit date. Uh, she, whenever, like, for instance, this is a little, like, knowledge drop knowledge on how Anastasia's mind works. Nastasia, like, Nastasia doesn't like look, the reason Nastasia, and I'm guessing, this is a guess. We haven't actually had this conversation, but the reason she hates looking at pictures
+
+[26:44] of like leaf fungus and like those weird things that grow on plant leaves is because in her mind, I think she instantly equates it with human skin.
+
+[26:53] That's that's my feeling. I think so. Yeah. think so. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Is that? That's Dave on the on the vomiting sound effects. Do you know, I used to be able to do a very passable, uh, fake throw up
+
+[27:11] noise. And as I've aged, it puts too much pressure on the back of my eyeballs and
+
+[27:16] like, I almost black out. Nobody does it better than Stephen Colbert. That was him? No, no, no, but I'm saying he has the best fake throw up sound in the world. Well, he better, like, keep using that now, because I think the older you get, the less good you're going to be at the fake throw up. Just like jamming up your diaphragm like that just puts a lot of internal pressure on your system. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just like a Vegetti. Whoa. Okay. Anyway, do I think that slimy stuff is the is the culprit, yes. Now, going on, Jared writes, other than making sure pieces don't overlap. This is going to become a not family friendly show at this rate. We got Vegettis, we got accidental racism. Horrible. It's horrible day. Other than making sure pieces don't overlap when dehydrating, which is unavoidable for my application. Can anything else be done to neutralize this sticking? Um, the main issue is when I reconstitute the zucchini with water, the pieces tend to remain stuck
+
+[28:12] together. I prefer they come apart within a few minutes. Thanks for your help. Jared. Okay, so I looked up a, uh, an article called, uh, This
+
+[28:22] Extra Fascicular Floam is made for fighting, which it's like,
+
+[28:27] like nowadays, all these scientific papers have, uh, like these catchy titles. So, um, Zucchini, strangely, I don't have the good version of the thing here, but zucchini
+
+[28:40] is, um, is a cucubit, right? The same way that pumpkins are cucubits and watermelons and, uh, uh,
+
+[28:49] Deste pumpkin already, cucumbers, zucchini, all that stuff. All same. same family. And they all have these, uh, exit, like these, like,
+
+[28:58] like this, they say it's flow and based, but they can be like exudates. So for any of you who've ever peeled a pumpkin, like for soup, like you'll notice it gets that weird stuff and your hands get that like crazy skin on them
+
+[29:10] from like that stuff drying. And apparently in pumpkin anyway. There's like 100s of compounds in them. There's sugars, there's proteins, and they're surface active. And I think that that's what's what's going on because they're also present in in zucchini. Now, the problem is you can't just peel it to get rid of it because I think these things are pretty dense into the zucchini. So I don't think you can rationally just peel it and get rid of the stuff. What I think, and this is just a guess, uh, is, maybe if we treat it, and I didn't have a chance to look it up, what the components in cactus slime are. But for those of you that use Nopalis, like, you know, cactus things, they're slimy, and you can either do a quick pre-boil on those to help out with the,
+
+[29:55] or like, you know, you cut it, you do a little pre-boil, which I guess boils the slime off, drain it, rinse it again before you dehydrate it.
+
+[30:01] Or, um, you can salt it, right? And then rinse it off and the salt will help dry out, you know, pull out the slime. So I would bet that either one of those techniques and a little bit, let's be honest, a little bit of salt is not going to hurt the zucchini. Am I right, guys? I mean, come on, please. If you, yeah, if you salt the zucchini out a little bit 1st and then rinse the salt off and then
+
+[30:22] dehydrate. I think that might help too. But I would look up, um, like treating cactus slime. I'll do a little more research. Maybe I'll run a test on, although I don't have scads of time to be cutting up zucchini, which is one of my least favorite vegetables
+
+[30:36] anyways. But, you know, maybe Anastasia, maybe we can get clear to vejetify a bunch of it and test it out. She's still making her zucchini, her zucchini veggetti strands. It's evolved. It's evolved into a bigger and worse face. Yeah. Vegetty strands. Well, Nastasius... Nastasia's friend. I guess because she didn't want a carbo load. I don't know what her deal was, like, um, was making fake zucchini spaghetti, but then she would overcook it and then fry it. She fried it. She fried it, yeah. Yeah, all right, whatever. I try to imagine something more horrifying than like just an oil soaked strand of zucchini. How do you ate it? Was it actually bad? I didn't eat it. I've never eaten it. You were sitting in front of it and you couldn't bring yourself to taste one bite? You would just tell me about it, how great it is. Well, you need to have some at this point. I mean, I feel like we've talked about it enough. need to have it. Jack's like, nah, nah. Yeah, nah. Simon wrote in about ultrasounds. I recently have acquired a centrifugion, a laboratory, ultrasonic cell, disruptor, which is a, so basically, it's
+
+[31:53] a, like they're powerful ultrasounds, and they just, they vibrate so rapidly that the cavitation from it at the tip causes things like cells to kind of break, break
+
+[32:03] apart. And Nastasia, you hate the sound of it, right? Oh, I hate that. Yeah, that high pitched thing? Yeah, yeah, people go running. It's crazy. Anyway, I recently acquired a laboratory, ultrasonic cell disrupted from a restaurant closing down. I'm very familiar with the centrifuge, but I have very little experience with the sonicator. Being a bartender, one of my main interests in this piece of equipment is to make
+
+[32:25] confusions. I'm waiting for a replacement cap for the probe, so I haven't had the chance to use it yet.
+
+[32:30] Do you remember when Ford used to have a Ford made a car called the probe? And literally the commercial was, is there anything hotter than a hot new probe? And I could not have been the only guy who was like, are you kidding me? You just said, whatever anyway. So he's waiting for a new probe? Are there any benefits to using a sonicator versus classic infusion or ISI infusions? By the way, I'll probably also have access to a road of app soon. Should I make ultrasonic absinthe? Thanks, Simon. Well, listen, if you're going to wrote of that, but you can blend that stuff. You don't need to worry about any sort of like highfalutin infusion stuff because you're going to distill it afterwards. The one trick that actually Nastasia, I think, came up with for the Roto app, is when you're going to distill something that has plant matter blended up in it, add a little bit of
+
+[33:15] Pectinex ultra SPL to the product that you're going to distill. Why? Because blended plant residue, without it, tends to foam up a lot. And one of the main problems when you're running a rotary evaporator is getting boil over into your distillate, it ruins everything. How many hours have we spent cleaning out rotovaps after failed boils like that, Stas? So many hours. So many hours. So Nastasi was like, Dave, idiot, why don't you just put some SPL into
+
+[33:42] it? so that the pectin breaks down and then it won't boil over. I mean, it's pretty much how it happened, right? I do not remember that. Maybe you just did it by mistake. I don't know, but you did it, and it caused me to never, never boil over habanero pepper into my, if you boil, if you blend habaneros or
+
+[34:03] Nagajolochias or fatale peppers, and you boil those over into your
+
+[34:08] roto vap. I used to clean it twice with soap, lick
+
+[34:13] it to verify that it wasn't hot anymore, then reclean it to get rid of the fact that I had just licked it. It would take forever to clean those things. And so the SPL trick in the Rota app, I think, is a good, uh, a good pro tip versus the, uh, now
+
+[34:29] we talk about the ultrasonic uh, homogenizer. I have one. I never really came up with, you know, I know people who use it for infusions, but I've never had
+
+[34:39] it side by side where I'm like, yeah, that stuff's delicious. Philip Preston sells them. I know some people that use them, but I'm not the guy. I mean, I could test it. I still have one, but I just never built it in as part of what
+
+[34:51] I, what I was doing, maybe because it sounded so freaking
+
+[34:55] got awful that I never wanted to hear it. Um, I think some people who have them now have these like soundproof. It's even worse than that. It's even worse than that noise. It's like, how do I describe it? It's like someone's drilling a hole in your head, but at like a super high, high,
+
+[35:14] uh, the closest thing without buying it is when you throw a dry ice chunk into
+
+[35:20] a, um, into a hotel pan. And have you ever done that? Nastas, you know that noise where you drop a chunk of dry ice in a hotel pan? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Terrible. Terrible, terrible. Okay. Uh, we have uh, Darren wrote in about a transcript taminates. He said, 1st of all, this is not hate mail. By the way, transglutaminates, for those of you who don't know, transglutaminates is an enzyme. It's a meat glue, right? So it's the protein that you use to glue any one meat to any other, but it also strengthens does,
+
+[35:58] right? By reinforcing protein bonds in does, it also can strengthen cheese, tofu, but it's
+
+[36:05] colloquially the chefs know it as meat glue. This is going to become important later to this story. Uh, meat glue. The transgutaminates that we use in the kitchen is what's called microbial transglutaminates. It's derived from, you guessed it, microbes. And it is different from, and another fact that you
+
+[36:25] that will become important later to the story, is that your body is filled with transglutaminates, because it's necessary for a bunch of things like blood clotting, hair growth,
+
+[36:35] uh, skin, um, you know, manufacturing skin, all these kinds of things. And it also occurs in your intestine. Now, tissue transcriptamines, which is the stuff that's in your body, there are many. There's not just one. There are many tissue tanglotaminases in your body. They do relatively similar thing to microbial
+
+[36:55] translutaminates, but they are, in fact, different and the structure of the proteins. The structure of the enzyme is different. For instance, among many things, the transcotaminates in your body require calcium to work, whereas microbial transglutaminates does not. Now, a ginomoto, like I said, makes the microbial translutaminates and then sells it to chefs. All right, so that's the background for what's about to happen in Darren's question. All right. First of all, this isn't hate mail. I love the results of transglutaminase has produced in my limited use of it. I've never eaten a chicken mousse that didn't that didn't contain transglutaminates that didn't also have an odd grainy texture. Aside from this, I was reading a study with a link below that they
+
+[37:38] give me. And it reminded me of another study that was done showing the dangers of transglutaminates for celiac patients.
+
+[37:44] Further reading could not unearth this supposed groundbreaking study, but I came across several sources indicating that celiac disease
+
+[37:53] attacks certain kinds of transglutamine series that our body naturally produces. I'm no chemistry, professional by any stretch, but this makes culinary, but this makes sense because autoimmune syndromes attack our own body functions, suggesting that culinary transglutaminates is similar to the transcript contaminates our body
+
+[38:11] produces giving a theory as to why it helps some celiac patients, as I remember you mentioning before. Now already it's starting to get complicated, which we'll get into. What bothered me after reading this is the discovery of several studies indicating the use of
+
+[38:24] transglutaminates in several gluten-free products to strengthen protein cross links and mimic the texture and spring gluten puts in bread and pasta.
+
+[38:32] If celiac disease is, in fact, targeting transglutaminate series in the body that may react to gluten in their body, then adding it to gluten-free
+
+[38:41] products seems counterintuitive. Again, this doesn't affect me, and I don't really condemn any food additive, as I
+
+[38:48] accept, is it a fact of our food cycle now, but if you or anyone you know might have something that could shed some light on the subject, I'd be grateful. Miklu already gets a bad enough rap as is, and then below are some
+
+[38:58] links in the studies that Darren link to, where the function of tissues, transglutaminates, and celiac disease, and then something about some stuff of how they
+
+[39:07] use. There's an interesting article, again, with the funny article names, food
+
+[39:12] industrial micro microbial transglutaminist. That's not the funny part. In celiac disease, treat or trick, which is apropos for Halloween, it's coming up. Now, I was reviewing some of these articles, and I
+
+[39:25] got to be honest, it's a little more than my morning perusal could get to the bottom of in terms of what's going on, but basically, here is kind of what's known, not
+
+[39:34] known, and what's going on. So, in your gut, there are tissue transglutaminates, human
+
+[39:40] transglutaminates in your gut. When you consume gluten proteins, which contain gluten, which is the protein, that protein makes
+
+[39:49] it through your gut relatively undigested because it's difficult to digest proline. Yeah, well, anyway, protein. But protein. But what gut? But what happens is, is that the transgutaminates there,
+
+[40:03] Gliodin is relatively interesting in the fact that it has many, many, many sites that
+
+[40:10] transgutaminates can use many free glutamines to bind it to other things.
+
+[40:15] So gliodin reacts very strongly with tissue transglutaminates. This, like, further bulks it up and maybe makes it more reactive for celiac
+
+[40:27] diseases. Disease suffers. Maybe. What also is known is that tissue transglutaminates not only cross-links the proteins, but also does something called de-amidate them, which means it's knocking off a functional group. And as far as I can tell, that really is one of the main problems that is causing, um, the autoimmune response is this
+
+[40:49] deamidation, okay? So, uh, that's what's happening to this uh, gliodin uh, that's in your system. Now, furthermore, transglutaminates in your gut might also be implicated in other aspects of the pathway besides simply its functioning
+
+[41:05] with glutin, right? So there might be multiple things that are, or gli, I don't know how you pronounce it, that might be happening and all of that is unclear to me. Now, when you go to read the studies on microbial transglutamines. Because remember, that stuff's transgontaminates. already in your gut. Microbial translutaminates, you are, 1st of all, basically, if you cook it, you're deactivating
+
+[41:29] it, the greater part of it, you're deactivating it. And 2nd of all, it functions slightly differently. The problem is when you go to look at the studies, right, so some people have said this. Some people have said, if you add microbial transgotaminates to things that contain gluten proteins, what you're actually doing is
+
+[41:49] pre-react, you're making them stronger, so you don't need to have as much of them, and you're also pre-reacting those proteins together so that they can't really undergo those reactions in your gut.
+
+[42:00] Therefore, maybe it makes it less reactive for celiac suffers. That has been, as far as I can tell, inconclusive. On the other side of the coin, perhaps these larger um, proteins that are made by cross-linking actually are more uh, inflammatory and actually um, cause more inflammation. This has also not been shown, conclusively one way or the other. The 3rd question is, is if the microbial transglutaminates somehow survives
+
+[42:31] cooking, or if you're eating it raw, and makes it through the gut, could it mimic what's going on with tissue
+
+[42:37] transglutaminates in your gut? Also, this has not been conclusively tested one way or the other. So as far as I can tell, none of these things have been tested. Now, what has been tested, because Aginomoto is worried about this, are the very, these things. But I will say this, when you read the studies, some of the studies that I've gone through, I
+
+[42:59] think including that food industrial microbial transclutaminates article and some of the other ones, that if they're paid for by a
+
+[43:08] Ginomoto, just take that into account, right? that the people that make the transcontaminates are have an axe to grind in this in this situation. Now, the, and their main points are these. One. Uh, they took uh, pasta, and they transvotaminated the heck out of it, and then they tested to see whether it uh, created more reactive uh, antibodies, I guess, in the human, in the human body, and they were not able to cause that to happen.
+
+[43:41] So they're basically saying, it doesn't seem to make things like pasta that have been reinforced with
+
+[43:47] transglutaminates more reactive than they were before. That's their 1st point. Their 2nd point is, is that, is that, you know, you should not, if you
+
+[43:57] are suffer from a celiac or intolerant of gluten, then you shouldn't contain things, you shouldn't eat things with gluten in them to begin
+
+[44:06] with. And therefore, if there's gluten and transglutaminates, then that won't be a problem, right? Now, what that kind of leaves out is the fact that there's still the possibility, as yet untested, that things that are reacted, that might cause a response, um, and, and you, when they're cross-linked by translutamines, um, wouldn't have caused a reaction in someone, if they hadn't been linked by
+
+[44:34] translutamines. So it's theoretically possible that you could have 2 things which someone with celiac could consume
+
+[44:40] without without problem, you meat glue them together, and all of a sudden now it will cause a problem. This has never been shown that there is a case of this, but it is a theoretical possibility that needs to be looked at. Now, a further thing that Ajinomoto says is that look at the real problem with transglutaminates
+
+[44:57] in in in your gut isn't the cross-linking, the real problem is the de-amidation. And in fact, they say microbial transglutaminates is much less likely to deamidate the protein, then tissue transglutaminates, and they did that
+
+[45:14] not, here's the problem, though. They didn't do that in someone's gut. They did that in vitro. And so their in vitro studies of microbial translutaminates did not effectively increase how much the protein had been
+
+[45:28] deamidated. So that's their argument that it's not going to do that deamination thing. And their last and final argument is if you eat raw fish, if you eat raw meat, they're full of transglutaminates anyway, actual tissue
+
+[45:42] transglutaminates from the animal sources, and you consume those things raw.
+
+[45:47] And so if those things don't cause a problem, microbial transglutaminates doesn't cause a problem either. But as far as I can tell, that's the long and the long, frankly, because all of that was long, uh, current story
+
+[45:59] on, um, transgotamination, celac disease. That make sense to us? Yeah. You're already asleep. she's got all that. She's already asleep. All right. Hey, Dave, taking notes. No, she's been taking notes. Yeah, sure. Taking notes about how to call me a racist when we get off the air, even though I had no
+
+[46:15] idea. That's what I'm just taking notes on. Oh, yeah. Hey, can I just interject really quickly? I just want to shout out, I want to shout out Ed from Milk Cold ice cream. Remember, he sent you all those ice cream sandwiches. Yeah, so do you get to go there on a regular basis now? Yeah, I've been I've been hanging with him. a cool guy. Cool. Really good guy. Just want to shout out Ed from Bill Colt. Shout out. What do you got, Dave? That's it. Dave, I got chat room is asking if you ever had a chance to look into that nitrootini thing. Did you read about this? Oh, I forget. It's this bar in Charleston that serves a martini made with liquid nitrogen at like -320 degrees Fahrenheit. Wait, is with liquid nitrogen and not with nitrous? Liquid nitrogen. All right, Dave, in the next couple minutes, if you can call up or actually, Nastasia, if you can call up how this is done and figure it out so you can give it to me, then I can rant it out real quickly.
+
+[47:04] I've got it here. Oh, yeah? All right, read it. So this is the warning label that comes with the martini. It says liquid nitrogen is served at -320 degrees Fahrenheit. Nitrootini should be given the same respect as fire. Avoid rapid ingestion of any nitrotini before consuming. Please allow a minimum of 3 minutes, wait for the cloud like liquid nitrogen, LN2, to completely dissipate or evaporate entirely. Do not attempt to inhale the water vapor during dissipation, as it may disrupt the balanced ratio of nitrogen to oxygen gas in the
+
+[47:35] air, that you breathe. Failure to follow this warning in its entirety may result in severe burns, permanent internal organ
+
+[47:42] damage, and other detrimental health problems, please enjoy safely and responsibly. Why would you serve that? An eater in Charleston describe the taste of these as it says, tastes like type 2 diabetes. Well, you know, uh, Leo Robachek, one of my favorite uh, bar uh, people here in New York, whenever he drinks a drink that's too sweet just goes diabetes. That's all he says. That's his only thing he says, diabetes. Like Wilford Brimley? Like, Wilfred Brimley, my favorite, my favorite diabetic pitch person. But the, um, he's the best. I mean, it doesn't get better for pitching diabetes stuff
+
+[48:17] than, you know, than him. I got diabetes, right? I mean, it's the best, Bittus. So anyway, so that's what Leo Robachek says. Here's my thing. Why the hell would you serve that? Why the hell... Also, they're $19? I don't care how much you charge, right? Charge a 1000000000 dollars. It doesn't matter to me. Like, if, you know, God bless, restaurants out there, bars out there. If you can charge something and somebody wants to pay it, God bless. You know what I mean? Like, everyone's got to make a nickel. Think of how much money, Dave, people make for doing things that we don't respect in life. Think of how much freaking money people go out and make for
+
+[48:52] anything. So the fact that a restaurant or a bar can charge whatever they want to charge for whatever they're doing, God bless. What do you think, Stas, right? No? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, if you think they're, if you think they're ripping you off as a customer, don't go there. I don't like them when people are like, I can't believe what they're charging. A drink should only cost $12. They go to a place that charges $12 for drinks. Yeah, don't order a drink. Don't order a drink. Go somewhere else Right, but this is also a drink that can cause permanent organ damage. That's the problem. So, like, it's the cost of it is not a problem, but why would you ever serve that? That's like, 1st of all, that's like straight up gimmick. Second of all, no drink. It's very hard to get an accurate chill with liquid nitrogen, very hard. And believe me, I've been doing it for years. So one of the reasons it's really hard is because you can't even see what's going on. It's very hard to judge how much you've added. So unless you have some sort of special volumetric liquid nitrogen adder, it's very hard to figure out, you need more than you'd think to chill it down. So odds are, you're going to get some nasty crust on the top of your drink and then a liquid underneath, very hard. If you mix it. Well, it's got liquid nitrogen. froth and spit and boil over into, into the face. And, and I don't like being told to wait. Someone's gonna drink it. Someone's gonna do it. You know what I mean? I think a better drink would be to hand someone a, 1st of all, why is there sugar in a martini? Why the hell is there sugar in it anyway? They just hit me. Why is there sugar in this martini? It's not a martini if there's sugar in it. Why is there sugar? I don't have that answer. Okay, so I think a better thing to do would be
+
+[50:35] to, uh, have a bunch of spinning razor blades, they use suspend from the ceiling right in front of the patron's face, and then say if you lean forward, your face will get cut off, and then just serve them a normal
+
+[50:51] drink, because it's the same amount of danger, if they don't follow the instructions, they get their face cut off, but at least the drink will be good.
+
+[50:58] You know what I mean? Like, I'd rather have like some other physical harm or, like, have a whole bunch of chef knives sticking straight up out of the bar
+
+[51:08] surface, and if you put the drink down wrong, you'll impale yourself. Like, it's the same same level of stupid. Why would you hand somebody a drink that could harm them? It's just really, really stupid? What do you think, Nastasia? Yeah, no, it's very, very stupid. And, you know, when somebody messes up as they will, uh, in a situation like that, you know what's going to happen? Like, people like us are not going to be able to use the liquid nitrogen anymore, even though it's completely
+
+[51:36] valid, because someone will have will have ingested the liquid. To me, it seems like it's the same level of shock as any one of any one of the other weird shock things that people do. I mean, look, again, God bless your place
+
+[51:51] if like this is the way to get the customers in. Just don't do it in a way that could theoretically harm A, your customer, and B, other people who want to use the technique in a different way. This is why we can't have nice things. This is why we can't have nice things. Exactly. That was, what's the name of that comedian that she, when she said that about her own body when she got cancer? She's hilarious. What her name? Yeah, she had she got cancer and then said, this is why I can't have nice things. about her own body. Awesome. Amazing, so hilarious. If you can laugh about that, like, you are a strong person. You know what I mean? Anyway, so, okay, I got a question here. I want to get to before we go. Emily Burns writes in. All right. I've been wanting to make hickory syrup and all the recipes I've seen use the bark of the
+
+[52:36] Shagbar Hickory. So this is not a tap the tree in the early spring, like a maple situation. You're making a bark tea and then adding sugar to it, a bark tea. Stus, what do you think about bark tea? Does that bother you or are you all right with that? She's gone. Jerry's still out. Yeah. My neighbors have a shell bar hickery tree. So I've been searching to see if there would be any difference in a syrup made from that bark. I haven't found any answers online, so I'm wondering if you had any idea. Thanks. Love the show, Emily Burns. Well, 1st of all, I looked it up again. So for those of you that don't know, Shagbar Hickory is like one of the great nut trees of the United
+
+[53:15] States. It's Karya Ovata. It's related to pecans. And I've cooked Nastasia and I and Piper when he was with us, did a lot of work with Shagbar Hickory, nuts. They're amazing. They taste freaking amazing. I like them more than a pecan, but it is really hard to get the nut out of. Now, there are various, one of the things about Shagbar Hickory is it's called, it's one of the most aptly named trees you can find because the bark looks super shaggy and
+
+[53:41] is coming off in big things. So you can go into the forest, grab the bark off of it without hurting the tree. Make a T. There's some art to making the tea, apparently, from what I've read, and then you dope in because it gets bitter. You dope in sugar and there you have your syrup. Now, the shell bar hickory has, is also known as the king
+
+[54:03] nut, and the nut itself, has the largest, I think, hickory nut, and then nut itself is as sweet as the nut in a shagbar hickory. And I think it's bark, well, not as shaggy as a shagbar hickory, is still quite shaggy. And so if you can remove the bark without damaging the tree, I'd
+
+[54:20] say, go ahead and do it. I have some shagbar hicories up in Connecticut. So then if I can ever get back up to Connecticut, I'm going to try to get some and make some of this. Now, what I don't know, you know, a lot of the other hickories, I have a lot of what's
+
+[54:32] called like mocker nut hickories and pig nut hickories. Uh, pig nuts especially have terrible tasting, uh, nuts. They're super tannic. I've, you know, I've always tried to find ones that are completely edible. I don't know if that would translate to the bark, but the other problem is those trees don't have the kind of bark that sheds off properly. So I'm going to go ahead and say that Shellbar Hickory will probably make as good a syrup as
+
+[54:56] Shagbark. And one of the reasons you don't hear about it is that Shellbark is a lot rarer than Shagbark. And I also read that in some places, the shell bark is also called Shagbark, even though they're actually 2 different species, the
+
+[55:10] shell bark being uh, Karya, uh, uh, Lasenosa, which I don't know, but Karya Alvada is the one we get Shagbark. So give us a try and let us know. I'll try to make it with my shag bark and maybe we can compare notes over the radio. Shout outs to Raymond. Loichero. Is that how you pronounce that, Dave? Lochichero? I don't know. What? A donor. I was giving a shout out. I was giving a donor shout out. Thanks for donating. Oh thanks. And that's it. back next week, back next week with more cooking issues.
+
+[55:45] Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritageradionetwork.org. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. To donate and become a member, visit our website today. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carbone from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraternetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday
+
+[0:36] from, like, you know, 12-ish to, like, around one o'clock. you know, from Roberta's Pizzeria. Where is it, Nastasia? Bushwick. Beswick. Beswick. Bushwick. Join, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez in the studio. How you doing, Nastasia? Yeah, got David in the booth, right? Also good. Yeah. We weren't here last week because I was in Barcelona. In fact, I just gave, by the way, like if you have like a coworker. It's a good idea to bring them some crap back. So I went to Barcelona. 1st of all, I had for the 1st time, that Spanish style gin and tonic. Although they're like, Catalan style. Catalan. I'm like, okay, okay, okay, whatever. Catalan style, Chan tonic. Uh, so we can talk about that later if we have time. But I went to one of these old and very well-known bakeries in
+
+[1:31] Barcelona. It's called Colmina, Colomina. It means honey, like beehive in Spanish, and it's these hard candies they've been making since 1849. What do you think? They weird flavors. Or not good. What flavor is it? It tastes like a cough job, but it's called... I'll have to look it up. Some of them are herbal. Some of them are fruity. they're all different Anyway. Call in your questions. 2 718-497-2128. 718-497-2128. Also in the cooking issues style of news. This weekend, Sunday, is the 1st day of the chow exhibit, the general one, the tomorrow we have our Kickstarter benefit, I guess, or VIP benefit or whatever.
+
+[2:11] And then on Sunday is the opening. So if you want to head down to 72, 62, rather, 62, Bayard Street, uh, right off McCarran Park in Brooklyn, they say it's Williamsburg, but in real life, it's Greenpoint.
+
+[2:22] all know it's Greenpoint. Right, so I mean, if you have to, so for those of you that have never been to New York,
+
+[2:27] like, there's this like horrible road called the Brooklyn Queens Expressway, the BQE, and it basically cuts a whole section of Brooklyn and Queens off from the rest of the universe, like towards the waterline, and
+
+[2:40] generally, like, once you cross under that, you're not in Williamsburg no more. You know what I mean? What do you think, David? You agree with me on this? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. I mean, McCaren Park, that's like Greenpoint, yeah? Anyway. Yeah, sure. He's like, I don't really care. I live really far away from there so I kind of don't. That, you know, the thing is, is that, like, the individual neighborhoods in New York have become so hip that, so when I was, like, you know, 20 something years ago, like, uh, when I worked in a metal fabricating shop in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, called SFW, as in so blanking what metals, that was literally the name of the shop where I
+
+[3:20] worked, inhaling, like, black metal dust all day long. But so what? But so what? But there was no one there. I mean, like, it was like, like, the idea of a hipster, like, when you told someone you were moving to Greenpoint, they're like, where? what? Now, it's so hip in Greenpoint, that the people in Greenpoint never leave Greenpoint. So they're like, in other words, the point being that they're so insulated there in Greenpoint
+
+[3:45] Land that like, why be so close to Manhattan? Like, what's the point? Like you might could be anywhere, anywhere. Anywhere. Columbus. Columbus, yes. Exactly. Right? Because it's not like it's not like hipster hubs in those places. Sure. And like, you know, I guess there is a theoretical G-train connection from Greenpoint to the rest of New York City. No, it's kind of just theoretical, right? Yeah, I mean, I live in Didmus Park, so that is definitely theoretical. It's like 20 stops on the G or something to get from Williamsburg to Titmus. How close is that to the Ditmas Avenue stop on the F? Um, I'm about a 10, 15 minute walk from that. I'm closer to the B and the Q. Do you go to Train World ever? That's like an awesome, huge model train shop right on Gitmas. Nope. Missing out. If you're a model trained person as my, you know, my
+
+[4:39] son, Booker, is a... Would you imagine like the idea of Nastasia sitting in her work? You'll hear me talk about trains and then go home and hear Booker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because all Booker likes his trains, but like subway trains only, but like now I have this image of Nastasia going home, putting on one of those blue and white engineer hats, you know, those like
+
+[4:58] cats playing with your model trains all day. Maybe it's her secret obsession. And when I call, it's like, you hear the, you hear the, whee, clack, clack, clack, clack. I'm like, what is that, Anastasia? Nothing, shut up. Just running her model trains all day? That would be the ultimate secret. It would be amazing. It's just not in your character at all. Like, you have, like, 5 levels, like, going all over. I would, though, have one, like a Christmas train. Oh, around the tree? would, yeah. Do you want one? I would, yeah. I can bring some I can bring some tracks home. I don't have any room. If I have a big... I can give you the menu. I know, I know, I know, I
+
+[5:33] know. For the tree. The minimum oval is 31. But then I want all the little Christmas houses too. Now you're talking a lot. The minimum oval on an O gauge train is 27 inches. Call 027. That's small. I'm telling you, you can get a small track, you know,
+
+[5:50] but you have to only certain engines run on the 027. Maybe. The restaurant on the 031. Booker would loan you one of his Santa Fes because he does not care. He only cares about a Santa Fe. I have plenty of track. Do they have Metro North one? Now you're talking money. What's your licensing stuff? Like, so like this one company, MTH, used to have the license
+
+[6:09] for uh, the subway, the New York City subway, until they put out a graffitied model, MTA was like, crap on you. Crap on you. So they gave it back to Lionel, but because it's an official license, Lionel like totally rakes you over the coals for the money. So what MTH did is they started selling non-licensed things that look exactly like the MTA things. They just don't have the MTA stickers, and then other jokers are something the MTA stickers stick on it. Of course you would. You're just like me that way. You're like, yeah, I don't really care whether it's real nuts. A couple of scam artists for the Christmas tree, you know. Anyway. Well, it's a couple of scam. Please. Oh, my God, Dave, if I did the MTA train, then you'd have to build, I mean, the Metro North, you'd have to build a
+
+[6:52] little leather man. Oh, my God. Did we talk about Leatherman on the air? Yeah. Dave, we talked about Leather Man, right? The guy who walked around Connecticut, guy who I would be, were it not for the fact that I have a wife and kids? Maybe Leatherman? I don't recall that. You don't call it Leatherman? Is that like a dungeon kind of thing? Leather daddy? No, it's not. It's not really cooking related either, but there's this guy, there's this
+
+[7:15] guy, and nobody knows his real name. People say they know his real name, but they don't. All that crap was made up. They know he was like French-ish, like he could speak some French kind of. And in the 1800s from, like, I guess, just after the Civil War until he died in, I think, 83 or 89, 1889, he would just walk a 300 and something mile trail looping from Westchester, right over by the Hudson by Ossening, up over, through into Connecticut, down
+
+[7:46] the Connecticut River, down the Connecticut River, and then along the shoreline and just loop it. And he would walk about 10 miles a day. Every day of the year, rain, wind, snow. The biggest blizzard of the century they had in the 1800s, stopped him for, I think, 3 days, put him 3 days behind schedule, and he would just sleep outside under these rock overhangs, which they call
+
+[8:04] leather man caves, even though they're not actual caves, because Connecticut doesn't have real caves. And like occasionally people give them stuff to eat. And he sewed all of his clothing. There are pictures of them. You can look them up. They sewed all of his clothing out of discarded boots that he cut the tops off of and laced them all together into this
+
+[8:19] like big like outfit. So there are there are Photoshopped images of my face over the leatherman's body. Because I would, if it wasn't for the fact that I had kids and a wife, you know, those
+
+[8:31] are your only anchors to prevent you from spinning out of control into that world. Pre pretty much. We wouldn't do civil war reenactment. I would do leather man. Leatherman reenactment. Someone already did it. Someone I did let him in. But, well, the other reason, look, like, I have a place in Chester, Connecticut, and
+
+[8:45] you used to walk through Chester, and, like, I spent a good portion of my childhood in
+
+[8:50] Chapqua slash Mount Kisco, New York, and he used to walk through Mount Kisco. In fact, he died on the Westchester side. So basically, I'm already living the Leatherman life anyway. I already, I'm already so cheap that I'll walk anywhere for no reason, like without having, you know,
+
+[9:04] uh, So, you know, I feel... What's the point of anything? He's just walking. So existential. You know, I know, but what would the point be for you? Point for me? Yeah, what else am I gonna do? I've already lost my house because I haven't paid my bills. I've already like... I'm saying, if I didn't have a family to attack me down, You know what I mean? I'd be, I'd be a nightmare. Anyway, so back to cooking related things. By the way, we had a question a couple weeks ago on hickory syrup, and I report back that I made some. So hickory syrup is not like maple syrup and that you don't make it from the sap of hickory, you make it from the bark. And, um, you know what? Okay, so for those of you that don't know, the most famous kind of hickory
+
+[9:51] tree in terms of the nuts anyway, is called the Shagbar hickory. And there are some other ones. Many of them have awful flavored nuts like the pig nut hickory taste, and the bitter nut hickory clearly are terrible tasting hickories. There's also the mocker nut, which doesn't, I don't think, taste bad, but it's just very difficult to crack. And the shell bark, which has a variant on the shag bark. But anyway I digress. So the nuts are delicious. And then, you know, we've talked about it a couple years ago. We went on a hickory nutcake. We love hickory nuts. Hickory nuts are awesome. I love them. They're delicious. They are like, you know, pecan is a good nut, which is closely related to hickory nut, but the hickory nut is actually, in my opinion,
+
+[10:27] a superior, not just much harder to get to. So, and smaller than a pecan. So the pecan wins from a commercial standpoint, whatever. Whatever. And Nastasia, that's another thing you don't like, right? Pecan pie? No, not really. Oh my god. I do like your pecan sours. Yeah, those are good Yeah. Well, Nastasia, we won't get into it because not family friendly. What Nastasia did at the event where we were making those things. No, that was. Oh, yeah. No, that was you. You got so angry they wouldn't let you behind the bar at the YMCA. It's not safe for work, what happened in that situation. That's, you know, for the next time we have an unexpurgated, uh, cooking issues, then, uh, you know,
+
+[11:09] someone can call in and request that they get the Nastasia Lopez YMCA Pecan story. Let's do that. We'll get Johnny Walker sponsor. Yeah, all right. We can say that we made it with Johnny Walker. Who knows? I mean, I don't even remember what we made with you. No. I have no idea. Anyway, I just remember the story, the anger, and well, whatever. got to get it. It involves, it involves dietary laws. It's a nightmare. So yeah, it's religion, dietary laws, Nastasius, you know, lack of respect for either. Anyway. Uh, so back to Hickory. So Shagbar Hickory, one of the interesting things about it is that it is one of the most aptly named trees that exist, the bark looks shaggy, almost like
+
+[11:54] a 60s rocker, feathered out hair. You know what I mean? Like it just comes off in big kind of strips and it's layered as it comes down the tree and it peels off.
+
+[12:03] What that means is you can harvest the bark rather easily without damaging the tree because you can just rip off the pieces. In fact, I have some pictures of the bar. post it later. Uh, you know, after I post my obligatory post for, uh, you know, who Nastasius is getting mad at me. Uh, because it turns out if someone, this is separate, but if someone pays you money, you have to do a certain number of posts and they don't pay you the money until you've
+
+[12:24] done said certain number of posts and I'm terrible at that. And so Nastasia has been riding me like a trick pony for like a week and a half . Just put up the last post. Whatever, please. Okay. I'm a bad man and stipulated. So the, um, so anyway, so someone asked me about making it and he takes trips or, they're not tips or tricks that I had. So I went out into the woods because I know where I have a Shagbar Hickory. It's actually on the neighbor's property, but whatever, what the hell do they know? They're not using it. So I went up and I ripped some of the bark off without damaging the tree. And by the way, so I didn't measure anything, but I harvested enough for about 3 liters of
+
+[12:58] syrup and I harvested it in like under 2 minutes because it's just like snap, snap, snap, snap,
+
+[13:03] walk out. Now, here's the techniques I used in case you know, I thought it came out very well, so you follow these techniques, again, with no measurements. I took them back inside. I scrubbed them to get any sort of moss, lichen, or like, you know, buggy, like, you know, you know, caterpillary, tenty crabs off of them because that's gross. I snapped. I then snapped it into pieces that would fit into my oven. I toasted them in the oven. Well, I baked them in the oven at 350 to 375 for like 10, 15 minutes until I started to get the aroma out, opened
+
+[13:37] it, the oven, let them flash off and get, you know, dry, snapped them into small pieces. Um, you know, fairly small pieces, like, I don't know, like an inch, inch and a half . It wasn't too anal about it. Here's the one kind of tech trick I did. I then put them in a vacuum machine and sucked a vacuum on them in water, like two, 3 times to infuse them rapidly so that they'd be rapidly infused with water,
+
+[14:00] wouldn't float at the top. I thought that was a good idea. Then I put them into a big pot with water. I covered it and added a little more, but I wanted to keep it a fair. I wanted to have a very high. See, people have problems with this becoming bitter, and so I didn't want it to become bitter, and usually the way you do that is you do relatively quick steeps with relatively large amounts of product
+
+[14:20] into not as much water. So I did that. And then I brought it up to a boil. Uh, turned it off, covered it, let it steep for a while, kept checking it when it was brown, but not too bitter. I strained it, discarded the bark back outside. Then, uh, I reduced the um, product down by a factor of two. So I started with about 4 liters of
+
+[14:44] stuff, liquid, four, 4.5 . I reduce it down actually more than twice, reduced it down. Then after it had been reduced down to little less than half. I added equal weight in of sugar, stirred it into a
+
+[14:59] syrup, and that was it. And it was good. So the things I recommend, I recommend if you have a vacuum, you do a vacuum infusion so that you have the water on the inside really quickly. I recommend, like, bring it up to a simmer, then letting it steep and keep testing it while it's
+
+[15:12] going so it doesn't get too, too bitter. And then I recommend draining and then reducing it substantially to increase the flavor profile before adding the sugar.
+
+[15:19] And I've used it so far in, I made it old-fashioned with
+
+[15:23] it that was delicious, in my opinion. Uh, and now it's just, you know, 3 eighths of that hickory syrup and 2 of uh, whiskey and uh,
+
+[15:32] a dash or 2 of Ango and orange twist. I also, um, because it does have some uh, tannins in
+
+[15:40] it, is it slightly has some slight bitterness in the back. I did a I used it in a shaken sour, which was actually interesting, but not with bourbon. I did a daiquiri. I did an aged. I did an aged rum, egg white, hickory syrup daiquiri, and it was really good and some of the, yeah, the egg, yeah, the egg white. Interesting. I also tested that recipe, Nastasia, just for the, just for, you know, giggles. I tested it in an ISI whipper and EC whipper to see what would happen. I was like, you know what? I hate doing cocktail foams, right? I always hated doing cocktail foams, so I don't do it. Uh, so, but since I'm not, I don't have a bar anymore. I can kind of do whatever I want. So I was like, uh, well, what if I would have put this cocktail into like a FOMA with the egg white? So I did a dry shake in the thing, then I added the ice, shook it, added that nitrous, shook it, and then pumped the cocktail
+
+[16:28] out, and Nastasia, the cocktail filled like 3 glasses. One cocktail filled like 3 glasses, 100% foam, 100% foam, no liquid. I was like, what the hell am I gonna do with this? But it was good, but like, do you want to drink a foam? You can put it on pie. Right? Oh, that's a good idea, like a cocktail pot. Eventually it settles out, but you have like minutes. You have on the order of, like, minutes. Yeah, if you put it on like a pumpkin. That's a good idea. A daiquiri on top of a pumpkin pie? That be good. be really good. Yeah, nice. I mean, it needs to be contained a little bit. So maybe you'd have like some pie in the bottom of a cup, like
+
+[17:03] a parfait cup and then some of that stuff on top. That's that's not. That's not. I like pumpkin pie. You know what I know? A little bit tipsy on the film? Are you? A little bit? yeah, a little bit. yeah In fact, I could probably dope it back with cream too, and make it, like, really? Now you have Lil Jaquan going through my head. Everybody in the club, everybody in the club get tipsy. Anyway, so that was what that's my results with hickory syrup, and thanks for whoever brought it up, so that I could test it. I recommend going out and foraging for that crud. Here's a question on fryers from 80 in Russia. You have spoken about this before, but I can't find your answer. Like espresso machines, traditional deep fryers and British fish and chip shops. What do you think about the fish and chips? as opposed to like French fries, chips? What do you think about calling them chips? I guess they called it first, right? Who says that? don't know. They're not called British fries. I don't know. Traditional deep fryers in British fish and chip shops worked by the thermal mass
+
+[18:05] or the huge fryer warming up, fired by gas, and recovering after the addition of bucket loads of cold potatoes to make chips. I see, excuse me. I see commercial line fryers, meaning continuous fryers, I guess, that make potato
+
+[18:19] chips like lays or tortilla chips that have PID controllers and internal conveyor belts to move the product through the oil.
+
+[18:27] If I want to increase consistency and temperature recovery, is it worth adding a PID over the thermostatic control on a
+
+[18:33] bench top, electric deep fryer, best 80, a cold Englishman in Moscow, Russia. And PS, before I answer this question, PS, Nastasia. Is there any chance you could get Mark Ladner on to talk about the Del
+
+[18:43] Posta Kopuk on the air? I for one, am interested. You said you'd do it next Tuesday? Really? All right, there you have it. Next Tuesday, people. Tune in. be ready for it If they're still talking to me. Next week on Monday is the 1st installment where I go to Oto. You know, the Mario Bitali's pizza restaurant. And I have to go all the time, right? Every time you're there? If you don't I'll murder you. And so I have to prep. I'm going to Oto and we're and I'm going to be making cocktails behind the bar at Oto. So I'm doing a, uh, I think I'm using some, I'm doing a carbonated tomorrow, uh, like, you know,
+
+[19:19] spritzer with, uh, probably with lime, uh, and I'm doing a, uh, apricot into bourbon, uh, hostino, and I'm
+
+[19:28] gonna do a Italian basil, nitro model, uh, gin sour. What do you think? I think I'm going to add a little bit of string into that son of a gun. How long are you there for? How many hours? Like, I don't know. I think from like something till close. What time do they close? Four? In the morning? Pizza joint? Four, right? Really? I don't think I'm going to be there till four. It doesn't really matter. As soon as soon as my kids are asleep and my wife's asleep, it doesn't matter what time I come home. Straight leather man, yeah. Yeah, go leather man to start walking. They're like, where are you going? Go straight leather man. It's like, well, I got to get up out of the city so I can get back on my loop. He didn't like traveling in cities because people in the cities used to pick on
+
+[20:09] them. So he would avoid the, he would avoid the main, the main routes. And for those of you that don't know, who've never been to the Northeast here. Like, a lot of that kind of land where he used to walk around is forested now, but back in the day,
+
+[20:21] wasn't it? It was all cleared. There weren't a lot of like, you know, forested trees around. That stuff is all 2nd growth. So yeah, so he would just like, there'd just be these rock outcroppings where he'd go hang out and like, you know, cook whatever and heck he was eating because he also had, I
+
+[20:34] think, like a tin pot. Apparently he, a lot like me. He would carry like 60, £70 of gear around for no
+
+[20:40] reason, just for no reason. like all the time. He's only walking 10 miles a day. So you say the encroachment of civilization is hurting Leatherman? Well, he did. He died. He had cancer. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He died in the 1880s. Yeah, yeah. He was doing this in the 1880s. I think I may have come back and said, like, he had some sort of horrible mouth cancer that was eating away at his lips for the last year,
+
+[21:02] year and a half of his life. And someone tried to take him to the hospital. He's like, and then got back out and started walking again. Now that's commitment. You know what I mean? Never stop. Never stop. Don't stop till you drop, man. That's it. Boom. It's like, why are you, you know, why do you engineer, Dave? Like, why are you sitting there engineering? I just because they pay you, but why do you need the money? So you can eat Leatherman ate. He didn't have any money. And what I'm saying? It's like, what's the reason of doing anything? He's like, I'm walking. Anyway. So we should all just walk is what you're saying? No, I'm saying it's like, you know, he had a goal. I'm going to walk 10 miles a day. I'm going to carry my crap with me. I going to wear boots. Was that his goal to do 10 miles a day or that was just incidental? think it was incidental, right? He was pretty much, he was like a watch. People would be like, uh, it's time for the leather man to come around. He wasn't like a pro walker. He was just like a survivor. So, okay, so if he liked you, like, if he didn't really want to talk to you. So there's this one group that took a, like that, like, would give him soup or whatever and he'd stop by and you'd take it, he wouldn't talk to
+
+[22:01] him or anything. But one time they set up like a camera with a sheet over it, and then as he was sitting, they dropped the sheet and took the picture and there's this picture of him where he has this kind of like... Look on his face? I thought this was in the 1800s, you said? That camera was the 1800s, man, get with it. Yeah, but didn't it take like hours for it to take a photo? This is like the 1870s. I think they've, it's a little bit better than like in the 1860s where they're like, I'm not up on my history of photography. I mean, it wasn't like instant. But anyway, so anyway, they surprised me. They weren't Polaroids. Right. He never went back to that house again. So like what happened is like if you were nice to him and he like liked you, he would come back to your house every or your
+
+[22:37] whatever, every 34 days. Did he talk? Not much. It's about a holes in the story, don't you think, Nastasia? I mean, look, I've read all of the relevant literature. has read everything. So the point is, is that he would show up and then, but if you were mean to him or like,
+
+[22:55] we're like trying to force him, he'd be like, you'd never show up again at your place. He's like, you're, I'm done with you. Give you wide berth. Kind of a good thing, right? If it doesn't show up. And everyone kind of wanted him to show up. At that time in the US, there were a lot of what's called anti-tramp laws because a lot of people were roaming
+
+[23:08] around. A lot of people were displaced from like traditional farmland traditional jobs. So there was a lot of wandering, a lot of tramps, like hobo style, but like earlier. And, um, they were widely hated, and a lot of people like passed anti-tramp laws, and in fact, there was lots of beatings, murdering of tramps, people like
+
+[23:26] had, doing all sorts of terrible things to vagrants. So this is not just a modern phenomenon. Uh, and, um, he was the one exception. People were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, anti-trampla, but don't mess with the letterman. He's dumb. No. You know what I mean? In fact, like these one group of people basically got the snot beat out of them for messing with the leathermen. Can you post a photo of the letterman? Yeah, actually, chat room just linked me to the Wikipedia page and there's some photos. Nastasia's talking about the one that's my face on the Leatherman's body. Oh, yeah. I didn't spend that much time Photoshopping it. I didn't, for instance, although it was a perfect look, it's in black and white. Yeah, I mean, what you really want to do fake the photo is obviously pose yourself in the same sort of pose that the person was in and try to match the angle of the
+
+[24:09] camera. I just like found the fastest photo I could find on the internet, cut out my face and stuff it onto the letterman's body. And really, if you wanted to go full method, you would have to be like living like Leatherman for at least a week or so just to get into that mindset. I think it takes a couple of years. I'd have to learn French. First of all, and then not speak it to anyone. That would be like the 1st the 1st thing. I mean, I used to know some French, but not enough. Anyway, back to the question. But we were talking about here. Should I add a PID controller to my fryer so that I can approximate what happens in continuous frying, 80? And the answer is no, you should not. And here is why. Uh, or as Mirvol would say, here is why. should not. That's a mix between Mirvold and my professor, Raymond Goist, from college. Or as Leatherman would say, Porkwell. Yeah, or just... That's what he would say. You like Leatherman, how is the food? And then you would just walk away. Anyway, do you trying to get me back off, Dave? Trying to get me back off topic? I don't like the way you phrase that sentence. Oh, come on. This is one of the family shows. So anyway. So anyway, so you don't want to do that. Here's why. And a continuous, continuous frying is exactly what it says it is. It's continuous. That means you don't want any change one way or the other. They are extremely, they're typically very long, and they're very, very highly regulated. So, uh, you know, the 1st like two, three, 400 pounds. I don't know, depends on the size of a line, but the 1st whole bunch of stuff that comes out of the fryer is not
+
+[25:34] going to be right. Uh, it'll be over, it'll be under, whatever, until everything comes into equilibrium. And so typically these things take a long time to calibrate, but then they run them for, you know, forever. So, like, they have a PID controller on their oil because they want to keep the oil at a certain place at exactly the same temperature.
+
+[25:52] They know that they're adding X number of pounds of potatoes or tortilla chips every
+
+[25:57] hour, and they eventually know what heat average heat input they need into the oil to keep it at
+
+[26:02] the right point. And there's a gradation, probably definitely in the oil temperature from the beginning of the line to the end of the line, but everything stays constant because they have a relatively constant heat
+
+[26:13] input. They have a really relatively constant potato input, and they're also adding fresh oil because the miracle of continuous frying.
+
+[26:20] The miracle of it is that you can, you absorb oil, uh, you add oil at the rate that it is absorbed by your potato or your tortilla chip, and if you get everything just right, then the oil is always perfectly
+
+[26:33] conditioned because brand new fry oil is not good and old fry oil is not good. The reason brand new fry oil is not good, is it actually is, um, too pure and it doesn't bond
+
+[26:43] as it doesn't, uh, um, transmit heat as well to the, uh, chips. A little bit of breakdown makes it slightly more polar and transmits the energy much better to the chips. So you actually want it to slightly break down. But you don't want it too much. And so in a continuous fryer, you can keep everything perfect by adjusting the rate of product in,
+
+[27:04] potatoes or tortillas, and the rate of oil in so that the oil in there is constantly right. So it's all about juggling these kind of, that's why you can't make just a few things in a continuous fryer. And for that, PID is perfect, perfect. Everything is perfect all the time. The oil is always the same. The potato chips or whatever are always the same. Everything takes exactly the same amount of time. awesome. By contrast, in batch frying, you are dumping a load in to a single
+
+[27:35] batch. The temperature's gonna drop and you need to get that temperature back up. Now, here, you don't want a PID. Now, you could have a PID. that realizes, but it's just very aggressively tuned so that it rockets back up close to your finished temperature, but then nose to slow down a little bit as you're coming up so that you don't overshoot a lot. So there might be a situation where you don't where you can win over a standard like bang, bang, uh, thermostat, but depending on the amount of temperature rise you're going to get. Usually, let's say, let's say you dump a bunch of stuff into a deep fryer, and temperature drops real low, it turns heat way on, and you're rocketing up through to your set point. Now, if you have only a small amount of product in there, maybe it can overshoot a lot, but odds
+
+[28:17] are, by the time if your fryer is really powerful, by the time it hits that hits back at its temperature, you're still boiling a lot of water off out of your product, so you shouldn't get that much of a rise out of it, theoretically, especially if you have good convection in it, which is why real tube fryers are awesome because they don't tend to locally overheat your oil because they have a much larger surface area to put heat into the oil.
+
+[28:40] anyway. So, uh, if you have an actual commercial fryer with a
+
+[28:45] bang bang thermostat on it, it doesn't tend to overheat your oil, um, and they're pretty awesome. And really, you don't need single degree control over the oil
+
+[28:54] uh, temperature anyway. You just don't want it to get too, too low and you don't want it to go high and you want your
+
+[28:59] recovered to be fast. So I would say, no, do not PID it. Although, um, The Converse, I'm going to go back, I want to say, if you're going to pot fry, uh, I think having a, um, using one of those controlled, like, induction units for frying can be very useful because it's very hard uh, at
+
+[29:17] home uh, to pay attention to a fryer all the time when you're doing a bunch of other stuff, and it's very easy to overheat your fry oil on uh, on a
+
+[29:26] stovetop. And so one of these inductions, like the Brevel one that I got sent or any of the other
+
+[29:31] ones can be very useful in keeping your fry oil so it doesn't go up too high. And certain of those, like the Brevel, can have like an aggressive setting where it can get back up to a temperature aggressively.
+
+[29:42] It's not as much as like on off, but it's much more aggressive than the more standard PIDs. And a lot of PID technology, by the way, in terms of cooking and a lot of what's different between different circulators is how aggressive their strategy
+
+[29:56] is, a more aggressive strategy will get you to the temperature faster, but have some overshoot. Anyway, what do you think? Good job. Okay. Anthony from Nashville writes in about Booker Index. Hey, Dave, Hammer, David, and guests. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about closing down Booker and Dax in the process of finding a new location. Well, you'll be looking for in a new spot and what kind of changes will you include in the new bar and why? Maybe it's me, but it seems like he didn't talk about it too much on the show, which is why I had to get information from the internet. Sorry if I'm bringing up a store subject. Anyway, you guys are great. Love the show, Anthony, from Nashville. Uh, the problem, Anthony, is that, um, there's only so much that I can say, uh, because, um,
+
+[30:38] Because I'm not allowed to say, like, exactly, like, who's going to be involved or what, uh, you know, what the arrangement is
+
+[30:46] going to be, what the name of the bar is going to be, et cetera, et cetera, because we're, we're all in negotiations for these
+
+[30:52] things uh, at the moment. I can say this. I'm looking for space. I've looked at several spaces. I haven't found a space yet that I think is right. Um, as for what's going to be different or the same, um, you know,
+
+[31:06] what I want to be, this, I think the core of Booker and Dax was, um, the
+
+[31:11] bar. The core was that we were going to work very hard to make the drinks as good as we can make them and present them in a non-pretentious style. We were, you know, using new techniques and trying to focus
+
+[31:25] on uh, working on flavors. So it was very specific idea behind drink
+
+[31:31] creation, and from a customer service standpoint, we really wanted it to be, like I say, friendly and non-pretentious,
+
+[31:38] and, you know, a place that you'd be comfortable to go and hang out and have some fun.
+
+[31:43] So that was the goal. I think there, you know, we hopefully, I think, succeeded on those 2 counts. I think in the future, I want to, I'm interested now in the fact of why people go to the bars and
+
+[31:57] I think it's to feel awesome, right, stars? Like, I think you want to look awesome. Not necessarily that everything looks awesome, but that you feel like you look awesome. You feel like you are awesome. I think that's almost, it's not almost, it's more important than the drink, right? Like the fact that you feel kind of special or like that, you know,
+
+[32:16] uh, that you just feel good. Like, why else would you go to a bar? If you want to feel crappy, you go home. You know what I mean? Not that going home makes you feel crappy stuff. I'm not saying that. But, uh, so I'm going to focus on those kinds of uh, things more in the in the next go around. Not that we didn't focus on them before, but I'm going to kind of put those in prime place. And also, I want to make our carbonation system a little better. You know, there's a bunch of like tweaks and things, uh, depending on the people I'm working with, new techniques might be available to us that weren't before because I was
+
+[32:46] so, I might not be as, uh, uh, vehement about not using some techniques. I don't know, look, will we use garnishes? I don't know. I doubt we'll use a lot of garnishes. We're never going to be a garbage heavy cocktail bar with garnishes, but I don't know. it's yet to be seen So it's not that it's a sore subject. It's just there's certain things I can't say, and I found also that, like, until you have something concrete to say, it's usually, you know, best not to say much at all,
+
+[33:13] right? It's true. Yeah. Jeff from Los Angeles writes, uh, hey, gang, I've recently gotten to brewing. I'm thinking about using a circulator to do a brewing bag all grain setup during MASH, running the circulator outside the bag and probably with a hop sock. do you think about that word, hop sock? What does that mean? It's like, you know, like a. like a dance you go to in high school? Now you have like at the hop. like going through my head, but no, it's like it's like a bag to hold the hop so that they could pull them back out again. Around the circulator as insurance in case anything escapes the bag. It looks like a nova tacitly approves this based on the 2015 interview they did on brewing beer with the
+
+[33:50] Anova. But the owner's manuals, for each of my circulators, I have a poly-science professional, and in a Nova
+
+[33:56] one, state that they shouldn't come into contact with food in quotes. I also contacted a nova customer service, and they said no to what was done in the article. So what's the deal? Is this safe to do with either of both my circulators? If so, is there any particular cleaning that you recommend before? or after to ensure long life for the circulators and that no off flavors are parted to the word? Thanks for your help. FYI, you, meaning me, Nastasia, yelling at you, Nastasia, and
+
+[34:21] Peter during the carbonation segment a few weeks ago was some of the most best comedy I've heard on the podcast, Jeff from Los Angeles. Also, a stand corrected, the Blue Man episode, which was the not safe for work, was even funnier. So there you go. not a family show. So here's the thing. There's a bunch of reasons why people don't say things are food grade. I can tell you this as an equipment designer. One, they simply don't want to pay to get it certified as food grade.
+
+[34:49] So, for instance, the original poly-science stainless steel circulators were not didn't have NSF approval, even though everything in contact with the food
+
+[34:58] was, in fact, food grade. Now, there's 2 issues that you come across with well, there's a bunch of issues. A, is it gonna, is the food gonna harm the unit? The answer in most of these cases is no. You don't want to clog it, right? So you want to make sure nothing can clog the circulator part, but in general, no, the food's not going to hurt the thing. Two, although I forget which one it was, but one of the lower priced circulators would not circulate oil. You remember that, Stas? you at that with me? Yeah, it was Wisconsin. It was in Wisconsin. We were doing that demo with Johnny and Hunter and we couldn't get the one circulator to go in oil because we were doing that oil water test.
+
+[35:33] anyway. I think that's either the viscosity was a problem or one of the sensors was like, this is weird and it didn't sense right, so it wouldn't work, but that was oil. So anyway, so there's is the food gonna hurt the unit? No. And then there is the unit gonna hurt the food, and this can be in one of a number of ways. One, the material itself could be unsafe for food contact, i.e. poisonous, or what most people worry
+
+[35:55] about is oils, uh, from bearings, or, uh, plastics, leeching out, uh, nasty stuff into the food, right? So that's the primary concern. In the old circulators, there were no, like the stainless steel
+
+[36:09] polyscience ones, there were, there was nothing in contact with the food. The bearings were all up top and it was all just a stainless steel impeller. There was literally nothing but stainless steel in contact. So I'm going to take that one as the base. And also, the newer polyscience ones. They're not rated for food, but the plastic, I believe, is food safe. I had this conversation with Philip Preston, but it was years ago. I can't speak about the plastics that are used in the Anova, but I will say this. In general, most of these designers would only ever specify food grade plastics simply because why wouldn't it
+
+[36:41] cost a little more, but in general, they know that people are using it for food contact. And even if it's not, even if they're not going to go get the ratings for it, they would make it that way anyway, if they're good people, which most of them are.
+
+[36:52] Okay, so back to what we were talking about. And the jewel, I don't know. Do we ask Chris Young on the jewel, whether or not, we'll find out, because, you know, he sponsored the show, in fact. So we'll find out whether or not that one is a food grade. But the materials in general are food grade. They're in contact with the material with the food. So that's not an issue. Even if it is a food grade material, you have to get special certifications. The factory charges you more for those certifications of food grade. And finally, you have to get NSF approval for it, which is, you know, an actual certification, which also costs 10s of 1000s of
+
+[37:25] dollars, because we're going through it with the centrifuge, getting our NSF approval. Um, so there's that, but the difficulty in getting the NSF approval isn't solely based on
+
+[37:34] the, um, um, materials it's made out of, but also how easy the material to is to clean.
+
+[37:42] So any portion of the unit that can't be disassembled and cleaned in a way that the people who are certifying it are happy
+
+[37:49] with means that it's not going to get NSF approval. So in fact, even the centrifuge is another example, certain design parts of the centrifuge are actually not ones that I like.
+
+[37:58] I hate them, but I have to have them there because the factories tell me that I won't be able to get NF certification, for instance, unless certain parts can be broken
+
+[38:06] down and washed separately. So a lot of whether or not something is rated for food contact might be whether or not
+
+[38:12] the NSF people said that it could be washed out. Now, that said, that doesn't mean that you can't wash the stuff, even if it's got like crevices. It just means it's more difficult to clean out. So as long as you're willing to take the time to clean it out, I would feel safe serving that stuff to my family. What do you think? Yes. Okay. Andrew writes in about pork. Uh, I think I think, yeah, Andrew writes it about pork. I wanted to apologize for ripping on Dave the other week for disliking sweet tea. If I had known that he respected Eastern North Carolina barbecue so much, I would never have questioned his like of
+
+[38:44] a dislike of sweet tea. And for the record, if you get sweet tea in one of those amber colored glasses, it's guaranteed to be too sweet.
+
+[38:52] That's what we were talking about those now. In fact, I'm staring at some of those amber colored glasses. Thank goodness they did not serve sweet tea in this establishment. Although they do, basically, they serve that lemonade here as a concentrate and you have to add water too. What do you think about that concept? Do you like the fact that you get more lemonade for your money? No, no. It's expensive lemonade. Right, because you're supposed to mix it with water. They don't tell you to mix it with water. That's the thing. don't tell you mix with water. So, like, a friend of mine was over yesterday and someone was serving them coffee and they have this way they're like, they're serving the coffee and the coffee is too cold for his taste. And they're like, we want to serve it at that temperature. He's like, I just want my coffee hot. If you're going to serve coffee at some non-standard temperature. Standard temperature for coffee in the United States is piping hot, like crotch, scalding, McDonald's suing hot, right? So if you're gonna serve your coffee at any temperature other than that, you have to be like, the guy's like, but then you
+
+[39:42] have this, you have this happen. Hey, I want a coffee, right? And then you're like, sir, I don't know. Are you sure you want a coffee because the coffee would serve as like kind of like lukewarm? And he's like, what do you mean? He's like, and then you have to go through the whole rigmarole. This is why it's hard to do anything that's outside the norm when you have something that already has like a fundamental, like everyone knows the way it's supposed to be served. There's going to be some mishigosh. But I don't think you want to have that happen after the person has a cup of coffee that they think is too
+
+[40:06] cold. Because the guy that I was at dinner at dinner, he was like, he's like, I don't care. Where's where's the hot coffee? What can I do to get coffee that's hot? Do you like coffee that's not hot? No. You like it hot? Right. Back to Andrew's question. As I mentioned, I live in Boston. I'm unable to cook outdoors, and I have trouble smoking food indoors because of the poor circulation in my apartment. I miss Eastern North Carolina barbecue terribly. Uh, I miss going to a pig roast with one of those big oil drum grills and just pulling some meat off of a carcass.
+
+[40:38] What do you think about pulling meat off a carcass? That sounds terrible. Yeah, but it's fun though. Any advice on replicating it here? It probably goes without saying that I can't cook a whole pig in my closet size kitchen, but I want the spicy, sweet, vinegary, smoky, meaty flavors of
+
+[40:51] Eastern barbecue pork. I'm completely open to covering my cooking slash smoke detector if it could help, but I'm not sure what the best way to do this is without endangering myself or losing my security deposit.
+
+[41:02] I have a baby sized oven. Ooh, cooking babies, terrible. Terrible. A circulator, a torch, an EC whip, a crappy coil, electric stove, and a toaster oven, if those would help at all. Speaking of my circulator, I was given an A nova precision cooker circulator. I want to use it with other fluids, such as oil and vinegar, but also don't want to ruin this wonderful gift. I know officially, I forgot this was even here. I shouldn't use anything with water, but I'm wondering if you know enough about this specific circulator. Let me know if I'm safe to use other fluids. So I can't remember whether it was the Anova or the sand stair that wouldn't pump oil. Uh, but it came back to life, so you're not going to hurt it. by doing the oil. It's not going to hurt the unit. I'm gonna put it that way. Um, I'm still catching up on the cooking issues podcast, but I've learned so much for you guys. Um, it means a lot to amateur cooks like me that, uh, someone like yourselves interested in our questions. Keep on being great. Andrew. very nice. Okay. So, what would I do? So here's the thing. So let's just get over what talk about traditional like North Carolina style pulled pork. So you're supposed to do in the real world. I mean, like old school, what you're supposed to do is chop wood, burn wood down to basically
+
+[42:10] coles, put a whole hog on split, onto, you know, on there and cook it. And I think flipping once, I think, for many, many, many hours at a low temperature, uh, basically, uh, you know, breaking down the collagens, forming a nice, uh, what they call like
+
+[42:29] a bark or crust of, of, uh, of dryness around the outside. Then after many, many hours, the inside is moist and tender, the outside. You hack it up and you put a mixture of vinegar,
+
+[42:41] um, and, uh, cayenne pepper and regular pepper, uh, you know, over it and you eat it. Okay. So, The good news about replicating this at home, and a lot of people get really bent out of shape about how to do it, is
+
+[42:54] basically almost any low cooking technique is going to get you the internal structure, internal taste of the meat to be relatively accurate.
+
+[43:03] So you'll find online many people doing uh, um, slow cooker recipes or doing
+
+[43:07] kalua style where you're wrapping the pork in uh, aluminum foil and throwing in an oven. And what that is doing is allowing you to get the high temperatures without drying it out too much. The problem is, you're not going to have, you're not going to have that crust on the outside. So people can get around at 2 ways. Now, if you're going to do it in a vacuum bag, which you can do, uh, you know, um, circulate it, the problem is, is you're never going to get a pulled pork
+
+[43:33] texture doing low temperature. You're always going to need to do a higher temperature in order for it to break down. So if you, even if I cook, like, let's say, short ribs or pork, uh, or pork
+
+[43:43] belly uh, for, you know, days and days and days. So it's very soft, but I do it at a low temperature, the structure of the meat is never the same. It doesn't render out in the same way. So the structure of the meat is never the same as kind of a traditional pulled pork. So what I would do is get the traditional cut that people do when they when they do a single
+
+[43:59] cut and that's the Boston butt or the pork shoulder section. Now, you can eat, you can go wet all the way, but you're never going to dry out the outside of the
+
+[44:09] meat and it's never going to have quite the same thing. So what you can do is you can either, you can do a, a, you know, rub it down with salt, you can use a liquid smoke. The good news, I mean, I don't, but you could use like a liquid smoke. The good news about North Carolina, specifically Eastern North Carolina barbecue, is it's smoke-esque, it's cooked in smoke, but it's not smoke-e. In other words, it doesn't taste overly smoked. So you're not going to require a lot of it. It's not like a heavy smoke cookery, even though it's in smoke for a long time. So you could, you could put it in a low, low oven, you know, look up, you know,
+
+[44:44] Meathead Goldwyn's recipes on this. You could do a combination of wrapping in foil, and putting in an oven, letting it come up, then take the foil off, and then let it flash off. I would do some maybe some salt beforehand. And that's it. So you could definitely do it, do it inside. But I would look up. I haven't done that specific one, but I do it similar to the way they do a clue. What? I keep talking about pork or I'll say... One minute. Oh, man, Pedro called in from Lisbon about melon pan, you know, that kind of thing. And I actually have some let me see if I can get through this. I also had one more question, I guess I'm not going to get to on, uh, Jeremy on measuring alcohol. Jeremy, I'll get to you next week on measuring alcohol. Let's see if I can bust through this melon pan question. Good morning, Dave, Ms. Lopez, David, in the booth and fellow members of the chat room. I'm Pedro from Lisbon, Portugal. And last June, I visited Tokyo and Kyoto as part of my honeymoon around the world. There we tasted Japanese melon pan, and since, and I want to try, it's
+
+[45:42] still good. I want try making it at home. And a melon pan, by the way, is like a bread dough, like a typical
+
+[45:48] Japanese, like semi-sweet bread dough encased in a cookie dough and baked. That's what it is. You like that idea? No melon inside. Okay. Okay. if you saw it, you'd know it. However, I follow the recipe to the tea and already bake them twice with different results. I would like you to explain if possible why the difference in the outcome. On both times, the outer layer, so this is the cookie layer, was difficult to work with, being very sticky and brittle, and I couldn't make a uniform layer. Does this have to do with the butter quality as those fellow listeners from the bakery in Seattle had the problem? Does the butter with salt without salt of any difference and could that explain the issue? I don't think so. On the 1st time, the bread dough also contains dry milk powder, by the way. On the 1st time I didn't use dry milk powder in the bread dough and realized on the 2nd time with the dry milk, the dough is lighter and more fluffy, what's the role of dry milk in the
+
+[46:34] bakery, and these are from this recipe, site called Japanese cooking 101, their Japanese basic bread
+
+[46:40] recipe and their melon pan recipe. Once again, thanks for the show. Pedro Pivo. Okay. PS, you should visit Lisbon. Yes, I should. I would love to visit Lisbon. I love Portuguese wine. I love port, and I also love Portuguese cheese. Did you ever go to Portugal? No, I want to go to Portugal. I really do. So anyway, short answers to your question. Your problem with the cookie. I looked at the recipes and let's hit the cookie dough 1st because in case they rip us off the air. The video that they shot for the cookie dough. I don't know what they were doing in the video because the cookie dough they made looked fine, but the method they used for making it was terrible. They obviously didn't cream the butter and the sugar enough. You want to, 1st of all, take your butter out of the fridge, don't bother warming it up, and according to Stella Parks, you know, they, you know, Baker, who writes for
+
+[47:30] serious heats and has their own blog and all this other stuff. In fact, you shouldn't ever let your butter get above 68 when you're creaming. I don't know, I haven't run these tests, but she swears on 10 sacks of Bibles if that's the case. But here's what I do. I take the butter out of the fridge, I hit it with a rolling pin, turn it 90 degrees, hit it with a rolling pin a bunch of times, turn it
+
+[47:47] 90 degrees. I go all the way around until it's malleable but still cold. Throw that into your KitchenAid or equivalent, hopefully with a scraper blade on it with a silicone
+
+[47:56] scraper. If not, you have to scrape down a bunch of times. Cream the heck out of that for minutes with the butter and the sugar to whip air into it. plasticize your dough. I think your main problem was that it was kind of too dense and wasn't uniform and
+
+[48:10] structure, and so it was brittle. And also when it's when there's not enough air whipped into it. Once you chill it, because you had to chill the dough to roll it out, it's going to chill such that the outside's going to be too hard and the inside's still going to be too soft.
+
+[48:23] So, in other words, uneven chilling might be an effect and the denser your dough is, the less nice it's going to act when you're rolling it out once it's chilled. So anyway, so cream the heck out of it. When you add the eggs, scrape down, and whip whip those in till they're fluffy before you're adding the flour. And I think, uh, along with not over chilling it, chilling it for a longer period of time, but not as hard. like don't freezer chill it. I think is gonna make a big difference on it because with more air, it's gonna be more plastic. It's gonna work better. It's not going to be brittle. I don't think it's your butter. I don't think it's the salt. I think it's strictly that if you follow the recipe the way they did it. They just didn't cream the butter for their cookies properly. As for the milk powder, um, the function can be different, um, milk, uh, depending on what's going on, whether it's a home powder or not, if it's
+
+[49:08] a home powder, it has fat in it, uh, and the fat is going to tenderize, but in general, uh, as long as the enzymes have been deactivated in milk, which it usually
+
+[49:16] is. I also don't know whether Japanese bread baking people 101 are using UHT milk, which has been completely deactivated from enzymes, which can reduce gluten, or whether or not they scald the milk beforehand.
+
+[49:27] They call for lukewarm milk, but the milk powder in general, you get a browner version because of the sugars. you're adding extra lactose. Typically, you get a fluffier and softer product when you add milk powder.
+
+[49:40] The actual mechanism, I'm not sure of. Anyway, so I hope that helps, and we'll get to the other questions next week on cooking issues.
+
+[49:59] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious
+
+[50:27] place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:27] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from, you know, when it was
+
+[0:38] to like about one o'clock, broadcasting from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Call in all your questions too, 718-497-2128 at 718-497-2128. Uh, join as usual, witness Dasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah? Got Dave in the booth. Yo. And we have Paul Adams formerly of popular science. Hello. No longer at popular science. No longer. So is it the science is the science is not popular or science is still popular. I am however unpopular. So, up until very recently, Paul was the editor of uh, popular scientist web content in general, uh, but he most especially was their drone
+
+[1:30] editor and their food editor. Yeah, not drones and food. Although I was discussing yesterday, Nomad, the restaurant nomad might be the 1st, I mean, I haven't spoken to them about this, but it makes sense that they would be the 1st like drone operated pepper grinder.
+
+[1:45] What you think? Why does that make sense? Because, like, they're always at the cutting edge of that kind of thing. And like, you know, you want like pepper to just kind of appear. You don't necessarily want a waiter with a giant pepper grinder. Drones kick up a big downdraft. Well, this something has to be worked on. guess. What about an overhead pepper gantry, like an X, Y, pepper gantry, and like an X,
+
+[2:09] Y, truffle shaving gantry, and an X, Y, like fresh Parmigano gantry. It just goes overhead and just... What do you think? Dial in the coordinates of the plate. Yeah, and just hit that. We love that. wouldn't you love that Yeah. I think drones are optimal for slicing meat. Well, you mean fast rotors. Well, you know that the people have worked on the butcher robot, but the butcher robot is actually one of the most difficult robot problems that exists because, in fact, one of the interesting, if you read mechanization takes command
+
+[2:41] by, what's his name, Siegfried Gideon, which is kind of the classic work
+
+[2:45] on, um, the rise of mechanization. Like, one of the interesting things about assembly lines is they were
+
+[2:54] all, like, 1st really apply to food preparation problems, like baking, but also, uh, things like butchering pigs. But the problem is, is that unlike things like guns and cars, they can't be fully, fully automated because pigs themselves aren't widgets. You know what I mean? Well, we've tried to widgetize the pig as much as we can, and the chicken and whatnot, but still requires some human intervention because just like a lot of stuff. So people have been working on the butcher robots, something they could actually robotically take a non-widget and break it down.
+
+[3:27] So it's a it's a tough problem. There's ways to go. Yeah. But I think, like, hanging a prosciutto above the table and manually flying a drone into it. So shreds of it go everywhere. That's pretty hardcore, pretty hardcore drone. No. What do you mean? Like, prosciutto is tough and you don't want, like, hacked to bits. You don't want pulled pork. I could see you doing pulled pork. Like you throw a pork shoulder up in the air and fly a drone through it. You might jam the rotor into the pork, though. And not into a prosciutto? No, because it's more stiff. You could really just kind of have a grating effect. Stas, would you, would you burn a restaurant down there tending to do that with prosciutto? Would you just walk up to the restaurant and just like light your drink on fire and throw it in? Yes. Yeah, probably. Speaking of drinks Yesterday, I had my 1st of the 4 Mondays, I'm going to work at Oto slinging drinks. Anastasia hated the drink that I made for her. So I will say a little about it. Sounds great. I liked it a lot. I think other people liked it a lot. You know the Amaro Chicharo? It's like, you know, the central of Italy thing. So it turns out that if you add water to it, uh, and
+
+[4:42] then, uh, the problem with the straight carbonating like Amaro spritzers is that they tend to lose body as they're diluted down, like the whole point of a carbonated
+
+[4:49] Amaro spritz thing is to have kind of a low alcohol drink, right? So you're not clocking in at like 13%, 13, 14%, you're clocking in closer
+
+[4:59] like nine, 10%, eight, nine, 10%. So when you're down there, in fact, this is exactly, yeah, it's right around there. So like the problem is, is that you start losing body, like viscosity. Now, you don't want to dope that up by adding sugar because the whole point isn't to be pounding a sweet soda is to be pounding something kind of refreshing and bitter and whatnot. The answer is, of course, you add glycerin. So... yeah, yes. you add gly, of course the answer. The answer is always glycerin. So you add it doesn't take a lot, by the way. So, like, you know, like a whole liter bottle of product, you know, would have like 15
+
+[5:34] mills or so of glycerin or less. It might actually, it's way less than a percent. I put in like way less than a percent. So maybe it was 15 per bottle of chicharro. Anyway, so it's like not a lot. But it makes a noticeable difference. Salt, right? And then carbonated it. And then I served it with a squeeze with a lime wedge that you could squeeze in, and it tastes remarkably like a
+
+[5:58] Coca-Cola strangely, even though the acid's not there, but the overnotes of it. So, so we called it Roman Coke. Get it? Get it? get it. It sounds tasty, dude. It's good. But for the 1st time in my life, ever, I served a carbonated drink over ice, kind of like Spanish style. So I put the ice into a Collins glass, stirred the Collins glass down, dumped out the extra water, poured in the drink, and
+
+[6:23] Stassi's like, I don't like it. I just realized Nastasia hates ice. in her carbonated drinks. That's why she didn't like to drink. If I had just poured her the freaking drink in a wine glass, she would have enjoyed
+
+[6:35] it and you know what? Like, crap on me for not remembering what Nastasia likes after all these freaking
+
+[6:43] years. I was so caught up in like the fact that I was doing something I hadn't done before, that I stopped thinking about what Nastasia liked. Like, so, like, whenever, like, it's so crap on me, my fault, my bad. Last night, I was blaming her. I was calling her bad person. in front of people. which also true. But in this case, it's like it was totally, totally my fault. A lot of people don't like rocks. Yeah. Yeah, well, they shouldn't order a drink on the rock then. I mean, if it says on the rock. didn't even see it. No, no, but I know. Why would Nastasia think I'm going to serve a carbonated drink on ice when I've never done it in my life? So, uh, but on the other hand, like, because what's pathetic about
+
+[7:24] it is that, well, you know why it is? is because I remember very unusual things that come up a lot. Like, so for instance, Cesare, Casella, friend, chef, salami maker, extraordinaire, uh, only enjoys sparkling wine. Really, he'll drink anything you hand him, but really what he wants is sparkling wine. And he wants that with ice in it. That's what he wants. So I get it for him because I don't want him to have to walk up and deal with some bartender person who's
+
+[7:52] like, you want what? So I always, as soon as I see him, if I'm working by, just get it for him. That way there's no sort of any sort of interaction, right? Because you don't want to have to have that interaction. But I feel, I think I've said this on the show before. I think Cesare has earned the right. Really anyone has earned the right to have a drink exactly the way that they want it. As long as you know what you're getting into. Yes. Within reason. Like within reason. Like, you know, if someone wants to do something that's literally violent revolting, you know, at
+
+[8:23] a public place, well, they shouldn't do that. Huh. You know, like your ability to have your drink the way you want, like stops when I retch. You know what I mean? And certain things hurt me, but if I'm not a customer, It's not a problem. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't hurt you if you see someone having ice in their in their champagne, does it? Doesn't hurt me. They hurt you, Stas? To see someone do something horrible to it. You don't care, right? They're drinking it. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's still. What do you think about like when someone takes like a fine wine and dumps like Pepsi-Cola into
+
+[8:59] it? Would you be like, would you just get up and walk out? It hurts me when people drink a fine wine quickly. Does it hurt you when I eat good food? intensely quickly? Yeah. Jiro dreams of fast. Fast food. That's basically fast, it's fast, casual restaurant. Would you really back? What? So the, I mean, I was dressed casually. Yeah, you know, Mark had to be dressed casually because he was still on the, he was
+
+[9:30] still, yeah, he was his behind was still set on spray from his trip that he'd taken right
+
+[9:36] beforehand. So, you know. Fast casual. Those, yeah, those formal... So they let us sit at that table forever to eat the cantaloupe? Was that what it was? Whatever it was. Yeah. But you know, like men's men's formal pants? Do you know they have a 2nd button on the inside that you can't see? Did you know that? Yeah. So like formal men's pants like have a little button over on the left side, like right where the thigh is, and I don't know why it's there, to be, to be honest, I don't know
+
+[10:03] why why they have that. To even out the tension, I guess, from the button that's on the right side above? I don't know. So anyway, so you can't wear that kind of pants if what you need to do is rip those suckers down because you're set on spray. You know what I mean? That's a short situation. I'm anti-shorts. I detest shorts, but in that kind of situation or some sort of baggy thing. You had a lot of people there last night. I did. You were in your funeral suit. Oh, yeah, so, well, I was bartending in a 3 piece suit and everyone was like, oh, you look so nice. I'm like, well, I was at a funeral and they're like, oh my God, I'm sorry. I feel bad for saying anything about it. which was kind of the best. Uh, well, and from Nastasia's, you know, there's a Peter Kim who couldn't be here today because he's a tool. from the Museum of Food and Drake. I was gonna say, it wasn't his funeral, right? Yeah, yeah, no. no, not yet. But the, uh, I saw him last night. Yeah? His voice was very froggy. Yes, yeah, Froggy as in Little Rascals Froggy. Remember Little Rascals Froggy? Um, I forgot what I was going to say about Peter, but he was something about, what were we talking about? It'll come to us. funerals. funerals. So, but Peter wasn't involved. Wait, so you never did the cherry thing that you were going to do with the 3 generations. You missed out. Oh my god. That's totally right. Well, let me describe what happened. That cherry probably still exists. I got to text Gerard. He can't eat that cherry now. We were gonna just, so my stepfather's father, uh, like, uh, died uh, on Friday, he's 96, 96 years
+
+[11:31] old. Uh, kind of an amazing guy up until uh, he was sick for about 2 weeks, maybe. Uh, so, you know, prior to that, 96 years old, born in 1920, ate like a horse, lived in his own house,
+
+[11:47] uh, you know, loved, loved life 100% of the time. Loved life, was the last in a long line of butchers. So, like, for generations, basically there was an alternation in names. It was, he was Archangelo, Archangelo Carmen Adonisio. And then it went back, then his father was Carmine. His father was Arcangelo. The next father up, can you guess? Carmine. And they're all butchers from like these tiny towns, uh, you know, in uh, Avalino area in uh, in Italy and they came over, uh, the, you know, the grand, the, the grand, you know, my, what would be my great-grandfather, uh, Carmine,
+
+[12:33] whose name went by Nanu, that was his name, Nanu. That was the name that they called him to his face. Everyone also had nicknames that they were called, not to behind their, but everyone. Everyone in the family has it. Like, and they're all mean, like, horses had 3 curls, like, all sorts of, some of them. No, I'm too young. Not worth not worth an epithet. So I wasn't part of the politics so much, you know, I'm sure I did, but of course, they never told me to my face. You know what? I should ask someone, like, what was what was I called? You know what I mean? If indeed I deserved a name. So, um, came over in 1908, saved up, bought
+
+[13:08] a, a butcher, you know, a shop, it had his own shop in the, uh, in the north end of Boston in the 20s called Adonisio Brothers,
+
+[13:15] because, and they would go. And so Gerard's father, you know, the, you know, um, Addy, Archangelo, Papa, who just died, he was the last generation that was running this kind of old style of butcher shop where they would drive a truck up, canvas colored truck, pick up live lambs
+
+[13:31] in from farms in New Hampshire, come down to Boston, slaughter them, and then hang them up in the shop in the old days.
+
+[13:39] So there's a picture from the 30s, which I, you know, if I get a good copy, I'll put it on
+
+[13:43] Instagram of like sheep with the fur on hanging in the shop in Boston with a live sheep in the back that they were like, you know, not really talking about. Gerard, my stepfather remembers, like him bringing live goats in and the goats, like smashing, you know, one goat butted him, uh, and they had
+
+[14:01] live, live, all this live, live, they're doing their own slaughtering. They would slaughter their own cows. Although I don't think they would go by necessarily their own cows. So they were like real old school butchers in the north end of Boston. And just
+
+[14:13] crazy, insane stories about getting ripped off, like preventing getting, getting back, even if people that ripped you off. Like these guys would rip them off on the price of live lambs. So they would drive the truck in, and then they would put, they would have canvas in the back of their truck too. They would put all these rocks in like a hold in the truck that couldn't be seen. Then they would weigh the truck. Then as the lambs were coming off, they would like dump the rocks onto the back onto the
+
+[14:40] ground. And then when they weighed it, they would have the difference in that because this farmer had ripped them off for something else on like a land that they had sold them
+
+[14:47] before. There's all sorts of crazy. There's such crazy stories. I don't even know if I should get into some of the crazy stories. Like one of the crazy stories they would tell is that, you know, they no one wanted to lose any money. everything, everything was, you know, down to the tea. You bought a live animal and you sold every scrap. So like with cows, they would take the skins over and sell them to a tanner who would make
+
+[15:11] leather. But with, uh, they, they sold a lot of meat to, uh, actually the Chinese community and
+
+[15:17] the uh, Jewish community in, uh, in Boston. And so they'd hire a rabbi to come and do the koshering thing, right? So one of the things he would tell me is that, and this is going to horrify people. So prepare to be horrified. So like, what would happen is, is they would, like, they had to pay the rabbi to do the certification on the animal one way or the other. So in other words, like animal passes, animal doesn't pass, rabbi still gets paid, right? And this is good. from a rabbi point of view because you don't want the rabbi to think that it's like, you know, that their paycheck is dependent upon how many animals they pass, right?
+
+[15:53] So one of the things they used to, uh, search for inside the cavity was that the, that I guess that the lung, the plural was not attached, right? Or something like this. So they used to know this, so they would make a small incision in the upper part that wasn't where they were checking and they would stick their fingers in and just verify that and separate out the plural lining from the thing so that it was all kosher. They
+
+[16:15] would they would kosher the animal. So it's like, not cool, right? But in the same way, I kind of, I don't respect. I would never do it, but it's kind of an interesting story, right? The other thing is, is that Gerard's grandfather, so the
+
+[16:29] great grandfather in the in the 20s, uh, 20s or 30s, made a bunch of brandied cherries, and I had one when I was a kid. They were still good in the in the like 80s, which is when I had one. And there's still, I think, 3 left. And now I have the regret. I wanted to have... you waited so long. You made the same thing. I wanted 3 generations of adanesios to get together and have the last 3 cherries, and
+
+[16:55] now it's too late. We'll have to wait for another generation to have 3 generations for the last 3 cherries. Maybe we'll wait for the cherries to be a 100 years old. I'm not sure whether he still has the cherries. anyway. Hey, you got a caller in line if you want to take that? Yeah, call her. You on the air. Hi, this is Jeff from Las Vegas. Thanks for taking my call. Hey, how you doing? I'm great. I have a question about Canning. I'd like to do some canning for the holidays for friends and family, and I was looking at some recipes to do that. And they were really pretty simple recipes, things like strawberry, sugar, lemon
+
+[17:33] juice, but they say that you can't double the recipe. And so I've been having a hard time figuring out, when can I double these recipes or not double the recipes? And I was wondering if you had an answer. Huh. Well, so, Do you have the recipe in front of you? I don't. Unfortunately, I don't have the recipe in front of me, but... Does it involve boiling? Yeah, so it's, it's, uh, water bath canning and, uh, you know, straight
+
+[18:02] up breakdown, say like the strawberries add sugar, add lemon juice, cooked down, and then, and then process through water bath canning.
+
+[18:09] Right. But in other words, there's 2 things that are going to go. There's 2 things that can go wrong with recipes that say you can't, well, three, I guess. There could be actually something that is like changes when volumes get scaled up and scaled down. But usually what happens is in a recipe that says, for instance, boil for
+
+[18:29] 5 minutes. You're going to evaporate a different amount of liquid out of that recipe in 5 minutes than you would if you were doubling or tripling the batch, right? So one place a recipe can go wrong is at that stage where you're doing the initial boil with the sugar and the acid and the strawberries.
+
+[18:46] In that case, you know, I think, obviously, with a larger batch, you're going to need to boil for the same surface area of pot, you're going to need to boil a little bit longer because what you're worried about there, and this is not a safety issue.
+
+[19:00] Like what you're worried about there is that the texture of the product is going to be right.
+
+[19:04] So I typically don't ever listen to what a recipe says in terms of minutes
+
+[19:10] anyway on a boil for something like a jelly or preserve. I always just pull some out and test it and take a look at it and see whether it feels right. Better recipe. The problem is also you're not typically boiling those kinds of things until they're a very high temperature because you're not relying on the sugar, you're only relying on the high solids to help set the pectin.
+
+[19:31] it's the pectin that's doing the setting, right? So it's hard to test from a temperature standpoint usually. So, uh, that's one reason why people can say that recipes can't double, but you can kind of get a feeling and I always just, if you boil longer,
+
+[19:46] like unless you boil a long time, in which case you're going to hydrolize the pectin because of the extra acid
+
+[19:51] it's in there, uh, you know, boil, like having it simmer for a little bit longer to evaporate off more water is not going to really hurt you.
+
+[19:59] It's probably going to give you a little bit of a harder set, the same way that if you're doing like a cranberry sauce, and you, and you don't, you know, boil it long enough, you don't get rid of some of that water, then, uh, you know, you get a looser set on your cranberry than if you evaporate more water
+
+[20:12] off or use a wider pan is another thing. Now, the 2nd thing is more of a, and by the way, let's be honest, like jams, it's going to be mold. It not going to be something that kills you. It's going to be that you didn't pasteurize and get rid of all of the mold. So there's no reason not, as far as I can tell, and please, someone in the chat room, chime in here, if I'm wrong, but there's no reason not to double treble,
+
+[20:36] quinjibble out, whatever you're going to do to it, a recipe, as long as the individual containers in which you can are all the same size, they should react the same way, as long as the vessel you're canning in, so if you have a pressure canner, can actually bring all of that product up to the right
+
+[20:55] temperature. right? So as long as long as your stovetop has enough thermal output to get a larger canner up to canning temperatures, right, then everything should be okey-dokey, as long as the size of the cans themselves.
+
+[21:11] Now, if all of a sudden you're going to be like, well, I have a jar the size of a number 10
+
+[21:14] can, well, then, you know, that's going to take a long time to heat up in the middle, and that's not, that's not so, so good. Um, but you're dealing with what I like to call a non-deadly product, right?
+
+[21:27] Strawberry with sugar and lemon juice is not going to be deadly. At worst will, you know, you won't kill all the yeast and you'll get some sort of nasty, yeasty, moldy thing in it.
+
+[21:40] But, you know, your chances of death are very low. Well, because of that, I mean, our chances are 100%, right? But, you know what I mean? But in terms of that, I'd think you're okay. So it should be more of a textual thing then because you're just not getting the evaporation in the larger quantity. That's my guess. What do you think, Paul? Yeah, I agree. I'd say it's not just texture, but the more water you cook off, the better you're preserving will be if you
+
+[22:07] have. Yeah, I mean, sometimes, though, like preserves can be too hard. I mean, like, you know, it depends on the kind of level of pectin, and then also the other problem is like, sometimes you don't
+
+[22:18] want, I mean, also like the tech, like the more the strawberry breaks down, but you need the strawberry to break down or you won't release the pectin.
+
+[22:26] I mean, there's no wind there, right? I mean, it's like, you just don't want a canned, uh, super unreduced jam because it will not
+
+[22:36] keep a lot of water. And nobody. Yeah, nobody wants also, nobody wants a really watery jam. Nastasi, what happens when someone hands you a jam and it's so watery that it like rolls off the side of your toast? the worst, right? You're like, who's this person? Why did they make the jam? Why didn't they just go buy smucker? Smuckers, does it run off my toast? Is that what you say yourself? But if you're gonna make a small batch, you can make a batch and see how your strawberries work, because you can always add pectin if you need to, you know? Um, And you can even cheat. You can even cheat. Even though you're not supposed to reset, you can always just dump more reboil it and do it, but I mean, not ideal or add more sugar. Um, is this helping or no? I think so, yeah. It's the best explanation I've gotten so far, so, and it gives me a good place to start. Alright, cool. Hey, Dave, is anyone in the chat room chiming in on jams
+
+[23:27] and doubling? Let me check and get back to you. All right, we'll check and get back. At the top of the call, Dave, you said there are 3 times when you can't scale. Will you... Oh, the 3rd one, well, the 3rd one is that there might actually be some reaction,
+
+[23:43] right? So like if you, you know, if you're like uh, trebling the amount of uh, baking soda in
+
+[23:49] a in a Myard reaction thing, it might not scale right because, you know, you're probably added a little more than you needed that 1st time around, but doing that 3 times in a row might not scale
+
+[23:59] outright, you might not break down the extra. there might be more residual. I mean, I don't know. I'm just, there might, there is, there's a possibility, I haven't run into a lot of things that don't scale, but the, another thing that's interesting, like in cocktail batching. Um, the other problem is, is that when you're scaling, you're usually saving a product longer than you would otherwise.
+
+[24:18] And so when that happens, things can change. And so sometimes people think it's the scaling that went wrong. It's like, well, no, it's the whole time that went wrong. You know what I mean? So there's, there's, whenever you're messing with a recipe, it's just you have to analyze, well, what is different now from when the 1st time that person made this recipe,
+
+[24:37] right? So is it is it the fact that you're using different equipment when you scale it up? Probably. Is it that you're using it in a different way, i.e. for a different length of time, maybe. Uh, you know, and those are the main things. It's like what actual process variables are changing when I'm scaling it up or down. Typically, most molecules don't know how large their environment is beyond a very small
+
+[25:00] scale. And so, you know, they can't know what's going on. Yeah, chat room is also saying scaling up without scaling the pan size will change the water loss. Yeah. And I think that's pretty clearly what's going on here. But I don't know why recipe people aren't clear on that. See, this is the problem. If you're ever in a position where you're going to write a recipe, right? Your editors will beg you to make it as simple and stupid as possible. And I think in a way that they're right, there's a whole bunch of people out there in Amazon
+
+[25:30] Review land who don't want any actual information. But then I feel like that's not us, right? The people that are listening to this show or me, like, we would just prefer to be told quickly,
+
+[25:44] right? Like, this is why this is like this. Like, you could do it in the introduction to the book. You can do it, you know, a short thing at each individual recipe. Um, you know, C-section on scaling recipes, right? Just on and friends, C-section on scaling recipes, but no one ever does this. And so then they're like, they, they, they, you know, they propagate these, um, they propagate these weird, like,
+
+[26:08] myths and and especially people who are technically minded. If someone says something specifically, like, you may not double this recipe. right? It's more like, well, why? You know what I mean? And then if they don't write the, the, the, you know, the section to go with it, this is why, you know? And then you put a big thing at the top of it that says, you make, if you're not gonna ever think about recipes, ignore this section. Yes. But if you are not an enemy of quality. Read this section. You know what I mean? Nastasia, I think. Yep, go ahead. I'm sorry, I guess the last part of the question for me then would be, is there any particular instance you can think of where it would be dangerous to try
+
+[26:45] and and double. Like, I understand what you're saying about the evaporation and surface area and whatnot, but is there anything I should be looking
+
+[26:54] for, particular types of ingredients or something where I'm actually creating a dangerous situation by kind of doubling or something beyond what the recipe calls for?
+
+[27:03] Well, the only time you're going to get dangerous situation. I'll give you an example Like, let's say you were to take a cube of mushrooms that is like 5 feet on a side and pack it solid.
+
+[27:20] And then all you are going to do is pasteurize those mushrooms. So you're not going to kill the botulism in it. not going to wipe out the spores. So you heat that very, you know, slowly over time, and it's
+
+[27:35] a 5 foot block, it's going to take a long time for those mushrooms in the center to get up, you have a very good chance of developing some botulism toxin on the inside of that 5 foot block of mushrooms that you're cooking at a low temperature, because you've made the recipe too big and you can't heat it
+
+[27:52] adequately, and the recipe, if the recipe then said, okay, well, I'm going to take those mushrooms up to, you know,
+
+[27:59] boiling and hold them there for a day, you would actually wipe out the botulism
+
+[28:04] toxin. So that wouldn't be a problem. You still wouldn't wipe out the spores necessarily, right? But it would probably be safe to eat at that point, but just taking it, whereas taking mushrooms in a thin pack, bringing them up to pasteurization, temperature, or whatever you want, and dropping them
+
+[28:17] down, is 100% safe in that situation, as long as you're not trying to hold them, you know, as long as you realize you haven't wiped out the botulism. You like, you know, they're safe to eat at that point, right? Not to keep forever. So, you know, that's the situation. Or, like, for instance, when people cook, uh, too many uh, pieces of meat together in a bath and they get bag bloat because they have local bacteria growth because the product doesn't heat up fast enough because they've overloaded their equipment,
+
+[28:43] right? That's where the thing, that's where it usually starts getting unsafe. It starts getting unsafe when there's equipment overload. Um, uh, and so that you're not adequately heating in the times or with the profiles that the recipe,
+
+[28:56] uh, you know, the recipe asked for. Most of the time, that is also still just a quality issue, but sometimes that can be a safety issue. Give another one. Let's say you're using, um, you know, a curing salt or something like this. If you scale up your recipe to the point where you can no longer efficiently coat all the pieces of meat with your
+
+[29:17] salt if you're doing a dry salting, Well, now you've got a problem. You know what I mean? Or if you increase, or let's say you're making a sausage and you have to do your primary bind, but all of a sudden, you know, you've been making recipes in a KitchenAid,
+
+[29:31] uh, you know, uh, and now you have to scale it up and you're doing it in trash trash cans, you know, like 50 gallon trash cans and you no longer can move
+
+[29:40] the, the, uh, the product around it. Well, you might get big chunks of meat at the bottom of that thing that don't have adequate salt. Don't have adequate whatever. So it's like, when I'm scaling up, usually I'm asking myself, am I introducing a problem based on the, and scaling down
+
+[29:56] too, goes the same way. Like there's some minimum amount of water, you can evaporate. So, like scaling down is actually, to me, the hardest, like, especially with sauces, trying to make a very small amount of something is almost impossible because, you know, you heat up your
+
+[30:09] pan and by the time you get around adding the next ingredient, the other thing has turned
+
+[30:13] to, like, caramel burnt caramel at the bottom of your pan. So it's like, to me, scaling down is a bigger problem, but you're always thinking
+
+[30:19] about, um, how the shift is changing what's going on with the product. And I think as long as you're thinking that way, you'll be okay. Well, thank you very much for your time. All right, thank you. Have a good day. You too. So, uh, you want to do the announcement or some questions? Announcement, this announcement. And now, okay. So, so here it is. So, Nastasi and I are planning
+
+[30:44] on, uh, hopefully on Black Friday because we just can't stand not ruining Thanksgiving for ourselves,
+
+[30:50] right? It's just like we can't stand it. Like, anytime that Nastasi and I have what might be a decent Thanksgiving, We're like, you know what? Uh, let's ruin that. You know what I mean? One way or the other, like, you know, maybe Nastasio will have a fight with her family or
+
+[31:05] maybe like she'll... You'll serve Thanksgiving at 7 p.m. which by the way is fine. And then like the, you know, it's like, you know, whatever, I'm going to get into this later. So the uh, so here's the thing. So, uh, we are planning on. So in other words, get ready for a Booker and Dax centrifuge pre-sale to happen on the Black Friday.
+
+[31:30] Now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason why is that we uh, we are almost uh, done approving uh, the tooling. So, uh, we need to pay for the tooling. It turns out that you need money to pay for the tooling and a bunch of other things, but we are going to, we have the prototype that
+
+[31:54] is fundamentally a production, a production prototype, pre-production prototype from the factory. So we're going to show you a video that it does 500 milliliters at a time. It's a little bit bigger than a cuisinart food processor. It also has the ability to do continuous centrifugation.
+
+[32:13] So we'll have a video out about that. And I have tested all of the relevant, some of the relevant recipes, so I can talk about that, a little bit in advance. But for chefs, it's going to be really great for herb oils. It's fantastic for herb oils. You can do it in large quantities for bar. Obviously, you have, you know, all kinds of citrus juices, like strawberry juice. It can do gustinos, um, you know, it's, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's going to be a lot cheaper
+
+[32:43] where, where the retail price, we think, we think, we think, don't hold us to this. We think the retail price is going to be $7.999. But then we want the pre-sale price. Don't hold us to it. $6.99. Yeah. So, and what we're going to do is, is we're going to have a, um, because we're going to do a pre-sale, probably not a Kickstarter, I won't want to say who we're going to partner with, but you know who they
+
+[33:09] are and you probably like them. Uh, but the, uh, because Nastasia and I are going to talk to them, in fact, like later this week, to iron it all out. So hopefully more news next week. But the, um, what we're going to do is is, is that unless we have a certain amount of interest, we're just not going to do it at all. So we're doing, we're basically saying you sign up for the pre-sale, if we get our go number,
+
+[33:32] um, you know, of sales of pre-sales, and we need to sell quite a few,
+
+[33:37] like, I forget what it is for our go number, but it's not a small number because it's expensive, really expensive to make one of these things. Um, then, uh, then you're charged your pre-sale, and then we hope to deliver, uh, sometime in like June next year in
+
+[33:53] that in that area, but more details to come as the Black Friday approaches. And good news, it will work in Europe with a Transformer. You like that? So it will work on 50 or 60 cycles, but it is a 120 machine, but all you need is the
+
+[34:09] transformer and we'll figure out which one you need to buy, so I don't want to hear. It's not like the sears all, where it's a free international nightmare. It's going to be much easier to work with. Is there anything else I should mention about that, Stas? No, that would be, did you say that it's only going to run at that price for a certain amount of time? Yeah, until we make the number we need to go. And then you'll never be able to get it at that discount price again. Never again. No, and also to revive something else on the on the Booker index. Oh, it's very, more of a cooking issue stitch. Nastasia started work again on the enemy of quality shirts. Yes. Yes, look for them at the end of the month. Now you have 1st of the month going through my head. United Song? Yeah, I saw, right, Paul? Sing it. I will not sing 1st in a month, then I cannot get it. Is it a Broadway? It is. No, it's no, it's the 1st of the month. Okay, let's get some questions. You want to take another call or? Yes, call her, call her. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, y'all. How you doing? Um, here's my question. I'm doing great. Thank you. How are you guys doing? All right. After Thanksgiving, I've got to do some huge format cooking, and I would prefer not to have to buy a gigantic
+
+[35:24] pop, and buy gigantic, I mean, like four or five feet across. Ooh. So I'm wondering if I was just just by, great, thick gauge sheet of steel from Metal Shop. Is there anything I have to do to it before I could lift? To go in contact with it for cooking, and the same question kind of goes to, like, rebar and stuff like that. Is there anything I could do to it? Well, it's possible, even. Why does the rebar need to touch the food? Well, I asked that partly because I don't really have a menu in place yet.
+
+[36:00] I was gonna kind of figure out what my cooking tools are gonna be 1st and then build a menu around that. So, really, it's like either or is one better, one easier to prep for food. Got it. Well, you can get used food grade barrels, right? And the problem is most of them are coated with, with paints, you can burn them off. I don't know if cheap source of like, you might be easier just to get like a giant, cheap, used pot somewhere. But the answer is, is that cold roll steel is fine. You have to rub it, scrub it, and then, um, you're
+
+[36:37] gonna have to probably season it, or it'll, or it'll, uh, rust out. You can season it with, uh, uh, if you get spray grease, like, like
+
+[36:45] Pam and a weed torch, then you can, um, you can
+
+[36:50] season, uh, anything you want. It just takes time to season the stuff out. Rebar, I haven't studied rebar in a long time. Rebar is often coated with stuff. Um, you know, to have it bond better with the concrete. So you're definitely not going to want to use the green rebar. But I don't know whether or not regular rebar. By the way, for those of you, rebar is the is the steel pieces that are meant to reinforce concrete and they have that weird kind of pattern on it. And rebar has this one advantage. It is so cheap. Rebar is so cheap, and you can weld to rebar, but I just don't know whether anything's in it.
+
+[37:31] Um, you know, that is going to cause you problem. Cold roll steel. Fine. So really quickly. So you think if I bought a food grade, like 50 gallon drum barrel that I could have somebody just cut that thing in half and use it like a pot? Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, where would I get one of those in New York City? I mean, I'd have to look, like, these are expensive, but people sell them stainless, but you can get them used.
+
+[38:01] Like, I don't know. I've never I haven't bought, like, I used to, I mean, back when I was younger. I used to just get ones and just burn them out, but
+
+[38:11] like that was, it's disgusting. Have you ever burnt out a 55 gallon drum before? It's disgusting. It's like really bad. And like the paint fumes were just going and going and
+
+[38:24] going. So we like, we were doing grills. We were doing the old 55 gallon drum grills, and so we just, uh, torch cut in half, and that was a paint, that was a paint nightmare to begin
+
+[38:34] with, just burning the paint off when it was torch cutting, because we were, we didn't have a plasma. We were using old school like oxyacetylene. No one had plasmas back then. And, uh, I mean, someone did. I didn't. And then we just put them up on cinder blocks and just filled them full of stuff and just burnt them for hours and
+
+[38:49] hours and hours. Nasty, nasty. And we were in our greats for it. We were just using like that expanded mesh stuff. Actually, stuff works okay. I have no regrets on that. But, um, like, that's the kind of place if you're going to do something like that, you put rebar underneath it to, like, support the great, and that's where you want to worry about, um, worry about that. But I don't, I'm pretty sure that those drums will still hold water once they're cut open.
+
+[39:18] You want to do it the long way? I mean, that's what I would do if I got one, just because it would give me a little bit more option. I don't know how the top seals work on. I mean, there's some that have removable tops on them and those things have elastrimer steel, so I would stay away from those, but the old, like the ones that are actually just crimp shut, those things should work. At the very least, if you're boiling, you could just put some silicone ceiling on the inside of that
+
+[39:45] thing and they'll stay, they'll stay good to go, especially if you don't need to use it forever.
+
+[39:48] You know what I mean? Um, and in fact, I want to say that I saw someone doing nixtimilization and cutting half 55 gallon drums. I think I saw someone doing like large scale nixtamal, underfired, horizontal, half cut 55 gallon drums. Gotcha. Yeah. And you know what? You know what the good thing about boiling in that shape is a lot like a wok? you get a reduced surface area as it goes down. So because you get reduced surface area as it goes down, it's easier to kind of control kind of what's going on.
+
+[40:21] So if you're flat all the way down, then, uh, you know, once you get low, you can go from like, I'm okay to, I'm hosed really quickly because it doesn't kind of taper down. And also for expansion, you have more expansion
+
+[40:36] space, if you're boiling in something that has sloped sides, because the higher up you go, the more volume you get per unit height.
+
+[40:47] And so it kinds of help on helps for self-boilover problems. And the insides of those things are relatively easy to clean out.
+
+[40:55] The, the, the, the line of gunk around the rims is a little can be a little bit tricky to clean out, but the actual slope part of it is relatively easy to clean
+
+[41:05] out. But you're going to want to weld probably something like angle or something on the cut edges for 2 reasons,
+
+[41:13] one, to provide stiffness to something that's no longer supported around itself, and
+
+[41:18] 2 so no one cuts themselves on the cut edges. Do you have a plasma cutter? Gotcha. So just really quickly, like I have no idea where to start. Where would I find one of those? I mean, I'm going to find it like a Jetro or like restaurant Depot or am I going to find it at a pickle shop? I've gone on, well, pickle shops tend to use, um, HDP or, uh, you know, um, I think they use those plastic ones, which aren't going to be good for you. Um, I once looked on Craigslist for this time. And like on Craigslist, people have this problem where they have like boatloads of these suckers like sitting around or
+
+[41:52] eBay, uh, or one of the, before I go to McMaster and pay full price, there's tons of people around who, and if food was shipped in it, you know it's food grade. You know what I mean? It's like, you don't want to buy one that someone was shipping hazardous waste in.
+
+[42:06] Yeah, you know. Yeah, but I would check, check Craigslist. I looked on there once because I thought the museum was going to need a bunch of these things. We didn't end up buying them, but, um, and did anyone in a chat room have any suggestions? I mean, New York is such a pain in the butt to do anything. And, I mean, I love it here, but it's a pain in the butt to do physically do or make anything. Yeah. Anyway, thank you very much. All right, good luck. Let us know whether you found anything. All right, have a good one. All right. Let me see. We should get to the ones we had before, right? Jeremy wrote in, hey, cooking issues, thanks for all your work, researching and teaching methods to make food. Delicious food. I took out the delicious because, you know, if you haven't had my food, I didn't know whether it's delicious or not. And by the way, speaking of delicious, next week I'm teaching a class at the International Colony Center on Cocktails, your time is running out to sign up running out. We're doing liquid intelligence. Should be fun. I managed to stop into your last night at Booker and Dax, and I have fabulous plate of country hams. Had to leave early, so I hear we miss the after party. Oh my god, now I have that song going through my head, reignition, best song ever. Best song ever. You even like that song, Stassi. Yeah, she said yes. She grudgingly said, yes, I do like that song. Looking forward to hearing about your next incarnation when it's ready. We didn't talk about this, did we last week? Yeah you did. I did? I already talked about measuring alcohol? Yeah. You did. Oh, well, so I don't need to get into it, Jeremy, I answered your question. Jeremy, if I didn't answer your question, then get back to me. If Nastasia is just being like, I can't stand listening to Dave anymore. So, you know, I don't, you know, wanna hear it. Uh, hey, uh, Dave and cooking issues team. This is Quinn from LA. I heard you briefly talking about triple extraction chicken stock in one of your back episodes that I'm intrigued enough to try to want to make my own using a coon recon pressure cooker. I've made pressure cooker chicken stock many times, but only extracting flavor in collagen from the bones once. With double or triple extraction, do you pressure cook with a chicken bone slash carcasses, then strain the stock, then add a fresh batch of chicken bones, maripois, and other
+
+[44:00] romatics at a fresh stock, then pressure cook again. If you could please elaborate more on the procedure. It'll be grazily appreciated if they can't seem to find recipes online. Thanks for your help, Quinn. Yes, that's how you do it. So here's what you do. You, you, well, if you're making, if you're browning it, which I almost always do. I don't really make white chicken stock very often. You make white chicken stock, Paul, almost always brown, always brown. Me. Thats me. Uh, so you don't, you, Yeah, you put it in, you smash as many bones in, and you just fill up to cover the bones. So you're trying to make the richest stock possible, so you don't want to add too much water. The classic mistake everyone makes with stock is they try to make too much of it and they add too much water and then they end up reducing it down, which they think not what you want to do. So you pack as much in there with some mirepoix, more onions, obviously, although it's going to increase the sweet. The problem with pressure cooked stocks is that onion flavor drops
+
+[44:49] off, and then to counteract that, you increase the onion amount, but what that really doing is increasing the sweetness. So you have to be careful on that. Don't triple mirepoix, right? You're mainly looking to meet it up. So what I would do is... Sounds like a scaling problem, Dave. Well, this is a repetition problem, right? Every time like what you're trying to, you're not trying to add that much more veg, right? So after the 1st extraction of veg and the pressure cooker, and then we're talking short stocks. So not like, like you're trying to do like very fresh tasting stocks, so you're not doing like a 45 manufaction, you're doing shorter extractions on the
+
+[45:21] bones. So maybe you're not pulling everything out, but everything tastes like really good and nice. So you're doing like 25 minutes. Like 20, 25 minutes, 2nd ring, let it come down, naturally. Otherwise, you don't want to emulsify the fats in, so don't do the fast release on it, right? And then you strain it out, fresh carcass, uh, maybe not mirepoix, hit it again, then taste it to see whether you
+
+[45:43] not you want to add any more fresh veg to it, and then you can, like, you know, tune the stuff out there. Maybe throw in a little pepper at the last one, bring it up, and then you'll have like a very, very extracted, uh, like
+
+[45:56] very, like rich uh, stock and you can do it all in like an hour and a half . And it tastes good. Is it efficient? No, but usually what happens is I end up not I'm not cooking at a restaurant. I don't need that much stock in my house. And I tend to accumulate a lot more chicken carcasses than I have need for stocks or soups.
+
+[46:15] And so a lot of times, I'll just do like a double or a triple, I I'll get a much more flavorful, I
+
+[46:22] think, in my opinion, flavorful, like fresh, bright stock. Uh, because I just don't need that much of it. Does that make sense? Yep. All right, let me see. Oh, no, I stopped Wrapbox. Do we have more time for more or are we hosting? No, no, Nastasia says we're done, but Dave says that we can go. All right. Greetings from the UK. First things first, thanks for your great show. Wife bought me a copy of Liquid Intelligence. And he enjoys it, which is good. But since we don't have time, I won't read the rest of it, but I'll answer the... Oh, by the way, I answered a tweeted question regarding dried peaches and hustino yields. So, you know, dried peaches, lower Justino yield quite a bit. So he tried pre-blending the dried peaches with 75% of their weight in water and the yield went up dramatically, so which is good. Good to know that worked. So here's the question. He's opening a new, he or she, he or she, he or she. Nick. He's opening a new bar. Uh, and he says, we're uh, we're doing a new bar. considering adopting a prediluted pre-chilled batching approach for the stir drinks on the menu. These are likely to be about 60% of the menu. The A is a speed up service and insure consistency. I like both of those things. The restaurant is located in a small rural town where the finding and keeping of skilled and capable staff is likely to be a permanent challenge.
+
+[47:33] That actually, therefore, seems to make a lot of sense, is this will also, uh, simple,
+
+[47:37] uh, make it more simple to uh, do staff training, et cetera. The restaurant bar would have a total of 50 seats and one to 2 bartenders. The issue we have is that suitable refrigeration kit is expensive, so like the Randell that we use at the bar. Conventional fridges don't appear to be cold enough, and conventional freezers are too cold. So my question is this. It would appear that I can use like a PID refrigerator, like a brew
+
+[47:58] controller, to adopt a set point of, let's say, -4 to -6 Celsius with a conventional freezer, whose highest temp would normally be about -15 Celsius. The unit has a default 3 minute setting for compressor delay protection. Do you have any experience with these type of plug and play controllers? And is there anything we need to be aware of? Do you think they'll have an impact on the compressor lifespan that makes the whole batching approach a nightmare waiting to happen?
+
+[48:20] So, It has a protection issue. So the problem with compressors in generals, you don't want to do what's called short cycling, where you turn them off and turn them right back on right away because the compressor has
+
+[48:30] to like push against, uh, it's just a nightmare. It's just like really shortens the lifespan, which is why they have a 3 minute cycle on it. Um, I think 3 minutes might be a little extreme for, for, for, uh, kick in. You could probably deal with a couple minutes more. I think if you're using a conventional chest freezer, the nice thing about a conventional chest freezer is when you open it, the cold air tends to stay in it.
+
+[48:53] And so I think that should work fine. And those conventional home freezers have the advantage that they're super cheap.
+
+[49:01] So, like, if one dies on you, you can just go buy another one and your PID stuff should be almost plug
+
+[49:07] and play to get to go in. So I think you shouldn't have a problem there. What do you think, Paul? Sounds correct. What is the Randall cost? I don't know. The problem with the Randell is just we never got it. What's the word? Uh, service properly, so the gasket went bad. What's nice about the Rendell is like, the ones that we had weren't designed to drop the FX freezers, they're very
+
+[49:27] accurate. They go up and down, but they're not designed to drop the temperature or something, they're maintained to, they're designed to kind of maintain it. They're, in fact, our big drawer igloo coolers. So you would open them and the temperature would stay very constant because the cold air would move in and out with the
+
+[49:41] drawer and it's very well insulated, so you get very minimal temperature drops, which is good.
+
+[49:46] So the more insulated your freezer is, which a lot of home chest freezers are very well insulated because they're meant
+
+[49:52] for like, you know, hunters and whatnot who don't want to have a lot of energy input into it, and so they're fairly well insulated. Um, so they should work. You know what I mean? I think it should work. But the problem with reach and chess is that it's hard to get a 1st in 1st out system because the stuff lower is hard to get to.
+
+[50:10] So you have a stock rotation issue, but whatever. can move right to left. Up, down, right left. No, it's hard to literally put stuff into one of those things and to have like 5 bottles
+
+[50:21] tall. You know what I mean? lower in a rack full of your bottles. Yeah, and then go rack by racks. Yeah. There's ways around everything. it takes a little work. An alternative or for possible use in conjunction to reduce the opening of the freezer. What are your thoughts on the insert inserted insert refrigerated bottle well. So it's basically a bottle well that's refrigerated. The one that you showed me doesn't really go that low enough. I am looking into a similar problem, but I'm going to definitely move to a glycol, a
+
+[50:47] glycol based refrigerant system that allows me to keep bottles exactly where I want them.
+
+[50:53] So, uh, the wave of the future in terms of this and something I'm working on, like I say, right now is refrigerated glycol.
+
+[51:01] Then you have to, like, obviously wipe the glycol off the outside. That's what those, if you go into a wine store and they have those little vortex chillers. That's all that stuff is, is refrigerator. I'm pretty sure that's all it is, refrigerator glycol. Not using salt, right? You ever looked into those things, Paul? I assumed it was water. Water? How's water? Well, you think they're actually going at that high of a temperature? For wine? I guess. I don't know. Well, I'm going to do glycol. You know, properly. Food great. I guess I could do salt, but salt's so corrosive. And then, yeah, I don't know. Anyway. All right. So then next week we will get to, we add some questions, or maybe we don't. We talked about melon pan last week, too. No. Melon Pan was the one I missed? On butter? Son of a gun. All right, next time, if I haven't talked about the melon pan from Portugal, give me a call back and we'll talk about it next week. Go vote. Cooking issues.
+
+[52:16] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food Radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[52:48] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Hey, hey, hey, I'm Jimmy Carboni from Beer Sessions Radio. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network Broadcasting Live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageraidernetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. She's coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from the Bruce P3 in Bushwick. every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, one o'clock, you know, Tuesdays. You know how it works. Listen, very special day here in the studio, join with Nastasia. the Hammer Lopez as usual. We got Dave in the booth. Yeah, I like that. Cut your cut your applause off like, there's a boom. claws gone. We have. Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go, Stas, here plus. We have formerly from Popular Science. Now, Paul, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you call yourself now? Paul Adams. Yeah, just plain Paul Adams? That'll do. Master of drones, master of you, but you, like, how much of your mental life is devoted to each component of things you're
+
+[1:17] interested in. You're interested in 100% of everything. Yes. So it's like 100% drones, 100% cocktails. science. High functioning. Scio, radio, 100%. All of it. All of it. I like that. It's a good technique. So, it's a very special day. Call in your questions, a two, a 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Should we just start with the... Okay, okay, folks. The, uh, by the way, happy Thanksgiving. This is the Thanksgiving episode of the cooking issues. So if you have any Thanksgiving questions, please call them in. We were going to have today Mark Ladner from Del Posto. I talk about his new book, but I think we're going to do that right after the break, right? Yep. So that, you know, we're gonna push. Although, It would have been nice because then people could on Black Friday go out and purchase his book. know. Maybe purchase, purchase the book, and then we'll come and we'll talk about it. He'll come in next week. Is he already scheduled? All right. So, uh, for those of you that are listeners to the show, uh, we at Booker and Dax have been working for, it seems like forever. Yeah. on Centrifuge, building a centrifuge specifically for the kitchen and bar. And that's actually why Paul is here. Paul is helping us out with what's about to happen. We are at the point in production where we are actually getting the tooling made for the actual item. And so we are going to put it on pre-sale on Black Friday. So yay, pre-sale. So, um, Nastasia, do you know, uh, like when we're going to put the video, are we going to put the video up before the
+
+[2:58] presale? So that people can watch that video or no? You know, we haven't decided yet? This is the 1st you've asked me. Yes, I know. This is why they call it live radio. What do you want to do? Well, maybe people on the chat room can weigh in. We have a we have a. Obviously they'd want to see the video. Yeah, the real problem the real problem with the video is I know, here's the reason I don't want to do it, right? There's a 1st of all, here's one thing. Our videographer had a family emergency. So, you know, we had to shoot at ourselves, and actually, I'm late today for a decent reason. I was actually editing the thing. So listen, I am not a video editor. So if you're like, blah, blah, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Would you rather bias interviews made by a professional video or better professional center views? That's a good point, Paul. It seems like you're trying to get an award for this video. I'm not trying to get an award status. Like, I don't want to hear the hate from people of why do you do this? Why'd you do that? Why is it? I got it from my wife. Yeah, for my wife. Even for my own wife. 's like, why'd you do this? I was like, because I didn't have the other shot to put in. But you didn't go to school for video editing. I had to go to school for fine arts, but not for video editing. That's true. Anyway, point being, I don't want to hear if you have any complaints about the way the video was shot. I simply don't want to hear them, but keep them for yourself. Bias entrifuge. shoot your own promotional video. Yeah, yeah. Right. Or, you know what? You should have a contest. a promotional video. Oh, it's a good one. a good one. You know what, though? I take it all back. As long as you buy the centrifuge, say whatever you like. As long as you buy it. Uh, yeah. So anyway, so the point is, we made the video with the
+
+[4:33] proto, the name of the centrifuge is... The spins all. Spins off. Spins off. The culinary centrifuge. And I already got someone on Twitter when I hashtagged it. Someone asking me whether it only spins some things. No, spins everything. Won't necessarily clarify everything. Won't clarify a rock, but you can spin a rock as long as you have enough liquid in it to balance out. So I think I've talked about it before, but it's going to go on pre-sale on modernistpantry.com slash
+
+[5:01] spinzall. The link is up now, but it's just a splash page. It's gonna go... not the actual link. What's not the actual link? What you just said. What is it? It's blog.modernistpantry.com slash
+
+[5:15] Finzol. right now. But it's going to be, it's going to be monitorspantry.com. I was gonna say, because the video the video also says that. So anyway, back to what I was saying. The reason I don't necessarily want to put up the video live is because it says, order, pre-order your spins all now. Only it's not now. It's in 3 days. Right. And we're gonna hear about it. If I put it up, we'll hear about it. Anyway, should I even talk about it? Should I talk about it or should I just say watch the video? Talk about it. Talk about it. Okay. What is the spins all, Dave? How does it work? Well, Paul, that's an excellent question. Uh, so, uh, basically in a nutshell, it says. I give you the pitch. So the centrifuge is, if you ask anyone, if you ask, and we didn't have time to go out and get their, what's it called,
+
+[5:59] it's their, you know, testimonials, but we'll get them at some later point. So, Chris Young, back when he was, I think he wrote that section of modernist cuisine,
+
+[6:09] but, you know, all the modernist cuisine crew. I believe this. I think Wiley believes it. I think Tony Cagliaro believes it. I think, you know, a lot of people believe that the one piece of modern gear that is kind of beyond a lot of people from a price standpoint, it isn't the
+
+[6:26] rotovap, because that one's not as necessary to your day-to-day work in a
+
+[6:30] kitchen. It's the centrifuge. Now, especially for bar work. Centrifuge, you need it. You know what I mean? you don't need it. But if you're gonna do the kind of stuff that I like to do, you need it. If you're going to make your own Orjas, it's extremely useful. If you're going to, um, you know, do carbonation, you need to clarify things. If you want to do hustinos. just a wide variety of things. For cooks, it makes like fantastic herb oil, you got the no churned butter. There's just a bunch of like good techniques that it's really, really good for, but it's the one piece of equipment that's really kind of been beyond
+
+[7:01] most people's capabilities, both home and pro. So for professionals, the problem is that the centrifuge is extremely large. So it's, you know, it's the size of, uh, it's basically like takes up the same room that an oven would take up, uh, in a kitchen, but you also need to be able to get to it,
+
+[7:20] right? It also needs balancing because they have big buckets, super heavy. It costs like 8 to $10,000, but those are nice because they do like, they do like 3 liters at a time, really, like more like 2 because you don't fill the buckets up all the way, but like, they'll call like 3
+
+[7:33] liter centrifuches. But anyway, so you're looking at 8 to $10,000, $10,000 if you need the refrigerator, and most of you do, because those centrifuges tend to heat products up quite a bit. Um, on the home side, I mean, that's just ridiculous. Who's got a house? I mean, I guess if you live way out in the burbs and your kitchen's in your garage, you could have the space to have a centrifuge there, but you just don't have the space. And also, it's very hard to justify at home spending 8 to $10,000. But the alternative for a centrifuge to indo all these things has basically been the $200 Uh, we'll call them the champion or, you know, Paul, you have. 's yours called? Clina seal. Clina seal, which is designed for the veterinarian blood market, I believe. Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Veterinary blood market? Huh. Hmm. So the, uh, but Clinton Seal is a terrible name. It sounds like seal the musician. No? Or like seal the animal. Like, why would you, oh, seal because it's for blood, so it's sealed, so it doesn't spray, like, dog blood in your eyes? It sounds like some form of birth control. Ooh, wow, that's rough. It's going to a weird place, Dave. No, actually, it's named for a sealed musician who invented it. Oh, okay. Well, then I like it a lot. I want to buy one, even though I have no use for it. But these small units, the problem is they use these tiny vials that are impossible to clean out. You're really only making, like, uh, all said and done, like, uh, you know, 80 milliliters at a time or 100 milliliters at a time. It's pathetic. It's horrible. So anyway, so the idea is, is how do you get something that can make a reasonable quantity in a small package and you move to what's called an open bucket.
+
+[9:00] So we built a 500 milliliter rotor, the rotor holds 500 milliliters at a time, but a real 500 milliliters, not like, oh, the capacity is 500 milliliters, but it really holds 300,
+
+[9:11] it holds 500 milliliters of product. Um, and it spins that much and it's huge and open, so it's really easy to get the stuff out of. It's got fins. It balances kind of like a dishwasher. So the way a dishwasher, sorry, washing machine balances, is it uses a liquid ring balance. So, as luck would have it, or as I say, as physics would have it, when something spins, if there's a liquid in it, that liquid will tend to move such that it counteracts imbalance that's inside the rotor, it tends to self-balance.
+
+[9:38] The trick with it is. And I can say every, I mean, this is patents on this or go back decades and decades and decades and decades because washing machines have been a problem for a long time,
+
+[9:46] and spinning ring balance has been around since forever. But one of the problems is, so you need to keep the liquid from sloshing so that it can actually balance properly. One way to do it is to increase the viscosity of the liquid. I can't do that because I don't know what you're going to spend. So we have fins inside the bucket that keep the entire ring of stuff rotating as a tourist, but then we also have to allow movement in between. So part of the art is figuring out the shape of the fins on the inside to get it to work right, but also nice
+
+[10:14] thing you take the fins out and you have access to the whole inside of the bucket. The other trick is is that I want you to be able to do more than 500 milliliters at a time. So we have what's called a tube feeder that fits into the rotor that allows you to add product into the
+
+[10:28] centerfuge as it's spinning, and then it pours out. Um, And so that's basically, that's how it works. Now there's some some facts about it that are kind of cool. For those of you that haven't used a lot of centrifuges before. Uh, spinning buckets is what we all use because you need the capacity, but fixed angle rotor, which is the kind of the crappy
+
+[10:47] Clinocille model. actually clarify a lot faster and a lot better, uh, at a given G-force than the uh, than the swinging bucket ones do. And ours acts like a fixed angle rotor, but
+
+[11:00] is like is like a big bucket. So the funny thing is, is that we can actually clarify things most of the time faster than the big centrifuges can,
+
+[11:11] even though we're actually running at half the G-forces, and like half the noise level and like infinitely more safety than the other one
+
+[11:19] is. And the whole thing fits into something slightly larger than a food processor. It's so easy to lift. In fact, that I have it in my backpack. Oh, you'll like this, Nastasi. You enjoy this. This is Nastasia's favorite kind of story. So right after this, we're going to food and wine, right? Anyway, so I'm running up the subway stairs to get here. Uh, and you know how you, sometimes you just don't lift your foot high enough and you kick the stair? Yeah. So I don't lift my foot high enough. I kick the stair and I start going down. Now, I have the centrifuge, the spins all on my back. And so I say, okay, as I'm going down, I'm like, I could try to catch myself. But if I try to catch myself, there's a possibility that I will spin and smack my backpack
+
+[12:08] into this, like, you know, when you catch yourself, if you only catch yourself a little bit, you continue to rotate, you'll spin over and you'll smack in on the other side. So I just went straight down on my knees, right on the stairs. Boom. Like, straight like, boom. I was like, you know what I mean? And then got up and went, but the centerfuge is fine. Centrifuge doesn't care. Well done, Dave. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Anyway, oh, some more interesting facts about the spins all, uh, is that it will run, it runs on either, now, for those of you that don't know, the United States power supplies that we use here are 120
+
+[12:44] volt, Well, whatever. They like 105 to 125, depending on where you are. But the key thing here is that they are 60 cycles per second, 60 cycles. That's the frequency of the power mains. Now, in Europe, right, all of
+
+[12:59] Europe actually runs at 50 cycles per second, 220 to 240 or something, somewhere in there. Now, uh, it's not really the voltage, the voltage is easy. You just put a transformer on it and you can change the voltage. The real problem with equipment is changing the number of the frequency of the power because it changes the speed at which motors operate. The good news in the spins all is that it doesn't care what frequency you put
+
+[13:25] in. So you will need a transformer to use it in Europe or actually, you won't need a, It's interestingly, you won't need a transformer in Japan, Japan's the weird one. It runs at 120 volts 50 cycles, which is crazy. It's the only place in the world, I think, that it uses R voltage, but like a European standard for the frequency. It's crazy. Fake. someone will correct me on this. But anyway. So, um, yeah, so it'll run anywhere in the world with a transformer and an adapter. And the reason is that in order, the centrifuge, most motors, most AC motors, alternating current motors, are locked to some fixed
+
+[14:03] number, or not locked, but they run based on that their RPM is based on some multiple of the line
+
+[14:09] frequency. So when you're running a motor, an AC motor at 60
+
+[14:14] hertz, uh, with 60 hertz power, and you take it to um, a country that runs on 50 hertz power, you're running it at 56th speed, slower by, you know, by a good chunk. And that would not be good for the centrifuge, running it at a slower speed. But luckily, in order for the spins all to work properly, part of the patent, it's patent pending. Did I mention patent pending? Did I mention that? Patent pending, is that the rotor speed moves up and down slightly. So once it reaches its full speed, which, by the way, is about 4100 RPM, it will decelerate and accelerate it, kind of
+
+[14:46] sign, soil, oscillate up and down. And the reason it does that is to create a little bit of angular acceleration of the ring torus on the inside of the spinning
+
+[14:55] thing, and it allows the puck, the solids to form more evenly around the ring. And it actually helps to sediment the stuff faster, uh, because it kind of, from experience. I mean, I haven't done this is just anecdotally, but it kind of helps the particles dig in. It gives me a faster clarification. So, yeah, so it moves up and down. But to do that, the spins all actually creates the frequency that the motor runs at. And consequently it doesn't care what frequency you put into it. So you can run it anywhere. Um, what else am I missing, Paul? Anything else? Oh, it will be NSF certified, UL certified, and CE certified. We're going for all the certifications. Now, you might ask, how much would I have to pay for such a thing? Well, the retail price. is what's the retail price, Nastasia? $999. Do we add the $99 or no? Sure. $9.99? Wait, 999, 99? Yes. But for this pre-sale only. We are going to sell it for? 699. Yes. Yeah, we're not even going to charge the extra ¢99, just
+
+[15:55] $6.99. Shipping will be included in the United States, but foreign people will have to pay
+
+[16:02] for their own shipping. Now, here's the thing. We need to pay for the tooling, and we need to pay for the building them. And Nastasia and I don't just don't have the money.
+
+[16:13] I would pull the money out of my pocket if I could, but I just don't have the money. So we're going to pre-sell them at that price, but if people don't buy
+
+[16:22] them. If we can't get the pre-sales to do it, we just won't make it.
+
+[16:28] So the way the pre-sale is going to work is you're going to, uh, you're going to basically pledge to buy one. It's not actually a Kickstarter, but it's going to run similarly to a Kickstarter, but on the modernist pantry website, you're going to pledge to buy
+
+[16:40] one and then only after we reach our target number. Do we do we officially set the target number yet, Nastasia? I think it's the thousand, right? 1000 units? So $700,000 basically, $699,000. So once we reach that number, then we charge your cards and we go into full production. When do they get them? They will they will ship in June or July? of next year. Now, this is not, by the way, for those of you that were part of the Sears all thing, here's how the Sears all worked. The Sears all, it was Nastasia and Piper, back in Piper worked with us, and I, in the basement of the Booker
+
+[17:19] index lab, we literally made the prototypes for the Sears all, which is the little torch attachment that we
+
+[17:26] sell, out of cocktail shakers. I went to the Bowery restaurant district here in New York City. I bought the smallest 3 piece cocktail shaker that I could find. I took a plasma cutter, cut it into the sears all shape. That's literally how the sears all shape was developed. It was built around the smallest available three-piece cocktail shaker. Then we shipped, we did the Kickstarter, Piper and I in the basement made, I think, 20, right? We made like 20 cocktail shaker searsals in the basement, you know, on Eldridge Street here,
+
+[18:01] mailed them out to chefs, and we did the video with those prodos.
+
+[18:05] That's how we did our Kickstarter thing. And we hadn't yet found a manufacturer or any of that stuff, which is one of the reasons why it took a long time. I think if you've never made something, like produce something, making a single prototype is blindingly easy compared to actually getting something manufactured.
+
+[18:22] It's very, there are more difficulties than you would probably think, right? Nostasi, would you say it's fair? This is not what's happening with the centrifuge, with the centrifuge. We not only have the manufacturer. We have the subcontractors. We've already gone through, like, 5 rounds of prodos, and we're actually in the place where we're going to make the
+
+[18:42] tooling. So I feel a lot more confident with my dates and numbers than I did when we launched
+
+[18:51] the series all. You say that's fair? Yes. Yeah. So what am I missing? Anything? The prototype looks great. It runs great. It's tiny, it's very quiet. It's like a little food processor. extremely impressive to see and operate. Well, thank you. So listen, swear to, this is how this is going to work. From Dave's mouth to what is it? Oh, I can't that's not safe for work, Mustasia. No, I thought it's, oh, your version. Yeah, yeah. It's supposed to be your lip to God's ears. But that's not my, that's not my version. Yeah, it's not my version. My version is not part of the family show ethos that we try to maintain
+
+[19:29] here at cooking issues. But anyway, so that's the extent of the pitch, but I will just say this, that if you do not, if it is not something that you guys are interested in, then we will
+
+[19:45] know, and we won't build it. And to be honest, Nastasi and I will fold up the equipment company. I'll just go do a separate bar and just go rip up. do you mean? Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I going to. Well, no, I have a family. I can't be the Leatherman, if you didn't tune into this show where you talked about the Leatherman, was a guy in the 1800s who never spoke to anyone and just wore clothing that he made himself out of discarded
+
+[20:08] bootleather, and like a tin pan that he carried around with him and walked a continuous circuit of 340 or 50 miles once every 34 days, 10 miles a day and never slept inside, you know, a day in his adult life and just did that until he literally dropped dead and was found in one of his
+
+[20:27] caves dead from the mouth cancer that he had the past year, the last year and a half of his life. The leather man. If you look him up on the internet, it is Leatherman Perenz Vagabond. You know, vagabond used to be such a horrible vagabond now sounds like vaguely romantic, right? Because we use we use bum when we mean vagabond, but like back in the day, vagabond was or, you know, was bad, very bad. You didn't want to be a vagabond. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so let's go to a commercial and come back with actual cooking issues questions.
+
+[21:11] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, crème brûlée, vibrant
+
+[21:35] purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[21:47] get you cooking faster and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[21:51] Browse chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[22:06] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. That's a new version of that thing. I was in my head, I was thinking... I was thinking, no, but you never had the chill to the next episode section in there. Yeah, that's always been in there. We just never take the midway break. And... So, uh, for the, like, 1st time, my wife is actually listening to what I was saying on the thing and
+
+[22:36] she's like, hey, thanks for making me look like the bad guy, which, you know, again, for, like, throwing her onto the bus. I was like, you know what? That's fair, fair point. Here's the thing, right? One of my all-time favorite things about my wife is that she
+
+[22:51] is, like, straight up honest, no sugar coating, like tells it as she sees it. Like, this is, like, honestly, my one of my favorite things. Like, unlike, and so, like, when something is not like the way that she wants, like, she thinks it's bad, she's
+
+[23:04] gonna say so, which is why she was such a fantastic editor from my book. And, I mean, without my wife, my book, people think I'm like saying this to be, no, without my wife editing the book, the book would not have
+
+[23:15] been, like, anything would have been horrible. And, uh, so, you know, she is like an amazing editor, but on the same side, when you just come from an editing session with someone who's actually a good editor, it is
+
+[23:26] painful, and it is, there is friction involved in the editing process because they take something you've worked on and they shred it into tiny pieces, but only to make it better, but it just, you know, so anyway, so I should not, I should not have tried
+
+[23:39] it. I should not have accidentally thrown her under the bus. Nastasia, on the other hand, he's like, I don't care. I don't care what it looks like or what it reads like, just get it out there, right? Well, we have a different perspective on things, where I think getting it done is better than
+
+[23:54] perfect, and you think perfection is... not perfection. It's like, anyway, whatever. Whatever. Okay, so let's get to some questions. Oh, before I get to, I've got some questions first. Uh, this one is in, you have the answer from Del Posto, right? I have some comments beforehand. By the way, do you like the word? and how do you pronounce it, do you? I always say, like, Induja. What do you say? Paul, you're an Induja man, aren't you? sounds good. Duja, Duja. It sounds not pleasant. Like, is like, right? Yeah. Right. What would you rather have? Would you rather have some delicious salumi or Induja? Would you rather have Momo or Induja? Would you rather have supersata, or as we call a supersada, or would you rather have Hinduja? Would you rather have Spek or Induja? Prosciutto or Induja? Induja sounds like what it is, though. Like, okay, so what it is is a super, it's like a very spicy, you know, very red, very stain
+
+[24:57] your clothes, very fat, heavy, pasty, cured meat product. Yes. Yes. The answer is underneath there. Yeah, but aren't you gonna read it? so that, like, not I have to read both, like a chunk? You need a, you know, yes. We need a what? We got to wrap up in five. Oh no. Yeah, we have another. We got a 510. Hi Dave. The Hammer and Heritage radio peeps. I decided to try the induced recipe from Mark Ladner's excellent Del Posto cookbook and intend to offer it to my guests pre-Thanksgiving dinner.
+
+[25:31] By the way, Nastasia and my editor, Maria Guarnashelli, hate pre-meat and cheese at a large meal. Paul, what are your thoughts on pre-meat and cheese? It will fill you up. So what? It's tasty. See, they hate it because in a classic restaurant, the cheese course comes, of course, at the end. My feeling is at home, home is less formal than at a formal restaurant. That's why it's home and not a formal restaurant, that having cheese.
+
+[25:57] Because it's more like cheese, the cold antipasti kind of idea, but it's
+
+[26:00] with doesn't have to be Italian, right? So you have cheeses, meats, bread, wine while you're waiting for the thing to come out. And then at the end of the meal, that's when you bring out the port and the Stilton. So you bring out cheese again at the end, but I think you can
+
+[26:13] bookend a meal with cheese. It's not problematic. But Nastasia doesn't believe it. Not Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, in my family, we always assume, like when people... Because I assume we were going to eat at three. Okay, well, sorry for your assumption that was incorrect. But the point is, is that the, like, when you have the, like, no, you say this in every meal. No, I always have cheese at the beginning of... And Maria hates it, and you agreed you nodded your head up and down that you thought that she was right. Maybe just about Thanksgiving. Now, we weren't talking about Thanksgiving. We were talking about meals in general. So basically... Oh, so so you, I did not know that you were the kind of person that says stuff you don't believe just to make people happy.
+
+[26:50] That wasn't the kind of person. I owe the I owe her another book. Okay. I had my butcher grind, the shoulder for the, well, back to the question, folks. I had my butcher grind the shoulder on Saturday and I prepared it within a few hours. The grind was somewhat coarse and I used plastic wrap to form it into a log. Now, if you thought Anduja was a bad word, and Dooja log sounds like even worse. Um, I like it though, but I can't have a lot. So fatty. How much can you eat? Not much. What about you, Paul? Like one... Yeah. I mean, if there's a lot of bread. like, you know what I don't like? like when they used to serve you like a boatload of foie gras with no starch. Like, the thing is, if I'm gonna have something really fatty, like lardo, or like, I just want some starch to cut the fat. You know what I mean? Yep. Okay. Um, the grind with some of course, and I use plastic wrap to form it into a log. The cook, no one can form plastic wrap logs like my man nils. My man knows Norin is the plastic wrap log king. I learned from him and I got pretty good, but Nils Noran can take any. The man can take like a tractor trailer semi and form it into a perfect cylinder using only purity brand plastic wrap.
+
+[27:58] He's a plastic wrap genius. Yeah. Um, The cookbook says a 3 day cure is sufficient. But since I've never had to rely solely on prig powder number 2 before, I was hoping for some assurance that this sausage will be safe to eat by the holiday.
+
+[28:12] Thanks a bunch and keep up the good work. Nick from Cleveland. Now, because it's a Thanksgiving question, Nastasia sent into Del Posto to get an answer for
+
+[28:22] you, and then Mark can talk about it next week when he comes in on the radio as well, but it'll be too late because your family will already have been poisoned by
+
+[28:28] then. Just kidding, we're not going to poison your family. But the a couple comments I'll make straight off the bat. Um, prake powder or instacure number 2 is a curing salt. For those of you that don't do any curing. It's a mixture of salt. And, uh, Powder number 2 is a mixture of sodium nitrite and sodium
+
+[28:48] nitrate, trite and trait. Now, if you don't know, this is all you need to know. Nitrite, ITE is the fast acting version of night trait. So what these things, that's what causes the cure color in meats. It's what it has a specific cured taste. It also, specifically, those nitrites, nitrates, specifically inhibit botulism from growing.
+
+[29:13] So in sausages, which, by the way, botulism, I think, comes from the Latin for, like, sausage, yeah, um,
+
+[29:19] like it's classic because you're taking meat that's been exposed and folding it into an
+
+[29:23] oxygen poor environment, and that's why you can get botulism from it if it's not either
+
+[29:27] cooked or cured properly. So the the nitrites uh, help to uh, prevent
+
+[29:33] or or prevent botular stop obstacleism from growing. Now, nitrates are really just the long acting version of nitrites. So since this is a 3 day cure, I don't see any reason why you would include nitrate in it at all.
+
+[29:47] I don't understand why they're using prey powder number 2 and instead of prey powder number one. Typically, you only use number 2 on long cured products, and by that, I mean things like hams, where you need, because what happens is as this stuff soaks into your meat,
+
+[30:02] over time, nitrate is converted to nitrite and then converted on further to form the products that actually cure the meat.
+
+[30:10] So if you don't require that kind of time lapse or time release rather action on the nitrates, you don't want to use them. So I don't know why he's using number 2 powder. We can ask him next week. I would use number one. That said, there's also a couple of things going on here. The nitrites will immediately prevent botulism from
+
+[30:30] growing, and since you took meat and it was exposed to oxygen, botulism will not be growing in the meat from the
+
+[30:36] get go. So you will be safe on a botulism count. This is just my opinion now. I going to read the answer from Del Posto. The only issue you have is that if there are other bacteria in the meat, for instance, E. coli, or if you're one of these people that believe
+
+[30:49] trichonosis is still a problem in the US pork source, which it isn't really, but if you believe that, or if you're using wild caught meat, and it hadn't been previously frozen for the prescribed number of days to kill
+
+[31:00] trichonella, that's also a possibility, but if there is a bacteria in it, for instance, E. coli is one of the bacteria of interest in
+
+[31:08] muscle, you know, mammal meats. It will take a certain amount of time for that E. coli to be destroyed by the action of salt, dehydration, and the acidification that happens as meat is curing, because bacteria grow in the meat, lactic acid bacteria grow in the meat, drop the pH, i.e. increase the acidity, and it's the combination of loss of water, increase in salt, and increase in acidity, decrease in
+
+[31:37] pH that really prevent a killed bacteria that are there that are present bad bacteria, and prevent new ones from growing. That said, Anduda is such a high fat product that I don't know what the water activity is from the get
+
+[31:51] go because it's such a high fat product to begin with. It might start with an extremely low water activity. I don't know. Do you know Paul? have no idea. No, that makes sense, though. Yes. So, and then I wasn't I didn't have time to look up like how long it takes for things like E. coli to die in certain environments, but these are known
+
+[32:09] curves. But here's the answer, here's the answer from Del Posto. Whenever you are consuming raw, dried, or cured meat, there's always a risk of potential foodborne illness, however, we take the following precautions to do our best to minimize and prevent them.
+
+[32:22] Do you like it? It's like so classic, like classic, like, menu talk, you might die. But, uh, first, always start with whole roast of meat. The potential for foodborne illness in meats takes place in large meat processing plants where 10s of 1000s of pounds of meat are being ground together at a time.
+
+[32:38] There is much less risk for consuming ground meat if it is a whole loin to start that you purchase from a reputable butcher and grind yourself. Secondly, when grinding the meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized. Oh my god, whenever anyone says clean and sterilized, what do you think of right away? Willy Wonka. The ceiling had to be, wait, no, wash, right? Washed and sterilized, so you get nothing. Remember this? No. Like, you stole fizzy lifting drink. You don't remember this? Oh my god, you guys aren't Willy Wonkaheads? Dave, Willy Wonkahead? It's been a minute. I forget. Oh, man. Hey, I can't believe all you like... You have kids. Do you watch that like every week? I used to watch it before I had kids every week, but then after I had kids, They got sick of it after a while. Thank God they never got turned onto the new one. Anyway. Second when grinding meat, be sure that all parts of your grinder are clean and sterilized to prevent any
+
+[33:28] cross-contamination, or you get nothing. Uh, like, he was awesome, right? I mean, Gene Wilder? Awesome. Finally, the nitrate and nitrite found in curing salts help to inhibit the growth of bacteria such as botulism that can cause foodborne illness. Yes, the growth of, but it won't necessarily kill stuff that's already there fast enough. That's the question. Eating uncooked meat always comes with a risk. However, by taking these precautions, we limit the chance of foodborne illness substantially, the curing of Induja for this particular recipe is for the flavor development more so than the loss of water that
+
+[33:58] is resulting drying. It is similar to eating a seasoned steak tartare. Hope this answers your question. Happy Thanksgiving. Matt. Okay, so in the in the few seconds that Nastasia is going to give me left before we need to go. I just want to bring up a question. Now, we weren't, this is not a political show, right? And we weren't here last week, which was the week after the election. I'm not going to talk politics. But I'll say pretty much, no matter what side of, you know, you were voting for in the election here, it seems like the country pretty much gave a kind
+
+[34:33] of who gives a crap about, um, kind of sexual assault. That's kind of what happened. It's one of the things that happened. It's like we were like, all of these allegations flying around and it was kind of like a, you know, the country was like, meh, it's not important. Like, it's like, that's the impression I got. I think that's the impression what a lot of people got, which I think is horrifying. And this is regardless of what side you're voting for. And in the, in the wake of that, there was a website, and this is, this is going out, not to the, necessarily the people who listen, who aren't pros, but people who are in the industry, a website popped up very soon after the election called the reality of sexual assault in the
+
+[35:09] cocktailcommunity.com. And when I read it, it was a, uh, it was a blog where a number of women had come forward and explained uh, what it was like to be sexually assaulted by a particular person in the cocktail community, I'm not going to bring up
+
+[35:24] any anyone's name, but a particular person in the cocktail community, uh, and when I was reading it, I was horrified by it, but also I got the distinct impression
+
+[35:34] that, uh, this is actually a much bigger problem than I had
+
+[35:39] realized, that like kind of like not just there's a there's a kind of gross, uh, unnecessary, I think, um,
+
+[35:47] non-inclusive broness about the food industry in general. Yeah. And I think like, you know, I think everyone thinks that that broness is kind of harmless, but it isn't
+
+[35:59] really because it is kind of, it is exclusionary. Like, you don't talk like you talk to your bros when you're around people in, you know, in not normal environments when you want to kind of be nice or human to me, so I think you don't.
+
+[36:11] You know what I mean? So like taking it into a work environment such that like a huge section of the people who are working with you feel naturally excluded is not, I think, a harmless, a harmless thing. Correct. Not, yeah. Anyway, so like, all of that stuff, I think, you know, but at a bare minimum, you would think that someone could go to work and not be, I'm not talking about comments, like, which are also bad, but like straight up sexual
+
+[36:35] assault. I was horrified. And I think one of the problems in the industry. And when we reopen. I know that I'm going to change how our, you know, our training is to be specific. I think we all need to be, when Nastasi, when we had the training at Momafuku for the, like the, everyone's kind of making light of the, of the, uh, harassment training because the way they do it is so goofy and
+
+[37:03] overly, uh, corporate, right? So they sit around and we all do these training things. Is this is this harassment? Is this not harassment? And it's all kind of goofy things. Here's the truth. The truth is, is that I wouldn't want to work in an environment where I
+
+[37:18] can't, I use salty language in the real life. Nastasia uses salty language in the real life. Um, cooks and bartenders can be um, raunchy and salty and like, and and, you know, use bad language and say crazy things. And I think that's all okay. It's everything has to come from a position of respect, right? And a lot of times, it doesn't. There's a difference between saying that someone has to be politically correct and
+
+[37:49] saying, no, what you really want to do is respect your coworkers. Like, that's the issue. And I think the real thing, when it comes to assault, real assault. And sorry to go on about this, but I think it's important, not talked about enough, is
+
+[38:01] that honestly, we know what it is. Like, having goofy training where you, like, oh, wow, that was assault. you know what I mean? No, it's like what we need to train on is letting everybody know that it is completely
+
+[38:14] unacceptable, that like the fact that you're a cook and you're, it's late and you've been out drinking with your coworkers or you're a bartender and you've been
+
+[38:22] drinking. Oh, he was drunk. No, he wasn't drunk. He's he's doing something criminal. He is doing something evil and wrong. If you are someone who tries to use this an excuse, stop now. If you see someone doing it, don't make excuses for them. I think part of the issue here is that there's a whole group of women out
+
+[38:40] there who think that they need to remain silent because everyone else thinks it's okay. I think the main thing that we need to do, everyone needs to come out and say, this kind of crap is unacceptable. This kind of crap will not be accepted, cannot be accepted and cannot be tolerated. So hopefully this is something, I don't know, we could talk about more. Do you think it's an issue we should talk about more or should be talked about more in the community? Respecting coworkers, yes. Respecting coworkers and, you know, don't, like, let everybody know not to, you know, that they shouldn't be silent, that it's not okay.
+
+[39:14] It's not, you know, by the way, if you want to remain, it's up to the, anyone who's had something happen to them, you know, it's up to them what they want to do,
+
+[39:23] right? But for the rest of us, don't allow this stuff to take place, don't make excuses for
+
+[39:30] anyone, cooking issues. Right.
+
+[39:39] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[40:15] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Thank you for listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're kicking off our end of year fundraising drive with a special discount offer from our partner, Heritage Foods USA, an online farm-to-table butcher shop, specializing in heritage
+
+[0:12] breed antibiotic free meats. Donate to Heritage Radio Network before Sunday, December 4th at HeritageRadioNetwork.org slash donate, and we'll send you an exclusive discount code for 10% off all
+
+[0:24] Heritage Foods products. Help ensure another year of great food radio, get 10% off delicious and sustainably produced
+
+[0:32] meat, and support small family farms, all in one shot. How's that for a holiday miracle? Head to heritageradionetwork.org slash donate by Sunday, December 4th to make your contribution. This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. This is Mike Edison, host of Art Sensors of Seizures. You're listening to the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwood, Brooklyn. If you like this program, please visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[1:11] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[1:22] Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12, roughly 1245, one o'clock, little late is normal, you know. You know how we do. Join as usual in the studio with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. We got Dave in the booth. What up? And today, special guest from Del Posto, the only Italian Restaurant Rated 4 Stars by the New York Times, Chef Mark
+
+[1:46] Ledner to talk about his new book, the Del Poster Cookbook, along with the co-author, Michael. Michael, what's your last name? Wilson. Wilson. No relation to, like, the musical Wilsons now. Unfortunately. So you don't have that kind of familial mess up to like, because that would be a good story. If you had like, you know, weird Wilson stories. I'm sure there's tons of weird Wilson stories because there's a lot of us, but I don't have any good ones. Not related to the tennis ball people. Nope. Any like any weird Wilsons in your back? Probably, but I don't know any of the stories. sort of boring, sorry. All right. You know what I found out my last name means yesterday? Strangely. Eagle power. Like Arnold is like some German version of eagle power. Anyway, call me your questions for Mark Ladner, too. 718-497-2128. 7184972128. How you doing, Mark? I'm doing great, Dave. Thanks for having us, and thank you, the hammer for inviting us out here on the show to talk about our book. We're excited to be here. excited to see you as always. Yeah, yeah. why don't you give us a, why don't you give us a, give us a lowdown on your book. I can't touch it yet because I'm soaking wet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really crummy outside. Yeah, and you know what? You know what? New York is like a choose your own crappy adventure when it rains. It's like, you know, especially you being tall. You're gonna get poked in the eye by some idiot's umbrella. That's true. Chinatown is a dangerous place. Oh, my God. Oh my god. And then like, you know, there's construction everywhere in New York City all the time, but they put these like theoretically helpful things to stop like bricks from falling on your head, but they funnel you through these undrained
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+[3:18] things. So you're going a whole block under this thing with, like, a bunch of people with umbrellas, like, get your blood
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+[3:23] out of my way, get your umbrella out of my way. Get your blood out of my way. And then at the last minute, like there's a giant puddle that can't be jumped or forded or anything. And of course, I'm not wearing waterproof shoes, right? Of course not. And so, but the lady in front of you just stops. Like, like, there's an alternative. Lady, turn back or go. Turn back or go. You know what I'm saying? And then when you get to the platform, after you wait for LA to go, of course, you see the... You see that subway pulling away because of that extra 5 seconds that that lady stood there like a cow looking at
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+[3:52] the... people in New York. People in New York are like cattle. Like, men and women walking around, cow, like, staring off into space, moving slowly, right? Nostalgia, you hate that, right? I hate it. I hate it. Hate, hate, hate. Nothing. So what'd you do with the poem? Straight through? Like, what's the choice? I mean, what I did was I like, one of my feet, I'm going to get wet, right? So I jump in and like the 1st foot hits, I'm like, that's done, because I'm wearing sneaks. You know what I mean? like, totally porous. They're meant to breathe. They're not meant, you know. And what's the, what's more fun? Mark, you'll know about this. What's more fun than walking around all day with a wet foot that never drives because
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+[4:31] it's, you know, raining out and human? What's the what's the best part? Yeah, the fact that your foot will potentially never recover, because I'm still separating from the same athlete's foot I had probably 30 years ago, my 1st
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+[4:43] episode. Wow, I didn't think about the permanent. I was thinking more of the sweet, sweet stench. In the evening, when you take off your, you know, like, you know, 8 hours, 9 hours, 10 hours later, when you finally get home, you peel that wet shoe off your foot.
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+[4:58] This is why I tell my son, Booker, sucks. Wear socks. New York is not a town for the sock list unless you're one of these hipsters in those sandal things. But if you wear sneakers, if you wear a fully encased foot. Put socks on that thing. What do you think? Can I always go with the crocs? The porous confidence clock. Listen, Mario Town coming in and talking to us about the crocs. Are you allowed any color of crock or do you have to go orange when you're over there at Del Posto? No, he is reserved the orange for himself. So what's the Del Posta color, like a nice Nate blue? Like black or blue, yeah. What do you what do you rock? Blue or the black? I wear the Brigarde slipper clog. Ooh, is that the black leather one? With the black or they come in black or white? With the nails in the side. That's pretty strong. They're not they're not wood, though. like slippers. So it's like you're cooking in your jammies. Exactly. Should I buy you a silk chef's outfit? That would be sick. That would be awesome. Like Sakai. Oh my god, that'd be amazing. So I was talking to Jen, my wife about this. was like, you know, look, I was like, Dax. I was like, Dax, you know, like my skin right now is fundamentally it's sandpaper. If I touched a silk garment with my fingers, it would like be instantly shredded. You know what I mean? Like, all like the crusty, like, callous and everything. If it touched my face, it would just rip off and there'd be like, you know, silk mess all over my face. And any second... The very 1st Iron Chef I ever did with Mario back many years ago, we did a collaboration with Sakai, the Japanese French chef, and he had like silk pajamas
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+[6:31] on and these like slipper clogs. The guy was like floating around kitchen stadium like he was Hugh Hefner or something. It's unbelievable. So we have to shave yourself if you're going to do that, right? And like sandpaper your hands. He really, he really showed us how it's done. Yeah, Jen told Dax he wasn't allowed to wear silky. She's like, you can't do it. I was like, what about silk jammies? I'm thinking of getting a pair of silk jammies. I mean, anything feel better than the silk jammy. I couldn't afford it when I was a kid. I was like, my mom's like, you can have that like weird satin stuff. What was that stuff made of? like spun plastic. Silket. Yeah, you know, real flammable back in the 70s, you know. Like in the 70s, I used to make kids' pajamas, especially to catch on fire. You know what I mean? that's what way to do rid of them. Anyway, okay, so back to the book. Talk to me. Yeah, so it's, you know, it's a restaurant cookbook. Del Posto being a restaurant that's going just entered its 12th year. So we have quite a bit of material that we wanted to cover. Michael and I have been spending the better part of, God, I think the 1st conversation might have been as long as 5 years ago. Not with me, not with you. But it's been, uh... I came on in probably last week, like last week. And, uh, yeah. So you know, we chose some dishes that we felt strongly about. And the interesting thing is that Michael really encouraged us to create a book that was approachable to the home cook, meaning
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+[7:54] getting rid of some of that professional restaurant speak. And so we actually did it in a very unorthodox way. We chose the dishes and photographed them 1st and then spent close to 2 years going back and deconstructing and re-engineering all the recipes so that they contained, you know, sort of lay home kitchen language, which I guess the only negative part of that is that it creates very, very long recipes because to
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+[8:26] Long wording or like wording. Yeah, exactly. And they take a long time too. you know, let's not, these aren't going to, these are like quick night recipes, but they do work. They're broken into parts and they are... Our audience not scared. Our audience not scared by this. That's true. Actually, we're more scared about the questions they might ask us than them actually being able to complete the recipes. But yeah, so they're incredibly thorough. And something that you probably don't see very often. And we spent a tremendous amount of energy, you know, laboring over the language to make sure that it was understandable
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+[9:01] from people that were enthusiasts, but not necessarily experts. So is 100 layer lasagna in there? Of course. Okay, now, you know, that's like, like, what are your most most famous? Like you show up at the restaurant, you get the you get the arancini with the with the gold thing, right? Is that in there? Yeah, Marquesa, it's in there. Yeah. And then you got your 100 layer lasagna. You got your little... What about like your, like, your house pastas? Are they in there? Yeah, we have a couple different recipes. Your DP coins? What are those called? I don't remember. We're working this new one now that's actually little toys, so they're all different shapes, which is pretty interesting. Like what, like, but like extruded shapes or like actual fish? No, there's stuffed stuffed shapes, but like mix, match, meastie kind of thing, yeah. Like donkeys and puppets? Like what kind of shit? If only. If only we had, you know... Don start 3D printing pasta mark. have to have a fistfight right here. People that nimble. You'll beat me, I'm sure. don't know. I would. Where's the, where's this centrifuge? I won't talk about a name. Talk about this thing. Nastasia says you carried it on your back like an infant, is that true? I did last week. I brought it here because we had to negotiate something, but I'm printing out I'm printing out some I'm remaking the lid. So the centrifuge is designed to constantly feed new product in. So I had to print. So there's a thing called a feed or tube. Part of the patented process of making the spins all. It's the reason why no one else can build the spins all the way we can do it because we got a patent on it, a patent pending. Anyway. So it's this tube feeder that feeds the thing in and that's what allows it to do continuous feeding. So I was building a new, a new tube system on the bottom to, you know, increase the clarity of continuous versus batch mode. And I did like, I don't know, I did like, oh, like 2.5 liters of strawberry in a row yesterday and it was perfect. I actually took it to Oto. I was making strawberry cordial for the drinks I was slinging at Ocho last night. But it leaves me to this. So like, I'll just say, but we should talk about the book and then come back and talk about the center. Talk about later. That's about it. So it's, you know, broken down into chapters, Antipasti, Premi, Segundi. Dolce. There's an entire chapter just on gelato and sorbetti, which is unusual. We have a question about that, actually. Really? Okay, cool. You want to hear that question? Sure, I would love to. All right. So, and didn't we have a question last week, Nastasia, but we answered it, like, with theoretically answered it. But then do you, yeah? I'm hoping that Chef Ladner is going to be on the show this week. Well, you are in luck, Ellie. I just received the book this week and I'm enjoying it very much. What caught my eye are the gelato recipes. They use egg yolks but are not cooked. This seems peculiar. I like the word peculiar. You like to work here? It reminds me of Marvin gay. Mhm. Yeah. This seems peculiar, and I've never seen it before. Why? Do they still thicken the mixture like a custard wood? Are they left raw for texture or flavor? I'm looking forward to trying the recipes out soon, but would like to hear David Mark's thoughts about this topic. Thanks Ellie Nasser. Now, I have my own thoughts on this going way back from other, you know, from pastry
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+[12:09] chefs that I've known, one particular one. Well, John, well, make Sam Mason, actually. Oh, course, yeah. But anyway, go ahead. give your spiel. Well, you know, uh, definitely, you know, most of these uh, recipes were, at least uh, initially formulated by Brooks Headley, the uh, pasta genius, I mean, the pastry genius now at uh,
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+[12:36] Speriority Burger. And then our current pastry chef, Justine
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+[12:41] McNeil sort of completed the initial thought, but, you know, Brooks has always been a firm advocate of the hang and of the really
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+[12:51] chewy, viscous texture. so that it, uh, you know, hangs around your mouth a little longer. You can taste it a little better. You know, you can really similar to mayonnaise, you know, sometimes you're rolling the dice. I mean, on the safety? Yeah, but functionally, why not cook it? Uh, graininess? So, Sam Mason. Back when I 1st got to know him after WD opened in like, I don't know, like 03 or whenever it
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+[13:22] opened right around then, right? 0203, when I got to know him, you know, I came to realize that he had a bunch of ice cream recipes where he wasn't cooking the egg yolks, but it was still a custard base. wasn't Philly style. Basically, no one in New York makes Philly style. None of the big restaurants, I know, do a Philly style ice cream. which is weird. Even in apoco jet, you think someone would do a good Philly style ice cream. Maybe you can't. Maybe it overturns in a pocket. don't know. I haven't tried it. Anyway, I love good Philly ice cream. Do you like it? Yeah. It has to be super fresh. Has to be super fresh. Anyway, so I was like, yo, Sam, while you don't cook your egg yolks. And he's like, I don't like the aroma and taste of the cooked egg, but I like the texture that
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+[14:03] they kind of like the smooth texture that the egg yolk
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+[14:07] spring. And so the deal with not cooking the egg yolks is what they're not
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+[14:11] going to bring is the thickness of a cooked creme anglaise. It's just not going to have that thickness. That said, the thicker you cook your creme anglaise, the more eggy it tastes.
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+[14:24] So you can't like win on that account. Like, if you're trying to thicken up your, uh, your anglaise base and
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+[14:30] thicken it on glaze base is really good if you're going to serve it as a sauce, right? Or if you're really worried about meltdown. So, like, you know, a thicker on glaze base will do a slower meltdown than a thinner on glaze base.
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+[14:43] And, you know, basically all this is all these ice cream recipes is a flavored creme anglaise, right? So, um, but, uh, the what you pay for with that thickness is egg taste, and he hated it. He hated that egg taste. you know what I'm talking about. especially like for a pastry chef who cooks with eggs all day long, that residual egg nose that you get like after you wash out
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+[15:02] a stainless steel. You know, when you wash out a stainless steel bane that's had eggs in it, you're like freaking that egg smell. You know what I mean? It's more like a sabion or a hollandaise or something. Yeah, so he didn't he didn't like it. So he didn't cook the eggs. And then later on, you know, he started pasteurizing the eggs, load temps, so he would use pasteurized yoles. Yeah. So they would still, they would be safe, but they-ish, but they wouldn't have that cooked note because you can take an egg yolk, you know, up to 57, pasteurize it
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+[15:30] for like an hour and and it still is raw smelling. You know what I mean? It doesn't have that cooked kind of egg thing. Michael, do you remember any of the conversations happening when we were developing these recipes related to
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+[15:42] the yokes? Um, I remember I remember it being brought up as a potential safety
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+[15:49] issue. And then we decided it probably really wasn't that they would be pretty rare that anyone that was cooking out of this book was going to have a safety issue with their eggs,
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+[15:59] but also, if it tastes too eggy, it doesn't taste Italian. I mean, there isn't like a there isn't any sort of inherent egginess in Italian gelata. Are your gelato recipes like, you said Brooks likes the chew. Are they heavily stabilized? So that's like true. like there's all these like people who are like true Italian. No, true Italian gelato has stabilized to the freaking gills, right? So you don't need the milk protection from a thick on glaze base when you are, if you're going to add stabilizers. One thing about adding stabilizers, obviously, depending on which stabilizers you use,
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+[16:34] lisers you use is that you need to, you need to punch the flavors up. I mean, that's why like Italian flavors, they're smooth, but they're so punchy because they have to add so much flavor for that level of, of hit. Hey, you know what I want you to try? You know what? We should try sometimes, maybe in the next week or so. It's not like commercial quantity. Like you couldn't do it in a restaurant, but the paste that's left over in
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+[17:02] the... Oh, I can only imagine. Yeah, Nastasia and I were talking about that on the train today. Yeah. Yeah, take a centrifuge. You spin it, you get the paste spin that into an ice cream. It's got a, it's got like a grainy, like pumpkin pie texture, at least a peach that we did. but it's so freaking smooth and dense because what you do is you take your fruit, your fruit of choice, you hit it with the
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+[17:22] pectinex, it wipes out the structure and everything. Well, and then it just, oh, what the sweet potato is nuts. If we do the sweet, you even like the sweet potato puree. And Nastasi hates everything. The sweet potato puree, what you do with the sweet potatoes, you take the sweet potatoes, you cook it, right? And then you, um, just blend the hell out of it with the same enzymes that distillers use to do sacrification for their awards and
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+[17:45] stuff, and you get this hyper, and then you spin it to get rid of the liquids, right? And then you just have this like hyper, uh, concentrated, super sweet, no sugar added, sweet potato puree, just add like a little cream to that mother and spin it. You want to do it? I'm sure the applications are just infinite. We can make it. We can make a small amount, like, just in a kitchen egg, because you have LM over there. at Del Poste. It would be fun, right? I mean we'll do it. Tell people about it. But, like, even just, like, fruits, like, um, strawberry and whatnot. Like, you're just not used to having something that's so smooth but so high solids.
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+[18:21] I mean, that's the thing so high. For instance, I'll give you an example. So when I did, um, I did one. 75 actually, I did one. 75 kilos of strawberries yesterday in a batch to do continuous mode on my
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+[18:33] centrifuge. And, uh, I got 13 I got 1,350 mils of juice. So if you think about it, that's like 70, that's like 70 something percent yield, which means that the residuals that left over
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+[18:51] are... You know what I mean? There's no water. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I mean, there's, I mean, like compared, it's like compared to what an original strawberry was. So like, anyway, it'd be fun to play with. And is that just like a Driscoll regular available commercial? You could say garbage strawberry. Yes, it was a garbage strawberry, but it still tastes good. Well, there's some advantages to garbage strawberries. We could talk about that now. So, I'll get to the say something about the spin zone. I should give the pitch, right? Because Nastasia is, like, we're all nervous about this. So listen, so for those of you that don't know, we are pre-selling the spins all, should I
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+[19:25] give, I'll give it, the spins all. It's the only centrifuge design specifically for the kitchen and bar. So we're pre-selling this thing for 699. Make sure you check out the videos on Instagram. Yeah, I'm going to put up some more. We have a bunch more videos that we're going to put up. In fact, I'm going to chef steps on Thursday. I mean, on Wednesday and then I guess maybe we're meeting with Kenji in San Francisco on
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+[19:49] Thursday, try to push it out. We'll do a video on Facebook live with the chef steps and show it. What is Nastasia's spins all pitch sound like? Let's do it. Does it get a good one? Just buy it. Come on, Stos. buy it. That Nastasia right there. Right. So I'll say this. So, like, the spins all does 500 milliliters at a time batch, which is
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+[20:08] the more than most home people need for most applications they're doing, but it also does what's called continuous
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+[20:13] mode where you just stick the pipe. you stick a tube in it. It pumps it through and just feeds it through and continuously operates it. And so like orange juice, you could probably do, you could probably do like, I don't know, a gallon or 2 at a time without stuff. And then what would you know to change the basket? It depends on the solids ratio. So for something like strawberries, I probably wouldn't do more than like, uh, two, three, 3
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+[20:35] liters, maybe, at a time because you don't want the solids to overflow the rotor. Um, but something like lime juice or grapefruit juice or orange juice, gallons because there's not a lot of solids in there. So really, everything depends on the, on what you're, on what you're doing. Really, the best application, one of the best app. I'll give you some applications for chefs. Let's forget the bar application. By the way, I will say this. You go to modernistpantry.com forward slash spinsall to pre-order it. Now, I want to say something to people so they get this. If you do not pre-order, if we do not sell a 1000 of these, pre-order, then we can't afford to build
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+[21:10] it and we won't build it unless the angel comes in, which we don't expect, right? So if we don't sell a 1000 of them, they just don't get made. I mean, that's it. And then I'm just left with that one prototype, wah, wah, I call the people in China that
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+[21:21] Nastasia and I have been working with for 2 years on this project and tell them, you know what? Sorry, folks, we folded up, we walk away. I mean, that's unfortunately, yeah, I mean, that's what's going to happen. Yeah. So if you don't order it, we won't build it. But here's one of the people, someone came up to me. I'm not going to say who it is. It was Don Lee. the cocktail guy. Then he goes up to me. Hey, Dave, hey, why didn't you just use Kickstarter? Why didn't you just kickstart this? Why you got to use your own crowdfunding? Hey, hey, hey, hey. Well, who does? Wow. So Don doesn't talk like that, by the way. But the point is, is here's the reason, one of the reasons why. With Kickstarter, part of it was, Nastasia, I mean, to be honest, Nastasia hates Kickstarter. But, uh, like, but she hates everything. She hates biscuits. Like that's going to stop me from making biscuits, right? But the point is, uh, we're really taking the risk on ourselves, and this is what I think is not clear. With a Kickstarter, if you, if the campaign gets funded, you, all of your money is gone into a
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+[22:19] hole and then you either get the product or you don't, you know, you know, depending on whether or not the people who are making it are competent, blah, blah, blah, you know, that money is
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+[22:28] gone. You can't get it back. That's part of the thing about Kickstarter. One of the reasons we did this is we didn't want people to feel like they were taking a risk. It's one of the weird kind of incorrect notions that people have
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+[22:39] about, they feel safer on Kickstarter somehow because it's, because I know about Kickstarter, right? So they feel safer on it, even though literally as soon as that campaign is over, your money goes into a pit that may or may
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+[22:50] not, and you may or may not ever get your reward. Well, the other misconception is that money gained, earned on Kickstarter is free money, which is
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+[22:56] most certainly not. It's not. But in our campaign, you can get a refund up
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+[23:01] till the up till the very point at which we ship you the unit. So there is 0 risk to pledge in the spins all campaign, 0 risk. So you pledge now what you're telling us is that I'm going to want, we're going to spend the money, right? Because we need to build the spins alls, but at some point you're like, you know what? Uh, I don't, it turns out I hate awesome things. It turns out that, like, it turns out I am an enemy of quality after all. And, uh, you know, uh, you could be like, you know what, Dave, you know what, Nastasia, I want my money back. And we're like, okay, fine, boom. Here's your money back. And that's one of the main reasons we did it is that the risk, the risk is on us. So you should feel like super safe going out there and getting it. anyway. And remember, you don't you don't buy it. don't build it. So what are some of the other applications aside from bar? Right. So it, like, so what Renny Rizzeppi, did that tell you about the thing with, like, everyone who's chasing stars,
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+[24:00] we're like, back in the day, Michelin stars. or anything. But the thing is, does he does he, what does he has? He have 2 or 3 at Noma. Yes, too, but yeah, but he's got like the Pellegrino, like he was like the top restaurant in the universe, which you know, I hate all those ratings, right? I need test them. They're stupid. Oh, unless we have one. But, like, you know what I'm saying? It's like the idea of the, I mean, like, I like anything that helps my, uh, the people I know are good people, like, get more business. I'm for people getting business and if like awards and like accolades like this or what it takes for people to go to someone's
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+[24:32] restaurant who works hard, great. You know what I mean? Look at those, it helps. It helps. Yeah. I mean, like I wish that wasn't what helped, but it does. And so therefore, I'm glad when, you know, my friends get these things. But, um, you know, Fabulous and Jeremiah got their 1st Michelin star recently. Well deserved. Yeah, yeah. Contra got the star, right? Yes, contract. Yeah. Other Wilder deserved one as well. Yeah, because, I mean, they're joined kitchens, basically. They share their, like, not joined, but like there's just one wall between them. Anyway, not talking about that. Proteges of yours, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, what were we talking about? Oh, wait, Randy R Zeppi. So Renny, we used to, Nastasi and I, when someone was like trying to get all those awards, we'd be like, and we didn't think that someone was going to get
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+[25:13] it. We'd be like, yo, wake up and smell the red Zeppi. You know what I mean? Because it's like, it's like, you know, hey, buddy, you're not gonna get there. You're not going to be Renny Razeppi. Wake up and smell it. You know what I mean? Just be yourself. Anyway, uh, anyway. So the uh, that's neither here nor there. So, uh, Ariel um, Johnson, who was at the Nordic food lab for many years before she moved to MIT
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+[25:34] recently. She said that one of the main things that they do in the centrifuge is herb oils. So, but they do crazy herb oils. So like I asked her, they do like almost like one-to-one herb to uh, herb to oil. So it's like pesto thick, right? And then they spin the solids off. So, like, I don't do it that thick because I think it's kind of absurd and I'm
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+[25:55] not like, you know, I'm not trying to, but we'll do like, I'll do like 22 to one. So it's basically pesto. You take all the water out and it's super stable. Yes. So what you do is, is you blend, you can, like, in the, in the, in the spins all, you can blend any oil batch that has up to about 400 grams of herb.
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+[26:14] Like, it's sweet spot is around like 2 or three, like 300 grams of herb, and then, um, you know, the balance oil, but it can be any amount of oil you want. It doesn't have to be within the 500. And then you add, like, so you just subtract out the weight of the rotor. So let's say you use 400 grams of herb. You take like 75 grams of water, put it right in the spins all, start it, and then feed the oil in. All the water goes into the rotor, and you get this pure, intense green, highly stable herb oil with no water in it. And it's like, you can't possibly make this herb oil without a centrifuge unless you sit there and you
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+[26:52] twist, you know, like one of those fine bags and you get like 3 drops.
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+[26:57] You're not gonna get any yields. We get we get something like 80% of the oil back. So it's like super awesome. And so, uh, I did a pasta, actually, with, uh, I did a, I did a basil oil and a parsley
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+[27:10] oil and mixed them, and just because my kids are like, my kids are like, I don't want me, uh, like herbs in my, in my pasta, but I love that kind of fresh parsley or fresh basil thing.
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+[27:21] So I just toss the oil and yeah, did with the finishing oil, toss it off at that, and they were like, okay, they didn't complain because they actually don't dislike the taste. They dislike the idea of a leaf. Green leaf in their in their free product. Yeah, yeah. Anyways. So that's good. I really like, again, maybe not for restaurants, but I really like centrifuge butter. We're really excited about seeing that today, but we couldn't find any cream in any of these sister stores out here. But I'll come to Del Postos. Like, uh, when I get back, maybe like, I don't know what your schedule is. I'll come back maybe next week when I when I'm back. The butter is good. Another classic chef one, I'll tell you. So you take a fruit, right? And, uh, let's say you want to make a really reduced, uh, really reduced, like, fruit thing. This is what I brought. So like the garbage strawberries I had yesterday. What's good about them is they're relatively low bricks, which means if you they have low sugar. And the good news about that is, is that you can boil it way the hell down before the temperature gets too high.
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+[28:17] So it stays pretty close to the regular boiling point, so it doesn't get brown notes, and you can reduce it way down, and then dope sugar. No, yeah, right. And then at the end, you hit the sugar back in to balance out the acid because a garbage strawberry is low
+
+[28:31] bricks high acid. But I didn't reduce it enough, but yeah, you could try it. I didn't reduce enough. I could have gone twice as much, but you can't reduce strawberry puree with pectin in it, right? So I only reduce this by like twice. I could have done it by like 4 and hit, you know, and hit it with some sugar, but or you could hit it with a hydrocollid. kind of tastes like shit, Dave. No, I'm kidding. Tastes really good. I mean it's good, right? I mean, but you could have reduced it like, it's like jam almost. But anyway. So like really fruity. It's really bright. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. So, like, but I could have, like I say, reduced it by another, like, if I had taken, literally, I was like, I thought about this as I was walking out the door, I was already
+
+[29:11] late. So I put my widest fry pan on my stove, cranked it, dumped the strawberry, and was like, boom, like tried to take it as fast as I could, and then like as I knew I was gonna, in fact, I missed that subway, the one that would get me here on time. I poured it into that container, took a couple spoonfuls of sugar,
+
+[29:24] it was like, ginger ting. She'll get in the can. And there's no there's no residual flavors from the enzymes or anything. Oh, zero. You're using like, you're using like 0. uh, like 0.2 to 0.4%. They have a vaguely kind of a ferment, fermented aroma, but they're, you know, and this one only uses one enzyme anyway. Also, the color is so brilliant. Right? incredible. Dave, did you say what the size of the devices of the spins all? about the size of a food processor. Here's the thing. If you look, here's the other thing, right? Let's say let's say you want to have a centrifuge in your restaurant or bar, right? What are you going to do? You're going to invest $8,000 on something that takes up half of your prep area? No, that requires training for someone to balance it. No, because here's the other thing. Let's say you could afford it, right? Now, Mark, what's the worst thing that happens when you're relying on a piece of equipment? Some knucklehead goes and tries to use it when they're not qualified. And they break and they break it, then you're out 2 things. You're out the money and all of a sudden you're 86 on all the products that use it. You know what I mean? Yeah, you can't make it another way, right? Right. So you have 2 or 3 Vitapreps. So when a knucklehead breaks the Vitaprep, which invariably happens. exactly what we do. Yeah, you have another Vitaprep there. So the good thing here is you can test out to see whether you like having a centrifuge, right? And then you could get a backup because they're so cheap compared to like the big size centrifuge, you know, anyway, that's what, because I think
+
+[30:49] that like what I was thinking about it, like one of the main, um, aside from the size and the cost is just the lack of backup. I was so nervous, like, I always had 2 centrifuges, real ones, big ones, at Booker and Dax, because I needed them. And when one died and we were down to one,
+
+[31:05] I like, I flew, I was constantly on edge that it was going to die. And in fact, did die, and I had to run borrow Wiley centrifuge, uh, and so like I borrowed his interfuge, but it's a real kind of a nightmare to be so dependent on such a large,
+
+[31:19] uh, you know, £300 thing that cost, you know, 8 grand. It's very... A lot of your production is coming out of it. Yeah. I mean, like, well, some 80% of our menu had something that's gone through the centerfuge,
+
+[31:31] like not necessarily like huge quantity, but like all the clarified citrus, all
+
+[31:35] the, um, you know, all those things. Some of that stuff won't take the carbonation properly if it's not clear. No, none of it, none of it. You need to clarify everything that you're going to carve me, especially going to pre-carbonate me, if you're going to squeeze a lime into something afterwards, I mean, fine, but, you know, if anything, you're going to pre-carb, you need that. Uh, you know, and plus I just enjoy clear things. Anyways, so those are like, you know. For example, at your new bar, how many of these spinzils would you perhaps have on premise? Uh, four. Four. Four. Because what if you have 4 that matches the actual, like, real-time capacity of the big centrifuge, but you could task it with 4 different
+
+[32:09] products or you could do continuous. So if you have 4 spins alls, you have the actual, like, real time, um, it's actually faster because they clarify faster than a normal centrifuge because they have less distance to
+
+[32:22] go. So, yeah, you're actually at a faster throughput with 4 spinzols than you are with
+
+[32:28] one uh 10,000. And you don't have to worry about the balancing. No balancing. Yeah, you can run the products separately. You can open it, you can look at it while it's running. You know what I mean? So it's, I mean, that's what I'm going to do. I'm not even going to buy, when we reopen, which by the way, I'm looking at space, you know, but when we reopen, it won't be called Booker and Dax, though, unfortunately. I don't know what's going to be called. Do you have any good bar names? I don't know what was what did you say the Arnold name means again? I, uh, what's it called? What that called? I focused on some of the people at the bar last night, Eagle
+
+[33:02] Power, and they were like, no. I was like, here's how it works. Here's where Eagle Power is, right? So you walk into whatever the actual bar name is, right? Whatever it is, right? What do you think about Rochambeau? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so you walk into Rochambeau and you're like, I want to go to Eagle Power.
+
+[33:23] And they, we take you downstairs into like a little like boiler room thing with just one seat and like you were at the Eagle Power
+
+[33:28] Bar. Like, that's it. That's it. You are Eagle Power. Or alternatively, we just like clear your service. So, you know how many you walk in, like we give you the glass, we give you everything, right? You just say, Eagle power. And we clear your service and your menu, hand you like a special service and the eagle power, and we put like a box around you. So you are in evil power zone there. The other specialty bar, because we could have multiples if, you know, creamy tins, because I have so many recipes with like cream
+
+[33:57] syrups and you're like creamy tins, because that's a bartender's worst nightmare. It's creamy, creamy tins, worst. Uh, okay. So, should we take a break? Yeah. Well, let's take a break, come back with more Del Posto and cooking issues.
+
+[34:23] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, crème brûlée, even smooth, crunchy pickles, vibrant
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+[34:46] purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[35:03] Browse chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[35:17] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back. So, um, actually, Mark, you saw us use the spins, all right? I did, yeah, yeah. I was super impressed because I had seen just video of some of the earlier prototypes and the thing looked like it was going to take off to Mars. I was scared for your life. trying to operate that thing. But this other one is like really tame, it's quiet. It's like the spin is like a pleasant noise. Yeah, and you value, uh, some sort of calm in the kitchen. Yeah, quality. You're a you're a calm cook, right? I mean, you're when things go wrong, you get sad, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, the fuck. Not the true tantrums from now and then. I picture you more as a. T takes too much energy. Yeah. People realize that. Before the sad, like, oh, you've hurt the food. years ago. You hurt the food. Why did you hurt the food? You know what I mean? I mean, my general philosophy is to remove variable forever from the equation prior to service so that when you're in
+
+[36:28] service, you can just go. And most of the times those variables for air, the cooks. Especially with, yeah, that's best video. No, no, not our cooks. No, no, my I've met a bunch of your cooks. Your cooks are fantastic. I think you do. How many do you have? 8 million? Yeah, quite a few. Like, seriously, how many people work? Many dozens. Many dozens. But like over a 100 people work there, right? 200. 200. Yeah. 200 people work there and you have, what, 8,000 feet? 60 in the kitchen. Yeah, you have 8,000 seats? How many seats are you? 400 seats. Come on, really? 400 seats. That's like, that's like a high school. It's big. Yeah. Like a whole high school could have their graduation if they had the money. The whole high school could have their graduation party. 24,000 square feet. So it could actually be many more seats. So I'm actually considering myself fortunate to only have 400. Yeah, so also, like, I was thinking about this the other day because, and we've talked about this. Remember WD 50? Of course I do. Wiley's restaurant. Wiley's restaurant was kitchen wise, a cook's paradise. It was crazy. Like his ratio of back to front of house. I was like, I was like, like a kitchen that luxurious will never be replicated again. But then your kitchen is pretty freaking luxurious. I mean, you have, I mean, but you do a lot of, you do like a lot of work in there, it doesn't necessarily go out to the floor, right? Or do you use it just very luxurious? We just have like a super luxurious. The actual story that probably most people don't know about was that one time I took a walk with Mario early on during the demolition phase before the construction actually started, and he simply took a look at the
+
+[37:59] room and took his orange clog and drew an imaginary line and said,
+
+[38:05] no dining room past this point. Um, and that's how the kitchen was. And you're like, what am I going to do in my space? He's like, I don't care. I don't care. pretty much, yeah. Wow. So what is it like, just basically, like not having to like, not having to be in kind of crushing evil death for
+
+[38:28] kitchen. What's that like? It's it's it's palatial. I mean, that's one of the things that I realized, you know, before I accepted the position was that, you know, if I'm going to be working in this profession as a
+
+[38:39] chef, I'm going to be working many hours and I'm going to be toiling away and I might as well be in a nice, nice environment. It's bigger than it needs to be. And I don't think all of the necessarily all the young cooks really appreciate what that what that means and what reality is like because it's not reality.
+
+[38:58] Um, but we just try to be sort of, you know, gracious about it and not take it for
+
+[39:04] granted and, uh, yeah, we're lucky. I mean, assuming you can do your numbers on the front of house, because you have more than enough space, right, for what you want to do. So assuming that like, and I guess the bigger your space is, the lower the rent per square foot is probably, right? So assuming you can juggle the numbers, do you think that having a really nice, in other words, like
+
+[39:23] pleasant kitchen, it makes the restaurant more sustainable because you have less turnover? You have same turnover, you think? You don't think they appreciate it? I don't think it matters. They get a lot of people who leave and they're like, man, I wish I hadn't left and they come back. Sometimes yeah. Actually, that happens quite a bit, which is pretty great. love that. And do you, do you then punish them for having left? No, I mean, we also treat our people well. You know, we believe in a new sort of world order of altruistic business and
+
+[39:54] personnel management, you know, so we treat people well. Have you met your girlfriend, Nastasia? Yeah. She's the enemy of altruism. It is not true. No, she just, it's not this. No, look, let's be fair to Nastasia. not that she... That's not it. She just enjoys stirring the pot so much that she
+
+[40:15] can't she can't stand. like a lack of strife. If there's no strife, she's not happy. Peter Kim, from Museum of Food and Drink, has turned coined a term for you. you familiar with it? I don't think Stasen Freuda. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a good one, yeah. a genius term, right? Work so well. Yeah. Did get to that. Oh, yes, okay. So, uh, you know, since I feel like we're on freaking NPR. We just asking people for money, freaking constantly. By my spins all. Buy the buy, you should buy the dope post a book. Not a big, not a big investment. How much does it cost? 50 bucks. But how much is it? You can get it way cheaper. How much is it on Amazon? Like 25, maybe. Really? No, it's like 40. Really? 40? They only cut you 10 bucks, huh? You get it for like 12 bucks at the strand. No, strand, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Nastasi and I, we've gone, they sold other ones ahead. Listen, listen. The, listen. Uh, the strand used to be a freaking... I still go. I love going and like looking at it. But in this internet era. It used to be that everything in the stream was half off, basically. You know what I mean? Even new stuff was like half off. And like they would take old books and they would mark it half off of what it cost in like
+
+[41:30] 1963. And so I would pick up, I bought, like, my, you know, the, um, my old LaRusse, my old, uh,
+
+[41:37] Pellprat, you know, the, uh, the old, uh, French, the classic French one. I picked up my 70s dish in there for nothing 5 bucks. You know what I mean? And then, you know, as the internet started creeping in, and as price checking happened, as all these, their prices actually creeped up. So, You probably got a rent increase, so. I don't know, man. You don't think they own that building? I mean, they must own that building. My point is that it's not the bargain that it used to be. I still love going there. I used to like more going there when it was so piss hot in the summer because it wasn't air conditioned back in the
+
+[42:10] day. And the employees would almost like, like, shoot you as soon as
+
+[42:14] talk to you because it was just so freaking hot. Everyone was just dripping and it smelled like hot, wet, humid book all summer.
+
+[42:21] And what I liked about it is there was no people there. And you know how I like, you know, how I hate dealing with, you know, people. So I was like, you know, I, you know, I love it. Yeah, that's freaking get out of my way. I'm trying to look at books, get out of my way. You know what I mean? You want to hate, anyway, I'm not going to hate anything. So the, yeah, I'm like, you know, dude, I'm looking. Get away. You know what I mean? Or like the, you know what I hate also? I say there's another one. I hate when, like, you're being quick and you're not really in the way and the person gives you the excuse
+
+[42:49] me. If there's an excuse me because they don't want to touch you, whatever, but they're like, excuse me. I need, you know, you're like, no, no, I'm also doing this. By the way, I am getting so much meaner in the kitchen, I found over the years because I've taken the same attitude with my family that I take with like anyone, when I'm in even
+
+[43:11] a regular kitchen, and I've just realized that Thanksgiving, We got to talk about Thanksgiving. I just realized at Thanksgiving that, um, why they think I'm a
+
+[43:20] jerk, because when you're in a kitchen and you say, excuse me, what that means is, or, or, you know, excuse me, what that means is I'm about to continue walking through you unless you
+
+[43:30] move, it doesn't mean I'm going to wait for you to move out of my way. It means this tray of stuff is headed in a straight line, and if you're in that line, you're going to get shouldered. Like, even if it's your family, that's what it means. That's what excuse me means in the context of a kitchen. Am I right about this, Mark? It's not it's not about people. Mind you are beside you. Well, yeah, but like, they don't even understand, but like, I used to smack people on the ass, but you can't do that anymore. I know. Anyway, but you get my point. I told you about the guy. I met a guy who almost died. This is another thing going back to the stupid bro crap in the kitchen they were talking about last week. I hate the spoon to the nuts trick. I don't like, you know what? I hate it. I've always hated it. First of all, it hurts like health. And I like, I don't I don't like, I don't I don't get it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, you know, like, I'm okay with, like, a nice pat on the shoulder. It's a salt. It is. A pat on the shoulder, but like the whole like grabbing someone's junk from underneath, from behind or the hitting with the spoon. So I met a guy who got spooned in the nuts and got an infection, got blood poisoning and almost died as a result
+
+[44:40] of, yeah, from a spoon, a spoon hit to the nuts. And it's just, it's just, you know, if you weren't going to get rid of the bro stuff in the kitchen to make it like a decent place to work for women,
+
+[44:52] like, do it for your own nuts. You know what I mean? Like, the nut you save may be your own. I don't see that stuff happening so much anymore. Well, good. It's stupid. It's still, it's also, like, being constantly on edge that you're about to get hit in the nuts with a spoon when you're trying to
+
+[45:08] work is not conducive to good work. You know what I mean? How do we get to this? Oh, yeah, yeah. Did you do the charity bus thing yet? come on All right, all right. So, uh, this is over, Dave. When is this over, this thing? Thursday at three. What's the website date? Thursday, 3 p.m. Eastern time. The URL is... not a Dave Arnold three. like 3 on the dot. 302. Yeah, Eastern time. It's charityboz.com. Wait, that's a long URL. No, Jebus. Hold on. All right, well, Charitybuzz.com slash support slash heritage radio. You want to throw any asterisks in, like, numbers, like, dash one, two, three, dash nine? I'll say it one more time. charitybuzz.com slash support slash heritage radio. I mean, it ain't no monitors pantry slash spins all in terms of tripping off the tongue. you know what I'm saying? But like, here's what you're going to get. So Nastasia and I have apparently donated this. This is what you get. Your experience will take place on a mutually agreed upon date between December 1st, 2016 and December 1st, 2017. Experience will occur on a mutually agreed upon Tuesday. This is valid for one person and has an approximate duration of 3 hours. This is a private meeting greet. The winner may take a photo. Of course, the winner can take a freaking photo. Nastasi, why don't you tell them, what do they get? You get to go on the radio show with us and then you get to eat lunch with us. It makes a lot of sense. All this cost of the meal is included. The experience cannot be resold or re auction. I mean, please, was that really going to happen? The estimated value is $5,000. What? We have one bid for 500. Yeah, that's Getting there. Yeah, 10%. All right. Whatever. That's a lot. Just to come on a radio show? And have lunch with you. That's the value. If only I told my kids, you know what? You should sit and finish your lunch. You know why? This is this is 5000 bucks that you're throwing away right here. Anyway, go on, donate Tuesday on a Tuesday. On a Tuesday. Lunch on a Tuesday. The most expensive pizza you will ever buy is to come eat with Estasi and I. So anyway, so like back to, we were talking, kitchens, Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving. Yeah, we don't have that much. Okay, well, let me do this question real quick. From Tom Fisher in Philly. Last summer, in 2015, I spent about a month making large amounts of clarified strawberry and raspberry juice in my centrifuge and stored it
+
+[47:23] non-spinsal, though, that wasn't a spinsal, and stored it in my refrigerator in my garage, intending to make
+
+[47:29] caesyrup later. I made the strawberry cesera, but never got around in making the raspberry. Imagine my surprise when today I found about 2 liters of raspberry juice at the back of that fridge. It's still crystal clear and smells delicious. The question is delicious. Delicious. The question is, is it safe? You see the marathon, man, the movie, the marathon, man? Great movie. Is it safe? Is it safe? remember that? Awesome. Dustin Hoffman. Dustin Hoffman and 0 my god, his name went out of my head. The is a safe guy, the dentist. Oh my god, crazy. I'm losing my mind. It's not, it's like, gone. not losing, lost. It's still crystal clearance, smells delicious. Delicious. Gosh. The question is, is it safe? Given how many raspberries it took to make that much juice, I'm hesitant to just throw it away. drink that sucker. What you have is raspberry wine, my friend. If you've sealed it well enough. It'll probably be carbonated and you'll probably see a yeast layer at the bottom, but I've had OJ that I've left in my fridge for months and months just to let it ripen
+
+[48:21] up and that stuff is good. soda that you make is amazing. No, yeah. and it won't kill you. It won't kill you. So, I mean, look, if you're, if you, uh, if you reply next week that it was delicious, I'm assuming that I was right and you didn't die.
+
+[48:33] But I'm just saying that I will, I would eat it if I were you. So what Mark, what do you do on the Thanksgiving? Uh, I went to Boston and saw my family and enjoyed someone else cooking for
+
+[48:45] Thanksgiving. Good. How overcooked was the turkey? Uh, it was it was overcooked. It was, yeah, yeah. I brought with me, though, to save the day, one of those M. Wells
+
+[48:56] tortieres. Do you know these things? No. that Hugh and Sarah make. Writis with the primary ketchup. Oh, yeah. It's like this Canadian meat pie.
+
+[49:09] Oh, I like meat pie. Oh, and lots of lard and the crust and... thing ever. Stars your Thanksgiving? Portland with my brother and my family. How was the turkey? It was good actually. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael, you? South Coast, Massachusetts. Oh yeah? Turkey was good. Yeah? What style of stuffing do they make you there? You're not some sort of weird oyster stuffing person, right? No, just like celery, bread, onions. Sausage in that thing? No. Well, with no sausage in your style? Sausage in your stuffing mark? No, sir. Stas, Stas, you're stunning? Stas is like, yeah, American. Hello. By the way, while I'm telling you what I did, I want you guys to think on this. Are we the country of gravy? Is there any other country that makes American style awesome gravy? I'm not talking about like Sunday gravy for your Massachusetts people,
+
+[49:56] you know, Italian, like gravy, which is actually sauce. But does anyone make American style? I want to call it kind of God's gravy, gravy, real gravy. Anyway, while you're thinking about that, Here's what I did. This maybe was the smoothest without a hitch Thanksgiving ever. What I did was, I bought 314 to £16 turkeys instead of one giant one. I took 2 of them, boned them out, cut, I cut them all into chicken sized pieces. So, uh, I also, then I, um, I cooked the, I salted them down and cooked them in, uh, like milk, small amount of milk and sugar under VAC
+
+[50:32] till they were cooked, pulled them, crypt attendons out of the leg pieces. So now we're all boneless, except for the thing. It took them out hot, let them flash off on racks so that the skin's got real nice and dry. And then I butter them up, breaded them like chicken fried turkey pieces. Then I took the other turkey that was left whole because you need to present a whole
+
+[50:51] bird and but it was only like 14 or 15 pounds. It was easy. Let it air dry for like, well, 1st when I took all the bones that I ripped out of the other birds. I hacked them up, cooked them in the, you know, roasted them, made a double pressure cooker stock. So one half the bones, started with chicken stock, one half the bones, boom,
+
+[51:08] boom, another one, boom, you know, freshened up the veg in that, and then took some of that, injected that,
+
+[51:15] added a little salt, injected that into the whole bird into the breast. So it brining it with its own, you know, with its own kind, you know, cannibal brine. And then let that air dry for a couple of hours. Turn the other stuff back into gravy with the roux. Eh, I misjudged a little bit how much rue, so I had to add some Bermani at the end. You know what I mean? Sorry about that. Anyway. So then I had the chicken. So then I deep fried at a lower temperature, the whole bird in my commercial deep fryer outside with propane, deep fried that whole bird till it was done, you know, then
+
+[51:44] pulled that, and then while that was resting at the table, did all the, like cranked the temperature and did all the pre-cooked chicken fried turkey and then pulled it
+
+[51:51] out. So we had this giant table full of freaking, yeah, turkey, lot of turkey. I can only imagine the turkey frying explosion you could be
+
+[52:01] responsible for. This is why I air dried. Yeah, air the trick with it, 1st of all, with any bird that you're gonna fry, whole fry. I think a lot of them say people make it, you dry it. You know what I mean? Otherwise, you get really kind of nightmare scenarios. And the other thing is that when you're frying in a commercial deep fryer as opposed to in one of those, the problem with the, the, the, the turkey fryers that they sell you, where you're cooking in those 5 gallon jugs and you go down, is that it orients the turkey such that if you have any moisture on the inside, you create a fountain. And I think that's what a lot of the reasons they overfill the oil and they get this like boiling fountain effect coming through the center of the turkey and it overflows.
+
+[52:37] and miscalculate the, the, um, displacement of oil, right? Yeah. Whereas in a commercial deep fryer, you're going horizontally. So you still get some foam up, but it's not like, it's not a big deal. You know, in fact, the top of the breast was out a little bit. So we were doing, we were ladling, ladling over the top to get it done, which is actually not bad because that part of meat you don't want overcooked anyway. So back to the gravy question. Does anyone do gravy the way we do gravy? I don't know. Is it like a crayle thing? Did it come from New Orleans? I don't know. I mean, they like their roof for sure. Nastasia, if you don't like gravy, that might be the end. Do you like gravy? Really? Oh my god. Freaking guy. Oh my freaking God. Oh. What do you like, Nastasia? I like Las Vegas. I don't like I don't like... Do you like mashed potatoes? Yes, no gravy. Thank God. Mark puts enough butter and cream to kill 5 horses. Wait, are you an anti-cream in your mashed potatoes guy, Mark? No, I think dairy is helpful. No, but like, so I know some people, I'm not going to mention them, Wiley, who is like butter only. I don't want to add any liquid to my potatoes. I want to add all of the viscosity with butter. Robichol style. But I like cream in my, I like the cream in it, yeah. I bought a... I hate food mills, by the way. Yeah, I hate for potatoes. For potatoes. I detest them. I hate them. JJ, who used to work for Wiley, is now doing Ando. He, when a couple of years ago, he was cooking a feast with his mom. His mom handed him a food meal. He opened the door to her house and threw the food mill out into. I am convinced. So food mill, this is food mill is one of the biggest enemies of quality that's out there in terms of your life. I don't think there's any cook who likes food milks that uses them. No, you have cooks that will use the food milk for you. When was the last time you sit there and like took the food mill and you're cranking it and you're cranking it and there's only that tiny freaking wedge that works and it
+
+[54:32] gets it gets clogged and then you have to back it up every 2 seconds. It takes 18,000 years. You're scalding your knuckles, the bowl sliding around. It's garb, bench. It's garbage, it's garbage. And I know they use it at Del Posto every freaking day because I was talking to your cooks at Oto last week. No, but for tomatoes, they make tomato strainers, dude. It's like, Nah, it's not the same. Wait, you're telling me that your cook's putting the tomato to a tomato to a food meal is better than one of those mechanical, like, KitchenAid tomato strainers or the large version of it? don't know what that is. I'll tell you what it is. It's a lot freaking easier to use than a food mill. Well, what else are they going to do? There's like 60 of them. They got to do something. That's true. It's like, I, anyway, I hate food mills. I think anyone that actually has to use them hate them. So I bought a really good ricer. I bought, because, you know, I've told you this? I like potatoes in a rice. Some people don't like them. I love rice. I love rice potato because you're going to break up those little rice pellets as you stir, but it like maintains as much texture as you want. I think I love the rice. I think getting like a last. There's something about it that's just right with the rice. I promise, I've broken every single ricer I've ever used, because I'm just like, like I'm an animal, somehow on equipment, like, it's not that I'm physically strong, but I can break anything, especially if there's a lever arm on it.
+
+[55:44] So I bought the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I bought the cast aluminum one because I thought it wasn't going to bend. And so far, NorPro, yeah, they NorPro makes a stainless one, but someone was like, I bought the stainless one in a bent. I was like, I'm going to go with the cast one. If it breaks, I'll go get the stainless steel one. So, you want me on the way out, you want me to tell you what my potatoes this year? All right. So what I love, the way I break my riceers is cook the potatoes,
+
+[56:10] I you know, I roasted potatoes in their jackets, right? And then I rice them whole, then I save the squash skins and I fry them up as a leftover. Right? But it's a huge paint in the ass and you have to cut all these hot potatoes and like nightmare and all this. So this year what I did was, I peeled all the potatoes like standard, foil wrapped them, threw them in the oven, baked them so they wouldn't take on any extra
+
+[56:31] water, and you could do a long bake without them breaking apart. Then all you had to do was like quick, snap the foil off and throw them in the rice or boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
+
+[56:39] boom. And we never had to clean out your ricer because it didn't have all of those skins on the inside. So that was my, that was my skiz illest trick on the potatoes. Anyway, that was Thanksgiving. My house. Thanks to Michael and Chef Mark Vladner for coming in and talking. marginally. It's like pulling teeth, getting you guys to talk about your cookbook. Go buy the freaking cookbook, learn how to make the fabulous 100 layered lasagna. Oh, on the way out. Here's what I didn't ask you. So, you rejigger all the talk and the way the recipes are organized for home folks. And I will vouch for you, knowing you for many years, that you don't like things that aren't the way you want them. right? Sure. Yeah. And so I'm sure that you put in 8 boatloads of work to ensure that the results that the people are
+
+[57:24] going to get are pretty damn close to what you want them to get if they follow your instructions. Is that true? Do you feel you've achieved the same? In all honesty, Michael put in more of the time than I did, but I would absolutely agree that it's
+
+[57:38] like, yes. insane amount of work that went into this book. But I'm saying, like, so if someone wants to make the 100 layer lasagna here, The workflow might not be the same because workflow in a restaurant is different from workflow at home, right? And like the plus is different. Everything's different. But if they follow the instructions, they are going to, and they are, and they're not enemies of quality. They will be able to produce with this recipe. absolutely no question. The same stuff. They're tested like 3 times, each one. I mean, each piece of the recipes were tested as we went along, but then the final recipe was tested
+
+[58:10] 3 times. Once in metric, once in American. Um, and all this was done. All the final testing was done on a 4 burner stove in an apartment with our recipe tester. Nice. So it works. You ever set off the detectors, the smoke detectors? Sure. Nice. Many times. But the point is, is that it works. So we know it works because we literally did it as if someone in your home would be different. And the language is digestible, although long. And Dirty Secret, by the way, that I guess it's not a secret. Everybody knows it, is that, like, most cookbooks ain't nobody testing those recipes. Your editors aren't like, did you test the recipes? Editors don't care. Shockingly. I mean, like, you know, my other cares, but like vast majority of people, they don't care. So like a lot of the cookbooks you get out there, they're just completely untested recipes, especially
+
+[58:57] just not knocking chefs, but like what happens is chefs, you know, don't have a lot of time. And so what happens is, is that you have your internal specs and then you try to butcher those internal specs directly into a home
+
+[59:08] recipe. doesn't work. It doesn't free you can work. Also, because there's a conceit of like, oh, well, they'll never even get this piece of equipment. You'll never even be able to really get this ingredient the way we want it. So why bother? I'm talking about cookbooks from, you know, restaurants like Del Posto, sort of the top tier stuff. So they say, well, really this, we should just write this down because it's another outline for chefs and for people to look at how the food is put together and all that stuff.
+
+[59:32] There's some cookbooks out there where they're fine print in the back. I mean, sort of some very high restaurants to say, basically, you can't make this at home. I mean, that's in the fine frame. Well, so, so I'm not suggesting that that's a bad... Well, I'm not suggesting that that's necessarily a bad cookbook or a bad thing or people aren't taking away something from it, but that isn't what this is. I mean, a lot of times people buy chefs cookbook just to see how a chef thinks or how a restaurant operates. Yeah, sure, absolutely. But, you know, look, there's a long tradition, and, you know, years ago, Mike, when Michael Batterberry was still alive, he had me like write something about
+
+[1:00:04] this, there's a long tradition in Europe of chefs books that are written by chefs for chefs.
+
+[1:00:08] Not so much here in the U.S. In the US, almost all cookbooks are published, even by like hardcore restaurant chefs. like your hardcore restaurant chef, you know, like our published 4 non-pros. They have to appeal to non-pros. And what that means typically is things get dumbed down. And one of the 1st ones that, you know, that's kind of pejorative way to put it, but, you know, it's like the chef doesn't really want to alter their recipes and doesn't really, like, know what it means to cook at home because they're a chef. And so, like, it's hard it's hard to get that get that balance. One of the 1st cookbooks that broke the American mold, and actually was just like, I'm just going to give you the professional recipes, and if you don't want to soak all your anchovies and milk, then just don't make this recipe. It was French laundry book. Uh, way, way back in the day. Still sells like crazy. Yeah, well, I mean, it was a great book. You know what I mean? I mean, whether or not you, like, are a fan of TK or, or, you know, any of
+
+[1:00:59] this stuff is like, that is, like, they were like, I'm just going to tell you how this thing works. Yeah. But I think this, like, what you're trying to shoot for here is different. You're like, I want you to actually get this result without having to operate like I'm in the French laundry, which
+
+[1:01:15] is or at Del Posto in your case. So it's like, I think it's a different and almost harder task. Yeah, completely. We re-engineered all the all the recipes without dumbing them down. And the reason for doing it? I mean, the real question is why do the work for that is that we felt like Mark's food calms all the foundation of Mark's food comes from very, very traditional, regional, Italian
+
+[1:01:40] cooking, and a lot of that cooking start is sort of passed down through the homes and home
+
+[1:01:45] chefs. I mean, our home cooks, let's say, in the families. So going back. So we're like, well, this is, we should make this work in homes. Like, this is Italian food that's sort of found, the foundation of this
+
+[1:01:56] food is home cooking if you keep going back and back and looking at these regional recipes. So we've got to make this work at home to carry on that tradition in some sense. But also, it's just, you know, like if you go to Del Posto, which I encourage you to do. Uh, you know, everyone there is very, uh, you know, keyed up on you having a positive experience.
+
+[1:02:17] Like the overwhelming sense you get is like a respect for the diner, for the customer. And I think the same things flowing over to the book here. It's like a respect for the person buying the book that they're going to get the information that they need. And to me, really, that's the defining kind of service, uh, and even in back of house, also characteristic of Del Poso. So
+
+[1:02:34] makes that post. Traditional hospitality. Anyway, well, thanks so much for coming, guys. Cooking issues.
+
+[1:02:53] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious
+
+[1:03:22] place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make Farm Fresh Trees and Wreaths available at
+
+[0:08] green markets. For more information, visit Christmas trees and Y.org. I'm Damon Bolte, host of the Speakeasy. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritageradionetwork.org for 1000s more.
+
+[0:31] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you at a live from a British Pizzeria in
+
+[0:40] Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or one o'clock. Uh, on the Heritage Radio Network, joined, as usual, with Nastasio of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Good. Got Dave in the booth. What up? And we brought everybody's favorite person to beat on. Peter Kim. Once again, here, the Spreadhaven vacation. The director slash client of and and short order cook, as it turns out, for the Museum of Squad. Nice. Oh, you guys in your freaking dish. Oh my god. Like, these guys, Nastasia, right or wrong. They're like, they live in that old school old school office world. It's like literally 10 people working in this big kind of like law space. In one space. and they still no walls. No walls, giant space, and they still have the same, like, weird office arguments. Over email. We copied on them. someone didn't put away their sauerkraut. It's like, like, you think you're trying to get away from like offices to get away from that. I've noticed the spoons are stacking up. And I'm like copied on these emails. Well, here's the funny thing, Dave. Here's the funny thing, Dave. You don't read any emails that come in, including ones that are pertinent to
+
+[1:53] your business interest. That's because whenever I get you respond to the what you call inane dish
+
+[1:59] emails. You just send me these little needling messages being like, kill me, period. That's the reason, folks, that I don't respond to email. If I only got 3 emails a day and they were important, then I would respond to them. But instead, like, whenever I glance, every once in a while, I never answer emails. Whenever I glance at my emails, it's something incredibly worthless, incredibly worthless. I used to have I'm terrible in meetings people. I used to have this tactic in meetings where, remember this is the French culinary anastasia? meetings, like people would start just saying inane things, just crazy and like wasting
+
+[2:35] time, and I would just start going, and you would just start like tapping your hands on the table, and they were like, what is he doing? He's like, this is what this is what you were doing to me. You're hurling our time into the ether. Hurrying like, I'm a firm believer, people, in never responding to emails. Now I might take it too far, but I think everyone responds to emails too often. There's a there's a mental cost to switching back and forth between tasks all the
+
+[2:58] time. Maybe this is why people don't ever get anything done. Well, there's something called teamwork, Dave, that requires something called
+
+[3:05] communication, and it either has to happen by phone, email, or in person. It's 2 different schools of thought. You're saying, wait, wait, wait, wait. Peter, what Peter is saying is that that nothing ever got done before the age of
+
+[3:18] email because there was no team building back before they had email conversations back when back when back when everyone, yes, where you say, you know what? Like, you don't really need to meet every 30 seconds, which is what email is. An email is a meeting every 30 seconds, right? What you, and it's totally inefficient because you're like, 0 my god, what do they say? Do I have to get angry? How many people don't have the CC, and then you have to craft a response. And then they have response to the response and so on and so on. This is how Hillary got her classified email issues, by the way. like 18 levels of response. I don't care. It's a truth. Like, these are, like, long email things. And like, What's the point? What's the point? especially people. They all work in the same box. Walk over, walk over. emails, theirs is a reason for emails. Literally people. But these ones are crazy. Literally, they, like, I can reach over. should I choose to, which you know I never would. I can reach over and touch Nastasia on the shoulder. However, at MoFed, they would send an email from me to Nastasi, that's how it would freaking work. Literally, I could be staring you in the eyes and be sending you an email. Maybe they want to have it on record. Well, so much hate in... to like, so it never happens again. sauerkraut, spoons, so let's... Dude, I have never worked in an office where you don't have some of that. sort of day-to-day crap. I mean, you just have to. You don't, actually. Yeah, you do. You actually do not. You could choose to say, you know what, people? I am looking at my email 4 times a day. And that's it. Four times a day. Realize that after I respond to you, I am not going to see it for another quarter of a day. That probably wouldn't cut down on the flow of useless email though. Uh, well, it would cut down on, not the ones, not the external useless emails, but once people didn't weren't in the position where they felt like they were going to get a response within 10 seconds,
+
+[5:04] that it wasn't going to be like, bidding. you're like, oh, yeah, oh, wait, oh, oh. You're changing hearts and minds. Here's the other thing, dude. Have you ever like, this is especially true in kitchen, in offices where I'm not saying that offices are bad, but in offices where like productivity is
+
+[5:17] punished and it's more about like the amount of emails you send that determine whether you're a good human being or
+
+[5:22] not? In kitchens, this becomes a nightmare because you can't actually sit and have a real conversation with someone because they're constantly being interrupted by
+
+[5:29] texts from other venue. No one can actually, there's a huge chunk of people that just can't get anything done because they can't focus for 30 seconds to a minute and a half on the actual important crap that's being told to them
+
+[5:42] live and instead are focused on freaking text. Nastasia, you've seen this a 1000000 times, right? Especially once people are bored at work. Like once you get people who are bored at work, then all they do is focus on their texts. That's it. Yeah, so in your mind, there was a golden age when things got done that stopped around the 90s. No, I'm saying like all these tools are great. It's just they're being used by people, uh, like in a knucklehead way. I'm saying all these tools are useful. I'm just advocating, like I say, not being constantly plugged into something that can pull
+
+[6:15] your attention. Maybe you have a job out there, people, that doesn't require you to think, but if you have to think, then being pulled from conversation to
+
+[6:23] conversation every 20 seconds is not helpful. It's just not freaking helpful. It's like with cooking. It's like when you're cooking in a kitchen. My wife always says, why is it, you know, what is it that's like, what is it about the kitchen that, you know, you think is hard for people to
+
+[6:37] get? It's hard for people to stay in the flow of the kitchen because they get bored and they get sucked out into other
+
+[6:42] things and then they lose track of what they're doing mental, their mental flow of what they're doing in the kitchen. And so, yeah, they burn the sauce. They don't take the thing out of the freaking oven. They don't have the timings work out right when the stuff comes out of the oven. Because they're a bad cook, well, maybe, but maybe part of the reason they're a bad cook is that they're not focusing on the flow of what happens in the kitchen. Good kitchen work is supposed to have a little bit of that in the flows, then like, I'm working, and this is what I'm doing. I'm not doing some other garbage, right? I'm doing this. No? Yeah, anyway, whatever. Had to relate it back to the cooking. So, uh, Peter, why are you here to harangue me about something? And Mason accomplice, I think. Yeah. No, you were going to harangue me about something. It's going to keep coming. Yeah. You're not learning anything? Not promoting just here to just here to needle you, man. All right. So now I'm owed some needling. Yeah. So I just got back, not really. I got back at the end of last week, but I haven't done the show since from Chef Steph's 1st time I visited Chef Steph's in Seattle, went to Jamie Boudre's
+
+[7:48] Bar Cannon. very nice. Nice place. I think they might have just won some award or something. I don't know. Great bar. The most ridiculous liquor list I have ever seen in my life. Like the crazy, like, they, like, they can't print the liquor list because it'd be like a phone book. So it comes out in like iPad form. To give you an example, they, I don't know, I don't know, I don't really understand this, but they have a whole bunch of like super, super old whiskeys.
+
+[8:15] like super old, like from like the 1800s, that are like $1,400 a shot ass, the waiter. I was like, is that very good? That that whiskey. And he was like, no. He's like, but when someone like, some like, you know, Microsoft or some like, you know, tech dude shows up there and makes a giant
+
+[8:30] deal. He's like, what do you got? that's really expensive. And then once you spend $1,400 each, this guy bought $2,800 worth of whiskey, 2 shots, $2,800 worth of whiskey. Uh, you're gonna love that crap. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the advantage of charging so much for something. The customer is inherently going to like it because. too much cognitive dissonance, if you feel like, oh, that was not really exciting. Right. You would have to be so rich. Like, you would have to be, you would have to be billionaire rich to be able to be like, you know
+
+[8:58] what? I can be, uh, I can be entirely objective about this $1,400 ounce and a half poor of liquor that I just drank. Yeah, they have, so... Is that the place that has a giant wall of bottles? Is that it? Uh, I wasn't facing a giant wall of bottles. And I didn't look around because that's the kind of guy I am. They have really tall ceilings. I'm that guy that like walks in, sits down, just stares down at his napkin. couldn't miss this. Right, Nastasia? So annoying. Were you by yourself? I was not by myself. I was with a chef steps crew. Yeah. And you're, well, he's part of the chef's group, your boy Michael Napkin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and so I said, how did I say Nastasia still loves you? Yeah, the only vegetarian Nastasia likes. I said, I said you're still enjoying his cookbook. I said, you know, maybe you should write another vegetarian cookbook. Yeah, right? Well, the only vegetarian that Stas likes is not really that much of a distinction because there's how many people that she likes. Yeah, but if there's 5 people that she likes, and only one of them is vegetarian. I guess you're right. Like, not really much of a yeah. All right, fair. Fair. So anyway, I went out to chef steps and demonstrated the spins all they seem to they seem to enjoy it. Did a Facebook live, which I still don't really understand. I don't like, I don't really understand his Facebook live. I think it's very new. Yeah, it's not that new. It's like 6 months ago. Yeah, it's very new. Why would I want that? Because people can text in as you're doing it? Actually, that's true. People ask questions. It is useful. It's kind of like this, but with people. I'm just joking people. I'm just kidding with you guys. We did a Facebook live about the sort of dish situation that Mof had the other day. Dating? Yeah, yeah. All 5 of you chimed in? So, anyway, so during that, like one, and I visited Kenji, Kenji, over in San
+
+[10:41] Francisco, saw his digs, did the centerfuge demonstration for him. Here's what, by the way, we're talking about the spinsaw, which is the new centrifuge I'm selling on modernistpantry.com forward slash. I'm not supposed to say forward slash. sorry. Just slash. It's just slash. It's freaking forward slash. Back when I was a kid. When I was a boy, we had backslashes. We had former slashes. Now it's just slash. So, uh, modernistpantry.com slash uh, spins all. We got to sell, frankly, we got to sell more of these freaking synergy just people. I think there's a lot of people out there. don't know why they I mean, not you people. If you're listening to this, right? I mean, you know why you want a centrifuge. But I think a lot of people just don't get why they would want a centrifuge. They only think of these modernist kind of techniques. And I'm like, just like being able to make strawberry juice all
+
+[11:22] day all night is like enough for me or banana Justino or any one of them. you get one, Peter? Yeah, it's, I mean, it's like exponentially cheaper than any other alternative or something like that. Hey, Dave, we actually got a question about the spins all in the chat room. They want to know what would happen if you put molasses in it. Molasses is pretty much a solution. So I don't think it would do much to it. Um, so that's another thing. is like most people, what I realize is, is that I've used a centrifuge for so many freaking years, that like, I, um, I kind of know what a centrifuge is going to do and what it's not going to do. But when Kenji said, what should I spend in this? And there was a bunch of responses to him about what we should try to spin in the centerfuge. I kind of realized that people don't really understand what a centrifuge at this kind of
+
+[12:06] level is for. Like, for instance, it's not for clearing meat stocks, although I'm trying to think of a way to do
+
+[12:13] it. It's not for that. It's, you know, if you take milk, if you take milk with cream, yeah, I can, you know,
+
+[12:21] unhomogenized, I can separate it out. But, and if you take cream, I can make butter. But like molasses, like I say, is a solution. There might be some crap floating in the molasses that I can get out, but I'll give you some examples of stuff to do. Uh, like, let's see, with some sugar stuff. So I did a, uh, someone wanted me to do chocolate milk and I'm like, I don't think I'm going to get a lot out of that. So I wanted to do, I did chocolate cream. I made like a cocoa cream, and then with some sugar in it, and then I spun it, hoping to get cocoa butter, not cocoa butter, but chocolate butter, you know what I mean? And what happened was I got an amazing, I got a triple separation. So I got like a chocolate buttermilk, which I used to make pancakes. It was very good. Then I got a very light chocolate butter because basically the only chocolate that was in it was in the whey that was in it. And then I got a hyper smooth kind of like cocoa paste, like Nutella, but totally smooth and liquid, which was pretty awesome as well, because it had been totally
+
+[13:16] hydrated. Uh, and uh, I ended up mixing those back together to make like a chocolate butter, but like a chocolate compound butter. It was really good. So you could do that kind of stuff or like Greek yogurt. Like I could take yogurt. I can remove some of the whey. then you do that, you know, and you get like a, you can either do Greek yogurt or like a yogurt cheese, which I
+
+[13:34] made. So it does that on that kind of dairy, but it's not, it's or for like clarifying juices, but it's not for like breaking stocks. It's not going to take things that are that don't ever naturally settle or break on their own and make them break.
+
+[13:47] You know, it will spin blood down. I'm told it will spin blood down because it's at the same speed. I got a lot of people asking me about that, I guess, to fortify blood sausages, or whatever, and that will work. But anyway. Here's a question for you, man. When was the last time there was a sort of previously inaccessible technology because of the price point that
+
+[14:06] like seriously dropped like this? The circulator went from about $2,000. The immersion circulator went from about $2000 in 2002 to about $800 in 2005.
+
+[14:21] Uh, mostly as a result, the Philip Preston, um, just wanted more chests to have them, and so the price got dropped because when only labs were buying it, labs were relatively
+
+[14:31] inelastic uh, market. They're just going to pay whatever you ask. And so when the chef market kind of got big, you know, Philip knew the price needed to drop. So that was kind of the 1st big price drop. $800 is still relatively expensive, but that was the kind of the 1st explosion in into the market. And that's kind of, you know, I'm taking a bigger price jump there with the spins all. So I'm going from an 8 to $10,000 machine down to like a $1000 machine. So I'm trying to hit some of those early adopters who would have gotten an immersion circulator back
+
+[14:59] into $800 days. Um, then we pop, soupy pot, bam, uh, who was one of my interns, came out with uh, the Nomaku, and the Nomaku was, to my knowledge, uh, the 1st commercially available sub $500 uh,
+
+[15:14] circulator. And then I think it came in at like 300 and something originally. And then Philip came out with one and then, you know, a whole host of others have really driven the circulator market way
+
+[15:24] down until now it's hard to get someone to pay more than $250 for a circulator.
+
+[15:30] And then you have people adding like chef steps with jewel is added the app and the Wi-Fi capability. And so that market is really expanding. I mean, that's the one. That's where a previously inaccessible thing has really gotten into, um, into kitchens. Because, and the reason it doesn't happen very often is that there's not many technologies that are taken from other realms that have like instant and obvious kitchen applications.
+
+[15:55] Um, like the, you know, blender was like they have laboratory blenders, but like the blender was intended to be a piece of kitchen equipment. Um, so, uh, you know, and other things are always going to be inaccessible, like puffing guns
+
+[16:08] or like uh, extruders or, you know, pasta extruders and things like this. Although pasta extruders are becoming more popular, but they're at like the 3 and $4000 level. So it's, it's, there aren't going to be that many, uh, there aren't that many things that I've experimented with where I'm like, yeah, that needs to be really popular.
+
+[16:27] Immersion circulator was once. People used to say, which one of these technologies is really going to make a big deal. They asked me back in, you know, 04, and I was like, oh, the emerging circulator, clearly, you know, and it's one of the very few things I've been right about, you know, in terms of future
+
+[16:41] predictions. And so, uh, and the other one that I've always wanted, I want to, I want to roto that to be more
+
+[16:48] accessible to people, but the, but the reason I'm not building a roto app is that although we could make a more accessible roto app, it still is not going to have the wide range of use for people that, um, a centrifuge would, just because it's always going to, no matter how, uh, you know, cheap I make a roto app, no matter how
+
+[17:08] brakeproof I make a roto app, no matter how bulletproof it is, it's always
+
+[17:12] going take like a lot of skill to operate one well and it's gonna take like a fairly steep learning curve, whereas with a centrifuge, once you learn how to use it, you're just pumping product out. And so, um, yeah, and also like a road of app, no matter what is going to require chilling, so you're either going to have to bust through a bunch of
+
+[17:31] ice or you're going to have to bust through, uh, you know, buy a chiller, you know, it needs heat,
+
+[17:36] needs all this, needs all this ancillary stuff, like a lot of power. And so, um, yeah, uh, you know, I always thought the centrifuge is the item that should be available in the kitchen. But what it really needed is someone to design one for the kitchen. Um, anyways, but we're not selling enough of them. So if you actually ever want there to be a culinary centrifuge, who knows, maybe in, you know, 10 years, if the market or five, 6 years, if the market opens up more, maybe they'll eventually be a $300 centrifuge, who
+
+[18:03] knows? You know what I mean? Or, you know, a $200 centrifuge. But, um, we're just, Nastasia and I simply aren't making enough of them. Well, right now we're making 0 because we haven't been able to pay for the tooling or
+
+[18:12] the production run, but yeah, if you don't buy it, we won't make it. If I may, I'll say that I have the luck slash misfortune of working with you about as much as anybody else.
+
+[18:25] But I will say that, yeah, I mean, I can vouch for the fact that Dave puts a ridiculous amount of time and thought into this thing. So, um, if there's anybody who could do it, I mean, really. is the only product I really like. Really? That's because also you hate having to run a normal centrifuge too. It's big... Yeah. Um, like the, the, like, I'm very thankful that this is not on the list of things Nastasia will never touch again because the list grows every, every day.
+
+[18:52] So not about my centrifuge, but so because I'm working on the
+
+[18:57] centrifuge, I'm getting a lot of tweets in about this coffee machine, have you heard of it? Spin, spin. And so it's a centrifugal coffee machine. It's actually something I've been interested in. So what spin does is, they don't show you the inner workings or the guts of it, but what it is, is it's got a bunch of like, you know, application hoo-ha attached to it. Uh, you know, you can like make a coffee while you're on the road so that by the time you get home, it's cold and ruined, if that's what you want to do. I'm kidding. But, uh, or you can wake up and you, you could tell Alexa. Is it to Alexa or Alexis? What's the name of that? Alexa. Alexa? Is that a real human name or is it name that because it's not a real human name? I don't know. Anyway, Alexa, blew me some coffee. And so the spin, like, well, listen, the Alexa will tell the spin. I saw Kenji, by the way, turn on his immersion circulator like that. He was like, he's like, Alexa. He doesn't talk like that. He's like, Alexa, turn on my jewel. And like, and the jewel, like, turned on and started running. He doesn't talk like that anymore. Wait, so it's connected to every single appliance with what, Bluetooth? I think it can, I think Alex is just on your network, and so it can probably do a Bluetooth enabled device or a wired wireless device or even a
+
+[20:00] wire device. I think it's just a question of, I don't know how it works, to be honest. Hopefully there aren't that many people named Alexa. don't have one. Yeah. Do you remember the Wizard of Oz? Remember the Wizard of Oz? Like when he's like taking off and like Toto jumps and she goes out to get Toto and they're like, come back. He's like, I can't. I don't know how it works. Remember that? That's like one of my favorite, like, Wizard of Oz lines. But I don't know where I got in that. So anyway, so people ask me about this spin. So what it does is, it grinds whole beans and then presumably puts the, presumably because I don't know, puts it into the, into a basket dry, spins it up, thereby, like, evening and, like, you know, pseudo-tamping the coffee grounds down, and then introduces the hot liquid to the basket while it's spinning, and
+
+[20:41] then generate, because of the force. The theory is it generates the equivalent of a certain amount of pressure. So by altering the speed at which the basket rotates, it can produce something that is espresso
+
+[20:51] like or drip coffee like. Now, a lot of people on the Internet are like, that won't work. And and people have asked me, do you think that will work? And the truth is, I have no way to know because I haven't tested it, right? So, I will say that there is no way, I believe, it's going to produce something exactly like espresso and here's why. When you were when you were making a puck, an espresso puck, right? You're basically, you're trying to create a hydraulic puck that, you know, compresses extremely evenly, you then saturate that puck, the puck kind of inflates, and as you force water through it, the fines migrate to the bottom, increasing theoretically, I
+
+[21:29] guess the hydraulic pressure, but at the same time, you're decreasing the amount of solids left, so your rate of water goes through faster. Anyway, it's like that. When you are spinning a basket and letting the water in at the same speed, your compacting pressure is the same as your theoretical liquid pressure
+
+[21:46] walking through. Now an espresso pug. Clearly you're tamping with much less force than you are putting water through. So it's the equivalent of like maybe £20 of force over the entire disk of coffee puck versus 150 PSI, you
+
+[22:01] know, of the water pressure coming into it. So clearly there's a differential there that you can play with with espresso that you're not going to be able to play with with the spin. Um, The other thing is, I mean, that's that's kind of the main thing. I mean, so it's going to be different. Also, in espresso, as soon as the pressure is released, it stops. This is actually going to pull more stuff out of the coffee grounds because of the
+
+[22:25] certifical force, then you would get if you just forced water under
+
+[22:30] pressure. It's a different kind of a situation. Now, I did just as a test, take some espresso grinds, mix them with hot water, spin them in the
+
+[22:37] centrifuge for 30 seconds. I got or minute. I got all of the grounds back out. I tasted the coffee. It tasted fine because I wasn't pushing it through. I didn't get any aeration, and so I didn't have any of the body that you would have in a normal espresso cup. It had some of the espresso flavors that you would normally have, and it had 0 grinds in it because, you know, I was able to spin it fast enough. But, I mean, the answer is, I don't know. I'm willing to test out a spin machine if someone wants us to test it out, but I don't know. I mean, it could be a way to do individual servings well as opposed to like those cups. I've never had a cup-based machine that I thought was the greatest thing on earth. You ever had a cup? The worst. Not just bad, the worst. See, a lot of times, uh, Peter, what people are focusing on when they're making those single service things is, is this, and this is a, like not the way I focus in life, but this is a valid
+
+[23:25] thing. Is this single serving better than what the average
+
+[23:29] Jokomo will make given a system that they have to control? So if you're dealing with like the EC pods, for instance. The question is, is this EC pod as good as the greatest espresso that you could make? No, even the guys at, uh, uh, sorry, Ely. I mean, say ECL type, Ely. Is the Ely pod as good as the best espresso someone can make? No, it is not. And they will admit that. But is it better than what 90% of the people will make? Yeah. And so if you're one of those 90% of the people that's going to make a garbage espresso, then the Ely pod is a good solution for
+
+[24:06] you, except for the sustainability and the fact that you're hurling all this plastic into the ether. And the spin, theoretically, if you like the coffee it
+
+[24:13] made, is going from bean to bean to cup.
+
+[24:16] So it's not going to have any of those sustainability issues. The Brevel, by the way, makes the, with the automatic grinding stuff, which I was very dubious of, does make a cup better than about
+
+[24:29] 90, what 90% of people would do. I just think there are so many easy ways to make good coffee that, okay, maybe not espresso,
+
+[24:35] but like, I don't see why you'd want to use one with machine. I don't like the word pour over. No. Right? What about an arrow press? And say it with an Australian accent? I can't. Can you? You hate you have an anti-Australian accent thing, though. What about Olivia Newton John's old access? She's okay. Actually, gooseneck things annoy me. What? It just seems really precious when you're pouring the water over the
+
+[24:58] pour over. I understand a rationale. Why
+
+[25:01] do people say precious all the time? Well, because Peter used to work for precious moments. Well, that's okay. I mean, there's the greatest moment of my life is when Peter brought a picture of himself in like a precious moments, like furry
+
+[25:15] outfit, and it was not some sort of cosplay thing. It was his parents made him dress up for the Hallmark store where they used to work. Anyway. Okay. Brandon wrote it about carbonation. Hey, Bushwick crew. I'm trying to rebuild my carbonation rig with interchangeable adapters. One adapter for the liquid bread carbonator cap, which is the carbonator cap of choice, people, and one for a direct injection into an easy
+
+[25:37] whipper into the whipped cream whipper, I hope, because I don't really like the soda ones
+
+[25:42] for really just all you need is the whipped cream one. I have not had any luck getting direct injection from CO tank to work a CO2 tank to work properly. I've tried pressing a small barbed fitting around the EC puncture valve and some CO2 gets in, but not much. Does this UC puncture valve have to be pressed down for proper airflow. Would love any suggestions on how to get this working. Thanks, Brandon. Okay, Brandon, you're in a little bit of a pickle here. Here's why. You did not need to press on that valve to get it to work. However, when you're putting a cartridge onto that thing, what happens is the cartridge gets punctured, pushes against that rubber grommet, and is injected into the EC under high pressure, because remember, that cartridge contains either nitrous or
+
+[26:25] CO2 at a normal, you know, temperature in the atmosphere of roughly 800 psi. So it's shooting in there and it's shooting in a particular weight of CO2 or of nitrous, a weight, not a
+
+[26:39] pressure. And so because of that, the check valve doesn't have to be have a particularly low what they call cracking pressure. And so there's a good 5 PSI, I haven't measured it in many years, but it's a good 5 PSI of
+
+[26:51] over-pressure, uh, required to get any flow at all uh, through um, that EC valve. What I used to do in the day was, I would build an adapter that actually had the, the cheapest, easiest way to do it. If you don't have access to a machine shop or anything like that, is to take your barb thing, push it against
+
+[27:11] the thing gently, then screw, like put some release
+
+[27:15] agent. Please put a boat ton of release agent. Like, do not allow epoxy to get onto your actual EC, uh, whipper, cut off. you know, say I'm talking about the thing that you screw the chargers on with, cut that off, and then embed the thing,
+
+[27:29] embed your bar fitting and all that into it and seal the top with epoxy. This way, when you screw it down tight, you have a fitting that can screw and unscrew onto it easily. But it's never going to be ideal because of the pressure drop you're getting across that. So if you're trying to set your tank to have the correct pressure for carbonation with a normal carbonator cap, which is a free flow situation, you're never going to get the same amount when you have to force it through a through that check
+
+[27:54] valve, and that's going to become even more apparent when you're trying to shake and get that last little bit of carbonation in because right
+
+[28:02] there, you're driving carbonation in under what is essentially equilibrium pressure.
+
+[28:06] So it's difficult. The way that I did it, when I really wanted to carbonate in EC bottles from a tank, and I did, because when I opened Booker Index, originally, that's how I thought I was going to do
+
+[28:17] it, I took an old EC whipper head. You can get them on eBay real cheap that are plastic. They used to make plastic whipper heads for their non-commercial for their home line, but the screw threads are the same. I then cut everything off of that thing that I wanted. Um, I bought like a, you know, screw in valves. I tapped. I put basically Bondo on it, tapped it with a drill and a tap, and then I cast it in, I cast it 1st in silicone to make a
+
+[28:48] mold, and then did a bunch of food grade polyurethane cast to make a bunch of carbonation heads that fit directly onto an
+
+[28:56] EC whipper. They used EC brand, gasket seals, et cetera, et cetera. And that's actually what I was going to use to open the bar with. But, you know, it takes a little bit of work, but, I mean, okay, it takes a lot of work, but if you're
+
+[29:07] going to do it for a living, it's, and you really want to do it, it's worthwhile. Anyway. Did I answer that question? Yes. Yes. Julian writes in about sous vide sauce. Hey, y'all, I'm writing to ask about making sauces with the liquid left in low temperature sous vide bags. I'd like to use this to make a simple pan sauce just mixed with stock or red wine, but the delicious sous vide liquid quickly
+
+[29:29] curdles whenever I heat it further to reduce it, leaving my reductions with weird textures. Beyond weird, it's freaking gross. It looks like, well, we'll get into it in a second. It is my best bet to curdle it and strain out the curds. Yes. That was easy. But why don't you take another 10 minutes to answer the question? Yeah, is there some way I can prevent the, is there some way I can prevent the protein from curdling or at least get some flavor out of
+
+[29:52] it? Thanks for any tips, Julian. I don't know actually. Not any tips to prevent the curdling that you would really want to do. Like, you could probably very heavily salt it or very heavily sugar it. But yeah, the way to do it is to, as soon as it comes out, just break it really quickly and then strain it. And, like, it's just, it's just a protein that's in
+
+[30:11] solution, and, um, it's never been raised at a temperature that makes it, um, that makes it
+
+[30:17] curdle, and so it comes out and that's it. Um, you know, the same way that if you cook a fish too high, like that liquid will come to the
+
+[30:25] top and then once the heat hits it, it goes white, it turns white. It's that same sort of stuff. It's the stuff that when you start heating, floats up to the top as ponds gum. When you're cooking meats, and you gotta get rid of it. AK family meal. Yeah, yeah, family meal. Well, you know that story that Alex Corn Shelley tells, right? Eating the raft. I think about it. I look at it like eating the raft. So anyway, so yeah, so the quickest, easiest way around it is to just heat it and then strain it. And as a side note, a lot of times when you do that, the liquid will actually
+
+[30:56] self clarify because the proteins as they coagulate will hold onto some of the cloudy bits. Speaking of self- clarified, did I talk about self-clarifying cordials? Yes. All right. There you go. Don't need to talk about it again. Done. So there you have it. Now, the problem with that, of course, is you got to lose some of the product when your curdles are not a lot left. So, I don't know whether you want to add some product to it, then curdle it, then strain it. We should take a break. Take a break? Take a break and come right back with cooking issues.
+
+[31:37] Ever wonder where your Christmas tree came from? Now you don't have to. New York State grown Christmas trees are now available in New York City. Trees grown on farms here in New York State are harvested just a few days before arrival to the city. Trees cut close to home, stay fresh longer, and trees cut close to home travel less, which reduces fuel consumption of delivery vehicles. Did you know that buying a real tree helps to sustain agriculture in New York
+
+[32:06] State by supporting local farmers and keeping important open space in agriculture production? The Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York is partnering with
+
+[32:15] Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at green markets in Brooklyn,
+
+[32:20] Queens, and Manhattan. So when you shop local this holiday season, you can include the tree in that list, for more information and a full list of locations, visit Christmas trees and y.org.
+
+[32:39] And we are back. So, Christmas Tree Farms, Pistasia, do you know how long it takes to grow a Christmas tree? No, 7 years. Really? Yeah, it's about 7 years. At least so I'm told in Oregon. I know a guy who was a Christmas tree farmer in Oregon, and he was like, yeah, it's about 7 years for the trees to get fully mature. I have to say, it always weirds me out to see right after Christmas how everybody just chucks their trees. What are they
+
+[33:05] going to do with it? First of all, 1st of all, you know, I wish we had the Christmas tree farmers in New York here because you were providing jobs for someone. You don't mind wiping your butt with paper and flushing it down the toilet. Instead, you get enjoyment from a tree. It makes your whole house smell nice. It provides jobs. It's like low impact farming that you can do on a travel land. Did you get one? A tree? Did you get one from New York State? I don't have a tree. Why do you not have a tree? I saw a hipster walking down a tree with something that looks theoretically nice, but is not. Here's what they did. They had a big piece of tree that they cut a disk out of. They drill the hole in the center. Then they took their Charlie Brown tree, right? And they shaved off the bottom of the trunk like a
+
+[33:49] cork so it fit into the hole in the tree. But this is a far cry from the old time, old time. You had that little wooden cross and you nailed it from underneath. Now, that's okay because you're not shaving off all of the xylum. How the hell is this little tree supposed to drink if you shave off all of its
+
+[34:09] xylons? Sad. So sad. So history. It's such a history thing. I'm going to have something that looks like old, old school, but like it's like, it's like, it's more dead than dead. See, a tree is basically a cut flower. I mean like, you know what I mean? You have to treat it like a cut flower. And when you sit there with someone hand you cut flowers, you'd be like, oh, thanks. and then take the stem and crush it between your fingers. Depends on, I know, you're the master of, what's the book, Nastasia? Uh, the, the grand ouis flower decorating book. Nastasia is a firm believer. She hates almost everybody. Have you ever been to the restaurant? Yeah. Was it good? But anyway, they're flower decorating at the... Is it lagren we? Frogs are feminine? Yes. Okay. So it's La Grenouille, apparently they have like one of the great. Okay, do the, say it, say it, X. Now say it, now say it with African fresh accent. Oh, geez. Do it. You're the one that made me do it. Oh my god, you're not bringing me in. where you learned French. Yeah, I know. So you're... What, that's not funny? That's that's not funny. That's true. He learned French initially with an African accent. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. How does that sound? Well, just instead of the ho, you do a roll dar instead. Dave's just waiting expecting. not going to do it. Peter's not gonna do it. He does a good he does a good accent anyway. But the, what were we talking about? So flower decorating, that's like, that's, you actually like it. But it treats every different flower in a different way, the way it's supposed to be treated. Anyway, yes, back to Christmas tree farms. Do you remember the one of the last things we did, the 1st things we did for Booker and Dax, one of the last things we did was Nastasia and I at the French
+
+[35:43] culinary. Nastasia, I went down and got a Christmas tree and they're like, this one looks better. like, don't care. Don't care. We're just just smelling the Christmas trees and figure out which one we like to smell of, took it back up to the French culinary suit and then completely denuded it of needles.
+
+[35:56] We just took the Christmas tree and just instantly stripped all the needles off of
+
+[36:00] it and people were like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Shut up. And then we like distilled the entire tree. Yeah. We sat there and distilled the entire tree. Threw a roto app and then we made like 1500 pine drinks for MTV.
+
+[36:13] Remember that? Oh, yeah. It was like MTV and we did all of those pine things. And that's actually where I was using those easy bottles that I made. So angry at that event. I don't remember. I mean, that was the one where I didn't even... No, that's no, that's the event where, remember, all I did was shake. We had one fun. We had one person who batched one person who
+
+[36:31] I uh, who added ice to the uh, EC's. I shook all night long and another person had poured because we were just, there was just boom, boom, boom. And we were carbonating on the minute. Remember that? 1500 drinks. Ridiculous. 500 people, God knows how many drinks. Yeah. Yeah, Christmas trees. fun. Uh, so our auction went for $2,550. Oh, nice, good. That is very nice. We're not going to call out who bought it, but we eagerly
+
+[37:02] wait. You coming? and sitting down and cooking. Remember, though, when you show up at cooking issues, you're gonna get dragged into the conversation. It's just the way it works. And also... Well, no, I mean, we're nice to guests, I think, except Peter. And we also like to thank during the fundraising drive. These people for supporting Heritage Radio Network on behalf of cooking issues program. Peter, Grego, Carlos, Zachary, Thomas, Dad, Ko. Oh, like him. Remember, he bought us the modernist cuisine book. He's down in, where is he, Texas? Texas I think. Nick and Mark. Anyway, thanks so much, folks, for supporting cooking issues in Heritage Radio Network. Next, we got Matt, Cholic writes in from Seattle, Dear Nastasi, and Dave. Thanks for the show. My question covers cocktails, acidic things like lime juice, orange juice, and even some sodas tend to really upset my stomach. I'm a big fan of margaritas, though. I mean, who isn't really? Margaritas are delicious. I mean, as long as you drink alcohol. margarita is delicious. Do you like margaritas, Peter? Love margaritas. Nastasia? Okay. What do you suggest? My question has 3 parts. What do you suggest I use to bring lime juices pH up to 7 so I can see what cocktails taste like with lime
+
+[38:12] flavor, but without the sour? Baking soda comes to mind, but I suspect that will compromise a drinks flavor. It will. And by the way, you're never going to get it all the way up to seven, I don't think. I'm guessing sour is pretty essential to the drink's taste, but only loosely correlated with the actual acidity, such that there are substances, such that there are
+
+[38:28] substances packing equivalent sourness to lime juice that leave a drinks pH closer to neutral. Any thoughts of some options? And finally, do you have any ideas for a solid lemon lime juice substitution that I could request at a bar, asking for a margarita, shaken with an
+
+[38:41] anacid tablet seems unworkable for multiple reasons? I tried making myself just a quantro, tequila, and simple syrup drink, but it wasn't particularly
+
+[38:50] good. No, I don't imagine it would be. Remember, if you are going to reduce the acid. You have to also reduce the sugar by a lot lot. And if you're going to make low acid drinks in general, this is not answering your question, but
+
+[39:01] which I will answer in a minute, but when you're making a drink that doesn't have any acid in it, like an old-fashioned, like typically to add brightness to an old-fashioned,
+
+[39:10] and 1st of all, remember, it has a minimal amount of sugar. So 2 ounce porn and old-fashioned is not very diluted and has about a quarter of an ounce to 3 eighths of an ounce of
+
+[39:17] normal, a 50% simple syrup in it. To add brightness to that. A twist. And the central oil from like either a grapefruit or a lemon or an orange or sometimes a lime, although I'm not a huge fan most of the time of lime
+
+[39:30] twist, that fresh, bright, inherently citrus note of those oils gives you a sense of freshness, which is part of what acidity
+
+[39:40] brings, is a freshness. So you should always start by, if you're going to reduce the acid, if not eliminate the acid, adding
+
+[39:47] twist to things, because that's going to help punch up the brightness. Also, reducing sugar content substantially is going to allow you to use less acid. Anytime you have a high sugar content. You're going to require more acid to bounce it out. So if you were allowed to have minimal amounts of acid, like they're in sodas, like you say, you might want to switch to carbonated margaritas, because carbonated
+
+[40:08] margaritas have less sugar, more water, but less sugar overall, and also less
+
+[40:13] acid, and they're delicious. Um, but what I would not do baking soda, uh, because it's going to make it salty and weird. I would actually try. I was gonna try it myself. But I don't have any left at the house. Sodium citrate. So sodium citrate is a salt of citric acid, but it acts as a buffer. And I did some basic calculation. So the classic margarita spec that we use, has in it about, is about 172 milliliters after it's been shaken and
+
+[40:46] strained and contains about one. 34 grams of acid as citric. It actually a mix of citric and malic. Uh, and that ends up being a malarity of 0.04%, uh, and a
+
+[40:58] titratable uh, acidity of a roughly 0.78. Orange juice, on the other hand, has an acidity of 0.8 of titradable acidity of 0.8. Now, I test it, like, if you go on the online and you look up the pH of something that has a citric acid with a malarity of
+
+[41:18] .04, you get a pH of 2.29. However, orange juice, which has a very, very similar titradable acidity, very similar molarity, has a pH of 3.3 to
+
+[41:28] almost up to four. And the reason the pH is higher is because not all of that citric acid is going to, um, uh, you know, uh,
+
+[41:36] deproted. It's not going to, the word's not coming in my mind. It's not going to turn to acid there. It's not going to actually reduce the pH as much. But anyway, so what you're looking at with a margarita is basically the acidity of orange juice. And so I would just test with orange juice because it's a lot cheaper to test orange juice than otherwise. And I would add to your orange juice for
+
+[41:59] every, like, 172 grams of orange juice. If you add about a gram and a half of sodium citrate, you might increase the sourness, but you're definitely going to also increase the
+
+[42:13] pH. You might be able to knock it up like a whole point, which is a log level, 10 times less acidity. Uh, now, you said that I should recommend a pH uh, meter to you uh, so that you can get one. I don't use them in the bar because I care only about the taste, which is correlated more to titradable acidity and less to pH, but for your case, where you're actually trying to reduce the actual acidity, you get a pH
+
+[42:38] meter. Go ahead and get one. Me telling you to get one helps you get one, get one. The one I use is the XTech. I, pH meter is a little bit of a pain in the butt because you have to change out the sensors and once the sensors dry out, they kind of lose their efficacy. There are some cheaper ones out there now on Amazon that I don't have any experience with. The
+
+[42:56] XTech is not that much more expensive and I know it works. So anyway, there you go. Hey, we got a color online. Oh, never mind. Central well, it's like his name, Twist. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, yeah, um, my name's Arlene, I'm calling from Brooklyn. Actually, it was at Otto a couple weeks ago, and you made these 2 great Italiano
+
+[43:16] Staliamas, so thanks. Um, but I had a question about food mills which you were complaining about last week. Um, so for the holidays, my family makes homemade applesauce. Um, and we like cook down the apples and then throw them in the food mill, skins on. Um, but it's a pain in the ass because the, the skins get stuck under that crank. Right. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts about other ways to make applesauce. Well, that's a good question. And so I just did some, this is kind of, like, related to what you were saying. I just did some experiments with tomato juice and spinning tomato juice to get the paste out of it. And we had this argument with Mark Ladner about food mills and the way he does tomatoes. And it is true that tomato, done through some form of strainer like that, is better. The tomato paste was so much better and the juice was so much better. And I'm sure we get applesauce, it's so much better. I don't know of a good, mean, you could pass it through a tammy, but that's also a pain in the butt. I mean, I could I would just try passing it through a Tammy. Um, do you have a, you know, you can get a big tammy for pretty cheap and then just a plastic scraper and it's got such a larger surface area.
+
+[44:29] I mean, how much applesauce are we talking about? We make like, uh, maybe like a gallon, gallon and a half. So not like a ton. Oh, yeah. get a big salad bowl and a big tammy and then just pass it through with a spatula because you're basically doing that with a food mill anyway. Like, let's not pretend that a food mill is anything worse than an, better than an ineffective scraper on a, on a really crappy tammy that's hard to like open up and clean. You know what I mean? Right. I would go Tammy on that. Now, uh, what I would like to experiment with, but I haven't is there's a bunch of hand crank, um, uh, tomato strainers that are meant for like, you know, old grandma sauce,
+
+[45:08] right? Now I don't know whether they're any good or not. KitchenAid makes a tomato strainer attachment for people that make a lot of tomato sauce.
+
+[45:15] It might also work for applesauce. I don't know. You know, it's designed to let through enough pulp to have like a bodied
+
+[45:22] thing, but to exclude the larger thing. So it's not going to be as fine a grain as something like a, you know,
+
+[45:28] champion, which lets very little through, uh, or even like the Brevel juicer, which lets slightly more pulp through, but it's a
+
+[45:35] strainer. It's meant to let the, you know, most of the particulate through, but exclude like seeds and skins and stuff like that. So I would try also, I would, I would look into whether they're a reasonably priced to try
+
+[45:45] that for a gallon, yeah, and you're not gonna, no one's ever said, oh, I wish I didn't have this
+
+[45:49] Tammy when it comes time to also sit flowers. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, that sounds good. Whereas I've heard everyone be like, I wish I didn't have this freaking food meal because now I feel obliged to use it and it was too expensive to throw away and that's wasteful and I feel like a bad human, right? There's nothing but regrets and food mill land. They're pretty cheap on Amazon now. What, is food mills? Yeah. They're never cheap. Think of your labor. Think of your labor. Value your time. Food bills are garbage. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, let us know. Tweet us back or whatever. Let us know how works. All right, thanks so much. All right, thanks. Oh, you too. I had a Twitter question in on grinding spices. Someone wants to know how do I grind small amounts of spices because, you know, they use the whirly blade spice grinder, like the one that we have to
+
+[46:36] grind. They're going to say what? Marijuana thing. No, I'm actually not because those are good to carry around in your knife kit if you need to grind something on quickly. That's what I use that marijuana grinder for, for grinding spice, you know, that you can carry in your knife kit. But at home, mortar and pestle, man. Mortar and pestle is the way to go. I think everyone forgets like, you know, this era of high tech everything, that a mortar and pestle can take down like a single clove into a fine powder that you can put into anything that you
+
+[47:05] want. And so I don't, I, like, it is a pain in the butt to use a mortar and pestle on really large quantities of things because things kind of slide and pop around and stuff like that, but if you can take a small amount of spice and just go,
+
+[47:16] with the, with the mortar and smash it into a 1000000 pieces, right? That's the way to go Stop using email. That wasn't on email. didn't have. Well, none of that I should take gadry, bring out the mortar and pestle. You should smash your phone with the mortar and pestle. You know. Yeah, Darren writes in about Martini Madness. Hello, it's Darren. The bartender's where I work, uh, were recently given a little speech uh, about and a push to win a competition called Martini Madness in the Sonoma
+
+[47:43] Valley. And although I have nothing to do with it, being a line monkey, I have a few questions regarding the subject. The only 2 rules. Um, oh, my phone just decided not to. Okay. The only 2 rules are that is made with an olive, and also that it uses prohibition brand spirits, which is a company based out of the area. Anywho, I thought long and hard on the olive and the drunkenness responsibly and came up with an idea which requires floating the cocktail, even though I am pretty sure that the clientele are not going to appreciate this entirely.
+
+[48:11] I want to make a sun-dried tomato, orange, and lemon water that has thickened ever so slightly above the average density of vodka around .916. That is a density of vodka, that is true. Uh, whereas, you know, water is one and sugared water is higher than one.
+
+[48:26] Uh, so it allows vodka, which is infused heavily with uh, manzania olive. I like the buttery flavor to easily float above it, topped with a time oil. The thickening also serves as a textural contrast as this pairing is a favorite pasta sauce for my family, and I thought the idea of pulling a straw up through the
+
+[48:42] cocktails you drank, it would be a fun concept. So my question is, would Xanta and gum or a lightly heated gel and low acyl provide a better texture to actually drink while giving the appropriate density to float
+
+[48:52] and infused vodka or do you have a better solution? Um, And this is not exactly radio talk, but I would happily set up a payment plan to purchase a
+
+[48:59] spins all. If that is something that could be set up before or after you reach your target goal,
+
+[49:03] be it lay away or otherwise. I can't justify the cost for personal to potential professional use at this time, but either way, you guys are badasses for bringing such an invention to the market. And if you can do what it says, I can't see why any kitchen wouldn't find a use for it. As we say, verbal bravogram, yeah, from your lips to God's ears there. But I don't know. I haven't thought about it. You know, we'll see what happens in the future. If we get it funded and we actually have them in stock, then you know, we have a lot more, um, a lot more leeway. Now, back, yeah, flexibility, which is not a word Nastasia and I use very often, flexibility. Compromise. What? So let's get back to our question. I wouldn't use Xanthan. Xanthan thickened, like, you could ever so slightly put Xanthan in it, but Xanthan has a very particular look to it, a feeling to it
+
+[49:48] that I, you know, that's not so pleasant. Like, I mean, if you're going to do Xantan, you want to keep it well under a quarter of a percent. A low asyl fluid gel, I think would be your best bet, but it has to be really, really light. Um, Now, I'll have you know that, uh, and I happen to have it. I told you before, some tomato water sitting around in my fridge and I took it out of the fridge and floated some vodka on top of it and just did it on the back of a bar spoon and was able to get a pretty good
+
+[50:16] float. There was some mixing along the line, but, you know, just a good old-fashioned Pousse Cafe technique was enough to float vodka right on top of the tomato water. Okay, so, but if you want to thicken it because you want that textual difference, then I would do low
+
+[50:30] acyl geland. Another thing you can do that doesn't jack the sugar appreciably and you don't want to drink too much of it. You give them the runs is you could hit it with a non-sweet or a low sweetness, sugared, like isomalt or something like that, but it will increase the sweetness. I've done densified cocktails with that or with, you know,
+
+[50:50] low DE, um, glucose syrup because it adds a boatload of density. And you're not actually thickening it, but you're just increasing the density of it, which is, I think, what you want to look
+
+[51:00] at. If you actually want to thicken it, sure, go fluid gel. But if you just want to increase the density, I would go with something like a low DE, like very almost unsweet, almost no sweetness, glucose syrup, or, um, something of that nature, but vodka will float directly on the top of tomato water.
+
+[51:14] And, of course, the oil float on that. You just have to be careful when you pour it, right? That makes sense? Yeah? All right. And we're about to get kicked off the air, but lastly, we had we have nothing else we need to talk about, right? Anthony from Nashville writes saying, hey, Dave, I just wanted to shoot you a quick thanks for speaking out against sexual harassment in the hospitality industry on the show 2 weeks ago.
+
+[51:38] As a longtime kitchen worker. I been witnessed to many acts of casual sexual harassment, sexism, and plain old bullying in the restaurant. Regretfully, I sometimes behave the same way in my ignorant use, so I know how easy it is to not realize or understand that it's wrong.
+
+[51:51] No one should ever be made to feel uncomfortable like that, especially when they go to work. And I think you deliver that message quite clearly and effectively on the show. I know a lot of bonehead cooks who think that cat calling at the hostess and alcohol addiction are just fun parts of being in the pirate crew. A lot of these same guys, as well as many liked them, I'm sure, are frequent listeners of cooking issues and hold you in high regard. So I think it's great that you can use this platform to spread a positive message that hopefully will touch some
+
+[52:15] lives. Thanks and keep up the good work. Anthony from Nashville. And he says, PS, I would be super stoked if book 2 turns out to be the miracle of moisture management, which I doubt it will be,
+
+[52:25] Anthony. I think I know what the next book's going to be about. We could talk about it maybe next week on cooking issues.
+
+[52:37] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, Food Radio Supported by You. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[53:14] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant
+
+[0:15] industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org. Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make farm fresh trees and wreaths available at green markets.
+
+[0:33] For more information, visit ChristmastreesNY.org.
+
+[0:43] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, and she's coming to you live every Tuesday on the Heritage Radio Network from Birchwick, Brooklyn, at Pizzeria, where bird
+
+[0:54] is... Got some special special guests super excited. Got semi-regular. Paul Adams, the freelance now, Paul Adams, the freelance drone slash food master, Paul Adams. That's me. Have, as usual, Mustasio, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Scott? Got Dave in the booth. What up? Nothing. But I'm sure you'll all be excited. Direct from the West Coast, San Francisco, the Twin Peaks mission slash Noey Valley area. Harold Mercury. How you doing, Earl? Pretty well. How about you? Doing well, doing well. So, actually, this is like a first. I think Nastasia might have sent you the questions that you've actually had time to look at the questions beforehand. A couple of them. Yeah. So, like, people will get to see exactly how much better Harold is at this sort of stuff than I
+
+[1:45] am. Colin, your questions for Harold McGee or for myself. Food or not food related too, 718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128. Uh, so before I start in the saga of the uh, spins all, the centrifuge that we're working on, Paul was like, hey, can you do cold brew coffee in in
+
+[2:07] the spins all? And I was like, well, spin all, all. So I'm sure I can. Therefore, yes. Therefore, yes. So we did a test yesterday, which was relatively successful because we were able to do it very
+
+[2:17] quickly, much more quickly than normal. extremely successful. Yes, because you're using espresso grounds, which infuse very quickly, but then you can spin them out in
+
+[2:24] centerfuse, blah, blah, blah. But this morning, as I was, you know, doing another test of it, I wanted to do a much larger quantity. So I was gonna do like, uh, like 2 liters, right? The maximum capacity you could probably do. Paul does 5 to one coffee to water. So, uh, you, you, the maximum you can do is about 400, 3 to 400 grams of coffee uh, in
+
+[2:46] the, in the bucket uh, before, before it'll fill. And so, you know, that limits you to about 2 liters or somewhere in that range of
+
+[2:53] liquid. Yeah. So it can spin it all, but it cannot pump
+
+[2:59] it all. It is not a pumps all. So I have to think of a new technique for doing larger quantities because,
+
+[3:06] oh my god, the coffee grounds are like sludge. They just build up and they settle and, you know, the heavies, the fines keep, you know, float forever. That's the problem. The fines float forever, but the heavies, they go, and like, so it just compacted in my pump tubes and it had to break, so I'm
+
+[3:22] gonna, I have to, thinking of a new technique. This one I'm going to try when I get home today. going to go buy a couple pounds of coffee. Here's what I'm gonna try to do. Get this. I want to put the get this. So what Paul does is he vacuum infuses his cold brew to get a jump on actually getting the liquid into
+
+[3:37] the ground coffee, correct? You do it with a regular garbage food saver, right? Not like a decent vacuum machine or anything. I've tried both Which saver is fine. I have the food saver lid that fits on a mason jar, and I do it in a half gallon mason jar, and it's very easy. Yeah, our half gallon mason jars pressure rated? Are you flirting with death? Flirting. Okay. Well, the food saver's not going to probably suck a hard enough vacuum to kill you anymore. It's not going to shatter that that thing. Although, you know, safety, you know, I must say from safety safe, what you probably should have a mesh net around it or like tape it with electrical tape. Look, glass is always okay until suddenly it is not. It is not. Like, have you noticed that, uh, do you know that that, was I talking to you about this? When I was a kid, right? All the way up until probably the time I was in high school, and definitely if you bought all the older stuff, Pyrex meant what it said, Pyrex, fire, like Rex, glass, like
+
+[4:33] borosilicate, glass. It was clear, not greenish tinged, and you could put that sucker on the stove. They used to sell stovetop, pyrex, you know, boris to look at glass. It's fundamentally lab wear, like a beaker. You supposed to be able to put it over a bunsen breader. It's real because, you know, it doesn't crack as it doesn't expand
+
+[4:50] enough to, I guess, to a crack as it goes up, right? You're familiar with this, right? Harold? Old time PyrexT. You know, I used to have those tea vessels and all this. New Pyrex, you put new Pyrex on a stove, it will explode. It is no longer Boris silicate glass, and some awful human being, some terrible, awful garbage, enemy of quality,
+
+[5:09] Satan mongering bastard, like, kept the name Pyrex on this non-born silicate glass. And when it explodes, it also doesn't explode into pleasant little
+
+[5:19] pieces like, you know, like safety glass wood. It shards out into your kitchen all over your food. Yeah. And uh, and for another thing is that you might not know about glass is that uh, glass can have a lot of built-in uh, stresses in it that, you know, aren't
+
+[5:35] apparent, and the cracks can slowly propagate uh, from, and what happens is as cracks propagate, all of a sudden they can reach a critical point where they propagate extremely quickly.
+
+[5:43] So I remember once in grad school, we had a Pyrex, new variety, this is back when it was relatively new that you couldn't put Pyrex on the stove, and it was sitting on the counter like a day after we had used it and
+
+[5:55] just, boom, exploded and shattered glass all over our kitchen. Yeah. So, uh, I only use them now for cold measuring when you have to see through things, but, uh, yeah,
+
+[6:05] they're they're Satan. They're the devil, and they should be taken to task for what they have done to what used to be a fine old brand name. What do you think? Hear, hear. Yeah. So anyway, so back to the vacuuming. So you vacuum to speed up the cold blue coffee, yes? Yeah, fresh ground coffee is full of CO2. So you pull that out with the vacuum so that liquid can then enter the grounds. Fresh ground fresh roasted. Stale coffee ain't got nothing in it. It's got to be pretty stale. Really? You got to test on it? That's the whole the whole point on stealing, right? Is it get, but that's what's like staling, presumably, as you no longer have a positive pressure of CO2. You get more oxygen in, which causes rancidity, which is presumably where the cardboard flavor comes from. Harold. I mean... So, I mean, like anything else, it probably always CO2, but there's like it probably is one of these. I'm making a ski jump shape with my hand, you know, going down like this. So it's always some. Yes. But you're probably the most at the, at the get go. Like, you ever, you ever pulled an espresso shot with coffee that you, what you have, because you're a roaster. You ever pull espresso shot right after you roast it and you get that insane like insane. you, you don't, you're not, you hate crema, right, Paul? anti-krema person, aren't you? I love crema. Who's the anti-crema? A lot of people don't like crema. Are you an anti-crema person, Harold? No, you know those people, though. No, no. I've never met an antique crema. Chris Young, anti-cremist. Anti-cremist. Yeah, yeah. Well, because a lot of the, like, some of the more bitter compounds are some of the stuff that gets, like, into that emulsion and float up to the top of an espresso thing, right? So I think people are against kind of that and they prefer the flavor of the stuff underneath and we can run some tests. Next time you're over, I'll get my micropipe pet and we'll fraction based on height in the coffee, right when it's hot, right? We can do this. But I think it's slightly different when you use hyper fresh beans. And a lot of people used to tell you not to use hyperfresh beans because they didn't like that, that off guesses, but I think it tastes good. I like it. So anyway, so then so then you let it sit and then you strain, but you use coarse groundcloth. How long does it take you? I use fairly fine ground coffee. I let it sit under vacuum for 10 minutes, release the vacuum, and then until the
+
+[8:11] spin's all, I had to let it filter for several hours.
+
+[8:15] Like a chump. Yes. You had to let her filter like a chump. Anyway, so what I'm going to try to do, see whether you like this. I'm going to put the coffee into the rotor dry and then use the force, centrifugal force to like force the liquid into the into the coffee under
+
+[8:30] pressure and then see if I can just continuously make it without having to do the vacuum step.
+
+[8:34] And this way the coffee will pre-pack in. I'm a little worried that like in an espresso situation, I'm going to get channeling and I'll just keep extracting out of the same pieces of coffee as I go through, but this is also something that needs to be
+
+[8:45] tested. Yeah? Yeah. I want to try it. Yeah, all right. Or I could just, you know, the thing is, I would like to do it continuously. I mean, I could just keep doing it in batches, but I would like to be able to do it continuously. Anyway, okay. What? Pack it in the coffee and pre-wed it. Rather than totally dry. Yeah, no, but I'm more worried about, like, as it, like, as water works its way through the coffee, it will be removed, it will be extracting crap from said coffee. As it extracts crap from said coffee, that channel is now easier to extract through.
+
+[9:20] And once everything's hydrated and swollen. And so then it seems to me that because water is going to take the path of
+
+[9:26] least resistance, the same way that when you poorly pack an espresso puck and you get the channels around the outside,
+
+[9:32] they're going to have something similar happen. And if, I don't know, who knows? test. I'll have to get a refractometer. Do you have the tables to read coffee off of a regular fractometer off a non-coffee? No, but I have a coffee or hot coffee. Wow, wow, wow. Very fancy. Call that. I'm super fancy man. Did you have to pay for that or did you get that popular science back in the day? popular science. Nice. You know what? People? Being a writer is like a good, like a magazine writer. I mean, I guess not need more. Not web good deal, right? For that kind of thing. Extremely. For drones and refractometers, if that's what you, you know. Yes. Yes. David, want to take a call? Yes, I would love to take a call. Call, are you on the air? Hello, gentlemen, in the software. How are you guys? Doing well. Great. My question is, is there a safe way to cook
+
+[10:22] sun chokes? Uh, I have tried cooking them on low temperature about, uh, 225
+
+[10:30] overnight and I still, uh, have had a bad experience. So I'm wondering, is there any, uh, you know,
+
+[10:42] morally uh, constable way to cook them and conserve them to my guess. You my friend, have called on the right date. Harold wrote a whole chapter in his second book on the Flatulence Inducing Powers of the Sunchoke, and if she wishes to pipe up, Nastasia Lopez purposely poisoned one of her friends with
+
+[11:00] undercooked Sunchokes on purpose. So I will just, and by the way, for those of you that don't know, Sunchokes,
+
+[11:06] they, they, and the majority of people, right, Harold, cause severe gastrointestinal
+
+[11:11] distress if eaten in large quantities. So I herald only take it away. Right. Well, I'm afraid, at least from my understanding of
+
+[11:19] sun chokes and experience with sun chokes, you can make them less difficult, progressively less difficult by cooking them, cooking them, cooking
+
+[11:29] them, but when you do that, they lose texture and they get sweeter, sweeter, sweeter, so they become less themselves and more
+
+[11:37] like, I don't know, underground candy or something like that. And it's, I don't find that particular flavor, especially nice when it gets to that stage. So I would say that, um, you know, there's the
+
+[11:51] saying in medicine, the dose makes the poison, I would, I would just, uh, you know, figure out how many slices you can actually take and, uh, and serve that number and just,
+
+[12:04] um, yeah, I, otherwise you're not going to have the, the sun choke experience. Yeah, okay. A good sunshine experience. So they mean like those of you that don't aren't familiar with not thinking about sun choks all the time. The culprit in Sunchokes is a long chain polysaccharide inulin. Inulin is a, it's actually a bunch of linked up fructose molecules. It's long chain fructose. The other common thing we use, It has a lot of lot of insulin is agave. So when you long, long, long, long, long roast agave, you convert the
+
+[12:35] indulin and agave to fructose, which is why agave syrup is a high fructose product, and that is, of course, the main fermentable, but the only fermentable in
+
+[12:45] tequila and mescal. Uh, so yeah, if you, more you break it down, the sweeter that sucker is gonna, gonna get. Um, but so what's your, have you tested your dose, response relationship, Harold,
+
+[12:57] with Sencho? Um, yeah, I can I can actually take like, uh, a medium-sized one or a couple of smaller ones and really not feel
+
+[13:08] it. But also, I don't mind feeling it a little bit because, you know, it's a way of knowing that you're keeping your microbiome happy.
+
+[13:19] Well, I was going to ask you, is there a difference in different people's. So the reason that it causes all those problems down there is that your body can't digest inulin, but the microbes in your gut have no problem digesting
+
+[13:29] inulin. And when they do so, they produce gas. And, you know, that causes extreme discomfort, especially in some people, looking at
+
+[13:37] Nastasia Lopez. helping their microbiomes. That's, that's, although it's not poisoning. question, does this mean that you could actually ferment the fun chokes and ferment out some or of the inulin that way as a possible? Um, way of, of getting rid of, um, some of the, uh, undadjustable. I mean yeast won't eat it, but there's probably a bacterial fermental to it, right? Yeah, yeah, but they're they're going to do what cooking would do. They're going to break down the long chains into small molecules and then use those for energy. So you're, again, going to kind of eat away the structure of the, of the root and turn it into something else. I mean, it could be really interesting, could be delicious. Have you tried the sunchop liqueur, Topinambor? I have not tried it. No, I have not. I have not tried it either. Paul, you tried that sucker? No. Where's it from? I don't think it's a European thing. you know, that's the French word, right? So I'm assuming it's somewhat, it's from a French speaking country, a Francophone country. What about one of your enzymes, Dave? I don't have an inulin breaking enzyme, although we can call Guzmer and see what's going on. I have a cellulate enzyme, but I haven't had time to play with it because of all the spins all stuff I'm doing. I wanna try to take the strings out of celery with it. and let it remain crunchy. That my goal. It's one of my life goals. Uh, but, um, That's why it's called cellulase. Yes, yes. Harold, do you think there's a difference between different So for instance, like certain bacteria can ferment and produce gas, while a different group of bacteria can ferment the same product and not produce
+
+[15:14] gas. Is there a difference between different people's microbiome? And so if you consume a lot of something, could you favor a bacteria that maybe doesn't produce as much gas when it's eating it? Like, you're getting some sudden rush from something that can be like, oh, man, they take it in and then like that that colony will get superseded by a different microbe or is that not possible? No, I think it is possible, and you're reminding me of some researcher was done back in the, I think it was the
+
+[15:37] 90s on people's tolerance to beans, which have some of the same problems for the same reasons, indigestible carbohydrates. And I think what I recall is that people could, with time, tolerate more. So, uh, and that could be one of 2 different things. It could be other microbes getting in on the act and using those carbohydrates and not generating gas, or it could be other microbes in the community taking advantage of the gas that's being produced by the microbes that can digest in
+
+[16:14] Yolen, and turning that into something else. So they could be taking up the hydrogen as soon as it's generated and using it for their own metabolic processes. So, either, like, whatever the mechanism, there is some sort of gut, like, um, adaptability to these non-fermentable carbohydrates. So we just go, like, build your build a tolerance. Hey, the awesome thing about building a tolerance up, my friend, is that then you can pull the realness out. Nastasia only went halfway. She had a horrible experience with Sunchokes. She and Piper cooked a boatload of them because they just hadn't thought about it. They hadn't read the curious cook, apparently. And they had like a horrible night of gastrointestinal distress because they were basically just eating a big pile of cooked sunchokes and sauce, right? And then Nastasia invited her friends to a picnic where she served the exact same dish to
+
+[17:10] them and then just picked around all the sun chokes without like making a big deal about picking around
+
+[17:16] it and they weren't looking. and so that's how she did it. But if she was a real baller, right? If she was really gonna push the envelope of evil, she would slowly, slowly, slowly build up a tolerance to Sancho's, whereby she could eat like a lot of them, and then she could be gustily, like forking them into her face,
+
+[17:34] like, with, you know, you know, complete lack of concern the entire time, and
+
+[17:38] then, and then her friends would be chewing on that stuff, and then they would get ripped. Yeah. That life goal, my friend, right there. It's just a thing full of life goals. Brilliant. Yeah. Actually, so I had another, by the way, turns out, did you know this? Not all life goals are worthwhile. You guys still on the phone? I don't know. I think his baby is. Oh, nice. Sorry, I turned that. All right, thanks, guys. Hey, no problem. So the, I achieved a life goal finally, and it was horrible. It was horrible. I mean, I, like, so for years, I've wanted to make Hugo Hugo de Papas Fritas, like French fry juice, uh, because it's what I used to say to Dax all the time. We were joking about because he knows Spanish and I don't, so I would just make up random Spanish
+
+[18:18] words. And so that was French fried juice. So I have this new enzyme that allows me to completely like liquefy and then sacrifice
+
+[18:25] things, these distillers enzymes. I'm using San extra and termomeal from Nova times. And so I cook some French fries. They're pretty good. They were okay. They weren't my best French fry. I didn't SPL soaked them, but they were like a real double, you know, triple cook, uh, fry, good. I ate one, verified. They tasted good. And then I blended them with like a little bit of water and some enzymes and mashed them out in
+
+[18:53] basically like you would for liquor. like completely liquefied and they were complete liquid. Sweet, sweet, sweet. And then I spun them in the spinzle, and I got French fried juice, and it was just wretched. Tasted terrible. Was it salted? No, maybe I should have salted it, but I just tasted it. like, and you know, much like, you know, Harold was saying before. This is just like, you know, like all these years I've been thinking about it and it just wasn't what I wanted. It just was not good. I mean, maybe if I'd had a really high powered centrifuge that I could make it totally clear. Like, you know, I would need like 40 or 50 I'd probably need like 40,000 Gs to really do what I wanted there. But even so, like I wasn't like, you know how like when you're working on something, it's going somewhere and you're like, oh, this is going somewhere.
+
+[19:35] I tasted like this and I'd be like, I've been wasting my brain power thinking about this. This is like, you know, not I'm not going to say it's the worst mistake I made, but it's like, you know, it's not. What was wrong with it? The sweetness? It just tasted, yeah, it just tasted bad. It just didn't, it wasn't what I wanted to have happen. It wasn't like it was in my mind. I'm even know what I want in my mind. In my mind, I'm eating French fries and there's some, like, terrifically refreshing drink that I'm having. And in my mind, they combined. The same way that French fries and ice cream combined, right? Like French fries and ice cream are delicious in combination. Like, have you ever taken like a sundae and just jammed some french fries into it and eaten it, it's good. It tastes good. But like, it's good. I mean, take my word for it. or don't, just go try it. It's easily tested hypothesis. But the, uh, yeah, this is just not good. Carbonated? I did not because I, you know, look, how many, I've carbonated so many things. I have a pretty, like, I feel at this point, I have a pretty good judge of
+
+[20:29] will this carbonate properly, and I just, there's just nothing pleasant. I was not like, fermented? I could, maybe I could ferment it. fried beer. But the problem is, is that anything that has leftover oil. left it ferment, that oil is eventually going to go rancid, especially when there's only a little bit of it there. So maybe what you need to do is make fresh fry, French fries, a la minute, and then shake it, whatever, with whatever you want
+
+[20:50] to, and then get that out. Yeah, I'll try that. I'll try that. I once made a French fried booze. It's not really, it's not, it's not French fried juice unless it's literally the juice of a French fry. It is not hugo de papas fritas, unless it is literally French fried juice. I have made French fry infusions that were okay. But they don't last. They go rancid. You need to do it aluminute. They taste really bad after day. And interestingly, you know that flavor of old potato. You know that flavor, that potato that you had in the fridge and you took it out and you eat it, that nastiness? I don't know what causes that. Do you know what causes that? I think it's Matthianal. Really? A sulfur containing aldehyde from thionine, the amino acid. And that's the flavor of old potato. I think it's the it's part of the flavor of freshly made potato, but I think it becomes stronger and stronger and swamps out
+
+[21:44] the other more delicate things. Is it very volatile? Is that why when you fry a potato that you've had in the fridge, it tastes good? Like, is that why you can, like, refrigerate, like, like, let
+
+[21:55] it fry, go cold in between 1st and 2nd fry or, or is it, do you have to start frozen? Like if you take a between 1st and 2nd fry, you can put a fry in the fridge till it gets that nasty texture. And then when you fry it, the crisp fry, then it's good
+
+[22:09] again, is that because it's volatile and it just gets driven off? Well, I think probably what's happening is that you're driving off maybe an excess of
+
+[22:18] that, and you're also generating all those aldehydes from the frying oil. which we're going to dominate, but they're, the aldehydes from the frying process are polyunsaturates, so they're really
+
+[22:34] reactive. And I think that's part of the reason, maybe, that the true experiment didn't work, is that they're, if they're sitting there for any length of time with stuff that can react with them, like proteins in particular, then
+
+[22:45] it's going to happen and they're going to go away. Yeah. I got another caller with a question for Harold. Good caller. on the air. Speaking of foods that cause discomfort. This is Jeff, this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa. How's it going? How you doing? I had an experience recently that reminded me of when Harold's sense of smell was wiped out
+
+[23:09] for like a month. Uh, not nearly as bad, um, but for about a week. Everything that I ate had a bitter aftertaste. And it made, and it made eating very uncomfortable and, and yeah, I went into like a mild depression because food was not something I looked forward to.
+
+[23:29] So after scouring the internet and my memory to try and think of what I may have done or eaten to cause
+
+[23:37] this. First, I just figured I had a brain tumor, and my, my, you know, receptors were all screwed up. But it looks like it was, I had been pounding pine
+
+[23:49] nuts. Oh, you ate one. But it had been a couple days since I had eaten a pine nut, but that seems to be the culprit.
+
+[23:56] And I'm wondering, if that sounds accurate, and why? Our friend Nick Wong got taken out by a pine nut. Yeah, and and I think Francis Lamb also got taken out by a pine or at least had a bitter one and then and
+
+[24:13] I don't I'm not sure it lasted for a week, but he was concerned. So do you know the, have you researched the, uh, it's the typically it's one of these kind of like, uh, very, it's kind of a, they're always like, it's the Chinese pie nuts.
+
+[24:27] But is that actually true? Is there like pinuts from China? Yeah, no, it's a particular species of pine from which these particular pine nuts come
+
+[24:35] that, and they contain, apparently naturally, some compound
+
+[24:39] that reacts with our taste buds and gives us that kind of bitter hangover.
+
+[24:47] And I haven't looked at the literature for a couple years, but as of a couple of years ago, They had no clue what that molecule was and how it acted. So they don't know anything. So like, my guess is it locks into your bitter receptors and lets them fire on other things,
+
+[25:02] right? That would make sense. yeah Yeah. But maybe what you have to do is because our taste cells are constantly being replaced. Maybe you just have to get you have to slough those off before, yeah. So unlike Miraculous, which is a temporary bind and gets washed away, or gymnemic acid, which is a temporary bind and gets washed away, you're saying this might permanently F those taste receptors and you have to wait for them to get regenerated, huh?
+
+[25:28] Yeah, yeah. Huh. Yeah. But like I say, I haven't looked at the literature for a while. So it like jams them open. That's the theory. Or something. Well, I mean, that's that's my theory. Like she has a crowbar into that receptor and keeps it open all the time. Yeah. So, Harold, from what you'd read, is it does this affect everybody if we eat that particular species of
+
+[25:50] pine or is it only certain people that react this way? Yeah, so, uh, it's one of those subjects where, you know, uh, nobody's going to pay for the research that we would all like to have done on it. So it was basically as of a few years ago, mostly anecdotal and really hard to draw firm conclusions
+
+[26:10] about. But, you know, because people do vary in their sensitivity to bitter in the 1st place. My guess is that it probably affects most people that way, but not everybody. And maybe the people it doesn't affect the people who can't detect bitter in the 1st place. Right. How much do we know? I need advice on avoiding those particular pine
+
+[26:31] nuts. by American pine nuts. I can identify. Yeah, I mean, I've actually seen now in, in some stores, people will label. they've got their Chinese pine nuts for not much and then they're European pine nuts for like 5 times that amount. Are American southwestern pine nuts commercially available at all or no? I've seen them a couple of times, but only regionally. You know, I've never seen them for sale in a in a general sort of way. They good? Yeah, yeah. I remember going to the Grand Canyon and the winter ones. And, uh, uh, in an area nearby there, there were pine pine cones on the ground and they'd already been, you know, squirrels had clearly gotten at them or
+
+[27:21] jays or something like that. So we cracked a few open and tasted them and they were good and and there was no hangover. So, yeah. How many times out of a 100, when Nastasia, when we saw new students in the Italian program at the
+
+[27:36] SCI, did they burn those freaking pine nuts when they, a 100, like 99.9 times out of a hundred? It's pine nuts of those things. It's a classic thing when you're learning to cook, right? You try to toast to pine nuts and they go from like 0 to ruined like this. It's like you had to have an eagle eye on those pine nuts. Like, that's what you should, like, that's like, you know, like the, you must be able to have the mental ability to keep track of your pine nuts if you're
+
+[28:02] going to make it in the kitchen. Yeah, they're like the garlic of the nut world. Yeah, yeah, they're gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, you know what a question I had for you, Harold, years ago. I don't think we ever figured it out or I don't remember, is why it is that hazelnuts clearly have something in the middle of them, that browns more
+
+[28:23] rapidly, and the stuff on the exterior of the nut, that's why the hazelnuts always, you can think that you haven't
+
+[28:30] overroasted them. And when you crack them open, the interiors are over roasted. Yeah, yeah. The heck is that? Yeah, I still don't know. I mean, again, one of those questions nobody's going to pay to do the research, but it must be so the cool thing about one of the many cool things about hazelnuts is that they're hollow on the inside. And I thought for a while that maybe it had something to do with that, that there's
+
+[28:52] this surface, that you don't find in other nuts. And the part of the hazelnut that isn't surface, doesn't get brown as fast as the surface part. So I thought it had something to do with just surfaceness. But then, you know, thought about the thermodynamics of it and decided that probably wasn't correct. So my guess is there's probably some kind of coding of, I don't know, like a sugar or something like that. Brown stats, I don't know. Yeah, well, okay, so that cavity is the place between the 2 codolitans, right? So in there, somewhere in there, maybe there's, I don't know, this other stuff is happening, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I've been thinking this, not just about hazelnuts, but about things in general. We should make a list of interesting questions like that that no one's going to pay to actually do the research on and just put them out there so that people who have the resources and
+
+[29:49] curiosity, maybe will use their their cool machines to figure out something that, you know, the professionals never will.
+
+[29:57] Yeah, maybe maybe Ariel and MIT can get on some of these problems. Yeah, hear that cooking issues, people, and start a list. Keep a list generated. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I like that. There's lots of... This is a lot, to me, no offense to Air VTs. offense, a tent intended, by the way, but like, like, it's more like these questions that like aren't haven't been answered are somehow more interesting than like kind of
+
+[30:20] the stuff that he runs through. What do you think? Yes. All right, enough. I wanted to ask on the subject of different people's responses to bitterness how much do we
+
+[30:32] know not just about quantifying that, but qualitative, different types of bitterness. Like for me, I can drink extremely strong coffee and I love it, but even a faintly strong beer is much too bitter for my
+
+[30:44] sensibilities. Yeah, yeah. So one of the interesting things about taste receptors is that we have basically one or
+
+[30:55] 2 for most of the taste modalities except for bitterness, for which we have dozens. And it's probably because there are so the body doesn't really care so much to distinguish between, say,
+
+[31:08] alkaloids, which are bitter. Yeah. And, you know, hop compounds, which are bitter. It just wants you to know that these things are these complex molecules are there. They're probably not good for you, so pay attention. And so, uh, we have receptors for all these different uh, categories and chemicals, metals and things like that as well. But they all send basically the same signal, which is bitterness, which
+
+[31:35] is just watch out. And I think that's what's going on. You've got of those dozens of receptors. You've got most of them, but there's one that you have extra copies
+
+[31:46] of and maybe not enough copies or not as many copies of the coffee one. Yeah. Fascinating. All right, let's hit a question we got from Susan. writing from Switzerland. Love your show, can't figure out from your website, if this is the right way? Well, I guess it is. Here you are. Is there any reason other than the color of the meat for me to use curing salt when making corned beef? Most formulas I find on the internet call for it. I don't care about the color. I'm doing an 8 day brine and plan to sous vide the brisket for 48 hours of 60 C. Thanks, Susan. So, um, that's interesting. I didn't have a chance to research. I don't know if you did, Harold. So, like, everyone always says that gets the cured color and
+
+[32:25] flavor, but then I wasn't able to find any immediate references on what cured flavor is from
+
+[32:31] a relatively quick curing standpoint in nitrates or nitrates. Do you know anything about that? Yeah, I don't know about quick curing, but it's been studied in longer curing, and I don't, you know, I can't cite chapter and verse about how long, but I think it's the case, you know, that these molecules
+
+[32:49] are, they're, they contain nitrogen, which is reactive, and which is going to react with stuff in the
+
+[32:56] meat, that, and produce compounds that you wouldn't have otherwise, and they're antioxidants. And so they're going to prevent some reactions from taking place that would otherwise. And so they're going to shift the flavor of the meat when it's cooked to something a little different. Right. And I'm sure I'm sure most of the textural properties are from the salt proper, right? Yeah. I mean, because it's there in such large quantities and it's affecting all the protein conformation. But yeah, so you think, yeah, reason to use it. Yeah, yeah. I can identify cured flavor. Well, but the thing is, have you had a lot of things that are, like, like, I've never said, yeah, I mean, like one tastes like one tastes like cooked pork, and the other one tastes like cured pork. Yeah, I've done 48 hour hams. Well, in other words, have you ever done side by side, one nitrite, one knot? Yes. And the result? Cured flavor. It's like a slightly sweet meatiness. It's hard to describe, a little... It's hard to describe. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem. And so like, you know, for years, I just would say cured color and flavor. But like, you can't really describe it, but you know that, and then you say, well, bacon obviously doesn't taste like pork belly. Uh, but then they're like, well, that's because it's been smoked, but like, no, it's not just the smoke. It's not just the smoke. You know what I mean? It's... Yeah. And I also think it's not just one thing. It's preventing some reactions from taking place and encouraging other reactions to
+
+[34:27] take place so that you just shift the center of gravity of the flavor from one area to another.
+
+[34:33] Right. Oh, they're going to get substantially less oxidation and beef brisket than you will in pork belly.
+
+[34:38] Uh, yeah. I'm just saying. I wonder whether it has a more profound effect than on fats that are, you know, more unsaturated, like pork fat versus beef, which is has, you know, much more
+
+[34:54] saturated fat base. I just wonder. I don't know. Like, you know, it's like maybe maybe pork is like, you know, it's absolutely necessary to use it because you're actually a lot
+
+[35:04] of, you're not just creating flavor, but you're, as you say, limiting things. I'm just talking off the top my head here, whereas in beef is a much more stable meat in terms
+
+[35:12] of oxidation. For for the fat part, yes, but um, every cell has
+
+[35:20] uh, uh, what are they called uh, uh, phospholipids in the membranes. And they're always unsaturated, true to varying degrees. So I think you've always got it, and it doesn't take a lot of, uh, unsaturated, uh, lipid
+
+[35:40] oxidation for you to notice it. So I think probably what's going to be important is what's in the membranes and not just what's in the storage fat. Fair enough. Here's one I hope you have an answer to because I do not. Uh, hello, Cooking Ishu's crew. I've been trying to, or maybe Paul's done this, although you're an east coaster, so I doubt it. I've been trying to find some info on the interwebs regarding cooking whole wild abalone
+
+[36:01] in a low temperature setup, so to bypass a tenderization step normally associated with cooking abalone.
+
+[36:06] The few articles that I have found usually deal with a tiny farmed abalone found in live tanks at Asian grocery stores or fish markets. However, these have a far different flavor texture and toughness than the wild, large red abalone that we harvest here in northern California. The brutal nature of pounding the crab out of these delicious sea animals after slicing very thin to render them tender enough to chew. And the fact that I would like to be able to cut thin, thick steaks or cubes, or even cook whole and have it be as tender as the aforementioned violently tenderized scalopini of
+
+[36:34] gastropod. has me seeking new methods of cooking. I have a commercial vac and a jewel, immersion circulator, jewel, from chef steps, our good buddies. So ready to go. This is a very rare delicacy for most, and not something that they would feel comfortable with possibly wasting
+
+[36:49] precious precious abalone flesh on trial runs. Perhaps you or someone from the chef steps crew have tackled this issue, as they are up in the Pacific Northwest and have probably cooked abalone this way before, any help would be great. Thanks, Josh, from Norcal. So, uh, I don't have any experience uh, with, with, um, uh, you know, cooking fresh abalone. I had some delicious fresh abalone in China, like really, really good, big, like good and
+
+[37:13] whole, like and good. I don't know how they did it. And I would just say this. I spoke to Grant, a chef steps when I was out there a week and a half ago or whatever, about his preparation of Gooey Duck, which was, I think, one of the greatest gooey ducks I've ever had. And I thought it was just the low temperature cooking that he had used because he used a CVAP to do the low temperature cooking on it. And you guys have actually had it. I had it with you that night, Herald. We were there the same night, and I think Paul, you had it at some other time. Their gooey duck was great, right? Uh, yeah. So he put it in a vacuum bag and beat the crap out of it. So like I was like, I was like, man, just that low temperature cooking like made it that tender. He's like, that and beating the crap out of it. And I think he used that to just heat it up without actually cooking it. I think that was how he did it. massively tenderized it and then just warmed it rather than cooking it all the way through. But do you have any abalone experts? I looked up high pressure processing. Most people who tenderize whole abalone, It looks like they either do a very long braise or they pressure cook it. I don't know whether that's helping. What do you what do you got on this here? Well, I mean, he's had a It's a rare delicacy. It's so rare that I've never had it. I've had the farmed abalone, but you know, basically out there, if you're not diving for it yourself, or you know someone who's diving for it, you just don't see it. So I have no experience with it whatsoever. But when you're doing that, like, so when you cook octopus for a long time. Okay, you've done a lot of work on octopus. So let's just let's just look at uh, at things that get tough and then need to either be cooked rapidly, uh, or be beaten and cooked rapidly or cooked very little or cooked a long time.
+
+[38:48] So you've spent a lot of work on this. So let's pretend for a minute that, because it's, they probably have fairly similar muscle chemistry, right? I mean, like in terms of like what makes them, one's obviously much tougher. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I have worked with the little ones. And, uh, their meat is just so different from from octopus that, uh, you know, I'm not sure that the information is transferable. But, I mean, so what I would try and this is another example of something, no one's going to pay to do it, so somebody do
+
+[39:23] it, and then let the rest of us know about it. Well, let's put it this way. Do you like pressure cooked octopus or no? Um, yeah, it's it's okay. It's okay. You don't think it's mushy? Depends on, I mean, that's the problem. It depends on how long it's been done. What's your go-to octopus? Long, long and slow. Yeah. See, I think bagging the abalone and then figuring out what time temperature thing, but
+
+[39:51] again, here's my thing, right? So the farmed one is going to be different from the wild one, right? different species of uh, what is it? Haleotis, right? Uh, different species, uh, different size, different age. But if you figure out how to cook the cheap one and make it tender, it seems like you then could limit the number of trials you have to pull with the
+
+[40:18] meal deal, right? I mean, I would bet some form of bagging it. I mean, I looked up people pressure cooking it, and they seem to enjoy pressure cooking it whole. But then, I mean, it's going to be pressure cooked. It's not going to be, you know, I don't know. And by the way, I'm not a huge fan in general of using
+
+[40:39] protease enzymes on meat. Are you, Harold? No. No, yeah. But like, but is it mainly because they get mushy on the surface, but the interior is not fixed? I'm wondering in an abalone, because of the structure of the meat, and the fibers in it, whether or not you could do a quick, basically make an enzyme solution and vacuum
+
+[41:00] infuse it into the entire thing, and then have the tenderization happen throughout, or even use high pressure in like an EC or something and force the enzyme into the meat structure under pressure.
+
+[41:13] That actually probably work better. And then, um, in fact, uh, when you open that and it foams back out again, you'll also tenderize by internally ripping the animal apart as
+
+[41:23] they uh, bubbles come out. I'm wondering whether that might be a decent approach, if it's quick. I mean, it's these long soaks in things that mushify the outside. That's what makes it awful, right? Yeah. Yeah, and maybe doing what you just said, but after a preliminary pounding to kind of loosen things up to begin with. Right, and then... Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. All right, Nastasi, did you find that question? All right, why don't you read it for me? Okay. This was a question we had a couple of weeks ago that I missed on coconut fat. Okay, so hi, Dave and Sassia, David, and Guests. Many thanks for answering my question on plug and play PID controllers or freezers. Read it with feeling, Nastasio. Typically, in the UK, can coconut milk is between 16 to 18% fat content and
+
+[42:11] stabilize with guorgum. I've used this both directly and shaken drinks and made a syrup with equal parts by weight of coconut milk and sugar
+
+[42:18] and other versions where I've diluted the coconut milk with, say, a further 25% by volume with water before adding equal weight of sugar.
+
+[42:27] Can I just get to the question? Okay. Do you have any pointers for making or using coconut milk where the flocculating slash falling out of emulsion can be avoided? Okay, so you have hit a very hard problem. Years ago, I spoke with Scott Reeffler, who's the head of Tickums out on the
+
+[42:45] west coast, and this is a known problem. Coconut fat, suspending coconut fat in a liquid is a known difficult problem. You have any experience with this, Harold? I don't, no. Yeah. No difficult problem. And the reason is, is it's hard. Coconut fat is hard. You know what I mean? I mean, literally hard, not difficult, like literally hard. And hard to suspend. So, uh, if when people are using coconut in beverages, right? So the stuff that they make, coconut milk that they make that they stabilize is fine for soups,
+
+[43:19] where you're going to stir it, and typically, and those are stabilized, I think you're right, with guar and other things. But for the beverage application, which are going to be served cold, right? It's a much more difficult problem to keep the fat emulsified and not stop it from flocking together when it's cold. And so for that, you need to turn to a product we have here named after Nastasia, the
+
+[43:38] cocoa Lopez, coconut cream. But the problem with Coco Lopez coconut cream is it's extremely sweet, right? Now, if you want to see just how difficult it is to keep that stuff emulsified in your piña
+
+[43:49] colada, and why, basically, unless you use a lot of fancy techniques, you really need to go
+
+[43:54] buy the Coco Lopez. I will read to you the ingredient lists of Coco Lopez. Coconut milk, all right? Sugar, water. Polysorbet 60, sorbetan monosteriate, pro salt, propylene glycol alginate, mono and dyglycerides, citric
+
+[44:13] acid, for a city, guargum, and locust bean gum. So what you have here is just like, it's like they took, they took the biggest elephant gun they could get. Shoved it full of a mass of thickeners, uh, stabilizers, because PGAs
+
+[44:30] and a most fire and a thickener slash stabilizer, and actual emulsifiers, most of which are based on steeric acid, uh, you know, which is, you know, I'm
+
+[44:38] going to work in these applications. Then we're like, and they blew it into this thing. This thing is like the most stabilized commodity like on
+
+[44:47] earth. And let me tell you something about industry. Industry is not about adding a bunch of crap that they don't need. So like chefs, right? Chefs, when a chef comes up with a recipe, and they've used 18,000 thickeners, right? But they've gone through like 5 days of figuring out what's going on and they finally find the recipe that works. You know what they don't do? They don't go back and one by one yank the things they put into it out to see whether they actually need it, right? Like, they don't. So they write the recipe with that huge like poop spray of ingredients in
+
+[45:17] it, and then eventually some knucklehead forgets to put it in and was like,
+
+[45:21] Chef, I forgot to put it in. And then they go taste it and they're like, hey, it's still good. Don't put it in anymore, right? That's how it works. And so, especially because these ingredients have a relatively low cost of use relative to the rest of the food you're buying in a restaurant,
+
+[45:34] right? So chef's recipes very, very rarely get changed after they're made. Um, That's not the way it works in industry. Like, seriously, like, the price of PGA goes up by a nickel, and all of a
+
+[45:46] sudden, everyone nukes PGA from their, uh, that's propylene glycalgenate. This actually happened. Nukes PGA from their formulation so they can use something else that has a lower cost in use because it's 1000000s of dollars at stake.
+
+[45:57] So, uh, the fact that the Coco Lopez Corporation uses such a large, uh, you know, wealth of stabilizers and thickeners means they need it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. All right, let me see. Oh, my phone's being... I'm going to wrap up in a minute, Dave. All right, so I'll read this here. So Ken Ingber, longtime listener, where's Boston, right? Boston town. where you're not going to Boston now? You're not doing the end of the Harvard this year? Did that last week? How was it? Last week. It was good. It was good. Any good projects? There were some fun ones. Transparent potato chips. How transparent. Transparent, transparent. And crispy. That a little too hard rather than crispy. So it needs some work. Ne some work. So how did they make them transparent? They boiled potatoes in water to make a potato flavored liquid and then added potato starch. Eh, eh, eh, measured braking forces and things like that for, yeah. Tastes good? Uh, yeah, yeah. Like a potato chip? Um, like uh, like a Pringles. Ooh, so not like a potato. Right. All Wait, before I say, what do you have you had a real Maui potato chip, kettle cooked, hand, kettle cooked, and from Maui? Yes. They are enjoyable. Yeah, they're delicious. Yes. I stumbled across an old episodes for Keningbird. In 2011, in which Dave mentioned the Canadian centrifuge. was originally known as the Cirval, SS1. That the danger fuse for all you who are keeping track. And I wondered if years later, maybe some subconsciously, they could have figured into naming the seers all and more closely related, but apparently safer, spins all. Good luck. He gives us good luck. When I was a kid, my dentist used to make his own amalgam for fillings. Remember, Amalgam used to have mercury in it. Using a tabletop centrifuge with 2 or 4 test tube like vessels that spun without a housing. Occasionally, the vessel would let go and fly into a wall. My analytic faculties and legal training, still embryonic at that time, were sufficient to
+
+[47:56] lead me to believe that this was pretty dangerous. And not much later in life. I wondered if Dr. Roskin became as mad as a hatter as a result. Best regards, Ken. All right, well, listen, Harold, thanks for coming over. you know, you should always be on the east coast. You should come back to the east coast. You know, you love it too much in San Francisco. You're too much of a San Francisco man. Nastasia, anti-San Francisco. Yeah. But anyway, actually, I had a good time. Me too, me too. All right, all right. Come back anytime, Paul, thanks for coming. This has been cooking issues.
+
+[48:31] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[49:07] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by the Christmas Tree Farmers Association of New York, partnering with Grow NYC to make Farm Fresh Trees and Wreaths available at
+
+[0:08] green markets. For more information, visit ChristmastreesNY.org. Hey everyone, this is David Tatashore, lead engineer and studio manager of the Heritage Radio Network, and I'm reaching out to ask for your support during our end of year
+
+[0:25] fun drive. A contribution in any amount supports our weekly programming and our mission to make the world a more equitable, sustainable, and delicious place. Plus, you'll receive exclusive member benefits like monthly playlists, discounted event tickets, party invitations, and more. So if you like good food and you love good food radio, throw a little dough our way. Make your gift at heritageradionetwork.org slash donate. Happy holidays from all of us here at Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[1:08] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Hartle, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or one o'clock Heritage Pizza Heritage Pizzeria. Kind of heritage pizzeria. Roberta Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn, welcome to the holiday. Yeah, Christmas. Any holiday, really. I mean, you and I happen to be Christmas folk. But any, you know, any holiday of your choice. Happy, yeah. Chronica starts on the same day as Christmas Eve. Come on, it's so late. That's unusual, right? Why is it so dang late? Don't know. We need to synchronize these things. We did. It is. Oh, semisynchronized. No gods, no religion. Wow. Wow, wow. This is not a, you know, this is not that kind of a show, Dave. All right, sorry about that. That kind of show. Sorry for going off the handle. All right, so, uh, anyway, uh, calling your questions to a 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Um, Cooking, not really, you know, not cooking related. We do not have Harold McGee today. Booker is calling me on my phone. I don't know, we like, he's, well, maybe. Well, all right. Is he home or is he? No, he's doing the world. He's doing this thing called rail fanning. Hold a second. He's going to get mad at me if I actually put him on the line. Is it some kind of extreme sport? What is that? Kind of. It's these people, uh, my son included, who love, uh, riding on the trains. It's, and it's really all they care to do is ride on the trains and see what, see what he has to say here.
+
+[2:49] Yeah, maybe whatever it was, it's not important anymore. He found his train. Found his train. He's usually just calling me... Hi, dad. Hey, Booker. What's up? I'm on the radio show right now. do you need? I'm on my way back home. Okay, I'll see you in a little bit. I know I'm at Court Square. Court Square. Yes. Did you have a good rail fanning trip? Yep, I'm coming back home now. Bye. Bye. People, listen, I know I'm in the middle of a radio program here, but when your son calls you and he's
+
+[3:21] twice and he's out, you know, by himself on the subway system, you take the
+
+[3:26] call. Am I wrong about distance down here? right. Wait, are these older people that go on the thing with them? Are they young? Okay, so if you want to see what the rail fanning crew looks like. I think you actually, you might have missed your opportunity this year. Have you been on the holiday train? So one of the fun things to do in New York City during the holiday season is every Sunday. They won't do it this time because it's Christmas, they run antique trains
+
+[3:50] on from 2nd Avenue to Queens Plaza along the F-line. Um, And so you can ride it. And, like, it's there's exactly 2 kinds of people on that train. Have we talked about this already? There's 2 kinds of people on that train. There are like the people who are dressed up in fake 40s and 30s clothes, taking pictures of themselves, and then they're hardcore rail fanners. And those 2 groups of people could not be any more different. The hardcore rail fanners, like typically are wearing some sort of like railroad a finalia. You know what I mean? Some sort of like, you know, 207 street track workers thing or whatever. You know what I mean? Some sort of, like my son Booker has a baseball cap with every pin of every subway train on it.
+
+[4:37] I think he's missing one anyway. So, yeah. It's an interesting cross-section of New York, and it's just the cost of a subway ride. It's all it takes. All right, well, let's get some, uh, get some questions. Do you make anything good this week, Nastasia? No. What about your holiday party? What do you cook? I made pasta and salad like I usually do. Whoa, happy freaking Christmas. Pasta and salad. Pastas? What kind of pasta did you make? Pesto because there was a vegetarian. Peter's wife. And she's vegetarian? Peter Kim, museum of food and drink. Wife is a vegetarian. Shame. She's French. She's vegetarian. Like, vegetables only. No fish. I don't know about fish. I'm sure she eats fish. Didn't Thanksgiving 2 years ago? Didn't they bring some sort of like meat stew, some sort of southern meat stew? No, that was an Ethiopian meats too, right? No, it was Southern French. You can't tell the difference between Ethiopian and southern French. Anyway, point being that did she just suddenly become a... No, I've known her
+
+[5:42] for, we've known her. She always been a vegetarian. No chicken, no fish. Not as far as I know So you made pesto for Christmas? Because basil, nothing's more in season than basil this time of year. Ragu. meat ragu. I thought you said you were cooking vegetarian. 2 different types No, you see, you're basically, you're just saying that you cheaped out and you made pasta because it's cheap. Like, it's cheap, but not because of a vegetarian that was there. You know, truth pasta because of vegetarian. No, no, no, but I couldn't serve the ragout to everyone, so I had to make a pesto, too. No, so it's a secondary fact. Like the vegetarianism isn't the reason that you had pasta for your Christmas party. No, that's because it's cheap. Do you ever do the in your family, did you ever do the meatless Christmas Eve or is that Italian only? We did the Meatless Good Friday, not Christmas Eve. Meatless Christmas Eve? You mean 7 fishes? that how many fishes? Yeah, that's what my family does. Why seven? Is that like a Bible thing? Probably, yeah. I mean, it's just one of those days that you're not supposed to be eating meat back in the
+
+[6:43] day, Italian style. You know what I mean? So we have a ton of fish instead. What do you, what, do you, does your family do the bakala? Oh yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah? How do they make it? So we soak it for a few days and then my grandmother cooks it with marinara sauce,
+
+[6:59] onions. It's delicious. It's the best. your favorite, huh? My favorite. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever spilled the soaking water all into the laundry hamper? Uh, no. I have the salt water? Yeah. Yeah, because we used to soak it downstairs. Like we had like a, you know, like, you know, like, you know, you've made it. your family's made it when you get that 2nd fridge downstairs. It's like you have the fridge in the kitchen, but then you have that 2nd fridge downstairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my mom used to soak the bak a lot in the 2nd in, like right next to the 2nd fridge downstairs and she had it
+
+[7:31] out because I guess she was going to change it. And I dumped, this is like I was in, I don't know, junior hire, high school. I dumped the entire water thing into like the clean laundry basket. Because, you know, the washing machine's right next to the 2nd fridge. You know what I mean? Yeah, this is the setup at my grandmother's house too, actually. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, this is how it works. You know what I mean? It's like, uh, man, that was a nightmare. That stuff stank. Oh my god, did it stink? You know what the worst thing is? is when you say you take all this time soaking it. And if you let it come up to temperature even too high, you let it boil even a little bit and the
+
+[8:06] bakala goes hard. you hate that? Yeah, well, so I actually don't like it to soak too long because I love the saltiness of it.
+
+[8:12] I like when it has that tang. Yeah. Okay, so another thing people might not know. Bakala, by the way, like, uh, is the dried, uh, salt, whitefish, you typically, you know, the high
+
+[8:23] rents does cod, but now they use pollock or whatever they, whatever they. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, hey, hey, yeah, the thick stuff is expensive. You know what I mean? But a lot of people find it, you know, somewhat challenging. It takes a long time to cook. What is delicious, though, and can be done right away is if you buy the cheaper stuff, right? Uh, and it is, is, uh, is you just basically, um, it's thin, so it
+
+[8:51] rehydrates and soaks out really quickly. Just like bring a large pot of water up to a simmer, turn it off, throw it in, right? This is not bakalada, but this is with this fish. throw it in, and then, like, do that like once or twice your taste,
+
+[9:07] then, like, basically shred it, and then make, like, a mashed potato, right? Almost like a brandad, and you mix it in with that, delicious. Like delicious. You can also make it with actual mashed yams, and it becomes closer to like a Trinidad Tobago kind of thing, but like saltfish, and like smash traditional yams, or even like potatoes, more of a
+
+[9:30] brown Dodge style, delicious and easy way to get into it. My favorite weight. Nastasia, did your family ever eat salt cata in any form? Did you ever go out like to restaurants and get it? Have you ever had salt cod fritters? Bacalitos? No. God. That's another really good way to have salt cut. Anyway, so you're not supposed to have meat. So we used to have the bakala. We would always have some form of octopus and we would always have, and this would maybe think of it, the pasta with the anchovies. Dave, you ever do that one? No, we do the anchovies with the Savoy cabbage. Oh, I haven't had that one. You like that? Oh I love it. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. And they get they just melt in the cabbage. You can't even see them anymore, but the flavor is there. Yeah, but we used to do the, we would do the, the anchovy pasta, but the trick with the anchovy pasta is not only you're not supposed to have meat, you're also not supposed to have really dairy on this night,
+
+[10:22] right? So it's a fish only, like it's similar to Lent, right? So we would do breadcrumbs instead of the cheese. You ever do that once to us? Yeah, you got to get the, you've never done breadcrumbs on pasta? Yeah. But not this thing you're talking about. Which, well, what thing? The anchovy process. I don't know what that is. Well, instead of cheese, like for like texture and to soak up extra stuff, you put breadcrumbs on
+
+[10:43] top and actually it's really good. Like breadcrumbs on top of pasta, sounds stupid, like Starch on starch? It's good. really good. I never heard this thing about no cheese, but now that I think about it, there isn't really any cheese in this meal. It's because, yeah, all the recipes are designed to not have cheese. You forget that it was a religious injunction against having many, it wasn't just Lent and Fridays. It was like Christmas Eve, uh, and not only no meat, no dairy, typically no egg, uh, because these are all like Lenten fast rules built around kind of religious strictures from uh,
+
+[11:16] religious. Well, you know, some really good, really good cuisine. Why do you think it does anyone really think for even 12nd that the reason that Italian fish dishes don't contain cheese is because cheese and fish don't taste good
+
+[11:30] together? Anyone that's had a fried fish sandwich with melted American cheese on it knows that cheese
+
+[11:35] tastes good with fish, right? I mean, anyone that's had shrimp and grits realizes that shrimp and cheese and grits and bacon are all on
+
+[11:46] friendly 1st name basis with each other. It's that all of the fish dishes from the Italian repertoire are designed to be eaten on fast
+
+[11:55] days where you're not consuming dairy. That's why you don't get kind of, you know, creamy fish sauces. That's why you don't get, you don't get cheese on your fish sauce. That's why. Fact, history fact for you folk. Was that a call, Dave, coming in? There is a call. Caller, you were on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Matt Mystic. How you doing? How you doing? Um, so we have a little holiday party coming up, and uh, I'm gonna make a festive, sparkling drink, and I was thinking about doing like a carbonated French 75. Nice. Since it's already semi carbonated anyway, right? Yeah. I was thinking, um, but I was wondering if I could use like a sweeter, sparkling wine, like an
+
+[12:37] aspi, instead of like sort of skipping the, skipping the simple syrup and doing like an
+
+[12:42] ass beat. I like how you're doing it with the full, like, kind of like East Coast, Boston, Italian pronunciation,
+
+[12:48] Diasti Spomonti. Yeah, already like jersey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't see why not. You might have to adjust the other stuff, but I don't see why you couldn't do it. Um, when you're, when you're gonna, um, let me see. What, do you know what, what recipe you're going to use for it, what the build is? I don't, actually. I was going to look in liquid intelligence and see what you called for, but... I think I have that recipe in there. One of the things is, is one of the, I can't remember, it's been such a long time, if I don't have the recipe, it's because it didn't fit my normal analysis
+
+[13:18] methods because it's got the added champagne afterwards. And so, um, what happens with the added champagne is, uh, it didn't fit into any one of my kind of normal dilution equations because it has like
+
+[13:34] post dilution afterwards. And so I can't remember whether I made an exception to it and tried to fit it into like one of the standard kind
+
+[13:42] of drink categories that I did because I didn't go into a full-on analysis of that style. So I don't know, but I mean, but it is a, uh, obviously a delicious drink. If you're going to do an actual force carbonated version, Are you going to clarify the citrus or no? I'm going to do like a lemon acid with citric acid. I would instead, since there's you're not going to have that much, probably acid in each cocktail, depending on how you balance it out. I might just carbonate it all and you could basically pre-batch that stuff, and then I would, um, just add a little bit of the fresh at the end, unless you won't be
+
+[14:22] able, people to be able to pour it from the bottle like themselves. Everything depends on what you're going to do. If you're going to use straight acid, I mean, like for a drink like that, if you're going to use straight acid, I would also use a little peel to kind of like brighten it up a little
+
+[14:34] bit. Um, you know, but, uh, you know, give it a test, but that should be uh, delicious. And, you know, what I, what I can do is I can have my family, uh, entire family come by your house
+
+[14:45] and mystic. on Christmas Eve, because I'll be there. And we'll just, you know, we'll be rate you as an enemy of quality if we find that the cocktail is not up to
+
+[14:55] Snuff. What do you think? That sounds good. It's 60 Washington Street. right up the street from the liquor store. Wait, down by where the A&P the old A&P liquor store? Yeah. On the other side. You're on the other side of the bridge, man. What if the bridge is out? I could be hours on Christmas Eve before I get back to the house. Has anyone seen the bridge? The bridge, so in the middle of mystic, is this thing called like the mystic? I don't know what a Bascule is, but it's a Bascule bridge and the people are Mystic, they love this freaking bridge. They, every couple of years, they raise, you know, $8 jillion so they can repaint it. You know what I mean? And, uh, what happens is, is that, is that the 2 sides of Mystic are separated by this
+
+[15:34] drawbridge, and all it takes is like one knucklehead with, with a boat that's too tall and a
+
+[15:40] horn, and the traffic's tied up forever in the middle of town. You know what I mean? Anyway, anyway. I'm not going into this. Maybe, I don't know. Depends. mean, we'll be down in town. We'll be walking around on Christmas Eve, depending. It's gonna be crappy weather, though, I think. Yeah, I don't know what the weather's going to be. The party's Friday. So if you're around and you want to come, you know, I'll hit you up on the Twitter. Oh, yeah, hit me up. I might actually still be down in Chester on the Friday because, believe this or not, this New York City schools are running on Friday. And then, like, they didn't even cancel after school programs. So Dax has basketball freaking practice. so stupid. Anyway, let us, if I don't make it, let us know how the cocktail is. Speaking of enemies of quality. Oh, yeah, Nastasia, pump it. We made our shirts finally. Yeah, anime of quality shirts. So go online and look up. I'll just go to bookerandax.com. slash enemy of quality, and you could see Nastasia and myself, the queen and kings of anti-quality.
+
+[16:37] You want to take another call? Yeah, sure. Call her. You on the air. Yeah, hi, Dave. Fashion, Merry Christmas. Happy Christmas, Hanakwanza, whatever we call it now. Oh, nice. I had a question about breezing. Okay. In lots of different recipes from all over, There's different temperatures for grazing, and some of
+
+[16:58] them, and some people prefer lower temperature braising like 200 to 225 degrees versus 350 degrees.
+
+[17:06] Right. Um, the temperature of the liquid inside the braids can't get above the boiling point. Is it beneficial or not to do a lower temperature braze or a higher temperature braze. And does the food really interact that much with the radiant
+
+[17:26] heat different? Uh, I think a lot's gonna depend on exactly how you, um, how the whole thing's configured, right? So like, if you have a braising vessel in an oven. And the vessel is sealed, then, uh, anything, in other words, like the lids on it or it's got foil on top of it. Uh, any temperature in the oven, uh, assuming the oven is accurate, above 212 degrees, uh,
+
+[17:55] Fahrenheit is going to cause the liquid and eventually the meat and or vegetables inside to reach 212
+
+[18:03] Fahrenheit because there'll be no evaporative cooling. If you remove the lid or allow there to be evaporation, you know, and they're in between zones, right? A levels amounts of evaporation, then the meat and the product will evaporatively cool itself, and so it will
+
+[18:21] not typically reach boiling temperature unless the heat input into the product is so high that the entire thing can actually reach the boiling
+
+[18:34] point. Now, meat will never reach the boiling point until the surface dries out and there's no longer evaporative cooling at the surface. However, the parts of the meat that are underneath the liquid can reach those temperatures if you're in a hot, hot oven. So higher temperatures, like, you know, 35360 can be enough to overcome some of the evaporative cooling effects and push the surfaces of meat up above those kinds of
+
+[19:03] temperatures, whereas lower temperatures in the 200s don't, because you're never going to overcome the kind of evaporative cooling effect to get the full drying and crust formation on the top of the meat.
+
+[19:15] So, um, I mean, I don't know if I'm answering the question. I would say that those lower numbers are, um, you know, safer in terms of
+
+[19:28] like if a piece of meat's poking out, it's going to stay more braised and not kind of crust over as much. You're not going to get above that above that level. But then, uh, you know, you might be in a situation where your heat input is not necessarily fast enough and it just takes a lot longer for you to get, um, your
+
+[19:44] brays done. That said, I really don't think it's going to make too much of a difference. I think your main difference is going to be if you seal it or if you don't. If you don't seal it, the difference between a 250 and a 325 is going to be kind of minimal, I think. It might just take a little longer, one way or the other, because it's going to go above 212. Uh, you know, all of the interesting stuff happened what happens once there's evaporative cooling. Sure, no, I was kind of going along with that. It's also interesting to see how fast. How fast does college is in, another connection, does you break down? Is that just the result of the time and the temperature or actually a higher temperature? Has the result of doing that faster? If it's sealed per se, you don't really care about the, the, the meat being exposed above the liquid, let's say, and you don't care about that, but just breaking
+
+[20:34] down connected issue in college. Yeah, so the hotter it is, the faster it'll happen. like all other things equal, right? So assuming you have the same, um, so to convert collagen uh, to gelatin requires uh, heat, time uh, and uh, moisture,
+
+[20:57] right? So, like, obviously, it's hard to break down collagen and beef
+
+[21:00] jerky, uh, because there's no moisture there. You know what I mean? So it's, uh, it's like a combination kind of of of all those things. typically there's enough moisture and meat to have it happen. But then you're looking at, and also moisture is being released from the meat as it heats. So there might there might be some effect in in higher temperature situations as opposed to like sub- sub-boiling temperatures where there might be. So, in other words, like, take a look when you're doing low temperature work, like, let's say you were going to do a short rib, let's say, for like 3 days and you're going to cook it at, um, like 55,
+
+[21:39] 56 uh, Celsius, which is, you know, down in the kind of meat, high medium rare range, uh, or medium rare range. So if you're going to cook down there, the connective tissue never breaks down. Now, I mean, it breaks down, it gets soft, but it doesn't kind of melt out. And so I don't, I'm actually researching this now. I shouldn't talk about it, but the next book's going to be on low temperature cooking. for probably for more home applications. Not probably. It's going to be on low temperature cooking in home applications. Uh, but the, um, one of the interesting things is the texture of meat in those situations kind of stays the same, uh, structurally, even though it
+
+[22:17] gets uh, softer and softer. And so it's probably some combination of, um, the
+
+[22:22] collagen, not maybe breaking down as much because there was not as much moisture release because the meat doesn't squeeze out all of its juices as much because you didn't overcook the meat, right?
+
+[22:32] Which kind of how you say is a nice thing to have, if that's what you want to have. If it's a lot of stuff for low temperature cooking, that people are saying, well, this is, at this higher temperature. This is like a breeze, but it isn't exactly the same thing because it's not high enough to actually constrict that meat tissue and melt all that college.
+
+[22:52] It's just softening it and breaking it down. Right. It doesn't actually, it doesn't actually render it in the same way. If that doesn't render out. You know, the gelatin, the gelatin doesn't suffuse the entire piece of meat. And in fact, if what you want is a traditional
+
+[23:09] braise, and that you go in and expecting a traditional braise, in general, most people don't want the low temperature product in that case.
+
+[23:18] in that case. So what's like the temperature that that sort of stuff uses and melts out? Well, that's an interesting question. I'll probably have to do some research on that. But in general, in my head, right, there is such a time penalty for doing long-term, low temperature work that roughly
+
+[23:40] anytime I go above like 60,
+
+[23:45] four, 65 Celsius, I'm just like to hell with it. And I go all the way up into the 80s. So when you're in the 80s, right, you don't have to worry about overcooking things, you
+
+[23:56] also your water bath isn't boiling over a lot, makes it convenient. See, if you're actually doing bag work, uh, in boiling water, it can be a pain in the butt because the bags can touch the sides of your, um, I think
+
+[24:09] melt and, and you get like really fast evaporation at boiling, you have to replenish your water constantly.
+
+[24:15] So typically, like when I want a traditional high temperature, um, texture for something like a confit, um, which I like doing in bags a lot because it's easier to store, uh, you know, they last a lot longer. Um, it's, you know, a lot, uh, you don't have to have that kind of excess of liquid or fat. You can do, you know, with very little amount of fat and or liquid and braise. It's not quite the same because you don't get any evaporation, but I do those in
+
+[24:41] the in the 80s because I want that traditional texture. And once you're up like 82, 83, you know, you're going to start, you know, you're going to get those kind of traditional textures. Very cool. I appreciate it. All right, cool. Okay. Let me see. We had a comment, Anastasia, about our pine nut conversation from Carlos. Uh, I want to start by thanking you guys for the hours of uh, entertainment on the show. entertainment. Show actually makes me look forward to my commute, doubly so, and Mr. McGee drops by. We love having the Herald. That was good, man. Like Heaven Herald. Also, he knows all this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, good man. I was very relieved when you mentioned that the taste bud blowout pine nuts are a specific Chinese nut. In New Mexico. We eat pine nuts like crazy, pretty much year round, but especially so in the winter months. We eat roasted salted pine nuts in a similar fashion to sunflower seeds. Pop a handful in your mouth, one by one, crack the shell, and enjoy the nut and spit out the shell, and repeat. Do you ever see people like eating the sunflower seeds sitting there spitting the... In the subway? Oh my god. people, jeez, Louise. Constant assault, New York. It's just, you know, it's like... Like, why would you think that that's okay to sit there and spray shells out of your mouth on the freaking subway?
+
+[25:55] Why would you think that's okay? We're living in a society. Yeah, you don't do that kind of crap, right? Okay, let me ask you a question, because my family, people in my family are on the other side of this from me. Okay, so are you guys familiar? I don't like, uh, okay, remember, I'm a wasp. I'm a 40, what am I, five-year-old wasp, okay? Now, to bear that in mind. So, like, I don't like kind of, like, I don't like dueling music. I don't like hearing 2 different stereos at the same time bothers me. And it bothers me in like public situations where I have to listen to somebody else's music.
+
+[26:35] Because, I mean, like odds are, like if I was listening to my house, I would probably like it because I like all forms of music, but it's just kind of like, why do I have to listen to this guy's music for?
+
+[26:43] You know what I'm saying, Stas? Are you the same way? Because why? Because I feel like, you know, I don't get to go over there and like, I don't know, harangue them. Maybe your presence just harangues them and you don't know it, though. Well, I'm sure my presence harangues them, but that's whole, that's the whole bargain you live, make for living in New York City. Anyway, that's not my point. So my point is, is that there's these, like, the new thing is bicyclers have,
+
+[27:07] like, uh, boom boxes, but there are these new mini boom boxes, like the new Bluetooth things, and they strap them to their
+
+[27:15] personage, to their bicycles. And they zip around the town playing loud music on their bicycles, right? Now, the reason is that they want you to know that they are coming so that you don't hit them and or walk out in front of them, which I totally
+
+[27:29] understand because how many times have you had some idiot walk in front of you when you're riding a bike? They walk, they look the wrong freaking way and they step right into a freaking bike lane, and then you're the bad person because you slammed into an 80-year-old lady. Yeah. Is it your fault? Anyway, but like my point is, is it, so where do you, where do you feel about the music blaring on the bicycle? Uh, I've only heard like old school R&B on the bikes. My brother has James Brown going 100% of the time. Dave, what do you think about the bicycle music? I think that's fine. It's more like when it's in an enclosed space, like a subway car that it bothers me. out on the street is whatever. What are your thoughts about those idiots who they invest in a giant stereo for their car, but they don't invest in enough automotive adhesive to glue all the parts of their trunk
+
+[28:21] down? And so their entire car sounds like it's rattling itself to pieces when the bass drum
+
+[28:26] hits and they can't hear it because it's so loud. Their hearing is so distorted out on the inside of the car that they don't know that their that their car sounds like a baby rattle. Yeah, I mean, enemies of quality, what else can you say? That's right. If you're going to play music that loud, which I endorse heartily, then, you know, have the decency to have some, you know,
+
+[28:45] quality stereo work done on your vehicle. No? Anyways. Um, speaking of James Brown, I had a request to do some James Brown, uh, but I'm not, I do own James Brown's Christmas album on, on, not on vinyl, I wish I don't
+
+[29:00] know a vinyl owner on a cassette. Before I finish the pine nut thing, Nastasi, what are your favorite Christmas girls? Oh, uh, I like the temptations, Rudolph the
+
+[29:08] rednosed reindeer. Really? Really? Because of the base guy who comes in? Yeah. I forget what part he has. It's pretty awesome. Yeah, I don't know. I listened to it just the other day. Dave, you? Donny Hathaway this Christmas. Yeah? Okay, here's what I like. I like, uh, I like Mahalia Jackson's Hark the Herald Angels saying because Mahalia Jackson knows how to, like, belt some crap out. You know what I mean? First of all, let's just stipulate and Nastasi, the entire, the entire Andrew sisters, the entire Andrew sisters, Bing Crosby album, is like as, consider that one song. That's like one whole song, all the way from Adeste Fideles or Silent Night, all the way through to Meli Kaliki Maka, that whole album is like a song. And it's like a classic, right? But I'm I like Feliz Navidad. I like Holly Jolly Christmas. like that. I know I'm forgetting one of my favorites. Oh, I like Perry Como's version of home for the holidays. Mm-hmm. Anything that can cool. Really? You're not King Cole kind of a Christmas? Oh he's great. Yeah? All right. Anyway. James Brown's Christmas is interesting. Yes, I will. James Brown's Christmas album is interesting because he's incredibly crazy. He has a song called Soulful Christmas Tree. I think this is a song where he sits around and basically says that Merry Christmas to the people that bought his album and saw his show. And that's it. He's like, I love you because he bought my album. It's on my show. Jim Rander, honey. All right, call her, you're on the ear. Is he? Is she or she on the other? Hello? Hello? Hi, how you doing? Is it me? What? Yeah, you're on the air. All right, awesome. Dave, what's up, man? Thanks. Nothing, how's it going? I'm cool, man, calling from Westchester. Nice. Um, you know, so I had a question about Guanchali. I went to make Guancshali last year. I had a £5 of pork cheeks sitting around, so I go on chalified them. Nice. Um, and mid, mid, mid Guanchalian, I got a little nervous, uh, food safety nervous, I guess, and I decided
+
+[31:14] to, uh, throw them in my dehydrator to speed up the Guanchalifying process.
+
+[31:19] Ooh, really? And they didn't come out bad, but it definitely did something of the texture where the fat had like a snappiness to it. And, uh, you know, they weren't the best, they weren't the best thing in the world. Right. Um, but I got thrilled. So I got another £5 of Guancelli or Pork Cheeks, and I wanted to try it again. And one is the shapest way. So I did like a weak soul cure, and then I then I hung them on my porch. The thing that got me nervous was, the porch cabin during the day was getting a little warm, and it was kind of melting my fat a little bit and all that. Yeah, where's the best spot to hang these suckers up? Where I'm going to get consistent? Did you, did you, did you, did you salt them flat and then roll them after some of the initial
+
+[32:05] cure or what do you do? Are you curing them fine? I had him like sitting at a half inch or saw it with like a half inch of salt on top of them. Right. And so then after you hang them, they're already basically an equalization stage and they're pretty thin, right? I mean, they're pretty thin and like most of it's fat. I think you're all right. I mean, like I just, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would keep it a little bit cooler. Are you a spice on your Guanchale guy or not? You know what? I'm pretty sure I had like allspice or juniper, but I can't remember them. Yeah, I like that. I'm a huge Guancali fan. I wouldn't worry about it overly much. Look, it's thin and it's very high in fat and, um, you added some curing salt to it. Nothing bad, I think, is gonna happen, right? Okay. So I could just let it rip. It's okay if that is rendering out a little bit. Midday. Dripping on my... I mean, uh, I mean, from a safety standpoint, yeah. I mean, like, you don't want, you don't want that happening. I don't think. You know what I mean? Like, but like, uh, I think from a safety standpoint, you should be all right. Okay, cool. All right. Cool. Hey, speaking of fat. I took, you know how, like, you know how, like, different pork fads have different textures, depending where they come from? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, uh, one of the things I did in the spinzle is I took, it's not, I haven't posted it yet, but one of the things that
+
+[33:25] is the centrifuge I'm working on. One of the things I did was I took regular rendered lard, right? So regular rendered large really hard to bake with because it's too unsaturated, right? It's not like the back, you know, the back lard or the leaf lard or any of that stuff. So what I did was I took regular lard and spun it in the spinsaw with some ice cubes around the outside of the
+
+[33:44] of the bowl, and I was able to get hard lard out of it that I can bake pastry with and then a
+
+[33:51] soft like kind of pig oil that I can use for frying stuff. Pre sweet. best biscuits, right? Oh, best biscuits, not Nastasia cares, but yeah, best pie. Like lard biscuits, lard pie. I mean, there's, look, lard was the primary fat for a whole group of people, right?
+
+[34:11] I mean, like, you know, butter was relatively expensive. Um, and, you know, uh, you know, nut oils and or olive oils were not available to, like, you know, a lot of people
+
+[34:21] in uh, in the north of Europe. So in America. And so Lard was the stuff. You know what I mean? Like Lard was the way to go. Lord. Also, my large piece is kind of extra trimming the fat off of briskets and things like that, just to render it
+
+[34:37] down, because what you end up doing, you end up spending a ton of money on olive oil, you know, but meanwhile, you're throwing away perfectly good cooking fat every time you trim a piece of pork or a piece of beef. Yeah, and I think if you do that stuff, render it down, you're good to go, right? Yeah, I do the pressure. I do pressure cooker rendering, typically, because it's easier. I mean, I think like saving fat, I think it's a bad rap because the only fat that most people save is bacon fat and the problem with
+
+[35:04] bacon. Yeah. Yeah, you're shot, you're shot. Yeah, I pressed the corn beef for Christmas. You trim the fat off the brisket. You got yourself 2 weeks worth of fries fat. Yeah? Definitely true. All right, save the fat, my brother. and everything, all right? All right, cool. Let us know how they go on Charlie turns out. It's true. save the fat. The problem with bacon fat people, obviously, is that it goes rancid fairly quickly. So, and it's been exposed to such a high temperature during the bacon cooking. It's got like all salt in it. There's everything that can assault fat is happening inside of bacon fat. So cooking something in bacon fat right away is delicious, but saving the bacon fat for a long time can be problematic because it develops
+
+[35:53] rancidity very quickly. You think, oh my god, Nastasia, you're wearing the shirt. Nastasi Lopez is wearing her, for those of you that don't know. There's there's one thing on earth that Nastasia loves, and that is the rank and bass production of Rudolph the
+
+[36:11] red-nosed reindeer. Uh, and she is wearing, so in that production is uh, an abominable snowman, but he's not called the, he's called the
+
+[36:22] Abominable or the Bumble. And she is wearing a bumble sweater. And in fact, not just that, but your shirt is incorrect because he has teeth. And he's hanging the mistletoe. So the bumble who hangs the missile or the, you know, mistletoe stuff is a toothless bumble. So, you know. I can black those out. This is not the official rank and bass Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. Right, but it's the only one we can afford to play. I have you know, it's Burl Ives that sings Rudolph the
+
+[36:55] Red-nosed Reindeer. We can only afford the general MIDI version, sorry. But Bert Lives is dead. Can't I guess we still have to pay him? Somebody still owns it. The ranking a bass corporation. Wow. goes way up the way up the chain. Wow. rough. Dude, like Nothing sacred. Let me tell you something. Like, Christmas music with, like, anything midi is like, unless it's like Super Mario Brothers, like all the soul has been removed. You know what I mean? Anyway, back to Carlos and the Pine Nuts. You pop a handful in your mouth, one by one, crack the shell, enjoy the nut, spit it out. If you drive through New Mexico and Arizona, you'll see vans parked on the side of the road with
+
+[37:36] Piñon painted on the side in big red letters, they fetch a pretty penny. haven't been to Arizona in like 2 decades. I need to go back. I love the way Arizona smells sometimes. Like the desert has a very particular smell, especially if it's a little moist, if it's not like one of those
+
+[37:51] plus hot days they have over there. Uh, they fetch a pretty penny, usually upwards of $20 a pound. I have a friend who sells them and they roast them in a big metal drum over an open
+
+[38:00] flame similar to how we roast green chilies. I'll be in New Mexico for the holidays and we'll make sure to replenish my stash. If you're interested in trying some. I can part ways with a bit and send you some to drive. I'd love it. Yeah, please. I find that tastes better than pre-shelled European and Chinese from the store, but I know I'm biased. Happy holidays and best of luck with the spins off. Thanks, yeah. By the way, people, by the way, just, you know what? Pre-order the freaking spin zone. Will you pre-order the freaking spins all? Will you pre-order? Will you do me a favor and when you pre-order the freaking spin, so listen, we need enough people who are early adopters who have the
+
+[38:35] cash. Look, what do you need me to see it do? What do you need? What do you need? I've done citrus. I've done tomatoes. I've done coffee. I've done fat fractionation. I've done, uh, what else, Nastasia? I've done like gin. I've done I've done yogurt and balanne. I done butter. You've done chocolate butter. I've done, I've done, what do you need? You're gonna do wheatgrassing. Oh, wheat grass taste terrible. Let me tell you something. I'll give you guys thing. So like, uh, so I was trying to do something for, we're doing the 12 days of Christmas with the spins all 12 days of spinning all, spinning
+
+[39:07] everything. And so I, uh, Paul Adams, who's, you know, helping us out. He was like, uh, six, six cheeses d-weighing. And then you get like ricotta. I was like, oh, genius. So I get ricotta, but I'm doing it, not doing it for taste. So I don't go to Di Palo's and get the nice ricotta. I go to, you know, the supermarket and buy garbage brand parade, you know, garbage ricotta. I put it in, I spin it. Nothing. I look at it and 0 my god, the ricotta is so heavily stabilized with Xanthan,
+
+[39:37] Guar, and LBG that it doesn't get rid of any of its way, even when it's like, you know what I mean? I wish I wish I had my 4000 G centrifuge running or I would have thrown it in that just to see whether it could do anything to it. But it was like so hyper stabilized. So I was so pissed. Then I took wheat grass, right? So wheat grass is poison. I took wheat grass and I put it in my Vita Prep. I hit it with every enzyme in the book, right? And I got actually a good amount of wheatgrass juice out of it, and I tasted it, and I was like, yes, the spins all can do this, but you should not do this. I was like, this is not something you should do. This stuff tastes. But people do it. This is horrific. And it's a lot of work. I mean, like, in other words, you take, you take $5 worth of wheatgrass and you get one little shot out of that $5 worth of freaking
+
+[40:25] wheatgrass. So you're spending $5 and you're working hard to get something that tastes poisonous. Like, why would anyone do that? Do you like this stuff? No. No, I don't. You know what it does? It smells good. It smells almost like fresh pressed olive oil. It's got like a kind of green. I think you're supposed to hold your nose when you drink it, right? Or, you know what? Or I'll only drink stuff that tastes good. How about that instead? Michael writes in on cider. I like fresh cider and hard cider, but my favorite is in between. The stuff you get when you leave fresh cider in the fridge too long and it just gets slightly effervescent alcoholic and less sweet. Conveniently for my stingy and lazy butt, the cheap pasteurized cider with potassium sorbet works great. I ferment it with champagne yeast, and it stops right about at the point I like. Questions. Any safety concerns when bottling it compared with drier, more alcoholic cider? I expect the sorbait and atmosphere to be even more hostile to mold than yeast, and the acid should inhibit bacterial pathogens, but I'm still concerned about the sugar.
+
+[41:25] Ah, you know, look, I looked it. So, remember, there's keying is a whole technique of making cider specifically where the fermentation is
+
+[41:34] arrested and there's sugar left in the bottle. And I couldn't find any records of safety issues with Keith Cider anywhere. I couldn't find anything, nothing. Anyway, is the yeast killed or just inhibited by the sorbet? Can I expect priming the bottle of sugar to restart fermentation or do I just need to bottle it before primary fermentation ends? Uh, okay. And then how come pasteurized cider stays cloudy forever? Well, raw cider sediments out eventually,
+
+[42:03] gelatinize, gelatinized apple starch? That's the other question. That's how I let you know that that's a question part. Thanks, Michael. Here's my feelings on this. First of all, I don't think it's starch. I think something happens with the pectin where it doesn't settle out once it's cooked, although I don't know. It was interesting to look at it. It could be a starch thing, but I doubt it. I do know that even in a centrifuge, pasteurized apple cider is more of a pain, much, much, much more of a pain, uh, to filter out
+
+[42:29] than uh, or to sentiment out than um, fresh apple juice or uh, uncooked uh, apple, you know, what you would call cider. It's much, much more difficult. I had always described it to because a lot of our apples don't really contain any starch because if they did contain starch, some apples do. But, you know, most apples don't have that much starch, otherwise they'd be difficult for me to clarify at all because starch doesn't do that much. So I know for a fact that cooked apple juice can be a pain in the butt. I've always ascribed that to pecknin, although I could be wrong because I've never actually investigated it. I don't really have the tools to investigate it. Um, As to your other thing, what's going on with the sorbets? So, sorbet does a number of things. First of all, the amount of inhibition that sorbet
+
+[43:13] provides for yeast and other things growing is highly dependent on the alcohol concentration. So the higher the uh, alcohol concentration, the less sorbet is required
+
+[43:24] for um, for uh, inhibition, uh, for growth uh, inhibition. Also, sorbet tends to sorbet won't necessarily kill, this is what I've read. Sorbet won't necessarily or doesn't kill yeast. What it does is prevent yeast from growing. So, um, and you know, prevent them from, uh, you know, doing their thing. At a certain level, it will also, I think, you know, kind of wipe them out. But, you know, at the levels we're using it, it's an inhibition to growth. So if you if you take a champagne yeast and you pitch it into a starter,
+
+[43:59] right? So that the yeast can become active and you have all these yeast cells that are alive, they can keep fermenting in the sorbet up to the level where the alcohol
+
+[44:07] in the sorbet match and they stop working, and then fermentation won't restart at that point.
+
+[44:14] So I think you might have problems, adding more sugar and getting it to start again, unless you pitched a fresh starter with maybe with a little bit of sugar, in which case you might be able to get it to go
+
+[44:26] again. But that's my feeling, and that's kind of how the sorbet works. So a sorbet with sorbet. I think that your kind of auto-kieving situation here is due, uh, in keeping, the way it works, is you have uh, pectin, the pectin traps the yeast nutrients, and the
+
+[44:43] yeast, the lack of yeast nutrients means that they can't keep producing up to their finished
+
+[44:48] level. So they're inhibited by the alcohol earlier than they otherwise would be, and you're left with residual sugar. Um, and I think once they do that at the end, they hit it with sorbet just to stop anything else from growing in it. But in your case, you're not doing that, you're just
+
+[45:02] pre-inhibiting it with sorbait and letting it ferment up to where it gets to. So anyway, I would assume that different brands of cider will have different interactions, depending on how much sorbet they put into it. anyway. Caesar Delgado writes in about beer. Hey, Nastasia, Dave, Dave, and Guest in case there is one. Long time listener, 1st time emailer. I'm wondering what the maximum temperature this spins all can handle. I homebrew beer and was wondering if I could use it to spin out all the hops and other gunk that come out of the kettle before passing the beer through the chiller. From what I know, the cold break, which are the solids that precipitate after chilling
+
+[45:36] beer, are good for fermentation, but all of the hot breaks, solids that form in the kettle due to boiling, and hop residues are best kept out of the
+
+[45:44] carboy. I figure the spins all as continuously would be great for doing that if it can survive boiling hot wort, that is, as well as anyone try to spin the yeast out from bottle conditioned beers to harvest the yeast on the prototype.
+
+[45:55] I figured you could run Star Sand through it, which is a sanitizer, and Stasi now that you give a rat behind. for a couple of minutes to make sure it's sanitized and then pour the bottle of drags into it. It might be a fun experiment for yeast wranglers. In fact, um, uh, in fact, Caesar is from Caesar Delgado. In fact, I have some really nice beers that were sent to me by Blapins to spin
+
+[46:21] out. I drank one. It was delicious. The name, for some reason, just went right out of my head. But I'm going to try to harvest the other 2 yeast, but the thing is, I have to find something to pitch it into, and then like put it into a liquid and mail it back up so someone can repitch it and see whether it works.
+
+[46:35] But yes, I am considering doing it. I'm going to do that probably right after I get back from New Year's. The other thing is, uh, I think it'll handle, it's not going to be 100% boiling by the time it hits the rotor, uh, because it has to go through the peristaltic pump first. You're going to have to get rid of any big residue because like leaves tend to kind of get clogged in the peristaltic pump as they go through, but anything smaller than like
+
+[47:00] leaf, like little fine particles is fine, like albumen particles all fine. And it should handle it fine because this dishwasher is safe. I've run, uh, I've run boiling water through it to do, I forget what I was
+
+[47:12] doing. What was I doing? I was running boiling water. Oh, for nut milk. I basically, the way I did nut milk because I did a very, very stiff nut milk and then let that go through because I didn't want to have to do double work, you know, to blend
+
+[47:24] twice. I blended all the nuts in the Vitaprep once, sucked it through the spins all, and then just put boiling water through it, not boiling,
+
+[47:30] but like, you know, simmer, simmer, I boiled it in the microwave and then just pumped it through to kind of steep out the rest of the nut milk products to make nut milk.
+
+[47:37] So at least in the prototype, and the prototype is less tough than the real one. So yeah, it should handle those temperatures just fine. Uh, okay. Uh, we have uh, 2 questions from Patrick. Patrick says, how much time have we got? Yeah, 2 minutes. All right. Thanks for holding the show together. I'm going through the back catalog and have begun to develop a theory. This is about you, Nastasia, that the presence of a stern organized woman might be the best treatment option for the management of adult ADHD. Without your, this is Eunastasia's influence. I fear that Dave might just be holed up in a kitchen lab somewhere, filling up notebooks with information that would otherwise never see the light of
+
+[48:14] day. That said, I think a lot of us listeners would like to hear you chime in more on the show. You can see yourself organized assessment. Stern, I agree with. Stern, I'll agree with. Speaking of Stern, last week we had we had sun chokes here. After we had the McGee conversation. Stasi went out and ordered a giant sunchoke pile of sunchokes. And did you get your butt sun soaked? Yeah, my stomach was not so good. You were fine? I mean, yeah, that was fine. Really? Yeah. Yeah, that was fine. I mean, you know, I'm an animal, though. Yes, that's true. Anyway, here are the questions we have from Patrick. When I'm reducing liquids, I frequently see no visible evaporation when the
+
+[48:56] saucepan is on the flame, but then a ton of evaporation as soon as I pull it off. What's going on there? Is it actually invisibly evaporating while more on the flame, uh, on the flame or does it speed up reduction to pull the pan and stir periodically, which seems to be how I get maximum visible
+
+[49:10] evaporation? I think what's going on here is that, um, when you have it over the flame, you have a lot of hot vapor coming around the sides of the pan and up, and you are inhibiting the condensation of the water that's coming off of the pan because of the extra
+
+[49:27] heat. And as soon as you pull it off and you don't have that extra like heat around the outside, it takes a lot less time for the water vapor to
+
+[49:37] condense. And so you see less visible vapor, but there is probably much more actual liquid coming off of
+
+[49:44] it when it's on the flame. It's a guess. What do you think, status? Yes. Okay. She's like, I wasn't listening. I'm texting somebody. Second, and probably more theoretically, I often get preposterously hung over from drinking craft
+
+[49:55] beers for a long time. I assume this was just a pure rate of alcohol consumption issue that was getting fuzzed up by variable ABVs
+
+[50:01] and serving sizes. I've been paying closer attention to actual total alcohol consumption and running into situations where I've woken up feeling like crap from the craft beer alcohol equivalent of
+
+[50:10] 2.5 80 proof shots, which would normally not even register the next morning for me. Any idea what's going on here scientifically. Thanks for doing the show. I try hard to redeem my morning commute with informative but reasonably entertaining things to listen
+
+[50:23] to, and y'all nail that balance, like a steak with just enough fat on it. Let me answer your question before your sign off thing. I think, look, the cause of hangovers has been studied kind of extensively recently. I don't think it's 100% determined. I haven't looked at the research in the past like 3 or 4 years, but like prior to that, it was kind of shown that, for instance, hangovers are not necessarily dehydration related because people used to think that it was dehydration. Instead, it's just in mimics kind of what goes on with dehydration. One of the other theories is that things that are higher in congeners, right? Like, so things like fusel oils, higher alcohols, other fermentation things can lead to a angle. I don't think it's necessarily been proven. However, if you're drinking craft beers, so when you're not drinking a craft beer, you're probably drinking a lager. Lager is going to happen at low temperatures, produces relatively fewer congeners, fewer higher alcohols, fewer
+
+[51:14] ass, few of all these things. So, like, higher temperatures, more during fermentation,
+
+[51:21] which, I guess, can happen in a lot of craft beers and aren't being lagered, right? Because they're doing it more at ale temperatures. We're talking about ales here. They can develop a lot more of these congeners, which we perceive as being good taste, but maybe can lead to hangovers. So, um, maybe that's what's going on. I don't know, take a look at that. Okay, one more thought before I sign off. I have no, I mean, no economic position to drop $700 on kitchen equipment, but I really believe in the project and want to talk about the
+
+[51:47] spinsole and want to see this thing work. Is there any way you could open up the spins all Kickstarter to general supporter donations? I think... Yeah, I think it is, but here's the idea. Here's the Patrick's idea. After all the hours, the cooking issues I listen to, I'd love to drop $20 in the hat and imagine there's a lot of others like me as well. Even better, you could do some sort of raffle where everyone that donates 20 or 50 to the Kickstarter gets entered in a drawing to win a
+
+[52:09] spin zone. It's interesting idea. a Good idea. Anyway, so listen, uh, when you're making your holiday uh, meats, if
+
+[52:16] you were doing a roast, let me just suggest, I said this before, the day before, the day before, don't bother doing anything to it, just get it in a bag. Maybe it already came in a bag. Low temperature cook it. I'm talking about rib roast here. Low temperature cook it through to like 55 degrees, right? For a long time. Reb, you don't have to watch it. Then pull it out, and then the day of, right? Just put it in a high heat and just put a thermometer and as soon as the inside of the meat gets even barely warm, like enough so that it's just service temperature ready. The sucker's done. The sucker's done. You don't have to worry about it. Low temperature for insurance people, for insurance. Not necessarily for cooking effect, but at the holidays, what you want with your fantastically expensive rib roast that you're serving to your whole family and praying it comes out. Is you just don't want it undercooked in the middle and you don't want it overcooked? You just want low temperature for insurance. And with that, Merry Christmas, happy holidays, cooking issues.
+
+[53:40] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's program is brought to you by Corin, a supplier of Japanese chef knives and restaurant supplies. For more information, visit corn.com. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school
+
+[0:26] food, and beyond. Find us at Heritage Radio Network.org.
+
+[0:37] Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Where am I today, sis? Bushwick. Where? Brooklyn. Well, you forgot to say Roberta's Pizza. Oh, yeah. Well, that's a given. This didn't go well. You're supposed to, like, you got a b, b, b. There's no other place. You got a book, you got to do the, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so we have, as usual, in the studio, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, which you referred to in a question as the
+
+[1:13] Hammerus. Did you like that? Did you enjoy the hammeras? Yeah? And we got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? I'm good, how are you? Good. Call in. Oh, by the way, we have a special guest on the phone. Not going to bring him on quite yet, because I got to tell you where who he is. Although actually, you know what? Are you there? Professor, you there? been waiting. Hello? Hello? Hey, so we have a special guest today. Charles, now, Dr. Charles. Now, you're, he pronounces his last name, like 70s disco style, Le Fever, even though it's written Frenchy style, Lefevre, but you go by Le Fever, which I think is like a 1000 times better. What do you think, Stas? Is that true? Yeah, well, see versus the American. Yeah, yeah, seriously American, which I, you know, everyone here knows. I appreciate. And, uh, Professor uh, LaFever or Dr. LaFever is the world's authority on uh, specifically on Oregon truffles, but all things truffle. He is a, you're a mycologist, correct? That is correct? Is there a so specialty within mycology that deals with truffles? Oh, there's not a name for it. You could make one up, though, truffologist. Truffologist. Ectomycorizzolologist. So, uh, so anyway, so, uh, how do you like to be referred to, by the way? what do you want me to call you? Charles, we're fine. Okay, Charles. So, uh, call in all of your truffle related questions. Now, as I said, he actually has a company where he grows, well, he cultivates European tuber
+
+[2:47] Milanus forums in Oregon, as well as collects the local domestic Oregon truffle
+
+[2:53] varieties and searches all over the country and the world for new, interesting, unused, whether they taste good or whether they don't, varieties of truffles.
+
+[3:01] So you can call in any, any and all truffle related or probably
+
+[3:06] any uh, mushroom or mycological uh, questions too. 718-497-2128, that 718-497, uh, 2128.
+
+[3:14] So, let's get, let's just get started right away and let's talk about, kind of, why don't you just give the, by the way, our, our listeners here, the cooking issues crowd is not afraid
+
+[3:24] of uh, of uh, technical jargon or uh, complexities or anything. So you don't need to, like, hold back or anything. Why don't you just basically explain what a truffle is? What is the trouble? Well, truffle the mushroom? And, but, unlike other mushrooms, they depend on animals to disperse their spores.
+
+[3:44] So where mushrooms will disperse their spores in the wind. Truffles depend on animals finding them, digging them up, eating them for their dispersal. So, and that's kind of key to the whole understanding of why truffles are expensive, because they, you know,
+
+[4:00] imagine, they're hidden in the forests, down in the wilderness. It's cold, it's wet, it's dark. And they have to somehow convince some animal to come find them. So, they just, uh, they use every trick they can, to attract animals from a
+
+[4:16] smart way as they can, to eat them, and, uh, it explains why they're expensive. Now, so, so, so, they're underground, and they're like the, the fruiting body of these, uh, these funguses, that fungi, that, uh, live in close proximity to certain tree roots,
+
+[4:35] right? That's right. Yeah, they're in a, in a microizal symbiosis with the tree, that's both, the fungus and the tree need each other. Now, and the hard part about it, right, is is that these truffles, they, they only, they don't grow with the tree for its entire life, right? Don't you have to find like a specific, like this particular one likes to live in trees that are between like 15 and 50 years
+
+[4:58] old? Isn't it like all weird and crazy like this? Yeah, there is ecological succession on the roots of an individual tree. So yes, different truffles live within a different window of time on the roots of the trees. Fortunately, almost all truffles live on very, very young trees, which is why we
+
+[5:14] can open it. So, like, how long? Like, let's say you're going to go, like, okay, hazelnut, like European style, like what are we looking at for the age of the optimum age for truffling up a tree? Well, among my customers, the very youngest trees that have produced ruffles have been 3 years old.
+
+[5:30] Huh, cool. And so you actually, do you, are you sell, uh, like trees with, uh, that have been inoculated with the spores or no? That's correct. Yes. Just so you know, whenever I say spore, Nastasia, my cohorts coast here, like she detests the word spore, maybe you can make her not hate the word spore so much.
+
+[5:48] Or you can think of a sport as a seed. Serves the same function in the lifecycle as the organism that a seat does. Yeah, all right. Any technically, obviously, not correct, but makes her feel better. So, all right. But the, um, so now here's here's my other, uh, thing. So one of your, I don't even know where to start because I got so much to, so much to deal with here on the truffles. So let's go back to this smell. So all truffles, because they all live on your ground. By the way, how far underground are we talking? Oh, anywhere from actually on the surface where you can see them to 3 or 4 feet deep. Three or 4 feet? Can a dog smell 3 or 4 feet deep? Yes, they can. The world's largest Italian light truffles lives down 3 feet deep. I wonder how it tasted. Is there any difference in taste between depth? Is there any sort of, like, in a particular region? So assuming there's a terroir for a region, which I'm going to have you talk about in a minute. Is there any relationship between size and depth and flavor?
+
+[6:47] I don't know that there's any connection between size and flavor or depth
+
+[6:52] and flavor, but there could be. There's certainly a huge variation in flavor from one truffle for the next. Yeah, because it's likely that the host tree has an impact on their flavor, and the region very easily could. But there may be more variability from one truffle to the next, even within a place than there are between places. Really? So, like, a tuber Milanus forum, the perigord truffle, the black truffle. Uh, so if you were to take it, I'm sure you have. I don't know, but if you take one that you've harvested in, um, in
+
+[7:23] Oregon, and you were to somehow take one that was harvested in France and then fly to some point in the middle so that they each were out of the dirt for the exact same length of
+
+[7:33] time, and they were the same, you know, relative size and whatever. Would there be a big difference in flavor between the 2 that were grown in different areas, assuming they were on the same kind of tree substrate? So far, nobody has shown that there is a difference between truffles grown in the natural habitat versus truffles grown outside the natural habitat. But, of course, in different regions of Europe where truffles are grown. Um, there's, there's a perceived difference, like the truffles from Paragord are the most expensive where those from Spain are a little less expensive. Even, and, but, so with something that's this expensive, you would assume that people have figured out tests for faking it,
+
+[8:13] right? Because there's a lot of money involved. Is it, but in other words, like, is it one of these things where it's very hard to tell the difference between where they come from and so you can have people selling one item as another
+
+[8:23] and and Providence just become something you have to kind of take on faith or... Absolutely I think probably, uh, the majority of prefers that are coming from
+
+[8:33] paragord are actually harvested also. Huh. And well, but now the thing is, is that like a lot of things that are faked, right, like wines, you know, there's a difference
+
+[8:43] between, um, fooling an expert and fooling, uh, you know, a relative novice, right? So when you're faking an old Bordeaux, you just have to get close to faking an old
+
+[8:53] Bordeaux, and you're going to 99% of the people aren't going to be able to tell the difference. But sometimes experts can. Sometimes they can't and it has to be done, you know, with actual analysis. But you're saying that even experienced expert truffle eaters and cookers and preparers probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between, let's say, a Spanish, uh, tuber
+
+[9:14] Milanosporum and an actual French one. I think that they probably could not reliably tell where the troubles had come from. But there's one possible exception to that. And that's what the Italian white truffles. Their aroma, their shape, and their color does vary from one place to another. So truffles from certain reasons are flatter, others are rounder. So that might be one clue for the next week. And do you but do you identify? Do you attribute that to local conditions or to basically, like, almost, you know, not cultivars because it's not cultivated, but varieties, in other words. I think it's more like local conditions sound compacted, soil is how rocky the soil is, whether the truffle has to grow around roots and
+
+[9:58] rocks and things. Okay. So now, when it comes to truffles, right? No matter what they are, they all have, uh, I mean, how do you describe it? They all funky, right? So like almost, they're not, the majority of them are supposed to be found by what, by rodents, things like
+
+[10:15] rodents? You know, yeah, the definition of the word truffle is that they depend on the animals to eat, they're to disperse their spores. The term animal is very broad, so it can be flies or slugs or rodents or mammals. They're even examples of birds dispersing them. But, I mean, but in other words, like, they're not shooting for carnivores specifically. So even though dogs are carnivores. They happen to have good noses. They're not aiming at carnivores. Right, so carnivores are the one group of animals that do not eat truffles. not the one, but they're one major group of animals. It does not eat truffles. So why is it that, I mean, dogs, presumably, are good just because their sniffers are good, and you can train them to sniff out
+
+[10:58] anything. And by the way, you train people how to train their dogs, right? We do. Yeah. You sent me some, he actually, he sent me some information on training. I was able to train my black lab that my smaller dog hasn't got taken to training it in general, but I was able to train major big dog, my lab, to find truffle oil anywhere in my
+
+[11:19] yard. But I wasn't able to find any tuber, uh, any truffles on my on my property anywhere. But my, uh, like professor also sent me, or Charles also sent me some, uh, Oregon truffles, which we'll talk about in a minute. And I was able to get major fairly easily to go find the shavings from the outside of it all over my apartment. So it's not like, it's not rocket science. If you have a good dog with a good nose who can follow basic commands, you can train them to go look for truffles on your property, yes?
+
+[11:47] That's, that's right. It's very easy. Yeah. Anyway, so we'll get back to that in a minute. But my main question is, is that why would something that smells animally
+
+[11:57] attract, uh, non-carnivores, herbivores? It seems strange. If I was going to attract an herbivore. If I wanted to track flies I get, right? You want to have some sort of like weird, funky animal carrying something, right? Some process of something doing something funky. But with like a mouse, like, what the heck? Like, why wouldn't it give off some sort of like delicious carrot smell or some sort of like something that you think would attract an herbivore?
+
+[12:24] Why does it give off these kind of animal notes? I mean, other words, my point is, are the animals looking for something other than food? Boom, boom, boom, but then they find it. like, I can eat this thing and they eat it? I mean, what do you think? Yeah, I think all those things. Um, I think it's very likely that the truffles and the animals, the dispersements have could
+
+[12:42] evolve, and the different truffles tune their aroma to the physiology of the animal, they're trying to attract. So different truffles are wildly different from each other. Some of them probably do smell like carrots, others smell like fruit. Some smell like juicy fruit gum. Do you like, do you like juicy fruit gum? Well, you know, it's interesting when you find it out in the, in the dry forest, up a tree line, some beautiful setting. It's an, it's an amazing experience, this smells juicy, gum, gum coming out of the ground. Fair, fair. Now, so now here's the point that I think one of your main, and by the way, you guys should know, anyone who's near Portland or, you know, near that
+
+[13:24] area next week is the Oregon Truffle Festival that actually you host, Charles, that I'm going to be going to along with Peter Meehan from Lucky Peach and Harold
+
+[13:34] McGee. We're all going together and we're going to go out and find truffles and cook with truffles and eat with truffles. And it's a it's a grand old time. And we actually get to meet in person. Um, but, um, So, when you're talking Oregon truffles, one of the things that you get kind of, everyone, if, let's, everyone's
+
+[13:52] biased, and they really like the, you know, the, like the, um, you know, the classic uh, tuber magnetum white truffle from
+
+[13:59] Italy, or the perigore, the uh, black truffle, tuber, Milanosform, and everyone's like, these are the
+
+[14:04] best, everything else blows. And, um, partly, I think one of the, your points is, is that most of the other truffles are not harvested in a way that is going to produce good truffles, which will have you talk about in a minute.
+
+[14:17] But I think the other thing is, is that people don't allow for difference, right? So they can just be these other truffles, like the Oregon truffles that we're going to talk about, they can just be different. They don't have to be the same thing, right? No, they're wildly different. The Oregon white truffle smells like pineapple where the Italian white truffle smells like garlic. They're wildly different from each other and they're used in different ways. And I actually find, in my experience, that people's preferences are kind of set by the truffles that they experience first. By the way, Stasi, are you a big truffle person? You like truffles? I like white ones. I don't like black ones. You don't like black ones? Yeah, she's, well, Nastasia only likes either, either she, she wants the most expensive possible, the most expensive possible one. And by the way, I brought, I have with me the left, what's left of my stash of truffles. We're gonna shave them on top of the pizza that we have here at lunch with the birdas, but I bought the worst, like the crappiest truffle shaver. I went to freaking, uh, Sur La Tab and bought this, and it's made in Italy, but it's just garbage. It's just the garb most garbage truffle shaver. By the way, what we're at before we get into this. Are you a believer in trimming off the outside with
+
+[15:24] a paring knife or are you a rubbing person? Are you, how do you like to do it? I think actually there's an aesthetic appeal to having the rind around the edge of the slice. I keep it on. And then, but do you like, then, do you rub it, or do you don't wash them, right? I mean what do you do? Oh, we do wash them. Yeah. You don't want the soil on the truffles. So you just wash pat dry and then shave? Yes exactly. All right. So you're not a believer in pairing them down. Do you think you're throwing stuff away, or are you just like, you like that, just like that line around it that shows the difference in color, the outside of it? Yeah, that line on the outside is attractive. It's part of, it's actually a quality, uh, criterion, uh, truffle
+
+[16:06] that's, the size that will fit through a shaver. It's nice and round so that you can get that entire line. actually makes that a more attractive trouble. Right. Okay, now, um, now, the two main truffles that you guys are doing, 1st of all, one of them, the Oregon black truffle
+
+[16:20] isn't isn't a tuber species, it's a different species, right? That's right. It's lutangium. And then is that is it like a super closely related or no? They are fairly closely related. As are the desert truffles from North Africa. They're all in... But I noticed... When you cut open the Oregon, uh, black truffle, the winter black truffle, whatever you want to call it,
+
+[16:44] the, the black lines on the inside aren't as distinct as they are on like a Milana sporum. It's like much more it's like gray and cream instead of like like blackish gray and cream. Would you say that's accurate or no? Well, it varies. And actually, the appearance of the interior, the truffle is a good indicator of the quality of the truffle. So the more contrast there is, the more black and white they are, that's a more mature truffle. And the same is true for the Oregon black truffles. But instead of marbling on the interior, Oregon black couples are
+
+[17:14] kind of salt and pepper, speckled, black and white. Right. So maybe that's what I was focusing on. Now, the also the Oregon black truffle, it seemed to have kind of like a lot of more kind of
+
+[17:26] roasty soy kind of notes than the white one did, which, as you say, is
+
+[17:31] more has more kind of fruity, not in a bad way, but like solvent the high notes, right?
+
+[17:37] So the white one is more like a high note truffle and the other one's more like a roasty thing. Do you ever use them together, complement each other? We do use them together often. But actually, you're telling me that you're getting these roasting notes from the black truffle tells me a lot about that truffle. The black truffles have an enormous variety of aromas that they can produce. And when they're youngest, they're very, very fruity and sweet. And they develop more savory, and it's later on. Well, I actually took some of them. It smelled sweeter, and I made an ice cream out of the, I actually thought I was gonna like the black ice cream a lot more than the white one, and the white one was more
+
+[18:13] animally. Also, the white one had more kind of classic mushroom notes to the taste than, uh, I mean, it had those these, like, truffle notes as well, but it also has the white, uh,
+
+[18:22] which I guess what's the, what's the species there. It's uh, uh, tuber Oregonese, right? The, like that one, along with the truffle notes, had some classic mushroom notes, at least when it was made into an ice cream. I mean, do you agree with that or no? Well, yes, and actually, the way you prepare the truffle, uh, can influence whether or not you produce that mushroom
+
+[18:45] aroma, when you, um, So when you 1st said that, it made me think that you had graded the truffle, the shredded it. And the white? I did. In the ice cream, for the white one, yes, I did. That, that mushroomy note is a product of the tissue damage from grading the truffle.
+
+[19:07] Huh, so if you don't want that, you just leave it whole, or... Or just, um, create less surface area. Just use a single slice, something like that. Yeah, I slice the heck out of it, and then macerated it in cream and egg yolk, and then spun it into an ice cream. Yeah. There's an interesting byproduct, which is, uh, that mushroom we, uh, compound is one octane trio, just the smell of mushroom.
+
+[19:31] And it's, uh, is not present in a fresh truck. And it only, it only is produced by the truffle when the truffle is damaged, and it's most noticeable when the truffle is frozen, and it starts, it's an unattractive aroma, it's something you don't really want it. Really? I don't know. I like the taste of mushrooms. I can understand why you're saying, if it's an indicator that someone did something they shouldn't have, right, then I can see how
+
+[19:58] it's, it's kind of like, it's like any trained olive oil person hates any sort of fusty or like any sort of like fermented notes in their, in their olive oil, whereas people who haven't been trained to hate it, don't hate it. You know what I mean? So it's, it's, uh, so in other words, when people, when they're buying, um, like, for instance, expensive white truffles, and they're testing to see whether they've been frozen or not. What they're looking for is a mushroom note. Well, it's obvious when a truffle has been frozen. It's soft, it loses its integrity. The marbling is gone in the interior. frozen truffle was ruined. Is there any way to, is there any good way to freeze a truffle? Like, in other words, like if I were to do it quickly, like in liquid nitrogen? Can I preserve the structure of it without ruining it, or is it just hosed entirely? Well that would be interesting to try. Uh, I imagine it's the ice crystals forming in the interior that, uh, damages the tissue and invokes that enblematic reaction to produce the
+
+[20:50] lenox in trio. Right, well, truffles are quite light very quickly. That might not have a chance to happen. Yeah, but you can't freeze them that quickly because they're so light. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, I imagine that it's fairly poor conductance through a truffle because they have a lot of air in them. So I wouldn't imagine that you could get as rapid a freezing as you would like. So in other words, so when you freeze an egg yolk, uh, slowly, you denature the proteins to the extent that the egg yolk remains solid after it thaws. If you liquid nitrogen freeze in egg yolk, then uh, when you thaw it again, it goes runny because the, it hasn't had that, it didn't have the time to complex as it was going down as it was
+
+[21:27] freezing. And so it comes back basically to its raw state again. But, you know, egg yolks can be egg yolks are very high in water and dense. And so it's fairly easy to freeze them fairly quickly. I imagine a truffle, which is much, much lighter than water,
+
+[21:43] uh, would um, probably not be as easy to freeze quickly. Although we could test it. Hell, we could test it. Yeah, that'd be interesting. The one thing, though, I think it's important to know, is that the value of a truffle is the aroma itself. Not the body of the organism. So, if you capture the aroma in something else, that's the most authentic,
+
+[22:04] authentic way to store truffles, at least to store the experience of the trouble. So to capture that arona in some kind of fatty food, say eggs, or
+
+[22:14] cheese, or meat? Right. It's the best way to store it, rather than freezing it. I tell you, my whole refrigerator smelled like them when the stuff was in
+
+[22:24] there, and we've become accustomed to it now in the studio, but we have them here in the studio inside of their plastic containers, and they still, the aroma. The aroma goes right through a plastic deli container and like into, I mean, there's, you know, fills up the whole, the whole area. Now, but to go back to the aroma and like how much days versus cooking. So the argument against, uh, what's the, uh, the truth to sheen, the Chinese truffle, which truffle is that? Sorry, the bad connection. You said, well, the difference between the, no, no, like, what truffle variety? So one time when I was in France, I went to Rongis, which is their market and I was talking to their truffle guys. Uh, and then they they showed me these, like, basically these Chinese truffles, which they
+
+[23:06] called Troof de Sheen. And then the guy said to me, he's like, they smell fine when they're, you know, in this box. He says, but they lose everything when you use them and so they're relatively useless. So what about the, 1st of all, what species is the, is the Chinese truffle that they're selling? And secondly, what about this? Like, uh, they, they don't maintain their odor when they're being
+
+[23:29] used um, in a culinary sense, and is there just strictly like more odorant to stay around in like a melanosporum or uh, magnetum than there is in some of these other species?
+
+[23:41] Oh, that Chinese truffles are interesting. That's a complex species. There's vast diversity in China that people are discovering right now. So there are any number of species it could be. The most likely species is tuber indicum, which is very closely related to the French
+
+[23:56] black tuber Milanus forum. But the reason, I think the primary reason, that they have such a bad reputation, and their prices are so low. is because of the way they're harvested, they're harvested with rakes, like potatoes, and another difference between a truffle and a mushroom.
+
+[24:16] So, the truffle needs to be ripe in order to have its culinary value. So, like, a fruit in that sense. It's, uh, there's nothing to gain by harvesting them immature the way there is with a porcini or cintrelle. So you have to let them mature. And each truffle ripens at a different time over a three month period typically. So an indiscriminate way of harvesting them produces mostly immature truffles that have no culinary value. So that's the primary problem. So, and you say that's the same problem with Oregon truffles, right? The majority of domestic truffles that are harvested, are not
+
+[24:53] harvested using dogs or other form of animals smelling, right? Right. Right. That is the, that is the main reason. Oregon truffles, historically, it's been inexpensive and unappreciated. And so, you're on kind of, like, a mission, you and your cohorts are on a mission to basically say, look it, um, we're
+
+[25:15] gonna sell these ones that are harvested by dogs. Now, uh, not harvested by, but c- found by, hunted by uh, by dogs. But, you know, one of the problems I've noticed with lots of things in this country, for instance,
+
+[25:28] country ham is to comes to mind because it's something I've worked with a lot, is that when you don't have an easy way for consumers to know what they're purchasing,
+
+[25:39] right? It's hard to get the extra value on top
+
+[25:44] of what you're doing. So, you know, and I was talking to the country hand producers. I was like, look at, you know, country ham is hugely widely variant qualities. And, you know, the definition is basically just based on a particular procedure. Do you have some sort of label or consortium or some sort of way that a consumer could very easily tell, you know,
+
+[26:07] this, this one other than assuming that they have knowledge and they can smell it and they'd be like, this one has a great aroma and this one is relatively
+
+[26:15] useless. Uh, is there some sort of like way that you guys are trying to get together to
+
+[26:20] uh, let the consumer know what's what? There's a lot of conversation about that. But it hasn't happened. There's no certification yet. But it is obvious. The difference is obvious. Anyone can tell. It's the difference between a truffle that has no aroma and a truffle that has lots of aroma. Right, but someone could, someone could have a jar full of rice and truffles at their place, have like one or
+
+[26:43] two ones that are decent, that happen to be decent, and it stinks up the whole truffle jar, and then you buy the one, you know, that got raked
+
+[26:51] out and you're host, right? I mean, like, you know, you take it home and you're ruined. That's right. You have to sniff every single truffle. Each truffle needs to have a strong aroma of its own. Just smelling the truffles in a jar is not good enough. Now, how long, like, like, uh, so how long do you think these suckers last? Like, how long does one of these last verses? Is there any difference in keeping time for an Oregon truffle versus for, like, one of the European varieties or no? Oh, well, there probably is. And it really depends on what characteristics you're looking at. European trouble will stay intact longer, but it loses its aroma
+
+[27:26] just as fast. So in terms of their real value, their culinary value, the shelf lives are comparable, and it's just a few days long. By the time the truffle is a wheat gold, it's lost most of its aroma. Even under refrigeration. Even in refrigeration, uh, and regardless of what species it is, but there are exceptions. I mean, we've managed to keep trestles in great condition for 10 days or 2 weeks. It can happen. And the storage conditions make a huge difference in how long the truffle lasts. What's the optimal condition? Well, a truffle was alive, and it needs oxygen. You need to let them breathe. But if you give it too much oxygen, it'll expire more quickly. So it's, it's regulating the oxygen in the CO2 in the container. where you're storing them, that will extend the shelf life. So, we keep them in, like, a toughware container in the refrigerator, with a paper towel underneath to absorb excess moisture. That's another thing. You need to keep the surface of the troubled run. Or it'll just start to like, just start to go soft and crazy, right? Right, you may have noticed that with your black truffles. They got wet looking. You have to block them dry every day. Some got wet looking and some didn't. Yeah, it was like, you know, you couldn't tell. You know what I mean? But commercially, is there, like, can you can extend it by tightly controlling the oxygen in the environment
+
+[28:48] or no? You know, one of our speakers at the Oregon Truffle Festival had a patent on an edible film that just limited the oxygen supply to the truffle and extended the shelf life.
+
+[28:59] When you say extended, but extended it at maximum quality, or is it extended it at okay quality? In other words, are you saying that, like, you're going to get the perfect experience or you're going to get, like, 80% of the experience once you extend the shelf life? Well, that's a great question. I don't know the answer. Yeah. Um, huh. So when you're talking, like, you only have a couple of days, like, how fast are these things getting to market? In other words, can you enjoy these things on the east coast or is this like a, you know, west coast or done kind of a situation? I do think truffles are the kind of food that it's their best experienced at the source. So it's the kind of food you need to travel for. But we can definitely get a good quality truffle to the east
+
+[29:40] coast in a, in a day. But is that something you're interested in? Are you interested in extending the range or are you more interested in promoting tourism to Oregon? Oh, both. We'd love to have a thriving truffle industry on your. What do you think about the contract, you like those things? We definitely invite people to come to Oregon to experience hunting them and experiencing them their source. There's one interesting phenomenon. When you're using a dog to find the Oregon white truffles in particular, there's this
+
+[30:08] toughest minty aroma that comes out of the ground that only lasts a few minutes. Right when you get it out... mean? I'm sorry? Right when you get it out? Right when you get it out? This is beautiful aroma that only lasts a very, very short time. Can you capture it in alcohol? You might be able to. A lot of the aroma compounds are soluble in alcohol. What do you
+
+[30:33] think, before I forget, what do you think of the pecan truffle? You're a competitor down east there? Do you like those things or no? Well, actually, we have a customer who's the 1st commercial grower of pecan truffles on inoculated trees. And that's in southeast Georgia. So, no, they're not competitors. We actually sell the countries with the calm truffles on their roots. I think the pecan truffles are very good. The smell is like malt balls. It's not particularly powerful, but it is attractive. Yeah, okay. So you're not you're like, you're not a huge fan is what I'm hearing. You're like, you're like, they look good from a mycologist point of view, but not your favorite culinary
+
+[31:09] truffle. I think they're great. You'll never hear me express a preference from one truffle over another. Oh, yeah? Well, you know, my last name's Arnold, and they found a truffle in the Arnold Arboretum,
+
+[31:20] and the, I don't know where the, I don't know whether you know, um, the, the person, Matthew Smith, wrote the article, yeah. And he said that, and I'd like to get your opinion on this because you, when I spoke on the phone with you a couple months ago, you said that there's undoubtedly truffle species in
+
+[31:37] Connecticut, where I am. And he writes, New England's acidic soil, harsh winters, and
+
+[31:42] year-round precipitation are, in quotes, not optimal for truffles. At least not the European varieties that people usually eat. Is that true that, like, New England soil, like, we're going to have them, but probably not delicious ones, or do you disagree with his assessment? I do disagree with this assessment. I think it's, uh, certainly the
+
+[32:01] winners are cold too cold for in the northeast. too cold for tuber Milanus forum. But there's still the tuberborky that was found in the Arnold Arboretum. Uh, this, you know, introduced DCs. And so some of those European truffles are already living and fruiting in the Northeast. And then they're native species. There's two Raccanoliculatum and tuberleonia that both live in the northeast naturally. You actually inoculated some trees up in stone barns, right? Well, you're right. We shipped some trees with the, to receive them, the burgundy trouble. Did they work out or no? Are they growing? They were planted just a year ago and I'd love to go visit them. I don't know how they do it. Listen, if you ever come out to in the Connecticut area, I'll take, you know, come up and I want you to find whatever truffles we have here. You have an open invite to come find whatever, like I say, we
+
+[32:53] have uh, hemlocks, we have uh, 3 or 4 varieties of hickory, 3 or 4 varieties of oak, mostly of the red slash
+
+[33:02] black oak group. Uh, so, you know, anyway, you're all. Any of those trees? In fact, all of those trees do have truffles living on their roots. I would love to find truffles in Central Park. I know they're there. Well, why don't you should do it. Do you ever come to New York? You, you know, you can bring my dog. I would like to. I actually just heard a lecture about a mycologist in New Hampshire doing a study on truffles, and he's finding unbelievable numbers of truffles in New Hampshire. Well, you know, listen, next time you're in New York, we'll take my dog up to Central Park and you can, you know, show them where to show them where to look out. Um, I should be clear. There are 100s of species of troubles and only a few that have culmonary value. Well, that's the thing. So when you say only if you have culinary value, they all have some sort of smell, right? Obviously, are they wouldn't be found, but you're saying a lot of the smells are unpleasant or they're just not strong enough to have a culinary value? Some of them are unpleasant. Some of them are really offensive, horrible smells. The kinds of things that flies would love. Others are really interesting smells like the juicy fruit gum, but that's not a truffle that, I think, would ever have any culinary value. Why not, like, why not, like, I mean, people like candy cat mushrooms, 'cause they're sweet, right? And they have, like, those candy kind of aromas, like, why not? In other words, like, my whole point is, is that you shouldn't try to have a, you shouldn't try to have something pretend that it's something else, right? But like maybe it has some sort of use on its own, no? Oh, absolutely. Oh, there's, there's, lots of truffles that are unrelated to the, to the tuber
+
+[34:34] species and Lucangium and desert truffles. They're fundamentally different, but also have wonderful aromas. Definitely farewell with a lot of foods. So what's the price by it? the going price for the Oregon truffles? Well, that's interesting, and now that we've introduced dogs, we've seen a price increase by about a factor of 10.
+
+[34:52] So the price is bifurcated. The bulk of the truffles are still harvested with rakes, and their prices are low. You can probably buy either species for $150 a pound. And how much is, like, a golf ball size black truffle? How much is that weigh? How many to the pound? Oh, let's say it's a 10th of a pound. Okay, so that's 10 bucks. With the dog harvest, the truffles are selling for prices comparable to
+
+[35:17] Super Milanas for. So it's $10 for a raked golf ball and it's $100 for a hunted golf ball. Uh, that would be right. All right, cool. All right. So, like, I look forward to meeting you and we'll talk more about it. No one called in their truffle. By the way, why is that? We actually do have a trouble... We have a trouble reallying question. Let's do it. Let's do it. they're on the phone or they're on the line. All right. Caller, you're on the air with Dr. La Fever. Hey, David Salvin Schultz and Houston. How are you? Nice. So, Charles, I'll let you know. Alvin Schultz, friend of ours, uh, in Texas, believes that Oregon truffles are, uh,
+
+[35:59] this is a show parlance. you'll have to excuse us enemies of quality. And so Alvin, go ahead. So, I've been rethinking that statement. It might have been harsh. I think I would agree with you on I think it's a different product, right? And I guess my question for the doctor is, uh, you know, how do you find a
+
+[36:15] good reputable Oregon truffle dealer that tarvesting with dogs versus the, uh,
+
+[36:20] the poorly harvested product? My experience with organ truffles in the past is not great. especially compared to the European uh counterparts there. I think all dog hunted. I'll harvest it. Charles, did you hear that? Uh, I, it's really rough to hear it, but I think I understood the question is, how do you find a good truffle dealer who, uh,
+
+[36:42] usually the dog drives the truffles, because the college experiences that Oregon truffles really just don't perform as well as the European species?
+
+[36:49] Correct. Yeah, specifically for I rub the old dealer for organ truffles. Yeah, reputable dealer for Oregon truffles. You got anyone? Uh, I do. And I know them personally, not the name of their company. So, uh, uh, a harvester named John Getz, G-E-T-Z, who I would refer to anybody. Um, he's exclusively using dogs, and it, it goes beyond that, not just using dogs for the quality control, but then grading the
+
+[37:21] truffles, to the point where what you're receiving is all good. So that's his company is one that I can recommend. They're in Florence, Oregon. TETZ, sir. Yeah, got it. That he's an individual. Have you tried roto zapping truffle at all? Me? No. Yeah. No, I haven't done any distillation work with it because my road of app, since we closed the bar down, has been packed. But, you know, I'd love to try that sometime. Have you Professor, have you done distillation work with truffles? Well, you certainly could. The thing is, the truffle is continuously giving off more and more aroma. So you don't really want to kill it. If you want to capture that aroma, you might not want to heat it or freeze it or do anything. You want to leave it intact and healthy and alive, and somehow just capture the stream of gas coming off of it. But we can distill at basically, we can distill it at room temperature in a
+
+[38:18] roto vap. So we do vacuum distillation, and you're not heating it at all. The question is, is, would the, would the bath in, so, Alvin, what I would do, is I would basically, uh, put like an excluder, almost, and put the truffle in between the alcohol vapor and the, um, put the truffle between the
+
+[38:37] alcohol, vapor, and, you know, in other words, have your alcohol in your distillation flask, and then have like a bump
+
+[38:43] flash there that you shove the truffle into, and then do the evaporation with the alcohol going through it. So you could capture this stuff without actually having to bathe the truffle in alcohol, which might, you know, hose it down. But I would remember, so Charles, you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Like, how long can it survive in an oxygen depleted environment? Because Rotovap is basically in a vacuum. So it's going to be in a vacuum environment for, I don't know, 35, 40 minutes at
+
+[39:09] the minimum. Is that going to totally kill it right there, or will it last for a while in a vacuum environment? Uh, you wouldn't want to subject it so much vacuum that it damages the tissue, but I think it could survive for a while in those conditions. You might need to periodically refresh the oxygen to keep the truffle alive so it continues to produce the aroma. But I think it would be fine to do that. Okay, you're saying pass the vapor through it, almost like a pachuga distillation, where they're hanging the chicken
+
+[39:36] crust, yeah? Well, exactly. I mean, what, I guess, what Charles is saying, is that you have this truffle, you spent the money on it. It's going to continue to make aroma for, you know, for several days. So you want to continue to capture that aroma for several days rather than actually cutting it into it and basically ending that truffles aroma production right away by either cutting it and consuming it like we do classically when you could be capturing it over a long period of time.
+
+[39:59] And so I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, if you did it, if you bathe it in alcohol, it might kill it, who knows? I don't know, where, you know, would you know, yeah, yeah. Whereas if it's just, if it's in, uh, you know, in, in an alcohol vapor environment for, you know, 30 minutes and maybe then you let it come back up and let it bring its aroma back and do it again, you could possibly capture a lot more of the
+
+[40:23] aroma. In fact, you could almost probably do it. The, the vapor equivalent of a soxlit extraction where you're, you know, you could probably use yesterday's truffle booze and then redistill that again through the, through the, you know, the, the reoxygenated truffle, like three,
+
+[40:41] four times to get to really concentrate the heck out of it. I don't know. I'm just like saying like the kinds of things that I might try if I had my my rotovap up and running. If it may not even require your rotavap in the sense that the truffle aroma will naturally just dissolving the alcohol.
+
+[40:58] So we actually have a partner. The Oregon Truffle Festival has a partner in Boron distillery that's making a truffle vodka. And they can do it in two ways. One is to just set the truffle next to the alcohol, and the aroma accumulates in the alcohol. The other way is to extract the aroma from the truffle by immersing it in alcohol, but you'll get more aroma the first. Because it can produce it for a longer period of time. Right, right. Presumably, you'll get a higher instantaneous concentration through maceration, but you're saying that the net effect over several days of letting it sit above the alcohol is a higher end
+
+[41:29] concentration. Right, right, exactly. And also, there's that problem of the mushroom equality. One octane 3L when you macerate the truffle. What about, has that person done any tests with, like, convection? Like, actually, like, you know, convecting the surface of the, of the headspace to try to get
+
+[41:47] a, you know, a faster, more complete, um, aroma removal from
+
+[41:54] the, from the truffle or no? I don't know their process exactly, but um, I'm not aware that they've done it. That's what I would bring. Right now, it's true. Lemoncello, aren't they? Yeah, well, that's the thing. Remember, there's a crazy, that crazy lemon cello person who never lets the
+
+[42:08] peels touch the thing and it was like all the, all the buzz of the lemon cello internets, uh, a couple years ago. Yeah, I'm sure you could do the same thing. Although I think a lot of the components in lemon cello aren't nearly as volatile and aromatic as a truffle.
+
+[42:23] So you probably have better shot with a truffle. I, you know, part of that process was allowing the lemons to become saturated with the
+
+[42:31] alcohol and then drip the extract down below. That would actually ruin the truffle. And on some level, you want to have an airflow past the truffles toward the alcohol so that you don't pickle the truffles in the process, because the alcohol will also go the other
+
+[42:43] direction and feel the trouble. You're saying fresh air, or do you think that alcohol vapor is gonna hurt it too? The alcohol vapor does accumulate in the truffle. Hmm. So, hmm. If anyone wants to send me some organ truffle, my
+
+[43:00] roto is up and running. I'd be happy to just spin those around for you. I got a quick egg dog update for you if you want that today or I can call back another week. No, give me some eggnog. Nastasi loves eggnog. Remind everyone, I've been doing an eggnog vertical. I just built the 3rd year, uh, and I tasted the George Washington and Michael Roman's recipe
+
+[43:21] from early 2015, January 2015. Uh, Roman, uh, update is that it tastes like eggnog. It tastes better, but not so dramatic, uh, Washington, which is, I think, around 12 and a half or 11.5%, getting fun,
+
+[43:37] like... Well, Alvin, you're breaking up. What happened to Washington's, which is a lower proof? It gets real funky, like here, fermented milk and goat cheese, blue cheese, but if you shake it over ice, it's not on toilet, but probably wouldn't drink
+
+[43:52] too. So you're saying it's an acquired taste, much like, much like, uh, meat, like, well, game meat that's been aged for a long time. I'm not familiar with that, but the tasting method I definitely get is like caffeir yogurt. Yeah, I don't know that I want to pound that. See, I'm not an eggnog. I like eggnog. Nastasi loves eggnog. I like eggnog. I don't know that I want like a goaty barnyardy egg, eggnog. I'm just looking at nastasias. Do you have one? You would probably enjoy one, but I haven't found anyone that would enjoy, too. Yeah, so it's a one and done. It's not a pounder. It's one of those things that people wrinkle at their face and go, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, nice. But Romans is aging nicely. So, uh, you know, come back next year with the uh, the 4th year of the vertical. All right, cool. Yeah let us know. I always want, I always want eggnog updates, as does, uh, you know, many of the, like Nick Bennett does it. Piper Christensen, like a bunch of people we know are big on the aging eggnog. So yeah, keep bringing it back. Yeah, maybe I'll send you guys some, actually, if you want to take it. It's obviously rim temperatures stable at this place, so. Yeah, I'd love to try it. I have to send it to Roberta. Attention, you guys? Uh, no, uh, send it to uh, like you have Anastasi's email, just, like, center one. I'll give you my personal address. And ship it there. Yeah, but not over the air. Even she's not that crazy to give her address over the air. But, um, yeah, yeah, I'd love to try it. We'll try it on the Earth. All right, cool. All right, so, Nastasia, I have time for a couple of, to take a couple of, I think you should finish up with Charles and... Charles, Charles. people have these questions, no? We're going to get all the questions. I have a question on pressure cooking vegetables, on salting. I have a question on rabbits. Luckily, John's question on rabbits. The rabbits aren't coming back for another couple of months. I can wait on his rabbit question. And then I have, uh, the question is, he has all these rabbits, and he lives in a suburban. He wants to catch them and eat them and should he do that or should he not? I have one on the color of cooking meat, which I think is interesting. Actually, I'm doing a lot of work on that now for my next book, for the low temperature book, the color of meat and cooking low temperature is like super important. Should I do? So, Charles, any of those topics interest you? We can answer one of those questions and the rest I can put off till next week. Uh, I'm not sure that means I'm really pretending to trouble. No, yeah, they're not, they're not truffle. about the alcohol conversation, though. What do you say? There's another way to incorporate a couple of Roman alcohol, which is to add some, something fatty. You, you, it's missing
+
+[46:29] comments, it's something fatty. It's flipped very badly to the alcohol. Actually, have a partner, folks and people, brewery, that's truffle beer, that's very authentic work. Yeah, well, fat washing, obviously, is a technique that,
+
+[46:46] uh, yeah, we all know, know and love. So you're saying basically do almost like a non-fluorage, like have it transferred to the oil because it can stay over the oil head space indefinitely without damaging the truffle and then mix that with the alcohol and then take the fat off. You can get a fairly, you think you can get a fairly, um, efficient extraction that way. Yes, I think so. Actually, I think the oil is more soluble in oil than it is in alcohol. Well, obviously, I guess truffle oil, right? So then you fat wash the truffle oil. Do you want to, everybody who listens to this show knows that truffle oil is garbage and an enemy of quality and just like the worst thing, you actually say that you have good ones, but like the commercial stuff, do
+
+[47:24] you do you feel the need to say something negative about it or do you just accept that everyone here already knows that it's a garbage product? I mean, it was authentic truffle oil. It does exist. I don't know who to refer to together, though. Yeah, yeah. Here's who yeah, Chef makes it themselves. What do you say? Usually a chef makes their own truffle oil. The authentic truffle oils are not put in bottles and sold in the store. All right, well, Charles, I look forward to meeting you next week, and McGee and me and I are
+
+[47:56] gonna eat the heck out of some Oregon truffles, and hopefully find some, maybe even get some of that minty smell right out of the ground. I'll report back to cooking issues. But I got to, I'll do one. I do the rabbits. I do rabbits. I thought you said that was the longest. It is, but it's like, it's also the easiest one to answer. The rest of them take a lot longer. So John writes in from New Jersey. Hello, Dave, and Cooking Issues crew every year when spring arrives. Those of us in the suburbs face the scourge of an R selected mammalian population boom. The beasts we deal with may look all cute and cuddly, but in reality, they are ravenous rodents with no regard for modern suburban homeowner priorities.
+
+[48:27] I speak, of course, of the Eastern cottontail rabbit. They annihilate our carefully tended gardens, destroy our nascent fruit and vegetable patches and leave poop all over our lawns and patios, and they breed like rabbits. Yeah, yeah, nice day. Well, last year, a local fox was able to keep the population down. This year, I'm going to take things into my own hands. I've considered going straight up Carl Spackler, which is, by the way, the guy from Caddy Shack, Bill Murray's character from Caddy Shack. Carl Spackler and dynamiting the neighborhood, but I think it might be more delicious to trap the rabbits and save the meat for culinary
+
+[48:56] use. In doing my research, I've seen various comments online about how suburban rabbits are not safe to
+
+[49:02] eat and that the meat will be overrun with parasites and other non-good things. This doesn't seem right to me. Are rabbits really that different from other wild game? That's my question. What's your advice on safe and delicious methods of slaughtering, handling, and cooking these rabbits? I was thinking of freezing the meat before low temp cooking them to pasteurization, wasn't sure if that was overkill or not. I'm also slightly worried about freaking out my wife and kids and all our friends with this project. But with a delicious result, I expect they'll get over it. Well, okay. Uh, thanks, uh, John from uh, New Jersey. Okay, 1st of all, they're not going to get over it. Let me just tell you this. They are not going to get over it. People, like some people will get over it. Like, if you grew up in a hunting household. where people like go out and hunt things, then they're going to be fine with it. If you didn't grow up in that environment, a lot of times they're like, meat comes from a store, meat is raised for being
+
+[49:50] killed and you can't get people around it. It's just weird. You have to suss out your own family on this, but if they if they say ahead of time that they're not going to be okay with it, then believe me, they're not going to be okay with
+
+[50:01] it. I mean, I'm okay with it. Now, your 2nd thing is, is what's the problem with rabbits? Now. I also looked online for this. And some people are like wildly crazy worried
+
+[50:13] that like somehow suburban, uh, you know, rabbits are like licking motor oil and like, you know, I don't know, I don't know, doing some sort of like
+
+[50:21] terrible uh, stuff. But if you're willing to eat the products that you grow where you are. I don't think rabbits make a habit of licking up motor oil or like
+
+[50:30] cats like eating ethylene glycol or if, you know, uh, you know, with antifreeze, a cat's eating, it kills them. But, you know, I don't I don't know of anything like that. I think that stuff is basically hogwash. What is true is that rabbits in general can have, um, uh,
+
+[50:47] Tularimia, and you want to be careful about it. So, uh, Tularimia. In fact, uh, they get it from tick bites, uh, and and and I guess there's other vectors, but tick bites is one of them. And it is a, um, it is easily transmissible from a rabbit to a human
+
+[51:03] being and there have been cases this happening. And now if you thoroughly cook the animal, you get rid of it, but
+
+[51:09] it is possible to catch it while skinning the rabbits. You have to be careful. What you typically do when you're testing it. And I looked it up online. Um, you know, I looked up, you know, hunting rabbits to Lauremia, because people who hunt rabbits a lot, like this is something they're worried about. They're like, look out for rabbits that look lethargic or sick. And then when you when you eviscerate the rabbit, you look at the liver, and if the liver is kind of spotted or speckled, that's a good sign that that rabbit has
+
+[51:36] tularemia. Now you can, and there's pictures online, you can, you can see in general. As for how to slaughter them because you're not hunting them, you're trapping them, I would go to Adam Dan. I have never slaughtered a rabbit, but it was until very recently the last animal that would be slaughtered right where you were going to eat it.
+
+[51:55] So butcher shops that still wouldn't slaughter pigs or sheep or cows, you know, nearer where their shop is, would still
+
+[52:03] slaughter rabbits in their butcher shop. And this would happen up until fairly recently, even after, way after it was illegal, just because it was very kind of simple to do, and it was considered,
+
+[52:14] it was a thing that many butchers did. That said, I don't know how to do it. But there is a book on it. Adam Danforth's butchering poultry, rabbit, lamb, goat, and pork has a whole section on how to properly and humanely slaughter a rabbit and how to eviscerate it. And I highly recommend his book. He has another one, a whole one on beef, and it's eye-opening on the procedures of how it works. And if you get that book, which is not that expensive on Amazon, the soft cover version of it, you can get an idea of whether you really want to go through with it or
+
+[52:45] not because he goes through all the steps of what needs to happen. So, the 2 things I would look up are, uh, are the
+
+[52:51] Tularemia, how to check for it, how to prevent, uh, you know, you getting it while you're skinning
+
+[52:56] it, because I think, I think certain things can get aerosolized, like blood and stuff when you're skinning it, and then that's where it happens.
+
+[53:02] Again, you can cook it and be safe. And then on how to butcher and slaughter it. Um, you know, go to Adam Danforth. And then if you still want to cook with it later, I'm going to be working on rabbit eventually, but probably not for a month or 2 for my book. So come back, hit me then with some recipes for rabbit doing low temp. Uh, thanks to uh, Charles Lefever from uh, the, the Oregon Truffle
+
+[53:26] Festival, and his company is, um, it's Truffle Tree.com is, or Truffle Tree is his website, uh, but uh, I forget the, uh, what, Charlie, you still there, uh,
+
+[53:35] doctor, what's the name of the company? It's New World Truffier. New World Truffier, and Truffle Tree, Truffletree.com.org is your is your website. Exactly. Truffledree. Yeah, truffledree.com. And thanks, and we'll see you next week on cooking issues.
+
+[53:55] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-LE.
+
+[0:18] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from pretty latest time, but actually, we're only doing a half hour show, I think, this time, but from roughly 12 to, you know, roughly 1245, like, you know,
+
+[0:31] 1255. Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Yeah, we got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? I'm good. How are you doing? Doing all right. Oh, we just got some birch syrup in from Zan. says, hey, cooking issues. Greetings from Alaska. Here's some birch syrup from my hometown. Enjoy. And then, I guess they're from Homer, because it says Homer couple taps tree. So I assume that's Homer, Alaska, yeah? Now, the only birch syrup I've ever had before was, and I think I mentioned this on the air, which is maybe
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+[1:06] why Zan sent it to us, the only birch syrup I've had before was flawed. And by flawed, I mean, like extremely acidic, as though something, either the sap was extremely high
+
+[1:16] acid or something had grown in it, and I didn't know whether that's just the way, what you hear
+
+[1:22] a crinkling in the background is not mouth noises. Please don't be afraid cooking issues people. Nastasia unwrapping the bird syrup. It's wrapped in bubble wrap and aluminum foil to prevent the alien rays from getting to it. One thing I'll have to say, Zan. It takes a lot of guts to wrap stuff in aluminum foil because you never know. Some lunatic might be like, I can't see through it with my machine, so I'm gonna open it up. You know what I mean? Did I ever tell you about the time I ordered that espresso machine? And they didn't drain the boiler. And they'd originally packed it okay. But then when they shipped it to me, a little water had dripped out. So UPS completely unpacked it, and when they packed it, they were like, ah, that's wet. And they threw the entire thing back in the box without the packing.
+
+[2:02] and then rattled it around over and over and over again. And when they showed it up, every single panel was shattered and broken. I got that espresso machine basically for free and I'm still using it to this day. Ooh, this looks nice. Take a little taste here. Mm, that's good. It is actually tart, but this one is not flawed. So birch syrup must be inherently tartar than, um, what's it called? Maple. But I think this is delicious. This is a much superior product to the one that I that I tried before. You get to dip your finger in that. It's pure syrups does. She's drinking it. I'm not coming. I'm not gonna go there. know. I'm not going to go there. So what do you think? What do you think, though? It's good. I like it. think it's delicious. And it looks to be about, I have to test it. It looks to be about 66 bricks. And the company, for those of you that are keeping track of such things, is Bridge Creek, uh,
+
+[2:55] birch syrup, uh, 100% pure birch syrup made in Homer, Alaska. Well, thanks so much. I always love doing a taste test. Tomorrow I fly out to Portland to have some truffles, so more on that next week when I'm back. Anything good going on, Assasia? No. Have we talked about the Houseguest Olympics? No. All right. This is something I think that now, this is something that Jen and I did back when we were in our early 20s, but I think it's just as valid now. And I meant to talk to Nastasi about this. This is super valid for you, especially for Nastasia because she has so many poor houseguests. But Jen and I used to, we always wonder when people come over,
+
+[3:35] like, who raised you? You know what I mean? Like, where did you come from? Like, how did you show up at my house completely empty-handed, make a huge mess and then just hightail it out and like leave me with all this garbage, right? Like, how did that happen? Right? Dave, you have this problem? Do you invite people over to your house? Yeah, but I've never really been stiff like that. that I can recall. No, you have good house. here's what you do. There's dinner, but there's also people who come and stay at your place. And so what we did is we started kind of the houseguest Olympics, and we would rank people when they came over, and we didn't tell people that we were ranking them. Maybe a little bit we did, but it's like we were like ranking people and we really got a sense for kind of who people were with this kind of a houseguest Olympics. Like the person who clearly wins the Houseguest Olympics is my cousin Nathan, who whenever he shows up, Nathan, yeah, he shows up with stuff, the guy doesn't like
+
+[4:29] dessert. So, like, at the end of dinner, when everyone's eating dessert, he's in the in the dish like area, cleaning all of the dishes. And so he shows up, brings you stuff, has good conversation, doesn't talk about stuff that pisses everybody off,
+
+[4:44] like we'll talk. You know how when you have that one? Not like cooking issues. Not like cooking issues. You know how that one person, there's always that one person that you invite who doesn't say anything and you're like,
+
+[4:52] 0 my god, who's gonna talk to that one person doesn't say anything? You know who that guy is? Nathan. Nathan's that guy that will go talk to that person at your house and not make it
+
+[5:01] awkward, that there's that person in the corner that's just basically, you know, capillary
+
+[5:05] action sucking all of your wine even out of the bottles. You don't even know where it's going, but they're in the corner, like sucking up all the wine and not saying anything to anyone. Nathan's the guy that'll talk to them and clean your dishes. So that is like, that's like gold medal, like 10.0 floor routine, like house guest Olympics. But I recommend to all you people out there that you start keeping track of the
+
+[5:23] Houseguest Olympics. And then if you let people know, maybe people get better. Maybe people get better. Doesn't that sound nice and assassin? You should rate all your friends. Would they all fail? No, they're not as bad as you think. Like, if they're not as bad as I think. they're not as bad as you tell me they are. They were a lot younger back 8 years ago when I met you. Yeah, but no, it's like, Nastasia, he says something, they're not as bad as you think. The only thing I know about them is what Nastasia tells me. They were bad 8 years ago. Uh-huh. So you're saying they've graduated, no offense to the Yellowtail Corporation, but they've graduated
+
+[5:56] beyond. Yes. They're no longer come over to your house and say, I'm not bringing any wine because I'm not drinking
+
+[6:03] today, and then they drink wine anyway. That hasn't happened in a while. Many years. Like 2 weeks? No. All right. Anyway. House Sketch Olympics. So, uh, we have uh, some questions in. Vincent wrote in from Michigan regarding salting. We didn't deal with any, the only thing we dealt with was rabbits, right? Yeah. Right. Right. Okay. I only recently found out about cooking issues. and been listening through the back catalog. I'm only at episode 120, but everything's been good. By the way, what episode are we on now? have no idea. Dave what episode is this? Let me check the archives one sec. First, I would like to thank you for opening my eyes to the wonder that is the music of Daryl Hall and John Oates. That's straight out to you, Nastasia. Although you went to go see them in concert. Bad. Well, bad for what reason? Were they actually bad or you just, they disappointed you because he kept on trying to be younger and hitting on the women. And what's it called? Jamming. Oh, you hate jamming? Yeah. You hate all forms of jam. No, I mean, they're not a jam band. As far as you know, is that the 1st time you ever saw them live? Yeah. How you know that they're not a jam band? Well, don't jam bands, like, if the jam bands jam bandits played like that on the radio, right? No, I mean, they don't usually jam bands don't usually get played on the radio. Well, ever. The Almond Brothers. Wait, is the question whether Hall and Oates is a jam band? The question is, is why would you assume that home, I mean, I would assume that they're not because they're like 80s, just like, you know, 80s? Like, I assume that they only come out of like boombox stereo speakers. That's what I assume that they come out of. But, I mean, like, no, I mean, like people, what you hear from the Allman Brothers is like Rambling Man. That song's only 2 minutes and 35 seconds. Grateful Dead. Grateful Dead is not played on the radio. Yes, it is. What radio plays the Grateful Dead? when I was a kid. Yeah, they play them. Like what? They play like the shorter songs like Touch of Gray or... No, Touch of Grey was like their lead. Yeah, that's the least Grateful Dead song on Earth touch of gray. That was like after like they'd already done anything they were going to do. You ever hear like, you never hear like Casey Jones on the radio, do you? I do. What radio? Not when I was there. You don't listen to the radio. I did back when I was younger. listen to the radio now. Not now. No offense, radio people, but the point is is that when I was growing up, when I was growing up, nothing. When I was growing up when, like, when the Grateful Dead was actually playing, you know what I mean? And not just like doing like, you know, reunions, when they were all like half of them are dead, back when they were actually a band and no one had died yet, miraculously, that stuff was not on the radio at all.
+
+[8:33] You know what I mean? But anyway, I don't know. Do they play fish on the radio? Not that I know of. Not the stations I listen to. Dave Matthews? Yes, they play him. That's the Jan band. Right. Do they play long, like 20 minute songs on the radio? I read that songs? No, I don't think anybody plays 20 minutes songs. Like 10 minute. On the radio. Yes. On regular radio. On radio that these people out here eating pizza would listen to. I don't think hipsters listen to AMFM radio. They should. They should. They should listen to AM only, but only in mono. This is taking a weird turn. Yeah, anyway. All right. Vincent... was the actual question? Oh, no, he just mentioned Hall and Oates. And so we were talking about music in Holland. By the way, we've only gone through the preamble of the question. Little story, yeah, little story. Nastasio Lopez. This is a classic Nastasia, by the way. once bought tickets to see Billy Joel at one of his Madison Square Garden performances, and as anyone who knows
+
+[9:29] us, personally knows both fans of Billy Joel. We like Billy Joel. You know, I grew up close enough to Long Island. I don't know where Nastasia got her love of Billy Joel, but like, you know, I like I love myself and Billy Joel. Nastasia buys herself tickets, Dave, you'll like this. Ticket to go alone. So, Nastasia, buys a ticket, and then... we're at an event together, literally working an event. And by the way, it was a garbage event. I don't even remember what it was. And she goes, oh my god, I'm supposed to be at Billy Joel. I just missed a Billy Joel concert. First of all, I didn't need her to be at the event. She could have gone to the Billy Joel concert. She knows it. She doesn't blame me for this. She just forgot she had the concert. But here's the kicker, Dave. This is pure Nastasia Lopez. Nastasia, will never buy again a Billy Joel ticket, even though she desperately wants to go, but she's
+
+[10:18] going to punish herself because, no, I already bought that ticket. And I didn't get to see it. So now she's never going to allow herself to see Billy Joel again, even and this what reminds me is Billy Joel,
+
+[10:28] a friend of mine, Lucia, you know, Lucia and Guido went to go see him last week at the garden, said he did some jams, but said he was great. Still good. Maybe someday, maybe someday, I'll buy you a ticket or maybe some like cooking issues admirer will send you a Billy Joel ticket to
+
+[10:45] the... want anybody to pay for it. But Nastasia, the only way you get to go see Billy Joel and concert is so nice for you. Who the hell has an extra ticket? Lots of people. Whatever, whatever. I don't again, I don't know how we got it. Oh, another thing, did you know that Ringman Brothers Barman Bailey Circus is closing? Do you know that nobody cares of me? Nobody cares but nice, dude. So sad. Are she gonna go? I don't think so I might go to, there's, it's at Barclay Center in like February, March. to find someone who cares to go with me. When's the last time you went to the circus? That's one of those things that you just forget even exists anymore. And now I guess it doesn't. When Booker was very small, I took him. But I used to, I used, my grandparents lived in right near Sarasota. So they took me to see them during the during their practice when they weren't on the road because that's where both troops would train. Like they used, you know, they were like a railroad only show for a long time. So in New York. They used to march all of their animals from the railroad depot in
+
+[11:42] Brooklyn or Queens, maybe, through the Midtown tunnel, and then they would walk from the Midtown tunnel over to the garden where it
+
+[11:51] was, where it was going on. And so you could go in the middle of the night and watch the entire
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+[11:56] circus, parade all of the animals through the tunnel and out.
+
+[12:01] It was like miniature horses. Good business. Anyway. End of an era. We should get to the question. We're on out time. Okay. So here are the questions they have. I read this article, and it states from Food and Wine, written by Oliver Schwoner Albright, years ago, like 4 or 5 years ago, where the authors, you can find it on the
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+[12:22] internet, it's called the juicy secret to seasoning meat, where the authors experiment resulted in the conclusion that different meats or cooking methods require different timings for salting the meat for best results.
+
+[12:32] Does this match your experience and knowledge? Is there any sort of best practice guideline for which kinds of meat or which cooking method should have salt applied at certain times? Um, And then 2nd question was, I had once read that uh, Dongpo, uh, pork
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+[12:46] belly, where the, I once had uh, red cooked dongpo pork belly, where the, it was fat was so soft and tender, they had almost a texture of creme caramel.
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+[12:55] How can I achieve this? Keep up the good word cooking shoes team. All right. So let's go in reverse order. For the pork belly, it's been a long time since I've made that, but if it's not
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+[13:05] soft. I think you have 2 things. Most people who do it, right? They do like a lot of kind of scraping of the skin beforehand, and some people will even needle it, and this lets like some stuff kind of come out of it. And then they do your initial typically a blanched step. And then after the blanch step, then comes the first, which is kind of a braised slash theme over a bed of like scallions and ginger, with the rock sugar and the red and the dark and the light soy sauce,
+
+[13:33] right? Um, and then after that, uh, so the crappy recipes, which probably aren't as good, just do that until the kind of the meat is
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+[13:40] done. The good recipes then take it out of that, put it in an individual steamer, and then steam the
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+[13:46] bejesus out of it with some of the juice, but so that it's no longer evaporating anymore. And they do that until fundamentally the fat is totally kind of broken down. And, you know, everyone has their own recipe, whether they do it skin side up or skin side down. Most people I know, do it skin side down, then flip it skin side up, although I saw a place that did
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+[14:06] it, that flipped it 3 times, right? So I think a lot of it just has to do with that secondary steam step. I don't know how important the initial scraping or needling of it is. But it's a good product. Do you like pork belly when the skin is not crunchy, Styles, or do you only like it when skin's crunchy? When it's crunchy. Unless it's like in a in a steamed bun or something like this. But you don't like just a big chunk of red pork. I do. I love that stuff. Dave, you, you like, you like the gooey pork belly fat or do you like it only when it's the skin's been crispified? Yeah, I guess to paraphrase hollow notes, I could go for that. You could go for that? Yeah, why not? No kidding. Well, they said no can do. That's why I said paraphrase. Well, it's more like antiphrase. Nastasi is more paraphrasing. She like, no, can do. There was a steel drum player playing that song on the 59 streets. Oh, hate steel drums. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. do you hate steal drums? Is it because you hate Caribbean people or like... That's quite a leap. but no. Why do you hate steel jumps? I don't know. just annoy me. What about when they have 2 different steel drums and they can play 2 different notes at once? Don't care. What about the fact that they make their own instruments? That's pretty baller. I guess that's cool. I tried to make one once when I was a kid. You know what I was? Unsuccessful. Like, I was able to cut yourself? Did I cut myself? I don't remember. I was very young, although I remember this. If you people, if you're going to try to make your own steel drum, the most important thing is you have to be able to take the 55 gallon drum and
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+[15:29] then like kind of depress it out, right? And that's kind of what I didn't do. I didn't have enough heat to really be able to bend that whole kind of drum thing
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+[15:37] out. But I spent the whole dang day doing it. And I just remember being really disappointed because as like, you know, an 11 year old, I was like, man, steel drums are cool. But apparently you guys were like, steel drums are for jerks and not cool, man. Not cool. I don't know. What is it? I don't know what the cooking issues crowd thinks of the steel drums. Chat room? Any thoughts? I don't know. So to go back to the question of salting. Salting is both much easier and much more complicated than you'd think. Salting does a number of things. Salting obviously makes things taste better, right? So salt in general is good. When you're talking about salting meats before or after or during what you really want to do is focus on what you're attempting to do with the meat.
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+[16:26] So a very long of assaulting like a long time before where the salt actually gets to penetrate into the interior of the
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+[16:33] meat, right? For a meat that's going to be overcooked anyway, when I say overcooked, I
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+[16:37] mean cooked above rare or medium rare, then in general, the salt is going to
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+[16:43] allow the meat to hold on to more water, right? So you're not only going to season it, but you're going to allow the meat to hold on to more water. It has more water absorption. However, it also has a kind of firmer texture once it's been salted, then it would otherwise. And this is due to a number of reasons. One, and I don't think it's primarily dehydration. I think it's primarily because you're solubilizing some proteins that come out and form a gel with it. So it kind of firms up. So salting firms the meat. And you can think about this very clearly if you think about when you salt a fish. And you let it sit for a long time, the flesh gets a good bit firmer. The same thing happens when you're doing pork or a steak or something like this. And so when I'm going to eat something that is rare or medium rare. And I'm going to let it sit for a long time, right? Then I don't want to salt it more than about an hour or 2 before it's going to get eaten because I don't want the interior of that meat to firm up on me.
+
+[17:48] This is specifically with kind of low temperature cooking. Now, if you're going to do it on the grill, right, then you can just undercook the inside a little bit
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+[18:00] more and you could salt it way beforehand, it's probably not going to affect it too much. It'll be a little firmer, but it's not going to be a big deal. But once you cook the entire piece of meat up to, let's say, 55, uh, 55 and a half . It's not that it's overcooked if you salt it a long time before, but it's just a little bit firmer and it has a little bit less of that kind of, um, steak texture that rare medium rare
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+[18:25] has where it stars. you know, I'm talking about where it goes from that point of being kind of like where it still kind of moves
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+[18:32] independently, it feels kind of like, you know, like the way Cesare cooks it. It still feels like, uh, like, and then it goes all of a sudden to being that cooked meat where it's like one
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+[18:42] piece now. It doesn't kind of move independently. And it's that firming that happens when you salt far in advance on pieces of meat that you want to have that texture on. And so those are the only real thing so that I take into account. So that's, you know, that's kind of the big, uh, that's kind of the big difference. So what happened is that person, uh, the one that they hated the most is they pre-salted the heck out. I think it's been 2 weeks since I read it, but they pre-salted the heck out of a pork loin, which is already kind of
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+[19:14] garbage-y, that garbage, a good piece of meat, but it's typically overcooked, and then they went ahead and overcooked
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+[19:19] it. And so they salted it. Uh, they salted it all the way through. Now it's already firm and so it's going to tend to be dry. I can't remember exactly how the pork loin was the one that they had the difference and just think about it this. If you're going to overcook it, then salting it in my mind is usually good, the way to go because it's going to hold
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+[19:37] onto more water. If you, and it's going to get textures. If you needed to taste more rare and unadulterated, like pure steak, and you're going to cook it for hours and
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+[19:48] hours, low temp, then salt, right before you're going to sear it or something like this. But that's basically what I do. Anyway. Anyone who disagrees with me, they're welcome to get on and disagree with me. Hey, before you go, you want to take a call? Yeah sure. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, this is Chris from Green Zone in D.C. How you doing? Doing all right. What going on? Uh, got a question. I have been using your milk washing technique for coffee infused booze from
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+[20:13] liquid intelligence for a while, and it's always worked pretty well,
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+[20:17] except this last time, last night, I did it exactly as always, as written in the book. And the liquid basically didn't clarify. And so I'm trying to filter the booze out of the milk
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+[20:30] curds, and it's, I've gone through like 3 coffee filters and it's a giant pain in the butt, and I'm wondering what could have happened. Same recipe? Yeah, exact same. Same milk? Same type of milk. I mean, I'm using full, full, like whole milk, but it might have been a different brand. The only times I've had it really fail on me was I've used ultra pasteurized milk. In fact, it was, and it might, there might be a range, right? So I'll give you an example. So, like, I normally use regular pasteurized whole milk. Um, But when I went to um, Spain last time, they got me that wretched kind of boxed
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+[21:15] Parmalot milk, which is like ultra high, like sterilized milk, and it did not work at all.
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+[21:20] So maybe there's some in-between zone in the ultra
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+[21:24] pasteurizing zone where it doesn't, where it doesn't work, you know, where it partially works. You know what I mean? This says pasteurized. doesn't say ultra pasteurized, but it also says non-homogenized. I don't know if that makes a difference, would it? That's interesting. I've never tried it with non-homogenized milk before. Um, I'd be interested to try it with non-homogenized, but you say it did form a
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+[21:48] curd, but it just didn't curd very well. No, opposite actually happened. The Kurds were much chunkier than usual. Huh. But it didn't, there was a lot of, like, normally when I do it, it forms
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+[22:00] a curd, and then I put it in the fridge overnight, and there's a clear layer of booze on
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+[22:04] top. The booze was cloudy. Oh, so there was a curd layer but the booze layer was still cloudy. Yeah. I wonder whether I wonder whether it's some sort of like, uh, excess fat in it from it not being
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+[22:20] homogenized? Could be. Huh. Huh. I don't know. I'll have to test it with some non-homogenized milk and see what's going on, but it could be that, um, it could be that
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+[22:33] the, something about the fat, not, uh, not coming. Did it still function? well just didn't look right? Did it seem fattier? I've always filtered it through a coffee filter and it usually I can, you know, filters out pretty quickly, but this time I've gone through 3 coffee filters and it's still not done.
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+[22:51] I hate coffee filters so much. I wish I could throw it into a centerfuge. I funded the spins off, so I hope it gets into production. Oh, me too. Me too. We're working on it. have some more announcements in the next couple of weeks, right? Stas? Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, I think it's, I think it's looking. I think it's looking better. I think it's looking good. I think I think we're going to make it happen. What do you think, Nastasia? hope so. Yeah. But yeah, it makes milk. When you do it, do you use whole milk, you said? I use whole milk, but I use whole, like, supermarket,
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+[23:20] like, you know, regular supermarket milk. Like, so homogenized, pasteurized milk. I know it doesn't work with Parmalot, and maybe it doesn't work as well with, without centerfuge, with non-homogenized, but it's something
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+[23:35] to check. And like I say, I'd be interested in throwing it into a fuse to see whether it would spin out. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine it would, but all right. Well, I guess next time I'll just try the regular homogenized stuff done. Cool. All righty. let me know All right, man, thanks. All right, cool. Nate Simon wrote in from Sacramento. What? Do you need to get to your event? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let me just take, do a couple more, like, you know, start late and late. Uh, I'm gonna... Oh, you got, yeah, no, I won't start. late, late, but I mean, like, you know, later than I need. All right. I'm a big fan of cooking vegetables. This is from Simon. Nate Simon in Sacramento. What do you think of SackDown, Stasia? Fine. She's like, I don't care about Sacramento. Just speed it up. That's the hand motion that you can't see that she's making. Now you made me lose my place. See? I'm a big fan of cooking vegetables in the pressure cooker, which I then puree for soups. I do like the ability of the pressure cooker to caramelize the vegetables. However, most recipes recommend adding a small amount of baking soda to facilitate the
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+[24:36] Maya direction. Remember, though, you gotta keep straight the difference between caramelization, which is a sugar only thing in Myard, which is reducing sugar and proteins. And we all fence, say, caramelized, when we actually mean myard, but like something like a carrot actually also has enough sugar in it that at higher temperatures anyway, actual caramelization can take
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+[24:56] place and sugars, in fact, can caramelize on their own in a pressure cooker under the right circumstances,
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+[25:03] i.e. with baking soda. So in a pressure cooker, with a high sugar item, there are there is actually both myard reactions and caramelization reactions going on in a basic environment, i.e. alkaline environment, but it's something to keep track of.
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+[25:17] I find that even with small amounts of baking soda, less than 0.5%. I can still taste it. I call it the pretzel taste. I'm wondering if the baking soda is absolutely necessary. Could the vegetables just be cooked for a longer period of time and get the same degree of
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+[25:31] caramelization? Well, again, the question is, is it caramelization or is it my iron? Is there any other alkalizing agent that could be used that doesn't give that funny side taste? Thanks and best wishes, Nate Simon. Um, I don't know. I haven't run a lot of the test. You could just try to cook it longer, but longer might mean like twice as
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+[25:49] long and see kind of what happens. It's possible. Also like if you were to um, allow more liquid to evaporate off, then the temperature would go kind of even higher, but you'd run into some problems with
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+[26:03] uh, scorching uh, at that point unless you were doing the kind of trivet and jar uh, technique. I've done some like ultra high temperature ones where I have pre-reduced, gotten some, you know, liquid out and then put them
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+[26:17] in, uh, in oil in it, but it's not really safe. I wouldn't really recommend doing it and I can get like much higher temperatures that way. Um, Lastly, I want to make sure that you mean, you should just try it and see whether you like the result, just do it for twice as long and see what happens. But I would also say, I don't know whether the recipes that you're using have you neutralize the baking soda a little bit. Unfortunately, baking soda doesn't neutralize to salt and water the way that like hydrochloric acid and lye would do. Uh, but, um, it does, it neutralizes to sodium acetate, which has a little bit of a vinegar, uh,
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+[26:57] like a, so if you use acetic acid, then it will, I think it will go to sodium
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+[27:02] acetate. Right? Yes, it'll go to sodium acetate. And then that'll have, that's what they use for salt and vinegar potato chips. So if you want a little bit of a vinegar taste to it. You could try to neutralize it with a little bit of vinegar. You could try to use a tiny pinch of food-grade, tiny pinch of
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+[27:20] food-grade, uh, sodium hydroxide, uh, and then, but I wouldn't use HCL for it. So you're still going to have an acetate ion in there when you neutralize it, but I would just be careful, as everyone knows, lie in the kitchen can be dangerous if you don't label your core containers and you taste it like a jerk.
+
+[27:39] Lastly, Zach writes in about low temperature meets. My wife, my wife's family routinely commits war crime level overcooking of any meat.
+
+[27:50] As a result, I'm increasingly volunteer to host or bring entrees to family events. This has led to a secondary problem. They won't eat anything that is even pink inside poultry pork and even beef. I can't bring myself to intentionally overcook, and I think they would actually like to eat things that are equipped much less if they could get past
+
+[28:06] a psychological barrier. So is there a way with low temp cooking to greatly reduce the amount of redness
+
+[28:11] and a cooked piece of meat without actually cooking it more? i.e. could I enzymatically degrade the hemoglobin? It, not hemoglobin, by the way, it's myoglobin, or otherwise catalyzes degradation at a lower temperature. Um, and then, uh, the 2nd point you have is, have you ever noticed that when toasting almonds, uh, that if you taste them
+
+[28:27] while they are still hot, Their texture is odd and off putting and flavor even seems to be off. I think that's more of a texture issue. But it could be a flavored thing because they're volatiles coming out of, especially if you leave the skins on. But once they cool, they get that great crunchiness and texture, what's going on there. I think what's going on there is the protein. It's like a protein gel and when it's hot. It, um, with any residual moisture is just a little bit rubbery, and then when it cools down, it gets all nice and solid. Remember, roasting, you're actually flashing off almost all the water. So it's, I think it's basically just that protein gel. Back to your meats. The problem with meats is that when you vacuum pack or cook something low temperature in a bag or anything like this, um,
+
+[29:09] you're a lot of the uh, myoglobin is in its deoxygen state, deoxymyoglobin. The oxymyoglobin is much more resistant to heat denaturation than, um, than, um,
+
+[29:23] regular, um, oxymyoglobin is, uh, and so what happens is, is that you have a lot of
+
+[29:29] deoxy left. It cooks, then when you get it out of the bag. It kind of blooms and gets red. Um, Also, in poultry, you have actual actual hemoglobin there coming out of the bones, especially in younger meat. So with poultry, get rid of all the bones, trim out those areas, cook it faster. It's been my experience at the faster rates of cooking. So in other words, thinner pieces of meat, faster rates of cooking are gonna get better coloration, well, more cooked looking coloration for you. But allow it to bloom up in a full oxygen environment, even allow it to go, if you were to do things that make it look terrible beforehand, like form Met myoglobin, i.e. put it in a
+
+[30:09] micro oxygen environment so that it oxidizes, pull it out, and then like expose it to large amounts of
+
+[30:13] oxygen, oxygenated meat will turn brown very quickly. And so I'm actually experimenting with the low temperature book that I'm
+
+[30:21] doing, different ways to get around this problem since it is a problem. And so as I do experiments, I'll let you guys know. I'll give you more feedback on how to make meats look overcooked even when they're not cooking issues.
+
+[30:45] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E.
+
+[0:15] Hello and welcome to Cookie Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. live on the Heritage Radio Network from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, every Tuesday from Roughly 12. Roughly 1245 or, you know, one depends on how we feel. Uh, yeah, how you guys doing? I got, I got with me today. No, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. Yeah. She's in Chicago. She got to fly out yesterday in that awesome, awesome. wind and rainstorm we had in New York. I think out of LaGuardia. I am amazed that they let her fly out. I mean, LaGuardia. planes fly out of there at all. Well, you know, it's like, for those of you that don't know, like, we have 3 major airports in New York. One of them is in New Jersey, so go figure. And it used to, actually, it's a lot easier now to come in and out of Newark, which is the one in New Jersey because now you can kind of like Uber back and forth, but it used to
+
+[1:10] be you'd take a New York City cab to Newark. First of all, I mean, we also have in the studio replacing Nastasia Lopez for today only, the evil cocktail overlord of the universe, Don
+
+[1:20] Lee. Don? brought the anger. I'm here to smash. Nice, nice. I hate everything. He's like, are you more, are you more Kylo Ren or more Darth Vader? Ooh, tough question. Defin more Darth Vader. angsty thing going. No, no dad killing thing. Just straight evil. I like that better. Skip to Anakin, too. Just straight Darth Vader. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he was the worst. Anakin was the worst. Like that acting so unbelievable. Although, I just got an interesting tip. If you're going to rewatch the prequels. Watch it in a language you don't understand with subtitles, apparently a lot better. I mean, if you can't hear his acting? Yeah. So, you know, you just got subtitles, like watch it in Farsi. But in dubbed in Farsi with English? Dubbed in Farsi, English subtitles. Well, I mean, I don't know the guy. Christian, what's his name? the dude. Hayden Christensen. Hayden Christensen. I mean, has he acted in anything where he's good after that? It's horrific. I mean, Natalie Portman's a good actress and she's horrific in that. So I don't know, man. Has anyone ever watched the Phantom Menace all the way through? I mean, painfully the 1st time it came out, not since then. Exactly. I've tried. on several occasions to make it all the way through. Have you ever watched the 2 hour long review of the Phantom Menace on YouTube? This guy he reviews all 3 of the prequels, and he also, like, has the, there's this subplot of him being, like, uh, a Buffalo Bill-esque serial killer because truly only someone like that could review those movies, but it's really, really good.
+
+[2:45] Yeah, does it start like the Phantom Menace with a bunch of weird trade rules? It's like it's almost like what's going on in politics right now. It just starts with a bunch of trade regulations that nobody understands. And then like muddles on, and then all of a sudden, Darth Maul comes out and gets killed in like 10 seconds, right? I mean, it's like at the end of the movie. I mean, the only good thing to come out of that movie is the Duel of the Fate song. That's a great song. John Williams. Oh, wait, John? I don't know that. That's the song when they're actually fighting at the very end. But is it better than like the actual like Darth Vader theme? Of course it can't be better than that. But it is in the pantheon of, you know, Star Wars songs, one of the greats. What about the plaintiff Rebel Alliance song? That's awesome too. The Hunt theme, the loop theme, Leothemia. That's good, right? Yeah, light motifs, all about that. Yeah, yeah. You know what? Is there anyone better than him? At what he does? Anyone? I don't know. Whoever just did a Rogue One did a pretty good job. Wasn't him? It wasn't him. yeah. He's still alive, though. He's still alive. Kind of true. didn't they get him? Because it's it's a Star Wars story, not the official Star Wars. But when Darth Vader was in it, they used the original, but then it changed very
+
+[3:52] quickly, if you listen carefully. They just, well, I remember when it, I don't know why we're talking about this. Anyway, back to the quickly on our airport. So now you can take the Uber back from there, so it's not so bad. But we have 2 other main airports in here. We have John F. Kennedy International Airport, which is where a lot of the international flights come in. Also terrible airport. Worst. Here's the worst. Like when you fly internationally, they make you walk basically the length of an entire country to get from the airplane to
+
+[4:20] the, uh, where they check you into the country at customs. Then they make you stand in 3 separate lines. In the name of efficiency. They make you stand in 3 separate lines. You have to go in the line to talk to the computer, to tell it what you brought in or didn't, then wait in the line, to hand that piece of paper to an agent who stamps your passport so that you can wait in line to go to a customs person who actually verifies that they're going to search you or
+
+[4:44] not. Wait, how is it that you don't have global entry yet? Uh, okay, people. So you can pay $100 and go get this thing called global entry. The problem is you actually have to show up somewhere to do that. You can't just walk and be like, here's my $100. Yeah, but you don't even have to go to an airport in New York City. There's a TSA office in lower Manhattan. First of all, are you a citizen of the United States, Donnelly? Of course I am. Am I a citizen? Am I a citizen of the United States? Yeah. Yeah. Should I have to pay my government to not be inconvenienced? Should it be a rich person's freaking right only to not have to go through hell? Someone who scrapes their nickels together so they can finally take that international freaking trip, they should have to pay
+
+[5:23] $100 so that their government doesn't ram a freaking ramrod of
+
+[5:28] nasty, time waste, suck crap up your, you know what? When you come back into the country. Listen, clearly that shouldn't be the case, but, you know, this is the world we've got. So what are you going to do? And besides, most credit cards will pay for it for you, as will any frequent flyer service. What do you mean, frequent flyer service? If you got frequent flyer status, don't pay for it. Again, you have to be a frequent flyer, you have to be a special person. Listen, you're a frequent flyer, you fly all the time. But I don't sign up for anything because I can't do paperwork. All right. We're talking about this off the air. All right. So anyway, so here's the other thing about John F. Kennedy International Airport. It costs 60 to $80 to get there. I mean, that's just it, unless you take public transportation. And there's no convenient public transportation at John F. Kennedy Airport, because you have to take, at a minimum, at a minimum, a subway to another train and then walking in between. That's minimum. You can do the express bus to Midtown. To another. Oh, yeah, but then you have to get to Midtown. I don't live in midtown. So that's your problem. And by the way, you're going with bags. You bags. And do they do things like not have, like, lots of stairs? They have some convenient way to get around those subways and things? No. No they do not. It is not built for people to use, right? I believe they're all ADA accessible. They've got elevators. There is no... Also, there's traffic. Like, okay, there are maybe 15 to 20% of the time during the day when you can get to and from JFK without traffic, but
+
+[6:50] your plane never lands or takes off during those times, right? So you spend like 40 minutes in a car, and then 40 minutes into your car ride, you pass
+
+[6:59] LaGuardia on the way home, which is the airport is incredibly communicate to get into, but it's a freaking nightmare because planes never take off or land on time because the runways are too short.
+
+[7:09] Correct. How are we a major city? Listen, this is what we got. We got a, you know, over a 100-year-old subway system, the floods, we're gonna, you know, close down tunnels. There's lots of problems here. But how are we like, how is this okay? Like, how are we like who we are? Listen, you know, if we had a major war that leveled the city and we rebuilt it from the ground up like Rotterdam, it'd be nicer, you know, or like Seoul or Tokyo. All right, all right. Listen, I'm going to need this later and I didn't write it down. So please remember this, please remember this name of this article, people. Later on, we are going to answer or talk about a question about soybean, uh, and pulse proteins, yuba skin, yuba, bean curd skin. And we're going to talk about this article. So if you are interested in protein of other legumes and pulses, just remember this article. It's a review, so you can just get a handle on what the proteins are by Joyce
+
+[8:01] boy and its pulse proteins, colon, processing characterization, functional properties, and applications in food and feed, a review in food research international.
+
+[8:11] And you can find that, you can find abstracts to it on the internets, or if you can steal access to
+
+[8:16] a university, you can get it that way. I forget what year, let me see what year was from. Uh, 2010. So, you know, less than a decade old, relatively recent. Call in your questions, leguminous or not, to 718-497. Oh my god, I forgot the number. 7184972128. 718-497-2128. So I just got back from Oregon, from Portland, and I saw them, the dogs actually hunting
+
+[8:44] truffle. So now I know how to do the truffle hunting. And I have to say that the fact that I've not been able to get my dog, one of my major, my large lab to successfully hunt troubles. It not his fault. I think I was looking in the wrong places here in Connecticut. My my truffle contact uh, Charles LaFever in
+
+[9:01] in uh, in Charles Ruff, my other truffle contact in um, in Portland. They they tell me, they insist that I have truffles here in Connecticut, that we all have truffles everywhere, truffles everywhere, just you
+
+[9:12] got to know how to look for them. But non-culinary truffles. Potentially. Unclear. Unclear. Unclear. I know a lot more, well, look, we talked a lot about truffles already, but I have a lot more experience with the Oregon truffle now, so if anyone cares to talk more about, uh, you know, non-European truffles, like
+
+[9:28] non-Milanosporum, I, paragord, and non-magnetim, I, white alba truffles, you know, let me know. So what were you doing wrong with your dog? Is it like going too close to the base of the tree, like looking in the wrong place? Truffles don't like like a lot of like debris and wood and garbage on the ground? Like truffles like forests that are relatively recently planted? They like, uh, relatively, um, they
+
+[9:53] live in conjunction with disturbance, right? Because they're on these truffles anyway. relatively young forests and they don't like, I think, a lot of competitive, like, shrubs and wood and all this kind of other garbage on the ground. Um, you know, like the land I have, I was looking in very rocky. I also don't like waterlogged ground, so you have to look in places that aren't completely waterlogged. Um, so anyways, I got, I just got an eye of where they were looking for this stuff in, in Oregon. So I feel like I have a better handle. I'm just envisioning you, like, you know, bribing your sons to go like rake the forest to like clear
+
+[10:26] the debris now. Well, what you need, I don't know. In other words, I don't know if that'll help or it's just whether it's it needs to be kind of just like that naturally. Like the where we were was like the classic, uh, like Doug Fur, like needles on the ground, soft duff, you know, the ferns here and there, but not a lot
+
+[10:42] of like, you know, crazy downed stuff. You know what I mean? But so the acidic soil is okay with them, then. Is that what Doug fur grows in? I don't know. Like, I think everything depends. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta look it up. But so the dog that I was with, Dante, and they use some sort of precursor to the poodle, the, like, I forget what it's called. It's called like the lake Romanolo or something. It looks like a poodle, but it's apparently older, and I don't know anything about it. But so Dante finds a truffle, does the mark, puts his paw down, does the initial scrape. I was like, don't get, stop. And I got down on my hands and knees and put my nose to the dirt. I got the minty smell. Dude, it's not mint. This one has like everyone's different, right? It's like Rosemary's baby. Every truffle is different. But the, for those of you that have seen Rosemary's baby. But these ones have like kind of a sulfur, almost like horseradishy allium hit to them, along with some other aromas. It's like once you smell it. See, the thing with this is once you smell it, like fresh out of the, you know, ground, it's like, okay, I got a lock on what the Oregon white truffle smells
+
+[11:42] like, but what I'm here to tell you is, is that a human being with their nose to the ground can smell it.
+
+[11:46] And I'm sure if you were to, like, crawl on all 4s constantly or, like, you know, wheel yourself around, face down on a car dolly all the
+
+[11:55] time, that you could find these things too. You know what I'm saying? Sounds like a challenge. Let me tell you something else. Smelling the ground in a dug fur patch is nice anyway. Like, there's no bad smells there. You know what I mean? It's not like putting your, you know, nose to the pavement in the lower east side. It's not just like a big giant pile of filth. Turn it into like some kind of like yoga meditation thing where you have to go into the forest and do
+
+[12:19] this. Oh my god, we totally should. It's like you find X number of truffles and you've reached this certain level of daily enlightenment. Yeah. We can make a whole religion around this. Side business, selling truffles, you know, selling enlightenment on the other side. And let me tell you, you become much more doglike when you're on the ground. So, like, you know, you're sitting there and if you ever watch a dog outside? Yeah, they they do the, they do the, and they blow out. You do the same thing when you're doing it. You're like, okay, I feel like not. I feel like I'm saturated with whatever's right here. You do the blowout, and then you start again. You're like, okay, without even thinking about it, you're like, oh my God, I'm acting just like a dog. Right, but the nostrils themselves and the dogs are very different. So they've got that little like kind of curly cue. It looks like a comma almost, where the when they do blow out, it creates this interesting, like, vortex so that they're really directional smelling versus us. like kind of everywhere. Harold McGee, one of his favorite studies to bring up is this study, and I forget what it
+
+[13:13] was. It was at some UC school, I don't know, like 15, 20 years ago, something like this,
+
+[13:18] where, and so I've read studies that basically say, yes, dogs are better than humans, but it's not like, I don't
+
+[13:24] think it's orders of orders of magnitudes better than humans. And I think there's some contentious kind of argument over this, but I mean, obviously they use dogs to smell things that we can't, right? So I mean, there you go. I don't know whether dogs can smell more compounds, strictly speaking, more numbers of compounds we can or their sensitivity to those compounds, but there was a study where this
+
+[13:43] person in California, I forget who it was, drugs, some chocolate, aroma, or it could have been chocolate, but I doubt it's just chocolate because chocolate aroma through the ground, and then put flashlights on students' heads, and then overhead took a picture of them at night, trying to sniff their way, and they found
+
+[14:02] it. And you could see them like, you could see them do that kind of like, like, um, like the hunt porpoise back and forth until they hit the right trail and then staying on, deviating
+
+[14:10] off, coming back. So humans can do it. Yeah, we can do it. It's just, my understanding was from a pure anatomy standpoint. The dogs, the snouts are longer. So the way that they experience smell is more, uh, it's more, uh, was
+
+[14:23] it uh, orthonasal, then retronasal? you know, for us, it's a lot of it is like, you know, associated with when we eat. And so it's that retro nasal smell. With a dog, it's primarily that orthonasal from the outside directly through the nostrils. And the shape of the nostrils make it more directional than us. Well, yeah, Lieberman, the human evolutionist, his theory,
+
+[14:41] I don't know whether it still has any credit or not, is that we are the retro nasal, like, royalty of the animal world, whereas everyone else is, yeah, completely orthonasal.
+
+[14:49] So like dogs, you know, like dogs, when you make dog food, you're not worried about how it smells when they're chewing it. It's all about, you know, getting it in the face getting it in the face. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Anyway. How the hell do we get into this? Airports? Uh, truffles. Truffles. Star Wars, truffles. Yeah. weird. Um, okay. So Quinn wrote in. This was last week. Back in November. I asked you a question on how to make a double extracted chicken stock. I didn't talk about this. Did I, Dave? The nuts from Star, a Star chest or did I, I mean, from Chef Steps? Don't think so, no. I had a different nut question. talked about, right? Yeah, yeah. So I recently tried making stock using the double pressure cooker technique you described and it worked out nicely. Great. The flavor was more concentrated than any stock I'd previously made. There was also a huge difference in the body of the stock. As I chilled it a nice bath. It solidified into a gel, whereas previous stocks I made there would be some gelatin, but it would still be mostly liquid. Thanks for the help. I have a question about a chef's steps recipe for deep fried, glassy nuts. What do you think about that title, Don? Deep fried, glassy nuts. Who doesn't like some glassy nuts? Glassy nuts. What about classy nuts? Well, what about classy glassy nuts? Damn. We have so many people ask, like, like, the I have a feeling like everybody
+
+[16:08] knows is like they can in their heads just say these nuts at this point on this show with the number of times that we've had like these nuts
+
+[16:14] references. I always think McGee's nuts now. Oh, because we did it on that show, McGee's nuts. Yep. Yeah. That's replaced Deez Nuts in my mind. So when you actually hear Snoop Dogg saying it to his like girlfriend on the phone, you hear him saying McGee's nuts? Yeah, my mind just pastes McGee's in over what he's saying. Wow. That's kind of cool. Yeah, it's a testament to the power of the show and radio. Can we get Martha Stewart to ask Snoop to say McGee's nuts? That would be amazing. In the Snoop Dogg, in the Snoop Dogg way? Yeah. That's going through my head. Here's another one that goes through my head all the time. Whenever I think of total eclipse of the heart, the song, in my mind, the word heart is replaced by Jean-Paul
+
+[16:57] Sarte, and vice versa. Whenever anyone mentions Jean-Paulsart, I sing total eclipse of the Jean-Paulsart in my head. Sounds like an existential nightmare. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there you go. Boom. Anyway, so the recipe is Chef Steph's tips and tricks, deep fried, glassy nuts. Um, so briefly, what they do is they take the nuts, uh, whatever nut. I think they do pecan in their recipe. But I think it works theoretically on any nut. And they blanch it for a while in water. So there's there's for a couple minutes. There's 2 things, by the way, that that blanching step is doing. It's adding some moisture to the nut, which is gonna help in the next procedure, but it's also leeching out the tannons. So if I were you, you know, but it's not going to penetrate too far, so you're not going to leach out too much of the nuts flavor, but like basically all of the all of the stuff that you don't like when you're roasting, like those kind of burnt bitter notes, a lot of that stuff is coming from the skin, which is also kind of high in tennis, especially on something like a walnut or
+
+[18:03] prechaun. Anyhoo. So you blanch it for more or less time, depending, I guess on how much crap you want to leach out. And then you instantly throw it into, um, uh, they do it in salted water too. So I guess they're salting it at the same time, which is always a good idea. And they throw it into powdered sugar, but confectioner sugar, I guess, which also has some
+
+[18:20] cornstarch in. I think they use confectioner sugar. It's interesting. I doubt that the chef steps guys bother making their own powdered sugar and any non, any commercial confectioner sugar you have has cornstar chant because that's how they keep it from caking together. So, excuse me, after you pull it out, you drain it, then you shake it like a shake and bake in
+
+[18:40] a in a Cambro of, um, of this powdered sugar, this confectioner sugar, and then, uh, you fry it, right? And so the purpose of frying there is, I guess, to keep them
+
+[18:52] separate, frying at a rather low temperature. You're keeping them separate from each other, so not like on a baking rack, and you're also preventing stuff from dripping off because any watery stuff is going to adhere to the nut inside the
+
+[19:04] oil because it has no reason to go off into the oil. And at the same time, you're evaporating the moisture off of the surface out of the nut entirely to dehydrate it again. And at the same time, you're taking this slurry of sugar that you've made on the outside with the water and the nut and anything that's coming
+
+[19:22] out, and you're melting that into a glassy coating, when it's done, you pull it out, you dry it off.
+
+[19:28] Uh, so, uh, that, oh, man, my phone decided that I was done, done reading. So it stopped. So anyway, so the point being that, uh, see what happened to him then. I followed their procedure, blancing the pecans in salted water for about a minute, then strained and immediately dumped them into a Cambro of powdered sugar, shaking
+
+[19:44] the coat, coat well before frying in 325 degree hot oil. Several of the pecans had sugar that crystallized, resulting in a clumpy coating. Very few ended up looking glassy. Any ideas as to what went wrong, thanks Quinn from LA. Uh, so I looked at the chef steps, um, their website, and uh, there were like huge numbers of people who were like, worked like a charm, worked like a charm. And then occasionally people would have this problem. Typically, what's going on in this problem is, there's, I haven't tried the recipe, so I can't say, but typically what happens to me when you're cooking sugar is either, um, either you've never fully melted
+
+[20:25] this stuff to begin with, and so a crystal stays there, and then it just crystallizes as it cools down, or two, um, you have something that does fully melt out, but a crystal then gets reintroduced back into it, and it
+
+[20:40] just crystals and glasses over. So, you know, one would be, you know, something that never works right. So, like, you know how, you know how if you take, um, if you take sugar and you don't get all the crystals off of the side as it starts to boil, then, uh,
+
+[20:54] if you, and if you stir it while it's doing, you can hit a crystal into it, you can crystal out your whole batch, once you make it to a certain temperature, because you're not hot enough to melt everything out, you're not hot enough to go 100% caramel, but you're not, uh, you know, you're cold enough that you can stay in that super saturated state.
+
+[21:09] You're basically putting the, I'm not being clear. You're basically putting the sugar into a supersaturated state and then introducing a nucleation site. That's what's happening. So my guess is, um, maybe you're draining it too much and you need a little more water on it. Um, That's my guess. I don't know. what do you think? Are you a sugar cooking person, Don? Not so much of a sugar cooking person. But it's it sounds interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the kind of the powdered sugar that he's using as well. I mean, is the cornstarch really going to affect it that much? Is that going to make things better or worse? I mean, if I had to guess, I would say it would make it more
+
+[21:47] crystalline because it's it's non-sugar that's in the in the thing. My guess is that it's not going to matter too much. Maybe someone on the chat room knows about this, Dave, and can, like, weigh in on this. Another thing is, I mean, your oil temperature, if your oil temperature was right, the oil temperature surely can affect it, but I don't
+
+[22:09] know. I don't know. I don't know how. I specifically say it's powdered sugar. So, I mean, these guys are pretty specific. No one sells powder sugar, though. He's super fine. Super fine, not powder. Super fine, not powdered, Don. Super fine is not powdered sugar done. But if that is in fact the case, The best way to do it is to put super fine in like a
+
+[22:32] Vita Prep and just blitz the hell out of it until it's a powder, but it's mean, you can try it. But I have to look really closely on the, what's it
+
+[22:39] called, on their video, and you can tell by looking at the way it shakes, whether or not it's, yeah. But, you know, don't be don't be substituting super fine for powder, man, not the same. Listen, if you have to choose one or the other, I'd rather take the new cornstarch. In real life? you know, I don't know. I guess it's probably helpful for some things. What about for glazes? I'm sure it's helpful in glazes. I use nothing but confectioner's sugar and glazers. Yeah, but that's like, you know, if you want that specific thing. I always want that. don't like glazes on cakes? I just, I've had too many cocktails where someone reads the recipe, sees powdered
+
+[23:11] sugar and then uses confectionery sugar and then now I've got... You should never use that in a cocktail. what I'm saying. What do they use it for? Wrong. just shouldn't use it. But what do they use it for? It's just they don't understand. What recipe calls for powdered sugar? Like old recipes that, you know, they're not looking at modern recipes. So they'll they'll read a Jerry Thomas style recipe. See powder trigger, and then... There's no place for cornstarch in a normal cocktail.
+
+[23:34] Which is why, for me, if you have to choose, go super fun. because cornstarch, you're just going to make it cloudy. Exactly. And if, you know, I forget what it is. I think it's not low. I think it's something... It's not as high as 10%, I don't think, but it's not an insignificant amount of corn stars that's in
+
+[23:52] it. So I would imagine also that it's going to leave a, this, I make a guy. Definitely texture. Once it's dissolved. Yeah. And it's this little, you know, slurry on the bottom as you drink the drink. It's a nightmare. Why would anyone do? enemies of quality. Enemy music quality. Hey, you can still go buy that shirt. Oh, by the way, next week, uh, when Nastasia is back, hopefully we have more information on uh, the spins all, how it's going, we still have the campaign going, uh, going well. might have some news next week about our plans. We're talking with our factories in China in advance of the
+
+[24:28] Lunar New Year, which is this weekend. So basically, we're getting our last licks in before the lunar New Year, and hopefully have more on dates, timings, updates on how much money we've had pledged to
+
+[24:42] date and how much money we're actually going to need going forward, and then we'll talk more about it. Yeah, for people that don't know on the manufacturing and China side of things, Lunar New Year is the largest voluntary migration of people that happens every
+
+[24:55] year and everything shuts down in China for almost an entire month. Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is even though the celebrations are probably what, like a week or something like this, I was talking to the guys. And so like, what you have is, like, in a lot of factories in China, people are, they go to the factories from, they live a long, way,
+
+[25:13] way, a long way away. And they go and they live in the factory dormitory style. We're talking like, you know, young people like 18, 19, 20 year old people. Yeah, you know, working in these factories. Not like young, like, you know, like child labor young, but like, you know, 1st job young. And those group of people, sometimes when they go home
+
+[25:35] for, you know, for the Lunar New Year, it's a long way to get there and maybe they didn't like their
+
+[25:41] job so much. So they just don't come back. And so, like, it takes a long, long time for the factory to get back up to speed because they don't know what percentage of their workers are
+
+[25:50] going to get back. Um, and, you know, maybe that'll change. Uh, later in time uh, in China as as fewer and fewer workers uh, become migratory or come from other, you know,
+
+[26:02] provinces. Um, I don't know. It's an interesting and strange phenomena, you know what I mean? interesting. Yeah. Are you guys manufacturing in China at Cocktail Kingdom, right? We do something there, yep. Yeah, not everything, but some, right? You see you hearing any rumblings yet about the whole Trump thing? Not anything that specifically affects us. Yeah. I'm interested because I'm working there. I'm interested to see what happens. I kind of, you know, I wish I could make I wish I could make the spins all in the US, but we just don't have the quantity. You know what I mean? Like, this is what I think people don't understand. Like a small manufacturer, like me or like, you know, you guys a cocktail kingdom, be virtually impossible for a lot of the stuff we do to get the numbers
+
+[26:42] reasonable. Like the U.S. were really good at making a couple and we're really, really good at making a lot, but anything that is not in automation range is
+
+[26:52] like... Yeah, you can't. Like, you have to make enough of something to have it be automated for it to be viable here in the US, but then how many jobs are you really providing if you're going to an automated, you know, I don't
+
+[27:04] know. It's an interesting problem. I wish I could. If you want to take a call? Yeah, sure. Call her. on the air. Hi, Dave. My name's Nick. I'm calling from UK. Hey, how you doing? I have a I'm good. Thank you, you guys. Yeah good. I have a cocktail related question. I'm trying to make a tequila and rhubarb sour,
+
+[27:28] where I'm using the, uh, the rhubarb juice, um, both
+
+[27:34] as, uh, taking the rhubarb juice, uh, using that, uh, making a syrup from that and also using it
+
+[27:40] to, for the acid. But it's got, I've got a problem with the astringency. It's kind of really, um, if you make one drink and it's great. It's balanced between the kind of acid and the sugar, but If you then go to have a 2nd drink. 2nd one of it, you get that real kind of tannic drying quality uh stringency in the mouth. And I just wonder if you had any ideas on how to deal with that. Sure. So, let me go through your procedure. First of all, this is a heated rhubarb. Yeah, so the uh, the rhubarb is uh, cooked in about in a water bar, 60 degrees for an hour, uh, blended with
+
+[28:18] pectin X and then uh, spun in the centrifuge to take that off. Um, and then, uh, so I then split into 2 parts and make, um, from one half of that make a, uh, 50 brick
+
+[28:31] syrup and then essentially then make it like a, uh, uh, as if you were making a daiquiri.
+
+[28:38] So, well, a one. 5 ounce of tequila and 3 quarters of... juice and 3 quarters of syrup. One and a half . I got to go two. Yeah, gotta go too. Anyway, well, like, let me ask you this. Well, maybe not, it depends. Yeah, you should go. Yeah, anyway, what? Let me, uh, let me, let me work mentally backwards here. So I've never cooked rhubarb at 60. Is that enough to have it taste cooked or does it still taste raw? It tastes cooked. Okay. Yeah, because raw rhubarb, which I've also used is even more challenging to use in a cocktail than cooked rhubarb.
+
+[29:13] Um, I would recommend, um, I mean, anytime I have a a problem of astringency, I move to some sort of stripping regimen, but I would do it like on the juice itself.
+
+[29:27] So, uh, caseine, like milk is a relatively gentle stripping thing, so you could do like a milk washing to it, uh, before you add
+
+[29:35] the sugar. Obviously, there's a sugar will stabilize it. So, you know, it'll kind of ruin it. unless you want to actually make a milk syrup out of it, but then the problem is then you have to add a lot of milk. But, um, yeah, so a milk would, uh, would do it, um, a lot of other stringency removers are relatively brutal.
+
+[29:53] Like egg white is a relatively brutal stripping agent. It like will just really tear the hell out of the
+
+[30:00] flavor, script the hell out of it. Um, as a 1st shot, I would just make the drink with an egg white and see whether the egg white, if you have 2 of the, uh, just with your current syrup that you have right now,
+
+[30:14] if, if it's something that can be bound with a protein, just making it with an egg white twice, it's
+
+[30:20] going to change the balance a lot of your cocktail, uh, but it'll let you know whether or not, um,
+
+[30:26] a stripping agent would help, right? Um, not, yeah. Sorry to interrupt, but I did a, I try to milk quash on it, and I like the results, and that's reminded me what the next part of the question is. Is there a vegan alternative to uh, using uh, a milkwash? Okay, well let me think about it. Have you ever tried a milk wash with soy milk? Sorry Mel. I haven't. I don't know. My impression, Don, you tried it? I haven't tried it, but I can imagine that that would work. Here's the thing. I don't know. Maybe someone on the, um, on the what's it called, we'll know on
+
+[31:08] the on the message things we'll know, but, um, usually with soy protein. So it is a protein, right? I've never fined with it, my guess is that soy is... To coagulate soy, you add positive ions, right?
+
+[31:28] You add calcium typically, um, or magnesium, like double positive, which leads me to
+
+[31:36] gas that the soy currently has a net negative,
+
+[31:41] right? I have no idea. I have no idea. I shouldn't even speculate. Like, I would try it, like, and like, I, like, you know, it's definitely an interesting idea. I've done, um, like it's kesel saw, which you add is negative, right? Because then you add kaeda sand, which is positive. So, um, you could I've done, um, the, I've done, um, I forget what it was. I did a geland strip where I added a finding agent to do
+
+[32:08] the, um, to do the attachment and then I added geland to precipitate it out, but that's very gentle.
+
+[32:15] Gelatin is a good stripper, but it's not obviously not vegan. I guess I'm more curious as to why it's the 2nd drink and not from the very beginning, not from that 1st drink.
+
+[32:30] So if you if you would try making, you know, like not rhubarb margarita, like a regular margarita, and then you have a rhubarb margarita as your 2nd drink, is that still feeling
+
+[32:40] too stringent? Oh I don't know. Astringency can build up over time. I mean, astringency as of 5 or 6 years ago, which is the last time I actually looked it up, there was still some debate over the mechanism of astringency, but
+
+[32:56] there are at least some people who believe it's a loss of lubricity on the tongue.
+
+[33:01] Uh, and so you could definitely have an additive effect over time uh, with a stringency. Um, I guess what I would do is, I would try, you know, another sour drink 1st and then have this as 2nd drink, is it a specifically any 2nd drink, or if you had a double-sized drink, by
+
+[33:19] this time you get to the end of that 1st drink, is it just because the accumulation over time, you
+
+[33:24] know? Hey, uh, uh, David, is anyone on the anyone in the chat room around? Has anyone tried stripping with soy? Doesn't look like it now. No, no thoughts on this. Somebody wants to know what about Michael Faba? You know how I got them? Well, someone, someone wants, everyone wants Aqua Aquafaba and everything. No, like a chick, that's more of a hydrocalloid interaction. Like, it's more of a thickening kind of protein thing. I don't know the charge of chickpea juice, but, you know, in general, what, um, you're looking
+
+[33:56] for like an, uh, like an aggregator. And so it's like something that like it's going to bind to polyphenols. And so typically you're looking at proteins like the complex with polyphenols. Other polyphenols like the complex with other polyphenols in
+
+[34:11] the right environment. And certain charged, certain charged things will bond with
+
+[34:19] polyphenols in the right environment. It's an interesting idea. I should look into soy, like soy protein isolates. I mean, just use soy protein isolates. I should try it. It'd be easy enough to look up. Here's the other thing, though. If you look up wine finding, right, which is how you get into this, in wine finding, you will see,
+
+[34:38] and there's lots of scholarly work on it, right? You'll see blood. You'll see egg white. You'll see gelatin. You'll see kieselsol, kitasan, you know, the suspended silica, kitasan. You'll see all of that stuff. I haven't. you'll see, you know, PVPP. You'll see all these things. Um, you won't see, uh, you won't see so much,
+
+[35:04] um, Uh, I've never seen soy, but uh, maybe they haven't, they haven't tried it, but, you know, that's an indicator. What you can do, there are keraginans that are made for finding out beers, and they require a certain amount of heating, probably a little bit above over what you're doing now, 60 C, but there are kappa
+
+[35:22] keraginans that are made to add in small amounts to like bind protein haze
+
+[35:29] in, um, in beers, other hazes and beers. Maybe they would help. I don't know. I don't know, an interesting thing to try. Subjalent. Something you're serving in like a bar or a restaurant or is this something you're just doing for yourself at home? Uh, it's, it will be for a bar restaurant. Yeah. By the way, I am looking into... I wanted to see if I can make it vegan because at home I'm, you know, that's fine. I already had the, or is you already using a bit of aquafaber in it and to give some head and I can't believe I just said that. And that, I'm not sure if that's just, I don't think that's doing any astringency stripping. Let me ask you a question on the Aquafaba. Here's my issue on a lot of texturizing agents and drinks. So I did some experimentation years ago with doping my lime juice with Xanthan gum. And the reason being that I wanted to, you know, if lime juice has 2 functions in a shaken cocktail, right? It's adding solids, proteins for texturizing, and it's adding acidity, which is why you never shake with clarified lime juice,
+
+[36:42] right? Right. Okay. So I thought, well, if a little bit of bodying is good. More might be better. So I added Xanthan gum so it could hold the body better. And this is also in like, anyway. And my thing was, is that I couldn't find anyone who liked it that much better. I wasn't adding enough to make, 1st of all, remember Xanthan, not a whipping agent. So you're not going to, it doesn't make a foam. It just holds the foam you've got, right? To be very clear on what Xanthan does. But, um, I wasn't able to find anyone that liked it better, fresh, but I was able to find people
+
+[37:17] who, at the end of the cocktail, once the cocktail had warmed up a little bit, could taste a different body in it at the end of the cocktail.
+
+[37:27] Now, my question on Aquafaba in a cocktail is do you have the same problem at the end of a cocktail?
+
+[37:33] I don't know, because I've been drinking them quite quickly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I, I, because I really don't, I can really taste egg
+
+[37:46] white, uh, in a drink, which is why I don't like it. You know what you should do on, you see what you do on egg white. Crack and just do this test for me since you're not a vegan. Crack your egg white in the morning, leave it in your
+
+[38:00] fridge, and then use it in the evening and tell me if you can still smell it or taste it. A lot of that stuff is kind of transient, and it's hard to do in a bar because, you know, you don't want to crack out that many in advance, but it's one of the few cases where I think people who do do pre-crack on their egg white and put it in
+
+[38:18] squeezes, it's problematic in some ways because it doesn't dose right, but you know the technique where you crack your egg whites into a squeeze bottle and then you put it and then you jigger your egg white. If you crack it like several hours in advance prior to service, all of that smell flashes away.
+
+[38:33] And so it's actually superior. Okay. And another thing that I don't think I mentioned in the book, in liquid intelligence, I can't remember. I wrote it, you know, quite a while ago, but anytime we're doing testing for drinks, uh,
+
+[38:50] like we have a very firm rule that, uh, you make one and you drink it right away because that's the way God wants you to do it, but then you make another one and you take a sip and then you let it sip for 15 minutes and then you take a sip and let it sit around because some drinks, some drinks which
+
+[39:08] work like off flavors, for instance, egg white drinks on freshly cracked eggs, off flavors will develop after a couple of
+
+[39:13] minutes. Or like in the case of the Xanthan stuff, like bad textures will come out as it warms up. So it's like super good practice, I think, because you can't like guarantee that all your customers are good people. You know what I mean? And that they're gonna drink in a timely fashion. I would also say that if you're doing this at a bar or a restaurant, you can also make this as
+
+[39:32] like an interesting like point of service as well. So you serve them this drink and after they're done, then you follow it up with like, you know, like a tiny like bite that like kind of clears that
+
+[39:40] away, so that if they have the next drink, you don't have that astringency. Yeah, rhubarb's interesting. is challenging. Yeah, that's brilliant. Also, there, guys. Is the is there astringency? There's exalic acid in rhubarb, right? Yeah, but that's what I was trying to, I'm trying to figure out if, I don't know how if, yeah. And I looked at whether there were ways of kind of preferential stripping out the octallic acid or
+
+[40:11] bin, or trying to convert that into something else. Yeah, you know, I'll look into it a little more because there's other people worried about oxalic acid, obviously, for other reasons, and it can be precipitated
+
+[40:22] out, and I believe, aside from being itself, it can add to that kind of astringency. So, I'll look into it. Are you appealing your rhubarb as well? No, so, uh, just um, chopping it. Does that make a difference, Don? Well, the Tinho, when I was working with him at Sambar, was all about the
+
+[40:45] Super Soignier method of peeling the rhubarb, and then boiling the peel separate to extract a
+
+[40:51] color and then using that water to then color the flesh.
+
+[40:54] I don't know if they're, you know, if there's like a, maybe like
+
+[40:58] a, a tannin thing coming out of the skin of it, could be worth a shot. I don't know. Oh, speaking of that. So we might be interested in this. Like, uh, the, uh, so I've been, I've been uh, experimenting with uh, cellulose, the enzymes that break down cellulose because my goal is to make the stringless celery.
+
+[41:17] No luck, man. No luck. So what I did was I cut the celery into like, you know, sticks and then and then put the enzyme into water, vacuum
+
+[41:28] infuse the water into the celery, which by the way, makes it look awesome. Like vacuum, just straight water infused. Celery looks amazing. It looks so awesome. The color. And now I let it sit for like a day and a half . And I think it made it somewhat softer, but my wife was like, not so special. Not so special. I was like, 0 man. But it did make the strings easier to peel off. So then if you if you take your petty or paring knife and you nick the string and pull it, you get a much better pull on
+
+[41:59] that. So it's easier to make like actual cut peel celery, but I've had no luck making the miracle celery, which leads me to believe that those strings are probably also
+
+[42:08] lignant, like lignified. And so I need some sort of enzyme or something that can break lignin down, which is, I think, another level of difficulty above cellulose. But I'm still working on the miracle. Because how nice would it be to have celery that just, it was still crunchy. The pectin wasn't destroyed, but, you know, it was no strings. Wouldn't that be awesome? Be pretty great. Well, you know. It's a species, you know, variety, because we sometimes get celery that isn't
+
+[42:38] stringy, and then sometimes it's horrendously stringy. Wait, you sometimes get celery with no strings at all? Uh, yeah, I think so, but no, no, no, quizzing me. not entirely sure. I think you had a dream salary, my friend. I think you like, you fell asleep, and you're like dreaming of this miracle celery, and then you woke up. I mean, I don't know. Like, I mean, look, if someone developed a variety of stringless celery, I just want everyone to
+
+[43:11] know, if someone developed a variety of stringless celery, I would pay 5 times the price for
+
+[43:15] it. Right? So right now I pay like a dollar for a bunch of celery, I would easily pay $5 for a bunch of stringless celery. And it would be, what would you call it? You call it eating celery, right? Because most people, like, unless you're serving kids like cream cheese, peanut butter, and raisins or something like this. Like most people are not eating the celery. They're like, well, they're eating it chopped up into thin pieces in like a chicken salad or they're cooking stocks or something, but not
+
+[43:42] a lot. I don't walk down the street and see people like shoving celery into their face at a ferocious rate unless they're on some sort of horrendous diet. And you think that the stringiness of celery is the only impediment to people walking down the street eating more celery? I think it's unpleasant to have that wad of strings in your mouth when you're kind of chewing. I don't know. I just think it's a, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think it's the only impediment, but I think if you had one that was like, like,
+
+[44:06] like 8 levels higher than an ordinary piece of celery and it was stringless, that you could build a connoisseur ship. celery is a great flavor. Let's not like, let's not forget that celery, the, you know, often underappreciated celery is freaking delicious. And so, like, I feel that if you, if you had the stringless celery, uh,
+
+[44:25] we could, we could have like a celery revolution. We could we could we could increase people's love of celery, like many fold, I think. What if you went the opposite direction? You made it like even stringier, and then like, you know, partner with the dental associations, and it's like a alternative to flossing. That's crazy talk. That's just crazy talk. Crazy talk, Don. Well, if I if I if I managed to find any stringless celery, I'll bring some to you in sales on
+
+[44:51] tour. Nice. All right, cool. yeah We'll see you there. Bring your string of celery and we'll taste it. All right. Yeah, when is the thing? I'm actually, I'm going to Tales Edinburgh with Don Lee. So what's that? You want to tell him about that? Tales on tour, every year we take tales on the road to another city. We'll be doing 2 years in Edinburgh, so we'll be there this April. I believe it's April 3rd and fourth. the 1st Monday, Tuesday of April, and then we'll be back again next year as well. So, uh, check out TalesToCocktail.com, Tails on tour, Edinburgh for tickets and information. All right, Joe, Joe Ankowitz wrote in regarding cast iron. Hey, David Gang, you've talked before about vintage cast iron pans, having a smoother cooking surface than modern skillets like
+
+[45:31] lodge do. I saw on the YouTube where a guy strips a cast iron pan with something called an Avante quick strip disk available at Home Depot attached to a power drill. Do you think this would make an effective way to smooth out the rough surfaces and lodge
+
+[45:46] pans, like the vintage ones, thanks in advanced Joe? Okay, so I looked into what those are is non-woven, i.e. amorphous, i.e.
+
+[45:54] Scotch bright pads that are impregnated with, um, and 3M makes them too. Impregnated with, like, grinding media, like silicon carbide. And they're hooked onto a power drill. And I looked at one of the YouTube things and it looks like it does work. The good thing about those wheels is they are very gentle because they kind of like move a little
+
+[46:15] bit, so they're going to take off. make fewer deep marks in your pan than what I would use, which is a flexible sandpaper
+
+[46:22] disk. Flexible sandpaper disk is gonna be super quick and get it done super quick. But you will leave marks in it, depending on kind of what grit you choose. I hate, by the way, I hate sanding with a power drill.
+
+[46:36] There's a reason God invented the angle grinder, and it was because power drills suck for grinding, because if you look at the video I saw, When you push a power drill down. You have kind of a long stick coming out, and then the thing at the end. And so as you push it down, um, the movement of the
+
+[46:55] disk as it spins tends to pull and process the drill away from you, uh, and it's hard and like it can be hard on your wrist sometimes if you don't have a good grip on it and it's hard to get
+
+[47:04] nice accurate stuff, whereas an angle grinder is dead straight,
+
+[47:09] like you can control the hell out of it. So I wouldn't go out and buy an angle grinder if this is your only application, but angle grinders, if you do work, where you have to sand things, angle grinders come in really, really
+
+[47:21] handy. Just remember that when you take the guard off of your angle grinder, which I know you will do. Be careful. Uh, like wear gloves because you feed an angle grinder into your knuckle and it's goodbye
+
+[47:33] knuckle. Ive seen it happen. It's freaking nasty. I think they're going to kick us off the air. So, I don't know. What do we got? What do we got left, Dave? You got time for one more? One more. All right. So, Ben, I'm going to answer your corn question on miximalization next time. And also, Mark, I'm going to answer your Yuba question, your pulse making, by the way, I want anyone who has information on this to tweet me in their information, but we have a listener who's interested in making Yuba
+
+[48:01] bean curd skin with alternate sources like peas and other pulses and
+
+[48:06] legumes and wants to know if something like transgutaminates might help. So if anyone has experience making Yuba being curd skins with alternate sources other than soybean, please tweet me at cooking issues and let me
+
+[48:15] know so I have more information for next week when I answer. I have some information, but give me more. So we'll end with Ryan, who writes in about cool ranch. Love the show, listen to every episode, man, that's a lot of episodes. Pre-order the spins all. Thank you for that. The question is, uh, my sister ate in a modern disinflected joint. She was served a lot of foams. She was pretty mad on the experience, but said she'd eat the hell out of it. I am too, but said she'd eat the hell out of a cool ranch, Doritos flavored foam, since she loves the flavor, but hates the fatty fatness of eating a whole bag. I'm paraphrasing. eat the whole bag. look, get a smaller bag. If you get a smaller bag, then you eat the whole bag. not a problem. Right? Right? My motto is that every pizza is a personal pizza feud. hard enough. That's right. Do you like cool ranch Doritos? Who doesn't? Especially with caviar. Really? Oh, yeah. All right. That's try that, people. How would you go about making something like that? More generally, what goes into cool ranch flavor besides MSG? No hate here. I love MSG. Well, there was someone on the webs, and I forgot to write down who they are, but, you know, you search it. foodiemcfoodington.net or something like that. I forget the person's name, who did a knockoff recipe. And the good news is most, uh, like well-known recipes, someone has attempted a knockoff of it. And so their knockoff for chips now. This is not for foam, but we're going to deconstruct backwards. Their knockoff for chips was dry ranch dressing mix. I don't know why you would buy that since ranch is so freaking easy to make from non-mixed, whatever. Don't please people. Don't buy dry ranch mix. Do not buy it. More on that in a second. White cheddar cheese powder. Okay, so there's a cheese flavor in there, which if you're going to do it in a foam situation, you're probably going to have to do in the form of a broth or you could use a powder, I guess,
+
+[49:54] cherry cheese powder, make some sort of cheese brothy thing. smoked paprika, easy enough. Granulated garlic. I wouldn't use that in a powder, I would, but garlic, granulated onion, dried tomato powder. So there's a little tomato and cool ranch. So cool ranch isn't white. a little tinged of red. Yeah, a little red flex in it. All right. and popcorn salt. That size of salt, important just in terms of making Doritos, not in terms of what you're doing. Okay, so what I'm hearing here is ranch plus cheese, plus paprika, extra garlic, onion, and a little bit of tomato. All right? So how do you make ranch? Ranch is, everyone does it differently. Some people use buttermilk. I don't. It's a mixture of the magic 3 salad ingredient things, which is sour cream, mayonnaise and yogurt. You can make basically any, you can use buttermilk, I guess, instead of the yogurt, but any sort of ratio of those that suits your taste.
+
+[50:42] I'm heavy usually on sour cream and mayonnaise and light on yogurt, but that's me. Um, or they're saying light on buttermilk they would do, but anyway, then
+
+[50:49] it's, uh, in that is garlic. Some form of herb. There's urban ranch. So I add always dill. No matter what, always dill, and then more or less partially, but you can add kind of any herb that you want, but
+
+[51:01] the classic, so you must have dill. Did I say that already? You must have dill. And, um, a little bit of parsley. If you add a boat ton of herbs to it, it turns green goddess, which is also really nice. Um, and then, uh, oh, and chives, chives, chives, do not forget the chives. No chives, no ranch. When my son, Dax, who's the ranchmaster at the house, he eats salad because I have him make the ranch, he's like, do you have the
+
+[51:23] Chaz dad? I'm like, no, just substitute onion. He's like, it's not the same dad. I know, but it's what I've got. And then some people, I guess, add Worcestershire sauce. I don't think we really bother. Pepper, a little bit of vinegar. And that's basically it. A little paprika. That's it. So you make a mixture of that, add the other stuff in, some form of cheese flavor, either
+
+[51:41] powdered or not, a little bit of tomato. I would use what's the word I'm looking for, paste because it's got the heaviest flavor and you can add a small amount of it. Make it all up, then strain any solids out. Anything that can't, anything that goes through a very fine mesh strainer will not clog your EC. Anything that goes more will add your gelling agent of choice and foam away, right? What do you think, Don? Sounds good, but I don't see how that's any less fattening. Well, it's basically air. There's no corn chip. I guess. There's no corn chip. You could just use a spoon and just go straight into the ranch. More flavor. More flavor. Oh, yeah, remember, when you're making a foam, you're reducing the flavor by like a factor of a 1000000000 because you have to make a very, very
+
+[52:25] overflavored ranch in order to have any sort of flavor in the foam because you're adding so much air.
+
+[52:32] So you're going to have to up everything. You know what I mean? up everything. You might need to add extra acid, but then you're going to lose some of the creaminess from the buttermilk, but not from the buttermilk. I mean, the sour cream and mayonnaise, this should still work, man. It'll work. It's just seems sub- subpar. I don't know. You have to test it. Has anyone made the cool ranch? Anyway, whatever. Anyway, we'll talk about it next time on cooking issues.
+
+[52:59] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world
+
+[53:28] a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[53:34] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:28] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking, is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from
+
+[0:51] the, where are we? Where are we now, stars? Where? Where? Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual, Nastasia, the hammer, Lopez. How you doing, Stas? We do not have Dave in the booth today. We have Victor in the booth today. Victor, how you doing? Doing great. Yeah? Is your 1st time like being the cooking issues engineer, huh? Yes. So like, what do you like to do, Victor? Well, I like to do a lot of music stuff? in general? Yeah? What about? food? You like food? I like eating, yeah. Yeah? What do you like to eat? What's your favorite? Um, one thing that I eat pretty often is actually rice and beans. I love rice and beans. I'm from Brazil. So I grew up eating that pretty much every day. Well, would that you put that yucca powder all over everything? Yeah, sometimes. You like that stuff? Yeah, like fried yuca and, you know, meats also. Yeah. All right. Brazilian, huh? Yeah. All right, nice. All right, speaking of music, I'm actually not in a bad mood today, Nastasia, because I was listening to kind of like where I musically come from early, early 90s Connecticut
+
+[2:01] rock on the way up. I found like an album from a band we used to play with all the time. I was listening to it, and they still kick, they still kick us. Nice. Yeah, yeah. You may not know those people, but Nastasio Lopez used to be like
+
+[2:15] the, the non, the non-favor granting backstage queen of the... They know this. You've talked about it before. Was it early 2000? early 2000s? and all of them on the radio. Yeah, a lot of people didn't listen to that episode. Is that early 2000s? When are we doing that stuff? Yes, early 2000s. Yeah. I was thinking to myself, like, you know, like, obviously I'm too old to, like, be in the band anymore, but I do miss, like, like listening to that stuff. Like I miss just ending up in like a crumpled mess of like blood and garbage on the floor, which is how all the concerts would end.
+
+[2:48] You know what I mean? Like extremely physical style of playing. You would have hated it. You hate physical styles playing, right? You hate it more than anything. Like, I was all about just beating the ever-loving crap out of my instrument. Like, I would get, I would get in a position where, like, once my wrist would no longer function properly towards the end of the
+
+[3:09] show. I would just kind of lock my wrist and then move my whole arm as one unit, and then eventually try to bend backwards to have gravity, aid my
+
+[3:16] arm and coming down to smash the springs as hard as I could. That was like that early 90s style of playing would have been your worst nightmare. Nastasia, and I, you think we don't get along now. If we had known each other in those days, it would have been a
+
+[3:32] freaking nightmare. Call all of your cooking questions into 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Victor, where are you from in Brazil? Close to San Paulo. State of San Paulo, yeah. Not the big capital. No. Outside, so you don't have to deal with the traffic or you still have to deal with the traffic? Not as much as people who are actually in San Paulo. It's a bit better where I live. Yeah. You ever go to one of Alex Atlas restaurants when you were over there? I haven't. No? No not yet. But is it like, do you go back often? Is it super popular? Is, you know, is he one of those chefs? It's just famous. like everywhere else or is he also famous in Brazil? No, I've heard his name. Yeah. Yeah, and I do go back. I try to go once a year. if I can. Yeah, wacky fruits. Do you enjoy wacky, the wacky Brazilian fruits? A lot. Have you seen the Northeast and north of Brazil? There are pretty pretty cool fruits there. Have you seen the book, The Fruits of Brazil? It's an amazing book. It's blue on the cover, which is very weird with graph paper. you seen this book? Actually, I've seen it. I haven't read it, but it looks pretty nice. Yeah, why would you? mean, you can just buy that crap. Like us in the US, we look at it. like, 0 my God, it's like fruit from Maz. But like, you know, you're like, hey, I just buy that stuff. And I think we've mentioned this before, but there's this, you got to look this book up, people on the Amazon. It's expensive. The cheapest place I ever found it actually was there's a Hawaiian fruit, like, farm that sells reasonably priced copies of this book, but the hilarious thing about it is, is that if you look in the back under exotic fruit, like, it's page after page of things that look like they're straight out of, uh, straight out of a horror show, straight out of, um, you know, uh, whatever that one with uh, suddenly Seymour is,
+
+[5:07] little shop of horrors. Weird, weird freaking fruits, you know what I mean? And then at the end, it's got an exotic section with the apple. Because that doesn't come from there. You know what I mean? They're like all the native fruits of Brazil and then, you know, for their exotic fruit, the apple. Anyway, you know, someday, you know, I've never been to Brazil. Stas, you ever go there? Any desire to go? No desire to go to Brazil? Why? don't know. Why? Would you though? I would love to go to school. That's my rule with anything. That's my rule with anything. Why don't you take vacations? Who has time for vacations? Like, if someone, if there's a reason for me to go for business, I'll go. But I mean, like, uh, here's the thing. I wouldn't go for like the beaches or any of that. I don't care. You know what I mean? It's just like the food, though. I wanna go for the food. Not interesting. huh? No. No. They have pretty good food at the beach, though. Really? Do I have to be near the beach to have the beach food? Yes. Do you like fish? Yeah. Will people will people make fun of me because I will be dressed in full length pants, full length
+
+[6:13] shirt, and a wide brimmed hat with sunglasses on? Yeah, you might want to invest in a Speedo or something. Yeah, that, that, that, my friend, Victor, is something that no one on earth will ever see is me and Espeedo. Like, unless I'm dead. Then they can see me in his veto, right? Maybe we should change my coffin. Yeah, whatever. We are not going to get into that family show, family show. I mean, what do I care once I'm gone? You know what I mean? Anyway. So let's get to some questions. This from Zev. Hey, Dave, I just listened to last week's cooking issues and was disheartened, although not surprised to hear that nobody else was saddened by the Ringling
+
+[6:48] Brothers circus shuddering. Nastasia in particular doesn't care. Would I mention this on there? I talked to a bartender who's actually glad it closed. Did I mention that? I can yeah, I can imagine. Well, she, you know, she was on the animal activist side, which, you know, do you know all the elephant, you know, they stopped having elephants a couple of years ago, but all the elephants now are on like an elephant preserve in Florida somewhere. They're just like living out their elephant ears at a Florida preserve. And whatever. I don't know. You're like, I don't even care about that. Uh, so, um, Zev says, frankly, I would have been shocked if Circus has made it onto
+
+[7:20] the short list of things that Stas doesn't hate. But I think it's more indifference for you. It's a difference. You know, I mean, like, which is, I don't know, is that is that worse for you, indifference or his hatred worse? hatred is worse. Wow, yeah, because her hatred is strong. Since you and I both share a love of cooking and a sentimental soft spot for the circus, I'd like to invite you to join me at the Barclay Center for a show next month. My wife isn't much of a circus fan, but would begin to make it a double date if Jen and or Booker and Dax want to come along as well. Well, I can, I'll check it out. Unfortunately, Booker would rather wear a hot frying pan for underwear and then go to a show of any type. So he definitely won't go, but that, you know, Dax is a possibility. Can you imagine Booker going to a circus? I once took Booker to Walt Disney World, and we took him. at the Universal, it's Universal, right? The Universal Pictures thing that they have there. We took him to a stunt show, a stunt driving slash explosion
+
+[8:19] show, where the heat from the fake pyrotechnic explosions was like so hot that I got a sunburn from
+
+[8:24] it, and it was nothing but all of that. And it wasn't that he was, like, didn't like the noise or anything. He literally was bored out of his mind, turned around, had his back to the explosions. This was a number of years ago, but like, you know, he's just not a, doesn't enjoy shows, booker. You know what I mean? Just doesn't enjoy him. Dax, Dax and toy shows. So, yeah, I'll check it out. Thanks. Then we got the question that I was hoping to get some answers from people off of the chat room, but I don't think we
+
+[8:51] did from Mark on forming Yuba. So I'll just read it. Longtime listener, food science student, writing from the wintry depths of Saskatchewan. I'm in Bark. I like that word. Don't you like that word? Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan. That's good word. Better than the word Saskatoon. Right? Anyway. Um, I'm embarking on a project to produce Yuba like films with other pulses. Last year, being the year of the pulse, now's the year of the rooster, and they don't really, was it really the year of the pulse? I know, I was supposed to do year of the starch, and I didn't really follow through. I did my own starch research, but I didn't really follow through. Anyway. Year of the pulse. We have tons of pulse products kicking around in our university, and hence the project. I've gone through quite a few trials, including Yuba making procedures, beans to
+
+[9:36] milk to film, with one pulse exhibiting more promise than the others. My understanding is that the formation of Yube is independent of the fat and the soybean, and therefore it would mean that most pulses should be able to form some sort of a film barring the different amino acid profiles.
+
+[9:50] I would like to know if there's any way to increase the odds of film formation, would lactones or gypsum using bean curd making, or any one of those things, or
+
+[9:59] transbutaminates help protein realignment and skin formation. Do you think that having more water, i.e. one to 10 being to water
+
+[10:07] ratio would affect yields, and would there also be a lower threshold that may not allow for film formation due to sufficient protein
+
+[10:13] extraction? And is there an easier way to go about this without making 1st a milk? Would the spins all be useful? Spinsaw is always useful, right? Nostasi? No, actually, in this case, I don't think you necessarily need a spin zone. I don't think, eh, we'll talk about it, man. Um, And I would give you the names of the pulses that, uh, what the pulse that was successful, uh, but we've been using sponsored products that with branded names that have no bearing on
+
+[10:38] species. Thanks for taking my question, love the show, love Booker and Dax and can't wait for the new bar to open. Mark, me neither. I cannot wait for the new barnup. We are looking for a space. If anyone out there knows of a place in lower Manhattan that,
+
+[10:51] you know, is closing down or needs a bar into it. Let us know. So back to the Yuba. So for those of you that don't know kind of what Yuba is, um, Yuba is, uh,
+
+[11:02] the same thing as bean curd skin. Most of the time, when you buy it, you're buying it dried, and then you have to rehydrate it, but it's like, it's used in a lot of, a lot of vegetarian dishes like mock duck and these kinds of
+
+[11:16] things. I think it's a fantastic ingredient, but nothing is as delicious. One of the most delicious soy products is fresh Yuba. And I guess you can buy fresh Yuba. I usually make it when I make it. It's kind of a pain in the butt, uh, making Yuba because you have to get these kind of like, um, what you do is, is you make a relatively thick soy milk. So I would think that a thicker soy milk would actually be better for you, Mark. I mean, at least this is my memory. It's been probably a year since I've made Yuba. But then you get a relatively wide pan, because what you're trying to do is you're trying to create an actual skin, very, very much akin to the skin that forms on top of hot milk. And you heat it to kind of a temperature where it's, what's happening is, is that the proteins are aggregating at the surface of the
+
+[12:02] milk in this large sheet, along with the lipids. And according to the research, I read some of the carbohydrate that's in it, some of the sugars and
+
+[12:13] carbohydrate that's in it. forms a protein skin. You pull it off, and then another skin forms. And you can do this again and again, but one of the interesting things about Yuba is that as you are depleting the protein from the,
+
+[12:27] as you're depleting the protein from the, from the soy milk, the Yuba is actually changing over time.
+
+[12:33] So, uh, It's super interesting, super delicious. You hang them up to kind of semi-drive, but just like fresh, warm
+
+[12:40] Yuba with just like a little bit of like a sauce drizzle over the top, fantastic. Um, I wasn't able to find any references for making. And by the way, the what's her name? Andrea and Wynn, if you want to, she has a soy and tofu book that I believe has decent instructions for Yuba, although I was too stupid to take a look at my copy, but before I
+
+[13:01] came. Um, the old shirt leaf book on soy probably has an explanation of Yuba, but I would probably go with
+
+[13:07] the with the NWIN book. Um, to look at it, but if you've never made you, but well worthwhile. Now, as for what's actually going on, your questions with the fat. So some of the studies I looked at show, indeed, that the fat does matter. So it is primarily the protein and protein will by itself form a skin, but either too little or too much fat in the Yuba will negatively affect your
+
+[13:35] yield and also, obviously, the texture of it. Now, the larger... It's kind of interesting. when they do the studies looking at the soy milk as it was being made, they noticed that the protein was being depleted, duh, because it's protein film, but then the lipid fraction of the soy milk, I
+
+[13:56] think, was actually static or going up. And that's because not as much of the fat was being incorporated into the skin, uh, as was in the in the bulk phase, but it
+
+[14:04] was, don't quote me on this because I was reading this research kind of in a flurry this morning. But it was the larger, which makes sense, fat, fat globs that were globules that were getting incorporated
+
+[14:15] in because they're the ones that are floating up close near the surface. So it's an interesting kind of enrichment product. Now back to your problem. They've also done research on Yuba and on tofu for the ratio of what's called the 7 S to 11 S proteins, which are the ones that are studied a lot for tofu formation. And those numbers and there's similar proteins are published for other pulses.
+
+[14:38] And you can kind of look them up and see what your, uh, like 7 S 11 S ratio is and try to, and maybe look at the fat.
+
+[14:47] And I mentioned on the, when we started talking about this last week, an article that has kind of the breakdown of what the soy is versus other
+
+[14:55] pulses, so you can look at them and try to assess kind of what's best.
+
+[14:59] Now, as for using a curting thing, When you're when you're adding a curting agent to tofu, You don't add curting agent to make Yuba. Um, you're favoring aggregation, but it's not the same aggregation that happens in, um, that happens when you're making Yuba, which is, I guess, uh, heat
+
+[15:20] denaturation as well as partial dehydration and aggregation at the surface where the where the dehydration is. It's my guess. You know, plus the fact that that stuff, I guess, as it denatures, I guess, floats up near the top and aggregates. So, is it possible that, like, some slight amount of self-aggregation through, like, like partial coagulation might help? Yeah, but it might ruin the whole thing too. You know what I mean? As it heats. I mean, like, I don't know. Like, I would try it. Because obviously I would try it, but I don't know. On the other side, transgutaminase would probably help as long as it was below a threshold that would,
+
+[15:57] like what I would do you would incubate the milk with the transglutaminates to like slightly increase how aggregated the proteins are, crossing like the proteins are, not enough to gel it, and then heat it to a point where you wipe out the
+
+[16:09] transglutaminates, and now you just have your modified proteins so they could link together up at the
+
+[16:13] top. And I would try to get a fat content fairly similar to what soybean is. make sense to us? Do you like Yuba? No. Really? Not really. But like in any form? Or not the fresh Yuba? Actually, I like books as Yuba. Sloppy Joe. Sloppy, a Yuba Sloppy Joe? What does that mean? Like, he wraps the fake sloppy Joe in the Uber, he hacks Yuba up and mixes... Yeah. Hacks Yuba up. Uh, okay. Now got to go to last week's questions. Give me one moment. Hey, you want to take a commercial break and come right back? All right, we'll come right back. Some more cooking issues.
+
+[16:59] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the
+
+[17:34] guesswork, gets you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[17:40] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[17:55] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Did I really tell people to chill? Really cocktail in that? People. Uh, yeah, I mean, like, whatever. You should never listen to yourself on the air. Like, have you ever listened to the show? And it's horrifying to listen to yourself, right? Well, I don't talk much, but you're funny. Looking. Okay. Oh, speaking of sous vide. So, I built this. So I'm going through a lot of the same problems writing the low temperature, well, sous vide. Remember, I said it before on the air. I lost that argument, right? It's, it's, it's sous vide cooking now. Whether it's in a vacuum or it's not, the imprecise, evil weasels, and marketeering jackwads of the world have won, and everyone freaking calls the technique sous vide, even
+
+[18:56] though, like, I very rarely use a vacuum machine. Am I still bitter about it? Am I still angry about it? Yes, it's not sous vide cooking for the most part, but, you know, whatever. Like, I don't know, what other things are like that are like completely imprecise and yet
+
+[19:10] have like they win? And it's French word. Like, it's so weird. You know what I mean? I mean, look, obviously, I understand maybe low temperature is not like, you know, a rousing word. No one's like running to the, you know, running off to make some, I'm
+
+[19:25] gonna make low temperature blah. you know what I mean? Maybe the French uh, term, juice goddamn, that uh, Bruno Gousseau uses a jusca, the exact temperature. He's like, the temperature is not always low. It is the exact temperature. I'm like, he doesn't talk like that. He's got a, you know, an older French man voice, but like, in a nice French man voice, but you know what I mean? different French man voice. But anyway, so he's just got them. And I'm like, jusqueton, tom, not tempton, jusqueton. Anyway, so like, uh, that doesn't work in English either. Or either. And, uh, yeah, so sous vide, I've lost that. But I've been working on it, and one of the, and this actually kind of dovetails with a question we had a couple of weeks ago, um, for those of you that do cook in a sous vide, now I'm talking in a vacuum machine, or, you know, using things that are vacuum packed,
+
+[20:13] or, uh, in an immersion circulator at all, at lower temperatures. One of the kind of problems is that red
+
+[20:19] meats in particular, um, look kind of bloody to a lot of people. And so most of us tour cooks, you know, don't like Trump eat our steaks well done. Although I was told, who is it that told me that Obama also liked the steaks well done? Was he lying to me? Was he just trying to be like non-partisan and like tell me that, like, is it that presidents have to eat their steaks well done because, uh, because they're so worried that they're
+
+[20:48] going to get the poops while they have to run the free world? Is that what it is? It's like, it's like in space, you're not allowed to have anything that's cooked, you know, rare in space because getting the craps in a space capsule is like the end of all
+
+[20:59] ends. Like, you know, you get all that stuff sprayed all over the inside of the capsule is like the end of times for you. It's the same thing being president. You told me that the story you heard was that they used to have like a setup for doing low temp cooking at the White House. They got rid of it. They got rid of it, right? Didn't care for it. anyway. Well, you know, who needs it if you're gonna cook everything well done anyway, right? If you're just gonna like, if you're just gonna take like every piece of protein that you
+
+[21:24] have and like, you know, burn the hell out of it, well then why do you need to do low temperature, am I right? Anyway, anyway, disappointed. eggs though, right? If you're gonna do brunch, it's the only... Yeah, but I guess, but you know what? I guess how small is the White House kitchen? Did you get to see it? Like, uh, I mean, is it, I wonder whether it's big or whether it's small like the James Beard house. I mean, the thing about, like, if, I mean, maybe they have a big enough staff. They can just have someone sit there and do the eggs, maybe they do it, Kenji, Kenji Lopez, all style, and they just dump all of the eggs in at once
+
+[21:56] and, like, let them separate out. You seen that where he poaches like 10 eggs at a time and then pulls them out. Anyways. Point being that, or maybe they just don't do eggs Benedict. I mean, if I was the president of the United States, I'd be like, you know what I feel like while I'm running the free world? I feel like some eggs Benedict. And then the next day, I'd be like, you know what, I feel like, eggs Florentine. I would just do every single poached egg on an English muffin kind of
+
+[22:19] prep that I could possibly have prepared for me, like at any time, day or night, because poached eggs. If I had someone on staff who would constantly bring me poached egg
+
+[22:28] preparations, like that's what would happen. We'd have to rename them American muffins if I was president because that's how many of them I would eat. You like English muffin. You like an egg Florentine, right? What do you like better? Benedict or Florentine? Florentine. Really? Uh, because you like the spinach. Huh. But how much do you hate it when they don't press enough the liquid out of the spinach, and it bleeds that disgusting black spinach water all over everything, and it sops into the freaking English muffin, and it's just like a
+
+[22:54] messy, like, gob of garbage on the bottom of your, does that irritate the hell out of you? Anyway, I forget how he got into this. Oh, so one of the problems when you're, yeah, when you're, when you're cooking low temperature, one of the problems is, is that
+
+[23:05] the, the color of the meats is often off-putting to, um, people. So, as, you know, one of the prejudices that we, as cooks have to overcome a lot of the time with people we cook for is that, um, and I have to overcome this
+
+[23:24] myself. This is, I'm talking about myself, but I think also for a lot of our listeners, is we feel like we know what you would like if you had your brain screwed
+
+[23:32] in straight. You know what I'm saying? Like, or your head screwed on straight. So it's like, I know for a fact that you would like the taste of this steak better if it was cooked,
+
+[23:42] but for God's sakes, below 57 Celsius, right? Like, I prefer to 55, I can understand if you don't want a 55, but for God's sakes, you don't want it higher than 57. You really don't. You know what I mean? And, like, you know, and we all have this feeling, people who cook this way, that if I just put a blindfold over you and gave you the steak the way I want you to want the steak, that you would want the steak the same
+
+[24:05] way. But the problem is, you can't really cook that way. You can't cook based on what you think somebody else should like. You have to cook based on what they actually like. And if they see meat that looks too red for them, for whatever reason, whether they're a germaphobe, like Trump, whether they grew up eating shoe leather,
+
+[24:22] so that they need shoe leather in order to feel like that stuff's going to be good, who knows why? Like maybe they grew up eating their steak drenched in A1 steak sauce. Were you one of those people's sauce? Were you a ketchup? Whoa, on steak? Ketchup on? Whoa. What does it matter? With scrambled eggs? No. It matters because of the addition of Worcestershire sauce makes it more steak-like. I'm just saying, if it's like a piece of something, with like sugary tomato stuff on it. Sugary vinegary tomato stuff. Look, I'm with you, but like my point is, is that, but so food was horribly over, no offense. Food was horribly overcooked in your house, yeah? So you needed to cut things into small pieces and douse them and stuff to make them palatable, right? They still frankly have a nice meat tape. Look, meat has a nice meat taste when it's overcooked. It's just a texture of it that is objectionable to us kind of sous vide and low temperature jockeys, right? We would prefer the rare steak. But on the other hand, right? I mean, this is what I think the average person who, the average person who looks at a rare steak
+
+[25:24] cooked traditionally, right, uh, thinks that it's going to be that bloody, squidgy, you know that when I say squidgy, you know what I mean, right? That squidgy texture on the inside of a steak. Well, the issue is that the color of a steak is
+
+[25:39] only, um, I mean, it is related to, but not directly related to the temperature
+
+[25:44] at which the steak is cooked to, right? So, uh, you can have a vacuum pack steak that's cooked for a long time at a temperature that is not squidgy, right? And one that you might actually accept as medium rare, let's say you're a medium rare person, but it still looks too rare for you to
+
+[26:01] eat, and so you're put off by it. And the reason for it, the reason this happens, is that the actual, well, there's a number of reasons. One, uh, the protein that's in, and we talked a little bit about this, but the protein that's in uh, steak and meats in
+
+[26:17] general, uh, that causes it to be red or not is uh, mild globin. Myoglobin comes in 3 basic forms in meat. It comes as the oxymyoglobin, which is a red one. We talked a little bit about this before. And the deoxy myoglobin, which is what you get inside of a vacuum bag, it's kind of purplish, and
+
+[26:37] met myoglobin, which is kind of the brown stuff that happens as it oxidizes, right? And what color the meat? and again, we talked about I just ran some more experiments, in fact, this morning, the color of the meat, as it cooks is directly related to the state that the myoglobin is in as you cook it.
+
+[26:57] So I cooked. I took a thin piece of eye of round,
+
+[27:02] which, by the way, I think, is a garbage piece of meat, like on its own. You ever just eaten, like tucked into it. You take, so like something like an eye of round. You know, I, you know, the round, round the, like, the back end, the back side of the leg of the cow there, that
+
+[27:14] area, and the eye of round is a relatively lean cut with relatively little going on.
+
+[27:20] If you long, but people want to cook that one low temperature because it doesn't have that much connected tissue so they think they
+
+[27:26] can. It's also very lean and all these idiots who are like super pro, excuse
+
+[27:30] me if you're one of these idiots, but like who likes super lean, lean meat, like think it's going to be a good piece of meat, but it's just not very interesting piece of
+
+[27:38] meat. Like, it doesn't offer a lot of textural variation across the meat. It is not good if you overcook it. I mean, it's good kind of as a London broil, where you just char the piss out of the outside, and so it's like kind of
+
+[27:50] crunchy, and then slice it thin, real thin on like, and then like, and then like put sauce on it or something like that. Anyway, I digress. So I had these pieces of the of the round, and I cooked them to very accurate temperatures within a 10th of a degree, I did a temperature ramp because I built
+
+[28:07] it. I built my own kind of, the reason this came up is I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to take pictures for the book. If you go on cooking issues, the blog, it still exists. We haven't done anything with it in years, but there's a section called low temperature or
+
+[28:21] sous vide primer. And in it are a series of pictures and charts that I developed when I was working at the French culinary to teach low temperature and
+
+[28:28] SUV stuff way back in the day, like 0809, something like this. or even earlier, 07. And we put them up on the blog when the blog started in 10 or whatever and we started it. And, um, I'd worked a lot on trying to take pictures of meats at various kind of
+
+[28:42] temperatures and I always found it was very hard because it, like, how much oxygen was on the meat really changed kind of the way it looked. And so today, I built like a plate heater, like a super accurate flat plate heater, um, and was taking pictures of the meat and meat that's cooked even very accurately and very
+
+[29:01] quickly, uh, just up to 50, 50 or 55 degrees Celsius, which is rare, rare, rare,
+
+[29:09] rare. Brown when it was cooked in full oxygen. So my recommend- my recommendation to you is that let's say you have, uh, this goes against some of my recommendation, for any of you who've known me for like a decade or
+
+[29:23] more. I always recommend that when you're vacuum packing meats, right? Uh, that you, especially if you've just started learning how to vacuum pack, that you let
+
+[29:33] meat sit in the vacuum pack for a half hour or an hour before you have to cook.
+
+[29:39] Why? The answer is because a good chunk of your vacuum packages will be bad. If you've just started learning how to vacuum a good number on the order, I've seen some students where like 10% of their vacuum packs are bad because they haven't figured out how to accurately align the bag along the
+
+[29:57] ceiling arm. They are, you know, get little pieces of pepper or spices into the seal,
+
+[30:03] uh, for whatever reason, they they don't get a good seal. And over the course of that half hour to hour that it sits before you cook it, you can sit in the fridge or whatever, you'll notice where leaks happen because the bag will start to come away from the
+
+[30:18] meat. You'll also notice if you're bagging something with bones, you'll notice that the bone,
+
+[30:23] like if a bone accidentally punctured your bag, which is, you know, you should take care of the wrap bones and things like cellophane, uh, you know, not polyethylene wrap, uh, to
+
+[30:33] try to protect them, but, or to stop them from puncturing your bag. But that half hour, uh, can mean the difference between getting a leaker and leakers can be okay in the sense that sometimes not enough product leaks into your bag to ruin your meat, but they can also be
+
+[30:48] catastrophic. I've had like leakers where they leak so much that they might as well be in the water bath, which is gross. You've seen those bags, right, Stas? They are disgusting. So I made that recommendation, but for something like a meat, a steak, that you're going to serve at a relatively low temperature, let's say 55 degrees Celsius around thereabouts. Um, I recommend cutting it out of your vacuum bag. If it came in a vacuum bag, uh, doing maybe a pre-seer, uh, but wait, but before you do any of that, just let it sit out for like 20 minutes, 30 minutes on a rack, in your fridge, out, wherever you're
+
+[31:28] going to do it, let it oxygen up. Let the meat get as much oxygen in it as possible. Now, this is not good for long term storage stability, right? Because you want as little oxygen as possible on the meat for long-term storage ability. But in terms of the color development of the meat as it cooks, you want to have it
+
+[31:48] out and like oxygen going into it for a while. And so how fast it diffuses in is something I'm still trying to look up and I'm trying to figure out a way that I can steal,
+
+[31:58] borrow or beg an oxygen probe so I can actually measure the time it takes for oxygen to get to the middle of the steak when you've taken it
+
+[32:04] out. If anyone knows anyone out there who can lonely one or has one, has to be one that I can actually measure like
+
+[32:10] with a probe, an, you know, an IR, one, a fiber optic one. Um, optical rather. Um, You let it oxygen up like that. Then I would do a ziploc bag instead of vacuum for your cook step because it's going to have less depletion of oxygen because you're not going to have subjected it to a vacuum and then have it go right in the bath. Like, boom, right in the bath. And then the faster the heat travels through that, while there's still oxygen there, the better off you're going to be. So let's say you're going to cook your steak to 55. I know it's a long explanation, but I'm thinking a lot about it and, you know, this is a problem people have. Let's say you were going to cook a steak to 55. The real life truth is that you're going to take that steak and you're going to sear it
+
+[32:52] afterwards. And so the stuff that's, you know, not right around the edge. In other words, even up to like a quarter of an inch is going to be a couple of degrees higher than 55, So what I would do is I would throw it in at a higher temperature. I would throw it in at like 57. Um, 57, maybe even 58, 57 is probably safer. Let it sit for like 10, 15 minutes, then put it down at 55, let the bath drop to 55 as it would. This is for a thick steak, by the way. Thin steak, just put it right in a 55. Thin steak, right in 55. talking thick steak. Uh, it'll come in. You won't overcook the center. You'll overcook by a couple of degrees, a little bit of the stuff around the side, but you're going to have denatured that, um, uh, myoglobin faster, um, then it can deplete its oxygen as
+
+[33:39] as as it's uh, packaged that way. And you're better off there, you're going to have a better chance of getting a better colored meat for your customer that doesn't like that cherry red.
+
+[33:50] The other thing you can do that we used to do all the time is if you pre-slice your meat, which is a good idea with steaks. you know, I like doing is you bring it out, you do your hard sear, you do your hard sear on it. I always drop the temperature down to 50 or even lower before I do my hard
+
+[34:04] sear so I don't overcook the meat. When you slice it, you can do a real fast flash under a salamander or grill or even with a
+
+[34:13] searsal and just decolor that top and take it right off. But anyway, one of the things I've been talking thinking about, more, since we answered that question, so I thought I'd deal with it. And then, you know, we can talk a little bit, maybe next time about the miracle of moisture management and how that affects low temperature
+
+[34:29] CV cooking. Anyway, um, That helped no one, right? Stas? No one, no one. No one cares. Um, okay. We got a question in from Ben. I'm not sure if this is the best place to send this question. Yes, it is, because here it is. We have it, right? But I'm hoping to clear up an issue I'm having when I attempt to deep fry a taco shell made of
+
+[34:49] nystamalized corn. Uh, so if it fills you that, I don't know, nixtimalization, uh, you know, I like it a lot. It's like super awesome. The technique is where you take traditionally corn, um, and you soak it, you heat it, partially, gelatinize it, and, um, in an alkaline, in an alkaline mixture.
+
+[35:12] Typically calcium hydroxide or cal. Uh, and you heat it, it partially gelatinizes the, um, the starch in the corn partially cooks it. It also turns the outside of the, you know, of the corn into a
+
+[35:26] goop, and then you wipe the goop off. It's now easier to mill, which is why it originally did, but also the goop that remains. And so like part of the art of niximalization is how much you cook it, i.e. how much of it starts, you
+
+[35:39] gelatinize, how much you cook it out, so much, how much water is it taking, et cetera. Also, how much of the cow do you have and how much of that cow taste, that calcium hydroxide taste, which is what distinguishes a tortilla from a
+
+[35:52] cornmeal, flavor, and then how much you rinse off the goop on the outside, because the goop on the outside, along with the germ from the corn, the fat and the other stuff from the germ of the corn is what gives masa, which is the dough for tortillas, it's amazing
+
+[36:08] properties and why you don't need to add anything else to it to get it to work. Um, so anyway, so that's what next normalization is. I continue with the question. Uh, the problem I've encountered is that when attempting to fry the uh, nixtamalized shell after property uh, cooking the corn, um, using the
+
+[36:25] nixonalization process outline in the cooking issues blog, they tend to puff and become tough, not crispy.
+
+[36:31] My question lies, and the only solution I found to be effective, overcooking the corn. When I am nixtimalizing the corn, I cook it to the point where it is soft all the way through. My understanding is this is not ideal for making masa, but when I grind,
+
+[36:44] press, and fry this overcooked, almost gummy corn, the shells are thin and crispy. Any insight on why this may be. I appreciate the time. Thanks, Ben. Okay, so... Uh, now, it's been a long time since I've done heavy
+
+[36:58] nixtimilization work and many people, many, many people have done a lot of work over the past, oh, you know, six, what are 7 years, whatever it was since I wrote that post, on
+
+[37:09] nixtimilization. What? Nine? No, I didn't write it. When did I write the Nixonization Post? Really? Anyways, whatever. Old man. So, uh, so it's been a while, so I, like, I don't have it in
+
+[37:24] my, in my fingers and in my blood the way I did back then, but the, um,
+
+[37:30] puffing is usually a good sign, when you're making a fresh tortilla, right? So like most people, and remember, there's all different kinds of, uh, grinds of, uh, masa. So a coarser masa is going to puff less on a kamal than a, by the way, did you say that you cooked them on a kamal before you tried to fry them? Uh... Properly cooking the corn, miximization, tend to puff. Let me see. When I am next, my understanding is not a different, I grind, press, and fry. You're cooking it before you fry it, right? You still have to fry, you still have to cook it on a Kamal before you fry it. Right? I mean, like, I'm pretty sure you probably already do that because you have to do that. But, um, very fresh, especially very finely ground tortilla should puff and be very kind of like light and like that's like a hallmark of a good style
+
+[38:25] tortilla. I also like denser coarser tortillas. Those will not puff as much. So you could deal with the coarseness of grind there. I've never attempted to overcook the heck out of corn to see kind of what happens. The other thing is that the fresher of the tortilla is the more it's gonna puff. And so I have honestly never fried a tortilla, the day I've made it, because whenever I'm next to melizing, I nixtamalize for fresh soft use. And then if I'm gonna fry, I'll fry like day
+
+[38:59] old, um, day old tortillas, not like the tortillas I just made that day because. The amazing thing about fresh massa. The taste of it is actually fine the next day. It's okay. I mean not fine. okay the next day, but what you're never going to get back is that texture. You know what I'm saying? Stasia? You're never going to get that texture back. So here's what I would recommend. One, just make sure that you're cooking it out on a Kamal, like perfect, you know, well, because you need to get rid of some of the moisture in that cooking process and to cook the tortilla together so that it has structure.
+
+[39:33] One of the, if you say it's gummy, if it's puffing and gummy, It's got, it must be having, as it puffs, it probably has the ability to store too much residual water. It's hard for you to dry out the tortilla. Frying a tortilla until it's crispy is essentially the art of removing all of the water from it before it scorches. I'll give you an example of how I fry tortilla chips. I take, I don't, I don't make, I buy, when I'm making tortilla chips, I just buy garbage, uh, tortillas because I'm
+
+[40:00] gonna fry the heck out of them anyway. I shouldn't probably admit that, but I do. But you can throw a tortilla chip. I think I said this on the air before. You can throw like a cut cold tortilla chip into cold oil and just ramp up the temperature because all you're doing is getting rid of all of the water that's in that tortilla.
+
+[40:19] So if it puffs, it's probably going to be more difficult for you to get rid of all
+
+[40:23] of the water that's on the inside than when it deflates. It's not going to be, um, it's not going to be crunchy. In fact, if you take any fresh tortilla and you fry
+
+[40:33] them and you fry them at too high of a temperature, right, you'll notice that some of the tortillas will start to brown because the water has left
+
+[40:40] them, and you have to pull them out, and you'll notice a blonding area on the other parts of the tortillas, and those will be soft, even a marginally under fried tortilla chip is gross and
+
+[40:52] tough. Uh, so like what I would, what I typically do. And you know, a lot depends on how fresh your oil is. So if you're frying at home, I don't know where you're frying, but if you're frying at home, um, older oil tends to color your tortillas faster and younger oil tends
+
+[41:08] to um, make them more blonde. So I always just test the texture of them when I'm pulling out, if I don't, if I'm walking in a situation. I don't know what condition the oil is in. So you just pull it out and you tap on it with your hand, like, you tap on it and you can feel instantly with the tip of your finger. I mean, if you aren't used to doing this, you're going to burn the hell out of your finger, but if you've already burnt the hell out of your finger so many times that your finger has no feeling left in it,
+
+[41:32] like you can just tap the surface of a tortilla, just pull it out for a 2nd, let it drain, tap, tap, tap, feel the surface of it and know whether or not you've gotten rid of all the water. Obviously, also, like looking at it visually for the amount of bubbling coming out of it is a good sign for, um, how much water you've gotten out of it. But what's interesting to me is that overcooking it appears to have made it easier for you to extract all of the water from the tortilla.
+
+[41:55] Um, and I don't know why. It's interesting that that's the case. But anyway, those are the, in this order. I would maybe grind it not quite as fine. I would, uh, make sure you're thoroughly cooking it out on a, on a, well, we say a
+
+[42:12] kamal. griddle is what we all use. Even like I use cast iron sizzle platters sometimes to do them. Uh, two, uh, like let them sit around for a while to kind of cool off and retrograde before you fry them, uh, so that they act more like an old tortilla than a new tortilla, uh, and then
+
+[42:29] maybe uh, take your oil temperature down a little bit and let it fry until it
+
+[42:33] stops uh, bubbling. But yeah, you don't want them to, because you can take a tortilla chip that puffs and still fry it really crispy, like witness, if you've gone to a Mexican restaurant that fries its own chips, you'll notice that every once in a
+
+[42:45] while you'll get like a hugely bubbled tortilla chip. It's still crunchy as hell because they fried all the water out of it, right? Anyway. You know what I hate Nastasia, when they when they when they haven't properly drained the tortilla chips and you get that tortilla chip with the bubble, but the bubble still has the oil in
+
+[43:02] it. You know what I'm talking about? You've never had that happen. You've never been in a restaurant and they give you that basket of chips. And 1st of all, here's another thing I don't like. I don't like when the chips come and they didn't bother to unfold the tortilla, so you had that tortilla that's folded in half, or when they didn't bother to shake the freaking basket, so you have like 3 tortillas glued
+
+[43:18] together and the one in the middle is that gummy nonsense. These are the tortilla fowls, my friend, you've had that happen, Nastasia. That is a tortilla fowl. Here at the top order of tortilla fowls at a Mexican restaurant is 1st not giving you tortillas. Smack yourself. That stuff doesn't cost that much money. Give me some freaking tortillas. Remember right? Have you noticed this recently? They, like, people have gone skimpier and skimpier on the tortillas when they hand, you like a basket of tortilla chips,
+
+[43:42] right? What? Yeah, stuff's good. So, uh, under fried tortillas, nightmare. fried in rancid oil, so it tastes like cardboard, frigging nightmare, undersalted tortillas, freaking nightmare, and tortillas that they
+
+[43:57] didn't, that they didn't bother to separate. So no tortillas is worse than rancid oil tortillas. Ooh, there's no, this is a good question. Would I rather, would I rather just to not have to converse with people have the loud internal head crunching that tortilla brings, even if I also have to have with it that rancid cardboard flavor of the bad oil?
+
+[44:22] How much, how much salsa do I have? and is it spicy enough to cover the? Yeah, I guess that's the... That's the question. Like, I'll sit there and crunch on ice. I'll do anything, you know? Is it not? Well, you know, it depends, like a party or something like this? You know what I mean? You're the same way. Yeah, but you you pretend you don't like to talk, but you talk a lot. Yeah. Well, no, but, like, it depends on like whether or not, like, I know the people are not. Like, you notice, like, if we're at, like, in, like, a new situation, we sit there and she's like, well, fill my water fast because
+
+[44:54] I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick up something and eat it or drink it, like, at a phenomenal rate, just so that my mouth is always doing something. You know what I mean? So anything, so I think like in an awkward social situation, the rancid tortilla, it's better than no tortilla. So long as there's a salsa. Because it's not worth the temporary feeling okay about munching that thing just so the crunch is like drowning everything out because when you eat that much rancid oil later on in the night, you're just like, it's
+
+[45:23] not that, I don't ever feel sick because I'm not a human being. I'm built of like some sort of like iron device that allows me to like ingest anything without harm. But you just feel gross. You just don't feel good. You know what I mean? There's a difference between feeling sick and just not feeling good about what you've done. You know what I mean? You know, anyway. That's my thoughts on tortillas, cooking issues.
+
+[45:56] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[46:31] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:27] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:39] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to live from a Bruce Pizzeria on the Heritage Radio
+
+[0:47] Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 in Bushwick. Oh, yeah. Well, there's actually nobody here right now because Roberta's is closed. They had their staff party last night. he said. Oh, because every year, dude. Every year. It was like they were mopping up a murder scene this morning. Every free year. Okay, so Nastasia De Hammer Lopez is with us. We got Dave in the booth. How are you guys doing? So what the hell, man? Porter has to come in. I see the freaking poor porter has to come in and move stuff around. Yeah, they party and then they can't go to work. Listen, listen, you know who I told you? you know who I respect? No offense, you guys here, Roberta. You're not here to be offended. But, like, the freaking guys at, like, Nomad at EMP. They will burn their freaking 4 star restaurant to the freaking ground. They'll be open there. Right. They'll like be like, they'll be swimming in the, in like pools of their own liquor and vomit. They will somehow manage to like pressure wash the nastiness off of their bodies and show up and deliver impeccable service the next day.
+
+[1:50] That is the way it is done. That You know what I'm saying? Yeah, this place. No offense. Say, look, I like you guys. I like you guys. I'm just saying. Nastasio intends to offend. Fears outside, like, did you walk in that way? I walked in through the, yeah, it smells like beer. It smells like there's like sticky on your shoes. There's a wine bottle in the entry here. It's like a movie theater? It's awful. Let me ask you a question. makes me angry. I knew this guy with his, like, look at him. No, he's literally, so the porter has covered himself like Batman in a, in
+
+[2:25] like some sort of cape of a recycled bag so he's not showered with the disgusting stuff that he has to like wade through now. He literally has a Batman cape on. A blue plastic trash bag as a as a Batman cave to protect himself from the horror. makes me so sad. Dave, is that it? Oh, my God, Dave. A family show. I think that's one of the servers. Oh, God. Family show, family show. Miss, do you need help? Family show, Dave. Jeez, Luis. There's a disco ball here. steal that. I love disco balls. Still going, I don't think they would notice. I built a disco ball. I told you that story, right? I built a disco. I made it myself. I'd have the money, so I literally took a mirror and cut it with glass cutters and glued it to a Styrofoam ball, found my
+
+[3:09] child. this is in college, found my childhood erector set motor, glued like 2 by 4s together, had a bat, I took,
+
+[3:16] back in the day, we used to have these, um, power supplies on our
+
+[3:20] computers so they wouldn't go down, strapped one of those to my back with a strobe light and like a blender and would walk around playing like disco music with a strobe light and a disco ball over my head.
+
+[3:31] I like disco balls. Who doesn't like disco balls? See you were the party. I was the party. I was a party. I, uh, we had a gig one night and I brought it to the gig and I actually played with the disco ball over my head because we were playing in some crappy bar called Poco
+
+[3:48] Loco. And Walt, the guy who ran Poco Loco, made some inappropriate, like hand touching of the guitarist girlfriend.
+
+[3:56] Anyway, that aside the point, I lost a disco ball that night. It was a, we can get him in trouble for this. We were not playing disco though, Dave. In case you did not know this, you walked around with this good music thing. I walked out sometimes, but when I was at the gig, I was playing, you know, our early 90s kind of grunge
+
+[4:15] punk grunge funk punk that, you know, we were that part of that part of it. We were at the same time as we weren't part of anything. You big tripeps fan there? We were, but 1st of all, they lost me. Mother's milk was the last album that I liked. So everyone that knows the chili peppers. Like I was an uplift mofo party plan kind of a fellow and a huge fishbone fan.
+
+[4:38] I was a giant fishbone fan. Like, so, like, I started, I just had nothing to do with anything, but, like, that, in that era, like, I was listening to, for California stuff, I
+
+[4:48] was like, chili peppers, fishbone, but early stuff, as soon as Anthony Kita started doing ballads, I was like, no,
+
+[4:53] no. You know what I mean? And then what else? I don't know. I used to listen to, I don't know, like of that style, that's what I listened to. Plus, I listened to all the actual old stuff and, you know, we like Jane's addiction a lot. People still listen to trans addiction? I don't think so. Really? That was such good stuff. Nothing shocking, such good stuff. Uh, anyway. So, oh, by the way, Nastasia, and the search goes on, we still do not have a space for the new
+
+[5:20] bar. I thought we had a new space for the bar, and, you know, my partner went to the community board, and they're not granting any new liquor licenses in that area. Nothing. Oh my God. They're such jackweeds, man. It's so hard to start. What community board? What a number is it? It was on Avenue A. No, but what's the... So, like, uh, like the, uh, thing. Yeah, three, right? So I think, like, so for those of you that don't know, start, like New York, as I said before, as much as I love it, it's incredibly unpleasant for a large number of reasons, one of which
+
+[5:52] is like starting a business in New York City. The reason they say if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. is not that the customers, it's like literally, if you can jump through the freaking hoops to do what you need to do here, then you can basically do that
+
+[6:05] anywhere because the city is designed to stop you from doing anything. Whether that is like, you know, it's to stop you from like being able to build anything because you literally can't get anywhere to do
+
+[6:15] anything. Or like, we've had this discussion before. Like when you, you know how when you go in the suburbs and you buy something, you can leave it in your car
+
+[6:22] for like at least like five, 10 minutes? You can buy it at a Home Depot, then go to a stop and shop and you'll know your car will still be there. Yeah. Oh, it's not like a taxi. You'd be like, hey, taxi. or Uber. Hey, can you hold like this 35 tons of crap that I need to actually do or build something? No, which is why here in New York, people hire people to do the simplest freaking things. Because everything here is impossible. So starting a uh, starting a bar, which one of the reasons I like it, like I like things. I liked self-punishment, right? Which is one of the reasons I like, you know, kind of like New York, but I mean, starting a bar in New York, 1st of all, if you want to get a liquor license in
+
+[6:58] this city, right? If you don't if you don't want to apply fresh. Let's say I wanted to be on Avenue A, which by the way, I do. Here's the thing. You'd need to take somebody's liquor license, who's still operational. You'd need to take them on as a 20 at least 27% partner for 2 years. Otherwise, it's basically a new application. Now, they might grant a new application to a place that already had an application, but you never
+
+[7:22] know. They might not. You know what I'm saying? So you're taking someone in for this 2 years. Then, you know, so if you if you try to get a new liquor license, they're like, no, or they're like beer and wine only,
+
+[7:34] right? And here's their thing. This neighborhood's already saturated. They don't want the bars. It's like, what the hell do you think you're doing? Listen, I'm I'll be 46 in March. I remember what the East Village, what alphabet city was like in the 80s. It was a stinking hellhole. All right? Now, what is it that these people want to go back to? Like, what is it? Is it that like five-year period, like between when the heroin addicts left the park and when all of a sudden, like all of the NYU students and people started coming into bars, is it that five-year period that they're jonesing for? Or in the
+
+[8:11] mid 90s, right? You know what I mean? Or is it, or is it that, like, these old geezers who are on this thing, what they really want is they wanted to live in their leather pants and grunge and punk life back
+
+[8:22] when, when, that was that? Because it was cool back then. And now they just want to live in mellow senescence for the rest of their life with nothing else happening. Bars need to be where other bars are, and they don't get that, right? So they're like, literally, if you want a license, there needs to
+
+[8:37] be, like, what they say, not a saturation of places around. So, if you're opening a restaurant, this is the theory I've been telling everyone, they need to listen. If you're trying to open a restaurant, right? You can be in a neighborhood that doesn't have a zillion other restaurants around
+
+[8:51] you because if I'm going to go to lunch or if I'm going to go to dinner, I'm only going to go to one place for lunch or dinner. One, one place, and then I'm probably going to go either to another part of town or do something else. It's nice to have bars and other stuff around, but I'm giving you a big chunk of my time if I'm going to a restaurant. A bar on the other hand, right? Either you want to be near a bunch of restaurants, so people will go to you right before they go to dinner or right after they go to dinner as a 2nd thing to do, or you want to be where there's a bunch of other bars
+
+[9:18] around because a huge chunk of your population is going from one
+
+[9:22] bar, having a couple of drinks, and then go into another bar and having a couple of drinks. They don't want to spend all night with you. And so, and also, if there's another bar near you and they're full, you can send them back and forth through a different bar. So bars, especially cocktail bars, they all want to be together. The exception is like local hellhole bars. Like my favorite hellhole bar is the Holland bar. I've been in years, but I was a regular at that bar. It's up near Port Authority, which is the nastiest, was the nastiest kind of place I'd ever lived. I've lived in nasty places, but you know what I mean? Like, physically nasty place, but I love that bar. In that bar, you show up at, like, 5.30. You start, you go out, you get a slice of pizza, and you come back and you close them down. That's the kind of bar it is, but that's not the kind of bar we're opening, right? And so they don't care, right? They don't care in these community boards that, you know, you're not,
+
+[10:12] uh, you're not like doing a club-based thing where a bunch of like, you know, underage kids are
+
+[10:17] going to come and party all night long. They don't take it into account. They just don't give you the freaking license. So, like, one of my partners was at the meeting yesterday and they wanted to grant somebody, get this, a restaurant, beer and wine
+
+[10:29] license. This is in the East Village, New York, beer and wine license only, with never the possibility of liquor. Right now, you can get along with a beer and wine license at a restaurant, at a restaurant. You can get along with it, especially because there's so many bars in the area. Guess what? 10 PM max on the service. 10 PM max on the service. What is this? Are we or like, what is this? San Jose? Listen, you need to serve stuff in that neighborhood. People are out in that neighborhood. It doesn't even get cranking until then. Ridiculous. So anti-freaking business. This really ticks me the heck off. Speaking of business, do you want to maybe like read that piece of paper I give you? Yeah, yeah. Hey, family show stars. I didn't say anything. I heard you. I heard you start to drop an S bomb. I heard you. Yeah, don't get sidetracked. I want you people to know something. Today's program is brought to you by, and I've not got to say this in a long time. I'm pleased to say this, because I used to, back in the day, for those of you that listen to the,
+
+[11:22] uh, you know, years ago, modernist pantry was one of our, uh, main sponsors. And so I always got to say modernistpantry.com. And by the way, they are again. So today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks. visit blog.modernistpantry.com. By the way, they're also the people who we you're right with that, Dave. That's the monster trucks version. come back to the longer one later. Yeah. But you like the monster trucks version? Yeah, it's great. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Yeah. Oh my god. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Amazing Yonkers raceway. So listen, um, So that's sad. Enough of the anger with the thing, but doesn't that take you off like? Right? Yeah. You know, I know people. I know people, right, who have gone in, and for whatever reason, they've gotten investors, they've put all of their own freaking money, plus all of their own freaking time into trying to
+
+[12:21] try people, like, like, on the community board. They think that like restaurant tours, somehow these fat cats. No, it's like, especially here in New York, it's like a lot of like cooks who want to
+
+[12:30] do finally their own restaurant. They scrape together everything they have. They call in all their favors. They get an investor who basically at this point now owns them, right? Because they put this chunk of money in. They put all of their time and effort to try and open a place, and they think they can get it done with a beer and wine only license, and then their restaurant freaking
+
+[12:47] fails, because now maybe it isn't the restaurant wasn't meant to succeed anyway, but restaurants are so hard
+
+[12:53] anyway that any sort of crap you stack on top of it makes it that much harder.
+
+[12:57] Oh, by the way, that's scraping your hearing in the background is like bodies being scraped around on the floor of Roberta's outside. not providing these sound effects. Those are real actual sound effects of like garbage and like, you know, detritus being lugged around the outside of Roberta. sanitize the scene of the crime. The only, yeah, it's like, you know, we're going to come in here after the show with Luminol to see what's kind of what's going on. an app for that, right? There's a, that's got to be a fake app. That was a joke. No, I'm sure people have done it. People have done fake infrared camera. By the way, in the new book, I'm using an infrared camera to try and figure stuff out. I'm doing a lot of fun stuff for the new book. We talk about that later if we have time. By the way, if you have a cooking question, or a rant related question to how hard it is to start a restaurant and liquor licenses and community boards. Calling your questions to 718-4972128. That's 718-497-2128. And one thing happened. recently? Which that we didn't get that space? No, the liquor license non... I don't know how it used to be like years ago, it was easier. Like when we when we 1st did Booker and Dax, obviously I was using Samvar's liquor license, but I know we looked into it prior to
+
+[14:04] that and it wasn't that onerous at that point. Um, You know, the community boards have really tightened down a lot, and a lot depends on every block or area blocks has a block association, and if that block association is a really squeaky, squeaky wheel,
+
+[14:19] they'll they'll, you know, they'll hose it. Another tactic people will use on extant places with liquor licenses. If they have a very strong community board, is they'll just phone in complaint after complaint after complaint after complaint. And they try to do that at some, actually, for a while. They phone in complaint after complaint, and then they go in front of the SLA, which is the liquor board, and
+
+[14:40] they'll, and they'll try to get your liquor license revoked. In fact, one place we looked at was a place that it had its liquor license revoked. Now, bear in mind. So like places in this neighborhood because they're talking about the East Village again, it's basically perfect for like bars, especially like restaurant
+
+[14:55] bars. That's the kind of clientele that goes down there. That's what the businesses are. These places vacant for like three, 4 years. They, you know, because no one else wants to, there's no way to rent it. What are you gonna do? You know, what are you going to do? Open another juice shop? I don't know. juice shop. What are your thoughts on juice shops? No, too many. Too many saturated. I'm not going to grant any no juice shop licenses. too saturated. juice shop. I like juice shop. I mean they're fine. I think people should be able to open the businesses they want to open. That's all. that so bad? Never thought I'd be like the hyper pro business guy. But, you know, or the hyper anti-regulation guy. I'm all for people keeping their neighborhood nice. I'm not trying to say that these people don't have a right to try to, like, look out for their neighborhood. I'm just saying they are blunt force instruments mentally. They don't they're not thinking. Well, it's like if my sister was moving here and said, what neighborhood should I move in? into? What do you think of the East Village? I'd say, there's a lot of bars. You know? which is what it is. Right, which is what it is. So what are they gonna do? It's like closing the freaking barn door after the horses have already freaking left. Oh, groovy, smashing. Yay, capitalism. Is that Dave? Do you know, like, did you see, do you know, did you see Nancy Pelosi's town hall? Do you know a huge chunk of the millennial people, which I haven't, you know, have my issue. I love you millennials, not really. But they, like, the point is, is that, like, a huge chunk of them in quotes don't believe in capitalism. What does that even mean? I don't know. Do they tweet that to each other on their iPhones? Like, what the hell? Like, if you don't believe in capitalism, Nastasia. No, no, I'm an old fogy here, but shouldn't you like renounce it? Yeah. Like, how do you not believe in capitalism over your Twitter account? How does that work? You know what I mean? Ooh, wow. More bodies. All right. That was a juicy one. Yeah, it's like literally crazy here. Okay. Question in. I have a question on thermodynamics. and this is from Simon Stillwell in Charleston, South Carolina. You know, I've still not been to Charleston. How crazy is that? You've been to Charleston, right, size? No? No? So we should have some sort of reason to go down. Food and wine festival. Oh, yeah? Yeah, stoked. Yeah? Nice. I never been before. Nice. Well, I've never been. Nastasia and I are in the food and wine business. You want to come? Uh, you know, I'm sure I, I'm sure I, it's soon. Maybe your friends at Modernist Pantry can get you a ticket. Uh, why are they going? don't know. Now, you know, like Nastasi and I, 1st of all, are so freaking cheap. We're so cheap that, like, and literally, unless someone, like, halls are behinds to places we never go, right? At least I am. You're the same way, actually, right? You're pretty cheap. cheap. If I had money, I had to spend it. Okay, I have a question on thermodynamics, but 1st some background info. We're working with a pretty standard chocolate soufflé recipe. By the way, if anyone's on the chat group now, they might be helpful on this. Butter and sugar prep on the Ramekins, stored in a fridge until fired, when I go into an averagely crappy tabletop convection oven. I like averagely crappy. That's that's my new life's motto. your new band name. That's more like a life, more like a life strategy, averagely crappy. Uh, it's like, because you know why it's so awesome because the assumption is that everything is crap, right? So you start from a baseline of crap. So it's not like average goodness. It's average crappiness. It's a, it's like, uh, it's like I told you, my favorite thing about the German language can be encapsulated in
+
+[18:32] a, in a side by side translation I saw once where the English said works great. And the German said does not cause problems. And so it's like, it's like that kind of a... Well, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like, it's not even half full, half empty. It's like, it's you always measure in degrees of emptiness. You see what I'm saying? Like that, that's the thing. There is no there's no word for full. It's like, you know, how how empty is it? Which is a good way to look at it. I think. You know what I mean? Just, which is weird, because we're actually, we're actually optimistic people somewhat. Yeah, somewhat. Okay. Uh, my high pot, what? I was going to say, leave the nihilism to your millennial friends. Fake nihilism. Yeah, like fake hope. don't know. get me started on millennials, man. Someone needs to come on the show. You know what we need? We need a millennial to come on the show and explain this crap to us. What about Nastasia sister? Anyway. All right. My hypothesis is that the thermal mass of the ramekin is so high compared to the batter, and is such a poor conductor of heat, that the majority of the time is spent bringing the ramekin from the fridge temperature up to the cooking temperature. Instead, if you were to put the batter into a silicon mold, same size,
+
+[19:47] shape as the Ramekins, and freeze it into a puck. Uh, then uh, simply to fire it, simply put the puck in a room temp ramekin uh, that it would reduce the cooking time. Does this hold water or is there a better way? Some have said that it would just turn into a molten cake, that this is a crazy idea that wouldn't rise, et cetera. Thank you, Simon Stillwell from Charleston, South Carolina. Well, hm. I am, I think the room temperature ramekin probably would work fine, but if you're talking about like a fridge temperature ramekin, right? So you're talking about, let's call it 4 degrees Celsius, right? So you're looking at the rise from 4 degrees Celsius, up to a room temperature ramekin of like 23 degrees Celsius. Now, I don't know how long that's going to take. We should run you can run some thermal modeling on that. Um, but, It needs to, it's going to rise over the bake time up to like 100, roughly 100 degrees Celsius. And a little bit, a little bit over,
+
+[20:47] possibly, if you get some dehydration of the souffle around the edges and it's browning, which it is. So if the souffle edges are browning at all, then it's getting above 100, but let's just call it 100, which is the boiling point of water Celsius. So what you're saying is, is that you're worried about that 1st 20 degree or 22 degree rise in, or not even, probably 20 degree rise
+
+[21:08] in temperature, when you're looking from fridge temperature, at an overall 94 degree temperature rise. So I would say that in the baking time that it takes your, uh, souffle to go through, uh, I don't know how much of a jump you're going to get
+
+[21:28] on, um, on the cooking by having the ramekin being, um, room temperature. Maybe some, I don't know. Um, But it's an interesting question. I mean, it's something that like, you know, you could you could probably study with a thermocouple. You know, just take a, you know, if I wasn't working so hard on, like, reading 1000s of pages of incredibly boring meat science books and
+
+[21:55] texts. People would not believe how boring and contradictory meat science, documents, and books are. Like not just boring, contradictory. Uh, but the, uh, yeah, so if I had the time, you could like strap some
+
+[22:09] thermocouples to the inside of the ramekin, uh, and actually measure in the 2 cases kind of what's happening. Now, on the other side, would a frozen souffle
+
+[22:18] work, I don't know that a standard souffle recipe would work as a frozen situation because I've never tried
+
+[22:24] it. But I know there are people. Um, the cuisine solutions guys, uh, for instance, uh, developed uh, tubular souffles. I think Paula Perlis, maybe also developed some tubular souffles. So what they do is they literally, now they're hydrocaloid-based, but what they do is, is they're freezing, um, they're freezing souffle, not in, uh, in silicone molds, but actually in long logs and cylinders, freezing them solid, and then slicing them into
+
+[22:53] pucks, and dropping them into ramekins and cooking them off, and they're working fine, working great. Now, I, again, I, uh, you know, what needs to happen is everything needs to 1st melt and then rise before the outside sets too much. But so I know that it can work. I don't know that it would work with a classic souffle, um, recipe, but I do know that it can work to have a frozen souffle,
+
+[23:21] but, you know, I'll try to look into it more over the next week or so. I don't know if I'm going to have time or if I'll remember. I need to remember this kind of stuff with several days in advance to do some work and to call the people that I know that have worked on these systems. So, it is possible, but I don't know how much you're going to, for them, the win was, they got to basically have these incredibly dense stored logs of souffle that they could ship across the country, chop them into disks, and any monkey could then have a good souffle at
+
+[23:49] their, at their, you know, point of service. Um, you know, at their restaurant. And so that was a huge win for them. Um, but I don't know. I don't, my answer is, the answer is I don't know. So sorry, not very good, not a very good help today, right? Not a good health. Anyone on anyone in the chat group alive and well on souffle ramekins? No, they got nothing to say about this. No? Do you like souffles, Dave? I don't really have a strong opinion, Dave. You, why? I guess I haven't had that many soufflets. So when I was a kid, the souffle was pretty popular in the 70s and
+
+[24:26] 80s, so when you went to a high class, you went to a high class French restaurant, they would show up and they would ask you at the beginning of the freaking meal.
+
+[24:34] Now, this is the baller part of it. This is the baller service part of it. Will the sir be having the soufflé? Because like, you're at the beginning of the meal? They ask you at the beginning of the meal. The implication being that they have to work up to it. You know what I mean? That like they're going to do this preparation. They're going to get their freaking Mishigosh in order. They got to do everything. You know what I mean? They're gonna, like, massage it. They need X number of minutes to cook it, right? So they need like 15, something, 20 minutes to cook it, whatever. Uh, and then this is before people had figured out how to like par cook and then finish cook their soup, all this
+
+[25:06] like stuff that people can do. So the, um, So yeah, so like and they would ask you, and then invariably, this is the way people to upsell your desserts, invariably be like, hmm, do I want
+
+[25:17] this? Man, if they're going to work that hard, man, yeah, I want the souffle. So I would get the souffle. And then they would bring it. Remember, they would bring it to the table and they would stick the 2 spoons into it, bust that sucker open, and then pour the sauce in, which is a
+
+[25:31] ball. baller. I mean, like getting a nice, awesome souffle that is like really good where it's like still creamy but not goopy on the inside and like has that nice, fluffy thing. It's risen high and you can see the steam when they bust that sucker open. That is a baller dining moment. But I feel it's fallen by the wayside. It doesn't really fit into the structure of most, you know, kind of hip restaurants, you know? I don't know whether it's too state or whatever, but I haven't been asked that in years. I haven't been asked that. Have you seen that recently since? Oh, yeah. Well, that's old school French. you get it? Oh, you did? Was it good? Yeah. What was it? chocolate souffle with the? Passion fruit souffle? Yeah. Got to be chocolate. Well, no, I mean, look. Orange flavors, chocolate flavors, you know, with a contrasting sauce, depending on which way you're going. These are all good, but like passion fruit. I love passion fruit. But 1st of all, one of the things I don't like, and I've said this a 1000000 times about the way we in America, we think of
+
+[26:40] passion fruit as being a thing, and like the, basically all of the passiflora species all have radically, radically different flavors. They all share that like weird acidity. But in terms of like muskiness and like, you know, sometimes
+
+[26:56] passion fruit can have that weird, musky, overriding note. I don't want that in my souffle. I want that for different stuff, but I don't want that in my souffle. Neither do I want it in my cocktail people, even though I like those fruits. I like eating those fruits. Learn a new way to open a pomegranate the other day. So, you know what? I went into a YouTube hole. And, uh, where I was researching uh, things. I went to a YouTube hole. And then I realized that, like, you know, the old technique I had gotten for pomegranates was basically you slice that sucker in half and then you beat on the, you break it a little
+
+[27:26] bit and then you beat it with the back of a spoon and you get the stuff out of it. But I saw these guys, like these pomegranate ninjas. And they take it. Did you see that terrible 2nd Hannibal Lecter movie where Ray
+
+[27:39] Liota gets his head chopped off? where they, where, what's his name? Hannibal, what's the famous actor? Anthony Hopkins. He cuts the top of Rayliota's head off and then removes it and then serves Raylio to his own brain. Remember, you didn't see this? Dave, you see this? Terrible movie. As much as I like both Ray Liota and Anthony Hopkins, terrible movie and a gross scene. like overridingly gross for no reason. Anyway, you do that to a pomegranate. So you take the pomegranate, and it's got the little the little tufty thing on top. You put the knife to it, and you cut around, and you lift the top off, like
+
+[28:11] you were lifting the top of Rayliota's skull. And you have like those things there. And then here's the cool part, Stas. Here's the part that you're gonna like. Then you can, you know how there's those septa of those membrane septa that go
+
+[28:22] around. You can see them, right? Like the five, typically, I think 5 going down. And then you take your pairing knife and you pair along where those septar down, almost like the lions in a basketball, just along, not too deep, just the skin. And then you can go, and you break all of the sections
+
+[28:39] apart, and all of them are just there. They're just there. And I saw this guy do it, not one drop of juice on his table. Not one drop of juice. And I was like, sir, thank you. I went into another. I was looking up, uh, Japanese, uh, uh, shrimp shrimp
+
+[29:00] techniques and then devaning techniques, and I've learned that my entire life, my devaning technique has been garbage. Garbage. Well, yeah, so Nastasia is making the cut down the back move, right? To devein to devein the shrimp. Now, my peeling game is okay, because it's basically just a brute force technique. I don't think there's any sort of like, there's no sort of like God's way
+
+[29:19] to, uh, take the shell off of a shrimp. Although, if you take, I mean, the old trick of taking a paring knife, holding it upside down and
+
+[29:27] zip, unzipping the shrimp from the back, also scores the back so you can get to the vein very easily and rip the shell off. But then you have that line down the back of the shrimp, which I don't really think looks that good. think it's fine. See, but you don't really care. I'm saying if you were going to go to a, if you were going to spend like 8 boat tons of money on like a giant trip, don't you want it to look nice or you want to have a raggedy
+
+[29:46] bath? You don't like when it butterflies out? Not particularly. I mean, like, I guess I can live with it if it looks like it's on purpose. Anyway, so this guy, he's like, here's what you, and I can't believe I didn't know this. No one I'm talking about is, hey, crap on all of my teachers and every cook I've ever looked at for not doing this. The guy just takes a skewer, right? He bends the shrimp. close to the tail. Bends the shrimp. So, shoves a skewer, like, basically, if the shrimp had a backbone, like right underneath its backbone,
+
+[30:13] right? And then just lift the skewer up and the vein comes right out with the skewer, boom, and the shrimp. you still cut through. No, no, no, no. Just one tiny skewer mark at one location in the
+
+[30:25] shrimp, and you're basically, like, it's like, how to explain this? It's like, imagine if you were to bend me over and shove a
+
+[30:34] skewer. spine. Right, what? Shove a skewer onto my spine, as Arnold would say, which is what he said. whose spine do you say is going to rip out what movie was that? Probably like total recall. No, Running Man, I think. Okay, I think you said that about Trump, too. So you shove the, you shove the... Oh my god. So Dax accidentally said these words, Donald Schwarzenegger. Now I have that mashup in my head now. Anyway, so you shove the skewer under my spine, and then you lift it out. So my body stays there, but imagine the spine just, like, comes out. spine comes out on the on the skewer. on the skewer. And all you have is that tiny hole that my spine has come out. Why does it latch onto the skewer? Because where else is it gonna do? It's stronger than the tissue. And so it just comes out because when you do the cut down the back method on the trip. Like invariably, you cut the vein. So you get part of the vein out, but then you, even if the vein, a lot of shrimp come clean now, so there's not a lot in the vein, but the vein is there anyway. it's kind of unpleasant. I got shrimp at a place in Brooklyn, like a, like a barbecue place on the
+
+[31:37] water, and it had all the veins in it, all the poop shoots. And I went back and I was like, can you get, you know, this is kind of gross. The guy was like, yeah, we're not that kind of place that takes them out. And I was like, But are you that kind of place that charges me money? Here's the thing. Like, they should just invest the extra money then in the pre-cleaned
+
+[31:57] IQ, uh, you know, individually quick frozen IQF stuff. Anyway, so should we should we take a break and come back with some more cooking issues? let's do that. All right.
+
+[32:12] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chef steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[32:49] gets you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[32:54] Browse, chest steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[33:09] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. All right, and we are back. So time to do a little more business, right? Right, Dave? You got it. I'm gonna do some business, some honors, pantry business. We're doing more? Grease those palms. Yeah, man. Well, 1st of all, we like to monitor this pantry people. Yeah. But I'm going to read this one in normal voice. I'm not going to do, because I haven't actually read it in advance, so I don't know whether I can maintain full Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, monster truck voice for the
+
+[33:42] entire thing. I mean, I know I can do it, but like I have, I mean, like, don't challenge me, people, but I know I can. But I just don't know whether I, whether it merits like that style of voice or whether it wants a more mellow voice, because I have no idea what I'm about to read. Not that I, not that I don't support entirely what I'm about to read. Just have no idea what it is. Okay. Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry families share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[34:15] Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere
+
+[34:25] else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry, the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchenalchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary
+
+[34:52] ingredients and tools. Hey, Dave, can you believe I read that whole damn thing, no flubs? That was amazing. What up? I should do that for a living, man. Come on people. I heard the Sunday, Sunday, Sunday creep in there just a little bit. can't help it. It's like, you know, when you grow up and you hear that commercial over and over
+
+[35:06] again, It's a part of me. Do you know that I was never taken as a child, it's not even going to give my poor little, you know, I was never taken to a monster truck rally as a child.
+
+[35:16] I had to wait till I went to college to go to a monster truck rally. I wanted to mention that modernist pantry now carries our screens for internationals, especially Canadians,
+
+[35:25] and uh, our, uh, callers.
+
+[35:31] Is that your new impolite term for people? Internationals. You internationals. And our seers all adapters for when you overtighten. And the cocktail cube they have now. Yep. So there you go. Almost a full service dealer. By the way, spins all people. We're still waiting to get back in touch with China's still not back online, people. Our factories in China are not back online until next week, at which point we will reconvene with them. take their vacation very seriously. At which point we will get back together with those guys and figure out exactly what the current estimates are on ship
+
+[36:10] dates, and we'll get back to you guys. But looking pretty good, right? Not looking bad, which is the new looking good. It's a German. Yeah, yeah. Not looking bad. Looks not bad. Okay. Dear Dave, Nastasia. Oh, this is old school. Oh, still wish like Jack and Dave. So still wishing Jack, love, wishing you, Dave, love, but also wishing Jackie Molecules, love. And he said, you know, I miss Jackie molecules. You know what, Dave? He said he was going to come visit us. You know what he hasn't done? Come visit. He hasn't come visit, huh? He's full of lies. Like Peter Kim. He's chilling in Washington, DC. Like Peter Kim. Peter Kim, known liar. Peter Kim, the guy who runs a museum of food and drink. not a known liar. alternative facts. Known liar. Uh, he meant it alternative effect. First of all, crazy. No one liar. What? How? When was the last time he told the truth about anything? I love the men. I'm just kidding. He's not in, he's not, you guys don't know the lies he tells, so he's not a known liar. Anyway, I'm a huge fan of the show and regularly apply things discussed here in my cooking. Many thanks. Dave, I also want to give a shout out to Liquid Intelligence, looking forward to your next book. I'm not looking forward to this writing process. I tell you what. We were at a ramen shop. And you were in with all these ramen masters. And Peter said, I make ramen at home sometimes. And you said, you're an known liar. He's like, wow. He is so mean. Yeah, because he doesn't make ramen at home. Unless by ramen, you mean, like, you know, cup of noodles or whatever. The man, come on, please. Love Peter. Peter's a good cook. Yeah. Um, okay. My question is about chicken and other meats in the most people find them disgusting if undercooked categories such as pork. My wife is of Haitian descent and has a strong food tradition around proper preparation of these meats. A key element of the preparation is an extensive process of washing the
+
+[38:15] meat, uh, before cooking, to remove an unpleasant in quotes, make you gag flavor. The washing process consists of the following steps. Thoroughly wash all exposed surfaces of the meat under the faucet. Optionally pour a kettle of boiling water over the chicken. Three, scrub the surface extensively with lime or vinegar and rinse under the faucet. Repeat this step for a minimum of 3 acid
+
+[38:37] wash rinch cycles. Now I have the jeans in my head. I should wash jeans. They're not coming back. Please tell me they're not coming back. I see them on people here. Really? I don't like acid wash sheets. No. The color of my jeans today is it's just faded. It's not acid wash. whatever. Do you believe in putting lemon juice in your hair? No. I thought all people in California put lemon juice in there? I tried it when I was little. Yeah? Did it work? Uh, okay. Uh, 3 uh, wash rid cycles. Marinate the meat in an acidic marinade. What about idiots who say marinade? Weirdos. Poor guy, now, but hanging up is cape to dry. All right, I know, before I get to the question, I'm sorry. Listen. So yesterday, I'm looking up brioche recipes because I'm about to go on a brioche kick at home. It not for the show or anything. I'm going on a brioche cake. don't like brioche, Nastasia? It's fine. Why are you doing this? I can't talk about it. Listen, I can't talk about it. But listen, so like, so Dax looks at the screen and goes, Briachi. And I was like, yeah, Dex. Freaking Briachi. It's classic, right? Briachi. Wait, why can't you talk about it? Because it's a freaking secret when I get. Are you coming up with a new technique? Maybe? Maybe I'm coming up with a new technique? Are you ashamed? I'm not I'm not ashamed. If it works, I'm so jacked about it, that I want to wait until... They'll tell everyone and then someone else will take... I want to wait until the new bar opens, and then you will see. Briache. Sounds like, like, like, uh, like that's something that Carlo would make. Carlo Briachi, right? I think I went to school with that guy Yeah, Carlo Briachi. Yeah. So repeat this step for a minimum of 3 acid watch. Remember, we're talking about Haitian meat washing people. Chicken, and I guess also pork. Marinate the meat in an acidic marinade for at least overnight. Parsley is also a key element of the marinade to remove the unpleasant flavor. Other ingredients typically include green pepper, onion, garlic, thyme, bouillon cube, magi, and maybe a scotch bonnet pepper. Well, that's going to ride over the top of every freaking thing. You rub a scotch bonnet pepper into that and it's good night. I mean, I like scotch bonnet, but that stuff is strong. Uh, you know, you ever wipe one of those things into your eye by mistake? Really? I would think you would. You're the kind of person, but you don't like working with it that much. So you don't work with them that often. Do you work with chili peppers a lot at all? No. no? However, from what I can tell, it is the lime and partially that is supposed to be removing the
+
+[41:10] off flavor, while the other ingredients are primarily for flavor edition. The whole washing process takes roughly 15 to 20 minutes to complete properly before the marinade step. My problem is I do not have any idea what's going on here. In jest, I call the off flavor gamma rays because it's a total mystery to me. I can't identify it or tell if it is present. I don't know if the wash is effective in removing it. And if so, I don't know when I've washed efficiently to have removed the last of the gamma rays. I have frequently followed the wash steps and been told that the off-flavor is still there. I initially thought that it was just a placebo effect, and she was being skeptical that I actually washed a chicken because I can be admittedly stubborn, especially in the kitchen. Can't we all be, my friend? However, even when she prepares the chicken herself, sometimes she tastes it and determines that the flavor is still
+
+[41:55] present. Now for some additional confusion. We frequently eat chicken at restaurants, Chinese, Thai, Italian, Spanish, Mexican,
+
+[42:01] etcetera, and she will enjoy the chicken and detect no off flavor with the assumption that they too are washing the chicken. They are not. They are definitely not. They are definitely not washing the chicken. They may marinate the chicken, but I've never seen anyone in a restaurant go through this rigmarole
+
+[42:18] with the multiple steps and the boiling and all this other stuff. Have you? No. Never. Never. Um, brining, marinating. Yes. Uh, this incredible, like all washing step. No. I don't believe any of these restaurants are using the washing process, but don't know for sure. I pretty much can tell you for sure they are not. This leaves me in a difficult spot. The off-flavor seems to be a real thing, but I don't know what I'm looking for. And it seems to be more more than a preference for a specific marinade flavor, since it crosses cuisines. Also, the wash process is really time consuming and sometimes ineffective, not to mention that results in all chicken tasting Haitian style. While this is delicious, Haitian styled. Well, this is delicious, I also want to be able to make other styles, and the restaurants are somehow getting it right. Do they have special chicken? I'm swinging in the dark here and need some knowledge. Have you ever run into anything like this? What's the deal? Thanks, Todd. Okay, well, um, well, Todd, I don't know specifically what this
+
+[43:15] off-flavor is, but I did some research on the internets. And there is a one board I looked at where like a bunch
+
+[43:24] of, uh, uh, you know, people, Caribbean people were like, uh, if I, like, would literally say things like, I saw this guy cooking his
+
+[43:32] chicken and he didn't do the proper washing step like I was taught by my parents, and so I just wouldn't eat it. I wouldn't eat it at all. There's a very, very strong kind of sanitary bias, right? So there might be a flavor bias, right? There might actually be something flavor wise going on here, but there is definitely an extreme sanitary bias. And if you ever want to, like, know that those biases are real, right, then just go take a look, go try to watch a YouTube video of someone butchering fish where they discover tapeworms and other parasites on the inside of a
+
+[44:07] fish and then go try to tuck into a fish filet. It's hard because you have an extreme sanitary bias about this. So, like, I'm wondering whether the times that your wife has prepared the chicken and it still had the
+
+[44:19] off flavor, whether or not that chicken was maybe on the edge or not. Now, another thing I noticed by looking at a lot of the boards is that along with the washing that you prescribe. And by the way, the boiling water, a lot of these things are things that are meant to do several things. The acid is going to neutralize some of the off aromas that develop on the surface of meats. Um, the pH may have some sort of uh, um, anti-microbial effect. It's unclear to me, whether it would over such a short period of time and you're going to marinate it in an acidic environment anyway. So I don't know how important it is there. But there's an extreme dislike of sliminess. And so meats like chicken, even when they're not, even when they're fresh, right, can have kind of a sliminess to them. And there seems to be a very intense dislike for that sliminess. And also, by the way, if you look at fat. So a lot of the people, like, are very careful in getting rid of any fat on the external part of chicken
+
+[45:22] thighs, and what's returned termed as the kind of heel end or the fatty looking end of the drumstick.
+
+[45:28] So it's possible that, um, some of the
+
+[45:32] off-flavor is actually chicken fat flavor, perhaps, uh, maybe on the edge or edge or over, overdone or, you know, over, you know, kind of gone chicken fat
+
+[45:42] flavor or a dislike of that chicken fat flavor in its entirety, because there was a huge amount of, like, uh, verbiage spent on the websites about getting rid of fat.
+
+[45:51] The other thing is that the acidity will definitely help wash off the kind of natural, any kind of
+
+[46:00] natural assignment. Now, the chickens, like I say, have a natural kind of feeling to them, but
+
+[46:05] also as bacteria multiply over time. They create their own kind of mucus and slime, which is disgusting and terrible.
+
+[46:12] So, and especially if chickens have been packaged in a bunch of goops. So a lot of chickens are, I buy, I tend to buy air cooled chickens. Um, they tend to not be as goopy, slimy, but if you get the normal ones that are chilled in big ice buckets and packed together, they're giving up
+
+[46:28] fluid over time that's being leached out of the meat. That fluid has proteins in it. So they have a viscosity that's kind of gross and they look gross. And plus in confinement, there is bacteria, even not spoilers bacteria, but bacteria that can grow, it can make kind of off aromans. Things are called, even in vacuum packs are called, in quotes, it's a gross term, confinement aroma that tends to kind of go away. And so scrubbing that with lime, uh, would
+
+[46:57] probably help alleviate some of the aromas that are present. you know, neutralize them. And then B, um, might have some bacteria static and also like just help to like wash the thing off. The boiling water over it is not going to probably overcook it because it's there for a short amount of time, but it will kill the surface
+
+[47:15] bacteria. And it, in fact, has been in many cultures, including ancient Roman, was a standard cook step and something like a bird. Um, to, um, as an initial, as an initial cook before finish roast or whatever else. So yeah, so there might be an effect there. Now, I am currently reevaluating my, um, my knowledge and ideas of uh, what happens to meat during marination and during salting. So I can't really say what the specific effects are over short periods of
+
+[47:50] time. I doubt the effects are very great over short periods of time. But I am, like I say, reassessing, I'm reassessing my my views on the subject. So a lot of people don't like, and I might have talked about this. A lot of people think that marination is useless because it doesn't penetrate very far into the meat. But, in fact, a lot of the aromas that are there in cooking, which are very important
+
+[48:13] to, whether you enjoy the meat, are really only present at the surface. And the composition of marinade,
+
+[48:20] specifically its pH level, but also other precursors that are in the marinade, can very much affect the volatiles that you get when you're cooking them at higher temperatures.
+
+[48:28] So marinate, even if they are only at the surface, can do a lot of, can change a lot. And currently trying to reassess my own view on this. This is what I said is kind of, you know, maybe a month or 2 ago that I think the only way to really get better is to kind of reassess all of your core
+
+[48:44] ideas from the beginning. Another thing that I'm reassessing is trying to figure out how actually tenderization works. So, you know, um, Because when you think about, uh, when you think about meat, uh, you know, it's always, you know, said, oh, collagen, it's collagen that causes
+
+[49:03] meat, uh, to be tough and it's rendering collagen during long cooking, into gelatin that causes it to be, um, you know, tender again. But I've just recently started to investigate kind of all of the effects of
+
+[49:15] what what tenderizing really means. Turns out. I mean, what time is it, Dave, anyway? So I can't get into it now. But, but, you know, maybe if someone asked me about it, we can get into, uh, you know,
+
+[49:28] intramuscular connective tissue and, um, specifically the parameceum, which is a, uh, um, it's not called
+
+[49:36] parameceum, man, it just went out my head. Muscle fibers are grouped into bundles and it's the collagen that surrounds those bundles that tend to buy most of the
+
+[49:47] research. That's what determines the texture of the meat. And so then the question is, is that can that part be specifically
+
+[49:54] change or the eating properties of it be changed via marinade via salt
+
+[49:59] treatment? And I'll leave you this on the way out. So, uh, is the fact that I have very specific ideas about when to salt
+
+[50:09] meat, and when not to salt meat based on the texture of it, is it radically dependent on the amount of connective tissue and the type of
+
+[50:15] connected tissue present in the meat beforehand. Answer. Maybe, if you want to know more, ask me questions, cooking issues.
+
+[50:29] Thanks for listening to Heritage radio network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious
+
+[51:02] place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:27] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:41] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick,
+
+[0:51] Brooklyn. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks.
+
+[1:01] Visit blog.motonouspantry.com, and call all of your cooking related questions into 718-497-2128, that
+
+[1:09] 718-497-2128, joined, as usual, in the studio, Barnastasia, of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Yeah, doing good. And we got my man Dave in the booth. What going on? Also good. That was a stirring read of that ad. I love that. Yeah, well, you know, if you're gonna do, if you're gonna, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it as part of the, you know, it's, it takes me at least, uh, 500 milliseconds to gear into that voice. You know what I mean? Besides, you ever see me like, when I come in, I'm hacking, like, hacking up blood getting off the bike and like, and then as soon as it hits, we do
+
+[1:41] it. That's what it's all about people. It's not about it's about making yourself feel what you need to feel. Yeah, I mean, that was like Henry V for me out here. Oh, Shackus bar. Okay. So, uh, what do you anything good? Happy Valentine's Day, people. Yeah, does anyone have any anyone out there in Heritage Radioland have any last minute Valentine's Day issues they need to address, call them
+
+[2:10] into 718-497-2128. Well, I mean, I wouldn't take, I wouldn't take relationship advice from either of us. I don't know, maybe Dave could give. We have a whole show based on relationship advice. What's that show, Dave? issues. No, no. What? Yeah, love bites, yeah. Listen, in the, in the, in the lead up to this, uh, where, you know, you guys are pimping out uh, heritage radio. It's like if you want to get behind the scenes in the restaurant world, people, you don't want to go behind the scenes in the restaurant world. That's the last place on earth you want to be. Do you think does anybody think for a second, right? I mean, like, everyone likes those shows where, like, you know, people go behind the scenes and yell at people and all kinds of things are going
+
+[2:49] wrong. But if, like, you felt like you were behind the scenes in the restaurant world. How many people do you think would actually try to get into the business and stuff? Oh, yeah. Behind the scenes and your paycheck is like nothing. That's behind behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, the behind the scenes everyone wants to get into is like, yeah, it's like, oh, oh, we're cooking good food, we're yelling at each other. We have camaraderie. you know what I mean? Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah, right. You're changing at least your diner's next 15 minutes. But, like, they, but they, yeah, like what they don't see is like, I didn't get the good shift because the managers of Jack, what? You know what I mean? Or, like, you know, the manager is sleeping with that other person, and they got the good shift, and I didn't, and look at my paycheck. You know what I mean? That's the side of the restaurant. behind the scenes. That's the behind the behind the scenes. That's like what's really going on behind the scenes. You know what I mean? Hey, it's good, man. It's all good. Or like, you know what, you know what? Like, the hardest thing. And like, I've never had to deal with it. So, yeah, that's not true. I mean, a long, long time ago, but like, you know, the idea of just not knowing how much you're
+
+[4:02] gonna make. That's the weird thing, not for cooks, but like for front of house people, just have no idea what you're
+
+[4:07] gonna, you know kind of what you're going to make after you average it out. But like, not a busy, not a busy night. You're cut, go home. You know what I mean? It's a weird business. You got a call about crab legs. Ooh, crab legs, you're on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Brandon Bird calling in. Doing well, doing well. Hope you are. I got a nice couple of clusters of king crab legs. Uh, obviously pre-cooked, you know, frozen at sea. Uh, and I was wondering if you had a preferred method of reheating those beyond the
+
+[4:41] usual uh, steaming or if that's the tried and true method for a reason. Um, well, okay, 1st of all, like, like, uh, so what kind of prep, what kind of prep are you doing? Most of the time when I get those things, I do, I do cold prep with them, except for like when I'm actually cooking
+
+[4:56] them, it's the last time I cooked, because we used to do a thing where we would buy whole King Crab live, which is intensely awesome. It's so good. You should do it someday. It's expensive. But, uh, but we steamed the, we steamed it and then we, we chilled it. I served it chilled. I would say, look, they're already cooked at a very high temperature, right? Because that's how they do it. And in fact, I happen to, after, you know, many years of playing with it, enjoy
+
+[5:25] shellfish, if it's going to be cooked. I don't want it overcooked, but I want it cooked at a fairly high temperature. Um, So I would say steaming is good because it's relatively rapid. I don't think you're going to do anything to the meat that hasn't already been done to the
+
+[5:40] meat and you're not going to leach anything in or out because it's relatively fast and you have relatively small contact between the cooking medium and the, um,
+
+[5:50] and the, and the environment. I mean, between the cooking medium and the thing you're cooking. Uh, so, you know, plus like those long skinny things in a pile of steam gets between them really nice. you wouldn't want to go boil them. That would be insane. You'd be an insane person if you did that, to throw all that money into a pot and leach all the flavor out of it. You'd be crazy. That'd be a crazy person's thing to do. You know what I mean? Yeah. What are you gonna do with it? Um, well, I'm gonna bust out kitchen cheers and kind of uh, pre-slice open the shells just to make them less finicky at the table. Right. Um, and then just, you know, steam them and do them with drawn butter. Yeah, okay. What kind of, what kind of equipment do you have available to you? I've got a circulator. Uh, pressure cooker, uh, steam baskets, uh, I don't
+
+[6:40] know. What do you have have special thought? Uh, well, saying like, you know, if you own something like a CVA. See, here's the thing, right? So when you're cooking, when you're cooking shellfish, you want to cook time to be relatively low, right? That's, uh, well, you know, steaming is good. Like long cooking times are not beneficial for shellfish. There's a number of reasons for this. Some of them, I think, are enzymatic. So for instance, we used to do this demo where we would cook shrimp at a very, very low temperature for a long
+
+[7:07] time and it would turn to mush, right? Like paste, disgusting. Now, some of that's probably enzymatic, but some of it, um, might also be that the stuff just gets mushy as it's cooked down because of the
+
+[7:20] way, um, the connective tissue is breaking down over time, just getting mushy, right? So, like, it could be that you what you want. I mean, that could be. my feeling that what you want is relatively fast, um, cooking times on it. That said, I think I've heard other people say that once it's cooked to a high temperature, that they can do a hot hold on it for
+
+[7:42] a relatively long period of time at relatively low temperatures without having degradation. So like what I would test, like what you could do if you had like a long, long, long time, right, is throw them in
+
+[7:53] a bag, no extra water, you know what I mean? And then, um, just throw them into a circulator bath, uh, at, you know,
+
+[8:01] at, like, at, like, you know, 60, which is 140 or somewhere around there and just give it enough time to heat. I have no idea how long it would take to heat up because you have the air gap, you got to heat up, and then you got to heat, um,
+
+[8:14] that's heating through the shell is not a big problem, but then you got to heat the meat. But what I don't know is if hot holding the meat
+
+[8:21] would, um, if it would degrade it, right, over the amount of time it would take for you to heat it up versus steaming
+
+[8:28] it. You're going to steam it for what, like 5 minutes. You know what I mean? Something like this? Who knows? Yeah. So, like, I think that Steven's probably going to do less damage. If you had access to, let's say, a combi oven, right? Then I would throw it in, and I would do 100% humidity at some kind of middle range temperature to see
+
+[8:46] kind of what's going on, and I would keep it probably under, I would try to keep everything under about 10, 15 minutes, which is what I normally shoot for when I'm cooking, uh, like
+
+[8:56] a, like a lobster, when I'm cooking a lobster, for instance, I want to keep my cook times under about 15 minutes for texture reasons, no matter what temperature I'm cooking
+
+[9:03] to. But again, I don't know whether that is only important during primary cook time or whether it's important during primary or secondary. Another thing is like, when you listen to people talking about hot holding shellfish, most of the time people are hot holding shellfish, they're not hot holding, at
+
+[9:20] least, I shouldn't say this, when people have asked me about it, they're not hot holding whole pieces of shellfish for people, like
+
+[9:27] tails or legs for a king crab. And so I think your ability to hot hold something in a sauce is a lot different because your
+
+[9:36] textural expectations are very different for something that's in a sauce versus something that
+
+[9:41] is like a whole muscle or a leg or something like that. makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I have had some luck for the past where I took the meat out, put it in a bag with some
+
+[9:51] butter and just let it come up to temperature in like 10 minutes. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. But you want to serve it in the shell, right? fussy with a whole bunch of legs to go through all that work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, on the other hand, is this like the 1st course in a Valentine's Day meal? Uh, no, we're just going to be surf and turf. Um, with uh, some sous vide tenderloin, not my favorite uh, cut, but it's my wife's favorite. all that. you know, it's all about, it's all about who you're cooking for, not, you know, not yourself. Uh, but the, um, Here's what, here's another thing I would say. Like, part of the problem with king crab legs, right, or anything like this is that, uh, a lot of the, um, a lot of the kind of presentation style, awesome, is the big old leg, and some people really enjoy rip it me, for instance, uh, really
+
+[10:45] enjoy uh, ripping the meat out of the shell, right? So like, oh, you know, like if someone were to take the meat out of a lobster for anything other than a lobster roll, I would be kind of pissed because I enjoy shredding those things up into tiny pieces and having shell bits stick on my,
+
+[11:01] uh, you know, the person next to me's face. Stas, you've eaten lobster with me before, haven't you? No. But you wouldn't want to. You'd not want to, like little... I once hit her with a piece of inside of a what was it? What kind was that? Like, it was like a grouse or a woodcock. And you got hit in the face with a piece of like stinky, like, aged inside. And you were like, hm, yeah, not terrible. Do you like eating out of the shell or not out of the shell stuff? Anyway, so my point being that, um, I don't know about your wife, but some people would love if someone took the meat out of the shell for
+
+[11:35] them. But here's the other problem. You're spending all the money on the king crab leg, if it's out of the shell, it's like, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, gone. You know what I mean? It's gone. All that money gone down the throat, especially if I'm eating it. I don't know. Maybe your wife savors things and it doesn't matter. But, you know, for me, like it's always a play between this and that. But if it's, if it is part of a larger course, you also have to think about the time it takes someone to extract the meat, they could be doing other
+
+[12:00] things, like eating their steak. So, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's like, so I remember once we, uh, I served a 1st course of crabs, like, I
+
+[12:10] think I forget, it was Dungeoness or something like this. And everyone spent their entire time breaking open the, the, all the crab parts. And then, you know, nobody wanted to eat by the time uh, they got to their main course. I mean, that's how you have like a whole meal of crabs is because it takes so freaking long to get the meat out of the crab that you get full just with
+
+[12:30] time. You just get, you know, you just get sick of it. time to go to bed before you get full. I mean, have you ever been full of crab meat? Um, Yeah, once upon a time, it did take quite a while. Yeah, I have a follow-up question that refers to that, but go on. All right. I'm saying, like, if you go to like a Maryland style crab house, especially nowadays, when the crabs are so tiny and all you can eat crabs, it's not all you can eat crabs, it's when do you go to
+
+[12:54] bed? When are they shutting the kitchen down? I mean, like, you know what I mean? Like, you can't possibly, do you like eating crabs and stuff? Really? Well, this is my question. Where in New York, can you get all you can eat crabs? Because I'm at a loss, I can't find it. Um, there used to be a place. wasn't all you could. Hey, look, all you can eat also depends on how much, you know, your credit card can withstand because you can just hand them your credit card and be like, keep bringing it until I'm done. No, no, not like that. I mean, like you pay a flat whatever of 30, 40 bucks and you get all the crabs that you get. There used to be a place. I don't go out anymore that, but there used to be a place over in, um, in like Brooklyn on the water somewhere that did it, but I'm talking
+
+[13:31] like... I don't know, it was like 15 years ago. Yeah, I don't know what, and it's out of it, did it get swamped by the hurricane years ago? No, it's there still, but they don't do an all you can eat. Yeah, no, that wasn't a place I was thinking of, but anyway, I don't know. I don't know. If anyone finds one in New York, let's all... We'll go eat it. We eat it all. What's your follow-up question, Dave? That was it. Oh, yeah, I don't know. So, uh, so one thing you could do is just do what you did before, but then you don't have the presentation of
+
+[13:57] the uh, of the shell. And if you want to get really freaking fussy about it, you cut the legs all the way
+
+[14:03] in half down, reserve the shell, heat the meat, and replace it pre-buttered onto the freaking leg. Valentine's Day for you, baby. That's baller. That's baller, paint in the butt, though. What else you got? That's it? All right. Well, have a have a happy Valentine's Day. Thanks, same to you. All right. All right. So we had a question in from Matt. And the 1st thing, my phone has decided to go into tiny type. That's being a good band name, tiny type. There's another caller if you want to do that. All right, call, take call, you're on the air. Hey, it's Matt calling from Mystic. I'm not the map that wrote in. All right. How goes it? How's Mystic? How much snow you got? The profit whip and the gourmet whip and the EC canister. Okay. Is there any substantial difference between the canisters and the heads look like the half a court one will fit on the one court one as well, right? Yeah, okay. I don't remember which, I don't remember which line is which, but EC has at least 3 different models of unit.
+
+[15:16] And I'm not talking like the ones that are thermally insulated versus not. I talking about, like, lines, like proffy versus the other one. They had an even lower grade one years ago that had plastic heads on it that were for a consumer only. Um, They all are completely interchangeable. So you can stick the head of any unit that EC has ever made
+
+[15:37] for a whipper. You know, obviously the, um, the, uh, the seltzer siphons are not
+
+[15:44] interchangeable. with the whippers, but any model they've made, and I've tested models up to about 25 years
+
+[15:55] old, are completely 100% interchangeable. There are differences between the heads. Some of which, especially on the newer ones, and I forget when they introduce this, but it's probably something in the area of, you know, 15 years ago or something. They have extra safety features in the newer heads. If you look at the threads in the head of one of the any recent one that you're likely to get, you'll notice that they're what's called interrupted threads. They have a line milled out of them, and that's an escape vent such that if you need to open it under pressure, which is actually very difficult to
+
+[16:35] do. Uh, you, you know, it'll vent down that line uh, before the top disengages. So you're never going to get the top blowing off of the bottom as you unscrew it. The, uh, they've changed the nature, the different series have different gaskets on the inside,
+
+[16:51] uh, which by the way, the gaskets are also, to the best of my knowledge, 100% interchangeable. So you can take the gasket from one and put it into another. The actual, I think also the screw attachments, I think, are 100% interchangeable, the exception being the old plastic home
+
+[17:09] ones, don't have a screw in, whipper tip. They have a push in whipper tip, so that's not interchangeable, but, um, all the other aspects of it, I think, are interchangeable. The actual valve parts on the bottom are not. I think those are all different from unit to unit. Um, but everything else pretty much is the threads on the CO2 uh, things are completely interchangeable. Um, I've never had one that's not. Um, is that true? I think that's true. I think that's true. Yeah, I think they're 100% interchangeable. You know, like, because it would be hard for them to make it not, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, cool. I have the I have the half liter one and I've been like looking at the gallering eBay to find
+
+[17:54] uh one liter one and I just wanted to make sure that uh like from a safety standpoint or anything like that. there wouldn't be a problem. No, those Austrians, man. They're like, they, they're so hyped on safety, which is, which is why, like, um, they provided for me when I was writing, uh, liquid intelligence, they provided for me, uh, a series of, um, pressures in, at, in different liquids, at
+
+[18:17] different, in different bottles, at, you know, with different numbers of chargers. And they literally would not provide me for data that they knew because I spoke to their engineers. They dated, they knew it was safe on their unit, but they wouldn't put it in in case you used a unit that was manufactured by somebody else that didn't have the safety features that theirs did, that might blow up. So that, you know, you literally cannot put into
+
+[18:44] an easy, uh, enough of a pressure that it will, um, that it will
+
+[18:51] explode because it will back vent before, this is what they tell me. It'll back vent through the, um, through the CO2 entry point or through the
+
+[19:00] N2O entry point, rather, before it explodes. The 2nd mode of failure in an AC bottle is that the bottom that's dimpled in,
+
+[19:10] right? That, you know, looks like a champagne bottle on the bottom, that dimple will invert to release the pressure. That's the secondary, like if all hell breaks loose and you created a special lid that screwed it and sealed it tight,
+
+[19:23] right? Then the bottom would invert before it explodes. And then they take every once in a while, I forget how many, like, 1000 they make. They take and they screw it into a unit and literally explode it. Um, they do it 2 ways. They do it hydrostatically, which is not very violent, right? Because whenever, you know, hydro, see, when you're, when you're, when you fill something with water and then you pump water in it to increase the pressure to explode it, do a hydrostatic test, which is how they test gas
+
+[19:50] tanks. Literally, as soon as the thing ruptures, because liquid's incompressible, the pressure goes to
+
+[19:57] 0 because the, you know, the difference in volume between water under a 1000
+
+[20:02] PSI and water under 0 PSI is almost nothing. The volume difference is almost nothing. So, um, so yeah, so they do hydrostatic, but they also blow them up with air pressure and make sure that, I mean, it probably
+
+[20:16] sucks. You know what I mean? From a noise standpoint, but I've seen their rupture tests and they don't, they're not like pieces of shrapnel everywhere. They have a very nice failure mode, like opens up along the side and just, you know, doesn't doesn't shatter, just opens up. So I would say you are 100% safe. Plus they're completely interchangeable. Alright, cool. How much snow you got up there? I didn't get to go to Connecticut recently. was the snow nice? Uh, it was okay. It sort of turned crappy because it rained on Sunday or whatever, so it was like started out as probably about a foot and then the rain came and sort of ruined it on the shoreline.
+
+[20:52] Man, yeah. You know, in New York, we had some snow. Is there anything Nastasi more disgusting than old snow in New York City? So gross. Here's another thing. People take their dogs out to go to the bathroom in the snow. And then for some reason, they're like, hey, it's snow. I don't need to pick up the poop. No, especially you need to pick up the poop if there's snow because then when the snow melts in New York City people, for those of you that don't live in a city, when the snow melts in the city, the dog poop comes out to play, like all the dog poop, the people didn't pick
+
+[21:18] up, just like starts like, like, it's like a glacier leaving,
+
+[21:22] all, instead of like little rocks strewn all over the glacial till, you get like dog poops everywhere.
+
+[21:26] It's the worst. Speaking of which I feel really bad. Major, my Labrador. Today, peed on a fruit vendor's box as they were unstacking it in the morning. What did you do? I didn't notice it until it was too. don't know. It's just horrible. horrifying. Horrifying. Did you go ostrich? I might have gone a little ostrich. I might gone a lot. You know, when living in a society... I mean, like, the thing is, I mean, what am I gonna do about it? Pay him for the whole box of fruit? Okay, I'll tell you a story. I was once with a guy. I was once with a guy, right? thought this was a family show. I was once with a guy and he was drunk out of his mind and we were in a taxicab and he threw up in the taxicab. You ever been in this situation of Stasia? Where someone's thrown up in a taxicab? So the taxi driver starts yelling at me. I didn't throw up, so I don't know why he's yelling at me, but he's yelling at me and I'm like, listen, I'll give you here. We'll get out. I'll help you clean and whatever I'll pee. like, and like, I was gonna, I paid him, like, a lot of extra money. He's like, I can't take in another, you know, person because I have to go get this professionally clean, blah, blah, blah. I out all this money. So I gave him all this money and I cleaned up all the puke out of the back of this thing. And he's complaining about how he's not gonna be able to pick anyone up. And literally, I'm like trying to get my friend like standing again. I look over, as soon as he pulls away, he throws on his freaking dome and pick someone else up within my
+
+[22:48] vision, within my freaking vision. So I'm not about to pay anyone for, he's like, I can't sell it. Of course he's going to sell the freaking fruit. He's gonna sell the freaking fruit. Let me tell you this also, from a from a disgust level. It was just the box. It wasn't on the fruit. It was the box. But now it gets a little bit, like a little bit. In truth, a little bit of pee on the box is much less disgusting than what you see every day, which they actually spill their product on the ground, right?
+
+[23:18] Because P theoretically sterile. Okay. Whatever. It still, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. Dave, did you say we had another call or not? We do have another call. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Kristen Greenzone again. How you doing? Hey, doing all right. What going on? Hey, did you ever figure out that mint thing, by the way? Did you ever figure out that mint thing? Did you ever get the mint green, green, green? Wasn't that you? No, man, it's impossible. So I have this person that I'm dealing with who has, uh, it's not freeze dried, but it's like similar to freeze dried. I'm wondering whether if you use like this, which I can't talk about her process, but if you
+
+[23:55] have like something like that or maybe freeze dried mint pulverized, so the enzymes have been wiped out by dehydration, whether you
+
+[24:02] could get a really serious mid-flavor that way. don't know. You ever tried freeze dried? No, I haven't, but I'll think about it. Anyway, so what's your question? Yeah, so, um, I have a bunch of your BDX cocktail cubes, I think they work, you know, quite well. Um, one of my favorite bars in DC has an entirely hand cut ice
+
+[24:21] program, so they only shake with one giant hand cut block of ice. And they get foam on their cocktails, like, imagine just like a regular sour, like a daiquiri or something. It's such a foam as if you'd think they've been using egg white. Um, just from the way they shake and ice they're using. And like no matter what I do, using Europe cubes using big ice cubes myself, I can't get that.
+
+[24:44] What size ice cube do these? You knew what precisely they might be doing. I don't. What size ice cube were they using? Uh, about 22 inch cubes. Right. So I made... I made the cocktail cube slightly smaller, then I would have making making. That would have made it, uh, if I could guarantee what shaker you were using. So like the cocktail cube is made such that it will also shake effectively inside of a 16 ounce pint glass.
+
+[25:18] Um, whereas if I knew you were going to use just like, you know, uh,
+
+[25:25] standard, um, tin shakers set, then I would have made it bigger. So that's probably some of it. Also, like those ice cubes, the one advantage that ice does have over the one that's
+
+[25:37] pre-made, is that it will kind of beat itself into the shape of your shaker as it's
+
+[25:43] shaking. You know what I mean? And so it'll it'll kind of optimize itself to the shaker as it's being used. So there might be some kind of advantage there. Also, and all their bartenders get good texture or is it one or 2 bartenders? Um, I've only noticed it from one. I mean, he's the owner operator, and he's my friends when I go there, I try to like sit in front of him. How tall is he? How tall, not tall at all? Huh. Because we had a bartender at Booker and Dax, Michael Smoli, who has like super long arms, and I swear to God, that guy's shaking drinks,
+
+[26:18] texture are like, I mean, better than I could do. That's for sure. You know what I mean? Like when we were using the same ice, same everything. And, you know, I'm a big fan of saying that, like, there's, you know, that, you know,
+
+[26:30] that not to worry and that we can all get good results, which is basically true, but man, his freaking
+
+[26:36] shaken drinks, just because his, is your friend, maybe he's not too tall. Does he have monkey arms? No, not really. I mean, like, Smoli's, like, shake is like somehow, I, you know what? You have never investigated. I've investigated speed of shake, but I've never investigated throw length. Does he have an extraordinarily long throw length on his shape? It's interesting because he does sort of, I mean, he shakes fast, but it's also kind of like
+
+[27:00] weird like circular back and forth thing, I guess. Yeah, I've never been able to discern and, you know, we've run the test where I have like, you know, a bunch of different bartenders using different shaking techniques and speed and all of
+
+[27:14] that. And I've never obviously found a difference in temperature of the drink and therefore in dilution. But, uh, and I wasn't able to notice much textural difference in the 1st round.
+
+[27:25] Um, that we did based on texture other than the ice floating on the surface. And this was years ago, though. And we were we were using mainly bartenders who were all within a relatively narrow range of
+
+[27:40] styles. This is on your blog, right? Yeah, yeah, years and years and years ago. And we were all using the same ice, cold draft. It would be interesting to rerun with big ice and see whether or not shaking style can influence the texture of the drink when using big ice.
+
+[27:58] And you know what? It might be possible because, you know, it might be possible. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I'm wondering is that when I shake with big ice, I'm using regular, you know, ice mold ice, which is not perfectly clear and has, you know, air bubbles and imperfections and stuff in it, whereas they're, you know, carving their cubes out of
+
+[28:16] giant clear blocks. And I'm wondering if the ice itself makes a difference. you know, the character of the ice regardless of the shape. Yeah, I highly doubt it. And my, my, the, the thing about the, um, like frozen shake guys is, I, you know, it is true that sometimes,
+
+[28:37] especially like, let's say you have hard water and or a lot of, uh, gas and the ice is super cloudy, right? So it's not just a situation where you have a modestly clear cube with that
+
+[28:49] like white ball of garbage in the middle of it. Okay? Those cubes tend to rupture when you're shaking with them. And if your cube ruptures when you're shaking, then you're not getting the texturizing effect of it
+
+[29:03] anyway, right? Because it's basically a physical effect, in my opinion. Maybe that's maybe that is an advantage to the perfectly clear eyes. Yeah, the perfectly clear ice won't won't shatter, but I have to say, our shake ice doesn't shatter either. Now we are, New York City water is pretty, um, you know, is
+
+[29:22] pretty relatively, you know, soft and inclusion free. Uh, and if we, you know, in, in our dump sink, if I was noticing a bunch of shattered shake cubes, I would be, I would change what we did because
+
+[29:36] they, one, as soon as it shatters into, into pieces, it's no longer serving its function as a
+
+[29:42] texturizer. But, um, I am now interested in whether I don't have the, you
+
+[29:49] know what? Like when we get the new bar up and running. I'll run some tests or maybe you can run some tests and come back to me. Different shake styles when using big ice because it's a test I've never run blind. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that my friend has said is that I sort of kills the foam. So he says he just shakes with one cube, and he shakes it in a way to not break up the cube, and then like strains it as soon as possible. He doesn't let the shakers sit around before straining it. Well that's definitely true. I mean, but the same is true of like, you shouldn't let it sit around in the glass before you drink it. Well, of course. But I mean, so, you know, I was doing these tests myself. I made myself a bunch of daiquiris last night. And as soon as I cracked the tin, there was like a huge amount of foam in the tin, and then I poured it out through, uh, cocktail kingdom corico strainer, so no fine straining, into the glass, I'm
+
+[30:40] like almost immediately the foam dissipated. Right. And I'm wondering, why would that happen? Well, there's not much in a daiquiri to hold foam. You know what I mean? Like, there's just not much there. Uh, you know, so, you know, and people have tried using different syrups with stuff in it to
+
+[30:56] hold, um, to hold the phone better, like gum syrups and things like this. Does gum syrup help for that? I've never had good luck with it, to be honest. Yeah, I know, I know your opinion's on... Yeah, I mean, like, but, you know, the, that's not to say that other people, you know, with anything in life, right? You only test what you test and if you don't find a lot of, um, you know, if that tree of inquiry is not bearing fruit, you tend to just drop it.
+
+[31:25] And there could be, you know, it could be that if you just stuck with it or change your parameters a little bit, you get some kind of golden recipe. So, you know, like, I'm totally, um, with anything in cooking or, you know, basically anything in
+
+[31:39] life, if someone comes and shows you something that's awesome, then it's awesome and you got to change your position. You know what I mean? I have not yet been shown that. I also don't believe, I believe that, um, I don't believe that I don't understand the ice being a kind of a foam killer situation. Well, I think he meant, like, if it breaks up into little pieces, it just, um, it, you know, it'll, it'll melt and kind of kill the
+
+[32:02] phone, I don't quite understand. I don't really care. I tend to not believe anything. anyone says. I believe the results people get. And then the trick is analyzing how they got the results and what the actual reason is, right? So what you know is that your buddy gets superior results,
+
+[32:19] right? So now we also know that your buddy uses a large hand cut ice. So then the question is, okay, if you were to load 2 shakers with different ice loads, like one regular shake ice and one ice, the same size as the shake
+
+[32:35] ice and have him shake both, do they come out? And then if that's the case, then it's something having to do either with his shaking or his pouring procedure or one of those
+
+[32:46] two. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. I'd be interested to hear, like, whatever you, whatever you find out, because when we reopen, whenever you reopen a new place, uh, I think it makes
+
+[32:57] sense, and even if you have the time, if it's hard when you're actually running in service, uh, it makes sense to, um, kind of
+
+[33:04] reevaluate fresh all, all of your precepts. You know what I mean? And then, um, that's how you, you know, as I say, that's how you learn by just constantly reevaluating yourself. It's just who has the time, when you're actually in service, you just never have the time to reevaluate
+
+[33:19] everything, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, and I personally don't have access to clear handcut ice. So. Well, you could buy, you know, you can buy it from ice carving places, and then you have the added fun of being able to break down a block. So, you know, for some reason, the guys at Sambar,
+
+[33:37] like they were all like hemming and hawing about it, but I wanted to get one of those £200 ice blocks in, not for service, just, you know, as a fun thing for the bartenders to do to kind of break it down, but, you know, we
+
+[33:48] never we never did it. You know, but then, I don't know, like, remember that, Stas? I was like, you know, I'll get a chainsaw. We'll do the whole the whole thing, you know? Uh, and then it just never it never happened. But I'm sure if you're friends with this person, They'll lend you some cubes. You take it home, you throw them in the freezer, let them temper out before you use them. Do they they cut to order? Are they that? How long does it take them to make a drink? I mean, they cut them sort of at the beginning of shift and they be halfway through the shift, like the reload. Yeah, okay. So yeah, I'm sure that like, or you could just go there like, you know, if you're friends with them, go there like before service sometime and like run a, you know, run a test with them, you know, something like
+
+[34:24] that. I'd be interested to hear what happens. Yeah, in the meantime, I'm going to send you a picture of what one of their steak and drinks looks like, you know what I'm talking about. All right, cool. Yeah. Then we'll get, but you know what? We'll have a battle of the east coast. Now, bring Michael Smoley in and have Michael go to town on you guys. We'll see if it gets the best shaking drinks. Sounds good. All right. Cool, babe. Alright, you want to take a break and come back, Dave? Sure. Right back with cooking issues.
+
+[35:16] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[35:55] Browse chest steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat, and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
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+[36:10] For more information and to order yours now. Visit chef steps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we are back. Time to do a little more business. We got the got some modernist pantry business to do. By the way, we don't have an announcement this week for the spins all. We do. We are not. charging your credit cards. Oh yeah, we should say that now. We had some people. Here's what happened. Let me do we'll do the ad first. Do the ad. Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[36:54] Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere
+
+[37:04] else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences.
+
+[37:11] Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry, the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes,
+
+[37:25] tips, and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools.
+
+[37:33] I think they just called you a culinary tools, does. Nice. Sick burn. Dad, no, Dax does that all. Dax does all that all the time. Anytime anyone says any relatively like word that can be taken in a pejorative way, Dax is like, dad, they just called you that. Like, whatever it is. I think you learned it from. You learned it from watching May? Yeah, yeah. Wait, so what else were we going? We were talking about... not charging credit cards. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we had an issue. So the, we're using a kind of a, uh, kind of a fake crowdfunding thing for the spins all called a thrinacea. What does that even mean? We looked it up once, right? Thnacia. That girl's drinking coffee with MCT oil,
+
+[38:13] cashew, and cacao and it says it's paleo. What's MCT? don't know. But is coffee paleo? Uh, well, it depends. I mean, like Paleo, the definition of Paleo, right? make it as a caveman. Right, but like what's in there? coffee. Okay, so we're talking now like Ethiopian highlands. What else? MC. Maybe Yemen. I don't know what that is. Cashew and cacao. So cashews don't come from there. So unless you were like, I don't know. Yeah, so like, that's the thing. No, Paleo is like anything. Basically, it means not grains. Nothing that has been... So they would have been able to make coffee back then. You can go, I think there are wild coffee species that you could kind of do that
+
+[38:59] to. I doubt that they're using that. You know what I mean? Like, so the Ethiopian would have to go where to get the cashews and then back. Cashews, uh, where are cashews from? I think that they're they're Asian, aren't they? Aren't they like, or like, uh, also like... Also, like that Paleo person, like, you know, let's hope, you know, getting the cashew out of the cashew apple can be very irritating to your skin.
+
+[39:24] You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't seem very likely. You know what I mean? doesn't seem doesn't seem likely. cashews originated in Brazil. Okay. What? Really? That's what the Internet says. Why do they grow all the cashew apples in Asia then? Anyway, so... Brazil. So yeah, so not possible. This is not possible. Not real. So the paleo guy. Or woman in like the highlands of, I forget whether it's Yemen or Ethiopia around there, right? that area of the world, right? Finds like some high altitude coffee bush, right? Takes the coffee beans, cherries off. And then you know the story of Kaldi's goats, right? The story is, is that these coffee cherries fell into the fire and got
+
+[40:09] boint, and then the goats ate it, and then the goats went crazy because of all the caffeine, and
+
+[40:15] Caldy realized that the goats were eating these things, and that's what got the goats all hyped up.
+
+[40:21] And that's how Caldy figured out that coffee was the Stiznuff, right? So what we're saying here is that somehow this person got hit on the head, right? Somehow, they floated all the way down, right out. Somehow, like, I don't know how they made it out into the open ocean, right? And then around, and then they made it all the way to South
+
+[40:45] America. And luckily, their paleo pocket still had coffee in them. that they then roasted. And they're like, hey, there's fruit that's incredibly like irritating in my skin.
+
+[40:58] If I ripped the seed out of it. I can turn that into an edible cacao. Yeah. Well, that's from that same neighborhood. Oh, good, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's in luck. Yeah, yeah, he's in luck. Not Paleo. I don't understand what that means. It's stupid. I don't know. Hey, look, Nastasia, you don't want to insult a Paleo. She has a very good looking colored drink, though. don't know what the hell that is. It's not the coffee. It's not the garbage thing. Anyway, but my point is, is that people love the Paleo stuff. I don't understand it. I understand it. So we're not charging credit cards. So back to the spins all. So, uh, So they, they, they kind of weak crowdfunding thing that we use, Trinacea, like, as soon as you stop the campaign, it's like, okay, we're charging everybody now, even though we had told everyone that we weren't charging them, so that's why it gave everyone a pre-authorization, but we're not charging you until we give the next update, and it's going to be hopefully soon, we're working with,
+
+[41:48] uh, we're working with the factory now to get, uh, some updates, right?
+
+[41:52] Okay. Back to some questions. Um, okay. Now this is Matt, not from Mystic. I found your show a few weeks ago, and I'm churning through the back catalog. Ned, my five-year-old son is fascinated with the concept of anyone anywhere being referred to as
+
+[42:11] The Hammer, and asked multiple times a day how he could become a hammer. Any insight you could provide would be to his delight, I'm sure. All right, style, so give them some insight. I don't know. gave me that name. Well, it's like, again, I've told people this many times, but like the Nastasia that you get here on the cooking issues radio podcast. You won't let me be the Anastasia I am in real life. Well, no. Why can't she live, Dave? Why can't she live? What do you mean? So you don't like it when I, I'm like, all right, one question to the callers. You're like, let them do what they want to do. Well, I mean, so it's, well,
+
+[42:50] it's like, you ask and then you are like, no, don't do that. Well, I guess it's kind of like, but like to really know what she's like. You have to see how she treats me off air. Or anyone, really. Like, for instance, like, it could be that she's just like, like, Nastasia is someone, and I kind of appreciate this about you. Like, you like to kick people when they're down. You know what I mean? If you think only friends. Only friends. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like if you're just the ones who can take it. Like, yeah, you know, well, they dish it to everyone dishes, it takes it. don't do it to anyone who doesn't dish it. Yeah, except for the fact that it's also true that you have 0 respect for people that can't take it. So do you. That's where that's that's the one thing. That's the one thing that we really agree on. The one diagram. Yeah, you don't even... Yeah, like, if you, Yeah, if you can't, it's like, like, it's Nastasia is beyond if you don't dish it if you can't take it. She's like, if you can't take it, get out of my face. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. Yeah, life's too short and dishing it out is so enjoyable that if you can't take it, you're just
+
+[44:03] weak. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I would never want to, like, I would never want to live in, like, an eggshell world where you had to, like, you know, but Nastasia, like, the
+
+[44:15] thing Nastasia is, like, unlike, you know, me. Nastasia in, like, enjoys it to the point where you're getting visibly agitated, not because you can't take it, but because she's literally
+
+[44:28] feeling time that you could be using to solve a problem with endless queries about how your problem's not going
+
+[44:35] well. For instance, the worst place for Nastasia to be is in the cockpit of an airplane with a problem. You know what I mean? Because she'll be like, she'll be like, you're losing altitude. You're losing altitude. The altitude's going down, and you're like, I know. I know. You know what I mean? When really, instead of saying, I know. You'd be spending. No, you wouldn't. be too interested in messing with the pilots to like, to like worry about actually dying. You know what I mean? The stall warning's going off. Couldn't we say the same for you though, Dave? I mean, like, for example, when you were grilling her about why she doesn't care about coffee. Oh, open that up. That was a big, that was a special one for us. No, but like that, I mean, like, that's like, the reason is, is because also what I know about Nastasia is that she's just saying it to be ornery.
+
+[45:28] Oh, that's not true. It's like, it's like people who say that they like, it's like people who say they like egg white omelets. Does anybody on earth like an egg white omelet? No, they are freaking gross. They are freaking gross. It's just a crappy meringue. An egg white, an egg white omelet is a poorly made meringue without sugar. It's just like, it's gross. You know what I mean? It's just nasty. Nobody likes it. They think they like it. It's like my sister with her freaking one% milk. Does anybody like that garbage? No, it's disgusting. And what I hate is people who convince themselves that they like this garbage and
+
+[46:03] it's really for like wrong health reasons. I'm okay, like, let's say, let's say you literally can't have something anymore because you're allergic to it or
+
+[46:12] it'll kill you, right? Like, I can't have cherries right now until we figure out this allergy thing. Someday they'll figure it out. Right? So, like, if I said, I don't like cherries, because I can't have them allergic to, or then I would be like, okay, the guy is just trying to deal with a problem he has,
+
+[46:27] right? The guy is just trying to take his sour grapes and turn him into sweet lemons. You know what I'm saying? I would excuse that kind of behavior because there's no way around it. So you might as well pretend that the way your life is, is the way you want it. You know what I'm saying? a lot of fruit in that analogy. Yes, as usual. But like the foot, but in situations, like with the one% milk, where what you're doing isn't helping you at all or making a real difference, I just can't tolerate people saying that they actually
+
+[46:56] like it. You know what I mean? I be like, just say that you're following it for some crazy health reason. Or some sort of like belief you have, some mystical belief that, you know,
+
+[47:05] that that milk is going to change your life. Or anything. You know what I'm saying, Stas? You're the same way. On the other hand, on the take the other side of it, just give people what they freaking want. You know what? You know what's not fun? Like being harangued by someone about your eating beliefs while you're doing it. So like, I'll give you another example. You know how like when you cook something for somebody. Okay, we've had this discussion before. What is your least favorite thing when you cook for someone that they do to you when to the food that you've made them? Uh, season it before they eat it? Oh really? My favorite is disassemble and disassemble it. Oh, like a hamburger and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, they take it apart or like a sandwich and they take apart the parts of the sandwich, but like, just I assembled it in the order I wanted to. But the thing is, like, they're going to enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. Let's take my son Booker, who, as I said, you know, has some issues with like food. But like, he has his, like, things so dry that they're, I know they are completely unpalatable. And if you could just have him try the stuff the way you want it, you know it would be better. But you can't force people to do that. Give them eggs and chicken for dinner one night. Because that's what he wants. He eats only protein. Why am I eating eggs and chicken? You said shut up. No, I said it to you. I said it to you. Look, you don't know what it's like to cook for someone who's extremely picky. But, like, the, uh, my point being that, like,
+
+[48:25] is it, it's a hard, as a cook, it's very hard to ride the line between what you want people to like and what they actually like.
+
+[48:33] But you should usually just give people what they want. If they want an egg white omelet, just give them the freaking egg white omelet. You know what I mean? And then, like, go in the back room and just punch something. You know what I mean? get a get a punching bag, drink an extra couple glasses of wine. Like that's a solution. You know what I mean? Um, There is a solution. I'll give you an example, I'll give you an example. I am not going to say who it is, but there's someone I've known a long time and they're well known in the food world. At a certain point in college, worked at a FroYo joint, right? And all the sorority, uh, um, people would come
+
+[49:08] in and they would order the fat-free granola to be a topping on their fat-free fro yo, right? Now, if you would serve them full fat granola, they would not have liked it because it's full fat. Let me give you another hint here. There's no such thing as no fat granola. So what this person used to do was heap the regular granola, which is
+
+[49:31] basically a method to take oats and have them carry fat for you,
+
+[49:36] right? And like, we put the full fat granola on top and they freaking loved it. But if you told them that they were eating fat, and she was, say this, if you told them that they had full fat granola, they'd be like, can we, I don't like it. It's too greasy. Can you get me the granola you used to have? And she's like, it's the same granola. But it's not cool. It's not cool to serve somebody something and lie about it. You ever do that? Uh, yeah. Really? They're like, is there any butter in this? I'm trying to be on a diet. And I'm like, no. See, I can't lie to people. The only, I used to lie. The 2 times I've lied that I can remember about food, 2 times I've
+
+[50:12] lied. One, I'm sitting there grinding pepper onto a steak, right? Grinding, just grinding a lot of pepper on a steak. And Booker comes up and he was going through an anti-pepper cake. He's like, are you putting pepper on that steak? I said, no. Because he can literally see me grinding pepper onto it. I was like, no, I'm not. And then that was it. He was like, oh, and he walked away. And the other was the time that Dax was like, I don't want French toast. I hate French toast. I was like, try my Lithuanian toast. He was very young and he loved it. And like a couple years later, he was like, he was like, uh, that was the same as French toast, wasn't it, dad? I'm like, yes, yes, it was. You know what I mean? So anyway, Lithuanian toast. Where did we get to? Oh, so how do you become the hammer? Just, uh, I don't know, just, you know, just
+
+[51:01] be be more Nastasio-like, I guess, right? Okay. Now, for the food question. Years ago, my grandmother taught me to home canned tuna, uh, which
+
+[51:11] is, uh, raw tuna, a quarter teaspoon salt packed in half pint jars, £11 of pressure for an hour and 40 minutes.
+
+[51:18] That's 100 minutes, right? Yeah, that's standard. Uh, and I learned that cannedfish need not be vile dried, flavorless, uh, dried out flavorless Drek. Every other year or so, we'll haul ourselves out to the Oregon coast and pick up a couple whole line caught tuna and process them. The quality is so much better than supermarket tuna. It's like a completely different product altogether. I've had the fortune to taste some of the higher end Spanish and Russian tin stuff. I've never had the Russian stuff. You ever have Russian? Russian tin stuff that's, I've had, anyway, it's pretty damn fantastic. I'd like to gear my approach to eventually aging some of these out, as I've heard this is relatively common for Spanish producers to do, though I may be misinformed on
+
+[51:58] this. I'm only able to really find basic tame recipes for canning from my local extension office. Shout out to OSU. While these are great, they tend to err on the side of caution instead of the side of quality. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge or experience getting freaky with home canned fish. My 1st targets would probably be trout, mussels, and clams. Razors, long necks, and cockles are easiest to get for us. The whole family retains appropriate licenses to get them, so these little buddies are easy and basically free to get. Thanks for any insight and guidance, Matt. Uh, I haven't actually done my own, um, uh, canning. I happen to really like canned fish of all types, including, I like canned octopus, I like canned mussels. I like canned oysters, I like canned tuna, I like canned sardines, all I
+
+[52:44] can, uh, mackerel. You like all that stuff, right, stuff? Yeah I love that stuff. But, uh, I have had the age stuff. Harold McGee brought us once aged stardines. I think he had also some aged spam, and he might have had some aged tuna. Remember that? Somebody got sick. Piper, who used to work for us, claimed he got sick, but who knows? You know, you know, with Piper's life, who knows what made him sick? know what I mean? Spam doesn't have any gluten in it. Right? No, it's just not. A lot of salt. But we had them up to, I think, what was it? was it 5 or 10 years old that McGee brought? It was something pretty old like that. And it was good. I mean, like, actually, the sardines, I think there was so much variants because we had both Spanish and French producers. I think the variants between the different sardines was almost as high as the variants on
+
+[53:36] aging, so it was kind of hard to check out. Also, Lucky Peach did something on aging. But relative to getting freaky with it. Here's the issue. Uh, the canning recipes are based on the amount of time and temperature it takes to get
+
+[53:53] uh, the fish up to a point where spores are killed because tuna is considered, well, not considered is low acid, um, food, right? So what they're trying to do is kill Um, specifically, uh, botulism. Now, the time and temperatures that you're using for canning of those things kill all of the
+
+[54:16] pathogenic explorers, but I think for things like clam, you might even actually need to go higher longer to kill anything that might possibly grow in it, right?
+
+[54:24] Which is why occasionally you'll get cans that'll that'll blow, even though you've, um, even though you've cooked them. I don't know that for a fact, but I read somewhere that, uh,
+
+[54:33] clams, in order to be 100% completely sterile against everything ever, uh, that you're going to do, need to go, um, a little higher in
+
+[54:41] temperature, and, um, but I'm not sure. So no, I've never gone freaky. You might be able, if you really wanted to do, lower temp. What I would do is this first. I would not, I would try to do a lower time temp and see whether it really makes a difference. Don't try to preserve it. Just keep it in the fridge for like a week, right? Because put it this way. Let me just go back, go back for a minute to start fresh. What you want to do is you want to attempt to cook the fish for
+
+[55:11] a, you can't cook it for a lower, at a lower temperature too much because you need to kill the spores, period,
+
+[55:18] right? That's why you're trying to make it shelf stable. What you can do is you can see whether or not cooking it at an intermediate temperature even makes a difference,
+
+[55:26] right? So, like, let's say you did just regular boiling water canning, and you did it for, you know, you know, 110, 110, uh, 100
+
+[55:36] minutes or whatever it is, and then you put it into your fridge, you let it age for, uh, you know, you let
+
+[55:42] it, like, mellow out for like a week, uh, week and a half . It's going to be fine, right? Then you pull it out and you taste it. What does that taste like, compare it to fresh canned properly tuna? Is it better? Is it worse? It might that it might be actually worse. Those higher temperatures, right? Once you've overcooked the tuna, the higher temperatures might actually
+
+[56:02] resoften the meat a little bit and increase the kind of meaty, you know, kind of flavors you get out of it. So you might find that those lower temperature canned fish might actually be not as good. So I would run that test just to kind of see what's going on. Whether you prefer, like, whether you prefer it straight out of the gate. Now, if you if you do, in fact, prefer a lower temperature, let's say, uh, like a boiling water can,
+
+[56:30] um, where it's sealed in a can, it's just under boiling water. then you can start looking into things like adding nitrites to it to
+
+[56:38] kill to kill the botulism such that botulism can't grow. And then you wouldn't be killing other sport forming things necessarily, but you might make it bacteriostatic enough, such that you could age it with a lower temperature, um, lower temperature canning
+
+[56:52] procedure. But I would run some tests 1st to see whether or not it even makes sense. Does that make sense and stuff, yeah? Yes we are out of time. What? It's one o'clock. I had a question on, uh, what was it? It was on aging from Ritz. What was it about here? Oh, all right, well, we'll just get up, okay. I'll get to it real real quick. Moritz wrote in about aging and said, by the way, what's the address people should send their questions into? and Lopez at bookerandox.com. You got that, people? and Lopez Lopez and Lopez at bookerandax.com. Um, Anyway, uh, Maurice writes in, I'd love to hear what you guys think about ultrasonic aging and infusing uh, with regards to um, spirits. And so what they do is, is people have used ultrasound to, uh, basically they flow liquor over
+
+[57:42] woodchips, uh, and then they can alter the temperature and aerate it and they hit it with ultrasound as a way to speed age it. And the question is, what do I think about that? And what I think is this. It might be possible to get a good tasting liquor this
+
+[57:58] way. In other words, you might be able to get a result that you like, but I never think that accelerated aging or accelerated anything is a substitute for
+
+[58:09] the slower, well, very rarely. Like, is this substitute, the same thing. So I think everyone in the world should just stop what they're doing, stop focusing on, is, uh, is rapid infusion, and long-term
+
+[58:26] infusion, is rapid aging, slow aging. Are they the same? They're never going to be the same. It's never, ever, ever going to be the same. The question is, they're different. Are they both useful? Can they both make delicious products and then if they can use the technique that you want to get the result that you
+
+[58:43] want? Next week, I'm going to talk about connected tissue because Todd wrote back about a connective tissue, and Nick Devlin in the UK is working maybe on us with some heat transfer
+
+[58:52] stuff, so we might have more fun, low temperature meat stuff to talk about next week on Happy Valentine's Day on cooking issues.
+
+[59:05] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, Food Radio Supported by You. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website,
+
+[59:22] heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[59:41] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at bobsredmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-LE.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly
+
+[0:37] 1245 reverse pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling all of your cooking related questions or otherwise, really. 27184972128. That, 718-497-2128, joined, as usual, in the studio with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Good, how are you? All right, it's been a while, right? Two weeks is we missed last week? What was I? Was I I was away? You were I was away. I was here? I was not here. Then I would have been here in the studio. You weren't here, here. You weren't here here, but you were in New York. I was not in New York. You stepping out on us, Dave? No, I was not in New York. Oh, wait, there's some, no, I had to go to a doctor. That's it. With my son. I had to take my son to. That's what it was. And Dave joined as usual in the booth with Dave. How you doing? Good, how about you? Like, you know what the problem is? Is it like, you have no catchy nickname? You have no catchy nickname? Maybe someone in the You haven't given me one yet. I know, but like, Anastasia's microphone's wandering away. Like, I know that Nastasia enjoys not speaking into the microphone, so that no one can hear what she's saying, but this microphone in particular is conspiring against her
+
+[1:42] today. And like, that noise you hear is Nastasia trying to tell her microphone, what,
+
+[1:47] what? And look, it's just like curving away from her, throwing the hate down Anastasia. You know what? Nastasia, that is a wise microphone. That is a wise microphone moving away from you. I don't know, Dave, that that's going. Wow. Dave just did a serious, like, like, spitting bubble gum
+
+[2:04] solution, and he pulled the microphone out of its socket and then jammed it into the socket
+
+[2:09] sideways. What? That's pretty good. Yeah, no, gotta love it. That's why I get the big books. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right? He really wanted Peter Kim on. Who did, Dave? Why? He didn't need a whipping boy? Miss Peter, you know? I'm sure Peter will come on. He's a good foil for you, of course, too. Yeah, nice. And he'll actually say things, unlike someone I know, Nastasia. I think you would hate it more if I said a ton of. I like how you say hate it more. Like the baseline is hate. The baseline is hate. I think we should try, though. I mean we'll never know unless you try, right? right. No, it would drive him crazy. We've had people on who take away from him. What do you mean, take away from? You such a jerk, Nastasia. That would take away from you. don't consider it like that. I enjoy having people on. talking to people. That's when you start mouth, mouth. See, people, Nastasia, Nastasia just is one big pile of just evil feelings. No, it's a funny story. Why can't we do? Because it also deals with somebody else. No, we never have to bring that part up, ever. Look, I'm intrigued. So when you're talking, when someone's talking to you, and you're really mentally nervous and you're not nervous, nervous is not the right word, but like mentally excited, like your brain's turning really quickly, and the other person is saying something, and you've, in your mind,
+
+[3:28] like anticipated everything that that person's going to say, and you can't wait for them to stop saying it so you can face something else. Even if you're listening to them and absorbing and enjoying what they're saying, it's like you like want the conversation to already be like 3 or 4 minutes ahead because you know what that person in your, well, and also in your head,
+
+[3:45] like, you know, in your head, like you've mapped out the whole conversation, sometimes it changes. But I've seen this not just in me, but in other people. So it's this mouth puppeting where you're literally like, in order to stay focused on what they are saying instead of racing ahead, you literally mouth the words that they are saying as they are
+
+[4:03] saying them. And so it's incredibly irritating to people when, you know, anyone does it. So, like, Nastasius caught me doing it on several occasions. And so she's punch me right in the face. She's supposed to punch me right in the face when I do it. Right in the face. Right? Anyway. Uh, so, but Nastasi just being like evil. No, no, no. See that's the thing. I'm not evil. See, she has this idea that, like, I want people on and then, like, I get mad somehow when they say something because she thinks I care about, like, my voice tan, which is not the case. If I sat here and didn't just spew a continuous line of words,
+
+[4:45] Nastasia would just sit there with a look on her face and say not one thing. You said when Harold was on that, you're just like, if he takes too long, you like cut him off and who said that?
+
+[4:56] It was you. It was you. You're an evil person. Dave Chang did not say that. Dave Chang is never listened to this show even one time. Or it was at an event that you were all co-hosting. You're just, like, 1st of all, also, Nastasia will take an offhand comment. Like, seriously, if this dude out here with a baseball hat that's eating a pizza right
+
+[5:19] now came in, met us for the 1st time and make a comment. If it was Timastasia's liking, she would bring it up for the next 15 years in defense of some crazy idea she has or the other.
+
+[5:30] It's just a case. It's just true. Oh, now now she's doing the, okay, I'm just, you know, okay. Go home to mom. Go home to mom. Wow. Wow. Wow. Just kidding. Wow, jeez, Louise. Anyway. So, um, a little bit of sad news, but I'm not gonna do the sad part of it. My grandpa died over the weekend. He was almost 98. He was 97. Is this the one in Florida? Yep, he was David Eugene Arnold the first, the 1st of the line. I'm the 3rd and last in that in that line because my wife was like, it's got to stop somewhere.
+
+[6:12] It's going to stop with you. So, like, I'm like, I'm David Eugene, Arnold, the third. Of course, my dad's number two. But, um, yeah, so he was uh, 90, uh, he was 97, almost 98. And Sharp, sharp up till the end. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see him. It's just old age. He was in his sleep. just died. Uh, he had been, he, he'd broken some um, bones over the past year and so he, he no longer could get around a lot. And so like once you're like lying in bed most of the time, like, you know, you tend to degenerate fairly quickly. to go to Florida? Um, I hate the funeral hasn't been. going to have to go to Florida. But the, um, anyway, I didn't get to see him as much as I'd like in the past 10 years or so, but it's one of
+
+[6:55] my, uh, I'll share some food stories. So, and I've said like a lot of these on air already, but, you know, in honor of him, I'll say, you know, say them again. The, um, he, he grew up in, uh, kind of Pennsylvania. so his brother actually worked in a pretzel factory during the Depression, and it was from like that branch of the family that, you know, all
+
+[7:17] Arnold's, true Arnold's, love pretzels, and hate fake pretzels. hate, like, non, like, hate pretzel sticks because they're not pretzel shaped, hate pretzels with added fat in them because they taste like
+
+[7:29] crackers. They don't taste like pretzels. And so like, you know, from him, I've inherited kind of that kind of side of, you know, love
+
+[7:35] of pretzels. But he also used to tell me stories about how he and his brother, who died at like the age of like
+
+[7:42] 101, would, like during the Depression, like people in the neighborhood would cut open pumpkins and just ferment them.
+
+[7:48] And one of my great food regrets is that something like 20 years ago when I went to visit him once, he was making dandelion wine and all these
+
+[7:59] like weird wines that were like, you know, hearkening back to his youth. And I was too stupid and snooty at the time. Maybe it's 25 years ago to like enjoy them. And so I was kind of a dick about them. And if I could only go back and like taste them with an open mind. I would be such a better human being than I am now. You should always take into account like the culinary heritage of your, of your, you know, of those who have come before you. anyway, a couple more things about them. So he was a radar designer. And during, uh, before World War 2 was working for Westinghouse, it was actually, uh, I think running or on the design team that designed the famous uh, radar at Pearl Harbor that was ignored by the military as
+
+[8:37] the as the Japanese were coming in to attack. So his radar actually saw the wave of planes coming in that was ignored. Interesting fact, but he kept on doing radar design over the years. And from that, I have several food related stories. One, he would tell me about the people and my dad, I think, also knew about this because he did some radar work, you know, when he was young, uh, just like his old man, uh, how they would, at Thanksgiving in the early warning, uh, in the early warning radar stations, uh, you know, way out up in the
+
+[9:05] boons, they would put a turkey at the focus point of the, um, of the
+
+[9:08] big uh, radar dishes, the giant early warning radar dishes and fry, and not fry, you know, microwave turkeys with giant radar dishes.
+
+[9:18] He also said that, uh, so the, the thing that runs a radar is a magnetron, which is the same thing that runs a microwave oven, and
+
+[9:24] the, the, the lore is that a Raytheon tech, uh, you know, the company Raytheon, Raytheon tech, noticed that a candy bar in his pocket was melting when he was getting close to these microwaves, and that's how he came to think of the microwave oven as being a kind of good
+
+[9:37] idea. Anyway, so the other story, and this is not food related, that related to the microwaves is that, um, is that the story, and this may not be true, but that, uh, so young soldiers used to fry, like this flash fry their nads when they would go out at night as a way of like temporary birth
+
+[9:55] control. But that's got to be apocryphal because who would do that? What lunatic would do that? What else? He, um, He was the one who I wanted to try years and years ago to convince to help me build a room size
+
+[10:07] microwave and he always refused to help me, just like my dad always refused to help me build lasers that were actually
+
+[10:12] going to damage people. Now you can buy them on eBay. What more food? So he was the one that told me about the chicken gun. Have I talked about the chicken gun on air before? So yeah, so I'll say it again briefly. So in, in they, they used to use um, a compressed air cannon to fire birds into windshields. This has been covered on mythbusters, but it used to fire birds into windshields to test the windshields for impact resistance.
+
+[10:34] And I forget why Mythbusters cared about it. But the thing that always intrigued me, as I said before on the show, is that grandpa said that
+
+[10:40] he, the janitor would come take the birds and cook them afterwards. And so I've actually built, I have it sitting in Connecticut, and once it warms up again, I'll start firing it again. I built a chicken gun so that I could fire last year I built it for that pilot that I never got used for anything. So I have a chicken gun. If anyone wants to like meet a fire stuff out of the chicken gun. I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want with the footage now. We can fire stuff out of chicken guns and cook them to see what kind of nice tenderizing
+
+[11:07] effect firing a bird out of a chicken has. Wow. Is it the chicken sound effects? You know, so there's that. When I was in grad school, I built a chicken gun based on a Delta 88 spring. That's a car for at least you that don't know old cars. Uh, it didn't work so well. Compressed air is really the way to go. Anyway, I now own a compressed air cannon. Um, what else? Last, but not least, almost every day, or not 2nd to last, but not
+
+[11:32] least, almost every day, he would mix himself a drink that he called the Bonnie Prince Charlie, which he assured me was a kosher name for this drink.
+
+[11:40] It was actually a rusty nail, which is scotch and trambouille. And if you want to, if you've never had drambouille, Trambouille is a mixture. a scotch base with honey, they say heather honey, and some spices, although, in reality, what a rusty nail is, or as my grandpa called it, a Bonnie
+
+[11:55] Presh Charlie, is essentially a scotch old-fashioned. So you can whip yourself up some honey simple syrup if you don't want to go out and buy the jambouille and make yourself a scotch old-fashioned. He had it built. He always built it on the rocks and you can do that. You could stir it down if you wanted a little more dilute. The standard recipe for rusty nail or Bonnie Prince Charlie, as he called it, is
+
+[12:14] 3 quarters, a trambooie, and an ounce and a half of scotch, which is preposterously sweet, especially if you're going to drink it as an
+
+[12:20] old-fashioned, if you're not going to stir it down. So I would shade that drambouille back or up to scotch or both. Uh, and last but not least, he was the person who said to me, uh, in his mid to late 90s that if God wanted you to drink skim milk, he would have made it come out of the cow that
+
+[12:36] way. Anyway. And so he lived to be... I always thought he'd be 100 styles, but he never made it to 100. I always assumed, like we always assumed, oh, we don't need to go down to Florida this year because he's obviously
+
+[12:46] going to make it 200. I was wrong. you know add it to another long list of the things that I'm wrong about. So, do you do anything cool this weekend? No. No? Nothing? Nothing good? You, Dave, anything? Any food related, anything? Food related. No. Not really. No? So I've been doing some interesting food related stuff, which maybe if I have time, I'll talk about later. So a person who listens on the radio, Nick Devlin in the UK has introduced me to the idea of this software console, which is
+
+[13:17] a physics modeling program. So I've been doing some, um, I've been doing some, um, modeling, some heat, heat modeling on low temperature cooking. If we have some time later, I could talk about some of my preliminary problems and
+
+[13:30] results because what I really need from the cooking issues crew, meaning you
+
+[13:34] guys who are listening, is, so I have to write this book. Maybe I'll talk about it now really briefly. I have to write this book on low temperature cooking. Now, the book is supposed to be specifically low temperature cooking
+
+[13:45] for that's useful in a home, right? So not like the crazy stuff that, you know, I was doing back at the French culinary institute and not stuff where it's a 1000000000 steps to get a result.
+
+[14:01] Like, you know, like my motto has typically been massive amounts of work for marginal amounts of improvement, right? So us? Like, that's my motto. Massive work, minimal improvement, improvement, but minimal compared to the amount of work I put in. And so this book has to not be that. So the mental theory of this book is going to be massive amounts of kind of thinking, research, thought, hemming and hawing at the outset, and then to use to make simplified recipes that people can do at
+
+[14:30] home. And a lot of, a lot of it is, I'm going to focus on things like kind of like party tricks, right? So like how to cook like your holiday roast or your, um, or like a crown roasted pork, things like this that really kind of, you know, have died out because they kind of suck
+
+[14:46] traditional, well, roast not, but like crown roasted pork, because they kind of, they're never quite right. You ever had one stars? Crown roast? You know what they look like, though. They look awesome. You've seen them in 70s pictures, no? So you take the whole, like, so imagine like a rack of lamb, but pork, but frenched out and then turned into a
+
+[15:01] tube. It's like a, like a monarch's crown, and then you stuff it full of stuffing in the middle, and then you like roast that sucker up and you serve it, and
+
+[15:09] like, it's just, it's a super baller 70s. I mean, and previous, but like, you know, I remember it from the 70s. It was like a thing people did back when A, pork was a little fattier and B, people were okay with things that were just cooked into
+
+[15:21] oblivion, you know what I mean? So you'd have this thing. But the problem is, is that, remember when I used to do the whole fish, fry whole fish? So the problem with frying a fish, uh, a whole thing, or frying anything that's
+
+[15:33] bent, is not only that it's large, and so you're going to tend to overcook the stuff on the outside, uh, or undercook the stuff on the inside, the problem once something is
+
+[15:42] bent is that you have very, very, uh, different, um, kind of thicknesses. So the outside gets overcooked way before the inside does, especially if there's like a lack of air circulation on the inside, let's say, a crown
+
+[15:54] roast or at the bent part of a whole fish, let's say, if you've bent a whole fish into a U shape, which is something that I do a lot.
+
+[15:59] So one of the great things about low temperature cooking is you can pre-cook the whole thing all the way through to a low temperature,
+
+[16:07] right? And then you can let it cool down, and then you can roast it on high heat and you're just looking for the color on the outside. We call this like low temperature or sous vide for insurance purposes, and you can do something like a crown roast really easily and not worry that you're either going to overcook or undercook the middle.
+
+[16:23] It's great, right? Um, Problem is, is that I've been trying to figure out exactly how to tell people to cool it down.
+
+[16:33] Similarly, even if you're doing like the classic, like every, every night low temperature that I do is like steak. Not every night, obviously, I don't have steak every night, but like that's my kind of usual, like, every day. I'm going to use a circulator meal is like steaks, right? So with steaks, I always tell people, and I've said this before in the air, a little bit. I tell people to, you know, cook the steak, whatever you're going to do, 55 degrees, then let it cool down. Uh, you know, I actually force the circulator down to about 50 degrees so that when I sear it, it doesn't go too high in temperature. Now, the problem with this technique in general, is that if you're gonna, if you're gonna do it, you have to use relatively thick
+
+[17:09] stakes, like inch and a quarter, inch and a half . Anything thinner than that. And even if you drop the temperature from, let's say, 55, which is what I cook to, Celsius, you drop it down to, let's say, 50 Celsius, you're still going to overcook the
+
+[17:21] center if you, um, if it's thinner than that. So already, like you're kind of limited because you have to use these thicker meats if you want to do this kind of a
+
+[17:30] technique. So, I mean, in the past, I've done techniques for smaller cuts of meat. where you low temp it and actually chill it down, keep it in the fridge, then bring it out and like flash fry it a couple times or pan it a couple
+
+[17:42] times and the inside comes up to temperature. The other problem with a thick steak, if you drop the whole thing down to 5 degrees, let's say, to 50, is that once you sear it, yeah, you haven't overcooked it, but the inside's a little
+
+[17:53] cool, and you've had it before stars, when people do low temperature meats. And like one of the issues is it's not warm enough on the plate, right? Because when you integrate the temperature across the whole thing. anyway. So it turns out that from a. I remember that fish we saw that was fried that was still alive. No, it's gross. separate story. We could talk about that. That's a classic preparation where you keep the animal's head alive and its gills alive. You wrap it in moist towels, and then you fry its body so that its head still alive while its body's cooked, which is... That's why the worst thing. pretty cool. What? in person. That's probably the worst thing I've seen in person. Yeah, I'll like, let's let's forget the cruelty. I also don't like the texture or taste. Right? I mean, in other words, like, no, man, I don't look, I'm not being straight up, like, I don't mean to be, like, horrible about it, but, like, not only is it
+
+[18:40] a, not only is it horrific, right? Not only is it horrific, it doesn't even get a good... Yeah, what's the
+
+[18:47] point even? If it doesn't taste good. Yeah, there's a huge cultural difference, though, because, like, you know, there's, you know, 100s of 1000000s of people who want their fish, like, crunchy like that. You know what I mean? No, what's the point of keeping it's just a trick. It's just a party trick to show like freshness, right? It's just a party trick. To play God. Yeah, it's like a party. It like a cruelties party trick. I mean, look, um, whatever. Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail you. So, no, so, like, no, Nastasia is the one that brought up the Nastasia brother. We were talking about whole fish, couldn't circulate. So she was just thinking about that. Yeah. I 1st saw that when I was a kid on an episode of a show called That's Incredible. It was either that or Ripley's Believe It or Not, which was an 80s show. And in that one, it was a little bit different. They didn't fry it. they did was they fileted it, left the body there, and then they replaced the filets on the living body of it. Also. And so you're sitting there and the gills are like, bip bop, bip bop. You know what I mean? And the fish is like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? Like, oh, man. Anyway, so back to the food. So here's the issue I need your help with people. Um, it turns out that the technically best way. so when you're cooking a piece of meat. Uh, the rate
+
+[20:09] at which uh, something heats up is dependent on the temperature delta,
+
+[20:14] okay? So the difference in temperature. That's why, like, you know, it takes a long, long time for the inside of a meat to get up the last couple of degrees because once the
+
+[20:24] meat, once the main body of the meat has started heating up, you have very small temperature difference between, let's say, the part of the meat that's in the very
+
+[20:33] center, from the part of the meat that's right next to it. And once the temperature difference is very small, the heating the temperature increase rate goes down and down and down. So your, the rate at which temperature can increase in a piece of meat is related to the difference in temperature between the heat you're
+
+[20:48] supplying and, I mean, between the temperature, you know, region that you're supplying heat from and the temperature region you're, you're putting heat into.
+
+[20:56] So, um, When you push a piece of meat down only 5 degrees, right, you're pushing it down and you haven't pushed it down that far, then when you're searing it, you put a very high temperature delta onto it,
+
+[21:10] right? You know, the surface of the meat's going to get up very quickly to about 100 degrees C, that, you know, it won't go above it until it crust forms, but that piece of meat there is going to be about
+
+[21:19] 100 degrees C. So you're going, you've reduced the inside of the hole inside of the meat by 5 degrees, but you're applying an
+
+[21:26] excess of 50 degrees temperature delta to it, and that forces a pretty big temperature spike through the meat.
+
+[21:33] So you have to chill the meat down quite a bit in order to have it not overcooked when you're searing it. So the correct answer is to actually force a large negative temperature delta into it. In other words, put the meat into cold water for a couple of minutes and then pull it out of the cold water and then sear it, and then it all averages out. The problem is, is that it's technically, right, that sounds like technically more of a pain in the ass. If I have to pull out a piece of meat out of a circulator and then throw it into,
+
+[22:02] you know, a pot of water in the sink with the cold water tap on drizzle and then time it for 3 minutes, then pull it out and then sear it, that seems like a huge pain in the ass, right,
+
+[22:11] Estasia? So the question I have in my mind is, is that if this is the technically best way to do
+
+[22:16] it, and it doesn't require thermometers or measuring anything just requires timing, is that too much for people to do at home or is that a reasonable step? Is that still like something that people will be like, oh yeah, I'll go do that. Or is that like, ah, I'd rather just not do that? You know what I mean? Like, that's the, so I'm going to have to run a bunch of tests. I need some mental advice from people out there over what is considered reasonable steps for people to do on an everyday kind
+
+[22:45] of, uh, cook. What do you think, Stas? No? I mean, also, like, you know, how do people want to fit, assuming that people aren't going to go buy a seers all, uh, or even if they are, like, what's the best way? Like, do people have a problem with deep frying finish? Do people not want a deep fry at home? Do people want to pan their stuff when they're finishing? Do people want to be able to oven finish this stuff? I gotta figure out what people want to do. Because I have to separate out in my head what I would do from what I think other people want to
+
+[23:15] do and then just provide them with the best protocol for what they want to do.
+
+[23:19] Does that make sense to us? anyways. Because you're willing to do a lot. I'm willing to do a lot for something that's only a little bit better. You know what I mean? And also, like, I have access to like, I have access to stuff that most people don't have access to. So I'm going to assume that just because I've organized my life that way. Um, You know, like, I'm assuming that in warmer weather months, people can finish on a grill. So, you know, I'll have a lot of grill stuff in there.
+
+[23:44] I'm assuming people are going to want to finish some stuff in an oven, but, you know, panning because it makes so much smoke is kind of a pain in the butt and also, deep frying, although it's technically superior, I just don't know what people are going to say. We got we got Robert in the chat room saying, sear using sears all or in a pan, never fried. Well, who said that? Robert in the chat room. Okay, so what does Robert have against frying? Robert, what do you have against Brian? See, the issue with frying is, remember, for meats that don't have a crust, the only issue with frying is if you
+
+[24:12] have, once your fry oil becomes even a little bit degraded. It leaves a kind of a fry taste on the outside, but like nice, not
+
+[24:22] hyperfresh because then it doesn't have good properties, but like oil that's in perfect condition, has no kind of
+
+[24:27] off flavors to it. You deep fry like a rack of lamb. Like you do a rack of lamb and you deep fry it for about, I don't know, a minute and a half ,
+
+[24:35] 2 minutes, you deep fry that rack of lamb, and the crust is perfect all the way around. So nice. But then you have to, like, if you don't like, if there, you know, then you towel it, you paper towel it, then you can brush with, you know, butter or whatever else you want. Same with steaks. Like a good steak that's like deep fried all the way around, gets a perfect kind of crust all the way
+
+[24:54] around it. But, um, if your oil is even a little bit bad, it's no no good at all. Um, anyways. Robert's listening his reasons. He says, it's messy. What do I do with the oil? Dangerous kids around, expensive. I'm lazy. Wife won't go for it. Those are all good reasons. fair. Do you remember, uh, do you remember when Lucy threatened uh, Lionel in, I think it was the, the Peanuts the Christmas special, when he's like,
+
+[25:24] why, you know, why should I listen to what you say? And she goes, I'll give you 5 reasons and puts up her fist and he goes, those are good reasons. Remember that? Love that. Dave Peter just said he got you a middle seat on your flight to El Paso. there anything you're doing in El Paso that you can tell people about? I don't know what I'm doing in El Paso. I'm going to El Paso pretty soon. Middle seed, that's brutal. What? Middle seed. brutal. It's a it's a fun fact that anyone who works with me anytime anytime people want to send me somewhere, they like to put me in the middle seat in the back of the airplane, on
+
+[26:00] the seat that doesn't recline, you know that one seat on the airplane that doesn't recline? They'd like me to be in the middle in the back, and if they were able to, they would always organize it for rough weather flights.
+
+[26:09] They can't, but they always would if they could send me through a cell of thunderstorms. Why do you think that is? People hate me. Like, it turns out Nastasia once booked me on, I still told the story before on the air, but Nastasia sent me on Spirit Airlines,
+
+[26:27] right, when somebody else was paying. When somebody else was paying, they're like, yeah, just book your flight, whatever you want. She could have flown me 1st class on like a real airline. Like, you know what I mean? It wouldn't have mattered. They wouldn't have blinked. She spent, she sent me spirit back when like, and I sat next to a woman who had a fake service dog that was like
+
+[26:50] all, like, I was like, what the hell? Like, spirit's the one where they... How do you know it was fake? Because she told me. Oh, she told you. She's like, you just say it's a service dog, and if they argue, you sue him. I'm like all right. And the dog and the dog run to take your seat? Dog, yeah, I was like, I was like, why am I here? Why does this exist? And the only reason she did. If Nastasia had been going with me on that trip, which she was supposed to, we would have had nice flights. We would have had nice flights. She's like, I don't know why. I don't know why I got that flight. Because you hate me. No that was a real dumb move. Okay. Uh, we have a question in from Gordon. I've heard Dave talk glowingly about squid-based Japanese fish
+
+[27:33] sauce, Ishiri. all squid-based. Some of the Ishiris that are, they're all from Ishikawa. Some are mackerel based, but the one that I happen to like is not just squid, but they use the squid bodies. It's the squid guts and the squid blood, and it's delicious. Anyway, I've heard him talk about it. I sharing many times on the podcast. I've been trying to find a way to buy it and I am stumped. Dave, is there any way for me to get my hands on this stuff? I'm a regular Joe consumer, not a restaurant or slash business in the US, Seattle. Thanks. Okay. So, um, there is a store and I have not tasted this one. But there's a Japanese fish sauce. I don't know what it's made out of. It's not one that I've tried, but it's a Japanese style fish sauce, uh, that the Corti Brothers, uh, C-O-R-T-I Brothers.com. They sell it. They call it Shaturu, S-H-O-T-T-U-R-U, but I've never tried it, so I can't really say much about it. I will say that the company that used to bring in the two, my 2 favorite Japanese fish sauces. The one is Ishiri, which is fantastic. Although I've tried some Ashiri's that I didn't like as much. So, you know, this particular one. I don't even know if they carry anymore. They carry one that looks similar to it. Um, and the other my other favorite fish sauce is is IU, uh, AYU, which is a Japanese freshwater fish, um, typically served like, you know, grilled on skewers to look like it's swimming. We had that when we were in Japan. That fish sauce is incredibly delicious. Um, It's mutual trading company. Now, there's a New York mutual trading company. There's they have branches all over the country. There's a New York mutual trading company that has a, um,
+
+[29:09] that has a uh, a showroom here in New York. I call them and they don't have stock on the IU and they don't have a PO in for
+
+[29:18] it and they're out of Ishiri now and they're not going to get it back in until April. However, the Los Angeles, uh, one, the Los Angeles Mutual Trading uh, company. They might have it, because I asked, and the woman said that they have entirely different systems, and so they might have it in stock. So I didn't have a chance to call them because I was on my way out and they were just opening as I was leaving the house. you know, because I'm on New York time there in LA time. So I would call Los Angeles Mutual Trading. They have a showroom in Los Angeles, so they might be willing to send it to the showroom and then ship it to you from
+
+[29:53] there. But just so you know, the IU fish sauce, which I highly, highly, highly recommend. Their stock number on that is 1604, and the Ishiri, which looks similar to the one that they used to carry, but might not be the exact brand. I mean, I can't read any congee on it, is item number 20340, uh, on the mutual trading company. But check the LA branch and they might ship it to Seattle out of their Los Angeles showroom. Anyway. Um, even you like those fish sauces. They tasted good. They're good. Um, okay. We have a call, a question in from UM. I'm assuming that's UM and not UM, right? That'd be amazing name. What's your name? Right? That'd be awesome. Towards the end of last week's cooking issues, uh, was 2 weeks ago now. Dave started talking about collagen and meat texture. I find this topic fascinating. I would like to add my vote to have him speak more on the topic. I, of course, want to hear more about the new bar, seeing as Booker and Dax was my favorite bar, and I felt dejected and alone since it closed. Thanks for the show, UM. Well, uh, they, we're in the same place with that, with the dang bar, figuring out a new place to open. I never thought, I knew it was hard to find a space in New York City, you know, in the, in the area that I want to, but I didn't know kind of how hard it was going to be. Like it's frustrating that you literally have people who are willing to pay for something and
+
+[31:16] no space to put it into. It's so frustrating. New York is such a pain in the butt. Maybe you should not look outside of East Village. Like where? I don't know. Like where? What neighborhood would you go to for a bar? Only Hell's Kitchen. Oh yeah, like this is not a Hell's Kitchen kind of a bar. Nastasia frequents a bar called the gaff. The gaff. The gaff. Sounds like a college bar. you would be right It is except for there's no college students in that area. So what it is, is reaching recent college grads. Or really old ones that wish they were still in college. Wow, that's rough. It's not a finance pro bar, though, right? Very often. You used to. I used to a lot. But it's not a finance bro ball. No, no. Losers. Those are my favorite kind of bars. You ever go to my old bar, the Holland? No. You got to go... I want to know whether I want to know whether it's still good. It's frightening to look into the Holland. Super frightening, but super friendly. at least, you know, was a decade ago when I used to go decade and a half now. Anyway, so we're looking we're looking for that. As for Collagen, I mentioned it briefly, and I'm going to mention it in regards to another question that we have, but I've been doing a lot of research
+
+[32:22] on muscle structure, texture and taste for the upcoming book. And, um, so, and I think I mentioned this briefly on the air a couple weeks ago, is that, um, everyone always says, oh, the collagen and meat is what makes it tough, right?
+
+[32:40] You've heard that a 1000000 times, stars, right? Yeah. But, you know, kind of, if you don't think about it, you're thinking more about like connected tissue you can see, aren't you?
+
+[32:48] Most of the times, does? Yeah. But it's not that at all. It's like every muscle has 3 basic layers of connected tissue. They have the silver skin, which goes around the whole muscle and that you take off, right? Then they have the connective tissue that goes around each individual muscle fiber, right? And both of those things are pretty constant. The one, because you take it off, and the other one, because like different muscle fibers,
+
+[33:15] they, you know, the amount of connected tissue around the individual
+
+[33:19] fibers varies, but doesn't vary, and the cross-links in it vary, but don't vary that much as much from muscle to
+
+[33:27] muscle. What does vary quite a bit is that is the intermediate kind of connector tissue, which is around what's called, I don't know how it's pronounced, but I'm going to say the
+
+[33:36] paramecium, right? And so that's the individual bundles. What? Paramesium. Now paramecium is the protozoan animal. And paramecium, although I assume that because it's myofibrile is the muscle thing. I see it's myo, like myoscin, like muscle, but it's like, um, so the paramecium is the, is the connected tissue that goes around uh, the bundles of muscle fibers. And so when you cut across a piece of meat and you look at it and it looks like little columns, you know what I'm talking about styles, right? The grain, it's the actual connective tissue that surrounds that grain. And that connective tissue, that collagen is extremely variant between different muscle types, right? And so you have very weak, uh, slash, you know, lower amounts of total, um, uh,
+
+[34:28] paramysial collagen, and let's say a tender piece of meat versus a a non-tender,
+
+[34:33] uh, you know, piece of meat. And so it's breaking down that collagen, which is important. And so, part of what I'm going to be looking at when I'm doing the book is, um, kind of different ways to mitigate the effect of, um, the, uh,
+
+[34:51] parameceum's uh, collagen on it. And that's why I said before, that while, like a lot of people's studies on the effects of salting or of marination or of various different things, um, take into account, uh, some effects, like for instance, if you're doing studies for marination or salting on chicken breast, chicken breast has a very
+
+[35:12] different, um, structure for the, you know, the, um, the intramuscular connective tissue than does uh, chuck meat. And so what I want to look at is Ken, and I've always been an advocate, like I said, a couple weeks ago for not salting meat, uh, if it's
+
+[35:29] going to be eaten a, eaten like a steak, and be cooked for a long time because of the firm texture. But this might all get overridden because most of my tests, all of my tests were on relatively tender cuts of meat. And so what I want to look at is the effect of marination and salt penetration on meats that have very large amounts of, um, uh, I don't know how
+
+[35:52] you call, collagen in the paramiceum, because maybe if you break those down in the larger grain things, you can actually have a larger effect on those pieces of meat, then you would in something that has, uh, like a finer structure
+
+[36:05] of uh, muscle bundles. Anyway, so that's what I'm looking at in collagen right now, but I have no results to report back. But I better soon, or my editor is going to tear my freaking head off. I have to finish with all of my research soon. So I'm doing these like parallel researches, Nastasia, on one on temperatures and techniques in terms of with my physics
+
+[36:25] modeling and then on marination salting structure and collagen structure on the
+
+[36:30] other. So I'm working on those 2 kind of things simultaneously, but they better in a couple
+
+[36:33] of months, end up in a book where I'm hosed. Hosed, people, hosed. Also on the subject, the people are asking all questions about stuff I'm researching, which is lucky. Eric writes it about grad fed beef. I recently bought a quarter share of grass fed beef from a local rancher. Should have bought it from Hearst Ranch, grass fed, grass fed beef abattoir. Unfortunately, it tastes very strongly of that gamey off flavor that grass fed
+
+[36:57] bees so often, seems to have vegan face, Nastasi. You haven't made your vegan face. Oh my god. I hate to go off in a tangent, but I love going off in tangent. You know this. So for some reason, I was, I don't know why. I think it was because of something that, uh, I saw on the news this morning, uh, you know, morning Joe was on, he started talking about Lenin. I don't know why. And they say, so I went on Wikipedia for a minute. I did, you know, you know, every couple of years, you have to re-up yourself on knowledge that you used to have. So someone's like Lenin. I, okay, I've forgotten most of this stuff I know about Lenin. So I did a quick Wikipedia on them. And for those of you that want to know what it's like. I forget her name. I can't believe, look it up, Nastasia, Lenin's wife. Lennon's wife. So Lenon's wife. I looked her up and the face that this lady has in every single picture is Nastasia's standard face when she's looking at you. Like, it's just her standard, not like her facial features, but just the look in the mouth and the
+
+[38:00] eyes is if you want to know what it's like to have Nastasia sitting across the table while you're trying to explain
+
+[38:06] something or while you're trying to like figure out what's going on in life. That's the look. That's the look. What's her name? Nadesh, Nadesh, Krupskaya. Yeah? Yeah. Classic right? Yeah. That look on her face. Oh my god. Like, that's... That one she's smiling, though. If you saw the picture, the nostasia was showing me and said that that she's smiling. It's like, there's one picture I saw of her with Lenin where she has like a pissed off smile on her face, kind of. But like, like some of the pictures that she has, like that's, it's like her suppressed vegan face, I think. Anyways. Hey Dave, actually, before we get to the question, you want to take a quick break? I'm sure we'll take a quick break, come back with more cooking issues.
+
+[38:57] Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you millhole grange, you get all three parts, the brand, the germ, and the endosperm, the brand, or the rough
+
+[39:13] age, makes up about 14% of the whole grain. It's the outer skin of the edible kernel. It contains large amounts of B vitamins, some protein, trace minerals, phytochemicals, but most
+
+[39:23] importantly, dietary fiber. The germ is only about 2.5% of the kernel. It's actually the sprouting section of the seed. What's gonna grow into a plant? It's usually separated during milling process because it contains most of the fat and therefore has a shorter shelf life. The end of sperm is the main energy storage unit of the sea. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain, about 83%. And it's the main source that's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the brand and just have the white
+
+[39:57] endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're milling with whole grains, but when you mill whole grains, you also get the brand, which is the kind of rough edge and gives
+
+[40:16] that, that's what gives that kind of color to it, also gives you extra fiber that helps you to be regular, and you also get the
+
+[40:22] germ, which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all like from whole grains.
+
+[40:26] Learn more at bobsredmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[41:04] gets you cooking faster and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[41:08] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[41:23] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Holy Houstina, what a long break. will not shut up. That man will not shut up. Yeah, he's got a lot of opinions. God, a guy will not be. Hey, stop, speaking of opinions. What do you think of the word wheat germ? I think it's okay. Because it's delicious, right? But like normally you would hate it. It's just you're, you're, you're okay with it just because we germ happens to be good. Like, I love adding wheat germ to pancakes, muffins and all that stuff. Remember, I keep it in the fridge, though. That stuff goes rancid. Do you buy the big, you don't buy it? you buy it? I always have it. I use it a lot though. If you're not going to use it a lot. You probably get the smaller container. I like that stuff. Oh, before I forget, Jeff over at Copperworks sent us to the show a couple weeks back. I took it home. So, you know, Nastasia and Dave never got to try it. But, uh, Copperworks makes this, um, I think it's called, uh, it's their whiskey. It's all American malt. It's like they, they basically, I looked them up on the, and Jeff from there sent it. I looked them up on the internet. And, uh, I think this, the story and they'll, hopefully, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, is they actually brew a good tasting beer.
+
+[42:41] So not like, uh, like, uh, distiller's water, stiller's beer, like a good tasting, like malt, like beverage, and then distill that. Uh, and then age it. And so he sent us a bottle of that stuff, batch number two. That stuff is delicious. The stuff is delicious. I loved it. And, uh, my wife loved it, and so we we were drinking it, and then I wanted to get a bottle for my stepfather, because it was his birthday, and, but it turns out that they don't ship to, they don't ship to New York. So how did we get it? So I gave, I gave my stepfather the, the bottle that we had drunk through, like a quarter of, and I was like, sorry, went, wap. you're gonna like it. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy a bottle because you, anyone who lives around New York can get it, right? You can online order it to ship to New Jersey, Connecticut, or Pennsylvania, but whatever. What? What going on with us? The waitress's outfit. Yeah, it's whatever. We're not going to comment on people's outfits unless it's Santa's little hipster. Yeah, this isn't the Oscars coming out. Yeah, oh my god. Anyway, so thanks so much, guys. Thanks, Jeff, the Copperworks, you make a delicious product. And not standard American whiskey tasting, which is what I like. Like they're not doing just another riff on a standard American product. You know what I mean? Yep. It's like not just another bourbon or, you know, it's good or a fake or a, you know, another fake scotch or whatever. It's good. Not that you people, other people are making fixed cuts. not what I meant. You know what I mean? I think it's a it's an excellent product. That's not who's making that face again. Making that shut up face, that Lenin's wife face. What her name? Too hard to say. You're like, you're like, half Russia, Ukrainian. I don't remember the name. The only the only words you can say are like prostitute. That's the only... And and feminine hygiene products. You know all the words for feminine hygiene products in Russian. Yes. and anyway. So, um, back to the question. So, if you remember, back before the break. Eric, Eric with a K, by the way, bought a quarter share of
+
+[44:40] grass fed beef and it has an off flavor that he's having a tough time getting rid
+
+[44:45] of. So is there any treatment I can apply to the beef to eliminate or reduce that taste. I've tried heavily seasoned recipes like chili, but still failed to mass the taste. I've got a freezer full of beef out here. So I'd love to be able to enjoy it. Can't wait for the spins all, Eric. Okay, what I need to know from you, to fully answer this question is what muscle cuts you have cooked and what you have so
+
+[45:06] far? So the bad news is, um, The bad news is, is that game flavors and
+
+[45:14] off flavors in commercially raised meats. So typically, they vary animal to animals. So a particular animal, like might have a much higher score for off-flavor or gamey flavor than other animals,
+
+[45:28] uh, that are raised in exactly the same way in exactly the same
+
+[45:33] uh, pastures. And so it's really hard to kind of know. Now, I also need to know exactly what you mean by gamey, right? So a lot of people, what they associate gaming flavor with is kind of a livery taste, right? And that livery taste is often associated. The literature, by the way, if you've read it, which I don't recommend because it's all over the place. Like, you know, no one seems to agree. And it's, it's very
+
+[45:58] confusing, and there's also like 100s and 100s and 100s of pages on it, uh, because people uh, care about it. But the only answer in terms of choosing meats is that you can't really know from
+
+[46:08] grass fed or not whether or not it's going to have a gamey or a liver flavor. It's just animal, it's animal to animal. There are effects, right? Age of the animal. The older an animal is, the more likely it is to have a liver flavor, an
+
+[46:22] off-flavor, gaming flavor. Certain diets can increase the range, but really you're kind of in a crapshoot animal animal. But the good news, maybe for you, is that it also depends on the exact muscle you're using. So, uh, for instance, flat iron steak, which is a muscle in the chuck uh, portion. The flat iron and Chuck in general has a higher proportion of muscles that might have that defect, but a muscle, other muscles in the
+
+[46:51] truck might not have it. So you might have just been unlucky, and cooked a couple of the muscles. For instance, the flat iron, the infrastinatus that have a higher gamey livery off flavor than other muscles, and the rest of your muscles might be better. Um, I've had it happen also, although I don't think there's been a lot of study on it, but I don't
+
+[47:11] know, eye of round, I've had that happen before. I don't know which muscles you have, what muscles you have left, which ones you've already cooked. So knowledge of which muscles you use might, A, make you feel a little bit better about the muscles you have left. Like, I don't know. I don't know whether you're a cook the, cook the cheaper ones 1st so you have the fancy ones for later, or if you're a cook the fancy ones now, so you have the cheaper ones later. I just don't know I don't know how you're doing. Now, um, once you, you know, you're in
+
+[47:39] this situation where you already have a cow that has a known kind of, and I'm assuming it's like livery, gamey flavor, all that I don't know. See, the interesting thing about grass fed animals is that, you know how stars, how everyone says, and I've mentioned this on a show too, that everyone says the
+
+[47:52] flavor. I said it 1000000s of times, the flavor of the animals in the fat, right? And so what people think most of the time, at least me, is that they mean it's in the marbling,
+
+[48:01] right? And so you're going to have less meat flavor and a less marbled piece of meat, theoretically, right? Because it has less fat in it. It turns out that the fat, fat includes is very, very important, but it's a lot of the flavor isn't, it doesn't have to do
+
+[48:16] with, those kind of lipids that you see is marbling, but rather the lipids that are actually in the cell membranes of the individual cells, because those are the, the, the poofas, the
+
+[48:26] polyunsaturated fatty acids, that tend to give a lot of the flavor characteristics to a particular animal or not, right?
+
+[48:33] And so, um, the, you know, the, the, the short story is, is that, yes, that those characteristic flavors can be different in grass fed and maybe you don't like those, but they're also variant depending on exactly what they were eating.
+
+[48:47] So you can't just make a categorical statement on grassfit versus not. Now, as to your actual question, which I have not answered yet, how do I get rid of that,
+
+[48:56] the short answer is, I don't know. But I'm wondering, and I started looking into it, but I haven't been able to run any tests, and if you have a lot of it, I would recommend, um, you know, some some basic
+
+[49:07] tests, I would think that, um, if these are oxidation, um,
+
+[49:12] some people seem to think that some of these reactions can be oxidation reactions.
+
+[49:17] Um, and so perhaps an antioxidant might help. Perhaps you might be able to shift these aromas by shifting these things to a more acidic
+
+[49:27] environment. So actually cooking them or marinating them prior to cooking them in an acidic environment. Like a lot of game people, they recommend vinegar soaks and or buttermilk soaks, which are acidic. And so like if the, if the, you know, the old uh, wives tales are to take
+
+[49:42] gamey meets and to do an initial, like, leech uh, of those flavors, either a lot of people do like a quick boil, but I think that's mainly to get rid of rotten
+
+[49:50] parts uh, or, you know, overly developed parts. Um, but like in acids, maybe an acid might help. So I'd look into that, although I don't really understand the mechanism of
+
+[50:01] it, that seems to be what people do over the years to try to mitigate the effect of gaminess.
+
+[50:05] Okay. Nastasi's like, you've said enough. Check. should do one more. Got time for one more quick one. One. One. One. Oh, man. But I have I have Melissa, who has a goat cheese question, which I'm interested in, but maybe I'll talk about that next
+
+[50:24] time. She has a problem with goat cheeses because they kind of harsher palate. I don't have a problem with goat cheeses. I have a problem with other, I'll do this one real quick, but I have some egg questions I got to get to too. Oh, screw the eggs. They all my friends. Well, see how Nastasia treats her friends. You see it, people? But I had a lot of good stuff to say about days. Anyway, we'll do Melissa real quick. Melissa from Hamilton, Ontario. Hello, Dave, Nastasia, and Dave. I enjoy foods of all sorts and generally do not have issues when it comes to trying new things. Goat cheese, however, is the main exception. No matter how hard I try. I can't help have a near visceral reaction whenever I eat goat cheese. No matter the quality or supposed goat cheesiness. Not only does it taste awful, but it blows out my palate for an extended period of time. My question is, do you have any idea why this is happening or what would be causing it? Thanks, love the show, Melissa from Hamilton, Ontario. Uh, short answer, no, but I will say this. Um, People sometimes have, um, reactions to specific, I mean, the fact the matter is, is that there are things, uh, you know, many things, fatty acids, for instance, that are different in goat milk than in other
+
+[51:30] milks. And I'll relate to you a similar experience. And so I've come to recognize specific things that affect my palate. So aged, um, full fat cheese is undergo uh, lipid oxidation, and some of those lipid oxidation products, right, uh, affect my palate like in a pretty hardcore way.
+
+[51:51] They make... Does this have new stars, like taste buds pop? You know what I mean? like they'll hurt and like pop out. Yeah. So, like uh, aged full fat cheeses, do that to my uh, taste buds. I ate them anyway because they're incredibly delicious. But they literally blow out my palate, i.e. my taste buds pop out and
+
+[52:10] like I'm in pain, but I eat it anyway. And so like, For me, if someone says, is this a full fat cheese and ate cheese or
+
+[52:18] not? I can eat it and be like, that's full fat cheese? I know because I'm in pain. You know what I mean? I'm eating it anyway. So, like, it's very possible that there is some sort of, um, product in there that you react to, uh, and you shouldn't be embarrassed. You know what? Like, I hate melon. You don't have to like go cheese, right, Stas? Yeah. I mean, if you're generally, I tell my kids, I'm like, you're allowed to have like one or 2 things that you don't like. But the problem is, is when they don't like everything. You know what I mean? And it sounds like you just don't like it. You know what I mean? That's cool. Like if you if you don't like something. I have, you know, I think everyone's problem with people not liking things is when they don't like it for mental reasons.
+
+[52:55] You know what I mean? is when you, like, the theory of, bothers you, but it doesn't sound like the theory of goat cheese bothers you. It sounds like actual goat cheese bothers you. In which case, you're clear of that. What do you think, Dave? Yeah, go with your gut. Yeah. All right. So I had some questions on eggs, which I'm not going to get to about like freshness of eggs and then why we refrigerate them versus not. And I had a huge rant I was going to go off onto on eggs that we don't have the time for. Do we have even a little bit left? No, because I know eggs are like your thing. No, not for that, but if Scott wrote in about a slushing machine. Do I have time for a quick selection machine question? All right, so, Scott, next week I'll talk to you about bricks and slushy machine, but I'll give you a
+
+[53:34] short short, I'll give you the short of it now on the way out. He had a question he didn't want to ruin his slushy machine. You want your slushy cocktails if you want to do bar style and not like crappy daiquiri, which are only like 7%
+
+[53:46] alcohol. When I'm doing them, they're between 14 and 15% alcohol. Uh, 85 grams per liter of sugar and 0.6 to 0.9% acidity.
+
+[53:57] Boom, boo, yeah. use those as a ratio. We'll talk more about it. Next time on cooking issues.
+
+[54:09] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[54:45] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emergent circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage World. Broadcasting
+
+[0:17] over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:27] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:39] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245
+
+[0:49] at Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual, Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. how you doing Stas? I like love the fact that there's people out there who like imagine like why you are the hammer and all they need to do now is look at Lennon's wife's
+
+[1:06] picture and they know. Did you see someone rode in and said that we should just make t-shirts with Lenin's wife's photo? Yeah, we made t-shirts and you people don't buy them. You people. What was her name again? Lenon's wife? No one can remember because if Nasassi can't remember, then how am I supposed to remember? Like, Nastasia is like half Russo, Ukrainian. Like, you know, a potent self-hating mix there. And yeah, potent. And, of course, as usual, we got Dave in the booth. How you doing? Good, how are you? Doing all right. So am I supposed to? I have a piece of paper on our desk. And it says pre-roll ad, but since we've already rolled, perhaps I can
+
+[1:41] post pre-roll. You want to post pre-roll this? Yeah, yeah, that's how we do. While you're listening to the post pre-roll, call in all of your questions, cooking or not. You know, preferably cooking related questions. 2718497. Wait, 718-4972128. that right? Yeah, that's it. 718-497-2128. It's like, I don't even actually think about it. It's almost like, you know, it just kind of like pops out. What, a collar? Yeah, Heritage radio network. Oh, nice. All right. Well I'll do the pre-roller figuring that out. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes,
+
+[2:17] tips and tricks. blog.modernistpantry.com All right, call her, you're on the air. I think. Do we lose them, Dave? Caller. Caller, you're on the air. Call her. Hey, how you doing? Hey, uh, so I am a cook uh, in uh, New Orleans and I uh, recently did a uh, pop-up with ramen, um, and the issue that I had
+
+[2:42] is, uh, so I, I followed the recipe, uh, basically of uh, Ivan Ramen's book, right? And uh, uh, flowered the noodles with cornstarch. Um, but after doing like a bunch of batches, uh, on the sides of the, like the wire basket, the cornstarch started to build up and like form
+
+[3:03] this like, you know, paste. Yeah, I bet it would. Uh, I was wondering if you had any, like, suggestions on uh, how to avoid that. Well, okay, so give me the exact, give me the exact procedure. You're taking, like, the new, what, like, and you're dusting them. What's the point, again, of dusting them in the cornstarch, just give them a little bit of a, like, gluey outside? Or is it just a separation thing? So I'm handmaking the noodles? and I don't want them to stick because if I don't use any cornstarch and they stick. And so when I go to break them up in the water with chopsticks, they sort of crumble into short little pieces. Yeah, yes. Uh, and so the cornstarch helps to avoid that problem, but then, you know, once I do a bunch of batches that, you know,
+
+[3:46] sticks to the wire uh, basket. How much, uh, kind of how much par dehydration do they go through before they, uh, they, uh, before you boil them? How much what? How much like, how long have they been sitting out like before you boil? In other words, like, are they dried sufficiently where you could sit there and do like a pre-tap on like a, on like a drying rack where you could just put your, like, the load on a drying rack and go,
+
+[4:07] pap, pap, pap, on a sheet tray and like knock off the excess cornstarch? Or do you already do that or what? might be able to do that. Yeah, so I just made them day off so that they'd be fresh. Um, so they basically just sat, you know, in the cornstarch so I dusted them in. Right. So, I mean, the other issue is, is that, like, if you're getting buildup on the basket, like, how are you loading? Are you loading direct into the water? Are you loading into baskets and dropping baskets? Directly into the water? Yeah, okay. So what you're getting is just straight boil off, building up on the sides of the baskets. What about on the external sides of the pot? What are you cooking in? What are you doing? You don't have a pasta maker, right? I mean, like a pasta a pasta boiler? making it in a pasta maker, and then, um, dusting them with cornstarch, and then... No, no, I meant I meant to cooking. You don't have like a pasta, you're not using like a modified pasta deep fryer. You know what I'm talking about? those pasta boilers? Uh, no, it's just a, it's just like uh, it's a, um, spot with salt of water. Yeah, yeah. So like, uh, and how often are you skimming the stuff off the top? Uh, not very often. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, like, like, once you have like free cornstarch in the system, like, the stuff's going to like,
+
+[5:23] like, boil around, because remember, like, it, like, uh, it's going to, it's
+
+[5:28] going to do that. So I would try to knock off the stuff on the outside, right? And I would skim like fairly often. So, like, like, let's say you, like, normally, not normally, but if you're fortunate enough to have an actual, like, pasta cooker, right? It's got like a water in and then like a, like a drain off so that you can take the scum off the top. like basically automatically destarchies the water because your
+
+[5:52] water is always going to get starchier and starchier and starchier. You know what I mean? Like as you go. And so, um, and I've never owned one. I've used my regular deep fryer as a pasta cooker before, but
+
+[6:05] it doesn't have like any of the fancy stuff. I've never owned a real one You ever used this last? you ever seen, like Marqu used to have one of the, does he, does he have those now? Did he have like the fancy like, like, does he have the fat, fancy ones that look like deep fryers for the pasta boiling? Uh, not now. But they're going to? Is that the way they're going to do it or how are they finishing? Of course. Oh, custom fancy? We're talking about pasta flyer, Mark Ladner's new venture. When's that opening size? Two weeks. Two weeks. Uh, so you gonna you gonna invite me to anything? Any opening? All right. We'll talk about it on the air. So, like, I would say, I would skim more often. I would try to knock the cornstarch off. The problem is, is that I, there's very few things I hate worse than trying to
+
+[6:46] get, um, cooked starch off of, uh, off of fry baskets. Yeah, it's a painful process. Oh yeah, that's definitely something that you want to hire somebody else to do if you can. Like, you know what I mean? I'm trying to think if there's anything else. Like any free starch like that is going to, uh, is going to do that. That's why I was asking kind of, um, like what level of dryness they are when they when they get out. Like, I know, like, I do the same thing. If you can keep them, if you can keep the noodles separated for even a couple of minutes before they go
+
+[7:19] into like larger things. Like, I can't picture your layout. You can use less stuff to coat them. You know what I mean? Like the faster they have to touch each other. The, you know, the more of a, of insurance you need on the outside. But then, remember, like, what, when you put the coating on the outside, like, the coating is absorbing some of the moisture from the outside of the pasta, almost acting like an instant dehydration on the, on the surface of
+
+[7:43] the, of the noodle. So like after, you know, even like 30 minutes, you should be able to like wrap a
+
+[7:50] tap, tap, like prior to service to try to knock stuff off of it. And then, you know, because like, you know, I know people like fresh pasta makers, some pasta makers, for instance, use cornstarch on larger, not cornstarch,
+
+[8:01] corn meal on larger things like ravioli. And like when they sell them to you, they're swimming in freaking, you know, cornmeal. And so then, you know, it's a question of always getting it off. But like, how are you storing it? Are you storing them in, like, are you are you pre-portioning them and then storing them in, like, in, like, fish tubs? Like, what are you doing? Right, just, uh, yeah, I had them pre-portioned, uh, just, yeah,
+
+[8:25] an Alexa. Are you getting any clumping problems at all now? Uh, no, not, not as far as like, uh, I guess, you know, maybe it's like too much cornstarch, but there's no clumping issue. Yeah. Well, so like the good news is you have no clumping issues. So what I would do is just keep dialing it back until you start having
+
+[8:42] issues. And the more you dial back the cornstarch and the finish thing, like the less often you're going to have to clean that disgusting stuff off the outside of the baskets.
+
+[8:53] I don't know if there's anything that'll just straight eat that. Like, you know, like, you know, I tend not to keep around the, um, around my place, like tons of super caustic things, but like I
+
+[9:04] know like at the French culinary, like at night, like those guys would just dip everything in like hyper
+
+[9:09] disgusting caustic chemicals to like burn everything off of everything. I'm not saying I recommend that because I don't. And also, like, it's not efficient to, like, self-clean that stuff off of things because you soak up a lot of
+
+[9:20] energy. And, like, I've discovered that aluminum pans are ruined by self-cleaning.
+
+[9:25] Did you know that? Uh, no, I didn't know that. Yeah. You throw an aluminum, like a sheet pan, into a uh, into a self-cleaning oven and it just wipes the temper. It cleans it because, like, I hate cleaning. I hate cleaning everything, but, like, I super hate cleaning. A couple things I hate cleaning are fryer baskets. I hate them and I hate cleaning off. I hate cleaning off like sheet trays that have had like oily crap baked into
+
+[9:50] them like over the course of a whole like, you know, night. hate it. And so, like, I always thought, well, maybe I can just burn that. And, you know, I don't know if your fry baskets have the rubber on them, but if you have the ones that don't have rubber,
+
+[10:00] like theoretically, you can self-clean. I dont know what it'll do to the chrome coating on it, but if it's chrome coated as opposed to, you know how some are actually, like they're supposed to all be stainless steel, but some of them aren't really. Do you ever notice that? Like some of them aren't really. Yeah, they have the ones I have I have the rubber things on the handles. Yeah, yeah. So you can't do any of that stuff anyway, but yeah, I don't know whether like, uh, I don't know whether some sort of hardcore oven cleaner will get that stuff off because that stuff's more effective, I think, on fats and
+
+[10:26] proteins, um, than on starch. I don't know. Anyway. Are there any other like starches that might work any better? They're all going to clump up on you. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a, you know, it depends on what you're gonna, you know, the good thing, good news about cornstarch, she has to say it's freaking cheap. You know what I mean? I mean, if you want to, if you want to stay like wheat on wheat crime, you can use pure
+
+[10:49] weed starch. You know what I mean? And that way, you know, you're, you know, you only have one grain in that. And so, you know, one less allergy to worry about. But, um, you know, it depends. You're not looking for functionality, right? Like you're not, it's not a functional aspect of the noodle. Like you're not looking for it to have like a like a velveted texture on the outside, right? It's just, it's just like, uh, yeah, some people were complaining that, uh, you know, it was kind of
+
+[11:18] gummy, and then I checked the thing, and sure enough, you know, it was kicked on, man. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like you, like, uh, I mean, just, I would just try to use less of it. I don't think any other particular starch is gonna change the, the, because it's not, you're not looking for a particular quality of the starch. Like, if you want to starch, like, I really like potato starch a lot, but that's in situations where, like, I'm frying or crisping things up and I want the specific,
+
+[11:42] like, swelling capacity of potato starch. You don't care. You know what I mean? just trying to separate stuff off. So, you know, if you can afford the extra costs, try weed starch. That way, it's just one less thing to worry about. But cornstarch is nice and cheap. Okay. Don't you hate the way cornstarch feels? Yeah, right, Nastasia hates. I hate the way cornstarch feels that squeaky feel. It doesn't bother you? It bothers me. The noise that cornstarch makes when you're, when you're taking it out, when you lift it out of the thing and you squeeze the box and you squeeze that cornstarch box, that freaking
+
+[12:11] noise, man, I hate that noise. Man. All right. Well, good luck with it. Let us know how it works out. Alright, thank you. Clumping issues. Wasn't that the working title for this show? It was years ago. We were like, but, you know, then it's not just clumping. It not the only thing we're worried about. We're worried about, you know, anti-clumping. So Nastasia, you'll enjoy this. On the way here, I was listening to all, like not listening. My iPhone decided to play for me all the stuff that I listened to that you hate. Like, like, Kenny Rogers, you hate it when Kenny Rogers comes on. I don't like Kenny Rogers. No, because you hate my reaction to it. Yeah. Like Cowder, the County came on. You hate when I talk about coward of the county. And then Smokey Robinson came on and you hate when I listen to Smokey Robinson because I like his lyrics. It's like all the stuff that you hate. I like the music. I hate listening it to it with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's more me you hate than the music. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah, that's about right. You want take another call? Uh, yeah, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, it's Matt calling for Mystic again. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. I just wanted to wait, you were talking about sort of your, the cookbook,
+
+[13:16] both of the finishing steps last week. And, uh, and I wanted to weigh in and just say that I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on, like, the, uh, the best, the best way is to finish, uh, low term cooked
+
+[13:29] product, because I've had a circulator for a couple years now, and some things I get, uh, really great results
+
+[13:35] with, uh, and then sometimes I have sort of a disappointing results. Right. I mean, well, it's yeah, it's a big... I mean, it's what I'm actually working on right now a lot, like on Sunday. I ran a bunch of tests, and I'm trying to do, like, a lot of, like, tests without
+
+[13:53] the sears all, just, like, so I can have things for people to do, like, without the sears
+
+[13:57] all or without anything that's hardcore. I'm trying to like de-hardcore everything, uh, to see whether I can get good, um, good results, but
+
+[14:05] like low temperature cooking almost always fails in the finishing step. don't you think? I think that's right. Because especially with, like, steaks, I find, and you were talking about sort of dropping down the temperature before you do
+
+[14:17] the finishing tip. Yep. And that sort of, uh, sort of clarified things in my mind because I think that, sort of where I was falling sure. Yeah, so now what I've been doing. So I've been testing recently. Now, a lot depends on, on, like, let's say you were going to pan frame. This is what I've been testing recently. Let's say you're going to pan finish the steak, okay? Uh, and let's say you're going to, uh, you choose like, I'm
+
+[14:41] gonna do, see, here's the thing. If you pre-seer, now this is the argument that I have all the time with people. Um, if you pre-sear the meat versus post-sear the meat. Now, or both. I usually recommend both, and other people, you know, like Kenji, for instance, is like it doesn't matter, but here's the thing. It does matter because the, if you do not
+
+[15:03] pre-seer your meat, then you're gonna have to steer it much longer afterwards to get the same level of crust.
+
+[15:10] So then the question that I have to whoever's making the, you know, the steak is what level of crust do you want? If you're a crust fiend, if you need like a real thick, heavy char on the outside of a piece of meat, well, that can really only be attained in a pan with
+
+[15:27] copious, like, you know, like a good 8th inch of oil at the bottom, you take it up to like, you know, basically
+
+[15:33] 36400 deep fried temperature, and then the trick with this is you can actually do it without making a lot of smoke.
+
+[15:40] I've been testing pan frying. And the trick is that you bring the whole pan up relatively slowly to deep fryer temperature, which is like 365 in that
+
+[15:50] rich with a layer of oil in it. Then when you put the meat into sear, you crank the hell out of it as high as it'll
+
+[15:57] go so that you maintain your heat input at that high level. Like, that's the trick, right? It doesn't actually help you to have your oil catch on fire and smoke. What you really need to do is bring it up to the temperature where it's searing and then hold it there as best as you can. Um, so anyway, so like in that kind of a regime, in order to get a good crust on a steak, you really need to
+
+[16:19] do um, 3 minutes. So you do like one. 5 flip one. 5 , do that twice, 3 minutes, and you can get a good crust. Problem is, if you do that afterwards. Um, you are going to overcook the meat, like pretty much straight up, you're going to overcook the meat. And so if you pre-sear it, you can cut down that postsear to like a minute on a side or a minute and a half on a side and you're not going to overcook the meat. And when you do a pre-seer, your meat's at fridge temperature. It's at like 5 degrees Celsius. And so there's very little overcook on a on a pre-seer. Now, you know, this is something that's been borne out
+
+[16:55] by like, you know, many, many trials that I ran back when I was cooking at the French
+
+[16:59] Culinar Institute, but I'm, you know, I'm testing it more now for kind of home people.
+
+[17:04] The problem is, is that even I don't pre-seer meat all the time because, and I probably shouldn't say this. I'm like intensely lazy and if, and you're not supposed to do this because they're not designed for it, but a lot of times I will just take the meat as it comes in the pack, right?
+
+[17:21] Because I'm buying pre-pack, cut, big steaks, like like high, like a lot of very nice steaks that are cut by, you know, high,
+
+[17:29] high-end producers of like things like the Piedmontese beef or these things
+
+[17:33] come like, you know, pre-portioned packed and the thick steaks. And I've cooked directly in those. Can't pre-sear if you don't take it out of the pack. You know what I mean? But I really shouldn't do that and I shouldn't recommend doing that. But anyway, but so I do a lot of work without the pre-serian, but pre-serian can help to not overcook on the
+
+[17:49] post seer, but my current method is to, instead of dropping the circulator 5 degrees, which is what I used to do, and letting it sit for 40 minutes, is I'd pull it directly out a couple minutes before I'm going to serve
+
+[18:01] it and I put it into a pot of running tap water. So I'll just put the pot in the sink, turn the tap water on, just turn it on enough so that it's flowing
+
+[18:10] constantly, and throw the meat into that. Depending on how long you're going to sear between 2 and 4 minutes, depending on how many times you're going to sear it, you
+
+[18:20] could take it up to 5 minutes. And that just really pushes the outside temperature of the meat down without really affecting the core very much. And then if you go and sear right away, you know, your one. 5 , one. 5 or if you need to, one. 5, one. 5, one. 5, one. You're not overcooking nearly as much in the meat, and the integrated temperature of the meat across the whole piece ends up being higher than it would have been if you had just dropped the entire piece of meat 5
+
+[18:45] degrees, if that makes sense. So like these are the kind of like finishing like things I'm trying to work on and trying to make them as easy as I can for like working at home.
+
+[18:53] But I had a fail, a couple failed experiments this weekend. I'm working on like a lot of the things I want to work on for home or like what I consider like party tricks. So like they're like, I'm going to have like an everyday section, which is going to have be like steaks, which is basically one of the things that I do like on an everyday basis.
+
+[19:12] But then more like, um, you know, when you're going to have like a large group over or for large gatherings, like if you want to do,
+
+[19:19] like if you want to do fried chicken, I actually do low temp my fried chicken ahead of time so that I can also make onion rings and
+
+[19:27] french fries without having to change the temperature to the oil constantly, right? Uh, and I can also have different sizes of chicken pieces and not worry about whether or not I'm putting in a bunch of wings with
+
+[19:38] a bunch of breasts because they're already pre-cooked. So, um, you know, there's going to be that section, but I also want like kind of like more
+
+[19:44] party party tricks like whole fish or, um, things like that. So I did a whole fish, like a £3 red
+
+[19:54] snapper, um, and trying to figure out, like, the right time temperature for it. But then I was worried about the finishing. So like normally what I would do is heat up a big vat of oil and then like set up this like incredibly
+
+[20:07] dangerous, like, um, fry tray, crank it and then do like ladle fry for like, you know, 5 minutes. And I tried to do a home version of that. And not only did it not get as crispy as I wanted. Like, I was like, I'm not going to recommend to someone at home, sit here with a ladle and ladle, like, you know, fry oil everywhere, like in
+
+[20:26] a hot kitchen because, like, A, it's going to freak a lot of people out and B,
+
+[20:31] like, someone's going to get burnt and blame me for it. You know what I mean? Like really burnt. And so, like, I'm trying to figure out, like, a good way to, like, a good way to reliably finish a whole fish. Like, that's something I'm interested in. Um, working on. Had another failed experiment where, uh, so I, I bought like just a chuck steak, you know, I'm talking about, like the thick chuck steaks where they bone out the, the, uh, the 7, they bone out the, the truck and they put it back together into a roast and
+
+[20:58] a cutting into a steak, like 22 inches thick. And then I cooked it for a day. I lucked out. I didn't get a livery flavoring one, but I wanted to get it kind of tender. Maybe when I'm in a little long, like I probably should have done it like 18 hours instead of 24
+
+[21:12] hours, and I had a deep sear on. I crusted off. But, um, Yeah, people ended up in it, but I, the thing is, I served it next to a legit ribeye, right? And people were like, the rib eye is better. I was like, oh, well, they're like, you know, I would have liked the other one had you not given me
+
+[21:28] the the ribeye, but I obviously I like the ribeye better. I was like, oh, so you can't you can't win. Like, I'm trying to win somehow, Nastasia, and you can't you can't win. So, like, I was like, oh, this giant piece of, like, Chuck is like a 3rd of the price of the ribeye. Um, and you know what? I took something, it's a 3rd of the price of the ribeye, and I maybe made it 80% as good, but that's not like the same as as good as. So I don't know. These are the kinds of things I'm trying to work out in the, in the book, like where I, where I hit and what I do. You know, one of the problems, low temping, uh, piece of meat like that, going back to collagen, which we were talking about for the past couple of shows, is that, um, in a
+
+[22:04] multimuscle piece of, uh, meat that doesn't have bones in it, you actually have, um, the, um, the outside, the silver skinny pieces that surround each muscle, you know, the epomyceum, you have that in there, and that stuff does not dissolve
+
+[22:21] well, low temp. And so it doesn't, it like feels weird. You know what I'm talking about stringy stars? Like, it's like it's cooked, it's tender, but it's like stringy. I don't know. These are things I'm working on. So yeah, finishing. Any suggestions or ideas people have. I welcome them because, you know, I gotta test them. Do you have any suggest? are you still there? Do you have any suggestions or things I should test out? I mean, I'm still here, but I don't. I mean, I think, unfortunately, I think deep frying is just, uh, beyond the bail for most people. The only thing that involves, like, a lot of oil, or, uh, you know, a lot of sort of splashing a lot of hot oil,
+
+[22:53] BM seems, uh, seems like a tall order for people. Yeah, I know, it's a shame because deep frying is such a freaking good technique because it hits all sides of the meat at once. Like, I might, yeah, you know, it's a pain. Deep frying is so, like, such a good technique, as I've said many times on the show, it,
+
+[23:14] it, like, is God's cooking technique. It's like, it's like, it's dry, it's instantaneous, very high watt density, dry-ish heat, that crisp stuff really quickly. You know what I mean? It's such a good technique, but it's such a pain for most people. So yeah, I'm trying to think of non-frying. But the other thing is like, what are you gonna do? Like, I remember years ago, I saw, you know, one of the early books that Eric Repair had come out
+
+[23:38] with. I saw him give a talk at Barnes and Noble. This is a long, long, long time ago. I don't even think I was working at the French culinary yet, or, you know, maybe I just started. And, uh, he was like, you know, someone was asking him like, um, recommendations for broiling fish, right? And he says, I don't write recipes for home people to broil fish because their
+
+[23:57] broilers suck so hard that it would make me cry to have them
+
+[24:01] boil the broil fish in their house. So he just doesn't write recipes for it. And so like anytime I'm thinking, well, I could try to like finish something in a broiler, I think back to like a crying
+
+[24:11] Eric repair. And I'm like, you know, oh, man, you know, I don't want to make I don't want to write recipes that make Eric repair cry. You know what I mean? That's right. Seems like a very nice guy. Yeah, you know, and plus, like, it, like, anytime someone's crying because I've produced something of low quality, it just makes me so sad. You know, this makes me so sad. Oh, speaking of quality, though. I mean, look, I like that he's a Walmart when I'm actually sad. But here's the, you know, the, I've been working on fish temperatures, which is another thing people can chime in on. So I've been pushing my fish temperatures consistently a little bit higher than I would have, let's say, 5 or 6 years
+
+[24:48] ago because I'm trying to get out of the polarizing range of fish cooking temperatures, which are those kind of ultra low
+
+[24:54] temperatures like in the high 40s. Um, But the problem is, is that with the exception of stripers, which I cook at a higher temperature,
+
+[25:04] like I'm cooking like this red snapper, for instance, at too low a temperature to pasteurize it. And so I have to keep all my cook steps down to under my, you know, under my window
+
+[25:17] of, um, of safety. And so it's kind of an interesting, it's an interesting situation. So if, like, you know, I cooked this snapper for an hour and a half at a temperature that's not a pasteurization temperature.
+
+[25:30] It's not a growth temperature, but it's not a pasteurization temperature either. And a lot of the fish has stayed in a kind of in a bad zone for a while. Uh, so you're hoping you can kill some of that stuff in the post-finish. This is all the stuff I'm wrestling with right now, wrestling with. You don't want to give someone an unsafe recipe unless you say, hey,
+
+[25:49] PS, this is an unsafe recipe. know what I mean? But anyway, there's always going to be someone like, why'd you give me? Why'd you give me an unsafe recipe? Because that's the way I cook it at home. You know what I mean? Stas just doesn't care. Oh. Wait, wait, so I'll work on it. If you have any suggestions call back in. You know, I was good to talk to you. Oh, we have a... Okay, cool. We have a follow-up from last week. Jeffrey writes in about fish sauce. Remember, we were looking for the Japanese fish sauces, which are awesome. And I suggested mutual trading company. Jeffrey called, said, I called the mutual trading company in Los Angeles. I'm not far from there and wanted to ask you about the showroom. They do have Ishiri fish sauce at 760 a bottle in stock, but are out of stock on the IU at 1420 a bottle. They should have it by late March, and they can ship UPS ground out of state. I think the person who was asking was in Seattle and called 213, this is the mutual trading. 213, uh, 626-9458. And if you've never had these Japanese fish sauces, You must go and purchase them right now. Scott wrote in about, um, uh, slushy machines. Touching on it very briefly last week, but I'll go through the whole question now. Fan of Liquid Intelligence and so far enjoying cooking issues. Just wait, you won't keep listening and you won't. My issue is that every source I can find says the minimum sugar content of a slush machine drink should be 12 bricks. But for some drinks, that's just way too sweet. I don't have the capability to push my machine to the limit because it's for personal use. I want it. It's my baby and I don't want to break it. So for those of you that don't know what's going on here, let's say you're doing a non-alcoholic drink, then, you know, you have to have a certain amount of sugar in the drink. Otherwise, it's gonna freeze solid, and if your slushy machine freezes solid, the dasher, which is the spinning, you know, spinning doodle inside of the ice cream thing, can seize up.
+
+[27:39] And if it seizes up you can burn out your motor. And even if you don't seize it up, but your, um, you know, it's the mixture is too stiff, it can put the motor under a lot of excess
+
+[27:49] strain. So manufacturers of slushy machines tend to recommend that you have a certain minimum amount of sugar in a mix so that you
+
+[27:58] don't um, so that you don't mess up the mess up the machine. Now, the problem here is we'll get it. get into the I'll get into the rest. That's what the crux of the matter is, is that you don't want to have a drink in there that freezes so solid that it ruins the machine.
+
+[28:15] Okay, so then back to the question. My theory is that I can trade out some of that 12 bricks for higher alcohol
+
+[28:20] content and still get a good slush that doesn't risk machine failure. No one online has addressed this specifically, and I'm always skeptical of bars giving away their exact machine recipe to the local newspaper for all sorts of reasons that could be
+
+[28:33] inaccurate and cost me a machine. Yeah, people give out wrong recipes all the time. Most of the time, I don't think it's malice. Do you stars when chefs give out bad recipes? Do you think it's, I think it's just, they don't bother really converting their restaurant recipe to a home recipe in a way that makes sense.
+
+[28:49] I think that's mainly what it is, right? Anyway. I mean, I guess sometimes. You know what? Back in the day, like, back in the day, I think chess always used to hold something back from recipes so that you couldn't exactly duplicate what they're doing, but I think that's kind of
+
+[29:02] a thing of the past. I don't really feel that anymore. Maybe I'm wrong. Uh, my question is, uh, how much alcohol do I need to compensate for a given amount of bricks, reduction to make a slush? If there's no good answer, is there a way to figure out by experimentation without risking my machine? I do a lot of frozen baggy experiments, but I don't see how these relate to the machine. They do relate, in fact. They do relate. If you do a test in a frozen baggy, you can check the texture of
+
+[29:27] it, uh, just by putting it in your freezer, like a regular home freezer that gets down to about -20, somewhere around -20, -4
+
+[29:35] Celsius. Um, sorry, -4 Fahrenheit, -20 Celsius in that range, is a pretty good approximation of what the texture of your frozen drink is going to be like in a machine, but, um,
+
+[29:47] So it's not a bad approximation. It's not perfect, but it's not bad. Or do you have any good anecdotes about this? I'd uh, be less against pushing the limits of my machine if I could get, if I could access sugar and alcohol content of the final slushmit
+
+[30:00] mix with great accuracy on a hydrometer, but I'm aware that alcohol distorts bricks
+
+[30:04] value. Since I use spreadsheets to measure alcohol and sugar content, I can implement whatever advice you have with some precision. Scott, okay. Here's the thing. So, like, there are people, like, Jeffrey Morgenthaler, who has, he has a long blog post on using a slush machine, and he advocates a straight
+
+[30:21] bricks percentage. I forget exactly what he says 12 to 16 bricks, but he's doing 12 to 16 bricks on a finished drink. And that is not a measure of sweetness. Alcohol. You cannot accurately measure sugar and alcohol with any form of refractometer or hydrometer.
+
+[30:46] You can't do it. So, like, typically in a bar scenario, when you're measuring bricks, you're measuring with a refractometer. And alcohol and sugar are incredibly confounding. Now, it could be just the lucky, lucky case that, you know, that, you know, that in the general thing, a ratio of things that taste good, right? That somewhere that they confound each other typically such that 12 to 16 bricks honor a fractometer, theoretical bricks. It not actual bricks, right? It's what the refractometer reads, happens to be a good level. But I would not, I would not do this this way for a recipe creation. I would simply write down how much alcohol and
+
+[31:31] sugar you are adding to the mix. And as I said, last week, like my bricks
+
+[31:39] levels, in frozen drinks, are 85
+
+[31:46] grams per liter. So that is, see, uh, that's 8.5 bricks, theoretically, in that area, right? Is that right, size? 8.5? I think that's 8.5 bricks. So it's like a lot lower. Uh, and then I'm doing um, about uh, 14 to 15% alcohol, right? And in that, I'm doing about a little under like 0.6 to
+
+[32:12] 0.9% of acid, assuming, like, you know, if you think about regular lemon or lime juice is about 6% acidity. And so that's what I'm shooting for, about 14 to 15% alcohol, and about 85 grams
+
+[32:26] to liter of sugar, which is, like I say, about 8.5 bricks. And, um, And then 0.6 to 0.9% of acid. Now, the issue here is that drink is going to be fine
+
+[32:40] textured in your machine, right? And if you're worried about it, like up the out, like go to the higher end of the alcohol range. The problem is, is that high alcohol drinks like that melt extremely quickly. And this is why most, like, you know, crappy daiquiri joints in New Orleans are pushing drinks that are closer to the 7% range.
+
+[33:01] So you're talking about much lower alcohol content. And if your alcohol content is that much lower, down like 7, 7, ABV, that's when you're going to need to boost your sugar into a higher range. So then you might, and I haven't tested drinks in that sugar ratio, but with those drinks, I would assume that you do have to push it higher, like over
+
+[33:22] 10. Um, you know, 10, 11 to get it to, you know, to freeze, uh, right, or 10, maybe 10. anyway. But that's how I would do it. I would do the baggy test to see the texture ahead of time. It's going to give you a rough idea of how the slushing machine works, and then I don't think you're going to, and monitor it. the 1st time you make it. Like if it starts getting really thick, like dope it with a little extra alcohol to thin it out right away. But I would always dope with alcohol rather than sugar because a little pure ethanol will change the freeze rate pretty
+
+[33:51] quickly without adjusting the overall balance that much. Anyway, hope that helps. You think that helped? don't know. You want to take a call, Dave? Yeah, sure. Call it. on the air. Hey, how you doing? Hi. Are we on the air? Yes. Hello? Hey, what's up? Hi. So this is Claire. I've called in before I have the the jetty vegetable spiralizer. Yeah. Have you shoved anything new in your veggie recently? You know, I've kind of been, I've kind of retired. I think I overate it. You've retired, you're veggetti. I'm sorry for you. I have to, I have to take a break, but more on that later. So, Dave, I have I'm in an epic battle with my sister who's on the line. Okay. And we got sick. This is Sissy. We got in a big fight over Christmas because I made a beautiful beef tenderline for
+
+[34:48] Christmas and then we froze some of it for the hammer's instructions. And then I asked the hammer how to decaw it, and she gave me very specific instructions, put it in a
+
+[35:01] ziploc bag with butter and oil, and then put it in water at 128
+
+[35:06] degrees, something like that. So I, I do that, and then I go out to lock the dog, and then... And then... And then I walked in the room, not knowing any of this, and let me preface this by
+
+[35:22] saying, I'm more the environmentalist in the family and not the cook. Right. So I walk in and see the pot boiling with these baggies of meat,
+
+[35:34] black baggy. Wait, it was boiling? ? It was boiling? They were, they were definitely simmering a little bit. They were not boiling. It was 128 degree. I mean, wait, wait, before we go any further, was this was this on a stove or was this in a circulator? On a stove. And Claire, to be fair to your sister, you left the building with something that was not supposed to go above 120 degrees Fahrenheit on the
+
+[36:06] stones. I assigned it to my mother who obviously caught 5 tracks. Right. This is, you know, I'm not saying anything negative about your mom, so let's, okay, keep going. So, sister, you came in and you saw a simmering pot. freak out. I'm like mom, what are you doing? Why are you, why, why do you have plastic, hot plastic in the, in the pot? And I grabbed them all with pongs or a fork thing, and I throw them into the feet. Okay. Because I am concerned about the plastic leaking into the food and being
+
+[36:42] toxic. So then Claire and I get into a huge fight about
+
+[36:47] UB, and whether we use the right plastic, or whether it's even a good idea, or the technique, whatever. So then we start Googling stuff and emailing it back and forth. Uh, I guess our question is, what is the proper way to be? Is food break back? And what is the temperature? All right, let me, let me start by saying I'm completely horrified. By what happened to that poor piece of meat that never did anyone any
+
+[37:20] harm at all. Um, Secondly, Ziploc bags, if you actually use real Ziploc bags, um, from, uh, you know,
+
+[37:32] the uh, SC Johnson Wax, a family company. Oh, wait, or no, it's just Johnson. Yeah, S. Johnson wax, a family company. Uh, they're made of strictly polyethylene. The polyethylene doesn't have any plasticizers or, you know, it's like it's BPA free and all that. So as plastics go, it is kind of the friend, like the bio-friendliest plastic, right? That and polypropylene are the 2 kind of, and I guess nylon, right? Which they use for implants. But nylon typically, there's a lot of times a nylon layer on the inside of some vacuum bags. You're not using that using Ziploc. Zip blocks are pure polyethylene. They, um, they are um, food
+
+[38:14] safe. And I have gotten confirmation from the company,
+
+[38:21] like in writing, basically saying that, yes, it's okay, you know, to
+
+[38:26] do, um, sous vide work in their bags. Here's the problem. The temperature limit for a polyethylene bag is, you know, it won't
+
+[38:41] melt until it gets above boiling, but it really loses all of its strength once it gets over about
+
+[38:47] 85 to 90 Celsius, right? It starts getting real floppy. It starts feeling like something's going wrong, like you're going to have some leeching problems. I've never, like, noticed that to be the case, and but typically when I'm using Ziploc bags, I prevent them from boiling. because they're not really meant to stand it. Um, so sous vide in a ziploc, fine. Uh, sous vide in a ziploc, when it's boiling, like that could be problematic, not from a safety standpoint so much as from like an integrity of the of the
+
+[39:24] bag, um, standpoint. Um, You know, there, I've been looking into ways of doing, um, trying to do, um, low temp work without the
+
+[39:35] plastic. It's just a real hassle. You know what I mean? Either you have to circulate oil or, yeah, I'm looking into different ways of doing it, but it's just a real, it's a real kind of pain in the butt. yes, polyethylene is among the friendliest. So it's not like it's in PVC or anything like that. You know what I mean? But I don't know what is family cancer? You're not giving the family cancer. You are, and the other, the thing is, is that like, uh, but you are, you know, you are, it was beef tenderloin. Yeah. Holy crap. You know, uh, you know, like, how did it taste when it was all said and done? Or was there enough of an argument that it didn't even get eaten? Did it get eaten? Was it pre-cooked? Well, I think it was... I threw I threw a fresh piece for her in the microwave and made it extra well
+
+[40:24] done so that she didn't have to eat the cake. No, I just, before she started to do that. And then I said, no, don't be so drunk. don't worry about it. But my question is, in doing a little bit of research on this, because I am, I'm, I'm like, you know, bottled
+
+[40:40] water, hot in a car. I don't drink that. You know, I'm very aware of some of the issues with plastic and leeching into food and
+
+[40:50] whatnot. My question is, you know, when we did, Claire and I did our research on this to try and prove the other one wrong. We saw that, um, mason jars were an option. Um, how do you feel about that? Well, I mean, the problem with the mason jar is a mason jar needs to be packed 100% full in order for you to get good heat transfer out.
+
+[41:13] So like, like if you take a tenderloin, you're going to have to like pretty heavily abuse it to like, so like, yeah, you
+
+[41:21] could treat it like a tuna fish, right? You could pack it down in, and you could then pour oil around it, and then like seal it off, and that's going to work, but it's going to take a lot longer for the temperature to go through. And the problem with tenderloin is, is that tenderloin, you really don't want to cook it that long at a low temperature.
+
+[41:37] So like, let's say you were going to cook it. I'm just going to choose a number, 54 degrees Celsius, right? The reason being that tenderloin, the less you cook tenderloin, temperature wise, the better because it has basically no connective tissue in it. It's like so tender that, um, if you, like, it tends to taste drier and more overcooked at lower
+
+[41:58] temperatures and let's say a ribeye does, right? A rib eye tends to taste more overcooked at a lower temperature than, let's say, a skirt steak does. So, um, you know, like Tenderloin wants to be cooked down around 54 uh, Celsius right around there. And I don't know in my head what that is, but like that's in Fahrenheit, but that's roughly what you want. But in order to get that temperature through a mason
+
+[42:22] jar, Uh, in, you know, it's going to be a long, long time, and typically you don't want your your tenderloin cooking for longer than about, um, I don't know, 40
+
+[42:34] minutes because if you're doing, you're going to start getting textural effects. Now, that's if you serve them side by side. People might not notice if you cooked it for, you know, too long and serve it to
+
+[42:45] them, like, oh, this is good, this is tender, but if you serve them one side by side, they had only been cooked
+
+[42:50] for like, you know, 40 minutes or something like that, they would tend to like that
+
+[42:53] one, um, a lot more. So you boiled this sucker, you boiled it, and then threw it in a sink, and then microwaved it. Like, what? not all of them got microwaved. I finished. I finished it off the steering on the stove. I only microwaved her a fresh peak. Okay. How thick were the How thick were the pieces? I finished it on the stove. Was it still frozen in the center when you cut it? No. It was actually really tender. Then we got, it was good. I ate the soup be. I ate that, that, the ones that she had cooked, and we put Brenaise sauce on it, and it was delicious. That's Berena sauce for you. I know you all are concerned about the health. I mean, about the cooking techniques. Yeah, I am, I was more concerned about the health aspect of it and I'm concerned about the
+
+[43:47] hiking plastic. Your health, you're fine. Your health is fine. Your health is fine. I'm just still like, I'm trying to picture what the meat looked like when it came out. Did it have those weird little, like, like, crevices that overcooked meat gets on the outside, where it's gray on the outside, and then it went to like raw in the center.
+
+[44:04] Is that what it looked like when you cut the medallions out of it? No, it was really evenly cooked. Honestly, Dave, I think I did her a favor because I threw them out of the boiling water, which it probably wouldn't have boiled if my mom
+
+[44:18] had kept her eye on it, but she she wandered off somewhere. So I actually might have saved the dinner. I'd like to look at it that way anyways. Did you enjoy your microwaved piece? She didn't even dress that one. Just a pro, we didn't miss that. She was gonna tough it out. Oh, all right. Oh, yeah, I knew not to eat that one. I would like you to note that you are both alive. I mean, we don't know whether your endocrine system has been disrupted. Just kidding. There's no endocrine disruptors in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm working on, by the way, invest in a circulator because it's been my,
+
+[44:53] it's been my experience that if you tell someone to watch a pot that they will never watch
+
+[44:58] it. It's like, if you tell someone to turn off a stove at a particular time, it will never happen. The problem with frozen is it's hard to calculate. If you want, they have like, you know, years ago before circulators are really cheap, everyone was trying to figure out how to
+
+[45:15] use like picnic coolers to do low temp work. Very hard, though, with frozen because, um, you have to do a lot more calculation of like, um, the amount of energy it takes to thaw the meat first, but like that's always an option, but it's a huge pain in the butt.
+
+[45:30] So, like, you know, uh, just carry a circulator with you, like wherever you go and then that that can be, you know, it can be your mechanical mom. watch the watch the pot for you. You know what I mean? That's a good answer. Yeah, we should put that on our Christmas list. I'm thankful that Nastasia at least had butter in the bag. At least you follow that piece of advice and put butter in the bag. You what I mean? Well, thank you for helping us, you know, a very difficult family
+
+[45:58] issue and now we know. Yeah. So, you know, look, some people some people are just never going to be convinced on the on the plastic issue in general. I mean, the thing I don't like about is you end up throwing away, like everyone says, you can reuse the plastic. No, you can't. Who the hell reuses Ziploc bags? someone said, here's the washed out Ziploc bag? You'd be like, please, no thank you. You know what I mean? Another thing about another thing about ziplocs. If you're going to pre-sear the meat beforehand, you need to let it cool a little bit before it goes into
+
+[46:25] Ziploc because you can, as soon as it goes above the boiling temperature of water, you will melt the plastic onto your food.
+
+[46:31] That's not cool because, you know, you don't want literally to eat the plastic. I mean, not that it'll necessarily hurt you, but, you know, it's just like, you don't want to eat the plastic. Um, so there's, there's that. But of all the plastics, it's one of the friendlier ones. All right, great. Well, thank you so much. All right. Hey, Dave, we got a great day. Dave, we got to take our break real quick and then you can come back and do your sign off. All right, we'll take a commercial break. right back.
+
+[47:05] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for
+
+[47:12] sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[47:41] get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[47:46] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat, and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[48:01] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. So, so, Tenderloin boiled, thrown across the kitchen, and then nuked.
+
+[48:18] That's just a horror show. That's a horror show. You imagine what was said that day? That's a horror show. It's a horror it's a horror show. I figured I'd give you the break to recover from that a little bit, I guess it didn't work. First of all, by the way, of party, I'm gonna, I have one last thing I got to get too quickly because I have someone cooking for their pregnant wife.
+
+[48:41] You also need to read that thing in front of you. All right, we'll do that on the way out. So, uh, I'm going back to the book that I'm writing, I'm working on the different party tricks, like
+
+[48:52] 70s style party tricks that I'm going to put in there. I need to know what you guys think is fun, right? So I'm gonna do a big whole big old whole fish. Uh, try to make it friendly for home and a smaller whole fish, like the one I did over the weekend. I'm gonna obviously do like a big old prime rib. I'm gonna do a crown roasted pork, I think. But then, like, you know, what else, what other old school, like, things that people don't do anymore that are typically
+
+[49:17] overcooked, do you want to see? Like, do you guys want to see a beef Wellington? I can do a sick beef Wellington. Speaking of tenderloin, um, or not, you know, and like old
+
+[49:25] school, straight up duck sales, puff pastry and get it like perfect. But I don't know if this is the kind of thing people are interested in. So any sort of party tricks that people want me to, uh, to, uh, you know, put in the book for, uh, sous vide, sous vide party tricks. Let me know. Okay. Pedro wrote in. And by the way, A.K. wrote in, we're not going to get to it this week, but on mocktails, but I'll have a lot to say about like how to make nice mocktails next week, I hope. Pedro writes in from Lisbon, I think. First of all, thanks to the great work you guys do every week. Just a couple of questions. My wife is 23 weeks pregnant, and I have some questions regarding food safety and sous vide. She isn't immune to toxoplasmosis, so we take extra precaution with salads and wrong ingredients, et cetera. By looking at the low temperature charge from cooking issues blog, which you can still look up, by the way. I know that because I looked them up this morning. Uh, um, can I assume that cooking beef slash pork slash
+
+[50:17] duck for one hour at 58 degrees Celsius will make it safe. Okay, so, what they're talking about is I have, I took all the
+
+[50:26] old, and I think there's been some newer, newer charts. I going to look into it for the book, but looking at the charts where you basically have time and temperature. So when you're talking about food safety, you're talking this aspect of food safety, you're talking about killing bacteria. And so, you know, people, you know, back in the day, you used to say you have to cook to this preposterously high temperature because the rule is you only have to hold it there for 10 or 15 seconds and then it's safe because you've killed everything. But, as you know, as most of us know who, you know, have been working in this field for a while, that you can actually make things safe by cooking at a much lower temperature for a much longer period of time.
+
+[51:02] And so, um, in, in poultry, which by the way, it was measured in chicken, not in duck, and it's not exactly the same, but for chicken,
+
+[51:10] Uh, and you would never cook this low, but if you cooked chicken at 58 degrees for Celsius for an hour, you would kill salmonella.
+
+[51:19] And so it would be safe in terms of salmonella because that's what that was measured for, a little over an hour, actually. The trick with this is. And so you assume the same thing for duck and whatnot. The trick with this is, is that when you're actually trying to pasteurize something, you don't count the exterior of the meat, you only count from when the core makes it up to that temperature.
+
+[51:36] So you have to build in the safety factor for pasteurization to deal with, once the core reaches pasteurization temperature, Um, you know, that's when you start your start your clock. And for salmonella, you could probably go lower if you cooked
+
+[51:52] longer, and there's probably now numbers out for duck as opposed to for chicken, which is where I did my
+
+[51:57] thing. Beef numbers are much lower. So if you look at the curve for beef, beef, they're not trying to kill salmonella. They're trying to kill, um, uh, uh, E. coli. So anyway, so that's how that works, but it's from the middle. And then secondly, we normally go to a pizzeria where the oven, the outer layer is made of
+
+[52:16] gold, just for the fun of it. This is in Lisbon. It's called golden oven, Fornadoro. It's so hot that the pizza only stays inside for 90 seconds, so the ingredients get roasted pretty quick. Is this also safe, as you could tell, it's our 1st baby? And then they went to Booker and Dax when they're on their honeymoon, you know, unfortunately, it's, you know, closed. But when you come back, hopefully we have the new place open. And lastly, I forgot to ask about alcohol and food. Is it safe to use it in risottos and beer batters for frying, or the, you know, well, the heat evaporated totally. The heat will not evaporate it totally, but their heat will evaporate a lot of it, and so much of it is gone, and it's usually so diluted that, like, I've never worried or
+
+[52:58] hesitated serving it to a pregnant person, right? Because, A, you're not adding that much. And B, you're cooking off the majority of the alcohol. So it's a very small amount that's, you know, that's in there. The only time that I worry about it is when I have someone who, either for moral reasons or, um, you know, just has to be really strict with himself to not consume any alcohol, that they, uh, that's the only time that I would
+
+[53:24] forego on something like that. And the, um, you know, and later on, like, you know, in breastfeeding, we, I've talked about on the show before, like the new research that goes against what I used to say on consumption of alcohol, uh, just prior to breastfeeding.
+
+[53:38] But anyway, we'll talk about that later. Back to your pizza oven being safe. If you were looking at, I mean, those temperatures are so high that typically people who are cooking a
+
+[53:46] 92nd, like Neapolitan style pizza aren't putting a boatload of toppings on,
+
+[53:52] right, Styles? like they're not like topping the hell out of it. And if you get up to the point where like the cheese is nicely melted and the crust is cooked, right?
+
+[54:01] So you know how like sometimes Styles, when you look at it, like if they try to do the super fast, super high thing and the crust is too thick, you get that layer of uncooked crust in between that thing where the sauce hits, that's an indication that it hasn't like gotten up to those really high temperatures.
+
+[54:14] But if the sucker's cooked all the way through, I'm pretty sure you're hitting in
+
+[54:18] the, at least in the 60s of degrees Celsius, and anything up in there is wiping out anything that's going to alias. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. Um, and, uh, but, you know, it's good to worry about, um, good to worry about these things when, uh, when your wife is pregnant. And if I were you, I'd be busting out like all kind of like pasteurized steaks, rare and all kind of runny eggs pasteurized because that's what I, that's whenever I have the pregnant, when my wife was pregnant or my
+
+[54:48] sister-in-laws or when friends come over pregnant, I always give them that stuff that they're not supposed to have at restaurants because I know I can do it safely with the
+
+[54:54] circulator. Uh, and I would get my normal sign off, but I'm supposed to give this, uh, this ad that in fact we were reading in the middle. So I'm going to sign off now, right? And then I'm going to read that. Keep it consistent. Okay, keep it consistent. Yeah. So this thing that I'm about to recite to you actually happened in the middle of the show, even though you might think it's the end of the show, this, what I'm reading to you now is actually happening in the middle. Time is a flat circle. Modernist pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own
+
+[55:30] kitchen. Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, modernist pantry, has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences.
+
+[55:48] Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry, the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchenalchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary
+
+[56:06] ingredients and tools. And that is it, folks, for cooking issues. See you next time.
+
+[56:16] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Today's show is sponsored by Bob's Red Mill. With natural foods, they support organic, vegan, paleo, and gluten-free lifestyles. Learn more about their commitment to good food for all at bobsredmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jule, the immersion circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage radio network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:41] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:53] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. every Tuesday from like, I don't know, what is it, like 1215 to like 1245, one o'clock. Uh, you know, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Yeah? Yeah. Got Dave in the booth. How you doing? Also good. Yeah? How do you pronounce your last name? Tada sure. Tadishure. So it's like not like the full Italian pronunciation. Give me the Italian. Not in this country, I guess. Give me the Italian. Tatascuri. Hey, hey, but you pronounce it Tatishore? Like dinosaur, but with Tata? You know, funny story. I one time met Ben Stein, the comedian, and he asked my
+
+[1:41] name and I told him and he was like, oh, like Dinah Shore. For real? Yeah. So that's one thing I share with Ben Stein. Yes. Nice. All right. Why did you meet Ben Stein? I don't know. was like wandering around the campus of my school. That seems like he was there for he must have been there for a show or something. This was at this was at a school which shall remain unnamed in central Pennsylvania many, many years ago. Did he, was he doing his, uh, his Bueller bit or was he doing
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+[2:09] his, uh, his, his game show bit or what? No, I think actually, I don't know. I don't think it was a comedy show. I think he was just there to speak about life or Nixon or whatever he has
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+[2:21] to say. Yeah, he's quite a conservative dude. He's like super conservative dude. Yes, shockingly. Like super conservative. But like regardless of anyone's political beliefs, everyone loves Bueller, Bueller. what school did you go to? was Penn State. Nice. Penn State's great. Why do you not what? No, no, but Dave, what school did you go to? What, me? Oh, Nastasia, like Nastasia went to Stanford. Yeah, yeah, but this is my, this is what I hate when people ask me what school I went to. What school do you go to? Oh, it's in Northern California. Like how Northern? We talking like Eureka? We talking... So you went to like, you know, what? You're like, stay in food. No, no, they're like, what is in Palo Island? You keep going. East Palo Alto, though. like went to like a like a CC in East Palo Alto. That's what you've done, like, Connecticut? It's not true? They're like, where do you live? Connecticut? Because I actually lived in Connecticut. No, no, no. agree with this. Yeah, yeah. You'd say where you went. Here's the issue. I'm 45 years old, almost 46 years old. I mean, where I went to school, pretty immaterial, other than the fact that I met my wife there. Yeah. But Penn State, which is where my grandpa who just died, came from the lion, you know, whatever, like they have great ice cream, apparently. They have like the ice cream program. Like, if you want to learn how to make ice cream on a commercial level, like you go to Penn State, you ever have their ice cream when they were out there? Did you enjoy their ice cream? Yeah of course. All right. They have great ice cream and a pathological state of denial going on up there. About other things. Yes. Look, that all right, I got you. All right. There's been a caller who's been waiting, right? All right, well, I'll take that caller, and if there are more callers calling your questions, 2718-497-2128, that's 718-497-2128, and call her you're on the air. Hey, uh, this is Darren, uh, a young fan from the kingdom of that one. Hey, nice. Can you hear me, okay? Until now, the quality's been kind of bad on my side. Let me ask you a question. In the Netherlands, are they super worried about sea levels rising? Oh, man, I'm so sorry, I really can't hear you on my end. Maybe I should try and call you back. No, yeah, call back so you can hear what I hear. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? I feel like the guy who switched from Verizon to Sprint. Can you hear me now, color? Give a call back. Give a call back and we'll try it again. In the meantime. I think you have another color. I have another color? Yeah, there's another call. All right, call her, you're on the air. Hello? What's going on with these people? We're having some bad luck with the calls today. Listen, you tell me, are you there? Hey, how you doing, caller? Oh, hi. Yes, I can kind of hear you. How's it going? I had a question about pressure cooking stocks in aluminum pot. Sure. Um, I'm opening a restaurant that's gonna be doing a lot of soups and we're hoping to do pressure cooked chicken stock. And the biggest one I can find that's not like insanely expensive is like a 41 quart all-American special cooker that's, but they're only made in aluminum. And I was wondering if there's any concerns with that. Because I noticed on, in, uh, one of your posts from a while ago in the blog, you guys
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+[5:32] used like a steel steel insert when you guys were using. Yeah, a lot depends on what you're going to do. Like, okay, so there's there are people who are worried about aluminum in any event. I'm not one of those people, but like you do need to be worried about aluminum in excessively basic conditions or anytime you're setting up sort of like kind of a galvanic cell between metals or like if you have heavy detergents going into it or if you have, I guess also, I mean, I wonder what, I guess extreme
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+[6:01] acids too, whatever. But anyway, so aluminum, though, in chicken stock, I don't think is going to be that big of a problem. You know, I'm sure you've used over the course of your life, various qualities of aluminum pots, and what, you know, what you notice is that they get, um, they get pitted out, especially like the lower quality ones, get pitted out a lot, and that metal's going somewhere.
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+[6:21] Guess where? Uh, you know what I mean? It's like, some of it's getting scrubbed out, but, you know, some of that stuff's getting beached out. Most of it happens when you can form like a galvanic connection, like an electrical connection between dissimilar
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+[6:34] metals and a liquid medium, i.e. your food. Now, in chicken stock, which, you know, isn't especially acidic or basic, I doubt that you're going to have that many
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+[6:44] problems, and I myself am not worried about, I'm not worried about it in very, very long cooking items. I've had some things discolor when they're cooking in the presence of aluminum foil in
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+[6:55] sous vide, but we're talking like, you know, days. you know, or at least many, many hours. So like a short run in a pressure cooker, I don't think is going to cause that much of a problem. Now you could get people on. See, back in the day, people used to worry about aluminum pots because there was increased aluminum content in the brains of
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+[7:17] autopsied Alzheimer's patients. And so then the question was, did aluminum cause Alzheimer's or not, right? And this is a big problem because aluminum's in like a lot of the baking powders that we use. I think it's also one of the main ingredients in, you know, an aluminum compound. I think in underarm deodorant. And so we come into aluminum in kind of non-natural formats. Okay, pretty often. You know what I mean? Um, and so they did a lot of research, and I think it was determined that, you know, that it is true that Alzheimer's patients put more aluminum into their brains, but it's not that they, that you and
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+[7:59] I necessarily are getting aluminum into, through the food we ingest, and depositing it in our brains, and that's causing Alzheimer's. In other words, I think the current research shows that it's a, it's a result rather than a cause, if that makes sense. So, you know, what you need to worry about more is like, is it affecting the flavor, I think, of other
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+[8:21] stock? And you know what? Honestly, I've never noticed it. I've never done a side by side in the American pressure canner versus like, um, because the other problem with the American pressure, you know, pressure canner is that it is a big ship to steer. So you have, it takes a while to get her up to pressure and then it takes a while to stabilize it out. You know what I mean? And you have all those fidgety, fussy knobs on the top of it that you, you know, tighten it down like a submarine bulkhead.
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+[8:49] Actually, I wish it was like a submarine bulkhead. Those have just that one big knob. These have like all those little like, you know, those little black knobs. So it can be kind of fidgety to get it going, but it does make a whole boatload of stuff once you're done. The other thing you have to be careful with on those units is they take a long time to cool down too. Long time to cool down. So, like, it's not necessarily for anything that you need to do like a natural temperature drop on just because you're going to be there forever. You know what I mean? Whereas, you know, for stock, I don't really, this is true. You might get more, you're probably going to get a cloudier stock if you force cool it rather than let it like come down naturally, but you might be able to cut your recipes a little bit
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+[9:33] shorter, and then to account for the fact that it's going to take a long time for the thing to kind of drift back
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+[9:38] down. But back to what I was saying, I've never noticed an aluminum flavor on something that is cooked solely in an aluminum pot that is not acidic,
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+[9:48] it's not basic, and also doesn't have any other metal implements in it. You know what I mean? So, you know, I've noticed in kind of mixed metal situations, you know, where I know the aluminum is
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+[9:59] leeching. I don't know whether it's my mind telling me there's a taste or not, could be, you know, it's hard to say. Um, But that's just my, you know, my general impression because, you know, in general, you know, I, everybody knows that a lot of their stuff in a restaurant, you know, maybe not a high-end restaurant, but
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+[10:17] in like, you know, medium restaurants is cooked in aluminum because large aluminum pots are so much cheaper than large stainless steel pots, so much cheaper for a given level of, you know, quality.
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+[10:26] And so, you know, unless, you know, what was the last time you were at a restaurant where
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+[10:31] someone like had the soup and was like, oh my god, they cooked this in aluminum. You know what I mean? Now, that said, I think it would make sense to do, like, some side by side, just kind of for fun to see whether you could blind, you know, triangle
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+[10:45] test to see whether you could taste a difference. But I kind of doubt it outside of the, you know, the very basic things that I mentioned here. I'm kind of, you know, it's interesting. The people who make that pressure cooker, they make it for 2 reasons. They don't really call it a cooker, they call it either a canner or a sterilizer, depending on what lid you're using. And for those of you that look it up on online, it is by far the biggest pressure cooker you can
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+[11:07] get, um, you know, they don't call it a cooker because I guess presumably like they're like, who coaxed that much, but the, um, because they're not aimed at pros
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+[11:17] necessarily. And almost, I've never seen, you know, a modern, um, non-stainless,
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+[11:25] uh, you know, sandwich, uh, pressure cooker. So it would be hard to do a side by side, which is, I guess, one of the reasons I've never, I've never really done it, but you could do a standard soup side by side, I guess, um, aluminum versus stainless and see what's going on. But that's probably also because they don't, they're not expecting you to cook in it. what I, you know, cooking quotes, like cook a stock, is probably why they don't have a version of it with like an interior
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+[11:46] hard anodized shell. You know what I mean? Uh, because that would make it a lot easier. Now, if you want to go super fancy, you could take it to your local,
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+[11:54] uh, you know, local anodizer and and they could make it like whatever awesome color you want along with the hard anodized coating. You could have like the sweetest pink pressure canter in the whole world. You know what I mean? Um, but, um, I don't know whether... puddings for it, but I didn't, I haven't looked into the anodized. Yeah, you know, it's not that expensive to get something anodized, but what I don't know is whether or not the food anodizing people do have like a special bath or whether there's any sort of food
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+[12:20] gradness to like what an anodizer does because I've never looked at. I have looked at getting parts anodized before. Because, you know, like a lot of aluminum par cards, people want them all different colors because they
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+[12:30] want, like, you know, they want this piece to be red and this piece to be green because, you know, they're spending a lot, a lot of money on their
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+[12:36] cars, so like everything has to be just so. And when you have an aluminum part, anodizing is the way to go. Or if you look at like mag lights, you know, back when people were buying a bunch of mag lights, uh, before they got swamped by all the LED people,
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+[12:48] like, think of all the anodized, cool colors mag lights came in. You know what I mean? Or still come in, I guess. Right, right. So it is possible, but I don't know the cost. Great. And then, and then you guys, you recommend the canner, right? Because the top of that has doesn't have the jiggler valve. It just has like the regular sort of um, non-steam releasing valves. Okay, so the way that the can, there's, there's two. The canner and the sterilizer. The sterilizer is kind of a pain in the butt because it's got a long kind of tube that comes out of
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+[13:15] it, and that tube is to guarantee that you vent off all of the air that's inside of your pressure cooker.
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+[13:23] One of the things about a pressure cooker that is not talked about that often, except for, I guess, by pressure cooker, Kanya Shenti, is that you want to actually allow steam to escape
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+[13:34] for, uh, like, you know, you know, a minute or 2 um, at the beginning of the cook. And the reason is you want to purge all the dry air out of it and have it all be steam. Now, it seems like, you know, it seems like that doesn't make
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+[13:48] sense, and at 1st blush, when I thought about it, it seems like it wouldn't make a difference, but from what everybody says, it actually makes a
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+[13:54] difference and the pressure canter people, the pressure sterilizer people who are using, you know, sterilizing implements to use for surgery, especially care about this sort of thing.
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+[14:02] Uh, and so, you know, in general now, and if you look at like a
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+[14:07] coon recon, for instance, like, you know how, like when... Yeah, right. So when it comes up to temperature, like the side valve hisses for a while, before it shuts off, and
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+[14:17] that's, you know what I'm saying, that's a little side valve, and that's inherent in the
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+[14:22] design such that you get the dry air out of the pressure cooker and all that's left in there is steam.
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+[14:29] And so that's why it does that. So, you know, if you if you wonder, like, why the hell did they design it this way? Why didn't they just seal it? And that's the reason. So with these guys, they have what's called a very nice geared pressure sensor on the top of the pressure cooker, right? One that's far more accurate than the crappy ones that you get in, you know,
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+[14:51] in a standard home pressure cooker. But then they also have a weight on them and the weight looks a little bit like a round tinker toy with different size holes drilled in it. And depending on which hole you put on top of the vent valve of the pressure
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+[15:06] caner, it puts, it's a different radius, and therefore a different amount of pressure that's going to be pushing up on it, and therefore you can adjust the over, like when the steam starts venting on it based on the
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+[15:19] weight, the weight and the circle diameter of that little tinker toy. Uh, so what you do is you leave the tinker toy off for a little while, let a lot of steam come up, and then once
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+[15:29] a steam comes up, you put the tinker toy on, and then you adjust the pressure such that the tinker toy is not venting anymore, and you're just using the pressure gauge to determine the pressure of
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+[15:40] the um, of the stock. See what I mean? So that's how that's how you do it. But it's still considered advisable to, um, to let that thing vent. And I did a bunch of tests where like, you know, I artificially increased the weight of the tinker toy, such that you have to keep the weight centered or it's kind of a
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+[15:58] mess. but I artificially increased the weight of the tinker toy. One thing you have to be careful of a professional kitchen is some knucklehead is going to lose that weight. They're going to lose it. Then you are hosed. So back when it was living at the French Culinary Institute, I literally tied, I tied it to the handle of the, which is not smart in a pro kitchen because the health inspector is going to be like, what's this piece of string tied to
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+[16:22] you, it's not in a surf anymore. You know what I mean? But like, but like, just to make sure that I wasn't going to lose that little thing, because the whole piece of equipment is functionally useless after you lose that, you know what I
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+[16:34] mean? It's just one of those things. Can you say tinker toy one more time? Tinker toy. Do you not have Tinker Toy? When I was a kid, one of my best toys, I had, unfortunately, was made of plastic because, you know, this was the, like, the
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+[16:45] mid 70s, but they used to make giant tinker toys out of plastic that you could literally make things you could sit in,
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+[16:51] right? So I was fortunate enough to have a set of these giant tinker
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+[16:56] toys and I can still, like, you know, if you were to scale them up to my, you know, you know, adult size, like the long tinker toy pipe would be like
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+[17:04] 4.5 , 5 feet long, like big. You know what I mean? I mean, when I was, I'm sure it was only 2.5 feet long because I was, you know, like shorter,
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+[17:13] but, you know, anyway. So hopefully this has this hopefully this has been helpful. What I would like you to do, if you do some experiments, I would like you to either call back or tweet over on at cooking issues and let me know how it works out so that I
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+[17:25] can, uh, help, uh, you know, further cruise in their in pressure cooking endeavors. Great. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, Dave. Yeah, did we get that other fellow back? Yeah, other fella. you still there? Hey, how you doing? Can you hear us now? Yeah, I can hear you pretty okay. Nice. before was better, so I was listening, but looks like it's forgiven. So, uh, hi, just Tasia. Hi Dave. Um, I mean, I'm fans calling from the Netherlands. I relatively recently discovered the show. Um, and your men's kick butt, uh, backlog of shows, uh, which I listen to on my commutes to my engineering internship. So thanks a lot for that. I recently made a chef steps chicken pot pie. Yeah, by the way, I'm a college student. So I've got like low budget, but hopefully not low quality questions for you. All right, nice. like low budget. Nastasia likes low quality. like low budget. All right, great. So, um, I really enjoyed uh, chicken pot pie, uh, cooking my girlfriend this weekend, and, uh, I have loads of time on the weekend to go crate days, but I don't even have access to a kitchen generally during the week. Um, so I'm currently thinking a lot about preparing food in advance and preparing good food in advance. Um, so what can you recommend and when you're considering something like a chicken pot pie? Is that best to store in a semi or post-cooked piece or in its constituent sort of pieces like
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+[18:51] dough balls and the filling? That's a good question. So I've never stored a, I mean, I've had chicken pot pie. First of all, let's just all be clear. Nastasi, you like chicken pot pie, right? Love. Dave, you like chicken pot pie? Best. Yeah. Chicken pot pie is good. I'm going to let's put this all on the table. I like an actual chicken pot pie, i.e. one that has a bottom crust and a top crust, one that was at one time. Right, right. Now, in a modern person, right? Okay, so like, are you but you're American, right? So you've been you've hung out. Have you been to school in America? No, no, I grew up completely in Europe. Oh my god, you're one of those spy-like people who sounds like an American, but isn't from here. You're crazy. Are you a spy? Yeah, half American, half Dutch, but I grew up in football. All right, all right. All right, all right. Nastasia therefore likes you because of the whole Swiss thing. But listen. So, like, in America, a crappy pot pie, even though I feel that we
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+[19:45] are, like, you know, one of the, you know, bastions of pot pie nests in the world,
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+[19:49] like, there's this terrible idea where they take a hotel pan and they put the pot pie mix into the hotel pan and just put the crust on top.
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+[19:57] So just be sure we're not talking about that kind of 2nd tier of pot pipe. Okay. So the issue with the pot pie and storage, once it's baked, is just making sure that the crust on the bottom doesn't get kind of overly soggy.
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+[20:10] So, um, you know, the, but, I see, I wish I'd run some more tests. I don't buy frozen like pot pies. I admit when I was a kid. I had plenty of, you know, was it Swanson or Stauffer who made the pot pie. Swanson who made the pot pie. I had plenty of those growing up, but yeah. So what's the best way? It's probably similar. I'm trying to think of what a pie. I'm trying to figure out whether you should just make the crust and freeze it and then blind bake or whether or
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+[20:40] not I don't know how thick you could get and actually literally cooked a pot pie from frozen entirely from frozen. You know what I mean? I'm trying to, it might actually not be so bad. You know what I mean? Like, so if you're looking at a, uh, I'd have to, I'd have to get, uh, our friend Nick Devlin to run some, um, console,
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+[20:58] uh, uh, stuff, but I don't know how long it would take the standard pot pie, because the, the goop is, like, I'm a believer in
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+[21:06] pre-cooking the goop out. Basically, the chicken's already cooked, everything's cooked, right? So then basically you just need to thaw the goop and then cook the shell. You might be able to freeze. You might be able to freeze an entirely raw pot pie and just do it.
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+[21:21] I don't know though. Anyone on the uh, anyone on the boards, uh, Dave? who has cooked a frozen a pot pie and then cooked it. I'll let you know, chat room. Yeah, see what the chat room has to say, chime in on this. But I would see I would think it's possible. Well, if I ever try, I'll let you know how it goes. Um, and, and like, when, when you, like, consider, um, like, I know, whenever you're traveling or
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+[21:46] whatever, and you want to prepare meals in advance, and if you just know you have, uh, not that much time during the
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+[21:51] week, like, I mean, it sounds like an excuse, but I really honestly don't have, uh, access to the kitchen. What sort of recipes can you recommend, uh, to prepare, like, on a whole weekend because I'm happy to cook the whole weekend? What do you have? What do you have for reheating capabilities? I often have access to a microwave. Sometimes a stove, but that's about it. So I'm like in a pretty dire situation. Right. I mean, I mean, the obvious ones are things like, I mean, soups, like you want something that doesn't degrade, right? But are you looking for an idea that isn't just like the standard non- non-degrading, like anything that is a stew
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+[22:32] or, or, you know, something like this is kind of a, like, easy and easy call? The problem with those things is reheating. So, like, if you're in, if you're, let's say you're in a dorm room or wherever, some sort
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+[22:45] of, like, you know, non-ideal circumstance and you have a court container
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+[22:50] of soup, that sucks, thawing those out sucks. Um, you know, the real, but the problem is, is if you take, let's say, something like
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+[23:00] soup, and you would, you know, freeze it in a Ziploc format, which is what I tend to do or chill it in Ziploc format flat. So like the easiest way to reheat something that is not, you know, a large object like a
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+[23:13] roast is to spread it into a ziploc as thin as possible and then freeze them in flat sheets on sheet trays.
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+[23:20] Then they become basically thin bricks that thaw out extremely quickly. And also, yeah, they heat up very quickly. But the issue is, is you want to be careful when you microwave it because if you have oil in your thing, it can locally overheat and melt out the
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+[23:36] Ziploc, because Ziploc bags, their, their melting temperature is extremely, where they lose their structural integrity, it's not a safety issue, but it's extremely close
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+[23:47] to the boiling point of water. So it's very easy in a microwave to locally overheat a
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+[23:53] Ziploc bag and have it lose its integrity, and that kind of sucks. Uh, but you can do things like, um, you can do things like, uh, and I've done this recently, where you take the frozen ziploc, and you score it, and then you break the thing into sheets and then put that into the microwave and sheet format, and they just melt down into your bowl, easiest
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+[24:14] pie, or if you happen to get a hold of a, you know, a, you know, a cheap circulator, or even sometimes
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+[24:20] just, uh, hot water in, you know, out of a tap, you can thaw those bags very, very
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+[24:27] quickly, and then put them into something to reheat them like a microwave. But it really, really sucks to reheat quart containers of soup in a microwave. I don't know if you've ever tried. or stews. No, I've never tried those. It's horrible. Nastas, you've tried that, right? And it's horrible. You get that giant chunk and then it starts spinning, and then you shove the spoon into the core container to try to get it to, and then it spins around and it spurts up into your freaking eye, and you think you're like, oh, it's only going to be 5 minutes until I got dinner on the
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+[24:54] table, and then like 20 minutes later, like, it's a microwave. I thought it was quick. What's your problem? You know what I mean? I hate that. Hate. Hate. But another good thing is you can do sauces. So you could do you could pre-do certain pasta sauces and whatnot can also be bagged out in the same way so that if you have access to, let's say,
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+[25:11] um, just like a simple hot plate, you could boil out your pasta and then you could have your sauce pre-bagged, you know, pre-portioned pre-bagged, and you could be thawing that in hot water as you
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+[25:22] go, and the noodles themselves will do a major bit of reheating on that sauce as long as it isn't dead cold.
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+[25:28] As long as it's not like a, like, it depends also. Like if you're doing a sauce that has a huge volume, right, then you're
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+[25:33] going to really cool down the pasta quite a bit, but as long as you're doing a sauce where it's a relatively small volume, even if it's just warm, the pasta will still be good. I know Nastasia enjoys cooking some pasta. Yes. Especially now that she's a part of pasta. I'll definitely think of this. And also, if I'm like making chicken pot pie next time or something and I'm like, I can scale my recipe, put it in like a flat
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+[25:57] ziploc, and then I can have easy access to it, like even if I do have access to the kitchen and just speed up that whole cooking process. That's a great, that's a great tip. Yeah, sure. All right, well, let us know, let us know how everything works. got anything else? Absolutely. I've got a couple like 11 more question. Do I have time for that? Yeah, sure, go ahead. All right, great. I'm fascinated by your spins all, and I love the low temperature tips that you've got and everything. I have a total tech enthusiast. you know, I'm an engineering student. I mean, what you gonna do? So I'd love to have like a gadget filled kitchen. So, what unconventional, like, budget friendly tools can you recommend, uh, to people like me and to tinkers? I'm also not afraid of getting some basic electronics and if my
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+[26:38] degree is worth anything, then I should be able to build something of relatively good quality. Right. are you, are you, what are you, doubly, Mecky? What are you? Aerospace engineering? Oh, wow, okay. So, all right, fine. All right. So, yeah, so you should be able to do some stuff. Is that still like a real baller area of engineering or no? It's like, um, basically, um, mechanical engineering with some extra thermodynamics and fluid dynamics is probably, I mean,
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+[27:07] it's, uh, maybe some people get angry by that, but, uh, and that's probably how I describe it. Yeah, it's a cool cool engineering field, I think. Anyway, um, I mean, so just, you know, having used most of the stuff that people use,
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+[27:20] obviously, you know, the 1st thing you're going to need is you're going to need an immersion circulator. Um, eventually, you know, you might want to tweak out your own version of uh, steam injection or like massive control of an oven. Like, I'm a huge believer in massive oven control. And you can do that. That's great because I've got like this awful compact oven and I'd love to develop like a front end where I can like put a profile into
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+[27:45] it. That would be super sick. Oh, you totally? Yeah, you and you totally can. You know what I mean? So, like, if it's especially easy if it's electric. Uh, it's not. It's not that hard, even if it's gas, you just have to be a little more careful with the kind of with the safety stuff. Um, but I've tricked out electrics, I've tricked out gas ovens, and yeah, you can do lots of cool stuff. Like, you can do, um, you can do, you know, your own steam injection into
+
+[28:10] it. You can do, uh, your own versions of uh, force convection on the inside. You can do independently heated bottoms and tops. You could, there's, you know, with, with, yeah, all kinds of cool stuff you can do messing with your oven. As long as if you own it, it's no problem. If you don't own it, you just have to make it be able to look okay. I also always, after making this mistake several times, Uh, I always put a, uh, like a human switch in where you're just like, okay, a normal human now can come in and use my
+
+[28:42] oven, and then I would put it into my mode where, you know, everyone's like, why can't I just,
+
+[28:47] before, why can't I just use your oven, Dave? Why does everything have to be so complicated? You know what I mean? It's like all that kind of complaining, so it makes your life a lot easier. Just have that switch on it, like, you know, normal mode. love it. That's great. I'm gonna like, who knows when I have time, but when I do, I'll let you know how it goes. And last but not least, you might know of Dutch and Neighbor. Um, you, I don't really actually find it all that pleasant myself. Um, but are there any cool, like, food combinations that come to your mind with regard to cooking or mixing with it? Because I'd love to find an awesome use for it and enjoy it with, because it's still quintessentially Dutch. I got a lot of Dutch friends, friends and family. I think they'd be really impressed if I could like, you know, spin something up. Right, I've never cooked with it. Tristan, I mean, like over here, we now, Philip Duff, who's, you know, a liquor international liquor person, but he spends a lot of time here in the
+
+[29:40] US. He has a Jennifer company and so he's going to be mad that I don't have this stuff just tripping off the tongue, but I've never cooked with it. We used to use it, you know, a bit at the bar and the, I don't have the speck in my head because it wasn't my spec, but Tristan Willie, our original manager at Booker and
+
+[29:57] Dax. He had a drink called Bulls Deep. I'm sure the recipes online that is like, uh, it's like an old-fashioned, but it's one of these inverted
+
+[30:04] angle drinks, so it's got a boatload of angostura in it. Um, we also used to do uh, Bulls, uh, Jennifer and Apricot. And that's a really good mix. So you might want to think of apricot and Jennifer because they go together quite well. But I don't have, and I've used, I've mixed with it a number of occasions. I just don't have any specs in my in my head. You know what I mean? It's the kind of thing where you're working on a project and you're like, oh, you know what? Jennifer would be good for that. But, you know, any, like, once you start, like, appreciating, how long have you been, you've been there
+
+[30:37] your whole life, you said, you've been there. No, you Switzerland, you grew up. right, but you're half Dutch. Are you a fan of salty licorice or no? Uh, yeah, yeah, I am. I'm pretty partial to it. So you like most Dutch things, just not Jennifer. Uh, well, uh, Dutch culinary. I might get some hate for this, but, uh, it's a little on the basic side sometimes, but no, I like some of these kind of Dutch delicacies and sweets and things that are typically Dutch, yeah. Alright. So, um, anyway, I think like, you know, once you start, uh, the more you use something, the more you like it. the more you like it, the more you find uses for it. Yeah, that's exactly what I figured. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I mean, who of us are really born loving most of the things that we end up loving. You know, very few of the things. You know, we're not born loving coffee, I don't think. We're not born loving a lot of the things that we end up liking. So yeah, use, find a couple of uses that you like, you know, put a peg on those and then branch out from there and you'll find more and more that you like. The real trick, once you like something, is finding something that a non-lover will like. That's the real trick. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's great. So thanks so much for all the tips. Love your work, love the show. Both of you and Nastasia. Um, I've got your uh, liquid intelligence book because I'm kind of getting into cocktails at the
+
+[31:56] moment, sort of new to me, a bit of my toe in. But yeah, thanks for all the great work and I'll call in if I have any more questions
+
+[32:02] or uh, yeah, just to let you know how everything goes. Great tips. Thank you. All right, Dave, should we go to a commercial or we have another car? You read my mind. Yeah, let's take a commercial and then we got a caller on the line waiting. All right, cool. Coming right back with cooking issues.
+
+[32:29] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brûlée, bright crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[33:02] gets you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[33:07] Browse chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[33:22] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978. One of the nice things about Bob's Red Mills. It's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting, hard to get,
+
+[33:44] grains, and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very
+
+[33:53] easily or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities. But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's
+
+[34:01] Red Mill and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with. Learn more at
+
+[34:07] bobsredmill.com slash podcast. And we are back. Man, will not shut up. So many commercials. What is with that now? Also, that commercial, not very good. Which one's spelt? You were spelt all over yourself. Listen, while we're, well, all over myself, I like that. Like interrupting myself. Uh, look, we're going to take a caller, but in the meantime, I brought back this hot, sour candy called um, uh, Winnie's
+
+[34:37] Acid Ups from Mexico, Nastasia. eat another one while we're talking. You don't like it? Why not? I don't know. There's a weird flavor. Not the hot or the spicier the sour. But tamarin. It's tamarind. Over top of it's tamarind and chili powder. Do you not like that Lucas powder? I like the chili powder. I like yeah, I like that. It's the tamarind, I think. You don't like tamarind? Yet another thing. All right, you have a color? Caller. Caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi there. This is Paul Rathelson from Underbelly in Brooklyn, and I have an idea in response to a question that you fielded in a previous
+
+[35:16] podcast. I also have a totally unrelated question. Nice. What would you rather have first? Your choice. Okay, so my idea, you were asking about home friendly ways of browning proteins after low temperature
+
+[35:30] cooking. Um, I just wanted to mention something that I've been doing. I don't think there's a new idea, but I don't hear about a lot of people doing it. Um, I just mix together a secret sauce of, uh, dextrose and baking soda, and just apply that to the protein before browning it, um, and it enhances my art reactions, and, uh, it can give you a really nice crust in, I think, less than half the time that it normally
+
+[35:56] takes, you must use, um, slightly less hot pan to do it in. Um, I don't know if that's something that you've experimented with. So, uh, you know, um, the baking soda as a basic, literally basic thing, um, it, you know, speeds um, my art reactions. So, um, and I think maybe even some non-my, some non, uh, Mayard Browning reactions. So they, obviously, like adding a reducing sugar is going to speed my
+
+[36:28] yard, and also it will literally caramelize, which speeds browning. And you're going to have the more basic environment.
+
+[36:37] So that's going to enhance browning. So this is the, a lot of people have done this with, um, or tested this. In fact, there's some, I think they were from the Netherlands, actually, going back to the last caller that used to do this on browned meats for things like ragouts or like
+
+[36:53] bolognese or something like this. Um, to enhance the browning of the meats, especially in situations where it's hard to get good browning because of excess
+
+[37:03] moisture. Like when you're doing ground meat in the bottom of a pot. Um, there's also, you know, obviously the, um, you know, chef steps
+
+[37:13] into modernist cuisine crew are very pro, uh, a little bit of baking soda in, um, in veg in a pressure cooker to enhance the kind of, uh, brown kind of cooked flavors that you get in those environments as well.
+
+[37:27] So it's known there. I've done some experimenting with meats that way years and years ago, but my problem with it has always
+
+[37:39] been, it's like very hard to get it such that you can't tell that there's been baking soda on the outside.
+
+[37:44] And you also have to put, or at least we always did, maybe we don't have to. You tell me, put some acid on it afterwards to neutralize
+
+[37:52] it and you can't get some weird kind of foamy effects, but maybe we were just overdoing it on the baking
+
+[37:56] soda, maybe by cutting it with a little bit of sugar. You also have to also worry if you have sugar on it, same way that if you're, like, you know, cooking with, um, any sugary glaze or soy-based thing that, like you said, you have to go with a lower temperature because
+
+[38:09] it's easy to scorch it such that it tastes burnt. You just have to be careful. The same way you would if you had like a marinade, like a teriyaki marinade or something. You have to be careful that you don't scorch it in a pan because it's easy to do. But have you noticed, have you noticed any sort of like basic or baking soda E kind of flavor or do you neutralize it with an acid afterwards? I haven't had to neutralize it. What I have done with some trial and error is really reduced the amount of baking soda that's in the mix. So, um, What I've done for a while is about a one to 5 ratio of baking soda to, um, dextrose. And, um, then really the only issue is if you sprinkle it on dry, it's easy to overdo it a little bit, um, and
+
+[38:54] also it doesn't really have much shelf life because it, it, uh, the, the glucose pulls moisture out of the air and gets
+
+[39:00] clumpy and then it starts to kind of, uh, my art eyes itself. Um, but uh, what I've just started doing, and uh, which, which is kind of promising is I make that same mix, and I disperse it in oil.
+
+[39:12] Um, so it's kind of dispersed in some neutral, uh, refined oil like safflower oil or something. doesn't dissolve, but it stays separate, and it stays apart from oxygen and moisture in the
+
+[39:26] air, and you just brush it on real lightly with the pastry brush. And so far, the couple of times I've done that, it's worked really well. So you just resuspend right before, just like reslurry it right before you're going to use it? Yeah, yeah. Like it stays, um, it stays a really nice consistency in the oil, um, and just like
+
+[39:42] coats the brush nicely, and you just put a little slather on after you've brought the meat, and bam. Um, I'll try it. Are you doing 5 to one? Yeah, you did say Bam, that happened. Yeah, you did, that happened. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, I'm still experimenting with the oil, but I think it's, I think it's promising, but, um,
+
+[40:04] I think it's definitely something to experiment with. You know, maybe you can improve upon the methods, but right now I'm pretty pleased with it. Yeah, I'll give it a try. tell you something else on the same thing that I've been experimenting with, you know,
+
+[40:15] it's out of curiosity. Um, so like a lot of, um, back in the day, the, you know, the issue with low temperature cooking, right, is that you want to put
+
+[40:26] a, a crust or a sear or whatever you want to call it, depending on what you're looking for on the outside of the protein relatively
+
+[40:32] quickly, so you don't undo all the good work that you've done with the low temperature cooking, right? I mean, that's the whole goal. So, um, you know, one of the issues with crust formation or searing in general is the fact that
+
+[40:43] uh, once you've cooked something, it no longer has good contact with the pan. So therefore, when you're pan searing, you tend to put oil on or in your case, you can brush oil on and that'll help make up for some of the fact that the meat is no longer raw when you're searing it,
+
+[40:57] right? And so this is all good practice. But it's also always been the main practice of everyone, and I recommended it and always have, that you get the pan screaming hot, right?
+
+[41:09] Screaming hot. And the idea being that the hotter the pan is, the kind of better off you're going to do. And in experiments that I've done, uh, in general, when I was using, but the thing is, is I did my experiments with extremely powerful equipment,
+
+[41:23] right? extremely powerful, thick pieces of cast iron, extremely powerful. I used a French gas powered crepe maker. Those things have some serious, serious, like it's seriously strong. So I don't know whether my numbers actually correlate as well as I would want to to a normal kind of a home situation.
+
+[41:44] My feeling is is that remember that the surface of the meat, it only needs to get above the kind of browning temperatures. So when you think mentally, right? What's the fastest way to cook to sear off this piece of meat? Well, it's either charring the hell out of it in a super intense grill situation, which is one kind of flavor. Or two, you know, deep fundamentally deep frying it. And I know people don't want to deep fry, but you can get such a good crust so quickly deep
+
+[42:12] frying, even though the oil is never really going above 360 degrees Fahrenheit.
+
+[42:18] And so that got me to think maybe you can actually get a good result in a pan, um,
+
+[42:24] By shallow frying, pan frying in a small amount of oil without making all of the smoke. And so last week, I actually did a test in my house where I seared a piece of meat in a
+
+[42:39] pan, uh, and I didn't turn my vents on. You know, I have good vents. I didn't turn my vents on to see whether or not my wife could complain and all this other stuff. So what I did was, is rather than heat the pan up to screaming, which is what I normally do, I
+
+[42:53] slowly, I put oil in the pan, cold, slowly heated the pan up to deep fryer
+
+[43:00] temperature, like 360, right? you know, like, you know, not maybe the whole pan had maybe half cup or something of oil in it. And then once it was at 360 and I had it kind of like settled. I let it kind of heat up the entire pan come up to that. Then I stuck my meat in, and then at that point, I cranked it up full so that I would input the amount of energy into the pan that was required to try to get the oil back to its high temperature and to try
+
+[43:29] to brown the meat, right? Then when I pulled it off to flip between sides, I let it come back up to temperature. I used an IR back up to 360, flipped the meat, did it again. Um, and then did it that way. So you weren't in this screaming hot pan, your oil never really gets that hot because it doesn't really help you to have the oil that hot. It just gets dangerous and makes a lot of smoke. And I was able to actually sear a piece of meat quite well, I think, in a kitchen environment without a vent. And I could smell the oil a little bit. I'm not going to lie, but, you know, I did it without a commercial deep fryer, without a vent. and I was able to get decent results. But I'll definitely want to check also, I'll re-look at this kind of, especially with the oil and the, and
+
+[44:13] the, uh, glucose is kind of, um, baking soda idea. What was your 2nd question? Uh, well, uh, follow-up on that? Do you have a lot of ETOs on your home stove? I do. I have a buttload. I have a pretty wussy stove, and so the reason I get things up screaming hot is I
+
+[44:31] just, I need to store up that energy because it takes my little burners a long time to get it into there.
+
+[44:38] I like to try your method, but I'm a little worried that it would just take a really long time for it to recover that heat. I have a really crappy stove that I have access to, like, really super garbage stove that I have access to that I want to try, but I won't be at that stove for another
+
+[44:53] like week and a half . So I'm definitely going to try it on a crappier stove. Um, what I what I'm really interested in doing, and I've been trying to figure out kind of the best way to do it is, um, I want to kind of measure, I want to come up with some kind of standard measures that everyone can do for their own equipment in their own stove,
+
+[45:11] right? So pretty much a ribeye is the size of a ribeye, you know, more or less in terms of its
+
+[45:16] face face area. You know, a porterhouse is roughly porterhouse size. I mean, it changes a little bit, but, you know, we can kind of guess or, you know, a filet, we can kind of guess. So what I want to do is I want to try to figure out some metrics, some test you can run that, and I'm trying to think, like, do I want to have someone boil water? And you don't have to do it if you don't want to, but just to kind of figure out not only how many BTUs, or because you might not have gas, right?
+
+[45:42] You might have electric, not only like how much heat is being used, but how much heat does your oven pan combination really put onto a piece of meat? Because that's the important point, right?
+
+[45:53] That's what really matters. And so, uh, I'm trying to, because when you do a pot, I mean, you're testing, when you're testing like burners, the typical test you would do is just put a pot on
+
+[46:05] and, uh, you know, see how fast it can boil water. Put a glass lid on it and see how fast it can boil water on one versus the other. And you do use the exact same pot, the exact same amount of water at the same temperature, the same
+
+[46:16] lid, and you can get a very good idea of kind of how long it takes.
+
+[46:21] So that's one measure, right? But then you can also test your evaporation rate. You could take the lid off and see over 5 minutes at full bore, how much has evaporated off, and it's very easy to do the math to figure out, okay, I boiled off, you know, X number of grams of, um, of water, once it came to a boil, the, uh, heat
+
+[46:41] of fusion, uh, or sorry, the heat of vaporization of water is Y. And this is how much energy was being dumped into the pan. The problem with that is, is that you have to, I think, run it with the pan that you're going to use, right? And so I'm trying to figure out what a, and once I have it, I'll, you know, I'll say what I do, but I'm trying to figure out, then you'll know exactly how effective your stove, your stovetop can be at these kind of,
+
+[47:06] um, at these tricks. But I want to, there's some minimum amount of energy you need to input into the oil to get it up to the temperatures to flash off enough liquid to get a good crust on a piece of meat, right?
+
+[47:18] I just haven't figured out those numbers yet, but this is just kind of what I'm experimenting with. Oh that's great. Dave, we got to wrap it up. Oh, man. Do you have a, do you have another quick question? You said you had 2 questions. Yeah, quick question. Um, I blog about uh, advanced ice cream
+
+[47:33] techniques, and a lot of what we talk about is using different sugars, and um, um, a lot of the recipes that I'm talking about and techniques use uh, invert sugar or uh, tremoline. Right. And a question that's been in the back of my head is, um, you know, when you're using crimoline in a solution like this, is there a functional difference between starting with
+
+[47:52] the syrup or just using a mix of powdered glucose and fructose?
+
+[47:57] once it goes into, once it goes into solution. Yeah, I mean, the trimolines at a very, it's very high, uh, very low liquids, right, compared
+
+[48:06] to so, but once it's in solutions, I shouldn't think that there's a difference. Yeah, it just seems, uh, it just seems like a really simple thing and I could not get anyone to, uh, could not find any information anywhere about that. It seems like, yeah, it shouldn't be any difference, but, uh, nothing talks about
+
+[48:24] that. And it's like, it's like easier to work with powders than to work with the group, you know? Yeah, but the goop is easy in large batches, right? When you're doing scaled out stuff in large batches, especially if it's written for that. They take the water weight into account. And so like when you're doing lots and lots of stuff and you don't want to have to make those solutions up, like having those like giant gallon buckets of
+
+[48:43] tremoline around or whatever they come in, you know, there may even be more than that. Um, you know what I mean? They, it can't, like, I liked having them around when I was at the French culinary. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, I mean, I talked to, I talked to a pastry chef about this, and he was like, well, maybe, but the question is interesting to me because I used tremoline for everything, and I don't use fructose for anything. So, he didn't care. Just from the standpoint of making smaller, moderate sized batches of ice cream. It's easier to measure, you know, measuring out these powders anyhow. Yeah, you had another, you had another situation. You had to weigh out one more powder than to, like, try to get this, the gunk off the spoon. Um, and the thing that can will eventually spoil in your fridge anyhow. Right, yeah, yeah, another scenario where like cooking at home and cooking like in a restaurant isn't always the same
+
+[49:32] problem. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. All right, well, thanks for calling in. Next week, I'm going to get Carlos to your question on sous vide cooking and Sirius Eats and Kenji versus Chef Steps. I find it very interesting. We'll talk about that next week. We'll get to Ron's curing chamber questions and more on
+
+[49:52] Mocktails from AK and just like a host of other interesting questions.
+
+[49:59] We got some ice questions in, but we'll get to him next time because we had callers and remember, callers always take preference cooking issues.
+
+[50:12] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter, enter your email at the bottom of our website,
+
+[50:28] heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[50:47] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for
+
+[0:04] Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, where a member supported food radio
+
+[0:15] network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn.
+
+[0:20] Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:28] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:40] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network broadcasting every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from a British
+
+[0:50] pizzeria in Bushwick. Joined as usual with Nastasia, the
+
+[0:54] Hammer, Lopez. how you doing, Stas? Today, we do not have Dave, Tasha Tor, a.k.a. Dinosaur in the booth. We have Victor, Victor, how you doing? Hello. You've been with us before. I forget. What do you like and don't like? What are your food likes and dislikes? Um, I like pretty much everything. Like we talked about last show. I'm Brazilian, so we kind of talked about rice and beans, but you know, I like meats. That's, like, kind of... So you're kind of like my son. I like meat and rice and beans and nothing. Nothing else. Middle Eastern food. My girlfriend is Lebanese, so I really love Lebanese food. Nice. Do you know that the by the way, we're also joined today by Peter Kim, the leader of the museum of food and
+
+[1:36] drink? Everyone loves to... Yeah, they, you know, they, they, the person everyone loves to hate. and also, my, my, my man... Do you prefer to be, what, you prefer to be hate to love? Yeah, yeah. All right. And we got Nick Wong, you know, currently
+
+[1:53] at what's your current title there at the Momofuku Sambar? The shift of cuisine. Chef to cuisine. Chef cuisine, but, you know, like, you know, worked with us back at the French culinary institute, I don't know, 8000000000 years. Sounds right. And, you know, has been lots of places. So if you have questions about how they do stuff at. Last time he was on the show, he didn't say anything. No, that was 2 times was 2 times ago. Yeah, has spent time stagging at Noma and a bunch of other places and working in California. So if you have any questions about working in San Francisco or in Mark
+
+[2:26] Den, Denmark or, you know, here in New York, he's also a little known fact, been mistaken many times for David
+
+[2:33] Chang. That's actually a widely known fact. Well, you know, among your friends, you know what I'm saying? So, like, been, like, constantly misrecognized as Dave Chang. So he just runs with it. You roll with it, right? I've signed a few menu. Yeah, you're like, you're like, make someone's night. You're also, you're like the body double when someone comes to assassinate Dave, they're going to take you down. Pretty much. Yeah, all right. I'll look same.com. Yeah. Wow. Well, interestingly, different ethnicities, Nick, and Dave. Yeah. I thought there was just the one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, what were we talking about? We're talking about some food Star Wars. We're talking about Star Wars. No, no, before that, Victor had mentioned some food stuff. Oh, Lebanese. So do you guys remember that old 24 hour Lebanese joint on house dinner closed down recently? Baroquette? Yeah, they had that, and like, and like, all I ever used to go, they would be screaming the same order constantly for that, like, have you had this victim, this, like, kind of Lebanese
+
+[3:29] pizza-like thing? Oh, yeah. Lamajan. And then we'd like La Machan, la Machan, la Machan. I was like, it was my equivalent of like cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger from the, what's it called from Saturday Night Live. But, yeah, another New York landmark, gone. Yeah. Uh, and joined by special guests from Chef's debts. Chris Young on the phone. How you doing, Chris? I'm great. are you, Dave? Doing all right. So, yeah, so we got a full group of people. We got a bunch of questions, and you want to, you want to do any sort of pitcher, pre-roll here, Chris? Yeah, if you haven't gotten tool, you should go to chefsteps.com and check it out. And we're going to have some really cool new updates coming for jewel owners in the very near future. I'm really excited. I can't talk about it yet, but uh, Douglas Baldwin, a bunch of the math guys have been doing some really cool stuff. So, uh, and as have the app team, so there will be major new updates for those of you who are dual owners coming out uh, in April. So for those of you that don't know, Jewel is the immersion circulator by
+
+[4:28] chef steps, and, you know, you run it via smartphone, Android or what's it
+
+[4:36] called, Apple, the one I have. Your iPhone, or you can use Alexa with, you can do it all voice controlled and hand-free, which is great when your hands are covered with goo. I've actually seen that I saw freaking Kenji Lopez Altgo. He literally was like, Alexa, turn on my jewel to 57
+
+[4:54] degrees, Celsius. And she was like, okay, Kenji. And I was like, what planet do I live? Like, I somehow fell asleep and woke up on a different planet. You know what I mean? It's like, but yes, it actually works. I saw it in, you know, and the Alexa turned on from across, I mean, that jewel turned on from across the room. But the other cool thing about it, very small form factor. Uh, and basically like waterproof with like a magnet on it. So you don't need to worry about, you know, you don't need to worry about, like, a lot of my circulators have water damage in the electronic
+
+[5:25] areas and I used to have to tell people all the time how to mitigate the disaster that happens when that idiot drops the circulator into the bucket, which
+
+[5:33] mean, how many times have you seen that happen, Nick? I've seen worse happen. to circulators. I've seen them like drop on the floor. You've seen what have you seen? What's worse than dropping in water? dropping in soup? No, I told an extra, and, hey, you know, wrap up the top with a little bit of plastic to maintain the temp, bring it up faster. Walk away. I come back like 30 minutes later. He's wrapped the entire thing in plastic. The entire circulator is just wrapped up in plastic along with all the
+
+[5:57] water and it's just steaming out and killing itself. Well, that's amazing. I love that. But isn't this... That's an IQ test. But you know what it is, Chris? And you've been in, like, lots of high-pressured kitchen situations, and Nick, obviously, like both of you have your pedigree with, let us
+
+[6:15] say, mercurial folk in the kitchen, right? You know, because, you know, Chris was, you know, many years ago was running the Fat Duck
+
+[6:23] Kitchen, uh, what was your title there? You were also, were you, were you, were you chef to cuisine or were you on research side? What was your title of it? I was the, I was the, uh, the head chef of the Fat Deck experimental kitchen. All right, okay. So, right safe to say people get agitated at there, right? Yeah, the tempers might have gotten raised a few times. Yeah, so here's a theory I have about cooking in, like, professional cooking people in
+
+[6:46] general, is that, like, for some people that, like, hyper, like, I get it. You have to be hyper on edge and on point when you're a perfectionist and everybody can screw it up and everyone has to be on point all the time. But then when you get knuckleheads in, they're so frightened because of the way everyone acts, that they're like, I will just literally follow,
+
+[7:04] I will not ask, because if I ask, I will be decapitated, blah, blah, blah. And then you get this kind of crap happening. I wonder whether your food actually ends up more ruined than
+
+[7:13] not because you freak the hell out of that person as soon as they show up in the door. What do you guys think? My personal thought is, the more you can get someone to relax, the better off they'll do when it comes to food. Right, but it's a fine line, right? So, like, you know, famously, like Nick Wong, when his 1st week working at Sambar, like 8000000000 years ago, like, uh, totally messed up the family meal, like, ruined it, like, burnt it, like, crispy, crispy, ruined, burnt, like, so, uh,
+
+[7:45] Chris, just for in a picture in your head, entire, like, uh, couple hotel pans of braids where the liquid had run out.
+
+[7:53] So you got that in your head. So it's like, it's all ruined. It's ruined. And so like, and Chang happened to be in the kitchen that day. And so normally you would get completely eviscerated for something like that, but Chang happened to catch the look of horror on Nick's face as he opened the thing and realized that there was so much internal self-punishment happening
+
+[8:15] that like any external punishment would have been just superfluous. You know what I mean? So that's what you want to, like, instill in people that, like, internal of self-abuse. Like that's what it is self-loathing, self-abuse. That's what makes a good cook is like this self-abuse, self-loathing thing. You know what I mean? I can't believe you remember that. Absolutely. That's why I still self flagellate every night. Yeah, right? Yeah. So anyway, I think so, if you're looking for someone... If you're looking for someone and you want them to be a good cook, like if they're like super, the reason I think that chefs hate super confident people isn't that just that they're snot nose,
+
+[8:51] right? And, like, and, like, think they know more than they do, it's that they don't give off the feeling that they're punishing themselves
+
+[8:57] enough. You know what I'm saying? It's like you gotta, you gotta, you want that punishment, that self-punishment. It shows them that you care. But I think like, but I think you need to apply a lot less external punishment if you can engender in people or find people who will punish themselves.
+
+[9:18] That's easier said than done, yeah. And look, you know, it's, you want people that are driven, that are,
+
+[9:26] uh, that are reliable and that push themselves hard. The problem is, you know, you're mostly dealing with like 19 to 25 year
+
+[9:32] olds and some people haven't. A lot of people at 19 to 25 are flaky and not worth your time. So, like, that's the challenge is like sorting out the ones who are going to work versus the ones who are just going to flake out.
+
+[9:43] All right. Well, but do you think you can, do either of you actually think that you can take someone who doesn't have that sort of internal drive and actually get that drive into them? Or is it just you're like winning or losing on the margins based on what's already there when they show
+
+[10:00] up? You could teach skills, you can teach, you can teach etiquette, you could teach all of these things. But can you really teach someone to give a crap? Or, I mean, obviously being surrounded by other people that give a crap helps people to give a crap more. And if you're even someone who comes in giving a crap, if everyone around's a joker, they stop giving a
+
+[10:17] crap. But can you really train someone to give a crap? Doesn't mean you stop trying. don't know. What do you think, Chris? I'd say my success with that is pretty marginal. Um, and and, you know, these days, I don't have the time for it. So if you're not going to care, I'm not going to invest my time. How about this? How about training? Obviously people show up and they don't have skill and they can acquire skill, right? But you, this is another thing. You meet people, you know that X, Y, Z person's never going to get fast. You know what I'm talking about? Because they don't have this like kind of sense of urgency. Do you think you can train sense of urgency in the kitchen? Yeah, I think that, I think that's, that's learnable if you care. I mean, you know, I remember when I 1st got to the fat duck as a stage air, I was like sewing over my head, I was always in the weeds, but, you know, I came earlier. I say later, I put the time in and people help people who help themselves. So, yeah, you can learn that sense of urgency. I don't know, Nick, you had a little like a little bit of a vegan face on. What do you, you don't think you can train speed or not speed, but urgency, right? Speed comes, your ability to be fast comes with practice. Your ability to understand that the food needs to get out right now. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people come into the kitchen, especially new people. Like, they don't have that sense of urgency. They don't understand why it is. And then it's up to you to explain to them why it's important and to show
+
+[11:41] them, like, listen, everybody else here is running circles around you and you're dragging the rest of the team down.
+
+[11:46] So pick it up or else we got to find somebody else. Or they're going to hate you and, you know, Ganky with a Shiv, but yeah. So, but when you know,
+
+[11:55] it's like, I wish there was some, there's got to be some way to help people other than this kind
+
+[11:59] of like prison mentality. You know what I mean? There's got to be some non-prison mentality way. I mean, look, what? You just got to treat everybody. Oh, this is just me. But I like to cheat all my staff as individuals to try to figure out what makes them tick. Once you find, like, what makes them tick and you make that connection, it's a lot easier to get them to do what you want because now it's, they're not doing what you want. They do what they want to do, which also aligns with what you want them to do. Right. I mean, it's an interesting, It's an interesting problem. It takes a lot more time and effort and patience a lot of patience. Right. I mean, they're kind of like, yeah, I mean, the prison mentality thing comes with the low pay and the need to get everyone up
+
+[12:43] in operational quick, but it's just, I think it's really long run pernicious. I really think it's long run pernicious. Don't like it. Uh, okay, well, so, Chris, uh, do you want to, like, are you, so coming
+
+[12:54] out with a new jewel? Oh, that's what we're talking about. So the jewel doesn't have these problems, even if your knucklehead intern, overwrapped, uh, the jewel, the jewel would not have any problems with that. Theoretically, you can dishwash it, right? You don't tell people you can, but you theoretically can, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, we didn't go through the rigorous certification to say this thing is like
+
+[13:15] submersible and, and frankly, we don't think that's a great idea, but if you drop it in the water, if you throw it in a sink, if you threw it in a dishwasher, that's not
+
+[13:23] going to break it. It's a stupid ass thing to do, but it's not going to break it. What about if you throw it at your chef? Will it break? You know, we do the 3 foot drop test and it survives pretty well. So if you hit the chef in the chest, it'll be okay. You know, if you're, it's sturdy enough though, you're probably going to end up going to prison for assault. Ah, ah, so is it the new like, remember when mag lights, they used to be like, not only is it a flashlight, but you could beat the
+
+[13:48] crab ladder people with it. Remember that back in the day and you would buy your mag light based on how many decells it had in it? You have the giant 4D cell, you know, mag? That's exactly what I was going for when we designed it. I wanted that sort of sturdiness. You could clock someone over the head with it. So, in other words, like, if you have a bunch of jewels in your kitchen, you don't need to have the baseball bat behind the
+
+[14:07] bar, like we always do. No, you can just clock them at the end of jewel. There you go Yeah, it's metal. It's very nicely machine metal thing on the end. Solid Ford stainless steel. Those parts aren't going to ding. Yeah, that's sweet, man. Yeah, and just a note, like unlike a lot of, uh, a lot of other, uh, you know, circulators that you
+
+[14:26] see or any piece of equipment, really. Uh, all the parts are basically, um, subassemblies that you get from other people, whereas the Julia took the interesting kind of step of of kind of custom engineering, everything from maximum density, almost like an iPhone mentality of design.
+
+[14:40] You know what I mean, in terms of like, yeah. There's out of 37 parts and jubal, the only off the shelf part is one is the single screw that's inside it. So, yeah, everything's custom engineered. We even engineered the manufacturing process and the robots that build it. So we kind of went overboard. Yeah, have you visited your robot army? I just got back. I was in China earlier this month, so I got to go to Shanghai and Sujo and all over. So yes, I was visiting the robot army and I, you know, I want more robots. Yeah, everybody wants more robots. Man, you're lucky. You get to go to a good food town. I get to go to Shenzhen when I go to China. Not that Shenzhen's bad people. I mean, but it's no Shanghai. You know what I'm saying? I'll say it. Shenzhen is terrible. Don't go. Wow. So, like, if you're going to compare Shenzhen to a US city, what would it be? Uh, Detroit. is way more productive than Detroit. Wow, roughing up on everybody. Wow. All right. So what do you do? Like, is it like Dallas? Yeah, you know, at the risk of like sales are going to plummet now in Texas, but, um, you know, it's huge. Like all of those cities are absolutely massive and and it's hard to get a sense of scale. Like, you think that New York City is big, but like, New York City wouldn't be that big of a city by China standard. No, Shenzhen would swallow it. And, you know, Shenzhen's really, really productive, but, you know, it's dirty. Um, it's dirty and it's chaotic and people are busy like building shit and garages and everything. So, I don't know, I guess it's like Detroit during the glory days of manufacturing cars. It sounds like New York, but New York doesn't have anyone building anything. Oh, boom, New York. We can't you can't get anything built here. Chris, have you ever tried to get something built in New York City? such a nightmare. It's like impossible to do everything. I can't, I cannot imagine it's worse than trying to get something built in France, which was, which was my unenviable task
+
+[16:38] at the fat duck. Oh my god. Yeah. So we're we're beating up on Detroit. Texas, China, in particular. France, New York. Who else have we not insulted yet? We can insult everybody. Anyway. Okay, wait, but do you want to say anything specific before we just answer questions, some of which involve chef
+
+[16:58] steps and some of which are sous vide related? No, nothing specific. I'm just, you know, happy to take any questions your your callers communities have. All right, so listen, this is your chance to talk to Chris Young about any sort of either chef step oriented
+
+[17:12] thingamajig or any sort of jewel related thingamajig, which I guess is a chef. Or if they want to talk about modernist or the fat
+
+[17:19] duck? you know, whatever. You have my time. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. All right. So, uh, so we got Carlos writing in, and this is something that, you know, all of us, except for Peter, Peter has nothing to say about this.
+
+[17:33] No, I'm kidding. First of all, I hope all is well with you. That's why I love you. If you hate yourself, I love you. That's how it works. I hope all is well. And that Dave, that's me, enjoyed my trip to El Paso. I did. We didn't get to talk that much. Juarez is actually pretty cool, even though no one goes there. I mean, like, Juarez is like not, I mean, Juarez, like, if you're going to take Shenzhen or Juarez, I would take Juarez. They have more velvet paintings in Juarez than they do. Yeah, Peter was also with me and Waters. is a good town, right? How many velvet paint have you been to Shenzhen? I saw 0 velvet paintings in Chen? That was a pretty sweet painting you picked up on the street there. Oh, hell yeah. Juarez was the velvet velvet painting capital of the world. for a long time. Do you like velvet paintings, Nick Wong? Yes. Chris, are you a fan of velvet paintings? My entire house is outfitted with velvet paintings of Elvis. this is why I like you. Okay. I'm writing to get Dave's take on putting oil or fat into the bag when cooking with an immersion circulator.
+
+[18:32] My main question, and Chris, think about this, because I don't know if you've thought about this. Uh, my main question is about flavor dilution. In his guide to sous vide steak, Kenji Lopez
+
+[18:43] alt, says he tested with olive oil and butter, and that they diluted the flavor by pulling fat soluble flavor compounds from the aromatics, uh, and the beef into the bag liquid, which is then typically
+
+[18:53] discarded. Curiously, his chicken breast post doesn't mention adding fat at all and only discussing aromatics. However, in his halibut and salmon post, he does say that halibut flesh absorbs flavor better than land meat and adding fat will prevent multiple portions from fusing together. Meanwhile, now we're talking about you. The chef step guys preach that fat should always be added to the bag. It seems their main reasons for this are presentation. No corner of the bag deforming the food, no aromatic stamping the food and washing away, and the ability to wash away the albumen from the salmon. It seems kind of obvious that different foods will take different preparations. But I'm curious as to Dave, i.e. my take, especially with regards to flavor dilution. Thanks again. Looking forward to the next booker in Dax and the low temp book. All right, I'll give you my point of view. First of all, I've never done a triangle test with meat that has
+
+[19:41] had, you know, like butter or, you know, in it versus not. I will say this. Well, it's not true. I've done it with oil, like heavily flavored oil, definitely adds a flavor to things like salmon. There's no freaking question that it's true. But on a steak, I've never really noticed a difference in a taste of a steak between with butter or without butter. I've also tasted the butter that I've used and the oil I've used from the bag, and yes, it will take on
+
+[20:08] your whatever rosemary or your garlic or any of that, onions, aliens, it will pick up. It doesn't taste, especially meaty. So I'm very, very, not a big believer that you're going to dilute the flavor of your meat overly much with the oil. I just don't buy it. And Kenji specifically doesn't mention that he did a triangle test. It was more, I think, kind of theoretical in him thinking that this was an effect. I will say this. If you're using the zippy technique to put, you know, to fill your bat, you need oil because you need something that's liquid that's in the bag.
+
+[20:41] straight up, you need it. And when you're doing a hard vacuum in a vacuum bag, unless your product is frozen, the bag's
+
+[20:48] going to squish the hell and make ugly pillow shapes on your meat if you don't have some sort of fat in the bag. And that really is the only reason to do it other than you have this fat leftover that you can use for other things. Exception, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. what's your take on it, Chris? So, you know, Kenny's a really smart guy, so I'm hesitant to disagree, but I'm going to go, yeah, I didn't see a triangle test. So whenever a chef, and even if it's me or it was Heston, it's
+
+[21:13] like if there's not a triangle test, and you haven't done it a couple times, and somebody's making a pretty bold claim like that, I'm inherently suspicious.
+
+[21:19] Here's the other thing that I, that I know that, you know, there's this idea of diluting flavor, adding flavor, but that's not really how humans perceive flavor, and there's a misunderstanding
+
+[21:29] that like more concentration means more flavor. That's not really true. What the sensory scientists have shown is what humans are really good at is detecting how quickly the aroma aromatic molecules, the rate of change, like how quickly it goes from 0 to 100
+
+[21:43] and back to zero. We don't detect absolute concentrations. So the idea that you can pull all of the steaky flavor out and dilute it into the butter. like even if the concentration were go to go down a little bit. When you bite into that steak and start chewing it, the rate of the rate of change, the steaky flavor is going to go through the roof no matter what. So, I'm pretty skeptical. Um, you know, I'm willing to do the triangle test, but I think the benefits of better appearance, having some fats in the bag that I can use to make a pan
+
+[22:14] sauce, um, I think that outweighs any risk that you're somehow reducing the
+
+[22:20] meaty impact of the state. Right. And it's 100% true that if you bag raw meat without any sort of liquid
+
+[22:27] fat, that it distorts and makes ugly shapes on the meat.
+
+[22:31] And it's also 100% true that if you could mitigate that by vacuuming less, but then you have air pockets,
+
+[22:37] which like can make little nasty. You ever notice how sometimes with an air pocket, especially when your temperatures are pretty low and there's oxygen touching the meat, you'll get a weird discolored area where that air pocket was,
+
+[22:46] Chris? Yeah absolutely. I mean, it doesn't really matter because you're going to postseer it, but I just don't like it because that color also indicates that there's possible oxidation going on there, which does actually
+
+[22:55] affecting whatever. I know it's not, that's not a big deal either. So I'm not going to make a big point about how that, but in general, I don't like it. And if you're using zippies, which is 99.9% of what I do, you're using zippies,
+
+[23:07] then you have to have fat. I will say this, though. I do it the other way a lot. Like if I buy meat that's already in the cryo, Chris, you're
+
+[23:16] going to get really mad at me. Like if I don't have a lot of time, I'll just toss the freaking market cryo into
+
+[23:21] the into the circulator and go with it. I know I probably shouldn't. Yet I, I do. No, that's totally fine. Like, you know, especially if you're just trying to get dinner on the table, like, don't let perfection be the enemy of like done. There you go. There you go. And especially because like a lot of you, if you're going to go out and you're going to get a steak, you're going to get a high value cut and a lot of high value cuts at like higher
+
+[23:41] end like butchers are pre-portioned from the supplier. So if you're getting like a Lafrita or or one of these like weird Pmontese cuts or any one of these things. A lot of those, like the ribs, the strips, and the porterhouses come pre-portioned in the cryo, and I'll tell you, this is true. things that are in cryo, not frozen. I actually did a test recently of from Frozen in from Store Cryo, but the
+
+[24:09] couple tests. But, um, there is something in a, in, in what's nicely called wet age. Let's give it a nice term, wet aging, right? And all everyone here knows that when you open a cryo bag on fresh meat, that it's got that cryo bag smell to it. Chris, you know what I'm talking about. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and that's my favorite smell in the world. No, it goes away. You know what I mean? Like, and so I've tested that, like, the searing knocks that stuff out. It's no longer perceptible, as long as it's not bad. It's no longer perceptible. And there have been several scientific studies on the smell of cryobagged, uh, cryobagged meat when it comes
+
+[24:49] out. And all of them have shown fairly rigorously that having it out of the bag for a while, just 30 minutes out of the bag without
+
+[24:57] cooking will remove that smell. But searing it, knocks it out. So don't worry overly much about that. Would you agree or disagree, Chris? I mean, I agree. I'm actually wondering if those smell, those, the smell, the aromatic molecules actually reactorates here and you actually get a better sear from it. I've never tried. Maybe they're like, they're like mild anaerobic bacterial bull crabs is what they are. like non-spoilage bacterial bullcraps. If I get, if I remember, which you know I won't, I'll forward you the papers. Oh, I'd love to see the papers. We should call it meat coji and make it a thing. Well, you know, we're going to have pretty soon on from our cook quest from Boston, who puts Koji on everything. It's going to come on, so we're able to talk about it. We got a caller. Call her, you're on the air. Hey Dave, how are we doing? Doing all right. What do you got for us? All right, I'm AJ. I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. I have a couple questions about lemon curd for you. Okay. The 1st one is, I'm going to use lemon curd as a cake filling and wedding cake, and I want it to be a little bit thicker than I normally would make it, but they're looking for something a little less rich and a little less sweet.
+
+[26:02] I've already reduced the sugar, and I'm wondering what kind of jell agents you might recommend for something, a little bit looser than like a Jell-O consistency, by that
+
+[26:11] lice and not run, because I have to kind of keep the yolk, the yolk and sugar level down, so I can't take a name
+
+[26:18] of that. Yeah. So, I'm going to let Chris, because Chris did a bunch of experiments on Kurds for modernist cuisine back in the day, so I'm going to let him chime in in a second. I will say this. Anytime someone says they want it less sweet, they probably don't actually have a reference in their head. Like, lemon curd in certain tart applications is incredibly sweet, but other lemon curds are not that sweet at all,
+
+[26:39] but whatever. I mean, like, I don't like thinking a lot about having to worry about custards if they're right or wrong, if I'm doing a
+
+[26:46] one off. So in general, I just, like, I just cheat and I'll probably, I would probably use something like, like, I would probably just fluid gel
+
+[26:52] it because that's what I, that's just the way I would roll. I would probably gel and fluid gel it. But Chris probably has an actual way to make the custard work. Chris, what do you think? Um, so, I, you know, just lemon curd, you know, my immediate reaction goes to pectin. Like, fluid Jell-O totally work, and if this was the fat duck again, I'd be busting out the Jell and F,
+
+[27:11] then, you know, uh, fluid gelling it up. But, uh, you know, the acid and lemon kind of makes things difficult, but pectin's going to be easy and it's got great flavor
+
+[27:20] release and, you know, it's readily available and if you really want to go low sugar, which is going to mean it's going to be sour as
+
+[27:27] heck. You can get the low sugar, um, acted in grocery stores that they sell
+
+[27:33] for like low sugar jams and jellies. Is that that's an LMO pectin? That's low metoxy? Yeah, that's LM pectin, and it'll work fine in lemon curd, and, you know, you get a really nice texture and just can bring the sugar way down if you want. Do you have a recipe for that on chest steps anywhere? an LM custard? Not on chef steps, and I'm trying to pull up ancient history of some 2200 page book that I was involved
+
+[27:56] in. There is going to be a lemon curd recipe in volume 4 in the fluid gel
+
+[28:06] section. But my recollection is it is uh, uh, it's going to be uh, probably an Agar fluid gel, which isn't actually what I do now. I, I, I get some pectin and do just a little bit of experimenting. And if you just, uh, uh, If you just basically follow a jelly recipe, um, and maybe cut the concentration of the pectin in
+
+[28:28] half. I think you're going to get something that's going to work for you. Right, but you're doing you're not doing post injection, right? You're doing you're doing bake in place, no? Like putting putting baked inside? Sorry, one more time. Are you doing like a post injection or are you doing like the Betty Crocker style putting baked inside action thing where it
+
+[28:46] like comes out of the oven with the crap inside of it? Oh, no, bacon all the layers separately, um, makes the fillings and... Oh, yeah, man, golden. Go make like a make a jelly style, like Chris is saying, if you want to go, if you want to go, you know, try to tweak it out, use
+
+[29:01] a low M pecked in, otherwise just fluid gel the hell out of that thing, and then it's
+
+[29:05] gonna stay like, it'll like the next ice age will come and go and your your custard will be fine. You know what I mean? Yeah, hecton also seems like a good cheap option as well. And then a real quick, the lemon curd, but not for the same application, if I'm making Meyer lemon curd, and I want to can it, how would you recommend I boost the
+
+[29:22] acidity, so that way it's a bit safer for the show? It's of acid. Just citric acid? Yeah, my like the acidity in Meyer Lemon is just a more it's a less aggressive amount of citric
+
+[29:35] acid and there's, you know, there are minor other acidic constituents in lemon,
+
+[29:40] but, I mean, citric acid. Chris, you don't know the acidity off the top of your head of Meyer Lemon D. I do not. No, and it's going to it's going to vary, but unless you want to pressure can it, which I don't
+
+[29:52] recommend. Um, you know, I would, I would add just a little bit of citric acid or if you don't want to go get pure citric acid, just blend in some normal lemon juice to get the pH low enough that you can, uh, you can actually sous vide
+
+[30:05] can it. We've got a bunch of content coming out on that, but if you, uh, if you cook it, uh, um, in a jar right in a sous vide
+
+[30:11] bath, you can, uh, you can actually pasteurize it long enough to make it shelf staple with sous vide. And that way you don't have to go as high a temperature, so you're not going to get that cooked citrus flavor as much. The only issue with lemon juice is lemon juice is, lemon juice is 6% acidity, whereas citric, straight citric acid is like 100% acidity, and they sell it in
+
+[30:31] the stores. I mean... All right, perfect. Gotcha. Well, that's all I had for today. I just got food lab as a Christmas gift, or as a birthday gift brother, and I'm stoked about that, and the jewel is going to be my next kitchen. So I'm really happy, especially to catch you guys on air. Thank you very much for your help. Michael, hey, Chris, that stuff's in stock right now, right? Sorry, say what? Jules in stock right now? Oh, yeah, it's in stock. If you order it, it will be at your house within 3 days. Nice. Awesome. Right on. And if you ask one of your, if you ask somebody who has a jewel, they can give you a referral coupon right from every app that they open the, or even if you download the app and create an account, you can get a referral
+
+[31:15] coupon that'll save you 20 bucks if you order it from chefsteps.com. Even better. Nice. Good tip. We'll be right back with the whole gang and cooking issues.
+
+[31:36] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time.
+
+[32:06] Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[32:14] gets you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
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+[32:18] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[32:33] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E.
+
+[32:46] And we are back, but unfortunately for you guys. Well, maybe fortunately, I'm reading another piece of advertisement to you. Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[33:05] Professional chef, home cook, food enthusiast, no matter what your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere
+
+[33:15] else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry, the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchenalchemy blog at blog.modernestpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools.
+
+[33:41] All right, now, and if that wasn't enough advertising, Peter Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. Oh, wow, this is a great setup, Dave. So everybody's very enthusiastic to hear about this, but we've got the Mofad
+
+[33:53] spring gala coming up on April 13th. We have a good crew coming in. Got Gail Simmons hosting Marcus Samuelson's cooking. We've got, uh, we're honoring Ruth Rishel, and uh, it's coming up on April 13th. We've got some schmuck doing cocktails. I hate that guy. What's his name? Eugene. No one knows my middle name. Yeah, yeah, I know. Now they do. The man with 31st names, David Eugene Arnold coming in to make cocktails. Yeah. So, yeah. So anyway, we're celebrating immigrant food cultures and details at benefit.mofed.org. And, uh, it's 750. So it's... Not $7.50 when I 1st saw it, I'd be like, bargain. Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely a pretty penny, but it definitely, it's, in my estimation, the best dining event in the city. And, oh, yes. Okay, you're really selling it there, Peter. Lots of peaches. Yes, yes. And it, you know, of course, most importantly supports the exhibits and programs of the museum of food and drink, which is something that I think you care a little bit about, Dave. I care a lot about that. So one more thing I have to get out of my head because I just got told about this. I haven't seen it, but apparently Nick Wong was featured on a documentary about Noma, where they walk up to Nick Wong as part of the
+
+[35:14] kitchen and he's chopping veg, he's chopping veg at a station, and the camera person, this made it into the documentary, walks up, puts a microphone, like at Nick's face, doesn't look
+
+[35:26] up. He's still chopping veg, and the person goes, so would you like to say something about what it's like to work at Noma? He goes, nope. And keep slicing veg. Slightly and slightly exaggerated. Yeah, it's just a YouTube video. Do you know the, there's this food walker named Duck Scones? Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, ducks on the guy. He was he was at Noma doing a little like video tour of Noma. It wasn't a documentary.
+
+[35:55] Oh, where? I'm still gonna cut your head off. I can't wait. I deserve it. All right. So anyway, I love that. Nope. All right. Chris, here's another good one for you, all right? You still there, Chris? Yep, I'm here. All right. I got a good one for you on Shocking, which is from the modern, like a modernist cuisine. I don't know whether it was, it's while you were there, I think. I was perusing some of the old blog topics for Modernist Cuisine today and ran across an article on heat shocking produce. Uh, so what they do is, is they, they put into a
+
+[36:31] bag or, or you don't need to. So like asparagus or asparagus is 2 or 3 minutes at 131 F,
+
+[36:37] broccoli is like 7 to 8 minutes at like a 117 F, which is 47 C, and cantaloupe is like 60 minutes at like 50 degrees
+
+[36:45] C, and so on. a whole bunch of things that they recommend. But it's basically to kill off the enzymes and stuff like that. And McGee did something on that for berries to preserve berries for longer. So like, so what do you, what do you, what do you think about that? So yeah, I was involved in some of that. And, you know, this came out of some academic papers that we pulled that was looking at, like, how do you keep berries pressure for longer? And, uh, you know, I don't think the mechanisms were were entirely understood. I certainly don't think we at modernist cuisine understood exactly what the mechanisms were. I don't know if the academic literature has resolved it, but these low temperature heat checking didn't so much destroy and
+
+[37:24] denature, and as rather, it kicked sort of, it kicked them into high gear. And so that could both accelerate ripening, but it also seemed to accelerate sort
+
+[37:33] of, um, uh, the production of some of the chemical byproducts that keep like any bacteria on the surface from rotting the fruit or veg. So you could take things like fresh berries, briefly, thermal
+
+[37:46] shocked them at pretty low temperatures, like not enough to cook them or change their texture.
+
+[37:50] Um, but all of a sudden they would have like a 6 or an 8 week shelf like. Like, you know, if you get like raspberries, and you have them, you know, you have them on your counter. they're going to get a little, get a bunch of molds and stuff growing on them pretty quick. If you heat if you heat shock them, um, you're essentially going to prevent that. They're going to be fine for a really long time in your fridge or even on your counter, and it seems to be a combination of you're weakening a lot of the molds and yeast and surface bacterias on the fruit, and you're also sort of putting
+
+[38:23] the fruits enzymatic system into overdrive so it can protect itself. And it happens bypart, because for some fruit and veg, It also accelerates the ripening. So like melons and stuff. Um, you know, especially the cantaloupes that we tend to get in the United States that are as solid as a boulder. They'll soften up. They'll get a lot more aromatic. they'll get fruitier, which, you know, is a nice outcome too. Well, the, an interesting flip side to that is the, the mango people tell me that, so all mangoes that get imported into the U.S.
+
+[38:56] or, or shipped across state lines, for that matter, have to go through a, a hot water cycle to kill any fruit fly larva that are present. Uh, and I don't remember what the exact uh, temperature. I imagine that's going to be a really hot dip, something, you know, 72 Celsius. Yeah, there's, there's a couple different procedures. I just don't remember what they are, but they say it stops any further climacteric ripening. Uh, yeah, I mean, this is one of these things where the thermal shocking of the fruits that enhanced ripening and prevented, uh, uh, sort of decay. Those are really low temperatures. Most of the temperatures were well below 50 degrees Celsius. You know, the USDA, if they're basically saying, hey, we don't want fruit by love run. I don't think they're putting too much nuance into like, hey, let's not damage the flavor of this mango too much why we deal with these fruit flies. I think they're going to be like, put that shit in some boiling water before you ship it anywhere, be damned if the mango tastes like shit. Right. I don't know. It's weird That's why, like, if you want like a good mango, you have to go down to in the US, you have to go down to Florida and get it. Oh, what? at the, at the ranch. Yeah, at the Fairchild. Right. Or at like Robert is here, which is like there. I think those guys are allowed to sell untreated mangoes, um, because it's not crossing state lines, you know, well, or at least as far as they know, you know what I mean? Like, but, you know, I don't know, like, what kind of like crazy fruit flies are going to come live in New York? I guess that's not, who knows? I could get some crazy fruit fly. I hate Did I tell you about my idea, Chris? Like, you know how, like, when the, you know how when the Department of Health comes to, like, bar a restaurant, and if you use speed
+
+[40:36] pores, or even if you don't, if they're not that smart, they take flashlights and flash them into the bottom of your bottles to make sure that you don't have fruit flies in your liquor bottles, right?
+
+[40:43] You seen this. So I want to actually get a droophilia culture going and fill a bottle with fruit flies and do a fruit fly infusion where the fruit flies have been raised on food grade food.
+
+[40:56] It's all food grade, like everything is like closed and there's serve shots of like fruit fly liqueur and see whether or not I get a point for each fruit fly in that
+
+[41:05] bottle. That's like, you know, 8000000 points against the restaurant. I was going to say this this totally sounds like a road to success. Yeah, right? I'd be like, uh, sir or Madam, uh, I put the fruit flies in there on purpose, you know, try to count
+
+[41:23] them if you can. Like what's the maximum number of points anyone's ever received? This would be like far in excess of that. Like, literally, like, I could have maybe 10 to the 5th points on my, uh, on my health inspection, which would be amazing, right?
+
+[41:39] But the only way you would is if you keep them what? Food grade? Everything food grade? Like, in other words, like, I would have to, like, the argument would be, like, these were raised in, like, you know,
+
+[41:48] a completely closed culture environment on, like, you know, sugar water from the domino sugar corporation inside of an NSF certified holding tank. Like, it's like, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. know what I mean? And it's like, I think it's like, a way to demonstrate that you'd have to take a big, like, quart container and just chug the whole thing of fruit flies. Well, I would get horribly drunk, Peter. That's like a lot of liquor. I would shake a cocktail with it and drink it. You know what I mean? But like, or maybe do a shot, you know, fruit fly shot. Do you think they have a flavor? I'm sure they do I don't think crickets have much of a flavor. I mean, ants taste like things. Ants taste like things, but
+
+[42:27] ants ants have lots of chemical defense mechanisms too. Yeah, they're venom. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. So anyway, anyone out there wants to try it. Let me know what happens when the health inspector shows up. By the way, before I do the next question, I know we're going to run out of time, but Nastasia Lopez did not realize that Star Wars characters are racist.
+
+[42:47] I knew the one. Which one? Which one? The one you were imitating, Peter. Oh, yeah. You didn't do Char Jar, did you? No, no, Jar Jar is the worst. No, I was talking about the wingman. No, no, the co-pilot for Landown Taurisian. Oh, now I can picture him. does he talk? Like, oh, dude, we know, Lilia. Like, something like that. I don't know what I don't know. I couldn't really... Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, Lando was also the victim of stereotyping. Well, yes, I mean, what I mean? Because, like, you wish they had chosen a white guy to run Cloud City? What wrong with you? No, because like there's like 2 black guys in all of Star Wars, episodes four,
+
+[43:24] five, and six, right? Basically. I mean, Darth Vader, you know, I mean, obviously, inside. Accounting James Earl Jones? Lando. Yeah. And then and Lando. And, I mean, Lando backstabs Hans, right?
+
+[43:37] Well, he was forced to. Don't you remember? Like, that was not the deal. I've altered the deal. Pray, I don't alter any further, which is what I say to Dax and Booker constantly. I've altered the deal. I say that all the time to them. No, he redeems himself in Return of the Jedi, but in Empire Strikes Back, I think everybody comes out from that
+
+[43:56] thinking Lando's kind of kind of lame. Yeah, right? Anyway. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it's well known. Star Wars has a lot of racist stereotypes right? It is only is a bunch of characters with where they have veiled their racist stereotypes by making them into aliens.
+
+[44:14] Like, that's all they've done. is they've taken, they choose X, Y, or Z stereotype and just turned it into an alien, so it's cool. Wookie is being the exception that we're just talking about. Well, I don't know. I can't unwookie my brain. Like, everyone loves Chewbacca so much that I can't... Dave, go on YouTube and look look for the Wookie Christmas special. I've seen it You've seen it. several times. Okay, all right. Amazingly bad Amazingly bad. Who are they? No, it's just like a wookie family celebrating Christmas and there's nothing wookie about them except that they just are
+
+[44:44] wearing... widely known as being the worst thing that was ever put on television. The Star Wars Christmas special, widely known. All right, back to cooking. Back to cooking. Ron writes in about curing temperature. I'm in the process of converting a one chamber, Arctic air refrigerator into a curing chamber. I was asking questions in a charcuterie forum online, and one of the pros bought up the fact that he keeps his temperature in
+
+[45:04] the mid 30s. He says that while the meat takes longer to mature on the order of 2 to 3 times longer, the final product has a superior taste. This goes against the conventional wisdom of keeping the tents in the 50s. He has a small following that backs his claims, and I strongly lean towards his method, since then I can occasionally use the chamber as a regular refrigeration unit when my regular fridge is full.
+
+[45:24] I wanted to get your thoughts on this, love the show, Ron. Uh, and uh, PS. I was listening when you were asking for things, people want to know how to cook low temp. I know a lot of people who are really intimidated when pan searing duck breasts. Maybe you can come up with a way to guarantee a crispy, rendered skin with meat, medium rare throughout using low temperature. I'll hit the duck breast first. I always do a 57. I do a 50 45 minute 57 C on a duck breast, and then for crisping you can use Chris's technique of buying a dog brush. You still believe in the dog brush, Chris? I do, but I was going to say the super, the super hack for, for doing duck breast at home. Take them out, take them out, you know, fresh. Put them on something that's going to keep the skin really flat in the freezer and freeze them for about 30 to 45 minutes, which is
+
+[46:10] going to freeze the fat, freeze the skin. It's not going to freeze the meat all the way through, not unless you have a blast freezer. Take them out while they're frozen and just start searing them, skin side down, you know, weighting them down from frozen. The fat's gonna thaw really quickly, start rendering out. The meat's gonna thaw a lot more slowly, and that's gonna keep the meat from getting overcooked. Then bag them up, cook them sous vide, and then refresh the crust with a really quick, like a 32nd
+
+[46:36] sear and a wicked hot cast iron pan on the pickup. And that makes the best duck breast I know how to make. All right, there you go. Now, back to his other question about, um, the refrigerator. Look, a lot of people I know try to push all their temperatures lower. Uh, and so they push like their fermentation temperature lower on sausage and they push their curing temperature. And I think you can taste the difference with hams, like one. I think one of the main differences between the flavor of an American country ham and, like, you know, an Italian, you know, classic, you know,
+
+[47:11] prosciutto deparma style flavor is the temperature at which the curing chamber is held, and it radically shifts to kind of reactions and the flavor you get. So I don't think I think it's a mistake to say that one is superior to the other. I would say that it is different, and that things are obviously going to, the rates of reactions will accelerate at higher temperatures. Do you have any thoughts on this, Chris? You ever done experiments? Actually, so I'm extrapolating a little bit from fermentation. So from dough fermentation I looked at, but being that it's, you know, yeast are a big part of the creation of
+
+[47:45] flavors and they're creating some of the flavorful acids that contribute and also preserve. I do know that if you shift the temperatures down to low refrigerator like temperatures. The yeast ship their metabolism. And instead of producing as much lactic acid, they start producing probionic acid and other
+
+[48:04] acids that have a very, very different taste. And so high temperature, uh, higher, you know, room temperature bread ferments, but I would also imagine warmer
+
+[48:13] temperature, um, meat ferments. The yeasts involved are going to produce different acids, and you're absolutely going to get different flavor. I completely agree that one isn't superior. It's what style do you prefer? But I think the major reason that you get a difference is the yeast involved in the fermentation process start producing different kinds of acids, depending on what temperature those yeast are at. Right. And I'll also say that, that, uh, I see your, your,
+
+[48:39] your aging, your aging and curing temperature is different from in a sausage. It's different from your initial kind of fermentation temperature, but, you know, I know a lot of people who, um, you know, like typical like fermentation temperature is high, like above body temperature for a lot of these things
+
+[48:54] for, for a lot of American style sausages. But I knew a guy who used to do his stuff at a much lower temperature because he was looking to get a very minimal
+
+[49:02] pH drop. Uh, and so he was always trying to ride the safety line on uh, on, you know, salt and pH levels. And that's his style, but I will say that if you were attempting to do a high pH sausage, that's when you need to start worrying, you know, relatively high.
+
+[49:18] That's when you need to start worrying that you're going to have problems. That's when you need to start like checking yourself. Measuring stuff. Yeah. You know, if you if you do like a typical, like, high temperature, like, US style fermentation, you're
+
+[49:32] getting, people, you should still measure it, but you can taste if that sucker's acidic enough. You know what I mean? Because they're quite acid. Uh, I'm not a huge fan. Are you guys, I don't know if much you guys think about it, but I'm not a huge fan of like super pH acidic sausages because I think a texture really suffers. It gets kind of dry and crumbly, you know what I mean? Anyway. All right, so what do we got here? We got time for more stuff. I'll take him in order then. All right, AK wrote in about mocktails. I want to say I read your book, Liquid Intelligence from cover to cover. I'm sorry that you had to go through that torment there, AK. I loved it. I got the book as well as my 1st set of cocktail tools, a little over a year ago, and went into education mode. Probably within the last half year. I started dabbling, sticking mainly to working with the classics. Um, I've even been making my own ice, you know, like big, you know, clear ice. Question. Do you have any advice on mocktails? I have a few friends who are more on the lightweight one drink wonder side, but still want to partake in the social aspect of drinking, particularly when seeing me mix up different
+
+[50:32] things. I would imagine that mocktails are not as simple as similar recipes just take out the
+
+[50:37] booze, you're correct. And then trying to replace it with juice or water, would throw off the sugar slash acidity ratios. Are there any liquids, slashes ingredients that you've used and it provided good substitutes, or does it require totally different calculation slash analysis? Um, I don't make it up to NYC as like, but I like to stop by your place in person. Well, we don't have one right now, but hopefully soon. Hopefully by, like, you know, July, August, I'll have another place open again. Uh, you know, I'll announce when I can announce. But so, um, I don't know, Chris, whether you've ever done mocktail experiments, but the trick is, is that most cocktails are lower bricks than their
+
+[51:11] non-alcoholic, uh, counterparts. And if you want someone to feel like they are drinking an adult drink without alcohol, the 2 important things, 3
+
+[51:22] in, like in this order, I would match the sugar level of a drink and then I would balance the viscosity. Remember, alcohol as a higher viscosity. Alcohol water mixtures have a higher viscosity, lower surface tension, but higher viscosity than water mixtures alone. And so you need something that's going to add viscosity and
+
+[51:42] mouth feel that isn't sugar because you don't want it as sweet as, let's say, a soda.
+
+[51:46] So a soda is going to be roughly 10%. Have you tried glycerin, Dave? I was going to say that I use it all the time. So, like, when I'm doing low alcohol cocktails, like a Marro-based carbonated cocktails, I hit it with glycerin. Like, as it's just a matter, of course. And so, I mean, I think that's the that's the 1st thing. lower the sugar, add glycerin. And the 2nd thing I would, instead of using straight sugar, I'd use a little bit of a sugar alcohol that has a little bit of a
+
+[52:11] cooling aspect to it. Not too much. Can you get a good deal of cooling without overdoing it on those things, Chris? I've never done a lot of experiments with it, but that's the last thing I try to replicate is a little bit of that cooling aspect that you get. Well, so the thing with cooling for most things like xylotol, the cooling effect only works if they're still in crystalline form because it's actually melting the crystal takes heat, not heat comes from your
+
+[52:34] mouth and so it lowers the temperature of your mouth. So if you dissolve it into a syrup, you don't get the cooling effect. Most sugars, I know, not without like menthol or something. I don't want menthol. I can imagine like a, if you did like, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but if you did like a sugared rim, you could use like a fine ground
+
+[52:50] xylitol for that and it's not going to taste minty. taste a little cool. And don't overdo it on the xylotol or they definitely won't be cool on the outflow when they're in the bathroom.
+
+[53:00] You know what I mean? You want to go mellow with the xylotol. So, like, they made xylotol gummy bears for a long time. And then they stopped because people would not just eat like a normal amount of gummy
+
+[53:11] bears that would feed bag, like the thing of gummy bears. And then, uh, and then they had, uh, yeah, exit strategy problems with the gummy bears on the way out. Yeah, I saw the Amazon reviews, but it's like, what do you think is going to happen if you eat £5 of gummy bears in a city. You deserved it. Yeah. This is the same problem with Alestra with the wow. You know what I mean? It's like, uh, you know, um, and the fact that you have to hydrogenate it or it just runs out on its own. It's like a marathon runner on its own there. But, uh, yeah, I mean, the issue is, you, you, you do one thing for someone and then they think it's a license to just go completely bananas. You know what I mean? And that's not, that's not what it's for because I, you know, I consume reasonable amounts of these alternative sugars
+
+[53:54] and, uh, and without problems. Reasonable amounts. You know what I mean? Um, anyways. Um, so, yeah, but I don't really like menthol in my uh, in my cocktails, do you, Chris? I don't like I don't like a menthol mocktail. I don't like menthol in just about anything. You do or don't? No, I don't. I'm not a I am not a fan of menthol and it's maybe just from years of abuse with like toothpaste and chewing gums, but I think menthol is essentially a terrible flavor. Do you remember like 8 years ago or 10 years ago when everybody was buying menthol crystals and putting them on every damn thing? No, I think I might have lived out of the country when that happened
+
+[54:32] mercifully. Yeah, there's just like, it was like, like, it was a pastry chef thing mostly, but it was like just like, it was
+
+[54:38] a menthol, Christy, because they look cool. You know what I mean? Was this Johnny? Was this Johnny Z or someone? He might have, but like a bunch of people. I'm not going to call anybody out. But like, a bunch of people were like, it's like, it was like, you know, 1st it was Tonka
+
+[54:53] beans, and then we're like, no, you really shouldn't use the Tonka beans. And then it was like, okay, menthol crystals. And we're like, yeah, but they taste real bad. You know what I mean? It's like that's the... I mean, I like eating a menthol crystal every once in a while just to remind myself of, you know what I mean? But, you know, I don't know. not a big fan. All right. So, Chris, anything, uh, anything you want on the exit to talk about, uh, Jewel? Uh, no, come, uh, come to chef steps. Come for jewel. Just come for our content. We always love people who are passionate about cooking. We love having more voices in our community. So thanks for having me on and we'll see you soon, Dave. Nice. And so, uh, and go on to uh, MoFad.org. I hate org. I hate org as a thing.org. just dotorg. Hate it, mofad.org. Go to mofad.org. And go for the gala, thanks to Peter for coming. And by the way, I'll say, Chris, while you're still on. We had an update recently to our spins all crew. Um, got some more prototypes in. And so that's moving forward nicely. I'm probably gonna go to China and get the final, final approval on the stuff in April. So if you have any spins all related questions, you can send those on in, but those of you that were backers, got an update and we're moving along nicely. Uh, thanks, Nick, for coming on. And, uh, we'll, um, next week I'm in Edinburgh at Tales of the Cocktail, Edinburgh on Tuesday.
+
+[56:15] So I, uh, and I know what? I don't like calling in. Stasi and I decided that when you call in. But you had dinner with Dave. You can get a cell phone number. Yeah, Nastasia has, yes, that's well, Nastasia, well known for this. But anyway, so I might see you in 2 weeks on cooking issues.
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+[0:00] Today's show is brought to you by Bob's Redmill, sharing nothing but the best in whole grain nutrition and committed to their mission of good food for all. Learn more at bobsredmill.com slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-LE.
+
+[0:28] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold. Your host of cooking is just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. from Roberta's Pitoya in Bushwick, Brooklyn. We got a banner date today. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez is not sitting right next to me because she is delayed on the ever problematic L train, which was
+
+[0:49] going to cease to exist pretty soon. rooting from afar. Yeah, yeah. we got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? Good, how you doing? Yeah, what, are you, what, do you know, are you a Easter person, Passover
+
+[1:00] person, and nothing person? What are you? Well, as a matter of fact, I just celebrated Passover in LA, but I grew up
+
+[1:06] an Easter person on the East Coast. Yeah, well, anyway, Dan, if you celebrate Passover, sorry to have you out during the Passover time working.
+
+[1:14] You know what I mean? Yeah, I should go home. Yeah, I mean, like I wouldn't until after this show, but then right after this show, I would just hightail it out of here and just like, you know, peace. I'm out. You know what mean? I need the drill at my house, Dave. Exactly 2 drills. I need 2 holes in the ceiling of my apartment, and there is a complete moratorium on any sort of drilling, literally 2
+
+[1:36] holes, and I would have gotten it done before Passover, but I had lent someone my hammer drill. And so like I had to wait, and now I have to wait. There's nothing more frustrating for someone like me than having to wait to drill 2
+
+[1:47] lousy freaking holes. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. All right, so we got we got a banner day today while we're waiting for Nastasia introduced the three, count them 3 guests that we have. Uh, I'll go, 1st I'll say we have the often present Peter Kim. The way to take me for granted, do you? I feel very, really special. Peter, I'm really happy to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Somebody. I'm in Peter too. Yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you all very much. Thank you. And Peter Kim, channeling his days of being a Peace Corps volunteer in Cameroon, has purposely turned off the air conditioner in this box so they were roasting a death because he could take pretty much anything. I also have a bunch of yuka, cassava, because I'm working on making baton de manioc, you know, the sticks of cassava. Yeah. So yeah, I am particularly Cameron. The thing about the, those kinds of tubers really are
+
+[2:38] like, they're, I mean, I cook with them, but they're disturbing looking, right? They look like something out of an alien movie. Now I'm missing my man Bill Paxton and his game over, right? Yeah, I think for a lot of people it just looks like food. Did you know Bill Paxton? I'm pretty sure I didn't look at the credits was in the Terminator. I did not realize this until, you know, Dax, my youngest, wanted to see the Terminator, and I was like, all right, you're ready. And I saw it and at the beginning when Arnold Schwarzenegger comes down and it's like, give me your clothes like
+
+[3:04] that. one of those pies. Yeah, well, he's one of the punts. I was like, no, my God. Yeah, awesome, amazing. Also, we have in the studio with us, J.W. Rogers from El Paso, who took Peter and I to Juarez in El Paso a couple of weeks ago. Here we go, El Paso, Texas. Shout out to the border. Yeah, yeah. So I'm in some so tall shots. Now, listen, I don't want you guys calling in and asking him whether he's visited the old El Paso factory. Because, like, he has a... It's not because I think it's a bad question. I've asked him literally every time I've seen him. I was like, have you visited the old El Paso factory yet, and no, he has not visited. He doesn't even know if that factor is in El Paso. My son, Dax, again, has become addicted to old El Paso taco sauce. I just can't get down with that Fair enough, yeah. It's because it's not a nostalgic flavor for me. It just tastes like produced. It's because you're from New York City. New York City. If you remember that commercial, there's a bunch of cowboys sitting around, like, I don't know what they're eating, like beans and
+
+[4:01] they're poop farting or whatever they're doing, like a la blazing saddles, and they say, where's this here taco sauce mate? And I go, New York City, like that. And then they're just like, they don't want to switch brands. But we also have here with a miraculous taste. Now, listen, people, when you're tasting today, no mouth noises into the microphone. People get very mad. with the mouth noises into the microphone. You might know him as at our cook quest on the Twitter. It's, um, and Instagram, and Instagram. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you prefer? It's the same. Mostly Instagram, because, you know, Twitter's gone a little bit commercial and kind of... What does that mean, commercial? I just can't interact with that. Well, this is rich. This is Richie from Boston engineer, friend of the museum, helped us a lot with the flavor exhibition, came in to help us a lot with many development during the Chow
+
+[4:50] exhibition, and is otherwise known just to me, actually, as Captain Koji. So, uh, he's here with a bunch of uh, he's been working, I don't know, what, 3 years? Yeah, yeah, a little under 3 years, probably about 2.5 . On Koji, but like kind of gone kind of Koji crazy. Like, he'll put Koji on anything. Like, you know, like a mouse dies in the cupboard. He'll cover that some gun with Koji and see what happens to it. And so he's brought us a bunch of Koji products. And so, you know, I think there's a good number of people, especially on this show, who are kind of hip to the hip to what Koji is, but why don't you give us the 32nd on
+
+[5:27] Koji? So Koji is basically a mold inoculated rice, the mold, this very specific mold is called asperjose orzai. It's used to power sugar production as well as enzymatic activity to create amino acid. Oh, sorry. To create amino acids in with protein mediums. So, kind of the world is your oyster in terms of what you can do with it, but primary ideas in terms of what's out there, primarily Japanese are sake, miso,
+
+[5:58] and, you know, in terms of just in general soy sauce. Those are the primary known mediums. Yeah, it's also used on Katsolushi, right? Yes. Yes. So basically, if you're Japanese and you don't have, uh,
+
+[6:13] Asper Gillis, you are hosed. You're just hosed. Yeah, you're ruined. Ruined destroyed. So why don't you give us it, again, the quick, the 30% 32nd on, like, inoculation in general in what you do. So in terms of inoculation, what you need to do is basically take a grain, take it to a certain level that, for lack of a better term, is
+
+[6:32] al dente, such that the mold will grow on the surface of the
+
+[6:36] grain and then be able to proliferate, not to be too sticky or
+
+[6:40] wet because other micro organism will grow outside of that.
+
+[6:44] And then if the grain isn't moist enough for the, and soft enough for the
+
+[6:49] aspergillous to penetrate. Um, it won't, and uh, it'll just basically not grow and and, uh, spoilate and give you something that you don't desire. You're lucky that Nastasia is not here because you said sporeulate and that would like, she would just like rip the microphones out. Like, she hates the word spore. Imagine sporulate. That's the worst. Now, actually, we had a question a couple weeks ago on wild, on wild kind of molding with Koji. You ever had or read about pathhenogenic Aspergillis showing up on wild type fermentation of Koji? I've read some studies that say odds are that you're going to get a regular, like, healthy one. I've read studies bad, but it was years ago. Do you have any update information on that? Yeah, I haven't really looked into it. I just feel like, you know, you can easily accessible. It's easily accessible to buy spores that are specific to what you need. And in terms of the flavor conversion or whether it's focused on proteins or carbohydrates for sugars, I feel like it's so easy to just
+
+[7:47] buy it. Yeah, I mean, but there, you know, on the meat front, so many people have tried to, um,
+
+[7:52] everything in life now, especially in fermentation world, in any of these food
+
+[7:59] worlds is a point of difference, and so everyone's trying to make their own products. So I know a lot of people have branched out in, obviously, in beer with different yeast strains or in cured meats with different, you know, bacterial and or, you know, they're basically a
+
+[8:14] shotgun. a bunch of different stuff, bacteria used and everything, strains for their fermentation in sausages and
+
+[8:20] whatnot. But you don't see that giant difference in like different exact strains of
+
+[8:25] aspergillis for Koji versus, let's say, oh, yeast for beer. I wouldn't imagine. So I think any of the other flavors that you get are from other micro organisms doing their
+
+[8:37] jobs. Mostly what Aspergillus in terms of what I've been investigating is the ability to create amino acids.
+
+[8:45] And if you're just creating amino acids, you know, maybe some have different ways of creating enzymes for different
+
+[8:50] proteins, but in terms of a difference in umami, I don't know if you can parse that. Okay, cool. So just buy a sports people. Yeah. Yeah, or get a small package and generate your own. Yeah, generate your own. Well, you make it like, by the way, it's not just for rice anymore. You do every. I'll know if you mention that because I was opening up the questions I have to answer later on, but you do, you inoculate
+
+[9:12] everything, like you inoculate, like, your family. Yeah, so I brought some examples of things that I've actually applied Koji to, but yeah. I mean, uh, in terms of, if you bring the Koji cheese, that's what I heard I should, I should try some. Yeah, so I have the Koji cheese, which is basically what I'm calling a miso method cheese, because I'm already taking Finnish
+
+[9:35] Koji, and mixing it with ricotta, and a little bit of salt, and basically you create a particular cheese like substance that you can get on the order of the flavor in 2 months, do the enzyme
+
+[9:47] activity. And then I'm looking at people. It looks like a praline. It looks like a, like a praline's a multi-use term. It looks like a chunk of brown, like cooked brown sugar, like it might contain almonds or
+
+[10:01] pecans. But oh, by the way, JW, are you a pecan or a pecan? a pecan. You're a pecan? Pecan. He's from the South. You're from the south. West though, West, West Texas. Just eat that sparingly. pretty concentrated like Parmesan. So anyway, and it breaks up and it looks almost like a cooked through like
+
+[10:20] a soda bread, but it's one color all the way through, and it's kind of it's nuggetized. It has a very, it has more of a Romano nose than, I would say, Parmigiano knows. What do you think, guys? Maybe. In between. Parmesan. getting some Parmesan. You don't get Romano? I get the smell of Romano, but I'm tasting some Parmesan. Have you seen the movie Corky Romano? It's so intense. Oh, here goes my mouth noise. Sorry. hold up. Yeah, okay, so Peter, what do you think? I think it's incredible. Yeah, I'm trying to... So it has... The protein breakdown flavor in it, to me, honestly, is closer to like a Romano, because to me, especially like, uh, the Romano's, you get like a locatelli style Romano here in in the U.S. are kind of heavily, heavily
+
+[11:11] enzyme. They have a lot of breakdown, a lot of breakdown flavors, so I'm getting a lot, a lot of breakdown flavors in it. What do you think? No? You think it's closer to a Parmigano style finished than a Romano style finish? Closer to Romano. Yeah. So maybe the nose is more super interesting. How long does this take? Three months start to finish. So only 2 months. And also, for those of you who work in restaurant kitchens, takes about 2 months in a reach-in or walking. So you can do this under refrigeration conditions, safe, controlled, in a way such that, you know, you don't have to worry about the environment, fluxing. Also, I've pretty much put it in environment where it's totally miso. Um, you know, Doesn't retin sound dirty? Reaching sounds dirty, doesn't it? Yeah. You kind of like reach around? Oh, thanks. I mean, it was all implicit. Rich? Rich, man. Rich, you are the new line stepper. Peter was our habitualized stepper. You were the new line stepper. hold on, let me give him the line stepping scepter. Here we are. Because usually Peter's the guy that like, you know, one just one step too far. Like, you take it out to the brink, such that someone who doesn't already know. I like to leave a little to the imagination, though, you know? All right. Okay, so what we got next, boss? So since we're already talking about misos. One of the things in terms of El Paso, a buddy of mine who works at Commonwealth
+
+[12:29] restaurant in Cambridge, shout out. My buddy, Dicko, mortatory that I've been working with for a very long time on projects. We dropped a whole bunch of Koji into kitchen. We started experimenting. And I said, you can pretty much add any protein to Koji and create a delicious miso.
+
+[12:45] So he pulled out this refried bean can of refried beans. And we made refried bean miso. What band was it? Was it Goya? No, it was El Paso. Oh, yeah. Segue right there. Oh, baby. So I also I love how JW brings out the accent. So I have some of that. But I had it. So we did it, we added to, we had it on a, um, a dinner we did over the course of a few days on a
+
+[13:11] workshop dinner tour of Koji. So we added some apple butter to make it kind of like a hoisin sauce. Next to it, we have a, uh, basically a full out whey protein powder with a little bit of water and Koji and salt to create a crazy umami bombed, uh, processed cheese. And then on a lark, even though I'm big on proteins. I took avocado and I made a miso with it. Uh, and it tastes pretty cool, even though it doesn't have a lot of protein, it's got a pretty crazy flavor and texture. So pass this around. We'll do straw on it so that we don't make mouth noises with the crackers. And then during the break, we can take bigger trunks with crackers. So home's like, you guys talk for a 2nd while I taste here. Good job talking. So, so I found all this stuff in terms of if you're looking to create misos, uh, short term, you know, in the course of a couple months, uh, what you look at
+
+[14:07] is, if you have some sort of animal protein, it seems like, uh, in terms of the enzymatic action, it occurs much faster, uh, so if we're talking about uh, meats, you know, in terms of
+
+[14:18] what's uh, the folks of Noma had been doing for a while, making, you know, fish sauces and meat sauces. But dairy was one of those discoveries, I came upon, you know, a couple
+
+[14:28] years ago when I was 1st playing around, thinking about what has protein, what has, you know,
+
+[14:34] minimum amount fat. I actually just the easiest way that I found to originally track it was I would just look at nutritional facts and match it against
+
+[14:41] soybeans. And then I just went on a lark and just went crazy and started adding everything. I've done baking. I've done butter. How was bacon? It's actually crazy. added umami. Um, it's not right. Not right. mommy overload? Yeah, it's umami overload. Yeah, I mean, you could add it to a stock or, you know, to... or something. Yeah. What about what other other failed misos? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, uh, if you take butter, because it's pretty much full out fat and you leave it out really hot and under normal, like miso, uh, fermentation, uh, conditions, uh,
+
+[15:19] because uh, uh, Koji actually creates uh, uh, enzymes to break, lipes is to break down fats, you get rid of expand acidity pretty easily. Well, also like breakdown fat, fat breakdown products and cheeses, I can always tell a full fat
+
+[15:33] cheese its age because those lipid breakdown products, like make my taste buds pop like little mushrooms. I can always tell, hold on a second. Nastasia the Hammer Lopez has graced us. You saved your seat. Thank you. pretty nice. Peter tried to get JW to sit there so that you would yell at him and I was like, you know, Peter, why would you enjoy somebody else's
+
+[15:56] pain so much? It's not, it's not accurate. Well, I'm just taking a page from the Stas book. Yeah, yeah. All right, so you can go back and taste the other stuff in a second. So what else, what about this cheddar block. Tell me about your supermarket cheddar block. So supermarket, cheddar block. Basically, I took some super, because a good friend of mine named Jeremy Monsky has been experimenting a lot with curing meats and aging meats with
+
+[16:19] growing aspergillus with rice flour pack. Under the same conditions you would grow aspergillus on a grain, to create this, basically this enzyme
+
+[16:31] pack such that you can cure meats faster and create aging flavors really fast.
+
+[16:36] So on the order of, you know, a 3rd less time that you would normally hang to dry. So what I
+
+[16:43] did, in terms of seeing what he was doing is because I was on this cheesecake, I just took some supermarket cheddar. And I did this, this, um, you know, Koji can
+
+[16:53] asperjose pack on the outside. And basically when you do that, it just has this enzymatic action. But not so much in adding flavor to this particular piece of cheese, but it kind of petrified
+
+[17:04] it. So it has this interesting drying effect through the enzyme activity that I don't quite understand. So maybe if we have some scientists out there, that would be really helpful to try to understand this. Now Peter, you tried this before, so when you try it, you can tell me what's going on, right? Yeah, of course. All right.
+
+[17:23] You got some meat here? Yeah, so in terms of one of the investigations that I was thinking about, because there's a lot of, you know, talk about whether you should do
+
+[17:32] the, um, Koji growing on the on the surface of the meat, or you should pack Koji on the outside. So I just kind of went on a lark and decided because I had some Brazilo I was working on, um, to basically put a... You say it, you're the Italian. They're like, I don't know, but like, but, oh no, wait, wait. No, it's different. Like, so when I say, like, Boston style, are you from
+
+[17:57] Boston rich or just went there because of school? Just went there because of school, but, well, actually, I went to school in Amherst, but I, right? Like, but that's different. That's the skin. That is different. That's the braccioli. That's like... Like, you know what I mean? Like, you got to say it like, it's in the, it's in the gravy. You roll up the pork and you put it in the gravy and you get brasol. You know what I'm talking about? Anyway, Brazil, go ahead. So what do you got here? So, uh, so I just decided. So I figured, you know, instead of growing the, um, the particular aspergeros, or as I, on the surface with
+
+[18:30] the rice pack, I would just take some finished Koji, mix it in with a little bit of salt, like 3% salt to ensure that other microbes wouldn't come into play. And I packed it around Brazil. And then I carried it. So, uh, it only took 12 days to get to the final, uh, it actually got over the 30% It got to 33% and it creates this interesting,
+
+[18:53] it's a lot moister than traditional air cured Brazola. It's good too. spices you put on that? I just put a curry spice in curry. Yeah, into the Koji pack. You're weird dude. Curry, curry, curry, curry. I like that. I like the curry, though. What do you guys think about the curry? I like it a lot. curry burzoli. You know, he made miso fortune cookies with our fortune cookie machine. Yeah, I didn't get to have one yet. It's actually Go Chi Chong. I'm sorry, sorry. Because we had it, yeah. Peter, don't give us your alternate translation, all right. Peter's got inappropriate alternate translations for anything. Oh, right. Yeah, I know. Yep, y'all know what go-to means in Korean. Yeah, I know. I've been told that like you use a slightly different version of the word when you mean the slang word that you're talking about, but I
+
+[19:38] don't know. What might, what might, anyway, never mind. All right, all right, all right. I gotta get to some questions. Let's see this here. By the way, call in your freaking Koji questions now, like technical questions on how to use Koji. Why do you have beats here? Why beats? Spray with extra jasmin? Yeah. No, basically, so I was, you know, I was just giving you the beat eye with this. You know what? I like beats. No, I like beats. It's just, I like a particular kind of beat, right? First of all, you're like... so you should love beets. You should be swimming in beet juice on a constant case. I had a lot of beats growing up. Yeah. And you just hated them? No, okay, so I can deal with thin sliced, like, and it's a pretty chioga beats, right? I can deal with that. I can deal with fully cooked beets. It's that in-betweener. Also, I really love par dehydrated beats. Love party hydrated beets. It's those in-betweener beats where like you get a giant chunk of beat and it's like not cooked and it's not
+
+[20:34] cooked and then somehow they manage to cook the dirt flavor into the beat instead of getting the...
+
+[20:39] Here we get 3 big baseballs of beets as a ditch. I can't plow my way through a baseball of beat. But like vegan chunks I can deal with. What are your guys' thoughts on baseballs and beats? I was actually just exposed to beats when I came up to New York at Lupa and I had to cook about like £60 a week of beats. And so I had a lot of baseball beat experiences. To be honest, I'm a baseball beat fan. They grew on me. So you would just pick up like a beat and there's craps running down your arm, ruining your whites. I just take a big old shawl. Your teeth are all stained, running down the sides of your mouth, and you're like, yeah, I'm down. That's what happened. You guys should know Nastasia's face. Rich, we had that salt baked beets at, what was it called? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds good. Gunargus Lasen. One of my one of my earliest... Memories, a nightmare memories is that we did a salt cooked fish. My mom decided to do it, and the salt crust collapsed, and we couldn't get all the salt off the fish. And so it was more like death. Yeah. And like my mom, who's a fantastic cook and a pediatric cardiologist, like world-renowned for starting the transplant program at
+
+[21:46] Columbia. The 1st pediatric heart transplant ever. And the only thing that my stepfather gives her constantly reminds her of is that one freaking
+
+[21:53] fish with the... saved
+
+[21:56] lives, but saved so many lives. Like, literally so many lies that no one else would have transplanted these kids and yet that's what that's what she's going to be remembered for, that one fish. So what do we got with the beats? So it's a better zuke preparation. Traditionally, it's done with Daikon. So I just took the recipe straight out of the Book of Miso. Short leaf. Call out, shout out to Shirtleaf. Yeah, it's my goal to bring that back into publication. I told it's not in publication? No. I told you, I called him on the phone. picked up and insulted me. What? Yeah. I was like, listen, this is a long time ago. And he literally, he picked up the phone. I was like, okay. Because, like, I thought I was going to get, like, you know, somebody, somebody dot peon at soy organization. Yeah, yeah, soy, whatever. And he picks up and I was like, um, have you had, I was trying to do alternate
+
+[22:47] tofus. And this was way, way before... Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like long, long time ago. And I was like, can you make it with edamame? And he almost like, if he could have, like, choked me with peace through the phone. He would have like choked me out with peace. He's like, that is such a wasted edamame. Why would you try to make tofu out of edamame? I was like, my people have a lot of money. It's not about saving the world through protein. It's just about food. You know what I mean? I was asking, try to ask them about alternate things. He was just like, look, soybeans are for tofu. Andamame is for eating. Boop. That's it. You know what I mean? He was not having it. So shortly, the guy who wrote the book of Tofu in the book of me. So we talked about it many times on the air. And his wife, whose name I can never pronounce, which is why I never say her name. I feel you on that one. Yeah, yeah. And so, which I feel bad. Like, I would give her, like, the credit she's due, if I could pronounce her name, or, and because I can't pronounce her name, I can't remember it, which is a freaking nightmare.
+
+[23:41] It's horrifying. like, anyway, whatever. And she didn't pick up the phone. If she had picked up the phone, I would have made the, you know, the conscious effort to
+
+[23:48] remember. anyway, that's not the point. The point is, is that he wanted to save they, wanted to save the earth through, um, protein. You know what I mean? Didn't work so much though. I think they should have I mean, if people knew what umami bombs were back then, then it would have been a totally different story. Yeah, so the 2 of them wrote 2 books. The book of Tofu, the book of Miso, please do not buy, there is a pocket version that's reasonable, and then there's a pocket version that's mutilated. Please get, when you're getting it, make sure you get the full-on edition. When they hacked up one of one or two, I forget, I've seen several editions of their books that have been hacked up in such a way that they don't flow well and they're kind of
+
+[24:26] unreadable. If you can get the large format one, they're the easiest on the eyes and the best to read. Rich, agree. Yeah, I own 4 copies. What's your last name? I don't know. Not sure, Leaf. Okay. So on those pickles, basically, I took that technique. You just make a slurry out of Koji you've
+
+[24:49] made or Koji you've bought, you add cooked rice and a little bit of sake and
+
+[24:53] salt. And then you have this pickling slurry and you let it ferment out for about a week. And then you just add, um, you add typically root vegetables to it because they can kind of handle
+
+[25:03] the, uh, the environment and hold up. And then I've just found it to be delicious. The other... They are crunchy. Is that bad or? Well, in my normal realm, that's not so good. But I'm remembering now, I'm thinking of them now more as Sukimono as pickles, and so I can, that's good. It's good. Nastasia does not like them at all. What's the face? That's the most polite I've ever seen Nastasia be in her life. A look of horror with and fine. No, but listen. Must document. Nastasia, Nastasia, like, you need to rearrange your mind. Like, you and I have an idea of what something's supposed to be. Just rearrange your mind. This is now a we're now in Sukimonoland. We're not in like Western Beatville. One thing I will say is that, um, I can taste starch more in this beat than I normally can taste in
+
+[26:02] beats. I wonder why that's the case. So like when you eat an apple that has some residual starch. It's got a note and usually in an undercooked beet or non- I guess it's non-cooked. It is not undercooked or it isn't cooked. It's part cooked. So, yeah, okay, so that's why I'm not used to having a raw beat of this texture. So I get a little bit of that starch note, which lovers of pea shoots will love. I'm a big fan of those beats. Yeah. Are you a lover of pea shoots? I do like pea shoots. Why? You're allowed to like whatever you want. All right, hold on, let's get some questions before we have to go to bring. And then we'll talk more about Bakoji. But if I don't get some of these questions, Nastasia is going to be, see, when I get off the air, Nastasia is just going to be like, you didn't answer any of those damn questions. It's like 3 weeks behind, right? Yes. But I'm going to handle one from this week because it needs a bunch of people talking about it. All right, wait, let's do that. and then take the break, huh? All right, Rich, you got a couple more things for us to taste. after the break. Yeah, we'll do it after. Okay. Andrew from Los Angeles writes in regarding toast. Greetings, Dave, the Hammer and Family. I consider myself a knowledgeable amateur cook, and I'm uncomfortable with a variety of techniques and cuisines. I say this 1st because my question is super basic. How do you make toast? Lately, I feel like my toast game is lacking. The bread doesn't get crunchy enough unless it's boite. I've had some pretty delicious toast out at various breakfast spots, but can't seem to replicate that at home. I know enough to avoid sagifying the toast by, say, putting on a plate directly after toasting. Oh my god, even thinking about that frigging toast, steaming itself on a plate is making me angry. It's just making me virulently angry right now. But I could use some more pro wisdom. Should I look into a new toaster? I don't know. You didn't tell me what kind of toaster you're using. How do I know? I don't know what you have. Although the toaster does make a huge difference. If I'm not getting the should I look into a new toaster if I'm not getting the desired outcome, toaster oven versus standard slotted toaster,
+
+[27:59] you know, et cetera. Is this entirely about the brand of bread? Do I have to be a crazy person and leave sliced bread on the counter every night to get it appropriately stale? Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Love the show, Andrew from Los Angeles. First of all, you should go and read, oh my god, what's, uh, so the wife name is Matt. What's his name? John Thorn had a book, several books. They write in Maine. I think it's, I forget, they have a bunch of books, looked them up. One of them has an essay on toast that's quite good. Um, but I can't remember the name of which one it is. They have. I can't even remember the name of any of their books now, but it's all like pig, fire, stuff like this, but like one has an essay on toast, which is definitely worth the read. Toast is an underappreciated product. And there is no one toast. It's not like Highlander, where there can be only one. There are multiple toasts. And so the question is, what are you looking for in a slice of toast? And I would say that the average American in a slice of toast wants a crispy but not burnt exterior, but a
+
+[28:59] still, still soft interior? Am I right? I'll agree with that. Yeah. Whereas there are a host of people when they say toast, they want something basically fully meldified, like a,
+
+[29:11] you know, crunchy throughout, a desiccated rusk, right? Now, uh, so, and a lot of this has to do with the with the toasting rate. And I'll say it again, and I've said it a 1000000000 times on the air, this is all about the miracle of moisture management,
+
+[29:25] right? Toast is all a moisture management technique. So, there is a huge difference in quality between different toasters. That's for sure, right? unevenness on everything on the on the programming. You can in general get decent toast out of any, uh, any toaster you desire, but in general, if your toast isn't coming out of the way you want it, I would do 2 toastings on
+
+[29:51] a, I would do 2 light toastings with a rest in between rather than a single long toasting to the desired color.
+
+[29:59] That's going to give you a little more dehydration on the outside of the bread. And after the very 1st toasting when it comes out, you'll flash some of the moisture off and ruin the kind of
+
+[30:08] base initial very blonde crust that you produced. And then when you put it in for the 2nd time, you're going to develop a little more of a durable crust on the outside, but you won't have dehydrated it all
+
+[30:17] the way through. If you want a very dehydrated internal with a very, very
+
+[30:21] long-lasting crust for, let's say, you're going to put something on top like boschetta or something like this, then I would say multiple low passes or just throw it in the freaking oven at a low baking temperature with air
+
+[30:34] circulation. The other thing is as soon as the toaster turns off, open the toaster oven. if you're using an oven. Open the toaster oven, let the steam come out. When you look at your toaster oven, JW, do you not see that freaking condensation on the inside of the toaster oven? Yeah, yeah, I see it. And does that not cause your heart pain? It does. It causes a little tinkle. Right, right. So 1st thing I would say is let's say you're using a toaster oven. I would do a, you know, a relatively short toast, then I would open
+
+[31:00] it and let it flash off, wait a couple minutes, toast it one more time light, and you should get a good quality toast. That's the answer. On a pop-up toaster. I don't really think, I mean, maybe moving it slightly because if your toaster is particularly crappy, you'll notice
+
+[31:16] that it puts banding on your toast and not just banding on where the
+
+[31:21] grates are, but you can literally see the heating element's running along your toast. This is an indication that your toast is probably, that's not an even enough kind of heat. Perhaps the reflector on the bottom of your thing is very dirty. You're not getting a lot of radiate heat back up or there's a number of reasons, but, you know, if you need to move it to even it out. You can do that too, or just get a higher quality toaster oven. Anyone else agree or disagree on my toast technology, anything further to add on toasting? Sounds like a pain in the ass to get some good toast. It's super easy Look, this is like everything else. This is like my new book. If you're not into this, then just don't buy the new book. It's thinking a lot ahead of time, but making your life easy. Like, in other words, like, you're putting your toast in and you're hitting it and you're hitting go and you're walking away and coming back and it's done, all I'm advocating is that in between that, you, like, turn it off, let it flash off
+
+[32:11] for, like, you know, 30, 40 seconds, let it cool down a little bit, then run it through another toast
+
+[32:15] cycle. That all. So you're saying toaster oven is the way to go over a pop-up toaster? No, I think you could do the same thing in a pop-up toaster. Pop-up toaster shoots the toast up and allows pretty good airflow. So, like, I would just set your pop-up toaster to like a lower level than you normally would, and then just let it pop, hit it again, let it pop and
+
+[32:32] go. And then it's just dialing in how long those short segments are. But you're gonna get a better toast. Look, if you want crappy toast, that's up to you. I'm kind of in a mix right here because I have my grandmother's toaster, and so it's sentimental, but it's fundamentally produces crappy
+
+[32:47] toast. So... What style of toaster? Toastmaster. Toast muds pop-up? pop up from like 1976 or something like that? Yeah, you might like do, so if it's pop-up, is it, like, what's bad about the toast? Like, so the knob doesn't really work, so you don't really know how you're going to, if you're going to overdarken it or if you're going to lightly darken it. You need to keep that knob in one freaking position. You need to dial that sucker in and then like let her go. Well, Paso's more of a tortilla game, so we never really kind of jumped into it. You put tortillas in a pop-up toaster? No, no, but I don't really, that's why I guess I don't know the art of toast per se. and haven't really paid attention to the quality of the toast. And so, I don't know. Yeah, also, I like crappy American bread for toast. I do, for a sandwich. For a sandwich. Here's something else I would say. I'm going to make a small pitch here, large pitch, actually. If you're getting a new toaster, One of the advantages of a toaster oven is the bagel setting. And the bagel setting is the best thing to happen to toasters since
+
+[33:44] toasting. Because there are many things on earth. A bagel is not one of them because I don't toast bagels, but there are many things on earth where you want toasting on the one side only. You guys agree with me on this? Yeah. A hamburger bun. I don't want the part touching my hands to be toasted. I want the part touching the mayonnaise and or the burger. I want that to be toasted. That sogginess, too. Yeah, right. That's functional and delicious, but I want I want the top of my sesame seed bun to be a bun and not a piece of toast.
+
+[34:14] Unless you get a patty moat. Fluffy. I would always get a patty melt. If someone says, would you have, like, would you have a patty melt? pretty much they can just stop. They can just stop. Would you like a patty melt as soon as they say the word or I'm like, I'm done because that's what I want. Patty Melt is like, God's, like, what God would do to a burger. That why it's not even a hamburger in my mind. It's like, it's another category of awesome. Like I love the patty melt. But, uh, anyway, patty melt, obviously, you don't, that's an interesting question. Would you pre-toast, would you pre-toast the inside of a patty melt? I don't, do I? No. You want to take a break and think about it? Is that a hint? Yeah, okay, we'll come right back with more questions on cooking issues.
+
+[35:01] Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grain since 1978. What are the nice things about Bob's Red Mills? It's the only that I know of, national supplier that's easily available for lots of interesting,
+
+[35:16] hard-to-get grains and other seed products. So, you know, before Bob's Red Mill became widely available, you couldn't go get something like quinoa very easily, or you couldn't go get spelt easily in small quantities.
+
+[35:31] But now you go to any one of the huge number of stores that carry Bob's
+
+[35:34] Red Mill, and you can get smaller amounts of these really interesting fun things to play with.
+
+[35:39] Learn more at bobsredmill.com slash podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for
+
+[35:48] Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[36:17] get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[36:22] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[36:37] For more information and to order yours now. Visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. And we're back. We didn't answer Javier about his equipment question, did we, Nastasia? Okay. I hope you're doing well. I wanted to send a question for the show, but don't have the address. Well, apparently you found it. Okay. I'm looking at expanding the equipment for my kitchen. I live in a small apartment, so I don't have too much space to put many appliances, and I wanted to get a suggestion on what I should get next. I currently own a nova immersion circulator, unfortunately, it's not a jewel, I guess, because, you know, we had jewel is a sponsor of our program. We had croissant, what, 2 weeks ago? Uh, a Vitamix, uh, KitchenAid, a copycat, EC Whipper, and a pre-order the spins all. Thank you. You have everything you need then, baby. I was looking at a vacuum chamber machine, the Ari Vacmaster 215, Rich, you ever use that one? Nope. No, I know JW hasn't because he's got the fancy, uh, fancy mini pack. Wah, wah. But I don't know if I should go for it. Another machine like it or a different type of equipment. Any suggestions? I would only use it at home, so I'm debating whether I should shell out $500 plus for a machine like that. Thanks for your help. Best Javier. Javier. So here's my issue. I've never used that. All these years later, have what? Javier. Javier. Javier, whatever, man. I was going French. Anyway, week. I've known weak sauce. I the sauce that is weak. So, my point is this. I've never used that machine. I should probably, since I'm doing this book that has sous vide on it, just bite the bullet and buy or steal one or find someone that has one and use it, now I'm going to actually go French Herve, Chef Herve
+
+[38:21] Maliver from the French culinary, well, the ICC, formerly the French culinary institute. He seems to like it, but I've never used it and I will never, I can't ever, won't ever recommend a piece of equipment that I haven't used. Um, just because that would be stupid on my part. Um, but, you know, like what you, I don't know the ultimate vacuum it can produce. Really, for vacuum vacuum machine at home is super handy. Um, Most things you can do without a vacuum machine, but I got to be honest, when, like, I'm doing chicken marination or any kind of marination, I throw crap in the vacuum machine because it just makes the marination happen faster.
+
+[38:57] It just does like backpacking the stuff down. Uh, and for infusions and when you're packing stuff to freeze, you want to get all the oxygen out.
+
+[39:05] So backpacking for freezing is like a really smart idea to maintain quality on long frozen items. Um, You can get away with a zippy, but vacuuming is generally a lot better.
+
+[39:16] I only like chamber machines. I think that this, the one you're talking about. I cant remember whether it has a chamber or whether it's like a chamber like one or something like this, but I really only recommend chamber machines. Uh, I will say this, mini pack, which is the company who uh, makes the unit that I use, uh, and that JWU mini pack,
+
+[39:36] not not multivac, right? Yeah, you know why to get mini pack is because they care about cooks, whereas multivac could give a rats behind about you. They don't care about you or your problems. Not at all. I want a mini pack. You want a mini pack? We don't want a mini pack, but they're coming out with a where they're coming out with a new home unit
+
+[39:50] called like the cube in the next 6 months or so. And so I'm waiting when that comes out, unfortunately, I don't think it'll be out in time for my book to be in it, but
+
+[40:01] I'm having high hopes for it. is relatively small unit. It will allow for chamber and for external vacuum, but I can't comment on it because they're not using. See, all the good vacuum machines use what's called a bush pump or equivalent. It's an oil-based vacuum pump, and they just kick so much behind. That's why, like, food savers are, you know, relatively useless for that sort of stuff because they have those little piston
+
+[40:25] pumps. And then like they get, they get jammed with... You know what no one's ever done that I know of? Here's a trick for you food saver people. Has anyone ever modified a food saver for a wolf jar? You know what a wolf jar is? So a wolf jar is vacuum in and vacuum out all from the
+
+[40:45] top and it collects liquids in the bottom. So, like, I can imagine modifying a food saver with one of their smaller because it takes a long time to evacuate those things with that crappy little pump. But you could probably handle liquids. Oh, no, you can't because you got to put the freaking seal bar. Someday I'll just make my own like DIY. I'll just make like a $100 DIY. That not for production because people already are in that business, but I mean, just like a, you know, you have access to like a fundamental woodshop or a 3D
+
+[41:15] printer. Here's a vac machine. Yeah, because you can't wolf char that sucker. Son of a gun. I don't know. Anyway, it would be good if you could. Then you wouldn't need a chamber as much, but I would wait for a chamber machine. What do you think? I agree. Yeah? DW, how do you like your new shamer machine? I love it. I love it. Okay. Still practicing on it a lot, though. Froggy, why don't you take a glass of water? No, no, no, working, working. All right, hold on. Yeah. Okay, so listen. Hey, I was doing that on the plane, annoying the hell out of people on the plane, but what about that guy that got drug off the United
+
+[41:44] Airlines? Wow. The airline is like, what do you mean? What the problem? I was like, it's like, it's like once you're seated, that's it. My butt's in the seat. You know what I mean? You got a lot of stones to try and take me out of my seat. You know what I mean? Would you rather have them step over you? I would rather them put that crew on another immediate flight or just break. Look, you messed up. Put them in the cockpit in the jump seat. have them stay in the freaking restroom. We just keep upping what you're offering until somebody, somebody's going to at some point. Yeah, they're like, oh, we can't up it that much. Yes, you can. 30 free flights. Get off my freaking plane. You know what I mean? It's like a lot cheaper than what they have to do now. Yeah, right? Yeah. They lost two, like as of when I left my apartment this morning, they had already
+
+[42:32] lost like two, 2.5 to 3% of their entire company value on the stock market based on that decision.
+
+[42:38] So it's like, maybe they should have offered a couple more free flights. I'm just saying. Yeah, you know what I mean? But the thing is also, like, drag somebody off a plane. Uh, yeah, the, I mean, I don't know, that's not a, it's not a food related, not a food related question, so we should probably, we have enough food related questions. So, uh, Shyro... Maybe the guy liked pea shoots, though, in which case. Get him off there. Maybe what? Maybe he like pea shoes, yeah. Or just like a baseball beat. Oh, oh, I get you pieces. Baseball beats, pea suits, chicken, a turkey wrap. and how about something? Why you got to hate on the turkey? not the turkey. Speaking of wraps. So we talked about Juarez and the burrito a little bit. Did we talk about bars? Did we talk about bars on here, Anastasia, the Juarez bars? So all the old Well, JW took us all the old school bars. They all have the bar is an integrated urinal. P where you stand. I have to call this into question, though. I'm calling this into question. So, yeah, we've always thought it was a urinal. Is that what the lady said? Someone else called it out and saying that it was something like a trash bin, like
+
+[43:41] someone like... Yeah, so that's what I was saying. I've been to lots of bars in Spain where they have the trough under the bar, and that's where you throw your napkins, the ones that really do a horrible job at wiping up anything. Then also you throw like your cells and like... Do you know Mexico's its own country? Well, I'm saying that it's quite possibly something that was brought over from Spain. And that would explain, that'd be a much more rational reason. It's crazy to think of foods. Oh, oh, it's so irrational. What about the old thing that you used to hear about people at Oktoberfest peeing down their canes? Old thing meaning like this happens. like now. And I'm pretty sure potentially Kentucky Club might have been an all male bar when it 1st opened up. So I could I could see that. That's what the lady at Club Queens, they say. Yeah. why would you throw a napkin in a trough? Just so you don't have to throw it on the floor. You are throwing it on the floor. Someone's still going to have to go down into the trough and lift that nap him out. where people are peeing. Someone, some sort of bar expert. Please get on this. Anyway, for whatever, they're not, they're no longer used, and I'm sure there's no faster way to get your,
+
+[44:46] you're behindhanded to you than to either throw your, throw your garbage or your urine in there. First of all, urine is a lot more friendly than your garbage. Dave, I gotta just drop a little hate right now. I talked to Doc Scons since that episode when you talked about him filming Nick Wong and Nick Wong just
+
+[45:01] saying... Nick Wong was here during that. I've seen the video evidence and your account of the video is erroneous. Oh, wow. Well, okay, so why don't we... Erroneous... Well, no, I mean, in fact,
+
+[45:20] Nick, yeah, whatever. No, Nick says he's knowing he's excited to see Doc Scones. And then, um, you know, he's like, I wasn't saying that he was hating on Doc Sconce. It's just Nick is a very head down cook, work, not say anything that he's not authorized to say kind of an individual.
+
+[45:35] That's the point. It's not that he's hating on Doc Sconce, is that if you're like, will you make some comments on this kitchen? The answer is going to be, no. You know what I mean? Like, seriously, have you ever met Nick? Do you hang out with Nick? You're like, try to get him to say something. He's going to be like, no. Because what if he says something that's not what the chef wants him to freaking say? Duh. Not, not, not, nothing. Shy rights, and. After tasting some in quotes, grill flavored snacks, which are obviously not grilled. I wondered how this flavor is created. I did a quick patent search and got some interesting and confusing results. The concept seems to be a breakdown of oil and amino acids at high temperatures. Yeah, there's like rancidity. They're like in contact with metal ions, there's all sorts of stuff. It seems oxygen or lack of it also has some effect. I appreciate some explanation of this flavor and the process that produces it, and perhaps also some uses for it in a home kitchen, thanks,
+
+[46:28] shy. Well, I don't really know precisely how it's done. It's a super dark art what happens in the flavor houses. Did you ever talk to our flavor guys about that? We need to talk to him about, like, fake wakay flavors. Yeah, we talked Julie. Talk to Julie a little bit about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so there's they identified the chemical compounds, actually, create that are, like, what
+
+[46:48] Wokhe is. Right. And a lot of it is like overcooked oil, like things that catch on fire. Um, reactions of oil in the presence of um, ferrous metal ion. Yeah, the carbon steel. Yeah, so carbon steel. All of that plays in, but also a lot of these quote unquote grill flavors also have the meat flavor thrown into it, and all the fake meat flavors are like very complicated, and this goes to
+
+[47:12] rich, what you're into, very complicated protein breakdown products that happen in large reactors.
+
+[47:18] And so like a lot of this kind of like reactor-based flavor chemistry is all about the exact feedstock, the exact temperature that they're reacting it at to
+
+[47:26] get break it down. So it's all very super complicated. And the reason you can't find information on it is because they don't want you to know.
+
+[47:32] Like, it's all super proprietary how all those kind of flavors work other than the basics that we can all look at, which is people have done GCMS work on grilled food and kind of
+
+[47:42] seen what has come out. right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let me see. Any more of a, let's see, the answer the that question, that question. All right, let's go onto this. Daiquiri, Dan from Dan, Dan with a daiquiri question from Chicago. Do you like daiquiris, Rich? Traditional daiquiri. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to what? I don't know the strawberry crap. That's not even a daiquiri. Don't even call that a daiquiri. Hemingway daiquiri is another form of daiquiri that I dislike. But like those things in New Orleans are not daiquiris. I don't know what they are. JW daiquiri, man? No, not really a daiquiri fan. What? I don't really know much about daiquiris either, to be honest. Maybe had two in my whole life. What? You gotta fix this. Yeah, yeah. We could change it up. open. open to it. You're gonna mix one up for them then. I wish that the Greek guys were real so that a Thunderbolt can fly out of the sky and strike you down. Oh, thank you. Strike me down. Isn't isn't daiquiri, isn't that like the drink that when you're applying for a bartending job they ask you to make? It's one of them. It's an indicator drink. So, uh, like the Manhattan's an indicator drink. Can someone make a decent Manhattan daiquiri is an indicator drink? Yeah, it's one of those things. Anyway. I can't even go. I can't even go on people. Dan writes, I'm working on improving my daiquiri game, which is currently very weak. Nastasia, the daiquiri is weak. You are weak. Yeah, I love... WWE's doing some selfies. Nastasia. What? I think I can do that too. What? Did you see your shirt? No, what does he say? Always be creating. So we have more than one Glengarry, Glenn Ross reference in the room right now. Anyway, shout out ideas and food. Yeah, Dan. Wait, that's an ideas and food t-shirt? is he a fan of are they a fan of Glengarry Glenn Ross? I would imagine so. Alex Anaki or Gary Glenn Ross fans. Is anyone not a fan of Glenn Gary Glenn Ross? Dave, have you seen Glenn Garry Glenn Ross? Yeah, long time ago. Do you not occasionally watch Alec Baldwin's monologue on the YouTube? What, you do it like every so often, just to pump yourself up? You have to re-up yourself. Like, you have to, like, get it back. JW? No, once again, I'm drawing a blank here. Oh, you gotta see it. I have a DVD. Get another Thunderbolt strike. He's pilot ashes. Okay, I will send it to you. Alec Baumlin, regardless of where you stand on Trump and his Trump imitation, one of the great monologues of all times, all times is the speech that he gives to the salespeople in
+
+[50:18] Glengarry, Glenn Ross, where, uh, it's just like it needs to be, and 1st of all, like a super sexy 80s out
+
+[50:25] bow. Am I right, Nastasia? Like super hardcore, like, yeah. And just like, you know, Baldwin at his best. Got to go see them. Only closers get coffee. Yeah. The coffee. down. Yeah, yeah. I just love that movie. Anyway, so many good people in it. It's not about movies. It's about food. Okay. I'm working on my Dakri game, which is very weak. And I was wondering what particular rum brands and types you recommend for the classic daiquiri versus the
+
+[50:52] Hemingweig daiquiri versus the Thai basil daiquiri. I have to say it, Booker and Dax. We switched up what rum we used for either of those two. Since you're in Chicago. I mean, like, if you're in, if you're abroad, like, I really, I like Havana 3 is really
+
+[51:05] nice, Havana Club 3, but you can't get that here yet, even though Castro is dead, like, he still can't get that here yet. I think a lot of that is because that trademark is in contention between
+
+[51:16] Bicardi and a bunch of other people, but that's a good one. Florida Cana, the white one, the is one kind of one of the standard ones that we used. I like that. I like any sort of like vaguely fruity, not solventy smelling, not overpowering. I wouldn't go heavy hogo, although a heavy hogo daiquiri can also be good. Look, Jack Schram, you know, formerly a Booker and Dax, a head bartender now at Nomad, he
+
+[51:43] was, he loved Super Hogo, which is that hard to describe. Hogo is that smell in certain rums like Smith and Cross and Ray and Nephew,
+
+[51:52] Apple tins and all this. He loved like Hogo in a daiquiri, and he even liked like an aged rum daiquiri. I prefer white rum in a regular daiquiri. And what works in a regular daiquiri works in a Thai basil daiquiri. You should just never make a heavyweight daiquiri, so don't worry about what rum to use in a heavyweight daiquiri. if you should make the mistake of making a heavyweight daiquiri, add a little extra sugar to it. Additionally, I just purchased a BDX cocktail cube and was wondering, when I'm creating a cocktail with egg white, do I use the cocktail cube during the dry shake and the shake with ice or just during the shake with
+
+[52:20] ice? Use it both, Dan, both. All right. We have more time, right? No, you don't. We have an alkaline noodle question. We have a well, 1st of all, we I don't want to do the Auckland noodle question. We have one more question, Dave. Oh, we have so many though. You choose wisely. All right, Rich, what do you want? What do you want to talk about? I like alkaline noodles. You have a lot of alkaline noodles. We also have like a lot of questions. Yeah. about like indie Jesus. and gluten. I have an idea. Why don't we spend this time talking about the question we want to answer? No, you know what? You're not a nice person. You're just not a nice person. all right Jesse writes in, what, making ramen noodles at home. He also has a question. She also has a question on pureeing salsa, we'll get to that next week. Making ramen noodles at home. Alkaline noodles require an alkaline element. Baking soda can be baked to change from sodium bicarbonate, the sodium carbonate, which is a stronger base. On a molecular level, what is physically different about alkaline noodles from other noodles? I'm not a very scientific person, but I remember reading something about the bonds in the noodles and hydrogen molecules. I was hoping Dave could break it down, Jesse. So what you're talking about is a hydrogen bonding, but on further research, and you guys are
+
+[53:36] probably, you know, I'll know this, but in my mind, it's always been, you know, gluten network, acidity makes it weaker, which is why sourdough bread is kind of slack
+
+[53:46] sometimes and has problems. And alkaline conditions make the gluten network stronger. But as I was researching today, just to make sure, it turns out, it's a lot freaking more complicated than that. And I don't know that anyone actually, um, has it. I mean, I don't know that's 100% figured out. I think it's mostly figured out, but it's not as simple as alkaline situations make the gluten network
+
+[54:10] stronger because there's also starch interactions, with the alkaline, um, conditions. So I don't know. Do you know anything about it, rich? I don't know anything about it, but I know Alex helped me in terms of accelerating the cook time for Koji rice by doing an alkaline bath. Yeah, I mean, it's, what do you mean? Basically, you did an alkaline bath before we did a steaming, and it basically powered the cook time to like 15 minutes versus almost an hour.
+
+[54:39] Right. So, well, what happens is in alkaline conditions, uh, starch, like vegetables and things like that, starches and
+
+[54:47] pecking break down a lot more quickly than they would in a, um, than they would in an acidic environment, which is why one of the reasons why, so you know how like they say that when you add acid to a veg, it, um, when you add acid to a veg, it like has the problem
+
+[55:02] of, uh, the acidity causes the chlorophyll to go bad faster. But it also takes longer to cook. When I used to do vinegar baked vinegar. I used to cook potatoes and vinegar for vinegar fries, and it would take for freaking ever. You ever try that? No, I haven't. forever. So that's why when you add a pinch of baking soda to something to keep it green, right? I think there's 2 things going on. One, I think that the alkaline conditions help preserve the
+
+[55:30] chlorophyll making it greener, but it also accelerates quite drastically the cooking time, right? Which is why things go mushy, which is why the interesting thing to do is instead of adding baking soda to your broccoli water, add calcium
+
+[55:43] hydroxide because the calcium will strengthen the pectin at the same time that the basic nature of it will help the
+
+[55:50] greening. So you get kind of the best of both worlds. So on the way out, I know we have to leave. We also tasted from Rich, some straight Koji, right? Yeah, Jasmine Rice Koji. Jasmine Rice Koji. What do you think, guys? I liked it. Peanut butter, miso cookies. What do you think? Peanut butter miso cookie. Delicious. All right. And we tasted some, you said you used Tozi's, which one? Yeah, basically I hacked the tozy recipe on her butterscotch, which is basically brown sugar, miso, and a little bit of water and butter.
+
+[56:24] And you just pretty much mix it or blitz it, dissolve it out, and then you have pretty much a butterscotch without any sort of sugar cooking.
+
+[56:31] Nice. Nice. Nice. All right, so cool. So go on to Rich's Instagram, our Cook Quest. Check out all the many things that he makes with Koji. I'm actually pretty surprised at the different range of flavors you get out of all the stuff that
+
+[56:44] you've brought today. What do you guys think? I was very surprised. Yeah. And thanks. Oh, and come party with us at the MoFat after party on Thursday. As soon as you say after party, do we have reignition? Well, no, we have got the guy from Tribe called Quest is hosting 85 bucks. And you get a bunch of food, open bar. Dave will be. Did you really just say the guy from instead of just naming who it is? Hello, everybody. This is Jerobi from a tribe called Quest. Yeah. That's right That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. It gonna be a good time. So that's at the MoFed website. All right. And just as a shout out, I'm also on the auction. If anybody in New York City wants to have a miso, learn how to make
+
+[57:21] miso. I'm on the auction site. And JW will be there as well, so you can go over and talk to JW about his lack of love for his own El Paso brand. He's never even visited their fregan factory. Nastasio will be in the corner hating on you. Please come so that Nastasia can hate on you in person. If you've never been hated on by Nastasia Lopez in person. It is something to be experienced. Am I right, guys? Classic. Yeah, yeah. Cooking issues.
+
+[57:53] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E.
+
+[0:16] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly
+
+[0:25] one. Admiral Bird's Futuria here in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined, as usual, with Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? Got Dave in the booth as per. What up? How you doing? Got 2 special guests in in the booth today in the shipping container. We have, of course, you know, what are you? You're a regular, you're like a regular guest, right? Yeah, the regular regular guest. We got Ariel from formerly of Nordic
+
+[0:53] cooking universe, formerly of UC Davis, and currently doing the food thing at the Massachusetts, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's true. True. Yeah. And what's your title over there? Director's fellow. Director's fellow. You're the director's fellow. So, like, is it, like, one step from being the fellow of the director to being the director, director of what? It's like being a familiar or something. Yeah, yeah, like I take on a cat shape and then like advise. Yeah, so for those of you not hip to uh, old school uh, sorcery, the familiar is
+
+[1:29] the, is the person that the devil comes and uh, and no, it's the, no, it's the actual personification of the devil, right? The witch is the witch and the familiar is the personification of the devil on earth. Right. I mean, I was thinking about it more in an advanced dungeons and dragons format, or like Sabrina the Teenage Witch, because there was that talking cat in it. That's just what I... mean, that's me. That's like at me, you'd be like, oh, wisecracking... But technically, the familiar is the stand-in for the devil on earth, right? And wonderfully today, and it's unfortunate that you can't see it. But Ariel's with us in talking cat form today. Nice. So please, if you can just imagine that while listening. Nice. And the person that you're hearing chime in there is the one, the only, Peter Meehan. Uh, and I don't know, you tell me what your title, what you want your title to be. I'm just going to say food media impresario. I think that gives me too much credit. I am the editor of the currently doomed food publication Lucky Peach, which we're wrapping up work on right now, and I write cookbooks. And yeah, I'm just, I'm happy to be here with you guys to eat pizza. Currently doomed is a fantastic band name. It's a, yeah. And and then also an app description of the last 6 years of my work. Well, but the thing about, the interesting thing about, like, currently doomed is, 1st of all, like, we're all doomed. We are all doomed, but like currently doomed. like, it's like, it's like being on, I don't want to make light of, but it's like, it's like we know
+
+[2:58] we're, we're getting the needle this weekend. It's like all of this days of execution are over. So I'm just at the point where I'm like, can I get 6 orders of McDonald's French fries and some ice cream on top of that? Thanks. Wow, so there's there's no governor to call. No, the, the, the, no, the governor's just going to come and watch when it happens at this point. You're in your, like, phase. Yeah. And the old Scott's marked for death, offense of the word. All right, so speaking of Scots, I know I talked a little bit about it last week because I was in Scotland like a week and a half ago or something like this. And it's a great what? And, uh, I'm learning bagpipes again. Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's rewind that again. Was there a time at which previously you had experimented with bagpipery? So like, yeah, 15 years ago, there was a 16. There was a society in like the Upper East side that was like... Don't try to make this sound fancy. No, no, no. They taught like cops and firefighters how to play bagpipes. So there was this like lesson that you could get. So then I went to said lesson. I bought, see, bagpipe is one of the very few instruments where no one allows you to play the actual instrument for a long time after you started learning it because it's just so
+
+[4:11] horrific. The idea of you inflating that bag and just going to it is so horrifying to
+
+[4:17] everybody that they don't. I mean, that statement alone is so... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have to learn on this thing called a practice chanter, which, believe this or not, Nastasia, sounds worse than a recorder. If there is possible to have an instrument that is more grating on the
+
+[4:32] nerves than the recorder, it is the practice chanter. Wow. Which, for all intents and purposes, is a slightly quieter, real chanter is the thing that makes the notes on a bagpipe other than the drums. Okay. So, uh, I, you know, practice for like a couple of months on my practice channel, as soon as I get ready to get a real set of pipes, I laid into the bag
+
+[4:50] once and Jen, my wife was like, absolutely not. This is over, it all got thrown away. Like, I was, I, thankfully, it was like a, to save our marriage? It was a worthless set of pipes anyway. worthless set of pipes. Anyway, but like, uh, that was a long time ago and I only had the apartment in New York. Then about 6 months ago. I was like, I'm going to learn again. And I hit the practice tanner once and my son Booker was like, I'm going to break that in half. You're an idiot. Like, this is, you're a bad human being. Why are you doing this? And Jim, my wife was like, yeah, he's right. You know what I mean? This is horrible. So, but then I went to Scotland, I was like, crap on it. So now I have purchased to practice with electronic bagpipes. Wow. Yeah. That sounds like a new genre. Yeah. Well, have you brought them with you today? I have. God, that was such a good natural buildup and reveal. Wow. That's it. These are the That's that's the size of an electronic, it's like, it's electronic, man. Wow. looks like a recorder. Yes, yes. Yeah. Or a small fight. You have to plug your ears into it and you don't blow in it or anything. dead silent. Oh, okay. So anyway, so the reason I'm mentioning this is that I need someone in New York City to,
+
+[6:01] uh, I need to take some lessons because I need to get good enough at bagpipes to play a song when we open the bar, which is extremely aggressive since that, like, I hope to open, you know,
+
+[6:11] sometime around August. So it's extremely aggressive to want to be able to play an actual game. don't have to do a good job. You just have to be confident enough to do it in public. A song. Right. I know a guy who knows a guy. Yeah? Yeah. All right. And speaking of this, last week, we were talking here, and I was describing how I had dinner with you, and, you know, the guy next to me happens to be the lead singer of
+
+[6:35] Pavement, and I freaked out, and no one here had listened to Pavement. Just to show you kind of what kind of people you're dealing with. Like, these are the people you're dealing with. Wait, where was this? Here. I, you didn't know, was it you, Dave, who didn't? Oh, no, someone else maybe was in the booth. It wasn't fucking me. Didn't we talk about this in Scotland? I feel like this is a read. Maybe it was Scotland. Oh, maybe it wasn't on the radio show. Maybe it was in Scotland. And I was just so horrified at the quality of people that I was. I think I was one of those people. I wonder if Pavement never made it big in Scotland, but if it hasn't, your Scottish listeners should really tune in. Yeah, what do they just sit around listening to not garbage style, but just garbage the band, Scottish. Which is a good, I like garbage. Garbage and the proclaimers. Like that's it. Oh my god. So anyway, you had a music story as you were coming in here. You were saying you had to listen to stuff because your staff, before you send them on their merry way. Well, they're they're all listening right now when we'll probably bombard us with phone calls. So, no, I just, I was surprised when there was not a wide awareness of the works of public enemy.
+
+[7:34] So that's been, no, but I, but it's not really office music. It's office music when you're about to close. certainly is. Right. Like fear of a black planet is really, you know, it's kind of a heavy soundtrack to like, let's make food stories.
+
+[7:48] Yeah, we know what's even like harder. Like, the stuff that no one listened to is like, uh, um, uh, 1991,
+
+[7:55] the uh, enemy strikes black. That's like, you know, by the time I get to Arizona where they literally threaten the life of the Arizona governor. I mean, I think that that's how old are you? 46. Yeah, I'm going to be 40 this fall and I feel like for dudes of our age, that was like the thing, like listening to NRA, NWA, like growing up, but
+
+[8:14] now, I still remember the... Yeah, you're not seeing my face, but I still remember the 1st time I heard straight out of Compton. This was it. You know, like, I'm doing the, I'm doing the Westchester white boy. Right. Like the hands to the lips. But is this allowed? But then you put on like... Are they actually murderers? Are they murdering PayPal? Like that's, you know, that's Westchester white boy right there. They're bad people. They're rapists and murderers. I did not have that. They deal drugs. This is bad. That's was, well, we're, Dave, you had a bad reaction to the wall. Well, the wall, I was really young. what was that song? It came out when I was like eight. I had a bad reaction to the wall when I was like, what do you mean we don't need any education? Yeah. Well, I saw that movie and I, oh, really? Like you were like, I was like, this is a bad message. It's kind of terrible music too. Oh, now step back. Yeah, no. I just, I had a better... If you don't eat your meat, Dave. You can't have your pudding. How can you have your pudding? I said, don't get your meat. I did that. that to Dax all the time. He doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about because my wife hates the wall, and so I can't really listen to it. I had a waiter recently say that to my daughter at the table. To the act, the whole thing? No, just the, well, if you don't need your meat, you gotta have your pudding. and I was like, you're an old creep, and I identified with you. Jeez. All right, so call in all of your either MIT technical questions, your, uh, how to uh, shut down a magazine with style questions, your Nastasi Lopez
+
+[9:56] questions, or any questions you have, uh, you know, dedicated either to uh, me, Dave Arnold or Dave
+
+[10:01] and DeBooth, uh, to 718-497-2128. That 718-497, uh, 21, a 28. We have a caller. There you go. Call or you're on the air. Hello, Dave. Hi. Hi. I'm trying to make a foam. that's similar to the head of a Guinness that can sit on a carbonated beverage and not take on too much carbonation and bubble over, and I've added
+
+[10:26] gelatin, some, even marshmallow fluff to my base, but it's still overclosed when added to the beverage. Marshmallow fluff. I'm thinking of trying versa whip, methyl cellulose, 50 or even powdered
+
+[10:37] airquites, but I wanted your advice. F 50 is great for that. That's what Sam Mason used to use. So F50. I mean, he literally used to make a Guinness foam with F50. Sam Mason for those of you that, I don't know, were born yesterday. It's like one of the great pastry chefs of all time, then went on to be an excellent savory chef at Taylor and now is like an ice cream magnate in Brooklyn.
+
+[11:00] Anyway, so he used to use F50. And whenever I was doing foams for, um, things, I would, I always gravitate towards a methyl cell, uh, F 50, uh, the one thing is,
+
+[11:13] remember you have to whip F 50 for a long time, there has to be something in it that wants to foam, like, uh, some sort
+
+[11:19] of, like, protein or whipping agent in along with the F 50 to really help it along. And also remember, you're going to do that in a KitchenAid, and you're going to spoon it on top. You're not going to try to put it out of an EC whip and you're not, you know, otherwise, yeah, it's going to be a freaking nightmare. If you try to inject the whole thing and have the foam rise to the top, your life is over. So that's a whisk, don't sheer type of situation. Well, so typically for F50, what you'll do is, is, uh, is, uh, what I'll do is, is I'll vortex
+
+[11:46] it in in a blender, then put it into my KitchenAid and, and like, do it. The one thing it won't work well in typically is milk systems. Um, some people like versa whip. I never liked versa whip because versa whip, sometimes even when verse whip's
+
+[11:58] gonna work, uh, it like takes its sweet time about it. So you'll be sitting there with the kitchen aid with the beater, for like 5 minutes, you're like, this crap's not
+
+[12:08] going to work. And then all of a sudden, poof, like the verse clip just like pops up. Speaking of KitchenAids, I just fixed a KitchenAid this morning. This morning I fixed a KitchenAid. Have you ever reassembled an entire KitchenAid and then looked down and you left one washer out of the exact middle of the
+
+[12:23] gearbox? Sounds like you. In fact, is me. If you had done that, you would be living my this morning. Uh, yeah, cheers to that. Does that make sense? Excellent. Thank you very much. No problem. Uh, yeah. So I mean, I don't know. What do you have any thoughts? Any of you, like, I've spent too many years of my life sitting around making method cell at 50 phones. I was just like, No, but the kids, are you a fan of the KitchenAid stand mixer? Yeah, why wouldn't I be a fan of the KitchenAid stand mixer? against it? No, no, I had a friend who had a bunch of the 5 quarts burnt out on her and then I got... What does she do for a living? She was a baker at the time. No, she's doing something else. not meant for that. And I got a Brevel stand mixer and I gave away my old KitchenAid 4.5 quart stand mixer and some sort of
+
+[13:14] exotic, strange buttercream, yellow color, and now my wife is like bummed that we don't have it anymore, and I'm worried I'm going to have to like Indian give that with my friend just going with a swap for the Brevel. Have you tried the Brevel Stan? I said here's what happened. Breville sent me a couple of years ago or a year ago. Basically, every freaking thing that they make, like, stuff that I didn't even know, like, was a thing that you could make, like,
+
+[13:37] like a tea maker. I didn't know that you needed a teammaker. Turns out, you do, you do, you need a teammaker. Did not send me the stand mixer. I then tried to, I was like, I'm gonna go get the stand mixer. And that's the hard one. They're not pushing the stand mixer very hard, so that's actually the more difficult one
+
+[13:55] to like beg borrow and steal around. And I've had the KitchenAid for 8000000000 years. And then literally, my mother-in-law was like, I have this broken KitchenAid. I was like, I know how to fix a kitchenade. So they're like, you know, because like I do. You know what I mean? It's like, and so you have the KitchenAid, why would you not, you know, uh, why would you not use the KitchenAid? The one I have has the metal gears, although I've heard the Brevels very nice. Do you enjoy it? I enjoy it as much as I use it, but I'm not the baker of the family, so I don't
+
+[14:22] have like the day to day. Like, it gets a little bit jumpy with a hard dough on the counter, you know, like... Everything gets a little jumpy with a hard dough on the counter. Oh my god. This is a family program. Yes, yeah. Want to take another call? Sure, call her, you're on the air. Yo caller. Color. Color. Hello? Hey. Hi, Dave. I have a question for you that might applied to your upcoming sous vide book. I'm wondering if you have put much thought and attention into awesome things to do with sous vide bag juices,
+
+[14:59] especially in the context of making pan sauces. Nastasia. I'm kind of guess here that you hate the word bag juices. She's making her, she's making her bag juice face. Here's some issues with bag juices. So, um, Typically because of... I create a chapter called bag juices. Bag juices. Well, that's, you know, honestly, like we all know I'm not allowed to call the book The Miracle of Moisture Management, but that's really what it's about. I have a I have actually a title for the book, but you know, I probably shouldn't give it out, but it's not going to be unfortunately the miracle of moisture
+
+[15:35] management. But one of the things about the moisture that exits meat when it comes out of the bag is that it has a lot of uncoagulated proteins, which, you know,
+
+[15:46] Ariel, you could probably... And what's good about an uncoagulated protein? Not much because when you try to make a pan sauce, it goes, and it looks like you have these nasty gray egg whites in
+
+[15:56] it. Ariel, you're familiar with this problem, yes? Or you can understand it's like, yes. I am familiar So good news about that nasty business is that it is actually a clarification aid. So if you want it to be slightly clear, what I would do is put the pan juices, gently bring them up to a boil without losing too much of it, and then strain it through. First of all, everyone uses coffee filters. If I could go back in time and shoot everyone who I would not really shoot. But you know what I mean? Like, you know, like dissuade people from coffee filters are a nightmare. The hours of my life I've wasted trying to strain things through coffee filters when we ran out of like cheese clock. Yeah, yeah, horrifying. Just use a dish towel. days back. Just use a dish towel. Like dish towels are great. Just don't use one that you've worn through so there's big holes, but a standard dish towel, so long as it's clean and doesn't have any holes, drains like a
+
+[16:45] mother and filters pretty well. Do you agree, Ariel? Oh, yeah, like... This child is even better than like the stuff that they sell as cheesecloth store. Yeah, because here's why I've never told anyone to go buy cheesecloth because they're going to go to the supermarket and they're going to buy what amounts to medical
+
+[16:59] gauze. And that is that, what do you... Yeah, what are you straining? Pebbles? Like what the hell is that? Like that is a useless, it's useless. It's like it doesn't deserve to be called cloth. It's gauze. It's not. I mean, that's why they have the word gauze as a separate thing from cloth. You know what I mean? It's like, it's horrifying. Like we're not making mummies. We're trying to filter things. So you should definitely never use that garbage. So I would straight. I mean, as long as you don't use like the dish towel that your mother-in-law bought for you at like an exhibition or
+
+[17:31] something and it would upset her to see a gigantic green stain on it. Depends on how you feel about your mother-in- law. Well, okay, yeah. a great way to send a message. Yeah, yeah, here's another thing. If you're using something that you also, if you're straining something that's green, that hasn't been cooked yet, it's also going to turn black, which is like, it depends on whatever greenery you're putting through it, but like, you
+
+[17:53] know. It's like an oil that you've already. Yeah, nightmare, nightmare. Anyway. But the point is, I would use that. And I use that stuff 100% of the time. And then chefs are always like, aren't you worried about that? I'm like, no. Wait, what is there to worry about? They're worried. I don't know. They're all worried about the cloth. They're worried that it's been treated with some sort of something. wash it first. Thank you. Like, buy like 20 dishcloths, put it through the clothes washer, and then you have like a stack of like clean, usable
+
+[18:18] filters for your house. So what else do you do with meat juice from the bag juice? So, yeah, bag juice. So here's the other thing. back to this, unfortunately. Here's another thing you need to know about bag juice in general. I myself with a lot of bag juice at this age. Well, okay, so like, let's say you're the kind of person who, um, who is
+
+[18:36] doing uh, low temperature braise work. Let's say you're that kind of a person. I don't know that you are saying you are. We can say that. Okay. let's roleplay it. Right, right. I'm the sort of person who does a lot of low temperature braise work. Okay, well, one thing I'm going to tell you is that most of your guest slash customers will prefer a high temperature braise because it's going to have more meaty flavors, but low temperature braises have their place, their interesting texture, they're good for plating out,
+
+[18:59] et cetera, et cetera. You can cut them. okay? for like the like rare short rib. Yeah, or even like, you know, like a medium short. Yeah, any of these things or like lamb shanks or any of these things that you're
+
+[19:10] going to actually put a sauce in the bag with it, like or like cocazin or one of these kinds of things, right? And we're distinguishing here between bag sauces and bag juices. Well, juices being the undesired leftover juice at the end of the bag process. This is where it all comes back together again, Peter. So what you have is, is you have your bag, you try to put your sauce in because you put yourself, but people always make the freaking mistake. Always, always, always make the mistake of not reducing the bag sauce enough because they're not accounting for the dilution of the
+
+[19:40] bag juices. And what happens is when you add, because there's no reduction in a bag, people. There's no reduction. Where would it go? There's nowhere for it. Is it gonna go? Where's the juice gonna go, buddy? There's nowhere for it to go. nowhere for it to go. Where's the bag juice going to? just going to stay in the bag. in the bag. So now all of a sudden the natural environment. Now, if you didn't reduce your sauce enough. when I say reduce, I don't mean, oh, a little more reduced, oh, a little bit. No, I'm talking like gelatin, ping pong balls, like reduced. It's going to taste like a freaking, like a freaking pot a feu, like a freaking poached piece of meat. And do you want a poached piece of meat? No, because if you wanted to post peach meat, what would you have done? You would have poached it, right? I would have low temperature poached it. Yeah, because that's who I am. I want to keep the role-playing. Right, there you go. All right. So my point being that if you don't want a poached meat texture, If you don't want that pate a feu texture, let's assume it's beef, then over reduce your stuff because you got to worry about the juices. Now, then you could take that stuff. You still have to hit it with some energy and strain it through a dish
+
+[20:47] towel or you're going to get those nasty float floaty bits. But once you get those nasty floaty bits out, it's great for pan juice. So I should over-reduce my sauce to account for the bag juice dilution.
+
+[21:00] If you don't, you're a bad person. And then I need to strain it through a dish towel that my mother-in-law. Yes, after you heat the... So after it comes out of the bag, you have to heat it to coagulate the non-coagulated, globular,
+
+[21:15] extracted globular proteins. Obviously. Duh, jerk. And then strain that through your mother-in-law's dish towel. And then as long as it's clean. And then what is the end result of that? Then you have something you can work with. Would you put it over buttered noodles? Well, you'd need to probably thicken it still again slightly with use some sort of liaison, maybe
+
+[21:37] Bermani. Are you a Bermani fan? What about fluff? I would not use fluff for that unless it was a, unless you cooled it off and then just whipped it in. But that sounds super gross. Yeah. Sounds super, super gross. But, wait, I had some more things. Also, the stuff that comes out of a bag always needs brightening. So you need to kind of brighten it up. If you're doing a lot, lot of it, you can refreshen it with a little bit of fresh meat or you can just hit it with a little bit of acid or a little bit of, it's gonna need a little bit of something. It never comes out of the bag tasting like bright and fresh. Another thing I'll say about the, uh, the juice that comes out. What was I going to say? It was something. It was important. Oh my god, it was important. It was like the key thing. And now it's just out of my mind. It was the key to using the bag juice. It was the key to using the bag juice. Oh, oh, oh, oh, listen. If you're gonna use it. So, like, um, if you've had something in the bag for a long time and it's raw and you haven't cooked it yet, right? What happens is you develop something called kind of confinement aroma and you don't, you want to, you want to not have that in your, in your bag juice. And also, if you're bad, if you're using like dry aged meat with the bone still in it, the dry age funk from the bone can kind of make the
+
+[22:54] sauce like really funky. So you just got to make sure that that's what you want. Is this making any sense, color? What are the worst things you've ever done with bag juice? Like I imagine you've tried and failed with bag of juice before. I mean, I've just heated it, it coagulated, and I'm like, oh, no, and poured it over the meat and then called it a day. I mean that's the absolute worst thing you could do. Bag juice, blender. Bag juice blunders, which is that's a chapter right there. Bag juice blunders in the... That's the episode... Yeah. Anyway, so you're going to have to correct it. You're gonna need some acid. Um, you know, you can do, uh, you can use like a small quantity of it and then mount it with butter. You can hit it with a bermanee if you want. I mean, I'm a big fan of mountain. The problem with mounting with butter is, um, you got to be careful and you have to, like, know that people are going to sit, right? That's like an aliminute, kind of a Sitch. If they're not going to sit, which, you know, you know, my family's not going to sit until I get so angry at them, that they're like, why do you always ruin dinner? I'm like, it is not me. Why are you never sitting? Like, why are you, why is my own family ruining everything I do and care about? Yeah, right. Right, right, right. Yeah, what else? Yeah, right? Like, why do you enjoy my pain so much? You know what I hate? I hate this is what I hate. It's like, I'm like, okay, I'll be like, I'll be like, in 5 minutes, I'm going to serve dinner. Five minutes. I'm going to serve dinner in 5 minutes. And then they wait until that. And then when it comes out, then they're like, oh, I need to light some candles. Oh, now I need to go get the napkins. Oh, now's the time I need to pee. No, I gave you the 5 minute warning. And then they bring up the bagpiping as an example of why you're a bad person. Exactly. Are you like, I feel like you've been at every dinner that I've ever had, Peter,
+
+[24:35] because... It's going to end with bag juice in your bagpipe. Bag. no, you don't want it. Now, Ariel, you'll be pleased to know that newer bagpipes have
+
+[24:42] a synthetic bags so that you don't need to like, it's not like some stinking rotting leather nightmare. But isn't that like part of the whole experience? Not for me. What was the old bag made for? Like just a leather bag. Like, originally it was... Like a sheep bladder? Well, not a bladder, originally. Like a stomach? The whole freaking, like, animal. Like you take a small animal and think about it. It's got like holes for 3 drones, a chanter, the
+
+[25:08] blow pipe, and then one extra. You only got to sew up one hole, and then, you know, and you're good to go. You know, in fact, I saw a guy playing. I saw a guy playing a small goat skin bagpipe where you
+
+[25:22] could see the outline of the goat in Greece when remember that in the stuff? Anyway, so I feel like your memoirs could be called. You only got sew up one hole. So one hole, baby. I mean, think about it. The guy's like, what am I going to do with this goat skin? Let's turn it into a bag. Hey, I got an idea. Harvey, I got this idea. What if we put a pipe in it? That's how this stuff happens. Anyway. Italian. American. I don't know, man. Your Scottish accent is amazing. So anyway, the new the new pipe bags have a zipper in them so that you can open them and air them
+
+[25:55] out. and they're really, really, some of them. Do they fill with spittle? Well, yes, they do. And so this is no joke. They don't recommend it. I am not joking. They have moisture. It called moisture management things for the insides
+
+[26:07] of... Oh, your ideas were stolen from bagpipery, weren't they? Totally, 100%. And nowadays, for those of you who want the convenience of a synthetic bag, but really like the feel of a
+
+[26:18] natural who doesn't, but like the feel of a natural, like, leather bag, right? You want the convenience of the synthetic and the feel of the natural? I feel like you're describing my private life. strong enough for a man been made for a woman. Made for a woman. You know what I always say for that one for that for that roll on. I just, as soon as it's strong enough for men. Done, I'm buying it. They're like, but it's made for women. don care. You say it was strong enough for me. That's what I'm buying. Anyway, they make a synthetic bag coated with leather now. called a hybrid bag. Wow. With a zippa and moisture management. Although, I don't recommend you go for the moisture management. So am I right in assuming that bag teachers have a different connotation with back hype. Hanging in there. in your kitchen. I think you were exactly correct. Bag juices in a bagpipe are to be avoided, and bag juices in your meat are to be used. Hey, here's another one. appropriately shepherded Yes, I, uh, so like, uh, here's a piece of equipment that nobody has anymore. The gravy separator. Remember the gravy separator? Oh, yeah, it looks like a measuring cup of the little spout comes up from the bottom. That's right I've thrown away many of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. many, many, many, right? I mean, with, with, I would assume that since your Twitter, uh, since your Instagram handle is grease trap, that you would have a bunch, enough that you could throw away 20 and still have some left. But, uh, but my point is, is that if you, if let's say you're cooking, let's say you're not using a vacuum machine. Let's say you're doing the Ziploc technique for sealing a piece of meat. You're always going to seal it in with a little bit of oil. Otherwise you're not going to get a good seal around it. And so there, you can separate the juices from the oil with one of those separator doodads. You know, Ariel's like, why don't you choose a separatory
+
+[27:56] funnel because they don't have a separatory funnel area. Come on. And then you can... Come on. And then you can use the oil for your garlic bread, and you can use, and you know, where's garlic bread
+
+[28:07] gone, people? Garlic bread is was like one of the great 70s staples. Where's garlic bread gone? It remains great. It's it's, do you need to make garlic bread great again? I think we need to make people great again such that they enjoy the garlic bread. When was the last time you went out and were like, I want garlic bread. Bring garlic bread to the table. doesn't happen anymore. It's not offered. Did they offer it here at Roberta's? getting garlic bread here. I mean I love garlic bread. You know, but the other thing is, you know what they buy now? The kids, the millennial freaks, they buy they buy this thing called garlic knots, which is like you go to the guy at the pizza store. Well, what do you got against garlic knots? A guy to pizza store, not to use the same accent again, but the guy at the pizza store is like, yo, I got all this overproof
+
+[28:50] doha. What the hell am I gonna do with it? Tied into a knot, paint some freaking grease on it? Put some garlic powder on it, throw it in the oven for 5 minutes. Boom, garlic knots. And you're already eating pizza. What the hell do you need a garlic knot for if you're already eating freaking pizza? And the garlic knot is fundamentally useless without the marinara sauce. Just eat another slice of pizza. But would you rather have garlic bread instead of the garlic knot? that what you're saying? Not when I'm having pizza. But when I'm having steak? Garlic bread. But nobody said you have to eat it with pizza. Well, I'm going to the pizzeria just to get freaking garlic knots and no pizza. It's not a garlic, not a rhea. You know what I mean? And like, 2017 is hottest startup. Anyways. And like, I remember the 1st time someone said garlic nuts. I'm like, garlic nuts, what the hell are you talking about? And he's like, no, not garlic knots. I'm like, what? I still can remember it. I remember to this day, it happened sometime. The garlic knot thing happened. I'm going to want to say like mid-nineties, I want to say. Have you ever used bag juices in the making of garlic knots? Do you think that they could help them? No, but I have used it in garlic bread. So to get back to like where we once started. Let's say let's say you're going to take a bread that's like slightly stale and you're going to
+
+[29:58] do... I hate, what's that Catalonian thing where they mash up tomatoes? That stuff is terrible. It's bad. Like, they love it. I don't like the bread and the tomato quality, unless it's the right season, is garbage, but they serve it all year. If you make it out of garbage, it tastes like garbage. But they serve it all year. Anyways, like you can use the meat juices for a situation like that to slightly moisten some hard bread in a
+
+[30:20] rust situation to put some stuff on top of it and it's good. I have done that. And then the oil, if you're gonna, you can use the oil for garlic bread is a separate thing. Anyways. You want to take a quick break? Okay, quick break. come back with maybe some questions that people wrote in. I hope so. Call in all of your questions to the cooking issues.
+
+[30:43] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kickass, juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[31:20] gets you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
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+[31:25] Browse, chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results, so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[31:40] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Contrary to what you just heard, today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks, visit blog.modernistPantry.com. Or is it actually Dave? It brought to us by both people or what? Yeah obviously. Usually brought to you means it's brought to you, like, what, 2 people, like it's got 2 handles. When you watch TV, do you only see one commercial? The show is very heavy. It has a lot of mass. Yeah, no, Dave, here's the thing, right? Imagine yourself on a litter and all of these brands are supporting the litter beneath you. So I'm like a pharaoh and like they're, that means I need 4 people. One of each handle for the two. You could work harder to... That pizza you're holding right now? That's what that's what this is going towards. Yeah, here Dave, here's the thing. Brought to you is like the old school 50s situation where like Palm Olive buys the whole show. Nowadays, it's like, no, you wouldn't say that they brought it to you, you know? I don't know. I have to bring that up with legal. You know what I mean? It's not a bring situation. It's a helped to make possible situation. Viewers like you, which is in fact how we work. Listeners like you. Semantics, Dave, semantics. Life's all about semantics, Peter, especially for a writer. Come on. All right. Maybe that's why my magazine is in there. No, that wasn't even me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got dueling air horns here. The members told me to lay back on the sound effects, so. Really? Are they not a fan of like air horns? don't know. So that... Peter. Dax has been
+
+[33:32] doing this recently. has this, but he's he has the Wilhelm screen, Scream is one of his air horn effects. She's been Wilhelm screaming me all the time. Speaking of Wilhelm Scream, I'm slowly, and we talked about this, I think, last week as well. I'm slowly introducing Dax to the Ouvre of Arnold Schwarzenegger. So we started with Terminator, which is a good place to start, not with Conan, because I consider that pre- the real Schwarzenegger. I mean, it's good, right? Yeah, you go back when you're aware of his works. Right. So, you know, or like Hercules in New York, not going there. No, no, no. So that like late 70s porno work, he did. That's much later. Not in chronology, but in when you introduce your kid to it, yeah. So started with Terminator, and I was surprised to see Bill Paxton as one of the punks. I was like, oh, Bill Paxton. And then, of course, what do you what do you introduce him to after the Terminator, everybody, the greatest movie ever
+
+[34:22] made. Come on. Total recall. Ooh, yes, but not that commando. Oh, wow. Commando is what I like to call not the best movie ever made, but it's a perfect movie. It structurally perfect. Oh wait, no, I'm thinking of Predator now. What happens to commando? Commando. Nothing, really. He just goes around killing people. No. No. I'm not, I'm not saying it's a bad movie,
+
+[34:47] but like, no, this is part of its beauty and its simplicity. No, no, here's what happens. Arnold Schwarzenegger. There's a lot of eye black, right? At the end. Arnold Schwarzenegger is leading an idyllic life. You know, it's another good movie at setting up the ridiculous, idyllic life is face off, right? So, like, in, like, in Commando, they set up the ridiculous idyllic life that Arnold Schwarzenegger has with Alyssa Milano, who's... Oh, yeah, I've seen the beginning of the movie. who's been hot the entire time because she's my age, so I'm allowed, you know, I was allowed to, like, think she was good looking when she was, like, 12 and now, well, anyway, so...
+
+[35:20] like an improbable, beautiful house on a cliff top. That's right. idyllic life and he likes to fish and get ice cream shoved in his face and all this other stuff. So these people want him to kill this leader in another country. So they kidnap the daughter, put him on an airplane, and he has exactly 11 hours to find his
+
+[35:38] daughter and kill everyone involved, or they find out that he's not on that airplane and the daughter dies. So it's got a time limit. He finds Radon Chong. amazing, right? Old school radon Chong. I mean, amazing. So, and he goes to an island and kills every living creature on this island. So it's like perfectly contained movie. There's a reason for everything. It super tight from a movie structure standpoint. So I introduce him to it, Dax to it, and then I realized that, like, bit part again, Bill Paxton is in commando. Maybe they were buddies back in the day. Maybe you should get them both on this show. Well, Patrick just died. Was he in commando? God. Okay, so... Maybe that's another reason my magazine is closing. not enough reverence for Bill Paxton, apparently. Right. When Radon Chong is flying... The Twister demographic sure is vocal. The Coast Guard is like, you must land immediately, and that person was Bill Paxton. And then Arnold Schwarzenegger was like, just fly below the radar and they fly below the radar. Bill guys was like, I lost him. That was it. So your order of great Schwarzenegger movies starts with Terminator? Or is this for appropriateness of introducing to a
+
+[36:47] child? And how old is the child you were introducing these movies to? Well, okay, so he wasn't interested in Schwarzenegger until he saw at a friend's
+
+[36:55] house, kindergarten cop, which is a good way to get your feet wet. It's not the tuma. Great way to get your feet wet. Then, uh, he was like, okay, I'm interested in the Schwarzenegger thing. So you got to start with the breakout role of Terminator because, I mean, come on, Terminator is a great movie. How old is this Booker or Dax? Booker doesn't like movies. It's just Dax. And how old is Dax? 12. Okay. So he can handle some of the themes of a Schwarzenegger movie. Nah, you know, and when I know, I know when someone's going to get a skewer through the head because I've seen the movie like a 1000000000 times. Right. So he also saw Terminator 2. So I'm like, avert your eyes. Well, you know, T T 1000, like, shoves his, like, metal finger thingy. Yeah, whatever it was. That was my favorite movie. Yeah, my dad took me to see Robocop when I was about that age. Oh my god, what a good movie. What a good movie. They remade that, though, recently, didn't they? Yeah, with a guy that I like. I like the guy who's in the new one. I forget his name, but I like him. He's a good actor. But yeah, 1st of all, like, why would you redo Robocop? Okay, we should talk about food, but Dave, what's your favorite Robocop part? I have two. Wait, say that again? What's your favorite part of Robocop?
+
+[38:04] There are 2 that stick right out, right out. You have 15 seconds to comply. I like all the I like all the in-between, like, the fake commercials, actually. Oh, really? I like it when the guy messes with the robot and he shoots the guy in the boardroom, classic. And the other when the bad guy gets coded with toxic waste. remember that part? Classic trope. Oh, yeah, the ball guy? genre. Yeah. Well, he was bald after he got dipped in acid. That for sure. Anyway, let's... Don't even get me started with this era of movies. You want to take call? Sure. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, David, John calling from Falston, Maryland. I have a question for you about soda stream and carbonation. Sure. I've been going through the backlog for, like, the fast four years, and I've noticed that you like your water heavily
+
+[38:49] carbonated, like I do. The top of the soda stream says to 3 buzzes for a normal carbonation, but I'd like to
+
+[38:56] do, like, 8 to 10 farts before I really get it up there. Yeah. Um, my question is, can you, uh, is there a saturation point with the
+
+[39:04] water or can it handle all that? Am I wasting it? Am I doing that much? Most likely, but it's very satisfying waste. So like, uh, probably... I would like to clear up one misunderstanding here, though, is that Dave likes carbonated water more than any other human and he likes his water more carbonated, more specifically carbonated than any other human I've ever
+
+[39:26] encountered. Maybe you can talk through some of your carbonation preferences after you address the soda stream. Yeah, I mean I'll say this. I don't stop at 3 because if there's even the chance of getting marginally more carbonation in, I will do it. But you know there's not. They're most likely is not. Here's the one thing I'm not a scientist. I can't actually say that I'm I'm just a guy with a magazine who's closing. Here's what I'll say about it. One of the issues with the soda stream is getting the water as physically cold as is humanly possible. Right. When I fill up my bottle, I put, I'd use a funnel then put ice cubes in the funnel and then run water through the ice cubes into the
+
+[40:04] bottle and then I carbonate it. All right, good, good. And yeah, good. All right, good. So you're following all the all the advice. The soda stream people are like, no, I mean, I don't know them personally, so I can't say that they are garbage, but the, um,
+
+[40:19] like, the rules that they have about, um, like, cocktails and whatnot, if they had just designed the fart valve a little better,
+
+[40:27] like, you could have done so, like, they could have allowed so many, um, like better things. Uh, here's what you need to do. If you're a carbonation freak, just buy the freaking adapter that allows you to adapt the soda stream to a £20
+
+[40:40] tank. And then you don't have to worry about wasting the farts on the thing because you're
+
+[40:46] going to have so much CO2 that you're not going to know what to do with it. £20 tank is the way to go. Like, without question, a £20 tank is the way to go. And you should do that. Like, how much do you pay for one of those like weenie little cylinders? Um, I think they're like $15. That's absurd. ridiculous. I agree, I agree. Yeah, how much do they weigh? How much gas is in one of those things? I don't know. I could probably get maybe two, 3 dozen bottles out. It's an abomination. That's crazy. It's nuts. First of all, carbonation should be free, just like the internet. It should just come like from God. It's a ripe. Tap water should be carbonated. That's right, which is why I want to move to Saratoga Springs where I never wrote, by the way, I owe Peter an article. And so I was waiting until the magazine closed to say, hey, I'm going to write the article
+
+[41:34] now because then it's too late. Strong move. Strong move. I respect that. Yeah, but so like... The pictures you send of me bathing in Sparkling Water Springs will be indelibly burned into my mind. There's a picture of me in a, I, you cannot tell that I'm naked, thankfully, but I am, in fact, which I hate to be naked ever, but I am naked in the water because you have to
+
+[41:54] be. Are you a never nude? I'm never nude. I'm an anti-in nude. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but I'm never, never, ever new. There's always some scrap of clothing on me at all times. Cutoffs. I'm with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just don't feel, I don't like, no one, no, naked. When I shower. Naked. Temporarily. We're getting into the arrested development territory here. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Bias with a never nude. Yeah. So anyway, so back to the question. I don't know. I don't yes, if I were you, I would buy the adapter. I don't think it costs that, actually, come to think of it, it's funny. The person who I saw selling the adapter for the soda stream was charging an absurd amount for the device so that you wouldn't pay an absurd amount for your
+
+[42:36] CO2. Yeah, of course. Someone just open source that sucker. And what about when you were doing the whole nitrous CO2 mix? I'm going to do that, I think, again, at the new bar. The problem is getting the nitrous. There's only one company in New York City that will give me like bottles of nitrous. And the nitrous price has gone up a lot in the past. Is that because of the Hell's Angels? Why are they using a lot of nitrous now in their bikes? No, they have a, the Hell's Angels Clubhouse on 3rd Street has a nitrous line up through the wall into a number of the rooms.
+
+[43:06] So there's just a spagot so you can... Have you been inside the house? No, I have a friend who went. Look at me. If you were a Hell's Angel, would you let me into one of your parties? No. don't know. Hunter Thompson got into all the Hells Angels parties. Yeah, but he seemed like a good time. I'm just like a wet blanket with a closing food magazine. Anyway, the nitrous, I plan on doing it again. I think the way I'm going to do it, instead of trying to use the gas mixer like I used to use, I think I'm
+
+[43:35] going to pre-mix £20 bottles of gas and then just use that on a separate carbonation
+
+[43:40] line. The problem with, um, The problem with carbonating out of a mixer is that the mixer can only do up to about 60
+
+[43:50] PSI, which is enough to do ice cold water, but if you want to go into a carbonator, I'm probably going to need the max the carbonator can do, which is about 125 PSI. And so it's a, it's a little bit, a little bit long. I hope to bring back that water. Yeah, it was a 25% nitrous, 75% CO2 maximum bubble fizzy lifting drink kind of a situation. You remember that stuff was great. It was amazing because the sweetness of the nitrous in the sparkling water was, yeah. It was just so lively. Such a lively bubble. Back when you were young and your water was lively. Back when I was young and I hadn't had the life beaten out of me by actually like working like a service where the people were like, yeah, it's like, you know, you know, it's
+
+[44:30] like, get the life. Now you're just an old portion of bag juice. Do you know who helped turn me into just a sack of bag juice? You're looking at her right here. She's the only thing that's kept you from turning into full on bag juice. Full on uncoagulated bag juice. I think I think there's a whole show that this could be devoted to. bag juice? No, no. Well, yeah, you're you're change into a bag of juice. Bag of juice. Not even like not even good juice. Are there any other home carbonation systems that you would recommend? Yeah, buy a freaking £20 tank and get the liquid bread caps. And then so that's what I do. I use a bag and so like I have a in my home in New York City, I have carbonation on tap because duh. I have an ice maker, and in the ice machine is my cold plate, and it just runs, and it's on tap. I have a very nice tap. But, um, up in Connecticut. I have, um, I just have £20 tanks with a with a hose and a bag and box connector off of it and liquid bread caps. Occasionally, people complain. They're like, eh, this is the name, I want to use this donus flame. It is too hard to pull on the little gray thing. It's very hard. Oh, God, come on. It's like, you know what? If you're too weak to get the bubbles that way, then freaking die of thirst. Can you say that in Arnold Schwarzenegger's voice, please? I can't too angry. I can't actually channel him when I'm angry. Okay. Dave, that reminds me. One more question, if I may? Yes. Over the years, I've loved the voices that you do. You're Brooklyn guy, the New Jersey guy. love them all. Have you ever been approached by anybody to do cartoon overtones? or anything like that? No, if you know anyone, send them, send them a little voice work acting. Do you know Anastasia and I at one point were contemplating doing the Jersey Bible, where the entire Bible would be read in New Jersey, but then we thought
+
+[46:17] some people might get offended by it, and so, like, we never pursued it. That's awesome. You would totally take ass on Family Guy, dude. Yeah, well, you know, hey, hey, as like I said to everyone else, like,
+
+[46:28] here, here I am to sell myself, just send someone who wants to buy, uh, that that's, uh, right? Anyway. Hey, I got a question from the chat room for Peter. It's a little controversial Uh-oh. Let me read this word for word. Who took Lucky Peach from the slightly serious but a casual feeling to a lot of stunt food type content?
+
+[46:48] Me? Wait, so it stunt food as a pejorative or? I assume? I don't know. I'll take that hit. All right. What's a stunt food? I don't know. I mean, I am interested in, um, I don't I don't think they were doing anything stuntier now than we did back in the day. I've always been interested in, uh, things that are so smart, they're stupid. So, um, you know, I feel like that in the final issue, we're... Yeah, you know, like where that we're working on right now, um, Ariel and I were talking about, she was working on something for the
+
+[47:31] website and it turned in from like a 400 word, like, answer a simple question thing
+
+[47:36] into, like, a 3000 Yeah, 6 months later, research piece about how we taste wine and the last issue of new content we're doing is the suburbs. And I was like, I was like, this is so good. I wanted to I want to put it in the last issue. And so I've made a new front of book section for our last issue called Wednesday Night Wine Club, and it's going to be populated with Anna Hazel, who's now at Taste, who's written
+
+[48:02] Derange Crafts for Us. Did a tasting of all these brands of mommy wines. And then... Wait, mommy wines? Yeah, like mommy's timeout, and Kathy, it's a whole marketing segment. What does mommy like to drink that I don't like to drink? It turns out that I don't want to spoil it, but... Hey, Ridge made a white zen for a little while that was kind of a cool thing to find. apparently makes one. haven't had it yet. The really okay Chardonnay that the kids that UC Davis would call cougar crack. Yeah, but you put a couple ice cubes in that and some sparkling water. I don't know. Like I can find any reason to drink anyone. Is it cougar a specific age or a specific age going after a younger dude? Can you like, can you be a cougar and be age appropriate or not? No, no, no. It's always a younger man. Okay, just curious. So the prey determines the predator? I suppose in that case, it's a very like fellow centric view of things, sadly. Yeah, so I was never clear on that. Dave, you're a cougar to me is all I want to say. It sounds like a song. want to take one more call before we go to go. Oh, man, okay, okay. Zero question. By the way, people, I just want you to know. It's fine because I'm not here on Monday, so you can go through all them. I mean, Tuesday. Nastasia's birthday is next week. So you can send your happy birthday wishes to Nastasia Lopez, who will be chilling in Rome on the Spanish steps. you know, hopefully violently ill. Okay, not really. I'm really, I'm just messing with you. I'm drinking white Zimfandel, enjoying herself. Imagine go to Rome, be like, you got any white zin over here? Come on. You know what I mean? Like, imagine? That'd be amazing. Like, yeah, enough with enough with the smash star. wine shame her for what she loves. I want my smashed artichokes, but I want whites in with them. You know what I mean? You like the smashed artichokes? What is that stuff called? Cart trophy what? Car trophy, like a Udia? Well, it is it is a Jewish... I mean, yeah, all those things are, but like, doesn't it have like another name or no? that was the Roman name for it. You're gonna be pounding the salty Boca over there? Do you like you don't like salty Boca? You don't like salty Boca? What the hell? Collar, you're on the air. I'm so angry at Nastasia for not liking salting Boca, that it's hard for me to concentrate, but go ahead. Salting broke is delicious. How do you not like sage, prosciutto, veal, where you lightly flour it and then like saute that mother in butter? I've ever had a good one. Call her, you're on the air. Do we lose your color? Hello, am I in the air? Yes. Hello, Carl. I have a three-part question. Go ahead. First, I should say first time, long time. But my 1st question is, do you guys have a favorite film in the alien series? My 2nd question is, do you guys have a favorite comedic Arnold Schwarzenegger film? And my 3rd part is Peter. Would you mind if I have an employee of yours went home at around 2 today? No, no, I know I know you Peter at it about that hour. So no, that's totally cool. In terms of the... What's he gonna do? Fire you? My new sign off for emails is you'll never work for this magazine again. That's so awesome. I've never personally seen an alien movie, so I can't. I was, I don't know. I lived a shelter because I don't have an excuse. What? There was a new subway ad. They keep making them, though, right? The original has both, the, the guy playing
+
+[51:24] Mumbledy Peg with the, with the, uh, with the knife on the table. No, the aliens. Yeah. No, that's the 1st one. That's alien. No, Lance Hendrickson is an Aliens, the 2nd one. Wow. Because it's Bill fucking, sorry. Oh, family show. I like the Game over, man. Yeah, I like game old, man. That's alien. They're playing the mumblebee pig. That's the best one. aliens. The worst is alien versus predator. That doesn't even count. No, it stops after Alien 3. Okay. And comedic Arnold Schwarzenegger. Twins? Okay, so is are you a twins person or like a kindergarten cop kind of a person? I've never seen... kindergarten comedy. And this is why your magazine is closing. have you seen what about the one where he's pregnant? That's the only one I haven't seen. I haven't seen the one when he's pregnant. I think it's called look who's pregnant now or something like this. I swear to God this movie happened. It's called Junior, according to our communications director. Nice. Yeah, I have not seen it. But now when you say junior, I'm really glad I didn't know about that during the pregnancy of my Jewish children. I have the line. What's the Beastie Boy song where at the end he goes, Junior? You know that time? It's on, uh, I think it's on ill communication. Anyways. Um, I would have to go with twins is probably the best. Twins is probably the best. Kindergarten Cop has a lot of good lines in it, but probably twins. And it's a heartwarming family show. Like this show. Everything with Danny DeVito is a heartwarming family show. I like his. I emulate his, uh, the way he parents from Matilda. That's my parenting style is Danny DeVito from Matilda. Have you ever tried his lemon cello? I have not, have you? He has his own... I'm not a huge... a huge lemon cello guy. There are no huge lemon cello guys. except for Danny DeVito. How is his lemon cello? I haven't had it. Compared to like Pellini's. Or compared to like Cabo Wabo. We should have a celebrity liquor tasting here. I think we did. Okay, we did celebrity. Well, we did celebrity wine. We did not do celebrity liquor here. We could get Soderberg. We could get Soderberg. I've ever been in Heritage Radio. Let's not talk about that. We could get the same crew back, pussy Peter. Doesn't Santana have a tequila? I hope so. If you were Santana, wouldn't you have a tequila? Oh, absolutely. Cheech has a tequila. a mezcal, actually. is a very smart man. by the way. Cheech very smart man. Ooh, we could drink crystal skull. Dan Ackroyd? beverage. No? No? Wow, Dave. Harsh. Hating on Dan Ackroyd or on the Crystal Stole? Or on Herkimer Diamonds, a.k.a. Quartz. Maybe a little bit of all three. I could use a couple more like Glasgow on top my bookcase. Everybody could. You know what I looked about this taste? All right, they're going to kick me off. I answered no questions. So please send in no new questions because I have all the questions. No, I have... Grand opening grand closing. I have a bunch of questions to answer next week. So we'll deal with all that next week. No new questions because we did all callers. I've enjoyed having you on, Peter. enjoyed being have-on. If any of you want the celebrity liquor thing, I'm sure we can make that happen, but you have to, like, tweet on in or tell Nastasia that you really wanted to
+
+[54:38] have happen because... She's the one who gets things done around here when she's not hanging out in Rome drinking white
+
+[54:42] Zen. She's the only person. Why are you checking luggage to Rome? You're only bringing like 3 changes, you know, one change of clothes? I know, Nastasia. She's like, all the whites in. Had to check it. liquid. But, Dave, do I have to read this midroll on the way out? No, didn't you read that already? No, I read the pre-roll. Oh, dude. Yeah, read the mineral. All right. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. JD, Chris, and modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[55:17] Professional chef. By the way, I need to learn to circular breathe when I'm doing bagpipes. Did you know that? You got to like circular breeze sometimes. Maybe you don't. You also do that when you're playing like clarinet. Bass recorders. You're going to be the Ornette Coleman of bagpipes. Yeah, i.e. dead? Wow. Harsh, Dave. Keep reading. All right. Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiasts. No matter what your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere
+
+[55:47] else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernestpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks, and don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools.
+
+[56:12] And yes, they called you a culinary tool anastasia. Thanks, guys, cooking issues.
+
+[56:30] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like. Tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emergent circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:27] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:39] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking. You just coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from like, you know, around 12 or so to about one o'clock, uh, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Oh, God, as usual, David in the booth, we do not have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, because she might be in the middle of the air right now over the Atlantic Ocean or maybe somewhere over Europe.
+
+[1:07] She was in Rome for her birthday. She's on her way back? I think, either today or tomorrow or something like that. So, in her stead, we have Don Lee, the, I decided maybe I should stop calling you since, like, we work together a lot. Maybe I should stop calling you evil in public. And I'm just going to go to Puppet Master. It could be evil. What do you prefer? Evil cocktail overlord or cocktail public? The true evil is convincing you that it's not evil. Right. That's what, now, when you were in, let's say you're in Star Wars. And the emperor is, by the way, calling your questions to 718-497-2128 at 718-497-2128. Do you really think that, like, Luke, Andor Anakin didn't think that that stuff was evil, what the emperor said? That the thing. It doesn't work about that movie. When he's like, you know, strike me down. I mean, obviously you're not supposed to. He's been treated the entire time, you know, told not to do that. Yeah, it looks from like these backwaters, you know, and so is Anakin. So it's not like they grew up with like movies and novels, so... Okay, here's where we're going to get like a hate down from people, but like, you ever read the Old Testament? Yeah. See, read the Old Testament. you're like, hello? Like you were there, like the people who were on the initial trek out of Egypt,
+
+[2:21] right? Right, right. Like, let's say you see the Red Sea part. You're walking on dry freaking land, right? Could be moist. moist. Right, but you're not sinking in. Right, right. You're walking across it, and then it closes up behind you and swallows your enemies. Well, all the plagues before. Right, all that. why would you make a golden calf is your question? That's right. Right. Makes no sense. Right. The guy that saved you says, you know, wait here, chill. Chill. I'm going to go get some stuff. And it's like, no, golden calf immediately. Right, but it's the same thing as Star Wars. So, yeah. I mean, it's the same, it's very similar idea. It seems unbelievable from the outside, but it must be that when you're living in that time. Well, and if you get into the, like, now defunct expanded universe, the emperor was a huge space racist. Wait, well, 1st of all, 1st of all, expanded university. Yeah he was. And what do you mean now defunct? The universe imploded? When Disney took over Lucas, they kind of said, okay, everything that's in the expanded universe, not
+
+[3:19] canon anymore because they're going to make... How did they get to choose that? Oh, hold a second, hold a second. $100000000 for it. So what? If I pay a 100000000 dollars, like I can't erase the crusades. Yeah, but this isn't the crusades. fiction. Well, it is, and it isn't. I mean, like, you know, I'm sure some of the people that already worked on it are dead. Now their works erased. Yeah. Well, it's not part of the canon. It's part of this legacy thing. So, you know, Han and Leia no longer have twins who have the forest, the Grand Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist. who doesn't have the force anymore? Well, they don't have kids anymore. Well, they've got Kylo Ren. Spoilers, if you haven't seen the... This is all too confusing, Don. Like, why can't they just like leave well enough alone? Well, you know, because it's Disney. It's the mouse. And he, you know, in the same way that the mouse will live forever in the copyrights and we'll always be putting out mouse products. Now Star Wars is going to be there forever. you know, for the next, for the rest of eternity, There's going to be a new Star Wars property every year. And the movies are like top tier cannon, like all the books that's just kind of like secondary. Right, no. First of all, let's straighten this all out people. Cannon is cannon. There is no tier within the cannon. It's all cannon. Well, no, there's not. No, there's there's the trilogy series. No, there's these stories of the side story. no one's like, no one's like, you know what? Deuteronomy, we're going to throw that crap away, but Genesis, we're going to keep. Isn't that called the New Testament? We'll keep that stuff. Not really. We don't keep that. It doesn't count anymore. No, no, there is Bible analogies. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's stuff in the New Testament that supersedes some of the old stuff. Right. That's different. So they're saying like, you know, all that old stuff, that actually didn't happen. That was a fever dream. No one said that. No one said Disney. The New Testament, that never happened. Yeah, but Disney's saying that, you know, that was a thing. you know, people were spinning their yarns, but now this is the real thing. Anyway, again, this is not, obviously, we're not supposed to be talking about religion, and I guess not Star Wars either, and we're not supposed to be talking about... Which is religion for some. It's true. Recognize religion. Right. This is not a political show. Not a religion show and not
+
+[5:16] a, it's a family friendly show. in general. Disney, family friendly. They are very friendly friendly. I will not say anything negative against the Disney corporation other than I think it's ridiculous
+
+[5:26] to, like, add and array stuff out of a... Yeah. So let me, Dave, you want me to get the pre-roll out of the way, actually somewhat pre? Yeah, yeah, bang it out. Today, you know, the thing is, Dave, I still, did you look into this? were brought to by like two, two people. You can't be brought to by 2 separate people. You can edit the copy on the fly if you want. Well, they brought you halfway each. Is this like one of those footsteps in the sand freaking things? Today's program is brought to you by modernist pantry. providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes,
+
+[6:01] tips and tricks, visit modernistpantry.com. And better yet, visit blog.modernistpantry.com. That was beautiful. Thank you. So, Don, you brought some interesting snacks here. What do you got here? Remember, no mouth noises on air. No mouth noises. I got a couple of weird snacks from Sophie's dad. And the 1st is a sweet butter flavored fried oyster snacks that they suggest you use instead of bacon bits on your
+
+[6:26] salads. can believe that. I can believe that. And this is from, where is this from? This is a product of Korea. All right. We'll try that. We'll rip that open. We'll eat some during the break. What' the other one? The other one is some kind of like fried all crunchy olive? It's a sour cream and onion flavor. I don't know where that's from. And it's named Sky? Yellos? Yeah. Is that does that mean sky? I don't know. Made by Dumette. Possibly Dumet. All right, we'll try those in a minute. Meanwhile, let's get us some questions. call Oh yeah, we got a call or call or you're on the air. Hi, Dave, this is Ron from New York. you hear me? Yeah. Hey, so I have a quick question followed by another follow-up question. Uh, one is, I have a friend who's, um, making some fresh sausage and serving
+
+[7:16] it outdoors, so we want to car cook it in a combi oven. he's guided doesn't have an emergency circulator or anything like that. Wait, wait, wait. back up. You have a friend who owns a combi oven and not an immersion circulator? Don't ask, yeah. Yeah, he was convinced that he needed a coffee oven. Does this person still have a mother? Is this person's mother still alive? Get her to slap him. How do you not have a circulator and you own a combi oven? That's the, that might be the... I'm going to answer your question in a sec, but that might be the most ridiculous thing. I've heard, and I'm going to make up a number here, the past 22 days. will let him know that. Yeah, okay. You know what? You know what circulators cost now? Like nothing. They're like potato chips. They're like $150 and he's got a combi oven. You got some rich taste of potato chips. The electricity, Bill, even on a gas oven. The electricity bill in a combi oven. like one of those nice ones. Yeah, it's going to far exceed. I mean, okay, whatever. Go ahead. Go ahead. question. So anyway, he's got a 1st sauce. We have fresh sausage that we want to park in the combi oven. I just wanted to. assuming 100% steam. Yes. I just want to know time and temperature. What's the... What size sausages? How does the steam work in a
+
+[8:33] comedy of them when it's set under 212? So have you read the, have you read Modernist Cuisine actually has a good explanation of this? Um, so, and I guess they don't do uh, look inside, but uh, if you have access to monitors cuisine, I recommend you go look at it. But basically what they do is it kind of... I'm going to take this question off to the air. I got to run. Okay, all right. Thank you so much. I no problem. So I'll I'll give you the answer. So the combi ovens, uh, what they do is they inject steam into the oven and
+
+[9:07] then, uh, like that kind of, it cancels out over the, over the period. So the temperature actually kind of fluctuates a bit. The steam is always being created above the temperature of boiling
+
+[9:18] water, and then when it goes into the oven, They just don't inject enough of it to raise the temperature of the oven high enough and they have a giant fan and they vent out anything that they're not using to keep the, that's one of the reasons
+
+[9:31] they're such monsters on electricity. And one of the reasons why something like a CVAP
+
+[9:36] oven, while it doesn't have nearly the power that a combi oven has takes much less electricity to run because they're just maintaining it by using the Louisiana method of
+
+[9:48] existing, which is just constantly be soaked in water all of the time, right? So like in Louisiana, like, you know, that's it. It's like 100% humidity, you live in, you know, you live in a Delta. That's it. You got 100% humidity. That's what you got. And so in a CVAP oven. If you know, if you're below, uh, if you're below, um, The, uh, if you're, you know, if you're below boiling, they just heat the water up to the same temperature as the oven
+
+[10:16] cavity and then that's it. You're in 100% humidity situation. Now, you're not getting huge energy transfer over. It's not like, it's nowhere near the energy transfer that you're going to get out of a, um, out of
+
+[10:27] an immersion circulator, which is a measly $150 investment. Now, the good news about a combi oven, a real combi oven is they do have very good energy transfer at the expense of accuracy, especially in the lower registers.
+
+[10:41] Now, when you have a combi oven that's going to have maybe 10 degrees, 15 degrees of swing over. I forget what it is. I wish I'd know this was going to get called in because I would have just looked it up, a modernist
+
+[10:52] cuisine, because they, you know, they have all the stats there, but it's a good big swing, and what you're looking for in a combi oven is what I would like to call
+
+[11:02] the integral of the number. So the, if you were to integrate the temperature swing over time, It would come out to be relatively even. And so then the question is, how thick of a food item do you need in there before it basically smooths out to being an even
+
+[11:19] temperature? And so whether or not that makes a big difference in your sausage is highly dependent on how thick your sausage is. That sounded bad. That sounded bad. I was gonna say something, but it's a family show. Family show. Family show. That sounded terrible. The length of your sausage doesn't make any difference in this case. That's really the growth. It's really the girth of the sausage that makes a difference. again, family show. Wow. The good news about sausages is that there are sausages where the temperature you cooked them
+
+[11:50] to is important. For instance, let's say that you're an enemy of quality and you craft a low fat sausage. Right. But let's say you craft a low fat sausage. Low fat sausage, if you overcook a low fat sausage, it's like an overcooked hamburger. It's garbage. You know what I mean? It's like it's going to be garbage. Which is why you should never do that. But you can do that if you, um, if you're using like low temperature cooking with kind of just a finish off. But in general, for me, like doing a low temperature cook on a sausage is just making sure they're all done through without having them cook
+
+[12:26] forever and it lets you do a real fast finish and they tend not to split as much. You tend not to explode your casings as much. So I would do, um, I typically do 140 Fahrenheit, which is 60 Celsius, and, you know, you know, depending on how thick the sausage is, you can, uh, you know, I usually put them in like an hour before I'm gonna, uh, use them, and then you, they can just ride there for as long as you want, and then you can, you know, if you want to, if you think they're riding a long time, and you think you're getting texture changes, which you probably won't, because, remember, ground anyway, I would just, you know, you could turn it down a couple of notches
+
+[13:02] to like, you know, one. 135, which is, you know, 57, somewhere like that and let it ride. Now, some people are going to think it's too pink on the inside at 140, but if you're actually riding it at 140, which is 60
+
+[13:14] Celsius and then you sear them off on a grill, then everyone's going to love them. Yeah, he said he was going to park hook them, finish them later. Yeah. So I would do that. I mean, it's enough of a cook. And then, so if you're going to cook them, par cook them, and then chill them all the way down, and then, uh, and then like fry them
+
+[13:31] from, from cold, you could go a degree or too higher, but I really don't think you need
+
+[13:37] to. I don't I like my sausage at 140 at 60. So, you know, I would test one and see whether you like it like that. It's it's gonna have shades of the pinkness will still be in the center when you roll it off and fry it, but I'm okay with that.
+
+[13:52] And again, it depends. Let's say you're doing those little thin Ligurian sausages. They take like like no time. And so, you know, those, you know, uh, even just a finish off is going to probably
+
+[14:02] deepink the the inside, but if you're doing like, you know, Kilbas is already cooked, but if you're doing something with that form factor, like a large Italian
+
+[14:09] sausage. What you should never do with a sausage is try to grill it from raw. That's a huge enemy of quality move. I mean, like, you know, the way we were always taught to do it was sausage in
+
+[14:21] the pan, water, cover, water evaporates. You know, but the problem there is, is that you're never actually gauging when it's
+
+[14:28] done because you don't know exactly how long the water's going to take to evaporate, and then it spits and puts that scorching, disgusting nastiness on the bottom of your pan.
+
+[14:36] You're really better off. Immersion circulator, either in oil, like oil, like oil poaching sausage is great.
+
+[14:43] Beer poaching works, but the problem is, is that the 1st, like, the 1st, like, 20 or 30
+
+[14:48] sausage is, it doesn't have to be beer, you know what I mean? Like the 1st 20 or 30 sausages taste different from the next 20,
+
+[14:55] 3000, 200 sausages. That's why you need the sausage brand Solera, New York City, you know, streetcard style. Streetcard style, which you know I've I've had. I bought it and I drank it years and years ago because I forget who it was. I think it was time out in New York. Like, they didn't have, like, they asked me about it. I was like, have you, what, did you just go taste it? and they're like, no. They're like, did you go check the temperature? They're like, no. They're like, that's why we're calling you. So I literally just went downstairs. I said, here's $5. Can I have a Styrofoam cup full of your hot dog water? The guy was like, okay. And then I shoved my thermometer in it, registered the temperature and took a sip. So easy. It's the easiest test in the world to run. This is something I will say to people. Certain tests are just easier to run than to ask someone how to do it, especially if you live in New York and the hot dog
+
+[15:41] car is downstairs. Hot dog water, delicious, tastes exactly like a hot dog. Why hasn't anyone made that ramen yet? I don't know. That sounds like an Ivan ramen question. But like, I mean, it's good. It tastes like hot dog. Right. So, like, everyone who gets all bent about, like, you know, leeching flavor out of
+
+[16:01] things, and every, you ever notice people get super bent about, like, leeching flavor out of things, there's no flavor being
+
+[16:06] leeched out of a hot dog. Now, the texture is going to be the texture of a dog that has been in water, but an emulsified sausage, and I won't get into the
+
+[16:15] particulars just because then Don and I will have to find E-Tramer, one of you and kill you because we have, you know, we have stuff in the works. But the, um, the, you know, the texture of an emulsified sausage, it already has water in it
+
+[16:28] anyway. And so there's no, I mean, extra water, excess water in it
+
+[16:32] anyway because it's a batter, you know what I mean? That's been emulsified. So there's no reason. Not to poach them. You know what I mean? Assuming that the flavor, the liquid that you have it in is fully flavored. Right. Does a long winded, whatever. Dave, you removed our shot. Oh, no, he turned our shot clock so that the the 2 strange folks that are eating pizza outside can see what the the
+
+[16:55] radio type. I have it on mine. I have it on my phone. All right. We have a we have a ramen question. Let me see, let's take him into order. We haven't had done any questions. We have any more callers? Yeah, we do, actually. All right, call her. on the air. Hey, Dave, I just got a quick comment, actually. I just wanted to comment that the quality of the show, the last couple episodes has been fantastic. I've listened to, you know, all 100 or 200 episodes. I mean, really sorry. Uh, but uh, but the guests recently have been doing a great job of challenging you and providing their
+
+[17:29] own uh, perspective. It's been hysterically funny. So I just wanted to thank you for that. And I wanted to make a quick comment that, um, you know, you often say it's a family show and I think you've made that comment just now. You know, if you're talking about, like, how to use
+
+[17:48] methocellules F50 and all the different techniques. I don't know that this is really a family show anymore, and I'd actually appreciate a few more F-bombs and swearing in the show.
+
+[17:59] So that's just my perspective. Thanks for the great show. All right, point taken, but I will say this. A number of years ago. Uh, maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I got, um, I got a, a question
+
+[18:12] in, and it, you know, it was a question from, uh, you know, the parent of
+
+[18:18] a like 10 year old who for some reason listened to the show. Who knows why this happened? Bad parenting. Bad parenting. No, but yeah, but who knows why this happens? And then I was like, oh, I don't want to, you know, because I have kids, so I don't want to, if I'm going to do something that is, you know, ear muff, let
+
+[18:36] them, you know, let people let people know. But, you know, any of those that know me in the real life, right? Uh, Don. I have a mouth on me. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, uh, uh, and, you know, I think Don was on, we were talking about this before in reference to, to bars and to, you know, kind of how
+
+[18:56] to, how to treat your fellow employees in a professional situation, in kitchen professional
+
+[19:01] situation. And I don't want the salty nature of the business to change because then I would have no place in it,
+
+[19:10] right? I mean, like, so I'm a big user and lover. In fact, my wife gets very angry because my kids are now old enough that I started to pepper the salt into my daily conversation with the
+
+[19:23] kids, and she's like all mad about it, but, you know, I consider a good, rapid fire, ever
+
+[19:33] changing burbling of curse words to be the hallmark of a smart person.
+
+[19:38] You know what I mean? I think that's right. And I think that that one 10 year old's uh, experience is is sort of uh, affecting the enjoyment for all of us adults. Well, you know, you got you have the code switch, though. Sometimes you're in front of the, you know, in front of house. You got to talk to guests. dial it back. Then when you go back to the back of the house, you know, you let loose. As I get older, I think I might have mentioned this on the air, but as I get older, certain things,
+
+[20:04] like, I've, like, lost. I've lost my control, not like yelling at people, but lost my control like
+
+[20:11] in front of customers like a couple of times. Like, you know, you know, and act like they're not a customer, but you don't want to do that. You really don't want to do that. You want to try to stay as, you know, 2 zones as possible. But I will tell you this. We are thinking of doing another Nastasia and I are thinking of doing another uh, different radio program, like unrelated to cooking issues where we basically get to do whatever we want.
+
+[20:34] So the theory of it, see whether you guys like this, the theory of it, and I should get to some regular question questions, but like the theory of it is that when you go to dinner,
+
+[20:42] do we already talk about this on air, Dave, or not? No, there's news to me. All right. So don't worry, Dave. Not right away, but the... No, we're doing this radio show, but we're going to do it on the network. Oh, okay. And, uh, but not related. So Don, what do you not do at dinner? What do you not talk about at dinner? Politics, religion. Right. So what I want to do, and I have ruined so many dinners in my life. Like so many, like, dinners. Yeah, just obliterated because someone says something and I'm like, what? And then that's it. You know what I mean? What? And that's it. And so what we want to do, Nastasia and I, Nastasia and I have these arguments constantly off air too, like half of our time spent arguing with each other,
+
+[21:25] because believe it or not, Nastasia and I are like very different. Like, I mean, I guess you can believe that. Yeah, anyway, um, it extends beyond her dislike of biscuits. But the coffee. She's not that she doesn't like coffee, it says she... She's ambivalent. It's not that she's ambivalent. She specifically buys crap coffee to make me feel like I'm some sort
+
+[21:48] of, you know, fancy pants. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. She, she would rather drink crappy coffee. She's one of those people who incorrectly believes it's more American to drink crap coffee. And to me, like, that's everything I hate yet. Like, well, that's I hate that. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's it's bad to be snobby about coffee. It's bad to like look down on what somebody else likes. That's bad inherently. Yeah, but she would also salt the earth just to make fun of you. That's right. Right. And she also enjoys as, you know, to make it back into a family show. yucking my yum. She likes to yuck my yum. Anyway, I'm sidetracking you. Anyway, so anyway, we want to do a show, and I'm also like, I think all of us, everyone in the country, probably, if they, if they have half a
+
+[22:34] brain, is sick of the echo chamber, where we're all only hanging out with people that we agree with. That's why family dinners are so interesting because you don't pick your family. They just show up and they have different views from you, you know,
+
+[22:45] you, a lot of the time that, you know, than you do. And so we want to have people in where we talk about food, ostensibly, but then like a bad dinner conversation, it spirals off into religion and politics.
+
+[22:55] And hopefully we get a good group of people together that disagree, and then we just kind of go off on it. Well, you got a really good nostalgia to be unfiltered though, because she's so buttoned up on this show. Well, if we get someone else who has who's slightly crazier than her on X, Y, or C view, then she will be like, yeah, Dave, yeah. And then I'll go, like, ballistic, bananas. You know what I mean? But anyway, so we're... I would definitely watch her listen to that show and volunteer to be that 3rd person.
+
+[23:24] Nice. All right. Remember, we need a good mix. Always needs to be people that we disagree with. you know, on the air. Anyway, so keep an eye out for it. We're working on it. All right. Thanks for the great shows, Dave. All right, thank you. All right. So Darren wrote in, and I can't remember, Dave, whether we answered any of his questions. Tell me if there's a caller. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep doing questions. There is another call, yeah. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hi Dave, how are you? Doing all right? I listen to that show as well. Good, thanks. Um, hey, I want to ask you, I've been using, um, just kind of like the crappy Britta filter for a while now. Um, mostly uh, trying to get like chlorine out of the water for um, home brewing. Um, and I want to try and like look into, like installing something in the sink. And I'm just kind of curious if you have any recommendations or like what should I be looking for in a system and like how crazy do I need to get with it, I think. Good question. Apartment or house? Uh, apartment. Okay, you you own it or you don't own it? Do not own it. Okay. Do you, okay, you're, what I'm going to tell you to do is not going to damage no one's going to know. Let me ask you this. When you look under your sink, do you see the probably half inch copper pipe coming
+
+[24:32] out or is the what's called an angle stop, which is the thing that shuts the water supply, the cold water supply off to your sink, is
+
+[24:40] it in the wall directly or can you see the half inch copper? No, you can see it. Oh, ha. Okay. Do you know how to use a torch? Uh no. Okay. You might need to hire a plumber or just find anyone who knows how to use a torch. The only danger involved here is that you are that you could burn your apartment down. If you know how to use a torch and you get the shielding, it's like super easy. Here's what most people are gonna do. They're going to go to the big, their local big box store, like a Lowe's or a Home Depot, and you're going to buy, uh, like a, the GE is the brand I use, water filter, and they come, they're basically plastic, um, canisters that
+
+[25:22] screw together, and they have an O-ring, and inside of it is a kind of a, a, you know, a, a circular, a cylindrical filter. And you only need the one that does odor, which is the lowest,
+
+[25:34] the, the, assuming, where, where do you live? Sorry? What city are you in? New York. Okay, your water tastes great other than the chlorine. You don't need to filter out, probably, lead, crypto, whatever they're filtering out. You need just a, like, chlorine odor filter. And the reason you don't want to get a, what they would call higher quality filter is you want the least restrictive filter that does what you need
+
+[25:58] because, um, you're gonna, your flow is gonna go lower and lower and lower over time. And if you're going to be doing anything with it, You want as high a flow as possible. But the classic mistake that everybody makes, and I'm looking at you, whoever was the handyman at
+
+[26:12] Sambar when we tried to install our filter the 1st time at Booker Index. Um, What they tend to do is just unscrew
+
+[26:19] the, um, the connector between the angle stop that I was telling you about and the cold water
+
+[26:24] supply and they screw a T on. The problem is, is that your angle stop is extremely restrictive compared to the half inch pipe.
+
+[26:31] And so if someone tries to use filtered water, uh, you, you want as much, because the filter drops the pressure so much, you want as much
+
+[26:40] input pressure and cross-section area into that filter as possible. So what long story, you're going to want someone to put a copper tea into your line before the angle stop,
+
+[26:53] right? install a full port. I'm going to say this one more time, a full port. Actually, you can get one of these things with its own stop
+
+[27:03] rod, but install a full port ball valve that's the same diameter as your thing. So you can shut the system off if you need, and tee it into a, you know, one of those GE. You don't need a whole house, but the whole house filters last a lot longer, so you get the whole house one because I
+
+[27:19] think what, Don, it's an extra like 15 bucks or something like that. Maybe. You'll save so much more money on the filters. Yeah, and time and hassle. And then, you just run it out of that to, like, another tap that you can put into your sink. And if you don't want to put it in the sink, you don't need to. You can just have a tap underneath. Just make sure you can shut it off because things like, you don't want to pressurize something crappy, like a picnic
+
+[27:41] tap as they're called, because if you're a beer person, you know what I'm talking about, because they could fail at any minute. And when you have something connected to city water that could fail at any minute, you have failed. You know what I mean? So, uh, I would get uh, an actual like line that you can turn off and on. But that's 100% the way to go. And in fact, if you get a good enough filter, You can just have that be the cold water supply for your, um, for your
+
+[28:06] sink and you're going to go through filters a lot longer, but all your water was tastes good out of the cold, out of the cold water tap. The one thing, like I say, I would not, if I were you, attempt to run a
+
+[28:16] filter like off of the normal angle stop that is there. It's just gonna be a heartache for you. You can do it. It'll last for a couple months and your water through that thing was going to be slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. But then it's like a $50 problem. If you have to hire a plumber, now it's 200 more dollars, right? So now you're a $250 problem unless you have a buddy who can come just sweat the stuff together because we're really honestly talking about $15, $20 worth of copper here, maybe.
+
+[28:42] Um, and you know, a lifetime. I've done it in every single apartment I've been in for the past 20 years. You know what I mean? Because that's just like, I can't live with that. I can't live with chlorine taste in my, in my water, especially in my seltzer, and, uh, yeah. Right. awesome. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Oh, one more thing. You can get a clear one and you can get the not clear one and when you're buying the GE water filters. Here's the main problem, the GE water filters have. They're made out of plastic. So if you cross thread anything, they become a nightmare and they leak later. And so you want to make sure when you're putting the fittings into the water filters, not to
+
+[29:21] cross-stread anything and to be relatively gentle with the plastic so that it doesn't crack and you're going to need to be able to get the thing off. So make sure that you have good access to it to get to remove the
+
+[29:32] bottom to get it off because that becomes a hassle. And please do follow their instructions to bleed all the air out of it before you're using it or, you know, comedy ensues. Alright. No problem. I got a topic for you for when you get your new show with Nastasia. You got to get someone to come in and talk about chemtrails and how you going to filter out chemtrails in your water. What's a chem trail? You know, the airplane, like the condensation? Oh, yeah, yeah. People who think that that's the government, like, you know, spraying chemicals. It's not Oh, Zing. All right, so should we go to a break and then come back with some questions? Yeah, let's do that. All right, cool. Right back.
+
+[30:17] This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for
+
+[30:25] sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, fibrant purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
+
+[30:55] get you cooking faster, and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
+
+[30:59] Browse chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat, and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[31:14] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-LE. And we are back. So during the break, Don and I tried the fried oysters that we told you about. And the crunchy olives made by the Cielo Corporation, and here's my feedback. Don hated the fried oysters. I didn't hate it. I just didn't think it was good. Well, so here's what I, uh, wait, you grew up in, in, do they have crispy clam scrips in LA? Not really. Okay, so if you grew up on the East Coast, you grew up with crispy clam strips. You know who invented the crispy clam strip for Hojos? No idea. Jacques Pepin. Swear to God. Jacques Pepin went from being Charles de Gaulle's being his personal chef. took a job being the head chef of, as Jacques Pepin calls it
+
+[32:07] Lojo, Hojo's. And one of his things, it is claimed, is
+
+[32:13] the Howard Johnson's crispy clam strip. That's crazy. Dave, you like some crispy clam strips, am I right? Absolutely. East Coast. Yeah. So anyway, so these fried oysters taste like, imagine if you had crispy clam strips. You bought them in the East Coast. You flew to Phoenix, let's say that's where you lived, and you left them out on a counter in 120 degree heat and no humidity for like a
+
+[32:38] day, and then you looked at them and you said, I'm going to try that. That's what it tastes like. No bueno. Why do you want that? You want fresh? Well, you say it's an accurate description? Yeah. They're kind of growing on me. I remember, let's rewind a little bit. I'm the guy that when I worked at Domino's Pizza in college. Uh, as a driver. ate a pound of raw bacon because I was bored, and when they said, why do you do that? I said, I thought it was cooked, I just thought it was bad quality. So that's me. Yeah. Anyway. And what do you think about the crunchy olives? Um, they were crunchy. The inside was kind of mushy. That was interesting. Well, it's a dried olive, so I don't know. What kind of raisin-y texture? Yeah, all right. I hear we have a here we have another caller. Call her, you're on the air. Hey, Dave. I just got some leakproof, reusable storage bags, and it says 100% PEVA, and it says they're BTA free. I was just wondering, uh, the usability for sous vide. P says, it's not P-E-T-E. What's PE? Oh, like PETA? Yeah. P-E-V-A. Yeah. Oh, EE. For Googling was a bunch of stuff about shower curtains, though. P-E-V-A. I don't know if I know that, that, um, I don't know. Hey, Don, Google up that resin real quick. But, um, this is designed for food, right? Yeah, food storage. I just don't know if, you know, Polyethylene, vinyl, acid, water bath. I'm sure I've looked this up before, but I just don't know much about, I don't know anything about that resin off the top of my head. I, it, like, for some reason, it's like out of my head. I have no PVDE. Anyway, here's here's my general theory on on these things on plastics. In general, there are certain plastics that, um,
+
+[34:33] when they degrade might make things that are, I mean, what most people worry about are plastic, plasticizers and endocrine disruptors. So things like thalates, things like BPA, which is why, you know, in general, a lot of people in cooking applications try to avoid PVC. Um, and some people avoid um, polycarbonate that's going to go through the dishwasher because when it goes to dishwasher and when it's damaged, apparently you can get, um, uh, BPA from it because that's, you know, one of the monomers, I believe, that polycarbonate is made out
+
+[35:05] of. Although, again, you're, you're, it's been, what happens is every couple of years, someone
+
+[35:09] asked me, and I have to re-up my knowledge on it, and that's when I know more about it. So, um, so 2 classes of things, right? And so the plasticizers are in things, the reason you want to go with PVC is the plasticizers that people are usually worried
+
+[35:23] about. So when you're using PVC for food applications, I usually buy what's called
+
+[35:27] Tigon, which is a very high purity, you know, apparently plastic, then it's supposed to be plasticizer, uh,
+
+[35:32] leash free product. Um, In general, you want to stay, you know, with home stuff with things that are like known to be incredibly
+
+[35:42] neutral, like, um, polyethylene. The problem and that's why, you know, polyethylene wrap is so good, but polyethylene is very bad at high temperatures. It loses its structural integrity. So if this thing is meant for food storage, it could be that, so for instance, a lot of the Ziploc food storage
+
+[36:00] bags versus their freezer bags is a thickness issue. So it's more of an oxygen permeability issue. And one of the reasons that those things aren't cooking bags is because they don't have another layer of something that's tougher, like a nylon that can
+
+[36:14] withstand like, you know, a higher temperature. And so a lot of times when someone says storage, It's because they know that the service temperature of the of the plastic is lower than the average cooking temperature because no one is anticipating, um,
+
+[36:32] no one's anticipating, you know, you low temperature cooking. There's not anticipating it. And that was the case with Ziploc bags. And so the Ziploc bag, they would say you couldn't cook in it because they assume you're going to do boiling bag in it, and that really is kind of above the usable service temperature of a
+
+[36:48] Ziploc bag. And but I got the guys at Johnson to, you know, say that, you know, low temperature was
+
+[36:53] okay. What do you find on the line, Don? Very little information. It's a lot of housewives talking about whether it's safe for their kids in lunchboxes, but as the caller says, it's also a lot of, you know, a shower curtain stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so I tend not to, I don't, answer is, I don't know. I know that there's someone right now making, specifically, because I saw it on, like, Jewel, like, got tweeted out to me or something like
+
+[37:15] that, or somebody tweeted out. Someone's making some reusable. I don't know if they're silicone. Let me ask you this, though. Isn't reusing the bag just like super gross? I mean, yeah, but I just hate throwing away perfect bags for every cook. I just feel like I'm, you know, like a dirty person. No, I'm with you, but like, in other words, like, what does your dishwasher look like and or your sink? Like, see? So like, um, if you've ever like, pastry bags, right? So pastry bags are disgusting to wash out. Everyone hates washing out pastry bags. And, you know, that's why you have those conical things to dry pastry bags. And that's why, you know, the truth is, is we
+
+[37:57] all put, like we all put stuff, we, you know, like at FCI, we're all using disposable plastic cooking bags. I mean, pastry bags, even if you're only using it as a liner because nobody wants to wash out those cloth bags. Everybody hates doing it. Um, and so like my, you know, my thing, my thing is, I'm just worried that, you know, people are going to be like, oh, this is such a
+
+[38:19] hassle and then they're just not going to want to cook that way because they know when they're done. You know, when they're pulling service, now you have to take the bag and you have all the juices and stuff. Now you got to upturn that bag in your sink, let it drain and wash it right
+
+[38:32] away so it doesn't get all stank duty, and then you got to like turn it inside out and let it air out in a place that's not stacked up or it's
+
+[38:40] going to get moldy. So I'd be interested in hearing as you use it over time. kind of how that kind of works out because I would like to have a non-throwing away method, um, you know, to do things. You're either the kind of parent that's going to use disposable diapers or cloth diapers. And if you're going to use cloth diapers, you just got to commit to it. And it's... Well, the cloth diaper thing. Now, again, I haven't researched this in a long time, but like, you know, a lot of people have debunked the cloth diaper because, you know, some people have argued, I don't know whether it's
+
+[39:07] true or false or where it comes down, that it's just as bad to run the washing machines as much as it is to
+
+[39:13] just get the disposable diaper. But that could be dependent on where you live, right? Like water is not in short supply here. Whereas in California, if you're running your washing machine all the time for disposable diet. I mean, for cloth diapers, could be problematic. Right. Yeah. So who knows? The answer is to that. But I'm very interested to hear people's feedback, especially as I'm writing this book. I should be researching this topic more. I've been spending more time on things like the crown roasted pork recipe that I'm working on. The last one I did was slightly overcooked. Slightly overcooked. Poor moisture management. Look, good moisture management on the crust, but not in the interior. Right. again, overall poor moisture management. I was kind of sad. It was so close to being right, but a crown roast is very difficult to get exactly
+
+[39:59] right because if you overcook it a little bit, it's rotten, especially with like, you know, like modern pork. I was so close to it being right though. That's why I got that heritage pork. Got to get the good stuff. Good stuff kids go for. All right. Anyway, please let me know what happens. All right. So, Dave, should I get some email questions here? Yeah, yeah, bang one out real quick. So, um, this one, I think we answered some of these, Darren wrote in. He asked what happened to Indie Jesus. I don't know. And Jack Insley if we can send an email to Jack Insley, ask him to, Maybe he can call in, you know, next week with the story of Indie Jesus and what happened. Nastasia, saw him on the street once, I think. Hey, what's up? This is Jack Insley. Yeah, that that Jackie. Jackie Molecules. Hey, yeah, yeah. Then my girlfriend has celiac disease. And now I love experimenting. I found that it doesn't mean much to replicate glutinous food, bringing something new to the table is far more exciting and meaningful. Do you have frameworks or methods that you guys like to use when working in the lab developer? I don't have a lab right now, but yeah, at home or whatever, developing new recipes. I'm talking inspirational variational creative tweaking, et cetera. So in general, what I like to do is I like to look at recipes that naturally don't have whatever X, Y, or Z thing is that, you know, you don't want to work
+
+[41:20] with and then work from there. So, like, I would look at, like, the panoply of naturally
+
+[41:26] gluten-free uh, food. So inherently you're like, okay, I'm going to go to like, I'm going to look at, at, um, cultures that have a corn-based staple, and I'm going to look at cultures that have a rice-based
+
+[41:38] staple, and if you do that, there's like a zillion, like a bazillion
+
+[41:44] things. So like, you know, I've spent a bunch of time over the last year working on Italy's and Italy's are gluten-free. And so, and the interesting thing about it is that they develop, there are different textures, 1st of all. There are different kinds of textures you can develop, but there are also, I know you said you didn't want to do this, but there are adjuncts that are added to things to make them
+
+[42:03] act, you know, hydrocollage, typically, you know, to make up for the fact that you don't have things like gluten, like witness masa, you know, which is, you know,
+
+[42:14] God's, you know, one of the proofs of God is masa. It's amazing. Niximalization in general. Or like I say, Italy's in India. But then, um, You know, I don't know. what do you think, Don? I mean, just the way of approaching it. You have 2 basic ways, right? Unless you're some genius that can create things in a vacuum. You're either going to take something that already exists, that has gluten, try to make it non-gluten, or you're going to find something that already doesn't have gluten and try to turn that into something that is similar to
+
+[42:42] something that is. Right, I mean, like, you know, the issue, obviously, and you deal with this every day, if, you know, if you have celiacs is like the secret gluten, like the gluten that's, you know, the secret gluten. There's like, uh, you know, why would you think that uh, Szechuan broadbean paste has gluten in it? But guess what it does. You know what I mean? Like, you know, right? I mean, that's like that's the kind of thing you have to kind of look out for. But, uh, I think any, I is going to sound bad. I love stealing ideas from other cultures because they've spent, you know, 100s and 100s of
+
+[43:16] years trying to figure out X, Y, and Z with whatever they have, right? So, someplace that didn't have a lot of glutenous, uh, you know, products with gluten in
+
+[43:26] it or doesn't have a barley base or a wheat-based, uh, culture. I mean, they're going to know how to make good stuff with their stuff. Right. A lot of the problem that I'm finding, though, is like with traditional Asian ingredients, especially the fermented stuff, traditionally, it shouldn't have gluten, but as the modern manufacturing process, they add
+
+[43:41] gluten. They add wheat because it's cheap. So usually if you live in a big enough city with an ethnic population, there's probably some grandmother that is making like miso or like, you know, Korean like
+
+[43:52] kochujang, like red pepper paste and not selling it in stores, but has like some local network, try to tap into that because then you can get some stuff that's homemade, even soy sauce that's
+
+[44:01] homemade, that doesn't have gluten. Right, but I think, you know, I think he's also just more worried about like on the creative. So in other words, there's 2 problems. There is ingredient sourcing, that's like the secret gluten in things, but then there is just kind of thinking
+
+[44:13] around, having, you know, gluten. And I think if you try to put yourself in the mindset of cultures that don't have it, you know, in general, then it becomes very easy because, you know, you're using a different palette, you're using, um, I'll give you
+
+[44:28] anything, I give you, but it doesn't mean you have to mimic the flavors, but you take like the structure.
+
+[44:33] Like, Don and I were talking, like, I have been fascinated for years. I have, like, you know, for a home,
+
+[44:39] probably the largest set I've ever seen of Tolso's. I have like 10 of them. You know what I mean? In my house, of varying sizes. At Tulsa, it's the hot. how do you pronounce it in real life? All right, the Korean stone bowls that are used for... Yeah, the Stone Bowl one. Yeah. What's the other word gobdle mean? The gobdol be bimbab when they put it in the Tulsa? Or is that just a word that's in my head for number? Anyway. So anyway, so the stone bowls. like I find are amazing, but I just steal them and like here's the so here's a thief's mind, right? You go, you have the beib and bop in the Tulsa, right? And you're like, oh, crispy rice, egg, egg
+
+[45:21] cooks, when you stir crispy rice, you need some kind of sauce because otherwise the rice is dry. oil, hot bowl, rice, egg, right? Herb on top, maybe. That's what I do. Anyway, point is that like, that's it. Like, that's the framework. That's the symphony. That's the sonata. That is the structure. And then I add whatever I want to it. Now, as long as, you know, like that's the basic structure. So that's how good thievery works. So, like, uh, uh, with Italy's, I'm like, okay, it's uh, Italy rice, um, uh, fenigreek, you know, uh, you know, whatever you're going to put in, and if normally, you, you, uh, soak it, uh, you know, lentil,
+
+[46:04] doll lentil, you soak it, you grind it in a wet grinder, bought one for this purpose,
+
+[46:08] right now you have the basic thing. Awesome. And you can, you know, any number of sauces, you know, eat them for breakfast. you know, and they're like, I can make this into a dinner thing. Hell, I can stuff it. So did I talk about this on air? I stuff chili and other things into the Italy as though it was a steamed
+
+[46:23] bun, but it's still in Italy. That's good thievery, because you're stealing, you're taking somebody else's culture, but you're not tied to it because it's not your
+
+[46:31] culture. So you can just take the structure of it and use it for other things. It's bad if you're being disrespectful. Right. Don't be disrespectful. Don't be disrespectful. But I think, uh, there's nothing, I think, inherently wrong with, like, looking at other kind of construction. What's wrong is saying that you're doing an authentic X, Y, or Z, or trying to pretend that, you know, that, you know, you're somehow the, uh, the, the, the preacher of somebody else's culture, you know, you know, here in the
+
+[47:01] US, that's where it goes all haywire. But if you're just like, hey, I find that this technique or this structure interesting. I mean, how could anyone get mad at that? Just be a fan of it. Yeah, or like, but they, or like, don't even try your say you're trying to do that. You know what I mean? Like, don't even say that what you're doing is related to what they're doing other than this is where I stole this idea.
+
+[47:21] You know what I mean? Yeah, a tribute. Always. Always, always. It is. So I got one more color, but before that, I got a reply from Jack Insley. He says, tell Dave I miss him so much. And last saw Indie Jesus when he was at a cafe in Williamsburg, I will dig deeper into this. We will get some Indie Jesus information, and we also miss the Jackie molecules. Not that you're not great, Dave, but everybody misses Jackie Mollock. Understood. Wait, so we have a caller? All right, call her, you're on the air. Hello. Hey. Hey, so a couple longtime listeners here, we got a quick question for you. Hopefully as a quick answer. Do you have any method for quickly peeling walnuts? Ooh, you know, my grandpa used to be able to break a single walnut in his
+
+[48:08] hand. A single walnut. That's very hard. I'm just going to mention that offhand. I can break. I can crack walnuts, 2 walnuts in my hand. Now, when you say, uh, but not one. Are you saying that but he was also a jerk? So I'd rather have had him been not so much of a jerk and not be able to crack walnuts. Here's my question for you. When you say peeled, you mean get the shell off or do you mean to get the skin off of it? I get the skin, get the skin off of it? I don't have a good technique for it. But, uh, Dave, anyone, we should put that out to the, you know what? This is an interesting problem. Do you have, are you staring at a giant £50 sack of walnuts right now, and that's why you're telling me about this? Uh, no, actually, it's just like a project that came up like a week ago that we, uh, me and a colleague,
+
+[48:55] coworker of mine, we do about like, um, about 200 grams a day, uh, and it's just
+
+[48:59] like it's so much to do in one day that we actually end up taking them home. And like, uh, my girlfriend and I have this like new thing that we
+
+[49:06] do. It's called Netflix and nuts where we just like sit in bed all day and watch Netflix and peel walnuts.
+
+[49:12] Sounds like a good idea. Family show, family show. Oh, oh, Don, you had to take it there. Walnuts. We all know the joke at the beginning of the Snoop Dogg song with the walnuts and we all know, so we're not going to get into that. That was the Snoop Dogg song, right? Anyway, the... This is an interesting problem. I mean, obviously, I know how to do it for almonds, and, um, For a whole, you know what? I'm going to ask, so McGee, Harold McGee, you know, has access to these fantastic walnuts where there's no tannins in
+
+[49:44] this stuff, and so you don't need to get, you're talking about getting the membrane off from the
+
+[49:49] shell, or you're talking about getting the tannic skin off. Uh, the panic skin. Yeah. Uh, I'm gonna, he has an in with the walnut board. So I'm going to see if I can get in touch with McGee. I think he's back in the US. He was in Japan recently. I'm going to see if he can get in touch maybe with the walnut board and see whether or not the walnut board has
+
+[50:09] any, uh, and I'm going to see someone today whose grandpa is a walnut
+
+[50:15] farmer. Uh, and I will also ask him, like, what's, what's going on? Is there a good way to do this? So, like, you can buy the extremely expensive low tannin varieties, but they're not readily available. And they're from California. But I'll look into it. This is an interesting problem. I don't have any answer for you right now, though. Awesome. Chat room's got nothing. Chadroom's got another. All right, we'll get it going. Just keep reminding me, if you don't hear about it, remind me, because I'm going to be talking to everyone I know that's got some nut, some nut knowledge. I'm going to be pestering them when I when I hear them. That's that, by the way, for those of you that don't, that's how I operate in the real life. So, like, when I see someone, I'll be like, hey, you have any ideas on how to get
+
+[50:56] this? I work, right, John? How to bust that nut? Oh, geez, no, you want to keep the nut whole. Keep it whole. Family show. These nuts? Well, you know we love these nuts. All right, so we still didn't get to. So Dave, I know you're going to make me get off the air here. Here's my question to you. Yes, you do have to read that thing before we go. That was not it, but okay. But Nastasia is going to get real mad because she was so psyched that she was going to miss the show where I was going to actually answer all the questions. We've answered like 2 of the many questions that have backed up. Can we just schedule like an extra, like, we're either going to have to do a no caller show, or we're going to have to schedule an extra, like, where we actually finish these things
+
+[51:35] off, or Nastasia is going to be so mad at me. Yeah, we don't want that. Yeah, it's up to you. however you want to do it. I don't know, man. Cooking should people. Let me know. Let me know what you think about the new show. Thanks to Don for coming in. And on the way out, I'm going to read this monitor's pantry
+
+[51:50] rollout. You want to do it that way? I got one question when I want to leave with your listeners. All right. So I know you don't have an answer to this or you have opinions. But I have this question. What is a churro? So, okay. So, like, is it Churro the actual, like, the batter, or is it the shape? It is, well, in other words, if you were to put, if you were to put meat through a churro press, it would not be a
+
+[52:16] churro. If you were to pour batter into oil and not throw a churro press, it would be a beignet or a donut. But it's specific kind of batter. It's not your regular beignet batter or your, you know, it's it's like this like hot batter. I have to look up the churro recipe. First of all, let me ask you a question. Are you a fan of Italian Christmas pastries? Not particularly? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Well, so you know how they have like all kind of Italian has all kind of like cold fried things? Yeah. Like Stroovely and all that stuff. Like, yeah, so like, but, and they don't want to eat it fresh. That's the thing. They don't want to eat it when I think that they should want to eat it, which is funny. So churros, I like a hot churro, but on the subway, they're all culturos. Oh, those are terrible churros, though. But they sell like churros. That's because that's like New Yorkers who've never had a real churro. Uh, the guy selling it is not like, you know, I mean, the guy selling
+
+[53:20] it presumably knows what a churro tastes like. Yeah, but the guy would rather have a real churro set up and be making him fresh if he could. It's just that he's in a New York City subway. See, I don't like this. Here's my point. It's like, if you, people, if you are in a situation where you cannot make X
+
+[53:38] product the way you want to make it, then do not make X product, make Y product or Z product.
+
+[53:44] So you do not believe that this person thinks that the churro that he or she is selling is a valid churro. You think that it's always, you think this person gets up at 0 in the morning, loads up the big board of
+
+[53:59] churros, with all that plastic wrap over it, and the cart, wheels it onto whatever subway line, like hauls their butt out
+
+[54:05] there and sells it knowing that they're selling crap. Knowing that they're selling to people who won't know the difference and that they have to make this compromise because that's the way they're going to make a living. But you could sell anything. You don't need to sell churros. You could sell a different product. garbage. Cookies, for instance. You could, but that's what they sell. I'm not this person. I don't know. Do you like a cold donut? You like a cold donut? Yeah, cold donut's okay. By the way, Wiley's opening his place. Yeah, do his own. Yeah, I didn't get to go to the Friends family, and neither did you, because we were working edible schoolyards last night. But that's when Friends of Family. Otherwise, we would have been there eating his donuts. I heard they were delicious. The rest of my family enjoy them. Anyway, so look out for Wiley's Donuts opening up. But to me, the hallmark of a good donut is a donut that is good cold. Not a churro, huh? Churro has to be hot. All right. All right. Space, space races. So could you could you put churro batter into a waffle iron? And then when it comes out, like put the cinnamon and sugar on it? No. Is that a churro? Could you put a churro in a tandor, John Deragon style? No. No. No. John Dergon wants a tandor everything. Yes, but you still need a fryer. You could fry the churro and then maybe reheat it in a tandor. How about that? Or, you know, you can't reheat it in a waffle iron because that would be... Listen, I can't go too much into the technology of waffles because then I'll be divulging things that Don and I are working on.
+
+[55:31] Let me just put it that way. I cannot go too deep into waffle technology at this point. Give us like three, 4 months and I can go into waffle technology. But the origin of the churro. What is it? I will have to do more research. I have to do more research and we'll leave that with the cooking issues listener. And here, thank you for coming. Here is our, I was supposed to read this earlier, but here it is. Ready? Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family, share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[56:02] Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiast, no matter what your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere
+
+[56:12] else so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com to today, discover why
+
+[56:23] cookie issues listeners call modernist pantry the Cook's Secret Weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernestpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with all that is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools.
+
+[56:40] Cooking issues.
+
+[56:48] Thanks for listening to Heritage radio network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website,
+
+[57:03] heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
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+[57:22] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emergent circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage radio network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:27] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[0:39] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting every week from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 at Roberta Pizza Wee
+
+[0:50] in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Joined as usual. with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez, who's back from her birthday slash vacation in Rome, Italy.
+
+[0:59] How was it? Good. I gotta go back next week. Next week? To Rome. to Milan. Why? Separate reason. For business? Yeah. Business? Milano? Just for 2 days. Okay, so do you already have the itinerary of who you're dealing with? Okay, my theory, I've told you this, is that, like, is that 3 out of 4 men in Milan's name is
+
+[1:19] Luca. Oh. Oh yeah, no. I'm not dealing with anything. Not dealing no Lucas? I don't have an itiner. Yeah, no, all right. And we got Dave and Abooth. How you doing, Dave? Good. I love Milanos. Oh, those cookies? Here's my theory on Milanos, right? Milano's. The original Milano is like a gift from God. The Mint Milano, not as much. And then they have all these other flavors. could be off first. What? How do you do that? Did he break them away? No, I take I, like, scrape the cookie off both sides. That is straight up gross. You would eat, like a, like a free game? Not in front of anybody. That must be really difficult. It is. It's like a bunny rabbit. She's sitting there like gnawing on that, speaking of it. Or I try to like, you know? Yeah, and I say, well, she's doing a little, the teeth bite thing. trying to strip it to chocolate covered crumbs, I guess. Yeah, really. Nice. So speaking of how was your airline flight? Been a banner week in airline travel. Yeah, did you see all the awesome airline stuff that happened this week? No, I heard something on the radio this way. Well, recently there was a huge fist fight that broke out on
+
+[2:20] a, on a plane on an expensive, probably ANA flight back from Tokyo to LA, like a fist fight, like before they took
+
+[2:26] off. Of course, it was 2 American dudes, like, like, one guy ripped the other guy's Hawaiian shirt, like, basically half off of his body, and, like, were like, what? What? He tried to choke out a flight attendant. There was a guy we heard about that, remember? Well, a friend. A friend of our? Oh, wait, who was it? Not really a friend, but like a friend of a friend. But then my favorite story that more relates to cooking issues is have you heard of Simon the Bunny? This happened. I think during the last week. So United Airlines, you know, in battled airline than it is. This story took me so by surprise, killed, all right? killed and then would not return the body of Simon the giant bunny. Now, you're like, what? Like, when this new store came up, this one flew under the radar, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so Simon the giant bunny was now is dead, but was already over 3 feet long. Okay? Like 3.5 foot long rabbit. Yeah, yeah. Nastasi is making the 3.5 foot rabbit arms. Huge. was still growing and was slated to be the world's record, largest bunny. Like, they calculated they, they, the guess was it was going to come in over four, maybe 4.5 feet to be the world's largest rabbits, bred by this lunatic woman, ex-playboy
+
+[3:41] model, and this story just gets crazier and crazier. ex-playboy model. with every detail. Yeah, in England, right, takes Simon the Giant Bunny sells it to some extremely rich rabbit fancier here in the United States, right?
+
+[3:55] Gets on an airplane, flies all the way from London Heathrow to Chicago O'Hare
+
+[4:01] airport. Here's where it gets weird. O'Hare. Oh, boom! I did even get that, nostasia. on fire. Oh, wow. On fire, Nastasia. Wow. So that's a daily newser. Yeah right there. O'Hare, boom. So it makes it all the way over there, right? And then all of a sudden, they're like, no rabbit. And then she's like, where's Simon? They're like, uh, it's dead. And they're like, what the hell happened? It died on the plane. What? It had just gotten a veterinary exam like 3 hours before it had flown because it's an expensive giant bunny. They want to make sure this sucker could fly. You can't put a price tag on that. You can't, well, apparently somebody did. Some rich buyer bought it. Anyway, but here's the thing. So turns out, like, they don't return the body. They don't return the body. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, it doesn't get a seat. It should just get a seat. Just buckle in. Doesn't, they don't give back the body. They're like, oh, we cremated it. Oh, my. Yeah, it's don't tell us. So finally, the story comes out. It made it to Chicago Hare alive, gets off, and some knucklehead puts the crate in a freezer, and just kills it, just freezes this freaking giant rabbit to death.
+
+[5:10] Simon the bunny just freezes him to death. How the heck does that happen? You know what I mean? How does that happen? Like, he's like, hey, hey, for Christ's sakes, Tommy, is that box moving? Tommy. Tommy, is that box moving? Put in the freezer. Put it in the freezer. slow it down. And you know, the thing is, is like, what the heck happened? They didn't return the body. If it was me, here's what I think. I think that Tommy and the other guy whose name, I don't know, I'm making it all up. Yeah, Chicagoan name. Chuck. Chuck. Yeah. So Chuck and Tommy, I think they ate this freaking giant rabbit because they're thinking, when am I going to get a chance? They're both fans of rabbit. They like rabbit to eat. And they're like, when am I going to get such a giant freaking rabbit? I'm kind of curious what it tasted like, but I think that like cremate is some sort of like, yeah, some sort of, what's the word I'm looking for? euphemism for eating it. What do you think, Stas? Tommy. Put it in the freezer. somebody ate that thing. Yeah, somebody ate that. mean, I have to be honest. I'm kind of curious. You know, a 3 foot rabbit can't move that much, right? It's got to be pretty tender. I mean, how much, there are pictures on the web of this lady with her other giant rabbits. So... Sucks sucks to be her giant rat itself. Oh, speaking of cooking and eating things that I enjoy very much, this week, I had my 1st of the year, even though I think it's late in the season, Shad. You ever have the shad ever get you shad? Not Shad Bro. Everyone here is like, oh, shed, road shed, road. I like Shadow. Love the shed. Yeah, Shad, Shad, the fish. Yeah. It's freaking. my. There's a whole festival devoted to it in Philly. Really? Yeah, Shadfest. And you do go eat them? We've talked about this every year we talk about it. It's a it's an almost lost art boning out shad. It's got an extra set of why bones that go into the meat, and so it takes like a fishboning ninja who can like do it, and they bone it out, and then they reassemble the
+
+[7:01] fillet, so it looks whole, but if you lift it up, it falls apart like a piece of lace work. You know what I'm talking about, Dave? Anyway. And you like the meat too, right? It's like a giant herring. It's so delicious. I love it, yeah. I bought a boatload of. I bought a boatload of this stuff in Connecticut and had them where I buy shad. There's like one lady left who knows how to bone these things. And so like, you know, once she's gone, like the shad's gone, as far as I'm concerned, no one wants to eat the bones. You know what I mean? Anyways. So, uh, where was I going with this? Cooked 8 tons of shad on the cowboy grill, but here's the problem,
+
+[7:35] Stas. I went to, you know, I'm doing it. I do it my super high heat multi, multi-step tandor style, like I always do now, which I have something that you'll enjoy later that I can't say on the
+
+[7:43] air. It's not safe for not safe for public consumption. But, uh, family show. Really? So this is my review of the Pit Mitt grill glove. Watch the hell out, right? So, like, I've been using this grill mitt, which I bought so I could work on the tandor and grill. And so I had my all the shad. I had it in those, you know, those like, um, they're almost like clamshell grill holders that are meant so you can just like put a bunch of stuff so it doesn't, you don't have to put a spatula underneath it because that's the only way to move fish off and on multiple
+
+[8:15] times because you don't want it to break apart. So I have it like in the in the thing. And I put it off, on, off, on, but like, damned if that glove didn't have a giant, like, it just, like, burned through on the side, went right into my thumb. was like, wow. I also got the freeze dryer working. I got the freeze dryer working, freeze dried a lot. Yeah, freeze dried out. Oh, here's another thing. You're gonna like this one, Nastasia, about shad. So shad's an oily fish, right? Like herring, right? And, uh, they can hear you talking. So, Nastasia, whispering on the air, people can still hear her. Anyway, the, um, So I had to, you know, bluefish, right? You like bluefish? Dave, you bluefish fan as well? Yeah sure. Yeah. So when I was a kid, right? In the 80s, no one ate bluefish. You just didn't eat bluefish, right? everyone liked the fish for bluefish because bluefish is a real, you know, it's a tough
+
+[9:01] fight. It goes close to the shore, so it's good. It's also good fish from boats. It's real tough fight. Sharp teeth, mean suckers. Like if a bluefish run is going up the, up the shore, and like you wade out into it, it'll take like a hunk out of your, out of your ankle. You know what I mean? they're they're but they're delicious. So everyone fish for them forever, but no one ate them. And so this is the cooking tip that I've never actually tested, but to this day,
+
+[9:24] like, like 30 years later, I still do. When I was like 12 or 13, we were in Cape Cod and this guy was like, hey, you want some free, you want some free fish?
+
+[9:35] And they were like, what? So he caught all these bluefish, and he basically filled the trunk of our car with bluefish. He's like, I'm going to tell you a secret. He's like put mayonnaise on it before you grill it. And then this is what he said. These words, which ring in my ears, 30 something years later, grease gets out grease. And that's all he says. Wow. And so like whenever I grill like an oily fish, I coat the sucker with
+
+[9:58] mayonnaise. salt, pepper mayonnaise. It's just like, I don't even know how to do it otherwise. It's like, it's like when you're a kid and someone says to you, kid. Bluefish has to be real fresh or it smells bad. So that works? Grease gets out grease. don't know. Who knows? I mean, I like my bluefish the way I cook it. You know what I mean? That would be the last thing I would reach for when cooking fish. Mayonnaise? Yeah, I kind of hate mayo. What the what? You're from what? You're from the snack food, like, capital of the of the East? You're from Philadelphia? Yeah, so what? I mean, you have to like mayonnaise if you're from Philadelphia, don't you? I don't think so. Mayo is revolting. You know what? You're getting ready to, you're gonna, you might... Bring it on, chat room. You might jump in here and punch me in the head. I put mayonnaise on cheeseburgers. I mean, not cheeseburgers. I put them on cheeseburgers and cheese steaks. I put mayonnaise on a cheesesteak. Ugh. I like I like... Well, I don't know. You know, grease could sell grease. You know what I'm saying? Grease could sell grease. You know another thing about me? I agree with that, logic. Another thing about mayonnaise is, it doesn't actually go bad. You know, my grandma used to, it's like a sandwich with mayonnaise on it was out of the fridge for more than like 2.2 seconds. She'd be like, um, um, oh. And she throw it away. What, because of the vinegar? Why is it? It's so much oil. There's so little water in it. Then, like, you know, the stuff doesn't, this is why if you go to New Orleans, which I think we talked about this on the
+
+[11:19] show. If you go to New Orleans, and you, uh, and, you know, you, their mayonnaise is just out. You know what I mean? And it's 8000000000 degrees there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. cultural thing. I'm going to do my pre-roll ad right now. What do you think, Dave? Oh, I would love. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook, for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks. visit blog.modernestpantry.com. All right, do we have any callers or should I crank some questions? Yeah, crank some questions. behind on that, right? We are totally behind it. Now that Nastasia has left the room momentarily. She's momentarily left the room. She'll be. Darren writes in, I'm a student with free access to scientific and technical literature. That's good, good kudos to you. What have you learned in terms of finding reputable information quickly? Authors are increasingly under pressure to publish and are sometimes funded by institutions with specific commercial
+
+[12:13] interests? Furthermore, conclusions and abstracts are sometimes worded misleadingly, making scan reading rather difficult. Uh, yeah, so I mean, it depends on what you're trying to do. I don't trust almost any health related news that I get in the scientific
+
+[12:29] literature. And you can usually look for those things for, um, you know, the letters that are written to kind of attack them right away. Like, especially if they're going to make a, like a particularly outlandish claim, there'll be, um, letters in, in, in the actual issue where the stuff comes out that you can kind
+
+[12:46] of, uh, look at. But when it comes to, and the other thing I do, when I'm looking something up, is I print, I, you know, I do a search and I'll, I'll PDF
+
+[12:55] out like 100s and 100s of documents, and then, uh, in general, uh, yeah, the abstract is only gives you a general idea of what you're doing.
+
+[13:04] And then I usually hit the methods real quick to see what's going
+
+[13:09] on, and then I skip almost everything, go to the discussions,
+
+[13:13] conclusions, and then if it warrants it, go back and see whether I agree with how it got there.
+
+[13:18] But for actual cooking ideas and techniques, Um, you know, it's, it's a lot, I think, easier to scan because you can get a really, you know, quick idea
+
+[13:29] whether uh, something, for instance, if they're like 15, a lot of times they'll be like, oh, I bought 15 lamb to do this
+
+[13:37] experiment and it's sponsored by someone who grows lamb, you're like, okay, they're just focused on on
+
+[13:42] lamb. Sometimes you can see the articles are really, really interesting. Another way you can do it is you can go to like review articles on things like meat texture, friendships, with something I've done recently. Go to the review articles and then instead of trying to go forward, burrow backwards, if you find a recent review, you can burrow backwards into the articles that they
+
+[14:00] cite. And so usually if you read a good review article by a good person, sometimes they just do like a poop spray of citations, but sometimes they give a nice kind of focus
+
+[14:09] citations or in the body of the paper, they'll reference what they're talking about. And so you'll hit the links on those, go back and get those papers. And then furthermore, you can see kind of who cited the review and you can go forward a little bit that way, find something you trust and then kind of work backwards. But yeah, it's hit or miss and it takes a long time to research anything. I have like, a couple 1000 pages of stuff on meat texture, maybe 50 of those pages are useful, um, and so it just takes like a lot of sifting through a bunch of garbage, you know, unfortunately.
+
+[14:39] And 2nd question is, what do you think of the big green egg barbecue? I can't afford one yet, but I'm putting intrigued by the design and they seem to be all over the place. Yeah, I'm not like a, you know, I have a Nastasia and Mark's big green egg up at, you know, my place in Connecticut, but I don't use it that much because, um,
+
+[14:56] I'm not much of the stored. I'm not doing a stored heat kind of cooking binge right now. you know, a steady, even kind of thing. I'm more into the, uh, either very low, like low temperature stuff or kind of jet engine screaming, uh, radiant heat and or actual exposed fire.
+
+[15:15] Like, you should see, I have a picture of the shad I might put up, Nastasia, where it's like, like,
+
+[15:19] literally like fire is licking up around it so high because of all the grease getting out the grease that it's like, you know, threatening to
+
+[15:25] light, light me and my cocktail on fire, which is good. Yeah, cocktail. was hoping it was something else. Oh, family show, Nastasia, family show. Jesse wrote in. What can I do to make salsa have a nice consistency besides just pureeing it more in a vitamix? Now, 1st of all, it's a very specific kind of salsa that you want to be that, you know, that pureed out on, right? I mean, stuff. So what do you think of salsa? What are you thinking? Like you're from Los Angeles. What's your, if you just, if someone just says to you salsa, what do you think? Chunky, like chunky, like pico de gallo kind of stuff? Anyway, this is not that. So roasting tomatoes and tomatillos create a nice, smooth, emotion-like consistency. What do you think of the word emulsion? Right. Fine. okay. Was wondering if you had any recommendations? I pureed serranos, onions, poblanos, and pineapple, and it came out like little small granules of fruit and wanted to have a sexier texture without adding another flavor. My question is, is the pineapple roasted? Um, and I, you know, the thing is, if you got a good texture with
+
+[16:22] tomatillos, which tomatillo skins break pretty easily, but tomatoes, depending on which tomato you're using, has, you know, a skin. I'm wondering whether the texture is from the pineapple primarily or from the skins on the peppers, if they were tougher than the ones you were using before. In either case, if you really want to, uh, you know, I would take, like, not all of it, I would take some of it, like the pineapple, hit it with, like, an
+
+[16:45] enzyme, like SPL, blend the hell out of it, let it, like, kill itself down like
+
+[16:50] that. Then you don't want to use it straight like that because it'll settle out. It'll self-clarify. Uh, then uh, heat it to kill off the, um, and by the way, if you didn't cook the pineapple, like that's also going to lead to a grainier texture. So cooking the pineapple is going to help cook it off. Then, uh, then blend it, maybe it's smoother. But let me know. I am not exactly sure what you're trying to go for here. So, you know, give me some more information. Uh, Sandeep wrote about, uh, ICE, uh, says, I've been fascinated with the innovations. Oh, my phone decided to mess with me. I've been fascinated by the innovations made by tinkering with ice. It's significance as a key ingredient is largely has largely been ignored until recently. Indeed, high-end bars tend to concentrate on developing in-house ice program, as is common in the US. So this is a non-US question, I would guess. Or sources, their crystal clear ice products from special providers, has certainly helped bring ice to the forefront, enhancing both flavor and visual appeal. I was interested to read about your experiences and ice preparation at bars, uh, across Chicago, such as defamed aviary. Now, listen, when I went to aviary, I saw their ice stuff. I mean, obviously I wasn't involved. I've never like lifted a finger other than to drink a drink at aviary, but yes, I saw some of their ice production stuff. I'm trying to understand the types of technology and gadgets that are often used in such bars to constantly create innovative and functional products that complement one's drink. I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some advice and methods to take advantage of artisanal license cocktails. Well, 1st of all, at Booker Index, we, you know, we used, um, 3 basic kinds of ice. We used what I call crappy ice and the crappy ice we would use for stirring, the crappy ice we would use to icings down,
+
+[18:30] uh, and, uh, you know, general, you know, dilution related stuff, uh, like that. We use something called shake ice, which is a 2 inch, basically a 2 inch, but not very high quality. In other words, just frozen in the freezer or cloudy, 2 inch or 2 inch inch ice cubes for shaking. We call that shake ice. And we'd use that for the texture, right? Because it adds texture, but you add that one +one or 2 small crappy ice cubes, almost almost cursed. You hear that stuff? Almost cursed. Uh, one or 2 uh, crappy cubes in it to get the dilution down. And then we used cut ice. And so for cut ice, we would buy sheets and then slice those sheets. So you can buy fully cut ice cubes that are perfect squares. I don't think there is nice as the ones that have like 2 machine cut sides, but then you cut the last 4 sides with a
+
+[19:18] knife and it gives it a little bit of a regularity. And I think it looks nicer. What do you think, Stud? I mean, I've never actually asked you. What do you think? Which one do you like to look at better? I like the precut ones. You like the look of them or you like dealing with them? I guess I can separate it. What about when the precut ones come and they don't fit in the glasses and you have to cut them all down, which is 100% of the
+
+[19:37] time. Yeah, I hate them. I don't like the way they look and I like the way they look. I much prefer the ones that are partially hand cut. But yeah, for you, someone like you, it is hard to distinguish between what you think is easier. Although, what's weird is I don't understand why you would think it's easier or harder sense than number of times I've made you cut ice in an event is, let me see,
+
+[19:57] zero. No, I have cut down the pre-cut one. Yes. I've never cut. Right. So, like, since you hate doing the ladder. You should probably order the other one because I'm never gonna... Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, whatever. Now, at the aviary, they do other stuff like they'll fill a balloon with water. They'll buy something called a, they'll buy something called a, a chiller, like a, you know, a circulating chiller. Polyscience is. I think the one they use, that's the one I had that circulates either alcohol or glycol or something like this at a very low temperature, and then they'll fill a balloon with water, and then they'll spin the
+
+[20:32] balloon, and then, you know, Moto used to do a similar thing with other things. They'll spin the balloon in the in the stuff and freeze a layer of water on the inside of the balloon, rip the balloon off, poke a hole, drain the water out of it, freeze it
+
+[20:46] solid, and then they can fill it with a drink and cap it off. So that's the kind of stuff. That's like a presentation ice trick. I never did that stuff. Um, because that's not my style, but that's like, you know, something something you can do. Other people, they buy, they like spherical ice. I am not a fan of spherical ice. Like spherical ice is not my friend. Like, I'll tell you why. When you, um, But anyway, you can buy these spherical ice molds that you take a large cube and then you melt it down using the fact that aluminum like tends to melt things very quickly and you melt them into spheres.
+
+[21:18] Uh, and I don't know if anyone ever built it, but you're supposed to build like a little, uh, it'd be easy to build like a circulating water through the aluminum block to keep it
+
+[21:26] warm such that you could do fast throughput. Here's why I don't like, like, if you had a drink and it sat there and it kept spinning the
+
+[21:34] ball, so it looked like one of those, like, sculpture things that you see in Chinatown or found. you like those things to us, the rock ball things? You know what I'm saying? It's like a rock ball on a thing and a water goes through, hate those. What about waving cat? You don't like the waving cat? What about the intertwined bamboo? No. Do you have nothing nice to say about Chinatown Chotchkes? Do not like trotch. Speaking of Shotkis, you know, who passed is Joni. Oh, yeah. Joni Cunningham. I can never make my my show idea that I had for years, which, you know, it's... Joni loves Chotchis. He's going out flea marketing. I mean, that was my show idea. I mean I never met her. Now it's too late, but wouldn't that, Dave? have been a great show? I mean, it would have made it for like one good episode, maybe. No more. So many. I would watch that. I would watch that. No, I could see that actually on like HDTV or something. Yes, Jo loves Jochke's. Yeah. And like, you know, that puts my my punning skills at their, you know, highest use. I have another one that's a really good business idea. I'm probably never going to do it. If anyone does this idea out there. You owe Dax like several million dollars. You ready for it, Nastasia? think I've heard it. What is it? I don't know, just... All right. So you make you make peeps, marshmallow peeps. I told you this one? I'm already losing interest. Chocolate marshmallows, right? In the shape of poop emojis, with the
+
+[22:58] chocolate with brown, with granulated brown sugar on the outside, marshmallow poops, and you sell them in the
+
+[23:04] thing, 1000000s of dollars. 1000000s of dollars I think you're right, actually. Marshmallow would be a hit. Marshmallow poops. I want anyone make the check payable to Dax Arnold. I'll give you the address and like that poop is a trademark. No, but well, the emoji is not a trademark. You can do whatever you want with the emoji. And secondly, I believe that you wouldn't have to pay the, I swear to God, this is the name of the corporation, the just born corporation. You would not have to pay the just born corporation in my non-accurate legal mind, right? My my non-trained, non-lawyer legal mind, because it is satire. And as such, would not actually be infringing on their copyright, because it is satire, in the way that garbage
+
+[23:46] pail kids, baseball cards, when I was a kid, weren't infringing on products like scope and everything. I think you're wading into a gray area of the pool. Hey, I hope it's a brown area of the pool with some sweet marshmallow poops. Ooh, ooh. Um, anyways, how did we get to where were we? What were we talking about? Ice? we take a break and come back? Yeah, let's do that. All right, read back, clicking issues. You have to read that.
+
+[24:18] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, crème brûlée, vibrant
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+[24:43] purees, even smooth, creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time. Jewel is sleek and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer, and it's operated by an elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork,
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+[24:55] get you cooking faster and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it.
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+[25:00] Browse chef steps, amazing recipes, and helpful guides. Choose your perfect doneness for any meat and get notified when your food is ready. You know you'll get great results so you can focus on sides and sauces, or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner.
+
+[25:14] For more information and to order yours now, visit chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. Oh, yeah, you guys, you guys miss it. I was doing my not safe for radio stuff. It was very good. All right, some more doing some more business here, more business. Mid-roll ad. That's what these are called people. Mid-roll ad. Modernist pantry is created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you.
+
+[25:41] Janie, Chris and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[25:49] Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiast, no matter what your skill or experience, modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else so that you can spend less time hunting and
+
+[26:01] gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit monitorspantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to, I'm breathing a heavy man, because it's, you know, these are long things, and if they want the projection stuff out, I got to be like, I need to learn how to circular breathe. I can circular whistle. Can you circular whistle? You gotta go. Like blowing out, sucking in. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes,
+
+[26:35] tips, and tricks, and don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and
+
+[26:42] tools. And yes, that is what they call it, Anastasia. culinary tools. They're our friends. They are our friends. They're selling the spins all. They're gonna make an enzyme kit. They're making, ah, hear that, people? Enzyme kit. Enzyme kit. Enzyme kit. Spins all an enzyme, kid. Okay, Nick wrote in. Uh, this is a long, it says last week's episode, but that was like, I feel like it was like last year when
+
+[27:04] they uh, when we did this. Last week's episode got me thinking about slushy machines, specifically the type that makes frozen beer foam. Kieran Ichiban makes a machine as well as a South Korean company called Ice Trow. I'd like to buy one of these, but as you'd expect, there's very little info available online, and I can't find them for purchase anywhere. Will a standard slushy machine work as an alternative? No. No, no, no. Or these specialized machines doing something differently. Yes. I don't want to risk breaking a standard machine. You will, as the sugar alcohol content of the beer is not high enough to prevent it from freezing solid, thanks and keep up the good work,
+
+[27:38] Nick. Okay, so I'll tell you a little story. It not about a slushy machine. Margaritaville, Michigan. No, it's about, uh, it's about a tailor software ice cream machine. So ice cream, ice cream, savant, uh, um, Sam Mason came to the French Culinary Institute, you know, like well over a decade ago. This is when he was still at WD 50. And he's like, hey, Dave, I want a carbonate ice cream. I'm like, hey, Sam, I don't know, but you know what? Um, we have an ice cream machine here and uh, you know, I mean, let's try it. And so like, I like, take the ice cream machine. I try to seal it up as best as I can. I shove a, uh, I shove a, you know, a CO2 line into
+
+[28:21] it and we try to carbonate the ice cream mix as it's going. And that sucker, like, I blew the gasket off and, like, ice cream base went all over the pastry kitchen. This was on the 2nd floor pastry kitchen that they turned into the family kitchen. Remember that place? ice cream base everywhere. And then the pastry, the pastry chefs never let me, they never let me live it down. It's like, well, how are you going to learn unless you fail? You know what I mean? How are you gonna learn unless you fail? So the answer is no. You need a special machine that can hold the pressure. Now, here's another thing. To keep in mind. when people want to carbonate things that are slushy, you cannot carbonate ice. Let me repeat this again. You cannot carbonate ice, right? What happens is, is you use in a slushy, you have a good chunk of the water is still unfrozen. Somewhere like north of 50% of the stuff is still unfrozen. It just has crystals in it. And when it's that cold, right? You can get like a hypercarbonation feeling just because the liquid that's there is very highly charged with CO2. But remember that you can't set your machine to freeze it even close to
+
+[29:30] solid. So close to like, I would guess what, like a, you know, I don't really know the water percentage versus ice percentage on a commercial slushy. I don't really know. Do you know Stas? No I do not. Anyway, in one of these machines, it's like 10 to 50%, but it's all done under
+
+[29:44] pressure and so you cannot do it with a regular selecting machine. Someone tell me that they've done it. Tell me how to do it, and I'd be happy. The easiest way to approximate it is just to do the old
+
+[29:53] school, like, uh, you know, super chill it in uh, carbonated thing in your freezer, like hit it. And you know who used to have a machine that would do this is, um, Andy Ricker had a machine from Thailand where they took a windshield washer motor, windshield wiper motor, and they hooked it up to a giant, like, bucket, like almost like a washing machine bucket, and then you salt and ice, and it put the beer, and it was like, like a hula
+
+[30:17] dance. And then he would pull out the beer, pop it, and hit it, and it would just crystallize up like that into a beer slushie. Yeah, New Yorker likes cats. That is a true, not germane, but possibly interesting fact. about Andy Ricker. Yeah. Um, all right. So got another question in here, which I can't see because my phone's decides that I don't want to see it. I don't know why. Daniel writes in. Um, I'm in the planning stages of rebuilding our kitchen and had a question. I've heard you talk repeatedly about how Dave's home oven can really crank. Did you install a commercial range? Okay, listen. Uh, okay, I was saying. Or hack a traditional rage to bump up the BTUs. I've been doing some research about installing a commercial range, but my contractor and family
+
+[31:03] members, read, the wife, seem to think I've lost my mind. You might have lost your mind. here's the problem, right? Depending on your jurisdiction, commercial range might be illegal in your house, right? And the reason is, is that commercial ranges don't have the same kind of insulation on them that a residential range does. Could also have issues with your, um, With insurance, et cetera, et cetera. Now, what I did is I bought the commercial line of a company that also makes residential ranges so that everyone could say, oh,
+
+[31:36] he's just putting in a wolf oven. That's like an oven that people have in their house. It's like some high, you know, high-end, like, you know, some sort of like home chef, which, by the way, is a word I hate. Home chef oven. You know what I mean? Home chef. What does that mean, stuff? Nothing. means nothing. Home chef. Cook, home cook. Love the word cook, cook has honor, right? Like a chef runs a kitchen, right? Unless you're paying your kids and your family to cook for you, you're not a chef in the kitchen, right? You might be the best cook in the world. You might kick the pants off of any, you know, actual chef, but the fact of the matter is, you're a
+
+[32:07] cook and there's honor in that. Am I wrong about this, does it? Anyways. So you have this, uh, he's putting a wolf in. So I'm sure it's fine, but my wolf really, really, really, really screams, and I did modify, but don't tell anyone I did. And it is not necessarily smart for a bunch of things because, as you note, you will not have a commercial fire retardation system, like an
+
+[32:24] ansel in your place. So I don't recommend anyone ever do any of the stuff that I do. I mean, I just don't recommend it. Um, but it is awesome. The results I'm looking for are a broiler that can get as close to as salamander as possible and burners that can help pots recover a little more reasonably. Been stuck on with a puny 5000 BTU gas range in our NYC rental and really looking for an upgrade.
+
+[32:48] Yeah, 5000 is weak, weak. You can get, like, I'm putting air quotes on, like, uh, like, prosumer ranges that'll do, like, upwards of 20. Five is just incredibly weak. Here's what you want to look for, though. When you're buying a commercial range, don't modify your range, please don't like, don't get like kicked out of your place or like, you know,
+
+[33:06] like get sued or better yet or worse yet brought up on criminal charges because you killed someone because your house burnt
+
+[33:12] down. Apartment building burnt down. But the, um, especially nowadays in New York, you you know, gas work, you know, is really, really, really touchy. Um, but, uh, when you have a very high powered burner, a lot of times you lose
+
+[33:25] low-end throttling capabilities. So you want to make sure that, um, for instance, like, let's say you were going to, which I don't recommend bore out
+
+[33:32] the uh, the orifice on your gas jets to get a, and you were able to increase
+
+[33:36] the uh, air in such that you weren't uh, red tipping too hard. You were getting nice blue flames on it, but you were getting a bigger flame. Let's say you knew how to do that, right? Often you'll won't be able to throttle it low to get a good simmer. So, like, on my oven, because I told my, uh, the plumber, because I was told that I had to do it legitimately, I
+
+[33:56] with a plumber, I was like, please install this regulator in front of my gas oven because
+
+[34:00] any, even semi-commercial oven needs a regulator on it, and they didn't install it, even though I told them to, the same way that they didn't install freaking quarter turn ball valves on my, on my water plumbing, even though I told them I would pay twice as much, even though they only cost a nickel more.
+
+[34:15] And they, like, there's no reason to ever use non-quarter turn ball valves on any water
+
+[34:20] fixture in your house for the shutoff. Anyway, I digress. But the point is, didn't install the regulator, and so my oven, my burners scream, scream, but they don't throttle down. And so I'm thinking of one of these days, like doing it myself, putting the regulator in properly. Uh, anyway, uh, I think I might have answered this, but uh, BJD wrote in and said, I see a lot of recipes for soaking Shagbar, hickory, bark, and shag bark, not
+
+[34:47] shad, shag, like shaggy, like the character. Yeah. to make a syrup, but nothing about tapping a hickory tree. A guy in a house down the street taps his shag barks. Are you familiar with hickory syrup via tapping and not an infusion? Any thoughts? I have many shag barks I can tap, uses sent respectfully from my phone, BJD. I don't. What I would do is, do you hate this person? If you do not hate this person with a passion, right, go ask for some of their syrup and see or the sap and see how it
+
+[35:18] tastes, and then let me know how it is. I mean, I have no, you know, I only have one or, most of the hickories on, on my property are, uh, mocker nuts and bitter nuts, uh, pig nuts. I don't have like a, I have like only a couple uh, good, um, shag barks, so I can't really tap them, but, you know,
+
+[35:36] I'd be curious to know. I think a lot of our listeners would be curious to know. I've had a number of birch syrups, which I think I talked about recently on air, and they tend to be much more acidic. And I think one of the reasons, although I don't know, is that it requires a lot more boiled down. So there's a lot other, I guess you'd call congeners in it than there would be in maple syrup. Anyway. Martin Hodgson writes in. Oh, no, Martin writes in from Hudson, Wisconsin about walks. Hey, uh, Dave Nastasia and David, uh, and any honored or dishonored in the case of Peter Kim, guess. We emailed, we emailed Peter Kim this morning, we're like... Oh, really? Oh, I emailed him again and he, and he finally got back to us. So, like, he's like, dishonored guest. And then he was like, you know, he was... He's playing like a 1000 like tiny violins for his pity party. You know what I mean? It's like, I should be so honored as to be someone's dishonored guest. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, uh... People like the Peter Kim on the show, though. Not like love. They love the Peter kid. They love Peter Kim because, I don't know, he, you know, he pushes, he pushes the buttons, Peter Kim. Peter Foil. Speaking of, uh, the reason I wanted Peter Kim on today, not just because he's a dishonored guest, but because uh,
+
+[36:48] MoFad, the Museum of Food and Drink at, you know, www.mofad.org, just got rated by Grub Street, one of the top, like, uh, not that
+
+[36:56] not even know, we were like number two. So I didn't even know, see how long the list was, a museum to take kids to in New York.
+
+[37:02] So booyah, just below the American Museum of Natural History. Boo and yah. That's my favorite. It is a pretty butt kicking museum. Did you go see the mummies? You gotta go see the mummies. So crowded. Yeah, go during the week. Yeah that's true. Yeah. I think I have a card that will get you in for free. I go through the gift shop. Whoa, old school cheat. You know, someday Nastasia and I just have to do an episode that is
+
+[37:29] purely like the shady, crappy things that
+
+[37:34] like I had to stop doing once I had kids because I was no longer proud to do them and be a father, but ways to get around paying for X,
+
+[37:41] Y, and Z. Nastasia, Nastasia is like the queen of such tricks. That's true. You know what I used to do because like, this is how like, you're trying to maintain some sort of dignity. I used to scrouge around at the Met on the ground for the buttons. Do you ever do that? You can go into the gift shop. And then you could be like, oh, my God, I don't know where it is. Oh, it's the way that says lying. lying. You know what, you know what? No one has the stones to do. My suggested price is zero. You know what I mean? which one's the one that suggested? Is that the... Yeah, but, like, who has? I mean, you have to look that person in the eye and tell them that you're that cheap, that you won't pay anything for what is undoubtedly one of the finest museums in the whole world.
+
+[38:24] You know what I mean? Even though, honestly, at this point in our lives, we can afford to go to that museum. It's not like we're, but this, like, being like, you know, 20 years old and, like, like, you know, not having any money is still in your head, right? When you're going up to pay for it. you can't suddenly jump out. Someday it goes away. That feeling? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Uh, we had another question in, uh, from Darren. I mentioned, I'm an aerospace engineering intern, and I'm currently designing a two-face heat exchanger for
+
+[38:58] metal 3D printing. The resolution of these systems is pretty awesome. think details of less than half a millimeter, which is, by the way, pretty good. So the parks can be very complex. If you guys, meeting us, had access to selective laser centering. What would you like to make for the bar of your own kitchen? I don't know. That's a really interesting question I'd like to hear from the cooking issues, listeners, what they
+
+[39:18] think like the best 3D metal print, because I would just print every damn thing.
+
+[39:22] I would just wake up and be like, this spoon, I don't like it anymore. And I would print a new one, right? wouldn't you? Yeah. I would just do all sorts of... I would make my, I would go on solid works and make a, you know, a juicer that I could print out a metal for no problem. like, you know, finally, the ultimate juicer. I would definitely do that. I would print a bunch of metal jiggers because right now I'm using plastic jiggers. I would print like, you know, there's so much stuff I would print. If I had, um... Chat room says a lot of espresso parts. I guess they mean it for an espresso machine. Oh, to build their own, like what, like a custom porta filter? I guess. Problem is, he right now is printing out of alumina, but he can print, check this people. He can print titanium and magnesium. How sick is that? Titanium. But in general, people for their porta filters. I think stupidly, by the way, I'm just going to go ahead and say that. They like brass. Brass is more stable, but it also sucks energy up. So when it does go out of temperature, it throws all the other temperatures off. I mean, I could go for a long time about, like, you know, old school versus kind of what I think more modern approach to certain of those designs, not that I'm an expert anymore. Anyway. Um, see what else we got here. Uh, John. Uh relatively new listener. Um, I saw, I heard a podcast where you talked about soda streams and carbonation, wanted to offer some advice. I'm a brewer. So I know a fair amount about carbonation. For home carbonation, this is John saying this. Simplest, cheapest way to go is to buy old soda kegs, a CO2 regulator, and a tank, carbonate 5 gallons at a
+
+[40:46] time can be served on tap. That's what I do. I have 4 taps at home, one is dedicated to soda water. I say, I, a slight disagreement with you here. I think if you have a refrigerator that holds kegs, then I would say yes. But otherwise, if you're doing a 5 gallon, like corny keg, and you're putting soda water in it, you're going to have to put it through a cold plate, which you have to ice down, right? So either you keep the water cold and you have to do the carbonation on the 5 gallons or you're putting it through a cold plate. Cold plate is, I think, beyond what anyone is going to do. And I think once you get a cold plate. If you're actually going to get a cold plate, you might as well just get a carbonator, which is what I have.
+
+[41:22] You know, like a McCann, big Mac carbonator, which is a lot more expensive, but it's pretty sick. And then putting it through a really good valve. You know, I use one with a nice compensator on it. But, you know, I think if you have a beer system already with a, like a keggerator or a fridge that's dedicated to holding beer, then 100%, I think you're right, like a 5 gallon corny keg is a good way to go.
+
+[41:44] Um, I think for people at home, you know, who don't want to use a soda stream, the good thing about doing it in the bottles with the carbonation cap and the liquid bread people, which is what I use for
+
+[41:54] cocktails, is that you only have to chill the bottles that you're about to use, right? And so pretty much everyone can just stick a bunch of one liter bottles of water in their
+
+[42:01] fridge and then carbonate it when the time comes. Uh, two, uh, this is John referring to me. You keep saying nitrous, it's not nitrous, it's nitrogen. Nitrous gets you high, nitrogen, doesn't. And then you go on and say nitrogen only stays in solution of very high pressure. So when something is dispensed on nitrogen, it wants to come out of solution, you get beautiful waterfall effect like Guinness, you can have a variety of blends, but Guinness blend is
+
+[42:24] 75, nitrogen, and 25 CO2. Yeah, I know that. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about nitrous. I specifically do not want nitrogen. Uh, you know, I want nitrous, which is very soluble and allows you to get really interesting texture effects. Commercially, the only things I've ever seen that have been done with nitrous. Uh, A&W and Sunkist did kind of cream sickle and root beer float drinks that were charged with nitrous. They didn't really catch on. Now people are doing coffee beverages with nitrous, N2O. And because it provides a very lively effect without having the prickliness of
+
+[43:03] carbonation. So in a nitrogen situation, other than just having the kind of waterfall effect, you also, you are able to dispense at a higher pressure without having too much CO2 in it,
+
+[43:13] overcarbonated, right? Like a beer gas situation. But yeah, I'm specifically doing nitrous. Nitrous is difficult to source because, as you say, it will get you high if you huff it. Back,
+
+[43:22] the tank I used to have at the French Cullinary Institute, and we had one at Booker and Dax as well. Like the one rule I really had that was hard and fast with our interns where you may not huff the nitrous. You may not huff the nitrous. It's one of our only rules. But yeah, when I carbonate on a mixed gas system, I am definitely not pushing
+
+[43:41] nitrogen. In fact, if anyone tried to push nitrogen into my water, I'd give them a stern, a stern
+
+[43:47] look and a stern talking to. Nastas, you've seen my stern look in talking too. Yeah. Uh, anyways, uh, there's a company called Atheist 3. There is a company called AC Beverage who makes a product called Cellar Stream. It is used to take still beer kegs, hooked them up, and it will neutrogenate them on the fly. This is a great asset to allow bluers brewers do not have to worry about getting the proper amount of nitrogen in solution, the keg, they can simply pull the beer out from fermentation, fill the kegs, hook them up, and let the seller stream do the work.
+
+[44:15] Oh, interesting. I don't know that product. I am interested. There's a person that makes an in-line carbonator that basically just circulates a 5 gallon corny keg through a carbonation
+
+[44:25] stone a bunch of times. I forget who makes it. Same people that make the beer gun, which I've never been that happy with. anyway. I hope this helps you guys have a very informative podcast and I enjoy it. Cheers, John. Your sister, what time is it says? Woo! Your sister wrote in. Last question. Last question. What do you want, take your sister or Claire? Oh, God. My sister. Your sister? All right. So, uh, Natty wrote in. Natty Lopez wrote in, who where is she now? She's at the home in country, garden, town and country. She not doing the show anymore? We frighten the hell out of her. You upset her. Oh, she just hung up on you. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you did. I remember. When do you know that eggs are old? That's the that's it. Now, people, remember Family Show? We're not talking about like, I'm not talking about the latest... Yeah, 1st of all, what is she, like 25,
+
+[45:23] 22, some of it is. Maybe she should see an OBGYN. Yeah, like, listen, you're too young to worry about the quality of the eggs at this point.
+
+[45:33] You don't need to go on a freezer on a freezer binge. Like other people who shall remain nameless. This has it true or false. Like the thing that the city thing to do now is to like freeze up a passel of eggs so that you might want to use them
+
+[45:45] later. It's not the cool thing to do. It's not the cool thing to do. People are scared. Of what? lots of things. They don't understand it. The only reason I think it's great is because I understand liquid nitrogen. Ah, I see. Uh, so we're not talking about that kind of eggs, people. We talking about like, you know, eggs in your fridge eggs. So classically, 1st of all, if you just look at a package, they have a date on
+
+[46:09] them, and I forget what the number is, I think it's like 4 months or something like that. You threw it away. If you threw away the package, you just do the old float test. If the egg sinks, it means that the air cell at the top is relatively small. What happens is as an egg ages, eggs are porous, and the gas cell in it will get bigger and bigger. So an egg that goes to the bottom is very fresh. An egg that stands up in a bowl of water, and then an egg that floats. It's not necessarily bad, but it's older, so it's going to have a lot more thin white versus thick white. It will have lost life as thick white, and so it won't make as nice of a fried egg, and it'll have a big air sack in it. But it still probably is not spoiled. It's still probably okay. egg is fine. Most eggs are fine, especially you're going to cook them. You know what I mean? Like most eggs are fine. Um, you know, when was the last time you had back when I was a kid, if you wanted to throw rotten egg at someone Halloween time, you had to like store those things for weeks and weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave you used to do that when you were hanging out when you were a kid? Sorry, what did you say? Th storing eggs to get them rotten for Halloween time. No. Yeah, yeah, you have to storm a long, long time. Eggs don't want to go back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Are we are we are we done or no? Because we have a related quick question. Alright, real quick. All right, Claire wrote in and said, was reading this article from February this year in the New York
+
+[47:34] Times from Kim Seversen about refrigerating eggs. And it's like our culinary compatriots in Europe, Asian, other parts of the world leave beautiful bowls of eggs on their kitchen counters. Uh, so uh, what giz? And actually, I shouldn't have started this, Dave, because it's a whole thing. We've dealt with it before on the washing days versus not. So if anyone wants to hear the whole why we refrigerate our eggs in this country, like a lot has to do, you know, 1st of all,
+
+[48:00] with, I can get into it next time. If anyone's interested in hearing the rant on eggs, email
+
+[48:06] me, email Nastasia and see what's going on. Otherwise, we finally caught up on questions. Boom. Cooking issues.
+
+[48:20] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you.
+
+[48:58] Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects,
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+[0:04] discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our
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+[0:15] showrooms, where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
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+[0:20] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. This episode is brought to you by Jule, the emerging circulator for sous vide by chef steps. Order now at chefsteps.com slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported Food Radio Network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:57] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[1:09] Hello and welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network. Every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245, uh, for Birds Peachwick, Brooklyn, uh,
+
+[1:22] joined, uh, as usual with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? I'm using Nastasia's normal microphone, and it's even more kind of like... It's even worse than mine. I'm surprised. I always thought I was giving you the good one, but no, it's all like bent and crooked. We got Dave in the booth, how you doing, Dave? I'm good. not been in crooked in here. Wow. Mine just lord it over us, Dave. I think I just did All right. But listen, you're going to want to get your telephones or whatever you use Skypeages or whatever you do to call in your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 because today in the studio, we have 2 special guests. We have Elias Cairo from Olympia Olympia provisions. I always want to say Olympic, and then you'll shoot me in the face. I'll support you. All right. In Portland, we met, how long ago? Like, but in the spring, Six months ago? Yeah, yeah, at the Oregon Truffle Fest, and I had the great good fortune of going to a special dinner at
+
+[2:18] EdOP and Fantastic. So I'll just say for those of you that are going to Portland legit, I'm going to give it the cooking
+
+[2:25] issues, legit stamp. Awesome. And we also have in the in the studio, Samantha, what's your last name, Samantha? Chulick. Chulick. And you are a food PR person, huh? That is correct. Wow. So what's so like we're just going to get this out of the way now. So did you start out wanting to be a food PR person or are you just a general? By the way, do you find the term flack offensive or not? No we're good. All right. So did you start out as kind of a general purpose flack so you could either be selling thumb tax or food or cars? Are you one of these people that actually enjoys food? I, strictly food and beverage. All right, so as we like to say, one of the good ones. Yeah. Because, like, you know, like, in a lot of businesses, I'm sorry, you know, the last, you know, talking about, it's like you get these people in there. They don't really care what the hell they're selling. You know what I mean? It's like Dave over here. He doesn't care what he's recording. Noise. Wow, is that really what you think of me? I'm just busting you because of a microphone crack, Dave. Come on, you know it's all love in here. Do you feel better now? No, I feel slightly dirty. So we got a bunch of cool stuff. Call in your questions, like I say. So, you know, for those of you that don't know Elias, he's like a hunter, a cure master,
+
+[3:39] uh, like a, you own these 2 restaurants, right? Two real restaurants and then 3 fast casual, like hot dog beer bar top places. And then also wrote, what is it now? Well, wrote a 1000000000 years ago and then came out like a year and a half ago, right? It takes a 1000000000 years to write a book. It's slowest thing I've ever done. Yes, I'm just going to get this out of the way right now. My kids, both my freaking kids, decide last week. In the middle of me writing a book that has a lot of meat cookery, that this is going to be the time that
+
+[4:07] they go vegetarian. You know what I'm talking about? It happens, right? And so here it is. I'm like, you know, what am I going to eat? Whole freaking crown roast by myself. I'm going to eat like I'm going to do like a Chateaubriand for one. Like, what the heck am I going to do here? Invite the neighbors over, make it friends. Yeah, but you know what? I'm just not like that. I'm not like that So, I don't know how it is in Portland. First of all, by the way, you guys, uh, over there at Olympia Provisions, the only people in Portland who are guaranteed to be working at any given
+
+[4:38] time. am I right? Yeah, I mean, like, what is what is it with Portland and the lack of, like, work? They're there. Not everybody moves to Portland to work. Some people move there just to retire. Enjoy the fricking rain. But people are retiring. They're like 20. I know. A lot of them. I know, I get slack all the time for being hard-working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nastasia has got her Portland face on, which is, I can't believe nobody's working here. Really, it's all jealousy. why didn't we do this? But anyway, I don't know how we got. I don't know how we got on the subject of working in point, yeah, working in it. But anyway. So, yeah, so this book came out in, what, the end of 15 or something like that? Yeah, October. Yeah, so it's called American Equality. How do you pronounce the title? American charcuterie. Olympi? Do you start with the Olympian provision? I say Olympia provisions. And then American charcuterie equality meats. Yep. I say cured meats and tails for Olympia provisions from an American triguterie. See how I had to read that? I like that. But anyway, what I'm going to say about this book, and we actually talked about it a little bit in Portland. It's a super pretty book. Like I think it's like a really, really beautiful book. And, um, what I, and I mentioned this to you and you actually said, I think, unless my memory is like Zonked, I didn't have that much
+
+[5:50] sparkling wine that day, that, uh, you know, one of my favorite series of cookbooks in the world is the
+
+[5:55] Timelife series of cookbooks, uh, that came out in, I guess starting in the late 60s and going through the early 70s where they go around the world.
+
+[6:02] And the cool thing about it is, well, the cool thing now is you can get them for like $2 apiece, they're still free. You get the whole set. People go out right now, go on eBay, get the whole set. A must have. Yeah, must absolutely must have. And they hired, not that food photographers aren't real photographers. Please don't get me. I don't want to hear it, but they hired people who, like, were, you know, like, for instance, sports illustrated photographers or, you know, general subject photographers. And so these books have some of the sickest photography like anywhere. And so like a lot of the photos you have here have, I mean, they're modern. not from the 70s, but they, uh, you know, it's printed on that kind of matte paper. So it's got that awesome kind of flat feel to it. And, you know, you've got a lot of like, you know, not straight recipe shots in it.
+
+[6:50] Um, and so anyway, so I think it's a really, really, uh, uh, really beautiful book. And I also, um, I like the way that it's, uh, you know, it's, it's also personalized. You know what I mean? So it reminds me of like, you know, anyone who writes nowadays is going to
+
+[7:05] be obviously more, not that he wasn't technically minded. Don't get, but like, you know, Bertoli's book, Hooking by Hand, right, was, I think, an extremely personal book that was tackling some technical subjects before anyone else had written on
+
+[7:18] this, on these kinds of subjects before. And I still think it's a, I mean, I haven't, okay, I haven't read it in over a decade. Still such an amazing book. Yeah, but I mean, great book. But so like, you know, I really like books that are personal, but that tackle like real issues in the kitchen. And you can tell when you go through it that this is, you know, written. you know, I know some of the recipes are yours, some are like, you know, pastry chefs, some are a bunch of people, but written by people who actually know what they're doing. It's not like you made this once and now you've written it down and that's it, which is, you know, an unfortunate thing
+
+[7:48] cookbooks. Hey, speaking of reading, can you quickly read that thing I put in there? Oh, God, dang it. The pre-roll ad. We're going to do some business. You got to do some business. Today's program is brought to you by modernist pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook, for free videos, recipes, tips and tricks. visit blog.modernistpantry.com. Back to your regular reschedule program. Nailed it. All right, let me, let me see the book for second. I want to read this quote that I think Nastasia is going to love the most out of the introduction because this is like, this is
+
+[8:16] what, going back to like, like a work ethic in Portland. You grew up like a Greek family in freaking Utah. Salt Lake City. What's that all about? There's a lot of Greeks out there. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's the same climate as like the Spartan mountain Greeks, you know, sage breast, cold winters. There's a ton of Greek, great Greek food. Really? Yeah, yeah. So my dad moved out there because copper mine, the Kennicott copper mine was originally owned by a Greek man and he brought all of his hard-working Greek friends from the mountains to come mine
+
+[8:42] it. And then they came back and told their children how amazing Salt Lake City is. At least that's how the story goes. And there's a ton of Greeks and a ton of Greek churches out there. And yeah, great food. So, like, is there a big culture clash between, like, you know, the Greek Orthodox and the Mormon? Is there like a? Yeah, you know, like Michelle and I and Billy Villamis if you're out there. We're the only 3 Greeks in our elementary school and the rest were all LDS. LDS are beautiful people. There's a little quote in their little story in there that we got called to the principal's office because we stunk too much like garlic, and the kids couldn't focus, and my father walked in and like super Greek, like, you know, thick
+
+[9:17] accent and be like, your children smell like detergent and whipped us out of school. And it like took us, like, it's like, you're not going there. We're teaching in the rest of the year. We stayed at home and homeschooled. smell like the Turkey. Well, this is going to be apropos. So this is a quote about your dad, uh, where, you know, you're, I guess, you know, uh, paraphrasing what he might say to you, need glue, go cut into the pine tree and mix the sap with sand to make it
+
+[9:38] pliable. Oh, you were planning on buying glue? Are you lazy or just stupid? So true. Right? And Stasia, like now, Nastasia didn't know you, but now she loves you because that's like her, that's her whole attitude.
+
+[9:50] her whole attitude on it. Also, another thing Nastasi's going to like about it. You spend some time cooking in Switzerland. This crazy, did you see this place and stuff? He worked at this restaurant where it's like someone just, I don't know how the hell they got the building there, but it's like a carbuncle shoved onto the side of a freaking mountain.
+
+[10:10] What's that what's that place called? That one's called the Hotel Asher, or Bearg restaurant Asher. It an app and cellar. It's just on the fucking Liverpool. Where is the, where is it? That's in the northeast corner of Switzerland. That's in the Cantun app and cellar, but that whole region is called Sangala. So like Austria, Germany, the Bodense, or what do you, yeah, Lake Constance, all that right there. The mountains right above there. How the hell do they get their fat? 1st of all, like where are their customers coming from? Yeah, like the Swiss are super hardy people and they love to eat when they're hungry. And so, like, the idea of going on an all day hike to eat, like, you know, huge smoked meat and chunk of cheese and like some fruit is just what they love to
+
+[10:45] do. And, like, you'll be out there hiking, thinking you're pretty cool, and, like, a 70-year-old grandma will fly by you, just being like, oh,
+
+[10:50] do, do, do, yodling, and a dude cruising up to the... Did you learn to yodel while you're over there? No, not very good. I tried. Nastasi and I both love the yodeling game on the Price is Right. beautiful game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. remember that? What were we making fun of? Temperature. You need to add that in your book. The CV temperature, like the yodel. And then if you get the wrong temperature, it's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. awesome. And we were trying to remember the tune. I can never remember the tune. right? We could never like, for some reason, it's one of the, you know, there's those tunes that just leave your head and you can't get
+
+[11:22] them back in your head. And then there's those tunes, like the theme from Quincy that go into your head, you can't get them out of your head. Three weeks later? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, or Rockford files, for that matter. But Rockford Files, I feel, deserves to be in your head. I mean, you know, rock profiles with Sanford Sun, whenever those theme songs come into your head, you're like, all right. That's good, fair. That's good business. All right, so before we get too far in, a couple of bones I have to pick, so we might as well fight about it now. We're both lovers of nitrate and nitrites, obviously. in curing. And you make a lot of amusing points about, you know, not kind of worrying about
+
+[11:56] it because a lot of people are worrying about it, especially over probably on the west coast, you get all the... right All the time. Literally for everything, that voice. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, the thing is, I think I've said this on air, but like, it's only been the last 3 years that people have gotten through my armor at events.
+
+[12:13] Like usually I can maintain my kind of, I'm happy to serve you, customers always
+
+[12:20] write kind of a thing. It's only been the past couple of years. If somehow it's just like too many hits and I'm like, I was like, oh. you do the breath. Yeah, yeah. And so this stuff, he's like, what the hell is that? Because I always ride her about it. You know what I mean? I always ride her like a pony for like, for like showing her displeasure in front of the family show. But oh, well, not like that. You know what I'm saying? Dang, mandy. Gutter day. And... Anyway, so like, you know what I'm saying? Only recently I've been like, but the, uh, so you say that it's 100% illegal to cure meets without,
+
+[13:00] uh, you know, nitrates or nitrates, but super long cure stuff like dry cure, like hams, like prosciutto department you can do without nitrates. Not that you need to, not that I think it makes it better, but the classic Italian one nowadays is made without that stuff.
+
+[13:12] And furthermore, you can do anything legally if you have the 100s of 1000s of dollars to spend it, it's a safe process. to prove it. Yeah, you got to prove it. You got to prove it. But yes, in general, I think what you're, like, what I think you're probably reacting to it. Harold McGee sent me an email. Uh, yeah, about Oscar Meyer now is doing their nitrate free, nitrate
+
+[13:32] free, hot dogs. Yeah, of course. Hot dogs. And it says, uh, cured. Oh, see, the only the nitrates, of course, it's the standard. Only the nitrates naturally found in celery, jokers. Like they should be, everyone should be skewered. This is Whole Foods' fault. 100%. This is freaking Whole Foods fault. You know, Samantha, you don't flak for them, do you? No, I did not. All right. So like, like, it's 100% their fault. It's garbage. I mean, the food can be taste good, but the labeling is garbage. Yeah, it's total smoking mirrors. Everybody out there, I want you on all of your labels and in all of your food on your menu to write to write this. contains no salt other than that naturally found in the ocean. Yeah, and then you're like, oh, sea salt. Oh, yeah, you know what mean? Yeah, yeah, right? You can do it. Because it's the same freaking thing. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It's like you take like 8 billion. What do they do with the rest of the celery? Well, they just pure it. So they load the they load the soil or chard or whatever they're using for their nitrate thing. They overload the manure with nitrate. And so when the spinach or the chard's growing in that, it picks up all the extra nitrate, the exact same compound that is in regular
+
+[14:38] nitrate. And they puree, and then they use that as their salt and their nitrate. just the same thing. Total loophole. My favorite thing is that called Switzerland, right, where I did my apprenticeship. I was like, hey, man, you know, what are you guys doing about nitrate, just total brain farts, like they'd give a living shit about it. they're like, hey, what are you talking about? We give nitrate to our children when they're sick. Like, it's good for you. It's a vitamin. I know what the hell's wrong with you Americans. I'm like, good conversation. I'm gonna leave now. Yeah, well, but on the other hand, the Europeans have their own issues, right? I mean, like every place has its own issues. But before the cooking issues. Anastasia flips through there and look at the, do you see the hot dog picture? think I bookmarked it. No, I just think it's like, this is the kind of picture I like. Like a bunch of hot dogs, and then like a couple pictures later, this, this, Oh, I know this inn that's shoved into the side of a mountain. So question, how the hell do they get their food into that place? Depending on where. So this place is pretty amazing. The one that's called the Asher is because their whole thing is they have these 2 gigantic limestone water pits behind there that that's the only water they
+
+[15:36] can get up there. So the water filters through the cliffs and lands in these limestone pits. As soon as they're out of water, they're completely closed for the year, and then they go back to carrying me, hunting me and raising me. What do you think about that, Anastasia? Oh, yeah, it's super, they're super freaking amazing. This place up there to put it into perspective with 2 cooks does about 500 covers at lunch. And they do roshti, which is, you know, boiled potatoes and that. you know, now there's a tram. It goes up the backside and they bring it across on mule. But still, like the water and all the meat, the father and son bring up on mule, like twice a year. Literal pack meal. pack meal. Yeah. The one, the bigger one, the one at the end, the Roachstein Pass, the one where you see these
+
+[16:12] sign these ibex there. This is the path to it. It's up like this cliff, and you run across it, that one, the only way to get anything up there is with mule. So everything is brought up on mule. And they do Steinbokfeffer, which is those ibex that are soured like sour Broughton, and then they slowly braise it and then they thicken it with blood. And so it makes it, then they can it, and then they put it on the mules, and then they take it up top. And when you get up there, you're also going to have Rochti, Steinbok Pfeffer, applesauce, and sour cream. So like, what's the portion size on that? Really? Oh, that's huge. Yeah, no, like a roasti. go get a charcuterie board or a cheese plate, any one of these places and it's like for 10 in America. Well, you hiked up the side of a freaking house. You deserve it. That's like uh, that's like I was talking to uh, a Sherpa. And he was like, I was like, yeah, how come, you know, you're Buddhist and everything, but you eat
+
+[16:58] meat. He's like, you have, we eat nothing but fat. We live at the top of a freaking mountain. Yeah, we need so many calories. A carrot after climbing ever snow? No. You pound, yak, and yak meat, yak, fat. yak butter and yak milk. I was like, that makes total sense. That makes total sense to me. So did you get to go hunting when you were in Switzerland or no? Yeah, the guy, so the guy that I worked with that I did my apprenticeship under was the Jagermeister of the Valley. So he owned this hotel and butcher property. That means hunting master, not the liqueur. The liquor master we got to drink. No. So if you wanted to shoot an animal in our valley. You had to go to Bierger and ask him if there was any unhealthy animals. Could you hunt it? Where should I do it? And after you shot the animal, you'd bring it to our restaurant in our butcher shop, and we'd process it for you. You know, there was tons of different ways we could process, sell it back to you, buy it off you, use it in the restaurant, but we would cure and ferment and make all of our meat out
+
+[17:49] of like, you know, 2 to 300 wild animals a month. So the Jagermeister is literally like a traffic cop for shooting animals. Exactly. And he knows where they're all at. So like every single day he's up super early with binoculars, like just scoping for animals and he took me a couple times with him. I was never able to kill an animal, but like after year 3 of me like cutting up animals and working my ass off, he's like,
+
+[18:09] tomorrow we go hunting, and I was like, holy shit. So, like, wait, is he, like, take the one with the busted horn. It's not so good in the picture. Is that what he's like? It's like the sick ones. You know, they don't shoot young ones. Like, there's a story here in there where he shot his 1st elk.
+
+[18:25] It's very hard to find elk up there. And so that's very small herds. And he got an elk from his, like, all the other Jägermeister's men and said there's this young elk coming up. You follow it until it's sick and you kill it and he followed it for 14 years. And he kept, every one of it sheds. So every time it shed it every year, he followed it and then he finally shot it stuck in a snowbank. So, like, it was on its deathbed, and he's like, I think the other Yeager was like, he was actually in Austria, across from Switzerland. He's like, I see your elk, Bjarger, come, shoot. So like that voice, even though they're German. I like that. So wait, so here's so they're predominantly hunting older animals then. So how's that for cooking? It's musky, but I love that. Like, I like game funk, you know? Have you been to the Spanish people who do the raised super old cows? Like, you know, Jeffrey Steingard and Harold McGee were like, oh, oh, the seven-year-old cow? Mom, mom, mom. I mean, they don't talk like that, but you know what I mean? But like, ma, ma, ma. I'm Jeffrey Steingarten, man, man. But, uh, the, uh, no, but I mean, like, you know, it's this, it's this thing in Spain, obviously everyone in America shies away from old meat in general. Um, but I mean, just from a cooking standpoint. I mean, to people respond to the different texture well over there, or like when you're cooking for an American, you can't really translate that kind of a recipe. Totally. Yeah, I mean, like an old, like a five-year-old ibex liver, for example, and you would eat liver, all
+
+[19:51] that, like, the wild animal liver is so sought after. You're not serving that to anybody in America. They're like, they're taking a bite of that. I know like Americans who won't eat deer liver over a year old. Right. You know what I mean? Like, they were like, you know, no, God, I love deer liver. I know, but you're absolutely right. I mean, you'll see people hunting that leave two-thirds of the animal out there and you're just like, in Europe, that does not ride. You're never going to stumble upon like a half cleaned carcass. It's like whole animal brought out everything utilized. Everything enjoyed very, very much so. By the way, do you do any low temperature cooking with hunting? You ever pull out a circulator and bust it down? No, I'm so old school. I don't even know what a like a circulator is. Everything I make takes like, you know, natural fermentation. I know, it's amazing. People do God's work for those things. just don't know how. Well, I mean, the interesting thing is I never have access to really old, old meat. I'm cute. I'm curious about it. Like the, you know, I've cooked super old meat. Um, only occasionally, and you only get it from, like, weird people, and there was this guy in Chicago who used to sell, uh, that kind of meat, but I since found out that he, uh, basically, not only should he go to prison, he did go to prison for doing, like, illegal,
+
+[20:59] um, animal practices. So I don't buy from him anymore. Yeah, you know what I mean? But anyway, so, well, I can hook you up. I can find old meat for you. I have a big elk cunt coming up this spring that I'm looking to get like an old bull elk,
+
+[21:14] so if I get one. Are people worried with older elk now about chronic wasting or is that people not worry about that anymore? I haven't had anybody worry about it. in a long time. So, yeah. Nice. I mean, I'll shoot an old... See, I get cow tags, right? Every year, that's where you shoot the female count. I usually use those for my meat at home. And that's very often ethically thought they'd kill the cats, they're very young baby elk or a cow. And they like that because it's like the veal of it, and I've never been able to do that yet, to shoot like a 6 month old elk. I always shoot the mom elks. Now, from an ethic standpoint is that if you're shooting the young one, it's like, well, he had a bad shot anyway.
+
+[21:49] It's like he was going to die maybe anyway, so kill him now. I think ethically people are trying to justify. I don't know why. I try to get the most amount of meat out of animals that I kill, is that if you kill their mom, the calf's probably going to die too. So you just have to spend a lot of time, like making sure that the calf, you're about, excuse me, the cow that you're about to kill isn't about to, you know, doesn't have a calf.
+
+[22:10] And then you're feeling good about it. Right. Well, it also, like, I think people would be shocked. I looked at the numbers a long time ago, but in the east coast in hunting areas,
+
+[22:19] like the percentage of deer that deer now, because they don't have anything else here,
+
+[22:25] right? But the percentage of deer that are going to end up, you know, in a hunter's plate is extraordinarily high, right? I mean, like, I mean, like it's more than you'd think. Oh, here I would imagine. Yeah. I think it's a 3 day season and like 4000 elk or deer get killed in a day or something like that. It's like insane. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Speaking of hunting, so you have brought something. I did. I'm super happy about this I do a lot of bird hunting in Oregon. We talked about it lately, and I know that you wanted to get back into bird hunting at some point in your life. I've never gotten to do it. I've always wanted. You've never done it. No, I've always wanted to. Well, it's not true. In Italy once, in Italy, I went on a BS pheasant hunt. It was, it was, they're fake. fake. planted pheasants and bird dogs. Yeah, it's fake. I didn't feel so good about it. I ate the bird. It's delicious meat. Yeah, yeah. You're still going to shoot a gun on a bird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but, you know, it's not hunting, right? No, it's, it's, it's more, I think, it's more for training the dogs and then getting the rifle ready
+
+[23:23] to, or like your shotgun good at shooting. I utilize it once a year. Like right at the beginning, I try to tune my dogs up and... This dog in Italy was so stupid too. It's the worst. It was like, it was like at the very beginning of the season and we weren't like their real customers and so they were testing out like their new dog on us. And so Nastasia. People are going to like, this is how this works, though, people. They take and they just, they disorient the pheasant so that it doesn't immediately take off, right? And then they put it in a bush. You know what bush it's in, right? tell you where it's at. Well, in this scenario, they were shooting it for something. like, you know, and then and then they let go of the dog and the dog's just sitting there scratching its ear. And they're like, hey, Fido. You know, and they're like, yeah, go over your, yeah, and like, I don't know what they call dogs and, uh, it's when we were shooting a, uh, we were shooting a piece on uh,
+
+[24:18] ancient um, ancient cooking techniques, and they wanted us to actually go get the animals, even though it was Roman, even though the Romans actually would have raised their pheasants in captivity and just broken their necks and not, there wouldn't be all this, like, you know,
+
+[24:31] buckshot out of it. shotguns in Roman era. Not too many. You know what I mean? You know, and, you know, I doubt the average Roman was sitting there like, you know, hurling rocks at pheasants to try to
+
+[24:41] get. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, this is a sophisticated group of people. And they, you know, they had, you know, they raised pheasants. And, you know, they definitely, I'm sure the Romans, if they were going to train their dogs, would have done a better
+
+[24:52] job. Yeah. And so like, they started chucking things towards the bush to get the dog to look at the bush. That's horrible. It's so depressing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then finally, you know, we're sitting there and we're like, oh, and then it takes off. It was a good bird. Tasted good. Although I forget, you're going to have to, so what do you have here? Show me the bird you had you brought here. I got you a chucker. And this was a true wild Oregon chucker knot. So these, when you shoot these, they're up on the rimrock way above like the rivers, like the John Day. This one came off of the John Bay, and they're non-native to Oregon, but they're the most amazing game bird.
+
+[25:24] So they called, so they're invasive? They're not invasive. They planted them for they planted them for game birds, you know, 20 years, 30 years ago. And now they've just done amazing. So how do they taste relative to like, so the size here, they're bigger than a pigeon or squad. squab-ish size. They're squabish, slightly larger. They're about, you know, a little bit smaller than a good grouse or a rough grouse. But they are very plentiful and they're amazing. They live up in the sagebrush. And so they eat a lot of sage. And so their flavor picks up like that real wild sage rustler. Pass it over? Yep. But yeah, they're super fun and they're like one of the hardest game birds to shoot. Like, your dog will point them maybe sometimes a half a mile out and, you know, you'll get up on your dog and you'll know which direction they're going to fly and 20 to 30 of them are flush and you'll miss all of them. And then, you know, one out of 10, you'll probably hit. Okay, so I'm looking at this bird here. I'm terrible at plucking birds, by the way. I'm just terrible at it. time to start. Yeah, but we're not going to plug this right now, are we? it's on a game bird, right? So I know like, I know like on, like, I've done pheasant, not just in that time in Italy, but in France, you know, you go to France and you
+
+[26:32] can buy pheasant on the, you know, on the feather or whatever they call it, feathered in the, you know, GBA
+
+[26:38] shops. You know what I mean? And you go there. And once those feathers set, man, fucking is a nightmare. Is this going to be a similar situation? You know, Chucker, like those desert birds, chucker, quail, grouse, and all the ones that have more fat living a burlier from hot to cold climate are much easier to pluck than pheasants.
+
+[26:55] Pheasants are the most difficult bird to pluck in the whole world. Very, like, they're just horrible. ruined the skin. I ruined the skin. Yeah, depending on how that one looks like we shot it pretty good, so I don't see many bullet holes in it. Where is it shot? It looks like it's like in the neck and the wing right there. And that could have been a runner. I could have winged it, which is ideal. And then the dog grabs it and brings it to you. But yeah, you know. Now, do you don't hang these things until they start stinking? You're not one of those kind of guys. This is why I brought you this one. I'm not. I'm usually not, but I was hunting with this guy and we had like one of those great days where we each got like our limit, which is 15 of those birds in a day. It was an amazing, amazing day. And he told me that he enjoys the flavor of freezing them whole with the guts in them. So that's what we got here. I have 3 of them that I have. It's too cool in my life. And there's a so all like, this is how he does it and he loves the flavor more. And he's like, oh, an epic hunter and he cooks really, really well. So he doesn't dress it out. doesn't dress it. No, he'll he will he'll just freeze it all like this. Let the flavors develop in his freezer. Then he plucks it and then draws all the guts out, and then he roasts it or cooks it further. So he does draw it before he before he cooks it. Yeah. before he cooks. Yeah, do that for sure. So it's not like, it's not like, uh, like a, remember that, remember that, uh, woodcock we had? Oh, that people hang with the guts in? Oh my god. It was the most disgusting. I liked it. I liked eating it, but for Nastasia watching her face was the most display. The way he ate it. This stuff was flying on my face, too. disgusting. So when you're hunting a small bird, right? The flavor probably changes a lot depending on what you puncture, right? Yeah, well, the biggest flavor I always say about like the grouse is the best, you know, the grouse live in the forest. The sagebrush, excuse me, so like, you know, chuckers and other desert, Hungarian partridge live in the sage, they pretty much have one diet. But a grouse, like a mountain grouse in the spring, eats berries, and then once it gets into cloater in the fall, it eats like rose hip and gooseberry. And then in the midwinter, it eats pine. Like pure pine lives up pine in Juniper berries. And that's the biggest flavor difference because you can see it when you open up that bird, you open up its crop right here. You'll see what it's been eating. So this one should be full of sage and seed. What do you do? You cut here and clean out, and then you do the triangle by the butt and rip the stuff out, just like a smaller version of a chicken. absolutely. 100% exactly. just like that. Beautiful. All right. We'll post some pictures. It looks like you got clipped on the back a little bit. There it goes. Yeah, maybe that's where it was at. But, you know, then again, I haven't ever. I've never frozen a full bird and ate it myself, so it'll be... And
+
+[29:28] luckily, this is, you know, a serving size for one. So my kids are different vegetarian. Don't have to worry about it. Well, thanks so much. Of course, yeah. This is awesome. I've never been, no one's ever brought a whole bird on the feather to cooking issues before. So, uh, I guess we should answer some high tech. Dave, we got a call? Yeah, as many as we got. We got some caller. You on the air. do you got? Hi, Dave, this is Colton from Vale, Colorado. How you doing? Doing well. are you guys? Okay, so 1st of all, big fan of the show and big fan of Liquid Intelligence. I actually use that book a lot more in the kitchen than I do for cocktails, but anyway, great book. Thank you. So, I got a couple questions. First one is on Ultra tech. Okay. Why are you using text and not spurs, by the way? Why are you using text and not spurse? Um, it's just what? we have at the restaurant I work at? right, go ahead. But anyway, um, so we make a spinach tray at the restaurant and we've been having trouble keeping it green for more than a day. Um, and one of my chefs said that what he usually does and what usually works
+
+[30:45] for, stuff like that is pureeing the spinach, the blanched and shock spinach with a little bit of ascorbic acid, um, ultra text and a touch of like some neutral cooking
+
+[30:55] oil. Um, but I don't, after all the research that I've done, I can't find a reason why that would work.
+
+[31:02] Do you have any thoughts on that, any advice? No, I don't. I'll say this. So Ultra Techs for by the way, I would switch to Spurse, but like
+
+[31:12] Ultra Techs is a pre-cooked starch, right? So, you know, so what it has the ability to do that a regular starch wouldn't have the ability to do is absorb liquid.
+
+[31:27] So basically what you're doing is just, um, you're just sequestering some of the liquid in with the starch.
+
+[31:35] So maybe that's helping you out a little bit. It's also going to help run out on the puree. So I don't know if it's going to help with the greening, but it's going to help with that gross runoff that spinach puree
+
+[31:47] has. You know what I'm talking about? You all know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah, that's why you squeeze the ever-loving hell out of it. Uh, and that and that squeeze water also is an ugly color typically in my... experience. Um, right. The reason I switched to spurse is, um, spurse is what's called, it's the same product as, uh, as ultra text, but it's pre-agglomerated. So it's like, uh, it looks more like, uh, it looks more like, uh, like Bisquick or something. It dissolves easier. Not that you're going to have that much problem with clumping in spinach puree, but if you were to throw it in pure water, it would. Ascorbic acid is going to prevent any enzymatic action, but the thing you have to worry about with acids is too much
+
+[32:34] acid and you'll start destabilizing the chlorophyll. Uh, but I don't know, I don't know, uh, last, you got any good keeping spinach puree
+
+[32:43] tricks, old school? I just, yeah, I pure it in a blender to keep it really, really cold with ice. Yeah. so I just squeeze it. like if I do a spinach puree. Just blanch it. instantly shock it, squeeze the hell out of the water, add the cook shallots, puree it, just barely in a
+
+[32:58] vitamix and then put it instantly on ice. Yeah, just keeping it cold. I think the key, for me, the key is squeezing. Get the water out. Yeah. Like, I'm talking like, do you do the towel thing? You got it, because it's turned to water and run it, yeah. Yeah, for those of you who don't know what we're talking about. You put it in the towel and then you twist the towel and twist it and twist it. Twist it, twist it. Yeah, yeah. And it just, you know, all that liquid comes out. Yeah, so I don't know. Maybe, like, do you get a lot of, uh, if she squeeze the hell out of it, you're still getting a lot of
+
+[33:27] cinereas, a lot of liquid coming out of it? Uh, no, it's pretty, sometimes you can squeeze it so hard at least for the plunder. you have to add a little bit of water. So, but you find that your chef's recipe is working for you or not working for
+
+[33:39] you? You just want to know the mechanism. Yeah, I mean, I just kind of wanted to prove him right or prove him wrong. I mean, the best way to prove the best way to prove something right or something wrong is offline, at home, make it a different way. Keep it for however long and bring it in and be like, hey, chef, I made this. What do you think? And then see what they see what they say. I mean, the worst way to do it is to change the way it's done on the line. That's the absolute worst thing you can do. Go time and you're like, oh, right. Yeah, but like, you know, any, I'm just going to go ahead and say, say, I'm going to say this and see Elias what you think, is that if you do something on your own time with your own product and it's good and you bring it in and your chef doesn't have,
+
+[34:24] doesn't won't respect that and take a look at it, maybe you should be working for a different chef.
+
+[34:28] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's got to be a creative conglomerate. Yeah, it was like fun. I love when anybody comes in. I mean, I make, what, £7000 of sausage a day, and I still listen to people salami about the technique that I use.
+
+[34:40] If they have an idea of how to make it more uniform, let's talk. Right. Especially if someone proves it, like, you know, I'll take any dogma that I'm running down for years,
+
+[34:47] you show me that there's a better way. I will adopt it immediately. Absolutely. And I think that's a sign of, I mean, in any field. That's a sign of intelligence. You know what I mean? I think it's, you know, it becomes problematic when if someone goes so hard on dogma, especially like in print and on TV,
+
+[35:06] it becomes hard for them to change, but that's when you, you could tell if someone's a real, like, you know, if they're really hardcore about what they do and not just about being who they
+
+[35:16] are. You know what I mean? then they'll they'll change. So anyway, do some experiments and shoot us back and say, you know, tell us what you find out. Dave, you got any spinach freaks on the chat room? Let me check and get back to you. Speaking of, like, tips and tricks, I, I, we had a walnut question in a couple of weeks ago about how to get easily get the skin, the tannic skin off of a
+
+[35:39] walnut. Now you can buy non-tannic walnuts. I don't know where they get. Harold McGee gets good ones. I haven't spoken to him yet. Whether he has any tips, but I said I was going to talk to a guy whose grandpa is a walnut farmer, but it turns out he doesn't grow walnuts. He only grows almonds or almonds, as he calls them. Amons. Amons. And it's unfortunate because he would have had this guy, like, you know, 60 years ago was in an airplane accident. He was flying. He lost his leg and one eye. Yeah, he's like still like an almond farmer. So I figured if anyone knew how to do it, but, you know, it's easy to get this, not easy. It's a pain in the butt, but it's technically easy to get the skins off of an almond,
+
+[36:15] but walnuts. I don't know. Can you blanch a walnut? Yeah, blanch them. do the towel rub? Yeah, blanch them, then re-roast them, and then chop them, and then do the sea, and try to get the skim through the, of course, sea, is the way I do it, and it's still not like a perfectly... and you can't get the I don't forget whether this person wanted whole halves. I mean, that's the good thing about an almond is you can get the skin off of it and still have it be in beautiful
+
+[36:38] shade. You know what I mean? But the good thing about nuts that I think people, as long as you don't soak the bejesus out of them,
+
+[36:45] such that you're actually leeching a bunch of flavor out of them, they can take a good number of like, get it wet, get it dry, get it wet, get it dry. I mean, they're pretty, you know what I mean? Especially, you just trade that off with a wallet. Like, if you hate how a tannic arm, you know, or a walnut does your tongue and makes it all fucked up. Blanch it for a second, done roasted, at least you'll get all that bitters out of the tanner. Right, because all that stuff is A on the outside and B water soluble. That's a good tip right there. Look at that. For a sausage maker, I know weigh around a knot. Just do good. Just do it. Well, and so do you do that today? Do you do the walut and sausage thing? I do it in pate. like once or twice a year. Yeah, like I'll make a walnut pate, for sure, when the cello and whatnot. I think they're delicious, especially with game birds. When you serve a pate. Like, what do you think about, remember, like, man, 5 or 6 years ago, or maybe even longer now, 10 years ago,
+
+[37:32] like, the big thing, not on pate, was go to foie gras straight, right? The big chunk. Now, I have to say, are you a hot or cold? If you could choose only one, would you choose hot or cold? foie gras? Yeah. That's a tough one, huh? I'm gonna go cold because I can have it in more places. 99 out of 100 chefs, do that, but I just love hot so much. Yeah. anyway, what about you, Stas? Cold, Samantha? Like cold, too. 99 out of 100. I'm like, I actually really like the old school, like, just quick seer, like,
+
+[38:01] lightly warm in the middle, like, maybe some, like, you know, maybe some, you know. Yeah, crunchy salt, or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, anyway. So, you want to take cook, Rick? One second. So, like, one thing that makes me upset. It's like when you don't serve the, when you don't serve it with any form of, like no no acidic accompaniment and no crunchy starch. I need an acidic accompaniment, and I need a crunchy starch. pate as well. Like, I want give me some sort of bread. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like too. But like, have you seen, have you noticed this where, like, someone will give you a big plate of, of, like, either pate or something? And then nothing, nothing to break up the unctuousness. Absolutely, no, yeah. You got to have crunchy bread or good bread or baguette for a pate. An old school French chef. shall remain nameless. It was not Alan Sayak. Uh, he, I once, he, they used to do a country pate at the French Culinary Institute. I like country pate is like the next guy, and they would put the little cornichon, right? Which I kind of like corny shell. going to set to go say, I'm going to say, I kind of like corny shell. They're not my favorite pickle. I mean, the texture is bad, right? Cornish on. The texture is bad. They're a good crunch, but there's better crunches out there. Much better crunches. I mean, the cucumber didn't want to be murdered at that age. It wanted to grow bigger. Yeah, want to be more of a pickle. It's like, it's like the baby corn is garbage. I mean, like, I like... Yeah, I like the way they look kind of like theoretic, but it's garbage. a garbage product. It's a garbage product. Yeah, it's garbage product. Uh, so the, what do you think, stars? You hate that stuff, right? Hey, baby corn. So, Samantha? agree. Dave? Yeah, not a fan. Yeah, okay. Stop putting those things in cans. First of all, like, what do they where do they get? Maybe like... Maybe a really good baby corn is delicious, but I've never had that. I ripped one right off of a stalk once, and I was like, this is garbage. I boiled it. I was like, anyway, but so that's not the point. That's not the point. So I was like, hey, chef, you know what would be good? And he starts with bread because, come on, he's old school French guy. I was like, I really like, like, a coarse gray mustard with my country pate. He's like, American. And walked away. That's what he said. I was like what? Mustard's good. You just gotta, you always have to remember, you just got to make people happy. If they wanted freaking ketchup on it, and that's the way that they enjoyed my pate, more to you. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to touch the stuff. But I mean, like, you know, like, don't you think that, don't you think that a coarse grained mustard is a better acidic slash pungent accompaniment to a country pate than a freaking corny show, no matter how
+
+[40:33] furnish it is? Absolutely. A whole grain mustard on every charcuterie board that I sell at every one of my places, no matter what. Thank you. It's perfect. It goes with everything. It's bright. It tastes good. All right, we'll take a break. We'll come back with more live Cairo, more cooking issues.
+
+[40:55] This episode is brought to you by Jules, the immersion circulator for
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+[41:01] sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook. Maybe you already know that sous vide is the best way to get a kick-ass juicy steak. And with Jewel, a new sous vide tool from chest steps, you can do so much more. Smoky tender ribs, homemade yogurt, creme brulee, bright, crunchy pickles, vibrant purees, even smooth creamy ice cream, all perfectly cooked every time.
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+[42:02] Trooper, premium British Beer, handcrafted by Robinson's Brewery in Cheshire, England, and created by Iron Maiden. That's what we're going to be having with our lunch date. I mean, like, Nastasi, where did this beer come from? I have no idea. He just brought it. It was like, this is your tape. All right, so I'll give you some props if you can tell me why Iron Maiden is a particularly for someone like me, an important metal band. Bass? Why? I don't know. Man played with 3 fingers. He only had 3 things? No, he played with, in other words, like, the typical bass player plays with 2 fingers, like,
+
+[42:35] thumb, thumb. He was like, what's
+
+[42:39] wrong with you? You know what I mean? What are you doing all day not knowing that? What are you doing? Fail. Dave, what do you think about it? As a music guy. What are your thoughts? You ever listen to that stuff? They're great, yeah. Do you, like, you know, like those the original t-shirts with, what's his name? Eddie, right? Like, they're like fantastically expensive now. Yeah, I'm not surprised. There's like a weird vintage rock tea market. I know. It's crazy. You know, those things were unconscionably expensive at the time they were new. They should go way down in value. That should be the that should be the purchase that you get slapped for later and you're like, I can't believe I spent $40 on that concert
+
+[43:13] t-shirt. now you're sitting pretty. Now you're sitting pretty. It's like old programs. It's like I have the original 77 Star Wars program and apparently that's a worth something. Anyways. spend 40 bucks for that program? No, I spent like, I think it might have came with the ticket. There you go. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I was a little young. I don't know. Back then, your parents just paid for crap and you didn't know, you know what I mean? So Dave, you want me to do this business before we get back into real stuff? Yes, please. This is what we call people the mid-roll ad, even though it's coming at the end of this show. It's this is the midroll ad. I have no control over that, but you do. Ooh, are we getting bad? getting back into the states. Testy day. Modernist pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans just like you. Janie, Chris, and the modernist pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen.
+
+[44:03] Professional chef, home cooked food enthusiasts no matter what your skill or experience. Modernist pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so you can spend less time hunting and gathering, although you would hate that. Yeah, she doesn't want to hunt together. Right. And more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernistpantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call modernist pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy. Not really new anymore, Dave. It's like, you know, anyway. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips and tricks. And don't forget to follow modernist pantry on social media to keep up with what's new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools.
+
+[44:43] Great, nailed it again. Nailed it. nailed it. All right, let's do it. we got any more callers? Let's do it. We're on the air. Hey, Dave, how was it going? Jason from Atlanta. How you doing? How's Atlanta? I'm doing well. I hear it's like 8000000 degrees down there. Yeah. You like coming by your hotland name properly now? Yeah, people actually live in Atlanta that actually call it Hot Atlanta. just the outsiders. Well, I am, in fact, an outsider. Do you not listen to Ludacris if you're actually from Atlanta or do you do that? Oh, there you go. Okay. All right. All right. So what's up? about the question about fish sauce. So I'm looking to make my own fish sauce. Um, and I was wondering if there's a reason why traditionally, uh, orderly fish are
+
+[45:23] used anchovies and sardines and would it still work, uh, with pretty much any other kind of fish, maybe even
+
+[45:29] lake fish, perch, trout, um, anything, is there a limitation as to what fish you should and shouldn't use?
+
+[45:38] Okay, so I'm going to weigh in for a 2nd. I'm sure Elias has some stuff to say about this, you know, with the Greekness will come in at a certain
+
+[45:45] point. So, uh, here's the thing. Like, typically fish sauce is made with, like, fish that you gather kind of in abundance and you want cooking as a whole, kind of a fish, and so, like, you gather lots of these oily fish, like, you get lots of mackerel. You get lots of sardines. You get lots of anchovies. And so I think that's like one of the reasons, but they're classic ones that are made with
+
+[46:08] squid and that's not oily made with the guts. You get ones that are made. I mean, typically, you know, most traditional recipes are built around a less waste
+
+[46:18] phenomenon. And so like anything that you would like stake out or cook, you wouldn't turn into a fish sauce. Um, you know, and and there are some fish sauces, like the famous, uh, what, Garum, which is the Roman one changed a lot, depending on what grade you were buying and what era of the Roman Empire you're dealing
+
+[46:36] with. But like one of the high grades at a certain time was all guts. So it's just, you know, mackerel guts. Do you got any experience making, do you ever make fish sauce? I've never made fish sauce. You should make it. stuff's delicious. Totally. Delicious. Yeah, I love it, so I should make it. I can't believe I've made it. Yeah. So the bottom line is, yes, it should work with pretty much any fish. Yes, I would say it would work with a lot of fish. There are some people who believe, and I've never done the test that the smaller fish have a good gut to meat
+
+[47:05] ratio and that it's the it's the guts that are like kickstarting all of that like stuff that's going on. I've heard people say that. Do I have any experience? I don't. You know? Okay. And any any idea of using, um, I guess more specifically to the
+
+[47:24] sheri, uh, squid-based fish sauce, using frozen squid, uh, would be a problem. I think it should not be a problem, but most of the, most of the squid that I buy that's frozen is cleaned
+
+[47:37] already. Do you have a source of... Yeah. I mean, like, the best thing to do is if you get squid is, like, clean them, scrape all the cleaning stuff into the bucket to make your fish
+
+[47:48] sauce, and then, you know, do your do your whatever you're doing with it. Are you a fan, Elias, of turning the squid inside out before you stuff it, where you take the, you take the mantle and you flip it inside out so that when it cooks, it like squeezes into the
+
+[48:01] stuffing. I've never done that. I stuff a lot of squid. I always pipe it into the squid. Right. Well, they sold French guy. Uh, he used to, like, before he, he would do that, but before he would do it, he would turn it inside out and he'd say he would get a tighter... Yeah. Like I went to try that. Yeah, give a shit. let me know It's a Chef Didier. We used to add, I forget his last name. French guy. Anyway, yeah, but listen, let us know what's going on. I'll give the fish also try using some fish I can catch. And by the way, I'm with you on the foie gras, hot all the way. There you go. Someone someone's got to agree with me at some point. All right, thanks. Let's know how the fish sauce goes. How do you start the fermentation on a fish sauce? It's freaking salt. Just salt. Just leave it in there. No mother, nothing. just ferments on its own. Naturally, it gets crazy. I mean, that's I mean, look, we started making it once for the same thing I was talking about. We were in Italy. We were doing the Roman thing. And we just hacked them up and then like put salt in. Uh, and now, uh, but I've never like made it through from beginning to end, but there's a bunch of people now who have done it and made some really high kind of
+
+[49:04] grade, uh, high grade fish sauce. I love fish sauce. You know what I mean? fish sauces, and I'm going to be using a lot more of it now because the kids are pescatarian now. See how long this lasts, right? Take the bird. Maybe they'll want some bird. I'm going to eat the whole bird. But kids aren't, you know what? Here's the thing. Like, I feel that like, if you make that choice, I'm like, hey, you made that choice. That's your choice. I'm a vegetarian for a while for a skateboard. My skateboard broke in Salt Lake and I didn't have any money. And my bud, I ate so much meat being Greek and they're like, if you go a week without eating
+
+[49:35] meat will buy a skateboard. And so I like took the bet and then I got a girlfriend who was vegetarian in that week and I was vegetarian for like 3 months. Wow. It's pretty impressive. Wow. So, and then as soon as that relationship ended, back to the
+
+[49:49] meat, was it part of the, was that part of the reason the relationship ended or no? No, she just didn't like me anymore. Wow. Well, because you were spending too much time skateboarding. Exactly. So young. So what's that dish? What's that Greek dish? They spit roast lamb intestines where you wrap all the intestines around the spit, and then you like cook it like a big party food. What that called again? Yeah, I don't know what it's called, but yeah, it's delicious. Absolutely ever make that stuff? Yeah, well, I make it with goat. Yeah, where we restuff the, we take out the goat carcass, we debone it, then we
+
+[50:17] rest, we chop up the intestines with the liver, the heart, and the kidney, quickly saute, season that, and then put it inside of the wrapped goat, and then fire, roast the whole thing. That's delicious. Oh, here's a question for a couple questions. One, I noticed in your book, I noticed Nastasia notices. I think I bookmarked the page. Your porchetta is not what we would call a porchetta. It's more of like a whole... That's what I call a porchetta. It looked good. You see that stuff? It's like, so, you know, I'm obsessed with this Colombian dish, but instead of a meat stuffing, it's meat and rice
+
+[50:46] stuffing. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. Crispy, you know, crispy pork skin plus anything, basically. Yeah, and that's the big challenge about a porchetta is like anybody could stuff a pork, but getting the skin perfectly crisped up and there's a 1000000 tricks to that.
+
+[51:00] Oh, are you, are you, what are you a believer? you a believer? Do you baking soda it? Do you prick it? I prick it and then blanch it. So you do the branch. and then throw hot water over it. Ladle blanch. Pour over. Not a dip. Pour over. Pour over. If I had a pot big enough I would love to dip it. But nothing in the water. Nothing in the water. And then I salt the shit out of it and then leave it overnight in salt and then start with a low temperature. And then when it gets to 90 degrees, I crank my oven all the way up until it's just about on
+
+[51:25] fire, and then that turns into it. It's a little to run it. And it does the pops up and it gets all the holes and all the grease cooks the skin and it's crunchy and then you can just slice it and
+
+[51:34] it's I love it. Yeah. Hey Dave, we got to go before we do, chat room is demanding an update on the spins all that you promised. We have this. We have the update. Nastasia is gonna send it out. Uh, you know, we, uh, I'm sending, uh, we have the picture of the 1st off tooling. This is the centerfuge that I'm working on. So we have the a video of it of the 1st off tooling one running, the one that we took to Scotland, and we're going to send that out, and then we'll probably send out a more substantive one next week, and then after I get back from
+
+[52:06] China, we will send out another one. But, you know, that's probably the ones we're going to definitely send out before the ship date happens. All right, so we didn't get to, uh, we had a question on, uh, adding silver powder to a cocktail. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea. Do you know that, you ever, you know, collodial silver, you guys heard of collodial silver? So people take collodial silver, and this is not the same thing, but
+
+[52:30] they some people think it has a health thing, but if you drink too much of it, you turn blue permanently. Like the silver gets into your skin. Generally not a good look. Bruised. Uh, you know, you look like, you remember in Appalachia there where these, uh, there was this group of people that, uh, didn't ha,
+
+[52:47] that like turned, they were blue naturally, like they had some sort of like genetic thing. So you look, you end up looking kind of like that, which is kind of kind of messed up. Yeah. All right, Wes, next week I'll talk to you about deep fryers and what deep fryer I use and how to choose a deep fryer and all that good
+
+[53:02] stuff. You know, choose a deep fryer wisely. Someday, maybe I should invent, someone wanted me to invent, like, work on a new oven after this bins all, but I think like a really good, I not going to do this for, but a really good deep fryer that, like a regular person could use in your house. Because like real deep fryer is like so much better
+
+[53:21] than, than the one you get in your house. tried anyone. Yeah. Make like the home version of a broaster, like in the west coast, we have those like deep fried chicken places where it's a pressure deep fryer and you, you know, you cook the hood and throw the chicken in. Yeah, I met the guy. I think did he die? He's still alive. Anyway, speaking of diet, the guy who invented G.I. Joe died, we could talk more about that later. Uh, anything else next week, we'll talk about next week. Oh, next week we have Richard Blaze coming on. So any sort of Richard Blaze questions you have, you can dial in. Thanks for coming. Thanks, guys. Thanks so much for showing up I had a good time. Cooking issues.
+
+[54:00] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network. Food radio supported by you, for our freshest content, and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at heritage underscore radio. HeritageRadio Network is a nonprofit organization. Driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place. And we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community? Rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
+
+[55:05] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space, or a pro managing multiple projects, discover a new way to shop at Ferguson
+
+[55:14] Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our showrooms, where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
+
+[55:29] Bring your vision to Ferguson home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornue or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com.
\ No newline at end of file
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+[0:00] Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects,
+
+[0:04] discover a new way to shop at Ferguson Home, where great ideas become stunning spaces. Visit fergusonhome.com to explore the best selection of bath, kitchen, and lighting products, or book an appointment at one of our
+
+[0:15] showrooms, where you can experience products firsthand and get personalized expert support every step of the way.
+
+[0:20] Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like La Cornew or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. Today's show is being brought to you by Bob's Redmill, believers in Good Food for All. Learn more at bobsredmill.com slash podcast. You're listening to Heritage radio network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the
+
+[0:55] battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritageradionetwork.org.
+
+[1:07] Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly
+
+[1:16] 12, to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join, as usual, with Nastasia, the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? We got Dave in the booth, Dave. Today we got special guest plus entourage. Plus entourage, Richard Blaze. It's glaze. I like the soft golf clap. That's usually the applause level I get. I also thought I thought I was gonna be like the dynamic one, but that open is just... It's amazing. It's like, it's like literally like, I could come in here off of a bike or like, you know, you
+
+[1:49] could, nostalgia could wake me up from asleep and, yeah, my kids make me do it every once in a while. You crushed it. Like, I don't know if I can even like go on from that point. Well, like I say, from here on, it's all, you know, as Trump would say, low energy, Dave. So, uh, wait, we got, so let's, uh, let's just... That was my trombone, by the way. Yeah, nice. No, you play beautiful, you play beautifully. Thank you. You got to go bass trombone. The bass trombone is not a used enough instrument. It's not. You know, I'm more of a banjo ukulele guy, though. We're getting right into like, I tried to learn banjo once, failed miserably. Yeah, I never could figure it out. And I hear the ukulele is really where you need to go if you're learning a stringed instrument. You mean because it's got one last string, I think. Yeah, well, and it's all, it's tuned to an open chord. Right. So you can just, I mean, that's why Tiny Tim, not a musical genius, was able to cut some popular records, you know, on the
+
+[2:43] ukulele. This is true. But, you know, there is a ukulele every couple of years or every couple of decades, I guess, at this point in my life. I feel there's a ukulele resurgence. You know? Maybe that I fell into that. Maybe that it was. I just felt it in the air. Like, I remember as a small child. I remember Tiny Tim. You know, that crazy. yeah. Nastasia's probably caught him just wrong. doesn't remember him at all. Just wrong. Got married on Johnny Carson, I believe. Oh really? I think so. I don't think it lasted. I thought he was a wrestler. No, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be a good name for a wrestler. If he was massive. Yeah, what do you think about bagpipes? I trying to learn the backpipes Well, I can't believe you just said that. Because I was going to ask you, bagpipes or didgeridoo? Oh, bagpipes. bagpipes. Oh, here's why. Here's why. Bagpipes, bagpipes are not the kind of instrument that you ever want to hear recorded.
+
+[3:33] It like needs to be live. It is a martial instrument. It's meant to, like, scramble eggs the inside of your body. You know what I mean? It's portable, loud as, you know, loud as hell. You know. Sometimes, just for inspiration, if I'm on a long run, I will queue up like the Scottish March. Really? I queue up long way to the top if you want to rock and roll. It's like Braveheart. You know, it's like for me. Braveheart was a good movie. Yeah, I don't remember much of it, but I remember I felt inspired by it. So I, do we have ever said this on Anastasia? Like, I always thought it was like a missed. So the end of Braveheart. So, uh, Mel Gibson is Wallace, right? And so at the end of it, you know, he's a relative, he's not like a noble person. He's like a knight, whatever, relatively common or he's being executed at the end because he's given up, right? And so at the end, they're cutting his nuts off. And right before they cut his nuts off. He goes, freedom like that. And I always thought, what a great like ad campaign they could have done if he had just said anything else. Pepsi! That is the last thing. There you go. Wow, well done. Wow, see? The memory. I haven't seen this since it came out. There you go. So who else we got in the room? Who'd you bring with you? Let's say hello to the entourage in case I pepper them with questions or ask them what they like to eat. Oh, I'll go around the room. Meredith Sidman. Publicist. extraordinaire. Yeah? Any relation to Josh Sigman from Westchester, New York? No, but I'm from West. All right. Nice. All right. Leah. Publicist extraordinaire. Yeah? See, this is like big flak attack we got going on. I'm rolling deep because it's Brooklyn and I felt like to kind of up my street cred. I needed to come in with a big crew. Got to roll heavy. Got it real heavy. And then we just met. Joyce. Joyce. Nice. Also extraordinaire. I mean we should not leave that out. I just want to make sure everyone's extraordinary. He just doesn't think so much of you, Joyce. So the reason you're over here in our fine area in Brooklyn is you got a new book coming out in like, is it this month or next month? today. No way. This is the launch? Yeah, like this is my 1st appearance. No, I thought you were on the Today Show. Okay, I was on the Today's show. This is my first audio appearance. First audio appearance? How was the Today show? How was that like? It was amazing. You know, a couple years ago, I spilled liquid nitrogen on Kathy Lee's feet and was banned from the Today's Show for 3 years. Really? Yeah, she's kidding. They were amazing, though. They had some Pinot Grigio working and we did a little snap piece salad. Oh, she likes she likes snap peas. She likes Pinot Grigia. You know she likes the Pinot Grigio. It was amazing. She had it. they were they were both stunning. Yeah, it was actually a really good segment. I did that show once on Halloween, right after Hurricane Sandy, and I was just, I mean, everyone in New York was just so pissed off. that, that, like, they were like, that guy's never coming back to this show, right? And Nastasia has been waiting for years because she, like, literally, like,
+
+[6:28] loves holding Kathy Lee. Love them. I love them too. I'm an old school Regis and Kathy Lee guy back in the day. I love Regis. So my 1st segment I ever did with Regis, right? We're doing the segment we're outside. It's outside summer grilling with Regis, right? And he, the 1st time we ever met many years ago. And he's like, all right, so I'm here with Jeff and we're cooking. And he's like, keeps calling me Jeff, but in my head, because I have an ego, I'm like, he's calling me
+
+[6:53] Chef, just calling with it. And then, like, all the way through about 7 times at the end. And, nah, that was Jeff cooking up some amazing burgers. We'll see you in a minute. But it's Regis Philbin. So I'm like, that's okay. You can call me whatever he wants. Whatever the hell he wants. Exactly. whatever the hell he wants. Yeah, Regis, good old days. I used to watch all of the daytime TV. Like when I 1st got out of college. So they were on back then in the early 90s and I would do only these 3 things. I would watch daytime TV. I would bondo my Pontiac, and I would deep fry peppers in my little deep fryer. And that was it. Those are only 3 things I did before my job started. That's amazing My future wife was like, what the hell are you doing? Why am I with you? What is your problem? She had a real job. They were great peppers. They were great peppers. And the Pontiac was pretty sweet for a couple of years. Definitely the cheapest car I ever bought. Yeah, and now it's Seacrest, by the way. What do you mean? Ryan Seacrest? Really? I don't think it's called Kelly and Seagrass. Kelly and Ryan. So did she have a fight with what's his name? Something happened with Michael, right? Strahan, and then like all, it was a big, then they, you know, it's a big reality show of who's going to get it. I thought it was gonna be me. Were you in the running? No, I was not. In my mind, I was in the run. Have you been on their show? Was there chemistry okay? Oh, yeah, I thought the chemistry was great. amazing too, of course. So, but, like, so something happened. Something happened. Who knows? But now it's Ryan Seacrest. All right, so let's talk about your book for a minute. And by the way, call in all of your, as I say, call all of your blaze related questions in 2718-497-2128. That's 718-4972128. So this book is called So Good, and it's 100 Rest. Is it exactly 100 recipes? I did not care. You know what? This book was interesting because it was like, we have to, like, we were really serious about the 100 recipes. Like it was a metric that I had to hit. So my publishers here with me, so I have to, you know, but we had, it had to be 100 recipes. And I was like, do sauces count? Do condiments count? Whatever. No, really? No, so it's probably over 100 recipes. Don't tell that to Peterson with his sauce book, the recipe sauces don't count. That whole cookbook is sauces. It wouldn't even be a book. You couldn't even say there were any recipes. And that's one of the classic books. Oh, but then it would be a book with no recipes and that would be a really good marketing angle. Really? Do people want to buy books with no recipes? Probably not. All right. Probably not. Right. So now, I read the I read the introduction as well. And so the conceit here is that people can actually cook this stuff. I mean, the people who listen to this probably are better off, but you include, and I had this same issue when I did,
+
+[9:15] you know, my cocktail book, you include a lot of stuff that the average, like Jane and Joe person wouldn't necessarily, but you always give away out.
+
+[9:24] I have to. You have to. See, I know where you're going. right? So it's like the the one% Richard Blaze fans, who, by the way, are known as Blazians, just so we can
+
+[9:34] get... Blazians, fans of Richard Blaze. There's other definitions, but it's like the third, you know, there's 3 definitions
+
+[9:40] for it. It's the 3rd one. Applasians. Um, you know, some of them want to see, uh, they want to see the seers all. They want to see some liquid nitrogen. You got to give it to them. I look fast a little bit. for it. I'm for it. Like, here's the thing. It's like, I'm a believer in, you know, if this is the way you actually do
+
+[9:56] it and you're a real live human being, right? then just do it that way. And then tell people, look, I don't expect you to do it. And if you were at somebody else's house and you had to cook something, you wouldn't be like, there's no liquid nitrogen. freaking out of here. Exactly. You know what I mean? Exactly, right. Yeah. So there should be some like, so it is. So every once in a while, there's a tank of liquid nitrogen in my basement. When I say every once in a while. I mean, all the time. Where do you live? Where do you live? I live a little north of San Diego, Del Mar, California. I'm going to be in San Diego pretty soon. stop by the restaurant. Oh my gosh. I mean, my staff would freak out if you showed up. Yeah, I'll be there. I have to do some sort of like thing for a liquor company. You're mythical to my staff. Like, this, you know how much street, how much, like, cred, I'm
+
+[10:37] going to get in my kitchen because I'm on this show. This guy is good at this guy's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No,tering. It's not, it's not. I mean buttering it up coast to coast, both sides. But I'm also being honest. Yeah, I appreciate it. So, one thing I want to talk to you about, and I noticed in this, and it's something I think it doesn't get talked in this before we talk about the book in general or any questions. Um, you ever notice how chefs tend
+
+[11:03] to, like, find an ingredient that they fold into their pantry and it shows up as a highlight a
+
+[11:11] lot? I do this all the time, and it changes for me every couple of years. I change like what that highlight is. So I remember Nils Norin when I was at the FCI, you know, from, you know, Octavite and the FCI, for a while, it was like, what does this need? And we were all like, ketchup my niece. It was always, it was nice. Ketchup my niece. That what this needs. catch up my niece. And then like, you know, but there's always, but I noticed, and it's something I actually also love and use a lot.
+
+[11:35] You love the Calabrian chili oil. I do love the Calabrian chili oil. But with a lot of these things, isn't it like the moment you had or like the 1st moment that you had with that ingredient?
+
+[11:45] Yeah, and you're like, oh, and then so, well, like, full disclosure, a friend of mine's Calabrian, and whenever he goes over there, they bring back, like, you know, some of their family
+
+[11:54] stock. He's like, this time it's not as good as last time. Right. You know what I mean? like, yeah, so like I have learned to love it. Yeah, and you, the great thing with ingredients like that is, yeah, you associate them with like a particular place, a particular thing, but you get addicted to the certain kind of note, especially something like
+
+[12:10] that. So the way you describe it is a fruity heat. Right, but not sweet, but fruity heat. So it's like as an alternative to like the classic thing that all the, you know, most of the chefs been doing for the past five, 6 years, just hit it with sriracha, not peniche, but like, you know, the hot cock brand of sriracha. You know what I mean? But it's more that's more neutral and doesn't have the oils. How do you get in? How did you get into the collaborating chili oil? How long have you been into the? I mean, I think honestly, and this is, I just stumbled upon a jar of it. And it was one of it probably was Top Chef or something like that. Where on these shows, you get to carry like 10 secret ingredients that are always in your
+
+[12:48] case, and chili oil was always one of mine, a bottle of ghee was always one of mine. Uh, you know, uh, some fish, things that are like special to you that you know provide something
+
+[12:58] that something's going to need in a 48 episode competition.
+
+[13:03] Sometime I'm going to need something that brings some heat to the game, acidity to the game, some
+
+[13:07] salt, umami, whatever it is. So that's how I found it. And then it was just like, oh, I kind of also just like it in my fridge to like, you know, drizzle over like ranch
+
+[13:15] dressing because I'm also like, I like ranch dressing. Who doesn't? I'm just going to admit that right here. It doesn't. Like right, Roberta. I feel embarrassed a little bit. No, my son Dax, that's the 1st thing he learned how to make. He didn't want to learn to make anything else. Although, you know, he did make for Jen, my wife. He made breakfast in bed 1st time ever. I'm like, you're 12 years old about time. What do you make? What did he make? French toast, you know, classic, like, 1st time thing. so I'm sitting there in bed. I'm like, 1st of all, I would never tell him this and I don't think he lives. like, you know, I would prefer to eat at a table. But that's me, but like whatever. But it's no, my wife was floored. She loved it. Amazing. He did a great job, but having done this when I was a kid. I was like, what does the kitchen look like? Of course, right? And it was a disaster, I'm assuming. As bad as I thought. Nice. I agree with you with the eating and bed sort of thing. Unless you're at a hotel. Then like, who cares about the sheets? My favorite thing to do is a hotel, chicken wings, 2 waters. And then, like, bathroom towel to wipe down afterwards. massage it. That's a secret fact. Like, I'm revealing to you, like, we've connected. Well, let me talk to you about the chicken restaurant. Let's just go to it. Yeah, before I do that, I notice also like... Also, we're just having a lot of fun. Don't worry about the book Like, we're just kicking it. Yeah, no, but like, this is like, so like, here's something I do with people's books whenever I get someone's book, right? First thing you got to read. You got to read someone's introduction to see where they're coming from, where that particular book is coming from. Get a feel for where they want to go, right? You agree? Sure, yeah. Yeah. Then look at a couple of pictures they choose to have nothing to do with a particular recipe to kind of see where their head's at.
+
+[14:45] And so the one that I gravitated to is the picture of, like, just, I assume that whoever you were photographer was, like, that one, that one, that, but, but, cake tester, love
+
+[14:55] at the cake tester. You got the cake tester, which is like super, you know, I like, hey, was he reading glasses? Yeah, those are those are actual my glasses. Like, that's not even just a prop, chef. That's like those are my glasses. What about, like, you can't use that one very long. you know what it is? I'm obsessed with this sort of what's in my purse sort of stuff. Right, right. So it's like just throw it out there and take a picture of it. And then people are like, oh, wow. He rolls with a cake tester and a pasta cutter. The cake tester is like, that's the mark of, okay, yeah. okay You got the cake test room because that's how I test chicken. Is that how you test chicken? Yeah, anything like that. And boop, boop. But I feel like, is that is that still going strong or is that just, like, we're showing our age or what? Well, yes, we're showing our age probably a little bit. No, I kind of like it though, right? It's kind of one of those like, it's a, you know, putting the cake tester and what is that little
+
+[15:44] pin, chef? What do you have? Yeah, this is how we did it. Back in the old days, 10 years ago. Right. I mean, like, here's the other thing, too, is like a lot of people when they're writing stuff, they're like, go stick a thermometer in it. Would you ever stick a thermometer in something? Well, I will say that I'm doing a couple projects right now. that I'm, and this, this sort of like, you know this already, because you're amazing, right? But like, precision is an interesting thing. So like thermometers, I mean, I SUV'd things all the time, right? So that's a very precise way to measure something. Right, right. So yes, exactly. But I rely on it, and like my knowledge as a... Right, you don't need the K-tester, is what you're saying. Well, no, no, no. cake tester I use. So like when I'm deep frying or something like that, the cake tester I use, but I would never shove an instant
+
+[16:25] reed into my piece of chicken. Yeah, my, my, you know, my lip and the cake tester are good enough for me. Yeah, and I also, I do like, like, when you're, when you're a good cook and you can just touch something. Yeah, yeah. Or when you ask a chef, what is it done when it's done? Like my favorite answer ever, right? when is it finished? everyone says you can't know, but that's not true. can know. You can know. Like, even like something stupid like pancakes, right? If your flame is a little off, you touch the top of the pancake and you're like, is that pancake raw in the center or not? And you're just like, yeah. Is the French fry done? So much of it is observational. right? We're dorks also. I'm pretty sure. And what else here? Like, you got the coon recon. that's the that's the peeler to get. Although my wife bought me a Pokemon peeler once I still like. Yeah, I mean, listen, I also like it because it's like $49, right? Or probably $one.49 now. But I remember there was also something like, oh, it's the best peeler and it's also like not that expensive. Right, they get stolen all the time. You can get one now that's a glove with like a safety mechanism, right? I mean, I'm assuming. Yeah, I think so. You don't go to those type of shops. No, no, you know what? I used to shop all the time. They used to have a really inexpensive store called Lecter's where you could go just to buy beater stuff and then they went out of business and so now either you're going to a department store in New York, you're going to a department store or you have to go high end. And a lot of times, or a restaurant. A lot of times like there's no middle zone. There's not a middle zone. You know what I mean? Antique shops. Those are always fun. Oh, yeah. But, like, you know, I found some really good, like, old Sabatier knives there. Yeah, no, it's all good. I have a massive Sabatier knife that, in culinary school, I had to kill a turtle with. It's a really like dark story. So I was at the CIA, right? culinary school, just so everyone's clear. And I was the fish kitchen fellowship, which is very prestigious, just so we're all clear. like they give away one of those a year. And how many students you got? You got a lot of students. 75 students every 3 weeks. So like I lived in this fish kitchen, basically. And at some point, someone brought in a giant turtle. Like a, you know, someone out in the Hudson River brought in a turtle. And they were like, we need we need the fish kitchen fellowship guy to come down here. I didn't even have a name at that point. I was just the fish kitchen guy. And then they were like, you got to cut this turtle's head off. And it was kind of like, it's kind of a dark story. I'm kind of sad about it. I was just doing my job, just to be clear. Yeah. Turtle murderer. Turtle murderer. People are very uptight about turtle. You know the people are very uptight about turtles, right? I am too, but for a different reason. You know why? Quick little sidebar here. The book is being out my book, so good, is being outperformed by the
+
+[19:01] teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle pizza cook. for killing them. Like, right now, I have a little issue with them. One, because I don't think the Ninja Turtles wrote their own recipes. I'm sure of it. Second of all, I'm not a big fan of them as superheroes. Like, I'd take the X-Men. I take any superhero group against the Ninja Turtles any day. So after here I'm going to Times Square, I'm going to take down a couple ninjas. Yeah, also, the other thing about it is not really teenagers anymore. I mean that's the 80s. No, they don't get they never age. There are age. That's not right. teenager is an age. They should just say immature Ninja Turtles. Mutant. Immature mutant ninja turtles. Because an age is a thing. You don't get to like stay a teenager forever. You can act like a freaking teenager forever, but you can't actually be one forever. This is absurdity. It makes no sense. Write your own recipes, Donatello. Yeah, yeah. I never even, I was never a fan, so I don't even know which one's which, or, I mean, do they, what are they? They like anchovies? My girls actually like them. So, like, that's the other thing. Like, they like the turtles better than me. The old school turtles are these new, weird, like roided out turtles. They probably only know the new roided out turtles. Yeah, it's it's sad. It's garbage. garbage. But anyway, yeah, the knife and the turtle and everyone's upset now, but it was a long time ago and I was just doing my job. Okay, so apparently if a turtle goes into its shell, There's a couple of ways you can get the head out, right? stick to lure it out or the finger the other way, which would you need to do? I didn't know about the finger technique. So I'm glad I showed up today. I'll use that in the future. Yeah, the head pops out. So it was a broomstick handle. Yeah, and it bit on it and you chopped it off? Yeah, strong. this is a disgusting story. I'm sorry. And then, so, like, you do it, like, it's part of my fellowship. So I'm learning how to butcher this turtle and like, that's my, like, I'm learning as a shot. Which is weird because not a fish. Not a fish. Not a fish. But who are you going to call? The meat. I mean, I guess you could have called the meat butcher. Right. Well that's why like, yeah, rabbits are handled by the poultry person, which you said tastes like chicken in the book. I noticed. I noticed that, but like not a poultry. rodent. Not a poultry. No, right, exactly. You know I mean? The scary thing was that turtle haunted me for like days because in the
+
+[21:09] walk in, it was still moving for days after. Well, there's slow metabolism. They just don't. Yeah, they don't mean, it doesn't know it's dead yet. The feet don't know it's dead yet. Every publicist in this room is freaking out right now. We should just be really hold on. has gone to its dark place. Let me mention something to all of you PR folks. anyone out there in listening land. Almost every piece of meat you've ever eaten. I'd venture to say every piece of meat that you've ever eaten, was it one point an animal? And turtles, while you might like them, while you should not take turtles that are improperly taken from the wild, because they take a long time to replenish, and you can crash supplies, and so you should not take wild claw
+
+[21:48] turtles unless you, I guess, are allowed to in a specific place. All of this is true. And I think they're cool. They are not smart. They are not the smartest of animals. Here's a, here's something that I judge. So if you eat beef, you shouldn't worry about killing a turtle. turtles don't have, there they, now there's some argument about this. One of the things I take is, does an animal have a sense of play, literally, sense of play? Can it play, right? Does it do things other than...? Avoid things that it hates and you know get food and sleep, right? Turtles pretty much no play. Yeah, no play. There are some, the birds, obviously. and there are other reptiles that can play. Monitor lizards are in the reptile family, like can get to that level where they have those kind of interactions. But if you don't have a sense of play, pretty much I don't feel that bad about it. So that is your note to the publicists in the room, correct? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, but the thing is, people nowadays, they get so hyped up about,
+
+[22:49] you know, no one wants to, because we're so separated from the food that we eat. You're right. Yeah. You know, how did taste? Um, you know, we made like a traditional, like, uh, you know, turtle soup with sherry
+
+[23:02] and, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Was it worth it? I mean, you know, I just do my job as student. I was a student. I wanna be clear. Very rarely, with the exception of fish and crustaceans. Like, the work of killing something makes the food to me not as much fun. I don't know something about it. I just, me personally. It does give you the gravit. Every cook does need to know all the things you said, like, hey, this thing was alive and you need to respect it and you need to eat it and you need to use all of it, right?
+
+[23:29] Um, but, like, I don't, yeah, like frogs. Do you like frog? I'm not a big fan of frogs. But there was a point in my career. I was like, ooh, we got to do a frog dish. Yeah, these frogs. I really don't like the way that they're killed where you buy them. You know what I mean? Like, um, but again, no sense of play. shouldn't worry about it too much. But it's still just bad form. You know the way they kill frogs, right? Dad, tell it, Dave. I don't. So I'm just, by the way, so if you go to, at least this is in New York City, if you go to New York City, Chinatown to buy frogs, which is where you get them
+
+[23:57] here. There's a trash barrel full of live frogs where they're just basically crushing
+
+[24:04] themselves. And, you know, we're talking about how big is that stuff? It's like 3.5 inches? For somebody about that size. And the guy, assuming it's a guy, I've only ever had guys. I don't want to, you know, could be anyone, right? Grabs the frog's rear legs, goes, foo boop, sticks the, like, lays the frog out, bat onto the cutting thing. Bap, bap, with the cleaver, takes the 2 legs off, put the legs in the plastic bag. I think they weigh them 1st because you pay on whole frog weight. Then they take the live rear legless body and throw it into the trash heap along with the fish guts. Because a frog's a fish. Did you know that? You knew that. fish. This is amazing, though, but I've never seen the barrel and the butchery of bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. Because, you know, why would you take home that whole frog body that you're about to throw away when, you know, all you want is that rear, you know,
+
+[24:53] leg. You know, that's the theory of it. Thank you for making this day worth it to me educationally as well. We have just alienated all of your, uh, by the way, you have a podcast coming speaking of listeners, right? Yeah, so no one even knows. This is a world premiere. So I am getting into the podcast game. And now I know that I also have to work on my open, by the way. Like, thank you for just like, like, whoa, that's like how my open, because you're always worried talking about food on radio or
+
+[25:18] an audio that it's not going to have any energy, right? Right, right. But like, 0 my god, like now I have now I have a goal. Like to get to that Dave Arnold energy. Punch into it now. So yeah, the podcast is gonna be out soon and it's called Richard Blaze, starving for attention, which is perfect for me. Nice. what's the, I mean, other than food, what's the subject? We're getting, we're just, we're going to talk to everyone in the industry. I mean, obviously chefs, restaurateurs, and people in the beverage community, but also with a really getting into media and television and, you know, people that create food television shows, how it is to produce something, create a television show and get into the
+
+[25:53] media. And nightmare, right? Ah, yeah. what do you think, though? Do you, I mean, like now that you've been doing it so long, wait, do you, what do you think about it? Like, here's here's my thing. Without, for instance, the food network, I mean, there wouldn't be, I mean, like, come on, I mean, the amount of interest and
+
+[26:15] there's generated, like, countrywide, worldwide, like the food media has done a lot for food writ large that I think it doesn't necessarily get credit for.
+
+[26:26] Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you have to say it's been great because it's inspired so many people to discover things that they've never known that they would be into. The only sidebar is that, you know, because food is all over the place that, you know,
+
+[26:41] when as a restaurateur and as a restaurant chef, you know, you do get, you know, kids that come in that want to be a celebrity
+
+[26:48] chef. They've never been in the kitchen before. You know, it took me 12 years before, you know, I luckily got asked to come on a TV show or something like that. So you get a lot of that. Like, oh, I just, I want to, you know, I want to do cookbooks and be on TV shows and you can do that. But, you know, it's not what we necessarily need in the restaurant. Right. I mean, that pisses off all of my New York buddy. pisses them all off, but on the other hand, like, you're griping about something, and yet on the other hand, you're a well-known chef because there is food
+
+[27:16] media. So it's like they get mad about these like young kids coming in and wanting to be all hot shots and you can't have your cake to use another food reference and eat it as
+
+[27:25] well. You know what I mean? Because you can either own your cake or you can have eaten your cake. This is the only 2 choices. You know what I mean? Like, you can't expect to be a well-known chef that people write about and
+
+[27:36] then get pissed off that somebody else wants fame and doesn't necessarily understand the work that's involved.
+
+[27:40] Yeah, and if you microwave that cake. Yeah super fast. Yeah, then there you go. And then people are interested in your cake. Pretty much everybody knows that the solution to this problem is to make 2 cakes. You make 2 cakes. One that you keep for visuals. That's the one that's iced well, and one that has a better icing the cake ratio that you eat that tastes better. mean, that's the answer. Yeah, yeah. Well, with almost anything too. I mean, that's interesting. Like, how do you cook on television, which is another thing that I really love talking about. It's like you do things like that. You make 2 of the dish that you're about to serve, so you can test one. So you can pick which one's a little bit better than the other one. Yeah. So when you're doing TV, how much prep time do you have? In other words, so here's the issue. I see a lot of people, especially young people starting out, especially if they want to do kind of new technique stuff, they do stuff that they haven't necessarily
+
+[28:26] tried and it can be nerve-racking, right? Trying something for the 1st time on the camera. Oh, I mean, that's the biggest mistake, right? For all these young kids on shows like Chopped or Top Chef or something like that, then they're making
+
+[28:39] blueberry snow out of meltodextrin and it's really not delicious. And everyone's kind of also seen it by this and then they get sent
+
+[28:48] home. And then they're like, oh, the judge doesn't get me. Oh, they get you. They get you really well. You thought that, you know, that was some secret thing you just pulled out and it didn't taste good. Right. I mean, the thing is, is that, like, I think, to me, it's okay to try some combination you've never tried before, but make sure that if you're going to serve
+
+[29:09] people that the technique you're going to use is something that is in your toolkit that's in your, you understand how it works, you understand why you're using
+
+[29:16] it, right? And it has to serve deliciousness. I mean, it's pretty simple. Yeah, so if you can do both, then you're, you know, you're
+
+[29:24] going to be famous, like Richard Blaze. I mean, that's obvious. Oh, we got to we got to call it. see what they got. Call her, you're on the air. Hey everyone, this is Anton from Pennsylvania. I'm a research chemist and training and I've been following cooking issues for time now. We're in Pennsylvania. Where in Pennsylvania? Um, I'm in Allentown, but I commute all the way from Philadelphia. All right, nice. All right. I was just in Allentown. Yeah, yeah. I used to have relatives who live there, actually just outside in Kutstown. Yeah, yeah, my mom lived in Scranton for a bit. Really? We were just connecting on so many levels. So what do you got? What do you got for us? Yeah, this is actually my 1st introduction out of town. But, um, I actually wanted to say before I get to my question that that, uh, Alton Brown's good East was my 1st introduction, like really compelling introduction to
+
+[30:08] science, and not to include. Really? is pretty seminal to where I am now. But in, in, in regards to my actual questions, I've uh, been wanting to experiment with homemade miso, and I wanted to know if store bought miso, uh,
+
+[30:25] say from Whole Foods would be appropriate for culturing my substrate. Um, a friend of mine has taken charge of a Korean natural farming program in New Jersey, and will be trying to optimize their rights operations, which they claim to be one of the few farms producing rights in the
+
+[30:41] Northeast. Um, all this being said, I wanted to use this opportunity to experiment on some novel, uh, rice
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+[30:48] strain and uh, just kind of play around with me, so. so I wanted to know your thoughts. Real quick, can I just take a real quick? I'm going to pass on this one. Like, I thought we were going to the right place with Alton Brown and then, like, yeah, this is a Dave Arnold question. No, well, actually, you know, you should, our Cook Quest, who, uh, is like the miso master does, uh, like a miso workshops. I, look, a lot of, it depends on what you buy. There are, uh, there are misos out there that haven't been dorked with, uh, and that are still kind of alive, but you can just get Koji. I would just buy the Koji. It's readily available and, um, you know, look
+
+[31:29] up our go to, like, tweet our Cook Quest. That's his Twitter. I think, right? Our cook quest. He's been on the show before, actually. And he can hook you up with like the very, the very best in Koji strains. But, you know, like, here's the issue. When you're doing something like that, I mean, unless you have a miso that you
+
+[31:47] love, lovity, lovity, lovity, love, and like you're like, maybe there's some special mojo about this, I would just use a, and he is of the opinion, by the way, rich. That's our cook quest, that the strain of Koji isn't necessarily so as important as
+
+[32:01] the, um, substrate. But, uh, so I would just buy the Koji. This way you're guaranteed to have it work. It's not already been possibly, you know, treated with something or, you know, because a lot of times, especially, I don't know what misos you're trying to make, but if they're doing like a Shiro
+
+[32:17] mis or something like this, they hit it with alcohol to wipe out some of the, you know, a little bit of alcohol to stop it from
+
+[32:23] further, um, you know, fermenting or breaking down. So, I don't know. But I'm interested in this northeast rice. Have you guys ever heard of this? Northeast rice. Anyone? Anyone? Northeast Rice? I think it's a novelty. He, um, so, so my friend uh, studied that uh, USD chemical engineer there, and I guess he ended up working at a commune in Ohio, California,
+
+[32:45] which I don't know if anybody knows, um, California. I just partied in Ohio, like 2 weeks ago. It's an amazing place. Yeah. Right. So he, uh, he learned some Korean natural farming and uh, like worked with indigenous microorganisms. I don't know if any of this like rings a bell, but, um, he, uh, yeah, he brought it over here and he kind of ended up talking to, uh, this, uh, this farm in Paddington, New Jersey, called Blue Moon Acres, and, uh, they were super open to the
+
+[33:10] idea, and it looks like they were kind of heading in the same direction. So, the stars kind of aligned, and, um, yeah, I've enjoyed their race. I mean, they're still pretty young in terms of the actual program. But, uh, I figured I might as well like use this opportunity. Why not? Yeah, all right. Well, you know, like, let's see, like, my point is, is that any, it depends on what they can grow. So like New Jersey, anytime that they're not growing a tomato or growing a corn, I want to hit them
+
+[33:35] because like they, that's what they should be doing. But I'm sure there are land types in New Jersey that don't grow great corn and great, great tomatoes. So then, yeah, grow rice, right? I mean grow rice, I guess. A lot of great things. You know, New Jersey, Garden State, we forget that New Jersey was
+
+[33:50] the Garden State, especially, you know, Richard, you're a Long Island guy, which we grew up hating, not hating, but, you know, ranking on New Jersey, but it's
+
+[33:58] like, cousin, you give a little, you know, a little hard time too, every once in a while, right? Yeah. It's like imagine if your cousin was the Jersey Turnpike. Right, exactly. Yeah. You'd give them a pretty hard time. Yeah. But a lot of good things came out of New Jersey. like Welch's grape juice. you like Welch's grape juice? Love Welch is grapes. You have a recipe for concord grapes in here. Welch is grape juice, New Jersey. Vineland. Yeah. Six flags? We used to go from Long Island to Six Flags. Okay, here's one for you for those who and you guys, well, too young. Remember Action Park in Vernon, New Jersey? I do. Yeah, people what I didn't realize as a kid, people would die there constantly. Yeah, I had my junior high class trip there. Yeah, sick. It was amazing. Sick, yeah, yeah. Yeah. People would apparently get drunk. I was too young. The people who worked there would get drunk and rip the regulators off of the go-karts so the go-karts had unlimited speed at night and they would also be drinking. So like workers used to die all. Now, forget the kids. Workers used to die all the time. Why don't they bring that place back? Why don't they bring it back?
+
+[34:59] Hey, it's Kathy Irway, the host of Eat Your Words. Today I'm here with Camilla Salisbury, author of Bob's Dreadmill Everyday Gluten-free Cookbook, 281 delicious whole grain recipes. We're going to get to the bottom of this gluten-free craze.
+
+[35:14] So why aren't people eating gluten and what does gluten-free really mean? Well, there are 2 main reasons why people are deciding to go gluten-free these
+
+[35:23] days, and the 1st one is really serious. It's for people who have celiac disease, and it's a pretty serious condition, but then there is also a growing number of people with
+
+[35:34] gluten, gluten intolerance or gluten sensitivity, and they're trying out gluten-free diets,
+
+[35:40] because they find that eating foods without gluten just makes them feel
+
+[35:45] better. Okay, got it. But what actually makes something gluten free? Well, what makes something gluten free is, essentially, the hat doesn't have any of the protein, gluten in it. And a lot of people are surprised to learn that many grains do not contain
+
+[36:01] gluten when, in fact, just a very small number of grains do. Does anyone offer truly gluten-free options? Um, well, Bob's Red Mill really understands gluten-free options. And that means they separate their grains during the manufacturing process. And so they're testing each batch at every step of the way for purity to ensure that it's gluten free. So when it says on the package that it's gluten free, you can be assured that it is gluten free. All right, so gluten-free listeners out there, craving some steel cut oats can pick up a pack of Bob's Dreadmill, and rest assured, you're getting the real deal. Learn more about Bob's Redmill and all the gluten-free products that they offer at Bob's Redmill.com slash podcast.
+
+[36:51] So anyway, I hope that answers. Another call? Uh, sure. Call her, you on the air. Hey, David, it's David from California. How you doing? Where in California? Great, hey, Richard. Hey, what's up? Love Jennifer and Ivy out here, by the way. Thank you. Hey, uh, so there's a lot of meth surrounding this. Should I salt my eggs before cooking or only
+
+[37:18] after? And what's the science, uh, and why
+
+[37:23] you do one or the other? Before I, before I have him answer. What kind of, what, which style of egg are we talking here? It could be scrambled, an omelet, almost any, any style. Well, you know, this is ironic, because Dave, I was going to ask you the same question. Like when I came up here, I was like, what am I going to ask him? I was going to ask you about how do you season your eggs before? or during or after. Yeah, I seasoned omelets definitely before. Maybe, like, over easy, maybe, like, just as a finish, but that would that's how I cook. Yeah, definitely. Uh, before, uh, here's some things, it does change the egg somewhat, and I think in a helpful way. So, like, uh, you ever make, if you, like, you ever do, like, uh, sweet egg preparations, like a sweet omelet, like a tomago or something like this, right? Delicious, right? But you know when you're blending that stuff beforehand, you can see the yolks go kind of translucent on you when you add
+
+[38:18] like the salt and the sugar. And so you're definitely changing the egg yolk by adding that stuff. I think in a positive way. That's just my feeling. And so I do it beforehand. And it's yeah, in a positive way, making it more delicious. That's right. I'm also a firm, firm believer in, uh, not having a, uh, a thing that needs a bunch of salt throughout with some salt on
+
+[38:47] top. I prefer properly seasoned throughout with a little salt on top. You know what I mean? Right, yeah, yeah. you do you like finishing salt, though, right? Because I think that's one of the things that just happens in restaurants that regular restaurants don't do
+
+[39:01] it. And like it's just whether it's a little drizzle of oil, a little citrus, some zest,
+
+[39:06] little salt, like those little finishing touches. That's why I love the pass, right? Because you can look at me like, ah, and then you finish, like, it's not just about spitting food out. It's about like the finishing touches. And putting the eyeballs on. But, like, so, but, like, in a sandwich situation, every freaking layer, every freaking layer gets its own sub, like a little bit. So like when I slice the tomatoes. Now you don't want to salt the tomatoes away ahead of time because Christmas gets ruined, destroyed Christmas over, you're a bad person. You know what I mean? But unless you're making a salsa or something like this, you want to break it down. But, like, salt the tomato on, and then every layer gets its own thing. Yeah, with burgers, especially. one of my pet peeves. like, season the tomato that's on the burger. Because, because it wants it. It wants it. You make the, you, yeah, you salt. I don't salt the inside of the burger because I don't want the texture to change. So I salt the ever-loving crap out of the outside of the burger. We're on the same camp right there. We're vibing right now. Oh, but you have a stuffed burger. We'll talk about later. But then the, yeah, and then you solve the different layers because they want it because they freaking want it. back to eggs real quick This is something I just did recently. I had a little black truffle on my person. And I brought it on an airplane with me. That's smelly. And it is. And when I got served an omelet, which most airlines serve a little... Please tell me you did not do this, did you, how did you get the shaver on board? I just, I had a little, a little rasp that somehow like got through. And I just was like, you know what? Just for my person sitting next, I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna give this guy a show. And I pulled out a little black truffle on an airplane and just rasped, just showered this, you know,
+
+[40:39] vomit, vomit, with real black truffle. And like, it was kind of amazing. Did it unovercook the omelet? I mean, it made it kind of like enjoyable in the entertainment value. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, how do you... I was surprised that I even got on the plane with a truffle, not only just the
+
+[40:59] rest. If you, you know what? Like, I bet you a little oil as well could bring that omelette back from the brink, right? The oil on the truffle would just be like a topping, and then you could think of the omelet as bread. And if you put some gooey cheese in the omelet that helps. That helps too. They don't do that, do they, right? One of them does. I mean, not to judge airlines on their omelets, but I would say, I actually fly Delta all the time, but United has a really good omelet. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the one thing they can do. During the whole thing with United, I was like, but they make a decent omelet. The omelettes. I told last week, 2 weeks ago, I taught they killed a giant rabbit. They ripped that guy off the airplane. You know what I mean? But they're omelets. Good. I mean, pretty good. I mean as far as airlines go. I got to keep it real. Like they make a good omelet for an airplane omelet. What kind of container do they in, like, and how much of the omelette tears away when you open that foil thing? Is it just some sort of hideous nightmare with that? No, they so, you know, I'm riding up front, Dave. Okay, so like, they're pulling the, at least on this flight. And they're they're pulling the foil off up front. I don't see it. And it's a nice little container. They do, listen, you know, I mean, I could leave the sausage and sweet potato ash off to the side, but the
+
+[42:06] omelet is pretty good. You put a lot of the truffle on it. Yeah, yeah. I ride I ride deep coach. Deep coach. Yeah, yeah. I could see right before the back bathroom. Yeah, wait, Nastasi and I are like, does that seat recline? Because if it does, it's too good for him. And like they, you know, right? Deep coach, cattle class. You know what I mean? Like, I'm one step above the rabbit that united killed by putting it in a freezer. They do let me de-plane with the rest of the passengers just last. You know what I mean? Oh man. Oh, airplanes. Egg Eggs. Has this helped you at all? Yep, it does. So you're gonna, you're gonna chalk it up to urban myth, uh... Well, why would they, what's the theory? What's the theory of operation? Why I would want to salt it at the end only? You'd have to ask the chefs who insist on it. don't know. Look, here's what I'm going to say about this. Anyone, most people that I know, even complete
+
+[43:05] nincon poops, who are professional cooks that cook all the time.
+
+[43:09] If you taste their food and their food is good, then you, even if their explanations are crazy and make no sense to you,
+
+[43:18] it, it makes sense to kind of focus on their technique and what they do and why they do
+
+[43:23] it, and maybe you learn something that you didn't already know. like aside from what you and your head think, right? So the 1st thing is, is their food good? And then if it is, just observe what they do and maybe there's a good reason. I don't know. And current company excluded, most chefs are just assholes. Oh, sorry. That's all right. Don't worry about it. You're allowed to. I was, yeah, I was looking up, you know, in North Ireland now, not in like the, not in like lower UK, you're allowed to say gobshite on the TV.
+
+[43:52] Oh, I just want to start saying that just in general. It's a good word, right? Mouth poop. Is that what it means? It translates, yeah, like gobstopper, like everlasting gobstopper? like a mouth, like a mouth stopper, the gob being the mouth? gob shite mouth. I should have thrown that one. I apologize by the way. Gobshite. Yeah, lab. Well, we're not in Northern Ireland, but you know. Thanks to both of you. And to tweet us and tell us why I'm not supposed to add the salt until the end. Maybe there's some sort of reason. I don't know. I can't see a reason why I would want the inside of my egg not to taste good. I'll give him the over-easy. Like maybe over easy because it's thin and like you can... Yeah, also, by the way, here's a, here's a, what am I, what you said, an admission. I don't do the French style curd and scramble egg. I don't. I like an American style scramble, like a hard curd, not the creamy curd. So maybe, but no, all those creamy curd ones are salty, but maybe they're salted towards the end. Maybe it affects the curd structure. Maybe that's what the chef is talking about if they're doing the old school French. But there are a lot of those myths, right? you just kind of pick up and it's just like, why are you doing it? Oh, because the last 12 people told me to do it this way, but I've never thought about
+
+[44:58] why I'm doing it. Salt 100% and sugar, 100% affect the temperature at which the protein sets and probably also the curd structure.
+
+[45:07] So maybe it has something to do with those French, like, you know what I'm talking about, the super slow slow. Is it a moisture issue? salting mushrooms only at the end of a cook time, which I solved that stuff right at the beginning. Look at you. Yeah, I solved everything right as big as salt. Salt is your buddy. Speaking of salt, why do all chefs, I like them. Why do all chefs love the Bocarones more than the salted anchovy? I like I like both for different things. Yeah they're different. Yeah, want to eat on its own on some on a nice tartine, which was a bruschetta, which now is a toast.
+
+[45:38] I can't keep up with like what's cool to call a slab of toast. So I like the Bocaronas for that. But like for a sauce or something, right? Yeah, yeah. At the old school, throw it in there. school, yeah. I like the tinned packed in salt, guys. They're really good And, you know, they recently, um, so for those of you that buy anchovies packed in salt, uh,
+
+[45:58] they they used to for my whole life, they came in a giant, not giant, but like
+
+[46:02] for anchovies, giant can that's like kind of like, it looks like an oversized tuna fish can. You know the one I'm talking about, right? And it's metal, right? And you have to open it and then it's sitting around in your, in your, in your fridge unless you use a boat ton of anchovies. And they can, can sometimes rot through. They just move to a plastic tub. Oh my god, that's that's place for me. Yeah. No, you don't like the plastic tub? I kind of like, I buy those just for the tin because the tin is like, I love the tin. You love the tin, right? All right. All right. I mean, I'll get the plastic tub as well, but I feel like try the plastic. Try the plastic tub. That's really a shame. So here's some random stuff. So I notice you do your squash blossoms in a masa flower. You like the crispy crunch on the masa. I feel people underuse masa on a fry bag. Here's the thing. Native New Yorker who lived in Atlanta for many years and now I live in southern California and like my world has been open to all things
+
+[46:55] Mexican, basically. Uh, so we have, we pay a little homage to, you know, some traditional Mexican foods at my restaurant in Southern
+
+[47:02] California, and I think that, what, you're looking at a squash blossom Riano. Yeah, but I like the texture of a masa fried masa dusting better than cornmeal. Yeah, I think. A little not quite as grainy, right? Right, but also like it maintains it. You know how like when you fry in a cornmeal, it like sogs out pretty quickly. It does. So Masa is hard the way corn is hard and has the crunch, but I don't think it sogs out as fast. Right. Masa is also the name of one of my sous chefs. Really? Never soggy. It is, but he's always crisp and just on top. Japanese? Japanese. Strong. But do you like, like playoff, make masa cook masa? No, but you just inspired that. So like when we put this dish on the menu. So a couple other things. I noticed that you like to mess with the names of things to piss off purists. I'm assuming it's to piss off purists. You have a steak tartare recipe in here called carne asada. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, which makes no sense. Zero cent. Zero sense. Like the anti-sense. Yeah, and like, whoa, it's, yeah, it's raw, it's supposed to be, it's cooked. No, it's rough. Yeah, we like to have fun. We make up words. Like, so when we do, uh, when we blend some uni into linguini, we just call it
+
+[48:09] lingooni, because, like, why not just create a word while you're at it? If you're an artist, create the word, not just the food? Well, my favorite pun in this is you do Wu-Tang clams? Wu-Tang Clams. Because it's got the Chinese sausage. Yeah, but listen, the thing about, because it's got the Chinese sausage, but also Wu-Tang
+
+[48:24] Clams, ain't nothing to shock with. There you go. There you go. And you're selling this, dossier. Nastasia loves some puns. So I'm a 90s hip hop kid, so I can't, I'm a native New Yorker, so I can't, we'll never break out of that. So Nastasia, embrace yourself here. Okay, there's a Putinesque game here, right? It's Bucatini, but no freaking tomato. It's got capers. It's got olives, not the right kind for you, but it's got olives in there and capers. No freaking tomato. Yeah, well, it's a green version of it. Yeah, so it's a green version. So give me, can you give me, like, I know when we start talking about Italian food, the authenticity issue gets pretty strong.
+
+[49:04] Well, it's interesting that you go, you do a green, yeah,
+
+[49:08] especially. Everything's green in the book. this where we're going? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, you do you do that. So then I'm like, all right, he's doing, he's doing agreed, putting that, okay, whatever. I mean, not Putineska, but okay. And then I turn the page and I see crab meat and I tell you,
+
+[49:23] and I'm like, what is he gonna cover this with? And he'd go breadcrumbs. And I was like, that's right. That's right, yeah. breadcrumbs. We got the Calabrian chili's. We opened with that. There's some sort of authenticity, Richard Blaise. There's a little bit there. You gotta go break crumbs. I love bread crumbs on the pasta, by the way. My son, Booker loves it. He puts too much on. He calls it Mount Brederist. He pours like breadcrumbs all up in his pasta. But I love breadcrumbs. You also have to care for the bread crumbs, though. This is a pet peeve of mine too. Like, you have to make the breadcrumbs toasty and delicious. They have to be seasoned, right? Like, you can't just, I've seen on TV shows. Like, you can't just open up panko and pour it on top of your pasta dish and you're not, you're really not servicing the dish. What's that brand that comes in the tub? You know what I'm talking about? tub of breadcrumbs, it's above the bread aisle. What's that stuff? that brand? Don't don't sleep on 4C. don't foresee, that's it. don't sleep on my mom's go to foresee breadcrumb seasoning. You've never had Long Island chicken cutlets like that, Dave. Never. Does a Salisbury steak where he remolds the freaking meat back on the bone. First of all, for any of you that grew up with the television, Salisbury steak. That's my go-to TV dinner. But here's why. Because you got the Salisbury steak, and then what lives right over the little cliff there is the cherry cobbler.
+
+[50:37] And if you work a little of that cherry cobbler into your demiglass from the Salisbury steak, you're all ready to go? You got cherry demiglass, basically. So this is like the most not Swanson's hungry man looking solid. That's one of my favorite recipes in the book, because it's a hamburger on a giant bone. Like that's what hamburgers have been missing. Do you do this in a restaurant? We've done it in the restaurant here and there. I would love to put it on the menu. And maybe the book will drive that. Will Californians pick up a bone like that? Yes. Yes. Southern Californians? Like, what about LA people? LA people pick up a bone like that? Yeah, I think they will. I will say that, you know, the 1st question in California, you do the menu testing and yes, I don't have any questions about the 75 items on this
+
+[51:18] menu and then the 1st question is, can you get gluten-free? And, you know, can you do that vegan? Yeah, so I mean, that's just California. This would be a very difficult vegan recipe. That would be in, yeah, that would be really tough. Because how do you make a giant bone out of tofu? I mean, this you would have to tackle that. That's requires an advanced mind. They can have the herbs and the garlic. But that's about it. Yeah, no, that's it. That's all they need. can't get that one Here's one that's going to drive Nastasia and see. Nastasia has a very, like, you know, to her fans, well-known vegan face. You ready for it? Vegetarian. I guess it's not vegan. Ready? Beet loaf. Not meatloaf, beet loaf. What do you think about that? You hate beets. I hate beans, but you hate beans. I don't hate beans. I don't hate that's a lie. That's a lie. I love I love beats. What I don't like is when they taste dirty and they're in giant chunks. I like a pickled beet. I like a sliced beet. I like a beet salad. I like beets in things. I like party hydrated beats. I'm going to take it to a place where you, you wouldn't know that I would go there. I like canned beets. Yeah, I like them. They're earthy. They're earthy. I don't like when beats sneak up on you. Like later in the day when you maybe are going to the restroom. And
+
+[52:32] then, like, you have that one moment where you're like, oh, my God. Oh, okay. So right, I had beats. sneak beats I had beats. Sneak beats. So is this actually, honestly, though, it's good. It's delicious. For real. Yeah, it's tastier than the picture looks. Let me see here. I noticed, so you have a recipe for gumbo and you're like, gumbo's ugly. I'm just not gonna shoot it. No, listen, you can't shoot both. Actually, the soup chapter, the book is one of my favorites because they're all sort of soups that are meals, like, I know, you could do the nice little puree soup with some croutons, but
+
+[53:02] like, these are all soups, like, you put out a big bowl of it, and your family just goes at it. So, like, gumbo, kanji, some of the recipes we have in there, they're like meals borsch when it's like just lots of chunky things flowing around. like soups like that. You know, you put in as one of your seminal, like, childhood or, like, you know, young adult, the Tomka guy, you know, who doesn't like Tomka guy? This one over here. Yeah, I keep, I get it. Is it too much? Fish sauce. the coconut milk, right? I don't know. Forget, forget, forget it. She's just crazy. You know what else she doesn't like? Biscuits, biscuits. You wait a second. You don't like beets? Biscuits, or Tomka guy? Well, coconut milk, hot coconut milk. Do not like. Do you like cold coconut milk? No. Okay. Okay. So you don't, you, you do not like coconuts. Okay, but hold up, hold up. So I noticed in here, and I've seen this a lot in the past couple of
+
+[53:49] years, is that people pushing towards cream in the biscuits. So like mixing the butter base down with some cream. So do you like it because the biscuits just are more tender because there's a little extra moisture
+
+[54:01] animal? This recipe is an homage to sort of food scientist. Yeah, I've met her a couple times. This recipe, if there's one recipe, you're going to do that. do that one And you like to sell rising flour. You call for the old school. Yeah, you got the lily white. You got to get the lily white and, you know, maybe there's a little like sentiment behind it as well, but it's like a cakey biscuit.
+
+[54:22] Like, you almost have to serve it in the tin because it, you can't, like, remove it from the tin. That's how soft creamy, supple it is. Can you say supple for a biscuit? Is that a word for food? Like, I hate when people do that, by the way. So I shouldn't. Are these cut or these dropped? These biscuits. Uh, they're cut, right? Yeah, well, just, yeah, fill up the pan and just gets my Thanksgiving sort of recipe and we serve it at the restaurant. It's really popular. Today, we gotta wrap it up in a minute. Okay, so I noticed your cornbread recipe doesn't have enough butter. kidding. Does it not too much butter? No, no, it's like good. a lot of butter. And when it comes out, put more butter on it. That would be my suggestion. So just for you to know, like, it's, so we're looking at, like, um, a little more, oh, you do blue. A little more cornmeal than flour, but like, you know, pretty close to that kind of classic 11, right? So cup, the cup, a little over a cup of each. And then 2 sticks of butter to 4 eggs. like, boom, man. That's like twice waffle butter, which is nice. plenty of vegetable recipes in the book. And then a pound, a pound of jalapeno butter to serve on the salad. Well, listen, that's, you know, you put some in the fridge. A lot of the recipes in there are, okay, you're going to make this thing jalapeno butter. this mayonnaise sauce, and then you put it in the fridge because don't you want to have stuff left over? I do. By the way, there's a picture of you, Chef, hitting the whipped cream directly out of the EC. I have to tell Dax, my son Dax, every day, not to do this. Yeah, so that's... It is a horrible example. I am a horrible example. I hope that I've made that clear. All right, one more thing. I can have you answer one question, but then your chicken recipe, interesting because it's closer to like what I would see. Like, it goes directly from, you do 2 marinades first. You do a pickled marinade, brief pickled marinade, then in buttermilk, presumably to tenderize and soften, right? And then directly into the, into the flour mix, which is very, like a pies and thighs used to do it that way. I think where birds used to do it that way, but it's like, to me, an alternate because I'm a dry, dust, wet thing. and you go right out of the thing, but like it lackers down. and you're
+
+[56:19] just... let it sort of air dry a little bit if you can and that sort of, I think, helps with that. Did you lacquer? Did you lacquer your chicken? It looks so shiny. like it looks like... Yeah, so that one, that the picture there. Then we toss it back in that sort of Nashville hot sauce,
+
+[56:34] which works. Yeah, this is the secret. All right, now you're going to answer this question on the way out before. Oh my gosh. Okay. I am not prepared for any questions. Yeah, here it is. Vlad, which is an amazing name. Vlad. Vlad. I want to change my name now. Yeah, Vlad. I have a question about steering duck breast. Every time I see her and finish it in the oven, it comes out good, but when I start to cut it, juices are everywhere. And when I transfer the cuts to a plate, the juices continue leaking and it does not look good, especially with mashed potatoes. I know about resting. I tried it too, but the meat cools down very quickly and after 5 minutes rest, the breasts are not hot enough and some juices are still running to the plate. So this is, so then, and I'll give you, and then my current method is to give the
+
+[57:09] breasts a minute or so rest, and then to cut it and put it on towels to absorb the juices before I plate it. But I'm still losing the juices. What am I missing out on? Uh, and uh, Vlad's technique is to um, score it, salt, pepper, skin down, uh,
+
+[57:25] for until it browns, and then in a in a hot oven for 7 minutes. Wow, I mean, my answer is going to be super simple. Maybe it's the bird itself, right? Because depending on what that bird's been fed, there could be all sorts of... like if it's frozen, like it's frozen or yeah, sometimes it's like just brind or something. I know if the probably hasn't been brined. Yeah, I tend not to too much, because I think it firms up the inside of that. It firms up the breast. thinking about what he's using. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, you got to let it rest. It seems like it's a resting issue. And then, like, a little heat lapster. like if it's resting, but in a warm space. That's what I'm saying. Hot plate. Like, let it rest. Hot plate, hot plate. If you're going to do a duck breast like this, right? Warm your plates a little bit. Like if he doesn't have 2 ovens. This is why it's useful to have a plate heater, right? Right. I, not to push my own stuff. I sometimes will sears all my plate a little bit to warm it up so that it doesn't cool down your product too much. By the way, if there ever was like a Game of Thrones, like sort of like, oh,
+
+[58:22] chef, pick your weapon, I grab this ears off. Well, especially if someone has any fire right next to their ear. They're like, what? Yeah, I also, like, will wrap some like, like, I'm also swinging it. Just so you know, like if you can paint that picture. I probably my lawyers probably say that you should not do that. Don't do it at home. No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but... Lawyers are saying we gotta wrap it up. All right, so listen. All right, Dave. Jeez, Luis. All right. So, uh, so Vlad, uh, you know, if you have more questions, or if you want more, we'll deal more, add some other questions about cocktails. I didn't get to him. I apologize. We'll get to you. I might not, I might be in China next week, people. So I might not be back next week. I'll let you know via Twitter whether I'm back. We're going to visit because we're doing the spins all, which is the centrifusion I'm working on. So I have to go to Shenzhen, to pre-approve, and it might be next week. How much does it hold? like per vial. Oh, well, no, it's not. It's open bucket. So it's 500 milliliters per bucket, but you can run it continuously so you can just set it and forget it, walk away from it and do liters and liters and liters. Working on it. Dude, working on it. All right, so you heard it here today. First, this is other than the today show. So we play, I'll take, I'll take seconds to Hoda and Kathy Lee any day. Richard Blaze's new book, so good out today, go on Amazon, take a look at it. Thanks so much for coming. Thank you so good. Please help me beat the Ninja Turtles pizza book and jump on and buy a book. Yeah, come on. And if you're going to buy a cartoon-based cookbook, Make it be Bob's Burgers. Agreed. All right. Cooking issues.
+
+[59:48] Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network, food radio supported by you. For our freshest content and to hear about exclusive events, subscribe to our newsletter. Enter your email at the bottom of our website, heritageradionetwork.org. Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. Heritage Radio Network is a nonprofit organization, driving conversations to make the world a better, fairer, more delicious place, and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you. Want to be a part of the food world's most innovative community, rate the shows you like, tell your friends, and please join our community by becoming a member. Just click on the beating heart at the top right of our homepage. Thanks for listening.
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+[00:00,000] Vicious, vicious, fucker, oh, you did it, got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm not supposed to meet my baby. I'm 20 minutes late. You got my head all twisted. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. This is Dave Arnold with Cooking Issues, a show where you call in and talk to us about your cooking issues. Every Tuesday from 12 to 1245.
+
+[00:49,080] Today's show is brought to you by The Barter House. The Barter House is a proud supporter of the Heritage Radio Network. The Barter House works with family vineyards and small bottlers from around the world to bring only the finest and most flavorful wines to the market. To learn more about Barter House, please visit them at www.thebarterhouse.com or call them at 917-463-3076. I've actually never had The Barter House. We're here with Nastasja Lopez from cookingissues.com and AJ Ede, one of the people who was our interns. He's now graduated.
+
+[01:19,080] So, you guys ever had this wine before? No. No? No. No? All right. So, we're just going to open it on air and try it. While I'm doing that, I was like, there you go. We're going to drink this. It's kind of warm. It's a white wine here. It's a Chardonnay from New Zealand. And we're going to, it's kind of warm. We're going to drink it Chef Cesare Casella style, which means with ice. So, I'm going to pour this out here. And while we're trying this wine to tell you how delicious it is, I'm going to tell you the call-in number to call in and ask us any kind of question you want. 718-497-2128. And so, if you have any cooking issues, please call and we'll try to fix them or at least talk about them. Now, just to give you a little background, what we do is we're at the French Culinary Institute, which is a cooking school in downtown New York. And I run the technology department, which means that any kind of new technique or ingredient, we deal typically with chefs. But basically, anything kind of new or off the wall or kind of weird or any sort of strange problems, we deal with those. And we solve them for various chefs. We work with a lot of great chefs around the city. So, you know, if you have any questions about sous vide cooking or low-temperature cooking, which is, you know, kind of a new style of cooking that's making a lot of waves in restaurants right now or any kind of new age thickener, new ingredient, or if you want to rant because you hate these things and want to engage me in an argument on the air, we appreciate that. I love rants. I especially love ignorant people who don't know what they're talking about, calling and saying things about how I use a bunch of chemicals. So, if you want to do that, I encourage you to call up and we'll have this discussion on air with a lot less profanity than you would if you came to my lab and had this conversation. But anyway, first things first, let's try out this delicious wine. We're drinking Cairner Estate 2008 Chardonnay from New Zealand. Hold on. What do you think, guys? Yeah? Yeah. It feels old school like a working lunch, having wine at lunch. People don't do that anymore. You know, when you visit Europe, they still have wine at lunch and then we, like Americans, drink wine like we do at dinner when we're at the lunch and then we're blasted for the rest of the afternoon. Unless actually what happens is in Europe, nothing gets done after lunch, which is, I think, actually the more accurate thing. I think nothing in Europe happens after lunch, but it's kind of pleasant, right? We're sitting here in Brooklyn in the studio. And anyways, so while we're waiting for someone to actually pick up the phone and call, oh, and if you call and it gets really, it gets problematic, like, you know, there's yelling and stuff, Nastasha is the hammer just as she is on our website, www.cookingissues.com, where when things get out of hand, Nastasha, who brings her fantastic mix of Russian and Spanish, brings the hammer down on people. She loves doing that, so please call and get out of hand. We really appreciate it. Nastasha hasn't been able to crush someone recently, so she's looking forward to it. So anyway, so what do you think? What do you guys want to talk about before we get any callers here? Maybe you should talk about your Roto-Vap, your new Roto-Vap. Yeah, I saw the post go up last night. Oh, yeah. Okay, so here's the deal. For those of you who don't know what a Roto-Vap is, which I'm guessing 99.99% of you, what it is is it's a piece of distillation equipment which allows us to do distillations, to make booze, basically, illegally, because you can't distill here in the U.S. You know, without a distiller's license, it's a huge pain in the butt, but it allows us to do distillations at a very low temperature. And what's great about that is the flavors are the purest, cleanest flavors that you could possibly imagine. Am I right? You guys drink it all the time. I mean, it's not something that we can get flavors. I mean, commercial beverages are delicious, but it's just we get different kinds of flavors in the Roto-Vap. And they're kind of hard to commercialize because a lot of times they don't last very long or they're difficult to produce or they would be expensive. Anyway, we've been using this equipment, of course, like anything else, is super expensive. It's many, many thousands of dollars. And, you know, I'd used kind of a beat up old version that was older than most of my students. In fact, we got off eBay for, you know, I got off eBay, I should say, for almost nothing and kind of crowded together and got it to work really well. So, well, the corporation that makes them, Bukie, the first name in rotary evaporation, Bukie, no, Bukie came to visit us and they make the kind of the butt kicking ones. And they, because we were going to go on this show, the Jimmy Fallon show, and I told them I didn't want to, I didn't want to have one of their crappy ones from the, you know, early 80s being the one that everyone saw. And so they brought a really nice new rotary evaporator and they let us keep it, which is fantastic. And so the guy sitting next to me, AJ, who spent many, many hours flying our old, you know, kind of beat up rotavap is quite jealous because he's no longer working with us at the school. And now it's so much easier to do all of our work, right? That's true. Yeah, yeah. What are the advantages of rotavaping? Well, all right. Well, the disadvantages are it's illegal, right? So the, you know, the reason why you don't see it in a lot of restaurants here is because the chefs are confined to using it, making non-alcoholic drinks. If they make an alcoholic drink and try and serve it in their restaurant or their bar, they're endangering their liquor license.
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+[06:40,820] So consequently, they don't do it. And the stuff that's done with water just isn't as exciting enough, especially if you've ever done liquor, it's just not exciting enough to warrant, you know, an $18,000 or, you know, depends on, you could get one for five grand, but all that money, space and training just to do two water-based things. So that's why you don't see it a lot here in the States, although there are a couple of restaurants in Chicago that use them.
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+[07:03,100] But it allows you to separate flavors in a way that, you know, you've never done before. So we do, you know, as you guys both know, because I've forced you to do it many times, we'll do a chocolate liquor that has, you know, just cocoa, you know, the flavor of chocolate with none of the bitterness because the bitterness doesn't distill, just the Roman flavor does. So you have this, like, chocolate booze with no sugar in it that's, you know, delicious. Or we'll do, you know, very spicy peppers, habanero peppers that have no spice in them. They're just, you know, the floral, amazing floral aroma. You know, this kind of stuff. Or fresh herbs are kind of my favorite because they're just impossible to redo any other way. So, you know, something like, although Nastasha doesn't like it, you know, cilantro. By the way, Nastasha, who's here, I assume she's going to chime in at some point with some of her likes and dislikes, which are the most preposterous dislikes. You know, it turns out this lady who's in the food business now works with me, who likes everything. I basically like everything in the world with the exception of natto, which is, you know, disgusting, the Japanese fermented soybean product, natto, which is, you know, I don't think even in Japan they like it. I think they just pretend that they like it because it's supposed to be good for you. But Nastasha hates every damn thing. You're like, oh, I like delicious things. She's like, no, I don't like that. I hate that. Whatever it is. If it's delicious, I hate it. So, speaking of, oh, Nastasha pounded that wine. Jeez. I poured everyone a full glass. Right? We're talking for like 10 minutes. I got a half pour. You did not get a half pour. Come on now. She crushed the wine. Yeah, she obliterated that wine. Just, you know, mutilated. Anyway, so. It's good, though. Yeah. Well, apparently you think it's good. You drank the whole damn glass. Here, here, AJ, pour some more. Anyway.
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+[08:48,600] So, while I'm waiting for someone to call in, I will now talk about, because, you know, nothing better to do. I'll talk about some of my pet peeves. So, related to cooking, my pet peeves. So, like one thing I hate, and if, you know, I've been on this network a couple of times on other shows, and I always get to say how much I hate the word molecular gastronomy. Well, here's my opportunity to say it right now, and however long and however angry I want to say it. Do not use the term molecular gastronomy. You know, if any of you out there have heard the term before, molecular gastronomy, you do the best to erase this term from your memory. It's an awful term. I'll give you some reasons why. One, it's meaningless. It has no meaning. What does it mean, molecular gastronomy? What the hell? First of all, gastronomy is the worst word. It sounds good in French, you know, gastronomie. Gastronomie. It sounds like gas and tropronomy, gastronomy. It sounds like gastropod. It sounds like you have gas. It sounds like you're going to get gas if you eat it. Gas. Molecular sounds disgusting. It doesn't sound delicious.
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+[09:52,860] So I don't, you know, I don't really see the point in tagging something you're going to eat with a term that sounds inherently, inherently disgusting. And remember, this term is pioneered by this guy in France named Hervé Tisse. Hervé Tisse, who, as I said, you know, I was on the show here last week. I said, you know, I won't say anything negative about him except for he's a charlatan and a farce. And so the thing is, is that he thinks molecular gastronomy sounds good because he doesn't really speak English that well, right? He thinks in English the word food sounds gross, right? Seriously, he's like, food sounds disgusting. Food, maybe for a Frenchie, but, you know, I like food. Do you like food? Yes. Food's delicious. Yeah. Anyway, so it's a term that has no meaning. It sounds disgusting. It's basically a marketing term for this guy in France, Hervé Tisse. None of the chefs who are being described as doing molecular gastronomy want to be described as doing molecular gastronomy. And it puts you in a pigeonhole that I think is wrong. First of all, either all of us are manipulating molecules, in which case a guy cooking over a campfire is doing molecular gastronomy, or none of us are manipulating, you know, molecules. I don't know anyone with, like, a scanning tunneling microscope who's sitting there, like, adjusting individual molecules in the pie that they're making. I know at least one.
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+[11:12,860] So, but, you know, you get my point. It's kind of, it's pointless. And it's also, I think, what most people don't realize is that these new technologies are being used in restaurants all the time. It's just they don't know it because, you know, they're not doing the kind of food that is labeled as molecular gastronomy. So, you know, people assume that if you're using new technologies for cooking that you're actually, you know, making crazy food, making things that are wacky, making, you know, things. And we do do that, too, just because, you know, I mean, we do. But, you know, a lot of the best applications of these things, you would never know that a technology was used to do it. So we serve you a delicious drink that's, you know, strawberry flavored, and it's crystal clear, and it's got, you know, amazing effervescence, and the liquor tastes, you know, super fresh, unlike anything you've ever had before. And you're not thinking, hey, hey, this, you know, these people used, you know, $30,000 worth of equipment and spent, like, five hours and did, like, all these new techniques. You're like, this is a delicious drink. And I think those are the applications that are best, right? I mean, you don't necessarily want to know. So I tend not to do things like spray foams all into everything, which I think everyone's like, oh, you do foams and foams. But, you know, I think that's kind of the, you know, being able to make a good foam is kind of, you know, it's an important, you know, skill to have. But it's not, you know, I very rarely do it, you know, only when it's kind of, when it's called for. And, you know, foams are nothing new either, right? I mean, foams, take, for instance, the head on a beer. That's a pretty old foam. I think what people are doing is just trying to take the weirdest thing that they can find and turn it into a foam and then gastronomy. Yeah, right. Yeah, gastronomy. Yeah, no, but I think that's right. I think – and that's the other problem is some people who actually kind of like the term – I mean, the danger of this, as with any technique, is that someone will take the techniques and just do something just to do it. And the stuff doesn't taste very good. But then everyone who uses the techniques gets painted with that brush. And I think that, you know, that's the main problem. So you don't want – They need the marriage of technique and flavor? Yeah. I mean, it's like saying – you're only supposed to use these techniques to try and make flavors better or to try and achieve some sort of effect that you like. If you're using it just to use it, then that's not a good application. It's like if I handed someone a frying pan, they could make really crappy food with that frying pan. If I hand someone a centrifuge, they can make really crappy food with that centrifuge. Centrifuge is something that separates things based on their density. You know, it's – they're just tools. And so the trick is to be open to using these new tools but at the same time to use your head and say, why do I want to use these new tools? I want to use them when they actually make the food better, not when they're just a silly gimmick. Although, again, occasionally we will fall into the silly gimmick just because, you know, it's my job. But we try not to.
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+[14:09,660] All right. So pretty soon we're going to be going out on our first break. So in advance of that, let's have a cheers to the Barter House, a proud supporter of Heritage Radio Network. Don't forget to call in with your questions at 718-497-2128 to ask us anything you want about new cooking techniques, old cooking techniques, anything you want.
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+[14:31,980] You were listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. Welcome back. You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. To call in and ask us a question, call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So before we left, we were talking about the fact that new techniques and technologies in the kitchen are used for a variety of reasons. Some of the best applications of them are actually ones where you wouldn't necessarily know anything is going on. I think one of the best examples of that. We did many, many tests. How many did we do? A lot. About 20. No, no, no. That was 20 on that one day. We've done on that second day. We've done like probably 60 and change, which is not a lot for a commercial place like McDonald's who does thousands of tests. But, you know, 60, 70 tests, making my interns do French fries over and over again is kind of a pain in the butt. But what it's about is it shows a mindset. The problem is French fries are problematic, right? Here's why. You want French fries to be, one, you want the outside to be crispy and crunchy, right? You also want it to be not – it doesn't matter how much oil is actually in it. You just don't want it to taste greasy, right? So you want something that's crunchy, not greasy. You want the potato to actually taste like a potato, potato flavor and have an actual potato texture that's nice on the inside. Not, you know, not overcooked, not undercooked, not hollow. You want also the French fries to stay good when it's cold. I've repeatedly said a monkey can make a French fry that's good when it's hot. Same thing as a donut. A donut is a difficult problem. Any idiot can make a donut that's hot that tastes good because it's delicious when it's hot. The challenge is to make a fried food, donuts or French fries, whatever, that is good when it is cold. It's especially true with donuts because they're supposed to keep. But French fries, our task was I want the texture on the outside and the texture on the inside to be good right out of the fryer and to stay delicious even when that thing is cold. And so, you know, many of you out there who make French fries are familiar with the double frying technique, which is, you know, it's attributed to the Belgians, right? It's a double fry technique where you fry once to form the crust and to cook it and then you fry it a second time to make it crispy again. This is kind of, you know, that's like kindergarten French fry as far as we're concerned. You know, that's like, you know, not necessarily the best way to do it. The best way to do it is to do an initial blanching step where you kill the enzymes and cook the potatoes in a blanching step in water, salted water, which also flavors the potato, right? And then typically, the old ways, we would then dehydrate them a little bit, which allows for the crust to get more – it gets rid of some of the water, which means that it stays crunchier longer. Then fry it once and then fry it twice again. So it's, you know, a several-step process. But these make delicious fries. But the problem is with the drying step and with the blanching, a lot of times we would get hollow fries or they wouldn't be consistent. So we tried to figure out the absolute best, best, best way to do it. And, you know, how long do you blanch it? You know, Heston Blumenthal, the famous chef in England, says you should blanch for a long time until they break apart. So we ran all these tests. And if you go to cookingissues.com, you can see what we ended up with. We ended up soaking the fries in an enzyme, a natural enzyme, not some sort of GMO nonsense, but an enzyme called Pectinex SPL that you can also get from cookingissues.com. And what it does is it breaks down the pectin on the outside of the French fries and allows for the starch on the outside of the fry to swell very quickly and form a really nice crust. It also means you don't really have to dry the fries after you blanch it. So you soak it in this enzyme for a couple of hours, blanch it in boiling salted water to make it taste delicious and get cooked, and two times fry after that. And you have arguably the most delicious French fries that I've ever had. What do you guys think about those fries? They're delicious. I don't even like fries. Yeah. Okay. So it looks like we have a caller, right? We have a caller? All right. Hello? Hi. How are you? All right. I'm good. I was wondering what the benefits are of chilling a drink over dry ice. Ah, okay. This is an excellent question. Who am I speaking to? This is Carolyn. I'm from Massachusetts. Massachusetts. All right. Well, first of all, here are the things about dry ice. Dry ice, for those of you not in the know, is solid carbon dioxide, right? It's a lot easier to obtain, a lot easier to store than liquid nitrogen, which is actually our preferred chilling method for drinks and for many things. But hard to carry over a bridge. Very hard to carry over a bridge. I've done it.
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+[20:36,080] So the dry ice you can get usually from an ice supply house or sometimes from welding supply shops. And when you chill a drink with dry ice, right, there's a couple problems. You don't want to serve someone little chips of dry ice because that's bad. It's cold. It can burn your tongue. It's not very good. So one of the pitfalls is that you don't want little pieces of dry ice. Now, a friend of mine, Tony Canigliaro at Bar 69 Cobra Grow, was making daiquiris where he put chunks of dry ice in a blender with a daiquiri mix and blended them. And I have to say he got them to come out quite well, although the technique makes me a little bit nervous.
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+[21:13,820] The other thing about it, though, is if you let it chill long enough, the drink is going to become slightly carbonated. So I wouldn't chill a drink with dry ice that you didn't want to have a little bit of bubbles in it because it's going to get a little bit of bubbles in it when you have dry ice. But here's a really good technique for dry ice. Oh, and one of the prime advantages, obviously, is you make the drink. You get the dilution exactly the way you want it with water for a pre-batch drink at a party, let's say, right? And then now the dilution is perfect. Now your only job is to get it cold. Now, you can do that in the freezer by putting it in the freezer. But if you put it in the freezer, then it's hard to have it out and it's going to turn to crap while it's sitting on your counter because your guests are morons and they don't drink fast enough, right? And so it's sitting there on the counter getting warm and you're sitting there and you're pinching yourself and kicking yourself and all this because you know the drink is getting too damn warm and there's not anything you can do about it, right? And that's kind of a torture, right? Am I right? Right. Like the party I went to last week, yes. Oh, awful, yeah, right? And the drink is sitting there dying, dying on the counter because it's getting warm and there's not a damn thing you can do about it unless you have dry ice. Now, you throw a chunk or two of dry ice in there. Don't go overboard. You don't want to freeze the drink, right? And it's just going to sit at the bottom of a pitcher. Don't use something too wide. Like, you know when you were kids, you got the sherbet and the dry ice, right? That's a little bit too wide. You want to get kind of a narrow pitcher. Just throw like a couple of rocks of dry ice in there. It lasts a long time. Dry ice actually has a lot more cooling capacity than ice does, whereas liquid nitrogen actually does. It's a lot colder, but liquid nitrogen's cooling capacity is somewhat similar to ice. Dry ice can chill for a long time. Throw a couple of rocks of that in there. Give it a stir. After about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, that drink is going to be lightly carbonated and it's going to stay cold the whole damn night. And then if you have a problem, like you're running out of dry ice, just crack off another little piece of dry ice and throw it in. Plus, you know, it's got the good show with the mist. People like the show. And it's easily accessible. Yeah, it's easily accessible. So it's a really good technique, especially in summertime. You could have an ice cold, delicious drink. Even very traditional drinks, right? Like gin and tonics, for anyone who knows me knows that I have a lot of gripes with gin and tonics, right? Because they're usually either they're undercarbonated or they're not boozy enough. And it's supposed to be a summertime drink. They always turn to crap. Always turn to crap, right? Yeah, you have to drink them very quickly. Yeah, so even if you want to go completely traditional, you don't want to do anything, go buy your bottle of tonic water, buy your gin, get some lime, mix it up in a pitcher, right? A pitcher of gin and tonics. Put it, go out on your picnic bench or whatever, right? Throw a couple rocks of dry ice in there. That thing will stay carbonated and cold and everyone can get shellacked on delicious summertime gin and tonics without having to worry about, you know, that last flat, nasty, warm sip of crap that they think they like it because the tastes are delicious, but they're just always executed poorly. Does that make sense? Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. What's your favorite kind of gin? Oh, now that's a question. It's like asking me to choose which one of my children I love best. I'm kidding. Different gins are good for different purposes. And, you know, my kind of, you know, I like Hendrix for some applications. You know, it's kind of, you know, it's pricey. I think. Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah. You know, a lot of times for mixing, my hand instinctively reaches for Tanqueray. I don't know whether that's because, I don't know, because, I don't know, just because it's a nice high proof. It's easy to mix with. But I know bartenders that are partial to, you know, any and every kind of gin. My dad was an old school Bombay. He wasn't a Sapphire guy. He was a, you know, white label Bombay guy. And that's actually where I got my love of tonic water and highly carbonated beverages was from sitting next to my dad. Well, he would make a gin and tonic and I would have just a lime and tonic. So, you know, start me early. You got to start your kids early. Give them tonic water early. Get them started out. Very good. Oxley is also good. Well, yeah. What is? AJ's just messing with me. I have nothing. I like Oxley. I like Oxley. Oxley's fine. Yeah. It's different. It's a different. I don't think it's a traditional gin taste. But a lot of people I know like Beefeeder. I mean, there's a lot of it's personal preference. I recommend going and tasting a lot of gins. If you have friends that don't like gin, then a good gateway gin is Plymouth because it's light on a lot of botanical flavors, especially the juniper that people find objectionable in gin. And so you can kind of start them out with that. So that's why we call it, you know, the gateway gin. And it's available. That's the best kind. Great. Well, thank you so much. No problem. No problem. Thanks for calling. Our first official caller. That's awesome. Yeah. And I think we were able to help. See? Anyone out there who's listening, just know. Wait, but how much is dry ice? It depends. I think that here in New York, it's a little more expensive. You actually had to buy it last time. How much was it? I didn't buy it. They ordered it. Yeah, it's on the order of a couple dollars a pound and you have to buy, I think, like 20 pounds or something like that. So you're looking at like a $40 or something investment. But it's a small price to pay for a delicious beverage. It comes wrapped, you know, at a party. I wouldn't say to keep it around all the time because, you know, you can't store it in your fridge. I mean, if you can, it sublimates. And so you lose it over time. There's no way to store it for long periods of time at your house. But you show up with just like a, you know, like a disposable styrofoam cooler or cooler. You put it in. It'll last for hours and hours and hours. In fact, it'll last for, you know, a day or more depending on how well you store it. And, you know, it's pretty easy and I think especially applicable to, you know, summertime parties. What about the handling of dry ice? Well, okay, so dry ice, first thing you should not do is the first thing that many, many people do, which is take a chunk of dry ice, put it in water, seal it in a soda bottle and throw it and watch it explode. This is not considered safe practice.
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+[26:57,700] In fact, the problem is with CO2, you know, dry ice, it will, it will, if sealed, it will do one of two things. It will turn to a gas and it will slowly increase in pressure up to about 800 psi or more or explode, whichever comes first. Usually explosion comes first. So it's not a good idea to seal large quantities, although – never mind. It's not a good idea to do that. Another thing is it's very easy to get burns, cold burns, from handling it for too long. So, you know, while it's fun to sit there and play hot potato with dry ice, you know, I would use gloves when I handled it. It's a lot safer that way than liquid nitrogen is in terms of, you know, liquid nitrogen, there's always a danger that it's going to get underneath a glove. And really damage you, whereas dry ice is not such a problem. I'd also, if you're going to chip it, I would wear glasses, safety glasses, because you don't want little pieces of dry ice. It's very hard and you don't want little pieces flying off and hitting you in the eye. At least I don't want that. Yeah, it's awkward. Yeah, it is awkward. I'm blind and frozen. Yeah, yeah, it's not such a good idea. And, you know, it would be a bad idea to move into a living room and chill it with dry ice because your house will fill with CO2. Okay.
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+[28:11,460] So, we're coming up on our second commercial break. If you want to call in with problems, dry ice related or not, technical or not, for instance, let's say you want to talk about fish sauce. I love talking about fish sauce. Our number here at Cooking Issues Heritage Radio is 718-497-2128.
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+[28:31,220] That's 718-497-2128. And you are listening to the Heritage Radio Network, Cooking Issues.
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+[28:42,040] How do you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? Feeling good. It's true. You pay so much, bone brother. How do you feel, man? I feel all right. I'll call your name. I don't want those people to know you're in here. How do you feel, brother? Hey, jab. Sure did in time. Look at him. Ha!
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+[29:00,700] We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. Let's take him up, Fred. We've got to take you high. All right. We're going to do it again. You're going to do it again. Yeah, let's do it on time. We've got to take you high. Brother? Yeah? Now I want everybody to let Brad blow up by two courses. And then I want to wave in. Let's go until that beginning now. All right. All right. I'm going to get that fella with the little horn over there. You're going to change horns on me. Yeah, it's a change horns. Let's go. Brad, can you take us high? You are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. This is Dave Arnold, and we are taking calls and fixing people's cooking issues. So who do we have coming up here? We have a call coming in? Hmm? We have a call. Yeah. Hello? Dave? Yeah?
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+[30:17,380] Thank you. Thank you. I really am excited to have you, you know, at least live via this method. Well, hopefully we can help out. Who am I speaking with? John. Hey, John. How are you doing? So what do you want to talk about? Well, the two best things I bought for my kitchen this year, one was a cook tech.
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+[30:40,860] I bought a cook tech. The induction unit, yeah? The induction unit. It's just terrific. Right. But the other thing I bought was a mini-pack Torrey. Oh, which one? The MVS-31. Okay. Let me just tell our users for a quick second. So we're talking about an induction unit, which is basically, it's the most kind of, it's the most efficient way really to cook. It uses electricity, but instead of having a conductively heat, like make a lot of heat in your kitchen, it literally heats the pan by using an oscillating magnetic, electric magnetic field. And it's a fantastic way to cook. It's not as popular here as it is in Europe because our electricity is more expensive than our gas and because our chefs aren't used to it. The other piece of equipment we're talking about is a vacuum packing machine made by Minipack. And this particular one he's discussing, the MVS-31, is a really great size for the house. And it lets you do a lot of really fun things. It's a really professional piece of equipment. Sorry. Go ahead. And one of the great things about it, I mean, aside from trying to do sous vide or something like that, is the fact that, you know, just leftovers. Oh, yeah. You know, it extends life of foods. You know, they don't oxidize. You can keep them for days longer than one would normally keep things in the refrigerator. And, you know, like if you go to a place like Costco that's selling huge packs of meat, you can repackage meat into usable sizes.
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+[32:05,340] But that comes down, I know on your website, you're going to start doing a section on vacuum sealing and vacuum packing. Yeah. We haven't done it yet just because I've been busy. But it is the next, in the low-temp sous vide primer list, the vacuum packing is the next one, yeah.
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+[32:23,380] Right, and I guess my question to you is, how much air do you extract when you do it? You can go up to, like, I guess, like 98% or something like that. And I always try and get as much air and the highest vacuum amount when I'm sealing things. And I know you've got to – it can vary and you can seal them from, like, you know, zero to 100. But I was just curious, what are your recommendations? Okay, so here's the basics of it. And you can – if you go on www.cookingissues.com and search for – I don't know what to search for. Actually, Nastasha will look it up. Like, on the back thing, we do a thing on how the texture of meat is affected by vacuum.
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+[33:10,600] So, you know, how much vacuum you apply really depends on what you're trying to do. So if you're trying to do texture modification, then you want to apply the heaviest vacuum possible because you want to get all the air out of your product before you do it. If you're vacuuming to, like, put something in the fridge or freezer, then you want a heavy, heavy vacuum because you want to get all the oxygen out because that's going to be one of the prime reasons that things go bad, especially on leftovers, right? Warmed-over flavor and meat, you know, you can really prevent it by putting a good, hard vacuum on. And, of course, your product has to be really, really cold before you vacuum it. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to put a good seal on it. Now, if you're going to cook, the problem is that on red meat, it's not as much of a big deal. But on fish and on poultry, if you put a very hard vacuum on a product, I find it tends to change the texture of the meat when it's cooked.
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+[34:03,220] And so the effect is, for those of you that never vacuumed before, is that if you have a very high level of vacuum when you're doing a piece of fish, let's say, your initial bite will be extremely juicy. But all the water will kind of, like, rush out. And then as you start chewing, I think it gets more of a fibery taste and it turns almost – how would you guys describe it? Like, almost like – you know, if you've done it, you know what I'm talking about. The texture isn't good on the sixth and seventh chew, let's say. Right. It's like putting a brick on it in just a normal manner of cooking. It pushes all of the water out and so it just becomes a grainy interior. Yeah. I mean, I don't really understand the – I haven't yet, to my satisfaction, figured out the actual mechanism of what's happening. I just know from a practitioner standpoint that this occurs. So what we recommend is that if you're going to bag fish, you want to bag it at a low level of vacuum, just enough to get the bag basically, you know, a good seal around the food. And if you're going to bag poultry the same – I actually prefer to do poultry without vacuum in Ziplocs, but poultry in a vacuum. If you're going to do it, I would recommend doing a low vacuum. I mean, just for yourself, if you have the time, sometime I would take like three identical pieces and seal one at like 98, one at 99, and then one at full vac and cook them identically and then just taste the difference. Like next time you're going to cook a lot of something and you have the time to do it, I would definitely do it. But the vacuum machine that you have is a fantastic machine and, you know, I kind of wish I had that for my house because it's got a very good chamber size to, you know, to machine size ratio. It's really a nice machine. I mean, and it does so many things so well and the fact that you can – I mean, I've done blueberries last season that – you know, a low vac, but it preserves them, you know, without the ice and without all the other issues that, you know, come up when you try to freeze anything. Oh, yeah. And, you know, another like easy application is you could portion out – like let's say if you're like me, you have two kids, you make a whole boatload of pasta for dinner and then you have a bunch left over. And you want to be able to serve them for lunch or something like that. If you bag down the leftovers after they're done, it makes it a lot easier to reheat that stuff without either drying it out or ruining it. I mean, it really is, you know, it seems extravagant for the home, but it really, you know, it really has its uses. You know, I really like it. I almost think it's going to be the next big thing. I hope so. You know, if somebody could teach how good vacuuming is, you know, and I understand Food Saver sort of guided the way for, you know, the whole consumer public to begin thinking about this stuff. Yeah. But it's really an amazing kitchen tool. Oh, yeah. No, it's no question that – I hope that they become more and more prevalent and maybe the price is coming down. I know Mini Pack's working on it. I'm not a big fan of the Food Saver. I like the professional ones a lot better. Right, right. But I hope to get that next section of the primer out soon. Maybe if I have some time over the 4th of July break, I'll work on it. Nastasha's laughing because she knows that I won't. And then just – I also ended up buying a Sous Vide Supreme, and now I see that they're coming – not them, but the polyscience people are coming out with a new circulator. That's true. Have you seen their new circulator? Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Is it? Yeah.
+
+[37:30,000] It's sweet. I like the Sous Vide Supreme because it's easy and you can just sort of stick it away. Have you ever used a circulator, like a regular – No, I have not. You will love – let me tell you something. It's just boatloads better. It's just – when you move from a non-stirred bath to a stirred bath, plus it's so much easier to put away. This thing is the size of like – it's like in between a stick blender and a regular blender. It's – yeah. I mean, I'm not – I have nothing against a Sous Vide Supreme. I've never cooked with it, but I mean, I use circulators every day. It actually works – it works very well, and I've just been – I've been doing a lot of like lamb chops. Yeah. And you just hit them right on when you do it at like 140 for like an hour and, you know, some minutes and then sear them off. It just becomes so perfect. Get your hands on it. Just test it. Play with a circulator. I guarantee – I've never – here's two things I've never heard someone say. I've never heard someone say, hey, I regretted buying that VitaPrep blender, and I've never heard someone say I've regretted buying that circulator. I've just never heard it. Maybe someone somewhere has said that, but I've never heard it. The Sous Vide Supreme, it doesn't actually have a stirred bath, right? It's not stirred. No, it's an unstirred bath. It's not that it does a bad job. It's just to me it's bigger than it needs to be in your kitchen, and it doesn't have circulation. So if you're doing a longer cooked item, you're going to probably be okay, but if you're doing shorter-term items or if your stuff's coming in and out of the bath a lot, I always think you're better off with circulation. So it would be like one bag at a time. I mean the circulator is going to be more money a little bit. I mean I think the Sous Vide Supreme is about $500 now, and the circulator is going to come in just under $8. But to me it's – I mean it's easy for me to say because I've had the equipment for a long time, but for me it's another $300 well spent. Right, but there's nothing wrong with Sous Vide Supreme. No, no, no, no, no. And it holds product in there very well, and I've not had any real issues with it. I'm not saying anything negative about the Sous Vide Supreme. No, nor am I. I love it, but I may just get a second one just for the hell of it because there are times that you want to do vegetables along with the meat and at different temperatures. Well, I don't know if you have anyone in your house who is going to need some convincing that you need this, but you can tell them I said that the circulator is a good purchase.
+
+[39:56,580] Now, can you sell me on the – what was the one that you just got? What, the Roto-Vap? The Roto-Vap. Well, if you have $20,000 to spend, yeah, call Bukie and get one right away. But like – Anyway, listen, thanks for calling. I've got someone else to come in. We're going to run out of time. Thanks a lot. Very good. Thank you. Did we lose our next caller, or are we still got him? I don't know.
+
+[40:27,240] No? Oh, there's no one. Oh, there's no one? Oh, we had someone. Now I made – now I cut this poor guy off, John, off, because I thought you said we had another guy coming in. So, Dave, if you're going to actually have to cryovac some fish, what is the general rule of thumb for the percentage of vacuum? Fish? You know, look. You want the minimum vacuum that you can get on fish, and you want to bag fish with oil or some other liquid so that it doesn't crush the portions down. I think a lot of people, when they first get a vacuum machine, they put a hard vac on fish,
+
+[40:56,300] and they – you know, the portion looks insane. It looks like a pillow because they've crushed the bag around it, and they're much better off, you know, doing a light vac. You know, look, I love the vacuum machine, but get the circulator first, and then, you know, play around. I think we have another call. Oh, we have another call. I think he came back, the person, yeah. Oh, yeah? Mm-hmm. It's John? No, no, no. Oh, the person came back. Hello? Hi. Hi. Hi, I'm Janelle. Hey, Janelle. Hey, I have a question about brisket. Brisket, okay. Every time I try to cook it, it comes out terrible. Is there a trick to having it come out, you know, like you get in a restaurant, you know, kind of melting in your mouth? How do you cook it?
+
+[41:36,000] Well, I've tried grilling it, and that hasn't worked because I haven't been able to maintain a low temperature on my grill. That's very difficult, yeah. Yeah, so I, just the oven, you know, about 250 for, depending on how many pounds it is, you know, a long time. But I don't know if I should sear it first or if there's, like, a trick to it that I'm missing. All right, yeah. Okay, so I'm dealing with a fundamental deficit in that it's been so long since I've had to cook without a circulator.
+
+[42:05,120] That it's difficult, but, yeah, so I would guess that, I wonder whether the guys in Texas put an initial sear on it or not. Probably not. I don't know. Probably not. Isn't it all about the Maillard? Well, you know, brisket's all about, okay, so a brisket is a tough cut of meat that has a lot of connective tissue, right? And so the basic technique is you're going to overcook the hell out of the brisket meat, but then over time you're going to break down the collagen. And the collagen that you break down is going to turn into gelatin, and that's going to re-moisten the meat. So, you know, one of the problems you might have had is that you might not have cooked it long enough for it to get re-moist again, but you treat it basically like a braise.
+
+[42:49,600] Cook's Illustrated, I believe, did a brisket recipe for the house recently, but I haven't looked at it. But in general, you're right. Low and slow is the way to go, but you have to give it enough time for the collagen to kind of convert. The commercial guys do it in a very low heat in a pit, and the smoke gives it that characteristic smoke ring and then also treats it at a fairly low temperature so that it's basically doing almost like a confit thing but without the fat. It's cooking at those kind of temperatures, at those low temperatures. And you could – I mean, if you braise it, it's not going to taste like brisket. It's going to taste like a braise. It will be delicious, but it won't be the same thing.
+
+[43:30,960] I feel awful. You know what I'm going to do? You know what I'm going to do? Here's what I'm going to do. Go to – okay, listen. In a week's time – give me a week. I'm going to research this thing. Go to www.cookingissues.com, and someone will have posted a thread in the forum section. Go to the forums, and someone will have posted a section on it, and we'll figure this problem out for you so that it doesn't happen to you again, okay? I've seen really great techniques with marination, like a 24-hour marination before the actual cooking. That will keep it really tender. We're going to start a discussion on the forums of cooking issues, and we're going to get this tacked down because we have some Texans who go to the blog, and I'm sure they will tell me that anything I say is preposterous and stupid. And having had the brisket they make down there, they do know how to make good brisket. Anyway. That's great. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks for calling. All right. Bye-bye. All right. So we have someone else on the line here? Yeah. All right. Who do we got? What do we got? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi. How are you doing? Hi. I have some questions. Is this – who is this? This is Weepop. Weepop. Weepop Soupy Pot. Okay. People who are listening, this call is coming in live from Bangkok, Thailand. War-torn. This is Weepop Soupy Pot, one of the great all-time people, a friend of cooking issues, a friend of ours. And so, Weepop, what is your question all the way from Asia? What is your question? All right. So I eat a lot of beef, right?
+
+[45:02,100] And so sous-vide have been picking up in Thailand, and a lot of chefs are cooking sous-vide tenderloin. But I think previous caller has kind of answered the question already, and you sort of have answered the question. So why does tenderloin become really diverse and really mushy? Okay. Tenderloin is a huge problem. As you know – I can't believe Weepop was calling. I'm so happy. Weepop, I'm so happy. Anyway, so the – tenderloin is an interesting case. Tenderloin wants to be cooked at extremely low temperatures because it doesn't have a lot of connective tissue. The more connective tissue that a piece of meat has, kind of the higher the temperature or the longer you need to cook it. When you cook something at a low temperature for a long time, a lot of the initial effects of whether or not you're going to overcook something happen right away. And this is the hardest thing when you're learning to cook low temperature sous-vide to wrap your head around is that you're no longer cooking in terms of just, oh, I'm going to turn the temperature up to cook more. It's really temperature and time. And this stuff doesn't overcook just because you cook it longer. But you do get textural changes. So what happens in meat that is essentially devoid of connective tissue is that it gets – not an overcooked because it doesn't taste overcooked. But as you chew it, it tastes kind of fibery as you said. And so with tenderloin, you want to cook it at a low temperature, at the low end of the scale. When I say that, I'm sorry for all of you in America land, I think in Celsius because I work at the French Culinary Institute, you want to cook it at like 54, 4 Celsius, right around there. You don't want to go too much higher. And you want to put a sear on it. And you only want to cook it, a tenderloin, for like 45 minutes. Now, the problem here is that this isn't food code because you're not keeping it long enough. Now, but it is kind of safe. As long as you sear it, you kill all the bacteria on the outside. It actually is kind of safe because the inside of the muscle is sterile, but it's just not code. You know what I mean? But I don't know what the codes are in Thailand. We have no code. Oh, nice.
+
+[47:08,320] It makes it perfect. Yeah? How are you doing over there in Thailand? How's everything going? Oh, well, things are going great. We have new equipments in and we're playing with food on this end. Well, ship us out there. Ship us out there. We're figuring out a lot of stuff. Hi, Wee Papa. I need to... You know I love all the Thai ingredients. How come you don't get me shipped out there? We got to go out to Thailand. Cooking Issues has to... Stasi, right? Yes. Cooking Issues has to go on the road to Thailand. Yes. Wee Papa's made me a happy man.
+
+[47:37,080] The new David Thompson restaurant is going to open up here in about a month's time. For those of you that don't know, he has the best cookbook on Thai food in the English language, in my opinion. Didn't you buy something, Wee Papa, recently? Oh, yes. And I bought a secret royal Thai recipe that's supposedly not in print anymore, which David Thompson is actually going to use part of that book to base his new menus on. So you're going to email us the recipe or what?
+
+[48:06,860] I think it's in Thai. It's in Thai. I would have to translate it. Oh, jeez. But yeah, it's recipes from like 1908. Oh, nice. It's extremely old. All righty. Well, Wee Pop, thank you so much for calling. I can't wait until we can see you back in the States. We've got to get you back to the States, back Stateside. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye, Wee Pop. Bye, Wee Pop.
+
+[48:28,760] So what are we doing now? We haven't taken it over? We have to go to break. We have another caller? No, you have another minute. We have another minute? All right. So this then was the inaugural version of Cooking Issues, the show, on Heritage Radio Network.
+
+[48:44,000] Today, Cooking Issues was brought to you by the Barter House, and the Barter House works with the – we've polished off an entire bottle of one of their family vineyard's wines here, the Kerner Estate Chardonnay, and we appreciate that they are the sponsor of the show. Thank you for listening, and come back next Tuesday. Thank you.
+
+[49:34,900] Thank you.
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+[00:00,000] My name is Mackenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com. GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe.
+
+[01:21,140] Hello, you're listening to Dave Arnold on Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, the show where you call in with your cooking issues and we try to solve them. Be they technical, be they not technical, we are going to work on them for you. The call-in number here is 718-497-2128. That is 718-497-2128. And I'm told that for live call-ins, we are authorized to give away Heritage Meat Pork Chops, Porterhouse Pork Chops. So that's an incentive to call in. Please do call in with your questions. I'm here with Nastasha Lopez, also working at Cooking Issues. And we actually have some email questions. If you want to email questions, email them to...
+
+[02:06,740] That's jenlopez at frenchculinary.com. Right. Okay. So let's start, Nastasha, with some questions that were emailed in from last week. What do we have here? We have one from Mike who wants to know about curing a large cut of meat, I think, or pastrami. All right, so Mike is making pastrami with beef blade, and he's been pumping it with liquids to cure it. And he wants to maybe move to a vacuum machine. Now, some of the advantages of the vacuum machine is you don't have to use a lot of brine. You can go dryer with a dryer rub and cure quickly. And I can assure you that curing in a vacuum bag does work. I apologize to Mike. We actually just got a vacuum marinator so that we can run a bunch of different vacuum tests and see exactly what the optimum vacuum level is. There's some disagreements. Some chefs I know, they'll use something like an Instacure powder or Morton's Tender Quick, which is basically salt plus curing powder in it. Curing powder is nitrates. Nitrites, rather. And these aren't some sort of crazy thing. These have been used for hundreds of years, so I don't want anyone saying we're adding some sort of crazy, newfangled, artificial crap to it. Nitrites have been in cured meats for centuries and centuries. Actually, millennia in the form of impurities that are already naturally occurring in salt deposits around the world. So, that aside, it's a little tirade tangent for you. But if you just, you know, either use a brine or rub your cure onto the meat and pack it in a vacuum bag, I think you'll notice, I usually use a high vacuum. Some, you know, professionals say that you actually don't want a super high vacuum because it can actually, at a certain point, hinder the, you know, the penetration of the brine. But I haven't tested it yet, so I don't know. But you'll notice much, much quicker penetration in a vacuum bag. Much quicker. So, for instance, I haven't done pastrami this way, but pork belly, you can get almost all the way through a pork belly overnight in a vacuum bag.
+
+[04:00,460] So, a vacuum machine is definitely a great way to accelerate a cure. Now, from a taste standpoint, on a long cured item, I would never use it to accelerate a cure on a long cured item, rather, like a ham, let's say. Because a lot of the flavor of a ham, you know, I'm specifically talking about, you know, longer cured hams, has to do with the length of time it takes for the curing to happen. So, in general, even though I'm a tech guy, things that are cured over a long period of time for flavor, I tend not to try to accelerate too much. Thanks, Mike. If that didn't answer your question, please, you know, post something on the forums at www.cookingissues.com forward slash forums, or email us another question. Thanks for the question. And before I take the next question, I'd like to say that today's show is sponsored by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single-source supplier of free-range, all-natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. Since 1865, the Hearst family has raised cattle on the rich, sustainable native grasslands of the central California coast. The result is beef with extraordinary flavor that's as memorable and as natural as the surrounding landscape. For more information, go to www.hearstranch.com. That's www.hearstranch.com. Actually, I'd like to tell you some of that stuff, huh? Yeah. And maybe they'll send us some. Sounds really good. Yeah. And again, the number to call in for this show is 718-497-2128. Cooking Issues at 718-497-2128. All right, Nastasha, what's up next? We have another question from an email from Jason, who's a health nut and is going to buy a circulator from PolyScience. He wants to know the best way to cook a skinless chicken breast. He wants to avoid butter or duck fat and use something like olive oil or coconut oil. Should he bag it? Should he brine it? Bone off? What do you think? All right. So what was his name again? Jason. All right, Jason. So you caught me at a little bit of a disadvantage because I almost never cook for health. I almost always cook for pure taste. So I'm always a little bit out of sorts when I have to comment on nutrition.
+
+[06:02,120] However, if you just want to know how to make a skinless chicken breast taste as good as you can, you've gone the right route with it with a circulator. Now, here's the problem. If you vacuum a chicken breast in a vacuum bag and then circulate it, you can – I would do it at 63 degrees, by the way. If that's a little too – a standard chicken breast in a vacuum bag, 63 degrees for roughly an hour or so is more than enough. That's a good way to go. So if that's a little too underdone for you, I would up it to maybe 64. I wouldn't go above 65. I know this runs counter to what you're taught your whole life, but trust me, try it, and I think you'll agree. I tend not to like to vacuum the chicken because when you do, it tends to take on a canned chicken texture. It's almost too juicy, and when you bite into it, all the juices kind of flow out, and then the third and fourth chew are a little drier than I like. So I tend to put them into Ziploc bags and cook them that way. Oh, by the way, for anyone listening who doesn't know what the hell we're talking about, the piece of equipment we're talking about is an immersion circulator. And an immersion circulator is basically just a piece of equipment that lets you keep very, very accurate water temperatures. And this allows you to cook things very, very accurately, so you never overcook them. You don't have to monitor them too much. It's very simple. You know, food doesn't dry out. It's a great piece of equipment. And, you know, if you look under low temperature and sous vide on www.cookingissues.com, we have enough information to choke you on immersion circulators if you want to know about it. So go look at it there. But they're actually a fantastic piece of equipment that people are using more in their homes. Now, back to your question, I wouldn't vacuum bag them, even though I love vacuum machines. I would use Ziploc bags. And the reason is because if you don't put a vacuum on it, you're going to get much more of a natural texture in the chicken breast. Now, you can use any liquid you want, really, you know, from chicken stock up to olive oil. I tend not to bag too much with my really flavorful olive oils because I think the taste interaction can be a little bit strange sometimes. But, you know, you can use basically anything you want. And you don't need that much of it in the bag, actually. So you just seal the bag up until it's almost done. And then the trick is dunking it under water. And then the water basically displaces all the air so that you get a nice seal. And it's very, very simple to do. There's a, you know, not to pump the blog again, but on www.cookingissues.com, there's a section on Ziploc bagging with step-by-step picture instructions on how to do a really good bagging job with a Ziploc. And I can make my Ziplocs very quickly look as good as a vacuum-packed job to, you know, the untrained eye. So I think that's really kind of the way to go. And you can, you know, season it normally. You don't really need to brine it except for the brine is going to increase the salt level on the inside of the meat, which is going to give you kind of probably a better taste and texture. But you don't need it from an overcooking standpoint because you're not going to overcook it. Now, because you're not going to have a lot of texture on this because it's a skinless chicken breast and it's going to be somewhat soft, these preps are usually better, I think, kind of chopped up for use in salads. They're really good for cold preps the next day. But, you know, I tend not to eat skinless chicken on its own. But, you know, this is a really good technique for a cold prep because when it cools down, it's still going to be delicious. It's not going to be dry at all. And so to recap, 63 for about an hour, 64 maybe if you like it a little bit firmer. You think that got it? Yeah, I think so. All right. We have another question. We're going to wait to see if your friend, Michael Ascanis, calls in. Oh, yes. We have a question regarding a recipe from Michael Ascanis, the pastry chef at La Bernadine. And I was too stupid to text him beforehand to ask him the answer to the question. So we have a text in to him. So we're going to handle that question towards the end of the program. Well, since we were off last week, why don't you tell them how you spent your Fourth of July and what you cooked? Ah, well, okay. So, you know, Fourth of July, I usually go either to Maine or to Cape Cod or some combination thereof. This year, I went to Cape Cod. And, you know, as many of you know, Cape Cod and Massachusetts is, you know, kind of lobster country. The guys in Maine actually make fun of the Cape Cod lobsters. They say the Maine lobsters taste better than the Cape Cod lobsters. And the guys in Canada make fun of the Maine lobsters. So the further north you go, the more they make fun of the southerly lobsters. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
+
+[10:15,740] But so anyway, so Maine lobsters, right, they have – there's a catch size limit. Like you can't catch lobsters that are too small and you can't catch lobsters that are too big. And it's based on the measurement of the back shell. And that's a conservation method, you know, effort. And it must be working because, you know, the lobster fishery in Maine is actually still quite healthy. Now, in Cape Cod, they don't have those kinds of limits on male lobsters. Male lobsters, you can basically take any size you want if you dive for them. There's certain – I think there's limits on how many you can take per day. You're not supposed to take big females because lobsters, unlike most creatures, as they get older and older and older, they still bear more – not just the same amount of eggs, more and more and more and more eggs. So an older lobster, female lobster, is much more valuable to the lobster population than the young female lobster. So you shouldn't take the older females. But the older males, I kind of think, are fair game.
+
+[11:08,920] Now, a lot of people think lobsters, big lobsters, that they taste bad. And this is just because two problems. One, they cook them too long because they have to cook them a long time to cook them through. And secondly, they don't serve them properly. Lobsters, as they get older, the muscle fibers get bigger and bigger and coarser and coarser. So if you were to bite into the lobster tail, let's say, of an old lobster, it would taste kind of rubbery and tough. Now, the trick with this is to just slice the tail and meet like that into discs. And then the fibers are already shortened and you're actually biting kind of with the grain and it breaks apart. And, you know, it has a different texture from a young lobster tail, but it's still, you know, very delicious. So, you know, a lot of people, they don't kind of, they don't believe this. And, you know, usually the biggest lobster I'll cook is like six, eight, eight pounds, which is still a monster by most standards. I mean, you know, most people are out there with their, you know, one, two and three pound lobsters, sissies.
+
+[12:02,040] And so, you know, what we did is I walked into this store in Truro, Mass, and I was like, yeah, what kind of lobster do you have? What kind of, you know, what kind of size lobsters? The guy's like, eh, 20 pounds. It was 20 pounds, 20 pound lobster. I was like, jeez, 20 pound lobster. I bought it, basically. And a 20 pound lobster is really, really big lobster. And I thought if you could get any lobster to prove my point that big lobsters aren't any worse than small lobsters, that, you know, it's going to be harder to get one bigger than about 20 pounds. Now, the guy in the store told me that a 20 pound, this 20 pound lobster is like 130 years old. And, you know, and then everyone else was like, oh, my God, you're eating something that's 130 years old. It's older than anyone at the table. You know, the lobster almost could have fought in the Civil War, all this kind of. But that's the nonsense, first of all. The lobster does not fight in the Civil War. The lobster is sitting at the bottom of the ocean, you know, killing other lobsters when it can and hiding whenever it molts. You know, it's still just a lobster. It's still, you know, its brain function doesn't get any higher just because it's old, right? I mean, that's the kind of thing, this kind of sentimental notion that just because it's old. You know, gooey duck clams can live to be 140 and, you know, people don't have that much sympathy. Well, I don't know anyone that has a lot of sympathy for the gooey duck. Anyway, anyway, aside the point, the fact of the matter is this lobster wasn't actually 130 years old.
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+[13:15,600] You know, that's based on these kind of crazy formulas that they have for lobsters, you know, that don't kind of fit older lobsters. It was probably, but I mean, it was old. I mean, let's be honest. It was probably like 60 or 70 years old, you know. So, yeah, anyway. So, here's what I did. I had the guy at the lobster store. He wanted to cook it for 45 minutes, which obviously would have made it, you know, inedible and terrible. And this is why people think big lobsters are bad. So, instead what I had him do is I had him steam it for eight minutes. This kills the lobster and it lets the meat separate from the shell. Then I got metal shears because the shell is so darn thick. And I cut all the meat out of it, right? And then I sliced it thin and I Ziploc bagged it with butter. And then I quick poached each individual slice. So, each slice was cooked very quickly, which preserves the texture. The lobster that's cooked for too long gets mushy. And it was sliced properly so that when you chewed it, it wasn't going to be tough. And it was, I think it was one of the best lobsters I've ever made. And, you know, certainly it fed our whole crew delicious. So, anyway, you can check out that post also, you know, pumping ourselves again, why not, on www.cookingissues.com. Anyway, I've been told that we're, what are we, we're going to break? Yeah, we're going to break. We're going out to break and we'll be right back with Cooking Issues. Funky. Down. Nasty. Hey, listen to the man. Well, I'm not father. Hey, that. Cold bloody. People, people, we got to get over before we go undone. Down. People, people, we got to get over before we go undone. Hey, country, you didn't say what you mean. You just changed. Brand new funky president. Stock market going up. Jobs going down. It ain't no funky job to be found.
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+[15:03,800] Taxing. Taxing. Taxing. Keep going up. I changed my glass. Now I drank from a pack. Cup getting bad. People, people, we got to get over before we go undone. Listen to me. Let's get together and race. Let's get together. Get some land.
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+[15:27,840] Raise our food like the man. Save our money like the mob. Put up the facts and own the job.
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+[15:42,280] Tell them, Godfather. Tell them, Godfather. Hello. Turn on your funky motor. Get down and praise the Lord. Get sexy, sexy, get funky and dance. Love me, baby. Love me nice.
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+[16:03,660] Don't make it once. Can you make it twice? I like it. Peep, peep, we got to get over before we go undone. You are listening to Dave Arnold on Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network, where you call in and we answer your cooking issues.
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+[16:21,580] Please call in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Call in with any cooking-related question you want, and you will get free delicious pork chops. Emailing won't get you the pork chops. Sorry, folks. No pork chops with the emails. Okay. So we talked about lobster. I'm going to wait a couple more minutes to see whether or not we get Michael Ascanis to get him on the phone to talk to him about his recipe that we're talking about. The question came from actually a person who reads our blog, and it came from the person who sent us. The mana, yeah. Yeah, mana, yeah. Delicious mana candy, which you can also read about on www.cookingissues.com. Pump, pump, pump. Okay. So let's talk about cocktails for a minute while we're waiting.
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+[17:16,580] Next week, I guess, I'm going off to New Orleans to go to the Tales of the Cocktail, which is kind of a cocktail convention that they have in New Orleans every year. And a lot of the great bar people go every year, and it's kind of a crazy, debauched drink fest. It's in New Orleans in the middle of the summer because they're too cheap to have it in New Orleans any other time. No one wants to go to New Orleans in the middle of July where it's a billion degrees and 100% humidity and sit in some of the best old bars in the country, un-air-conditioned, drinking yourself into oblivion. But yet, I do it every year. Anyway, just kidding. It's a great event.
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+[17:57,060] So this year, I'm going and I'm part of a seminar called – what's it called? The Science of – Shaking? Stirring. No, I did shaking last year. You know, Evan Clem, the kind of well-known bartender, he's kind of the head of the Be Our Guest mega restaurant chains bar program.
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+[18:14,420] And he pulls me in every year. Last year, we did kind of the science behind shaking a cocktail where we actually came up with some interesting information, which is as far as the dilution of your cocktail is concerned, and as far as the temperature of your cocktail is concerned, really, as long as you're within reasonable limits, the way you shake the cocktail doesn't make a bit of difference, really. It makes a definite difference on the – also, the ice type doesn't make as much difference as you think. It makes a difference on the texture of the drink and how it tastes, you know, the texture of it in your mouth. But in terms of temperature and dilution, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. This year, we're taking on stirring, and you'll have to – you know, I suppose I shouldn't post the answers before the seminar. That would mean people didn't have to go to the seminar. Yeah, right. So we'll be posting that stuff hopefully after next week after the seminar, Tales of the Cocktail. But something I will talk about is dilution and pre-batching cocktails. So, you know, a lot of times you have to make a cocktail and then, you know, batch it all together. Let's say you're doing an event or a function or party, and you have to put all the cocktail together beforehand and then serve it out.
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+[19:25,920] And a lot of people have kind of crazy ideas in their heads on how to figure out how much water to add to a pre-batch cocktail to really get it to work properly when you put it in the fridge.
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+[19:38,740] So let's – by the way, pre-batch cocktails, it's very hard to pre-batch a shaken cocktail because, you know, you really do need to shake a shaken cocktail to get the texture right. We ran side-by-side blind taste tests of drinks that should be shaken versus stirred, and we did them both shaken and stirred. So we did a daiquiri, which should be shaken, and we did, you know, a daiquiri stirred and a daiquiri shaken blind with blindfolds on, and you easily tell the difference. And we also took drinks that should be stirred, like a Manhattan, you know, which is, you know, whiskey. We used, you know, rye whiskey, vermouth, and some bitters. And, you know, we stirred some and shook some and tasted them blind, and huge difference. Now, the shaking is hard to emulate in a pre-batch cocktail unless you have liquid nitrogen. It turns out we've done some tests that if you chill a drink a la minute that you've already diluted with liquid nitrogen, you can emulate the texture of a shaken drink pretty well. But stirred drinks are basically good if you just dilute them properly and then chill them because basically stirring is just a chilling and diluting process. It's not a texturizing process, and that's why you use it for those drinks. You don't want to add a lot of extra texture in a stirred drink. So, you know, if you can, you choose a stirred drink to do your pre-batch drinks with. And then here's how to determine how much water to add. Make a single drink, right? Make it using volume like you normally would with jiggers. Then weigh that on an accurate scale. Weigh the drink. Write that number down, right? That's how much drink you're starting with. Now, add your ice. Stir it just like you're making a normal drink. Normal drink, right? Stir it, right? Then strain it. Now, weigh how much the drink weighs now. That is the weight of the total cocktail. If you subtract the weight of the liquor that went into it, the liquor and ingredients that went into it, from the final weight of the cocktail, you have basically how much water you should add, right? And that's really the best way to determine, instead of guessing in your head 25%. And it also doesn't work to try and dilute it by just diluting it with water when it's at room temperature and then tasting it. Because when you chill it, the balance is going to be off. So you really just want to make a drink the traditional way and then weigh how much water is in it. It's slightly more complicated than that because some of your liquor is actually held on the ice. And so you have to do a lot of fancy finagling. But within two or three grams of water, you're going to be pretty much right doing it the way I just told you. It seems complicated, but I think your pre-batch drinks are going to thank you for it. And you only need to do it once. If you write down the recipe, you can get that recipe right every time. You don't have to retest it every time. So it's a little bit of a pain in the butt, but well worthwhile. Right, Rastazi? Yes. Yes. Yes.
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+[22:25,280] Okay, so that's pre-batching cocktails. What else should we talk about? Let's talk about the meat that's coming in today. Oh my God, yeah. So what's the name of the butcher again? It's like Sizzmer. Sizzmer? Sizzmer, yeah. In, where are they at? Chicago? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's this butcher shop, and I'm ruining the name, but it's like Sizzmer, C-Z, C-Z what? C-Z-I-M-E-R. Yeah, and these guys have been around for decades and decades. I think they're a couple generations old of business now at this point, right? Right. Yeah, and they specialize in bizarre, rare meats, right? And meats that you wouldn't normally get. So what does that mean? I'm not talking, you know, buffalo, although they do have that. I'm talking beaver and lion, you know, what else we get? Raccoon, bear, you know, things that you can't normally get and meats that you can't normally buy because you can't, you know, in this country, you can't buy meat that's been hunted by a hunter. You have to know a hunter who legally bags meat in order to get these kind of game meats. So before I get people writing in telling me I'm a horrible person for ordering lion meat to taste, and by the way, we're going to taste a tiny piece of each one of them, then bag them and cook them sous vide because we think that these tough, you know, tough older meats are going to be best that way. Anyway, so before you get angry at me about ordering these meats, you should know kind of how it happens that these meats are sold.
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+[23:53,460] It's not a pretty story, but here's how it is. People get lions as pets because they're crazy, right? I mean, they're insane, you know. So they get lions as pets or they have lions and they use the lions to breed, you know, like they're breeding lions either for, I don't know, for what, for zoos, circuses, whatever, for other, you know, freak shows who want lions as pets, right? So they breed them and then once they're no longer good breeders anymore or if someone has a pet and they don't want that pet anymore, they give them to animal brokers and, you know, just like stray cats, you know, you give a stray cat and they get put down. You don't have to see it. You don't have to do it, but you basically know your cat's being put down. The same thing happens with a lion.
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+[24:39,200] So they get the lion and if they can't sell it, which often they can't on an older lion, the lion is killed. The actual, the most valuable part about it is the skin. The skin is sold off for, you know, for fur, for lion fur, for, you know, for whatever, making rugs, I guess, I don't know. But then the meat is basically a byproduct. So, you know, rather than let it go to waste, you know, these guys, you know, in Chicago buy, you know, the meat from these exotic animal brokers and then freeze it and resell it. So no one's going out and slaughtering lions for the purpose of food. These are, you know, animals that probably shouldn't have been in the situation that they were in but not through the fault of the, you know, the butcher. It's just, you know, once you've killed the animal, you might as well put it to use. So we're going to taste all of these meats. What do we have coming in? We got? We have lion, black bear, a whole raccoon, and two beaver tails. Two beaver tails. I thought we also got some of the regular beaver meat, too, no? No. I thought we did. No. You sure? I'm pretty sure. Hmm. Beaver tail is an interesting one. And yak. Oh, yak. Yes, yes. The Tibetan favorite yak. We'll get some yak milk cheese. We'll go get some yak milk cheese, and then we'll have, you know, yak, yak, and yak. We'll get some yak butter, and we'll make Tibetan tea with yak butter floating on the top of it, which is actually wretched. I don't know how people drink that, but we'll make it, you know, in the sense of, you know, we want to be authentic. Authentic sous vide Tibetan dinner. Anyway, beaver is an interesting one because back in the day – here's the thing. And the butcher laughed his, you know, rear off because he says there's no meat on a beaver tail, and he always has people asking him to buy it, to eat it. But he says there's basically no meat on it, so, you know, what are you going to do? And, you know, I think the reason most people call him – I don't know how much of a history buff he is, but for all you history buffs out there, you know, back in the day, there were many days, not just Fridays, when Catholics weren't allowed to eat meat. There were many, many, you know, fast days and Lenten days, and on those days, you weren't allowed to eat meat. You could only eat fish, right? And so, you know, in fact, that's my theory why in Italian recipes, you'll find very few recipes that use dairy and fish because it wasn't just meat you weren't allowed to have on a fast day. It was dairy, so you didn't cook with dairy. You didn't cook, I believe, also eggs, and you didn't cook with meat. So these were, you know, basically fish-based dishes, and this helped, you know, fuel the dried stockfish and, you know, the dried cod, you know, dried fish business for hundreds of years. Anyway, you know, and there's all sorts of religious reasons why they thought meat inflamed the passions and it was good, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, so beaver tail, because, you know, they had kind of, you know, this is pre-Linnaeus, they had wacky, you know, ways of categorizing animals. So the actual beaver was an animal, and you couldn't eat that on the fast days, but beaver tail was seen kind of like fish. And so you could eat beaver tail on a fast day, and so you actually get these recipes, or these mentions, anyway, in medieval documents of beaver tail, cooking beaver tail. And this has got to be why this guy gets the interest in it, because there's lots of history buffs out there who, you know, are doing this kind of thing. Oddly, also, whale clearly is not labeled as a meat. Strangely, it was labeled as a fish, so if you could get a hold of some whale meat back in the day, I don't advocate that. But if you could get a hold of it, you could have that on a fast day as well, I believe. I'm not sure how seal is classified, but I don't know. Anyway, so we'll let you know how the beaver tail and the lion is. The lion is actually supposedly interesting, because if you think about it, there's no commercially raised meat that we have that comes from a carnivore. And supposedly, you know, they have a completely different taste, carnivores do. So we'll let you know when that comes in. What's going on, Sassie? We have two more minutes, and then we're trying to look up the tables from Douglas Baldwin. Okay, so I have a question that came in. Who did you come in from? Caleb. Caleb. I have a question coming in from Caleb, who's looking up, you know, Douglas Baldwin. Douglas Baldwin has online a sous vide primer, and he just came out with a book on sous vide cooking. And he's a mathematician. I believe he lives out in Colorado somewhere near Denver.
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+[28:57,920] And he has a bunch of tables in there that allow you to calculate exactly when food's temperature, when food has come up to temperature, when you're cooking it sous vide or low temperature in a circulating bath. And for those of you not hip to the fact, this is a huge way of cooking now is that you'll put something in a bag and then put it in water, and it very gently and very evenly heats food. But a lot of people, when they're starting out, they worry a lot, lot, lot about whether or not the inside of their food has come up to temperature. And so they'll do things like stick thermometers into it, which is, I think, really kind of fraught with problems because you have to get the thermometer in the right place. Otherwise, you don't get the right answer.
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+[29:37,640] And, you know, a lot of times you won't get it in the right place, and then you'll undercook something. You know, the thermometer can puncture the bag, and you can get leaks, and this causes problems. Most often, I think thermometers cause more problems than they help. So Douglas Baldwin, being a mathematician, along with Nathan Mirvold, who's coming out with the Superbook in December, I think, November, December, on cooking. Nathan Mirvold is a Microsoft guy who, you know, has a huge passion for cooking. And has probably one of the greatest kitchens in the world is working with Chris Young, formerly The Fat Duck, and 15 other cooks on making the world's kind of greatest technology cookbook, you know, coming to Amazon soon. I believe you can actually preorder it now as of last week if you've got the money for it. And anyway, so Nathan Mirvold on a website called eGullet a number of years ago, a good number of years ago at this point, published a bunch of tables on how to figure out how long it would take food to get up to a certain temperature in a water bath based on certain dimensions. And those tables work and are probably easier to work out than a formula. I don't know the formula because we haven't been able to find it yet, but I would definitely look up on eGullet Nathan Mirvold's tables, which are going to be much easier to use than a formula unless you're trying to create your own Excel document.
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+[30:56,040] Without having the formula in front of me, it's hard for me to tell exactly what he's doing because he could either be calculating the food based on the fact that it's treating it as a big slab and trying to heat through the slab, or he could be talking about cylinders that are heating through. But I'll tell you this, all formulas that – his formula, I'm pretty sure is right. I've seen it once and it's good and he's a mathematician and he's good at that sort of thing. But any formula that tells you X number of inches per – X number of minutes per pound or X number of minutes per inch are egregiously false because as things get bigger, it's not linear how much longer it takes to cook it. I tend not to use these formulas. I tend to cook a couple of things and then store in my mind how big those things are and how long they took to cook and then just do it that way. And I'm almost never, you know, wrong. So I know that an egg takes about 45 minutes to an hour to get all the way up to temperature. A rolled chicken, you know, like a torsion thing, takes like an hour. I know that a 36-inch striped bass, the size I normally get, takes three hours. You know, so you kind of build up this knowledge. But I'll try and post some information on that in the forum for you sometime this week. Sorry, I couldn't be more accurate on the answers. We should go to break. All right, so we're going to go to our second break now. Please call in to claim your pork. You can ask anything, you know, the price of eggs, although I don't know it right now. Anything like that at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Cooking Issues.
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+[32:36,480] Please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, don't play the blues so sad. Cause the night before last, I lost the best girl I ever had. Please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, send my love sexy. Please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, send my love sexy. Please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, send me the blues so sad. Send me tonight like I've never been sad before. Please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, please, Mr. Johnson, don't play those blues so sad. Because the night before last, I lost the best girl I ever had. This is Dave Arnold, Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. Call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Caller gets free delicious pork chops.
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+[35:14,220] Okay, so we're having trouble getting through to Michael Ascanis, the pastry chef at La Bernadette. And so I'm just going to look at the question from Kitchen Girl. Kitchen Girl without the, it's G, by the way, if you look, she has a blog. If you're looking for a blog, it's Kitchen G-R-L, Kitchen Girl. That's her, that's her blog. And she sent us some delicious, actually, before I go into her question, some mana candy. So, did we talk about that last time, Sazie? No, talk about, yeah. All right, so, you know, mana is a real interesting substance. It, it, when I'm going to say mana, I mean like mana from heaven, like, like in the Bible. And, you know, for, you know, my whole life, you know, this is something I've, you know, read about, known about, never knew was actually a real, a real thing, a real product.
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+[36:01,300] Until, you know, this guy named, you know, Baruch Sharifi, the saffron king, gave us something. He's like, here's mana. I'm like, what? What the hell are you talking about, mana? And then I, basically, I did a lot, a lot of research. It turns out that mana isn't one thing. Mana is a huge variety of different products. And here, here's what they all have in common. One, they're sweet, okay? Two, they appear as if from nowhere. They, you know, they're not, they're not cultivated. They're, they're wild things. They're providential. They're, you know, they're kind of, they're, they're bonuses. And, and so, you know, those are basically the two main, main criteria. Most of them are actually dried sap from trees.
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+[36:42,520] You know, probably, you know, a lot of it hasn't been researched, actually, strangely, but little bugs will chew on the undersides of leaves. The sap will come out, then dry up, and, and that dried sap is mana, mixed, mixed along with, you know, little bits of twigs and leaves and other nonsense like that. Another way mana is made is, is actually, it's, it's honeydew, which means that a bug bites into the leaf. And this is, honeydew is, you know, what aphids make, you know, here in the States, and ants collect it. So what, what honeydew is, is a bug will bite a juicy leaf or stem of a plant, and the pressure of the sap is so, uh, strong compared to the bug that it literally shoots, uh, it shoots sap through the bug and out it's behind. Uh, and that's honeydew. I mean, it's gross to say it that way, but it's basically, like, force-pumped bug poop that then, uh, dries up on the outside into a delicious, sweet substance. Uh, anyway, so they go out into the desert. Most of these manas happen in the Middle East, you know, kind of, you know, uh, because it's dry enough there for these manas to form. And, uh, people will go out in the morning with twigs and beat on bushes and catch this mana that comes down, uh, you know, from, you know, from the bushes and, and use it. And, uh, there's dozens and dozens of different types, but there's a, there's a candy that's been made, uh, I guess in, you know, the entire, the entire area, uh, you know, Iraq, Iran, uh, and, uh, called ghaaz in Iran. I forget what it's called in, uh, in, in Iraq, but, uh, Kitchen Girl sent us some of this mana candy, which is basically just mana with a little bit, you know, more sugar and, and, and nuts in it. I forget whether they put egg whites in. I have the ingredient list on the, on the blog. Uh, but, uh, it's, it's delicious and, uh, it's got a really unique texture that, uh, you know, it's, it's weird. It's kind of chewy and, but it breaks. It's, it's very mana-like or you can get the straight mana, which is delicious, you know, uh, mixed in, in bourbon, uh, which we, which is incredibly delicious. You can get that from Saffron King. Uh, he has a website, the Saffron King. And this stuff is, is crazy because they, they, not so much the mana candy, that didn't change as you, as you bit them all the time. That was more of a textural thing, the candy. Uh, but, um, the actual mana itself, every bite you take of it tastes a little bit different than the bite you had before. And different people have different perceptions of it. Uh, I wrote an article in the, uh, New York Times on it, which, uh, you know, you can, you can search for. And we, we did a blog post on it. But anyway, it's a long way of saying Kitchen Girl sent us a question. Uh, you know, the, she very kindly sent us the, uh, the mana. And then she, she has a question. She's working on, uh, a pate de fouille recipe. Uh, pate de fouille. I never know how to pronounce it, whether it's pate de fouille or pate de fouille. I'm terrible at that. And pastry chefs always laugh at me and correct me, as do all the Frenchies at the school. But, you know, crap on them. Uh, so anyway. So she's working on Michael Ascanis's, uh, his recipe here. And, uh, basically what you do is, is you're cooking the, um, fruit puree to 180 degrees Fahrenheit, uh, uh, with sugar. Then you add pectin, sugar, and glucose syrup. And then bring it up to a higher temperature, 225, uh, Fahrenheit. And then pour it into a silpat tray to set. Um, and she's having problems with her sugar, uh, with, with the, sorry, the fruit burning in the, in the puree. When she's, when she's doing it. Um, and I don't disagree. I'm sure she is, uh, having some problems. She says that at 180 degrees Fahrenheit, her fruit is starting to brown and sometimes burn, uh, and that it only gets worse when she adds more sugar. Uh, and she's thinking that what's happening is her pan actually is getting too hot. Uh, so she's actually getting scorching because her pan is too hot. Uh, now I don't have a lot of, uh, experience with this. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make some random stabs at ways to try and fix this. And then I'm actually going to try and get the actual answer and I'll post it, uh, in the forums at cookingissues.com. Um, but, um, I guarantee that Michael, uh, is probably using an induction burner, which is going to be much more accurate as temperature control. And so much less likely to scorch than if you're using an open flame burner, uh, and a pan, especially, you know, I don't know, uh, you know, how good the temperature, you know, conduction is there, but, um, anyway, uh, 225, you should actually be okay. It shouldn't actually burn if at 225, if you, if you have good temperature control at the bottom of the pan. And I know this because, uh, I've, I've been trying to test out, um, caramelization of, uh, of sugars and, uh, and fruits in pressure cookers at temperatures well in excess of that without, uh, burning. Uh, and so you should be able to do it. So I would, uh, I would use an induction pan that's got very accurate temperature control to prevent scorching and maybe go slow. Uh, and you know, she asked at the end, she has a circulate immersion circulator. Can she do it in a water bath? No, there's no way to get, uh, a water bath up to, um, up to 225 unless you put it under pressure, but then you're, you're, you're ruining. The whole point of boiling it isn't the temperature actually. It's, it's at a certain temperature, you've gotten rid of enough water that when it cools down, it'll have enough solids. So if you, if you do something in a water bath, you're not boiling the water off. And any of these pectin and candy recipes with sugar are, are, are, are basically requiring that you remove a certain amount of water. And the way that you guarantee that you've removed it is by reaching a certain temperature at atmospheric pressure.
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+[42:10,100] Now you could, I've never tried this actually. You could maybe do a very low temperature pet food in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in a, in a rotavap. It's kind of an interesting question. You know what I mean? Like if you evaporate the water off of, uh, off of, uh, you know, uh, you know, uh, a mixture under vacuum, I should be able to, I've never thought of this before. Crap. This might work. Yeah. Like, like we could do a low temperature one of these because the, the pectin needs to make it to a certain temperature to, uh, to work. Right. So it needs to get up to at least regular boiling, but I could take something to regular boiling, then throw it in the, in the rotavap. I could set the rotavap at boiling. Right. Dissolve the pectin in it. Hmm. Right. Huh. And then, and then evaporate off the water. And I know exactly how much, I know how much water because I can look up, I'm not seriously, like I can, I can figure out like what my finished total solids, uh, solids content. Pectin is one of these, uh, pectin's a hydrocolloid. It's natural. We've been using it for, you know, since there's been fruit, we've been using pectin. I don't want to hear that chemicals or any crap like that. Uh, pectin's great, but standard pectins that you use for these kinds of things, Pat, we, they, they, uh, first of all, they need to be heated up, uh, to, I think to boiling or roughly there close to there to, to, to work properly. But also, they require two things, acidity, hmm, and high soluble solids. They need, uh, and what that means is something like sugar that's going to bind all the water that's, that, that's left there so that the gel, uh, so that the pectin gels and forms a good, uh, thing. That's why if you try to make a jelly and there's not enough acid, it doesn't work. And why you like, you know, you always add, not just for flavor to make it tart, but to make it work. And why, if you don't cook your jelly long enough, it's not going to set, right? That's how pectin works. Caramels, on the other hand, are basically just solidifying sugar by removing water, uh, or, you know, candies, rather. Caramel, you're actually breaking, breaking the sugar down. Anyway, that's basically how it works. But I should be able to do a, a, a, a pectin, right, at, at, at a, at a much lower temperature using a standard pectin and a rotovat, making an uncooked, uh, thing with traditional pectin. Maybe I'll try it. Of course, you know, you can use, you can use different kinds of pectins and get the same, uh, effect without having to go to such high soluble solids using a, a, a kind of pectin called, uh, um, LMA, low, low methoxyamidated pectin, which, you know, uh, whatever. But most people don't have access to that. Of course, most people don't have access to a rotovat either, so what the hell am I talking about? Uh, okay. We should tell people that you're teaching a class, uh, on the 28th for high-tech cocktails at the school, if they're interested. I am? Yes, you are. When? The, July 28th. Okay, July 28th, uh, Nils Norin, the head of, uh, the, uh, whole Magilla at the French Culinary Institute, and I, uh, are cooking a, uh, teaching a high-tech, uh, cocktail class. For the public. Yeah, for the public, and basically what you do is you come to the French Culinary Institute, and we'll do, you know, like two or, two or three cocktails that, you know, that you can't possibly do at home, using, like, a, using a rotary evaporator and liquid nitrogen. Well, you could, I mean, if you're Nathan Mirvold, you could do anything at home. But, you know, uh, we use, uh, most of you can't do at home. And then we're gonna actually teach you some technology that you can use, like, for instance, how to clarify lime juice in, in 20 minutes. And this is something we do. It's actually, you know, that technique is exactly one year, one year old. Wow. Yeah, cool. Anyway, so yeah, come, uh, look, go to, uh, www.frenchculinary.com, and, uh, you can look up that class. Um, you know, that's, uh, we're actually headed back there. We got a lot of cocktail tests to do, uh, back at the, at the French Culinary. I'm slightly, I have to say, I am slightly disappointed. So am I. That nobody called in to claim their pork. I enjoyed all your email questions. Uh, please send more email questions. But if you can call in live, it gives me the opportunity to speak to you, which I enjoy. I'm, you know, I like talking over the phone. This is why I never answer emails, but I do speak over the phone if you can reach me. Uh, so next week, we're gonna be here live again. With Harold McGee. With Harold McGee. Harold McGee will be our telephone guest. He's not gonna be live in the studio, but he's gonna call in, and he'll be here answering your questions as well. So if you don't care what I have to say about your questions, perhaps you'll care about, uh, what Harold McGee has to say about your questions. And next week, the number will be the same, 718-497-2128. Uh, Cooking Issues Today has been brought to you by the Hearst Ranch. Hearst Ranch is the nation's largest single-source supplier of free-range, all-natural, grass-fed, and grass-finished beef. I'm Dave Arnold, and this is Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. Oh, you did that got me on this corner, and I don't know where I'm at.
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+[46:40,780] I'm Dave Arnold, and this is Cooking Issues Today has been brought to you by the Hearst Ranch.
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+[00:00,000] My name is Mackenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com. GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe.
+
+[01:20,280] You are listening to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold. We're coming to you on the Heritage Radio Network. The show Cooking Issues is a show where you call in and we solve your cooking issues, related or not. Today, Cooking Issues is sponsored by Acme Smoked Fish. Located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, Acme has been a mainstay in New York's culinary landscape for over 55 years. Using old world recipes, Acme produces the finest smoked salmon, white fish, and sable that discerning palates demand. For information on where to find Acme, Blue Hill Bay, or Ruby Bay products, visit www.acmesmokedfish.com. They actually supply most of the big places in the city, so even if you don't know you've had Acme, you've probably had Acme. Now, the number to call in to the radio show, we're here between 12 and 12.45 every Tuesday, is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And we already have our first caller for the day. Hello? We got Jordan on the line? Yeah, I'm right here. Hey, how you doing? So, what's your question? Hey, I'm doing pretty well. You know, so, I want to throw a barbecue for my wife's birthday, and I've been experimenting with just basically trying to cook ribs in a sous vide. I've got a sous vide supreme. Oh, okay. So, I've been experimenting with cooking the ribs in that, trying to get them to the point where they're, like, where they're fairly soft and yielding, and at the same time, they'll still stay on the bone. Because my plan is to basically keep them in the machine until guests arrive, and then I just want to finish them on the grill. Right. Right? Right. That's a good call. Well, may I just say, before we go any further, that you are in luck. For being the first caller today, you have won some Heritage Foods boneless barbecue riblets. No kidding. Yeah, no kidding. So, that should go pretty well with your barbecue. But, so, here's the thing. So, typically, when we're going to do a rib, you can do a rib at any temperature between about 54-4 Celsius, which is rare. I wouldn't recommend that because it's kind of weird. People aren't used to it. All the way up to a traditional temperature of, like, 80, but I would recommend something closer to 60. It's a little bit pink on the inside still, but it's, you know, it's really, it's a good, nice temperature. And, the good thing about cooking this way, and what we're talking about is low-temperature cooking, for those of you not aware, what we're doing is we're sealing the food in a bag, and we're using a water bath to very accurately keep the temperature and cook it for a long time. Now, one of the advantages of doing it this way, as opposed to traditional, that we've talked about, you know, the advantage you want, is that the meat's going to stay on the bone. It's not going to shred and break apart. So, you'll be able, even though it's very tender, and 60, I would do it for about 48 hours, 48 to 56 hours in that range. Okay, that's the part I was having trouble with. Is, I've got, you know, I was looking at some stuff from Baldwin and a couple other things online, and everybody was saying, oh yeah, you know, 12 to 24 hours tops for the ribs, and I just, they weren't coming out where I wanted them at all. You said 60 Celsius? 60, yeah. What temperature are you? It's about 140. Yeah, 140. 60 is like a magic number, because it's 140. It's easy to remember. What temperature were you using?
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+[04:51,340] Oh, I tried everything between about 135 to 155, but the factor that I was not getting right was the time to cook, and I was afraid if I left it that long. I was afraid if I left it, you know, 48 hours or more, I was concerned, number one, that I was going to lose some structural integrity in the bone itself, and number two, I was just, I was concerned it just wasn't going to stay on the bone. But you're saying that even at 48 hours, it's going to stick to the bone enough that I can toss it on the grill, it's not going to fall into the rack or anything. Absolutely. Let me put it to you this way, and we'll leave it at this. Right or wrong, after 24 hours, it had the texture of skirt steak? Awesome. Yeah, right, is that right? After 24 hours, it should have had the texture right about of skirt steak, and after another 24 to 30 hours, it'll have the texture of short ribs. Okay, yeah, that's much closer to what I'm looking for. Yeah. All right, super. Cool, man. Stay on the line, because we've got to figure out a way to get you these boneless barbecue riblets, and thanks so much for calling in. I think we already have another caller, so we're doing well. All right, so... What do you need, Mike? Hello? Hello? Hey. I have some questions about preserving cilantro. Essentially, every single time I buy it, it seems to turn into an unusable pile of mush, and all the aromatics just leave it pretty much right away. So I was wondering if there's a way to render it more stable. I don't have a Roto-Vap or anything, so I'm looking for a more conventional method. Right. Cilantro, actually, even in the Roto-Vap, when you Roto-Vap it, it doesn't stay stable. This is actually an interesting question. The next segment we have, Harold McGee's going to be on. He's done a lot of tests with preserving things like herbs and berries. My guess, the problem is, is that my guess is the way to do it is going to be like a quick blanching shock, but that's probably not what you're looking for. And the other one would be to keep the moisture level not too high so it's not going to rot, you know. Right. I do dry it. Yeah, so you're drying it and still... With a paper towel. Yeah, you dry it with a paper towel. I mean, you could physically dry it, but it's not the same as fresh. What I'm going to do is I'm going to defer this question, and Nastasha's going to remind me to ask McGee. Nastasha's going to ask me to remind McGee to answer this question, but I would guess he's going to say something of the nature of making sure air can get to it in your fridge so it's not going to turn bad, making sure that it's not wet when it goes in. He might say something even like allowing water to get to the stems, but I don't know. And he might suggest something like a blanche just to kill anything that's on it, which is what he does with berries. This is not my exact area of expertise, but you're lucky that McGee's going to be calling in today because it's right up his alley, so we'll make sure to ask him. Okay, well, actually, just beyond ironic, I mean, also, the aromatics on the plant are just so fleeting. It seems like no matter what you do to it that they're just going to leave pretty much right away. I know. It's true. You know, I've been doing a lot of experiments recently with, you know, when we rotovap, a lot of times I'll rotovap.
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+[07:44,020] For those of you who don't know, low-temperature distillation, we do it in a rotary evaporator. We do it with alcohol just because it's the only way to really lock down those aromatics, and when you do it with water, you really, those aromatics, they leave very quickly. We've recently been doing experiments with freezing with liquid nitrogen to try and keep those aromatics, and it works pretty well. But, you know, I'm not ready to necessarily make any statements on it. Do you have liquid nitrogen lying around?
+
+[08:07,520] No, I don't, but that doesn't mean I couldn't get some. Right. I mean, you could try. I mean, like, that might be good, keeping it ultra-frozen like that. Now, it's going to go black as soon as it thaws out unless you blanch it beforehand, but then you won't have the aromatics. So you're always going to trade because we do a lot of work with liquid nitrogen where we powder fresh herbs. When you powder the fresh herbs, when they thaw, even with liquid nitrogen, they go black because you've ruptured the – when you blend them, you rupture the tissues, and so they go black. You're going to get that characteristic not-so-good aroma, so what we'll always do is blanch in boiling water and shock, and then that'll preserve it. But you're still – you're going to lose some of that. I mean, I haven't – again, I'll ask McGee this, but, you know, it's very hard to get that fresh-off-of-the-plant kind of flavor. But this is – I'll bring up both of these things with McGee because I know he thinks a lot about this, specifically this problem, especially because he grows his own stuff because he lives in California, you know? Right.
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+[08:59,280] So I apologize. I'm going to have to defer to later in the segment, but we'll get an answer for you. Does that sound good? Wait, who am I speaking to, by the way? Yeah, absolutely. My name's Chris. Hey, Chris. Thanks for calling in. We'll get some answers for you before the hour's done. All right. Also, I just had a quick question about sous vide coffee. I've been just taking my coffee grounds and putting them into a bag and basically doing a high-duration, low-temperature. Right. Like around 68C. Similar to like Kyoto – so higher than like a cold coffee, higher than Kyoto-style coffee. Yeah, much higher than a cold coffee. But, you know, it sort of doesn't leach out all the astringency or anything like that, provided you don't do it for two days. Yeah. How do you like it? I like it a lot, actually. You know, it seems to strike a good balance as far as having a lot of coffee solids in there versus a lot of the nasty stuff that people don't like. And then you coffee filter it and drink it, or what do you do? Right, exactly. I just do a coarse filtration. Huh. Well, we'll test that out. I've done the cold, and I've done a lot of work with, you know, like espresso-type stuff, but I've never done any kind of in-between work. We've done it with tea. We've never done it with coffee. That's interesting. You know, you should post something to our forums, and let's get a discussion going on that. Now, I'll try and, you know, at www.cookingissues.com forward slash forums. Post something like that, because, you know, I think that's interesting. I'm sure a lot of the people, you know, who troll around will think that's interesting, too. Maybe we can get something started, huh? All right, great. All right, cool. Thanks a lot for calling in. All right, bye. Do we have another caller? We do? Yeah. Oh, hey, we have another caller. Great. Hello? Hi. Hey, who am I speaking with? This is Nathan. Hey, Nathan.
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+[10:33,380] So, I had a question. I remember a post you made a couple months ago, I guess, on cooking issues, about how carbonation was perceived. And you mentioned sort of offhand that you tried stuff that was carbonated, or not carbonated, but force gas with NO2. I'm wondering about other gases that you've tried dissolving in liquids and what that tasted like. All right, well, you know, N2O nitrous and CO2 are the two readily available gases that are soluble to a large degree in water. I don't, you know, and also alcohol, and also CO2 is very soluble in alcohol. And also, I don't know about CO2, but N2O, I guess CO2 as well, is also soluble in liquid fats. So, these are, you know, they're very soluble, which is why you can put a lot of it in and why you can get a big effect. Other gases, you know, other ones that I know of that, you know, are food-grade aren't as soluble. So, you're not going to get the same kind of – now, you could definitely get some sort of maybe aroma or flavor out of putting some gases in. And some noxious gases can clearly go in. But I haven't experimented with any other gases because, basically, you know, you get the effect of carbonation, which is what I'm looking for, out of the CO2. And then we use the nitrous as kind of a balancing act. So, if I want a lively beverage, I want a lot of bubbles in it. And the number of bubbles in it is determined by the total pressure dissolved gas in it because that's what's determining how fast it's bubbling, right? And also the bubble size for a given liquid and a bunch of other things. But if you added that much CO2, it would rip your face off. You know, your nose would be – we've had – I like, actually, overcarbonated things. But, you know, I like my face being ripped off. But the thing is, in order to make it a really lively beverage but more mellow, we add the N2O. The side effect of the N2O is that it's sweet, right? Now, there are situations – like, I'm sure people have heard of beer gas. So, beer gas is a mixture of CO2 and straight nitrogen. And the reason that they put the nitrogen in is because they want to keep their kegs at a high pressure so that they can push beer out at a reasonable rate. But they don't want to increase the bubble load by adding too much CO2. So, they're adding a relatively insoluble gas, right, nitrogen to it so that it can – so that it basically just adds extra pressure. I believe also it's nitrogen and not CO2 that's in the Guinness widget that's sitting in the bottom of the Guinness. And I think what's going on there is they're literally just forcing some bubbles into it to create kind of a creamy head even though they're not increasing the actual total amount of CO2 in it, right? So, there are reasons to use other gases, but I don't know anything that would help necessarily in a carbonation setting. Do you have any ideas of things you want to try? No, I was just wondering because you said, you know, CO2 is kind of sour tasting and 2O is kind of sweet tasting if there were any other things that would sort of give you other flavors without being boiling this, obviously. I'm sure we could put some, you know, sulfur-containing gases in that would dissolve in just fine, but it would make it taste god-awful. You know what I mean, but I haven't – you know, maybe someone will, you know, call in or post something they think is good to try. But they're the two readily available food-grade gases that dissolve to a fairly large degree into your, you know, into beverages. So, those are the ones – that's why we use them. Gotcha. Cool. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks for calling in. All right. So, that brings us pretty close. I'm going to talk about one thing before we go to our first break. But coming up on the next – right after the next break, Harold McGee is going to be here. He's going to help us answer some questions. One thing I wanted to address, we had an email question – oh, for your calls, by the way, please call in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
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+[14:24,080] So, we had a really interesting question come in via email. And don't worry. All the email questions we'll get to. So, don't worry if I'm not doing yours first. Someone called in Matt – how do you pronounce Matt's name? Hass? Hass? Hass? Hass? Hass? Hass.
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+[14:39,180] His restaurant group is using someone who grows their own cattle and is using ultrasound to check the marbling of the meat while they're alive. So, basically, you're taking a cow. They're putting an ultrasound on the cow and they're trying to measure the fat content of the cow. So, the idea is trying to get a higher percentage of prime marbled meat than you otherwise would and said he had never heard about this technique before and he wanted to know something about it, know about these guys running tests. This is kind of – I don't know how well – I don't know how often it's used nowadays but using ultrasound to test the fat level of animals has a fairly long history. They've been doing it since at least the 80s and there's a bunch of different ways. So, basically, lean muscle meat and fat have different properties for ultrasound. The speed of ultrasound – ultrasound is just basically any sound wave faster than you can hear over about 20,000 cycles per second and it can penetrate through tissue which is why they use it to check for babies, for ultrasounds and for medical diagnostic stuff. They can take pictures of it. But even simply without an image, you can tell based on the speed that the ultrasound is going through, whether it's going through more fat or more lean. You can tell because fat also reflects ultrasounds in different ways. It also can, I think, shift the frequency as it goes through. So, there's several different techniques they can use with ultrasounds to take a live animal in a very quick, easy-to-do way out in the field with a piece of machinery and take a picture and figure out kind of a best guess as to what the inside of the muscle is like in terms of its fat content.
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+[16:22,640] And for – in general, there's a lot of interesting work being done with ultrasounds and a review paper you might be interested in is Ultrasonic Innovations in the Food Industry from the Laboratory to Commercial Productions by Alex Patist et al. And that was in – what journal? The Journal for Innovative Food Science and Emerging Technologies in July 2007. Thanks for calling in. Please post a question to the blog on that. I'm interested in talking about ultrasound and meat quality more. And this is our first break. You're listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. Two, one, two, three.
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+[17:07,120] Everybody, let me tell you the news. Everybody, let me tell you the news. Everybody, let me tell you the news.
+
+[17:36,140] It's just a rhythm, man. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Hey, baby. Let me tell you the news. Let me tell you the news. Ain't too sharp One more time Ain't too sharp Ain't too sharp You're just used Let me dance I want a branch I've got to talk Just let me walk I've got to I've got to I've got to Tell you that Yeah, everybody Let me tell you that Yeah, everybody Let me tell you that Ain't too sharp
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+[19:27,960] Ain't too sharp Ain't too sharp You're just used I want to dance I've got to branch I want to feel Loving you You've got to feel Just got to We know it's another Yeah, you've got to feel Give it to me
+
+[19:57,960] Riblets Hello, it's Dave Arnold You are listening to Cooking Issues On Heritage Radio Network The show where you call in With your cooking issues And if we're lucky We get to solve them Our number here is 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128 And we're coming to you live Every Tuesday From 12 to 1245 Eastern Standard Time And we have a real treat today Because calling in As our call-in guest Is Harold McGee And Harold McGee For those of you That don't know There's probably a couple Of you that don't know Is the ultimate All-time master blaster Of science As it relates to Delicious things in the kitchen So not industrial science But the science Of how to make things Taste better And he's calling in From San Francisco Harold, are you there? I am Dave Hey, good to talk to you How are you doing? Likewise Pretty well, thanks How about you? Yeah, I'm doing well Doing well So actually, you know Harold, we have a caller Calling in right now So you want to just Take their question real quick And then we'll Hit some of the email Questions we've got Sure Alrighty So who do we have? We have Derek on the line Hi Dave Hey Great to talk to both of you Big fans Both you Dave and Harold I was thinking the other day Would it Would you get more flavor Out of your stocks If you started with Distilled water Because it tends to It pulls in stuff Such as carbon dioxide Would it be more Would it pull in more flavor From whatever meat Or what you were using As the base? Do you think? Harold, what do you think? I wouldn't think you'd get Much of an effect Because it's going to become Non-distilled water Pretty quick As soon as you put stuff Into it And you typically What do you think, Harold? I agree completely Yeah There's I mean It's distilled And nice and pure But the moment you put Anything in it It's not And the difference Between I think You know A few parts per million Of minerals In tap water And distilled water By the time you've Made the stock Is not going to be detectable I mean Maybe it depends also On how hard Your particular water is I mean The Japanese chefs Insist that there's A huge difference In kombu stocks If the water Is excessively hard And so they say That you know The European water It's hard for them To make a good Kombu stock So they use Bottled water And of course For beer brewing It's important But I just I don't I don't know That for regular stock Right, Harold? I mean Wouldn't you think I mean Yeah, the thing about kombu Is that it's so delicate And you're extracting For a relatively short Period of time You know Just a few minutes And so I think You know Something where you're Throwing in Meat bones And vegetables And cooking for hours It's going to be Much less important Of course You know If you do the experiment You taste them blind And you You know Get back to us We'll post it Because You know There's no I always say that You know Whatever I think Is you know Secondary to what You actually observe When you do it Awesome Alright Exactly Alright Well thanks so much For calling in And before we go To anyone else Harold I don't know If you heard Before We had someone Calling you And wanted to Preserve the The kind of The aromatics In cilantro And I said That you might Be the best Person to talk To about The best way To keep Cilantro In top condition To try and Make it smell Like you just Took it out Of your garden Do you have Any tips On that? Boy It's tough With fresh herbs Because Those flavor Compounds Are really fugitive And the cells Are delicate And when they Dry out You know Everything gets Scrambled up Inside the cells And in the case Of cilantro You know The more that You beat it up If you try to Make a pesto For example The flavor Actually becomes Much milder And so What you want To do I think Probably is Just dry it As gently As possible Just to Minimize the Damage to the Cells Right He says He was Doing it With a Paper towel But also I think People store It too Tightly A wrap You almost Want those Like those Bags that Allow air To go Through them Right Because I Think he's Also having Loss in The refrigerator I think He said They were Turning brown And kind Of muddy You know What do You think Well yeah I think You know If it's A matter Of keeping It alive You know By preserving I thought You meant You know Drying Or something Like that If you Just want To keep Them alive Then yeah What I would
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+[24:35,260] The stems To get A fresh End And then Put them In a glass Of water And then Put a bag Around the Glass Right You know Put a Rubber band Around the Bag And that Gives you It prevents The cilantro From drying Out in the Refrigerator Keeps them Cool Gives them The supply Of water They're not Going to be Happy in the Dark So that Won't last Forever But it's Better than Nothing And there You go There's the Answer From the Source We got Another Interesting One That I Think Is up Your Alley Harold Jeff Salts Writes In Wrote To Nastasha You know We Take Email Questions As well And says If we can whip Cream with sugar And we can whip Egg yolks with sugar Then why can't We whip Creme anglaise And just to verify This morning Before we came out To the show I tried to whip Some creme anglaise And indeed It does not whip You know I also know That there's some Problems Sometimes people Have problems Whipping Even straight cream That's been Heated I mean What do you What do you Think What do you Think's Going on here Well in the Case of the Creme anglaise It's true That cream Can be Can be whipped And egg yolks And egg whites Can both be Whipped into a Foam But that's True of The raw Versions Of those Things Creme anglaise Has been Cooked So And in the Case of Cream With cream It only Whips If it's Cold So The conditions Aren't right The proteins Have been Denatured And the Temperature Is wrong But I Didn't I mean I took The creme Anglaise And cooled It down To like Back to Fridge Temperature Still Doesn't Whip There's Something About Heating Cream And then Cooling it That made Do you need To wait A long Time What are You disrupting In cream That stops It from Whipping Like that Boy With cream All by Itself I mean In a Creme Anglaise Of course The cream Is The surfaces Of the Oil Droplets Are going To get Coated By the Egg Proteins And by You know Whatever else You might Have in There Sugars In the Way So it's Just going To make It much More Difficult In the Case of Just plain Old cream Heating it And then Cooling it Back down Offhand I can't See why That would Make it Harder To whip Yeah I mean I've never Done the Experiment Myself But I Know People Who have Done It And said That They Were Able
+
+[26:51,720] Where that Is But I know That The fat Inside the Droplet Takes a While to Get organized Again after It's been Heated You know You heat It up It becomes Molten Inside And then As you Chill it Down It begins To crystallize And I Think Maybe It just Takes a While For you To get That The optimum Crystal Structure So that When you Whip At the Edges Of the Crystals Break Through The Membrane And Begin to Stick to Each Other And You Get A Good Foam That Makes Sense Almost Like The Theory Of Aging Ice Cream Base Right Yeah Yeah All right Jeff Well I Hope that Answers Your Question Let me See Whether We Have Anything Ah Here's One That Harold You'll Enjoy Val Called In And said I love The radio Show I'm Traveling To Turkey In Three Weeks I Was Wondering If You Had Any Suggestions As to Where I Could Find Some Good Celep Donderma Flour In Turkey And For Those Of You That Know Like Part Of The Current Interest In Celep Here In The United States Is Due To An Article That That Harold Wrote A Number Of Years Ago In The New York Times On Stretchy Ice Creams And Celep Is An Orchid Powder That Is Available In Turkey But Can't Be Exported Because It's Not That It's In Danger But They Don't Allow exports Of It And If You Add This To Ice Cream And Beat The Ice Cream Vigorously It Forms A Stretchy Stretchy Ice
+
+[28:27,800] From Me What About You Harold Do You Know Of Any I've Never Been To Turkey Either So Yeah I Don't I Really Don't Know Yeah There Are A Couple Of People Who Who Blog Who Know Turkey And The Middle East In General Really Well And Who Blog And You Might Check Their Sites And Ask Them One Of Them Is Anissa Helou A N I S S H E L-O-U I Forget The Name Of Her Site But She Knows That Part Of The World Really Really Well And She Could Probably Give You Some Good Advice Right And It's Important To Get A Good Source Because Different Salad Powders Are Very Different In How Much Of The Active Principle They Have In It And You Know Also They Sell Some It's Just Meant For For Drinks And
+
+[29:23,920] Interns And They Packed It One Time Though My Intern's Mom Got Stopped In The Airport For Coming From Turkey With A Vacuum Bag Thing Of Powder And Spent Three Hours Talking To A Very Irate Customs Official About How It Was Not Any Sort Of Drug Product They Were Trying To Bring In And It Didn't Make It In But I Would Get As Much As You Can You
+
+[29:53,920] Need To Buy And Val Asks One More Question What Would The Results Be With Salop Ice Cream If You Frozen And Spun In A Paco Jet Alas This Will Not Work The Paco Jet I've Never Had Any Luck Trying To Paco Jet It It Needs To Be Manually Beaten After It's Frozen You Need To Manually Freeze It And Then Manually Beat It And That's The
+
+[30:23,920] Bits And That's The Absolute Reverse Of What You Want To Do With Salop Ice Cream You Want To Create This Network Like A Gluten Network In Bread Dough And That's What Gives It That Wonderful Stretchy Quality All Right So We're About To Go Out To Our Second Break Before We Do I'm Going to Give You The Number To Call In One More Time 718 497 2128 That's 718 497 2128 We're Coming Back With Harold McGee This Is Cooking Issues
+
+[31:14,540] Let's Keep Me Up Time Gotta Shape The Bigger Mama Keep Me Up Time Too Much You Know You're Out Of Sight Hey The Way You Do The Things You Do The Way You Kiss Me Too The Way You Do The Things You Do The Where You Kiss Me Tear My Heart Delight That's What You Know You're Out Of Sight You Got A Sweet Disposition You Always Right You Got A Sweet Disposition You Know You Know You're Always Fine You Know Just What You're Doing Baby You Know You're Out Sight You're Too Much You're The In You're So Him Baby You Are Listening To Cooking Issues On Heritage Radio Network I am Dave Arnold I'm Here In the Studio With Nastasha Lopez And On The Telephone We Have Harold McGee So You Have One Last Chance To Call In At 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128 Now Sweeten We We Will Give Away Another Packet Of Riblets If You Call In Anyway So Harold We Have A Couple More Email Questions We Have To Get Through So Why Don't We Take Take Care Of Those She We Had Someone Call In Actually Last Week Or Write In Last Week Who Is Interested In Doug Baldwin Formula For Calculating When Meat Is Going To Be Done I Know You You've Done Some Work On It So Douglas Baldwin Has This Kind Of Rather Complex Well Not For Him Because He's A Math Professor But Complex Formula For Determining The Heat Of When Meat Is Going To Get
+
+[33:39,220] What Do You Think Is The Best Thing Is Just Cook A Couple Of Things And Get A Feel For The Size Of Thing And Then Just Go That Way What Do You Think Yeah I Agree It Is True That You Can Calculate How Long It's Going To Take For Something To Heat Up In A Water Bath And It Takes A Lot Longer Than You Think Because The Difference Between The Temperature Of The Bath And The Temperature Of The Food Is Relatively Small And That Means That You Know There's Not Much Of A Push Behind The Heat On The Outside So It Takes Quite A While But The Calculations Great They Can't Account For All The Variables That You're Going To Encounter Like Variations In The Thickness Of The Meat And The Effect Of The Wrapping Whether If The Wrap Isn't Perfectly Sealed If You've Got A Couple Bubbles Here And There It's Going To Slow Things Down So I Agree The Best Thing To Do Is Just To Have Several Packages And Check Every Once In A While Give Them A Good Long Time And Maybe Use The Formulas As A Guide But Test It Yeah I've Never Had Really Much Of A Need To Know Exactly How Long It's Going To Take But Also Nathan Mirvold Posted A Bunch Of Things A Number Of Years Back On E-Gullet Oh I See We Have Another Caller Who Do We Have On The Line Hello Yeah Hi How You Doing I'm A Chef Working On The East Coast And I Have A Couple Of Questions About Sous vide Cookery Into A Couple Specific Situations We're In Right Now That We're Trying To Fine Tune Right I Don't Want To Mention Anything Specific Because We're Still Operating Under The Radar Right Right So Right Now We're Working With A Couple Different Cuts Of Meat Some Have Been Really Successful Some We're Still Trying To You Know They're Very Good But They Still Could Be A Better Right Right Now We're Working With A Thick Cut Pork Chop Which Is Kind Of Cut From The Shoulder End So It Has A High Fat Content And You Know We Try Cooking It Around 52 54 Degrees Celsius Or Anywhere Between 4 Hours 12 Hours Up To 24 Hours And The Problem Is That The Fat Isn't Breaking Down In An Appealing Way You
+
+[36:05,560] And It Would Be Very Palatable And You Know At Those Low Temperatures It Would Just Kind Of Be Like Hammy And You Know Just Not Have A Nice Mouth Feel So We Upped The Temp Up To 70 Degrees Too High And We Ran It With A Thermocoupler Just To Check The Temp We Pull It At 54 Degrees And That Was Better Yeah But Still That Too High Right Yeah Exactly Yeah It Was Still A Little Like It Got A Little Hammy You Know It Wasn't Perfect Then We Brought It Down To 64 Degrees And That Was Kind Of A Nice You Medium We Were Kind Of Happy With That And We Just Basically Would Run It In The Thermocoupler Until We Hit 54 Degrees Celsius On The Inside So I Was Any Comments On That Or Any Ideas Directions We Can Go So Low temp That's Not Going to Really Render Out When You're Cooking Low temp And That's Kind Of One Of The Main Things To Work Around When You're Doing This Kind Of Work And In Fact Harold Will Agree That's One Of Things You You Don't Particularly like Some Of These Dishes Because We Don't Get Things Like The Like
+
+[37:16,700] Pre-Sear On The Meat That's Going To Start Getting The Flavor Going And Also You Notice You're Going To Pick Up A lot More Color A lot Quicker On The Finish But You Might Do Something We Do Called Low temp For Insurance Purposes And So What That Is You Cook The Meat To A Medium Like You Want The Inside To Be Whatever You Want To Be You Know 50 High 50 And Change Or Like 60 Somewhere In There Right You Cook It Through Then You Chill The Whole Thing Down Then You Throw It In A Blazing Hot Oven Right Now You're Just Focused On The External Texture Of The Chop And You Can Pull It As Soon As It Looks Good Because The Inside Has Already Been Cooked And It's Going To Be Warm Enough And So This Way You Can Serve Something Where You Get A lot Of The Benefits Reproducibility You Know Fairly Quick Turnaround Time On A Pork Chop That You Would And Get More Of A Traditional Flavor Out Of It Where You Know But Still Get Some Of The Benefits Of Low Temperature And So This Works A lot On Bigger Cuts Or Things Like That Where You Just Want
+
+[38:25,200] Lowest Temperature You Want Cool It Down And Take It From Normal In A Hot Oven And Just Get That Outside Where You Want It I Think You Might Be Happy With The Results Because A lot Of Times We Want A more Traditional Tasting Especially On Something Like A pork Chop What
+
+[38:55,200] To Try Yeah I Be I Be Careful With The Lower Temps Like 52 54 Here's Why I Mean Will You Kill Bacteria Down There Yeah Probably But One Of The Issues Is When You Load up A Circulator And You Hit Those Fairly Low Temperatures If The Circulator Is Crowded At All Sometimes The The Pieces Of Meat That Are Near Each Other They Be Shielded From The Temperature For Long Enough At Those Low Temperatures That You'll Get Lactic Acid Bacteria Growing In So If You'll Look In The People Who Post On Sous V You'll Notice People Saying Oh My Thing Smelled Like Sauerkraut My Thing Smelled Like Blue Cheese And It's Because They're Not Killing The Lactic Acid Bacteria Fast Enough So When You're Doing Those Low Temperatures I Would Recommend A Quick Dunk Of The Bag Into Maybe Into Simmering Water Just To Kill All The Lactic Acid Bacteria That Are On The Outside And And Then Go From There If You're Having That Problem I Know That Some People Are Having That Problem And Just Real Quick I Know You Have A lot To Cover But Do You Have Any Sort Of Guideline Basic Temperatures That
+
+[40:06,000] What's Your Brazing Temperature I Do A Lot Of Brazes At 60 Because The Lower Ones People Don't Really They Want Their Brazes Much Lower Than That And When I Go Higher Than About 63 I Start Feeling Like I'm Losing The Advantages At Low Temperature So I Tend To Stay In That Range But The Best We Have Cooking Charts If You Go To Cooking Issues Dot Com And Look Up Low Temp Charts There's A chart That Has Basically All Of Our Temperatures On It Temperatures And Times That We Work With Yeah And That's That's Pretty That's Pretty Up To Date So I Would Check That Out And Then Let Let Let Let Let Let Let Just Knock Something Out Real Quick Harold Before Because I Want Talk To You Something About Because Harold And I Are Going To Tales Of The Cocktail Oh Wait We Have Another Caller So I Can't Talk About Tales Of The Cocktail All Right We Have Another Caller Coming In Harold Okay Hello Okay How How are You Man All Right I'm Here To Ask You A Question All Right So I Know You Are Talking Sous-Vide But I Don't Have A Sous-Vide At Home Right But I Do Have An Oven Okay So My Entree Into Kind Of The Technical Side Of Cooking Has Been To Kind Of Fudge It At Home Right I'm Trying To I Brine My Meat Usually Before I Roast It So Are You Familiar With This River Cottage Meat Book Yes I Have In The River Cottage Meat Book He'll Talk About How He Describes A Two Part Roasting Process One At Like 425 And Then It Comes Down 50 75 Degrees For Like The Longer Roast To Cook Through Right You Know To Make The Crust And Then To Cook The Meat Through Right So But I Found At Home After Brining That It Didn't Work What I've Been Doing Is Roasting A Chicken The Whole Time At The Same Temperature So I Wanted To Know What What You Guys Thought About That Two Temperature Versus One Temperature And About That Process Because I've Been Getting A Good Brown On The Meat And Cooking It All The Way Through With A Lot You Know The More Technique I Applied To It The Worse The Results Got All Harold Okay Well My Feeling Is That You Can Get A Good Result In A Lot Of Different Ways And It Just Depends On The Details Of What You Do And What You're Looking For In The End So The High Temp Followed By Low Temp Is Pretty Standard Way Of Doing Things Gives You That Initial Blast Of High Temperature Starts The Browning On The Surface And Then You Turn The Heat Down To Cook It Through More Gently If You Left It At The High Temperature Too Long Then You'd End Up Over Cooking The Outside While The Inside Was Still Cooking Through But With Something Like A Chicken Which Is Relatively Small And Which Cooks Relatively Quickly I Find That You Can Get Good Results With All Sorts Of Techniques You Can Stick Chicken In At 500 Degrees And Its Done Really Quickly And It Comes Out Pretty Juicy Because Even Though The Outside Temperature Is So High The Rapidity Of The Cooking Means That You End Up With A Reasonably Juicy Inside You Can Also Cook At A Low Temperature When You Say That You're Cooking At The Same Temperature Constantly Is It Like 400 Degrees 375 It's Like 350 375 Right In There Yeah And Put It In Like 45 Minutes And You're Happy With The Browning That You Get On The Skin It Works Because I Think The Brine The Brine And Then The Drying After The Brine Allows It To Brown Easier Yeah So You Take It Out Of The Brine And What Do Do Let It Sit In The Fridge For A Day To Dry I Brine It Overnight And Then In The Morning You Know With My Cereal I'll Take It Out And Dry It Dry It And When I Come Home Make It For Dinner Yeah So That's The Those Are The Little Details That Can Make All The Difference In The World If You If You Brine Without The Drying Then You're Going to End Up With A Soggy Chicken At 400 Degrees Or 375 And You Really Need That High Temperature To Bake Out The Moisture And Get The Browning Going But If You've Already Pre-dried It Then That's Not An Issue And Then It Forms That Kind Of Pellicle You Know And It Gets Brown There The Skin Gets Kind Of Clear And Tacky My Other Question To You Is If You're Cooking That At 500 Really High Really Fast Do You Have To Rest It Then Like Is There Tin Foil Is There Do You Have To I Mean How Does It Cook Through That Fast Resting It
+
+[45:11,000] Parts Of The Bird Have Gotten Pretty Hot And It Is A Chance For The Juices To Kind Of Redistribute You Know They Have Been Squeezed Out But They Haven't Exited The Muscle Completely And So They Can Kind Of Settle In And Find The Dry Spots And Redistribute And Give You Something More Evenly Juicy Okay Well Thanks You Answer I Was Just Feeling Guilty Because
+
+[45:41,000] Felt That Somehow I Was Being Unfaithful And Now I Realize That The Drying Made All The Difference Yeah Yeah I Mean You Only Owe Your Faith To A Delicious Result Exactly Exactly The Proof Is In The Pudding All Right Thanks For Calling In And We Have Very Short Amount Of Time I Got To Knock Two Things Out With You Harold We Got A Follow Up And This Is Right Up Your Alley Chris Who Called In Before About The Cilantro Just Sent Us A Text Saying I Realized I Forgot To Mention That I Had Some Luck Preventing Rot By Washing With Aqueous Ozone It's Really The Stabilization Of The Flavor Itself That I'm After And He Thinks Maybe It's Decanal And It's So Dan Fleeting Even In Totally Unrotten Bunches Anything To Say About That Well It Just Speaks To The Variability Among People And Their Sensitivity To These Aroma Compounds Because There Are People Who Can't Come Within A Mile Of A Bunch Of Cilantro Without Smelling The Tiniest Quantities So It May Just Be That He Is He Loves The Aroma But Is Less Sensitive To It And So It's Going To Be Harder To Find A Bunch With Enough Of The Stuff To Really Make An Impact For Him All right And Then We Have One Quick Question That Came In I Promise I Get To All The Early E-mail Ones He Scott From Your Home San Francisco Wants To Know How To Make A Foam To Put On Top Of His Dirty Martini With An Olive Brine Based On A Drink He Had At The Bazaar In Los Angeles And Just Wants To Know Some Basic Pointers Can You Do It With Stuff From The Supermarket Yes I Would Get Yourself Some Lethocin The Granulated Kind And Or Xanthan Gum And Or A Combination I Would Not Add Any More Than About A Quarter Percent Or So Of Xanthan You Can Actually Add A Little More But I Wouldn't Add Much More And Anything Up To About Half To Three Quarters Of Percent Of Lecithin Put A Stick Blender Into The Mixture Hold It At An Angle So That The Blade Of The Stick Blender Is Going In And Out Of The Liquid And That's Going To Cause The Bubbling And Frothing And You Should Be A Foam If Not Just Post A Question To The Forums Or To Cooking Issues And And We'll Answer It Harold And I Are Actually Going To A Couple Days Actually Going To To Tales Of
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+[48:16,520] One More Cocktail Related Thing If You Want To Come Learn High Tech Cocktail Stuff Including Some Home Friendly Things From Me Personally And Nils My The Head Of The French Culinary And My Partner In Crime Here We're Doing A Class On June 28th At The French Culinary Institute At 6pm Sadly We're Out Of Time And I'm Really Upset Because Harold I Had A Bunch Of Interesting Stuff To Talk To You About With New Rotary Evaporation Breakthroughs That We Made Just Yesterday But I Guess I Have To Yeah Turns Out I Think I Might Have A Way To Do Really Delicious Distillations Water Based And Then Add It To Alcohol Quickly To Try And Keep The Aroma In I Found That Like I Can With Liquid Nitrogen I Can I Can Basically Even Though Water Based Distillations Are Normally Not So Flavorful So Fleeting That If I Use A Cold Finger With Liquid Nitrogen Do My Distillation That Way And Then Immediately Melt It Into Alcohol That I Get A Very Good Result But I Was Hoping To Talk To You About That On The Radio But Alas We Are Out Of Time So Harold I Hope You Enjoyed Calling In I Enjoyed
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+[49:27,440] Listening To Cooking Issues On Harry's Radio Network Brought To You By Acme Smoked Fish Thank You
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+[00:00,000] You are listening to Cooking Issues, coming to you live every Tuesday from noon to 1245 on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, the host of Cooking Issues. I'm here with Nastassia Lopez. We're from the French Culinary Institute. We're here to answer all of your cooking questions. Call in at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. For those of you that don't know us, we specialize in technical kinds of cooking questions, pieces of equipment, new techniques, new ingredients, but we're interested in basically any food-related question you have.
+
+[00:56,320] Today's show is brought to you by the Fairway Markets. No matter where you live in New York City, you're probably pretty close to a Fairway Market. I believe that we're actually being sponsored by Steve Jenkins from Fairway, who's one of the great cheesemongers in all of the country, probably, that Fairway has and has had for many, many years. An amazing selection of cheeses, a great selection of meats and other produce. Fairway like no other market.
+
+[01:20,260] All right, Nastasia, so you want to start off before we answer any questions with kind of what we've been doing over the past week or so? Well, you've been gone for a while. Right. Well, I just got back from New Orleans. New Orleans every year has this event called Tales of the Cocktail, where a good chunk of the bar industry in the United States heads down to New Orleans in the middle of summer when it's piss hot and humid and gets horribly, horribly drunk over the course of a couple of days, all in the interest of theoretically learning more about, you know, how to prepare fine drinks and a lot about the history of fine drinks. I was down there doing a seminar called The Science of Stirring, which was a follow-up to our smash hit last year, The Science of Shaking. Basically, I was there with Evan Clem, who is the head of beverage for Be Our Guest. You know, they do Dos Caminos restaurants here in the city. He serves something like 8,000 margaritas on Cinco de Mayo, and Thomas Waugh from Death & Co., which was, you know, just, I guess this year, just won like best bar in the universe at Tales of the Cocktail or something like that. Best cocktailist in the universe, something like that. Like a bunch of best in the universe kinds of things. Anyway, this year we were investigating how stirring, you know, what is the basic science behind stirring a cocktail? And the interesting things about it, I'll talk about it for a minute, is last year when we did shaking, the fundamental thing we learned about shaking was that it really, your shaking style doesn't make that much of a difference in terms of the temperature and the dilution of the drink when you're done. Also, the ice doesn't make that much of a difference. Assuming there's not a lot of water on the ice doesn't make that much of a difference within reason. And that's good news for people, especially at home, because it means that they can make a decent quality drink without being basically the Yoda of the shake.
+
+[02:58,680] You know, as long as they, you know, do a relatively decent job and they shake, you know, for about, you know, 12 to 15 seconds, they're going to, you know, get fundamentally this similar dilution every time they do it. Stirring, unfortunately, is a lot more complicated because stirring is not as efficient as shaking and chilling. So the first rule of all cocktails, by the way, especially in bars where the ice that they're using in the bar is almost always right at the melting point. It's not from the freezer. And by the way, even if you use ice that's in a freezer, you think you're winning a lot because it's a lot colder than ice that's, you know, been sitting out. You don't actually win that much because ice doesn't have that much extra energy in it stored in the form of temperature. Most of it is given when it melts. It's the melting of ice that really does most of the chilling and dilution. So the fundamental rule of cocktails is there is no dilution without chilling and there is no chilling without dilution. They're related. And so because stirring is less effective than shaking and chilling, you actually can alter the drink greatly by how much you stir it. So while a cocktail, when you shake, it only takes about 12, 15 seconds to reach equilibrium, a stirred cocktail can take up to a minute or longer. Okay. So with that, that's what I was doing for the past week. And if you want to call in with any more questions about stirring, we're going to put a blog post up pretty soon on, you know, with all kinds of nice pretty charts and graphs on stirring fast, stirring slow, stirring with big ice, stirring with crappy ice, yada, yada, yada.
+
+[04:29,920] Anyway, so, you know, that's what we've been up to. Now, I'm going to take some of the questions that we had emailed to us over the past week. Michael Natkin, the author of herbivoracious.com, which is a vegetarian recipe blog, asks a very interesting question.
+
+[04:43,680] He says, why do some things taste better the next day? For instance, tomato sauces, lentil soup, and stews. And he says, the conventional wisdom is that the flavors marry when it's left overnight, but that doesn't really seem very well defined. So first of all, is this true? He asks. And if it is true, then, you know, why? Can we pinpoint anything specific from a chemical standpoint of why that's the case? Well, this is an extremely interesting question. The short answer is, yes, some foods do taste better, you know, after they've been sitting for a while, but some taste noticeably worse. In the vegetable world, for instance, potatoes can, when they're stored, take on an off flavor that's, you know, perceived as kind of cardboardy. And same with meats can take on, although you don't care because you're a vegetarian recipe blog, but certain meats can take on a flavor called warmed over flavor when they've been chilled and reheated.
+
+[05:35,680] And what's happening in those cases, when things taste bad, is that there's an oxidation, a fat oxidation going on. So, you know, there's certain, you know, polyunsaturated fats in there that are being oxidized to create kind of these off-carbordy, rancid, warmed over flavors in certain potatoes and in certain meats when they're reheated and stored in the presence of oxygen. And a vacuum bag can kind of ameliorate those problems. Now, the problem of things actually tasting better and changing is a lot more complicated. So, certain foods that people think taste better when they're reheated, like, for instance, pizza, if you reheat it properly, is because let's say the person who made it didn't have their dough balanced quite right and water migrated to the crust, right? So, now your crust is floppy. If you reheat it properly, you can re-crisp the crust and it's actually crisper than it used to be because there's less water in the crust. So, you can get a crisper crust. So, in certain pizzas, you can actually get a better product when you reheat it versus when you had it the first time. Lasagna is another thing pointed to. Often, people say, well, lasagna tastes better. Lasagna, as it's cooling, the pasta presumably can then re-absorb more water than it could. It absorbs water out of the sauce. The sauce becomes more concentrated. That's one effect, so it's going to taste, you know, good upon reheating. A secondary effect with strong-flavored sauces, like tomato, like stews, like soups, is that these sauces have lots of high notes in the volatiles that kind of can stick out. Now, these volatiles can flash off when it's cooling and flash, you know, flash off again when it's re-warming, and this can basically create an evening-out effect of the flavor. But even more so, as it's being stored in the fridge, the actual levels of the different volatiles can change as they're degraded or, you know, broken up or hydrolyzed in the food as it's being stored. And what's interesting is that the breakdown of these volatile compounds, a lot of them are created when the food is cooked, right? And they react a different way when they're on the heat than they do when they're in the fridge. So, you get a different kind of breakdown of these compounds, and then when you reheat it, you're breaking more down again, and basically, you can cause a leveling off of these volatiles. So, there's, and I was hard-pressed this morning, I was looking to try and find some specific papers on it so I could cite some for you, but I couldn't. But this is my feeling, my memory, I should say, of what's going on in the situation. You know, and that's aside from any actual kind of effect they have where, you know, maybe the spice didn't penetrate to the center of a bean, let's say. And when you let it sit overnight, it does. So, there's many, many multiple effects going on. It's actually quite a complicated process, but yes, certain foods can taste better, and certain foods can taste worse. Okay. So, hopefully that answers that question. I have another one.
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+[08:30,040] Someone says, my mom wants, anonymous, by the way, my mom wants to know if she can put a frozen piece of meat into a crock pot. Yes. Yes, you can. So, here's what happens, and I believe we have another question on freezing that I'm going to deal with later, but freezing is fundamentally a dehydration technique. So, what happens is, when water freezes, it freezes into ice that's pure water. So, you have water that's bound in cells. That water basically crystallizes out and freezes as crystals. Okay. So, the ice that forms is basically removed from either between the cells or in the cells of your meat. It's fundamentally, or whatever product you're freezing, it's fundamentally a dehydration process. Now, super rapid thawing, in certain cases, can prevent certain foods, like meats, that might reabsorb that liquid from reabsorbing them. Also, improperly frozen things that have a lot of damaged cells in them will not reabsorb the liquid, and you can tell a good quality frozen product from a bad quality frozen product because you'll see a lot more what's called drip loss. You'll see a lot of liquid flowing out of the product as it's thawing, right? That's the hallmark of an improperly frozen thing. Now, certain things, you just can't help it. Like berries, that's going to happen unless you have some very good freezing technology like liquid nitrogen. Because the faster you freeze it, the less damage there is to what within reason. I mean, if you freeze it too fast, it turns brittle and shatters. But that's, you know, that's another story. Now, when you're cooking something in a crock pot, right? A crock pot is fairly gentle in that it doesn't scorch foods, but it's also fairly high heat. You're going to basically cook the heck out of that meat, and you're going to cook it so long that you're going to cook all that water out anyway. And you're getting the juiciness out of the sauce that it's cooking in, and you're getting the juiciness out of the gelatin that it's cooking in. So there's absolutely no reason why you can't sear your meat from frozen if you want to do that, and then throw it in a crock pot and go from there. You're going to cook it for a long time. It's not going to throw off your cooking times that much unless the meat is very, very thick. And so I think that's fine practice, and it's definitely going to save you some time.
+
+[10:37,340] Another anonymous question came in, I want to know if it's true that putting your face in front of a microwave is going to damage you. Well, this is an interesting question. I've had this question asked many times, and as someone that has done many unauthorized things to microwave ovens, I'm somewhat qualified to answer this question. You'll notice that the inside of your microwave is all metal, okay, and that there's a shield, a grate over the front door of the microwave that's also made out of metal and it's perforated with little holes. Now, those little holes are specifically designed to not allow microwaves through. So even though you can see the light, the light is a very much shorter wavelength than microwaves. So light can make it through without a problem, but the microwaves cannot at all. In fact, even if those holes were a good bit larger, like the size of a pencil, you still wouldn't get appreciable radiation through that. Now, if you have a microwave, microwaves have that metal perforated sheet, and then they also have usually a plastic or glass sheet in front of that perforated sheet. And what that's doing is that stops you from putting your eyes directly against that metal grate. If you put your eyes directly against that metal grate, you will have some microwave energy that can make it through those little holes for very, very short distances. I'm talking very short distances. So I do not recommend removing the metal grate and then putting your eyeballs against the perforated sheet. Now, it is true that certain microwaves, if the latch fails or they have problems with their gasketing and their door material such that basically the microwaves can leak out and there's not a good grounding between all the different parts, then yes, you can get some leakage of microwaves. They make basically microwave detectors, which are just meters that sense whether there's microwave radiation. You can walk around your microwave and see whether or not it's leaking. If you're paranoid about these things, they're not that expensive. You can get one. And I used one once when I did a lot of modifications to a microwave and wanted to make sure I wasn't going to turn anyone's eyeballs into poached eggs. Because once the protein in your eyes goes white from being denatured, it's end of story. This actually used to happen. Microwaves are very similar to radar technology. In fact, the old story, my grandfather, before he retired, was a radar technician, not technician, engineer, built radars, including radars for Air Force jets back in the day. And the old story was that an engineer at Raytheon figured out, and it's probably apocryphal, but figured out the microwave oven because he was working on a radar unit, and the candy bar in his pocket melted. And he was like, ah, that's interesting. Candy bar in my pocket melted, and then it kind of all went from there. But I believe that there's also been cases, and I don't know whether it's just to scare the crap out of me, that people have stared down an old school radar, continuous way radar thing, and been blinded and all this other stuff. So anyway, I hope that answers your question.
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+[13:34,980] Okay, let's take one, what? We have two more minutes. Oh, we have two more minutes? All right, well, maybe I shouldn't take a complicated question before I go to break. I will say that I hope you call in. Our number is 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Or you can email Nastassia at? Lopez.N-A-S-T-A-S-S-I-A at gmail.com. Right, and we're going to try to handle all of your cooking-related questions. When we get back, we'll answer some more questions, and I will talk about the weird variety meats that we've been cooking.
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+[14:16,740] How you feel, brother? Feeling good. You feel good? Feeling good. I pray so much, bone brother. How you feel, man? I feel all right. I'll call your name. I don't want no people to know you're in here. How you feel, brother? Hey, jam. Sure did in time. Look at him. We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. We're going to have a bunk a good time. Let's take him up, Fred. We've got to take you higher. All right. You want to do it again? You want to do it again? Yeah, let's do it again. We've got to take you higher. Yeah. Brother. Yeah. Now, I want everybody to let bread blow up by two courses. And then I want to wave you in. Let's go and do that with this now. All right. All right. All right. I'm going to get that fella with the little horn over there. See how James horns on me? This is Dave Arnold, and you're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Heritage Radio Network. Call in with your cooking-related questions, or at this point, any questions. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
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+[15:46,520] Okay. So we have a question in from Greg Krekelberg, and he asks actually some very complicated technical questions. He wants to know – the first question actually is a little easier to deal with. He says, what can a home cook do to freeze foods or sauces that will break when you freeze them? I mean, he wants to know, should I add gelatin, agar, starches, fats, blah, blah, blah. And liquid nitrogen is one of them. I like, Greg, that you're saying a home-friendly technique for doing this is to use liquid nitrogen. I really appreciate that. And it shows how far we've come in the past couple of years. Now, liquid nitrogen probably actually – it doesn't help freeze-thaw stabilize some things, but I know that it does prevent other things from getting damaged by freezing. I haven't done a lot of testing with liquid nitrogen freeze-thawing. Liquid nitrogen will preserve the quality. You're going to get a lot less drip loss out of foods that are frozen with liquid nitrogen. If you're going to freeze something with liquid nitrogen and you think it's going to become too brittle, one way to do it best – and I learned this from someone who basically works in a cow semen operation – you want to suspend the food above the liquid nitrogen, just above the liquid nitrogen, for a number of minutes to pre-freeze it before it becomes hyper-brittle, and then you can immerse it in the liquid nitrogen, and you're going to get a very nicely frozen product. But I assume that this is not what you mean.
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+[17:12,520] Things like – so the question he's saying, should he add things to his sauces like gelatin, agar, starches, and fats to make them more freeze-thaw-stable? Gelatin is not freeze-thaw-stable, and neither is agar. In fact, we use both of those things – we use the fact that they're not freeze-thaw-stable when we're clarifying juices. We basically freeze them, and then when they thaw, they weep fluid quite readily, and we use that fact to clarify things. So those don't work. In general, what you want to add to increase freeze-thaw stability are thickeners. Thickeners like locust bean gum. Thickeners like xanthan gum. So something that basically holds together but has a tendency to weep a little bit or break a little bit, you know, a little bit like under a percent of locust bean. Locust bean has to be heated, of course. Guar, but guar tastes kind of bad unless you have the really nice guar made by TIC gums, the flavor-free guar. A little bit of xanthan also acts as a stabilizer. It's going to stop things from weeping out. There are starches that will help. I don't happen to know what they are. I didn't have a chance to research them before I came over, but in general, you move towards some sort of a thickener to help stabilize a situation, especially a gel. If you want to make a gel more freeze-thaw stable, you're going to use some sort of thickener, like I say, like locust bean, like guar, like xanthan.
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+[18:47,880] Now, let me think. I'm trying to see the other questions. I'm not exactly sure. He's saying sauces like whole vegetables roasted, but I'm not exactly sure what the freeze-thaw problem with that is. If it's weeping because of texture being broken down, then the best way to make sure that you freeze and thaw those nicely is to use very, very rapid freezing. And the best way to do that is, of course, liquid nitrogen. Barring that, you can make an ice slush with about 25% salt by weight with ice. Make a slush with that, put your foods in a bag, and then immerse them in a slush. It's going to freeze them very quickly with very small ice crystals, and it's going to preserve the flavor in those kinds of things. Now, he says, on the flip side, what's a good way to thaw these ingredients? Thawing is actually a really interesting problem. When you, it's easier, believe this, it's easier to freeze something quickly than it is to thaw, and here's why.
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+[19:42,020] Ice is actually a much better heat conductor than water. Much better. The only reason you think water is a much better conductor of heat, right, is that you can move around. Inside your food, the water can't move around, so it's not as good a conductor as ice is. So, once something starts freezing in the freezer, the outside becomes ice, it now becomes a very good conductor. Now, it's easier for the inside to freeze. When you're thawing, the outside thaws first. Now, it's water. Now, it's harder to conduct the heat in. It also takes more energy to heat ice than it does to heat water, and so it actually takes longer to thaw something than it does to freeze it. If you want to speed thawing, obviously, the best way to do it is to, if you want it to be fast, is to put it in a bag and then put it in running water. Inside a bag, in running water, ideal. It's going to thaw it out. It's not going to, it's going to be fairly gentle, assuming you're going to use it right away, and it's going to be fairly quick. I mean, that's the fastest way, you know, that we know of. I haven't experimented a lot. People used to sell thawing trays that were basically big blocks of aluminum, and that aluminum would just, you know, draw the heat away from the food, but I don't know whether they're any better or worse than just putting something, probably worse, than just putting something in running water inside of a bag, because that way you're wicking heat away from all sides, not just from the side with the metal block. Another question he has is, he really loves habaneros, as do we, habanero peppers. We're, until very recently, the hottest peppers kind of known. They've since been superseded by a couple other peppers called the ghost peppers, but those peppers, to my, I've never had a fresh ghost pepper, but to me, nothing beats the flavor and the amazing floral aroma of habanero peppers, and Greg apparently agrees with us. He says, I do not like the heat they bring, because most people are overwhelmed, but he loves the floral, delicious floral aspects of the pepper. Now, he says he's developed, basically, a surgical method for lowering the heat, presumably by removing the interior portion of the veins and seeds, and, you know, the very interior portion of the skin on the inside, but he says it's moderately labor intensive, and no one would do it in bulk, and I agree. That sounds like a huge pain in the butt, and I know from a lot of experience with him in the kitchen that, when you deal with him a lot, everything gets contaminated, and people get pissed, and they start hacking and wheezing all over the kitchen, because it's just horrible. Could there be some low or mid-temperature way to dissolve and move the capsaicin out? Capsaicin is what makes things hot. Out of the picture while preserving the enchanting floral nature of the pepper. No vodka, no rotovap. Okay, maybe vodka, but still no rotovap. Well, Greg, you're killing me here, because the rotovap is the primo way to do this. I don't know. You might be able to do regular distillation without a rotovap. I mean, you could try just macerating or grinding the peppers in vodka, and then doing a simple stovetop distillation with, you know, just with a bowl of ice, you know, you'd look up anything on the internet, any site on simple stovetop distillation. You just need a pot, some ice, and a bowl. Now, the downside is, is that this is going to happen upwards of, you know, 80 degrees or so Celsius, whereas I can do it down at like 40 Celsius. Now, I don't know for a fact how much those amazing floral aromas are going to be affected by that higher heat, but, you know, I would love it if you would try it and then tell us.
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+[23:22,540] I don't, just soaking in vodka, like the vodka sucks that heat up. Now, perhaps the alcohol preferentially soaks up the capsaicin, in which case you might be able to use the peppers slightly de-heated after you do it, but I don't think you're going to preferentially take the capsaicin as opposed to those floral aromas. I think you're going to lose a little bit of both.
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+[23:45,180] He suggests maybe using Peelzyme, which is an enzyme that we use to break down the tissue. Unfortunately, Peelzyme breaks down the actual flesh tissue of peppers and turns them to mush. And so, I don't think that that's going to help. I don't, and he says possibly that in conjunction with an oleophilic, something that's going to bond to fats. That's a possibility, but I just, I haven't tested it, so I can't say whether it's going to work or not, but it is something that I will look into more. And if you have any ideas, Greg, I encourage you to please write or call us and give us some good ideas. Right, Nastasha? Yes. That's something we're interested in. Okay. Sorry, I couldn't be more help on that. Here's another one I can't be more help on. Someone says, do we have any comments on the AeroPress type coffee filtration? The AeroPress type coffee maker, and the question is like, how does it, what does it taste like? The, you know, how does it, you know, the flavor, what's the acid balance, blah, blah, blah.
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+[24:45,500] Unfortunately, Paul wrote in that. Unfortunately, Paul, I have not used the AeroPress. I have good friends who have done a lot of work with him. I have some calls into Jeffrey Steingarten, but he's even harder to get in touch with than I am. He's like the only person in the world harder to get in touch with. He answers his phone less than I do, and I couldn't, he's a big advocate, so I wanted to ask what he thought. For those of you that don't know the AeroPress, it was designed, I think, by the same, what's the name of that Frisbee, Nastasha, with the hole in the middle that flies for like a million yards? Is it the AeroB, is that it? I don't know. AeroB? I don't know. You know what I'm talking about? No. Anyway, I think it was designed by the same fellow that did the AeroB, I believe, and it's basically a cylinder with a filter in it and a piston. You put the coffee in the hot water, you push the piston down, it provides some amount of pressure, and then forces it out. The main thing is it's supposed to make delicious coffee, and it's supposed to, it's cheap, and you can carry it wherever you want to go.
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+[25:42,840] The reason I haven't experimented with it is that although it is a pressurized coffee system, it doesn't generate 135 or so PSI, like eight, nine bar, which is what you need to make espresso.
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+[25:56,740] And this is not because I'm a snob at all, but basically I only drink espresso, and I drink like a billion, I drink a billion cups of it a day. And for years I've had, just because I'm like this, I went on eBay and actually to a restaurant auction. I went to a restaurant auction once, I bought a, the first espresso machine I owned was a two-group Ranchilio restaurant machine from a restaurant auction where the restaurant has been shut down by the drug enforcement agency because they were also dealing drugs out of the restaurant. When the drug enforcement agency shuts down your restaurant, what they do is they walk up and they put a padlock on the door, and then they unplug all the lights, right? Well, actually they just flip the circuit breaker, and then all the food just sits there and rots in your fridge until they get around to figuring out what the hell they're going to do. Well, this place was in somewhere, you know, in the 150s, 160s somewhere near Broadway, and they just let it rot for like a year or, you know, eight months a year, and then they had a restaurant auction. And so, you know, I showed up at the restaurant auction, and when they opened the door, the aroma was so, actually, aroma, the miasmal stench was so overwhelming that, you know, literally like seasoned veterans of restaurants were running out of there. And to me, I was like, hey, this is great news. This is awesome, because what it means is, is that no one is going to bid on this crap. I mean, no one is going to bid on this crap, because no one can even stand in the room with this, you know, like all the Cuban sandwich rolls were still there, all desiccated and half eaten. Like, you would have like a bun, and then a mouse that was eating the bun that had died, and then the mouse had in turn been eaten by whatever else was in there. I mean, it was horrible, horrible. But tell them how you got it home. Well, another guy was bidding there. Another guy who, like, you know, he actually, like, literally was a crack dealer at one point, and decided he was going to, you know, go legit, and had started a, was starting a downtown restaurant, you know, like a food cart, and he was buying stuff. And, you know, I paid him $20 to drive me home, and then I left the espresso pump in his car, and I had to go out and find him. And he was like, who the hell's calling me? Anyway, whatever. I got this machine for, almost for nothing, but I had to disassemble it and boil it, every single part of it, and reconstruct it. I learned a lot about espresso machines. But the, that's a long way of saying that I've had a commercial espresso machine for a long time, and so I haven't necessarily investigated other techniques for making coffee, and I apologize that I have a very small amount of knowledge on the AeroPress coffee system. But, from what I hear, it's pretty good. That's what I hear. And so, I'm sure that, and you've now made me feel bad that I haven't experimented with it, and I don't know what it, it costs some, like, minimal amount of money, I think. So, now, maybe I'll just go buy one and play with it, or at least maybe get Steingarten to call me back and have him tell me why it's so great. Next segment, I promise, I will talk about the weird meats that we ate. You're listening to Cooking Issues on Heritage Radio Network. Call in your questions at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. And this is Cooking Issues, and I am David Arnold.
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+[29:09,120] Bad, bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey, made me lose my happy home. When I left home this morning, I promised I would think.
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+[29:33,940] To stay real straight and sober, to stay real straight and sober, I swore I wouldn't drink. Bad, bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey, bad, bad whiskey, made me lose my happy home. I passed up all the pool halls, gave the boys a slip. Before the night was over, I started in to say that... You are listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. I am Dave Arnold, and we are here to answer your cooking issues, whether they come in via email or via telephone. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So, we ran an interesting experiment last week, where we ordered a whole bunch of odd meats from a butcher in Chicago. I'm going to ruin the name. What is it, Nastasha? It's like... Zeimer. Zeimer. C-Z-I-M-E-R. Okay. And so, these guys, for generations, I think since, you know, the teens, since like 19... 19. 19, so 1914, some of that. These guys have been dealing in kind of odd, odd meats. Now, one of the strange things... Not strange things. America used to be known as kind of the game food capital of the world. We just had so much of it, you know, early on. And all of it was legal to sell. So, if you go back and you look on the web at something called the Markets Assistant, and it was basically a guide to the New York markets that was written both before and after and around the Civil War, you know, you'll see... And it's available on Google Books. And the guy at the front looks like Bill the Butcher Pool from Gangs of New York. It's kind of cool. But the list of foods that was available to purchase in markets, even in New York City, was shattering, amazing. I mean, just the different types of meats. And the reason was, is that anything that you killed, shot, you know, caught, whatever, was fair game. There were no rules. There were no regulations. A combination of things has caused that to not be the case anymore. One is sanitary regulations. So, things have to be slaughtered in, basically, in approved slaughterhouses now. So, that cuts down the amount of things that you can do. And you're also not allowed to sell foods that you hunt, game that you hunt. And that's due to, you know, the fact that we were just killing too damn much. And to keep the animals, you know, to keep a good stock of animals, there was conservation laws put on them. Also, specifically things like birds that you used to be able to shoot any damn thing. It's like the birds that you're allowed to kill now are very, very highly regulated. And, like, one of the ones I really want to actually eat is this thing called the bobble ink. This is off topic. I don't care. The bobble ink is this tiny bird. Okay, listen. Many of the viewers out there are viewers. Many of the listeners out there are familiar with the ortolan. The ortolan is the famous French bird that you eat bones and all. They roast it whole. And you're supposed to put a napkin over it. Some people say to preserve the aroma. Some people say to hide from God. And these ortolan are basically little birds and they go on a long migration. And somewhere, you know, near the beginning, in the middle of the migration, they stop by in the Mediterranean area in France and they gorge because they need to get a lot of energy and they get very fat so that they can fly all the way south, right? It's a passerine type of bird. It's bird migration. So what they've done for centuries is catch these birds and then fatten them specifically so that they're little plump, fat, little, juicy morsels. They then, okay, sounds awful. This part's awful. Then they usually suffocate them in liquor and then roast them whole. So this is the famous ortolan that's now illegal. And, by the way, fattening things like this has a long, long, long history. It goes back to the Romans and probably before the Romans where they used to fatten animals like fig peckers and dormus and things like that, fatten them specifically for the kitchen, catching them and fatten them. Okay. Now, the ortolan is not the only bird like this. There are two other well-known to the cultures that do them migration birds like that that get super fat and get caught and get eaten. One's in China, and I forget the name of it. It's like the yellow-breasted patty swallow or something like that in English. I forget the name of it. But the other one is the bobolink, which used to be known as the rice bird. And when we used to grow a lot of rice in South Carolina all the way up until the early part of last century,
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+[34:06,740] the migration of these birds would go down. They'd see all the rice. And these flocks, like basically this huge, huge migrating flocks would go down, and they would eat a crap load of rice, get amazingly fat. But because they were hurting the rice crop and because apparently they were incredibly delicious, you'd basically just fire these small-shot shotguns into the air, and the birds would just fall like rain around you, and you'd pick them up, and they were supposedly the best thing in the world. They were called rice birds.
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+[34:33,720] Anyway, you used to be able to get those. And I called every single country. The commission's involved in every single country in the migration from here all the way down to South America to see whether any of them allowed me to eat that bird, and they didn't. Anyways, it's just a rant on the bobolink. Okay, back to the weird meats that we were eating. So this place gets all these weird meats that are typically now unavailable, but maybe would have been available before all of these laws, which, by the way, the laws are good. I'm not saying the laws are bad. Now, the meats we got were, we got lion meat, and the lion is obtained. I think I said last week the lion is obtained because lions that aren't wanted anymore by morons who have them as pets or breeding programs, they're not wanted anymore. They give them up, and typically they can't be placed again. They're slaughtered for their fur, and then the meat becomes a byproduct. We had beaver, and I don't really know, like why, I don't know what happened with the beaver. I don't know what the deal is with that.
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+[35:35,220] But we had black bear, probably a similar situation to the lion. We had yak, which I believe was actually farmed for this purpose. What else did we have? A whole raccoon. We had a whole raccoon, and we had one other, didn't we? Or is that it? I think that's it. That's it? Okay. So I'm here to tell you what this stuff tasted like. Lion was quite interesting. Lion tastes like pork, right? Pork chop. Tastes like pork chop. A little bit more savory. It's interesting. It's a pork-based flavor with kind of a unique savory thing, probably due to the fact that it's a carnivore. It eats only meat, and we very rarely eat carnivores. So I liked the lion a lot. It was an older animal. We cooked it at 50 – no. Yeah, what did I cook it at? 60. I cooked it at 60 degrees Celsius for only – it felt really tender, so I only cooked it for an hour or two, and it was quite tough. I think we needed to cook it a lot longer to kind of – because it didn't have a lot of, like, visible connected tissue, but since it was so old, it was kind of tough. So next time I cook lion, I think I'm going to cook it for a good maybe 10 hours at 60 Celsius or thereabouts. It was good. It was very good. We did – I might have done 57. I wish I could remember. I've got to go look at my numbers. Bear was extremely dark, black almost, and also felt very, very tender before it was cooked. It felt very soft. We cooked it at 57, I believe, because it looked like a steak, so I wanted to cook it at, like, a steak level, also for about an hour, and it was also tough, but it had a really kind of, like, aftertaste, like, really kind of, to me, bloody mineral aftertaste that I didn't really enjoy. You didn't like the bear, did you? I didn't try it. I was scared of the trichinosis. I told you that the trichinosis was going to be killed by that keti procedure. We looked it up. We know the, like, the thermal death curse for trichinosis. I told you we killed all the trichinosis in that thing. I was still – I had food poisoning that week. Oh, jeez. She – okay, so she reads trichinosis about it, and she thinks she has trichinosis. I'm like, you don't. Your body's not full of worms. I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax. Whatever. I'm not going to get into it. I didn't enjoy the bear that much.
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+[37:41,420] Some people say it tastes greasy. It didn't taste greasy. It just had kind of a weird metallic aftertaste for me. The raccoon was a big disappointment. I cooked that raccoon – probably I need to cook it a lot longer and at a higher temperature. I cooked it only for four or five hours at 60. Lion, by the way, I remember now. I cooked it at 57. The raccoon I cooked at 60 for, like, four and a half hours because I thought it was – but just because it was small doesn't mean it was – it's young, though. So it was tough. It doesn't have that much meat on it. In the future, I would cook it to a much higher temperature for a much longer time, like probably 63, 62, 63 degrees for, like, 24 hours, and then shred it, like, for a stew. But it had a lot of fat on it. It really freaked people out in any way. You know, it wasn't nearly as delicious as the guinea pigs that I've cooked from South America, which, you know, I think are delicious. I'm willing to give raccoon another chance, but the raccoon I had very high hopes for, and I was disappointed. Now, on the positive side, that beaver was delicious. So there's beaver tail, which isn't actually the flapper, and then there's the flapper. The beaver tail we cooked for 24 hours at 60 Celsius, and it was just delicious. It had a really interesting woody aroma that, you know, I've never really had before in a piece of meat. We had soaked it in a little bit of vinegar water before we cooked it, because every recipe basically tells you to do that. So we did that, and then we salted it a little bit, let it sit, and then put it in a bag, cooked it in butter at 60 for 24 hours, and then shredded it to tail meat, and just, just fantastic. I loved that beaver. That beaver was delicious, right? Hey, come on now, Stasi.
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+[39:22,820] Get your mind out of the gutter. It was like a woody pulled pork. Yeah, it was very good. Very, very good. The flapper, which is the actual tail part, though, is mainly fat and skin, and we cooked that at a very, we skinned one first, and then we cooked another one whole after we had scrubbed it.
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+[39:38,620] We cooked those at a high temperature, like 80 Celsius or so, for a couple of hours, and they rendered out, but they were just kind of, I fried them afterwards, and they got kind of puffy and crispy on the outside, but there was just kind of too much fat on the inside, and we ate them last. Really what needs to happen, we've got to run some more experiments, is to cook them, then take the fat out, use it for another preparation, and then use the skin, dehydrate it, and puff it like a chicharron. So, you know, in the future, you will be having from us, from Cooking Issues team, probably beaver flapper chicharron, because I think it's going to be good. It will. Yeah, yeah, Stasi's having a tough time keeping it together here in the room. And the last one, also really, really delicious, was the yak. Now, the yak, we did cook for overnight, the same amount as we, actually, no, shoot, I keep on getting my stuff wrong. I cooked the yak at 57 for a whole day, for 24 hours, or for overnight, rather, and the beaver I actually cooked for two days, 48 hours at 60. I cooked it just like I cook a short rib. Okay. Excuse me, people. Sorry about that. So, but the yak, we cooked overnight, because my theory was that it was kind of, you know, maybe not quite as tough as a short rib was going to be, and so a short rib, if you cook it for a full day at 60, for 24 hours at 60 degrees Celsius, comes out with a texture of, like, a skirt steak, and so that's what I was shooting for. So, we did that with a yak, and the yak was just really savory and delicious. The odd thing was is that a lot of us detected a little bit of a duck kind of a note. And tuna. Duck and tuna, but it was just, I thought it was really good. And the really interesting thing about these is that these animals are all old animals, and so, you know, a bunch of friends of mine, like Steingarten, who won't call me back, and Harold McGee, have gone over to Europe, where they have a culture of eating older, older animals for the flavor, and you notice the flavor is really, really good. So, I really, I want to do a lot more experimenting with cooking older animals. We just got to figure out, figure out a way to get them. So, if you want, I believe there is probably time for one more caller, if you are near a phone. Call in at 7-1. Oh, we have one. Oh, we have a caller in? All right, so there's probably no more time for other callers. Hello? Hello? Hi. Hi. Name's Jason. Hey, Jason. How you doing? All right. Great.
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+[42:03,880] I recently became obsessed with farro. Ah. I just don't know how to cook it right. So, what's happening to it? Well, so, my obsession began at a restaurant that served a farro salad, and it was just nice, and it's perfectly cooked like rice, and I've been cooking it at a ratio of three parts water to one part farro for about 50 minutes, and it just doesn't puff up as nicely. So, I'm wondering whether I should toast it initially, or if I should soak it, or what. Well, the soaking will probably help. I'm trying to remember. I had done a lot of cooking, done some cooking with it, rather, a number of years ago. I haven't cooked it recently. What kind of equipment do you have? Do you have a rice cooker? No, just a pan. Yeah. A rice cooker might help, and also, a lot of times when I want to cook tough grains that have a real tough coat on them, like farro does, aside from any initial soaking, that I do, sometimes I'll reach for the pressure cooker, because the pressure cooker does a really good job of pushing the liquid into those kind of sea coats, but those, the farro can take a long time. Have you cooked that with Cesare, Nostalgia? Yeah, I can't remember how. What's the, I don't know. Cooked it for longer than 50 minutes? I don't know. I don't want to say something. It's not true. I don't want to say something that's not true, but yeah, I've seen him cook it. Oh, Jesus. Say it, and I'll try it, and I'll call back and let you know if it's true or not. All right, yeah, all right. We'll do some research, too. We'll call Cesare. Oh, geez, Nostalgia's not willing to put it. I'll call Cesare. Well, text Cesare now. See if you can get it while you're going. But if you don't, a rice cooker, they're good because they're not going to scorch it while you're going, so you don't have to watch it as carefully, and they're going to get the water, and eventually, and, you know, on a brown rice setting.
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+[43:50,320] Or, you know, I would definitely reach for the pressure cooker, and a pressure cooker is a lot easier because a pressure cooker, you just cook it for, like, you know, half hour in a pressure cooker, and you know it's going to be done. And that's how I cook similar grains. Like, I'll do, I cook rye berries that way in a pressure cooker, so we do it, and I assume it's going to cook fairly similar to a rye berry. So to get a rye berry nice and fluffy, you know, you cook it in the pressure cooker from anywhere from 30 to 40 minutes in excess liquid. You also might want to use excess liquid. Are you, you know, was it absorbing all the liquid? It started to, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's worth the end. Yeah, so things like that that are tough, you might want to use excess liquid. I don't know that you're going to dilute the flavor that much, and then the liquid that you have left over, you could reduce down and use for something else. So that, you know, a lot of times those things, you know, once you start getting in a situation where it's liquid pour in the pan, then you start running into problems where you're actually going to start maybe losing water again out of the outside. The outside's going to harden up. I would keep it, I would keep them in liquid while they're, while they're cooking, because that's definitely how I do it in a, in a pressure cooker situation. I don't know if that's going to help. Whether you, have you tried that yet? I don't own a pressure cooker. No, no, I meant keeping, keeping excess liquid. Well, if, if water starts to run out, I'll, I'll just add some, some more water. And still it's not getting fluffy, huh? Yeah, it's not. All right, listen. So Cesare Casella is the Dean of Italian Studies at the, uh, at the school. And the man cooks farro all day, every day. And so what's, what's going to happen is I'm going to, I'm going to ask, uh, I promise Stasi, make sure I don't forget to do this. I just texted him. Okay. We texted Cesare Casella and I'm going to ask, uh, Louis DiPaolo from DiPaolo, because I buy most of my farro from DiPaolo's here in New York City. Yeah, I love, I love DiPaolo's. Uh, and so. I think it says here he cooks it risotto style. Oh.
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+[45:41,400] Okay, so if he cooks it risotto style, then he probably does do an initial fry of the grains. Mm-hmm. Um, although I don't know what that's going to do from a, from a texture standpoint, and then just keeps adding liquid the entire time while he's stirring until it absorbs enough. Um, have you tried that one? Have you tried it basically just like it's a risotto? But it's going to take a lot longer. I haven't. That seems like it would take a lot longer. Oh, a whole lot longer. Yeah. I mean, a whole, whole lot longer. I mean, got kids at home. Yeah, I know what that's like. You know what though? So you have, you have kids at home. Listen, consider, not just for the far out, consider buying a pressure cooker. Pressure cooker is like a genius piece of equipment. Um, I don't know if you have the room for it in your kitchen or if, you know, you're anti-pressure cooker, but. You know, not at all. I'm very much pro-pressure cookers. Just don't have the means to buy one. Oh, yeah. You guys wouldn't happen to have an extra one just lying around collecting dust with you? And we, we kind of ripped through them because they use them on the menu, but look, so, you know, if you've, on our blog, uh, we, we don't technically recommend any. I use Kuhn Recon and Kuhn Recon's are really expensive, but, you know, for a lot of applications that cheaper pressure cookers, they, they do a serviceable job for, especially for things like, you know, like, uh, grains like this that you want to cook, cook quickly. Um, the advantage of them also is in the summertime, they're not going to heat up your kitchen very much. Um, because as soon as they come up to pressure, you can turn the temperature down. Uh, I mean, turn not the temperature, sorry, turn the, uh, the heat input down. And so they're actually fairly efficient cooking vessels, um, um, to, you know, to just to stop your, you know, cut your air conditioning bills down a little bit in, in the summertime. Um, I wish I had the recipe in my head. Anyway, we have texted the appropriate people and Nastasha, your job is to make sure that the answer is put up into the forum section of the blog. I will. We should, I'm going to start a separate thing in the forum section. It's just like radio, radio show answers. It's a great idea. Yeah. All right. So I'll do that for you and that'll be there within, within the week. And I apologize that I didn't answer your question to. I think you've done a great job at, uh, at attempting to. All right. Thanks so much. And I think you did actually answer it. I'll, I'll try to buy a pressure cooker. All right. I appreciate it. Thanks for calling. No problem. All right. And, uh, oh yeah. Sorry. So as we leave, there is still room, uh, in tomorrow, Wednesday, July, what is that? 28th. Uh, at the French Culinary Institute downtown, come do high tech cocktails, uh, with, uh, me, uh, and with Nils Norin. We're going to do liquid nitrogen, rotary, rotary evaporation. We'll teach you how to clarify lime juice using agar at home. Uh, we're going to do three, it was six cocktails really, but three different ones done in a home friendly way and then done in a tech, not plus, but still using technology and then in a technology intensive way. And so you could taste the difference and see kind of what we do with all the fancy equipment and what you can do at home. That's tomorrow at the French Culinary at 6 p.m. I think it's six to eight, six to eight or something like that. And there's going to be burgers and fries. Burgers, fries, and liquor. What could be better? You're listening to Cooking Issues on the Heritage Radio Network. This week brought to you by Fairway, like no other market.
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+[48:54,740] Vicious, vicious, vicious, fucker. Oh, you daddy that got me on this corner and I don't know where I'm at.
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